# Advice for Future Marriott DC Purchase



## JIMinNC (Oct 28, 2013)

I haven’t been active on TUG for quite a few years, but have some questions about the Marriott Destinations program.

First some background – we’ve owned a 2BR EY at Diamond’s Kaanapali Beach Club (was an original Embassy owner) for the last 15 years. We’ve used our weeks in Hawaii for 9 of those 15 years.

Over the years, though, we’ve come to want more flexibility than a pure weeks program – the ability to do less than 7 night stays (which we did a lot of prior to timesharing) and the ability to use hotels on future trips to places like Europe where we may want to stay just a couple or three days in several different locations. 

So the flexibility of points-based systems appeals to us. The Diamond points system doesn’t fit, because we don’t like the resort options/locations, and while we love HGVC, their resort options are relatively limited.

So the Marriott Destination program is appealing because we love their resort options and because of the extensive hotel network. We did a preview package in Hilton Head recently with no intent to buy now, but to learn more about the system. We came away feeling that Marriot DC could meet our needs very well as a supplement to (initially) or even an eventual replacement of our Diamond week (if we decide to get rid of it some way in the future). Some of the non-timeshare travel options in the program (Explorer) also have some appeal on the surface, but we need more details on the pluses-minuses.

For the next three years, we are still basically tied to school calendars (our youngest is still in high school and oldest is in college), but I think the primary value to us of DC points would be in a few years when we become semi-empty nesters after both kids are in college, grad school, or work, allowing us to travel in other times of the year. Given our location near Charlotte, we would likely use Hilton Head/Myrtle Beach resorts some in spring and fall, but I could also see us using points to add a few days on another island to a Hawaii trip to our Kaanapali Resort, and there are many, many locations within the Marriott system that we would love to visit as well as the other travel options. We could use 1BR or Hotel units then for us and would only need 2BR if the kids joined us.

Basically, what advice would you Marriott experts offer as the best way to get involved with the Marriott system? Are there valid reasons to buy a minimum number of initial points from Marriott and then add to them with cheaper resale points later? Or, can you buy even your initial points resale without losing privileges or features with the DC system? What else do we need to know?

Our concern is being smart with our money, but not necessarily the cheapest possible option. We're looking for the best balance between cost, usability, and flexibility.  

Thanks for any information you can offer.


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## m61376 (Oct 28, 2013)

Hmmm...lots to address here. The points program is great in that it does give you the flexibility you are looking for, albeit at a higher cost. In theory, being able to add on a few days or book short trips where/when you want is great, but keep in mind the inventory has to be available, and unless you are a Premiere Plus owner, you can't try to reserve less than 7 days until 10 months out (unless you want to pay a 20% premium) and you have to hope what you want is available then.

Also- keep in mind that point costs in Hawaii are high.

Marriott destination club points are not the same as Marmot Reward points, so that the timeshare points can't be used at most hotels. There are a few resorts in Europe but they are limited. So for most European travel you'd be looking at hotel rooms and not timeshares. The Explorer collection is a way of using your DC points for that type of travel, but can be more costly than booking directly.


If you want to start with points, either buy points on the resale market and rent any additional needed, or perhaps a combo resale week from Marriott and points purchase package, although the former is a cheaper way to enter the system.


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## puckmanfl (Oct 28, 2013)

good morning....

Jimmy... just a few points to go over....

I am not going to advise you on how to spend your $$$, but want you to make an educated choice....

#1  The Marriott system is not a PURE points system...It is apoint system created on top of a mature 25 year old weeks system.  This is crucial to understand as it impacts availabilty .  Most people purchase Timeshares to go to the sweet joints in prime time.  If you want off season getaways, II trades and $$$ work fine.  Prior to 6/20/10 over 2/3 of the weeks were sold with over 80% in the prime places (HHI summer, ski weeks, carribean jan-march, hawaii jan-march and summer).  You may own points, but you have no guarantees as availabilty is dependent on Legacy owners trading inventory.    This si different form DVC where you have an "open slate" at 7 months at your home resort and 11 months at all else...

#2  Make an inventory of where and when you want to go and look at the  points required...It would take at leatst 4000 and often more for many prime time weeks, with an investment of $40K  (at least).  You could pick up a resale HHI Plat AND ski week and have some $$$ left over for that...

#3 If you wantthe flexibilty of points and want to make a sound decision..You might consider a purchase of resale week  from MVCD with matching purchase of points.  With this bundle , they will let you enroll the rersale week.  This will get you down to about $7/pt + ypu will own a deeded week as well... There are numerous threads on this...

good luck.. we are here to help..

good news  so far inventory has been pretty good at hot joints, but I am PP so I have an advantage...


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## GregT (Oct 28, 2013)

JIMMY said:


> I haven’t been active on TUG for quite a few years, but have some questions about the Marriott Destinations program.
> 
> First some background – we’ve owned a 2BR EY at Diamond’s Kaanapali Beach Club (was an original Embassy owner) for the last 15 years. We’ve used our weeks in Hawaii for 9 of those 15 years.
> 
> ...



Jimmy,

Excellent question -- and you're asking it at the right place, good luck with your research and analysis!

No, there is no reason to buy from Marriott, you can buy Trust Points resale and get full usage.  You can buy a base package resale and then rent points from other owners, so best alternative might be to buy the smallest resale package that makes sense, and then rent points.   Another option is to buy a small points package, plus a great trading week while they are still relatively inexpensive, and use them together.

The cautionary comment I would make is that Marriott points (when used by themselves) are a very expensive way to vacation.

One of the appeals of timeshares to many of us (well, to me at least) is that it moderates the cost of the accomodations.   I am accustomed to reservations of 5-7 days in length, usually covering both weekends and weekdays.  Marriott (as have most of the other point systems) premium prices weekends.   This has the benefit of making Sunday - Thursday reservations "cheap" if you can occupy those nights, which you can when are an empty nester and/or have retired.

But Friday-Saturday nights are very very expensive.  As an example, I was just at Marriott Shadow Ridge for a single evening in a 2BR -- and this is off-season and the room was 600 Marriott points.  Renting the points from another owner and using them would cost me $300 - $360 for that single night.

Now.....that's a great property, and convenient for us in SoCal to visit, but that's not what I term an economical night -- at least from a (cheap) timeshare person's perspective.     

So, I would study this system and others before committing to a points only strategy.   Lots to consider here!

Best,

Greg


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## csalter2 (Oct 28, 2013)

*There are advantages to owning both!*

I own both Marriott and Diamond Resorts International (DRI). I own points with DRI and I own a week with Marriott in Hawaii that I can convert to points when I desire for a specific year. That kind of week with Marriott is called a legacy week. 

I find that having the two systems affords me maximum flexibility with my vacations. I sometimes use DRI points to stay in Marriott resorts through Interval International. Marriott and DRI points systems are very similar in their workings.  You have weeks so I am not sure how familiar you are with DRI's points system, but they have lots of the same rules and are able to do many of the same things. 

The quality of the Marriott resorts are higher than DRI resorts. You own at KBC which is one of my favorite DRI resorts, but it would be below any of the Marriott standard timeshares. The advantage that DRI has is the many, many locations throughout the world to use your timeshare.  Marriott only has four in Europe and then a couple in the Caribbean and another in Phuket. DRI can fill in your location gaps where there are no Marriotts.  For example, when I go to Hawaii, I stay at Marriott's Ko Olina on Oahu, but I stay with DRI on the Big Island, Kauai, and Maui. Marriott does not have a timeshare on the Big Island.       

The Marriott DC points as stated by others is quite expensive. If money is not a concern, then understand that you will need about 4,000 points to stay in 2 bedrooms during prime seasons. As maintenance fees can become obtrusive over time, I would suggest looking over the Marriott resorts and seeing how many points will be necessary for the places you will want to visit the most and then just rent points for times you need more.  Also, with you being able to travel off season, you would perhaps need even less points.  

It is also important to know that you can still have access to cruises, hotel stays and other benefits like Marriott's and DRI's through Interval International. I would check out all of these options before embarking on paying lots of money to buy more points.  You may find that keeping what you have may be a lot less expensive and you can get the same benefits. 

If you do decide to buy the points, definitely buy them resale. If you pay all of the Marriott costs that goes with them, they should be unrestricted. 

With all of this being said, my words of wisdom for you would be for you to find a nice Marriott property that you might not mind owning and buy that property resale. You would be a very, very happy camper.


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## Fasttr (Oct 28, 2013)

JIMMY... In an attempt to keep my comments as "on point" as possible, I figured I would quote one of your comments, then give my views on that topic. 



> Over the years, though, we’ve come to want more flexibility than a pure weeks program – the ability to do less than 7 night stays (which we did a lot of prior to timesharing) and the ability to use hotels on future trips to places like Europe where we may want to stay just a couple or three days in several different locations.


If traveling in less than 7 day increments at Marriott timeshare resorts is what you are looking for, the Marriott points system seems to me more apt at filling your vacation needs than a pure weeks program.  I see it as a great option for you and your family...both now...and as it shrinks in a few years.  That said, most feel that the point conversion from DC points to MR points (1 DC point = 32 MR points) is not the best use of your DC points, so I would not get too hung up on using your DC points to stay at normal Marriotts on a consistent basis...its just not a cost effective way to use your points.  



> So the Marriott Destination program is appealing because we love their resort options and because of the extensive hotel network.


I agree....great resorts at great locations....with hopefully more to come at some point down the road.  Again, I would not weight into your decision making, the ability to use your DC points for normal Marriott hotels on a regular basis....the numbers just don't add up financially speaking.  



> We came away feeling that Marriot DC could meet our needs very well as a supplement to (initially) or even an eventual replacement of our Diamond week (if we decide to get rid of it some way in the future).


As discussed above, it sounds to me that you are primarily looking for something now that you can add a few days onto an existing stay in Maui, or hit a few days in SC as it is near to you, or perhaps hit Florida or another MVC location for 4 or 5 days here or there.  I agree, it sounds like it would add flexibility to your current situation, without forcing you to take another full vacation week somewhere if you purchased an additional week resale.  That said, as others have pointed out, all the flexibility is dependent on availability, which I have found to be very good so far, but it is a concern as they sell more and more points.  



> For the next three years, we are still basically tied to school calendars (our youngest is still in high school and oldest is in college), but I think the primary value to us of DC points would be in a few years when we become semi-empty nesters after both kids are in college, grad school, or work, allowing us to travel in other times of the year.


The nice thing about points, is they would allow you to easily change your needs from 2BR now, to 1BR when you are empty nesters, and back to 2BR/3BR when you want to bring your kids and grandkids along some day.  And with your kids likely starting new families not too far down the road, taking a full week somewhere is not always easy for them when they are starting in their careers, but they might be more likely to be able to take a long weekend to join you somewhere and the ability to use a few days here and a few days there is a definite strength of the points program.   As you have pointed out, the big plus with points is the flexibility.  



> Given our location near Charlotte, we would likely use Hilton Head/Myrtle Beach resorts some in spring and fall.


The SC resorts point requirements are pretty fair in the spring and fall, and as many have pointed out in various TUG threads, its a really nice time to be there.  The points system would allow you to grab a few days here or there to get away and refresh, again, without the need of utilizing a full week.

As others have pointed out, the points method can be a bit more costly, but if you like the flexibility the points system provides you and you feel that is the direction you want to go.... I suggest you purchase a small amount of points resale (to get into the game and to be able to book on your own, etc), it can keep the costs down and then rent whatever points above that that you need in any given year.  With the plethora of points available to be rented on vacationpointexchange.com and the ease at which you can rent them, my suggestion would be to purchase a 1500 point package (considered a base interest by Marriott, so you don't want to have less as a pure Trust owner) on the resale market.  You can likely very easily purchase 1500 points for about $5/point (or less) = $7,500.  Then you pay Marriott approx. $2,300 in initiation and education fees ($2K initiation minimum and $300 education) to get you up to $9,800, toss in closing cost and lets call it $10,500 all in.  From there you can just rent what you need over the 1500 points (rental prices are around 10 cents a point over what the MF's would be if you owned the points, so renting is a no brainer).  That 1500 gets you in the game, provides you with a small base to use now with the ability to rent as many as you want each year as your needs evolve.  

Some may say you should purchase 2500 points resale to maximize the Marriott $2K minimum initiation fee (what they charge for you to have full access to your points) as they charge $200/beneficial interest where a BI=250 points with a $2K minimum, but I say why spend the additional $5,000 it would cost you to purchase that extra 1000 points in order to justify not leaving $800 on the table via Marriott junk fees.  I would rather save the upfront costs and just pay Marriott their $2K minimum and move on.  And remember, if you own the points, you HAVE to pay the MF's each and every year, but if you rent any that you need in excess of the 1500 that you purchased, you are only paying a 10 cent premium per point in that one year as a true cost of rental (again, renting is a no brainer once you are already in the game).  

I realize most here look at things from a week owners perspective, but I only own points, so I figured I would give you my perspective as well, hopefully tailored to what I am reading as your perceived needs.

Good luck!!


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## JIMinNC (Oct 28, 2013)

*Thanks!*

Thanks so much for all of the great input. Everyone has offered a lot of great ideas for us to think about over the months ahead. 

I’m intrigued by m61376 and puckmanfl’s suggestion of buying a relatively cheap resale week from Marriott and then, within 12 months, buying a matching amount of DC Trust points. I looked online and saw that a Silver Oceanside Barony Beach Club deeded week can be bought for $4,000. Looking at the points charts, it looks like Silver season equates to 2,050 points in the DC program (correct???). So within twelve months, we would then have to spend another $24,500 for 2,050 points based on current pricing…but, if I understand it correctly, that would then give us 4,100 total points that would have cost us $28,500 ($4,000 + $24,500), or about $6.95 per point. That’s a lot better than the $49,000 the same 4,100 points would cost if all were bought as DC points from Marriott. I am assuming under this scenario we would pay Barony maintenance fees for that Silver week ownership interest, plus the $0.45 per point maintenance fee for the 2,050 Trust points. Is that correct? 

If I understand Fasttr’s suggestion on resale points correctly, it would cost $10.5K for 1,500 points, or about the same $7/pt. as above. Looking at the points chart, the 4,100 points in the example above would likely meet 90% of our needs, so if renting the extra 2600 points only costs 10 cents per point more than the maintenance fee ($260/per year), this would seem to be a much cheaper option, as long as renting points continues to be viable. Have I interpreted this right? 

The combo week/points purchase example, however, would also give us a deeded week in Hilton Head. Owning another deeded week is not our top priority, and we would likely often use it as points, but a HHI Silver week would be usable over both Thanksgiving and Christmas – something that my wife has often mused would be great to do from time to time – so would there be any benefits to owning that deeded week in addition to points, versus just dealing exclusively in points? Are there any other advantages to the combo approach versus Fasttr’s approach?  

What are the best sources to find resale points? I’m not sure how comfortable we would be buying something of that $$ amount over EBay, but what are the best, most reliable sources for resale Destination Club points?

Finally, is there somewhere I can get some guidance on what the Explorer Collection options require? I know folks say they aren’t the best value per dollar (point), but it would be helpful to see the relative points requirements.

Thanks again for all of your suggestions.


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## cp73 (Oct 29, 2013)

When I look at this I keep coming back to the points are an expensive way to go regardless of how your trying to dilute your cost here JIMMY. Rather than add the points (I like the $4000 week) why not just use that cash the pay for what/where you want to go? That will give you the most flexibility….How many years is it going to take you to recoup your $24,500? My guess is never...


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## Fasttr (Oct 29, 2013)

JIMMY said:


> I looked online and saw that a Silver Oceanside Barony Beach Club deeded week can be bought for $4,000. Looking at the points charts, it looks like Silver season equates to 2,050 points in the DC program (correct???).



You can't really look in the points chart to determine how many points MVC will assigned to a week if it were enrolled in the program.  There has been much discussion on the Marriott TUG board about the "skim", which is the differential between the number of points required to book a week per the points chart, and what MVC allots to that exact same week when they allow you to enroll your week in the points program.  I have seen posts where the skim on fixed weeks was in the low-teen percent and on averaged seasonal weeks, in the high single digits percent (because of the averaging).  So using your Barony week as an example, you are likely to get "skimmed" by around 150 points (give or take) and find that week only allots you around 1900 points to use in the DC.    

Likely the largest beef with most TUGgers regarding the rollout of the DC points program, was that they were alloted fewer points for thier week than the program required for them to turn around and book their exact same week in the program.    

Just wanted to make sure you were aware of that.

Other than that, I believe your math is pretty sound in your post # 7.


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## Fasttr (Oct 29, 2013)

JIMMY said:


> Finally, is there somewhere I can get some guidance on what the Explorer Collection options require? I know folks say they aren’t the best value per dollar (point), but it would be helpful to see the relative points requirements.



I have attached a listing of the current Explorer Collection general selection areas.  Within each of these general areas, there are specific trips, etc to choose from.  As an example, under Adventure Travel, subsection Expedition Cruises, there are specific boat trips for Amazon River Expedition, Realm of the Polar Bear, Galápagos Adventure and Antarctica Classic.

If you want to know the points requirement for a couple of the various options listed on the PDF, I would be more than happy to look them up and let you know.

Keep in mind, some of the options are only available to Premier  and Premier Plus level owners.  Premier starts at 6500 points.


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## JIMinNC (Oct 29, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> I have attached a listing of the current Explorer Collection general selection areas.
> 
> If you want to know the points requirement for a couple of the various options listed on the PDF, I would be more than happy to look them up and let you know.



The options are so extensive, I guess I'm trying to just get a sense of the range of what these cruises and packages cost in terms of points to assess whether the value is good or poor. The Marriott Points Charts from the TUG FAQ give me what I need on that part of the program, but I can't get a sense of how many points are needed for this Explorer stuff. I'm sure it's quite a large range from item to item, but if there is some way to just give me a few typical examples - maybe a cruise, maybe a guided tour or two, and some examples of the hotel bookings available through Explorer. Just enough to give me a general flavor of the range of point requirements.


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## JIMinNC (Oct 29, 2013)

cp73 said:


> When I look at this I keep coming back to the points are an expensive way to go regardless of how your trying to dilute your cost here JIMMY. Rather than add the points (I like the $4000 week) why not just use that cash the pay for what/where you want to go? That will give you the most flexibility….How many years is it going to take you to recoup your $24,500? My guess is never...



We're looking at points for flexibility. We already have a week-based property and find the 7 day stay requirement to limit it's utility for us. So we are not really interested in more weeks-based product for weeks-only use, regardless of cost. We want to be able to vary our stay length/accommodations as our needs and situation changes. Sometimes we'll stay a week - other times less. Points DO seem to meet our needs in that regard.

But you are correct, the $24K or $10K or whatever upfront cost is the hurdle we're trying to get past. Booking four or five nights in a MVC-type accommodation through the channels we would typically use - Orbitz, Hotels.com, Marriott.com, Expedia, etc. - can easily cost $400 - $500 per night (or more). If ownership can't allow us to drive down that cost when all costs are considered, it's not a smart deal, and we either have to be willing to book at market rates or not go.


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## Fasttr (Oct 29, 2013)

JIMMY said:


> The options are so extensive, I guess I'm trying to just get a sense of the range of what these cruises and packages cost in terms of points to assess whether the value is good or poor. The Marriott Points Charts from the TUG FAQ give me what I need on that part of the program, but I can't get a sense of how many points are needed for this Explorer stuff. I'm sure it's quite a large range from item to item, but if there is some way to just give me a few typical examples - maybe a cruise, maybe a guided tour or two, and some examples of the hotel bookings available through Explorer. Just enough to give me a general flavor of the range of point requirements.



Some examples.....

7 Night Southern Caribbean Cruise - from 3,450 points for an ocean view room (they go up from there for larger rooms)

Discover Ireland Tour - 9 Nights and 10 meals, starting At 7,500 Vacation Club Points (I believe that is for a couple, but not exactly sure....it didn't jump out at me)

10-Day Galápagos Adventure Package - from 25,000 points per couple.

7-Day Thailand Sailing Package - 9,000 points for a couple.

Colorado River Rafting Day Trip - 250 points per person

New York Marriott Marquis hotel - 1,250 - 2,250 points per night depending on time of year.

San Diego Marriott Hotel & Marina or Coronado Island Marriott Resort and Spa - 975 - 1,275 points per night depending on time of year. 

Courtyard by Marriott Rome Central Park or Boscolo Palace Roma, Autograph Collection®  - 950 - 1,400 points per night depending on time of year.

Boscolo Venezia, Autograph Collection® in Venice Italy - 700 - 1,250 points per night.


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## cp73 (Oct 29, 2013)

So you multiple the examples above x $.45 - $.55 per point based upon whether they are your purchased points or rented points to get an idea of what they are charging for those type of items before you amortize your initial purchase price paid. To me it looks like your paying over the market rate for those explorer items. What do others see?


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## dioxide45 (Oct 29, 2013)

Do we know if resale points can even access Explorer Collection? Has anyone tested that yet? It seems that the exchange documents have some limitations about access to Special Benefits for resale points.

Can resale DC points be traded for Marriott Reward points?


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## Fasttr (Oct 29, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> Do we know if resale points can even access Explorer Collection? Has anyone tested that yet? It seems that the exchange documents have some limitations about access to Special Benefits for resale points.
> 
> Can resale DC points be traded for Marriott Reward points?



Back when I was contemplating purchasing additional points via the resale market (before I came to the revelation that renting whatever additional points I need in any given year, instead of purchasing more, made a hell of a lot more sense), I had received written confirmation from two separate Managers in the MVC Customer Care department that as long as you pay the Marriott junk fees, you would have full unfettered access just as if they were purchased from Marriott directly.

Here was a quote about the restrictions on the points if you don't pay the fees.



> The Initiation Fee is not required, but if it is not paid the points will be restricted to trust inventory only 60 days prior to the arrival date and the points will not have access to the Marriott Collection, Explorer Collection and World Traveler Collection.


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## m61376 (Oct 30, 2013)

Just to add to the mix- if you are a Marriott owner and get a Marriott Visa, you can frequently get a 35% discount (40 and 45 for Premiere and Premiere Plus owners, but that likely would not pertain to you) off the rack rate. Since you mention using Orbitz, etc., I thought that info. might be of interest to you. You don't have to be an enrolled owner for the 35% discount.

Also- a few Tuggers have recently purchased points on the resale market for five and change per point with the Marriott initiation fees added in- so $7 per point is a high estimate there. However, if you are uncomfortable buying on the resale market, then the week/point combo can yield a better deal. Just be aware that the MF's are the same regardless of season, so make sure that your MF/point cost isn't too high.

Lots of different options; only you can decide what will work best for your family, but feel free to ask questions and get opinions here; hopefully varying perspectives will help you in your decision.


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## Fasttr (Oct 30, 2013)

m61376 said:


> Also- a few Tuggers have recently purchased points on the resale market for five and change per point with the Marriott initiation fees added in- so $7 per point is a high estimate there.



I believe the TUGgers you refer to purchased a package north of 3000 points.  The last I recall was 3500 points at just over $4/pt plus the Marriott fees which netted out at around $5/pt all in.  Because you are buying a lot more points, the cost per point gets reduced (because you are amortizing the Marriot Junk fees over many more points), but in my opinion, the game is not trying to get your cost per point as low as possible, but to minimize your total upfront costs to get into the game.  And if the game the OP wants into is the points game, we all seem to agree points are expensive, so a buy less, rent more approach seems like sound advice.  

As I suggested in my initial post above, I would rather pay closer to $7/pt and only have $10.5K in the game (and rent the rest which is basically a wash vs MF's), than spend $17.5K to get a 3500 point package *IF* my only reason for doing so was to drive my per point price down to $5.  Again, that's just my opinion, but it seems to make financial sense... at least to me.


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## jancurious (Oct 30, 2013)

Do you definitely have to buy your resale week from Marriott to have them enroll it when buying into the points program now?  

We went to a presentation yesterday at Kauai Lagoons and the salesperson seemed to indicate that Marriott would enroll any  resale week as long as you purchased the corresponding number of points from them.  However, he was a new salesperson so he might not know the facts.

Just curious but if true, could save the poster money as that week would be cheaper on the open resale market.

Jan


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## Quadmaniac (Oct 30, 2013)

jancurious said:


> Do you definitely have to buy your resale week from Marriott to have them enroll it when buying into the points program now?
> 
> We went to a presentation yesterday at Kauai Lagoons and the salesperson seemed to indicate that Marriott would enroll any  resale week as long as you purchased the corresponding number of points from them.  However, he was a new salesperson so he might not know the facts.
> 
> ...



Yep its true. The OP would be way better off buying a resale week for a fraction of what Marriott's resale department sells it for and even if they did not stay the whole week, would most probably be still cheaper than buying points.


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## Fasttr (Oct 30, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> Yep its true. The OP would be way better off buying a resale week for a fraction of what Marriott's resale department sells it for and even if they did not stay the whole week, would most probably be still cheaper than buying points.



I am confused as to how your answer correlates to jancurious's question.


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## Quadmaniac (Oct 30, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> I am confused as to how your answer correlates to jancurious's question.



Ok, yes it has been said by a number of people that they were offered the enrollment of their existing weeks if they buy the corresponding number of points. The other option is to buy resale from Marriott and it would qualify to be enrolled. 

Better ?


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## dualrated2 (Oct 30, 2013)

jancurious said:


> Do you definitely have to buy your resale week from Marriott to have them enroll it when buying into the points program now?
> 
> We went to a presentation yesterday at Kauai Lagoons and the salesperson seemed to indicate that Marriott would enroll any  resale week as long as you purchased the corresponding number of points from them.  However, he was a new salesperson so he might not know the facts.
> 
> ...



The offer to enroll external weeks with a corresponding points purchase seems to come up often at Kauai Lagoons presentations. Not sure why you don't hear of it much from other locations.


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## Fasttr (Oct 30, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> Yep its true. The OP would be way better off buying a resale week for a fraction of what Marriott's resale department sells it for and even if they did not stay the whole week, *would most probably be still cheaper than buying points*.





Quadmaniac said:


> Ok, yes it has been said by a number of people that they were offered the enrollment of their existing weeks if they buy the corresponding number of points. The other option is to buy resale from Marriott and it would qualify to be enrolled.
> 
> Better ?



It was the bolded portion of your first post that I was confused about for in either of those scinarios (assuming you are correct that a recently purchased resale week can be enrolled if points were purchased from Marriott), you would have to buy points from Marriott at retail pricing (less perhaps a small discount of some sort) in order to enroll your week....correct?


----------



## Quadmaniac (Oct 30, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> It was the bolded portion of your first post that I was confused about for in either of those scinarios (assuming you are correct that a recently purchased resale week can be enrolled if points were purchased from Marriott), you would have to buy points from Marriott at retail pricing (less perhaps a small discount of some sort) in order to enroll your week....correct?



I believe so.

What I meant by the bolded comment is looking at the OP's goal of adding a couple of days in Hawaii : Mid-season MMO Thur/Fri/Sat 1 br OV would be 575/800/800 = 2175 @$0.43 MF = $935.25. If the OP owned MMO 2br OV, MF is about $1950, lock it off and use one week, the cost would be $975. The cost to own 2175 points would be about $22K vs resale 2 br OV MMO is about $14K. 

The smart money would be to buy a cheap trader and trade into MMO for probably $700/week.


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 30, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> I believe so.
> 
> What I meant by the bolded comment is looking at the OP's goal of adding a couple of days in Hawaii : Mid-season MMO Thur/Fri/Sat 1 br OV would be 575/800/800 = 2175 @$0.43 MF = $935.25. If the OP owned MMO 2br OV, MF is about $1950, lock it off and use one week, the cost would be $975. The cost to own 2175 points would be about $22K vs resale 2 br OV MMO is about $14K.
> 
> The smart money would be to buy a cheap trader and trade into MMO for probably $700/week.



Now I see where you were going with it.  Just wanted to make sure I was not missing something in my understanding.  Thanks for the additional clarification.


----------



## dioxide45 (Oct 30, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> I believe the TUGgers you refer to purchased a package north of 3000 points.  The last I recall was 3500 points at just over $4/pt plus the Marriott fees which netted out at around $5/pt all in.  Because you are buying a lot more points, the cost per point gets reduced (because you are amortizing the Marriot Junk fees over many more points), but in my opinion, the game is not trying to get your cost per point as low as possible, but to minimize your total upfront costs to get into the game.  And if the game the OP wants into is the points game, we all seem to agree points are expensive, so a buy less, rent more approach seems like sound advice.
> 
> As I suggested in my initial post above, I would rather pay closer to $7/pt and only have $10.5K in the game (and rent the rest which is basically a wash vs MF's), than spend $17.5K to get a 3500 point package *IF* my only reason for doing so was to drive my per point price down to $5.  Again, that's just my opinion, but it seems to make financial sense... at least to me.



I still think the best buy-in amount would be 2,500 points. Only because you are then maximizing the junk fees. I would also advise against a 1,000 point package by anyone that is not already an owner. Base Interest seems to be 1,500 points, if you own less than that it seems that MVCI is restricting the use of those points.


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 30, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> I still think the best buy-in amount would be 2,500 points. Only because you are then maximizing the junk fees. I would also advise against a 1,000 point package by anyone that is not already an owner. Base Interest seems to be 1,500 points, if you own less than that it seems that MVCI is restricting the use of those points.



I have seen the 2500 point argument before, but I still can't see paying the $5/pt (using that as a reasonable resale price example) for the additional 1000 points over the 1500 Base Interest and in essence spending an extra $5,000 upfront, merely to maximize the Marriott fee minimums.  Assuming point rental availability remains plentiful, I can rent those extra 1000 points for basically what the MF's would be if I owned them (ok... it's about $100 more, but lets call it a wash), so why would I pop for the extra $5K in upfront costs.  The fact that you maximize the Marriott fees or not is purely emotional in my opinion.  

Look at it this way.  If I truly feel I will be using 4000 points a year (a reasonable annual usage) and I buy the 1500 point base package that I outlined in my original post in this thread, I am paying $10.5K in upfront costs.  In every year I rent the additional 2500 points I need (and I only have to do it if I need them, otherwise its more savings as I don't need to pay the MF's), I am only paying a $250 annual premium over the MF's I would have to pay if I owned them all.  So in essence, I have access to 4000 points that I paid only $10.5K for, and that gets me to an effective price per point of only $2.63 plus the additional $250 annually.  If I had paid another $5K upfront, my effective cost per point is $3.87 to effectively access 4000 points.  Does this only make sense to me?

I still say why buy more than the base amount of 1500 points in the current environment where rental points are more than plentiful.  

If down the road, point rentals become less abundant, I am sure I can always buy more points on the resale market then....and likely at a better price than today.


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## jancurious (Oct 30, 2013)

dualrated2 said:


> The offer to enroll external weeks with a corresponding points purchase seems to come up often at Kauai Lagoons presentations. Not sure why you don't hear of it much from other locations.



Has anyone on tugs actually enrolled a resale week (not bought through Marriott) by buying the corresponding number of points from Marriott?

Jan


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## Fasttr (Oct 30, 2013)

jancurious said:


> Has anyone on tugs actually enrolled a resale week (not bought through Marriott) by buying the corresponding number of points from Marriott?
> 
> Jan



Are you asking about ANY resale purchase week....or a post 6/20/10 resale week.  That clarification makes a difference as I believe I have seen posts about folks who purchased DC points and Marriott waived the enrollment fees on their pre 6/20/10 week.  Just want to make sure we understand your exact question.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 30, 2013)

jancurious said:


> Has anyone on tugs actually enrolled a resale week (not bought through Marriott) by buying the corresponding number of points from Marriott?
> 
> Jan



I am not aware of anyone.


----------



## jancurious (Oct 30, 2013)

No I was asking post 6/10 weeks.  

That's interesting.  So maybe it's our newbie agent that is at Kauai Lagoons that is giving out some false info (inadvertently).  

Jan


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## Fasttr (Oct 30, 2013)

jancurious said:


> No I was asking post 6/10 weeks.
> 
> That's interesting.  So maybe it's our newbie agent that is at Kauai Lagoons that is giving out some false info (inadvertently).
> 
> Jan



I agree with dioxide45, and to go further, I was always under the impression that it was not possible.  In fact, it seems like I have seen posts of TUGgers asking Marriott if they would enroll their post 6/10 weeks if they purchase Trust points and were told it was not possible.


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## puckmanfl (Oct 30, 2013)

good evening...

I know of 2 purchasers that have purchase the "bundle" plan.  A post 6/20/10 resale week thru MVCD resale + corresponding equal package of Trust points.  One is one of my partners, the second a TUGGER that PMed me a while ago!!!  Both seem happy!!!  I can't get my partner to stop talking about Marriott time shares.  He uses is Barony platinum week in June and uses the 5000 Trust points nicely as well/..

In the interest of Full disclosure, I snagged some nice referral bennies!!!


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## Quadmaniac (Oct 30, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> I agree with dioxide45, and to go further, I was always under the impression that it was not possible.  In fact, it seems like I have seen posts of TUGgers asking Marriott if they would enroll their post 6/10 weeks if they purchase Trust points and were told it was not possible.



I thought they were offering that at some point early on ???


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## Fasttr (Oct 30, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> good evening...
> 
> I know of 2 purchasers that have purchase the "bundle" plan.  A post 6/20/10 resale week thru MVCD resale + corresponding equal package of Trust points.  One is one of my partners, the second a TUGGER that PMed me a while ago!!!  Both seem happy!!!  I can't get my partner to stop talking about Marriott time shares.  He uses is Barony platinum week in June and uses the 5000 Trust points nicely as well/..
> 
> In the interest of Full disclosure, I snagged some nice referral bennies!!!



I think the question is a post 6/20/10 week that was resale NOT through MVCD + points... is that allowed is the question.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 30, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> I thought they were offering that at some point early on ???



There was a glitch early on that allowed a number of people to enroll post 6/20/10 weeks. Though that loophole was closed.


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## puckmanfl (Oct 30, 2013)

good evening...

oops..to the penalty box a.k.a "sinbin" for me...  misread the initial query... 2 minutes for "TUGgging"...better than "Five for Fightning"....

on another note..what does moderrator Sue do tonight... does she watchthe Marriott board?  Watch the Sox in the series or the B's v. Penguins.  If she gets really bored she can watch the Celtics v. Raptors!!! Such choices


----------



## dioxide45 (Oct 30, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> good evening...
> 
> oops..to the penalty box a.k.a "sinbin" for me...  misread the initial query... 2 minutes for "TUGgging"...better than "Five for Fightning"....
> 
> on another note..what does moderrator Sue do tonight... does she watchthe Marriott board?  Watch the Sox in the series or the B's v. Penguins.  If she gets really bored she can watch the Celtics v. Raptors!!! Such choices



I am willing to put money on she will be watching the World Series.


----------



## NYFLTRAVELER (Oct 30, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> I believe the TUGgers you refer to purchased a package north of 3000 points.  The last I recall was 3500 points at just over $4/pt plus the Marriott fees which netted out at around $5/pt all in.  Because you are buying a lot more points, the cost per point gets reduced (because you are amortizing the Marriot Junk fees over many more points), but in my opinion, the game is not trying to get your cost per point as low as possible, but to minimize your total upfront costs to get into the game.  And if the game the OP wants into is the points game, we all seem to agree points are expensive, so a buy less, rent more approach seems like sound advice.
> 
> As I suggested in my initial post above, I would rather pay closer to $7/pt and only have $10.5K in the game (and rent the rest which is basically a wash vs MF's), than spend $17.5K to get a 3500 point package *IF* my only reason for doing so was to drive my per point price down to $5.  Again, that's just my opinion, but it seems to make financial sense... at least to me.



Yes, I bought 3500 resale points for $4.285 per point plus Marriott fees of $250 per BI.


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## JIMinNC (Oct 30, 2013)

m61376 said:


> Just be aware that the MF's are the same regardless of season, so make sure that your MF/point cost isn't too high.



I thought about that. According to the 2013 maintenance fee thread, the Barony Silver example I used in my post #7 above has a maintenance fee of $1100, so if Fasttr's estimate of 1900 DC points for that week is accurate, that would yield a fee cost/point of $0.58. With an increased fee for 2014, that means the cost will probably be about $0.60/point. So a Gold week would yield a lower fee cost/point but at a much higher purchase cost and a higher cost for matching points. But that option would also yield more total points.

Looks like a need to build a spreadsheet if I pursue an option like this at some point.

This thread has been very helpful. While I still think DC points fit our needs and lifestyle for shorter stays mixed with some weeks-based travel, the economic case is another matter. The points acquisition cost does seem high and I'm not yet convinced they truly make economic sense versus renting accommodations. Buying a minimal allotment resale and then renting what I need seems to be the most cost effective, but it looks like even that might not save that much versus renting.

I at least think I understand the options better now.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 31, 2013)

JIMMY said:


> I thought about that. According to the 2013 maintenance fee thread, the Barony Silver example I used in my post #7 above has a maintenance fee of $1100, so if Fasttr's estimate of 1900 DC points for that week is accurate, that would yield a fee cost/point of $0.58. With an increased fee for 2014, that means the cost will probably be about $0.60/point. So a Gold week would yield a lower fee cost/point but at a much higher purchase cost and a higher cost for matching points. But that option would also yield more total points.
> 
> Looks like a need to build a spreadsheet if I pursue an option like this at some point.
> 
> ...



This document may be helpful. It has the DC point allotments and MFs for many of the resorts.


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## JIMinNC (Oct 31, 2013)

Thanks!

One last question I mentioned above hasn't really been addressed yet.

I've seen points for sale listings on redweek.com, and there are a couple in the TUG listings, but other than those, what are the best places to look for resale DC points? I need to start perusing them to better understand the market.

Thanks again.


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## Fasttr (Oct 31, 2013)

JIMMY said:


> Thanks!
> 
> One last question I mentioned above hasn't really been addressed yet.
> 
> ...



I would start here...  http://www.licensedtimeshareresalebrokers.org/

I have seen good reviews about Jay Kozlowski (and his wife Judi I believe) at www.timeshareprofessionals.com but if you look through the directory for people who specialize in Marriott, you should find several.

Also, here is a TUG post from yesterday with some reputable brokers listed.  http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201196&highlight=Kozlowski


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## GregT (Oct 31, 2013)

Jay Kozlowski was the broker for my Trust Points and did a good job.

One point on the benefit of buying a larger points package (3,500) points.  I definitely concede the point that Fasttr is making to buy in as cheaply as possible and then rent what is needed.  

Buying the larger package provides some level of protections against the scenario where Marriott changes the rules around transferring points.

Currently you can transfer any number of points, in an unlimited amount of transactions.

Other systems have reduced the transfer ability to either a single transfer each year, either in or out (Disney) or have eliminated the ability to transfer points completely (Wyndham).

I believe at some point Marriott will change the rules to restrict the transfer of points.    So....I think we should just buy the number of points that make sense for our personal needs.

I am buying 3,500 points, recognizing the value of maximizing the junk fees, but much more because it was a size package that meets my usage strategy, without depending on a rental strategy.

As an update for me, my purchase has been sent to the country to record the deed, and will then be sent to Marriott to transfer the ownership.

Best,

Greg


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## SMHarman (Oct 31, 2013)

GregT said:


> Jay Kozlowski was the broker for my Trust Points and did a good job.
> 
> I am buying 3,500 points, recognizing the value of maximizing the junk fees, but much more because it was a size package that meets my usage strategy, without depending on a rental strategy.
> 
> Greg


I'd also add 
Samuel Rodriguez
Licensed Real Estate Agent
Selling Timeshares Inc.
Hilton and Marriott Resorts Specialist
Office- (917)463-0015 <tel:%28917%29463-0015>
Fax- (212)898-1344 <tel:%28212%29898-1344>
www.sellingtimeshares.net

I also think your point about buying for the use you need and not relying on rental (in or out) is the use case you should shop for.

There is a debate I weighed into in the Disney sub forum with someone suggesting buying double the points you need and renting alternate years to cover the MF for both years.

On paper, with the right assumptions for MF increase and foregone return on the capital invested it works but if you can't rent the excess points or the bull market continues or MF increase is way above inflation then the math goes out the window.


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## Fasttr (Oct 31, 2013)

GregT said:


> Buying the larger package provides some level of protections against the scenario where Marriott changes the rules around transferring points....
> 
> I believe at some point Marriott will change the rules to restrict the transfer of points.    So....I think we should just buy the number of points that make sense for our personal needs.



If I understand your argument correctly, you are saying if you only purchased 1500 points (and plan to rent the rest) and Marriott does change the rules and disallows transfers altogether, and it forced you to buy another package on the resale market, you are stuck with another $2K in Marriott junk fees to contend with.  I get that, but IMO, its worth a $2K gamble that Marriott will always allow at least one transfer a year, which is likely all you really need in most instances.

That said, a limit of one tranfer a year might tighten up the rental market a bit, and perhaps drive rental prices up, as such a limit would certainly take a bite out of the point supply from the super-users out there with 100,000+ points a year they are trying to rent.


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## GregT (Oct 31, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> If I understand your argument correctly, you are saying if you only purchased 1500 points (and plan to rent the rest) and Marriott does change the rules and disallows transfers altogether, and it forced you to buy another package on the resale market, you are stuck with another $2K in Marriott junk fees to contend with.  I get that, but IMO, its worth a $2K gamble that Marriott will always allow at least one transfer a year, which is likely all you really need in most instances.
> 
> That said, a limit of one tranfer a year might tighten up the rental market a bit, and perhaps drive rental prices up, as such a limit would certainly take a bite out of the point supply from the super-users out there with 100,000+ points a year they are trying to rent.



You have the correct counterpoint -- if the rules change you can just go buy more points.  It's even conceivable that you don't have to pay the junk fees a second time, not clear from the Program Documents.

I think it will take years before Marriott bothers to restrict the transfer rules anyway, so I do believe there is validity to Fasttr's argument.  

For clarity, if I were buying Marriott today -- with no other timeshares to influence my thinking -- I would buy the smallest package possible and then rent what is needed.  (But I would also look hard at other point systems -- like HGVC and Starwood....)

Best,

Greg


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## jancurious (Oct 31, 2013)

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> Yes, I bought 3500 resale points for $4.285 per point plus Marriott fees of $250 per BI.



OK....after just having been to a sales presentation (and not believing their hype between legacy & trust points) I have to ask......will your resale points be considered legacy points or trust points by Marriott?

Jan


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## Fasttr (Oct 31, 2013)

jancurious said:


> OK....after just having been to a sales presentation (and not believing their hype between legacy & trust points) I have to ask......will your resale points be considered legacy points or trust points by Marriott?
> 
> Jan



Trust points.  You can't purchase Legacy points...they are only begotten by enrolling a week.


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## m61376 (Oct 31, 2013)

And to clarify the question posed several posts up but not really answered- as far as been posted here, Marriott will not enroll a post 6/20/10 week, even with the direct purchase of an equal number of points package, unless the week is purchased through Marriott resales. I believe one has 12 months after the purchase of a qualifying resale week to purchase the equivalent number of points in order to enroll the Marriott purchased resale week. 

With the exception of a few that caught a glitch early on, Marriott has refused to enroll any external resales purchased after their cut-off deadline. I believe that cut-off was sometime in 2012 for European owners. There were posts from a few Tuggers who offered to buy points if Marriott would enroll their post 6/20/10 external purchases but were turned down.


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## Fasttr (Oct 31, 2013)

m61376 said:


> And to clarify the question posed several posts up but not really answered- as far as been posted here, Marriott will not enroll a post 6/20/10 week, even *without* the direct purchase of an equal number of points package, unless the week is purchased through Marriott resales. I believe one has 12 months after the purchase of a qualifying resale week to purchase the equivalent number of points in order to enroll the Marriott purchased resale week.
> 
> With the exception of a few that caught a glitch early on, Marriott has refused to enroll any external resales purchased after their cut-off deadline. I believe that cut-off was sometime in 2012 for European owners. There were posts from a few Tuggers who offered to buy points if Marriott would enroll their post 6/20/10 external purchases but were turned down.



I think you meant "with" instead of "without" as bolded above....correct?


----------



## m61376 (Oct 31, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> I think you meant "with" instead of "without" as bolded above....correct?



oops  Guess I should reread before posting


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## Fasttr (Oct 31, 2013)

m61376 said:


> oops  Guess I should reread before posting



No sweat.  Thanks for posting the additional clarification as I was pretty sure it was not possible based on other posts I had seen, but was not willing to bet my life on it as you never know when MVC is going to throw us a curve ball.


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## NYFLTRAVELER (Oct 31, 2013)

jancurious said:


> OK....after just having been to a sales presentation (and not believing their hype between legacy & trust points) I have to ask......will your resale points be considered legacy points or trust points by Marriott?
> 
> Jan



Trust points.


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## puckmanfl (Oct 31, 2013)

good evening...

If you purchase the "bundle" plan...  The points you directly purchase are "Trust Points", the points that you get from your resale week purchased thru MVCD are Legacy Points.  As the resale week is enrolled....


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## SunandFun83 (Oct 31, 2013)

*The points program is not nearly as good as buying weeks*

so many posts about buying a week resale and then buying points.  I did a serious review of the points and determined you can get way more value out of weeks.  Don't tell me about "Flexibility" because most of the mature properties have extremely limited availability of reservations with points.  If the trust does not own enough weeks then you ar enot going to find points reservations.  I made this comparison of weeks to a "Buy Points" presentation at Oceana Palms:


I think the Points Program demonstrates how much more valuable your weeks are. I took the tour at Oceana Palms and the pitch was to get 5,000 more points for the Premier Plus level, thirteen month points reservations, Ritz Carlton, Ya Da Ya Da Ya Da.... The Oceana Palms Ocean View Platinum is 4,775 points.

I took the $45,000 for the points recommendation and I bought

Canyon Villas Platinum - $7,300
Canyon Villas EOY Platinum - $3,700
Grande Ocean Gold Ocean Front( two weeks) - $18,800 total
1,000 Points including costs - $6,240
Hyatt Week 7 - Diamond Coconut Plantation $9,000

Total spent $45,040 and I get 4 1/2 weeks and points to pay Marriott skim or for extra nights to turn a week into 8 nights.

Now I am the one with flexibility.  I rent what I do not want and I have lots of weeks to chose from.  I did an exchange of Canyon Villas 1BR into Oceana Palms (oh, you always get a two br)   I rented Apr 4-11 school break week for $2,200 and can select the week I want to stay in from TUG or Redweek just 90 days ahead instead of thirteen months.


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## Fasttr (Oct 31, 2013)

SunandFun83 said:


> so many posts about buying a week resale and then buying points.  I did a serious review of the points and determined you can get way more value out of weeks.  Don't tell me about "Flexibility" because most of the mature properties have extremely limited availability of reservations with points.  If the trust does not own enough weeks then you ar enot going to find points reservations.  I made this comparison of weeks to a "Buy Points" presentation at Oceana Palms:
> 
> 
> I think the Points Program demonstrates how much more valuable your weeks are. I took the tour at Oceana Palms and the pitch was to get 5,000 more points for the Premier Plus level, thirteen month points reservations, Ritz Carlton, Ya Da Ya Da Ya Da.... The Oceana Palms Ocean View Platinum is 4,775 points.
> ...



I'll take the contra approach to that and say perhaps if done right, points are way cheaper.  Using the numbers in my post earlier in this thread, I pay $10.5K for 1500 resale points (a base interest) and then I just rent the points to get at all the weeks you listed as purchasing above.  My rental costs are $0.55/point (likely a bit higher than your MF's costs, but I am guessing not appreciably more, so our ongoing annual costs are likely close, and I only have to pay mine if I am going to use all those weeks), so I have access to everything you have and I spent $34.5K less upfront.  Unless you are correct and availability is really tight and I would never get into the weeks during the seasons you purchased, my way is a lot cheaper.  Makes you ponder doesn't it.


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## jancurious (Nov 1, 2013)

SunandFun83 said:


> Don't tell me about "Flexibility" because most of the mature properties have extremely limited availability of reservations with points.  If the trust does not own enough weeks then you ar enot going to find points reservations.
> 
> From my experience with points for the last three and half years, I would disagree with you about this comment.  Marriott came up with all of my requests every time even for one night stays. (and I only have legacy points!)  I might have been on a wait list for awhile, but they always came through.  So at least for now......I would still say the points program gives you a great deal of flexibility.
> 
> Jan


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## Fasttr (Nov 1, 2013)

SunandFun83 said:


> Don't tell me about "Flexibility" because most of the mature properties have extremely limited availability of reservations with points.  If the trust does not own enough weeks then you ar enot going to find points reservations.





jancurious said:


> From my experience with points for the last three and half years, I would disagree with you about this comment.  Marriott came up with all of my requests every time even for one night stays. (and I only have legacy points!)  I might have been on a wait list for awhile, but they always came through.  So at least for now......I would still say the points program gives you a great deal of flexibility.



Gotta agree with *jancurious* on this one.  It has been our exprience that availability with points has been excellent also.  I believe *SunandFun83* is forgetting about Legacy owners converting thier weeks to points, which opens up those mature properties for points owners.


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## puckmanfl (Nov 1, 2013)

good morning....

Here are some examples of the "limited inventory" in those mature 'sold out resorts....

Mountainside/Summit  Late feb 2014
Kauai Lagoons 6/2014
Maui Ocean  6/2014
Lakeshore  3/2014 springbreak week
RC vail 2/2013
Koolina 12/2013
Crystal Shores 7/2103
HHI summer Grand Ocean  7/2013 ,6/2014
HHI Surf Watch 3 bedroom 6/2012
Kauai Lagoons 6/2011  3 bedroom...
a few others that I can't remember....

flexibilty comes in with the less than 7 day stays...the ability to cancel without penalty


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## Fasttr (Nov 1, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning....
> 
> Here are some examples of the "limited inventory" in those mature 'sold out resorts....
> 
> ...



Hey Puck....are you saying you snagged all of these with points?  Just trying to figure out what side of the argument you were justifying.


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## GregT (Nov 1, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> Hey Puck....are you saying you snagged all of these with points?  Just trying to figure out what side of the argument you were justifying.



Yes, Puck is definitely a believer in points, and I think these are his actual stays (some are still to come).

He has lots of points to work with (Premier Plus) and has spent a lot of time figuring out the system.  He is the king of Sunday-Thursday stays and isn't afraid to pay the premium weekends for an important stay.   He may never use his legacy week in a traditional manner again...

It's good stuff....

Best,

Greg


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## kjd (Nov 1, 2013)

It would seem to me that with the resale prices at all time lows and Marriott not doing much ROFR, purchasing shoulder season resale weeks would give an owner a lot of flexibility.  In this market it might be the best way to go for those who can do it.

The fact that an owner cannot enroll a post 6/20/10 week has driven resale prices further below normal resale prices.  The cost per week is much lower than using points.  That's a good thing.  Even though I have enrolled all of my weeks I find that I use points on rare occasions.  Although there are more options with points like short or extended stays and borrowing from next year I think a lot of people still find the weeks system a good thing.


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## puckmanfl (Nov 1, 2013)

good afternoon...

These are just a few of my point stays...if you go back in the time machine...I was one of the first point users july 201o when this went live!!!!  After the 3.5 hour delay on opening day I snagged KL...

gregT is correct....I am a believer in points  with a CRUCIAL caveat.... I love my points as an ADJUNCT to my weeks ownership....  I just enrolled... essentially for free $695 got me enrollment + 800 one time points... I save over $1000 yearly on exchange fees and cancel fees!!!  Previously, I was paying these in addition to my ever increasing MF's.  Trust points as a stand alone product ar e just way to pricey.  I do endorse the current strategy of buying minimum with rental as needed..OR the "bundle" plan!!!

I also believe int he Sun-thurs 5 night stay, as I can use the best point system of all $$$$ for the fri-sat at a rate better than the $0.43/pt MF's... IOW, If a weekend at Lakeshore in a  3bedroom is 1000 pts..I can get a MVCD discount for cheaper than $430...

This all started in 2004 after 4 hurricanes swept thru SW Florida.  Sanibel was wiped out and I was forced to change anniversary plans.  We went to Grande Vista.  I drank some pretty serious "kool aid" dropped about 80K on 4 unist  MY 2 3 bedroom GV plats and 3 EOY Hawaii's...  Although I purchase developer and got some nice perks... 1 free week in II, $5000 marriott dolllars and a ton of points, I still regretted not buying resale... I dedicated my non-medical and hockey time to maximizing the use of this product...

I have parlayed my initial outlay into over 3,000,000 lifetime MR points, about 2,000,000 were referrals and sales incentives that I could not have snagged any other way.  This granted me platinum status and PP status which has thrown more bennies my way!!! I am 28 nights short of Lifetime Platinum.  That was nice, when I walked into NYC Marriott and was upgraded immediately into 1 bedroomn at Times Square Residence Inn...

Now you know, the rest of the story!!!


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## puckmanfl (Nov 1, 2013)

good afternoon

Puck Trick III...  A friend/owner wants to go to Hawaii 2015..I am going to give him my Waiohai unit... He will deposit points in my account.  We will split the skim.  He will give me more than I get for unit but less than MVCD wants...

A win-win...


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## Fasttr (Nov 1, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> Trust points as a stand alone product ar e just way to pricey.  I do endorse the current strategy of buying minimum with rental as needed..OR the "bundle" plan!!!!



Puck, sounds like you have enjoyed the ride so far, with many more great travel years ahead of you.

One caveat on your statement above about "Trust points as a stand alone product are just way to pricey".  I am curious as to what you think about my current take on that topic.  If we are talking about Trust points purchased from Marriott, then certainly I totally agree.  If we are talking about buying as many as you need for a nice one week stay somewhere (lets say 3500-5000 points as an example) on the resale market, much less pricey than from Marriott, but yes, I still agree, it's a very pricey way to go.  

BUT....if you eventually see yourself wanting 3, 4 or perhaps more weeks to USE, and especially if you may use them in some years, but not all years, then I really feel that purchasing the minimum Trust points on the resale market (a 1500 point base interest) and renting the rest, gets you access to as many weeks as you want to eventually use at a fairly reasonable entry price ($10.5K using my numbers already hashed over many times in this thread).  To the point that eventually, this approach may even be cheaper than buying resale weeks if you get to a certain number of total weeks used (not exactly sure what that magic number is).  

The point being, the more weeks you want/need/intend to use, the more the "buy 1500 points and rent the rest" starts to pay off for you as your upfront costs do not change at all with each additional week you want to use.  Another plus is, in the years things pop up and you can't use that many weeks, you don't need to pay the MF's as you would have to if you owned the weeks (as I am basically saying the fees to rent the points are essentially equal to the MF's you would be paying on the weeks if you owned them).  

I am interested to see if you concur Puck, or if you think my shot is wide of the net!!!

Again, thanks for sharing your story....always good to see a backstory about a famous Tugger.


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## puckmanfl (Nov 1, 2013)

good evening...

to quote "Catch me if you can"  "yes, I concur"

Yes, I agree ..

as an entry point into system..buy minimum and rent is a great idea...

luckily, we enrolled pre 6/20/10 owners don't have to do this... we can just rent as need as we are already in!!! GregT is buying resale points because he wants first dibs with Trust points on beloved 6206 week 26...

When I first sold the bundle plan to friends.... We had not had an actual resale Trust purchase here.  Now it seems, that a minimum Trust purchase (after paying junk fees) then rental is a very viable way to proceed...

it makes inventory check a little dicey because you need points to see inventory but there are clever ways around it!!!!


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## puckmanfl (Nov 1, 2013)

good afternoon....

I am looking forward to the day, where my 3 bedroom GV will be used during Presidents week, to house the grandkids at the mouse house...

Nowhere near that however....

those EOY Hawaii units will make a nice honeymoongift for the "drains" when we get closer to such things....

2015  Spain  looks like the next adventure....Probably a 2-3 week jaunt in spring time..especially with the last drain off to college....

very close to my week in 2014 in beloved and revered 6206!!!!


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## Fasttr (Nov 1, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> luckily, we enrolled pre 6/20/10 owners don't have to do this... we can just rent as need as we are already in!!!



That is a huge point, and one that I feel several non-enrolled owners are missing if they ever see a day where they may want more weeks than they currently have.  

Many tout that buying more weeks is the way to go.  They tout that buying a resale week is much cheaper than buying the points, even resale points.... BUT as you said, once you are in the DC, you are in, and if you are an *enrolled* pre 6/20/10 week owner who wants more weeks, you have easy access to renting the points needed for the additional weeks, virtually as many as you want in any given year, with an upfront cost of $0, ziltch, nada, nothing.  You just pay the rental costs, which again, is similar to what your annual MF's would be on owned weeks (and you only have to pay in the years you need them).  

As GregT has pointed out, the ability to currently have unlimited transfers (aka ability to be a renter, or a rentee ) is a powerful tool.

So the way I see it, if you are new to the DC game, the buy 1500 and rent the rest is a smart approach, AND if you are not currently enrolled but feel you want more weeks, it might make sense to take a hard look at enrolling before you go out and pop the additional upfront costs to buy the weeks.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 1, 2013)

SunandFun83 said:


> ... Don't tell me about "Flexibility" because most of the mature properties have extremely limited availability of reservations with points.  If the trust does not own enough weeks then you ar enot going to find points reservations. ...





jancurious said:


> From my experience with points for the last three and half years, I would disagree with you about this comment.  Marriott came up with all of my requests every time even for one night stays. (and I only have legacy points!)  I might have been on a wait list for awhile, but they always came through.  So at least for now......I would still say the points program gives you a great deal of flexibility.
> 
> Jan





Fasttr said:


> Gotta agree with *jancurious* on this one.  It has been our exprience that availability with points has been excellent also.  I believe *SunandFun83* is forgetting about Legacy owners converting thier weeks to points, which opens up those mature properties for points owners.



The other thing SunandFun83 appears to be missing is that Marriott has access to fulfill DC Point requests with any Weeks deposited by owners to II.  I agree with you two and anyone else who says that flexibility/availability from the DC Exchange Company isn't anywhere near a problem.  There aren't any guarantees, and you may have to Waitlist especially for the highest-demand resorts/periods, but no exchange company offers guarantees.  Learn the system like Puck has and you'll be way more satisfied than disappointed.


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## NightSkyTraveler (Nov 1, 2013)

I have really been thinking about what to do next with our marriott timeshare. Add points, weeks, bundle. But after reading through this thread, I am going to stick with what we have and just rent points as we need/want. Thanks everyone for helping with this decision. 

Also, Puck, I have not thought about doing the weekdays with weekends as cash. Do you extend that to more than a week, or just short stays?  And if longer stays, do you end up in the same place or have to move?


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## puckmanfl (Nov 1, 2013)

good evening

just did it once..to add a sat night to a 5 night stay..did not have to move...

another nice trick


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## Fasttr (Nov 1, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> good evening
> 
> just did it once..to add a sat night to a 5 night stay..did not have to move...
> 
> another nice trick



I also added a cash night to my points stay once at MGV and did not have to move.


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## ffxjack (May 4, 2014)

*Enrollment rules secondary market?*

Hope this thread isn't dead as it's been a tremendously helpful resource.

Thinking about buying min 1500 DC points resale (if I can find them somewhere at reasonable prices). I already bought pre 2010 resale. Will Marriott allow me to enroll my week as part of the $2395 fee? I like the idea of enrolling my legacy week occasionally and renting whatever additional points I may need any given year.

Also, anyone know what the points costs are on Alaskan cruises? Is that info easily accessible to non-DC members?

Just attended presentation where they said fee may go up to over 3k soon but who knows.


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## Fasttr (May 4, 2014)

ffxjack said:


> Hope this thread isn't dead as it's been a tremendously helpful resource.
> 
> Thinking about buying min 1500 DC points resale (if I can find them somewhere at reasonable prices). I already bought pre 2010 resale. Will Marriott allow me to enroll my week as part of the $2395 fee? I like the idea of enrolling my legacy week occasionally and renting whatever additional points I may need any given year.
> 
> ...



It sounds like you have the ability to enroll your pre 2010 week, so why not just do that and rent whatever additional points you need, rather than outlaying the $$ to purchase the 1500 resale points too?


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## ffxjack (May 4, 2014)

*Didn't think of that!*

So, one time 2395 fee then on going 175/yr whether I use my week or convert to legacy points or not right?

If I rent points as needed (2015 cruise for example), how do I figure out the point total to find out how many I need to rent?


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## Fasttr (May 4, 2014)

ffxjack said:


> So, one time 2395 fee then on going 175/yr whether I use my week or convert to legacy points or not right?
> 
> If I rent points as needed (2015 cruise for example), how do I figure out the point total to find out how many I need to rent?



Your numbers appear correct.  You will also get some singe-use "PlusPoints" as a bonus for enrolling, which I believe are good for a year and can be used to book ressie's 60 days or closer.  I saw a recent post that put the PlusPoints incentive at 3,685 points.  They are great if you have the flexibility for a last minute getaway or if you are within driving distance to some MVC resorts, perhaps a couple last minute long weekends.  

Not sure if you can currently view the Explorer Collection point requirements (which is where the Cruises are located) via my-vacationclub.com without being in the DC, but assuming you cannot, I gave a quick look and here are some point requirement highlights of the Alaskan Cruises.  7 day Alaska cruises (Holland America) start at 3,450 points.  10-14 day Alaska cruises (Princess) starting at 5,000 points.


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## m61376 (May 7, 2014)

There have been several posts about cruise costs and many have posted that there are additional fees tacked on as well, so make sure you inquire about fees not included before booking. In general, they are not a good deal, and you might be better off using one of the cruise discounters, unless you own a lot of weeks/ have a lot of points that you'd just rather utilize that way.

Even at the $2395 joining can be a good deal, since those plus points can be parlayed into some nice vacation time. For example, I took advantage of a 40% off Orlando offer last year, and was able to book 3 2BR villas at Harbour Lake/Cypress Harbour for 6 nights each. We landed up needing only two of them, so I rented one for 580 on the Tug board, bringing my enrollment cost down to 1800, but I used the other two villas, which II was charging 1K apiece for as Getaways for a week at the time we went. So I feel like my enrollment was free, and even better- we took our then 3 year old little darling for his first trip to Disney ... Priceless....


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## puckmanfl (May 7, 2014)

good morning...

Please enroll and rent extra points....Enrolling and adding Legacy DC points as an adjunct to weeks ownership rocks!!! New points as a stand alone purchase... not so much..The new points come with a $0.45/pt MF... you can rent at $0.50  at greg/steve website....


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## ffxjack (May 7, 2014)

*Thanks all!*

Thanks everyone for the great advice. Now, the only question is when do I enroll?

I probably will be using my week 5 out of the next 8 years (but not 2015). I'm thinking of maybe renting out my week the 3 years I don't use it and then enrolling after the kids are out of the house and converting to points then. I figure it will save me the annual $175 fee (although it may cost $5000 to enroll by then). It's too bad DC points expire after 2 yrs.


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## GregT (May 7, 2014)

ffxjack said:


> Thanks everyone for the great advice. Now, the only question is when do I enroll?
> 
> I probably will be using my week 5 out of the next 8 years (but not 2015). I'm thinking of maybe renting out my week the 3 years I don't use it and then enrolling after the kids are out of the house and converting to points then. I figure it will save me the annual $175 fee (although it may cost $5000 to enroll by then). It's too bad DC points expire after 2 yrs.



I would just enroll it now.  Who knows what will be different in a couple of years, and you will find it easier (and possibly more lucrative) to rent out the points from your week, versus the week itself.  There's less risk from renting points versus renting the week to the occupant.

It is indeed a drag paying $175 for 5 years, but the up-front may be higher (or the option to enroll may be gone).

Good luck with the consideration!

Best,

Greg


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## TheTimeTraveler (May 7, 2014)

GregT said:


> I would just enroll it now.  Who knows what will be different in a couple of years, and you will find it easier (and possibly more lucrative) to rent out the points from your week, versus the week itself.  There's less risk from renting points versus renting the week to the occupant.
> 
> It is indeed a drag paying $175 for 5 years, but the up-front may be higher (or the option to enroll may be gone).
> 
> ...






I agree.  Enroll now while you still can.  Who knows when this enrollment window will close or if the price will go up (it has once already).





.


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## ffxjack (May 7, 2014)

*Can DC points be devalued?*

At the recent presentation, I was told that the points per week enrolled were always fixed as are what it costs to rent any particular week. However, looking at the MVCI website, it looks like they reserve the right to change the values anytime. Any thoughts?

If I enroll soon, I have until Sept 30, 2014 to enroll my summer 2015 wk right? At what point do they credit me the points so that I can actually use them. Is it 1/1/2015 and they expire 12/31/2017?

For those who rent the points, do you go ahead look up the total points needed, rent them from someone, and then hope the request comes through? I would hate to deal with availability issues since our schedules aren't so flexible.


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## dioxide45 (May 7, 2014)

ffxjack said:


> At the recent presentation, I was told that the points per week enrolled were always fixed as are what it costs to rent any particular week. However, looking at the MVCI website, it looks like they reserve the right to change the values anytime. Any thoughts?



This has been discussed quite a bit around here. While they reserve the right to change the amount of points given to a legacy owner, will they really do that? Possible, but I don't think it makes business sense. I wouldn't expect it to happen any time soon.



> If I enroll soon, I have until Sept 30, 2014 to enroll my summer 2015 wk right? At what point do they credit me the points so that I can actually use them. Is it 1/1/2015 and they expire 12/31/2017?



If you enroll, you can must elect 2015 points by 9/30/2014. There is no current deadline to enroll. If you elect 2015 points, they expire on 12/31/2016 if they are banked in to 2016. The points are available as soon as you elect them. You can borrow them in to 2014 for use if you desire.



> For those who rent the points, do you go ahead look up the total points needed, rent them from someone, and then hope the request comes through? I would hate to deal with availability issues since our schedules aren't so flexible.



This is definitely an issue if the inventory is not available when you first start looking. Others can comment on if this is how they do this when needing to rent and waitlist.


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## GregT (May 7, 2014)

ffxjack said:


> For those who rent the points, do you go ahead look up the total points needed, rent them from someone, and then hope the request comes through? I would hate to deal with availability issues since our schedules aren't so flexible.



Yes, this is what I do.  I anticipate the number of points that I need and then I will go find rentors.    I've accumulated a chunk of points for 2015 to meet my anticipated need and I've now started to rent 2016 points.

I've also learned that my plans change with sufficient frequency that even if my plans fall through (or change) that I can redeploy the points for something useful.   Marriott has very flexible cancelation policies making it painless to cancel and rebook.   Expiration dates are relevant, but as long as we are thinking about it, it should not be a problem.

Marriott has done a very impressive job of accumulating the inventory to make the system work.  Even if your week isn't available 12 months out, most people have reported that the Waitlist has matched within a reasonable period of time (2 months or so). So even if the inventory isn't there at Month 12, give it some time.

I hope that helps!

Best,

Greg


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## ffxjack (May 7, 2014)

GregT said:


> Even if your week isn't available 12 months out, most people have reported that the Waitlist has matched within a reasonable period of time (2 months or so). So even if the inventory isn't there at Month 12, give it some time.



Do you mean 10 months out or 2 months prior to your requested date? Are you making the reservations through your vacation advisor or is there some kind of centralized Marriott website that you do it yourself?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm a resale owner of one week since 2006 who's only traded via II once and rented via Redweek once. I basically use the week I bought.


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## GregT (May 7, 2014)

ffxjack said:


> Do you mean 10 months out or 2 months prior to your requested date? Are you making the reservations through your vacation advisor or is there some kind of centralized Marriott website that you do it yourself?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions but I'm a resale owner of one week since 2006 who's only traded via II once and rented via Redweek once. I basically use the week I bought.



No problem at all -- what has been reported here on TUG is that an owner will place a Waitlist request 12 months out, and then soon (less than two months later, or more than 10 months from check-in), the waitlist will clear.

Waitlist requests have to be made through the VOA in a phone call.  I've made reservations both electronically through the website and also through calling the VOA.  I mostly use the weeks that I bought, and my primary points usage is from points that I have rented from other owners.

I hope that helps!

Best,

Greg


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## SeaDoc (May 9, 2014)

If you enroll your weeks, because you bought a resale week in 2006, your week will be upgraded to developer week status.  You will be able to convert your week to marriott reward points either ey or eoy and they don't expire!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ffxjack (May 9, 2014)

SeaDoc said:


> If you enroll your weeks, because you bought a resale week in 2006, your week will be upgraded to developer week status.  You will be able to convert your week to marriott reward points either ey or eoy and they don't expire!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



From what I've read, MRP seem to be worth so little due to frequent devaluations. I actually bought a wk stay at ocean watch next summer from Marriott (always been curious and it seemed like a reasonable price) and they threw in 100k MRP like it was nothing. I'm figuring I better find a way to use them ASAP. 

That being said, I want to enroll eventually.  I will either do it now since I'm not using my week next year or wait 5 or 6 yrs and watch for announcements in terms of price hikes or even closure of enrollment option.


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## SeaDoc (May 9, 2014)

*I still think Marriott Reward Points have their place*

Travel packages with combo hotel stays (5or7days) and airline miles are still a good deal, especially for significant world travel, i.e. Asia, Africa, NZ, and Australia... :whoopie:


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## rahulgopi (Jul 8, 2014)

*Buying Premium account*

Dear All,
  went thru the whole thread and advice regarding starting with a small account (1500 ) and renting the rest. I am considering buying a premium account (6500)  at $4 / pt + fees. The reason I am considering this is for the following
1) 25% off on last minute reservations (30 days for premium). We do travel often in 30 day window.
2) Rent out unused points for a premium of 10c. With 1500 account I will definitely end up renting more points.  

25% off is definitely very appealing for me as this will significantly bring down the points required.


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## Fasttr (Jul 8, 2014)

rahulgopi said:


> Dear All,
> went thru the whole thread and advice regarding starting with a small account (1500 ) and renting the rest. I am considering buying a premium account (6500)  at $4 / pt + fees. The reason I am considering this is for the following
> 1) 25% off on last minute reservations (30 days for premium). We do travel often in 30 day window.
> 2) Rent out unused points for a premium of 10c. With 1500 account I will definitely end up renting more points.
> ...



Here is a very simplified approach to answering your question.

Option 1:  Buy 1500 points @ $4/pt, plus junk fees for an all in price of say $9K.
Option 2:  Buy 6500 points @ $4/pt, plus junk fees for an all in price of say $29K

If you use 6500 points every year, the additional you would be paying to rent the differential of 5000 points is negligible....approx. $500/yr. (rental costs over MF costs)

If you use 6500 points every year, and *ALWAYS* got the 25% discount, the 25% discount would save you 1625 points a year, at a value of approx. $900 (using a current $0.55/point rental fee to value the points)

This gets you to a total additional annual outlay, using the specifics of your situation, of $1,400 because you only own 1500 and not 6500 points.

With no time value of money calculated in to keep the numbers very simple, it would take you over 14 years to break even on your additional $20K upfront outlay.  Many more years than that if you tossed in a time value of money calculation.  Granted the cost to rent points will uptick with the rise in MF's, but again, that does not offset the time value of money on your initial $20K in savings.  

I still say buy 1500 and rent the rest.


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## rahulgopi (Jul 8, 2014)

Thank you for the detailed response, very very helpful. Given the fact that Marriott is issuing ROFR on anything below $4 / pt (got this info from the closing company ) , developer points are increasing in price ( $9 to close to $12 now) ,  there is a good probability for resale points to retain value around $4.  

Given this, under ideal situation as you explained, it is $1400 annual return on $20,000 additional investment. ( I did not include interest rate as I get close to nothing for 20K in my savings account )

This is under the assumption that I can dispose the account 5 years down the line and recoup most of my 25K investment.

I am not sure if I got this right but since investment retains some value, 6.5K account seem right.

I had a similar experience with my Worldmark account, got a bigger account during 2011 for 20c per point, rented out most of the credits that I was not using which covered most of my maintenance fees. Now credits are selling close to 40c in resale market, good capital appreciation.


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## Fasttr (Jul 8, 2014)

rahulgopi said:


> Thank you for the detailed response, very very helpful. Given the fact that Marriott is issuing ROFR on anything below $4 / pt (got this info from the closing company ) , developer points are increasing in price ( $9 to close to $12 now) ,  there is a good probability for resale points to retain value around $4.
> 
> Given this, under ideal situation as you explained, it is $1400 annual return on $20,000 additional investment. ( I did not include interest rate as I get close to nothing for 20K in my savings account )
> 
> ...



The view of the economics of the deal does change based on your perspective on the initial cash outlay as either an investment that you will get back, or as sunk costs that you will likely never see again.  Only the future knows which is likely to be true.  

Also, it depends on your anticipated/expected return that you would have received on the extra cash outlay (i.e. traditional savings account at a bank vs stock market returns over the past couple of years).


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