# Jump in resale prices



## happyhopian (Jan 27, 2017)

I don't know how many here follow ebay sales but I've been tracking prices for a while and I've noticed that price per thousand has gone up dramatically. It has nearly doubled since the fall. I was regularly buying below $2.50/1000 in the back end of 2016 and now the prices are $4-$8 and some closing at $10/1000 on CWA but there was also a Steamboat Springs go for nearly $8/1000. I guess this is good news depending on if you are a buyer or a seller. Thoughts?


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## dgalati (Jan 27, 2017)

Always is at its lowest end of Oct - Dec 31. Tends to go up March and through the summer .


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## ronparise (Jan 27, 2017)

Remember a number of regular buyers left the market. It sounds like others are coming back in

I'm trying to figure out where pricing is right now and what I see is that the larger contracts are selling but the little stuff; not so much.  But I havent been watching long enough to be sure


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## happyhopian (Jan 27, 2017)

I did a spreadsheet that I update frequently and I agree in looking back that there is a seasonal trend over the last two years I did not notice. Right now inventory is also down so that likely has an impact. I bought 800k points @ 2.25 average in November and now those same contracts are north of $5 as much as $10...just crazy right now.


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## Ty1on (Jan 27, 2017)

happyhopian said:


> I did a spreadsheet that I update frequently and I agree in looking back that there is a seasonal trend over the last two years I did not notice. Right now inventory is also down so that likely has an impact. I bought 800k points @ 2.25 average in November and now those same contracts are north of $5 as much as $10...just crazy right now.



Over the last two years, $2.25 is actually the crazier number.  $7-$10 for decent contracts in Summer.


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## nicemann (Jan 27, 2017)

I paid $7 per 1k back in August for a CWA.  I know some people on here would say that is too high but I bought it off of here on TUG via a member that specializes in resells and works for a title company.  It put my mind at ease.  Really glad I did because the first year of points (2017) was short in points and she made it right.  I know some sellers would not have.


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## foundyoubyaccident (Jan 29, 2017)

Are your figures with or without deed and transfer?
Just curious to see where I am at with my resales?


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## happyhopian (Jan 29, 2017)

Yes. For some there are closing and transfer cost and for others there are not. For example only for CWA contracts (including transfer/closing cost where they are charged) over all of 2016 the average for CWA is $5.15/1000. My personal purchase is under $4. I blind bid everything at $3/1k after that I manage my bids on a case by case basis. I mis a lot but I am not a chaser. There is not a lot of inventory on line right now. After looking things over since posting this I believe that is the reason for the recent spike. Others will say that is not a spike, but a return to normal. There were more than 30 wyndham deeded auctions which received zero bids in the last quarter of 2016 alone. Some of these were trash of course, and in most every case the minimum bid was at least $99 PLUS closing/transfer cost. I did not track each one but in many cases I did watch the price was reduced to $1 and/or the closing cost was removed and in even some cases for branson and other properties the sellers were paying transfer and closing cost with auction starting bids as low as $1. It only takes a couple of months to hold this inventory with MF before it starts eating away annual profits on other sales. Don't know if this helps but it has been very helpful to me in my acquisitions.


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## ronparise (Feb 8, 2017)

I know its Bali Hai with low maintenance fees, but Damn  this went off today at over $23/1000 points... Forget renting, A guy could make some real money buying and selling

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391692795789?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## lcml11 (Feb 8, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I know its Bali Hai with low maintenance fees, but Damn  this went off today at over $23/1000 points... Forget renting, A guy could make some real money buying and selling
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/391692795789?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT



Probably true at certain of the resorts.


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## spackler (Feb 8, 2017)

Look at the completed sales of "Wyndham points" auctions on eBay - many of them are essentially worthless.  You'll spend more on the transfer/closing fees than actual purchase price.  A recent Nashville one went for $1 plus $299 transfer fee.

EDIT:  Just checked MFs at Nashville: $6.67 per thousand points, not including program fees...ouch.


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## ronparise (Feb 8, 2017)

spackler said:


> Look at the completed sales of "Wyndham points" auctions on eBay - many of them are essentially worthless.  You'll spend more on the transfer/closing fees than actual purchase price.  A recent Nashville one went for $1 plus $299 transfer fee.
> 
> EDIT:  Just checked MFs at Nashville: $6.67 per thousand points, not including program fees...ouch.






the little ones go back to Wyndham via Ovation  but the bigger ones like the Bali Hai I posted and 300000+ contracts ought to work if you can get them for the right number


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## dagger1 (Feb 8, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I know its Bali Hai with low maintenance fees, but Damn  this went off today at over $23/1000 points... Forget renting, A guy could make some real money buying and selling
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/391692795789?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT



Wasn't it $11.73 per thousand...


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## spackler (Feb 8, 2017)

No, it was effectively 154,000 per year; although the price did include all transfer/closing fees.


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## ronparise (Feb 8, 2017)

dagger1 said:


> Wasn't it $11.73 per thousand...



Double that. It's an eoy


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## dagger1 (Feb 9, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Double that. It's an eoy



I missed that!!  Lord, that's really high!!


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## ronparise (Feb 9, 2017)

i thought so too. In fact I thought it was a mistake. Maybe like you the bidders thought it was an annual contract. But even then it's high


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## dagger1 (Feb 9, 2017)

ronparise said:


> i thought so too. In fact I thought it was a mistake. Maybe like you the bidders thought it was an annual contract. But even then it's high


I just looked at the first eBay page, saw the winning bid and points...  $7K for 308,000 points...  Wow!!!


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## happyhopian (Feb 10, 2017)

I know this is crazy but what is strange is the tremendous fall in inventory. For most of 2016 there were always 20 or more wyndham access contracts for sale on ebay. For the last two months I haven't seen more than 10 and today there are only 8. At first I thought maybe Wyndham had entered the market but then I noticed it was an inventory drop sending prices up. I'm just not buying right now. I got lots at the end of last year (750k) in the range I stated earlier so I'll just wait. Another thing I noticed is that the large sellers are changing their rules SO READ CAREFULLY. I notice several who are now requiring payment of Maint fees stating with first day of the new year (january/april/june). That is CRAZY considering Wyndham right now if JUST closing November contracts. I would be FURIOUS if I paid fair price for the auction, plus closing, plus tranfer and then they wanted me to pay maint fees during the transfer process....but clearly some are paying that so the costs are even higher. Me feels very confident that the prices will go back down when inventory comes back on line from the end of year sell off.


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## ronparise (Feb 10, 2017)

happyhopian said:


> I know this is crazy but what is strange is the tremendous fall in inventory. For most of 2016 there were always 20 or more wyndham access contracts for sale on ebay. For the last two months I haven't seen more than 10 and today there are only 8. At first I thought maybe Wyndham had entered the market but then I noticed it was an inventory drop sending prices up. I'm just not buying right now. I got lots at the end of last year (750k) in the range I stated earlier so I'll just wait. Another thing I noticed is that the large sellers are changing their rules SO READ CAREFULLY. I notice several who are now requiring payment of Maint fees stating with first day of the new year (january/april/june). That is CRAZY considering Wyndham right now if JUST closing November contracts. I would be FURIOUS if I paid fair price for the auction, plus closing, plus tranfer and then they wanted me to pay maint fees during the transfer process....but clearly some are paying that so the costs are even higher. Me feels very confident that the prices will go back down when inventory comes back on line from the end of year sell off.




 I think inventory is down because Wyndham is doing a better job promoting Ovation. Owners that want out used to only have 3 choices, default, sell it on their own or pay one of the timeshare relief companies.  Most of what was on ebay was  timeshare relief company inventory

now with Ovation lots of what used go to timeshare relief companies is going back to Wyndham. There is no reason for a Wyndham owner to pay to dump what they own. 

So now all you see on ebay are the  contracts from owners that know about the secondary market owners are unwilling to just give what they own back to Wyndham and the timeshare relief companies inventory from the folks that just dont know about ovation or the secondary market. And the better job Wyndham does with Ovation, the more ebay supply will go down.

Bottom line; supply is down, which in a perfect world ought to push prices up. In fact given the reduced inventory I would expect prices to be much higher than they are. So why arent they?  I think its because a lot of us former big buyers have dropped out of the market since the account suspensions last August.


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## foundyoubyaccident (Feb 13, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I think inventory is down because Wyndham is doing a better job promoting Ovation. Owners that want out used to only have 3 choices, default, sell it on their own or pay one of the timeshare relief companies.  Most of what was on ebay was  timeshare relief company inventory
> 
> now with Ovation lots of what used go to timeshare relief companies is going back to Wyndham. There is no reason for a Wyndham owner to pay to dump what they own.
> 
> ...




Hey Ron, why don't you start a ts relief company?


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## ronparise (Feb 13, 2017)

foundyoubyaccident said:


> Hey Ron, why don't you start a ts relief company?



Not a relief company, but maybe a brokerage
It's tough to do a relief company specializing in Wyndham when Wyndham takes back their stuff for free


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## lcml11 (Feb 13, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Not a relief company, but maybe a brokerage
> It's tough to do a relief company specializing in Wyndham when Wyndham takes back their stuff for free



This site still active?

my other website


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## ronparise (Feb 13, 2017)

lcml11 said:


> This site still active?
> 
> my other website



I just clicked on the link and yes it is


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## cayman01 (Feb 18, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I think inventory is down because Wyndham is doing a better job promoting Ovation. Owners that want out used to only have 3 choices, default, sell it on their own or pay one of the timeshare relief companies.  Most of what was on ebay was  timeshare relief company inventory
> 
> now with Ovation lots of what used go to timeshare relief companies is going back to Wyndham. There is no reason for a Wyndham owner to pay to dump what they own.
> 
> ...



I agree with this assessment. People are giving their stuff back to Wyndham for free instead of paying a relief service. I think the only thing we will see in eBay as we move forward are deeds that actually have resale value because of location or low maintenance fees. And the price will go up. I paid $9/1000 for a Bali Hai Presidential Reserve contract and am very happy with that. You will see much more of that and less low point/high MF contracts. They will go to Ovation.


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## lcml11 (Feb 18, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> I agree with this assessment. People are giving their stuff back to Wyndham for free instead of paying a relief service. I think the only thing we will see in eBay as we move forward are deeds that actually have resale value because of location or low maintenance fees. And the price will go up. I paid $9/1000 for a Bali Hai Presidential Reserve contract and am very happy with that. You will see much more of that and less low point/high MF contracts. They will go to Ovation.



I would think that a more reliable indicator would be when re-sellers, such as Wyndham and/or others, start paying a significant amount for a re-sale for their inventories.

At least in Wyndhamland, it appears re-sale values now have a floor of zero instead of negative values.


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## ronparise (Feb 18, 2017)

A more reliable indicator of what?


What's being said on this thread is that the smaller contracts are still worth less than zero. Ovation is a good deal for sellers of these contracts  but the larger contracts have value. How much depends on the maintenance fees

Resellers (like me) will pay more when they can sell for more. I'm not paying more just hoping to prices will go up. Wyndham will pay more only when they have to. To attract inventory


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## jbteal (Feb 19, 2017)

I am new to TUG. I found it when whyndham  had me believing their lies. Thanks to all of you I got a full refund .Did any one else see the listing on ebay last night 1,143,000 platinum vip points it sold for $30,000 it said vip goes with it .Is that even possible?


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## nicemann (Feb 19, 2017)

jbteal said:


> I am new to TUG. I found it when whyndham  had me believing their lies. Thanks to all of you I got a full refund .Did any one else see the listing on ebay last night 1,143,000 platinum vip points it sold for $30,000 it said vip goes with it .Is that even possible?



Someone was stating the same kind of deal here on and they were selling it through the TUG marketplace.  Don't think anyone ever said how they were doing it.  Had me wondering then.


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## ronparise (Feb 19, 2017)

jbteal said:


> I am new to TUG. I found it when whyndham  had me believing their lies. Thanks to all of you I got a full refund .Did any one else see the listing on ebay last night 1,143,000 platinum vip points it sold for $30,000 it said vip goes with it .Is that even possible?




Yes I saw it and I know the seller.  I  also know the secret of how its done and it looks like so does he;  and so will you if you buy this account.  I suggest that you put the 30 k into escrow to be  released after the contracts settle and Platinum status is achieved.


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## ronparise (Feb 19, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Yes I saw it and I know the seller.  I  also know the secret of how its done and it looks like so does he;  and so will you if you buy this account.  I suggest that you put the 30 k into escrow to be  released after the contracts settle and Platinum status is achieved.




Too late... its now marked sold....


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## bnoble (Feb 19, 2017)

I'd guess either a trust w/change in trustee, or a VIP account where someone is added, and...later...the original owner is removed (possibly at said owner's demise). Whether either works or not I have no idea.

Either way, I'm not sure I'd pay $26/K for it.


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## ronparise (Feb 19, 2017)

bnoble said:


> I'd guess either a trust w/change in trustee, or a VIP account where someone is added, and...later...the original owner is removed (possibly at said owner's demise). Whether either works or not I have no idea.
> 
> Either way, I'm not sure I'd pay $26/K for it.




none of that


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## foundyoubyaccident (Feb 20, 2017)

jbteal said:


> I am new to TUG. I found it when whyndham  had me believing their lies. Thanks to all of you I got a full refund .Did any one else see the listing on ebay last night 1,143,000 platinum vip points it sold for $30,000 it said vip goes with it .Is that even possible?



I am wondering if they are claiming relation, such as a step daughter/son or step brother/sister.


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 20, 2017)

More likely a direct by Wyndham owner who paid $30,000 for a 154K direct buy contract and believes they got a bargain of a lifetime. 

And actually did MORE research this time than they did when they brought directly from Wyndham.


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## Slinger (Feb 20, 2017)

foundyoubyaccident said:


> I am wondering if they are claiming relation, such as a step daughter/son or step brother/sister.



None of those. No family. No relation. No adding to the account then removing a name. No trust transfer.


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## ronparise (Feb 20, 2017)

foundyoubyaccident said:


> I am wondering if they are claiming relation, such as a step daughter/son or step brother/sister.


not that either


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## ronparise (Feb 20, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> More likely a direct by Wyndham owner who paid $30,000 for a 154K direct buy contract and believes they got a bargain of a lifetime.
> 
> And actually did MORE research this time than they did when they brought directly from Wyndham.


 nope


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## nicemann (Feb 20, 2017)

If several people know...whats the big secret?  Pretty sure Wyndham would know also but like everything else they just haven't had the skill to fix it yet.


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## spackler (Feb 20, 2017)

It's not a big secret.  Make an LLC the owner of developer platinum points, then change owner of LLC at a later time. 

(I don't know if that's what this particular eBay seller is doing, but the LLC method is one route to take)


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## Slinger (Feb 20, 2017)

spackler said:


> It's not a big secret.  Make an LLC the owner of developer platinum points, then change owner of LLC at a later time.
> 
> (I don't know if that's what this particular eBay seller is doing, but the LLC method is one route to take)



Nope. There will be no LLC/Trust/Company/Corporation involved. 

Though that may work, I have no idea.


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## spackler (Feb 20, 2017)

I can't imagine whatever method is being used is much easier/cheaper than the LLC method.  It costs all of $90/$30 to create/amend an LLC in my state.  Takes 5 minutes to fill out.


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## nicemann (Feb 20, 2017)

I personally think it's crazy Wyndham (along with other timeshares) can treat resell different then developer purchases.  Once upon a time all resell was bought from the developer.  So they were paid full price for the points or deed.  I am sure this has been debated over and over on here.  Just my personal opinion.


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## BellaWyn (Feb 21, 2017)

nicemann said:


> I personally think it's crazy Wyndham (along with other timeshares) can treat resell different then developer purchases.  Once upon a time all resell was bought from the developer.  So they were paid full price for the points or deed.  I am sure this has been debated over and over on here.  Just my personal opinion.


If you are on the receiving side of the $$ pool (aka WYN) then it doesn't translate to "crazy" it translates to "profits" and, in some circles, that's as sane as it gets.


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## ronparise (Feb 21, 2017)

Even with the discounts a VIP owner who buys from Wyndham pays a lot more more per vacation than the secondary market buyer does for the same vacation. 

If there is a "two class" system it's the guy that pays developer prices that gets the short end of the stick, especially the guys that don't buy enough to get to VIP

Secondary market buyers go first class for less


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## happyhopian (Feb 21, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> I agree with this assessment. People are giving their stuff back to Wyndham for free instead of paying a relief service. I think the only thing we will see in eBay as we move forward are deeds that actually have resale value because of location or low maintenance fees. And the price will go up. I paid $9/1000 for a Bali Hai Presidential Reserve contract and am very happy with that. You will see much more of that and less low point/high MF contracts. They will go to Ovation.



I agree to the point that it is a negative loss but if I can get $4k for my contract on ebay and I get $0 from Wyndham I'm taking the $4k route.


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## cayman01 (Feb 21, 2017)

happyhopian said:


> I agree to the point that it is a negative loss but if I can get $4k for my contract on ebay and I get $0 from Wyndham I'm taking the $4k route.



Agreed, but the point Ron and I are making is your not going to get $4k for a Shawnee or Sapphire Valley or any of the other low desire, high MF places. These properties are going to go to Ovation for free instead of being sent to a marketer for a fee. Those ones on eBay for a buck? The marketer already got his money from the owner. He just wants it off his hands so he doesn't have to pay the MF's.

Which brings us to another point. CWA MF's. I think these babies are going to skyrocket again next year because most of the contracts that are going thru Ovation I believe are the ones with ZERO resale value and HIGH MF's. With no low MF contracts heading into CWA look for your MF's to come in near $7 next year. I would be very skeptical about buying into CWA until this settles out.


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## bnoble (Feb 21, 2017)

I'm not as worried. We've heard plenty of reports of Ovation turning down such deeds. They seem to be angling for a healthy mix of properties on intake.


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## comicbookman (Feb 22, 2017)

bnoble said:


> I'm not as worried. We've heard plenty of reports of Ovation turning down such deeds. They seem to be angling for a healthy mix of properties on intake.


The ones they took from me had high mf one had just hit $10 and the other 2 were near 7


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## bnoble (Feb 22, 2017)

Sure. I didn't say they were taking _none_ of them. But they have turned down _some._


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## BellaWyn (Feb 22, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> Which brings us to another point. CWA MF's. I think these babies are going to skyrocket again next year because most of the contracts that are going thru Ovation I believe are the ones with ZERO resale value and HIGH MF's. With no low MF contracts heading into CWA look for your MF's to come in near $7 next year. I would be very skeptical about buying into CWA until this settles out.


Sans Brian's skeptisim, if the CWA MF's take another high increase like they did this year and MFs DO begin to "skyrocket" what's that going to do to WYNs Golden Child program?  CWA is being sold as the newest and shiniest penny in the group but even aftermarket contracts will quickly become less desireable specifically because of high MF's.


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## ronparise (Feb 22, 2017)

Two points

1)Once the UDI points from a resort are sold out the only thing the salesmen at that resort have to sell is CWA

2) There are still below average mf properties going into CWA I recently gave 12 weeks at avenue plaza  back through ovation.  studios will convert to $4.30 /1000 and one bedrooms to $5.30
I have also turned back national harbor, smoky mountains and Bali hai deeds.


And one more thing. There are two reasons to buy at a particular resort ,  low mf or ARP

There will still be demand for CWA by the folks that are buying for ARP no matter the mf


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## BellaWyn (Feb 22, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Two points
> 
> 1)Once the UDI points from a resort are sold out the only thing the salesmen at that resort have to sell is CWA
> 
> ...


1) ARP with CWA is not guaranteed at high demand, high season locations.  Another WYN illusion?  There are only so many units that can be made available for ARP.  It will fall to those that queue up for the grap at the first possible opportunity.
2) Are you saying WYN will no longer bring on properties that will get sold as UDI or continue to flip the more valuable UDI/point contracts that can be re-sold outside of dumping them all into CWA?

Not a question - statement: You are too contract savvy to let a low MF National Harbor contract, if it still has some real aftermarket value, get "turned back" which subsequently leads one to presume it was not entirely voluntary.


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## nicemann (Feb 22, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> 1) ARP with CWA is not guaranteed at high demand, high season locations.  Another WYN illusion?  There are only so many units that can be made available for ARP.  It will fall to those that queue up for the grap at the first possible opportunity.
> 2) Are you saying WYN will no longer bring on properties that will get sold as UDI or continue to flip the more valuable UDI/point contracts that can be re-sold outside of dumping them all into CWA?
> 
> Not a question - statement: You are too contract savvy to let a low MF National Harbor contract, if it still has some real aftermarket value, get "turned back" which subsequently leads one to presume it was not entirely voluntary.



Yeah I was wondering the same thing when I read that.  Why he would "turn" National Harbor in?  Going to guess it was part of his settlement but he can't give the details on.  Only a guess of course.


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## BellaWyn (Feb 22, 2017)

nicemann said:


> Yeah I was wondering the same thing when I read that.  Why he would "turn" National Harbor in?  Going to guess it was part of his settlement but he can't give the details on.  Only a guess of course.


Do we have 100% confirmation that ALL Ovation turnbacks ONLY go into CWA?  Is it conceivable that some are getting turned back simply because the owner has aged out of wanting to pay MF's on a decent UDI/points contract and then WYN flips it for a devloper sale without putting it into CWA?


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## Braindead (Feb 22, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> Not a question - statement: You are too contract savvy to let a low MF National Harbor contract, if it still has some real aftermarket value, get "turned back" which subsequently leads one to presume it was not entirely voluntary.


One would speculate. Ron did like to strip contracts.


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## ronparise (Feb 22, 2017)

Wyn is not selling fixed weeks so when these are given back something has to happen to them. CWA is the only answer I can come up with

I think it's a special case but the avenue plaza hoa has said some of the weeks they foreclose on go to Worldmark


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## BellaWyn (Feb 22, 2017)

Braindead said:


> One would speculate. Ron did like to strip contracts.


Also known to be adept at reselling a stripped contract to happy buyers.


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## BellaWyn (Feb 22, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Wyn is not selling fixed weeks so when these are given back something has to happen to them. CWA is the only answer I can come up with
> 
> I think it's a special case but the avenue plaza hoa has said some of the weeks they foreclose on go to Worldmark


We already know that Wyn will first "convert" any FW contract to points but also know, to maintain clarification of contract type, that those are not the same as a UDI contract. Hence, the reference to points.

Will make no attempt to speak to anything related to Avenue Plaza.


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## ronparise (Feb 22, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> 1) ARP with CWA is not guaranteed at high demand, high season locations.  Another WYN illusion?  There are only so many units that can be made available for ARP.  It will fall to those that queue up for the grap at the first possible opportunity.
> 2) Are you saying WYN will no longer bring on properties that will get sold as UDI or continue to flip the more valuable UDI/point contracts that can be re-sold outside of dumping them all into CWA?
> 
> Not a question - statement: You are too contract savvy to let a low MF National Harbor contract, if it still has some real aftermarket value, get "turned back" which subsequently leads one to presume it was not entirely voluntary.


ARP is never guaranteed UDI or CWA 
I know I never got all my la Belle Maison points in Mardi Gras reservations. Availability always ran out before my points were used up. That's why I bought CWA. To improve my chances

I'm saying that when a resort is sold out the sales men at that resort can't sell any more UDI. But they can sell cwa 

Also there are some resorts that are all CWA. 

My point is CWA will still be sold by Wyndham and on the secondary market even if mf goes up


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## Braindead (Feb 22, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> Also known to be adept at reselling a stripped contract to happy buyers.


Correct. We even heard from one of his happy customers. Ron is upfront and honest. Not a swipe at Ron maybe he had a chance to turn in contracts and stop paying maintenance fees. Ron is very prudent on his financial decisions from what I have seen.


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## ronparise (Feb 22, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> We already know that Wyn will first "convert" any FW contract to points but also know, to maintain clarification of contract type, that those are not the same as a UDI contract. Hence, the reference to points.
> 
> Will make no attempt to speak to anything related to Avenue Plaza.



The point someone made was that mostly high mf stuff was going into cwa. My counter was that some low mf stuff is going in there too. Specifically the fixed weeks I gave back.


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## BellaWyn (Feb 22, 2017)

ronparise said:


> ARP is never guaranteed UDI or CWA
> I know I never got all my la Belle Maison points in Mardi Gras reservations. Availability always ran out before my points were used up. That's why I bought CWA. To improve my chances
> 
> I'm saying that when a resort is sold out the sales men at that resort can't sell any more UDI. But they can sell cwa
> ...


Any MY point was less about *WILL* CWA sell and more about it becoming *less desirable* (scroll up) as it is currently being touted.

Wyn will sell pretty much any contract that they think will bring them profit.  But there are a lot of CWA owners that have been convinced that CWA is the end all beat all of contract type in the entire system.  When MF's go up, the contract still *can* and *will* sell.  But then so do the UDI & points contracts also, both developer flip and secondary market.


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## bnoble (Feb 22, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> CWA is being sold as the newest and shiniest penny in the group but even aftermarket contracts will quickly become less desireable specifically because of high MF's.


Wyndham does not care about aftermarket contracts. Not their problem. As an aside, is Wyndham selling anything *other than* CWA at the moment? There are reasons to think they would not. Wyndham retains voting rights for all CWA inventory, and does not require a full-blown foreclosure process to claw back non-performing contracts/loans.



BellaWyn said:


> Do we have 100% confirmation that ALL Ovation turnbacks ONLY go into CWA?


No, but it's likely; see above.


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## Braindead (Feb 22, 2017)

bnoble said:


> As an aside, is Wyndham selling anything *other than* CWA at the moment? There are reasons to think they would not.


Yes. Desert Blue,Waikiki Beach Walk, RoyalGardens,Kona that I'm aware of. I was told by sales weasel a year ago Hawaii property was not going into CWA. I'm not stating that as fact but seems possible. I was just at Waikiki and they were selling the 3 above presently individually


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## ronparise (Feb 22, 2017)

nicemann said:


> Yeah I was wondering the same thing when I read that.  Why he would "turn" National Harbor in?  Going to guess it was part of his settlement but he can't give the details on.  Only a guess of course.


Im a short term cash flow kind of guy.. If I see an opportunity to improve my cash flow this month I do it. Even if it might seem a bad idea from a long term point of view. I n my 6 years with wyndham I have bought and sold something like 100 million points.  If I have to give away something good like National Harbor, to get rid of something bad, Ill do it if it improves my cash flow a little bit this month.  And Ill worry about next month when it comes.


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## ecwinch (Feb 22, 2017)

But you must have had some plan if the merry-go-round stopped.


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## ronparise (Feb 22, 2017)

ecwinch said:


> But you must have had some plan if the merry-go-round stopped.




Im 70 years old Eric,  Im gonna die in not too many more years....  thats my plan anyway


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## nicemann (Feb 22, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Im 70 years old Eric,  Im gonna die in not too many more years....  thats my plan anyway



Hey I agree, if you don't have anyone depending on things after you pass away, I agree enjoy life now.  I plan on being that way once I am close to that age.


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## dagger1 (Feb 22, 2017)

nicemann said:


> Hey I agree, if you don't have anyone depending on things after you pass away, I agree enjoy life now.  I plan on being that way once I am close to that age.


I plan on dying someday too, if I live that long!!!


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## ronparise (Feb 22, 2017)

nicemann said:


> Hey I agree, if you don't have anyone depending on things after you pass away, I agree enjoy life now.  I plan on being that way once I am close to that age.



what I should have added is that the timeshares will be wyndhams problem then


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## nicemann (Feb 22, 2017)

ronparise said:


> what I should have added is that the timeshares will be wyndhams problem then



That brings up a good point.  Something I have not researched yet.  If I pass away and my wife does also since she is on the contract, does my son become responsible if he is of age?  Or is something he has the choice or taking or not taking.  I am sure I could Will it to him but if he decides at the time he doesn't want it does Wyndham just have to take it back?


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## Jan M. (Feb 22, 2017)

nicemann said:


> That brings up a good point.  Something I have not researched yet.  If I pass away and my wife does also since she is on the contract, does my son become responsible if he is of age?  Or is something he has the choice or taking or not taking.  I am sure I could Will it to him but if he decides at the time he doesn't want it does Wyndham just have to take it back?



If his name is not on the deed he has the option of refusing it.


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## breezez (Feb 22, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Im 70 years old Eric,  Im gonna die in not too many more years....  thats my plan anyway




Don't die soon - I love all you post and have learned a ton reading them on here


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## nicemann (Feb 22, 2017)

Jan M. said:


> If his name is not on the deed he has the option of refusing it.



Thanks. Saved me some time searching.  Many years left for myself hopefully. Good to know also since my dad just bought one so I'm sure I will be the one left with it.


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## CO skier (Feb 22, 2017)

bnoble said:


> Wyndham does not care about aftermarket contracts. Not their problem. As an aside, is Wyndham selling anything *other than* CWA at the moment? There are reasons to think they would not. Wyndham retains voting rights for all CWA inventory, and does not require a full-blown foreclosure process to claw back non-performing contracts/loans.


I also thought that it would only make sense for Wyndham to put whatever they could into Club Wyndham Access.

Then I remembered my "owner update" offer last year for 84,000 UDI points deeded at Steamboat Springs, CO (but a Club Wyndham Access resort) for the bargain price of about $18,000.

So I did a cursory look into the county records.

Add Steamboat Springs, CO to the list where deeded UDI is still being sold at a CWA resort.

The Fifth Supplemental Club Property Declaration for ClubWyndham Access Ownership Plan at the Village At Steamboat Condo Lot xxxxxx was recorded 12/13/2016.   This was for an Undivided 4642000/454729000 interest and an Undivided 33155499/398143000 interest.

Steamboat Springs, CO is part of Club Wyndham Access, but CWA points with multiple resort ARP, may be sold anywhere.

There are multiple Steamboat Springs UDI sales to individual owners recently recorded, but no CWA sales recorded.  This would make sense, though, because CWA is a Club membership, not a deeded property.

The question in my mind is why would Wyndham still sell UDI points at Steamboat Springs?  Adding as much Steamboat Springs as possible to CWA would drive down the average MF for all of Club Access.  CWA purchasers at Steamboat Springs or anywhere else would get the expanded 13-month Advance Reservation Priority of CWA.  It seems like a win-win.


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## BellaWyn (Feb 23, 2017)

CO skier said:


> I also thought that it would only make sense for Wyndham to put whatever they could into Club Wyndham Access.
> 
> Then I remembered my "owner update" offer last year for 84,000 UDI points deeded at Steamboat Springs, CO (but a Club Wyndham Access resort) for the bargain price of about $18,000.
> 
> ...



Perhaps Steamboat is a location where deeds taken back through Ovation (or some other equity exchange via developer) can still be flipped UDI CWP for decent $$ to Wyn vs putting the deeds into CWA (aka "buy 84K points for *only* $18K!").  

Or, could have something to do with the strength of the HOA's in that location and their agreements with Wyn?

Spectulating... don't really have any idea.  But usually Wyn's actions are primarily motivated by profitability.


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## CO skier (Feb 23, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> Perhaps Steamboat is a location where deeds taken back through Ovation (or some other equity exchange via developer) can still be flipped UDI CWP for decent $$ to Wyn vs putting the deeds into CWA (aka "buy 84K points for *only* $18K!").


Most of what Wyndham is selling as Steamboat Springs - Club Wyndham UDI is the result of the Wixon extraction from WorldMark.  Wyndham could have dumped all of the Steamboat Springs extracted inventory into Club Wyndham Access, but (apparently) they did not do that.  The answer to the question, "Why not?" would be most interesting to know. 

Whether a UDI or CWA contract at Steamboat Springs or a different resort, I am sure that $18K for 84,000 points is the "starting point rate (MSRP)" for developer offers.  When is comes to developer sales, "points are points".


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## BellaWyn (Feb 23, 2017)

CO skier said:


> Most of what Wyndham is selling as Steamboat Springs - Club Wyndham UDI is the result of the Wixon extraction from WorldMark.  Wyndham could have dumped all of the Steamboat Springs extracted inventory into Club Wyndham Access, but (apparently) they did not do that.  The answer to the question, "Why not?" would be most interesting to know.
> 
> Whether a UDI or CWA contract at Steamboat Springs or a different resort, I am sure that $18K for 84,000 points is the "starting point rate (MSRP)" for developer offers.  When is comes to developer sales, "points are points".


Does it consume more resource for Title to get UDI deeds into CWA?  Usually those are done in batches via agreements with the HOAs. A straight flip might be faster.  

Flag still flips deeds and then resells via Wyn sales force also.  They are not the first contracts offered at a sit down however but they are still happeneing.  Have been watching Flag deeds in county records for years.  

Agree sales will sell anything as long as they sell something.  But if they have options would they prioritize the offers?  Have had that happen at a sit down where one contract type is offered and the conversation evolves to other options.


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## nicemann (Feb 23, 2017)

Just because I was a little bored while the kid was still sleeping, figured I would do a quick search on the Clark County Website to see property transfers for Wyndham here in Vegas.  Now keep in mind they have a few properties here but just from 1/1/16 to 12/31/16 there was 4,377 in deed transfers.  Looking at some of the dollar amounts it gets scary.  Now I can see why the sales people can feed their families.


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## Braindead (Feb 23, 2017)

nicemann said:


> Just because I was a little bored while the kid was still sleeping, figured I would do a quick search on the Clark County Website to see property transfers for Wyndham here in Vegas.  Now keep in mind they have a few properties here but just from 1/1/16 to 12/31/16 there was 4,377 in deed transfers.  Looking at some of the dollar amounts it gets scary.  Now I can see why the sales people can feed their families.


At a quick glance . Was most of the deeds for Desert Blue ?


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## nicemann (Feb 23, 2017)

Braindead said:


> At a quick glance . Was most of the deeds for Desert Blue ?



It just says "WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC" for all of them.  I don't see a way to see what property it is issued from.  Of course that number won't include CWA contracts since they are not recorded as deeds with the county.

Update: I see they list a parcel number when I go into each one.  No way I am going to check them all but looking at over 75, the parcel numbers come back to the address of the Grand Desert.  I checked random months.  Really weird none of the other properties addresses were listed.  Maybe the other locations are only selling CWA or at least a majority.


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## ronparise (Feb 23, 2017)

nicemann said:


> It just says "WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC" for all of them.  I don't see a way to see what property it is issued from.  Of course that number won't include CWA contracts since they are not recorded as deeds with the county.
> 
> Update: I see they list a parcel number when I go into each one.  No way I am going to check them all but looking at over 75, the parcel numbers come back to the address of the Grand Desert.  I checked random months.  Really weird none of the other properties addresses were listed.  Maybe the other locations are only selling CWA or at least a majority.



Whats in CWA is deeds.  I would expect transfers into CWA to be recorded as the deed goes into CWA


Desert Blue ought to have UDI but Im not sure. What I am sure about is that all of wyndham Tropicana is in CWA as whole condo deeds


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## wjappraise (Feb 23, 2017)

bnoble said:


> Sure. I didn't say they were taking _none_ of them. But they have turned down _some._



What have they been turning down?  I have a couple of dogs i would like to divest.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nicemann (Feb 23, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Whats in CWA is deeds.  I would expect transfers into CWA to be recorded as the deed goes into CWA
> 
> 
> Desert Blue ought to have UDI but Im not sure. What I amd sure about is that all of wyndham Tropicana is in CWA as whole condo deeds



I see what you mean about the CWA being recorded as deeds.

Modify Date: 1/21/2016
Record Date: 1/5/2016 8:56 AM
Number of Pages: 7
Book Type: OR
Document Type: (D) DEED
Remarks: TOP MARGIN PAGE 3
Grantor 3200 WEST TWAIN LLC
Grantee WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC
Total Value: $13,611,352.22
Parcel #: 162-17-312-262

So looking up that parcel # that is Desert Blue.  

Modify Date: 7/28/2016
Record Date: 7/6/2016 11:29 AM
Number of Pages: 9
Book Type: OR
Document Type: (D) DEED
Grantor 3200 WEST TWAIN LLC
Grantee WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC
Total Value: $13,329,713.71
Parcel #: 162-17-312-136

6 Months later Desert Blue again.  So good chance that is them moving the the deeds to CWA?

Largest ones for the Grand Desert that did not have an individual name on it.

Modify Date: 2/2/2016
Record Date: 1/20/2016 9:57 AM
Number of Pages: 10
Book Type: OR
Document Type: (D) DEED
Grantor GRAND DESERT RESORT VACATION OWNERS ASSOCIATION INC
Grantee WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC
Total Value: $300,684.38
Parcel #: 162-21-701-004

Modify Date: 6/13/2016
Record Date: 6/13/2016 12:24 PM
Number of Pages: 6
Book Type: OR
Document Type: (D) DEED
Grantor GRAND DESERT RESORT VACATION OWNERS ASSOCIATION INC
Grantee WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS INC
Total Value: $274,272.02
Parcel #: 162-21-701-004


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## ronparise (Feb 23, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> What have they been turning down?  I have a couple of dogs i would like to divest.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I didnt think you were permitted to do any buying or selling yet


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## Ty1on (Feb 23, 2017)

nicemann said:


> I see what you mean about the CWA being recorded as deeds.
> 
> Modify Date: 1/21/2016
> Record Date: 1/5/2016 8:56 AM
> ...



A deedback from the HOA of a foreclosure would look the same, so this is no guarantee they are going into CWA.


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## CO skier (Feb 27, 2017)

happyhopian said:


> I did a spreadsheet that I update frequently and I agree in looking back that there is a seasonal trend over the last two years I did not notice. Right now inventory is also down so that likely has an impact. I bought 800k points @ 2.25 average in November and now those same contracts are north of $5 as much as $10...just crazy right now.


1,136,000 Club Wyndham Access points -- No one interested at $6.60/1000

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wyndham-Poi...810073?hash=item25cf7c26d9:g:msIAAOSwV0RXsiT5

Starting bid reduced to $6.15/1000, if anyone is interested.

I have not seen much CWA sell for below $5/1000 on EBay, but for the "points are points" crowd there are a number of eoy contracts with good maintenance fees and annual contracts selling for $500 and next to nothing, plus closing and transfer.

It is EBay, where Wyndham pricing is all over the map, but there is still a lot of inventory and plenty of bargains.  Do not wait until this summer to buy.


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## Roger830 (Feb 27, 2017)

I have bought and sold numerous model railroad items on ebay over the past 17 years in the $15-$300 range.
Pricing can vary by 50% in the same time period for the exact same items such as railroad freight cars when two bidders fight each other, then a week later there is just one different bidder at the opening bid.

Perhaps CWA pricing for large contracts was high in the past because of perceived low mf and demand by renters that abused the system by stripping the points.


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 27, 2017)

edited ... bad math.


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## ronparise (Feb 27, 2017)

there was a time, when for a couple of months, cwa contracts were selling for nearly $20/1000. That didnt last long; just a couple of months one summer, By that winter prices dropped back down. I was willing to pay more for CWA because I wanted to make arp reservations at La Belle Maison and Avenue Plaza.  I was having trouble finding La Belle Maison UDI and there are no Avenue Plaza UDI. Others sought out CWA for ARP at the Dells. UDI contracts deeded there have a mf much higher than CWA so cwa was the preferred purchase.. If I was bidding against a Dells guy, the bidding could go quite high.

And yes I was willing to pay more because I stripped contracts, (but I was paying all my mf, so wheres the abuse?) and Im sure others were doing the same thing. So we were bidding against each other. Even guys that didnt strip contracts wanted to grow.. so we were all competing with each other.   I firmly believe that there were only a handful of us that pushed the market way up.  Recently however we  have pretty much dropped out of the market because of the uncertainty going forward.  None of us know just how aggressive Wyndham is going to be going after the mega renters. so the market is left to the little guy buying to take his family on vacation

In the time Ive been involved with wyndham, (just over 6 years) Ive seen CWA go in and out of style. 6 years ago no one wanted one of these, because it was new and anything wyndhan does is viewed as a bad thing for the simple fact that wyndham did it. Now it seems CWA is the thing to do because (say what you will about mf) its still about average

As to what wyndham is putting in there and why?.... who cares. Wyndham has their reasons. Perhaps its as simple that the salesmen at National Harbor or Canterbury (both sold out or nearly sold out resorts) need product to sell. so to build up inventory they dump as much as they can into CWA. Conversely, perhaps the salesmen at another resort see a high demand for their udi deeds. I dont know why but folks seem to like owning Bonnet Creek and would buy a udi, but not a CWA  Bottom line I think Wyndham wants to maintain  some of each kind of inventory... UDI and CWA. And dont forget Worldmark.  I know for a fact that at least for a while, Wyndham was putting foreclosed weeks from some of the shared resorts into Worldmark

Yes ovation is probably feeding more higher priced contracts into CWA than lower ones. but the lower ones are still getting in.  I wouldnt compare a seller that get zero for his National Harbor contract , through Ovation to the guy that knows he can get $10/1000 on ebay. Rather Id compare him to the guy that dosent know about the secondary market and who pays a relief company thousands of dollars... Ovation looks pretty good to him..  Ive even offered folks money for their National Harbor or Panama City contracts and been turned down, in favor of ovation because they believe everybody in the timeshare business (including good guys like me) is a crook.


So back to the ops observation... I see prices ticking up too. I blame it on the over correction after the suspensions happened 6 months ago. when  the big buyers dropped out.  The market is commig back and looking for the right price where supply and demand balance out,


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## CO skier (Feb 27, 2017)

ronparise said:


> So back to the ops observation... I see prices ticking up too. I blame it on the over correction after the suspensions happened 6 months ago. when  the big buyers dropped out.  The market is commig back and looking for the right price where supply and demand balance out,


Echoes from 2013.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...ay-sale-up-tick-in-value.198191/#post-1521687


Here are some comparisons between 2013 and 2017 to show how much of a scatter plot these EBay auctions are, and how some bidders might get sucked into a bidding war that drives up the price.

It is also worth noting the the 2013 prices are from before the introduction of Ovation, which was thought would possibly drive up resale prices.


2013


500,000 Smoky Mt … 2175 ($4.35/1000)

1,000,000 Club Wyndham Access … 6228 ($6.23)

301,000 Panama City Beach … $3335 ($11.07/1000)



2017

308,000 Smoky Mt … $1675 ($3.35/1000) 2 bids

769,000 Club Wyndham Access …$ 6228 ($5.79/1000) 1 bid

1,136,000 Club Wyndham Access …$ 6996 ($6.15/1000) reduced listing price, not yet sold

644,000 Club Wyndham Access … $5150 ($8.00/1000) 61 bids, was someone shilling the auction?

405,000 Club Wyndham Access … $2850 ($7.04/1000) 41 bids

320,000 Panama City Beach … $2500 ($7.81/1000) 1 bid, includes free closing


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## MichaelS (Feb 27, 2017)

I'm new to this but trying to sort through what you guys are saying here.  What was the freeze on accounts in August mentioned referring to, and is now a good time to buy?  Also, are my chances high that if I get a lower MF resell will it get snatched up by Wyndham instead?

I'm looking towards the lower end of maybe 154k points


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## ronparise (Feb 27, 2017)

To my knowledge Wyndham doesn't buy off the secondary market so I wouldn't worry about that

Regarding the freeze on accounts. Don't worry about that either but you can read the 70 page thread on the topic if you want. I brought it up on this thread because I think enough of us formerly big buyers are out of the market because of it  And that should keep prices down. Less demand ought to mean lower prices


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## vacationhopeful (Feb 27, 2017)

Really ... 154K contract? Plus the extra cost for the minimum CWA/CWP club fee ($127) add another $54 yearly on top of the MFs. That is only 2 RTs for the entire year (reservation transaction .. what do each additional RT cost now $59 each?)

I would still look at the unit sizes you need in 3+ years ... kids grow and as they get OLDER, kids want to bring friends. You might want to bring an au pair or grandma on some trips. And as they grow, should they be staying in the LR or in their own private bedroom?


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## wjappraise (Feb 27, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I didnt think you were permitted to do any buying or selling yet



You are correct. No change on this front, but planning to divest some if this issue ever gets resolved.  I've grown a bit weary from the experience.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## cayman01 (Mar 3, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> Do we have 100% confirmation that ALL Ovation turnbacks ONLY go into CWA?  Is it conceivable that some are getting turned back simply because the owner has aged out of wanting to pay MF's on a decent UDI/points contract and then WYN flips it for a devloper sale without putting it into CWA?



I would think not as Bali Hai is not part of CWA.


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## ronparise (Mar 3, 2017)

nicemann said:


> Just because I was a little bored while the kid was still sleeping, .



Don't you know when the kid is asleep that's probably the only time you get to sleep.


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## Richelle (Mar 3, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> Really ... 154K contract? Plus the extra cost for the minimum CWA/CWP club fee ($127) add another $54 yearly on top of the MFs. That is only 2 RTs for the entire year (reservation transaction .. what do each additional RT cost now $59 each?)
> 
> I would still look at the unit sizes you need in 3+ years ... kids grow and as they get OLDER, kids want to bring friends. You might want to bring an au pair or grandma on some trips. And as they grow, should they be staying in the LR or in their own private bedroom?



Depending on what they buy, 154k might be good for them. Obviously if they get a resort with high MF, it's not a good deal at all. I think 154k is a good start. We had our 182k contract for about 8 years before I bought my resale, because we were taking extended family with us on vacations. Plus, 154k contract is easier to get rid of then a 77k or 84k. Probably easier then a 500k contract (unless it's a low MF resort which will cost more upfront). I think it's just big enough to be usable depending on how often they travel, where, and what room type they need. If they need more points later on down the road, they can buy another resale contract. Since they are new, they may not know how much they will end up needing in the future. Why buy a large contract that cost more in maintenance fees, just because they might need it in the future? If they don't need it now, why buy it now? Why not save the money on MF and get a 154k resale contract that will give them enough to get started?  If it's not for them, they can dump it here or on eBay, or Ovation if they will take it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ty1on (Mar 3, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> I would think not as Bali Hai is not part of CWA.



Bali Hai is sales gold for Wyndham and will never be in CWA.


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## Richelle (Mar 3, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> Really ... 154K contract? Plus the extra cost for the minimum CWA/CWP club fee ($127) add another $54 yearly on top of the MFs. That is only 2 RTs for the entire year (reservation transaction .. what do each additional RT cost now $59 each?)
> 
> I would still look at the unit sizes you need in 3+ years ... kids grow and as they get OLDER, kids want to bring friends. You might want to bring an au pair or grandma on some trips. And as they grow, should they be staying in the LR or in their own private bedroom?



Oh and I think you are right about the $59 but that's if it's over the phone. If you do it when you make a reservation online it is $30.   I honestly don't see them needing more then 2 RT with a 154k contract, unless they credit pool but even still. When you credit pool, you do it for a one or maybe even two vacations. If you need multiple rooms, you make the reservations on the same day and you only end up using 1. I've never needed to buy more. The only people who need more then that are people who take a bunch of small vacations or people who rent out reservations. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cayman01 (Mar 3, 2017)

Ty1on said:


> Bali Hai is sales gold for Wyndham and will never be in CWA.




Exactly. But at some point you would think they would put some Hawaii stuff in there.


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## JamesN (Mar 3, 2017)

Richelle said:


> Oh and I think you are right about the $59 but that's if it's over the phone. If you do it when you make a reservation online it is $30.   I honestly don't see them needing more then 2 RT with a 154k contract, unless they credit pool but even still. When you credit pool, you do it for a one or maybe even two vacations. If you need multiple rooms, you make the reservations on the same day and you only end up using 1. I've never needed to buy more. The only people who need more then that are people who take a bunch of small vacations or people who rent out reservations.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Dang this system is hard to figure out.  So you are saying if I credit pool my points they will wont credit pool the RT with them????  So if I only if I only get 2 a year based on my points for a year I will have to pay to use these pooled points if I don't make a very long vacation or book them all the same day? Starting to think they have way too many rules!!


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## nicemann (Mar 3, 2017)

JamesN said:


> Dang this system is hard to figure out.  So you are saying if I credit pool my points they will wont credit pool the RT with them????  So if I only if I only get 2 a year based on my points for a year I will have to pay to use these pooled points if I don't make a very long vacation or book them all the same day? Starting to think they have way too many rules!!



Yep that is my understanding also.  I have never pooled my points so someone could correct me.  They will make their money one way or another.


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## Ty1on (Mar 3, 2017)

Correct.


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## dagger1 (Mar 3, 2017)

Ty1on said:


> Bali Hai is sales gold for Wyndham and will never be in CWA.



When I log in and look at resorts available in Hawaii, Wyndham Bali Hai shows availability the first week in December (when we are considering going).  All we have are CWA points...


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## Ty1on (Mar 3, 2017)

That's because you are in the 10 month window.  CWA not having any inventory @ Bali Hai doesn't mean you can't use your CWA to reserve there within the 10 month.


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## cayman01 (Mar 3, 2017)

dagger1 said:


> When I log in and look at resorts available in Hawaii, Wyndham Bali Hai shows availability the first week in December (when we are considering going).  All we have are CWA points...



Points are points at 10 months. Book it if you want it....


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## dagger1 (Mar 3, 2017)

Ty1on said:


> That's because you are in the 10 month window.  CWA not having any inventory @ Bali Hai doesn't mean you can't use your CWA to reserve there within the 10 month.


Thanks, I see now..  There is no ARP for CWA in Hawaii...  Someday maybe I will get educated!!!


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## dagger1 (Mar 3, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> Points are points at 10 months. Book it if you want it....


Gotcha, thanks!!


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## ecwinch (Mar 3, 2017)

Are there any Hawaii properties in CWA? I had heard there was a regulatory issue there.


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## Braindead (Mar 3, 2017)

ecwinch said:


> Are there any Hawaii properties in CWA? I had heard there was a regulatory issue there.


I was told that also. But wondered how Worldmark is allowed. Maybe someone can explain the difference between CWA and Worldmark. I thought they were setup basically under the same principle


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## ecwinch (Mar 3, 2017)

I don't think WM is sold in Hawaii. My understanding is that it is a "foreign timeshare plan" under Hawaii law.


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## Braindead (Mar 3, 2017)

From your understanding. CWA could own a resort in Hawaii but CWA points couldn't be sold in Hawaii? Or am I missing something?


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## bnoble (Mar 3, 2017)

JamesN said:


> Starting to think they have way too many rules!!


I've owned for about a decade. I've been pretty creative with my point usage, and other than credit pooling (which I do nearly every year) I think I've paid one, or maybe two additional fees. It is unlikely that most people using the system for their own travel and doing just a moderate amount of planning will pay more.


----------



## ronparise (Mar 4, 2017)

JamesN said:


> Dang this system is hard to figure out.  So you are saying if I credit pool my points they will wont credit pool the RT with them????  So if I only if I only get 2 a year based on my points for a year I will have to pay to use these pooled points if I don't make a very long vacation or book them all the same day? Starting to think they have way too many rules!!




you are making this way too complicated. You will get your transaction credits every Jan 1, and it dosent matter whether the transaction you do is with Credit pooled points or with regular use year points , each transaction costs one transaction credit.  however you can only be charged 1 per day so it you do one transaction or 10 transactions on a given day it only takes one transaction credit


The rules and procedures are explained on just 6 pages of the directory, pages 337 an 337, 338 and 339, 340 and 341 under  8 headings

1) reservation timelines
2) Reservation Transaction
3)Housekeeping
4)Renting points
5) borrowing points
6) Guest Confirmations
7) Cancellations
8) Credit pool

A few minutes reading these 6 pages , and then reading it again is all you ought to need,  unless you are dumber than me, which I doubt

you can practice a little too, just cancel before  hitting that final 'make reservation' button. And even if you do make the reservation you can always cancel an accidental reservation. That will however be an expensive lesson.. $30 for the transaction


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## ecwinch (Mar 4, 2017)

Braindead said:


> From your understanding. CWA could own a resort in Hawaii but CWA points couldn't be sold in Hawaii? Or am I missing something?



My understanding is that WM can own property in Hawaii because it is not sold on the islands, nor is Worldmark By Wyndham operating in HI.

And that Wyndham will never place Hawaii property into CWA because of the regulatory issues it would create. I can speculate a number of reasons why that might be, but it would just be speculation.


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## Avislo (Mar 4, 2017)

ecwinch said:


> My understanding is that WM can own property in Hawaii because it is not sold on the islands, nor is Worldmark By Wyndham operating in HI.
> 
> And that Wyndham will never place Hawaii property into CWA because of the regulatory issues it would create. I can speculate a number of reasons why that might be, but it would just be speculation.



Wyndham has one resort in HI that inventory was suspended, Beach Villas, that has been resolved.  Worldmark, Club Plus, Shell, and Outrigger have additional resorts their.

Given that units become available at the 10 month point for Club Plus/CWA, it may not be real important if CWA gets their own resorts in HI.


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## cayman01 (Mar 4, 2017)

ronparise said:


> you are making this way too complicated. You will get your transaction credits every Jan 1, and it dosent matter whether the transaction you do is with Credit pooled points or with regular use year points , each transaction costs one transaction credit.  however you can only be charged 1 per day so it you do one transaction or 10 transactions on a given day it only takes one transaction credit
> 
> 
> The rules and procedures are explained on just 6 pages of the directory, pages 337 an 337, 338 and 339, 340 and 341 under  8 headings
> ...


The $30 fee is only if you have no transactions left for the year in your account right?


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## nicemann (Mar 4, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> The $30 fee is only if you have no transactions left for the year in your account right?



That is correct.


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## OutSkiing (Mar 5, 2017)

There is a thing called 'reciprocal ARP' where VIP members can exchange their home resort 1 or 2 times during a year to make reservations 11 months in advance rather than the 10 month mark.  I wonder if this applies in Hawaii?  I doubt that the law about trusts would affect that. I may give this a try in a few months.

Also, there have been other TUGBBS threads on the subject of 'Outrigger Resort Club' which would give owners of certain Hawaii resorts ARP access to a list of additional resorts. The other threads on this subject were not conclusive as to whether you had to purchase directly from the developer to attain this.  I don't think I'll be able to test this because my resale Hawaii ownerships are all Odd year contracts and we are planning a trip for our 10 year anniversary for an even year 2018.  I think we'll be fine booking some of our island hop stays in the 10 month window though.

Bob


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## CO skier (Mar 13, 2017)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-BON...991273?hash=item2a7cc63669:g:-nsAAOSwr~lYnNux

$1500 for 797,000 points deeded at Bonnet Creek, with 630,000 points to use in 2017 and no closing costs only the transfer fee.

$1.88/1000 points is the lowest price I have ever seen for Bonnet Creek.

The bargains are still out there for the those with patience to wait for the right deal, but they might become more difficult to find over the next 6 months.


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## ronparise (Mar 13, 2017)

CO skier said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-BON...991273?hash=item2a7cc63669:g:-nsAAOSwr~lYnNux
> 
> $1500 for 797,000 points deeded at Bonnet Creek, with 630,000 points to use in 2017 and no closing costs only the transfer fee.
> 
> ...



I like to include closing costs and transfer fees in my calculations so I get $2.25/1000 but the point is  the same. Persistence can pay off, Sometimes you get lucky

You say things might be different over the next 6 months.  What are you predicting?


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## dagger1 (Mar 13, 2017)

The MF's at WBC (per this recent eBay sale) seem high, over 9 percent higher than CWA MF's...  Is my math correct, or is WBC one of the higher MF resorts?


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## ronparise (Mar 13, 2017)

dagger1 said:


> The MF's at WBC (per this recent eBay sale) seem high, over 9 percent higher than CWA MF's...  Is my math correct, or is WBC one of the higher MF resorts?


I havent looked at this closely in quite a while.. I owned so many points and my average mf was good enough that a couple of new, high mf contracts didnt move the needle

as I recall Bonnet Creek was always a little more than average, but folks dont seem to care.  For some reason other than ARP or mf, (or for no reason) people like to own at Bonnet Creek.  and if there are two such people looking at the same time, they will bid the price up to what I think are unjustified levels

In the current example, it seems that the opposite occurred;  only one serious bidder


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## dagger1 (Mar 13, 2017)

The $2.25/1000 points sales price was great; but according to my math, which has been faulty in the past, as you know Ron, it would make the annual MF of this WBC contract $454/year higher than CWA's MF for the same amount of points...  It really brings home what you have been saying about high and low MF properties...


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## CO skier (Mar 14, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I like to include closing costs and transfer fees in my calculations so I get $2.25/1000 but the point is  the same.


The closing costs and transfer fees were not included in the 2013 prices that were linked, so I wanted to maintain some kind of apples to apples comparison.  There would also be the complicating factor of trying to cost-out how many currently available points transfer versus when the new owner starts paying the maintenance fees for the current use year.

Using only the sale price makes sense, because the closing costs and transfer fees disproportionately skew $/1000 higher for smaller contracts compared to larger contracts.  It is a similar dilemma when considering whether or not to include the program fee when calculating $/points for maintenance fee comparisons across multiple resorts.  Although the program fee is paid by all Club Wyndham members, it makes for a better comparison to exclude the program fee costs.




ronparise said:


> You say things might be different over the next 6 months.  What are you predicting?


I think past is prologue and resale prices will edge up a little through the summer, as they have the last 6 years, then drop back again by October.  As recently as 2 years ago, Bonnet Creek was regularly selling on EBay for $15-20/1000, but I do not think summer pricing will recover to that level.  Great Smokies Lodge contracts are also selling at attractive prices versus a few years ago.  These contracts might see a few $/1000 increase when prices peak in August.  If that happens and adds a few hundred dollars to the resale prices, buyers can decide if it is the perfect contract for them, and pay a little extra, or wait until prices retreat again in the fall.


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## CO skier (Mar 14, 2017)

dagger1 said:


> The MF's at WBC (per this recent eBay sale) seem high, over 9 percent higher than CWA MF's...


According to the TUG 2017 Wyndham Maintenance Fee Sticky, the 2017 MF for Bonnet Creek is $5.63/1000 and the 2017 Club Wyndham Access MF is $5.60 -- a 0.5% difference.

I do not know what the MF is for CWA or Bonnet Cr, but given conflicting information from EBay versus what is posted in TUG, my trust would be in the TUG information.

Maybe it is the multiple resort ARP, including the Bonnet Creek resort, that gives Club Wyndham Access a resale premium over a deeded Bonnet Creek contract.[/QUOTE]


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## ronparise (Mar 14, 2017)

CO skier said:


> The closing costs and transfer fees were not included in the 2013 prices that were linked, so I wanted to maintain some kind of apples to apples comparison.  There would also be the complicating factor of trying to cost-out how many currently available points transfer versus when the new owner starts paying the maintenance fees for the current use year.
> 
> Using only the sale price makes sense, because the closing costs and transfer fees disproportionately skew $/1000 higher for smaller contracts compared to larger contracts.  It is a similar dilemma when considering whether or not to include the program fee when calculating $/points for maintenance fee comparisons across multiple resorts.  Although the program fee is paid by all Club Wyndham members, it makes for a better comparison to exclude the program fee costs.
> 
> ...




 my reason for including costs is that they are part of my upfront costs. It dosent really make a difference s long as we are consistent..  Perhaps the reason I always include them is that the bill I got for my very first purchase 6 years ago, was not the $1 I bid plus $249 closing costs, but rather $750  I didnt read the ad close enough to realize that I was buying 3 converted fixed weeks, and that I had to pay the  $99 transfer fee and the $150 closing costs for each one.. even so 385000 points and a surprise VIP ownership for $750 turned out to be a pretty good deal


The important thing is that  buyers and  sellers know that these fees have to be paid by someone for every contract. and when comparing one sale to another, its important to compare apples to apples. a $1000 purchase from Sumday. is a whole lot different that a $1000 purchase from Discount timeshares. 


Regarding the summer "bump" in prices;  I know that prices fluctuate and prices have always (at least for the last several years)  gone up in the summer and down in the winter. My question is :  why?


----------



## bnoble (Mar 14, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I know that prices fluctuate and prices have always (at least for the last several years) gone up in the summer and down in the winter.


This seems to be true of nearly every timeshare system, not just Wyndham, and so I suspect there is some seasonal tie either to (a) the decision process people make to say "We should finally dump this thing." and/or (b) the decision process that causes someone to say "Maybe it's time to finally pull the trigger on buying a timeshare."

For weeks paid annually, the Winter drop makes sense: getting that MF bill is a reminder that you've not used the week in years and maybe it is time to sell. that probably doesn't happen for those of us who pay monthly, though. The spring/summer uptick may well be due to the fact that people are starting to think seriously about their vacation habits.


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## dagger1 (Mar 14, 2017)

CO skier said:


> According to the TUG 2017 Wyndham Maintenance Fee Sticky, the 2017 MF for Bonnet Creek is $5.63/1000 and the 2017 Club Wyndham Access MF is $5.60 -- a 0.5% difference.
> 
> I do not know what the MF is for CWA or Bonnet Cr, but given conflicting information from EBay versus what is posted in TUG, my trust would be in the TUG information.
> 
> Maybe it is the multiple resort ARP, including the Bonnet Creek resort, that gives Club Wyndham Access a resale premium over a deeded Bonnet Creek contract.


[/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree.  CWA MF's are $6.15 per thousand all in (what I pay),  and I used the $441.78/month MF quoted by the eBay seller ($6.65/1000).  But, as you pointed out, actual MF's quoted here on TUG are probably more accurate.


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## CO skier (Mar 14, 2017)

ronparise said:


> my reason for including costs is that they are part of my upfront costs. It dosent really make a difference s long as we are consistent..


Well, ... if we want to be consistent, then any contract offered for "free" with two years of future years points missing, but the new owner would be obligated to pay for those missing years of maintenance fees, should be considered on the same basis.  Right?

And the new owner should consider that liability when purchasing.


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## Avislo (Mar 14, 2017)

CO skier said:


> Well, ... if we want to be consistent, then any contract offered for "free" with two years of future years points missing, but the new owner would be obligated to pay for those missing years, should be considered on the same basis.  Right?...



Absolutely.  Hidden costs such as striping a contract of future points then dump are real costs of the purchase..  This would also include other hidden costs that can occur such as problems with title etc. along with a fair market value of the time spent attempting to resolve the issues.  Other threads talk of these types of problems.


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## paxsarah (Mar 15, 2017)

CO skier said:


> Well, ... if we want to be consistent, then any contract offered for "free" with two years of future years points missing, but the new owner would be obligated to pay for those missing years of maintenance fees, should be considered on the same basis.  Right?
> 
> And the new owner should consider that liability when purchasing.



Absolutely, and Ron has specifically stated in other threads that if he's sold a stripped contract he's fully disclosed that information. He's been consistent. What's your point?


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## whitewater (Mar 15, 2017)

paxsarah said:


> Absolutely, and Ron has specifically stated in other threads that if he's sold a stripped contract he's fully disclosed that information. He's been consistent. What's your point?



exactly... 

who cares if he/someone sells a stripped contract so long as its fully disclosed. Then its up to buyer/taker to determine cost/benefit.


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## Avislo (Mar 15, 2017)

CO skier said:


> Well, ... if we want to be consistent, then any contract offered for "free" with two years of future years points missing, but the new owner would be obligated to pay for those missing years of maintenance fees, should be considered on the same basis.  Right?
> 
> And the new owner should consider that liability when purchasing.



Do not think CO skier was referring to people that disclosed how many points were being transferred with the contract and what years and types of points they were.  He used the term "missing points"  this implies that points not being transferred were not disclosed.  These people were not given the opportunity to determine a cost/benefit analysis based on better facts.


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## uscav8r (Mar 15, 2017)

Avislo said:


> Do not think CO skier was referring to people that disclosed how many points were being transferred with the contract and what years and types of points they were.  He used the term "missing points"  this implies that points not being transferred were not disclosed.  These people were not given the opportunity to determine a cost/benefit analysis based on better facts.



You are stepping into a "conversation" that has some long, deep roots regarding TUG Bargain Bin ads. Speculation (yours is wrong) is not your friend in this case.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## happyhopian (Mar 15, 2017)

CO skier said:


> Great Smokies Lodge contracts are also selling at attractive prices versus a few years ago.  These contracts might see a few $/1000 increase when prices peak in August.  If that happens and adds a few hundred dollars to the resale prices, buyers can decide if it is the perfect contract for them, and pay a little extra, or wait until prices retreat again in the fall.



Great Smokies is depressed due to the fires there. I've passed on several good opportunities there but for someone looking for 10 month points it would be an opportunity.

Having started this thread let me jump back in on two points - cost comparisons (apples to apples) and missing points.

Cost comparisons should ALWAYS include the closing cost. I have a spreadsheet I've used for several years detailing every ebay ad I've ever recorded. It has points, auction price, closing costs, transfer fee and published maint fees. Price, transfer and closing are added together and divided against the points, AND then divided by 1,000 to get a base cost per 1,000.

IMPORTANT THAT one MUST include closing/transfer fees to get an actual cost.

Yes a 200k contract looks great at $400 but when you add in $799 in t&c that $1,200 isn't such a great price anymore. I've been tracking these for over 3 years on a weekly basis. I would strongly suggest including t&c or your missing the whole point of estimating. This is why I have no problem walking away from contracts. I know what they sell for and I walk when they get higher than the 12 month average.

As to missing points. I had never experienced this until lately and I ran upon two different instances. I walked on both.

1. Seller listed 700k points. When the auction closed I asked for the Estoppel (always do this before transfering funds regardless of what seller says or demands).. This showed that there were zero points for 2017. Knowing that current transfers are taking about 4 months on cwa, I knew that I could be paying 6 months of fees for no points. The seller kept replying - "well you can use points from 2018" but I could never get them to agree that I would be borrowing what I should own on both years. In the end we all agreed it was just a cost of purchase. I recalculated the cost based on the maint fees paind for no points and it came out at $9.50/1000. I walked obviously.

2. Seller listed 430k points but I was to take over maint fee immediately upon the auction close by prepaying maint fees. This was not disclosed - though it did say buyer would be responsible it did not say upon auction close (until I got the purchase agreement). There were points on the 2017 year available and they argued that I would only be paying for what was going to be mine anyway. I recalculated and my great $3.5/1000 CWA went up another $2/1000. I walked and here's why. There are too many contracts in which the seller covers the maint fees until closing and in fact this is what Wyndham requires. The most important factor here - time. Requiring the seller to pay maint fees until closing ensures a speedy transaction. What I didn't say is that I did this once before when it made sense (and when Wyndham was running about 2 months on cwa transfers). Unfortunately the seller took THREE MONTHS to get the documents to Wyndham. Guess who paid 

To that point. The last contract I purchased was 546 CWA for $2.65/1000. It has all points from 2016 renewing in March/17 and all for 2017. Seller paid closing, transfer and maint. When I signed the purchase agreement I asked the seller to have the remaining 2016 points transferred to rci - and then to MY rci, before they expired. This was done and completed in less than 2 days. As a matter of fact the wholesaler  just sent me their log in information and I did it myself. The contract hasn't finished transferring yet, but when it does I will have all of the 2017 points having only paid 9-10 months of fees PLUS 546 into RCI at no cost to me. AND the seller because of a problem with their documents took a full month to get the documents to Wyndham -- guess who had to pay that extra month of maint fees.

I share this because I want everyone to be a winner. There are LOTS of options. Wyndham contracts will continue to be sold. People will continue to get out and while I know that ovation offers many another alternative, everyone wants to get SOMETHING for their asset, even if its only $1,000 cash in their pocket. That is better than nothing to many. Ovation has reduced the inventory, but not by much in my opinion. Smart buyers can still get below $5/1000 on CWA and if you search hard you can get below $3 but that is hard to find. Just watch the fees - that is critical and blows the whole deal because some sellers place with no cost and get a higher sales price but some list with fees and get a lower sales price...this has to be calculated along with when the points convert, whats available and who's paying maint fee until closing.

Good luck shopping


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## ronparise (Mar 15, 2017)

CO skier said:


> Well, ... if we want to be consistent, then any contract offered for "free" with two years of future years points missing, but the new owner would be obligated to pay for those missing years of maintenance fees, should be considered on the same basis.  Right?
> 
> And the new owner should consider that liability when purchasing.




a buyer should consider everything when analyzing a potential purchase, or comparing one potential purchase against another (at least this buyer does):  upfront costs, deferred costs, financing  costs,  and the ongoing future maintenance fees.  





For those  that dont know. I offered contracts  "for free with two years of future years points missing", on the TUG bargain deals forum. .  I disclosed the details in my offering, and in fact refused to sell to a couple of folks that I thought didnt understand exactly what they were getting into.  But that wasnt enough for CoSkier. He did his best to interfere with my sale,  and was successful.   Tug redefined "bargain"  Now "bargain" means "free"  and ads like mine cant be part of the bargain deals forum.

Good Job   You won...let it go already


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## comicbookman (Mar 15, 2017)

Sorry this is off topic, but is a question on something you said.  how do you transfer points from one RCI account to another?  Feel free to PM me if you want to not muddy this thread.


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## happyhopian (Mar 15, 2017)

comicbookman said:


> Sorry this is off topic, but is a question on something you said.  how do you transfer points from one RCI account to another?  Feel free to PM me if you want to not muddy this thread.



There is no secret. There is no charge for Wyndham owners to transfer points to RCI. Then simply call RCI and transfer points from one account to another and again no charge. It's been this way for three years. As a platinum owner I can credit pool at 90 days but when I purchase contracts too often they come in at the last minute and I have to do something with the point or lose them. I've only used RCI once but I give away the points to friends who want to use them.

Just call RCI's Wyndham owner desk at 800-572-0931


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## comicbookman (Mar 15, 2017)

happyhopian said:


> There is no secret. There is no charge for Wyndham owners to transfer points to RCI. Then simply call RCI and transfer points from one account to another and again no charge. It's been this way for three years. As a platinum owner I can credit pool at 90 days but when I purchase contracts too often they come in at the last minute and I have to do something with the point or lose them. I've only used RCI once but I give away the points to friends who want to use them.
> 
> Just call RCI's Wyndham owner desk at 800-572-0931



Thank you.


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## happyhopian (Mar 15, 2017)

CO skier said:


> Well, ... if we want to be consistent, then any contract offered for "free" with two years of future years points missing, but the new owner would be obligated to pay for those missing years of maintenance fees, should be considered on the same basis.  Right?
> 
> And the new owner should consider that liability when purchasing.



Fella you gotta let this go. 

I love reading your comments and seeing your helpful input on pricing and what is selling for what / where, but this thing between you and Ron has got to stop coming up on every thread. If Ron said black, you'd say white. It's just old and no one cares. As the guy who started this thread for the purpose of giving us 'buyers' a place to come talk about the current market I'm gonna ask you to stop. It's distracting and I'm going to report it as off topic. You two don't like each other but don't piss in my yard please.


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## happyhopian (Mar 15, 2017)

Avislo said:


> Do not think CO skier was referring to people that disclosed how many points were being transferred with the contract and what years and types of points they were.  He used the term "missing points"  this implies that points not being transferred were not disclosed.  These people were not given the opportunity to determine a cost/benefit analysis based on better facts.



According to the guy who offered the deal, he said it was in fact disclosed. I wasn't there and don't care. This thread is about current resales TODAY and what is going on with the prices, a thread I started to help each other out in how the resale market was reacting. If there is a current issue in someone doing this that's awesome to talk about, but kicking someone's arse for something that happened years ago, and for which has been rectified and for which none of the buyers have complained about here, needs to be in another thread . The confusion  you are addressing is exactly why I am asking COSkier to stop. People don't get it.


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## ronparise (Mar 15, 2017)

Back to the topic at hand

Regarding the prices go up in the spring and down in the fall dynamic we have observed in the past; I believe that there is something different this year and it has to do with the suspensions that happened last August 

For the last three years I bought 20 million points a year and I was competing with other big buyers for every purchase. Our bidding, no doubt  drove prices up.  Since the suspensions I haven bought anything and I know several others that haven't either. I believe that since we are out of the market, prices may not go up as much this year as they have in the past

My opinion only


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## TUGBrian (Mar 15, 2017)

please dont derail the thread with off topic arguing...take it to PM.


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## happyhopian (Mar 15, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Back to the topic at hand
> 
> Regarding the prices go up in the spring and down in the fall dynamic we have observed in the past; I believe that there is something different this year and it has to do with the suspensions that happened last August



Prices are up strong since November December. They haven't crossed $10/1k but they are hovering in the $7 on solid CWA. There are some buy it now priced at $10 but they don't sell. When summer comes everyone wants to buy a time share but in the 4th quarter I think we see wholesalers dumping inventory they haven't been able to sell previously. Just my opinion in what I have witnessed and purchased. I talk with Sumday and other sellers to keep in touch. They also call to offer things when they need to sell but that tends to be more in the 4th quarter than the rest of the year and right now they are inventory low according to my last two calls.  I'm a small buyer compared to Ton at 3 million but I've been buying in 200- 400 increments all the way up through resale.


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## CO skier (Mar 17, 2017)

t





happyhopian said:


> Great Smokies is depressed due to the fires there. I've passed on several good opportunities there but for someone looking for 10 month points it would be an opportunity.


Great Smokies was depressed before the fires, just like previously overpriced Bonnet Creek.

That is the beauty of points-based systems.  Wyndham Great Smokies was miles away from the fires and not affected, but contracts there can be purchased at a deep discount, used there for ARP or anywhere within Club Wyndham at 10 months for relatively low maintenance fees.

The relatively low maintenance fees at Great Smokies does little to support the resale price, at this point in time.  There were no fires at Bonnet Creek, but prices there declined, despite relatively low maintenance fees and the cachet of Disney.


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## CO skier (Mar 17, 2017)

happyhopian said:


> Prices are up strong since November December. They haven't crossed $10/1k but they are hovering in the $7 on solid CWA.



http://www.ebay.com/itm/345-000-Clu...107179?hash=item4b108b3aab:g:rX0AAOSwopRYhiaH
$5.14/1000 including all closing and transfer costs.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/340-000-Clu...100043?hash=item4b108b1ecb:g:86MAAOSwNnRYhiP7
$5.29/1000
including all closing and transfer costs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Club-Wyndha...037978?hash=item33c5b0ea5a:g:md0AAOSwZQRYZCj3
$3.91/1000  including all closing and transfer costs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Club-Wyndha...990834?hash=item4b0fa49272:g:4OIAAOSw9GhYc6QU
$5.45/1000  including all closing and transfer costs.

... just a few of examples hovering in the $5/1000 range where they have been for the past couple of years, at this time of year, and down from $10/1000 for CWA four years ago.


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## foundyoubyaccident (Mar 17, 2017)

I just bought a fixed week, can you help me determine my cost?

I paid $25.00

MF's are $755 and some change due 2018

I received a $500.00 gift card.

First use is 2017-they put me on as a guest.


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## scootr5 (Mar 17, 2017)

foundyoubyaccident said:


> I just bought a fixed week, can you help me determine my cost?
> 
> I paid $25.00
> 
> ...



Those costs they are referencing are for points contracts, not fixed week. From the sounds of things, you got the week for nothing, and you can expect to pay about $1200  when you want to get rid of it.


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## ronparise (Mar 17, 2017)

the way I would calculate this is 


+25
-755
-500
|_____________
-1230


the seller received negative $1230 to get rid of his timeshare

to answer your question.... It didnt cost you anything for the ownership with an  included a free vacation. You didnt have an expense, you had an income.  You should declare the $1230 as income on your tax return next year


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## happyhopian (Mar 19, 2017)

CO skier said:


> t
> Great Smokies was depressed before the fires, just like previously overpriced Bonnet Creek.
> 
> That is the beauty of points-based systems.  Wyndham Great Smokies was miles away from the fires and not affected, but contracts there can be purchased at a deep discount, used there for ARP or anywhere within Club Wyndham at 10 months for relatively low maintenance fees.
> ...



I'm just not seeing what you're seeing. Smokies I bid on last year twice went for nearly $5. Missed a big one in December for 1m points selling for about $3 but I wrote it off to the fires. I passed on some since thinking that the prices were down due to the disruption in the area. I agree with you that points are points in 10 months which is why I posted that AND I think (or hope) that everyone here understands that, but there are thousands of folks who do not understand that.

As to BC I just don't see decreases or great flux there. It's been very solid in pricing with some growth. In 2010 I bought 708k @ Bonnet for ~$1800 including closing cost. Last night one just sold @775k for ~$3200 incl CC. The last year's pricing there averages about $4.50/1k higher in the summer, lowest in november. Sometimes a contract will go for $6 but its usually the smaller ones with CC paid for. I would say the market there is stable but I could be wrong.

I'll do some more watching on this property. Thanks for the tip.


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## happyhopian (Mar 19, 2017)

Interesting observation Bonnet Creek listings. Here are the last few annual UY - BC listings over 250k points in the preceding 45 days which sold (all have CC included in the number following auction). Tossing out the highest and lowest they are running around $4/1k which was last year's average too. MF went up this year. I personally think Access is a better use investment but resale of any contract on disney property will always be strong for future exit strategy. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-BON...068744?hash=item2a7d22f288:g:-nsAAOSwr~lYnNux  $3,350 $4.32/1k

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-BON...991273?hash=item2a7cc63669:g:-nsAAOSwr~lYnNux $1,800 $2.58

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-BON...033662?hash=item2a7ade93fe:g:-nsAAOSwr~lYnNux $1,325 $5.11

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wyndham-Poi...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 $2,260 $5.47

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wyndham-Poi...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 $4,795 $9.59 <<<---- stupid buyer FEBRUARY 13th

http://www.ebay.com/itm/500-000-Clu...388761?hash=item58eaadec19:g:tjoAAOSw5cNYRbk4 $750 $1.5 <<<----smartest buyer JANUARY 8th


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## jebloomquist (Mar 19, 2017)

The cost of Wyndham timeshare contracts on ebay can vary by ARP desirability of the property, points in the contract, naiveté of the buyer, and the maintenance fee per 1000 points. The effects of the first three can vary considerably between contracts, but the fourth tends to follow a price versus mf/1000 points demand curve. 

I have created a chart that shows the demand curve for point contracts based upon the maintenance fee per 1000 points. It is not meant to be an estimate of what the actual price will be, but instead just to show the concept. For low MF/1000 points contracts, the price can be high. For high MF/1000 points contracts the price can be low, even to the point where the seller must pay the buy to take the contract.

As the years go by, and maintenance fees increase, the demand curve shifts to the right. Three years ago, I wouldn't look at a contract where the MF/1000 points was over $5.00. Today, when I find one, the price shoots up into the thousands. When you find a sale for $1, I'll bet that the MF/1000 points is at least $7.00.

Once again, the chart is only meant to illustrate a concept.




Jim


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## Railman83 (Mar 20, 2017)

Not for nothing, but this may be one of the coolest charts I've ever seen posted on Tug.




jebloomquist said:


> The cost of Wyndham timeshare contracts on ebay can vary by ARP desirability of the property, points in the contract, naiveté of the buyer, and the maintenance fee per 1000 points. The effects of the first three can vary considerably between contracts, but the fourth tends to follow a price versus mf/1000 points demand curve.
> 
> I have created a chart that shows the demand curve for point contracts based upon the maintenance fee per 1000 points. It is not meant to be an estimate of what the actual price will be, but instead just to show the concept. For low MF/1000 points contracts, the price can be high. For high MF/1000 points contracts the price can be low, even to the point where the seller must pay the buy to take the contract.
> 
> ...


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## ronparise (Mar 20, 2017)

Jim has painted us a picture to tell us what he and others have  been saying for years and that is, there is an inverse relationship between prices and maintenance fees but there is more to it than that. 

There is also (in my opinion) a relationship between vacation rental rates, maintenance fees and price. If fees are less than rentals the timeshare will have value and if fees are more than rentals the timeshare won't have value. How much positive or negative value depends on how great the difference is

I think I missed that day in math class when I should have learned how to graph a third variable.

Jim?

As a practical matter I trust my gut. I do very little analysis. Im not looking for the best price. I'm looking for value, if something will further my goals, I'll buy it with almost no regard for price.


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## jebloomquist (Mar 23, 2017)

Not realizing it, Ron put out a challenge to view timeshare resale prices 3-dimensionally by 1) the maintenance fee/1000 points, plus 2) the value receive from rental returns. I had only alluded to this in my previous submission where I said that ARP was one consideration on resale prices, where I was thinking of the use of points for rentals.

When I tried to put the 3D idea into one chart, it got way too congested, so I am putting forth 4 charts. The first is one where the owner/renter has great properties that can get very high rental prices such as Mardi Gras week. The second is what large owner/renters, as well as Wyndham get for the use of points. The third represents the small time owner/renter. The fourth is the use of the points by regular owners for their own reservations.

In the four charts there are lines coming from 1) rental prices/1000 points $15, $11, $8, and $6 respectively, and 2) maintenance fees/1000 points, $4, $5, $6, $7, $8, and $9. Lines from these two indicators meet and then point towards an estimated resale price for the given owner type, rental price, and maintenance fee combination.

I hope that the images are not too small to be seen, and actually make some sense. As Ron indicated, the resale prices will be much higher if the buyer has some revenue generating use for the points. A normal owner should not be spending big bucks on a resale contract, unless it has ARP value.















Jim


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## metal3240 (Mar 31, 2017)

happyhopian said:


> Great Smokies is depressed due to the fires there. I've passed on several good opportunities there but for someone looking for 10 month points it would be an opportunity.
> 
> Having started this thread let me jump back in on two points - cost comparisons (apples to apples) and missing points.
> 
> ...




Nice info.  Bought two resales on ebay last night for 1st time. Wanted to see if I did a good deal.   Am currently Wyndham owner that has CWA with 274,000 points.  I won two resale auctions last night on ebay.  Both for 105,000 CW plus points at each resort (cypress palms and Shawnee Village) .  One bought for $210.50 and the other bought for $232.50  Seller is paying closing costs and transfer fees and paying maintenance fees until transfer complete.  Maintenance fees are 74/month and 69/month.  If I did the math right I paid about $2/1000 pts and my maintenance fees are about $7/1000 pts.  My WCA maintenance fees are $6.5/1000.  Didn't care about where they were at just wanted the points to be able to get bigger units in prime time.  Recently went to Emerald Grande in Destin and could only go 6 days because not enough points.  Any advice would be great before I complete the transaction.


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## nicemann (Mar 31, 2017)

metal3240 said:


> Nice info.  Bought two resales on ebay last night for 1st time. Wanted to see if I did a good deal.   Am currently Wyndham owner that has CWA with 274,000 points.  I won two resale auctions last night on ebay.  Both for 105,000 CW plus points at each resort (cypress palms and Shawnee Village) .  One bought for $210.50 and the other bought for $232.50  Seller is paying closing costs and transfer fees and paying maintenance fees until transfer complete.  Maintenance fees are 74/month and 69/month.  If I did the math right I paid about $2/1000 pts and my maintenance fees are about $7/1000 pts.  My WCA maintenance fees are $6.5/1000.  Didn't care about where they were at just wanted the points to be able to get bigger units in prime time.  Recently went to Emerald Grande in Destin and could only go 6 days because not enough points.  Any advice would be great before I complete the transaction.



Price paid was good but as you know the maintenance fees are little bit high.  Not everyone likes the smaller contracts, harder to get raid of but if you are going to keep them for a long time it works out.


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## joestein (Mar 31, 2017)

jebloomquist said:


> Not realizing it, Ron put out a challenge to view timeshare resale prices 3-dimensionally by 1) the maintenance fee/1000 points, plus 2) the value receive from rental returns. I had only alluded to this in my previous submission where I said that ARP was one consideration on resale prices, where I was thinking of the use of points for rentals.
> 
> When I tried to put the 3D idea into one chart, it got way too congested, so I am putting forth 4 charts. The first is one where the owner/renter has great properties that can get very high rental prices such as Mardi Gras week. The second is what large owner/renters, as well as Wyndham get for the use of points. The third represents the small time owner/renter. The fourth is the use of the points by regular owners for their own reservations.
> 
> ...



Jim, 

After seeing your graphs, what do you do or did do for a living?

Joe


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 31, 2017)

Shawnee is an older resort ... mostly sold as fixed weeks except the Crestview HOA deeds. Yes, it has multiple deeded HOAs .. building stated in 1975-76 era with the Dupee HOA (RCI code 0001). Wyndham has only run the place for about 10 years. It has a large year-round indoor pool and recreation center. 2 outdoor seasonal pools. 

There are contracts re-sold ... other fixed deeded weeks converted to Wyndham points ... which have GREAT ratios for points to MFs. Best are 189K for about $700 MFs = $3.71 plus CWP fee $.55 = $4.25/1K. Mostly you can find 166K ... which gives you $4.77 per 1,000 of Wyndham points.

This resort is hard to beat ... about 100-125 miles from NYC and Philadelphia metro areas ... major interstate (north/south & east/west) ... year round activities ... multiple ski areas (1000ft vertical), river tubing, water parks (indoor & outdoor). golf courses, underground mine tour, historic Victorian homes & tours, outlet mall shopping, grass skiing, and just plain, sitting on your deck in the woods (watch out for the black bears).


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## CO skier (Mar 31, 2017)

metal3240 said:


> Nice info.  Bought two resales on ebay last night for 1st time. Wanted to see if I did a good deal.   Am currently Wyndham owner that has CWA with 274,000 points.  I won two resale auctions last night on ebay.  Both for 105,000 CW plus points at each resort (cypress palms and Shawnee Village) .  One bought for $210.50 and the other bought for $232.50  Seller is paying closing costs and transfer fees and paying maintenance fees until transfer complete.  Maintenance fees are 74/month and 69/month.  If I did the math right I paid about $2/1000 pts and my maintenance fees are about $7/1000 pts.


If the contracts have January Use Years, include the current year's points, and you do not start paying the maintenance fees until July or August when the transfer is complete, then the seller paid you $1.75-$2/point to take over these contracts.

If either or both of the maintenance fee numbers for the 105k contracts include the program fee, then you did a little better, because you will have a more efficient program fee per point at your new 484,000 points ownership than contracts at 105,000.

These appear to be good deals for you.


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## Avislo (Mar 31, 2017)

CO skier said:


> If the contracts have January Use Years, include the current year's points, and you do not start paying the maintenance fees until July or August when the transfer is complete, then the seller paid you $1.75-$2/point to take over these contracts.
> 
> If either or both of the maintenance fee numbers for the 105k contracts include the program fee, then you did a little better, because you will have a more efficient program fee per point at your new 484,000 points ownership than contracts at 105,000.
> 
> These appear to be good deals for you.



Assuming this years points come with the two contracts for your use.  It may even be a little better if there are credit pool points that come with the contracts and 2018 and 2019 points have not been used.

Shawnee is a very nice resort, you may want to visit it since you will be owning their.  Have not seen any Bears but deer and rabbits are their.  Maybe I will get to see a Bear on one of my visits.  It is rural but their is a Casino or two near by.


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## dagger1 (Mar 31, 2017)

metal3240 said:


> Nice info.  Bought two resales on ebay last night for 1st time. Wanted to see if I did a good deal.   Am currently Wyndham owner that has CWA with 274,000 points.  I won two resale auctions last night on ebay.  Both for 105,000 CW plus points at each resort (cypress palms and Shawnee Village) .  One bought for $210.50 and the other bought for $232.50  Seller is paying closing costs and transfer fees and paying maintenance fees until transfer complete.  Maintenance fees are 74/month and 69/month.  If I did the math right I paid about $2/1000 pts and my maintenance fees are about $7/1000 pts.  My WCA maintenance fees are $6.5/1000.  Didn't care about where they were at just wanted the points to be able to get bigger units in prime time.  Recently went to Emerald Grande in Destin and could only go 6 days because not enough points.  Any advice would be great before I complete the transaction.


I'm a newbie, but it sounds like you got a great deal to me...


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## happyhopian (Apr 2, 2017)

Great deal tonight. 700,000 points sold for $2,000. $2.85 per 1k. This was the best deal of the winter thus far.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/692-000-Ann...732808?hash=item1a28725b48:g:2jYAAOSwsW9Y1wxV


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## happyhopian (Apr 24, 2017)

Anhyone checked on the pricing since the announcement. The things which sold this weekend most seemed to be in line of the $3-5/1k range where they have been. Any thoughts on where this goes?


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## happyhopian (Apr 24, 2017)

update to comments post VIP/ownership changes. Please keep the thread up to date with there being so much anticipation on price changes post ownership changes. Thanks for everyone's help!!

There is ZERO downward movement in the prices over the weekend after the wyndham announcement. That doesn mean there will not be but there isn't as of now. As many know I've been tracking CWA resales for two years. I just ran the weekend CWA sales on ebay and the number are exactly inline and in several cases much higher than the last year's average. Larger contracts generally sell for less per 1k with smaller contracts selling for more $$ per 1k (similar with square footage sales prices on homes). 

To those who are buying I like what Ron said earlier (and it is my buying strategy too) bid what you are willing to pay, win some, lose some but never over pay. I bid $3/1000 on every one. I rarely bid more and I've never bid over $4. I've missed a lot but I've won enough to get 3 million points at an average around $3/1k.

Here are the auctions that closed this weekend and today (only annual CWA which I've been tracking)

105,000 $740 $7.04/1k http://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-CLU...370997?hash=item489bca49f5:g:bi0AAOSw4A5YzCZU

805,000 $4,431 $5.50/1k (incl closing) http://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-CLU...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

154,000 $760 $4.93/1k http://www.ebay.com/itm/154-000-CLU...638823?hash=item41c25b51a7:g:qTYAAOSwpkFY5S3Q

413,000 $2,551 $6,17/1k (incl fee) http://www.ebay.com/itm/413-000-Clu...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

1,000,000 $4,325 (incl fee) $4.32/1k http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-000-000-C...177320?hash=item5b36309468:g:7R0AAOSwe7BW1Ig8


Feel free to review and please post anything I didn't see or corrections. I want us all to be well informed and help each other to NEVER over pay


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## CO skier (May 2, 2017)

This may be the deal of the month.

436,000 CWA  $1725 with no closing costs and current year usage available.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Club-Wyndha...661570?hash=item4402050d02:g:Mx8AAOSwTM5Y6rrn

By the time the deed records, the new owner might pay 5-6 months Maintenance Fees for 436,000 points.  The new owner would have only 2-3 months to use the points by the time the contract transfers, but if they can use them by the end of the Use Year or deposit and use them in RCI, the owner was practically paid to take over the contract.

It is also interesting that most Wyndham timeshares with a reasonable Starting Bid are seeing some bidding interest, now, but are selling not far from the starting bid.


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## ronparise (May 2, 2017)

CO skier said:


> This may be the deal of the month.
> 
> 436,000 CWA  $1725 with no closing costs and current year usage available.
> 
> ...


 If a platinum or gold owner bought it he dosent have to rush to use the 2017 points, he will be able to  push the 2017 points into next year


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## CO skier (May 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> If a platinum or gold owner bought it he dosent have to rush to use the 2017 points, he will be able to  push the 2017 points into next year


Which, other than the additional RCI exchange fee, is about the same as extending the points for 2 years in RCI.

To maintain about the same level of usage, a Platinum owner who relies on cancel/rebook will have to just about double their ownership.  I would think that and the ability to push points forward a year if Deposited to the new Points Pool would create some bidding interest in contracts such as this one.  This contract would put a 1M Platinum owner almost halfway to the new goal for 2M points, and it would not have cost them anything purchase wise.  There would be the additional maintenance fees, of course.


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## ronparise (May 2, 2017)

CO skier said:


> Which, other than the additional RCI exchange fee, is about the same as extending the points for 2 years in RCI.
> 
> To maintain about the same level of usage, a Platinum owner who relies on cancel/rebook will have to just about double their ownership.  I would think that and the ability to push points forward a year if Deposited to the new Points Pool would create some bidding interest in contracts such as this one.  This contract would put a 1M Platinum owner almost halfway to the new goal for 2M points, and it would not have cost them anything purchase wise.  There would be the additional maintenance fees, of course.




You have just described my strategy going forward. Buy contracts that pay for themselves, then sell the contract and do it again


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## johnluyando (May 4, 2017)

Here's a good one!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/222490384971?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## bendadin (May 4, 2017)

johnluyando said:


> Here's a good one!
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/222490384971?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT



I followed that one down to the last second. We chit-chatted about it for awhile.


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## wjappraise (May 4, 2017)

bendadin said:


> I followed that one down to the last second. We chit-chatted about it for awhile.



Was this one of the first resales from Wyndham 45?  What do you figure the original owner lost on this one?  $150,000 or more?  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## bendadin (May 4, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> Was this one of the first resales from Wyndham 45?  What do you figure the original owner lost on this one?  $150,000 or more?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I'd say easily. It was a steal even at $11K.


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## CCdad (May 6, 2017)

bendadin said:


> I'd say easily. It was a steal even at $11K.



Where's the value here other than ARP for a hard to get 2Br Presidential unit on a weekend or holiday? MF's are average and this location is usually available if you're patient. 

I'd prefer lower MF contracts over this one.


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## md8287 (May 6, 2017)

bendadin said:


> I followed that one down to the last second. We chit-chatted about it for awhile.


I was ready to bid on it until the last minute. As I typed my $5.5k bid I was outbid. Lots of late big bids.


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