# [2010] So I am wondering



## Crohnos01 (Jun 1, 2010)

My wife and I just returned from Maui where we sat through a Wyndham presentation. We DIDN'T buy...which from what I am reading is a good thing. We did however sign up for one of their "Discovery" packages, which is basically a $1200 package for 154k points on one of the Wyndham resorts with the idea that if we commit the money goes towards the purchase price they presented of 13k dollars yada, yada, yada....

Anyway, after looking at this site, Redbook, and ebay, I am wondering if TS ownership is a good idea at any price? The maintenance fees cited during our presentation were about $30 a month, but what I am seeing is maintenance fees on properties that range from $700 to $1500 a year.... Something I am sure our purchase would raise to if we were to sign on the dotted line. And that doesn't include the "special assesments" I read about here and there on this site....

So my question is; why buy? I just spent a week on Maui in a really nice condo at the Kaanapali shores resort for $2100.00 including airfare and a rental car..... Granted this was a great price, but if it can be done once, it can probably be done again.... Or am I missing something?


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## Patri (Jun 1, 2010)

You are very sharp. For many people a timeshare does not make sense and many owners are getting rid of theirs, preferring to rent. If you can pick up a resale at a location you want to go at the time you want to go, grab it. These days many units are free or very low cost. Evaluate if the maintenance fee, or added exchange membership and trade fees, are worth it for your travel budget. It is never worth the money to buy from the developer.
Enjoy the trip or two you get with those points. Take your time to make any permanent decison.
Welcome to TUG. Read, read, read here and I think we will be able to give you good advice as more questions pop up.


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## Crohnos01 (Jun 1, 2010)

Well thanks for the compliment about being sharp. However if the the truth were told, I am actually probably more poor than sharp. I have 4 kids, one of whom is getting married next month. The other 3 are in college and we have a car that needs to be replaced. With all that, the finances just didn't pencil out for us. Wyndhams presentation was very compelling and if I were a man of means, I probably would have signed up... As it is, it looks like being poor in this case was an advantage. (Ok, so I am not exactly poor.... according to the government, I am rich..... although when I look at my bank statement, they must be reading something I am not....)

The one thing I thought that a TS might do is force us to plan a vacation. If you are getting monthly or annual reminders in the form of maintenance fees, it probably prods you to plan something I am guessing. The trip I mentioned was our silver wedding anniversary trip and the first trip we have taken as a couple without kids in all those years.... I would like to change that pattern a bit, but obviously with my financial committments, it is going to have to be modest cost vacation. Perhaps I would be better off just renting from some of you folks?

The really funny thing I found out last night while discussing our vacation with my mother-in-law is that apparently my wife and I are destined to be TS owners eventually. I mentioned the TS presentation and she said "oh yeah.... I have one of those myself with Vacations International or something like that.... Eventually when I die, you guys are going to inherit it...."

Whooo-boy........

So another question I had when looking at some of the ads on Ebay was how come some of them are advertised for $1 and have literally no bids and others are a couple of thousand bucks with 17 bids? They seem to read the same to me, yet everyone bids on one but not the other and they were all in Hawaii.... is there some "gotcha" that you should definitely not bid on when looking at a listing?

Anyway, thanks for all the advice and this site has been a HUGE help in getting me up and understanding at least a little what TS are all about.


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## scrapngen (Jun 1, 2010)

You have lots of time to do some research before deciding if a TS is right for you. Right now you have a "Discovery" package with Wyndham that you can use for your next trip. Wyndham has some nice properties and people who own are fairly happy - IF - they bought resale. Because as you've seen, you can buy Wyndham resale for pennies on ebay. 

You ask why the disparities in prices on ebay for HI timeshares. In a nutshell,  there are several different developers and smaller properties - some properties actually have a higher resale value due to location (oceanview, etc.) or how well they are maintained/managed. The Marriotts/Westins/Hiltons are more upscale and in general have a higher resale rate, still much less than the current developer pricing. 

In general, maintenance fees in HI are pretty expensive and it only makes sense to own there if you intend to visit every year or every other year. Otherwise there are various systems and/or using exchange companies that will make it more cost effective if you choose to do most of your vacationing closer to home - driving distance - with the occasional longer trip. 

TUG is a great resource whether renting or deciding on a purchase. The resort reviews section available to members can help when choosing places to visit.  If the possibility of owning a TS still interests you after staying at a few places, continue to do your due diligence before taking the plunge. Right now it is probably more cost effective to rent rather than purchase, especially if you don't really know what you want or how to choose from all that is available. You have plenty of time to research and ask questions - lots of people here will be glad to answer!  It is easy to buy, not so easy to get rid of. All that being said, there are many advantages to owning as evidenced by the -mostly- happy TS owners on this site. 

As you said, some people like the fact that owning a TS "forces" one to take vacations, and stay in much better accommodations than would otherwise be possible. You said you have college age children...many people like the fact that it is easier to travel with a family/extended family due to the larger floor space and kitchen that you can't get in a hotel. Traveling with 8 people in a 2 bedroom TS is cheaper and more comfortable than two cramped hotel rooms. (!)

Anyway, you've come to the right place - Welcome!


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## Passepartout (Jun 1, 2010)

Welcome Crohnos01. The good news, you found TUG before you spent a pile of money on something you can get for a lot less. T/S are a great way to force  you to get away. You also found that in many instances you can rent and get specials for less than MF's. This is more true in places like Hawaii and Florida that are overbuilt with T/S and have expensive MF's. Less so where demand exceeds supply and MF's are more reasonable. Hurricane damage and high occupancy rates cause the high MF's. 

The collective wisdom of TUG is to look at resales of TS that you can drive to and that you would want to use yourself about half the time.  Don't buy to exchange, and if you buy where you have to fly to- no matter how nice they are, the airfare is a cost of use that you can't control.

Read a bit around TUG. Especially the newbies section. Check the marketplace. The last minute rentals at $100/nite or less are a great bargain if you can get away on short notice. These rentals are in many cases less than the unit's MF.

Get the details on your MIL's TS. Reading TUG wll help you- and her- get the most out of her ownership. And again, Welcome!

Jim Ricks


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## Crohnos01 (Jun 1, 2010)

Wow.. Thanks everyone for all the great advice. I will definitely check things out closer before plopping down bucks for a TS.... I get how traveling with a family would make a TS more attractive....been there, done that! With 4 kids in swimming, we would travel around and always have to look for a cheaper hotel and get at least two rooms which still didn't work very well and were a real pain... Now that it's just the two of us, that isn't so much a consideration, but we are a pretty tight family and we are already discussing taking another big family trip with all the kids, my SIL to be, my MIL, and who knows, maybe a boyfriend/girlfriend thrown in the mix. Of course the nice thing about having grown children is that I can offer to pay for the accomodations and let them pay their own airfare. In fact, we are thinking about taking a another trip to the islands even if we have to pay a few more bucks for the extra points to stay to extend the stay to a two week time frame. The wife and I can stay there for the entire time and the kids can fly in and out as school/work allows and/or requires..... There has to be some up side to getting old! 

Anyway, thanks for all the advice.... I will keep reading and will no doubt have more questions. Thanks again everyone!


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## bookworm (Jun 1, 2010)

Timeshares are _made_ for big family trips. If you like the Wyndham resorts and they are good locations for you, this is a great system to own. You can get bigger units simply by using more points, rather than trying to exchange and hoping you get what you need. (There are other timeshare systems like this too - you'll need to read up on the different options.) What I would recommend now is renting since many people are renting their points for very reasonable amounts. It almost doesn't pay to own at the moment, though you do have a bit more freedom to manage your vacations, make cancellations, etc., if you own. You can find renters here in the TUG marketplace and MANY Wyndham renters over on www.wyndhamowners.org. There is a lot of other info on Wyndham including a Primer on that site as well.


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## deedman (Jun 1, 2010)

here is an example where buying a TS can be more beneficial then renting. Lets say you had 154k wyndham points at an annual MF of $900 (which if you do some looking around you can actually get for less.)  Lets say you book internally for 105k points for a 1br week, and then booked 2 more 1br weeks at 28k a piece thru rci.  You would have to rent 7k points for $70, you would need an extra res. fee for $30, 2 rci trans. fees at $189 ($179 if they aren't international) a piece, and additional housekeeping credits at ~$80.  Thats 21 days of vacation at $1458, which comes out to around $70 a night.  Now if you can get your desired vacations for less than or around $500 for the week, then renting is the better option, but if you consider you can get 2br wyndham kona units for the 28k or any other trades people have been lucky to get with 28k trades, then in my mind it doesn't make sense to rent, even if you have to add another $40-$80 for housekeeping credits its a no-brainer.  Remember, math is your friend.


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## ronandjoan (Jun 1, 2010)

Amen to all of that Deedman.

Obviously, since we are timesharing full time, we have found math helps, even if sometimes we might book a week for more than usual - like an upgraded bonus week at a 2 BD Grand Mayan from SFX for $579.

but, look what that is!  a large gorgeous unit in a gorgeous setting...what would the retail cost of that be per night?


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## Timeshare Von (Jun 2, 2010)

I too am in the camp that yes, Wyndham is a good system, but only if you buy resale.  I own a mix of Wyndham fixed weeks and points currently, although I recently deeded back a Wyndham fixed week in Flagstaff because our travel patterns and interests are changing a bit.

I'm suspect of their $30/month in MF's ($360/year seems impossible at Wyndham for a points package capable of doing much for you).  I'm paying $500 for a 77k pts contract, admittedly at one of the highest resorts in their system.  The 77k however, will not get me into much of anything, mostly studios and 1BRs in off season.  So far for the places we have wanted to stay since acquiring the contract, we've had to either add points (renting from someone which is no longer allowed . . . ony renting points from Wyndham is permitted today) . . . or settling for less than a week.

The points have worked for us so far however, and the fixed weeks have gotten us some outstanding "internal trades" with RCI (those would be "Wyndham to Wyndham exchanges) into Hawaii.  Most recently, my 1BR in Williamsburgs got me a 2BR on the Big Island of Hawaii.  Sweet!  MF would approximate out to $275-$300, so an outstanding deal!

There are a lot of Wyndham pros here, as well as on another forum that is exclusively for Wyndham.  For now, however, you should be able to get all of your questions and concerns addressed here in TUG.

Welcome!

Von


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## bookworm (Jun 2, 2010)

Yes, the RCI trades are a big plus to ownership. We have made good use of them ourselves. However, it takes some time to learn how to get something good in the RCI system, in my opinion. It is important to realize that there is a learning curve. If people are willing to study it, ownership makes good sense.


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## Conan (Jun 2, 2010)

Probably the salesperson didn't even mention "maintenance" which is the most important item in deciding whether to buy a particular timeshare or any timeshare.  Maintenance is the yearly cost to maintain your home resort - - the one you buy a deeded week to -- and it will range from around $500 to $1200 depending on the property, unit size, location, etc.  And if maintenance is too low or something like a hurricane hits your property there's also the chance of a special assessment, maybe $2,000 or so every once in a while.

So ignoring the purchase price (which on Ebay can be next to nothing), maintenance means you'll be paying around $75 to $150 per night or one-seventh of the year's maintenance (plus exchange fee if you're exchanging in RCI or other exchange companies) for each of the seven nights per year of your ownership.

[By the way, one benefit of Wyndham is you can stretch one week's points into two or more weeks vacation if you can find something that works for you in RCI Weeks, which is where the exchange fee comes in.]

So the value of timeshare (besides as you note being forced to vacation each year) is the ability to stay in a condo-type property at those prices.


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## mtforeman (Jun 4, 2010)

Hi!  I was looking into Wyndham points on ebay for quite some time.  If you were noticing that some have a $1 bid and never sell while others sell for $1700 (or whatever), the reason is the maintenance fee per thousand points.

In the Wyndham system, there are no standard maintenance fees.  Depending on what your home resort is, you pay whatever maintenance fee that resort charges.  So, for example, one resort might charge $4 per thousand points (or less).  Another resort might charge almost $7 per thousand points.  To figure that out you just divide the maintenance fees by how many thousand points are offered.

I believe the ones in FL, furthermore, have a separate charge for property tax, whereas other states include that in the maintenance fees.

So....  Wyndham properties with $4 (little more or *gasp* little less) will sell for more on Ebay.  Those with $5.50-$7 will sell for next to nothing.  This is because the purchaser can get many more points per year with the same maintenance fee if they buy from the resorts with lower MF's...which is the true cost of ownership, really, when buying from Ebay...

One other reason may be that there is an early booking bonus at a home resort, so home resorts that are in HIGH demand like Myrtle Beach sometimes sell for a bit more, even if their maintenance fees are a bit higher...

Of course, after months of looking into Wyndham, we ended up buying a fixed week anyway.  It is all about what is best for you and your family, and each is different.  We can never get more than 1 week a year of vacation, and we decided to find something that was large, within driving distance.


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## GregT (Jun 4, 2010)

Crohnos,

Welcome to TUG!

Other posters have accurately shown the advantages and disadvantages of timesharing.  There are two intangibles that I want to add:  

1) it "forces" you to take a vacation.  Personally, because of work, I wasn't that good at taking vacations and we took max 1 week per year of vacation.  Timeshares put in place a vehicle and incentive to plan a vacation.

2) the memories -- consistent with #1, I have a load of happy memories with my family that are invaluable and the entire family gets really excited for our annual vacation to Maui.  This is a tradition that I hope holds for many many many years.

I bought my Wyndham 112K Every Other Year package on eBay for about $200.  It has the lowest MFs in the Wyndham system (about $22/month).  This allows my wife and I to go to St. Thomas every other year, a place that we visited once, and that I vowed to go back to (and now we are!)

Good luck to you -- and don't buy direct!

All the best,

Greg


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## Crohnos01 (Jun 5, 2010)

So, if I am understanding all of the posts correctly, basically the formula for deciding if a TS works vs. renting includes the number of times you plan on using it per year.... The more frequently you vacation, the less it "costs" per vacation hour used....makes sense....

Also, it seems if I am reading all this correctly, that when you purchase a TS, your "home resort" should be the one you want to spend the most time at vs. having to deal with exchanges which sound like they can get messy...

So, on further inspection, the property that Wyndham was(is) offering for sale in Princeville is actually 2 miles from the beach. I believe I would like to purchase a TS in Hawaii, but I really want beach front access....2 miles is too far to walk and it was really nice to slip on the ole flip-flops, walk past the pool, and out onto the beach for a nice sunset walk while we were at the Kaanapali Shores in Maui.....

So, am I correct in my above understandings?

Thanks again everyone... this is a great way to get educated!

Dwight Gray


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## deedman (Jun 5, 2010)

When you purchase Wyndham Points, you can book at any of the wyndham resorts (all done internally, no exchanging) at 10 months out, and your home resort you can book it 13 months out. Check out this link for all the properties and how many points it costs to stay there.

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/memberdirectory0910/


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## ronandjoan (Jun 9, 2010)

GregT said:


> 1) it "forces" you to take a vacation.  Personally, because of work, I wasn't that good at taking vacations and we took max 1 week per year of vacation.  Timeshares put in place a vehicle and incentive to plan a vacation.
> 
> 2) the memories -- consistent with #1, I have a load of happy memories with my family that are invaluable and the entire family gets really excited for our annual vacation to Maui.  This is a tradition that I hope holds for many many many years.
> 
> Greg


I wish so much that we had done this years ago so we could have shared a real vacation and memories with our children... in the first 20 years of our marriage we finally took a real vacation....although we did visit relatives on it - -- on ALL the other so called "vacations" until then,  we had driven as fast as possible to DH's relatives and then racing back just in time to arrive for work at 7 a.m. Monday morning....- this time, we did spend time driving slowly back home and it was so relaxing and enjoyable.

Then, 15 years later, we pruchased our first timeshare and then found out what real vacationing was all about.


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## jebloomquist (Sep 9, 2012)

*Weeks vs Points*



Crohnos01 said:


> So another question I had when looking at some of the ads on Ebay was how come some of them are advertised for $1 and have literally no bids and others are a couple of thousand bucks with 17 bids? They seem to read the same to me, yet everyone bids on one but not the other and they were all in Hawaii.... is there some "gotcha" that you should definitely not bid on when looking at a listing?



My experience is that the first cut between types of ebay auctions is whether the sale is for a weeks vs a points property. The weeks ones frequently get no bids if there are any additional charges for closing and transfer. People usually want points properties, Ron is the exception. Almost always point auctions get bidders. So the second cut is between the added charges and then thirdly, the mf/1000.

One may argue the order of my second and third cuts. Whichever you prefer ahead of the other, added charges or mf/1000, they fall behind the weeks vs points distinction in determining desirability.

Check to see if most of the auctions that get no bidders are Wyndham weeks properties.


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## Cheryl20772 (Sep 9, 2012)

Crohnos01 said:


> The really funny thing I found out last night while discussing our vacation with my mother-in-law is that apparently my wife and I are destined to be TS owners eventually. I mentioned the TS presentation and she said "oh yeah.... I have one of those myself with Vacations International or something like that.... Eventually when I die, you guys are going to inherit it...."
> 
> Whooo-boy........


It's good to have this info to bear in mind while planning your own ownership and you may be able to help her after you learn more about timeshares.  Also keep in mind that no one has to accept a complete inheritance.  It's possible to decline or disclaim only the timeshare if you don't want it and keep the part that you want.

Welcome to TUG!


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## DeniseM (Oct 1, 2012)

Please note that this question was asked in May *2010*.  Whenever you use the search function, please note the date of any posts that you pull up.


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