# Why I am done with HGVC from an Elite Premier Member



## zerocylinders (Nov 28, 2019)

We have over 40,000 annual points in HGVC, including Barbados and Sunrise Lodge that were developer purchases (rest resale).  We recently decided to make a Marriott Vacation Club purchase because we anticipate a regular trip to St. Thomas where HGVC has no offerings.  We ended up with a 29,000 point annual package with MVC.  We have since made the decision to slowly unwind most of our HGVC ownership because of how superior MVC is.

I thought it might be helpful to share our experiences and thinking, particularly the comparison between the two systems (I know folks also love Disney, but the limited offerings there make that choice an apples to oranges comparison).  This is a long post, and represents years of experience over the past 9 years with HGVC.  It is long because I am primarily writing this: (1) for someone considering buying into HGVC now, who might be interested in comparing HGVC to MVC; and (2) if anyone at HGVC cares to save their company and ends up reading this, for constructive criticism of a system that I used to really enjoy but now want to leave.

Please don’t consider this a troll poss.  As far as the properties go, we absolutely LOVE HGVC.  I have never had a complaint about HGVC’s properties.  We still love Eagles Nest and our Bay Club Kona Villa and will probably keep those properties just because we love staying there.  We have never had a bad experience and have stayed at most of the US HGVC properties.  That same positive comment applies to staff, room size, amenities, cleanliness, furnishings, etc.  The foregoing is the reason we have stayed within the HGVC system so long, despite the warning signs discussed below.

Also on the positive side, HGVCs maintenance fees are generally (if you choose properties, unit sizes, and seasons with maintenance fees in mind) lower per week than a comparable MVC property.  That is why we avoided MVC in the past... 

With all of that, you would think that we would just want to stay with HGVC where we have spent so much time and money.  However, our recent MVC experience really brought home how many problems HGVC has and explains why HGVC is having problems in the investment market (see the other post re poor HGVC financial performance and possible takeover rumors). 

1) Balkanization of HGVC. One of the biggest problems in HGVC is that every property presents a fundamentally different ownership - a point is NOT just a point.  For example, owners at the “Hilton Club” in NY and DC have almost exclusive access to their own properties while they also get full access to my properties.  This creates a new tier where you must buy into those properties in order to get full access.  As discussed in my other post, Barbados has so few units that it hardly an option and the maintenance fees exceed market rental rates.  Many properties have “event weeks” that are completely unavailable to ordinary Elite Premier owners (Sunset Lodge for example has the only week we want as an event week but that was not disclosed to us).  Why such disparity?  The answer, I think, lies partly in HGVC’s go to market strategy that it refers to as “capital lite” - e.g., they actually brag about not spending capital on new development.  What this actually means in practice is that HGVC is just a brand and management company that is used on a third party development project.  Whatever the reason, though, it is frustrating.  Buying from HGVC now requires a careful analysis of which property’s developer is offering the best deal, reading through complex disclosure statements to find the gotchas that vary from project to project, and having faith that there will not in the future be a better deal from a different developer that you will be forced into to maintain real status (e.g., the Hilton Club situation).  MVC has some of that in its “legacy” weeks system, but its newer DC points system is straightforward and egalitarian.  The only way to get a leg up on other owners in the DC point system is to buy more points (giving a 13 month reservation advantage at 7000 points), but even that vanishes if you are willing to use extra points to get the 13 month window (which is an allowed move in the system).  “Event weeks” in MVC similarly just require more points, they are not allocated to any particular owner (except for legacy weeks that are no longer sold).  The “city” clubs like NY and Boston within MVC similarly require more points, but are open to all on an equal basis.   

2)  Corporate vs Local HGVC.  A related issue is the constant battle between obviously commissioned sales agents representing a particular development (e.g., the local sales team at a property like Sunrise Lodge) versus the Orlando corporate team.  They literally fight each other for your business, each claiming to have the best deal.  There are all kinds of tricks documented in this forum for maximizing that fight to get the real best deal.  Because of the balkanization issue, getting the best deal requires that you know quite a lot about the HGVC system (for example, knowing about he South Florida Hilton resales, NY Club advantages, using resale trade-ups, local event weeks, etc.) in addition to the basic $/point economics.  This is ultimately an exhausting way to buy a timeshare though.  In contract, dealing with MVC was a dream.  There was no competition, no infighting, they all talk to each other work together as a team (even between local and corporate teams).  

3) Lying HGVC Sales Team.  We have had three situations where the HGVC sales person has lied to us, or promised things that never happened after closing.  The latest example (which may have been our final straw when combined with the great experience we had buying from MVC) is instructive.  As part of a complex deal we traded a 3 bedroom premier unit at Sunrise for the new Barbados property (plus cash from us).  One of the drivers to this deal for us was that our bastard child - a Grand Pacific Palisades 3 bedroom that we bought not realizing that it could not be registered with HGVC  - would be brought into HGVC ownership.  This was not just a passing promise, we had it in writing and reconfirmed several times.  Of course, it never happened and the Grand Pacific local sales team (see points 1 & 2 above also) say no one ever talked to them and they refused to move our GPP unit into HGVC ownership.    Ultimately, though, no  one at HGVC cares enough to fix the issue (or they can’t because of the balkanization issue).  In comparison, we dealt with at least 4 different MVC reps including local and corporate.. surprisingly they all worked together as a team, there was no fight for commission visible to us, and they all worked hard to get our deal closed AND to fulfill promises made AFTER closing. 

4) Limits on (Legal) Rentals Kill Big Ownership Economics.  According to HGVC rules, you may only rent your home week (you are not legally permitted to rent a Club point reservation that is not a home week).  You also cannot “rent” HGVC points, even to another HGVC owner.  Other options for using excess points are extremely unattractive financially.  This all means that I have to plan carefully a year in advance for points I need, then reserve home weeks at the properties I will rent... then post on VRBO (which has been increasingly taking more and more of the rental fees), find a renter for my home week, and deal with each week rental.  In a few cases (Anderson Club, Sunset Lodge, Eagle’s Nest) we have consistently seen rentals easily made above maintenance fees.  But, it is a huge hassle and other properties (Kona, Orlando, Vegas, Barbados) are difficult to impossible to rent above maintenance fees. And without any option to rent points, unused points end up as Hilton HHonors points that have very limited use (HHonors has become one of the least valuable points systems over the past few years, and even at 25:1 transfer ratio it is better to spend cash than points).  In comparison, I was able to “rent” over 24,000 MVC 2020 points that we can’t use for about $15K.  It took me 3 days from posting to completing the transfer with MVC and paid my maintenance fees for 2020 plus a good return on invested capital.  

5) Geographic concentration of inventory.  HGVC is heavily concentrated in Orlando, Vegas, the Big Island of Hawaii, and Honolulu.  A few other choices with limited inventory (Sunset Lodge, Barbados) and the Hilton Club properties round out the offerings.  No Caribbean offerings of any import (as discussed above and in my other post, Barbados is a bad joke).  While MVC also has a massive amount of inventory in Orlando, it also has a much much wider spread of offerings across the for example: Hawaii (including Maui and Kauai), multiple Florida locations like Ft Lauderdale not covered by HGVC, Arizona, Boston, St. Thomas, St Kitts, etc. etc.

6) Instability due to IPO.  The spin out of HGVC from the larger Hilton organization had exactly the effect I feared - disastrous.  They are now fending off offers from private equity that would clearly milk existing owners until the whole thing collapses.  Financial performance has not been on par with Wall Street expectations.  It all points to a very uncertain future, without the backing of Hilton.


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## DazedandConfused (Nov 28, 2019)

wow...interesting read.

40,000 HGVC points and 29,000 MVC points are HUGE amounts of points.

I own about half that HGVC and own a ton of DVC points. I also sold my Marriott week about 10 years ago before the points conversion.

I understand all your concerns and think some of the issues may be related to owing too many points. In other words, you may enjoy it more if you owned less. But the Achilles Heel of HGVC is the limited number of geographic locations.

To put things in perspective, I also agree that the Balkanization of HGVC is a BAD thing, and I take pride in sneaking into the owners clubs in NYC, but they are very overrated. I just booked HGVC in NYC and it amazed me how much this can save me vs paying cash for a hotel.

I also like the Las Vegas properties and Hawaii, but don't go to Hawaii too often. I only send family to Orlando as I prefer using my DVC points for Disney.

I convert excess HGVC points to HHonors and I understand that that may not be great value, but is is great for European Hilton hotels on points.

I was NOT aware of the HGVC rental limitations as I have never rented HGVC points, but that too is not a good thing.

I also try my best to stay away from the sales reps as they are all like dogs looking for a tasty bone to chew on.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 28, 2019)

Interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing. I can see your position given the sales teams led you astray.

Although HGVC has it's downsides as you stated, the only big one in my mind is #6. However I believe MVC suffers the same issue.

I will be interested in your opinion in a few years when the MVC honeymoon wears off.

1) Balkanization. We own in NYC and would never use expensive NYC points outside of bHC, so that concern is moot to us. I have heard other NYC owners state the same conclusion. I don't think HGVC owners should be worried. We've never had problems trading into other HGVC using our Vegas club points as long as we do it early. However, we have not stayed at the Crane so understand your frustration.

2) & 3) We buy resale so ignore what HGVC sales says. Non-issue to us.

4) Renting points. I like MVCs and Disney's approach. However I would be more likely to enroll our Vistana WKORVN deeded resale unit and rent out those associated points or rent from other MVC points owners rather than buying more points to rent out. As @DazedandConfused stated, this may be an outcome of owning too many points. Did you consider buying resale deeded MVC or Vistana weeks and then enrolling them later?

5)  Locations: We are increasingly renting, using cash getaways, or trading timeshares in II or RCI when we cannot get HGVC (or our Vistana) rather than buying into another system. Therefore limited location not a problem. Cash rentals, trading, and hotel points give us the greatest flexibility at the lowest risk.

6) If Diamond or Apollo are involved we will re-evaluate our HGVC position and may transition to MVC/Vistana or rent.

Despite the drawbacks, the HGVC system is much less expensive and has less likelihood of devaluation compared to DC trust points which are not tied to specific deeds. So I don't mind putting up with these issues as I see them as minor but am winning via lower cost.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Nov 28, 2019)

I will note that the MFs on 29,000 Marriott points run around $16,820 a year (@ $.58 a point). That would get 7 weeks in low season in Hawaii. In the highest season weeks Just under 5 weeks.

Seven weeks at Bay Club would run around $12,000, for any week other than 51, and 52; which is about 25% less. 

(All are based on 2 BDR units)

My viewpoint is that Marriott is a superior system at a superior price. A much superior price. However, if you've got the money . . .


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## DazedandConfused (Nov 28, 2019)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> I will note that the MFs on 29,000 Marriott points run around $16,820 a year (@ $.58 a point). That would get 7 weeks in low season in Hawaii. In the highest season weeks Just under 5 weeks.
> 
> Seven weeks at Bay Club would run around $12,000, for any week other than 51, and 52; which is about 25% less.
> 
> ...



Marriott at $17,000 for 5 weeks = $3,400 per week = $486 per night and that does not include the price to buy (another $50,000 or so).

How is that better value than simply renting a home or condo on VRBO

$12,000 for 7 HGVC weeks = $1,714 per week = $245 per night which is good value for Hawaii, but I would NOT want to be on the Big Island for 7 weeks.


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## zerocylinders (Nov 28, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> 1) Balkanization. We own in NYC and would never use expensive NYC points outside of bHC, so that concern is moot to us. I have heard other NYC owners state the same conclusion. I don't think HGVC owners should be worried. We've never had problems trading into other HGVC using our club points as long as we do it early. However, we have not stayed at the Crane so understand your frustration.



I was actually making the opposite point.  It is virtually impossible for me to book NY or DC despite my elite premier status.  Of course NY or DC Hilton Club members can book anywhere.  That asymmetry is my point.  HGVC did that only because they needed to sell more HC units at a higher price; effectively using properties that I and others bought before as incentives to HC buyers who now have preferential terms over everyone else.  Of course I could "buy in" to Hilton Club, but I find it unfair and contrary to the whole point of belonging to a system like HGVC that I would have to "buy in" to Hilton Club to take advantage of these new properties, while the owners at HC can still book my properties without restriction.  You can already see that this direction is not great for anyone .. there are different preferences even among the different HC ownerships.  Consider how you might analyze the situation if there is new Hilton Club offering that excludes you altogether (but the new owners at that future HC property would still be able to use your property).  Why wouldn't HC do that, having already crossed the rubicon of exclusionary ownership offerings?



CalGalTraveler said:


> 2) & 3) We buy resale so ignore what HGVC sales says. Non-issue to us.



The fact that virtually everyone on this board has your view (only buy resale) should indicate that there is an issue and should still concern you.  Why is it that HGVC can't make an effective direct offering (as MVC and DVC are able to do) that is compelling?  Buying resale is not a panacea, it is a band-aid and a temporary one at that (HGVC can't survive if it can't offer a competitive direct offering; and all of us HGVC owners will suffer if HGVC ceases to be competitive in direct offerings).  That is putting aside the issue that there are some important benefits to elite levels (at least for me).



CalGalTraveler said:


> 4) Renting points. I like MVCs and Disney's approach. However I would be more likely to enroll our Vistana WKORVN deeded resale unit and rent out those associated points or rent from other MVC points owners rather than buying more points to rent out. As @DazedandConfused stated, this may be an outcome of owning too many points. Did you consider buying resale deeded MVC or Vistana weeks and then enrolling them later?



Two different issues here.

With respect to HGVC, the points we bought are clearly more than we need but they are all at properties we regularly visit.  In past years, I have been successful in renting out the weeks we are not using. I never broke even (versus maintenance fees) but I have always done better versus the cost of renting every year.  My complaint is that this is a huge hassle and the MVC and DVC systems are much superior, with a lot less friction when dealing with extra points/weeks.  The problem will be more significant now that we are moving to MVC though.

With respect to MVC, you should look at my posts over at the MVC forum.  In a nutshell though, I am actually getting a return from renting the points I am not using.  For example, disregarding the incentive points, in 2020 our total MFs for 29K points was only about 10K.  We rented out 24K points for nearly 15K, and we used the remaining 5K points for 2020 reservations.  Net result?  We were paid about $5,000 net of maintenance fees, and we still had 5,000 points to use.  And, it took me 3 days to rent my MVC points and collect the cash.  Try that with HGVC (and, if you know of some secret please share!).     To get these great economics, though, you do have to make a big investment in MVC, which is how we ended up with so many points.

[/QUOTE]



CalGalTraveler said:


> 5)  Locations: We are increasingly renting, using cash getaways, or trading timeshares in II or RCI when we cannot get HGVC (or our Vistana) rather than buying into another system. Therefore limited location not a problem. Cash rentals, trading, and hotel points give us the greatest flexibility at the lowest risk.



I could not disagree with this more.  I know there are others here (on the HGVC forum at least) who share your opinion.  I think that in general folks who have great schedule flexibility, travelling within the continental U.S. and Hawaii only, are traveling as a single or couple (not with a family), who have time to deal with a lot of hassle, and who don't mind off run down properties might enjoy using RCI and II.  Not us.  I have found RCI and II to be less than worthless.  We have had several trades on both systems, and every single trade on either system has been a disaster.  The properties on RCI and II that are not affiliated with HGVC/MVC/DVC are just not that great, or maybe the great properties are just not available.  We fled our first RCI trade in the middle of the first night it was so bad (that was an RCI Gold Resort); and we got bed bugs on our next trade through II.  To make matters worse, it is extremely rare that I can find ANYTHING that I would want on either RCI or II through normal searches.. I know that there are some good properties out there that are just never available, and I have tried standing searches to get those properties but the searches cost money and I have had those fail after 6 months without finding the properties I wanted.  After years of trying, I have not had one successful (in my view) trade with either II or RCI.  To each his own I guess, but I would rather just give up on timesharing altogether versus doing another II or RCI trade.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 28, 2019)

DazedandConfused said:


> Marriott at $17,000 for 5 weeks = $3,400 per week = $486 per night and that does not include the price to buy (another $50,000 or so).
> 
> How is that better value than simply renting a home or condo on VRBO
> 
> $12,000 for 7 HGVC weeks = $1,714 per week = $245 per night which is good value for Hawaii, but I would NOT want to be on the Big Island for 7 weeks.



Totally agree. One of my favourite rental sites is Maui Rental Group.

I can get Ocean front 2 bedroom for average 200 a night. Weekly rates are discounted.

I have booked a budget Garden view 1 bedroom for 135 a night with a great location.

How does that compare to 435 a night MF? Yes, I know it’s not a brand name but really...I go to Hawaii to be outdoors not in and can still cook and enjoy. All the units I have been in were spotless and furnishing were clean and presentable.

I do use Airbnb and others too with similar results.

Here’s just one example:


https://mauirental.com/product/kauhale-makai-535-2-bedroom-renovated-5th-992

And I can get it for less if I don’t care about Ocean View.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 28, 2019)

Years ago I had 9 timeshares. I used to pay over 10 k a year MF and these were not brand name places. I was regularly a victim of changing terms that reduced the value of my points. Oh, and those special assessments were painful. The BOD made it clear in their newsletters who the boss was. RCI jacked up their fees yearly without mercy. When I exchanged, I paid around 300 per exchange fee PER WEEK if I could even find an exchange available. In Hawaii, I got 4 to 5 weeks exchange at an average price of 11 k including fees.

Now I pay on average 7 k all in for 5 weeks. The 4 K I save covers airfare, car and spending money.

No contracts, no added fees, no hassle and NO commitment. I am now in the drivers seat versus the BOD or resort.

In my opinion, it just is the way to go.

Actually, I get a kick out of finding those rental gems at bargain prices too.  

I know Timeshare Users Group — timeshare owners. I am ready for my tongue lashing 

I do respect all of you on your vacation decisions. If timeshare is for you, do it. If it’s not, don’t. 






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## pianodinosaur (Nov 28, 2019)

I am at the HGVC Elite plus level and own two weeks with MVCI.  We have been with HGVC since 2001 and MCVI since 2011.  Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages.   The advantage of being in both systems is greater flexibility and exchange power than either system offers by itself.  Participating in both RCI and II has also given us more options.

We have stayed at The Crane via an RCI exchange and had excellent service despite a hurricane.  This was prior to the establishment of HGVC at The Crane.  I would like to know why the OP considers the Barbados property a joke.   We anticipate trips to the HGVC properties at Myrtle Beach and a Hilton Head in the near future.  A new HGVC resort is currently under construction in Los Cabos and Maui.  So, it seems that HGVC is making a concerted effort to expand its internal options.

We will spend 5 days in a Rome at The Hilton Cavalieri using HHONORS followed by a nine day Greek Island Cruise using HGVC points later this year.  We will have two timeshare exchanges prior to that via MCVI and II.   Not a bad way to start my retirement.


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## Finsadbel (Nov 28, 2019)

I do respect all of you on your vacation decisions. If timeshare is for you, do it. If it’s not, don’t. 






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Well put. When I saw the amount of points I had to look again. Everyone has their own way of vacationing and if you can buy 29,000 MVC points, then good for you!


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 28, 2019)

Finsadbel said:


> I do respect all of you on your vacation decisions. If timeshare is for you, do it. If it’s not, don’t.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well put. When I saw the amount of points I had to look again. Everyone has their own way of vacationing and if you can buy 29,000 MVC points, then good for you![/QUOTE]

Thank you. Even though I am not a fan of TS as, to me, the math doesn’t add up, I do respect those who choose TS. I am part of TUG not because of TS but because of the wonderful people here and sometimes capitalize on the bargain rental deals. Some of those deals are unbeatable. 


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## bizaro86 (Nov 28, 2019)

The part of this that I find offensive is that they haven't made good on a written contractual term. That isn't acceptable, imo, and I would keep escalating until they either agreed to reverse the deal or provide what was promised.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 29, 2019)

Both systems have pros and cons. While I agree the MVC rental program is frictionless. IMHO it carries risk in that MVC could levy a tax on those rentals similar to the $3 per point they now levy on DC point resale purchases. They also could devalue the trust. Too easy to play shell games without an underlying deed to a specific property.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 29, 2019)

We have 34,600 HGVC points; all of them that we bought resale.  We agree with the negative comments made here about HGVC sales staff and could add a few of our own.  The HGVC direct sales program is meant to maximize the money for HGVC and the sales staff not meet the customer's needs at the best price.  We have tried to negotiate to trade in properties with them at presentations to make our buying position more favorable to us, while still getting them a sale and making money, however, they have very strict rules which favor HGVC not the customer.  Therefore, for most of us on TUG resale is the only purchasing decision that is worth discussing.  

We have gone to a number of MVC presentations in the distant past and while we wouldn't have bought from the developer, we didn't buy resale either.  We have a desire to vacation in locations without a car and while Marriott has some very nice properties, until recently, they did not have any in locations that you could vacation comfortably without a car.  Vacationing without a car in urban areas has the benefits of not having to pay for the cost of the rent a car, parking, and gas, as well as  driving while intoxicated concerns if you party which we do.   In the past we were actually told at a MVC presentation that Marriott does not have what we are looking for.  I understand that has changed somewhat but we haven't gone to any MVC presentations recently.

With our HGVC points we have vacationed about 120 nights a year since 2009 at HGVC resorts without a car in Miami South Beach, Honolulu, Las Vegas and New York City with maintenance costs of about $6000/year.  That comes out to about $50/night  We have also exchanged thought RCI to stay in New Orleans, San Diego, and San Francisco without a car.  

To summarize, if I was going to evaluate these two timeshare systems I would focus on benefits and costs of resale purchases of points in the respective timeshare systems to conclude how good they are.   Evaluating the direct sales staff is an effort in evaluating how bad the timeshare systems are, and that is not fruitful.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Nov 29, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> Years ago I had 9 timeshares. I used to pay over 10 k a year MF and these were not brand name places. I was regularly a victim of changing terms that reduced the value of my points. Oh, and those special assessments were painful. The BOD made it clear in their newsletters who the boss was. RCI jacked up their fees yearly without mercy. When I exchanged, I paid around 300 per exchange fee PER WEEK if I could even find an exchange available. In Hawaii, I got 4 to 5 weeks exchange at an average price of 11 k including fees.
> 
> Now I pay on average 7 k all in for 5 weeks. The 4 K I save covers airfare, car and spending money.
> 
> ...



No tongue-lashing from me. That's a great deal. Do you know of any others like that? I own timeshares, but that doesn't stop me from bargain hunting.
Actually, my timeshares _are_ bargain hunting, as compared to owning a second home (which is why I own them, as a surrogate second home.)


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Nov 29, 2019)

DazedandConfused said:


> Marriott at $17,000 for 5 weeks = $3,400 per week = $486 per night and that does not include the price to buy (another $50,000 or so).
> 
> How is that better value than simply renting a home or condo on VRBO
> 
> $12,000 for 7 HGVC weeks = $1,714 per week = $245 per night which is good value for Hawaii, but I would NOT want to be on the Big Island for 7 weeks.



Each to their own taste. My point was to show relative value. You could use the cheaper Honolulu HGVC (same points) instead, or a mix.


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## DazedandConfused (Nov 29, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> We have 34,600 HGVC points; all of them that we bought resale.
> 
> Vacationing without a car in urban areas has the benefits of not having to pay for the cost of the rent a car, parking, and gas, as well as  driving while intoxicated concerns if you party which we do.
> 
> With our HGVC points we have vacationed about 120 nights a year since 2009 at HGVC resorts without a car in Miami South Beach, Honolulu, Las Vegas and New York City with maintenance costs of about $6000/year.  That comes out to about $50/night  We have also exchanged thought RCI to stay in New Orleans, San Diego, and San Francisco without a car.



Three very impressive statements!!!


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 29, 2019)

zerocylinders said:


> I was actually making the opposite point.  It is virtually impossible for me to book NY or DC despite my elite premier status.  Of course NY or DC Hilton Club members can book anywhere.  That asymmetry is my point.  HGVC did that only because they needed to sell more HC units at a higher price; effectively using properties that I and others bought before as incentives to HC buyers who now have preferential terms over everyone else.  Of course I could "buy in" to Hilton Club, but I find it unfair and contrary to the whole point of belonging to a system like HGVC that I would have to "buy in" to Hilton Club to take advantage of these new properties, while the owners at HC can still book my properties without restriction.  You can already see that this direction is not great for anyone .. there are different preferences even among the different HC ownerships.  Consider how you might analyze the situation if there is new Hilton Club offering that excludes you altogether (but the new owners at that future HC property would still be able to use your property).  Why wouldn't HC do that, having already crossed the rubicon of exclusionary ownership offerings?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I like your idea about renting points. My biggest reservation is that this is a game stacked in favor of the house. So IMHO it it safer to place small resale bets on windows of opportunities than bet big. I would rather play the stock market than bet big that timeshare providers won't close loopholes on points trusts where they have full control vs. deeds which are legally bound by a contract.  However you may have more money so perhaps the overall risk is small.

Our resale deeded holdings at HGV and Vistana give us deeply discounted vacations for premier units (OF Maui at the Westin, and NYC) during peak season.  We've traded our Vegas club points for Hawaii, Cabo and Italy for a fraction of the cost to rent. The minute the discount equation doesn't work we will bail and move on.

If a TS company implodes because of resale so be it. The investment was small and we have already received our ROI.  So we will continue to buy resale and place small bets. We may even pay a little money to enroll our Westin unit in the MVC points system so we can rent points - small bet. And pick up a free resale unit in Florida and enroll that in the points system for less than $5k.

*Resale is a small bet because you are 100% guaranteed not to lose money on money you haven't spent.*


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## JIMinNC (Nov 29, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> Totally agree. One of my favourite rental sites is Maui Rental Group.
> 
> I can get Ocean front 2 bedroom for average 200 a night. Weekly rates are discounted.
> 
> ...



All I would say is comparing a $200/night condo rental like the one linked to a brand name resort like MVC or HGVC is somewhat like comparing apples and oranges - most of those don't have the onsite amenities, super-pools, on-site food and beverage, etc. Marriott rents their units at Maui Ocean Club for well over $435/night - even a 1BR non-ocean view can easily top $700/night in high season. Even non-branded condos in Kaanapali such as the Kaanapali Alii and the Whaler aren't all that much cheaper than the Marriott rates. 

Obviously, if the benefits of a brand name or a prime location aren't important to you as you suggest, then it would be foolish to pay for those benefits if all you want is a clean place to sleep and eat. We choose MVC and HGVC because we want to stay in a nice place that is comparable in decor, furnishings, and amenities to the hotels we prefer. While we too spend most of our time in Hawaii outdoors doing things, we do want the time we spend at the resort to fully meet our expectations and preferences. 

There is no right answer, it's each person's preference, but my only point is the $200/night rentals are not the same thing as HGVC or MVC.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 29, 2019)

DazedandConfused said:


> Marriott at $17,000 for 5 weeks = $3,400 per week = $486 per night and that does not include the price to buy (another $50,000 or so).
> 
> How is that better value than simply renting a home or condo on VRBO



On Maui, Marriott's Maui Ocean Club rents from Marriott at well over $486/night in prime season. February 1BR units are currently showing $700+/night with no view. If you can even find a 2BR unit, it's likely going to be $900/night or more when taxes are included. While VRBO rentals can be found for much less, they will likely not be at resorts with MVC-level amenities (as I noted above). You can of course find other by-owner rentals at Marriott's Maui Ocean Club on Redweek and other timeshare-oriented rental sites, but then you have to deal with the risks, prepayment, and limited-to-no cancellation rights of person-to-person transactions. Some people are willing to do that to save some money; others are not. 

As I noted above, it depends on what your individual goals and preferences are.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 30, 2019)

Zerocylinders said:
Two different issues here.

_With respect to HGVC, the points we bought are clearly more than we need but they are all at properties we regularly visit. In past years, I have been successful in renting out the weeks we are not using. I never broke even (versus maintenance fees) but I have always done better versus the cost of renting every year. My complaint is that this is a huge hassle and the MVC and DVC systems are much superior, with a lot less friction when dealing with extra points/weeks. The problem will be more significant now that we are moving to MVC though.

With respect to MVC, you should look at my posts over at the MVC forum. In a nutshell though, I am actually getting a return from renting the points I am not using. For example, disregarding the incentive points, in 2020 our total MFs for 29K points was only about 10K. We rented out 24K points for nearly 15K, and we used the remaining 5K points for 2020 reservations. Net result? We were paid about $5,000 net of maintenance fees, and we still had 5,000 points to use. And, it took me 3 days to rent my MVC points and collect the cash. Try that with HGVC (and, if you know of some secret please share!). To get these great economics, though, you do have to make a big investment in MVC, which is how we ended up with so many points._

It seems that you have the rental of points and weeks as a significant reason for your ownership of the timeshares;  perhaps it is because you own too many points for your personal use.  While we were still working we had too many points so we rented some one bedroom weeks that we owned at our resort in Miami South Beach for about $2500/week during times when events were going on.  However, once we retired we can use all of our points so renting is not an issue.  I don't know the Marriott rental program so I can't comment on it.  I will not challenge that the Marriott Rental Program is superior to trying to rent HGVC weeks.  All I will say is that our experience with using the HGVC timeshare system has been great, and from what I learned about the Marriott timeshare system from presentations was not as attractive.


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## ski_sierra (Nov 30, 2019)

zerocylinders said:


> I thought it might be helpful to share our experiences and thinking, particularly the comparison between the two systems .  It is long because I am primarily writing this: (1) for someone considering buying into HGVC now, who might be interested in comparing HGVC to MVC; and (2) if anyone at HGVC cares to save their company and ends up reading this, for constructive criticism of a system that I used to really enjoy but now want to leave.




OP has provided an excellent perspective on both systems. What I enjoy about this discussion is prospective buyers can figure out if a particular system is a better fit for their needs.



Ralph Sir Edward said:


> My viewpoint is that Marriott is a superior system at a superior price. A much superior price. However, if you've got the money . . .




I have a 7000 points resale week with HGVC and have looked into MVC points as well. After studying both systems, I have come to the conclusion that MVC and HGVC systems are Pareto optimal options. That's why both have their own fanbases as opposed to Westgate or Diamond.

Marriott is a great system for those who can invest a signifcant amount as there are economies of scale. Based on zerocylinder's posts in the Marriott forum, he/she has spent over $100k in upfront cost for 29k MVC points. It represents a significant commitment since the purchase incurs $30-40k depreciation after rescission period due to MVC's resale policies.

I think MVC has figured out how to make their program more attractive to high income/net worth prospects. Their program is also designed to extract significant commitment from such people.

One can play into the HGVC cost effectively with an investment of only $6-10k. You don't need to make a big commitment and you don't see a signficant depreciation immediately. It does have all the limitations mentioned in the OP. HGVC follows unbundled approach with lots of fees - reservation fees, guest fees, points saving fees, etc. I believe all these fees are bundled in MVC in the program fee but resorts have higher MF.

If MVC points system was accessible cost-effectively to resale buyers, I'd have definitely bought MVC along with HGVC, as I see myself visiting locations in both systems. But as it stands, I'm unlikely to buy into MVC points system. MVC is not a good system for people like me who want to spend 1-2 weeks per year at MVC properties in 1 BR. HGVC works well for that use case but it doesn't have as many locations so I bought other timeshares as well.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 30, 2019)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> I will note that the MFs on 29,000 Marriott points run around $16,820 a year (@ $.58 a point). That would get 7 weeks in low season in Hawaii. In the highest season weeks Just under 5 weeks.
> 
> Seven weeks at Bay Club would run around $12,000, for any week other than 51, and 52; which is about 25% less.
> 
> ...



I must add the following:  Whole ownership is superior to timesharing at a superior price!  A much superior price.  If you've got the money, and some people do, go for it.


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## tombanjo (Nov 30, 2019)

I can certainly agree with some of your observations, and can see you have made a considerable investment in HGVC.  I'm sorry it has not paid off for you in terms of enjoyment. 

Now comes the "However" -



zerocylinders said:


> For example, owners at the “Hilton Club” in NY and DC have almost exclusive access to their own properties while they also get full access to my properties



The owners of bHC and HCNY have a different booking window, which is not really exclusive or almost exclusive access, and have the same access to other HGVC properties as any other owner has to properties outside their own portfolio. The adage of "Buy where you want to make sure you can book" is fully evident in NYC. I realize HGVC salespeople for Sunrise Lodge screwed you over, and, yes, that is a significant negative on their part. 

Right now, West 57th is in "Club" season for a date I wanted, and I booked a December Saturday night after a week or two of constantly searching. While I own there, I had the exact same chance as all other HGVC owners for that date. I used my West 57 points in this case, but my "cheap" points would have the same booking power if I had any in my account. 

While the "Home Resort" season does give an advantage to owners, owners pay for that in higher buy ins and cost per point in MF. And, I still need to compete with all other owners for bookings. I can't just log in and book what ever date I want.

If HGVC was less "balkanized", or more egalitarian, a week in silver season might be might be 25,000 points at West 57th where vegas mud season would still be 1000. Trying to bring the various properties of the HGVC menagerie into a single, uniform, platform is probably impossible due to the diverse deeds and contracts. Hilton Club New York is an complete outlier in the HGVC universe, and I see no practically way to bring it into the fold with out spending years to buy back all the deeds and re-swizzle them. 

Understanding the ins and outs of the system give people the ability to "arbitrage" properties, MF's and points to gain value. It is not straight forward, and certainly requires planning and research to get the value. 

A "pure" points based, with no home resort or week system has its advantages, and obviously MVC is the major player in the timeshare industry, but I still choose HGVC as I could see how it met my needs better than other systems.


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## hdins (Nov 30, 2019)

Thanks for everyone sharing in this post. One of the best discussions ever.


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## pianodinosaur (Nov 30, 2019)

Zerocylinders made an excellent point about the possibility of a substandard exchange outside the HGVC and MCVI networks.  I think that bad exchanges may be avoided by checking out the TUG Reviews prior to booking.  We currently have no intention of converting our MCVI weeks into points.   We have generally had a good experience with both II and RCI because of TUG Reviews.  Our next II exchange will be into the Hyatt near San Antonio.  I will let you know if it was OK when I write a review.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 1, 2019)

pianodinosaur said:


> Zerocylinders made an excellent point about the possibility of a substandard exchange outside the HGVC and MCVI networks.  I think that bad exchanges may be avoided by checking out the TUG Reviews prior to booking.  We currently have no intention of converting our MCVI weeks into points.   We have generally had a good experience with both II and RCI because of TUG Reviews.  Our next II exchange will be into the Hyatt near San Antonio.  I will let you know if it was OK when I write a review.



I agree with your thoughts here on some great RCI exchanges.  We don't own any II resorts so I can't comment on those.  We have exchanged through RCI with either our RCI or HGVC points for the following resorts that were great for their central city locations that you didn't need a car: Donatello in San Francisco, The Quarterhouse in New Orleans, Gas Lamp Suites in San Diego, Hilton Club in New York, the Galleon in Key West.  We have exchanged through RCI for these very nice resorts in less than urban locations where a car was needed to enjoy our stay: Smuggler's Notch in Vermont, Palm Beach Shores in Palm Beach Florida, In-Season Resort Pollard Brook in New Hampshire, Wyndham's Governor's Green in Williamsburg, Woodstone Massanutten, Lawai Beach Resort in Koloa Hawaii, Wyndham Kona Hawaiian Resort in Kona Hawaii, Ka'anapali Beach Club in Lahaina Hawaii, and Maui Lea in Kihei Hawaii.


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## GregT (Dec 1, 2019)

zerocylinders said:


> We have over 40,000 annual points in HGVC, including Barbados and Sunrise Lodge that were developer purchases (rest resale).  We recently decided to make a Marriott Vacation Club purchase because we anticipate a regular trip to St. Thomas where HGVC has no offerings.  We ended up with a 29,000 point annual package with MVC.  We have since made the decision to slowly unwind most of our HGVC ownership because of how superior MVC is.
> 
> I thought it might be helpful to share our experiences and thinking, particularly the comparison between the two systems (I know folks also love Disney, but the limited offerings there make that choice an apples to oranges comparison).  This is a long post, and represents years of experience over the past 9 years with HGVC.  It is long because I am primarily writing this: (1) for someone considering buying into HGVC now, who might be interested in comparing HGVC to MVC; and (2) if anyone at HGVC cares to save their company and ends up reading this, for constructive criticism of a system that I used to really enjoy but now want to leave.
> 
> ...



You will love the St. Thomas properties -- the Ritz Carlton STT is a favorite spot of ours and we love it almost as much as we love the Maui Ocean Club.   If it was easier to access from California, that might be our primary property.

You've had some very disappointing experiences with the HGVC commercial side and I can understand and agree with the frustration that you articulate.   HGVC developed a great point system (and great properties) and it is very regrettable that the sleaziness of the timeshare business has permeated HGVC.    You make an interesting observation about the downside of asset-lite development.  We tend to think only about the expansion of the network, without considering the downside.

Enjoy your MVC and whatever you retain from HGVC.   I hope we enjoy a Mai Tai together at MOC (or HHV) one day.

Best,

Greg


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## brp (Dec 2, 2019)

zerocylinders said:


> The fact that virtually everyone on this board has your view (only buy resale) should indicate that there is an issue and should still concern you.  Why is it that HGVC can't make an effective direct offering (as MVC and DVC are able to do) that is compelling?  Buying resale is not a panacea, it is a band-aid and a temporary one at that (HGVC can't survive if it can't offer a competitive direct offering; and all of us HGVC owners will suffer if HGVC ceases to be competitive in direct offerings).  That is putting aside the issue that there are some important benefits to elite levels (at least for me).



A lot of good discussion here and some very interesting points that you've made (even if they don't apply to us or reflect the way we use/want to use our HGVC- as others have said). I wanted to respond to this one in particular (the DVC side of things, because I see it differently from you. Can't speak to MVC, however.

I don't agree that DVC are actually able to make what I would consider an "effective direct offering" in a real sense. Their direct offerings are increasing in price at a good rate- as much or more than HGVC. The only reason that DVC may seem to offer a reasonable direct offering is that, contrary to any other timeshare system I've heard of, the resale prices for a number of properties are actually *increasing* over time. We own two DVC properties (Boardwalk and Beach Club Villas) that we bought about 10 years back (resale) and we would make 30-50% more than we paid. This is a timeshare industry aberration as far as I know and only makes the direct "seem" reasonable.

HGVC, like most, declines. I think that the direct are no worse than DVC. It's just that the resale comparison makes it appear so. And I don't see a reason to be concerned about a "buy resale" sentiment. These are all "used products anyway, so the direct versus resale product is identical (barring the Elite benefits which you value and most here do not). So where is the cause for concern?

Cheers.


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## SmithOp (Dec 3, 2019)

I am very happy with my single resale HGVC contract, and when I cant use the points I find it easy to rent them and make a small profit over maint fees.  I’ve owned for 19 years now.

Seems like someone drank the kool-aid buying 40k points from HGVC.  I dont see how elite benefits or renting will ever overcome the price you paid, it must be $200K or more.  The only lesson I see here is you got sold a pig in a poke.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 3, 2019)

SmithOp said:


> I am very happy with my single resale HGVC contract, and when I cant use the points I find it easy to rent them and make a small profit over maint fees.  I’ve owned for 19 years now.
> 
> Seems like someone drank the kool-aid buying 40k points from HGVC.  I dont see how elite benefits or renting will ever overcome the price you paid, it must be $200K or more.  The only lesson I see here is you got sold a pig in a poke.
> 
> ...



I believe I read that only 2 of the HGVC properties that zerocylinders bought were from the developer, the others were resale. I don't know the number of points breakdown between them.

However, using the flexibility of the HGVC system to maximum benefit I could see vacationing for 4-5 months with that many points without renting any points.  Therefore, looking at it from that perspective perhaps the HGVC 40,000 point purchases don't seem so bad at all.  We bought our 34,600 HGVC points to be able to use to vacation in warm climates for the entire winter.  We have been successful in doing that for 12 years, much of that at the Hilton Hawaiian Village.  How much would that cost per year if you needed to book a nice hotel room for that long?  

I don't know why zerocylinders bought that many timeshares, however, if they were bought with extensive vacationing in mind, perhaps the HGVC purchase was the best purchase ever made!


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## SmithOp (Dec 3, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> I believe I read that only 2 of the HGVC properties that zerocylinders bought were from the developer, the others were resale. I don't know the number of points breakdown between them.
> 
> However, using the flexibility of the HGVC system to maximum benefit I could see vacationing for 4-5 months with that many points without renting any points.  Therefore, looking at it from that perspective perhaps the HGVC 40,000 point purchases don't seem so bad at all.  We bought our 34,600 HGVC points to be able to use to vacation in warm climates for the entire winter.  We have been successful in doing that for 12 years, much of that at the Hilton Hawaiian Village.  How much would that cost per year if you needed to book a nice hotel room for that long?
> 
> I don't know why zerocylinders bought that many timeshares, however, if they were bought with extensive vacationing in mind, perhaps the HGVC purchase was the best purchase ever made!



The only resale mentioned was the orphan GPP.  He said he was lied to 3 times by HGVC sales for things that did not happen after closing.  He stated Sunset Lodge traded in for Barbados, which is so new the price tag must be astronomical.

I understand your situation, you worked the system to get elite, this guy got worked over by the system.


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## frank808 (Dec 3, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> I believe I read that only 2 of the HGVC properties that zerocylinders bought were from the developer, the others were resale. I don't know the number of points breakdown between them.
> 
> However, using the flexibility of the HGVC system to maximum benefit I could see vacationing for 4-5 months with that many points without renting any points.  Therefore, looking at it from that perspective perhaps the HGVC 40,000 point purchases don't seem so bad at all.  We bought our 34,600 HGVC points to be able to use to vacation in warm climates for the entire winter.  We have been successful in doing that for 12 years, much of that at the Hilton Hawaiian Village.  How much would that cost per year if you needed to book a nice hotel room for that long?
> 
> I don't know why zerocylinders bought that many timeshares, however, if they were bought with extensive vacationing in mind, perhaps the HGVC purchase was the best purchase ever made!


We own about 60k points and can't seem to make it last more than 35 days in Waikiki.  Those 2br units at Grand Islander sure eat up points   If we were to stay at lagoon 2br we might be able to get up to 60 nights.  But it sure is not easy trying to piece together a 30 night consecutive stay at lagoon.  

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 3, 2019)

SmithOp said:


> The only resale mentioned was the orphan GPP.  He said he was lied to 3 times by HGVC sales for things that did not happen after closing.  He stated Sunset Lodge traded in for Barbados, which is so new the price tag must be astronomical.
> 
> *I understand your situation, you worked the system to get elite, this guy got worked over by the system.*
> 
> ...



Well said. Sadly rather than maximizing what he owns it now looks like he may have gotten worked over by MVC unless he negotiated a deal to work the MVC system similar to some of the super MVCers.


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## frank808 (Dec 3, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Well said. Sadly rather than maximizing what he owns it now looks like he may have gotten worked over by MVC unless he negotiated a deal to work the MVC system similar to some of the super MVCers.


He got a great deal for points from a resale perspective.  He paid resale prices for and got same benefits as buying directly from developer.  This is from his posts on the Marriott forum.  To get this deal you are spending in excess of 6 figures so it is not for all.  It is the cheapest way to get into the Marriott DC points system nowadays.  He paid all in about 25% of the cost from developer.  So he got current resale prices but all the perks of buying from developer.

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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 3, 2019)

frank808 said:


> He got a great deal for points from a resale perspective.  He paid resale prices for and got same benefits as buying directly from developer.  This is from his posts on the Marriott forum.  To get this deal you are spending in excess of 6 figures so it is not for all.  It is the cheapest way to get into the Marriott DC points system nowadays.  He paid all in about 25% of the cost from developer.  So he got current resale prices but all the perks of buying from developer.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



It seems that to do well with MVC you either have to 1) go big with a special developer deal (6 figures, rent out your points per your note) or 2) go small (buy a resale week deed and enroll for points). It's the middle ground, regular developer deals that lose.

In HGVC you can win going small i.e. buy resale deeded week(s) for pennies on the dollar which enrolls automatically with points. *But there is no winning opportunity for going big with HGVC developer purchase.* Perhaps that's the core of the complaint we are hearing from the OP on this thread.


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## frank808 (Dec 3, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> It seems that to do well with MVC you either have to 1) go big with a special developer deal (6 figures, rent out your points per your note) or 2) go small (buy a resale week deed and enroll for points). It's the middle ground, regular developer deals that lose.
> 
> In HGVC you can win going small i.e. buy resale deeded week(s) for pennies on the dollar which enrolls automatically with points. *But there is no winning opportunity for going big with HGVC developer purchase.* Perhaps that's the core of the complaint we are hearing from the OP on this thread.


Right now marriott does not have a program for enrolling outside resale weeks into the trust.  That happens usually once or twice a year.  Purchase a minimum of 3000 trust points at around $12 a point ($36k new money) to enroll one external resale week. It does get cheaper when enrolling multiple weeks.  Last offer that ended in July was 5500 points to enroll up to 7 externally purchased resale weeks.   

Right now MVC sales has a hybrid package offer. You can buy one developer resale week and some trust points to get into the points program cheaper than making straight DC points purchase.  

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## zerocylinders (Dec 4, 2019)

Been busy with Thanksgiving travel so I am going to try to add some thoughts in one post to multiple points.  Sorry I didn't want to quote everyone who made excellent posts, but I thought these were good representatives...



JIMinNC said:


> All I would say is comparing a $200/night condo rental like the one linked to a brand name resort like MVC or HGVC is somewhat like comparing apples and oranges - most of those don't have the onsite amenities, super-pools, on-site food and beverage, etc. Marriott rents their units at Maui Ocean Club for well over $435/night - even a 1BR non-ocean view can easily top $700/night in high season. Even non-branded condos in Kaanapali such as the Kaanapali Alii and the Whaler aren't all that much cheaper than the Marriott rates.



Yes and this is also my issue with the RCI and II trades we have done over the past several years.  There is a glut of vacation condos, independent or regional timeshares, etc.   They show up as cheap rentals on VRBO, TUG and RCI/II.  We don't want to stay in those properties.  Not because we are snobs, but they don't offer the same experice: (a) they generally do not compete with HGVC in quality, cleanliness, furnishings, location,size and family activities; and (b) while studio and 1 bedrooms abound, there are very limited to no choices for larger units (2-4 bedroom units) in prime season at prime locations (which usually what we need, given family size and children in schools and college).  If we were in retirement now and traveling alone with no calendar to restrict us, RCI and II would be great (maybe).  In short, we view timesharing as an alternative to expensive resort properties like the Ritz or JW Marriott where 2-3 bedroom units go for 1,000-5,000 per night.  Even Doubletree (which prior to timesharing was our budget alternative) can easily run $800 a night for a 2 bedroom suite in a prime location during holiday season.  On VRBO we sometimes find a nice property, but it will still run $4K-10K per week.  HGVC (and MVC) provide better value if you compare apples to apples (IMHO).



brp said:


> I don't agree that DVC are actually able to make what I would consider an "effective direct offering" in a real sense. Their direct offerings are increasing in price at a good rate- as much or more than HGVC. The only reason that DVC may seem to offer a reasonable direct offering is that, contrary to any other timeshare system I've heard of, the resale prices for a number of properties are actually *increasing* over time. We own two DVC properties (Boardwalk and Beach Club Villas) that we bought about 10 years back (resale) and we would make 30-50% more than we paid. This is a timeshare industry aberration as far as I know and only makes the direct "seem" reasonable.



But isn't that an important point?  If you can buy direct, and resell for more than 50% of what you paid (or even better, make a profit) then it seems to me that DVC *has* made a compelling direct offering, albeit not a cheap one by any measure.  

My main reason for moving to MVC was a related but just as important point - the ability to easily resell points to recoup maintenance fees on unused points.  

Both "features" - DVC's high resale value, and MVC's freewheeling points rentals - provide an owner with the option value that is just not present in the HGVC system.

This is the exact question that initially got me thinking and ultimately convinced me to move to MVC: *why* is it that HGVC has such devastatingly poor resale, and almost as poor rental returns (at least in my experience, with only a couple of exceptions HGVC properties do not rent as well as they should IMHO)?  The answer to that question - in my opinion of course - are the points I started out with in this thread.  It may be that not everyone has a desire to resell or rent their HGVC units, but that lack of options, combined with the balkanized product offerings and sales oriented culture have (again in my opinion) caused the straights that HGVC now finds itself in.  To all of our detriment ultimately.

And if you think buying resale totally protects you, check out some of the other forums for systems that have failed, gone bankrupt, or been sold to private equity.  It is not so easy to exit after that and you are still paying maintenance fees forever, until you find someone who will take your unit (or you need to pay them to do so).  
[/QUOTE]



CalGalTraveler said:


> It seems that to do well with MVC you either have to 1) go big with a special developer deal (6 figures, rent out your points per your note) or 2) go small (buy a resale week deed and enroll for points). It's the middle ground, regular developer deals that lose.
> 
> In HGVC you can win going small i.e. buy resale deeded week(s) for pennies on the dollar which enrolls automatically with points. *But there is no winning opportunity for going big with HGVC developer purchase.* Perhaps that's the core of the complaint we are hearing from the OP on this thread.



Agree with that though it wasn't my main point it is an important point - someone who needs a lot of points would be better off in MVC.  There is clearly no advantage to going big with HGVC; in fact the system in many ways penalizes large owners (because of the restrictions on renting only the home week, and the inability to rent points, among other things).    You can accumulate those HGVC points on resales of course (we have), but you are still left with maintenance fees you can't easily recoup.  MVC makes dealing with this simple and economical.


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## zerocylinders (Dec 4, 2019)

One more ...



Tamaradarann said:


> I believe I read that only 2 of the HGVC properties that zerocylinders bought were from the developer, the others were resale. I don't know the number of points breakdown between them.
> 
> However, using the flexibility of the HGVC system to maximum benefit I could see vacationing for 4-5 months with that many points without renting any points.  Therefore, looking at it from that perspective perhaps the HGVC 40,000 point purchases don't seem so bad at all.  We bought our 34,600 HGVC points to be able to use to vacation in warm climates for the entire winter.  We have been successful in doing that for 12 years, much of that at the Hilton Hawaiian Village.  How much would that cost per year if you needed to book a nice hotel room for that long?
> 
> I don't know why zerocylinders bought that many timeshares, however, if they were bought with extensive vacationing in mind, perhaps the HGVC purchase was the best purchase ever made!



While not totally relevant to my overall point comparing MVC and HGVC, I do want to defend myself a little bit.  

First, we do utilize the points and travel extensively .. (1) Prior to 2020, we will have fully used our HGVC points and/or rented home weeks at break-even or profitable prices (Anderson Club and Sunrise Lodge during prime weeks both rent well); (2) Since purchasing my first HGVC unit (Sunrise), I have run an annual analysis comparing what we would have spent on a comparable apples to apples rental versus maintenance fees and always come out well ahead.  In some years we have had 10 weeks of vacation at prime locations in prime seasons.  That doesn't account for sunk costs in the original purchase we made at Sunrise of course.

Second, there was really only one really bad purchase decision on our part - our first developer purchase at Sunrise.  We bought many years ago at Sunrise when it was new and paid astronomical developer prices.  We found this site later, and started buying resales.   I did do an upgrade deal to get to elite status and received enough bonus points that we were able to vacation for 18 months without even touching my annual point allotment (which we rented those years at a nice profit).  The upgrade was not a terrible deal as far as developer deals go, especially when you consider the bonus points we received, and also lowered my maintenance fee / point cost at Sunrise.  The upgrade gave me elite status, which in turn enabled me to defer decision on whether to convert my excess points to HHonors until the actual Use year, which gave me extra months time to rent my other units when not used, including resale units we had acquired at that point (that is the main benefit of Elite for us).  Finally, we recently the 3 bedroom at Sunrise for Barbados was at a price comparable to resale (e.g., we did better than we would have if we had tried to sell the Sunrise unit resale, and purchase the Barbados unit resale) so it is hard to see that as a bad outcome (even though we did not get part of what was promised to us as far as GPP is concerned).  

The net of all this is that we have enjoyed HGVC and fully utilized our points in the past.  However, when it came time to looking for additional vacation opportunities, I felt like we had reached a limit with HGVC  where it just did not make sense to add any more properties (resale or direct), yet we wanted more options.  That led me to look at MVC.  We ignored MVC in the past because of its higher upfront cost and higher maintenance (same with DVC).  As many others have pointed out, an HGVC week is cheaper upfront, and generally cheaper on maintenance so it seemed like the right decision.  If I had known more about MVC, I probably still would have purchased the weeks at the two properties we actually use the most (Eagle's Nest and Bay Club Villas); but I would have spent the rest of my cash on MVC as it offers much greater flexibility, and that flexibility though at a higher price is worth it for a large points owner at least.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 4, 2019)

zerocylinders said:


> One more ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This post presents more even and more objective thoughts than the title of the thread you started:
*Why I am done with HGVC from an Elite Premier Member*

I believe that those of us here that are HGVC members appreciate the thoughts you most recently presented.


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## brp (Dec 4, 2019)

zerocylinders said:


> The net of all this is that we have enjoyed HGVC and fully utilized our points in the past.  However, when it came time to looking for additional vacation opportunities, I felt like we had reached a limit with HGVC  where it just did not make sense to add any more properties (resale or direct), yet we wanted more options.  That led me to look at MVC.  We ignored MVC in the past because of its higher upfront cost and higher maintenance (same with DVC).  As many others have pointed out, an HGVC week is cheaper upfront, and generally cheaper on maintenance so it seemed like the right decision.  If I had known more about MVC, I probably still would have purchased the weeks at the two properties we actually use the most (Eagle's Nest and Bay Club Villas); but I would have spent the rest of my cash on MVC as it offers much greater flexibility, and that flexibility though at a higher price is worth it for a large points owner at least.



This makes a lot of sense to me as well. I do find the flexibility of HGVC sufficient for our needs, but that's because they have properties in places we want to go. Others may certainly find this limiting. Within those locations, there is pretty much unlimited flexibility for what we want to do (owning in NYC is a big part of that and lacking that ownership would limit flexibility).

We have also looked (very cursorily) at MVC due to the increased flexibility of location, but initially balked at the apparent high price compared to HGVC. Of course, because the exploration was cursory, I was doing an apples to apples on what is really an apples to oranges. And I don't yet know anywhere near enough about the oranges...

At the moment we have some HGVC that we want to sell since we jut bought more to lower MF ratio. Until that happens, we won't be looking at anything else, but then may venture into other waters such as MVC, or even cheap trader points to use for exchanges. A friend is a true expert in this and has told us of the things that can be done with the cheap traders if one spends the time.

Cheers.


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## terces (Dec 4, 2019)

brp said:


> This makes a lot of sense to me as well. I do find the flexibility of HGVC sufficient for our needs, but that's because they have properties in places we want to go. Others may certainly find this limiting. Within those locations, there is pretty much unlimited flexibility for what we want to do (owning in NYC is a big part of that and lacking that ownership would limit flexibility).
> 
> We have also looked (very cursorily) at MVC due to the increased flexibility of location, but initially balked at the apparent high price compared to HGVC. Of course, because the exploration was cursory, I was doing an apples to apples on what is really an apples to oranges. And I don't yet know anywhere near enough about the oranges...
> 
> ...


We stumbled into a "cheaper trader" years ago when we bought a Mexican TS that trades in RCI.  The resort is Sandos (NOT Sandals) and we have 84,000 points that cost us only $199 per year, plus our RCI membership, so in other words these RCI points cost us almost nothing.  Where Sandos gets its pound of flesh is that they are a mandatory All-Inclusive resort, so to stay there would cost between $92 and $136 per day per person (and rising).  We do stay there once in a while, but tend to use our RCI points elsewhere for trades.  This is a 30 year RTU (Right to Use) TS as opposed to a deeded unit so we can basically dump it whenever we are done with it.  We paid retail which is not so good, but we have made it pay and feel it owes us nothing.  The benefit of owning this TS is that we are NEVER tempted to use our valuable HGVC points to book into what are usually much less luxurious RCI digs.  I'm not a fan of RCI due to their exorbitant booking fees, (often) low quality resorts, and inability to change or cancel, but we own this one and do use it.  As long as life doesn't get in our way and force us to cancel our reservations, it can give us some quite low cost holidays.


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## zerocylinders (Dec 5, 2019)

Tamaradarann said:


> This post presents more even and more objective thoughts than the title of the thread you started:
> *Why I am done with HGVC from an Elite Premier Member*
> 
> I believe that those of us here that are HGVC members appreciate the thoughts you most recently presented.



I still like my original title.  I don’t want it to be lost how disappointed I am with HGVC as an organization, and how I believe this will play out for HGVC in coming years (hint: not well).

You know, I don’t mind paying a local scuba dive shop a 200% markup on equipment I can buy cheaper online.  Why?  Because I want my local shop to be around next year, foster a community, create vacation opportunities I could not easily plan alone, and provide valuable advice for free.  If you lose that, you are buying cheap product from a company on its way to the bottom and can’t expect a relationship over time to last.  

It may work for a while, maybe a few more years, but I doubt it will last.  I would prefer to pay a premium to a company that treats its customers well and is in it for a long term relationship that works for everyone.  Resales are great, but I am looking beyond the bottom line in a particular purchase too.  My whole point here is that I think MVC gets that (based on my experience alone so far), DVC seems to get that as well, and HGVC is completely lost on that.   So I defend the title, even if my op may not not have expressed my sentiment perfectly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## brp (Dec 5, 2019)

zerocylinders said:


> My whole point here is that I think MVC gets that (based on my experience alone so far), DVC seems to get that as well, and HGVC is completely lost on that.



Interestingly, as decade-long owners of both HGVC and DVC I don't see a whole lot of difference in the experience. In fact, relative to HGVC, DVC have downgraded the resale purchase relative to the direct quite a bit more than HGVC, the latter only costing the Elite Benefits, which most feel not worth much. DVC has substantial penalties. As we are grandfathered resale purchasers, we have full rights there, but not so new purchases.

But really not a whole lot of difference in the rules and use model.

Also, from a DVC owners board I read, many there would say that same about DVC that you are saying here in describing the decline and why they want out. When one knows a program very well, it's easy to find the sore spots.

Cheers.


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## frank808 (Dec 5, 2019)

zerocylinders said:


> Resales are great, but I am looking beyond the bottom line in a particular purchase too.  My whole point here is that I think MVC gets that (based on my experience alone so far), DVC seems to get that as well, and HGVC is completely lost on that.   So I defend the title, even if my op may not not have expressed my sentiment perfectly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I agree with your points about how HGVC is.  By being an owner in HGVC, MVC (weeks and DC points) and DVC I will say that the 3 systems are more alike than different in the way they treat owners.  Have had great sales experiences and bad experiences from each company.  I have had great vacation customer service from all three systems.  In my opinion, being an owner all these years I would say that DVC used to treat resale ownership the best then HGVC.  Now I will say HGVC treats resale the best with DVC the worst.  To me it is sad to see how DVC used to be the leader in treatment of resale buyers to the worst (of HGVC, MVC and DVC).

The reason that DVC has such great resale value compared to everyone else is the age old saying of "location, location, location".  You can be near disney or even on property (Wyndham Bonnet Creek) but not like Bay Lake Tower.



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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 5, 2019)

I agree with @frank808 after staying at MVC and HGVC I believe they are more alike than different. Biggest difference is that MVC is more expensive.

MVC Resale also doesn't participate in points unless you pay their "tax" to enroll.  Sometimes they require at $10k plus purchase of trust points to do this. HGVC requires enrollment in points with the $599 fee upfront.

I have heard that Diamond will not deedback any unit that was bought resale, even if it was resale from an acquisition. This is draconian to me. MVC doesn't do this.


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## Tamaradarann (Dec 5, 2019)

zerocylinders said:


> I still like my original title.  I don’t want it to be lost how disappointed I am with HGVC as an organization, and how I believe this will play out for HGVC in coming years (hint: not well).
> 
> You know, I don’t mind paying a local scuba dive shop a 200% markup on equipment I can buy cheaper online.  Why?  Because I want my local shop to be around next year, foster a community, create vacation opportunities I could not easily plan alone, and provide valuable advice for free.  If you lose that, you are buying cheap product from a company on its way to the bottom and can’t expect a relationship over time to last.
> 
> ...



After your last posts brp, frank 808, and CalGalTraveler gave some objective thoughts about HGVC, MVC and DVC which you were able to effectively do in your previous post.  While I am an HGVC owner I am not totally pleased with HGVC.  I don't like how they continue to raise the price of the timeshares they sell even during the recent recession when whole properties in Florida and Las Vegas lost 50% of their value.  I don't like how they are raising "Open Season" rates.  I don't like they charge resort fees for RCI exchanges in Las Vegas and Orlando where there is so much competition in the timeshare industry and that perhaps exchangers will go to other properties rather than to the HGVC resorts.  I have expressed these specific thoughts here on TUG and to HGVC corporate officers.  However, while I am still an HGVC owner I am not done with HGVC.  I will continue to use the timeshares for the reasons that I bought them; to vacation a lot.  

By the way while not relevant to this thread, your comment about paying more to a local dive shop is also something we can disagree on.  We stay for many months in Waikiki.  With the high prices that many of the local stores charge if we didn't do most of our shopping in Sam's, Walmart, and Target instead of the local stores we couldn't afford to stay there that long.


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## DazedandConfused (Dec 7, 2019)

I own DVC and HGVC and like them both. I bought DVC both from Disney and via resale. I only bought HGVC via resale.

I use DVC exclusively for Disney and never trade out. 

I use HGVC for NYC (incredible bargain vs paying cash to hotels), las vegas, hawaii, etc. I also convert extra points to HHonors and use those whenever I need to.

Overall, I am pretty happy with both systems. My DVC contracts are way up in value and my HGVC are about the same.

I wish there were more HGVC locations.


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 8, 2019)

One thing HGVC could do to incent and reward developer purchases would be to allow developer purchases to rent/rent out club points similar to MVC.  Of course, I would like them to grandfather all the developer purchases, however I suspect that they would require upgrading to an elite level (where they don't need to rent the points), or an additional upgrade to enable participation in this market, but this would hobble the market to develop as you need many buyers and sellers of points to make this work.


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## brp (Dec 8, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> One thing HGVC could do to incent and reward developer purchases would be to allow developer purchases to rent/rent out club points similar to MVC.  Of course, I would like them to grandfather all the developer purchases, however I suspect that they would require upgrading to an elite level (where they don't need to rent the points), or an additional upgrade to enable participation in this market, but this would hobble the market to develop as you need many buyers and sellers of points to make this work.



My expectations, based on experiences with events much like this with DVC, is that:

 If they make any *reductions* for resale purchases going forward, they would grandfather current resale purchasers into those old rules. To take those away (even though their T&Cs likely allow this) would open them to too much scrutiny and possibly litigation.
 Resale purchasers beyond that point would, of course, not receive the benefit.
 Any new perks added for direct purchase *would not* be grandfathered to existing resale purchasers without some "qualifying" purchase, as you suggest. Simply no incentive to do this.

Cheers.


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## CalGalTraveler (Dec 8, 2019)

As someone who purchased HGVC developer for our first purchase, I agree with the OP that HGVC does little for the developer buyer. It's very transactional with little/no benefit if you buy more. Whereas MVC seems to have developed incentive programs to enroll/upgrade and continue the relationship such as point rentals market. I believe this is what the OP is referring to. The ability to rent out your points in a matter of minutes is a frictionless approach vs. the risk of being a landlord over the course of months to rent out your unit.  I believe DVC does this too.

I have heard that long-time MVC owners that have underwater MF to rental cost units have used their points to rent out points at a small premium. This prevents a flood of deedbacks/delinquencies. It enables the owner to get more out of that original purchase to recoup the cost vs. sitting on a boat anchor.

HGVC has given us zero incentive to buy anything further direct from them except to feel bitter about a developer purchase that rapidly lost a lot of value with few ways to recoup except to use it for expensive locations, and receive presentation goodies and discounted stays. *And now Open Season as an option to recoup value has died as reflected in another thread.  *I think this difference is what the OP was talking about.

I am sticking with HGVC because our resale helps us to get more value out of our developer unit but may transition and increase our position in MVC/Vistana in the future depending on HGVC actions.


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## TravelTime (Dec 8, 2019)

zerocylinders said:


> We have over 40,000 annual points in HGVC, including Barbados and Sunrise Lodge that were developer purchases (rest resale).  We recently decided to make a Marriott Vacation Club purchase because we anticipate a regular trip to St. Thomas where HGVC has no offerings.  We ended up with a 29,000 point annual package with MVC.  We have since made the decision to slowly unwind most of our HGVC ownership because of how superior MVC is.
> 
> I thought it might be helpful to share our experiences and thinking, particularly the comparison between the two systems (I know folks also love Disney, but the limited offerings there make that choice an apples to oranges comparison).  This is a long post, and represents years of experience over the past 9 years with HGVC.  It is long because I am primarily writing this: (1) for someone considering buying into HGVC now, who might be interested in comparing HGVC to MVC; and (2) if anyone at HGVC cares to save their company and ends up reading this, for constructive criticism of a system that I used to really enjoy but now want to leave.
> 
> ...



Where do you rent your unused MVC DPs?


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## JBLKY (Jan 22, 2020)

pianodinosaur said:


> I am at the HGVC Elite plus level and own two weeks with MVCI.  We have been with HGVC since 2001 and MCVI since 2011.  Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages.   The advantage of being in both systems is greater flexibility and exchange power than either system offers by itself.  Participating in both RCI and II has also given us more options.
> 
> We have stayed at The Crane via an RCI exchange and had excellent service despite a hurricane.  This was prior to the establishment of HGVC at The Crane.  I would like to know why the OP considers the Barbados property a joke.   We anticipate trips to the HGVC properties at Myrtle Beach and a Hilton Head in the near future.  A new HGVC resort is currently under construction in Los Cabos and Maui.  So, it seems that HGVC is making a concerted effort to expand its internal options.
> 
> We will spend 5 days in a Rome at The Hilton Cavalieri using HHONORS followed by a nine day Greek Island Cruise using HGVC points later this year.  We will have two timeshare exchanges prior to that via MCVI and II.   Not a bad way to start my retirement.


By any chance, are you on the Explorer of the Seas departing on August 30th?


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## pianodinosaur (Jan 25, 2020)

JBLKY said:


> By any chance, are you on the Explorer of the Seas departing on August 30th?




@JBLKY 

Yes


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