# Carnival Cruise Line threatens to remove its ships from US home ports to sail elsewhere



## MULTIZ321 (Apr 6, 2021)

Carnival Cruise Line threatens to remove its ships from US home ports to sail elsewhere.










						Carnival Cruise Line threatens to remove its ships from US home ports to sail elsewhere
					

Carnival Cruise Line threatened to move its ships out of U.S. waters Tuesday but the CDC is committed to its phased approach to restarting sailing.



					www.usatoday.com
				





Richard


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## geist1223 (Apr 6, 2021)

Good riddance.


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## Ken555 (Apr 6, 2021)

Bbye!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Synergy (Apr 6, 2021)

I'm a big fan of cruising, and even I find this 'threat' laughable.  I mean, I'd probably sail from elsewhere in the meantime if I were Carnival, but it seems obvious that as soon as they're allowed back, they'll be back.


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 6, 2021)

Some of these responses are so silly. Royal Caribbean and NCL have already said they are going to sail from other locations. What is a company to do when the CDC is a bunch of [pejorative term redacted]  and really sticking it to the cruise lines for no good reason?

Royal already has plans to do week long cruises from St Martin, Nassau, and Bermuda.


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## Passepartout (Apr 6, 2021)

It isn't their choice. NO cruise ships are allowed to arrive in, or depart from ANY US ports. When the powers that be feel that cruising can be done safely, they'll be back. But for now, Take a chill pill!


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 6, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> It isn't their choice. NO cruise ships are allowed to arrive in, or depart from ANY US ports. When the powers that be feel that cruising can be done safely, they'll be back. But for now, Take a chill pill!



But they can sail from other ports and many cruisers have no problems flying to other ports to take a cruise. No different flying from St Louis to Orlando or St Martin.


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## Passepartout (Apr 6, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> Some of these responses are so silly. Royal Caribbean and NCL have already said they are going to sail from other locations. What is a company to do when the CDC is a bunch of aholes and really sticking to the cruise lines for *no good reason*?


Umm. Cruise lines don't exactly have a great track record of keeping their crews and guests healthy. Sounds like 'good reason' to me.


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## PigsDad (Apr 6, 2021)

Let's see.  Hotels can be open.  Restaurants can be open.  Pools can be open.  But a floating hotel / restaurant / pool can't.  Seems like the cruise companies have been bending over backwards trying to accommodate the authorities and the CDC to no avail.

I feel sorry for all those employees who have been out of work for over a year.  Must be nice to sit here in our cushy homes and scoff, wave Bbye and chant good riddance at those who want to go back to work to support their families.  But I'm sure there are "good reasons". 

Kurt


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## am1 (Apr 6, 2021)

I would flip the script and tell them if they leave do not come back.


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## CO skier (Apr 7, 2021)

MULTIZ321 said:


> Carnival Cruise Line threatens to remove its ships from US home ports to sail elsewhere.


They may not be citizens of the US, but they can certainly vote with their feet propellers.


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## SmithOp (Apr 7, 2021)

You mean all those ships that are registered in other countries to avoid more stringent US safety, labor, and environmental laws?


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 7, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> Umm. Cruise lines don't exactly have a great track record of keeping their crews and guests healthy. Sounds like 'good reason' to me.



Oooooo......this sounds fun. As someone who has completed 30 cruises on 7 different lines I would love for you to please elaborate on your opinion. What kind of track record are we talking about?


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## pedro47 (Apr 7, 2021)

Have anyone watch on television The Last Cruise a HBO Special.?

Scary. IMHO


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## bbodb1 (Apr 7, 2021)

SmithOp said:


> You mean all those ships that are registered in other countries to avoid more stringent US safety, labor, and environmental laws?


Exactly!


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## AJCts411 (Apr 7, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> Oooooo......this sounds fun. As someone who has completed 30 cruises on 7 different lines I would love for you to please elaborate on your opinion. What kind of track record are we talking about?




Look here for starters.    https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/yellowbook/2020/travel-by-air-land-sea/cruise-ship-travel


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## AnnaS (Apr 7, 2021)

pedro47 said:


> Have anyone watch on television The Last Cruise a HBO Special.?



Yes, I saw it.

Scary.  Can't even imagine being on the ship that long and not knowing too many details at first about anything, can medical handle the number of people on the ship - even the doctor got sick .

We love cruising but we are won't be ready to even think about booking a cruise for a little while.  We will travel here in the US for now.  For any future cruises too, we will make sure we always get a balcony (sometimes we get ocean view/window).


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## bbodb1 (Apr 7, 2021)

Let's also ask this question - while cruise lines do indeed bring business to and through U.S. Ports, how much revenue and taxes do they produce for United States interests above, beyond and separate from the cargo related activities?  I think it is fair to conclude that cruise lines might be held in a higher (more positive) light if their connections to the United States were stronger.


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 7, 2021)

AJCts411 said:


> Look here for starters.    https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/yellowbook/2020/travel-by-air-land-sea/cruise-ship-travel



Every disease listed there can be picked up from anywhere by anyone. Passeparout seems to have a special grievance specifically against cruise ships making a claim effectively that they are unsafe or unhealthy. I would like for him/her to post what info she has to back up such a claim. As I stated earlier, after 30 cruises I have never had any kind of illness aboard a ship. I have gotten sick a couple of times in my 32 year timesharing span so maybe we should consider timesharing to not have a great health track record (yes, I'm being facetious but I can't stand when people throw out such ridiculous and slanderous statements with no proof whatsoever). 

So again, @Passepartout, I ask you to show documentation that backs up your statement that cruise ships "don't have a great track record of keeping their guests and crew healthy".


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 7, 2021)

bbodb1 said:


> Let's also ask this question - while cruise lines do indeed bring business to and through U.S. Ports, how much revenue and taxes do they produce for United States interests above, beyond and separate from the cargo related activities?  I think it is fair to conclude that cruise lines might be held in a higher (more positive) light if their connections to the United States were stronger.



Hmmm, US flights to get to and the cruise, hotels for stays before and after the cruise, food purchased prior to and after the cruise, rental cars to see the local area before and after, food/toiletries/gift merchandise/etc purchased by the cruise ship to replenish stock, fuel so the ship can actually move, port charges and taxes, terminal rental for embarkation/disembarkation......oh, and and wages for all of the employees operating all of those things. That's the revenue they produce (and then some). North America had over 14 million cruise passengers in 2019. Yea, with the money they spend before and after the cruise and what the cruise line spends themselves, that's a couple of bucks here and there.


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## Passepartout (Apr 7, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> So again, @Passepartout, I ask you to show documentation that backs up your statement that cruise ships "don't have a great track record of keeping their guests and crew healthy".


Okey Dokey. You asked. COVID-19 pandemic on cruise ships - Wikipedia  This outlines just Coronavirus on cruise ships starting with Diamond Princess being quarantined in Yokohama for 4 months and 14 passengers dying of the disease as well as several other examples. Including:

As of 2 May 2020, over 40 cruise ships have had confirmed positive cases of coronavirus on board. The last cruise ship with passengers aboard during the first wave of the pandemic, _Artania_, docked at its home port with its last eight passengers on 8 June 2020.[a][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][_excessive citations_] In addition, over 40,000 crew members remained on cruise ships, some in isolation, as of mid-June 2020.[11] Many are unable to be repatriated because cruise lines refuse to cover the cost of doing so,[12][13] and because countries have different and changing rules. The condition is stressful to many employees.[14] Multiple suicides have been reported.[15]


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 7, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> Okey Dokey. You asked. COVID-19 pandemic on cruise ships - Wikipedia  This outlines just Coronavirus on cruise ships starting with Diamond Princess being quarantined in Yokohama for 4 months and 14 passengers dying of the disease as well as several other examples. Including:
> 
> As of 2 May 2020, over 40 cruise ships have had confirmed positive cases of coronavirus on board. The last cruise ship with passengers aboard during the first wave of the pandemic, _Artania_, docked at its home port with its last eight passengers on 8 June 2020.[a][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][_excessive citations_] In addition, over 40,000 crew members remained on cruise ships, some in isolation, as of mid-June 2020.[11] Many are unable to be repatriated because cruise lines refuse to cover the cost of doing so,[12][13] and because countries have different and changing rules. The condition is stressful to many employees.[14] Multiple suicides have been reported.[15]



Let's see. Cruise ships have been sailing for well over 100 years. The Titanic went down in 1912 and yet you want to use an unknown disease (at the time) as the basis for cruise lines running unhealthy ships? Was there an ability to test or vaccinate those people prior to a cruise in 2020? Nope. Now, if you brought up norovirus (created by passengers, not the cruise industry and norovirus can be gotten in many places) you might have had an argument or even something along the lines of the Titanic crash (which was actually the fault of the cruise line versus the fault of a passenger's poor hygiene and manners) but you bring up a disease in which no one (so the Chinese say) knew about and then blame the cruise lines? So for those who got the disease at Publix, is that because of Publix's poor health track record or because some obnoxious customer sneezer all over everyone??

I get it, you don't like to cruise for whatever reason. No need to be slanderous about it though. Just say you hate cruise lines and be done with it. The cruise industry had no knowledge of what was about to happen just like the airline industry who probably brought the disease into the US had no knowledge they were transporting someone with the disease.


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## Passepartout (Apr 7, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> I get it, you don't like to cruise for whatever reason. No need to be slanderous about it though. Just say you hate cruise lines and be done with it. The cruise industry had no knowledge of what was about to happen just like the airline industry who probably brought the disease into the US had no knowledge they were transporting someone with the disease.


Listen, I cruise often, and have for 40 years. I currently have 2 booked for this year. Don't be accusing me of slander, or 'hating' this or any other industry. So go crawl back under your rock and watch your accusations. By the way, I happen to LIKE fried shrimp, but prefer camarones in ceviche cooked in lime juice.

Jim


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## Synergy (Apr 7, 2021)

I am an avid cruiser.  Many dozens of cruises out of Florida over the past twenty years.  If prices and offerings are even close to what they were pre-plague, we'll definitely be back onboard sooner rather than later.  I expect us to cruise in September, more than 18 months since our last cruise. Now that we are vaccinated and data is finally saying that we are unlikely to be infected or transmit this virus, it's just a matter of time.  

All that said... I thought it was accepted fact that cruise ships are ideal environments to pass around easily communicable diseases.  I really believed that everyone with an ounce of sense knew this and had decided whether or not to cruise based on their risk tolerance.  Under normal circumstances, we are willing to take the risks - others may not be, or just don't think the experience justifies any increased risks.  Pretending that cruising doesn't come with known risks is just as silly as someone believing that cruising shouldn't exist because it doesn't suit them.  

Further, on that list of places that cruise money gets spent, I'd be really interested in seeing how much of that gets spent in the US.  Cruise lines have perfected the art of cost cutting, and one of the ways they do that is by running as little as they can under the US umbrella.  There's something to be said for the fact that the cruise industry might find more sympathy to their plight if they weren't so invested in foreign flag operations.


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## AndySamuels (Apr 7, 2021)

When people are willing to assume the risk the cruise lines should be able to sail. Everything in life carries risk.


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## am1 (Apr 7, 2021)

AndySamuels said:


> When people are willing to assume the risk the cruise lines should be able to sail. Everything in life carries risk.


And who covering the downside of it all?  Should a thousand or more people housed together be let to roam free on a tiny island with insufficient medical care?  Even if the islands/places want/need the tourists is it the right thing to do as a company and passenger?


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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> As I stated earlier, after 30 cruises I have never had any kind of illness aboard a ship.



In the last ~6 years I have been on about a dozen cruises. I have been sick on about 30% of those cruises, and have more than several times visited the ship doctor (and have the travel insurance claims to prove it!). I still cruise, but I don’t give them a pass on cleanliness. 

A few years ago I was on a cruise from Hong Kong to Sydney, and we had so many cases of Noro on board that Australia almost didn't let us disembark. On day of disembarking, they did a thorough cleaning even before we left... here's a pic of my (wonderful) steward as she prepared to clean (again). 

You may not have become ill on cruises, but it is an incontrovertible fact that many, many do.


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 7, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> Listen, I cruise often, and have for 40 years. I currently have 2 booked for this year. Don't be accusing me of slander, or 'hating' this or any other industry. So go crawl back under your rock and watch your accusations. By the way, I happen to LIKE fried shrimp, but prefer camarones in ceviche cooked in lime juice.
> 
> Jim



Reported.


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 7, 2021)

Synergy said:


> I am an avid cruiser.  Many dozens of cruises out of Florida over the past twenty years.  If prices and offerings are even close to what they were pre-plague, we'll definitely be back onboard sooner rather than later.  I expect us to cruise in September, more than 18 months since our last cruise. Now that we are vaccinated and data is finally saying that we are unlikely to be infected or transmit this virus, it's just a matter of time.
> 
> All that said... I thought it was accepted fact that cruise ships are ideal environments to pass around easily communicable diseases.  I really believed that everyone with an ounce of sense knew this and had decided whether or not to cruise based on their risk tolerance.  Under normal circumstances, we are willing to take the risks - others may not be, or just don't think the experience justifies any increased risks.  Pretending that cruising doesn't come with known risks is just as silly as someone believing that cruising shouldn't exist because it doesn't suit them.
> 
> Further, on that list of places that cruise money gets spent, I'd be really interested in seeing how much of that gets spent in the US.  Cruise lines have perfected the art of cost cutting, and one of the ways they do that is by running as little as they can under the US umbrella.  There's something to be said for the fact that the cruise industry might find more sympathy to their plight if they weren't so invested in foreign flag operations.



Any large gathering of people is a place where diseases can be communicated. Airplanes, buses, concerts, large parties, the list goes on. Sure, it's a risk just like all the other risks we take in life but cruising is no more of a risk than being in one of the other areas where it is easier to transmit a disease.


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 7, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> In the last ~6 years I have been on about a dozen cruises. I have been sick on about 30% of those cruises, and have more than several times visited the ship doctor (and have the travel insurance claims to prove it!). I still cruise, but I don’t give them a pass on cleanliness.
> 
> A few years ago I was on a cruise from Hong Kong to Sydney, and we had so many cases of Noro on board that Australia almost didn't let us disembark. On day of disembarking, they did a thorough cleaning even before we left... here's a pic of my (wonderful) steward as she prepared to clean (again).
> 
> ...



I don't deny some people become sick on a cruise but people become sick almost anywhere. Pass around a bug at school, at work, on a plane.......the list goes on. And getting sick there is just like getting sick anywhere else, because a careless person or people do what they aren't supposed to be doing. A cruise ship, just like anywhere else, can't monitor every single person's actions 100% of the time. If anyone is going to call out cruise lines as a health risk they need to call out every single other place that has a gathering of more than one person.


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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> I don't deny some people become sick on a cruise but people become sick almost anywhere. Pass around a bug at school, at work, on a plane.......the list goes on. And getting sick there is just like getting sick anywhere else, because a careless person or people do what they aren't supposed to be doing. A cruise ship, just like anywhere else, can't monitor every single person's actions 100% of the time. If anyone is going to call out cruise lines as a health risk they need to call out every single other place that has a gathering of more than one person.



This is the typical response I have read for years on this topic from those whom are cruise fanatics. There are inherent differences between a cruise ship, where we stay for days or weeks at a time, compared to any of the other venues you mentioned. Perhaps you should reconsider while trying to be objective. 

I would like nothing more than for cruises to resume operations safely. Given their history and the current uncertainty of Covid implications, I do not trust the cruise industry to put the health of cruisers and crew ahead of profits.


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 7, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> This is the typical response I have read for years on this topic from those whom are cruise fanatics. There are inherent differences between a cruise ship, where we stay for days or weeks at a time, compared to any of the other venues you mentioned. Perhaps you should reconsider while trying to be objective.
> 
> I would like nothing more than for cruises to resume operations safely. Given their history and the current uncertainty of Covid implications, I do not trust the cruise industry to put the health of cruisers and crew ahead of profits.
> 
> ...



I don't know about you or anyone else but when I cruise, I'm rarely around strangers for more than an hour unlike the guy hacking his lungs out next to me on an 11 hour flight from Germany. So maybe it's the "typical" response because it's an accurate response and you're not looking at the big picture correctly. The longest I might be within 6 feet of a stranger on ship is for probably the hour or so spent at dinner with strangers at our table (shared table). How long do you sit/stand next to strangers on a cruise ship?? Also something to think about, on a cruise ship one is usually out on deck in the open air. Can't roll down the window of an aircraft for some fresh air. I would take the risk of taking a cruise over an aircraft flight 100 times over.


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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> I don't know about you or anyone else but when I cruise, I'm rarely around strangers for more than an hour unlike the guy hacking his lungs out next to me on an 11 hour flight from Germany. So maybe it's the "typical" response because it's an accurate response and you're not looking at the big picture correctly. The longest I might be within 6 feet of a stranger on ship is for probably the hour or so spent at dinner with strangers at our table (shared table). How long do you sit/stand next to strangers on a cruise ship?? Also something to think about, on a cruise ship one is usually out on deck in the open air. Can't roll down the window of an aircraft for some fresh air. I would take the risk of taking a cruise over an aircraft flight 100 times over.



Yeah...this is how the conversation usually goes with a cruise fanatic. Sorry, I’m not going to engage any further. 


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## Gypsy65 (Apr 7, 2021)

Open the cruise lines up with the understanding that you cruise at your own risk
Which is what we have done anyways

if I’m not afraid to cruise and neither are others on the boat then who cares?

If those locked down are afraid  to board then wait your turn
Maybe have a medicated cruise and non medicated

It’s total BS who gets to decide essential or not
Look at f ing Walmart 
It looks like Disney World 

Maybe a vaca is essential for those who need a break from the nut jobs or just jobs


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 7, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> Yeah...this is how the conversation usually goes with a cruise fanatic. Sorry, I’m not going to engage any further.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



So you don't even know my first name but you know I'm a "cruise fanatic". Must be a heck of a crystal ball you have there to ignore common sense information.


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 7, 2021)

Gypsy65 said:


> Open the cruise lines up with the understanding that you cruise at your own risk
> Which is what we have done anyways
> 
> if I’m not afraid to cruise and neither are others on the boat then who cares?
> ...



Both Royal and NCL have stated that on their cruises starting outside the US in July that all passengers 18 and above as well as all crew have to be vaccinated. I personally have no issue with that and even got my J&J shot last month just so I could start cruising when the time arrives. I would have probably cruised without being vaccinated (just as I cruised without ever getting a flu shot) if that had been an option but it seems most major cruise lines are going in that direction so I figured I'd go ahead and get it. 

Carnival hasn't stated one way or the other yet about requiring vaccinations.


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## Gypsy65 (Apr 7, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> In the last ~6 years I have been on about a dozen cruises. I have been sick on about 30% of those cruises, and have more than several times visited the ship doctor (and have the travel insurance claims to prove it!). I still cruise, but I don’t give them a pass on cleanliness.
> 
> A few years ago I was on a cruise from Hong Kong to Sydney, and we had so many cases of Noro on board that Australia almost didn't let us disembark. On day of disembarking, they did a thorough cleaning even before we left... here's a pic of my (wonderful) steward as she prepared to clean (again).
> 
> ...



30%
really?

holy crap

I am 56. And have been sick literally maybe 4x

I don’t lick doorknobs or share drinks but I see others who get sick all the damn time

I think some people just get sick a lot and some don’t

I also think it’s the same with covid
You are either going to get it or not
Either going to have major complications or not
I have been all across the USA the past 1.5 years
We have had over 12 separate vacation stays and no issues whatsoever


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## amycurl (Apr 7, 2021)

I love how someone who joined TUG a few months ago (and has not paid the member fees) decides to attack @Passepartout who has made his love of cruising well-known on this site over the years, and who is also known as a thoughtful, reasonable poster. If only this person had read enough of the threads over time to realize that.
*smdh*


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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> So you don't even know my first name but you know I'm a "cruise fanatic". Must be a heck of a crystal ball you have there to ignore common sense information.



Based on your posts any commentary on any criticism of the cleanliness and health of cruise passengers...yup. 

Your first name isn’t Fry? 


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## Ken555 (Apr 7, 2021)

Gypsy65 said:


> 30%
> really?
> 
> holy crap
> ...



Tell us more about how I shouldn’t have been sick the number of times I was on cruises. And, believe it or not, I’m not licking doorknobs either. It’s not like I went on those trips hoping to get sick. I was simply illustrating that people get sick on cruises, since we have someone here who believes they are as clean as [insert your preferred industry here]. 

Once again, I enjoy cruises. I even have five booked from October 2021 thru November 2022, though I now doubt if I will be comfortable with them (these are all international cruises to/from Europe and South America and at the moment I doubt Brazil will be safe to visit anytime soon). It’s sad, but I feel it’s important to state this since often the cruise fanatics will attack those who post anything critical of the cruise industry by questioning if they even cruise. Well, I cruise, I spend a lot with the industry, I enjoy it, I try not to get sick, and I know there is no way the cruise ships believe in protecting the health of the passengers and crew ahead of profits. Their attempt to restart cruising early and often is just another example of how they are unable to separate the health of their crew and passengers and their need to restart operations. 


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## Passepartout (Apr 7, 2021)

amycurl said:


> I love how someone who joined TUG a few months ago (and has not paid the member fees) decides to attack @Passepartout who has made his love of cruising well-known on this site over the years, and who is also known as a thoughtful, reasonable poster. If only this person had read enough of the threads over time to realize that.


Thanks, Amy. Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but seldom know that they would be taken more seriously if they address the issue, than when they attack the messenger. As you noted this is a TIMESHARE USER's Group, and travel related, side issues, like cruising, can be discussed, but are tangential to the core of the group.


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## Gypsy65 (Apr 8, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> Tell us more about how I shouldn’t have been sick the number of times I was on cruises. And, believe it or not, I’m not licking doorknobs either. It’s not like I went on those trips hoping to get sick. I was simply illustrating that people get sick on cruises, since we have someone here who believes they are as clean as [insert your preferred industry here].
> 
> Once again, I enjoy cruises. I even have five booked from October 2021 thru November 2022, though I now doubt if I will be comfortable with them (these are all international cruises to/from Europe and South America and at the moment I doubt Brazil will be safe to visit anytime soon). It’s sad, but I feel it’s important to state this since often the cruise fanatics will attack those who post anything critical of the cruise industry by questioning if they even cruise. Well, I cruise, I spend a lot with the industry, I enjoy it, I try not to get sick, and I know there is no way the cruise ships believe in protecting the health of the passengers and crew ahead of profits. Their attempt to restart cruising early and often is just another example of how they are unable to separate the health of their crew and passengers and their need to restart operations.
> 
> ...



I agree people get sick on cruises and at walmarts

My point is that some people. Cruisers or the Walmart crowd just get sick a lot more often than most people

I know a lot of people that like myself just don’t ever get sick but I also know a lot who are sick so often I’m amazed they can hold down a job

Is it genes? Being too clean or sterile like wiping all germs away, the good and bad?

Not sure what the reason is but in my personal experience the ones who are sick a lot are always the same people and ones I actually choose to have anything much to do with


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 8, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> Based on your posts any commentary on any criticism of the cleanliness and health of cruise passengers...yup.
> 
> Your first name isn’t Fry?
> 
> ...



And based on your commentary of nothing but criticism it seems you're a cruise hater. But your hated seems to be based on an irrational fear. Disney offers the exact same type of environment (lots of people walking around mostly outdoors and sometimes cooped up on a ride or in line for an hour) as a cruise does. Do you not think Disney and other theme parks have the same risks?

I do love Futurama.


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 8, 2021)

amycurl said:


> I love how someone who joined TUG a few months ago (and has not paid the member fees) decides to attack @Passepartout who has made his love of cruising well-known on this site over the years, and who is also known as a thoughtful, reasonable poster. If only this person had read enough of the threads over time to realize that.
> *smdh*



I think you need to reread this thread from the beginning to see who started "attacking" who first. Or do you think anyone has the right to tell anyone else here effectively to shut up because they have a differing opinion? If you or others are okay with that then maybe I'm the one in the wrong place and I have no problem slipping out the back door.


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## Talent312 (Apr 8, 2021)

Gypsy65 said:


> I agree people get sick on cruises and at Walmarts...
> Cruisers or the Walmart crowd just get sick a lot more often than most people.



What about cruisers at Walmart? ... or Walmart shoppers on cruises?
Wouldn't that almost be a guarantee illness?  <kidding>

As for hospitals, one doc treating my DW said:
"I'd want to leave ASAP. This is where all the sick people are."

.


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## AndySamuels (Apr 8, 2021)

IMO as a society we are trending towards totalitarian dictatorship by majority opinion. Which is extremely ironic: this nation was founded on the principle of personal freedom. Hopefully more people will realize that our freedoms are being eroded more rapidly by the day by fear mongering in the media.

If people want to smoke: assuming the risk of illness: that is OK.

If people want to drink: assuming the risk of illness: that is OK.

If people want to drive a car: assuming bodily harm to themselves and other: that is OK.

If people want to become obese by excessive consumption of unhealthy food: that is OK.

If people want to cruise: assuming risk of illness: that is not OK?

Anyone see a discrepancy? I do.

Alcohol, sugar and smoking probably kill more people and cost society more annually than COVID but nobody points this out. Another example of group think extremism I think.


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## Ken555 (Apr 8, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> And based on your commentary of nothing but criticism it seems you're a cruise hater. But your hated seems to be based on an irrational fear. Disney offers the exact same type of environment (lots of people walking around mostly outdoors and sometimes cooped up on a ride or in line for an hour) as a cruise does. Do you not think Disney and other theme parks have the same risks?
> 
> I do love Futurama.



Nope, wrong again. How many times must I post that I currently have five booked cruises and have been on numerous cruises in recent years? It makes me a “cruise hater” to point out obvious issues with your argument that cruises are clean and safe, and healthy? Ha! I’m just being realistic...  and I enjoy cruising, or else I wouldn’t be booked on more! This thread hasn’t encouraged any positive commentary, but you’re also new to TUG so you haven’t seen my past posts on this topic.

Note that you haven’t made a single comment on my earlier post re the cruise I was on where Australia almost didn’t allow us to disembark because we had a very high level of Noro on board. I even posted a pic of my steward in her outfit ready to clean! Nope, you just ignored that and continue to post commentary about how safe cruising is, and now attack me as a “hater”. You need to read reports on cruising from sources other than biased marketing sites. If you won’t believe a picture of a steward wearing a mask, gloves and protective gear due to a virus on board, it’s clear you have no objectivity on this topic.

Even with my history on cruises and recognition of the reality of health related concerns, I still have five cruises booked as of today! Try to call me a hater again and you lose all credibility...that’s really just hilarious. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ken555 (Apr 8, 2021)

AndySamuels said:


> IMO as a society we are trending towards totalitarian dictatorship by majority opinion.



It seems you have forgotten the USA is a republic, and what that means. Regardless if you like it or not, the minority is not intended to rule. And... if you continue with this theme you’ll just get this thread locked.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## AndySamuels (Apr 8, 2021)

Another example: freedom of expression curtailed. Scary how "group think" is spreading. Suppressing personal freedom (including expression) is unconstitutional IMO.

Fortunately FL and other states are finally starting to push back.


----------



## Ken555 (Apr 8, 2021)

AndySamuels said:


> Another example: freedom of expression curtailed. Scary how "group think" is spreading. Suppressing personal freedom (including expression) is unconstitutional IMO.
> 
> Fortunately FL and other states are finally starting to push back.



Do you want this thread to get locked?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## AndySamuels (Apr 8, 2021)

Go ahead. That would just confirm my assertions.


----------



## Ken555 (Apr 8, 2021)

AndySamuels said:


> Go ahead. That would just confirm my assertions.



You misunderstand. It’s not me who would lock the thread. But if you continue posting socially contentious political comments others will complain and a mod will lock the thread. And thinking this confirms your opinion is a mistake and shows you don’t comprehend the purpose of TUG.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 8, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> Nope, wrong again. How many times must I post that I currently have five booked cruises and have been on numerous cruises in recent years? It makes me a “cruise hater” to point out obvious issues with your argument that cruises are clean and safe, and healthy? Ha! I’m just being realistic...  and I enjoy cruising, or else I wouldn’t be booked on more! This thread hasn’t encouraged any positive commentary, but you’re also new to TUG so you haven’t seen my past posts on this topic.
> 
> Note that you haven’t made a single comment on my earlier post re the cruise I was on where Australia almost didn’t allow us to disembark because we had a very high level of Noro on board. I even posted a pic of my steward in her outfit ready to clean! Nope, you just ignored that and continue to post commentary about how safe cruising is, and now attack me as a “hater”. You need to read reports on cruising from sources other than biased marketing sites. If you won’t believe a picture of a steward wearing a mask, gloves and protective gear due to a virus on board, it’s clear you have no objectivity on this topic.
> 
> ...



I think I would rather just ignore you and your silly arguments.

Again, maybe you should rethink your tagline.

BTW, as a side note, the amount of time spent on this board has absolutely ZERO correlation as to the amount of knowledge the poster does or doesn't possess. These "newbie" statements from you and others just goes to show how "cliqish" y'all have become, as if you think your time here means you're more knowledgeable than anyone else. No need to respond, it won't get read. Good day.


----------



## AndySamuels (Apr 8, 2021)

Correct: moderators have the privilege and duty to lock threads. And it is not my intention to have a political discussion.

I am merely pointing out that there is something to be said for personal choice regarding the choice to go on a cruise or not. The same for a cruise line to decide whether or not to sail.

I am also merely stating my opinion that lockdowns and so on have gone overboard. Of course people may disagree with my opinion and I respect that.

And I also pointed out that, in my opinion, there is a vast discrepancy and contradiction in how COVID suppression has become near obsessive. At the same time many other aspects of society are also detrimental to people's health but the freedom of choice in those matters is not debated. To me that appears very odd.


----------



## jehb2 (Apr 8, 2021)

pedro47 said:


> Have anyone watch on television The Last Cruise a HBO Special.?
> 
> Scary. IMHO


Thanks, I’m going to watch it now.


----------



## Gypsy65 (Apr 8, 2021)

AndySamuels said:


> IMO as a society we are trending towards totalitarian dictatorship by majority opinion. Which is extremely ironic: this nation was founded on the principle of personal freedom. Hopefully more people will realize that our freedoms are being eroded more rapidly by the day by fear mongering in the media.
> 
> If people want to smoke: assuming the risk of illness: that is OK.
> 
> ...



Winner Winner!!


----------



## Gypsy65 (Apr 8, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> It seems you have forgotten the USA is a republic, and what that means. Regardless if you like it or not, the minority is not intended to rule. And... if you continue with this theme you’ll just get this thread locked.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



But he’s not wrong so what happens a lot on this  forum is those who don’t agree get locked out 
That in itself is wrong
Jump over to most any other biker forum and it’s a very different arena 
One with an actual debate with a middle ground and not MINE is better than yours that we all see here

The idea that one side of ANYTHING is correct 100% and the other side is 100% out of their mind is crazy but the kool aid drinkers seem to make it all factual and there is no middle or even realistic debate anymore


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## AndySamuels (Apr 8, 2021)

Good news!









						Florida to sue CDC to allow cruises to resume U.S. sailings, industry asks to be treated like airlines
					

Florida's governor said the state will sue the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, demanding cruise ships be allowed to resume sailing immediately.




					www.cnbc.com


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## PigsDad (Apr 8, 2021)

Gypsy65 said:


> The idea that one side of ANYTHING is correct 100% and the other side is 100% out of their mind is crazy but the kool aid drinkers seem to make it all factual and there is no middle or even realistic debate anymore


OMG, that is soooo true!  That describes a few posters here (on both sides) to a T.  Just about did a spit-take when I read this.  

Kurt


----------



## "Roger" (Apr 8, 2021)

So how is this going to work. The cruise lines are saying people will have to be vaccinated, but Florida has said they will ban any company from requiring people to be vaccinated. So, if Florida wins the suit, are they going to conveniently make an exception? Can that lead other businesses to sue Florida?


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## Passepartout (Apr 8, 2021)

AndySamuels said:


> Good news!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gee, you don't suppose that the governor of Florida MIGHT be a little biased on this, do you? There is nobody more anxious to get back to cruising than I am. FWIW, I have final payment coming due shortly for our first post-Covid cruise, and another one in a few months. But just between friends, here, I'd like some assurance that the folks at my table in the dining room, my cabin steward, and the people packed into a tender with me are ALL vaccinated, and I have absolutely zero problem showing any of them an approved document proving mine.

Jim


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## am1 (Apr 8, 2021)

Gypsy65 said:


> But he’s not wrong so what happens a lot on this  forum is those who don’t agree get locked out
> That in itself is wrong
> Jump over to most any other biker forum and it’s a very different arena
> One with an actual debate with a middle ground and not MINE is better than yours that we all see here
> ...



All brought to you lately by the left.


----------



## Ken555 (Apr 8, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> I think I would rather just ignore you and your silly arguments.
> 
> Again, maybe you should rethink your tagline.
> 
> BTW, as a side note, the amount of time spent on this board has absolutely ZERO correlation as to the amount of knowledge the poster does or doesn't possess. These "newbie" statements from you and others just goes to show how "cliqish" y'all have become, as if you think your time here means you're more knowledgeable than anyone else. No need to respond, it won't get read. Good day.



Yup, keep lashing out at anyone who disagrees with you will get you far. Good to know you have all the answers. And as typical with people who don’t have a good rebuttal, you quickly attacked people personally. Yeah...you’ll go far on TUG.

As for history...it’s not uncommon at all for forums like TUG to question a newbie who attacks others who have been around for years. It’s laughable that you think this is abnormal.


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## Ken555 (Apr 8, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> Gee, you don't suppose that the governor of Florida MIGHT be a little biased on this, do you? There is nobody more anxious to get back to cruising than I am. FWIW, I have final payment coming due shortly for our first post-Covid cruise, and another one in a few months. But just between friends, here, I'd like some assurance that the folks at my table in the dining room, my cabin steward, and the people packed into a tender with me are ALL vaccinated, and I have absolutely zero problem showing any of them an approved document proving mine.
> 
> Jim



I have the same concerns. I’ve been discussing this very issue with friends in my group for our next cruise, and we are generally uncomfortable with a cruiseline that doesn’t require vaccines from everyone on board, including crew. This was one of the reasons why I booked a Virgin Voyages cruise next year the week they announced they will require this for all. 


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## MrockStar (Apr 8, 2021)

Watch out for fake Vaccine cards.


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## Glenn2 (Apr 8, 2021)

I too want cruises to return soon. We have 5 cruises booked between October 2021 and October 2022, all departing from Florida ports.  But I think the cruise industry is still a little premature in their timing by requesting the No Sail Order be lifted in July 2021.  I think the CDC will have a difficult time lifting the No Sail Order while new Covid cases are increasing slightly in the US.  Meanwhile for cruise enthusiasts, Royal Caribbean cruises can be had, departing from the Bahamas and Bermuda as early as June 2021.  But vaccination for all passengers is required.


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## Passepartout (Apr 8, 2021)

MrockStar said:


> Watch out for fake Vaccine cards.


Being fully vaxx'd, the above is more a danger to someone carrying a fake card than to me. Frankly, danger to public health is greater from unvaccinated children and their play and schoolmates. Kids MAY be at reduced risk themselves, but they can transmit the virus to others.


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## MrockStar (Apr 8, 2021)

Dont go if your concerned about unvaccinated kids on the cruise.


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## Gypsy65 (Apr 8, 2021)

Glenn2 said:


> I too want cruises to return soon. We have 5 cruises booked between October 2021 and October 2022, all departing from Florida ports.  But I think the cruise industry is still a little premature in their timing by requesting the No Sail Order be lifted in July 2021.  I think the CDC will have a difficult time lifting the No Sail Order while new Covid cases are increasing slightly in the US.  Meanwhile for cruise enthusiasts, Royal Caribbean cruises can be had, departing from the Bahamas and Bermuda as early as June 2021.  But vaccination for all passengers is required.



So......
I can’t get on a boat from the USA but I can get on a plane and fly to another location and get on a boat there
Then visit other ports
Get back on a plane to the USA and that’s perfectly fine?


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## Ken555 (Apr 8, 2021)

MrockStar said:


> Dont go if your concerned about unvaccinated kids on the cruise.



Or go on Virgin Voyages that don't permit kids.


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## Passepartout (Apr 8, 2021)

MrockStar said:


> Dont go if your concerned about unvaccinated kids on the cruise.


Damn few to no kids on cruises we take. My point being that while WE are protected, the much vaunted 'herd immunity' is unachievable as long as children cannot be vaccinated. So far, the highest rate of vaccination anywhere is in Israel, and even they will not hit 80%.


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## Luanne (Apr 8, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> Damn few to no kids on cruises we take. My point being that while WE are protected, the much vaunted 'herd immunity' is unachievable as long as children cannot be vaccinated. So far, the highest rate of vaccination anywhere is in Israel, and even they will not hit 80%.


I have a question for you, and anyone else planning a cruise.  Do you have any concern about being in port among people who potentially are not vaccinated?


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## AndySamuels (Apr 8, 2021)

Not worried in the least! Ready to party!

I am around unvaccinated people all the time here in FL. Few people here pay attention.


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## Luanne (Apr 8, 2021)

AndySamuels said:


> Not worried in the least! Ready to party!
> 
> I am around unvaccinated people all the time here in FL. Few people here pay attention.


Florida.  Isn't that the state where cases keep rising.


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## Passepartout (Apr 8, 2021)

Luanne said:


> I have a question for you, and anyone else planning a cruise.  Do you have any concern about being in port among people who potentially are not vaccinated?


Admittedly some. But we are fully vaxx'd and will stay masked and away from crowded indoor situations as much as possible.  We have a year of practice.


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## emeryjre (Apr 8, 2021)

At this point, when you return to the US from an international destination, a negative Covid test has to be provided to get on the plane.  So as long as that requirement is in place, flying to the Islands to catch a cruise, still has some concern about a positive test and getting stuck there.  Having the shots do not help overcome that requirement yet.


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## AndySamuels (Apr 8, 2021)

The sooner healthy / young people get infected the sooner this will all be over.


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## artringwald (Apr 8, 2021)

AndySamuels said:


> The sooner healthy / young people get infected the sooner this will all be over.


And if those young people get infected and spread it to older people, they could be over.


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## AndySamuels (Apr 8, 2021)

Yes: it is key young people keep away from the elderly and/or those with pre-existing conditions. No disagreement there!


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## artringwald (Apr 8, 2021)

AndySamuels said:


> Yes: it is key young people keep away from the elderly and/or those with pre-existing conditions. No disagreement there!


If vaccines for young people are approved, they could keep it from spreading without risking lives.


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## AndySamuels (Apr 8, 2021)

Maybe. I for one will not vaccinate my children with an emergency vaccine that has not been evaluated for long term risk. Plus my oldest already had COVID so we probably all did already. I believe I already had it twice.

Good news: herd immunity is accelerating as are vaccinations:









						FLORIDA COVID DRAMA: Huge Surge In New Cases, Record Set
					

BY: STAFF REPORT | BocaNewsNow.com BOCA RATON, FL (BocaNewsNow.com) (Copyright © 2021 MetroDesk Media, LLC) — The Florida Department of Health just reported a massive increase in new COVID-19 cases. (News App readers access the full story here). The state added 7,886 cases on Wednesday. That is...




					bocanewsnow.com
				




Passings are trending down: each passing is one too many of course. In many cases there are co-morbidities unfortunately. A combination of continued vaccination and accelerated infection of the young & healthy will hopefully soon fire break the virus and its variants.








						7,939 new Florida coronavirus cases reported Thursday; 84 new deaths
					

The Florida Department of Health says the number of known cases of COVID-19 in the state rose by 7,939 Thursday. According to the state's daily update, the total number of cases in Florida since the pandemic began is now 2,104,686.




					www.fox13news.com


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## MrockStar (Apr 8, 2021)

Ok, happy cruising everybody.


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## Passepartout (Apr 8, 2021)

Many of the younger people who are contracting Covid now are reporting long lasting debilitating issues involving 'brain fog', shortness of breath, low grade fever, loss of taste, and I can see from comments from newcomers here that there MUST be some loss of mental faculty from long term refusal to accept facts.

Jim


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## Ken555 (Apr 8, 2021)

Luanne said:


> I have a question for you, and anyone else planning a cruise. Do you have any concern about being in port among people who potentially are not vaccinated?



Yes.


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## artringwald (Apr 9, 2021)

AndySamuels said:


> I for one will not vaccinate my children with an emergency vaccine that has not been evaluated for long term risk.


Risk assessment is hard to do when none knows the long term effects of the vaccine or the long term effects of asymptomatic contraction of the virus. It's an easier decision when you're over 70 like I am. I got vaccinated as soon as I could.


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## AndySamuels (Apr 9, 2021)

Agreed!


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## Talent312 (Apr 10, 2021)

What if they dry docked their ships and opened them as hotels+restaurants?
Would those opposed to cruising, also be opposed to a ship-like resort?
.


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## pedro47 (Apr 10, 2021)

Go bye Carnival, I will not miss you sailing from a US port.


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## Mongoose (Apr 10, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> It isn't their choice. NO cruise ships are allowed to arrive in, or depart from ANY US ports. When the powers that be feel that cruising can be done safely, they'll be back. But for now, Take a chill pill!


I wish that was the case, however everything from Washington with COVID has been political.  The tiresome Red/Blue fight.  The decisions they are making are not based on science, they are based on political gamesmanship.


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## bbodb1 (Apr 10, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> Hmmm, US flights to get to and the cruise, hotels for stays before and after the cruise, food purchased prior to and after the cruise, rental cars to see the local area before and after, food/toiletries/gift merchandise/etc purchased by the cruise ship to replenish stock, fuel so the ship can actually move, port charges and taxes, terminal rental for embarkation/disembarkation......oh, and and wages for all of the employees operating all of those things. That's the revenue they produce (and then some). North America had over 14 million cruise passengers in 2019. Yea, with the money they spend before and after the cruise and what the cruise line spends themselves, that's a couple of bucks here and there.



Getting back to this point - I question whether the economic benefits of the cruising industry are all that significant to the U.S. Economy.  Your points here about the areas where money is spent ancillary to the cruising experience may not be all that typical, but even if taken at face value, would these benefits be anywhere near significant (and necessary) to the economy as the cargo operations are?

Again, the cruise line profits are bound to companies based in other countries (to avoid paying U.S. taxes among other reasons).  Sure, some of the other cruise related activities you mention will create revenue for (more likely) U.S. based companies and tax revenue for the areas around the ports.  My position is the cruising industry just is not that essential to the ongoing health of the U.S. Economy since it does not occupy a very large portion of the economy.  Yes, every dollar helps but I would be much more worried about the cargo operations around a port than the passenger operations.  I don't see the return of cruising as essential to the recovery and on going health of the U.S. Economy.


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## bbodb1 (Apr 10, 2021)

AndySamuels said:


> Maybe. I for one will not vaccinate my children with an emergency vaccine that has not been evaluated for long term risk. Plus my oldest already had COVID so we probably all did already. I believe I already had it twice.
> 
> Good news: herd immunity is accelerating as are vaccinations:
> 
> ...



I have mentioned this before elsewhere, but I work in a public school and the typical teacher is female with a considerable portion of them still in the childbearing years.  Many of them have decline or refused the vaccine to this point because of a lack of data on the long term effects.  As they should - unless there is a situation where an immediate family member may be exceptionally at risk.  

A longer track record (more data over time) is needed before these women will take the vaccine.  
Some people still recall the horrors with respect to thalidomide.


----------



## Gypsy65 (Apr 10, 2021)

bbodb1 said:


> Getting back to this point - I question whether the economic benefits of the cruising industry are all that significant to the U.S. Economy.  Your points here about the areas where money is spent ancillary to the cruising experience may not be all that typical, but even if taken at face value, would these benefits be anywhere near significant (and necessary) to the economy as the cargo operations are?
> 
> Again, the cruise line profits are bound to companies based in other countries (to avoid paying U.S. taxes among other reasons).  Sure, some of the other cruise related activities you mention will create revenue for (more likely) U.S. based companies and tax revenue for the areas around the ports.  My position is the cruising industry just is not that essential to the ongoing health of the U.S. Economy since it does not occupy a very large portion of the economy.  Yes, every dollar helps but I would be much more worried about the cargo operations around a port than the passenger operations.  I don't see the return of cruising as essential to the recovery and on going health of the U.S. Economy.



It’s not just X or Y cruise line

The unseen money is much higher 

Travel by air or whatever
Food grown, shipped , and prepared by restaurants where cruisers go before or after a cruise
Hotels
Rental cars
Local deep sea fishing for the same reason 
Trucking of products to ships or local companies who make $ from travelers either at home or port States

The list is very extensive on who benefits from just the cruise line’s


----------



## Fried_shrimp (Apr 10, 2021)

bbodb1 said:


> Getting back to this point - I question whether the economic benefits of the cruising industry are all that significant to the U.S. Economy.  Your points here about the areas where money is spent ancillary to the cruising experience may not be all that typical, but even if taken at face value, would these benefits be anywhere near significant (and necessary) to the economy as the cargo operations are?
> 
> Again, the cruise line profits are bound to companies based in other countries (to avoid paying U.S. taxes among other reasons).  Sure, some of the other cruise related activities you mention will create revenue for (more likely) U.S. based companies and tax revenue for the areas around the ports.  My position is the cruising industry just is not that essential to the ongoing health of the U.S. Economy since it does not occupy a very large portion of the economy.  Yes, every dollar helps but I would be much more worried about the cargo operations around a port than the passenger operations.  I don't see the return of cruising as essential to the recovery and on going health of the U.S. Economy.



I never stated the US cruise industry is a significant factor to the US economy. But it is a significant factor to the Florida economy with 5 cruise ports hence Gov DeSantis filing a lawsuit against the CDC.


----------



## VacationForever (Apr 10, 2021)

bbodb1 said:


> Getting back to this point - I question whether the economic benefits of the cruising industry are all that significant to the U.S. Economy.  Your points here about the areas where money is spent ancillary to the cruising experience may not be all that typical, but even if taken at face value, would these benefits be anywhere near significant (and necessary) to the economy as the cargo operations are?
> 
> Again, the cruise line profits are bound to companies based in other countries (to avoid paying U.S. taxes among other reasons).  Sure, some of the other cruise related activities you mention will create revenue for (more likely) U.S. based companies and tax revenue for the areas around the ports.  My position is the cruising industry just is not that essential to the ongoing health of the U.S. Economy since it does not occupy a very large portion of the economy.  Yes, every dollar helps but I would be much more worried about the cargo operations around a port than the passenger operations.  I don't see the return of cruising as essential to the recovery and on going health of the U.S. Economy.


I agree.  Cruise lines are mostly registered outside of the US, if not all, and almost all employees/contract workers are non-USA residents.  Cruise port businesses get financial benefit from cruises but fairly insignificant.


----------



## Mongoose (Apr 10, 2021)

artringwald said:


> Risk assessment is hard to do when none knows the long term effects of the vaccine or the long term effects of asymptomatic contraction of the virus. It's an easier decision when you're over 70 like I am. I got vaccinated as soon as I could.


I agree completely.  People seem to forget that these are only EUA and no one knows how long they provide protection for.  Those that are at high risk should strongly consider the vaccine.  Those that are at low risk should probably not.  The data shows the death rate for children is 300% higher for the common flu than COVID.


----------



## Fried_shrimp (Apr 10, 2021)

VacationForever said:


> I agree.  Cruise lines are mostly registered outside of the US, if not all, and almost all employees/contract workers are non-USA residents.  Cruise port businesses get financial benefit from cruises but fairly insignificant.



You may not know this but all of the headquarters for the major cruise lines are located in the US. So the cruise industry does pay a large amount of taxes in the US not to mention the thousands of US citizens it employees to work not only in those buildings but in it's multitude of service and sales centers.

To add: there are also some American citizens that actually work on the ship as well. Many of the entertainment staff (dancers, singers, piano players) are American citizens as well as all of the comedians they fly into the ships.


----------



## Ken555 (Apr 10, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> You may not know this but all of the headquarters for the major cruise lines are also located in the US. So the cruise industry does pay a large amount of taxes in the US not to mention the thousands of US citizens it employees to work not only in those buildings but in it's multitude of service and sales centers.











						Most cruise lines don't pay federal income tax — just one of the reasons they aren't getting a bailout
					

"They're not giving up their tax exemption," said one analyst. ”I assure you that is sacrosanct."




					www.nbcnews.com
				






> The three biggest cruise lines are incorporated in what are called equivalent exemption countries where they are not required to pay the 21 percent corporate income tax that U.S. companies are obligated to pay, said Robert Willens, a tax and accounting analyst.



If they moved to the US... 





> [...]Carnival, the biggest U.S. cruise line company, would have had to pay around $600 million in corporate taxes on its reported $3 billion in income for 2019.











						Fact Check: Do Cruise Lines Pay US Taxes?
					

As many states prepare to reopen after three months of self-isolation and social distancing, cruisers are finding the travel itch a bit difficult to scratch.




					cruiseradio.net
				






> Provisions under the U.S. Internal Revenue Code allow foreign corporations — like cruise lines — to do business in America without being taxed federally, as long as they are registered in countries that have reciprocal agreements with the U.S.





> How much do cruise lines pay in taxes?
> 
> In 2019, Carnival Corp. paid $71 million in taxes on $3.06 billion in income. In the same year, Royal Caribbean Cruises, Ltd. paid $25.5 million in taxes on $1.8 billion in income, and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings paid $18.9 million in taxes on more than $911 million in income.
> 
> ...


----------



## bbodb1 (Apr 11, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> I never stated the US cruise industry is a significant factor to the US economy. But it is a significant factor to the Florida economy with 5 cruise ports hence Gov DeSantis filing a lawsuit against the CDC.





Fried_shrimp said:


> You may not know this but all of the headquarters for the major cruise lines are located in the US. So the cruise industry does pay a large amount of taxes in the US not to mention the thousands of US citizens it employees to work not only in those buildings but in it's multitude of service and sales centers.
> 
> To add: there are also some American citizens that actually work on the ship as well. Many of the entertainment staff (dancers, singers, piano players) are American citizens as well as all of the comedians they fly into the ships.



I have to admit that my first thoughts were similar to Ken's (in this area only -  ) as the cruise industry takes advantage of legal means available to avoid taxation and the U.S. wage laws. To say the cruise industry pays a large amount of taxes is an incomplete comparison if you don't factor in the taxes they avoid via the reciprocal agreements. Now to be fair, _*any*_ business can (and should) look for all legal means to minimize its tax bill - just as every consumer does (should).  Is this an area where reform or review of the tax code is needed?  Absolutely. 

Your point about the cruise industry being important to Florida made me wonder just how significant the cruise industry is to the tourism sector of the Florida economy.  According to the article below, it suggests the cruise industry is responsible for roughly 10% of the tourism occurring in Florida.  A quote from the Investopedia article:


> ...According to a Cruise Lines International Association 2019 study, Florida's cruise industry generated 12.4 million passenger and crew visits, accounting for almost 50% of all passenger and crew visits in the United States. Onshore spending by passengers and crews produced just over $1.2 billion. Total passenger and crew spending in Florida increased by 15% in 2018 from 2016....



One would have to assume this study by the Cruise Lines International Association would likely portray the cruise lines in as favorable a light as possible, but if their claim(s) that cruising amounts to about 10% of the tourism dollars spent in Florida is reasonably accurate, it would _*NOT*_ be the first area of tourism the Governor would be concerned about with respect to their resumption and economic well being.....but it would not be the last either. 









						Gross Domestic Product (GDP): Formula and How to Use It
					

Gross domestic product is the monetary value of all finished goods and services made within a country during a specific period.




					www.investopedia.com
				




One other point - where you mention taxes, it might be fairer to say user fees.  Cruise lines do remit a lot of money to state local governments but primarily in the form of port fees and taxes collected from the consumer.


----------



## Fried_shrimp (Apr 11, 2021)

bbodb1 said:


> I have to admit that my first thoughts were similar to Ken's (in this area only -  ) as the cruise industry takes advantage of legal means available to avoid taxation and the U.S. wage laws. To say the cruise industry pays a large amount of taxes is an incomplete comparison if you don't factor in the taxes they avoid via the reciprocal agreements. Now to be fair, _*any*_ business can (and should) look for all legal means to minimize its tax bill - just as every consumer does (should).  Is this an area where reform or review of the tax code is needed?  Absolutely.
> 
> Your point about the cruise industry being important to Florida made me wonder just how significant the cruise industry is to the tourism sector of the Florida economy.  According to the article below, it suggests the cruise industry is responsible for roughly 10% of the tourism occurring in Florida.  A quote from the Investopedia article:
> 
> ...



I live in Florida. Most, if not all, other tourism sources have been open since last July. Cruising is the only large tourism center not allowed to open. If the 10% number is accurate, try taking 10% from any economy and see how much it hurts. While this may not affect someone living in Delaware, it most certainly affects someone living in Florida and especially those who rely on that part of the economy to make a living, whether they are American or not.

If you go back to the beginning of the thread though, what infuriate me the most is the cavalier attitude of the first few posters with their "bye bye" and "see ya" posts. There are many, many companies that move their facilities outside of the US due to tax/regulation concerns (all of the big car makers/Nike/etc...) with nary a word about it. Also, other cruise lines (Royal and NCL) stated prior to Carnival's media release that they were going to start operations outside of the US with not a peep being made. So is it just a general disdain for Carnival, the largest, most successful of all of the cruise lines, or a disdain for the entire cruising industry? In either case, such flippancy is uncalled for as Carnival is just a business, like Disney/Universal/Seaworld that is trying to figure out how to keep it's head above water and keep a business alive during these times that so many people count on for employment and pleasure. While I don't work for the cruise line industry, I certainly can empathize with those who do and how their lives, both in the US and overseas, have been utterly disrupted, and in many cases, destroyed, by the actions of the CDC.


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## bbodb1 (Apr 11, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> I live in Florida. Most, if not all, other tourism sources have been open since last July. Cruising is the only large tourism center not allowed to open. If the 10% number is accurate, try taking 10% from any economy and see how much it hurts. While this may not affect someone living in Delaware, it most certainly affects someone living in Florida and especially those who rely on that part of the economy to make a living, whether they are American or not.
> 
> If you go back to the beginning of the thread though, what infuriate me the most is the cavalier attitude of the first few posters with their "bye bye" and "see ya" posts. There are many, many companies that move their facilities outside of the US due to tax/regulation concerns (all of the big car makers/Nike/etc...) with nary a word about it. Also, other cruise lines (Royal and NCL) stated prior to Carnival's media release that they were going to start operations outside of the US with not a peep being made. So is it just a general disdain for Carnival, the largest, most successful of all of the cruise lines, or a disdain for the entire cruising industry? In either case, such flippancy is uncalled for as Carnival is just a business, like Disney/Universal/Seaworld that is trying to figure out how to keep it's head above water and keep a business alive during these times that so many people count on for employment and pleasure. While I don't work for the cruise line industry, I certainly can empathize with those who do and how their lives, both in the US and overseas, have been utterly disrupted, and in many cases, destroyed, by the actions of the CDC.



I'll admit I am no fan of the cruising industry because of their practice of sailing under foreign flags when they (almost) exclusively depend on U.S. customers.  But concurrently, I do recognize the role they play in our economy - and that should not be ignored.  I agree that we need our economy to be reopened and moving back toward operating at full capacity.  For better or worse, the course has been set and we've been executing it for some time.  

The big takeaway is what did we learn from COVID-19, what do we know and how can we better react / respond / prevent this from ever happening again.  Among the lessons learned is we can't shut down the economy as we did (in the manner we did it) without some serious negative effects.  If anything good is to come from COVID-19, we need to have a much better playbook at the ready for how to deal with a pandemic.  While the time to develop a vaccine to combat COVID-19 was agonizingly long by today's standards, I suspect in review, that timeline was very brief compared to previous outbreaks.  If our scientific processes improve and streamline and we have to deal with a similar situation again in the future, I hope we are now much better prepared.  

The role of the CDC should be reconsidered and reformed as well.  In a perfect world, we would have such an entity in existence and free from all outside influence(s).  Clearly, we don't live in a perfect world and I don't see any easy answers on how to create an entity like the CDC _*should*_ be.


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## Passepartout (Apr 11, 2021)

bbodb1 said:


> The big takeaway is what did we learn from COVID-19, what do we know and how can we better react / respond / prevent this from ever happening again.  Among the lessons learned is *we can't shut down the economy as we did* (in the manner we did it) without some serious negative effects.  If anything good is to come from COVID-19, we need to have a much better *playbook at the ready for how to deal with a pandemic*.  While the time to develop a vaccine to combat COVID-19 was agonizingly long by today's standards, I suspect in review, that timeline was very brief compared to previous outbreaks.  If our scientific processes improve and streamline and we have to deal with a similar situation again in the future, I* hope we are now much better prepared. *
> 
> The role of the CDC should be reconsidered and reformed as well.  *In a perfect world, we would have such an entity in existence and free from all outside influence*(s).  Clearly, we don't live in a perfect world and I don't see any easy answers on how to create an entity like the CDC _*should*_ be.


(Above emphasis mine) We DID have a playbook on what to do if (when) a pandemic arose- it was thrown out. We DID have a pandemic task force ready to spring to action. It was disbanded. There were plans on what to do to prepare the economy, kick-start production of treatments/vaccines. They were ignored wholly instead distributing bogus treatments (hydroxyquine, injecting bleach), stopping testing and tracking of those infected.

Without naming names- it's unnecessary- NOBODY can claim the the initial reaction to Covid- even though it's seriousness was KNOWN- and reported- was not blotched. 

Jim


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## Gypsy65 (Apr 11, 2021)

If the cruise lines flew the American flag with American wages and all American products then that $1000 cruise would be a much higher number

Also
Unless employees are lying or hiding something everyone we have talked with on cruises appreciate their jobs and the $ they make equals a much higher wage than they could make. If any wage at all from where the originate


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## Ken555 (Apr 11, 2021)

bbodb1 said:


> I have to admit that my first thoughts were similar to Ken's (in this area only -  )



It's nice that some of us can agree and recognize that even though we may approach issues from different perspectives, ultimately we respect opinions when those opinions are based in fact. I disagree with you more than I agree, but I (don't believe) I have ever thought you had an uninformed opinion nor do I believe that your opinion cannot be changed when presented with compelling arguments.


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## Ken555 (Apr 11, 2021)

Gypsy65 said:


> If the cruise lines flew the American flag with American wages and all American products then that $1000 cruise would be a much higher number



This means that the American tax payer is subsidizing a portion of the cruise industry, since those ships which operate exclusively within the US pay higher taxes and labor wages as compared with those that do not. Is this fair to those companies which operate within the US and pay taxes?


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## bbodb1 (Apr 11, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> (Above emphasis mine) We DID have a playbook on what to do if (when) a pandemic arose- it was thrown out. We DID have a pandemic task force ready to spring to action. It was disbanded. There were plans on what to do to prepare the economy, kick-start production of treatments/vaccines. They were ignored wholly instead distributing bogus treatments (hydroxyquine, injecting bleach), stopping testing and tracking of those infected.
> 
> Without naming names- it's unnecessary- NOBODY can claim the the initial reaction to Covid- even though it's seriousness was KNOWN- and reported- was not blotched.
> 
> Jim



Jim,

I agree the initial reaction to COVID - by the Chinese - was botched (although covered up _*may*_ be more correct description).  But any playbook / plans / committees that were in existence in the United States were found to be lacking as well.  And yes, I include *all* politicians in that statement - regardless of their ideology.  

Whatever plans we had, did not work.  There were / are several factors that contributed to that outcome. 
We need to go back to the drawing board, but in the current political climate that seems quite unlikely.


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## bbodb1 (Apr 11, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> It's nice that some of us can agree and recognize that even though we may approach issues from different perspectives, ultimately we respect opinions when those opinions are based in fact. I disagree with you more than I agree, but I (don't believe) I have ever thought you had an uninformed opinion nor do I believe that your opinion cannot be changed when presented with compelling arguments.



I wondered if you would see that!  And yes, I agree with this sentiment.  I've read your posts on a variety of subjects here on TUG and will continue to do so because revisiting the process which leads one to a conclusion is a worthwhile undertaking.  Carry on!


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## Ken555 (Apr 11, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> I live in Florida. Most, if not all, other tourism sources have been open since last July. Cruising is the only large tourism center not allowed to open. If the 10% number is accurate, try taking 10% from any economy and see how much it hurts. While this may not affect someone living in Delaware, it most certainly affects someone living in Florida and especially those who rely on that part of the economy to make a living, whether they are American or not.



No one here has written that Florida would not be hurt by the continuing suspension of cruising.



> If you go back to the beginning of the thread though, what infuriate me the most is the cavalier attitude of the first few posters with their "bye bye" and "see ya" posts.



That's me! I still believe it. I think cruising is still *not safe*, and the cruise industry "health panel's" and other groups they've created in order to improve their PR after the 2020 debacle that has scared away many from cruising can only be assumed to have been done as a marketing effort in order to not go bankrupt. I don't blame the cruise industry for using their PR and marketing teams to improve perception, but ultimately I have read little about actual, factual, changes on board ships which have improved air flow and circulation (I've read a lot about this, and it's predominantly marketing). Videos and pictures from cruises which have operated in the last year show little adherence to social distancing (in fact, I distinctly recall a video where ships officers were shaking hands and hugging (!!) passengers).

Yet, I still have five cruises booked and intend to book more, though some of those I have will likely be canceled or rebooked for a later date.

I'm still of the opinion it's too early for cruising to resume. Much of my opinion is due to my significant and regular cruising over the last number of years where I have seen first hand the indifference of crew following health guidelines carefully. Instead, they sort-of follow guidance...and most crew have an inability to correct a passenger when the passenger flaunts health guidance (washy washy), etc.



> There are many, many companies that move their facilities outside of the US due to tax/regulation concerns (all of the big car makers/Nike/etc...) with nary a word about it.



Um...no. Lots of people notice when these companies move abroad. You're now attempting to rewrite history. Do a few searches and you'll see numerous references to the response of companies moving abroad, what that means to our economy, and the long-term anticipated impact such changes will have on our economy (some of which are already occurring).



> Also, other cruise lines (Royal and NCL) stated prior to Carnival's media release that they were going to start operations outside of the US with not a peep being made.



Once again, you're rewriting history. Lots of peeps were made, mostly in favor of their decision (especially by the cruise fanatics).



> So is it just a general disdain for Carnival, the largest, most successful of all of the cruise lines, or a disdain for the entire cruising industry? In either case, such flippancy is uncalled for as Carnival is just a business, like Disney/Universal/Seaworld that is trying to figure out how to keep it's head above water and keep a business alive during these times that so many people count on for employment and pleasure.



Now you're asking us to respect businesses because...they're a business. Huh? Sorry, nope. Businesses need to earn my trust, earn my respect, and earn my $$. I don't want the cruise industry to fail (once again, I currently have five booked cruises) but they need, can, and must do better.

I suspect this will all be solved in the near future once every cruise line commits that every person on board must be vaccinated and all countries the ship visits are doing well in terms of Covid vaccination. Over time I think this would be relaxed so those who are medically unable to be vaccinated (and those are very few, from what I understand) would also be able to cruise. For myself, as of now I do not want to be on a ship in the next year or so with anyone who has not been vaccinated, and if that means I must cancel my trip so be it. Guidance changes over time, so as new info is released my opinion will no doubt also change.



> While I don't work for the cruise line industry, I certainly can empathize with those who do and how their lives, both in the US and overseas, have been utterly disrupted, and in many cases, destroyed, by the actions of the CDC.



You seem to think those of us who do not believe it is yet safe to cruise have a fundamental issue with the cruise industry. Untrue. I also empathize with those who work in the cruise industry and am personally concerned that their livelihoods have been impacted by this pandemic (as many of us have been, regardless of industry). I do not believe this is strictly due to the CDC. You are blaming the agency responsible for our collective health when you should be blaming your neighbors, your community, your State, your political leaders and other Americans for not following medical advice when this pandemic was first discovered. We could have had it under control had we followed guidance but that was too difficult. And now you want to blame someone and the CDC is an obvious target for your rage.


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 11, 2021)

Gypsy65 said:


> _*If the cruise lines flew the American flag with American wages and all American products then that $1000 cruise would be a much higher number*_
> 
> Also
> Unless employees are lying or hiding something everyone we have talked with on cruises appreciate their jobs and the $ they make equals a much higher wage than they could make. If any wage at all from where the originate



That is 100% correct. One only needs to look at the prices of the NCL Pride of America (the only cruise ship from a major cruise line that flies an American flag) to see it's prices are roughly double what other cruise ships run for a 7 night cruise. And IMO, the service, with American staff, was, while good, not as good as other cruise ships I've sailed.

I have yet to meet a member of a cruise ship that was not overjoyed at being able to work on a cruise ship. Yes, they miss their families at times but what they make on a cruise ship versus what they would make in their country of origin far outweighs the negatives of working on a cruise ship.


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## Ken555 (Apr 11, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> I have yet to meet a member of a cruise ship that was not overjoyed at being able to work on a cruise ship. Yes, they miss their families at times but what they make on a cruise ship versus what they would make in their country of origin far outweighs the negatives of working on a cruise ship.



Where do our labor laws fit within this scenario? 

And, dare I ask, would you ever expect to hear anything otherwise from crew than this opinion? Think about it.


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## pedro47 (Apr 11, 2021)

IMHO. Any order for any cruise line to be profitable, they must sail from American ports with American cruisers. .


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## Ken555 (Apr 11, 2021)

pedro47 said:


> IMHO. Any order for any cruise line to be profitable, they must sail from American ports with American cruisers. .



There are cruise lines that don't port in the USA, and they are profitable.


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## pedro47 (Apr 11, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> There are cruise lines that don't port in the USA, and they are profitable.


I was reference the big four cruise lines that port in the USA; Royal Caribbean, Carnival, Disney and NCL.

Celebrity Cruise Line and  Silver Seas Cruise Lines are under the Royal Caribbean umberra

Princess Cruise Line, Holland America, Cunard, Adia, Seabourne, Costa, P&O Cruise Lines are owned by Carnival Corp.


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## Ken555 (Apr 11, 2021)

pedro47 said:


> I was reference the big four cruise lines that port in the USA; Royal Caribbean, Carnival, Disney and NCL.
> 
> Celebrity Cruise Line and  Silver Seas Cruise Lines are under the Royal Caribbean umberra
> 
> Princess Cruise Line, Holland America, Cunard, Adia, Seabourne, Costa, P&O Cruise Lines are owned by Carnival Corp.



Yes, these cruise lines have built into their business model the fact that they pay ~2% taxes in the US, and need to sail at convenient ports for the US cruiser.


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## pedro47 (Apr 12, 2021)

I forgot to include that NCL own Regent and Oceania Cruise Lines.

I feel without American cruisers sailing from American ports, the cruise industry cannot survive. IMHO.

Finally, in 2019 over,10 million Americans cruise from North American ports.


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## jehb2 (Apr 12, 2021)

I watched the HBO documentary mentioned here “The Last Cruise.”  A lot of the staff or crew members were from Indonesia.  Maruja Daya, a pastry chef, makes $997 a month and works 13 hour days with little time off.


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## jehb2 (Apr 12, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> I have yet to meet a member of a cruise ship that was not overjoyed at being able to work on a cruise ship. Yes, they miss their families at times but what they make on a cruise ship versus what they would make in their country of origin far outweighs the negatives of working on a cruise ship.



Have you seen the movie “The Help.” You need to watch the movie “The Help”


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## Gypsy65 (Apr 12, 2021)

jehb2 said:


> I watched the HBO documentary mentioned here “The Last Cruise.”  A lot of the staff or crew members were from Indonesia.  Maruja Daya, a pastry chef, makes $997 a month and works 13 hour days with little time off.



And?
Not sure what the angle was and not trying to be negative 
But some places have 4br homes for rent with a staff member for a couple hundred a month

What we expect for a wage to live a certain lifestyle is very different than where a lot of these other expect

If the place these people live was better than a cruise life then none of them would do it but staff I have met have told me they had been doing it for years


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## jehb2 (Apr 12, 2021)

Gypsy65 said:


> ...but staff I have met have told me they had been doing it for years



Have you seen the movie “The Help.” You need to watch the movie “The Help”

Better yet, read the book.


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## jehb2 (Apr 12, 2021)

I saw another documentary about working on a cruise line.  The maid was suppose to start cleaning rooms at 7am or 8am.  But not a lot of people  wanted to get up that early.  She would have to wait for people to leave their rooms and thus couldn’t actually complete cleaning the rooms by the end of her shift.

So, she would pay other crew members to help her clean so she could finish her job in the allotted time.  In the end she was making next to nothing.


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## "Roger" (Apr 12, 2021)

I realize that there needs to be waiters, cleaning staff, etc. I just hope that I never come to think "Oh these people should be so grateful that I am allowing them to serve me."


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 12, 2021)

jehb2 said:


> Have you seen the movie “The Help.” You need to watch the movie “The Help”



Yes, I have. If you think the two situations are even remotely similar, you really just don't understand the cruise industry. Cruise lines have a wait list of people wanting to work for them. I don't think any black person in Mississippi was waiting in a line to work for a white family as a maid in the 1950s.


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 12, 2021)

jehb2 said:


> I saw another documentary about working on a cruise line.  The maid was suppose to start cleaning rooms at 7am or 8am.  But not a lot of people  wanted to get up that early.  She would have to wait for people to leave their rooms and thus couldn’t actually complete cleaning the rooms by the end of her shift.
> 
> So, she would pay other crew members to help her clean so she could finish her job in the allotted time.  In the end she was making next to nothing.



And most documentaries show things from the perspective they want you to see. Are you trying to compare hundreds of thousands of workers to one woman's supposedly accurate story? If so, I'm guessing you think the 60 Minutes story on Gov DeSantis was fully accurate as well.


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 12, 2021)

"Roger" said:


> I realize that there needs to be waiters, cleaning staff, etc. I just hope that I never come to think "Oh these people should be so grateful that I am allowing them to serve me."



Not sure what angle you are trying to play. As I said before, I have been on 30 cruises and I like talking with the crew and have gotten to know several of them very well. Every single one I've spoken with was happy to be working as they either could not find work back home or the pay back home was pitiful. Have you ever said anything other than "Thank you" to a crew member? Do you even say "Thank you"? I've seen plenty of dirt bag cruisers who can't even manage to thank someone for what they do. Not to mention the jackwads on the last night of a cruise at the GS desk pulling their tips to save a few bucks.


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## "Roger" (Apr 13, 2021)

Second cruise line will require vaccination. DeSantis says he can bar cruise ships from Florida harbors.  









						Another cruise line will require vaccines; DeSantis says no
					

Silversea Cruises announced that it will require all passengers to be vaccinated against the COVID-19 virus when operations resume in June. The decision could set up a confrontation with Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, who says his order prohibiting "vaccine passports" applies to cruise lines.




					www.sun-sentinel.com


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## "Roger" (Apr 13, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> ... Have you ever said anything other than "Thank you" to a crew member? Do you even say "Thank you"? I've seen plenty of dirt bag cruisers who can't even manage to thank someone for what they do. Not to mention the jackwads on the last night of a cruise at the GS desk pulling their tips to save a few bucks.








						hugh musekela you don't know me -  Video Search Results
					

The search engine that helps you find exactly what you're looking for. Find the most relevant information, video, images, and answers from all across the Web.




					video.search.yahoo.com
				




Enjoy. (Great song)


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## MommaBear (Apr 13, 2021)

It will be interesting to see how long DeSantis keeps up this posture. Right now he is hurting his state.


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## beejaybeeohio (Apr 13, 2021)

"Roger" said:


> Second cruise line will require vaccination. DeSantis says he can bar cruise ships from Florida harbors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I believe he did so last year by refusing to allow a covid-carrying cruise ship to dock in Florida, although he finally relented since there were some passengers from his state aboard.

He seems to be cutting off his nose, etc. Wouldn't his state benefit from the pre- and post- cruise spending by passengers who embark out of Florida's ports? 

I personally believe that cruise lines have the right to require that passengers be vaccinated in order to sail.


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## Ken555 (Apr 13, 2021)

"Roger" said:


> Second cruise line will require vaccination. DeSantis says he can bar cruise ships from Florida harbors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Add Virgin Voyages to that list. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Talent312 (Apr 13, 2021)

If you look up the definition of village idiot in a dictionary,
you'll see a photograph of _______________ (fill in the blank).

.


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## Fried_shrimp (Apr 13, 2021)

MommaBear said:


> It will be interesting to see how long DeSantis keeps up this posture. Right now he is hurting his state.



Since I live in the state of Florida, please explain how he is hurting it? For those of us living here, we love Gov DeSantis.


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## MommaBear (Apr 13, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> Since I live in the state of Florida, please explain how he is hurting it? For those of us living here, we love Gov DeSantis.


DeSantis is both preventing cruising from restarting in Florida by denying private companies to require vaccinations and simultaneously trying to sue the US government to restart cruising. If he really wants to restart the Florida economy, he's got to figure out which stance he wants to take.


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## Ken555 (Apr 13, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> For those of us living here, we love Gov DeSantis.



Is that why he won with 100% of the vote? ROFL


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Luanne (Apr 13, 2021)

Fried_shrimp said:


> Since I live in the state of Florida, please explain how he is hurting it? For those of us living here, we love Gov DeSantis.


Not everyone who lives in Florida loves him.  My best friend and her family think he's an idiot.


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## DeniseM (Apr 13, 2021)

DONE AND DONE


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