# New purchase incentives



## potchak (Jan 29, 2009)

> MARRIOTT VACATION CLUB~
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you need a rep, let me know.


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## thinze3 (Jan 29, 2009)

I think it is interesting that Crystal Shores is not on those lists.


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## Steve (Jan 29, 2009)

*Just say no.*

Those prices are absolutely nuts considering how cheap Marriott weeks are on the resale market right now.  

Steve


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## GeNioS (Jan 29, 2009)

potchak said:


> If you need a rep, let me know.



A tumbleweed rolls by.....The distant howl of a lone wolf.....A saloon door wobbles and creaks, pushed by an eerie gust of wind....


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## Hoc (Jan 30, 2009)

And add to the whole thing that Marriott recently devalued their points by about 50 percent.  Who would be so nuts nowadays to pay five times the resale price for a Marriott unit when all you get is low value points as an incentive?


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## SDKath (Jan 30, 2009)

GeNioS said:


> A tumbleweed rolls by.....The distant howl of a lone wolf.....A saloon door wobbles and creaks, pushed by an eerie gust of wind....



:hysterical: Soooo true.  My BFF just picked up a Shadow Ridge for under $4000 EY Platinum!!!  

Katherine


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## sernow (Jan 30, 2009)

If you spent enough time searching, you could probably come close to picking up one of these weeks for the same amount as what Marriott is offering as "savings".


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## thinze3 (Jan 30, 2009)

SDKath said:


> :hysterical: Soooo true.  My BFF just picked up a Shadow Ridge for under $4000 EY Platinum!!!
> 
> Katherine



WOW! That's down there with my $3450 for DSV II annual platinum. 



_Added:
That's half of the lowest price listed on Dioxide's database.
Tell her to please add it to the list._

.


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## dougp26364 (Jan 30, 2009)

I find it interesting that Oceana Palms is listed as having a silver season. When we looked pre-construction, I noted that there was no silver season at Oceana Palms and comminted specifically that we must have done very well purchasing a silver season week at Ocean Pointe, which was just 1 mile south of Oceana Palms. I wonder if Marriott has revisited the changes they made to the seasons with Oceana Palms and how those changes, if made, would affect those who purchased pre-construction. 

Or maybe they meant Ocean Pointe. I don't recall Oceans Palms having 3 bedroom units.

EDIT: Those specials listed in the single week section must be Ocean Pointe and not Oceana Palms. I just checked the resort calender and it only shows Gold and Platinum seasons. The floor plans also on show 2 bedroom ocean front or ocean side villa's and do not list any 3 bedroom units.

At any rate, seeing that special loyalty price makes me feel good about only paying $18,900 for our Silver season ocean front 3 bedroom unit back in 2001. Seeing current resale prices doesn't make me feel quite as good.


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## thinze3 (Jan 30, 2009)

Maybe they are starting on the second tower at Oceana Palms.


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## jerseyfinn (Jan 31, 2009)

*Oceana Palms info is partly incorrect*



dougp26364 said:


> EDIT: Those specials listed in the single week section must be Ocean Pointe and not Oceana Palms . . .



Yes, you are correct Doug. Oceana Palms does not have 3BR villas, nor does it have a Silver season. Portions of the information listed as referring to Oceana Palms must be for Ocean Pointe instead.



> *OCEANA PALMS/PALM BEACH, FL PLATINUM/2 BEDROOM O/V $77,800 $72,800 $5,000*



Regarding the 2 week ownership package above. I think that this price is for Oceana Palms O/F "Platinum Premium" weeks which would apply to Christmas, New Years, or President's Weeks.



> *OCEANA PALMS/PALM BEACH, FL PLAT/2 BED O/F $51,900 $49,300 $2,600*



This looks like the correct pricing for ordinary Oceana Palms O/F Platinum weeks. The other data listed for Oceana Palms is ambiguous and more likely applies to Ocean Pointe weeks.

I'll try to see if I can obtain verified pricing.

Looking through the entire list of resorts and pricing, it looks to me as if Marriott is holding the line in terms of developer pricing as some of the "discount" prices reflect last year's prices ( while still offering MR points/incentives ) .  All in all, it is reassuring to see MVC holding the price lines in this dismal economy. As either developer purchase or resale purchase owners, we all benefit when MVC is able to hold the price line which ultimately defines the value of our weeks.

Barry


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## dioxide45 (Jan 31, 2009)

jerseyfinn said:


> All in all, it is reassuring to see MVC holding the price lines in this dismal economy. As either developer purchase or resale purchase owners, we all benefit when MVC is able to hold the price line which ultimately defines the value of our weeks.
> 
> Barry



I don't think this is an accurate statement. What Marriott charges for a week is by no means a reflection of its value. If Marriott were to raise all of their prices tomorrow by 100K it wouldn't mean you could resell your week for that much more.

They are not holding the line on prices when they offer discounts. If a week is priced at 50K and they are offering is for 45K but then later they offer a 10K discount. They have in fact lowered the price. Thay may have all the smoke and mirrors that they want and spin it in any way they wish, but this is still a sign that they have lowered their prices. I can get it cheaper today than I could last week. The price drop may be temporarily, but they are lower and I think you will see much more of this in the future.


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## Beverley (Jan 31, 2009)

Barry,

Me too. 

Beverley


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## winger (Jan 31, 2009)

old man marriott has finally fallen off his rocker. when you lose touch with reality (e.g. customers, economic climate, etc) you gotta go.


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## Jeffrey (Feb 1, 2009)

I do not understand the pricing....  at Cypress Harbour it is cheaper to by two single weeks than one two-week package.

Considering you probably won't get two consecutive weeks deeded, it make no sense to purchase the 2 weeks (if you were going to purchase direct from Marriott...)

BTW, ... resale weeks are going for just over the  "savings".

2 weeks CYPRESS HARBOUR/ORLANDO SPORT/ 2 BEDROOM $32,200 $29,900 $2,300 (??)
1 week   CYPRESS HARBOUR/ORLANDO SPORT/ 2 BEDROOM $16,100 $13,900 $2,200


2 weeks CYPRESS HARBOUR/ORLANDO SPECIAL/ 2 BEDROOM $36,800 $33,400 $3,400
1 week   CYPRESS HARBOUR/ORLANDO SPECIAL/ 2 BEDROOM $18,400 $16,900 $1,500


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## jerseyfinn (Feb 1, 2009)

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think this is an accurate statement. What Marriott charges for a week is by no means a reflection of its value. If Marriott were to raise all of their prices tomorrow by 100K it wouldn't mean you could resell your week for that much more.



That's a straw man argument dioxide. :deadhorse: 

The facts as they really exist are that Marriott is in the timeshare business for one reason . . . to sell timeshare at a profit. That is where the money is, and that is where it will always be so long as Marriott decides to play the game. The Marriott management aspect at our resorts is an ancillary income producer to Marriott, but that relationship also produces the synergy which makes our ownership flexible and valuable as both we owners, and Marriott benefit from that relationship.

 I'll tell you one thing. In this rank economy, it is reassuring to see Marriott hold the line on developer pricing. Like it or not, Marriott is the party who establishes the value of our ownership weeks, not E-Bay. The market does indeed "vote" on those prices. Currently there are no voters aside from some activity on E-Bay where distressed MVC owners are selling their weeks at frequently fire-sale prices. But these sales do not necessarily reflect where the value of these MVC weeks could really be.

As to those who becry devloper sales and laud resale purchases. Just where to you think the "set price" for resale weeks come from? In other words, we are *all* in this timeshare game together and it is in all of our interests to see Marriott developer sales do well because those of us who sell our weeks ( or purchase resale ) derive our value or price from a function of that developer price ( at least in terms of platinum and most gold season ownership ).

So yeah, I like what Marriott is doing at the moment as they are trying to hold the value of my weeks. No one is buying developer at the moment, but Marriott is gonna ride this thing out and sit back and wait for the economy to function again. It could be a two or three year rate given how poorly the economy functions at the moment. We're pretty lucky to be with a big corporation that is not gonna close shop in these dire times.

In the mean time, I'm gonna enjoy my weeks and root for Marriott because I'm a fann of Adam Smith and Mr. Marriott.  

Barry


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## dioxide45 (Feb 1, 2009)

jerseyfinn said:


> That's a straw man argument dioxide. :deadhorse:
> 
> The facts as they really exist are that Marriott is in the timeshare business for one reason . . . to sell timeshare at a profit. That is where the money is, and that is where it will always be so long as Marriott decides to play the game. The Marriott management aspect at our resorts is an ancillary income producer to Marriott, but that relationship also produces the synergy which makes our ownership flexible and valuable as both we owners, and Marriott benefit from that relationship.
> 
> I'll tell you one thing. In this rank economy, it is reassuring to see Marriott hold the line on developer pricing. Like it or not, Marriott is the party who establishes the value of our ownership weeks, not E-Bay.



The value of the ownership is what you get out of it. Marriott only sets a developer selling price. What you get out of it determines its value. If resale prices were a fixed percentage of Marriott pricing them Marriott would be setting the price accross the board, but by no means does Marriott set the value.



> The market does indeed "vote" on those prices. Currently there are no voters aside from some activity on E-Bay where distressed MVC owners are selling their weeks at frequently fire-sale prices. But these sales do not necessarily reflect where the value of these MVC weeks could really be.



The selling price on any given day will change in an open market. Currently Marriott is priced above what the market will bear or they would be selling weeks just as fast as they were last year.



> As to those who becry devloper sales and laud resale purchases. Just where to you think the "set price" for resale weeks come from? In other words, we are *all* in this timeshare game together and it is in all of our interests to see Marriott developer sales do well because those of us who sell our weeks ( or purchase resale ) derive our value or price from a function of that developer price ( at least in terms of platinum and most gold season ownership ).



I agree that it is in everyone best interest that marriott developer sales do well. The problem is that they are not currently doing well and Marriott holding the pricing line isn't helping. Those unsold weeks hold them down. Selling at a small profit is better than not selling anything at a hope of a big prifit which causes one to loose money. If I own a business and try to sell wigets at $10 at a profit of $5 each and I sell two, my profit is $10. but if I sell them for $7 and sell 100 then my profit is $200. I think it would be in Marriott's best interest to sell weeks for less of a profit per week and at least keep weeks moving. Perhaps they know more than I and know that weeks won't sell at any price for them that they can be profitable at and just decided that they will hold on to everything. By doing this though they are not making your week any more valuable.



> So yeah, I like what Marriott is doing at the moment as they are trying to hold the value of my weeks. No one is buying developer at the moment, but Marriott is gonna ride this thing out and sit back and wait for the economy to function again. It could be a two or three year rate given how poorly the economy functions at the moment. We're pretty lucky to be with a big corporation that is not gonna close shop in these dire times.



I don't think that Marriott lowering the prices would change resale prices in any impactful way. If you are trying to resell your week then the value of it is less today than it was last year as you can not sell it for what you could then. This is with Marriott holding prices. If your using your week for quality vacations then the value is what you make of it. The value is what you make of it.



> In the mean time, I'm gonna enjoy my weeks and root for Marriott because I'm a fann of Adam Smith and Mr. Marriott.
> 
> Barry



I will root for Marriott too, though the only thing that is going to help them is a turn around in the housing market. May believe that the housing market is what is holding the economy down, until that comes around the economy really won't start to grow again. They are trying to sell weeks sitting on realestate that they likely paid 40% more for than what they are worth today. Is it better to just take the hit and sell those weeks to start clean on new developments that would sit on cheaper realestate? Maybe, maybe not.


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## jerseyfinn (Feb 7, 2009)

dioxide45 said:


> The value of the ownership is what you get out of it. Marriott only sets a developer selling price. What you get out of it determines its value.
> 
> 
> Marriott holding the pricing line isn't helping. Those unsold weeks hold them down. Selling at a small profit is better than not selling anything at a hope of a big prifit which causes one to loose money.



The *value *of our TS weeks is an aesthetic. The *cost *that one pays is a real entity. They are not the same thing although I completely agree that aesthetics are an integral part of the decision to own TS. You can't have a market without a product/service, a seller or a buyer, but you can indeed have a beautiful Maui sunset at a MVC resort which remains a memory till the day you die.

Actually Marriott is doing exactly the right thing with prices at the moment because they are indeed protecting their investment ( and in the process owners' investments ). These MVC resorts require years to plan and develop as a project moves from an idea, to land acquisition, to building, and finally to build-out. Marriott has cost factored all of this, hence their ability to "guide" sales through phases of increasing prices. Marriott knows precisely what it costs them and what their revenue target is. An interesting thought is to ponder if these rules will apply in the future.  

Presently no developer market exists for TS at all. It's a plain and simple function of the economy. Marriott is not going to back off or give away weeks. Instead, they are (reassuringly) open for business and waiting for the market to turn. Their size gives them an economy of scale which allows them to sit back. And no, they are not holding on to "empty" inventory. Unsold indeed, but Marriott is using them for previews or generating cash via Marriott.com ( which brings potential buyers into contact with MVC ). Are they losing money? Probably, but so too is virtually every leisure business entity. Marriot is definitely treading water and so too MVC.

Now one of the more interesting ideas to ponder about our MVC ownership is what will happen to the value of our weeks as property values settle down region by region and market ground rules are reestablished. Remember, the "toxic mortgage blight" is most acute in California, Phoenix, Las Vegas and Florida while other parts of the country have pockets of trouble but otherwise stabalizing markets in terms of housing prices -- our Philadelphia metro area is only down -5.8% from the 2006 high and other regions are not too far above that figure ( source = December 2008 figures from Jan 09 WSJ  ). I've got no idea how real estate prices in Florida will hold up at the MVC resorts. I suspect that Orlando could be laggard for a while because of supply, but what to say about the MVC resorts located directly on the ocean such as Ocean Pointe, Oceana Palms or Marco? Oceanfront real estate is finite in good times or bad and one could conjecture that these resorts could rebound sooner than others. But I'm just thinking out loud here and not asserting anything other than the fact that I'm glad I with Marriott in this dank economy and I'm gonna enjoy our weeks while crossing my fingers that these and most destination resorts might better leverage their locations when the economy does revive. I don't thing a book has been written that comes close to explaining how this present mess will work its way out of the general economy let alone the timeshare niche. Given how our friends in Congress are acting, I'm not confident that the government won't muck this thing up more than need be.

happy & safe travels

Barry


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## Latravel (Feb 7, 2009)

I totally agree with you except one point:  _"Presently no developer market exists for TS at all"._

Timber Lodge is selling -people are buying those timeshares.  I have been trying to work with the finance people over there for resolution of an issue and they are just completely overwhelmed with how busy they are.  I heard that from different people there.  When we were there last month,  the prices have not come down at all, they have just been held constant.  It completely defies logic but there still is activity.  

I, for one, wanted to purchase again from them, in fact, we went with the intention of purchasing, but they were just not giving enough incentive points (I think only 150,000).  They obviously didn't need the sale.


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## winger (Feb 7, 2009)

Latravel said:


> I totally agree with you except one point:  _"Presently no developer market exists for TS at all"._
> 
> Timber Lodge is selling -people are buying those timeshares.  I have been trying to work with the finance people over there for resolution of an issue and they are just completely overwhelmed with how busy they are.  I heard that from different people there.  ....


are you sure it is not due to lack of personnel ??? like marriott laying off a bunch of people because of sluggish sales?


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## Latravel (Feb 8, 2009)

Nope, they told me they are crazy busy during the ski season because they make a lot of sales.  It really defies logic but that doesn't mean other Marriott resorts are not having a hard time.  

As a comparison, we just returned from staying at the Manhattan Club in NYC this week and we went to a presentation out of curiousity.  They are really desperate to sell there.  Prices have been lowered, they pay the first years maintenance fees (about $1800) and they give you a free week stay anywhere in the world.  We were interested then we looked up resale prices and said no very quickly. Still, they were pushy and appeared desperate.


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## winger (Feb 8, 2009)

we took a tour at timber lodge during mlk weekend. they offered us and our friends no pts incentives for purchase, only an extra II week.


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## Latravel (Feb 8, 2009)

That's exactly my point.  We were interested in buying but they didn't offer us anything meaningful, only very few points.  It was almost as if they didn't need to sell.  When I asked around, they told me they had 4 sales already that day.  I don't understand it, but i'm pleased nevertheless, since i'm an owner.


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## Lawlar (Feb 8, 2009)

*Are You Kidding Me?*

Potchat: you are either a Marriott salesperson or you drank too many drinks at their resorts.  The pricing offered by Marriott is totally ridiculous.  That is probably why their sales pitches are so full of fraudulent statements.

Consider the “special offer” for Newport.  If you bought 4 weeks at Newport (I hate to think that some people have been so foolish as to have done so) you could buy full ownership of a home in Orange County (now that the median price is at $425,000).  For the cost of eight weeks you can buy a home in Newport with an ocean view.

As to Timber Lodge – nothing was selling there when I attended on December 6-13.  The salesmen were standing around with nothing to do (and there were far fewer salesmen than what I saw the year before at the same time).  Maybe sales have picked up during ski season, but you can buy a nice cabin in the Tahoe area for about the cost to buy a few weeks at Timber Lodge.  And you can usually rent at Timber Lodge for less than the maintenance fees.

EBay doesn’t reflect true pricing?  That sounds like a bank that doesn’t want to mark its assets to market and recognize the losses.  How come Marriott isn’t buying everything offered for resale – using its ROFR – if the resale prices don’t reflect reality?

I just don’t get it.  Not in this economy.  Not with so many people losing their homes to foreclosure.  Not with jobs disappearing.  No way.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 8, 2009)

Yeah, I really don't understand the confidence in the developer, and the developer model expressed by some on this tread. 

Nor the semantics about "value" vs. "cost". The fact is, developer weeks purchased a year ago are, in some cases (if not many cases) now worth between $20,000 and $30,000 less than what people paid for them. The fact Marriott is still attempting to charge the same prices is proof of absolutely nothing except that Marriott believes it can talk people into paying those prices. As the current market demonstrates, the fact Marriott MIGHT be able to do that has little linkage to what your week is worth. Very little. 

Need proof? Let's say sales are strong at Timberlodge. Great. They wanted about $25,000 for a 2BR summer week last time I checked (and summer in Tahoe is fantastic). Yet I still saw one go for $5,000 on eBay.

Again, very little linkage. What the developer is charging is almost meaningless in this current economy.


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## GaryDouglas (Feb 8, 2009)

*True Pricing*



Lawlar said:


> EBay doesn’t reflect true pricing?


 
eBay represents one type of 'true pricing', usually someone who is willing to take whatever the market will bear in a forum that will only buy at the cheapest possible price. The seller is commonly known as "motivated", probably a nicer way of saying, "desperate". Another type of "true pricing" are the sales you see through brokers. They may get more for their unit (less desparate), but the seller will have to wait for a different type of buyer (less savvy). Last year I saw an eBay unit sell for $15K, whereas the broker sale was $23K. The last type of "true pricing" is by developer. Their price includes marketing costs, large sales commisions and a bit more to add to the developer's bottom line. These three types of "true pricing" primarily reflect the sophistication of the buyer and the motivation of the sell. Remember, these are generalizations and you can always find exceptions, but I think this gererally reflects the TimeShare market place.


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## winger (Feb 8, 2009)

i guess what you are pointing out is not all timeshare purchasers are as knowledgeable or as ts fanatics as we tuggers are, else there would be a very very small amt of folks purchasing from developers.


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## Latravel (Feb 9, 2009)

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Marriott is charging those prices because people are paying those prices.  Otherwise, they would lower the price to whatever market value is.  Not everyone is intent on getting a timeshare for the least amount of pennies.  Some may want the entire Marriott experience and are willing to pay more for it. 

Lawlar, I've read that you've mentioned a couple of times that Marriott didn't sell anything while you were there in December.  Your experience is so different from mine.  I found out they sell so many because I was talking to the Sales Manager about their lack of trying to sell me anything (though I wanted to, and i'm a tugger  ) and why their prices are so high in this bad economy.  She responded they sold 4 just that day.  How do you know your observation as fact?


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## Latravel (Feb 9, 2009)

[_Message deleted. Complaints about moderating are not permitted. If you wish to comment or ask about an edit or deletion, you should contact the moderator._ Dave M, BBS Moderator]


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## Lawlar (Feb 9, 2009)

*True Value*



GaryDouglas said:


> eBay represents one type of 'true pricing', usually someone who is willing to take whatever the market will bear in a forum that will only buy at the cheapest possible price. The seller is commonly known as "motivated", probably a nicer way of saying, "desperate". Another type of "true pricing" are the sales you see through brokers. They may get more for their unit (less desparate), but the seller will have to wait for a different type of buyer (less savvy). Last year I saw an eBay unit sell for $15K, whereas the broker sale was $23K. The last type of "true pricing" is by developer. Their price includes marketing costs, large sales commisions and a bit more to add to the developer's bottom line. These three types of "true pricing" primarily reflect the sophistication of the buyer and the motivation of the sell. Remember, these are generalizations and you can always find exceptions, but I think this gererally reflects the TimeShare market place.



Yes, there are different ways to value a timeshare.  But if you were to prepare a balance sheet would you value your timeshare at the price you paid Marriott - or the prices you see on the resale market?

A lawyer handling a case (for example: a probate) would value the timeshare at the prices shown on ebay (possibly a sale handled by a broker - if it was realistic to believe one could get that price in a reasonable amount of time).  

If your accountant was preparing a balance sheet for you - say for purposes of helping you get a loan - he would most likely use Ebay as his source of sales information.  And if you asked your bank for a loan, I am certain that when it determines the value of your assets, it won't consider your timeshare to be worth the prices charged by Marriott.

But I guess the better question, for this site, might be why would anyone -who was informed- buy from Marriott when you can buy the same thing on Ebay for far less.


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## Lawlar (Feb 9, 2009)

*Observations and Discussions*



Latravel said:


> Lawlar, I've read that you've mentioned a couple of times that Marriott didn't sell anything while you were there in December.  Your experience is so different from mine.  I found out they sell so many because I was talking to the Sales Manager about their lack of trying to sell me anything (though I wanted to, and i'm a tugger  ) and why their prices are so high in this bad economy.  She responded they sold 4 just that day.  How do you know your observation as fact?



My observations might be wrong or they might pertain only to the weeks when I was there. This is what I saw/observed:

I talked to two salesmen who were standing outside the Marriott trying to flag down prospects.  I said times must be hard right now and they agreed.  One told me that his "partner" had just gotten a job as a security guard to make ends meet.  

The women sales agents I saw at Timber Lodge the year before were not there anymore.  

I was sitting in the lobbey reading when I heard one of the employees say that an agent had just gotten someone to agree to a presentation - like it was a big deal to find a prospect.

I talked to a number of guests at the resort and they all told me they were observing the same things I was.  Several of them told me that they would only buy resale (the year before I had met several guests who had purchased units during that stay).

Not a scientific study.  But it left an impression with me.  Also, if you check the newspapers in Tahoe and the surrounding areas, there are lots of stories about real estate foreclosures and dropping real estate values.  There is also that big cement hole across the street from Timber Lodge (The Cheateau) that serves as a big reminder that prices are falling everywhere. And then there are the statements in Marriott's earnings reports that sales have fallen [Would Timber Lodge be an exception? I don't see why.]


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## potchak (Feb 9, 2009)

Lawlar said:


> Potchat: you are either a Marriott salesperson or you drank too many drinks at their resorts.  The pricing offered by Marriott is totally ridiculous.  That is probably why their sales pitches are so full of fraudulent statements.



I think this statement is awfully offensive. I am not a marriott salesperson, but when I received the email from Marriott, I thought it would be nice to post it since here at tug we try to let everyone know of the latest "deals". 

I know that this is not a good deal when considering resale, but I thought it would be nice to show everyone the status of Marriott's direct sales in this economy. 

And just because you do not want to buy directly from Marriott, doesn't mean there is someone out there that won't be interested in these deals.


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## Latravel (Feb 9, 2009)

_"And just because you do not want to buy directly from Marriott, doesn't mean there is someone out there that won't be interested in these deals."_

This is true.  We see posts all the time with people asking for current pricing.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 9, 2009)

Latravel said:


> It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Marriott is charging those prices because people are paying those prices.  Otherwise, they would lower the price to whatever market value is.



I think what you miss here is that developer timeshare sales involve a very sophisticated, high-pressure approach that requires a high number of prospects to yield a small number of sales. It's not anything close to a rational market, but instead is one propped up by high-value "pitch"incentives, and which often leaves buyers with a significant degree of remorse over their purchase. They don't lower their prices because they have this entire machine built.

That approach can't be duplicated by an individual.

The prices bear almost no relationship with what your timeshare is worth, especially compared to eBay, which is a much more accurate valuation device.

That said, I appreciate seeing the developer prices, if only to feel bad for the folk paying them.


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## karland (Feb 9, 2009)

We are looking at buying into Marriott, probably Aruba. The deal finder in me says "go to ebay" but I am concerned about the things I lose by buying resale. I read the post about the disadvantages of buying resale and am I correct that the only thing I would be losing out on is the ability to trade my week for rewards points? If that's true is that a big deal? To me, it doesn't seem to be a big deal, I'd rather save $20K then have some points. But if we need these points, tell me!


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## KathyPet (Feb 9, 2009)

You don't "need" those points.  The ability to trade for points is a incentive that you get if you buy from Marriott.    They are only good to you IF either now or in the future you think that you may wish to travel to locations not served by the time share market.  For example if you think you would like to take a nice vacation in Rome, Paris or London.  The pickings there for time shares are virtually non existent so the Marriott points will allow you to use the complement of Marriott or Renissance hotels in those cities.  We have had some very nice vacations using Marriott points.  However, as someone who purchased 3 time share weeks from Marriott I would exercise extreme caution when considering a direct purchase.    You will get extra added incentive points when you first purchase but once you use those points up and are down to trading your week in for points every other year or, at some resorts, every year to replenish your supply you will find that your points do not go very far.   Since I purchased my first time share Marriott has revamped the point program twice and each time the value of my points vs what I can get for them has decreased substantially.  You can see the # of points required for various marriott stays by reviewing the requirements on the Marriott Rewards web site.  What kind of reward package will your trade in give you?  Is it worth it to you to not use your time share for two years to save up for a decent rewards package for that dream trip?  All I can say is that I would never purchase direct from Marriott again.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 9, 2009)

That's the only thing you lose, the chance to give your week (and a fee) to Marriott for points that, in many cases, won't even get you a full week in a hotel room. And given the significant devaluation of points, even people who used to aggressively defend the value of points here on TUG have come to view trading your week for points as a weak value.

In return for giving up the option to trade for points, you gain tens of thousands of dollars, and the money you save annually when you don't trade your week for points.


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## kjd (Feb 9, 2009)

*Developer purchase or resale?*

There is nothing wrong with either approach to purchasing a timeshare, points or no points.  I have done both.  We have enjoyed our overseas vacations and plan another one on points in 2010.  Taking a vacation on points is not free.  It almost always involves cost except that the cost is far less for overseas travel by using points.

Frankly, in these tough economic times I cannot advise anyone to make a developer purchase.  The bottom has fallen out of the TS resale market.  However, the point system has served us well in the past and will continue to do so.  It's really a simple idea that if you have no desire to travel overseas then resale is probably the best option no matter what one's economic circumstances are at the time of purchase.

Value is often an elusive concept.  It's in the eyes of the beholder rather  than any mathematical calculation one can make.  When comparing a timeshare's value, is it any different than purchasing an automobile that depreciates down to nothing?  The "value" is in the usage by it's owner.  That is why discussions about TS value usually go nowhere.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 9, 2009)

kjd said:


> When comparing a timeshare's value, is it any different than purchasing an automobile that depreciates down to nothing?  The "value" is in the usage by it's owner.  That is why discussions about TS value usually go nowhere.



I think this is a very fair comparison in some ways, and an imperfect comparison in others.

A $40,000 car loses a ton of its resale value the day you drive it out of the showroom, but you can drive it every single day for years. A $40,000 timeshare loses the same amount of resale value (or more) and you can use it 7 days a year.


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## Cathyb (Feb 9, 2009)

Barry:  I like your response -- it has alot of merit.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 9, 2009)

Some relevant reporting from a story linked elsewhere on TUG titled "Time Bomb":



> The average time-share costs $19,500 but is immediately worth half that in the resale market. Online secondary market site Sell My Timeshare Now reports the average offers last year ran between $4,000 and $5,000. So hard-pressed owners either suck it up and make payments, knowing at least they'll get a vacation week out of it, or jettison shares for huge losses to escape their contracts.
> 
> Nusbaum says the secondary market is all over the place in terms of professionalism and likens it to "where used autos were in the 1960s." A spokesman for Sell My Timeshare Now counters that secondary sales are surprisingly robust, even if owners take a beating. That may help keep defaults down, but it doesn't bode well for new sales. New inventory remains high, one analyst says. But even an unrelenting sales pitch may not be enough to convince a beleaguered consumer that it's worth forking over $20,000 for a week's vacation.



http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=666285


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## kjd (Feb 9, 2009)

Comparisons aside, you will get 7 vacation days per year but you will get it in perpetuity for you and your family.  (Provided they pay the annual assessment)  Is there any value in that?

On another matter, just a thought:

A interesting question arises in this whole debate we're having.  Are we cutting our own throats by advocating to everyone to purchase resale?  We're probably not if only a few listen to our advice.  

Wouldn't we want as much new construction as possible in order to increase the supply of new destinations for us to trade for?  I understand the arguement about a high percentage of people don't know about resale yet but I have to think that a lot more of them will as time goes by.  It seems to me that our interests would be better served if more people bought from the developer thereby causing more new construction; which in-turn inceases our choices for trading into new locations.


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## karland (Feb 9, 2009)

So we know we want platinum, since that is when we travel the most from what I see on some of the calendars I looked at. I always hear/read "buy where you want to vacation", and while we will take that into consideration, it isn't super important, we aren't that picky! But whether we do resale or developer, why would you go for say platinum Aruba when you could go platinum Orlando for so much less? 

And one reason I think a lot of people don't buy resale and go thru the developer is not only the added incentives, but the financing. People might not have an extra $40k sitting around or even $20k on the resale market, but the developer will finance it and they can afford a couple hundred a month.


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## m61376 (Feb 9, 2009)

karland said:


> So we know we want platinum, since that is when we travel the most from what I see on some of the calendars I looked at. I always hear/read "buy where you want to vacation", and while we will take that into consideration, it isn't super important, we aren't that picky! But whether we do resale or developer, why would you go for say platinum Aruba when you could go platinum Orlando for so much less?
> Because it will not be easy to trade your Orlando week for a Platinum Aruba week, esp. if you want the 2BR unit. If you buy where you want to go most years, you can book the week you want a year in advance and make your travel plans, get the best airfare, etc., rather than waiting and hoping for a trade which may or may not come and may or may not be the best week for you to travel.
> And one reason I think a lot of people don't buy resale and go thru the developer is not only the added incentives, but the financing. People might not have an extra $40k sitting around or even $20k on the resale market, but the developer will finance it and they can afford a couple hundred a month.



Financing through the developer at their generous rate of 13.99% is NEVER a good idea. Esp. today, financing a timeshare is not a good idea anyway, but if you are going to finance it, there are much cheaper interest rates around (a tax-deductible home equity line, a short term zero interest rate credit card, etc.). I certainly won't preach as to how you should spend your money, but if your only financing option is through Marriott at their very high rates, then you should perhaps wait awhile before making a purchase.


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## winger (Feb 9, 2009)

karland said:


> ...
> And one reason I think a lot of people don't buy resale and go thru the developer is not only the added incentives, but the financing. People might not have an extra $40k sitting around or even $20k on the resale market, but the developer will finance it and they can afford a couple hundred a month.


 For financing, wouldn't most ppl be better off to use home equity loans/lines or private loans?  Or if resales are going for 4000-10000, then, it is even easier to find that kind of money sitting around.

yes, the incentives are a good part of the decision making process.  For us, we went still went developer AFTER being 'raked' (a.k.a 'overpaid') by the developer over a decade ago (non-Marriott) - because we saw the value in ability to turn annual usage into MRPs if we want/need.  we also figure with the upfront incentive pts, we can learn enough from TUG to 'make up' the difference in developer cost versus resale cost when we do use those incentive points (and also from the MRPs we get by converting our annual TS usage) in the most efficient way possible. So far, I think we are doing OK and still do not regret the developer purchase.

However with the current devaluation in MRP, we would *NOT *out of good conscience recommend developer purchases to anyone (well, maybe to my enemies!).  This will change however IF Marriott shows good faith to its current owners who purchased through them by somehow coming up with an equitable solution to where TS owners who do turn in annual TS usage for MRP's retain good value in their MRP usage.  The latest MRP devaluations is outrageously lop-sided IMO


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## karland (Feb 9, 2009)

m61376 said:


> Financing through the developer at their generous rate of 13.99% is NEVER a good idea. Esp. today, financing a timeshare is not a good idea anyway, but if you are going to finance it, there are much cheaper interest rates around (a tax-deductible home equity line, a short term zero interest rate credit card, etc.). I certainly won't preach as to how you should spend your money, but if your only financing option is through Marriott at their very high rates, then you should perhaps wait awhile before making a purchase.




Oh we wouldn't finance thru Marriott! I just remember when we sat thru a Starwood one with my parents they went on and on and on about how we could do it thru them at 17% interest. We rolled our eyes and said no. My parents however did it just to sign the paperwork and get it done and then as soon as they got home the next week they paid it off after transferring some money around from different accounts.


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## FlyerBobcat (Feb 9, 2009)

karland said:


> Oh we wouldn't finance thru Marriott! I just remember when we sat thru a Starwood one with my parents they went on and on and on about how we could do it thru them at 17% interest. We rolled our eyes and said no. My parents however did it just to sign the paperwork and get it done and then as soon as they got home the next week they paid it off after transferring some money around from different accounts.



I don't get it.....  Why pay the developer an extra $10k or $15k (depending on the property/season) if you don't need their financing???

_*Maybe if the bonus points incentive is something like 500k points or so.... *_ (need to consider the value of those bonus points.)

But exchanging your week that costs you a year's MF (usually quite high these days), plus the extra ~$125 fee it might cost to exchange to points.......   I just don't see how this can be automatically considered an incentive to purchase from the developer.


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## winger (Feb 9, 2009)

flyerbobcat said:


> I don't get it.....  Why pay the developer an extra $10k or $15k (depending on the property/season) if you don't need their financing???
> 
> _*Maybe if the bonus points incentive is something like 500k points or so.... *_ (need to consider the value of those bonus points.)
> 
> But exchanging your week that costs you a year's MF (usually quite high these days), plus the extra ~$125 fee it might cost to exchange to points.......   I just don't see how this can be automatically considered an incentive to purchase from the developer.


As I mentioned in my post above, there is 'value' (aka $$$) in being able to exchange TS use for MRPs.  Also less potential 'hassle' when buying from private party - this also has some value (aka $$$). Each situation is different and each person's purchase criteria is different.  In our case, from how we calculate, we would at least break even when taking into consideration the value of the upfront MRP's when used for trips.


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## FlyerBobcat (Feb 9, 2009)

winger said:


> *However with the current devaluation in MRP, we would NOT out of good conscience recommend developer purchases to anyone (well, maybe to my enemies!). * This will change however IF Marriott shows good faith to its current owners who purchased through them by somehow coming up with an equitable solution to where TS owners who do turn in annual TS usage for MRP's retain good value in their MRP usage.  The latest MRP devaluations is outrageously lop-sided IMO





winger said:


> As I mentioned in my post above, there is 'value' (aka $$$) in being able to exchange TS use for MRPs.  Also less potential 'hassle' when buying from private party - this also has some value (aka $$$). Each situation is different and each person's purchase criteria is different.  *In our case, from how we calculate, we would at least break even when taking into consideration the value of the upfront MRP's when used for trips*.



I do understand that people value certain things in their own way... and that all developer sales are not created equally.  

I just would like to see a few unbiased examples where there is more "value" buying from the developer.  (Not in order to shoot holes in it, but to help me see the other side.)

I've read lots of posting where anti-developer TUG'ers stated that the ability to exchange for points is the ONLY difference when buying from the developer.   From the information I have gathered, I think that incentive/bonus points at purchase time is the main advantage.  I don't consider a yearly or (EOY) exchange for points that great of an advantage (of course, depending on amount of MFs, fees, and points/year).

Sometime I almost thing that the sales people make some buyers believe they can use their weeks AND exchange for point every other year.....


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## Latravel (Feb 9, 2009)

_"I don't get it..... Why pay the developer an extra $10k or $15k (depending on the property/season) if you don't need their financing???"_

Because the value of the incentive points you receive equate to a vacation that is worth the price difference of $10-15K.  At the minimum, you brake even, as Winger stated.  The additional benefit is that you may take vacations where there are no timeshares in the future, while resale buyers can only use their timeshares to go to other timeshares.  It's one of the main reasons people buy timeshares from a large hotel chain - they want to be able to tap into hotel space.

If resale buyers do go on vacations outside of the timeshare network, it is very easy to spend over $10-15K on vacations in a few years depending on vacation habits.  I see it as one group (developer buyers) pays the difference up front while one group (resale buyers) spends the difference a little at a time.  Since my husband and I love to travel around the world, it was a no brainer for us and we are both analytical people (engineers).  On the otherhand, if you only want to go to timeshares, you should only buy resale since points would have little value to you.

Also, we pay the cost of the timeshare with the Marriott Visa to get a big chunk of points (I think 10x or more per dollar), then pay off the card immediately when the bill comes in.  We collect/value points and even after our 2 week Italy trip in June completely on points, we still have a substantial amount of points (over 1mil).  This is the main reason we love our Marriott timeshares.  For us, it's not just a week in Tahoe or a week in Palm Springs - it's a world of travel opportunities.  Though I sound like a Marriott commercial, this has been and is our experience.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 9, 2009)

Latravel said:


> Because the value of the incentive points you receive equate to a vacation that is worth $10-15K.



The $10-15k valuation on incentive points was always a stretch IMO (and I'm someone well on my way to lifetime Marriott platinum through business travel, nobody knows the MRP much better than I do).

Now? With the points devalued and the gap between resale value and developer prices as much as $35k for a Hawaii week? Or $20-25K for an Orlando week? The argument just doesn't exist any more. The points are devalued. The resale advantage is too large.


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## Latravel (Feb 9, 2009)

_"...the gap between resale value and developer prices as much as $35k for a Hawaii week? Or $20-25K for an Orlando week? The argument just doesn't exist any more."_

I completely agree.  Now the price difference is so high, the current incentives in place from Marriott just doesn't justify the purchase.  It even makes me think of buying resale, something i've been afraid to do since Marriott may and can change the system.  Marriott would have to implement significant improvements in their incentive programs to get people to justify a developer purchase.  At the time I purchased, the price difference was much smaller.

_"The $10-15k valuation on incentive points was always a stretch IMO (and I'm someone well on my way to lifetime Marriott platinum through business travel, nobody knows the MRP much better than I do)."_

This is not a stretch.  Using my upcoming Italy trip i'm taking in June entirely with points I received from my Shadow Ridge purchase: 

1. 4 coach tickets from LAX to Rome:  $1500 ea x 4
2. 10 nights in the Grand Flora Rome:  $500 (on trip advisor) per night x 10 
3. 5 nights in the JW Marriott Capri: $850 (on Marriott site) per night x 5

Total cost: $15,250.  If we don't take the children, we'll be using the points for 2 first/business class tickets which would bring up the cost closer to $18,000.  This is a real trip that is booked and "paid for", not just a remote possibility stated by a salesman in a presentation.  

Is there a different way to put a value on this trip other than actual cost?


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## winger (Feb 9, 2009)

Latravel said:


> _...  For us, it's not just a week in Tahoe or a week in Palm Springs - it's a world of travel opportunities.  Though I sound like a Marriott commercial, this has been and is our experience._


_
heidi, we should hook up sometime...i think we would get along just fine ; )_


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## winger (Feb 9, 2009)

Latravel said:


> _..
> 
> Is there a different way to put a value on this trip other than actual cost?_


_
yes there is...and it's something us engineering types are not supposed to truely grasp, there's a name for it which i cannot think of at the moment but it goes something along the lines like this... if you never purchased mvci, would you even have  contemplated such a trip as your upcoming italian trip (staying in those nice hotels)? on our end, we would have nevered thought about splurging 8 nights in paris at the champs elysees!  if it were not for o
my son's allergies, we would have done 14 nights with all 4 of us (instead of the abbreviated trip with just us two)._


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## ondeadlin (Feb 9, 2009)

Latravel said:


> _
> 1. 4 coach tickets from LAX to Rome:  $1500 ea x 4
> 2. 10 nights in the Grand Flora Rome:  $500 (on trip advisor) per night x 10
> 3. 5 nights in the JW Marriott Capri: $850 (on Marriott site) per night x 5
> ...


_

Well, I'd point out I was just able to find 10 nights at the Grand Flora for $350 a night, and at the Capri for just over $500. And I know I could do a lot better than $1,500 each on the airline tickets with a little advance planning. Now, of course you'll say your dates are hard to get, etc., and that might be true.

But that's the problem with these comparisons. Typically folks trying to push the "amazing" value of points tend to put prices on hotel rooms and airline tickets that are fairly easy to beat with a little advance planning.

There's also the issue that comparisons rarely factor in the cost of financing with Marriott (often a requisite for incentive points for Marriott), or for trading the first one or two years of use for points that get counted in the "incentive" (even though MFs and conversion fees have to be paid)._


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## FlyerBobcat (Feb 9, 2009)

Heidi,
Very enlightening indeed...  A few questions / counter-points:


I'm guesssing that you are in the top 1% or so in utilizing your MRPs.  Good for you... but I bet other dev buyers don't see that much reward.  Your thoughts?



> Because the value of the incentive points you receive equate to a vacation that is worth the price difference of $10-15K.  At the minimum, you brake even, as Winger stated.....



While this "might" be the case for you, I don't believe this for a second for the VAST majority of dev buyers..



> We collect/value points and even after our 2 week Italy trip in June completely on points, we still have a substantial amount of points (over 1mil).



You must be referring to a lot of developer purchasers if you're talking that many incentive points --- and/or mixing in points obtained in many other ways.  My $10k-$15 figure was my guess for the savings in one purchase.

Thanks again for the great explanation....


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## FlyerBobcat (Feb 9, 2009)

Ouch.... never heard about that one. 



ondeadlin said:


> ..... or for *trading the first one or two years of use for points that get counted in the "incentive"* (even though MFs and conversion fees have to be paid).


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## Lawlar (Feb 9, 2009)

*Just Being Cranky*

I respect the right of those of you who want to buy direct from Marriott to enjoy the “lifetime of vacation privileges” and pay full price to do it.  A lot of people have the money to spend to enjoy that lifestyle and the difference for them between retail and resale is irrelevant.  If you got it, why not enjoy it?  Absolutely nothing wrong with that.  [Heidi/Winger:We would probably all have a good time together if we ever held a TUG convention.  I would be on my best behavior - my wife would see to that.]

And I confess, I really enjoyed my recent stay at MOC – and my grandkid would die of disappointment if I sold my unit.  So I guess I must have been drinking too many drinks at Marriott’s resort when we decided to buy (and I don’t drink!).  [Potchat – how bout if I say “or you were sitting in the sun too long at the Marriott resort” and delete the part about the drinking?  I find it hard not to react in a cranky manner when you not only list Marriott’s prices, like they were great bargains, but you offered to help hook people up with a sales rep – Maybe I need an anger management session.] 

Frankly, when we bought our unit we were giddy with the feeling that we were getting rich from the real estate and stock market climb (thank God I sold my L.A. condo in 2005 and my wife sold some stock to pay for the TS purchase).  Remember those good old days?  So we paid a ridiculous price for something we enjoy and it didn’t affect our lifestyle (financial health).

Still, I have a sour taste in my mouth when I see a posting of Marriott’s high pricing, especially when I think of Marriott’s high pressure, misleading, sales tactics that cause a lot of unsophisticated people to buy something that they can’t afford and they don’t understand.  I get really irritated when I think about the false statements I have heard their sales agents make.  Then I think of the high interest rates Marriott charges for the purchase of a TS – and how Marriott’s customers believed they were going to earn tens of thousands of points for paying those high interest rates, until Marriott decided to take away those incentives (how many sales agents told their purchasers that the yearly reward points could be taken away at any time?).  I could go on and on (but I will save that for the fun of future posts). 

I like the idea of a lifetime of vacation privileges - but they really need to correct some defects in the system.


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## Latravel (Feb 9, 2009)

Where did you find those prices?  Maybe there are some other discounts sites I don't know about.  Until recently, I was going to pay for the extra nights in Capri I needed (I only found 3 nts with points) out of pocket and the cost was 650eu.  I fortunately found the extra nights on points.

But, no worries, using your numbers:

1.  4 coach tickets lax to rome: 1500x4
2. 10 nts Rome Grand Flora: $350 x 10
3. 5 nts JW Capri: $500 x 5

Grand total: $12,000.  I have to disagree with your assessment that I could find cheaper airfare.  My parents are going to Paris the same month and their tickets were $1620 per person.  We are going Air France (like them) and stopping in Paris before continuing on to Rome.  I think my estimate was low.


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## Latravel (Feb 9, 2009)

Tom:

_"I'm guesssing that you are in the top 1% or so in utilizing your MRPs. Good for you... but I bet other dev buyers don't see that much reward. Your thoughts?"_

I don't understand this question.  I think if you are interested in the system and learn as much as you can, you'll be able to more efficiently utilize the system for greater rewards.  We've only been owners for 14 months but we play the system. There are others on this board that are very proficient and I try to learn as much as I can from them to maximize the use of my unit.

_"Because the value of the incentive points you receive equate to a vacation that is worth the price difference of $10-15K. At the minimum, you brake even, as Winger stated....." "While this "might" be the case for you, I don't believe this for a second for the VAST majority of dev buyers.."_

Why not and what information is this based on? If you purchased your timeshare over a year ago or pre-construction, this situation applies.  

_"You must be referring to a lot of developer purchasers if you're talking that many incentive points --- and/or mixing in points obtained in many other ways. My $10k-$15 figure was my guess for the savings in one purchase."_

Nope.  Actually, until recently, you could purchase a European sampler for 7 nights at ANY 3 European hotels (even cat 8) for only 150,000 points, which is very cheap considering how expensive they are to pay for cash.  I bought 2 to cover my 2 weeks.  I still had enough points left over from my Shadow Ridge purchase to cover my airfare.  


As much as people try to poke holes in logic or find deficiencies in points travel, there really isn't any. The only problem is trying to justify the current price difference, which is not possible.  I enjoy the discussion though!


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## GaryDouglas (Feb 9, 2009)

Lawlar said:


> Yes, there are different ways to value a timeshare. But if you were to prepare a balance sheet would you value your timeshare at the price you paid Marriott - or the prices you see on the resale market?
> 
> A lawyer handling a case (for example: a probate) would value the timeshare at the prices shown on ebay (possibly a sale handled by a broker - if it was realistic to believe one could get that price in a reasonable amount of time).
> 
> If your accountant was preparing a balance sheet for you - say for purposes of helping you get a loan - he would most likely use Ebay as his source of sales information. And if you asked your bank for a loan, I am certain that when it determines the value of your assets, it won't consider your timeshare to be worth the prices charged by Marriott.


 
For the purposes of determining the resale value, it would be something between eBay and Broker. Anyone only using eBay prices is only looking at the lowest of the low and does not reflect broker sales. It is easy to determine what properties have sold for on eBay. Just query their system on a regular basis. Try and do that with brokered sales. It's very hard to do. It takes a lot of time and experience, and mostly knowing the right people (brokers) to get that sort of data. So if an accountant or lawyer uses only eBay to determine the value of a TS, they are taking the easy way out and it does not necessarily relect it's actual value. If they were to ever come up with an MLS for TimeShares, then we would have some real data to work with. Until then, it's a guessing game.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 9, 2009)

Well, the story I noted above quoted a reputable broker as saying resales are averaging $4k to $5k. Higher than eBay, but still a huge gap with developer prices.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=666286&postcount=41


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## winger (Feb 9, 2009)

Lawlar said:


> .  [Heidi/Winger:We would probably all have a good time together if we ever held a TUG convention.  I would be on my best behavior - my wife would see to that.]
> ....


i am sure we would have a blast...tuggers are like family ! we all share one common thing which has a very strong bond, that is joy of vacation/travels...regardless how we pay for it.  we being mvci owners makes the bond that much stronger!


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## m61376 (Feb 9, 2009)

ondeadlin said:


> Well, I'd point out I was just able to find 10 nights at the Grand Flora for $350 a night, and at the Capri for just over $500. And I know I could do a lot better than $1,500 each on the airline tickets with a little advance planning. Now, of course you'll say your dates are hard to get, etc., and that might be true.
> 
> But that's the problem with these comparisons. Typically folks trying to push the "amazing" value of points tend to put prices on hotel rooms and airline tickets that are fairly easy to beat with a little advance planning.
> 
> There's also the issue that comparisons rarely factor in the cost of financing with Marriott (often a requisite for incentive points for Marriott), or for trading the first one or two years of use for points that get counted in the "incentive" (even though MFs and conversion fees have to be paid).


Well said! I think the real value of the incentive points is what you would normally pay for a similar trip- that is, the airfare you would normally book and even the hotel accommodations you would normally choose. I've gone to Europe several times and stayed in really nice places, on occasion getting superior hotels at a great discount and other times staying at very nice but perhaps not the Grand Flora, etc. but for a heck of a lot less money. They've always been terrific places and centrally located though. So, for me, the "value" of that travel package might be a lot less than the 10-15K others may value it at.

And- your point about those upfront incentive points frequently including a year or two of MF's is a point worth reiterating. It is all too easy to forget about the extra 1-2K cost right there.


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## m61376 (Feb 9, 2009)

ondeadlin said:


> Well, the story I noted above quoted a reputable broker as saying resales are averaging $4k to $5k. Higher than eBay, but still a huge gap with developer prices.
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=666286&postcount=41



But of course that article refers to prices across all timeshares, not just Marriotts or the other upper end units.


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## Latravel (Feb 10, 2009)

_"I think the real value of the incentive points is what you would normally pay for a similar trip"_

I don't see why the type of trip you normally would take matters as far as estimating the worth of incentive points.  The equation is the same. 

If I take "cheaper" trips (trips costing less points), my incentive points go a lot further.  If I flew coach and stayed in cat 3 or 4 hotels, I would have enough points for 2 trips, each costing about $5000 for a total value of $10,000.  If I fly first class and stay at cat 8 hotels, my incentive points cover only 1 trip costing $10,000.  It's the same mathematical conclusion.  

How you allocate the use of your incentive points doesn't effect or detract from their value.  If you want to go on more budget trips, you can take more of them vs. 1 amazing trip.  I personally chose the higher end hotels since it's such a treat.


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## m61376 (Feb 10, 2009)

Heidi- What you say is only partially true. Granted, the airfare $$'s are huge, but I would venture to guess that many of us have stayed in equivalent or at least similar hotels for far less than the rack rates. For example, I managed to nab a stay at the Hotel de Artes, which is a Ritz Carlton in Barcelona, for a ridiculously low rate at the time. So my point is is that you can travel to Europe often for far less than staying strictly at a Marriott at similar quality accommodations and, if you would normally fly coach, as nice as business class is, then that should be the $ value of the trip.

In reality, in most European cities there is not a category 3 or 4 hotel centrally located so I don't think you can simply say that you'd get two half priced trips for the same number of points so the value would be the same.

Business class travel is unarguably wonderful, but if I wouldn't normally shell out the dollars for those tickets I don't think I should consider that in the cost. If I choose to fly business class, I can get a companion ticket for free (as can anyone with a Plat. Amex) so that also decreases the points value for me. 

I am glad buying directly has worked out so well for you. I am just pointing out that others may value things differently and the 10, 15 or 20K up front savings may not be worth it. As for me, I'd rather keep the extra money in my savings (remember, every 10K has a lost opportunity cost of let's say $500 per year) and maintain the use of my timeshare. Just remember, aside from the 150,000 or 200,000 up front incentive points gotten without trading in the unit, those 100,000 trade in points come at a cost. For example, if you paid an extra 10K and trade in your unit every other year: at today's package prices, it would take ~3 trades to accumulate the 300K or so points needed. That means 3 trade in fees of $104 ($312), 3 annual MF's paid for a unit that you can't use (let's say $1000 per week making it $3000) and 5 or 6 years of lost opportunity costs (interest you would have earned on the extra 10K sitting in the bank; and, yes, I think it is fair to add all the cost here, since you paid the extra money up front with the only benefit being derived is the ability to trade for points) adding up to another $2500 or $3000 (depending upon whether you traded in years 1,3 and 5 or years 2, 4 and 6). So, we are talking about ~$5800 cost at a minimum that your "free" vacation just ran. 

Plus, aside from ever increasing MF's and static trade-in point values, you have to consider that you also shelled out $$'s for a week that you aren't getting use of. There is a value to usage-that's why, after all, we are willing to shell out the big bucks in the first place. The typical sales pitch included a break even point, so to speak- several years down the road where to cost of renting would have paid for your up front cost. You lose that use value when you trade in for points, so that has to be considered a cost as well. One could value it at Marriott's rental rate (which would be equivalent to valuing the free trips at the hotel rack rate), but I wouldn't the same way I wouldn't for the same reason I feel you need to value the trip at what you would normally pay for a similar trip. Many weeks rent at $2000-2500, with some even demanding more of a premium. For arguments sake I will value a week's of usage worth at $2000. So, giving up 3 weeks costs another $6000.

Adding it all up, that "free" vacation week is coming at a real cost of about $12000. Certainly another way of looking at things....


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## Latravel (Feb 10, 2009)

That's a very interesting way of looking at the situation - I'm going to be thinking about that point of view more.  

I just look at it in much more simple terms.  With the hundreds of thousands of points I received (not just 150-200,000), I get great trips and I broke even, so i'm happy.  

When I trade my unit, I add points I get from my Marriott Visa so it doesn't take 3 years for me to accumulate 300,000 points for a vacation.  I've been an owner for 14 months and I still have over 1 mil points left over even after "paying" for my 2 week Italy trip.  That's equivalent to 2 more amazing trips.  Yes, the points program works out well for us and it very easily made up for the price difference, but i'm not concerned about the exact dollars and cents.  I don't count every dollar - I just look at the experience.

Also, our vacation habits are such that we pay more for the ocean view rooms and the higher category hotels so points work well for us.  I've lived in Paris every summer of my life so I know a 3 star hotel in Paris is considered very nice, more than in the states.  4 or 5 star hotels are outside the reach of most people.  Getting those hotels with points is a hugh benefit to me that I will gladly take but I understand it may not be important to others.


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## Steve (Feb 10, 2009)

Reading this thread has made me realize, even more than in the past, that we have a very wide range of people participating on TUG.  Many different economic levels and perspectives are represented.  This is a major reason why it's hard for people to relate to each other on some of these topics.  

If you've lived in Paris every summer or your life, you're likely in an income bracket where saving $20,000 buying a timeshare week resale instead of from Marriott isn't a big deal.  On the other hand, if you're making $60,000 a year...or even $100,000...saving that kind of money makes a huge difference.  

The problem for Marriott...and other developers...is that the pool of Americans who can afford the luxury of paying thousands of dollars extra to buy from the developer is shrinking rapidly in this recession.

Steve


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## Lawlar (Feb 10, 2009)

*Does Work For Many Of Us*



Latravel said:


> I just look at it in much more simple terms.  With the hundreds of thousands of points I received (not just 150-200,000), I get great trips and I broke even, so i'm happy.
> 
> When I trade my unit, I add points I get from my Marriott Visa so it doesn't take 3 years for me to accumulate 300,000 points for a vacation.  I've been an owner for 14 months and I still have over 1 mil points left over even after "paying" for my 2 week Italy trip.



Heidi:  This is where I think your reasoning doesn't work for people who are simply considering whether to buy a TS from Marriott or from a reseller.  If we just look at the points we get from Marriott, if we turn in our week at our TS for points, the math doesn't work.

For example, take my timeshare (PLEASE! - just kidding).  I paid $58,000 for it and $1,800 a year mf.  If I turn it in for points I get 150,000 points.  When I bought my TS, a mere 1 1/2 years ago, I could get one room for one week in Marriott's best hotel.  That room would be about 1/3rd the size of my TS and it wouldn't be ocean front.  Now that the points system has been depreciated, I can't get one week at a top rated hotel.

Yes, I can tell you that I can add my existing 750,000 depreciated points (that I've had for years) to the 150,000 points for my TS week and that I can then get a great vacation.  But that is adding God knows how many stays at Marriott hotels and credit card purchases to get those points - in addition to my $58,000 puchase and $1,800 a year mf.

It just doesn't add up.

By the way Heidi, if you still plan to spend every summer in Paris: WILL YOU MARRY ME!!!!  (just kidding - my wife would kill me)


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## m61376 (Feb 10, 2009)

Latravel said:


> That's a very interesting way of looking at the situation - I'm going to be thinking about that point of view more.
> 
> I just look at it in much more simple terms.  With the hundreds of thousands of points I received (not just 150-200,000), I get great trips and I broke even, so i'm happy.
> 
> ...



Heidi-
What was your point incentive per purchased week (strictly incentive points), separating out points that you received for trading in week(s)? I know I was only offered in the 150-200,000 point area when looking to purchase in Aruba 2 years ago (of course, they "sweetened" the deal by offering to let me trade in the week for another 110,000 points and then letting me finance through them for even more points. 

I do agree that in the early 2000's when Brian and Dave and several others purchased pre-construction and received close to half a million points per unit that the initial incentive points could have made up much of the differential, although I still am skeptical that there is much benefit today about trading in weeks for points.

I found your comment about finding 3 star hotels in Paris very nice, even nicer than here. Just curious- have others found this? My impression was that European hotels by and large are not as nice as their American counterparts. I didn't think the Paris Hilton compared to the NY Hilton, for example, and other than the location was a bit disappointed. 

And- you are right- the experience is the bottom line. I guess part of it is that while I like the nicer accommodations I'd rather find them at good prices and the shopper in me has managed to do so. The reason why I think the "value" is what you would otherwise pay is because there are those who are ok with more basic accommodations (like those who would shudder at the thought of shelling out $$'s to buy a premium timeshare and have great family vacations at less expensive properties), another group  (like me) who is willing to spend time planning a trip and finding great deals on top notch accommodations (there are great discounts off rack rates many times) and others (and my guess that includes you) who would rather not waste their time and find value in booking a trip with points and not having to worry about cost or finding a great deal. So, that free trip would be valued differently by all three groups.


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## Latravel (Feb 10, 2009)

Yes, living in Paris during the summer is a great perk when your mother is a university professor a La Sorbonne during the summer.  

Lawler, even I passed on buying a Maui Ocean Club timeshare from Marriott!  Those prices are really high.  If you bought a Marriott timeshare for a really good and relatively low price and you got a lot of incentive points, you might have a different view.

_"Many different economic levels and perspectives are represented. This is a major reason why it's hard for people to relate to each other on some of these topics."_

There are many options open to everyone and there is not just one correct way to go.  I think the problem occurs when people stress only one option as the "best" or most intelligent option.


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## Latravel (Feb 10, 2009)

_"I found your comment about finding 3 star hotels in Paris very nice, even nicer than here."_

Sorry, I may have been unclear.  In European countries, accommodations are not like in America.  Yes, a 3 star in the States is typically much nicer than a 3 star in Europe.  Even 4 or 5 star rooms in Europe may be not as nice as in America - probably smaller, older furnishings.  There is a difference in the typical American and European standard but it's part of the charm of being in Europe. 

_I know I was only offered in the 150-200,000 point area when looking to purchase in Aruba 2 years ago. _

I believe the amount of incentive points changes according to sales levels and locations.  When I purchased Timber Lodge last year, they offered a lot more points then when I went to a presentation last month.  Obviously, sales were good.  When I went to Shadow Ridge last July, they made an offer we could not refuse.


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