# Vistana Now Part of Marriott Vacations Worldwide



## Henry M. (Sep 4, 2018)

I just received the following e-mail. I think the benefits were already pretty much known. The 25% hotel discount isn't much better than say AAA, web-site discounts, or corporate discounts. I think SPG had a similar discount (maybe even 35%), but I never found it to be better than what I could find online or get with my AAA membership.

_Dear Owner,

In recent months, ILG — the parent company of Vistana Signature Experiences — announced its plans to combine with Marriott Vacations Worldwide to create a leading global provider of premier vacation experiences. 

The combined company brings together several of the most coveted lifestyle vacation ownership brands under a single entity, including Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, Marriott Vacation Club, Grand Residences by Marriott, St. Regis Residence Club and The Ritz-Carlton Destination Club, providing an unparalleled collection of world-class vacation ownership resorts and services. 

I am pleased to share that the transaction is complete. Through this combination, we are excited to introduce new opportunities for Owners.


*Owners in the Vistana Signature Network can now use their ownership to access Marriott hotels and resorts worldwide through the SPG program. *

Previously, hotel loyalty points received in connection with your vacation ownership were only eligible to be used at SPG-branded hotels. Now, you have even more choices at over 6,500 hotels and resorts across 29 unique brands in 127 countries, including Marriott-branded hotels — all while continuing to receive preferred status recognition as a Platinum Elite member in the SPG program.

*Receive expanded and enhanced discounts at Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, and Marriott Vacation Club resorts.*

All Owners will now receive 25% off available nightly rental rates, as well as exclusive discounts on certain food, beverage and activities at participating outlets, at Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, and Marriott Vacation Club resorts, subject to applicable terms and conditions. To make a reservation or learn more, log in tovistana.com and select Owner Exclusives on your Owner Dashboard. Additional information may be provided at time of check-in.


We are extremely excited about the future. We want to assure you that this is only the beginning as we continue to work hard to determine whether additional benefits and services could potentially be made available in the future from our newly combined company. Our goals remain consistent: to provide the highest-quality vacation experiences and greatest flexibility for our valued Owners. 

To view a list of frequently asked questions, please visit *vistana.com/news*. For the latest news regarding SPG and Marriott Rewards, visit *members.marriott.com*.

Best regards,




Steve Weisz 
President and Chief Executive Officer 
Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation 

Vistana Owners who also own with Marriott Vacation Club will receive separate announcement communications specific to their ownership._​


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## DannyTS (Sep 4, 2018)

This email is very helpful to owners who have been sleeping for the last several months.


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## WahooWah (Sep 4, 2018)

How does one now address the name of the company that runs a Westin or Sheraton Vacation Club?

Is it Marriott Vacations Worldwide?
Is it Vistana Signature Experiences? (Is this entity/name still valid?  If so, does anyone know for how long?)
Is is Westin Vacation Club owned by Marriott Vacations Worldwide?


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## TravelTime (Sep 4, 2018)

The CEO signed as Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation. So that must be the parent name. Many companies have sub-brands that are different than the parent company’s name. We usually have no idea of who owns who anyway. It is possible they will keep the Westin and Sheraton brand names and get rid of Vistana since it is no longer really needed as a name to link Westin and Sheraon, plus no one knows who Vistana is. I own a Westin timeshare and I never use the Vistana name to refer to it.


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## Helios (Sep 4, 2018)

Time to change the forum's name.


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## TravelTime (Sep 4, 2018)

On Facebook, one of the Marriott Vacation Club groups is letting timeshare owners from Westin, Sheraton and Hyatt join. I guess they have already assumed there will be full integration.


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## PamMo (Sep 4, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> ...It is possible they will keep the Westin and Sheraton brand names and get rid of Vistana since it is no longer really needed as a name to link Westin and Sheraon, plus no one knows who Vistana is...



We can only hope! The Vistana brand was just confusing.


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## PamMo (Sep 4, 2018)

[Duplicate post]


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## DannyTS (Sep 4, 2018)

Helios said:


> Time to change the forum's name.


Until a full integration (that  may never happen), it would be a mistake IMO to merge the Marriott, Vistana forums on TUG since there are many details only specific with one or the other. I may have misunderstood your posting though


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## Tucsonadventurer (Sep 4, 2018)

For what it's worth, we went to a Marriott presentation this weekend. We were told that Hyatt was on the back burner and Vistana was the primary concern because of the hotel merger. They said each Vistana property would be assigned a new point value based on similarity to Marriott resorts. Resale owners who bought within 10 yrs would need to spend 30,000 on new Marriott points to be able to exchange in the combined program. This was a manager but does he truly know the scoop? Time will tell .


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## dioxide45 (Sep 4, 2018)

Tucsonadventurer said:


> For what it's worth, we went to a Marriott presentation this weekend. We were told that Hyatt was on the back burner and Vistana was the primary concern because of the hotel merger. They said each Vistana property would be assigned a new point value based on similarity to Marriott resorts. Resale owners who bought within 10 yrs would need to spend 30,000 on new Marriott points to be able to exchange in the combined program. This was a manager but does he truly know the scoop? Time will tell .


I suspect his lips were moving. The sales reps will know at about the same time we find out about it. He could be lucky and be right, but that doesn't mean he knew anything more now than we do.


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## mjm1 (Sep 4, 2018)

Tucsonadventurer said:


> For what it's worth, we went to a Marriott presentation this weekend. We were told that Hyatt was on the back burner and Vistana was the primary concern because of the hotel merger. They said each Vistana property would be assigned a new point value based on similarity to Marriott resorts. Resale owners who bought within 10 yrs would need to spend 30,000 on new Marriott points to be able to exchange in the combined program. This was a manager but does he truly know the scoop? Time will tell .





dioxide45 said:


> I suspect his lips were moving. The sales reps will know close to about the same time we find out about it. He could be lucky and be right, but that doesn't mean he knew anything more now than we do.



I agree with dioxide45. Time will tell of course.

What the salesman may have been trying to say is that one may have to buy 3,000 points in the Marriott program to enroll a resale Vistana week in a yet to be announced combined program. That would be consistent with what Marriott week owners who bought resale after June 2010 have to do. If that is the case, the question will be what date they use as the cut off point for resale Vistana owners. One option would be anything bought after the effective date of the acquisition by Marriott (perhaps including any purchase that was in process before the effective date.) Going back 10years doesn’t seem to relate to anything. None of us, and likely none of the sales team, knows what will happen.

As an owner in both systems I am looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

Best regards.

Mike


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## Helios (Sep 4, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> Until a full integration (that  may never happen), it would be a mistake IMO to merge the Marriott, Vistana forums on TUG since there are many details only specific with one or the other. I may have misunderstood your posting though


I just meant change the name of forum, not merge them.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 4, 2018)

Thanks @Tusconadventurer for the update. Time will tell if his lips were moving.

IMHO...They will have to do a lot better than that if they want to attract resale owners to offer their property into the trust for others to use. For $30k we could buy 20 weeks at $1500/week with getaways, rentals, Airbnb and hotels. That's 10 to 20 years of vacations with zero capital upfront, no mandatory MF obligation, and no risk of exit barriers IN ADDITION TO using our existing WKORVN OF property.  Not even sure we want to trade...but perhaps I don't understand the Marriott system.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 4, 2018)

All I can say, is Marriott better not mess with the beds at Vistana timeshares. We are staying at the Aruba Surf Club right now and the beds are so hard, they are horrible. We stayed a night at Vistana Villages before this and they were great. The hardness of the new beds is one reason we would stop going to Marriott timeshares, and if that happens it means it would be time to sell.


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## mjm1 (Sep 4, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> All I can say, is Marriott better not mess with the beds at Vistana timeshares. We are staying at the Aruba Surf Club right now and the beds are so hard, they are horrible. We stayed a night at Vistana Villages before this and they were great. The hardness of the new beds is one reason we would stop going to Marriott timeshares, and if that happens it means it would be time to sell.



I am sorry to hear that. We haven’t had issues with the beds, but I agree that that would be unbearable. Hopefully you enjoy your trip.

Best regards.

Mike


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## Carol C (Sep 4, 2018)

I wonder if all the Sheraton and Westin and other newly-affiliated resorts will be outfitted with a copy of the Book of Mormon in the bedside table.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 4, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> All I can say, is Marriott better not mess with the beds at Vistana timeshares. We are staying at the Aruba Surf Club right now and the beds are so hard, they are horrible. We stayed a night at Vistana Villages before this and they were great. The hardness of the new beds is one reason we would stop going to Marriott timeshares, and if that happens it means it would be time to sell.



Sorry to hear about the bed. It might be location specific. Our beds were fine at Ko Olina.


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## DannyTS (Sep 4, 2018)

There is a certain pressure from the Marriott owners to have access to Vistana and Hyatt especially in areas where Marriott is not present.


From the conference call transcript,  Stephen P. Weisz – MVC CEO& Director: “Turning to Slide 9. Not only will we benefit from the expanded portfolio, we will gain properties in areas that our guests and owners want to be.

With 4 vacation ownership resorts in Mexico and one on St. John, MVW will have the -- an important foothold in popular vacation destinations in Mexico and an expanded presence in the Caribbean. The addition of Hyatt Vacation Ownership also offers new destinations that will enhance our portfolio.”


The networks can be integrated the way the sales person suggested. The problem is that it is the slowest way, they would have to wait a very long time for any significant number of Vistana weeks to be enrolled. This route would certainly be preferred by the sales team but I am not sure that this is the best and fastest way to increase the bottom line of the group”


Marriott makes money with the DP, do not forget that the “skimming” is very lucrative for them. Why would they not give a good deal to  Vistana owners to enroll their weeks in the DC? Or selectively to resorts where they have less of a presence?


According to the same conference call, ILG (I assume Vistana and Hyatt) has 250,000 owners. If they offer enrollment for say 1000 dollars a week, they would make a lot of money without spending anything. Their sales team would have to sell a lot of weeks to be able to replace that potential revenue.  Also, do not forget that retail sales force is expensive for the company, I do not think that Marriott bought ILG just for some sales people to exceed their quotas.


Time will tell but I have a feeling that that sales manager will be disappointed.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 4, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Sorry to hear about the bed. It might be location specific. Our beds were fine at Ko Olina.


Perhaps, but we weren't great on the beds at Ko'Olina either. Perhaps we were in a recently remodeled unit. The beds years ago were fantastic, but we are finding that we don't like the new mattresses that they are putting in the units in the latest rounds of renovations. Beach Place Towers wasn't too bad for our single night there on Sunday, but the Surf Club isn't great. It will also take us nearly a week to figure out what light switches operate which lights. Though that is normal for most timeshares, but this one seems a little more bizarre. There actually is not a light in the master bathroom. There is one in the common entryway to the master bath, but the entry from the bedroom has the light switch way back away from the actual door. I will have to make a video about it.


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## nuwermj (Sep 5, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> From the conference call transcript, quote from Stephen P. Weisz – MVC CEO& Director: “Turning to Slide 9



Do you have a link to the trasnscript and the slides? I don't see them at the corporate investor relations site, nor on sites like SeekingAlpha. Thanks.


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## DannyTS (Sep 5, 2018)

nuwermj said:


> Do you have a link to the trasnscript and the slides? I don't see them at the corporate investor relations site, nor on sites like SeekingAlpha. Thanks.


please see attached. By the way, does anyone have the actual slides the CEO was referring to?


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## nuwermj (Sep 5, 2018)

Thanks DannyTS. The text in the posted documents is from April 30, 2018. The slides are at this URL:

http://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/static-files/67b0c3ff-d538-4d5f-82d3-4d125f821d3b


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## DannyTS (Sep 5, 2018)

nuwermj said:


> Thanks DannyTS. The text in the posted documents is from April 30, 2018. The slides are at this URL:
> 
> http://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/static-files/67b0c3ff-d538-4d5f-82d3-4d125f821d3b


i am not sure that this is the slideshow mentioned by the CEO,  slide 9 refers to new destinations for MVC owners and not to cost synergies. I am  interested in that slide because i own at Westin Lagunamar in Cancun and the MVC leadership seems to be particularly interested in the Mexican Vistana resorts. Common sense tells me that if they were to make a selective offer to  Vistana owners, places where MVC does not have presence would be included.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 5, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> i am not sure it it the slideshow mentioned by the CEO,  slide 9 refers to new destinations for MVC owners and not to cost synergies. I am  interested in that slide because i own at Westin Lagunamar in Cancun and the MVC leadership seems to be particularly interested in the Mexican Vistana resorts.


Marriott for years has owned property in Cancun. The vacant land beside Live Aqua (which is beside Lagunamar) was slated for a MVCI property that never saw the light of day. Not sure what will happen with that land, they have been trying to sell it for many years, perhaps a decade now. I suspect that is still the plan.

The only real way that they have to integrate the Mexico properties (and Aventuras) in to the DC program is through the DC exchange program. Perhaps they will offer some method to enroll those weeks or Flex points in to the DC program. We will have to wait and see.


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## DannyTS (Sep 5, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott for years has owned property in Cancun. The vacant land beside Live Aqua (which is beside Lagunamar) was slated for a MVCI property that never saw the light of day. Not sure what will happen with that land, they have been trying to sell it for many years, perhaps a decade now. I suspect that is still the plan.
> 
> The only real way that they have to integrate the Mexico properties (and Aventuras) in to the DC program is through the DC exchange program. Perhaps they will offer some method to enroll those weeks or Flex points in to the DC program. We will have to wait and see.




Concerning the land that MVC owns in Cancun, you seem to suggest that it was not developed because they were no longer interested in the location.


That may be the case or it may be because of rules and regulations or it may be the economics of that spot. When i look at the lot that MVC owns (the reddish area below), it seems pretty small in comparison with Lagunamar (blueish) , maybe one third of the square footage or less.


People with  knowledge about TS sales can give a better opinion than me, but I suspect that setting up a sales force for just a relatively small place down in Mexico might have not been the most economical route for MVC. Size matters, developers add properties in the same places even if it may not be preferred by owners who may want to travel to different locations.


Building something from scratch and integrating a gorgeous resort like Lagunamar are 2 very different stories.


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## okwiater (Sep 5, 2018)

^^ Man, Lagunamar just looks awesome, even from a satellite.


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## blondietink (Sep 5, 2018)

That lot there is just a great big hole in the ground now and has been for several years.  
I received the email detailing the MVC access for us Vistana members and clicked on the link in my Dashboard, but all that it lists are Sheraton and Westin properties.  There is no listing on Marriott Vacation clubs that will be giving the discount.  I have tried to find out where the MVC's are located, but cannot come up with anything on the Marriott site.  How exactly do I access the MVC resorts?


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## dioxide45 (Sep 5, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> Concerning the land that MVC owns in Cancun, you seem to suggest that it was not developed because they were no longer interested in the location.
> 
> 
> That may be the case or it may be because of rules and regulations or it may be the economics of that spot. When i look at the lot that MVC owns (the reddish area below), it seems pretty small in comparison with Lagunamar (blueish) , maybe one third of the square footage or less.
> ...


I suspect there were many factors that led to the land in Cancun not being developed. THe first probably being the big market crash in 2008. As you said, it likely wasn't cost effective to build there and stand up a sales force. However, they did have a small sales office at either Casa Magna or the JW Marriott. You could take timeshare presentations there, perhaps you still can. The land is small, but not much smaller than the land that Live Aqua sits on. I agree though, it is far easier to integrate an existing property in to the system than build from the ground up.


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## Helios (Sep 5, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> All I can say, is Marriott better not mess with the beds at Vistana timeshares. We are staying at the Aruba Surf Club right now and the beds are so hard, they are horrible. We stayed a night at Vistana Villages before this and they were great. The hardness of the new beds is one reason we would stop going to Marriott timeshares, and if that happens it means it would be time to sell.


Interesting.  YMMV.  I have a Sleep Number Bed with adjustable positions and my number is 100.  My wife does not get me.  Her number is 45, I think.


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## DannyTS (Sep 5, 2018)

out of curiosity, i used the google map feature to measure the area:
237000 sqf lot MVC
347000 sqf Live Aqua
800100 sqf Westin Lagunamar
Of course this is not very accurate but it gives a good indication. The MVC land is less than 70% of the Live Aqua hotel and less than 30% of the land Lagunamar sits on. Depending on the regulations (say distance from the road, parking, access etc) you may end up with less than 50% useful area to build. 
In any case, IMO the Mexican resorts including Westin Lagunamar are a great complement to the MVC portfolio.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 5, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> out of curiosity, i used the google map feature to measure the area:
> 237000 sqf lot MVC
> 347000 sqf Live Aqua
> 800100 sqf Westin Lagunamar
> ...


Could very well be the reason and also a big reason they seem to be having so much trouble selling it.


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## pacman777 (Sep 5, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> i am not sure that this is the slideshow mentioned by the CEO,  slide 9 refers to new destinations for MVC owners and not to cost synergies. I am  interested in that slide because i own at Westin Lagunamar in Cancun and the MVC leadership seems to be particularly interested in the Mexican Vistana resorts. Common sense tells me that if they were to make a selective offer to  Vistana owners, places where MVC does not have presence would be included.



So other than buying up resale Westin Lagunamar resale units as quick as possible, any other speculation or hypotheses on how we may be able to take advantage of all the upcoming change that may be coming for us Vistana timeshare owners?  Wonder if resale owners of other VOLUNTARY resorts will be able to benefit by buying into the Club points program at a nominal fee.


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## Tucsonadventurer (Sep 5, 2018)

pacman777 said:


> So other than buying up resale Westin Lagunamar resale units as quick as possible, any other speculation or hypotheses on how we may be able to take advantage of all the upcoming change that may be coming for us Vistana timeshare owners?  Wonder if resale owners of other VOLUNTARY resorts will be able to benefit by buying into the Club points program at a nominal fee.


I dont think it will be a nominal fee. We were told that they dont want to anger current Marriott owners by offering us better deals than Marriott owners especially in regards to resale and the 2010 cut off date. But you never know.


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## DannyTS (Sep 6, 2018)

Tucsonadventurer said:


> I dont think it will be a nominal fee. We were told that they dont want to anger current Marriott owners by offering us better deals than Marriott owners especially in regards to resale and the 2010 cut off date. But you never know.


The statement sounds more like what the sales person wanted to believe rather than what a multi billion dollar company would do for a fast integration. Marriott has much more to gain from doing this fast rather than at a snail pace through the retail sales department.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 6, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> The statement sounds more like what the sales person wanted to believe rather than what a multi billion dollar company would do for a fast integration. Marriott has much more to gain from doing this fast rather than at a snail pace through the retail sales department.


I guess the question is, what is a "nominal" fee? For us back in 2010, that nominal fee was $1495/$1995 for external buyers or $595/$695 internal. Today I think that fee to enroll is $2295. I wouldn't expect the nominal fee to be any less than it was back in 2010.


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## mjm1 (Sep 6, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> I guess the question is what is a "nominal" fee. For us back in 2010, that nominal fee was $1495/$1995 for external buyers or $595/$695 internal. Today I think that fee to enroll is $2295. I wouldn't expect the nominal fee to be any less than it was back in 2010.



I agree with dioxide45. This would be a reasonable approach. Marriott should want as much access to new customers to buy DC points. A relatively small fee like this would get them enrolled, give them access to the system, and then try to sell points to them. However, One nice feature of the Marriott system is that an enrolled owner can transfer/rent points to/from other enrolled owners, one doesn’t have to buy more points.

Best regards.

Mike


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## SeattleJohn2 (Sep 6, 2018)

pacman777 said:


> So other than buying up resale Westin Lagunamar resale units as quick as possible, any other speculation or hypotheses on how we may be able to take advantage of all the upcoming change that may be coming for us Vistana timeshare owners?  Wonder if resale owners of other VOLUNTARY resorts will be able to benefit by buying into the Club points program at a nominal fee.



Interestingly when we did our owner's update last week at SVV they offered to buy our 67k studio for what we paid for it if we bought into the Flex program. We bought it retail so we could pull our resale 148k Kierland into the system. They had zero interest in making an offer for our Kierland property. 

We are not interested in the Flex program so politely declined. Maybe just a coincidence.


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## DannyTS (Sep 6, 2018)

mjm1 said:


> I agree with dioxide45. This would be a reasonable approach. Marriott should want as much access to new customers to buy DC points. A relatively small fee like this would get them enrolled, give them access to the system, and then try to sell points to them. However, One nice feature of the Marriott system is that an enrolled owner can transfer/rent points to/from other enrolled owners, one doesn’t have to buy more points.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike



My bet is that MVC will try to get as many enrollments as possible. There are 250,000  Vistana  and Hyatt owners, a $2,295 enrollment fee means a $562,500,000 potential revenue for Marriott. If they allow post 2010 Marriott owners as well for a limited time, it could mean more than 1 billion in potential revenue. This is not pocket change. You have to add that Marriott makes a lot of money annually through "skimming" and club fees (that the voluntary Vistana owners are currently not paying) so they have all the reasons to have as many people as possible in the club.


Sorry for the sales people, they may have to swallow and move on.  It is not going to be bad for them though, they will be able to sell  a program with 150 high end resorts (would you rather sell that or Flex?).  Also, since these enrollments would be limited in time, the sales teams will be able to go back to normal sales and re-conversion after a while.


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## Maui_ed (Sep 6, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> My bet is that MVC will try to get as many enrollments as possible. There are 250,000  Vistana  and Hyatt owners, a $2,295 enrollment fee means a $562,500,000 potential revenue for Marriott. If they allow post 2010 Marriott owners as well for a limited time, it could mean more than 1 billion in potential revenue. This is not pocket change. You have to add that Marriott makes a lot of money annually through "skimming" and club fees (that the voluntary Vistana owners are currently not paying) so they have all the reasons to have as many people as possible in the club.
> 
> 
> Sorry for the sales people, they may have to swallow and move on.  It is not going to be bad for them though, they will be able to sell  a program with 150 high end resorts (would you rather sell that or Flex?).  Also, since these enrollments would be limited in time, the sales teams will be able to go back to normal sales and re-conversion after a while.


A combined pool of properties would be great, but that is all speculation.  I look forward to the date when Marriott announces exactly what that will look like.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 6, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> My bet is that MVC will try to get as many enrollments as possible. There are 250,000  Vistana  and Hyatt owners, a $2,295 enrollment fee means a $562,500,000 potential revenue for Marriott. If they allow post 2010 Marriott owners as well for a limited time, it could mean more than 1 billion in potential revenue. This is not pocket change. You have to add that Marriott makes a lot of money annually through "skimming" and club fees (that the voluntary Vistana owners are currently not paying) so they have all the reasons to have as many people as possible in the club.



A fraction will enroll at $2,295; they will have to lower the price significantly to attract more.  The people who will pay will be the mid-level traders (low-end too cheap) and not the premium owners who they want to attract to the trust. Premium property owners buy to use their property or will rent. When they do exchange they can already exchange to other Vistana with staroptions, and use II getaways and exchanges.  Sure it would be nice to get access to Marriott and Hyatt but it would have to be free or low cost to participate because they already can trade in these resorts via II or they can rent it out and use the money to rent elsewhere.  If the benefit can be passed on to resale buyers of the property, then they would be more likely to bite because that would add value.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 6, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> \
> 
> A fraction will enroll at $2,295; they will have to lower the price to attract more.  The people who will pay will be the mid-level traders (low-end too cheap) and not the premium owners who they want to attract to the trust. Premium property owners buy to use their property or will rent. When they do exchange they can already exchange to other Vistana with staroptions, and use II getaways and exchanges.  Sure it would be nice but it would have to be free or low cost to participate.  If the benefit can be passed on to resale buyers of the property, then they would be more likely to bite.


Correct, they won't get anywhere close to 100% enrollment. Probably less than 30% in the first year.


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## DannyTS (Sep 6, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> A fraction will enroll at $2,295; they will have to lower the price significantly to attract more.  The people who will pay will be the mid-level traders (low-end too cheap) and not the premium owners who they want to attract to the trust. Premium property owners buy to use their property or will rent. When they do exchange they can already exchange to other Vistana with staroptions, and use II getaways and exchanges.  Sure it would be nice to get access to Marriott and Hyatt but it would have to be free or low cost to participate because they already can trade in these resorts via II or they can rent it out and use the money to rent elsewhere.  If the benefit can be passed on to resale buyers of the property, then they would be more likely to bite because that would add value.


you are making an excellent point


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## pacman777 (Sep 6, 2018)

Any Marriott owners that went through the open enrollment option period when it was offered know if there was a maximum enrollment fee (cap) to enroll existing owned units. For example if I own 20 units were all of them subject to an enrollment fee or would they cap it and let you still enroll everything you owned. Also assuming that enrolling your unit in DC has no increase in value if you decide to sell it later on since it wouldn’t transfer to a resale buyer?


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## dioxide45 (Sep 6, 2018)

pacman777 said:


> Any Marriott owners that went through the open enrollment option period when it was offered know if there was a maximum enrollment fee (cap) to enroll existing owned units. For example if I own 20 units were all of them subject to an enrollment fee or would they cap it and let you still enroll everything you owned. Also assuming that enrolling your unit in DC has no increase in value if you decide to sell it later on since it wouldn’t transfer to a resale buyer?


Two or more weeks had the higher fee. There was no cap as long as the weeks were eligible.


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## controller1 (Sep 6, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Two or more weeks had the higher fee. There was no cap as long as the weeks were eligible.



So the higher fee would cover all eligible weeks for the owner with no additional fee per week?


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## dioxide45 (Sep 6, 2018)

controller1 said:


> So the higher fee would cover all eligible weeks for the owner with no additional fee per week?


Correct, no additional fee per week. The fees were as follows;

Internal Purchase
1 Week - $595
2 or more weeks - $695

External Purchase (Resale)
1 Week - $1,495
2 or more weeks - $1,995

The new fee I think is $2,295 for one or more weeks. Others have reported that when they brought in the European and Asian weeks, that they were able to enroll those for no additional costs as long as they had already paid the maximum fee for two or more weeks. So if they ever allow enrollment of Westin and Sheraton weeks, it is possible that Marriott owners could enroll them for no additional cost.


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## pacman777 (Sep 6, 2018)

Based on your example from the past, an owner with 20 resale weeks would pay a flat $1,995 to enroll all 20 weeks?  It is not $1,995 per week ownership?


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## dioxide45 (Sep 6, 2018)

pacman777 said:


> Based on your example from the past, an owner with 20 resale weeks would pay a flat $1,995 to enroll all 20 weeks?  It is not $1,995 per week ownership?


Correct, $1995 for all the weeks, not for each week.


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## dsmrp (Sep 6, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Correct, no additional fee per week.
> ...
> 
> The new fee I think is $2,295 for one or more weeks. Others have reported that when they brought in the European and Asian weeks, that they were able to enroll those for no additional costs as long as they had already paid the maximum fee for two or more weeks. So if they ever allow enrollment of Westin and Sheraton weeks, it is possible that Marriott owners could enroll them for no additional cost.



Hmm, I wonder what Marriott would do for those who have both Vistana(Westin & Sheraton) and Hyatt weeks ??
Hopefully by the time they got around to potentially integrating Hyatt, treat the Hyatt week the same as Marriott + Westin, Sheraton weeks.


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## DannyTS (Sep 7, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Correct, $1995 for all the weeks, not for each week.


If they get the price right, I think that they will be successful


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## jeff01 (Sep 8, 2018)

During the last Marriott enrolment period were you required to enroll all units our could you choose to leave off a resale and still pay the lower fee or was it an all or nothing scenario.   In my case I have several VSE units, one of which is a 2 Bed EOY Gold Plus WKV week purchased resale off eBay.  Since WKV is mandatory I typically either use the StarOptions elsewhere or split it into two 1 Bedrooms & deposit to Interval.  I’ve been thinking about getting rid of it for a while but always seem to find a use for it so haven’t really pursued it too much.

If Marriott makes a similar offer to VSE owners I’d probably be willing to pay the $695 to enroll the other weeks but not sure it’s worth spending $2,000+ to have this WKV one included.


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## GrayFal (Sep 8, 2018)

Why am I not getting any of these emails???
I am a 5 week Vistana/3 week Marriott owner.  

Hellllllloooooo.  I am here!


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## DannyTS (Sep 8, 2018)

GrayFal said:


> Why am I not getting any of these emails???
> I am a 5 week Vistana/3 week Marriott owner.
> 
> Hellllllloooooo.  I am here!


We are just speculating, there is no official communication from Marriott/Vistana


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## dioxide45 (Sep 8, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> We are just speculating, there is no official communication from Marriott/Vistana


I think @GrayFal is referring to the email from post #1.


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## GrayFal (Sep 8, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> I think @GrayFal is referring to the email from post #1.


Yup.....


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## controller1 (Sep 8, 2018)

GrayFal said:


> Yup.....



Go to your Dashboard under Communications and ensure you have checked to receive emails. That's the only thing I can think of.


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## GrayFal (Sep 8, 2018)

controller1 said:


> Go to your Dashboard under Communications and ensure you have checked to receive emails. That's the only thing I can think of.


Thank you, I did check for my account and my husbands as well.


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## HeidingOut (Sep 14, 2018)

Not that I understand these things too well, am I missing something? But, why would I pay to have my resale Lagunamar week go into the Marriott system when I'm happy using the two weeks I get with our 2 bedroom at the Westin. And we've traded it as well on II...just stayed at the Marriott Aruba Surf for two weeks, stayed at Harborside for one last November? Please let me know what detail I'm missing that would give me an incentive to do that?


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## DannyTS (Sep 14, 2018)

HeidingOut said:


> Not that I understand these things too well, am I missing something? But, why would I pay to have my resale Lagunamar week go into the Marriott system when I'm happy using the two weeks I get with our 2 bedroom at the Westin. And we've traded it as well on II...just stayed at the Marriott Aruba Surf for two weeks, stayed at Harborside for one last November? Please let me know what detail I'm missing that would give me an incentive to do that?


I think that you are proving some people's point that Marriott will have to come with a good offer to entice owners like you. You are not missing anything IMO


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## Tucsonadventurer (Sep 14, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I think that you are proving some people's point that Marriott will have to come with a good offer to entice owners like you. You are not missing anything IMO


You could still trade in II but supposedly (according to sales) resale folks wont be able to trade Internally even within Vistana. They did not know we were resale and were trying to reassure us but when I asked about resale was told we would need to spend 30,000 to buy Marriott points and qualify our resale week. May not be true but it is somewhat concerning. They did it to Marriott owners so it is feasible


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 14, 2018)

Tucsonadventurer said:


> You could still trade in II but supposedly (according to sales) resale folks wont be able to trade Internally even within Vistana. They did not know we were resale and were trying to reassure us but when I asked about resale was told we would need to spend 30,000 to buy Marriott points and qualify our resale week. May not be true but it is somewhat concerning. They did it to Marriott owners so it is feasible



I would assume that if you are VSN mandatory SO resort they would have to continue to honor those trades with Westin/Sheraton.

If gaining access to Marriott/DC entails giving up mandatory SO, I would not do because it would affect the value when time to sell. I do not believe that DC enrollment extends to resale buyers.


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## DannyTS (Sep 14, 2018)

Tucsonadventurer said:


> You could still trade in II but supposedly (according to sales) resale folks wont be able to trade Internally even within Vistana. They did not know we were resale and were trying to reassure us but when I asked about resale was told we would need to spend 30,000 to buy Marriott points and qualify our resale week. May not be true but it is somewhat concerning. They did it to Marriott owners so it is feasible


I would disregard anything that sales people say at this moment:
1) what they told you seems rather wishful thinking, of course it would benefit his/her sales
2) it plainly disregards all the legal basis for Vistana mandatory resorts. They would open themselves up for legal and PR trouble If this was remotely possible, Vistana would have done it a long time ago. 
3) it also disregards what the Marriott DP  owners want, to have access to as many resorts as possible. That can only come with integration

I was recently on  the phone with a Vistana sales rep (days before the merger). I told him  that I would consider his proposal  if he confirmed in writing certain things he was suggesting would happen after the merger. Of course the discussion did not go very far from that moment. Talk is cheap.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 14, 2018)

HeidingOut said:


> Not that I understand these things too well, am I missing something? But, why would I pay to have my resale Lagunamar week go into the Marriott system when I'm happy using the two weeks I get with our 2 bedroom at the Westin. And we've traded it as well on II...just stayed at the Marriott Aruba Surf for two weeks, stayed at Harborside for one last November? Please let me know what detail I'm missing that would give me an incentive to do that?


YOu have found what many Marriott owners found. If you use your weeks at your home resort, there is little benefit to enrolling weeks in the DC program. There are probably at least still 50% of the eligible Marriott weeks not enrolled in the program. If they open enrollment up to Vistana weeks, they would probably price it in a similar manner and expect the same enrollment rates.


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## pacman777 (Sep 14, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> YOu have found what many Marriott owners found. If you use your weeks at your home resort, there is little benefit to enrolling weeks in the DC program. There are probably at least still 50% of the eligible Marriott weeks not enrolled in the program. If they open enrollment up to Vistana weeks, they would probably price it in a similar manner and expect the same enrollment rates.



Agree with this completely. And Marriott even allowed resale owners to enroll their weeks that were owned up to a certain date in 2010 when the announcement was made. I would think they would do something similar as it makes common business sense


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## dioxide45 (Sep 14, 2018)

The biggest question lies with how they would do any type of enrollment and how would mandatory weeks be impacted. Marriott certainly doesn't want an easy resale entry in to their DC program. I would think they would keep the previous VSN/StarOption program and simply allow you to also enroll your week in DC. If you enroll you can still either use your home resort, book with StarOptions, exchange through II or elect DC points. This way they can still freeze resale mandatory weeks out of the DC program since they aren't replacing the VSN system.


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## HeidingOut (Sep 14, 2018)

Tucsonadventurer said:


> You could still trade in II but supposedly (according to sales) resale folks wont be able to trade Internally even within Vistana. They did not know we were resale and were trying to reassure us but when I asked about resale was told we would need to spend 30,000 to buy Marriott points and qualify our resale week. May not be true but it is somewhat concerning. They did it to Marriott owners so it is feasible



I can't trade within Vistana internally now (unless again I'm missing something). Lagunamar is not mandatory so I don't get SO's. Still I'm happy with our maintenance fees and what we are getting for them. I can't imagine paying $2500.00 to join Marriott DC. If I wanted access to Marriott, I would probably buy Marriott (which seems to have really high maintenance fees in comparison to Lagunamar. Don't get me wrong, Aruba Surf was lovely. But, if Marriott was hoping to get Lagunamar weeks into their portfolio they probably will need to offer something better than 'pay us $2500' for you to deposit your week at least from my standpoint.


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## DannyTS (Sep 14, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> The biggest question lies with how they would do any type of enrollment and how would mandatory weeks be impacted. Marriott certainly doesn't want an easy resale entry in to their DC program. I would think they would keep the previous VSN/StarOption program and simply allow you to also enroll your week in DC. If you enroll you can still either use your home resort, book with StarOptions, exchange through II or elect DC points. This way they can still freeze resale mandatory weeks out of the DC program since they aren't replacing the VSN system.


it is very possible that Marriott may decide to keep multiple layers of reservation. Large companies value simplicity though  so i would not be surprised to see a full integration of all programs. It is not clear how much they dislike the mandatory Vistana deeds but for sure they dislike more the confusion  and the costs associated with running multiple programs at the same time.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 14, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> it is very possible that Marriott may decide to keep multiple layers of reservation. Large companies value simplicity though  so i would not be surprised to see a full integration of all programs. It is not clear how much they dislike the mandatory Vistana deeds but for sure they dislike more the confusion  and the costs associated with running multiple programs at the same time.


While they may like simplicity, I think they also prefer to not take benefits away that people currently enjoy and utilize. It also makes for an easier implementation and less chance of legal challenge down the road. If people don't lose anything and only gain a certain benefit they are willing to pay for, they really can't complain about it.


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## DannyTS (Sep 14, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> While they may like simplicity, I think they also prefer to not take benefits away that people currently enjoy and utilize. It also makes for an easier implementation and less chance of legal challenge down the road. If people don't lose anything and only gain a certain benefit they are willing to pay for, they really can't complain about it.


i agree with you, i just do no see anyone challenging them if they just convert the number of Staroptions to a number of DP and give access to all the network. I know i would not and i do not see why anyone would


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## VacationPro (Sep 14, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> While they may like simplicity, I think they also prefer to not take benefits away that people currently enjoy and utilize. It also makes for an easier implementation and less chance of legal challenge down the road. If people don't lose anything and only gain a certain benefit they are willing to pay for, they really can't complain about it.



I agree.  My bet is that Marriott keeps the VSN active, and provides (at some cost) an optional Marriott Destination enrollment with destination points. Staroptions would be used for reservations within the SVN, Destination points for reservations to Marriott properties (and perhaps Hyatt). Mandatory weeks purchased after the cut-off will not have the Marriott point option.  I suspect all weeks that are currently enrolled in the VSN would be provided that option.  While non-SVN Voluntary weeks might be allowed to enroll in VSN (and Marriott Destinations), I think the most likely option would be to directly enroll in the Marriott Destination Club.  

I would also suspect that for Interval International trades, the preference would be extended so that all Vistana and Marriott weeks receive the same preference--i.e. a Vistana week would receive both Marriott and Vistana preference.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 14, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> i agree with you, i just do no see anyone challenging them if they just convert the number of Staroptions to a number of DP and give access to all the network. I know i would not and i do not see why anyone would



I wouldn't mind either unless this means that mandatory capability is forfeited for resale buyers of our unit as a condition upon enrolling. That would be a showstopper.


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## lizap (Sep 15, 2018)

All this speculation is fun..


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## andysnovel (Sep 21, 2018)

Here is Simple..........all star options are converted over to MVC points and new points tables are established for Vistana Properties. For those owners that bought directly from Starwood/Vistana they are automatically enrolled. For those resale mandatory owners there is a one time points conversion fee, just like they do with Marriott Resales. If you own a non star options resale vistana resale in a desirable location, they may target you with special offers to convert over to MVC clubs. By law, when a corporation takes over another corporation, they take over the previous contracts and obligations. Do we win a prize if we guess right here???  lmao


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## btoby61 (Sep 21, 2018)

lizap said:


> All this speculation is fun..


Since it is fun....Has anybody thought about how the timeshare "elite" programs would fall together? They seem pretty far apart.


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## controller1 (Sep 21, 2018)

btoby61 said:


> Since it is fun....Has anybody thought about how the timeshare "elite" programs would fall together? They seem pretty far apart.



They are very far apart. There are opportunities for MVC owners to achieve Marriott Platinum Premier solely through timeshare ownership while Vistana owners only have the opportunity to achieve Marriott Platinum solely through timeshare ownership.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 21, 2018)

andysnovel said:


> Here is Simple..........all star options are converted over to MVC points and new points tables are established for Vistana Properties. For those owners that bought directly from Starwood/Vistana they are automatically enrolled. For those resale mandatory owners there is a one time points conversion fee, just like they do with Marriott Resales. If you own a non star options resale vistana resale in a desirable location, they may target you with special offers to convert over to MVC clubs. By law, when a corporation takes over another corporation, they take over the previous contracts and obligations. Do we win a prize if we guess right here???  lmao


No prizes. Of course anything is possible, but nothing will be free. Regardless of how you acquired your ownership. It might be cheaper if you bought direct but any enrollment will come with a fee. I also don't see them simply converting on an SO to DC conversion. They won't give you a certain number of DC points based on the number of SOs your week is worth, they would assign your specific week a DC point value. SO am 81K week in Orlando probably would get fewer DC points than an 81K week in Hawaii. For FlexOptions and HomeOptions, those will likely convert on an SO to DC basis.

I also don't see them eliminating VSN. They generally don't want to take away anyone's existing rights. Also, many people would have been sold a week on Friday based on SOs but come Monday their whole system is changed and how they use it is now different in DC? That probably won't fly and would probably get legal challenge. They will probably let people use their weeks, their SOs or convert their weeks to DC points. This being if they do anything at all.


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## DannyTS (Sep 21, 2018)

I am not sure i understand the argument that if they convert SO to DP following a fixed ratio they would take away some of our rights


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## dioxide45 (Sep 21, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I am not sure i understand the argument that if they convert SO to DP following a fixed ratio they would take away some of our rights


SOs don't work the same as DC points. WIth DC points, you have skim. Meaning you get 2000 points but to book a week back in to the same resort would cost you 2200. Inherently they give you fewer points than it costs to book other like properties and weeks. SOs don't work the same way. I get 81,000 SOs and gan go to another resort or back in to another week at my same resort without losing anything. There is no skim in the VSN. If they forced DC upon me, I would not be happy. If they allow me to enroll and continue to use VSN, I would be happy.


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## DannyTS (Sep 21, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> SOs don't work the same as DC points. WIth DC points, you have skim. Meaning you get 2000 points but to book a week back in to the same resort would cost you 2200. Inherently they give you fewer points than it costs to book other like properties and weeks. SOs don't work the same way. I get 81,000 SOs and gan go to another resort or back in to another week at my same resort without losing anything. There is no skim in the VSN. If they forced DC upon me, I would not be happy. If they allow me to enroll and continue to use VSN, I would be happy.


this is a very compelling argument.


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## DannyTS (Sep 21, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> SOs don't work the same as DC points. WIth DC points, you have skim. Meaning you get 2000 points but to book a week back in to the same resort would cost you 2200. Inherently they give you fewer points than it costs to book other like properties and weeks. SOs don't work the same way. I get 81,000 SOs and gan go to another resort or back in to another week at my same resort without losing anything. There is no skim in the VSN. If they forced DC upon me, I would not be happy. If they allow me to enroll and continue to use VSN, I would be happy.


If i may add one more comment to your point and thank you for clarifying that to me. There is a lot of overlap between Vistana and Marriott. As a Vistana mandatory owner you do not need MVC to go to Hawaii, Colorado, Arizona, Florida and so on. I can count on the fingers the places where i would like to go to and i can get there just through Marriott however, they all seem to be available in Interval almost all the time (St Kits, Aruba etc) So what exactly do i need the DP for? Nice to have but not a "necessity" as far as I am concerned.


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## dansimms (Sep 22, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> If i may add one more comment to your point and thank you for clarifying that to me. There is a lot of overlap between Vistana and Marriott. As a Vistana mandatory owner you do not need MVC to go to Hawaii, Colorado, Arizona, Florida and so on. I can count on the fingers the places where i would like to go to and i can get there just through Marriott however, they all seem to be available in Interval almost all the time (St Kits, Aruba etc) So what exactly do i need the DP for? Nice to have but not a "necessity" as far as I am concerned.


Skim applies to DPs you exercise in a given use year, when you use those points to stay at another resort in the program. If you purchase Destination Points there is no skim, but they are expensive and carry a higher maintenance fee.


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## DannyTS (Sep 22, 2018)

dansimms said:


> Skim applies to DPs you exercise in a given use year, when you use those points to stay at another resort in the program. If you purchase Destination Points there is no skim, but they are expensi





dansimms said:


> Skim applies to DPs you exercise in a given use year, when you use those points to stay at another resort in the program. If you purchase Destination Points there is no skim, but they are expensive and carry a higher maintenance fee.


I see what you are saying but it seems that it would apply to Staroption owners since we did not buy DP. If they do a simple conversion though with no skim that would be fine although i do not know how they would reconcile that with the Marriott owners. Again, i do not think that I would agree with any skim on our Vistana resorts let alone paying anything for that.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 22, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I see what you are saying but it seems that it would apply to Staroption owners since we did not buy DP. If they do a simple conversion though with no skim that would be fine although i do not know how they would reconcile that with the Marriott owners. Again, i do not think that I would agree with any skim on our Vistana resorts let alone paying anything for that.


Another big issue is how the DC chart is setup vs the SO chart. I lightly touched on this earlier, but currently a Lagunamar 2BR platinum week is worth the same as a Hawaii 2BR week. While Marriott doesn't have any Mexican resorts to compare, I simply don't see them allotting close to the same number of points for Lagunamar as they do for any property in Hawaii. If so, there would be no way that someone gets the same amount of points for their Lagunamar week to get them back in to Hawaii like they can today (with no loss of points). So in DC someone using a WLR week would no longer get enough points to go to Hawaii. Perhaps if they did a straight SO to DC conversion they would, but I doubt they would do that because in reality, is Mexico as valuable as Hawaii? Vistana didn't even think it was and they only upped the number of StarOptions for the Platinum season as WLR after sales were poor starting out.


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## DannyTS (Sep 22, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Another big issue is how the DC chart is setup vs the SO chart. I lightly touched on this earlier, but currently a Lagunamar 2BR platinum week is worth the same as a Hawaii 2BR week. While Marriott doesn't have any Mexican resorts to compare, I simply don't see them allotting close to the same number of points for Lagunamar as they do for any property in Hawaii. If so, there would be no way that someone gets the same amount of points for their Lagunamar week to get them back in to Hawaii like they can today (with no loss of points). So in DC someone using a WLR week would no longer get enough points to go to Hawaii. Perhaps if they did a straight SO to DC conversion they would, but I doubt they would do that because in reality, is Mexico as valuable as Hawaii? Vistana didn't even think it was and they only upped the number of StarOptions for the Platinum season as WLR after sales were poor starting out.



I hear what you are saying but Cancun is a great complement to the MVC resorts and one of the few places where there is no overlap. While Hawaii may sound great, MVC already has 5 great resorts there and there is also a Hyatt; the Vistana properties, while welcome in the club, do not add that much more value IMO in that area.  It is not surprising that the MVC CEO mentioned Mexico during the conference call and not the 4 additional  Hawaiian resorts!

I also want to point out that while Hawaii may be a great place to go to, it is not practical at all for those who live on the East cost, especially those travelling with kids. I would not go there more often than every few years while we go Mexico and to the Caribbean typically more than once a year.

In any case you are right, any deal should not take anything away from what we already have


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## youppi (Sep 22, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Another big issue is how the DC chart is setup vs the SO chart. I lightly touched on this earlier, but currently a Lagunamar 2BR platinum week is worth the same as a Hawaii 2BR week. While Marriott doesn't have any Mexican resorts to compare, I simply don't see them allotting close to the same number of points for Lagunamar as they do for any property in Hawaii. If so, there would be no way that someone gets the same amount of points for their Lagunamar week to get them back in to Hawaii like they can today (with no loss of points). So in DC someone using a WLR week would no longer get enough points to go to Hawaii. Perhaps if they did a straight SO to DC conversion they would, but I doubt they would do that because in reality, is Mexico as valuable as Hawaii? Vistana didn't even think it was and they only upped the number of StarOptions for the Platinum season as WLR after sales were poor starting out.


You could do the comparison using Arizona or Orlando vs Hawaii as example where both systems have resorts.
I already done the exercise in the past for 2 bdrm Arizona vs 2 bdrm Hawaii where a peak season in Arizona in the MVC DC system can't get a low season in Hawaii but in the VSE SO system, it can.
Example:
MMO Lahaina (Maui) is 4,700 to 10,425 DC pts for a 2 bdrm
MVC (Phoenix) is 1,725 to 4,175 DC pts for a 2 bdrm
where
WKORV (Maui) is 148,100 to 176,700 SO for a 2 bdrm
SDO or WKV (Scottdales) is 56,300 to 148,100 SO for a 2bdrm


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## Ken555 (Sep 22, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Another big issue is how the DC chart is setup vs the SO chart. I lightly touched on this earlier, but currently a Lagunamar 2BR platinum week is worth the same as a Hawaii 2BR week. While Marriott doesn't have any Mexican resorts to compare, I simply don't see them allotting close to the same number of points for Lagunamar as they do for any property in Hawaii. If so, there would be no way that someone gets the same amount of points for their Lagunamar week to get them back in to Hawaii like they can today (with no loss of points). So in DC someone using a WLR week would no longer get enough points to go to Hawaii. Perhaps if they did a straight SO to DC conversion they would, but I doubt they would do that because in reality, is Mexico as valuable as Hawaii? Vistana didn't even think it was and they only upped the number of StarOptions for the Platinum season as WLR after sales were poor starting out.



As a reminder when WLR was first on sale it did not have the same SOs as the Hawaii resorts. IIRC a 2-bed was something like 94k SOs. Long story short they couldn't sell them. So they increased the SO value and the rest is history. 

I doubt Marriott would make such a devaluation.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45 (Sep 22, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> As a reminder when WLR was first on sale it did not have the same SOs as the Hawaii resorts. IIRC a 2-bed was something like 94k SOs. Long story short they couldn't sell them. So they increased the SO value and the rest is history.
> 
> I doubt Marriott would make such a devaluation.
> 
> ...


Yes, I mentioned something to the effect in the last sentence of my post. I didn't know the number of SOs the platinum weeks originally provided.


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## pacman777 (Sep 23, 2018)

I think value of location is all in the eyes of the beholder. I’ve been to Maui, Kauai, Oahu multiple times for vacation. Sure it’s a beautiful place and I love that it’s part of the US but I actually prefer going to Cancun and staying at Lagunamar as none of those Hawaii resorts are as nice with such an awesome pool and close to great restaurants. I also love the fact that everything is relatively cheaper compared to Hawaii (eg lodging, meals, car rentals, activities). If the water is a bit rough to swim in at the resort then take the ferry to Isla mujeres and rent a golf cart for the day to drive around the island and spend part of the day on the north side with some great calm clear water with decent snorkeling. I also love the various eco parks around the area like Xel-Ha. Same time zone as Texas and no issues with jet lag like Hawaii with a 6 hour difference.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 23, 2018)

Interesting discussion. I always learn a lot from fellow Tuggers 

If one enrolls their week in DC points are they required to pay an additional annual MF? Or is that DC trust points only? As we know, SO's don't require additional MF.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 23, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Interesting discussion. I always learn a lot from fellow Tuggers
> 
> If one enrolls their week in DC points are they required to pay an additional annual MF? Or is that DC trust points only? As we know, SO's don't require additional MF.


Marriott owners that enroll their weeks still pay the MF on the underlying week. Nothing changes. They just have the opportunity to convert their week to DC points.


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## tschwa2 (Sep 23, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Interesting discussion. I always learn a lot from fellow Tuggers
> 
> If one enrolls their week in DC points are they required to pay an additional annual MF? Or is that DC trust points only? As we know, SO's don't require additional MF.


while SO's don t require additional Of you do need to pay an SVN fee.  Enrolled weeks pay an annual fee.  I think there are 2 levels based on the number of points.  The annual fees are higher with Marriot.   With Marriott you don't pay for guest certs for DC reservations.  Marriott to Marriott exchange s  when exchanging weeks and retrades are free in II. Higher Hotel status is easier to achieve with DC points including points from enrolled weeks.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> As a reminder when WLR was first on sale it did not have the same SOs as the Hawaii resorts. IIRC a 2-bed was something like 94k SOs. Long story short they couldn't sell them. So they increased the SO value and the rest is history.
> 
> I doubt Marriott would make such a devaluation.
> 
> ...



I have heard this theory before, told apparently around 2012-2013 by a salesperson at another Westin resort, that Lagunamar had to increase the number of Staroptions because of poor sales performance.

The resort opened in 2008 according to media articles

https://www.hotelexecutive.com/news...-open-westin-lagunamar-ocean-resort-in-cancun


According to the developer prices and SO chart in January 2008 (found on TUG), the SO number for a 2 bedroom platinum was exactly the same as today: 148,100

The story does not seem to be accurate.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Westin Lagumar is always available on II for Getaways and exchanges. I think it would be foolish for Marriott to give the same DC points for a Mexican resort as a Hawaii resort. There is no hurricane season or low season in Hawaii but the high season in Cancun only lasts for 4 months (Christmas to Easter). I would never book Cancun (or anywhere in the Caribbean) in advance during hurricane season (Aug-Oct), except as a last minute thing if I knew there was not a hurricane on the horizon. I suspect everyone but a few Westin Lagumar owners would agree and understand if Marriott offers fewer points for Mexico vs Hawaii. Also keep in mind that it is to everyone’s advantage if Marriott values Westin Lagumar at a lower point allocation because then it is cheaper for us to use DPs to book there.

I have not been to Westin Lagumar but in looking at the website photos, the interior design looks a bit dated to me. I am surprised it opened in 2008. I thought it was an 80s or 90s resort by the look of the rooms there.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

I do not understand why the skim is such a big issue. MVC Week owners can use their week in their season or DPs, whatever is to their advantage.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Westin Lagumar is always available on II for Getaways and exchanges. I think it would be foolish for Marriott to give the same DC points for a Mexican resort as a Hawaii resort. There is no hurricane season or low season in Hawaii but the high season in Cancun only lasts for 4 months (Christmas to Easter). I would never book Cancun (or anywhere in the Caribbean) in advance during hurricane season (Aug-Oct), except as a last minute thing if I knew there was not a hurricane on the horizon. I suspect everyone but a few Westin Lagumar owners would agree and understand if Marriott offers fewer points for Mexico vs Hawaii. Also keep in mind that it is to everyone’s advantage if Marriott values Westin Lagumar at a lower point allocation because then it is cheaper for us to use DPs to book there.



Hurricanes are rare in Cancun, i think they only hit  twice in the last 15-20 years without major damages. Lagunamar is a big resort and all condos  are 2 bedrooms lockoff. You should not read much into the fact that you have few (mostly) studios on Interval, and mostly shoulder season.

The idea that all seasons are the same in Hawaii is disproved by points required in most TS, including Marriott. Westin is apart from this point of view, one can argue that the resort owners  get more points anyway in aggregate because all weeks are platinum in Hawaii. You may also have to have in mind that virtually all Lagunamar condos have gorgeous ocean views, not exactly the same as a "wonderful" parking view at other resorts. That in itself brings a lot of value and means much less potential frustration for the management, owners and renters alike.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Westin Lagumar is always available on II for Getaways and exchanges. I think it would be foolish for Marriott to give the same DC points for a Mexican resort as a Hawaii resort. There is no hurricane season or low season in Hawaii but the high season in Cancun only lasts for 4 months (Christmas to Easter). I would never book Cancun (or anywhere in the Caribbean) in advance during hurricane season (Aug-Oct), except as a last minute thing if I knew there was not a hurricane on the horizon. I suspect everyone but a few Westin Lagumar owners would agree and understand if Marriott offers fewer points for Mexico vs Hawaii. Also keep in mind that it is to everyone’s advantage if Marriott values Westin Lagumar at a lower point allocation because then it is cheaper for us to use DPs to book there.
> 
> I have not been to Westin Lagumar but in looking at the website photos, the interior design looks a bit dated to me. I am surprised it opened in 2008. I thought it was an 80s or 90s resort by the look of the rooms there.


It is an issue because when you deposit you lose in average 7% of the value if i understand correctly.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Hmmm...you could argue that hurricanes are rare in any single city. But it is not rare in the Caribbean. Cancun is in the Caribbean’s hurricane belt so in any single year, of course it won’t get hit. I grew up in the hurricane capital of the USA and only one or two major hurricanes have hit my home town in the past 50 years. It is still in my general rule that I do not book major Caribbean vacations in advance from Aug-Oct.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> It is an issue because when you deposit you lose in average 7% of the value if i understand correctly.



My point is that you do not need to deposit your DPs if you want to use them in your season at your home resort. So you can avoid the skim entirely.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> Hurricanes are rare in Cancun, i think they only hit  twice in the last 15-20 years without major damages. Lagunamar is a big resort and all condos  are 2 bedrooms lockoff. You should not read much into the fact that you have few (mostly) studios on Interval, and mostly shoulder season.
> 
> The idea that all seasons are the same in Hawaii is disproved by points required in most TS, including Marriott. Westin is apart from this point of view, one can argue that the resort owners  get more points anyway in aggregate because all weeks are platinum in Hawaii. You may also have to have in mind that virtually all Lagunamar condos have gorgeous ocean views, not exactly the same as a "wonderful" parking view at other resorts. That in itself brings a lot of value and means much less potential frustration for the management, owners and renters alike. View attachment 8307



It is nice that MVC offers some lower point weeks in Hawaii. It is not a significant savings for Hawaii but the option is nice because then it costs me less to book Hawaii esp if I can use the 30% discount at 60 days. I wish both Westin and MVC had more Caribbean options. Even though I am on the West coast, I would love to go to the Caribbean annually in addition to an annual Hawaii trip. I bought into Vistana primarily for Maui, St John and the Bahamas. However, it is very hard to get St John at the 8 month mark using SOs. So if it were possible to book St John more easily using DPs, that would interest me. One thing I like about DPs vs SOs is you can book the view category any time with DPs. With SOs, the view is floating at 8 months. It is nice that all units have ocean view at Westin Lagumar so booking with SOs would not be an issue for that resort.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I have not been to Westin Lagumar but in looking at the website photos, the interior design looks a bit dated to me.



The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, i believe that the condos are very nice and well maintained. And again, all the views are amazing, the resort has so many things that others resorts would just hope for. Proximity to amazing restaurants and an upscale mall, some of the best pools you can go to, relatively low prices, no mosquitoes, you do not have to wrestle to get a pool or a beach seat (because the pool area is so big), I can go on and on.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, i believe that the condos are very nice and well maintained. And again, all the views are amazing, the resort has so many things that others resorts would just hope for. Proximity to amazing restaurants and an upscale mall, some of the best pools you can go to, relatively low prices, no mosquitoes, you do not have to wrestle to get a pool or a beach seat (because the pool area is so big), I can go on and on.
> 
> View attachment 8308



That is a nice photo. I think it is the kitchens and bathrooms that look very dated to me. Do all the units have that ocean view?


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> It is nice that MVC offers some lower point weeks in Hawaii. It is not a significant savings for Hawaii but the option is nice because then it costs me less to book Hawaii esp if I can use the 30% discount at 60 days. I wish both Westin and MVC had more Caribbean options. Even though I am on the West coast, I would love to go to the Caribbean annually in addition to an annual Hawaii trip. I bought into Vistana primarily for Maui, St John and the Bahamas. However, it is very hard to get St John at the 8 month mark using SOs. So if it were possible to book St John more easily using DPs, that would interest me.


St John is becoming more available, i have seen several condos at 8 months out when i looked (not too often though). Have in mind though the resort just reopened so the owners want to go back there after they used the SO for few years to go to other resorts so less availability is gonna be normal for a while. I think that not all condos are back either yet.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> That is a nice photo. I think it is the kitchens that look very dated to me. Do all the units have that ocean view?


that view is actually oceanfront. This view is from the furthest building to the beach (where the reception is). There are no condos on the Lagoon side. Does it still beat a parking view?
Somebody said that Lagunamar should have won an architectural reward.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I have heard this theory before, told apparently around 2012-2013 by a salesperson at another Westin resort, that Lagunamar had to increase the number of Staroptions because of poor sales performance.
> 
> The resort opened in 2008 according to media articles
> 
> ...



ROFL

Danny,

I sat through an owners update at WMH when Lagunamar had just started pre-sales and personally heard the original SOs. It was a large part of my complaints about the price for the resort (IIRC, it was about $35k for the 2-bed with the most SOs). I'm certain there are posts on TUG at the time about it.

It's great that you try to confirm facts, but some we know with certainty since we lived through it.

Have a great Sunday!

Ken

ETA: The SO chart you posted is from January 2008, which is a long time after the presales had started. I just checked my notes and I was at WMH in Oct 2006 for that owner's update. FYI, I also visited WLR in Nov 2008, and haven't really seen any reason to return.

And an even later edit: It's amazing what a good backup and storage system will have. This is an image of page 2 of the 2-page SVN chart at approx Jan 24, 2006 (that's the file date). This shows the WLR highest SOs at 95,700. Enjoy.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> That is a nice photo. I think it is the kitchens and bathrooms that look very dated to me. Do all the units have that ocean view?



the kitchens also look nice to me. Again, it is subjective. One thing i know for a fact, condos date at all resorts but Lagunamar will always have a great location, wonderful pools and stunning beach.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> St John is becoming more available, i have seen several condos at 8 months out when i looked (not too often though). Have in mind though the resort just reopened so the owners want to go back there after they used the SO for few years to go to other resorts so less availability is gonna be normal for a while. I think that not all condos are back either yet.



St John is definitely a hard one to get, esp in the unit size one wants. Harborside is also another one that is hard to get in the premium 1 br units unless you are online very early in the 8 month booking window. I lucked out and used SOs for the 1 bedroom premium unit in May. I may book St John for June, when SOs become available in Oct since we already have one week planned for St Thomas in June. I have a tentative studio reserved at another report in St John but I really want a bigger unit. I would need to borrow SOs in order to book St John. I wonder how hard borrowing will be through Vistana. I do not think borrowing SOs in an option on the Vistana website. I think you can only borrow SOs if you call and pay the future MF in advance. I need to look into that so I will be ready to book for June, assuming I can get a week in a 1 or 2 bedroom using SOs at the 8 month window.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> the kitchens also look nice to me. Again, it is subjective. One thing i know for a fact, condos date at all resorts but Lagunamar will always have a great location, wonderful pools and stunning beach.
> 
> View attachment 8311



These units look nicer than the photos I have seen. Did they recently renovate them? Before, the cabinets were older style and the cabinets were still tile. I do not like the green tile in the kitchen and the blue tile in the bathroom. I am glad the cabinets and counter tops have been updated. It is a big improvement! The view is very nice, no arguing there!


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> ROFL
> 
> Danny,
> 
> ...


 Pre-sale seems to be very different that what was said before. I also think that a lot of the Laguanamar qualities only reveled once the resort was actually completed. What you are saying can have also been distorted by the sales people, we just do not know. It is also possible that they realized the number of SO was too low for such a beautiful resort. We do not know for sure what the real reasons were, we were not in the room when (and if) they made that decision.

As a mandatory resort owner i would love to use less SOs for Lagunamar. Unfortunately it is not the case.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> These units look nicer than the photos I have seen. Did they recently renovate them? Before, the cabinets were older style and the cabinets were still tile. I do not like the green tile in the kitchen and the blue tile in the bathroom. I am glad the cabinets and counter tops have been updated. It is a big improvement! The view is very nice, no arguing there!


I think that you may mix some of the photos with the other Westin in Cancun. I believe that the kitchens always had granite counter tops. 

This is a kitchen at Westin Ka'anapali , picture i  found on tripadvisor. Do you find this better? In any case, it is subjective


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> Pre-sale seems to be very different that what was said before. I also think that a lot of the Laguanamar qualities only reveled once the resort was actually completed. What you are saying can have also been distorted by the sales people, we just do not know. It is also possible that they realized the number of SO was to low for such a beautiful resort. We do not know for sure what the real reasons were, we were not in the room when (and if) they made that decision.
> 
> As a mandatory resort owner i would love to use less SOs for Lagunamar. Unfortunately it is not the case.



Actually, we do know. We sat through enough meetings at the time and there was enough anecdotal comments that it was clear they weren't selling at the lowered SOs. End of story. Also, see the post above as I edited it to include the staroption chart which shows the original amounts. That should convince even you...


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> My point is that you do not need to deposit your DPs if you want to use them in your season at your home resort. So you can avoid the skim entirely.



What about if you want to lock off your unit and book a second consecutive week? I believe MVC charges a lock-off fee and Vistana does not.. Do they also skim in this situation?

IMO charging a lock off fee for what you already own is wrong. So far I am not liking MVCs approach to owners. Feels like they are constantly tightening the vice around their owners.

HGVC (which we also own) seems to treat their owners much better. Depending on what MVC devise for Vistana, we may do more trading with HGVC now that they are adding new properties incl. Japan and Carribean and just use our Westin Maui OF.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Going back to the original theme of this thread, as both a Vistana and MVC points owner, I think there are pros and cons to both systems. If the enrollment fee were in a reasonable price range to enroll my Vistana week in a new and improved MVC, I would do it because I would love the flexibility of booking at 100+ resorts in any view category. However, I also hope MVC will keep SOs as an alternative too.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> Pre-sale seems to be very different that what was said before. I also think that a lot of the Laguanamar qualities only reveled once the resort was actually completed. What you are saying can have also been distorted by the sales people, we just do not know. It is also possible that they realized the number of SO was too low for such a beautiful resort. We do not know for sure what the real reasons were, we were not in the room when (and if) they made that decision.
> 
> As a mandatory resort owner i would love to use less SOs for Lagunamar. Unfortunately it is not the case.



It turns out there were two StarOption charts back then, one PDF for weekly and one for daily. Here's an excerpt from the daily PDF:


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> What about if you want to lock off your unit and book a second consecutive week? I believe MVC charges a lock-off fee and Vistana does not.. Do they also skim in this situation?
> 
> IMO charging lock off fee for what you already own is wrong.



I think we are splitting hairs here since lock off fees are minimal in the big scheme of things and only apply to weeks owners. I own a 2 BR at Ko Olina, where they are all lock off. However my deed does not say I own a lock off. So that is probably why they can charge for a lock off. I technically do not own a lock off. I look at it this way. Vistana and MVC have pros and cons. I would like to have the option of enrolling my Vistana week into MVC and having the best of both worlds. I enrolled my Ko Olina week into MVC at what many people would consider a very high cost but I am glad to have the flexibility as well as it took me to Presidential level where the benefits seemed worth it to me.


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## okwiater (Sep 23, 2018)

Having been to nearly all of the resorts in the Vistana network, I find the Lagunamar units to be some of the nicest,_ especially_ the bathrooms and kitchen.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> ROFL
> 
> Danny,
> 
> ...


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## tschwa2 (Sep 23, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> What about if you want to lock off your unit and book a second consecutive week? I believe MVC charges a lock-off fee and Vistana does not.. Do they also skim in this situation?
> 
> IMO charging lock off fee for what you already own is wrong.


MVC only charges for locking off if you are not enrolled.  The program fee and skin covers lock off fees and cancellation fees (if you book a week and the decide you want a different week - no cancellation fee, unemployed Marriott owners pay the fee.  Also no hk fee like SVN regardless of how many reservations you make with points from a single unit.  With SVN if you make more than one reservation per unit you may have a few after the first reservation when you check in.  You also don't pay to banking.   So all in all the higher program fee and skin pay for a lot of the a la carte fees you pay for with unemployed Marriott weeks and even SVN weeks.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

deleted


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> It turns out there were two StarOption charts back then, one PDF for weekly and one for daily. Here's an excerpt from the daily PDF:


Again, 2006 is something else. A lot of the Lagunamar qualities have to be seen, pre-sales does not count IMO. Also, how can you guarantee what the pre-sales would have been at other resorts if they had initially been allocated a lower number of SOs? What would the sales have been at WKV if a 2 bedroom was 91,000 SOs?


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> It turns out there were two StarOption charts back then, one PDF for weekly and one for daily. Here's an excerpt from the daily PDF:



I am confused. How could there be 2 SO charts? Were they for different SO amounts for the week?


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> Again, 2006 is something else. A lot of the Lagunamar qualities have to be seen, pre-sales does not count IMO. Also, how can you guarantee what the pre-sales would have been at other resorts if they had initially been allocated a lower number of SOs? What would the sales have been at WKV if a 2 bedroom was 91,000 SOs?



I also find bizarre the choice of the initial number of SOs. A spring break week only 15% more SO  than an October week? Certainly a malpractice. No wonder they had to change!


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I think that you may mix some of the photos with the other Westin in Cancun. I believe that the kitchens always had granite counter tops.
> 
> This is a kitchen at Westin Ka'anapali , picture i  found on tripadvisor. Do you find this better? In any case, it is subjective
> 
> View attachment 8312




Yes I like this better bc I hate the tile at WLR. But some people may love the tile. I think Vistana should replace the tile on the walls when they renovate but I assume that is very expensive to change.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

It sounds like this thread has become a WLR thread and should be separated from the original thread.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I think we are splitting hairs here since lock off fees are minimal in the big scheme of things and only apply to weeks owners. I own a 2 BR at Ko Olina, where they are all lock off. However my deed does not say I own a lock off. So that is probably why they can charge for a lock off. I technically do not own a lock off. I look at it this way. Vistana and MVC have pros and cons. I would like to have the option of enrolling my Vistana week into MVC and having the best of both worlds. I enrolled my Ko Olina week into MVC at what many people would consider a very high cost but I am glad to have the flexibility as well as it took me to Presidential level where the benefits seemed worth it to me.





tschwa2 said:


> MVC only charges for locking off if you are not enrolled.  The program fee and skin covers lock off fees and cancellation fees (if you book a week and the decide you want a different week - no cancellation fee, unemployed Marriott owners pay the fee.  Also no hk fee like SVN regardless of how many reservations you make with points from a single unit.  With SVN if you make more than one reservation per unit yowou may have a few after the first reservation when you check in.  You also don't pay to banking.   So all in all the higher program fee and skin pay for a lot of the a la carte fees you pay for with unemployed Marriott weeks and even SVN weeks.



Perhaps they are small but all these fees add up. Especially in light that we pay on average $1000 to $1500 more per year to be in the Vistana / MVC system vs. HGVC or Hyatt. I would expect that such fees would be included given the premium MF Vistana/MVC charges. Makes me wonder if MVC/Vistana are poorly managed or just greedy.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> Again, 2006 is something else. A lot of the Lagunamar qualities have to be seen, pre-sales does not count IMO. Also, how can you guarantee what the pre-sales would have been at other resorts if they had initially been allocated a lower number of SOs? What would the sales have been at WKV if a 2 bedroom was 91,000 SOs?



It was in presales in 2006 and obviously showed up on the SO chart. I was there just weeks after they opened in 2008. I'm not guaranteeing anything...just relaying what I recall from the meetings and the anecdotal comments from others who had similar meetings at the time, along with posts here. Not sure why you think "Lagunamar qualities" would change after they start sales...you'd think they would put every advantage toward making sales, so I'm confused why you think they wouldn't do so. 

Anyway, back to this Marriott mess...


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I am confused. How could there be 2 SO charts? Were they for different SO amounts for the week?



One chart for weekly rates, one for daily. They have since combined them into one.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> One chart for weekly rates, one for daily. They have since combined them into one.



But were the total per week the same at the time they posted the 2 charts?


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> But were the total per week the same at the time they posted the 2 charts?



Yes, of course. Just look at the two images I posted earlier for example.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> that view is actually oceanfront. This view is from the furthest building to the beach (where the reception is). There are no condos on the Lagoon side. Does it still beat a parking view?
> Somebody said that Lagunamar should have won an architectural reward.
> View attachment 8310



Frankly none of the Westins, Marriotts, Hyatts or any others deserve an architectural award. I think the outside of all of these resorts look identical. To me, it is the interior finishes that truly distinguish the hotel quality. I think the green and blue tile is outdated by today’s design standards and does not match the contemporary style of the rest of the villa. However, this is a minor complaint and would not keep me from staying in a unit if I wanted to visit Cancun with SOs or on a Getaway.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 23, 2018)

FWIW...HGVC doesn't have all this enrollment nonsense. Everyone enrolls their unit upon purchase for $599. (This is akin to @DannyTS argument that they should charge everyone a low fee so almost everyone enrolls). That means that all units in the system are in play for trade every year.  None of this trust worry that the units are mud weeks or low value resorts because the higher value units are not in the trust.  Just one club fee with HGVC not SO's and then potentially enrollment fees.  Very simple.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Yes I like this better bc I hate the tile at WLR. But some people may love the tile. I think Vistana should replace the tile on the walls when they renovate but I assume that is very expensive to change.


I think they should leave the tiles the way they are. Read what okwiater said, the kitchens are some of the nicest in the VSN


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I think they should leave the tiles the way they are. Read what okwiater said, the kitchens are some of the nicest in the VSN



Okay if Okwiater says so, then let’s not touch that tile. LOL

I suspect they left the green and blue tile when they converted it from a Sheraton to a Westin in the late 2000s.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Frankly none of the Westins, Marriotts, Hyatts or any others deserve an architectural award. I think the outside of all of these resorts look identical.


Lagunamar was actually shortlisted for an architectural award. 

http://thedesignsoc.com/shortlisted-dpad-hotel-design-award-north-south-america/


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> Lagunamar was actually shortlisted for an architectural award.
> 
> http://thedesignsoc.com/shortlisted-dpad-hotel-design-award-north-south-america/



It looks much better now that it's not pink.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> It was in presales in 2006 and obviously showed up on the SO chart. I was there just weeks after they opened in 2008. I'm not guaranteeing anything...just relaying what I recall from the meetings and the anecdotal comments from others who had similar meetings at the time, along with posts here. Not sure why you think "Lagunamar qualities" would change after they start sales...you'd think they would put every advantage toward making sales, so I'm confused why you think they wouldn't do so.
> 
> Anyway, back to this Marriott mess...


But you agree with me, had they allocated less SO to WKV, people would have complained the same way and they would have sold less, right?


I believe that certain things have to be experienced and not just told about. I am not sure why this does not make sense. It is so nice for example to walk with the kids across to the La Isla mall in the morning and watch the dolphins while having breakfast. You do not have to pay extra for that, you just pay for a regular breakfast. I am sure that  a lot of these qualities due to the location and design were not fully understood at the time.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> Lagunamar was actually shortlisted for an architectural award.
> 
> http://thedesignsoc.com/shortlisted-dpad-hotel-design-award-north-south-america/



Interesting. I guess some people love that tile. Okay now I must visit the WLR. I need to see it first hand before commenting on the tile.

I found this description of the rooms online. Love the way they promote the tiles and variety of styles: “Meanwhile, the villas incorporate more local-themed décor; in each suite, colourful tiles and Mexican accessories combine with modern architectural details and Caribbean-inspired furnishings. A seamless blend of classic, contemporary and tropical styles makes this resort appealing to many kinds of travellers in search of an upscale yet relaxed Cancun holiday.”

They made the clashing styles and green and blue tiles into a positive. To each his own, I guess.

I like the pool and the public areas of WLR look really nice online.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> It looks much better now that it's not pink.



Ha ha


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> But you agree with me, had they allocated less SO to WKV, people would have complained the same way and they would have sold less, right?



It's all about perspective. I get your point, but it all depends on when this was sold. WKV was an earlier resort, and if at the time they didn't have as many others at 148,100 then they might have gotten away with a lower amount. When they sold WLR many of their most important customers, especially multi-week owners, were traveling to the 148k week resorts so had no, or little, interest in a resort with less SOs. The fact that they changed the SO allocation for WLR proves the point, and the exact rationale for the decision is rather irrelevant since once they did make the change sales picked up and many people now enjoy the resort on an equal basis with WKORV and others (of course, it's voluntary so...). 

Anyway, it seems you now believe us that the WLR original SOs being less is not just a "theory" nor "a story". I also sent you a PM with a link to a site that contains original SOs and prices during pre-sales, so hope that helps your understanding of the history of WLR.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Ha ha



In case you don't know, this was the original paint scheme for WLR:


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> It's all about perspective. I get your point, but it all depends on when this was sold. WKV was an earlier resort, and if at the time they didn't have as many others at 148,100 then they might have gotten away with a lower amount. When they sold WLR many of their most important customers, especially multi-week owners, were traveling to the 148k week resorts so had no, or little, interest in a resort with less SOs. The fact that they changed the SO allocation for WLR proves the point, and the exact rationale for the decision is rather irrelevant since once they did make the change sales picked up and many people now enjoy the resort on an equal basis with WKORV and others (of course, it's voluntary so...).
> 
> Anyway, it seems you now believe us that the WLR original SOs being less is not just a "theory" nor "a story". I also sent you a PM with a link to a site that contains original SOs and prices during pre-sales, so hope that helps your understanding of the history of WLR.


I do believe you now  
But it still seems to me they realized their mistake pretty soon and never looked back


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> It's all about perspective. I get your point, but it all depends on when this was sold. WKV was an earlier resort, and if at the time they didn't have as many others at 148,100 then they might have gotten away with a lower amount. When they sold WLR many of their most important customers, especially multi-week owners, were traveling to the 148k week resorts so had no, or little, interest in a resort with less SOs. The fact that they changed the SO allocation for WLR proves the point, and the exact rationale for the decision is rather irrelevant since once they did make the change sales picked up and many people now enjoy the resort on an equal basis with WKORV and others (of course, it's voluntary so...).
> 
> Anyway, it seems you now believe us that the WLR original SOs being less is not just a "theory" nor "a story". I also sent you a PM with a link to a site that contains original SOs and prices during pre-sales, so hope that helps your understanding of the history of WLR.



It is positive to owners and for sales purposes to increase the SOs or DPs a resort gets. But it can also hurt the resort and the developer longer term if inventory goes unbooked because the point allocation was out of whack with the exchange system and comparable options in the region.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> In case you don't know, this was the original paint scheme for WLR:



Not bad in schematic drawings.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> It's all about perspective. I get your point, but it all depends on when this was sold. WKV was an earlier resort, and if at the time they didn't have as many others at 148,100 then they might have gotten away with a lower amount. When they sold WLR many of their most important customers, especially multi-week owners, were traveling to the 148k week resorts so had no, or little, interest in a resort with less SOs. The fact that they changed the SO allocation for WLR proves the point, and the exact rationale for the decision is rather irrelevant since once they did make the change sales picked up and many people now enjoy the resort on an equal basis with WKORV and others (of course, it's voluntary so...).
> 
> Anyway, it seems you now believe us that the WLR original SOs being less is not just a "theory" nor "a story". I also sent you a PM with a link to a site that contains original SOs and prices during pre-sales, so hope that helps your understanding of the history of WLR.


I also think this exchange shows what happens when they start to change the allocation of points for any given resort. In the end the market has validated the current configuration. I think that a fixed DP to SO makes more sense than starting endless discussions about who's kitchen is nicer. Of course we love to speculate!


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I do believe you now
> But it still seems to me they realized their mistake pretty soon and never looked back



I suspect MVC will fix this and never look back either. If MVC makes WLR worth 4800 to 5800 DPs for 1 bedrooms like in Maui, I would not use DP points to stay there. It seems like right now the high point value in Vistana only benefits its owners.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I do believe you now



Finally! 



> But it still seems to me they realized their mistake pretty soon and never looked back



Actually, I'm not sure about that. They have since adjusted a few resorts, such as WSJ and WKORV OF. This is rather pertinent to the overall Marriott discussion in that it's a good reminder that SVN also adjusted the values when it suited them, so another adjustment in the future shouldn't be a surprise to any of us. 

I've come to realize that a complicated system helps the developer/system more than its customers. The more confusion there is, the greater the chance of enabling the sales staff to sell a higher value week. Logically this doesn't work for me, but it seems to be the overall trend for most systems.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I also think this exchange shows what happens when they start to change the allocation of points for any given resort. In the end the market has validated the current configuration.



Yes, and I think having numerous sales meetings with customers who refuse to purchase because of the lower SOs gets the point across to management rather quickly.



> I think that a fixed DP to SO makes more sense than starting endless discussions about who's kitchen is nicer. Of course we love to speculate!



I saw the posts about the green tile in the kitchens (which I actually thought looked great). But, there's no complaints about the blue tiles in the bathrooms?


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I also think this exchange shows what happens when they start to change the allocation of points for any given resort. In the end the market has validated the current configuration. I think that a fixed DP to SO makes more sense than starting endless discussions about who's kitchen is nicer. Of course we love to speculate!



I do not like the blue tile in the older Westin St John units either. But tile alone will not stop me from booking at a resort at the right price or SO/DP point level. I do think the interior design of a unit is more important than SOs or DPs since it will stop people from paying to stay there unless the price is low enough to make it worth it compared to other options. You can book at WLR for under $200 a night on Expedia so yes, the market has validated the value.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> Yes, and I think having numerous sales meetings with customers who refuse to purchase because of the lower SOs gets the point across to management rather quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> I saw the posts about the green tile in the kitchens (which I actually thought looked great). But, there's no complaints about the blue tiles in the bathrooms?


What if they switch the tiles and put blue tiles in the kitchen and green tiles in the bathroom? Can we all agree on that?


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## needvaca (Sep 23, 2018)

I've been to WLR twice.  I love the décor.  I love the green tiles.  I love the off white floor tiles.  The whole thing looks/feels fresh, clean, hip, modern and bigger than its actual size.  Also, the floor to ceiling windows are amazing.  IMHO an amazing property overall.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

needvaca said:


> I've been to WLR twice.  I love the décor.  I love the green tiles.  I love the off white floor tiles.  The whole thing looks/feels fresh, clean, hip, modern and bigger than its actual size.  Also, the floor to ceiling windows are amazing.  IMHO an amazing property overall.


it seems that it is TravelTime's time to go to Lagunamar


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

I looked up the SO charts. WLR is much fewer points in lower season. A 2 BR at WLR is 81,000 SOs in low season, the same as a 1 br in Hawaii. So I suspect MVC would not value Mexico the same as Hawaii and other more expensive locations. It seems like Vistana increased the SOs for WLR for sales purposes. Longer term, this does not make sense to maintain. I see what Ken555 means when he says Vistana has revalued the higher end locations, which effectively devalues the less expensive options.

Also if WLR is a voluntary resort, then it would be less valuable than a mandatory resort. I suspect MVC would give better enrollment options to owners of mandatory resorts because they would be losing the ability to exchange within Vistana. Voluntary owners only get HomeOptions, which are valuable for internal exchanging.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> it seems that it is TravelTime's time to go to Lagunamar



Yes I will go in the next 2 years, for sure! I do like the pool and lobby. I still do not like green and blue tiles, and I doubt a stay there will change my mind about the tiles. But I will probably like the resort overall. I like the interior design of the new Westin in Cancun much better. For me, the deciding factor will be how calm the ocean is. If the ocean is calm and swimmable, I could care less about ugly tiles. LOL I do really like the WLR pool and views. I like the way the pool and ocean join together. I stayed at the Intercontinental’s compound which is so ugly on the outside but loved its beach. Probably the best beach in Mexico outside of Isla Mujeres.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> What if they switch the tiles and put blue tiles in the kitchen and green tiles in the bathroom? Can we all agree on that?



I think they should go back to the original color scheme with green, blue, purple and pink. It reminds me of Temptation Cancun! Okay, time to close off this thread!


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I looked up the SO charts. WLR is much fewer points in lower season. A 2 BR at WLR is 81,000 SOs in low season, the same as a 1 br in Hawaii. So I suspect MVC would not value Mexico the same as Hawaii and other more expensive locations. It seems like Vistana increased the SOs for WLR for sales purposes. Longer term, this does not make sense to maintain. I see what Ken555 means when he says Vistana has revalued the higher end locations, which effectively devalues the less expensive options.


All Vistana resorts except Hawaii have lower number of SOs in the low season. This tells nothing about WLR.
With the rest we are just speculating but i still find it likely for the MVC will put a premium on the beach resorts where there is no overlap with all the other Marriott and Hyatt resorts.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> All Vistana resorts except Hawaii have lower number of SOs in the low season. This tells nothing about WLR.
> With the rest we are just speculating but i still find it likely for the MVC will put a premium on the beach resorts where there is no overlap with all the other Marriott and Hyatt resorts.



Just speculation but I do not think MVC will put an equivalent premium on Mexico resorts even if it is beachfront and there is little overlap in the current MVC system. Also WLR and others in Mexico are voluntary resorts so you are not allowed to exchange within Vistana system. You own one resort, correct? Can you exchange into other Vistana resorts?


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Just speculation but I do not think MVC will put an equivalent premium on Mexico resorts even if it is beachfront and there is little overlap in the current MVC system. Also WLR and others in Mexico are voluntary resorts so you are not allowed to exchange within Vistana system. You own one resort, correct? Can you exchange into other Vistana resorts?


I own a mandatory as well (and HGVC but that is besides the point) . We are speculating that they would invite voluntary resorts to enroll as well in the DP. I think that mandatory and voluntary bought from the developer may enroll automatically. As I said before, if they do not or if the enrollment fee is more than a few hundreds i am going to pass. At this moment our problem is that we would like to have more vacation time not that we desperately need DP.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I own a mandatory as well (and HGVC but that is besides the point) . We are speculating that they would invite voluntary resorts to enroll as well in the DP. I think that mandatory and voluntary bought from the developer may enroll automatically. As I said before, if they do not or if the enrollment fee is more than a few hundreds i am going to pass. At this moment our problem is that we would like to have more vacation time not that we desperately need DP.



Voluntary resort owners own one resort so they do not lose anything with the merger. Only mandatory resort owners are in a points program now. That is why I suspect MVC will make a better offer to high demand mandatory resort owners. I also think MVC will take MFs into account in terms of the various mandatory resorts. Many current owners of the SVV and WKV purshased them as a trader for entree into the VSE network. I do not think resale owners are the target market for MVC.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

By the way, i find the whole discussion about voluntary/ mandatory something that is only found in the TS world. If you are an owner, you should be able to transmit all the features of the contract. If i buy a house with a garage, guess what, i can sell a house with a garage. It is only in this world that they are so cheeky to sell people deeds that are worth next to nothing the next day. I know that the points are only part of the picture but still...

To make the conversation more interesting (for me) I always tell sales people that I would only buy from them if they can guarantee the exact same rights to the potential buyer in case i have to sell.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Voluntary resort owners own one resort so they do not lose anything with the merger. Only mandatory resort owners are in a points program now. That is why I suspect MVC will make a better offer to high demand mandatory resort owners.


I know you are hinting about Hawaii but it makes little sense since Marriott already has so many resorts there. For the record, i believe that they will want as many Vistana owners enrolled as possible and make money that way. 

It is said that TUG has put a $500,000 reward for the closest prediction!
(you know i am joking lol)


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

I think St John is the most valuable resort in Vistana. I think Hawaii and Nassau are in the second tier. These are the hardest resorts to book unless you own.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> By the way, i find the whole discussion about voluntary/ mandatory something that is only found in the TS world. If you are an owner, you should be able to transmit all the features of the contract. If i buy a house with a garage, guess what, i can sell a house with a garage. It is only in this world that they are so cheeky to sell people deeds that are worth next to nothing the next day. I know that the points are only part of the picture but still...
> 
> To make the conversation more interesting (for me) I always tell sales people that I would only buy from them if they can guarantee the exact same rights to the potential buyer in case i have to sell.



This is all part of my earlier comment re purposefully creating confusing systems to benefit (developer) sales.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Just speculation but I do not think MVC will put an equivalent premium on Mexico resorts even if it is beachfront and there is little overlap in the current MVC system. Also WLR and others in Mexico are voluntary resorts so you are not allowed to exchange within Vistana system. You own one resort, correct? Can you exchange into other Vistana resorts?



Those who purchased voluntary resorts from the developer have StarOptions. Those same StarOptions don't transfer to a new owner in the event they sell their week.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> By the way, i find the whole discussion about voluntary/ mandatory something that is only found in the TS world. If you are an owner, you should be able to transmit all the features of the contract. If i buy a house with a garage, guess what, i can sell a house with a garage. It is only in this world that they are so cheeky to sell people deeds that are worth next to nothing the next day. I know that the points are only part of the picture but still...
> 
> To make the conversation more interesting (for me) I always tell sales people that I would only buy from them if they can guarantee the exact same rights to the potential buyer in case i have to sell.



This discussion is only relevant to resale owners. Outside of resale, this has no meaning.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> Those who purchased voluntary resorts from the developer have StarOptions. Those same StarOptions don't transfer to a new owner in the event they sell their week.



Yes and they are the most valuable Vistana owners bc they purchased retail. MVC will want to treat them with kid gloves. They are worth a lot more revenue to MVC than I represent!


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I think St John is the most valuable resort in Vistana. I think Hawaii and Nassau are in the second tier. These are the hardest resorts to book unless you own.



Um... I don't think we should discuss relative "value" in this thread, since it's either objective based on cost or highly subjective based on any other factor.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> Um... I don't think we should discuss relative "value" in this thread, since it's either objective based on cost or highly subjective based on any other factor.



I do not own at WSJ. However I see it as the most valuable resort for objective reasons. It is the most expensive to purchase and it is the hardest to exchange into. It never appears in II either. Frankly, I have heard that it is not the most beautiful resort on St John and the location is not great, but it is the only real resort on St John. There are some good deals to purchase resale now but that is only due to the hurricane and slow re-building.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Yes and they are the most valuable Vistana owners bc they purchased retail. MVC will want to treat them with kid gloves. They are worth a lot more revenue to MVC than I represent!



Yes, of course. I suspect that if they offer an integration option in the future (and I'm not convinced they will), it will be ~$1000-2000 per week, but it's just a guess just like all others. I also suspect they will admit all weeks, regardless of ownership type or where you purchased it, at least up to a certain date (as Marriott did previously).

Like others, I see zero advantage at this time to convert my weeks assuming my existing ability to trade within the current group of resorts remains. If, on the other hand, Marriott opts to terminate the StarOption club altogether (which they can do) it would be a different story. Naturally, I doubt they would implement such an extreme change as it would only create negativity amongst their good customers.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 23, 2018)

tschwa2 said:


> if you book a week and the decide you want a different week - no cancellation fee, *unemployed* Marriott owners pay the fee.


Discriminatory to be charging unemployed people more money. Those are the ones that can least afford it!



TravelTime said:


> You can book at WLR for under $200 a night on Expedia so yes, the market has validated the value.


I think this will probably be one of the biggest reasons that they don't offer up as many DC points for WLR as they would for Hawaii properties. Also consider that another resort in Cancun is online. So WLR isn't the only game in town. Marriott also setup their initial DC point levels based on sales price, not really based on demand. If I understand correctly, they generally took the last known selling price of a season/view and divided it by 10 and that was the DC point value that they offered to owners. Our Grand Vista was offered 2,175 DC points and it roughly sold for $22K when DC came about. Know they may go to a more supply/demand standpoint with any new allocations when they bring new resorts online.

I still simply don't see them offering Cancun as many DC points as they do for any of the Hawaii properties There is so much inventory available in Cancun it isn't funny. Cancun is like Orlando, overbuilt. There are so many options in Cancun, in and outside of timeshare. We do BTW, love Cancun and WLR.



TravelTime said:


> For me, the deciding factor will be how calm the ocean is. If the ocean is calm and swimmable, I could care less about ugly tiles.


It could be considered swimmable, but nothing like Aruba or other parts of the Caribbean. Cancun is open to the Caribbean sea with no real offshore reef to protect it. If you go further south to the Riviera Maya, then the reef helps protect the shore and the ocean isn't as rough.



DannyTS said:


> By the way, i find the whole discussion about voluntary/ mandatory something that is only found in the TS world. If you are an owner, you should be able to transmit all the features of the contract. If i buy a house with a garage, guess what, i can sell a house with a garage. It is only in this world that they are so cheeky to sell people deeds that are worth next to nothing the next day. I know that the points are only part of the picture but still...
> 
> To make the conversation more interesting (for me) I always tell sales people that I would only buy from them if they can guarantee the exact same rights to the potential buyer in case i have to sell.


Voluntary/Mandatory is a Vistana thing. Their early properties had the SVN program rules embedded in the condo CC&R documents, thus all owners at those resorts are required to be in SVN/VSN. Then later Starwood realized that they were selling something that they knew later on they wouldn't be able to compete with. So they no longer wrote those SVN rules in to the underlying documents.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> Yes, of course. I suspect that if they offer an integration option in the future (and I'm not convinced they will), it will be ~$1000-2000 per week, but it's just a guess just like all others. I also suspect they will admit all weeks, regardless of ownership type or where you purchased it, at least up to a certain date (as Marriott did previously).
> 
> Like others, I see zero advantage at this time to convert my weeks assuming my existing ability to trade within the current group of resorts remains. If, on the other hand, Marriott opts to terminate the StarOption club altogether (which they can do) it would be a different story. Naturally, I doubt they would implement such an extreme change as it would only create negativity amongst their good customers.



You must remember that all pre-2010 Marriott weeks had the same benefits. Not all Vistana weeks have the same benefits. That is the only reason I suspect MVC will value Vistana resorts differently. Also in 2010, MVC had a blank slate and was able to identify “fair” points values across all resorts (Fair in quotes of course). If I were offered the opportunity to enroll my Vistana week for $2000, I would jump at the offer.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I do not own at WSJ. However I see it as the most valuable resort for objective reasons. It is the most expensive to purchase and it is the hardest to exchange into. It never appears in II either. Frankly, I have heard that it is not the most beautiful resort on St John and the location is not great, but it is the only real resort on St John. There are some good deals to purchase resale now but that is only due to the hurricane and slow re-building.



Is it really now the most expensive to purchase? Resale or retail? It's more expensive than resale WKORV OF? Consistently?


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> Is it really now the most expensive to purchase? Resale or retail? It's more expensive than resale WKORV OF? Consistently?



No not more than WKOVR Center OF but given the inconsistent views and lack of categories, it is more expensive on average because it is on St John.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> No not more than WKOVR Center OF but given the inconsistent views and lack of categories, it is more expensive on average because it is on St John.



Then it seems your value list is already incorrect. I don't think valuing the resorts in this manner is helpful in any way. Some are more difficult trade into. Some have great views. Some are in Hawaii. It's all about variety, which is why many of us bought. For you, WSJ is the most valuable. For me, it's among the least valuable (note I haven't been there). 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Voluntary/Mandatory is a Vistana thing. Their early properties had the SVN program rules embedded in the condo CC&R documents, thus all owners at those resorts are required to be in SVN/VSN. Then later Starwood realized that they were selling something that they knew later on they wouldn't be able to compete with. So they no longer wrote those SVN rules in to the underlying documents.



I don't recall the details, but I belive earlier (years ago) threads that discussed this issue mentioned some legal reasons why some resorts are mandatory. Of course, it wouldn't surprise me if the developer found ways around them.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> Then it seems your value list is already incorrect. I don't think valuing the resorts in this manner is helpful in any way. Some are more difficult trade into. Some have great views. Some are in Hawaii. It's all about variety, which is why many of us bought. For you, WSJ is the most valuable. For me, it's among the least valuable (note I haven't been there).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



If I could get a guaranteed reservation at WKOVR center oceanfront, that would be worth many more points to me than WSJ, even though I value St John higher than Hawaii. hence, that is why I think MVC will value things accordingly when they convert Vistana owners to DPs. In general, while I may not be a typical TUGGER, I am somewhat of a typical consumer. I think MVC should add views to WSJ so they can charge more points for units with better views...but that is unlikely due to the trees.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> If I could get a guaranteed reservation at WKOVR center oceanfront, that would be worth many more points to me than WSJ. hence, that is why I think MVC will value things accordingly when they convert Vistana owners to DPs. In general, while I may not be a typical TUGGER, I am somewhat of a typical consumer.



That's a separate issue.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> That's a separate issue.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Why is it a separate issue? MVC already awards more points to oceanfront at its Maui units and I was willing to pay a premium in destination points for oceanfront for next year’s reservation.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> I don't recall the details, but I belive earlier (years ago) threads that discussed this issue mentioned some legal reasons why some resorts are mandatory. Of course, it wouldn't surprise me if the developer found ways around them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes, it was discussed at length in this thread. It is ultimately based on the underlying condominium documents. So there are legal reasons they can't convert a resort from mandatory to voluntary. They can't however strip the mandatory status from a resort without super majority of owners voting for it. The developer however could simply scrap the whole VSN program altogether. Of course that wouldn't be good either. They could perhaps then replace it with something new, but those resale owners at mandatory resorts could argue that just changing the name of VSN to something else doesn't get the developer off the hook when it comes to mandatory properties.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> You can book at WLR for under $200 a night on Expedia so yes, the market has validated the value.


I am not sure where you see those prices.

Once you add taxes  etc, on Expedia a 1 bedroom in March at Lagunamar is $3500 non refundable and $4000  with free
cancellation. If you add the studio price (they do not rent 2 bedrooms), a 2 bedroom is $7,300 for a week (free cancellation)

Gold weeks might be cheaper but that is true at any destination.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I am not sure where you see those prices.
> 
> Once you add taxes  etc, on Expedia a 1 bedroom in March at Lagunamar is $3500 non refundable and $4000  with free
> cancellation. If you add the studio price (they do not rent 2 bedrooms), a 2 bedroom is $7,300 for a week (free cancellation)



I saw it today when I did a search for something in the next couple of months. If you book way in advance, the range is $200-$400 depending on unit size so, yes, booking now for March is probably $3500. There is no way anyone normal would pay $7300 for a week in Cancun except perhaps for Christmas, New Years or Easter when everything is overpriced. FYI, a 2 BR at WLR is not the 1 br price plus the studio price. Generally, a 2 bedroom may add $50 to $100 a night. Studio in Nov is $167 per night and 1 bedroom is $220. WLR is rated 4 stars on Expedia so it has a ton of competition in that region for the price. A garden view hotel room at Westin Maui is $366 for that week. A big difference from a studio at WLR to a hotel room with garden view in Maui. While Tuggers will not rent in Expedia, it does reflect the market’s opinion.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Why is it a separate issue? MVC already awards more points to oceanfront at its Maui units and I was willing to pay a premium in destination points for oceanfront for next year’s reservation.



Because the value you refer to is subjective.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I saw it today when I did a search for something in the next couple of months. If you book way in advance, the range is $200-$400 depending on unit size so, yes, booking now for March is probably $3500. There is no way anyone normal would pay $7300 for a week in Cancun except perhaps for Christmas, New Years or Easter when everything is overpriced. Studio in Nov is $167 per night and 1 bedroom is $220. WLR is rated 4 stars on Expedia so it has a ton of competition in that region for the price.


and this is the price on spg for a studio, 318 per night in November! By the way, the one bedroom is sold out for the same period


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> and this is the price on spg for a studio, 318 per night in November! By the way, the one bedroom is sold out for the same period
> View attachment 8315



Marriott and Vistana’s websites usually charge more than Expedia.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I saw it today when I did a search for something in the next couple of months. If you book way in advance, the range is $200-$400 depending on unit size so, yes, booking now for March is probably $3500. There is no way anyone normal would pay $7300 for a week in Cancun except perhaps for Christmas, New Years or Easter when everything is overpriced. Studio in Nov is $167 per night and 1 bedroom is $220. WLR is rated 4 stars on Expedia so it has a ton of competition in that region for the price. A garden view hotel room at Westin Maui is $366 for that week. A big difference from a studio at WLR to a hotel room with garden view in Maui. While Tuggers will not rent in Expedia, it does reflect the market’s opinion.


by the way, i need a 1 bedroom for October 28th-30th. Can you please find me the one you mentioned for 200 (tax in) ?


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Marriott and Vistana’s websites usually charge more than Expedia.


then look on Expedia, add taxes and let me know


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> Because the value you refer to is subjective.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Yes I agree my personal opinion is subjective. However the market view is not subjective. In general, the market values St John very highly. Like I said, I am not an owner at St John so I have no skin in the game. If I weren’t so cheap, I would have purchased WSJ.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> then look on Expedia, add taxes and let me know



I already did!


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Marriott almost always charges more than Expedia. I booked 5 days at Marriott in PV for about $80 a night because it was so much cheaper than Marriott’s website. I always compare the websites before booking to see if it is worth buying via Expedia or direct or using points. I had the choice of Marriott or Westin in PV for about the same price per night and chose Marriott because they tend to give me better benefits.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> by the way, i need a 1 bedroom for October 28th-30th. Can you please find me the one you mentioned for 200 (tax in) ?



As I was curious, it seems this actually isn't quite that expensive. Studios are naturally less expensive. I saw these on Kayak just now. I believe tax is additional.










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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Marriott almost always charges more than Expedia. I booked 5 days at Marriott in PV for about $80 a night because it was so much cheaper than Marriott’s website. I always compare the websites before booking to see if it is worth buying via Expedia or direct or using points. I had the choice of Marriott or Westin in PV for about the same price per night and chose Marriott because they tend to give me better benefits.


in any case, you know that October-November is very low season in Mexico-Caribbeans. Anything medium-high season is a completely different story


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> by the way, i need a 1 bedroom for October 28th-30th. Can you please find me the one you mentioned for 200 (tax in) ?



$232 for studio and $270 for 1 bedroom for 3 nights on Expedia from Oct 28-30. If you wait until the week of Nov 17, the studio is $167 and the one bedroom is $220. I have noticed that Expedia’s pricing changes from moment to moment. But I will not be saving screen shots.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> in any case, you know that October-November is very low season in Mexico-Caribbeans. Anything medium-high season is a completely different story



yes it is low season all over the world.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> As I was curious, it seems this actually isn't quite that expensive. Studios are naturally less expensive. I saw these on Kayak just now. I believe tax is additional.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


has anyone heard of Prestigia? i am really interested to book (I can cancel my other reservation) but the villa type does not make sense, they do not exist at Lagunamar


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> $232 for studio and $270 for 1 bedroom for 3 nights on Expedia from Oct 28-30. If you wait until the week of Nov 17, the studio is $167 and the one bedroom is $220. I have noticed that Expedia’s pricing changes from moment to moment. But I will not be saving screen shots.


as i said, October is Off season and it still is 500 per night for a 2 bedroom


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> yes it is low season all over the world.


and by the way Marriott Honolulu is also 200 dollars for that period so it proves absolutely nothing except  that it is low season


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## dioxide45 (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> as i said, October is Off season and it still is 500 per night for a 2 bedroom


But a 1BR in Hawaii for October at WKORV is $569. 2BR units are sold out.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> as i said, October is Off season and it still is 500 per night for a 2 bedroom



From what I can see, Expedia does not advertise 2 bedrooms at WLR. I assume that is because most people are looking for hotel rooms on Expedia and they are trying to advertise the lowest prices.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> and by the way Marriott Honolulu is also 200 dollars for that period so it proves absolutely nothing except  that it is low season
> 
> View attachment 8317



 Who goes to the Marriott at Honolulu. That is not a comparable option because it is a different hotel. Aulani is over $484 a night on Oct 28-30 for a hotel room and Marriott Ko Olina starts at $367 per night for a hotel room on the same days compared to $232 for a studio at WLR. All I am saying is that Hawaii will be valued at more. This does not mean that there is a problem with WLR. It is a beautiful resort and probably one of the best for what you get in Cancun. I would gladly stay at WLR in a one or two bedroom and I am sure I would be overjoyed...in spite of the tile. Frankly, I like the Caribbean ocean much more than Hawaii. This is why it is less expensive to buy into WLR vs the Westins in Maui.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

I have spent over $70,000 on the resale market to buy into MVC and enroll my weeks and about $12000 for my WKOVRN EOY week plus the high MFs. I would hate to see MVC enroll people for too cheap after I spent so much. If that is self interest, then I am selfish! But it is still less than half of the retail cost for what I own. I hope I live long enough to see my upfront costs pay off. Imagine all The vacations I could take at Marriott-owned resorts for $82,000! And that does not include DVC and Four Seasons.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> From what I can see, Expedia does not advertise 2 bedrooms at WLR. I assume that is because most people are looking for hotel rooms on Expedia and they are trying to advertise the lowest prices.


neither does spg. Probably (like Interval) they figure they can make more money by selling smaller units. I am not sure it is a demand issue, it cost them nothing to list.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> has anyone heard of Prestigia? i am really interested to book (I can cancel my other reservation) but the villa type does not make sense, they do not exist at Lagunamar
> 
> View attachment 8316



Without research, I'd pay the extra to purchase from Kayak.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I have spent over $70,000 on the resale market to buy into MVC and enroll my weeks and about $12000 for my WKOVRN EOY week plus the high MFs. I would hate to see MVC enroll people for too cheap after I spent so much. If that is self interest, then I am selfish! But it is still less than half of the retail cost for what I own. I hope I live long enough to see my upfront costs pay off. Imagine all The vacations I could take at Marriott-owned resorts for $82,000! And that does not include DVC and Four Seasons.


just to be clear, i am not saying that Hawaii is not generally more expensive than Cancun. Only that the prices you quoted for WLR are  because of the lowest season possible in Cancun and the Caribbean and/or last minute discounts


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> just to be clear, i am not saying that Hawaii is not generally more expensive than Cancun. Only that the prices you quoted for WLR are just because of the lowest season possible in Cancun and the Caribbean.



Yes I agree but it is all relative. I could quote higher prices for high season but then all prices worldwide would likely go up accordingly. High season is usually Jan-August for Hawaii and Christmas through Easter for the Caribbean including Mexico.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> Without research, I'd pay the extra to purchase from Kayak.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I think i am going to stay with my current reservation on spg. I got the owner's discount so it is not so bad (although more expensive than the prices you posted). 

I will not trust kayak this time (i know they are a reputable company). They also list rooms that do not exist at Lagunamar like a "double or twin room". Last thing i want is to ruin my last 2 days of vacation and waste time at the reception or on the phone with kayak.


*Studio, Room only*
$145.95

$28.44 taxes/fees

Cancellation policy 
*Villa, Room only*
Special Conditions

$145.95

$28.44 taxes/fees

Cancellation policy 
Special Conditions

$145.95

$28.44 taxes/fees

Cancellation policy 
*Studio, Sea View, Room only*
$156.73

$30.53 taxes/fees

Cancellation policy 
*Apartment, Room only*
$197.46

$38.47 taxes/fees

Cancellation policy 
*Run of the house 2 person, Room only*
$238.27

$46.41 taxes/fees

Cancellation policy 
*Double Room, Room only*
$321.39

$62.60 taxes/fees

Cancellation policy 
*Double Or Twin, Room only*
$373.40

$72.73 taxes/fees

Cancellation policy


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I think i am going to stay with my current reservation on spg. I got the owner's discount so it is not so bad (although more expensive than the prices you posted).
> 
> I will not trust kayak this time (i know they are a reputable company). They also list rooms that do not exist at Lagunamar like a "double or twin room". Last thing i want is to ruin my last 2 days of vacation and waste time at the reception or on the phone with kayak.



You know the trade off. Of course, you could always book and see what your confirmation shows (I believe one or two of those options included free cancelations).

This thread has now gone completely off topic and I apologize for all those who kept reading hoping we were talking about the system merger.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

Yes I said many, many posts ago that this thread had become a WLR thread.


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## Ken555 (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Yes I said many, many posts ago that this thread had become a WLR thread.



Was this post really necessary?


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## GregT (Sep 23, 2018)

Ken555 said:


> This thread has now gone completely off topic and I apologize for all those who kept reading hoping we were talking about the system merger.



 I do love my Starwood friends and I did keep reading this thread wondering if we were ever going to get back to the merger.

I think the skim is a horrible way to treat your loyal customers (who own the inventory Marriott needs in order to make reservations), I do believe Starwood Owners (all of them, at least as of Aug 28 2018 or so) will be allowed to participate in the Marriott system for a fee, and I think Marriott will move closer to an integrated system that covers all Starwood/Marriott properties.  It may be similar to the Wyndham/Worldmark system, where there is cross pollination between the two systems, but the point requirements to cross are excessive.

I think it’s going to be an interesting system, and it’s going to be expensive to participate.   Marriott is very smart, and I believe they will go to great lengths to make sure they do not deprive Starwood owners of their “rights”.

We will see, and I suspect I will use star options more frequently than Marriott DC points to visit my favorite Starwood properties.

Best,

Greg


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

GregT said:


> I think the skim is a horrible way to treat your loyal customers (who own the inventory Marriott needs)


Just to play devil's advocate.  I sometimes look at the HGVC booking system and the calendar does look like a Swiss cheese with an available day or 2 left here and there. Do you believe this to be a possible explanation for the skim rather than pure business greed?


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## dioxide45 (Sep 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> Just to play devil's advocate.  I sometimes look at the HGVC booking system and the calendar does look like a Swiss cheese with an available day or 2 left here and there. Do you believe this to be a possible explanation for the skim rather than pure business greed?


Does HGVC allow single night bookings at 13/12/10 months out? Do they also have housekeeping fees for short or multiple stays? The skim was said to be used to help with breakage and pay for all of the fees that you otherwise paid for out of pocket in the past.


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## DannyTS (Sep 23, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Does HGVC allow single night bookings at 13/12/10 months out? Do they also have housekeeping fees for short or multiple stays? The skim was said to be used to help with breakage and pay for all of the fees that you otherwise paid for out of pocket in the past.


HGVC is minimum 3 days at 9 months (when the home priority ends at most resorts) but there is a 65 dollar fee for all reservations on points, regardless of the length of stay.


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## GregT (Sep 23, 2018)

The Marriott system is what it is, and it’s a great system.  I have always disliked the skim, but also recognize they did not need to let legacy owners in, so it is just how the system was structured.  (But skimming sucks)

If the Marriott 2010 precedent holds, then, let’s use a specific example:

Imagine HRA owners (sold out/highly demanded resort) could enroll their [precious/valuable] week into Marriott DC Club.

Their Platinum 2BR (148,100 StarOptions) week can be redeemed for 5,000(?) Marriott DC points.

They can do a lot with 5,000 DC Points, but they note that it takes 5,750 DC points to book a Platinum 2BR at HRA.  Hmm.  Some owners (like me) are annoyed that they are skimmed.

They note that 5,000 DC points doesn’t get a 2BR in Maui, but 148,100 StarOptions does (if inventory is available).   Interesting dilemma between systems.  They note 5,000 DC points go a long way to new Marriott spots like Aruba/Newport Coast/Boston/Hilton Head/New York.  But they recognize 148,100 StarOptions are valuable too.

They see that Marriott recommends they buy 2,000 Trust points ($25,000) - and now 7,000 definitely gets a 2BR in Maui/Kauai/Oahu/Big Island - and availability is not a problem, plus 7,000 points makes them “Executive” status (ie, single night reservations, 13 months out). No more stress at 8 months out - reservations are available at 13 months out.

What to do?  Stay with StarOptions in a smaller system with unpredictable availability or gamble on Marriott and accept a less powerful deposit, and perhaps buy points to increase trading power?

Interesting situation.
——————

Marriott wants/needs new sales targets and Starwood owners are 2019 fodder.  For [5?] years I believe Marriott will mine the Starwood ownership, and then we will see what is next.

It will be interesting to watch this develop - time will tell.  Please recall, Marriott DC is simply an Exchange - like II - except we get a glimpse of supply/demand via DC point requirements.

Best,

Greg


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 24, 2018)

IMO Maybe I am not understanding but  $25,000 seems like a lot of money when you can get similar benefits in HGVC for the cost of a resale purchase which can run $5 - 8 k all in including your week.

$599 enrollment upon purchase, 3 night min reservations at 8 months, no housekeeping fees. 1 night min in NYC, DC but slightly diff rules.


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## GregT (Sep 24, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMO Maybe I am not understanding but  $25,000 seems like a lot of money when you can get similar benefits in HGVC for the cost of a resale purchase which can run 5 - 8 k all in including your week.
> 
> $599 enrollment upon purchase, 3 night min reservations at 8 months, no housekeeping fees. 1 night min in NYC, DC but slightly diff rules.


CalGal,

I love HGVC - I love their properties, I love their system, and I Love Love Love that we can buy into the system resale.

Unfortunately, Marriott and Starwood have blocked the ability to buy into their systems inexpensively.  Mandatory weeks are the rare exception into Starwood, and Marriott has totally shut down the inexpensive system access.

HGVC rocks, for sure.

Agreed that $25,000 to Marriott for 2,000 points is large price to pay to be able to better utilize their system.

Best,

Greg


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 24, 2018)

GregT said:


> I believe they will go to great lengths to make sure they do not deprive Starwood owners of their “rights”.
> 
> We will see, and I suspect I will use star options more frequently than Marriott DC points to visit my favorite Starwood properties.
> 
> ...



Thanks GregT for your perspective on Marriott. I hope you are correct and they will not take away or kill SO system "rights" for Vistana owners.

It sounds like the options to extend TS usage could be:

*Marriott a) *Enroll + buy DC points in Marriott for full flexibility and access to Marriott and Hyatt to maximize what the integrated system offers (approx. $25k)

*Marriott/Hybrid b)* Enroll existing week into DC system for limited use after skim (Enrollment plus Marriott annual club fee) then continue to use Vistana SO and/or leverage less expensive system such as HGVC for additional trading into other locations.

*Vistana SO Only c) *Keep Vistana week unenrolled and continue to use SOs to trade Vistana. Buy more Vistana mandatory resale for SOs (Subject to Marriott ROFR).

*Vistana Hybrid d) *Keep Vistana week unenrolled and continue to use SOs to trade Vistana and/or buy less expensive system resale such as HGVC for trading into other locations.

*Hyatt Weeks Purchase e) *Rather than paying $25k for DC points, buy a resale Hyatt week for <10k (subject to ROFR.) Hope to enroll that week for a lower fee than buying DC points.

Of course much of this decision will depend on the type of Vistana unit one owns. We own WKORV/N OF so do not plan to trade it much anyway, and can use our HGVC properties/points to trade into other locations and/or short stays. Since we are squarely in one of the two hybrids, paying for additional DC points would not offer significantly greater value for us, however we would likely enroll the existing unit if the fee were low.

OTOH If someone owns a Bella or Key West trader, or a voluntary resort purchased resale they may see greater value in enrollment and buying DC.  However it might be more cost effective to buy another resale week in Vistana or Hyatt and enroll the weeks instead.

It will be interesting to see what MVC ultimately offers.


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## bobpark56 (Sep 25, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> it seems that it is TravelTime's time to go to Lagunamar


If you go, be sure to check in with the concierge folks. We have found them to provide the best and most helpful concierge services anywhere...and we travel 120-150 days per year. They have sufficient folks on duty that there is seldom a wait.


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## blondietink (Sep 26, 2018)

We agree that the Concierge in the main building just off the large lobby are the best!  However, we were stuck in building 14 on our last visit and were assigned to the concierge next to building 11.  They were not very good at all and we were given conflicting information all the time.  I don't know if they were in training or what, but we were quoted one price for excursions, then when we went back to book them we were quoted much higher prices.  We also asked about restaurant discounts and they told us there weren't any!  We tried to use the main concierge desk and were told we couldn't.  It was not a very good experience at all.


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## Steve A (Oct 5, 2018)

Buy a cheap Marriott week from a retailer or owner. Join II and you’re in the system. If you want DC points buy them second hand. Your friends at Marriott will make you pay junk fees but it’s a cheaper way into the system.


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## TravelTime (Oct 5, 2018)

GregT said:


> CalGal,
> 
> I love HGVC - I love their properties, I love their system, and I Love Love Love that we can buy into the system resale.
> 
> ...



From what I can see if the HGVC system, they have many great urban properties but many less beachside and international locations.


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## CalGalTraveler (Oct 5, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> From what I can see if the HGVC system, they have many great urban properties but many less beachside and international locations.



It depends on where you want to stay. The systems are different in location and focus. We added Vistana because it added complementary locations of Maui and Kauai to HGVC which is strong beachside on Oahu and BI. There are also other complementary locations.

Unlike Marriott, HGVC treats resale buyers well. They are aggressively adding new properties. Here is a list from the HGVC thread:

*Recent Additions:*
1. The Bay Forest Odawara, Japan (by Mt Fuji, 1 hour outside Tokyo), by Hilton Club
2. Borgo alle Vigne, Tuscany
3. The Residences NYC
4. The District, Washington DC, Georgetown
5. Ocean Oak, Hilton Head Island (beachside)
6. Ocean 22, Myrtle Beach (beachside)
7. Grand Islander, Waikiki  (beachside)
8. Ocean Enclave, Myrtle Beach  (beachside)
9. Hilton Villamoura, Portugal [added]
10. Hilton Craigendarroch Scotland [added]


*Officially Announced*

1. Saint Philip, Barbados: HGVC @ The Crane (beachside)
2. New York, New York: The Quin by Hilton Club
3. Cabo San Lucas, Mexico: HGVC @ Los Cabos (beachside)
4. Chicago, Illinois: Chicago  Chicago by HGVC
5. Ocean Tower, BI (beachside)
6. Waikiki, bHC
7. Okinawa, Japan (beachside, new build)
8. Liberty Place, Charleston, SC, bHC

*Rumored*

Turtle Bay, HI: HGVC @ Turtle Bay _"rumored"_
Ambergris Caye, Belize: Mahogany Bay Resort & Beach Club @ HGVC _"rumored"_
San Francisco, CA: _"rumored"_
China: _"rumored"_


Even in locations where they overlap, each has it's strengths.

IMO I would like to see more European cities in both systems.


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## DannyTS (Oct 5, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> From what I can see if the HGVC system, they have many great urban properties but many less beachside and international locations.


Missing on CalGalTraveler's list is Hilton Vilamoura in Portugal


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## Ken555 (Oct 5, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMO I would like to see more European cities in both systems.



Yes!


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## TravelTime (Oct 5, 2018)

It seems like Hilton does many partnerships with other resorts. How does this work? Do they change them from time to time?


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## CalGalTraveler (Oct 5, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> Missing on CalGalTraveler's list is Hilton Vilamoura in Portugal



Thanks. Just edited to add to the list.


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## CalGalTraveler (Oct 5, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> It seems like Hilton does many partnerships with other resorts. How does this work? Do they change them from time to time?



That's a complex topic. Overall it doesn't change much with the exception of an acquisition of a partner or new partnership additions e.g. Diamond purchased Embarc system so we no longer had trading rights into those properties. Alternatively, they purchased a section of Crane Barbados timeshares to their offerings which HGVC will sell and broadens options for HGVC owner trades.

HGVC is moving to an "asset light" model and not building many of their own properties from the ground up anymore.  While MVC will be consumed with program and IT infrastructure integration and program roll-outs, HGVC will be agile in adding new properties to keep up with Marriott/ILG size:

3rd party developer builds property, then HGVC manages (e.g. Grand Islander, Elara). HGVC sells deed. Looks and acts no different than an HGVC "built" property.
Affiliate Access: owners buy into their respective system but have reciprocal access with $599 enrollment fee e.g.  Fiesta Americana (Mexico), Embarc, Grand Pacific.
Hilton Hotel conversions - converting buildings or floors of existing resorts (e.g. District, Ocean Tower, The Residences NYC). HGVC manages with separate check-in, lounge etc.
The beauty of these affiliate options are that unlike II or RCI, you are not stuck with a full week trade; every owner can reserve as little as 3 days with points and seamlessly reserve via HGVC system with point similar to other trades. I believe SOs are similar but I am too new to Vistana to say for sure.

For HGVC, every property is "enrolled" for $599 upon purchase so every property is available to the system because very few owners use their home week; the system is very fluid.  But unlike other trust point systems, the points are tied to a specific deed so very difficult, if not impossible, for the developer to devalue.

If you need further info, probably best to ask on the HGVC Forum.


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## DannyTS (Oct 5, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks. Just edited to add to the list.


and Hilton Craigendarroch Scotland


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## CalGalTraveler (Oct 5, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> and Hilton Craigendarroch Scotland


 Just added. Thanks.


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