# [2011] How do you choose the right college?



## Zac495 (Jul 26, 2011)

I can't believe I spent today looking at colleges with my son. He's going into 11th so it's a little early -but it felt right. We saw Pitt and Carnegie Mellon today.

Are the private colleges (like Carnegie) really going to give a kid a HUGE boost over a very good college like Pitt?

What is most important? How did those of you who have been through this choose? What did you take into consideration (besides the obvious answer of money).

thanks all!


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## DeniseM (Jul 26, 2011)

Ellen - I think their major is a big consideration.  For example, my cousin's daughter got accepted to Yale - so she went to Yale.  Her dad is a cop and her mom has an in-home child care - not wealthy people - and they will be paying for it forever.  Ready for the kicker?  She got a teaching credential and is teaching kindergarten.  I'm sure it was great for her to be accepted to a prestigious college - but you sure don't need to go to Yale to teach kindergarten.  

Both of my kids were bright, but immature, and were underachievers in high school, so we told them that we would pay for them to attend our local Jr. college and if/when they graduated from JC, they could pick a 4 year college to attend.  My daughter graduated and then decided to go to our local state college, and got a teaching credential.  My son (who has autism) is in his 6th year of Jr. College - but that's OK - he only needs 2 more classes to graduate.

There are so many things to consider and maturity is a big one.  Do you think your son will be ready to go away to college in a year?  Are you aware of the high failure rate for freshmen away from home for the first time?


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## loafingcactus (Jul 26, 2011)

You can find some research that level of prestige affects lower income background students more than higher income background students; it provides the social education and networking that lower income youth didn't get from their family connections.

Something I know now that I didn't know when I was 17 is that it is impossible to know if you are having good or bad fortune until everything is done.  So picking is largely luck rather than the things you think you are picking.  If its a truly awful match, the youth can always move.

I went to a small liberal arts college and to a huge university.  They both provided different things, and the most valuable things to me weren't institutional but were specific people... fortune, not picking, there.


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## learnalot (Jul 26, 2011)

Zac495 said:


> I can't believe I spent today looking at colleges with my son. He's going into 11th so it's a little early -but it felt right. We saw Pitt and Carnegie Mellon today.
> 
> Are the private colleges (like Carnegie) really going to give a kid a HUGE boost over a very good college like Pitt?
> 
> ...



Hi Ellen,

It can depend on what he plans to study.  Certain schools are known for certain programs.  I think if he is looking at a sort of general/liberal arts type program, the difference between two schools won't matter as much as it might if he has a particular focus or passion.

If I had a student that wanted to pursue music as their primary focus, I wouldn't steer them towards anywhere with a marginal program even if the school itself were top tier. (There are better places to study music than Harvard, for instance).


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## Sea Six (Jul 26, 2011)

My experience during the recruitment process was that it is better to do well with extra-curricular activities at a lesser school than to do poorly at a great school and not have activities.  Key being, grades are not all that matters.  Pick a school you can not only do well in class, but contribute to the school with activities.


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## ampaholic (Jul 26, 2011)

Pitt is a good school as is CM - I think the intended major is the trump card.

If your child wants to go into medicine or medical research I would consider The University of Pennsylvania as it is very highly rated in that area.

University of Pennsylvania also has a highly rated Law school.

Of course if money is no object and he has the grades - Harvard.

I went to a state school because I didn't have the bux for Stanford or the brains for Cal Tech - it worked out OK for me.


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## Ridewithme38 (Jul 26, 2011)

When i was graduating high school i was told: "If you not going Ivy League, it doesn't really matter where you go"


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## Sea Six (Jul 26, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> When i was graduating high school i was told: "If you not going Ivy League, it doesn't really matter where you go"



TRUTH! It doesn't matter where you go - it matters how you do and how you end up.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 26, 2011)

The summer before 11th grade is the EXPLORE college campuses window. Not early at all.

My 18 yo nephew was admitted to the Scholars Program at the U of Maryland at College Park - he and his mom just attended the 2 day summer orientation (past Thurs & Fri) - separate lectures for son on both days; mom went only on Thurs. The kids even had a sleep over in their un-cool dorm rooms (no a/c at 103F). He was not admitted to the MORE prestigious Presidential Program, but his PIA friend who I could not stand, was. Nephew's program included the separate dorm and a 2 year on campus housing promise. Presidential Program attendees get 4 year dorm promise in the twin dorm next to my nephew's dorm.

Nephew looked at CM and Pitt, too. And U of P. Was admitted to Lehigh, Va Tech, and U of Maryland. He graduated HS with 45 college credits due to his AP classes & test scores. Oh, did I mention his 800 SAT in Math and his AP Level 2 Math 780? 

Meanwhile, that PIA friend of his graduated #1 in the class(540+ kids), never got a grade lower than an A, took all the AP classes (more than nephew), and tested better on the SATs. He did NOT get into CM, U of P, Columbia (his must go to school), and a few others. Need I say, U of MD was NOT his 1st thru 4th choice. My sister liked PIA boy, the HS school like PIA => I detested the kid when I met him 18 months ago. 

Getting into college is NOT the same game that it was when most of us went. 

*My best advice and words of wisdom* from my sister - the helicoptoring MOM. *NETWORK.* Network with the moms a year ahead of your son. Network with the moms of your son's classmates who already got a child in a school or major your son is interested in. Network with the parents' whose kids who go private high school.


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## davemy (Jul 26, 2011)

My Daughter told me where she was going and she didn't care what me and her mother thought. She is in the Nursing Program at Duquesne and is entering her Senior year and will graduate in fours years. We had money put away where she could of gone to a state school and would of had no debt when she graduated. She didn't care. Now she's going to have lots of debt and payments afterward. Pittsburgh is a great college town, my daughter loves it there.


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## NWL (Jul 26, 2011)

A lot has changed since most of us here on TUG had to decide where to go.  In the mid 1970's, I had to rely on my Guidance Counselor to find me a list of schools that had majors in Broadcasting and Film.  Not many students asked for that information, so she really had to work to find schools for me to consider.  She did a great job with the resources she had and I always remember Mrs. Cashion with great fondness!

Flash forward to 4 years ago.  My sister goes to church with a woman who has a company that looks for schools for students based on a questionnaire that they fill out that asks them what they want to major in, urban or rural school, cost, etc.  My sister worked out a special rate for her services, and my niece is now a very happy Junior at Ithaca College majoring in, you guessed it, Broadcasting.   

Since you're in Pa., don't discount Penn State, my alma mater.    

Cheers!


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 26, 2011)

PS My sister has her 2nd son entering the 11th Grade in August. :hysterical: 

He has a great academic record in the county wide S.T.E.M. high school - 125 kids with special teachers, summer mandatory 2 week session, guest lecturers, optional clubs, etc. Phys Ed classes are held after school or before school as their day is too full. 4 years of this special HS education. 

Her saga and college visits have started again.


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## Conan (Jul 26, 2011)

We found this useful.  It's limited to 376 'name' schools, and has useful statistics and reviews/comparisons on each
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Colleges-College-Admissions-Guides/dp/0375428399/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311722756&sr=1-1


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## Zac495 (Jul 26, 2011)

Wow - great posts so far. 
A kid with almost 1600 didn't get into CM? That's so odd to me!
We go see Penn State next week!
This is fun, but confusing. I guess he'll have to just apply and see where he gets in - and then get more info. I mean - why do tons of research on CM if he doesn't get in? He is very mature and ready almost now - so he will go at 18.

His grades are straight A's thru 10th  - he's taking 2 AP courses next year so we'll see - that will be the true test.

I wonder if the private schools are "harder.".....


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## e.bram (Jul 26, 2011)

I agree with Ride except that I would add MIT, Caltech and Stanford.


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## ondeadlin (Jul 26, 2011)

Ellen,

I just finished law school, a career-change that allowed me to spend a great deal of time with some really talented 20-somethings who had just emerged from the undergrad experience.

The No. 1 thing they told me is that they really had very little idea what they wanted in life when they went to undergrad (and, for many of them, still hadn't figured it out, which was why they were in law school).

The No. 2 thing they told me is that they wished they'd been more aware how crippling student loans would be.  My 20-something friends were almost universally carrying between $20k and $80k in student loans.  It's not just from prestigious schools, either - many of them wracked up big numbers from schools you'd have barely heard of. Many of them took out loans not only for their tuition, but their living expenses - and were doing it again at law school!

My strong belief is that aside from a few super elite schools and a few particular programs, your undergraduate degree doesn't make much difference in your life outcome - the hustlers and workers succeed, regardless.  Picking a college these days is too often about parents trying to impress other parents, or kids wanting a football team to root for.

My guess is if your kid works hard, he will succeed regardless.  But he'll have a higher quality of life if he has fewer loans.

When it's time for my kids to pick, I'll encourage them to take a scholarship to a "lesser" school over paying big money at a big name.

And now, for nerdy facts:

Pitt is actually a historically private school. It's now called "state-related," but isn't really a public school like, say, Penn State.  The state supplies 9 percent of its budget, but it's controlled by a private board.


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## jlwquilter (Jul 26, 2011)

The top kids at good quality colleges and universities are all very bright indeed. The top kid at Harvard isn't necessarily smarter than the top kid at any other good university. Where it shakes out IMHO is the range of student 'quality'. The poorest performer at Harvard is probably better than the poorest performer at U of XYZ.

Money does matter. Alot of very smart kids can't go to the big buck schools. And some can't because of other reasons, like family situations.

I think fit is very important. Your child has to feel comfortable and excited/eager to go and  prepared mentally to give it the best shot possible.

OMG - college shopping after 10th grade?! I thought I had more time....


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 26, 2011)

Ellen,
My nephew was not near serious enough on this first essays and he is very quiet in interviews at the colleges. His verbal SAT score was around 640 and I never got the essay number. The AP Level 2 math is very hard and he only got 1 answer wrong. And yes, 800 means no wrong answers on the 3 hour test.

But *I can't tell you loud enough to network with the other parents.* My sister learn so much more than from the books or school vs her assortment of connections. Her middle child's friend had a sister in the International Backulaute HS applying for colleges and another of his friends was the older boy's teammate in the robotic's club (they roomed together on the 7 nite trip to London, too). 

The colleges are trying to get a balance in their majors. CM is top notch in computers which is my nephew's desire field. We truly were not that surprised - it would have been a much bigger surprise IF he had gotten in. That PIA boy, who truly was the star kid of testing and classroom and screen & stage, was getting rejection notices nonstop. Yes, smart with a personality who told you how smart. My sister did not know he even applied to U of MD.

The nephew's parents were happy he didn't choose Va Tech - fine school, but this is not the kid who should be a 5-6hr drive from home. Lehigh was his parent's college; he thought they would want him to go there also. U of MD is a fine fit.

Think of it this way - our population has more than tripled here in the US. Our HS going to college has grown even bigger. Most colleges (and the new colleges) have NOT double, let along triple or quadroupled to met the demand. When I applied to college, there were 8 Ivy League schools and 7 Sister schools. Bet their enrollments have not even gone up 150% in those years.


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## CMF (Jul 26, 2011)

Consider a two year community college and then going to the most respected school that fits the student's personality and offers the course of study desired.

Charles


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 26, 2011)

jlwquilter said:


> OMG - college shopping after 10th grade?! I thought I had more time....



U of Maryland's Scholar's program had an application date of Oct 31st in the senior year. That is NOT the early decision application date.

And the applications are all done online now.


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## heathpack (Jul 26, 2011)

It definitely matters where you go- a good school will give you a better education, which is the whole point.  However, there are a great many public colleges that can do the job more cost effectively and not leave the student massively in debt.

In my mind, he should be looking at the college which will provide the broadest possible opportunity at the least cost, there is no way he can know what he wants to do right now.  In high school, my interests were 100% literature and history, totally hated science.  In college, I changed majors a number of times: history, English, comparative literature (classical Chinese poetry of all things), biology, and chemistry (not so much a waffler, just was interested in a lot of things).  Finally graduated with a degree in English literature & then went to veterinary school.  So one never can tell what you'll do, I say go for a big affordable public university.

Another comment: I personally think it is a great thing to leave your local area for college, exposure yourself to another subculture of the US.  I grew up on Long Island, in the suburbs of NYC.  Went to North Carolina for college, awesome experience, boy was my mind blown by shaggin', pig pickins, NASCAR and Cheerwine.  It was totally different than the world I knew previously and a very broadening experience.

H


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## Helene4 (Jul 26, 2011)

Physically go and LOOK at the school. Both of my kids walked onto 2 different campuses and said "Let's get back in the car".  Seeing the other students, campus and location really are as important as the education, because if they are miserable from a bad choice, the quality of the educators won't matter.


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## carl2591 (Jul 26, 2011)

know what they call some one who graduates from Harvard or some one that graduates from another school with a medical degree...


That's right doctor.. the degree from Harvard leaves you with thousands more debt than the other school.  You might get a nicer position with a Harvard degree or not, either way you still have to pay it back. (student loans.)


I think the comment about 2yrs at community college make the most sense.


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## ronparise (Jul 26, 2011)

Helene4 said:


> Physically go and LOOK at the school. Both of my kids walked onto 2 different campuses and said "Let's get back in the car".  Seeing the other students, campus and location really are as important as the education, because if they are miserable from a bad choice, the quality of the educators won't matter.



Nothing better than a college tour to help make the decision


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## ampaholic (Jul 26, 2011)

carl2591 said:


> know what they call some one who graduates from Harvard or some one that graduates from another school with a medical degree...
> 
> 
> That's right doctor.. the degree from Harvard leaves you with thousands more debt than the other school.  You might get a nicer position with a Harvard degree or not, either way you still have to pay it back. (student loans.)
> ...



Does a Harvard Degree have value:

Caroline Hoxby, an economist at Harvard specializing in the economics of education, has done research on just that question. She placed several hundred schools in eight ranks based on the SAT scores of their students. She looked at students who entered these colleges in 1960, 1972, and 1982, then examined their earnings at age 32. 

Using 1997-98 tuition figures, Hoxby concluded that a student who gave up a full scholarship at a Rank Three private college to pay full price at a Rank One selective college earned back the difference in cost *3.4 times* over his lifetime. Those who moved from paying average tuition at a Rank Three public college to paying average tuition at a Rank One private school earned back the difference in cost more than *30 times over. *That remarkable statistic demonstrates the very real gap between what happens in classrooms at, say, the University of Florida and MIT.

I guess size, er quality does matter


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 26, 2011)

Zac495 said:


> I can't believe I spent today looking at colleges with my son. He's going into 11th so it's a little early -but it felt right. We saw Pitt and Carnegie Mellon today.
> 
> Are the private colleges (like Carnegie) really going to give a kid a HUGE boost over a very good college like Pitt?
> 
> ...



Ellen,

At the end of the day, what matters the most is the University that is going to inspire your son to put everything he has into something with total passion.  It needs to be the place that he loves and will always identify as his alma mater.  Attending an Ivy League University is meaningless if he doesn't love it.

Top Universities open more doors.  They also tend to have more competitive students.  But, all that is trumped by the talent and drive of the graduate when they leave school.

I agree with the idea of visiting a bunch of Universities.  It will be obvious which one is right for your son.

I am currently in the process with my oldest son who will be a senior in high school.  We are heading next week to the East Coast to visit Universities there.  He already took a trip to California with his class during Spring Break.  So, he is already zeroing in on the Universities he wants to attend.   He just needs to apply and get accepted.


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## bogey21 (Jul 26, 2011)

Sea Six said:


> TRUTH! It doesn't matter where you go - it matters how you do and how you end up.



A lot of truth to this.  It took me 12 years and 9 universities to graduate because of time in the military and night school as I was transferred multiple times by my employer.  I went to some well regarded private universities and a number of State schools.  IMO the calibur of instruction was about the same everywhere.  Some great instructors in the least likely places and some duds in some of the better (by reputation) schools.

My advice would be Junior College for 2 years then choose where to go by what your Son was going to major in.

I will list the schools I attended to give you some perspective as to my comments.  University of North Carolina; San Jose State; Drexel University; University of Houston; Washington University (St Louis); New York University; St Josephs and Temple (both in Philadelphia); and Southern Illinois University where I graduated with Honors.

George


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## jlr10 (Jul 26, 2011)

Take your son to the schools.  The very best advice.  DS was accepted at 5 colleges, in the engineering department.  He walked onto the campus at CalPoly Pomona listened to a few professors and said "Yep. This is where I want to go."  He liked it and has been quite happy going there.

What I liked in the Orientation was there comparison between CalPoly Pomona and CalPoly San Luis Obisbo (SLO.)  SLO is more impacted and is supposed to be harder to get into (DS did not apply there.) As they pointed out at the end, those who graduate with an engineering degree from CalPoly Pomona are still getting a great degree from a highly ranked school, and will be able to do the exact same work as those graduating from SLO. ( -Best part were the t-shirts they sell "What do people who graduate from SLO call those who graduate from CalPoly Pomona?  -Boss" keeping it all in perspective)

I spoke to several engineers and asked them if the school made a big difference.  All said it might make a very slight difference in the first job only.  After that it is all about what they can do.

Several of DS's friends went away to expensive out of state colleges.  Many have dropped out and have student loans they will have to pay back, with no degree to show for it.  DS is still debt free at a state college and slowly working towards his degree at a school he likes.  We think he made the right choice, but it was one we let him make.


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## Conan (Jul 27, 2011)

Besides working on a list of schools to apply to, you also have to play the admissions game.  So many kids have high grades and AP courses, it's extracurriculars and intangibles that can make the difference.  Public service, especially if the kid can find a need and start a program to address it, are the surest way to give the committee what it's looking for.


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## Serina (Jul 27, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> Ellen,
> 
> At the end of the day, what matters the most is the University that is going to inspire your son to put everything he has into something with total passion.  It needs to be the place that he loves and will always identify as his alma mater.



I agree!  My DS is going into 11th grade... Just remember to enjoy the time with your kids in their junior and senior years in high school. I've seen too many parents worry (and make their kids crazy) over college choices that they forget to enjoy their last couple of years at home. There's lots of great colleges/universities out there - it needs to be a good fit for your child.


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## glypnirsgirl (Jul 27, 2011)

I think that Boca has it right on. 

I went to a large high school where I was in the top ten per cent of my class and most of my friends were in the top 20 (which made them in the top 4 per cent - it was a big school). They were both smarter and harder working than I was. Of those approximately 30 friends (we were all in AP classes for everything), ONLY ONE PERSON that went to one of the large state universities graduated. He was an engineer that went to Texas A&M. Several of the young women went to University of Texas and had what I would describe as nervous breakdowns. 

I won a full ride scholarship to a small private liberal arts college which almost no one has ever heard of: Southwestern University in Georgetown, Texas. There used to not be much to do in Georgetown, so most of the students do things on campus. It led to a great college experience for me. I changed my major from chemistry to economics because the business building was air conditioned and the science building was not - and I think that I ended up better off for it. I absolutely loved school there. Most of my best friends are people that I met there. 

I had narrowed my choices to the two extremes: large public schools (University of Texas and A&M) and small private liberal arts schools (Austin College and Southwestern). I did a college weekend at Southwestern. And I knew that was where I wanted to go. 

I think that visiting the campuses to get to the short list is important. Knowing what you think you want to major in and finding a college that has a first rate program in your desired major comes second. 

I thought that Carnegie Mellon has an excellent endowment which allows lots of financial aid for their students, but I might be wrong. It certainly is an excellent engineering school. One of my uncles graduated with his PhD from there (while it was named something else that I don't remember). He invented RAM memory and is a fellow at IBM. But, his undergraduate degree was from SMU because it was much closer to home. 

I think that a good fit is most important. If all you do is sit in your dorm room and smoke (like my friends that went to UT), it doesn't matter how smart you are or what your major is because you will be miserable and drop out. 

The only way to judge a good fit is to try it on.

elaine


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## davhu1 (Jul 27, 2011)

Ellen,

It is not too early.  This is the time where you S needs to have an idea what he wants to major and start looking for programs that are intersting to him.  Determine what type of college fits him better (size, location, public, private...).  Get a list of about a dozen colleges that includes safety, match and reach.  Make college visit in the spring and narrow down the list in the summer before senior year.  You will likely change the list after college visits and meeting with the HS counselor.

Find out what the colleges on the list is looking for and thier emphasis:  GPA, SAT, EC and essay.  Start on SAT prep.  Round up the EC list (many look for leadership positions and voluteering).  Many college post their essay by August.  Never to early to put your thoughts together and start a draft.

When applying, remember that it is not how good your GPA, SAT, etc, but how the college wants to formulate thier class among the applicants.  At an information session in Cornell, the admission officer says "4.0 and perfect SATs, we have plenty of those, but if we need a trombone player in our band and we think you can do well, then you are in."  Another words, find the nich.  Also public school are not inferior to Ivies.  Many top students choose them for financial reasons.  Some top public schools are extremely competitive, specially for out of state students.  Students with 4.0 and nearly perfect SAT are known not getting accetpted at UC Berkely and UVA.


CM has a very good reputation for enginnering and computer science and is more favorable for job recruiment, provided the students have similar credentials.  Certainly a top student at Pitt would do better than someone at the bottom of the class at CM.  If CM is your S first choice, consider attending thier pre-college program if cost is not an issue.  Not sure that it will help, but everyone my S knew who attended were accepted.  (My S attended but choose not to apply).

I think the most important thing is to find a college with the best fit with opportunities to participate in other area of interest.  Some tuggers suggested comminity college first.  My S said the transfers from community college he knows do not do well and take a siginificant hit in their gpa in his school.  I would do some investigating how strong is you community college and how well can they prepare you to the college of your choice.

collegeconfidential.com is a forum all about colleges.   Have fun with your college search.


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## Twinkstarr (Jul 27, 2011)

I went to Purdue and majored in chemistry, after being accepted at Northwestern(dad put his foot down as way too much for tuition), Illinois, UVA, Boston College and at the time the automatic acceptance at Ohio State due to GPA/ACT.

Get out and look at the schools. I hated the layout at OSU way too big and spread out. I really liked the Purdue campus as it was rather compact for a big university. I took 2yrs of chemistry in hs, so I was put in advanced freshman chemistry. Some of those classmates are still friends 20+yrs later.

While Purdue is great if you are interested in science, engineering, agriculture, it was somewhat of a joke if you were interested in liberal arts. So I would look at what subjects the school is strong in.

One of my friends was a political science major, I don't think I ever saw her write a paper. She hardly had any work other than to read and take tests. 

And yes I did see kids who were highly ranked in their hs classes crumble under the pressure of their first year of college and quit. One girl didn't even make it the 1st month of school, lived down the hall from me.

Also noticed some non-Midwesterners leave after a semester or 2. My one friend ended up having her own room for most of the year after her roomate headed back to NYC after Thanksgiving.


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## DebBrown (Jul 27, 2011)

ondeadlin said:


> Ellen,
> 
> I just finished law school, a career-change that allowed me to spend a great deal of time with some really talented 20-somethings who had just emerged from the undergrad experience.
> 
> ...



I agree with the above!  Having four kids go to college, I've been through this a few times and watched their friends go through it too.  NONE of my kids and only about 20% of their friends graduated from the school they attended as freshman.  After all the time put into make a college choice, it seems many kids still don't pick the best school for them.

My youngest is on his third school and at least his third major.  He will graduate this year with no debt and is happy with his choices and prospects.  

Deb


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## e.bram (Jul 27, 2011)

If you get into an IVY (or MIT, Caltech and Stanford)go for it. It gives a kind of elitism(good or bad?) which aids one's self confidence for your whole life. You know, "I went to *******".


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## tombo (Jul 27, 2011)

Look at the top 25 football rankings. Like Coach Bryant said: it is great to have a distinguished math department but you can never get the alumni to rally around the math team (paraphrased).

You mention Penn State. We beat them last year and will play at Penn State this year. If we win 2 in a row you have to rule Penn State out and choose Bama. 

The reality is that Bama's out of state tutition and that of many southern universities is often cheaper than in state at many northern Universities. One of my best friends in college was from Michigan and his father was a VP worldwide of a Ford division. He came to Bama for the football (spectator not player) and said it was cheaper than in state at Michigan State. 

All kidding aside unless you are wealthy OR POOR, Ivy League schools are unaffordable. The poor go there for free subsidised byt the wealthy, the government, and the working stiffs who go too far in debt for a 4 year degree IMO. At about $60,000 to $70,000 a year a 4 year Ivy degree will cost $200,000 or more compared to around $50,000 for a public school. The connections and jobs will undoubtably be better at the Ivy league schools, but if you have 2 kids a $400,000 outlay over an 8 year period is just not feasible for most. 

Look at their desired degree and search for the best public schools on the net. My school is ranked 34th on the 2011 USA Today's top schools. Florida, Georgia, and UNC Chapel Hill are tope 20.
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandr...ges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

Sela Ward who went to Alabama and is an Emmy award winning actress. I know a space shuttle atsronaut who piloted 4 shuttle missions and went on several others as a crew member who received his engineering degree from Bama. I know a lawyer (Bama's law school is one of the top ranked in the whole USA) who is on CNN and FOX news discussing current cases often, He owns a 15 million dollar summer home in south Florida, a maryland Home woth millions, and a 2 bed room condo with a rooftop balcony a few blocks from the capital worth millions. 3 examples of what can be done with a degree from a public university. If they were Ivy graduates they would be shown as what you can do with an Ivy league dgree. They are however simply Bama graduates that dunn good. A public college degree does not limit one's career opportunities, and it is much more affordable.


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## Elan (Jul 27, 2011)

I would recommend that your child go somewhere that makes them optimistic, motivated, independent and responsible for their own success/failure (no blaming mom/dad later for them washing out, etc).  

  Beyond that, nobody really cares where one went to school.


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## CapriciousC (Jul 27, 2011)

e.bram said:


> If you get into an IVY (or MIT, Caltech and Stanford)go for it. It gives a kind of elitism(good or bad?) which aids one's self confidence for your whole life. You know, "I went to *******".



As an MIT grad, I agree with this.  It's been 20 years since I finished my undergrad there, and it still carries a cache that hasn't worn off.

Seriously, though - I agree to look at what your son wants to major in, and also what he wants to do with that degree when he finishes.  Is he interested in grad school?  Does he want to work in the private sector or academia?  Does he want to stay in the local area or have the ability to move around the country (and potentially the world) and have people recognize the name of the school he attended?

I think that going to a big name school is more important at the graduate level than at the undergraduate level.  The connections you make can serve you throughout your career.  

If he has a reasonable idea of what he wants to do, try to find someone who currently does that job for a living and ask them what they think, what they think worked for them and what didn't, what they would have done differently, etc.


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## 1950bing (Jul 27, 2011)

As one other said here, just check out the football program !
SEC has the best !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is nothing like NCAA football


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## e.bram (Jul 27, 2011)

But you always only an alumnus of your undergraduate institution.


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## CapriciousC (Jul 27, 2011)

1950bing said:


> As one other said here, just check out the football program !
> SEC has the best !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> There is nothing like NCAA football



I would, however, add the caution that the big football schools in the south tend to not be as well regarded academically outside of the south.  Here in Georgia people tend to think you can't do much better than UGA or Georgia Tech - in New York, Boston, Chicago, etc. the attitude is not the same.


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## tombo (Jul 27, 2011)

CapriciousC said:


> I would, however, add the caution that the big football schools in the south tend to not be as well regarded academically outside of the south.  Here in Georgia people tend to think you can't do much better than UGA or Georgia Tech - in New York, Boston, Chicago, etc. the attitude is not the same.



I assume that is your opinion. USA Today has a different more objective ranking system which shows the southern Universities are ranked higher than the NY schools. New York's top rated public school (SUNY) is ranked number 34 and tied with Bama. The second highest rated New York school is Bingham Suny ranked 38 according to USA Todays 2011 poll.  Georgia is ranked 18th far ahead of any New York public school. So not only are the locals proud of their college's athletic teams, they are also correct that Georgia is a higher academically ranked institution than any New York Public University according to the 2011 rankings of a national (not regional) publication.

Often people in the north east assume the south is uneducated and that our institutions of higher learning are lacking compared to many of their local institutions. Well look at the USA today 2011 rankings and many southern schools are top ranked, yet zero York Universities made the top 30. UNC Chapel hill is ranked 5th, University of Texas Austin is 13th, University of Florida is ranked 17th, Georgia is ranked 18th (tied with Purdue, Ohio State, and Univ of Maryland), Clemson is ranked 23rd, Virginia Tech is 27th, 

 #34  Miami University--Oxford 
Oxford, OH

  #34  Michigan State University 
East Lansing, MI

  #34  SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry 
Syracuse, NY

  #34  University of Alabama 
Tuscaloosa, AL

  #38  Auburn University 
Auburn University, AL

  #39  Binghamton University--SUNY  

Bama was ranked 34th in Public Universities, but 79 against ALL universities including the Ivy leagues.
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/page+9

A great athletic tradition does not preclude a University from excelling in academics too. Often the desire to win on the field is combined with the desire to win in the class room permeating the entire campus with enthusiasm and optimism. Typically schools with poor athletic programs like to proclaim that their education is better simply because they are tired of losing in sports. 

Bloomberg rates bama's business program top 30 in the US.
http://uanews.ua.edu/2011/06/two-ua-business-programs-in-top-30-in-bloomberg-businessweek-survey/

Here is a nice quote: "Out of 2,400 public and private universities nationwide, UA ranked No. 24 in number of National Merit scholars enrolled"
http://uanews.ua.edu/2010/02/ua-in-the-news-february-10-2010/

As an alumni if your football program is great you have reasons to return to campus and cheer on your alma mater each and every year. As an alumni if your school's debate team is world class and your child is not on that team, who cares? I would love to see a school with a waiting list for season tickets to debate or math competitions. Having a great athletic program combined with great academics is the best of both worlds. Don't be a hater....


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## ondeadlin (Jul 27, 2011)

Tombo,

Fair or not, the statement that an SEC won't carry much weight out of SEC country is probably true, with the exception of Vandy.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but that's certainly my experience over two careers.

Alabama's law school, btw, is top 30, top 35.  Very respectable, but you really have to be in the top 15 to be considered a "top" law school.

As someone who made a living covering college sports at the highest level, I think it's a corrosive force on academics. Too often it attracts students who are more interested in partying and socializing than excelling academically.


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## CapriciousC (Jul 27, 2011)

tombo said:


> Often people in the north east assume the south is undecuated and that our institutions of higher education are lacking compare to many of their local institutions.
> 
> Don't be a hater....



I'm not being a hater, and I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone.  As you can see, I live in Georgia.  However, I've lived a lot of other places before I lived here (including Europe).  Your initial comment quoted above is correct - people assume that academic institutions in the southern US are substandard.  Whether that assumption is right or wrong is somewhat irrelevant - it IS the assumption of a lot of people.  I just think it's something to factor in when considering a university.  When it comes time for our daughter to choose a school, my husband and I have every intention of encouraging her to look outside of the southeast, simply because of the above-mentioned prejudices/assumptions about schools in the south.  Whatever US News says, people are going to believe what they're going to believe.  

My husband attended (and played football for) the University of Southern California.  He is the first to admit that it's a great football school, but not necessarily the best academic school for all given majors.  We both work in aerospace, and I can tell you that in our field, people don't give a damn how good your school's football team was, they care about the quality of education you received.  However well the Bulldogs may be doing, a Georgia Tech grad is going to be better respected in our field because their engineering program is superior.  

I went to MIT.  We were certainly not known for athletics, but the school doesn't suffer in terms of alumni involvement and/or financial contributions, by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm glad that you're happy with your alma mater, as I am with mine.  I'm just trying to put out a differing viewpoint.  As a former college professor, I honestly wish schools would focus more on academics and less on athletics, but yes, that's just my opinion.


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## tombo (Jul 27, 2011)

CapriciousC said:


> We both work in aerospace, and I can tell you that in our field, people don't give a damn how good your school's football team was, they care about the quality of education you received.  .



I guess NASA didn't get the memo that Bama is only good for football  because I personally knew an astonaut (recently deceased) who was the commander of several Space Shutlle missions. My kids each have patches from various missions that were flown in space on various shuttle flights and I was invited to be VIP at several launches (never made it but my parents did twice).

He graduated from Alabama. I guess his education stacked up somehow huh? How much higher could he have gone if only he had obtained a degree from MIT? By the way how many space shuttles have you and your husband piloted? Roll Tide Roll!!!!!!!!


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## CapriciousC (Jul 27, 2011)

tombo said:


> I guess NASA didn't get the memo that Bama is only good for football  because I personally knew an astonaut (recently deceased) who was the commander of several Space Shutlle missions. My kids each have patches from various missions that were flown in space on various shuttle flights and I was invited to be VIP at several launches (never made it but my parents did twice).
> 
> He graduated from Alabama. I guess his education stacked up somehow huh? How much higher could he have gone if only he had obtained a degree from MIT? By the way how many space shuttles have you and your husband piloted? Roll Tide Roll!!!!!!!!



Really?  I'm going to step away at this point, because this entire exchange is childish.


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## tombo (Jul 27, 2011)

CapriciousC said:


> I'm not being a hater, and I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone.



You said SEC schools are not respected and back it up with nothing but your opinion. I show national rankings to refute your feelings with facts. I personally do not like to have my alma mater and my degree maligned. You make such statements somehow assuming others would not be offended? Really? You actually didn't think that branding all southern Universities (with the exception of Vanderbilt) as Universities that garner no respect outside of the south would be offensive? Perhaps a common sense curriculum should be added to the math reqirements at MIT.

I must from your assertions assume that if I say MIT was only ranked 7th out of the Ivy League Schools and not nearly as well respected respected as Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton, etc that you wouldn't take offense or respond to defend you school either.  




CapriciousC said:


> I went to MIT.  We were certainly not known for athletics, but the school doesn't suffer in terms of alumni involvement and/or financial contributions, by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> I'm glad that you're happy with your alma mater, as I am with mine.  .



I go to my campus 6 or 7 times a year to tailgate and hang out with friends prior to and after our home football games. It is a huge social event and very exciting. I get depressed in January after the last college game ends and excited in August as the upcoming season approaches. To be honest if not for football I might not step foot on our campus ever again or send a dollar in donations.

Many wealthy alumni from MIT donate to MIT for a tax write off. I assume most MIT grads do not return unless it is to speak or receive an award for their donations. Do you go back to MIT every year and if so why?  Just curious what the draw would be. Fencing? Rowing? The math team?


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## Elan (Jul 27, 2011)

CapriciousC said:


> I would, however, add the caution that the big football schools in the south tend to not be as well regarded academically outside of the south.  Here in Georgia people tend to think you can't do much better than UGA or Georgia Tech - in New York, Boston, Chicago, etc. the attitude is not the same.



  Given that most folks east of the Mississippi still regard the area west of the Mississippi as a vast, unexplored wilderness ,  I'm not sure regional biases are all that relevant.  

  There are highly rated and poorly rated schools all over the country.  More importantly, regardless of a school's academic reputation, one's success in their chosen field is far more dependent on their own motivation/ability than the name of the institution on their diploma.  As was mentioned earlier, the only impact of ones school's reputation _might_ be in landing a first job.  Beyond that, one's accomplishments _should_ speak far louder than their educational background.


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## NWL (Jul 27, 2011)

Given the tone of some of the more recent responses, I think I know where the OP will not be taking her son for school visits.   

Cheers!


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 27, 2011)

tombo said:


> ... I must from your assertions assume that if I say MIT was only ranked 7th out of the Ivy League Schools and not nearly as well respected respected as Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton, etc that you wouldn't take offense or respond to defend you school either.
> .



*MIT is NOT an Ivy League school  *.... nor is Stanford an Ivy School.

U of Penn
Princeton
Brown
Columbia
Cornell
Dartmouth
Harvard
Yale

are the Ivy League schools.


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## pranas (Jul 27, 2011)

ampaholic said:


> Pitt is a good school as is CM - I think the intended major is the trump card.
> 
> If your child wants to go into medicine or medical research I would consider The University of Pennsylvania as it is very highly rated in that area.
> 
> ...



University of Pennsylvania is not cheap.  It is private ivy league campus just like Harvard.


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## tombo (Jul 27, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> *MIT is NOT an Ivy League school  *.... nor is Stanford an Ivy School.
> 
> U of Penn
> Princeton
> ...



I was wrong and restate the facts correctly.  MIT charges outrageous tuition like the Ivy League schools charge, they feel that they are better than everyone else like Ivy League graduates tend to feel, yet they are not actually an Ivy league school. I now understand everything much better. MIT grads are simply Ivy League wannabes who are jealous of the real Ivy League grads. Thanks for the clarification. I of course do not mean to offend anyone......


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 27, 2011)

tombo said:


> MIT charges outrageous tuition like the Ivy League schools charge, they feel that they are better than everyone else like Ivy League graduates tend to feel, yet they are not actually an Ivy league school. I now understand everything much better. MIT grads are simply Ivy League wannabes who are jealous of the real Ivy League grads...



My brother was accepted at both MIT and Princeton, along with everywheres else he applied. He went to and graduated from Princeton; goes to the reunion and marches with his class in the P-parade just about every year at the end of May. He travels from Nebraska and usually bunks at my house.

A very good HS friend did go to MIT. They really have not spoken since they went off to their colleges.


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## tombo (Jul 27, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> My brother was accepted at both MIT and Princeton, along with everywheres else he applied. He went to and graduated from Princeton; goes to the reunion and marches with his class in the P-parade just about every year at the end of May. He travels from Nebraska and usually bunks at my house.
> 
> A very good HS friend did go to MIT. They really have not spoken since they went off to their colleges.



Perhaps there are more sinister reasons why they are no longer friends. There might be secret esoteric Ivy League rules forbidding your brother from being friends with non Ivy League commoners both during college and after graduation.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 27, 2011)

Tombo,
My Princeton graduated brother wanted to go very badly to my little old Southern undergraduate university's School of Law - rated nationally as a top tier trial school. He applied and was NOT accepted. It was his first choice. He attended Nebraska instead and watches more of the games than he gets into from the parking lot.

I asked if he referenced me and my graduation year from my "finishing school" (per his 1st wife's and fellow Princeton alumni nickname) on his application? Why would that have matter? he asked.  I reminded him that the South still did not like Yankee carpetbaggers and it would have shown a connection to the school.

I know the Ivy League school's names because of his ex-wife's snobby attitude.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 27, 2011)

Ellen, I agree with all the others who say that the most important thing for you and Zac to be thinking about now is, how do you feel when you step onto a campus for the first time?  Don't discount your gut feelings, and don't pressure Zac into considering any school which gives him an immediate negative vibe.

I think it's completely ridiculous how some guidance counselors are advising students to apply to eight, ten, twelve schools to keep their options open.  Applications are expensive!  It's much better to get out there early like you're doing and narrow your focus prior to the application process to five schools - two local and two away that offer either the major that Zac has chosen or a varied curriculum that will allow him to declare a major midway through sophomore year or later.  Make the fifth a safety if the other four are reaches, or a reach if the others are safeties.  (I'm risk-aversive so would go with four safeties and a reach.)

I also agree with the others who caution against financing a private school education through student loans.  I think it's doable for a graduate to come out with $40K at the most, preferably $20K or less, in loans and then use that debt as a way to build their credit when they first enter the work force.  Anything more than that and they run the risk of financial difficulties that keep them living with Mom and Dad beyond the point where they should be - a year or two at home to give them an opportunity to pay down loans and save to move out is okay. 

As far as college sports and where they should place in the list of What's Most Important To Consider, IMO they don't even make the list unless you're a player who can take advantage of the ridiculousness that funnels money to athletic scholarships.  Sports fans can find ways to feed their habits in any number of ways on campus or off if their college doesn't have a D1 program, and I say that as a sports junkie who goes to games, reads the Sports pages first and listens to Sports TalkRadio all day.  If Zac isn't an athletic candidate but wants to be a fan, he'll be able to go to games on whichever campus he chooses without getting all caught up in the "whose is bigger" College Sports juggernaut.


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## CapriciousC (Jul 27, 2011)

tombo said:


> I was wrong and restate the facts correctly.  MIT charges outrageous tuition like the Ivy League schools charge, they feel that they are better than everyone else like Ivy League graduates tend to feel, yet they are not actually an Ivy league school. I now understand everything much better. MIT grads are simply Ivy League wannabes who are jealous of the real Ivy League grads. Thanks for the clarification. I of course do not mean to offend anyone......



For the record, I was accepted at both Princeton and Cornell, but chose MIT.  In answer to your questions, I've never piloted the space shuttle, and I go back to MIT at least twice a year, either to recruit students for my employer or to present at academic conferences/events.  I would not have been happy attending your alma mater, and you would not have been happy attending mine.  To each their own.  

Look, I'm not out to make enemies, but you seem predisposed to take offense.  I stated my opinion, based on my experience teaching university, working in industry, and being on the editorial board of peer-reviewed journals in my field.  Also for the record, I never stated that I believe your alma mater (or any other SEC school) to be substandard, I relayed that others believe that to be true.


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## tombo (Jul 27, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> I reminded him that the South still did not like Yankee carpetbaggers and it would have shown a connection to the school.



We don't dislike all northerners. We dislike the northerners who feel that they are smarter than us. 

We don't dislike all northerners. We dislike northerners who tell us how much better it is up north.

We don't dislike all northerners. We just dislike those who talk down to us.

We don't dislike all northerners. We just dislike the northerners who come down here and want us to do it the way they do it up north. They forget the old saying When in Rome...

The difference in a "Yankee" and a "damn yankee" is that a "yankee" comes down south to visit talking about how backward the south is, how poor the southerners are, how uneducated, citing our lack of culture in the south, bemoaning the lack of the arts. etc, etc, etc . A "Yankee" eventually goes home, A "DAMN YANKEE " STAYS!!!!


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 27, 2011)

:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:


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## Conan (Jul 27, 2011)

tombo said:


> MIT grads are simply Ivy League wannabes who are jealous of the real Ivy League grads. Thanks for the clarification. I of course do not mean to offend anyone......


 
That's just silly. MIT certainly isn't everybody's cup of tea, but give it credit (with Caltech) for hardcore science, math and engineering.

If you were an Ivy League wannabe, would you be happy with the regime described below? ["pset" stands for "problem set" which is the standard MIT homework assignment]


> *Academics:*
> 1) Work on psets with friends, both weaker or stronger in the subject than you are. Either way, you'll benefit from further discussion and peer teaching
> 2) However, spend some time trying psets on your own before working with friends, going for office hours, etc. It'll force you to think through the questions yourself first
> 3) Always start on all your work early. That way, you make sure you do the pset well, and don't have to pull all-nighters.
> ...


 
By way of example, here are the Problem Sets for Course 7.014, Introductory Biology, from 2007. 
http://mit.edu/7.01x/7.014/ps_exams.html

Or you could work through one of these online courses:
http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/most-visited-courses/


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## SueDonJ (Jul 27, 2011)

tombo said:


> We don't dislike all northerners. We dislike the northerners who feel that they are smarter than us.
> 
> We don't dislike all northerners. We dislike northerners who tell us how much better it is up north.
> 
> ...



We northerners don't dislike all southerners.  We just dislike the ones who refer to all of us as Yankees, when everybody knows the Yankees are a particular AL East cross to bear.


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## tombo (Jul 27, 2011)

CapriciousC said:


> For the record, I was accepted at both Princeton and Cornell, but chose MIT.  In answer to your questions, I've never piloted the space shuttle, and I go back to MIT at least twice a year, either to recruit students for my employer or to present at academic conferences/events.  I would not have been happy attending your alma mater, and you would not have been happy attending mine.  To each their own.
> 
> Look, I'm not out to make enemies, but you seem predisposed to take offense.  I stated my opinion, based on my experience teaching university, working in industry, and being on the editorial board of peer-reviewed journals in my field.  Also for the record, I never stated that I believe your alma mater (or any other SEC school) to be substandard, I relayed that others believe that to be true.



Here is what you said. You said that the big football schools in the south are not regarded well academically outside of the south. That is sooo elitist. I am not pre-disposed to take offense, that is a blatently offensive statement covering a dozen universities that are highly ranked nationwide including my alma mater.  You could have simply stated some great things about MIT like we stated about our schools. You instead had to warn others against the SEC schools which you have never attended. BTW the only negative stated about the top private schools prior to you maligning all SEC schools was the cost to attend.


CapriciousC said:


> I would, however, add the caution that the big football schools in the south tend to not be as well regarded academically outside of the south.  Here in Georgia people tend to think you can't do much better than UGA or Georgia Tech - in New York, Boston, Chicago, etc. the attitude is not the same.




You live in the south, you work in the south, yet you still feel the New york, Boston, Chicago attitude is correct. You did not say after living down south I have found the schools to be equal to others, I have changed my opinion and embrace them, I love my neighbors and co-workers and feel they are as educated and talented as any anywhere. Nope when we said look at the SEC you said look elsewhere for a respected education. Read my above post 58 because you madam are not a "Yankee", according to my definition you are a "damn Yankee". The interstate that brought you to Georgia also has north bound lanes. Map quest can get you back to the promised land if you can't remember which road heads north. In fact  if you tell your southern neighbors how little you and your MIT alumni think of their  southern degrees I bet they will help you pack.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 27, 2011)

CapriciousC said:


> I'm not being a hater, and I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone.  As you can see, I live in Georgia.  However, I've lived a lot of other places before I lived here (including Europe).  Your initial comment quoted above is correct - people assume that academic institutions in the southern US are substandard.  Whether that assumption is right or wrong is somewhat irrelevant - it IS the assumption of a lot of people.  I just think it's something to factor in when considering a university.  When it comes time for our daughter to choose a school, my husband and I have every intention of encouraging her to look outside of the southeast, simply because of the above-mentioned prejudices/assumptions about schools in the south.  Whatever US News says, people are going to believe what they're going to believe.
> 
> My husband attended (and played football for) the University of Southern California.  He is the first to admit that it's a great football school, but not necessarily the best academic school for all given majors.  We both work in aerospace, and I can tell you that in our field, people don't give a damn how good your school's football team was, they care about the quality of education you received.  However well the Bulldogs may be doing, a Georgia Tech grad is going to be better respected in our field because their engineering program is superior.
> 
> ...



Hey, USC has the best of both worlds.  Great Sports Programs.  Great Engineering Program (especially graduate).  Top 25 National University and rising.  Fantastic weather.


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## Serina (Jul 27, 2011)

As the parent of a DS that hopes to play ball in college and beyond, I feel it's in his best interest to remind him that he is a STUDENT athlete...with the emphasis on student.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 27, 2011)

CapriciousC said:


> As an MIT grad, I agree with this.  It's been 20 years since I finished my undergrad there, and it still carries a cache that hasn't worn off.
> 
> Seriously, though - I agree to look at what your son wants to major in, and also what he wants to do with that degree when he finishes.  Is he interested in grad school?  Does he want to work in the private sector or academia?  Does he want to stay in the local area or have the ability to move around the country (and potentially the world) and have people recognize the name of the school he attended?
> 
> ...



My son has interest in MIT and he has a chance of getting in.  We will be visiting the University next month.  My biggest fear of MIT is that it is so far away with harsh winters and it has a terrible reputation for suicide attempts.  Is that something to be concerned about?  Or, is the concern overblown?


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## heathpack (Jul 27, 2011)

Aw, shucks Tombo, now you are making Southerners seem a little ungracious, which is absolutely incorrect.

As I said before, I grew up in NY.  I though my world was big because I was in the NYC metro area, but in reality my world perspective was quite small, I was young and didn't know much.

The south was not a place on my radar to go to college, but I got a full academic scholarship to University of NC, so thats where I went.  It was an awesome education and a totally transformative experience, gave me a much better understanding of the American culture that I was a part of.

When it was time to go to veterinary school, I turned down Ivy League Cornell in favor of NC State (both were top 5 vet schools) because NC State was 1/4 the tution cost.

Then I spend 4 more years in post graduate training, Auburn and University of Georgia.

Then when it came time to join the faculty somewhere, I accepted my lowest paid option, NC State instead of better financial offers at Michigan State, University of Missouri and Texas A&M.

I totally love North Carolina, it is more my home now than NY is.  The quality of the education in the South is excellent, and I did not recognize this when I was a New Yorker.  In my field, the most important thing is where I went to vet school, it is a very small world and everyone knows I got a cream of the crop education at NC State.

However, what Capricious says is true.  If you wanted to become a Wall Street type, you'd be better off going to a Northeast Ivy League.  If you want to go to film school, you are probably better off going to UCLA.  If you want to become a pastry chef, consider the Sorbonne.  There are still important regional differences based on ultimate career.

If you want to get a great education that is a great value, the University of NC should be on your list IMO.

S


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## Conan (Jul 27, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> My son has interest in MIT and he has a chance of getting in. We will be visiting the University next month. My biggest fear of MIT is that it is so far away with harsh winters and it has a terrible reputation for suicide attempts. Is that something to be concerned about? Or, is the concern overblown?


 
Weather shouldn't be a problem - - the campus is compact and connected, and Cambridge/Boston has extensive bus and MTA (subway) lines. 

I haven't seen statistics on suicide but I wouldn't choose for or against a school on that. Suicide is almost always a product of depression and/or drug issues (usually prescription drugs); your child isn't going to be a different person than they are now wherever they go.

MIT is no party school. The usual description of study at MIT is that it's like trying to drink from a firehose. I would only recommend MIT to somebody who actually enjoys hands-on tech. A typical MIT student, when they were in high school, enjoyed some hands-on math or science work along the lines of maybe learning and applying an advanced computer language, or designing/building their own robot, or tube amplifier, or medical device, etc., etc., etc.


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## glypnirsgirl (Jul 27, 2011)

And this thread really illustrates the importance of a good fit. 

My bonus daughter attended and graduated from UVA law school. 

She toured, but did not apply for Yale. The campus was too derelict. A bad neighborhood, somewhat isolated.

She toured, applied for Harvard, and was accepted. She chose not to go because of the cut-throat atmosphere at the law school. (Ian paid that application fee and he kept the acceptance letter).

She found UVA to be collegial and sufficiently elite (despite that it is in the South). She is now a "high stakes corporate litigator*." We are proud of her. 

And, for her, she chose well. Laura is very sociable. She is extremely intelligent. She had been participating in mock trial since she was in high school. She went to MacAlester College in Minneapolis because it has a highly regarded mock trial team. She won 6 all american mock trial awards in undergraduate school. So, her small liberal arts college was the perfect place for her. And she still got into very prestigious law schools because she did so well in undergrad.

I think that those students that have laser like focus on what they want to accomplish need to choose towards their ultimate goal. Those students that are still uncertain, need to go someplace that will give them great building blocks for whatever they may ultimately settle upon. 

I was a dilettante. I had no idea what I wanted to do, but I knew some of the things that I did not want to do: engineering, music, art, theatre, biology, English, history, political science and psychology. 

Possibilities for me: architecture, chemistry, math, accounting, finance, sociology, economics. By the time that I graduated, I knew that what I wanted to be was a financial analyst. I wanted to work on a MBA in finance. 

So, even if your son does not know what he wants to do, he may know what he does NOT want to do. 

He may have a feel for whether or not he needs a campus with a well integrated social life. Or he may want a stimulating academic environment. Or a football team or basketball team to root for.

He may want to get lost in the enormity of a state school. If he has interests that are uncommon, he may need not only the enormity, but the diversity, of a large campus. 

Or he may want his professors to be able to recognize him and say, "Hey, I missed you in class today." Or do what one of my economics professors did to me and call me at my boyfriend's apartment because i did not make a perfect score on one of my tests (for 5 semesters, I had not missed even one question) -- he called to tell me to get back to the dorm and study. But that feeling of being cared about was critical to my success in school. I knew that I was being carefully watched - the benefit of having an average class size of less than 20 students - and I didn't want to let anyone down. 

I hope you have fun with this. College touring can be a blast. And it is a great bonding experience. Good luck!

elaine


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## tombo (Jul 27, 2011)

Heathpack I am not ungracious, I am mad. To disparage an entire region of the US is uncalled for. If she had simply praised her school and pointed out it's advantages there would have been no problem. 

To tell others to look elswhere unless they are going to work in the south after graduation is ridiculous. How about if we said she couldn't get hired in the south with a degree from the north east and her husband couldn't get hired in the southeast with a degree from the west coast because southerners only value SEC degrees? How about disparaging USC as a football school implying her husband has a sub par education and probably should not be respected in the aerospace industry? Well they both work in the south without graduating from here so we must be more gracious and willing to accept degrees from other regions than they are. 

You very eloquently pointed to reasons why you went where you did and why you felt it was a good deal. If everyone would point out the reasons they like their schools rather than demeaning other schools, this would be a more gracious place. If my family, my school, or my religion are disparaged I will defend them because I am proud of all of them. To let the comments go without responding is not in my nature.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 27, 2011)

tombo said:


> Look at the top 25 football rankings. Like Coach Bryant said: it is great to have a distinguished math department but you can never get the alumni to rally around the math team (paraphrased).
> 
> You mention Penn State. We beat them last year and will play at Penn State this year. If we win 2 in a row you have to rule Penn State out and choose Bama.
> 
> ...



You are bragging about being number 34 in the ranking of Public Universities?  LOL.  It's actual ranking is number 79 in national Universities.  

Saying SEC schools (aside from Vanderbilt) are anywhere close to any of the top 20 Private Universities in the Country is like saying Alabama is close to San Jose State in football.  It just isn't true no matter how you spin it.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 27, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> My son has interest in MIT and he has a chance of getting in.  We will be visiting the University next month.  My biggest fear of MIT is that it is so far away with harsh winters and it has a terrible reputation for suicide attempts.  Is that something to be concerned about?  Or, is the concern overblown?



I think both are something to be concerned about, sure.  The Boston Globe has had a few very-well-researched articles about MIT's higher suicide rate and generally the student population does acknowledge that what's expected of them does cause high stress levels, and that the competition among students is very high.  When you consider that MIT has a large number of students who were probably standouts in their high schools, it stands to reason that for most of them it may be the first experience they'll have interacting with others who are very similar to them.  It must be harder to cope when you're used to being the best and you become only the average.  But, I think it's the graduate program more than the undergrad which suffers the distinctive suicide rate.  At any rate, if I were you I would be looking for MIT to at least address the issue during an orientation visit.  If it's not on the official program, I would ask questions about it and worry if there seems to be an attitude of belittling your concern.

But you also bring up distance and I think that's a major concern with any college freshman.  During one of the college prep assemblies at our high school the counselor told the students to consider honestly how many times they would want to be coming home for a visit and/or how prone they may be to bouts of homesickness.  He gave the perfect scenario - Thanksgiving weekend is a HUGE homecoming deal for college freshmen.  He asked them, "if your parents cannot afford or are not willing to fly you home anytime other than the winter break, how upset are you going to be when you're on campus with only a few others during Thanksgiving and you know that most of your old crowd are living it up back home at the Homecoming Game and all the meet-and-greets that are scheduled that weekend?"  Our Eileen thought that she wanted to go far away to school but that question brought her back around.  When we said that as far as we were concerned she could go fifteen minutes down Route 24 to Stonehill with her brother and still be out of our reach, her decision switched to consider local schools.  (She ultimately chose UMass Amherst thinking that she'd do two years there to determine her major and finish somewhere else, but in the end she loved it there, thrived, and proudly graduated in four years.  She's now doing an online grad program and will earn her master's next February.   )


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## LisaH (Jul 27, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> Saying SEC schools (aside from Vanderbilt) are anywhere close to any of the top 20 Private Universities in the Country is like saying Alabama is close to San Jose State in football.  It just isn't true no matter how you spin it.



Hay be nice here. I live near San Jose (although I don't even know there is a football team at SJSU)...


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 27, 2011)

LisaH said:


> Hay be nice here. I live near San Jose (although I don't even know there is a football team at SJSU)...



Alabama is one of the best football programs in the history of college football.  San Jose State doesn't have such history in football.  I just used an analogy that would resonate with Tombo. 

As I said before, it doesn't matter where you go.  The only thing that matters is if the place inspires you to do your best.  That's really all that matters.  Going to a great football or sports school definitely inspires passion.

I went to USC for undergrad.  Columbia for graduate school.  And Stanford for executive management.  Despite the high rankings of the other schools, I will always be a Trojan first.  I am who I am today in large part because of who I became when I was there.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 27, 2011)

heathpack said:


> Aw, shucks Tombo, now you are making Southerners seem a little ungracious, which is absolutely incorrect.
> 
> As I said before, I grew up in NY.  I though my world was big because I was in the NYC metro area, but in reality my world perspective was quite small, I was young and didn't know much.
> 
> ...



I really like your post. However, USC is the place to go to Film school.  LOL.


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## Luanne (Jul 27, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> I really like your post. However, USC is the place to go to Film school.  LOL.



Tell that to those who went to UCLA.


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## glypnirsgirl (Jul 27, 2011)

I am not surprised at the high suicide rate at MIT. I think that it must be shocking to go from being the smartest person among your peers to being solidly average. 

I went to look at standard IQ distributions. A person with an IQ of 145 on the Stanford Binet scale is the smartest out of 406 people on a normal distribution. I figure public high schools have a pretty normal distribution. If the graduating high school class size is 406, the 145 IQ is likely to be the smartest person there. 

However, if 145 goes off to a top tier college, what was once rare, is now not only not rare, it is simply average. And, 145 will get a shock because there are likely to be people that are substantially smarter than he is. 

Some of the people that find themselves in highly competitive environments are many times simply unprepared for the competition. There is an advantage in going to one of the elite prep schools, because that same 145 is going to be challenged on a regular basis. So, going into a competitive college is not going to be nearly the shock.

To keep things in perspective, I frequently tell my bonus son who has a high IQ that although he is smarter than the average person, in the metroplex alone, there are about 15,000 other people who are at least as smart as  he is. And alot of the people are going to be smarter. 

I thought that perhaps the bleak weather influenced suicides there also. But I found that the suicide rate in Massachusetts is one of the lowest in the country. 47th out of 51 (they included District of Columbia which is 51st).

elaine


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## SueDonJ (Jul 27, 2011)

The gist I got from the various articles in the Globe was that MIT was solidly focused only on academics, and behind the curve for a very long time on all the mental health aspects of young brilliant adults leaving the "safety" of being big fish in a small pond situations.  They simply did not acknowledge that the administration must make mental health concerns equal to academic concerns.  I understand that their Mental Health Services have come a long way since the high suicide rate was publicized and/or the stigma of it was removed.  They've also taken steps to more positively incorporate the inherent competition level among students - on a simple level by encouraging non-academic silliness such as intra-dorm frisbee tournaments and similar things, and on a complex level by offering services similar to that offered by Sports Psychologists in situations when the "win at any cost" mentality threatens to become dangerous.

If I was Boca I'd be asking questions to find out if these reactionary measures that have been reported to be happening, actually are.  At the very least I'd find out how many qualified mental health counselors are available to the students, and if the on-campus Health Services make it easy for the students to ask for help and get it without being branded in any way.


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## e.bram (Jul 27, 2011)

tombo: 
Southerners(Rebels) sure have a thin skin.


Chicago is not in Northeast and we usually lump it in with the South.


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## e.bram (Jul 27, 2011)

Vacationhopeful:
Is that your order of Ivy schools?(certainly not alphabetical)


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 27, 2011)

e.bram said:


> Vacationhopeful:
> Is that your order of Ivy schools?(certainly not alphabetical)



editted ....


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## SueDonJ (Jul 27, 2011)

You know, one concern I would have if I had a high schooler going off to college these days, is the effect that growing up in this "connected 24/7" world has had on them.  Back when we were living in dorms it meant that you had a roommate, you both had a bed and a desk in your room, maybe a microwave and a telephone ... and there was a common room on every floor where you socialized or had group study sessions.  You did your research in the library and somebody made sure that the setting was conducive to success.

I'm watching my nieces and nephews go off to school now and they bring every creature comfort under the sun with them.  Common rooms are few and far between because they all have fridges, microwaves, tv's and computers in their rooms.  Their cell phones may as well be surgically attached to them because there's no way that they'll go anywhere without them, and heaven forbid a professor try to tell them that their phones have no place in the classroom.

These kids already do more than half their socializing through electronics while high schoolers.  On campus they can literally go for weeks on end without having any extended social contact with the people who actually live with them.  That cannot be good.  But if you say that to them, they'll tell you that the social interaction they're getting with their friends through texting, FaceBook, Skype, etc... is a perfectly good substitute for the interaction we used to do in the Common Rooms.  Is it?

As far as academics, their computers can open the world to them.  But if they're only putting half their computer time into academics and the other half into electronic socializing, and nobody is in the immediate vicinity to encourage academic success, how much will they attain?

I think college is probably a more lonely world for them than it was for us, and that's not a good thing.


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## tombo (Jul 27, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> You are bragging about being number 34 in the ranking of Public Universities?  LOL.  It's actual ranking is number 79 in national Universities.
> 
> Saying SEC schools (aside from Vanderbilt) are anywhere close to any of the top 20 Private Universities in the Country is like saying Alabama is close to San Jose State in football.  It just isn't true no matter how you spin it.



The University of Alabama is ranked 34th among public national universities and 79th among all universities, both public and private, according to U.S. News and World Report’s annual rankings for 2011. The ranking places UA in the top 6 percent of the 1,400 colleges and universities surveyed by U.S. News. There are approximately 2,700 four-year public and private colleges and universities in the country. UA has been ranked among the top 50 public universities in the nation for the last 10 years.

To be in the top 6% of all universities in the US academically and top 5% athletically is something I am absolutelly proud of. 2621 Universities both public and private are ranked below us. 94% of the Universities in the US wish they were ranked as well as we are academically and few come close to us in athletics. Win, win. 

Of course we do not rank with the top 20 PRIVATE schools, but we cost about 10 times less. You can get a top 6% education at Bama for about $30,000 tutition for 4 years. That is affordable for many families. $240,000 plus for a top private college is not. 

Is Yale or Harvard worth more than Bama. For many degrees and the prestige that answer is yes. Is the 4 year Ivy League degree worth $200,000 more?  Not to me.


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## Zac495 (Jul 27, 2011)

Wow  - we just got home and I finished reading all the responses. 
Well as far as football, it doesn't matter to Zac because he's not a sports guy. As a matter of fact, one thing he liked about CM was the tour guide explained they are a tier 3 (at best ) sports place -they play lousy intermurals- Zac felt he could fit in and actually play for fun.

Boca and SueJ - some of your comments really hit home. Boca - Zac doesn't really want to be so far away that he can't visit if he feels like it. He's not the type to get homesick, but still. Sue, yeah - we're trying to go with gut feelings.

We have so much more looking to do - and I really appreciate everyone's input. I forget who suggested finding someone in the field to talk to - that was a great idea. Thank you.


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## heathpack (Jul 27, 2011)

glypnirsgirl said:


> And this thread really illustrates the importance of a good fit.
> 
> My bonus daughter attended and graduated from UVA law school.
> 
> ...



Hahaha.  For some reason, my mother very much wanted me to go to UVA.  I hated it during my tour- my student tour guide was wearing a pleated skirt, blue blazer with gold emblem, pearl necklace and white gloves in 1988!  I felt there was no way in a million years I would ever fit in there, told my Mom I did not want to even finish the tour.  She made be stick it out to be polite, but then I was out of there and never applied.  I bet I would have liked it just fine, but my first impresion was No WAY am I going to this school! 

H


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## LisaH (Jul 27, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> I really like your post. However, USC is the place to go to Film school.  LOL.





Luanne said:


> Tell that to those who went to UCLA.



Agree with you both...I have a son who really wants to do film. He will be at UCSD this fall as a visual arts/media major and he is already thinking about transferring to either UCLA or USC in a couple of years...

Baca, I knew what you meant about Alabama and SJSD's football teams...I was just teasing you... 

Ellen, so sorry we hijacked your thread about college. After sending two kids to college in recent years, all I can say are:

1. It's not too early to start college visits before starting 11th grade

2. College admission these days are truly a crap-shoot. It's not totally based on the GPA and/or SAT scores, and extracurricular activities may or may not help. Thus, it is important to apply to as many schools that your kid is interested in attending as you could reasonably afford. 

3. Whatever your kids want to major now, more often than not they will change  majors during college. Thus, it is also important to figure out which school is easier to do so.

Good luck! One more thing, I find collegeconfidential.com to be quite helpful, but be forewarned that it could be just as addictive as TUG.


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## VivianLynne (Jul 27, 2011)

Wasn't there a book years ago titled "I learned all I needed to know in kindergarten?"  

It should have been that simple.


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## NWL (Jul 27, 2011)

SueDonJ said:


> Back when we were living in dorms it meant that you had a roommate, you both had a bed and a desk in your room, maybe a microwave and a telephone ...



Wow, you had a microwave?!  I'm feeling old!   

Although I graduated from Penn State (35,000 students at the time), I spent my first 2 years at Univ. of Richmond (3,500 students at the time).  By the time I got to PSU, I really appreciated the small class size of UofR.  There was no getting lost in the crowd, and your Professors knew your name and had the time, and inclination, to give you extra help.  

One of my basic requirement classes at Penn State had 1,000 students in it.  Not fun if you're a Freshman.

Cheers!


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## VivianLynne (Jul 27, 2011)

SueDonJ said:


> ..  Back when we were living in dorms it meant that you had a roommate, you both had a bed and a desk in your room, maybe a microwave and a telephone ... and there was a common room on every floor where you socialized or had group study sessions...



I had NO microwave or telephone in the room (and no refrigerator anywheres). A internal college extension phone was on the landing between the 2nd & 3rd floor (if anyone bother to answer it). The common room (with a TV) was called the dorm's lobby on the first floor. There was 2 outlets in the room I shared with another girl. A bath tug (with NO shower) in a jack & jill bathroom. Our room & dorm was also shared with palmento bugs - very large ones which could wake you when they scamper across the hardwood floors. 

After 125 years, this week the college tore down my dorm.   It was a major historic building - on the national register - one of the oldest buildings at the oldest college (means the FIRST college) in all of Florida. It is a sad week.


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## Zac495 (Jul 27, 2011)

LisaH said:


> Agree with you both...I have a son who really wants to do film. He will be at UCSD this fall as a visual arts/media major and he is already thinking about transferring to either UCLA or USC in a couple of years...
> 
> Baca, I knew what you meant about Alabama and SJSD's football teams...I was just teasing you...
> 
> ...



haha - no problem with the hijacking! Glad we aren't nuts starting so early - and I realize his career desire may change. Thanks for the forum!!!


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## easyrider (Jul 27, 2011)

Pick 3 or more schools and write them down on a piece of paper. Then ask the student to pick a number between 9 and 21.

Now have the student place their index finger on the first school they wrote down and alternate choices by saying...........

Ennie, Meanie Miney, Moe, This is where I want to go. My mother told me to pick the very best one. Now use the chosen number between 9 - 21 to count the schools down.

 BINGO


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## pjrose (Jul 27, 2011)

I'm a strong proponent of liberal arts colleges or small universities.  I don't like the way students often come in with a major now; how on earth does a 17 or 18 year old already know what s/he wants to do?  I sure didn't.   I wouldn't want to send my kids to a college where they were locked into a major from day one; I'd like them to take a variety of courses for the first few years and see what they become interested in.  

I also hate how much college is now linked to jobs; I'm thinking of all the articles about "which college (or major) is worth more."  Worth more in what way?  Salaries seem to be about all those articles focus on.

Ivy League schools are great for the real achievers, but all those top-of-the-class students are going to find themselves average.  A problem with some Ivy League schools is the number of TAs who are teaching undergrads.  I did my PhD at Cornell, simultaneously taking a lot of undergrad math courses (math was not my primary field), and many of the math courses were taught by TAs who really weren't so good at teaching.  For grad school, Ivy is great, because you can do research with some of the top in the field, but you're not talking grad school yet.

I like the Community College for two years and then transfer route, except that the instructors in CCs are pretty pot luck.  You can get really good profs who may be moonlighting or retired from elsewhere, or you can get those who can't get a job anywhere else. Nonetheless, it's a good way to experience a variety of the basic courses without the expense.

I prefer the smaller schools because of smaller classes and more student/faculty interaction. When I taught at a small liberal arts college my door was always often, and it often was a zoo in there with students asking questions, arguing, etc.  I loved it.  You can get that at smaller state universities (think Millersville or Ship) but not at a huge school.  On the other hand huge schools have opportunities that can't be found elsewhere.

I guess it mostly depends on what he wants to do - and I don't necessarily mean for a job.  What is he, and what is the family, looking for? Career Prep? Does he know what he wants to do (as DD has known since probably 7th grade)?  Is he looking for the college experience? sports? music? Is he super academic? super motivated? unsure but interested in finding out? unsure about whether to go at all?  likely to go "woo hoo, no parents, it's party time!"?  How close to home? I wanted to go away, while my parents thought it'd be great if I came home on weekends.  (I won that one.) You've got some awesome choices nearby - Haverford, Temple, etc. 

Also look for "feel" - how comfortable is he on the campus? with the tour? DH almost went to F&M, but had a bad experience on the tour so that was that.


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## pjrose (Jul 27, 2011)

VivianLynne said:


> . .  2 outlets in the room I shared with another girl. *A bath tug* (with NO shower) in a jack & jill bathroom. . . .



Normally I wouldn't pick on a typo, but couldn't resist saying that maybe you've been on TUG too much?  
:hysterical: :hysterical:


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## NWL (Jul 27, 2011)

A couple of more points about Penn State and then I'll shut up.   

1)  as an in-state resident, tuition is very easy on the pocketbook.

2) when I was in the system (I do not know if this is still true, but I think it is), the majority of students who applied were directed toward one of the many smaller 2 year "satellite" campuses located around the state.  Each campus had a specialty and the campus you were directed to was based on your chosen major.  After you completed your 2 years, you transfered to the main campus at State College.  You always had the option of changing your major at any point in time.

Lastly, watch out for the campus in Erie.  My roommate said it was a BIT_H in the winter with the wind wiping in off of the lake.   

Cheers!


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## heathpack (Jul 27, 2011)

I am a little perplexed by the comments about the lack of personal interaction with professors if you go to a big university, that was totally not my experience although I was one of about 20,000 undergrads.

I failed my Romantic Poetry midterm (complicated story), my professor would not let that slide, I was called into her office to explain myself and finally was told she was not going to accept the grade, I'd better ace the final because that was going to be my grade in the course.

I was in a sequence of six HUGE (maybe 200 student) chemistry classes but small labs and abundant access to my professors, really learned chemistry unlike my high school AP chem class of 16 individuals.  If I needed some face time to more fully understand something, one could always schedule time with the professors and they'd be glad to help out.

Was on a number of occasions invited to dinner at professor's houses and two of the first people I called when I returned to NC were old professors from UNC.  Maybe I had a unique experience but I would say that it is not inevitable that students at big universities get lost in the shuffle.  Yes, it was a big place.  But each individual department was not so big.  My worlds were the English, Chinese and Chemistry departments and this were not overwhelmingly large worlds.

H


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## e.bram (Jul 28, 2011)

pjrose:
I had full professors for my math courses at Cornell. I had Prof Israel Herstein(wasted on me)  for Calculus who was a world class mathematician(look up in Wiki)


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## pjrose (Jul 28, 2011)

Heathpack - you're right, even in the 200 person classes students can seek out help and most professors would welcome more student interaction.   I just don't think it's as much a part of the campus climate like it is at small schools.  At the small schools I've been involved with, everyone in the class going out for pizza with the prof, maybe even at the prof's house, was pretty common.  I would always reserve a faculty lounge or some such place for students' oral presentations at the end of the term, with pizza or subs or whatever - paid for by the department or the dean's office in the interest of fostering student/faculty interaction.    Students couldn't be anonymous, and I think got more out of school because of it.  Of course that doesn't work for everyone, but it sure did for me and DH and DS, all of whom were/are undergrads at traditional small liberal arts colleges. I didn't realize that could also be part of the big university experience, but it makes sense that departments are smaller worlds than the entire university. 

e.bram - I also took math classes with some superb faculty at Cornell.   However around half of my undergrad classes were taught by TAs.  I taught as a TA at both Cornell and Univ of NH, and honestly don't think it's quite right for a student and family to be paying tuition and be taught by another student maybe just a few years older than the undergrad.  Helping teach? guest lecture? leading discussion groups? sure - but sole responsibility, no.  Also, in many subjects there's a high proportion of grad students for whom English is not the native language, and that can make it harder for the undergrads. 

Anyway, small college or large university or anything in between, the student and family need to figure out the best fit, and it's likely that the student will get out of it whatever s/he puts into it.  (too many clichés, but it's late)


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 28, 2011)

I remember spring of my senior in high school, looking at my options and fretting about how do I know which is the best choice.  Then a light bulb went off in my brain, and I realized that the biggest impacts in my life were going to come from the people that I met, the relationships that were formed, whether or not I hit it off with a professor in a particular class, etc.  And those issues were matters were largely random; there was no way that I or anyone could ever predict how those factors would play out.

With that I felt a great relief - I knew that no amount of effort could ever lead me to know what was the "right" answer.  What I should simply do is make the best decision based on the information available to me at the time, knowing that the information was actually most important was unknown to me.  The best I could do was make a decision based on the wholly inadequate information available to me, and be content with whatever I decided.

****

Looking back now I fully concur with the sentiment that it's really not that important where you go to school - or even that you finish school. What is most important is what you do with the information and knowledge that you acquire.  And that is a factor that has little to do with what school you select.


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## NWL (Jul 28, 2011)

pjrose said:


> .....Anyway, small college or large university or anything in between, the student and family need to figure out the best fit, and it's likely that the student will get out of it whatever s/he puts into it.  (too many clichés, but it's late)





T_R_Oglodyte said:


> ...Looking back now I fully concur with the sentiment that it's really not that important where you go to school - or even that you finish school. What is most important is what you do with the information and knowledge that you acquire.  And that is a factor that has little to do with what school you select.



Bingo!   

Cheers!


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 28, 2011)

Zac495 said:


> haha - no problem with the hijacking! Glad we aren't nuts starting so early - and I realize his career desire may change. Thanks for the forum!!!



Ellen,

I was worried about my son because he seemed so disinterested in college until well into his Junior year.  Every attempt I made to get him to think about college ended up in a shrug.  Then, all of a sudden, he got really interested.  It was strange how it happened.  It seemed to coincide with the PSAT.  He got a really good score and will likely become a National Merit Finalist.  All of a sudden, he started thinking about where he could go.

Then, we sent him on a college tour during Spring break with about 50 kids in his class.  Then, he got really interested in college.  He has his short list done already.  He has also taken all of his standardized tests.  Now all he has to do is apply.  I was amazed at how fast it all came together.

Jason, my middle son, already knows what he wants to do and where he wants to go.  In summer school, he already went to the college counselling center and printed off all the requirements for admissions.  He is going into 9th grade.  It's amazing how each kid is so different.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 28, 2011)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I remember spring of my senior in high school, looking at my options and fretting about how do I know which is the best choice.  Then a light bulb went off in my brain, and I realized that the biggest impacts in my life were going to come from the people that I met, the relationships that were formed, whether or not I hit it off with a professor in a particular class, etc.  And those issues were matters were largely random; there was no way that I or anyone could ever predict how those factors would play out.
> 
> With that I felt a great relief - I knew that no amount of effort could ever lead me to know what was the "right" answer.  What I should simply do is make the best decision based on the information available to me at the time, knowing that the information was actually most important was unknown to me.  The best I could do was make a decision based on the wholly inadequate information available to me, and be content with whatever I decided.
> 
> ...



yeah, but it helps that you went to Stanford.  My son would kill to go there.


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## suesam (Jul 28, 2011)

Ellen,
I have two sons who picked totally different types of colleges. My oldest is a senior at University of Notre Dame. Expensive, will have debt, and ABSOLUTELY loves it. Feels it is an awesome school and is challenged constantly. Classes are tough and expectations are high. Professors are very hands on. From day one I knew they expected a lot and felt that he was in very good hands. He went knowing no one and within 2 days met his awesome friends. The ND alumni have reached out to him on several occasions offering assistance with an internship he is now participating in and offering to help him with finding a job. It is truly amazing. ALL of his friends are graduating in 4 years or less and he knows no one who dropped out. 

My second son is going to be a freshman at Iowa State. I am not impressed so far..... his registration experience was horrible. He decided to go from undeclared engineering to mechanical engineering during the orientation process and a mechanical engineering adviser would not meet with him because it was lunch time, although that was the time my son was given that he had to register. We were at the first orientation and  many classes were full and he could not get into the learning community classes that he wanted. So far I have been very frustrated at the disinterest I have seen in the staff at a big state university. I am very worried  about his experience. I think the main reason he picked ISU was because he has several friends going there and he felt more comfortable with that. I am trying really hard to remain upbeat because he too is pretty worried and I know that is not going to help his transition. OF the kids I know who are going to ISU I know of no one who is graduating  in 4 years. They will be 4.5 or 5 years. So is it really cheaper?? Also the drop out rate is huge.....

My best advice is to consider whether he wants a big school vs. small. From what I can see those two experiences are totally different. In a year or so I will be much wiser I am sure! 
Good Luck!!

Sue


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## Zac495 (Jul 28, 2011)

I prefer the smaller schools because of smaller classes and more student/faculty interaction. When I taught at a small liberal arts college my door was always often, and it often was a zoo in there with students asking questions, arguing, etc.  I loved it.  You can get that at smaller state universities (think Millersville or Ship) but not at a huge school.  On the other hand huge schools have opportunities that can't be found elsewhere.

I guess it mostly depends on what he wants to do - and I don't necessarily mean for a job.  What is he, and what is the family, looking for? Career Prep? Does he know what he wants to do (as DD has known since probably 7th grade)?  Is he looking for the college experience? sports? music? Is he super academic? super motivated? unsure but interested in finding out? unsure about whether to go at all?  likely to go "woo hoo, no parents, it's party time!"?  How close to home? I wanted to go away, while my parents thought it'd be great if I came home on weekends.  (I won that one.) You've got some awesome choices nearby - Haverford, Temple, etc. 

Also look for "feel" - how comfortable is he on the campus? with the tour? DH almost went to F&M, but had a bad experience on the tour so that was that.[/QUOTE]

He really doesn't want very small. He toured his stepbrother's campus(ESU - East Staudsburg U) and didn't like it. He wants a "step up" though not necessarily as high as CM if he can't get in. A good state school at least. No way will he do community college first.

He wants to go away, but be able to get back - he doesn't want to be  plane ride away, but 5 hour drive is fine.

I worry Penn State may be too big... He loved the tour at Pitt and Carnegie.


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## Zac495 (Jul 28, 2011)

suesam said:


> Ellen,
> I have two sons who picked totally different types of colleges. My oldest is a senior at University of Notre Dame. Expensive, will have debt, and ABSOLUTELY loves it. Feels it is an awesome school and is challenged constantly. Classes are tough and expectations are high. Professors are very hands on. From day one I knew they expected a lot and felt that he was in very good hands. He went knowing no one and within 2 days met his awesome friends. The ND alumni have reached out to him on several occasions offering assistance with an internship he is now participating in and offering to help him with finding a job. It is truly amazing. ALL of his friends are graduating in 4 years or less and he knows no one who dropped out.
> 
> My second son is going to be a freshman at Iowa State. I am not impressed so far..... his registration experience was horrible. He decided to go from undeclared engineering to mechanical engineering during the orientation process and a mechanical engineering adviser would not meet with him because it was lunch time, although that was the time my son was given that he had to register. We were at the first orientation and  many classes were full and he could not get into the learning community classes that he wanted. So far I have been very frustrated at the disinterest I have seen in the staff at a big state university. I am very worried  about his experience. I think the main reason he picked ISU was because he has several friends going there and he felt more comfortable with that. I am trying really hard to remain upbeat because he too is pretty worried and I know that is not going to help his transition. OF the kids I know who are going to ISU I know of no one who is graduating  in 4 years. They will be 4.5 or 5 years. So is it really cheaper?? Also the drop out rate is huge.....
> ...


Good advice. THANK YOU. He's not very good at social interaction with other kids - he tends to hang out with them on his xbox which drives me nuts. I want him somewhere he'll fit in. He's not like my popular daughter. (He's not totally excluded or a misfit - just not popular at all)


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## pianodinosaur (Jul 28, 2011)

Zac495:

I loved the photos of your family taken during your recent trip to Greece. 

Popularity in high school does not equate to popularity in college or at work.  Nor does popularity in high school equate with being a good husband or father.  The vast majority of high school football players do not continue with a college football.  The vast majority of college footbal players do not make it into the NFL. The persistant plodders seem to do OK.


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## tombo (Jul 28, 2011)

I feel that the student has as much to do with the education they receive and the experience they have as the university does. Both of my children  were accepted to some prestigious private southern schools (Vandy, Birmingham Southern, Miss College, etc). I congratulated them on getting accepted to those fine schools as it was hard to do but explained that we could not afford the tutition. I told my children that they could attend any state university they wanted to attend but the only out of state tuition I would pay for was the University of Alabama. I also told them they could stay in college as long as they wanted, but we were only paying for 4 years.

My daughter enrolled at the University of Alabama which has over 20,000 students and knew nobody because all of her friends went to Mississippi schools. She made friends quickly and enjoyed college. She went through rush and got in a top sorority. She stayed in the sorority one year, hated the sorority scene, quit, and became a proud GDI. She graduated in 4 years summa cum laude with honors. 

I think my daugter's heart was still in Mississippi and I think in hindsight she would have preferred to have attended a Mississippi college with her high school friends if she had not been indoctrinated with Bama from birth. She got season football tickets every year and scalped them for profit rather than attending the games. After graduation she went to Mississippi State (on her own dime) and received her MBA. She liked Alabama but always missed her friends at home. She now lives in Mississippi, married a Miss State grad, and opened her business here. She doesn't really keep up with her former Bama classmates at all any more. She liked the University of Alabama and still watches Bama football on TV (and occassioally in person)  but she didn't love it. 

My son went to Bama 3 years later and also had zero friends he knew when he applied. I called some alumni friends and got him rushed by several good fraternities.  He asked if I would be upset if he didn't pledge my fraternity and I said this is your college experience and totally your choice. He pledged the one next door to mine. He had a chemical engineering major with a med school goal He has wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon since he was young and he never changed his career goals. 

My son never missed a game, a party, or an event while he was in school. He tried to go to every away game to see as many stadiums as he could. He was elected a senator at the University and was an officer in his fraternity. We went to Washington DC on a company award trip the summer after his junior year, and he went with us. He knew LOTS of young people in DC he met at Bama. One of his friends worked as a gift opener for President Bush at the White House. She logged in gifts, who they were from (prime minister etc) ,and made sure thank you notes were mailed. It was fun talking to her about the gifts sent from politicians from many countries. He had several pages to Senators and congressmen he knew, people working as clerks for lawyers, etc. His network of friends so far from home was impressive, and he knew them all from meeting them in the University of Alabama political interactions. I said are you considering Law School and/or politics? He said not a chance, I am going to be an Orthopedic Surgeon.

My son graduated summa cum laude in 4 years like my daughter and is currently in The University of Alabama med school (on his own dime too) starting his 3rd year. He has more friends, connections, and memories from his years at Bama than I ever dreamed of having from college. I loved bama as a student and met my wife there. I have great memories and loved it. He loved it more.

My son comes to every home game still and most away games. He married a girl from North Alabama he met in college. He wouldn't trade his 4 years at the University of Alabama for any other college in the world. He is on the waiting list for Bama season football tickets. When we tailgate the number of young men and women who call and stop by our tailgate spot to visit with my son and his wife is pretty incredible. He always goes to his frat house and visits with other alums before the game. His college experience at Bama was everything you could hope for.

Both kids went to the same university. Both excelled academically and graduated in 4 years. One kind of enjoyed it but it might not have been the best college fit for her. The other lived, breathed, and slept Bama. In hindsight I am not sure both of my children should have gone to the University of Alabama, but they chose themselves and it seemed like the right choice for both at the time. 

Good luck on your choice. My main advice is to let your child make the final choice based on Universities you can afford. It is after all the beginning of their adulthood and independence. Right or wrong it should be their decision.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 28, 2011)

Zac495 said:


> Good advice. THANK YOU. He's not very good at social interaction with other kids - he tends to hang out with them on his xbox which drives me nuts. I want him somewhere he'll fit in. He's not like my popular daughter. (He's not totally excluded or a misfit - just not popular at all)



Ellen,
One common thought has been that this trip of finding a college is a journey of growth for both the teenager and their parents. Self-realization and enlightenment occurs while walking uphill, looking a weirdly dressed students, eating in a student cafe, or travelling 6 hours via car .... but it seems to happen almost to everyone.

Be positive. Enjoy this time ... it is a the best of time.


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## lprstn (Jul 28, 2011)

Everyone's choice is different depending on what they want. I started looking early with my son. Also, I have him taking a few Community College credits in his senior year of high school to see if he is really ready for a full time live on college experience.

However, because he is in the High School EMT program he gets an automatic scholarship to the local Community College which includes his books. Therefore, in his case he wants to be a Physician's Assistant or Physical Therapist so going to the community college for 2 years and getting AA in EMT or related medical field then transferring to a 4 yr college seemed the best benefit for him (besides being a lot cheaper) That way he gets an AA in a medical related field (for free), a BS in a medical related field (with possible scholarship since he's in the field already) and is ready to pursue the Master's level as a PA.

This works out to be a win win for him and us, since it's rather inexpensive. Not to mention with him taking a few Comunity College courses while in High School we don't have to pay a registration fee and he is earning credit hours during his Sr. Year.


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## sail27bill (Jul 28, 2011)

I think that visiting and staying at colleges before hand are very important to get a feel of its atmosphere and vibe, and give one an idea if it is the best fit for them.  I went to Yale (I got accepted at MIT, Cornell, Columbia, Amherst, etc.) and I choose Yale because it was close to home and it felt right.  I did not like Princeton or Harvard at the time as I kept being asked what my parents did for a living (we were middle class and I felt so out of my league) and MIT was so intense when I visited that I knew immediately it was not for me.  Choosing Yale was difficult for my parents financially (if I chose Amherst I was basically given a free ride) but they knew I wanted to go there (Cornell and Columbia were cheaper than Yale as I won scholarships that could only be used in-state) so with their and my help we made it work.  I had loans (my husband actually paid them off after we got married) but as he was a year older and visited me all the time my senior year (we met after my Junior year--he went to Fordham University) I feel like he got a year at Yale too. 

I think that it bothered him how easy I got job interviews and offers because I went there, eventhough looking back, I probably wasn't as qualified going into the business field with a liberal arts degree.  We joke now because although I was very sucessful in the beginning, I have taken jobs less successful over time to meet my family's needs (I wanted to be able to work and still be there after school for my kids and raise them myself).  

Personally, I think that too much is placed on a College's name.  If you are succesfull at wherever you go, and are happy, then that is all that matters.  My son is great at Math and Science, but he has no drive.  He gets B's with very little effort (if any effort at all ).  I know that is the way he is, and I am happy to send him to a State school (he is 15, so I have 2 years to decide) and I still feel he is a little immature and I am worried if he was too far away from home.  As long as he is happy with wherever he chooses, I will be happy. Good luck to you and your family.  It is stressful, but I am sure you will be fine.

Regards,
Anita


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## e.bram (Jul 28, 2011)

We just have to look at the posts on this thread.
Posters that went to Ivys(plus MIT,Stanford and CalTech)are quick to just state their alma mater. Posters that didn't, have long posts explaining why their alma maters are just as good. End of story.

Elitism probably. But that is very important in our society, today.


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## tombo (Jul 28, 2011)

e.bram said:


> We just have to look at the posts on this thread.
> Posters that went to Ivys(MIT,Stanford and CalTech)are quick to just state their alma mater. Posters that didn't, have long posts explaining why their alma maters are just as good. End of story.
> 
> Elitism probably. But that is very important in our society, today.



Elitism from you? Please. You own timeshares to vacation but want to act like your education made you an elite member of society. I know people who barelly make above minimum wage who own timeshares. Elitism is not slumming with the common folks here on TUG. Elitism is owning a second or third home in the Hamptons, Cape Cod, Malibu, Hawaii, Vail, or Palm Beach. Elitism is not owning timeshares and posting on TUG about how successful you are. 

I am sure very few Ivy League grads with mutlimillion dollar incomes timeshare. My wealthy friends own summer homes, ski lodges, and they book what they went when they want to travel. Timesharing is not something they would even consider. In factthey look down on timeshare owners as people who can't afford to own second homes and vaction at expensive places booked last minute. 

I guess going to college at an Ivy League school is more important than the income you make after you get out to some people. You can always brag about your degree around the pool on exchanges. I hope some day I might be that person next to you at the pool because I would absolutelly hurt your feelings if you tried to snob me.

If I graduated from an Ivy League schoola and had to timeshare to vacation I would not feel superior to others, I would feel like a failure. Most of your "elite"classmates own vacation homes. Few if any own timeshare weeks. You have an Ivy League education but can't afford vacation homes, only timeshares. That degree is not working out so well for you huh? Your mom and dad could have sent you to a community college and purchased you a $200,000 summer home from the tuition savings alone. Perhaps through timesharing you can eventually save enough money to afford to become a member of TUG instead of a perpetual guest.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 28, 2011)

e.bram said:


> We just have to look at the posts on this thread.
> Posters that went to Ivys(MIT,Stanford and CalTech)are quick to just state their alma mater. Posters that didn't, have long posts explaining why their alma maters are just as good. End of story.
> 
> Elitism probably. But that is very important in our society, today.



e.bram - it's better to remain be silent and be thought a fool than to post and remove all doubt. (I'm surprised that you didn't learn that at your fine insitution.)  BTW - I'm proof of the stupidity of your statement.

(Or perhaps I should say that I'm sure glad I went to more respected institutions than Cornell, because it's obvious I received a far better education than you did.)


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## pjrose (Jul 28, 2011)

Play nice guys. I'd hate to see this good thread closed.

In the interest of full disclosure, I went to Beloit College, and never took a tour.  I applied because it was the only application I had picked up, and my father was bugging me about getting going with applications.  It was a wonderful place in every way - education, creativity, social, etc, plus I met DH there   I didn't do too well academically at first because I was majoring in DH  but eventually redeemed myself academically. 

I went to the University of New Hampshire and then Cornell for graduate work.  When I had the opportunity to go to Cornell but didn't want to leave UNH, one of my profs at UNH said I'd be an idiot not to go.  UNH's program was better than Cornell's, but Cornell on the vita had more impact for job applications.


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## heathpack (Jul 28, 2011)

suesam said:


> Ellen,
> I have two sons who picked totally different types of colleges. My oldest is a senior at University of Notre Dame. Expensive, will have debt, and ABSOLUTELY loves it. Feels it is an awesome school and is challenged constantly. Classes are tough and expectations are high. Professors are very hands on. From day one I knew they expected a lot and felt that he was in very good hands. He went knowing no one and within 2 days met his awesome friends. The ND alumni have reached out to him on several occasions offering assistance with an internship he is now participating in and offering to help him with finding a job. It is truly amazing. ALL of his friends are graduating in 4 years or less and he knows no one who dropped out.



My brother went to Notre Dame.  It always seemed to me that university was totally dedicated to not just educating their students but making them good people, useful members of their families and society overall.  It was pretty impressive, it really worked.  My brother was a nice guy when he started ND, but an awesome person when he finished.  He also had a tremendously positive experience, that place is top notch I have to say.

And BTW, he became a very successful on Wall Street, owned his own trading company, disproving my previous statement that if you want a Wall St career you should go to a NE Ivy League.

H

H


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 28, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> *MIT is NOT an Ivy League school  *.... nor is Stanford an Ivy School.
> 
> U of Penn
> Princeton
> ...



Caltech is NOT an Ivy League school.

As for Cornell, part of the university is State funded - the Ag School. So e.bram might not have gone to an Ivy or graduated from an Ivy while he might have gone to Cornell or attended Cornell.

And that would explain it all ...


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## Luanne (Jul 28, 2011)

I attended first one of the California UCs, and then transferred and graduated from one of the California state colleges.  I didn't apply to any private schools.  There was no need since at the time the California state college and university system was one of the best in the nation.  Also, I doubt I could have gotten into, or afforded, any of the Ivies, had I even wanted to go there.  Not everyone wants to attend that type of school, or should.  IMHO


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## tombo (Jul 28, 2011)

pjrose said:


> Play nice guys.



E Bram loves to stir the pot and make people mad. I don't think he enjoys posting unless it makes people mad.

I do not begrudge anyone who makes more money than me and I do not feel superior or look down on anyone who makes less. I have friends who are Dr's and friends who did not finish college. I treat them all the same. I like them for who they are, not for what they do for a living or for their income,education, or lack of. 

I do however have little respect for people who feel "elite" by birth right, education level, or because of the money they make. Usually their elitism is simply boasting to deflect from their own deficiencies and shortcomings. Many braggers are really suffering from low self esteem. However to me the reason they brag and/or feel superior is irrelevant. The fact that they do it is disgusting and unacceptable.


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## e.bram (Jul 28, 2011)

My point is being proven by posters.


ps. The Ag school is a private part of Cornell. A good part  of the engineering school and physics  dept. are funded by the Federal gov. That doesn't make them like West Point or Annapolis.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 28, 2011)

e.bram said:


> My point is being proven by posters.
> 
> 
> ps. The Ag school is a private part of Cornell. A good part  of the engineering school and physics  dept. are funded by the Federal gov. That doesn't make them like West Point or Annapolis.



As is mine!!!  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## SueDonJ (Jul 28, 2011)

Well now I feel like I have to play the full disclosure game and fess up that in my post where I talked about our generation going off to college, I wasn't talking about MY experience.  I was talking about what I saw when I watched a few friends go, and I won't pretend that I wasn't jealous as all getout.

I never went to college because the day before my first tuition payment was due the federal government put a hold on all of the grant and loan money, and there was no way that my parents would have (or could have, with eleven kids!) co-signed a personal loan for me.  The Bursar's office called me at 8AM that day, by 9 I was on the T into John Hancock in Boston to try to get an interview (because my parents did not allow us to live at home past 18YO if we were not either fulltime students or employees.)  By 2PM that afternoon I was filling out the HR paperwork and I started working in Death Claims the following Monday.  The next year that paycheck was a whole lot more enticing than entering college as a poor student.

There are infrequent times when I look back wistfully and regret the Architectural Engineering degree that I never earned from Wentworth, but on the whole I've been happy with all the different jobs I've held that allowed me to work around my family's schedules and taught me things I never knew I wanted to learn.  What I'm doing today, a limited amount of bridal fashion sewing, makes me very happy.   

I suppose with the direction this thread has taken you can call me a sometime-wannabe non-Elitist.   

Everything I ever learned about college came from watching Don - when we were dating and through the first six years of our marriage - go through the 5-year co-op program at Northeastern and grad school nights at Bentley, and from my 20-something kids' experiences with applications and their years at Stonehill and UMass.  Oh, and from reading the Boston Globe.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 28, 2011)

Here's a different question.

If you had it all to do over again.  What would you do?

I would still go to USC, but I would major in Cinema instead of engineering.  It just seems so cool.

My second choice would be Princeton because we lived near there and we loved the campus and the setting.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 28, 2011)

Just to be clear - I went to a small southern college (around 220 students in my 4 year graduating class) which some of my relations referred to as "that Southern finishing school". And I worked the 5:30AM breakfast shift in the school's dining hall cooking eggs on the line. Elite was not my college experience.


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## Luanne (Jul 28, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> Here's a different question.
> 
> If you had it all to do over again.  What would you do?
> 
> ...



I wouldn't have gone to my first choice school, UC Irvine (since I left there after two years) but instead to Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, where I was also accepted.  I would have majored in Business Administration.  Most likely if I'd gone there I would have stayed the full four years.  But then life wouldn't have happened the way it did and I probably wouldn't be married to my current husband and have my two dds.  Of course some days that would probably be a _good_ thing. :hysterical:


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## SueDonJ (Jul 28, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> Here's a different question.
> 
> If you had it all to do over again.  What would you do?
> 
> ...



But aren't you never too old to go back to school for the cool things, the fun things??  In the back of my mind at age 65 I'm hoping to enter the freshman class at Berklee College of Music as a Voice major.  (Of course I can't sing for beans but that's just a technicality.    )


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## e.bram (Jul 28, 2011)

As I posted. The posts speak for themselves.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 28, 2011)

e.bram said:


> As I posted. The posts speak for themselves.



Oh just stop.  Help Ellen with her request to get through her son's experience with college applications, or join the rest of us while we travel down Memory Lane and/or up What I Want To Be When I Grow Up Street.  This is a useful thread that has the potential to be fun as well.  Don't be such a stick-in-the-mud - join in!


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## pjrose (Jul 28, 2011)

e.bram said:


> My point is being proven by posters.
> 
> 
> ps. *The Ag school is a private part of Cornell. *A good part  of the engineering school and physics  dept. are funded by the Federal gov. That doesn't make them like West Point or Annapolis.



Isn't the Ag school the State part?  I knew students enrolled in the Ag school paying state tuition who were getting a great deal taking the same non-Ag classes as everyone else.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 28, 2011)

Do-overs?

As for college, I had a great education and luck. I had such positive experiences and opportunities - I would not have changed anything. I managed to avoid the totally nutty teachers and trained via Behavior Modification, the difficult ones. I was offered 2 different graduate FULL RIDE scholarships (accounting & computer science) at two different schools without applications, but by my course work with the department chairmen. And I really never regretted walking away from either ... I taught parttime at the local community college (Systems Analysis) for 7 years. And was eventually went back for my MBA (finance). I had careers for over 12 years between 2 very large companies. But I have spent far more years doing a lot of outdoor work and general business paperwork - it is a better fit for me than sitting in meetings and being ask to make coffee for the others.


And my real major: Math without any teacher certifications, Computer Science from a different university, and an accounting minor.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 28, 2011)

pjrose said:


> Isn't the Ag school the State part?  I knew students enrolled in the Ag school paying state tuition who were getting a great deal taking the same non-Ag classes as everyone else.



Yes. Cornell was going to close that college years ago due to its costs. The state took it over. Not sure about the Hotel and Hospitality school.


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## Luanne (Jul 28, 2011)

I want to add that I absolutely LOVED going on the college visits with my younger dd.  She picked the schools she was interested in, and I just kind of tagged along.


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## NWL (Jul 28, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> Here's a different question.
> 
> If you had it all to do over again.  What would you do?
> 
> ...



No regrets here!  I chose the correct major very early on in my life (Broadcasting), and I thoroughly enjoyed the 2 schools I attended (Univ. of Richmond & Penn State).  My years in college were both academically and emotionally rewarding.

It really is all about what you put into it!

Cheers!


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## glypnirsgirl (Jul 28, 2011)

My dad, a first generation American, believed that women should NOT go to college. He believed that women would just be taking space away from a man that needed to be there. And did not approve of me choosing to go to college.

This from the same man that told me on my 12th birthday, "I will provide a roof over your head and food for you to eat and everything else that you want or need, you will pay for yourself." And, on top of that I was required to save 50% of what I made and tithe 10% - so I lived on 40% of what I made. 

I am so glad that this was my experience. By the time that I was 16, I could buy my own used car (1963 Chevy II SS), pay for my own insurance, buy the clothing that I wanted to wear (even if I changed into some of them once I got to school because although the skirts met the school's dress code, they did not meet my father's much stricter dress code).

By the time that I had graduated from high school, I had enough money saved up to pay for 2 years of college. And then I got the scholarship. 

There are several things that I would have changed. 

The first, when my dad told me that I had to be a chemistry major, I would have told him "No way, you are not paying for this, I am. And I get to choose." 

He was too formidable to stand up to, so when I asked permission to change majors after my first semester, and he refused to let me. ("You are doing well enough.") I chose to do poorly. Lost my scholarship. And got to change my major. (Why do teenagers think this way!)

I sat down with the student handbook and figured out what I could major in and still graduate at the same time. Economics worked (only two classes were the prerequisites for all of the other classes). 

Accounting didn't work, too many prerequisites. If I had not blown that second semester of school, I would have been able to be an accounting major like I really wanted. 

The second thing that I would have changed - I would have flirted with Doug Alexander when he helped me with my computer programming course instead of dating my first husband through out my college years. 

I would not have kept two jobs while attending school full time. 

I would have graduated on May 22nd, but not gotten married on May 29th. 

And I would be an accountant/financial analyst/economist like I wanted to be instead of an attorney like my first husband wanted me to be. 

My mother was adamant that intelligence was not something that we deserved or earned, it was a gift from God. Since we didn't have anything to do with whether or not we were intelligent, we better not think that we were better than other people who got a different gift. 

And, because my dad was extremely intelligent, but not well educated, I learned to not judge other people by their degrees or lack thereof.

As Alan says, *"And so it goes."*

elaine


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## Zac495 (Jul 28, 2011)

e.bram said:


> As I posted. The posts speak for themselves.



WHY? Why are you doing this? Thanks Sue!

Me - I went to the University of Colorado. My parents felt I should go far away from them (we live in Phili area). My parents are profs at the University of Pennsylvania (were I should say - they're retired but only a few years ago) and I could have had a full ride.

If I could do it again, I wouldn't have gone there - it was a party school and I ende up quitting and selling encyclopedias door to  door. I'm  NOT KIDDING. I did eventually go back 2 years later and graduated. I wish I went to University of Delaware or something.

My mom is now having a fit when I mention certain colleges - I thought u of Rhode Island and Drexel looked interesting for instance) She calls some of them 4th rate. ELITIST - boy she's the worst. Want her email, e.bram?

She's not talking north or south. Here's her short list (plus U of Pitt, Penn State main campus and Carnegie Mellon  - and of course the IVY's would be fine ,but probably not right for my son) 

  These are my mother's words not mine: Here are top public universities, all of them will give grand education, prestige, beauty, and moderate price with great value:Univ of North Carolina, U Virginia,, Rutgers, U Florida, Bringhamton (part of NY State colleges), U Maryland.


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## Serina (Jul 28, 2011)

Wow - if college choice discussions can have 'adults' talking to each other like some of the posts here, imagine the pressure our kids might feel...just sayin'


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## glypnirsgirl (Jul 28, 2011)

Ellen - There is a college fair offered in Philadelphia. It is sponsored by the Philadelphia meeting of the Society of Friends ... this is an excerpt from the website:

Rather than being about “Will I get in to College?” or “How can I get in?” this Fair is uniquely centered on “Where will I most thrive, and how can I connect to that place?” It focuses on values-based higher education and its life-long benefits. In addition to meeting ___ College Admissions officers, prospective college students from public high-schools and ___ schools join panel discussions, and learn about the financial aid process.

I liked the sound of "where will I most thrive and how can I connect to that place" --- very pragmatic.

elaine


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## e.bram (Jul 28, 2011)

I didn't create the message(elitist nature of certain schools and reactions to it) or endorsing it.
I am just the messenger and the posts seem to reinforce it.


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## Elan (Jul 28, 2011)

Whenever I think about whether it's important where one went to school, I just look around my department at work.  Lots of smart guys (EE's) with advanced degrees from Stanford, Cornell, Ga Tech, Urbana-Champaign, etc and then I look at the guy they (and I) report to; BSEE from Chico State.  Makes me smile every time I think about it. 

  If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't care where I went to school, but I'd switch from engineering to sportscasting or coaching or athletic administration.  The one constant from my earliest memory til now is my love of sports.


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## Ridewithme38 (Jul 28, 2011)

e.bram said:


> I



I didn't read the thread, or even really the post i quoted...but i agree with e.bram


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## capjak (Jul 28, 2011)

I went to Universtiy of Illinois in champaign, great school.  

I think all the Big Ten schools are good schools, however, they are all very large.

Once you get past your 2nd year and get into your major more it seems smaller.


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## LisaH (Jul 28, 2011)

Zac495 said:


> These are my mother's words not mine: Here are top public universities, all of them will give grand education, prestige, beauty, and moderate price with great value:Univ of North Carolina, U Virginia,, Rutgers, U Florida, Bringhamton (part of NY State colleges), U Maryland.



Ellen, being an elitist or not, your mom is correct. These are great public universities that are relatively affordable. I would add most of the UCs to the list but they are too expensive for out of state students.
Of course, the important thing is if your son would like any of them...


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## davhu1 (Jul 28, 2011)

LisaH said:


> Ellen, being an elitist or not, your mom is correct. These are great public universities that are relatively affordable. I would add most of the UCs to the list but they are too expensive for out of state students.
> Of course, the important thing is if your son would like any of them...



Few more top state schools.  Univ of Michigan (if you don't mind the cold) and College of William & Mary (smaller school).  GA Tech.

UVA starts early action this fall.

Ellen, If Zac likes CM, look into Case Western.  Many use Case as backup to CM and very generous in scholarship. Case also has early action.  If CM is top choice, make sure to visit.  They keep track of student interest and can be a factor in admission.


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## Mel (Jul 28, 2011)

tombo said:


> Elitism from you? Please. You own timeshares to vacation but want to act like your education made you an elite member of society. I know people who barelly make above minimum wage who own timeshares. Elitism is not slumming with the common folks here on TUG. Elitism is owning a second or third home in the Hamptons, Cape Cod, Malibu, Hawaii, Vail, or Palm Beach. Elitism is not owning timeshares and posting on TUG about how successful you are.
> 
> I am sure very few Ivy League grads with mutlimillion dollar incomes timeshare. My wealthy friends own summer homes, ski lodges, and they book what they went when they want to travel. Timesharing is not something they would even consider. In factthey look down on timeshare owners as people who can't afford to own second homes and vaction at expensive places booked last minute.
> 
> ...


The difference is whether you _have to_ timeshare vs. choose to timeshare.  I know several Ivy League graduates who do in fact choose to timeshare - precisely because they are frugal, and wish to keep as much of their hard-earned money as possible.  They do not wish to own a second or third home because they don't want to visit the same place every summer, or they wish to ski in different areas each year.  They also don't want the headaches involved in a rental property, and why own a condo or house that isn't in use 75% of the time?  But then you probably wouldn't consider these people elitists, because they don't bring up their educational background when it is not relevant - though in this particular discussion, it is.

There are definite networking advantages to attending an elite school, if the student is prepared for that school, and if that school offers the type of program that interests the student.  Whether that advantage is worth the costs associated with attending those schools will depend on the individual student, as well as the aid package offered.  

As far as reputation goes, it also depends what field you're going into, where you expect to do so, and whether you will do so immediately after graduation (or whether you expect to go to grad school instead).  

My advice for a rising 11th grader would be not only to do campus tours now, and talk to local students home on break (are there any recent graduates from the same HS attending those schools?), but to see if there is an opportunity to spend a night or weekend on campus.  That will give a better sense of campus life, what dorms are like, what the food is like.

Our oldest is entering 11th grade as well, and is still narrowing her choices.  She is in a residentail program as Johns Hopkins this summer, and spent the last 2 summers at Dickinson College, and has participated in workshops at several other schools, so she is getting the feel for the different types of campuses, and is able to articulate some of the things that will be important to her.  Not on her short list, but she will visit at least one campus in HI when we are there next month for her last big family vacation - again, not so much for a sense of the particular campus, but more of a general sense.  She already has a short list  (and Alabama is not on her list).


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## heathpack (Jul 28, 2011)

Sakes alive, Tombo, you have some pretty judgy "friends". I live in LA, the land of superficiality, and I have not a single friend who implies they are better than me because I own a timeshare.  In fact, some of them own timeshares.  Or maybe people are judging me and I don't notice because I don't care.

H



tombo said:


> Elitism from you? Please. You own timeshares to vacation but want to act like your education made you an elite member of society. I know people who barelly make above minimum wage who own timeshares. Elitism is not slumming with the common folks here on TUG. Elitism is owning a second or third home in the Hamptons, Cape Cod, Malibu, Hawaii, Vail, or Palm Beach. Elitism is not owning timeshares and posting on TUG about how successful you are.
> 
> I am sure very few Ivy League grads with mutlimillion dollar incomes timeshare. My wealthy friends own summer homes, ski lodges, and they book what they went when they want to travel. Timesharing is not something they would even consider. In factthey look down on timeshare owners as people who can't afford to own second homes and vaction at expensive places booked last minute.
> 
> ...


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## tombo (Jul 29, 2011)

heathpack said:


> Sakes alive, Tombo, you have some pretty judgy "friends". I live in LA, the land of superficiality, and I have not a single friend who implies they are better than me because I own a timeshare.  In fact, some of them own timeshares.  Or maybe people are judging me and I don't notice because I don't care.
> 
> H



Start talking to your wealthy friends about timeshares and see how interested they are in owning some. I stated it wrong when I said they looked down on people who owned them. I should have said they have no interest in owning them personally and don't want the headache of planning 6 months or a year in advance to possibly save $500 to $1000 on a week's vacation. They tell me that plans can change and they don't want to commit vacaton time a year in advance unless it is a special occassion or unless they can save $1000's of dollars. The wealthiest people I know say they decide where they want to go a few months to a few weeks in advance and use travel agents or the internet to book their trips. They stay in nice hotels or book larger condos or homes using VRBO or other sites. 

My well to do friends own second and often third homes where they spend long weekends and holidays. When they decide to go somewhere they look for a deal. We were discussing timesharing a while back and I was explaining that I could save $100's to $1000 or more owning a week over renting and I have larger accomodations and usually a full kitchen. They said as a group they wouldn't use the kitchen on vacation and a motel room or a suite is big enough because they are rarelly in the room except to sleep. 

They were asking if they were guaranteed an exchange to any destination they wanted. I said if you own there. They didn't want to be tied to St Thomas, Bali, Jackson Hole, etc every year. they said each year they go to different ski resorts/locations, different islands, different countries. The only annual trips were to their vacation homes. I said I can exchange for a different location each year. They said in December if it is cold and we decide we want to go to Aruba or St Barts in February, can we be guaranteed to get it? I said if you don't own in Aruba a February exchange in December is doubtful, St Barts is not doable. They said as a group they did not want to go there every year and that they can easilly call a travel agent in December and make that trip because they have done so many times. They wanted to know about ski in ski-out accomodations in Vail, Aspen, Jackson Hole, Taos and ifthey could get prime ski weeks at these type resorts changing locations every year like they currently do. I said not something that will work in timesharing. They said what about when we want to go on a cruise. I said not a good deal to exchange your timeshare for a cruise. They as a group are used to getting what they want, when they want it. The getting on the phone 10 to 12 months in advance and perusing exchange companies inventory hoping to get their desired destination was not a viable choice for them.

My friends also told me that they check exchange rates before deciding to travel overseas or not. If the dollar is down against the euro they will not leave the US and simply look for somewhere in the US they would like to go. If the dollar gains value against the euro or if air fares drop they will book a spur of the moment trip because it is cheap. If air fares are high they will simply vacation at their second home or at a drive to location. I said I do the same thing with timeshares looking for cheap flights and locking them in. They said to possibly save $1000 by obligating themselves a year in advance is not a deal they were interested in. They as a group agreed that next year the economy could suck, the dollar could be down, air fares could be up, there might be a family crisis, their business short some key personnel, or even a death or illness in the family could appear between now and next year. They all agreed that timeshares had too many variables for too little savings to obligate themselves annually to travel anywhere at any set time or to have to book 10 to 12 months in advance in order to get the best destinations. 

To be fair they all graciously said they were glad that it worked for me, but none of them were interested in owning a week anywhere. 

I am not saying that some wealthy people don't timeshare, but I don't personally know any physician or wealthy person who owns a timeshare or who is interested in doing so. Every single one of them owns at least one vacation home on a lake, the ocean, in the mountains, and/or at a ski resort.


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## tombo (Jul 29, 2011)

Mel said:


> I know several Ivy League graduates  But then you probably wouldn't consider these people elitists, because they don't bring up their educational background when it is not relevant - though in this particular discussion, it is.
> 
> There are definite networking advantages to attending an elite school, if the student is prepared for that school, and if that school offers the type of program that interests the student.  Whether that advantage is worth the costs associated with attending those schools will depend on the individual student, as well as the aid package offered.
> 
> ...



First please re-read the posts and see that the "elite" snobby statement was stated as a fact by more than one Ivy League grad. They discussed in subtle and less than subtle statements how they do feel elite by virtue of having those degrees. 

I have no problem with Ivy league grads or MIT or Vandy or any other grads. To get accepted there and to graduate from there aregreat accomplishments. They attained their degrees through hard work and they like their schools. 

I am glad that the Elite school grads are proud of their degrees but I worked hard to get my degree too and I also like my school. I disparaged nobody else's school yet the smug few disparaged not only my alma mater, but even disparaged every Southern University saying they weren't respected outside of the south. So before you label me as a hater please re-read and see that my responses were only negative after my school and region of the US was attacked. For some reason it still seems acceptable to some to  denigrate and demean the south. 

I agree that the Ivy League schools have a much better network than public schools. I also feel that a Rolls Royce is better than a Nissan. It doesn't mean that people who drive Rolls Royce's are the only intelligent car buyers and that all other drivers but them should be looked down upon. Most people can't afford a Rolls, and some who can afford to buy a Rolls do not think it is worth the extra cost.

And finally I NEVER in a single post suggested to the OP, you, or anyone else that their kid should go to Bama. I related my personal experience and that of my children. I closed my post with LET YOUR CHILD CHOOSE THE SCHOOL THEY WANT THAT IS IN YOUR BUDGET BECAUSE IT SHOULD BE THEIR CHOICE. The ones who were so adamant in their praise and recommendations of their schools as the best choice were MAINLY those who attended the "elite " schools. 

So your child does not have Bama on their list. Good because as I stated more than once it should be your child's choice and I have no dog in the race. As long as my Alma Mater beats your child's college choice in football I am happy.  

If you want to see why I said what I said please re-read everything, not just the highlights where I got angry after the "elite" snobs denigrated my alma mater and my section of the country. I had not made a single negative statement about the north or the elite schools other than they were too expensive for most people to afford prior to their antiquated, predjudiced, offensive comments.


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## suesam (Jul 29, 2011)

Ellen, 
Another thing we did when looking at colleges was to buy one of those Princeton Reviews or something like it. They compare schools and talk to students about what they like or do not like about the school. My boys spent a lot of time looking at the book comparing and reading. 
My second son also went to a summer camp exploring engineering between his junior and senior year in high school at one of the colleges he was considering. Gave him a feel of what kind of kid went to the college. 

I too am worried about the xbox issue! We are not letting him take the xbox with him the first semester. Hopefully his roommate will not have one! My son is an introvert by nature so the xbox is way too much of a temptation. 

The college research is really fun.....and then it is amazing how fast it is over and they are ready to go out in the world! It seems like yesterday my oldest son went to college and now he is almost done! Amazing. 

Sue


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## Zac495 (Jul 29, 2011)

davhu1 said:


> Few more top state schools.  Univ of Michigan (if you don't mind the cold) and College of William & Mary (smaller school).  GA Tech.
> 
> UVA starts early action this fall.
> 
> Ellen, If Zac likes CM, look into Case Western.  Many use Case as backup to CM and very generous in scholarship. Case also has early action.  If CM is top choice, make sure to visit.  They keep track of student interest and can be a factor in admission.



We did visit CM! They mentioned the factor in admission - and they made it clear he needs leadership qualities - something he doens't really have but is now determined to figure out somehow. THANKS. I haven't heard of Case Western. Where is it?

Lisa - great idea about the college fair.
Elaine - thanks - even tho my mom irritated me, she is smart, so hearing you agree made me feel good.


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## Zac495 (Jul 29, 2011)

suesam said:


> Ellen,
> Another thing we did when looking at colleges was to buy one of those Princeton Reviews or something like it. They compare schools and talk to students about what they like or do not like about the school. My boys spent a lot of time looking at the book comparing and reading.
> My second son also went to a summer camp exploring engineering between his junior and senior year in high school at one of the colleges he was considering. Gave him a feel of what kind of kid went to the college.
> 
> ...



Sue, Zac wants to go to CM gaming camp the summer of junior year (7K) - but I don't know... he isn't even admitted yet. He says he has to play xbox because it's his passion and what he wants to do for a living and I just don't understand. I HATE that box. Maybe I should break it b4 he leaves. :rofl: Not sure I can ban him from bringing it - it's his life... or what? Not sure...


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## Twinkstarr (Jul 29, 2011)

Zac495 said:


> We did visit CM! They mentioned the factor in admission - and they made it clear he needs leadership qualities - something he doens't really have but is now determined to figure out somehow. THANKS. I haven't heard of Case Western. Where is it?
> 
> Lisa - great idea about the college fair.
> Elaine - thanks - even tho my mom irritated me, she is smart, so hearing you agree made me feel good.



Case Western is in Cleveland Ohio.


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## Rene McDaniel (Jul 29, 2011)

Zac495 said:


> I can't believe I spent today looking at colleges with my son. He's going into 11th so it's a little early -but it felt right. We saw Pitt and Carnegie Mellon today. Are the private colleges (like Carnegie) really going to give a kid a HUGE boost over a very good college like Pitt?
> 
> What is most important? How did those of you who have been through this choose? What did you take into consideration (besides the obvious answer of money).
> 
> thanks all!



Ellen,
My daughter just finished 11th grade & is starting 12th, so we are getting close to the END of the college search process.  I think 11th grade is a good time to start taking the college tours, and exploring various college options, interests, career aspirations, etc.  It is really a huge process to go through, and what my daughter consider important has changed & evolved over time.  Plus, my own feelings about what would or would not be a good fit have changed over time. Looking back, I wish we would have done groundwork PRIOR to 11th.  She is a straight-A student (even in her AP classes), but we could have made her extra-curriculars even stronger if I had started researching college info sooner.  But even starting as late as 11th grade, I think she will still be pretty competitive.

A very good book that was a great help to me early on is "What High Schools Don't Tell You (and other parents don't want you to know)" by Elizabeth Wissner-Gross.  The author is definitely a helicopter mom, but if your child is going pre-med, engineering, wants highly-selective colleges, or needs lots of scholarship money -- she's got lots of great ideas for building your child's resume so that it screams "Wow, look what I've done".  Since reading that book last summer (just before 11th gr), my daughter has done several things to enhance her college applications:

- Was elected to Vice President (11th) of her Youth & Govt. chapter, and will be president now in 12th.

-  To show her genuine interest in political science/govt. she contacted our US Congressman, and arranged a 15-hour per week unpaid internship in his San Diego office August - November 2010.  They were happy to have the extra help as it was time for re-election.  Besides the grunt work (good for the soul) she was able to attend debates, work behind the scenes, give input into his ad campaign, attend fundraisers, & all the election-night hoopla, interviews & parties.  It was an amazing experience for her.

- She still needed to start something for her own contribution to our community, so she started a leadership & self-esteem building program for low-income middle school girls after her internship ended.  She uses the YMCA & they meet once a week during the school year.  This has probably been her most daunting challenge, but she is still hanging in there.

- At the beginning of 11th she went in & talked to her counselor about Girls State/Boys State & that she wanted to be considered. (We had never even heard of Girls State before reading the book.)  When Spring came she interviewed with 5 other high-achieving 11th grade girls.  She wowed the American Legion team of interviewers by talking about her internship with our Congressman, her interest in Public Policy, her work with low-income middle school girls . Aced the interview & she spent 1 week this summer @ Girls State with 500+ other high-achievers at no cost to us.

- After she was selected for Girls State, her US History teacher suggested that she should apply for "Economics for Leaders", another week-long summer program for high-achievers hosted @ UCLA, Cornell, Vanderbuilt & some other colleges.  She applied to the UCLA session, was accepted & will attend for 7 days in August.  (Cost: $400 & includes housing in the UCLA dorms for a week, all meals, and a very rigorous program.)

- Next thing I knew she was received another award from the American Legion for Outstanding Community Service, and a 2nd "Shining Eagle award" (large eagle trophy) from her school.  So, it's been like a series of dominoes falling.  One recognition leading to another, then another, then another.  And I thank the "What High Schools Don't Tell You" book, or she would have only been listing her video production team, key club, Way club, National Honor Society, and JV golf team on her college apps.  Those extra-curriculars might have been fine for the UC's & state colleges, but those were not EC's that are going to get you into Stanford or ivies, where they receive over 30,000 applications from mostly straight-A students compete for 1,500 freshman spots. 

Okay, my apologies for a really long response, but I am on a roll.  Read the book, the outside-the-school extra-curriculars is making a huge difference in how my daughter is being treated by the colleges.  They literally drool over her at college fairs, and pull her off to the side.  The admissions officers will spend a 1/2 hour talking to her after the info sessions and always suggest she apply early admission.   

There are some other things we have learned along the way by doing a lot of listening & talking to others, so I will try to summarize those as well.

(1) Visit colleges that are in driving distance and visit lots of them (only the ones your child would consider going to).  Register with the college in advance, start in the morning by listening to the Admissions officer pitch & take the group tour of the campus.  We like to have lunch in the cafeteria with the students & feel the vibe of the place. If we know anybody who knows anybody who goes to that school, we contact them in advance & try to meet them for coffee, take them to lunch -- whatever.  We wear our walking shoes & wander around the campus, poke our noses everywhere, check out the dorms (someone is always kind enough to let you in for a peek),  the classrooms, talk to people in the poli sci dept -- staff, advisors, anyone.  We also read the bulletin boards, pick up college newspapers & flyers of interest.  We ask students what they love about their school, hate, their classes, their workload, their professors, their social life, how they spend their weekends, their extra-curriculars, everything we can possibly think of.  Each college gets a full day, but if we get turned off, we leave and that's that.  We live in Southern California, so we have just made individual day trips to colleges within a 2 hour drive.  In the beginning of June we made 5-day driving trip to Northern California (an 8 hour drive for us) and looked at 1 college per day up there - UC Berkeley, UC Davis & Stanford.

(2)  The biggest question for all of us as parents is whether or not to tour the colleges on the other coast.  I was willing to set up & pay for the trip, because I felt my daughter would write better essays if she had more first hand familiarity with the colleges.  Plus, I have heard that colleges view the application more seriously if they see you have taken the time to visit the campus.  I was also hoping that by actually seeing/experiencing some of the east coast schools -- possibly we could shorten the list of apps. But, in talking with her older friends, my daughter heard sad stories of families who had toured back East, & didn't get into ANY of the colleges they toured.  She felt they were much more devastated having gone to all that effort & expense for nothing.  After seeing a real superstar friend of hers (robotics champion, & one of the top students at her school) get rejection letters from 8 top engineering schools - MIT/CalTech/etc., and only getting in at 1 school - UC Berkeley.  He was totally depressed & really doesn't want to go there.  So, I guess doing all the east coast apps & seeing who my daughter gets acceptances & scholarships from is fine by me.  If she gets acceptances that come with scholarships, then we'll go & tour those schools during Spring Break next year.   

(3) If she gets some elite college acceptance, but no scholarship money -- we've already had the talk --- it's not an option.  She does not get to rack up $200,000 of college debt for a B.S. degree.  If she doesn't get scholarships from the privates, that means she will have to go to one of the UC's - which are still over $20,000 year for tuition & room/board for California residents.  Sheesh. Thank goodness they offer a monthly payment plan. We make her watch every Suze Orman episode, or Frontline story on the horrors of student loan debt.  So, she has heard over & over again not to go into debt for undergraduate degrees. Still, I am sure it will be hard if she gets an acceptance from Univ of Penn or Georgetown, but no money.  I'll tell her to enjoy the honor of it, frame it/whatever, but go to college somewhere else.  Several of the highly selective colleges have told us that if your income is less than $100,000 accepted students receive full scholarship for tuition & parents pay room/board.  Which puts several highly-selective privates as much cheaper options than the California State Universities.  Probably part of why they get 30,000+ applications per year.

(4) Last piece is on the testing, SAT & ACT.  You really have to start the prep work early.  I thought my daughter would do well because her grades are great, and she takes the all the AP courses -- but her writing scores were awful on both the SAT & ACT essays.  It takes a while to get the scores back, so we just found out this summer & are struggling to get her help from a SAT/ACT tutor.  Who knew they book up so quickly at the prices they charge?  The best ones in our area are already booked through October, which is too late for us at this point.  In contacting tutors & "college consultants", I sent them an email summarizing my daughters SAT scores & ACT scores (by category), SAT II Test Scores (Math2, Lit, & Physics), and AP test scores and the list of colleges she would be applying to.  One college consultant emailed me back to say she was also booked through October, but that I should have my daughter retake the SAT Subject Test in Math.  I asked why because she had an overall 32 on the ACT & for the math portion she was at the 99th percentile.  The consultant informed me that admissions officers would be confused about which math score truly reflected her ability The excellent 34 in Math on the ACT or the lousy 600 on the SAT Subject Test.  I would have never known there was a problem or questionable area without an expert pointing it out, so that was a lucky break.  So, she will re-take the ACT on September 10 to up her writing score, then retake the SAT Subject test in Math on October 1.  Her first college application is due 1 month later on November 1st, and I think she has deadlines for Scholarship applications for a couple of colleges on her list that are due in October.  Long before the apps are due.  There is a lot to keep track of.  But hopefully in the end -- all the hard work pays off.  We've done a LOT of college shopping, but through that process we've figured out my daughter's wants & needs,  and what the colleges she is attracted to are looking for in their students.  Like others, we also love the CollegeConfidential.com website -- so much good information on the college forums. Plus, my daughter is following the application wisdom of those who have gone before: some reach schools, several match schools, and a couple of safety schools.  

It has definitely been a great bonding experience for us.  It takes a lot of work and a lot of time, but it's worth it because it's so cool to be a part of this exciting time in their lives.

--- Rene


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## MULTIZ321 (Jul 29, 2011)

Zac495 said:


> THANKS. I haven't heard of Case Western. Where is it?



Zac,

To add to TwinkStar's post - Case Western Reserve University is in Cleveland, Ohio.  Formerly it was Western Reserve University and Case Institute of Technology, the campuses being adjacent to each other. In the early 60's the school's merged for financial reasons and changed the name to Case Western Reserve University.

Very good school in an urban campus.  If you're looking for a college town atmosphere - this isn't it.

Richard


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## pjrose (Jul 29, 2011)

Rene McDaniel said:


> Ellen,
> My daughter just finished 11th grade & is starting 12th, so we are getting close to the END of the college search process.  . . .
> 
> A very good book that was a great help to me early on is "What High Schools Don't Tell You (and other parents don't want you to know)" by Elizabeth Wissner-Gross.  . . . Since reading that book last summer (just before 11th gr), my daughter has done several things to enhance her college applications:
> ...



Wow!  I can see why they're drooling over her!


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## brigechols (Jul 29, 2011)

Twinkstarr said:


> I went to Purdue



Hello fellow Boilermaker 

 Accepted to MIT but only received a partial scholarship. So, this southern girl headed to Purdue (full academic scholarship) to study electrical engineering.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 29, 2011)

brigechols said:


> Hello fellow Boilermaker
> 
> Accepted to MIT but only received a partial scholarship. So, this southern girl headed to Purdue (full academic scholarship) to study electrical engineering.



Nice.  Congrats!  My wife almost went to Purdue.  I am glad she didn't because then I would never have met her.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 29, 2011)

capjak said:


> I went to Universtiy of Illinois in champaign, great school.
> 
> I think all the Big Ten schools are good schools, however, they are all very large.
> 
> Once you get past your 2nd year and get into your major more it seems smaller.



The Big 10 has a lot of great Universities, both Academic and Sports.  The Pac 12 and Big 10 have that in common  Unfortunately, the Big 10 can't count.  How many teams are now in the Big 10?

.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Jul 29, 2011)

tombo said:


> Start talking to your wealthy friends about timeshares and see how interested they are in owning some. I stated it wrong when I said they looked down on people who owned them. I should have said they have no interest in owning them personally and don't want the headache of planning 6 months or a year in advance to possibly save $500 to $1000 on a week's vacation. They tell me that plans can change and they don't want to commit vacaton time a year in advance unless it is a special occassion or unless they can save $1000's of dollars. The wealthiest people I know say they decide where they want to go a few months to a few weeks in advance and use travel agents or the internet to book their trips. They stay in nice hotels or book larger condos or homes using VRBO or other sites.
> 
> My well to do friends own second and often third homes where they spend long weekends and holidays. When they decide to go somewhere they look for a deal. We were discussing timesharing a while back and I was explaining that I could save $100's to $1000 or more owning a week over renting and I have larger accomodations and usually a full kitchen. They said as a group they wouldn't use the kitchen on vacation and a motel room or a suite is big enough because they are rarelly in the room except to sleep.
> 
> ...



Sounds to me like you got yourself caught in a pickle.  Face it.  Your example failed and simply made yourself sound bad on a message board dedicated to the exact people you are putting down.  Not really smart.  It's probably better just to say you were wrong and shouldn't have used this example.

We know why you did it.  You were mad and tried to come up with a come back.  But, that come back reflected very poorly on you.


----------



## tombo (Jul 29, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> Sounds to me like you got yourself caught in a pickle.  Face it.  Your example failed and simply made yourself sound bad on a message board dedicated to the exact people you are putting down.  Not really smart.  It's probably better just to say you were wrong and shouldn't have used this example.
> 
> We know why you did it.  You were mad and tried to come up with a come back.  But, that come back reflected very poorly on you.



Forget it. I responded with one of my typical long winded diatribes but I deleted it. 

You all win. I am not smart. I make moonshine for a living and hide from revenuers to supplement my minumum wage income. My region of the country sucks. I married my sister. A southern 4 year degree can be purchased at Wal Mart for $4.99 (on sale). The only Dr I know personally is Dr Pepper. 

On TUG apparently only elite school grads can tout their alma maters and their region of the country without being maligned. Ya'll have at it. I am tired of debating. I posted about my school and the SEC like others posted about the Ivy league and the Big 10, pac 10, etc. The  difference is that the only schools referred to on this thread as lacking respect were the southern schools.  

Congratulations. 3002 posts and I have had enough. Carolinian and E Bram can both celebrate tonight and start finding new people to piss off. I will not post on this thread again and I am seriously considering not posting on TUG anymore. Bye.


----------



## Twinkstarr (Jul 29, 2011)

brigechols said:


> Hello fellow Boilermaker
> 
> Accepted to MIT but only received a partial scholarship. So, this southern girl headed to Purdue (full academic scholarship) to study electrical engineering.



I knew I couldn't be the only Boilermaker on TUG!


----------



## pjrose (Jul 29, 2011)

We have some wealthy relatives who own a second house on the water in the Hamptons, and have always looked quite disinterested when we've invited them to our timeshares.  Besides weekends in the Hamptons, they vacation in Beverly Hills, Italy, St. Barts....often at spas or the villas of friends.  

Once they did accept from us a gift of a week in the Dominican Republic, where they spent most of their time visiting with various high ranking politicos, using the TS as home base.

Back on topic, their college affiliations and those of their kids have been with small private liberal arts schools or well known NYC schools.


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## Mel (Jul 30, 2011)

tombo said:


> First please re-read the posts and see that the "elite" snobby statement was stated as a fact by more than one Ivy League grad. They discussed in subtle and less than subtle statements how they do feel elite by virtue of having those degrees.
> 
> I have no problem with Ivy league grads or MIT or Vandy or any other grads. To get accepted there and to graduate from there aregreat accomplishments. They attained their degrees through hard work and they like their schools.
> 
> ...


Those who posted about the perception of southern schools were not snubbing you, but pointing out that there is a perception that southern schools for the most part do not offer the same education.  It's all about perception, when you leave school and are looking for a job.  The same can be said of large schools, where many believe you are just a small fish in the big sea.

I don't think any of those you call elitist are in fact elitists (after all, they own timeshare, and you seem to think they should be ashamed, or maybe they're not as well off as they would like us to think they are).  To say that your alma mater is not well regarded in certain parts of the county is not denigrating it, it is stating a fact.  You live in the south, so perhaps you don't see it.  I live in New England, and I know what people around here think of southern schools - not just the "elites" but just average people.  There are so many choices around here, a southern school would have to really stand out to be recommended, as would a school in California, or really anywhere West of the Mississippi River.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 30, 2011)

Mel said:


> Those who posted about the perception of southern schools were not snubbing you, but pointing out that there is a perception that southern schools for the most part do not offer the same education.  It's all about perception, when you leave school and are looking for a job.  The same can be said of large schools, where many believe you are just a small fish in the big sea.
> 
> I don't think any of those you call elitist are in fact elitists (after all, they own timeshare, and you seem to think they should be ashamed, or maybe they're not as well off as they would like us to think they are).  To say that your alma mater is not well regarded in certain parts of the county is not denigrating it, it is stating a fact.  You live in the south, so perhaps you don't see it.  I live in New England, and I know what people around here think of southern schools - not just the "elites" but just average people.  There are so many choices around here, a southern school would have to really stand out to be recommended, as would a school in California, or really anywhere West of the Mississippi River.



I am pretty sure that anyone living in the Northeast would be proud to be accepted into Stanford or Cal Tech.  ANYONE.

Most would be thrilled to be accepted to Cal, UCLA or USC.  Problem is that the overwhelming majority of high school students living in the Northeast would not get accepted if they applied.

Those, too, are facts.  California is chock full of World Class Universities.

There is not a single University in the North East that is both a top rated academic University AND an athletic powerhouse.  4 of the 5 listed above have World Class Athletic programs in addition to being World Class academic schools.

In addition, last I saw, Duke is in the South.


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## AKE (Jul 30, 2011)

In my opinion there is too much emphasis on choosing the 'right school'. Number on consideration is the cost - if you can't afford it then eliminate it.  Number two is the child's own interests and how these are matched to a school.  In most cases a child can almost always find something of interest, no matter which school and there is little guarantee that the child will actually end up graduating in the area that they chose at 17 or 18.  A 'good' school may get your child door to a job but it will do nothing more for you child that as it is they who have to prove their worth to the organization.  Many so perceived 'good' school are only good at one thing and that is MARKETING! Don't get caught in the trap and be fooled by this - most parents and definitely kids have little knowledge of marketing techniques used by schools to attract students.


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## 1950bing (Jul 30, 2011)

Kids will change their mind. Talked to a girl just this morning as she is going
from a HOKIE to a WHOO !


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## heathpack (Jul 30, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> In addition, last I saw, Duke is in the South.



PLEASE no one say anything positive about DOOK!!!  I will not be able to refrain, LOL.

H

PS If you don't know what I'm talking about, its a basketball thing.  My brother-in-law went to Dook.  His sons went to Carolina.  He is not allowed to speak of it during basketball season.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 30, 2011)

heathpack said:


> PLEASE no one say anything positive about DOOK!!!  I will not be able to refrain, LOL.
> 
> H
> 
> PS If you don't know what I'm talking about, its a basketball thing.  My brother-in-law went to Dook.  His sons went to Carolina.  He is not allowed to speak of it during basketball season.



One of my sister's was Coach Foster's daughter's roommate for at least 2 years at that Princeton wannabe school. They copied the architecture and quad layout when the heiress was rebutted by Princeton as Princeton would not rename the school to honor her. So she cloned it in NC.


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## Mel (Jul 30, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> I am pretty sure that anyone living in the Northeast would be proud to be accepted into Stanford or Cal Tech.  ANYONE.
> 
> Most would be thrilled to be accepted to Cal, UCLA or USC.  Problem is that the overwhelming majority of high school students living in the Northeast would not get accepted if they applied.
> 
> ...


As I said, they would have to stand out - each of the schools you mentioned do in fact stand out.  I wouldn't refuse to send DD to a southern school, or one in California, but they're not likely to show on her radar unless something specific draws her attention.  

As for athletic powerhouse, not all of us are looking for that.  My DD would rather not be at such a school.  She sees it as a distraction from the purpose of the school - to educate the students.  

Perhaps the majority of students would not get into the schools you cite, but that can be said of the top schools anywhere - that's why they're called "highly selective."  Many of those from the northeast who could get in don't apply, because they too have an abundant choice of world class schools much closer to home.

I'm going to disagree with AKE about eliminating a school you can't afford, because in reality, you have no idea which schools you can afford until you get financial aid offers.  If there is something unique about a particular student, and that school wants him to attend, they will offer a better package.  I've heard several financial aid officers mention that Harvard and Yale may indeed be more affordable than "less expensive" schools because they have large endowments, and will include more grants in your aid package.  The sticker price doesn't really mean anything, unless you're wealthy enough to not qualify for any aid - and if you're that wealthy, you're not going to worry about the price.

In this age when people change jobs every few years, I also disagree about your alma mater only mattering to get your foot in the door at that first job.  What Harvard, Yale, Duke, and the other "elite" schools offer is a network, to get you that foot in the door every time you change jobs.  DH is in the process of filling 3 positions, and they don't advertise everywhere.  The best candidates are not necessarily those who are local and would see the advertisements, but those who know about the positions because they were alerted by their college roommate who already works there.  Some of that networking is done within your industry after you graduate, but a significant portion of a good network is built during college.


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## 3kids4me (Jul 30, 2011)

Wow, nothing like the old college discussion to get people fighting and one-upping each other!


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 30, 2011)

heathpack said:


> PLEASE no one say anything positive about DOOK!!!  I will not be able to refrain, LOL.
> 
> H
> 
> PS If you don't know what I'm talking about, its a basketball thing.  My brother-in-law went to Dook.  His sons went to Carolina.  He is not allowed to speak of it during basketball season.



My Uncle is a Professor at UNC and he hates Duke.  I like both the Tar Heels and the Blue Devils mostly because my own alma mater hasn't really had great basketball teams.  It was easier to root for teams in the ACC.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 30, 2011)

3kids4me said:


> Wow, nothing like the old college discussion to get people fighting and one-upping each other!



smack talk is what makes college fun.  football and basketball schools are masters at it.  I am just surprised that Tombo is so sensitive.   TUG is much milder than the football boards.  During big games, they actually have to shut down the boards at times given how bad the smack talk gets.


----------



## Zac495 (Jul 30, 2011)

Rene McDaniel said:


> Ellen,
> My daughter just finished 11th grade & is starting 12th, so we are getting close to the END of the college search process.  I think 11th grade is a good time to start taking the college tours, and exploring various college options, interests, career aspirations, etc.  It is really a huge process to go through, and what my daughter consider important has changed & evolved over time.  Plus, my own feelings about what would or would not be a good fit have changed over time. Looking back, I wish we would have done groundwork PRIOR to 11th.  She is a straight-A student (even in her AP classes), but we could have made her extra-curriculars even stronger if I had started researching college info sooner.  But even starting as late as 11th grade, I think she will still be pretty competitive.
> 
> A very good book that was a great help to me early on is "What High Schools Don't Tell You (and other parents don't want you to know)" by Elizabeth Wissner-Gross.  The author is definitely a helicopter mom, but if your child is going pre-med, engineering, wants highly-selective colleges, or needs lots of scholarship money -- she's got lots of great ideas for building your child's resume so that it screams "Wow, look what I've done".  Since reading that book last summer (just before 11th gr), my daughter has done several things to enhance her college applications:
> ...



Okay WOW. I can't imagine my son being able to do all of this. He's a great student, but couldn't compete with your daughter if her hands were tied behind her back. Still, I'll get the book and talk to my son about what you said. THANKS


----------



## Zac495 (Jul 30, 2011)

heathpack said:


> It definitely matters where you go- a good school will give you a better education, which is the whole point.  However, there are a great many public colleges that can do the job more cost effectively and not leave the student massively in debt.
> 
> In my mind, he should be looking at the college which will provide the broadest possible opportunity at the least cost, there is no way he can know what he wants to do right now.  In high school, my interests were 100% literature and history, totally hated science.  In college, I changed majors a number of times: history, English, comparative literature (classical Chinese poetry of all things), biology, and chemistry (not so much a waffler, just was interested in a lot of things).  Finally graduated with a degree in English literature & then went to veterinary school.  So one never can tell what you'll do, I say go for a big affordable public university.
> 
> ...



We're going to look at U of North Carolina - and U of Virginia


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## CapriciousC (Jul 30, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> My son has interest in MIT and he has a chance of getting in.  We will be visiting the University next month.  My biggest fear of MIT is that it is so far away with harsh winters and it has a terrible reputation for suicide attempts.  Is that something to be concerned about?  Or, is the concern overblown?



Boca - good questions.  I'll answer the easy one first 

Harsh winters - yes, they are something to adjust to.  I grew up in St. Petersburg, and going from southern Florida to Boston was a heck of a shock, weather-wise.  Thank heavens the young are so resilient   The great thing about the campus and Boston in general is that you can get around quite easily without a car, so you don't have to worry about him driving in the snow.

Now, to the not-so-easy question.  Yes, it's a pressure cooker.  Most of the kids at MIT were among the smartest in their classes or schools.  So it can be a bit of an adjustment when suddenly you're surrounded by people who are all really brainy.  I think it's really about personality - some kids will do well in that environment, and others will have a hard time dealing with the pressure.  Personally, I never knew anyone who attempted suicide, but I did see a lot of my classmates drop out or transfer over the years I was there.  That said, finishing there made me feel like I could face anything.

The other benefit was the networking, although the same could be said of Caltech, and the weather's certainly better, not to mention the connection to NASA's JPL.  Has he considered that option?  Perhaps it's just the California weather, but the attitude there seems to be a bit more relaxed, but I think the academics are just as good.


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## CapriciousC (Jul 30, 2011)

Conan said:


> MIT is no party school. The usual description of study at MIT is that it's like trying to drink from a firehose. I would only recommend MIT to somebody who actually enjoys hands-on tech. A typical MIT student, when they were in high school, enjoyed some hands-on math or science work along the lines of maybe learning and applying an advanced computer language, or designing/building their own robot, or tube amplifier, or medical device, etc., etc., etc.



I would definitely agree with this.  I was the kid who took apart lamps, radios, tape recorders, etc. to see how they worked.  Now I design visual displays for aircraft, but I'm never happier than when I'm in the lab, working out software bugs.  If your son is a hands-on kind of kid, it could be a great fit for him.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Jul 31, 2011)

Mel said:


> As for athletic powerhouse, not all of us are looking for that.  My DD would rather not be at such a school.  She sees it as a distraction from the purpose of the school - to educate the students.



I wasn't looking for it even though I was a rabid sports fan growing up as a kid.  What it does is adds a completely different dimension of excitement to the University.

At a large University, if you couldn't care less about the athletics, it is very easy to stay away from it.  But, if you are into it, it's tremendously exciting.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Jul 31, 2011)

CapriciousC said:


> Boca - good questions.  I'll answer the easy one first
> 
> Harsh winters - yes, they are something to adjust to.  I grew up in St. Petersburg, and going from southern Florida to Boston was a heck of a shock, weather-wise.  Thank heavens the young are so resilient   The great thing about the campus and Boston in general is that you can get around quite easily without a car, so you don't have to worry about him driving in the snow.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info.  Your experience mirrors my expectations.  I am not sure if my son can get accepted into MIT.  But, I do believe he would be intellectually fulfilled there.  He is not one to focus on or be pre-occupied with grades (much to my chagrin).  He cares much more about learning.  He comes up with some truly amazing insights.  Early this year, we were on a run and he told me that he was working on an approach for calculating the general length of a curve (basically, a polynomial).  He hypothesized that he could use calculus and geometry to determine it.  He wrote down the integral, shared it with his calculus teacher and voila, he discovered differential geometry on his own.  I was impressed.

In addition, he is gifted in physics.  He actually looks at equations and he sees the implications of them.  Listening to him reminds me a lot of Isaac Asimov's Foundation series.  Mitchell is like a Second Foundation member.   Just this week, he was describing to me exactly how objects distort when they approach the speed of light.  And, he described why it was they distorted in the way they do.   This is what he does in his free time.

Actually, I think that Cal Tech might be a better fit for him.  But, I am not sure he can get in there either.  It is a very small school with only 200 students per class.  But, what differentiates Cal Tech is that undergrads get primo research opportunities. The environment might be perfect for him. We shall see.

By the way, we named my son Mitchell because when my wife was pregnant with him, I was travelling to Europe and sat down next to a really smart guy named Mitchell who was an MIT grad and we really hit if off.  It's strange how these things work, isn't it?


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## heathpack (Jul 31, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> I wasn't looking for it even though I was a rabid sports fan growing up as a kid.  What it does is adds a completely different dimension of excitement to the University.
> 
> At a large University, if you couldn't care less about the athletics, it is very easy to stay away from it.  But, if you are into it, it's tremendously exciting.



I had an anti-interest in watching someone else play sports growing up and even now.  I didn't even know Carolina was a basketball school when I arrived.  UNC athletics was not a factor in my decision to go to school there.

Now I am obsessed.  The _*worst*_ thing about living in California is that not every Carolina game is televised here.

However, Carolina has a particularly classy basketball program, the players are not just used up and thrown away.  They are expected to get an education like everyone else, the basketball program has an 88% graduation rate.  Even Michael Jordon came back and finished his degree after leaving school early to turn pro.

For me, UNC was the first real democratic place I went to school.  Even though I went to public school, I was tracked into honors and advanced placement classes and I really went to high school with 50 other smart white kids from the suburbs of NYC.  At UNC, I found myself going to school with all kinds of people, with a very wide range of abilities and agendas (including basketball). The agenda was not all about being smart or proving yourself to be smart to others.  That was not just refreshing, it was important, so different from what my HS experience had been like.  By the time I left UNC, pretty much all my sterotypes had been shattered-- you don't really get to know what people are like when you are in a very uniform group of people and you tend to make assumptions about "others."  I think I could have been a very different person if I had not had such a broadening experience at college. 

H


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## davhu1 (Jul 31, 2011)

Zac495 said:


> We're going to look at U of North Carolina - and U of Virginia



Ellen,

Others responded to where Case is.  Case has one of the best admission offices of all the colleges we visited.  Very personal.  Case students also follows up with post card and phone calls.  They also offer local interviews.

If you are visiting UNC and UVA, consider visiting College of William and Mary (Williamsburg VA).  On par with both of these schools but much smaller.  Students get more attention and sounds like what Zac may prefer.

In my prior post, I mention 11th grade is the time to prep the missing EC's.  Here are some leadership suggestions.  If Zac is already in a club, consider running for an officer position.   Even he he does not get elected, show interest and may be elected next year.  If not in a club, not to late to join and run for officer position next  year.  He can also start a new club of his own (but need to start early in the school year). Find out what is needed to start a new club, application deadlines, find teacher sponsor, find friend with similar interest, poster around school for meeting...).  How about a club for Electronic Games?

One more reason why college visit is important.  Many school application essay ask why XYZ University.  Visiting the school will help writing the essay.  On the topic of essay.  Start looking into how to write essays for college application.  We found them very different than the essay they write for classes.   

We went through this process in recent years and visited many colleges.  S1 graduated from UVA in May.  S2 is starting 2nd year this fall (also UVA).    We may give you more suggestions if we know more of Zac's stats and interests.  You can post your questions or PM me or you can post them on collegeconfidential.com  Glad to help.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 31, 2011)

Mel said:


> In this age when people change jobs every few years, I also disagree about your alma mater only mattering to get your foot in the door at that first job.  What Harvard, Yale, Duke, and the other "elite" schools offer is a network, to get you that foot in the door every time you change jobs.  DH is in the process of filling 3 positions, and they don't advertise everywhere.  The best candidates are not necessarily those who are local and would see the advertisements, but those who know about the positions because they were alerted by their college roommate who already works there.  Some of that networking is done within your industry after you graduate, but a significant portion of a good network is built during college.



Of course networks matter.  They always do.  My experience is that my Professional network is far more important than my University network and it isn't even close.  So, to the extent an elite University helps get that right first opportunity, you have a leg up in building that great Professional network.


----------



## Elan (Jul 31, 2011)

Mel said:


> In this age when people change jobs every few years, I also disagree about your alma mater only mattering to get your foot in the door at that first job.  What Harvard, Yale, Duke, and the other "elite" schools offer is a network, to get you that foot in the door every time you change jobs.  DH is in the process of filling 3 positions, and they don't advertise everywhere.  The best candidates are not necessarily those who are local and would see the advertisements, but those who know about the positions because they were alerted by their college roommate who already works there.  Some of that networking is done within your industry after you graduate, but a significant portion of a good network is built during college.



  So networks only exist at "elite" schools?  Only attendees of "elite" schools have roommates and classmates they keep in touch with?  What, exactly, are you saying?


----------



## BocaBum99 (Jul 31, 2011)

Elan said:


> So networks only exist at "elite" schools?  Only attendees of "elite" schools have roommates and classmates they keep in touch with?  What, exactly, are you saying?



I've never once got a good job lead from a former room mate.  I have, on the other hand, been offered many jobs or leads by CEOs or collegues I either worked for or with.


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## Elan (Jul 31, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> I've never once got a good job lead from a former room mate.  I have, on the other hand, been offered many jobs or leads by former CEOs I either worked for or with.



  I agree.  Were I looking to change jobs, I would have much better success turning to former professional colleagues than I would former schoolmates.   It wouldn't even be close in my profession due to the specialization of the work.

  Nonetheless, the implication that only attendees of "elite" schools network intrigues me.  The post just doesn't make any sense without further clarification.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Jul 31, 2011)

Elan said:


> I agree.  Were I looking to change jobs, I would have much better success turning to former professional colleagues than I would former schoolmates.   It wouldn't even be close in my profession due to the specialization of the work.
> 
> Nonetheless, the implication that only attendees of "elite" schools network intrigues me.  The post just doesn't make any sense without further clarification.



I think it could be the fact that certain companies are very clubby and hire only from within a select group of candidates even though others would be just as qualified.

Some examples include:  McKinsey and Co.  You have to earn an MBA or advanced degree from an elite University or you can't even get an interview.  Same was true at Bell Labs when I was there early in my career.  They only interviewed at top Universities.  Many financial institutions like Goldman Sachs are the same way.

Interestingly, though, once you get a job in one of those companies, the fact that you were there and did a great job matters more than where you went to school.

There is a reason why your University goes at the bottom of your resume.  It's just not that important unless you haven't done anything important yet or you are trying to get a job at that University.


----------



## Elan (Jul 31, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> I think it could be the fact that certain companies are very clubby and hire only from within a select group of candidates even though others would be just as qualified.
> 
> Some examples include:  McKinsey and Co.  You have to earn an MBA or advanced degree from an elite University or you can't even get an interview.  Same was true at Bell Labs when I was there early in my career.  They only interviewed at top Universities.  Many financial institutions like Goldman Sachs are the same way.
> 
> ...



  That's what I got out of it as well.  The "It's who you know (in it's more polite form ), not what you know" scenario.


----------



## NWL (Jul 31, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> I've never once got a good job lead from a former room mate.  I have, on the other hand, been offered many jobs or leads by CEOs or collegues I either worked for or with.





Elan said:


> I agree.  Were I looking to change jobs, I would have much better success turning to former professional colleagues than I would former schoolmates.   It wouldn't even be close in my profession due to the specialization of the work.
> 
> Nonetheless, the implication that only attendees of "elite" schools network intrigues me.  The post just doesn't make any sense without further clarification.





BocaBum99 said:


> I think it could be the fact that certain companies are very clubby and hire only from within a select group of candidates even though others would be just as qualified.
> 
> Some examples include:  McKinsey and Co.  You have to earn an MBA or advanced degree from an elite University or you can't even get an interview.  Same was true at Bell Labs when I was there early in my career.  They only interviewed at top Universities.  Many financial institutions like Goldman Sachs are the same way.
> 
> ...





Elan said:


> That's what I got out of it as well.  The "It's who you know (in it's more polite form ), not what you know" scenario.



At our "advance" ages, do any of us really have close relationships with our former classmates?   

It's all about who you know, when you know them, and the timing of your application.  Being in the right place at the right time is the key.  You never know when that will happen, so you just have to go for every opportunity.

Cheers!


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## lorenmd (Jul 31, 2011)

a very good site is college prowler.com.  ranking all kinds of things about the school by students.  many of you bring up great points.  we are all passionate about good things that happen to us in life and if our undergrad experience was good, we are passionate.  i went to large state school.  lots of debt, i'm a doctor now.  my oldest went to princeton, no debt but now at 26 still hanging around going to grad school with no sign of work in site. my middle two both went to cc in cali and then transferred to univ of cal, davis and ucla.  we'll see how they do. you don't quite get the college experience when you go to cc first.  my youngest will go ncaa div 1 so it is totally different for me.  i would love if she could go to an ivy, but she is not ivy material academically so it would not be good.  find the right fit socially, climate, distance, cost, and the major doesn't matter as much as people have said. good schools have adequate  majors in most fields.  a high achiever will reach. a lesser student needs more so a lesser student should be surrounded by high achievers to help.  all colleges have their party element, except maybe byu.  a good football program is important to a lot of kids because it is part of the whole experience.  now i will go look at some of those schools on the other side of the Mississippi, that is not in the northern part of the county.  so who knows anything about clemson?  they like my daughter.


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## Mel (Aug 1, 2011)

Elan said:


> So networks only exist at "elite" schools?  Only attendees of "elite" schools have roommates and classmates they keep in touch with?  What, exactly, are you saying?


I'm saying that those who attend elite colleges have aboost in developing their networks.  As Boca stated, the networking in college helps with the professional networking.

In some industries is often not just a matter of what you know, but who you know.  When you attend an elite school, you are more likely to know more "whos."  Perhaps your roommate's father is the CEO (and maybe he remembers taking you out to dinner a few times).  Maybe you learned something at those dinners that gives you an advantage during your interview.

Some of the same advantages apply to members of certain Fraternities (or secret societies).

The same would apply in the military for those who attended the various academies - ROTC and OCS produce some very good officers, but the cream of the crop come through the Service Academies.  It's as much about shared experience as networking for them.

Perhaps the greatest advantage seen with these types of networks is for those starting their own businesses - who don't have a professional network to depend on.  You want to start a "Facebook" or a "Google."  You can pitch your idea to as many banks as you want, but networking is how your idea is going to get off the ground,

FWIW, I did not attend an elite school, by my own choosing.  I was accepted, but ultimately chose a different path.  If I look at where by HS classmates are, and who is now most successful, it is generally those who attended the elite schools.  Part of the equation is the fact that they got into the elites in the first place, which suggests they were already on that track, but their connections from college has helped many of them get where they are today.


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## e.bram (Aug 1, 2011)

For myself the greatest benefit (besides a good education which you can get anywhere in 2011)of going to an "elite" school is enhanced self esteem . You know "I went to ******".


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## Zac495 (Aug 1, 2011)

davhu1 said:


> Ellen,
> 
> Others responded to where Case is.  Case has one of the best admission offices of all the colleges we visited.  Very personal.  Case students also follows up with post card and phone calls.  They also offer local interviews.
> 
> ...



these are some great suggestions. Wow.


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## davhu1 (Aug 2, 2011)

lorenmd said:


> ...so who knows anything about clemson?



Clemson is a very good state school, but not one of the top ones.   A friend's son graduated from Clemson this year, finishing a 5 year co-op program with a degree in systems engineering but still looking for a job (to me, that raise questions about job recruitment and the lack of job opportunities in the state because system engineering did very well this year.  He likes Clemson a lot and likes to stay in the area if he can get a job there.  May be this contributes to not able to get a job offer yet) .  He was accepted to in-state colleges but chose Clemson out-of-state for better fit.  Clemson offered him in-state tuition.  Heard the campus is very nice and weather is good.

There was a controversy a few years back that Clemson tried to manipulate the system for better rankings.  You can try google it for more info.  From memory, an example would be if there are 2 classes offered for the same course for 100 students, they may fill one with 20 and the other with 80 so that they claim x number of classes have less than 20 students, thus improving the faculty student ratio which is one of the factors in the USNews ranking.


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## BocaBum99 (Aug 2, 2011)

Once your kid takes the SAT and ACT tests, Universities start sending out post cards and collateral to encourage students to apply into their programs.  It's fun to see elite Universities requesting that your kid gives them a look.

Given this discussion, I found it extremely interesting that yesterday Yale and the University of Alabama sent my son some material regarding their programs.  I got a good laugh at that.


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## e.bram (Aug 2, 2011)

One of the most brilliant people I met did his undergraduate degree a Univ of Alabama(Phd at Hopkins). He was my graduate adviser at Princeton. Because of politics he did not get tenure ended up at the University of  Washington. Another professor(Dr. John Fenn) did not like the politics went to Yale and won a Nobel Prize. Go figure. Princeton's loss.


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## Ridewithme38 (Aug 2, 2011)

e.bram said:


> One of the most brilliant people I met did his undergraduate degree a Univ of Alabama(Phd at Hopkins). He was my graduate adviser at Princeton. Because of politics he did not get tenure ended up at the University of  Washington. Another professor(Dr. John Fenn) did not like the politics went to Yale and won a Nobel Prize. Go figure. Princeton's loss.



Sounds like more reason to go Ivy league to me! Win a Nobel Prize and don't have to worry about Tenure!


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## BocaBum99 (Aug 2, 2011)

e.bram said:


> One of the most brilliant people I met did his undergraduate degree a Univ of Alabama(Phd at Hopkins). He was my graduate adviser at Princeton. Because of politics he did not get tenure ended up at the University of  Washington. Another professor(Dr. John Fenn) did not like the politics went to Yale and won a Nobel Prize. Go figure. Princeton's loss.



We have a very good friend whose mother just won the National Medal of Science last year.  She went to Brooklyn College for her BA.  She did get her PhD at the University of Chicago.  Her son, our good friend, went to the University of Rochester.  He told us that he really wanted to go to Cornell, but didn't get accepted.  He ended up doing really well in college and getting his PhD. in Physics at Harvard, went on to become a Distinguished Member of Technical staff at Bell Labs.  He is now a professor at the University of Rochester.

What this tells you is that you do not need to attend an elite university as an undergrad to become very successful even in academia.  But, in looking up the bios of some famous people, if they don't make it there as an undergrad, many of them make it to one for graduate school.


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## Ridewithme38 (Aug 2, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> He told us that he really wanted to go to Cornell, but didn't get accepted.  He ended up doing really well in college and getting his PhD. in Physics at Harvard, went on to become a Distinguished Member of Technical staff at Bell Labs.  He is now a professor at the University of Rochester.
> 
> What this tells you



What this tells me that even those that do really well in college, even in mid-level ivy league schools like Harvard, are still stuck at state schools...Only the best of the best can teach Ivy league...this is why its so important for kids to go Ivy League...If this kid that did well at harvard had instead gone to some state school and done equally as well....It wouldn't matter, because that state school wasn't Ivy league


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## e.bram (Aug 2, 2011)

Ride:
Harvard mid level? What is a top Ivy school?


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## Ridewithme38 (Aug 2, 2011)

e.bram said:


> Ride:
> Harvard mid level? What is a top Ivy school?



Sorry, i meant Harvard is a Mid-level Ivy League School...It's still Ivy League it's just not quite Princeton or Yale...I'd put Harvard on the same level as like Dartmouth or Brown, MAYBE Columbia

It used to be in the top three...but things have changed in the last 15 or so years...they tend to let Anyone in now


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## Carol C (Aug 2, 2011)

Zac495 said:


> I can't believe I spent today looking at colleges with my son. He's going into 11th so it's a little early -but it felt right. We saw Pitt and Carnegie Mellon today.
> 
> Are the private colleges (like Carnegie) really going to give a kid a HUGE boost over a very good college like Pitt?
> 
> ...



CMU is known as a tech incubator thus a good bet if your son is majoring in computer tech, engineering, biotech and such. Pitt is a good all-round university and especially good if your son is interested in a medical career, as Pitt excels as a teaching hospital. I think his interests and likely major should be your first concern...then the cost. That's how I approached it (and I was accepted at all the Pittsburgh area colleges/universities I applied to...and ultimately I went with the one offering the best financial aid package.)


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## pranas (Aug 2, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Sorry, i meant Harvard is a Mid-level Ivy League School...It's still Ivy League it's just not quite Princeton or Yale...I'd put Harvard on the same level as like Dartmouth or Brown, MAYBE Columbia
> 
> It used to be in the top three...but things have changed in the last 15 or so years...they tend to let Anyone in now



I doubt it Ride.


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## BocaBum99 (Aug 2, 2011)

There is a reason that the following acronym exists: HYPS.

Those 4 Universities are the generally accepted top 4 most prestigious undergraduate programs in the country.


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## BocaBum99 (Aug 2, 2011)

Ridewithme38 said:


> What this tells me that even those that do really well in college, even in mid-level ivy league schools like Harvard, are still stuck at state schools...Only the best of the best can teach Ivy league...this is why its so important for kids to go Ivy League...If this kid that did well at harvard had instead gone to some state school and done equally as well....It wouldn't matter, because that state school wasn't Ivy league



What this says is you make poorly thought out statements without knowing what you are talking about.

My friend teaches at the University of Rochester simply because he wanted to be near his mother and father who live in Rochester.  He could have been a professor anywhere given his credentials.  His mother is there because she worked at the Xerox Wilson Research Center.


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## dmbrand (Aug 2, 2011)

I haven't read this entire thread very thoroughly, but has someone mentioned this site yet:

College Confidential Forum

This message board is slanted towards the uber over achieving types, but it does provide some insight to the admission processes of some highly selective colleges.  Besides, it is somewhat entertaining, as well.

Having two in college at this moment in time at a tier 3 state school (the horror!), I feel confident that they will be well educated, find productive careers, and not be a burden to our current society.

I find that attending college geographically near the place one wants to be employed to be very beneficial.  Often, the internships and co-op opportunities can lead to employment.

Another point to consider is if the university is involved in research.  My son has been working alongside graduate students and a lead professor on a project that takes him to California this month to present at a conference.  All his work was done during freshman year, and he got paid!

Ellen, as involved with your children as you are, your son will be fine as long as you support his choice.


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## Zac495 (Aug 2, 2011)

We are at Penn State right now - tour tomorrow - but Zac does not like the feel of the campus. He much preferred the city feel of Pitt.

Anyone know if U of Delaware or U of Virginia or U of North Carolina have city feels or more like Penn State?


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## Zac495 (Aug 2, 2011)

davhu1 said:


> Ellen,
> 
> Others responded to where Case is.  Case has one of the best admission offices of all the colleges we visited.  Very personal.  Case students also follows up with post card and phone calls.  They also offer local interviews.
> 
> ...


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## Twinkstarr (Aug 2, 2011)

Zac495 said:


> davhu1 said:
> 
> 
> > Ellen,
> ...


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## heathpack (Aug 2, 2011)

Zac495 said:


> We are at Penn State right now - tour tomorrow - but Zac does not like the feel of the campus. He much preferred the city feel of Pitt.
> 
> Anyone know if U of Delaware or U of Virginia or U of North Carolina have city feels or more like Penn State?



I don't know anything about Pitt or Penn State. 

University of NC is in a small college town.  All students live on campus the first year and then most (many?) in off campus housing thereafter.  That means that if you go to school there you will probably live in the town, not just on-campus.  So try to see a little bit of the town as well as the campus itself.  The town has a great music scene, lots of restaurants, and is very walkable.

H


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## davhu1 (Aug 2, 2011)

Zac495 said:


> UVA near william and mary?  Zac doesn't want to be in a small school - yet he says CM is his top choice. My head is spinning. I don't feel as though I am going to be of any help to him.



UVA is in Charlottesville.  William & Mary is in Williamsburg, about 2 hour east of Charlottesville.  Charlottesville is a small city and considered suburban.  There is a lot more to do around Charlottesville than University Park.  

"Zac does not want small school."  Student or campus size?  May be he does not want small town.  This is part of the reason for making college visits.  Made a list of all the likes and don't likes for each college and analyzed them.  

Penn State is about 39,000 undergraduates [small town on 8,600 acre] 
UVA  ~16,000 [suburban on 1,200 acre]
CM ~6,000 [urban on 144 acre]
W&M ~5,800 [small town on 1,200 acre]


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## jmatias (Aug 3, 2011)

Enjoying this thread.  Our boys will be starting 10th and 8th grade and we are starting our "journey" into finding the right college.

Finding the information helpful.

Aloha,
Jen


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## laurac260 (Aug 3, 2011)

ampaholic said:


> Does a Harvard Degree have value
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I believe this was a valid study for it's time, however I think enough has changed to make this study somewhat dated and less relevant to today's economy, job market, etc. IMHO

---------------

Sorry, my editing abilities on an iPhone leave much to be desired.


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## laurac260 (Aug 3, 2011)

If your son is brilliant have him go to Ohio state.  Lord knows we need to amp up our academic stature now that the rug has been pulled out from under our football team!


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## ScubaKat (Aug 3, 2011)

We lived in Charlottesville, VA for 12 years and now we are in tar heels territory next to UNC... Definitely not city feel for either one of the campuses..  Both are really nice university towns with Chapel Hill having a lot more to do around the area.

My parents paid for our whole collage tuition and I knew I was going to grad school.  Grad school was more important to me and we believed the end education was what is usually looked at going into the job market...  I was accepted at UVA, UNC and NC State but I chose a solid undergrad (JMU) which was fun and lighter on my parent's wallet and went to a nice grad school (Hopkins).. 



Zac495 said:


> We are at Penn State right now - tour tomorrow - but Zac does not like the feel of the campus. He much preferred the city feel of Pitt.
> 
> Anyone know if U of Delaware or U of Virginia or U of North Carolina have city feels or more like Penn State?


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## davhu1 (Aug 3, 2011)

laurac260 said:


> Originally Posted by ampaholic:  Does a Harvard Degree have value? Using 1997-98...I guess size, er quality does matter.
> 
> I believe this was a valid study for it's time, however I think enough has changed to make this study somewhat dated and less relevant to today's economy, job market, etc. IMHO



Not sure that the study is even valid.  The study is done by someone from Ivy.  Would someone from Ohio State doing the same study come up with the same conclusion?  Data can be manupulated to a different conclusion.  College major, location and economy make big difference:

Here are some data within my own family and does it tell me an ivy education is not worth the money?  I really cannot conclude from this because the kids who went to state school are in high demand majors.

Kid #1 (female) - Graduated from Columbia 1999 with degree in communication and education.  Salary ~$36,000 public relation

Kid #2 (female) - Rutgers 1996 / business / ~$85,000 manager marketing

Kid #3 (female) - Binghamton 1999 / accounting / ~$62,000 accountant

Kid #4 (male) - UVA 2011 / Engineering  / ~$58,000 engineering

Kid #5 (female) UVA 2011 / Business / $55,000 business IT


Comparing the engineering curriculum and facilities at Cornell, UPenn, and UMichigan during college visits,  I go to UMchigan any day.  Is the ivy worth the money?  It depends...


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## davhu1 (Aug 3, 2011)

Zac495 said:


> We are at Penn State right now - tour tomorrow - but Zac does not like the feel of the campus. He much preferred the city feel of Pitt.



Don't forget the creamery.


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## wauhob3 (Aug 4, 2011)

Oh my, some pretty intense posts on here and I only made it to page three. I will have to read the rest of tonight. To the OP my daughter will be a freshman this fall. The college search is an interesting one and we found it a bit nerve whacking but enjoyable. I let my daughter apply to everywhere she wanted. We visited most of them but a few I said we will visit if the financial packages are reasonable. She was accepted everywhere she applied save one but the financial packages varied a great deal. In the end due to afford-ability she had four very affordable but diverse universities who ended up significantly less then the others. She narrowed it down to two polar opposite schools. Purdue and St. Mary's. After scholarships and grants they were very close in price despite St. Mary's list price being twice that of Purdue's in state tuition. She chose St. Mary's despite many friends going to Purdue and her dismay at St. Marys being an all girls. It fit her the best, she was in IB in high school so participating in class has always been very important and something hard to do in the large freshman classes at Purdue. St. Marys shares all the same clubs with Notre Dame and she can take classes at Notre Dame starting in her Sophomore year so the socialization is available. I definitely believe she chose wisely. 

During the campus visits though schools that were at the top of her wish list suddenly held no interest and others she fell in love with. It also matters a great deal what your major is especially if it is in science or engineering. (Not by daughter's field.) Some of her classmates were accepted to the university they wanted as a general student but not the program they wanted. To me if you want to be an engineer but you can't get into the program then you need to change schools. Some schools are very well known for certain programs and not others.

As far as getting in being well rounded is important. For the top schools 4.0 GPA is no guarantee especially when not attending a private feeder school. SAT and ACT scores are much more important then GPA as long as you still have a good GPA. My daughter hurt her GPA in Sophomore year but the other three years were good and she received higher scholarships then her friends that had a higher GPA but didn't score as high in the SAT. If you are looking at a top university and you aren't a legacy student you are expected to already be bringing high GPA and test scores to the table so it becomes what else do you have to offer and what can you bring to the school that may fill a gap they have. 

Good luck and no you are not starting early. We did our first campus visit when she was a sophomore. They apply fall of senior year and most college acceptance letters arrive near Christmas. I found the most anxious part was waiting for the financial packages to come in. You get told about straight up scholarships often at acceptance but others you have to wait for and some grants are available due to financial need and others have a mixture of grant and scholarship. Some universities give initial scholarships and then you have to compete for others on campus. They are all very different from one another especially if they aren't state universities.


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## davhu1 (Aug 4, 2011)

*America's Top Colleges 2011*

This came out today.  I extracted a few paragraphs.  You can read the whole article here:

http://shine.yahoo.com/event/backtoschool/americas-top-colleges-2011-2518517/

Our annual ranking of the 650 best undergraduate institutions focuses on the things that matter the most to students: quality of teaching, great career prospects, graduation rates and low levels of debt. Unlike other lists, we pointedly ignore ephemeral measures such as school “reputation” and ill-conceived metrics that reward wasteful spending. 

Williams College (#1), Princeton University (#2) which boasts nearly nonexistent student debt rates due to one of the most generous financial aid programs in the nation. 

Outside of Princeton and Harvard (#6), Ivy League schools fare relatively poorly, suggesting that their reputations might be a bit overblown.  Yale (#14), Brown (#21) and Dartmouth (#30) crack the top 5%, but the other Ivies – Columbia (#42), Cornell (#51) University of Pennsylvania (#52) -- do not.

Because of our emphasis on financial prudence, the zero-cost military service academies rank highly.  

The highest ranked public school is the University of Virginia (#46) followed closely by the College of William and Mary (#49) and UCLA (#55).


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## e.bram (Aug 4, 2011)

Guess where Forbes(and his father) went to school.


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## puppymommo (Aug 4, 2011)

We are going through this, too.  DD starts her senior year August 16.  She is doing the International Baccalaureate program and is in the top 10% of her class. (Down from top 5% due to a B she received on a health/PE class.  

We have done 3 college visits: Washington University (St. Louis), Northwestern, and University of California at Santa Cruz (my alma mater).
She was never really interested in UCSC, but we were in CA this summer and visited it along with my niece who is an incoming junior.

She would be happy attended either Wash U or Northwestern.  But I am concerned, as both of these schools are extremely competitive in admissions and very expensive.  

I am encouraging her to find a third choice as her "safety school".  There are a number of fine state universities here in Missouri, but she has turned up her nose at them.  She also doesn't want to go too far from home so the Eastern colleges are out.


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## vacationhopeful (Aug 4, 2011)

puppymommo said:


> .. (Down from top 5% due to a B she received on a health/PE class..



Health/PE --- why are these even being graded with a full letter grade vs P/F? Do they give a AP class in PE, too? As an IB, when do the European students do GYM? If I remember my exchange HS French kids, it was _LIKE NEVER_. I know my one niece who was loading up HS credits to do 4 years in a 3 year time frame, she took swimming at the Junior College to met the HS PE requirement. She so hated HS, Middle School and elementary school -- and Junior college. Hated them all. She is entering a PhD in Oregon this month and she did like her last 2 years of college.


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## puppymommo (Aug 4, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> Health/PE --- why are these even being graded with a full letter grade vs P/F? ... I know my one niece who was loading up HS credits to do 4 years in a 3 year time frame, she took swimming at the Junior College to met the HS PE requirement.



This was actually an online course in health that she took to fulfill an elective PE requirement, so that she would be able to do the IB plus take Show Choir (nothing like Glee!) 
Basically she ran out of time and did not finish reading the book, so she bombed on the final.

I do think health and physical fitness are important and should be emphasized.  But with the high stress level of high school education these days (particularly for the top students) it is sometimes frustrating/difficult to fulfill these non-academic requirements. Another one: personal finance. Actually another important topic, but the kids end up just going through the motions to complete it.  It would really help to have this type of non-academic class be pass/fail.  Heck, my whole college career was pass/fail (UC Santa Cruz in its experiemental days) and it didn't hurt me at all.  I was still able to complete three graduate degrees.


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## vacationhopeful (Aug 4, 2011)

puppymommo said:


> .. Heck, my whole college career was pass/fail (UC Santa Cruz in its experiemental days) and it didn't hurt me at all.



Wow, I went to one of _those colleges_, too. I did 15 months P/F and returned to my original university. I refused to graduate from that alledged college. Last year (2010), the experimental college was 'decommissioned' after 41 years .... with the last freshman admitted class graduating. My major was a serious one where the faculty REFUSE to move the department offices onsite, tried to keep the actual undergraduate classes from being taught there (graduate classes not part of the undergraduate college), and was placed in this college, to help the students get a job. I still tell stories about living 9 months in the one dorm - basicly, my BF who did 9 months in the jungle shooting a m16 stayed 2 nights with me and then moved me to his parent's house (the separate bedroom enforcement zone). Armed campus police and local police would NOT answer or patrol the campus, IF it was after dusk. And I was in the FIRST graduating class in 1973, newly built campus, in the burbs, on the closed army base called Camp Kilmer.


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## Rene McDaniel (Aug 4, 2011)

wauhob3 said:


> For the top schools 4.0 GPA is no guarantee especially when not attending a private feeder school. SAT and ACT scores are much more important then GPA as long as you still have a good GPA. My daughter hurt her GPA in Sophomore year but the other three years were good and she received higher scholarships then her friends that had a higher GPA but didn't score as high in the SAT. If you are looking at a top university and you aren't a legacy student you are expected to already be bringing high GPA and test scores to the table so it becomes what else do you have to offer and what can you bring to the school that may fill a gap they have.



Candace,
That is what we are hearing from colleges, as well.  The competition is fierce, and all the kids seem to have straight A's, lots of AP classes, strong extra-curriculars, hours & hours of community service, & excellent test scores.

My daughter is finding out that although it is easy-enough to stand out in her high school, it's not so easy to stand out "nationally".  There are literally thousands ASB presidents, straight-A's, high SAT score students who also want to go to Stanford, UC Berkeley, UCLA, U of Penn, U of Chicago, Georgetown, etc.  Not even talking Harvard, Princeton, Yale!

My daughter (who wants to major in Poli Sci) thought she was looking good because she spent 4 months as a student intern (unpaid) working in our local US Congressman's office last year.  This week she talked to a girl (also going into 12th grade), who is spending the summer working as a student intern in her Congressman's office in Washington, DC.  Wow!  How does a high school kid pull off living & interning (unpaid) in DC for two months?

The kids my daughter knows from Youth & Government (it's a national program through the YMCA) are amazing.  She's got friends who have received full-ride scholarships to U of Penn, Georgetown, Princeton, and Stanford starting this Fall.

On the plus side, her exposure to them has made her reach higher, work harder, than she ever would have done on her own going to a large public high school in suburbia.  The negative side -- dang, it's competitive.  I had no idea.  Our oldest daughter had a 2.5 gpa, & we were happy just to get acceptance letters so that she had a choice of 3 different California State colleges (back in the day).  She's married with kids now, but started back to college again last year to finish her MSW.

It will be interesting to see what letters of acceptance/scholarships youngest daughter will receive.  Her wish list is already long, and just this week she added the University of Chicago, and took off Grinnell and Oberlin.  Excellent schools, but they were just too remote for her.  She's a city girl.  

--- Rene


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## Rene McDaniel (Aug 4, 2011)

*How Extra-Curriculars are scored*

_  FYI -- A while back someone from the college confidential website, posted a list showing how the Admissions Dept. scores extra-curricular activities (EC's) at the UC Davis. 
--- Rene _ 

"Here's an example of how U of California-Davis weighs ECs as part of its point system for admissions. (Thanks, Xiggi, who posted this in March in the Parents' Forum). This probably is typical of how competitive (but not the most competitive) colleges weigh ECs. Places like HPYS would have a much higher standard.

*LEADERSHIP PROMISE:*

Leadership promise is measured by an applicant's involvement in extracurricular activities at their school, community or home. Three or more are required.

*Points: *Three or more leadership roles that demonstrate one's capacity to direct or influence the course of an activity/organization or the action of others -- in activities at school, in the community or at home. Must show consistent participation (i.e., A school year or sport season) or some indication of achievement. Examples:
• Chief or section editor of school newspaper or yearbook
• Team captain
• Section leader in the school band, drum major, conductor
• Director, stage manager or choreographer of a school play
• Student body or class officer
• President or vice president of team/club or volunteer organization
• Representative to the school board, city council or area representative for a community organization
• Mock trial officer or delegate to a regional or larger conference
• Girls/boys state or national delegate
• Model UN head delegate or junior statesman delegate to regional or higher level conference; undersecretary or general secretary
• Leadership role in Girl/Boys Scouts, Sea Scout, Quarter Master
• Life Scout/Silver Award, Eagle Scout/Gold Award (received or in progress)
• 4-H Diamond Star or All-star; 4-H Teen Leader, national conference team member; state ambassador
• Link crew team leader
• Peer trainer or mediator
• Lead person in a major activity, such as a fund-raising drive, cultural activity or tutoring program
• Youth educator in community activities such as Sunday school teacher or coach
• Participation in highly selective leadership program
• Parental role at home as primary care giver or major wage earner

*No points*
• Member of club, organization or sport team
• Lower officer of non-selective club
• Volunteer for community organization
• Tutor
• Junior Statesman participant
• Future Business Leaders of America
• Model UN participant
• Teaching assistant
• Habitat for Humanity volunteer
• School Accreditation Review Team
• Link Crew member
• Mexicali Missions project volunteer
• 4-H star ranks bronze-gold
• Umpire, referee or lifeguard (unless description in personal statement satisfies leadership definition)
*
SPECIAL TALENTS AND SKILLS:*
A special talent or skill involves substantial participation or exceptional performance in the arts, sciences, languages, athletics, etc. that demonstrates hard work and accomplishment.
*
Points:* Persistent involvement in two activities for 3 years each, resulting in distinguished recognition at the school or higher level or representing outstanding effort and dedication in the community; or long-term involvement in one activity resulting in recognition at the state level or the right to compete at the national level. Examples:
• Debate tournament winner
• Speech or essay contest winner (Forensic awards)
• Dance/music award winner
• Lead in school play
• 1st chair in school band/orchestra or beyond
• Sports -- All league 1st team, athlete of the year, league MVP; state or national
• State or national level championship team
• Academic Decathlon winner
• National Merit semifinalist or finalist
• 4-H Emerald Star; Presentation Day winner in regional or state competition
• FFA champion or reserve champion award
• FFA regional, state or national proficiency awards
• Model UN best delegate
• Mock trial individual award at regional level; team award at state level
• Participation in a highly selective program such as the National Science Foundation Young Scholar's Program, COSMOS, etc.
• Extended involvement or experience in another culture or one's own culture, representing outstanding effort and enabling the student to contribute knowledge to the educational experience. Examples: Proficiency in a language other than English that is used to serve the community or study in non-English speaking communities or countries where the student plans to work. Proficiency in traditional cultural skills and talents.
• Year-round employment or volunteer work of 12+ hours per week where work is skilled and demonstrates responsibility such as writing articles for newspaper, computer programming, Web design, etc.

*No points:* 
Continuous involvement in activities but no distinguished recognition is received.
• Continuous long-term music lessons
• Awards for Golden State Academic Exams
• Who's Who
• CSF
• Presidential award for academic and physical fitness
• National Merit commended or scholar
• Model UN commended performance
• Honorable mention awards
• Participation in non-selective summer programs
• Academic decathlon participant
• Recognition for good performance
• Honor roll
• School most valuable player
• Most improved player
• Coach's award
• Varsity letter(s)
• Congressional award
• Member of a championship team unless at state or higher level
• Pages for state or national senate or assembly
*
PERSONAL DIFFICULTIES & PERSEVERANCE:*
This is based on a reading of the personal statement for documentation of the applicant's ability to persist and overcome unusual, seemingly insurmountable difficulties or challenges which may have affected the applicant's ability to achieve full academic potential during middle or high school.

*Points:*
We strongly consider factors over which the student has little or no control and which are inevitably linked to the student's academic achievement. Difficulties and challenges usually involve multiple factors, such as:
• A history of low income
• Adverse home environment
• Unusual family disruption
• Drug, physical and mental abuse
• Unusual medical/emotional problems
• Frequent change of schools (3 or more high schools)
• Lack of exposure to appropriate role models
• Adverse immigration experience within the past five years
• English as a second language
• Assumption of role as primary caretaker of the family
• Unusual disruption in school, residential or tribal community (e.g., long-term school strikes, widespread natural disasters, etc.)
• Active discouragement or severe lack of support from family or school personnel

*No points*
Isolated events of short duration that have little or no effect on the student's academic development, such as:
• Short-term illness such as a broken leg, flu
• Short-term adverse incidents (e.g., short-term closure of school due to inclement weather, short-term absences from school to care for a family member, etc.)
Situations or circumstances that the student is capable of changing but did not do so.
• Unfocused student
• Dislike of school and teachers
• Elective trips and vacations during the school year
• Elective employment
• Elective community, social, recreational and other extracurricular activities."


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## vacationhopeful (Aug 4, 2011)

Rene McDaniel said:


> _  FYI -- A while back someone from the college confidential website, posted a list showing how the Admissions Dept. scores extra-curricular activities (EC's) at the UC Davis.
> --- Rene _
> 
> "Here's an example of how U of California-Davis weighs ECs as part of its point system for admissions. (Thanks, Xiggi, who posted this in March in the Parents' Forum). This probably is typical of how competitive (but not the most competitive) colleges weigh ECs. Places like HPYS would have a much higher standard..
> ...



Are they kidding? No wonder why "good, normal kids" are having a difficult time getting into top schools. Parents who do everything possible to provide a stable and supportive environment for their kids are getting MINUS points because they obey the law, feed & cloth their children, and teach responsibility thru word & action, receive a lower score because they don't have a bleeding heart story to tell the admissions staff.:annoyed: 

Ask Lehigh University how that policy worked after the freshman girl was murdered in her dorm by her smart classmate, whose background had been "cleansed" due to his hard life story and multiple arrests.


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## Mel (Aug 4, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> Are they kidding? No wonder why "good, normal kids" are having a difficult time getting into top schools. Parents who do everything possible to provide a stable and supportive environment for their kids are getting MINUS points because they obey the law, feed & cloth their children, and teach responsibility thru word & action, receive a lower score because they don't have a bleeding heart story to tell the admissions staff.:annoyed:
> 
> Ask Lehigh University how that policy worked after the freshman girl was murdered in her dorm by her smart classmate, whose background had been "cleansed" due to his hard life story and multiple arrests.


I suspect they don't simply count a difficult backgound in an of itself, but the effort to overcome that difficult background.  The student who perseveres and does well in school despite administrators who insist she will never mount to much (this would have fit my own DD when she was in 5th grade).  It's not the bleeding heart story that gets the points, but the story of how the student worked hard and didn't let it get in his or her way.  You have two applicants who are otherwise equal, but one was homeless all the way through high school - which would you choose?  Which one probably had to work harder?

It's no different regarding GPA too.  Would you rather the student who got an A+ in a general level classed with the 4.0 GPA, or the student who took AP classes with the 3.6 weighted average?  That would be a B in those AP classes in our HS.


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## e.bram (Aug 4, 2011)

I don't care what Forbes says. If not Ivy League. MIT, Cal Tech or Stanford , then go anywhere, it doesn't matter.


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## pianodinosaur (Aug 4, 2011)

Forbes just posted its 2011 listing of America's Top Colleges.

http://www.forbes.com/top-colleges/

I hope you find this information useful.


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## lprstn (Aug 4, 2011)

I believe the name of the college is only important depending on the major. Truth is some of computer engineers I work with everyday who pull in rather nice salaries - don't even have a degree. Not only that, my friend who is a Physician's Assistant went to community college, then a state college and paid the big bucks for the Master's degree. In the end, it depends on where the student and the parent believes the child will be successful. Also, I told my kid that their career should be in line with the school. If you want to be a teacher, don't pay 42K a year for a degree which your career will never be able to pay off (if you have to take out loans.) My kids do, because I have 4 kids, both of us paid our way through school and we personally believe that going to college is a privilege not a right.

Now my son's path is pretty much free. But my daughter has her eyes set on John's Hopkins since she wants to be a doctor. I'm encouraging her to save the $$ on the undergrad degree since Medical School is so expensive.


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## Zac495 (Aug 4, 2011)

Rene McDaniel said:


> _  FYI -- A while back someone from the college confidential website, posted a list showing how the Admissions Dept. scores extra-curricular activities (EC's) at the UC Davis.
> --- Rene _
> 
> "Here's an example of how U of California-Davis weighs ECs as part of its point system for admissions. (Thanks, Xiggi, who posted this in March in the Parents' Forum). This probably is typical of how competitive (but not the most competitive) colleges weigh ECs. Places like HPYS would have a much higher standard.
> ...



Depressing...


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## Luanne (Aug 4, 2011)

Zac495 said:


> Depressing...



And that list is for UC Davis, which is part of the California University systerm.  You know, the schools that are sort of supposed to take everyone.


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## e.bram (Aug 4, 2011)

Going to an "elite" school is like buying Gucci or Prada accessories. Not necessarily better, but people buy them and show off. That has some value too(apparently)


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## e.bram (Aug 4, 2011)

Some majors might make admission easier. Such as math, physics and engineering.


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## Rene McDaniel (Aug 6, 2011)

From The New York Times (August 5, 2011):

*For a Standout College Essay, Applicants Fill Their Summers*
_
Students preparing to apply to college are increasingly tailoring their summer plans with the goal of creating a better personal statement._

http://nyti.ms/mUkKpg


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## BocaBum99 (Aug 6, 2011)

Rene McDaniel said:


> From The New York Times (August 5, 2011):
> 
> *For a Standout College Essay, Applicants Fill Their Summers*
> _
> ...



How do you tell the difference between resume padders and truly outstanding candidates?


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## LisaH (Aug 6, 2011)

Luanne said:


> And that list is for UC Davis, which is part of the California University systerm.  You know, the schools that are sort of supposed to take everyone.



UC system is quite messed up in admission this year. I know a kid who got into USC and Rhode Island School of Design but got rejected by all top UCs (Berkeley, UCLA, UCSD). Another one got into Northwestern and Berkeley but got rejected by UCLA, UCSD, and UC Davis. Both have stellar SAT scores and above 4.0 GPA. Totally does not make sense.


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## Mel (Aug 6, 2011)

LisaH said:


> UC system is quite messed up in admission this year. I know a kid who got into USC and Rhode Island School of Design but got rejected by all top UCs (Berkeley, UCLA, UCSD). Another one got into Northwestern and Berkeley but got rejected by UCLA, UCSD, and UC Davis. Both have stellar SAT scores and above 4.0 GPA. Totally does not make sense.



Given the number of students applying to less expensive schools, it's not that surprising.  Though the UC system has 10 campuses, which ones get the most applications?  Which ones are more well known away from the west coast?

Both of these students may have had something specific going for them that got them into some schools, but which was of less value to the admissions staff at the other schools.  Sometimes it comes down to a specific need, like someone who plays the Oboe.  

Also, I don't know how the UC system works, but some schools compare applicant pools, and you are not likely to be accepted to more than one.  UC does state on their website, however, that if you are accepted to one school, you can attend another if there is space - I wouldn't be surprised if they try to offer acceptance to the one school they feel is the best fit for their needs.


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## Rene McDaniel (Aug 7, 2011)

LisaH said:


> Another one got into Northwestern and Berkeley but got rejected by UCLA, UCSD, and UC Davis. Both have stellar SAT scores and above 4.0 GPA. Totally does not make sense.



Yes, I read about this new trend.  A lesser college (No-Name-U) sees that this same kid is also applying to Prestigous U, and expects they will be admitted to Prestigous U.  So, since No-Name-U does not want to **waste** an acceptance on a kid who probably will choose Prestigous U -- they send the kid a rejection letter.  Everyone is left wondering, how did Tommy Terriffic get accepted at Princeton & Berkeley (they are both competing for this kid), but rejected at both No-Name-U and No-Name-College?  

That's the new wierd trend happening, and I read that it's being driven by all the College Rankings - Princeton Review Top 100 etc.  All the colleges want to make themselves look selective by getting as many applicants as possible, and rejecting as many as possible.  For the applicants they send that admission letter to -- they really believe there is a good chance they will, in fact, COME to the school.  If not, they feel they've **wasted** an admission.

How do they KNOW where else the applicant has applied??  Sneaky rascals.

I've heard 2 different ways, and I don't know which is actually true.  One was that the FASFA report (everyone submits for financial aid or scholarships) will list at the bottom the name of all the colleges the applicant is reqesting the FASFA form be sent to.  The other way I heard colleges know is where you are applying somehow comes through on the test score information sent from the College Board (SAT scores/ACT scores, etc).  Either way -- it's a shame the colleges have some secret access to know every college each kid is applying to.  

They should be evaluating each kid on their own merits, not where else are they applying?  As if this whole college admissions stuff isn't already complex enough!!   AAArrrrrggghhh!

--- Rene


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## davhu1 (Aug 7, 2011)

LisaH said:


> UC system is quite messed up in admission this year. I know a kid who got into USC and Rhode Island School of Design but got rejected by all top UCs (Berkeley, UCLA, UCSD). Another one got into Northwestern and Berkeley but got rejected by UCLA, UCSD, and UC Davis. Both have stellar SAT scores and above 4.0 GPA. Totally does not make sense.



"Tufts Syndrome".  Well known for Tufts University to rejecting well qualified applicants on basis they are likely to an ivy (of course colleges denies it).  This affects their yield which lead to lower ranking.  

Every spring, the Washington Post has a similar article on how stellar students are rejected for admission.  Some students do not really understand the process and put all their eggs in one basket (applying only to a few schools thinking they are well qualified and and end up with no offers when April comes.)


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## cgeidl (Aug 8, 2011)

*The person going to college should decide!!*

It seems parents are taking over the decision making regarding what college the student will attend. This seems to be a decision that should mainly be made by the student with the parents explaining the support they can give and assisitng in answering questions.
When I turned 18 my father explained he would not give a nickle toward me attending college.I had taken a test for an NROTC scholarship and low and behold even with my less than mediocre grades passed the test and received a scholarship as an alternate. They got to my name on the alternate list and gave me a choice of 25 or so colleges where the quota was still not filled. I knew little about any of them and made my selection by COMPASS. I wanted to go to the farthest college in the scolarship program from where I lived in Pittsburgh and swung the compass. The University of Idaho was the farthest and that was my decision.( One that I never regretted)Later in my senior year my father changed his mind somewhat and bought me my first car. 
It seems 18 year olds are entering military training and learning to make life and death decisions.

 I have several well off close friends who have taken over the decision making process almost entirely and have 30 to 40 year old children mostly supported entirely by them. And their forever children expect the support. They are happy non-workers.


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## Rene McDaniel (Aug 8, 2011)

cgeidl said:


> It seems parents are taking over the decision making regarding what college the student will attend.



Making the decision for the student - No.  
But handholding, and working through the process with the student - Yes, absolutely, yes!  Why not just dump the whole business on the student?  Well, whose money is being spent?  Who will be paying the $1,500 or $2,500 per month for the next 4 years?  The parent, not the student.  Certainly he who pays has a vested interest in helping the student find a college that is a good match for their interests, their abilities, and hopefully a place that they will receive some good financial aid or scholarships.

I cannot tell you how many young people I know who have selected a college, then after just ONE YEAR, didn't like it and ended up back at home.  Plugging away at community college for awhile, then eventually transferring to a local state college.  Some eventually getting their degree, some not. The big problem facing bounce-back kids is they are no longer eligible for the huge amounts of financial aid colleges reserve for graduating high school seniors.  So, getting any financial aid is much tougher, if not impossible, for them.  

My nephew in Los Angeles bounced back home after 1 year because it was too cold/depressing @ the snow-bound Minnesota (?) college where he had a full-ride ice hockey scholarship.  My husband's best friend's son bounced back after 1 year because he hated UC Irvine for whatever reason.  A different friends' son bounced back from elite-engineering school Harvey Mudd, because son decided he wanted to be in film/art/photography major, not an engineer, after all.

Tough love.  Sink or swim. Yeah! Easily said.  But I want this kiddo of mine to swim, not sink.  What does expertise does a 17-year old have in choosing colleges & cities across the US to live in?  None.  I think that for something as serious, as important, as expensive as a college decision -- two heads are definitely better than one.

I agree with you that ultimately, the child should choose the college.  They are the ones who will go there, live there, and do 100% of all the work once they get there.  Not me.  But I am actively involved bringing colleges that would be a good fit to her attention, or pointing out any potential pitfalls of others.  She still looks at things on the surface.  I try to be the one asking the below-the-surface, second level questions.  For example, at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, you must declare your major going in -- and it is very, very difficult to change your major there.  Not a good match for my daughter.  I suspect her current love of poli sci could change many times.  So, I want her to make sure she is in a college that offers her lots of options & opportunities to figure out what she loves.  There are actually a huge number of 4 year colleges that would allow her to do that.  It's just a question of which ones will offer her scholarship money, so that it will be affordable.

College admissions today is nothing like it was 10 years ago, when 1st daughter went.  And absolutely nothing like 30+ years ago, when I went to college.  To attend a state university here (University of California) the cost is now at $25,000 - $30,000/year, and the State is flat broke so there is no real scholarship money anymore.  That now puts thousands more families applying to the private colleges (with big endowments) as the only source of financial aid or scholarship money.

--- Rene


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## Mel (Aug 8, 2011)

Rene McDaniel said:


> Yes, I read about this new trend.  A lesser college (No-Name-U) sees that this same kid is also applying to Prestigous U, and expects they will be admitted to Prestigous U.  So, since No-Name-U does not want to **waste** an acceptance on a kid who probably will choose Prestigous U -- they send the kid a rejection letter.  Everyone is left wondering, how did Tommy Terriffic get accepted at Princeton & Berkeley (they are both competing for this kid), but rejected at both No-Name-U and No-Name-College?
> 
> That's the new wierd trend happening, and I read that it's being driven by all the College Rankings - Princeton Review Top 100 etc.  All the colleges want to make themselves look selective by getting as many applicants as possible, and rejecting as many as possible.  For the applicants they send that admission letter to -- they really believe there is a good chance they will, in fact, COME to the school.  If not, they feel they've **wasted** an admission.
> 
> ...


The Ivy League schools used to compare notes, and if you applied early and got into one of them, you didn't get into the others (back when early decision didn't mean a committment to go there).  MIT and Harvard used to share lists (and probably still do).  

Consider the kids who end up getting into the school of their choice because they didn't accept another student who probably would end up going there.  If they had accepted the other student, the one who really wanted to go there may have ended up wait listed, and might have accepted an offer elsewhere.  The job of the admission staff is to compose a complete freshman class.  Their job is to identify a group of students who they want, and who also really want them.  Given the cost of many schools, and their lack of financial aid, they are probably pretty good at predicting not only which students are likely to be accepted at more elite schools, but also which ones are not likely to pick their own school instead, due to financial aid (because with the aid packages, they will probably pay less for the more elite school).

Harvard and Yale may have a higher ticket price, but they also may provide more grants and less debt than a less expensive public university, and thus may end up costing less.  The state schools know this, and want to give the opportunity to the students who are not using them as a backup.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 8, 2011)

Another couple of warnings might be worth mentioning in this thread because most freshmen heading off to college are 18 or older, and some of their parents don't realize how "magical" that number is ...

First, credit card solicitors are all over campus and they use some enticing incentives to get your student signed up!  "Aren't you over 18?  Your parents don't have to co-sign or know anything about this."  "Do you need to earn some extra money?  You can sign up and then we'll put you to work soliciting your fellow students - it's a great way to meet new friends and each new card gets you a commission!"  When Steve went off to college we had no idea this sort of thing was readily available on campus; thank goodness we'd had a talk beforehand about how our financial support would end if he chose to take on unnecessary debt without telling us.  After a month he was shocked by the 3 fellow classmen who maxed out their new cards with cash advances that they promptly lost in the Friday night poker games.

Second, campus administration will not talk to parents about tuition and other fees, grades, schedules, health services etc ... unless your student signs the release that's distributed during student orientation.  We had no clue the release even existed until I had a question about when tuition bills would go out for second semester and the bursar's office would not tell me anything.  By that time it was a pain in the neck for Steve to track down a release, sign it and turn it in.  Stonehill's release covered every topic a parent might call about but we were only interested in the info from the bursar's office.  The following year when Eileen went off to UMass she got three different releases - financial, academic and health.  We asked her to sign the financial and health releases.  The only reason we wanted the health release was because Eileen had a medical history - thank goodness we did because she had a repeat seizure episode during junior year and without that release I would not have been able to follow her follow-up care on campus.  (Whatever other personal reasons they had for using Health Services weren't our business unless they wanted them to be.)  As far as the academic release, it was always up to them to contact their profs regarding grades - we demanded to know how well (or not!) they were doing, but refused to deal with profs because that was their responsibility.


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## hibbeln (Aug 9, 2011)

Ellen, I also have a son going in to 11th grade.  
Go look at your library/bookstore for books that are written FROM A STUDENTS POINT OF VIEW about various colleges.  Basically, the inside scoop kind of thing.  My son has read through 2 that we have practically non-stop, and it has been interesting to see how his thoughts on schools he THOUGHT he was interested in have change.  
For example, he thought he might be interested in U. Penn and U. of Chicago, but after reading about them immediately crossed them off his list.  They just didn't sound like his type of people.  Too "nerdy" for lack of a better word.  To the other extreme, he thought he might be interested in Penn State, but then after reading up on it felt the environment wasn't academic ENOUGH....."too much of a party atmosphere".  So that also got crossed off his list.  
It was interesting to see him start to realize that it wasn't just the university itself, but the total environment and the kind of students that are attracted.  It either is a "fit" for you, or it isn't.  Basically "these are people like me and I fit in" or not.  And when you're far away from home, it's good to feel like the people around you are a good fit and people you can easily be friends with!
As he narrowed things down, he realized he wanted the whole sort of "Big 10" college experience.  Football games on Saturday with everyone going, school colors, wonderful architecture, big campus, massive student body, delightful "college town" feel, a real feeling of energy and opportunity.  So that helped him cross all the smaller schools off his list.  For HIM those didn't feel right.  He didn't want anyplace small.  For others, what he finds desirable would be a nightmare for them.  So it's all in figuring out what you want.
Right now he has Univ. of  Michigan, Univ. of Wisconsin, UVA, and Univ. of Colorado Boulder on his short list.  All schools with a lot of school spirit, football tradition (yes, that matters to him!), and in wonderful towns and campuses filled with attractive architecture.  I totally understand, because I fell in love with (and went to) the Univ. of MI because I loved the architecture on the campus! (then I grew into a rabid football fan).
Last February we went to do a tour of Univ. of Colorado Boulder while out there skiing and were SO impressed!  He loved it!  Walked out with his eyes sparkling  and floating on a cloud.  It checked all his boxes and he said he just felt at ease on the campus.
One thing he's thinking is what his major will be.....he plans to get a PhD but is wavering between Biochemistry/Microbiology and International Relations (I know!  Totally different!).  For sciences, that moves WI, U-M and UC/B up on his list.  For social sciences WI drops off and UVA moves to the top.  UC/B has a great ability with the way it's set up to do double majors and vastly disparate fields, so that would mean he could look at getting 2 majors in the 2 fields he is interested in.
Also, look at what the undergrad experience is at the university and how dedicated the university is to MAKING THEIR UNDERGRADS SUCCESSFUL.  While I went to U-M and loved it, they really do focus a lot on the graduation education, and undergrads are often second class citizens (even though people fight tooth and nail and will sell their soul to get in there for undergrad).  If research is important in his field, how easy TRULY is it to do undergrad research?  Is undergrad research availlable in all fields, or just in the sciences?  Some universities are absolutely known more for their graduate programs than for their undergrad education.  Still a top-notch education, but are they missing out on the attention of the professors?  So my son is thinking that while he loves U-M, it might be better to go there for a PhD than for undergrad.
So anyway, a lot to think about!  But then I look at how little thought we all put into a college, and we all turned out OK!  Basically, if there is someplace that makes your son's eyes sparkle, then he will probably do well there because he is ENTHUSED and MOTIVATED! (probably the 2 most important factors in college success).
Where is your son interested, and what major is he considering?


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## e.bram (Aug 9, 2011)

If you go to an Ivy League school, 30 years from now you can I say "I am an"****** alumnus(a)" . Otherwise you have to say " I went to "******". It is  just as  good as "*****".


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## pianodinosaur (Aug 9, 2011)

I am very happy to learn how many Tuggers have children going to college.  It is much better to read about problems selecting the right college rather than about teenage drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, and criminal activities.  I would like to assume that all those precious family vacations helped you to raise such wonderful young adults.


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## wauhob3 (Aug 9, 2011)

Never mind I see it was just pot stirring after reading the threads.


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## wauhob3 (Aug 9, 2011)

puppymommo said:


> We are going through this, too.  DD starts her senior year August 16.  She is doing the International Baccalaureate program and is in the top 10% of her class. (Down from top 5% due to a B she received on a health/PE class.
> 
> We have done 3 college visits: Washington University (St. Louis), Northwestern, and University of California at Santa Cruz (my alma mater).
> She was never really interested in UCSC, but we were in CA this summer and visited it along with my niece who is an incoming junior.
> ...



I think she should apply to more schools then 3. A lot of my daughters friends applied to just a few and were unpleasantly surprised. In our state there is college go week where a lot of schools waive the application fee and others always have free apps on line. My daughter used the common app for some of them too. Unless you have high resources and can pay full price no matter where you daughter chooses to go it isn't just about where you get accepted but how much it will cost. It varies greatly between schools.


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## wauhob3 (Aug 9, 2011)

A good book for upcoming college freshmen is, _The Naked Roommate _and for the parents  _the Happiest Kid on Campus_. It is true that many don't make it at school and end up back home. They forget the reason why they are there and get to caught up in the social life or conversely they thought they automatically would have a ton of friends and feel isolated. Often its them doing the isolation behind the third wall of technology. Someone else posted about this and I agree with technology making it easy to keep in contact with family and friends it can be all to easy to not put yourself out there. 

We also pursued the college review books at Barnes and Noble (bought some) and this and on-line resources helped narrow some choices but the quickest way to narrow choices are the campus visits.


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## jlr10 (Aug 9, 2011)

Rene McDaniel said:


> From The New York Times (August 5, 2011):
> 
> *For a Standout College Essay, Applicants Fill Their Summers*
> _
> ...



DS went to Mississippi with his church youth group to do clean up after Katrina during spring break his sophmore year.  He learned quite the social lessons as well, as there were big differences between the lower income minority area where work was being done and his hometown, a fairly whitebread middle to upper middle class area.  He had a blast and worked hard, but also commented "This will look great on a college application don't you think?"  His social essay was on "If a city has to keep saying they are no longer segregated then chances are they still are."  He also used the trip for brownie points when meeting the parents of a girlfriend.  Yep.  He got a lot of use out of that trip


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## puppymommo (Aug 19, 2011)

*Picked her third choice school*

DD just came up with her 3rd college choice.  So far she had been set on Northwestern or Washington University here in St. Louis.  Both are extremely selective schools who accept less than 25% of applicants.  Their average ACT scores are in the 30s.  Tuition is over $40k a year.

I have been encouraging her to choose a "safety school" where she is sure she would be admitted and would be happy there if she does not get into the other two or get enough scholarship help to be able to attend.

Finally this week she came up with a viable alternative.  Seems her best friend is going to a state school about 2 hours from our home.  It is sort of a family thing for her.  So she and DD have been talking about rooming together.

This school is reasonably well thought of in the state.  Although it is not the most selective state school (they accept about 77% of applicants), it does have an "honors college" which offers smaller class size for certain courses and even has a honors dorm.

If DD applies, based on her academic record, she would be guaranteed admission to the honors college with a scholarship of $5k per year.  If she gets her ACT score up by one point, she is eligible for a $12k scholarship, which is almost a full ride!

While I have some concerns about class size at such a large university (17,000 undergrads) and that she might be bored, DD has a different perspective.  She has taken the most rigorous program possible in high school (her choice) and has been under alot of stress.  She is concerned that if she attends one of the highly selective unversitites, the atmosphere will be too competitive and intense.  

She claims she is not overly influenced by the fact that her best friend is going there.  (They would room together.)  Actually I can't say anything about it because I attended a university where one of my best friends AND my sister were attending.  We had virtually no classes together and since we were living at opposite ends of the campus, we did not see each other every day. But I knew they were there!

So, it would be hypocritical for me to say, "you can't go to the same college as your best friend"!

Truly I think DD will do fine wherever she goes.  I know she doesn't need a "name" college to succeed in life.

She and I are very close, so the separation will be hard on us both, but she is ready to go away to school, even though she will only be 17 when she starts her senior year.

Thanks to everyone who shared their wisdom and experience on this thread!


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## BocaBum99 (Aug 19, 2011)

We just returned from our East Coast University tour.  It was an excellent trip.  My son got a lot out of it.  He now has visited over 25 Universities and heard their admissions process, student life, academics and toured the campuses.  It helped immensely.  Every night before every University, we did online research and validated what we learned from research by talking to people at the Universities.

He's locked and loaded.  Has his 10 Universities picked out for application.  He has all his standardized tests done and simply needs to apply.  Given the restrictions on early admission/early action applicants, he will probably on apply early to 2-3 Universities.  If he gets into one, he's going.

My biggest takeaway is the elite Universities provide needs based financial aid.  If you have a talented kid, just apply to the best schools that meet their needs, financial aid should be there.  As Mel said, the top Ivy's provide grant based financial aid more than work-study or loans.  That is fantastic.


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## BocaBum99 (Aug 19, 2011)

e.bram said:


> If you go to an Ivy League school, 30 years from now you can I say "I am an"****** alumnus(a)" . Otherwise you have to say " I went to "******". It is  just as  good as "*****".



You have repeated yourself over and over again with the same line.  I went to USC and Columbia.  If I had to remove one of those experiences from my life, it would be Columbia.  I am a lifelong USC Trojan alumnus and proud of it.


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## BocaBum99 (Aug 19, 2011)

puppymommo said:


> DD just came up with her 3rd college choice.  So far she had been set on Northwestern or Washington University here in St. Louis.  Both are extremely selective schools who accept less than 25% of applicants.  Their average ACT scores are in the 30s.  Tuition is over $40k a year.
> 
> I have been encouraging her to choose a "safety school" where she is sure she would be admitted and would be happy there if she does not get into the other two or get enough scholarship help to be able to attend.
> 
> ...



I would recommend that your daughter expand her choices to include at least a half dozen options.  My son will be applying to 10 Universities.


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## Luanne (Aug 19, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> I would recommend that your daughter expand her choices to include at least a half dozen options.  My son will be applying to 10 Universities.



Older dd applied to one school as a transfer student.  She got in.

Younger dd applied to 4 schools as a freshman. Accepted at all four.


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## BocaBum99 (Aug 19, 2011)

Luanne said:


> Older dd applied to one school as a transfer student.  She got in.
> 
> Younger dd applied to 4 schools as a freshman. Accepted at all four.



When I play tennis against 8 years olds, I am undefeated.  I actually never lose.

However, when I played tennis in high school, I tried to play the best players in the best tournaments in the state because I got better doing that.  I lost a lot.  The more I lost, the better I got.

If someone is winning all the time, the bar they are setting for themselves is pretty low.  To each his/her own.

Also, we are talking about high school seniors applying to college for admittance after high school.  Transfers are another story all together.  Many elite Universities take very few transfers because their retention rate is so high.  MIT, for example, admits around 1000 students per year, transfers are in the order of magnitude of dozens.  They only allow transfers if someone drops out.


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## Luanne (Aug 19, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> When I play tennis against 8 years olds, I am undefeated.  I actually never lose.
> 
> However, when I played tennis in high school, I tried to play the best players in the best tournaments in the state because I got better doing that.  I lost a lot.  The more I lost, the better I got.
> 
> If someone is winning all the time, the bar they are setting for themselves is pretty low.  To each his/her own.



Ouch!  Not sure is this is the way you intended it, but the way it came out was condescending.



> Also, we are talking about high school seniors applying to college for admittance after high school.  Transfers are another story all together.  Many elite Universities take very few transfers because their retention rate is so high.  MIT, for example, admits around 1000 students per year, transfers are in the order of magnitude of dozens.  They only allow transfers if someone drops out.



I've never said my kids applied to elite schools.  They applied where they felt they would be comfortable going.  To each his/her own.

My point was simply that students do not need to apply to a huge list of schools.


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## mclyne (Aug 19, 2011)

I had a 2 year Nursing degree but never got that bachelors. It really bothered me. Never had time--work, family, and home responsibilities etc.etc.

 One day I decided that the kids were in high school, my husband had just finished his degree and now I would pursue my degree. I was fortunate in that I had a position as a school nurse so I could take afternoon classes and be home in time to do all the things I usually do after work.

 I decided to take my libeal arts classes first before taking the sciences. I found I loved art so much that I received a degree in art hisory!! I never realized how much I loved learning until I went back to school. The college was great in that they combined my associates degree in science with the art history and I received a degree in interdisciplinary studies: biology and art history. Colleges love seasoned students, They want to learn. Go and you will see what I mean. I graduated 12yrs ago at the age of 53!! I even studied abroad with the "kids" in Belguim to study Flemish Art and Architecture. I stayed at the University with the group and  gladly became the nurse on call for all medical and emotional problems.!! College definitely enhanced my love for learning.


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## BocaBum99 (Aug 19, 2011)

Luanne said:


> Ouch!  Not sure is this is the way you intended it, but the way it came out was condescending.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are exactly proving the point of my post.  Here is how I would reword your post and then restate mine:

1: My point was simply that students do not need to apply to a huge list of schools if they are applying to non-selective schools.

2: My point was simply that students DO need to apply to a robust list of schools if they are applying to selective schools and they want to ensure that they do not get shut out of admittance into a decent school.

The person I responded to had 2 selective schools on her target list and she was only going to apply to those two schools until a recent change of heart.  If she were applying to Middlesex Community College, I would probably say that is the only place she needed to apply.


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## Luanne (Aug 19, 2011)

BocaBum99 said:


> You are exactly proving the point of my post.  Here is how I would reword your post and then restate mine:
> 
> 1: My point was simply that students do not need to apply to a huge list of schools if they are applying to non-selective schools.
> 
> ...



I wish your son the best of luck.


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## Zac495 (Aug 21, 2011)

hibbeln said:


> Ellen, I also have a son going in to 11th grade.
> Go look at your library/bookstore for books that are written FROM A STUDENTS POINT OF VIEW about various colleges.  Basically, the inside scoop kind of thing.  My son has read through 2 that we have practically non-stop, and it has been interesting to see how his thoughts on schools he THOUGHT he was interested in have change.
> For example, he thought he might be interested in U. Penn and U. of Chicago, but after reading about them immediately crossed them off his list.  They just didn't sound like his type of people.  Too "nerdy" for lack of a better word.  To the other extreme, he thought he might be interested in Penn State, but then after reading up on it felt the environment wasn't academic ENOUGH....."too much of a party atmosphere".  So that also got crossed off his list.
> It was interesting to see him start to realize that it wasn't just the university itself, but the total environment and the kind of students that are attracted.  It either is a "fit" for you, or it isn't.  Basically "these are people like me and I fit in" or not.  And when you're far away from home, it's good to feel like the people around you are a good fit and people you can easily be friends with!
> ...



Great post! I went to U of Colorado Boulder, btw - party school. 

Zac is interested in designing animation of video games. We went to 
Pitt
Carnegie Melon
BU
U  Mass Amherst
Northeastern
Penn State Main

so far.....

Northeastern really caught our eye as it's a co-op. He would definitely get some experience. He loved Pitt - just a cool place. He loved U Mass - such a warm feeling campus...


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## NJDave (Apr 14, 2013)

Zac495 said:


> Great post! I went to U of Colorado Boulder, btw - party school.
> 
> Zac is interested in designing animation of video games. We went to
> Pitt
> ...



Ellen,

Did Zac decide on a school yet?  The deadline is approaching.  After over 250 posts, it would be interesting to find out the final decision.


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## carl2591 (Apr 15, 2013)

we went through same thing last year. We had figured a state college in NC was the best route for us as out of state tutions can be pricy at best. 

Growing up in raleigh around NC state, North Carolina, Duke, East Carolina College, Wake forest etc it was easy to find a great school in the back yard. 

My high schooler was interested in engineering so NC state as a good fit plus a lot of her HS friends that had graduated went to state so there was a ready supply of people to hang out with.  We had visited the campus many time going to basket ball games at Reynolds Collusium and other activities so the campus was a known place. 

She is currently a student there doing real well mostly a's and b's and a "c" in chemistry so far, tough teacher, but overall real happy.. some times having a kid so close is not "good" when you get a call on sat morning at 9 am to come pick her up so clothes can be washed and then wanting to be returned to campus by 3 for a 6 pm kickoff football game.. 

I had to resort to telling her it was a 4 hr drive there to pick up her and laundry and 4 hrs back..  that sorta stimmed the tide a bit .

hope you get a good location and he or she is happy there,, that in the end is what matters as a unhappy kid = unhappy parents..

GO PACK..!!!


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