# Anyone Else Put a Deposit Down on a Tesla Model 3 ?



## VegasBella (Apr 1, 2016)

We put our $1,000 deposit down on a Model 3 yesterday. We went to the Tesla store and did it in person with about 200 others. 

Here's the big reveal that happened last night:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqMJeR1Yvm4&feature=youtu.be

Quick FAQ:
- base price is $35k
- tax credits available for first 200,000 or so is $7500
- Model 3 is going to be about 20% smaller than S
- will go 0 to 60 in 6 seconds 
- autopilot hardware comes standard and the safety aspects will come standard (pay extra to get all the features enabled)
- roof is all glass
- supposedly seats 5 adults comfortably
- ability to use superchargers comes standard
- will get 5 star safety rating in ALL categories
- can fit a 7 foot surfboard inside
- will go at least 215 miles on a full charge

Pictures...
















More details: http://blog.caranddriver.com/the-tesla-model-3-is-here-first-photos-early-details/


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## SMHarman (Apr 1, 2016)

Congratulations. 
Do you fully spec your purchase at this time. Colors / Battery size etc!


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## Ken555 (Apr 1, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> Do you fully spec your purchase at this time. Colors / Battery size etc!




No, you just hand over a fully refundable $1000 to guarantee a place in line. All other details have yet to be announced and will be finalized later during the order process. 

I also dropped $1000 on this...not sure I'll end up buying it, but given the popularity of the earlier models I thought it wise to get a place in line, especially combined with the fact that even all who reserved a space yesterday may not get the $7500 fed tax credit (much less the unknown about a particular State's benefit...for instance, I have no guarantee California will offer a $2500 rebate at time of purchase at this time). I made my reservation right at 7:28 (though they weren't supposed to start until 7:30) online, so curious to find out next year where I am in the list compared to others here who reserved in a Tesla store during the day.

The car looks great. Personally, I have to deal with paying ~$5,000 or so (based on previous tentative quotes) to pull power to my parking space in my condo building...hoping to find a better solution for that before ordering the car.


Sent from my iPad


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## Patri (Apr 1, 2016)

The glass roof is sure different. Looks dark enough to shield a bright sun. If a boulder falls on you, though, you won't get just a dent.
The 0-6 interests you the most, right?
How are the headlights? Only a Prius model got a good grade on them in some study this week.


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## SMHarman (Apr 1, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> No, you just hand over a fully refundable $1000 to guarantee a place in line. All other details have yet to be announced and will be finalized later during the order process.
> 
> I also dropped $1000 on this..
> 
> ...


No supercharger to rock up to nearby?

The design reminds me a lot of the 2001 Saab 9X concept. The turbine wheels are so Saab.


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## Ken555 (Apr 1, 2016)

Patri said:


> The glass roof is sure different. Looks dark enough to shield a bright sun. If a boulder falls on you, though, you won't get just a dent.



How often does this occur? What do you think happens when a "boulder" falls on ?




> The 0-6 interests you the most, right?



It's simply a good indicator that the car can accelerate when needed. It seems the optional dual motor version will be even faster.



> How are the headlights? Only a Prius model got a good grade on them in some study this week.




Very few specs announced yet.


Sent from my iPad


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## Ken555 (Apr 1, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> No supercharger to rock up to nearby?



Currently, the closest is about a 30-45 minute drive from me in good traffic. I wouldn't be surprised if they add another (or two) closer.



> The design reminds me a lot of the 2001 Saab 9X concept. The turbine wheels are so Saab.




Yes, I thought it was similar as well. But, I owned two Saabs and thought they were great!  


Sent from my iPad


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## Ken555 (Apr 1, 2016)

This has a good video of driving in the new car.

http://www.engadget.com/2016/04/01/tesla-model-3-first-drive/


Sent from my iPad


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## Julian926 (Apr 1, 2016)

My mom just put one in.  They told her if doesn't want the Model 3, she could apply the downpayment to another model such as the Model 4S.


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## Passepartout (Apr 1, 2016)

When I showed the Model 3 to my DW, she said she'd been up much of the night mulling it over. I think she's put a deposit on one. No risk, as it's refundable, and I figure one could sell their 'spot in line' if it turns out they don't want to take delivery. By the time they ramp up production in late '17 she'll be about ready to trade the '14 Prius anyway.

Jim


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## Ken555 (Apr 1, 2016)

Passepartout said:


> When I showed the Model 3 to my DW, she said she'd been up much of the night mulling it over. I think she's put a deposit on one. No risk, as it's refundable, and I figure one could sell their 'spot in line' if it turns out they don't want to take delivery. By the time they ramp up production in late '17 she'll be about ready to trade the '14 Prius anyway.
> 
> Jim



Actually, no. See section 4 of the "reservation agreement":



> Model 3 Reservation
> Terms & Conditions
> 1. Model 3 Reservation
> Thank you for placing a Reservation for Model 3. By making your Reservation, you have secured the approximate
> ...


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## Ken555 (Apr 1, 2016)

http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/1/11346916/tesla-model-3-preorder-180000-elon-musk-tweet



> Update 1:24PM ET: Elon Musk says in a tweet that preorders have reached 198,000 and that "the wait time is growing rapidly."


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## Elan (Apr 1, 2016)

Just reserved one.  Will be interesting to see what options are available and how expensive they'll be.

  ETA:  Finally, a car I can work on.


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## Ironwood (Apr 1, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> This has a good video of driving in the new car.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2016/04/01/tesla-model-3-first-drive/
> 
> ...



Fabulous looking machine.   I played the short video clip of the first drive, and thought.....is this ever quiet!  Then realized the sound was off!  Hope you get delivery on time!


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## SMHarman (Apr 1, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> Actually, no. See section 4 of the "reservation agreement":


So set up the deposit on a burner email address.


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## Ken555 (Apr 1, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> So set up the deposit on a burner email address.




Along with a burner name, address, and credit card? Lol


Sent from my iPad


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## SMHarman (Apr 1, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> Along with a burner name, address, and credit card? Lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad


I understand the place in Line is linked to the email address. 

Anyway. You can transfer your spot with permission from Tesla. I know my buddy did this on the model X line with a 100% ROI.


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## Ken555 (Apr 1, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> I understand the place in Line is linked to the email address.
> 
> Anyway. You can transfer your spot with permission from Tesla. I know my buddy did this on the model X line with a 100% ROI.




Good to know. Had no idea or reference until now re their willingness to transfer the spot.


Sent from my iPad


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## pedro47 (Apr 1, 2016)

This new car design has peak my interest.


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## LisaH (Apr 1, 2016)

My husband put down a deposit yesterday as well...


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## Gaozhen (Apr 1, 2016)

I'm in Utah and didn't expect a huge turnout so got in line at the local Tesla service center "only" a couple hours early...and found myself #101 in line. Wow. But yes, I also put down a deposit. Really excited for this car, and have a paid-off car in good enough shape to hopefully tide me over the 1.5-2.5 years before release!


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## Chrispee (Apr 2, 2016)

I put down a deposit too.  I expected a fair bit of hype, but the number of us who have voted with our dollars here is frankly shocking to me!


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## DebBrown (Apr 2, 2016)

You are all a bunch of enablers.  Now DH and I are discussing this even though we don't need another car!


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## SMHarman (Apr 2, 2016)

DebBrown said:


> You are all a bunch of enablers.  Now DH and I are discussing this even though we don't need another car!


But will you need one in late 18 or 19.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 2, 2016)

200,000 people put down deposits? Is that what my news talking heads announced?

Is this a form of CROWD FUNDING for Tesla? .... $200,000,000


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## DebBrown (Apr 2, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> But will you need one in late 18 or 19.



Probably not.  We both have fairly new cars right not that we'd normally keep 10 years or more.


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## krj9999 (Apr 2, 2016)

*Tax credit*

For reference, the $7500 tax credit will phase down/out as follows (if I'm reading the rules correctly):

Once Telsa sells 200,000 qualifying vehicles in the US (including Roadster, Model S, Model X and Model 3 combined) the clock will start on phase down/out.  Tesla has already sold 40k+ qualifying vehicles as of end of 2015, and for arguments sake let say they sell ~40k in 2016 and ~40k in 2017 prior to first delivery of Model 3 unit.  So if they sell unit #200,001 between April 1 and June 30, 2018 that means anyone who has their Tesla delivered by Sept. 30, 2018 would be eligible for the full $7500 credit.  Those delivered between Oct. 1, 2018 and March 31, 2019 would be eligible for a $3750 credit.  And those delivered between April 1, 2019 and Sept. 30, 2019 would be eligible for a $1875 credit, with no credit after that date.


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## Ken555 (Apr 2, 2016)

krj9999 said:


> For reference, the $7500 tax credit will phase down/out as follows (if I'm reading the rules correctly):
> 
> 
> 
> Once Telsa sells 200,000 qualifying vehicles in the US (including Roadster, Model S, Model X and Model 3 combined) the clock will start on phase down/out.  Tesla has already sold 40k+ qualifying vehicles as of end of 2015, and for arguments sake let say they sell ~40k in 2016 and ~40k in 2017 prior to first delivery of Model 3 unit.  So if they sell unit #200,001 between April 1 and June 30, 2018 that means anyone who has their Tesla delivered by Sept. 30, 2018 would be eligible for the full $7500 credit.  Those delivered between Oct. 1, 2018 and March 31, 2019 would be eligible for a $3750 credit.  And those delivered between April 1, 2019 and Sept. 30, 2019 would be eligible for a $1875 credit, with no credit after that date.




I hope you're correct. I read that they already sold ~80,000 so the fed credit might expire sooner. 


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## Ken555 (Apr 2, 2016)

On a related topic, I'm searching for possible solutions to secure a wall charger from use by others. I have a condo and a shared parking garage. I'll be able to install a wall charger for my use but I don't want anyone else to use it, nor take the charging cable. It seems like Tesla's wall charger is meant for private garages where this isn't a concern. I know there are many chargers on the market. If any of you see such a solution please let me know. I'd hate to have to keep the charger cable in the car and connect it each time I want to charge. A lock of some type as a simple deterrent is fine...I'm sure anyone who really wants to steal it will anyway but I certainly don't want others to charge their cars on my dime. 

Thanks!


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## Fauxqui (Apr 2, 2016)

Yup!


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## dlca1 (Apr 2, 2016)

I put down a deposit for two tesla 3's (for wife and myself). Expected a small line, but not the huge crowd. Some people had camped out. Overheard a security guard telling people that some arguments broke out. Some people in line went home to rest/shower and came back 6 hours later expecting to get their spot back.

I previously had put down a deposit for the X as well, so they invited us to some event at their factory.  I had a chance to test drive the tesla p90d X model (with ludicrous mode) and get a factory tour. Very impressive factory. The test drive was even better. They encouraged you to floor it. That thing goes 0-60 in 3.x seconds!  

Tesla did allow you to sell/transfer the X reservation. However they have specifically changed it so the 3 reservation(s)must be delivered to the address on the reservation. Glad to see that so opportunists can't reserve a car with sole intention of reselling it.


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## VegasBella (Apr 2, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> I have a condo and a shared parking garage.



If I were you I would try to get the condo HOA to install some charging stations. The Tesla website says this currently:
"Qualified properties will receive their first two Tesla wall connectors free of charge as long as they are installed in visible or convenient locations."
https://www.teslamotors.com/destination-charging

Failing that I think I would have the charging unit installed inside an electrical box and keep a lock on it.


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## SMHarman (Apr 2, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> On a related topic, I'm searching for possible solutions to secure a wall charger from use by others. I have a condo and a shared parking garage. I'll be able to install a wall charger for my use but I don't want anyone else to use it, nor take the charging cable. It seems like Tesla's wall charger is meant for private garages where this isn't a concern. I know there are many chargers on the market. If any of you see such a solution please let me know. I'd hate to have to keep the charger cable in the car and connect it each time I want to charge. A lock of some type as a simple deterrent is fine...I'm sure anyone who really wants to steal it will anyway but I certainly don't want others to charge their cars on my dime.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ...


Surely you would put the charger and cable in a electrical wall box.

https://www.google.com/search?site=...taUjTao#tbm=isch&q=large+electrical+meter+box.


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 2, 2016)

Telsa seriously underestimated Model 3 Demand - by Jon Fingas/ Latest in Gear/ engadget/ engadget.com

"Elon Musk says orders for the EV are more than twice as large as expected.

It won't shock you to hear that Tesla low-balled demand for the Model 3, but by how much? Er... quite a bit, actually. Elon Musk has revealed that his company expected "1/4 to 1/2" of the pre-orders it got (252,000 worldwide as of this writing) for its first semi-affordable electric car. While he'd expected lineups at Tesla stores, he figured that there would be "maybe 20-30 people" in queue at a given shop -- not the hundreds that showed up at some places. As a token of appreciation, Tesla plans to give those in-person customers an extra reward on top of what every pre-order customer will get..."

Richard


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## Ken555 (Apr 2, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> Surely you would put the charger and cable in a electrical wall box.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?site=...taUjTao#tbm=isch&q=large+electrical+meter+box.




Yes, something like that might work. I'd rather just have a lockable charger, where the cable is secure but can't be used without a key, etc. I'll be asking a few installers what they suggest.


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## Ken555 (Apr 2, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> If I were you I would try to get the condo HOA to install some charging stations. The Tesla website says this currently:
> 
> "Qualified properties will receive their first two Tesla wall connectors free of charge as long as they are installed in visible or convenient locations."
> 
> ...




Destination chargers are for public use, primarily for retail businesses from what I understand. I highly doubt a private association parking lot qualifies.


Sent from my iPad


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## Ken555 (Apr 2, 2016)

Seems like there's a lot on this topic of HOA and EV charging, options, etc. In 2012 California covered this issue directly, voiding any prohibition against the installation of EV chargers, and even has a solution for using non-exclusive use common area for charging when installation costs are unreasonably high. I'll be looking into this for myself, since my exclusive use parking spaces are the furthest (lowest level and across the parking lot) from the electrical room while there are existing visitor parking spaces directly next to the electrical room.

For reference: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201120120SB880


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## momeason (Apr 3, 2016)

I also put down a deposit for a reservation. Hoping my 2006 Prius with a refurbished replacement battery will hold out 2 more years for me to get my Tesla Model 3.


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 3, 2016)

Telsa Is About to Face the Biggest Challenge in Its History - by Matthew DeBord/ Finance/ Business Insider/ businessinsider.com

"Tesla has every right to celebrate.

Last week in Los Angeles, CEO Elon Musk presided over the unveiling of the electric-car maker's wildly anticipated mass-market car, the Model 3.

I was there, and the Model 3 looks sharp, although I'm less enthused about its design than I was when it was first rolled out and was given a short test drive.

Of course, cars for the masses aren't supposed to be insanely eye-catching. And clearly the Model 3's actual aesthetics don't matter: over 100,000 people plunked down pre-orders last Thursday, at $1,000 a pop, before they had any idea what the car looked like.

After the Model 3 was revealed, that number climbed to nearly 200,000. For the record, that's four times the total number of vehicles Tesla delivered in 2015 — and roughly twice the total number of electric cars sold in all of last year.

So, bravo Tesla! Except there's a small issue to deal with ...

Tesla now has to build those cars...."

Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 3, 2016)

Telsa Model 3 Electric Car Orders Accelerate to 250,000 - from BBC News/ Business/ bbc.com

"Tesla founder and chief executive Elon Musk says pre-orders of the firm's much-anticipated Model 3 electric car have passed the 250,000 mark.

The California-based firm unveiled the five-seater car - its lowest-cost vehicle to date - on Thursday.

Mr Musk tweeted he would give further updates on Sunday and Wednesday..."





Tesla
Image caption Mr Musk has tweeted design sketches of the Model 3 


Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 3, 2016)

Telsa Should Raise Money Now - by Chuck Jones/ Forbes/ Investing/ forbes.com

"Tesla is blowing away most expectations on how many Model 3’s would be ordered with many looking for 100,000 (I was at 200,000). The latest tweet from Elon Musk was 253,000 as of Saturday morning with another update coming tonight and the last one on Wednesday, a week after orders were first taken. (Note: I have ordered a Model 3).

Tesla wrote in its shareholder letter “We expect to generate positive net cash flow and achieve non-GAAP profitability for the full-year 2016. Thus our cash balance at the end of 2016 should increase from the year end 2015 level. We plan to fund about $1.5 billion in capital expenditures without accessing any outside capital other than our existing sources that support our leasing and finished goods inventory.”..."

http://specials-images.forbesimg.com/imageserve/4b268de09a994afa97485fab54dfc112/960x0.jpg?fit=scale
Tesla Motors unveils the new lower-priced Model 3. (AP Photo/Justin Pritchard)

Richard


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## Ken555 (Apr 3, 2016)

MULTIZ321 said:


> Telsa Should Raise Money Now - by Chuck Jones/ Forbes/ Investing/ forbes.com




This is one of the first articles I've read that mention Apple. Many are wondering what they are considering. I suspect that if Apple announces a car before the Tesla 3 preorders are ready to commit, many will switch to Apple (assuming they have a similarly priced car with similar features). This has to be a risk to Tesla, though probably not as great as other existing EV car manufacturers (for instance, I wouldn't be surprised to find that the price for the Bolt suddenly decreases in the next year).


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## classiclincoln (Apr 3, 2016)

I fell in love with Tesla when they came out with the Roadster back in 2008 (?).  Still think that is the best looking one of them all.  The lease on my C-Max is up in April, 2017 and that's when I'll look at leasing one.  While I'm not in love with the design of either the S or 3, I was taken for a ride in an S and took an S   dual motor for a test drive.  The X isn't bad looking, but I really like the Roadster.  The 215 miles per charge is nice, but I think I'd rather have 265.

Keep parking my C-Max next to a tree so maybe it will fall on it and I can get out of the lease early to get my Tesla sooner...


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 3, 2016)

Telsa Model 3 Orders Surpass $10 Billion - by Blaise Zerega/ Elon Musk/ Model 3/ Telsa/ Telsa Motors/ Venture Beat (VB)/ venturebeat.com

'Today, the Tesla Motors CEO tweeted that his company had received 276,000 orders for the Model 3 at the end of day on Saturday April 2, 2016. Earlier that day, Musk reported orders reaching 253,000 orders in the first 36 hours, which when delivered, would mean more than $10 billion in revenue.

The feverish demand for the Model 3 has been compared to people waiting in line for a new iPhone and seems to have caught everyone off guard. This all electric sports car is intended for the mainstream with a base price of $35,000 and a range of 200 miles.To place an order, or pre-order, people need to register and pay a $1,000 refundable deposit for a vehicle that will ship sometime next year. (The average selling price will likely be $42,000.) Describing the massive number of pre-orders, Musk expressed his gratitude and delight on Twitter: “Token of appreciation for those who lined up coming via mail. Thought maybe 20-30 people per store would line up, not 800. Gifts on order.”..."


Richard


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## Elan (Apr 3, 2016)

classiclincoln said:


> I fell in love with Tesla when they came out with the Roadster back in 2008 (?).  Still think that is the best looking one of them all.  The lease on my C-Max is up in April, 2017 and that's when I'll look at leasing one.  While I'm not in love with the design of either the S or 3, I was taken for a ride in an S and took an S   dual motor for a test drive.  The X isn't bad looking, but I really like the Roadster.  The 215 miles per charge is nice, but I think I'd rather have 265.
> 
> Keep parking my C-Max next to a tree so maybe it will fall on it and I can get out of the lease early to get my Tesla sooner...


The Tesla Roadster used Lotus supplied gliders based off the Lotus Elise.  Not surprising that it is the best looking design thus far.  But a roadster will always have limited market appeal.  

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## DeniseM (Apr 3, 2016)

They are building the Tesla Gigafactory, (battery factory) in the desert just East of Reno.  This is a huge boon for the economy of the region.  During the last economic down-turn, Reno was very hard hit and had a high foreclosure rate.

Some things I found interesting:

-The Gigafactory will have the largest footprint of any building in the world - 5.5 million Sq.Ft.
-It will eventually employ 6,500 people.
-About 900 construction workers are building it.
-It is going to be primarily solar and wind powered.
-Tesla is essentially paying no state/local taxes for 10 years, except 7.5 million per year to the local school district, to accommodate the needs of the families who are expected to move into the area.






https://www.teslamotors.com/gigafactory


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## Elan (Apr 4, 2016)

Will be interesting to see what GM does with Bolt pricing.  They've got a huge advantage on Tesla in that the Bolt can be sold for little or even no profit and not really impact GM financially.  Tesla needs to make money on the 3.  Furthermore, I anticipate that the 3 will cut into sales of the S, which will further impact Tesla's bottom line.  Tesla needs a $45k 1/2 ton pickup in it's stable.


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## Passepartout (Apr 4, 2016)

[deleted- duplicate]


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## Passepartout (Apr 4, 2016)

Elan said:


> Tesla needs a $45k 1/2 ton pickup in it's stable.



Like the '17 El Camino?


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## VegasBella (Apr 4, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> Destination chargers are for public use, primarily for retail businesses from what I understand. I highly doubt a private association parking lot qualifies.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad



Yes, just depends on your condo. I don't know where you live or what it's like. I was just throwing that out there. Many condos do include some amount of public parking or perhaps a deal could be made where the HOA pays half and Tesla pays half, I don't know....


Anyway, here's another resource to help
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_charging_multi.html


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## Elan (Apr 4, 2016)

Passepartout said:


> Like the '17 El Camino?



  Needs a lift kit, some mud on it, and a 4-wheeler in the back. Oh, and a light bar.


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## Ken555 (Apr 4, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> Yes, just depends on your condo. I don't know where you live or what it's like. I was just throwing that out there. Many condos do include some amount of public parking or perhaps a deal could be made where the HOA pays half and Tesla pays half, I don't know....
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Yes, thanks. It's clear this will require some research before determining the best method for the building, then likely lots of discussion, then lots of money (though hopefully not).


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## x3 skier (Apr 4, 2016)

Elan said:


> Needs a lift kit, some mud on it, and a 4-wheeler in the back. Oh, and a light bar.



Don't forget the gun rack. 

Cheers


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## x3 skier (Apr 4, 2016)

MULTIZ321 said:


> Telsa Should Raise Money Now - by Chuck Jones/ Forbes/ Investing/ forbes.com
> 
> "Tesla is blowing away most expectations on how many Model 3’s would be ordered with many looking for 100,000 (I was at 200,000). The latest tweet from Elon Musk was 253,000 as of Saturday morning with another update coming tonight and the last one on Wednesday, a week after orders were first taken. (Note: I have ordered a Model 3).
> 
> ...



Sounds like he can define profitability anyway he wants. 

Still it's nice to have that much cash flow for a promise. Good looking vehicle but impractical for me since I drive 700-800 miles in a day several times a year.

Cheers


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## Elan (Apr 4, 2016)

x3 skier said:


> Don't forget the gun rack.
> 
> Cheers



  Good point!


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## Elan (Apr 4, 2016)

x3 skier said:


> Good looking vehicle but impractical for me since I drive 700-800 miles in a day several times a year.
> 
> Cheers



  Agreed.  If the range isn't improved either natively or via a reasonably priced battery option by the production date, I'm not interested.


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## DeniseM (Apr 4, 2016)

True Story:  I was talking to my stock broker on Friday, and he was debating about putting a deposit on a Tesla, or buying an expensive Ski Resort timeshare.  

After I told him about the resale market and sent him a link to TUG, I suspect he's going to do both.


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## Ken555 (Apr 4, 2016)

Elan said:


> Agreed.  If the range isn't improved either natively or via a reasonably priced battery option by the production date, I'm not interested.




You don't expect the supercharger network to assist with long drives?


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## Ken555 (Apr 4, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> True Story:  I was talking to my stock broker on Friday, and he was debating about putting a deposit on a Tesla, or buying an expensive Ski Resort timeshare.
> 
> 
> 
> After I told him about the resale market and sent him a link to TUG, I suspect he's going to do both.





Bonus points for Denise.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 4, 2016)

Elan said:


> Agreed.  If the range isn't improved either natively or via a reasonably priced battery option by the production date, I'm not interested.





DeniseM said:


> True Story:  I was talking to my stock broker on Friday, and he was debating about putting a deposit on a Tesla, or buying an expensive Ski Resort timeshare.
> 
> After I told him about the resale market and sent him a link to TUG, I suspect he's going to do both.



Denise, 
Was your stock broker going to drive his new Tesla to the expensive ski resort? Remind him to ONLY buy if the condo or timeshare has a charging station for the Tesla.


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## DeniseM (Apr 4, 2016)

vacationhopeful said:


> Denise,
> Was your stock broker going to drive his new Tesla to the expensive ski resort? Remind him to ONLY buy if the condo or timeshare has a charging station for the Tesla.



Don't think so - he is in CA, and the TS is in CO.


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## VegasBella (Apr 5, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> You don't expect the supercharger network to assist with long drives?



In my experience, people who cite long drives as an objection don't understand the supercharging network. 

They don't know that there are plenty of Tesla supercharging stations set up around the country that can recharge the car in about 30 minutes. 

They also don't know about the CHAdeMO adapter Tesla sells that makes other high power charging stations available for use for Tesla cars. Nor have they heard the rumors about how Model 3 may be coming with capability to use either charger without an adapter. 

Map of Tesla Supercharging stations:
https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Map of EV charging stations: http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html


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## Passepartout (Apr 5, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> .
> 
> Map of Tesla Supercharging stations:
> https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
> ...



While this may be the fact in many more populous areas of the country, out here in the wide-open West, they're few and far between. We have one public Tesla Supercharger station here (with 6 stalls), then going in any direction it's between 150 and 200 miles to the next one. Making the 400+ miles to Portland or 500 to Seattle will require 2-3 fairly lengthy stops adding between 2-3 hours to an already long travel day. Travel from here to Ls Vegas becomes a hundred miles further because there are simply no charging stations on the most direct route. Those much touted 30 minute stops only give you a 60-80% charge. To get max range it's at least a full hour- on a new battery- and those times will get longer and the batteries age. Not counting waiting for a vacant stall while some other Tesla (Or Bolt or Leaf, or ??) owner leaves his/her car on a charger and goes to the mall.

I think they're nice cars and certainly attractive, but from a practical standpoint, at this time full electric cars are a novelty, best used as out-and-back commuters. This will change as range increases and chargers become more ubiquitous, but I'll let someone else be the pioneer.

Jim


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## PigsDad (Apr 5, 2016)

Well said, Jim.  The "network" is pretty useless here in the Midwest as well.  There are no stations across the state of Nebraska, nor any in North Dakota or in the areas of Minnesota where we take long road trips at least once a year.  Here in Colorado, unless you are on one of the two interstates, you are out of luck.

As for the 30-minute charge, what happens when there are more people than charging stations at a given station?  You mean I have to wait up to 30 minutes (or longer if there is a queue) for someone to finish their charge?  Yikes.

The Tesla looks great for a commuter car, but there is a long way to go before it can fully replace the main family vehicle.

Kurt


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## Quadmaniac (Apr 5, 2016)

If the long road trips longer than 200 miles are once or twice a year, would it not be an option to rent a car, which seems to be in the range of $200 per week depending where you are, be an acceptable option to make this a viable prospect if the majority of your driving is less than 200 miles per day ? If it is on a more regular basis like every month, it does increase the cost, but from what I understand of the cost savings of charging the vehicle vs paying for gas, I think you might be ahead. I didn't realize charging up was so cheap.


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## VegasBella (Apr 5, 2016)

At the Model 3 reveal, Musk said Tesla will double the number of Supercharging stations over the next year.





Passepartout said:


> I think they're nice cars and certainly attractive, but from a practical standpoint, at this time full electric cars are a novelty, best used as out-and-back commuters. This will change as range increases and chargers become more ubiquitous, but I'll let someone else be the pioneer.
> 
> Jim


With all due respect, the average person drives no more than 60 miles per day. Your specific use of driving 400+ miles on a very regular basis is NOT average. And your claim that EVs are merely "novelties" and aren't "practical" is complete BS. They are very practical for average drivers. 

*The pioneers have already gone out and come back.* This is the second wave.  





Already, before the Model 3 comes out, 3% of new cars sold in California were electric, 22% in Norway. Currently, there are over 200,000 EVs in CA and there are nearly 300,000 reservations for Model 3 worldwide. 

But yes, they're not for everyone just yet. Like the iphone when it first came out people felt like it was a "novelty" and wasn't "practical" and was just a toy for rich kids, but now virtually everyone has a smart phone. EVs are going to be like that very soon. This Model 3 is a major wave - a big sign of things to come. If all goes fairly well then this marks the beginning of a major shift in transportation in the US.


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## Chrispee (Apr 5, 2016)

I agree with Jim's sentiments, and I probably wouldn't have my order in if I weren't an urban commuter with a spouse who drives an ICE vehicle that can be used for roadtrips.  There are certainly enough of us to blaze the trail for tesla and EVs in general.

Speaking for myself, I was just thrilled to finally have an affordable performance oriented EV option that doesn't look like a toaster oven.


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## Passepartout (Apr 5, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> [_snipped for brevity_]At the Model 3 reveal, Musk said Tesla will double the number of Supercharging stations over the next year.
> 
> With all due respect, the average person drives no more than 60 miles per day. Your specific use of driving 400+ miles on a very regular basis is NOT average. And your claim that EVs are merely "novelties" and aren't "practical" is complete BS. They are very practical for average drivers.
> 
> But yes, they're not for everyone just yet. This Model 3 is a major wave - a big sign of things to come. If all goes fairly well then this marks the beginning of a major shift in transportation in the US.



Glad to see a doubling, then hopefully redoubling again of charging stations. That's what it will take to make EVs the 'everyman's car'.

There was no doubt, back in 1998 with the first Prius appeared, that hybrids were simply a bridge between a world where family transportation was virtually all by internal combustion engine and a time when electricity- derived from a variety of sources- will be the norm. Back before the beginning of the 20th century, electric vehicles were in the majority. Internal combustion engines were troublesome affairs, noisy, leaky messes, while relatively small shops with few workers could turn out hand wrapped coils for electric motors and there is no magic in a lead-acid battery. It took World War One to 'perfect' the gasoline engine and set up a network for distribution of gasoline. Previously, it had been sold in glass bottles shipped from primitive refiners to wealthy 'horseless carriage' hobbyists. .

Toyota could have derailed the introduction of hybrids by putting 4 gallon gas tanks in their first hybrid models. Those would give a Prius about the same range as a shiny new Tesla.

Fortunately they put in a tank big enough to provide range similar to other vehicles in the market.

Jim


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## Elan (Apr 5, 2016)

I'm as big of proponent of EV's as anyone, but I don't want the restriction of 200mi range.  The number and location of gas stations in the US is not a coincidence.   Numerous rural towns have been started around a needed gas station.  

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Ken555 (Apr 5, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> In my experience, people who cite long drives as an objection don't understand the supercharging network.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Absolutely agree, well said. Of course, as others stated, it's not prevalent everywhere...especially in low pop regions...but that will change in time.


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## Passepartout (Apr 5, 2016)

Elan said:


> I'm as big of proponent of EV's as anyone, but I don't want the restriction of 200mi range.  The number and location of gas stations in the US is not a coincidence.   Numerous rural towns have been started around a needed gas station.



It goes back even further than that, Jim. A heckuva lot of towns in the west grew up around a well (or stream) and water tower needed to 'water' the early steam locomotives. They, too, only had about a 100 mile range on a load of water. They could carry more wood or coal to burn, but the water was exhausted after the steam did it's work.


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## Brett (Apr 5, 2016)

x3 skier said:


> Sounds like he can define profitability anyway he wants.



yes, Tesla has been losing money every year for over a decade
oil prices have declined for the past several years

perfect profit scenario for an expensive electric car !


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## Elan (Apr 5, 2016)

Passepartout said:


> It goes back even further than that, Jim. A heckuva lot of towns in the west grew up around a well (or stream) and water tower needed to 'water' the early steam locomotives. They, too, only had about a 100 mile range on a load of water. They could carry more wood or coal to burn, but the water was exhausted after the steam did it's work.


Good point.  

I think those that don't live in the wild west like we do just can't understand.  I can't come close to doing a Sunday drive to Stanley or even McCall with a 200 mile range.  When will Stanley get a supercharger?   

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## x3 skier (Apr 5, 2016)

Elan said:


> Good point.
> 
> I think those that don't live in the wild west like we do just can't understand.  I can't come close to doing a Sunday drive to Stanley or even McCall with a 200 mile range.  When will Stanley get a supercharger?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk



I'm with both of you. Nice car but as I said, not practical for me. Today I drove 500 miles as part of my annual journey back from Steamboat Springs CO to OH. Tomorrow it's another 400 to visit an aircraft engine company about an engine for my plane(s). All told, about 1800 mile circuitous route in a week with nary a supercharger station in sight.

Cheers


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## Elan (Apr 5, 2016)

For the record, there's not a supercharger on either map between my house and our timeshare which we drive to annually -- about a 5.5 hour drive.  And on my preferred route, which is much more scenic than the alternative, I can't foresee there being one any time soon.  

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## sun&fun (Apr 6, 2016)

I'll keep my Extended Range Electric Volt for a few more years to see what develops with Tesla. Loving my Volt. with 91 mpg combined and and $24 in gas since Dec. 2015. Maybe a companion Bolt to come soon?


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## SMHarman (Apr 6, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> In my experience, people who cite long drives as an objection don't understand the supercharging network.
> 
> They don't know that there are plenty of Tesla supercharging stations set up around the country that can recharge the car in about 30 minutes.
> 
> ...


I looked at how this would map out on the NYC Toronto drive I did last weekend. 

1. Off my preferred route 17 and on to the interstates. 
2. It would add 2 additional 30 min stops 
3. Overnight in Niagra. Charging is scarce. 

All in it was possible but we would be budgeting another couple of hours each way. 

Now that's today. In 2018 I believe it will be the same journey.  Cracker Barrel should add Supercharges in their lots. A full circle from gas stations with a CB to stand alone to EV rest stops. 

Did you see the Christmas backups at that one Cali supercharger. 4 hours!!

http://www.hybridcars.com/tesla-owners-experience-two-hour-delays-at-tejon-ranch-supercharger/


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## Elan (Apr 6, 2016)

Turns out that most of us actually _do_ have a pretty good understanding of the supercharging network.  

ETA:  I had read the following road trip report prior to posting anything here regarding range limitations.  I would encourage everyone to read it to get a feel for what a 1200mi
road trip in an EV is like.  Keep in mind that this guy lives in an area where superchargers/chargers are far more commonplace than they are around here.  

http://www.andrewconnell.com/blog/two-months-with-a-tesla-model-s-85d-our-first-1-200-mile-road-trip


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## Ken555 (Apr 6, 2016)

Elan said:


> Turns out that most of us actually _do_ have a pretty good understanding of the supercharging network.
> 
> ETA:  I had read the following road trip report prior to posting anything here regarding range limitations.  I would encourage everyone to read it to get a feel for what a 1200mi
> road trip in an EV is like.  Keep in mind that this guy lives in an area where superchargers/chargers are far more commonplace than they are around here.
> ...





Great link.

I don't doubt superchargers and other publicly accessible chargers will become even more commonplace as time goes on. However, as with most things, one solution won't fit all scenarios. It's likely your area (and other similar areas) will be among the last to benefit from owning an electric car. Knowing the limitations of the technology and availability is key to deciding if this is appropriate for you or not. That doesn't mean it's a bad solution. 

For myself, with the vast majority of my driving in the city, an electric car has been on my list for a long time. And I suspect the supercharger network would work very well for me for the few road trips I take each year. That said, I have at least ~18 months, if not longer, to decide to keep or sell my ICE BMW, which I think is a great car...and will be hard for me to sell.


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## SMHarman (Apr 6, 2016)

You need some form of a supercharger network for city owning Tesla drivers anyway. 
Destination charging at garages is way slower and will require significant power feed upgrades at Parking structures. 
A few supercharger sites in NYC and similar cities will allow owners to get out of town without filling / charging 30 m into their journey. 
Us city dwellers living in converted brownstones and apartment without parking are ICE bound at the moment.


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## Elan (Apr 6, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> Great link.
> 
> I don't doubt superchargers and other publicly accessible chargers will become even more commonplace as time goes on. However, as with most things, one solution won't fit all scenarios. It's likely your area (and other similar areas) will be among the last to benefit from owning an electric car. Knowing the limitations of the technology and availability is key to deciding if this is appropriate for you or not. That doesn't mean it's a bad solution.
> 
> For myself, with the vast majority of my driving in the city, an electric car has been on my list for a long time. And I suspect the supercharger network would work very well for me for the few road trips I take each year. That said, I have at least ~18 months, if not longer, to decide to keep or sell my ICE BMW, which I think is a great car...and will be hard for me to sell.



  I've never stated that EV's are not a good idea.  As you know, I am an electronics engineer, so all things electric are inherently appealing to me.  Being a Lotus owner, I've followed Tesla since they began sourcing from Lotus.  

  Obviously, things will be different by the time the 3 comes out.  That's why I put a deposit on one.  Having said that, doubling or even tripling the number of superchargers is likely insignificant.  For anyone that can't understand why, they should contemplate what a map of gas stations in the US would look like overlaid with the supercharger map.  Furthermore, there are no assurances that the additional superchargers will fill distance gaps.  Many might be placed near existing units to alleviate capacity issues.  TBD. 

  Bottom line is that the range limitation is real and significant.  Anyone who reads the linked road trip report, which is written in a favorable light, will quickly come to that realization.  Having to locate and possibly share (at 50% capacity) chargers, rent cars to go to remote areas and, worst of all, eat at Cracker Barrel  are all major drawbacks.


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## VegasBella (Apr 6, 2016)

Elan said:


> I would encourage everyone to read it to get a feel for what a 1200mi
> road trip in an EV is like.



I don't take 1200 mile road trips with any sort of regularity. I may have taken 2 of those in my lifetime, both using rental vehicles (RV one time and Jeep the other). Pretty sure most people don't drive that much either. So it's really not a valid criticism. It might be a reason_ for you_, but it's kind of crazy to expect any vehicle to go 1200 miles without stopping.


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## Elan (Apr 6, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> I don't take 1200 mile road trips with any sort of regularity. I may have taken 2 of those in my lifetime, both using rental vehicles (RV one time and Jeep the other). Pretty sure most people don't drive that much either. So it's really not a valid criticism. It might be a reason_ for you_, but it's kind of crazy to expect any vehicle to go 1200 miles without stopping.



  Obviously, you didn't read the article.  He didn't go 1200mi without stopping.


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## VegasBella (Apr 6, 2016)

I know he didn't. 
But you're acting like having a super long range is necessary.

Many of us live in areas with plenty of charging stations and we don't go super long distances on a regular basis. We also often have 2+ cars or are willing to rent a car for a long trip. 

Clearly, those of us who are getting Teslas are Early Adopters. This isn't for everyone. The charging network will grow over time and EVs will become the new normal.


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## Passepartout (Apr 6, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> But you're acting like having a super long range is necessary.



The range doesn't have to be extremely long, just _long enough_. From your home in Las Vegas to Los Angeles, Google maps shows as 270 miles, and about 4 hours driving time. Your shiny new Tesla will have you twiddling your thumbs at least once each direction while it takes on a charge, adding the better part of another hour to the trip. AND, I suspect running the air conditioning will shorten that range significantly.

In order to be practical, (for me anyway) I'll wait for a 300 mile range. That will get me to 'reasonable' stopping points for a viable road trip.

BTW, in my former life driving heavy trucks, the vehicle got a bit over 6 mpg and carried 200 usable gallons of fuel for a range of over 1200 miles, allowing the operator to choose where to fuel based on loads and tax structure. 

Jim


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## VegasBella (Apr 6, 2016)

Passepartout said:


> The range doesn't have to be extremely long, just _long enough_. From your home in Las Vegas to Los Angeles, Google maps shows as 270 miles, and about 4 hours driving time. Your shiny new Tesla will have you twiddling your thumbs at least once each direction while it takes on a charge, adding the better part of another hour to the trip. AND, I suspect running the air conditioning will shorten that range significantly.



Yes I know. I have friends who have the Model S. What you do is you stop in Barstow for lunch. I already do that when I drive to So. California so it will likely be no different. I won't be "twiddling my thumbs" either. Even if the trip weren't planned for a lunch or dinner stop I would certainly find something more worthwhile to do, lol, like shop at the outlets or pull out a laptop and write. Um, also I have a 6-year-old child so I'm used to frequent stops on roadtrips. But yeah, I don't make that drive straight-through. I'm not 21 anymore.

So I might have to stop now and then for 30-50 minutes during roadtrips. Overall through the lifetime of the car I think the total time spent stopped to "refuel" will be diminished because I won't ever be stopping to fill up with gas. Most of the time I will just drive home and plug in then unplug and go the next morning - no weekly trips to the gas station.


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## Ken555 (Apr 6, 2016)

Elan said:


> worst of all, eat at Cracker Barrel  are all major drawbacks.




I'm with you on this!


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## Ken555 (Apr 6, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> Yes I know. I have friends who have the Model S. What you do is you stop in Barstow for lunch. I already do that when I drive to So. California so it will likely be no different. I won't be "twiddling my thumbs" either. Even if the trip weren't planned for a lunch or dinner stop I would certainly find something more worthwhile to do, lol, like shop at the outlets or pull out a laptop and write. Um, also I have a 6-year-old child so I'm used to frequent stops on roadtrips. But yeah, I don't make that drive straight-through. I'm not 21 anymore.
> 
> So I might have to stop now and then for 30-50 minutes during roadtrips. Overall through the lifetime of the car I think the total time spent stopped to "refuel" will be diminished because I won't ever be stopping to fill up with gas. Most of the time I will just drive home and plug in then unplug and go the next morning - no weekly trips to the gas station.





Exactly. Barstow isn't my favorite stop, but I've done it many times. Stopping there is the best option (other than Baker, though that's lost it's appeal). I usually stop at the outlet mall and walk around for a while (since sitting too long at a time isn't good...), and I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't charging options there, either.


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## Elan (Apr 7, 2016)

Passepartout said:


> In order to be practical, (for me anyway) I'll wait for a 300 mile range. That will get me to 'reasonable' stopping points for a viable road trip.
> 
> Jim



Yep, minimum of 300, and 400 would be much better.  If I can't get to a destination that's 2 hours away without hitting a supercharger, I'm not interested.  Refusal to acknowledge the restrictions inherent with the range limitation is simply being myopic or disingenuous.  

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## VacationForever (Apr 7, 2016)

Elan said:


> Yep, minimum of 300, and 400 would be much better.  If I can't get to a destination that's 2 hours away without hitting a supercharger, I'm not interested.  Refusal to acknowledge the restrictions inherent with the range limitation is simply being myopic or disingenuous.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk



I am with you on this.  I won't buy an electric car that does not go to a maximum of 700 miles.  We drive 10-12 hours within a day (each way) about 12 times a year as we travel to places for leisure.


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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2016)

Elan said:


> Yep, minimum of 300, and 400 would be much better.  If I can't get to a destination that's 2 hours away without hitting a supercharger, I'm not interested.  Refusal to acknowledge the restrictions inherent with the range limitation is simply being myopic or disingenuous.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk





I don't see the problem. EV isn't yet in a best case scenario for those who need to drive long distance routinely. For those of us - the majority, I suspect - in a city, even 100 mile range is sufficient. In fact, one of my team has a Fiat electric that goes about 100 miles and he doesn't have any problems. I think the Model 3 ~215 miles (or 193, at the suggested 90% capacity) would be much more than I need on a regular basis.


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## Jason245 (Apr 7, 2016)

Until the superchargers are able to charge the car a within 15 minutes (instead of the 2 plus hours I think it takes to get to full charge ), this just doesn't seem like a viable for mass market auto... it makes no sense to buy one for 35k when a family can buy a similar sized ford /honda/toyota for about 15k less all in.. 

I highly doubt that the capacity of the charging network will grow sufficiently to cover current needs in next 3 years let alone the needs of over 200k additional cars. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## SMHarman (Apr 7, 2016)

Elan said:


> Yep, minimum of 300, and 400 would be much better.  If I can't get to a destination that's 2 hours away without hitting a supercharger, I'm not interested.  Refusal to acknowledge the restrictions inherent with the range limitation is simply being myopic or disingenuous.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Huh. Unless your 2 hours away is 200 miles you can get to your destination. 130 miles each way is currently in range of many MS.


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## SMHarman (Apr 7, 2016)

sptung said:


> I am with you on this.  I won't buy an electric car that does not go to a maximum of 700 miles.  We drive 10-12 hours within a day (each way) about 12 times a year as we travel to places for leisure.


Any your current ICE car does 700 miles non stop? And your bladder!


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## SMHarman (Apr 7, 2016)

Jason245 said:


> Until the superchargers are able to charge the car a within 15 minutes (instead of the 2 plus hours I think it takes to get to full charge ), this just doesn't seem like a viable for mass market auto... it makes no sense to buy one for 35k when a family can buy a similar sized ford /honda/toyota for about 15k less all in..
> 
> I highly doubt that the capacity of the charging network will grow sufficiently to cover current needs in next 3 years let alone the needs of over 200k additional cars.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


Physics come in to play here tough to abstract electrons faster.


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## SMHarman (Apr 7, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> I don't see the problem. EV isn't yet in a best case scenario for those who need to drive long distance routinely. For those of us - the majority, I suspect - in a city, even 100 mile range is sufficient. In fact, one of my team has a Fiat electric that goes about 100 miles and he doesn't have any problems. I think the Model 3 ~215 miles (or 193, at the suggested 90% capacity) would be much more than I need on a regular basis.


I agree.
NYC to Syracuse is 4-5 hours and 250 miles. That trip with 20 mins in Binghamton charging while I pee and grab a coffee (20m goes quick) would be easy in a M3.


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## Pens_Fan (Apr 7, 2016)

I live in the Binghamton area, and to travel to anywhere west is difficult.

I go to Buffalo several times a year, and there is one station at just about 200 miles from me.

There is no way to get to Pittsburgh, another frequent trip.  

Nothing out Route 17/I-86, until it changes to I-90 in Cleveland.

For now, the investment for us is not worthwhile.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 7, 2016)

I have 3 motor vehicles which ONLY I use.

One is my 2007 Ford Ranger pickup ... if I could only have 1 vehicle, I would HAVE to keep this one. I use it for work SOME of the time.

My current drive every wheres car, is the subcompact 2010 Focus ... traded in my backup Ranger on the government's "Cash for Clunkers" and it now has 80,000+ miles on it. 

My FREE car (which it is hard to believe I have had for a year) is my 2010 Subaru with under 15,000 miles. I only took this vehicle to make my 90 yo aunt happy ... I take her out in it at least once a week ... driving her in HER car. I had to PROMISE her I would not "trash" the "has every option available" vehicle (and some I am sure I don't know exist on it yet).

And I have been reading this thread with MUCH INTEREST... for replacing my Focus in several years.

Thanks to ALL PRIOR POSTERS here ... I really appreciate the information.


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## Elan (Apr 7, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> Huh. Unless your 2 hours away is 200 miles you can get to your destination. 130 miles each way is currently in range of many MS.


I was planning on coming back home.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## SMHarman (Apr 7, 2016)

Elan said:


> I was planning on coming back home.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


The 3 with a 200 mile range is about 4 h of in seat time. 

Further, you need to paradigm shift and realize your gas station is now your home. Slightly short of range? 10 minutes at the supercharger gets you a 60 mile top up. Enough to get you home. About the same length of time a gas and go takes. 

Also. All day at the destination. Even a wall outlet will add 15 miles of range over 5 hours. 

You switch from a fill up to a top up mentality.


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## VacationForever (Apr 7, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> Any your current ICE car does 700 miles non stop? And your bladder!



I won't hang around at a place for more than 10 minutes to refuel or for bathroom breaks.  One meal stop for lunch for about 45 minutes maximum.


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## SMHarman (Apr 7, 2016)

sptung said:


> I won't hang around at a place for more than 10 minutes to refuel or for bathroom breaks.  One meal stop for lunch for about 45 minutes maximum.



So when the more extensive supercharger network exists. Just like an extensive gas station network now eexists that did not when the Model T was launched. 

Full charge 200 miles. 10 minute. Rest/pee stop add 60 miles. 45 min lunch, add 200. 10 min rest add 60. 

That's not 700 but 520. The delta is minimal and a larger battery pack can address the difference.


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## Elan (Apr 7, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> I don't see the problem. EV isn't yet in a best case scenario for those who need to drive long distance routinely. For those of us - the majority, I suspect - in a city, even 100 mile range is sufficient. In fact, one of my team has a Fiat electric that goes about 100 miles and he doesn't have any problems. I think the Model 3 ~215 miles (or 193, at the suggested 90% capacity) would be much more than I need on a regular basis.



  There's no "problem".  It is what it is.  If you live near multiple superchargers and/or only use your car for short jaunts to the mini mart you're fine.  To suggest that those of us that don't meet that criteria "don't understand" the charging network is insulting and, quite simply, ignorant.  I think the subsequent comments by many in the thread has shown where the true lack of understanding lies.  

  I put money on a 3.  Would love to own one.  But not unless they offer a range upgrade for a reasonable price.  It's not a practical option for me, because I don't need or want a Tesla simply to drive back and forth to work. I won't realize enough in savings to justify $35K.  Your point regarding the 100mi range Fiat only strengthens my case.  Most people live within 20mi of their work, so one could argue that 50mi range should be sufficient.  Why isn't it?  Because people want to use their cars for more than their work commute, and rightfully so.


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## Passepartout (Apr 7, 2016)

I think we can all agree that EVs are the future of cars. It might be Tesla, or it might be some other inventive provider. Or maybe one of the old 'standard' automakers will step in. Surely there are enough viable ideas to make a vibrant marketplace. 

A 3-wheel electric 'commuter cycle' might serve the needs of some. A Fiat e-car with 80 miles range may suit others, while nothing short of a super luxurious Tesla that can eat up 0-60mph in 3 seconds will do for still others. Someone wants an electric pickup truck- and surely there's a market for commercial electric delivery vehicles to bring us our Amazon Prime purchases.

We are at the dawn- no longer the crack of dawn in electric vehicles. They will improve, evolve, and there will probably be a place in the mix for longer-range hybrids for the long hauls. 

It will be fun to observe and partake in the evolution.

Jim


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## Elan (Apr 7, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> The 3 with a 200 mile range is about 4 h of in seat time.
> 
> Further, you need to paradigm shift and realize your gas station is now your home. Slightly short of range? 10 minutes at the supercharger gets you a 60 mile top up. Enough to get you home. About the same length of time a gas and go takes.
> 
> ...



  I can't think of the last time I went only 200mi in 4 hours (50mph??).  And you're assuming there's a supercharger at my destination.  Let's say I travel a more reasonable 140 miles in my 2 hours.  And there's no supercharger at my destination.  Now what?  I sit for 5 hours, without the use of my car, to get 15 miles of additional range....  

  Any way you slice it, a 200mi range is restrictive if you live in other than a major metropolitan area.   Effectively, my original comment.


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## SMHarman (Apr 7, 2016)

Pens_Fan said:


> I live in the Binghamton area, and to travel to anywhere west is difficult.
> 
> I go to Buffalo several times a year, and there is one station at just about 200 miles from me.
> 
> ...


But  81/90 to Buffalo via Syacuse is the same timewise and a supercharger exists in Syracuse.  

80 is a gap. Lewisburg / Milton and State College and DuBois need supercharger.  Tesla indicate that is on their 2016 plan though.


----------



## SMHarman (Apr 7, 2016)

Elan said:


> I can't think of the last time I went only 200mi in 4 hours (50mph??).  And you're assuming there's a supercharger at my destination.  Let's say I travel a more reasonable 140 miles in my 2 hours.  And there's no supercharger at my destination.  Now what?  I sit for 5 hours, without the use of my car, to get 15 miles of additional range....
> 
> Any way you slice it, a 200mi range is restrictive if you live in other than a major metropolitan area.   Effectively, my original comment.


I guess you live by an interstate on ramp?

Door to door average speed drops quickly while getting out of the city / suburb and at the other end. Even the 10 min break pulls down the average speed quickly. As does slowing down and stopping for tolls / stop lights etc. 

The only way to travel 140 miles in 2 hours is to pull out of your drive and immediately accelerate to 70 and stay there for 2 hours. 

Or drive 10 mins to the interstate at 30 and now you need to drive in the interstate at 80. Stopping for the ticket will lop time off your average speed then.

Or do you live in Germany or Montana?


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## Pens_Fan (Apr 7, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> But  81/90 to Buffalo via Syacuse is the same timewise and a supercharger exists in Syracuse.
> 
> 80 is a gap. Lewisburg / Milton and State College and DuBois need supercharger.



I actually live about 20 miles west of Binghamton, so it would be backtracking to go up I-81.

Distance would increase about 40 miles and time would increase about 30 minutes (plus charging time in Syracuse).

Is it horrible, no, but definitely inconvenient.


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## PigsDad (Apr 7, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> Or do you live in Germany or Montana?


Not sure if you have been "out West" lately, but the interstate speed limits are mostly 75 or 80 around here.  That translates to 80 or 85 before you really have to worry about getting pulled over.  For a road trip, an average or 70 is not that far off.

BTW, what does traveling at 80 mph do to the driving range of the typical EV?  I'm guessing the estimated range is based on driving much slower.

Kurt


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## SMHarman (Apr 7, 2016)

PigsDad said:


> Not sure if you have been "out West" lately, but the interstate speed limits are mostly 75 or 80 around here.  That translates to 80 or 85 before you really have to worry about getting pulled over.  For a road trip, an average or 70 is not that far off.
> 
> BTW, what does traveling at 80 mph do to the driving range of the typical EV?  I'm guessing the estimated range is based on driving much slower.
> 
> Kurt


I do not do much out west driving. That I do is usually in the winter. 

Speed limits on the East coast are way to low on many parts of the I system imho. Huge swathes of 90 88 80 87 91 outside the city exits could easily and safely be 80mph limits


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## VacationForever (Apr 7, 2016)

Yep, I cover 140 miles in 2 hours and I drive mainly on I-5 and 99 on the West.  My commute goes from Northearn CA down to Palm Springs area and Las Vegas area regularly and sometimes a little further east .


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## Elan (Apr 7, 2016)

PigsDad said:


> Not sure if you have been "out West" lately, but the interstate speed limits are mostly 75 or 80 around here.  That translates to 80 or 85 before you really have to worry about getting pulled over.  For a road trip, an average or 70 is not that far off.
> 
> BTW, what does traveling at 80 mph do to the driving range of the typical EV?  I'm guessing the estimated range is based on driving much slower.
> 
> Kurt



  Exactly.  I'm about to give up on trying to point out that not all of the world lives in overpopulated s**t-holes.  

  Pull out a map, people.  There's a big world out there.  We don't all live in Boston or LA.  I can be on the interstate in 10 minutes, and that's taking 45-55mph roads to get there.  We don't have toll roads out west (for the most part).  I can't recall the last time I went on an interstate roadtrip where I didn't hit at least 90mph.  Nor the last time I got a speeding ticket.  

  Maybe this will help.

 Idaho (note the absence of superchargers):


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## SMHarman (Apr 7, 2016)

Elan said:


> Exactly.  I'm about to give up on trying to point out that not all of the world lives in overpopulated s**t-holes.
> 
> Pull out a map, people.  There's a big world out there.  We don't all live in Boston or LA.  I can be on the interstate in 10 minutes, and that's taking 45-55mph roads to get there.  We don't have toll roads out west (for the most part).  I can't recall the last time I went on an interstate roadtrip where I didn't hit at least 90mph.  Nor the last time I got a speeding ticket.
> 
> ...


I get that but average driving speeds get pulled down quickly. 

10 mins at 50 now needs 10 mins at 90 or 20 at 80 to get the average back to 70. 

10 mins rest stop 0 requires 50 at 80 to get the average back. 

On the east side of the country these averages are tough and likely to get you a ticket.


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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2016)

Elan said:


> There's no "problem".  It is what it is.  If you live near multiple superchargers and/or only use your car for short jaunts to the mini mart you're fine.  To suggest that those of us that don't meet that criteria "don't understand" the charging network is insulting and, quite simply, ignorant.  I think the subsequent comments by many in the thread has shown where the true lack of understanding lies.



Stop stating that I'm insulting you. I'm not as ignorant as you think. It's getting tiring, and you're not winning any points by doing so. Somehow you think I don't get the reality of where you live because I have a different opinion, but that doesn't make my opinion invalid nor, as seems likely, exactly what Tesla is actually doing.





> I put money on a 3.  Would love to own one.  But not unless they offer a range upgrade for a reasonable price.  It's not a practical option for me, because I don't need or want a Tesla simply to drive back and forth to work. I won't realize enough in savings to justify $35K.  Your point regarding the 100mi range Fiat only strengthens my case.  Most people live within 20mi of their work, so one could argue that 50mi range should be sufficient.  Why isn't it?  Because people want to use their cars for more than their work commute, and rightfully so.




No, I disagree (surprise!). The Fiats seem to be selling well (I see many of them in LA...of which you had an eloquent description and opinion). EVs are great commuter cars. Many early adopters kept an ICE for long distance purposes, but that is rapidly changing. 

We get your issue. And yes, it's a problem because you're making it into one. I don't see the problem, and it's not a problem for me. If the capabilities of the car and the charging realities don't work for you, then don't buy one. I know you want one, and I appreciate that. But don't make the car seem inferior simply because you live in a region that doesn't support early investment into new technology etc etc. I really shouldn't have to explain this, as I'm sure you know it already.


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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2016)

Jason245 said:


> Until the superchargers are able to charge the car a within 15 minutes (instead of the 2 plus hours I think it takes to get to full charge )[...]




~30 minutes for 170 miles, which (depending on your route) is apparently likely to get you within range of another supercharger. Not ideal but not bad, either.


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## Jason245 (Apr 7, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> ~30 minutes for 170 miles, which (depending on your route) is apparently likely to get you within range of another supercharger. Not ideal but not bad, either.


30 minutes to partially full up (170 miles ) vs 5 minutes for 350 miles to 400 miles on my accord. . 

Now imagine 5 people in line in front of you. .  

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2016)

Jason245 said:


> 30 minutes to partially full up (170 miles ) vs 5 minutes for 350 miles to 400 miles on my accord. .
> 
> Now imagine 5 people in line in front of you. .




Not sure why you think this is news. Must we qualify our posts with the obvious? 

In any case, do you think Tesla hasn't thought through the impact of this very obvious issue? At this stage, either you trust that they will offer a product that works, or not. For me, that's the overriding question. All else will work out. 

Obviously, some will need to wait for the car with a battery that can handle driving cross country without stopping, but that's not the product they have right now.


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## Elan (Apr 7, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> Stop stating that I'm insulting you. I'm not as ignorant as you think. It's getting tiring, and you're not winning any points by doing so. Somehow you think I don't get the reality of where you live because I have a different opinion, but that doesn't make my opinion invalid nor, as seems likely, exactly what Tesla is actually doing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



  Ken, I wasn't directing my comments at you.  

  I find it insulting for someone to state that I "don't understand" something, simply because I don't fit their myopic view of the world.  And then to further state that I have "abnormal" driving habits when numerous others here have agreed with my stance because they have similar driving habits.  Maybe someone's view of normal is skewed..........

  I've stated my position quite clearly.  I am interested, but not with the current range restrictions.  Hopefully Tesla offers an affordable range extension package.  I wasn't making the car sound inferior by simply stating that it doesn't meet my needs.  That's your inference.  If I thought it was inferior, I wouldn't have put a deposit on one.  

  Yes, I get that a moderate range works for you and others.  I'm not attempting to invalidate that.  I'm simply pointing out that it doesn't work for me (or, quite obviously, many others here).  Why isn't that a valid position without it being due to my lack of "understanding" or "abnormal" driving habits?  Seriously.  Why is it so difficult to simply agree that the range is restrictive for those of us in less populated areas until either the range is extended, or the supercharger network grows immensely?


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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2016)

Elan said:


> Ken, I wasn't directing my comments at you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





This makes complete sense. 

I suspect this is just an issue of posters using incorrect words to describe their intent. Abnormal instead of rare, etc.


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## Blues (Apr 7, 2016)

PigsDad said:


> BTW, what does traveling at 80 mph do to the driving range of the typical EV?  I'm guessing the estimated range is based on driving much slower.
> 
> Kurt



https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/model-s-efficiency-and-range


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## PigsDad (Apr 7, 2016)

Blues said:


> https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/model-s-efficiency-and-range



Thanks for the pointer.  Looking at the graph, the model S has a range of ~310 miles at 55 mph, and 220 miles at 80 mph.  I would expect a similar performance curve on the newer models.

Kurt


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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2016)

325,000 reservations so far 

https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/the-week-electric-vehicles-went-mainstream


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Jason245 (Apr 7, 2016)

Passepartout said:


> I think we can all agree that EVs are the future of cars. It might be Tesla, or it might be some other inventive provider. Or maybe one of the old 'standard' automakers will step in. Surely there are enough viable ideas to make a vibrant marketplace.



I disagree with this statement. 

The EV concept for individual use has a number of deficiencies that have yet to be resolved. 

Our countries infrastructure is not designed to be able to support EV becoming the primary form of auto used in this country, and I highly doubt it can get there in the next 10 years.


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## Jason245 (Apr 7, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> Not sure why you think this is news. Must we qualify our posts with the obvious?
> 
> In any case, do you think Tesla hasn't thought through the impact of this very obvious issue? At this stage, either you trust that they will offer a product that works, or not. For me, that's the overriding question. All else will work out.
> 
> Obviously, some will need to wait for the car with a battery that can handle driving cross country without stopping, but that's not the product they have right now.


Believing they have a plan is one thing. . I would like to see the plan In action. . And to be honest,  comitting to a purchase without even a test drive is something I just couldn't ever bring my self to do..

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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2016)

Jason245 said:


> I disagree with this statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





...look beyond 10 years into the future.


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## Elan (Apr 7, 2016)

Here's something to ponder:

  If Tesla knocked $5K off the price for every 50 miles in range reduction, what range would you buy, and why?

  $35K   200mi range
  $30K   150mi
  $25K   100mi
  $20K    50mi


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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2016)

Jason245 said:


> Believing they have a plan is one thing. . I would like to see the plan In action. . And to be honest,  comitting to a purchase without even a test drive is something I just couldn't ever bring my self to do..





Their shareholders like them. That indicates their business plan is solid. 

As for a test drive,  I completely understand. But, it's an individual question. There's really no rush to buy as long as you don't mind waiting. I wanted a Tesla S, but had difficulty justifying the cost. The 3 is the right price for the right size car, at least for me. Will I hate it? Doubtful, but I'm a realist...and I know if I want to sell it I suspect I would get almost as much as I paid...which I can't say about any other similarly priced car. I don't think it's much of a risk.


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## Jason245 (Apr 7, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> ...look beyond 10 years into the future.


Even 20 to 30 years is a stretch. . I would actually put natural gas vehicles as a more probable end result.  Just no hype for them..

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## Jason245 (Apr 7, 2016)

Elan said:


> Here's something to ponder:
> 
> If Tesla knocked $5K off the price for every 50 miles in range reduction, what range would you buy, and why?
> 
> ...


Something else to ponder. . Once automated cars become functional,  the need for individual auto ownership will end..

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## VegasBella (Apr 7, 2016)

Just an FYI, Elon Musk said that they will be installing Superchargers based (in part) on the locations of the people who put down their deposits. 

He also said that the superchargers can and will be beefed up to go faster and in fact the ones in Germany already charge faster. 

Also, some supercharger locations have a human host assisting people to make sure that people charge as quickly as possible. It's just a test program right now but it is happening. 

Here's a good resource for more information on the Model 3:
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/4dikl7/model_3_questions_ask_here_or_search_the/


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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2016)

Elan said:


> Here's something to ponder:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Hmm...we have that question now when comparing other EVs. If they were all identical Tesla 3's and only had different capacity batteries...hmm...I'd probably go for the 150mi version, but I'd seriously consider the 100mi.  I don't think a 50mi is practical. My longer common daily drives are ~80mi at most, but I'm an exception since I don't often drive far. If I bought a 100mi EV, I'd likely keep an ICE for very long drives (assuming the superchargers aren't available within the distance, which I'd doubt since it'd have to be every 80 miles...that would get tedious, as well). Probably 150-200 is the sweet spot for me, and any more is gravy. The only reason I might be tempted to buy a larger battery would be for improved resale value.

For myself, an EV is likely a financially ill advised move. I only drive ~7,500 miles per year, which includes one or two long drives (long is ~400-600).


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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2016)

Jason245 said:


> Even 20 to 30 years is a stretch. . I would actually put natural gas vehicles as a more probable end result.  Just no hype for them..
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk





That's an entirely different topic. I know several who have natural gas and like them, but please start a new thread if you want to discuss that.


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## Jason245 (Apr 7, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> Their shareholders like them. That indicates their business plan is solid.
> 
> As for a test drive,  I completely understand. But, it's an individual question. There's really no rush to buy as long as you don't mind waiting. I wanted a Tesla S, but had difficulty justifying the cost. The 3 is the right price for the right size car, at least for me. Will I hate it? Doubtful, but I'm a realist...and I know if I want to sell it I suspect I would get almost as much as I paid...which I can't say about any other similarly priced car. I don't think it's much of a risk.


I remember another company shareholders liked.. pets.com

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## Jason245 (Apr 7, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> That's an entirely different topic. I know several who have natural gas and like them, but please start a new thread if you want to discuss that.


My response in partially a result of the ev being the primary car of future.. hybrid is another option that has more lt feasibility. 

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## Jason245 (Apr 7, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> Just an FYI, Elon Musk said that they will be installing Superchargers based (in part) on the locations of the people who put down their deposits.
> 
> He also said that the superchargers can and will be beefed up to go faster and in fact the ones in Germany already charge faster.
> 
> ...


Just cause he says something doesn't mean it will happen or happen timely.

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## VegasBella (Apr 7, 2016)

Jason245 said:


> Once automated cars become functional,  the need for individual auto ownership will end..


For the majority of drivers "the need for individual auto ownership" already died or never existed. Most people live in cities with mass transportation and many families have more than one car. There are taxis and Uber and Lyft and bicycles and all kinds of options. Americans don't buy cars for need. We buy them because we want them. 

Where I live has a pathetic walkability score (about 30-40/100) yet I can walk to get groceries, go out to eat, shop for clothing, go to the library, go to a gym, visit a coffee shop, see a movie, go to a park... there are schools nearby and offices too (though office rent is a bit higher than a few miles away). Point is, I live in sprawling suburbs and I don't really "need" a car. It's a luxury that I can easily afford and something I want so I have a car, like all my neighbors. And in my household we have two cars. And when our son is a teen we will have three cars. We don't _really_ need all those cars.



Elan said:


> If Tesla knocked $5K off the price for every 50 miles in range reduction, what range would you buy, and why?


If I wanted an electric golf cart I would have bought one.


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## SMHarman (Apr 7, 2016)

VegasBella said:


> For the majority of drivers "the need for individual auto ownership" already died or never existed. Most people live in cities with mass transportation and many families have more than one car. There are taxis and Uber and Lyft and bicycles and all kinds of options. Americans don't buy cars for need. We buy them because we want them.
> 
> Where I live has a pathetic walkability score (about 30-40/100) yet I can walk to get groceries, go out to eat, shop for clothing, go to the library, go to a gym, visit a coffee shop, see a movie, go to a park... there are schools nearby and offices too (though office rent is a bit higher than a few miles away). Point is, I live in sprawling suburbs and I don't really "need" a car. It's a luxury that I can easily afford and something I want so I have a car, like all my neighbors. And in my household we have two cars. And when our son is a teen we will have three cars. We don't _really_ need all those cars.
> 
> ...


I think walkabikity here is 100. 
Ownership does mean you get a known quantity and availability. 

I regularly remind myself that no car ownership saves me thousands a year. So when I rent, I can rent the nice car and pay a little more if I want  a bmw for that trip. 

I can also rent a van our truck or convertible. Right tool for the job. 

Does mean the car seats are in the apartment and boy do those Britax seats get heavy. Though I can find latch points like a pro now.


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## x3 skier (Apr 8, 2016)

Are the deposits placed in some sort of escrow account or are they unrestricted cash flow for general corporate purposes?

Cheers


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## SMHarman (Apr 8, 2016)

x3 skier said:


> Are the deposits placed in some sort of escrow account or are they unrestricted cash flow for general corporate purposes?
> 
> Cheers


Unrestricted.


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## Jason245 (Apr 8, 2016)

x3 skier said:


> Are the deposits placed in some sort of escrow account or are they unrestricted cash flow for general corporate purposes?
> 
> Cheers



the 325k people should think of it as a $325 Million unsecured payment to Tesla to help them pay the rent ETC until the car gets delivered or they go BK and reneg on their promise. 

Either way... it should be exciting... I have never in my life seen customers willing to give $325 Million for something that may come in 3-4 years with no security or interest whatsoever except a handshake and a receipt.


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## SMHarman (Apr 8, 2016)

Jason245 said:


> the 325k people should think of it as a $325 Million unsecured payment to Tesla to help them pay the rent ETC until the car gets delivered or they go BK and reneg on their promise.
> 
> Either way... it should be exciting... I have never in my life seen customers willing to give $325 Million for something that may come in 3-4 years with no security or interest whatsoever except a handshake and a receipt.


Now if you put the deposit down on a credit card and they don't deliver I guess you can claim it back from the issuer.


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## PigsDad (Apr 8, 2016)

SMHarman said:


> Now if you put the deposit down on a credit card and they don't deliver I guess you can claim it back from the issuer.


Most credit cards have a 6-month time limit to dispute a charge, so that will most likely not work.  Remember Aloha Airlines?  When they went BK, some people were not able to get a refund from their CC due to being too late to dispute the charge.  There was a big discussion here when that happened.

Kurt


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 9, 2016)

Telsa Will Let You Spec Out a Model X Starting Monday - by Richard Lawler/ Latest in Gear/ Engadget/ engadget.com

"Elon Musk confirmed it's on, so feel free to explore the options priced between $80k and $150k.



Sure, all of the excitement is around Tesla's $35k+ Model 3, but what about the Model X SUV? It's slowly starting to hit the road, and CEO Elon Musk claimed (in a since deleted tweet) that the SUV's configurator will open to all on Monday.

Until now, you needed to make a reservation (complete with $5,000 down payment) to get an invite for access, but in just a few days you can paw through all of the options and prices ranging from $80,000 for the base model to $150,000 fully loaded, before deciding to make a reservation. To get a head start on the masses, there are some videos of the configurator online, so you can have an idea of what it's like. One thing to consider however, is that those making reservations now are already expected to wait until the second half of the year. P90D performance with ludicrous mode, high-fidelity sound and/or spoiler? It's all up to you, or at least it could be on Monday..."

Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 9, 2016)

Telsa Model 3: The Monkey Wrench in GM's Plans for Chevy Bolt - by Mark Rogowsky/ Forbes/ Tech/ forbes.com

"You’re all set to launch the world’s first affordable electric vehicle with 200+ mile range. You’re pretty excited because reviewers call the car “attractive,” fun to drive,” and “game-changing.” But before you start getting the idea this is a story about Tesla, whose Model 3 set the automotive world by storm by garnering 325,000 preorders this week, remember that the first company to announce a mass-market, long-range EV was General Motors.

Three months ago, GM grabbed the headlines, unveiling the Chevy Bolt with a release promised for later this year. While that timetable will put the Bolt in consumers’ hands a year or more before Tesla delivers Model 3, the last seven days are the week that shook the automotive world. And they leave GM needing more than the instantaneous torque that electric cars offer to get the Bolt launch unstuck ahead of Tesla’s steamroller..."





Hexed? GM CEO Mary Barra and EVP Mark Reuss show off the Bolt in January. (Photo credit: GEOFF ROBINS/AFP/Getty Images)


Richard


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## Jason245 (Apr 9, 2016)

MULTIZ321 said:


> Telsa Will Let You Spec Out a Model X Starting Monday - by Richard Lawler/ Latest in Gear/ Engadget/ engadget.com
> 
> "Elon Musk confirmed it's on, so feel free to explore the options priced between $80k and $150k.
> 
> ...


I read somewhere that they are starting to adjust language related to model 3... I am guessing that people who thought they would be getting a 35k car with autopilot and 5 star safety and supercharge capabilities will be shocked when those features probably cost 10k a piece and the 35k car turnes into a 65k car after options.  Affordable eh?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## Elan (Apr 9, 2016)

Jason245 said:


> I read somewhere that they are starting to adjust language related to model 3... I am guessing that people who thought they would be getting a 35k car with autopilot and 5 star safety and supercharge capabilities will be shocked when those features probably cost 10k a piece and the 35k car turnes into a 65k car after options.  Affordable eh?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


I doubt anyone will be shocked by much of anything when the car hits production.  I certainly won't.  It was simply a $1k deposit to hold a spot -- at least to me.   I don't think that's going to bankrupt anyone, even if Tesla goes out of business in the interim.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Elan (Apr 9, 2016)

MULTIZ321 said:


> Telsa Model 3: The Monkey Wrench in GM's Plans for Chevy Bolt - by Mark Rogowsky/ Forbes/ Tech/ forbes.com
> 
> "You’re all set to launch the world’s first affordable electric vehicle with 200+ mile range. You’re pretty excited because reviewers call the car “attractive,” fun to drive,” and “game-changing.” But before you start getting the idea this is a story about Tesla, whose Model 3 set the automotive world by storm by garnering 325,000 preorders this week, remember that the first company to announce a mass-market, long-range EV was General Motors.
> 
> ...


If Chevy were smart, they'd drop the price of the Bolt by $10k.  They don't have to make any money on EV's right now.  As much as I don't like GM products, if I were after a simple commuter EV, I'd seriously consider the Bolt near $25k.  

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Ken555 (Apr 9, 2016)

Jason245 said:


> I read somewhere that they are starting to adjust language related to model 3... I am guessing that people who thought they would be getting a 35k car with autopilot and 5 star safety and supercharge capabilities will be shocked when those features probably cost 10k a piece and the 35k car turnes into a 65k car after options.  Affordable eh?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk





Only for the uninformed. I heard Elon's presentation and he was quite clear about including SuperCharger and Autopilot "hardware". That's very different than providing the full solution. Nuanced? Yes. Accurate? Yes.


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## x3 skier (Apr 9, 2016)

Ken555 said:


> Only for the uninformed. I heard Elon's presentation and he was quite clear about including SuperCharger and Autopilot "hardware". That's very different than providing the full solution. Nuanced? Yes. Accurate? Yes.



Misleading to non tech people? Yes. Will non tech people be interested? Who knows? So to me, it's sort of verbal "fine print". For 35k, I'd read the fine print. For $1000 deposit I hope I could sell later if things change, probably wouldn't. But it's moot to me anyway

Cheers


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## classiclincoln (Apr 9, 2016)

I've had a lot of conversations about the Tesla with them and friends who are interested in them.  I've been taken for a test drive and test drove a Model S.  I've been to Tesla dealerships (if that's what they're called, so I think I have a bit of knowledge about them, and I'm not posting this to be sarcastic or negative, just putting information out there.  There's one thing I haven't seen posted here.  The fact that you are not restricted to charging your car at a supercharger station.  You can charge your car with a regular 110 v outlet.  The issue is that it takes twice as long.  So, for those who are going on an overnight or cross country trip, all you have to do is plug in where you stop for the night and by the next morning, you'll have a fully charged car.  A   220 v charging station will give you an 80% charge in 20 minutes.

Also, there are charging stations that are not operated by Tesla that are not on Tesla's site.  We drove on the New York Thruway and saw charging stations.  There are charging stations at the rest stops in Delaware and Maryland on 95.  I also think there are charging stations on the NJ Turnpike.  Not sure about other roads.  

Additionally, there are charging stations at hotels, bed and breakfasts and mall parking lots.  I don't know every one, but I'm sure there is a way to find out.

When you stop at a charging station, your car remembers that spot (Telsa or other) so the next time you need to charge, it knows where the closest charging station is.

And finally, Tesla plans on having a charging station within 100 miles of every major city.  I can't remember the "due by" date, but I think it was by the end of either 2017 or 2018.

Personally, I don't plan on installing a 220 v line in my house.  Based on the driving I do (and yes, I'm in the east coast), I'll just plug in every night and wake up with a fully charged car.  The dozen times a year I drive more than 200 miles in a day, I'll just plan my trip to charge up somewhere, either at a charging station over lunch or dinner or at a hotel overnight.

Electric cars are not for everyone, just like a Maserati is not for everyone.  But, I do thing we'll see more and more electric cars and charging stations out there.


----------



## Ken555 (Apr 9, 2016)

classiclincoln said:


> There's one thing I haven't seen posted here.  The fact that you are not restricted to charging your car at a supercharger station.  You can charge your car with a regular 110 v outlet.  The issue is that it takes twice as long.



From what I've read a 110 outlet will provide ~3 miles per hour. A 220 washing dryer type connection (NEMA 14-50) will provide ~25-29 miles per hour.

https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/downloads/US/universalmobileconnector_nema_14-50.pdf

Reading more about this now...seems Tesla suggests that a 110 12A circuit will prove ~5 miles per hour for a S. It's likely that the 3 will be more efficient so could do better. Other forums report the tentative approximation of 1A = 1 mile per hour, so with 12A you'd end up with ~10A (80%) so might be able to get 10 miles per hour. Interesting, if accurate. 

Similarly, a 30A circuit (as opposed to 50A) might be more than sufficient for many of us, since it will provide ~24 miles per hour. There seem to be many options.

Note: I do not pretend to be very knowledgable about electricity. I know how to plug things in, and how to trip fuses.


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## Ken555 (Apr 9, 2016)

x3 skier said:


> Misleading to non tech people? Yes. Will non tech people be interested? Who knows? So to me, it's sort of verbal "fine print". For 35k, I'd read the fine print.




Exactly. No doubt he could have been clearer. 

Also, he's tweeted a bit since the announcement and it seems these types of options on the 3 will be much less expensive than they are on the S.


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 9, 2016)

Solar City Just Produced Enough Power to Charge Every Telsa on the Planet - by Lucinda Shen/ Tech/ SolarCity/ Fortune/ fortune.com

"Billionaire entrepreneur Elon Musk should be over the moon right now: The reveal of the Tesla Model 3 TSLA -2.81% at the end of March was a veritable success, while another company he’s involved in, SolarCity SCTY 3.67% , is also doing pretty well for itself.

As of March 22, the solar energy company’s customers officially produce enough electricity in a day to power Tesla’s fleet, according to a Thursday SolarCity blogpost.

That works out to eight million kilowatt-hours of electricity a day for the 107,000 or so Tesla Model S cars sold through the end of 2015. SolarCity noted that eight million kilowatt-hours is in fact enough to power 114,000 Tesla vehicles. SolarCity has about 230,000 customers...."

Richard


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## Elan (Apr 9, 2016)

I think everyone is aware that a Tesla can be charged from a standard outlet.  But a standard outlet only puts out 1.8kW (15A @ 120v).  I haven't seen the exact size or charging specifications of the model 3 battery that provides 220 mile range, but for the sake of discussion let's say it's 44kWh.  So it would take roughly 24 hours (44/1.8) of charging to go from depleted to full, assuming lossless charging.  That's roughly 10 miles range per hour of charge. And I'm pretty sure I'm being overly optimistic here. So yeah, if you get to your destination and plug in, you might get 100 or so miles range added overnight, assuming you don't drive to dinner or the grocery, etc.  Again, just math based on assumptions, but it's likely a pretty reasonable, if not optimistic, estimate.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## VegasBella (Apr 11, 2016)

Apparently the reservations exceeded everyone's predictions






read more here:
http://insideevs.com/reservations-of-tesla-model-3-top-analysts-predictions/

New psychedelic cowbell mode as Autopilot Easter egg:




read more:
http://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-tweets-psychdelic-cowbell-autopilot/


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 16, 2016)

Telsa Model 3 Demand Startled Everyone, Even Musk; Now What? by John Voelcker/ Green Car Reports/ Venture Beat (VB)/ venturebeat.com

"To say that the auto industry has been startled by the volume of deposits on the Tesla Model 3 would be an understatement.

The number of potential buyers worldwide who have sent Tesla Motors $1,000 to reserve a place in line to buy the car is now approaching 400,000, said longtime executive Diarmuid O’Connell.

And at least one financial commentator has asked whether the total could be as high as 1 million by the time the car enters production.

The number of deposits startled CEO Elon Musk, as his flurry of tweets after the March 30 unveiling seemed to indicate.

And the massive deposit queue imposes some new and additional challenges on Tesla, on top of several huge hurdles it already had to overcome between now and the start of Model 3 production.

First, the new hurdles that have arisen since the Model 3 unveiling...."


Richard


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## Elan (Apr 17, 2016)

Interesting that one can buy a low miles Nissan Leaf for around $10k.  Would be fun to buy one and make a series hybrid out of it.  

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Passepartout (Apr 17, 2016)

Elan said:


> Interesting that one can buy a low miles Nissan Leaf for around $10k.  Would be fun to buy one and make a series hybrid out of it.



Prolly due to the Tesla sign up. Where #1 DS lives in Redmond WA, Leafs (Leaves?) are thick. 'Course so are Tesla's & Ferrari's & other exotic iron. A measly 80 mile Leaf is yesterday's news.

But what is a series hybrid? Buy a bunch of 'em and station them every 50 miles so you can take a trip? But if you want a SERIOUS hybrid, buy a Prius or Volt.


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## VegasBella (Apr 18, 2016)

Also curious what a "series hybrid" is.

The used low mileage Leafs on the market now are vehicles that are coming off leases. They were that price before the Tesla Model 3 announcements. I don't think it has anything to do with Tesla.
A number of people like electric vehicles but are wary of battery degradation thus they only do an EV lease, they don't buy EVs. That's why there are used Leafs out now that have low miles.


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## Elan (Apr 18, 2016)

A series hybrid uses both a motor and ICE, but only the motor connects to the drivetrain (power sources are configured in series).  In a parallel hybrid, both motor and engine can drive the drivetrain (power sources are configured in parallel).


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## x3 skier (Apr 20, 2016)

*Tesla quality problems reported in the Wall Street Journal*

One thing that struck me is Consumer Reports withdrew their recommendations.

Subscription required to read the article  Sorry

"It will be years until the Model X’s longer term quality is well documented, but its predecessor, the Model S, has had a bumpy road. Consumer Reports last year pulled its recommendation for the Model S because of reliability problems even though reviewers loved driving the car so much they initially gave it the highest score ever.

Mark Rechtin, a Consumer Reports editor, said the product review magazine recommends avoiding new cars in the first year of production, especially those loaded with new technology. “This is one thing if you have the white-glove services,” he said. “The bigger concern is that you are starting to have tens of thousands of vehicles out in the fleet.”"

Cheers


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## MULTIZ321 (May 12, 2016)

A Prius for the 2020's: Telsa's 'Hell Bent' Push to Make the Model 3 Affordable - by Brooke Crothers/ Forbes/ Tech/ forbes.com

"Model 3 in, Prius out.

That’s my prediction. The most-prominent symbol to date of the green car, the Prius, could be replaced by the Model 3 — if Tesla can make lots of them. Elon Musk wasted no time this past week, during the company’s earnings conference call, in addressing just that: manufacturing and the laser-like focus  – “hell bent” as he put it — the company needs to make the electric car that it was born to make.  I like companies that obsess about manufacturing. That alone is a good indicator of future success. (The Intel INTC -1.03% of the 90s is a good example. And Toyota of course.) Musk made a great argument — largely overlooked by the numbers-centric media — for obsessing about manufacturing. “We believe that manufacturing technology is itself subject to a tremendous amount of innovation, and in fact we believe that there is more potential for innovation in manufacturing than there is in the design of a car by a long shot.” ..."

Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (May 16, 2016)

Can Telsa Meet Lofty Model 3 Production Goals With New Production Boss? - by Brooke Crothers/ Forbes/ Tech/ forbes.com

"Tesla Motors TSLA +0.25% announced that it has hired an Audi executive to oversee production as it looks to dispel lingering doubts about its ability to get a handle on production issues dogging its Model X — and the challenges ahead for the high-volume Model 3.

Tesla said on Friday afternoon that Peter Hochholdinger, who oversaw production of Audi’s A4, A5 and Q5 vehicles, would be joining Tesla as VP of Vehicle Production. Hochholdinger “will be responsible for continuing to increase and improve Model S and Model X production, as well as help build a scalable, cost-effective and quality manufacturing program specifically designed for Model 3,” Tesla said in a statement. This comes as two senior manufacturing executives leave the company.

What lies ahead for Hochholdinger?..."


Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Oct 27, 2016)

Tesla Just Did Something It Hasn't Done in 3 Years - by Kevin Kelleher/ Business/ Autos/ Time/ time.com

"Elon Musk's electric automaker is beating almost everybody's expectations. Can it stay in high gear?

Depending on who you ask, Tesla is either on its way to becoming a huge force in the auto industry, or it’s a financial disaster waiting to happen. The electric automaker just made a strong case that, for now, the momentum is favoring the bulls..."





Spencer Platt—Getty Images A Tesla model S sits parked in a new Tesla showroom and service center in Red Hook, Brooklyn on July 5, 2016 in New York City. 

Richard


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## Elan (Jun 5, 2017)

So, I'm curious as to how many of us here who've put down a deposit are, at this point, likely to follow through with purchase?  I'd put my odds at around 20%, primarily because I think the base version of the 3 will be very base.  For the likely $40-45k that a more premium version will cost, there are other vehicles that suit my family better.


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## Gaozhen (Jun 5, 2017)

Elan said:


> So, I'm curious as to how many of us here who've put down a deposit are, at this point, likely to follow through with purchase?  I'd put my odds at around 20%, primarily because I think the base version of the 3 will be very base.  For the likely $40-45k that a more premium version will cost, there are other vehicles that suit my family better.



I probably won't follow through for the Model 3 anymore, but may keep the deposit in and see about transferring it to the new SUV or pickup when they are announced. Those two platforms interest me a lot more.


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## classiclincoln (Jun 5, 2017)

I just got my Tesla Model S about 3 months ago and had and am having a HORRIBLE experience with Tesla. In reading on the Tesla forum, I found out that I'm not the only one. Too many details to go over here, but feel free to contact me if you want details.  I'd be cautious.


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## VegasBella (Jul 27, 2017)

Model 3 reveal is Friday night! Who is excited?



			
				CNET said:
			
		

> According to a new tweet from Tesla's main account, the Model 3 event on July 28 will be livestreamed on Tesla.com, starting at 8:45 p.m. Pacific. The event will entail Tesla delivering the first 30 Model 3 sedans to their new owners.



https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/heres-how-to-watch-teslas-model-3-event-on-july-28/


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## Elan (Jul 28, 2017)

I'd say more curious than "excited".  I'd be excited if I had money down on a soon-to-be-revealed P15.


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## Egret1986 (Jul 28, 2017)

VegasBella said:


> Model 3 reveal is Friday night! Who is excited?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/heres-how-to-watch-teslas-model-3-event-on-july-28/



Yep!  

"Hopefully, the event will also give us a better idea of the options and pricing structure, since we still don't know much about those."

DH and I were just talking about the Model 3 last night, wondering when things would start popping.

Thanks for the heads-up.  Hope it offers something up.


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## Chrispee (Jul 28, 2017)

I'm excited to see the cost of options and more details on the interior. Hopefully they launch the website car configuration feature.


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## Egret1986 (Jul 29, 2017)

I really liked the commercial that they showed for the Model 3.


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## VegasBella (Jul 30, 2017)

Chrispee said:


> I'm excited to see the cost of options and more details on the interior. Hopefully they launch the website car configuration feature.



A handful of people have shared screenshots of the configurator. 

Here is a link with options and costs: https://electrek.co/2017/07/29/tesla-model-3-production-specs-revealed/amp/


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## VacationForever (Jul 30, 2017)

VegasBella said:


> A handful of people have shared screenshots of the configurator.
> 
> Here is a link with options and costs: https://electrek.co/2017/07/29/tesla-model-3-production-specs-revealed/amp/


So the car is now up to $57K if the buyer wants a long range battery, "premium" package, and self driving capability.  Well, the car is still not for the masses.


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## Chrispee (Jul 31, 2017)

I'll be ordering mine with the small battery and premium package (depending on Canadian pricing), so hopefully I'll be able to take delivery by next summer. It will be interesting to see the reviews from the car mags once they get the press cars out in the field. Can't imagine showrooms will have demo cars for another two to three months. Anybody here abandoning their reservation at this point?


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## LisaH (Jul 31, 2017)

We will be at least another year before our number is called. No need to abandon now I guess


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## Elan (Jul 31, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> So the car is now up to $57K if the buyer wants a long range battery, "premium" package, and self driving capability.  Well, the car is still not for the masses.


  I wouldn't include the self-driving option as part of your analysis, but otherwise yeah, it's kind of as I'd expected.  To up the range from 220mi to 310mi, which is still kind of an unfortunate number (5 hours in the car at 60mph??? -- hardly road trip worthy), adds $9K.  IMO, they're missing the boat on the battery configurations.  310mi range doesn't really buy one much over 220 if they're using the car as a commuter (only have to charge every 7th day vs every 5th day??.  Big deal.)


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## Passepartout (Jul 31, 2017)

Elan said:


> I wouldn't include the self-driving option as part of your analysis, but otherwise yeah, it's kind of as I'd expected.  To up the range from 220mi to 310mi, which is still kind of an unfortunate number (5 hours in the car at 60mph???


I wonder what the range gets reduced to if you run 80 mph instead of 60? I came upon a Model S the other day that was going about 60 in an 80 mph zone. I know from our Prius experience that it gets about 42 mpg at 80 and 50 mpg at 60 mph and 0ver 60 mpg at 45. I'd expect similar numbers from a Tesla. Which is to say that standard 220 mile range at 60 is likely to be closer to 160 or so at 80 mph. I guess you'd just have to be happy that you'd look REALLY COOL to all those drivers passing you.

Jim


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## pedro47 (Jul 31, 2017)

I saw an older Tesla blue color model Sunday and it was just outstanding. Loved the dashboard and leather seats.


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## x3 skier (Jul 31, 2017)

I think the bubble is about to burst

Cheers


----------



## VacationForever (Jul 31, 2017)

x3 skier said:


> I think the bubble is about to burst
> 
> Cheers


You mean the euphoria and/or stock price?


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## x3 skier (Jul 31, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> You mean the euphoria and/or stock price?



Both, but who knows? Reminds me of Tulip Mania back in old Holland. 

Cheers


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## VegasBella (Jul 31, 2017)

About the larger battery - I'm not sure I would want it but that distance is just about the distance between LA and Vegas, fyi. So it would be especially convenient for a large number of Telsa owners 



Passepartout said:


> I wonder what the range gets reduced to if you run 80 mph instead of 60? I came upon a Model S the other day that was going about 60 in an 80 mph zone. I know from our Prius experience that it gets about 42 mpg at 80 and 50 mpg at 60 mph and 0ver 60 mpg at 45. I'd expect similar numbers from a Tesla. Which is to say that standard 220 mile range at 60 is likely to be closer to 160 or so at 80 mph. I guess you'd just have to be happy that you'd look REALLY COOL to all those drivers passing you.
> 
> Jim



There is a range calculator online - range is determined by speed, weather, wheel size, and whether or not you use the a/c. Other factors that aren't shown on the calculator are: whether you're towing or not and hills. 
https://www.tesla.com/models - scroll down to the range calculator. Looks like speed changes the mileage by about 5-15 miles per 5-10 degrees F. 

I think the one you saw was just a slow driver or else they were going far and wanted to save battery for the range. I see Teslas every day and they go fast! Just depends how far you're driving. I would think only for long roadtrips would you want to go slower. Not everyone drives 80 mph. 

Could also be due to autopilot. Not sure what it is now but there was a while when if you had autopilot engaged you weren't allowed to drive over the speed limit.


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## Passepartout (Jul 31, 2017)

VegasBella said:


> About the larger battery - *I'm not sure I would want it but that distance is just about the distance between LA and Vegas*, fyi. So it would be especially convenient for a large number of Telsa owners
> 
> There is a range calculator online - range is determined by speed, weather, wheel size, and whether or not you use the a/c. Other factors that aren't shown on the calculator are: whether you're towing or not and hills.
> https://www.tesla.com/models - scroll down to the range calculator. Looks like speed changes the mileage by about 5-15 miles per 5-10 degrees F.
> ...



Interesting. If one lived in either L.A. or Las Vegas, it would make sense to have enough battery to go non-stop between the two. (but for $8,000 upcharge?) We find that temperature affects our mileage in the Prius. It drops about 2-3 mpg with a/c and winter kills it because cabin heat only comes with the IC engine running. I've found that hills have negligible effect. If you go up a hill and burn a little more fuel, you get it back, coasting down the other side.

It's possible that the Tesla driver I passed was trying to stretch his range. It was on a stretch of (according to the Supercharger map) 100 miles between chargers. The speed limit here is 80 and virtually everyone fudges that by a little. 

They look good, but I don't commute anywhere, and have sort of set a minimum range of 350 miles before I'd get one over a hybrid.


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## Elan (Aug 1, 2017)

Pretty obvious that Tesla has tried to make the base model as unappealing as possible.  When paint color is a $1K upcharge, and part of the "premium" package is power front seats and 2 rear USB ports, you know there were some major corners cut trying to get to the $35K price.   
  I'm almost certainly out at this point.  Pretty disappointing, as there's nothing really revolutionary in technology or packaging.


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## x3 skier (Aug 2, 2017)

USAF using Teslas 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/mil.../?src=nl&mag=pop&list=nl_pnl_news&date=080117

Cheers


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## MULTIZ321 (Aug 3, 2017)

63,000 People Have Cancelled Their Telsa Model 3 Orders
By Bryan Logan/ Finance/ Business Insider/ businessinsider.com

"About 63,000 people have canceled their Tesla Model 3 orders in the past year, Tesla CEO Elon Musk said during the electric-car company's quarterly earnings call on Wednesday.

Total orders for the entry-level electric luxury sedan dropped to 455,000 from about 518,000, Musk said, but he suggested the cancellations were merely a drop in the bucket because the company had averaged about 1,800 new Model 3 reservations a day since Friday, when the first 30 cars were handed over to Tesla employees.

Customer deliveries will begin this fall..."





The first 30 Tesla Model 3s were delivered Friday. Bryan Logan/Business Insider 

Richard


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## VegasBella (Aug 3, 2017)

At this point I don't think the reservations matter a ton. I think once the cars get on the road for however many of us keep our reservations then the numbers of electric cars from all makers will increase, period, and I think that's a good thing 

I'm scheduled to get mine early next year. I am hoping it's around March or sooner!


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## classiclincoln (Aug 3, 2017)

I was talking with an owner about mile per charge (we both had 90Ds) and when I told him I'm getting about 320 MPC, he said "not me, I drive it like I stole it".

There are 2 kinds of people who drive Teslas; those who drive for the speed (my neighbor) and those who drive for the MPC (me).

Disgusted with the minor problem I'm having with mine.  They can't seem to figure out what's causing the problem and I'm do fed up I'd be willing to give it back to them.  320 MPC is nice, and the car is cool, but every time I get in and start it up and hear the problem, I get annoyed.


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## Elan (Aug 4, 2017)

classiclincoln said:


> I was talking with an owner about mile per charge (we both had 90Ds) and when I told him I'm getting about 320 MPC, he said "not me, I drive it like I stole it".
> 
> There are 2 kinds of people who drive Teslas; those who drive for the speed (my neighbor) and those who drive for the MPC (me).
> 
> Disgusted with the minor problem I'm having with mine.  They can't seem to figure out what's causing the problem and I'm do fed up I'd be willing to give it back to them.  320 MPC is nice, and the car is cool, but every time I get in and start it up and hear the problem, I get annoyed.


What's the problem?


Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## classiclincoln (Aug 4, 2017)

To make a long story short, when I get in and the car starts, the radio (regular FM) cuts in and out.  Doesn't happen every time, but most of the time.  Sometimes longer periods of time than others.  Very annoying.


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## pwrshift (Aug 5, 2017)

I love driving, as long as I'm able, with annual drives to my FL timeshares from Canada as well as a 12 hour drive to/from Williamsburg each year.  In addition, we do longer drives such as Toronto to Vancouver one year and to PEI the next.  Had a wonderful drive to Vegas, Phoenix, LA, Seattle, and back.  Can't imagine doing those trips in a Tesla in the same timeframe like 12 hours a day with 2 drivers.

I know there are fast electric charging stations springing up, but doubt they are free in the future.  In Toronto, condos are starting to charge $35-50 a month for plugging electric cars in.

Remember when you could fill your tires for free in the past...I suspect free electric charges will soon be a thing of the past.  Does that mean a Tesla car is just used for getting groceries?

My last car was a Mercedes S Hybrid.  Mpg was pretty good for a large car but we could drive 30 hours straight to FL if we wanted to.  Unfortunately Mercedes cancelled that model when my lease was up.


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## Passepartout (Aug 5, 2017)

classiclincoln said:


> To make a long story short, when I get in and the car starts, the radio (regular FM) cuts in and out.  Doesn't happen every time, but most of the time.  Sometimes longer periods of time than others.  Very annoying.


That would annoy me no end-I like radio. It shouldn't be that hard to isolate/remedy. It would have to either be internal to the radio, or power or antenna intermittent short. Does it short out if listening to a disc or usb plugged in? Has the mfr offered to swap out the radio?  Does the car need to be moving? Not sure if this would be a deal killer, but it would aggravate me, like it has you.

Jim.


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## classiclincoln (Aug 5, 2017)

They pulled the entire rear apart for the antenna & checked the radio and said it's all working fine.  They tell me it's a software issue.


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## x3 skier (Aug 5, 2017)

classiclincoln said:


> They tell me it's a software issue.



The last refuge of a lousy designer. I don't know how many times I was told that in my 50 years in the aircraft development business. Often true but, it shouldn't happen to a good design.

In this case, I really doubt "the software defense" because it that were true, it would be a generic problem and happening more frequently. Software doesn't one day decide to change some zeros to ones in one car. It's more likely that something is defective that contains some software someplace and is causing the problem.

I had a wild experience in my old BMW X3 when everything seemingly started going haywire, windows deciding on their own to go up or down, wipers on and off, radio on or off.  They wound up replacing the whole instrument cluster which is a node in the electrical system.

Keep hounding them

Cheers


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## VegasBella (Aug 5, 2017)

pwrshift said:


> I know there are fast electric charging stations springing up, but doubt they are free in the future.


No they won't be free. But overall it's still a cost savings for most people.

Everyone will be different depending on where you live - just like with gas. For me, I will get an electric subsidy for charging at home (which basically evens out my electric costs so I probably won't pay more in electric than I currently pay). I will also get free parking in the City of Las Vegas. And I will avoid all the gas costs including our local 50 cent tax that helps maintain our roads. I will likely also get the federal tax credit. And the options I'm looking at will make my car cost between $40k - $45k before tax credit, not $55k or $60k (I want autopilot and perhaps a larger battery).

Most people will be doing most of their charging at home and/or at work. They will only need to stop to charge at SuperChargers on roadtrips. The overall time savings evened out is pretty large for most people. Right now I have to stop at a gas station every few days and it takes 5-15 minutes each time. When I get my Tesla I will simply drive and then plug in when I get home. No time at all to 'fuel up.' So only on road trips will I stop at SuperChargers and have to wait 30-90 minutes (depending on my need). I will schedule those in for lunch breaks, which I already take. 

For instance, I drive from Vegas to Carlsbad every Summer. Right now with gas I stop at least once in Barstow for lunch, gas, and coffee. (I often stop more frequently for potty breaks and to stretch my legs and to give my kiddo a bit of time outside of the car... but let's ignore that for now.) So for me, my routine won't really change a bit. I will still stop in Barstow for lunch, electric, and coffee. And lucky for me, one of the future slated SuperChargers will be in Carlsbad and is scheduled to be completed by the end of this year. So that means if everything stays on track then my Summer trip to Carlsbad Inn won't really change at all! I can drive there and charge along the way (at least two more SuperChargers are scheduled to come in along the specific route I take so if I miss Barstow or its full I can do another one - and more chargers are coming in slight off the route I drive) and then charge in Carlsbad so I'm full up to go home


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## Elan (Aug 5, 2017)

x3 skier said:


> The last refuge of a lousy designer. I don't know how many times I was told that in my 50 years in the aircraft development business. Often true but, it shouldn't happen to a good design.
> 
> In this case, I really doubt "the software defense" because it that were true, it would be a generic problem and happening more frequently. Software doesn't one day decide to change some zeros to ones in one car. It's more likely that something is defective that contains some software someplace and is causing the problem.
> 
> ...


Agreed.  Highly unlikely it's a software issue, or more owners would have the same issue and a fix would likely have been released.  Problem shouldn't be difficult to debug.  
  I'd be on their asses non-stop until they resolve the problem.  Unacceptable for any modern vehicle, but especially for one that cost that much.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## VegasBella (Aug 5, 2017)

This article has a good chart to compare many of the electric cars available right now and how the Model 3 stacks up. 
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-teslas-model-3-stacks-151905877.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chrispee (Nov 7, 2017)

Lots more skepticism and delays juxtaposed with lots of positive reviews... here's a good review of the car:


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## Ken555 (Feb 13, 2018)

Spent an hour with the new Model 3 today. Looks great, very comfortable, etc. Anyone here receive delivery yet? I’m not going to need to make a decision until later this year since I don’t want the long range model and they haven’t started building the standard range yet.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Gaozhen (Feb 13, 2018)

Not yet, I'm waiting for AWD so late 2018 or sometime in 2019


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## Elan (Feb 13, 2018)

I did get this update earlier this week:

  "As we work hard to meet demand, we wanted to let you know that your estimated delivery timing has been adjusted to a slightly later window. "


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## x3 skier (Feb 13, 2018)

“Slightly later”. That’s a hoot. 

“In August last year, there was a November 2017 delivery projection for the Standard Battery Model 3, which moved to early 2018 a few months later and is now late 2018 or early 2019.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckj...-production-goals-and-model-3-delivery-dates/

Cheers


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## Chrispee (Feb 13, 2018)

I cancelled my day 1 reservation last month.  Delays did play a factor, as well as the fact that the newest addition to our family is a Labrador Retriever.  I'm still thinking my next car will be a Tesla though!


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## Passepartout (Feb 13, 2018)

I can sort of sympathize with the wait, wait, wait. It isn't a Tesla, but  back in August of 2014, I put a grand down on a 3 wheeled Elio. www.eliomotors.com/ Still waiting. Waiting. Waiting. It was supposed to go into production in '15, then '16, then it's been pretty much radio silence. 

Jim


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## Ken555 (Feb 13, 2018)

I’m (still) not concerned about the timing, other than I want to buy while the $7,500 federal tax credit is still available. 

The one item I didn’t like on the 3 was the door handles, though I’m sure I’ll adapt. If you don’t know what I’m referring to, google it.


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## VacationForever (Feb 13, 2018)

I am stating the obvious and may have already been mentioned on this thread.  Collecting deposits for many months ahead of delivery provides Tesla with much needed cash flow.  Very smart move by Tesla.


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## Ken555 (Feb 13, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> I am stating the obvious and may have already been mentioned on this thread.  Collecting deposits for many months ahead of delivery provides Tesla with much needed cash flow.  Very smart move by Tesla.



There were multiple articles written about this in 2016. Yes, it’s obvious.


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## LisaH (Feb 13, 2018)

I saw a white model 3 today next to a modell S. Model 3 looks quite a bit smaller but it still looks good! DH has a reservation. Supposed to be this April but got the same delay notification. Anyone knows when the federal tax credit expires? Hopefully he will get the car before it expires.


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## Ken555 (Feb 13, 2018)

LisaH said:


> I saw a white model 3 today next to a modell S. Model 3 looks quite a bit smaller but it still looks good! DH has a reservation. Supposed to be this April but got the same delay notification. Anyone knows when the federal tax credit expires? Hopefully he will get the car before it expires.



There’s just under a foot difference between the models, more rear seat headroom in the 3, half the trunk space, etc.

Fed credit is good up to 250,000 cars shipped by Tesla. There are some estimates out there re how many they’ve already shipped, but nothing accurate. After 250,000 it goes to $3,750, etc.


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