# W. 57th St., NYC, Prices Paid, ROFR, and Hilton Club



## TheCryptkeeper (Nov 7, 2014)

Fellow Tuggers,

I'm considering purchasing a resale unit at W. 57th St. in NYC, but I can't find much information on prices paid and what has passed ROFR.  In September a respected resale agent told me they sell for around $4.50 per point.  By the beginning of November, the same agent said the prices had jumped to $9 per point to pass ROFR.  I know it's NYC, but a doubling in price in less than two months seems odd.  How often does Hilton change its ROFR threshold?  Does it apply it consistently?

NYC is our favorite destination and we go there often.  I stayed at the W. 57th St. location recently and loved it.  While staying there, I went to one of the owner updates.  I sat with a veteran sales person, numerous awards he had received from Hilton since 2006 on display around his desk. He explained that they're changing the nearby Hilton Club from RTU to a deeded ownership like W. 57th St.  He then looked at my paperwork and saw my existing ownership at the Flamingo was a resale purchase and commented, "You're really playing this."  He suddenly grew very impatient with me, said I could purchase 5000 deeded points at the Hilton Club for $30,000.  I told him I wasn't purchasing anything that day.  I had left within 15 minutes of my arrival.  However, 5000 points for $30,000 sounds reasonable if you can't buy W. 57th Street resale for under $9 per point without Hilton exercising ROFR.  I wonder if this sales person was being truthful.  Has anyone else received or paid a similar price for Hilton Club?


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## alwysonvac (Nov 8, 2014)

TheCryptkeeper said:


> Fellow Tuggers,
> 
> I'm considering purchasing a resale unit at W. 57th St. in NYC, but I can't find much information on prices paid and what has passed ROFR.  In September a respected resale agent told me they sell for around $4.50 per point.  By the beginning of November, the same agent said the prices had jumped to $9 per point to pass ROFR.  I know it's NYC, but a doubling in price in less than two months seems odd.  How often does Hilton change its ROFR threshold?  Does it apply it consistently?
> 
> NYC is our favorite destination and we go there often.  I stayed at the W. 57th St. location recently and loved it.  While staying there, I went to one of the owner updates.  I sat with a veteran sales person, numerous awards he had received from Hilton since 2006 on display around his desk. He explained that they're changing the nearby Hilton Club from RTU to a deeded ownership like W. 57th St.  He then looked at my paperwork and saw my existing ownership at the Flamingo was a resale purchase and commented, "You're really playing this."  He suddenly grew very impatient with me, said I could purchase 5000 deeded points at the Hilton Club for $30,000.  I told him I wasn't purchasing anything that day.  I had left within 15 minutes of my arrival.  However, 5000 points for $30,000 sounds reasonable if you can't buy W. 57th Street resale for under $9 per point without Hilton exercising ROFR.  I wonder if this sales person was being truthful.  Has anyone else received or paid a similar price for Hilton Club?



Sorry, I don't know what's currently going on with the Hilton NYC properties but I can point you to some of the previous threads. Perhaps you can PM some of the NYC owners listed in these old threads.

Buy back offers (from Aug 2014) - http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215132
Soliciting owners to change from RTU to perpetual deeds (from Feb 2014) -  http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206410
Took West 57th St Tour, now considering HCNY (from Oct 2013) - http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200689

Just keep in mind
- ROFR will change based on supply and demand
- Consider both the initial purchase price and ongoing maintenance fees
- None of the NYC Hilton properties offer partial or full kitchens

I know that Wyndham is now offering a property in NYC perhaps that is driving Hilton NYC ROFR prices up 
http://www.crainsnewyork.com/articl...30509967/midtown-hotel-to-become-a-time-share
http://www.wyndhammidtown45.com/


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## TheCryptkeeper (Nov 8, 2014)

Thanks, Alwysonvac for the pointers.  I have tried following the HGVC timeshare resale market for about eight months, but there's not much recent data on W. 57th St. or HCNY.   I wonder if others who have followed these or other resorts longer know if resale prices and Hilton ROFR thresholds  fluctuate much historically.


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## TheCryptkeeper (Nov 9, 2014)

Amisco stated in 2011 that dues at W. 57th Street were subsidized by Hilton.   Does anyone know if this is still the case?  If so, how much are they subsidized and until when?  I suspect that a rise in fees may influence resale value depending on how much they increase and how aggressively Hilton exercises ROFR.  From what I've read, Hilton is not always consistent when it comes to ROFR, perhaps because they are publically traded and need to meet shareholder expectations on a quarterly and annual basis.


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## brp (Nov 10, 2014)

TheCryptkeeper said:


> Thanks, Alwysonvac for the pointers.  I have tried following the HGVC timeshare resale market for about eight months, but there's not much recent data on W. 57th St. or HCNY.   I wonder if others who have followed these or other resorts longer know if resale prices and Hilton ROFR thresholds  fluctuate much historically.



If you look at Judi Kozlowski's site, for example, you'll find only 1 listing for all of New York City. There used to be more. I'm thinking that that's telling us something. I'm glad we bought at the beginning of the year (W. 57th) when we did. Although it seems that we could have gotten more by waiting longer to sell our HCNY back to Hilton. Who knew 

Cheers.


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## TheCryptkeeper (Nov 11, 2014)

It seems like a great resort to own and I envy you for purchasing when you did.  We didn't even discover timeshares until April of this year.  We were scheduled to attend an HGVC presentation in Orlando and I decided to investigate ahead of time, which is when I discovered TUG.  

By the time we went to the  timeshare presentation, we already had a contract to purchase HGVC Flamingo resale, and used the opportunity to learn more about how the system worked from the sales person.  

The poor sales rep didn't stand a chance trying to sell us 3400 EOY points for $16K when we had already purchased 4800 annual points for $4k resale.  We really felt sorry for her -- she had tried so hard to make the sale that we almost purchased out of pity.  

We played stupid (which is fairly easy for us) and at the end of the sales pitch, explained how we had two kids currently in college and didn't feel comfortable making the purchase at the time.  It was pretty high pressure, but my wife was adamant.


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## brp (Nov 11, 2014)

TheCryptkeeper said:


> It seems like a great resort to own and I envy you for purchasing when you did.  We didn't even discover timeshares until April of this year.  We were scheduled to attend an HGVC presentation in Orlando and I decided to investigate ahead of time, which is when I discovered TUG.
> 
> By the time we went to the  timeshare presentation, we already had a contract to purchase HGVC Flamingo resale, and used the opportunity to learn more about how the system worked from the sales person.
> 
> ...



We're currently in contract for Flamingo, although a different Vegas property might have been a better idea for us due to lower (by a little bit) MFs. We're going to use the points primarily in Hawai'i, so the actual location in Vegas is less important. We will go to Vegas as well 

I've found that playing smart, rather than stupid, works better with Hilton. We typically get out in like 45 minutes when they see that we know about resale and how much we can save. Also, we can demonstrate that, based on the way we travel, more points now wouldn't make sense. When they quickly see that we're not biters, they want done with us so that they can move onto the next person 

Cheers.


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## 1Kflyerguy (Nov 11, 2014)

TheCryptkeeper said:


> I suspect that a rise in fees may influence resale value depending on how much they increase and how aggressively Hilton exercises ROFR.  From what I've read, Hilton is not always consistent when it comes to ROFR, perhaps because they are publicly traded and need to meet shareholder expectations on a quarterly and annual basis.



I don't have any inside knowledge, but I suspect HGVC decisions about ROFR are based on how much inventory they have and how fast it selling more than than quarterly earnings.. 

My wife loves New York and it would be great to have access to a TS there, but every time i have looked at resale units the prices have been too high for the math to work out for us.  Being based in CA, i doubt we would get there often enough to justify the purchase price and annual MF..


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## TheCryptkeeper (Nov 11, 2014)

1Kflyerguy said:


> I don't have any inside knowledge, but I suspect HGVC decisions about ROFR are based on how much inventory they have and how fast it selling more than than quarterly earnings..



I would agree with that too.  There are probably a number of variables that factor into their calculus, supply and demand likely playing the largest role.


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## TheCryptkeeper (Nov 11, 2014)

brp said:


> I've found that playing smart, rather than stupid, works better with Hilton. We typically get out in like 45 minutes when they see that we know about resale and how much we can save. Also, we can demonstrate that, based on the way we travel, more points now wouldn't make sense. When they quickly see that we're not biters, they want done with us so that they can move onto the next person



I would agree, but we were eager to see developer prices primarily to reinforce our decision to purchase resale.  The presentation was educational as far as how their point system and RCI exchanges worked  -- at least from novices' perspectives, which we were at that time.


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## JohnPaul (Nov 11, 2014)

West 57th St should be nearly sold out so it seems likely that would up ROFR.  I'm headed there for Thanksgiving (I'm an owner) and looking forward to it.


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## TheCryptkeeper (Nov 11, 2014)

JohnPaul said:


> West 57th St should be nearly sold out so it seems likely that would up ROFR.  I'm headed there for Thanksgiving (I'm an owner) and looking forward to it.


Sounds like fun.  I'm envious.  I heard the ROFR has gone up, but maybe I'll get lucky.


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## tante (Nov 11, 2014)

Can someone tell me what ROFR stands for? Is it Right of first refusal?


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## SMHarman (Nov 11, 2014)

tante said:


> Can someone tell me what ROFR stands for? Is it Right of first refusal?


Yes that's right. 

Have other posters looked at yhe NY Times real estate section. Some units ate usually listed there.


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## 1Kflyerguy (Nov 12, 2014)

TheCryptkeeper said:


> I would agree, but we were eager to see developer prices primarily to reinforce our decision to purchase resale.  The presentation was educational as far as how their point system and RCI exchanges worked  -- at least from novices' perspectives, which we were at that time.




I agree you can learn things at the sales presentations, but the hard part can be figuring out what is a real benefit or feature vs something the salesperson is just promoting..  A few times i have had salespeople talk about new resorts, only to later figure out they don't exist or not really exactly as promised.


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## brp (Nov 12, 2014)

1Kflyerguy said:


> I agree you can learn things at the sales presentations, but the hard part can be figuring out what is a real benefit or feature vs something the salesperson is just promoting..  A few times i have had salespeople talk about new resorts, only to later figure out they don't exist or not really exactly as promised.



Very true. We toured W. 57th maybe 3 or so years ago. We actually decided to buy from the developer (I knew about resale, so not sure how this happened...maybe something in the coffee ).

The sales person said that they would likely be reversing the $85 cleaning fee for 3-day-or-fewer visits (all of our visits fit that). Well, it took a couple of months or working with them to find out that that just was not true. We were able to back out of the deal long after rescission because of this and actually bought HCNY from them at a discount at the time (since sold back to them).

But it made clear that they will sometimes (not always) say what they need to say...

Cheers.


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## MelanieB (Nov 12, 2014)

brp said:


> The sales person said that they would likely be reversing the $85 cleaning fee for 3-day-or-fewer visits (all of our visits fit that). Well, it took a couple of months or working with them to find out that that just was not true. We were able to back out of the deal long after rescission because of this and actually bought HCNY from them at a discount at the time (since sold back to them).



For what it's worth, it looks like they *have* gotten rid of the short-visit cleaning fee.  2013 program guide said this:

￼_Reservations at West 57th Street, by Hilton Club for 3 nights or less require an additional $85 cleaning fee payable upon check-in._

There is no similar mention in the 2014 guide.  Not that I can find, anyway.  Maybe someone who has visited recently can confirm.

Not this this refutes your general point of "sales people will say whatever they feel like".  And most people would not consider 3 years to be "soon" anyway.  It's just a change that I was interested to note, since New York is one of the few time share locations within reasonable driving distance of our home.  We visited for a couple of days in September 2013 (paid the cleaning fee!), and I expect we will take similar trips in the future.


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## TheCryptkeeper (Nov 12, 2014)

MelanieB said:


> For what it's worth, it looks like they *have* gotten rid of the short-visit cleaning fee.  2013 program guide said this:
> 
> ￼_Reservations at West 57th Street, by Hilton Club for 3 nights or less require an additional $85 cleaning fee payable upon check-in._
> 
> ...



I booked a reservation in October online using Revolution, and a notification of the fee for three nights or less appeared -- sorry.


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## brp (Nov 12, 2014)

TheCryptkeeper said:


> I booked a reservation in October online using Revolution, and a notification of the fee for three nights or less appeared -- sorry.



Yup. Two trips this year and two fees. I'm not holding my breath on this one 

Cheers.


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## MelanieB (Nov 13, 2014)

TheCryptkeeper said:


> I booked a reservation in October online using Revolution, and a notification of the fee for three nights or less appeared -- sorry.





brp said:


> Yup. Two trips this year and two fees. I'm not holding my breath on this one
> 
> Cheers.



Too bad.  I guess they just decided it didn't need to be explicitly listed in the fee schedule anymore.  Or it's there somewhere and I just can't find it.  Thanks for the clarifications!


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## TheCryptkeeper (Nov 15, 2014)

Can anyone shed light on resale demand for platinum studios  (5250 points) at this location given the high costs?


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## brp (Nov 15, 2014)

TheCryptkeeper said:


> Can anyone shed light on resale demand for platinum studios  (5250 points) at this location given the high costs?



Not directly. But I can indirectly say that Judi's site (http://www.judikoz.com/Search.aspx) has only 4 available, starting at $30K. When we bought, there were more available, some listed lower, but Judi told me that it would take about that to pass ROFR.

It's not high cost for New York accommodations in perpetuity. But you have to want to stay there and not use any of the points elsewhere.

We just bought a 5000 point Flamingo to use in Vegas and Hawai'i because it was not worth it to use NYC points.

Cheers.


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## TheCryptkeeper (Nov 15, 2014)

brp said:


> Not directly. But I can indirectly say that Judi's site (http://www.judikoz.com/Search.aspx) has only 4 available, starting at $30K. When we bought, there were more available, some listed lower, but Judi told me that it would take about that to pass ROFR.
> 
> It's not high cost for New York accommodations in perpetuity. But you have to want to stay there and not use any of the points elsewhere.
> 
> ...



We definitely want to visit NYC at least yearly, if not more frequently.  We own a 4800 point platinum Flamingo which we used 44 days from checkout to book  W. 57th St. It was a real pain in the a** to cobble together four consecutive days, incurring an additional fee at midnight each day to snatch an additional day ($228 total for four nights in late October).  We almost had to book a bed bug inn for our last night until an opening occurred at W. 57th St., two weeks from our arrival.  

We don't want to go through that again.  

ROFR seems to be a crap shoot -- although Hilton has been aggressive at this location recently.   Thresholds seem to fluctuate (perhaps due to supply and demand at the location).  We're hoping our pending contract for a 5250 annual studio passes.

Does anyone have recent ROFR information on W. 57th St. or other HGVC locations?


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## TheCryptkeeper (Nov 26, 2014)

W. 57th St. Current Developer prices via HGVC Direct Sales: 

Platinum Studio Plus 5250 points

Listing price $59,900
Minus owner discount (has to be approved) -$4,193
Owner price $55,707 + 50,000 bonus points

Gold Studio Plus 3750 points

Listing price $31,190
Minus owner promo this month -$1,560
Owner price $40,280 + 30,000 bonus Points

These are prices provided by Hilton Direct Sales.  I think they made a mistake with Gold Season figures.


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