# Exchanging seems too good to be true



## ski_sierra (Apr 11, 2019)

I have been reading a few threads where people were able to stay at extremely nice properties by exchanging their properties with much lower MFs. 

It almost feels too good to be true. I understand it doesn't happen consistently. But many people consistently trade into resorts with much higher MF and buy in costs than their own.

I just wonder how this is possible? The owner paid a lot of money to have that week. They could rent it out instead of paying an exchange company. It seems like not everyone wants to put the work into renting their nice week out. It should be much easier since AirBNB has become so popular. Not sure how people rented things out before.

Or some people who own timeshares are too rich/busy and don't even bother to use their week. And savvy TUGgers get to enjoy it.

It's pretty amazing to leverage your knowledge and get way more than you spend. I'd love to hear your insights on what makes this system work.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Apr 11, 2019)

ski_sierra said:


> I have been reading a few threads where people were able to stay at extremely nice properties by exchanging their properties with much lower MFs.
> It almost feels too good to be true. I understand it doesn't happen consistently. But many people consistently trade into resorts with much higher MF and buy in costs than their own.
> It's pretty amazing to leverage your knowledge and get way more than you spend. I'd love to hear your insights on what makes this system work.



Exchanging allows for a form of arbitrage . When used well you have an opportunity to have the results
you have noticed reading TUG threads .

A historic example was the South African resorts termed” tiger traders “ . For a period of time RCI gave higher TPU’s to these resorts AND the MF cost when paid in USD was quite low due to currency exchange rates .

This history was something I learned reading TUG / as it predates my knowledgeable timesharing .
If you go to the International Forum you will still see occasional posts by TUG members who still own them (and likely have never been there). I believe an average one currently gets about 15 TPU’s for a MF
of $ 300 range .


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## echino (Apr 11, 2019)

Most of the inventory available for exchange at branded resorts comes from developer deposits, not from regular timeshares owners.


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## alwysonvac (Apr 11, 2019)

ski_sierra said:


> Or some people who own timeshares are too rich/busy and don't even bother to use their week. And savvy TUGgers get to enjoy it.



Normally, folks will try to rent their high demand weeks. But keep in mind not all weeks are in demand. For example, most folks want to visit a ski resort during peak ski season or visit a beach resort during peak summer season.

Some owners will decide to deposit their high demand weeks into an exchange company if they can’t find a renter in time so they can get some sort of use out of their week.
​Here’s what I wrote in an older thread about renting.

*There are lots of folks who rent their timeshare regularly but just be aware renting is not as easy as it sounds.*
_Definitely read the HOW TO articles if you decide to go down this path_

_Rental Advice - http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/free-timeshare-owner-advice-articles.html_
_Timeshare Scams & Fairy Tales that target Owners - http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare_scams_revealed.html_
_NOTE:TUG Moderator DeniseM has a rental service, she might be able to help you rent some points - http://www.denisetravels.com/rentalservices.htm_​_Here are some things, you'll want to consider if you're planning to rent._

_First, you'll want to rent a high demand week at a high demand resort. However high demand weeks are the first to be reserved by owners, so you have to select a week to rent with hopes that a renter will be willing to accept your travel dates. Here's a thread with some helpful renting tips - Newbie Question - My units are not renting! Why?_

_As the landlord, you may have to deal with_
_- the hagglers (you know the type, if it was marked 25 cents they would ask if you would accept 5 cents and sometimes it's down right insulting)_
_- the sad stories (those wanting you to drop your prices because their family can't afford your rate and they really want a vacation)_
_- the tire kickers (who will ask you all sorts of questions with no intent of renting)_
_- the scammers (fake checks, advertisers, etc)_
_- renters that don't understand timeshares and expect the same results as booking a hotel.  (may not be able to change the travel date, no daily housekeeping, etc)_
_- renters expecting you to resolve their resort issues or expect compensation for problems encountered during their stay_

_Some of the TUG stories over the years_
_- Someone is trolling the classified ads, trying to steal personal information_
_- Renter wants my bank info to wire me money_
_- Charge back from Paypal for rental -- after renter checked in_
_- What would you do? [renter wants to cancel]_
_- GERMAN COCKROACH in HAWAII! Is RENTER due COMPENSATION? THANKS for ADVICE._
_- A Warning to Renters! [last minute' rentals, then stiffs you with a bad check]_
_- Are you responsible for renters who skip bills?_
_- Any experience with a non-paying renter?_
_- First Issue Renting my Timeshares_
_- Can I get my money back?_
_- Feedback please! (bad rental?)_​


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## bnoble (Apr 11, 2019)

ski_sierra said:


> But many people consistently trade into resorts with much higher MF and buy in costs than their own.


Many of the _posts you read_ are these trades. That's not the same thing.


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## mdurette (Apr 11, 2019)

As others have mentioned, some of the units are developer inventory and a lot of people can't be bothered to rent out there week (personally....I'm probably one of them)

But, also keep in mind that many of these high demand weeks you see may have been traded for another high demand.

Example:  Bob owns a great ski resort during peek winter season - but he wants to go to great resort in Hawaii instead this year.
He makes the easy exchange into Hawaii and now his high demand ski week is there for exchange for those that have the trade power to do it.

Could Bob had rented his ski week and then paid cash to stay in Hawaii?   Sure, but the easier thing for him is the quick and simple exchange.


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## chalee94 (Apr 11, 2019)

ski_sierra said:


> I have been reading a few threads where people were able to stay at extremely nice properties by exchanging their properties with much lower MFs.
> 
> It almost feels too good to be true. I understand it doesn't happen consistently. But many people consistently trade into resorts with much higher MF and buy in costs than their own.
> 
> I just wonder how this is possible?



More detail from one of those people who trades for nicer properties to limit misunderstandings:

I have a nonbranded timeshare (lower demand) that is for a fixed week at the end of June (higher demand) - also, it is for a less touristy area in NC (low demand) that is under-represented in II for trading (low supply).

So while I have found trades for HHI Marriotts in shoulder season (Sept to mid-Nov), don't assume I am trading for 4th of July - there is still usually a balanced give and take - or as II calls it, "like for like".

Marriott owners get 1st pick and I do have some flexibility on timing - I don't prefer to travel in the summer with the crowds. I also tend to be flexible on location - so if Hawaii trades are pretty limited, I can be open to seeing if there are trades available in St Kitts or St Thomas...

Also, I own DVC so I get certain perks for Disney World and have family near there in FL - so that is a common destination and trading into nicer resorts in Orlando (which is pretty over built with timeshares) is pretty easy with a little advanced planning.

So if you don't have similar flexibility and decide that you only want week 27 in Maui or bust, you might have a very different and more frustrating ownership experience. You really need to do the necessary homework before buying into any timeshare.

To sum up - resort quality is one variable, but the demand for a specific week of the year, relative supply of timeshares in an area and demand for travel to a specific area are also things that play a role in whether you have reasonable expectations of a "like for like" exchange.


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## Ddee555 (Apr 11, 2019)

I agree with what Charles said (chalee94).

The reason that I have been able to stay at Marriott Newport Coast Villas and similar quality properties with my nonbranded lower maintenance cost timeshare is because I deposit higher demand weeks (California/Hawaii summertime, etc.) and I travel off-season.


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## Eric B (Apr 11, 2019)

In addition to what has been said about high cost inventory being due to developer deposits, I believe some of the ability of folks with lower cost TS to trade into higher value units has to do with contractual arrangements between their developers and RCI or II.  For example, Vacation Village resorts do a lot of developer deposits with RCI, but some of their resorts do quite well as traders in RCI Points.  It can't be due to the low available inventory of the resorts, but instead has to be part of the u deleting arrangements that essentially set up the owner of a points-based unit as a frequent exchanger.


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## bnoble (Apr 11, 2019)

Unsolicited advice: Buying a timeshare with the expectation that you'll use it most often for exchanges in RCI, II, or elsewhere is a bad idea. It is a _particularly_ bad idea if you are new to timesharing. Yes, I do it. Yes, I've gotten some great trades. But, doing this well has taken me a ton of time spent reading, learning, and experimenting. It requires flexibility, the ability to plan combined with a willingness to be impulsive, and nerves of steel while waiting for an "important" exchange to happen. Over time, the ability to find arbitrage situations has gotten harder and I expect that trend to continue. In short: it is a recipe for disappointment.

In my opinion, the average person who wants to get involved in this vacation model would be better served buying a mini-system on the secondary market with a variety of resorts that you can imagine visiting over the next 5-7 years at least.


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## KarenP (Apr 11, 2019)

To get my great trades, I check II every day, sometimes twice or three times a day for months.  I also have the Marriott window and am looking for off season weeks.


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## ski_sierra (Apr 11, 2019)

Thanks everyone for all your replies. Things make a lot more sense now. Only successful trades are advertised and nobody brags about the failed attempts. There is a huge element of luck involved.

I only have a 10k Worldmark contract in the transfer process. I have been looking at a few other points systems like HGVC and Vistana that have appealing location to me. All of them combined have locations I'd be happy to visit for next 10 years.

It seems like the more successful approach to exchanging is go where the availability is rather than find availability for where you want to go. The sightings forum is a good way to keep up on what becomes available.


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## silentg (Apr 11, 2019)

You can also check the free exchanges on TUG marketplace. We have had several successful exchanges there.
Silentg


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 11, 2019)

We have exchanged into the Westin Maui timeshares many times with our traders in the same system (Sheraton Broadway Plantation, mostly).  I have been successful in getting inventory in mostly smaller units, but we rarely get a good ocean view, so we bought the ocean view in an ordinary resort.  We love it, though.  I mean, it's become our home on Maui for 3 weeks.  I wanted to be able to sit on the lanai and watch whales.  

I consider it to be our best buy price-wise, but our maintenance fees are high for an ordinary timeshare, so we always, always use our weeks.  We are approaching the sunset clause on that one.  I know the salespeople have been trading people into Sands of Kahana and use the sunset clause as a scare tactic to get owners out at Hono Koa.  They have some plans for Hono Koa, and I am sure it will benefit Soleil and Kainoa Properties. 

The good thing is now I can get inventory easier for whale season.  The bad thing is that Soleil Management can continue to raise our fees because less people own there.


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## bizaro86 (Apr 11, 2019)

ski_sierra said:


> Thanks everyone for all your replies. Things make a lot more sense now. Only successful trades are advertised and nobody brags about the failed attempts. There is a huge element of luck involved.
> 
> I only have a 10k Worldmark contract in the transfer process. I have been looking at a few other points systems like HGVC and Vistana that have appealing location to me. All of them combined have locations I'd be happy to visit for next 10 years.
> 
> It seems like the more successful approach to exchanging is go where the availability is rather than find availability for where you want to go. The sightings forum is a good way to keep up on what becomes available.



I agree with this assessment. I have fixed vacation times based on my wife's work. We go somewhere very nice that is an up trade over what we trade every single vacation period, and have for years. High demand locations as well (Hawaii, southern California). But I do wide open searches of dozens of places I'd be interested in going in both RCI and II for those weeks.


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## ski_sierra (Apr 11, 2019)

bizaro86 said:


> I agree with this assessment. I have fixed vacation times based on my wife's work. We go somewhere very nice that is an up trade over what we trade every single vacation period, and have for years. High demand locations as well (Hawaii, southern California). But I do wide open searches of dozens of places I'd be interested in going in both RCI and II for those weeks.



Great to know. This is very different than the traditional way of find a location to go and then find affordable accommodations. Time to build that wishlist of places to go to and let the availability make the decision for you.


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## bizaro86 (Apr 11, 2019)

ski_sierra said:


> Great to know. This is very different than the traditional way of find a location to go and then find affordable accommodations. Time to build that wishlist of places to go to and let the availability make the decision for you.



The sightings forum has a great list of II resort codes from the hotel branded groups. I went through it and filtered for things that did/didn't interest me, and use that list to search. It's a personal thing (ie east coast beaches don't interest me, but FL gulf coast does, places with direct flights from where i live are preferred, etc)


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 11, 2019)

Agree with prior posters. When people say they traded into top resorts in Maui etc. they have been very flexible with their schedules (i.e. retired/not tied to school schedules) and the trades are _typically_ not available during high season. You also run the possibility of getting the worst room in the resort e.g. a noisy dark parking lot view in Hawaii because traders get what's leftover. Some people are fine with that, and sit by the pool. Others don't want to roll the dice on view, location and season or spend time searching for it.

Some of the developers are limiting arbitrage by putting less desired inventory into the systems.  For example Disney now limits their RCI deposits to one bedrooms at SSR resort. You cannot get other resorts or 2 bedrooms anymore. Some are fine with that. YMMV.

You can always put in an OGS in RCI or II for specific properties and dates and if something comes along that is a Hail Mary trade, you can pull the trigger on the exchange.  It's like the lottery.

Lightening is nice but doesn't strike twice.

We treat our mini system, and properties as the primary plan. We view the RCI and II trades as a Hail Mary contingency plan that may come along at times and jump on it. Not the other way around. As @bnoble stated this is getting harder and harder, RCI and II are charging more for trades, Resort fees now apply and with MVC buying II, more Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt inventory will be restricted to support selling their high-margin points trust programs.


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## mdurette (Apr 11, 2019)

ski_sierra said:


> There is a huge element of luck involved.
> .



I would disagree, no luck is involved.   *TS exchanging is a game - learn the rules, play with effort and you can certainly win.*    For me....it takes time and effort.    But since I work from home most days I can easily have II and RCI running on the computer besides my work laptop to watch and learn what is going on in the exchange world.

I am flexible in the summer - but 100% tied to a school calendar the rest of the year and I trade non branded high demand weeks for branded high demand weeks.

Do I fail sometimes?    Absolutely, but not usually.


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## ski_sierra (Apr 11, 2019)

mdurette said:


> I would disagree, no luck is involved.   *TS exchanging is a game - learn the rules, play with effort and you can certainly win.*    For me....it takes time and effort.    But since I work from home most days I can easily have II and RCI running on the computer besides my work laptop to watch and learn what is going on in the exchange world.
> 
> I am flexible in the summer - but 100% tied to a school calendar the rest of the year and I trade non branded high demand weeks for branded high demand weeks.
> 
> Do I fail sometimes?    Absolutely, but not usually.



It looks like you put in quite a bit of work. I do it for other my other hobbies but not sure I could do that for timeshares. I will settle for good enough (80/20 rule). This was an interesting post from a personal finance blogger that I'm influenced by:
https://thefinancebuff.com/leave-some-money-on-the-table.html


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 11, 2019)

Reminds me of the saying: 

_"Don't let the pursuit of perfection be the enemy of the good."_


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## VacationForever (Apr 11, 2019)

Not everyone wants to rent out their weeks as there are risks associated with renting.  For simplicity many timeshare owners simply deposit their units into RCI or II so that they can have an exchange to a different location/timeshare with the assurance that the exchange is legitimate.  

Exchange fees continue to rise much faster than inflation.  An exchange in II is now $209 per exchange, with another $99 per size upgrade.  Less if it is Marriott-Marriott and Vistana-Vistana.  These fees add up quickly.  I think RCI is now $249 or more per exchange.


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## bnoble (Apr 12, 2019)

ski_sierra said:


> I do it for other my other hobbies but not sure I could do that for timeshares.


You have hit upon the essential truth of it. For most of us, this is a hobby. If we actually accounted for the time we spent on it, and valued that time even close to what it was worth, we spend MUCH more on our vacations than we are willing to admit.

But, it *is* fun...at least for me.


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## ski_sierra (Apr 13, 2019)

bnoble said:


> You have hit upon the essential truth of it. For most of us, this is a hobby. If we actually accounted for the time we spent on it, and valued that time even close to what it was worth, we spend MUCH more on our vacations than we are willing to admit.
> 
> But, it *is* fun...at least for me.



That's the feeling I had when I started reading about exchanging. I used to book international first and business class tickets using miles. I enjoyed doing the work for a while then got tired of it. Right now my favorite miles are Southwest because so little hassle is involved in booking the flights. I do still like to fly international business but will often use an award booking service as I find the $200 spent worthwhile.
https://frequentmiler.boardingarea.com/award-booking-services/


Is there a similar service available for finding exchanges? Feel free to PM if you know or have had a good/bad experience.


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## JudiZ (Apr 13, 2019)

We own a non-branded, one bedroom (4/4) the second week of July on Cape Cod. MF is $700 +/-. The listed price for rentals in the same unit through the resort is $270 a night during the week and $300 on the weekend nights (about $2100 for the week on their web site). Since I didn't want to do a private rental a few years ago, I turned it back to the resort. They rented three nights, charged me a cleaning fee and I got my MFs less $75. They don't guarantee how many days they can or will rent. It wasn't terrible but it wasn't great either.

Deposited into RCI, I get 32 points and can usually get two bedrooms for two (sometimes even three) weeks in shoulder seasons in Gold and Silver Crown resorts. Yes, it still costs an exchange fee and yes, it takes a lot of planning but, for us, it works. That, of course, is when we don't use it or rent to a friend for MF + $250 (makes us both happy).

I do see trading as a hobby but I liken it to my friends who knit, sew or make jewelry and then sell their wares and, when all is said and done, don't actually make money when their time is figured in. We never bought a place just for trading so I have a skewed view of it as well. Since, in addition to Cape Cod, we have a fixed summer week in NH that we use every year and Wyndham points, we have plenty of vacation options but, really, trading is the most "fun". Different hobbies for all!


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## Passepartout (Apr 13, 2019)

How come nobody has mentioned the additional costs of exchanging? On top of your own resort's annual maintenance, don't forget to add the better part of $100 for membership to RCI or II (unless it's included. You're still paying it, it's just not broken out as a separate charge) then there's that ~$300 exchange fee.

So, in many (most) cases, exchanging where you own for somewhere else will cost close you $400 a week more than just staying where you own. And if you're fortunate enough to own enough points or exchange power for multiple exchanges, just double (or more) that number.

Exchanging is not just a 'I'll let you use my week and I'll take yours' kind of deal.

Jim


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 13, 2019)

Also need to factor in international owners. HGVC sells many units especially in Hawaii to buyers in Japan and S. Korea. Asian owners may not have the language proficiency, commonality of time zone, nor knowledge of the U.S. rental markets to rent out their unit. A native language equivalent of TUG may not exist in these locations to educate owners as to their options.

We traded in RCI for a two story 3 bdrm OV penthouse at Lagoon Tower for July 4 week for only 5800 HGVC points (or about $1200 for the week). This unit rents for $5000 a day on the Hilton site (if you can get it).  If we used HGVC points directly it would have cost 9600 points but usually that week is booked by home week owners.

We surmised it was owned by an Asian family who traded it for something else in HGVC or RCI.  Our OGS was old and RCI lists us as trading NYC (even though we only exchange our Vegas points in RCI) so we had high priority for the trade.


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## Eric B (Apr 13, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> How come nobody has mentioned the additional costs of exchanging? On top of your own resort's annual maintenance, don't forget to add the better part of $100 for membership to RCI or II (unless it's included. You're still paying it, it's just not broken out as a separate charge) then there's that ~$300 exchange fee.
> 
> So, in many (most) cases, exchanging where you own for somewhere else will cost close you $400 a week more than just staying where you own. And if you're fortunate enough to own enough points or exchange power for multiple exchanges, just double (or more) that number.
> 
> ...



That is an essential part of determining whether or not I exchange somewhere or own there, but you should also factor in the cost of acquiring a timeshare.  Given the disparity in costs of MFs at timeshares I use and the differences between the exchange systems' fees and resort fees charged by more and more timeshares, I find it worthwhile to consider the total cost of going to a resort as a decision input rather than just seeking to avoid exchange fees.  I've actually wound up using one of my TS with a low MF to exchange into another TS or two that I own because it turned out to be a better use of my resources than using my ownership there directly on a few occasions.  Of course, there are ones that I own and go to in the week/unit I own because of how circumstances work out for those, but I don't think I would ever been a position to generalize whether that approach is the optimum for everyone because it means I've got to keep track of the differences.  If one has that type of interest, though, TS arbitrage can be beneficial.

Eric


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## VacationForever (Apr 13, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> How come nobody has mentioned the additional costs of exchanging? On top of your own resort's annual maintenance, don't forget to add the better part of $100 for membership to RCI or II (unless it's included. You're still paying it, it's just not broken out as a separate charge) then there's that ~$300 exchange fee.
> 
> So, in many (most) cases, exchanging where you own for somewhere else will cost close you $400 a week more than just staying where you own. And if you're fortunate enough to own enough points or exchange power for multiple exchanges, just double (or more) that number.
> 
> ...


I did.  See post #22.


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## Panina (Apr 13, 2019)

I have been trading many years.  I have almost always gotten in trade with II what I wanted. Even with the membership and fees it costs me less to trade then to own at most of the resort I trade into.  The key is to have a high power trading week AND putting your requests in over a year out preferable  1 1/2 to 2 years out.  Many people do not, so if a week becomes available early you will have lots less competition.  With this said I also have gotten great trades less then a year out.  I have on occasion tried a few months out with little success.


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## Laurie (Apr 14, 2019)

I've actually snagged some of my best exchanges while I was on another exchange! A hobby for the evening, after settled in from a hectic day of sight-seeing.


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## ski_sierra (Apr 14, 2019)

echino said:


> Most of the inventory available for exchange at branded resorts comes from developer deposits, not from regular timeshares owners.



Does this mean, most of the weeks that are deposited by developers are off peak weeks? I don't understand why a developer would deposit a peak week. They have an established channel to sell inventory on their hotel partner websites. I have rented timeshares from Marriott/Starwood/Hilton in the past. But even their rates in off peak are higher than what you can get with exchanging. I guess they use multiple channels to unload their inventory.

I can see how developers who don't have a strong brand can have difficulty selling their inventory. But they have booking.com, vrbo, AirBnB and the likes.



Eric B said:


> In addition to what has been said about high cost inventory being due to developer deposits, I believe some of the ability of folks with lower cost TS to trade into higher value units has to do with contractual arrangements between their developers and RCI or II.  For example, Vacation Village resorts do a lot of developer deposits with RCI, but some of their resorts do quite well as traders in RCI Points.  It can't be due to the low available inventory of the resorts, but instead has to be part of the u deleting arrangements that essentially set up the owner of a points-based unit as a frequent exchanger.



I don't understand this. How do developers benefit from the arrangement?



CalGalTraveler said:


> Also need to factor in international owners. HGVC sells many units especially in Hawaii to buyers in Japan and S. Korea. Asian owners may not have the language proficiency, commonality of time zone, nor knowledge of the U.S. rental markets to rent out their unit. A native language equivalent of TUG may not exist in these locations to educate owners as to their options.



This makes sense. Clearly involves


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## VacationForever (Apr 14, 2019)

ski_sierra said:


> Does this mean, most of the weeks that are deposited by developers are off peak weeks? I don't understand why a developer would deposit a peak week. They have an established channel to sell inventory on their hotel partner websites. I have rented timeshares from Marriott/Starwood/Hilton in the past. But even their rates in off peak are higher than what you can get with exchanging. I guess they use multiple channels to unload their inventory.


Most weeks that are deposited are indeed off peak weeks.  Expecting to snag an exchange into top resorts during peak holiday weeks or peak season is most likely going to result in disappointment.


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## bnoble (Apr 15, 2019)

ski_sierra said:


> Does this mean, most of the weeks that are deposited by developers are off peak weeks? I don't understand why a developer would deposit a peak week.


In general, yes. Most resort systems deposit only what (they believe will be) the leftovers after at least some of the internal reservation demand is satisfied. For example, Wyndham deposits Club Wyndham and WorldMark units a good couple of months after the internal club reservation period begins. So, things that book quickly internally (e.g. in Club Wyndham: summer MB oceanfront, Alexandria during school vacations, the Dells waterpark resort on weekends, etc.) never made it to the RCI space bank. As an extreme: DVC deposits almost exclusively the least popular room size of the least popular resort for internal reservations, 1BR SSR units.

On the other end of the spectrum is HGVC, which inexplicably deposits once or twice a year, well before owners can book, and including some amazing weeks. I exchanged into a 3BR Penthouse in Lagoon Tower in June several years ago. It required a huge pile of TPU, but was totally worth it. There is _no way_ I would ever have spent what it would take to rent that on the open market.


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## dickgregory (Apr 20, 2019)

bnoble said:


> Unsolicited advice: Buying a timeshare with the expectation that you'll use it most often for exchanges in RCI, II, or elsewhere is a bad idea. It is a _particularly_ bad idea if you are new to timesharing. Yes, I do it. Yes, I've gotten some great trades. But, doing this well has taken me a ton of time spent reading, learning, and experimenting. It requires flexibility, the ability to plan combined with a willingness to be impulsive, and nerves of steel while waiting for an "important" exchange to happen. Over time, the ability to find arbitrage situations has gotten harder and I expect that trend to continue. In short: it is a recipe for disappointment.
> 
> In my opinion, the average person who wants to get involved in this vacation model would be better served buying a mini-system on the secondary market with a variety of resorts that you can imagine visiting over the next 5-7 years at least.



I agree it does take a lot of time tracking down these great trade opportunities.  It seems there are much better ways to "spend" this time, particularly in the golden years.  However, it's a real shot of adrenaline when a 3-bedroom can be confirmed at the Maui Ocean Club for a Marriott efficiency unit in Florida.  Perhaps our best trade ever.  This was inside of 60 days before check-in so no step up fees by Intervals.  Woohoo!


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## alexadeparis (Apr 20, 2019)

When I first started out a dozen or so years ago, i played the exchange game more than I do now. As i had more money to invest, I tweaked my portfolio to all mini systems and now only do an occasional exchange. I let family and friends use my RCI account and keep excess Hyatt points in eee for my own occasional exchange. As i got into the nicer systems on exchange, i realized I wanted to be able to get those all the time. Its less hassle to buy where i want to go or in a system for internal bookings than to mess around with exchanges and all their rules and fees.


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## chapjim (Apr 20, 2019)

mdurette said:


> I would disagree, no luck is involved.   *TS exchanging is a game - learn the rules, play with effort and you can certainly win.*    For me....it takes time and effort.    But since I work from home most days I can easily have II and RCI running on the computer besides my work laptop to watch and learn what is going on in the exchange world.



I'm trying to think of a game where no luck is involved.  Learning the rules and expending effort increase one's chances of winning but if that's all it took, it wouldn't be a game.


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## alwysonvac (Apr 21, 2019)

bnoble said:


> In general, yes. Most resort systems deposit only what (they believe will be) the leftovers after at least some of the internal reservation demand is satisfied. For example, Wyndham deposits Club Wyndham and WorldMark units a good couple of months after the internal club reservation period begins. So, things that book quickly internally (e.g. in Club Wyndham: summer MB oceanfront, Alexandria during school vacations, the Dells waterpark resort on weekends, etc.) never made it to the RCI space bank. As an extreme: DVC deposits almost exclusively the least popular room size of the least popular resort for internal reservations, 1BR SSR units.
> 
> On the other end of the spectrum is HGVC, which inexplicably deposits once or twice a year, well before owners can book, and including some amazing weeks. I exchanged into a 3BR Penthouse in Lagoon Tower in June several years ago. It required a huge pile of TPU, but was totally worth it. There is _no way_ I would ever have spent what it would take to rent that on the open market.



This could also be the reason why we haven’t seen the HGVC bulk. Maybe HGVC has changed their strategy to align with the others 

To those who don’t know...
The trading game is always changing. We’ve seen deposit patterns change over the years with various systems. The thing to remember is that nothing is guaranteed when it comes to exchanging. The rules can change at any time.

Sometimes it’s best to grab the opportunity when you see it, especially when new resorts become available via the exchange companies. Here are some that became available for a brief time that I wish I changed my plans and took advantage of -  Disney Aulani, Disney Grand Californian Villas and Hyatt Ka’anapali.


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## ronandjoan (Apr 21, 2019)

Let me just add a note about the smaller exchange companies which no one seems to have mentioned much on this thread.  With the High Fees of II and RCI ( plus the annual membership fees) it doesn’t make sense to limit yourself just to those companies. They may have a larger inventory than the smaller companies but it is still sometimes difficult to get an exchange in a certain area you might want in RCI or II.  Also, On-Going Searches are not always correctly matched: I have found the exact week I wanted in the online inventory which means my search request was ignored somehow by the computer. 

      That has never happened with the following companies: Platinum Interchange and DAE.  PLUS, a most important element is you have a personal contact with these companies!          

      Platinum Interchange has been the one we use the most and we just spent two weeks at Laguna Beach with them (done it the last two years also) and have a summer week coming up on the Oregon Coast ( also three times there with PI in past years.) 

      Right now Peacock Suites in Anaheim is available for a mid-December week — granted not a holiday week,  but the Disney Christmas lights are up. These exchanges have been done with what you have been calling low value ( and older, that is “Legacy”) properties, but which we are careful to deposit at a high value time ( altho DAE and PI generally accept any time.)

      In addition, Platinum Interchange gives you a bonus week  and 90 days to use it at any of their inventory, thus, prorating your MF in half and using their low exchange rate of $129. 

    We landed a PI bonus week for a summer Wyndham Kona Hawaiian Resort week which I had already reserved with Wyn points, so I immediately cancelled the Wyn reservation and got those points back, saving then a value of $1200/week for a cost of $386/week).

    Our favorite Hawaii resort ... (actually our favorite exchange property done out of over 300 timeshares stays) is Sea Mountain on the BI, which we get every year from PI.  (If you don’t like being near the Black Sand Beach, they have a sister resort Sea Village, in town which we have also traded into with them.) Our favorite Mexico exchange is Los Tules in Puerto Vallarta ( 20 acres, 7 pools, oceanfront) again from PI.  DAE just called offering a Whiskey Jack early August week in BC ( from an on-going request.)  PI has also given us Worldmarks.  

      Yes, it is indeed a game. I even wrote an article in Timesharing Today m, titled “Winning the Timeshare Game.”  To win with the smaller companies, check out their websites for a while and find what inventory you like that they generally have inventory for that would  meet your interests and then call to request.  Yes, you can request before depositing but you’ll need to be ready to deposit if you get a match. For example , now  I have on-going requests for summers in WA, OR coast and North ID and then southern CA ( within one hour of Anaheim) for April-May. ( check my BLOG to see why those dates.) 

    I do not find many summer WA-OR coast weeks available in RCI. I already have the 2019 summer booked enough so my requests now are for 2020. 

      The larger exchange companies’ higher rates, impersonal VC’s , and the difficulty in exchanging have led us to successful vacationing with the smaller ones.  I only suggest you might check them out as other (occasional?) options.


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## rapmarks (Apr 21, 2019)

I gave DAE weeks, and had a hard time matching anything. And the exact week I requested showed up as sold months after my request.  One place I accepted was so bad, we drove home the next morning.  I stopped giving DAE weeks.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 21, 2019)

I loved trading with RCI before the age of TPU's. I thought it was so much fun! Sometimes I wish I still did, but then I come to my senses. LOL!


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## TravelTime (Apr 21, 2019)

I have gotten some high season exchanges worth more than what I used to exchange:
- 3 BR Four Seasons Costa Rica platinum week worth about $20,000+ per week (traded a gold 2 BR Four Seasons Aviara plus about an extra $1000 for the upcharge and trading fee)
- MKO 2 BR OV in Hawaii over Thanksgiving (traded for a low season 1 BR in Spain)
- high season winter (Feb 2020) 2 BR (3400 sf) Garza Blanca Residence Club in Puerto Vallarta (traded about $2100 in DVC points; this exchange is worth $5000-$7000 a week)

I have never gotten a bad trade and I have only done 4 trades in 2 years. I do not spend a lot of time on trading since I really do not like it and only do it for high value trades that are worth it. I have one studio deposit in II right now (since I split it and this is more convenient to me than renting it). I may be trading something in Elite Alliance to try it out next year.


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## Eric B (Apr 21, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> I have gotten some high season exchanges worth more than what I used to exchange:
> - 3 BR Four Seasons Costa Rica platinum week worth about $20,000+ per week (traded a gold 2 BR Four Seasons Aviara plus about an extra $1000 for the upcharge and trading fee)
> - MKO 2 BR OV in Hawaii over Thanksgiving (traded for a low season 1 BR in Spain)
> - high season winter (Feb 2020) 2 BR Garza Blanca Residence Club in Puerto Vallarta (traded about $2100 in DVC points and this exchange in high season is worth $5000-$7000 a week)
> ...



Let's be perfectly honest, though; you got the Four Seasons Costa Rica through the lottery with Four Seasons as an owner at Aviara rather than through an actual exchange system.  That's not the same as exchanging as everyone thinks of that.  And I'm not convinced the other exchanges you did were via RCI, II or one of the lower tier exchange systems; based on what you posted about Garza Blanca, you got that via DVC and The Registry Collection.  Frankly, I applaud your use of multiple exchange systems, including the higher end ones, but what everyone else has been posting about here is the run of the mill ones, so it's not really apples-to-apples as a comparison; I don't think anyone will ever get Four Seasons Costa Rica using a OGS in either RCI or II, so it's not something to aspire to in those systems.

In my opinion, you can get perfectly good and decent exchanges in RCI and II, very good ones using SFX/DAE/etc., if you are happy with what they have to offer, quite nice ones that cost a bit more using Third Home, Registry Collection or Elite Alliance if you have a TS or second home that is eligible to trade in those exchanges, and you can do very well in a number of other systems like the Four Seasons or other mini-systems that have internal exchange privileges.

What exchange system did you use for the MKO 2 BR OV and what low season 1 BR Spanish TS did you use for it, just out of curiosity?

Eric


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## TravelTime (Apr 21, 2019)

The title of this post is exchanging that seems too good to be true so I am glad you think my exchanges are too good to be true. The OP was also asking about how people get more value than their exchange is worth so I think my 3 examples are relevant to the OP’s questions.

FS is through the lottery, which is an internal exchange system but you need to be eligible and own at FS. Garza Blanca is through RCI as a DVC owner so this one is available to many Tuggers. And Hawaii is through II.

I got extremely lucky for FS. Many Tuggers have commented they have entered the lottery every year and have not gotten it. I entered once and got it. Beginner’s luck.

I did not post about all my other internal exchanges that I am very happy about through Westin SOs and Marriott DPs but those are like for like internal exchanges with no extra value gained. I thought FS was more relevant since it is “too good to be true” and worth a lot more than what I am paying in fees. It is more like an external exchange than an internal one given the circumstances.

P.S. I am sure some DVC members will think my GB exchange is a poor use of points and I should have sold the points and then rented using cash. Too much work for me. This also answers the OP’s question as to why there could be some great inventory available since I exchanged DVC points. Maybe someone will get lucky now and get to stay at a nicer resort than SSR.


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## Eric B (Apr 21, 2019)

Actually, the way you explained it in your other post on Garza Blanca, you got it through the RCI World Collection in DVC, which is actually The Registry Collection (points side).  It's a more limited availability than many would be able to get; Garza Blanca used to show up a lot on The Registry Collection (weeks side), but has not been showing up there much in the last few months.  My guess would be that the developer is transitioning to a different exchange system, but I haven't seen them showing up on Third Home, which is where a number of the other higher end Mexican ones are going.  It would be interesting to know where they are going to, though there are other TS in the area that I prefer.

I don't think the ones you got are too good to be true.  You've done quite well and have made some good choices in where you've invested in TS to trade with.  I would say, though, that there would be more value added for the community if we knew how you were able to get the exchanges you got.  I was happy to learn from @whitewater about the great exchanges he was able to make with his Pueblo Bonito Montecristo Estates ownership via Registry when he was giving that one away; I might actually wind up picking one of those up in a few years based on the knowledge I gained from that.  I've also been interested in what you've posted about things you've gotten with the FS Aviara and look forward to hearing how the Costa Rica one is; you had also mentioned that you get Elite Alliance through that ownership.  Still not really sure what you meant about trading a low season Spanish TS, though; is that the MVC one you list in your ownerships?


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## TravelTime (Apr 21, 2019)

Eric B said:


> Actually, the way you explained it in your other post on Garza Blanca, you got it through the RCI World Collection in DVC, which is actually The Registry Collection (points side).  It's a more limited availability than many would be able to get; Garza Blanca used to show up a lot on The Registry Collection (weeks side), but has not been showing up there much in the last few months.  My guess would be that the developer is transitioning to a different exchange system, but I haven't seen them showing up on Third Home, which is where a number of the other higher end Mexican ones are going.  It would be interesting to know where they are going to, though there are other TS in the area that I prefer.
> 
> I don't think the ones you got are too good to be true.  You've done quite well and have made some good choices in where you've invested in TS to trade with.  I would say, though, that there would be more value added for the community if we knew how you were able to get the exchanges you got.  I was happy to learn from @whitewater about the great exchanges he was able to make with his Pueblo Bonito Montecristo Estates ownership via Registry when he was giving that one away; I might actually wind up picking one of those up in a few years based on the knowledge I gained from that.  I've also been interested in what you've posted about things you've gotten with the FS Aviara and look forward to hearing how the Costa Rica one is; you had also mentioned that you get Elite Alliance through that ownership.  Still not really sure what you meant about trading a low season Spanish TS, though; is that the MVC one you list in your ownerships?



I thought I was clear in my posting but maybe not. It is hard to get all my thoughts out in the amount of detail that Tuggers like to hear. 

I put in an OGS about a year ago through RCI (not the Registry) as a DVC owner for ANY Garza Blanca. I may have specified 2BR+. The only reason I know it is World Collection/The Registry is because the confirmation says so. So basically it was a regular RCI OGS for a 2 BR Garza Blanca and they gave me one through the World Collection/Registry Collection for a residence unit. I did not request it that way. 

All DVC owners automatically get access to The Registry Collection. I actually do not like the properties on The Registry. There are too few and, with a few exceptions, most of them are not overly impressive. Garza Blanca is available through regular RCI and the residences are available through the Registry. My request was for either one.

Also, I got confirmed for high season 10 months in advance, which I thought was great since reading on TUG, people say it is hard to get good units at the high end properties in Mexico in high season.

I hope Garza Blanca is not moving to Third Home. I have access to Third Home through Marriott Vacation Club. I think Marriott only gives us access to last minute left overs, not the good stuff. Maybe Third Home is better if you go through someone other than Marriott Vacation Club. So far, I like the properties on Elite Alliance for the variety of managed resorts/clubs and destinations as well as Villas of Distinctions if you are looking for a full home (but VOD is super expensive in DP values).

However, I have not yet used Elite Alliance myself. I am waiting to make my deposit because they only allow you to have 2 years from the date of deposit, not from the reservation date of the deposit like II. So it is in my best interests to wait until as late this year as possible to make a deposit. Then I can use it into 2020 and 2021.

I own a 1 BR gold-holiday season at Marriott Marbella. I got one free week when I purchased it. I exchanged it for the 2 BR at Marriott Ko Olina and got an ocean view over Thanksgiving. It is worth less than half the MF of MKO. I actually own at MKO too.


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## ski_sierra (Apr 21, 2019)

dickgregory said:


> I agree it does take a lot of time tracking down these great trade opportunities.  It seems there are much better ways to "spend" this time, particularly in the golden years.  However, it's a real shot of adrenaline when a 3-bedroom can be confirmed at the Maui Ocean Club for a Marriott efficiency unit in Florida.  Perhaps our best trade ever.  This was inside of 60 days before check-in so no step up fees by Intervals.  Woohoo!



Exchanging seems to be addictive similar to video games, smart phones, email and news. We get sucked in and waste our time because it's "fun". I had read about this dopamine hit in one of the books on habits: how to build habit forming products. It is pretty evil stuff employed by facebook, gmail and many companies. 


_Another gambling concept that has made it to video games is that our brains actually respond more strongly to uncertain rewards than to certain ones. A certain reward of five gold at the end of a level is way less exciting to us than a random chance at getting anywhere from one to ten gold. _
From:
https://www.maketecheasier.com/why-games-are-designed-addictive/


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## VacationForever (Apr 21, 2019)

My best trades were using 2 weeks of 1BR to 2 weeks of 3BR at MKO Ocean view about 8 months out for March stay.  We were assigned to the 8th floor Ocean view.


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## TravelTime (Apr 22, 2019)

ski_sierra said:


> Exchanging seems to be addictive similar to video games, smart phones, email and news. We get sucked in and waste our time because it's "fun". I had read about this dopamine hit in one of the books on habits: how to build habit forming products. It is pretty evil stuff employed by facebook, gmail and many companies.
> 
> 
> _Another gambling concept that has made it to video games is that our brains actually respond more strongly to uncertain rewards than to certain ones. A certain reward of five gold at the end of a level is way less exciting to us than a random chance at getting anywhere from one to ten gold. _
> ...



I think you are right. I was very addicted for a while. I have taken a break and now I am re-evaluating if I really like timeshares vs just planning where I want to go, when I want to go, and paying the best price I can find. I am in Spain now, and I really prefer the 5 star hotels over marriott marbella which is 3.5 star at best and very very expensive for anything. A sangria is 15 euros which is $17 US. I was paying about 3 to 4 euros in Madrid and Seville at the tabernas. Not more than 13 euros at the truly 5 star hotels.


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## PrairieGirl (Apr 22, 2019)

ski_sierra said:


> It seems like the more successful approach to exchanging is go where the availability is rather than find availability for where you want to go. The sightings forum is a good way to keep up on what becomes available.



- BINGO! If you keep this attitude you will make many trades that you are happy with.

Also, keep in mind that if you have the flexibility to travel at the "last minute" there will OFTEN be Marriotts (and the like) that show up two weeks to one day before the check indate.


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## JudiZ (Apr 25, 2019)

I was considering the money issue - I do believe that RCI is a pricey trade but I get 30 TPUs from my deposit of a resort that costs $700 a year in m/f. If I get two weeks of trades and I spend $239 per week of trade and $100 a year for RCI, the cost per week becomes $639. If I get three weeks (and I have once or twice), the price becomes $522 per week. I might be missing something in the math, but I always feel if we don't use that week ourselves, we can parlay it into a couple of weeks. 

With my pending retirement in July and a husband whose "office" fits in a padded backpack, those "last minute" deals are calling my name already. After years of being an educator, there is great appeal to the very idea that I could take off in the middle of November or March! As long as there is wifi, the DH and I can go virtually anywhere. And living in the northeast, there is much within a two day driving distance.


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## ski_sierra (Apr 27, 2019)

JudiZ said:


> I was considering the money issue - I do believe that RCI is a pricey trade but I get 30 TPUs from my deposit of a resort that costs $700 a year in m/f. If I get two weeks of trades and I spend $239 per week of trade and $100 a year for RCI, the cost per week becomes $639. If I get three weeks (and I have once or twice), the price becomes $522 per week. I might be missing something in the math, but I always feel if we don't use that week ourselves, we can parlay it into a couple of weeks.
> 
> With my pending retirement in July and a husband whose "office" fits in a padded backpack, those "last minute" deals are calling my name already. After years of being an educator, there is great appeal to the very idea that I could take off in the middle of November or March! As long as there is wifi, the DH and I can go virtually anywhere. And living in the northeast, there is much within a two day driving distance.



3 weeks for $2000 seems like a great deal. I see that there are economies of scale here. Pretty expensive for the casual exchanger though who will exchange for maybe 1 week per year.


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## RunCat (May 21, 2019)

chapjim said:


> I'm trying to think of a game where no luck is involved.  Learning the rules and expending effort increase one's chances of winning but if that's all it took, it wouldn't be a game.


Only game that I know of that does not involve any luck is “Diplomacy”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game)


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## chapjim (May 21, 2019)

RunCat said:


> Only game that I know of that does not involve any luck is “Diplomacy”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game)



Add chess and checkers.  I didn't think hard enough (or, in the immortal words of Curly, "I'm tryin' ta think but nuttin' happens!").


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## silentg (May 31, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> How come nobody has mentioned the additional costs of exchanging? On top of your own resort's annual maintenance, don't forget to add the better part of $100 for membership to RCI or II (unless it's included. You're still paying it, it's just not broken out as a separate charge) then there's that ~$300 exchange fee.
> 
> So, in many (most) cases, exchanging where you own for somewhere else will cost close you $400 a week more than just staying where you own. And if you're fortunate enough to own enough points or exchange power for multiple exchanges, just double (or more) that number.
> 
> ...


It can be if you do TUG exchanges


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## rapmarks (Jun 1, 2019)

RunCat said:


> Only game that I know of that does not involve any luck is “Diplomacy”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game)


How about duplicate bridge, there is some luck, but everyone plays the same bridge hands.


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## ski_sierra (Jun 2, 2019)

I think you guys are taking the luck comment too far. I noticed @mdurette posts a lot of sightings and I'm sure he/she gets great exchanges. The definition of winning can be different to different people.


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## Panina (Jun 2, 2019)

ski_sierra said:


> I think you guys are taking the luck comment too far. I noticed @mdurette posts a lot of sightings and I'm sure he/she gets great exchanges. The definition of winning can be different to different people.


Luck is necessary for a few exchanges but planning by owning good traders, getting your deposits in early, putting your requests in early and checking online does better then luck.


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## ski_sierra (Jul 16, 2019)

I need to report back my first exchange success. I recently bought a 2 BR Marriott Grand Chateau, made reservation for studio and 1 BR for a 135 TDI week and deposited it ~11 months out. 

I just confirmed an exchange into St. Kitt's Beach Club in a 2 BR using the studio portion for Memorial day week 2020. It also happens to be a holiday week for my nephews in England. I know that's not high season for the Carribean islands but I don't plan on going to the Carribean in winter as winter is for skiing . Next year is the last year before my daughter starts school so I am taking advantage of the opportunity to go off season.

I also found a week at Marriott Frenchman's Cove using the studio portion of MGC, but I could not find award flights so we are going to St. Kitts instead. It looks like a nice quiet island for families.

You guys are awesome. I couldn't have done it without all the amazing advice and insight you offer on this board.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Jul 16, 2019)

Nice trades!  A Marriott Grande Chateau in Las Vegas is an excellent trader (as you have found out for yourself).




.


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## GeorgeJ. (Aug 2, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Exchanging allows for a form of arbitrage . When used well you have an opportunity to have the results
> you have noticed reading TUG threads .
> 
> A historic example was the South African resorts termed” tiger traders “ . For a period of time RCI gave higher TPU’s to these resorts AND the MF cost when paid in USD was quite low due to currency exchange rates .
> ...


There were other resorts that were available cheaply back in the 90's that out-traded the South African resorts. I bought my Southern California coastal trader for $2000 in 1999. Under the current system it can get 50 TPU for a July-August week deposited into RCI. The MF in under $500 a year. 
I have a lot of TPUs banked with RCI that I keep paying them to extend because I can't use them all (about 200 TPUs banked at the moment). Since I typically use under 40 TPUs a year if I do two RCI trades, my banked points keep building up...


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