# Whats with all the Whining on this board ?



## JBRES1 (Apr 27, 2012)

What is going on over here on the Marriott Board ?
There seems to be alot of whining going on about how the game has changed and people aren't happy about it.
Yes, i know the Marriott no longer owns the timeshare group.
Yes , I know that the Marriott is now offering a point system rather than the week system of old.
Yes, I know the Marriott is playing games with the inventory at II.

People need to get a grip on what really matters, this is Timesharing after all.

As the game changes, we too must change to play it to the best of our ability.  You play the game by the new rules or you sell your weeks and vacation another way.

So, you can't always get a 2 bdr unit for your studio.
So, you can't trade your silver week for a platinum week like you had in the past.
So, you didn't get the view you wanted .
If you were able to get up trades in unit size , that was a bonus.
If you were able to trade up in season, that too was a bonus.
If your view was ocean front top floor, you died and that was heaven.

The timeshare game has been changing for quite some time.
I was once able to get (5) 2 bdr units at the Mannor Club in July using (2) lock off Grande Vista  units and a $349.00 Monarch AC week for a family vacation.  I was very happy that I was able to do all of that with my 2 weeks and an AC.  The thing is, I knew even back then that what I did was not the norm.  I was happy to get it, but didn't expect it 

Do you remember 10 or 15 years ago when the South African weeks were being sold for less than $300.00 with annual fees of less than $200.00. For a while people that owned at these resorts got some really great trades.  

When I purchased my weeks, I did so with the plan of going there at least 1/2 of the time, and trading the other 1/2.   It has not worked out 100% the way I planned, but it has still worked out in the end.   I have rented out my weeks, and rented weeks from others to make my vacations work for me and my family. 

When all is said and done, I am still happy I joined TUG,  purchased my Marriott timeshares , and have gone on all the wondeful trips with my family.

The only thing I would have changed is I would have purchased 2 platinum weeks rather than 1 platinum and 1 gold week.

Jim Breslin


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## pipet (Apr 27, 2012)

Whenever you take something away, people will be unhappy, & whether you (or they) think it was deserved or not is irrelevant!  You don't even have to always take something away; try changing some policy/procedure at a big company & see how many employees gripe about it for years.  It's human nature.  

Yeah, eventually people figure out how to deal with it, but they come on TUG to grumble a bit.  I don't see it as a big deal, because people also come on TUG to share when something wonderful works out with their TS vacation as well.  Lately, there have been a lot of posts talking about successes with DC trades and people who are using it to work around life events.  Some people do the opposite of whine & even have the board craving Marriott guaca - mole...

And, let's be fair, some of the "whining" is due to the fact that Marriott is not perfect and there are some legitimate (by any standards) complaints out there.  There are some wonderful things about Marriott, but they've made some decisions that inevitably lead to unhappy owners.  Some of these things were present even before the DC: poor seasoning (Newport), over-broad view categories (my beloved Waiohai is an example), etc.  When people paid extra for seasons/view, they expect to be able to get them.  While you can argue that people should have known what they were getting, the problem could have been avoided if Marriott planned better (& doubtlessly could have charged more for the premium weeks/view to offset lower prices for properly categorizing off-weeks).  Then, the DC introduced new issues, like allocating the same number of points to people who paid more for certain view categories (Aruba views being a prime example, but there are also other examples).  If you paid extra $ for a view, wouldn't you be just a teensy bit annoyed that your higher purchase price didn't warrant any DC compensation?  And of course, there's the skim, which I mentally think of as an exchange fee, but for some resorts it is significant.

But, to your point, there have always been resorts that have better value in some respect than others (for renting, MRPs, etc), so in the end, nothing new under the sun.  It's just a change.  The grumbling is nothing new, either.  Just my2c.


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## jme (Apr 27, 2012)

JBRES1 said:


> What is going on over here on the Marriott Board ?
> There seems to be alot of whining going on about how the game has changed and people aren't happy about it.
> Yes, i know the Marriott no longer owns the timeshare group.
> Yes , I know that the Marriott is now offering a point system rather than the week system of old.
> ...



Are you sure you wrote that, Jim? For a second, I thought I was reading a recent post of mine. Yes, I remember the good ole days. But I'm still just fine with what we have. No whining here. 

Wanna talk about drastic change and a true legitimate reason for whining (yet I don't hear it)? Yes, that's not the Marriott timeshare company MVCI, but the United States of America in the last few years. Now THAT'S seriously worth worrying and whining about, but I don't see it so much. Timeshares??? Not a biggie in the grand scheme of things. 

Anyway, thanks...great, great post, as always!


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## dougp26364 (Apr 27, 2012)

IMHO, timesharing is all about flexablity. The game has changed often since our original purchase in 1998. Marriott has been consistant since our first Marriott purchase in 2001 and it was something people had counted on. 

But things change. Marriott weeks were getting pretty expensive. Other developers had points products that were more flexable and more attractive to buyers than the old Marriott weeks system. Developers were going to internal exchange systems and getting away from external exchange systems. Marriott HAD to change. 

Personally, I think Marriott could have done a better job, but my opinion is tainted by what I'm accustomed too with my other points based ownerships. I would have prefered something more like a points overlay system vs the nearly total overhaul that Marriott decided upon. 

There's going to be a lot of crying and nashing of teeth for a while as owners figure out the new landscape. What worked last year might not work next year. Exchanging in the weeks system is likely to change because the inventory is shared with trust based ownership. There are not different classes of ownership and different levels with premier and premier plus owners. Resorts are going to have to figure out unit placement and unit placement will be disrupted from what it was in the past because of nightly reservations.

Many things have changed and there is very good reason for whinning.


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## 4Reliefnow (Apr 27, 2012)

*2008 Buehler Vineyards Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon*

This wine is noted as a rare effort to bring great quality at affordable price.

Marriott had a philosophy of bringing great quality at an affordable price.  the DC Points program is more like the Sports Agents that Ferris Bueller quit:  DC will get you the big contract, but, they will exact a heavy price in the DC Point 14% skim.

What I love about DC:
Get a one bedroom after the children leave home (hopefully until the grand-kids can come along)
Go for 3 days or  9 days for more flexible vacations
Upgrade my Ocean Pointe 2br OV to a 1br OF. or a 2br OF with a little extra DC.
Lock-off the unwanted platinum studio and trade without II fee for a Gold 2br in a 2br only resort

What I hate about DC, The ugly rash clearly visible on its face: THE SKIM
I go nuts thinking about trading my Plat Grande Vista for 2,775 DC Points and the list price for the week is 3,175.  This is the Agent who is always taking 14 %  (3,75 to reserve a 2,775 week = 114%)

It also leads me to think the "New Direction" of Marriott DC is flawed.  My Grande Vista week now sells for around $3,000.  Points required to reserve it for a new-to-Marriott DC Trust points buyer cost $30,000 and have a maintenance fee of (3,175 * .45)  $1,425.  Now, you get great flexibility for that $30,000.  But, it becomes even more clear that you must be "Certified by TUG as totally Nuts" to buy new DC points.  

I am going to start a separate thread which compares the cost of buying new DC Points with renting the extra from someone else.  I think TUG can do a great service by recommending that people enroll their legacy point sin DC before the price increase in June.  Continue to use your weeks and trade on II if you want.  But increase the worldwide inventory of legacy points now and rent them to people so they don't need to buy new trust points.


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## Old Hickory (Apr 27, 2012)

Well Jim, that's where we are today as a society and I hope it's not the new normal.

I came to TUG BBS a few years ago because it was an open forum of like people who wanted to share their experiences and offer their tips on how best to use Marriott timeshare ownership.   More proactive.  And I think it's mostly still that, but yes, it's gotten a bit more self centered and reactive/defensive.


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## KarenP (Apr 27, 2012)

I've been a member of TUG since before it changed to the new format in 2005.    Believe me, the so called "whining" comes and goes and actually assists in one's thought process concerning using timeshares over the long run.


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## rsackett (Apr 27, 2012)

I think some whining is understandable.

If I had bought from Marriott and the salesman told me "Buy this lock-off, split it each year, then trade using the Marriott priority into two bedrooms at any Marriott throughout the world!", I would be whining too.  For Marriott to now say that the new system will prevent owners from "Cheating" the system, when that is how they sold the system deserves some whine!

Ray


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## wuv pooh (Apr 27, 2012)

4Reliefnow said:


> What I hate about DC, The ugly rash clearly visible on its face: THE SKIM
> I go nuts thinking about trading my Plat Grande Vista for 2,775 DC Points and the list price for the week is 3,175.  This is the Agent who is always taking 14 %  (3,75 to reserve a 2,775 week = 114%)



I still don't get this  It has been discussed ad nauseum, but any exchange system has skim - it is required to run the system.  All we have done is change currency from cash to points.

Assuming your MF is ~ $1,000 then points cost you ~ $.36

375 x $.36 = $135 vs. an II exchange fee of $119

Whether you think this is a good deal or not is up to you and your individual specifics.  The base fee is higher than the II base fee, but includes lockoff fees and change fees so I consider that a wash.  Again, that varies by person.

For my weeks the cost of the skim is cheaper than II exchange fees so I am happy  

Either way, not something I would let stick in my craw.  The thing that gets me is that I lost about 1/3rd of my previous value because I can't consistently get the uptrades that I did for 10 years, but it is hard to me to complain that I now have trouble trading my Harbour Lake Gold week for Grande Ocean Platinum Oceanfront


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## normab (Apr 27, 2012)

We weren't thrilled at first when the DC came out.  However, we have learned to use it to our advantage, and now we are glad it exists.  However, I can understand why others are not happy with it.  

My sister owns 2 Marriotts and is now thinking about joining with the impending price increase.  I was explaining to her how she could use it to her advantage.  However, it will take her alot longer than us to recoup the joining fee, since she doesn't have lock-offs and that helped us immensely in breaking even quickly.

And while I believe some trading availability has been affected,  trading has always been about flexibility, no trade is ever guaranteed.

So, I can understand why people may whine, and this is a great place for people to vent.  When others respond, the original posters can learn and maybe be less disgruntled!  I learned most of my knowledge about the system here on TUG--certainly not from salespeople!!!   

So I think it's okay if people share their frustration.  

Just my thoughts... 

Norma


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## Smooth Air (Apr 27, 2012)

Hello, Tuggers!

Is there a TUG Sticky or some place where the  "New System"/The Points System/DC is succinctly explained to Owners like me who need to get up to speed? I was following along in the beginning, got confused, did nothing and am now wondering when I read this thread if I have severely messed up.

Smooth Air


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## wuv pooh (Apr 27, 2012)

Smooth Air said:


> Hello, Tuggers!
> 
> Is there a TUG Sticky or some place where the  "New System"/The Points System/DC is succinctly explained to Owners like me who need to get up to speed? I was following along in the beginning, got confused, did nothing and am now wondering when I read this thread if I have severely messed up.
> 
> Smooth Air



Sue made a pretty comprehensive thread that should help you out.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168842


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## Janette (Apr 27, 2012)

Three weeks on St. Thomas, at Oceana Palms now, headed to Crystal Shores Sunday , at Grande Ocean in June, visit Barony and GO when I wish with day passes. You won't hear this lady whinning. I'm getting my money's worth! Jim Bres, was your computer hacked. We got a strange e-mail from you this week. That brings me to the point of all the great people I meet on my vacations. There is a couple here that we met on ST and another couple from ST will be at CS next week.


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## JBRES1 (Apr 28, 2012)

Janette said:


> Three weeks on St. Thomas, at Oceana Palms now, headed to Crystal Shores Sunday , at Grande Ocean in June, visit Barony and GO when I wish with day passes. You won't hear this lady whinning. I'm getting my money's worth! Jim Bres, was your computer hacked. We got a strange e-mail from you this week. That brings me to the point of all the great people I meet on my vacations. There is a couple here that we met on ST and another couple from ST will be at CS next week.




Janette,

You better not whine.  You and Tommy have the system worked out quite well if you ask me.

As to being hacked, I sure was.

Just got back into my e-mail this afternoon.

Thanks, Jim


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## Luckybee (Apr 28, 2012)

JBRES1

A bit off topic but....did you happen to use the public computers at Frenchmans cove ? I ask because when dh and I returned from FC last May our home computer email had been hacked and I wondered about the connection. If you did probably a good FYI for others because I'd have to think it may be more than a coincidence.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 28, 2012)

Luckybee said:


> JBRES1
> 
> A bit off topic but....did you happen to use the public computers at Frenchmans cove ? I ask because when dh and I returned from FC last May our home computer email had been hacked and I wondered about the connection. If you did probably a good FYI for others because I'd have to think it may be more than a coincidence.



This is a very valid concern when using public computers.  Just like using public restrooms.

Here are some basic safety tips from Microsoft: http://www.microsoft.com/security/online-privacy/public-pc.aspx

Some additional things you can do to prevent this include:

1. Work from a Flash Drive
2. Make all your browser sessions "InPrivate" browsing sessions so that the computer you are using does not store any data whatsoever.
3. Restart the computer prior to leaving the terminal to make double sure everything is erased.

Hope you have recovered from your e-mail being hacked.

Regards,


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## FlyerBobcat (Apr 28, 2012)

FT,  Thanks for the tips...  A few questions/comments below.



FractionalTraveler said:


> This is a very valid concern when using public computers.  Just like using public restrooms.
> 
> Here are some basic safety tips from Microsoft: http://www.microsoft.com/security/online-privacy/public-pc.aspx
> 
> ...


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 29, 2012)

FlyerBobcat,

1. It’s very easy to run your email and web browser session from a flash disk.  You are then only using the public computer for a connection to the internet and no traces of your footprints are left.  This also allows you to encrypt the communications stream which is passing your data.  Check out this example: http://portableapps.com/

2. Some MVCI properties don't always use IE for the web browser and you are correct, who knows the version they are running.  It’s really not important if you run the apps from your flash drive.  You bypass the public computer software altogether.

3. If you use a public computer, your browser session temporarily stores all session variables and states in files and certain memory locations.  If I restart the computer all this is wiped out.

4. Use a personal smartphone or tablet to read your email and browse the web.  Avoid those public computers altogether if possible.


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## bogey21 (Apr 29, 2012)

rsackett said:


> If I had bought from Marriott and the salesman told me "Buy this lock-off, split it each year, then trade using the Marriott priority into two bedrooms at any Marriott throughout the world!", I would be whining too.  For Marriott to now say that the new system will prevent owners from "Cheating" the system, when that is how they sold the system deserves some whine!



I think this hits the nail right on the head.  When I bought my first Marriotts (Sabal Palms pre construction and Monarch) I was sold on the Resale and Rental Programs.  Then when it suited Marriott "Corporate" they changed the programs making them almost worthless.

George


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## dioxide45 (Apr 29, 2012)

*Whining*

I guess it is all about perspective. If you didn't like that people were commonly trading a 1BR and a studio for two 2BR units and you thought this was some huge injustice, then you see these comments as whining. If you are from the perspective where you commonly did these types of trades in the past and they are now waining, it is a valid complaint.

Just because someone bought units to use half the time at their home resort doesn't mean that everyone else needs to have done the same or bought for the wrong reasons when they intended to trade almost 100% of the time. There is a reason exchange companies are out there.

We all come to this board to learn how to most maximize our usage. Saying people are whining when brining up issues they are seeing when trying to make use of their weeks similar to how they have done so in the past seems to be more or a way to stifle their opinions than letting them feel open to express their frustrations.


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## MOXJO7282 (Apr 29, 2012)

I do see alot more "complaining" about Marriott since the DC because so many that were taking advantage of the upgrade trading "perk" no longer can so it's natural they're not going to be happy. 

However I've also seen many that have proclaimed success with the DC, more than I thought there would be, so much so that IMHO *overall you'd have to say the conversion to the points program has been more of a positive than a negative.
*
For us, even though I think I'll be enrolling my dev weeks before the June deadline, the DC has been in-consequential and we think Marriott remaining a great vacation program.


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## JBRES1 (Apr 29, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> I guess it is all about perspective. If you didn't like that people were commonly trading a 1BR and a studio for two 2BR units and you thought this was some huge injustice, then you see these comments as whining. If you are from the perspective where you commonly did these types of trades in the past and they are now waining, it is a valid complaint.
> 
> Just because someone bought units to use half the time at their home resort doesn't mean that everyone else needs to have done the same or bought for the wrong reasons when they intended to trade almost 100% of the time. There is a reason exchange companies are out there.
> 
> We all come to this board to learn how to most maximize our usage. Saying people are whining when brining up issues they are seeing when trying to make use of their weeks similar to how they have done so in the past seems to be more or a way to stifle their opinions than letting them feel open to express their frustrations.




HI,

I am from the school of if you can get a 2 bdr unit for a studio, thats great.
But , I am also from the school of you purchased a 2 bdr unit, and you shouldn't expect to get something more for your unit all of the time.

When we were able to uptrade in season or size, that was great.  I used the system as best as i could to go on more vacations.

What gets me is when people expect to get a much better trade than they are willing to give up.


Lets face it, not all timeshares and timeshare weeks are equal .
You can't expect to get a prime Hawaii week using a bronze / low season week.  Sure sometimes it may happen, but don't expect it.  And, don't bitch about not getting it because you had in the past.  Like in the Lion King movie, "whats in the past is in the past, and you can't change it "

When you start to think about a trade, go to the Marriott hotel website and look to see what the rental price if for where you want to go. Then look to see what the rental price is for the week you are willing to give up in exchange .   Or go to the DC point site to see what the values are for each of the units you are looking for and giving up.

The game has changed, and now the true values of the timeshare weeks are getting a little clearer.  People that purchased on the faith that they would be able to up trade because the sales person told them they would be able to should be upset.  They should be upset with themselves because itf it in't in print, it isn't included.

Jim Breslin


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## dioxide45 (Apr 29, 2012)

Jim,

I think for me it comes down more to what you and I are defining as *whining*. The thread that I think sparked your post was the very very very disappointed thread. I don't necessarily see this as whining. The OP had successfully gotten that same exchange the past three tries. I see nothing wrong with them coming here and sharing their experience, it only helps them and us to better understand what is changing in the MVCI game. They had reason to be disappointed. What they had come to expect wasn't working now. Their post gives others a better idea of what to expect in the future so we don't whine when we try something similar.

Sure they were shooting for a prime summer week, but were offering up a prime DSVII week (albeit a 1BR). They were successful before. There are a lot of other details that we don't know. When did they make their request and how long had they been waiting? My guess is that the trade would have likely still happened, just perhaps much later than usual as MVCI seems to be doing more late bulk banks than they did before DC.

Using DC point costs as a similar comparison is not very good either. Over the last two years I would be negative over 10,000 DC points if I were to have gone through DC for all my trades instead of II (and I still have two weeks sitting on deposit in II). That means I would have had to buy/rent 5,000 points per year just to get the same trades. In II I am usually requesting low/shoulder season weeks while giving them a high demand gold week. Usually trading a 1BR to a 2BR and a studio to a 2BR or sometimes a 1BR. I don't know why everyone seems to always think that is an up trade. II is getting a good week while giving me what most people don't want. Obviously II sees that as equal or they wouldn't have given it to me. It seems that MVCI has overvalued many of their off season weeks in DC point allocations as compared to what is still rather easy in II.

As for comparing rental prices, there is a big difference. II doesn't pay anything to acquire the weeks that they offer up for exchange, in fact people pay II just to be members to GIVE their weeks to II for free. Then II charges people again to pull weeks out. They have little cost for their inventory. The main measure that II seems to II is the TDI. There is more, but that is all they advertise. I don't think rental cost is a good comparison at all.

All that said though, I don't think we should accuse anyone of *whining*, as that does nothing to make them want to share future experiences. Those experience, as much as we may have liked or not liked what they got in the past, are still very valuable to all of us. We don't have to agree on this, just sharing my opinion on the matter.


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## csalter2 (Apr 29, 2012)

*No, it's whining.*

I have posted pretty much the same thing as Jim Bres on several occasions on this board and other timeshare boards. People "whine" or if you want to use the word complain about their timeshares so much when in my opinion they should not. 

There are some who complain due to a lack of knowledge or pure ignorance. There are others who complain because others are complaining and figure they should complain too. I do see many of the complaints are by those who are having difficulty with change. They are used to getting more than what they give up and want to continue that pattern. Their sentiment is, "How dare Marriott stop giving me impose rules that may stop me from getting a two bedroom platinum for my studio white season." 

It is this entitlement attitude that disturbs and annoys me. I always say read your contract/areement that you signed with Marriott and if you see and inconsistency then complain. I am so tired of hearing people talking about class action lawsuits when Marriott is not even taking anything away from them. It's something they have a choice to have. I believe that people should go by the old television commercial that said, "Try it, you'll like it." They just might.


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## ilene13 (Apr 29, 2012)

JBRES1 said:


> HI,
> 
> I am from the school of if you can get a 2 bdr unit for a studio, thats great.
> But , I am also from the school of you purchased a 2 bdr unit, and you shouldn't expect to get something more for your unit all of the time.
> ...



Not all of the weeks were given their true value.  I only get 2900 point per week from my Aruba weeks, but if you want to use DC points to go there when I do,it is over 4000 points.  It is appalling.  I told a salesman at Surfwatch that my 13500 points would not give me 4 platinum weeks anywhere.   He told me I could go to HH for 2 months in the winter.  Big deal who wants to.
Carlito this is NOT an entitlement issue.  I own at 2 top Marriott resorts during platinum season (Aruba Ocean Club-3 wks and Surfwatch 1 wk 3 bedroom).  It is a issue of what is equitable.
I am not whining as I never exchange my Marriott weeks.


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## ilene13 (Apr 29, 2012)

Sorry this was a duplicate posting


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 29, 2012)

ilene13,

Do you think it may be possible in the future that these point allocations may be re-assessed based upon travel patterns, points usage, popularity, etc. just like the MR program does every few years?


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## GregT (Apr 30, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> ilene13,
> 
> Do you think it may be possible in the future that these point allocations may be re-assessed based upon travel patterns, points usage, popularity, etc. just like the MR program does every few years?



Personally, I do not believe the point allocations will change very much.

We may see point requirements changing within a specific property (as in 200 more points are needed to reserve Presidents week but it's offset by 50 points less to reserve four other weeks).

I think current properties will remain consistent in total.

I also do not believe there will be point escalation like we've seen with Marriott Reward Points.

MRPs are simply a perk that Marriott gives to us -- it costs us nothing to get this and it is up to Marriott to determine what we should receive.  They could cancel the entire program without obligation.

Timeshare points are different -- and Marriott merely manages the program. 

I do believe as new properties are introduced (if ever) they will get higher point allocations -- this is a way for Marriott to game the system -- by introducing a new property in Vail and giving it Lahaina Villas types of point requirements -- even if not that caliber.

Time will tell and we will see -- but I believe the Legacy 53 properties will be basically consistent with current point requirements.

Best,

Greg


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## csalter2 (Apr 30, 2012)

ilene13 said:


> Not all of the weeks were given their true value.  I only get 2900 point per week from my Aruba weeks, but if you want to use DC points to go there when I do,it is over 4000 points.  It is appalling.  I told a salesman at Surfwatch that my 13500 points would not give me 4 platinum weeks anywhere.   He told me I could go to HH for 2 months in the winter.  Big deal who wants to.
> Carlito this is NOT an entitlement issue.  I own at 2 top Marriott resorts during platinum season (Aruba Ocean Club-3 wks and Surfwatch 1 wk 3 bedroom).  It is a issue of what is equitable.
> I am not whining as I never exchange my Marriott weeks.



I must admit that the 1100 point discrepancy for the platinum Aruba weeks does not seem fair since Aruba from what I am lead to believe is a very high demand area.  

I am not talking about those who are looking like for like. I am talking about those who whine about trading low demand studios for high demand 1 and 2 bedrooms. Not only do they whine, but they feel it is expected. That's very different to me than your situation.

You should still be able to use your weeks through II which is a consolation. You can use it the old way.


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## answeeney (Apr 30, 2012)

ilene13 said:


> Not all of the weeks were given their true value.  I only get 2900 point per week from my Aruba weeks, but if you want to use DC points to go there when I do,it is over 4000 points.  It is appalling.  I told a salesman at Surfwatch that my 13500 points would not give me 4 platinum weeks anywhere.   He told me I could go to HH for 2 months in the winter.  Big deal who wants to.
> Carlito this is NOT an entitlement issue.  I own at 2 top Marriott resorts during platinum season (Aruba Ocean Club-3 wks and Surfwatch 1 wk 3 bedroom).  It is a issue of what is equitable.
> I am not whining as I never exchange my Marriott weeks.



I hadn't appreciated that there was such a large discrepancy between points allocated and those needed to book in the case of some weeks. If I was in your position I think I would feel entitled to a bit of a whinge. However, I really don't think that the difference in your case is down to a Marriott skim (please someone correct me if I am wrong). It is Marriott's attempt at allocating points according to demand and so I assume some other weeks in Aruba cost less to secure than the points allocated to them resulting in winners and losers. This is not an ideal situation and presumably reflects some poor decisons over assigning weeks to seasons when the resort was first developed.

However, what is important to appreciate is that you are still entitled to book your existing week and so you have not lost your core entitlement. You could even argue that the high points cost for the week you customarily book benefits you to some extent as it cools demand from other people booking on points and gives you - a weeks owner - a better chance of snagging it. Small consolation maybe, but it shouldn't be overlooked.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 30, 2012)

GregT said:


> Personally, I do not believe the point allocations will change very much.
> 
> We may see point requirements changing within a specific property (as in 200 more points are needed to reserve Presidents week but it's offset by 50 points less to reserve four other weeks).
> 
> ...



Greg,

In general I tend to agree with your assessment.

I do believe these point requirements will change in the future.  I also think it will take some time to gather the usage data required to make such decisions.  My personal take is that within 5 years of DC usage we may see such changes.

The past 2 years have been spend trying to enroll legacy customers so that dataset is not as powerful as the next 2-3 years when the DC has stabilized its enrollment base and more educated members make their yearly elections.

Not every member will elect DC points each year so that is a factor as well affecting the data.  That is why I think another 2-3 years may be warranted.

Which of the two numbers will they change? (1) The points required to reserve or (2) The points allocated to the unit owned by legacy owners.

I'm guessing (1) will be changed first and most frequently.  (2) may be adjusted sometime in the future either as a "One-time" event or at Marriott's discretion.

As far as new build-outs of properties, I don’t expect that anytime soon as well.  What I do think is entirely probable within the next 24 months is additional partnerships and strategic acquisitions to enhance the DC so that more points are sold.


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## m61376 (Apr 30, 2012)

answeeney said:


> I hadn't appreciated that there was such a large discrepancy between points allocated and those needed to book in the case of some weeks. If I was in your position I think I would feel entitled to a bit of a whinge. However, I really don't think that the difference in your case is down to a Marriott skim (please someone correct me if I am wrong). It is Marriott's attempt at allocating points according to demand and so I assume some other weeks in Aruba cost less to secure than the points allocated to them resulting in winners and losers. This is not an ideal situation and presumably reflects some poor decisons over assigning weeks to seasons when the resort was first developed.
> 
> However, what is important to appreciate is that you are still entitled to book your existing week and so you have not lost your core entitlement. You could even argue that the high points cost for the week you customarily book benefits you to some extent as it cools demand from other people booking on points and gives you - a weeks owner - a better chance of snagging it. Small consolation maybe, but it shouldn't be overlooked.


Aruba Plat. weeks (and some other property weeks as well) were not allocated enough points to book a single week in their season. They were not allocated enough points to book properties that Marriott itself charges half to two-thirds the rental rate for. So in Aruba, and several other resorts, it is not merely that some weeks cost more and some less so that it almost evens out. You are right, in some resorts that's the case, but in others, it doesn't hold true.

Marriott's calculation were based on timeshare owners' demand, and they contend that timeshare owners are different from the general populace, so that timeshare owners' demand is different from rental users' demand, which is fair market demand as reflected on rentals at Marriott.com. Thus, there were some weeks that were severely undervalued relative to what the rental market reflects, while others did relatively well. Thus, imho of course, the DC doesn't equalize things- just sets up a different scale of inequities. Over time, as Dioxide has posted, posters on Tug will help us best assess the ways to maximize benefits from the new system, recognizing, in a sense, that one person's loss is another's gain if they play the system right.


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## answeeney (Apr 30, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Greg,
> 
> In general I tend to agree with your assessment.
> 
> ...



I know I'm not GregT but here's my two penny worth.

As Greg already said, the points per property probably won't change much if at all. Any changes are likely to be just shuffling them around different weeks/views to even out demand. That means neither 1 nor 2, in terms of 'totals', will change but there might be minor tweeks within the totals.

As for Greg's point about new properties being given higher points values - I agree to some extent but there is a limit to which this can be done. In the short term, newer properties can be more attractive on account of 'newness' but if not backed up by genuinely better luxory/facilties/location then a policy of incremental points inflation would eventually run into trouble on two counts.

Firstly, the newness factor alone would be temporary and would put the system increasingly out of balance as members would soon realise that they could get much better value from older properties that have been well maintained.

Secondly, as the number of new properties increases lots of small increments would accumulate into a big increase. The Trustee overseeing the trust holdings presumably has a fiduciary duty to the trust owners and so could not allow new property to be introduced at an inflated valuation.


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## answeeney (Apr 30, 2012)

m61376 said:


> Aruba Plat. weeks (and some other property weeks as well) were not allocated enough points to book a single week in their season. They were not allocated enough points to book properties that Marriott itself charges half to two-thirds the rental rate for. So in Aruba, and several other resorts, it is not merely that some weeks cost more and some less so that it almost evens out. You are right, in some resorts that's the case, but in others, it doesn't hold true.
> 
> Marriott's calculation were based on timeshare owners' demand, and they contend that timeshare owners are different from the general populace, so that timeshare owners' demand is different from rental users' demand, which is fair market demand as reflected on rentals at Marriott.com. Thus, there were some weeks that were severely undervalued relative to what the rental market reflects, while others did relatively well. Thus, imho of course, the DC doesn't equalize things- just sets up a different scale of inequities. Over time, as Dioxide has posted, posters on Tug will help us best assess the ways to maximize benefits from the new system, recognizing, in a sense, that one person's loss is another's gain if they play the system right.



I own an Ocean Point Gold week and I wasn't allocated enough points to secure any week in my season so that in itself isn't enough to convince me the allocations are unfair. In my case the difference is 200 points which is the notorious skim which I see as the cost of the extra flexibilty I get via DC.

I do though find it surprising that the Aruba Platinum owners are all in that position. A previous poster mentioned getting 2900 for their unit whilst a week in their season cost over 4000 points. I don't know the specifics but taking a 1 bed OV at Ocean Club as an example, this costs 4075 points during Christmas week and 2750 in January - both are platinum weeks. Okay, I am being somewhat selective with my facts but I can't help feeling others may be doing the same to bolster their greivance.


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## Cmore (Apr 30, 2012)

Wasn't there a chart built showing the total value of the DC points within a season at the various resorts and the DC points given for a week?   If you divided up the # of weeks in a season by its total points you came up with the average points to reserve and could compare that with the points given.

I can't find it, but I thought someone had done the work and made it available.  There is a certain amount of skim and that can be attributed to a degree to the flexibility granted as answeeney noted.   If I remember correctly the skim on my resorts/seasons was roughly 7%.   

I consider the DC just another option for my use, I use it when it is to my advantage and use II when that works out best.  I took points for '12 and will again for '13, but that is because I had some deposits in II.  Beyond that I am not sure what I'll do.  I guess I'll make that decision when I get there.

Certainly Marriott could have rolled this out better, and not alienated a good chunk of loyal customers. Over time I think things will work just fine for everyone, simply because the base of owners is so large there will be plenty of trading opportunities in both the DC and II.


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## Luckybee (Apr 30, 2012)

answeeney said:


> I own an Ocean Point Gold week and I wasn't allocated enough points to secure any week in my season so that in itself isn't enough to convince me the allocations are unfair. In my case the difference is 200 points which is the notorious skim which I see as the cost of the extra flexibilty I get via DC.
> 
> I do though find it surprising that the Aruba Platinum owners are all in that position. A previous poster mentioned getting 2900 for their unit whilst a week in their season cost over 4000 points. I don't know the specifics but taking a 1 bed OV at Ocean Club as an example, this costs 4075 points during Christmas week and 2750 in January - both are platinum weeks. Okay, I am being somewhat selective with my facts but I can't help feeling others may be doing the same to bolster their greivance.



All I can tell you is that for our weeks which are Gold season 1 bdrm the only time frame that we get equivalent points for is between Aug and Nov 1. In other words that would be the only time we could get into our resort with the points provided.  This just happens to be the only time frame that the resort isnt busy at all. This is the only time frame that many staff are allowed to take holidays. This is the time frame when few wish to travel to Aruba. I'll repeat what I said on another thread....there is virtually nothing we can do with our weeks worth doing within the DC setup ! And this is with a Caribbean property that imho is quite popular .
We have since the building opened ALWAYS gone end of Nov/early Dec. for 2 or 3 weeks. I just worked out the point skim for our weeks for the time frame that we have ALWAYS used our weeks(and as a matter of fact for any othe the time frame that runs from April to Dec...other than the 2 months mentioned above) and it works out to 14.86 %...pretty heavy skim imho(and if im not mistaken its even higher for platinum weeks) ! More importantly and what makes no sense at all is the point valuation given to owners is much less compared to other properties where the nightly(by Marriott) or weekly(private) rental rates are less than at the OC.


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## answeeney (Apr 30, 2012)

Luckybee said:


> All I can tell you is that for our weeks which are Gold season 1 bdrm the only time frame that we get equivalent points for is between Aug and Nov 1. In other words that would be the only time we could get into our resort with the points provided.  This just happens to be the only time frame that the resort isnt busy at all. This is the only time frame that many staff are allowed to take holidays. This is the time frame when few wish to travel to Aruba. I'll repeat what I said on another thread....there is virtually nothing we can do with our weeks worth doing within the DC setup ! And this is with a Caribbean property that imho is quite popular .
> We have since the building opened ALWAYS gone end of Nov/early Dec. for 2 or 3 weeks. I just worked out the point skim for our weeks for the time frame that we have ALWAYS used our weeks(and as a matter of fact for any othe the time frame that runs from April to Dec...other than the 2 months mentioned above) and it works out to 14.86 %...pretty heavy skim imho(and if im not mistaken its even higher for platinum weeks) ! More importantly and what makes no sense at all is the point valuation given to owners is much less compared to other properties where the nightly(by Marriott) or weekly(private) rental rates are less than at the OC.



Yee gads! 14.86%! Methinks there is something rotten in the state of Aruba. Seriously, though that does look very high and it all looks very odd for you poor Aruba owners. I would though give a gentle challange to your calculation insofar as you use just the three weeks that you customarily book. The hard truth is that the correct calculation would be to aggregate all of the points (both costs and allocations) for platinum weeks to work out the skim.


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## ilene13 (Apr 30, 2012)

answeeney said:


> I own an Ocean Point Gold week and I wasn't allocated enough points to secure any week in my season so that in itself isn't enough to convince me the allocations are unfair. In my case the difference is 200 points which is the notorious skim which I see as the cost of the extra flexibilty I get via DC.
> 
> I do though find it surprising that the Aruba Platinum owners are all in that position. A previous poster mentioned getting 2900 for their unit whilst a week in their season cost over 4000 points. I don't know the specifics but taking a 1 bed OV at Ocean Club as an example, this costs 4075 points during Christmas week and 2750 in January - both are platinum weeks. Okay, I am being somewhat selective with my facts but I can't help feeling others may be doing the same to bolster their greivance.



The reason I mention the 2900 points vs the 4075 points is that we go to Aruba annually (for 27 years) weeks 51 and 52.  I am not looking at any other timeframe.


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## answeeney (Apr 30, 2012)

ilene13 said:


> The reason I mention the 2900 points vs the 4075 points is that we go to Aruba annually (for 27 years) weeks 51 and 52.  I am not looking at any other timeframe.



Same point as I made to Luckbee really. You have to aggregate all the weeks in your season not just the ones you are used to booking. I'm impressed that you have managed to snag weeks 51 and 52 for 27 years.


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## Cmore (Apr 30, 2012)

Luckybee said:


> ...We have since the building opened ALWAYS gone end of Nov/early Dec. for 2 or 3 weeks. I just worked out the point skim for our weeks for the time frame that we have ALWAYS used our weeks(and as a matter of fact for any othe the time frame that runs from April to Dec...other than the 2 months mentioned above) and it works out to 14.86 %...pretty heavy skim imho(and if im not mistaken its even higher for platinum weeks) !... .



Luckybee,
Could well be that the allocation for your season/color/metal designation  doesn't make a lot of sense, probably just one more thing Marriott miscalulated on in this rollout.  However the proper way to evaluate the "skim" is the total points for all the weeks in the season divided by the number of weeks to get the average points for the season.  Your season includes all the weeks within it, not just the ones you choose to use.  If your resort is sold out, someone is having to take those weeks.  

One thing I think everyone can agree upon is that the brain wizards at Marriott did plenty of research in setting up the seasons (modeling, etc) to maximize revenue.  This was true of the weeks model and the DC point allocations.  While we all may not like how it was done, and likely can find plenty of inadequacies, there was some basis in revenue or usage patterns (likely both) that they were created on.  

Anyway, sounds like the weeks program fits your needs the best.  I hope you have continued success, at the end of the day that's all any of us want.


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## ilene13 (Apr 30, 2012)

answeeney said:


> Same point as I made to Luckbee really. You have to aggregate all the weeks in your season not just the ones you are used to booking. I'm impressed that you have managed to snag weeks 51 and 52 for 27 years.



The Ocean Club is not 27 years old.  It is about 13 years old.  Prior to that we stayed at the Hyatt.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 30, 2012)

Cmore said:


> Wasn't there a chart built showing the total value of the DC points within a season at the various resorts and the DC points given for a week?   If you divided up the # of weeks in a season by its total points you came up with the average points to reserve and could compare that with the points given.



The chart was created by DanCali, it was discussed in this thread. Here is a link to the chart.


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## Cmore (Apr 30, 2012)

Dioxide45,
Thanks for the link, and special thanks to DanCali for his efforts.  It may be of value to people interested in the DC/weeks seasonal values.  At the very least it provides an accurate tabulation of the "skim" as it relates to someone's season.   For my weeks it is 7%.   

I think the real value of being enrolled is the options I have.  As previously stated, I'll use II when that makes sense, and likely use the DC more as that fits our current needs better.  I don't consider this a "This or That" issue.  I like taking a bite out of both!  

Again, Thanks for taking the time to find this.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 30, 2012)

GregT said:


> Personally, I do not believe the point allocations will change very much.



Greg, I would tend to agree. Though the one thing that I do think we may see MVCI change in the future is the points differential between Sun-Thurs point requirements and vs. the Fri-Sat. That differential is huge IMO. Though I guess the data they gather over the first five years or so will prove that out and we will see which way they will go with it.

It would be great if they would simplify that crazy points chart some, but I don't expect that to happen.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 30, 2012)

csalter2 said:


> *No, it's whining.*



We can really call it whatever we like. However, I see it as important information that I and many others will need and use in the future as we learn more about how to get the most out of our timeshare use.

I get the opinion though that people want to stifle these voices by labeling them negatively. I don't know why but can only guess that there are some that seem to think that people have been taking advantage of the system and are now getting what has looong been coming to them and somehow they now deserve the *treatment* they are getting. Jealously, didn't take the time to learn how to do it themselves, though they HAD to buy where they wanted to travel? I really don't know.

This isn't what it should be about at all. This information is important to many people here and I don't plan to not speak up when I believe there are people trying to label the comments negatively in a way that IMO is meant to try to stifle those comments and prevent people from sharing this information in the future.


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## JBRES1 (May 1, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> We can really call it whatever we like. However, I see it as important information that I and many others will need and use in the future as we learn more about how to get the most out of our timeshare use.
> 
> I get the opinion though that people want to stifle these voices by labeling them negatively. I don't know why but can only guess that there are some that seem to think that people have been taking advantage of the system and are now getting what has looong been coming to them and somehow they now deserve the *treatment* they are getting. Jealously, didn't take the time to learn how to do it themselves, though they HAD to buy where they wanted to travel? I really don't know.
> 
> This isn't what it should be about at all. This information is important to many people here and I don't plan to not speak up when I believe there are people trying to label the comments negatively in a way that IMO is meant to try to stifle those comments and prevent people from sharing this information in the future.




HI,
I'm not trying to stifele the flow of information.
I think people need to  view the big uptrades they used to get were a bonus for knowing how to play the game.   The game has changed, and alot of the things we could do in the past are now gone.
Ppeople also have to remember that not all timeshares are equal.  A low week at a prime resort will trump a prime week at a mud swamp resort all day long. 
There are many colors of RED within the II system .  Take Orlando Vs Hilton Head Island.  The HHI prime (RED) week is of a much higher value than an a high (RED ) demand week in Orlando.  
HHI has a limited supply of high demand timeshare weeks, and they aren't going to be adding any more land on to the island any time soon.  Orlando can just keep building out farther and farther into the middle of the state.  The supply and demand works in HHI 's favor for trade value.

So , lets keep the flow of information coming, but don't whine when you don't get the big uptrades of old.

 PS: I have played the game, been there, done that,  got the tee shirt, and would like the game of old.  But it ain't going to happen, So lets move on.
Jim Breslin


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## Luckybee (May 1, 2012)

answeeney said:


> Yee gads! 14.86%! Methinks there is something rotten in the state of Aruba. Seriously, though that does look very high and it all looks very odd for you poor Aruba owners. I would though give a gentle challange to your calculation insofar as you use just the three weeks that you customarily book. The hard truth is that the correct calculation would be to aggregate all of the points (both costs and allocations) for platinum weeks to work out the skim.



Nope...my weeks are gold weeks....gold season runs about mid April until mid December ! One can work out an average but imho the avg. makes little sense for Gold in Aruba. Let me explain. There is much less demand for Aruba from beginning of Sept to end of Oct. These are the 2 months that get a majority of traders, renters etc. But the bottom line is those are the only 2 months that I could book with the point allocation I've been given. For the rest of the time period ie, part of April, and all of May, June, July, August, Nov, and part of Dec the skim is 14.86% for the 1 bdrm weeks. So for the majority of time in my own season that is my loss if I went DC....not just the 2 or 3 weeks that we normally go. I mean really....what relevance does the avg make if the majority of owners have a 14+ % loss for the times that the majority of owners of a particular season go.


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## Luckybee (May 1, 2012)

ilene13 said:


> The Ocean Club is not 27 years old.  It is about 13 years old.  Prior to that we stayed at the Hyatt.



LOL...have to wonder if we've met along the way....we use to do the Hyatt  before the OC was built


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## Luckybee (May 1, 2012)

Cmore said:


> Luckybee,
> Could well be that the allocation for your season/color/metal designation  doesn't make a lot of sense, probably just one more thing Marriott miscalulated on in this rollout.  However the proper way to evaluate the "skim" is the total points for all the weeks in the season divided by the number of weeks to get the average points for the season.  Your season includes all the weeks within it, not just the ones you choose to use.  If your resort is sold out, someone is having to take those weeks.



See my post to answeeney

We , like many other owners always go at the same time as I said before....never had a problem doing so...I cant possibly compare what I'd get for weeks that I would never in a million years use. It isnt for us an accurate comparison imho. That someone who is taking those weeks, hasnt been us, isnt us, and wouldnt be us. But when the majority of ones season is that deficient point wise thats simply wrong imho. It means that a majority of the week owners for that season are getting dinged 14.86% if they were to opt for points and imho that would be why you'll never see a great number of OC owners turning in their weeks for points and why many wont join DC.


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## answeeney (May 1, 2012)

Not a pefect analogy, but the debate about whether the DC allocations are 'fair' reminds me of the debate we have in the UK (and no doubt the US) about tax. In particular it reminded me of a tax blog I read yesterday's Daily Telegraph which in turn quoted from an email that had been doing the rounds (so apologies to anyone who has already read something similar). I've included an excerpt below. And the moral of the story is that everyone will do their own calculation of what is fair for them and if anyone else thinks the conclusions they draw are unfair for them then they just don't get it.

_the story concerns 10 drinkers in a bar who decide to settle their £100 weekly beer bill roughly the same way we pay our taxes. So, the first four men (the poorest) paid nothing; the fifth paid £1; the sixth £3; the seventh £7; the eighth £12; the ninth £18; and the 10th man, the richest, paid £59. 

Then the barman decided to give them a £20 discount for being good customers. The group wanted to continue to pay the new £80 bill the same way as before. While the first four men still drank for free, the other six divided up the £20 windfall by following the progressive principle of the tax system. So the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing, making a 100 per cent saving; the sixth man paid £2 instead of £3 (a 33 per cent saving); the seventh man paid £5 instead of £7 (a 28 per cent saving); the eighth £9 instead of £12 (a 25 per cent saving); and the ninth £14 instead of £18 (a 22 per cent saving). The 10th man paid £49 instead of £59 (a 16 per cent saving). 

The men then began to compare their savings. “I only got £1 out of the £20,” declared the sixth man. He pointed to the 10th man, “but he got £10 – the wealthy get all the breaks!” “Wait a minute,” said the first four men, “we didn’t get anything at all. This new system exploits the poor.” So the other nine men surrounded the 10th and beat him up. The next week he didn’t show for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when they came to pay, they discovered they didn’t have enough money between them to pay even half the bill. _


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## dioxide45 (May 1, 2012)

With the points charts, it seems that MVCI tried to fix what it thinks were it's mistakes when it originally seasoned many of their resorts. Of course the *mistakes* were to their advantage in many cases when they originally seasoned the resorts. So when they made the changes with the DC points chart re-seasoning, they made them to their advantage again.


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## Cmore (May 1, 2012)

answeeney said:


> Not a pefect analogy, but the debate about whether the DC allocations are 'fair' reminds me of the debate we have in the UK (and no doubt the US) about tax....  [/I]



answeeney & Luckybee,
I believe all that was being pointed out was the proper method to determine the skim for a particular timeframe.   Such as your funny analogy, the math is the math and yet some can find fault with it. 

That said, I certainly don't think anyone should do something that doesn't fit their particular situation.  Everyone has different needs and desires with their vacationing time, so what works well for one family is unpalatable to another.  

I'll give you another analogy:  My wife of 30 years is a profilic shopper, mathematically I should have dumped her years ago.  But as we all know math is only one way to look at things. :rofl: 

I hope you can continue to get the reservations you want and have many happy vacations.


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## answeeney (May 1, 2012)

Cmore said:


> answeeney & Luckybee,
> I believe all that was being pointed out was the proper method to determine the skim for a particular timeframe.   Such as your funny analogy, the math is the math and yet some can find fault with it.
> 
> That said, I certainly don't think anyone should do something that doesn't fit their particular situation.  Everyone has different needs and desires with their vacationing time, so what works well for one family is unpalatable to another.
> ...



We are as one on the math and it sounds like we married the same woman too.


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## DanCali (May 1, 2012)

wuv pooh said:


> ...but any exchange system has skim - it is required to run the system.



REALLY??

What other point exchange systems has more points going in than points coming out?

I also own a couple of Starwood and I guarantee you that my weeks get me the same number of points as it would require someone to exchange into them. 

Marriott chose to vary the points week by week but could still have awarded owners the average points required to book a week in their season (which would have guaranteed point in = points out). An enrollment fee + annual fee + hidden exchange fee (aka skim) seems a bit greedy to me - so I'm happy to rent my Marriott weeks when i don't use them and undercut Marriott's web prices by 30%.


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## puckmanfl (May 1, 2012)

good morning

Dan, welcome  back...it is a much better board when you are around!!!  Have you recently moved to Florida... maybe I am getting a little slow but I don't remember a Florida location for you!!!!

Tampa is home for me!!!!


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## DanCali (May 1, 2012)

puck - sent you a PM re location. 

Haven't been on the board much lately but it's good to see the chart is still useful after over 18 months!


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