# Exclusive Resorts Party 9-20-07 -> UN-Invited!



## Steamboat Bill

I just got invited to an Exclusive Resorts event in Fort Lauderdale.

September 20, 2007
St Regis Resort
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
6:30pm

Presentation and tour of properties

I can invite a few guests, does anyone want to join me?


----------



## vineyarder

Sounds interesting, but I'll be on the west coast on 9/20...  I was invited to a similar event last year, but also had a conflict.  Let us know what you learn!


----------



## Steamboat Bill

I am also invited to a Ferretti Yacht and Ferraris party in Pompano Beach on September 20th from 5:30-9:30pm

I am planning attending both parties.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

Steamboat Bill said:


> I am planning attending both parties.



You should have your firiends pick you up in the Bentley and shuttle between the parties.  You don't wanna drink and drive...


----------



## Steamboat Bill

*Busted!!!*

Wow...I just got a call from Scott Gehrke (sgehrke@exclusiveresorts.com) and was promptly *UNINVITED* from the "A Taste of Exclusive Resorts" event at the St Regis Resort in Fort Lauderdale on September 20th.

I just posted this new thread at 8:14am and got booted from the party by 3:00pm....I guess Exclusive Resorts reads the posts on TUG.  

Scott said that because I was a member of HCC and posted frequently on TUG, that I must not be serious about joining ER and they did not want bloggers at this event. Wow...I was too shocked to even try to convince him otherwise.

Because ER obviously reads TUG and this thread, this message is just for you:

1. I love Exclusive Resorts and this was the first DC that I ever considered joining well over a year ago. I have requested info from ER, spoke with them on the phone, and even toured a property in Turks and Caicos. There is a good reason why this is the most successful DC in the industry...they run a very impressive organization. However, their prices are VERY high and the fact that  even if I joined at the Affiliate level for $239,000 and $13,900 in annual dues, I still CANNOT get a holiday reservation. Therefore, I would only consider joining at the Executive level for $349,000 and $22,900 per year dues.

2. I still would like to join at the Executive level, but before spending that amount on a travel club, I wanted to fully explore the destination club industry. While doing my due diligence, I decided to first join HCC as this is a no-brainer when I found out how much it cost to join and the quality of their properties. So far, I really love HCC and the entire DC industry. I was also the first to post a thread on my desire to join TWO DC's http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47550

3. I have posted over 1,600 messages on TUG and I am the Moderator of this Destination Club forum and I have NEVER posted one single "Bad" message about ER. In fact, read this one where I posted about my "Exclusive Resorts Envy" http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44147

4. I added "Jim23" to the Destination Club Members Sticky so he can give input about this club from a member perspective. He is the only ER member to request this after 9 HCC members requested inclusion. I always welcome input from any DC member, Helium Report, and Sherpa Report.

5. I find it ironic that Steve Case made BILLIONS from AOL and the Internet, yet his company does NOT want bloggers to attend a preview event and apparently does NOT like their exposure on TUG. Somehow, I doubt that Steve was the one that *UNINVITED* me from the event and he probably would want heads to roll if he ever found out. This is a BAD precedent for ER as the Web 2.0 services like TUG and blogs represent the FUTURE of advertising. Geeze....remember how Steve flooded us with all those AOL CD-ROMs. Double irony is that I made a TON of $ off AOL stock before the Time Warner deal and I still use AOL as my preferred e-mail address as I have had it for over 10 years.

6. HCC is not competition for ER....please!...do you think Bentley is afraid of Toyota? HCC is focusing on $1m and below properties and is going after the timeshare market and will probably grow to have MORE members than ER or UR/PE as there are MORE potential buyers. ER is focusing on $3-4m properties and thus has a smaller pool of potential buyers. I beleive the world is big enough for both. ER better keep an eye out for UR/PE as this is your competition.

7. It looks like I will not have to leave the Merrill Lynch party "A Fabulous Evening with Ferretti Yachts and Ferraris" early. I have $100k burning a hole in my pocket after I sold my NCRS Top Flight 1967 Corvette at Barrett-Jackson earlier this year (Lot #726) and I have always liked Ferraris. Besides, I am a GOOD client for Merrill Lynch and when I told them I might have to leave early for the ER party, they said fantastic as they have some type of arrangement with ER and endorse this DC. I know my American Express monthly statements have an advertisement for ER notifying me that I could early 1m points.

Steve Case....You can feel free to call me if you like as Scott has my cell number.

If anyone wants to invite themselves, send Scott an e-mail as you can't be my guest now!


----------



## Kagehitokiri

excellent and enjoyable post bill  

ER: the most pompous/pretentious club 
(even moreso than yellowstone club world, which has a ~$3MM buy in)

theyve got some great savings, some great properties, and ultra plan can work well, but unless they change substantially, im still more interested in lusso and ciel for example, especially because of their unlimited use.

HCC even has unlimited last minute use for private members.


----------



## LTTravel

Steamboat Bill said:


> Wow...I just got a call from Scott Gehrke (sgehrke@exclusiveresorts.com) and was promptly *UNINVITED* from the "A Taste of Exclusive Resorts" event at the St Regis Resort in Fort Lauderdale on September 20th.
> 
> I just posted this new thread at 8:14am and got booted from the party by 3:00pm....I guess Exclusive Resorts reads the posts on TUG.
> 
> Scott said that because I was a member of HCC and posted frequently on TUG, that I must not be serious about joining ER and they did not want bloggers at this event. Wow...I was too shocked to even try to convince him otherwise.




Wow, how did they know who you are. There is no private information that they can get from this BBS, is there?


----------



## Dave M

I hope this is all a misunderstanding involving a single individual at ER and that someone at ER will fix quickly. If not, it speaks volumes about ER.

If they fix it, I'll be impressed. If they don't, 'nuf said.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

LTTravel said:


> Wow, how did they know who you are. There is no private information that they can get from this BBS, is there?



My name = Bill
Location = Boca Raton
Thread = Exclusive Resorts event in Fort Lauderdale

Phone call to Scott Gehrke from ER..."Who do you know that fits the above description?"

Even Inspector Jacques Clouseau could easily figure this out.

I have never tried to hide my identity online.


----------



## PerryM

*Thank goodness...*



Steamboat Bill said:


> My name = Bill
> Location = Boca Raton
> Thread = Exclusive Resorts event in Fort Lauderdale
> 
> Phone call to Scott Gehrke from ER..."Who do you know that fits the above description?"
> 
> Even Inspector Jacques Clouseau could easily figure this out.
> 
> I have never tried to hide my identity online.



Bill,

It's quite apparent you just don't measure up to the ER standards.  Doctors just aren't enough for ER, I'm glad to see they are keeping the rift-raft out.

Maybe you need two specialities or something....you might ask them what specialities you should get into to become qualified for membership.

Think about an MBA too, that might be what they are looking for...



P.S.
I only have a BS in Aerospace Engineering - I'm not going to even try to apply, I know I just won't make it.  Now my wife has an MBA from Wash U in St. Louis - I wonder if we could sneak in with her diploma.  (Do we need to bring it?)

Gee, what a way to start the weekend - I'm going to go sulk for a while and see if I can make it to Monday.


----------



## travelguy

*WOW!!*

What a mistake on the part of ER!!!  If this is the way that they treat a pre-qualified, targeted, potential member, how do you suppose they treat members that have already shelled out mega-bucks? 

Customer Service 101 states that you don't piss-off the customer because they tell 7 people about each negative experience and those people then tell 7 more people and the affected negative customer base grows exponentially.   Add-in the fact that it's 2007 and communications technology and the internet has made that 7 into 70 or 700 and then piss-off a BLOGGER .... well, you do the math.

This really begs the question of WHAT IS ER AFRAID OF?  And why are they acting like the typical timeshare sales organization instead of low-pressure DC sales?


----------



## Kagehitokiri

they are *definitely* more high pressure. although i havent talked much to other clubs.

"if you cant see how great we are, why i am talking to you?"

instead of being truly invite only - talk to the founder, have to be accepted, etc. THAT is my kind of club.

and gotta love how they call bill a blogger. maybe a reference to his T&C "miniblog"?  SUCH tech savvy people those ER salesmen.


----------



## travelguy

Kagehitokiri said:


> they are *definitely* more high pressure. although i havent talked much to other clubs.
> 
> "if you cant see how great we are, why i am talking to you?"
> 
> instead of being truly invite only - talk to the founder, have to be accepted, etc. THAT is my kind of club.



Sounds like the high-pressure "snob" sales close.  I thought that went out in the '80s!  About the only place that still works is for the bottle charge at the hotter Vegas Clubs.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

i dont know, i mean they do have a lot of good things (like hot/trendy nightclubs) - its just that its not the fit for everyone(for various reasons as bill pointed out very well), and their pretentiousness is so uncultured.

kind like a recent review of Twin Farms i was reading i think on flyertalk. they said the GM was EXTREMELY condescending at dinner in the main room, talking about how great the property was, and categorizing guests and treating those who did not seem to be "their kind of person" or whatever rather poorly. although in their case, they have a MUCH better excuse, seeing as they are pretty much the best in their class in the US. the Point is a lot less flexible, and winvian doesnt include alcohol.


----------



## DosMasCervesos

Steamboat Bill said:


> Scott said that because I was a member of HCC and posted frequently on TUG, that I must not be serious about joining ER and they did not want bloggers at this event. Wow...I was too shocked to even try to convince him otherwise.



Wow. That was a ridiculous move on their part.

I'm considering joining a DC and have been reading all the great posts from everyone here. The amount of information and insight from you all is outstanding (thanks!). I've talked to Heath at HCC and am still trying to determine what club will be best for our family.

I guess I'll move ER to the bottom of my consideration list.  Uh oh, now that I said that they'll never invite me to join!

Matt


----------



## Kagehitokiri

they waitlist regularly when waiting on new properties to be completed. i dont think they ever turn down people who can afford to join.


----------



## whatmough

I was considering joining both UR and ER in addition to HCC, since I've enjoyed the DC model so much.  Based on this and what I think are very questionable property selections and other practices, ER is no longer on my list.  Hope the new UR/PE management show them how do things with a little class.


----------



## LTTravel

I am amazed that ER would make such a marketing blunder. They are a marketing machine. Once Steve Case bought in, the extra homes, marketing, fancy web site and new sales tactics skyrocketing ER membership. Even the Tanner and Haley bankruptcy was good for ER as hundreds of people signed on after that. If you look at the fine print of all the memberships rules and regulations, you wonder why what looks to be a fine club like Lusso struggled to get to 100 members while ER had over 100 on the waiting list. You have the CEO of DHH joining the discussion here and the ER folks watching and then de-inviting a potential member or if not a member, a person who would have promoted the club if he had a good impression at the sales presentation. Instead, they have created the opposite result by de-inviting him. 
I think that they should call and apologize and re-invite, even if you may no longer accept at this point.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

LTTravel said:


> You have the CEO of DHH joining the discussion here and the ER folks watching and then de-inviting a potential member or if not a member, a person who would have promoted the club if he had a good impression at the sales presentation. Instead, they have created the opposite result by de-inviting him.



I appreciate all the support from members of this Forum. I may forward a link to this thread to ER corporate and see if they want to put anything in writing or even post on this thread. Now that would be interesting.

Yes, I would have posted about the presentation and St. Regis Resort and probably would have given it a huge positive rating. I toured ER's property in the Turks and Caicos and the units were incredibly decorated. I am sure the Fort Lauderdale property is much nicer.

If any TUGer wants to e-mail ER about this...that would be a riot.


----------



## Courts

You obviously are not keeping the correct company. I mean TUG is just a "Timeshare" forum.

I'll get Mr. Milburn Drysdale and Mr. Thurston Howell III to put in a good word for you.

:hysterical: 
.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

I just sent a short e-mail to the PR department at Exclusive Resorts and Steve Case inviting them to view and post to this thread.

Here is Steve Case's Blog
http://www.revolutionhealth.com/blogs/steve

Lucky thing I am a physician so I registered with Steve's revolution health site and sent him a private message. I would be completely shocked if he actually reads his messages or writes his own blog posts.

If anyone wants to view a "real Billionaire's blog"...check out Mark Cuban's blog
http://www.blogmaverick.com

Perhaps I will e-mail Mark and ask for his advice.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

Courts said:


> You obviously are not keeping the correct company. I mean TUG is just a "Timeshare" forum.



Obviously you have NOT read all the threads on this TUG sub-forum. 

There are more than a dozen active Destination Club members here and many more "high net worth" individuals that enjoy staying at destinations that cost MORE than $1,000 per night.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

> What Can I Do to Help Those Who are Serving our Country ?


 top entry at Mark's blog.


----------



## Courts

Steamboat Bill said:


> Obviously you have NOT read all the threads on this TUG sub-forum.
> 
> There are more than a dozen active Destination Club members here and many more "high net worth" individuals that enjoy staying at destinations that cost MORE than $1,000 per night.



Easy now, just trying to make a joke.

.


----------



## NeilGoBlue

I had about an hour long discussion with ER.  Brent W. He was the sales rep for this area.  I was totally unimpressed.  I really challenged him on a lot of things.  Return of deposit, etc.

His response was one of pure arrogance.  He basically kept saying over and over again.. 'we are the biggest, we are the best' you have nothing to worry about.  

Then I asked If I could stay at a property for a weekend.  I offered to pay the going daily rate. They said under no circumstances would I be able to do that.  (all the other clubs basically said if I gave them a deposit, they would let me stay for free to experience the club and one or two of the destinations)

The final straw occured when I was really challenging them on the deposit returns and the lack of equity appreciation.  He finally said this.. and I couldn't believe it...

"Our members have net worths of between 4-12 million.  400K is discretionary money and they don't challenge us on how we manage that money or how we will give it back).

I said "thank you very much... I'm going to go join Bellehavens."

I'm still in shock he said that, and it doesn't surprise me that you were uninvited.


----------



## vineyarder

Wow - that is really amazing... and about as major a gaffe as I could imagine!  Very bizarre... I cannot wait to hear what (if any) response you get from upper management!


----------



## Tedpilot

Sad story here in the making.  They are losing business and will only falter further.  If they treated some of us in this manner from the get go you have to ponder how you would be handled as a member?  My prediction...their lack of intestinal fortitude to correct their sway will result in a long and slow rot of their club.  I would never give them a penny.  Properties are nice however expousing dignity and respect are cornerstones to high class service providers.  Integrity first...never falter from it and you can never go wrong.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

I fit the ER profile perfectly and have many friends that could easily afford membership. 

One of the reasons for my financial success is my dedicated study and continual modification of my income, expenses, and investments. I probably call my financial advisor, accountant, attorney, real estate broker, and insurance agency several times a month to monitor, modify, and change some thing regarding my finances.   

Joining a Destination Club like ER would require an immediate $350,000 deposit (of which $70,000 is NON-refundable) and yearly expenses of $23,000. This averages about $1,620 per night (5% lost opportunity of deposit + annual dues / nights) and does not include the $70,000 loss when you resign from the club. 

If I joined ER for 10 years and then resigned, my average cost per night would be in the $2,000 per night range. This, my friends is NOT chump change for anyone.

Caveat emptor!!!


----------



## pwrshift

Steamboat Bill said:


> ...Joining a Destination Club like ER would require an immediate $350,000 deposit (of which $70,000 is NON-refundable) and yearly expenses of $23,000. This averages about $1,620 per night (5% lost opportunity of deposit + annual dues / nights) and does not include the $70,000 loss when you resign from the club.
> 
> If I joined ER for 10 years and then resigned, my average cost per night would be in the $2,000 per night range. This, my friends is NOT chump change for anyone.
> 
> Caveat emptor!!!


 
Maybe I shouldn't complain about $1000 MF for a Marriott TS *week* any more.     Or $2000 for 4 weeks in a row splitting 2 lockoff weeks and right next door with the same view as ER's Ft. Lauderdale suites.

Brian


----------



## Kagehitokiri

so $142 per night for a 2BR marriott TS condo. (beachfront)

http://www.private-escapes.com/clubs/properties.aspx?prop=Punta_Mita,_Mexico.prop&club=pe
beachfront home (3BR) with pool for $410 a night with preview membership by my calculation. (*not* conservative) 
the value at acquisition was ~$1MM.

HCC has 3 ski-in/ski-out townhomes (3-4BR), and their new OBX home (5BR) is worth ~$2MM.
 $233 a night with associate membership by my calculation.

(cheapest plans respectively)

also >


Steamboat Bill said:


> Compared to this year Marriott's timeshare annual dues price increases of 15% or more, all the destination clubs are looking even better.



if it works for you, thats all that matters, but i fail to see the logic in suggesting its such an amazingly fantastic deal compared to DCs. comparatively speaking, the maximum value-added of DCs is much greater.

the example i always use is ER costing ~$1K/nt for several 4BR penthouses/villas in resorts that charge ~$6K/nt in high season for 3BR penthouses/villas. and actually, banyan tree private collection's max is ~$7K/nt value for $430/nt.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

ok...by popular request....here is my invitation.

I really like the "Guests are welcome" part at the bottom.


----------



## LTTravel

pwrshift said:


> Maybe I shouldn't complain about $1000 MF for a Marriott TS *week* any more.     Or $2000 for 4 weeks in a row splitting 2 lockoff weeks and right next door with the same view as ER's Ft. Lauderdale suites.
> 
> Brian



I agree that some of the Marriott timeshares are great and they are a good deal if you take advantage of them, but a Chevy Malibu will get you to the grocery store just as easily as a Bently Continental (I know, because I have and love my Malibu, though people make fun of me for having one, my other car is a -------) but I would really rather have a Bently Continental, I just wouldn't want to pay that much for one. The Marriott Beach Place does not compare to the St. Regis. It is very nice and beachfront, but you are comparing apples and oranges. I am in Turks and Caicos right now. Beaches looks like a dump, though many people either love or hate it. The Villa Renaissance looks like it is  nice but not as nice as the Somerset which looks to be very nice and Regent Palms which appears to be even nicer. It's all a matter of what you are willing to pay for a little more. As they say,  You only live once and you can't take it with you, so some people think that if they can afford it (even if they cannot) get as much as you can.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

so you DO have a blog bill? indeed re: guests, i wonder if they would let some friends go without you since they dont like HCC members/bloggers 

LTTravel, thanks for pointing out turks and caicos, thats a great example of same location / different quality. (i couldnt think of a good one of the top of my head)


----------



## Jestjoan

May we use the address provided in the invitation and give them a few choice words? Lady and gentlemanly like, of course................


----------



## Kagehitokiri

"hi there, my HHNW/HHI is X, but im no longer interested in attending / joining because of the way you treated bill here" 



Kagehitokiri said:


> its *very* interesting how many people quit ER and join other clubs.


----------



## vineyarder

> Steamboat Bill:  I am starting to be of the opinion that the new UR/PE will be a better "top tier" club to join than ER.



Maybe this was the 'nasty' post that got you uninvited?  Looks right time-wise... Guess they can't stand the heat...


----------



## Kagehitokiri

very interesting...so instead of trying to influence his opinion, they ban him from the event. wouldnt want him spreading the "propaganda" that is "choice."


----------



## Steamboat Bill

Perhaps Exclusive Resorts needs to put a disclaimer (in very small print) on their invitations with a little * like this...

_* This offer does not apply to bloggers, active internet posters, members of other destination clubs, and this invitation may be revoked at any time for any reason._

I recently upgraded my opinion of UR/PE (and I am NOT a member of either club) based upon how they are treating their customers and how they are expanding their properties. It was NOT a dig on ER, it was simply me posting my personal opinion of various destination clubs.

As I have posted before, I am a member (not owner or investor or employee) of High Country Club and I really LOVE it. I am considering joining a second DC   like ER, UR/PE, BH, etc. and selling all my timeshares.

My timeshare collection includes 850 DVC points, Westgate Park City ski week, Marriott Manor Club Platinum and have a resale value over $100k. 

I do not have a blog, but I have posted a mini-blog of my Turks and Caicos trip to the HCC property here
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48763


----------



## johnmfaeth

Sounds like the Groucho Marx saying:

"I wouldn't join any club that would have me for a member"

Personally, I would send him a bottle of Thunderbird or Colt 45 as a holiday present in December - by FedEx.


----------



## PerryM

*Accidental eMail...*



Steamboat Bill said:


> Perhaps Exclusive Resorts needs to put a disclaimer (in very small print) on their invitations with a little * like this...
> 
> _* This offer does not apply to bloggers, active internet posters, members of other destination clubs, and this invitation may be revoked at any time for any reason._
> 
> I recently upgraded my opinion of UR/PE (and I am NOT a member of either club) based upon how they are treating their customers and how they are expanding their properties. It was NOT a dig on ER, it was simply me posting my personal opinion of various destination clubs.
> 
> As I have posted before, I am a member (not owner or investor or employee) of High Country Club and I really LOVE it. I am considering joining a second DC   like ER, UR/PE, BH, etc. and selling all my timeshares.
> 
> My timeshare collection includes 850 DVC points, Westgate Park City ski week, Marriott Manor Club Platinum and have a resale value over $100k.
> 
> I do not have a blog, but I have posted a mini-blog of my Turks and Caicos trip to the HCC property here
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48763




Bill,

Somehow your invitation was sent to another, more deserving, individual - I don't know how this happened but I got a CC of the eMail returned to ER, here is his reply.

EMail sent to me by accident:

================================
Helo ER,

As king of Nigeria i accept yours ofer.

I glad Bill not kuming and only specal peple lik me kan comee.

I want 2 joine you’re klub but as king i kan only right chk for $1,000,000.

I send u chk for $1,000,000 and u send Western Union Money Order 4 $600,000.  Plsae sendd 2:

King of Nigeria
P.O. Box 18356485
Nigeria

Thanks u soo much,

King

===============

Wow, sounds like a brand new member - now this is the kind of folks ER must want.


----------



## The Conch Man

Hey Bill ~

_*After reviewin their website, I see they have 14 homes just down the street from me here in Bonita Springs. Do I need to get in touch with Mark or who ever at ER so I can join their club?*_


----------



## mishugana

Bill did any of your friends get an invite if so go as their guest


----------



## vineyarder

Seems like this would be a great story for Helium or Sherpa to pick up on...


----------



## pwrshift

Bill .. if you need a referral to tour Marriott BeachPlace I'll be happy to provide one and I'm sure they'd be proud to show you around. 

And after, you and the ER people at the St. Regis can go and groove at the bars and Hooters down below until 3 a.m.!  

And if you buy at MBP you'll save about $500,000!  

Brian



Steamboat Bill said:


> ok...by popular request....here is my invitation.
> 
> I really like the "Guests are welcome" part at the bottom.


----------



## LTTravel

pwrshift said:


> Bill .. if you need a referral to tour Marriott BeachPlace I'll be happy to provide one and I'm sure they'd be proud to show you around.
> 
> And after, you and the ER people at the St. Regis can go and groove at the bars and Hooters down below until 3 a.m.!
> 
> And if you buy at MBP you'll save about $500,000!
> 
> Brian



Since you keep pushing Marriot Beach Place I decided to check it out. I checked out the reviews on Trip advisor and many are not positive and there are some complaints about things that are very important to me; "rooms need to be redone", "dirty", "waiting for elevators", "young kids running around", "noisy", "noise from the generators","pool is to small, didn't even go in" 
I think I'll pass (though I know  you invited Bill and not me)


----------



## Steamboat Bill

St Regis Resort and Marriott BeachPlace are about 100 yards from each other and that is about all they have in common. This would be like comparing a VW bug and a Bentley....yes they both have four wheels and can get you from point A to point B. The Exclusive Resorts units at the St Regis Resort BLOWS away the Marriott timeshare and that may be an understatement.

I grew up in East Fort Lauderdale (Coral Ridge area) and spent many days (and nights) on the strip back in the good old days when they welcomed spring breakers. I still visit the Hooters (love those wings) at Beach Place and I usually park at the Marriott (I own a Marriott timeshare and I am a Marriott Rewards member). One comment I can make is the "odor" of the hallways and staircases at that place....they need to steam clean those areas on a weekly basis.

I have visited several pre-construction condo-hotels in the Fort Lauderdale beach area and passed on buying them as the numbers simply don't work for me. I had a friend that was the VP of OceanLand, the company that wanted to buy Briny Breezes (the trailer park on the beach) for $500 million yet he moved to Canada last year as he thought South Florida beach condo prices were getting too high. He, of course, had perfect timing with his exit plan.

Although this is an interesting thread, I DOUBT that Helium Report will pick it up as they would not want to upset their #1 advertiser (I am guessing that they are #1). I am MORE interested in what ER or Steve Case has to say about this. 

I sent a link of this discussion to Scott Gehrke, the ER Public Relations department, ER web site editor, Steve Case's blog, and a few of my friends. I am viewing this as a Web 2.0 social experiment where big companies (ER) are so out of touch with their potential customers that they make embarrassing mistakes.

Although, I still would like to attend the preview, I don't want to create a scene. Perhaps the "King of Nigeria" will fill me in on what I missed.


----------



## pwrshift

I'm joshing you guys, I hope you realize. I've had big problems with the quality of Marriott BeachPlace Towers for years, actually from the day I bought it, and have vocalized that often on the Marriott board here on TUG. It does not have a wow factor that I had hoped I was buying in a 'Marriott' timeshare.

But I have been going to Ft. Lauderdale for at least 30 years as a snowbird for a month or more every year. Loved the beach, the urban centre, restaurant choices, shopping, weather, etc. I bought MBP on a dream - preconstruction - and got a very good deal and lots of Marriott points. The location facing the beach or the intracoastal, take your pick, is terrific and for years there was nothing else nearby to which you could compare - other than fleabag motels and tee shirt/tatoo shops.

But that's all changing now...and fast. The Atlantic (Starwood) opened a couple of years ago and I'm kicking myself for not buying a 1 bdrm condo hotel for 318,000 preconstr. Then the St. Regis. Then Hilton. The W opens next year as does Trump ... all condo-hotels within a 5 min walk of BeachPlace. The face of Beach Drive is changing ... and the bikinis are even better.  And the Hooters wings are the same!

The home owners assoc of MBP is putting several million dollars into a 2008 upgrade refurb, which is a long time overdue IMO, and I sincerely hope it will have the 'wow' factor to make owners proud of ownership. We will see. Of course it won't be a St. Regis, but I can walk the 100 yards and have dinner there ... or any of the other new places springing up. 

But on an investment basis - I bought my weeks for about $15,000 and took $15,000 worth of travel on the Marriott Reward points they 'gave' me for doing so. So it's a wash as far as I'm concerned as I could get 100% of my money back selling resale. And the maint for my 4 weeks is lunch money now. 

So I'm not 'pushing' Marriott BeachPlace, other than jokingly make a case (not Steve Case) for a more 'reasonable' vacation cost factor than $1500 or more a night or an upfront membership fee of $500,000 in a private company that will keep $100,000 if you resign. How much is too much, regardless of how much disposable income you have?

Brian

I don't think Ted Turner is too fond of Steve Case either ... but he lost more on AOL/TW than I did. Case fooled me once, shame on him. If ER fools me, shame on me. And, I am sure you don't expect a response from Case either.

LTTravel ... it was Bill's original idea to meet me at Hooter's next Feb when I'm there for my month and that's a date. I'm sure he wouldn't mind you joining us if you could pull yourself away from Cabo, CO, etc., etc. 




Steamboat Bill said:


> St Regis Resort and Marriott BeachPlace are about 100 yards from each other and that is about all they have in common. This would be like comparing a VW bug and a Bentley....yes they both have four wheels and can get you from point A to point B. The Exclusive Resorts units at the St Regis Resort BLOWS away the Marriott timeshare and that may be an understatement.
> 
> ...I sent a link of this discussion to Scott Gehrke, the ER Public Relations department, ER web site editor, Steve Case's blog, and a few of my friends. .


----------



## LTTravel

pwrshift said:


> LTTravel ... it was Bill's original idea to meet me at Hooter's next Feb when I'm there for my month and that's a date. I'm sure he wouldn't mind you joining us if you could pull yourself away from Cabo, CO, etc., etc.



I'll keep it in mind and see if I can make it.


----------



## steve b

*Suprised ER has not welcomed Bill's imput!*

Interesting Thread,  I am very surprised that when ER discovered that Bill was the moderator of this forum that they did not roll out the red carpet.  It seems that ER clearly would get some free exposure here the good and the bad, from folks that are legitimatey interested with DC's and probably among their best prospects.  Clearly there are pluses and minuses to all of these companies, and it surely would be nice to find DC's that listen to their members and potential members and are not fearful of the educated customer.  I have stayed at the ER product in Telluride, Punta Mita, New York and seen their units in the Turks and Caicos, (our neighbors are ER owners and still like us despite the fact that we are High Country Club members).  All kidding aside,  I see our neighbors as possible future clients of High Country Club and us as maybe possible prospects of ER in some entry level way.  In fact I personally really like ER and have always had nice things to say about the company, despite my ownership with HCC. I would welcome and probaly purchasea hybrid product that includes units in the HCC price range for some trips and at other times units at the ER level.  Seems to me that both companies could benefit from the kind of alliance or membership.


----------



## taffy19

*Busted!!!*



Steamboat Bill said:


> Wow...I just got a call from Scott Gehrke (sgehrke@exclusiveresorts.com) and was promptly *UNINVITED* from the "A Taste of Exclusive Resorts" event at the St Regis Resort in Fort Lauderdale on September 20th.
> 
> I just posted this new thread at 8:14am and got booted from the party by 3:00pm....I guess Exclusive Resorts reads the posts on TUG.


Exclusive Resorts did themselves a big disservice by taking the invitation away from you.  I cannot believe this as you have given them more publicity now than they could ever imagine and most people here agree that it serves them right! :hysterical:


----------



## Steamboat Bill

iconnections said:


> Exclusive Resorts did themselves a big disservice by taking the invitation away from you.  I cannot believe this as you have given them more publicity now than they could ever imagine and most people here agree that it serves them right! :hysterical:



It was NOT my intention to embarrass Exclusive Resorts...but it appears that they stepped into a virtural pile of dog poop.

This thread was started two days ago and already has 51 posts and 781 page views.

The MOST amazing thing happens when you Google the following phrase -> "Exclusive Resorts Party"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=exclusive+resorts+party&btnG=Google+Search

*This thread shows up as the #1 link in the Google natural (unpaid) links!!!*

This, quite simply, is the power of Web 2.0!


----------



## taffy19

Bill, did you happen to see link #2?


----------



## travelguy

steve b said:


> I would welcome and probaly purchasea hybrid product that includes units in the HCC price range for some trips and at other times units at the ER level.  Seems to me that both companies could benefit from the kind of alliance or membership.



The only problem with a High Country Club and ER alliance is that, based upon this thread and my personal experiences, they are polar opposites when it comes to customer service.  ER appears to have an old-fashioned, pre-qualifying (in a bad way), snobbish, elitist approach to customer service and sales.  My experiences with the High Country Club employees and execs, both in person and by correspondence, have proven them to be genuinely nice, concerned, caring, intelligent business people who understand the evolution of customer service in the new millennium!

Like Bill, I fit the ER target demographic but would never consider them again.  If this is how they treat their potential customers when they are trying to get your money, how badly do they treat their customers when they already have their money?  And shouldn't ER be treating their customer BETTER than HCC based upon the fact that they supposedly charge more for their memberships in part because of better service? :annoyed:


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

travelguy said:


> And shouldn't ER be treating their customer BETTER than HCC based upon the fact that they supposedly charge more for their memberships in part because of better service? :annoyed:



Any first hand reports on how ER treats members?


----------



## Kagehitokiri

HAH @ the google hit bill 

sales and customer service arent necessarily the most closely related.

(like lexus maybe)

 on one hand, ER does claim to stretch the rules for members the same way other clubs reportedly do. on the other, i doubt they take some member concerns (that go against their business model) very seriously. to a certain degree, thats to be expected, but its how they handle saying no that would say a lot about customer service. it seems to me that people would leave ER to join another club because of the model, rather than service. unless youre looking for some specific service - like ciel's butlers. (part of their model)

there are the reviews on helium report (take with a grain of salt) and i recall 2 posters here have said they are members, although apparently one of them has been waiting to clear the waitlist.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

Update

I received a nice e-mail from ER this morning and will post details later tonight as it is a typical Monday and I have a ton of "real work" to accomplish. 

Yes, I have a day job, even though I am self-employed and my kids think I only play on the computer all day!


----------



## PerryM

*Crow for dinner?*



Steamboat Bill said:


> Update
> 
> I received a nice e-mail from ER this morning and will post details later tonight as it is a typical Monday and I have a ton of "real work" to accomplish.
> 
> Yes, I have a day job, even though I am self-employed and my kids think I only play on the computer all day!



Does this mean I should load up the ol' shotgun and blast some crow for dinner tonight?  How does the CEO of ER like his crow?  Well done or incinerated?

I remember talking with ER many years ago and the snootiness just turned me off even to this day.  I still remember the phrase "This membership fee is pocket change to our members".


----------



## Kagehitokiri

i presume if he got a follow up email that means they DID review this thread.. this should be interesting.


----------



## Jestjoan

*can't wait for the details*

"Veeeery interesting" as Artie Johnson would have said.

Pehaps, the "Flying Fickle Finger of Fate" award should be given to ER.


----------



## NeilGoBlue

NeilGoBlue said:


> I had about an hour long discussion with ER.  Brent W. He was the sales rep for this area.  I was totally unimpressed.  I really challenged him on a lot of things.  Return of deposit, etc.
> 
> His response was one of pure arrogance.  He basically kept saying over and over again.. 'we are the biggest, we are the best' you have nothing to worry about.
> 
> Then I asked If I could stay at a property for a weekend.  I offered to pay the going daily rate. They said under no circumstances would I be able to do that.  (all the other clubs basically said if I gave them a deposit, they would let me stay for free to experience the club and one or two of the destinations)
> 
> The final straw occured when I was really challenging them on the deposit returns and the lack of equity appreciation.  He finally said this.. and I couldn't believe it...
> 
> "Our members have net worths of between 4-12 million.  400K is discretionary money and they don't challenge us on how we manage that money or how we will give it back).
> 
> I said "thank you very much... I'm going to go join Bellehavens."
> 
> I'm still in shock he said that, and it doesn't surprise me that you were uninvited.



Perry,

It seems we both had the same experience.. (above is my post from earlier in the thread)


----------



## Kagehitokiri

NW of $12MM means $400K = 3.3%

i guess that *might* qualify as "pocket change"

but for people in the $1MM - $10MM NW range, i would imagine $200-$400K _would_ be "discretionary" (far from pocket change - they have to think about, plan for, take market forces into account, etc before buying) not "non-discretionary" like the above post seems to suggest ER thinks. 

interesting related study
http://www.elitetraveler.com/marketvolatilitimpactstudy.pdf

for bill, from what he was saying earlier, he might have $100K in liquid assets from a car sale that he _could_ spend without discretion. then there is the $100K in TS he could "convert" into DC. id wager that sort of financial situation (not even taking into account other assets etc) is more common than the $12MM net worth for whom $400K _might_ be pocket change.

i seem to recall ciel (launched with a $1MM/$60K plan, and limited to 100 members) saying something like "the consumer we are targetting likely already own 1-2 nonprimary residences" 

and the most exclusive concierge, preferred group, has a limit of 30 clients, all with NW in excess of $100MM.

for _those_ consumers, $400K is _truly_ pocket change, but i *doubt* they would be as interested in ER as some of the other DCs or even moreso fractional ownership.


----------



## mishugana

Jestjoan said:


> "Veeeery interesting" as Artie Johnson would have said.
> 
> Pehaps, the "Flying Fickle Finger of Fate" award should be given to ER.



You bet your sweet bippie!!!!!


----------



## Steamboat Bill

*I am Invited again!*

This morning I received the following e-mail from Scott Gehrke:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr.,

Thanks for your note over the week end.  I felt our phone call ended
awkwardly on Friday and apologize for the confusion.  As I said on
Friday, we are excited that you have chosen to be a part of the growing
LDC community.  If you are truly interested in learning more about
Exclusive Resorts then we welcome seeing you Thursday evening.   The
event is for prospects that are interested in learning more about
Exclusive Resorts and the opportunity to view our residences at the St.
Regis.  

I will say it caught me off guard you were a member of HCC.  I pride
myself on representing Exclusive Resorts and myself with high integrity
and morals.  You and I have been working together since June of 2006 and
I have worked diligently to assist you in evaluating our club.  While my
position is sales, ultimately I consult and educate people on Exclusive
Resorts and their vacation needs.  We are not a fit for everyone and
only invite people to join after a thorough evaluation of the club.
This is why our member satisfaction is an unprecedented 96%.  

Again, I am glad you recognize the void the luxury destination clubs are
filling and hope you are enjoying your membership.  If you choose to
attend I look forward to meeting you in person.

My very best,

Scott
----------------------------------------------------

My question to TUGers is...”What should I do...go or no go?”


----------



## Dave M

I would go, for several reasons. 

First, you originally had an interest in going. So why not go for those same reasons?

Second, Scott has been big enough to recognize his error. Why not take him up on that invitation rather than stand on principle and spurn him?

Third, as moderator for this forum, you can pick up some useful knowledge that will help others.

Fourth, and perhaps most imp0ortantly, you might decide that ER is for you!


----------



## mishugana

*go bill*

go and give them heck


----------



## LTTravel

I agree that you should go. Someone has to swallow alot of pride to admit that they are wrong. I think that they have admitted that they made a mistake and I respect that. Go and check it out and let us know what you find out.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

not bad at all. wonder what exactly happened - whether he read the thread before, and then again, or what.

id certainly be curious to hear your impressions of the information and tours at the event bill, if you do go. even if you keep the "report" extremely brief.


----------



## Tedpilot

Don't go, their integrity was already busted, mistake or not (not I think....Do Perry's & Neil's experiences not say anything??)  I would not trust these guys further than I could throw them.  Any salesman worth their weight knows exactly what to say and do should a customer make any reference to a competetor.  Shame on him for his veiled effort to get back in your good graces, damage has already been done...now three times by my count.

Ted


----------



## Jestjoan

If I were you, I wouldn't go........Ted makes some very excellent points.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

im not sure how much salesmen reflect on quality of product / customer service. even though other clubs might have better relationship based sales etc, that doesnt necessarily mean that their customer service is the best, or better than ER.

OTOH if this even is going to features lots of such salesmen, maybe it would be better to avoid it, as it wont be very much fun.

maybe it depends on how good the other party is as well


----------



## GregGH

Dave M said:


> I would go, for several reasons.
> 
> First, you originally had an interest in going. So why not go for those same reasons?
> Second, Scott has been big enough to recognize his error. Why not take him up on that invitation rather than stand on principle and spurn him?
> Third, as moderator for this forum, you can pick up some useful knowledge that will help others.
> Fourth, and perhaps most imp0ortantly, you might decide that ER is for you!



Hello

I thought Dave said is very well -- go -- be objective ( and that will be hard to do ) and report back for the benefit of us all

BTW- very interesting report linked by Kagehitokiri --thanks for posting

A MOST INTERESTING thread ....  this has my attention ...

Best of luck either way

Greg


----------



## Kagehitokiri

GregGH said:


> BTW- very interesting report linked by Kagehitokiri --thanks for posting


Elite Traveler's research is REALLY interesting stuff 
http://www.elitetraveler.com/research.html

wow, very interesting timing >
http://www.elitetraveler.com/2007-0814.html
Marketing Alert: Mass Affluent Meltdown Gains Momentum...
Donn Davis and *Steve Case* continue their Revolution...


> Another Miraval will open in 2010 in Costa Rica as part of a mega-complex that will include an ER community with its own private clubhouse, a 100-room Miraval Resort and 50 Miraval residences that will each be priced in the millions. There will also be a 120-unit all-suite One & Only Resort in the development fashioned after their Maldives retreat. It is the first time an outside operator has come into an ER development, and for Davis and Case it's a stamp of approval from a preeminent uber-luxury brand that will also use Cacique for their first ever foray into real estate with 250 fully serviced residences priced from $2-$20 million...On the once-in-a-lifetime front, Davis chartered a Seabourn ship for two weeks in the Med this year with a customized itinerary for members. It sold out in two weeks. For 2008/2009, a series of 16 fantasy trips will be offered, including a Dude Ranch and an biking trip through Provence.



other industry articles >
http://www.elitetraveler.com/etinsider.html

amusing >
http://www.elitetraveler.com/testimonials.html
http://www.elitetraveler.com/etvideos.html

while it certainly would be nice / informative for us if bill went, i hope he weighs his own feelings as well


----------



## Steamboat Bill

*1,400 page views and counting*

Here are some of my thoughts on this entire situation:

1. I originally was very happy to be invited to attend the ER party and was planning on posting a mini-review of the property. Remember I have always liked ER, but have only visited one of their properties in Turks and Caicos and it was extremely nice. Their dedicated private concierge was very friendly.

2. I have no ax to grind or hidden agenda with Exclusive Resorts. I first heard about ER while I was making an offer on some condos in Deer Valley in 2002 (they never accepted my offers but that is a separate story) right after the Olympics. I think they had a little storefront on Main Street and advertised in the Park City/Deer Valley magazines. The membership price was MUCH less than what it is now and I did not join as they only had property in Deer Valley and I was clueless about “Destination Clubs”, this of course is something I regret as the prices have risen dramatically. While on the same topic, I also regret not buying Apple stock in 2003 when it was only $6 per share and it is now $150 (ouch). I think I called ER in 2005 and spoke with a female and they sent me a brochure. I reengaged with ER and spoke with Scott in 2006 and he has been very informative and has answered most of my questions. Other than the invite->uninvite conversation, I have no complaints.

3. I learned a new term today: “LDC community” which means “luxury destination club community”. I guess that the standard “DC” for “Destination Club” is no longer appropriate and needed an adjective added for better clarification. Someone needs to trademark these names (smiley face).

4. I am not sure why ER is so concerned if a prospective customer is a member of another DC, owns a timeshare, or has a bunch of hotel-condos. I have spoken with HCC, UR, and PE in the past and none of those clubs seemed worried about other DCs. In fact, they all like to talk about how they offer better value than ER. For the record, I also own DVC, Westgate, and Marriott timeshares and they ALL are happy to talk to me whenever I take a tour at a new property. I actually think my DVC sales rep Chris Mansour has me on speed-dial as I have bought seven (7) contracts from him over the past several years and he calls me every few months to chat. If you can’t tell from my aviator, I really love Disney.  Westgate regularly calls me (I hate those calls) and sends me promos. Guess what, I just booked a school trip (dads and kids only) for 60 rooms and 90 kids at the Westgate River Ranch dude ranch for all my “Boca friends”…it will be fun to watch them drive their Bentley’s, BMW 750’s, MB 550s, and Jags thru the mud. Last year we went to Hawks Cay in the Florida Keys and had a blast.

5. This thread has been very enlightening and I am AMAZED to see how many different individuals posted on this topic. I am also AMAZED to see how Google is a much better search engine than Yahoo as this thread has already been indexed by Google and not by Yahoo. Perhaps it is time to short Yahoo stock.

6. If I was an executive with Exclusive Resorts, I would immediately institute some type of customer service workshops for all their employees. I am NOT singling out anyone, but the amount of posts here all have the same theme that ER is “snobbish” and that is an image they can’t afford to have, especially with UR growing so rapidly with the T&H and PE mergers. Perhaps they all should read “The Disney Way” by Bill Capodagli. ER’s cavalier attitude towards the membership fee may work like a charm for the blue bloods, but will only piss off the average millionaires they are now trying to court.

7.  ER should strongly consider adding a new category to their membership to focus on homes that cost $1-2m and have 2-4 week membership plans that would have an average cost per night in the $500 range…or think about buying HCC. I am not kidding about this as I personally think this level of membership represents the “DC Sweet Spot” and the number of members that would join could easily be over 10,000 in a few years. At these numbers, this category would produce more revenue than their current offerings. Is anyone listening?

8. ER and all the DCs should embrace the Internet and Web 2.0. Just check out tripadvisor.com and you will see how cool (and valuable) sites like these are. Try adding a Blog to your sites, RSS, or online message forums. A full-blown social interface like facebook.com would be even cooler. Why don’t more DCs and timeshare companies post on forums like TUG? This is the CHEAPEST form of advertising there is in the world!

9. ER may be the Destination Club’s 800 pound Gorilla, the current King of the Hill, or even the Big Kahuna, but guess what…every DC is gunning for you and just waiting for you to trip. This reminds me of Microsoft Vista…when is Apple going to pounce…when will Google release a free Windows style OS? Does ER really care about its reputation, its potential customers, or even about the competition? ER really needs better answers for the question on everybody’s mind, “Why should I join your club?” When I stayed at Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Largo resort a few years ago, I wanted to tour his new “Trump International Golf Club” in West Palm Beach…guess what…they arranged a limo and personal tour of the club….nice!

10.  I will try to attend the ER party even thought that means I have to leave the Merrill Lynch party with Ferrari’s early.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

http://www.elitetraveler.com/2007-0814.html#4
bill, you might be interested in that article - the author spoke with donn davis, steve case's "deputy" at revolution resorts (parent company of ER and miraval apparently) it was certainly a lot more interesting than the mainstream media coverage, or even the occasional helium/sherpa interview.

also, its been demonstrated that google does have some real weaknesses especially with general search (after they started expanding) and personally, i _really_ question their business practices / ideology..


----------



## travelguy

Tedpilot said:


> Don't go, their integrity was already busted, mistake or not (not I think....Do Perry's & Neil's experiences not say anything??)  I would not trust these guys further than I could throw them.  Any salesman worth their weight knows exactly what to say and do should a customer make any reference to a competetor.  Shame on him for his veiled effort to get back in your good graces, damage has already been done...now three times by my count.
> 
> Ted



Ted is absolutely correct.  I'm laughing as I read that ER has "admitted that they made a mistake", is "big enough to recognize his error" and has "swallowed alot of pride to admit that they are wrong".  

ER has done none of the above, they are simply in damage control mode!


----------



## Kagehitokiri

IMHO it depends on what exactly happened though.. i mean, if this guy was told something by someone else for example, we dont know what they told him.. it seems unclear to me based on his followup email.

seems bill told him he was HCC member at some point later on? but where did the "blogger" reference come from?


----------



## travelguy

Steamboat Bill said:


> 7.  ER should strongly consider adding a new category to their membership to focus on homes that cost $1-2m and have 2-4 week membership plans that would have an average cost per night in the $500 range…or think about buying HCC. I am not kidding about this as I personally think this level of membership represents the “DC Sweet Spot” and the number of members that would join could easily be over 10,000 in a few years. At these numbers, this category would produce more revenue than their current offerings. Is anyone listening?



I don't believe that ER has the ability to be profitable at this price point, let alone be competitive.  The reason that High Country Club is successful in this niche is because of their corporate efficiency and other attributes that I won't get into here.  You can bet that other DCs and outside players have all done the biz model mock-ups of a DC at the HCC price points and determined that they are better off at the mid and upper price points.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

in addition to HCC, PE had their $800K tier, and some of portofino's "$1.5MM" tier seem to me to be more comparable to $800K > $1MM..

but i agree, ER is more concerned with maximizing profit/number of homes, and any additional "watering down" especially with a new lower tier doesnt serve their model. look how long it took them to add the affiliate membership. and not _that_ many people join at that level anyway. its like they offer it more to get people in at a lower price in the hopes that theyll upgrade (they probably ran studies/models/etc and have been vindicated through experience i would imagine)


----------



## travelguy

Kagehitokiri said:


> IMHO it depends on what exactly happened though.. i mean, if this guy was told something by someone else for example, we dont know what they told him.. it seems unclear to me based on his followup email.
> 
> seems bill told him he was HCC member at some point later on? but where did the "blogger" reference come from?



Kag (with all due respect),

Totally disagree with you on this one.

It's does not matter *WHY *the ER sales rep responded in the manner that he did or where the info came from ... the issue is *HOW *he responded!  The manner in which he responded is totally irresponsible for any salesperson and, based upon the circumstantial evidence, is part of a larger corporate culture attitude.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

IMHO there IS the "what if" - what if someone told scott that bill had "blogged" that he had tricked ER into letting him attend even though he wasnt interested or something.. (something negative/etc)

i mean, thats kind of like if a journalist said something negative about someone before going for an interview. or that they were going to spin in a negative light. and the subject of the interview overheard this. IF bill was a blogger. i guess im just saying im reserving final judgement on just how bad it was since i dont know exactly what happened. - just the 2 messages from scott to bill.

i am NOT looking to provide a general defense for his actions.

i DO agree ER's sales arent the greatest. (more like TS, car, or a too-hip-for-its-own-good club)

but i also am NOT sure that sales mgmt etc REALLY reflects on things like customer service, beyond things like not taking certain comments/criticism to heart - like if someone was making property selection suggestions that do not fit with ER's model of buy bulk cheap.. (and even if other clubs have much better service - that doesnt necessarily mean that ER's is terrible)

hopefully we will hear some more experiences from the 1-2 ER members on the forum over time..


----------



## PerryM

*Only one thing matters....*

There's only one thing that matters - free food.

If there's free food or adult beverages then Bill should go, if not screw them.

This is like comps at a casino - no comps, just leave.

If Bill does go I think the clowns at ER now realize that insulting an individual can have repercussions that can bite them in the ass.  Maybe these guys are just figuring this out, if so we have provided a valuable life lesson and they should thank us - free food would be nice.  Outback steak house coupons are a great way to say "I'm sorry".


----------



## LTTravel

lets be fair here. ER is not the only club that the sales people make mistakes. I have spoken to other clubs who have told me "If you don't join us, join anyone else, but don't join ER". I have been told that members of ER can't get any reservations. That they are all unhappy.(which I have been told by members is not true) I don't mind other DC's comparing themselves to ER but compare based on the facts, such as a refund of 100% the first year if you are unhappy like Quintess, or a lower yearly membership dues increase such as CPI + 2% instead of CPI + 4.5%, or no adjustment to market every ten years, or direct comparision of all their homes to all of ER's homes, not just their lower valued homes. If you are able to dish out $450,000 for a membership, you want to be treated different than someone who wants to buy a cheap TS where they feed you runny eggs and bacon and pressure sell you. This does not mean that ER should be disrespectful, which I think happens occasionally, but I think that it may happen at other companies and it is easy to pick on #1 which has been increadibly successful in increasing membership while other clubs, which appear to be a better value, have been struggling. I think that the comparisons should be based on the merits of the clubs, not a mistake a salesperson made.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

> I have spoken to other clubs who have told me "If you don't join us, join anyone else, but don't join ER".


  oh now im curious - which clubs? (you could say as long as you dont name reps, couldnt you?) 

another thing that was kind of interesting is when i talked to ER, i had just wanted to ask about the centurion discount - i didnt even know if i was calling amex or ER. but they kept the conversation going or whatever - asked me lots of questions. (escalating the process / encouraging me to buy / etc) whereas when i called HCC and lusso, they just answered my questions nicely etc, and said to let them know if they can ever be of more help, that sort of thing. (letting me set the pace)


----------



## johnmfaeth

I normally avoid timeshare tours and presentations because no free gifts make up for the angst that I get sitting there and being hard sold somethng thats "way overpriced" (and that's being kind considering the lies and deceptions, had 5 other terms for what occurs that would be editted out as too crass).

If I want that anxiety, I can just skip vacation and deal with clients in NYC.

And what is a DC but a high end timeshare-type system? Should one expect less than duplicitous behavior from their sales types, of course not.

That said, curiosity of what the high end "timeshare" parties are like would make me lean towards going.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

destination clubs have NOTHING to do with timeshares. 
- no ownership/deed
- no exchange
- properties within club or each club membership tier are same value (~$1MM+)
- because of those things > no weeks or points, just nights
- properties are usually single family (and 2BR+ NOT LO) instead of multifamily
- properties are acquired not developed (only 1 private development has been completed so far, and 2 more have been announced)

fractionals/private residence clubs MIGHT be called high end timeshares, but they include at least 2-3 weeks, and can often include much more usage. they are also not priced way over market value (at least at the high end - although since demand is so high and supply is so low, the margins are starting to increase) which is the whole business model for timeshares.

because their model is NOT based on ripping people off, there is no reason for them to flat out lie. even though they may be pretentious etc..

also re timeshare sales - i would imagine the sales people for the 2 four seasons timeshares are not high pressure. and ive heard a number of people say that when they were on starwood explorer programs (which required owner referrals) their sales presentation was much lower pressure. although i did read another report recently where they said it was high pressure.


----------



## PerryM

Kagehitokiri said:


> *destination clubs have NOTHING to do with timeshares*.
> 
> fractionals/private residence clubs MIGHT be called high end timeshares, but they include at least 2-3 weeks, and can often include much more usage. they are also not priced way over market value (at least at the high end - although since demand is so high and supply is so low, the margins are starting to increase) which is the whole business model for timeshares.
> 
> because their model is NOT based on ripping people off, there is no reason for them to flat out lie. even though they may be pretentious etc..
> 
> also re timeshare sales - i would imagine the sales people for the 2 four seasons timeshares are not high pressure. and ive heard a number of people say that when they were on starwood explorer programs (which required owner referrals) their sales presentation was much lower pressure. although i did read another report recently where they said it was high pressure.



Correct!  Timeshares are a much safer "investment".


----------



## Kagehitokiri

this would seem more appropriate to me >

#1 high end fractionals / hotel condos / hotel residences
#2 high end timeshares
#3 equity destination clubs, which vary
#4 timeshares (not taking flipping into acccount)

personally, if i want an investment, id be looking at other things. even within real estate.

destination clubs are primarily designed to provide luxury (to a varying degree) travel. any equity/investment/etc is a bonus.

the vast majority of timeshares, especially purchased from the developer = anti-investment


----------



## johnmfaeth

From a legal perspective, fractionals are exactly timeshares. If you look at the deeds, they are typically "time sequenced condominiums" which is what a timeshare also is legally (oops bad grammer). The only difference is that you have more than one week. Some of Shawnee Northslope in PA was sold as a fractional with 12 weeks of ownership, one per month. It's still just a fancy name for timeshare.

No a DC is different in that you get to go as often as you wish to pay, with a certain minimum commitment. And the properties are often homes, not resorts or multiple dwellings. 

However the concept is the same. Acquire a pool of properties, sell memberships, and make a big management overhead. And people are locked into your "system".

Having spent much of my career on Wall Street, working with investment bankers and institutional traders, the truly rich don't tie up their capital this way, they keep it invested in more traditional instruments. When they want to go away for a month, they rent a property for cash from one of the multitude of high end property management companies. Be it a villa in Tuscany, a place in St. Andrews, or a beachfront house on St. John. Same thing, less risk, no commitment, and about the same cost.

Yes, the sales types are more subtle, they must be as they clients are very successful in business and therefore sharper. But it is just a refinement of the same selling model.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

i just dont see how you can compare the TS model for use to the DC model for use.

also, the "huge overhead" is simply not there. while ER may be more focused on maximizing profit, they have to concerned with overall member satisfaction, because members can resign, and people could STOP joining. TS simply sell out, and theyre done. they have annual fees as income forever.

how are you locked in when you can refund for 100% or 100% + equity at any time? again, not like TS. i see no similarities. even the DCs that give 80% refund are still way better than TS that you have to RESELL for a small fraction of what you paid to the developer. 

the increasing margin at high end fractionals like little nell is only because supply is so low and demand is so high.

you realize there are plenty of fractional villas as well, correct? like the $4MM castiglion del bosco, which has ~6 owners per villa, but allows unlimited usage by default, and even the reserving of multiple villas simultaneously. palazzo tornabuoni also allows the multiple reservations.

fractional ownership (jets, homes, vehicles) charter cards (jets, homes) and destination clubs are going to have an increasing effect on the luxury market. 

clubs like ciel and solstice DO cater to very high net worth individuals.

yellowstone club world is clearly priced that way, requires yellowstone club membership etc, but i am confused as to why they seem to be developing mainly multifamily properties. that doenst seem like it would be as appealing to such consumers. but i dont know what their membership numbers are like..

also onekeyworld is like a charter card for homes - charging $2K - $2.3K per night, which can be up to a ~50% discount at some of their current properties.

id also like to see a timeshare that has the discounts that some destination clubs have >
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=385650&postcount=15

or unlimited use for free.


----------



## PerryM

*Hold on there partner....*



Kagehitokiri said:


> i just dont see how you can compare the TS model for use to the DC model for use.
> 
> also, the "huge overhead" is simply not there. while ER may be more focused on maximizing profit, they have to concerned with overall member satisfaction, because members can resign, and people could STOP joining. TS simply sell out, and theyre done. they have annual fees as income forever.
> 
> how are you locked in when you can refund for 100% or 100% + equity at any time? again, not like TS. i see no similarities. even the DCs that give 80% refund are still way better than TS that you have to RESELL for a small fraction of what you paid to the developer.
> 
> the increasing margin at high end fractionals like little nell is only because supply is so low and demand is so high.
> 
> you realize there are plenty of fractional villas as well, correct? like the $4MM castiglion del bosco, which has ~6 owners per villa, but allows unlimited usage by default, and even the reserving of multiple villas simultaneously. palazzo tornabuoni also allows the multiple reservations.
> 
> fractional ownership (jets, homes, vehicles) charter cards (jets, homes) and destination clubs are going to have an increasing effect on the luxury market.
> 
> clubs like ciel and solstice DO cater to very high net worth individuals.
> 
> yellowstone club world is clearly priced that way, requires yellowstone club membership etc, but i am confused as to why they seem to be developing mainly multifamily properties. that doenst seem like it would be as appealing to such consumers. but i dont know what their membership numbers are like..
> 
> also onekeyworld is like a charter card for homes - charging $2K - $2.3K per night, which can be up to a ~50% discount at some of their current properties.
> 
> id also like to see a timeshare that has the discounts that some destination clubs have >
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=385650&postcount=15
> 
> or unlimited use for free.




A DC can be made for ANY price point – they could be $250k condos or $10 M condos – it’s up to the marketing folks at the DC which price point they want to go after.

Beyond that timeshares are much safer of an “investment” than DCs.  I can buy WorldMark credits this morning for 65¢ a credit, need 4,000 credits to stay at a $500k Marriott on the beach in Ft. Lauderdale next week and then sell those same credits for 65¢ a week later.

All the while there are all kinds of timeshare and real estate laws to protect my “investment”.

With DCs I got zip protection from ANY government agency – zilch, zero, none.  I am really into unsecured loans to folks over the phone.

With my 65¢ WM credits I can actually rent all I want for 6¢ and stay at a Westin condo on Ka’anapali beach for just 10,000 credits or $600 + $135 exchange fee.  That condo is worth $1 M.  WM owners do this.

So let’s not poo-poo timeshares in the hands of owners who know how to use and maximize them.

Me, I’m waiting for the Ritz-Carlton or someone like that to decimate the DC industry and then either buy into it or buy DC’s for 10¢ on the dollar all those snooty DC's.  I can wait for it.

These membership fees of $400k and above are just smoke and mirrors to begin with – you own NOTHING but an unsecured loan.


----------



## Jestjoan

*Buy Belgium instead*

According to a headline on Road Runner, it's for sale on EBay.


----------



## johnmfaeth

Now Belgium works for me, the home of French Fries, no they are not French after all. (oddiest thing about the Freedom Fries days).

Belgium also has the most breweries per capita of any country on Earth.

What's the current high bid?


----------



## Kagehitokiri

perry, 

i think i was clear on my opinion of investments. i was also only addressing the the business model of TS developers, not the intelligent purchase/use of TS by consumers.

i explained my reasoning why IMHO its highly unlikely that RC/etc will enter DC market >
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=393696&postcount=3

im curious because i presume you have reasons that you think they will enter the DC market, but you have not explained that reasoning. also, what might they offer that would "decimate" the current DCs?

IMHO the luxury chain to watch is Rosewood, to see whether they start doing any fractionals or DC type thing.


----------



## travelguy

Well, at least this thread has stayed on topic .....


----------



## Kagehitokiri

Steamboat Bill said:


> This thread was started two days ago and already has 51 posts and 781 page views.
> 
> The MOST amazing thing happens when you Google the following phrase -> "Exclusive Resorts Party"
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=exclusive+resorts+party&btnG=Google+Search


wow, in the non-traditional forum, this thread is >

#1 by replies
#5 by views


----------



## PerryM

*Snobs R us......*



Kagehitokiri said:


> perry,
> 
> i think i was clear on my opinion of investments. i was also only addressing the the business model of TS developers, not the intelligent purchase/use of TS by consumers.
> 
> i explained my reasoning why IMHO its highly unlikely that RC/etc will enter DC market >
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=393696&postcount=3
> 
> im curious because i presume you have reasons that you think they will enter the DC market, but you have not explained that reasoning. also, what might they offer that would "decimate" the current DCs?
> 
> IMHO the luxury chain to watch is Rosewood, to see whether they start doing any fractionals or DC type thing.




Some large named hotel chain, who has lots of folks constantly looking for real estate, is going to enter this field at some point - it's just too easy to enter the DC field and instantly take it over.

If it's not the Ritz it could be Marriott or Westin or Hyatt - name the hotel brand and it would be little challenge to enter the field.

Buy 50 condos around the world and sell 500 memberships each for $400k and the market would be impacted with this introduction.  Make it 100% equity and charge 8% of the membership fee to manage the condos and allow folks to sell their membership on the free market with a ROFR.

Then, next month, do the same thing.

This is what folks who are snobbish in the first place want - a Ritz-Carlton or a St. Regis name or better and not some DC that their friends have never heard of.

Live by the snob, die by the snob.

Now I have nothing to back this up but my own desire to own a DC with the name Ritz-Carlton on it and backed with 100% equity and sell it on the open market for a profit later.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

i see what youre saying now.

but why not buy a fractional? some of RC's hold value quite well. and someone on this forum said they allow internal exchanges within 45 days where you can use your annual nights or pay $250/nt.

do you prefer the DC usage model?

10:1 is not a good member to property ratio... 
worldwide private residences is looking to do that, as an equity club with a 10 year maturity and no annual fee. they say "minimum 5 weeks" so not sure if they allow unlimited space available use. im definitely watching them with the hopes that they are successful and expand to their planned 300 members / 30 properties. but not sure it looks good, considering they launched with 3 properties, and are now down to 2.  (would only accomodate 20 members)
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=364095&postcount=71
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=338075&postcount=9

also, im personally not as interested in condos. nor am i particularly interested in the current hotel partnerships that bellehavens and ultimate resort have in place

and not sure about the whole snob comment, because if the DC owns luxury properties, including luxury hotel managed properties, or has butlers etc en-residence, how is that not the same as owning / renting / etc directly with the luxury properties?


----------



## Jestjoan

EBay was happy to take Six' advertisement. 

"It was a really fun listing made by a Belgian," Peter Burin, PR manager of EBay Belgium. "This person, in a very funny way, reminded the Belgians what a great country Belgium actually is and it would be a shame to sell it." 

However, the company decided to pull the ad Tuesday after receiving a bid of $14 million. 

"We decided to take it down, just to avoid confusion," he told APTN.


----------



## PerryM

*Look at this...*

Look at the 107 Ritz-Carlton condos for sale in Maui.

I've called them 10+ times and they won't return a phone call - they are only speaking to folks who already own Ritz fractionals and then us common folks.  I'm told that they will stop at 1,000 reservations for those 107 condos.

At the IntraWest resort 1 mile away they took over 2,500 reservations for the 310 condos sold.

Those 107 condos could be put into a DC and if Ritz wanted they could keep the units and sell $400k memberships with no equity ownership - just like 95% of the DC world.

Then, next month buy 100 condos somewhere else.....  they use your money and you pay them rent - the definition of a DC!

P.S.
Look at the pull down menu - 29 similar Ritz residences.  Think Ritz couldn't own the DC universe in a few days?

Then try to sell your membership for your 80% - how long will you have to wait to get your money out and go Ritz like everyone else?


----------



## Kagehitokiri

so the fractionals that are available for resale now are only the ones that dont hold value as well?

id think you might contact brokers, and see if there is anyone who might be interested in selling, but isnt listed right now...

i would personally not be interested in an RC DC.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

*More reflections*

Few more thoughts:

1. ER has broken the 3,000 member mark. This is awesome news and indicates the DC market (oops…I mean LDC market) is healthy and strong. It appears that ER is breaking away from the pack in terms of total members. I personally find this amazing as they are targeting households with a Net Worth of at least $5 million, but their “sweet spot” is between $10 million to $20 million net worth. July was the club's best sales month in its five-year history and 90% did NOT finance their membership. Interestingly, 20% percent of club members are frequent users of private jets.

2. The Destination Club industry is still very small in terms of Market Cap. Is ER worth $1b…I am not sure, but Marriott has a market cap of $16.4b. Clubs like UR/PE, QT, HCC, BH are worth MUCH less. This is not a bad sign, it just show how much room there is for growth. I remember when Yahoo was worth $1b and I couldn’t believe a web site could be worth so much. Now Google has a market cap of $167b....perhaps Google should start a DC or LDC.

3. ER is smarter than I am. Come on…look at what they have done. However, this thread definitely points to some cracks in their business model. I am still surprised that nobody from ER or any other DC has publically posted on this forum. That’s ok.

4. I have never tricked anyone to get into any of these events. Additionally, I almost always refuse to accept a free gift when I sign up for a timeshare tour as I don’t want to be “trapped” for 90 minutes. Most of the time, I can size up a property (or club) within 5-10 minutes of my tour and don’t want to waste my time worrying about getting some coupon or trinket. Free food and drinks, however are always welcome at any event. I was invited to a Collexium.com event (think destination club for exclusive cars) and they served food and drinks, but did not let you drive or ride in any of the cars (they did let me sit in the Murcielago) and I regularly see their cars at my kids school carpool lane.

5.  My personal opinion is that “any DC” is FAR superior to “most timeshares”. Yes, the Four Seasons have a few nice timeshares, but is no such thing as a crappy DC and there are a plethora of crappy timeshares out there. Mark my words…DCs represent the future of upscale travel accommodations. I have owned them all – homes, second homes, condos, hotel-condos, timeshares, boats, cars, etc. and I am MOST satisfied with my HCC DC membership. My DC membership has NOT made me any money, but it has provided me with great vacation destinations at great prices.

6. To PerryM – let’s keep this tread focused on ER. You can start a new thread about the pros and cons of joining a DC if you want. For the record, I too would be very interested if the Ritz-Carlton (also owned by Marriott) started a DC, but there is no guarantee that they would instantly dominate the industry. I have MANY different types of investments and try to be smart with my money management. I simply decided that joining a destination club does not have to be an income producing vehicle nor do I expect to make money off joining. As I have posted on other threads, I have made a nice ROI on my DVC timeshare purchases (even thought Disney does not like to use the word timeshare). Guess what, DVC just announced a new DVC property in California and I am sure Chris will be calling me soon. Also, not every rich person is a snob…just the very “nouveau riche” and all the people that move to Boca from NY (just kidding).

7. Johnmfaeth is right, wealthy people usually make smart decisions with regards to money management and don’t like a lot of hassles, especially while on vacation. For them cash = flexibility.

8.  This thread is, and has been, fun but my typing fingers are getting tired. Do you think any of my ramblings are making any difference at all? Is anyone really listening? The online world is still a lonely place compared to the real world.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

well i for one enjoyed this thread, and thought there was a lot of interesting discussion  
i certainly look forward to hearing your thoughts after you go to the event.

i strongly agree on #5, IMHO you worded it perfectly.

my last comment in this thread on the fractional VS full - fractional eliminates the hassle, and in some cases reduces the expense, of managing/maintaining the product yourself. so theres clearly a market for it, even with people who could easily afford full ownership. ive seen numerous quotes from owners > "i could afford to buy outright, but WHY would i want to?"



> I am still surprised that nobody from ER or any other DC has publically posted on this forum.



nick, the CEO of DHH?

oh, and one other thought bill - maybe you should look for another 2 friends / etc to share an ultra membership with, if youre still weighing joining ER. (buying the top membership and then upgrading would be cheaper, but the cost of the upgrade is NOT refundable) it ends up being cheaper than affiliate, you get a few more nights, more holiday use, no restrictions on booking properties simultaneously, and no restrictions on who can use your nights. definitely a pretty solidly competitive deal / plan IMHO.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

Guess who just called me at 5:27 pm EST?

Chris Mansour from DVC called me to inform me about the new DVC property in California. They are not for sale yet, but he wanted to let me know about the opportunity. I told him to put my name on his list and reserve one immediately when they go on sale. This property will sellout fast as there are only 50 two-bedroom units.

Chris is a great guy and I highly recommend him if you are interested in DVC. Perhaps some DC should try to hire him away from Disney as he is one of the best timeshare salesperson I have ever met. His direct number is 800-827-4665, but he has worked for the mouse for many years is is doing very well.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

PerryM said:


> Look at the 107 Ritz-Carlton condos for sale in Maui.
> 
> I've called them 10+ times and they won't return a phone call - they are only speaking to folks who already own Ritz fractionals and then us common folks.  I'm told that they will stop at 1,000 reservations for those 107 condos.
> 
> ?



If Ritz is doing so well selling fractionals why would they want to enter into the DC market at this time?

At some point a major hotel/timeshare player may enter the DC market, however, it is a major shift from what they currently do.  Ritz/Hilton/Marriott, etc., all build and market larger properties in fewer locations.  The DC market is built on fewer properties in multiple locations.


----------



## PerryM

GOLFNBEACH said:


> If Ritz is doing so well selling fractionals why would they want to enter into the DC market at this time?
> 
> At some point a major hotel/timeshare player may enter the DC market, however, it is a major shift from what they currently do.  Ritz/Hilton/Marriott, etc., all build and market larger properties in fewer locations.  The DC market is built on fewer properties in multiple locations.




Short answer - a DC allows them to "sell" memberships instantly and keep the money for decades and then return 80% of the original price yet keep the deeds and later resell them at much higher prices.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

*What's in a name?*

I was thinking about the name “Exclusive Resorts”

According to dictionary.com, here are a few definitions of the word “exclusive”

1. limited to the object or objects designated: exclusive attention to business. 
2. shutting out all others from a part or share: an exclusive right to film the novel. 
3. fashionable; stylish: to patronize only the most exclusive designers. 
4. charging comparatively high prices; expensive: exclusive shops. 
5. noting that in which no others have a share: exclusive information. 
6. single or sole: the exclusive means of communication between two places. 
7. disposed to resist the admission of outsiders to association, intimacy, etc.: an exclusive circle of intimate friends. 
8. admitting only members of a socially restricted or very carefully selected group: an exclusive club. 
9. excluding or tending to exclude, as from use or possession: exclusive laws. 

The Synonyms for “exclusive” are: high-class, select, limited, private, fashionable, special, elite, restricted, select, narrow, clannish, snobbish, restrictive, cliquish, illiberal.

Think about it:
If you were a billionaire and wanted to create a “exclusive” travel club for you and some of your wealthy friends or people you want to associate with, would you rather be happy with 3,000 high net worth individuals or create a club for 10,000 or even 100,000 average folks?

If money was no object, I would probably join Tim Blixseth’s Yellowstone Club, the world’s only private ski and golf club and join a fractional jet program. Does anybody know how I can score an invitation there as I do NOT fit their financial profile?

I have several friends who are members of exclusive golf clubs where there are 300 members of less for 18 holes of golf, tennis courts, pools, and very nice clubhouses. Most of the time I have visited as a guest, there is NOBODY on the course. In other words, we are able to eat lunch (be addressed by everyone by our names) and walk onto the golf course anytime we want to play and not run into anyone or have anyone behind us. Ahhhh… the good life.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

PerryM said:


> Short answer - a DC allows them to "sell" memberships instantly and keep the money for decades and then return 80% of the original price yet keep the deeds and later resell them at much higher prices.



This hits the nail on the head.

If ER only breaks even for the next 10-20 years as far as membership fees and property expenses are concerned and then decides to fold the club...their capital appreciation on all their property will probably increase by well over $1b....this is what you call pure profit.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

while its the only ski _and_ golf, yellowstone club isnt the only club with private skiing is it? i seem to recall seeing at least one in CO, but i just cant remember.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

PerryM said:


> Short answer - a DC allows them to "sell" memberships instantly and keep the money for decades and then return 80% of the original price yet keep the deeds and later resell them at much higher prices.



Ritz won't be putting together a private hedge fund anytime soon just because they can get 2% of assets and 20% of profits.

Ritz is into branding their name to the location.  That doesn't easily translate to a DC model.  Multiple units in a single location vs. a few units in multiple locations.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

PerryM said:


> A DC can be made for ANY price point – they could be $250k condos or $10 M condos – it’s up to the marketing folks at the DC which price point they want to go after.
> 
> Beyond that timeshares are much safer of an “investment” than DCs. All the while there are all kinds of timeshare and real estate laws to protect my “investment”.
> 
> With DCs I got zip protection from ANY government agency – zilch, zero, none. Me, I’m waiting for the Ritz-Carlton or someone like that to decimate the DC industry and then either buy into it or buy DC’s for 10¢ on the dollar all those snooty DC's.  I can wait for it.
> 
> These membership fees of $400k and above are just smoke and mirrors to begin with – you own NOTHING but an unsecured loan.



I agree and disagree.

DCs can and do exist for multiple levels. HCC dominates the low priced end of the spectrum with homes in the $850-1m range. ER dominates the high end with $3-4m homes. One day, there may be a new DC that focuses on condos in the $300-500k range.

Neither timeshares or DCs are true investments, but I agree that timeshares offer better protection and better opportunity for you to turn a profit. 

At this point I am viewing DCs as "money-savings" clubs as they offer desirable and expensive properties for LESS than you can usually own or rent. Not everybody wants to hunt on VRBO and take a chance. This is why Steve Case bought ER, he had a bad rental experience. By the way, this is the same argument my wife tells me after a day of shopping..."Guess how much money I saved today at the mall"

Perhaps the Ritz, Marriott, Hilton, Hyatt, Starwood, etc will enter the DC market some day. I doubt that it will decimate the DC industry as 99% of all DC members are HAPPY with their club. 

The only way one DC will win over another is to offer better homes, better locations, better service, better prices. The word "better' is very subjective.

The #1 indisputable fact is that MOST Destination Club members are EXTREMELY happy with their purchase decision while some outrageously high percent of timeshare owners are NOT happy with their decision to buy. 

Of course there are exceptions, but in comparing a DC with a TS, I say..."Res ipsa loquitur" - a Latin term meaning "The thing speaks for itself".


----------



## Kagehitokiri

"better" in certain areas for those who want those things - differentiation, unique benefits.

ciel always comes to mind first as an example, because theyre the first to have butlers. theyre definitely way over the top, and also really focus on "experiential" and have annual "experience credits" etc.

DHH is another with their transfer/resale model, instead of the club itself providing the equity.


----------



## PerryM

*Mind boggling numbers...*



GOLFNBEACH said:


> Ritz won't be putting together a private hedge fund anytime soon just because they can get 2% of assets and 20% of profits.
> 
> Ritz is into branding their name to the location.  That doesn't easily translate to a DC model.  Multiple units in a single location vs. a few units in multiple locations.





A DC has got to be the next best thing to changing lead into platinum.

Let’s say Ritz has a $4 M condo for sale.  They can sell it traditionally and get $4 M by the end of business tomorrow.  They, however, no longer own it.

In Kapalua Maui where the Ritz is here is a typical home (condos don’t have a long enough history): 

Basically since Jan of 98 the $1.45 M home is now worth $3.5 M..  That compounds out to be 10% for 10 years.  For this part of Maui it has averaged about 10% for the past 35 years.

Or they can get $4 M from 10 members paying $400k in a DC and keep the deed.  If the DC keeps the condo 30 years that $4M condo will compound out to be $63 M and Ritz paid nothing for it nor does it pay any taxes during those 30 years.  Take out 80% of $4 M and they will have to refund $3.2 M out of the $63 M.  They charge a management fee which keeps the place looking brand new 30 years later.

This is why any hotel chain wants to get into DCs – the pure profit is mind boggling – they don’t put up one penny to make these profits.

P.S.
This is just one location, adding 10 more locations with 100 condos each is duck soup these giants.

This is why I'm sitting back and waiting for something like this to happen.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

but DCs arent just condos. even HCC isnt just condos. RC doesnt have many villas. just other things to consider. and unless they stopped selling fractionals/residences, those still might sell better..

so you would prefer sticking with one lux chain, and just having condos. what kind of price range and property size/value would you be interested in? and what kind of usage?

(maybe we should have this discussion on this potential DC split and merged into a new thread too..)


----------



## PerryM

Kagehitokiri said:


> but DCs arent just condos. even HCC isnt just condos. RC doesnt have many villas. just other things to consider. and unless they stopped selling fractionals/residences, those still might sell better..
> 
> so you would prefer sticking with one lux chain, and just having condos. what kind of price range and property size/value would you be interested in? and what kind of usage?
> 
> (maybe we should have this discussion on this potential DC split and merged into a new thread too..)



No, Ritz or any DC can buy any size unit they want, condos, homes, and get the members to foot 100% of the bill while they hold the deeds and sell later for the appreciation - gold into platinum.  But it does have to be appreciating real estate.

Ritz could buy 100 homes/condos and sell 10 memberships each for $400k and sell them with the same sales reps.  "Why buy just 1 Ritz - buy 100" is the motto.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

could be wrong, but i dont think chains are going to acquire independent properties where they dont manage the entire development.. 

earlier you made reference to their current residences/fractionals, and i would see those as their portfolio options. as well as new developments of course.


----------



## Jestjoan

*Your decision*

Going or not? Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## pwrshift

*Bill Marriott says No.*

"*Vacation clubs "haven't withstood the test of time," says J.W. Marriott Jr., chief executive officer of Marriott International Inc., which has no plans to get into the business."* - Bill Marriott from this item in Business Week.  I wonder if he's changed his mind since?

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_15/b3928093.htm




PerryM said:


> No, Ritz or any DC can buy any size unit they want, condos, homes, and get the members to foot 100% of the bill while they hold the deeds and sell later for the appreciation - gold into platinum. But it does have to be appreciating real estate.
> 
> Ritz could buy 100 homes/condos and sell 10 memberships each for $400k and sell them with the same sales reps. "Why buy just 1 Ritz - buy 100" is the motto.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

Jestjoan said:


> Going or not? Inquiring minds want to know.



he did say this earlier, before things got a little sidetracked  >


Steamboat Bill said:


> 10.  I will *try to attend* the ER party even thought that means I have to leave the Merrill Lynch party with Ferrari’s early.



very interesting pwrshift. of course marriott's latest announced venture is the new boutique brand with ian schrager.


----------



## Jestjoan

Thanks. Half-heimers again!


----------



## Steamboat Bill

PerryM said:


> A DC has got to be the next best thing to changing lead into platinum.
> 
> This is why any hotel chain wants to get into DCs – the pure profit is mind boggling – they don’t put up one penny to make these profits.
> 
> This is why I'm sitting back and waiting for something like this to happen.



I agree that the DC business has great potential for the investors. For members, it is a good use of money if you desire to stay at these high level of accommodations. 

Most DCs represent a perfect "quid pro quo"

I am NOT convinced that a major hotel chain will be better for the DC industry. I actually like it the way it is with independent companies competing with various features. Of course I want the DCA to help members feel more secure with their deposits, etc.

I have invested in a few hotel-condos and have been pretty UNHAPPY with my decision to buy into that type of product. The only thing that saved my bacon was the $CAD-$USD conversion increased 30% since I bought some hotel-condos in Whistler. I have now made MORE money off the conversion, than the actual property itself and I have $0 mortgages.

I toured several hotel-condos in south Florida and have passed on every one of them as I felt their prices were too high and I am NOT convinced this is a good vehicle for investors. 

Hotel-condos = Very risky for investors but are FANTASTIC for developers like Donald Trump. 

Yes, I know, Maui may be the exception to the rule, but I have not evaluated those properties. The problem is that I have not seen one single hotel-condo that actually made money for an investor with the monthly rental or capital appreciation on resale. I just got lucky with the $CAD increasing in value.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

it seems to me its pretty much only at the high end where it CAN be a good investment. (not always)

although there was that chicago condohotel raffaello, that was from ~$250K and rates are from ~$500/nt. so assuming ~50% cut you would get ~$250+ per night. IIRC thats the best return ive seen, from a purchase/night perspective.

although at the other end, there was also the penthouse @ setai for $30MM, and in high season its rate is $25K/nt. so similar. but in low season it goes down to $15K IIRC. and im sure condo fee is insane. (pool etc) 

on second thought, the craziest example i know of.. villas at amanpuri apparently sold for $1MM-$2MM in late 80s/early 90s, and theyre renting for up to ~$7K/nt now. talk about getting in at the right time. 

have you ever seen properties with the option of a guaranteed return? thats certainly an interesting alternative. the only one ive seen so far is banyan tree (6% for 6 years) they give 30% of rental income if you go that route.


----------



## vineyarder

> Me, I’m waiting for the Ritz-Carlton or someone like that to decimate the DC industry and then either buy into it or buy DC’s for 10¢ on the dollar all those snooty DC's. I can wait for it.
> 
> These membership fees of $400k and above are just smoke and mirrors to begin with – you own NOTHING but an unsecured loan.



IF RC were to enter the DC market, what makes you think that they would undercut other DC players?  If they were to enter the market, they would almost certainly do it at the high end ($4M homes & up) and would almost certainly pricethemselves higher than other DCs in that range (after all, you're getting Ritz service, etc.)  So they would probably charge a membership deposit of $500K or up... which would be the same 'smoke & mirrors' / unsecured loan as everyone else... Plus, there would be no reason for them to offer a better refund policy, so IF they enter the market, I wouldn't be surprised if their club had a 70% or 60% refund of the deposit... After all, their highly-coveted spa memberships have deposits that are 0% refund, and they have hundreds of people on the waitlist if someone should happen to quit (or die).

So, if they enter the market, they will certainly have no problem getting members, but it would hardly 'decimate' the industry... and would likely have zero negative impact on a club like HCC, as their members would not be likely to be choosing between HCC and RC Club...  Plus, even if RC entered, and from that day forward, not a single person in the universe joined HCC, PE/UR, ER, etc., the members of those clubs would have no reason to start a mass exodus, as they would be able to continue to enjoy all the homes in their club portfolio; they just wouldn't be adding any new homes... Sure, they couldn't get their deposits back (since we are asuming that not a single person in th euniverse wants to join them once RC has a cllub), but hardly anyone is resigning the clubs now anyway, so the impact would be slight...


----------



## travelguy

vineyarder said:


> IF RC were to enter the DC market, what makes you think that they would undercut other DC players?  If they were to enter the market, they would almost certainly do it at the high end ($4M homes & up) and would almost certainly pricethemselves higher than other DCs in that range (after all, you're getting Ritz service, etc.)  So they would probably charge a membership deposit of $500K or up... which would be the same 'smoke & mirrors' / unsecured loan as everyone else... Plus, there would be no reason for them to offer a better refund policy, so IF they enter the market, I wouldn't be surprised if their club had a 70% or 60% refund of the deposit... After all, their highly-coveted spa memberships have deposits that are 0% refund, and they have hundreds of people on the waitlist if someone should happen to quit (or die).
> 
> So, if they enter the market, they will certainly have no problem getting members, but it would hardly 'decimate' the industry... and would likely have zero negative impact on a club like HCC, as their members would not be likely to be choosing between HCC and RC Club...  Plus, even if RC entered, and from that day forward, not a single person in the universe joined HCC, PE/UR, ER, etc., the members of those clubs would have no reason to start a mass exodus, as they would be able to continue to enjoy all the homes in their club portfolio; they just wouldn't be adding any new homes... Sure, they couldn't get their deposits back (since we are asuming that not a single person in th euniverse wants to join them once RC has a cllub), but hardly anyone is resigning the clubs now anyway, so the impact would be slight...



I believe that you are correct that if RC, or any of the other "big" players enter the market it will be at the top end.  This would NOT hurt HCC, it would HELP them because of the publicity of the DC concept.  The single biggest issue with DC sales is getting the consumer aware of the concept.  I know that HCC has an incredibly good close ratio once the consumer understands the advantages of DC membership.

There is no such thing as bad publicity for DCs, as the T&H bankruptcy has shown us!


----------



## PerryM

*First class...*



vineyarder said:


> IF RC were to enter the DC market, what makes you think that they would undercut other DC players?  If they were to enter the market, they would almost certainly do it at the high end ($4M homes & up) and would almost certainly pricethemselves higher than other DCs in that range (after all, you're getting Ritz service, etc.)  So they would probably charge a membership deposit of $500K or up... which would be the same 'smoke & mirrors' / unsecured loan as everyone else... Plus, there would be no reason for them to offer a better refund policy, so IF they enter the market, I wouldn't be surprised if their club had a 70% or 60% refund of the deposit... After all, their highly-coveted spa memberships have deposits that are 0% refund, and they have hundreds of people on the waitlist if someone should happen to quit (or die).
> 
> So, if they enter the market, they will certainly have no problem getting members, but it would hardly 'decimate' the industry... and would likely have zero negative impact on a club like HCC, as their members would not be likely to be choosing between HCC and RC Club...  Plus, even if RC entered, and from that day forward, not a single person in the universe joined HCC, PE/UR, ER, etc., the members of those clubs would have no reason to start a mass exodus, as they would be able to continue to enjoy all the homes in their club portfolio; they just wouldn't be adding any new homes... Sure, they couldn't get their deposits back (since we are asuming that not a single person in th euniverse wants to join them once RC has a cllub), but hardly anyone is resigning the clubs now anyway, so the impact would be slight...




My contention is that those folks who consider $400k+ "pocket change" are probably status conscious - they live in the fanciest part of their town, drive flashy cars, kids go to the flashy private schools, and may belong to flashy country clubs that are the envy of the upper crust.  They probably would rather have a Ritz or a St. Regis, or a Trump, anything with a flashy name.  Which of their friends has ever heard of ER or HCC or any of the current DCs - none.

If a flashy name enters the DC market they will be the envy of all those that stumble on DCs and thus could lead to a lessening of folks wanting the other DCs.

I don't think it would take much to upset a DC with 200 or less members and to then have some want to cash out and go with the flashy DC only to find that the 3 or 2 new members needed to get out may be very hard to come by.

But I'm just guessing here, I don't pretend to know what will happen - only that I believe the "Flash Name" will enter the fray and that's what I'd opt for if I'm still in the market for a DC then.

A good friend of mine is going to buy his first Bentley once his current Mercedes lease is up in January.  I know he would never buy anything but a name that he and all his friends knows to be first class.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

PerryM said:


> I believe the "Flash Name" will enter the fray and that's what I'd opt for if I'm still in the market for a DC then.



So are you a "flashy dude" or a "dress-down dude"?


----------



## PerryM

Steamboat Bill said:


> So are you a "flashy dude" or a "dress-down dude"?



Probably a flashy dud.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

PerryM said:


> Probably a flashy dud.



I am sure you mean Dude!!!!!


----------



## Steamboat Bill

Today is the big day and I am looking forward to these two events.

I asked a few friends (qualified, if you know what I mean) if they wanted to go with me as my wife is staying home with the kids to help with homework. 

However, several of my friends informed me that Friday is Yom Kippur - the most solemn of Jewish religious holidays and they were preparing for the holiday.

If I was Merrill Lynch or Exclusive Resorts, I would NOT have scheduled these events at this time...at least it was on Thursday, not Friday or Saturday.

Shalom ya all


----------



## PerryM

Steamboat Bill said:


> Today is the big day and I am looking forward to these two events.
> 
> I asked a few friends (qualified, if you know what I mean) if they wanted to go with me as my wife is staying home with the kids to help with homework.
> 
> However, several of my friends informed me that Friday is Yom Kippur - the most solemn of Jewish religious holidays and they were preparing for the holiday.
> 
> If I was Merrill Lynch or Exclusive Resorts, I would NOT have scheduled these events at this time...at least it was on Thursday, not Friday or Saturday.
> 
> Shalom ya all




More blunders ER?  Good grief.

I'm sure the next event will be scheduled for December 25.

P.S.
All of this sounds like something the second string of managers would do - is the first string in China or something?  No doubt staying at a Marriott or Westin or something much better.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

I am back home after an incredible evening. I will post details tomorrow as it would be too long to post tonight.

Everyone at ER was very professional and their presentation was first class all the way.

My one word impression...."Wow"


----------



## Steamboat Bill

*The Review*

The Merrill Lynch party was great. Lots of Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Bentleys, Austin Martins and many of them cost over $250k each. The best yacht was an 88 foot Ferretti that you could actually live on…just one small detail was the $7m price tag and docking fees. I can’t imagine what the fuel costs would be for a boat like this. I left early as I wanted to go to the ER event and did not want to be late.

I invited a good friend of mine to attend the ER event at the St Regis Resort with me. He owns a lot of expensive real estate on Atlantic Avenue in Delray Beach and likes to travel via the Ritz, Four Seasons, etc. I did not tell him anything about ER or TUG and simply told him that this was a destination club for high-end travel. He was immediately interested.

The St. Regis Resort was very nice and brand new….typical 5-star resort that should please everyone. Because I grew up in this area, I found the transformation from the old places like the Candy Store, Poop Deck, and Elbow Room to St Regis, W, and Trump an amazing (and much improved) change.

We were welcomed at the ballroom by the ER staff and everyone was dressed nice and serving drinks and appetizers. The food choices were very gourmet and upscale. I really loved the lobster bisque in small tea cups…I went back for seconds and thirds on that one!

We actually started to talk to the Marquis Jet reps as they service the Boca Raton airport that both myself and my friend live near. The bottom line is that you too can bypass the hassle of flying commercial for a $5,000 per hour on a private jet. This may seem expensive, but you can fit 7 people on the smallest plane and for short trips (less than 2 hours) it is actually a reasonable expense if you have the means. Three of my neighbors have their own planes and one of them is a Marquis member. I have not been bitten by the “got to have a private plane bug” but this summer was a complete hassle in every airport I visited and if this trend continues, I may seriously consider Marquis Jet. 

I also bumped into “Multiz321” a TUG user that PMed me for an invite. He and his wife were there and were very pleasant. The service of the staff at this party was the best as they probably had a 1:1 ratio of guests to staff. Once the xylophone music played, it was time to go into the presentation by Scott about the club. He reviewed the club, where they are at, and where they are going.

ER has $1b in current property and another $400m under contract. Their new properties look even more amazing than the current ones and their buying power is unmatched in the industry. ER is a unique club in the industry due to their buying power. They are now going after “economics of scale” by buying 10, 20, or 30 properties at a single location. Thus, the days of buying a single home at a single location are over. Also, ER is so powerful that real estate developers are approaching them “first” as they can make a quick sale of 10-30 homes pre-construction. This is smart as ER will always be getting the best prices. Thus, I have ZERO worry that ER will suffer the same fate as T&H….this is a very smart and savvy group of investors.

The fact of the matter is ER is NOT for average people and that’s ok. If you wonder why people will spend $1,500 per night in a club like this, when you can stay somewhere for much less, then you probably don’t fit their profile. I estimate that you need a net worth of $5-10m to be comfortable joining this club and most of them are probably NOT reading TUG. 

One of the highlights of the evening was when an ER member took the stage. He was a cool dude that lived in Boca in a 25,000 sq foot house and sent his kids to the same school as my kids. I immediately liked him. He was an original T&H member that choose to join ER rather than UR and really loves ER. For someone like him….ER is a dream come true. His stories of his ER travel really hit home and happy members like him will be the reason new people will want to join the club. His informal and unrehearsed presentation was more valuable than any fancy brochure or magazine ads.

My friend who attended the event with me started taking notes and asking a ton of questions…as I said, I didn’t prep him before the event….he really did not know what a DC was.  He really loved the concept of ER and wants to discuss joining with his wife. The one property that “sold him” over any other, was the five cabins on “The World”. My friend was considering buying a condo on a competing yacht and feels that joining ER will actually “SAVE money” as compared to buying a floating condo….go figure.

They then took us on a tour of one of the ER 3 bedroom suites which, of course, was very nice. I will simply say that this is the “good life” and if you can afford it will satisfy you in every way. After the tour, it was back to the reception for desert…awesome again and chatting with Scott.

For the record, Scott and everyone at ER are first class people and very hospitable. This was not a hard sell or even a sales pitch at all. It felt more like a “welcome to our home” or “welcome to our club” feel and if you are interested, then we can discuss details when you want. All in all, it was a great presentation that has piqued my interest in the club again.


----------



## LTTravel

Steamboat Bill said:


> The one property that “sold him” over any other, was the five cabins on “The World”. My friend was considering buying a condo on a competing yacht and feels that joining ER will actually “SAVE money” as compared to buying a floating condo….go figure.
> 
> .



ER will be honest with you and remember to tell your friend. "The World" is almost impossible to book. 3000 members and only 5 cabins and a daily fee. 75% of the cruising sites are not very desireable. Make sure he does not join just for "The World" but their other offerings are good.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

very interesting report 

also re the world - its only a 50% discount if you look at ~$1000/nt for ER + ER's new $450/nt fee for the world. total = ~$1500 = 50% of $3000 rental rate. ($2300 for first two pax + $700 for second two pax)

bill, id imagine your friend could get an incredible unit on the FS ship if he wanted to.


----------



## PerryM

*But did they have....*

So, Bill; the most burning question in my mind is did they have *pigs in a blanket*?  I just love those things.  How about a fondue?  5 layer bean dip?  Ritz crackers and cheese?  These are what the high rollers in St. Louis eat.  Then a great Two Buck Chuck wine from Trader Joes.

Sounds like ER knows what it wants to sell and who to sell it to.  I believe there are more than 1,000,000 Americans who are millionaires so they should be able to grow and grow.

P.S.

If ER owns $1 B in real estate they are as large as WorldMark - they have about $1 B in 5,000 condos worth $200,000 each.  This is truly amazing and why the timeshare folks and hotel chains should be looking to do the same exact thing.  Keep in mind that the fimeshare folks would now OWN the condos/homes and get a management fee to boot.


P.P.S.
My barber, Carl, who has cut my hair for 35 years now is a multi-millionaire.  He is a commercial real estate broker and cuts hair at the same time.  Carl is 72 and doesn't drive a Bently but owns a lot of real estate that he has bought over the years - all the while remaining a barber.  This is a vast untapped market for DC's - the millionaire small business owner who doesn't go to fancy parties.


----------



## jim23

As the only resident ER member, I'm glad to hear that you had a good experience at the St. Regis event.  Actually, I'm not officially a member yet - I just got off the waitlist and have my "orientation" next week.  For some reason they won't let me access the member website before my orientation.

It seems like people are down on ER in this forum, which is why I have been hesitant to post anything.  I stumbled on this website when I was doing my due diligence on the club and check it occasionally.  I get the sense that many of you think that they are arrogant and that the club does not offer good value.  I can only tell you that I've only had good interactions with the people there.  In terms of value, I don't know if I can comment on that until after my first trip.

Bill touched on something in his review that was a big selling point for us in joining the club, particularly because of the T&H debacle: the size of the club.  As the biggest DC by far, it should be much better protected from going under in a T&H-style event than any of its competitors.  In order for my wife and I to be comfortable with the DC model, we needed to have confidence in the club's solvency, which ER gave us much more than any other club.  Not to say that I think any of the other clubs are going under, but size helps a lot.  I think the T&H bankruptcy still weighs on the minds of a lot of prospective DC members.

With regards to the net worth of the average member being $5-10m - I guess then I'm a below average member.  But I'm still young and am working towards that end.


----------



## PerryM

jim23 said:


> As the only resident ER member, I'm glad to hear that you had a good experience at the St. Regis event.  Actually, I'm not officially a member yet - I just got off the waitlist and have my "orientation" next week.  For some reason they won't let me access the member website before my orientation.
> 
> It seems like people are down on ER in this forum, which is why I have been hesitant to post anything.  I stumbled on this website when I was doing my due diligence on the club and check it occasionally.  I get the sense that many of you think that they are arrogant and that the club does not offer good value.  I can only tell you that I've only had good interactions with the people there.  In terms of value, I don't know if I can comment on that until after my first trip.
> 
> Bill touched on something in his review that was a big selling point for us in joining the club, particularly because of the T&H debacle: the size of the club.  As the biggest DC by far, it should be much better protected from going under in a T&H-style event than any of its competitors.  In order for my wife and I to be comfortable with the DC model, we needed to have confidence in the club's solvency, which ER gave us much more than any other club.  Not to say that I think any of the other clubs are going under, but size helps a lot.  I think the T&H bankruptcy still weighs on the minds of a lot of prospective DC members.
> 
> With regards to the net worth of the average member being $5-10m - I guess then I'm a below average member.  But I'm still young and am working towards that end.



Jim,

Good grief don't let others here deter you from participating in TUG.  This is the New Media where folks get to present various sides in a debate that most of the time stays civil.

If you think we are wrong then tell us or show us another point of view.  If you don't participate we will never learn.


----------



## jim23

PerryM said:


> Jim,
> 
> Good grief don't let others here deter you from participating in TUG.  This is the New Media where folks get to present various sides in a debate that most of the time stays civil.
> 
> If you think we are wrong then tell us or show us another point of view.  If you don't participate we will never learn.



I know.  I have to learn not to be so sensitive.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

Jim

I am happy to see you return to TUG. The over riding theme last night was that Exclusive Resorts is a "Luxury" and "Lifestyle" purchase, not an investment, unless you consider fantastic vacations with your family and having lifelong memories an investment (like I do).

There are many different types of people in the world. 

People think I am crazy to stay in an expensive 2 bedroom on-site Disney property when I could stay in Kissimmee for $25 a night or swap for a no-name timeshare. 

I think some of my friends are crazy chartering a private plane and renting a suite on Peter Island or joining Trumps golf club for $300k when you can play on a ton of golf courses in Florida.

One of my best vacations was a private week-long catamaran charter with a captain and crew in the BVIs and that cost about $2k per day. 

On the other hand, I had fun camping in North Carolina and only spent $10 a day...but you get the message.


----------



## jim23

Bill:

It's funny, since I've joined ER, I've felt like I need to justify our membership to people who just don't understand spending all that money for something you don't own.  Bottom line, my wife and I just love going on luxury vacations, and that's where we want to spend our money.  We don't spend a lot of money on other things like expensive cars and country club memberships (although I used to be a golf addict and quit the game, but that's a story for another time...).  We now have a 1 1/2 year old daughter, and before she was born, the thought of joining a DC never crossed our minds.  However, after having gone on vacation with her and having to watch DVDs in the bathroom after she went to sleep at 7 PM, we decided that we needed another option for our vacations, particularly since we're planning on having at least one more kid.  We could always get 2 hotel rooms, but that would cost $1500 at the places we've stayed (Parrot Cay, One & Only Ocean Club, FS, RC, etc.), or we could rent, but it's a hassle to have to do research on rentals, not to mention the uncertainty about the condition of the unit.  When we heard about DCs, it seemed like such a natural fit.  To be able to get a beautiful house for basically the same price as 2 hotel rooms without the hassle of trying to find a rental really appealed to us.  And that's how we ended up as members of ER.


----------



## DosMasCervesos

jim23 said:


> However, after having gone on vacation with her and having to watch DVDs in the bathroom after she went to sleep at 7 PM...


Ha! And I thought we were the only one doing that.  For us it is normally having a glass of wine (or two) in the bathroom after the kids crash from a full day of activities.

That is what sparked my interest in timeshares, and now DCs. Hotel travel just doesn't work well (or isn't economical when you need multiple rooms) with kids-in-tow.

Matt


----------



## Steamboat Bill

jim23 said:


> It's funny, since I've joined ER, I've felt like I need to justify our membership to people who just don't understand spending all that money for something you don't own.



I agree as this applies to all DCs.

For the record (again)...I am a firm believer that the Destination Club industry is the BEST option for families with $10k-20k per year in disposable income to be spent on travel.

I have seen and tried all the alternatives. DCs may NOT be the best use of money or the best investment...it is just the best way to travel (IMHO). The fact that there are only 5,000 members worldwide and ER has 3,000 or those members, means that the future is very bright (for the entire industry...especially ER).

I have friends with large boats and they spend $200k or more per year just for the pleasure of having a nice boat (60-100 feet) that they only take out a few times per year. I think this is money wasted as I can charter a boat for much less. The best boat is a boat that is owned by your friend.

Lots of things compete for our discretionary dollars: jewelery, vacations, cars, boats, planes, clothes, entertainment, investments, etc. 

I put nice vacations that the entire family can enjoy near the top of my list.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

I think ER and all DCs are missing the boat when it comes to marketing DCs. I am not privy to any inside info on demographics, but the crowd at the ER party was  on the gray side and I think this may represent the current DC membership.

DCs need to market to "families with kids in elite private schools" as things move in trends there very fast. This is the ultimate keeping up with the Jones.

Here is a short list of the elite private schools in South Florida that charge over $20,000 per student per year.

Ransom Everglades
Gulliver
Carrollton
Saint Andrews
Palmer Trinity
North Borward Prep
Community School Naples
Miami Country Day
Pine Crest 
American Heritage

There may be more, but these are the ones I know about.

How do you target them....support their parents association by making a donation of a vacation to the silent auctions. That's what HCC did for me last year and it raised over $3,000 for the school and got them some nice exposure. This is a win-win situation.


----------



## LTTravel

jim23 said:


> It seems like people are down on ER in this forum, which is why I have been hesitant to post anything.




I have had interactions with several of the clubs. ER is superb and very high quality and I am sure the most financially secure. I am sure most of the other clubs are also, but they have superb service, selection, quality and financial strength and is my first choice in choosing a DC for myself. 
I have stated this before and I hate to be redundant, but a very important point in all of these clubs are the fine print. It is important that you know the fine details before chosing a destination club. It may or may not effect your decision, and may not effect you, but they are important to know.
For example:
With ER, you lose 20% the minute you send them the check. If you think that you have made a mistake, its too late. Quintess, for example, will refund 100% the first year and others have even better refund policies.
ER's increase in yearly dues is higher than the other clubs at CPI + 4.5% plus reset to market at ten years. This will make a *significant *difference in 5-10 years!
ER does not allow you to transfer ownership of the membership (except to your spouse) even to your children. If you die, your estate gets 80% of your membership fee and your children are allowed to rejoin the club at a 10% discount of the then current price, which may be double or triple what you paid, depending on how long you live. For example, if you paid $400,000 for a membership and you and your spouse die and the then current membership fee is $800,000. Your estate gets $320,000 and your children can get a new membership at a 10% discount or $720,000, costing them an additional $400,000 to maintain the membership. Other clubs allow you to will the membership without any fees or penalties. That is a huge difference. Many of the once in a lifetimes and the services provided while in house have additional fees, check these out. 

As long as you know and accept these, I think that ER is clearly the leader, has the greatest selection of homes. BUT READ THE FINE PRINT OF ALL THE CLUBS. Each one may have something that may bite you in the a-- at sometime. But ER's financial stability will not bite you as badly as Tanner and Haley did to their members.  
Not to just pick on ER, for example, UR does not include daily maid service and will charge you extra if you want it. I don't know what will happen after the merger because PE Platinum and Pinnacle do include daily maid service but PE Premiere does not. You would like to have daily maid service in a $3million home. Some of the DC's have a no tipping policies, others have recommended gratuities. Some charge a service charge on anything they book for you (even airport transfers, groceries, activities, etc) others not only don't charge a service fee but provide the service( such as airport transfers for free-Lusso) for free. 
I am surprised that when clubs compare themselves to others (especially the leader) they just say they have great service and homes and availability but they will never be able to compete against ER with those type of statements because all it takes is one look at there expansive portfolio and there is no comparison with the other clubs. They need to compare the FINE PRINT.


----------



## MULTIZ321

*ER 9/20/07 St. Regis Reception/Presentation*

My wife and I attended the ER Reception/Presentation as Steamboat Bill's guests.  It was fun to meet Bill in person and put a face to his great dynamic personality. I think Bill has been a fantastic addition to Tug and the Destination Club Forum (i.e., Non-traditional Interval Ownership) which he started and moderates has been a great source for broadening our horizons.

The St. Regis is a very elegant property - it's just a little north of the Marriott Beach Place Towers - with great beach and ocean views and easy street-level valet parking.  The Reception was on the 4th floor - in an area with floor to ceiling windows overlooking the beach/Atlantic Ocean. It was fun watching the wind surfers as we enjoyed gourmet snacks and top-shelf drinks from the open bar. My favorite was the dates stuffed with gorgonzola cheese.

 We moved into an adjacent meeting room for a low-kew presentation that was very professional and not at all high-pressure. ER's list of vacation properties is truly impressive. They also talked about additional properties  that will be included in the portfolio in the relatively near future.  Included among the attendees (I didn't count but I would guess between 20 to 30) were 2 members.  They asked one of the members to come up front and speak to the group.  His impromptu talk was fun and he's clearly a satisfied member. For those interested in the cruise ship World - he spoke of his family's trip on the World - and they all were very happy with the trip.

We then did a walk-through of one of the on-site ER 3 BR properties - certainly the wow factor and attention to detail and amenities was evident.  The furniture and decorations were a bit too modern for my wife and my tastes - but it wouldn't take long for us to enjoy a stay there. 

All in all it was a fun evening and an opportunity to see the new St. Regis and learn more about Exclusive Resorts.   Thanks Bill.

Richard


----------



## vineyarder

> a very important point in all of these clubs are the fine print. It is important that you know the fine details before chosing a destination club. It may or may not effect your decision, and may not effect you, but they are important to know.



Amen!  Having gorgeous homes in great locations with personalized concierge service is the most basic requirement in order to get into the DC game, but alot of the 'details' or 'fine print' is what determines which club is the best fit for a prospective member... In addition to the 'details' discussed by LTTravel, I'd add reservation flexibility (arrival and departure dates, number of nights bookable, how far in advance, holiday restrictions) and availability...


----------



## jim23

DosMasCervesos said:


> Ha! And I thought we were the only one doing that.  For us it is normally having a glass of wine (or two) in the bathroom after the kids crash from a full day of activities.
> 
> That is what sparked my interest in timeshares, and now DCs. Hotel travel just doesn't work well (or isn't economical when you need multiple rooms) with kids-in-tow.
> 
> Matt



Yeah, the vacation isn't quite as relaxing when you have to sneak around your room in the dark after 7 PM.  A few glasses of wine does ease the pain though... even if it is in the bathroom.


----------



## mjs

jim23 said:


> Yeah, the vacation isn't quite as relaxing when you have to sneak around your room in the dark after 7 PM.  A few glasses of wine does ease the pain though... even if it is in the bathroom.



Yeah, I remember watching  TV at night, yes I mean WATCHING, no sound, didnt want to wake up the kids.  AAHH, the good old days?


----------



## Steamboat Bill

One thing I forgot to post is how nice the ER sales brochures are.

The presentation of the thick booklet brochure is like nothing I have ever seen. The quality of the photos, quality of the paper, layout and design, and DVD definitely deserve to win some type of advertising award.

I suggest that ER enters their material in the next CLEO Award Competition or try for an ADDY award.

http://www.clioawards.com/home/index.cfm

http://www.aaf.org/default.asp?id=27


----------



## LTTravel

Steamboat Bill said:


> One thing I forgot to post is how nice the ER sales brochures are.
> 
> The presentation of the thick booklet brochure is like nothing I have ever seen. The quality of the photos, quality of the paper, layout and design, and DVD definitely deserve to win some type of advertising award.



Though their brochure is not quite as nice or thick, the Quintess Photos on the internet are excellent. Probably the only ones that come close to or surpass ER's.
The photos alone are a great selling point. A professional photographer is quite expensive and for UR/PE to send one to their 140 homes would cost them alot. But as they say, "a photo is worth 1000 words" and ER has great ones. If you look at the descriptions of some of their properties in Beaver Creek for example there are some as small as 1900 sq ft. The HCC property in Beaver Creek is ski in ski out and 2117 sq ft. The photos of the Beaver Creek property at HCC are some of their best, but somehow, ER has a way of making their homes look exceptional. Compare their Beaver Creek home photos (the largest one is 4800 sq ft) to the 7000 square foot home at DHH. The DHH photos are nice, but the ER photographer desires his fee. He has an incredible mastery of lighting and the wide angle lens.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

One thing I think all DCs should do better is have more photos of their properties online. They should also include a panoramic photo (have you ever seen those iPix photos www.ipix.com) that you can scroll around for each property and in each room. It would also be great if they could show the front and back yard of the properties.

In addition, each property should have an exact Google Earth map link so we can see how far (or close) things like the ski lift or beach really are.


----------



## travelguy

*Ski-in/Ski-out & Beach Front*



Steamboat Bill said:


> In addition, each property should have an exact Google Earth map link so we can see how far (or close) things like the ski lift or beach really are.



What!  You don't like my categorizations by throwing ski boots and beach chairs?


----------



## Kagehitokiri

bill, lusso does a great job with panoramic shots. theyre the model to follow IMHO.

edit - this thread now has both the most replies and the most views in this forum.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

This thread has officially become the MOST POPULAR thread on the Non-Traditional Interval Ownership forum.

We have had over 153 posts and over 3,327 thread views in about 10 days.

Thanks for everyone's input.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

Rich People are Funny

I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine that is "well above" the ER net worth sweet-spot and here is what he said.

"I want to travel when I want, to whenever I want and I don't want to think about restrictions, limitations, or getting shut out....I also don't want to plan 12 months ahead of when I want to go or be restricted to only 30 or so destinations."

For people like this, Destination Clubs, timeshares, fractional real estate, etc. are not a good option. They simply pay cash for hotels, condo rentals, home rentals, etc. 

Price is NOT even a consideration. 

They also like to see where "their friends are going" so they can tag along or have similar lunch conversations on what the best restaurants are at a particular world location.

I, for one, actually ENJOY planning a nice family vacation and Destination Clubs, timeshares are just tools that make my task MORE enjoyable.


----------



## vivalour

Steamboat Bill said:


> Rich People are Funny
> 
> I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine that is "well above" the ER net worth sweet-spot and here is what he said.
> 
> "I want to travel when I want, to whenever I want and I don't want to think about restrictions, limitations, or getting shut out....I also don't want to plan 12 months ahead of when I want to go or be restricted to only 30 or so destinations."
> 
> For people like this, Destination Clubs, timeshares, fractional real estate, etc. are not a good option. They simply pay cash for hotels, condo rentals, home rentals, etc.
> 
> Price is NOT even a consideration.
> .



I'll bet Warren Buffett wouldn't join --  on price consideration alone!!!


----------



## LTTravel

Steamboat Bill;397193I said:
			
		

> ,I for one, actually ENJOY planning a nice family vacation and Destination Clubs, timeshares are just tools that make my task MORE enjoyable.



I stumbled on this forum and was happy to find out that I am not alone in being obsessed with vacationing and planning vacations. (Everyone else thinks that I am nuts) The fact that there are a handful of people who contribute 90% to these forums clearly indicates the obsession, the interest and participation in multiple DC's and timeshares further confirms that. Writing on the forum 5-10 times daily only more so. 
I used to be (and still am) a workaholic. I don't drink, gamble, smoke or cheat. But I love to take nice vacations. I have a child with Aspergers (Autism spectrum) who also loves to travel. So I've given up touring Harvard, Yale and MIT for him and just plan vacations with him. Hopefully, finding something for him to do in the hospitality industry.  My goal is to win Mega Millions and belong to enough DC's to cover 365 days a year. I think that most of us on this forum enjoy planning and taking nice family vacations.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

LTTravel said:


> I used to be (and still am) a workaholic. I don't drink, gamble, smoke or cheat. But I love to take nice vacations.



Those sound like my traits.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

LTTravel said:


> I don't drink, gamble, smoke or cheat. .



I do all the above...


----------



## puffpuff

Steamboat Bill said:


> Those sound like my traits.


I was told such obsession is characteric of a class of people called "nomadic traveler".


----------

