# Airlines tell parents to pay up or risk sitting rows away from their kids. That's wrong.



## MULTIZ321 (Nov 20, 2019)

Airlines tell parents to pay up or risk sitting rows away from their kids. That's wrong.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...families-children-separate-column/4196405002/


Richard


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## Tank (Nov 20, 2019)

Could be relaxing ,,,,

I'd make them pay me to regroup


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## andysnovel (Nov 20, 2019)

MULTIZ321 said:


> Airlines tell parents to pay up or risk sitting rows away from their kids. That's wrong.
> 
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...families-children-separate-column/4196405002/
> ...


On Delta there is assigned seating, so you know ahead of time, where you are seating, unless you book basic economy where there is no assigned seating. Southwest Airlines has no assigned seating but for an extra fee you can book early bird, which gets you on the plane sooner, they also have family boarding after A group has boarded, we have an autistic son and make sure we take care of this seating issue long before we board. I have seen flight crews in the past make an extra effort to seat families together. This writer should be asking why do parents not take care of business ahead of time, make sure the have assigned seating. Planes fly full these days, hoping for the best is not going to cut it.


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## mcsteve (Nov 20, 2019)

Sorry, but I don't agree this is an issue the airlines should be held accountable for (except when they reassign seats).  IMHO, if you are traveling with a child or someone else you "need" to be with, then it is your responsibility to take the steps necessary to ensure this happens.  I would never play roulette with my young family members by not selecting seating prior to arrival.  And the concept of forcing someone out of their "paid" seat so that they can be together is a bit on the entitled side (again IMHO).  

I pay to have an isle seat in the forward section of the plane so that I am in the final boarding groups (more time in the lounge area waiting with only an under seat carry on) but still in the seating section which I prefer.  When I have been approached to move I have offered to accommodate if they compensate me for the price I paid to have that seat.  This has always been met with disdain by someone who obviously cared less for my needs/wants than their own. 

On a different perspective, I have given up my seat when there were people with physical or mental challenges that needed to be accommodated.  There was a lady flying in to a medical appointment in Dallas whose travel companion could not get a seat next to her due to the late booking.  I gladly exchanged seats because it was just the right thing to do and I have done so several times.

A simple solution could be for the airlines to impose mandatory group seat selection when an itinerary includes young children.  This would eliminate the roulette factor of seat assignment at the gate and ensure young children are not separated by rows.  After all, we are simply paying for a service and if you need an obvious additional level of service, perhaps the minimum fare should reflect that.  Or the airlines could simply increase all fares so that seat selection was included in each ticket as it was before, should you choose to take advantage of it.  This will not likely happen as the competitive nature of air travel drives the airlines to find new ways to reduce the base price yet recover those costs through add on fees.


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## am1 (Nov 20, 2019)

I ran in to this with Delta last year traveling with my two young sons.  We booked late and the second leg we misconnected.  Coming home we bumped up the flight a day to avoid a hurricane.  Posted about this last year on here.  I do not feel I should have to pay extra so we can sit together.  The airlines should understand and somewhat do that it an important issue.  It is a safety issue above all.  Who is going to look after my kids better then I am?  Who is going to protect them from the scum that walk among us.  In an event of an evacuation I am going to get my kids before evacuating.  Even if that means going away from the nearest exit.  Delta does save rows in the back for this but in my case they were already full. There is a difference between wanting a certain seat and wanting to seat together anywhere on the plane.  Why are children charged the same price as people multiple times their weight?  Sitting with young children should not be a choice.  Choosing an aisle in the front of the cabin or beside your wife or friend is.  Why do airlines think they should put other passengers in the situations of having to babysit?

For this I choose to fly airlines that do not charge to sit with ones young children.  I do not think history will look fondly on these airlines.


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## louisianab (Nov 20, 2019)

I feel like this is the same scenario when people are upset about luggage charges or printing your boarding pass charges. It's spelled out ahead of time. 
With my kids, we fly Southwest. By myself, weekend trip? I'll fly Spirit or Frontier with my messenger bag and sit between strangers. 
Reading the fine print would save people a lot of stress in every facet of life.


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## PamMo (Nov 20, 2019)

I HATE flying. I used to love it, but when airlines started charging for "extras" that used to be included in the normal fare, they knew passengers would game the system. They're OK with pitting passengers against each other, as long as record profits come in from those fees.


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## x3 skier (Nov 20, 2019)

Well said mcsteve.  Never have understood why folks who want a higher level of service get upset with having to pay for it.

It’s not as if there aren’t choices. I like the early boarding on Southwest so I pay for it. I like the room in Business Class to Europe so I pay more in miles. I like the service and seating on the Majors more than on the Low Cost Carriers so I pay more for it.

Now if we can just ban the so-called Emotional Support Animals..........

Cheers


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## pedro47 (Nov 20, 2019)

mcsteve said:


> Sorry, but I don't agree this is an issue the airlines should be held accountable for (except when they reassign seats).  IMHO, if you are traveling with a child or someone else you "need" to be with, then it is your responsibility to take the steps necessary to ensure this happens.  I would never play roulette with my young family members by not selecting seating prior to arrival.  And the concept of forcing someone out of their "paid" seat so that they can be together is a bit on the entitled side (again IMHO).
> 
> I pay to have an isle seat in the forward section of the plane so that I am in the final boarding groups (more time in the lounge area waiting with only an under seat carry on) but still in the seating section which I prefer.  When I have been approached to move I have offered to accommodate if they compensate me for the price I paid to have that seat.  This has always been met with disdain by someone who obviously cared less for my needs/wants than their own.
> 
> ...



I agree with mcsteve, if parents needs to sit with that child; then the parent needs to pay up for the costs of that seat. IMHO.


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## b2bailey (Nov 20, 2019)

The mention of being a passenger put in the position of 'watching out' for another passenger's child...

My first flight to Europe, I purposely booked an overnight flight, and my friend gave me something to help sleep. However, a young boy appeared in the seat next to me -- don't remember the story.  But, his presence there prevented me from sleeping since I felt 'responsible' for his well-being. I'm a grandma and he reminded me of grandson.


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## PamMo (Nov 20, 2019)

x3 skier said:


> Well said mcsteve.  Never have understood why folks who want a higher level of service get upset with having to pay for it.
> 
> It’s not as if there aren’t choices...



I agree to a point, but reality is many passengers don't get it. The vast majority of flyers aren't the million milers, who keep up to date on the ever changing ins and outs of flying. And those fees add up for a family. They lug around all sorts of bags to avoid fees and search the overhead bins in vain to find an empty space, they crowd the gate before their boarding group is called, they ask to move seats at the gate and again when they get on board, they don't sit in their seats when the fasten seat belt sign is on, they put bare feet up on your armrest, etc. Sure, it can get annoying. But, so are those people who complain about lack of upgrades, drink too much, stand around talking with the crew while you're trying to sleep, etc. I'm always impressed with the unflappable gate agents and flight attendants who try their hardest to keep everyone happy and safe. I'm even more impressed with those compassionate souls who help their fellow passengers with acts of kindness - like those saints I've seen helping a parent with a crying baby!

I'm very glad that I have the choice to fly Business or First, but I realize how fortunate I am. I'm very sympathetic to families and infrequent flyers.


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## am1 (Nov 20, 2019)

Families with small children should be accommodated with out a motive of profit.  DOT should get their act together and address this.


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## PigsDad (Nov 20, 2019)

am1 said:


> Families with small children should be accommodated with out a motive of profit.  DOT should get their act together and address this.


I agree airlines should make their best effort to seat small children w/ their parents together when, by no fault of their own, they are split up due to seat reassignments or there were not available contiguous seats available at the time of booking.  However, I see no reason why they should do so if the parents *chose *not to purchase the seat assignments if they were available at the time of booking.

Kurt


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## am1 (Nov 20, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> I agree airlines should make their best effort to seat small children w/ their parents together when, by no fault of their own, they are split up due to seat reassignments or there were not available contiguous seats available at the time of booking.  However, I see no reason why they should do so if the parents *chose *not to purchase the seat assignments if they were available at the time of booking.
> 
> Kurt


Why profit off of a necessity?


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## pedro47 (Nov 20, 2019)

Do you really feel that the airline industry will give parents with children the best seats on their planes ?


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## Luanne (Nov 20, 2019)

pedro47 said:


> Do you really feel that the airline industry will give parents with children the best seats on their planes ?


Was anyone asking for parents and children to have the best seats on the plane?  I think all that some people think is reasonable is for families to be seated together.  As a parent when traveling I would always book flights and get seat assignments ahead of time. Or when flying SW I'd get in line early (before they had the assigned boarding numbers) and when it became available pay for Early Bird.

I wouldn't expect to demand seats together if I were flying an airline that charged extra for upfront seat assignment _*and I chose NOT to purchase that.*_  I would expect, or hope, that if something changed with the aircraft, or flight got cancelled/delayed and we were put on a completely different plane that that airline would try to seat us together.


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## am1 (Nov 20, 2019)

Why not charge for elderly, handicap, emotional support animals extra as well?


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## PigsDad (Nov 20, 2019)

am1 said:


> Why profit off of a necessity?


Why should parents automatically get a discount???  Everyone else has to pay for a seat assignment, but you think that just because you have kids that you shouldn't have to pay?

Kurt


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## PigsDad (Nov 20, 2019)

am1 said:


> Why not charge for elderly, handicap, emotional support animals extra as well?


First, I agree that emotional support animals (aka, pets) should be treated as any other pet.

Second, there is a thing called the American Disabilities Act (ADA) that prohibits charging extra to accommodate those with disabilities.

Third, where have you seen that the elderly do not have to pay for an assigned seat?  Yes, they are allowed to board early (along with anyone that feels they need more time to board -- _including _those with small children), but I have never seen where they get free assigned seats on airlines that charge for that.

Kurt


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## geist1223 (Nov 20, 2019)

2 years go my Son, DIL,and 2 GDs (age 4 months and 2.5 years) were flying from SLC to Orlando on Delta. They Booked months in advance and had 4 seats located together. The day before when they went online to checkin. Their seats were scattered all over the Plane. They called Delta Customer Service. They could not help them. The next morning the Gate Agents were able to get them 2 and 2 but not together.


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## mcsteve (Nov 20, 2019)

geist1223 said:


> 2 years go my Son, DIL,and 2 GDs (age 4 months and 2.5 years) were flying from SLC to Orlando on Delta. They Booked months in advance and had 4 seats located together. The day before when they went online to checkin. Their seats were scattered all over the Plane. They called Delta Customer Service. They could not help them. The next morning the Gate Agents were able to get them 2 and 2 but not together.



situations like this I believe, as many have stated as well, that the airline should take responsibility for the change.  However, many times airlines will make small modifications for flights “months in advance” that impact seating assignments due to plane style changes as booking forecasts change for the flight.  These are typically seen in the flight modification emails (at least I see these with Delta.  And an email contact would need to be provided). If you don’t read the entire notification these seat changes can easily be overlooked.

I’ll say it again, my issue is with those who expect to be accommodated but refuse to pay for that accommodation along with others who do so.  As an individual who is flying alone or with my spouse, I pay extra to select my seat and for us to be seated together.  People with children should take the steps needed to ensure this as well.  Seat selection is not optional if you want your group together.


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## am1 (Nov 20, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> First, I agree that emotional support animals (aka, pets) should be treated as any other pet.
> 
> Second, there is a thing called the American Disabilities Act (ADA) that prohibits charging extra to accommodate those with disabilities.
> 
> ...



Added costs for wheelchairs at the gate. History will agree with me.  Government is just dragging their ass as noted on this thread.  

Air Canada a poor airline in most ways allows free seat assignments for people traveling with young children.   Others do as well. I wonder why?


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## Sandy VDH (Nov 20, 2019)

RULE, the schedule WILL change.  So if you book seats, regularly recheck them to assess impact of any equipment changes.  

Waiting until check in is NOT the time to be doing that.


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## jehb2 (Nov 21, 2019)

I traveled with my 82 year old mother this summer.  Letting her board early benefits everyone.  Trust me.


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## jehb2 (Nov 21, 2019)

mcsteve said:


> I pay extra to select my seat and for us to be seated together. People with children should take the steps needed to ensure this as well. Seat selection is not optional if you want your group together.



I buy my tickets 9 months in advance. I check my reservation regularly.  Sometimes (actually A LOT of the time) the new flight does not have me sitting with my children.  This is NOT my fault.  Yes, I expect the airlines to fix this.


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## Luanne (Nov 21, 2019)

jehb2 said:


> I buy my tickets 9 months in advance. I check my reservation regularly.  Sometimes (actually A LOT of the time) the new flight does not have me sitting with my children.  This is NOT my fault.  Yes, I expect the airlines to fix this.


And sometimes these changes happen even when we do check all of the time. We had a flight cancelled and we were able to get on another flight, different routing.  There were a lot of people on this new flight where families had been split up.  Dh and I were together, but our dh was some rows away.  We were able to get her seat switched to one next to us, but many of those flying weren't so lucky.


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## mdurette (Nov 21, 2019)

We have been flying SW for about 90% of our flights since DD was 2....she is now 13.    I don't buy Early Bird seating unless I know I will not be able to check in at T24, like on a cruise (I don't pay for internet package on cruise).    But once...just once, I forgot to check in, she was about 9 at the time, we were at the end of C grouping and I knew it would be an issue.   As soon as I got to the gate, I coughed up the $80 for two tickets to be upgraded into A seating (SW does this if they didn't fill A1-A15 with Business selects.)

I would be the crazy lady at the gate though if I previously paid to have assignment and they changed it.


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## mcsteve (Nov 21, 2019)

jehb2.  I agree with you and I think most people here have offered agreement that if the airline changes the reservation then they should be responsible to maintain the grouping within the same itinerary.  





mcsteve said:


> the airline should take responsibility for the change


  If you pay for advance seating and select seating to keep your group together, you have done all you can do.  Unfortunately I think this thread shows that most airlines do not do this and leave passengers to monitor and seek corrections on their own.   

The point I and many others have is with those who do not do as you have.  They leave the seat selection to chance and then expect others to fix their issue.  I don't agree with the article from the OP which suggested airlines should be held responsible for seating families together even when the family made no effort to see that this was done within the current flight/ticket process.


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## AJCts411 (Nov 22, 2019)

Question.  You buy a ticket..get a seat?  yes. I maybe incorrectly assuming you still get a seat lol.  This entire steam pile of antics by the airlines is a issue they created by trying to extract every last penny from the traveler.  Book a flight...pick a seat! WHY is there any reason for charging more for seat selection? money profits greed.  I'm not talking of the class sections of the airplane. It astounds me how airlines get away with this.  If you book early, plan your trip...why not pick your seat? free. 
If you want to fill those bad seats...fly on the cheap, lower the ticket cost for middle seating.   I say tell the airlines to stop playing their petty games.  And if some want to run a basement cheapo airlines, then we have our choice to take business elsewhere. And when you pick cheapo airways...don't complain, you got a great a deal. This seat cash cow is as bad as non-refundable tickets.  If you need to cancel, why bother telling the airlines if they are not refunding your money?  Why let then sell your seat twice?  sorry...rant over lol.


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## PigsDad (Nov 22, 2019)

AJCts411 said:


> Question.  You buy a ticket..get a seat?  yes. I maybe incorrectly assuming you still get a seat lol.  This entire steam pile of antics by the airlines is a issue they created by trying to extract every last penny from the traveler.  Book a flight...pick a seat!


Not sure if you have traveled lately, but in order to keep the minimum price lower and compete with the no-frills airlines, almost all of the airlines have gone to a-la-carte pricing.  The base ticket you buy is just for the transportation from point A to point B.  If you want to pick your own assigned seat: fee.  If you want a checked bag: fee.  If you want space in the overhead bin for a bag: fee.  The thought here is allow passengers who don't need those services don't have to pay for it.  Under the old system where all of that was included, the fares were higher as everybody is paying for the cost to handle checked bags for that flight, for example.



> If you want to fill those bad seats...fly on the cheap, lower the ticket cost for middle seating.


This is *exactly *what is happening.  When you pick your seats, the seats in front are more expensive than the back.  Exit rows are more expensive.  Aisles and windows are more expensive than the middle.



> I say tell the airlines to stop playing their petty games.  And if some want to run a basement cheapo airlines, then we have our choice to take business elsewhere. And when you pick cheapo airways...don't complain, you got a great a deal.


So are you personally willing to pay a higher fare to fly on an airline that doesn't charge for seats, baggage, etc?  Then tell me how that is any different than flying that same airline where the fare is lower and you pay for the extras that you choose to use, and the fare ends up being the same?

The problem is that the general public will almost always choose the cheapest base fare.  They have almost zero loyalty to a particular airline.  This is, of course, not the ideal situation, but we (the global "we"), the customers who have demanded lower fares, have gotten exactly what we deserve. 

Kurt


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 22, 2019)

I have been super happy with my Southwest flights.  I do pay for early bird seating on flights where I know will be booked solid.  Those fees are minimal to make sure we get seats together.


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## AJCts411 (Nov 22, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> Not sure if you have traveled lately, but in order to keep the minimum price lower and compete with the no-frills airlines, almost all of the airlines have gone to a-la-carte pricing.  The base ticket you buy is just for the transportation from point A to point B.  If you want to pick your own assigned seat: fee.  If you want a checked bag: fee.  If you want space in the overhead bin for a bag: fee.  The thought here is allow passengers who don't need those services don't have to pay for it.  Under the old system where all of that was included, the fares were higher as everybody is paying for the cost to handle checked bags for that flight, for example.
> 
> 
> This is *exactly *what is happening.  When you pick your seats, the seats in front are more expensive than the back.  Exit rows are more expensive.  Aisles and windows are more expensive than the middle.
> ...



Well yes I have flown lately.  Fly regularly. Don't use cheapo airlines.  al-la-carte pricing IMO drives my cost up, me the traveler who expects to pick a seat, who sometimes needs to cancel at the last minute, who sometimes travels in groups.  I travel with a carry-on, I'm not sure who it is that boards without one, (I exclude those huge personal items that can't fit under the seat and end up overhead anyway lol) . My point is that to travel business or personal, certain basic "amenities" are necessary, (they don't charge for seat belts yet right?) so while they pretend to service the basic traveler...in reality they complicate, confuse, confound air travel unnecessarily.  We know the names of the cheap seat airlines, problem is a talking head in finance on the full service ones is rubbing his greedy hands salivating at providing you with more "choices" while lining their pockets.   I'm sure there was zero reduction in ticket (factual not smoke and mirrors) pricing when all this started.

Your are so right some fliers demand the cheapest fares and want first class service.  What a mess the airlines have created.


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## x3 skier (Nov 22, 2019)

AJCts411 said:


> What a mess the airlines have created.



The airlines created a mess?  You buy a ticket to get you from A to B safely (not necessarily on time). The airlines clearly offer you up front extras if you want them.

How is this any different from buying a car with or without options, ordering an al a carte meal, more or less expensive fabric on a couch or any other optional type purchases?

If you want the options, buy them. If you don’t want them don’t buy them. Why is it a mess if you can choose?

Cheers


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## AJCts411 (Nov 22, 2019)

x3 skier said:


> The airlines created a mess?  You buy a ticket to get you from A to B safely (not necessarily on time). The airlines clearly offer you up front extras if you want them.
> 
> How is this any different from buying a car with or without options, ordering an al a carte meal, more or less expensive fabric on a couch or any other optional type purchases?
> 
> ...



Yes a mess.  guess we will have to agree to disagree.  Paying to sit with your partner or children is not a luxury, although the airlines say it is.  Bringing your belongings change of clothes for your travels onboard...they charge to check them now...not a luxury. I do not buy all the airlines hype about saving me money.


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## x3 skier (Nov 22, 2019)

AJCts411 said:


> I do not buy all the airlines hype about saving me money.



They may not save you any but they save me money since I don’t check a bag, don’t select a seat, don’t buy booze or any other options except when I want to. If they didn’t charge those fees to be profitable, they would have to raise all fares or go bankrupt again like they have before.

Maybe if they didn’t pay the Senior bus drivers up front $250000 a year, they could lower fares or eliminate fees.

Cheers


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## easyrider (Nov 22, 2019)

If a person is going to be their own travel agent they better know what is going on regarding everything they plan, imo. It is no different than any other diy dealio when you learn by doing or by mistakes. 

I recently booked a flight on Southwest  to HNL for my nieces. I asked if they were willing to pay more to sit together. They said no, cheapest ticket available please. So these girls will be sitting next to strangers. The youngest girl is 18. 

Bill


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## Luanne (Nov 22, 2019)

easyrider said:


> If a person is going to be their own travel agent they better know what is going on regarding everything they plan, imo. It is no different than any other diy dealio when you learn by doing or by mistakes.
> 
> I recently booked a flight on Southwest  to HNL for my nieces. I asked if they were willing to pay more to sit together. They said no, cheapest ticket available please. So these girls will be sitting next to strangers. The youngest girl is 18.
> 
> Bill


You don't know they will be sitting next to strangers, well I guess they would, at least one of them would.  And if they do, sounds like it won't bother them.


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## jehb2 (Nov 22, 2019)

This is not an isolated incident.  Grown women have been assaulted in their seats while on planes.  Airlines do seat children traveling alone next to female passengers.  However, children traveling with their parents can be placed where ever.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4134774/Man-caught-watching-porn-flight.html


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## PigsDad (Nov 22, 2019)

easyrider said:


> I recently booked a flight on Southwest  to HNL for my nieces. I asked if they were willing to pay more to sit together. They said no, cheapest ticket available please. So these girls will be sitting next to strangers. The youngest girl is 18.


Southwest doesn't offer an option to select seats; only the "Early Bird" option that automatically checks you in (to get your boarding position number) before it is open the everyone else at 24 hours out.  If they check in right at T-24 hours, they will have a very good probability of being able to find seats together.

Kurt


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## Sugarcubesea (Nov 22, 2019)

I just flew home today on Delta from our plant in Phoenix and ran into the most annoying and obnoxious woman with two kids in tow.  

She booked economy basic where they assign your seat at the gate.  

Her 10 year old was in the middle seat 2 rows behind me and her 14 year old was in the middle seat behind me and she was in the middle seat in my row.  

I always buy an aisle seat and I do it for a reason.  She wanted everyone in our aisle to move to accommodate her and her kids.  No one would and she was having a meltdown.  

I’m so done with people being entitled


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## Sandy VDH (Nov 22, 2019)

Basic economy does NOT include seat selection in advance.  If you MUST have your children seated next to you, then you have to do what the rest of us do that want specific seat selections, and that is PAY for the privilege to select your seating arrangements. 

NOW, that does not mean that those selections can't be screwed up by equipment changes, but then too if seating is real important monitor those seats periodically, and make necessary changes.

Having children does not exempt you from the current a la carte the airlines have.  Basic economy is pretty cheap compared with other economy choice, so you get what you paid for.  

I would NOT trade an Aisle for a middle for anyone.  But at my height and size, there is a reason for that.


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## Luanne (Nov 22, 2019)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I just flew home today on Delta from our plant in Phoenix and ran into the most annoying and obnoxious woman with two kids in tow.
> 
> She booked economy basic where they assign your seat at the gate.
> 
> ...


I have a worse annoying mom story.  This doesn't have anything to do with seat assignment so I know I'm veering from the topic.

Some years back we were flying from San Francisco to Maui.  While we were waiting in the boarding area a mom flying with two (or maybe three young kids) decided to take her daughter to the restroom.  She asked a total stranger to watch her son.  More like she didn't ask, just announced she was going to the restroom, would this woman watch him, and just walked away.  Anyway, when she came back, the boy was gone.  The mother went into full blown panic.  Well, I would have as well, but then again, I wouldn't have left any of my kids alone.  She demanded to be able to get on the plane so she could look for him there.  The gate agents told her there was no way the boy could have gotten on the plane without them seeing him.  She kept demanding until the boy finally turned up.  I think he'd wandered off either to the restroom or one of the gift shops.  Of course this all held up boarding.

I don't remember any incidents on the plane, but I don't think they were seated anywhere near us.  When we got to Maui and the baggage claim area, there she was, with her kids and the kids were all playing ON the baggage carousel.  She wasn't paying any attention to them at all.


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## Sugarcubesea (Nov 22, 2019)

Sandy VDH said:


> Basic economy does NOT include seat selection in advance.  If you MUST have your children seated next to you, then you have to do what the rest of us do that want specific seat selections, and that is PAY for the privilege to select your seating arrangements.
> 
> NOW, that does not mean that those selections can't be screwed up by equipment changes, but then too if seating is real important monitor those seats periodically, and make necessary changes.
> 
> ...



I was pissed because she was bragging how she only paid for economy basic and she’s never had this problem in the past everyone’s always accommodated her.  She picked the aisle this time with road warriors and we were having none of it.


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## Sandy VDH (Nov 22, 2019)

What gets my goat is when parents take the upgrade but then leave the kids in coach. In this case I think they were even all standby.   The kids were not seated together.  The 5 year old across the aisle and back a row was nearly in tears and the parents in biz did not seem to care one bit.  There were 2 other children under the age of 12 scattered throughout our section.  The person sitting beside the nearly in tears 5 year old arranged to have their sibling sit with her.


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## Luanne (Nov 22, 2019)

Sandy VDH said:


> What gets my goat is when parents take the upgrade but then leave the kids in coach. In this case I think they were even all standby.   The kids were not seated together.  The 5 year old across the aisle and back a row was nearly in tears and the parents in biz did not seem to care one bit.  There were 2 other children under the age of 12 scattered throughout our section.  The person sitting beside the nearly in tears 5 year old arranged to have their sibling sit with her.


On another Hawaii flight some years back I was traveling with dh, both dds, my mom and a friend.  We all had seats together.  When we went to check in (at the gate) we were told the aircraft had changed.  I was asked if I wanted to be upgraded to Business Class, but they couldn't promise we'd all be together.  My mom told me to take the upgrade, so I did.  Our younger dd was pretty little and I wanted to be sure one of us would be next to her.  There were two seats that were next to each other, so I thought I'd offer to take those and have younger dd sit next to me.  Turns out, it was a double level plane and dd and I were upstairs in first class!  Dh ended up in Business, and he was next to our other dd.  The other two members of our party were not sitting with either of us, but they were both perfectly fine.


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## PigsDad (Nov 23, 2019)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I’m so done with *people being entitled*


I think you just nailed the root of the whole issue.  And I've seen some of it right here in this thread. 

Kurt


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## geist1223 (Nov 23, 2019)

Several years ago we were returning from Cabo. The last to get on the Plane was a guy that thought he was still "Cool Surfer Boy/Golfer" but several decades past his prime and his wife with two kids. Mom and kids were in one row and he did not help at all. He just drank. When we got to LAX he went ahead and got his golf bag off the Carousel and walked off to get in line for Customs. Leaving Mom/Wife to deal with the two kids and all the other baggage. Well the Custom Agents noticed. When he got to the Front his Golf Bag was searched in detail and he was taken off to the private room for a detailed up close and personal search.

I agree that there are way too many people walking round with an entitled mentality.


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## MichaelColey (Nov 24, 2019)

We've always stuck with airlines that let you choose your seats for free (either by policy or due to elite status).  The only time we haven't been able to sit together was an oddball Iberian flight from Madrid to Lima, Peru.  We had booked our flights from the Canary Islands connecting in Madrid then on to Miami with a 3 hour connection.  The airline changed our flights to a 45 minute connection and when I called to try to get that changed they refused saying it would be fine.  It wasn't.  Our flight was delayed and despite sprinting to the gate (pushing a stroller) we arrived 10 minutes before the flight to Miami departed and they wouldn't let us on.  The next flight to Miami was 24 hours later, but they put us on a connecting flight through Lima and then on to Miami.  We were scattered around the plane in middle seats.  Our kids were 9, 7 and 2 at the time.  The airline wouldn't put us together.  We did get one passenger who swapped seats, so my wife was able to sit with the 2-year old.


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## DRIless (Nov 24, 2019)

American Airlines, has anyone else noticed that if you buy Basic Economy and check in right at T24, you get the "worst seat" available on the plane?  I've noticed that they fill those "assigned at check-in seats" from the back in the middle seats.  I guess they're saying "next time pay more for your ticket."  They certainly don't reward you for checking in early as Basic Economy, you'll probably have a better seat if you check in at the airport.


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## jehb2 (Nov 24, 2019)

Here’s another common  scenario.  Alaska/American changes my itinerary for the umteenth time.  They can give me seats on the first flight but not the connecting flight. I check in for my first flight but they aren’t able to issue me seats for the connecting flight. I have to wait til I get to the connecting flight and the gate opens. Of course by that time there are no seats even relatively close together and the flight attendant will have to fix it.  This is absolutely NOT my fault. And this is common.  But it works out due to nice people.  It has to be karma.   When I was single and traveled for business I was always the first to give up my seat so that parents could sit with the kids. I just thought it was absolutely ridiculous that a parent would have to be separated from their kid. Even if it meant I had to sit in the middle seat.

One time flying out of Canada and connecting through Bellingham there was a flight change and we didn’t have seats together when we boarded the plane. As soon as passengers on the plane overheard the situation  five people stood up and offered their seats. And they stayed standing until the flight attendant actually seated us. They were all Canadians. Canadians are so freakin nice.

 I don’t begrudge passengers for not giving up their seats. My issue is with the airline.


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## easyrider (Nov 24, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> Southwest doesn't offer an option to select seats; only the "Early Bird" option that automatically checks you in (to get your boarding position number) before it is open the everyone else at 24 hours out.  If they check in right at T-24 hours, they will have a very good probability of being able to find seats together.
> 
> Kurt



Thanks Kurt. I will let them know.

Bill


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## MULTIZ321 (Nov 26, 2019)

Separated from kids on flights: Why it happens and
how parents can avoid it.


https://www.today.com/parents/tips-flying-kids-how-get-seats-together-t168393.


Richard


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## Sapper (Dec 1, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> Second, there is a thing called the American Disabilities Act (ADA) that prohibits charging extra to accommodate those with disabilities.



ADA does not apply to air carriers. You are thinking of the Air Carrier Access Act 49 U.S.C. 1374 (c)


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## Sapper (Dec 2, 2019)

x3 skier said:


> The airlines created a mess?



Yes, they in fact did create this mess. See the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978. Want to guess who pushed that one through Congress?  Yes, the airlines who believed free trade would allow them higher profit margins than the 10% profit margin they were authorized under the Civil Aeronautics Board.


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## PaulT (Dec 2, 2019)

x3 skier said:


> Maybe if they didn’t pay the Senior bus drivers up front $250,000 a year, they could lower fares or eliminate fees.
> 
> Cheers



I have absolutely no problem paying the senior pilots (aka bus drivers) at that rate. While I agree that almost all flights now a days are very routine and easy for the pilots, if there is ever an emergency I want an extremely senior and experienced pilot(s) up front doing their best to save me. Not some low paid pilot with just a little bit of experience. Just remember the "Miracle on the Hudson". He was definitely a senior in years and had all the experience necessary to land the plane in the river and save the lives of every one aboard. Most of the airliner accidents in recent history have been with the regional carriers and these are the lower paid pilots with much less flight time. Are you saying that you would rather have one of these regional pilots flying your plane rather than a very experienced senior pilots? NOT ME!


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## x3 skier (Dec 3, 2019)

Sapper said:


> Yes, they in fact did create this mess. See the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978. Want to guess who pushed that one through Congress?  Yes, the airlines who believed free trade would allow them higher profit margins than the 10% profit margin they were authorized under the Civil Aeronautics Board.



All true but since that Act was signed, over 20 US airlines have declared bankruptcy under Chapter 7 and over 60 under Chapter 11. A vast majority were small companies few have ever heard of but included were United, American and Delta. Allowing higher profit margins certainly doesn’t guarantee achieving them


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis...nited_States#U.S._airlines_bankruptcy_filings

Cheers


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## x3 skier (Dec 3, 2019)

PaulT said:


> I have absolutely no problem paying the senior pilots (aka bus drivers) at that rate. While I agree that almost all flights now a days are very routine and easy for the pilots, if there is ever an emergency I want an extremely senior and experienced pilot(s) up front doing their best to save me. Not some low paid pilot with just a little bit of experience. Just remember the "Miracle on the Hudson". He was definitely a senior in years and had all the experience necessary to land the plane in the river and save the lives of every one aboard. Most of the airliner accidents in recent history have been with the regional carriers and these are the lower paid pilots with much less flight time. Are you saying that you would rather have one of these regional pilots flying your plane rather than a very experienced senior pilots? NOT ME!



I’ve flown a lot of hours with USAF Pilots who make 25–50% of the pay of Senior Airline Captains.  My point is that training makes a good pilot, not the amount of their salary. If the Air Line Pilots Association can negotiate a salary of megabucks, good for them.  More money doesn’t translate to better piloting skills only training and experience can do that.

A good friend of mine is a retired fighter pilot who took a job with a regional airline because he enjoys flying. I’d rather fly with him than someone who has never faced a real emergency in 20000 hours. I would guess I’ve had more emergencies in my limited flying career in general aviation aircraft than the majority of airline pilots.

It just seems to me the pay is an expense that is the result of negotiations, not any true connection to demands of the job.  Otherwise Captains of Regional Jets and Mainline 777 Aircraft would be be paid pretty much the same since the result of failure of either one could mean the loss of over 100 lives. 

Cheers


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## Sapper (Dec 6, 2019)

x3 skier said:


> I’ve flown a lot of hours with USAF Pilots who make 25–50% of the pay of Senior Airline Captains.  My point is that training makes a good pilot, not the amount of their salary. If the Air Line Pilots Association can negotiate a salary of megabucks, good for them.  More money doesn’t translate to better piloting skills only training and experience can do that.
> 
> A good friend of mine is a retired fighter pilot who took a job with a regional airline because he enjoys flying. I’d rather fly with him than someone who has never faced a real emergency in 20000 hours. I would guess I’ve had more emergencies in my limited flying career in general aviation aircraft than the majority of airline pilots.
> 
> ...



We are going to have to disagree about this one.

Airline pilots are under paid. If you disagree, and think they make mega bucks, I suggest you figure out how to get in the left seat of that 777. The majority of people who try, fail. Let’s take your Air Force friend as an example. He has all this experience, but did not get a job with a major airline?  Why?  He has the wrong kind of experience. Will he get to the left seat of that 777, probably with time.

How much time does it take to make the left seat of that 777?  Outside the college degree, preferably in a hard science like engineering. Flying in the military is a big plus. Astronaut?  South West has a question on their application asking if you are or have been an astronaut. Have they failed a South West interview, yes. So, you need a Commercial Multi-Engine Instrument Pilots License, call it two years at a part 141 school. Less if you have that military pilot experience, though add on some years... and military pilots don’t get a commercial license. In fact, folks like your fighter pilot friend have a restriction on their multi that states center line thrust only. He lacks the experience with an engine failure causing asymmetric thrust issues. The airlines heavily discount flight time in fighter jets because of this issue. The centerline thrust experience is not experience that is useful to an airline. So all this training racks up tens of thousands of dollars in debt. Debt that pilot making minimum wage has to cover. Ok, so you have your ticket, now you need to build time (experience). You can train new pilots if you get your CFI,CFII, MEI. You can banner tow over South Beach, or go fly in the bush up in Alaska. Either way, tack on a couple more years. Maybe you get lucky and grab the right seat in a charter operator after a couple of years building time, maybe not. You finally make it into the right seat of that regional carrier. This is where your buddy is now.
You are in the right seat for a year, maybe two. Transition to the left seat of that RJ. Another couple of years. You get a few airline interviews, maybe a fellow pilot who has flown with you is willing to take a risk and recommend you. You get a job with a major airline. Wait, you don’t get that 777 job..you get right seat in a 737 or A320. Two more years, transition to left seat of the B737/A320. Two more years, right seat on a 757. Two more years, left seat 757. Add in some international experience. Finally right seat on a 777/787/747. Two more years. Finally LEFT SEAT 777/787/747!  Some do it faster, some slower.

This is of course assuming you are able to maintain your medical, not get in trouble with the law (even too many speeding tickets will cause an airline to question hiring you), not hire on with an airline that goes bankrupt... or irritate the wrong check pilot and get a hickey on your record... or God forbid bend some sheet metal on a plane.

Let’s talk responsibility. A doctor who has the same quantity of time in his/her field can kill one person at a time. They have a competence review by the board. Odds are they get to continue practicing. A 777/787/747 pilot can kill 300-400 people at a time, and this is just the folks in the back of the plane. We have not started talking about the lives on the ground.

Let’s talk rough numbers. A 777/787/747 had a sales price of $300-400 million USD. EACH. Assume 350 tickets (300 on a 777, 400 on a 747) on a trans-Atlantic / Pacific flight. The average ticket price (first $6k, business $1.5k, coach $500) is $1500. 350*$1500=$525k plus mail and cargo (which pays better than the passengers) say $475k so the one flight comes out to an even million dollars of gross revenue per flight. Let’s say a pilot does 125 of these flights per year. The pilot in command is responsible for safely operating a $300-400 million dollar piece of equipment that generates the airline $125 million USD per year.

Your friend flying the CRJ makes less money due to economics. A CRJ holds 50-70 passengers depending on the model, lets average to 60. It makes shorter runs that have a lower cost per ticket, say $150/each = $9k per flight plus the cargo and mail which is less profitable on these legs $6k/flight = $15k gross per flight. Say it’s an hour and a half on average. A pilot may do 650 of these flights per year = $9.75 million per year. Using an aircraft that cost $40-50 million when new.

At any rate, all this was to say airline pilots are under paid. I never even made it into the unpaid travel, time away from home, recurrent training, higher rates of cancer among pilots, etc.


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## x3 skier (Dec 6, 2019)

My point was while Senior Captains make a lot of money I still say that salary doesn’t equal skill.  BTW my friend was a career pilot with the USAF and when he retired had offers from the majors but chose to fly with a small regional to have more time at home and retired from that airline.  Zero aspiration for the mainline ops. Another friend chose the other path and retired from United as a DC-8 Captain.

If a USAF pilot flying a 250+ million dollar C-17 loaded with more millions of cargo or a hundred or more paratroopers makes 30% as much as a Captain flying a triple seven, is he or she only 30% as skilled?

Having been a pilot and aircraft engineer for more years than I care to admit, I certainly recognize anybody who flys anything has to have the skills and training appropriate for the plane while acting as pilot in command. A regional jet is not much different flying than a triple seven or a C-17. I’ve flown simulators for commercial jets and an actual C-17 and once you understand the systems and the performance characteristics, it’s actually pretty much the same. Even flew some F-14 carrier landings in a simulator and rode in the back seat doing real ones. Now THAT’S a real challenge  Way beyond my ability.

My point is the salary of a high seniority airline pilot is almost exclusively a matter of “time in grade”, personal choices and contract negotiations. The reality is if you fly in an airliner in first world countries, you’re equally safe. Third world countries, it’s a crap shoot.  I never have flown such airlines and never will. Their trading and experience levels are absurd, IMNSHO.

To say they are overpaid or underpaid is certainly debatable. They are paid what they are paid.  The ALPA has negotiated the contracts and good for them. If they didn’t have the skills and training, they would be paid zero as a pilot.

The description of the career path is certainly true. It’s a long and winding road to get to any left sear, much less a Triple Seven. I’ve taught some of those guys a few skills and a few make it and most don’t for many reasons.  Thank goodness those that do are good pilots wether it’s a Saab 340 or a Boeing 777. 

Cheers


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