# Problems with Worldmark election



## PA-

It appears that there is some sort of problem with the ballots cast during the Worldmark election.  Now is the time to verify your votes were counted, before the results are announced.

I have specific examples of:

1)  Voters who voted on-line with email confirmations showing they properly assigned me as their proxy agent, but they didn't show up on my Final Vote Report.

2)  Voters who gave me their 3 year proxy last year, didn't vote this year, and don't show up on this year's report.

3)  Voters who voted on one or both ballot initiatives, then assigned me their proxies for the candidate voting don't show up on my list.  The Mellon Inspector of Elections clearly stated that they would show up on the list during the annual meeting.

I suggest that you contact the inspector of elections or your friendly worldmark board of directors to verify your votes were counted as you cast them.  If you feel it inappropriate for your voting preferences to be shared with members of the Worldmark board, you may ask them to provide a way to get independent confirmation of your ballot.  Surely there must be an audit trail?


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## larry_WM

PA- said:


> I suggest that you contact the inspector of elections or your friendly worldmark board of directors to verify your votes were counted as you cast them.  If you feel it inappropriate for your voting preferences to be shared with members of the Worldmark board, you may ask them to provide a way to get independent confirmation of your ballot.  Surely there must be an audit trail?



This is the reason it will take two months or even longer


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## larry_WM

PA- said:


> I've asked for access to the ballots from 2006 and 2007. If it's not granted, I'll take my request to the Attorney General in California. That's all I can do.
> 
> ?



It looks like a handcount request for Florida. I wonder how much money I have to pay for this BS.


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## BocaBum99

PA,

The more this Larry person posts, the more I think he works for Wyndham.


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## larry_WM

BocaBum99 said:


> Probably your entire net worth
> .




And it also costs you the same too, be smart !


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## spatenfloot

BocaBum99 said:


> PA,
> 
> The more this Larry person posts, the more I think he works for Wyndham.



More likely it is a regular poster from here using a throw away new login name for trolling. It happens a lot.


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## PA-

So far, the biggest discrepancy seems to be those that assigned me their 3 year proxy last year and did nothing this year.  However, there are also several people who faxed me the proxy form on the wmowners.com website who weren't counted.  And, there's even people who voted electronically, got email confirmation that their proxy was assigned to me and that they had done everything properly (my name spelled correctly, no votes on ballot initiatives) and STILL didn't get counted for me.

Of course, the people who just cast a vote, I have no way of checking.  If you want to make sure, you'll have to ask the board for a way to check.  I only have a list of people who gave me their proxy, not those that cast a vote for me.  But I can tell from the numbers I should have had from last year and the number of proxy forms faxed to me this year, my numbers are VASTLY different from what they should be.


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## herindoors911

larry_WM said:


> And it also costs you the same too, be smart !




I don't care how much it costs.  I want an independent board member, and the current BOD/Mellon better get this election process sorted fairly.  The AG of California needs to be advised of their ineptitude thus    far.

This current BOD are already wasting $$ because they have to defend themselves in a lawsuit because of Wyndham's greed and the help they give them so willingly to find ways of skimming every possible money making dime out of Worldmark.   Get real.


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## PerryM

perl said:


> I don't care how much it costs.  I want an independent board member, and the current BOD/Mellon better get this election process sorted fairly.  The AG of California needs to be advised of their ineptitude thus    far.
> 
> This current BOD are already wasting $$ because they have to defend themselves in a lawsuit because of Wyndham's greed and the help they give them so willingly to find ways of skimming every possible money making dime out of Worldmark.   Get real.



Don't forget that the insurance that we WM owners pay to cover the WM BOD is going to cover any costs against the BOD.  Also, we will be picking up the tab for any legal fight.

Shooting ourselves in the foot might be considered "doing something" but it just is going to hurt ALL WM owners.


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## BocaBum99

PerryM said:


> Don't forget that the insurance that we WM owners pay to cover the WM BOD is going to cover any costs against the BOD.  Also, we will be picking up the tab for any legal fight.
> 
> Shooting ourselves in the foot might be considered "doing something" but it just is going to hurt ALL WM owners.



D&O insurance only covers you if you didn't do anything illegal.  If they did, they are fully liable.


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## PerryM

*For those dreaming of the "Perp Walk"...*



BocaBum99 said:


> D&O insurance only covers you if you didn't do anything illegal.  If they did, they are fully liable.



True, but Wyndham is too smart to actually do something illegal.  I doubt that there is anything anyone at Wyndham or on the WM BOD knowingly thought that their paycheck (or other compensation) was worth enough to spend years in prison.

All the other stuff they may or may have not done is going to be defended by the finest lawyers money can buy - and we WM owners will pay for all of this.  I doubt anyone at Wyndham or on the WM BOD will lose a single second of sleep.

We WM owners will pay millions so all the lawyers, on both sides, get to buy brand new BMWs or heck even Bentley's to go with the new summer homes.

Anyone thinking that we will have pictures of Wyndham employees or cronies doing the "Perp Walk" in handcuffs has been watching the Drive-By Media too much.

My guess, and that's all it is, is that not ONE charge/accusation will stick and we will be stuck with a huge legal bill.  This is just expensive entertainment that we WM owners will pay for in higher MFs that will never be reduced.

P.S.
Just as it's a fairytale that corporations pay taxes, so is it a fairytale that corporations pay for legal challenges to them.  We, their customers, pay for all of this.  On the subject of taxes, corporations don't pay "Death taxes", why do we?


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## PA-

PerryM said:


> True, but Wyndham is too smart to actually do something illegal.  I doubt that there is anything anyone at Wyndham or on the WM BOD knowingly thought that their paycheck (or other compensation) was worth enough to spend years in prison.
> 
> *WRONG!  They have done something illegal, and they have done so knowingly.  The violations of the laws and the governing docs have been pointed out multiple times to them.*
> 
> All the other stuff they may or may have not done is going to be defended by the finest lawyers money can buy - and we WM owners will pay for all of this.  I doubt anyone at Wyndham or on the WM BOD will lose a single second of sleep.
> 
> We WM owners will pay millions so all the lawyers, on both sides, get to buy brand new BMWs or heck even Bentley's to go with the new summer homes.
> 
> *you keep repeating this, but it isn't true.  Do you honestly think the board will get to defend itself from Worldmark owner's accusations using Worldmark funds?  You think that isn't going to be looked into at the end of all this?  The BOD's actions are being watched extremely closely.*
> 
> Anyone thinking that we will have pictures of Wyndham employees or cronies doing the "Perp Walk" in handcuffs has been watching the Drive-By Media too much.
> 
> *To this point, the proceedings are civil, not criminal cases.  I'm almost certain that criminal charges WILL be filed against both Wyndham and the Worldmark Board within the next few months.  I doubt that jail time will result, but it could.  One thing is for sure; Worldmark funds will not be used to defend the board.  You can say it as much as you want, but it won't be.  That would be illegal.*
> 
> My guess, and that's all it is, is that not ONE charge/accusation will stick and we will be stuck with a huge legal bill.  This is just expensive entertainment that we WM owners will pay for in higher MFs that will never be reduced.
> 
> P.S.
> Just as it's a fairytale that corporations pay taxes, so is it a fairytale that corporations pay for legal challenges to them.  We, their customers, pay for all of this.  On the subject of taxes, corporations don't pay "Death taxes", why do we?



Don't know about you, but I'm not a "customer" of Wyndham.  I'm an owner of Worldmark.  Owners will not be paying Wyndham's legal fees.  Those people who may purchase from Wyndham may have to pay a higher fee for credits, but I doubt it.  Wyndham is a multi-billion$ corp, these legal fees are chump change.  A settlement in the hundreds of millions will hurt Wydnham, but over the long run, they'll consider it the cost of doing business, just like Exxon with the Valdez judgement (currently $2.5 Billion, but under review).


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## PerryM

*Guessing our way to vacations*

Sounds like all of us are just guessing what will and won't happen.  Unless documents can be displayed showing who is paying what.

I'll bet with the Billion dollar company and against the unorganized WM owners.  (By that I mean the WM owner will be trumped by the Billion dollar company in one way or the other)

I think there are plenty of "work arounds" to allow the WM owners to use their club just fine.  Waiting for election results and legal outcomes is just an exercise in raising one's blood pressure.

I guess we will see the outcome of the WM BOD election and then wait a year to see what, if anything, happens.  My guess is that nothing will come from all this posturing.  Same with the lawsuits and threats of criminal action.

Well, ok, we will pay for this in one way other the other.  I doubt that the Wyndham stock holder is going to pay for this.

But, I'm just guessing....

To all those who want to get caught up in this battle - good luck to you; you will need it.  Just why did you buy those WM credits in the first place - vacation or corporate battles?


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## PA-

PerryM said:


> Sounds like all of us are just guessing what will and won't happen.  Unless documents can be displayed showing who is paying what.
> 
> I'll bet with the Billion dollar company and against the unorganized WM owners.  (By that I mean the WM owner will be trumped by the Billion dollar company in one way or the other)
> 
> *Fine, let me know how much you'd like to bet me that the "unorganized owners" won't pay the legal fee.*
> 
> I think there are plenty of "work arounds" to allow the WM owners to use their club just fine.  Waiting for election results and legal outcomes is just an exercise in raising one's blood pressure.
> 
> *My blood pressure is 130 over 80.  Nothing Wyndham does will affect it.*
> 
> I guess we will see the outcome of the WM BOD election and then wait a year to see what, if anything, happens.  My guess is that nothing will come from all this posturing.  Same with the lawsuits and threats of criminal action.
> 
> Well, ok, we will pay for this in one way other the other.  I doubt that the Wyndham stock holder is going to pay for this.
> 
> But, I'm just guessing....
> 
> To all those who want to get caught up in this battle - good luck to you; you will need it.  Just why did you buy those WM credits in the first place - vacation or corporate battles?
> 
> *I've got 2 Worldmark vacations planned for the next 2 months, another in March, and will book something on the west coast for next summer.  I plan to enjoy using my ownership, AND at the same time hold our management company and board accountable to the owners.  I've gotten a lot of support from other owners, and there are always a few nay-sayers who either say it's not worth the effort, or they are more content with the devil they know than the unknown.  I don't begrudge anybody their views, everyone must do as they feel best.  *




I'm sure there would be some owners that would wonder why, if you feel as you say, you'd bother even reading these posts or getting your blood pressure up by engaging in the arguements.


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## PerryM

*Great question...*



PA- said:


> I'm sure there would be some owners that would wonder why, if you feel as you say, you'd bother even reading these posts or getting your blood pressure up by engaging in the arguements.



This is a great question - my response:

I got sucked into hating Wyndham about a year ago and then it struck me one day that I hardly use WM like most WM owners do - I exchange into much better timeshares with the arrangement WM and II have set up.

I also think that all of you wanting to overthrow Wyndham are all wrong - you should be campaigning and focusing on hiring WM employees.  Right this second not ONE WM employee exists.  WM is being run like a dinky little single timeshare resort.

WM is a Billion dollar organization that needs a CEO and a management team and a hundred or so employees to make it work for the WM owners.  Basically in a global timeshare organization of 60+ resorts and $180 M annual operating budget WM is run like a mom and pop timeshare.  Right now we give EVERY PENNY to Wyndham - this is just wrong.

Since no one seems to be focused on the correct solution to this I see no reason to favor WM owners over the Wyndham cronies that now inhabit the WM BOD.

Basically I see you and the other candidates fighting the wrong battle and I don't want to get involved.  You guys are playing Wyndham's game and they will win in the long run.  Fight the right battle and we can make WM into an organization that will result in much higher resale values for WM credits.  This, to me is the barometer of how WM is doing.  Right now that barometer is forecasting stormy times ahead.

So to conclude my answer - you guys are wasting your time and the results will differ little from what we currently have.  Sadly the WM owners will be devastated when, a year or so from now, the status quo is still there - look for even faster falling resale WM credit prices.  This is just the opinion of one WM owner - I don't pretend to speak for anyone but myself.


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## PA-

PerryM said:


> This is a great question - my response:
> 
> ...So to conclude my answer - you guys are wasting your time and the results will differ little from what we currently have.  ...




So the reason you're spending time on this issue, when you clearly feel it's a waste of time is because....you feel it's a waste of time?  Then I repeat the original question:

I'm sure there would be some owners that would wonder why, if you feel as you say, you'd bother even reading these posts or getting your blood pressure up by engaging in the arguements


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## PA-

PerryM said:


> ...
> I also think that all of you wanting to overthrow Wyndham are all wrong - you should be campaigning and focusing on hiring WM employees.  Right this second not ONE WM employee exists.  WM is being run like a dinky little single timeshare resort.
> 
> WM is a Billion dollar organization that needs a CEO and a management team and a hundred or so employees to make it work for the WM owners.  Basically in a global timeshare organization of 60+ resorts and $180 M annual operating budget WM is run like a mom and pop timeshare.  Right now we give EVERY PENNY to Wyndham - this is just wrong.
> ....



Since thousands of owners are wrong, and only you have pin-pointed the correct issue, let me ask you this.  What percentage of HOAs do you think are self managed with their own employees?  I aware of only one ANYWHERE in the world, though I'm fairly sure there must be a handful.  The HOA in the master planned community where I lived the last 13 year has thousands of homes and a huge budget.  They hire an INDEPENDENT management company to manage their affairs, and don't have a single employee.  That is also true of ALL timeshare resorts and chains that I am familiar with; they all hire professional management companies to operate the resorts, with only one exception I'm aware of, Val Chattelle in Breck (which only has 6 timeshare units).

Whether the board hires Worldmark employees to manage the resorts and oversees them, or whether they hire an INDEPENDENT management company to do so is irrelevent.  I could make a compelling arguement for keeping the volunteer Board of Directors out of the HR business.  Do you want John Walker in charge of hiring resort managers?  You want Gene Hensley interviewing for maintenance men?  Why should they try to create a management company when there are thousands of companies that specialize in resort management?  What's wrong with hiring Marriott or VRI or Starwood, or any of a dozen other large management companies to handle management of our resorts?  Of course, they would almost certainly just hire most of the existing employees, certainly at the lower levels.  But the point is, they would report to the board and would be independent of the developer.  If Wyndham tried to remove units from inventory for their sales efforts, the management company would have no reason to hide it from the board.  If the developer built sub-standard condos, the management company would be obliged to reveal that fact to the board.  

No, the issue isn't whether the resort managers report directly to the Board, or whether they report to a management company that then reports to the Board.  The criticial issue is that the relationship between our board and the management company is not an independent, arm's length relationship.  That's what has to be fixed.  

JMO


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## BocaBum99

Perry,

In general, I see things more like you do than not.  I am a free market type of person and I believe that consumers are accountable for their own actions.

So, I take a look at what happens in the timesharing market, I see that resort developers suck out the value from timeshares over time and I simply plan accordingly.  I don't like attorneys getting involved either.

However, there are some cases where the legal system is required.  Given the allegations I've seen and the events that I have personally experienced, I think there is some merit to the claims.  More so than most other cases I can imagine.  The RCI class action cases come to mind.

So, I think your gross generalization of this issue is a bit off base.  I think you should look at the facts more closely rather than just stating bold assertions that facts don't exist implying that it's not possible for a fact base to ever exist.


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## PerryM

PA- said:


> Since thousands of owners are wrong, and only you have pin-pointed the correct issue, let me ask you this.  What percentage of HOAs do you think are self managed with their own employees?  I aware of only one ANYWHERE in the world, though I'm fairly sure there must be a handful.  The HOA in the master planned community where I lived the last 13 year has thousands of homes and a huge budget.  They hire an INDEPENDENT management company to manage their affairs, and don't have a single employee.  That is also true of ALL timeshare resorts and chains that I am familiar with; they all hire professional management companies to operate the resorts, with only one exception I'm aware of, Val Chattelle in Breck (which only has 6 timeshare units).
> 
> Whether the board hires Worldmark employees to manage the resorts and oversees them, or whether they hire an INDEPENDENT management company to do so is irrelevent.  I could make a compelling arguement for keeping the volunteer Board of Directors out of the HR business.  Do you want John Walker in charge of hiring resort managers?  You want Gene Hensley interviewing for maintenance men?  Why should they try to create a management company when there are thousands of companies that specialize in resort management?  What's wrong with hiring Marriott or VRI or Starwood, or any of a dozen other large management companies to handle management of our resorts?  Of course, they would almost certainly just hire most of the existing employees, certainly at the lower levels.  But the point is, they would report to the board and would be independent of the developer.  If Wyndham tried to remove units from inventory for their sales efforts, the management company would have no reason to hide it from the board.  If the developer built sub-standard condos, the management company would be obliged to reveal that fact to the board.
> 
> No, the issue isn't whether the resort managers report directly to the Board, or whether they report to a management company that then reports to the Board.  The criticial issue is that the relationship between our board and the management company is not an independent, arm's length relationship.  That's what has to be fixed.
> 
> JMO




WM owns 5,000 condos - what are they worth?  We don't have the slightest idea.  My guess is $1+ B.

Since we have NO idea what they are appraised at we can't force Wyndham to add comparable units.

We have an annual operating budget of $180+ M and we don't use a penny of it ourselves - we just hand it all over to Wyndham.

As long as folks want to be one of the 5 folks on the WM BOD we will get nowhere.  We need to grow up and hire a CEO and 100+ employees and run our own club.

Again, I have no reason to believe that WM owners have any better solutions than the 5 folks who are now on the BOD.

Time will tell; I'm betting a Krispy Kreme that there will be little difference if some new folks inhabit the WM BOD.  Lets see what happens 1 year from now.

I do want to alert folks that just as my prediction of falling WM resale prices was correct, so will this prediction be correct.


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## jbcoug

As long as folks want to be one of the 5 folks on the WM BOD we will get nowhere.  We need to grow up and hire a CEO and 100+ employees and run our own club.


Perry,

If we can't get the the BOD to take the most minimal of actions for the clubs good, how do you propose we get them to hire a CEO and 100 employees for WM which would be counter to their interests?

At this time, every decision runs through the BOD. Without influence on the BOD by independent members, your idea will remain nothing but a great idea. It would never become a reality.

John


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## PerryM

jbcoug said:


> As long as folks want to be one of the 5 folks on the WM BOD we will get nowhere.  We need to grow up and hire a CEO and 100+ employees and run our own club.
> 
> 
> Perry,
> 
> If we can't get the the BOD to take the most minimal of actions for the clubs good, how do you propose we get them to hire a CEO and 100 employees for WM which would be counter to their interests?
> 
> At this time, every decision runs through the BOD. Without influence on the BOD by independent members, your idea will remain nothing but a great idea. It would never become a reality.
> 
> John



What is happening now is folks just rearranging the deck furniture on the Titanic.  Nothing major is going to happen for a long long time.

That's why I have little interest in the candidates running - they just don't see but a mom and pop resort in WM.

In the mean time folks can get ulcers or just enjoy what we have; I am.


But, I've been known to be wrong on other things - maybe I'll be wrong on this - I guess you guys can hope.


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## ladycody

I had a long post that I wrote and re-wrote...and then deleted...and it had virtually nothing to do with WM.....but everything to do with personal values. 

What my thoughts boil down to is this:  

Those who teach children should teach them how to _care_ about the world they live in and how to _contribute_ to society through positive actions and _how to effect change _by refusing to tolerate bad behavior simply because it's often easier than taking action....

Many will have no idea what I'm referring to....and that's just about perfect for my purposes....but it's something I've needed to get off my chest.


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## PerryM

*Metamorphosis - it's a beautiful thing....*

Let me describe how I use timeshares for just one of our 5 vacations we take in a year.  Here is but one example:

We will be vacationing for 2 weeks in Maui starting President’s week 2008 (Week 7).  We will be staying at the Marriott Maui Ocean Club (2BR) which sells that week for about $50,000 and has a MF of $1,400.

How did I get us there?  Did I buy one from Marriott?  Did I pay 40% less and buy it resale for $30,000?  Hell no I didn’t.  Here’s how I did it:

Exchanged in II a Gold Marriott Summit Watch studio 4th of July week to get the Studio part of our 2BR in Maui for week 7.  (A Platinum week by the way)

I turned in a Week 51 (Christmas week) in a 1BR in Whistler at the WorldMark Cascade Lodge and a Mini-suite at the Park Plaza for week 50 and got enough RedWeek Points and exchanged into the 1BR side of the 2BR at the Marriott Maui Ocean Club for week 7.  Marriott will combine the two when we call in 2 weeks before check-in.

The second week has just as many abstract usages of timeshares too.

WM is a tiny pawn in a chessboard of strategy moves.  Now; do I give a rat’s ass who gets on the WM BOD?  I sure don’t since no matter who gets on that board it isn’t going to impact our vacations in the least.

Folks need to stop getting so emotional over these investments and just use them for vacations.  I just want steadfast rules that I can master and exploit to my benefit….you should too.

WM is not ready to make the next move in its evolution from Club Esprit to a real timeshare club – it’s only half way there and the current crop of folks running it don’t have either the foresight or intelligence to move on to the next phase of our metamorphosis.  I don't see any candidates that have my vision of WM either out there...

P.S.
The WM credits I used to get the Cascade Lodge Christmas Week came from TrendWest fractionals we own in South Lake Tahoe and borrowed from next year's WM usage....

I also had 2 backup plans if the above did not work out.


P.P.S.
There are many Maui Ocean Club owners who did not get week 7 - a very popular week.  Many of these folks tried and failed to spend President's Week in Maui.  Some bought 2 or more Marriott weeks just to get the 13 month availability and still did not get in.

Should the Maui Ocean Club HOA board be keelhauled too?  A lot of the problems timeshare owners bitch about are easily cured with hard work in understanding the unbelievable tools available to smart owners.  I'd put most of the WM owners who cry and moan into this category - they need to work a little harder and stop crying in their beer.

P.P.P.S.
Almost forgot the best part - we own 4 South African weeks (2 now) that were converted to RCI Points that were exchanged into 2 round trip airline tickets which cost RCI $1,006.52 each.  This represents about a 10% savings over the MFs we paid for the SA units.  RCI Points will rent those weeks, or their equivalent, to the general public to enjoy timeshares on their vacation.


Conclusion: 
I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing - learning how to use all the wonderful tools available to timeshare owners and exploiting them for my family's benefit.  *Those of you in mortal combat with Wyndham are on the wrong path.....*  Don't get sucked into this obsession.  I repeat - I am one happy WM owner who knows how to work the system to my advantage and the folks currently on the WM BOD have little impact on our vacations.  I am doing what a capitalist is supposed to do - are you?  If not, I will gladly take a better vacation while you are being distracted.

I used my knowledge of:
1) WorldMark/Wyndham 
2) TrendWest fractional units
3) II
4) RCI Weeks/RCI Points
5) Redweek Exchanges
6) South African timeshares
7) Marriott

for just this ONE vacation - what's in your bag of timeshare tricks?  And how come you're wasting time fighting a Billion dollar company and not improving your timeshare skills?

Give me a break.....I do know where WorldMark should be headed and it's not the course the current crop of folks want to take us.


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## PA-

There are a couple of major issues with worldmark, and you seem to be completely missing them, Perry.  Since Cendant took over, they have drained at least 20% of the club's equity out of the club and into their pockets.  They have drastically altered the rules in a fundamental and harmful direction, and will continue down that path if not stopped.  And their end game is to eliminate your ability to use worldmark if you don't regularly give them large sums of money.

And you're thinking that the major issue is whether we're self managed, or use a professional management company????  You think that unless we're self managed we are a mom and pop timeshare???  I would think ONLY a mom and pop outfit would be self managed.  The issue is not whether we're self managed or not.  If you disagree, discuss the pros/cons of the issue, rather than just throwing out trite sayings that don't even make sense in this context (rearranging the deck chairs) or changing the subject.  I asked you if you're aware of any HOAs that are self managed, you haven't answered.  What over-riding problems are solved by being self managed, rather than hiring an INDEPENDENT professional management company?   NONE.  Whether we hire a CEO to manage the employees, or whether we pay a management company to manage the employees is irrelevent.  Whether we hire an accounting manager, or pay an accounting firm to audit the performance of the management company is not the question.   Theoritically an accounting firm can bring greater expertise than an individual.  

As for maximizing usage of Worldmark; it's possible to discuss the issues AND maximize usage.  You don't own the market on creative ways to use worldmark.  Many of the ignorant yokels (as you've called them) that are "crying in their beer" know much more than you do about Worldmark and how to maximize usage.  Many of their tips/tricks they share with the public at large on wmowners.com, some they don't.  

Perry, you'd be embarrassed if you knew just how little some people spend to get the same quality vacations as you've gotten with your enormous expenditures, so stop lecturing us on your brilliance, please.  Let's just stick to the topic.  Your christmas plans have nothing to do with the subject at hand.  If you want to compare the expenditure on our portfolios vs. the quality of vacations, start a new thread.  I'm not convinced your vacations vs. expenditure would be in the top 50% of TUGgers, let alone people on wmowners.com.


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## PerryM

*Is that a windmill I see?*



PA- said:


> There are a couple of major issues with worldmark, and you seem to be completely missing them, Perry.  Since Cendant took over, they have drained at least 20% of the club's equity out of the club and into their pockets.  They have drastically altered the rules in a fundamental and harmful direction, and will continue down that path if not stopped.  And their end game is to eliminate your ability to use worldmark if you don't regularly give them large sums of money.
> 
> And you're thinking that the major issue is whether we're self managed, or use a professional management company????  You think that unless we're self managed we are a mom and pop timeshare???  I would think ONLY a mom and pop outfit would be self managed.  The issue is not whether we're self managed or not.  If you disagree, discuss the pros/cons of the issue, rather than just throwing out trite sayings that don't even make sense in this context (rearranging the deck chairs) or changing the subject.  I asked you if you're aware of any HOAs that are self managed, you haven't answered.  What over-riding problems are solved by being self managed, rather than hiring an INDEPENDENT professional management company?   NONE.  Whether we hire a CEO to manage the employees, or whether we pay a management company to manage the employees is irrelevent.  Whether we hire an accounting manager, or pay an accounting firm to audit the performance of the management company is not the question.   Theoritically an accounting firm can bring greater expertise than an individual.
> 
> As for maximizing usage of Worldmark; it's possible to discuss the issues AND maximize usage.  You don't own the market on creative ways to use worldmark.  Many of the ignorant yokels (as you've called them) that are "crying in their beer" know much more than you do about Worldmark and how to maximize usage.  Many of their tips/tricks they share with the public at large on wmowners.com, some they don't.
> 
> Perry, you'd be embarrassed if you knew just how little some people spend to get the same quality vacations as you've gotten with your enormous expenditures, so stop lecturing us on your brilliance, please.  Let's just stick to the topic.  Your christmas plans have nothing to do with the subject at hand.  If you want to compare the expenditure on our portfolios vs. the quality of vacations, start a new thread.  I'm not convinced your vacations vs. expenditure would be in the top 50% of TUGgers, let alone people on wmowners.com.



My whole point, even my sample vacation, is that WM is a great timeshare as it stands now.  The 20% of the club you sight is a WAG at best and is just like some RCI "crimes" are just bogyman issues.  My usage of WM is not affected by any of this and a crop of WM owners, hell bent on toppling Wyndham, will just stir up Wyndham even further.  Expect just more retaliation the more folks attack them.

That $180 M annual operating budget should go NOT to a management company but to hire a CEO, management team, and employees that have a sworn allegiance to WorldMark the Club.  We already pay for a complete set of employees now PLUS a fat profit – they wear the Wyndham logo and their pay checks say Wyndham.  Guess who they are loyal to.

If you don’t grasp that concept you seem to be in great company.

Me, I’ll continue to build my timeshare skills and take advantage of some WM owners attention which seems to be focused on windmills right now.

Let's see 1 year from now just how things have changed - my guess is that they will just deteriorate even further and WM resale credits will fall even faster.  I guess we will then hear how we need to fight even harder.  Just wait until those lawsuits make headlines....

P.S.
There could be a golden lining to all of this - MBA' students might be studying a great case of customers shooting themselves in the foot.  I wonder if we can get some royalty income from this?


----------



## PA-

PerryM said:


> My whole point, even my sample vacation, is that WM is a great timeshare as it stands now.  The 20% of the club you sight is a WAG at best and is just like some RCI "crimes" are just bogyman issues.
> 
> *  No, Perry, it's not a wag.  It's based on the amount of credit dilution that has occured since Cendant took over, and it's a VERY conservative estimate that doesn't take into account the size of the units or locations of the resorts.  It only takes into account what percentage ownership you have with your existing credits.*
> 
> That $180 M annual operating budget should go NOT to a management company but to hire a CEO, management team, and employees that have a sworn allegiance to WorldMark the Club.  We already pay for a complete set of employees now PLUS a fat profit – they wear the Wyndham logo and their pay checks say Wyndham.  Guess who they are loyal to.
> 
> If you don’t grasp that concept you seem to be in great company.
> 
> *Once again, repeat it enough and you'll fool yourself into thinking you're a genious.  But if someone questions you on your logic....?  Change the subject, repeat it again, call them a bully and storm off to another thread, anything except address the questions.  Even though you've taken this thread so far afield few are still going to read this far, I've asked you to explain why you feel that's such an important issue, and whether you're aware of other timeshares that are self-managed, among other questions.  Don't bother anwering them, why let facts get in the way of a good bluster?  *
> Me, I’ll continue to build my timeshare skills and take advantage of some WM owners attention which seems to be focused on windmills right now.
> 
> Let's see 1 year from now just how things have changed - my guess is that they will just deteriorate even further and WM resale credits will fall even faster.  I guess we will then hear how we need to fight even harder.  Just wait until those lawsuits make headlines....



You're entitled to your opinion.  Mine is that Wyndham is going to continue merging Worldmark into Fairfield until eventually we have the same problems; high fees, poor customer service and extremely low resale value.  

I'll make out better than ok either way, just like you.  I'll enjoy it until I don't, then I'll sell.  If I'm able to extend that period of time by my actions, and my family supports me doing so, so be it.


----------



## PerryM

*Deja Vu is happening agin...*



PA- said:


> You're entitled to your opinion.  *Mine is that Wyndham is going to continue merging Worldmark into Fairfield until eventually we have the same problems; high fees, poor customer service and extremely low resale value.*
> 
> I'll make out better than ok either way, just like you.  I'll enjoy it until I don't, then I'll sell.  If I'm able to extend that period of time by my actions, and my family supports me doing so, so be it.




Well yea - the ONLY thing that will stop this deja vu is WM employees.  No WM employees and we will head down the same exact path as old Fairfield; I can guarantee it.

This is my point and has been for about 1 year now.  I don't want to fight Wyndham I want a CEO who makes millions in bonus and a SOB legal team to take on Wyndham.  I want to hire the nastiest set of lawyers and sick them on Wyndham - I want the amount of progress we get to becoming a full fledged timeshare club to be shown in year end bonuses.  Heck I'd like to see the CEO driving a Bentley as a company car.

But, I realize that I am the sole person that seems to think this way - you guys can relive deja vu over and over again - maybe someday folks will listen to me.  Who knows....by then my words will seem Deja Vu.  "Didn't old Perry say this years ago?"

P.S.
Since no one seems to agree with me at this point I'm for the status quo since ANY change will be worse that what we have now - that's my opinion.


----------



## PA-

Repetition, not answers nor logic.  Om.  Om.  Om....


----------



## PA-

Back to the original topic.

Of the people who have emailed me their owner numbers to check my list, at least 1/3 had their votes counted incorrectly.  Here's the latest from the official inspector of elections:
_
We are investigating this matter and performing root cause analysis to determine if there is indeed a discrepancy as stated below and why it may have occured.  In addition, we are looking across the electronic voting base to determine that all assignments were captured correctly.  We will not report final numbers until we are confident that all votes and assignments were properly captured._

Now before you blame me for increased costs, Mellon isn't going to be paid more by WOrldmark because of their errors.  

The point is, there are a large percentage of flawed votes, I urge you to verify with the Worldmark board that your votes were correctly counted.  And if not, contact me.


----------



## larry_WM

PA- said:


> Back to the original topic.
> 
> Of the people who have emailed me their owner numbers to check my list, at least 1/3 had their votes counted incorrectly.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt about it. Someone shouldn't know how to count !
Click to expand...


----------



## Tia

larry_WM said:


> I doubt about it. Someone shouldn't know how to count !




What did you just say Larry? Not sure I understand it .


----------



## BocaBum99

PA- said:


> As for maximizing usage of Worldmark; it's possible to discuss the issues AND maximize usage.  You don't own the market on creative ways to use worldmark.  Many of the ignorant yokels (as you've called them) that are "crying in their beer" know much more than you do about Worldmark and how to maximize usage.  Many of their tips/tricks they share with the public at large on wmowners.com, some they don't.
> 
> Perry, you'd be embarrassed if you knew just how little some people spend to get the same quality vacations as you've gotten with your enormous expenditures, so stop lecturing us on your brilliance, please.  Let's just stick to the topic.  Your christmas plans have nothing to do with the subject at hand.  If you want to compare the expenditure on our portfolios vs. the quality of vacations, start a new thread.  *I'm not convinced your vacations vs. expenditure would be in the top 50% of TUGgers*, let alone people on wmowners.com.



PA,

This is a very interesting side point that I believe others should know that isn't very often posted.  Perry talks a big game.  But, anyone who seriously drills down on much of what he recommends will find a lot of hot air.  There is some good advice there for newbies which is probably why he keeps pointing out how many hundreds of people he has helped (and probably at least partially misled).  But, most true timesharing experts find his strategies to be rather meek and underwhelming.

Perry just spent a long message bragging about getting into a 2br unit at the Maui Marriott for week 7 of next year.  That actually may be an exageration.  I believe he said in another post that he got a studio and a 1br on different check in days.  It would be a waste of good negotiation skills to have to pull off a combine of that deal.  He had to buy a fractional in order to get trade credits to book a unit and then deposit it for exchange.  It would have been cheaper to simply rent credits.  But, he had to justify the fractional he bought, didn't he?  Why's that?  To justify some brilliant move?  He had to risk getting nothing on a brand new exchange company and lucked into a trade that required him to bash Redweek until they finally bribed him to shut up.  What a waste of energy to get a week in a studio and 1 bedroom unit at the Maui Marriott.

All he had to do is buy one of those Marriott Summit watch bronze week, split and deposit it into II and then check for availability during Flexchange.  Here is the view unit from the REAL 2 bedroom unit I got using that strategy for week 6 of this year.  I highly doubt that Perry will get a unit with this quality view. 






My cost for that week was about $475 for the maintenance fee of the studio half of my lock off unit.  Half a split fee of $75.  And, an II exchange fee of $135.  Total cost: about $650.  The capital was $1500 and I didn't have to go through all the trouble he did.  So, please forgive us if we find his approaches to timesharing rather uninspiring.


----------



## PA-

Wow, Boca, Game ON, Dude!  What got you going.  You know you can't throw down the glove on Perry, he won't quit til he gets the last word.  I only hope that a new thread is started to hold this "debate".  Otherwise, this thread just got off on a new track.




BocaBum99 said:


> PA,
> 
> This is a very interesting side point that I believe others should know that isn't very often posted.  Perry talks a big game.  But, anyone who seriously drills down on much of what he recommends will find a lot of hot air.  There is some good advice there for newbies which is probably why he keeps pointing out how many hundreds of people he has helped (and probably at least partially misled).  But, most true timesharing experts find his strategies to be rather meek and underwhelming.
> 
> Perry just spent a long message bragging about getting into a 2br unit at the Maui Marriott for week 7 of next year.  That actually may be an exageration.  I believe he said in another post that he got a studio and a 1br on different check in days.  It would be a waste of good negotiation skills to have to pull off a combine of that deal.  He had to buy a fractional in order to get trade credits to book a unit and then deposit it for exchange.  It would have been cheaper to simply rent credits.  But, he had to justify the fractional he bought, didn't he?  Why's that?  To justify some brilliant move?  He had to risk getting nothing on a brand new exchange company and lucked into a trade that required him to bash Redweek until they finally bribed him to shut up.  What a waste of energy to get a week in a studio and 1 bedroom unit at the Maui Marriott.
> 
> All he had to do is buy one of those Marriott Summit watch bronze week, split and deposit it into II and then check for availability during Flexchange.  Here is the view unit from the REAL 2 bedroom unit I got using that strategy for week 6 of this year.  I highly doubt that Perry will get a unit with this quality view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My cost for that week was about $475 for the maintenance fee of the studio half of my lock off unit.  Half a split fee of $75.  And, an II exchange fee of $135.  Total cost: about $650.  The capital was $1500 and I didn't have to go through all the trouble he did.  So, please forgive us if we find his approaches to timesharing rather uninspiring.


----------



## PerryM

*Simon says...*

Hey, listen if it feels good to besmirch fellow Tuggers then go right ahead.  Feel better?

BB is correct that you can get 59-day II exchanges with 4,000 WM credits that cost 6¢ to rent and you can get a 2BR Marriott Maui Ocean Club for $240 + $135 or $375.  I believe BB paid $275 too much and NO upfront cash of $1,500 is needed – way too much money BB.

PA, you use your people skills with the WM BOD – I will chart your progress and measure your accomplishments if you should get on the BOD.

I don’t know about you but I feel better…  Who should be belittle next…

See how silly this is guys.


----------



## LLW

PerryM said:


> BB is correct that you can get 59-day II exchanges with 4,000 WM credits that cost 6¢ to rent and you can get a 2BR Marriott Maui Ocean Club for $240 + $135 or $375.  I believe BB paid $275 too much and NO upfront cash of $1,500 is needed – way too much money BB.




....but with the Summit Watch bronze week he gets the 3-day Marriott preference during Flex. It's actually something that I have been taught and keeping in mind.


----------



## larry_WM

PerryM said:


> Hey, listen if it feels good to besmirch fellow Tuggers then go right ahead.  Feel better?
> 
> BB is correct that you can get 59-day II exchanges with 4,000 WM credits that cost 6¢ to rent and you can get a 2BR Marriott Maui Ocean Club for $240 + $135 or $375.  I believe BB paid $275 too much and NO upfront cash of $1,500 is needed – way too much money BB.
> 
> PA, you use your people skills with the WM BOD – I will chart your progress and measure your accomplishments if you should get on the BOD.
> 
> I don’t know about you but I feel better…  Who should be belittle next…
> 
> See how silly this is guys.



Perry, please tell me what kind of people skills the candidate have so next time I would vote for him.


----------



## PerryM

LLW said:


> ....but with the Summit Watch bronze week he gets the 3-day Marriott preference during Flex. It's actually something that I have been taught and keeping in mind.



I have a Gold Summit Watch to snatch up Marriott exchanges within the 3 - 24 day Marriott only window in II.

You can get to Marriott's Maui Ocean Club and Marriott's Summit Watch during Christmas week without a Marriott unit - I've done it with WM credits.  There are many tricks one can use within the II system to improve your chances of getting a holiday exchange.


The one thing to remember is that the WM BOD has given WM owners a great gift - to put unlimited II exchanges in the II system, up to 3 years in advance, and NOT put up ONE WM credit until an exchange happens and then you can simply rent the WM credits for 6 cents each and never have to actually own them.


----------



## PerryM

larry_WM said:


> Perry, please tell me what kind of people skills the candidate have so next time I would vote for him.



Larry, I gave examples of poor debating skills - name calling and insulting a fellow Tugger is the lowest form of debating - in fact I think it shows a character flaw.

There is NO reason to insult fellow timeshare owners by anyone.  We need to improve our debating skills by lifting the conversations above street level.  I will admit that I sometimes go astray my self...Iim human too.


----------



## larry_WM

PerryM said:


> Larry, I gave examples of poor debating skills - name calling and insulting a fellow Tugger is the lowest form of debating - in fact I think it shows a character flaw.
> 
> There is NO reason to insult fellow timeshare owners by anyone.  We need to improve our debating skills by lifting the conversations above street level.  I will admit that I sometimes go astray my self...Iim human too.



I agree with you. We are all human, but that's kind of character is not acceptable for a potential leadership role.


----------



## PerryM

larry_WM said:


> I agree with you. We are all human, but that's kind of character is not acceptable for a potential leadership role.



I believe that PA is doing what he believes best for the WM owners – I think he’s patching a gaping hole in the WM ship with a band aid but he did take lots of his time and money to do so.  I applaud all the WM candidates for doing so too.

If PA, or any outsider, gets on the WM BOD they will feel the full weight of a Billion $ company that plays hard ball 24/7.  I don’t believe any meaningful change will occur and believe the relationship between WM owners and Wyndham  will plummet along with our resale prices of WM credits.  I will hold PA or any other WM BOD member responsible for declining WM resale credits once the new BOD is seated.

Performance of elected officials that is measurable seems to be something that we, those affected by these elected officials, never seem to bring up.  Fortunately I am not bashful.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Worldmark Larry, the funny thing about this is that Perry, BocaBum and PA don't take one another very seriously.  They love the banter and would all be happy to sit down and break bread together, because they would consider one another as friends.  Perry is probably getting such a kick out of the debate.  They all own Worldmark and all love it, but Perry thinks PA cannot make a difference on the board, while PA disagrees because he wants to give it a try.  

You are just an outsider looking in for a peek at what has amused me for 2 1/2 years.  We need Hatrack back to give some balance to this conversation.  He would be a good "mediator."  Believe me when I tell you this, these guys love to debate.  I didn't really see any name calling here.


----------



## larry_WM

rickandcindy23 said:


> .
> 
> You are just an outsider looking in for a peek at what has amused me for 2 1/2 years.  We need Hatrack back to give some balance to this conversation.  He would be a good "mediator."  Believe me when I tell you this, these guys love to debate.  I didn't really see any name calling here.



Yes, I have a lot of respect to Hatrack. Suddenly he was disappeared. I would vote for him if he is running for BOD


----------



## FLYNZ4

larry_WM said:


> Yes, I have a lot of respect to Hatrack. Suddenly he was disappeared. I would vote for him if he is running for BOD


Did you vote for him?  He was running this year.   Also, if you read his candidate statements, he clearly asked people to not vote for him... but to vote for Philip instead.

/Jim


----------



## rickandcindy23

I haven't talked to Hatrack for a year.  He is a busy guy.


----------



## larry_WM

FLYNZ4 said:


> Did you vote for him?  He was running this year.   Also, if you read his candidate statements, he clearly asked people to not vote for him... but to vote for Philip instead.
> 
> /Jim



Who is he? I didn't know that.


----------



## BocaBum99

PerryM said:


> Hey, listen if it feels good to besmirch fellow Tuggers then go right ahead.  Feel better?
> 
> BB is correct that you can get 59-day II exchanges with 4,000 WM credits that cost 6¢ to rent and you can get a 2BR Marriott Maui Ocean Club for $240 + $135 or $375.  I believe BB paid $275 too much and NO upfront cash of $1,500 is needed – way too much money BB.
> 
> PA, you use your people skills with the WM BOD – I will chart your progress and measure your accomplishments if you should get on the BOD.
> 
> I don’t know about you but I feel better…  Who should be belittle next…
> 
> See how silly this is guys.



Perry, 

See this is an example of your close, but no cigar logic skills.  I do respect your intellect and I love your writing style. We are on the same side of most issues and I've learned a lot from you.  All I wanted to do was point out that your proclamations are often times not correct nor thoroughly considered.   This is just but one example of being 95% correct is not always good enough.

You actually know this, but you must have forgotten.   WorldMark could not grab this 2br Marriott unit because of the 3-day Marriott preference period.  So, I didn't over pay.  In fact, I may have gotten it at the lowest possible total cost.

As for using a summit watch Gold week.  You could have done that, but you would have paid more capital for that exchange.

How does this relate to the subject of this thread?  I believe you are using the same glossing over the details approach when making assertions about PAs objectives and activities wrt to the WorldMark Board and the possible impact he will have and is having.  Same flawed and poorly considered logic.  

As for what you perceive as attacks.  Pot, Kettle and Black are the 3 words that come to mind.


----------



## BocaBum99

PerryM said:


> I believe that PA is doing what he believes best for the WM owners – I think he’s patching a gaping hole in the WM ship with a band aid but he did take lots of his time and money to do so.  I applaud all the WM candidates for doing so too.
> 
> If PA, or any outsider, gets on the WM BOD they will feel the full weight of a Billion $ company that plays hard ball 24/7.  I don’t believe any meaningful change will occur and believe the relationship between WM owners and Wyndham  will plummet along with our resale prices of WM credits.  I will hold PA or any other WM BOD member responsible for declining WM resale credits once the new BOD is seated.
> 
> Performance of elected officials that is measurable seems to be something that we, those affected by these elected officials, never seem to bring up.  Fortunately I am not bashful.



Now this is a reasonable position.  I agree that there is no guarantee that PAs activities will result in something positive for WorldMark owners.  I do give him credit for trying.

It could result in Wyndham letting WorldMark languish like Equivest.  Some would argue that that would be better for owners.  Others would argue that it wouldn't.


----------



## BocaBum99

PA- said:


> Wow, Boca, Game ON, Dude!  What got you going.  You know you can't throw down the glove on Perry, he won't quit til he gets the last word.  I only hope that a new thread is started to hold this "debate".  Otherwise, this thread just got off on a new track.



Sorry for derailing your thread.  I'll refrain from doing it as much as I can going forward.

Sometimes someone has to point out when the emperor has no clothes.

I don't mind when that happens except when that person can't see.


----------



## PerryM

*Measured performance....*



BocaBum99 said:


> Now this is a reasonable position.  I agree that there is no guarantee that PAs activities will result in something positive for WorldMark owners.  I do give him credit for trying.
> 
> It could result in Wyndham letting WorldMark languish like Equivest.  Some would argue that that would be better for owners.  Others would argue that it wouldn't.



I don't know when and if PA or someone else from the "outside" ever gets on the WM BOD but here is how I'm going to measure their impact:

I get eMails every day from many WM resellers -I'm going to pick one, Jeff Fudge, and keep all of them from now on.  Then I'm going to run an average of the last 20 offers (Normalized with 6 cent rentals) and publish this statistic on WMowners.com 

We will then get a clear picture of how things are going on in the mind of the WM owners wanting out.

If the average resale goes up one year from now I will jump for joy, if the average goes down I'll ask for scalps.

Hopefully there won't be a lot of bickering about this since anyone can cook up their own measuring stick - mine is NOT subjective but measurable, verifiable, and can be duplicated.

We will then see if "WorldMark by owners for owners" is just a bumper sticker on a rusted out idea.

Simple...


----------



## PA-

PerryM said:


> ...
> I get eMails every day from many WM resellers -I'm going to pick one, Jeff Fudge, and keep all of them from now on.  Then I'm going to run an average of the last 20 offers (Normalized with 6 cent rentals) and publish this statistic on WMowners.com
> 
> We will then get a clear picture of how things are going on in the mind of the WM owners wanting out.
> ...



Just my opinion of course, but I believe you've picked the one reseller guaranteed to give the most variable data (hence least reliable).  Why?  Because Jeff Fudge allows the owner to pick their own price, and he simply deducts his commission.  So an owner that's unknowledgeable might take far less than they need to, or might price so high they don't get a sale.

A much more reliable barometer is average Ebay pricing, though that requires more work to monitor.  A simple, yet more reliable measure than Jeff Fudge would be one of the resellers that has a set price (like redseasons).


----------



## PA-

By the way, it might take more than a year for an independent board to have an impact on resale pricing.  In fact, it may initially go lower.

If Wyndham loses control of the board, their first reaction might be to stop building and send out scare letters to owners, telling them that if they don't elect them back onto the board they will no longer continue their participation.  Although that might actually be preferable to adding high credit properties, it could create an environment that reduces resale prices.

Of course, over the long haul, if Wyndham decides they HAVE to deal with an independent board, things will normalize and then get better.  But it may take a while.

Wyndham is not in a position to walk away from Worldmark permanently.  They paid $900million for Trendwest, they aren't likely to walk away from that investment.  They continue to make megabucks in profit, they're going nowhere.


----------



## PerryM

PA- said:


> Just my opinion of course, but I believe you've picked the one reseller guaranteed to give the most variable data (hence least reliable).  Why?  Because Jeff Fudge allows the owner to pick their own price, and he simply deducts his commission.  So an owner that's unknowledgeable might take far less than they need to, or might price so high they don't get a sale.
> 
> A much more reliable barometer is average Ebay pricing, though that requires more work to monitor.  A simple, yet more reliable measure than Jeff Fudge would be one of the resellers that has a set price (like redseasons).



This is a great example of all of us holding hands and working on solutions - thanks PA.

I'll stick with Jeff since I've watched his eMails for 3+ years and he does insist that owners use common sense with their pricing.


----------



## PerryM

PA- said:


> By the way, it might take more than a year for an independent board to have an impact on resale pricing.  I*n fact, it may initially go lower.*
> 
> If Wyndham loses control of the board, their first reaction might be to stop building and send out scare letters to owners, telling them that if they don't elect them back onto the board they will no longer continue their participation.  Although that might actually be preferable to adding high credit properties, it could create an environment that reduces resale prices.
> 
> Of course, over the long haul, if Wyndham decides they HAVE to deal with an independent board, things will normalize and then get better.  But it may take a while.
> 
> Wyndham is not in a position to walk away from Worldmark permanently.  They paid $900million for Trendwest, they aren't likely to walk away from that investment.  They continue to make megabucks in profit, they're going nowhere.



I understand 100%.


----------



## PA-

BocaBum99 said:


> ...
> 
> It could result in Wyndham letting WorldMark languish like Equivest.  Some would argue that that would be better for owners.  Others would argue that it wouldn't.



Of course, Wyndham will threaten to do just that.  Gene has made this threat to myself and others for year.  They suggest that Wyndham would simply create Worldmark II and leave us alone.  My response is FINE.  Wyndham needs Worldmark much more than we need them.  They paid $900 million for Trendwest.  IF they start from scratch tomorrow, what are they going to do with the 5000+ they currently have on payroll?  How are they going to sell with zero dots on the map?  Would they realistically walk away from their customer list of 250,000 owners?  

Or, after we call their bluff, would they roll up their sleeves and work in cooperation with the board?


----------



## larry_WM

PerryM said:


> I get eMails every day from many WM resellers -I'm going to pick one, Jeff Fudge, and keep all of them from now on.  Then I'm going to run an average of the last 20 offers (Normalized with 6 cent rentals) and publish this statistic on WMowners.com


6 cents rental is not realistic. Look at ebay ( mostly 8 cents) and wmowners ads  ( 7 cents and 8 cents). I have follow price from Jeff ( in general cheaper than other dealers I know) since 2000, I lost most of the data somewhere but according one of the spreadsheet I still have. The average price in 2000 is 76 cents ( 25 data points, normalized 0 credit available, o month anniversary, 7 cent rental), the everage price in 2002 is 71 cents ( 15 data points), the average of first 9 month 2007 is 67 cents ( 200 data points), the average of october is 62 cents. I saw some panic selling here.It's a good time to buy so I bought 2 more accounts, one at 50 cents and one at 55 cents





PerryM said:


> If the average resale goes up one year from now I will jump for joy, if the average goes down I'll ask for scalps.
> 
> Hopefully there won't be a lot of bickering about this since anyone can cook up their own measuring stick - mine is NOT subjective but measurable, verifiable, and can be duplicated.
> 
> We will then see if "WorldMark by owners for owners" is just a bumper sticker on a rusted out idea.
> 
> Simple...




It's true that the trend is down. I am not planning to sell them for another 10 years so I don't care much if the resale price go up or go down. If it goes down more I will buy more, it's harder to plan your vacation nowaday with small account. There are more and more educated owner in the game !


----------



## PerryM

larry_WM said:


> 6 cents rental is not realistic. Look at ebay ( mostly 8 cents) and wmowners ads  ( 7 cents and 8 cents). I have follow price from Jeff ( in general cheaper than other dealers I know) since 2000, I lost most of the data somewhere but according one of the spreadsheet I still have. The average price in 2000 is 76 cents ( 25 data points, normalized 0 credit available, o month anniversary, 7 cent rental), the everage price in 2002 is 71 cents ( 15 data points), the average of first 9 month 2007 is 67 cents ( 200 data points), the average of october is 62 cents. I saw some panic selling here.It's a good time to buy so I bought 2 more accounts, one at 50 cents and one at 55 cents
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's true that the trend is down. I am not planning to sell them for another 10 years so I don't care much if the resale price go up or go down. If it goes down more I will buy more, it's harder to plan your vacation nowaday with small account. There are more and more educated owner in the game !



I’ve never rented any WM credits so I must go with a figure that others report.

However, no matter what price I pick from 5¢ to 10¢ owners say that the price is unreasonable and come up with another price.  

I’ve used 6¢ for normalizing accounts for 4+ years now and that’s what I’ll use.  Others can create their own measuring sticks.

The goal is to use a standardized method to come up with an average asking price for a WM credit BEFORE new board members are installed and then to use the same mythology 1 year from then and see the results.

Will Wyndham retaliate against WM owners?  Will they cooperate and begin to fix things?  Those two numbers calculated above will act as an excellent barometer of how WM owners feel – at least the ones wanting nothing more to do with WM.

Falling prices will indicate that things are not getting any better.  Rising prices will reflect increased confidence in WM.  Lets wait and see.


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## drguy

Just as a small indication of rental prices today, I've rented about 37,000      (36,925)credits in the past 3 months.  All were for 5 cents/credit.  Some have asked more and I've declined.  I've had them come back and accept my offer.  The asking price is the MOST someone will accept.
Guy


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## LLW

drguy said:


> Just as a small indication of rental prices today, I've rented about 37,000      (36,925)credits in the past 3 months.  All were for 5 cents/credit.  Some have asked more and I've declined.  I've had them come back and accept my offer.  The asking price is the MOST someone will accept.
> Guy



That is interesting. Guy, for the 37,000 credits, how many deals did you have to negotiate through and how many did you end up with? Did you have to pay first, pay dues to WM for them, or have the credits in your account before you paid? How long did it take for each deal from start to finish, on average?


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## larry_WM

drguy said:


> Just as a small indication of rental prices today, I've rented about 37,000      (36,925)credits in the past 3 months.  All were for 5 cents/credit.  Some have asked more and I've declined.  I've had them come back and accept my offer.  The asking price is the MOST someone will accept.
> Guy


Am I missing something? I tried to rent for 6 cents in vain. I guess to have a title Dr would get you a lot of discount. In this case who need to buy more credit when we can rent unlimited with 5 cents? Who need to join Travelshaft to have funtime for 7 cents when we can book 3 month in advance with just 5 cents?


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## PerryM

Renting WM credits is a free market - just like eBay.  Everyday brings new and different deals.

Like I said, name a rental price and folks will tell you that you paid too much or that it was once in a million year deal...


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## cruisin

Most people get great rental rates from the trendwest owned forum. Since many owners only go to that site, and Trendwest does not allow information, or posting a price,  it is very easy for a savvy owner to find people clueless as to the value of the credits they rent.


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## drguy

LLW said:


> That is interesting. Guy, for the 37,000 credits, how many deals did you have to negotiate through and how many did you end up with? Did you have to pay first, pay dues to WM for them, or have the credits in your account before you paid? How long did it take for each deal from start to finish, on average?




I went through with 2 deals.  Took 2 days each.  I paid 1 with PayPal and another with a cashier's check.  Both payments were made after the credits were in my account.
I probably asked a total of 6 or 7 people what they were asking and told them what I had paid.  It works for some people and not others.
I read hints on wmowners.com and followed the advice.  No tough negotiations at all.  Everyone has a right to charge whatever amount they want for their credits, just as I have the right to choose how much I'll pay for them.  If the people want more than I'm willing to pay, I simply respond thank, but no thanks.
Guy


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## FLYNZ4

larry_WM said:


> Am I missing something? I tried to rent for 6 cents in vain. I guess to have a title Dr would get you a lot of discount. In this case who need to buy more credit when we can rent unlimited with 5 cents? Who need to join Travelshaft to have funtime for 7 cents when we can book 3 month in advance with just 5 cents?


Larry,

In general, I think that rental prices are rising slowly.  I also think there will be a bump in prices if WYN discontinues FAX.   It used to be easy to rent at $0.05... and obviously it is still possible as Guy points out.   Still, I think that is below market.    I would estimate the average price to be closer to $0.07 right now.

Funtime is $0.06, not $0.07,  and it also includes a free HK

You are correct... currently, there is little reason to buy more credits because rentals are relatively cheap.     There are some advantages of larger account such as the ability to book more weekend only reservations.

Personally, I do not think that TravelShare makes a lot of sense unless you already own 58K TS eligble credits.

/Jim


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## larry_WM

FLYNZ4 said:


> Larry,
> 
> In general, I think that rental prices are rising slowly.  I also think there will be a bump in prices if WYN discontinues FAX.   It used to be easy to rent at $0.05... and obviously it is still possible as Guy points out.   Still, I think that is below market.    I would estimate the average price to be closer to $0.07 right now.
> 
> Funtime is $0.06, not $0.07,  and it also includes a free HK
> 
> You are correct... currently, there is little reason to buy more credits because rentals are relatively cheap.     There are some advantages of larger account such as the ability to book more weekend only reservations.
> 
> Personally, I do not think that TravelShare makes a lot of sense unless you already own 58K TS eligble credits.
> 
> /Jim


Thanks, I think
Cheap rental credit will be over soon. There are more and more demand.
Why join TravelShare with buying another 5000 credit at developer price ( almost 10K), with 12K we can buy a NHK account at. Booking  less than a week window is 12 wks, it will beat funtime of any tier. And the most important thing, you don't have to pay for TS fee.


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## FLYNZ4

larry_WM said:


> Thanks, I think
> Cheap rental credit will be over soon. There are more and more demand.
> Why join TravelShare with buying another 5000 credit at developer price ( almost 10K), with 12K we can buy a NHK account at. *Booking  less than a week window is 12 wks, it will beat funtime of any tier.* And the most important thing, you don't have to pay for TS fee.


The statement about partial week booking is orthoganal to the TS vs. non-TS decision.   The same booking windows apply to TS and non-TS accounts... and HK or NHK accounts.

I agree that a true NHK account is much more valuable than a TS Platinum Elite account.   If I had to give up either of mine... the TS account would be the first to go.

/Jim


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## rallen

Issues from other boards don't belong on TUG - thanks.


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