# Back Again, Still Confused About the Point of Points



## OldPantry (Apr 14, 2018)

I've been mum for the past few years. Still enjoying our Marriott weeks, still steadfastly refusing to buy points, still grumbling about the steady increase in maintenance fees. We have the equivalent of three weeks (two even-year Ko Olinas - don't ask, I'm stupid -, one Tahoe and one Newport). Everything is platinum (summer for the California resorts), with mountain views for Ko Olina. That works out to five possible weeks per year, with lock-offs. Three of our weeks were bought on the resale market, and would probably be salable at break-even. The first Ko Olina EOY would generate a $15,000 loss, once sold on the Redweek market. 

One of my favorite pastimes is to figure out the "real" cost of a stay for us. By that I mean what it costs, per night, once all the variables are included. This is an iffy business, but I think it's worth adding it all up, and then comparing things with the open market (what Marriott would charge us if we weren't owners at all).

So, honesty requires, off the top, a charge for that $15000 loss we will realize for the initial up-front "investment" with Marriott. We won't ever see that money again. So, arbitrarily, I'm writing it off over 30 years, as we've already enjoyed the EOY for fifteen). Call it $500 per year.

We have about $42,000 invested in all our timeshares (including the EOY stinker). To me, it's essential to recognize that there is a real cost in having this money sitting out there. If I had it to invest, I'd easily get 5% with a corporate bond. So, there's an additional cost of $2100 yearly in lost income. Add in maintenance fees of $2350 for the Ko Olinas EOYs, $1500 for Tahoe (with state taxes) and $1400 for Newport (also with taxes), and the total yearly is $7850. Assuming I don't lock anything off (our recent pattern), the cost per night then becomes $373 per night for the 21 yearly nights. (It would drop quite a bit if we locked off, but the accommodations would be correspondingly less enticing).

So, how does that stack up against renting from Marriott? Well, quite well indeed. I just priced 2BR's at Ko Olina, Newport and Tahoe for platinum, but non-peak weeks. Availability for 2BR's at Ko Olina is spotty, but usually runs between $800 and 1000 per night. Newport is often far cheaper, but can rise to $900. Tahoe summers top out around $500 per night. 

Bottom line, we're paying about 1/2 the price we would on the open market, substantially better when visiting Hawaii. As we have had considerable success in trading Newport and Tahoe for Hawaii, we think we're doing very well indeed.

Now, a newbie could do better than we have on the resale front. Good two-bedroom weeks go for $7,000-9500 on Redweek. So someone might sneak in closer to $350/night (more for Ko Olina, less for Newport and Tahoe). 

What leaves me absolutely befuddled is why anyone would buy points. At $13.74 per point, with maintenance fees of $.53 per point, and knowing that you'd need a minimum of 4000 points to snag any kid of decent week for any kind of 2BR, the cost analysis is chilling:

4000 points at $13.74 ($54960). With points reselling at a meager $4, the potential capital loss will be $38960, capitalized over 15 years - I suspect most folks don't last that long) = $2597 per year.
Maintenance fees: $2120
Lost income (5%): 2748

That's a total of $7465 per year, per week, or a bit over $1050 per night. Now I just checked: I could rent a 2 bedroom mountain view villa at Ko Olina over Christmas this year for $1062 per night. That would require 4800 points, so the do-it-with-points equivalent would be $8968 ($1280 per night).

Now, of course, Marriott usually tosses in some incentives to purchase. They end up being something like a free week, or a discount on longer stays. So, you can regard them as a discount on the total outlay. Still, the money is spent, the lost income is still a cost and the lost principal is still a cost. So, the nightly cost going forward is basically unchanged. 

The most frequent argument I see in favor of points is flexibility. The second is priority in access to high demand weeks. I get that. Still, how can points be more flexible than simply booking with Marriott directly? As to availability in peak weeks, my understanding is that points priority is not absolute. You can still be refused a particular week at a particular resort. And, for my three resorts, prime weeks were available at all three resorts via direct booking. Expensively, of course. But, considering how very expensive points are (at least the new ones Marriott is now selling), not ridiculously so. 

I'd welcome a response from some folks with multiple weeks via points. Using a similar approach to mine, accounting for lost income on the money invested, writing off lost principal once points are sold, and factoring in yearly maintenance fees, what are your nightly costs? In light of that result, are you happy with the value received?


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## TheTimeTraveler (Apr 14, 2018)

Clearly points aren't for everyone, and if you're happy with you weeks then stick with the weeks.

If you bought prior to June 2010 then you can convert your weeks to points and utilize point usage as an alternative to traditional week use.

There are no questions about it;  points are more expensive than traditional weeks.




.


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## icydog (Apr 14, 2018)

I have had considerable success using my DC points since I am Chairmans Club and I can reserve at 13 months. I know it is more money for my points than my weeks but the flexibility works for me. I did like your analysis though.


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## vacationtime1 (Apr 14, 2018)

I like OP's financial analysis a lot.  Few owners really consider the capital cost and the capital depreciation, which as OP shows, is the biggest single cost item.  To pay $40,000 for a TS and to then say that the cost of the TS is only the annual fee is to ignore the $40,000.

However, the rental cost of a TS for comparison purposes is not the retail price charged by Marriott.  When you rent from Marriott, you may rent any number of nights starting any day of the week and may cancel at pretty much any time.  When you own a TS, you get exactly seven days starting Fri/Sat/Sun once a year and you cannot change dates easily once reserved.  The better price comparison is renting a TS week on Redweek or TUG Marketplace; a two bedroom island view at Ko Olina rents for about $3,500.  Of course, that makes the economics of ownership even worse.


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## davidvel (Apr 14, 2018)

Generally a good analysis. Locking off enrolled weeks and trading back to 2BRs or 1BRS with studio brings the nightly rate down to about $150-200 for me. 

People will always point to flexibility, but there are few scenarios utilizing full weeks or weekends that DC points (even at $6-7 resale) make even remote sense financially. JiminMC will point out some good utilization for certain specialized event days in certain golf locations, but if you are prone to using a full way, resale weeks are still the way to go imo. 

The only way to really know is to look at the exact week/days, how many DC points it takes, then see if that's worth it compared to other ways to rent. Everything else is just platitudes.


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## VacationForever (Apr 14, 2018)

For starters, very few pay full rate for MVC's points.  Marriott sells hybrid packages, which makes up of a week and somewhat equivalent points of that week, after skim of course.  That typically brings cost of the total points down to about $7 per point.  You can also buy resale and pay junk fees, with the total cost of about $6 per point.  

We bought a hybrid package end of last year and we are starting to check their reservation system to see what we can get.  We are at Presidential level and it really isn't all that bad if we book at 60 days out for where we want to go to.  We are never peak season folks, preferring to travel in the shoulder season.  We also don't see booking Hawaii using points it costs too many points.

One example where points conversion for our weeks actually work better for us.  We own 2 weeks at Desert Springs I red season and we really have no interest in staying in the studio side even though it is nice and pretty luxurious - walk in shower, fireplace etc.  For each week, we can actually book 2 weeks of 1BR in off peak season and still get some points back. BTW, off peak season is not hot summer to us. Instead it is end of the year to January where weather is mild in Palm Desert.

When we bought, the attraction was getting immediate Platinum level for Marriott Rewards.  The other thing is we do want the flexibility and want to avoid paying II exchange fees as much as possible.  Unless the Monday announcement screws MR Platinum level big time, we believe we made a right decision. 

Is there ROI for us? No.  Do we get better location assignment at Marriott resorts and Marriott/SPG hotels?  You betcha.  Can we put a $ to that?  No.  If one can afford it, why not?


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## TravelTime (Apr 14, 2018)

OldPantry said:


> I've been mum for the past few years. Still enjoying our Marriott weeks, still steadfastly refusing to buy points, still grumbling about the steady increase in maintenance fees. We have the equivalent of three weeks (two even-year Ko Olinas - don't ask, I'm stupid -, one Tahoe and one Newport). Everything is platinum (summer for the California resorts), with mountain views for Ko Olina. That works out to five possible weeks per year, with lock-offs. Three of our weeks were bought on the resale market, and would probably be salable at break-even. The first Ko Olina EOY would generate a $15,000 loss, once sold on the Redweek market.
> 
> One of my favorite pastimes is to figure out the "real" cost of a stay for us. By that I mean what it costs, per night, once all the variables are included. This is an iffy business, but I think it's worth adding it all up, and then comparing things with the open market (what Marriott would charge us if we weren't owners at all).
> 
> ...



I absolutely hate when people get all OCD about their timeshares. A timeshare is not an investment. You are posting here for reassurance but you need to live with uncertainty. You should only buy a timeshare if you love the location and want to visit it again and again or if you are willing to gamble with an exchange company. You can easily rent though TUG, Redweek, VRBO and other websites for just a little above maintenance fees so there is no need to buy. It seems like all the time, I see a post like this from a nervous timeshare potential buyer. Just figure out your goals and make a decision. If you can't afford to lose money or pay timeshare maintenance fee for many years, then a timeshare is not for you.


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## Fasttr (Apr 14, 2018)

IMHO, the best part about fractional ownership, whether it be points or weeks, is you make vacationing a priority where otherwise you may decide not too for this reason or that.  Its hard to put a numerical value on that.


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## vacationtime1 (Apr 14, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I absolutely hate when people get all OCD about their timeshares. A timeshare is not an investment. You are posting here for reassurance but you need to live with uncertainty. You should only buy a timeshare if you love the location and want to visit it again and again or if you are willing to gamble with an exchange company. You can easily rent though TUG, Redweek, VRBO and other websites for just a little above maintenance fees so there is no need to buy. It seems like all the time, I see a post like this from a nervous timeshare potential buyer. Just figure out your goals and make a decision. If you can't afford to lose money or pay timeshare maintenance fee for many years, then a timeshare is not for you.



I disagree.  There is no reason to pay $4,000 for a vacation that can be had for $3,000.  That's not OCD; that's common sense.

I understand that timeshare is not an investment.  But that does not mean it has to be a money pit.


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## davidvel (Apr 14, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> For starters, very few pay full rate for MVC's points.  Marriott sells hybrid packages, which makes up of a week and somewhat equivalent points of that week, after skim of course.  That typically brings cost of the total points down to about $7 per point.  You can also buy resale and pay junk fees, with the total cost of about $6 per point.
> 
> We bought a hybrid package end of last year and we are starting to check their reservation system to see what we can get.  We are at Presidential level and it really isn't all that bad if we book at 60 days out for where we want to go to.  We are never peak season folks, preferring to travel in the shoulder season.  We also don't see booking Hawaii using points it costs too many points.
> 
> ...


This is a bit mixing apples and oranges. OP was talking about buying DC points and you first discuss the cost of buy-in though a hybrid package.  

Your example of exchanging your enrolled units is an entirely different beast. 

I would like to see what you have found "isn't all that bad" at 60 days, these examples always intrigue me.


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## JIMinNC (Apr 14, 2018)

vacationtime1 said:


> However, the rental cost of a TS for comparison purposes is not the retail price charged by Marriott.  When you rent from Marriott, you may rent any number of nights starting any day of the week and may cancel at pretty much any time.  When you own a TS, you get exactly seven days starting Fri/Sat/Sun once a year and you cannot change dates easily once reserved.  The better price comparison is renting a TS week on Redweek or TUG Marketplace; a two bedroom island view at Ko Olina rents for about $3,500.  Of course, that makes the economics of ownership even worse.



This is not true for Destination Club Points. With owning points, it’s just like cash, you can stay any number of nights and can check in any day of the week. You also have fairly flexible cancellation and change options outside of 60 days. With points ownership you are not restricted to certain check in days and 7 night stays like you are with legacy weeks or Redweek rentals. Points and cash stays booked with Marriott are both very flexible and are fair apples to apples comparisons to each other.

Comparing using points to Redweek rentals is also not a good comparison for another reason. Cash rentals direct from Marriott and points reservations are both transactions with a large reputable publicly-traded company, whereas Redweek and TUG Marketplace rentals are person-to-person Internet transactions with a person you may not know, with a higher level of risk and fewer options for recourse if the transaction is not as advertised. Redweek rentals generally offer no cancellation or change options whereas owning points gives you many options to cancel and rebook - just like cash rentals from Marriott.


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## vacationtime1 (Apr 15, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> This is not true for Destination Club Points. With owning points, it’s just like cash, you can stay any number of nights and can check in any day of the week. You also have fairly flexible cancellation and change options outside of 60 days. With points ownership you are not restricted to certain check in days and 7 night stays like you are with legacy weeks or Redweek rentals. Points and Cash are both very flexible and are fair apples to apples comparisons to each other.
> 
> Also comparing using points to Redweek rentals is not a good comparison because cash rentals direct from Marriott or points reservations are transactions with a large reputable publicly-traded company, whereas Redweek and TUG Marketplace rentals are person-to-person transactions with a person you may not know, with a higher level of risk and fewer options for recourse if the transaction is not as advertised. Redweek rentals generally offer no cancellation or change options whereas owning points gives you many options to cancel and rebook - just like cash rentals from Marriott.




I was referring to weeks ownership rather than points ownership in my previous post.  I agree with JIMinNC's comments above about points – but the flexibility we get using points comes at a VERY high cost.  Consider, for example (wonkish):

A summer OV week at Marriott’s Waiohai costs 5875 points.  Purchasing that many points costs between $40K - $75K, depending developer/resale.  Because the resale value of those points is no more than $24K (@ $4), one must account for depreciation as well as the opportunity cost on the capital deployed.  I use a 10% capital cost (given the lack of control, lack of marketability, inability to control costs, etc.); a professional real property appraiser would probably opine 15-20%.  MF’s and club fees are about $3,700.  *So reserving the week with points (Marriott’s currency) costs about  $7,700 - $11,200 in economic terms.  No bargain, even compared with Marriott's retail rental prices.  *

I understand the points games we can play – weekday stays, renting points, reservations within 60 days (assuming airplane tickets are not required), etc.  But points will almost never be economically efficient for reserving an expensive property.  Besides, if my vacation accommodations will be costing over $1,000/night, I am looking for alternative accommodations.


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## VacationForever (Apr 15, 2018)

davidvel said:


> This is a bit mixing apples and oranges. OP was talking about buying DC points and you first discuss the cost of buy-in though a hybrid package.
> 
> Your example of exchanging your enrolled units is an entirely different beast.
> 
> I would like to see what you have found "isn't all that bad" at 60 days, these examples always intrigue me.


It is not mixing apples and oranges.  Most educated buyers do not buy Marriott DC points at $13.74 per point as referenced by OP.  I am saying that by buying resale or a hybrid package, you get the same amount of points by paying half the price.

So what is wrong with using points from an enrolled week to make reservations?  A point is a point.  I am seeing value of using points to book back at the same resort that I own.  If I wait until 60 days to book a 1BR at DSV I, I only use ~1000 points per week in early Jan.  My week gets me 3225 points, I can use that to book 2 weeks of 1BR, with some change left.

Being a long time owner, OP could also enroll into DC system and use points as another option to use his/her ownership.

Another example that I can give... we are interested in going to Newport Coast sometime between late May to mid Sept, but not July and August.  We don't like to travel in July and August due to school break crowd and prefer to travel in late May to mid June or early Sept to mid Sept when kids are back in school.  While we don't own at Newport Coast, we can use points to book at Newport Coast at 60 days out and get discounted points booking.  It is a good way to use points.


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## rthib (Apr 15, 2018)

Other things missing from this:
Destination Escapes.  We got 3 bedroom in Kauai for 1700.
Shorter vacations, add on days. With points I can easily add a few nights before or after a week, or a weekend getaway. Or split night.
We do a few nights at Newport, a few nights at San Diego and a few nights at Palm Desert.

Hybrid is the best and I no longer have to waste a week if I just need a five night stay.


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## MOXJO7282 (Apr 15, 2018)

IMHO the DC point is a niche product that only some truly get good value from.  I think the biggest value you receive from DC points is the flexibility of use which for some is very valuable but you really do pay a premium for that flexibility.  I'm in the program and have access to 17k DC points. From what I can see you can get fairly good value from points used for good shoulder season units where you can turn a good platinum unit's points into an extended or second vacation in shoulder season. 

However if you use DC points for prime time 2BDRM view units you pay a super high premium which I think really diminishes the value of the program. This is because Marriott assigned very high point values to those prime units so to get a Maui or the like 2BDRM OV you end up paying as much as 30-40% more than if you owned a resale week or rented from Redweek.  

As for Redweek's risk, I could be considered biased because I use their service to rent all my weeks but I think RW's track record with many others suggests it is actually low risk. Again as some have stated they want that absolute peace of mind you get with points opposed to renting from a stranger but again you pay a huge payment for that peace of mind.


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## Quilter (Apr 15, 2018)

My initial perspective when I read the OP’s post was that he/she is worrying about a subject they don’t need to.  Move your brain to other, more pleasant or pertinent subjects.

My conclusions are based on a possible faulty assumption that OP’s weeks were purchased prior to June ‘10.   I looked through his post a couple times but can’t find any reference to when he purchased.  

If this is the case he can enroll and never have to purchase more points.  Rent points, yes.  Purchase, no. He can play the full system and never have to spend a moment thinking about how others purchase points.  

If he’s as old as his screen name implies the purchase of points is a real waste unless they have young family who want to absorb the gift without having to come up with the initial investment.


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## Quilter (Apr 15, 2018)

MOXJO7282 said:


> IMHO the DC point is a niche product that only some truly get good value from.
> 
> As for Redweek's risk, I could be considered biased because I use their service to rent all my weeks but I think RW's track record with many others suggests it is actually low risk. Again as some have stated they want that absolute peace of mind you get with points opposed to renting from a stranger but again you pay a huge payment for that peace of mind.



You make some good points Joe.  Your post came in while I was composing my last one.

I use Redweek service too.  While I haven’t paid for their new features of Redweek verified, that seems to give a new range of security to renters.  I still just try to work with the client to assure them who they’re renting from.  

After a week of looking myself for rentals through VRBO I see how much work it takes to find the right property and manager.  

Last year I looked for rentals at Ko Olina.  It took days and a spread sheet.


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## TravelTime (Apr 15, 2018)

vacationtime1 said:


> I disagree.  There is no reason to pay $4,000 for a vacation that can be had for $3,000.  That's not OCD; that's common sense.
> 
> I understand that timeshare is not an investment.  But that does not mean it has to be a money pit.



You and I are both agreeing. A timeshare should not be a money pit. But all vacations are money pits. You never know when you are getting the absolute best deal. My point was just that when folks start doing a billion calculations to justify their decisions, I smell a rat, as the saying goes. LOL Maybe my post came across as extreme but let's live a little and if we overspend by $500 over 20 years, oh well...

Days and a spreadsheet to go to Ko Olina. I charge $300 an hour. Hmmm...how much money would I lose doing that?

Just teasing you all. I know money is important but let's not get too fanatical. If we know the market rate on the resale market or rental market for a timeshare, then if you can come close that number, you are doing well...for today. No one knows what tomorrow will bring. Let's assume it will be worth less and the MF and taxes will increase. That is all we know for sure (usually).


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## davidvel (Apr 15, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> It is not mixing apples and oranges.  Most educated buyers do not buy Marriott DC points at $13.74 per point as referenced by OP.  I am saying that by buying resale or a hybrid package, you get the same amount of points by paying half the price.
> 
> So what is wrong with using points from an enrolled week to make reservations?  A point is a point.  I am seeing value of using points to book back at the same resort that I own.  If I wait until 60 days to book a 1BR at DSV I, I only use ~1000 points per week in early Jan.  My week gets me 3225 points, I can use that to book 2 weeks of 1BR, with some change left.
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with using enrolled points, but a point is not a point, as their cost basis is signicantly different. OP asked about buying points.

Yes if they can enroll their weeks, they should do this, basically for free. No need to buy any points, hybrid or not, as Quilter puts nicely.


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## TravelTime (Apr 15, 2018)

OldPantry said:


> I've been mum for the past few years. Still enjoying our Marriott weeks, still steadfastly refusing to buy points, still grumbling about the steady increase in maintenance fees. We have the equivalent of three weeks (two even-year Ko Olinas - don't ask, I'm stupid -, one Tahoe and one Newport). Everything is platinum (summer for the California resorts), with mountain views for Ko Olina. That works out to five possible weeks per year, with lock-offs. Three of our weeks were bought on the resale market, and would probably be salable at break-even. The first Ko Olina EOY would generate a $15,000 loss, once sold on the Redweek market.
> 
> One of my favorite pastimes is to figure out the "real" cost of a stay for us. By that I mean what it costs, per night, once all the variables are included. This is an iffy business, but I think it's worth adding it all up, and then comparing things with the open market (what Marriott would charge us if we weren't owners at all).
> 
> ...



I liked your analysis until you got to evaluating the cost of points. I bought my points for considerably less than what your analysis suggests for resale points. I like the benefits of 13 month booking, discount on last minute bookings, etc. I like the flexibility of booking the view type and room type I want - since views are important to me - as well as the number of days I want to stay. I do not like using Interval because there is no view guarantee. If there were a way to pay extra for a view guarantee through Interval, I would probably be super happy exchanging through Interval. Every time I consider booking a Getaway or exchanging, I change my mind. For example, next month, we have a vacation planned and I am using a combination of points from two rewards clubs and cash to stay in ocean view suites and hotel rooms when I could have used Interval for a Getaway in a 1 or 2 bedroom somewhere great for virtually nothing. However, I absolutely needed the ocean view. I think there is a place for points programs, a place for weeks and a place for rewards programs, depending on your goals. Mix and match if you can. It's fun.


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## TravelTime (Apr 15, 2018)

One thing I would not consider in an analysis of the upfront money to buy a timeshare is that an average person would actually invest that money and get a decent return on investment. The average person would probably spend that money on something else. It is like saying a house is an investment. Basically, a house is a forced saving plan for most people. If they did not have the house, they would not save and have nothing at retirement. I am sure a few of us are savers and invest our money wisely but to use that in a general analysis seems faulty to me.


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## vacationtime1 (Apr 15, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> You and I are both agreeing. A timeshare should not be a money pit. But all vacations are money pits. You never know when you are getting the absolute best deal. My point was just that when folks start doing a billion calculations to justify their decisions, I smell a rat, as the saying goes. LOL Maybe my post came across as extreme but let's live a little and if we overspend by $500 over 20 years, oh well...
> 
> *Days and a spreadsheet to go to Ko Olina. I charge $300 an hour. Hmmm...how much money would I lose doing that?*
> 
> Just teasing you all. I know money is important but let's not get too fanatical. If we know the market rate on the resale market or rental market for a timeshare, then if you can come close that number, you are doing well...for today. No one knows what tomorrow will bring. Let's assume it will be worth less and the MF and taxes will increase. That is all we know for sure (usually).




lol

I have joked many times that I am compensated for the time I spend obsessing over timeshares at less than minimum wage. 

So I call it a hobby.


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## VacationForever (Apr 15, 2018)

davidvel said:


> Nothing wrong with using enrolled points, but a point is not a point, as their cost basis is signicantly different. OP asked about buying points.
> 
> Yes if they can enroll their weeks, they should do this, basically for free. No need to buy any points, hybrid or not, as Quilter puts nicely.


For someone who wants to join the DC points booking train now, i.e. after June 2010, a point is a point in that by buying a hybrid package, one gets a bundle of points + an enrolled week giving a bundle of points at half the price of pure points.   It gains greater flexibility in the ability to use the week for points as a week in itself or for exchanging in II for half the price.

OP has owned for 15 years, and hence should enroll in the points system.


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## ljmiii (Apr 15, 2018)

OP brings up a number of good questions...but only because they are intermingled is the picture for points so bleak.

Q: Why would anyone buy points direct at almost $14/pt when they could buy at around $7/pt?  A: Because they don't know any better.

Q: Why would anyone buy points at $7/pt?  A: Because it makes sense to them practically and financially.

On the financial side the major factor for us was that the price of suites in major cities and high end beach front properties has gone through the roof...a trend that seems to be accelerating rather than leveling off. My family just stayed in Boston in a very nice 1BR during Easter break for $150/nt instead of $400-$600. I have a getaway planned with my wife later this month - $158/nt for a 1BR at the Mayflower when they (and every other good hotel in the area) were asking $400-$500 for a normal hotel room. Next Easter we'll be in SF in a Ritz Carlton 2BR 2.5BA for $300/nt.  The 'cash stay' Ritz Carlton doesn't offer 2BRs...a 1BR 1BA goes for $1,049/nt and the larger 1BR 1.5BA for $1,549/nt (during Pres week...Easter 2019 can't be booked yet).

As for beach properties, when I first started going to Honolulu I loved the Pink Palace and the Moana Surfrider. But then the prices went crazy...so we bought at Hilton Hawaiian Village. And then bought a 2nd week to bring the grandparents after I paid cash the first time they came with us (ouch!) and I realized it would take only 5 trips to recoup my initial investment.  Meanwhile, the Royal Hawaiian is asking $1116 to $2423/nt for a 1BR suite during Pres week 2019...which to me is simply unthinkable.  Not that HHV is Marriott...but later this year we are staying in a 2BR penthouse at Ko'Olina for $288/nt vs $964/nt cash for a random mountain view 2BR.

Practically, the convenience and flexibility can't be beat. That I can just book our stay and not worry about a II trade or Redweek rental fitting into our vacation plans is priceless. And there just aren't a lot of timeshares in the world I want to stay for a whole week that we don't already own.

In short, it is absolutely true that you are losing $3/pt right off the bat (unless that $7/pt is a hybrid week purchase with a more complex calculation). But then you are saving a lot of money with each stay. Moving forward you are balancing the return on the value of your points, the lost investment opportunity, the increases in maintenance fees vs room rates, and the savings in the price of suites/villas as you vacation. I expect to break even in about 10 years and show a 'profit' thereafter.


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## TravelTime (Apr 15, 2018)

ljmiii said:


> OP brings up a number of good questions...but only because they are intermingled is the picture for points so bleak.
> 
> Q: Why would anyone buy points direct at almost $14/pt when they could buy at around $7/pt?  A: Because they don't know any better.
> 
> ...



I absolutely agree with you but I think MVC Destination Points are for the more affluent Tuggers who value flexibility, views, choice and saving time. Unless you are buying to use a week, weeks and exchanging for whatever you get through Interval is more cost effective.


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## Quilter (Apr 15, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> OP has owned for 15 years, and hence should enroll in the points system.



"4000 points at $13.74 ($54960). With points reselling at a meager $4, the potential capital loss will be $38960, capitalized over 15 years - I suspect most folks don't last that long) = $2597 per year."

Is that where you found out the OP has owned for 15 years?

Oh no, now I'm obsessively looking through the post to find out how you know that. . .   I gotta go play in another thread box and let you guys have all the fun you want with this thread.


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## VacationForever (Apr 15, 2018)

Quilter said:


> "4000 points at $13.74 ($54960). With points reselling at a meager $4, the potential capital loss will be $38960, capitalized over 15 years - I suspect most folks don't last that long) = $2597 per year."
> 
> Is that where you found out the OP has owned for 15 years?
> 
> Oh no, now I'm obsessively looking through the post to find out how you know that. . .   I gotta go play in another thread box and let you guys have all the fun you want with this thread.


Third paragraph from OP's post:

"So, honesty requires, off the top, a charge for that $15000 loss we will realize for the initial up-front "investment" with Marriott. We won't ever see that money again. So, arbitrarily, I'm writing it off over 30 years, as we've already enjoyed the EOY for fifteen). Call it $500 per year."


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## JIMinNC (Apr 15, 2018)

ljmiii said:


> OP brings up a number of good questions...but only because they are intermingled is the picture for points so bleak.
> 
> Q: Why would anyone buy points direct at almost $14/pt when they could buy at around $7/pt?  A: Because they don't know any better.
> 
> ...



This is a great summary and pretty much matches how I feel as well. For places where we want to go on a regular, recurring schedule, deeded weeks are the only way to go for us. But to go to a variety of places, Points are the only timeshare product that can compete with or beat cash bookings from the major hospitality chains we prefer to use. Both traditional cash bookings and Points offer the flexibility and options we desire. Traditional timeshare exchanging or booking from sites like Redweek are just too rigid and inflexible for us.

Having said that, we still struggle with justifying the high acquisition cost for the Points product, and will never pay more than the $7/point or so range, if we ever add to our total.


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## VacationForever (Apr 15, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> Having said that, we still struggle with justifying the high acquisition cost for the Points product, and will never pay more than the $7/point or so range, if we ever add to our total.



We were fortunate to end up with $5.74 per point (3 weeks and 3K points) and they were all post June 2010 purchases, and got us to what we believe is a sweet spot to make discounted reservation at 60 days.  We are also planning to chain a reservation at different locations with 5 nights or so at each location in 2020.  We will be relying on points for most reservations except for Hawaii.  So far II exchange at Hawaii locations seems to be the most cost effective option.  We avoid peak season and we are pretty flexible.


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## turkel (Apr 15, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I absolutely agree with you but I think MVC Destination Points are for the more affluent Tuggers who value flexibility, views, choice and saving time. Unless you are buying to use a week, weeks and exchanging for whatever you get through Interval is more cost effective.



Although I do agree there are probably quite a few affluent Tuggers who value the destination points program,  not everyone that buys points is affluent.

Some are just foolish with their money and have no financial sense....I may be related to such a person.

A person may drive an expensive luxury car and spend, spend, spend but what is their bottom line? Debt,debt,debt?


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## Wally3433 (Apr 15, 2018)

OP needs to adjust the math for two things:
$7 per point cost, because that's what you would actually pay.
Redweek cost vs. nightly cash rate, because you would be stupid to not rent a week vs. paying Marriott directly.

Then, I would agree with the argument.


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## rthib (Apr 16, 2018)

Another point of points.
Crappy weather for friends so they can't get back home.
Need one night on HHI.
Choice was move to hotel, pay $$$ or do a quick points reservation for one night and extend vacation.
One of the reasons we are adding a few resale points to our enrolled weeks.

I see the point of adding a few resale points to enrolled weeks.


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## Old Hickory (Apr 16, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> You and I are both agreeing. A timeshare should not be a money pit. But all vacations are money pits. You never know when you are getting the absolute best deal. My point was just that when folks start doing a billion calculations to justify their decisions, I smell a rat, as the saying goes. LOL Maybe my post came across as extreme but let's live a little and if we overspend by $500 over 20 years, oh well...



Seriously.  I might never leave the house if I looked at the total cost of doing so.


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## VacationForever (Apr 16, 2018)

Wally3433 said:


> OP needs to adjust the math for two things:
> $7 per point cost, because that's what you would actually pay.
> Redweek cost vs. nightly cash rate, because you would be stupid to not rent a week vs. paying Marriott directly.
> 
> Then, I would agree with the argument.


Yes, many of us may be stupid because we don't rent through Redweek and instead use our timeshare or pay Marriott directly.  Private rentals can go wrong and when it does, the renter is going to feel even more stupid.


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## JIMinNC (Apr 16, 2018)

Wally3433 said:


> OP needs to adjust the math for two things:
> $7 per point cost, because that's what you would actually pay.
> Redweek cost vs. nightly cash rate, because you would be stupid to not rent a week vs. paying Marriott directly.
> 
> Then, I would agree with the argument.



Redweek cost is irrelevant for people (like us) who would never use a Redweek rental. We never use Redweek prices for comparison because we are not willing to make a person-to-person reservation for several thousand $$. We may be stupid, but we are not willing to pre-pay a stranger we connected with on the internet several thousand dollars for a reservation we can't cancel or change. Whenever we book for cash, we only book on the major corporate sites like marriott.com, hilton.com, etc. So for us, the Marriott cash rates are the most relevant metric.


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## TravelTime (Apr 16, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> Redweek cost is irrelevant for people (like us) who would never use a Redweek rental. We never use Redweek prices for comparison because we are not willing to make a person-to-person reservation for several thousand $$. We may be stupid, but we are not willing to pre-pay a stranger we connected with on the internet several thousand dollars for a reservation we can't cancel or change. Whenever we book for cash, we only book on the major corporate sites like marriott.com, hilton.com, etc. So for us, the Marriott cash rates are the most relevant metric.



I agree with JIMinNC. When I rent for cash (as well as use timeshares), I prefer using a system that allows me to get all or most of my money back (and points) within 30 days or less of booking because plans change. I like to plan 12 to 13 months in advance but I also like the option to change my plans without major penalties. Not that long ago, I booked through AirBnB and I changed my mind the following week. I lost 50%. Another example is I booked through ICE Rewards and changed my mind when I found out exchangers are limited in the services they can use at this particular Mexican resort, so fortunately I had paid the $99 cancelation fee so I can get most of my money back (although ICE is a pain in the you know where and they are hassling me about canceling). I rebooked the vacation somewhere else in the same area (since we already bought airfare with insurance) using MR points + cash and I can cancel up to 3 days before arrival. Since our life changes a lot, we need and value that flexibility. In 2016, we booked a condo through VRBO a year in advance. If we had canceled, we would have lost over $1000 (out of $3400 for a week). By the time the vacation came around, I no longer wanted to go but we did since we would have lost too much money. The location was great just 50 feet from the beach but the quality of the studio condo itself turned out to be 3.5 stars at most.


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## OldPantry (Apr 16, 2018)

vacationtime1 said:


> I like OP's financial analysis a lot.  Few owners really consider the capital cost and the capital depreciation, which as OP shows, is the biggest single cost item.  To pay $40,000 for a TS and to then say that the cost of the TS is only the annual fee is to ignore the $40,000.
> 
> However, the rental cost of a TS for comparison purposes is not the retail price charged by Marriott.  When you rent from Marriott, you may rent any number of nights starting any day of the week and may cancel at pretty much any time.  When you own a TS, you get exactly seven days starting Fri/Sat/Sun once a year and you cannot change dates easily once reserved.  The better price comparison is renting a TS week on Redweek or TUG Marketplace; a two bedroom island view at Ko Olina rents for about $3,500.  Of course, that makes the economics of ownership even worse.



You're absolutely right; few people pay full retail.  As you point out, snagging a rental on Redweek is a great way to go if you have a bit of time for the process.  No up-front capital investment, no loss of principal, no maintenance fee.  Not the cheapest way (a resale week can still sneak in well under the $500 in your example), but a nice compromise between very high-cost points flexibility and the grind of II trading when your reserved week won't do.  I chose to highlight reserving directly with Marriott because that is the ultimate in flexibility, the exact thing folks always emphasize about points.  If that turns out to be cheaper than points, then ... why not just do that?  I do know that most points owners have paid less for their position than Marriott now charges.  Which is why I invited some of them to do the kind of analysis I have done for my own weeks positions. There seems to be a consensus that points are expensive; I'm curious about just how expensive for various other owners.  Maybe someone has actually found a bargain.


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## Swice (Apr 16, 2018)

I think the answer of "value" differs with different people, situations and "when" originally bought.

Thankfully we had the resources to buy two units (Myrtle Beach and eventually Lakeshore Reserve Deluxe) before the points system debuted.     At work, everyone considers me "cheap."  I prefer to call myself "thrifty."   We are not known for wasting money.

In the first few years, we traded Myrtle Beach every year and got fantastic trades and bonus weeks from interval with few restrictions.    So we essentially got two weeks for the price of one for many years.    Later we added Lakeshore (I swore I would never buy a timeshare in Orlando) because the deluxe model trades as two one bedrooms (not a one bedroom and a studio).   That scheme worked wonderfully for a long time-- our one bedrooms were easily pulling two bedrooms in two bedroom only resorts.     

As we all know, the game is always changing.      The interval bonus weeks have become basically worthless to us.    The one bedrooms from Lakeshore are not pulling nearly as much and Interval has added an "upgrade" fee even when I'm downgrading season on the demand scale.    

I've converted to points a few times -- giving me flexibility to add nights to "WEEK" vacations or to allow for short stays.  

I would say without blinking an eye that our timeshares have been worth it for us.   We were fortunate enough to buy when our children were very small.   The truth is we have stayed at much nicer places than we would have been willing to pay cash for over the years.    We have enjoyed, and been spoiled by, the extra space and kitchens (even if you only do breakfast and snacks-- a major reduction of hassle and expense).    The timeshares have encouraged us to visit places we probably would not have gone to (France, Scotland, etc).    We never would have gone to Atlantic City for a week and explored Cape May and the New Jersey coast if we had not traded into the Marriott there.    We probably would have visited San Antonio for a few nights, but a full week there allowed us to explore other outlying areas!      All of this adds up to the vacation "opportunity cost" when doing a full analysis.  

Generally speaking, I think timeshares "can" be worth it if one is committed to learning the system (otherwise they are the ripoffs we've heard others talk about).     

I do think buying in now for the first time with Marriott points makes the economics more difficult.     I'm not sure I would encourage a friend to buy from scratch now.    I can see supplementing weeks with points under some situations in order to use (but not for the reasons of inheritance or gaining Marriott status (which is changing!).   

Looking at the money is important, but "some" flexibility, usage, frequency is hard to pin down to an exact figure.


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## OldPantry (Apr 16, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I absolutely hate when people get all OCD about their timeshares. A timeshare is not an investment. You are posting here for reassurance but you need to live with uncertainty. You should only buy a timeshare if you love the location and want to visit it again and again or if you are willing to gamble with an exchange company. You can easily rent though TUG, Redweek, VRBO and other websites for just a little above maintenance fees so there is no need to buy. It seems like all the time, I see a post like this from a nervous timeshare potential buyer. Just figure out your goals and make a decision. If you can't afford to lose money or pay timeshare maintenance fee for many years, then a timeshare is not for you.




OCD.  Hmm.  It's startling that you "hate" my post.  You could simply ignore it.  It should be clear that I'm not a nervous potential buyer, and that I have figured out my goals and made my decisions.  You just don't like me talking about it.  Odd. I spend quite a bit of time analyzing all of my investments.  To me, the timeshares are one piece of the larger picture, and that picture is fairly important to me.  We live on our investments now.  I like knowing which have worked out, and which have not.  I'm not losing any sleep; just want to make sure my next set of choices are better than some of the earlier duds.


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## OldPantry (Apr 16, 2018)

Quilter said:


> My initial perspective when I read the OP’s post was that he/she is worrying about a subject they don’t need to.  Move your brain to other, more pleasant or pertinent subjects.
> 
> My conclusions are based on a possible faulty assumption that OP’s weeks were purchased prior to June ‘10.   I looked through his post a couple times but can’t find any reference to when he purchased.
> 
> ...



Nothing I have is eligible for points enrollment.  I'm and outsider looking in. And yes, I am OLD!  And, no, I am not worried at all (about timeshare, at least, maybe about the world a bit).  I do have kids, and wonder whether they will be grateful when I "gift" them our weeks.


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## OldPantry (Apr 16, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> One thing I would not consider in an analysis of the upfront money to buy a timeshare is that an average person would actually invest that money and get a decent return on investment. The average person would probably spend that money on something else. It is like saying a house is an investment. Basically, a house is a forced saving plan for most people. If they did not have the house, they would not save and have nothing at retirement. I am sure a few of us are savers and invest our money wisely but to use that in a general analysis seems faulty to me.



You seems to be saying that the "average person" would blow the money anyway.  I have to argue about that.  Folks who can afford timeshares are, by and large, exactly the folks who invest.  The amounts of money needed to buy 5000 or 6000 Marriott points are large enough that the "average person" would not regard it as mad money to be spent on this or that. One other thing. While describing the purchase of a house as forced investment makes sense, I'm not sure it's relevant to the points "investment", which is a very poor way to save money.


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## Hi I'm new here (Apr 16, 2018)

Kudos to the OP for saying out loud what is very difficult to say when you are in the Marriott system.  

I’ve read here for years and have read many justification why people should by timeshares.  Have never heard anyone say you might as well buy a timeshare because you will blow the $40,000 anyway.  huh?  Ever hear of the millionaire next door?  I know quite a few. 

There is no validity to any financial analysis that inputs rack rate lodging prices into the evaluation.


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## TravelTime (Apr 16, 2018)

Swice said:


> The truth is we have stayed at much nicer places than we would have been willing to pay cash for over the years.    We have enjoyed, and been spoiled by, the extra space and kitchens (even if you only do breakfast and snacks-- a major reduction of hassle and expense).
> Looking at the money is important, but "some" flexibility, usage, frequency is hard to pin down to an exact figure.



I agree a lot with this!


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## TravelTime (Apr 16, 2018)

OldPantry said:


> OCD.  Hmm.  It's startling that you "hate" my post.  You could simply ignore it.  It should be clear that I'm not a nervous potential buyer, and that I have figured out my goals and made my decisions.  You just don't like me talking about it.  Odd. I spend quite a bit of time analyzing all of my investments.  To me, the timeshares are one piece of the larger picture, and that picture is fairly important to me.  We live on our investments now.  I like knowing which have worked out, and which have not.  I'm not losing any sleep; just want to make sure my next set of choices are better than some of the earlier duds.



You did not read my later posts. I was just being extreme and kidding. I agree money is important. I also do analysis. But at some point I give up because one never knows what the ultimate best deal is or where the market will go. I mentioned  I agreed with most of your analysis. The "OCD" part was just teasing. You did a very good analysis. I do not hate your post. It has driven a lot of good conversation! So that means it is a provocative post. Thank you for posting!


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## TravelTime (Apr 16, 2018)

OldPantry said:


> You seems to be saying that the "average person" would blow the money anyway.  I have to argue about that.  Folks who can afford timeshares are, by and large, exactly the folks who invest.  The amounts of money needed to buy 5000 or 6000 Marriott points are large enough that the "average person" would not regard it as mad money to be spent on this or that. One other thing. While describing the purchase of a house as forced investment makes sense, I'm not sure it's relevant to the points "investment", which is a very poor way to save money.



I hate to say this, as it may seem insensitive, but I believe Main Street greed was as responsible as Wall Street greed, for the housing crash and Great Recession in 2008-2009. (I worked in the housing industry in 2004-2005 before quitting due to all the greed I saw on all ends.) People are not savers by nature. I think us Tuggers are probably more cost conscious and probably save more and read our contracts and over-analyze before making a decision compared to the vast majority of Americans. From what I have gathered, many (if not most) people take out loans from the developers to buy overpriced timeshares - and they are perfectly happy. If it weren't for them, there would be no timeshare resale market. I only mentioned housing as a forced saving plan - not to compare it to timeshares - but to say that most Americans would have close to zero net worth if they did not have a home as a forced savings plan. Timeshares are definitely not a savings plan, I agree. Timeshares are more akin to buying a car - it depreciates the moment you leave the sales office but the amount owed goes up with the loan.


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## dgf15215 (Apr 16, 2018)

Old Hickory said:


> Seriously.  I might never leave the house if I looked at the total cost of doing so.



That's one of the conclusions I've come to as well. My wife and I value the flexibility that trading our weeks for points + using the points we purchased gives us in moving around the system.


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## JIMinNC (Apr 16, 2018)

Hi I'm new here said:


> There is no validity to any financial analysis that inputs rack rate lodging prices into the evaluation.



Why? 

Any financial analysis should consider the actual tradeoffs versus theoretical. While off-price, person-to-person, VRBO, etc are cheaper than what you call "rack rates", these alternative channels are totally irrelevant for any person who doesn't/won't use those alternative channels. Any realistic financial analysis should compare relevant options for each individual/situation against each other.

It's like comparing the cost of flying versus driving - someone who doesn't book discount airlines like Spirit, Allegiant, Frontier, or Southwest should never compare the cost of those airlines against driving. They should compare the cost of flying on the airlines they would actually fly.

If I'm not willing to book lodging on VRBO, Redweek, etc. any financial analysis that uses those as a metric is useless for me. As I'm sure you can tell from some of the other responses, there are also many other folks who feel the same way and only book on mainstream corporate hotel/lodging booking sites and avoid the P2P marketplaces.

The VRBO/Redweek compare may be relevant for YOU. But as we've said many times, one size does not fit all.

And it has nothing to do with being afraid to say anything "out loud" when you are in the Marriott system. Most TUGgers are willing to criticize and complain about many things in the Marriott system when it doesn't work for us. I do find it interesting that you seem to be unable to see how others might have a different view than you, or find that things that don't happen to work for you actually work for them.


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## ljmiii (Apr 16, 2018)

Hi I'm new here said:


> There is no validity to any financial analysis that inputs rack rate lodging prices into the evaluation.


I might have missed something but I didn't see anyone using rack rates. Certainly all the prices I quoted weren't rack rates but rather were the actual price to book a room with discounts applied - MR, AAA, and (cough) AARP as applicable.


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## VacationForever (Apr 16, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> Why?
> 
> Any financial analysis should consider the actual tradeoffs versus theoretical. While off-price, person-to-person, VRBO, etc are cheaper than what you call "rack rates", these alternative channels are totally irrelevant for any person who doesn't/won't use those alternative channels. Any realistic financial analysis should compare relevant options for each individual/situation against each other.
> 
> ...



Very well said.  We only book our stay with mainstream corporate hotel/lodging booking sites and absolutely refuse to use P2P marketplaces and private rentals.  Corporate prices is the true cost comparison for us.  We just won't book with a 3rd party.  The issues with 3rd party booking can vary from showing up without a reservation because we got scammed, or in the worst case scenario, dead like that family who booked their condo stay in Mexico through Homeaway.


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## Old Hickory (Apr 18, 2018)

Swice said:


> I think the answer of "value" differs with different people...




This entire post... +1.   And I would say that for us, we cannot place a value on our life's experiences.   Would I have ever experienced B, if we had not visited A.   Outer Banks/Williamsburg.   Portsmouth, Portland, and Cape Cod/Boston.   Bonneville Salt Flats/Park City.   Everglades National Park/Marco Island.   That's just a few.


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## OldPantry (Apr 18, 2018)

I've enjoyed the lively response to my post.  The responses seems to fall into two categories.  1.  Yup, points are fantastically expensive.  2.  You can't put a price on joy.

Now, only a curmudgeon would pooh pooh someone's perception of satisfaction.  If your points package (of whatever type, legacy, new purchase, hybid ... ) floats your boat, then lovely.  Really.  Just don't tell me you can't put a price on it.  You can. 

I've invited some of you to do just that.  While the computation is unquestionably a bit more complex than the one I did, it's not impossibly so.  You either bought timeshare weeks (at some measurable price) and have transitioned to points (at some measurable cost), or you bought points from Marriott (also at some measurable price).  You are either paying maintenance fees on your weeks, or maintenance fees on your points.  Even you hybrid guys have measurable investments and measurable costs.  I'm just hoping that one or two of you (ideally folks with a nice slog of points) will trudge through the math to arrive at an average nightly cost.  I know it won't be exact.  Frankly, I'd be quite happy if someone has discovered the grail of affordability, flexibility and joy.


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 18, 2018)

OldPantry said:


> I've enjoyed the lively response to my post.  The responses seems to fall into two categories.  1.  Yup, points are fantastically expensive.  2.  You can't put a price on joy.
> 
> Now, only a curmudgeon would pooh pooh someone's perception of satisfaction.  If your points package (of whatever type, legacy, new purchase, hybid ... ) floats your boat, then lovely.  Really.  Just don't tell me you can't put a price on it.  You can.
> 
> I've invited some of you to do just that.  While the computation is unquestionably a bit more complex than the one I did, it's not impossibly so.  You either bought timeshare weeks (at some measurable price) and have transitioned to points (at some measurable cost), or you bought points from Marriott (also at some measurable price).  You are either paying maintenance fees on your weeks, or maintenance fees on your points.  Even you hybrid guys have measurable investments and measurable costs.  I'm just hoping that one or two of you (ideally folks with a nice slog of points) will trudge through the math to arrive at an average nightly cost.  I know it won't be exact.  Frankly, I'd be quite happy if someone has discovered the grail of affordability, flexibility and joy.



Average nightly cost where? Anywhere? Specific place? Cheapest possible place? I assume based on MF + taxes. The best I have done is $88/nt with points. But it obviously depends where and when. I could stay offseason in studios for example, as cheap as 50 points/nt, i.e, ~$27 per night. Is that not cheap?

So, if I can go somewhere on points you cannot go on non points, that has no value? Endless examples on the forums of those! I get you see little value, and like you, I don't want to pooh pooh your satisfaction. 

If I can stay 90 days in said studios, can you do that with 1 week owned? 2 weeks? I think it will take you 6-7 weeks and then locking off, paying those fees, exchanging, II fees, etc. Which would be cheaper? And actually, I get 25% off within 30 days, I'll give you a chance and not even claim that bonus which would extended my points to 120 nights or 4 months.

So, you want to writeoff over 30 years. Ok, my all in, every last cent, was $5.45/pt. I can sell those today at $4/pt. So, I would "lose" $1.45/pt * 4500 I own = $6525 over 30 years. Not much of a loss, and that presumes the resale value doesn't rise or fall. So, at my extreme 90 nights example, that's $2.41/nt added to my $27 = just under $30/nt. Interested in your response... I took the bait!


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## vacationtime1 (Apr 18, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Average nightly cost where? Anywhere? Specific place? Cheapest possible place? I assume based on MF + taxes. The best I have done is $88/nt with points. But it obviously depends where and when. I could stay offseason in studios for example, as cheap as 50 points/nt, i.e, ~$27 per night. Is that not cheap?
> 
> So, if I can go somewhere on points you cannot go on non points, that has no value? Endless examples on the forums of those! I get you see little value, and like you, I don't want to pooh pooh your satisfaction.
> 
> ...



The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.


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## OldPantry (Apr 18, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Average nightly cost where? Anywhere? Specific place? Cheapest possible place? I assume based on MF + taxes. The best I have done is $88/nt with points. But it obviously depends where and when. I could stay offseason in studios for example, as cheap as 50 points/nt, i.e, ~$27 per night. Is that not cheap?
> 
> So, if I can go somewhere on points you cannot go on non points, that has no value? Endless examples on the forums of those! I get you see little value, and like you, I don't want to pooh pooh your satisfaction.
> 
> ...



Hi Steve.  Sounds pretty great, 4500 points for $5.45 a point. Was that direct from Marriott, or a purchase on the open market?  And there's nothing else lurking in the background, like a prior purchase of weeks?  I'd say you drove a hard bargain with somebody.  Even so, I'm a bit struck by that $80 nightly figure.  It seems to me you might not be including all the costs.  Your maintenance fee on points should be something like $2370.  If you use all the 4500 points on a single plat 2BR week (not at all unlikely, as my own Ko Olina analysis shows), that comes to $339/night, plus the highly derided $30" loss" you give me.  So, $369/night.  But you did pay out something like $24,525 for the points.  That's money you don't have, money that might otherwise generate the 5% my bonds yield.  So, add in $1225, or $175/night.  So, really more like $544/night.  And isn't there a $195 yearly owner's fee? So, $570/night.  Of course, as I originally acknowledged, the nightly drops substantially if you tinker with off-season stays and smaller units.  Your talk of 90 studio nights yearly is enticing (but I bet you don't actually do anything like that).  Since my own analysis derives from 2BR plats at places like the destinations I own, I think it's fair to use that in comparing your situation.  

At $570 a night for a plat 2BR, you've achieved flexibility at a far lower cost than reserving directly with Marriott.  Of course, that flexibility is hardly cheap compared to the alternative I've pursued.   Still, I thank you for providing some stats that make the points picture look less overwhelmingly bleak.  I'll take a look and see what ultra-cheap resale points cost, adjusted for all the friction involved in obtaining and registering them.


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 18, 2018)

MF is 2457 for the points. Yes, you can spend your points in non optimal ways, I could also exchange the most expensive week in your case for summer desert. That doesn't make my example wrong though, it isn't. No, I did not do 90 studio nights (but it IS possible), but I have done some since it's essentially a hotel stay while out of town for part of a week at a super low cost. My cost was every penny to purchase the points, most but not all resale. Your math is way off the way I view vacations. I will get virtually all my purchase money back, possibly, more. Which might allow for some growth of the capital, certainly nowhere near the loss you suggest. You are using a good example for your side, but a terrible example for the points side to compare. Sorry, but your comparison is a very bad one for points usage to make your ownership look better than it is. I would never ever use all those points for one stay, that would be foolish for me at least. Stays do not have to be off season. and remember, I even gave you a bunch of value when I didn't use the within 30 day 25% discount on points, which I almost always do use. That makes 4500 points = 6000 points. Hawaii is always available via points within 30 days. I do have an ownership as well, but that does not play into this. It has no bearing on any of the prices I pay or considerations found here. what it does do is allow us to use points when it's a better deal, and ownership when it's a better deal. Why would I ever pay $500/nt for Ko Olina when I traded a lockoff into it, that's wasteful. Factoring my cost over 7 nights is not accurate, I have never ever taken only 7 nights in a year!

Yes, a fairer comparison is weeks you get vs weeks I get, but not at the same places as I do not do what you do. It might be fair to say therefore for you points would not work, but it is not fair to say weeks would be better for me, they would not be. So, in short, my actual per night cost was under $80. But I didn't want to rely on that as some seem to think that's not likely to use, but we are retired. I think the best value comes with a combination myself, if that were possible at a decent price. Yes, there is a yearly enrollment fee, but no II, no lockoff. So, cheaper than weeks in the fee sense.

In any case, hopefully, I have shown that points can certainly make sense, depends what you do, where you want to go, flexible, etc. I could just as easily take your ownership and fit it into examples I can do much cheaper than you. But, in general, when you purchase points at developer prices, it's a terrible deal, I do agree.

I will amend my answer after JIMinNC below posted. He is spot on and I did not mention that I also used money that would not have been invested. These purchases have nothing to do with invested money. You should not consider the potential gains from investment since likely the money would have been spent on travel anyway, probably costing me more money. After all, you calculated you saved money. Well, saving money is a positive, not a negative.


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## JIMinNC (Apr 18, 2018)

OldPantry,

I took a stab at estimating our nightly cost since we in initially bought MVC in 2014. I included all trips taken, plus those scheduled, and included all maintenance fee costs, club dues, point rentals, etc. For years that we've already booked trips but not yet paid MF (2019), I estimated the fees at +5% from 2018. 

Total nights: 56 (all were 2BR except for 4 nights at MVC Pulse at the Mayflower in DC)

Total ongoing costs (not including purchase): $16,500

Total cost per night: $295

This is from a blend of 7 points bookings, a weeks booking, and a couple of II exchanges.

This does not factor in the $31,600 purchase cost of: 1) 1750 points, 2) an enrolled Barony Beach Club week, and 3) an external non-enrolled Maui Ocean Club week. I estimate that I could net $6500 if I sold the Maui week after broker commission, $2200 for the Barony week, and about $5000 for the points; so total of $13,700. That leaves a net capital loss on the purchases of $17,900. I assume a 25 year usage life of the ownership (until roughly age 80), so that loss adds $716/year to the cost of ownership. Over the five years of usage that generated the 56 nights, that's $3580, or an additional $64/night.

So, that increases the total nightly cost to *$359/night* for mostly 2BR condos. Many of those condos rent for around $500/night or (in the case of Hawaii) much more. (Example - we added two cash nights to our current Points stay that we are enjoying right now at HHI Grande Ocean, and those two nights cost us just under $1000.)

I *did not* include an investment cost of capital or lost earnings on the $31,600 purchase cost, since I have never sold income/capital gains-producing investments to buy timeshares. I've only used excess, uninvested cash, bonus proceeds, etc. This money would likely never have been added to our investment portfolio, and if not spent on timeshares, would have been spent on non-timeshare travel or other cash purchases or expenditures.


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## vacationtime1 (Apr 19, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> MF is 2457 for the points. Yes, you can spend your points in non optimal ways, I could also exchange the most expensive week in your case for summer desert. That doesn't make my example wrong though, it isn't. No, I did not do 90 studio nights (but it IS possible), but I have done some since it's essentially a hotel stay while out of town for part of a week at a super low cost. My cost was every penny to purchase the points, most but not all resale. Your math is way off the way I view vacations. *I will get virtually all my purchase money back, possibly, more. *Which might allow for some growth of the capital, certainly nowhere near the loss you suggest. You are using a good example for your side, but a terrible example for the points side to compare. Sorry, but your comparison is a very bad one for points usage to make your ownership look better than it is. I would never ever use all those points for one stay, that would be foolish for me at least. Stays do not have to be off season. and remember, I even gave you a bunch of value when I didn't use the within 30 day 25% discount on points, which I almost always do use. That makes 4500 points = 6000 points. Hawaii is always available via points within 30 days. I do have an ownership as well, but that does not play into this. It has no bearing on any of the prices I pay or considerations found here. what it does do is allow us to use points when it's a better deal, and ownership when it's a better deal. Why would I ever pay $500/nt for Ko Olina when I traded a lockoff into it, that's wasteful.
> 
> Yes, a fairer comparison is weeks you get vs weeks I get, but not at the same places as I do not do what you do. It might be fair to say therefore for you points would not work, but it is not fair to say weeks would be better for me, they would not be. So, in short, my actual per night cost was under $80. But I didn't want to rely on that as some seem to think that's not likely to use, but we are retired. I think the best value comes with a combination myself, if that were possible at a decent price. Yes, there is a yearly enrollment fee, but no II, no lockoff. So, cheaper than weeks in the fee sense.
> 
> In any case, hopefully, I have shown that points can certainly make sense, depends what you do, where you want to go, flexible, etc. I could just as easily take your ownership and fit it into examples I can do much cheaper than you. But, in general, when you purchase points at developer prices, it's a terrible deal, I do agree.



We have different opinions about the cost of owning and using a timeshare because we made different assumptions about exit value.

You assume you will make a profit when you eventually sell your timeshares, thus reducing or eliminating capital costs.

I am less optimistic; I expect to lose money on them overall.  I therefore add a substantial capital component to the cost of ownership.


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 19, 2018)

vacationtime1 said:


> We have different opinions about the cost of owning and using a timeshare because we made different assumptions about exit value.
> 
> You assume you will make a profit when you eventually sell your timeshares, thus reducing or eliminating capital costs.
> 
> I am less optimistic; I expect to lose money on them overall.  I therefore add a substantial capital component to the cost of ownership.



Not exactly true, though re-reading it I see what you are saying. I certainly do not assume I would make money, I said "virtually all" which is based on current market the only info we have, and could make more which is also possible. I am typing with one hand for the foreseeable future, the word will should probably have been might, or should even. Will is too strong, but, I am having difficulty right now with meds and such and typing. Making too many mistakes! It's 15 minutes later and I am still correcting this post. That's why the next non red sentence is there, I said it *could* (might) offset a portion of the loss he was considering using his method, not exceed it. I could get nothing, I could get more. Things change over time, no one knows the future. At present, I would come fairly close to even. That was the point. If I get 0 back, I am still way ahead. Adding to the cost of something that allows me to spend less is not making sense to me. And that was speaking of the points component, no question I will get a tiny fraction of my ownership back, but then again, I bought it 20 years ago. I have an analysis something on this BBS of a trip last year and I had costed out my 4 weeks in Australia. I don't recall right now what I said the total savings was, and admittedly this would be the highest of any trip I ever took. But I believe it was close to $7,000, but I wouldn't guarantee that in my state of mind. Which pays on it's own most of the acquisition cost of my original ownership back then. In a single trip.

I would not add a capital component since it's money that would be spent vacationing anyway, except *more* money. That more than offsets the capital component. It's obviously not all the very first year. But it isn't too many years at which point I would have less money had I have not purchased. How can you justify adding cost to something that is saving!? I consider all benefits of ownership, not just exchanges, points, etc also which are not even considered here. Can you really stay at a top resort that has a getaway via II for $200 or so for a week without owning? Maybe sometimes, not sure, but doubtful. We use getaways a lot. You guys are not even considering how that lowers your costs here.

Keep in mind, the OP is talking about how he is saving. He is clearly saving more than he thinks.


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## OldPantry (Apr 19, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> OldPantry,
> 
> I took a stab at estimating our nightly cost since we in initially bought MVC in 2014. I included all trips taken, plus those scheduled, and included all maintenance fee costs, club dues, point rentals, etc. For years that we've already booked trips but not yet paid MF (2019), I estimated the fees at +5% from 2018.
> 
> ...



Ah the power of positive thinking.  You didn't sell investments to buy the timeshares, so there's no opportunity cost?  Come on.  I don't dispute your right to spend the money, and therefore not invest it.  I just think it's willful myopia to say there's no cost.  "Uninvested cash" means precisely that you could have invested it.  And reinvested the earnings on the investment.  Or spend those earnings on ... vacations!  And sure, that spent income would be a cost too.  

Consider the alternate uses you mention "non timeshare travel, or other cash purchases or expenditures."  If you had done those things, would you pretend that they were cost-free?   And let's be clear, you didn't spend a lump sum of $31,600 back then on a vacation.  You bought something.  You could have bought bonds (or stocks, or beanie babies), but you bought timeshares and points.  You gave up future income for future vacations.  That IS opportunity cost.  

I was willing to factor in my opportunity cost, painful as it was looking back.  So, including what your reject, your opportunity cost appears to be somewhere around $1580 yearly (that dreaded 5%), so over the five years you are analyzing, that would be $7900, or about $140 for each of 56 nights you've enjoyed.  So again, it looks like about $500 per night.  I don't think that's bad, especially as your Hawaii exposure is a bit larger than mine.  Our weeks exposure, exclusive of points, is kind of similar  Thanks for providing your analysis.


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## bazzap (Apr 19, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I absolutely agree with you but I think MVC Destination Points are for the more affluent Tuggers who value flexibility, views, choice and saving time. Unless you are buying to use a week, weeks and exchanging for whatever you get through Interval is more cost effective.


Best of all, those who were lucky enough to buy weeks resale before the cutoff date and enrol for DC points at minimal cost to benefit from all options.


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 19, 2018)

OldPantry said:


> Ah the power of positive thinking.  You didn't sell investments to buy the timeshares, so there's no opportunity cost?  Come on.  I don't dispute your right to spend the money, and therefore not invest it.  I just think it's willful myopia to say there's no cost.  "Uninvested cash" means precisely that you could have invested it.  And reinvested the earnings on the investment.  Or spend those earnings on ... vacations!  And sure, that spent income would be a cost too.



Here's my question, I get your thinking, but...

So, lets' say I bought my timeshare and spent $50,000 over 10 years, purchase cost, MF, taxes, etc and vacations, i.e., all in. Hypothetical number. You want to add opportunity cost to that portion spent to purchase it. Ok.

Now, let's say I did not purchase that timeshare 10 years ago, and, I spent 50,000 on vacations over that 10 year period. In this case, you do not want to apply opportunity cost. Right?


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## JIMinNC (Apr 19, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Here's my question, I get your thinking, but...
> 
> So, lets' say I bought my timeshare and spent $50,000 over 10 years, purchase cost, MF, taxes, etc and vacations, i.e., all in. Hypothetical number. You want to add opportunity cost to that portion spent to purchase it. Ok.
> 
> Now, let's say I did not purchase that timeshare 10 years ago, and, I spent 50,000 on vacations over that 10 year period. In this case, you do not want to apply opportunity cost. Right?



This is sorta what I was trying to say as to why I disagree with applying a strict opportunity cost to the purchase price. If we hadn’t spent that upfront $$ on the timeshares, it would have likely been spent on other travel or other purchases. I could also have invested it in Amazon or Netflix stock and done a heck of a lot better than 5%. So the opportunity cost of your 5% bond could be 100% for missing the opportunity to buy AMZN or NFLX (the money I DID invest in Netflix about a year ago is up 125% and Amazon is up 60%), so every REAL “opportunity cost” is relative to the opportunity lost. 

So the “real” opportunity cost of our timeshare expenditure is not that the money was not invested, it is that it wasn’t spent on other trips, a new car (also a depreciating asset), etc. Speaking of cars, how often do we talk about the “opportunity cost” of spending $31,000 on a car? You could make the same argument there.


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## VacationForever (Apr 19, 2018)

We do not attempt to do fuzzy math with our purchases.  What we do know is that between timeshare conversion to MRP and credit card bonuses and points, they have gotten us 1 to 2 sets of round trip business class air tickets to Europe and Asia each year.  This is in addition to several free 5 nights stay at Cat 8 and 9 hotels. We still get several weeks of timeshare stays. Our Marriott purchase cost 70K and annual MF is around 6.5K this year.  1 round trip business class tickets cost between 4.5K to 6K, for the 2 of us it would have been 9K to 12K.  This year we are doing 2 trips.  Separately I made another trip to Asia already this year.  We clearly come out ahead.

We are mixing points and weeks, but to us it is the same as they are all developer bought and eligible for MRP conversion.


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## OldPantry (Apr 19, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Here's my question, I get your thinking, but...
> 
> So, lets' say I bought my timeshare and spent $50,000 over 10 years, purchase cost, MF, taxes, etc and vacations, i.e., all in. Hypothetical number. You want to add opportunity cost to that portion spent to purchase it. Ok.
> 
> Now, let's say I did not purchase that timeshare 10 years ago, and, I spent 50,000 on vacations over that 10 year period. In this case, you do not want to apply opportunity cost. Right?



Thinking ... thinking.  No doubt about the latter question.  You're spending $5,000 per year.  Straight expense, real cost $5,000 per year.  The first question is incomplete though.  You agree I can add in opportunity cost, but don't add it in.  If you did, then that ten-year $50,000 is more.  Right?  In year 1, you didn't spend $5,000, you invested more, a lot more.  You invested in an asset instead of a ... bond.  I know the mantra in TUG is not to think of a timeshare as an asset, but it is.  Just one that has, by and large, lost value rather than gain.  Still, it is worth something.  And you've received real value over the years, specifically access to properties that would cost more at "rack rates", or the open market (as defined by Marriott's reservation system).  My point all along is that the value proposition, for all of us, is often less generous that we have assumed.  At some point, the trajectories overlap, and owning weeks/purchasing points is uneconomical. 

For me, I am safely on the value side.   Several of the points responders have satisfied me that they too are on the favorable side.  I am also intrigued by the points argument that you can reap tons of off-plat studios and 1 BRs with a modest number of points.  That might compare favorably to II getaways and certificates, which also plunder that inventory.  It would require some heavy lifting to work it out, though.  

Realizing that my real cost for my favored 2BR plat is actually near $400/night was sobering.  I remember being happy when we bought our first Ko Olina EOY, figuring that our cost per night was $150, and knowing that we could halve that by locking off.  Inflation and erosion of timeshare values put paid to that.  Now, when we go to our favorite VC spots, I still love them and know that I'm getting a relative bargain.  But when I look to book something outside the system, and assuming a $400/night budget, I look hard at Airbnb first.  We've booked 3 bedroom flats in Rome, Copenhagen, Paris and London, all close-in, all below $300 per night.  Yeah, I know, apples and oranges, but still ...  BTW, we've used Airbnb and VRBO many times.  One absolute dud (severe misrepresentation by the owner), but otherwise splendid results.  Take a dip, you might like it!


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## GregT (Apr 19, 2018)

I’m about $300/night, which gets me:

Two weeks in a 3BR unit at MOC

One week in a 2BR at HGVC KingsLand

One week at Ko Olina

Another week somewhere

So 5 weeks of vacation for $10K/year.  Plus it “forces” me to take the vacations and I have priceless time with friends/family that I wouldn’t do at rack rates.

Fun stuff these timeshares!

Best,

Greg

Edited: most of the $10K is depreciation expense on the purchases because I’m cash neutral during the year on the MFs. And this assumes these things become worthless.  Interesting exercise.


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 19, 2018)

OldPantry said:


> Thinking ... thinking.  No doubt about the latter question.  You're spending $5,000 per year.  Straight expense, real cost $5,000 per year.  The first question is incomplete though.  You agree I can add in opportunity cost, but don't add it in.  If you did, then that ten-year $50,000 is more.  Right?



No, I didn't agree, it was a theoretical ok based on your argument. In both examples, I spent 50k on vacations. You call part of scenario 1 an asset. In both cases, I have 50k less. Slightly more than 50k in the first example since you want to say it could have been invested so I lost a tiny amount of that over scenario 2. But on the other hand, I will get >0 when I sell it, no doubt offsetting the entire additional cost you want to add and then some. As far as money spent, it's the same! It's money I am spending anyway. The odds are it was never invested (100% odds in my case), I don't sell investments to take a vacation, it's in a savings account making 1% or whatever the useless current rate is. So, maybe your calculations make sense for you, but they do not for me. My cost was 50k in both examples. And I am ahead every year thereafter. Though those are not accurate numbers, just hypothetical. That's how I see it at least. I see no need to add to the first example. Total money spent is what matters for this retired guy. It would have gone to vacations anyway, except, more expensive vacations.

Why can't you just consider the timeshare purchase in my example as simply vacation! It really is. I understand in the case of people who finance, or, people who do have to scrape up the money that there should be costs added. In my case, the current points going resale rate was around $4 per point, might be slightly lower now due to the junk fee increase, but, they keep raising points cost too, so, might be the same. So, that's not much less than I paid anyway. *This I am sure is much different than your purchases, my guess is you will lose almost all of it.* Who's to say if points will depreciate, appreciate, or neither. But if you use it to get better vacations for less, over time of course, I don't see any need in my example to add any cost. I just see it in my accounting system as vacation money.

More important is to also consider if you want to calculate future MF costs since they go up, vs, future rental rates since those will go up also. What will future inflation be? What will interest rates be? etc. We're not far off really, and I hoped I at a minimum stimulated your thought on how points can be useful. But if someone wanted me to buy points at $14 each or whatever they are now, no way! The old developer priced weeks were better than developer priced points iMHO.


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## kds4 (Apr 19, 2018)

OldPantry said:


> Nothing I have is eligible for points enrollment.  I'm and outsider looking in. And yes, I am OLD!  And, no, I am not worried at all (about timeshare, at least, maybe about the world a bit).  I do have kids, and wonder whether they will be grateful when I "gift" them our weeks.



As someone who has owned as long as you have (certainly pre-2010 based on 15 years of EOY ownership), why do you say you have nothing eligible for enrollment?


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## TravelTime (Apr 19, 2018)

OldPantry said:


> I've enjoyed the lively response to my post.  The responses seems to fall into two categories.  1.  Yup, points are fantastically expensive.  2.  You can't put a price on joy.
> 
> Now, only a curmudgeon would pooh pooh someone's perception of satisfaction.  If your points package (of whatever type, legacy, new purchase, hybid ... ) floats your boat, then lovely.  Really.  Just don't tell me you can't put a price on it.  You can.
> 
> I've invited some of you to do just that.  While the computation is unquestionably a bit more complex than the one I did, it's not impossibly so.  You either bought timeshare weeks (at some measurable price) and have transitioned to points (at some measurable cost), or you bought points from Marriott (also at some measurable price).  You are either paying maintenance fees on your weeks, or maintenance fees on your points.  Even you hybrid guys have measurable investments and measurable costs.  I'm just hoping that one or two of you (ideally folks with a nice slog of points) will trudge through the math to arrive at an average nightly cost.  I know it won't be exact.  Frankly, I'd be quite happy if someone has discovered the grail of affordability, flexibility and joy.



This is like debating the value and joy of going on a mid-priced, mass market Royal Caribbean cruise vs a luxury higher priced Seabourn cruise. Or staying at a moderately priced Marriott vs an expensive Ritz Carlton. Or buying a Toyota vs a Lexus. And so on and so on. Some of us know the math but have the means to stay at more upscale places because we like it. 

P.S. the incremental difference between Marriott weeks and points is not enough to make me lose sleep. I own weeks and points. I bought the points primary to use at the Ritz Carlton Residence Clubs bc you can't buy weeks there unless you pay a small fortune for a fractional.

We all have different budgets, goals and interests. No need to argue over it or try to prove a point. That is the nice thing about timeshares. There is something for everyone at low budgets, medium budgets and higher budgets.


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## TXTortoise (Apr 19, 2018)

I think it’s called discretionary income for a reason.


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## TravelTime (Apr 19, 2018)

OldPantry said:


> Hi Steve.  Sounds pretty great, 4500 points for $5.45 a point. Was that direct from Marriott, or a purchase on the open market?  And there's nothing else lurking in the background, like a prior purchase of weeks?  I'd say you drove a hard bargain with somebody.  Even so, I'm a bit struck by that $80 nightly figure.  It seems to me you might not be including all the costs.  Your maintenance fee on points should be something like $2370.  If you use all the 4500 points on a single plat 2BR week (not at all unlikely, as my own Ko Olina analysis shows), that comes to $339/night, plus the highly derided $30" loss" you give me.  So, $369/night.  But you did pay out something like $24,525 for the points.  That's money you don't have, money that might otherwise generate the 5% my bonds yield.  So, add in $1225, or $175/night.  So, really more like $544/night.  And isn't there a $195 yearly owner's fee? So, $570/night.  Of course, as I originally acknowledged, the nightly drops substantially if you tinker with off-season stays and smaller units.  Your talk of 90 studio nights yearly is enticing (but I bet you don't actually do anything like that).  Since my own analysis derives from 2BR plats at places like the destinations I own, I think it's fair to use that in comparing your situation.
> 
> At $570 a night for a plat 2BR, you've achieved flexibility at a far lower cost than reserving directly with Marriott.  Of course, that flexibility is hardly cheap compared to the alternative I've pursued.   Still, I thank you for providing some stats that make the points picture look less overwhelmingly bleak.  I'll take a look and see what ultra-cheap resale points cost, adjusted for all the friction involved in obtaining and registering them.



Before discovering timeshares, we were dumb consumers of mid-luxury level vacations. We traveled in 4-5 star hotel rooms and we were paying $400 to $600 a night and taking 2-3 week vacations to exotic and some not-too-exotic places for those prices. So to us, anything below that seems like a deal. We have stayed at many of the leading hotels of the world and enjoyed most of them (although not all, many are over-rated). Now that we have discovered timeshares, we think $2000-$2600 a week for an oceanfront 2 bedroom in Hawaii or the Caribbean is a bargain because we were paying $3500-$5000 a week for a hotel room. It's all relative.


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 19, 2018)

I came from redweek, there, people like to compare "outrageous timeshare MFs" with cheap hotel rooms. I guess you can look at it so many different ways! I learn new perspectives on timeshares each day here, amazing the myriad of uses and views.


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## TravelTime (Apr 19, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> OldPantry,
> 
> I took a stab at estimating our nightly cost since we in initially bought MVC in 2014. I included all trips taken, plus those scheduled, and included all maintenance fee costs, club dues, point rentals, etc. For years that we've already booked trips but not yet paid MF (2019), I estimated the fees at +5% from 2018.
> 
> ...



I see your point on the investment cost of capital. We used extra money we had lying around to buy our timeshares. Not money that we had targeted for investments. It was our play money. Also we used to spend double or triple per year on vacations in smaller hotel rooms. So for us, we are ahead with much bigger condo-like accommodations and guaranteed ocean front and/or ocean views. If we sell for less than we purchased, that is okay with us because we have paid very good prices on the resale market so we doubt it would be a huge reduction, especially after many years of usage.


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## OldPantry (Apr 20, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I see your point on the investment cost of capital. We used extra money we had lying around to buy our timeshares. Not money that we had targeted for investments. It was our play money. Also we used to spend double or triple per year on vacations in smaller hotel rooms. So for us, we are ahead with much bigger condo-like accommodations and guaranteed ocean front and/or ocean views. If we sell for less than we purchased, that is okay with us because we have paid very good prices on the resale market so we doubt it would be a huge reduction, especially after many years of usage.



Donning my Quixote hat, here's one last stab.  I'm seeing a lot of distinction between mad money (excess cash, available for any whim) and investment money.  You are aware, I hope, that money is money.  Basically, you spend it or invest it.  Maybe this will help clarify my meaning.  Say you had your $60 or $70K sitting in bonds (or Amazon stock), and decided to pull it out to buy a timeshare or points.  Even you guys would then acknowledge that you experienced opportunity cost, trading predictable (bonds) or unpredictable (Amazon) income for access to vacation lodging.  So why is money you could invest any different?  Making a distinction between money you don't intend to invest and money you do is arbitrary, a label stuck on something that is actually neutral.

At no point am I trying to scold you for spending money.  You must spend a good deal of it for basics: food, housing, cars (yes, cars too).  Beyond that you spend it for a host of other, perfectly justifiable, things.  Have at it.

Deferring spending lets you arrange future income that can then be spent.  Upfront spending works the opposite.   Just because the goal is discretionary (vacations) doesn't change the math.  And yes, I think you should use the logic of opportunity cost to a range of other things too.  So, yes to that snarky question of buying a car.  And yes, particularly to buying a house versus renting, or buying an expensive house versus a cheaper one. It's a tool to enable good decision making, not a noose to strangle fun.

BTW, my wife and I are now retired, and the bulk of our income comes from investments (yes, those moldy old bonds).  So, the dichotomy of spend/invest is ever present.  The bonds spin off interest bi-yearly.  I then have to decide whether to reinvest or spend.  And next month, again.  We're very thankful for the luxury of having to decide.


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 20, 2018)

OldPantry said:


> Donning my Quixote hat, here's one last stab.  I'm seeing a lot of distinction between mad money (excess cash, available for any whim) and investment money.  You are aware, I hope, that money is money.  Basically, you spend it or invest it.  Maybe this will help clarify my meaning.  Say you had your $60 or $70K sitting in bonds (or Amazon stock), and decided to pull it out to buy a timeshare or points.  Even you guys would then acknowledge that you experienced opportunity cost, trading predictable (bonds) or unpredictable (Amazon) income for access to vacation lodging.  So why is money you could invest any different?  Making a distinction between money you don't intend to invest and money you do is arbitrary, a label stuck on something that is actually neutral.
> 
> At no point am I trying to scold you for spending money.  You must spend a good deal of it for basics: food, housing, cars (yes, cars too).  Beyond that you spend it for a host of other, perfectly justifiable, things.  Have at it.
> 
> ...



Sure, then, add your opportunity cost to taking vacations without timeshare then, especially since that cost will be *far* higher over time. It makes no sense to not do so, it's a lot of money and think of all the money you'd have if you did not, and, it's certainly not a basic living requirement. Then I would say your scenario is more accurate.

Otherwise, using your logic, I should be behind the first so many years and adding this opportunity cost, then, break even, then, I would be ahead and investing that saved money due to the purchase that is saving me money each year and making 5%. So, there would be no added cost, there would be added income again making your math wrong. Instead, you should be subtracting that extra capital you are making money on to the night rental cost.

Finally, while you see no distinction between mad money and investment money, I do. My money was not making 5%, it was in a savings account and always would be. That's what that money is for. So, making 1% or .1% or whatever current worthless savings rates are. Your example again states the money is in bonds and was taken out to purchase timeshare. Different example.

If your final paragraph where you say you're retired and live off of bond interest, I understand your thinking. Just realize you are still taking that money out when taking a vacation had you had not purchased the timeshare. You simply cannot justify not adding that cost to the non timeshare part of the equation (too many negatives). This is your arbitrary distinction.

That being said, this is now an accounting discussion and really doesn't matter as far as points goes vs weeks.


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## TravelTime (Apr 20, 2018)

OldPantry said:


> Donning my Quixote hat, here's one last stab.  I'm seeing a lot of distinction between mad money (excess cash, available for any whim) and investment money.  You are aware, I hope, that money is money.  Basically, you spend it or invest it.  Maybe this will help clarify my meaning.  Say you had your $60 or $70K sitting in bonds (or Amazon stock), and decided to pull it out to buy a timeshare or points.  Even you guys would then acknowledge that you experienced opportunity cost, trading predictable (bonds) or unpredictable (Amazon) income for access to vacation lodging.  So why is money you could invest any different?  Making a distinction between money you don't intend to invest and money you do is arbitrary, a label stuck on something that is actually neutral.
> 
> At no point am I trying to scold you for spending money.  You must spend a good deal of it for basics: food, housing, cars (yes, cars too).  Beyond that you spend it for a host of other, perfectly justifiable, things.  Have at it.
> 
> ...



I think everyone understands your point but not everyone thinks of all buckets of their money the same way. I think we all know math and can spin the data many different ways to suit our beliefs. If I only thought the way you do, I would never go on vacations or buy anything expensive except take care of my basic needs. When I do think that way, I kick myself for all my bad investments (not timeshares but other things that really were supposed to be investments). But then I have to remember that everything balances and we have made some extremely great investments that allow us to have a bucket of play money.

However, I do think you have brought up a very good viewpoint for people who have never considered the opportunity cost of money. I have been aware of this concept since I learned economics in college. But many people are not aware so I am sure you are doing a service for many people on Tug who have never considered that they could invest the upfront cost of a timeshare in many other ways. Just like renting a house vs buying a house. Basically all financial decisions have an opportunity cost but you never know what it will be until after the fact because no one can predict the market.


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## TravelTime (Apr 20, 2018)

X


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## OldPantry (Apr 22, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I think everyone understands your point but not everyone thinks of all buckets of their money the same way. I think we all know math and can spin the data many different ways to suit our beliefs. If I only thought the way you do, I would never go on vacations or buy anything expensive except take care of my basic needs. When I do think that way, I kick myself for all my bad investments (not timeshares but other things that really were supposed to be investments). But then I have to remember that everything balances and we have made some extremely great investments that allow us to have a bucket of play money.
> 
> However, I do think you have brought up a very good viewpoint for people who have never considered the opportunity cost of money. I have been aware of this concept since I learned economics in college. But many people are not aware so I am sure you are doing a service for many people on Tug who have never considered that they could invest the upfront cost of a timeshare in many other ways. Just like renting a house vs buying a house. Basically all financial decisions have an opportunity cost but you never know what it will be until after the fact because no one can predict the market.


I'd be very sad if folks who "think the way I do" never went out of the house, or never went on vacation.  For one thing, *I *think that way, and we go out of the house on tons of vacations.  This year alone, Hawaii (two units, one 2BR, one 1BR for good friends, Maui (2BR), Newport (2BR), a VRBO house near Yosemite, a car trip to drop my son off at Stanford, a car trip to Banff for a 1BR week, New Orleans for a family reunion over Thanksgiving, and finally, a giant blow-off of Marriott points for five nights at the Ritz-Carlton over New Years.  I bet that last one will bring a thunderstorm of criticism!  Being aware of the true cost of things doesn't mean you don't do them, just perhaps do them better than you used to.


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## TravelTime (Apr 22, 2018)

OldPantry said:


> I'd be very sad if folks who "think the way I do" never went out of the house, or never went on vacation.  For one thing, *I *think that way, and we go out of the house on tons of vacations.  This year alone, Hawaii (two units, one 2BR, one 1BR for good friends, Maui (2BR), Newport (2BR), a VRBO house near Yosemite, a car trip to drop my son off at Stanford, a car trip to Banff for a 1BR week, New Orleans for a family reunion over Thanksgiving, and finally, a giant blow-off of Marriott points for five nights at the Ritz-Carlton over New Years.  I bet that last one will bring a thunderstorm of criticism!  Being aware of the true cost of things doesn't mean you don't do them, just perhaps do them better than you used to.



I am not against knowing the true cost of things. Several of us have agreed that Marriott Points are more expensive than Marriott Weeks and those of us who own Points bought them for different reasons. Many of us own both Weeks and Points.


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## Steve Fatula (Apr 22, 2018)

OldPantry said:


> I'd be very sad if folks who "think the way I do" never went out of the house, or never went on vacation.  For one thing, *I *think that way, and we go out of the house on tons of vacations.  This year alone, Hawaii (two units, one 2BR, one 1BR for good friends, Maui (2BR), Newport (2BR), a VRBO house near Yosemite, a car trip to drop my son off at Stanford, a car trip to Banff for a 1BR week, New Orleans for a family reunion over Thanksgiving, and finally, a giant blow-off of Marriott points for five nights at the Ritz-Carlton over New Years.  I bet that last one will bring a thunderstorm of criticism!  Being aware of the true cost of things doesn't mean you don't do them, just perhaps do them better than you used to.



Well, for some people, knowing the "true value" would stop them from going. I know lots of people who don't vacation because it's too expensive, but can afford it. Myself, I would never criticize you for taking a trip, esp for New Years at a Ritz! If you are like me, older, we worked hard, saved money, did ok, and now we should enjoy it.


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