# Wyndham must control the resale to shore up asset values!



## SNA27 (Nov 27, 2019)

Firstly, let me state that we enjoy our stay at Wyndham resorts. Far superior to any hotel! You would never know that in the current anti-timeshare hysteria. You would think they are flea-bitten ghettos full of pickpockets!

I have paid full freight on my points. I did score with 2 PICs, which I learnt about on this website one day too late after having purchased 175K Waikiki Beach-Walk at Kona in July 2018. Went back the next day and had to purchase 49K more to to add the 2 PICs. .. long story. I could have rescinded and acted like an UGLY BUYER. 

But, I am not into rescission! To rescind is to shirk my responsibility for my decision and admit that I was a fool who didn't know to walk away! My ignorance is no excuse and the manager there (Michael Neal Atkins) was more than helpful!

I resent the whole concept of Buyer's Remorse! When did the liberals get rid of the concept of Caveat Emptor and foist Buyer's Remorse in its place! Right of Rescission actually becomes a slimy sales tool that the unscrupulous sales scum use to exploit the indecisive gullible buyers!
If there was no right of rescission, there would be fewer ill-considered purchases by ill-qualified buyers! It's a psych-ops tool of the slimy salesmen!

I feel that Wyndham is not doing enough to shore up the resale value of my investments. There is something wrong with a capitalistic ecosystem when some people are allowed to game the system when others play by the rules and pay the full freight!

I have suggested to them they should have the first right of refusal and they should simply not refuse. If some member wants to get out, their UDI should be sold by Wyndham to others in the ecosystem! 

Wyndham should include a clause in their contract asserting its right of first refusal and to act as a broker to resell the share of anyone who wants out! 

I recently bought a piggy-back deal of a resale from a former owner of Smoky Mountains with an additional purchase of 84k points in Bonnet Creek. 

If members of this BBS keep asserting Developer prices are too high and resale is the only way to go, I believe the ecosystem will collapse! Parasites will overwhelm the host! 

I wonder if those of us who paid the full freight should mount a crusade against RESALE parasites who do not contribute to enlarging the ecosystem but simply consume the host to its inevitable demise! Maybe they serve the same useful purpose in a capitalistic market as short-sellers and option-traders! Scavengers who clean up the irrational mess of the unfit-to-survive and keep the system fit and true!

If I had perused this BBS before I ever got into Wyndham, I am quite sure I would have stayed away from it based on all the negatives! Actually, the slightest negative would have dissuaded me! I won't be in the situation of figuring out how to get the max out of my >1.4 Million points every year! Hopefully, my adult sons and their progeny will get the maximum enjoyment out of it!


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## dgalati (Nov 27, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Firstly, let me state that we enjoy our stay at Wyndham resorts. Far superior to any hotel! You would never know that in the current anti-timeshare hysteria. You would think they are flea-bitten ghettos full of pickpockets!
> 
> I have paid full freight on my points. I did score with 2 PICs, which I learnt about on this website one day too late after having purchased 175K Waikiki Beach-Walk at Kona in July 2018. Went back the next day and had to purchase 49K more to to add the 2 PICs. .. long story. I could have rescinded and acted like an UGLY BUYER.
> 
> ...


Wyndham sets the price at $0 with Ovations. Why offer first right of rufusal when many are giving deeds back for $0 cost?


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## SNA27 (Nov 27, 2019)

If I were running Wyndham Destinations, I would kill all the hard-sell and create an ethos where buyers want to get in on a good thing! I wouldn't want sub-prime buyers and create an exclusive, desirable club that people fight to get in!


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## SNA27 (Nov 27, 2019)

dgalati said:


> Wyndham sets the price at $0 with Ovations. Why offer first right of rufusal when many are giving deeds back for $0 cost?


I paid over 6k to acquire the Smoky Mountains 84K points. It's in progress. Sellers are not getting 0 as per the escrow docs. I don't know if this was through Ovations but there is way too much misinformation! Wyndham should create and facilitate/broker transactions among Wyndham owners. Restricting resale outside the Wyndham ecosystem will boost resale values!


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## CO skier (Nov 27, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Firstly, let me state that we enjoy our stay at Wyndham resorts. Far superior to any hotel! You would never know that in the current anti-timeshare hysteria. You would think they are flea-bitten ghettos full of pickpockets!


I do not know where you got this opinion, but there are about 900,000 Club Wyndham, Shell Vacations, Margaritaville, and WorldMark owners who do not share your opinion.

Any timeshare owner who has ever experienced a timeshare condo vacation knows how superior it is to a hotel vacation.  Timeshares are a much better alternative for families wanting to vacation.  Every few years, I take the family on vacation to WorldMark West Yellowstone for a vacation and location that just cannot be beat.  You said it best, "Far superior to any hotel!"

You must be new here.  Oh, yes, you just joined today.  You have a lot to learn about timesharing in general, and Wyndham in particular.


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## dgalati (Nov 27, 2019)

I tried to give deeds back earlier this year with Ovations and Wyndham would not take back because I didn't own for 1 year. I sold them through Wyndham's preferred reseller. Odd thing was Wyndham was the third party buyer.  Hard to understand their strategy  sometimes.


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## dgalati (Nov 27, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I paid over 6k to acquire the Smoky Mountains 84K points. It's in progress. Sellers are not getting 0 as per the escrow docs. I don't know if this was through Ovations but there is way too much misinformation! Wyndham should create and facilitate/broker transactions among Wyndham owners. Restricting resale outside the Wyndham ecosystem will boost resale values!


6k for 84,000 points Smokey mountains on a reaale purchse? If you need to buy more many on the tug market place are selling for less then closing costs.


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## CO skier (Nov 27, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Restricting resale outside the Wyndham ecosystem will boost resale values!


I am not a Club Wyndham Access owner so cannot confirm the rumor that CWA contracts have a right-of-first-refusal written into the contract.  There has definitely been NO reports of Wyndham ever exercising a ROFR.

There is nothing in contracts prior to CWA with a ROFR, so that is a bazillion contracts that can be sold for $1 or whatever, and nothing Wyndham can do about it.  Wyndham will never gain any kind of control over the resale market.  (Good for buyers; it will always be a buyers market in Wyndhamland.)


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## SNA27 (Nov 27, 2019)

On other threads, I read about the asymmetry between the seller and buyer. I fail to see it. The seller did not hold a gun to the buyer's head! The right of rescission is the deceptive soporific used to lull the buyer into entering into unsuitable contracts! Take that away and allow people to consider the offer before committing, you will get a lot more committed buyers who see the value of their purchase!
I believe Wyndham is selling a great product by less than dubious means! No need for that!


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 27, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Firstly, let me state that we enjoy our stay at Wyndham resorts. .....!
> 
> I have paid full freight on my points. I did score with 2 PICs, which I learnt about on this website one day too late after having purchased 175K Waikiki Beach-Walk at Kona in July 2018. Went back the next day and had to purchase 49K more to to add the 2 PICs. .. long story. I could have rescinded and acted like an UGLY BUYER......... Hopefully, my adult sons and their progeny will get the maximum enjoyment out of it!



Welcome to TUG I glad you decided to become a member .

Interesting points you make / from the vantage point of 1.4 Wyndham ownership.

There is nothing wrong with ROFR as a concept and there are certainly TS systems that regularly use it .
-not having it may have something to do with how Wyndham evolved as a company and its historical roots back to  Fairfield Resorts (started in 1966 )
Perhaps a long time owner can add information .

Please realize that TUG's business model includes ownership by TUG Brian . His Dad started this forum many years ago. 
There are moderators and certain contentious issues of the "other dimension world" are not part of posting etiquette .

Happy USA Thanksgiving from those of us who enjoy ours in October 
(non controversial Turkey comments are allowed)


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## Grammarhero (Nov 27, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Firstly, let me state that we enjoy our stay at Wyndham resorts. Far superior to any hotel! You would never know that in the current anti-timeshare hysteria. You would think they are flea-bitten ghettos full of pickpockets!
> 
> I have paid full freight on my points. I did score with 2 PICs, which I learnt about on this website one day too late after having purchased 175K Waikiki Beach-Walk at Kona in July 2018. Went back the next day and had to purchase 49K more to to add the 2 PICs. .. long story. I could have rescinded and acted like an UGLY BUYER.
> 
> ...


You sound like a Wyndham shill or tool. You also sound like someone trying to justify their bad financial decisions. Just because you paid $6k for 84k Smokey Mountain doesn’t mean everyone, who might have families and children to support, should.

I actually love Wyndham.  You know how much I paid for my 434k pts? $7 total.  Don’t call me a parasite because I chose to save tens of thousands of dollars for the same products, and I used that saved money to support my family.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 27, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> ....I believe Wyndham is selling a great product by less than dubious means! No need for that!



You should check out Vidanta - (Mayan Palace -to  Grand Luxxe and now the Estates)- if you want to see a really really great product / that is also "very well sold" -
by (sometimes) way less than dubious means .( and that is after some cleaning up of the sales program) .

Wyndham is successful in the sale of vacation intervals - and that is all that matters
to their management & ownership . If that were to change then you might see changes . DO NOT hold your breath waiting .


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## SNA27 (Nov 27, 2019)

CO skier said:


> I do not know where you got this opinion, but there are about 900,000 Club Wyndham, Shell Vacations, Margaritaville, and WorldMark owners who do not share your opinion.
> 
> Any timeshare owner who has ever experienced a timeshare condo vacation knows how superior it is to a hotel vacation.  Timeshares are a much better alternative for families wanting to vacation.  Every few years, I take the family on vacation to WorldMark West Yellowstone for a vacation and location that just cannot be beat.  You said it best, "Far superior to any hotel!"
> 
> You must be new here.  Oh, yes, you just joined today.  You have a lot to learn about timesharing in general, and Wyndham in particular.


I must apologize for my hyperbole! But a lot of negative opinions expressed here don't distinguish between the greatness of the product from the sliminess of the sellers of the product! In normal parlance, snake-oil salesmen sell snake-oil and not a worthwhile product!


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## SNA27 (Nov 27, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> You sound like a Wyndham shill or tool. You also sound like someone trying to justify their bad financial decisions. Just because you paid $6k for 84k Smokey Mountain doesn’t mean everyone, who might have families and children to support, should.
> 
> I actually love Wyndham.  You know how much I paid for my 484k pts? $7 total.  Don’t call me a parasite because I chose to save tens of thousands of dollars for the same products, and I used that saved money to support my family.





dgalati said:


> 6k for 84,000 points Smokey mountains on a reaale purchse? If you need to buy more many on tig market place are selling for less then closing costs.


The price is the price is the price! Unfortunately, Wyndham doesn't have the clout to make it happen! ((Unlike the Albanian Pimp Thug in Taken!)


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 27, 2019)

CO skier said:


> I am not a Club Wyndham Access owner so cannot confirm the rumor that CWA contracts have a right-of-first-refusal written into ...
> 
> There is nothing in contracts prior to CWA with a ROFR, so that is a bazillion contracts that can be sold for $1 or whatever, and nothing Wyndham can do about it.  Wyndham will never gain any kind of control over the resale market.  (Good for buyers; it will always be a buyers market in Wyndhamland.)



I would assume one current goal IS to gain an upper hand over the "smelly"  exit company ecosystem.


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## CO skier (Nov 27, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I paid over 6k to acquire the Smoky Mountains 84K points.


84,000 Smokey Mountains on ebay for $310.50 all-in.  fyi
https://www.ebay.com/itm/84-000-Ann...048652?hash=item54768a9d8c:g:9YkAAOSwWXddUYoI


Wyndham regularly sells 84,000 points for $16,000-$18,000.  $6,000 might seem like a good deal … or ebay might seem like a better deal.


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## Grammarhero (Nov 27, 2019)

CO skier said:


> 84,000 Smokey Mountains on ebay for $310.50 all-in.  fyi
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/84-000-Ann...048652?hash=item54768a9d8c:g:9YkAAOSwWXddUYoI
> 
> 
> Wyndham regularly sells 84,000 points for $16,000-$18,000.  $6,000 might seem like a good deal … or ebay might seem like a better deal.



OP paid $6k instead of $310, so he/she can feel better and not feel like a “parasite.”  As long as I am but breaking any laws, my obligations financially are to my family.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 27, 2019)

CO skier said:


> I do not know where you got this opinion, but there are about 900,000 Club Wyndham, Shell Vacations, Margaritaville, and WorldMark owners who do not share your opinion.
> 
> You must be new here.  Oh, yes, you just joined today.  You have a lot to learn about timesharing in general, and Wyndham in particular.



Hi Co skier , 
should I suggest our new member SNA27 read some of the  many archived posts by RonParise and others ,on how Wyndham is structured ?

Happy Thanksgiving


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## CO skier (Nov 27, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> I would assume one current goal IS to gain an upper hand over the "smelly"  exit company ecosystem.


Of course that is the goal.  Five years after the introduction of Ovation, there are just as many $1 Club Wyndham timeshares for sale on ebay as before the introduction of Ovation.  The goal will be forever elusive.

The only explanation I can offer is the "exit companies" do a better job of marketing their $2,000-3,000 services than Wyndham does marketing "get out for nothing" Ovation service.  Buyers of the exit companies' ebay auctions might get a CWA contract for next to nothing; buyers of an Ovation resale will pay $220/thousand points.

The Wyndham (or any other timeshare company) retail buyers must not know about the resale market.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 27, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> OP paid $6k instead of $310, so he/she can feel better and not feel like a “parasite.”  As long as I am but breaking any laws, my obligations financially are to my family.



Nothing wrong with either option in my opinion / not my money .


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## SNA27 (Nov 27, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> You sound like a Wyndham shill or tool. You also sound like someone trying to justify their bad financial decisions. Just because you paid $6k for 84k Smokey Mountain doesn’t mean everyone, who might have families and children to support, should.
> 
> I actually love Wyndham.  You know how much I paid for my 434k pts? $7 total.  Don’t call me a parasite because I chose to save tens of thousands of dollars for the same products, and I used that saved money to support my family.


What would you call me who paid >10,000 times your $7? Sucker? Fool? Shill, tool? Ok, you did that already! Classy!:-(
Do you think it's fair? Can such a dysfunctional and unbalanced ecosystem sustain itself?


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## CO skier (Nov 27, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Hi Co skier ,
> should I suggest our new member SNA27 read some of the  many archived posts by RonParise and others ,on how Wyndham is structured ?
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving


There are owners who want to take their families on vacation, and there are parasites using Wyndham for only personal monetary gains.  I would suggest that owners taking their families on vacation is the intent of all the Wyndham vacation clubs.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 27, 2019)

CO skier said:


> Of course that is the goal.  Five years after the introduction of Ovation, there are just as many $1 Club Wyndham timeshares for sale on ebay as before the introduction of Ovation.  The goal will be forever elusive.
> .



and probably more this month -since MF renews in January for many  and 2019 summer vacation use is in the rear view mirror.

i learned that from TUG reading.


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## CO skier (Nov 27, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> and probably more this month -since MF renews in January for many  and 2019 summer vacation use is in the rear view mirror.
> 
> i learned that from TUG reading.


Annual maintenance fee payments in January are an option, but most Club Wyndham owners pay their maintenance fees on a monthly basis, so January is no different than any other month.


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## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

CO skier said:


> 84,000 Smokey Mountains on ebay for $310.50 all-in.  fyi
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/84-000-Ann...048652?hash=item54768a9d8c:g:9YkAAOSwWXddUYoI
> 
> 
> Wyndham regularly sells 84,000 points for $16,000-$18,000.  $6,000 might seem like a good deal … or ebay might seem like a better deal.


My platinum level will be no good anymore, they said, and I only needed 143k to get to the promised land of the FOUNDERS! Resale would not count! 
Don't ask me why I need the Founder level! I will echo what Sir Edmund Hillary said when asked why he wanted to climb Mount Everest! Because, it's there!


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## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

CO skier said:


> 84,000 Smokey Mountains on ebay for $310.50 all-in.  fyi
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/84-000-Ann...048652?hash=item54768a9d8c:g:9YkAAOSwWXddUYoI
> 
> 
> Wyndham regularly sells 84,000 points for $16,000-$18,000.  $6,000 might seem like a good deal … or ebay might seem like a better deal.


But the previous owners got something, it's a win-win and a good deal! I am not looking for a steal! and it counts towards VIP status!


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## CO skier (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Can such a dysfunctional and unbalanced ecosystem sustain itself?


Yes, because the Club Wyndham system has not only sustained itself, but expanded over the last 11 years when Club Wyndham resale contracts have been regularly trading hands at $1, or $100, or ($1,000 for the low maintenance fee resorts).


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## geist1223 (Nov 28, 2019)

If some lucky person pays only $7 that another person paid $6,000 how is the Wyndham shorted? On the property sold for $7 Wyndham already collected $6,000 from the first buyer. Also this will allow the Maintenance Fees current. So win win.


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## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> What would you call me who paid >10,000 times your $7? Sucker? Fool? Shill, tool? Ok, you did that already! Classy!:-(
> Do you think it's fair? Can such a dysfunctional and unbalanced ecosystem sustain itself?



There are times in which paying $70k for 1.4 million Wyndham pts makes sense, such as for VIP Gold or Platinum, PIC, PIC and telesales at $134/1k pts, etc.  Oftentimes, these $134/1k telesales and PIC purchases are a better deal than resale purchases, especially with the 50 percent and 60 day window.

Unfortunately, your situation was not one of them. You knowingly overpaid $6k for Smokey Mountains and call any resale buyer who disagrees with you as a “parasite.”

Even before meeting me, you already deemed me the Parasite Master.  I actually got 158k Grand Desert for $2.


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## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> What would you call me who paid >10,000 times your $7? Sucker? Fool? Shill, tool? Ok, you did that already! Classy!:-(
> Do you think it's fair? Can such a dysfunctional and unbalanced ecosystem sustain itself?


I will use your ecosystem example.  Resale buyers are not parasites, but scavengers, Ravens, and vultures cleaning up decomposing remains thereby preventing the spreading of diseases that kill ecosystems.  

When retail buyers can no longer afford their timeshares, resale buyers come in to clean up the smoking fires and messes, thereby sustaining the timeshare systems.  Without resale buyers, Wyndham would crumble.


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## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

CO skier said:


> Yes, because the Club Wyndham system has not only sustained itself, but expanded over the last 11 years when Club Wyndham resale contracts have been regularly trading hands at $1, or $100, or ($1,000 for the low maintenance fee resorts).


Any ecosystem where the young/able prey upon the old/disabled instead of sustaining them equitably is bound to fail!
Why must something be sold in distress for less than its intrinsic value? Why do we praise the predators for their kill?
One of the posters gloats about providing for his family at the expense of others! I hope he realizes that his gains come at the loss of others, whose distress sales enthuses him as does a hapless fawn enthuses a rapacious wolf!


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## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Any ecosystem where the young/able prey upon the old/disabled instead of sustaining them equitably is bound to fail!
> Why must something be sold in distress for less than its intrinsic value? Why do we praise the predators for their kill?
> One of the posters gloats about providing for his family at the expense of others! I hope he realizes that his gains come at the loss of others, whose distress sales enthuses him as does a hapless fawn enthuses a rapacious wolf!



That is horsecrap.  Let’s say I have $70k.  I have two options:
1) pay $70k for Wyndham retail TS.  Let my family suffer financially, who could really use my financial assistance - all so I can feel better about myself for not being a “parasite.”
2) pay $7 for 434k Wyndham pts.  Pay for my child’s college and grad school education.  Give $200/month to my elderly, retired parents, in which Social Security benefits don’t cover their basic living expenses or medical bills.

You know what would happen if I didn’t buy the 434k pts for $7?  Wyndham wouldn’t get my $2.6k/yr in MF.  Without a resale market, TS systems crumble.


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## CO skier (Nov 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> I will use your ecosystem example.  Resale buyers are not parasites, but scavengers, Ravens, and vultures cleaning up decomposing remains thereby preventing the spreading of diseases that kill ecosystems.
> 
> When retail buyers can no longer afford their timeshares, resale buyers come in to clean up the smoking fires and messes, thereby sustaining the timeshare systems.  Without resale buyers, Wyndham would crumble.


There is biological ecosystems (timeshare do not qualify), and there is capitalism, where seller and buyer meet at a "market" price.  Timeshare definitely qualify in the capitalistic marketplace.

SNA27, get over it, timeshares are not an efficient market.  Developers sell timeshares for 10X to 90X what it is worth on the resale market.  THIS WILL NEVER CHANGE!!!


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## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

CO skier said:


> There is biological ecosystems (timeshare do not qualify), and there is capitalism, where seller and buyer meet at a "market" price.  Timeshare definitely qualify in the capitalistic marketplace.
> 
> SNA27, get over it, timeshares are not an efficient market.  Developers sell timeshares for 10X to 90X what it is worth on the resale market.  THIS WILL NEVER CHANGE!!!


SNA27 reminds me of people in denial that they made mistakes, double down on their mistakes, then try to convince everyone around them that they didn’t make mistakes in the first place.


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## CO skier (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Why must something be sold in distress for less than its intrinsic value?


What is the "intrinsic value" of a timeshare?  A timeshare is nothing more than an ongoing obligation to pay maintenance fees for usage.  How much is that worth?  $1?, depending on the timeshare system?


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## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

This was the stupidest Wyndham debate of all time.  The debate was pretty much “pay retail, so you’re not a timeshare parasite.”

As annoying and incessant @dgalati ’s “rent from a VIP within 60 days for less than the MF” mantra was, at least that mantra delved into sophisticated timeshare usage strategies and knowledge.


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## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Nothing wrong with either option in my opinion / not my money .


What's wrong is ennobling his greed by attributing it to the welfare of his family! Let the OTHER family be damned!


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## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> What's wrong is ennobling his greed by attributing it to the welfare of his family! Let the OTHER family be damned!



I never knew that partially paying for my parent’s rent and medical bills, along with my child’s college education, was being greedy.


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## chapjim (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Any ecosystem where the young/able prey upon the old/disabled instead of sustaining them equitably is bound to fail!
> Why must something be sold in distress for less than its intrinsic value? Why do we praise the predators for their kill?
> One of the posters gloats about providing for his family at the expense of others! I hope he realizes that his gains come at the loss of others, whose distress sales enthuses him as does a hapless fawn enthuses a rapacious wolf!



With all due respect, you're babbling.


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## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

chapjim said:


> With all due respect, you're babbling.


Spoken like a wise Wyndham VIP.


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## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> This was the stupidest Wyndham debate of all time.  The debate was pretty much “pay retail, so you’re not a timeshare parasite.”
> 
> As annoying and incessant @dgalati ’s “rent from a VIP within 60 days for less than the MF” mantra was, at least that mantra delved into sophisticated timeshare usage strategies and knowledge.


You are an endangered species of a predator and you do love the endangered species protection act! But your prey is demanding its repeal!


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## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

chapjim said:


> With all due respect, you're babbling.


I thought I was waxing eloquent!


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## chapjim (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I thought I was waxing eloquent!



No.  You were babbling.  You've been babbling since you started this thread.


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## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> You are an endangered species of a predator and you do love the endangered species protection act! But your prey is demanding its repeal!



You need to make up your mind.  First, you call resale buyers “parasites.”  Then you call them endangered species.  Which is it?

Resale buyers may be endangered predators and “keystone species” such as American wolves.  When wolves died, elk populations grew so much so that birds, beavers, plants, and fish died, as elk fed on same shrubbery and water sustaining those other animals.

Likewise, resale buyers are keystone species and endangered predators sustaining the TS system.


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## CO skier (Nov 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> This was the stupidest Wyndham debate of all time.  The debate was pretty much “pay retail, so you’re not a timeshare parasite.”
> 
> As annoying and incessant @dgalati ’s “rent from a VIP within 60 days for less than the MF” mantra was, at least that mantra delved into sophisticated timeshare usage strategies and knowledge.


Sorry, the  “rent from a VIP within 60 days for less than the MF” mantra is also one of the stupidest debates of all time.


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## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

CO skier said:


> Sorry, the  “rent from a VIP within 60 days for less than the MF” mantra is also one of the stupidest debates of all time.


TBH, I thought it was a sophisticated debate involving complex timeshare usage strategies and deep TS knowledge.  I actually learned a lot from that debate.

@SNA27 ’s debate was just non-sensical, rambling, and incoherent.


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## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

But the allegorical reference to the offender as a rapacious wolf preying upon a defenseless fawn is unacceptable! The wolf may think it's his fundamental right to prey on the weak! And even gloat that he is so noble because he's taking care of his family by destroying the fawn! But my narration of the event from a fawn's perspective should not be dismissed! This is an unacceptable abridgment of free speech!


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## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> TBH, I thought it was a sophisticated debate involving complex timeshare usage strategies and deep TS knowledge.  I actually learned a lot from that debate.
> 
> @SNA27 ’s debate was just non-sensical, rambling, and incoherent.


Sorry, I came here to learn the system and not how to game the system! I guess you and I have different motivations!


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## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

geist1223 said:


> If some lucky person pays only $7 that another person paid $6,000 how is the Wyndham shorted? On the property sold for $7 Wyndham already collected $6,000 from the first buyer. Also this will allow the Maintenance Fees current. So win win.


Another way of looking at it: the previous owner got $6000. So the investment in Wyndham is not worth 0 and has some intrinsic value to other buyers!


----------



## hjsweet2002 (Nov 28, 2019)

First, I resent the term of parasite.  I am very thankful that you and others have been blessed to be able to afford to buy direct .  We could not afford to buy direct and did not want to go in debt to pay for vacations.  We are thankful that we were able to buy resale.  It had provided us many opportunities to vacation that we would have not had if we didn't buy resale.  Supply and demand affects the financial investment value of Timeshares.  The lack of demand for high price timeshares has created a surplus that has become a major source of supply of resale.  I am thankful that some Wyndham owners are choosing to sell resell instead of Ovations. In my opinion Timeshares will never be a financial investment but an investment of priceless memories with family and friends.


----------



## bnoble (Nov 28, 2019)

I’m totally fine being a parasite. SNA27: welcome to TUG and my ignore list. Others: don’t feed the trolls.


----------



## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

bnoble said:


> I’m totally fine being a parasite. SNA27: welcome to TUG and my ignore list. Others: don’t feed the trolls.


Hey @bnoble.  I think both you and @chapjim are Wyndham VIPs.  Congrats on being Wyndham VIPs the right, wise way.


----------



## bogey21 (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> But, I am not into rescission! To rescind is to shirk my responsibility for my decision and admit that I was a fool who didn't know to walk away!



You and Wyndham negotiated a contract.  One of the terms agreed to is the right to rescind.  Some exercise that right. Some choose not to...

George


----------



## Eric B (Nov 28, 2019)

CO skier said:


> Of course that is the goal.  Five years after the introduction of Ovation, there are just as many $1 Club Wyndham timeshares for sale on ebay as before the introduction of Ovation.  The goal will be forever elusive.
> 
> The only explanation I can offer is the "exit companies" do a better job of marketing their $2,000-3,000 services than Wyndham does marketing "get out for nothing" Ovation service.  Buyers of the exit companies' ebay auctions might get a CWA contract for next to nothing; buyers of an Ovation resale will pay $220/thousand points.
> 
> The Wyndham (or any other timeshare company) retail buyers must not know about the resale market.



Actually, sustaining resale price doesn't really appear to be the goal.  Ovations allows Wyndham to recycle ownerships through sales at a lower cost because they avoid the need for the HOA to foreclose on a timeshare that is in default for non-payment of MFs, then transfer the ownership to Wyndham in order for them to sell it.



SNA27 said:


> Another way of looking at it: the previous owner got $6000. So the investment in Wyndham is not worth 0 and has some intrinsic value to other buyers!



I seriously doubt that the previous owner got $6000.  Wyndham acquired the contract either through foreclosure for failure to pay the loan or MFs, as a trade-in for an upgrade, or through Ovations.  Wyndham doesn't act as a broker for resales.  In the case of a trade-in for an upgrade, the previous owner may have gotten some credit towards a higher cost contract, but the fair market value of that credit is questionable.

The fundamental problem I have with the argument presented in this thread is that it ignores any sort of understanding of the market or fair market values.  The retail market prices are supported by asymmetric knowledge of the resale market prices in a form of market segmentation.  As @Grammarhero notes, there may be some additional value to a retail purchase if it allows one to obtain the VIP benefits, which is why I've purchased Wyndham retail and added PICs.  As far as all that goes, though, I'm actually the parasite in this situation because my VIP discounts and room upgrades are paid for out of the program fees that everyone, including the resale purchasers.  I am able to be a parasite, though I view it as more of a symbiotic relationship because of the support of the developer in my purchases, which enables development of more resorts, because I've managed to overcome the knowledge asymmetry through the use of my time spent reading TUG postings by others with more experience.  @SNA27 and others can complain about the motives of the market participants, but that's what capitalism and the free market is about.  Tuggers are just the folks that read the classified ads and reviews before they go shopping....


----------



## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Sorry, I came here to learn the system and not how to game the system! I guess you and I have different motivations!


It seemed like you came here to complain and disparage resale buyers as parasites.

Want to know a sophisticated, savvy Wyndham resale strategy from @dgalati ? Want to know how to get 100k Wyndham pts usage for free?

I haven’t done this yet.  Get a 100k Grand Desert or National Harbor Ts for $1.  Once you get your Wyndham points, deposit into RCI for $19.  Sell to Timeshare Broker Associates for $110, the cost of two month MF and RCI exchange fee.

Viola!  100k Wyndham pts usage for free!  I can only imagine your self-righteous indignation upon learning about this.


----------



## geist1223 (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Any ecosystem where the young/able prey upon the old/disabled instead of sustaining them equitably is bound to fail!



It seems like the Natural World doing exactly this has survived quite well, except when man interfers.


----------



## paxsarah (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> But a lot of negative opinions expressed here don't distinguish between the greatness of the product from the sliminess of the sellers of the product!



I see this distinction made here constantly. Now, if you were talking about some of the Wyndham Facebook groups you’d have a point. But on TUG, people unfailingly acknowledge the contrast between the sales tactics and the underlying product.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 28, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Welcome to TUG I glad you decided to become a member .
> Interesting points you make / from the vantage point of 1.4 Wyndham ownership.
> There is nothing wrong with ROFR as a concept and there are certainly TS systems that regularly use it .
> -not having it may have something to do with how Wyndham evolved as a company and its historical roots back to  Fairfield Resorts (started in 1966 )
> ...



Reposting my post from last night .

Please realize that TUG business model includes ownership by TUG Brian . His Dad started this forum many years ago.

There are moderators and certain contentious issues of the “other dimension world “ are not a part of posting etiquette on TUG .

added - good TIMESHARE debate with respect for others opinions certainly is allowed .

Happy USA Thanksgiving - from those of us who enjoy ours in October
(non controversial Turkey comments are allowed)


----------



## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> I see this distinction made here constantly. Now, if you were talking about some of the Wyndham Facebook groups you’d have a point. But on TUG, people unfailingly acknowledge the contrast between the sales tactics and the underlying product.


@paxsarah thanks for all your help in teaching me about Wyndham.  I got 434k pts for $7. I actually got Grand Desert 158k for $2.


----------



## Eric B (Nov 28, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Happy USA Thanksgiving - from those of us who enjoy ours in October
> (non controversial Turkey comments are allowed)



That should be turkey , not Turkey , otherwise it’s bound to be controversial, @T-Dot-Traveller ....

Happy month after Thanksgiving, by the way!


----------



## Eric B (Nov 28, 2019)

When do they sellabrate Black Friday in Canada, by the way?


----------



## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Reposting my post from last night .
> 
> Please realize that TUG business model includes ownership by TUG Brian . His Dad stated this forum many years ago.
> 
> ...



The OP doesn’t respect Wyndham resale buyers calling them parasites.  I have great respect for Wyndham VIPs who bought resales, PICs, and/or retail telesales, as it’s cheaper in the long run.  We all benefited when these Wyndham VIPs imparted their knowledge.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 28, 2019)

Eric B said:


> When do they sellabrate Black Friday in Canada, by the way?



tomorrow - but of course the “sales “are all week at retailers such as : 
Canadian Tire / Toys R Us Canada . (Target & Sears both left)

Black Friday sales in Canada - started about 6+ years ago /when the loonie (Cdn dollar)
was higher and cross border shopping was bigger . It was a marketing tactic to keep retail
spending local .

Of course - we still have BOXING DAY ( December 26 ) - which is a biggie sellabration / markdown & clearance - all in one .


----------



## dgalati (Nov 28, 2019)

Happy Thanksgiving to the Turkey Users Group!


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 28, 2019)

Eric B said:


> ... @T-Dot/USER] ....
> 
> Happy month after Thanksgiving, by the way!




For the football fans in Canada - it is all day NFL - on a work Thursday .

the CFL championship was last Sunday - with the Winnipeg Blue Bombers 
beating the Hamilton Ticats to win the Grey Cup .


----------



## Eric B (Nov 28, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> For the football fans in Canada - it is all day NFL - on a work Thursday .
> 
> the CFL championship was last Sunday - with the Winnipeg Blue Bombers
> beating the Hamilton Ticats to win the Grey Cup .



Looks like you spelled “sick day off work” wrong, Tom....


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> The OP doesn’t respect Wyndham resale buyers calling them parasites.  I have great respect for Wyndham VIPs who bought resales, PICs, and/or retail telesales, as it’s cheaper in the long run.  We all benefited when these Wyndham VIPs imparted their knowledge.



The OP - SNA27 is a new member and is still learning the ropes .
not the first time someone new to TUG -  at first thought this was a trash talk “twitter “ forum
Some stay and learn and adopt the TUG concept - some leave after a few posts .

I hope SNA27 is able to stay and adds and gets value on TUG
I think the Wyndham forum is a good example of information sharing
 (I have learned a lot as a non- owner of Wyndham )

******

I would like to see more of this positive information sharing with regard to Westgate in particular .
I think “we “ sometimes chase away new Westgate owners by the focus on the issues of
benefit removal by the developer upon resale .  Westgate has a large ownership base .
but only limited information can be gleaned from threads on TUG .


----------



## bobinmich (Nov 28, 2019)

<sniff> Mom in heaven....why did you have me grow up to be a parasite....?  I thought all the good I do for society, and the less fortunate <sniff> would help me be a good person....but now....I find out I'm just a parasite... <sniff><sniff>….


----------



## Sandy VDH (Nov 28, 2019)

@SNA27 and other who come to TUG right after drinking the Kool-Aid often feel the need to justify what they have done, and disparage those who have found a more cost effective way to achieve a similar result. 

I am a VIP Platinum owner who has only every purchased 160K directly from Wyndham to achieve that.  In the past there were creative and allowable ways to achieve Status, but most avenues have been removed by Wyndham, except for the buy it directly from Wyndham method.  Utilizing PIC is the most cost effective way to achieve that, but MOST of these boards would not agree on the cash outlay to achieve it.  But if you have already spent prior to your arrival at TUG, then the opportunity cost to achieve it might be acceptable. 

I am not planning on adding to my investment to reach the 1.4 Million level.  I can't justify what I would get above what I already have for the nearly 400K additional points I would have to buy from Wyndham.  I didn't like buying 160K from Wyndham, I am sure I would dislike buying 2.5 times that to achieve whatever the heck they are now calling the 1.4 million level.  

So welcome @SNA27, but note that calling us parasites is not a friendly hello.


----------



## rapmarks (Nov 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> I’m wondering if the OP had too much to drink or smoke, is off his medication, is a Wyndham shill, or just a tool.


Anyone who blames liberals for the right of recission is not going to listen to sensible arguments


----------



## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

rapmarks said:


> Anyone who blames liberals for the right of recission is not going to listen to sensible arguments


Lol.  I started to chuckle.  OP loves the environment, dislikes capitalism, blames liberals for right of rescission, but somehow has $70k to blow.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 28, 2019)

Bears vs Lions kicks off in a few minutes-

Let the eating begin


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Firstly, let me state that we enjoy our stay at Wyndham resorts. Far superior to any hotel! You would never know that in the current anti-timeshare hysteria. You would think they are flea-bitten ghettos full of pickpockets!
> 
> I have paid full freight on my points. I did score with 2 PICs, which I learnt about on this website one day too late after having purchased 175K Waikiki Beach-Walk at Kona in July 2018. Went back the next day and had to purchase 49K more to to add the 2 PICs. .. long story. I could have rescinded and acted like an UGLY BUYER.
> 
> ...




As a newbie here, I must apologize for the poor choice of metaphor. Like I said above, short-sellers and options traders play an important part in the capital markets. So do scavengers in nature cleaning up the mess created by others! 
But my central point is without the Developer sales, Wyndham will not be able to enlarge its ecosystem! If everybody avoided buying from the developer and only bought resale at distressed prices, the system will not be sustainable. 
Had I not liked my stays at Wyndham​ with 50% discount and VIP upgrades, I would not have invested so much in Wyndham! I wish they had a different selling strategy that does not rely on lies, deception, and obfuscation!
Not all are bad though! Some are straight shooters! Anyway, I don't have to attend any more presentations. If they change the VIP levels again, I am going to pass!


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

Sandy VDH said:


> @SNA27 and other who come to TUG right after drinking the Kool-Aid often feel the need to justify what they have done, and disparage those who have found a more cost effective way to achieve a similar result.
> 
> I am a VIP Platinum owner who has only every purchased 160K directly from Wyndham to achieve that.  In the past there were creative and allowable ways to achieve Status, but most avenues have been removed by Wyndham, except for the buy it directly from Wyndham method.  Utilizing PIC is the most cost effective way to achieve that, but MOST of these boards would not agree on the cash outlay to achieve it.  But if you have already spent prior to your arrival at TUG, then the opportunity cost to achieve it might be acceptable.
> 
> ...



Sorry, that was not an apt metaphor. Poor choice especially when I do not know the audience and the audience does not know me! Believe me, I was being way too clinical and did not intend to give offense! Sorry if it came out that way.


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> The OP - SNA27 is a new member and is still learning the ropes .
> not the first time someone new to TUG -  at first thought this was a trash talk “twitter “ forum
> Some stay and learn and adopt the TUG concept - some leave after a few posts .
> 
> ...



Thank you for your measured response. I had no intention to talk trash. It was a genuine concern I have expressed to Wyndham at Owner meetings that they are not doing enough to protect my investment. I guess I must read about their evolutionary history to understand why. I credited this Website in my original post for clueing me in on PIC Plus contracts in July 2018. I have been an irregular visitor since but yesterday I registered to post my 'lament' Looks like I made a bad first impression with my poor choice of metaphor!:-(

I do want to learn more about how the Wyndham system works and if it's being gamed by some Expert operators who have so many listings in Airbnb. How Extra Holidays has availability when the same dates are not available to me? I do have many questions. I will search here for answers before I post those questions.


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

Eric B said:


> Actually, sustaining resale price doesn't really appear to be the goal.  Ovations allows Wyndham to recycle ownerships through sales at a lower cost because they avoid the need for the HOA to foreclose on a timeshare that is in default for non-payment of MFs, then transfer the ownership to Wyndham in order for them to sell it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The HUD-1 statement I received the Escrow company lists both Buyers and Sellers and under Summary of Buyer's Transaction, Contract Sales Price as $6300 and Settlement Charges to Buyer $242.52. 
Summary of Seller's Transaction doesn't list anything. Is this usual? The only form that both buyer and seller sign is this:

​


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> You and Wyndham negotiated a contract.  One of the terms agreed to is the right to rescind.  Some exercise that right. Some choose not to...
> 
> George



Right of Rescission is not negotiable. It's state-mandated, period varying by state. And it applies only to Real Estate refinance mortgage. And it certainly doesn't apply to automobile mortgages even in California! Or to the initial mortgage in the purchase of a home! 

I am actually not against such a requirement but dislike its nefarious use as a selling tool! 

Btw, if you pay cash, that is, don't depend on Wyndham to Finance the purchase, do you still have the right to rescind the Wyndham purchase contract within the rescission period? What does one rescind? After all, there is no mortgage to rescind!


----------



## chapjim (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Right of Rescission is not negotiable. It's state-mandated, period varying by state. And it applies only to Real Estate refinance mortgage. And it certainly doesn't apply to automobile mortgages even in California! Or to the initial mortgage in the purchase of a home!
> 
> I am actually not against such a requirement but dislike its nefarious use as a selling tool!
> 
> Btw, if you pay cash, that is, don't depend on Wyndham to Finance the purchase, do you still have the right to rescind the Wyndham purchase contract within the rescission period? What does one rescind? After all, there is no mortgage to rescind!



This is so screwed up I don't know where to start.  So, I won't.


----------



## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Right of Rescission is not negotiable. It's state-mandated, period varying by state. And it applies only to Real Estate refinance mortgage. And it certainly doesn't apply to automobile mortgages even in California! Or to the initial mortgage in the purchase of a home!
> 
> I am actually not against such a requirement but dislike its nefarious use as a selling tool!
> 
> Btw, if you pay cash, that is, don't depend on Wyndham to Finance the purchase, do you still have the right to rescind the Wyndham purchase contract within the rescission period? What does one rescind? After all, there is no mortgage to rescind!


You still have right to rescind, even paying the purchase price in full.  Rescission does not depend on mortgage.


----------



## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> The HUD-1 statement I received the Escrow company lists both Buyers and Sellers and under Summary of Buyer's Transaction, Contract Sales Price as $6300 and Settlement Charges to Buyer
> $242.52.
> Summary of Seller's Transaction doesn't list anything. Is this usual? The only form that both buyer and seller sign is this:View attachment 15183​


If you can rescind, you should.   If not, good luck.


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> It seemed like you came here to complain and disparage resale buyers as parasites.
> 
> Want to know a sophisticated, savvy Wyndham resale strategy from @dgalati ? Want to know how to get 100k Wyndham pts usage for free?
> 
> ...



It looks like you're stripping current year points and dumping the contract to Timeshare Broker. You would be better off taking a vacation using those points instead of storing it in RCI. Wyndham owns RCI and has the ability to claw back those points if they suspect a bad faith transaction that probably violates the ToS. I have not read the fine print but I bet they have some clause that covers such abuse! Btw, who pays the MF after two months? Why would Timeshare Broker agree to pay that? Are you basically shifting your default on MF to Timeshare Broker? Very fishy! Say 'hi' to Viola!


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> If you can rescind, you should.   If not, good luck.


This is the Piggyback(84k) at Smoky Mountain. The 84k at Bonnet Creek that I had to buy in addition was completed in July 2019! The piggyback is winding to its completion! Both points are available in 2020.
But what bugs me is that I have started paying MF on Bonnet Creek from July itself! I never got satisfactory answers about that!


----------



## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> It looks like you're stripping current year points and dumping the contract to Timeshare Broker. You would be better off taking a vacation using those points instead of storing it in RCI. Wyndham owns RCI and has the ability to claw back those points if they suspect a bad faith transaction that probably violates the ToS. I have not read the fine print but I bet they have some clause that covers such abuse! Btw, who pays the MF after two months? Why would Timeshare Broker agree to pay that? Are you basically shifting your default on MF to Timeshare Broker? Very fishy! Say 'hi' to Viola!



Wyndham doesn’t have any fine print covering this situation.  Wyndham typically buys back the TS with the timeshare broker.  It’s hard for Wyndham to claw the RCI pts back, since they are two separate divisions.  Wyndham can cancel such reserved vacation using Wyndham pts.


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> There are times in which paying $70k for 1.4 million Wyndham pts makes sense, such as for VIP Gold or Platinum, PIC, PIC and telesales at $134/1k pts, etc.  Oftentimes, these $134/1k telesales and PIC purchases are a better deal than resale purchases, especially with the 50 percent and 60 day window.
> 
> Unfortunately, your situation was not one of them. You knowingly overpaid $6k for Smokey Mountains and call any resale buyer who disagrees with you as a “parasite.”
> 
> Even before meeting me, you already deemed me the Parasite Master.  I actually got 158k Grand Desert for $2.



I apologize to you for my poor choice of metaphor, especially since you seem to have taken offense very personally! ​I never intended to give any offense! Sorry!:-(


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> You still have right to rescind, even paying the purchase price in full.  Rescission does not depend on mortgage.



You're right! I did some research. Refinance Mortgage rescission derives from Truth in Lending Act. But, apparently, most states have specific laws to allow for rescinding a TS contract! Some go by Business days and others by calendar days.


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Wyndham doesn’t have any fine print covering this situation.  Wyndham typically buys back the TS with the timeshare broker.  It’s hard for Wyndham to claw the RCI pts back, since they are two separate divisions.  Wyndham can cancel such reserved vacation using Wyndham pts.



So, who pays the MF during the transition?


----------



## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> So, who pays the MF during the transition?


The seller.  That’s why he asked the timeshare broker to pay two months of MF plus RCI fee.


----------



## chapjim (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> You're right! I did some research.



The most intelligent thing you've posted on this forum.


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Lol.  I started to chuckle.  OP loves the environment, dislikes capitalism, blames liberals for right of rescission, but somehow has $70k to blow.



You keep mentioning this $70k figure. I have looked at RonParise's posts mentioning $150k.
I am in the process of creating a spreadsheet trying to document all my TS (mis)deeds for my wife and sons!
To date, my investment in Wyndham is over $183k for 917,000 developer points in various CWS deeds and one Flagstaff FW (converted to 105k points) + 508,000 points in 2 PIC Plus contracts for a total of 1,425,000 points. I understand your take on resale points, but I am just trying to understand the reason for this huge divergence. Wyndham always said the current price is $253 per 1000 and I was getting a discount each time. Especially with Piggyback deals. What exactly is the current price for 1000 points? Does anyone know? Is there an expert on this BBS who can audit my portfolio and advise? Thanks in advance!


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

chapjim said:


> The most intelligent thing you've posted on this forum.



I have read some of your other posts to know you have a law degree! You know, jurors don't like snark from lawyers!
Just kidding! I guess I deserved your snark! But, please do cut some slack for a newbie!


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

I stand by my original thesis. If Wyndham creates an internal marketplace through Ovation or whatever other schemes to enable a graceful and reasonable exit for Owners who want to exit, that will boost the resale price. Ebay and exit companies will be frozen out! There is no reason why Wyndham cannot take back the TS for 50 cents or X cents on the dollar and resell them to new buyers! If they believe in their product, I don't see why it's unreasonable! Their business model of being hustlers and snake-oil salesmen is beyond my comprehension! Why is it so difficult to sell a desirable product to desirable customers?


----------



## chapjim (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I have read some of your other posts to know you have a law degree! You know, jurors don't like snark from lawyers!
> Just kidding! I guess I deserved your snark! But, please do cut some slack for a newbie!



Most newbies come here with some humility, hoping or expecting to learn something or to get some help with a problem.  They don't act like know-it-alls and don't insult members with thousands of posts and millions of points.  Some also display logical reasoning and analytical skills, neither of which has been apparent in your posts.

Think about it.


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

Why doesn't Wyndham engage the auctions on eBay and mop up all the distress sales for peanuts? I posed the question at my last Owner meeting and never got a satisfactory answer. Way above their pay-grade, I guess!


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

chapjim said:


> Most newbies come here with some humility, hoping or expecting to learn something or to get some help with a problem.  They don't act like know-it-alls and don't insult members with thousands of posts and millions of points.  Some also display logical reasoning and analytical skills, neither of which has been apparent in your posts.
> 
> Think about it.



Ok, I have thought about it! You're judgmental and presume too much! You don't know a damn thing about me! I never intended any offense​ and I have already apologized for my poor choice of metaphor. 
I may be a newbie here and you may be God of TS Wisdom! But I would strongly suggest you restrict your comments to what's being said and not launch into ad hominem attacks on who's saying it, newbie or otherwise! Such conduct doesn't behoove an educated person! Snooty as well as snarky! I guess they go together like horse and carriage!


----------



## tschwa2 (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Why doesn't Wyndham engage the auctions on eBay and mop up all the distress sales for peanuts? I posed the question at my last Owner meeting and never got a satisfactory answer. Way above their pay-grade, I guess!


Most developers don't because they don't want to deal with messy titles.  Everything they take back through ovations they can control the timetable and perform a quick title check before accepting.  Most eBay sellers are do you want it not we make no represention as to the title.


----------



## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

tschwa2 said:


> Most developers don't because they don't want to deal with messy titles.  Everything they take back through ovations they can control the timetable and perform a quick title check before accepting.  Most eBay sellers are do you want it not we make no represention as to the title.



I am suggesting an internal market place of Wyndham owners and prospective buyers. All titles will be 'verifiable' and indeed verified before being posted on the market place. I think it's workable and all it needs is some competent IT work. No need to pay exorbitant fees to dubious exit-companies. Graceful and painless exit for those who no longer can enjoy the benefits of ownership!


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Why doesn't Wyndham engage the auctions on eBay and mop up all the distress sales for peanuts? I posed the question at my last Owner meeting and never got a satisfactory answer. Way above their pay-grade, I guess!



It has been suggested that Wyndham has bought back in "bulk" through "accumulators" (my term) that were sourcing from exit companies and others .
This probably is more cost effective than paying an employee to make multiple bids on a 163K point deed that gets snipped by a savvy bidder .

Direct bidding could, in theory, also cause the " MacDonalds's Bacon Burger Effect " .
MacDonald's occasionally offers a Bacon topped Burger , the reason it is not on the menu permanently - they would be such a large player in the bacon market
that the pork belly futures go up and therefore MacDonald's  future costing is thrown out of wack.

For Wyndham it is likely easier to pay a consistent  $0.00xx per point when  a "supplier" brings them xx million points.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> ....If they believe in their product, ..... Their business model of being hustlers and snake-oil salesmen is beyond my comprehension! Why is it so difficult to sell a desirable product to desirable customers?



There is a a concept that timeshares are " Sold " not bought - and that the "historic / iconic" timeshare sales model produces more sold contracts and revenue.

If you wish to see that model at it's best - deposit some points into RCI and then book RB71 Vidanta Grand Luxxe Nuevo Vallarta .
Go to a presentation (that is booked by the person who assigns your suite) You will have a great vacation in a really nice resort AND
see one of the best snake oil productions in North America , and they SELL them.


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## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller,

Let me cut to the chase on my original thesis. 

1. Does it enhance Wyndham product to shore up resale prices?
2. Will such efforts counter the notoriety associated with TS?
3. Selling desirable product to desirable buyers through a transparent sales strategy is better than the dodgy sales tricks. 
4. They can become order-takers instead of slimy salesmen if they get their act together and present the product for what it is.
5. Or, I am naive and TS ecosystem is corrupt by design!

I plan to write the CEO and express my concerns.


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## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> There is a a concept that timeshares are " Sold " not bought - and that the "historic / iconic" timeshare sales model produces more sold contracts and revenue.
> 
> If you wish to see that model at it's best - deposit some points into RCI and then book RB71 Vidanta Grand Luxxe Nuevo Vallarta .
> Go to a presentation (that is booked by the person who assigns your suite) You will have a great vacation in a really nice resort AND
> see one of the best snake oil productions in North America , and they SELL them.



I have all of my 2017 points (210,000) that I deposited into RCI expiring August 2020. Nuevo Vallarta it is! Is all an ALL_INCLUSIVE resort?


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## Grammarhero (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> You keep mentioning this $70k figure. I have looked at RonParise's posts mentioning $150k.
> I am in the process of creating a spreadsheet trying to document all my TS (mis)deeds for my wife and sons!
> To date, my investment in Wyndham is over $183k for 917,000 developer points in various CWS deeds and one Flagstaff FW (converted to 105k points) + 508,000 points in 2 PIC Plus contracts for a total of 1,425,000 points. I understand your take on resale points, but I am just trying to understand the reason for this huge divergence. Wyndham always said the current price is $253 per 1000 and I was getting a discount each time. Especially with Piggyback deals. What exactly is the current price for 1000 points? Does anyone know? Is there an expert on this BBS who can audit my portfolio and advise? Thanks in advance!



@Sandy VDH is a VIP Platinum. @chapjim is also VIP founders with 4.77 million pts! I am also a lawyer, and lawyers can be impatient and harsh with others.

You can purchase telesales pts at $134/1k pts.  Today, to reach VIP platinum, you can purchase 492k pts with 2 pic at $66k, rounded to $70k.

@Sandy VDH ’s purchase of 160k pts to get VIP platinum back then could have been as low $21,500 with telesales. @chapjim achieved his VIP founders status at likely slightly higher than that price.

Using this $134/1k telesales price for your 917k developer pts, you likely overpaid by at least $60k.  But it’s not the end of the world. Just learn from your mistakes and move on.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> T-Dot-Traveller,
> 
> Let me cut to the chase on my original thesis.
> 
> ...


RE - #1 - It works for Disney - but that may be a unique unicorn .( "enhancement" may or may not be useful to Wyndham's bottom line)
RE - # 2 Timeshares are like used cars - lots of people buy them - the salesperson always ranks just above xx in most untrustworthy profession .
RE - #3 - that sounds more like Marriott VC based on my reading TUG ( but even Marrott owners likely say there is some dodgy spin used) 
RE- # 4 - no one wants to say they want order takers / and IMO the demise of Saturn as a brand moved CEO's away from  that concept.
RE - #5 - not corrupt by design - perhaps by history .

My suggestion -  view the Wyndham thread on the recent AGM in San Antonio / read more on TUG / write to Michael Brown

AND go on vacation and just enjoy .


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## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> @Sandy VDH is a VIP Platinum. @chapjim is also VIP founders with 4.77 million pts! I am also a lawyer, and lawyers can be impatient and harsh with others.
> 
> You can purchase telesales pts at $134/1k pts.  Today, to reach VIP platinum, you can purchase 492k pts with 2 pic at $66k, rounded to $70k.
> 
> ...


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## SNA27 (Nov 28, 2019)

I regret nothing. I made the best decision as I saw it when it was presented to me! Shame on those who would cheat a willing buyer like me!! 
In a bazaar, I am sure there's always a person who gets a better bargain than others! It doesn't bother me! That's the nature of the bazaar! 
I bought with the consent of my sons and their promise to pay the MF after we're gone and to continue to enjoy the benefits I have bestowed upon them! I just have to make sure my VIP benefits accrue to them as well!


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 28, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I have all of my 2017 points (210,000) that I deposited into RCI expiring August 2020. Nuevo Vallarta it is! Is all an ALL_INCLUSIVE resort?



Not all inclusive -
 BUT 21 evening restaurants and about 40 places to eat including  some by the many pools / 3 golf courses .
There is a resort fee per suite size

I have a weeks RCI account so I will list by TPU cost
RCI RB71 - Grande Luxxe Nuevo Vallarta
for April & May 2020 ( June - Sept is hot- at least that is what I hear as a Canadian  / but if you live in Texas etc - likely fine )

1 bedroom - 8- 9 *- TPU's + $ 378 resort fee + RCI exchange fee = $900 net approx.**
2 bedroom -10-11 *TPU's + $630 resort fee + RCI exchange fee =$ 1250 net approx.**

full mid day - Daily Housekeeping and towel replacement and special resort made  individually wrapped chocolates left on your bedside
by the evening "turn down" housekeeper . etc

Your room key wrist band works for all meal & other charges on the resort - you pay those charges at check out.

These are developer deposited weeks and IMO the resort fee goes to "hotel"side .
The "deal" pricing is to get you - the exchanger to go to a presentation and buy . You are the red meat that feeds the Vida Sales Machine
The funds derived from sales are (IMO) used to keep building and improving their resorts . There are over 5000 employees that work on the Nuevo Vallarta
property in 3 shifts a day ( reservations and admin  are included in the 5000) The have over 400 gardeners and over 600 electric  vehicles including the  guest
transportation shuttles that can transport you around the resort . (walking is allowed)

We were there last week in the Mayan Palace brand building .


*- the TPU’s or points needed are low / the resort quality is extremely high .
these are developer weeks . IMO - Vidanta gets very little “cash back”
per unit / exchange from RCI and II . Probably in the neighbourhood
of what the exchange fee costs you . Therefore the resort fee .
There is a lower resort fee through SFX ($75) - IMO this is because of a different
split of the exchange revenue between Vidanta & SFX. Vidanta and SFX have a long term relationship .

** I based my estimate on a per TPU cost of $30 - which is mid-high . Your actual cost could be less.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 29, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I regret nothing. .....
> I bought with the consent of my sons and their promise to pay the MF after we're gone and to continue to enjoy the benefits I have bestowed upon them! I just have to make sure my VIP benefits accrue to them as well!



I will add - for all readers.

one of the best statements I ever read on TUG --
" I wish I had bought developer - sooner / many years ago when offered . Instead I passed and missed years of irreplaceable  family vacation time because
I choose to work "harder and longer" . The money I can always replace - those missed moments cannot be regained ."

I do not recall what member posted this (and what I typed  is a paraphrase .)

Everyone - please enjoy the rest of Thanksgiving Weekend  family time with your loved ones .

{PS : reading TUG when they are driving you crazy is an allowable distraction }


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## SNA27 (Nov 29, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> I will add - for all readers.
> 
> one of the best statements I ever read on TUG --
> " I wish I had bought developer  sooner / many years ago when offered . Instead I passed and missed years of irreplaceable  family vacation time because
> ...



Canadians speak the truth, eh?
We have severe constraints on our ability to travel at will but still, I wish I had bought into Wyndham way before I stumbled into them in Maui in 2016! 
We may not be able to enjoy the benefits but it's our bequest to our sons and their progeny!


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## SNA27 (Nov 29, 2019)

I have planted a tree that may not bear fruit in my time but I hope it will bear fruit for generations to come!


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 29, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Canadians speak the truth, eh?
> We have severe constraints on our ability to travel at will but still, I wish I had bought into Wyndham way before I stumbled into them in Maui in 2016!
> We may not be able to enjoy the benefits but it's our bequest to our sons and their progeny!


The value is in vacation & family usage . 

Keep reading TUG and help you and your family learn how to improve usage of what you own . 
There are many knowledgeable members who are happy to share info or assist  someone who has a question . 

Because of the size of Wyndham resorts  the Wydham forum is quite active .


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## SNA27 (Nov 29, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller,
I appreciate your posts on this thread.
I have been binge-reading TUG BBS. I will post my impressions on a new thread! Unless some busybody gets a Cease & Desist order against me! 
Richelle is number 1 in my estimation followed closely by RonParise for his dispassionate calculation that makes me doubt my own judgment! I wish I had read his posts before I did what I ought not to have done per RonParise! (I wonder if he is related to a Steve Parise from Arcadia, CA). But I felt vindication in Richelle's post in defense of VIPs! I like her convincing argument that VIPs like me are not clueless fools!


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## Railman83 (Nov 29, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I stand by my original thesis. If Wyndham creates an internal marketplace through Ovation or whatever other schemes to enable a graceful and reasonable exit for Owners who want to exit, that will boost the resale price. Ebay and exit companies will be frozen out! There is no reason why Wyndham cannot take back the TS for 50 cents or X cents on the dollar and resell them to new buyers! If they believe in their product, I don't see why it's unreasonable! Their business model of being hustlers and snake-oil salesmen is beyond my comprehension! Why is it so difficult to sell a desirable product to desirable customers?


Your posts seem to confuse your view of morality with economics.

The idea that Wyndham should intentionally overpay 50% what they can get for 0$ is absurd.   When you go in to buy a car do you pay 50% over asking?  

Wyndham has been selling for 50+ years and many owners are too old to travel and just want to give away.   If you have more for sale than buyers, the price drops until supply meets demand.

I paid $10,000 for 2 million points, you paid $180k+ for half that.   You seem to think that makes you a better person but I think the consensus here is that you just didn’t spend your money very well, and you are rationalizing poor purchase decisions.


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## Grammarhero (Nov 29, 2019)

Railman83 said:


> Your posts seem to confuse your view of morality with economics.
> 
> The idea that Wyndham should intentionally overpay 50% what they can get for 0$ is absurd.   When you go in to buy a car do you pay 50% over asking?
> 
> ...


I’ve been critical of the OP.  To be fair to OP, he wanted VIP Founders at $1.4 million developer pts.  With telesales at $134/1k and two PIC, nowadays, the minimum he needs to spend is $123k. So, to be optimistic, he overpaid by $60k.


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## bogey21 (Nov 29, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> To date, my investment in Wyndham is over $183k for 917,000 developer points.



We obviously live on different planets.  I bought  Fixed Weeks/Fixed Units at 6 different Resorts in 6 different cities for a total of between $6 an $8 thousand dollars; used them for 6 or 7 years and essentially gave them away when I stopped traveling.  My recollection is that my average MFs were less than $700.  Were they Wyndham quality?  Absolutely not.  Did they provide reasonable accommodations at places I liked to visit?  Absolutely.  To each his own...

George


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## Eric B (Nov 29, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Not all inclusive -
> BUT 21 evening restaurants and about 40 places to eat including  some by the many pools / 3 golf courses .
> There is a resort fee per suite size
> 
> ...



A better approach for @SNA27 would be to get a Diamond level membership in SFX and deposit a Wyndham 1 BR week there to trade for GL NV or RM.  A judicious choice of an inexpensive Florida resort that has decent availability would cost only ~84K Wyndham points and can be replaced with a 50% off studio upgraded at the 60 day point to a 1 BR, resulting in a cost in Wyndham points lower than the Wyndham-RCI route.  The exchange fee with SFX will be higher ($449 v $239), but the resort fee is much lower ($75 v $630 for a 2 BR).  Overall a much more efficient way to go there with a Wyndham ownership. Typically SFX only gets the GL suites, which are what RB71 is, but gets RM as well.  For the nicer GL units OP would need to use II or Registry Collection, though it doesn’t sound like Registry is an option since he’s not Presidential Reserve.  Not sure how easy it is setting up to use II from Wyndham as I haven’t tried that myself, but it’s an option in the member’s directory.

@SNA27, my advice is to read all you can here and educate your kids on the efficient use of what you own.  No point in arguing about whether your past actions or anyone else’s were wise or parasitic; you are paying for certain privileges with Wyndham and might as well learn how to use them.  That is fundamentally what TUG (timeshare users group) is for, after all, so you’re in the right place for that.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 29, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> I’ve been critical of the OP.  To be fair to OP, he wanted VIP Founders at $1.4 million developer pts.  With telesales at $134/1k and two PIC, nowadays, the minimum he needs to spend is $123k. So, to be optimistic, he overpaid by $60k.



I would assume your math / $ 60K is pretty accurate . This is sunk money
and that seems to be ok with the OP / SNA27 . He like many others (me included) come to  realize that whatever we spent with a developer becomes “ irrelevant” once you focus on vacation usage value .

( 60K is the price of a nice new car or a country club member initiation fee)

In 2006 we gave 16K to Grupo Mayan - now Vidanta . Had I not made that choice
I would today own a 13 year old Hyundai Elantra / and have a wife who would be less happy with me - for not going on wonderful & relaxing vacations . Instead - I have a happy wife and a 7 year old Hyundai Elantra Touring ( old car finally died in 2012 ) That may be a rationalization - but sunk money is sunk money and the future vacation value remains .

There are also TUG members who enjoy the hunt . I admire that too.
Getting xx Wyndham points for $7 - all in - pretty impressive .
Also impressive is being Wyndham VIP and getting a 2 bedroom for the price of a studio
TUG members help others do both or either regularly .

Getting his adult children & family to actively use 1.4 K points per year for many many years to come sound like a good plan to me  .

Joining TUG  and learning more can only enhance this family usage .


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## Eric B (Nov 29, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> ...
> 
> Getting his adult children & family to actively use 1.4 K points per year for many many years to come sound slime a good plan too me .
> 
> Joining TUG  and learning more can only enhance this family usage .



What a coincidence!  “Sound Slime” was the name of my high school rock band!


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## JeffC (Nov 29, 2019)

Let me cut to the chase on my original thesis.

1. Does it enhance Wyndham product to shore up resale prices?
2. Will such efforts counter the notoriety associated with TS?
3. Selling desirable product to desirable buyers through a transparent sales strategy is better than the dodgy sales tricks.
4. They can become order-takers instead of slimy salesmen if they get their act together and present the product for what it is.
5. Or, I am naive and TS ecosystem is corrupt by design!

I plan to write the CEO and express my concerns.[/QUOTE]

1. No. Wyndham profits come from selling points at the highest possible price. A transparent and efficient resale market would cut into these profits. Wyndham doesn't lose money on MF defaults, the cost is passed on to current paying owners.
2. No. 
3. No. TS is an impulse buy for the majority of developer sales. How many people attend a sales presentation with the intention of buying? There's a reason they use the promise of gifts or cash to get you to attend. 
4. See 1. Sales drive profits. If developer sales had to compete with resales profits would go down. TS unlike cars have no inherent value when purchased "new". The unit that you get is the same, developer or resale. 
5. I wouldn't say you're naive and the ecosystem is what it is. This site is for TS owners to learn about the product and how best to use it. Many members bought originally from developers. This site simply gives you the information to make an informed decision. It leans towards resale or renting because for most people those are the most cost effective options. The reality is that most TS owners are unaware of this site and the alternate methods for using TS. Without the original developer's building out and selling those TS units the resale market we take advantage of wouldn't exist. Too many of those sales were made to people who should have never purchased TS for a variety of reasons. 

Jeff C


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## bendadin (Nov 29, 2019)

I'm thoroughly confused here.

175k Waikiki
had to buy 49k to bring in 2 PICs (bargain as it should have been 98k for both)
84k WBC front half of piggyback and no idea how many Smoky Mountains you have been piggyback is a bargain. (And yes, waiting for a piggyback to fully get set up is a long process.)

I'm not sure if there are any other purchases. Sitting at platinum. I'd say that the math has to be in your favor so I am wondering why the sour attitude. Maybe someone can firm up the ownership and cost for me if I'm just not seeing something other than a rather well put together account.


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## Braindead (Nov 29, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Why doesn't Wyndham engage the auctions on eBay and mop up all the distress sales for peanuts? I posed the question at my last Owner meeting and never got a satisfactory answer. Way above their pay-grade, I guess!





SNA27 said:


> I am suggesting an internal market place of Wyndham owners and prospective buyers. All titles will be 'verifiable' and indeed verified before being posted on the market place. I think it's workable and all it needs is some competent IT work. No need to pay exorbitant fees to dubious exit-companies. Graceful and painless exit for those who no longer can enjoy the benefits of ownership!


Most of the Wyndham contracts on eBay come from exit companies. Wyndham will never assist exit companies by bidding on eBay, that would only make the exit companies more money.

Wyndham does have 2 preferred brokers listed on the owners website for owners wanting to exit their ownership.
It may not be internal but serves the same purpose along with Ovations. Wyndham may buy contracts through those two preferred brokers.


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## Grammarhero (Nov 29, 2019)

bendadin said:


> I'm thoroughly confused here.
> 
> 175k Waikiki
> had to buy 49k to bring in 2 PICs (bargain as it should have been 98k for both)
> ...


OP spent $183k to get 1.425 million pts and founders level.  With $134/1k telesales and two PIC, he could have spent only $123k to achieve such.

He also initially called resale buyers parasites and me greedy, which he apologized for.


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## bobinmich (Nov 29, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I regret nothing. I made the best decision as I saw it when it was presented to me! Shame on those who would cheat a willing buyer like me!!
> In a bazaar, I am sure there's always a person who gets a better bargain than others! It doesn't bother me! That's the nature of the bazaar!
> I bought with the consent of my sons and their promise to pay the MF after we're gone and to continue to enjoy the benefits I have bestowed upon them! I just have to make sure my VIP benefits accrue to them as well!



SNA27.....I love owners like you....Wyndham NEEDS them or it would never survive.  Plain and simple.  My brother and his wife bought into Wyndham 4 times through the developer and have spent a lot of dough as they are goldVIP with 700k one yr, 1M next etc....I bought my 2 contracts on ebay 238k and 126k for a penny on the dollar or so.  They "did not know" about resale....they will never buy developer points again...BUT they did and are VIP and any resale points they buy in the future gets discounted when used, so they got nice benefits for their cash....BUT like you...they paid for them.  I, personally, am FAR too cheap to pay developer prices...but WE need people to or Wyndham as we know it, would cease to exist.   I don't take offense to any of your posts, I just choose to keep my money in my pocket.  God Bless you!  Bob


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 29, 2019)

bobinmich said:


> SNA27.....I love owners like you....Wyndham NEEDS them or it would never survive.  Plain and simple.  My brother and his wife bought into Wyndham 4 times through the developer and have spent a lot of dough as they are goldVIP with....I bought my 2 contracts on ebay .BUT they did and are VIP and any resale points they buy in the future gets discounted when used, so they got nice benefits for their cash....BUT like you...they paid for them.  I, personally, am FAR too cheap to pay developer prices...but WE need people to or Wyndham as we know it, would cease to exist.   I don't take offense to any of your posts, I just choose to keep my money in my pocket.  God Bless you!  Bob



Hey - both you  and your brother can learn how to improve your points usage from the sharing of information on TUG
As I posted earlier - Sunk money is sunk money / the value of TS ownership is all about vacationing in a way that brings you and your family joy .

FRUGAL -
"cheap is good too - but frugal implies you put extra thought into it "

The Scots are never cheap - but the frugal genes run deep .
My wife is 3rd generation Canadian of Scottish heritage
"
good story - when our (now adult) children were in elementary school-  the PTA would have a grandparent's tea
so they could see the school . They were looking for nice decorating ideas , including fresh flowers on the tables  . My wife (and some other moms)
said no problem - they could pick them up from a church - post funerals - for free . 
Folks whose genetic heritage did not include "that much frugal " were aghast .

FRUGAL


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## raygo123 (Nov 29, 2019)

Did the original poster grow up in a bubble with their only entertainment was a dictionary?

Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk


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## SNA27 (Nov 29, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> I’ve been critical of the OP.  To be fair to OP, he wanted VIP Founders at $1.4 million developer pts.  With telesales at $134/1k and two PIC, nowadays, the minimum he needs to spend is $123k. So, to be optimistic, he overpaid by $60k.



Wyndham never mentioned telesales. Even the manager from Kona, whom I consult before any purchase decision or to fact-check a sales pitch, has never mentioned it. I plan to text him about it. I came to know about it on this BBS. Secret bazaar within a bazaar! Not much I can do about it now! :-(


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## Grammarhero (Nov 29, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Wyndham never mentioned telesales. Even the manager from Kona, whom I consult before any purchase decision or to fact-check a sales pitch, has never mentioned it. I plan to text him about it. I came to know about it on this BBS. Secret bazaar within a bazaar! Not much I can do about it now! :-(


Of course he didn't mention telesales at $134/1k pts.  He wants you to spend as much money as you can with him.  His commission is about 6 percent.  This means he's gotten $11k from you.

If I didn't have elderly parents, wife, and child to support financially, I'd spend the $26k buying 192k telesales pts at $134/1k pts and two (2) PICs to reach VIP Gold.

On the bright side, it's NOT like you overpaid by $173k.  You overpaid by $60k, which might not be that much in the long run.  Get your family and kids to learn how to use TS wisely, and stay on TUG.


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## SNA27 (Nov 29, 2019)

bendadin said:


> I'm thoroughly confused here.
> 
> 175k Waikiki
> had to buy 49k to bring in 2 PICs (bargain as it should have been 98k for both)
> ...



I didn't know anything about PICs when I purchased 175k points in Waikiki Beach Walk. Later on that day, I came to about PICs on this website. I called the manager with whom I had built a rapport and ​he explained it further.​ And I bought 2 PICs on eBay (Prime weeks in Fraser Colorado). The seller was a nice gentleman from Florida who seemed to know a lot about Timeshares and PICs. I went in the next day to add the PICs. The manager said he can get permission to add the 2 PICs if I purchase an additional 49k points. So they canceled the prior contract and made a new one for 224k points. If I had prior knowledge of PICs and walked in on the first day with them, I guess 98k purchase would have sufficed. Since the manager went out of his way to make things happen for me and I liked his straightforward approach, I didn't demur. Moreover, they work on commission and spent so many hours and I felt obligated to honor the contract. I still consult that manager whenever I am bamboozled by a sales guy!


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## Grammarhero (Nov 29, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I didn't know anything about PICs when I purchased 175k points in Waikiki Beach Walk. Later on that day, I came to about PICs on this website.
> I called the manager with whom I had built a rapport and ​he
> explained it further.​And I bought 2 PICs on eBay (Prime weeks in Fraser Colorado). The seller was a nice gentleman from Florida who seemed to know a lot about Timeshares and PICs. I went in the next day to add the PICs. The manager said he can get permission to add the 2 PICs if I purchase an additional 49k points. So they canceled the prior contract and made a new one for 224k points. If I had prior knowledge of PICs and walked in on the first day with them, I guess 98k purchase would have sufficed. Since the manager went out of his way to make things happen for me and I liked his straightforward approach, I didn't demur. Moreover, they work on commission and spent so many hours and I felt obligated to honor the contract. I still consult that manager whenever I am bamboozled by a sales guy!


We'd advise you to delete the manager's phone number and not to communicate with him/her any longer.  Most of us on tug are on the "Do not gift" list, meaning we are essentially banned from sales presentations.  We don't get the $100 gift, but we are fine with that.

Sales people and managers can be dishonest and have their wallets at heart, not yours.  The sales manager could have easily told you about telesales, but he obviously didn't.

Like I said, I LOVE Wyndham.  I just dislike their sales practices.


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## bobinmich (Nov 29, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Wyndham never mentioned telesales. Even the manager from Kona, whom I consult before any purchase decision or to fact-check a sales pitch, has never mentioned it. I plan to text him about it. I came to know about it on this BBS. Secret bazaar within a bazaar! Not much I can do about it now! :-(



My limited experience with wyndham….and ESPECIALLY their sales team....they will NEVER tell you of a deal to benefit YOU and cost THEM money.... They want EVERY EVERY EVERY dollar they can get from you...that is VERY clear with their aggressive sales tactics/pitches EVERY time you walk in the door at a location...


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## chapjim (Nov 29, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I didn't know anything about PICs when I purchased 175k points in Waikiki Beach Walk. Later on that day, I came to about PICs on this website.
> I called the manager with whom I had built a rapport and ​he
> explained it further.​And I bought 2 PICs on eBay (Prime weeks in Fraser Colorado). The seller was a nice gentleman from Florida who seemed to know a lot about Timeshares and PICs. I went in the next day to add the PICs. The manager said he can get permission to add the 2 PICs if I purchase an additional 49k points. So they canceled the prior contract and made a new one for 224k points. If I had prior knowledge of PICs and walked in on the first day with them, I guess 98k purchase would have sufficed. Since the manager went out of his way to make things happen for me and I liked his straightforward approach, I didn't demur. Moreover, they work on commission and spent so many hours and I felt obligated to honor the contract. I still consult that manager whenever I am bamboozled by a sales guy!



We've had a half-dozen or so managers with whom we had built a rapport.  Despite promises to help us book reservations, find good deals, and be our BFFs, none of them ever did anything useful once we had signed the contract, left a check, and departed the resort.

I may be wrong but I'm guessing your guy will stay with you as long as he sees sales in the future, but don't be surprised if the rapport diminishes once he realizes there are no additional sales in the cards.

Call me cynical and skeptical in addition to the other things you've called me.


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## Cyrus24 (Nov 29, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Most of us on tug are on the "Do not gift" list,


  Not sure that statement is true.  I go to updates, as do others.  You have to learn about the BS in order to be able to beat the BS.  And, to help others avoid the BS trap.  A trap that many of us have gotten in to (and out of).  I'm going to Myrtle Beach next week and have every intention of getting a bunch of Reward points.  Having just made a telesales purchase, I think I'll be able to stick to the NO script in regard to any offers.  A content VIPP owner (with PIC's).


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## jules54 (Nov 29, 2019)

Omg how I smiled when I read this post. As many other Tuggers I have bought once from the developer with my Wyndham Points. Added to those points with several cheap cheap resale point contracts at the same resort. This was in a time you could still achieve Platinum level though resale if you bought one contract from the developer. I did achieve Platinum and then continued to get Wyndham contract at different resorts the last 5 owners gave me and even sometimes paid the transfer fees. All these points fall under my VIP privileges. Many of my contracts have expiration dates on them. The contracts starting expiring this year. Now I'm a gold VIP with most of my contracts expiring around 2024. I'll still own 4 contracts that are deeded US properties which will be over 700,000 pts. I will no longer be VIP anything lol. Though the years I've devised must skill through experience at booking my reservations. Even though 10 of my 11 contracts are resale I'm still paying over 10,000.00 per year in maintenance fees. So I'm definitely paying my share. 
I've developed a rental business with my Wyndham points. I retired 3 years ago so I really have the time to put into it. I rent off Craigslist, VRBO,Airbnb and of course referrals from clients. I spend a minimum of 2 hours per day searching the website for current and future bookings. All this is legal and follows regulations of Wyndham. I make good money and I enjoy doing it. As someone mentioned it's the hunt. As so many things in life you get out what you put in. I always advise people that own timeshare STUDY YOUR MEMBERSHIPS AND CONTRACTS KNOW WHAT YOU OWN. Some owners complain because they believe people that rent their points are taking all the good reservations. Every owner has the same chance it's kind of right place right time thing.
I also own timeshare contracts in different organizations besides Wyndham. None bought from Developer by me. I also own 11 contracts at the same small resort in Playa Del Carmen,MX. We spend our winters there and rent several units there also. Mostly to people who are familiar with the resort. There is another 12,000.00 a year in maintenance fees. I've been told I own the most timeshare time at that resort. There are also full time owners at this resort.
I also own a couple of other resorts. 
I belong to all the big exchange companies II,RCI,SFX,DAE any that require yearly memberships one of Resort group pays those. I use the exchange companies mostly for extra weeks for my personal use. I do use my Timeshares never banking Wyndham points unless I have to find something in Mexico that Wyndham has nothing. We have 3 grown sons and 4 grandkids. Everyone of my family has been on a timeshare vacation several times.
Everyone loves my Timeshares, but I also know my kids would never put the time into them as I have though the years. All their names are on one Wyndham contract that will expire. When I die they can decide if they want the other resorts both Wyndham and non Wyndham. If not nobody can to forced to inherit a timeshare.
I feel I have a masters degree in timesharing. It's taken 25 years most of them before TUG. TUG is the best information out there on everything travel related.
Enjoy Enjoy Enjoy use what you bought no matter how much you paid for it or where you got it. That is the best revenge for the sales weasels.


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## bobinmich (Nov 29, 2019)

I "LOVE" my Wyndham TS....I bought 238k points resale on ebay last year for 596.00 had (4) great vacations with it this year, 7 nights Ocean walk/Daytona, 6 nights Cypress Palms/Orlando, 6 nights Kingsgate/Williamsburg and 5 nights in Nashville.  ALL for 91. TOTAL per month (MF/taxes/membership, soup to nuts).   HOW can you beat that?  Bought another 126k (256.00 resale on ebay) in process now.  Both at KINGSGATE Williamsburg.   I love Wyndham!    Bob


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## rapmarks (Nov 29, 2019)

jules54 said:


> Omg how I smiled when I read this post. As many other Tuggers I have bought once from the developer with my Wyndham Points. Added to those points with several cheap cheap resale point contracts at the same resort. This was in a time you could still achieve Platinum level though resale if you bought one contract from the developer. I did achieve Platinum and then continued to get Wyndham contract at different resorts the last 5 owners gave me and even sometimes paid the transfer fees. All these points fall under my VIP privileges. Many of my contracts have expiration dates on them. The contracts starting expiring this year. Now I'm a gold VIP with most of my contracts expiring around 2024. I'll still own 4 contracts that are deeded US properties which will be over 700,000 pts. I will no longer be VIP anything lol. Though the years I've devised must skill through experience at booking my reservations. Even though 10 of my 11 contracts are resale I'm still paying over 10,000.00 per year in maintenance fees. So I'm definitely paying my share.
> I've developed a rental business with my Wyndham points. I retired 3 years ago so I really have the time to put into it. I rent off Craigslist, VRBO,Airbnb and of course referrals from clients. I spend a minimum of 2 hours per day searching the website for current and future bookings. All this is legal and follows regulations of Wyndham. I make good money and I enjoy doing it. As someone mentioned it's the hunt. As so many things in life you get out what you put in. I always advise people that own timeshare STUDY YOUR MEMBERSHIPS AND CONTRACTS KNOW WHAT YOU OWN. Some owners complain because they believe people that rent their points are taking all the good reservations. Every owner has the same chance it's kind of right place right time thing.
> I also own timeshare contracts in different organizations besides Wyndham. None bought from Developer by me. I also own 11 contracts at the same small resort in Playa Del Carmen,MX. We spend our winters there and rent several units there also. Mostly to people who are familiar with the resort. There is another 12,000.00 a year in maintenance fees. I've been told I own the most timeshare time at that resort. There are also full time owners at this resort.
> I also own a couple of other resorts.
> ...


Very interesting. I never knew that some could expire


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## Grammarhero (Nov 29, 2019)

jules54 said:


> Omg how I smiled when I read this post. As many other Tuggers I have bought once from the developer with my Wyndham Points. Added to those points with several cheap cheap resale point contracts at the same resort. This was in a time you could still achieve Platinum level though resale if you bought one contract from the developer. I did achieve Platinum and then continued to get Wyndham contract at different resorts the last 5 owners gave me and even sometimes paid the transfer fees. All these points fall under my VIP privileges. Many of my contracts have expiration dates on them. The contracts starting expiring this year. Now I'm a gold VIP with most of my contracts expiring around 2024. I'll still own 4 contracts that are deeded US properties which will be over 700,000 pts. I will no longer be VIP anything lol. Though the years I've devised must skill through experience at booking my reservations. Even though 10 of my 11 contracts are resale I'm still paying over 10,000.00 per year in maintenance fees. So I'm definitely paying my share.
> I've developed a rental business with my Wyndham points. I retired 3 years ago so I really have the time to put into it. I rent off Craigslist, VRBO,Airbnb and of course referrals from clients. I spend a minimum of 2 hours per day searching the website for current and future bookings. All this is legal and follows regulations of Wyndham. I make good money and I enjoy doing it. As someone mentioned it's the hunt. As so many things in life you get out what you put in. I always advise people that own timeshare STUDY YOUR MEMBERSHIPS AND CONTRACTS KNOW WHAT YOU OWN. Some owners complain because they believe people that rent their points are taking all the good reservations. Every owner has the same chance it's kind of right place right time thing.
> I also own timeshare contracts in different organizations besides Wyndham. None bought from Developer by me. I also own 11 contracts at the same small resort in Playa Del Carmen,MX. We spend our winters there and rent several units there also. Mostly to people who are familiar with the resort. There is another 12,000.00 a year in maintenance fees. I've been told I own the most timeshare time at that resort. There are also full time owners at this resort.
> I also own a couple of other resorts.
> ...


Which post made you happy?  You mean the OP’s original posts?


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## SNA27 (Nov 29, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> We'd advise you to delete the manager's phone number and not to communicate with him/her any longer.  Most of us on tug are on the "Do not gift" list, meaning we are essentially banned from sales presentations.  We don't get the $100 gift, but we are fine with that.
> 
> Sales people and managers can be dishonest and have their wallets at heart, not yours.  The sales manager could have easily told you about telesales, but he obviously didn't.
> 
> Like I said, I LOVE Wyndham.  I just dislike their sales practices.



I don't understand this.


Grammarhero said:


> We'd advise you to delete the manager's phone number and not to communicate with him/her any longer.  Most of us on tug are on the "Do not gift" list, meaning we are essentially banned from sales presentations.  We don't get the $100 gift, but we are fine with that.
> 
> Sales people and managers can be dishonest and have their wallets at heart, not yours.  The sales manager could have easily told you about telesales, but he obviously didn't.
> 
> Like I said, I LOVE Wyndham.  I just dislike their sales practices.



Are you saying I can get blacklisted just for using this TUG BBS?
It could be a relief considering that I usually get marked down for 'extra special treatment'! They never seem to give up on me! How else did they get $183k out of a frugal person like me! Not cheap but frugal as T-Dot-Traveller so eloquently elucidated!
I would not broad-brush all salespeople. I have met good ones and bad ones! I find it much easier to say NO to bad ones! Sad part, though, is jerks press on and get even jerkier!


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## Grammarhero (Nov 29, 2019)

bobinmich said:


> I "LOVE" my Wyndham TS....I bought 238k points resale on ebay last year for 596.00 had (4) great vacations with it this year, 7 nights Ocean walk/Daytona, 6 nights Cypress Palms/Orlando, 6 nights Kingsgate/Williamsburg and 5 nights in Nashville.  ALL for 91. TOTAL per month (MF/taxes/membership, soup to nuts).   HOW can you beat that?  Bought another 126k (256.00 resale on ebay) in process now.  Both at KINGSGATE Williamsburg.   I love Wyndham!    Bob


So Kingsgate is $4.6/1k MF?


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## Grammarhero (Nov 29, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I don't understand this.
> 
> 
> Are you saying I can get blacklisted just for using this TUG BBS?
> ...


You won’t get blacklisted for using tug.  You might if you wear the official tug t shirts.  https://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index...on-early-tug-uniform-tshirts-for-sale.226814/


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## SNA27 (Nov 29, 2019)

chapjim said:


> We've had a half-dozen or so managers with whom we had built a rapport.  Despite promises to help us book reservations, find good deals, and be our BFFs, none of them ever did anything useful once we had signed the contract, left a check, and departed the resort.
> 
> I may be wrong but I'm guessing your guy will stay with you as long as he sees sales in the future, but don't be surprised if the rapport diminishes once he realizes there are no additional sales in the cards.
> 
> Call me cynical and skeptical in addition to the other things you've called me.



This manager from Kona (Michael Neal Atkins) took care of problems with the PICs appearing and disappearing in the first few weeks (back office screw-up). I found out several months later that my Amex Gift card was not activated. He got it reissued! I would not ask him to book reservations etc. which are not in his lane or sphere of influence. BFF, never! Professional relationship based on mutual respect is all one should expect and that's all you will get! Just tap his knowledge and advice when needed. A self-professed cynic should have been skeptical of any rosy promises!

You know, cynical and sketical go together as 'horse and carriage' as well! Can't have one without the other! Ha ha ha! And a sardonic sense of humor to boot!
I don't want to go back and count like CNN does, but you have me beat by a wide margin!
I like many of your posts! Salud!


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## bobinmich (Nov 29, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> So Kingsgate is $4.6/1k MF?[/QUOT
> 
> I don't know how to post a picture.  but here is the info:
> MF  646.15
> ...


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## Grammarhero (Nov 29, 2019)

Holy crap.  Kingsgate is $4.63/1k.  That’s even cheaper than natl Harbor at $4.84


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## bobinmich (Nov 29, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Holy crap.  Kingsgate is $4.63/1k.  That’s even cheaper than natl Harbor at $4.84



That's why I bought an additional contract at Kingsgate.  It seemed like a good MF price.  Those are the only 2 contracts I own (well, waiting for second one to complete, Wyndham as has it since 9/25)
So it is a good value?  Seemed like it was to me.   Bob


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## Grammarhero (Nov 29, 2019)

bobinmich said:


> That's why I bought an additional contract at Kingsgate.  It seemed like a good MF price.  Those are the only 2 contracts I own (well, waiting for second one to complete, Wyndham as has it since 9/25)
> So it is a good value?  Seemed like it was to me.   Bob


Very good value.  Pretty much the lowest I’ve seen next to canterbury and Bali hai.


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## paxsarah (Nov 29, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Holy crap.  Kingsgate is $4.63/1k.  That’s even cheaper than natl Harbor at $4.84



This completely depends on the fixed week it’s converted from. (Kingsgate may also have UDI; I’m not sure.) Any older resort with converted fixed weeks may have excellent MFs and poor MFs depending on what week is converted.


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## bobinmich (Nov 29, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> This completely depends on the fixed week it’s converted from. (Kingsgate may also have UDI; I’m not sure.) Any older resort with converted fixed weeks may have excellent MFs and poor MFs depending on what week is converted.



I'm new at this....So....with the same resort....not "all" MF are the same?  so someone with 238k points at kingsgate may be paying a different MF?  I looked at the 2019 MF thread and it shows the exact same as I am paying...?


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 29, 2019)

rapmarks said:


> Very interesting. I never knew that some could expire


El Cid / Wyndham point contracts do expire . Without knowing details , I assume  the underlying  “deed” is actually a RTU Mexican contract.

Jules54 said hers expire in about 4 years / about 2024 and that is likely the same for most existing El Cid / Wyndham point contracts .
I am pretty sure these have not been developer sold for quite a few years & that El Cid sells their own points in new sales presentations .


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## Grammarhero (Nov 29, 2019)

In my defense, I did get 158k Grand Desert for $2. I tried to get a 252k natl Harbor for $1, but someone beat me to it.


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## paxsarah (Nov 29, 2019)

bobinmich said:


> I'm new at this....So....with the same resort....not "all" MF are the same?  so someone with 238k points at kingsgate may be paying a different MF?  I looked at the 2019 MF thread and it shows the exact same as I am paying...?


When it’s a converted fixed week, it completely depends on the underlying contract. There may be UDI contracts at Kingsgate as well. Yes, if your contracts at Kingsgate are in the low $4/k range then yes, you are lucky that you ended up with low MFs there because no, they’re not all so low.


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## SNA27 (Nov 29, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> This completely depends on the fixed week it’s converted from. (Kingsgate may also have UDI; I’m not sure.) Any older resort with converted fixed weeks may have excellent MFs and poor MFs depending on what week is converted.



Here's an example from Flagstaff. There are 1-bedroom and 2 bedroom condos in Ridgewood and Tanglewood. All units pay the same MF. But 1 bedroom FW converts to 105k points and a 2 bedroom unit converts to 186k points. So, the smaller units suffer a greater MF/1000! I am still pissed they lied about the MF when I repeatedly asked them. It should be around $50 per month, they said. It ends up being $88 per month! $10 per 1000 points. If they had sold me the fixed week in a 2Br (186K points), it would have been a reasonable $5.70/1000. Wyndham did not act in my best interest! Bad faith, imo!


Fear not the sword-wielding enemies; fear befriendment by enemies! - Saint Tiruvalluvar


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## MoPops (Nov 29, 2019)

My goodness.  I’ve tried to follow this thread for a few days, but it’s pretty frustrating.  Sometimes it seems like 90% is going over my head. Why does getting the most out of your TS require a lawyer to read the contract, a planner to help you maximize points, and two accountants to determine what you actually own, and what you owe.  
At this point I fear I will never achieve TS competence, let alone expert level.. 
OP, I admire your attitude. I enjoy your posts.  Thanks all for your participation.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SNA27 (Nov 29, 2019)

Do your due diligence, they say! Easier said than done when there's knowledge asymmetry and no right to discovery to restore symmetry! 
Just walk away at the slightest perception of cognitive dissonance! Salespeople radiate cognitive dissonance! Unfortunately, decent people resolve this dissonance in salesguy's favor giving them undue benefit of the doubt! Now that I know a lot more than I did before I became an accidental owner, albeit very happy with the product per se, I am going attend presentations every chance I get and give them a piece of my mind! It should be fun turning the tables on them! Thanks to TUG BBS!


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## SNA27 (Nov 30, 2019)

- Deleted -


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## rapmarks (Nov 30, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Do your due diligence, they say! Easier said than done when there's knowledge asymmetry and no right to discovery to restore symmetry!
> Just walk away at the slightest perception of cognitive dissonance! Salespeople radiate cognitive dissonance! Unfortunately, decent people resolve this dissonance in salesguy's favor giving them undue benefit of the doubt! Now that I know a lot more than I did before I became an accidental owner, albeit very happy with the product per se, I am going attend presentations every chance I get and give them a piece of my mind! It should be fun turning the tables on them! Thanks to TUG BBS!


You know they are trained to have an answer to every thing you say.  That is a recipe to end up spending more money


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## schoolmarm (Nov 30, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Why doesn't Wyndham engage the auctions on eBay and mop up all the distress sales for peanuts? I posed the question at my last Owner meeting and never got a satisfactory answer. Way above their pay-grade, I guess!


Wyndham DOES buy from eBay Auctions....There is apparently a team that does this. 
Wait...I heard that from a few saleswomen.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 30, 2019)

MoPops said:


> My goodness.  I’ve tried .....  Sometimes it seems like 90% is going over my head. Why does getting the most out of your TS require a lawyer to read the contract, a planner to help you maximize points, and two accountants to determine what you actually own,.....
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Of course on TUG - you get all those professionals sharing their knowledge for free with others, and in return learning from others .i would also add members with IT knowledge AND just a bunch of folks who are very good at figuring out “stuff” and retaining all the incremental knowledge in their head .

Keep reading - when I first found TUG , I had no clue why anyone would own more than one timeshare & later when I first started using “recent post”and reading occasional Wyndham forum threads - I had no idea what ARP , EOY etc. meant .


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## raygo123 (Nov 30, 2019)

jules54 said:


> Omg how I smiled when I read this post. As many other Tuggers I have bought once from the developer with my Wyndham Points. Added to those points with several cheap cheap resale point contracts at the same resort. This was in a time you could still achieve Platinum level though resale if you bought one contract from the developer. I did achieve Platinum and then continued to get Wyndham contract at different resorts the last 5 owners gave me and even sometimes paid the transfer fees. All these points fall under my VIP privileges. Many of my contracts have expiration dates on them. The contracts starting expiring this year. Now I'm a gold VIP with most of my contracts expiring around 2024. I'll still own 4 contracts that are deeded US properties which will be over 700,000 pts. I will no longer be VIP anything lol. Though the years I've devised must skill through experience at booking my reservations. Even though 10 of my 11 contracts are resale I'm still paying over 10,000.00 per year in maintenance fees. So I'm definitely paying my share.
> I've developed a rental business with my Wyndham points. I retired 3 years ago so I really have the time to put into it. I rent off Craigslist, VRBO,Airbnb and of course referrals from clients. I spend a minimum of 2 hours per day searching the website for current and future bookings. All this is legal and follows regulations of Wyndham. I make good money and I enjoy doing it. As someone mentioned it's the hunt. As so many things in life you get out what you put in. I always advise people that own timeshare STUDY YOUR MEMBERSHIPS AND CONTRACTS KNOW WHAT YOU OWN. Some owners complain because they believe people that rent their points are taking all the good reservations. Every owner has the same chance it's kind of right place right time thing.
> I also own timeshare contracts in different organizations besides Wyndham. None bought from Developer by me. I also own 11 contracts at the same small resort in Playa Del Carmen,MX. We spend our winters there and rent several units there also. Mostly to people who are familiar with the resort. There is another 12,000.00 a year in maintenance fees. I've been told I own the most timeshare time at that resort. There are also full time owners at this resort.
> I also own a couple of other resorts.
> ...


For Mexico try HSI, HOLIDAY SYSTEMS INC.  I own VIDA and my ownership is free and an upgrade option. And ownership levels.  They rent and specializes in travel to Mexico as the are located on the west coast.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 30, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> ........Now that I know a lot more than I did before I became an accidental owner, albeit very happy with the product per se, I am going attend presentations every chance I get and give them a piece of my mind! It should be fun turning the tables on them! Thanks to TUG BBS!



Some of us enjoy the “presentation game”and some don’t . There are some funny TUG threads on this topic - including one about - “fastest time out - with a free gift .

If you enjoy going - they can be a source of information(sort of) No TS sales persons goal is to lie to you- the goal is to make a sale . Therefore getting “relationships- rapport” with you is important and some truth is key to this . The truth could be about where the best restaurants in town are found or it could be something  about the product that they think will grab your attention. Omissions are as common as straight out lies .
also stretches { ie - you COULD get Chistmas week in Pompano Beach with the points in this contract / not likely but possible - like seeing flying reindeer }

Personally I am good for one about every 4 years  . Sometimes the true statements give you big picture information . (we own in Mexico); - in 2010 I was told at a Mayan Palace presentation while chatting - “of course we still sell Sea Garden brand to Mexican Nationals” ( in 2010 this brand was no longer being sold to gringos) Last week when on vacation at Mayan Palace / Vidanta Nuevo Vallarta , I had a non presentation brief chat with a very nice sale person ( who was on their sales force that sells to Mexican  Nationals) I asked ? -do you still sell Sea Garden ... and got a confirmation of yes . That tells me something about one aspect of Vidanta’s big picture AND that those SG & MP buildings  will be around for quite a few more years .
 Meanwhile the sale team that sells Americans and Canadians - regularly implies to existing
Sea Garden and Mayan Palace owners that those buildings may be torn down and they will loose out if they don’t upgrade to Grand Mayan or Grand Luxxe .  LOL

SNA27- if you go a lot and give a lot of pushback - the sales people could start calling you
a parasite - that just comes for the free gifts
LOL


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## jules54 (Nov 30, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Which post made you happy?  You mean the OP’s original posts?


I didn't say they made me happy. I said they made me smile. As in entertainment. All the posts not only the OP. Bought back so many memories of the love/hate relationship I've had with my Wyndham and other Timeshares though the years. Everything I've learned, mostly from Tuggers. The relationships I've established both business and personal with others owners,reservation customer service,deed and contract departments. I've never established a relationship with a developer sales person. Quite the opposite of that lol. I've been blacklisted from Wyndham presentations. Most of people at presentation desk don't see it until they drill down a bit.
Still go to a few presentations a year with other organizations. Usually short and sweet. Toured a bunch in Mexico as they give the best gifts usually cash. I have bought and recinded a few times also. Which proves that even seasoned owners can be presented a new hook. I even bought once in Puerto Adventours, MX that encluded a high yield bond type lease and possible full time ownership in a future development. I recinded on this after doing some research. This one really made me angry as it was a US citizen selling to other US citizens a fraudulent product. I got all my money back when I recinded. That wasn't enough for me. I wanted other people who had purchased to know. I posted on TUG,Sweaky Wheel, other bulletin boards. I contacted the FBI. Eventually the head people where arrested and brought back to the US by US Marshalls. First charged with a different act of fraud. Once that was done and William Bowen served 18 months in prison in Denver plus restitution. The day he was to leave his half way house he was charged with mail fraud on the timeshare scheme. Eventually plead Quilty and is now awaiting his sentence.


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## raygo123 (Dec 1, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Some of us enjoy the “presentation game”and some don’t . There are some funny TUG threads on this topic - including one about - “fastest time out - with a free gift .
> 
> If you enjoy going - they can be a source of information(sort of) No TS sales persons goal is to lie to you- the goal is to make a sale . Therefore getting “relationships- rapport” with you is important and some truth is key to this . The truth could be about where the best restaurants in town are found or it could be something  about the product that they think will grab your attention. Omissions are as common as straight out lies .
> also stretches { ie - you COULD get Chistmas week in Pompano Beach with the points in this contract / not likely but possible - like seeing flying reindeer }
> ...


They told me that every five to ten years they tear the buildings down and build new ones in their place.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


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## Grammarhero (Dec 1, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> They told me that every five to ten years they tear the buildings down and build new ones in their place.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


That is hilarious.


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