# Oct. 18: Now that Hawaii is open, it's time for the NEW AND IMPROVED COVID-19 poll and discussion thread.



## DeniseM

*PLEASE VOTE IN THE POLL ABOVE*

Now that Hawaii has actually opened, I'm starting a NEW thread for continuing C-19/Hawaii discussions. This is the place for friendly conversations, diplomatatic debates, and genteel discourse.  *It is not the place for contentious social/political opinions - please stay on topic!*


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## csodjd

I said 2022. It's going to take more than JUST a vaccine being available. At a minimum, it will take a vaccine that is widely adopted and reasonably effective (70% or more?). And while we'll never see herd immunity from this kind of virus, we WILL see a significant reduction in the number of people that can catch it at any given time, between vaccines and recent (within six months) infections. Those will come together to help ensure relatively ordinary case rates well within the ability of the medical system. May even have good treatments by then. Maybe by summer of 2022 we'll see a "normal" Hawaii.


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## MommaBear

csodjd said:


> I said 2022. It's going to take more than JUST a vaccine being available. At a minimum, it will take a vaccine that is widely adopted and reasonably effective (70% or more?). And while we'll never see herd immunity from this kind of virus, we WILL see a significant reduction in the number of people that can catch it at any given time, between vaccines and recent (within six months) infections. Those will come together to help ensure relatively ordinary case rates well within the ability of the medical system. May even have good treatments by then. Maybe by summer of 2022 we'll see a "normal" Hawaii.


Curious where you got your information that we won't get herd immunity from the Covid vaccine.


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## csodjd

MommaBear said:


> Curious where you got your information that we won't get herd immunity from the Covid vaccine.


It's my opinion. We don't get herd immunity from viruses that don't generate lifetime immunity. The common cold is a coronavirus. No immunity there. Indeed, we're already hearing reports of a few people being infected a second time. While it's not clear how long any protection we get will last, none of the leading scientists expect it to be long term. Of course, we can get herd immunity artificially from vaccines, but, again, they (the antibodies) have to last, and we need to achieve a very high rate of penetrance. Measles, I believe, requires 95% of the population to be vaccinated. We're a long way from that with COVID.


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## slip

Took a walk down to Waikiki Beach this afternoon. I walked through the International MarketPlace and took the video below. More stores are definitely open by not too many people yet. Most of the stores have a sign for the number of people allowed in at one time. Thought some people might want to see how it’s going so far.


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## dioxide45

csodjd said:


> It's my opinion. We don't get herd immunity from viruses that don't generate lifetime immunity. The common cold is a coronavirus. No immunity there. Indeed, we're already hearing reports of a few people being infected a second time. While it's not clear how long any protection we get will last, none of the leading scientists expect it to be long term. Of course, we can get herd immunity artificially from vaccines, but, again, they (the antibodies) have to last, and we need to achieve a very high rate of penetrance. Measles, I believe, requires 95% of the population to be vaccinated. We're a long way from that with COVID.


Actually, the common cold isn't only caused by the coronavirus. There are other viruses like influenza and rhinovirus that are the cause of the common cold. While immunity may not last forever, the common cold may actually be the cause of hundreds of viruses. We could get a cold early in the season and get another later which is caused by a completely different virus, not because of  waning immunity.

_Cold viruses have a lot in common, but each type has its own style, too.
*Rhinovirus. *This bunch is most active in early fall, spring, and summer. They cause 10%-40% of colds. You'll feel plenty miserable when you catch one, but the good news is they rarely make you seriously sick.
*Coronavirus.* These tend to do their dirty work in the winter and early spring. The coronavirus is the cause of about 20% of colds. There are more than 30 kinds, but only three or four affect people.
*RSV and parainfluenza.* These viruses cause 20% of colds. They sometimes lead to severe infections, like pneumonia, in young children._









						Causes of the Common Cold
					

There are more than 200 viruses that can cause a common cold with 20-30% caused by "unknown" bugs. See a list of the most common virus types that cause colds.




					www.webmd.com


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## slip

Here’s another couple videos on the beach. It has been cloudy all weekend and it rained just as I got to Paia Fish Market.


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## csodjd

dioxide45 said:


> Actually, the common cold isn't only caused by the corona virus. There are other viruses like influenza and rhinovirus that are the cause of the common cold. While immunity may not last forever, the common cold may actually be the cause of hundreds of viruses. We could get a cold early in the season and get another later which is caused by a completely different virus, not because of  waning immunity.
> 
> _Cold viruses have a lot in common, but each type has its own style, too.
> *Rhinovirus. *This bunch is most active in early fall, spring, and summer. They cause 10%-40% of colds. You'll feel plenty miserable when you catch one, but the good news is they rarely make you seriously sick.
> *Coronavirus.* These tend to do their dirty work in the winter and early spring. The coronavirus is the cause of about 20% of colds. There are more than 30 kinds, but only three or four affect people.
> *RSV and parainfluenza.* These viruses cause 20% of colds. They sometimes lead to severe infections, like pneumonia, in young children._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Causes of the Common Cold
> 
> 
> There are more than 200 viruses that can cause a common cold with 20-30% caused by "unknown" bugs. See a list of the most common virus types that cause colds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com


And there's no lasting immunity to any of them. Getting into the weeds doesn't change the challenge with hoping for herd immunity as the savior from COVID. I personally think that an effective treatment is more likely to be the key to getting back to a more normal day to day life. Perhaps the antibody treatments that appear to have helped Trump and Christy and that have been so remarkably effective against things like breast cancer will be the answer. Above my pay grade. I just don't see herd immunity. Heck, I don't even see 75% of the US population being immunized, at least not for several years, if/when a vaccine is approved.


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## slip

Here’s some pictures from my walk. I was on the beach at about 4pm.


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## cman

I'm thinking 2022. Just saw an interview with Dr. Fauci where he predicted that we'd have an effective vaccine as early as November, but it wouldn't be widely available until the end of 2021. 

I also like how Hawaii has handled this thing. The Governor stated his goal was to "ensure the health and safety of Hawaii's citizens". He did it. Hawaii is one of the least impacted states in the country as far as Covid is concerned. The guy also established a program that ensured that the majority of people traveling to the islands were tested in advance. They basically made Hawaii the safest state in the nation to travel to. 

I don't have a dog in this fight, but if they protected their population from Covid, and made their state the safest travel destination in the country, can we give them some credit? I mean, it's about results. Seems like their doing pretty well.


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## dioxide45

cman said:


> I also like how Hawaii has handled this thing. The Governor stated his goal was to "ensure the health and safety of Hawaii's citizens". He did it. Hawaii is one of the least impacted states in the country as far as Covid is concerned. The guy also established a program that ensured that the majority of people traveling to the islands were tested in advance. They basically made Hawaii the safest state in the nation to travel to.


Its isolation makes this possible. Of course it also decimated the primary driver of its economy.


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## Tamaradarann

slip said:


> Took a walk down to Waikiki Beach this afternoon. I walked through the International MarketPlace and took the video below. More stores are definitely open by not too many people yet. Most of the stores have a sign for the number of people allowed in at one time. Thought some people might want to see how it’s going so far.


Thanks for the tour of International Market and Kalakaua.  The number of people walking around looks like the early morning hours(6 AM) before it opens rather than the afternoon.  I guess while they have the signs limiting the number of people at one time it is really not necessary yet since there aren't really many people shopping.  That may become an additional issue with Hawaii opening up.  While significant numbers may start to return to Hawaii the tourists are not doing the things that they previously were doing like doing shopping in crowded malls and major commercial areas like Kalakaua.  Also, Hawaii hasn't really opened up to international tourists.  I believe that the Japanese tourists really are the major buyers in the high end stores on Kalakaua and the Ala Moana Mall.  I know we weren't.


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## Tamaradarann

_I also like how Hawaii has handled this thing. The Governor stated his goal was to "ensure the health and safety of Hawaii's citizens". He did it. Hawaii is one of the least impacted states in the country as far as Covid is concerned. The guy also established a program that ensured that the majority of people traveling to the islands were tested in advance. They basically made Hawaii the safest state in the nation to travel to.  I don't have a dog in this fight, but if they protected their population from Covid, and made their state the safest travel destination in the country, can we give them some credit? I mean, it's about results. Seems like their doing pretty well.
QUOTE="dioxide45,_ post: 2519556, member: 12397"]


_Its isolation makes this possible. Of course it also decimated the primary driver of its economy.
[/QUOTE]_

I agree with both of these statements.  There were(are) real difficult decisions that the Governor had(has) to make.  On one hand the economy has been decimated and will take a long time to return to the way it was.  On the other if tourists from all over the world kept coming in large numbers to Hawaii they undoubtedly would have brought and spread the virus to overload the healthcare system that Hawaii has.  One can picture people laying in hallways and streets sick and dying without the ability of getting care.   That wouldn't have just been a problem for the health and safety of Hawaii's citizens, this would have been a problem for the tourists that did come and got sick.  What would have been the fallout of that?  What would tourists be thinking right now if that happened and could still be happening?

Since March when we left Honolulu I have been in agreement with the decision of Governor Ige to close Hawaii to tourists without a quarantine.  I have been advocating the program that the Governor has implemented October 15th to reopen Hawaii to tourists since June but apparently the pre-testing of visitors before flying has not been possible.  This was NOT because of Hawaii but because of the PARTNERS in the Continental United States not being able to test and produce the results of the test on a timely basis of the visitors before flying.  The Governor could not control that.


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## DannyTS

cman said:


> I'm thinking 2022. Just saw an interview with Dr. Fauci where he predicted that we'd have an effective vaccine as early as November, but it wouldn't be widely available until the end of 2021.
> 
> I also like how Hawaii has handled this thing. The Governor stated his goal was to "ensure the health and safety of Hawaii's citizens". He did it. Hawaii is one of the least impacted states in the country as far as Covid is concerned. The guy also established a program that ensured that the majority of people traveling to the islands were tested in advance. They basically made Hawaii the safest state in the nation to travel to.
> 
> I don't have a dog in this fight, but if they protected their population from Covid, and made their state the safest travel destination in the country, can we give them some credit? I mean, it's about results. Seems like their doing pretty well.



The safest state to travel to? They just opened so maybe it is safe now for few days but we will have to see in a month or two if that is still true. We all remember that 6 weeks ago Hawaii had the highest growth rate in the US even if they still had lots of restrictions in place.


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## Ralph Sir Edward

csodjd said:


> It's my opinion. We don't get herd immunity from viruses that don't generate lifetime immunity. The common cold is a coronavirus. No immunity there. Indeed, we're already hearing reports of a few people being infected a second time. While it's not clear how long any protection we get will last, none of the leading scientists expect it to be long term. Of course, we can get herd immunity artificially from vaccines, but, again, they (the antibodies) have to last, and we need to achieve a very high rate of penetrance. Measles, I believe, requires 95% of the population to be vaccinated. We're a long way from that with COVID.



In all seriousness, the question is how much, and how long, any vaccine will work. If it is good for more than a year, that will do fine. 

Why? Just add the COVID vaccine to the annual flu shot. That may not give us "herd immunity", but should reduce later pandemics.


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## csodjd

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> In all seriousness, the question is how much, and how long, any vaccine will work. If it is good for more than a year, that will do fine.
> 
> Why? Just add the COVID vaccine to the annual flu shot. That may not give us "herd immunity", but should reduce later pandemics.


Yes, but that may oversimplify a bit. Recall that the effectiveness of the flu vaccine varies greatly from season to season as there are several strains of flu virus and they have to try and anticipate in advance how to prep the vaccine. Some years it is very effective, others not effective much at all (~10%). Given the virulence and characteristics of COVID, we really need a more certain vaccine to be able to rely upon it. If you are 70, diabetic and overweight, a 40% effective vaccine isn’t going to give you much comfort. We’ll need a few years for the COVID vaccine business to get refined, have good data, etc. In the meantime, masks appear to be a pretty good “vaccine.”


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## Ralph Sir Edward

csodjd said:


> Yes, but that may oversimplify a bit. Recall that the effectiveness of the flu vaccine varies greatly from season to season as there are several strains of flu virus and they have to try and anticipate in advance how to prep the vaccine. Some years it is very effective, others not effective much at all (~10%). Given the virulence and characteristics of COVID, we really need a more certain vaccine to be able to rely upon it. If you are 70, diabetic and overweight, a 40% effective vaccine isn’t going to give you much comfort. We’ll need a few years for the COVID vaccine business to get refined, have good data, etc. In the meantime, masks appear to be a pretty good “vaccine.”



Yes, but consider, COVID will mutate, but it seems to mutate at a lower rate than influenza. Influenza gets lots of crossover with animal strains. COVID, not very much.

I'm merely pointing out if people take annual flu shots already, adding COVID to the mix should not be a big problem. It wouldn't be like having to add a new vaccine to the annual mix.

Perfect? Of course not, but OTOH, every little bit counts. . .


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## csodjd

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Yes, but consider, COVID will mutate, but it seems to mutate at a lower rate than influenza. Influenza gets lots of crossover with animal strains. COVID, not very much.
> 
> I'm merely pointing out if people take annual flu shots already, adding COVID to the mix should not be a big problem. It wouldn't be like having to add a new vaccine to the annual mix.
> 
> Perfect? Of course not, but OTOH, every little bit counts. . .


Oh, and to toss in a technical challenge... the current forms of vaccine being tested require very low temperature storage (~80C I believe) to maintain their effectiveness. That limits distribution to specialized equipment and locations. Again, with time, that’s likely to change. But it will challenge and slow wide distribution initially. 

All of this is just to say, it’s going to take time and patience. And we should not be trying to do it alone... there are experts around the world and they should be able to work together to get us to a finish line.


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## cman

Is this even legal?

*2 Kauai restaurants ban tourists from dining rooms*








						2 Kauai restaurants ban tourists from dining rooms
					

Two restaurants on the north shore of Kauai have posted social media notices that they won’t be serving visitors, who arrive through the state’s pre-arrivals testing program, in their dining rooms.




					www.staradvertiser.com


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## Jan M.

[Redacted:  This thread is for discussions about HAWAII TRAVEL - please stick to the topic.]

I'll give it another month to see how things go in Hawaii before I'm ready to think about booking anything. Even though we have vouchers from our trip to Kauai last year that are burning a whole in my pocket. Because we've been there I understand and agree with the reasons they've been so strict. While I have no concerns that our traveling in the Continental US has put anyone else at risk, at this time I wouldn't be able to say the same thing about Hawaii.


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## lynne

4 Tourists Arrive on Big Island Positive With COVID in 3 Days
					

Equates to about 1 out of 700 passengers arriving testing positive for COVID-19.




					bigislandgazette.com
				




This does not look like a good beginning to tourism opening.  

Through the weekend, a total of 9 passengers have tested positive for COVID at Big Island airports with the mandatory rapid tests on landing.

All of those passengers were then required to take a PCR test and quarantine. Of those 9, 4 were confirmed positive and 5 were false positive. The Department of Health is monitoring those positive passengers.

Contact tracing has begun to round up the passengers on United and Hawaiian who sat in the same row and two rows forward/back to quarantine and test those positive-exposed people.

A person's positivity is reported to their home zip code. So unless these positive people reside on Hawaii County, their positivity won't impact Hawaii's virus counts.


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## klpca

cman said:


> Is this even legal?
> 
> *2 Kauai restaurants ban tourists from dining rooms*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Kauai restaurants ban tourists from dining rooms
> 
> 
> Two restaurants on the north shore of Kauai have posted social media notices that they won’t be serving visitors, who arrive through the state’s pre-arrivals testing program, in their dining rooms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.staradvertiser.com


Seems extreme, but it is not like we have any intention of dining in an enclosed space while we are over there anyways so I won't let this bother me too much. Personally I am hoping to avoid people but with this kind of local sentiment it may keep us off of hiking trails - which is what I am sure they are looking for - but I just don't want to deal with angry people while traveling.


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## wilma

Jan M. said:


> I kind of expect that within just a few years COVID-19 will be regarded as another medical/health threat that had a big deal moment then passed just like SARS, West Nile and Zika. What won't pass for years to come will be the fallout to so many people's lives.



Well, I guess if you ignore the hundreds of thousands dead and the millions infected then covid 19 would be similar to other threats.


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## WVBaker

[Deleted - you don't learn do you?]


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## amy241

The article states a couple of restaurants on Kauai are refusing to serve tourists in dining rooms:

“Saenz Ohana Breakfast in Princeville posted Friday that it would only allow visitors to order online and pick up and that only residents with local state IDs would be allowed to order, sit and eat.

“Visitors we are sorry for the inconvenience but we, as a island, are not ready for opening now,” the post said. “(Our) plan is to keep our area safe of travelers so the locals can have somewhere to feel safe eating not crowded by visitors that may or may not be COVID positive.”









						2 Kauai restaurants ban tourists from dining rooms
					

Two restaurants on the north shore of Kauai have posted social media notices that they won’t be serving visitors, who arrive through the state’s pre-arrivals testing program, in their dining rooms.




					www.staradvertiser.com


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## DeniseM

Two posts have been edited:  This forum is for discussions about TRAVEL to Hawaii - not for contentious opinions about C-19.  If you want to have a C-19 thread on the Hawaii Forum, then stick to the topic!  If you want to wax eloquently about your contentious social/political opions, there are lots of places where you can do that - but not here.


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## WVBaker

WVBaker said:


> [Deleted - you don't learn do you?]



I apologize Denise, I was simply offering Jan some kind words.


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## DannyTS

Jan M. said:


> [Redacted:  This thread is for discussions about HAWAII TRAVEL - please stick to the topic.]
> 
> I'll give it another month to see how things go in Hawaii before I'm ready to think about booking anything. Even though we have vouchers from our trip to Kauai last year that are burning a whole in my pocket. Because we've been there I understand and agree with the reasons they've been so strict. While I have no concerns that our traveling in the Continental US has put anyone else at risk, at this time I wouldn't be able to say the same thing about Hawaii.


We have vouchers as well. I am not sure what  the cancellation policy for  vouchers  is (Air Canada and Westjet, probably different in the States). If those cannot be changed or cancelled we may just use cash or points for the next flight; initially when we start to travel by plane things will probably still not be 100% OK and another wave can come any time. We will use the vouchers when we are completely on the other side of this.


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## DeniseM

> I apologize Denise, I was simply offering Jan some kind words.


When your "kind words" dog whistle a contentious social/political opinion, you should use a private message.


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## Papa2015

slip said:


> Took a walk down to Waikiki Beach this afternoon. I walked through the International MarketPlace and took the video below. More stores are definitely open by not too many people yet. Most of the stores have a sign for the number of people allowed in at one time. Thought some people might want to see how it’s going so far.


Thanks for posting. Goes to show how dependent these businesses are on tourism.


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## csodjd

lynne said:


> 4 Tourists Arrive on Big Island Positive With COVID in 3 Days
> 
> 
> Equates to about 1 out of 700 passengers arriving testing positive for COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigislandgazette.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This does not look like a good beginning to tourism opening.
> 
> Through the weekend, a total of 9 passengers have tested positive for COVID at Big Island airports with the mandatory rapid tests on landing.
> 
> All of those passengers were then required to take a PCR test and quarantine. Of those 9, 4 were confirmed positive and 5 were false positive. The Department of Health is monitoring those positive passengers.
> 
> Contact tracing has begun to round up the passengers on United and Hawaiian who sat in the same row and two rows forward/back to quarantine and test those positive-exposed people.
> 
> A person's positivity is reported to their home zip code. So unless these positive people reside on Hawaii County, their positivity won't impact Hawaii's virus counts.


Not sure which is more concerning... 4 positives or 5 false positives. The fear/concern of those 5 until they get their results is probably very real. That said, it would be great if we get the results of that contract tracing... it will either give us all great sense of security, or real concern. Doubt we will though.

Edit: I just read that there were 2800 people that arrived. So the 4 positives are out of 2800. The Lt. Gov. said he felt that was quite acceptable. 0.1%.


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## jabberwocky

DannyTS said:


> We have vouchers as well. I am not sure what  the cancellation policy for  vouchers  is (Air Canada and Westjet, probably different in the States). If those cannot be changed or cancelled we may just use cash or points for the next flight; initially when we start to travel by plane things will probably still not be 100% OK and another wave can come any time. We will use the vouchers when we are completely on the other side of this.


It's not even clear that Canadians can travel to Hawaii now on AC or WS.  There are no approved travel partners in Canada.  I'm glad we canceled for March. I have a feeling it is going to be a very long time before we go back to Hawaii.  Until then, other locations will get our tourist dollars - so we will be using our vouchers for those places.

I did use WestJet credits to book our trip to California for December.  Worked really well and the agent gave us preferred seats at no extra charge.


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## melissy123

I was reading a news article in Maui News.  It said 200 passengers (who had previously tested negative for Covid prior to arrival) coming in to Maui over the weekend voluntarily took another Covid test after arrival in Maui.  Later in the article it mentions new Covid cases for the islands but zero reported for Maui.  

So I’m extrapolating that none of those 200 passengers tested were positive for Covid.





__





						County: About 200 travelers took post-travel test
					

About 200 people out of the thousands of arriving passengers to Maui volunteered to take a second, post-travel test over the weekend, according to county officials. Maui County has been encouraging travelers to “stay healthy and return home healthy” through a free, CARES Act-funded test taken...




					www.mauinews.com


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## lynne

lynne said:


> 4 Tourists Arrive on Big Island Positive With COVID in 3 Days
> 
> 
> Equates to about 1 out of 700 passengers arriving testing positive for COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigislandgazette.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This does not look like a good beginning to tourism opening.
> 
> Through the weekend, a total of 9 passengers have tested positive for COVID at Big Island airports with the mandatory rapid tests on landing.
> 
> All of those passengers were then required to take a PCR test and quarantine. Of those 9, 4 were confirmed positive and 5 were false positive. The Department of Health is monitoring those positive passengers.
> 
> Contact tracing has begun to round up the passengers on United and Hawaiian who sat in the same row and two rows forward/back to quarantine and test those positive-exposed people.
> 
> A person's positivity is reported to their home zip code. So unless these positive people reside on Hawaii County, their positivity won't impact Hawaii's virus counts.


GOOD NEWS!

The  4 positive results from arriving passengers on Thursday have now all tested negative through a follow-up PCR test.  Because of that, the Mayor of Hawaii is thinking of killing the airport testing program and replace it with a procedure that will require passengers to be tested 3 or 4 days after they arrive.


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## klpca

lynne said:


> GOOD NEWS!
> 
> The  4 positive results from arriving passengers on Thursday have now all tested negative through a follow-up PCR test.  Because of that, the Mayor of Hawaii is thinking of killing the airport testing program and replace it with a procedure that will require passengers to be tested 3 or 4 days after they arrive.


I don't doubt you at all (in fact I desperately want this to be true), but I haven't found this info anywhere. Do you have a link?


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## ljmiii

klpca said:


> I don't doubt you at all (in fact I desperately want this to be true), but I haven't found this info anywhere. Do you have a link?


I read it on HawaiiNewsNow









						After false positives, Hawaii County considers nixing post-arrival test for travelers
					

Late Tuesday, Mayor Harry Kim confirmed he’s debating whether to make changes to the program ― or end it all together.




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com


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## klpca

ljmiii said:


> I read it on HawaiiNewsNow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After false positives, Hawaii County considers nixing post-arrival test for travelers
> 
> 
> Late Tuesday, Mayor Harry Kim confirmed he’s debating whether to make changes to the program ― or end it all together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hawaiinewsnow.com


Thanks. I don't know how I missed it!


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## triangulum33

What exactly are the mask/social distancing rules?  
Beat of Hawaii posted this official video and it raises more questions than gives answers.  Do the mask requirements apply only to residents?  Do visitors have masks on at all times when away from their residence?


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## lynne

triangulum33 said:


> What exactly are the mask/social distancing rules?
> Beat of Hawaii posted this official video and it raises more questions than gives answers.  Do the mask requirements apply only to residents?  Do visitors have masks on at all times when away from their residence?


Masks are required for both residents and visitors.  This graph should help:


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## csodjd

lynne said:


> GOOD NEWS!
> 
> The  4 positive results from arriving passengers on Thursday have now all tested negative through a follow-up PCR test.  Because of that, the Mayor of Hawaii is thinking of killing the airport testing program and replace it with a procedure that will require passengers to be tested 3 or 4 days after they arrive.


More broadly, it means of the ~2500 to fly into there, there was not a single false negative in the group. That bodes well for the introduction of tourism not bringing new infections in. Now we just need the tourists to not engage in behavior during their vacation that leads to community spread.


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## lynne

csodjd said:


> More broadly, it means of the ~2500 to fly into there, there was not a single false negative in the group. That bodes well for the introduction of tourism not bringing new infections in. Now we just need the tourists to not engage in behavior during their vacation that leads to community spread.


And to take a test prior to arriving so as not to endanger fellow passengers and residents since there is no way to identify and trace people who have to quarantine and those that have agreed to test prior to arrival.  

Safe Travels First 6+ Days
49,896 screened
42,360 exempted traveler (988 did not test and were exempted from the 14 day quarantine as essential)
6548 into quarantine
1:2 residents/visitors


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## Tamaradarann

So in 6 days there are 6548 arrivals that are subject to quarantine + 988 exempted essential workers. To analyze if the opening has been sucessful the first questions if the virus numbers increase are:

How many residents that were not tested and are quarantining have the disease and spread the it to those in the household that are not quarantined?
How many visitors that were not tested and are required to quarantine have the disease?
How many of the 988 essential workers that are exempted have the disease?

If any of the above have the disease did they contact others?

In 6 days 7536 new possible sources of spread have arrived, does Hawaii have the resources to analyze and trace?


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## turkel

I voted April. Probably wishful thinking but we have 14 days scheduled in April with an expiring credit on Southwest in May. We will test if need be. My personal feeling is if I haven’t gotten Covid at work my odds are pretty darn good that I wont get it once retired. Work has been Covid admission free for a week. Fingers crossed it stays that way. Maui here we come test or no test requirements.


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## bendadin

Has anyone found the prices for PCR? I was finding $150 each. The United test program looked to be $250.


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## klpca

bendadin said:


> Has anyone found the prices for PCR? I was finding $150 each. The United test program looked to be $250.


I am seeing about $150 too. I think that Quest is about $10 cheaper.


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## JeffC

For inter-island travel, lets say Big Island to Kauai, do you need another covid negative test prior to arrival? Assuming you flew into the islands having gotten a negative test. Also, if you fly from the mainland to Honululu and then connect to another Island is that considered inter-island travel?
Thanks


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## JanT

In Texas at CVS it was $139.  We got our results back quickly.  Tested on Wednesday at noon and results were back to us at 1:30 am on Friday morning. 



bendadin said:


> Has anyone found the prices for PCR? I was finding $150 each. The United test program looked to be $250.


----------



## TSPam

JeffC said:


> For inter-island travel, lets say Big Island to Kauai, do you need another covid negative test prior to arrival? Assuming you flew into the islands having gotten a negative test. Also, if you fly from the mainland to Honululu and then connect to another Island is that considered inter-island travel?
> Thanks


Aloha,

a trip from the big island to Kauai needs anegative test or quarantine.
Connections through the Honolulu airport do not count as Interisland travel. A single pre-travel trans-pacific test allows you to fly to Kauai through HNL. Also, Interisland travel to O’ahu does not require a test.
When entering trips in safe travels you do one from the mainland to Honolulu and click exemp and then a second from Honolulu to Lihue


----------



## alexadeparis

dioxide45 said:


> Its isolation makes this possible. Of course it also decimated the primary driver of its economy.


MORE than decimated.


----------



## stslc

klpca said:


> Thanks. I don't know how I missed it!


I arrived on Kauai on Saturday and received an email Wed asking me to go to the Wilcox clinic for a voluntary second test.  I went and they didn't seem like they knew what was going on.  I should have just walked away but I'd like to see this re-opening stick as we have another trip planned in January.  I showed them the email, filled out the paperwork and was tested.  They said 48 hours for results.  A false positive (or real positive) would really screw up getting home so I'm having a little tester's remorse now.  Fingers crossed.


----------



## klpca

stslc said:


> I arrived on Kauai on Saturday and received an email Wed asking me to go to the Wilcox clinic for a voluntary second test.  I went and they didn't seem like they knew what was going on.  I should have just walked away but I'd like to see this re-opening stick as we have another trip planned in January.  I showed them the email, filled out the paperwork and was tested.  They said 48 hours for results.  A false positive (or real positive) would really screw up getting home so I'm having a little tester's remorse now.  Fingers crossed.


Did you have to pay? Because that's the deal breaker for me. I'd take one every day if it would make them feel more comfortable, but there's zero chance that I'm paying that bill.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> So in 6 days there are 6548 arrivals that are subject to quarantine + 988 exempted essential workers. To analyze if the opening has been sucessful the first questions if the virus numbers increase are:


Those are no different than the numbers for the past few months, or actually even less. ~1100/day coming into Hawaii and going into quarantine, I believe is down from the ~3,000 a day that were flying in before Oct. 15 and had to quarantine.


----------



## b2bailey

In Maui now, saw on tv news the story of a man, woman and infant  who had tested on mainland expecting their results would be transmitted. Somehow results were lost. They're stuck in quarantine until a resolution is found. Obvious answer is to take a rapid results test nearby. They are not being allowed to break quarantine to do that. Oh my.


----------



## Tamaradarann

QUOTE="csodjd, post: 2520996, member: 94872"]
Those are no different than the numbers for the past few months, or actually even less. ~1100/day coming into Hawaii and going into quarantine, I believe is down from the ~3,000 a day that were flying in before Oct. 15 and had to quarantine.

The point of my post wasn't to suggest there were a greater number of people coming into Hawaii going into quarantine.  The point was that if the virus starts to spread in greater numbers the focus needs to be on the specific source of the spread rather than broadly paining all the "tourists" as the source of the virus and requiring all arrivals to be quarantined again and closing the economy back down.


----------



## mjm1

lynne said:


> Masks are required for both residents and visitors.  This graph should help:
> 
> View attachment 27807



Do I read this chart correctly, that if you travel from Oahu to Maui you would need to have a negative test result within 72 of departure? So if we fly to Oahu from the mainland we would need a negative test within 72 hours prior to departure to Oahu. Stay 7 nights there, but get another negative test on Oahu within 72 hours of flying to Maui. But if we go to Maui first and then Oahu we would only need a negative test prior to flying to Maui. Is that correct?

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## jabberwocky

mjm1 said:


> Do I read this chart correctly, that if you travel from Oahu to Maui you would need to have a negative test result within 72 of departure? So if we fly to Oahu from the mainland we would need a negative test within 72 hours prior to departure to Oahu. Stay 7 nights there, but get another negative test on Oahu within 72 hours of flying to Maui. But if we go to Maui first and then Oahu we would only need a negative test prior to flying to Maui. Is that correct?


That is my understanding.  Interisland travel *to* Oahu does not require quarantine or a test, but travel to any of the neighboring islands does.


----------



## mjm1

jabberwocky said:


> That is my understanding.  Interisland travel *to* Oahu does not require quarantine or a test, but travel to any of the neighboring islands does.



Thank you. We are planning a trip for next fall and we’re planning to go to Maui after Oahu. Given the current rules, we will reverse the order. Of course the rules could change in the future, assuming they exist at all, but I imagine they will always be more strict going to the less inhabited islands due to less medical facilities, etc. I’m glad I read that chart again now.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## Tamaradarann

mjm1 said:


> Thank you. We are planning a trip for next fall and we’re planning to go to Maui after Oahu. Given the current rules, we will reverse the order. Of course the rules could change in the future, assuming they exist at all, but I imagine they will always be more strict going to the less inhabited islands due to less medical facilities, etc. I’m glad I read that chart again now.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike


Your thinking is correct right now, next fall, which is a year from now, the rules may change, like they have changed a number of times in the last 7 months.  I know with certain timeshare reservations you need to plan a year ahead so your plan is right on.  We are also tentively planning next fall but we must wait until 6 months before to make are plans which will be just to go to Oahu.


----------



## ljmiii

mjm1 said:


> Do I read this chart correctly, that if you travel from Oahu to Maui you would need to have a negative test result within 72 of departure? So if we fly to Oahu from the mainland we would need a negative test within 72 hours prior to departure to Oahu. Stay 7 nights there, but get another negative test on Oahu within 72 hours of flying to Maui. But if we go to Maui first and then Oahu we would only need a negative test prior to flying to Maui. Is that correct?


Yes...though I would be complete gobsmacked if the quarantine rules next fall are identical to what they are now.  Another way to bet is that a non-symptomatic mainlander will find it easier to get a test done on O'ahu than on Maui.

I'm peering into the same crystal ball as I try to decide if O'ahu -> Kauai -> Big Island can happen next summer. Or if I should stay longer on Kauai or go back to O'ahu. No knowing really...just guesses.


----------



## Henry M.

I'm considering going to Maui the whole month of December, but the main thing holding me back is the concern that they will lock down again before I get there. I have Westin Staroptions that would then be significantly restricted if I have to cancel my reservation. I may yet pull the trigger before the airline reservations I have on hold expire. I still need to make arrangements to stay somewhere Dec. 20-Jan. 1, but I have a few options.


----------



## Tamaradarann

ljmiii said:


> Yes...though I would be complete gobsmacked if the quarantine rules next fall are identical to what they are now.  Another way to bet is that a non-symptomatic mainlander will find it easier to get a test done on O'ahu than on Maui.
> 
> I'm peering into the same crystal ball as I try to decide if O'ahu -> Kauai -> Big Island can happen next summer. Or if I should stay longer on Kauai or go back to O'ahu. No knowing really...just guesses.



If this was a first trip to Hawaii I can understand the desire to do multiple islands; we felt the same way.  However, even during normal times during a vacation you lose at least a day or more on each move with packing, travelling, unpacking and new food shopping as well as the additional transportation and left over food costs.  During this coronavirus crisis multiple island trips become even more complicated and costly.  Since I have been to all the islands I would pick one island this year and start to plan a different island for 2022.  We have spent 2 weeks on Kauai in 2010, 2 weeks on Maui in early 2019 and 2 weeks on Hawaii island in December 2019, and still found plenty to do.  We have spent as many as 15 weeks on Oahu during normal times and have never gotten bored.


----------



## ljmiii

Tamaradarann said:


> If this was a first trip to Hawaii I can understand the desire to do multiple islands...


This will be our umpteenth trip, my wife has family and friends on O'ahu and went to school at UH Manoa. We're definitely doing O'ahu and Kauai - I'm 99 44/100% sure we will be able to get a COVID test as a asymptomatic mainlander on O'ahu.

The problem is that it's hard to give up the Big Island. Our eldest is leaving the nest and Hilo is one of her favorite places in Hawaii - she did research into Rapid Ohi'a Death (ROD) there in 2019 and was supposed to again this year. And I really want to visit Volcano NP now that it is reopening post-eruption (and knock on wood post COVID). But last I looked there was only one direct flight from LIH to KOA and none to ITO so we're almost certainly going through HNL. Normally not a problem but I have no idea how much to pad our layover to make sure we make the 2nd leg. And I'm nowhere near as sure about getting tested on Kauai.

All that said, the issue is moot. Last night we had a 'match' on II for a 2nd week at Waiohai and today my wife said, "No". So fates willing we're going to the Big Island come heck or high water.


----------



## Tamaradarann

ljmiii said:


> This will be our umpteenth trip, my wife has family and friends on O'ahu and went to school at UH Manoa. We're definitely doing O'ahu and Kauai - I'm 99 44/100% sure we will be able to get a COVID test as a asymptomatic mainlander on O'ahu.
> 
> The problem is that it's hard to give up the Big Island. Our eldest is leaving the nest and Hilo is one of her favorite places in Hawaii - she did research into Rapid Ohi'a Death (ROD) there in 2019 and was supposed to again this year. And I really want to visit Volcano NP now that it is reopening post-eruption (and knock on wood post COVID). But last I looked there was only one direct flight from LIH to KOA and none to ITO so we're almost certainly going through HNL. Normally not a problem but I have no idea how much to pad our layover to make sure we make the 2nd leg. And I'm nowhere near as sure about getting tested on Kauai.
> 
> All that said, the issue is moot. Last night we had a 'match' on II for a 2nd week at Waiohai and today my wife said, "No". So fates willing we're going to the Big Island come heck or high water.



Your family is more versed than we are in travelling from island to island so I am sure your plans are great and will work out just fine.  By next summer the virus situation could be so much better that all of the hand wringing is moot.  I wish you the best and I hope you are successful in your travels and fully enjoy your trip.


----------



## echino

Another wave is coming...


----------



## WVBaker

echino said:


> View attachment 27867
> 
> Another wave is coming...



Look, another wave.


----------



## cman

Lanai may have to go into lockdown. I really hope they can get things under control.








						Lanai residents told to shelter in place as coronavirus cases grow on rural island
					

State officials are urging Lanai residents to shelter in place as the coronavirus rapidly spreads through the rural island, which started with a handful of infections earlier this week that spiraled into at least 38 cases.




					www.staradvertiser.com


----------



## cman

They're still working out the bugs. Those traveling without results in hand may experience additional delays. The end of this article has some good tips to make sure you're not stuck in quarantine.

*Backlog in the state’s manual COVID-19 test verification process sends thousands of Hawaii travelers to quarantine*









						Backlog in the state’s manual COVID-19 test verification process sends thousands of Hawaii travelers to quarantine
					

Thousands of travelers arriving in Hawaii during the first week of the state’s pre-arrivals testing program have gotten stuck quarantining in paradise because their test results needed a manual review.




					www.staradvertiser.com


----------



## lynne

Kauai is serious about tracking quarantine violators both visitors and residents









						Kauaʽi Police Crack Down on Quarantine Violators
					

Individuals are subject to up to one year in jail and/or up to $5,000 in fines.




					bigislandgazette.com


----------



## geist1223

lynne said:


> Kauai is serious about tracking quarantine violators both visitors and residents
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kauaʽi Police Crack Down on Quarantine Violators
> 
> 
> Individuals are subject to up to one year in jail and/or up to $5,000 in fines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigislandgazette.com



I am not surprised at the number from Florida. My SIL and BIL live in Florida. Many of their neighbors have large yard parties with no masks or social distancing. They now avoid most of their neighbors. Almost all of their neighbors are over 60.


----------



## amy241

geist1223 said:


> I am not surprised at the number from Florida. My SIL and BIL live in Florida. Many of their neighbors have large yard parties with no masks or social distancing. They now avoid most of their neighbors. Almost all of their neighbors are over 60.


I live in south Florida and I can tell you it is terrible here. [Everything opened] too early, creating spread, and the wearing of masks [has not been encouraged.] [redacted] Very sad.

[Mod Note: Edited to comply with forum rules - let's stick to Hawaii Travel topics on the forum, please]


----------



## samara64

If a family arrives to Hawaii and one of them is still waiting for the COVID test result. Will the whole family go to quarantine or only the person missing the result.


----------



## PearlCity

samara64 said:


> If a family arrives to Hawaii and one of them is still waiting for the COVID test result. Will the whole family go to quarantine or only the person missing the result.


Yes. I was checking in at MKO yesterday. It took and hour and a half the line was long! I realized why - because there were parties in this situation and was being given 1 time use keys to stay in their rooms until they could get out of Quarantine. Of course that party i saw was furious and made a huge fuss. But those are the rules right now. I saw one lady complain asking how she is going to eat if she cant leave her room (Grubhub and instacart unfortunately) i felt bad for the employee as she was getting yelled at. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## samara64

So only the one person with no result. Do the others get normal keys.


----------



## Henry M.

I was also told you have to wear a mask hat all times you are outside, even sitting at the beach. The only time you can take it off is if you are in the water, or exercising. If you are just walking on the boardwalk and such, you have to wear a mask, even if there are not any people around. They do check at least some of the beaches and issue citations. This information was about Ka'anapali, on Maui.

I was planning a trip in December, but I may decide not to go under these requirements. I don't mind wearing a mask around the common areas, but I'm not sure I want to lay out on the sand, away from everyone, with a mask on. Same for sitting on the lounges around the pool, though I almost never use the pool.

Correction:
At the Westin resorts, they told me that the whole group had to quarantine until the result was received. At the airport, if the driver is OK, he can still pick up a rental car. If they stop for supplies, the quarantine person has to stay in the car, but apparently they can stop.


----------



## PearlCity

samara64 said:


> So only the one person with no result. Do the others get normal keys.


No it didnt seem like it. The party i saw was angry. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## PearlCity

Henry M. said:


> I was also told you have to wear a mask hat all times you are outside, even sitting at the beach. The only time you can take it off is if you are in the water, or exercising. If you are just walking on the boardwalk and such, you have to wear a mask, even if there are not any people around. They do check at least some of the beaches and issue citations. This information was about Ka'anapali, on Maui.
> 
> I was planning a trip in December, but I may decide not to go under these requirements. I don't mind wearing a mask around the common areas, but I'm not sure I want to lay out on the sand, away from everyone, with a mask on. Same for sitting on the lounges around the pool, though I almost never use the pool.
> 
> At the Westin resorts, they told me that the person with the missing test results was the one that had to quarantine until the result was received, not the whole party. However, I suppose different people might interpret the requirement differently. I can see where the one person could potentially be infected and therefore the whole group should quarantine together until cleared.


The mask rules are unclear by island. I think there is a push to make mask rules clearer as a state but my understanding is yes masks required everywhere even outside. 

As for only person wo missing test needing to quarantine. Im not sure. The rules are so unclear. I have heard of hotels not checking in people at all wo proof of negative test. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## JanT

No, the whole family (or group) are required to remain in quarantine until everyone is cleared.





samara64 said:


> So only the one person with no result. Do the others get normal keys.


----------



## JanT

They have no one to be angry with but themselves.  The rules are clear about what happens if even one person in a group hasn’t received their test results and/or tests positive.  EVERYONE in the group has to quarantine until that person is cleared.  If they didn’t check into all the requirements that’s their fault.

I personally think anyone who shows up to check in that throws a fit like PearlCity witnessed should simply be turned away - refused check in period.   It is not the resorts fault that someone’s test didn’t come in or came back positive.  They don’t have to tolerate abuse by customers that simply didn’t do their research.  And who cares if they ever come back?  If they act like that you know they’re going to act that way during their stay if the slightest thing doesn’t go their way.  Let them walk.  There are plenty of decent people who will truly appreciate the people and beauty of Hawaii.



PearlCity said:


> No it didnt seem like it. The party i saw was angry.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Henry M.

PearlCity said:


> The mask rules are unclear by island. I think there is a push to make mask rules clearer as a state but my understanding is yes masks required everywhere even outside.
> 
> As for only person wo missing test needing to quarantine. Im not sure. The rules are so unclear. I have heard of hotels not checking in people at all wo proof of negative test.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk



I checked again, and this time they told me the whole party has to quarantine at the resort until the test result is received. So far there have been a few instances, but the result usually comes in within a day or so.


----------



## klpca

Henry M. said:


> I was also told you have to wear a mask hat all times you are outside, even sitting at the beach. The only time you can take it off is if you are in the water, or exercising. If you are just walking on the boardwalk and such, you have to wear a mask, even if there are not any people around. They do check at least some of the beaches and issue citations. This information was about Ka'anapali, on Maui.


My experience in San Diego is that people on vacation take vacations from their masks even though our state rule is that you need to wear one when out in public. When we go walking we don't even bother going to beaches where the tourists go because it's close quarters (especially on the boardwalks) and there are a lot of non-mask wearers. It's a very uncomfortable situation for residents as we are the ones who will suffer after all with shutting down businesses, schools etc long after the tourists have gone home since we are on a tiered system that shuts down various businesses when we reach certain levels of infection. That said I think that our college students cause the most problems, not visitors. 

We are grateful to have the opportunity to travel and whatever Hawaii wants us visitors to do, we will do.


----------



## klpca

PearlCity said:


> Yes. I was checking in at MKO yesterday. It took and hour and a half the line was long! I realized why - because there were parties in this situation and was being given 1 time use keys to stay in their rooms until they could get out of Quarantine. Of course that party i saw was furious and made a huge fuss. But those are the rules right now. I saw one lady complain asking how she is going to eat if she cant leave her room (Grubhub and instacart unfortunately) i felt bad for the employee as she was getting yelled at.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


There are quite a few posts on Tripadvisor about visitors who have had issues with testing (results nor received before departure, then needing a manual review by someone on Hawaii and that step taking 4 days). Folks over there are saying don't get on the plane without test results. It's not worth it.


----------



## Henry M.

klpca said:


> ... whatever Hawaii wants us visitors to do, we will do.



I agree. Not all locals want visitors just yet, though. Maybe I'll just wait until the rules loosen up a bit. We have been going every year, sometimes more than once a year for a long time.

I have heard they do patrol some of the beaches on Maui. Penalties are pretty stiff, up to $5,000. I don't know how strict they are at the Ka'anapali beaches.


----------



## Tamaradarann

JanT said:


> They have no one to be angry with but themselves.  The rules are clear about what happens if even one person in a group hasn’t received their test results and/or tests positive.  EVERYONE in the group has to quarantine until that person is cleared.  If they didn’t check into all the requirements that’s their fault.
> 
> I personally think anyone who shows up to check in that throws a fit like PearlCity witnessed should simply be turned away - refused check in period.   It is not the resorts fault that someone’s test didn’t come in or came back positive.  They don’t have to tolerate abuse by customers that simply didn’t do their research.  And who cares if they ever come back?  If they act like that you know they’re going to act that way during their stay if the slightest thing doesn’t go their way.  Let them walk.  There are plenty of decent people who will truly appreciate the people and beauty of Hawaii.



I agree with what your saying here about them checking and following the requirements; we certainly would have.  I also agree that all would have to quarantine if they are in the same unit and/or came in the same car/cab to get to the accomodations.  However, it would be interesting to find out why one person in the group didn't have the test results.  Did they test at the same time or separately?  I would hope that this was the cause of the problem and not that the testing agency just didn't produce the results on a timely basis together.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I hope people can go back to work on the islands.  According to our friends who live on Oahu and moving to Maui, unemployment numbers are high and are catastrophic for families.  Tourism is so important to the economy.


----------



## PearlCity

Lanai is undergoing an outbreak after zero cases all this time https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2020/10/lanai-covid-19-total-tops-60-cases/

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## lynne

PearlCity said:


> Lanai is undergoing an outbreak after zero cases all this time https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2020/10/lanai-covid-19-total-tops-60-cases/
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


It appears that Lanai will ask all visitors to leave by Monday.  Not sure of where they will go and if they will be retested to make sure that they did not get infected from the outbreak on the island.  As far as I know, only Four Seasons is open so possibly they will move them to another Four Seasons Resort within the state.  Nothing published my Maui County so still in flux.


----------



## PearlCity

lynne said:


> It appears that Lanai will ask all visitors to leave by Monday. Not sure of where they will go and if they will be retested to make sure that they did not get infected from the outbreak on the island. As far as I know, only Four Seasons is open so possibly they will move them to another Four Seasons Resort within the state. Nothing published my Maui County so still in flux.


Are there any other four seasons open? Ko olina is still shut. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## lynne

PearlCity said:


> Are there any other four seasons open? Ko olina is still shut.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


So is Hualalai, not sure about Maui


----------



## PearlCity

lynne said:


> So is Hualalai, not sure about Maui


Nope. Checked their website and not reopening until Nov 20th. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## lynne

PearlCity said:


> Nope. Checked their website and not reopening until Nov 20th.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


Unless the visitors want to quarantine, it looks as if they may be heading home by Monday.









						Lanai Stay-At-Home Order Expected Starting On Tuesday
					

Maui Mayor Michael Victorino expects Lanai residents and visitors will be under a mandatory stay-at-home order beginning Tuesday. The order is subject to…




					www.hawaiipublicradio.org


----------



## PearlCity

Tamaradarann said:


> I agree with what your saying here about them checking and following the requirements; we certainly would have. I also agree that all would have to quarantine if they are in the same unit and/or came in the same car/cab to get to the accomodations. However, it would be interesting to find out why one person in the group didn't have the test results. Did they test at the same time or separately? I would hope that this was the cause of the problem and not that the testing agency just didn't produce the results on a timely basis together.


I found this article online. It seems that there are instances where and entire party can go to a company and test but not everyone will get their results at the same time. https://www.kitv.com/story/42813554...ne-due-to-delays-in-pretravel-testing-results

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tamaradarann

PearlCity said:


> I found this article online. It seems that there are instances where and entire party can go to a company and test but not everyone will get their results at the same time. https://www.kitv.com/story/42813554...ne-due-to-delays-in-pretravel-testing-results
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk



While the article certainly points out delays in getting results and that you need to get your results and post them on the Hawaii website before you get on the plane, it doesn't specify if both Sisters got their tests done at the same time at the same locale.  

In summary, the testing before you go system seems to have some problems with delayed results that need to be worked out and providing the results after you arrive seems to be a disaster as far as a smooth enjoyable vacation.


----------



## csodjd

PearlCity said:


> I found this article online. It seems that there are instances where and entire party can go to a company and test but not everyone will get their results at the same time. https://www.kitv.com/story/42813554...ne-due-to-delays-in-pretravel-testing-results
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


We sometimes think of “testing” as this simple process where some person gets a tube, runs the test, and sends back the results. But that’s not how it works. The lab is receiving thousands of specimens to test and track every hour (I don’t recall the numbers, but when I litigated a case against Quest I learned of the staggering number of samples that they process every hour, somewhere on the order of 100,000/hour in a single lab facility). Every sample must be marked and tracked and handled very, very, carefully. Machines have to run. Results checked for validity and logged. There is a massive infrastructure in the labs to handle all the specimens they receive (remember, they get a lot more than just COVID samples in the lab). 

The point is, the specimens of a family don’t get rubber banded together and go through the system together. They get sent into the lab along with blood tests, Pap smears, skin biopsies, urine samples, etc., and individually processed. All kinds of things can happen once in the lab. Tests have to be repeated because a result is inconclusive, for instance. Or one person works faster than another In the lab.


----------



## JanT

Interesting that the article says her husband and sister are free from the 14 day quarantine, because the rules state if anyone in a party is quarantined, then the whole group is to be quarantined.  Is Ko’Olina relaxing the rules for people in this situation? And if so, how are officials going to deal with that?  Either there’s a system in place to protect their islands or there isn’t.  They have to make sure the rules are being enforced but I’m not sure how they really can.

I know of one other instance where it appears a hotel looked the other way in regards to quarantine.  A couple came to Oahu on Oct 13th -two days before the new rules tooK effect.  They had taken a Covid test before they came and had their negative results.  They quarantined for only the first two days and then the hotel told them to go have fun.  WTH?  I was really surprised by that.



PearlCity said:


> I found this article online. It seems that there are instances where and entire party can go to a company and test but not everyone will get their results at the same time. https://www.kitv.com/story/42813554...ne-due-to-delays-in-pretravel-testing-results
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Henry M.

I guess there could be some differing opinions on what a "party" is. If my wife and I travel with our adult child and their spouse, and we have a separate room from them, are we one party or two parties? I can see one couple being quarantined, but not the other if one of the four persons doesn't have the test results.


----------



## PearlCity

JanT said:


> Interesting that the article says her husband and sister are free from the 14 day quarantine, because the rules state if anyone in a party is quarantined, then the whole group is to be quarantined. Is Ko’Olina relaxing the rules for people in this situation? And if so, how are officials going to deal with that? Either there’s a system in place to protect their islands or there isn’t. They have to make sure the rules are being enforced but I’m not sure how they really can.
> 
> I know of one other instance where it appears a hotel looked the other way in regards to quarantine. A couple came to Oahu on Oct 13th -two days before the new rules tooK effect. They had taken a Covid test before they came and had their negative results. They quarantined for only the first two days and then the hotel told them to go have fun. WTH? I was really surprised by that.


I think this is the biggest frustration locals have with the situation and the lack of procedures and information what is and isn't allowed. being provided by the state. Its frustrating. I think we will find out more over the next couple of weeks. What I fear more now is the reports of locals gathering under the "if the tourists come and we're gonna spike anyway i might as well enjoy myself now" attitude and spread it. I also saw a lot of locals gathering at Ko olina this weekend which troubled me. I saw a group of 30 or so at lagoon 4 with what appeared to be a church gathering from what I could hear by the conversation passing by and i saw quite a few unmasked locals on property in groups of larger than 5 (trust me it was worse the 1st week of oct on property-i took my family to paradise cove over the weekend).

Sorry i couldn't meet up yesterday! The pools were getting crowded and we decided to leave. We did see quite a few turtles at the Cove yesterday and my son enjoyed some fishing (catch and release)..



Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## klpca

PearlCity said:


> I think this is the biggest frustration locals have with the situation and the lack of procedures and information what is and isn't allowed. being provided by the state. Its frustrating. I think we will find out more over the next couple of weeks. What I fear more now is the reports of locals gathering under the "if the tourists come and we're gonna spike anyway i might as well enjoy myself now" attitude and spread it. I also saw a lot of locals gathering at Ko olina this weekend which troubled me. I saw a group of 30 or so at lagoon 4 with what appeared to be a church gathering from what I could hear by the conversation passing by and i saw quite a few unmasked locals on property in groups of larger than 5 (trust me it was worse the 1st week of oct on property-i took my family to paradise cove over the weekend).
> 
> Sorry i couldn't meet up yesterday! The pools were getting crowded and we decided to leave. We did see quite a few turtles at the Cove yesterday and my son enjoyed some fishing (catch and release)..
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


I think that there is so much pent up frustration at this point that some of this is absolutely inevitable. It's not good for suppressing the spread but not surprising to see it happen either. Everyone is just up in everyone else's business that it's a bit of a powder keg these days. I have no idea how this can be controlled at this point. I just hope that we can seriously socially distance, and if it takes floating in the lagoons for hours then so be it, lol. 

We haven't seen our in laws since February, and I just canceled both Thanksgiving and Christmas at our house for my extended family. I sent an email on Saturday to my family members and only received one terse reply. They are good with getting together, I am not (mostly because I know that they still aren't worried about transmission  ). Since I always host the holidays I have upset the apple cart. Oh well. Their turn to do all of the work, lol.


----------



## PearlCity

DOH confirms traveler tested positive for COVID-19 coming into Honolulu
					

The Hawaii Department of Health (DOH) confirmed on Oct. 27 that a traveler received a positive COVID-19 test result on arrival in Honolulu.




					www.khon2.com
				




Im a little concerned that the article said passenger information collected if contact tracing is required. Wouldn't they want to contact trace as a precaution? 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## b2bailey

I want to report that my dear granddaughter and her fiance arrived Maui Sunday night. They had all of their ducks in a row, both on paper and electronically. She texted at me at 9:05 pm when they landed. Next text, at 9:30 said "Got bags, headed to rental car shuttle." Amazing!


----------



## stslc

b2bailey said:


> I want to report that my dear granddaughter and her fiance arrived Maui Sunday night. They had all of their ducks in a row, both on paper and electronically. She texted at me at 9:05 pm when they landed. Next text, at 9:30 said "Got bags, headed to rental car shuttle." Amazing!


Following the directions to a T is the Key.  Every post I've seen here and on Social Media where people were sent home or to quarantine had one or more elements missing.


----------



## csodjd

stslc said:


> Following the directions to a T is the Key.  Every post I've seen here and on Social Media where people were sent home or to quarantine had one or more elements missing.


Some (many?) people find following directions difficult. 

Reminds me of getting our updated California license so we could use it for flying. I heard all these horror stories, including from my brother, about how screwed up the system was, the DMV, etc. My wife and I went right though without a hitch. We just made sure we had exactly what they said we needed to have, organized and ready for them.


----------



## lynne

Kauai visitor tests positive for COVID-19 after twice testing negative
					

Kauai health officials today reported a new positive case of COVID-19 from an adult, female visitor who has been placed in isolation.




					www.staradvertiser.com


----------



## Blues

csodjd said:


> Reminds me of getting our updated California license so we could use it for flying. I heard all these horror stories, including from my brother, about how screwed up the system was, the DMV, etc. My wife and I went right though without a hitch. We just made sure we had exactly what they said we needed to have, organized and ready for them.



You must have gone *after* California changed the rules.  They originally said they needed only one item documenting your address -- utility bill, etc.  My wife went in with two (or three) pieces anyway.  They only wrote down one in their records.  So of course, once California realized that they didn't meet Federal standards and should have required two, my wife had to provide a 2nd type of proof (which, CA decided, could include responding to the letter requesting more proof, since that means you received it at the documented address.  What a zoo!)

Point being, following directions to a *T* is no guarantee of satisfying a governmental agency :-(


----------



## lynne

"This is a traveler who followed both the mandatory and voluntary testing programs and still tested positive days later," said Kaua‘i District Health Officer Dr. Janet Berreman. "This case shows us that travelers who become infected near or after the pre-travel test may not test positive for several days after their arrival. For best results, the preferable time to take a post-travel test would be about a week after arrival. We also understand people may not be on island that long and in those cases, a test three days after arrival is encouraged." 


			https://www.kauai.gov/Portals/0/Mayor/PIO/NR102820MO.pdf?ver=2020-10-28-112234-357


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## csodjd

lynne said:


> "This is a traveler who followed both the mandatory and voluntary testing programs and still tested positive days later," said Kaua‘i District Health Officer Dr. Janet Berreman. "This case shows us that travelers who become infected near or after the pre-travel test may not test positive for several days after their arrival. For best results, the preferable time to take a post-travel test would be about a week after arrival. We also understand people may not be on island that long and in those cases, a test three days after arrival is encouraged."
> 
> 
> https://www.kauai.gov/Portals/0/Mayor/PIO/NR102820MO.pdf?ver=2020-10-28-112234-357


The appropriate thing is to continue to require masks and social distancing and other routine mitigation requirements to prevent the occasional "slippage" from being an issue. They cannot set a bar that every person with infection must be discovered. The point is to prevent spread.


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## klpca

csodjd said:


> The appropriate thing is to continue to require masks and social distancing and other routine mitigation requirements to prevent the occasional "slippage" from being an issue. They cannot set a bar that every person with infection must be discovered. The point is to prevent spread.


Exactly. I posted in another thread (I think) that we haven't really seen big spikes being blamed on our untested tourists. I was surprised honestly. Our college students have had more impact because surprise, surprise...kids party and let down their guard. Social distancing, masks, and basic hygiene will give us the best shot at preventing the spread when traveling to Hawaii. Easy enough to do.


----------



## MULTIZ321

Whoops. Passenger boards plane, flies to Hawaii with COVID 19. 










						Whoops. Passenger boards plane, flies to Hawaii with COVID-19.
					

A passenger boarding a Honolulu-bound flight with a




					www.sfgate.com
				



.


Richard


----------



## PearlCity

MULTIZ321 said:


> Whoops. Passenger boards plane, flies to Hawaii with COVID 19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whoops. Passenger boards plane, flies to Hawaii with COVID-19.
> 
> 
> A passenger boarding a Honolulu-bound flight with a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sfgate.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> Richard


Yes this is one of the main concerns residents had about reopening. Then there is the false sense of security tourists feel with the negative test and not needing to wear a mask. We'll have to see how this plays out. I hope we can keep COVID under control but wouldn't be surprised if we can't. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## csodjd

PearlCity said:


> Yes this is one of the main concerns residents had about reopening. Then there is the false sense of security tourists feel with the negative test and not needing to wear a mask. We'll have to see how this plays out. I hope we can keep COVID under control but wouldn't be surprised if we can't.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


I think the latter concern is a more valid one. I'd like to see the State of Hawaii put a professionally produced public service announcement together that plays on every flight into Hawaii explaining in simple terms what the rules are, and why they are. Help people understand that the ability to enjoy their vacation depends on them, and everyone else, following simple rules like wearing masks, because testing is helpful, but imperfect.


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## PearlCity

Yes i think there are local groups pushing for that. We have a captuve audience on the planes. Hopefully the state does this soon. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## Tamaradarann

klpca said:


> Exactly. I posted in another thread (I think) that we haven't really seen big spikes being blamed on our untested tourists. I was surprised honestly. Our college students have had more impact because surprise, surprise...kids party and let down their guard. Social distancing, masks, and basic hygiene will give us the best shot at preventing the spread when traveling to Hawaii. Easy enough to do.



I agree with what you have said here about students being in close contact with other students, partying and letting their guard down.  The State University of NY has issued a directive to all 64 branches of the State University that before the students that live on campus can go home for Thanksgiving they MUST test negatative for the virus or they must stay quarantined on campus to protect Parents and Kapuna as well as others that they will come in contact with during the Thanksgiving Day Holiday.  Then the schools will be closed for the remainder of the semester to on campus classes and school with continue remotely.  My Son and Grandson that attend Universities have been living home and taking all of their classes remotely so that will not be an issue for them.


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## csodjd

MULTIZ321 said:


> Whoops. Passenger boards plane, flies to Hawaii with COVID 19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whoops. Passenger boards plane, flies to Hawaii with COVID-19.
> 
> 
> A passenger boarding a Honolulu-bound flight with a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sfgate.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Richard











						Post-arrival surveillance testing finds a handful of Hawaii travelers with COVID-19
					

Secondary, post-arrival tests conducted through the surveillance testing program are voluntary.




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com
				




"Out of 9,323 tests conducted so far, Green said, six passengers tested positive for COVID-19. That translates into 1 out 1,553 passengers ― lower than what the state had anticipated.

If that rate holds, it would mean that roughly 50 of the more than 82,000 travelers who have come into the state through the pre-travel testing program since it’s launch Oct. 15 have been positive for coronavirus ― even though they tested negative before departure."

This is actually considerably fewer than I calculated would arrive and probably reflects the self-selection of people coming to Hawaii being a low-risk group generally. As long as those 50 or so don't trigger community spread, which by most measures they should not, it's inconsequential to the overall plan going forward.


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## lynne

Another Kauai visitor has tested positive after testing negative on arrival - 4 active cases all related to mainland travel (2 visitors/2 residents) community spread will not be far behind









						Visitor hospitalized, tests positive for COVID-19 on Kauai
					

Contact tracers identified the close contacts of an adult male visitor who tested positive for COVID-19 on Kauai.




					www.khon2.com


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## csodjd

lynne said:


> Another Kauai visitor has tested positive after testing negative on arrival - 4 active cases all related to mainland travel (2 visitors/2 residents) community spread will not be far behind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Visitor hospitalized, tests positive for COVID-19 on Kauai
> 
> 
> Contact tracers identified the close contacts of an adult male visitor who tested positive for COVID-19 on Kauai.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.khon2.com


There are important questions there IF there is community spread.
1. Will that spread come from the visitors, the residents, or both?

This is more political than medical, because a person is a person. But in terms of reopening the tourism industry, allowing visitors, avoiding need for quarantine rules, enforcement of rules, etc., it's important to know which "kind" of person led to community spread.

2. Will there be/is there good contact tracing allowing the scope of the spread to be quickly ascertained and stopped?

It is impossible, without closing the island, to keep all COVID out. The keys are making it less likely (testing) and preventing much spread when it happens (tracing). This is epidemiology 101. Test and trace, isolating the infection and ending the spread.


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## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> Post-arrival surveillance testing finds a handful of Hawaii travelers with COVID-19
> 
> 
> Secondary, post-arrival tests conducted through the surveillance testing program are voluntary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hawaiinewsnow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Out of 9,323 tests conducted so far, Green said, six passengers tested positive for COVID-19. That translates into 1 out 1,553 passengers ― lower than what the state had anticipated.
> 
> If that rate holds, it would mean that roughly 50 of the more than 82,000 travelers who have come into the state through the pre-travel testing program since it’s launch Oct. 15 have been positive for coronavirus ― even though they tested negative before departure."
> 
> This is actually considerably fewer than I calculated would arrive and probably reflects the self-selection of people coming to Hawaii being a low-risk group generally. As long as those 50 or so don't trigger community spread, which by most measures they should not, it's inconsequential to the overall plan going forward.




What is the basis for the part of your statement, "by most measures they should not"?


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## DannyTS

csodjd said:


> Post-arrival surveillance testing finds a handful of Hawaii travelers with COVID-19
> 
> 
> Secondary, post-arrival tests conducted through the surveillance testing program are voluntary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hawaiinewsnow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Out of 9,323 tests conducted so far, Green said, six passengers tested positive for COVID-19. That translates into 1 out 1,553 passengers ― lower than what the state had anticipated.
> 
> If that rate holds, it would mean that roughly 50 of the more than 82,000 travelers who have come into the state through the pre-travel testing program since it’s launch Oct. 15 have been positive for coronavirus ― even though they tested negative before departure."
> 
> This is actually considerably fewer than I calculated would arrive and probably reflects the self-selection of people coming to Hawaii being a low-risk group generally. As long as those 50 or so don't trigger community spread, which by most measures they should not, it's inconsequential to the overall plan going forward.


You expected around 3-5% to test positive. But anyway, since we know the tests are oversensitive, possibly none of the 5 that tested positive is actually shedding the virus.  I wish they disclosed the number of reiteration needed for those who tested positive, it would be very valuable information


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## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> What is the basis for the part of your statement, "by most measures they should not"?


Based on reporting, Hawaii's community spread has been within families and other groups of residents. Tourists aren't going to be attending Church services, or mingling in large groups in the way those that live in Hawaii are likely to. Tourists are not likely to attend "superspreader" events. Many of the rules/restrictions in place are specifically designed to bar people from gathering in the environments most likely to lead to community spread. If hotels and other tourist destinations do their job of enforcing mask rules and social distancing, the opportunity for a tourist to trigger spread is notably less than that of a resident.


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## csodjd

DannyTS said:


> You expected around 3-5% to test positive. But anyway, since we know the tests are oversensitive, possibly none of the 5 that tested positive is actually shedding the virus.  I wish they disclosed the number of reiteration needed for those who tested positive, it would be very valuable information


I didn't "expect," I used that as a likely worst-case scenario. I also consistently have said that those going to Hawaii are a lower-risk subset of the population and that the positivity rate in that subset is likely well below the "ordinary" rate. Nonetheless, in terms of calculating likely numbers or risk, I used the higher 3-5%.


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## Kapolei

amy241 said:


> The article states a couple of restaurants on Kauai are refusing to serve tourists in dining rooms:
> 
> “Saenz Ohana Breakfast in Princeville posted Friday that it would only allow visitors to order online and pick up and that only residents with local state IDs would be allowed to order, sit and eat.
> 
> “Visitors we are sorry for the inconvenience but we, as a island, are not ready for opening now,” the post said. “(Our) plan is to keep our area safe of travelers so the locals can have somewhere to feel safe eating not crowded by visitors that may or may not be COVID positive.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Kauai restaurants ban tourists from dining rooms
> 
> 
> Two restaurants on the north shore of Kauai have posted social media notices that they won’t be serving visitors, who arrive through the state’s pre-arrivals testing program, in their dining rooms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.staradvertiser.com



I hope this gets sorted out.


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## csodjd

This is a graph showing one of the key data points for tracking the impact of opening to tourists. As can be readily seen, so far (two weeks into it) there is no increase in case rates, and that's particularly notable given the skyrocketing case rate nationally (from a 7-day average of 40k/day to 80k/day in the past 30 days). Also, the infection rate has been a steady 1.8%, which is lower than it was before tourism had restarted.

Basically, Hawaii has been, so far, completely unaffected by either the "third wave" of infection gripping much of the US, or by opening to tourists.





Here is the positivity rate:




The other key data point is hospitalizations, because that is basically test-independent. It also is showing no signs at this point of any increase, and is instead steadily declining. Hawaii reports 8 COVID patients (out of 144 total) in an ICU presently.













						State of Hawaii | Hawaii Emergency Management Agency
					

The Hawaii Emergency Management Agency COVID-19 Information Hub, in support of the Department of Health, has been established to share data with local, state, and federal partners and keep our community informed about the coronavirus (COVID-19).



					hawaiicovid19.com


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## PearlCity

csodjd said:


> This is a graph showing one of the key data points for tracking the impact of opening to tourists. As can be readily seen, so far (two weeks into it) there is no increase in case rates, and that's particularly notable given the skyrocketing case rate nationally (from a 7-day average of 40k/day to 80k/day in the past 30 days). Also, the infection rate has been a steady 1.8%, which is lower than it was before tourism had restarted.
> 
> Basically, Hawaii has been, so far, completely unaffected by either the "third wave" of infection gripping much of the US, or by opening to tourists.
> 
> View attachment 28147
> 
> Here is the positivity rate:
> View attachment 28149
> 
> The other key data point is hospitalizations, because that is basically test-independent. It also is showing no signs at this point of any increase, and is instead steadily declining. Hawaii reports 8 COVID patients (out of 144 total) in an ICU presently.
> 
> View attachment 28148
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> State of Hawaii | Hawaii Emergency Management Agency
> 
> 
> The Hawaii Emergency Management Agency COVID-19 Information Hub, in support of the Department of Health, has been established to share data with local, state, and federal partners and keep our community informed about the coronavirus (COVID-19).
> 
> 
> 
> hawaiicovid19.com


I hope the trends continue. I really want my kids back in school. Right now distance learning is hard on them and me. There was a fear tourists would bring the virus back. I hope this trend can continue. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> Based on reporting, Hawaii's community spread has been within families and other groups of residents. Tourists aren't going to be attending Church services, or mingling in large groups in the way those that live in Hawaii are likely to. Tourists are not likely to attend "superspreader" events. Many of the rules/restrictions in place are specifically designed to bar people from gathering in the environments most likely to lead to community spread. If hotels and other tourist destinations do their job of enforcing mask rules and social distancing, the opportunity for a tourist to trigger spread is notably less than that of a resident.



You are probably right about that since the typical tourist activities that would generate large gatherings such as Luaus, Boat Trips, Island Tours etc. have not opened.  Also some of the activities that we would attend are also not opened such as Concerts, Live Theatre, Movie Festivals, Street Festivals etc. are also not opened.


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## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> You are probably right about that since the typical tourist activities that would generate large gatherings such as Luaus, Boat Trips, Island Tours etc. have not opened.  Also some of the activities that we would attend are also not opened such as Concerts, Live Theatre, Movie Festivals, Street Festivals etc. are also not opened.


Exactly. And they are closed precisely to prevent community spread. Those things will come back when there's an effective vaccine.


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## overthehill

Governor Ige’s program which allows visitors to avoid the mandatory 14day quarantine finally took effect October 15th, the start date having been postponed twice.
Details can be found at www.travelhawaii. For those not familiar with the waiver program, you must have a Negative Covid test from a state approved provider (listed on their web site) within 72 hours of arrival in the Islands. Each person must set up their own account, providing information about dates, times, fights,lodging, phone numbers, etc.
Within 24 hours of arrival, you must go on line and answer health questions in order to receive a QR code which wil be checked upon arrival.
If going to the Big Island, you will have to go through another test (no cost) administered at the airport before you pick up your luggage. You will be given a test results form which car rental companies and your place of lodging will require be presented.
There are few tourists in Kona and none in Waikoloa. As of yesterday WIkoloa was dead with all timeshares and hotels closed. In Kona, the Wyndham Kona Hawaiian Resort is gradually opening, only 30 units occupied out of 148 the week of October 23rd. The resort plans on more arrivals beginning October 31st. Most other timeshares are closed. 
Many long time restaurants are closed permanently while others are closed temporarily, offering take out and a few with limited indoor seating. 
Masks are required in all building and whenever out in public near others. As on the mainland, many rude people aren’t wearing masks and don’t carry one. Please have one with you and put it on when around others. Thank you.
Tourist activities are shut down since there aren’t enough tourists to justify opening. Lots of people in tourist related services are laid off.
With all this, the locals are gracious and thrilled visitors are coming back, especially those visitors who respect Hawaiian customs.
Aloha


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## Henry M.

For those on Maui right now, what is the mask-wearing practice at the Ka'anapali resort beaches? Is everyone wearing a mask laying on their towel? 50%? Nobody?


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## csodjd

Henry M. said:


> For those on Maui right now, what is the mask-wearing practice at the Ka'anapali resort beaches? Is everyone wearing a mask laying on their towel? 50%? Nobody?


I think the more relevant question is, are they wearing masks where they interact with others or where they present a risk to others?


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## controller1

Henry M. said:


> For those on Maui right now, what is the mask-wearing practice at the Ka'anapali resort beaches? Is everyone wearing a mask laying on their towel? 50%? Nobody?



Are you advocating people should wear their mask when laying on their towel at the pool or beach?


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## DeniseM

I think the more relevant question is:  What is the mask law by the beach and pool?


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## csodjd

DeniseM said:


> I think the more relevant question is:  What is the mask law by the beach and pool?


I believe the answer is in here:



			https://governor.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/2010013-COM_Public-Health-Emergency-Rules-October-1-2020-distribution-signed.pdf
		


My review doesn’t find any exception to the mask use requirements for beach or pool unless the activity would get the mask wet. There is, however, a rather wide loophole: a mask isn’t required when eating or drinking. So if you’re sitting on the beach with a water bottle and sipping....


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## TSPam

At Marriott Waiohai they required masks except in the pool and in the water. They specifically said on the way to the pool or washrooms or in public places. Most people walking about were wearing masks but people on chairs by the quiet pool were not. We left there on Wednesday and it seemed like visitors coming the second week of pre-travel testing were maybe less careful then the people the first week. I hope that is not a trend.

we have moved to the big island and are in quarantine now


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## klpca

TSPam said:


> At Marriott Waiohai they required masks except in the pool and in the water. They specifically said on the way to the pool or washrooms or in public places. Most people walking about were wearing masks but people on chairs by the quiet pool were not. We left there on Wednesday and it seemed like visitors coming the second week of pre-travel testing were maybe less careful then the people the first week. I hope that is not a trend.
> 
> we have moved to the big island and are in quarantine now


I'm not seeing much mask compliance honestly. 50/50 at best. Not on the beach at all. I'm not surprised based upon my non scientific survey around San Diego. That said there was no communication about the rules either, aside from a statement upon arrival saying that "we are a mask wearing island" or something similar.


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## Henry M.

controller1 said:


> Are you advocating people should wear their mask when laying on their towel at the pool or beach?



I'm not advocating anything. I don't want to debate what is right or what is wrong. I'm just interested in knowing what is actually going on in Maui and specifically the Ka'anapali area. I would like to read what the current practices are. I prefer to go with the flow and decide whether it is worth booking the airline reservations that I have. I want to hear what people are actually seeing at the resorts in Ka'anapali.

The rules I've seen say you don't need to wear a mask if:

1. At or inside a private residence.
2. Inside a private automobile, provided the only occupants are members of the same household or residence.
3. Inside a hotel, motel, or commercial lodging establishment guest room, or inside any apartment.
4. Of persons who cannot wear a mask or facial covering due to an existing medical condition.
5. Of an individual who is hearing impaired or an individual who is communicating with an individual who is hearing impaired.
6. Where federal or state safety or health regulations prohibit the wearing of facial coverings.
7. Of persons actively engaged in strenuous outdoor physical activity, provided adequate social distancing is both possible and practiced.
8. Of persons swimming or engaged in other activities that may cause the facial covering to become wet.
9. While persons are actively eating, drinking or smoking.
10. While a person is receiving services that require access to that person’s nose or mouth. Businesses or designated operations shall refuse to allow entry to persons not wearing face coverings, unless an exception applies under this section.

I suppose you could argue 8 if you are near the water, but that is subject to debate if you are sitting in the sand. You could also argue 7 if you are walking briskly enough to break a sweat, even if not actually running. However, regardless of rules posted somewhere, my interest is in hearing what is actually happening from those currently there.


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## lynne

Cases #65 and #66. Handled the way it’s supposed to: close contacts from previous infections identified and quarantined. Tested positive. Stopped the spread. Thanks to those quarantined for choosing to be tested.  





__ https://www.facebook.com/CountyofKauai/posts/4624551057617926


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## PearlCity

DeniseM said:


> I think the more relevant question is: What is the mask law by the beach and pool?


There is a push for a clearer statewide mask mandate so hopefully changes are clearer..









						Gov. Ige and county mayors move forward with statewide mask mandate
					

The push to have a statewide mask mandate moves forward as county mayors met with the governor on Friday to discuss the issue.




					www.khon2.com
				





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## HGVC Lover

Less travelers will now take second Covid-19 test at KOA after arrival.

https://www.westhawaiitoday.com/202...reening-no-change-to-testing-at-hilo-airport/


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## wannagotoo

In Kaanapali now. At resort everyone is wearing a mask except those sitting around the pool, elevators limited to one person or members of the same family. A "local" thanked us for wearing a mask, we were walking on the front grass. On the walk from Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas to Whaler's, 95% of people wearing mask. Runners weren't. We hooked the mask to the sun glasses and took it off when noone around, always replaced it when nearing other people. Others seemed to be doing the same.


----------



## csodjd

wannagotoo said:


> In Kaanapali now. At resort everyone is wearing a mask except those sitting around the pool, elevators limited to one person or members of the same family. A "local" thanked us for wearing a mask, we were walking on the front grass. On the walk from Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas to Whaler's, 95% of people wearing mask. Runners weren't. We hooked the mask to the sun glasses and took it off when noone around, always replaced it when nearing other people. Others seemed to be doing the same.


What's open at Whaler's Village? Are restaurants open along the walk?


----------



## Henry M.

What are people sitting on the beach, near the water doing?


----------



## b2bailey

Henry M. said:


> What are people sitting on the beach, near the water doing?


Are you asking about mask usage?


----------



## eyedude

Henry M. said:


> What are people sitting on the beach, near the water doing?



This is from a news article about the mask mandate:  

_Thinking of getting a tan while sunbathing on Maui this winter? Not without a mask, according to county officials.

Maui County Managing Director Sandy Baz clarified mask rules during a county news conference Monday, saying that masks must be worn while sedentary on the beach or at a pool. 
“If you’re laying on a beach, getting a tan, unfortunately you’ll get a nice tan across the middle of your face,” he said. “You won’t need to put sunblock there, just around your eyes.”

Democratic Gov. David Ige on Monday called for citations similar to tickets written for minor traffic infractions, which carry fines but are not treated as criminal offenses, The Hawaii Tribune-Herald reported._


----------



## Henry M.

b2bailey said:


> Are you asking about mask usage?


Yes. I know w what is written and quoted as rules. I would like to know what is actually observed by people actually there on the beaches at the Westin timeshares and in Ka'anapali in general.


----------



## b2bailey

Henry M. said:


> Yes. I know w what is written and quoted as rules. I would like to know what is actually observed by people actually there on the beaches at the Westin timeshares and in Ka'anapali in general.


I was there recently and observed 95% cooperation with mask wearing while walking on boardwalk between Hyatt and Sheraton end, and walking through any property. Walking along th waters edge, perhaps 50%, but it wasn't crowded. As for those sitting on the beach, by the pool, or in the water, I didn't even notice -- and I wasn't wearing mine at waters edge most of the time. And the chairs were spaced widely apart.


----------



## Henry M.

Thanks!


----------



## wannagotoo

What's open in Whaler's: Monkey Pod still closed but Hula Grill open. Starbucks on end of walkway open Fri, Sat, Sunday. ABC store still closed along with Honolulu cookie comany, coffee store, some retail. Gelato shop opened 2 days ago but Haagen Daz not open yet, Yogurt store had BK filing on front window.They are in the process of opening more. People are good about wearing masks but it seems that the newer the crowd, the less masks are used. Older locals use the mask all the time, not so for the younger adults. Masks not used at pool or down at beach if you are sitting down. When we walked along the beach fewer of the people wearing masks when walking. On walkway, Castaways still closed and Duke's open along with Paiolo (bar at WKORV).


----------



## lynne

For those who live on the west coast and are planning travel to Hawaii









						Coronavirus: Case surge spurs travel, restaurant curbs
					

Visitors and residents returning to the three West Coast states urged to self-quarantine 14 days.




					www.mercurynews.com


----------



## csodjd

lynne said:


> For those who live on the west coast and are planning travel to Hawaii
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus: Case surge spurs travel, restaurant curbs
> 
> 
> Visitors and residents returning to the three West Coast states urged to self-quarantine 14 days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mercurynews.com


Alternatively, one can travel from the west coast to Hawaii and avoid the quarantine on return by simply not returning.


----------



## Henry M.

Henry M. said:


> The rules I've seen say you don't need to wear a mask if:
> 
> 1. At or inside a private residence.
> 2. Inside a private automobile, provided the only occupants are members of the same household or residence.
> 3. Inside a hotel, motel, or commercial lodging establishment guest room, or inside any apartment.
> 4. Of persons who cannot wear a mask or facial covering due to an existing medical condition.
> 5. Of an individual who is hearing impaired or an individual who is communicating with an individual who is hearing impaired.
> 6. Where federal or state safety or health regulations prohibit the wearing of facial coverings.
> 7. Of persons actively engaged in strenuous outdoor physical activity, provided adequate social distancing is both possible and practiced.
> 8. Of persons swimming or engaged in other activities that may cause the facial covering to become wet.
> 9. While persons are actively eating, drinking or smoking.
> 10. While a person is receiving services that require access to that person’s nose or mouth. Businesses or designated operations shall refuse to allow entry to persons not wearing face coverings, unless an exception applies under this section.



Below are the new statewide rules put out by Gov. Ige as of Nov. 16, 2020. It seems you are exempted from wearing a mask outdoors if you can keep at all times a physical distance of 6 ft from others not part of the same household/living unit/residence. Strenuous physical activity or getting is not mentioned anymore since the distance requirement outdoor seems to cover that too. 
​_All individuals shall wear face coverings over their noses and mouths when in public settings. The only exceptions to this requirement are:_​
_Individuals with medical conditions or disabilities where the wearing of a face covering may pose a health or safety risk to the individual;_
_Children under the age of 5;_
_While working at a desk or work station and not actively engaged with other employees, customers, or visitors, provided that the individual’s desk or workstation is not located in a common or shared area and physical distancing of at least six (6) feet is maintained;_
_While eating, drinking, smoking, as permitted by applicable law;_
_Inside private automobiles, provided the only occupants are members of the same household/living unit/residence;_
_While receiving services allowed under a State or county order, rule, or proclamation that require access to that individual’s nose or mouth;_
_Where federal or state safety or health regulations, or a financial institution’s policy (based on security concerns), prohibit the wearing of facial coverings;_
_Individuals who are communicating with the hearing impaired while actively communicating (e.g., signing or lip reading);_
_First responders (police, fire fighters, lifeguards, etc.) to the extent that wearing face coverings may impair or impede the safety of the first responder in the performance of his/her duty;_
_While outdoors when physical distance of six (6) feet from other individuals (who are not members of the same household/living unit/residence) can be maintained at all times; and_
_As specifically allowed by a provision of a State or county COVID-19 related order, rule, or proclamation._


----------



## klpca

Henry M. said:


> Below are the new statewide rules put out by Gov. Ige as of Nov. 16, 2020. It seems you are exempted from wearing a mask outdoors if you can keep at all times a physical distance of 6 ft from others not part of the same household/living unit/residence. Strenuous physical activity or getting is not mentioned anymore since the distance requirement outdoor seems to cover that too.
> ​_All individuals shall wear face coverings over their noses and mouths when in public settings. The only exceptions to this requirement are:_​
> _Individuals with medical conditions or disabilities where the wearing of a face covering may pose a health or safety risk to the individual;_
> _Children under the age of 5;_
> _While working at a desk or work station and not actively engaged with other employees, customers, or visitors, provided that the individual’s desk or workstation is not located in a common or shared area and physical distancing of at least six (6) feet is maintained;_
> _While eating, drinking, smoking, as permitted by applicable law;_
> _Inside private automobiles, provided the only occupants are members of the same household/living unit/residence;_
> _While receiving services allowed under a State or county order, rule, or proclamation that require access to that individual’s nose or mouth;_
> _Where federal or state safety or health regulations, or a financial institution’s policy (based on security concerns), prohibit the wearing of facial coverings;_
> _Individuals who are communicating with the hearing impaired while actively communicating (e.g., signing or lip reading);_
> _First responders (police, fire fighters, lifeguards, etc.) to the extent that wearing face coverings may impair or impede the safety of the first responder in the performance of his/her duty;_
> _While outdoors when physical distance of six (6) feet from other individuals (who are not members of the same household/living unit/residence) can be maintained at all times; and_
> _As specifically allowed by a provision of a State or county COVID-19 related order, rule, or proclamation._


I am glad to see it explained clearly. We were unsure of the exact rules so just wore one whenever we were outside - even walking or hiking - unless we were clearly all by ourselves. Masking there was a lot more uncomfortable there between the temps and the humidity. Most everyone that we saw was similarly masked except for some exceptions on the resort grounds. We saw little mask wearing at the grills, on the beach etc. On the beach it didn't bother me (and I only noticed it because I felt like a weirdo wearing a mask since no one else was) but the grill made me uncomfortable since there were a lot of people there. There were people actively grilling plus those who were waiting, and nothing was cleaned between uses - so if someone were to cough into their hand then lift the grill it's not clean for the next user. 

We were on an interisland flight where a young woman was passive aggressively not wearing her mask. The flight attendant reminded her nicely a couple of times (she would remove it the minute he turned his back) but eventually he was very stern about her following the airline rules when she started to get belligerent about the rule. Then he pretty much hovered near her for the entire 30 min flight and asked her to keep her mask on. It was interesting to watch - he just wasn't having it.


----------



## PearlCity

klpca said:


> I am glad to see it explained clearly. We were unsure of the exact rules so just wore one whenever we were outside - even walking or hiking - unless we were clearly all by ourselves. Masking there was a lot more uncomfortable there between the temps and the humidity. Most everyone that we saw was similarly masked except for some exceptions on the resort grounds. We saw little mask wearing at the grills, on the beach etc. On the beach it didn't bother me (and I only noticed it because I felt like a weirdo wearing a mask since no one else was) but the grill made me uncomfortable since there were a lot of people there. There were people actively grilling plus those who were waiting, and nothing was cleaned between uses - so if someone were to cough into their hand then lift the grill it's not clean for the next user.
> 
> We were on an interisland flight where a young woman was passive aggressively not wearing her mask. The flight attendant reminded her nicely a couple of times (she would remove it the minute he turned his back) but eventually he was very stern about her following the airline rules when she started to get belligerent about the rule. Then he pretty much hovered near her for the entire 30 min flight and asked her to keep her mask on. It was interesting to watch - he just wasn't having it.


I wondered about how clean the grill area was! When we stayed we avoided the grill on the weekends. Grilled on a Tuesday night or something. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## csodjd

PearlCity said:


> I wondered about how clean the grill area was! When we stayed we avoided the grill on the weekends. Grilled on a Tuesday night or something.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


I keep a glass of wine in my hands at all times while grilling! Not to avoid a mask... but because one should be drinking wine at all times while grilling.


----------



## MULTIZ321

BREAKING: Pre -Travel COVID -19 Test Results Must Be in Hand Prior to Departure for Hawai'i.










						BREAKING: Pre-Travel COVID-19 Test Results Must Be In Hand Prior to Departure for Hawai‘i | Maui Now
					

Governor David Ige announced today that starting on Nov. 24, travelers wishing to bypass the 14-day mandatory quarantine must have their COVID-19 test results – from a trusted testing partner – prior to departure for the State of Hawaiʻi.




					mauinow.com
				





Richard


----------



## bnoble

With each passing day, our decision to cancel our late December/January trip to Kauai is looking better and better. Super disappointing, but it was the right thing to do for us. We will try again in August.









						Kauai Mayor Derek Kawakami requests to opt out of state’s pre-arrivals testing program, citing rising COVID cases
					

Kauai Mayor Derek Kawakami is requesting to opt-out of Hawaii’s pre-arrivals testing program after dozens of new COVID-19 cases reached the island.




					www.staradvertiser.com


----------



## TravelTime

I just got an email stating the following:

This past week has been another busy one in terms of new announcements in Hawaii. Most critically, as you now likely know, new travel restrictions effective November 24th require all travelers to have their negative test results prior to departure. We understand your frustrations with this new requirement, and we are continuing to monitor the situation closely. Based on traveler and industry feedback thus far, including multiple concerns about how quickly that policy was enacted by the Governor, we suspect further adjustments to the pre-travel testing program are forthcoming.

Unfortunately, there are some new developments that may further complicate some traveler's plans. Notably, several pre-travel trusted testing partners are experiencing testing delays and/or availability issues. We've updated our list of partners accordingly. However, one partner, in particular, CVS, who was one of the state’s larger trusted-testing partners, has begun telling Hawaii travelers that they should make other testing plans due to their not being able to meet the new time requirements on testing turnaround. Several other partners may require additional caution as well when considering them for your visit. Hopefully, the state of Hawaii will also add additional partners soon.

We're also closely watching whether the island of Kauai is heading for a complete travel shutdown beginning December 1st. This is a breaking story we're following closely, but the Mayor of Kauai, Derek Kawakami, has proposed to the Governor that Kauai implement a strict 14-quarantine for ALL arrivals beginning December 1, 2020; regardless of taking the pre-travel test or not. We'll continue to update this story and many others on our Hawaii Travel News & Headlines page.


----------



## controller1

TravelTime said:


> I just got an email stating the following:
> 
> This past week has been another busy one in terms of new announcements in Hawaii. Most critically, as you now likely know, new travel restrictions effective November 24th require all travelers to have their negative test results prior to departure. We understand your frustrations with this new requirement, and we are continuing to monitor the situation closely. Based on traveler and industry feedback thus far, including multiple concerns about how quickly that policy was enacted by the Governor, we suspect further adjustments to the pre-travel testing program are forthcoming.
> 
> Unfortunately, there are some new developments that may further complicate some traveler's plans. Notably, several pre-travel trusted testing partners are experiencing testing delays and/or availability issues. We've updated our list of partners accordingly. However, one partner, in particular, CVS, who was one of the state’s larger trusted-testing partners, has begun telling Hawaii travelers that they should make other testing plans due to their not being able to meet the new time requirements on testing turnaround. Several other partners may require additional caution as well when considering them for your visit. Hopefully, the state of Hawaii will also add additional partners soon.
> 
> We're also closely watching whether the island of Kauai is heading for a complete travel shutdown beginning December 1st. This is a breaking story we're following closely, but the Mayor of Kauai, Derek Kawakami, has proposed to the Governor that Kauai implement a strict 14-quarantine for ALL arrivals beginning December 1, 2020; regardless of taking the pre-travel test or not. We'll continue to update this story and many others on our Hawaii Travel News & Headlines page.



Many of the Hawaii media sites do not believe Gov. Ige will approve the Kauai Mayor's request.


----------



## DeniseM

Hawaii's major newpaper doesn't think this is going to happen.  Especially now, right before the holidays.


----------



## csodjd

Perhaps I am missing something, but if it is as the Lt. Gov says, that residents are 5 times more likely than tourists to bring COVID in, the solution isn't putting up additional barriers to tourists, it is to require initial quarantine and subsequent testing of residents.









						Green: Despite criticism from mayors, pre-travel testing system is working
					

Hawaii is, according to media outlets like the New York Times, the only state in the U.S. where coronavirus is not spreading out of control. But elected officials in recent weeks have offered competing viewpoints as to how best keep it that way.




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com
				




The fact is, Hawaii is doing great. If you remove from the data the big outbreak they just had in the state jail/prison (> 100 new cases last week) it appears that, even with the residents that are arriving with COVID, the islands are still outperforming pretty much the entire U.S., and are staying well below the 150/day rate that they said would create medical capacity concern. 

So, here's my solution, which addresses the primary risk: when you fly over you sign a declaration stating how long you are staying. If it is 14 days or less, and you tested negative before boarding, you're good. Wear a mask, keep your distance, have a good vacation. If you are staying more than 14 days you must quarantine for 3 days, then can get tested and must remain quarantined until you test negative (PCR only).


----------



## amy241

csodjd said:


> Perhaps I am missing something, but if it is as the Lt. Gov says, that residents are 5 times more likely than tourists to bring COVID in, the solution isn't putting up additional barriers to tourists, it is to require initial quarantine and subsequent testing of residents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green: Despite criticism from mayors, pre-travel testing system is working
> 
> 
> Hawaii is, according to media outlets like the New York Times, the only state in the U.S. where coronavirus is not spreading out of control. But elected officials in recent weeks have offered competing viewpoints as to how best keep it that way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hawaiinewsnow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fact is, Hawaii is doing great. If you remove from the data the big outbreak they just had in the state jail/prison (> 100 new cases last week) it appears that, even with the residents that are arriving with COVID, the islands are still outperforming pretty much the entire U.S., and are staying well below the 150/day rate that they said would create medical capacity concern.
> 
> So, here's my solution, which addresses the primary risk: when you fly over you sign a declaration stating how long you are staying. If it is 14 days or less, and you tested negative before boarding, you're good. Wear a mask, keep your distance, have a good vacation. If you are staying more than 14 days you must quarantine for 3 days, then can get tested and must remain quarantined until you test negative (PCR only).



‘Those of us who may choose to travel for more than 14 days would not appreciate this idea - especially where the risk is the same for both groups entering the state with a negative Covid19 pre-travel test. No reason to punish the group staying longer with a quarantine.


----------



## lynne

It's official








						ALL Passengers Arriving on Kauai Subject to Quarantine Regardless of Testing
					

Effective Dec. 2 at 12:01 a.m.




					bigislandgazette.com


----------



## csodjd

amy241 said:


> ‘Those of us who may choose to travel for more than 14 days would not appreciate this idea - especially where the risk is the same for both groups entering the state with a negative Covid19 pre-travel test. No reason to punish the group staying longer with a quarantine.


Agree. But my thinking is that if you're traveling that long there's 3 days to spare, which is more palatable than what Kauai just imposed -- 14 day quarantine in ALL cases. So, basically, no travel to Kauai as Hawaii starts to back away from its reopening to tourism.


----------



## turkel

They just don’t want us. Really wish I hadn’t booked Maui in April.
Personally Hawaii doesn’t deserve my travel $$$.

Not sure what we will do now, hoping I bought e plus


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> Perhaps I am missing something, but if it is as the Lt. Gov says, that residents are 5 times more likely than tourists to bring COVID in, the solution isn't putting up additional barriers to tourists, it is to require initial quarantine and subsequent testing of residents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green: Despite criticism from mayors, pre-travel testing system is working
> 
> 
> Hawaii is, according to media outlets like the New York Times, the only state in the U.S. where coronavirus is not spreading out of control. But elected officials in recent weeks have offered competing viewpoints as to how best keep it that way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hawaiinewsnow.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fact is, Hawaii is doing great. If you remove from the data the big outbreak they just had in the state jail/prison (> 100 new cases last week) it appears that, even with the residents that are arriving with COVID, the islands are still outperforming pretty much the entire U.S., and are staying well below the 150/day rate that they said would create medical capacity concern.
> 
> So, here's my solution, which addresses the primary risk: when you fly over you sign a declaration stating how long you are staying. If it is 14 days or less, and you tested negative before boarding, you're good. Wear a mask, keep your distance, have a good vacation. If you are staying more than 14 days you must quarantine for 3 days, then can get tested and must remain quarantined until you test negative (PCR only).



I believe that one of the major problems is not just with the returning residents coming back its with the quality of the returning residents quarantining and their contact with others that they may live with that didn't travel, so therefore, don't need to quarantine.  The returning residents, unlike the tourists who stay in hotels or timeshares where there are staff will turn them in, stay in their homes with neighbors that are probably not going to turn them in for not quarantining and the other people in their households certainly will not turn them in.    

I know some people on here may not want to hear this again and I am sure that the Residents that will be returning to Kauai don't want to hear it but the only way to really stop the spread from returning people is to escort them to a guarded quartartine facility for the duration of time that the Mayor wants them to be in quarantine!


----------



## turkel

Tamaradarann said:


> I believe that one of the major problems is not just with the returning residents coming back its with the quality of the returning residents quarantining and their contact with others that they may live with that didn't travel, so therefore, don't need to quarantine.  The returning residents, unlike the tourists who stay in hotels or timeshares where there are staff will turn them in, stay in their homes with neighbors that are probably not going to turn them in for not quarantining and the other people in their households certainly will not turn them in.
> 
> I know some people on here may not want to hear this again and I am sure that the Residents that will be returning to Kauai don't want to hear it but the only way to really stop the spread from returning people is to escort them to a guarded quartartine facility for the duration of time that the Mayor wants them to be in quarantine!



I thought Hawaii was part of America not some 3rd world Totalitarian country.


----------



## amy241

We have Kauai booked for May/June 2021. I hope things improve by then. We are in Hawaii presently for 5 weeks after rescheduling the trip 3 times in 2020. Every time we needed to change the air, it cost us due to an increase in fares. I think we are now at about $8000 for 2 first class tickets on Hawaiian Air from SFO and Mint Class on JetBlue From FLL. Hawaiian Air has been the worst of the airlines to deal with - even when you see lower fares on their website in your class of service, they tell you they apply to new bookings only. Their hand is always out for more money, more money. I don’t think we will fly HA after our experience with them this year. Next year, it will be United through Houston.


----------



## TravelTime

I got a new email stating the following about Kauai:

We wanted to quickly share some breaking news for those with travel plans that include Kauai. Beginning next Wednesday, December 2nd, Kauai is heading for a complete travel shutdown. On November 27, 2020, Governor David Ige announced that starting December 2, 2020, all transpacific and inter-county travelers arriving on Kauai will be subject to the 14-day quarantine regardless of testing. We've updated all of our pages linked below to reflect this change and wanted to email this list to ensure anyone with plans to visit Kauai could update their travel itinerary accordingly without delay. Kauai Mayor Kawakami recently said, "I will gladly repeal the moratorium once we have the virus under control again." As always, we'll continue to closely monitor this situation.


----------



## turkel

amy241 said:


> We have Kauai booked for May/June 2021. I hope things improve by then. We are in Hawaii presently for 5 weeks after rescheduling the trip 3 times in 2020. Every time we needed to change the air, it cost us due to an increase in fares. I think we are now at about $8000 for 2 first class tickets on Hawaiian Air from SFO and Mint Class on JetBlue From FLL. Hawaiian Air has been the worst of the airlines to deal with - even when you see lower fares on their website in your class of service, they tell you they apply to new bookings only. Their hand is always out for more money, more money. I don’t think we will fly HA after our experience with them this year. Next year, it will be United through Houston.


Ouch! $8000 for 2 is insane. Again I will say, Hawaii doesn’t deserve my travel $$$. I have no desire to go and quarantine for the 14 days we have planned. We were willing to jump through some hoops but this is beyond the pale as far as we are concerned, quarantining even with a negative test.....nope we’ll stay home or find a different destination. We prefer the Caribbean anyways.


----------



## Tamaradarann

turkel said:


> I thought Hawaii was part of America not some 3rd world Totalitarian country.



It is all a matter of perspective, degree, and effectiveness.  Some feel that any quarantine is too Totalitarian.  Others feel that requiring Restaurants, Bars, Gyms, to close is too Totalitarian.  Still others say that limiting the size of events or home get togethers is too Totalitarian.  As we know some people refuse to wear masks that are required.  The Mayor of Kauai is very concerned with the infection rate so he is requiring all arrivals to quarantine for 14 days, will it work?   I personnally don't care one way or the other since we are not returning to Hawaii until this coronavirus is totally under control.   However, I feel that what I mentioned will be effective in keeping the people in Kauai safe.


----------



## bnoble

Here's an article about the change in Kauai. TL;DR: Starting 12/2, must quarantine for 14 days at your residence or, if a visitor, at a designated resort bubble. No defined end date.









						Ige approves temporary Safe Travels opt-out - The Garden Island
					

LIHU‘E — Gov. David Ige has signed into effect a temporary pause of the Safe Travels program for Kaua‘i.




					www.thegardenisland.com


----------



## csodjd

turkel said:


> Ouch! $8000 for 2 is insane. Again I will say, Hawaii doesn’t deserve my travel $$$. I have no desire to go and quarantine for the 14 days we have planned. We were willing to jump through some hoops but this is beyond the pale as far as we are concerned, quarantining even with a negative test.....nope we’ll stay home or find a different destination. We prefer the Caribbean anyways.


I booked flights LAX to/from HNL yesterday for a late Jan/Feb trip. I normally fly American. I do have a HA credit card and some HA miles banked. Here is what I found.

In Economy, it’s almost free. American Airlines, $119 LAX-HNL (on a Thursday), and $149 back (on a Sunday). These are prime time flights. But First Class was ~$650 going and over $900 return on one option, and $2000 for the other flights. (What some safety, for $119/seat, you can book yourself a row!)

However, HA, First class (lie flat) on return was just over $500, and about $300 for their extra comfort coach (which isn’t bad).

Since I have free first upgrades on AA (Platinum Pro), I bought FC for my wife and daughter going, and bought me a coach seat for $119. I don’t expect a January flight to HNL to fill up in first with that price differential between coach and first. So I’ll get three of us in first for about $1350. On the return I just booked first on Hawaiian, using my HA credit card, so I’ll get a bunch of miles. (Also, as a Black Friday weekend special, the two FC American tickets earned 15% discount vouchers on a future flight).

No change fees on any flights, so if we can‘t use them we’ll have the entire year to do so.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> I believe that one of the major problems is not just with the returning residents coming back its with the quality of the returning residents quarantining and their contact with others that they may live with that didn't travel, so therefore, don't need to quarantine.  The returning residents, unlike the tourists who stay in hotels or timeshares where there are staff will turn them in, stay in their homes with neighbors that are probably not going to turn them in for not quarantining and the other people in their households certainly will not turn them in.
> 
> I know some people on here may not want to hear this again and I am sure that the Residents that will be returning to Kauai don't want to hear it but the only way to really stop the spread from returning people is to escort them to a guarded quartartine facility for the duration of time that the Mayor wants them to be in quarantine!


I would never support any kind of “guarded quarantine facility.” I think (hope!) we learned in WW2 that’s not a good approach, and it’s unAmerican.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

csodjd said:


> I would never support any kind of “guarded quarantine facility.” I think (hope!) we learned in WW2 that’s not a good approach, and it’s unAmerican.



I agree, and i think its probably not legal and would quickly be overruled.  So it probably better for Hawaii or any other state to avoid even trying that only to have it overruled.


----------



## critterchick

bnoble said:


> Here's an article about the change in Kauai. TL;DR: Starting 12/2, must quarantine for 14 days at your residence or, if a visitor, at a designated resort bubble. No defined end date.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ige approves temporary Safe Travels opt-out - The Garden Island
> 
> 
> LIHU‘E — Gov. David Ige has signed into effect a temporary pause of the Safe Travels program for Kaua‘i.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thegardenisland.com



Interesting that visitors will be required to wear monitoring bracelets but will have full run of their bubble resorts. So presumably they can spread the virus to the staff, who can bring it home to their families. Not to mention spreading it among other guests.

We were due to fly out yesterday but cancelled because we concerned that the Thanksgiving holiday would delay our COVID tests, not to mention AA re-routing us from LAX-LIH nonstop to LAX-PHX-LIH, making a 6 hour trip an 11 hour one. That was our fourth try in 2020, hoping that February on Maui will come through. At least AA are very good about issuing refunds promptly.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

csodjd said:


> I booked flights LAX to/from HNL yesterday for a late Jan/Feb trip. I normally fly American. I do have a HA credit card and some HA miles banked. Here is what I found.
> 
> In Economy, it’s almost free. American Airlines, $119 LAX-HNL (on a Thursday), and $149 back (on a Sunday). These are prime time flights. But First Class was ~$650 going and over $900 return on one option, and $2000 for the other flights. (What some safety, for $119/seat, you can book yourself a row!)
> 
> However, HA, First class (lie flat) on return was just over $500, and about $300 for their extra comfort coach (which isn’t bad).
> 
> Since I have free first upgrades on AA (Platinum Pro), I bought FC for my wife and daughter going, and bought me a coach seat for $119. I don’t expect a January flight to HNL to fill up in first with that price differential between coach and first. So I’ll get three of us in first for about $1350. On the return I just booked first on Hawaiian, using my HA credit card, so I’ll get a bunch of miles. (Also, as a Black Friday weekend special, the two FC American tickets earned 15% discount vouchers on a future flight).
> 
> No change fees on any flights, so if we can‘t use them we’ll have the entire year to do so.




I found flights from San Jose Ca to Maui in early Feb for $1040 each in First Class on Hawaiian.  I went ahead and booked those, we had some HA credit from a 2020 trip that was canceled, so that worked well for us.

I had originally booked time at MVC Maui Ocean Club with DC points.  With the current surge and the change to the testing rules, i was concerned about not being able to travel and just rebooked the trip to a cash pay off Marriott.com.   Now i can cancel up until the day prior without penalty.  Obviously there is a cost to that added flexibility, but i decide that was worth it to me.


----------



## csodjd

1Kflyerguy said:


> I found flights from San Jose Ca to Maui in early Feb for $1040 each in First Class on Hawaiian.  I went ahead and booked those, we had some HA credit from a 2020 trip that was canceled, so that worked well for us.
> 
> I had originally booked time at MVC Maui Ocean Club with DC points.  With the current surge and the change to the testing rules, i was concerned about not being able to travel and just rebooked the trip to a cash pay off Marriott.com.   Now i can cancel up until the day prior without penalty.  Obviously there is a cost to that added flexibility, but i decide that was worth it to me.


Here is my struggle. Suggestions welcome. 

There are three of us. We currently have Lagoon Tower (2BR Oceanfront) booked for March 27-April 3, and Maui Ocean Club (2BR Oceanfront) April 3 - 10. 

Of course, we have to test negative before flying to Hawaii. That's a given. We plan to use Vault.

But, to go from Oahu to Maui as we're currently scheduled means we have to get tested again while in Oahu. That means both money (from about $400 - $675 total for the 3 of us depending on who we go to for the tests) and the risk, however, small, of a positive (including a false positive) and all the problems that creates. 

The obvious solution is go to Maui first, direct from California, THEN to Oahu. Then we'd only need the initial testing before departure. I looked to see if I could move my Lagoon Tower reservation to the week after Maui and I can, but only with an ocean view room, not ocean front. I save points and the cost/risk of testing, however. I have not called MOC to see if I can move the Maui week to the week BEFORE Oahu. That's the next step. It doesn't appear there is any way to determine from the MVC website if there are rooms available, I can only find out by calling I guess.


----------



## csodjd

1Kflyerguy said:


> I agree, and i think its probably not legal and would quickly be overruled.  So it probably better for Hawaii or any other state to avoid even trying that only to have it overruled.


And perspective is always helpful. Here are the charts for Hawaii and the US for total cases. Of course, Hawaii opened to trans-Pacific travel on Oct. 15. And notably, in the past week, they have had over 100 cases in a prison breakout, which doesn't implicate community spread or tourism. But, even with that, the DATA does not support the fear being expressed. They report a statewide test positivity rate of 1.8%. That's a pretty good number. Currently there are only 17 ICU beds in the state being used by COVID patients (163 are being used for non-COVID patients). Hospitalization is FLAT since Oct. 15. No patients in Kauai are in the hospital. *Six weeks after opening up, there is no increase in cases or in number of patients in the hospital with COVID in Hawaii.* 

(All this data is available at https://hiema-hub.hawaii.gov/ and at https://hiema-hub.hawaii.gov/pages/covid-dashboard)





Here is the US as a whole: 





Here is the hospitalization data for the state: 





What's really striking, if not shocking, to me is the Kauai data. It shows that there have been a few new cases. One in the past 24 hours. This is not massive. A 7-day moving average of 3. And for that they are ending tourists coming to the island.


----------



## echino

Covid is just an excuse. Many people living in Kauai had wanted to stop tourists long before Covid.


----------



## geist1223

Will the other Islands follow Kaua'i?


----------



## chellej

I originally had the first 2 weeks of January booked on Kauai...I thought things weren't looking good a few months ago and changed to Maui in May.  Now I am beginning to wonder if even that is going to happen or if I want to bother with the hassle of the testing.  I understand the locals not wanting to be overrun by covid and at this point am thinking I just need to put Hawaii off until the vaccine has been out and things have settled down.  Vacation should be relaxing...not worried about all the hoops you have to jump through.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> I would never support any kind of “guarded quarantine facility.” I think (hope!) we learned in WW2 that’s not a good approach, and it’s unAmerican.



From my personal perspective the entire REQUIREMENT to quarantine is unAmerican.  So is the PROHIBITION on restaurants, bars and gyms being open.  As well as PROHIBITING venues from having large events.  Prohibing more than 10 guests in your home is violating your rights.  Also requiring me to wear a mask when I go outside impedes my personal liberty.  But I  guess I should be glad there are no guards making me quarantine for 14 days when I return to Hawaii! 

But there are police who are arresting people and giving fines in Hawaii as well as on Long Island for violating the Coronavirus Rules just like in a totalitarian police state.  Hawaii's virus numbers are very good right now.  Long Island and all of New York State, which was so good this summer, is going up at an alarming rate.  In Kauai they are worried about it turning into what has happened in much of the rest of the country.  The question is do our leaders concern themselves with the health and welfare of the populus or do they worry about violating peoples rights.  As I said it is all a matter of perspective, degree, and effectiveness.  What is going on right now in most of the country seems to be ineffective!


----------



## csodjd

echino said:


> Covid is just an excuse. Many people living in Kauai had wanted to stop tourists long before Covid.


Perhaps. But the Governor approved it. Does he support stopping tourism in Kauai? Was he duped? 

A client of mine owns a condo there. He was about to travel over this week with his family to spend a couple weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas. Now he's not going. I'm not sure that helps the island overall. He owns a home there. They'd utilize the local markets, businesses, etc. Instead he's skipping Hawaii and going elsewhere.


----------



## csodjd

chellej said:


> I originally had the first 2 weeks of January booked on Kauai...I thought things weren't looking good a few months ago and changed to Maui in May.  Now I am beginning to wonder if even that is going to happen or if I want to bother with the hassle of the testing.  I understand the locals not wanting to be overrun by covid and at this point am thinking I just need to put Hawaii off until the vaccine has been out and things have settled down.  Vacation should be relaxing...not worried about all the hoops you have to jump through.


On the other hand, once you jump through them, Hawaii is one of the safest places in the Country to go.


----------



## csodjd

Tamaradarann said:


> From my personal perspective the entire REQUIREMENT to quarantine is unAmerican.  So is the PROHIBITION on restaurants, bars and gyms being open.  As well as PROHIBITING venues from having large events.  Prohibing more than 10 guests in your home is violating your rights.  Also requiring me to wear a mask when I go outside impedes my personal liberty.  But I  guess I should be glad there are no guards making me quarantine for 14 days when I return to Hawaii!
> 
> But there are police who are arresting people and giving fines in Hawaii as well as on Long Island for violating the Coronavirus Rules just like in a totalitarian police state.  Hawaii's virus numbers are very good right now.  Long Island and all of New York State, which was so good this summer, is going up at an alarming rate.  In Kauai they are worried about it turning into what has happened in much of the rest of the country.  The question is do our leaders concern themselves with the health and welfare of the populus or do they worry about violating peoples rights.  As I said it is all a matter of perspective, degree, and effectiveness.  What is going on right now in most of the country seems to be ineffective!


Every restaurant, theater, stadium, etc., has capacity limits imposed by law for reasons of safety. Restaurants and bars and hotels have more public health regulations than we can imagine that they must comply with every day. That's not new. So our "rights" have always (or for a long time) been regulated. We do not have a "right" to get others sick. And government has always had very broad powers for the protection of public health. The only thing new now is that there is a virus forcing them to exercise those powers.

You may be correct that what is going on right now seems ineffective. However, that seems to be no fault of the public health officials. It's entirely in the lap of the people that are not following the guidelines of the public health officials -- often in the name of their "rights" and their "personal freedom," without regard to the rights and freedoms of others.


----------



## MULTIZ321

Kauai Will Require New 14-Day Quarantine For Travelers Starting December 2.










						Kauai Will Require New 14-Day Quarantine For Travelers Starting December 2
					

The Hawaiian island of Kauai will require all visitors to quarantine for 14 days, regardless of COVID-19 testing, starting in December.




					www.forbes.com
				





Richard


----------



## Tamaradarann

csodjd said:


> Every restaurant, theater, stadium, etc., has capacity limits imposed by law for reasons of safety. Restaurants and bars and hotels have more public health regulations than we can imagine that they must comply with every day. That's not new. So our "rights" have always (or for a long time) been regulated. We do not have a "right" to get others sick. And government has always had very broad powers for the protection of public health. The only thing new now is that there is a virus forcing them to exercise those powers.
> 
> You may be correct that what is going on right now seems ineffective. However, that seems to be no fault of the public health officials. It's entirely in the lap of the people that are not following the guidelines of the public health officials -- often in the name of their "rights" and their "personal freedom," without regard to the rights and freedoms of others.



In view of your above comment I will requote in bold your earlier comment, and add my comment that "It is all a matter of perspective, degree, and effectiveness."
*"I would never support any kind of “guarded quarantine facility.” I think (hope!) we learned in WW2 that’s not a good approach, and it’s unAmerican."*

I don't condone the internment camps of Japanese Citizens that had done nothing wrong but have their roots in Japan.  It smacked of racism along with fear since we didn't intern the German and Italian citizens.(Some of my ancestors would have been in that group)

What I heard was that Kauai was planning to do with bubble resorts and wrist bans which is not that much different than a "guarded quarantine facility".  In fact the wrist bans to identify quarantined people smacks of what Nazi Germany did permanently to Jews to identify them in the 1930's. 

My perspective on this is if we are going to rely on people using their own best judgement on what they should do to not spread this virus that is giving individuals the ultimate freedom which is preferred.  We are personally doing that and it has been sucessful for us so far.  However, if we are going to regulate the actions of people to protect public health we need to do it in an EFFECTIVE way since leaving it up to individuals best judgement is certainly not proving to be effective right now.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Tamaradarann said:


> In view of your above comment I will requote in bold your earlier comment, and add my comment that "It is all a matter of perspective, degree, and effectiveness."
> *"I would never support any kind of “guarded quarantine facility.” I think (hope!) we learned in WW2 that’s not a good approach, and it’s unAmerican."*
> 
> I don't condone the internment camps of Japanese Citizens that had done nothing wrong but have their roots in Japan.  It smacked of racism along with fear since we didn't intern the German and Italian citizens.(Some of my ancestors would have been in that group)
> 
> What I heard was that Kauai was planning to do with bubble resorts and wrist bans which is not that much different than a "guarded quarantine facility".  In fact the wrist bans to identify quarantined people smacks of what Nazi Germany did permanently to Jews to identify them in the 1930's.
> 
> My perspective on this is if we are going to rely on people using their own best judgement on what they should do to not spread this virus that is giving individuals the ultimate freedom which is preferred.  We are personally doing that and it has been sucessful for us so far.  However, if we are going to regulate the actions of people to protect public health we need to do it in an EFFECTIVE way since leaving it up to individuals best judgement is certainly not proving to be effective right now.




After writing the above I had an additional thought about what Kauai is planning to do with the bubble resorts and wrist bans.  From the perspective that it is targetting ONLY tourists and not returning residents, who the data shows is the main culprit with spreading the virus, it is even more like the discriminating nature of what Nazi Germany did in identifying the Jews in the 1930's.  Therefore, while the discriminating aspect of the plan would certainly would put a damper on tourist arrivals it may not even stop the virus coming into the County.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

Tamaradarann said:


> After writing the above I had an additional thought about what Kauai is planning to do with the bubble resorts and wrist bans.  From the perspective that it is targetting ONLY tourists and not returning residents, who the data shows is the main culprit with spreading the virus, it is even more like the discriminating nature of what Nazi Germany did in identifying the Jews in the 1930's.  Therefore, while the discriminating aspect of the plan would certainly would put a damper on tourist arrivals it may not even stop the virus coming into the County.



That's exactly why I dropped Kauai from my travel plans for at least the next year.  The message they are sending is they don't want me there, but would still appreciate some of my tourist dollars.

Seems like this will drive down the tourist for sure,  probably across all the islands, not just Kauai.  But you will have the local residents working in the resort bubbles then going back to their homes outside the bubble.  

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't really see this idea as successful.


----------



## HGVC Lover

1Kflyerguy said:


> The message they are sending is they don't want me there, but would still appreciate some of my tourist dollars.



I hope you are not just realizing this now....having lived there for many years I can tell you that sentiment is a strong underlying feeling of many residents of the state of Hawaii.....when we lived in Kona, to my surprise,  I found myself not like tourist either,,,,,,,,cheers!!


----------



## csodjd

HGVC Lover said:


> I hope you are not just realizing this now....having lived there for many years I can tell you that sentiment is a strong underlying feeling of many residents of the state of Hawaii.....when we lived in Kona, to my surprise,  I found myself not like tourist either,,,,,,,,cheers!!


Seems to me that Hawaii has something of a personality crisis. They either need to welcome tourists, or choose to realign itself economically to free itself of the dependency on tourism money and stop sending mixed messages. The state will fall into a depression if they depend economically on tourism but repel tourists. Imagine the beachfront hotels of Waikiki and Maui being boarded up and abandoned, looking like inner city Detroit did a number of years back. I’m not sure what the economic engine of Hawaii would be without tourism, but they can’t have it both ways... financial dependence on tourism without welcoming tourists.


----------



## DannyTS

It is their prerogative to keep the Kauai closed. But in the meantime they are collecting taxes from people who cannot use their homes, condos and especially their timeshare. If I owned a timeshare in Kauai  I would really sue the government for the value of the property taxes. Their is no justification for paying when the goal of the local government is to keep the units empty. It is a matter of fairness and Hawaii has gone further than any other state. Those that think the state is doing the right thing should put their money where their mouth is. I do not care if some people can stay there 8 or 12 weeks. Most owners cannot. The average Marriott owner has 1.5 weeks.


----------



## rickandcindy23

DannyTS said:


> It is their prerogative to keep the Kauai closed. But in the meantime they are collecting taxes from people who cannot use their homes, condos and especially their timeshare. If I owned a timeshare in Kauai  I would really sue the government for the value of the property taxes. Their is no justification for paying when the goal of the local government is to keep the units empty. It is a matter of fairness and Hawaii has gone further than any other state. Those that think the state is doing the right thing should put their money where their mouth is. I do not care if some people can stay there 8 or 12 weeks. Most owners cannot. The average Marriott owner has 1.5 weeks.


We own quite a few on Kauai.  I would be upset, if they weren't in Wyndham points.  

I don't see a big uptick in cases on the islands from the chart posted above, so this is paranoia.  We go to Maui for 5 weeks and 5 days in February.  We will quarantine 14 days, if we must.  I may even change our return date to stay a week longer.  I have a unit already booked.


----------



## Tamaradarann

1Kflyerguy said:


> That's exactly why I dropped Kauai from my travel plans for at least the next year.  The message they are sending is they don't want me there, but would still appreciate some of my tourist dollars.
> 
> Seems like this will drive down the tourist for sure,  probably across all the islands, not just Kauai.  But you will have the local residents working in the resort bubbles then going back to their homes outside the bubble.
> 
> Maybe I am wrong, but I don't really see this idea as successful.



I totally agree with you with dropping Kauai.  I agree that alot of other tourists will also cancel trips rather than quarantine.  I didn't think of about your point about the local residents working in the bubble resort.  I believe it would be quite ironic if some tourists and local residents who met each other on the plane on the way to Kauai meet again at the bubble resort;  the tourist is a guest and the local resident is working there!


----------



## slip

csodjd said:


> Seems to me that Hawaii has something of a personality crisis. They either need to welcome tourists, or choose to realign itself economically to free itself of the dependency on tourism money and stop sending mixed messages. The state will fall into a depression if they depend economically on tourism but repel tourists. Imagine the beachfront hotels of Waikiki and Maui being boarded up and abandoned, looking like inner city Detroit did a number of years back. I’m not sure what the economic engine of Hawaii would be without tourism, but they can’t have it both ways... financial dependence on tourism without welcoming tourists.



I don’t know about the mixed messages part. Hawaii has been very consistent about either not allowing travel here or making it very difficult to travel here from the start.


----------



## bnoble

1Kflyerguy said:


> That's exactly why I dropped Kauai from my travel plans for at least the next year. The message they are sending is they don't want me there, but would still appreciate some of my tourist dollars.


Kauai has the smallest hospital capacity of any of the counties---and it is not close. Being more cautious than the others strikes me as reasonable, as they have very little room for error there.


			https://health.hawaii.gov/shpda/files/2019/11/Table-1-Licensed-Acute-Care-Bed-Capacity.pdf


----------



## lynne

Press Conference -Careful analysis of the Safe Travels Surveillance Testing Program shows between 7 and 15 per 1000 (1 of 66 to 148) travelers are arriving undetected.

There will be a press conference Monday November 30th 5pm to answer questions from the media and state and county leadership.



Analysis follows.

The state's Safe Travels and Surveillance Testing Programs are not working as planned, and the data is far more alarming than has been presented.

The state predicted that only 1 in 1000 infected would get through a single preflight test screen. However, the surveillance test data from Oahu, Maui and Kaua'i combined shows that 7 out of 1000 (1 in 148) are infected, and on Kauai, alone, 15 in 1,000 (1 in 66). Many times what was predicted.

Additionally, 20-25% of incoming travelers receive a preflight test exemption. Not an insignificant percent, but close to quarter of all inbound arrivals. This is unsafe.

The state's "Surveillance Testing Program” was to test 10% of travelers on day 4 or later, over a period of 60 days. Now it is being cut short.

At the Governor's November 19th press conference, we learned that only 1339 surveillance tests were actually conducted on Oahu (616), Maui (392) and Kauai (331). That is less than 1/2 of 1 percent, not 10%.

A small number of arriving travelers were sent emails inviting them to take the free surveillance test. Had more emails been sent, the study could have easily collected ten times the data. But it appears the Hawaii island data would show lower positives, and so was inapporpriately inserted instead.

At that November 19th press conference we were told that there were only 4 positives (3 on Oahu, 1 on Maui, 0 on Kaua’i) of the 1339 - or 1 of 334 were positive - three times what was predicted.

However, Kaua'i's Department of Health shared that 5 of their 331 surveillance tests were in fact positive, not zero. Or 1 out of 66 travelers.

The Lt. Governor's office privately acknowledged their error and confirmed that not zero, but 5 were positive out of the 331 Kaua'i tests, but has offered no explanation for this misinformation.

Despite multiple interviews since, this error has not been publicly corrected and the true number of Hawaii island tests done as part of the surveillance study methodology (rather than Mayor Kim’s arrival testing) has not been shared.

On November 24th, a press release was issued saying the Safe Travels Surveillance Testing Program has been a clear success, and is now being wrapped up three weeks early, not the 60 days as promised. https://tinyurl.com/hawaiirisk2

Toward the bottom of that press release we learn that 2.2 out of 1,000 travelers were found to be infected but not detected, or 1 out of 454 positives. Twice what was envisioned.

So, how did we get from 1 out of 454 statewide to from 1 of 66 on Kaua’i infected? Because Kaua’i data is not corrupted.

At the November 19th press conference, state leadership chose to include the 15,931 same day arrival antigen tests that Mayor Harry Kim did on the Big island. This violates basic scientific testing principles.

The Big Island's arrival day antigen tests don't come close to meeting the two most critical parameters of the "Safe Travels Surveillance Test Program," which were:

1) A gold standard highly sensitive PCR test.

2) A test on day 4 or later (minimum time necessary for the viral load to replicate to detectable levels).

Administering a proven to be less sensitive antigen test upon arrival, after a more sensitive PCR test was given, in some case hours, but even if 1-2 days earlier, is designed to fail. It can not find many new positives, and will detect absolutely no one infected during travel.

It would be like taking a high quality pregnancy test, getting a negative result, and then trying again with a lower quality pregnancy test a few hours later.

Once a study methodology is set, it is inexcusable to change the methodology midway if the results are not what was anticipated - unless an ethical issue arises. The only ethical issue arising is that given how surprisingly high the numbers are, there is an obligation to immediately alert the public to these results, so the Safe Travels program can be paused.

With the number of infected between 7 and 15 per 1000 travelers, we can assume every large inbound flight will have at least one infected passenger. New studies from Europe, Asia, and New Zealand show that transmissions are occurring on less than half full airplanes, even with mask wearing.

https://tinyurl.com/hawaiirisk3 and https://tinyurl.com/hawaiirisk4

Including the Big Island's poorly timed, lower quality day of arrival antigen tests, it dramatically skews the results.

A clear look at the November 19th data shows the obvious bias.

Oahu - 616 tests - PCR - Day 4 - 3 positive results, unconfirmed.

Maui - 392 tests - PCR - Day 4 - 1 positive result, unconfirmed.

Kauai - 331 tests - PCR - Day 4 - 5 positive result, confirmed by DOH

Big island ~ 15,931 tests - Antigen - Day 1 - 23 positive results, unconfirmed. No 4th day PCR test count has been provided.

This alarming data, and the lack of fidelity in testing and reporting, makes a strong case for why all islands should consider opting out.

This is also likely why a county District Health Officer last week suggested that the entire state pauses the program through the month of December. https://tinyurl.com/hawaiirisk1

The Safe Travels program is allowing in many times more infected travelers than predicted - and certainly planting the seeds of community spread where none existed before - an unacceptable tradeoff.

Now, with the number of active cases on the mainland roughly doubling since opening, our risk has substantially increased.

A comprehensive covid response primer:

https://darraghocarrollmd.medium.com/how-hawaii-can-get-coronavirus-right-in-twelve-steps-269555b5892e


----------



## csodjd

slip said:


> I don’t know about the mixed messages part. Hawaii has been very consistent about either not allowing travel here or making it very difficult to travel here from the start.


I mean more broadly, not during COVID. The message I am hearing from some, at least, is that they don't want the tourists COVID or no COVID. They just don't want them. But they have an economy and budget that depends on tourism dollars and taxes.


----------



## slip

csodjd said:


> I mean more broadly, not during COVID. The message I am hearing from some, at least, is that they don't want the tourists COVID or no COVID. They just don't want them. But they have an economy and budget that depends on tourism dollars and taxes.



There are definitely some here that don’t want tourists and I can’t put a number on them. I am out working everyday and interact with other people working. My interactions with those people tell me they want tourists back. But on the other hand, the people who don’t want tourists back may be staying at home and are not out and about so I am not hearing from them.
I would think it’s a mixed bag just like many other contentious issues.


----------



## csodjd

lynne said:


> Press Conference -Careful analysis of the Safe Travels Surveillance Testing Program shows between 7 and 15 per 1000 (1 of 66 to 148) travelers are arriving undetected.
> 
> There will be a press conference Monday November 30th 5pm to answer questions from the media and state and county leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> Analysis follows.
> 
> The state's Safe Travels and Surveillance Testing Programs are not working as planned, and the data is far more alarming than has been presented.
> 
> The state predicted that only 1 in 1000 infected would get through a single preflight test screen. However, the surveillance test data from Oahu, Maui and Kaua'i combined shows that 7 out of 1000 (1 in 148) are infected, and on Kauai, alone, 15 in 1,000 (1 in 66). Many times what was predicted.
> 
> Additionally, 20-25% of incoming travelers receive a preflight test exemption. Not an insignificant percent, but close to quarter of all inbound arrivals. This is unsafe.
> 
> The state's "Surveillance Testing Program” was to test 10% of travelers on day 4 or later, over a period of 60 days. Now it is being cut short.
> 
> At the Governor's November 19th press conference, we learned that only 1339 surveillance tests were actually conducted on Oahu (616), Maui (392) and Kauai (331). That is less than 1/2 of 1 percent, not 10%.
> 
> A small number of arriving travelers were sent emails inviting them to take the free surveillance test. Had more emails been sent, the study could have easily collected ten times the data. But it appears the Hawaii island data would show lower positives, and so was inapporpriately inserted instead.
> 
> At that November 19th press conference we were told that there were only 4 positives (3 on Oahu, 1 on Maui, 0 on Kaua’i) of the 1339 - or 1 of 334 were positive - three times what was predicted.
> 
> However, Kaua'i's Department of Health shared that 5 of their 331 surveillance tests were in fact positive, not zero. Or 1 out of 66 travelers.
> 
> The Lt. Governor's office privately acknowledged their error and confirmed that not zero, but 5 were positive out of the 331 Kaua'i tests, but has offered no explanation for this misinformation.
> 
> Despite multiple interviews since, this error has not been publicly corrected and the true number of Hawaii island tests done as part of the surveillance study methodology (rather than Mayor Kim’s arrival testing) has not been shared.
> 
> On November 24th, a press release was issued saying the Safe Travels Surveillance Testing Program has been a clear success, and is now being wrapped up three weeks early, not the 60 days as promised. https://tinyurl.com/hawaiirisk2
> 
> Toward the bottom of that press release we learn that 2.2 out of 1,000 travelers were found to be infected but not detected, or 1 out of 454 positives. Twice what was envisioned.
> 
> So, how did we get from 1 out of 454 statewide to from 1 of 66 on Kaua’i infected? Because Kaua’i data is not corrupted.
> 
> At the November 19th press conference, state leadership chose to include the 15,931 same day arrival antigen tests that Mayor Harry Kim did on the Big island. This violates basic scientific testing principles.
> 
> The Big Island's arrival day antigen tests don't come close to meeting the two most critical parameters of the "Safe Travels Surveillance Test Program," which were:
> 
> 1) A gold standard highly sensitive PCR test.
> 
> 2) A test on day 4 or later (minimum time necessary for the viral load to replicate to detectable levels).
> 
> Administering a proven to be less sensitive antigen test upon arrival, after a more sensitive PCR test was given, in some case hours, but even if 1-2 days earlier, is designed to fail. It can not find many new positives, and will detect absolutely no one infected during travel.
> 
> It would be like taking a high quality pregnancy test, getting a negative result, and then trying again with a lower quality pregnancy test a few hours later.
> 
> Once a study methodology is set, it is inexcusable to change the methodology midway if the results are not what was anticipated - unless an ethical issue arises. The only ethical issue arising is that given how surprisingly high the numbers are, there is an obligation to immediately alert the public to these results, so the Safe Travels program can be paused.
> 
> With the number of infected between 7 and 15 per 1000 travelers, we can assume every large inbound flight will have at least one infected passenger. New studies from Europe, Asia, and New Zealand show that transmissions are occurring on less than half full airplanes, even with mask wearing.
> 
> https://tinyurl.com/hawaiirisk3 and https://tinyurl.com/hawaiirisk4
> 
> Including the Big Island's poorly timed, lower quality day of arrival antigen tests, it dramatically skews the results.
> 
> A clear look at the November 19th data shows the obvious bias.
> 
> Oahu - 616 tests - PCR - Day 4 - 3 positive results, unconfirmed.
> 
> Maui - 392 tests - PCR - Day 4 - 1 positive result, unconfirmed.
> 
> Kauai - 331 tests - PCR - Day 4 - 5 positive result, confirmed by DOH
> 
> Big island ~ 15,931 tests - Antigen - Day 1 - 23 positive results, unconfirmed. No 4th day PCR test count has been provided.
> 
> This alarming data, and the lack of fidelity in testing and reporting, makes a strong case for why all islands should consider opting out.
> 
> This is also likely why a county District Health Officer last week suggested that the entire state pauses the program through the month of December. https://tinyurl.com/hawaiirisk1
> 
> The Safe Travels program is allowing in many times more infected travelers than predicted - and certainly planting the seeds of community spread where none existed before - an unacceptable tradeoff.
> 
> Now, with the number of active cases on the mainland roughly doubling since opening, our risk has substantially increased.
> 
> A comprehensive covid response primer:
> 
> https://darraghocarrollmd.medium.com/how-hawaii-can-get-coronavirus-right-in-twelve-steps-269555b5892e


There is a lot of data there, but two key points, one you mentioned and one you did not. The mentioned one is that up to 25% are coming in without a pre-flight test. Well, from a data analysis standpoint, you have to exclude those when evaluating the effectiveness of a pre-flight test at screening out positives. Positives in the exempt travelers does not reflect a failure of the pre-testing program. It reflects the OBVIOUS... if there's no screening you'll get infected people. 

So, first step... reduce or eliminate the ability to come into Hawaii without a negative test. That allows the FLIGHT to be safer -- almost certainly reducing the risk of in-flight infection of previously uninfected people. 

The unmentioned one is that, of those testing positive, they have said that five times as many are residents over tourists. So, again, if you are evaluating the pre-testing program as it pertains to ensuring that TOURISTS are not coming in with COVID, you cannot include residents and treat the two groups as the same. 

So, second step, address residents differently than short term visitors. Require an arrival test within 48 hours for those that are staying more than two weeks so you can find and isolate those that pose a risk of spreading the infection. Those are the people mixing with family and community, going to churches, etc.


----------



## csodjd

slip said:


> There are definitely some here that don’t want tourists and I can’t put a number on them. I am out working everyday and interact with other people working. My interactions with those people tell me they want tourists back. But on the other hand, the people who don’t want tourists back may be staying at home and are not out and about so I am not hearing from them.
> I would think it’s a mixed bag just like many other contentious issues.


Well, a vocal but small minority, or outlier views, are not, in my mind, relevant.


----------



## slip

csodjd said:


> Well, a vocal but small minority, or outlier views, are not, in my mind, relevant.



My point was, we don’t know if the number is large or small. I haven’t seen any studies on how many people here don’t want any tourists ever again.

I remember living extremely close to the Wisconsin Dells and many people talked about not liking so many tourists around but many had jobs depending on them.


----------



## csodjd

slip said:


> My point was, we don’t know if the number is large or small. I haven’t seen any studies on how many people here don’t want any tourists ever again.
> 
> I remember living extremely close to the Wisconsin Dells and many people talked about not liking so many tourists around but many had jobs depending on them.


What I'm getting at is that it is counter-productive to be tourist unfriendly in an environment where tourism is necessary. It's like the owner of a bar leading a PR campaign against drinking.

Here's an interesting story/article on the topic.









						Will Hawaii Finally Be Able To Break Its Dependence On Tourism?
					

The state is about to reopen its tourism industry, the heart of Hawaii's economic engine. Is it time to find another way forward?




					www.civilbeat.org
				




And the article below states, "A study conducted in 2014 and released in March 2015, shows there hasn’t been a dramatic shift in how locals feel about Hawaii tourism. Asked to rate their overall perception of the state’s tourism industry, about 1,600 Hawaii residents surveyed generated an average ranking of 8 on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being extremely favorable. " 









						Hawaii Visitors and Residents Whipsaw in 1,000 Comments
					

Hawaii still on a wild ride.



					beatofhawaii.com


----------



## slip

csodjd said:


> What I'm getting at is that it is counter-productive to be tourist unfriendly in an environment where tourism is necessary. It's like the owner of a bar leading a PR campaign against drinking.
> 
> Here's an interesting story/article on the topic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will Hawaii Finally Be Able To Break Its Dependence On Tourism?
> 
> 
> The state is about to reopen its tourism industry, the heart of Hawaii's economic engine. Is it time to find another way forward?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.civilbeat.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the article below states, "A study conducted in 2014 and released in March 2015, shows there hasn’t been a dramatic shift in how locals feel about Hawaii tourism. Asked to rate their overall perception of the state’s tourism industry, about 1,600 Hawaii residents surveyed generated an average ranking of 8 on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being extremely favorable. "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hawaii Visitors and Residents Whipsaw in 1,000 Comments
> 
> 
> Hawaii still on a wild ride.
> 
> 
> 
> beatofhawaii.com



I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind, I get where your coming from. We can also say it’s counterproductive to keep posting about how wrong Hawaii has been handling things, it’s not going to change anything. Sorry, I had to add a little humor here. 

HawaiiGovernor is going to do what he wants and all we can do is stay informed on what his decisions are.

I am extremely grateful that I live here now because I know it would have been very difficult wanting to come back but have to deal with all the constant changes. I really don’t know how I would have handled it.

My work is extremely dependent on the tourists and our sales were down over 50% at one time. Things have improved some but we have a long way to go to get back to where we were and the way it looks. We could easily be taking a step back again soon.


----------



## csodjd

slip said:


> HawaiiGovernor is going to do what he wants and all we can do is stay informed on what his decisions are.


Yes, however, discussing it helps not only understand it, but, more importantly I think, make educated guesses about what to expect in the short and mid term futures. I've got trips planned for late January and late March. I cannot be certain what will be allowed or required. But I can plan for possibilities, and weigh the more and the less likely ones. An easy example is, what's the chance the new restrictions on travel to Kauai will "spread" to Maui? Well, to guess at that it helps to understand WHY the restrictions were put in place in Kauai and if it makes sense, is likely to work, etc. That helps in making an educated guess about whether Maui will do the same or not.


----------



## lynne

csodjd said:


> There is a lot of data there, but two key points, one you mentioned and one you did not. The mentioned one is that up to 25% are coming in without a pre-flight test. Well, from a data analysis standpoint, you have to exclude those when evaluating the effectiveness of a pre-flight test at screening out positives. Positives in the exempt travelers does not reflect a failure of the pre-testing program. It reflects the OBVIOUS... if there's no screening you'll get infected people.
> 
> So, first step... reduce or eliminate the ability to come into Hawaii without a negative test. That allows the FLIGHT to be safer -- almost certainly reducing the risk of in-flight infection of previously uninfected people.
> 
> The unmentioned one is that, of those testing positive, they have said that five times as many are residents over tourists. So, again, if you are evaluating the pre-testing program as it pertains to ensuring that TOURISTS are not coming in with COVID, you cannot include residents and treat the two groups as the same.
> 
> So, second step, address residents differently than short term visitors. Require an arrival test within 48 hours for those that are staying more than two weeks so you can find and isolate those that pose a risk of spreading the infection. Those are the people mixing with family and community, going to churches, etc.



I agree with your points.  The issue we have is that visitor counts are not reflected in any of the safe travels data when the visitor ends up sick and then testing positive.  Residents are more likely to take the second test but visitors do not want to put their vacation at risk and will unlikely test a second time.  The only time we know about visitors is when they become ill and then test positive.    As stated in the analysis, Kauai is the only county reporting the data correctly where the visitor/resident ratio is about 50/50.

Both residents and visitors really need to step up mask usage.  

According to this Harvard model, if a surveillance test is conducted just once every fourteen days, which is similar to screening travelers with only one test, only *30 percent *of *asymptomatic* and *pre-symptomatic persons *are caught*. *Just another 15 percent of persons will isolate themselves after developing symptoms (the dashed box on top).

United Healthcare group and Dr. Daniel Griffen of Columbia University Medical Center in New York released an *interactive COVID-19 simulator* in October that can calculate how effective any surveillance strategy is. Below is a screenshot after inputting a one test strategy, with the results highlighted in red.






adapted from https://calculator.unitedinresearch.com/complex_dashboard
This COVID-19 simulator also depicts one test will catch *less than 40 percent* of infections. You can try it for yourself at the link here.


----------



## slip

csodjd said:


> Yes, however, discussing it helps not only understand it, but, more importantly I think, make educated guesses about what to expect in the short and mid term futures. I've got trips planned for late January and late March. I cannot be certain what will be allowed or required. But I can plan for possibilities, and weigh the more and the less likely ones. An easy example is, what's the chance the new restrictions on travel to Kauai will "spread" to Maui? Well, to guess at that it helps to understand WHY the restrictions were put in place in Kauai and if it makes sense, is likely to work, etc. That helps in making an educated guess about whether Maui will do the same or not.




You really only have two options, to come or to cancel and the Governor can change that at any time. The real question is how long you can delay your decision before you are scheduled to come.

Many people have been wrong in their educated guesses based on the COVID data in these Hawaii threads.

I do wish you good luck and I hope you can make it back to Hawaii.


----------



## deniseh

csodjd said:


> And perspective is always helpful. Here are the charts for Hawaii and the US for total cases. Of course, Hawaii opened to trans-Pacific travel on Oct. 15. And notably, in the past week, they have had over 100 cases in a prison breakout, which doesn't implicate community spread or tourism. But, even with that, the DATA does not support the fear being expressed. They report a statewide test positivity rate of 1.8%. That's a pretty good number. Currently there are only 17 ICU beds in the state being used by COVID patients (163 are being used for non-COVID patients). Hospitalization is FLAT since Oct. 15. No patients in Kauai are in the hospital. *Six weeks after opening up, there is no increase in cases or in number of patients in the hospital with COVID in Hawaii.*
> 
> (All this data is available at https://hiema-hub.hawaii.gov/ and at https://hiema-hub.hawaii.gov/pages/covid-dashboard)
> 
> View attachment 29205
> 
> Here is the US as a whole:
> 
> View attachment 29206
> 
> Here is the hospitalization data for the state:
> 
> View attachment 29207
> 
> What's really striking, if not shocking, to me is the Kauai data. It shows that there have been a few new cases. One in the past 24 hours. This is not massive. A 7-day moving average of 3. And for that they are ending tourists coming to the island.
> 
> View attachment 29210


Thank you for sharing the science with us. We have been told that decisions are being made according to the science.  It seems perhaps that is not the case....


----------



## csodjd

slip said:


> You really only have two options, to come or to cancel and the Governor can change that at any time. The real question is how long you can delay your decision before you are scheduled to come.
> 
> Many people have been wrong in their educated guesses based on the COVID data in these Hawaii threads.
> 
> I do wish you good luck and I hope you can make it back to Hawaii.


We're coming in Jan for 10 nights for sure as long as a negative test gets us to Oahu. I believe (hope) that by mid-March COVID will be in a very different place than it is today. Vaccines will be happening (though I know it will take a while to get 50-70% vaccinated, I think we'll see new cases going down significantly well before that happens). Holidays will be in the rear view mirror. 

A big unknown to me is how Hawaii will handle someone that's been vaccinated. I'm imagining something akin to how they deal with keeping rabies out. Show you were vaccinated more than 30 days ago (30+ days since the second vaccine) and a positive antibody test showing you have the antibodies and you can come in freely. But -- first we need data proving that someone that's been vaccinated cannot spread the disease. That'll come soon though I suspect.


----------



## slip

csodjd said:


> We're coming in Jan for 10 nights for sure as long as a negative test gets us to Oahu. I believe (hope) that by mid-March COVID will be in a very different place than it is today. Vaccines will be happening (though I know it will take a while to get 50-70% vaccinated, I think we'll see new cases going down significantly well before that happens). Holidays will be in the rear view mirror.
> 
> A big unknown to me is how Hawaii will handle someone that's been vaccinated. I'm imagining something akin to how they deal with keeping rabies out. Show you were vaccinated more than 30 days ago (30+ days since the second vaccine) and a positive antibody test showing you have the antibodies and you can come in freely. But -- first we need data proving that someone that's been vaccinated cannot spread the disease. That'll come soon though I suspect.



As you can tell, I quit guessing what Hawaii will do a long time ago. 

If you come to Waikiki send me a message. I’ll buy you a drink, it there is a place open we can meet and drink one.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

HGVC Lover said:


> I hope you are not just realizing this now....having lived there for many years I can tell you that sentiment is a strong underlying feeling of many residents of the state of Hawaii.....when we lived in Kona, to my surprise,  I found myself not like tourist either,,,,,,,,cheers!!



No this is not news to me.  I have been to Hawaii enough to have picked up on that.  It just that usually to the desire for dollar / economy outweighs those feelings, at least in most areas.  

That feeling of wanting to limit or reduce the impact of outsiders is not unique to Kauai or even Hawaii...  Many tourist centric area have a love hate relationship with tourists.


----------



## JanT

They don’t want tourists EVER or just until Covid gets squared away?

How do they propose to keep their state going without tourism?



csodjd said:


> I mean more broadly, not during COVID. The message I am hearing from some, at least, is that they don't want the tourists COVID or no COVID. They just don't want them. But they have an economy and budget that depends on tourism dollars and taxes.


----------



## csodjd

slip said:


> As you can tell, I quit guessing what Hawaii will do a long time ago.
> 
> If you come to Waikiki send me a message. I’ll buy you a drink, it there is a place open we can meet and drink one.


Sad... but you're on. I'm always an optimist though.


----------



## csodjd

JanT said:


> They don’t want tourists EVER or just until Covid gets squared away?
> 
> How do they propose to keep their state going without tourism?


I think there's something of a "grass is always greener" phenomenon that goes on. Places with lots of tourists whose economy depends on tourism would love to not have all those pesky, annoying, tourists. Other places trying to generate revenue are busy advertising to draw in tourists.

Hawaii, however, is a bit unique because so many of the "tourists" aren't tourists in the traditional sense. They are people that come regularly, often multiple times a year, often for lengthy stays. Timeshare owners, in particular, aren't "tourists" in the traditional sense in my view. They come to enjoy and be a part of the local community. I think there is a line of demarcation -- laundry. If you come to Hawaii and plan to do laundry while you are there, you're not a "tourist" in the traditional sense. You have qualities of residency.


----------



## slip

csodjd said:


> Sad... but you're on. I'm always an optimist though.



I usually am too. I noticed most my posts have been very cynical today. Sorry about that.


----------



## PearlCity

JanT said:


> They don’t want tourists EVER or just until Covid gets squared away?
> 
> How do they propose to keep their state going without tourism?


So from what i can see, many do want to diversify the economy. Depending on tourism too much has not fared well for Hawaii residents when the economy goes bad. We take longer to recover than tbe rest of the country. Now how to do is the question. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tamaradarann

PearlCity said:


> So from what i can see, many do want to diversify the economy. Depending on tourism too much has not fared well for Hawaii residents when the economy goes bad. We take longer to recover than tbe rest of the country. Now how to do is the question.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk



I am not an entrepreneur type so I don't know how you get these ideas implemented but these are my thoughts on what would be possible.

There is alot of land that previously was used for growing Pinapples and Sugar that could be turned into other agricultural uses.  The unavailabiltiy of labor to work the land may be an issue unless that those that work in the Hotels and Restaurants would want to be farm workers.  If not, I am sure that they could figure a way to import that just as many areas of the Continental United States does?

The Renewable Energy field needs to grow.  Hawaii has a goal of being 100% off fossil fuels and into renewable energy by 2045.  There are alot of solar panels, wind mills, transmission wires, transformers, electric panels and outlets that need to put up and maintained as well as other alternative energy sources that need to be developed and implemented to meet and maintain that goal.  Again who can and would be willing to do that kind of work?

Any industry that can be performed digitally or by phone would work since the distance from others would not be the issue that it is for other industries.  I get so many solicitors from phone numbers from the Continental United States as well as advertisements on the internet.  Having those coming from or being developed and originating from Hawaii could be possible.


----------



## PearlCity

Tamaradarann said:


> I am not an entrepreneur type so I don't know how you get these ideas implemented but these are my thoughts on what would be possible.
> 
> There is alot of land that previously was used for growing Pinapples and Sugar that could be turned into other agricultural uses. The unavailabiltiy of labor to work the land may be an issue unless that those that work in the Hotels and Restaurants would want to be farm workers. If not, I am sure that they could figure a way to import that just as many areas of the Continental United States does?
> 
> The Renewable Energy field needs to grow. Hawaii has a goal of being 100% off fossil fuels and into renewable energy by 2045. There are alot of solar panels, wind mills, transmission wires, transformers, electric panels and outlets that need to put up and maintained as well as other alternative energy sources that need to be developed and implemented to meet and maintain that goal. Again who can and would be willing to do that kind of work?
> 
> Any industry that can be performed digitally or by phone would work since the distance from others would not be the issue that it is for other industries. I get so many solicitors from phone numbers from the Continental United States as well as advertisements on the internet. Having those coming from or being developed and originating from Hawaii could be possible.



I dont have proof but im sure the visitor industry has paid off politicians to not diversify. I have a friend who is a long time papaya farmer on oahu generations and her family always has to fight to keep agriculture alive. The local governments have not provided many tax incentives to diversify when our location puts us in a prime location for industries like renewables, aquaculture etc. 

Hawaii state taxes are so expensive here and its plain expensive to do business in Hawaii.  I believe there are seed companies on maui that have taken advantage of year round sun for research and there was the whole thirty meter telescope on the big island that was supposed to he built but both have had community opposition and not a lot of political backing. There are all sorts pf conspiracy theories related to where the opposition is coming from- but none surprise me.  

Im hopeful the new Honolulu mayor who had no polical party affiliation will make a difference on Oahu.  We'll see if covid changes attitudes around here. 

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## amy241

DannyTS said:


> It is their prerogative to keep the Kauai closed. But in the meantime they are collecting taxes from people who cannot use their homes, condos and especially their timeshare. If I owned a timeshare in Kauai  I would really sue the government for the value of the property taxes. Their is no justification for paying when the goal of the local government is to keep the units empty. It is a matter of fairness and Hawaii has gone further than any other state. Those that think the state is doing the right thing should put their money where their mouth is. I do not care if some people can stay there 8 or 12 weeks. Most owners cannot. The average Marriott owner has 1.5 weeks.



And they should sue for the loss of their timeshare time as it borders on a regulatory taking at this point.


----------



## amy241

turkel said:


> Ouch! $8000 for 2 is insane. Again I will say, Hawaii doesn’t deserve my travel $$$. I have no desire to go and quarantine for the 14 days we have planned. We were willing to jump through some hoops but this is beyond the pale as far as we are concerned, quarantining even with a negative test.....nope we’ll stay home or find a different destination. We prefer the Caribbean anyways.



I agree! While the airlines can’t apparently sell many coach seats right now, first and business class fares have skyrocketed. I itemized what we paid and on Hawaiian Air first class it is a total of $3279.48. OurJetBlue Mint fares total $4960.18.  Our JetBlue return from SFO - FLL on 12/21 alone was $2350 for 2 persons. We have had so many changes at this point and each time they have told me there is a fare difference to collect.


----------



## Tamaradarann

amy241 said:


> I agree! While the airlines can’t apparently sell many coach seats right now, first and business class fares have skyrocketed. I itemized what we paid and on Hawaiian Air first class it is a total of $3279.48. OurJetBlue Mint fares total $4960.18.  Our JetBlue return from SFO - FLL on 12/21 alone was $2350 for 2 persons. We have had so many changes at this point and each time they have told me there is a fare difference to collect.


 
I agree with turkel.  We have spent the entire winter in Hawaii every year since 2009 to get away from the cold.   We will deal with the cold this winter in our private sucluded home rather than risk the virus on the way to Hawaii or staying in a high rise with other travelers and staff around.  We also wouldn't want to pay high prices to stay isolated on the plane to go a place that would put us around people in hallways, elevators, lobbies, activities, restauants.


----------



## jacknsara

csodjd said:


> <snip>    A big unknown to me is how Hawaii will handle someone that's been vaccinated. I'm imagining something akin to how they deal with keeping rabies out. Show you were vaccinated more than 30 days ago (30+ days since the second vaccine) and a positive antibody test showing you have the antibodies and you can come in freely. But -- first we need data proving that someone that's been vaccinated cannot spread the disease. That'll come soon though I suspect.


Aloha,
My guess is that the transition will be primarily driven by the rate at which vaccination proceeds within Hawaii.  Once all Hawaiians have had the opportunity to be vaccinated, risks of travelers consuming Hawaiian hospital capacity can be aligned with vaccination rates (and prior infection rates determined by testing) at the national point of origin.  Conceivably, travelers from specific countries could be allowed in without any further documentation.
Time will tell.
Jack


----------



## Tamaradarann

PearlCity said:


> I dont have proof but im sure the visitor industry has paid off politicians to not diversify. I have a friend who is a long time papaya farmer on oahu generations and her family always has to fight to keep agriculture alive. The local governments have not provided many tax incentives to diversify when our location puts us in a prime location for industries like renewables, aquaculture etc.
> 
> Hawaii state taxes are so expensive here and its plain expensive to do business in Hawaii.  I believe there are seed companies on maui that have taken advantage of year round sun for research and there was the whole thirty meter telescope on the big island that was supposed to he built but both have had community opposition and not a lot of political backing. There are all sorts pf conspiracy theories related to where the opposition is coming from- but none surprise me.
> 
> Im hopeful the new Honolulu mayor who had no polical party affiliation will make a difference on Oahu.  We'll see if covid changes attitudes around here.
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk



I don't know if it is a conspiracy.  You used the expression "charge attitudes around here" and I think that is the key.  

I mentioned 3 possible industries that could be expanded let me mention my experiences with them in Hawaii:

- I was at an Eat, Drink and Learn panel discussion and dinner in Honolulu in 2019 that was sponsored by the food industry in Hawaii.  We were discussing Hawaii being more sustainable food wise since in imports about 90% of its food.  I mentioned more farming on the vacant sugar and pinapple plantation land.  One of the major objections was need for labor to do the farming.  Would the tourist industry workers that wouldn't be needed if Hawaii deemphasized tourism become farm workers?  The sugar and pinapple industry imported much of their labor.  Would the Hawaii of the 2020's go for that?  

- I was at a Sustainable Energy Panel discussion in early Honolulu 2020 at the Wai Wai Collective.  The 2045 law requiring the use of renewable energy sources and stop burning fossil fuels was discussed.  There was major opposition from many to wind mills.  Roof top Solar Panels which work well in Hawaii was pushed.  However, when I brought up the issue of how to obtain sufficient power for the large buildings with roof top solar panels to the CEO of Hawaii Electric he said he knew it was going to be a challenge to get the land needed for many more solar panels that roof top could provide.  How will they obtain the land to do that?  Will there be local opposition?  Again would the tourist industry workers that wouldn't be needed if Hawaii demphasize tourism become solar panel installers, technicians, electricians, laborers etc. to do the work needed to construct and maintain this industry?


----------



## lynne

Post-arrival testing to ramp up in Kona - West Hawaii Today
					

Starting Wednesday, all trans-Pacific travelers who took a pre-boarding COVID-19 test also will be given a rapid-result antigen test upon arrival at Ellison Onizuka Kona International Airport at Keahole, Mayor Harry Kim said Monday.




					www.westhawaiitoday.com


----------



## csodjd

lynne said:


> Post-arrival testing to ramp up in Kona - West Hawaii Today
> 
> 
> Starting Wednesday, all trans-Pacific travelers who took a pre-boarding COVID-19 test also will be given a rapid-result antigen test upon arrival at Ellison Onizuka Kona International Airport at Keahole, Mayor Harry Kim said Monday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.westhawaiitoday.com


Given the unreliability of THAT test when used for that purpose, I'd guess it's going to cause more problems than they want. The FDA approval for the antigen test specifically says it is for confirming COVID in a symptomatic patient. It's reliability is otherwise undetermined.


----------



## lynne

csodjd said:


> Given the unreliability of THAT test when used for that purpose, I'd guess it's going to cause more problems than they want. The FDA approval for the antigen test specifically says it is for confirming COVID in a symptomatic patient. It's reliability is otherwise undetermined.


The test's purpose is to identify potential positives after the passenger submitted a negative test upon arrival, the rapid test at least will initiate the 2nd PCR test.
“In the month of November … 43 people have tested positive on the second PCRs,” Kim told the panel. ”Please bear in mind, in the month of October, where we had two weeks (of testing), we had nine. … And from Nov. 6, we’re only testing 25%.”


----------



## PearlCity

So this just happened. Residents boarding planes after getting a positive test..









						Kauai couple arrested after boarding flight despite positive COVID-19 test results
					

A Kauai couple was arrested after boarding a flight despite having tested positive for COVID-19.




					www.khon2.com
				





Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


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## JanT

That’s much of our society now - there are no “rules.”  They think they can do whatever the Hell they want and it doesn’t matter who they hurt.  I’m glad they were arrested and I hope they make an example out of them. 



PearlCity said:


> So this just happened. Residents boarding planes after getting a positive test..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kauai couple arrested after boarding flight despite positive COVID-19 test results
> 
> 
> A Kauai couple was arrested after boarding a flight despite having tested positive for COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.khon2.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## TheHolleys87

PearlCity said:


> So this just happened. Residents boarding planes after getting a positive test..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kauai couple arrested after boarding flight despite positive COVID-19 test results
> 
> 
> A Kauai couple was arrested after boarding a flight despite having tested positive for COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.khon2.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


I couldn’t tell from the written article and didn’t open the video - were they arrested in SFO and removed from the plane, or did they fly all the way to LIH before they were arrested?


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## PearlCity

TheHolleys87 said:


> I couldn’t tell from the written article and didn’t open the video - were they arrested in SFO and removed from the plane, or did they fly all the way to LIH before they were arrested?


They flew to LIH and got arrested on Kauai. 








						Police: Hawaii couple arrested after boarding plane knowing they were COVID positive
					

Two Kauai residents were arrested over the weekend after they got on a plane for the island knowing they were positive for COVID-19.




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com
				





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## TheHolleys87

PearlCity said:


> They flew to LIH and got arrested on Kauai.
> 
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> Police: Hawaii couple arrested after boarding plane knowing they were COVID positive
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> Two Kauai residents were arrested over the weekend after they got on a plane for the island knowing they were positive for COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hawaiinewsnow.com
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> Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk


Wow.  I wonder how the Kauai government is handling the planeload of potentially exposed individuals?


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## zentraveler

I was just about to post the same article from the Washington Post. It is truly no wonder that Hawaii is being extremely careful; it seems people will do anything to get to Hawaii these days. The selfishness of some people is truly staggering. 

It is also a caution about flying. The tests are helpful but do not create a risk free situation.


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## amycurl

People are the. worst.


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## PearlCity

TheHolleys87 said:


> Wow. I wonder how the Kauai government is handling the planeload of potentially exposed individuals?


Yeah there wasnt anything in the news about that. I know they do offer free voluntary post travel testing so maybe they are doing that. But im not sure. Its troubling that it sounds like these were returning residents. But still. Crazy stuff. 

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## deniseh

Would be good to know all the facts before jumping to conclusions. People can and do test positive for covid for up to three months after having covid. It doesn’t mean that a person is actually contagious when there is a positive result depending on the circumstances.


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## Ken555

deniseh said:


> Would be good to know all the facts before jumping to conclusions. People can and do test positive for covid for up to three months after having covid. It doesn’t mean that a person is actually contagious when there is a positive result depending on the circumstances.



The conclusions are clear, regardless of any possibility of their not being actively contagious. They disobeyed instructions. They flew when they were specifically told not to. What else do you need to know?

Frankly, I’m still dismayed that the airlines are not monitoring this adequately. This is just another reason not to trust the airlines regardless of what they say regarding safety.


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## lynne

Interesting article on receiving a positive test at an airport testing center








						I got a positive COVID-19 test in the middle of a trip. Here's what happened. - The Points Guy
					

Editor’s note: A TPG reporter was diagnosed with COVID while traveling. We decided to share their story below but have left their name off this post for the




					thepointsguy.com


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## deniseh

lynne said:


> Interesting article on receiving a positive test at an airport testing center
> 
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> 
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> I got a positive COVID-19 test in the middle of a trip. Here's what happened. - The Points Guy
> 
> 
> Editor’s note: A TPG reporter was diagnosed with COVID while traveling. We decided to share their story below but have left their name off this post for the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thepointsguy.com


Interesting article. He had the rapid covid test which  can give false positive. Sounds like he did have some symptoms so it likely was accurate. We use them where I work and always follow up with the PCR test for confirmation. A negative rapid is accurate but positive rapid can be false. We’ve seen it happen. I would not want to depend on the rapid test prior to travel.


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## JanT

Important to note, too that at least in SF you are not eligible for testing at the airport unless your flight *originates* there, i.e., you are a local resident.  There has been some discussion on TUG about people routing through there so they can get their tests done.  Looks like that isn’t possible.


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## csodjd

deniseh said:


> Interesting article. He had the rapid covid test which  can give false positive. Sounds like he did have some symptoms so it likely was accurate. We use them where I work and always follow up with the PCR test for confirmation. A negative rapid is accurate but positive rapid can be false. We’ve seen it happen. I would not want to depend on the rapid test prior to travel.


Last time I read the package insert on the rapid antigen test, it was only FDA approved for us in a symptomatic patient to confirm COVID. It was NOT approved or tested for surveillance testing or testing of asymptomatic patients, and there was no data on sensitivity and specificity on asymptomatic patients. Thus, it is prone to false positives on an asymptomatic patient. When you have both symptoms of COVID AND a positive antigen test you have high reliability in the test result. 

This is why I say using it for surveillance testing on arrival in Kona is going to create problems.


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## zentraveler

deniseh said:


> Would be good to know all the facts before jumping to conclusions. People can and do test positive for covid for up to three months after having covid. It doesn’t mean that a person is actually contagious when there is a positive result depending on the circumstances.



Likewise the false negative rate is not zero. People don't test positive the minute they are infected because it takes time for the virus to multiply. I don't have the reference but my DH read an article recently about a family that got together after all testing negative and they all came down with covid. All to say that testing is very helpful, but it is not a panacea. 

And there are the people who know they are positive and just have to go to Hawaii, infecting people all along the way (who will then infect others) ....


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## csodjd

zentraveler said:


> Likewise the false negative rate is not zero. People don't test positive the minute they are infected because it takes time for the virus to multiply. I don't have the reference but my DH read an article recently about a family that got together after all testing negative and they all came down with covid. All to say that testing is very helpful, but it is not a panacea.
> 
> And there are the people who know they are positive and just have to go to Hawaii, infecting people all along the way (who will then infect others) ....


There are people, apparently quite a few, that still don't believe there is such a thing as COVID. 

Testing needs to be viewed more as part of a strategy than a conclusion. The key to ensuring a high accuracy in a test is to have quarantined about 5-7 days before the test. If you became infected before the self-quarantine, it will likely appear in a test taken 5-7 days later. However, that doesn't mean you cannot become infected after the test. Put in terms of a trip to Hawaii, start a quarantine on Wednesday morning, follow that with a Monday test (that's five+ days, so 6+ since any possible infection) that's negative, then quarantine until flight departure on Wed or Thursday, and your only meaningful risk is the actual airport-flight-airport period.


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## Xan

Excellent video! This is from Thursday Dec 4, 2020 (New episode every Thursday @ 2pm Eastern.







						The HighWire | Watch
					

Watch live here every Thursday at 11 PM PT (2 PM ET) and catch up on past episodes and episode segments.



					thehighwire.com
				





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## magmue

A overall perspective on Highwire from MediaBiasFactCheck.com. FWIW, before I decided to post a link from this website, I looked at their evaluation of other websites and media publications I am more familiar with - Media Bias Fact Check does not seem to have a particular political ax to grind.


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## csodjd

magmue said:


> A overall perspective on Highwire from MediaBiasFactCheck.com. FWIW, before I decided to post a link from this website, I looked at their evaluation of other websites and media publications I am more familiar with - they do not seem to have a particular political ax to grind.


I'm not sure. It seems Highwire is operated by ICAN, which is clearly an advocacy group that refers to its work on "man made disease" and its lawsuits against the FDA, HHS, etc., and appears decidedly anti-vaccine. This is from their website. So I'm not sure I'm ready to accept their "facts."


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## magmue

I think I was unclear - I did not mean that Highwire had no political ax to grind - I meant that MediaBiasfactCheck seemed even-handed. And they assessed HighWire as:


> * a Strong Conspiracy as well as a Quackery level Pseudoscience site based on the routine promotion of unproven claims. We also rate them Low for factual reporting due to promoting propaganda not aligned with the consensus of science as well as several failed fact checks.*



I will try to edit my last post to clarify - done.


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## WalnutBaron

cman said:


> I'm thinking 2022. Just saw an interview with Dr. Fauci where he predicted that we'd have an effective vaccine as early as November, but it wouldn't be widely available until the end of 2021.
> 
> I also like how Hawaii has handled this thing. The Governor stated his goal was to "ensure the health and safety of Hawaii's citizens". He did it. Hawaii is one of the least impacted states in the country as far as Covid is concerned. The guy also established a program that ensured that the majority of people traveling to the islands were tested in advance. They basically made Hawaii the safest state in the nation to travel to.
> 
> I don't have a dog in this fight, but if they protected their population from Covid, and made their state the safest travel destination in the country, can we give them some credit? I mean, it's about results. Seems like their doing pretty well.


On the flip side, Governor Ige is rated as the least popular governor of all 50 states, with a 32% approval rating. He may be protecting the locals, but he's decimating the Hawaiian economy. If the results of this poll are close to correct and things don't fully normalize until 2022, it's hard to imagine what Hawaii will look like then with massive hotel, restaurant, and tour company closures.


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## csodjd

WalnutBaron said:


> On the flip side, Governor Ige is rated as the least popular governor of all 50 states, with a 32% approval rating. He may be protecting the locals, but he's decimating the Hawaiian economy. If the results of this poll are close to correct and things don't fully normalize until 2022, it's hard to imagine what Hawaii will look like then with massive hotel, restaurant, and tour company closures.


My view... there are some Governors that are waaayyyy to cavalier and doing a lousy job of protecting their citizens. Florida and the Dakotas come to mind. There are others that are too protective. Because of Hawaii's unique situation -- an island 3000 miles away -- it is easy for Ige to be too protective. To me, the most successful are those that are able to manage the compromises, to thread the needle and get the best protection with the least economic harm. Not easy, to be sure. But I'm not sure Hawaii has done a great job of even trying. 

As an example, in Kauai they gave gone to 100% quarantine because of the lack of available ICU beds. Well, it's been 8 months. Is there any reason they could not have the ICU capacity they need today? Had they added beds perhaps they'd feel (and be) very safe today with the same rules as Oahu and the Hyatt would not be shutting down. According to Hawaii data, 7% of their cases statewide have required hospitalization. I believe generally about 15-25% of those need an ICU. So if you have 100 cases, perhaps 2 would need an ICU. Is there any reason for Kauai to not have 10 ICU beds available for COVID if needed? That would mean they could handle about 500 active cases. So far they've had 120 for the ENTIRE pandemic.


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## lynne

Worth the read:



			The Real Reason Americans Aren’t Quarantining


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## amy241

Some suggest Hawaii may be heading for a shutdown again:









						Second Tests Or Hawaii Travel Shutdown? | Next Changes Imminent
					

The one thing you can count on is that we have not heard the last of this.



					beatofhawaii.com


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## Breezy52

I'm in quarantine state now.  The only other inside exposure I've had than my immediate family is my hour spent with Dr. who works on my back.  We both wear masks, but what convinced me to take this risk, He had Covid in April.  2 days after this last session he notifies me that he again has Covid, with symptoms,  and would have had it during our session 2 days before.  He did not have a mild case initially but not an extreme case either.  8 months between infections.  For what its worth :-(


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## amy241

This article mentions that the movement to further restrict travel to Hawaii is going momentum with state lawmakers, particularly the senate. Some of these proposals will seriously curtail travel to the state.









						Second Tests Or Hawaii Travel Shutdown? | Next Changes Imminent
					

The one thing you can count on is that we have not heard the last of this.



					beatofhawaii.com


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## PearlCity

amy241 said:


> This article mentions that the movement to further restrict travel to Hawaii is going momentum with state lawmakers, particularly the senate. Some of these proposals will seriously curtail travel to the state.
> 
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> 
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> Second Tests Or Hawaii Travel Shutdown? | Next Changes Imminent
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> The one thing you can count on is that we have not heard the last of this.
> 
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> 
> beatofhawaii.com


Im local. I feel like beat of hawaii is sensationalizing for clicks because no one is going their website to read about cheap airfare anymore.  No one is talking about a shutdown esp not on oahu. They want to allow for a longer pretesting period followed by a second post test due to limited testing on some parts of the US mainland. We arents surging with a 7 day average of 92.9 cases. Additionally oahu's new mayor will be on board in less than a month and he wants to reopen more. The rules may change slightly,it may be confusing yet again- but i don't think we are shutting down to tourists. 

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