# Very dissatisfied owner. How do I get rid of my weeks?



## Frisbeeace (Apr 18, 2014)

I bought 2 weeks at Sabal Palms back in 1993. As a foreign owner who can not occupy or travel with the whole family every year, trading for Marriott Rewards Points was my main or almost exclusive alternative. In fact, the local MVCI reps focused all their sales pitch on what we could do with MRP we owners could get. 

Years went by, and we still get the same 110,000 points which at moment allowed for a week at the nicest hotels in the world. After several devaluations and birth of new hotel categories, those same points barely pay for 2/3 nights at a nice hotel, meaning that the cost of each one is approximately $500 considering that we pay $1,400 in maintenance expenses and membership in the DC points system.

So, in 20 years, hotels have increased it cost in dollars and MRP but this does not apply to our appartments/weeks which we still trade (sell) to Marriott at the old rate (price). This is absolutely insane and a complete rip-off. By the way, I am surprised not knowing of angry mobs of Marriott owners complaining about this...

So, after enjoying the ever declining program for +10 years, now it became a headache and want to get rid of my weeks as fast as I can. Any ideas on how to? Thank you.

B


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## DeniseM (Apr 18, 2014)

Click here ->  *How can I give away my timeshare on TUG?*


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## brigechols (Apr 18, 2014)

You can give the weeks away to someone ready, willing, and able to take on the maintenance fees. This link contains information on how to do it.


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## BocaBoy (Apr 18, 2014)

Marriott may still be buying back Sabal Palms weeks.  After the introduction of DC they were quite aggressive in doing so.  I got a very good price from MVCI for one of my Sabal Palms weeks.  They really needed Sabal Palms weeks for the trust (and may still need more) because it is a sold out resort and there is no ROFR at Sabal Palms.  If they are buying back Sabal Palms weeks it will probably net you more money with less hassle than any other avenue of getting rid of it.  Call MVCI Resales to find out if they are interested at this time.


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## presley (Apr 18, 2014)

Marriott may buy them back or resell them for you.  Look for the thread titled "marriott is buying back timeshares."  It's a very long thread,but there will be a phone number for the Marriott buyback in there somewhere.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 18, 2014)

Frisbeeace said:


> I bought 2 weeks at Sabal Palms back in 1993. As a foreign owner who can not occupy or travel with the whole family every year, trading for Marriott Rewards Points was my main or almost exclusive alternative. In fact, the local MVCI reps focused all their sales pitch on what we could do with MRP we owners could get.
> 
> Years went by, and we still get the same 110,000 points which at moment allowed for a week at the nicest hotels in the world. After several devaluations and birth of new hotel categories, those same points barely pay for 2/3 nights at a nice hotel, meaning that the cost of each one is approximately $500 considering that we pay $1,400 in maintenance expenses and membership in the DC points system.
> 
> ...



And 20 years ago fuel was 1.29/Gal., a loaf of bread was .39 cents, and a flight to London from Miami was $500.

So, what exactly is your point?  Maybe your expectation was that Hotels rooms would still be rented for $59 dollars/night after 20 years? 

I don't see how its Marriott's issue that you purchased something in another country that you knowingly were unsure if you could use......

By all means, if you can't use it then rent it, sell, it, give it away, etc.  But I think its unfair to call it a rip-off.

Its understandable to be disappointed with your current situation.  You can place your units for sale on TUG, Redweek, ebay, etc.

FT


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## SueDonJ (Apr 18, 2014)

presley said:


> Marriott may buy them back or resell them for you.  Look for the thread titled "marriott is buying back timeshares."  It's a very long thread,but there will be a phone number for the Marriott buyback in there somewhere.



If I were selling, Marriott Resales Operations would be my first option.  There are no guarantees, of course, but at the moment for many Weeks the better offers are coming from that office as opposed to any external sites.

Link to TUG thread, Marriott is BUYING BACK TIMESHARES.

The cached link and phone number for Marriott Resales Operations is 866-682-4547.

Hmmmm.  There may be some tweaking going on with that website/link; it may or may not work for you.  Note it's not part of my-vacationclub.com; it's marriottvacationclub.com.  But that home page used to have a taskbar that included direct links to "Sell Weeks" and "Buy Weeks" pages; those links don't appear to exist any longer on the newest version of the linked page.  Just two days ago another TUGger told me she's unable to get to the "Sell Weeks" page from the link in the Points FAQ so I directed her to the site and told her to put "resales" in the Search box - that worked for me the other day to bring up both the "Buy" and "Sell" pages but now it doesn't return any hits.  Not sure what this all means but it won't be a surprise if it all disappears.

For now the direct link in the Points FAQ is still working for me (with a security warning) but just in case I've copied/pasted the "Sell Weeks" page info to a doc I'm saving as well as the thread linked above,  and will include it with the Weeks FAQ that's currently being worked on.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 18, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> And 20 years ago fuel was 1.29/Gal., a loaf of bread was .39 cents, and a flight to London from Miami was $500.
> 
> So, what exactly is your point?  Maybe your expectation was that Hotels rooms would still be rented for $59 dollars/night after 20 years?
> 
> ...



Oh, I don't know, that's one of the usual TUG complaints that makes some sense to me.  I understand why the Marriott Rewards Points allotments for Weeks don't increase (because the specific amounts are written into the governing documents) when the hotel categories/requirements change.  But despite understanding the reason why not, I also understand why many think that the constant devaluation of the timeshares' MRP exchange benefit is very disappointing.

What if the timeshare exchange values in II were subject to the same constant devaluations?  What if the 2BR Week timeshare you bought ten years ago got you from II back then a like-for-like 2BR Week, but now can only ever get you a studio for four days?  And next year might get you even less?  That's what we're lamenting here, the complete loss of any semblance of like-for-like value and continuing diminishing returns when exchanging the timeshares for MRP.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 18, 2014)

The thing is, the value you get for your MR points has no bearing on the amount of your MFs. The MFs go no where except to the HOA for resort operations and maintenance.

I can however understand the gripe. Marriott takes your week gives you points and turns around and rents your week out for cash. Over time that amount of cash has continued to increase while the number of points they give you does not. They really should have written in to the governing documentation to allow for increases based on some type of index. Unfortunately they didn't so that leaves us with a system that continues to lose value over time.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 18, 2014)

Yea,  seems like we discuss the whole MR devaluation process every year like clockwork when any program changes are to be announced.  That just happened about a month ago.

It was recently discussed on this thread: http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207843

The OP seemed to indicate they purchased solely for the MR exchange option.

We all know that usage option is of little benefit anymore.

FT


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## dioxide45 (Apr 18, 2014)

There are very few Marriott weeks that have to be given away for free to unload them. I agree with others to call Marriott and ask for a buyback offer. Marriott's active buyback of weeks is one reason that we are seeing fewer of these weeks popup on EBay.


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## BocaBoy (Apr 19, 2014)

SueDonJ said:


> I understand why the Marriott Rewards Points allotments for Weeks don't increase (because *the specific amounts are written into the governing documents*) when the hotel categories/requirements change.  But despite understanding the reason why not, I also understand why many think that the constant devaluation of the timeshares' MRP exchange benefit is very disappointing.



They actually are not in the governing documents.  They are in a separate Rules & Regulations document you get when you buy the timeshare, and that document specifically says that the MR amounts are not guaranteed and can be eliminated or changed at any time in MORI's discretion.  The documents allow changes in the amounts without amending any governing documents, but I am not aware of any case where the amount of MR points given for an exchange has been increased.


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## BocaBoy (Apr 19, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> The OP seemed to indicate they purchased solely for the MR exchange option.
> 
> We all know that usage option is of little benefit anymore.
> 
> FT


Yes, a lot of very savvy people purchased Sabal Palms in the early days solely for the MR exchange benefit.  We did so in 1987 and it was one of the best financial decisions we ever made.  I have commented frequently on what 110,000 points would get you in those days (when the annual maintenance fee was only something like $325), but suffice it to say in this thread that it was a lot more than you get today for a 360,000 point travel package.  The benefits were still spectacular in 1993 when the OP purchased, so I can personally understand OP's frustration and  sense of betrayal very well.


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## BocaBoy (Apr 19, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> And 20 years ago fuel was 1.29/Gal., a loaf of bread was .39 cents, and a flight to London from Miami was $500.
> 
> So, what exactly is your point?  Maybe your expectation was that Hotels rooms would still be rented for $59 dollars/night after 20 years?
> 
> ...



If I were the OP I would feel insulted by this response.  It is condescending and completely misses the OP's point.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 19, 2014)

BocaBoy said:


> They actually are not in the governing documents.  They are in a separate Rules & Regulations document you get when you buy the timeshare, and that document specifically says that the MR amounts are not guaranteed and can be eliminated or changed at any time in MORI's discretion.  The documents allow changes in the amounts without amending any governing documents, but I am not aware of any case where the amount of MR points given for an exchange has been increased.



I do recall some people bought at properties when they allowed for EOY conversion to MR points. The sales team then moved to offering conversion every year. They allowed those that bought previously to change to every year for an additional fee, a couple thousand dollars I believe. Legends Edge is one such resort. Sales were slow so they upped the ante and moved from an EOY to EY MR point conversion.

This also brings to light the real reason for the option. It was a pure selling tool used by the sales team to entice buyers.


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## mav (Apr 19, 2014)

BocaBoy said:


> If I were the OP I would feel insulted by this response.  It is condescending and completely misses the OP's point.



  I agree wholeheartedly.


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## puckmanfl (Apr 19, 2014)

good morning all...

Please remember that the sales pitch was

#1  This is your vacation 401K, protecting you from the value losing inflation...the ownership is still the same, 1 week in season at your unit, but a value of it is decreasing as MRP's have declining value and will get worse!!!

#2  my favorite, tomorrows vacations at today's prices...

I can understand the OP's lament.  I agree with Sue...IF II said sorry, you can only trade your units for 6 days somewhere... we would not be blowing it off with  "sorry.... gallon of gas was $1.38 in  1993...

I am working on consuming my remaining 1,000,000 MRP's  before the value goes down to zero...!!!

The fixed MRP/ week thingwas a pre thought out scam and kind of a MVCD rip off...


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 19, 2014)

BocaBoy said:


> If I were the OP I would feel insulted by this response.  It is condescending and completely misses the OP's point.



Good, I meant it to be inflammatory.  The feeling is mutual and you seemed to miss the part about Marriott being a rip-off and angry mobs of Marriott owners.

I suppose you also want the value of your 20 year old car to be worth what was paid when new or that 27-foot open fisherman to be sold for the same cost after 8 years of use.

This is the traditional mistake made by many Timeshare purchasers, they think somehow it is a financial investment of some sorts since they are spending cash for it.

Maybe I should treat my kids education the same way some think of timeshares.  After 20 years, I should tell my kids that the $200K I invested in their Ivy League schooling was a rip-off because they aren't making anywhere near that in their careers. NOT!

The bottom line is that Marriott has not ripped anyone off.  Everyone still gets the same number of MR points that was originally offered.  Yes, that benefit is not what it used to be.  We all know that.

If your unhappy with your purchase then sell it, give it away, or rent it and move on with life.

FT


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## MOXJO7282 (Apr 19, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Good, I meant it to be inflammatory.  The feeling is mutual and you seemed to miss the part about Marriott being a rip-off and angry mobs of Marriott owners.
> 
> I suppose you also want the value of your 20 year old car to be worth what was paid when new or that 27-foot open fisherman to be sold for the same cost after 8 years of use.
> 
> ...


Why couldn't Marriott give some increase in points to retain some of the MR point value? They could've increased it by 10-15% over time and still maintain solid profit margin in my opinion but instead they are like most corporation who are greedy and need to max out their profits and since they probably have an endless supply of new customers who make up for the losing the devaluing will continue until the whole system will fail. 

Its easy to say if you don't like it drop it but that is not fair to all those that have spent a ton of money on Marriott TSs. Corps don't care about fair they just care about profits.

Now you'll argue they're doing for their stockholders and that may be true but my point is it still catering to the "rich" stockholders and not the everyday man and woman. My belief is if everyone wasn't so greedy the rich could still be rich but not filthy rich and the average guy would be much better off.  

This is exactly why the middle class is shrinking IMHO, Corp greed.


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## vacationtime1 (Apr 19, 2014)

MOXJO7282 said:


> Why couldn't Marriott give some increase in points to retain some of the MR point value? They could've increased it by 10-15% over time and still maintain solid profit margin in my opinion but instead they are like most corporation who are greedy and need to max out their profits and since they probably have an endless supply of new customers who make up for the losing the devaluing will continue until the whole system will fail.
> 
> Its easy to say if you don't like it drop it but that is not fair to all those that have spent a ton of money on Marriott TSs. *Corps don't care about fair they just care about profits.*
> 
> ...



Corporations are supposed to maximize profits; that's why people buy shares in them.  But that's not the point.

Marriott presumably made a profit on point conversions 20-25 years ago when the conversion rate was set.  It still (and it should still) make a profit on point conversions today.  But at current conversion rates, owners are disincentivized to convert weeks into points.  If the conversion rate were increased (in proportion to increases in MF's??), the number of owners converting weeks into points would increase.  We Tuggers aren't the only ones capable of doing this math.

Perhaps Marriott's strategy is to screw over a small number of owners rather than earning a smaller unit profit on a larger volume.  But it seems to me that overall profit on this piece of its business would increase if Marriott could increase volume.  JMHO


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## answeeney (Apr 19, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> I suppose you also want the value of your 20 year old car to be worth what was paid when new or that 27-foot open fisherman to be sold for the same cost after 8 years of use.
> FT


This is a very poor analogy. I don't see why a stay in a Marriott property should be expected to depreciate in value (the value of a timeshare ownership might but that is besides the point). A stay now in an MVC resort certainly costs more than it would have 8 or 20 years ago and has probably kept pace with non resort hotel costs. Why then should anyone consider it reasonable that a week in a resort that could be exchanged for a week in a hotel in the past should now only pull a couple of nights?

I know the argument that you buy a week in a particular place and everything else is a bonus so just suck it up. But bear in mind that the ability to exchange your week for something else is an integral part of the timeshare pitch so methodical devaluation of the exchange power of a timeshare week can, in my view, quite legitimately be called a rip off, particularly by someone who bought into the system early before the cynicism of Marriott's approach became so evident.


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## windje2000 (Apr 19, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> And 20 years ago fuel was 1.29/Gal., a loaf of bread was .39 cents, and a flight to London from Miami was $500.
> 
> So, what exactly is your point?  Maybe your expectation was that Hotels rooms would still be rented for $59 dollars/night after 20 years?
> 
> ...



I think the point is  . . the occupancy 

that OP is trading for MRP . . .  

has a market rental value . . . 

that has increased over the years with inflation.


OP's expectation was that the occupancy he would obtain via that exchange scheme would have a value (in either constant or current dollars  . . . but don't mix them) equivalent to what he was giving up.


Clear?


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## BocaBoy (Apr 19, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> *Good, I meant it to be inflammatory.  The feeling is mutual*........If your unhappy with your purchase then sell it, give it away, or rent it and move on with life.
> 
> FT



My, how juvenile.  Again you miss the point being made.


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## SpikeMauler (Apr 19, 2014)

answeeney said:


> A stay now in an MVC resort certainly costs more than it would have 8 or 20 years ago and has probably kept pace with non resort hotel costs. Why then should anyone consider it reasonable that a week in a resort that could be exchanged for a week in a hotel in the past should now only pull a couple of nights?



I agree. Nothing unreasonable about the op's observation


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## bogey21 (Apr 19, 2014)

Frisbeeace said:


> By the way, I am surprised not knowing of angry mobs of Marriott owners complaining about this....



Don't get me wrong.  I like the quality of Marriott Resorts.  But the constant modifications to their programs (Rental, Resale, MRP, etc.) to the detriment of Owners similar to what you describe in your post are what caused me to sell my 4 Marriott Weeks years ago.

George


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## BocaBoy (Apr 19, 2014)

windje2000 said:


> I think the point is  . . the occupancy
> 
> that OP is trading for MRP . . .
> 
> ...



Exactly.  That is the OP's point and the one FT is refusing to acknowledge in an intentionally inflammatory way.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 19, 2014)

answeeney said:


> This is a very poor analogy. I don't see why a stay in a Marriott property should be expected to depreciate in value (the value of a timeshare ownership might but that is besides the point). A stay now in an MVC resort certainly costs more than it would have 8 or 20 years ago and has probably kept pace with non resort hotel costs. Why then should anyone consider it reasonable that a week in a resort that could be exchanged for a week in a hotel in the past should now only pull a couple of nights?
> 
> I know the argument that you buy a week in a particular place and everything else is a bonus so just suck it up. But bear in mind that the ability to exchange your week for something else is an integral part of the timeshare pitch so methodical devaluation of the exchange power of a timeshare week can, in my view, quite legitimately be called a rip off, particularly by someone who bought into the system early before the cynicism of Marriott's approach became so evident.



I think its a great analogy because our timeshares value is tied to its usage.  I love the Tug mantra of "Buy where you want to go".

After years of using my car, I have received my value.  At end of life or my usage, I just sell it, give it away to charity, or pay to get rid of it.  

Same thing with a timeshare, at end of life or my usage, I just sell it, give it away to charity, or pay to get rid of it. 

Timeshares are not assets or financial instruments.  They are pre-paid vacations nothing more.  If you want to treat your pre-paid vacations with MVCI as a financial investment then look no further than e-bay from time to time to re-acquaint yourself with its current financial value.

We bought weeks years ago and we still have them same as the first day of purchase.  We traded for MR points once in 1999 and that was fine for us.  Used those 125K MR points for a week in a hotel elsewhere.

We don't use MR point conversions anymore because of the devaluation, but that's OK with us since we purchased to use not to trade.

MR Points is only one usage option so it really only affects a smaller percentage of the owners whose choose this option.  Now with the Destination Club there is even more usage options available to owners making the MR conversion that more meaningless.

FT


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## LisaRex (Apr 19, 2014)

We're not talking the price of commodities, which Marriott has no control over.  We're talking about two currencies, hotel points and timeshare points, that are controlled by the same entity, Marriott. The only reason that they are out of balance is because they allowed them to get out of balance. Adjusting the conversion rate between these two currencies to make them better align with the week for week exchange that TS owners were sold on, would be as easy as flipping a switch. They choose not to. 

To the best of my knowledge, none of the hotel-branded TS companies, including Marriott, have adjusted their TS:hotel conversion rates to preserve the ~week for week parity the once existed between the two systems. I'm honestly mystified as to why, because over the years it's turned a win/win into a win/lose.  And that's a shame for everyone, IMO, because it ultimately means less fluidity between the two entities. As a leisure traveler, I enjoy both hotel rooms and timeshares, and if anything wish that there was more TS availability.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 19, 2014)

I think the issue here is that the OP bought for the wrong reasons. While trading your week for MR points was a HUGE selling point, it never really worked well in practice if all you were doing was converting it to a hotel certificate. Sure the value was better, but even when you could get 7 nights out of converting your week to points, you were still giving up a 2BR unit in many cases for a week in a small hotel room. All while paying a developer premium price to do so. This is why there was always the big argument back and forth about the real value of developer purchases.

One should never have bought in to the program to soley trade their week for MR points every year. Though some people do that or at least every other year and are still successful at getting value from it by using the travel packages.

The same issue exists with people buying trust points today. Their conversion is what 32 MR points per DC point. That isn't indexed in any way. So years from now when MFs on trust points reach $0.55pp, the same ratio of 32 to 1 will exist.


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## BocaBoy (Apr 19, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> I think the issue here is that the OP bought for the wrong reasons. While trading your week for MR points was a HUGE selling point, it never really worked well in practice if all you were doing was converting it to a hotel certificate. Sure the value was better, but *even when you could get 7 nights out of converting your week to points, you were still giving up a 2BR unit in many cases for a week in a small hotel room.* All while paying a developer premium price to do so. This is why there was always the big argument back and forth about the real value of developer purchases.
> 
> One should never have bought in to the program to soley trade their week for MR points every year. Though some people do that or at least every other year and are still successful at getting value from it by using the travel packages.
> 
> The same issue exists with people buying trust points today. Their conversion is what 32 MR points per DC point. That isn't indexed in any way. So years from now when MFs on trust points reach $0.55pp, the same ratio of 32 to 1 will exist.



From an historical perspective I have to disagree again.  Very few TUGGERs bought in the late 1980's or early 1990's and seem to find it difficult to believe the value of an MR exchange back then.  You were not limited to the 7 night hotel certificate, which was only a part of the exchange value.  When we bought Sabal Palms in 1987, our 110,000 points could literally be exchanged for 8 nights in any Marriott hotel worldwide, PLUS 2 coach tickets anywhere in the world on one of several airlines, PLUS a free week of a full-size Hertz car.  A few years later they added a 3-4 night cruise certificate to the package, ALL FOR THOSE 110,000 points, although the cruise addition only lasted a year or so.  Then in the  mid-1990's the devaluations began (slowly at first) in what you could get for those 110,000 points.  Not only did the hotels start costing more points but features of the program were reduced or eliminated (e.g., the rental car).  A major plus was when they started giving airline miles instead of coach tickets because that allowed you to use the miles toward business or first class tickets, but most changes were adverse.

No one is saying that Marriott has an obligation to increase the number of MR points offered for a timeshare exchange, but it is easy to understand why some of the early owners at a resort like Sabal Palms feel betrayed.


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## BocaBoy (Apr 19, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> The same issue exists with people buying trust points today. Their conversion is what 32 MR points per DC point. That isn't indexed in any way. So years from now when MFs on trust points reach $0.55pp, the same ratio of 32 to 1 will exist.



True, but this is not such a big issue with today's purchasers.  Today the value of the MR exchange is not very attractive so it is not therefore not much of an inducement to buy.  Much different than it was for buyers 15 and more years ago, and especially for those who have owned for 20-25 years or more.

When we bought in 1987, Marriott was explicitly bringing integrity to a sleazy timeshare industry and they emphasized how the buyers would always be able to trust Marriott.  And for years we could.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 19, 2014)

BocaBoy said:


> Not really.  The issue with MR points is not the increasing maintenance fees.  It is that the usage value of a MR point has been reduced so much.  With DC, no matter how high the maintenance fee goes, one can still presumably still use his or her points to reserve the same thing as  they can today.  That is the factor that is causing all the consternation.



I was comparing apples to apples, it seems you think I was comparing apples to oranges. I was speaking directly to the conversion of DC points to Marriott Reward points. Not the relation of MFs to DC points. The ratio of converting a DC point to Marriott Reward points is set right now with no presumed increase. Just like the way weeks were setup for conversion to Marriott Reward points.


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## BocaBoy (Apr 19, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> I was comparing apples to apples, it seems you think I was comparing apples to oranges. I was speaking directly to the conversion of DC points to Marriott Reward points. Not the relation of MFs to DC points. The ratio of converting a DC point to Marriott Reward points is set right now with no presumed increase. Just like the way weeks were setup for conversion to Marriott Reward points.



Yes, I re-read your earlier post and revised mine.  I guess you were responding before you saw my revised post.  Sorry.


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## answeeney (Apr 19, 2014)

BocaBoy said:


> True, but this is not such a big issue with today's purchasers.  Today the value of the MR exchange is not very attractive so it is not therefore not much of an inducement to buy.  Much different than it was for buyers 15 and more years ago, and especially for those who have owned for 20-25 years or more.
> 
> When we bought in 1987, Marriott was explicitly bringing integrity to a sleazy timeshare industry and they emphasized how the buyers would always be able to trust Marriott.  And for years we could.



This is the key point for me. When I bought into Marriott the exchange for MRP was already poor value but, as a last resort, I thought I was at least storing some value. However, the manipulation of the system by Marriott to their advantage and my detriment soon taught me otherwise. I can only imagine how much more it grates for people who were told at the point of purchase that their luxury accommodation could always be swapped for a week in a hotel with extras only to be lectured now that they are fools for thinking they were getting anything more than their home week usage.


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## bogey21 (Apr 19, 2014)

bogey21 said:


> Don't get me wrong.  I like the quality of Marriott Resorts.  But the constant modifications to their programs (Rental, Resale, MRP, etc.) to the detriment of Owners similar to what you describe in your post are what caused me to sell my 4 Marriott Weeks years ago.



In light of posts subsequent to when I posted the above I would point out that my first Marriott was also Sabal Palms pre-construction.  Rental and Resale commissions have doubled since I bought and the value of MRP has been cut in half.  And what were used to entice us to buy our Sabal Palms Weeks?  Of course it was the Rental Program, the Resale Program and the conversion of our Weeks into MRP.

George


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## Fayeoctober (Apr 19, 2014)

I believe Marriott has separated the timeshare part of its operations from its hotels.  I too am not happy with trading my week in for points - I think it is 110 or 120K for the Manor Club - when these points are worth less and less.  I have talked to varous personnel in the Rewards Program about this particularly since they continue to upgrade the tier level of just about all the hotels in which I am interested.  In New York for instance a lot of hotels are now category 9.  So basically if I trade a week in for points (and I haven't done that recently) I might be able to get 3 nights in New York for the week I have traded in.  Not much incentive there.

When I purchased at the Manor Club almost 20 years ago, the idea of being able to trade in the week for points was a nice incentive.  We bought because we really liked Williamsburg but again the points were a nice option.  At this point, with the points being so devalued I have done better the two times in the past 5 years that I have banked my week with Interval.  With a request first we were able to get the Hyatt Carmel Highlands Inn (something I never expected to do) and this year the Maui Ocean Club.  Pretty good trades so I certainly didn't need to join the Destination Club or whatever it is called.

I think Marriott is going to continue to lose some loyality among its customers by devaluing points in this fashion and I think some of the responses in this thread were harsh.


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## SCSTWG (Apr 19, 2014)

I am not a big fan of analogies because they are never fair comparisons, largely irrelevant and ultimately wind up with people discussing the analogy instead of the issue.  The main thing that catches my attention is that 23 years is plenty of time to see a trend of MRP devaluation.  I think the OP could have stepped away long ago and minimized his losses.  

In his defense, I do agree that one of the big selling points is "tomorrow's vacation at today's prices".  While he might have felt there was some value when he purchased in 1993, you will be hard pressed to find many people who have purchased from the developer who after a significant period of time, made out extremely well.  The ones that do make out fairly well, really invest time and effort in working the system to their benefit and changing their approach over time as conditions change.  IMO, OP's situation made it difficult to justify a purchase as he basically broke all the cardinal rules.....buy where you want to go every year, buy where you can drive to, buy resale, etc.

In his defense, In 1993 the information was not as readily available as the Internet was in its infancy.


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## Frisbeeace (Apr 19, 2014)

Thank you all for your valuable comments and overwhelming support to my position except for FT whose fragile analogies have been already discussed in length by other posters. Please spare me for my English as it is not my native language so my statements might not result as precise or self descriptive as they would in Spanish.

Anyway, my point remains that I own nights which I sell to Marriott for a currency called MRPs and they, in turn, sell them for cash. My home resort is in top shape thanks to our maintenance fees so there is no end-of-life usage. Their market value has increased significantly in 20 years, but Marriott pays me the same amount of MRPs. They still pay me the same 110,000 MRPs for my week which they sell now at 210,000 MRPs with a 91% profit which will keep going up as devaluation progresses. In terms of money, "my nights" started selling at $100 and now are being sold at $300, but why am I getting paid the same?

BocaBoy made it very clear how much we used to get years ago (let me add that you could tell Marriott that you wanted to fly to China with those 2 coach tickets and they banked you a load of points which were more than enough for more tickets elsewhere). The fact that devaluation progresses and that at some point down the road our 110,000 points may be enough for, let say, one night at a category 15 hotel, makes it clear that the trade for MRPs will die at some point.

The argument that trading for MRPs should not have been ever considered as the main usage option is a falacy. It should be kept working as well as others. Foreign owners in remote locations were enticed to buy weeks almost exclusively for this purpose. That was the strongest selling point for the Marriott reps outside the US. Think of a family having to pay today $1,800 a ticket per person to spend a week at a MVCI in the US. Most can't do that and rely on the trade to MRP to save for future vacations. That's our currency and it is being arbitrary licuated by Marriott.

The new Destinations Program is a joke for owners of weeks in Orlando, so it is not an alternative for the MRPs. I could trade 1:1 to any resort in the past through II which is now dry of desirable weeks and I need 3:1 in this new fancy program that Marriott gifted us with.

It is time to leave Marriott and sell or give away my weeks. Thank you for all your suggestions to do so.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 19, 2014)

Frisbeeace said:


> Thank you all for your valuable comments and overwhelming support to my position except for FT whose fragile analogies have been already discussed in length by other posters. Please spare me for my English as it is not my native language so my statements might not result as precise or self descriptive as they would in Spanish.
> 
> Anyway, my point remains that I own nights which I sell to Marriott for a currency called MRPs and they, in turn, sell them for cash. My home resort is in top shape thanks to our maintenance fees so there is no end-of-life usage. Their market value has increased significantly in 20 years, but Marriott pays me the same amount of MRPs. They still pay me the same 110,000 MRPs for my week which they sell now at 210,000 MRPs with a 91% profit which will keep going up as devaluation progresses. In terms of money, "my nights" started selling at $100 and now are being sold at $300, but why am I getting paid the same?
> 
> ...



Vendiendo tus puntos por effectivo es contra la ley.  No entiendo si estas tan fustrado con el programa tantos anos por que siges pagando por puntos que hoy no valen nada.

Mejor vender lo mas pronto possible.

FT

[English translation, best as I could get combining the results from several online translators (nobody could translate "siges"):

Selling your points for cash is against the law. I do not understand if you're so frustrated with the program for so many years that _siges_ paying for points that are worthless today. 

Better sell it as soon as possible.​
This is an English language forum.  If you wish to respond in a poster's native language that's fine, but please post in English also so it is readable by the majority of our users.  -- mg]


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## taffy19 (Apr 20, 2014)

Frisbeeace said:


> Thank you all for your valuable comments and overwhelming support to my position except for FT whose fragile analogies have been already discussed in length by other posters. Please spare me for my English as it is not my native language so my statements might not result as precise or self descriptive as they would in Spanish.
> 
> Anyway, my point remains that I own nights which I sell to Marriott for a currency called MRPs and they, in turn, sell them for cash. My home resort is in top shape thanks to our maintenance fees so there is no end-of-life usage. Their market value has increased significantly in 20 years, but Marriott pays me the same amount of MRPs. They still pay me the same 110,000 MRPs for my week which they sell now at 210,000 MRPs with a 91% profit which will keep going up as devaluation progresses. In terms of money, "my nights" started selling at $100 and now are being sold at $300, but why am I getting paid the same?
> 
> ...





BocaBoy said:


> Marriott may still be buying back Sabal Palms weeks. After the introduction of DC they were quite aggressive in doing so. I got a very good price from MVCI for one of my Sabal Palms weeks. They really needed Sabal Palms weeks for the trust (and may still need more) because it is a sold out resort and there is no ROFR at Sabal Palms. If they are buying back Sabal Palms weeks it will probably net you more money with less hassle than any other avenue of getting rid of it. Call MVCI Resales to find out if they are interested at this time.


I would follow BocaBoy's advice rather than give your timeshare away.

Another avenue is the service that RedWeek is offering now that I found out about the other day. 

There are also a few re-sale brokers who are reputable and specialize in Marriott resorts as well as others. Their names have been mentioned on TUG several times but I can't find them so quickly. I would ask the forum and someone will mention them to you or send you a private message.

You can list your own timeshare for sale on Redweek too or some of the other websites just like it. My Resort Network has been mentioned time and time again and there are more.

You can always give it away later if you get tired of trying and there is an option of doing a private exchange with someone who would like to visit your Sabal Palms since it is so close to Disneyworld and has been done over nicely that I saw recently commented on in TUg.

Marriott was selling the dream that it was easy to go anywhere in the world with exchanges in II but the weeks are far less than what was available before. They are selling the dream again to travel with points and the flexibility of the new system but the cost of points keeps going up. They were increased a few pennies when we were on Maui recently as a guest told me that they better buy that day or the price was no longer good the followring day. It was true because I verified it and she told me that Marriott would increade Trust Point prices four times per year!

Many people have been sold a system to use a certain way (like II was in the past) but then Marriott changes the program midstream or devalues what people originally bought (MRPs) while Marriott used this approach of selling the dream to them. It is very frustrating to deal with these changes and never in our favor either. 

I know the feeling with week #13 all too well and have griped about it plus it is hard to accept a big loss if you finally decide to sell. I can relate with this person and I hope that the OP will try the other alternatives first rather than giving it away. That's what I would do in his place.


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## Beefnot (Apr 20, 2014)

Deleted......


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## Frisbeeace (Apr 20, 2014)

A last note. When the Destinations Program was launched, people were outraged because of what they called "skimming", meaning that the number of points you get for your week is less than the average required to trade into your resort in the season you bought. That gap was (is?) approximately 10%. Well, as said in my previous post, the "skimming" with MRPs is 91%, a rip-off in my opinion.

Marriott is well aware of that so they designed the new program with a rule in the governing documents which "appear to allow Marriott to reallocate the Points Chart such that an increase in a resort chart must be offset by a decrease in the same chart (such that the total for a calendar year cannot be changed.)". So, they are acknowledging that it would be unfair to devalue your Destination Points by increasing the amount of them required to book any stay in the future. Why don't they follow the same criteria and ethics with MRPs granting that our weeks will revalue every year accordingly to how many MRPs or dollars they require to sell them to their customers.

Again, trading for MRPs is a valid choice for weeks owners and it should kept alive, valid and fair to honor their promises made years back when we bought in good faith.


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## siesta (Apr 20, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> I think its a great analogy because our timeshares value is tied to its usage.  I love the Tug mantra of "Buy where you want to go".
> 
> After years of using my car, I have received my value.  At end of life or my usage, I just sell it, give it away to charity, or pay to get rid of it.
> 
> ...


You sir, are no logician.



Frisbeeace said:


> Why don't they follow the same criteria and ethics with MRPs granting that our weeks will revalue every year accordingly to how many MRPs or dollars they require to sell them to their customers.


 I would surmise: Greed


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## taffy19 (Apr 20, 2014)

Beefnot said:


> You need to re-read OP's first post in this thread.


It is about Sabal Palms so I made the correction.  Thanks.


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## FlyerBobcat (Apr 20, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Vendiendo tus puntos por effectivo es contra la ley.  No entiendo si estas tan fustrado con el programa tantos anos por que siges pagando por puntos que hoy no valen nada.
> 
> Mejor vender lo mas pronto possible.
> 
> FT



google translate:



> Selling your points through effective it is against the law. I do not understand if you're so fustrado with the program for so many years that siges paying for points that are worthless today.
> 
> Best sell as soon as possible.



freetranslation.com



> Selling your points for eventual is against the law. If you do not understand these so fustrado with the program for so many years that Siges paying for points that today are worthless.
> 
> Better to sell as soon as possible.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 20, 2014)

Tom,

That is hilarious!  I guess Google has a lot of work to do in the translation business.:hysterical:

FT


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## Frisbeeace (Apr 20, 2014)

Another miss from FT. Nobody is selling points for cash here.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 20, 2014)

Frisbeeace said:


> Another miss from FT. Nobody is selling points for cash here.



The miss is from timeshare owners who never expected MR to be devalued over time.  That is a tiny percentage of the total population of MR account holders.  Most of these folks are not timeshare owners.

Those of us who were MR account holders prior to being timeshare owners were accustomed to devaluations in MR points since we experienced this over time from the MR program's inception.  So no real surprise there.

Marriott sure sells the points for cash and so do many folks on the street who are disgruntled by the MVCI program and look to take advantage of poor decisions through other illegitimate business practices.

The black market for MR points and account numbers is alive and well you just have to look beyond the window dressing to see what is happening on the street.

FT


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 20, 2014)

Frisbeeace,

There are many Argentinian, Brazilian, and Venezuelan folks that may be interested in purchasing your Sable Palms weeks.

I have met many at Villas at Doral, Beach Place, and Crystal Shores as owners or guests.

Many visitors from Latin America continue to be interested in purchasing timeshares in Florida.

I would highly recommend contacting Mr. Raul Pino GM at Villas at Doral.  He is very well connected in the community and the visitors/convention business here in South Florida.

He may be able to help you sell your units.  Send me a PM and I would be happy to give you his contact info.

FT


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## taffy19 (Apr 20, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Frisbeeace,
> 
> There are many Argentinian, Brazilian, and Venezuelan folks that may be interested in purchasing your Sable Palms weeks.
> 
> ...


Windje2000 explained it very well in a few words in post #22 as well as Puckmanfl in post #17 and certainly BocaBoy where he explained how it was in the very beginning when he bought (#12 and 13). Can't you get that, FT?

You finally gave the OP some better advice rather than giving the weeks away as you did first.

Marriott shouldn't have used these sales tactics unless they made them aware of this fact and also that this program could be terminated without any notice.

I doubt if they did that in places far away so the Marriott Rewards Program was their main selling point to sign the purchase contract as no resorts were close to where they live.  How many of them would have bought if this was hanging over their head?

I really wonder how many disappointed members we will get who bought at our resort in Maui? Isn't the sales pitch the same everywhere that you can go anywhere anytime but do they tell you that it may take three years to save up the points, if you buy the minimum package in Maui? Are they going to be happy if they have spent three years of maintenance fees already before even going on their first vacation? I doubt it very much.


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## taffy19 (Apr 20, 2014)

Beefnot said:


> You need to re-read OP's first post in this thread.


I noticed now that strike-out text doesn't work when I read it on my iPhone and may not be visible on other smart phones either so I will delete the mistake in post #40 that you brought to my attention. I hope that it makes better sense now what I was trying to say.

If what FT wrote in his last post is true then Marriott may offer him money that is attractive to him since he bought it so long ago or list it with the re-sale department.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 20, 2014)

iconnections said:


> Windje2000 explained it very well in a few words in post #22 as well as Puckmanfl in post #17 and certainly BocaBoy where he explained how it was in the very beginning when he bought (#12 and 13). Can't you get that, FT?
> 
> You finally gave the OP some better advice rather than giving the weeks away as you did first.
> 
> ...



First, I will never get it since its my belief that MVCI did nothing wrong when they sold me my weeks.  I was already a PLT member in MR way before I purchased any timeshare units.  Additionally, my governing documents which I read prior to purchase said that the MR program was an affiliate program offered to owners but could be cancelled at any time. So I didn't hang my purchase decision on a benefit that can be cancelled at anytime.

The OP's position is understandable as many timeshare purchasers don't comprehend what they are buying nor do they read the purchase documents or ask questions.  Their lack of understanding is no excuse for calling the establishment a rip-off.

Giving the weeks away is always a viable option which many owners end up seeking out just because they no longer have use for their units and don't care to continue paying MF.  That sounds like a reasonable approach to me.  Just look online for how many are offered for free or at $1.

Renting, selling, or passing to family are also alternatives as well.

Its also understandable that those who see their timeshare purchases as financial investments and not pre-paid vacations as the ones most resentful for program changes. 

Way I see it, you can continue to be resentful to the establishment for sales tactics, lies, and fine print or you can focus on getting the best out of your vacation.

Better to get out and minimize your losses than continuing to be upset at history.

Its been over 20 years since the OP purchased 2 Sable Palms units only for MR points, plenty of time to realize that it was an ill advised decision in hindsight.

Better late than never.....

FT


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## BocaBoy (Apr 20, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> First, I will never get it since its my belief that MVCI did nothing wrong when they sold me my weeks.  I was already a PLT member in MR way before I purchased any timeshare units.  Additionally, my governing documents which I read prior to purchase said that the MR program was an affiliate program offered to owners but could be cancelled at any time. So I didn't hang my purchase decision on a benefit that can be cancelled at anytime.
> 
> The OP's position is understandable as many timeshare purchasers don't comprehend what they are buying nor do they read the purchase documents or ask questions.  Their lack of understanding is no excuse for calling the establishment a rip-off.
> 
> ...


It must be nice to know everything and always be right and talk down to others who in reality are probably right at least as often as you.


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## BocaBoy (Apr 20, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> The miss is from timeshare owners who never expected MR to be devalued over time.  That is a tiny percentage of the total population of MR account holders.  Most of these folks are not timeshare owners.
> 
> Those of us who were MR account holders prior to being timeshare owners were accustomed to devaluations in MR points since we experienced this over time from the MR program's inception.  So no real surprise there.
> 
> ...



Again you miss the point.  The issue being discussed here is not really the devaluation of MR points, but rather MVCI's decision to devalue the MR exchange option.  The issue being debated here is not so much with Marriott (hotel company) but rather with the timeshare exchange value which is in MVCI's discretion.)  And you are wrong when you say the MR point devaluations have been happening since inception.  Actually in the first few years the benefits were significantly increased and then the devaluations started in the 1990's.  

A better analogy than the ones you have used would be if the rules were changed so you could only exchange a week through II for only 3 nights instead of another full week at another property.  II exchanges are also not guaranteed.  Do you think owners would have no right to be upset if that change was made?


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## BocaBoy (Apr 20, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> The OP's position is understandable as many timeshare purchasers don't comprehend what they are buying nor do they read the purchase documents or ask questions.  Their lack of understanding is no excuse for calling the establishment a rip-off.
> 
> Its also understandable that those who see their timeshare purchases as financial investments and not pre-paid vacations as the ones most resentful for program changes.
> 
> ...



I was in fact a very knowledgeable buyer when we purchased at Sabal Palms in 1987.  Based on his posts, I think the OP was also a knowledgeable buyer.  I am not happy with the erosion of the MR points option (especially over the last 10-15 years), but buying in 1987 was NOT an ill-advised decision.  I got a lot more value (multiples of my investment) from it than it ever cost me and I would make the same decision today even if I knew what would happen.  The value was that great.  It was truly one of the best financial decisions I ever made.  That does not mean I should be happy that the option has essentially been taken away.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 20, 2014)

BocaBoy said:


> I was in fact a very knowledgeable buyer when we purchased at Sabal Palms in 1987.  Based on his posts, I think the OP was also a knowledgeable buyer.  I am not happy with the erosion of the MR points option (especially over the last 10-15 years), but buying in 1987 was NOT an ill-advised decision.  I got a lot more value (multiples of my investment) from it than it ever cost me and I would make the same decision today even if I knew what would happen.  The value was that great.  It was truly one of the best financial decisions I ever made.  That does not mean I should be happy that the option has essentially been taken away.



I am happy also with our purchase.  I believe most MVCI owners are as well.

I couldn't be more excited about being a shareholder in such a well managed company.

FT


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## Frisbeeace (Apr 20, 2014)

BocaBoy summarized everything so well in his last 2 posts that there is little else to add. I do think myself as a knowledgeable buyer and was always considered the local Marriott expert among friends and relatives. I am so sorry for those, like my parents, whom I convinced to buy weeks 10 years ago right before the program took a sudden plunge and now feel stuck with them. I know the program pretty well to realize that its older form is exhausted (MRPs worthless, II dry of attractive weeks, rental program heavy taxed for foreigners, occupancy rare while leaving so far) and the new one just convenient for those owners who bought at beach or ski resorts. 

Are those who buy today in the Destination Programs knowledgeable buyers or just people that trust the Marriott name and will be deceived years from now with another major change? Are they trustworthy after what they did to weeks owners? What would happen if Marriott increases the amount of points needed to redeem stays in the new program? A riot?   If they can't, why they do with the old program? MRPs and Destination Points exchange rates are arbitrarily managed by Marriott and they should do it in fair way. There is no justification to buy my nights at the same price (in MRPs currency) that they had 20 years ago. 

The trade in for MRPs option should be kept updated and valid for those owners that rely on it like most foreign owners.


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## Frisbeeace (Apr 20, 2014)

By the way, this was my letter to MVCI complaining about the same issue, written 7 years ago.

"March 27, 2007.

Dear Mr. Peter Watzka,

I have been a very happy, satisfied and loyal Marriott Owner for 14 years. During all this time I have promoted both ownership at Marriott properties and the benefits of the Rewards Program among family and friends. Many of them followed my enthusiastic recommendations and became owners. Every while I meet with them to explain, with a good deal of patience, how they can make a better use of their properties and their MR points.

However, I am struggling through a faith crisis about the Rewards Program and the advantages of ownership. It happens that I am deeply concerned about the recent changes in the Rewards Program and how it will affect owners in the near future. 

As you may be aware, a few weeks ago 535 hotels experienced a category change so they now require more points to redeem an award stay. Also, the availability of Standard Rewards at most popular destinations has been drastically reduced and is non-existent at some properties. This fact makes harder to use the hotel portion of the very much appreciated Travel Packages. Most hotels only show availability by using Stay Anytime Rewards which, by the way, will increase the required points from a 50% to 100% premium in June. Other rewards like tours, tickets, cruises, etc., also require significantly more points than last year.

Points devaluation is understandable and reasonable as hotel rates have increased steeply during the last 4 years which result in more points accrued by members which eventually press for rewards. Amidst the current hotel industry boom, our properties have experienced a significant increase in their values (Sabal Palms went up 39% in one year) as well as their rates. However, if we trade our weeks for points we still receive the same fixed amount of them regardless of  the higher value of our property and the nights you can rent. It looks unfair to me that we give Marriott the use of a week that has more value every year but we receive points that are worth less and less as devaluation progresses. If Marriott does not adjust our revenue in term of points the trade-in alternative will collapse and soon will affect new timeshare sales. As far as myself, in this new scenario of higher purchase prices, devaluated points and reduce award availability, I do not feel comfortable anymore referring people as prospective buyers.

Finally, I believe that Marriott owners should be granted Silver status when we trade in our weeks. The nights that we redeem with our points are not free by any means if you calculate our expenses, taxes and a conservative interest rate over our investment. If we redeem those points for nights, we are basically paying for them so we deserve those nights to count towards elite status. 

I am confident that Marriott will review these issues and will make some changes pretty soon and I hope that you can find a way to keep owners as happy as always. Thank you very much for your attention.

Sincerely,

XX"


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## radmoo (Apr 20, 2014)

And his response was???


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## BocaBoy (Apr 20, 2014)

Frisbeeace said:


> By the way, this was my letter to MVCI complaining about the same issue, written 7 years ago.
> 
> "March 27, 2007.
> 
> ...


I wrote a similar letter on January 16, 2009 and I received no response of any kind.  That was during the period when I felt Marriott no longer cared about its owners.  I sold my last Sabal Palms week after this.  I think that MVCI's attitude toward its owners has improved since the spinoff, but not on the subject of this thread.  And that subject is most critical to owners of non-lockoff units like Sabal Palms, which are eligible to trade for MR points every year.


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## bogey21 (Apr 21, 2014)

BocaBoy said:


> I wrote a similar letter on January 16, 2009 and I received no response of any kind.  That was during the period when I felt Marriott no longer cared about its owners.  *I sold my last Sabal Palms week after this*.........



Apparently you and I both showed our displeasure and sold when we became disillusioned by changes Marriott  made to the programs that were in place when we bought.  Many others just hung in there, I believe to their detriment.

George


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## pacheco18 (Apr 21, 2014)

I see it differently.

If you bought where you wanted to go 20 years ago you got 20 years of vacations.
Add the annual maintenance over 20 years to the purchase price and divide by 20.  That is what your annual vacation stay cost you.

Could you have rented a 2 bedroom villa for that price each year?
Or maybe you were able to turn your week into 3 weeks as many of us did with trades.  Maybe change the divisor to 40 or 60.

That was essentially what you bought.  You got the benefit of the bargain IMO.  Even if you sell for a fraction of what you paid you are ahead of the game.


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## bogey21 (Apr 21, 2014)

You are missing the point.  Sabal Palms was the first TS built by Marriott.  When I bought they very clearly sold their Resale Program, their Rental Program and the ability to trade for a specific number of MRPs every year as part of the "package".  What I bought was the right to my unit every year and access to these Programs.  They then devalued these Programs to my detriment.  So I voted with my feet and sold my Sabal Palms, Harbour Club, Heritage Club and Monarch Weeks because I felt I could no longer trust Marriott.

George

PS Again, don't get me wrong.  Nothing wrong with the Resorts, just Marriott Corporate's greed.  The Resorts are great.


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## pacheco18 (Apr 21, 2014)

bogey21 said:


> You are missing the point.  Sabal Palms was the first TS built by Marriott.  When I bought they very clearly sold their Resale Program, their Rental Program and the ability to trade for a specific number of MRPs every year as part of the "package".  What I bought was the right to my unit every year and access to these Programs.  They then devalued these Programs to my detriment.  So I voted with my feet and sold my Sabal Palms, Harbour Club, Heritage Club and Monarch Weeks because I felt I could no longer trust Marriott.
> 
> George
> 
> PS Again, don't get me wrong.  Nothing wrong with the Resorts, just Marriott Corporate's greed.  The Resorts are great.



I did not miss your point.
I made a different point beginning with "If you bought where you wanted to go 20 years ago" . . . .I said nothing about trading or renting or MRPs.
You obviously did not buy where you wanted to go -- so my post does not apply to you.


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## wuv pooh (Apr 21, 2014)

bogey21 said:


> You are missing the point.  Sabal Palms was the first TS built by Marriott.  When I bought they very clearly sold their Resale Program, their Rental Program and the ability to trade for a specific number of MRPs every year as part of the "package".  What I bought was the right to my unit every year and access to these Programs.  They then devalued these Programs to my detriment.  So I voted with my feet and sold my Sabal Palms, Harbour Club, Heritage Club and Monarch Weeks because I felt I could no longer trust Marriott.
> 
> George
> 
> PS Again, don't get me wrong.  Nothing wrong with the Resorts, just Marriott Corporate's greed.  The Resorts are great.



We get the point.  However, you also signed a document that said you understood that the "package" was a mirage and subject to change at any time.  The only thing you are buying is a week of occupancy per year at Sabal Palms, nothing more nothing less and it is not an investment.

FL was trying to tell you and protect you from exactly what happened so it should not have been a surprise.

As PP stated, I got far more from my weeks than promised so no regrets here.  Still a happy owner and enjoying my vacations.


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## answeeney (Apr 21, 2014)

wuv pooh said:


> We get the point.  However, you also signed a document that said you understood that the "package" was a mirage and subject to change at any time.  The only thing you are buying is a week of occupancy per year at Sabal Palms, nothing more nothing less and it is not an investment.
> 
> FL was trying to tell you and protect you from exactly what happened so it should not have been a surprise.
> 
> As PP stated, I got far more from my weeks than promised so no regrets here.  Still a happy owner and enjoying my vacations.



This is exactly the sort of post that makes my hackles rise. You're okay with your situation so you think anyone else should be too and yet you don't reveal any real understanding of the issue being discussed. For example, nobody other than FT has mentioned buying as an investment so why do you bring this spurious and irrelevant point up too?

And why do you think it is okay for Marriott to sell features that are later diluted or withdrawn just because the small print says they can? The point being made by the OP and others is that they thought they could trust Marriott to be honourable and you and FT seem to be saying that they are fools for thinking so, even though they didn't have the benefit of the hindsight that you both seem to rely on so heavily.

It is a cliche that you buy only home week usage and those that constantly spew out this 'golden rule' reek of complacency. The fact is that is not what is being sold. The ability to exchange is an integral part of buying timeshares and, yes, the exchange options are subject to change but is it really okay for the changes to be constantly to the detriment of the purchaser. I can only assume that you and FT run payday loan companies.


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## bogey21 (Apr 21, 2014)

wuv pooh said:


> FL was trying to tell you and protect you from exactly what happened so it should not have been a surprise.



Fortunately I didn't need FL to protect me.  I handled the situation my way.  When I didn't like what was happening I sold my 4 Weeks, at a profit I might add.  Actually in hindsight I am better off for selling my Marriott Weeks and using 1/10 of the $85,000 sale proceeds to buy Weeks at 6 HOA controlled Independent Resorts which I enjoyed for years.

George


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## Frisbeeace (Apr 21, 2014)

pacheco18 said:


> I see it differently.
> If you bought where you wanted to go 20 years ago you got 20 years of vacations.



That's another false assumption. Sales pitches are completely different when Marriott sells to customers outside the US. In the 90's and until a few years ago they were very persuasive in telling us that the best deal was to buy anywhere where we could trade for as many MRPs as possible every year, regardless of its location. I know people that bought in Williamsburg without even knowing where it was located on the map because of the convenient cost/profit (in MRPs) ratio. For people in my country, the cost of airfare for the whole family exceeds by far the cost of lodging (1 week = 1 ticket) so the main reason to buy a Marriott timeshare always was the trade-in option to redeem then for travel packages rather than occupying or exchanging at II. MRPs was our saving currency and this was Marriott's main argument to sell their weeks around here. Sabal and Royal Palms sold real well because they allowed trading every year comparing to other resorts that only allowed EOY. Basically, Marriott timeshares were sold like a points program, almost a (faulty) prototype of what the Destination Program is today. People in these countries were actually buying points not weeks as we were assured that those points would grant us travel packagesand hotel stays forever. As BocaBoy recalled, 130,000 points were good for 2 tickets anywhere in the world, 8-nights at a top category hotel and a car!! Now we can barely stay 2-3 nights at a high end hotel. 

Again, if Marriott grants in written that the Destination Programs will not be devalued over time, I can not understand why they did so with the MRPs trade-in option. The only thing they had to do is adjust up what we get. They have room for that as I get 110,000 for a week that they give away for 210,000. 

By the way, Marriott Resales has just offered me $4,300 for each week, less $500 fees and less 10% tax withholding.


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## brigechols (Apr 21, 2014)

Frisbeeace said:


> By the way, Marriott Resales has just offered me $4,300 for each week, less $500 fees and less 10% tax withholding.



There you go, a way to quickly get rid of your weeks.


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## tschwa2 (Apr 21, 2014)

One thing to note that the written guarantee is only that it will not be devalued for any of the current vacation club properties.  There are no such promises for any future vacation resorts, any hotel stays or any of the other vacation trips or cruises that are currently offered by trading in destination points.


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## wuv pooh (Apr 21, 2014)

answeeney said:


> This is exactly the sort of post that makes my hackles rise. You're okay with your situation so you think anyone else should be too and yet you don't reveal any real understanding of the issue being discussed. For example, nobody other than FT has mentioned buying as an investment so why do you bring this spurious and irrelevant point up too?
> 
> And why do you think it is okay for Marriott to sell features that are later diluted or withdrawn just because the small print says they can? The point being made by the OP and others is that they thought they could trust Marriott to be honourable and you and FT seem to be saying that they are fools for thinking so, even though they didn't have the benefit of the hindsight that you both seem to rely on so heavily.
> 
> It is a cliche that you buy only home week usage and those that constantly spew out this 'golden rule' reek of complacency. The fact is that is not what is being sold. The ability to exchange is an integral part of buying timeshares and, yes, the exchange options are subject to change but is it really okay for the changes to be constantly to the detriment of the purchaser. I can only assume that you and FT run payday loan companies.



1. I said that because it is the same disclosure.  You are buying a week, period. Anything else is a promise that you cannot rely on.  In the same disclosure they say you should not buy as an investment.  This  is meant to protect you from the most common salesman lies.

2. Yes, I work in contracts all the time.  When someone tells me they have the legal right to screw me, but that they would never do it then I would not base my decision on that promise.  Sorry you believe different, but you learned.

3. It is not a cliché.  It is what you are buying.  A 1/52nd interest in a condominium.

Marriott is a business and marketing pitches change all the time.  Every time they change there are new value opportunities to take advantage of.  Personally I prefer to use my time finding the value than whining about how things used to be.  I don't think anyone has to feel the same, but I will say that I believe it is a lot more productive.


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## wuv pooh (Apr 21, 2014)

bogey21 said:


> Fortunately I didn't need FL to protect me.  I handled the situation my way.  When I didn't like what was happening I sold my 4 Weeks, at a profit I might add.  Actually in hindsight I am better off for selling my Marriott Weeks and using 1/10 of the $85,000 sale proceeds to buy Weeks at 6 HOA controlled Independent Resorts which I enjoyed for years.
> 
> George



I agree. I also received more value from Marriott than I paid for.  Now I have to extract that value in a different manner, but I still like using the weeks and taking the vacations.  

I am glad it worked out for you.  Really only early DVC or Marriott purchasers ever made any cash money on developer purchases.  Some have done quite well on resales.


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## wuv pooh (Apr 21, 2014)

Frisbeeace said:


> Again, if Marriott grants in written that the Destination Programs will not be devalued over time, I can not understand why they did so with the MRPs trade-in option. The only thing they had to do is adjust up what we get. They have room for that as I get 110,000 for a week that they give away for 210,000.



Marriott makes no such promise.  Destination points are deeded just like weeks are, so by definition cannot be devalued or Marriott could sell the same resort multiple times which is illegal.  They can redistribute points but they cannot devalue them in a total sense.

In the coming years people will be complaining that they can no longer trade into the Ritz Carlton Club for as few points, or that cruises cost more points, etc.  Any usage option beside occupying your week will be devalued.  

That is how the business model handles inflation over time.  You have purchased a currency (week or points) for a fixed price in advance.  When you try to exchange that currency over time (other than for its purpose) it will buy less due to inflation in the travel industry.

Once you figure this out you game the system, get out of the game, or complain, but I do not see Marriott changing their business model.


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## puckmanfl (Apr 21, 2014)

good evening...

This thread is becoming disturbing... but it is TUG...unless you bought resale where you want to go, you have no right to lament anything else...

We will need to close a lot of threads...

We all bought a week in our season, nothing more nothing less..

so...

IF II inventory dries up...sorry trading was never guaranteed..you signed  a document saying so!!!

You can't book a week at your home resort when you want to go, because all the multi week owners got there first..sorry, you do get some week in your season...your platinum week at newport is november...sorry, it is in your season..

MVCD decides to give enrolled DC members fewer points for their week, sorry DC legacy points is trading and this was never guaranteed...

Your OF 3 bedroom (first floor) at Ocean Pointe looks right into the trees and the shuffle  board court and some trees without a hint of seeing the ocean..sorry, you are on the "oceanfront"

MF's going up at 10%/year..sorry, nothing besides your occupancy is guaranteed...

Multi week owners can't book on line at 13 monrths...sorry  you have your week in season!!!!

you get the point..most of the stuff we rant about is about the "other stuff" The OP was just lamenting the loss of MRP power  over time!!!

we are all still are guaranteed a week in our season!!!!

Thanks, I feel better now!!!!


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## bogey21 (Apr 21, 2014)

puckmanfl said:


> .....we are all still are guaranteed a week in our season!!!!



And if you bought from Marriott at developer prices, you are guaranteed a loss when you decide to sell.

George


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## Frisbeeace (Apr 21, 2014)

wuv pooh said:


> Marriott makes no such promise.  Destination points are deeded just like weeks are, so by definition cannot be devalued or Marriott could sell the same resort multiple times which is illegal.  They can redistribute points but they cannot devalue them in a total sense.



What if the points required to stay at your own resort or any other increase? That's a devaluation in every sense. They´ve done that so they most likely will do again. The "skimming" exists because it means profit for them which can be enlarged at their wish.


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## answeeney (Apr 21, 2014)

wuv pooh said:


> 1. I said that because it is the same disclosure.  You are buying a week, period. Anything else is a promise that you cannot rely on.  In the same disclosure they say you should not buy as an investment.  This  is meant to protect you from the most common salesman lies.
> 
> 2. Yes, I work in contracts all the time.  When someone tells me they have the legal right to screw me, but that they would never do it then I would not base my decision on that promise.  Sorry you believe different, but you learned.
> 
> ...



You say you are buying a week, period, and yes you are right. But that is not what is being sold and that is not what the vast majority of purchasers understand that they are buying. All of the timeshare sales material and the pitch itself places considerable emphasis in the exchange opportunities and when Marriott systematically undermines these, in my view, it is being underhand. Yes, clever people like you can sneer at the foolishness of people who didn't spend a year reading TUG boards prior to purchase and who don't have contract law training and so don't buy resale and, crime of all crimes, take the salesmen's pitch on trust. It is always easy to mock anyone who takes a decision that you with your extra wisdom would not have taken. But is Marriott's only role in this to maximise the take from the marks that stroll into its salerooms?


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## SueDonJ (Apr 21, 2014)

Frisbeeace said:


> What if the points required to stay at your own resort or any other increase? That's a devaluation in every sense. They´ve done that so they most likely will do again. The "skimming" exists because it means profit for them which can be enlarged at their wish.



Skimming was built into the DC introduction by way of enrolled Weeks' DC Points allowances, but I don't believe that it can continue to happen through "inflationary" increases in the DC Points Charts, the way it happens with Marriott Rewards Points.  We have to remember that the DC Points Charts are subject to timeshare laws and all amounts have to correlate to the DC Trust.  The Marriott Rewards program is an entirely different animal in that it's a customer rewards system which Marriott can interpret and amend as they see fit.

Although the DC governing docs don't make the entire metric perfectly clear, Marriott execs and reps have said that any increases of Points requirements in a single resort's Points Chart must be offset by matching-amount decreases elsewhere in that chart (and not elsewhere as in anywhere in any other resorts' Charts.)  To date since the DC inception the only such increases have occurred with holidays during the 2015 Points Chart, and in fact all of those increases were offset by decreases within the same resort Charts.

See this TUG thread; note the link in Post #4 to a statement from TUGger MVCI Customer Advocate, a user name associated with Marriott's Customer Advocacy office.

Having said all that, it's possible for Marriott to devalue DC Exchange Members' usage by decreasing the DC Points allowances for enrolled Weeks.  There's no telling if/when that will happen but probably Marriott already knows whatever target numbers that would trigger it.  This type of devaluation wouldn't affect purchased DC Trust Points.


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## tschwa2 (Apr 21, 2014)

I don't think Marriott sales reps originally sold with the promise of exchanging to MR points with the direct knowledge that in the future their would be a major devaluation.  I am sure the decision to keep the MR points flat for turning in the TS while increasing the MR points needed for various hotel stays and air programs was made by a department other than sales.  The devaluation of hotel points and airline points is a reality throughout the travel industry not just the TS industry.  Now that Marriott spun the Vacation division into a separate company exchanging for MR points is kind of like exchanging with any outside vendor.   Marriott vacations could increase the number of points to keep them more in line but especially since they aren't selling weeks anymore it doesn't even make sense to subsidize the program as a sales incentive.  

I think earlier in the thread someone mentioned that none of the major hotel timeshares increased hotel rewards points for trading in the timeshare week.  I actually think Hilton did a one time adjustment but only on a scale of something like a 25% increase that went along with just about a 100% increase in the number of points required for most hotel stays ( total increase after several years of increases).  Hilton is still in active sales but even with the increase trading a weeks worth of TS stay for hotel stay isn't a very good financial incentive but sales reps still try to spin it like it is.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 21, 2014)

tschwa2 said:


> I don't think Marriott sales reps originally sold with the promise of exchanging to MR points with the direct knowledge that in the future their would be a major devaluation.  I am sure the decision to keep the MR points flat for turning in the TS while increasing the MR points needed for various hotel stays and air programs was made by a department other than sales.  The devaluation of hotel points and airline points is a reality throughout the travel industry not just the TS industry.  Now that Marriott spun the Vacation division into a separate company exchanging for MR points is kind of like exchanging with any outside vendor.   Marriott vacations could increase the number of points to keep them more in line but especially since they aren't selling weeks anymore it doesn't even make sense to subsidize the program as a sales incentive.



I am not sure one is really exchanging through an outside vendor when they trade their week for MR points. Sure they get points in the MR program. However, I think that MVCI is purchasing points from Marriott Rewards. Then giving those points out in a number of ways, sales incentives, tour incentives and MR point week conversions. Sales and marketing pay for the two former and renting out a week converted to MR points is what pays for the former.

So MVCI takes your week, gives you points and rents out the week for more and more cash each year while still handing out the same number of MR points to the owner.


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## tschwa2 (Apr 21, 2014)

I understand but the fact that Marriott rewards devalued what a Marriott reward point could purchase doesn't mean that they are selling the Marriott reward points to MVCI for less than what they sold them for 10 years ago.  MVCI could afford to buy more points (and then pass them along) because they are making more renting the vacation club units now than they were 10 years ago.  The points were a selling point and at the price the vacation club division paid per point it worked out well for both Marriott and for owners.  I'm sure MVCI isn't losing money on the points payouts overall currently but are they really able to rent all of those Orlando units (and other units in overbuilt areas) that are given in for MR points?  The difference between some of the gold and silver weeks and platinum weeks aren't huge but there are probably a fair number of units that don't get rented out at all or for very little during even shoulder season at resorts with lots of inventory.  Marriott also has their own weeks to rent out and getting $400 from in Interval Getaway rental may not pay for the MR points given to the owner. 

I completely understand the frustration of the OP and the desire for MVCI to "make it right", I just don't see it happening and selling ASAP even for a loss seems to be the best solution although surely not the one he was hoping for.


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## siesta (Apr 21, 2014)

answeeney said:


> This is exactly the sort of post that makes my hackles rise. You're okay with your situation so you think anyone else should be too and yet you don't reveal any real understanding of the issue being discussed. For example, nobody other than FT has mentioned buying as an investment so why do you bring this spurious and irrelevant point up too?
> 
> And why do you think it is okay for Marriott to sell features that are later diluted or withdrawn just because the small print says they can? The point being made by the OP and others is that they thought they could trust Marriott to be honourable and you and FT seem to be saying that they are fools for thinking so, even though they didn't have the benefit of the hindsight that you both seem to rely on so heavily.
> 
> It is a cliche that you buy only home week usage and those that constantly spew out this 'golden rule' reek of complacency. The fact is that is not what is being sold. The ability to exchange is an integral part of buying timeshares and, yes, the exchange options are subject to change but is it really okay for the changes to be constantly to the detriment of the purchaser. I can only assume that you and FT run payday loan companies.


 what a well-worded and on-point post.  If this were Facebook I would "Like" this.

Btw, TugBrian, any chance to get up/down vote ability for posts?


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## Fayeoctober (Apr 22, 2014)

I agree with siesta that the post by answeeney was very well worded and on point.  We bought our Marriott Manor Club in Williamsburg about 20 years ago with the intention of staying there most of the time but the point option was an added attraction.  Also at that time they had a hotel in Bermuda - since closed - and that was appealing as well.    I really don't think some of the comments which imply that some buyers should have known what was going on are appropriate.

If I had to do it over again knowing what I know now I would not have purchased our timeshare in Williamsburg.  The Marriott name held a lot of sway and it has decreased significantly in my eyes.  

But would I try and sell my timeshare in this market where they are going for practically next to nothing - no - it has gotten me some decent trades with Interval and we do use it most years.  And I imagine the weeks that I did turn in for points, although not recently, helped me to get to Lifetime Platinum Elite Status with the Rewards program.


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## EducatedConsumer (Apr 22, 2014)

The O.P. is correct, there was a time when Marriott's sales and marketing platform at Sabal and Royal Palm was "buy two Red weeks, and you'll have enough points for a World Trip every year (at that time: 7 nights in any Marriott Hotel worldwide, 2 round trip airline tickets anywhere Marriott's affiliated airlines fly in the world, and a 7 or 8 day Hertz rental car)." Each Marriott Vacation Club resort back than seemed to have their own, unique, sales and marketing catch: for example, at Desert Springs Villas I, it was occupy the studio, give Marriott your master suite to rent, and the rental income from your master suite will pay for your maintenance fee (and you'll still have a week of vacation at Desert Springs Villas I (in your studio)). At Summit Watch, when Marriott had sold out much of their Platinum, and later gold weeks, the platform was: buy a silver week, Interval is color blind, and use that silver week to go anywhere you want in the Marriott system.

Having owned at Sabal Palm, since pretty much it's inception, I look back at the years of wonderful vacations that our family enjoyed, and have no regrets. Those were the days. However, the value proposition of our Marriott weeks has changed (as it relates to points and rental income). We look back at the vacations that we have enjoyed, and our up-front, and annualized costs, and have no regrets. We got far more than our money's worth out of those weeks (in the day!). Now, our weeks have far less value to us, and our strategy is to look back at the many wonderful vacations that we had, and to enjoy those memories, and to look forward, and sell our weeks for whatever we can get for them.

What's that saying, someone's junk is someone else's treasure?


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## thinze3 (Apr 22, 2014)

So the OP still gets his same 110,000 MR points but he now needs 280,000 to reserve his own unit.

It probably took 150,000 MR points to reserve his own unit when he bought.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 22, 2014)

Stepping back for a moment and considering the content of this thread as a whole, the question I would like to solicit additional feedback on is as follows:

*How different is this from any other company that enhances, modifies, tweaks, changes, deletes, or evolves its core product offerings over time?*

Understanding that changes over time may benefit or negatively impact some portion of the customer base with every modification introduced.

There is a product life cycle that companies use to evolve their offerings based upon what they think will sell in the short term and towards the future.  That's an essential part of corporate sustainability.

Many that have commented in this thread have stated that the benefits were great when they purchased 20 years ago but now not so much for them.  Certainly the product has evolved over time to what it is today (rightly or wrongly).

And most of those same owners complaining here today 20 years later are a true testament to the program that value is still being derived from the program (one way or another).

Unfortunately, what was a good offer before may not be a good offer in todays marketplace.  So in reality what we are experiencing with the program is its evolution into what Marriott may feel is best for the marketplace today and the profile of the leisure traveler in 2014 not necessarily the one from 1984 when the program was launched.

If they had continued to sell and market the product today the same way they did 20 years ago would they even still be around?

The evolution to the points program has been well documented and each and every quarterly review since the spinoff indicate that the program has been well received and as a result the company is doing well for the moment.

In fact customer satisfaction rates have gone up a few percentage points since the program's evolution in 2010.

So with all this in mind, is what they have done to evolve their products really any different than what any other company would look to do with their products over time?

I think not.

FT


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## SueDonJ (Apr 22, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> … *How different is this from any other company that enhances, modifies, tweaks, changes, deletes, or evolves its core product offerings over time?* ...



It's not, really, as has been acknowledged already by most everyone participating in this thread.  But just because Marriott can devalue this one particular exchange component of their timeshares, doesn't mean that owners won't continue to lament the value loss of what was the single, defining difference between a Marriott-direct purchase and any external purchases.

I said it before in this thread - this one thing isn't the same as all the other misconceptions, lies, fabrications (whatever you want to call them) that some sales reps used to sell Marriott timeshares.  The MRP exchange option was a real, tangible, valuable benefit that has been systematically eroded.

I'm usually among the first to say that what's in the governing docs is the be-all and end-all that stipulates what Marriott might "owe" us.  You're correct, FT, that the particular governing doc related to this benefit clearly states the exact amount of MRP for which a Week can be exchanged, as well as the fact that the benefit isn't a deeded right but rather an add-on amendment which contains language allowing Marriott to implement at will.  Obviously Marriott has the right to never deviate from the exact MRP amounts.

But others are also correct that Marriott has always had the right, by virtue of that language, to implement it in such a way that the MRP values could have been increased (or decreased) to correlate to every hotel/resort category changes that Marriott has made over the years.  Marriott chose not to do that - and IMO the timeshare owners who fault Marriott for not doing that are justified in assigning that fault.

FT, I wish you would answer the question that's been asked repeatedly - if Marriott had chosen in cooperation with II to implement that exchange system such that the values of Weeks in II would have consistently devalued over the years, would you be as accepting of it?  It's almost a guarantee that no one would!  But the contractual arrangement between MVCI/MVW and II allows as much leeway as that between MVCI/MVW and MR, so why is it tolerable that the Weeks exchange values are only protected in one system and not the other?


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## bogey21 (Apr 22, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> If they had continued to sell and market the product today the same way they did 20 years ago would they even still be around?



*Yes!  And I would probably still be an Owner!*

George


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 22, 2014)

SueDonJ said:


> It's not, really, as has been acknowledged already by most everyone participating in this thread.  But just because Marriott can devalue this one particular exchange component of their timeshares, doesn't mean that owners won't continue to lament the value loss of what was the single, defining difference between a Marriott-direct purchase and any external purchases.
> 
> I said it before in this thread - this one thing isn't the same as all the other misconceptions, lies, fabrications (whatever you want to call them) that some sales reps used to sell Marriott timeshares.  The MRP exchange option was a real, tangible, valuable benefit that has been systematically eroded.
> 
> ...



Sue,

I would love to answer that question but regrettably I feel unqualified to do so since I have only used II twice in my lifetime (once for Trapp family lodge in Vermont and once for Banff in Canada).  For my usage, II is a non factor.  It can go away tomorrow and it would not affect my vacation experience.

Our usage over the years has been to occupy, rent out, or give the weeks away to family/friends when we could not occupy.  Only traded for MR option once back in 1999.

If they ever did that one day, I sincerely doubt I would care but that is just based upon our historical usage.  I understand others love II exchanges and it would be a hardship if it occurred.

FT


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## jhac007 (Apr 22, 2014)

*Weeks vs. Points*

One version.....a week is seven days any where in this country and how can anyone Marriott/Governments etc. change that?  Sure we would be upset if it were tried but that's a pretty sure given!  Now it has been said "weeks" are obsolete and all kinds of other negative reasoning, but, my opinion is surely all the Developers saw they have far less control over weeks over a long period of time therefore WE need to add to/introduce a new product. Enter points systems that solved all the flexibility problems that weeks lacked and what ever else perks that may be applied!  Great news, but the Developers have now got you back where they want you and they can control value directly and harshly if desired.  The old weeks owners are still hanging around but a week is a week and also has some power.  I have mostly weeks, one small points account (which I probably will get rid of) and use MR points.  Marriott has always had control over MR points and to those that have not realized it yet will always have control of DC points.  BTW, I am being realistic and realize Developers will try every trick to get rid of the weeks gig or make owners think they are worthless but meanwhile for the points group it's like "boiling the frog"!

Jim


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## Frisbeeace (Apr 22, 2014)

tschwa2 said:


> The devaluation of hotel points and airline points is a reality throughout the travel industry not just the TS industry.



I'm not complaining for the devaluation of my banked MRPs which I understand and accept. I complain for devaluation of *my nights*. They are a good, a product that I trade when I can't use it. 

I get paid, in MRP currency, the same price as 20 years ago while Marriott sell my product at 2-3x more!! Can anyone argue with this? Those who talk about inflation don't think that it should also impact on my nights?

Marriott is doing it differently now with the DC with the restriction to compensante highs with lows. But they will devaluate DC points against other uses like hotel stays, cruises, safaris or whatever they are tempting new customers with.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 22, 2014)

Frisbeeace said:


> I'm not complaining for the devaluation of my banked MRPs which I understand and accept. I complain for devaluation of *my nights*. They are a good, a product that I trade when I can't use it.
> 
> I get paid, in MRP currency, the same price as 20 years ago while Marriott sell my product at 2-3x more!! Can anyone argue with this? Those who talk about inflation don't think that it should also impact on my nights?
> 
> Marriott is doing it differently now with the DC with the restriction to compensante highs with lows. But they will devaluate DC points against other uses like hotel stays, cruises, safaris or whatever they are tempting new customers with.



You can rent your own product at 2-3x more than what you paid 20 years ago as well......

FT


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## taffy19 (Apr 22, 2014)

wuv pooh said:


> We get the point. However, you also signed a document that said you understood that the "package" was a mirage and subject to change at any time. The only thing you are buying is a week of occupancy per year at Sabal Palms, nothing more nothing less and it is not an investment.
> 
> *FL was trying to tell you and protect you from exactly what happened so it should not have been a surprise.*
> 
> As PP stated, I got far more from my weeks than promised so no regrets here. Still a happy owner and enjoying my vacations.


Please, can you clarify?  There may be others who do not know about this either.  TIA.


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## taffy19 (Apr 22, 2014)

thinze3 said:


> So the OP still gets his same 110,000 MR points but he now needs 280,000 to reserve his own unit.
> 
> It probably took 150,000 MR points to reserve his own unit when he bought.




Does this mean that the OP can't reserve his week like we can here in the USA? I am lost.  No wonder he is griping if this is true.


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## taffy19 (Apr 22, 2014)

jhac007 said:


> One version.....a week is seven days any where in this country and how can anyone Marriott/Governments etc. change that? Sure we would be upset if it were tried but that's a pretty sure given! Now it has been said "weeks" are obsolete and all kinds of other negative reasoning, but, my opinion is surely all the Developers saw they have far less control over weeks over a long period of time therefore WE need to add to/introduce a new product. Enter points systems that solved all the flexibility problems that weeks lacked and what ever else perks that may be applied! Great news, but the Developers have now got you back where they want you and they can control value directly and harshly if desired. The old weeks owners are still hanging around but a week is a week and also has some power. I have mostly weeks, one small points account (which I probably will get rid of) and use MR points. Marriott has always had control over MR points and to those that have not realized it yet will always have control of DC points. BTW, I am being realistic and realize Developers will try every trick to get rid of the weeks gig or make owners think they are worthless but meanwhile for the points group it's like "boiling the frog"!
> 
> Jim


They can't mess with fixed week/unit owners as far as I know, at least, I hope so.

We used part of our points this year as rents are very high where the Marriott is located in Ka'anapali Beach. We will not do that again because we lost our whole 2 BR condo while you can lock-off with II. Using points for another location would be OK so we are staying in the DC program. We are rewarded many points so it is a good exchange for the Maui owners. I wonder if that can be changed also?

Buying for use is the very best approach and always has been or will be, IMO.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 22, 2014)

Frisbeeace said:


> I'm not complaining for the devaluation of my banked MRPs which I understand and accept. I complain for devaluation of *my nights*. They are a good, a product that I trade when I can't use it.
> 
> I get paid, in MRP currency, the same price as 20 years ago while Marriott sell my product at 2-3x more!! Can anyone argue with this? Those who talk about inflation don't think that it should also impact on my nights?
> 
> Marriott is doing it differently now with the DC with the restriction to compensante highs with lows. But they will devaluate DC points against other uses like hotel stays, cruises, safaris or whatever they are tempting new customers with.



According to Marriott.com there are 21 Hotels across 7 brands in South America today.

You mentioned in your first post that "As a foreign owner you can not occupy or travel with the whole family every year" so maybe you could travel regionally every other year or so and still take advantage of your MR benefits.

Of the 21 hotels over 75% are CAT 6 or less in 2014.  Meaning you could use your 110K MR points every other year for a 7 night stay at a nice hotel in LATAM.  That is for only one of your Sable Palms weeks.  If you combined the MR points for both weeks then you would have a nice vacation each year.

You could also take advantage of travel packages, Point Savers, and Seasonal Awards to enhance your MR vacations at Marriott hotels.

So all is not lost with your specific usage scenario.

FT


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## dioxide45 (Apr 22, 2014)

iconnections said:


> Does this mean that the OP can't reserve his week like we can here in the USA? I am lost.  No wonder he is griping if this is true.



Terry is just pointing out the "skim" on MR conversion of the OPs week to MR points and if he tried to turn around and book that same 7 nights with a MR hotel certificate.

The OP can still reserve his home resort week at Sabal Palms for 7 nights. Though living in South America makes traveling for that week difficult and costly.

This is a problem that many foreign owners face. Especially those outside of Europe. Those in Europe also have similar challenges, but at least they have a few resorts close by to pick from.


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## BocaBoy (Apr 22, 2014)

This has been a very interesting thread, and I want to thank the several of you who sent me PMs thanking me for my contributions.  As answeeney said in one post, this thread also "got my hackles up" and I appreciate the support I have received.  I have owned Marriott timeshares longer than just about everyone else here and sometimes this historical perspective is indeed relevant to understanding an issue.


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## OldPantry (Apr 23, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> And 20 years ago fuel was 1.29/Gal., a loaf of bread was .39 cents, and a flight to London from Miami was $500.
> 
> So, what exactly is your point?  Maybe your expectation was that Hotels rooms would still be rented for $59 dollars/night after 20 years?
> 
> ...


Hey FT, you're mangling the guy's point.  Sure, there's been inflation in the cost of hotel rooms, but do you think his maintenance fees haven't risen sharply over the years as well?  Why is it unreasonable for him to be disappointed that his points cost him far more now than originally, but can be exchanged for far fewer nights than before?  Marriott's steady debasement of point values has damaged its timeshare clientelle, and they have every right to be angry.  And please, at least do the math correctly: seven nights at $1400 would be $200 a night, hardly the absurd $59 figure you accuse him of expecting.  You hauled that number out of ... where?


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## bogey21 (Apr 23, 2014)

BocaBoy said:


> This has been a very interesting thread, and I want to thank the several of you who sent me PMs thanking me for my contributions.  As answeeney said in one post, this thread also "got my hackles up" and I appreciate the support I have received.  I have owned Marriott timeshares longer than just about everyone else here and sometimes this historical perspective is indeed relevant to understanding an issue.



Hear, hear!  You and I must have bought at the same time.  I bought pre-construction without ever visiting the property.  While I was at the airport waiting for my flight home from HHI I opened my copy of the Island Packet and found two full page ads for TS Weeks, Sabal Palms and Kemmons Wilson's Orange Lake.  I called both, talked to Salesmen and bought a Week at Sabal Palms on the phone from the Savannah Airport.  Even at Developer prices it was a great buy when you factored in the ability to exchange for MRP every year and Marriott's Rental Program and Resale Programs.  

George


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## BocaBoy (Apr 23, 2014)

bogey21 said:


> Hear, hear!  You and I must have bought at the same time.  I bought pre-construction without ever visiting the property.  While I was at the airport waiting for my flight home from HHI I opened my copy of the Island Packet and found two full page ads for TS Weeks, Sabal Palms and Kemmons Wilson's Orange Lake.  I called both, talked to Salesmen and bought a Week at Sabal Palms on the phone from the Savannah Airport.  Even at Developer prices it was a great buy when you factored in the ability to exchange for MRP every year and Marriott's Rental Program and Resale Programs.
> 
> George


We visited the property, saw the model and bought in October 1987.  We took our two kids on a 3-4 day long weekend trip to Disney World and stayed at the World Center on one of those sales trips they had just started--cheap hotel room and small bunch of MR points to take a sales tour.  We went kind of expecting to buy and we were not disappointed.  And financially it was also a great INVESTMENT.  Too many people won't consider the possibility that things were different in the earlier days.


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## Frisbeeace (Apr 25, 2014)

FractionalTraveler said:


> According to Marriott.com there are 21 Hotels across 7 brands in South America today.
> 
> You mentioned in your first post that "As a foreign owner you can not occupy or travel with the whole family every year" so maybe you could travel regionally every other year or so and still take advantage of your MR benefits.
> 
> ...



No thanks. Even though I live in the thirld world, I like to spend my vacantions in the same places like everybody else. Most Marriotts in South America are just business hotels.


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## siesta (Apr 26, 2014)

Frisbeeace said:


> No thanks. Even though I live in the thirld world, I like to spend my vacantions in the same places like everybody else. Most Marriotts in South America are just business hotels.


I'm not sure if you were just saying this toungue in cheek. But Argentina is def. not a 3rd world country, they have a relatively high GDP and a decent standard of living. 

Re-reading your post I guess you were talking about South America as a whole, but I still wouldnt consider it as a whole to be third world. Surely "2nd world." but your point is valid, you like to travel in US.

I was just in Colombia on vacation a few months ago, we had a great time, some beautiful areas there. We like to experience diff. cultures. Grass is always greener ...


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## dioxide45 (Apr 26, 2014)

Frisbeeace said:


> No thanks. Even though I live in the thirld world, I like to spend my vacantions in the same places like everybody else. Most Marriotts in South America are just business hotels.



So if you travel where everyone else does, you should have no problems finding a Marriott timeshare to stay in? Why are you converting to Marriott Reward points every year? It seems that you can't travel every year, so can you travel every other year? Did you enroll your week in the Destinations Club? If so, you could convert your week to points and through banking and borrowing you could travel every other or even every third year.


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## Frisbeeace (Apr 26, 2014)

siesta said:


> I'm not sure if you were just saying this toungue in cheek. But Argentina is def. not a 3rd world country, they have a relatively high GDP and a decent standard of living.
> 
> Re-reading your post I guess you were talking about South America as a whole, but I still wouldnt consider it as a whole to be third world. Surely "2nd world." but your point is valid, you like to travel in US.
> 
> I was just in Colombia on vacation a few months ago, we had a great time, some beautiful areas there. We like to experience diff. cultures. Grass is always greener ...



Well, you can call it a developing country but with 30% annual inflation and tons of another problems derived from a government that lines up with Venezuela, Cuba, Bolivia and Angola, our standard of living has deteriorated a lot within the last 10 years. Average monthly salary today is $450... just imagine.


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## Frisbeeace (Apr 26, 2014)

dioxide45 said:


> So if you travel where everyone else does, you should have no problems finding a Marriott timeshare to stay in? Why are you converting to Marriott Reward points every year? It seems that you can't travel every year, so can you travel every other year? Did you enroll your week in the Destinations Club? If so, you could convert your week to points and through banking and borrowing you could travel every other or even every third year.



I travel a lot for business and pleasure. At least twice per year for each purpose but out of my pocket (or my company's). I don't find a good way to travel thanks to my Marriott weeks anymore. I did enroll my weeks in the DC but it is just to save a few bucks on annual fees. Sabal Palms worth little in that system. As most owners in my country, I rely a lot on the trade for MRPs option to travel with my wife.


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