# Extremely Obese Seatmate on Full Aircraft



## Kal (Feb 20, 2017)

In a recent full capacity flight there were 2 extremely obese people sitting in the window and middle seats.  A man with reasonable body size was in the aisle seat.  He had to raise the aisle seat arm and hang over into the aisle.  I was in the adjacent aisle seat across from him.  Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this situation aside from a very unpleasant discussion with the middle seat occupant if you were in that seat?


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## theo (Feb 20, 2017)

Kal said:


> In a recent full capacity flight there were 2 extremely obese people sitting in the window and middle seats.  A man with reasonable body size was in the aisle seat.  He had to raise the aisle seat arm and hang over into the aisle.  I was in the adjacent aisle seat across from him.  Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this situation aside from a very unpleasant discussion with the middle seat occupant if you were in that seat?



Been there, done that (....no, not as the morbidly obese passenger). On a full flight, there are sadly no polite, viable solutions available.


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 20, 2017)

I would have flagged down the flight attendant and asked for the situation to be corrected....esp if the window & middle seat persons had put the separating arm rests UP to infringe on MY seat space. "People of size" rules exist in the airline industry...it is a safety issue along with a comfort issue for fellow passengers. 

It I was blown off or told I had to 'tough it out', I would have politely taken a picture (no faces) of my seat mates to document the situation. 

Then I would have spent most of my flight time being the flight attendant's new BFF in their space.


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## foundyoubyaccident (Feb 20, 2017)

Kal said:


> In a recent full capacity flight there were 2 extremely obese people sitting in the window and middle seats.  A man with reasonable body size was in the aisle seat.  He had to raise the aisle seat arm and hang over into the aisle.  I was in the adjacent aisle seat across from him.  Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this situation aside from a very unpleasant discussion with the middle seat occupant if you were in that seat?





vacationhopeful said:


> I would have flagged down the flight attendant and asked for the situation to be corrected....esp if the window & middle seat persons had put the separating arm rests UP to infringe on MY seat space. "People of size" rules exist in the airline industry...it is a safety issue along with a comfort issue for fellow passengers.
> 
> It I was blown off or told I had to 'tough it out', I would have politely taken a picture (no faces) of my seat mates to document the situation.
> 
> Then I would have spent most of my flight time being the flight attendant's new BFF in their space.



I have heard before that if the airline over booked, they will drop their FAT PEOPLE policy to fix their mistake.  This could be that issue.

You don't see the guy with extra long legs touching me, or taking up my leg room have to pay for an extra ticket.  Or the person with broad shoulders can't keep their shoulders from touching me.  So really the "passenger of size"  rule is just a way to financially punish fat people for being fat,  especially when they can be kicked off a flight before it starts unless they buy the extra ticket.  It seems more to me that the passenger of size rule is only in effect when it is convenient for said airline.

Can you imagine how those extremely obese people felt sitting in that plane?  Especially if they had to purchase 2nd tickets for themselves per policy?


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 20, 2017)

Airlines can bump people (and airlines can make volunteer bumping attractive). It is a safety issue, not just a comfort thing.

Would the large size passengers have their seat belts fastened or doing the "fake out"? And it is within the ticketing terms, THEY can be required to BUY an extra seat (and since they are travelling together .. it would just be the 'middle' seat .. 1 ticket).

Sorry .. I am NOT a small person myself with my highest weight several years ago at 290lbs.


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## Ironwood (Feb 20, 2017)

I recall suffering once sitting beside an extremely overweight gentleman... it wasn't so much the seat spillover but the wheezing and throat clearing that was uncomfortable.   The plane was full and I just put up with it.   A few years ago on a transatlantic flight in a three seat row I was sitting between my wife and a woman who had limited English.  We had paid extra to ensure we sat together in economy.  The woman's daughter who I would guess was 12 or 13 was seated 5 or six rows back on her own.  Early in the flight I went to the bathroom to return to find her daughter sitting in my seat.  The mother enveloped her daughter with her arms and wouldn't let go or give way asking me to 'go there' pointing to her daughters seat.  When she would not yield, I asked the stewardess if she could arrange to find two seats together for them or us she said she would try, but never came back.  I took the girls seat and we traveled separately to London.  I don't mind giving up my seat or accommodating another when there appears to be a real need, but the girl did not appear to be in distress.   I emailed the carrier upon return, but got no reply.  I just let it go.... but maybe I should have at least pursued the reimbursement of the seating charge.


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## tompalm (Feb 20, 2017)

If you see this situation happening to you and want to make a change to your seat, you need to complain to a flight attendant as soon as possible before the flight fills up. Most of the time, full flights are the result of non-revs, or company employees getting on the aircraft and flying for free. The airline should be giving that bad seat to a non-rev and the gate agent will make the adjustment if they know about it.  If the flight is sold out or overbooked, you might have to decide on taking another flight or just surviving the situation that you are in. What defines too obese for one seat is not in the books yet. Maybe each company has their own policy or standard. But when a passenger goes online and buys a seat, there is not a question about how much they weigh and the airline does not know the situation until they see it at the gate or someone complains about it. If fact, don't expect the gate agent or flight attendant to do anything until you complain about it.

I like the idea of invading a FA's space on the the flight, but that doesn't work and making them angry at you solves nothing. This problem has existed for years and nothing has been done to correct it. Expect the situation to continue. It is an unpleasant situation to deal with. But most overweight or obese people understand and they don't like being crowed either. So don't feel bad about asking a person flying for free to get off the aircraft so you can have a nice seat that you paid for.

I used to fly a lot for business and often found myself in undesirable seats. Today I only fly when going on vacation and sit next to my wife that weighs 100 lbs and make every effort to sit in a wide body with a 2-5-2 configuration. We always reserve the two seats by the window and enjoy our ride. But, if for some reason we end up in a crowded seat next to an obese person, I will do what I suggested above.


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## Phydeaux (Feb 20, 2017)

foundyoubyaccident said:


> I have heard before that if the airline over booked, they will drop their FAT PEOPLE policy to fix their mistake.  This could be that issue.
> 
> You don't see the guy with extra long legs touching me, or taking up my leg room have to pay for an extra ticket.  Or the person with broad shoulders can't keep their shoulders from touching me.  So really the "passenger of size"  rule is just a way to financially punish fat people for being fat,  especially when they can be kicked off a flight before it starts unless they buy the extra ticket.  It seems more to me that the passenger of size rule is only in effect when it is convenient for said airline.
> 
> Can you imagine how those extremely obese people felt sitting in that plane?  Especially if they had to purchase 2nd tickets for themselves per policy?



No sympathy from me for the obese. It's the lifestyle choice _they made_. No one is holding a gun to anyones head telling them to eat more. Charging for 2 seats when they spill into a second seat only makes sense. Further, airlines charge more for extra _checked_ baggage the way it is, because extra weight = extra operating costs for airlines. Only makes sense to charge more for unchecked (passenger) excess weight.  Having several million frequent flyer miles under my belt, I cant' recall an instance where someone with broad shoulders or "extra long legs" ever encroached on my space. Suggesting airlines punish fat people for being fat is absurd. The only thing worse than being stuck next to the space-hogging fat person is the one that can't seem to control their flatulence.


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## clifffaith (Feb 20, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> No sympathy from me for the obese. It's the lifestyle choice _they made_. No one is holding a gun to anyones head telling them to eat more. Charging for 2 seats when they spill into a second seat only makes sense. Further, airlines charge more for extra _checked_ baggage the way it is, because extra weight = extra operating costs for airlines. Only makes sense to charge more for unchecked (passenger) excess weight.  Having several million frequent flyer miles under my belt, I cant' recall an instance where someone with broad shoulders or "extra long legs" ever encroached on my space. Suggesting airlines punish fat people for being fat is absurd. The only thing worse than being stuck next to the space-hogging fat person is the one that can't seem to control their flatulence.



OK. Inappropriate story alert. Years ago when they used to feed you on airplanes we were served breakfast on a morning flight. Apparently the reconstituted scrambled eggs didn't agree with Cliff. He was on the aisle, I was in the middle, and a man whose family was elsewhere on the plane was at the window. After breakfast the man went to sleep. Eventually a god awful stench eminates from Cliff's direction and I gave him the evil eye. Then the man next to me wakes up and says "I thought I was having a nightmare!" So Cliff does his innocent act and the man says "Not I, said the pig". I absolutely lost it and was literally laughing hysterically in this strange man's arms. The thing is "Not I said the pig" is a favorite line of Cliff's (who will help me bake the cake?, asked the little red hen), and to have a stranger use it just tickled me to death. We got rerouted and ended up in Tulsa for awhile before we could go on to Oklahoma City. In the airport we ended up on the moving sidewalk going one direction and saw the other passenger going the opposite direction with his family. Of course he points Cliff out and his kids are laughing and I ended up in stitches again too.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 20, 2017)

This isn't the first time this discussion has come up.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/on-airplane-now-large-woman-spilling-onto-me.168684/


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## isisdave (Feb 20, 2017)

It wasn't clear in the OP whether the two larger people were traveling together or not. I suppose they were. I would imagine it's as difficult for them as for their neighbor.  I had some ideas for them:

* try to get into a 2-across seating aisle
* buy 3 seats for two people if you know you have to be in a location that's not 2-across
* don't sit together; try to get two aisle seats in different rows that have minimal restroom traffic​
It could be worse: on a trip home from Rome to LAX once, our seatmate opened and ate an onion sandwich soon after takeoff.  I am not kidding! And nearly every traveler has endured a seatmate who considers bathing a rare treat.

And Phydeaux probably doesn't believe this, but obesity is not always a "lifestyle choice."  Medical conditions can contribute. And different people's bodies process food differently. I know families where (for example) only one of several children was way above average size by the age of 18 months and still is, yet they were all raised and fed identically. Other conditions can make close quarters unpleasant for neighbors, too, but we're all in this together, especially on airliners.

[My prediction for the future is that we'll travel anesthetized in horizontal tubes, kind of like the pods they show on those interstellar travel movies, only much closer together.  Just think, they could load us into a 3x3 matrix of those in the terminal, and then convey them automatically into a cargo-type aircraft. No need for entertainment, food, or restrooms! I should patent this idea before Ryanair thinks of it.]


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## Big Matt (Feb 20, 2017)

Very simply......have the same rules for people as for carry on luggage.  It either does or doesn't fit into the little sample size checker outside in the terminal.  If it doesn't fit, you have to check the bag.  Not sure what the equivalent for this is, but I can't imagine putting a person in the hold.  This is not a discrimination thing.  You are buying a seat/space on the plane.  Have obese seats that people can reserve.  Don't charge more, just offer.  My guess is that very large people will fill them.  Check at the gate and make sure they are big enough.  If no obese folks show up then give them to the rest of the passengers standing by.


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## Phydeaux (Feb 20, 2017)

isisdave said:


> And Phydeaux probably doesn't believe this, but obesity is not always a "lifestyle choice."  Medical conditions can contribute. And different people's bodies process food differently. I know families where (for example) only one of several children was way above average size by the age of 18 months and still is, *yet they were all raised and fed identically.*]



Phydeaux happens to know just a bit about this subject, having been on a professional team that treated the obese in the medical field. No, they were undoubtedly *overfed* identically. Science is rather pure on this subject.


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## Pedro (Feb 20, 2017)

I had a 5+ hour-long flight a couple of evenings away, in an aircraft with a 2-3-2 configuration.  I had an exit row seat on the 2-seat side, where the armrests can't be lifted. My seatmate boarded a little after me and he tried to seat down, and he just wouldn't fit unless he was sideways.  He asked the guy across the aisle from him if he would change seats, and I ended up with a normal-sized seatmate.  He had to lift the armrest on his new seat, and he was obviously encroaching onto the space of the person seating next to him.  It was a full flight so there was no room for re-accommodations. I felt bad for the person who had to spend more than 5 hours with limited space and seating on a middle seat.


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## Pedro (Feb 20, 2017)

Back in the 90s I had a coworker who certainly was obese (he needed 2 scales to take his weight) and he was in his late 20s.  Since we always walked to the cafeteria together, I always had a chance to see his eating habits. More often than not he'd order:

two double bacon cheeseburgers
an order of fries
an order of onion rings
the largest piece of chocolate cake he could find
and to top it all: *diet* coke (to cut down on calorie intake)
From my point of view, that is a lifestyle choice and not a pure genetically-caused problem. Plain physics here!  I never met an obese person who had salad for lunch and a small meal for dinner.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 20, 2017)

Pedro said:


> he needed 2 scales to take his weigh


How do you use two scales to take your weight? Seems like it would be highly unreliable. You can't just stand on one with one foot and one with the other and add the two amounts together.


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## Jason245 (Feb 20, 2017)

I have found it very easy to deal with large people trying to encroach on my space. . It involves me doing lots of fidgeting. . Pulling out a laptop or book  and having my elbows protect my space. . And or finding other ways to make their encroachment uncomfortable for them. Ultimately, if you want to invade my space I will do the same to you.  I paid for a seat and ultimately if you didn't pay for enough space for you that was your mistake.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## Phydeaux (Feb 20, 2017)

Pedro said:


> From my point of view, that is a lifestyle choice and not a pure genetically-caused problem. Plain physics here!  *I never met an obese person who had salad for lunch and a small meal for dinner*.




And if you ever did, I can assure you, there was a LOT of eating going on between those witnessed meals. This really isn't rocket surgery. It's a disorder. There, I said it. If that offends anyone, get over it.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 20, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> And if you ever did, I can assure you, there was a LOT of eating going on between those witnessed meals. This really isn't rocket surgery. It's a disorder. There, I said it. If that offends anyone, get over it.


I am only offended by the term "rocket surgery".


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## Pedro (Feb 20, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> How do you use two scales to take your weight? Seems like it would be highly unreliable. You can't just stand on one with one foot and one with the other and add the two amounts together.



Actually, you can use multiple scales and then add the individual weight shown on each scale to obtain the total weight.  It is a linear equation.


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## Pedro (Feb 20, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> I am only offended by the term "rocket surgery".



Hey, I work with rockets! (and none of them are heavier than they have to be)


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## dioxide45 (Feb 20, 2017)

Pedro said:


> Actually, you can use multiple scales and then add the individual weight shown on each scale to obtain the total weight.  It is a linear equation.


Guess you can. It has been a long time since physics class. I learned this is how they weigh aircraft at the gate.


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## clifffaith (Feb 20, 2017)

I'm still over reading the other thread while pausing to dab at my eyes from laughter. But I wanted to ask -- someone mentioned buying three seats for two people because it was a fraction of the cost of Business Class.  But what do you do to "own" those seats and make sure the airline doesn't either give them away as a no show, or a flight attendant doesn't try to move some poor soul squished up next to an obese person in another row into the vacant seat?


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## dioxide45 (Feb 20, 2017)

clifffaith said:


> I'm still over reading the other thread while pausing to dab at my eyes from laughter. But I wanted to ask -- someone mentioned buying three seats for two people because it was a fraction of the cost of Business Class.  But what do you do to "own" those seats and make sure the airline doesn't either give them away as a no show, or a flight attendant doesn't try to move some poor soul squished up next to an obese person in another row into the vacant seat?


Southwest actually has a very liberal policy on customers of size where in the past they were the scorn. A customer of size buys two seats and has two seats reserved. They are given a card, that really looks like a boarding pass, to place on the seat indicating it is reserved. They are also permitted to board the plan ahead of Group A. After completion of the flight, they can request a refund of the fare, even if the flight was sold out.


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## easyrider (Feb 20, 2017)

We fly Alaska Airlines for most air travel. Their policy requires a person who can not fit within the 17 span between the arm rests to purchase two tickets. If they didn't purchase two tickets they are asked to disembark if some one complains. On a trip last year we had a lady who couldn't fit in her isle seat. It was a six hour trip but we let her stay because she was very clean and almost could fit in her seat. If it were some one gross we would have complained. 

Alaska Airline policy for people too big for the seat.

https://www.alaskaair.com/content/travel-info/policies/seating-customers-of-size.aspx

Bill


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## theo (Feb 20, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> I am only offended by the term "rocket surgery".



Not really at all offended, but certainly very confused. Rocket surgery? Really?


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## theo (Feb 20, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> This isn't the first time this discussion has come up.
> 
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/on-airplane-now-large-woman-spilling-onto-me.168684/



Thanks for the memories! I really enjoyed (howled at, actually) Heathpack's eloquent and entertaining portrayal of her dilemma in that thread, although not without having some sympathy for the overarching (...oversized?) plight in which she found herself "surrounded".


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## linpat (Feb 20, 2017)

Several years ago I saw 3 young women sitting in coach bulkhead seats so you would assume that they had room - at least leg room. The young woman in the middle was so obese that she could not sit all the way back in her seat but sat several inches forward in the seat. I wondered how many seat belt extensions that she needed and felt really sorry for the 2 young women on either side. I don't think that the 3 were traveling together, but it just looked like a miserable way to spend a couple of hours.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 20, 2017)

linpat said:


> Several years ago I saw 3 young women sitting in coach bulkhead seats so you would assume that they had room - at least leg room. The young woman in the middle was so obese that she could not sit all the way back in her seat but sat several inches forward in the seat. I wondered how many seat belt extensions that she needed and felt really sorry for the 2 young women on either side. I don't think that the 3 were traveling together, but it just looked like a miserable way to spend a couple of hours.


The problem with bulkhead is that often the tray table is stowed between the seats. So they take away a lot of room. For the customer of size, they should never book a bulkhead.


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## Kal (Feb 20, 2017)

Jason245 said:


> I have found it very easy to deal with large people trying to encroach on my space. . It involves me doing lots of fidgeting. . Pulling out a laptop or book  and having my elbows protect my space. . And or finding other ways to make their encroachment uncomfortable for them. Ultimately, if you want to invade my space I will do the same to you.  I paid for a seat and ultimately if you didn't pay for enough space for you that was your mistake.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


I like the offensive approach as a back up, but would want to take the issue to the flight attendant before all the seats get filled.  It's bad enough to manage my own space in tiny seats on a long flight.  On a 10 hour flight it could get real ugly.


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## Jan M. (Feb 21, 2017)

Last Monday I was flying with my 5 year old granddaughter and just before the plane was ready to take off a couple decided to move into the empty row behind us. Usually the flight attendants will tell people trying to do this to resume their original seats and wait until the seat belt sign goes off before switching seats. The man sat directly behind me and his very long legs pushed into the back of my seat. I gave it a few minutes thinking he just needed to get settled but no such luck. So I had my granddaughter very quickly switch seats with me as I have an extremely bad back and would have been in agony and barely able to walk from the pressure of his knees on my lower back. Of course then two flight attendants show up asking me what the problem is. I quietly and discreetly explained why I'd had to move asap and made no complaint, saying it was easily fixed. I didn't want to embarrass anyone but hello if your legs are that long angle them towards the empty seat in the middle of your row or pay for a seat with extra leg room.

On another recent flight I had the misfortune of being next to a woman in the aisle seat who although not large sat with her arms cocked and elbows pointing out. I never saw anyone who wasn't a large person take up so much space! Her left elbow was digging into my ribs and the right one stuck out into the aisle enough that the flight attendants had to maneuver around her. I think she was an NFL player in a former life because she sat like she was ready to charge the line. So I lean into her elbow a little bit, even rested my arm on top of hers on my edge of the armrest thinking that she will get the hint. Nope she was not budging. As soon as the seat belt sign went off I was in a new seat. When I asked her to let me out she made some comment about the seats not being big enough. Even with the excess weight I'm currently carrying I still have no problem keeping all parts of my body within the space of my own seat! She sat like that the entire flight and with what had been my seat now empty I was able to see that her arm was easily a good 6 inches over the armrest. 

But my all time favorite seatmate story was on an overnight flight home from Vegas. My husband and I were across the aisle from each other. Our middle seat mates were a couple in their late 20's to mid 30's. I offered to have my husband take my aisle seat and I would take her middle seat so she could move across the aisle and sit next to her husband/boyfriend. She says no thanks. Okay, maybe the trip hadn't gone well. Well it didn't take long for me to figure out why this attractive, thin woman didn't want to sit next to her male companion. She had the most foul gas ever and every 10-15 minutes would release another noxious cloud of it. I periodically rummaged through my purse to get myself mints and gum that I didn't really want so I could offer them to her thinking it might help her. I stood up to stretch several times during the flight hoping she would take the opportunity to use the restroom. No such luck but when they announce it is your last chance to use the restrooms before the flight lands she finally goes. She took a large tote bag from the overhead bin in with her and I suspect she changed her pants while she was in the restroom. Throughout that night there was no sleep for me and it took everything I had not to say to her "Dear Heaven woman, what crawled up inside you and died?"


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## Phydeaux (Feb 21, 2017)

theo said:


> Not really at all offended, but certainly very confused. Rocket surgery? Really?




Humor. You're not the sharpest bulb in the deck, huh theo? Smile. That, too, was meant to be humorous.

Airlines weigh checked in luggage. Me thinks that they should add another scale directly below those podiums to weigh passengers in question. Over the limit? You pay extra for that additional fuel you're burning.


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## theo (Feb 21, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> Humor. You're not the sharpest bulb in the deck, huh theo? Smile. That, too, was meant to be humorous.



O.K.....if you say so. I may have completely missed the "humor" in what otherwise seemed like a somehwhat aggressive "proclamation".


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## Phydeaux (Feb 21, 2017)

theo said:


> O.K.....if you say so. I may have completely missed the "humor" in what otherwise seemed like a somehwhat aggressive "proclamation".




Now now. Please don't play the ever too popular "I'm offended" thing. People need to laugh, and it begins with laughing at oneself. I do so everyday.


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## theo (Feb 21, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> Now now. Please don't play the ever too popular "I'm offended" thing. People need to laugh, and it begins with laughing at oneself. I do so everyday.



Certainly not at all "offended", not for a passing moment. Don't know why you would even suggest otherwise, but it doesn't matter.
Thanks for the Blazing Saddles memory. I can't even imagine that movie being possible in today's society.
Fortunately, Mel Brooks has *never* cared even one little bit about being "politically correct".


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## Kel (Feb 21, 2017)

I am a small person and I cannot tell you how many times my space is encroached on by a large person next to me.  It bothers me that I paid for a whole seat and I don’t always get my whole seat.  I rarely get to put my arm on an armrest.

Two other things bother me on flights:

1.       For safety and comfort - babies should have their own seat and should be buckled into a car seat.  I was on a flight one time where I couldn’t use my tray table because of a large woman traveling alone with a “baby” that looked older than 2 years old.  And, the baby had a poopy diaper when she got on the plane and she had to wait until we were in the air to change it.  Fortunately it was a short flight.

2.      Stinky people.  Smokers, people with body odor, people who wear perfume, strong hand lotions or cologne and the people who have been drinking at the bar for hours are the worst.  We were on a flight one time where a woman was applying finger nail polish.  That set off about eight of us around her.  She put it away.


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## Roger830 (Feb 21, 2017)

Fat-shaming' newspaper columnist is sacked after 30 years for penning a piece about sitting next to an overweight passenger on a plane

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4243950/Fat-shaming-columnist-sacked-newspaper.html


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## Kal (Feb 21, 2017)

Roger830 said:


> Fat-shaming' newspaper columnist is sacked after 30 years for penning a piece about sitting next to an overweight passenger on a plane
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4243950/Fat-shaming-columnist-sacked-newspaper.html


Maybe we should just focus on the fact that the seatmate was substantially intruding on my personal space.  When I am forced to pull up my arm rest on the aisle, it's not safe and I am very uncomfortable.  The seatmate would not move over so it's time for ACTION.  Reminds me of the movie Broadcast News...."_I'm as mad as H**l and I'm not going to take this anymore..."._


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## Phydeaux (Feb 21, 2017)

Kal said:


> Maybe we should just focus on the fact that the seatmate was substantially intruding on my personal space.  When I am forced to pull up my arm rest on the aisle, it's not safe and I am very uncomfortable.  The seatmate would not move over so it's time for ACTION.  Reminds me of the movie *Broadcast News*...."_I'm as mad as H**l and I'm not going to take this anymore..."._



Incorrect. It was the movie '_*Network*_' that made that phrase popular.


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## am1 (Feb 21, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> Incorrect. It was the movie '_*Network*_' that made that phrase popular.



Thankfully lately I have been flying with my sons so have not had this issue.  I would suggest have a certain number of business class sized seats in economy that are more then economy and less then business.


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## Kal (Feb 21, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> Incorrect. It was the movie '_*Network*_' that made that phrase popular.


Yup, but you get the point.


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## Phydeaux (Feb 21, 2017)

Will never forget the flight I was on with a business colleague. He had had enough of the flatulence wafting through the cabin, and in a _LOUD_ voice exclaims - "*STOP FARTING*!!! I don't need to be breathing what's been in someone's colon!

He sure had a point, and he wasn't afraid to express it either.


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## x3 skier (Feb 21, 2017)

This is one of the reasons I'm building my own airplane. I and I alone decide who will fly with me

Cheers


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## Phydeaux (Feb 21, 2017)

x3 skier said:


> This is one of the reasons I'm building my own airplane. I and I alone decide who will fly with me
> 
> Cheers




Very nice! Whatcha building?


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## x3 skier (Feb 21, 2017)

Actually two.  A single seat WW I Fokker D-VIII kit on order and a Sonex under way. Temporarily on hold while I spend the ski season in Steamboat Springs. 

Cheers


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## presley (Feb 21, 2017)

I am not obese, but have often thought of buying 2 seats because I want more room and I don't really like being that close to strangers. It seems I read somewhere, thinking it was here, that someone had 2 first class paid seats and were forced to give up their extra seat because the flight was overbooked. They had already paid for 2 first class seats and had to give one up. Actually, now that I am typing it out, I think it was on Mouseowners and not here that i read about it.

I've noticed lots of times, first class is much more $ than buying 2 regular seats. I'd be pretty disappointed if I bought 2 regular seats and they put someone next to me.


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## clifffaith (Feb 21, 2017)

presley said:


> I am not obese, but have often thought of buying 2 seats because I want more room and I don't really like being that close to strangers. It seems I read somewhere, thinking it was here, that someone had 2 first class paid seats and were forced to give up their extra seat because the flight was overbooked. They had already paid for 2 first class seats and had to give one up. Actually, now that I am typing it out, I think it was on Mouseowners and not here that i read about it.
> 
> I've noticed lots of times, first class is much more $ than buying 2 regular seats. I'd be pretty disappointed if I bought 2 regular seats and they put someone next to me.



That's why I was wondering up thread how one went about making a reservation for and paying for two seats while planning on "occupying" both, without someone else being sat there. Or what about non-refundable tickets home to visit family for a few days and a spouse can't go at the last minute. You know the airline is going to want to put a body in that seat.


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## VacationForever (Feb 21, 2017)

theo said:


> Not really at all offended, but certainly very confused. Rocket surgery? Really?



Cross between rocket science and brain surgery.


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## theo (Feb 21, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> Cross between rocket science and brain surgery.



Got it. Humor. Must tread very carefully here so as to neither offend nor somehow be perceived to *be* offended.


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## dougp26364 (Feb 21, 2017)

For me it's not all about the morbidly obese person next to me on a flight. I somehow manage to gut it out most times. What kills me is the person with exceptionally poor hygiene that stinks to high heaven, someone who's had far to much to drink, the really loud talker who won't shut up, the person who bathes in perfume or cologne, the person (usually a child) that kicks the back of my seat repeatedly, the person who plays footsy with me in my space because they've used all their under seat storage and are now uncomfortable, the person who eats their 6 peanuts with their mouth open smacking their lips and licking their fingers or the person who falls asleep and tries to use me as their pillow. We've enjoyed all of these types on flights over the years. And let's not forget the flyers who have never flown before and can't navigate the ticket counter, security checkpoints or figure out the boarding process (no sir, you're in boarding group 16 and we've only started boarding first class, you'll need to sit back down). Oh......and the gate lice. They start pre-boarding and everyone has to stand up and block the gate for everyone, even if they're in the last boarding group.

Flying for us just isn't much fun anymore. Between the airlines making things less convenient, airport security and travelers who are just plain inconsiderate, morbidly obese flyers are just a small drop in the pond.

Examples I can think of: The girl who was military and didn't understand why she couldn't take a loaded side arm in her carry on bag (She fought with the ticket for a loooonnnngggg time). The person who showed up at the ticket counter to check her bag 15 minutes before the flight was scheduled to depart and was upset when they told her she was to late to catch that flight. The guy sitting next to me, obviously drunk but still being served by the flight attendant, crying inconsolably (felt sorry for him but......).


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## VacationForever (Feb 21, 2017)

Flying has never been fun for me, except for being able to tolerate it in my prior work life when I was flying business class internationally with top class service with an asian airline.  We try to tolerate it now with only flying first class or business class for flights longer than a couple of hours.  We are germaphobic, intolerant of children screaming or crying, dislike seat kickers, people getting into our space (arm rest or seat), smelly people and yakkers.  Even when we are not flying, we are very low key, avoiding crowds and preferring strangers not to be in our space.  Flying is just plain stressful.


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## Sandy VDH (Feb 21, 2017)

I am not morbidly obese (hey I've lost a bunch of weight), nor do I smell (well at least no one has said so, hahaha), but I often do feel sorry for the folks sitting net to me.  I am a 6" tall, sturdily build (read big bone, big frame) women of dutch decent.  I am not the tall stick figure model sized person.   I got both the tall genes and the big boned genes, one from either side of my family.   

I fit in an emergency row seat with non-movable arm rests, but just, however my shoulders/arms are likely going to be just a tad bit wider than the seat itself.  I always try to get an aisle so I can lean a little away from the person next to me.  But not being an average size on airplanes where average is getting smaller and smaller it seems, I always feel bad about even slightly infringing upon my neighbor, yet I don't feel like I should have to buy a second seat.  

I will also tell you that not every seat belt is the same length.  While I have no issue with 99% of the seats I have traveled on, occasionally I have encountered a "what the hell happened to the seatbelt"  seat.  Where it must have broke and they repaired it but now it is 4 inches shorter than most every other seatbelt on the plane.  So seatbelt extenders, while perhaps embarrassing, do happen to those who generally don't need them. 

So what is there to do????

I have heels on in this photo, so I am likely 6'3", you would never guess I was that tall from this photo.


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## Ty1on (Feb 21, 2017)

Sandy VDH said:


> I am not morbidly obese (hey I've lost a bunch of weight), nor do I smell (well at least no one has said so, hahaha), but I often do feel sorry for the folks sitting net to me.  I am a 6" tall, sturdily build (read big bone, big frame) women of dutch decent.  I am not the tall stick figure model sized person.   I got both the tall genes and the big boned genes, one from either side of my family.
> 
> I fit in an emergency row seat with non-movable arm rests, but just, however my shoulders/arms are likely going to be just a tad bit wider than the seat itself.  I always try to get an aisle so I can lean a little away from the person next to me.  But not being an average size on airplanes where average is getting smaller and smaller it seems, I always feel bad about even slightly infringing upon my neighbor, yet I don't feel like I should have to buy a second seat.
> 
> ...





Second seat fares are not designed for you, they are designed for passengers who are morbidly obese to the point where another passenger can't sit straight up next to them, as described in the OP.  I personally wish they would charge this every time.  I don't feel like I should have to pay full fare to squeeze over to subsidize 20% of my neighbor's body roll.  Touching is one thing and it's unavoidable on today's flights.  That's different than having to hang out into the aisle.


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 21, 2017)

Sandi ...
I, too, am tall, with Dutch genes and have lost weight in past years. I am maybe 2 or so inches shorter with similar bone structure. I try to sit in aisle seats. I believe many guys have more height and broader shoulders but I carry more weight in my hips while they carry beer bellies.

Some people are way shorter, skinnier and balder than me (and you) ... that is their problem. I can get my stuff out of the overhear bin after I put it up there. I can throw a shoulder into a guy & he will say "I sorry. Are you hurt?" I put FEAR into a person sitting in the aisle seat under where I am getting my overhead suitcase out of.

As for a 'short' seatbelt .. as you sort of said, "a modified belt because it was defective" .. the plane has flight attendants who can go fetch an extension ... so the plane can takeoff and they don't have to work longer hours and get to bed later ... shorting their 'rest cycle'. 

Travelling is a major means to our vacation stays ... air flights from snow to outdoor pools are at least 3+ hours ... I will take that middle seat, drink that expensive plane beer, chomp down on stale pretzels and gagging peanuts ... and bore my seatmates to death (maybe they will buy a round of beers?)..... all to stay at my Florida timeshare for 7 nights. 

Can I do 14 nights NEXT YEAR?


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## theo (Feb 21, 2017)

dougp26364 said:


> Flying for us just isn't much fun anymore.



Methinks you have lots of company in that regard; flying isn't much fun for _*anyone*_ anymore, for the reasons you've cited --- and many more.


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## clifffaith (Feb 21, 2017)

Luckily no one who has posted has mentioned sitting in a wet-with-urine seat. The local talk radio station had this poor soul on last year. 
Was about to retell the story from memory, but found a link:  https://consumerist.com/2016/02/25/man-says-his-american-airlines-seat-was-soaked-in-urine/


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## WinniWoman (Feb 21, 2017)

I dread my flight in June to Colorado. Two hours to the airport-Newark.  Two hours to wait. 5.5 hours to Phoenix. A 2.5 hour layover. A 1.25 hour flight by small jet to Durango.  Pick up rental car. 20 minute drive to hotel. Pass out from exhaustion.

Coming home- two hours ahead at the airport and a 2 hour flight  to Dallas/Fort Worth by small jet. A 2 1/2 hour layover. Then 3.5 hour flight to Newark.

No meals on any flights. At least I was able to book aisle seats.

Then 2 hour drive by car service home. Pass out from exhaustion.

Then factor in all the times changes.

I hope it's worth it.


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## Tia (Feb 21, 2017)

Okay so I can't complain about dirty tray tables on the AA flights I just took after reading this below, YUCK nasty



clifffaith said:


> Luckily no one who has posted has mentioned sitting in a wet-with-urine seat. The local talk radio station had this poor soul on last year.
> Was about to retell the story from memory, but found a link:  https://consumerist.com/2016/02/25/man-says-his-american-airlines-seat-was-soaked-in-urine/


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## VacationForever (Feb 21, 2017)

mpumilia said:


> I dread my flight in June to Colorado. Two hours to the airport-Newark.  Two hours to wait. 5.5 hours to Phoenix. A 2.5 hour layover. A 1.25 hour flight by small jet to Durango.  Pick up rental car. 20 minute drive to hotel. Pass out from exhaustion.
> 
> Coming home- two hours ahead at the airport and a 2 hour flight  to Dallas/Fort Worth by small jet. A 2 1/2 hour layover. Then 3.5 hour flight to Newark.
> 
> ...


You will feel that it was worth it after all the hassle and stress.   Then you need another staycation to de-stress.


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## PamMo (Feb 21, 2017)

Reading through this thread is disheartening. The airlines have cut back basic services and amenities so much that we're now turning on fellow passengers?* I think the scorn and disgust should go to airlines and their policies. They are cramming people into a flying can, and squeezing every dime out of us.* I've flown millions of miles, but I'm not entitled to degrade other people who fly with me.


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## rapmarks (Feb 21, 2017)

My cousin is very overweight, and she is required to pay for two seats


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## am1 (Feb 21, 2017)

I guess it is (us) who accept these conditions.  Would moving arm rests work?  While purchasing one decides how many seat inches they want.  Price depends on how many inches one wants with each row being the same amount.


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## happymum (Feb 21, 2017)

Just flew home today, with this thread in mind. Today, we were the "annoying party". For various reasons, DH and I prefer to book aisle seats across from one another. Each half of a young married couple were on either side of us. (2-2 config), understandably, they asked if we would trade seats so that they could sit together. I declined, but felt guilty doing so.


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## am1 (Feb 21, 2017)

When two of us are flying I book aisle and window with the hopes of no wanting the middle seat.  My airline of choice flies at 80 - 82% occupancy overall so depending on the route it is easy to decide what the flight load will be.  If paying cash there is a good chance we will be upgraded so it is more then worth the downside risk.  But I would suggest the airlines only allow people that booked tickets together to sit together when possible.  Very little downside on this.


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## MuranoJo (Feb 22, 2017)

happymum said:


> Just flew home today, with this thread in mind. Today, we were the "annoying party". For various reasons, DH and I prefer to book aisle seats across from one another. Each half of a young married couple were on either side of us. (2-2 config), understandably, they asked if we would trade seats so that they could sit together. I declined, but felt guilty doing so.


This has also happened to us a couple of times.  But we selected the aisle seats ahead of time for a reason and in all cases, it was for just a couple-hour flight.  What? They can't be separated for 2 or 3 hours?  

A few times when I've flown solo and on an aisle seat I've had someone approach me to trade their middle seat with me so they could sit closer to someone they know.  No thanks.


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## WinniWoman (Feb 22, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> You will feel that it was worth it after all the hassle and stress.   Then you need another staycation to de-stress.



This is why, although I love to experience the beautiful places in our country, my favorite and most relaxing and least expensive vacations are at our home resorts within driving distance from our home.


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## WinniWoman (Feb 22, 2017)

PamMo said:


> Reading through this thread is disheartening. The airlines have cut back basic services and amenities so much that we're now turning on fellow passengers?* I think the scorn and disgust should go to airlines and their policies. They are cramming people into a flying can, and squeezing every dime out of us.* I've flown millions of miles, but I'm not entitled to degrade other people who fly with me.




This is so right on. This is all the fault of the airlines. 

I remember my first flight (to Puerto Rico from NY in 1973) at age 17 on a Pan Am 747 with the piano bar in the back. The lovely stewardesses catering to each and every passenger. No checked baggage fees. Anywhere on the plane was a decent seat. Wonderful experience. Then- in 1977 for our honeymoon to San Fransisco/ 4 Hawaiian islands/Las Vegas- all good with the flights.

Downhill from there.

The last time I flew was in 2011 to Scotland and I felt so claustrophobic (not like me at all) that I vowed never to fly anywhere again. Not to mention the flight delay and other issues at the airport in the USA. 

But, alas, we have decided to give it another shot because we do want to see a few places while we still can and don't have the time or desire to drive across the country. I am trying to be optimistic.


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## FLDVCFamily (Feb 22, 2017)

If someone is spilling over into the seat I paid for, I'm going to complain to the flight attendant before we depart. Sorry, but no way is that OK. If the armrest can't come down between us, you are in my seat!!

Years ago Southwest had a show called I think "Airline" where they had a passenger of size episode. They most definitely made the lady pay for 2 seats.


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## Phydeaux (Feb 22, 2017)

PamMo said:


> Reading through this thread is disheartening. The airlines have cut back basic services and amenities so much that we're now turning on fellow passengers?* I think the scorn and disgust should go to airlines and their policies. They are cramming people into a flying can, and squeezing every dime out of us.* I've flown millions of miles, but I'm not entitled to degrade other people who fly with me.



Nope. Not from me. If you have a better business model for airlines to make a profit and remain in business so that they can continue to fly you around, please, share it with us. I'd love to see it. And specifics please.

It isn't the airlines that have chosen the lifestyle that the morbidly obese have chosen. And as I've already pointed out, no one is holding a gun to anyones head telling them to eat more. That includes the airlines. These obese people know they are obese, and know they won't fit in that seat, and have every opportunity to pay for a second seat, 1st class or business class in advance to resolve the problem. But most do not. No sympathy.

No, the blame falls squarely on the individual. I'm not buying into just another example of someone attempting to assign blame where it doesn't belong. There's way too much of that already in our society, and frankly, we are the weaker for it. Of course, you're welcome to your opinion. I just firmly disagree.


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## WinniWoman (Feb 22, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> Nope. Not from me. If you have a better business model for airlines to make a profit and remain in business so that they can continue to fly you around, please, share it with us. I'd love to see it. And specifics please.
> 
> It isn't the airlines that have chosen the lifestyle that the morbidly obese have chosen. And as I've already pointed out, no one is holding a gun to anyones head telling them to eat more. That includes the airlines. These obese people know they are obese, and know they won't fit in that seat, and have every opportunity to pay for a second seat, 1st class or business class in advance to resolve the problem. But most do not. No sympathy.
> 
> No, the blame falls squarely on the individual. I'm not buying into just another example of someone attempting to assign blame where it doesn't belong. There's way too much of that already in our society, and frankly, we are the weaker for it. Of course, you're welcome to your opinion. I just firmly disagree.



I totally get this point of view as well, but it certainly does not account for the fact the the rest of us so-called "normal"weight people (or even skinny people) (and I could stand to lose about 30-40 lbs myself) are still forced into crammed seats with little amenities on the flight and more to be eliminated going forward.


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## am1 (Feb 22, 2017)

mpumilia said:


> I totally get this point of view as well, but it certainly does not account for the fact the the rest of us so-called "normal"weight people (or even skinny people) (and I could stand to lose about 30-40 lbs myself) are still forced into crammed seats with little amenities on the flight and more to be eliminated going forward.



That is what people want as a whole.  Cheapest price possible.


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## WinniWoman (Feb 22, 2017)

am1 said:


> That is what people want as a whole.  Cheapest price possible.



Maybe. At least for short flights I can agree with that.

But I can tell you the tickets I just purchased I do not consider cheap. Especially without even a meal included.

That said, I guess maybe the answer is just don't fly so as not to be subjected to the torture the airlines put you through. If you even have that option...


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## Roger830 (Feb 22, 2017)

Two years ago when flying AA to Hawaii, we both had aisle seats and a heavy woman in the middle next to me saw us talking and asked if my wife would switch. I took the middle next to a thin man and my wife was happy to take my aisle seat. The only unhappy person was the one in the middle across the aisle after my wife moved.

Next month we're traveling to Hawaii on HA with 2-4-2 seating. That's the best with no stranger next to us.


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## Phydeaux (Feb 22, 2017)

mpumilia said:


> I totally get this point of view as well, but it certainly does not account for the fact the the rest of us so-called "normal"weight people (or even skinny people) (and I could stand to lose about 30-40 lbs myself) are still forced into crammed seats with little amenities on the flight and more to be eliminated going forward.




You've chosen to change the topic. That's fine - these forum posts have a tendency to do that, and I'm as guilty as the rest.

Thus, since you'd like to now discuss how the _airline business_ conducts their business, I will again pose the same reply: _If you have a better business model for airlines to make a profit and remain in business so that they can continue to fly you around, please, share it with us. I'd love to see it. And specifics please._

To help you get started, why not just start with answering how airlines _should_ deal with domestic/global economies, and fuel purchases. Maybe then you could comment on how you would adress shareholders, and answer their expected rate of return on invested capital (ROIC) given just the two factors above. Never mind all the rest of factors, unless you'd like to also address environmental regs and their impact, and labor. 

Thanks!


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## Pedro (Feb 22, 2017)

PamMo said:


> Reading through this thread is disheartening. The airlines have cut back basic services and amenities so much that we're now turning on fellow passengers?* I think the scorn and disgust should go to airlines and their policies. They are cramming people into a flying can, and squeezing every dime out of us.* I've flown millions of miles, but I'm not entitled to degrade other people who fly with me.



Pam, with all due respect, this is a statement I completely disagree with.  People have choices - from the airline they fly and the services they buy (larger seats, first/business class, buy-on-board food, checked luggage, refundable fares, etc.) to personal choices including how much they eat and/or how much they exercise.  Nobody is cramming people into an airplane - people are choosing to do so.  Also, just the fact the somebody is pointing out that somebody is overweight does not mean they are being scorned.

People might complain that airlines charge for checked luggage, but I am happy that they do if that means that the people that do not require that service end up with a cheaper ticket.  The other option would be to raise all fares so nobody would have to pay extra for checked luggage, food, larger seats, etc.  However, most people buy the cheapest ticket they can, followed by some complaining that they have to pay extra for ancillary services.  Bottom line is "you can't have your cake and eat it too."

Flying back to Florida yesterday (5+ hours flight), the person across the aisle from me was thoughtful enough to get a business class seat, in which he barely fit in while needing two seatbelt extensions. There is no way he would have fit in any economy class seat.


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## Ty1on (Feb 22, 2017)

mpumilia said:


> Maybe. At least for short flights I can agree with that.
> 
> But I can tell you the tickets I just purchased I do not consider cheap. Especially without even a meal included.
> 
> That said, I guess maybe the answer is just don't fly so as not to be subjected to the torture the airlines put you through. If you even have that option...



You make a very good point.  It may not be this way, but it "feels" like they take away frills, give you a discounted price, then the price creeps back up to where it had been before the benefit was taken away.

I remember when they started reducing the ice cream container size from a quart down to 24oz.  The price had been, say, $4.00, and went down to $3.50.  Within two months, price was back up to $4.00. So now we get 3 cups for the price of 4.  I hate feeling like I'm being manipulated.


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## Phydeaux (Feb 22, 2017)

Comparing the airline industry to ice cream.... 

Perhaps after a few more complainers, we'll get someone to offer a few solutions, but I doubt it.


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## "Roger" (Feb 22, 2017)

With regard to the general topic of airline comfort and who is at fault ...

Wisconsin used to have an airline (Midwest Express) that provided wider seats and good food. To cite one experience, I was flying from Florida to Milwaukee and was seated next to a person who had an executive job with a competing airline. (For obvious reasons, he did not name which one.) His wife had a heart condition and because of that he decided to fly from Florida to Milwaukee and then board a second flight from Milwaukee to New York rather than take a direct flight to New York on his own airline. He  cited the flight conditions as the reason for making these arrangements.

Sometimes tickets on Midwest Express were no more expensive than other options, but more often, maybe fifteen percent higher. Midwest Express has now been out of business for years. People voted with their wallet and chose brutal conditions over comfort. (I remember seeing newspaper articles when a competing airline might begin service between Milwaukee and X with people saying "Wonderful, can't wait, don't have to pay the higher prices of Midwest.")

Consider this an economic experiment in offering better services. People vote contrary to what they say they desire. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and it is us."


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## VacationForever (Feb 22, 2017)

I do wish there is a good airline that charges more - 30 to 100% more, that actually provides bigger seats that are comfortable for an average size person, food and service.  If someone who does not fit the "dimension", the person still has to buy 2 seats or there are "upsized" seats on the plane for more.  If there is good demand, that may change the paradigm of airline bosses.  I fly business and first class because I want larger seats, food, service and space between people.  I have no complaints for the amount that I pay.  The issue is that most people want to pay as little as they can and the airlines are all competing in prices and the end result is smaller seats, less service and no food.  I flew Southwest recently as that is the only non-stop flight and the toilet was the smallest that I have used.  I am tall and average built - to some, I would be called slim.  I do not know how someone even a tad larger than I can actually turn their body in that space.


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## Phydeaux (Feb 22, 2017)

"Roger" said:


> With regard to the general topic of airline comfort and who is at fault ...
> 
> Wisconsin used to have an airline (*Midwest Express*) that provided wider seats and good food. To cite one experience, I was flying from Florida to Milwaukee and was seated next to a person who had an executive job with a competing airline. (For obvious reasons, he did not name which one.) His wife had a heart condition and because of that he decided to fly from Florida to Milwaukee and then board a second flight from Milwaukee to New York rather than take a direct flight to New York on his own airline. He  cited the flight conditions as the reason for making these arrangements.
> 
> ...



Ah, those were the days! I sure miss their complimentary champagne on the AM flights and wine on afternoon/evening flights. Stainless flatware, and truly great meals. Had lobster on a few flights from Boston to MKE. No, I didn't pay more. Back in those days, business travel, I purchased back-to-back tickets and essentially flew for free on one of the two flights I purchased at any given time. Or, I threw the second round trip ticket in the garbage, or gave it away to a friend. Those _were_ the days...


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## SueDonJ (Feb 22, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> Comparing the airline industry to ice cream....
> 
> Perhaps after a few more complainers, we'll get someone to offer a few solutions, but I doubt it.



Man, you are just one shiny ray of sunshine, aren't you?!  I get exhausted reading you.

The airlines aren't going to change until we force them to change, and that means enough of us have to hit them in their pocketbooks.  That means we have to be willing to stop all non-essential flying, or, aggressively pepper all social media with legitimate horror stories that force the airlines to publicly acknowledge that they've had to compensate passengers, or, hound your legislators to force the airlines to provide service that's more than a step above cattle-herding.

I can't even begin to say how disgusted I am by some of the comments in this thread related to obesity.  I'm 5'2"/120 and in all my life my highest weight of 153 when I was 9 months pregnant, but that doesn't mean I can't empathize with the people in this world who have emotional _and physical_ afflictions that result in them having to battle demons that I can only imagine.  But by all means, the righteous should continue with their shaming because we all know how well that serves society.  Gah, I'm sickened.


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## BellaWyn (Feb 22, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> Comparing the airline industry to ice cream....
> 
> Perhaps after a few more complainers, we'll get someone to offer a few solutions, but I doubt it.


Don't think Ty1on was making a comparison between industries.  It was an analogy about price creap using the ice cream industry as an example.  Price creap, regardless of which industry, is still a type of consumer manipulation, which can be irksome, and the airline industry is no exception to this tactic.


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## Phydeaux (Feb 22, 2017)

OK, I'll try again:

_If you have a better business model for airlines to make a profit and remain in business so that they can continue to fly you around, please, share it with us. I'd love to see it. And specifics please._

To help you get started, why not just start with answering how airlines _should_ deal with domestic/global economies, and fuel purchases. Maybe then you could comment on how you would adress shareholders, and answer their expected rate of return on invested capital (ROIC) given just the two factors above. Never mind all the rest of factors, unless you'd like to also address environmental regs and their impact, and labor. 

==============

Can we agree - complaining or criticizing without offering alternatives or solutions amounts to whining.


----------



## Phydeaux (Feb 22, 2017)

SueDonJ said:


> Man, you are just one shiny ray of sunshine, aren't you?!  1. *I get exhausted reading you.*
> 
> The airlines aren't going to change until we force them to change, and that means enough of us have to hit them in their pocketbooks.  That means we have to be willing to stop all non-essential flying, or, aggressively pepper all social media with legitimate horror stories that 2, *force the airlines to publicly acknowledge that they've had to compensate passengers*, or, 3.*hound your legislators to force the airlines to provide service that's more than a step above cattle-herding.*
> 
> I can't even begin to say how disgusted I am by some of the comments in this thread related to obesity.  I'm 5'2"/120 and in all my life my highest weight of 153 when I was 9 months pregnant, but that doesn't mean I can't empathize with the people in this world who have emotional _and physical_ afflictions that result in them having to battle demons that I can only imagine.  But by all means, 4. *the righteous should continue with their shaming* because we all know how well that serves society.  *Gah, I'm sickened*.



First, you don't need to read my posts. You can block them, or simply skip over them.

Second, I don't understand what that statement means. Care to explain, please?

Third, huh? Could you please expound on how _legislators_ can force airlines to change their service? Details, please. 

Fourth, you've chosen to impose and interject your emotions into a discussion that has nothing to do with emotions.


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## SueDonJ (Feb 22, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> ... Could you please expound on how _legislators_ can force airlines to change their service? Details, please. ...



Sure, expand on this to include a reasonable level of comfort for all passengers.


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## BellaWyn (Feb 22, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> Can we agree - complaining or criticizing without offering alternatives or solutions amounts to whining.
> 
> OK, I'll try again:
> 
> ...


In a hard core corporate setting, sure, where we get PAID to solve problems.  But this is a not that and the throw down snarky condescending posturing is a little over the top.  Breathe.....  then try to chillax. 

Solving the airline industry business model problems is not the OT of this thread, it's the evolution of it and pretty sure there is no expectation that it will get solved here in TUG.  So, maybe, don't "try again" and make some room for other posters to say what they want to say without an attack.  Shove over kiddo, you're taking up two seats....... and only paid for one.


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## PamMo (Feb 22, 2017)

The OP asked for ideas on how to tactfully handle an overcrowded seating situation on a flight. Having Canadian parents and growing up in the Midwest, “nice” is my default.

I’m suggesting that the angst shown towards overweight or tall people who encroach on your seat, armchair, or aisle space, is misplaced. (Being selfish and rude is a different matter.) Americans have an obesity problem, but the average Premium Economy seat is the same size or smaller than the standard economy seat in the 1990’s. It seems obvious that there will be crowding. So yeah, I sort of have a problem with a business model that makes customers uncomfortable so they can be sold upcharges for previously normal sized seats, families sitting together, a checked bag, carry on bag, early boarding for access to now very crowded storage bins, etc. As a consumer, I’m not really concerned about the airline posting another year of fantastic profits for their shareholders. The North American airline industry is doing just fine. It’s expected to have its eighth solid year of profitability in 2017, thanks to consolidation, lower fuel costs, increased capacity, and additional fees (which are not taxed and regulated like fares). Their net profit margin of 8.5% far outpaces the airline industry in Europe and Asia-Pacific (2.9%), Latin America (.7%) and the Middle East (.5%). I’m all for a business making a profit, but consumers shouldn’t give airlines a free pass when they intentionally make flying uncomfortable. My complaints will be directed to the airline, not the poor fellow crammed into the seat next to me.


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## WinniWoman (Feb 22, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> You've chosen to change the topic. That's fine - these forum posts have a tendency to do that, and I'm as guilty as the rest.
> 
> Thus, since you'd like to now discuss how the _airline business_ conducts their business, I will again pose the same reply: _If you have a better business model for airlines to make a profit and remain in business so that they can continue to fly you around, please, share it with us. I'd love to see it. And specifics please._
> 
> ...




No reason to get testy. I was just reiterating the realities of flying these days as posted by some others. I don't profess to know anything about running an airline business. I am just commenting from the point of view of a lowly customer.


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## WinniWoman (Feb 22, 2017)

You probably have heard about American now offering  economy seats for supposedly a lesser fare and no access to an overhead bin. No seat selection either. Soon that fare will be what regular economy fare is now. Just wait for it...


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## silentg (Feb 22, 2017)

I had a similar problem but it was a heavy set person behind me, my chair would not recline an inch. The person in front of me reclined his seat to the point of me looking up his nose. I tried to cope, but felt squished. The flight attendant relocated the man behind me, he grumbled but complied. It was a long flight too, overnight from Orlando to Dublin.
Silentg


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## BellaWyn (Feb 22, 2017)

PamMo said:


> The OP asked for ideas on how to tactfully handle an overcrowded seating situation on a flight. Having Canadian parents and growing up in the Midwest, “nice” is my default.
> 
> I’m suggesting that the angst shown towards overweight or tall people who encroach on your seat, armchair, or aisle space, is misplaced. (Being selfish and rude is a different matter.) Americans have an obesity problem, but the average Premium Economy seat is the same size or smaller than the standard economy seat in the 1990’s. It seems obvious that there will be crowding. So yeah, I sort of have a problem with a business model that makes customers uncomfortable so they can be sold upcharges for previously normal sized seats, families sitting together, a checked bag, carry on bag, early boarding for access to now very crowded storage bins, etc. As a consumer, I’m not really concerned about the airline posting another year of fantastic profits for their shareholders. The North American airline industry is doing just fine. It’s expected to have its eighth solid year of profitability in 2017, thanks to consolidation, lower fuel costs, increased capacity, and additional fees (which are not taxed and regulated like fares). Their net profit margin of 8.5% far outpaces the airline industry in Europe and Asia-Pacific (2.9%), Latin America (.7%) and the Middle East (.5%). I’m all for a business making a profit, but consumers shouldn’t give airlines a free pass when they intentionally make flying uncomfortable. My complaints will be directed to the airline, not the poor fellow crammed into the seat next to me.



. Well stated "complaint" with no hard solution presented.  Thank you!  

Sometimes, this is the kind of presented information that brings quality "food for thought" that will help the collective.  This is the beauty of TUG, to share these thoughts.  And this is one I can whole heartedly agree with!!


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## x3 skier (Feb 22, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> I do wish there is a good airline that charges more - 30 to 100% more, that actually provides bigger seats that are comfortable for an average size person, food and service............I fly business and first class because I want larger seats, food, service and space between people.  I have no complaints for the amount that I pay.



I think you found the 30-100% solution, called First Class. Makes too much sense for this thread

On the topic of the obese taking "my" space, I immediately ask the Flight Attendant to reseat the person or me or please call the gate agent to rebook me. Only had to do that a couple times and things worked out for me quite well. I really don't care if the other person or I get moved but I'm not going to share my seat with a stranger.

Cheers


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## Phydeaux (Feb 22, 2017)

mpumilia said:


> *No reason to get testy.* I was just reiterating the realities of flying these days as posted by some others. I don't profess to know anything about running an airline business. I am just commenting from the point of view of a lowly customer.





mpumilia said:


> That said, I guess *maybe the answer is just don't fly so as not to be subjected to the torture the airlines put you through.* If you even have that option...



No reason for the drama, and to over exaggerate, again.


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## Kal (Feb 22, 2017)

PamMo said:


> The OP asked for ideas on how to tactfully handle an overcrowded seating situation on a flight..... My complaints will be directed to the airline, not the poor fellow crammed into the seat next to me.


The "poor fellow" is OBESE and should not pawn his problem on me or the airline.  He has options including purchasing two seats.  The situation I described was not one person, but TWO.  He and his wife are both OBESE.  His wife in the window seat overflowed into his middle seat, thus he could only wallow into my seat.  The option there would be not to sit together.  Sorry about not sitting next to his sweetie, but that's an option for the porcine pair.


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## heathpack (Feb 22, 2017)

Haha I am still traumatized by that flight of mine next to the obese lady!

I have since made it a point to fly first or business class whenever possible.  On FF miles of course.

We went up Scotland last September in part for me to attend a work conference.  "Ok, I'll go," I told my boss, "but only if I can fly first class." That was one sweet flight experience. I actually looked forward to the flight home, what a treat.

But then I flew coach to NY in Dec though when my mom got sick.  Last minute thing, didn't have the miles.  OMG pro tip: don't fly between self-absorbed NYC and self-absorbed LA on Christmas Day.  Self absorbed people don't like to discipline their children on a normal day, no way are they going to do it on Christmas Day!  Ugh.

Nowadays I'd rather fly less frequently with a more pleasant flight experience if that's what it takes to have an enjoyable flight.

PS I have two words for y'all:  Concorde Room.  Google it, you'll see what I'm getting at.


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## MOXJO7282 (Feb 22, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> Phydeaux happens to know just a bit about this subject, having been on a professional team that treated the obese in the medical field. No, they were undoubtedly *overfed* identically. Science is rather pure on this subject.


This is absolutely not true as I've read numerous studies that suggest the morbidly obese have more than just bad choices that make them fat.  Are you a doctor or scientist? Or just a clinic worker?


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## Phydeaux (Feb 22, 2017)

[Deleted:  Folks - this is a contentious social issue, so if you can't be courteous in your posts, I'm going to close the thread.]


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## WinniWoman (Feb 22, 2017)

MOXJO7282 said:


> This is absolutely not true as I've read numerous studies that suggest the morbidly obese have more than just bad choices that make them fat.  Are you a doctor or scientist? Or just a clinic worker?



Agree. And I was a Wellness Director for a hospital based weight loss program. Obesity is a complex medical condition based on many factors such as heredity, metabolism, medical conditions like diabetes, the nervous system, nutrition, mobility/activity level, fat cells, emotions, and of course, all the unknowns.


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## Cropman (Feb 22, 2017)

Please, I don't have Facebook because of less than this.  Can we get back to timeshares or stay on the subject posted?  Time and place.  And this isn't the time or the place.  PLEASE KNOCK IT OFF!


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## zinger1457 (Feb 22, 2017)

Cropman said:


> Please, I don't have Facebook because of less than this.  Can we get back to timeshares or stay on the subject posted?  Time and place.  And this isn't the time or the place.  PLEASE KNOCK IT OFF!



Nice try but probably in vain, unfortunately it's become the norm for most online forums.


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## BellaWyn (Feb 22, 2017)

zinger1457 said:


> Nice try but probably in vain, unfortunately it's become the norm for most online forums.


Disagree.  This is TUG, we can be better than "other" online forums.  We just have to choose to be better. 

Or a moderator will help us, gratefully.


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## zinger1457 (Feb 22, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> Disagree.  This is TUG, we can be better than "other" online forums.  We just have to choose to be better.
> 
> Or a moderator will help us, gratefully.



You've been a member here since 2009, hope you're not holding your breath waiting for change.


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## Jan M. (Feb 22, 2017)

Well threads often tend to get off topic for a bit and this thread is in the TUG Lounge so open topics. And at least no one is posting how they make $$$ per hour doing whatever it is that they do and you should sign up to do the same. LOL


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## DeniseM (Feb 22, 2017)

Off topic is fine in this forum, but unfortunately, it's always the same handful of people who cannot just debate the issue, but must be rude and condescending to people they don't agree with.


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## BellaWyn (Feb 23, 2017)

zinger1457 said:


> You've been a member here since 2009, hope you're not holding your breath waiting for change.


1) Still breathing
2) Still posting
3) Still believe in Humanity
4) Still choosing not to be a troll

C'mon Zinger, you could Human better than this.


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## VacationForever (Feb 23, 2017)

I was on a full flight on Southwest Airlines yesterday, seated next to a slim and tall guy, who decided to spread his legs throughout the flight.  I did not want to confront him, just kept my legs closed together and away from his.  He was eating a large pizza when I sat next to him and after I sat down, I realized he smelled quite bad.  Decided to tough it out, and as soon as he finished his pizza, he crossed his arms, spread his legs and went to sleep.  Oh, he was a snorer too... My husband wanted to ask him to move his legs and I told him not to.  I toughed it out for a little over an hour... The picture was taken an angle and it does not fully show how much his legs were in my space.


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## Ty1on (Feb 23, 2017)

I'm with your husband.  I would have said something.  I try to be considerate of those squeezed into the can with me, and expect a modicum of consideration from others.  Too bad they won't let you carry lysol onboard.


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## moonstone (Feb 23, 2017)

Ty1on said:


> I'm with your husband.  I would have said something.  I try to be considerate of those squeezed into the can with me, and expect a modicum of consideration from others.  Too bad they won't let you carry lysol onboard.



I have tiny (about 1.5 or 2 inches high) cans of aerosol air fresheners that I found at our dollar store. They come in many different aromas.  They fit neatly into my purse or toiletries bag & I have used them in public restrooms more than once. I have taken it in my quart bag on flights but thankfully have never had to use it!


~Diane


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## VacationForever (Feb 23, 2017)

moonstone said:


> I have tiny (about 1.5 or 2 inches high) cans of aerosol air fresheners that I found at our dollar store. They come in many different aromas.  They fit neatly into my purse or toiletries bag & I have used them in public restrooms more than once. I have taken it in my quart bag on flights but thankfully have never had to use it!
> 
> 
> ~Diane


I believe aerosol cans are now prohibited on planes!?


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## Ty1on (Feb 23, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> I believe aerosol cans are now prohibited on planes!?



Yeah, but they probably don't even notice a mini air freshener in someone's purse.


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## moonstone (Feb 23, 2017)

Ty1on said:


> Yeah, but they probably don't even notice a mini air freshener in someone's purse.



If I bring it on a flight with no checked bag it is in full view in my 1 quart liquids bag. Never had anybody take a second look at it. 
I just pulled it out of my toiletries bag, it is Glade Ultra & there is no weight or capacity on the container (was probably on the outer packaging). It is only good for about 20 really quick sprays and if the canister exploded I doubt it would do much damage.

~Diane


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## Tia (Feb 24, 2017)

Just talked to a friend last night who was on a recent Delta flight, middle seat, with a larger person window seat and and a huge person flowing into her space had the aisle . She had no arm rest either side.  She called after the flight to c/o and got told she should of spoke up and told they would of put her on another flight. They gave her some air miles to compensate. She couldn't understand why they would not put the person who was taking up some of her space on another flight rather then her.


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## Passepartout (Feb 24, 2017)

If we've learned NOTHING on this subject after over 110 posts, I think we can all agree that if you don't say something AT THE TIME your space is being compromised, the airline can't do anything to remedy the situation. You can push the call button for a flight attendant, you can inject some humor into it (best John Wayne accent: "Mister, this here seat ain't big enough for the two of us.") But the worst thing you can do if you expect some remediation is to sit silently and suffer. THE AIRLINE WILL LET YOU!

Jim


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## BellaWyn (Feb 24, 2017)

Passepartout said:


> If we've learned NOTHING on this subject after over 110 posts, I think we can all agree that if you don't say something AT THE TIME your space is being compromised, the airline can't do anything to remedy the situation. You can push the call button for a flight attendant, you can inject some humor into it (best John Wayne accent: "Mister, this here seat ain't big enough for the two of us.") But the worst thing you can do if you expect some remediation is to sit silently and suffer. THE AIRLINE WILL LET YOU!
> Jim


Not speaking up in uncomfortable situations and just "riding it out" is pretty much true of most situations, not just plane rides.  Unless you are sweating buckets or flailing about in distress, nobody will care about your discomfort *but you.
*
Am a huge advocate of being polite in socially awkward situations, but not at the expense of a lengthy window of agonizing discomfort.  There are many polite ways of requesting a change but nothing will happen if you don't speak up.


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## clifffaith (Feb 24, 2017)

Tia said:


> Just talked to a friend last night who was on a recent Delta flight, middle seat, with a larger person window seat and and a huge person flowing into her space had the aisle . She had no arm rest either side.  She called after the flight to c/o and got told she should of spoke up and told they would of put her on another flight. They gave her some air miles to compensate. She couldn't understand why they would not put the person who was taking up some of her space on another flight rather then her.



So your friend fits in her space but has to take another flight if she points out (at the time of the flight) someone is overflowing into it. Unbelievable!  And I'm not some skinny whinny, I'd have to lose 70 pounds to get down to my marriage weight, but I for darn sure fit in an airline seat. I call myself "fat" and Cliff regularly says to me "look around, you are not fat compared to many folks, no matter that you should lose at least 40 pounds to see if that helps your back issues".  I don't know what the answer is, and I bet if I complained I'd be the "fat" person that had to get off the flight.  

BTW, I think "old people" shouldn't get to sit in the exit row. On our way to Hawaii last month I'm looking across the exit row we were sitting in to a woman that had to be at least 75 (I'm 61, I compared her wrinkles to mine). She might very well be able to open that door and move much more quickly than I, but there ought to be an age cut off. In fact we shouldn't have been sitting there with Cliff being two months shy of 79 -- the airline doesn't know that he regularly carries 50 pound  boxes of blinds in our business.  I think there should be an age cut off for the exit row to relieve the flight attendant from having to make a visual determination. She booted our butts quickly enough on the return trip when I showed up walking with a cane (needed for distance at the airport, performing exit row duties would have been no issue but she was right to move us).  And we are glad she did -- Airbus A321 has two exit rows in the middle, one behind the other, and the row behind, IMHO, has no more leg room than a regular row. Only the person sitting in the window seat in that row has leg room because there is no seat in front of him. We were much more comfortable in a row further back with an empty seat between us. I swear there was more distance to the seat in front of us there.


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## am1 (Feb 24, 2017)

Tia said:


> Just talked to a friend last night who was on a recent Delta flight, middle seat, with a larger person window seat and and a huge person flowing into her space had the aisle . She had no arm rest either side.  She called after the flight to c/o and got told she should of spoke up and told they would of put her on another flight. They gave her some air miles to compensate. She couldn't understand why they would not put the person who was taking up some of her space on another flight rather then her.



The middle should always get two arm rests.  

Thankfully I have never had this issue on a plane.  But the thought of some strangers invading my space for hours is horrifying.


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## x3 skier (Feb 24, 2017)

clifffaith said:


> BTW, I think "old people" shouldn't get to sit in the exit row. On our way to Hawaii last month I'm looking across the exit row we were sitting in to a woman that had to be at least 75 (I'm 61, I compared her wrinkles to mine). She might very well be able to open that door and move much more quickly than I, but there ought to be an age cut off. In fact we shouldn't have been sitting there with Cliff being two months shy of 79 -- the airline doesn't know that he regularly carries 50 pound  boxes of blinds in our business.  I think there should be an age cut off for the exit row to relieve the flight attendant from having to make a visual determination.



What a silly idea. I'm 75, ski 40 days a year, cycle regularly, go to the gym at least 5 times a week and sit in the exit row. I doubt the airlines want to invite a suit by instituting such a rule. Besides, FA's are more than capable of determining who can or cannot function properly in opening an emergency exit. 

Cheers


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## Jan M. (Feb 24, 2017)

Common courtesies cost nothing. When I have an aisle or window seat I always let the person in the middle seat have the armrest between us! When I sit in the middle if the armrest is offered to me by my fellow passengers on either side then I take turns, only using it for half of the flight. Sometimes the person in the window seat is leaning against the window sleeping for the greater part of the flight in which case I feel free to use that armrest for as long as they are sleeping leaving the armrest on my other side open. Upon occasion I've been seated next to men who although not fat are big guys through the chest and shoulders. I've sat through 2.5 hour flights with my arms crossed over my middle and had no chance of using the armrest but it wasn't a big deal. Once I'm settled in my seat with my noise cancelling headphones, my neck pillow and my book, I'm good. I'm less understanding when someone takes the whole armrest for the entire flight not out of actual need but just because they are inconsiderate.

When I have the middle or aisle seat I tell the other people in my row not to hesitate to wake me if they need to use the restroom or stretch as I usually fall asleep quite easily on the planes and don't even have to be tired. I say that I'm always happy for the chance to stand up and stretch so they are not inconveniencing me in the slightest. IMO it is just so rude to make anyone feel bad for having to ask to use the restroom.

I will insist on moving seats right away before the flight takes off if someone around me has bathed in perfume or cologne. I don't need a migraine!


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## BellaWyn (Feb 25, 2017)

Jan M. said:


> Common courtesies cost nothing. When I have an aisle or window seat I always let the person in the middle seat have the armrest between us! When I sit in the middle if the armrest is offered to me by my fellow passengers on either side then I take turns, only using it for half of the flight. Sometimes the person in the window seat is leaning against the window sleeping for the greater part of the flight in which case I feel free to use that armrest for as long as they are sleeping leaving the armrest on my other side open. Upon occasion I've been seated next to men who although not fat are big guys through the chest and shoulders. I've sat through 2.5 hour flights with my arms crossed over my middle and had no chance of using the armrest but it wasn't a big deal. Once I'm settled in my seat with my noise cancelling headphones, my neck pillow and my book, I'm good. I'm less understanding when someone takes the whole armrest for the entire flight not out of actual need but just because they are inconsiderate.
> 
> When I have the middle or aisle seat I tell the other people in my row not to hesitate to wake me if they need to use the restroom or stretch as I usually fall asleep quite easily on the planes and don't even have to be tired. I say that I'm always happy for the chance to stand up and stretch so they are not inconveniencing me in the slightest. IMO it is just so rude to make anyone feel bad for having to ask to use the restroom.
> 
> I will insist on moving seats right away before the flight takes off if someone around me has bathed in perfume or cologne. I don't need a migraine!


Aroma migraines are the worst!  Hate those and they are a bear to get rid of because that aroma memory gets stuck in your olfactory system. Ditto to insisting on a move because of an intense aroma due to cologne masking.

Would be more willing to endure a physical spacial intrusion than one that messes with my brain chemistries. I can handle people bumping or unintentionally touching me more than I can putting myself at risk for migraine.

Migraine + altitude pressures = NO Bueno!


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