# The end of the line for Frequent Flyer Programs?



## x3 skier (Apr 2, 2013)

IMO, the days of FF miles being a great benefit are over. Just about every airline has finally recognized they likely can make more money selling seats than retaining customers with FF programs. Southwest, Delta, BA, you name it, changes have reduced the value of miles. You can still make them work but it is a real challenge. 

It was great while it lasted and I enjoyed it immensely for years but the reality is the vast majority of the public wants cheap airfare more than anything else. Why else is Spirit so profitable with lousy customer relations and fees for everything?

To deliver that, FF programs are being rapidly being devalued since every "free" seat an airline gives away means less revenue. In the old days, high prices allowed them to make money (or at least lose less money) while giving away FF seats but since the profit per seat in now much less, they need to sell more seats and give away fewer. 

I am using my miles as fast as I can before they become totally worthless. 

I suggest you take what you can get before it is too late.

Cheers


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## Passepartout (Apr 2, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> I am using my miles as fast as I can before they become totally worthless.
> 
> I suggest you take what you can get before it is too late.



That is IF you can figure out how to get any benefit from them. We have (+-) 150,000 SkyPesos and whenever we look for flights or even upgrades there doesn't seem to be anything on a route we want.


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## x3 skier (Apr 2, 2013)

Passepartout said:


> That is IF you can figure out how to get any benefit from them. We have (+-) 150,000 SkyPesos and whenever we look for flights or even upgrades there doesn't seem to be anything on a route we want.



My best luck with both DL and AA lately has involved an extra day or two on either end of the trip. Most recently, I booked a 1st Class ticket ORD LHR ORD ticket on AA for 125K to use our week at the Allen House. I used Avios (+$5) to get to ORD from DAY but had to stay overnight in Chicago on the return since I had to go via MIA and got to ORD to late to make a connection. 

Same sort of thing last year on DL where my 100K Business class DAY LHR AMS DAY ticket involved an overnight in AMS and a cheap flight LHR AMS. 

It takes work but you can use them.

I also have avoided transferring my AMEX points to airlines like I used to since you can actually buy things with them. While they are usually not the best value, if you can't get what you want via FF Tix, at least you can get something. 

Cheers


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## SMHarman (Apr 2, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> IMO, the days of FF miles being a great benefit are over. Just about every airline has finally recognized they likely can make more money selling seats than retaining customers with FF programs. Southwest, Delta, BA, you name it, changes have reduced the value of miles. You can still make them work but it is a real challenge.
> 
> It was great while it lasted and I enjoyed it immensely for years but the reality is the vast majority of the public wants cheap airfare more than anything else.
> 
> ...


Not really, the airlines will never kill them off, they make too much money selling miles to credit card companies and the like.

Many still think 25,000 miles for a $300 seat is great value and will rave about it.   Only those that have been getting 4c/mile out of the programs will start to complain.

True Frequent Fliers will be kept sweet with bonus deals that maintain the value of the currency.  Look at the BA deal at the moment TATL gets a 20k bonus each time and after 5x you get another 100k bonus.


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 2, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> IMO, the days of FF miles being a great benefit are over. Just about every airline has finally recognized they likely can make more money selling seats than retaining customers with FF programs. Southwest, Delta, BA, you name it, changes have reduced the value of miles. You can still make them work but it is a real challenge.
> 
> It was great while it lasted and I enjoyed it immensely for years but the reality is the vast majority of the public wants cheap airfare more than anything else. Why else is Spirit so profitable with lousy customer relations and fees for everything?
> 
> ...



I don't think so.   I took about 5-7 years off from even thinking about or using my FF miles even with about 500,000 points in my account and just started getting into it again this past year when I became a 1M miler on United.   

I like the other features of Premier Gold more than I like free travel.  I really like the free first class upgrades I am getting about 30% of the time.  More importantly, I love not having to pay baggage fees and being able to get an economy plus seat at time of booking.

Since I get a 50% bonus miles, the above features provide me with an additional incentive to fly United.  The above features are worth me paying $100-200 more per ticket than on a cheap airline.  I also am deciding to keep my United/Chase Explorer card since I will probably put about $50-75k on it per year.

Here is what I used points for in the last 6 months:

4 roundtrip tickets to Barcelona with a stopover in London for this summer.   All saver fares.  60000 points each for 240,000 points total.

2 round trip tickets for my son to come home for his summer internship and next Christmas vacation.   All legs saver except the Dec 21 leg which was at standard fare.  100,000 points. Since these ressies were booked on my account, I was able to book him into economy plus.

1 round trip first class trip to Florida on saver fare.  80000 points.

Lastly, as a Premier Gold.  If there is a seat available on the plane, I can book it for a standard award fare.   Also, there is greater availability for saver fares for Gold members.  When I first checked availability for my son's trip, his preferred travel dates were not available.  Then, I logged into my account and voila, his dates were available.

I am once again a huge fan of the United Mileage Plus program.   The rumors of its demise are greatly exaggerated.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Apr 2, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> IMO, the days of FF miles being a great benefit are over. Just about every airline has finally recognized they likely can make more money selling seats than retaining customers with FF programs. Southwest, Delta, BA, you name it, changes have reduced the value of miles. You can still make them work but it is a real challenge.
> 
> It was great while it lasted and I enjoyed it immensely for years but the reality is the vast majority of the public wants cheap airfare more than anything else. Why else is Spirit so profitable with lousy customer relations and fees for everything?
> 
> ...


Your analysis is far too simplistic.

Airlines can afford to "give away" free seats in exchange for being able to sell other seats at higher than base fare and being able to sell seats that would otherwise be empty.  IOW - they intend and design the programs to appeal to frequent travelers, especially business travelers.  They also want those travelers to book preferentially on their airline even when they might not have the lowest fares to the destinations.  

I think that what you are seeing - and reacting to - is a devaluation of miles generated by casual fliers who don't travel much, who don't have significant loyalty to an airline, and who rack up miles via non-flying options.  

Airlines will continue to maintain value in the programs for people who generate their miles via actual flights on the airline, and via purchasing higher fare tickets.


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## buzglyd (Apr 2, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> I don't think so.   I took about 5-7 years off from even thinking about or using my FF miles even with about 500,000 points in my account and just started getting into it again this past year when I became a 1M miler on United.
> 
> I like the other features of Premier Gold more than I like free travel.  I really like the free first class upgrades I am getting about 30% of the time.  More importantly, I love not having to pay baggage fees and being able to get an economy plus seat at time of booking.
> 
> ...



Good to hear. My lifetime miles on United are at 730,000. I still have a ways to go. 

I still have the "good" credit card from the Continental days. Earn Elite miles and United club perks. 

I still miss Continetal though. I was upgraded about 90% of the time. Now about 30% as you say. 

Plus, the first class to Europe sales were awesome back then. Round trip in Business First for about $2200 and double Elite qualifying miles.


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 2, 2013)

buzglyd said:


> Good to hear. My lifetime miles on United are at 730,000. I still have a ways to go.
> 
> I still have the "good" credit card from the Continental days. Earn Elite miles and United club perks.
> 
> ...



In the late 90s and early 00s, I used to travel between 75000 and 100,000 miles per year.  I was racking up miles, but I travelled so much that the last thing I wanted to do was get onto another plane.  So, I was giving away a lot of free tickets to friends.  Now that I have to pay for my own tickets, I wish I kept those miles I gave away.   If it weren't for the million miler status, I probably would still be ignoring frequent flyer programs.


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## x3 skier (Apr 2, 2013)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Airlines will continue to maintain value in the programs for people who generate their miles via actual flights on the airline, and via purchasing higher fare tickets.



I am one of those types and I do value the other perks besides free seats. Things like the free bags, although I seldom check any, priority boarding to snag overhead storage, the all too infrequent upgrade to first are still a good thing. 

That said, with load factors in the 85% range and raising of miles required, snagging a free seat sure isn't as easy as it used to be. The devaluation in FF programs I see is in redeeming miles for free trips. Between lower availability, higher miles required and more competition from those who get miles from credit card use etc., I really think the good old days of easily being able to go when and where I want are gone.

The other perks keep me flying AA and DL but free Tix ain't what they used to be. 

Cheers


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## Ken555 (Apr 2, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> It was great while it lasted and I enjoyed it immensely for years but the reality is the vast majority of the public wants cheap airfare more than anything else. Why else is Spirit so profitable with lousy customer relations and fees for everything?



It's a big market. Spirit definitely has a following, but they do not define the market. As others have already said, the Economy Plus type seats are proving successful for the airlines - perhaps because they have already reduced service / space for economy to the point where some will pay more, but not enough for business / first, and so they offer this premium economy option. 

Frequent flyer programs are definitely a game worth playing if you have the time and energy to spend on it, and the desire for almost, but not quite, free travel. Lately it's been the little things that have irritated me with redeeming miles - for instance, US Air charges $50 to reserve an award, even online, yet BA and others do not. So after already "buying" the miles we have to spend more money to actually use them. Of course, in the big picture it doesn't matter to me, but it's irritating nonetheless.


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 2, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> I am one of those types and I do value the other perks besides free seats. Things like the free bags, although I seldom check any, priority boarding to snag overhead storage, the all too infrequent upgrade to first are still a good thing.
> 
> That said, with load factors in the 85% range and raising of miles required, snagging a free seat sure isn't as easy as it used to be. The devaluation in FF programs I see is in redeeming miles for free trips. Between lower availability, higher miles required and more competition from those who get miles from credit card use etc., I really think the good old days of easily being able to go when and where I want are gone.
> 
> ...



This post is different than your original post.  You pretty much declared that you were going to use up all of your frequent flier miles because they were going to become quickly worthless signalling the end of FF programs.  

That is much different than, FF programs are still useful, but they aren't what they used to be.


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## buzglyd (Apr 2, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> In the late 90s and early 00s, I used to travel between 75000 and 100,000 miles per year.  I was racking up miles, but I travelled so much that the last thing I wanted to do was get onto another plane.  So, I was giving away a lot of free tickets to friends.  Now that I have to pay for my own tickets, I wish I kept those miles I gave away.   If it weren't for the million miler status, I probably would still be ignoring frequent flyer programs.



Ditto!

My rear has earned the status.


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## akp (Apr 2, 2013)

*I'm loving it *

I'm late to the party with frequent flyer miles, but as far as I'm concerned, it is a great party!

In the past 2 years, I have:

- flown my family of five RT to Hawaii
- flown my family of five RT to Costa Rica
- flown my family of five RT to Aruba

Scheduled but not yet flown:

- my husband and I are flying in Singapore Air first class to Russia next month
- my family of five is flying to Peru in June (also free tix inter-Peru)

Working on:

- RT tickets in business or first for me and my husband to Maui in Feb 14
- Rt tix for all five of us to Europe Summer 2014

Aside from the first redemption for five to Hawaii, none of these were butt-in-seat miles.  There are TONS of opportunities to earn miles.

I will never have elite status with any airline (except for my trick-based Star Alliance Gold status) because I never pay for tickets unless it is the cheap domestic routes where it makes no sense to redeem miles.

I missed the mint (wouldn't have done it anyway) and pudding stuff, but there are lots and lots of opportunities still.  Some examples:

- Delta miles via paying taxes on Suntrust Debit card
- AA miles via BankDirect account.  (if you're interested, pm me for a referral and we both get extra miles.)  You forgo the less than 1% interest currently being offered but depending on your tax bracket it can be well worth it.
- Credit card signup bonuses are huge
- I rarely purchase anything that isn't bonused at 2 miles per dollar or greater. 
- If you really want to get crazy into miles production, look into Bluebird / Vanilla Reload.  You can pay college tuition, taxes, mortgage, etc.  

I'm sure if I'd lived through the glory days, I'd be bummed, too.  But I've got plenty of free travel on the table for now!

Anita


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## x3 skier (Apr 2, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> This post is different than your original post.  You pretty much declared that you were going to use up all of your frequent flier miles because they were going to become quickly worthless signalling the end of FF programs.
> 
> That is much different than, FF programs are still useful, but they aren't what they used to be.



Sorry from the confusion. My point was meant to be that *reasonable* options for redemption for free tickets is *approaching* an impossible task. The rest of FF programs are still worth it for those like me who value the other aspects. A RT Business Class Ticket to Europe for 325000 miles is a lot different than one for 100000 miles which is why I use them up as fast as I can like many on FlyerTalk. I can still get some reasonable redemptions but in the good old days, it was a no brainer compared the contortions I go thru now. 

Cheers


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## MuranoJo (Apr 2, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> In the late 90s and early 00s, I used to travel between 75000 and 100,000 miles per year.  I was racking up miles, but I travelled so much that the last thing I wanted to do was get onto another plane.  So, I was giving away a lot of free tickets to friends.  Now that I have to pay for my own tickets, I wish I kept those miles I gave away.   If it weren't for the million miler status, I probably would still be ignoring frequent flyer programs.



Ditto again.

I gave away numerous trips to HI for friends, as well as mainland and some first class gifts thrown in as well.  I just didn't have the time to use all the miles for fun when I was working, plus I was burned out on flying.

Now that I've retired, it sure would be nice to still have them.  (And at times I wondered if the recipients really understood the 'cost' of those free tickets.)


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## Carolinian (Apr 3, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> Not really, the airlines will never kill them off, they make too much money selling miles to credit card companies and the like.
> 
> Many still think 25,000 miles for a $300 seat is great value and will rave about it.   Only those that have been getting 4c/mile out of the programs will start to complain.
> 
> True Frequent Fliers will be kept sweet with bonus deals that maintain the value of the currency.  Look at the BA deal at the moment TATL gets a 20k bonus each time and after 5x you get another 100k bonus.



You have hit the nail on the head.  Airlines make major bucks selling the miles to banks and others.  If they make the programs useless for passengers, then they will kill the golden goose with the banks.

Actually, I kind of like a program that Wizz Air has to encourage loyalty.  You have to pay to join it, but then you get a discount on every seat you buy.  The tickets I bought when I signed up paid the cost to join on the savings, and then the rest of the year, I saved with every ticket.  The Wizz Air credit cards, availible through Hungarian and Romanian banks, also give a discount on ticket fees.  This is an interesting model for an LCC ff plan.


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## Carolinian (Apr 3, 2013)

buzglyd said:


> Good to hear. My lifetime miles on United are at 730,000. I still have a ways to go.
> 
> I still have the "good" credit card from the Continental days. Earn Elite miles and United club perks.
> 
> ...



I am getting a great upgrade percentage with AA, and the award seats I have looked for, I have found with them.  Still, NW was the best, and I really miss them.  Their DC9's and Avros had the highest percentage of 1st class seats of anything flying in the US, so except on the hub to hub routes, it meant almost a guarantee of an upgrade.

The one I miss most is BMI.  Every award seat I asked for I got, including on their Star partners.  I earned 3K miles for hotel stays.  And many intra-Europe routes were 9K R/T with the others being 12K R/T.  TATL was 45K R/T.  This was right up to the BA takeover last year.


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## Smokatoke (Apr 3, 2013)

While I love all the perks of FF and hotels as well, it shows how spoiled of a world we are that we will complain about not getting overly pampered with free stuff just because we chose to travel with a specific brand. How many other places do you expect freebies when you make a purchase? Did you not get the service you wanted when originally paid? So why are you expecting more? 

I am just playing devils advocate here (no flaming intended) as I too have been a complainer about how devalued points are now, but in the end I realize I was provided a service and I shouldnt expect free stuff just because I gave them my business. How many small business owners would be broke giving away free stuff to every customer? Because airlines are huge and make more money means they should be obligated to give free stuff? 

And cant make the argument well I will go to another airline if i dont get enough free stuff, because ultimately if no one gave anything free you would be selective based on pricing and service which you do now already! This is just a semi-rant for me because I have seen far too many ungrateful people complain about what they dont get for free or not getting enough for free, but if it was you having to do the free giving and it was costing your company millions a year, you would probably rethink it too.


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## x3 skier (Apr 3, 2013)

buzglyd said:


> Plus, the first class to Europe sales were awesome back then. Round trip in Business First for about $2200 and double Elite qualifying miles.



For the past few years I have been taking a Thanksgiving weekend trip to Europe. Leave Friday and return Wed or Thur. Prices are around $2200 in Business Class. One of the nice things to do is visit the Christmas Markets. Been to ones in Vienna, Berlin and others. Helps me maintain my status. 

Cheers


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## Carolinian (Apr 3, 2013)

Loyalty often means taking more for a ticket to fly the airline to which you have loyalty or accepting a less convenient schedule.  If the loyalty program was not there to give us that incentive, then we would probably not be buying some of the tickets we buy from that airline, but using a competitor instead.  If the ff programs were not attractive, then the banks and others would not be buying the miles they buy now.  Airlines created ff programs to benefit airlines and as they now exist, they do.  If the bean counters monkey around with them, they may find out down the road that it is a losing proposition, as DL did with the Rob Borden changes, which it later had to reverse (and appropriately, fire Borden) after it took a big kick in the pants financially from those changes.




Smokatoke said:


> While I love all the perks of FF and hotels as well, it shows how spoiled of a world we are that we will complain about not getting overly pampered with free stuff just because we chose to travel with a specific brand. How many other places do you expect freebies when you make a purchase? Did you not get the service you wanted when originally paid? So why are you expecting more?
> 
> I am just playing devils advocate here (no flaming intended) as I too have been a complainer about how devalued points are now, but in the end I realize I was provided a service and I shouldnt expect free stuff just because I gave them my business. How many small business owners would be broke giving away free stuff to every customer? Because airlines are huge and make more money means they should be obligated to give free stuff?
> 
> And cant make the argument well I will go to another airline if i dont get enough free stuff, because ultimately if no one gave anything free you would be selective based on pricing and service which you do now already! This is just a semi-rant for me because I have seen far too many ungrateful people complain about what they dont get for free or not getting enough for free, but if it was you having to do the free giving and it was costing your company millions a year, you would probably rethink it too.


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## Smokatoke (Apr 3, 2013)

Carolinian said:


> If the loyalty program was not there to give us that incentive, then we would probably not be buying some of the tickets we buy from that airline, but using a competitor instead.



Part of my point was you usually always shop for the best price regardless of your status with an airline. I would always pay 300 instead of 500 even if I was triple platinum smiley face with the more expensive. Also as I mentioned if none of the airlines had rewards, you would be price based shopping and customer service like you do anyway, so I dont think its a good argument.

And yes credit cards team up with airlines because they want you to rack up debt with them, so they pitch you on a pile of points which really only equates to one free round trip ticket. Yes there are some perks in the end but my overall point is be happy with the free we get. Not sure how we complain about free when we are still getting a service that we originally paid for...


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 3, 2013)

Smokatoke said:


> Part of my point was you usually always shop for the best price regardless of your status with an airline. I would always pay 300 instead of 500 even if I was triple platinum smiley face with the more expensive. Also as I mentioned if none of the airlines had rewards, you would be price based shopping and customer service like you do anyway, so I dont think its a good argument.
> 
> And yes credit cards team up with airlines because they want you to rack up debt with them, so they pitch you on a pile of points which really only equates to one free round trip ticket. Yes there are some perks in the end but my overall point is be happy with the free we get. Not sure how we complain about free when we are still getting a service that we originally paid for...



I shop for price, but I also assign value to the United Perks.  If a United flight is $1000 and a Hawaiian Airlines flight is $800, I will fly United.

If the United flight is $1400 and the Hawaiian flight is $800, I will fly Hawaiian.


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## Sandy VDH (Apr 3, 2013)

Having earned 2.25 Million miles lifetime on AA and now have earned about 750 Thousand on UA (just moved to Houston about 2 years ago).  I am lifetime Platinum on AA and now 1K on UA.

My earning is primarily by flying (biz class seats to UK for work, domestic flights paid by me in North America, but also my CC bonus and spend.  

I use them when it makes sense.  Not for every flight.  But I look at what the price is for cash vs points to book. 

I usually use my points to fly to Caribbean (coach) or farther a field (Tahaiti, Maldives, Europe) in Biz class. 

I have 125K AA left and I have 500K UA left.  

I hope they do not go away.  In the last 12 months I have booked 4 Reward tickets: Canada/Caribbean SXM (coach class as one ticket over Xmas and NYE), Tahaiti (Biz class), Canada/Belize (coach, 1 ticket over xmas/NYE again), Maldives (Biz class).

I paid for a bunch of flights in between because they were not the best use to use points, so instead I earned points on them. (CUN, BZN, LAS, STT, LGA)


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## Carolinian (Apr 3, 2013)

At that differenial, one would probably just go with the cheaper one, but at lesser differentials, many go with their airline of choice.  That is especially true if they have elite status, where the extra miles earned (double as an AA plat for me, for example), the upgrade possibilities, and other elite perks make the extra worthwhile.  When I was a DL elite, the travel agency I used (yes, that was in the old days) regularly found NW flights $20-50 cheaper on a $500+ TATL fare than DL, but I still flew DL for the elite perks.  Many do that.  If you need the extra miles to requalify as elite, then even the fare differential you mention is well worth it.

I am now with AA and One World, so I put up with the aggravation of Heathrow, something I would not do otherwise.  Actually, Heathrow is not all that bad when you have Plat status and are sitting in the BA lounge free for that reason!

Non elites will abandon an ff program much more readily than elites, and that is why it is beneficial to the airline to keep the elites loyal.




Smokatoke said:


> Part of my point was you usually always shop for the best price regardless of your status with an airline. I would always pay 300 instead of 500 even if I was triple platinum smiley face with the more expensive. Also as I mentioned if none of the airlines had rewards, you would be price based shopping and customer service like you do anyway, so I dont think its a good argument.
> 
> And yes credit cards team up with airlines because they want you to rack up debt with them, so they pitch you on a pile of points which really only equates to one free round trip ticket. Yes there are some perks in the end but my overall point is be happy with the free we get. Not sure how we complain about free when we are still getting a service that we originally paid for...


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## Carolinian (Apr 3, 2013)

ff programs have already been degraded to the point that many suggest cash back credit cards instead of ones that earn miles.  If they go much further downhill that will snowball on them.

Here is a recommendation today of moving away from hotel points due to the recent devaluations there:

http://www.frugaltravelguy.com/2013/03/priceline-back-to-the-good-old-days.html

The question from the hotels standpoint is - Don't they come out better with people paying higher prices and getting points than they do with people shopping for cheaper prices and forgetting about the points?


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Apr 3, 2013)

Smokatoke said:


> Part of my point was you usually always shop for the best price regardless of your status with an airline. I would always pay 300 instead of 500 even if I was triple platinum smiley face with the more expensive. Also as I mentioned if none of the airlines had rewards, you would be price based shopping and customer service like you do anyway, so I dont think its a good argument.



This is not at all true.  There are many people, like myself, who gladly and willingly pay more for fares on our preferred airline(s) to maintain qualification for elite flyer status. The *big* benefit is being able to access exit row and bulkhead seats, where it is possible to get work done.  When you bill by the hour as I do, that is more money in my pocket even though I might pay more for the ticket.  And then I get a more comfortable flight and the occasional free first class upgrade.  In fact, I have a cross-country trip coming up in the next couple of weeks in which I paid ~$150 extra to fly on my preferred airline, but I'll probably generate around $1000 revenue while I'm on the plane.

This is a situation of the program working exactly as intended, to the benefit of both the airline and travelers such as I.  

****

There was an article that ran in today's Seattle Times about Delta airlines flight classes.  The article mentioned that 25% of Delta's revenues are generated by 5% of the passengers.  Those are customers that Delta wants to be sure are very happy and keep coming back.


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## Sandy VDH (Apr 3, 2013)

I too would take a flight on a carrier that I have status, over one that I do not, provided the price differential were +20 to +100 depending on the length of flight. 

I am 6' tall.  A bulk head or emergency row exit is worth at least $50 - 100 to me. 

As a 1K status flyer on UA I can often get a complimentary upgrade to first.  

I have flown once in the last 10 years where I had to sit in awful seat.  I will refuse to fly if that happens again.


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## Smokatoke (Apr 3, 2013)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> This is not at all true.  There are many people, like myself, who gladly and willingly pay more for fares on our preferred airline(s) to maintain qualification for elite flyer status. The *big* benefit is being able to access exit row and bulkhead seats, where it is possible to get work done.  When you bill by the hour as I do, that is more money in my pocket even though I might pay more for the ticket.  And then I get a more comfortable flight and the occasional free first class upgrade.  In fact, I have a cross-country trip coming up in the next couple of weeks in which I paid ~$150 extra to fly on my preferred airline, but I'll probably generate around $1000 revenue while I'm on the plane.
> 
> This is a situation of the program working exactly as intended, to the benefit of both the airline and travelers such as I.
> 
> ...



I was more speaking about the general population. I fly a lot as well with my company so FF is a nice benefit and I dont have to consider cost too much... but for most non-business consumers $50-100 difference in airfare will put them on the cheaper fare vs sticking with one airline


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Apr 3, 2013)

Smokatoke said:


> I was more speaking about the general population. I fly a lot as well with my company so FF is a nice benefit and I dont have to consider cost too much... but for most non-business consumers $50-100 difference in airfare will put them on the cheaper fare vs sticking with one airline



I agree.  And the flyers the airlines want are the business travelers who are willing to pay the extra.  Hence, referring back to the title of this thread, there will not be an end of the line for FF programs.  What will continue to happen, though, is that the FF programs will be increasingly tailored to benefit the true frequent flyers, while becoming less useful to the "infrequent" flyers.


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## Carolinian (Apr 4, 2013)

The best flyers for airlines are the people who only fly in the high fare buckets, but there are not so many of them.  The worst flyers are the occaisionally leisure flyers who fly only price.

The tricky part is the mixed fare flyers, which is what the majority of business passengers are.  We fly in the high fare buckets on our biz travel, but try to cut costs on our personal leisure travel.  For many of us, if an airline starts screwing us on our personal leisure travel, they are not going to get our biz travel either.  So if the bean counters at an airline devise a scheme that screws the mixed fare flyers, they are simply going to lose our loyalty.  I have to jump through a lot of hoops with my corporate travel office to make sure I fly on my airline of choice, but it is worth doing that because I like the ff program I am in.  If the ff program goes to the dogs, it becomes no longer worth doing that, so the travel office can put me on whomever they want.




T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I agree.  And the flyers the airlines want are the business travelers who are willing to pay the extra.  Hence, referring back to the title of this thread, there will not be an end of the line for FF programs.  What will continue to happen, though, is that the FF programs will be increasingly tailored to benefit the true frequent flyers, while becoming less useful to the "infrequent" flyers.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Apr 4, 2013)

Carolinian said:


> The best flyers for airlines are the people who only fly in the high fare buckets, but there are not so many of them.  The worst flyers are the occaisionally leisure flyers who fly only price.
> 
> The tricky part is the mixed fare flyers, which is what the majority of business passengers are.  We fly in the high fare buckets on our biz travel, but try to cut costs on our personal leisure travel.  For many of us, if an airline starts screwing us on our personal leisure travel, they are not going to get our biz travel either.  So if the bean counters at an airline devise a scheme that screws the mixed fare flyers, they are simply going to lose our loyalty.  I have to jump through a lot of hoops with my corporate travel office to make sure I fly on my airline of choice, but it is worth doing that because I like the ff program I am in.  If the ff program goes to the dogs, it becomes no longer worth doing that, so the travel office can put me on whomever they want.


Yep - the balancing act the successful operations will do is to cater to those who fly regulatory in higher buckets, deliver enough benefits for travelers such as you and I to make it worthwhile for us to be loyal, and let the scraps fall to the occasional travelers.


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## radmoo (Apr 4, 2013)

I received an email from US Air Dividend Miles off erupting 50% bonus fr converting hotel points to miles.  Does anyone knw if there s a cap?  Can 
I convert 300k marriott points?


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## PeterS (Apr 4, 2013)

radmoo said:


> I received an email from US Air Dividend Miles off erupting 50% bonus fr converting hotel points to miles.  Does anyone knw if there s a cap?  Can
> I convert 300k marriott points?



The only cap is that you get one transaction only...
If converting a Marriott package, I believe the max is 120K...
You can't do 2 packages as it is considered two transactions...
If you try multiple packages, you will only get a bonus on the first one completed.


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## MichaelColey (Apr 5, 2013)

I totally disagree.  Frequent flyer programs will change (and have already done a lot of that), but they are definitely here to stay.  They are HUGE profit centers for the airlines, who sell FF miles to credit card companies and hundreds of other companies.

Airlines also use the frequent flyer programs very effectively to keep their customers loyal, and they've increasingly shifted from doing that through miles to doing it instead through perks.  Someone who has flown enough to earn status with an airline will get free luggage, priority boarding, priority check-in, upgrades, and much more.  Flyers with status will usually choose their preferred airline even if it's not the cheapest.


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## SMHarman (Apr 5, 2013)

MichaelColey said:


> I totally disagree.  Frequent flyer programs will change (and have already done a lot of that), but they are definitely here to stay.  They are HUGE profit centers for the airlines, who sell FF miles to credit card companies and hundreds of other companies.


True - and who is calling the shots on this now.  The banks and credit card networks also make millions on the merchant fees on airline ticket transactions.


MichaelColey said:


> Someone who has flown enough to earn status with an airline will get free luggage, priority boarding, priority check-in, upgrades, and much more.


But now I can get all of that apart from upgrades, (and the % upgrade rate for FFs seems to be falling dramatically of late anyway) by paying $95 to say Chase (free for the first year) for the United Mileage Plus Explorer card, along with two lounge access cards.  If I want to do the lounge all year (and get status with Hyatt and Avis (and match that status onto Enterprise and Hertz)) then I can get the $395 club card.  AA and Citi do much the same, I'm sure I can find the same for the other big US carriers, not much point from NYC though.  
15 years ago I had to put my butt in a plane seat for 25-50k miles for than, now I drop $95.  That is a significant devaluation of perks.


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## buzglyd (Apr 5, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> True - and who is calling the shots on this now.  The banks and credit card networks also make millions on the merchant fees on airline ticket transactions.
> But now I can get all of that apart from upgrades, (and the % upgrade rate for FFs seems to be falling dramatically of late anyway) by paying $95 to say Chase (free for the first year) for the United Mileage Plus Explorer card, along with two lounge access cards.  If I want to do the lounge all year (and get status with Hyatt and Avis (and match that status onto Enterprise and Hertz)) then I can get the $395 club card.  AA and Citi do much the same, I'm sure I can find the same for the other big US carriers, not much point from NYC though.
> 15 years ago I had to put my butt in a plane seat for 25-50k miles for than, now I drop $95.  That is a significant devaluation of perks.



Like I said before, when everyone has status, no one has status.

I try to keep myself in at least the Gold range every year because of the mileage bonuses.


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## MichaelColey (Apr 6, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> 15 years ago I had to put my butt in a plane seat for 25-50k miles for than, now I drop $95.  That is a significant devaluation of perks.


15 years ago, you didn't have to pay for bags.  And the biggest perk (upgrades) is still only something you can get with actual status with most airlines.

Many casual travelers don't play the loyalty game.  It's like that in most industries.  For instance, last night we went to the Rainforest Cafe in Downtown Disney.  They were telling everyone in front of us in line that it was a 2 hour, 40 minute wait.  I flashed my Landry's Select card (their loyalty program, which has priority seating as one benefit) and we were seated within 20 minutes.

You might be able to drop $95 and get a form of status with an airline, but are you going to do that with half a dozen airlines, or are you going to pick one and be loyal to that airline?


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 6, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> True - and who is calling the shots on this now.  The banks and credit card networks also make millions on the merchant fees on airline ticket transactions.
> But now I can get all of that apart from upgrades, (and the % upgrade rate for FFs seems to be falling dramatically of late anyway) by paying $95 to say Chase (free for the first year) for the United Mileage Plus Explorer card, along with two lounge access cards.  If I want to do the lounge all year (and get status with Hyatt and Avis (and match that status onto Enterprise and Hertz)) then I can get the $395 club card.  AA and Citi do much the same, I'm sure I can find the same for the other big US carriers, not much point from NYC though.
> 15 years ago I had to put my butt in a plane seat for 25-50k miles for than, now I drop $95.  That is a significant devaluation of perks.



Not sure I understand the point of your post.   There is devaluation of perqs.  So what?

There is inflation in the economy, so your dollars earn less every year.  That is devaluation of purchasing power.

If someone sees value in a $95 annual fee, good for them and good for the service provider.  I call that innovation.


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## cotraveller (Apr 6, 2013)

For those of us who are infrequent flyers, the airline credit cards can be a very useful feature.  We haven't flown on a paid United ticket since 2009 when we went to France on a river cruise.  We have flown to multiple destinations on United since then using miles accumulated primarily on a United Airlines Mileage Plus credit card.

Using the $95 annual fee Chase UAL Explorer card we accumulated over 25,000 miles last year, received an additional 10,000 mile bonus, had free bag check on our Florida trip last month, spent our waiting time at the airport in the United Lounge, and boarded early assuring us of overhead space for our carry on luggage.

So while the ff programs may be tailored to keep the frequent business travellers happy (I did enjoy my Premier status when I used to fly for work), the benefits haven't gone away for the rest of us.


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## Ken555 (Apr 6, 2013)

MichaelColey said:


> 15 years ago, you didn't have to pay for bags.  And the biggest perk (upgrades) is still only something you can get with actual status with most airlines.
> 
> Many casual travelers don't play the loyalty game.  It's like that in most industries.  For instance, last night we went to the Rainforest Cafe in Downtown Disney.  They were telling everyone in front of us in line that it was a 2 hour, 40 minute wait.  I flashed my Landry's Select card (their loyalty program, which has priority seating as one benefit) and we were seated within 20 minutes.
> 
> You might be able to drop $95 and get a form of status with an airline, but are you going to do that with half a dozen airlines, or are you going to pick one and be loyal to that airline?



Good example re relevant available perks, but not quite analogous to the airline industry. In this case Landry's Select card is virtually free (when I got mine I think I had to prepay $50 and get more in value, but since then I think it's almost free). Airlines make us jump thru many hoops before reaching even the lowest level of loyalty awards, other than miles - the only exception are the affiliations with credit cards and the various benefits some provide.

Current Landry Select membership cost:



> There is a one-time, non-refundable $25 Membership Fee. There is no annual fee to continue your membership. You will also receive a $25 Welcome Reward for joining the Landry’s Select Club within 24 hours of registering your account online.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 6, 2013)

http://millionmilesecrets.com/credit-cards/airline-credit-cards/

Love to read this guy's site.


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## MALC9990 (Apr 6, 2013)

Carolinian said:


> I am getting a great upgrade percentage with AA, and the award seats I have looked for, I have found with them.  Still, NW was the best, and I really miss them.  Their DC9's and Avros had the highest percentage of 1st class seats of anything flying in the US, so except on the hub to hub routes, it meant almost a guarantee of an upgrade.
> 
> The one I miss most is BMI.  Every award seat I asked for I got, including on their Star partners.  I earned 3K miles for hotel stays.  And many intra-Europe routes were 9K R/T with the others being 12K R/T.  TATL was 45K R/T.  This was right up to the BA takeover last year.



And BMI were racking up loses so fast it would make you wince if you were a shareholder. 

The way I look at it is using my BAEC points to get upgrades or full award seats is a challenge and I'm up for the challenge. Being retired helps since I am flexible enough to make the system work. This year we will do 3 Returns in CW upgraded from WT+ using Avios for the upgrade and a F return to Miami on Avios and a 2-4-1 voucher. The upgrades will be to HkG, IAD and ATL all from LHR and in addition a rtn on AA from MIA to STT.


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## x3 skier (Apr 6, 2013)

Speaking of Landry's for a moment, I had a McCormick and Schmick's card I got for free. When they got bought by Landry, I got the Landry card for free and kept all my Mc&S points, just like I kept my TWA (remember them?) miles when AA bought them.

BTW, if the Useless Air Weenies combine my US and AA Accounts, I wll be lifetime Executive Platinum. Of course, knowing Useless Air, I am not holding my breath. 

Cheers


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## SMHarman (Apr 8, 2013)

BocaBum99 said:


> Not sure I understand the point of your post.   There is devaluation of perqs.  So what?
> 
> There is inflation in the economy, so your dollars earn less every year.  That is devaluation of purchasing power.
> 
> If someone sees value in a $95 annual fee, good for them and good for the service provider.  I call that innovation.


The point is that the airlines are heavily indebted to the banks so the banks are calling the shots on the affinity card perks and the airlines are nodding in agreement.

There is devaluation in purchasing through inflation and there is inflation in cc perks.

I look at my $95/yr fees on UA and AA affinity cards as a wash as I would be paying that in baggage fees anyway.  That is the killer perk here.  Adding priority treatment for luggage lines and boarding etc is just gravy and pi$$es off the true FF who is boarding with a huge group 1.


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## akp (Apr 8, 2013)

I just booked 2 round-trip tickets to Maui for next March.  I found the perfect routing in business class on the way back, compromised a bit on the outbound and I'm in coach.

But still, this was 60,000 miles plus $10.  Given that I got all the miles either as sign-up bonuses or in heavily bonused (5 points per dollar) type spend, this was a fantastic deal.  

To make it even better, I added a free-one way to New York six months prior for no increase in miles or money.

It may not be the way it used to be, but there is still a lot of opportunity.  You just have to read and read, learn the tricks, learn new tricks when the old ones change, etc.

Anita


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## MichaelColey (Apr 8, 2013)

akp said:


> It may not be the way it used to be, but there is still a lot of opportunity.  You just have to read and read, learn the tricks, learn new tricks when the old ones change, etc.


That bears repeating.  And not just with loyalty programs, but with everything -- including timeshares.


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## Carolinian (Apr 8, 2013)

BMI made some bad business decisions that had nothing to do with their ff program.  The ff program was profitable in selling miles like most of them are.




MALC9990 said:


> And BMI were racking up loses so fast it would make you wince if you were a shareholder.
> 
> The way I look at it is using my BAEC points to get upgrades or full award seats is a challenge and I'm up for the challenge. Being retired helps since I am flexible enough to make the system work. This year we will do 3 Returns in CW upgraded from WT+ using Avios for the upgrade and a F return to Miami on Avios and a 2-4-1 voucher. The upgrades will be to HkG, IAD and ATL all from LHR and in addition a rtn on AA from MIA to STT.


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## Carolinian (Apr 8, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> Speaking of Landry's for a moment, I had a McCormick and Schmick's card I got for free. When they got bought by Landry, I got the Landry card for free and kept all my Mc&S points, just like I kept my TWA (remember them?) miles when AA bought them.
> 
> BTW, if the Useless Air Weenies combine my US and AA Accounts, I wll be lifetime Executive Platinum. Of course, knowing Useless Air, I am not holding my breath.
> 
> Cheers



. . . but it may not be anything like the current ExPlat.


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## MALC9990 (Apr 9, 2013)

Carolinian said:


> BMI made some bad business decisions that had nothing to do with their ff program.  The ff program was profitable in selling miles like most of them are.



One of the bad business decisions would have been the one where they were too free with the redemption availability. A little more attention to selling seats and less to giving away freebies would have been a good idea.


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## Carolinian (Apr 9, 2013)

MALC9990 said:


> One of the bad business decisions would have been the one where they were too free with the redemption availability. A little more attention to selling seats and less to giving away freebies would have been a good idea.



There problem was not, as you suggest, inventory control.  It was in marketing and in selecting routes.  If the seats are not sold, it costs nothing to let a ff member have them, and good inventory control lets you know how many of those seats there will be.  For some reason, when LH bought the airline they did worse on marketing and route selection than BMI did when it was independent.  I think part of the reason was that they intended originally to fold BMI into LH and made their route and marketing decisions on what would work best for that, not what would be most profitable.


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