# New survey out on award ticket availibility



## Carolinian (May 9, 2010)

http://www.smartertravel.com/blogs/...lalert&value=2010-05-07+00:00:00&u=SL5840D0EC

It is no surprise at all which two airlines are far at the bottom.


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## DVB42 (May 9, 2010)

The poll results are what I would expect. I have no experience with US Air but a lot with Delta. I made the one milliion mile level with Delta about 15 years ago. Up until that time Delta was amazing with their high level of service. The frequent flier program was great and very easy to use. Fast forward to today and they are on the bottom of the heap in just about everything. It was amazing and sad to watch their service sink to such low depths.


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## Cathyb (May 10, 2010)

*I'm surprised*



Carolinian said:


> http://www.smartertravel.com/blogs/...lalert&value=2010-05-07+00:00:00&u=SL5840D0EC
> 
> It is no surprise at all which two airlines are far at the bottom.



We almost exclusively use American Airline frequent flyer miles and was surprised they are so low!  We do have to jump thru hoops  getting up at 3AM to make that phone call on the right day -- but we do get our July 4 trip to Maui every year.

Did have an aggravating situation this week though.  Cost us $190+ to transfer ffmiles from my account to my DH.


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## urban5 (May 10, 2010)

*My experience*

Based on my experience I would reverse the Continental and American rankings, usually find what I need on AA, but CAL much more difficult for where I want to fly.


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## John Cummings (May 10, 2010)

We belong to the rewards programs with Southwest, Alaska, American, Continental, Jet Blue, and Mexicana. I never consider the rewards when picking our flights. Our first consideration is always schedule and comfort. Therefore we tend to not fly any one airline enough to get the free flights anymore.

We did attain elite status on Alaska and Southwest and received many free flights. That was when we lived in both the SF Bay area and San Diego and we frequently flew back and forth between the two. That was with Southwest. We attained that status with Alaska when we flew back and forth between Spokane, WA and our home in San Diego. We also had elite status with Reno Air because of our numerous flights between San Jose and Las Vegas and Reno. Reno Air was very good but was acquired by American.

From our personal experience with Southwest and Alaska, I agree with the ratings. They were both good but Southwest was the best. With Southwest you basically received rewards equal to a totally unrestricted full fare ticket and could be used anytime to any destination. We even received a $400 voucher from Southwest because we volunteered to be bumped. Now that is not unusual except we were flying on free SWA rewards tickets and were only delayed getting to our destination by 45 minutes.


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## bnoble (May 10, 2010)

> I never consider the rewards when picking our flights. Our first consideration is always schedule and comfort. Therefore we tend to not fly any one airline enough to get the free flights anymore.


I think this is wise.  Realistically, the value of FF miles, even at their best, is marginal for most people---anywhere between one and two cents per mile.

There are two different cases: those who fly more than 25K airmiles/year, and those who don't.  

If you fly more, then it makes sense to consolidate on one airline, because you can accrue status with that airline.  If you live in a hub city (as I do), your choice is made for you, because if you want to fly somewhere direct, you will be doing it on the "home court" airline to anywhere but a handful of other destinations.  If that doesn't hold, then you have a choice---but I wouldn't choose based on seat availability; reward seats are a relatively small benefit compared to other status perks: waiving luggage fees, getting choice seats like exit rows or forward aisles, and getting free upgrades to business or first class.  If you are flying this often, you might also be accruing enough miles through bonuses, promitions, etc. to take trips every so often---but probably not more than 2-3 round trip tickets every year unless you are >50K actual airmiles.  Even so, to me the upgrades have always been worth more than the free trips in real dollars.

If you aren't flying 25K/year, then I think John has exactly the right idea---choose based on price and convenience, ignoring loyalty programs.  It will take you more than a year to accrue even one round trip ticket, and the value in miles flown (at the relatively generous 2c/mi) is often less than the all-in price differences between carriers that compete on the route.

Note that there are some use cases that have points at more than 2c/mile, but these are usually "phantom savings", because they are for fare levels that you would not willingly pay.  I often see people claiming large payback rations for flying first class, for example, but those people would *never* pay that much for a flight to *anywhere* if it were their own money, so it's a bit of a sham.

Finally, I view award seats much in the same way I view timeshare exchange---if you have one very specific use in mind, you are likely to be disappointed, and it's never worth using one to visit Orlando.    But, you can often find places to redeem them, even on DL, for a reasonable payback.  For DL flyers, the floor is clearly 1c/mi, because those who hold the affinity card can use miles as cash for most bookings at that rate.


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## x3 skier (May 10, 2010)

bnoble said:


> Note that there are some use cases that have points at more than 2c/mile, but these are usually "phantom savings", because they are for fare levels that you would not willingly pay.  I often see people claiming large payback rations for flying first class, for example, but those people would *never* pay that much for a flight to *anywhere* if it were their own money, so it's a bit of a sham.



I agree with the rest of your post but would argue with this quoted part. Flying for free every year to the UK in Business Class is a real deal for me. I would probably not ever travel "across the pond" in coach and using some of my 1000000 or so miles I still have for either upgrades or actual Biz Class tickets is "priceless" to me. I never put a value in monetary figures on the miles and just use them to pamper myself and my wife. The most recent examples is for a pair of First Class upgrades to FL. I usually just go for an upgrade via the luck of the draw if I am traveling by myself, having lifetime status on both AA and DL but if we are traveling together, I use my bank of miles for a guaranteed two seats in front.

Since I am going to travel anyway, having the "phantom money in the bank" allows us to enjoy riding in the front of the bus. Whether it is worth $0.01 or $0.02 or $1000 a point is not relevant to me. 

Cheers


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## John Cummings (May 10, 2010)

I definitely agree with taking first class upgrades whenever possible. We always upgrade to first class every chance we get.


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## pointsjunkie (May 10, 2010)

we just got back from CA, flew first class with Delta and had a great experience. We used 45000 miles each and it was worth every mile. I also spread out my miles with Delta, american, Usair, all totaled and I have 960,000 to use for future flights, I also use southest and jetblue. going to vegas on jetblue with 5 free tickets and have 5 southwest flights waiting to be used in December. we do not travel for business so acquiring miles has become my hobby. love my hobby.


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## bnoble (May 10, 2010)

I'm not suggesting that the upgrades aren't a fine way to spend the miles---they certainly can be, and I've done it a few times.  But, I always look at folks who quote the "value per mile" by using those fares as their cost basis with a jaundiced eye.


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## winger (May 10, 2010)

bnoble said:


> ...
> 
> Note that there are some use cases that have points at more than 2c/mile, but these are usually "phantom savings", because they are for fare levels that you would not willingly pay.  I often see people claiming large payback rations for flying first class, for example, but those people would *never* pay that much for a flight to *anywhere* if it were their own money, so it's a bit of a sham....


Good post except for above quotation.

IMO, if I never fly first class or business class to some far away land (say, USA to Europe) b/c of the cost, hell, if I can do it using points, that is ONE HUGE TOPPING ON THE CAKE, if you asked me!!!  Actually, maybe you are right, that is NO PHANTOM SAVINGS, it is more of a PHANTOM *GAIN *!!!


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## Carolinian (May 11, 2010)

Until getting stuck with DL miles that had been involuntarily converted and devalued from NW miles, I never redeemed for less than 2 cents a mile, usually between 2 and 3 cents on US based carriers.  With NW and before that the pre-Robertson DL, summer TATL award redemptions at 50K miles were a breeze.  Not with the current DL program, however!  With the new DL, we felt lucky to be able to get rid of 75K miles for a shoulder season TATL ticket with bad connections (overnights both directions).

My best redemptions, however, are with BMI (airline code BD), better known as British Midland.  It is very easy to get 4500 or 6000 (depending on route) one way intra-Europe tickets on BMI or its *A partners.  TATL, even high season, is only 45,000 miles.  Austrian Airlines flights from my city to Vienna are very popular and especially on weekends often oversold, yet I seem to always be able to get them with 6K BMI miles, even when the cheaper fare buckets of paid tickets are sold out.  Every time I have redeemed for one of these flights, the paid fare on the date I did the redemption would have been from over $500 to over $600.  My tickets were 6K miles, so that is achieving a value of over 8 cents per mile, and on coach, not business of first class.  BMI also does great promotions.  I recently got 6K miles on a hotel promo for a one night stay in Romania, enough for one of those free tickets to Vienna.


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## Cathyb (May 11, 2010)

*John-a question*



John Cummings said:


> We belong to the rewards programs with Southwest, Alaska, American, Continental, Jet Blue, and Mexicana. I never consider the rewards when picking our flights. Our first consideration is always schedule and comfort. Therefore we tend to not fly any one airline enough to get the free flights anymore.
> 
> We did attain elite status on Alaska and Southwest and received many free flights. That was when we lived in both the SF Bay area and San Diego and we frequently flew back and forth between the two. That was with Southwest. We attained that status with Alaska when we flew back and forth between Spokane, WA and our home in San Diego. We also had elite status with Reno Air because of our numerous flights between San Jose and Las Vegas and Reno. Reno Air was very good but was acquired by American.
> 
> From our personal experience with Southwest and Alaska, I agree with the ratings. They were both good but Southwest was the best. With Southwest you basically received rewards equal to a totally unrestricted full fare ticket and could be used anytime to any destination. We even received a $400 voucher from Southwest because we volunteered to be bumped. Now that is not unusual except we were flying on free SWA rewards tickets and were only delayed getting to our destination by 45 minutes.



With Southwest -- isn't it true you cannot book 12 months out -- only 6 months?  If that is so, it would be difficult to get timeshares/hotels for places like New Orleans at Mardi Gras - right?


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## Carolinian (May 11, 2010)

Cathyb said:


> With Southwest -- isn't it true you cannot book 12 months out -- only 6 months?  If that is so, it would be difficult to get timeshares/hotels for places like New Orleans at Mardi Gras - right?



Not to mention timeshares in Hawaii, the Caribbean, or Europe, anytime!


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## winger (May 11, 2010)

Carolinian said:


> Not to mention timeshares in Hawaii, the Caribbean, or Europe, anytime!



Maybe book the TS first, *assuming *you can get the air tix ?


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## bnoble (May 11, 2010)

> Actually, maybe you are right, that is NO PHANTOM SAVINGS, it is more of a PHANTOM GAIN !!!


This is exactly right.  You aren't "saving money" with something if you wouldn't have bought it in the first place.

Here's another example.  I recently turned in some Amex rewards points for a new messenger bag.  The retail value of the bag I got was, let's say, $250.   But, that's not the "economic value" of the points I used, because the bag I *would* have bought had I been paying cash is one that cost only about half that.


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## John Cummings (May 11, 2010)

Cathyb said:


> With Southwest -- isn't it true you cannot book 12 months out -- only 6 months?  If that is so, it would be difficult to get timeshares/hotels for places like New Orleans at Mardi Gras - right?



I wouldn't know as I never book my flights that far ahead. I can't think of any reason why it is necessary to book flights so far in advance.

I don't use SWA nearly as much as before because often they do NOT have the best fares. Their service for seniors is not nearly as good as many other airlines. Even "GO" ( Mesa Airlines ) in Hawaii had much better customer service.

About the only time we ever use SWA now is to fly from Ontario, CA to Las Vegas as no other airline has non stop service on that route.

You need to check out the airlines when you are ready to fly as they change their flights, drop/add routes, etc. What was the best 6 months ago may not be the best now. When we went to New York City last time, Jet Blue flew from Ontario but they no longer do so I have to fly from either LAX or SAN when we go there this summer.


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## Carolinian (May 12, 2010)

winger said:


> Maybe book the TS first, *assuming *you can get the air tix ?



My point is that you can't use SWA to fly to timeshares in the Caribbean, Hawaii, or Europe because SWA doesn't fly there or have partners which do.


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## Timeshare Von (May 12, 2010)

Generally speaking as a past NWA frequent flier, I found it easier to get what I wanted, when I wanted it for the lowest level of miles before the merger/take-over by Delta.  The big difference has been getting to/from Hawaii on DL.

Over the past year (more like 9 or 10 mos), I have however, been able to get seats on the three trips I wanted via DL pretty much when I wanted and for the lowest level of miles . . . with some effort on my part.  The trips are:

Fairbanks (Aug 2010) for two . . . 42,500 miles per person (includes F/C to Fairbanks)

Anchorage (March 2010) for one . . . 25k miles

Anchorage (March 2011) for one . . . 25k miles

I'm sitting on over 110k miles with BA and rebuilding my DL account for a ticket to Nairobi in Aug 2011.  At this point, I'm looking at using the BA miles (100k were all for signing up for and using their Chase offer this past winter) for an upgrade to World Traveller Plus (108k miles + $950).  From what I have seen for availability throughout this year on my chosen route, it should be rather simple to do.

So for me, the miles program even on DL are working for most of my needs.  I'm not an uber elite member (just achieve silver status again on DL after losing it with NWA in 2008 due to inactivity because of a new job w/less travel).  I want to keep the elite silver status with DL mainly to avoid the baggage fees, as long as they keep that perk.  The upgrades are nice, but I haven't had many of them recently so that has become a lesser factor than in the past when I was with NWA (elite gold) and always seemed to get upgraded.


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## Carolinian (May 12, 2010)

Domestic upgrades are a nice perk of elite status.  As a DL gold medalliion back in the pre- Rob Borden days at DL, I used to get them about 30% of the time.  After Borden's antics that degraded DL's program, I comped my elite status over to NW, and at NW only ever had one domestic segment not upgrade.  Upgrades for NW elites were great!  With the DL takeover, I comped again, this time to CO, and so far I am 3 for 3 on domestic segment upgrades on CO, which somewhat surprised me as I had heard CO was not nearly as good as NW on upgrades.  Maybe I have just been lucky so far.  But it has been misery trying to spend my old NW miles that turned into pumpkins - DL miles - for any ticket worth having.  And if award travel on DL starts anywhere outside the US, as mine does working in Europe, DL pops you with an additional ''foreign origin surcharge'' junk fee of $200+, something no other US-based airline has.




Timeshare Von said:


> Generally speaking as a past NWA frequent flier, I found it easier to get what I wanted, when I wanted it for the lowest level of miles before the merger/take-over by Delta.  The big difference has been getting to/from Hawaii on DL.
> 
> Over the past year (more like 9 or 10 mos), I have however, been able to get seats on the three trips I wanted via DL pretty much when I wanted and for the lowest level of miles . . . with some effort on my part.  The trips are:
> 
> ...


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## bnoble (May 12, 2010)

> I want to keep the elite silver status with DL mainly to avoid the baggage fees, as long as they keep that perk.


If you have one of their AMEX affinity cards, you'll get one bag free for each person on your PNR (up to 10 I think) starting June 1st.


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## Timeshare Von (May 12, 2010)

bnoble said:


> If you have one of their AMEX affinity cards, you'll get one bag free for each person on your PNR (up to 10 I think) starting June 1st.



Yep I have the AmExp business plantinum card but will probably cancel it before the first year renewal.  I've not been impressed with their customer service and now that I've read ALL of the fine print on the free companion ticket, I don't know that it's worth the $150 renewal fee.


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## DVB42 (May 13, 2010)

The Wall Street Journal has a section on this same poll referenced by Carolina except it includes information on foreign carrier FF programs in addition to the US carriers. AS I would expect, Delta and US Air are still at the bottom.


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