# Facts Showing 2009 was a Bad Year for HI Tourism



## ricoba (Feb 16, 2010)

As we all know, it was a rough year on tourism in Hawaii in 09.  Here is an article from the Honolulu Advertiser showing just how rough it was.


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## dougp26364 (Feb 16, 2010)

ricoba said:


> As we all know, it was a rough year on tourism in Hawaii in 09.  Here is an article from the Honolulu Advertiser showing just how rough it was.



I wonder what the #'s are like for timeshare occupancy in Hawaii?


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## ricoba (Feb 16, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I wonder what the #'s are like for timeshare occupancy in Hawaii?



That is an excellent question, but I wonder who knows these statistics?


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## gejone (Feb 16, 2010)

I was recently at MOC and asked one of the managers. In Jan. they were about 90% occupied and he said they ran between 90-98% occupied throughout the year. That's the beauty of TS's for the management companies, they can forecast their occupancy which gives them a more stable work force budget, and hopefully keeps are maintanence fees down.


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## ricoba (Feb 16, 2010)

gejone said:


> I was recently at MOC and asked one of the managers. In Jan. they were about 90% occupied and he said they ran between 90-98% occupied throughout the year. That's the beauty of TS's for the management companies, they can forecast their occupancy which gives them a more stable work force budget, and hopefully keeps are maintanence fees down.



I am not saying I don't believe you...but that's anecdotal evidence and not factual evidence.   I'd like to see that figure backed up by hard evidence and not something an employee would say.  Again, this is not directed at you personally, I just am suspect of what employees may say versus what the numbers say.


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## jlr10 (Feb 17, 2010)

gejone said:


> I was recently at MOC and asked one of the managers. In Jan. they were about 90% occupied and he said they ran between 90-98% occupied throughout the year. That's the beauty of TS's for the management companies, they can forecast their occupancy which gives them a more stable work force budget, and hopefully keeps are maintanence fees down.



Sounds good, in theory.  But when we travel to Hawaii all the timeshares were we stayed (including Waiohai) are claiming they had to cut expenses and lay off employees.  Little perks are gone and employees look more strained.  Also MOC is part of a large corporation where demand to stay/exchange is high. But even Marriotts are having to cut expenses, but slowing down or stopping construction.   

It would be interesting to see how the smaller resorts are doing, and the whole industruy overall.  Even if timeshares are doing well tourism is way down there.  The other islands may begin to follow Maui's example and look to find a way to recover their losses from the people who continue to come.


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## sailingman22 (Feb 17, 2010)

I asked the same question in December 09 to management at the Kahana Beach in Maui and Pono Kai and both resorts stated that they averaged over 90% occupancy. I believe that this was listed on the news letter sent with the 2010 maintenance bill for Pono Kai. Call your resort and ask.


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## John Cummings (Feb 17, 2010)

I would not expect timeshare occupancy to be suffering nearly as badly as hotel occupancy though I imagine it is off a bit. People have already paid for their timeshares so most are going to use them.

In any event we will be in Hawaii for 2 weeks this April so we will help out their economy with lots of tours and restaurant meals, etc.


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## jtridle (Feb 17, 2010)

jlr10 said:


> It would be interesting to see how the smaller resorts are doing, and the whole industruy overall.  Even if timeshares are doing well tourism is way down there.  The other islands may begin to follow Maui's example and look to find a way to recover their losses from the people who continue to come.



I own at a very, very small timeshare on Maui (One Napili Way).  I rent my unit out through the resort's management.  He could only get $1,500 for the week (and it was July 4th checkin) rather than the $2,500/wk he has gotten in the past.  He said last spring that Maui is a ghostown.  Many people who usually used their units weren't going because of the economy and very high airline prices to get there.


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## jacknsara (Feb 17, 2010)

John Cummings said:


> ... People have already paid for their timeshares so most are going to use them. ...


Aloha,
My notes are not handy, but my recollection from the Wed AM owners meeting this January at PAHIO KBV is that MF delinquencies / defaults are up. Not enough yet to be catastrophic, but a bit worrisome.
Jack


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## ricoba (Feb 18, 2010)

jacknsara said:


> Aloha,
> My notes are not handy, but my recollection from the Wed AM owners meeting this January at PAHIO KBV is that MF delinquencies / defaults are up. Not enough yet to be catastrophic, but a bit worrisome.
> Jack



So even if it is true that timeshares have higher occupancy rates than hotels, the issue may be defaults due to non-payment of MF's which are I believe traditionally higher in HI than on the mainland...interesting, thanks for the input.


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## John Cummings (Feb 18, 2010)

jacknsara said:


> Aloha,
> My notes are not handy, but my recollection from the Wed AM owners meeting this January at PAHIO KBV is that MF delinquencies / defaults are up. Not enough yet to be catastrophic, but a bit worrisome.
> Jack



You are correct. That is a problem everywhere and not just Hawaii. People are seeing hefty increases with their M/F's because of this.


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## cgeidl (Feb 21, 2010)

*Increased flight cost*

People owning TS may trade them and avoid the high flight cost.I wonder what the occupancy rate is. It seems the CA Coast properties are fuller than usual and maybe it is because people are driving there to save.


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## John Cummings (Feb 21, 2010)

cgeidl said:


> People owning TS may trade them and avoid the high flight cost.I wonder what the occupancy rate is. It seems the CA Coast properties are fuller than usual and maybe it is because people are driving there to save.



That very well could be. Owning 2 coastal California resorts. and having stayed at several other resorts in California, my experience has been that most of the visitors are from California. Having a population of 34 million in California and a limited number of coastal properties it is no surprise that they are full.


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## ricoba (Feb 21, 2010)

John Cummings said:


> That very well could be. Owning 2 coastal California resorts. and having stayed at several other resorts in California, my experience has been that most of the visitors are from California. Having a population of 34 million in California and a limited number of coastal properties it is no surprise that they are full.



I think you are right about this John.  Our resorts are for the most part drive to, and so they make an easy get away for those of us who are fortunate enough to live here.


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## John Cummings (Feb 21, 2010)

ricoba said:


> I think you are right about this John.  Our resorts are for the most part drive to, and so they make an easy get away for those of us who are fortunate enough to live here.



We are reaching the point now where we have no desire to go outside of California. After our Hawaii and New York City trips this year, we probably won't travel outside the state. It has nothing, to do with cost but simply we don't want to go anywhere else. We have been everywhere that we want to. We have always exchanged our Gaslamp Plaza Suites timeshare in downtown San Diego but are planning on using it ourselves for the July 4th week next year. I have it reserved. After that, I am going to sell it.


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## asp (Feb 21, 2010)

*Property taxes*

Didn't some of the islands raise their property taxe rates for timeshare (as compared to hotels) ?  decided timehsare people didn't spend as much money?  only heard a rumour.  That could make it even harder for people to afford to travel - pay your maintenance fees, and stay home; or lose the property or be sent to collections.  Rental rates on most hotels are much lower now.


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## ricoba (Feb 21, 2010)

asp said:


> Didn't some of the islands raise their property taxe rates for timeshare (as compared to hotels) ?  decided timehsare people didn't spend as much money?  only heard a rumour.  That could make it even harder for people to afford to travel - pay your maintenance fees, and stay home; or lose the property or be sent to collections.  Rental rates on most hotels are much lower now.



I think it is Maui that did this, but I am not sure.


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## JeffW (Feb 21, 2010)

Hawaii is a beautiful place to visit, but for a good portion of the the country, it's one of the most expense states to travel to.  Even if you own a resort there (lodging costs = ~$0), it's still a pretty panel for a family of 4 to fly out there, and stay there for a week.  I'm sure there are lots of people that would lose the week (or bank it for future use) because they can't or don't want to spend the $$$$ to get there.

Jeff


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## curtbrown (Feb 22, 2010)

We were on Maui last March and I talked to some of the small business owners while we were there.  They told me the TS owners were the only ones keeping them in business.  The hotel occupancy was way down and many of the full ownership people were staying home.

However, the Westin TS sales people were telling me TS sales were down to the point that they had stopped construction at the new Kaanapali  North property until things picked up again.


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## dive-in (Feb 24, 2010)

Not sure if this is further evidence or just a seasonal adjustment.  Continental is pulling one of their two Houston to Honolulu round trips in mid-April.  Last day with two flights is April 10.  It hit us on our trip home.  Now we have an extra 2 hours in Houston on the way home.  :annoyed:


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## Kauai Kid (Feb 24, 2010)

Maui increased property tax on time-shares a couple years ago.  The board of directors at the Maui Schooner sued the county and got the evaluation decreased 10%.  One of the county politicians said "we don't want those kind of people"  ie timeshare owners.  I suspect he may be eating his words.

We were on Maui in January and one of the employees at the Marriott said they were full over Christmas and New Years and the second week of January they were at 60% occupancy.

The Schooner was at +90% occupancy during the same time period.

Airfare is an issue with travel to the Islands too.  Round trip coach,  with one stop each way--to avoid Honolulu, is over $1100 right now for next January from Texas.  Ouch.


Sterling


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## ricoba (Feb 24, 2010)

I just an email from Hawaiian airlines advertising flights out of LAX for this spring, starting at $478. 

Last summer when we went it was around $350 as I remember on UAL.

If I lived in the Midwest or back East, I would be one of those people wondering if I could afford to fly to HI at rates like they are currently offering. Even for a family of 4 going out of LAX $478 per/person would be a big bite in our budget.


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## JeffW (Feb 24, 2010)

I've always wanted to have a degree in airline ticket pricing 

Anyway, one could take the approach that a good amount of airline expenses (back office staff, crew, maintenance, etc) are fixed costs, that are the same regardless if they are running flights 10% full, or 90% full.   With less people travelling, those costs need to be distributed across fewer people, resulting in higher fares.  

The high fares could also be the result of high capacity (less supply -> higher cost).  When I went to Hawaii in October (still in the midst of the recession, and not a peak travel time), our flights to and from the mainland were close to 100% full (return flight, they were oversold).  

Trips to Hawaii, unlike perhaps other places, could be very polar:  some people may have to cancer/defer because of the cost, whereas others might want to go regardless.

Jeff


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## ricoba (Feb 24, 2010)

JeffW said:


> Trips to Hawaii, unlike perhaps other places, could be very polar:  some people may have to cancer/defer because of the cost, whereas others might want to go regardless.
> 
> Jeff



While we definitely love Hawaii, we are not in the camp that can "damn the prices" and just up and go.


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## pedro47 (Feb 24, 2010)

Tourism was also down in Colonial Williamsburg, VA by 30 %.


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## Twinkstarr (Feb 24, 2010)

pedro47 said:


> Tourism was also down in Colonial Williamsburg, VA by 30 %.



Was in Myrtle Beach July 4th week, local news said something that so far for summer MB tourism was up(single digits, but up).


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## Kauai Kid (Feb 24, 2010)

ricoba said:


> I think it is Maui that did this, but I am not sure.



Maui did raise property taxes on time shares a few years ago because they "didn't want those sort of people" eg timeshare owners.

The Maui Schooner board of directors sued Maui county and down went the property evaluation 10%.

The Schooner was +90% capacity the first two weeks of January 2010
I believe the big resorts were at capacity over Christmas and New Years and then dropped to 60% capacity.

Sterling


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## John Cummings (Feb 24, 2010)

ricoba said:


> I just an email from Hawaiian airlines advertising flights out of LAX for this spring, starting at $478.
> 
> Last summer when we went it was around $350 as I remember on UAL.
> 
> If I lived in the Midwest or back East, I would be one of those people wondering if I could afford to fly to HI at rates like they are currently offering. Even for a family of 4 going out of LAX $478 per/person would be a big bite in our budget.



I got a cheaper fare than that on a multi-city flight from LAX - Kona - Honolulu - LAX. We are staying one week at Kona and the following week at Waikiki in April so we dd a multi-city flight which was the best schedule wise and cost. We booked it with "Cheap Tickets".


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## LisaRex (Feb 25, 2010)

Property taxes on Maui are outrageous. The MFs on my timeshare are outrageous. The airfare is outrageous. 

I used to love Maui.  Now I'm beginning to despise it.  The local politicians treat us with contempt, going so far as saying that they don't want timeshare people on their island.  Fine.  After our vacation in June, which was already planned and paid for, I'll be very happy to get rid of my Maui timeshare and spend my vacation dollars somewhere that I'm not treated so poorly.


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## jlr10 (Feb 25, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> Property taxes on Maui are outrageous. The MFs on my timeshare are outrageous. The airfare is outrageous.
> 
> I used to love Maui.  Now I'm beginning to despise it.  The local politicians treat us with contempt, going so far as saying that they don't want timeshare people on their island.  Fine.  After our vacation in June, which was already planned and paid for, I'll be very happy to get rid of my Maui timeshare and spend my vacation dollars somewhere that I'm not treated so poorly.



Try Kauai.  When we were there last year the people we ran into were going out of their way to let us know how much they appreciated our visit and how much they realize we are adding to their economy.


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## LisaRex (Feb 26, 2010)

jlr10 said:


> Try Kauai.  When we were there last year the people we ran into were going out of their way to let us know how much they appreciated our visit and how much they realize we are adding to their economy.



I appreciate the comment.  I definitely want to try Kauai one day but with airfare at $1100 pp coach, it's not looking all that promising for 2011.


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## JeffW (Feb 26, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> I appreciate the comment.  I definitely want to try Kauai one day but with airfare at $1100 pp coach, it's not looking all that promising for 2011.



Is that directly to LIH (Kauai)?  If so, check for flights to HNL, then an interisland HNL-LIH flight.

Jeff


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## JeffW (Feb 26, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> Property taxes on Maui are outrageous. The MFs on my timeshare are outrageous. The airfare is outrageous.
> 
> I used to love Maui.  Now I'm beginning to despise it.  The local politicians treat us with contempt, going so far as saying that they don't want timeshare people on their island.  Fine.  After our vacation in June, which was already planned and paid for, I'll be very happy to get rid of my Maui timeshare and spend my vacation dollars somewhere that I'm not treated so poorly.



I can sort of understand.  Maui was a very nice island, but the amount of development over the last decade, almost all tourist related, definitely has changed the island.  Similar thing with Key West: it was probably a great secret place 20+ years ago, but now with 3 large Hyatt timeshares, 2000 passenger cruise ships docking there, the secret is out, and it's definitely not the same place it was before.

Overall, is this a good thing or bad thing, I'm not sure.  But it's definitely as different thing.

Jeff


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## LisaRex (Feb 26, 2010)

JeffW said:


> Is that directly to LIH (Kauai)?  If so, check for flights to HNL, then an interisland HNL-LIH flight.
> 
> Jeff



Lowest from CVG to HNL was $1100, but then you'd have to pay for an intraisland.  Lowest from CVG to LIH was $1200. 

Too pricey.


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## John Cummings (Feb 26, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> I appreciate the comment.  I definitely want to try Kauai one day but with airfare at $1100 pp coach, it's not looking all that promising for 2011.



Check "Cheap Tickets". Our multi-city flight this April cost less than that for the 2 of us.


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