# Timeshare Salesman just love TUG on facebook!



## TUGBrian

So earlier today, a Salesperson commented on a post on our facebook page that linked folks to this article:

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshares_buying_new_or_used.html

After a number of posts where he attempted to defend his position, he chose to delete all his posts after beginning to get nasty...thankfully facebook sends emails when anyone comments, so they are all saved!  Ill be uploading them here shortly!



I am amused at how tug started off as "a great site he refers so many of his clients to"...and by the end of the discussion it was "a small useless website that wont ever make a dent in the industry"

Im sure Mr Charles Sparks is an extremely successful salesperson at whatever resort he works at with his ability to change direction and hide things he said that might be used against him in the future!


----------



## TUGBrian

and here we go!  these go in order of his comments posted on that thread, at the end ill upload whats "left" of the thread so you can see the replies from TUG as the discussion carries on.


----------



## TUGBrian

and the overall chat (minus the deleted posts above)


----------



## davidvel

TUGBrian said:


> I'm sure Mr Charles Sparks is an extremely successful salesperson at whatever resort he works at with his ability to change direction and hide things he said that might be used against him in the future!


From his comments, sounds like a guy who is not very successful at timeshare sales. 

He does write some LOOOOONG sentences, though.


----------



## TUGBrian

Actual facebook page for those that wish to friend us!

https://www.facebook.com/TimeshareUsersGroup


----------



## Jason245

TUGBrian said:


> So earlier today, a Salesperson commented on a post on our facebook page that linked folks to this article:
> 
> http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshares_buying_new_or_used.html
> 
> After a number of posts where he attempted to defend his position, he chose to delete all his posts after beginning to get nasty...thankfully facebook sends emails when anyone comments, so they are all saved!  Ill be uploading them here shortly!
> 
> 
> 
> I am amused at how tug started off as "a great site he refers so many of his clients to"...and by the end of the discussion it was "a small useless website that wont ever make a dent in the industry"
> 
> Im sure Mr Charles Sparks is an extremely successful salesperson at whatever resort he works at with his ability to change direction and hide things he said that might be used against him in the future!



I think this is just the begining. The Melenial Generation is starting to come into their own when it comes to discretionary income and financial independence. This generation is used to buying cars online, looking online for comparative shopping of products and goods and google searching everything.  While There are still people who don't activly use the internet, the new target timeshare customer is more educated and does more research resulting in a lower conversion rate for timeshare sales teams (just a guess). 

In case you don't know the term, conversion rate = number of buyers vs number of people who show up to presentations and receive their free goodies.


----------



## czar

Jason245 said:


> I think this is just the begining. The Melenial Generation is starting to come into their own when it comes to discretionary income and financial independence. This generation is used to buying cars online, looking online for comparative shopping of products and goods and google searching everything.  While There are still people who don't activly use the internet, the new target timeshare customer is more educated and does more research resulting in a lower conversion rate for timeshare sales teams (just a guess).
> 
> In case you don't know the term, conversion rate = number of buyers vs number of people who show up to presentations and receive their free goodies.



 The flipside of this is that the industry will have to evolve to cope with the information out there. It could be positive or negative, as perks are added to developer purchases or taken away from resales. Whatever the case, they'll have to evolve their product somehow as generations shift.


----------



## Jason245

czar said:


> The flipside of this is that the industry will have to evolve to cope with the information out there. It could be positive or negative, as perks are added to developer purchases or taken away from resales. Whatever the case, they'll have to evolve their product somehow as generations shift.



I am hoping that they just start reducing prices and commissions and turn it into more of a CARMAX experience instead of a Uncle Eddies Used Car lot one.


----------



## TUGBrian

this one is even better!

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1772585#post1772585


----------



## DaveNV

TUGBrian said:


> and here we go!  these go in order of his comments posted on that thread, at the end ill upload whats "left" of the thread so you can see the replies from TUG as the discussion carries on.





Wow.  He managed that entire tirade and only used one period!  I'm impressed!!

Dave


----------



## TUGBrian

and another shining example of Timeshare Salesman reinforcing the negative stereotype


https://www.facebook.com/TimeshareUsersGroup/posts/10153530086591255?pnref=story


----------



## TUGBrian

and same guy in another thread....very classy

https://www.facebook.com/TimeshareUsersGroup/posts/10153532083946255?pnref=story


----------



## DeniseM

Proving once more that, "profanity is the last refuge of the ignorant."


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Typing Is Easy.  Thinking Is Hard.*




BMWguynw said:


> He managed that entire tirade and only used one period!


Some of'm on FaceBook could become more impressive by learning how to express themselves without using crude & vulgar words. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## pedro47

Can you send this t/s salesperson comments to his employer?


----------



## rickandcindy23

If the timeshare salesman can be located by his name but I would guess it's tough to figure that out.  

Classy guy.  Wastegate salesman, maybe?  They slimy-crawl even lower than snakes.


----------



## TUGBrian

id certainly tag the company in the thread if he posted publicly who he worked for =)

im not going to dig into his private life to find out that information though.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Keep On Absorbing Those Timeshare Presentation Freebies.*

The more the full-freight timeshare sellers reveal the true nature of their character, the more the resale timeshare crowd can grab up the timeshare tour freebies with a clear conscience.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## silentg

Why bother arguing? We do what we do to save money. The biggest expense in Timeshares are the Maintenence fees. Even if you get a free timeshare, look at what the Maintenence fees are and they will continue to rise as time goes on.  Not to step on salesmen's toes, but after we talk about resales, they pull a rabbit out of a hat... Saying look we have resales too! So why show me the high priced timeshares then when I tell you what I know, suddenly you have something for less? Then feelings get hurt, you run to your boss, they make a big entrance and blah blah, . We don't go to presentations anymore, buy from owners directly.  Enjoy the timeshares and don't waste time at presentations!
Silentg


----------



## TUGBrian

because the more replies and likes the conversation gets, the more likely it is to be seen by other timeshare owners.

even if just one owner discovers they can buy resale from reading that discussion, isnt that worth the menial effort put forth in typing a reply to contradict the ridiculousness being spewed by that guy?


----------



## Jason245

He is a Facebook friend to tug. .Maybe he should be unfriended 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## TUGBrian

believe that would remove his posts from the page.


----------



## csxjohn

Daniel is an off premises body snatcher for West Gate and started a conversation about wanting to buy a timeshare but never came back to answer questions that were asked of him regarding his WG travel perks.

Eric's not talking about who he works for but is FB friends with Daniel.

I did not research any of this, it just popped out at me in reading some other FB threads.


----------



## TUGBrian

yay for more westgate salesfolk chiming in to hate the article =)

while it makes perfect sense, ive never actually heard a salesperson use upfront fee resale scammers as a rebuttal to folks that bring up resale in the first place.

its actually quite brilliant, if not very sad for consumers.


----------



## SmithOp

csxjohn said:


> Daniel is an off premises body snatcher for West Gate and started a conversation about wanting to buy a timeshare but never came back to answer questions that were asked of him regarding his WG travel perks.
> 
> 
> 
> Eric's not talking about who he works for but is FB friends with Daniel.
> 
> 
> 
> I did not research any of this, it just popped out at me in reading some other FB threads.




It doesnt take much to find Eric's employment info.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/eric-strode/2a/975/253


Sent from my iPad using the strange new version of Tapatalk


----------



## Ty1on

SmithOp said:


> It doesnt take much to find Eric's employment info.
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/pub/eric-strode/2a/975/253
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using the strange new version of Tapatalk



He totally looks like a timeshare salesman.


----------



## csxjohn

SmithOp said:


> It doesnt take much to find Eric's employment info.
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/pub/eric-strode/2a/975/253
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using the strange new version of Tapatalk



Good one, he claims to care about causes for education and when Brian points out the need for educating yourself before buying vaca time he lashes out.

Causes Eric cares about:
Animal Welfare
Children
Civil Rights and Social Action
Economic Empowerment
Education
Environment
Health
Human Rights
Disaster and Humanitarian Relief
Politics
Poverty Alleviation


----------



## TUGBrian

im pretty sure being a hypocrite is a common trait in many of the more devious salesmen in the industry.

this thread is just golden!


----------



## Ty1on

csxjohn said:


> Good one, he claims to care about causes for education and when Brian points out the need for educating yourself before buying vaca time he lashes out.
> 
> Causes Eric cares about:
> Animal Welfare
> Children
> Civil Rights and Social Action
> Economic Empowerment
> Education
> Environment
> Health
> Human Rights
> Disaster and Humanitarian Relief
> Politics
> Poverty Alleviation



This is a BS list many LinkedIners use because it makes them look socially progressive and they think that increases their chances of getting hired.  I strongly support many of those causes (I won't say which), but choose to leave that off LinkedIn because I want my skills and experience to speak for me.


----------



## csxjohn

I tried to add Brian to one of the facebook groups I belong to and was told "you can't add someone who is banned."

Some of the admins out there don't want the truth in their little kingdom groups.


----------



## Passepartout

csxjohn said:


> Good one, he claims to care about causes for education and when Brian points out the need for educating yourself before buying vaca time he lashes out.
> 
> Causes Eric cares about:
> Animal Welfare
> Children
> Civil Rights and Social Action
> Economic Empowerment
> Education
> Environment
> Health
> Human Rights
> Disaster and Humanitarian Relief
> Politics
> Poverty Alleviation



Interesting. Except for the entry 'Disaster', he even took the time to alphabetize the list. The dude is a piece o' work.


----------



## TUGBrian

csxjohn said:


> I tried to add Brian to one of the facebook groups I belong to and was told "you can't add someone who is banned."
> 
> Some of the admins out there don't want the truth in their little kingdom groups.



haha, which group was i banned from?  you dont get notified when you get banned.

but yes ive been told on a number of sites that they wont tolerate the mention of rescinding or resale, and only positive posts are allowed.

its ridiculous.


----------



## csxjohn

TUGBrian said:


> haha, which group was i banned from?  you dont get notified when you get banned.
> 
> but yes ive been told on a number of sites that they wont tolerate the mention of rescinding or resale, and only positive posts are allowed.
> 
> its ridiculous.



BG resort addicts is all positive and I'm sure you're banned from it but it was Bluegreen Owners Buy and Sell, a public group.

The admin there has stated he wanted only deeds for sale and the started other groups for rentals and rental wanted but it continues to list for rent ads also.

I like to look through it to see what peeps are offering.  Like going through the bargain deals and LMR here.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1415493675355850/


----------



## Ty1on

TUGBrian said:


> haha, which group was i banned from?  you dont get notified when you get banned.
> 
> but yes ive been told on a number of sites that they wont tolerate the mention of rescinding or resale, and only positive posts are allowed.
> 
> its ridiculous.



I personally consider comments about rescission and resale to be the most positive posts possible.


----------



## TUGBrian

yea, the resort addicts was the one that demanded only positive posts and specifically said no mention of rescission or resale was allowed.

its a shame to, as they get many people who just bought...and are just showered with congratulations and praise vs actually being given the option to rescind and buy the exact same thing on the resale market.

ive seen many "resale = bottom feeders" comments there in the past, they seem to believe retail makes you a better person/owner.


----------



## Ty1on

TUGBrian said:


> yea, the resort addicts was the one that demanded only positive posts and specifically said no mention of rescission or resale was allowed.
> 
> its a shame to, as they get many people who just bought...and are just showered with congratulations and praise vs actually being given the option to rescind and buy the exact same thing on the resale market.
> 
> ive seen many "resale = bottom feeders" comments there in the past, they seem to believe retail makes you a better person/owner.



I'm proud to be called a bottom feeder.  In a month, I have taken on a week per year in places I want to be, for the cost of MF going forward, and full use of a resort pool and gym (Day Use) that costs me $117 per year with the bonus of an interval to trade, use, or give away every three years.

I am proud to be a bottom feeder.


----------



## csxjohn

It is a shame, they are doing a dis-service to new owners by telling them their options.

BG sends new owners to that site and they are allowed to use the BG logo so they do what BG wants.

I wish they would dis allow the question that come in about buyers remorse.  Tell them the whole story or don't let them pose the question.


----------



## Ty1on

csxjohn said:


> It is a shame, they are doing a dis-service to new owners by telling them their options.
> 
> BG sends new owners to that site and they are allowed to use the BG logo so they do what BG wants.
> 
> I wish they would dis allow the question that come in about buyers remorse.  Tell them the whole story or don't let them pose the question.



On the other hand, every resale fish becomes bluefin tuna for resale buyers, eventually.  It isn't unethical if you've done what you can to educate them before they collapse.


----------



## TUGBrian

its even worse with BG because the resale points are literally worth zero in the resale market....yet are still actively sold at retail prices.


----------



## Timeshare Von

SmithOp said:


> It doesnt take much to find Eric's employment info.
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/pub/eric-strode/2a/975/253
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using the strange new version of Tapatalk



WOW seemingly a t/s lifer, since the late 1980's.


----------



## TUGBrian

and apparently back for more today!


----------



## TUGBrian

wow, and hes officially gone off the deep end today...must have forgotten his meds

im going to unfriend him after this last nonsense, but here is his last post (warning before you click to expand it, its very vulgar)


----------



## Ken555

TUGBrian said:


> wow, and hes officially gone off the deep end today...must have forgotten his meds
> 
> 
> 
> im going to unfriend him after this last nonsense, but here is his last post (warning before you click to expand it, its very vulgar)




Wow! What an absolute idiot. If there were only standards in the timeshare industry and a peer review of some sort this guy would be kicked out for posting this message. I think this is good insight into what many in the industry really think about resale and those who advocate it.


Sent from my iPad


----------



## SmithOp

He better be careful, there are laws in most states now against making cyber threats, he should be reported to Facebook admins for harrassment.


Sent from my iPad using the strange new version of Tapatalk


----------



## Jason245

SmithOp said:


> He better be careful, there are laws in most states now against making cyber threats, he should be reported to Facebook admins for harrassment.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using the strange new version of Tapatalk


I suggest reporting him to Facebook. That type of behavior probably violates their terms and conditions and I for one am scared for the life of my family as a result of his threats. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## Ty1on

TUGBrian said:


> Actual facebook page for those that wish to friend us!
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/TimeshareUsersGroup



It looks like I got unfriended somehow


----------



## Beefnot

TUGBrian, I really don't get why you are on such a mission to promote the discrediting od timeshare salesmen and shame of buying retail.  You say the point is education and presenting the other side of the story, but no it seems really vindictive and spiteful.  One can promote TUG and buying resale without being so antagonistic. I do realize the mob mentality hatred that exists on TUG against salespeople and the utter repugnance of buying retail, but it just isn't all that good a look.  

Don't get me wrong, I can envision no scenario under which 99% of consumers could benefit by buying retail over resale, and I also think timeshare salespeople are prone to distortions of truth.  However, I do not broadly demonize the purchasing of retail, since those retail buyers do provide us resale buyers an invaluable service, and I recognize that the nature of sales is to create demand, and the good ones in any industry can do just that by massaging facts to present a desired "truth".


----------



## TUGBrian

it is indeed a shame that it takes such dialog like this to actually attract the attention of the general public...but such is society today it seems.

I am always baffled by how folks seem to feel that the mention or support or promotion of resale somehow equates to demonizing or bashing of retail.  Ive said it many many times, if you are educated about both options and choose to buy retail, there is no problem with that whatsoever and you will never get anything other than congratulations on your purchase.

but unfortunately until its common knowledge (likely never) for potential timeshare buyers to even know resale is an option, its up to TUG to try to inform as many owners as possible that it is indeed a viable option.  This not only benefits the buyer, as he now has more options to purchase and can make an educated and informed decision (how the free market should work anyway)...but it creates opportunities for owners who wish to sell!

It is not my intention to bash salesman, ive met a good many of them that do their best to not reinforce the stereotype that is clearly depicted in the threads above, but im also not blind seeing day in and day out reports of owners who attended sales presentations and encountered the very things that give said salespersons such a bad name in the first place.


----------



## Jason245

Beefnot said:


> TUGBrian, I really don't get why you are on such a mission to promote the discrediting od timeshare salesmen and shame of buying retail.  You say the point is education and presenting the other side of the story, but no it seems really vindictive and spiteful.  One can promote TUG and buying resale without being so antagonistic. I do realize the mob mentality hatred that exists on TUG against salespeople and the utter repugnance of buying retail, but it just isn't all that good a look.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I can envision no scenario under which 99% of consumers could benefit by buying retail over resale, and I also think timeshare salespeople are prone to distortions of truth.  However, I do not broadly demonize the purchasing of retail, since those retail buyers do provide us resale buyers an invaluable service, and I recognize that the nature of sales is to create demand, and the good ones in any industry can do just that by massaging facts to present a desired "truth".


There are many non profits out there that take a similar approach,  especially when the education they are trying to give the public runs directly against a well financed marketing engine. . One that comes to mind is the anti smoking advertising. .

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## ronandjoan

Beefnot said:


> TUGBrian, I really don't get why you are on such a mission to promote the discrediting od timeshare salesmen and shame of buying retail.  You say the point is education and presenting the other side of the story, but no it seems really vindictive and spiteful.  One can promote TUG and buying resale without being so antagonistic. I do realize the mob mentality hatred that exists on TUG against salespeople and the utter repugnance of buying retail, but it just isn't all that good a look.  .



It's the poor social/sales skills of so many timeshare salespeople which result in truly horrible experiences which "turn us off" to attending sales presentations.  At least 50% of the ones we have attended, if not more, have told us direct lies, been rude and even angry.  The few good ones we've had were good experiences. (I can think of only 2 though) and one of those we returned to buy more points, so they got two purchases from us. 

Despite the promises at the "parking pass" desk that " our manager does not allow high pressure" it has not been followed through by the salesperson; apparently they had not been told that.

    We are happy with what we have, we can timeshare 52 weeks of the year, so we don't need any more. And we're getting older as well and will begin to slow down.  But the salesmen insist we need more, and here's why... They'll start listing the..XYZ.... [One reason is we'd never get to be in  Tower 6 at Bonnet Creek!!! Thats a sales pitch to spend $39,000?  (And indeed, we were in Tower 6 the next visit anyway, because points are points are points).]


----------



## rapmarks

Joan poor social skills hits the nail on the head.

Many timeshare salespersons are decent people, but in the years living in a timeshare resort I have seen salesmen:  beat their wife with a pool cue; be caught snorting cocaine in the restroom at the restaurant on property; get into shouting matches and threaten people in the bar; get into fistfights in the parking lot; run up huge bar tabs and never pay it, threaten employees to not charge them for all their drinks; behave so badly they and all employees not allowed in the restaurant.  
also have listened to bragging non stop  how much money they have; this usually followed by bankruptcy or foreclosure.   Many are my neighbors or former neighbors.  I have seen many come and go; invariably run into them on timeshare exchanges elsewhere.  Usually if I reported the meeting the people still at this resort would say he left owing me money.  
I would say the young ones trying it out do not realize that some of the things they say are not true.  The experienced ones are professional liars.  
This is a true story.  In 1987 when we bought our lot, the sales manger told us that when his friend told him about selling timeshares he said an that has to be illegal, you are going to end up in jail.  that sales manager got out of the business, but the "friend" is a super high up in the business now.
we still have neighbors who sell timeshare for a living, they are good people, but they managed to keep their heads on straight when they made a lot of money.


----------



## billymach4

Really shameful that there are individual salesmen who resort to such vile exchanges. 

Brian, keep up the good work in exposing the true dark sided TS salespeople of the industry. 

I do understand the product must be sold in order to get into marketplace. But it is the tactics that leave us with a bad taste. 

If only there was a better sales model.


----------



## lschaaf

Beefnot said:


> TUGBrian, I really don't get why you are on such a mission to promote the discrediting od timeshare salesmen and shame of buying retail.  You say the point is education and presenting the other side of the story, but no it seems really vindictive and spiteful.  One can promote TUG and buying resale without being so antagonistic. I do realize the mob mentality hatred that exists on TUG against salespeople and the utter repugnance of buying retail, but it just isn't all that good a look.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I can envision no scenario under which 99% of consumers could benefit by buying retail over resale, and I also think timeshare salespeople are prone to distortions of truth.  However, I do not broadly demonize the purchasing of retail, since those retail buyers do provide us resale buyers an invaluable service, and I recognize that the nature of sales is to create demand, and the good ones in any industry can do just that by massaging facts to present a desired "truth".



I have to say, I feel the same.  SOMEONE has to buy retail, or the new developments will stop or terms will change again to the detriment of current owners.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Fret Not.*




lschaaf said:


> SOMEONE has to buy retail, or the new developments will stop or terms will change again to the detriment of current owners.


Nah. 

If no timeshare company ever built another timeshare resort or added any more units to existing timeshares, there would still be plenty enough timeshare units for everybody who wants one, far into the future. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## raygo123

There is one way to assure fairness, price schedules. That no matter where u buy your points. Let me give u an example my wife and I just returned from NYC Wyndham 

In May 21st we bought 128,000 point when national sales for Wyndham called and offered us a price of $130/1000 points.  Said wanted to close out a contract we had from March 2013.  In February of 2014 in seagarden Florida the price was over $150/1000 points 

Makes alot of sense.  Not.  

Let's now return to July of this year in NYC midtown.
We now had 154000 point we bought back in 1988 as a resale.

The contract we bought in March 2013 for 190000 at
$130/1000 ponts the contract from May 21 of this year for $130/1000 points we bought 128,000 

Almost forgot the pics for 210000 points which made us VIP silver.

Now in NYC it was presented to co
mbine all the legal point and buy 172000 to become gold.  I mentioned the may sale should have a price freeze at the $130/1000
Price. The sales manager checked an said no freeze
Existed. The best price he quoted was$150/1000.
Guess what we trusted him ha. When I returned home, the May agreement was there and in fact had a freeze on the May purchase for 128000 points. Called contract resolution and they basically said tuff.  And that each resort has their own inventory and if I wanted a better price I should have bought at Branson mo.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## vacationhopeful

raygo123 said:


> ..... Let me give u an example my wife and I just returned from *NYC Wyndham *
> 
> In May 21st we bought 128,000 point when *national sales for Wyndham *.... price of $130/1000 points.  ... In February of 2014 in seagarden Florida the price was over $150/1000 points
> 
> ....
> Let's now return to July of this year in NYC midtown.
> We now had 154000 point we bought back in 1988 as a resale.
> 
> The contract we bought in March 2013 for 190000 at
> $130/1000 ponts the contract from May 21 of this year for $130/1000 points we bought 128,000
> 
> ....Now NYC .. The best price he quoted was$150/1000.
> .....  And that each resort has their own inventory and if I wanted a better price I should have bought at Branson mo.
> 
> .....



Inventory available or whom/site is Licensed to Sell Real Estate in the state where the property is located?

Your perception of being cheated and the sales manager's not so enlightening statement is WHERE the TRUTH is between. NYC is a licensed location with NY State licensed agent & managers and is NOT selling Branson real estate (which it is NOT license to do). Your PRICE per thousand points was an offered based in NYC or another locale? The value of real estate is WHAT you are buying ....

If your case presented here was for CWA points ... you might have an discussion. Not for CWP Points - those are deeded and must following the real estate laws where they are being sold to YOU.


----------



## Ty1on

vacationhopeful said:


> Inventory available or whom/site is Licensed to Sell Real Estate in the state where the property is located?
> 
> Your perception of being cheated and the sales manager's not so enlightening statement is WHERE the TRUTH is between. NYC is a licensed location with NY State licensed agent & managers and is NOT selling Branson real estate (which it is NOT license to do). Your PRICE per thousand points was an offered based in NYC or another locale? The value of real estate is WHAT you are buying ....
> 
> If your case presented here was for CWA points ... you might have an discussion. Not for CWP Points - those are deeded and must following the real estate laws where they are being sold to YOU.



I actually get what he is saying, and it's a little reverse from your response.

Of course a deed at any given location is dependent upon the legal, construction, and marketing costs of that location.  A perfect points system would take into account cost of ownership, at least from an equity perspective.  If it costs you twice as much to buy into NYC, then the club membership based on that deed should convey twice as many points.  That way, the cost-in of any given resort is conveyed in its trading power.

If a developer cannot economically build a resort that trades fair with other resorts within the system, then they shouldn't build (or buy) it.


----------



## raygo123

That is the point, no land deed no inventory as it is club access only points as of today NYC midtown is not even part of access. So I bought into a national program, and international are they "licensed" to sell that???   Knowing a bit about real estate employees of Wyndham don't need a license now do they? And there is no deed. It's points!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## raygo123

Also she could have interchanged Branson with many others point, with standard pricing takes liers nitwits and all other things their sales people have been called. Yes god put bugs snakes lizard s all on this earth, but all are necessary.  

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## ondeadlin

Brian, I'm amazed that you have the patience to keep trying when you have to deal with abuse like that salesperson.  As one of the thousands of people TUG has saved from buying retail, I thank you for what you do.

As for the argument that "somebody has to buy retail," I think one can agree that that's true, but also believe that in an honest market - i.e. one that wasn't based largely on high-pressure sales tactics - developers could charge an honest price and still make money.  They'd just make LESS money.  But obviously they're not interested in that.  They'd rather make as much money as they can, even if it means they have to play fast-and-loose with the facts and use sales tactics that ultimately leave a lot of people feeling scammed.

It wouldn't destroy the retail new construction timeshare market if every consumer were an educated consumer, it would just make it less profitable.


----------



## Beefnot

ondeadlin said:


> It wouldn't destroy the retail new construction timeshare market if every consumer were an educated consumer, it would just make it less profitable.



 Indeed, and at minimum the developments would likely be less extravagant. At maximum, the lack of the healthy margins would likely create disincentive to create many new developments. Also, although the gross margins may be very healthy on each individual sale, the net margins on the balance might possibly be much less extravagant. There is so much inventory holding cost for years, and sometimes decades, until a resort is sold out.


----------



## ondeadlin

Beefnot said:


> Indeed, and at minimum the developments would likely be less extravagant. At maximum, the lack of the healthy margins would likely create disincentive to create many new developments. Also, although the gross margins may be very healthy on each individual sale, the net margins on the balance might possibly be much less extravagant. There is so much inventory holding cost for years, and sometimes decades, until a resort is sold out.



New construction would still have some premium.  Using Hawaii as an example, if you sold 52 weeks for an average price of $20,000 (a price higher than resale, but much less than current retail for, say, the new Hyatt property or the new Marriott towers flanking it), you'd essentially be selling a $1 million condo.  Even with the hassle of having to sell each individual week, I think there's still plenty of profit to be made on that model.

Would there - perhaps - be fewer amenities and a slower pace of growth?  Perhaps, but I'm not sure that's necessary a bad thing.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Nothing Sez High-Pressure Arm Twisting Is The Only Way To Sell Timeshares.*




ondeadlin said:


> It wouldn't destroy the retail new construction timeshare market if every consumer were an educated consumer, it would just make it less profitable.


Shux, moving to an honesty-based sales model, cutting out the high-pressure razzle-dazzle & ballyhoo, would save lots. 

Who's to say they couldn't improve profit margins by moving to more of a Wal-Mart sales model ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## Ken555

AwayWeGo said:


> Who's to say they couldn't improve profit margins by moving to more of a Wal-Mart sales model ?





Would you buy a timeshare, retail, from a Walmart staffer? ROFL


Sent from my iPad


----------



## csxjohn

Ken555 said:


> Would you buy a timeshare, retail, from a Walmart staffer? ROFL
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad



If all the facts are presented and the price is right, why not?


----------



## Ken555

csxjohn said:


> If all the facts are presented and the price is right, why not?




You missed the point. Don't take this the wrong way, but I have a hard time believing Walmart staffers could effectively replace timeshare retail sales. Yes, I'm saying that an expensive timeshare sales can not be effectively sold by minimum wage employees. 

OMG, did I just defend timeshare sales? I need a drink.


Sent from my iPad


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Why Not ?*




Ken555 said:


> Would you buy a timeshare, retail, from a Walmart staffer?


If I wanted a full-freight timeshare, I'd sooner buy it from Wal-Mart or Costco, etc., than from any timeshare company.  

But I wasn't so much advocating the Wal-Mart company as a timeshare dealer.  Rather, I was suggesting timeshare companies move to something more like a Wal-Mart sales model, abandoning all that expensive high-pressure razzle-dazzle & ballyhoo. 

Plus, I'd lots rather keep on buying timeshares resale -- or getting'm _el freebo_.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## billymach4

Forget Walmart / Costco.

Develop a nice resort. Offer some promo deals without the sales tour mumbo jumbo. Offer a reasonable priced deal without the markup required for such exorbitant marketing and commission

Create a menu of options to buy in, on site or via internet sales, with minimal overhead.

Cut out the salesman and the dirty baggage that goes along with the forced sales.


----------



## billymach4

However I am about to contradict myself here.

With the following products and services there is a large segment of the population that requires education in order to make a purchase.

Life Insurance and Annuites

Automobiles 

Stocks, Bonds

Etc.

This is where a qualified salesperson is required. Here on Tug many of us have been educated in the way of Timeshare. So in essence we feel at home buying resales sight unseen.

If you understand how Life Insurance works you don't need to be educated in Life and Annuities. There are ways to purchase these products using a self service model. Same goes for Stocks, and Bonds.

Automobiles are still locked into the dealer/Salesman model unfortunately due to Dealer pressure at the state legislature. 

"AND THE BEAT GOES ON"


----------



## Beefnot

I would prefer Nordstrom quality brands and products. Their margins are quite healthy. Now I will pay Nordstrom Rack or TJ Maxx prices for the same merchandise.

 As for the sales model, the gross margins on new cars are usually quite healthy as well. People do not know they "need" a particular vehicle without the commercials, marketing collateral, and sales folks to help them realize it.  Most products do not just sell themselves without a significant investment in sales and marketing.


----------



## Ty1on

billymach4 said:


> However I am about to contradict myself here.
> 
> With the following products and services there is a large segment of the population that requires education in order to make a purchase.
> 
> Life Insurance and Annuites
> 
> Automobiles
> 
> Stocks, Bonds
> 
> Etc.
> 
> This is where a qualified salesperson is required. Here on Tug many of us have been educated in the way of Timeshare. So in essence we feel at home buying resales sight unseen.
> 
> If you understand how Life Insurance works you don't need to be educated in Life and Annuities. There are ways to purchase these products using a self service model. Same goes for Stocks, and Bonds.
> 
> Automobiles are still locked into the dealer/Salesman model unfortunately due to Dealer pressure at the state legislature.
> 
> "AND THE BEAT GOES ON"



I think the prime challenge is that timeshares have to be sold, not bought.  People seek out a bottle of milk, a TV, a car, a house, even a hotel rental.  Timeshare, however, beyond education, requires that the salesman motivate the buyer to the buy decision.  In order to do that, he has to get the potential buyer seated in front of him.  In order to do that, he has to offer enticements of reward to the sucker buyer.  Even if a lot of shady conmen gave the industry a bad reputation, the reward presentation model is ubiquitous for a reason--It works.

For validation of this, consider how many victims don't find out they could have bought their $20K timeshare for $2K until AFTER they purchased.  This tells me that they had no intention of purchasing, even after scheduling a presentation (if it was in advance).  Ho much time does the average consumer spend researching their purchase of a car, house or computer?  Many even spend a great deal of time researching a hotel rental to find the best combination of price and reviews.

My read from this is that the average victim has no intention of buying the timeshare when he takes his seat.


----------



## billymach4

Ty1on said:


> I think the prime challenge is that timeshares have to be sold, not bought.  People seek out a bottle of milk, a TV, a car, a house, even a hotel rental.  Timeshare, however, beyond education, requires that the salesman motivate the buyer to the buy decision.  In order to do that, he has to get the potential buyer seated in front of him.  In order to do that, he has to offer enticements of reward to the sucker buyer.  Even if a lot of shady conmen gave the industry a bad reputation, the reward presentation model is ubiquitous for a reason--It works.
> 
> For validation of this, consider how many victims don't find out they could have bought their $20K timeshare for $2K until AFTER they purchased.  This tells me that they had no intention of purchasing, even after scheduling a presentation (if it was in advance).  Ho much time does the average consumer spend researching their purchase of a car, house or computer?  Many even spend a great deal of time researching a hotel rental to find the best combination of price and reviews.
> 
> My read from this is that the average victim has no intention of buying the timeshare when he takes his seat.



The beauty of TUG is that many first time buyers end up with immediately after purchase and immediately rescind. 

I was one of those suckers for sure!

But I rescinded!

However there are exceptions where someone may have a reason to intentionally purchase resale. I say go ahead and buy direct. Someone has to take the plunge!


----------



## raygo123

To effect change one thing has to happen on every presentation we must state or views.  I have everything documented and am sending a package to the NY attorney general.  Right wrong a fool what ever I'm going to at least try to air my point.  "It's my money and I want answers now". Ha-ha 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## raygo123

As far as enticements, first time buyer prices as we
L as volume discount the more u buy...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ty1on

billymach4 said:


> The beauty of TUG is that many first time buyers end up with immediately after purchase and immediately rescind.
> 
> I was one of those suckers for sure!
> 
> But I rescinded!
> 
> However there are exceptions where someone may have a reason to intentionally purchase resale. I say go ahead and buy direct. Someone has to take the plunge!



I would love to have a Club Wyndham contract, but I am not in the position to pay the going rate for one, even though I see that value in it.  However, because, certainly on ebay, the price paid for resale represents a near perfect market value, it only serves to highlight a contract's true value in contrast to the developer cost.  If more people researched timeshare before getting pulled into presentations, it would crack the foundation of the timeshare industry.  To me, this is a further indication that timeshares have to be sold the way they are.  If the developer were to say, "here is my product, buy it or don't," they simply wouldn't sell many intervals, and they would collapse.  Then we would have few resales to buy.


----------



## Makai Guy

Way back in the dark ages when I was moderating the Hawaii board on our original home brew bbs software, I remember there was one new timeshare development on Maui that was being handled much as some here propose.  They didn't rope people in with incentives and jack the price up to pay for all their promotional expenses.  No lying about the program, or mis-explaining trading.  Everything was very low key.  If you were interested, you called, made an appointment, and the manager showed you around and explained the program.  Their price was quite a few thousand dollars below what most everybody else was selling for.

I just looked through the list of Maui timeshares to see if anything would "ring a bell".   I *think* the one I'm remembering was One Napili Way.  Apparently they were able to sell all the units as their website currently only mentions resales.


----------



## Ty1on

Makai Guy said:


> Way back in the dark ages when I was moderating the Hawaii board on our original home brew bbs software, I remember there was one new timeshare development on Maui that was being handled much as some here propose.  They didn't rope people in with incentives and jack the price up to pay for all their promotional expenses.  No lying about the program, or mis-explaining trading.  Everything was very low key.  If you were interested, you called, made an appointment, and the manager showed you around and explained the program.  Their price was quite a few thousand dollars below what most everybody else was selling for.
> 
> I just looked through the list of Maui timeshares to see if anything would "ring a bell".   I *think* the one I'm remembering was One Napili Way.  Apparently they were able to sell all the units as their website currently only mentions resales.



That would be one exception to the rule.  There are certainly others.  I still argue that the vast majority of timeshares out there won't sell themselves.  Maybe the developers are at fault for building inventory beyond market demand?

btw One Napili Way has  halted their Phase II indefinitely because of the economy (it's refreshing that they stated that honestly on their website instead of spinning it), and their resales start from $8K for a biennial, $14K for an annual.


----------



## billymach4

Beefnot said:


> I would prefer Nordstrom quality brands and products. Their margins are quite healthy. Now I will pay Nordstrom Rack or TJ Maxx prices for the same merchandise.
> 
> As for the sales model, the gross margins on new cars are usually quite healthy as well. People do not know they "need" a particular vehicle without the commercials, marketing collateral, and sales folks to help them realize it.  Most products do not just sell themselves without a significant investment in sales and marketing.



You are correct about the marketing angle. The Advertising and Marketing industry is a HUGE component of the economy. Billions, and Billions of $$$, and millions of JOBS. 

One of the latest trends in Advertising is the use of unstructured data. This is spawned an entirely new segment of the IT landscape (BIG DATA).


----------



## TUGBrian

it is amusing when you make a post, and the only people responding to the post to claim its wrong are salesman, or upfront fee company employees =)

https://www.facebook.com/TimeshareUsersGroup/posts/10153576087391255


----------



## LannyPC

I just read that Facebook page you set a link to.  Any idea what business the other three in that conversation run?  Have any of them ever come here on TUGBBS to explain or defend their business models?


----------



## raygo123

What if resellers booked FOR wyhndam all would have to be higher than reserve then Wyndham can rid themselves of rentals

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## TUGBrian

it becomes pretty obvious that folks with certain attitudes are most definitely in the timeshare sales field....or spent a good bit of time there at a previous job.


----------



## raygo123

Or none of above

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## TUGBrian

vs messing up that other thread, I figured i post a new link on here, as it carries on with the theme of this thread!

https://www.facebook.com/TimeshareUsersGroup/posts/10153675842656255

this post was about the westgate hidden folder...and it clearly caught the eye of a number of folks in the industry....

some juicy comments sofar:



> One day TUG will give us useful information.





> I find your articles one sided and therefore lacking credibility. You obviously had a bad experience in some way and now you attack the industry and make owners feel foolish.





> Tug was obviously set up to slander the industry.


----------



## Beefnot

That hidden folder is one of the lowdownest things ever, and some folks have the nerve to shoot the messenger.


----------



## TUGBrian

is another facebook page for timeshare salespersons that I somehow got added to, its a fascinating look into that culture at times...but this most recent discussion was over the top.

somehow an owner found his way to that page (of salesmen) and posted that he recently purchased a silverleaf timeshare and was flat out lied to during his presentation....these are some of the comments from the salespersons on that facebook page:



> Haha nothing you can do welcome to time share $$$





> Define lied to please,you also signed a truth of Lending





> If you want to spend money A timeshare relief company will get you out of it as well


  (appears to work for a relief company)



> Go to Branson and buy another one !!





> buy more





> When its payed off can give ya 5 bucks for it...





> He bought once he will buy again..





> what lies? you can go on great vacations? That'd true





> Stupid enough to buy it ...





> they bought a vacation that's what they get?




at this point I couldnt stand it, and provided the guy some actual advice (to avoid the upfront fee scammers, and attempt to rescind despite it being long past) here are the comments directed at TUG once I replied:



> Why dont you help feed the hungy people and do something that counts





> And I wonder whats your interest tug .... Im sure you dont live off the church charity





> maybe you should not comment at all?





> nobody is forced to buy! they buy it on their own?





> people still buying and using no matter what your opinion is





> please stop, we know your game, go back to your web site and catch my crumbles bye




truly a depressing look at how salespeople really feel about owners...


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Push Back -- Buy Timeshares Resale & Keep On Absorbing Sales Pitch Freebies !*




TUGBrian said:


> truly a depressing look at how salespeople really feel about owners...


Maybe absorbing timeshare tour freebies is 1 form of payback (in some small, semi-insignificant way). 

Meanwhile, shux upon the full-freight timeshare companies & double-shux upon the full-freight timeshare sellers. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## TUGBrian

appears one of the salesman who got mad decided to report our page to facebook and thus it was shut down/converted to a non user page.

such friendly people in this industry!  they stop at nothing to prevent owners from getting the information they need to make educated decisions!


----------



## billymach4

TUGBrian said:


> appears one of the salesman who got mad decided to report our page to facebook and thus it was shut down/converted to a non user page.
> 
> such friendly people in this industry!  they stop at nothing to prevent owners from getting the information they need to make educated decisions!



It is almost impossible to get thru to FB to get them to undo this situation. What a load of BS. 

Did FB notify you in any communication?


----------



## TUGBrian

nope, just couldnt log into the facebook page anymore, it said it had "converted" the page to a fan type page....it wont even let me merge it with the other Timeshare Users Group page either...which is super annoying.

the biggest annoyance is that was the account that was a member of all the individual timeshare owner groups on FB that we participated personally on.


----------



## TUGBrian

and the really sad part, is that doing this has effectively deleted the entire discussion and post about the westgate hidden folder because it was all done on the tug timeshare page as a regular account, now that it is a "fan page" all posts made by it and posted to it have been deleted.

I can also only imagine every post ever made by that account on all the private facebook pages has also similarly been removed.

thats a real shame.


----------



## Goofyhobbie

*TUG Facebook Page*

Brian,

At 2:06 A. M. EST I went to Facebook and typed in Timeshare Users Group.

A page came up indicating 1 person (probably yours truly) had been there and 2,756 people like the page.

https://www.facebook.com/Timeshare-Users-Group-95675922829/timeline/

Is it possible that as of this morning the page has been re-loaded and is now available for people to post.

Opps! Just realized the page you were apparently writing about was a page that comes up when you go to Facebook and search for "TUG TIMESHARE." The result that came back with TUG TIMESHARE looks like this page with the "bandaged thumb" appearing with the words TUG TIMESHARE in the Search Block.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=678696254&fref=ts


----------



## Jason245

I would contact some of the news people you have had interviews with over the years and tell them about this situation. . I could imagine an article about how Facebook helped enable people to get ripped off would go over..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## TUGBrian

yes, the "tug timeshare" page is the one that was removed or converted to a regular fan type page.

the other timeshare users group page still exists unchanged....but now we have two separate pages with the same or similar info...different likes...but doing the same thing.  and it specifically says they are not able to be merged when you try to do so.

very sad day for TUG indeed.  what a waste.


----------



## Ty1on

TUGBrian said:


> yes, the "tug timeshare" page is the one that was removed or converted to a regular fan type page.
> 
> the other timeshare users group page still exists unchanged....but now we have two separate pages with the same or similar info...different likes...but doing the same thing.  and it specifically says they are not able to be merged when you try to do so.
> 
> very sad day for TUG indeed.  what a waste.



Exactly what policy did the page violate?


----------



## TUGBrian

they claimed it wasnt actually an individual facebook account page, but instead a commercial entity and thus converted it to one of those pages.


----------



## csxjohn

TUGBrian said:


> they claimed it wasnt actually an individual facebook account page, but instead a commercial entity and thus converted it to one of those pages.



It looks like you're going to have to open a new FB page under a name like  TUGBrian for you to able to post your warnings to the various FB pages.


----------



## TUGBrian

yes, that was required...and now these two "other" pages exist under that facebook account now.  its just annoying that all those previous posts, private messages and friendships/etc were all deleted.

and that it wont let you merge these two (the tug timeshare, and timeshare users group) pages into one.  just a very ridiculous "change"


----------



## sfischthal

:rofl::rofl:
We have been time-sharing since the early 90s and love it... We own 5 timeshares, all purchased on the secondary market from people who had tired of TSing and wanted out. We were happy to provide the out they were looking for... Every single presentation we have attended has been riddled with half-truths and sometimes outright lies... most salespeople are quite nice, they all come from wherever you live and have relatives in your town... the last time we thought of purchasing and then rescinded we were treated as persona non-grate!    We enjoy the challenge of the presentation... we are up front and let the salesperson know we will not be buying,:ignore: just listening to kill an hour or two.... they smile and go on with their spiel....


----------



## davidvel

csxjohn said:


> It looks like you're going to have to open a new FB page under a name like  TUGBrian for you to able to post your warnings to the various FB pages.


I know it sucks, but this has been longstanding FB policy. Regular accounts are for individual humans, not groups, businesses, etc. 

Also you can comment and post with the "page" you administer, instead of your individual account. Just click the page you want under "Use Facebook as:" under the down arrow at the far right top of any page. (This takes some getting used to.)


----------



## freediverdude

Sadly, if there were not direct purchases, a lot of these timeshares simply would not exist.  In fact it's the very definition of resale.

I do have a feeling that in the future, with people more informed, that these companies will be forced to differentiate direct and resale purchases a lot more, with additional perks enticing people to purchase direct, at least until the property is completely sold.  It's the only way that these companies will be able to profitably build new properties.


----------



## Passepartout

freediverdude said:


> Sadly, if there were not direct purchases, a lot of these timeshares simply would not exist.  In fact it's the very definition of resale.
> 
> I do have a feeling that in the future, with people more informed, that these companies will be forced to differentiate direct and resale purchases a lot more, with additional perks enticing people to purchase direct, at least until the property is completely sold.  It's the only way that these companies will be able to profitably build new properties.



All well and good, but let's say that you have a timeshare that you bought from the developer for (pulling a number out of nowhere) $20,000 when you were 40. You paid the ever increasing MF, and every year at 11 months out, you booked your favorite week or deposited it with the exchange company. 

Now, you are 65. Wife has divorced you, kids are all grown and gone. Income doesn't meet expenses. You decide to sell this timeshare, and find out that the developer (who still has a commissioned sales staff onsite and controls the HOA) has quadrupled the cost of internal exchanges, and only allows resale buyers to book whatever vacancies are available 2 months before move-in and all that's left is 'mud weeks'. Your timeshare has no value and even worse, you have to pay someone to take it off your hands.

What are you gonna do? Pay another year's extravagant (now) MF? Pay someone to take it, though you can't afford it? Give it to the kids who don't want it? Pay some Viking Ship outfit to load it on their LLC and bankrupt you out of it, leaving the upkeep and financial mess to the other owners (including the developer in this case)?

No, what needs to happen is for developers to initiate a plan whereas owners in good standing can sell their interest back to the HOA to be re-sold. New owners would be treated as exactly what they are- OWNERS! 

This whole thing is so simple that anyone should be able to see it. Like used cars at factory branded dealers, 'used' (they're all used) timeshares have value, since they don't need to be re-built, and if they are properly maintained, they should sell for near their original cost.

You'll note, I'm not holding my breath waiting for this to happen.

Jim


----------



## TUGBrian

davidvel said:


> I know it sucks, but this has been longstanding FB policy. Regular accounts are for individual humans, not groups, businesses, etc.
> 
> Also you can comment and post with the "page" you administer, instead of your individual account. Just click the page you want under "Use Facebook as:" under the down arrow at the far right top of any page. (This takes some getting used to.)



yes, we were already doing that...we had setup the page for timeshare users group as the commecial page...and the regular account setup to manage it was simply called tug timeshare.

this had been going on for many years.


----------



## TUGBrian

shucks...lost another "friend" today!

https://www.facebook.com/TimeshareU...95675922829/10154152723882830/?type=3&theater


----------



## bendadin




----------



## Ty1on

TUGBrian said:


> shucks...lost another "friend" today!
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/TimeshareU...95675922829/10154152723882830/?type=3&theater



Unliked and blocked by a sales weasel.  What a horrifying tragedy!


----------

