# How to not get accused of renting?



## lotus921v (Nov 7, 2022)

So I’ve added my parents, and my brother and his wife to some small contracts to avoid having to use RT on them.  I was thinking about gifting some vacations to my longest serving employees but am terrified of getting accused of commercial use?

mine are  all resale so I’m limited to two RT total for the year.

how to I stay off their radar?  I’m doing nothing wrong!


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## am1 (Nov 7, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> So I’ve added my parents, and my brother and his wife to some small contracts to avoid having to use RT on them.  I was thinking about gifting some vacations to my longest serving employees but am terrified of getting accused of commercial use?
> 
> mine are  all resale so I’m limited to two RT total for the year.
> 
> how to I stay off their radar?  I’m doing nothing wrong!


Book places and times that no one would ever try to rent at?  Surely that is a parameter they use to see who is actually in the rental game.


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## Jan M. (Nov 7, 2022)

This is what I would do. Start an email with the recipient to be added when you call Owner Care. On the subject line I would put "Potential guests for 2023". In the email explain that you intend on gifting your longest serving employees with vacations in 2023, destinations to be determined, and list those employees names. After you get it typed up then call and get put through to Owner Care. Explain what your plans are and ask for that person's Wyndham email address so you can send them the list of names and have them note that information in your email on your account. They may also suggest you send that email to Owner Strategies too.

It would be a good idea to include your business name and the address of the business.


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## lost patience (Nov 8, 2022)

I called to ask exactly such a question.  The answer - if I am sharing my points with employees, then for sure I'm using my points for business use.  IE 100% commercial use.


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## lotus921v (Nov 8, 2022)

lost patience said:


> I called to ask exactly such a question.  The answer - if I am sharing my points with employees, then for sure I'm using my points for business use.  IE 100% commercial use.


As odd as this sounds, my employees are my friends.  It’s not a perk of the job.  It’s because I really like them.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Nov 8, 2022)

@lotus921v
You could deposit points into RCI - make an exchange reservation & gift that vacation . There is an exchange fee and guest fee.

Also RCI has extra vacations and last call vacations . Both require a cash outlay and the guest fee for your friends to use.


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## Jan M. (Nov 8, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> As odd as this sounds, my employees are my friends.  It’s not a perk of the job.  It’s because I really like them.



I don't know who @lost patience spoke with but the answer they got strikes me as the hardass responses owners who got letters are getting from Owner Strategies or Owner Care as passed down from Owner Strategies. Owner Strategies job is to shut down owners disingenuous claims of but this or that and I'm not really renting if it's... 

Would you ever also be staying at the resort(s) at the same time? I've gotten the impression it's seen differently when they look at your useage.

I'm guessing you don't have a long list of people you'd be gifting with vacations. So word the email I suggested something like this. In 2023 it is my intent to treat Sam Smith, Jim Johnson and Mike Miller to vacations at resorts and dates not yet determined. I will not be accepting money nor any other form of compensation for the points used or guest certificates for their stays.


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 8, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> As odd as this sounds, my employees are my friends.  It’s not a perk of the job.  It’s because I really like them.


So my husband worked for someone who loved Hawaii. There were about 50 employees at the time. Every single one of them went over there at least once (we went 4 times). He built a house over there on the Big Island. He had the house and a lanai with 2 more condo type apartments. Anyone was welcome, any time. We took our family, and both our Moms over there once. When the house was done, everyone but my husband (someone had to tend shop) went over for the house warming party. My husband and I got a conciliatory trip to Europe.


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## lotus921v (Nov 8, 2022)

ok thank you.


Jan M. said:


> I don't know who @lost patience spoke with but the answer they got strikes me as the hardass responses owners who got letters are getting from Owner Strategies or Owner Care as passed down from Owner Strategies. Owner Strategies job is to shut down owners disingenuous claims of but this or that and I'm not really renting if it's...
> 
> Would you ever also be staying at the resort(s) at the same time? I've gotten the impression it's seen differently when they look at your useage.
> 
> I'm guessing you don't have a long list of people you'd be gifting with vacations. So word the email I suggested something like this. In 2023 it is my intent to treat Sam Smith, Jim Johnson and Mike Miller to vacations at resorts and dates not yet determined. I will not be accepting money nor any other form of compensation for the points used or guest certificates for their stays.


i like that, thank you!

it’s definitely going to be a set list of people.  Maybe 5 or
6 max total and not even everybody in the same year.


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## bnoble (Nov 8, 2022)

You know, you could just send them on a vacation using RCI (exchanges or getaways) and not have to worry about it.


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## Eric B (Nov 8, 2022)

bnoble said:


> You know, you could just send them on a vacation using RCI (exchanges or getaways) and not have to worry about it.



That is always a possibility, but someone should be able to gift their ownership rights without having to worry about it. Not to mention the incremental cost (profit to Wyndham, of course) over the existing costs. There should be some rational balance - it does sound like some folks in Owner Strategies would characterize the return of friendship and thanks for a gift of a vacation as a quid pro qui that makes gifting a commercial activity. That seems disingenuous and I’d hate to be a friend of theirs, if they have any.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 8, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> ok thank you.
> 
> i like that, thank you!
> 
> ...



Boy oh boy - this sounds like a perfect use for the Friends & Family feature that has been repeatedly brought up as an enhancement request...


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 8, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> This is what I would do. Start an email with the recipient to be added when you call Owner Care. On the subject line I would put "Potential guests for 2023". In the email explain that you intend on gifting your longest serving employees with vacations in 2023, destinations to be determined, and list those employees names. After you get it typed up then call and get put through to Owner Care. Explain what your plans are and ask for that person's Wyndham email address so you can send them the list of names and have them note that information in your email on your account. They may also suggest you send that email to Owner Strategies too.
> 
> It would be a good idea to include your business name and the address of the business.


If that would work, it would be amazing.  I would love to gift some friends of ours that have kids with disabilities, but I told them I would have to get them Marriott and not Wyndham because I cannot add guests.  Our son has a store and has some great employees he would love to gift a vacation for an extra bonus.


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 8, 2022)

I would make sure to follow the owner priority rules. Personally, I don't use the 2 exceptions  (I haven't on purpose and like the cushion of what if I mess up). I'm very careful to follow owner priority rules.

Don't poke the bear.


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## bnoble (Nov 8, 2022)

Eric B said:


> someone should be able to gift their ownership rights without having to worry about it.


Agreed. I'd really like to live in that world. But it does not appear to be the world in which we live.


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## am1 (Nov 8, 2022)

All a joke that current owners are accepting this.  But its your money and stress.


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## lost patience (Nov 9, 2022)

am1 said:


> All a joke that current owners are accepting this.  But its your money and stress.


Yes, this threat is causing me stress.  What path would you suggest that we take to effect a change?


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## lost patience (Nov 9, 2022)

My call was to title.   I do own a business.  I called just to see if there was any option other than adding employees to a deed, something I'm not going to do.   I knew the answer before I called, but sometimes it is worth calling just to confirm I had not missed an option.   We do send employees to two or three conventions where there are convenient Wyndham resorts.   In previous years we were  generous and booked several 1br units so that each employee had their own room.  This year, one time we booked a 3br that 4 employees used.  Instead of their own unit, they each had their own bed.  This used 1 guest certificate instead of 4.  Another time I attended the conference as well and was able to book a 2br.  Two employees stayed with me and another 2 stayed in a hotel.  A 3rd conference we decided to skip.   All told:  We used one guest certificate instead of the normal 15 for our convention trips.  Why?  So that our account would not be flagged as commercial.   We also used a few guest certificates for friends who traveled at the same time as us on non convention trips.  Plus a couple for my sister and her family.  The representative in title is the one that said, "your convention use is commercial".    In previous years we have had 5-10 owner reservations and 20 to 30 guest reservations.   The postings here and on facebook, as well as chats with other owners while at Wyndham resorts led me to believe that this year we would have been targeted.    We as owners did not travel any more this year - we moved points to 2024 that were extra caused by decreased use during these conventions.    We used to receive 15 to 30 complimentary guest certs (we had a glitch with our account), now we receive 15, but we are not allowed to use the 15.    We planned on the convention use in our usage calculations when purchasing.   It is beyond frustrating that we are changing our usage in order to not be identified as commercial.


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## Rolltydr (Nov 9, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> So I’ve added my parents, and my brother and his wife to some small contracts to avoid having to use RT on them.  I was thinking about gifting some vacations to my longest serving employees but am terrified of getting accused of commercial use?
> 
> mine are  all resale so I’m limited to two RT total for the year.
> 
> how to I stay off their radar?  I’m doing nothing wrong!


If you are truly “gifting” them and not charging a rental fee, I don’t see how you would have a problem. You’re not advertising for rentals and you have no income from them. There is no commercial use. If your ”gift” is actually a cheap rental, that might be another story.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 9, 2022)

am1 said:


> All a joke that current owners are accepting this.  But its your money and stress.


I agree with that.  We shouldn't be worrying about whether we can add friends to reservations.  It's ridiculous.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 9, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> If you are truly “gifting” them and not charging a rental fee, I don’t see how you would have a problem. You’re not advertising for rentals and you have no income from them. There is no commercial use. If your ”gift” is actually a cheap rental, that might be another story.


That is no guarantee that you won't be accused of renting.  Some owners have been accused of renting, when in fact they do not rent.


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## Snippy (Nov 9, 2022)

I was chatting with an owner while at a Wyndham resort last week.   He said they used 5 reservations under owner names and 4 guest certificates.  Those guest certificates were used for relatives and they are repeat relatives over several years of wyndham ownership.  In October, they received the letter accusing them of commercial.  Wyndham's campaign to increase owner usage has gone to far in my opinion!


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 9, 2022)

Snippy said:


> I was chatting with an owner while at a Wyndham resort last week.   He said they used 5 reservations under owner names and 4 guest certificates.  Those guest certificates were used for relatives and they are repeat relatives over several years of wyndham ownership.  In October, they received the letter accusing them of commercial.  Wyndham's campaign to increase owner usage has gone to far in my opinion!


I have seen reports of this over the last 16 months.


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## lotus921v (Nov 9, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I have seen reports of this over the last 16 months.




THIS is what I am super concerned about!


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 9, 2022)

Snippy said:


> I was chatting with an owner while at a Wyndham resort last week.   He said they used 5 reservations under owner names and 4 guest certificates.  Those guest certificates were used for relatives and they are repeat relatives over several years of wyndham ownership.  In October, they received the letter accusing them of commercial.  Wyndham's campaign to increase owner usage has gone to far in my opinion!



From what we have observed - there are ratios involved contributing to these cease and desist letters being received.  If a certain percentage of your points allotments are being consumed via reservations attached to GCs - roughly around 50% or greater - then in some circumstances it appears that owners may receive commercial use warning letters.  Since Wyndham doesn't provide a clear definition of what commercial use constitutes - it's anyone's guess really - but appearances at least indicate if a majority of your points are being consumed by reservations attached to GCs and not attached to owners listed on the account - or if you are creating more reservations numerically attached to GCs than reservations strictly for personal use by owners listed on the account - it's feasible a warning letter may be generated.  In cases where the owner is truly only using points for Friends & Family - I would recommend responding back to the warning letters with evidence challenging the supposition from Wyndham that commercial use is occurring.  Additionally, if _any _type of advertising is used - even for a single rental reservation - and Wyndham picks up on it somehow - or if a GC guest checks in at a resort they don't indicate that they know the owner personally (and can actually validate this on some level), then a cease and desist letter may be generated.  There isn't any one rule in place-  there are multiple rules functioning here from what we have gathered.


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## chapjim (Nov 9, 2022)

Clearly, there are a number of "triggers" for the cease and desist letters.  But from reports, the letters have been sent to some owners with no apparent triggers present.  If Wyndham is sending letters and allowing the owner to respond, I think that sounds reasonable.  If Wyndham is summarily cancelling reservations, that is not reasonable.

I received "the letter" last October.  I no longer rent any Wyndham reservations.  However, I have two reservations next spring that I have offered to my adult children.  When I get the guest confirmations, I hope Wyndham doesn't cancel the two reservations because I am a tainted owner.  I can handle a response to a letter that inquires or accuses me of renting/commercial use.  I can't handle a cancellation at Bonnet Creek the week my grandchildren are out of school.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 9, 2022)

chapjim said:


> Clearly, there are a number of "triggers" for the cease and desist letters.  But from reports, the letters have been sent to some owners with no apparent triggers present.  If Wyndham is sending letters and allowing the owner to respond, I think that sounds reasonable.  If Wyndham is summarily cancelling reservations, that is not reasonable.
> 
> I received "the letter" last October.  I no longer rent any Wyndham reservations.  However, I have two reservations next spring that I have offered to my adult children.  When I get the guest confirmations, I hope Wyndham doesn't cancel the two reservations because I am a tainted owner.  I can handle a response to a letter that inquires or accuses me of renting/commercial use.  I can't handle a cancellation at Bonnet Creek the week my grandchildren are out of school.



My understanding is that there are two types of letters being received that are sequential in nature.  There's the initial letter - the one you received in other words - and then there's a second letter that indicates - due to repeated continuous infractions - that GC usage is being suspended - typically for no less than 90 days - and existing reservations with GCs are subject to cancellation.  That said - this is third party information - so it would be useful if someone who has actually been through the entire process and has had GC usage suspended and existing GC reservations actually forcibly cancelled could validate here on TUG firsthand.


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## noreenkate (Nov 9, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> My understanding is that there are two types of letters being received that are sequential in nature.  There's the initial letter - the one you received in other words - and then there's a second letter that indicates - due to repeated continuous infractions - that GC usage is being suspended - typically for no less than 90 days - and existing reservations with GCs are subject to cancellation.  That said - this is third party information - so it would be useful if someone who has actually been through the entire process and has had GC usage suspended and existing GC reservations actually forcibly cancelled could validate here on TUG firsthand.



i had picked up a contract on ebay - 
recieved a letter from Wyndham that the contract had previously been a “rental problem” and a warning about using any guest certificates…Letter came before I even knew my account had been set-up…my account was FLAGGED before I had a login!

whil I have no intention of renting- I do hope to able to allow my adult children and family friends to use guest certificates- that are supposed to be available


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 9, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> i had picked up a contract on ebay -
> recieved a letter from Wyndham that the contract had previously been a “rental problem” and a warning about using any guest certificates…Letter came before I even knew my account had been set-up…my account was FLAGGED before I had a login!
> 
> whil I have no intention of renting- I do hope to able to allow my adult children and family friends to use guest certificates- that are supposed to be available


That's nuts. They are saying by association you are guilty?  That is really despicable of Wyndham to make assumptions like that.


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## Rolltydr (Nov 9, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> That is no guarantee that you won't be accused of renting.  Some owners have been accused of renting, when in fact they do not rent.


 You can be accused of anything. It doesn’t mean you’re guilty. And, even if Wyndham accuses someone of running a commercial rental enterprise, that isn’t a crime. You can’t go to jail or be fined for it. The absolute worst that can happen is that Wyndham doesn’t allow you to give free vacations to your family and friends. Maybe it’s because I don’t have enough points to do that anyway, but I just don’t see that as a big deal. Find other gifts for them.


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## noreenkate (Nov 9, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> That's nuts. They are saying by association you are guilty?  That is really despicable of Wyndham to make assumptions like that.



That’s the thing - I have no association action w/original owner and it was an eBay purchase so as far as I know no way to check if the contact was ever used for rentals…but thier past “bad acts” by Wyndham standards tainted the contact I now own


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## am1 (Nov 9, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> You can be accused of anything. It doesn’t mean you’re guilty. And, even if Wyndham accuses someone of running a commercial rental enterprise, that isn’t a crime. You can’t go to jail or be fined for it. The absolute worst that can happen is that Wyndham doesn’t allow you to give free vacations to your family and friends. Maybe it’s because I don’t have enough points to do that anyway, but I just don’t see that as a big deal. Find other gifts for them.


Wow what a side to take?  Because it does not affect you who cares?


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## lotus921v (Nov 9, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> That’s the thing - I have no association action w/original owner and it was an eBay purchase so as far as I know no way to check if the contact was ever used for rentals…but thier past “bad acts” by Wyndham standards tainted the contact I now own




Can you submit a copy of the eBay transaction and have them remove it from your account?

So many people are divesting from their contracts because of the crackdown, it would be insane that they punish people that purchase it on good will!


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## Jan M. (Nov 9, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> i had picked up a contract on ebay -
> recieved a letter from Wyndham that the contract had previously been a “rental problem” and a warning about using any guest certificates…Letter came before I even knew my account had been set-up…my account was FLAGGED before I had a login!
> 
> whil I have no intention of renting- I do hope to able to allow my adult children and family friends to use guest certificates- that are supposed to be available



I don't remember her eBay user name but a number of people bought contracts in 2021 from Yvonne Michelson when Wyndham forced her to downsize what she owned. She was the owner with 4 accounts/65 million points and 40 reservations at Glacier Canyon over Thanksgiving 2020. That's what started all of this.

She wasn't allowed to add any guest names for a year and that restriction for the remaining months was passed on to anyone who bought one of her contracts/deeds.

When the transfer paperwork was sent to the Wyndham title department they contacted the new owners informing them of the conditions they had to accept before Wyndham would complete the transfer. Some people accepted the conditions; others sought recourse through eBay to cancel the sale and get their money back.

She's who we know a great deal about but there were other owners too in the first few months of the purge. You might have bought from one of them.


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## bnoble (Nov 9, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> She wasn't allowed to add any guest names for a year and that restriction for the remaining months was passed on to anyone who bought one of her contracts/deeds.


Every rule has a specific instance behind it. I suspect either she or someone else tried to do a gratuitous transfer to get around the restrictions and continue the business.

Of course, it's also true that Wyndham can be petty. It seems clear from what we've read here that e.g. the answer for Certified Exit sometimes depends on who is doing the asking, and not what they are asking about.


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## noreenkate (Nov 9, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> I don't remember her eBay user name but a number of people bought contracts in 2021 from Yvonne Michelson when Wyndham forced her to downsize what she owned. She was the owner with 4 accounts/65 million points and 40 reservations at Glacier Canyon over Thanksgiving 2020. That's what started all of this.
> 
> She wasn't allowed to add any guest names for a year and that restriction for the remaining months was passed on to anyone who bought one of her contracts/deeds.
> 
> ...



To be honest- I think it’s pretty $&@“ up customer service for Wyndham to punish the contract…and the _ new_ owner-

I dunno but  to me it’s like the idea of registering  a used car- if the previous owner had DWIs do I need to have an a interlock ignition installed? No that would be silly lol nor would the purchase of the car require my license to be suspended until theirs is cleared up…Which is especially what Wyndham did -suspended my owner privileges.

honesty haven’t taken first trip yet with Wyndham , but it’s been a process this first year-


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## Rolltydr (Nov 9, 2022)

am1 said:


> Wow what a side to take?  Because it does not affect you who cares?


Exactly. There are an infinite number of things that I, and many others, can’t gift to people for a myriad of reasons. If someone can’t gift a vacation to someone, gift something else that you can. If it is truly a gift, and not a way to surreptitiously rent a unit in order to recoup your maintenance fees, what difference does it make? Is a vacation the only thing you can give that both makes you feel good for giving, and that your giftee will truly appreciate?


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## lotus921v (Nov 9, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> Exactly. There are an infinite number of things that I, and many others, can’t gift to people for a myriad of reasons. If someone can’t gift a vacation to someone, gift something else that you can. If it is truly a gift, and not a way to surreptitiously rent a unit in order to recoup your maintenance fees, what difference does it make? Is a vacation the only thing you can give that both makes you feel good for giving, and that your giftee will truly appreciate?




You can gift something else, sure, but if it keeps points from going to waste, it seems goofy to let them go to waste while gifting something else


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## Rolltydr (Nov 9, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> You can gift something else, sure, but if it keeps points from going to waste, it seems goofy to let them go to waste while gifting something else


While your points may be going to waste, perhaps the unit is actually being used by another owner?

Look, I don‘t care if people gift their points, as long as it actually is a gift. I just fail to see why everybody gets so worked up about it if they can’t. After being a member of this forum for several years and reading thousands of posts about owners renting their points, and how upset they were, still are, when told they couldn’t do that any longer, forgive me if I think this is more about the loss of rental income than it is about a heartfelt gift.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 9, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> i had picked up a contract on ebay -
> recieved a letter from Wyndham that the contract had previously been a “rental problem” and a warning about using any guest certificates…Letter came before I even knew my account had been set-up…my account was FLAGGED before I had a login!
> 
> whil I have no intention of renting- I do hope to able to allow my adult children and family friends to use guest certificates- that are supposed to be available



That's interesting to observe.  Almost seems as if contracts can be flagged in the system, in addition to the actual owner accounts.  Otherwise why would this have occurred?  In that case - any such flag should have been reset during contract transfer.


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## chapjim (Nov 9, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> While your points may be going to waste, *perhaps the unit is actually being used by another owner*?
> 
> Look, I don‘t care if people gift their points, as long as it actually is a gift. I just fail to see why everybody gets so worked up about it if they can’t. After being a member of this forum for several years and reading thousands of posts about owners renting their points, and how upset they were, still are, when told they couldn’t do that any longer, forgive me if I think this is more about the loss of rental income than it is about a heartfelt gift.



Is there any other realm in which you think someone should be as solicitous about other similarly situated persons?  Do you avoid going out to dinner because you might be using a seat that someone else could use?  How about going to the theater?  Taking the bus to work?

It is outrageous to suggest that someone should accept points going to waste because someone else might be able to use the unit.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 9, 2022)

chapjim said:


> Is there any other realm in which you think someone should be as solicitous about other similarly situated persons?  Do you avoid going out to dinner because you might be using a seat that someone else could use?  How about going to the theater?  Taking the bus to work?
> 
> It is outrageous to suggest that someone should accept points going to waste because someone else might be able to use the unit.


I love this because it is a great argument. 

If Wyndham didn't have so many units left within 60 days, just sitting online for the taking, many of us wouldn't have taken advantage.  These units were sitting online in the discount window for Platinum/ Founder's level of ownership.  

If the unit was there for me, it was there for you.


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## Rolltydr (Nov 9, 2022)

chapjim said:


> Is there any other realm in which you think someone should be as solicitous about other similarly situated persons?  Do you avoid going out to dinner because you might be using a seat that someone else could use?  How about going to the theater?  Taking the bus to work?
> 
> It is outrageous to suggest that someone should accept points going to waste because someone else might be able to use the unit.


Simply stating a fact, Jim. Use of the unit for a specific timeframe is the objective. IMO, if the unit is used for those days, it is not a waste. The points, potentially, can be used at a later date, or donated as a gift, to our military retirees. That would be a nice gift, too.


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 9, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> Can you submit a copy of the eBay transaction and have them remove it from your account?
> 
> So many people are divesting from their contracts because of the crackdown, it would be insane that they punish people that purchase it on good will!


Well... unless that incentivizes people to just give their contracts back to Wyndham (Certified Exit) because someone might think twice before purchasing a tainted contract. @noreenkate, would you have purchased resale on eBay knowing you were obtaining a 'tainted' contract?

More free contracts for Wyndham, cha ching, cha ching!


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## noreenkate (Nov 9, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> Well... unless that incentivizes people to just give their contracts back to Wyndham (Certified Exit) because someone might think twice before purchasing a tainted contract. @noreenkate, would you have purchased resale on eBay knowing you were obtaining a 'tainted' contract?
> 
> More free contracts for Wyndham, cha ching, cha ching!


No I would not have!


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 9, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> No I would not have!


Neither would I. I swear a team of psychiatrists is running the show at Wyndham, that's my consipiracy theory.

Did you have an estoppel?  I'm curious if it would be disclosed there. Did you purchase from a reseller or directly from a previous owner? I wonder if they knew your contract would have a special designation.


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## jules54 (Nov 9, 2022)

am1 said:


> All a joke that current owners are accepting this.  But its your money and stress.


Do you have any suggestions of what owners should do to not accept it? Wyndham is the boss/bully here what they say is law period. I find it ridiculous that owners can’t send friends, family, neighbors, employees on trips with the points we have bought and paid for.


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## paxsarah (Nov 9, 2022)

jules54 said:


> Do you have any suggestions of what owners should do to not accept it?


I too wonder what the alternative is. It seems that owners' main option is to vote with their feet, which many owners with sunk costs are understandably loathe to do. My other tactic when I'm feeling particularly riled up about a policy with no avenue to pursue it is to write a postal letter. At least I get it off my chest and on the record, even if I have no hope it will be acted on.


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## Snippy (Nov 9, 2022)

Details I gleaned from the owner I chatted with last week.  
- 5 owner use this year. 
- 4 guest certificates this year. Of these, 2 were independent of an owner stay. 2 were at the same time as an owner stay. 2 of the guests were his sisters, not sure on the other 2. 
- points used for owner reservations exceeded points used for guest reservations.  
He called the number on the letter.  He reported that the people in this dept were robots.   They essentially repeated the words in the letter back to him.  They told him there was nothing he could do to have this flag removed. 

All of us as owners are paying for the staff of this department.  While at the same time paymenus is still full of errors.  Dual login is sketchy at best.  etc, etc, etcc.


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## chapjim (Nov 9, 2022)

jules54 said:


> Do you have any suggestions of what owners should do to not accept it? Wyndham is the boss/bully here what they say is law period. I find it ridiculous that owners can’t send friends, family, neighbors, employees on trips with the points we have bought and paid for.


.
Wyndham owns the bus.  Wyndham drives the bus.  We can stay on or get off.  Those are the choices.  It's ointment or suppositories.


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## noreenkate (Nov 9, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> Neither would I. I swear a team of psychiatrists is running the show at Wyndham, that's my consipiracy theory.
> 
> Did you have an estoppel?  I'm curious if it would be disclosed there. Did you purchase from a reseller or directly from a previous owner? I wonder if they knew your contract would have a special designation.



No I didn’t get an estoppel first- it was from a re-seller, they usually from what I have seen have thier own made up handwritten ones did they know? possibly- do I think resellers care probably not…

Buying resale on eBay implies a risk. I know that I understood that and tried to keep the risk to an acceptable level… in total I picked up 5 contracts from eBay and got bit once, and more like a nip than I bite as we will traveling on those points soon…and I paid considerably less than I had been expecting too



******My question is would that actually show on a legit estoppel from Wyndham*******

that said is there any way for a resale buyer to protect themselves from this no idea…because I think there will be more like this in the future


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## Jan M. (Nov 9, 2022)

Snippy said:


> Details I gleaned from the owner I chatted with last week.
> - 5 owner use this year.
> - 4 guest certificates this year. Of these, 2 were independent of an owner stay. 2 were at the same time as an owner stay. 2 of the guests were his sisters, not sure on the other 2.
> - points used for owner reservations exceeded points used for guest reservations.
> ...



From what I've seen here on TUG and Facebook and heard from owners I know there is no explaining, arguing your case or chance of a different outcome when you do manage to actually speak to someone in Owner Strategies. It's their job to make it very clear that you're sol with no appeal.

It helps to understand why Wyndham is doing what they're whether or not we approve of or condone how they're going about it.

Wyndham bought out Fairfield/Cendant in 2006. Prior to 2021 the few measures that were taken to control renting were predictably ineffective. By 2021 it wasn't just the megarenters it was a number of smaller owners renting "just to cover their maintenance fees" and more and more wanting to learn how to do that. Unfortunately when problems get too far out of hand there's rarely an easy fix. I've said before that Michael Brown has had a number of challenges to handle since he took over as CEO in 2017. I can't see him tolerating having this problem jump up to bite them again in the future. If legal can't successfully win in defining what constitutes commercial renting there are always other ways to work around that. Duh, that's what lawyers do and why companies have legal departments.

Not long ago I started a thread looking for discussion about what if we could have a Friends & Family list and how it might work. It might not be the answer to the problem facing owners who truly aren't renting but there has to be an answer.


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 9, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> No I didn’t get an estoppel first- it was from a re-seller, they usually from what I have seen have thier own made up handwritten ones did they know? possibly- do I think resellers care probably not…
> 
> Buying resale on eBay implies a risk. I know that I understood that and tried to keep the risk to an acceptable level… in total I picked up 5 contracts from eBay and got bit once, and more like a nip than I bite as we will traveling on those points soon…and I paid considerably less than I had been expecting too
> 
> ...


I don't the answer, sorry. The only situation I had heard of with this happening was Yvonne that Jan mentioned (and I probably heard about that from Jan). And in that situation, I thought the buyers were called and recorded by Wyndham title, agreeing to the terms, and had a chance to back out. Leaving Yvonne is a bad situation. It sure stinks if this could become an ongoing thing. It'll hurt resale, I would think, and likely not a coincidence.

I wonder if you can ask title if it would have been noted on the estoppel? For future reference, perhaps.  Actually, I think you could ask for an estoppel for your contract, there's no charge, might be interesting to see what it looks like.


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## noreenkate (Nov 9, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> I don't the answer, sorry. The only situation I had heard of with this happening was Yvonne that Jan mentioned (and I probably heard about that from Jan). And in that situation, I thought the buyers were called and recorded by Wyndham title, agreeing to the terms, and had a chance to back out. Leaving Yvonne is a bad situation. It sure stinks if this could become an ongoing thing. It'll hurt resale, I would think, and likely not a coincidence.
> 
> I wonder if you can ask title if it would have been noted on the estoppel? For future reference, perhaps.  Actually, I think you could ask for an estoppel for your contract, there's no charge, might be interesting to see what it looks like.



Don’t get me wrong it’s a $&@@ policy-

and I am pissy about it- but my kids so far have made really great use of RCI last calls and my II traders with no issues…the tiny Wyndham contracts I purchased are very much for my enjoyment- they know they are welcome to join me


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 9, 2022)

I have a bunch of estoppels I recently received from Wyndham, and there is nothing on mine in the way of a warning to a new buyer.  I was a "mega renter."


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## am1 (Nov 9, 2022)

I would fight them and call and e-mail everyday.  But be careful what you wish for.  This is what some of you wanted and still want?  My question is if the owners you could never be on the ball to get the top places weeks before are now able to get them by way of a dictatorish policy who is booking the mud weeks and certified dumps that the said group above use to book?  Other then my suggestion a few days ago to book those weeks for friends and families to stay way under the radar as no one would ever book those to rent.


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## chapjim (Nov 9, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> Simply stating a fact, Jim. Use of the unit for a specific timeframe is the objective. IMO, if the unit is used for those days, it is not a waste. The points, potentially, can be used at a later date, or donated as a gift, to our military retirees. That would be a nice gift, too.



You're right, RT, it is a fact albeit a trivial one.  Actually, it is a tautology.

If ever you are out of work, you would fit right in in Wyndham's Owner Care department.  (Owner Care --  that right there is funny!)


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## lost patience (Nov 9, 2022)

@am1   I appreciate the word you have chosen:  dictatorish   - This is just wrong.  @chapjim is worried about a vacation for his grandchildren.  @noreenkate bought a resale that "came" with a flag!!! @Snippy shared a 5 owner/4 guest usage,  I chose to make major changes to our normal usage that negatively impacted me.   I've seen many posts on here and on facebook.  I'm ready to join in complaining.   @rickandcindy23  mentioned contacting state attorney general.       @am1  suggests emails and phone calls.   Is there a physical address we can write to as well?


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## jules54 (Nov 10, 2022)

chapjim said:


> .
> Wyndham owns the bus.  Wyndham drives the bus.  We can stay on or get off.  Those are the choices.  It's ointment or suppositories.


I agree with that. The reason I asked if anyone has suggestions is AM1 posted that he couldn’t believe owners were putting up with What is happening. Folks are definitely getting off the bus. I understand totally why others are riding along for now. I would think it was somewhat paralyzing emotionally and financially if someone had 100’s of thousands of dollars spent on there programs. Wyndham gives an equal opportunity screwing. Doesn’t matter how big or small your point ownership is if the metric spit your name out your toast.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 10, 2022)

jules54 said:


> I agree with that. The reason I asked if anyone has suggestions is AM1 posted that he couldn’t believe owners were putting up with What is happening. Folks are definitely getting off the bus. I understand totally why others are riding along for now. I would think it was somewhat paralyzing emotionally and financially if someone had 100’s of thousands of dollars spent on there programs. Wyndham gives an equal opportunity screwing. Doesn’t matter how big or small your point ownership is if the metric spit your name out your toast.



Wondering out loud here.  This all seems intentional on Wyndham's part on some level.  Encouraging legacy VIP owners to exit the system - while encouraging net new owners who don't have any knowledge of past events at the same time.  It does almost seem as if the easy recycling of contracts via Certified Exit to net new owners (or perhaps to Wyndham as the owner of such contracts to do with whatever they decide) is by design.  Trying to actually see the forest through the trees here so to speak, as opposed to not seeing the forest for the trees (we're getting too caught up in the details in other words).


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## Snippy (Nov 10, 2022)

100% agree with you @HitchHiker71 .   Push the old VIP owners out.  Take back their contracts.  Sell them again.  This time, those new owners will likely NOT be VIP, thus will use full points for all their reservations.   And, new VIP do NOT get unlimited housekeeping


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 10, 2022)

jules54 said:


> I agree with that. The reason I asked if anyone has suggestions is AM1 posted that he couldn’t believe owners were putting up with What is happening. Folks are definitely getting off the bus. I understand totally why others are riding along for now. I would think it was somewhat paralyzing emotionally and financially if someone had 100’s of thousands of dollars spent on there programs. Wyndham gives an equal opportunity screwing. Doesn’t matter how big or small your point ownership is if the metric spit your name out your toast.


And Wyndham gets all of the rentals through Extra Holidays.  Wyndham has a monopoly on ads through Airbnb and VRBO.  I know that for a fact.  Wyndham would love to have every rental dollar and then share a portion of the money with the owner of the points, but no guarantees you will come out even.  It's truly a monopoly, but who pays the MF's to keep the resorts maintained?  

I didn't invest much in my resale, nor did we invest much in our develper points.  I am divesting of resale because you cannot fight city hall, nor can you fight a huge company like Wyndham.  It's just a waste of time and effort and money on lawyers.  I never even considered that for a moment.  

In the meanwhile, I am closing on some of my giveaway contracts myself to save money.  I wish I had information at my fingertips on the Wyndham site but had to ask for estoppels.  I didn't receive 100% of the estoppels.  I have to figure out what I didn't get but cannot see my account to figure it out.  I am not in a good position to transfer everything one taker wants.  That is entirely Wyndham's fault.  No estoppels and no way for me to see which ones I am missing.  

Although my dear husband says I should have written down each contract # on a spreadsheet.  He is always so helpful with the obvious.


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## Snippy (Nov 10, 2022)

@rickandcindy23   I seem to remember you mentioning that you had contacted the Florida Attorney General.  Did they take any action at all?  From your post above, I would glean the answer is no.  Just wondering if there might be benefit in numbers.


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## chapjim (Nov 10, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> <snip>
> 
> Although my dear husband says I should have written down each contract # on a spreadsheet.  He is always so helpful with the obvious.



The Assessment Summary would have had it all.  That is a document that seems to have disappeared with the conversion to Paymentus.  Too bad -- it was useful.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 10, 2022)

chapjim said:


> The Assessment Summary would have had it all.  That is a document that seems to have disappeared with the conversion to Paymentus.  Too bad -- it was useful.



The assessment summaries are supposed to be introduced into the PaymentUS portal before end of year.  The historical assessment summaries that were supposed to be present on the Owner Dashboard were reported missing two months ago to Wyndham and are supposed to be returning to the Owner dashboard at some point - I'll follow up on this item to get a status update.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 10, 2022)

Snippy said:


> @rickandcindy23   I seem to remember you mentioning that you had contacted the Florida Attorney General.  Did they take any action at all?  From your post above, I would glean the answer is no.  Just wondering if there might be benefit in numbers.


Wyndham's answer to the AG after we wrote was that Wyndham is taking care of owners and stopping the rental businesses.  They are apparently the only ones who can rent prime inventory.  Owners cannot rent anything.  

I think it would be good if more people were to write such letters.  But no way would I take it further.  I am done.  Wyndham can take a high-horse position that they are the benevolent company who is helping the ordinary owner, but Wyndham is in the business of selling, renting, and now reselling contracts that they take back from owners who want out.  To me, it's sleazy, especially reselling contracts.


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## Jan M. (Nov 11, 2022)

Timeshare companies reselling contracts/deeds is how the business works. This isn't something new or different than what any other timeshare companies or even resorts that aren't affiliated with a major timeshare company do.

The only time when people buy directly from a timeshare company or resort that it isn't resale is when the resort is new and being sold for the very first time.

It's been common knowledge here on TUG that Wyndham used and maybe still sometimes uses favored resellers to acquire inventory. They even bought on eBay and likely other places like Redweek through third parties. Certified Exit, formerly Ovations, cuts out the middleman and eliminates the extra transfer work.

We all know that owners pay resellers to get rid of their timeshare for them. Some supposed resellers just take the owners money, sometimes lots of it, but other resellers actually do perform the service they're paid to do.

We also learned a few years ago that CWA contacts sold after sometime I think it was in 2016 have a right of first refusal written in them. We did hear of Wyndham exercising that rofr a few times a while back but not recently. Marriott and DVC both have rofr and they do claim it when the price is below a certain amount. I don't know if the other timeshare chains like HGVC/Hilton and HICV/Holiday Inn have rofr or buy through resellers.

Some people may not be aware that some timeshare companies, I believe HICV is one of them, smaller chains and individual resorts offer buy back programs. From what we've seen here on TUG the owner pays $1500-$3000 to give back what they own. Some even require the next year's maintenance fees be paid in addition to whatever the fee is. Of course that inventory gets resold.


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## Arimaas (Nov 11, 2022)

I have a question - my sister has traveled probably once a year on my account since I opened it with extra points. Same last name as me. Should i be worried about getting a letter? I don't really understand what is going on with this whole "commercial use" guest situation. Can someone give me the quick run down? Sorry to co-op the OP's post, but I'm just trying to understand what is really going on. I know there has been many posts here.


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## Arimaas (Nov 11, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> We also learned a few years ago that CWA contacts sold after sometime I think it was in 2016 have a right of first refusal written in them. We did hear of Wyndham exercising that rofr a few times a while back but not recently. Marriott and DVC both have rofr and they do claim it when the price is below a certain amount. I don't know if the other timeshare chains like HGVC/Hilton and HICV/Holiday Inn have rofr or buy through resellers.



HGVC does have ROFR, and also sells their own resale units for owners exiting (which count as "developer purchases for their VIP program) at their Scotland property.


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## Jan M. (Nov 11, 2022)

Arimaas said:


> I have a question - my sister has traveled probably once a year on my account since I opened it with extra points. Same last name as me. Should i be worried about getting a letter? I don't really understand what is going on with this whole "commercial use" guest situation. Can someone give me the quick run down? Sorry to co-op the OP's post, but I'm just trying to understand what is really going on. I know there has been many posts here.



Is hers the only guest confirmation you're using? Is her reservation less than say 30% of your total points? If so I don't see an issue. Also unless your last name is a very common one it should be clear to anyone looking at your usage that she's family.

You're not an owner Wyndham is concerned about. If you haven't already gotten a letter or email I doubt you will as there's no reason you should based on what I can see.

A while back Wyndham sent out a batch of emails and letters too, although I don't think they were the certified letters, about commercial renting. It seemed to be a random sweep to get owners to sign saying they wouldn't engage in commercial renting. We never heard more about that and assumed it was part of something the legal department was doing in order to build their case.


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## Arimaas (Nov 11, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> Is hers the only guest confirmation you're using? Is her reservation less than say 30% of your total points? If so I don't see an issue.



I'm not sure the ratio of her usage to my usage,  but probably closer to 75%. She had a week in Hawaii, just finished a week in Nashville and then two days (express window) in the Poconos to finish off my points. I had a glut of points this year since I moved 2020/2021 into 2022. I have a 5 day stay in Newport coming up, and used a week for Easter in Newport. She was the only guest I used this year, and even got stuck paying for a final GC for her final stay in the Poconos this year (which sucks for a 2 night stay, but whatever, she was cool with it). She has actually used the account pretty steady as a guest since I bought in to Wyndham. Again, I guess we are all grasping at straws, cause we don't know what the triggers are.


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## Jan M. (Nov 11, 2022)

Arimaas said:


> I'm not sure the ratio of her usage to my usage,  but probably closer to 75%. She had a week in Hawaii, just finished a week in Nashville and then two days (express window) in the Poconos to finish off my points. I had a glut of points this year since I moved 2020/2021 into 2022. I have a 5 day stay in Newport coming up, and used a week for Easter in Newport. She was the only guest I used this year, and even got stuck paying for a final GC for her final stay in the Poconos this year (which sucks for a 2 night stay, but whatever, she was cool with it). She has actually used the account pretty steady as a guest since I bought in to Wyndham. Again, I guess we are all grasping at straws, cause we don't know what the triggers are.



If you have a small deed or contract in your account you could add her name to it so you aren't using any guest confirmations for her. If you don't have something small you could pick something up cheap and include her name on it. Are there any other family members you would also put on?

It has the benefit of giving you another name or names on your account to hold reservations. Especially now that reservation transactions are going to be free for all owners. Also owners are given preference over guests when assigning units.


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## Arimaas (Nov 11, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> If you have a small deed or contract in your account you could add her name to it so you aren't using any guest confirmations for her. If you don't have something small you could pick something up cheap and include her name on it. Are there any other family members you would also put on?
> 
> It has the benefit of giving you another name or names on your account to hold reservations. Especially now that reservation transactions are going to be free for all owners. Also owners are given preference over guests when assigning units.



Probably a good idea to add some names to the deeds to save the GCs.  I would probably throw my mother on it as well so her and my father could travel. 

No need to add my wife. Her and I go hand in hand.


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## Jan M. (Nov 11, 2022)

Arimaas said:


> Probably a good idea to add some names to the deeds to save the GCs.  I would probably throw my mother on it as well so her and my father could travel.
> 
> No need to add my wife. Her and I go hand in hand.



If you add your wife you can have a second reservation in her name when you have a large group get together. If I remember correctly you've done some big family stays.

I was on eBay yesterday for the first time in probably close to 2 months. I saw several really good Wyndham timeshare listings.


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## noreenkate (Nov 11, 2022)

Arimaas said:


> Probably a good idea to add some names to the deeds to save the GCs.  I would probably throw my mother on it as well so her and my father could travel.



I dunno about this - honestly all of my contracts are  tiny…

but no way I am adding my adults sons from everything I have read here on TUG G-d forbid something happens they cannot be forced to inherit what they don’t want or aren’t ready to pay for…

Adding them on to even small contact removes that protection


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## chapjim (Nov 11, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> I dunno about this - honestly all of my contracts are  tiny…
> 
> but no way I am adding my adults sons from everything I have read here on TUG G-d forbid something happens they cannot be forced to inherit what they don’t want or aren’t ready to pay for…
> 
> *Adding them on to even small contact removes that protection*



But only for that one contract.  The other contracts are not affected.


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 11, 2022)

chapjim said:


> But only for that one contract.  The other contracts are not affected.


Did anyone see the post the other day -- someone wondering why anyone would pay $51 for 28K at Grand Desert? All closing costs paid by the current owner. Maintenance paid until transfer complete?   This might be why?


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## noreenkate (Nov 11, 2022)

chapjim said:


> But only for that one contract.  The other contracts are not affected.



Again- I would not do it for  even 1 contract- that’s just me though…


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 11, 2022)

Wyndham has destroyed resale value for me to sell, I didn't acquire anything I own for $0, but they can sell for full price during a lying presentation, when the salespeople are still telling owners they can rent and that resale doesn't get any benefits from Wyndham (and all of the other lies they tell).  

Wyndham will take back my contracts, which require me to wait as long as they want to transfer them out of my name, while I pay fees until the transfer occurs?  Wyndham's "out" is not free.  And they will lie to sell these contracts like they are brand new.    

Irony is that they did this after Covid, when everyone wants to travel again.  

And Wyndham hasn't helped me get logged into their system.  It's been weeks since I had a ticket started on that.  The Paymentus system is terrible and has someone else's name on our payment account.  How can they mess everything up so badly?


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 11, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> Again- I would not do it for  even 1 contract- that’s just me though…


I let my kids make the choice. Two are on a secondary contract. Number 3 (who is actually #1) said 'I want nothing to do with that stuff, I'll play the $99 for a guest certificate'. (I wish you could hear her tone, but you'll just have to imagine). 

I've never had to charge her, normally so many of us travel at one time, there are enough owners we don't need GC's. Or I've had comp ones. But I wanted her to make the choice, understanding the financial implications.


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## ausman (Nov 11, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> I dunno about this - honestly all of my contracts are  tiny…
> 
> but no way I am adding my adults sons from everything I have read here on TUG G-d forbid something happens they cannot be forced to inherit what they don’t want or aren’t ready to pay for…
> 
> Adding them on to even small contact removes that protection



I can not think of a way to diplomatically say " Is that right." but how do you know this.?

I've been around Wyndham bulletin boards, forum's, wyndham member websites, TUG  etc for 20 years plus. I also recently removed my wife from all our contracts after a serious health scare as I did not want her dealing with Wyndham after I was gone, I also have accepted that viewpoint and thought better that I do so than not.

It has been advised through all those years to get around the reservation limitations to add another name or names to a small contract since Wyndham amalgamates all deeds with a common name among them into the one account with account privilege's for all so named. Yet in all those years I do not recall any real instances of Wyndham holding all account names liable related on those sites.

Legally I can not see how they could do so. They could of course try to enforce the one contract that the additional names appear on but what about the potentially million points or so of other contracts/deeds where those additional names do not appear. How can they legally expect non named individuals to be liable for those.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 11, 2022)

I got logged in!  Our son has never had a log-in for Wyndham, but he does now.  I doubt he will use it, but I sure will.


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## chapjim (Nov 11, 2022)

ausman said:


> I can not think of a way to diplomatically say " It that right." but how do you know this.?
> 
> I've been around Wyndham bulletin boards, forum's, wyndham member websites, TUG  etc for 20 years plus. I also recently removed my wife from all our contracts after a serious health scare as I did not want her dealing with Wyndham after I was gone, I also have accepted that viewpoint and thought better that I do so than not.
> 
> ...



They can't.  When two persons are on a single deed, they are co-owners.  Upon the demise of either party, the survivor becomes the sole owner.  For a deed with a single owner, upon that person's demise, the property is disposed of according to the will.  However, the named beneficiary can refuse to accept the property in question.  It is done in writing and is not revocable.  In that case, the property passes to the next (contingent) beneficiary, if one is named.  If the owner dies without a will (intestate), the property passes according to state laws of intestacy.


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## ausman (Nov 11, 2022)

I'm being disagreeable tonight. Even my wife says I'm in a mood. I generally hate nit picking but here I go picking some nits.

" I*n Tenancy in Common, the ownership portion passes to the individual's estate at death.* *In Joint Tenancy, the title of the property passes to the surviving owner*. Some states set Joint Tenancy as the default property ownership for married couples, while others use the Tenancy in Common model.  "

I'm more familiar with the term tenancy in common with rights of survivor ship  than the term joint tenancy.


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## Eric B (Nov 11, 2022)

ausman said:


> I'm being disagreeable tonight. Even my wife says I'm in a mood. I generally hate nit picking but here I go picking some nits.
> 
> " I*n Tenancy in Common, the ownership portion passes to the individual's estate at death.* *In Joint Tenancy, the title of the property passes to the surviving owner*. Some states set Joint Tenancy as the default property ownership for married couples, while others use the Tenancy in Common model.  "
> 
> I'm more familiar with the term tenancy in common with rights of survivor ship  than the term joint tenancy.



Actually, Joint Tenancy more often has right of survivorship to pass title to the living joint tenant, though that isn't mandatory in all jurisdictions. Tenancy in common typically doesn't have right of survivorship - that's the case in all jurisdictions I know of. There are other ownership types that exist in some (e.g., community property and tenancy by the entirety). Best to consult a professional in the jurisdiction where the property is located for real details, of course, but the thumbnail sketch from @chapjim does a decent job describing how it works for the most common ownership types for timeshares, joint tenancy with right of survivorship and sole and separate property, though he doesn't name them.


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## CO skier (Nov 12, 2022)

ausman said:


> I'm being disagreeable tonight.


You are not being "disagreeable" but only posting what I was also thinking.

When two (or more) persons own a deed, their ownership is defined in the deed; i.e. tenants in common, sole and separate property (but ownership rights depend on the state) are just a couple of examples  where "Upon the demise of either party, the survivor becomes the sole owner" would not be the case.


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## CO skier (Nov 12, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Actually, Joint Tenancy more often has right of survivorship to pass title to the living joint tenant, though that isn't mandatory in all jurisdictions. .


In some jurisdictions, "Joint Tenancy with right of survivorship" is reserved for only married persons.


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## Jan M. (Nov 12, 2022)

I hope @noreenkate and others who may be reading this thread listen to our Tuggers who actually know what they're talking about. Hint, hint, we have some members who are attorneys or are employed in that field. 

Unfortunately some people are always quick to spread their uninformed opinions and influence others. Like never buy a timeshare, never put your kids names on your timeshare, your maintenance fees will go up, that resort is in a sketchy area, etc.


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## noreenkate (Nov 12, 2022)

ausman said:


> I can not think of a way to diplomatically say " Is that right." but how do you know this.?



is it right? If your question is based on the legality of it I am no expert.-

Is it right for our family? Yes- my kids are just starting out…one in his first apartment with friends, the other still lives at home and in his first year of apprenticeship. Both do not even have credit cards in thier own names yet- one just got his first cell phone plan…That said we are still “helping” them out financially when needed. I am an early retiree, I have all the time in the world to travel…my youngest doesn’t even have a weeks worth vacation time built up yet…

If something happens to me tomorrow neither is in a position yet to take on even the smallest contract maintenance fees ect…

so for now me paying a guest certificate if the should need it ( and Wyndham allows it to go through) is well the safest option for them. Adding them to a contract to save on guest certs is just to risky- Both have already taken trips Wyndham via  RCi -deposit and last calls…

For what it’s worth- I had been looking to add on w/DVC…both boys were asked if they wanted to be on the small contract - there answer was NO…so it’s not just a Wyndham thing for us…


Regardless of what Wyndham can or can’t do…Keeping them out of the mix altogether puts distance between them and maintenance fees…


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 12, 2022)

My husband just says either he better die before me or make sure he has the number for certified exit.


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 12, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> My husband just says either he better die before me or make sure he has the number for certified exit.


I will add a little more seriousness to that.  I do count on certified exit as an easy out if it comes to that, for someone. As the years have gone by, I am only more confident it will be there for them.  I checked all contracts are eligible, I rechecked recently (me, paranoid)?

Wyndham's forte is not helping with inheritance type issues. I don't want my successor trustee needing to ask Wyndham for advice. I would like to get things titled such that things land where they should, and with those who want it. Some do, some don't. My roadblock was working with certified exit / legacy (I think that is what it is called or was called). You have to cancel all reservations and basically freeze your account while the transfer is in progress. We would not be buying or selling, just transferring to qualified owners. I need to get myself in that position (no reservations), I think we'd have to miss a year of usage. Maybe we need to look for a year where we all want to do something non-Wyndham. IMHO, it should be a much simpler process (for qualified family to inherit).

Seriously, for my family, I'll try not to die the year someone has their dream trip to Hawaii planned.


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## noreenkate (Nov 12, 2022)

@Sandi Bo how did you do this?

“checked all contracts are eligible, I rechecked recently (me, paranoid)?”

 check the contracts I am really good paranoid already…


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 12, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> @Sandi Bo how did you do this?
> 
> “checked all contracts are eligible, I rechecked recently (me, paranoid)?”
> 
> check the contracts I am really good paranoid already…


You can call Certified Exit. 866-294-4194  (Mon-Fri 9am-5pm)  They were very informative and they will check all contracts to be sure they are eligible. You hear about people's not being eligible, I don't know why. All of mine are (developer and resale).  I seem to remember a waiting period for newly acquired resale - not an issue for me so I can't speak to that, but kind of remember maybe a year or two waiting period (and I could be wrong about that).  An easy phone call for some peace of mind  

I think Tribute is the name of the program now where they'll take them back and give you 2 or 3 years of usage, pretty sure those are for developer only points.  I think she was calling the program for resale Outright (so you give it back and pay maintenance until the transfer is complete (4-6 months)). Not terrible if your goal is to be sure not to burden others.


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## paxsarah (Nov 13, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> You hear about people's not being eligible, I don't know why. All of mine are (developer and resale).


The ones I’ve heard of not being accepted tend to be older legacy resorts or fixed weeks. I know when Wyndham took back my Pagosa (Teal Landing) in 2019, they had to double check because while they were accepting Teal Landing they were not accepting all of the Pagosa HOAs. With resale, it doesn’t seem that hard to choose contracts that will be acceptable either by Wyndham or desirable to another resale owner down the line.


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 13, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> The ones I’ve heard of not being accepted tend to be older legacy resorts or fixed weeks. I know when Wyndham took back my Pagosa (Teal Landing) in 2019, they had to double check because while they were accepting Teal Landing they were not accepting all of the Pagosa HOAs. With resale, it doesn’t seem that hard to choose contracts that will be acceptable either by Wyndham or desirable to another resale owner down the line.


Agree... except, I don't think there is a publicized list. You'd need to know to check somewhere (here and FB) to see if people think a contract will qualify (an informal poll). The only way I know for sure, is calling certified exit and checking, and by then it's too late.  Unless you could get the party you are purchasing from to check (no likely - and you'd need to know to ask). You can never be sure about anything (it's the Wyndham business model). And it can change tomorrow. 

Anybody remember hearing there is a waiting period of a year or two after purchasing resale.  And of course, we are talking contracts paid for in full.


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## paxsarah (Nov 13, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> Agree... except, I don't think there is a publicized list. You'd need to know to check somewhere (here and FB) to see if people think a contract will qualify (an informal poll). The only way I know for sure, is calling certified exit and checking, and by then it's too late. Unless you could get the party you are purchasing from to check (no likely - and you'd need to know to ask). You can never be sure about anything (it's the Wyndham business model). And it can change tomorrow.


I simply meant acceptable in a common-sense way, not in a "I've verified that it's currently on the list" kind of way. I own some low-MF contracts. I own some Myrtle Beach contracts which I believe have desirable ARP. I figure between CE taking the vast majority of contracts and the fact that there are other owners out there who value the same things I do (low MFs and/or appealing ARP), I'm in pretty good shape when it comes time to unload some or all of them. If the MFs start rising disproportionately on any of them, it's time for me to be proactive and unload before they become difficult to exit (basically, what I did with my Pagosa 3 years ago).


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## b2bailey (Nov 13, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Wyndham has destroyed resale value for me to sell, I didn't acquire anything I own for $0, but they can sell for full price during a lying presentation, when the salespeople are still telling owners they can rent and that resale doesn't get any benefits from Wyndham (and all of the other lies they tell).


I'm not a part of the affected group. But, while reading reading here, I couldn't help but remember that EVERY presentation I ever attended made mention of "renting out units to pay maintenance fees". If they are still selling that as a feature -- I'd have to jump up and scream " liar, liar, pants on fire"
To think that owners must now be concerned about gifting to friends and family is outrageous.


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## lotus921v (Nov 13, 2022)

b2bailey said:


> I'm not a part of the affected group. But, while reading reading here, I couldn't help but remember that EVERY presentation I ever attended made mention of "renting out units to pay maintenance fees". If they are still selling that as a feature -- I'd have to jump up and scream " liar, liar, pants on fire"
> To think that owners must now be concerned about gifting to friends and family is outrageous.



I don’t intend on renting anything out. It would purely be for family and some close friends, but I’m now paranoid


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## bnoble (Nov 13, 2022)

b2bailey said:


> If they are still selling that as a feature -- I'd have to jump up and scream " liar, liar, pants on fire"


It's not like you couldn't jump/scream that before.

And, because of Extra Holidays, it's not strictly false.


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## Jan M. (Nov 13, 2022)

bnoble said:


> It's not like you couldn't jump/scream that before.
> 
> And, because of Extra Holidays, it's not strictly false.



In 20 plus years there have been notably few times we did a presentation or update with ANY timeshare company or resort that we couldn't have "jumped up and screamed: liar, liar pants on fire!"

Or at least so close to being on fire that their pants were smoking.


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## noreenkate (Nov 13, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> I don’t intend on renting anything out. It would purely be for family and some close friends, but I’m now paranoid



yup…so we are scheduled for an upcoming trip…my son now has a few extra days off, the resort has the nights available BUT before I can get there…I would love to say - yeah go ahead meet ya there but I don’t want to risk them canceling the entire thanksgiving reservation


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## lotus921v (Nov 13, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> yup…so we are scheduled for an upcoming trip…my son now has a few extra days off, the resort has the nights available BUT before I can get there…I would love to say - yeah go ahead meet ya there but I don’t want to risk them canceling the entire thanksgiving reservation


can you put him on a tiny contract?  I just bought that 28k Canterbury off eBay to put my brother and SIL on so they could access my account.  I did the same thing with a small EOY Bali Hai for my parents.


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## noreenkate (Nov 13, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> can you put him on a tiny contract?  I just bought that 28k Canterbury off eBay to put my brother and SIL on so they could access my account.  I did the same thing with a small EOY Bali Hai for my parents.



No- I would not even on a tiny contract. While this may work for your brother and SIL my son isn’t in a position yet where this is ok - he jus finished school and is just starting out - as in 1st f/t real job this August…lol I am assuming that they are a little more established…

and even if I was ok with it no way  I can see that happening before thanksgiving trip


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## lotus921v (Nov 13, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> No- I would not even on a tiny contract. While this may work for your brother and SIL my son isn’t in a position yet where this is ok - he jus finished school and is just starting out - as in 1st f/t real job this August…lol I am assuming that they are a little more established…
> 
> and even if I was ok with it no way  I can see that happening before thanksgiving trip



It’s $8/mo in MF and the contract was $265 all in.  I covered the contract since I’ll be the one disposing of it when it is time, they are established enough to cover $8/mf, yes.

Won’t happen before tgiving though for sure


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## noreenkate (Nov 13, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> It’s $8/mo in MF and the contract was $265 all in.  I covered the contract since I’ll be the one disposing of it when it is time, they are established enough to cover $8/mf, yes.
> 
> Won’t happen before tgiving though for sure



He doesn’t even have his own credit card yet…just an authorized user. Maybe someday just not now- 

But with the flag on my resale contract i am really nervous about adding a guest certificate for our upcoming trip…


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 13, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> He doesn’t even have his own credit card yet…just an authorized user. Maybe someday just not now-
> 
> But with the flag on my resale contract i am really nervous about adding a guest certificate for our upcoming trip…


You might try calling the resort. How many days in advance would he arrive? It's been a long time since I've even asked. But they may let him check in knowing you are coming, and will stop by and show ID when you arrive. The resorts used to bend over backwards to help you out. But I think Wyndham has a pretty heavy hand and audits and such and exceptions today are few and far between. Very resort dependent, might be worth talking to a manager.


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## Roger830 (Nov 13, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> It’s $8/mo in MF and the contract was $265 all in.  I covered the contract since I’ll be the one disposing of it when it is time, *they are established enough to cover $8/mf, yes.*



It's my understanding that Wyndham considers anyone listed on one of multiple contracts in an account could be considered responsible for paying the mf for the whole account. That was discussed in the past on tug.


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 13, 2022)

Roger830 said:


> It's my understanding that Wyndham considers anyone listed on one of multiple contracts in an account could be considered responsible for paying the mf for the whole account. That was discussed in the past on tug.


I hope you are wrong.  I don't know how we would get clarification on this. I might have asked when we were setting things up and got a smushy answer from Wyndham. I thought someone could only be held responsible for the fees for the contract they are on.  Theoretically, if you had 3 contracts couldn't you ask for 3 accounts? We ask that they be combined, I've wondered if we could split them into separate accounts, if we wanted to. I've thought about doing it. If no one knows for sure, I'll follow up. When I have time, lol.


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## CO skier (Nov 14, 2022)

Roger830 said:


> It's my understanding that Wyndham considers anyone listed on one of multiple contracts in an account could be considered responsible for paying the mf for the whole account. That was discussed in the past on tug.


This would make perfect sense.  Each owner of the points membership is a co-owner, right?  Are they or are they not responsible for the whole ownership maintenance fees as co-owners?  Or are people trying to game the system, again, by adding an owner to a 1 million plus ownership with all the privileges using a 28k deed, and then thinking the 28k deeded owner(s) are only responsible for the 28K maintenance fees?


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 14, 2022)

CO skier said:


> This would make perfect sense.  Each owner of the points membership is a co-owner, right?  Are they or are they not responsible for the whole ownership maintenance fees as co-owners?  Or are people trying to game the system, again, by adding an owner to a 1 million plus ownership with all the privileges using a 28k deed, and then thinking the 28k deeded owner(s) are only responsible for the 28K maintenance fees?


Or maybe it's just good to understand in general what you are committing to. I have no intention of leaving Wyndham holding the bag. Nor do I have any intention of leaving family members holding the bag. Not gaming, just like to know risks and options. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.


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## lotus921v (Nov 14, 2022)

CO skier said:


> This would make perfect sense.  Each owner of the points membership is a co-owner, right?  Are they or are they not responsible for the whole ownership maintenance fees as co-owners?  Or are people trying to game the system, again, by adding an owner to a 1 million plus ownership with all the privileges using a 28k deed, and then thinking the 28k deeded owner(s) are only responsible for the 28K maintenance fees?






Good luck collecting on something nobody ever signed their name to lol.

There’s no way possible they can be held accountable unless they signed paperwork that made them an owner for the other deeds


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## ausman (Nov 14, 2022)

Roger830 said:


> It's my understanding that Wyndham considers anyone listed on one of multiple contracts in an account could be considered responsible for paying the mf for the whole account. That was discussed in the past on tug.


It has been discussed, but again, do you know of any instance where it has happened.


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## Roger830 (Nov 14, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> Good luck collecting on something nobody ever signed their name to lol.
> 
> There’s no way possible they can be held accountable unless they signed paperwork that made them an owner for the other deeds



I tend to agree with you, but they could create another account for the small owner where they would also have to pay the minimum program fee, about $170 per year.


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## Sandi Bo (Nov 14, 2022)

And if Wyndham really wanted everyone on all the contracts, they wouldn't charge you $300 per contract to 'make it right'.

I'm suppose to cancel all my reservations, basically freeze my account, and pay $300 per contract to add additional owners. For about 4-6 months (they aren't exactly sure for how long). No thank you.


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## noreenkate (Nov 14, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> they aren't exactly sure for how long). No thank you.



i cannot fathom unknowns like that…just me I am sure 4-6 months being the latest fine…

again NO interest in adding kids at this point but here is what I don’t understand about purchasing as suggested a small contract and adding another name to a deed-

using @lotus921v example




lotus921v said:


> can you put him on a tiny contract? I just bought that 28k Canterbury off eBay to put my brother and SIL on so they could access my account. I did the same thing with a small EOY Bali Hai for my parents.



I would think the Canterbury contract would only give brother & SIL owner status when using those points…

so if the bali hai points are to book a trip for brother and SIL at will say 4th of July at Bonnet Creek wouldnt they still need a guest certificate?

same as if I used another owners points guest Certificates & owner priority still applies


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## paxsarah (Nov 14, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> I would think the Canterbury contract would only give brother & SIL owner status when using those points…
> 
> so if the bali hai points are to book a trip for brother and SIL at will say 4th of July at Bonnet Creek wouldnt they still need a guest certificate?
> 
> same as if I used another owners points guest Certificates & owner priority still applies


Up until now* anyone who's an owner on even one contract in an account has full access to make a reservation or be listed as an owner on a any reservation without a guest certificate. They're on the dropdown and can be added to any booking.

*I can't say this won't change tomorrow, given recent changes to other "workarounds." But for the decade I've owned, multiple owners have reported this is how it works.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 14, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> Up until now* anyone who's an owner on even one contract in an account has full access to make a reservation or be listed as an owner on a any reservation without a guest certificate. They're on the dropdown and can be added to any booking.
> 
> *I can't say this won't change tomorrow, given recent changes to other "workarounds." But for the decade I've owned, multiple owners have reported this is how it works.



I suspect that this issue is more of a limitation of how the systems work as opposed to an actual policy issue.  If Wyndham could somehow limit owners added to only a single points contract within an account to only allow making reservations using that contract's specific points allotment - I suspect they would do so - but modifying both the back end and front end systems to allow for this is likely a tall order.  This is similar to how long it took Wyndham to separate out developer vs resale points buckets in the online systems that allowed for resale contracts to enjoy VIP benefits for many years.


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## noreenkate (Nov 14, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> Up until now* anyone who's an owner on even one contract in an account has full access to make a reservation or be listed as an owner on a any reservation without a guest certificate. They're on the dropdown and can be added to any booking.
> 
> *I can't say this won't change tomorrow, given recent changes to other "workarounds." But for the decade I've owned, multiple owners have reported this is how it works.


Thanks for the explanation


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## bnoble (Nov 14, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> I can't say this won't change tomorrow,


Historically, about the time that something is commonly discussed and routinely employed by TUGgers, it lasts another few years before it no longer works. We might well be at the beginning of the "another few years" window.


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## Roger830 (Nov 14, 2022)

It makes sense to give a relative full access to the account even if the relative is only listed on one of multiple contracts.

A member could remarry and give his new wife access or adult children could be added to one existing deed.

But full access must also imply full responsibility. There's no way to use and pay mf for only one contract if there are more.


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## bnoble (Nov 14, 2022)

I might also be Mean Dad, but we would be unlikely to send our kids on vacation without us. They are welcome to join us, and we will get units that are big enough for everyone, our treat. They can also vacation on their own time--and their own dime--if they like.


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## Eric B (Nov 14, 2022)

Roger830 said:


> But full access must also imply full responsibility. There's no way to use and pay mf for only one contract if there are more.



There are several entities involved in the MF payment issue for a Wyndham account. First there is Wyndham - they manage the account and collect the program fees, which are based on a multiple of the points someone owns on a contract between them and Wyndham, with a minimum annual amount that is adjusted periodically. Then there are the homeowners associations for the Club Wyndham select properties where someone owns a deed, they are owed the maintenance fees, which are a multiple of the points someone is under contract to pay the maintenance of their deeded ownership for. There are also trust associations such as Club Wyndham Access that are owed fees by those people that own a share of the trust, those fees are set as a multiple of the points that those people own. A common thread in all this is that there is a contractual basis for billing the owners of the deeds and trust points; in legalese this is thought of as privity of contract. One important aspect of the concept of privity is that I cannot obligate someone else to pay for the maintenance on my house by signing a contract with a service provider - I can only obligate myself.

The minimum program fee is the one thing that I can think of that Wyndham might be able to bill an owner of a small deed/contract for in an account that has multiple deeds - there would be privity of contract between Wyndham and each of the owners of deeds/contracts within the account and the minimum amount is not apportioned by the number of points. The various HOAs and trust associations would not have privity of contract with someone that does not own those points, so should not be able to bill for the fees. They might try to, but IMHO wouldn't have a contractual leg to stand on.

For resale contracts for maintenance of deeded resale ownerships or trust ownerships, the transfer process with Wyndham is what creates the privity between Wyndham and the new owners. They really should get a copy of the contracts, though I don't think they generally do, but their assent to taking on the obligations of those contracts is a part of the transfer process. Bottom line for me is that I don't believe that Wyndham could legally compel payment by a non-owner for deeds within an account. However, they do have the ability to freeze the account for non-payment, which would affect the ability the owner of a small deed/contract to use it. In the end, if the purpose is to allow use of the entire account without a continuing obligation for all the maintenance on the account, the current system works. When it comes down to what to do about the remaining accounts after someone passes, the owner of a small deed/contract can either sell it or ask Wyndham to remove it from the account and set up a separate one - I suspect they would accommodate that sort of request. They have a certain amount of leverage but can only do what their contracts allow them to do.

Not intended as legal advice, of course. Just my 2 cents on these things based on my understanding of property and contract law. If anyone has any real questions or concerns on this sort of thing they should consult a professional in the relevant jurisdiction.


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## CO skier (Nov 14, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> Good luck collecting on something nobody ever signed their name to lol.
> 
> There’s no way possible they can be held accountable unless they signed paperwork that made them an owner for the other deeds


Is each deed billed separately for maintenance fees or are they billed as an agreggate; i.e., one billing for all the deeds in the account?  If the latter, then what if an owner in a multi-owner/milti-deed account decides not to pay their share?  The maintenance bill cannot be "short-paid"; Wyndham would just lock the account.  "Someone" may be doing the "collecting" and it will not be Wyndham.


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## CO skier (Nov 14, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I suspect that this issue is more of a limitation of how the systems work as opposed to an actual policy issue.  If Wyndham could somehow limit owners added to only a single points contract within an account to only allow making reservations using that contract's specific points allotment - I suspect they would do so - but modifying both the back end and front end systems to allow for this is likely a tall order.  This is similar to how long it took Wyndham to separate out developer vs resale points buckets in the online systems that allowed for resale contracts to enjoy VIP benefits for many years.


The simplest solution is during the transfer process.  If the names on the deed do not exactly match the names on the whole account, a new, different account is created.  That is how it works in WorldMark.

Existing Club Wyndham accounts get grandfathered, but no more additions unless the names on the deed being transfered in exactly match the names on the account.  Simple.


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## Cyrus24 (Nov 14, 2022)

There has been some discussion in this thread on who pays the full balance on an account when only one contract is put in the name of all family members.  In our case, 2021,  myself and my wife were the Assignor's of a relatively small CWA contract with the Assignee's being myself, my wife, and our 3 adult children.  I'm not an attorney, so, interpret the words that follow, as you wish.  Until that change is made, I've interpreted the words to be that the 3 adult children are only on the hook for the 1 contract.  Our plan is to add the 3 adult children to our other contracts at some point so that they can preserve VIP benefits upon our passing (hopefully no time soon).

================================================  

A portion of the consideration of the assignment being that ASSIGNEE herein assume all the obligations and agree to pay all the payments described in said contract. 

ASSIGNOR and ASSIGNEE acknowledges that all charges and obligations currently due and payable in connection with the subject contract must be paid as a condition of the acceptance of this agreement by Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc. The charge(s) and obligation(s) currently due and payable is/are: Please contact PTVO Owners Association, Inc. for any fees that may be due, at 1-888-739-4022 or 1-800-251-8736, option 2 and 2. 

It is mutually agreed and understood that ASSIGNOR shall remain liable to Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc. under the original contract referred to above until such time as ASSIGNEE has performed all of the terms and conditions of said original contract. This agreement is not valid unless accepted in writing by Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc.


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## lotus921v (Nov 14, 2022)

noreenkate said:


> i cannot fathom unknowns like that…just me I am sure 4-6 months being the latest fine…
> 
> again NO interest in adding kids at this point but here is what I don’t understand about purchasing as suggested a small contract and adding another name to a deed-
> 
> ...





noreenkate said:


> i cannot fathom unknowns like that…just me I am sure 4-6 months being the latest fine…
> 
> again NO interest in adding kids at this point but here is what I don’t understand about purchasing as suggested a small contract and adding another name to a deed-
> 
> ...


theyre on with both my husband and I.  Four of us total.  Per my discussion with Wyndham it gives them access to use all of my points


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## noreenkate (Nov 14, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> theyre on with both my husband and I.  Four of us total.  Per my discussion with Wyndham it gives them access to use all of my points



Just trying to understand how it works- not implying it’s not allowed or not ok just the logistics of it…


Lol no one else on my contracts so I don’t see anything else in a “drop box”


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