# How Would You Design the MVC/Vistana Integration?



## FamilyEsq (Feb 29, 2020)

How Would You Design the MVC/Vistana Integration?

I am trying to decide how to proceed under the new integration between MVC/Vistana.  No one, other than MVC corporate, knows the exact parameters of the integration.   The integration is important to me because I am deciding whether to pick up a Marriott trader or a Vistana StarOption generator.  I would like to know which one would be the most practical going forward.

I made a couple of assumptions (which you may disagree with) of the future integration.


MVC wants a common currency that will generate the most profit.  Destination Points (DP) seem to be the optimal profit generator.  It is a fairly easy concept to  for purchasers to understand, and it is easy for MVC to raise the maintenance fee per point whenever it is so inclined to do so.
MVC’s best potential new customers are its existing DP owners.  (The maintenance fees for DPs are among the highest in the MVC system and MVC can easily adjust the point requirement cost for a stay at a particular resort.)  Current Vistana owners are probably next on the list.
Marriott would be able to sell the most DPs by offering current MVC owners access to the Vistana resorts. 
The inventory that Marriott would be able to offer DP owners would come from unsold and repurchased “ROFR” Vistana inventory.  (Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t believe that Marriott/Vistana would be able to offer any of the inventory that is currently reserved using StarOptions.)
However, most of the inventory that Marriott/Vistana would likely offer would have to come from Vistana Owners enrolling their weeks in the new integrated system.

I believe the best system for integration is the simplest system.  If I were in charge of the integration I would make DPs the common currency between the two systems.  This can be easily achieved by allowing Vistana owners to enroll their weeks in the MVC program.  Vistana owners would be required to pay a small fee.  MVC wants Vistana weeks enrolled in this combined program.  The more Vistana weeks enrolled in this new system, the easier it will be for MVC salespeople to sell more DPs because there will be greater availability of premium weeks.  Salespeople will tout access to Westin Hawaii, St. Johns, Mexico resorts, etc.

Questions:


Will Marriott allow the enrollment of resale Vistana weeks?


I believe Marriott would be wise to allow enrollment of resale weeks.  Resale owners are a significant number of the overall owners of Vistana timeshares.  Marriott would increase its available inventory.  Marriott would “earn” a substantial amount of money by charging Vistana owners a fee to enroll each week.


The argument against Marriott allowing resale weeks in the Integrated Program is that Marriott, rather than allow resale owners to enroll weeks for a nominal fee, can require resale owners to make a substantial new purchase (Destination Points) to participate in the Integrated Program.


Will Marriott allow the enrollment of resale Marriott weeks?


Marriott could make money by enrolling Marriott resale weeks that have not been enrolled.  Marriott last offered open enrollment in 2010 (ten years ago).  Marriott may feel it is beneficial to increase inventory without having to exercise ROFR and earn enrollment fees.


The argument against Marriott allowing enrollment of Marriott resale weeks is that Marriott may want to continue the current system of requiring resale owners to purchase Destination Points in order to enroll a week.  (I believe Marriott offers this option occasionally as a “special”.)


Will the new Integration Program eliminate or vastly reduce the usefulness of the StarOptions program?


Honestly, I don’t know.  I don’t think they would.  Vistana has a great internal exchange system.  It really doesn’t make sense to change it.  By making a change, Marriott could open itself to litigation.  Marriott would be changing a program benefit that purchasers relied upon when buying a week from Vistana.
The reason that I am not waiting for the program to be announced before making a purchase is because I believe Marriott will set a retroactive date for weeks that are eligible to be enrolled (Marriott set a retroactive date in 2010 for enrollment of Marriott weeks into the DP Program).

What do you think?  How would you set up an integrated program?


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## SueDonJ (Feb 29, 2020)

I think the simplest way to integrate is to allow Vistana Weeks Owners the exact same entry into the Destination Club that is offered to Marriott Weeks Owners, i.e. allow Vistana Weeks to be enrolled in the Destination Club and exchanged on an annual basis for an allotted amount (based on resort, unit size, unit view and seasonal designation factors) of Destination Club Points which can be used to exchange via the DC Exchange Company. At its most basic it's simply an additional "internal" exchange program that doesn't permanently replace any existing ownership usage options, but is subject to eligibility rules, an original Enrollment Fee and a separate annual Club Dues fee.

Honestly, I don't see Marriott reinventing the wheel, again, for Vistana integration. Their Destination Club internal exchange option is well-established at this point, anecdotal evidence is that Weeks Owners are happy with it, and it was apparent at the outset in 2010 that it's perfectly positioned to allow timeshares other than MVC Weeks (that come under the MVW umbrella or not) to play nicely in the new sandbox.


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## CPNY (Feb 29, 2020)

FamilyEsq said:


> How Would You Design the MVC/Vistana Integration?
> 
> I am trying to decide how to proceed under the new integration between MVC/Vistana.  No one, other than MVC corporate, knows the exact parameters of the integration.   The integration is important to me because I am deciding whether to pick up a Marriott trader or a Vistana StarOption generator.  I would like to know which one would be the most practical going forward.
> 
> ...


There are many variables. It’s tricky, many think the DC program will be the common currency and vistana owners would have to make a large purchase to buy in. Many believe that to be the fair way, many on the DC Side. They feel that they paid large sums of money to MVC and vistana owners didn’t so now is their time to pony up. I’ve heard the MVC investor presentation and one of the Marriott presenters referred to the vistana side as “they” almost as if it is still competition. He acknowledged his mistake with a joke about saying they and that it would take some time to get used to saying US. If that’s the mindset of those making the decisions behind a combined program, I fear the VSE owners may be disadvantaged, but I doubt it very much. 

There is another way of looking at it, and that is the fact that the vistana side has inventory in Mexico and other Caribbean locations that would blend well with the MVC family of resorts. They want that inventory so maybe they will allow the VSE owners a one time enrollment fee to be able to convert their units into the DC program and book units there, sort of like they did with their legacy MVC weeks owners, developer or resale. They could leave the resale owners out completely and let them sit in the VSN as their only way of booking, however I don’t see that as a likely case. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Others also feel that they may try to do away with any advantages of owning mandatory resorts. I don’t think they see the small amount of mandatory owners as a thorn since there aren’t as many as people think.

I could also see them incorporate interval as a mechanism for a common exchange using a common points currency. However it shakes out, I look for them to mirror the vistana tech side (one can only hope they do). Personally, I hope they don’t make changes to the VSN and they just offer enrollment when you want to convert star options to a CC to book any unit. Either way they have to make it beneficial since star option owners are happy with the VSN and II exchange. They will make it attractive for all customers. The happier the customer the more likely they are to buy more! Or talk about how great it is to own MVC to friends and family who are potential new customers.

My hope is that they leave everything as is on the VSN side if you choose to stay there and allow a one time enrollment fee for the ability to convert to a CC whether that be DC points or another vehicle for booking when you choose to play in that sand box.


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## CPNY (Feb 29, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> I think the simplest way to integrate is to allow Vistana Weeks Owners the exact same entry into the Destination Club that is offered to Marriott Weeks Owners, i.e. allow Vistana Weeks to be enrolled in the Destination Club and exchanged on an annual basis for an allotted amount (based on resort, unit size, unit view and seasonal designation factors) of Destination Club Points which can be used to exchange via the DC Exchange Company. At its most basic it's simply an additional "internal" exchange program that doesn't permanently replace any existing ownership usage options, but is subject to eligibility rules, an original Enrollment Fee and a separate annual Club Dues fee.
> 
> Honestly, I don't see Marriott reinventing the wheel, again, for Vistana integration. Their Destination Club internal exchange option is well-established at this point, anecdotal evidence is that Weeks Owners are happy with it, and it was apparent at the outset in 2010 that it's perfectly positioned to allow timeshares other than MVC Weeks (that come under the MVW umbrella or not) to play nicely in the new sandbox.


Inventory question. Can they take inventory repurchased through ROFR from VSE resorts and put it into a DC trust? I’d assume they could right? Or would allowing VSE owners to enroll put that inventory in the DC trust whenever that owner chooses to convert to DC points year to year? Whatever happens, we should find out this year, exciting stuff


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## Steve Fatula (Feb 29, 2020)

"MVC can easily adjust the point requirement cost for a stay at a particular resort"

Actually, they can't. Many discussions about this. Assuming you mean "let's make this resort as a whole cost more".


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## SueDonJ (Feb 29, 2020)

CPNY said:


> There are many variables. It’s tricky, many think the DC program will be the common currency and vistana owners would have to make a large purchase to buy in. Many believe that to be the fair way, many on the DC Side. They feel that they paid large sums of money to MVC and vistana owners didn’t so now is their time to pony up. Many on the vistana side feel opposite. Many did pony up and paid vistana/Starwood developer money at one point so why should they be hit up again? I’ve heard the MVC investor presentation and one of the Marriott presenters referred to the vistana side as “they” almost as if it is still competition. He acknowledged his mistake with a joke about saying they and that it would take some time to get used to saying US. If that’s the mindset of those making the decisions behind a combined program, I fear the VSE owners may be disadvantaged.
> There is another way of looking at it, and that is the fact that the vistana side has inventory in Mexico and other Caribbean locations that would blend well with the MVC family of resorts. They want that inventory so maybe they will allow the VSE owners a one time enrollment fee to be able to convert their units into the DC program and book units there, sort of like they did with their legacy MVC weeks owners, developer or resale. They could leave the resale owners out completely and let them sit in the VSN as their only way of booking, however I don’t see that as a likely case. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Others also feel that they will try to do away with any advantages of owning mandatory resorts. I don’t think they see the small amount of mandatory owners as a thorn since there aren’t as many as people think.
> 
> I could also see them incorporate interval as a mechanism for a common exchange using a common points currency. However it shakes out, look for them to mirror the vistana tech side (one can only hope they do). Personally, I hope they don’t make changes to the VSN and they just offer enrollment when you want to convert star options to a CC to book any unit. Either way they have to make it beneficial since star option owners are happy with the VSN and II exchange. They will make it attractive for all customers. The happier the customer the more likely they are to buy more! Or talk about how great it is to own MVC to friends and family who are potential new customers.



I'm not sure that I understand your first point - what do you mean by, "[Marriott owners] feel that they paid large sums of money to MVC and vistana owners didn't?" I thought you were talking about the enrollment fees for Marriott Weeks owners at first but then you say that you know Marriott assessed varying enrollment fees, so that leaves me thinking that you think many Marriott owners might now think that it should be taken into account that the Vistana Weeks weren't sold by Marriott?

I'm confused. 

But I'll say, as a Marriott Weeks owner who purchased direct at developer pricing, it didn't occur to me when they introduced the DC that owners who paid less than I did for the same or similar Weeks were "less deserving" (for want of a better term) of the DC enrollment option. The original enrollment fee schedule at the outset took direct-v-resale purchases into account, with the fees ranging from $595 for a single direct-purchase Week to $1995 for multiple external-resale Weeks. Considering that they weren't required to differentiate  at all, and/or that they could have assessed a much larger differential between direct- and external resale-purchases, they seemed to have struck a happy medium that - at least among the owners on TUG at the time - didn't cause consternation. If they do allow DC enrollment to Vistana Weeks Owners, it won't matter one iota to me, anyway, that these Weeks were not original Marriott purchases. But I will be surprised, and not happy, if the Enrollment Fees and eligibility rules for Vistana Weeks are much more enticing than they've historically been for Marriott Weeks.


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## Swice (Feb 29, 2020)

Your real question is which system to jump into-- Marriott or Vistana?   Regardless of how they combine, I think the best assumption is Marriott was/is bigger and was the acquirer in the merger.     The rules will favor Marriott.     No, they're not going to treat Vistana owners as trash.   Marriott will try to be enticing.    But I would recommend buying into the surviving system.   I can't imagine them blowing up both systems and starting from scratch... that would simply be too complicated.     They will somehow fold Vistana/Star Options into the Marriott system.


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## SueDonJ (Feb 29, 2020)

CPNY said:


> Inventory question. Can they take inventory repurchased through ROFR from VSE resorts and put it into a DC trust? I’d assume they could right? Or would allowing VSE owners to enroll put that inventory in the DC trust whenever that owner chooses to convert to DC points year to year? Whatever happens, we should find out this year, exciting stuff



From what I understand reading the Destination Club governing docs, any US-based inventory that MVW owns can be deposited into the DC Trust (which then fuels the DC Points sales engine,) excepting any Weeks for which the underlying governing docs would legally prohibit such a transfer. I'm not familiar with Vistana so have no idea if there are impediments to those Weeks being conveyed to a Trust in the same way that Marriott Weeks can be.

It's important to understand that enrollment of Weeks does not at all result in those Weeks being conveyed into the DC Trust - enrollment simply offers another usage option. Think of the Destination Club in three parts: the DC Trust to which Marriott-owned inventory can be permanently conveyed, the DC Trust Points available to be sold which correlate to the inventory conveyed to the DC Trust, and the DC Exchange Company through which owners of purchased DC Trust Points AND owners of enrolled Weeks who have elected to convert them to DC Exchange Points in any given year, can book available DC Exchange Company inventory. Owners of purchased DC Trust Points have access to inventory in the Trust and inventory in the DC Exchange Company. Owners of enrolled Weeks do not have access to inventory in the DC Trust until/unless they elect to convert the Weeks to DC Exchange Points AND until/unless Marriott manipulates that trust-conveyed inventory through the DC Exchange Company. (Historically, there are instances where the highest value/highest demand inventory in the Trust may not be made available via the DC Exchange Company immediately upon reservation windows opening but on the whole, we don't see prohibitive restrictions here - think in terms of inventory becoming available at the 12.5 mos window instead of the 13 mos.)


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## CPNY (Feb 29, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> From what I understand reading the Destination Club governing docs, any US-based inventory that MVW owns can be deposited into the DC Trust (which then fuels the DC Points sales engine,) excepting any Weeks for which the underlying governing docs would legally prohibit such a transfer. I'm not familiar with Vistana so
> 
> It's important to understand that enrollment of Weeks does not at all result in those Weeks being conveyed into the DC Trust - enrollment simply offers another usage option. Think of the Destination Club in three parts: the DC Trust to which Marriott-owned inventory can be conveyed, the DC Trust Points available to be sold which correlate to the inventory conveyed to the DC Trust, and the DC Exchange Company through which owners of purchased DC Trust Points AND owners of enrolled Weeks which are converted to DC Exchange Points, can book available DC Exchange Company inventory. Owners of enrolled Weeks do not have access to inventory in the DC Trust until/unless Marriott manipulates that inventory through the DC Exchange Company. (Historically, there are instances where the highest value/highest demand inventory in the Trust may not be made available via the DC Exchange Company immediately upon reservation windows opening but on the whole, we don't see prohibitive restrictions here - think in terms of inventory becoming available at the 12 mos window instead of the 13 mos.


So if you buy DC points you have access to the DC trust AND the DC exchange (where enrolled week owners pull inventory from using DC points converted). MVC puts inventory into the DC Exchange to be booked by ALL DC points holders, at their discretion. If they used DC as the common currency and allowed vistana to “enroll” we could essentially convert star options to DC points where we would pull the inventory from the DC Exchange. Thus, allowing three types of owners (DC Points owners, enrolled MVC Weeks owners, and enrolled VSE owners) to book from the DC exchange. If the enrolled converted week Does not result in the inventory to be put into the DC Exchange for others to book, where does that inventory end up? I’m just trying to see if that would be a way to get more inventory from the vistana side into the exchange.

I’m not aware of any governing docs that would prohibit any transfers. I’m sure Marriott execs are figuring what they can and cannot do legally as they mentioned in the investor day presentation. I have been pleased so far with the offerings on interval in the past few months. I don’t know if it’s from hanging around here or they are releasing more inventory but some nice resorts have been released. Harborside at Atlantis being deposited yesterday was the first time I’ve seen it’ll interval, although i hear it was sighted back in 2017.


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## pchung6 (Feb 29, 2020)

It is still my hope and believe Marriott will not change Vistana, but only enhance it. Vistana owners are mostly happy with Staroptions, it will be too expensive for Marriott to offend Vistana owners. I feel the best strategy is to offer Vistana opportunity to enroll or they can choose to stay with legacy VSN which I will do. I really wish I can pick one of these Harborside deposits, but I just dodged diamond princess trip earlier this month and still so scared, i have to pass this chance.


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## CPNY (Feb 29, 2020)

pchung6 said:


> It is still my hope and believe Marriott will not change Vistana, but only enhance it. Vistana owners are mostly happy with Staroptions, it will be too expensive for Marriott to offend Vistana owners. I feel the best strategy is to offer Vistana opportunity to enroll or they can choose to stay with legacy VSN which I will do. I really wish I can pick one of these Harborside deposits, but I just dodged diamond princess trip earlier this month and still so scared, i have to pass this chance.


Pick one up and go! I’m going in march, I have Italy booked in June, and have Belgium, Prague, Ukraine and Copenhagen in July/Aug. I hope this virus is over by then. Ughhhh really stinks.


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## Dean (Mar 1, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> "MVC can easily adjust the point requirement cost for a stay at a particular resort"
> 
> Actually, they can't. Many discussions about this. Assuming you mean "let's make this resort as a whole cost more".


They may not be able to for any internal usage but they can for any crossover option or upgrade system add on if they chose.  

As for how I'd do it, it would depend on whether I take a view as for what's best for me, the owners as a whole, Marriott or an average of the whole.  I'm not going through a long drawn out option of each situation but IMO, and I know it rubs some the wrong way, any new or crossover system will be centric to the DC higher points levels and likely will be included for the DC at the highest levels for any crossover system.  Whether that's true for a common currency going forward remains to be seen but I'm confident that those in the highest levels of MVC will fare better than most.  And it's likely the DC will be at the heart of any new or crossover system as it's basis.


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 1, 2020)

Dean said:


> They may not be able to for any internal usage but they can for any crossover option or upgrade system add on if they chose.
> 
> As for how I'd do it, it would depend on whether I take a view as for what's best for me, the owners as a whole, Marriott or an average of the whole.  I'm not going through a long drawn out option of each situation but IMO, and I know it rubs some the wrong way, any new or crossover system will be centric to the DC higher points levels and likely will be included for the DC at the highest levels for any crossover system.  Whether that's true for a common currency going forward remains to be seen but I'm confident that those in the highest levels of MVC will fare better than most.  And it's likely the DC will be at the heart of any new or crossover system as it's basis.



True Dean, but read the OP context. His full statement was:

"MVC’s best potential new customers are its existing DP owners. (The maintenance fees for DPs are among the highest in the MVC system and MVC can easily adjust the point requirement cost for a stay at a particular resort.) Current Vistana owners are probably next on the list."

So, to me, it says they can adjust DP points, and they cannot. That's all I was speaking to, nothing else, not any expansion, etc. I believe it was part of the reason he was thinking DP points would survive, they can adjust anything they want in other words.  I just don't like when people keep posting that to scare you away from points, the price is scary enough, lol. You may be correct on non internal, depends how it all plays out. And it's of course all guessing. I actually agree with your thoughts on how it might be structured and I think higher levels will fare better as well.


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## Dean (Mar 1, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> True Dean, but read the OP context. His full statement was:
> 
> "MVC’s best potential new customers are its existing DP owners. (The maintenance fees for DPs are among the highest in the MVC system and MVC can easily adjust the point requirement cost for a stay at a particular resort.) Current Vistana owners are probably next on the list."
> 
> So, to me, it says they can adjust DP points, and they cannot. That's all I was speaking to, nothing else, not any expansion, etc. I believe it was part of the reason he was thinking DP points would survive, they can adjust anything they want in other words.  I just don't like when people keep posting that to scare you away from points, the price is scary enough, lol. You may be correct on non internal, depends how it all plays out. And it's of course all guessing. I actually agree with your thoughts on how it might be structured and I think higher levels will fare better as well.


I think there's a lot to agree and disagree with on the OP but that'd be true for anything that any of us wrote that tried to be an all inclusive proposal.  Specific to the point on the best target audience, I think it's actually non MVC (Vistana/Westin) owners but ultimately it depends on the specifics.  Basically they'll want non MVC owners to "enroll" or "upgrade" and current MVC owners to add on.  Two things are for sure, that this won't be the last time we get to discuss this issue maybe heatedly at times and and that there will actually be winners and losers.  And I personally expect that in many people's eyes the current higher level VIP on the MVC side are likely to be comparative winners and that will tic some off.  I'm thinking this is going to be fun.


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## CaliSunshine (Mar 2, 2020)

The general consensus seems to be that VSN mandatory and all current VSN enrolled weeks will be allowed into the new program, maybe with a small buy in, but maybe just for free. VSN optional resale weeks may or may not. I personally think there's a good chance they will be as a one time thing, to increase inventory and because it costs Marriott nothing to let them in, and it doesn't even bump up resale values.

I think there was some speculation that there would be some rejiggering of point values for different resorts so it wouldn't be a straight StarOptions -> DC points conversion, but rather resorts and maybe specific weeks would have their values adjusted based on supply/demand. The one problem with that that I can see is the various Vistana points offerings. If they did rejigger the points values of weeks, then most likely 148.1K Aventuras will no longer have the same booking power as 148.1K Westin Flex and 148.1K Sheraton Flex. I think they'll avoid that to avoid upsetting brand new owners of their points programs.

Finally, there's a question about what to do about the mandatory resorts in Vistana. A lot of people have been bidding up mandatory weeks in Vistana recently based on the idea that mandatory VSN = mandatory DC. I don't personally think the parent company likes the idea of having these mandatory resale weeks be a back door into their "developer sales only" scheme. But it's a small chunk of the total inventory, so maybe it's not worth the lawsuit to remove the mandatory status.


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## ocdb8r (Mar 2, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> I think the simplest way to integrate is to allow Vistana Weeks Owners the exact same entry into the Destination Club that is offered to Marriott Weeks Owners, i.e. allow Vistana Weeks to be enrolled in the Destination Club and exchanged on an annual basis for an allotted amount (based on resort, unit size, unit view and seasonal designation factors) of Destination Club Points which can be used to exchange via the DC Exchange Company. At its most basic it's simply an additional "internal" exchange program that doesn't permanently replace any existing ownership usage options, but is subject to eligibility rules, an original Enrollment Fee and a separate annual Club Dues fee.
> 
> Honestly, I don't see Marriott reinventing the wheel, again, for Vistana integration. Their Destination Club internal exchange option is well-established at this point, anecdotal evidence is that Weeks Owners are happy with it, and it was apparent at the outset in 2010 that it's perfectly positioned to allow timeshares other than MVC Weeks (that come under the MVW umbrella or not) to play nicely in the new sandbox.



I generally agree with SueDonJ on this - the easiest and most logical way for MVC to approach this is the same way they did when they launched the DC.  They could look at each Vistana Resort and assign a DC points value to each week, likely in line with what they feel are similar MVC resorts in the DC Point system.  Vistana owners would be given an opportunity to "enroll" in the DC Point system and similar to the DC Point launch, the cost to enroll could be lower for direct purchasers and higher for resale purchases.  Then DC Points just becomes another "option" for Vistana owners - each year you could 1) book your home resort week, 2) elect for StarOptions to book other Vistana Resorts or 3) elect for DC Points to book MVC resorts. 

However, there are a couple of wrinkles:

1) The biggest wrinkle that I just do not know how they overcome is that there is now a (growing) group of Vistana Owners that own no "week".  They have bought into one of the various Vistana points trusts.  How do you fold them into the DC Point system unless you create some sort of StarOptions to DC Point exchange rate?  If you create such a direct exchange rate for Vistana Points trusts owners, how do you explain not using that same rate for weeks owners (who's weeks have already been assigned a StarOption value)? While MVC could certainly offer weeks owners a set number of DC Points base on the value of their week and DC Point owners a set conversion rate, you risk angering one group over the other.  Owners with high demand resorts/weeks are likely to come out as winners while owners with low demand resorts/weeks are likely to come out as losers and I suspect Vistana points trust owners would come out somewhere in between.  That all may be good and fine, but I think it's not a recipe for success and participation.

2) Any system that effectively makes election of DC Points just another "option" for Vistana risks lack of participation.  MVC really wants something that actually opens up Vistana inventory to DC Point owners and creates fairly frictionless exchange between the two systems. If I were MVC I would just rip the whole bandaid off now and try to create a more truly integrated system.  As a Vistana owner, that creates a lot of uncertainty that I don't like....but I can't deny it might be in the best long term interests of MVC.


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## CPNY (Mar 2, 2020)

Everyone making some good points. Whatever the change is, let’s just hope everyone is “happy”. Although we know not everyone will be. In the end, if I can keep everything I have now, I’m fine.


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## Dean (Mar 2, 2020)

CPNY said:


> Everyone making some good points. Whatever the change is, let’s just hope everyone is “happy”. Although we know not everyone will be. In the end, if I can keep everything I have now, I’m fine.


IMO it's a given that not everyone will be happy.  I don't think the issue for Marriott is as much making them happy as it is getting them to buy more.  Obviously they don't want to make people so unhappy and disgusted they walk away but making them uneasy and a little fearful can translate into sales.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 2, 2020)

Dean said:


> IMO it's a given that not everyone will be happy.  I don't think the issue for Marriott is as much making them happy as it is getting them to buy more.  Obviously they don't want to make people so unhappy and disgusted they walk away but making them uneasy and a little fearful can translate into sales.



Whatever they introduce I fully expect that the initial reaction from Vistana owners (who don't also own Marriott and so aren't already somewhat familiar) will be primarily unhappiness and dissatisfaction with a lot of grumbling here on TUG, after which those who see value and participate from the start will be able to tame the masses with their practical experience. That's what happened during the first few years after the DC was introduced, mainly because it's the natural reaction to any type of change.

I think Vistana owners are actually in a better position than we were because our speculation went on for years during which we were assaulted with rumors and innuendo from a number of fronts, some of it wildly fanciful as things turned out. We had no way of correlating what we were hearing/discussing to an existing product because Marriott hadn't ever offered anything remotely like the DC. Vistana owners are at least somewhat more grounded in reality than Marriott owners were back before 6/20/10, because they already know their own Trust/points-based Star Options product AND they have the benefit of Marriott owners sharing what they know about the Destination Club.


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## CPNY (Mar 2, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> Whatever they introduce I fully expect that the initial reaction from Vistana owners (who don't also own Marriott and so aren't already somewhat familiar) will be primarily unhappiness and dissatisfaction with a lot of grumbling here on TUG, after which those who see value and participate from the start will be able to tame the masses with their practical experience. That's what happened during the first few years after the DC was introduced, mainly because it's the natural reaction to any type of change.
> 
> I think Vistana owners are actually in a better position than we were because our speculation went on for years during which we were assaulted with rumors and innuendo from a number of fronts, some of it wildly fanciful as things turned out. We had no way of correlating what we were hearing/discussing to an existing product because Marriott hadn't ever offered anything remotely like the DC. Vistana owners are at least somewhat more grounded in reality than Marriott owners were back before 6/20/10, because they already know their own Trust/points-based Star Options product AND they have the benefit of Marriott owners sharing what they know about the Destination Club.


I think the majority of vistana owners are excited to see how their vistana ownership may open up to more locations within Marriott. I think the grumblings May come if MVC makes drastic changes to the VSN for those of us who are happy in our limited resort bubble. If the changes are modeled after what MVC did back in 2010 with allowing enrollment for the best of both worlds I think there wouldn’t be much grumbling.

The thing i feel like I’m always trying to understand is inventory, Where it comes and goes from. If it’s a separate trust for a combined program and the VSN stays the same with my current availability, which sometimes isn’t the best, but doesn’t get any worse, there will be no grumblings from me. That’s saying a lot lol.

If I had to enroll my three weeks I have with vistana, I would IF I can stay in the VSN as well. If I have to “remove” weeks from the VSN to convert to DC points, I’d have to think about it. Short term I may be happy but I wouldn’t want to cut my nose to spite my face. In 2010 when they allowed those resale and developer owners to enroll, was there a timeframe? Or are those weeks able to be enrolled for that same fee today ? I also wonder if they would allow MVC resale owners post 2010 the ability to re enroll since it’s a new combined program?


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## dsmrp (Mar 2, 2020)

Earlier there were reports, perhaps anecdotal, that Marriott would be announcing their Vistana integration plans around mid to late February.  Anyone have a new guesstimate?  Maybe they are still working on software systems integration, conversion of databases, new software ??  And hopefully better training of their staff on the changes 

DH and I have a stay planned in late March-early April.  And a lot more time than usual to go to an owner update and analyze afterwards. I am hopeful for a substantive update where we might actually consider options.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 2, 2020)

CPNY said:


> I think the majority of vistana owners are excited to see how their vistana ownership may open up to more locations within Marriott. I think the grumblings May come if MVC makes drastic changes to the VSN for those of us who are happy in our limited resort bubble. If the changes are modeled after what MVC did back in 2010 with allowing enrollment for the best of both worlds I think there wouldn’t be much grumbling.
> 
> The thing i feel like I’m always trying to understand is inventory, Where it comes and goes from. If it’s a separate trust for a combined program and the VSN stays the same with my current availability, which sometimes isn’t the best, but doesn’t get any worse, there will be no grumblings from me. That’s saying a lot lol.
> 
> If I had to enroll my three weeks I have with vistana, I would IF I can stay in the VSN as well. If I have to “remove” weeks from the VSN to convert to DC points, I’d have to think about it. Short term I may be happy but I wouldn’t want to cut my nose to spite my face. In 2010 when they allowed those resale and developer owners to enroll, was there a timeframe? Or are those weeks able to be enrolled for that same fee today ? I also wonder if they would allow MVC resale owners post 2010 the ability to re enroll since it’s a new combined program?



I'm not at all familiar with the Star Options/VSN/Vistana Trust thing to even begin to guess at how that might be integrated into Marriott's DC, so I'm staying away from questions specific to those who only own Points in the Vistana system. For owned Weeks that can be converted to StarOptions, though, it seems as though the DC enrollment could just be another usage option for the underlying Week - I'm thinking along the lines of allowing enrolled Weeks to be used in all the ways they can be used now including converting them to StarOptions PLUS an option to convert to DC Points. (All this assuming a simple DC-enrollment is what happens, and of course my guess is as good as anybody's.)

Rather than trying to remember all the eligibility rules and enrollment pricing, and probably getting something wrong in the process, information below is taken from the TUG FAQ - MVC DESTINATIONS Points Program sticky thread in this forum:

_All US and Caribbean resort Weeks purchased prior to 6/20/10, and all European resort Weeks purchased prior to 6/18/12, are eligible to be enrolled in the MVC Destinations program. Caribbean resort Weeks purchased direct from Marriott between 6/20/10 and 12/26/12 are also eligible for enrollment._
_Weeks purchased on the external resale market on or after the 6/20/10 (US and Caribbean) and 6/18/12 (European) introduction dates are NOT eligible for enrollment._
_Weeks purchased direct from Marriott Resales Operations are eligible if a purchase of DC Trust Points (equal to the amount of points for which the purchased Week(s) may be converted) is made within 12 months of the Weeks purchase._
_In 2015 MVW introduced a recurring DC Points sales incentive that allows enrollment of otherwise-ineligible Weeks with a purchase of DC Trust Points. Each recurrence is subject to incentive begin-and-end dates, specific cut-off dates for the resale Weeks, and specific Trust Points minimums. See this ongoing thread:  Ongoing Sales Incentive - Enrolling Post-6/20/10 Weeks [Merged]_
_As of 6/14/12 the Enrollment Fee has been increased to $2,395. Enrollment incentives include varying amounts of one-time "PlusPoints" which expire one year from date of issue and are restricted to reservations made within 60 days of check-in at Marriott Vacation Club Collection properties only._

_For historical context, the Enrollment Fee at the DC introduction ranged between $595 and $1,995 with an Enrollment Incentive of 800 one-time Exchange Points._
_In 2014 MVW introduced a recurring Rollback Pricing incentive that allows enrollment of eligible Weeks at the original fees. Each recurrence is subject to incentive begin-and-end dates. Navigate through the "Enroll Now" process on owners.marriottvacationclub.com for current pricing._
_The Enrollment Fee for eligible Weeks purchased prior to 6/20/10 may be waived if you view specific Webinars offered by MVW. Scroll down to the "UNDERSTANDING THE BENEFITS OF ENROLLMENT" section on this Owner Learning Center page._


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## CPNY (Mar 2, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> I'm not at all familiar with the Star Options/VSN/Vistana Trust thing to even begin to guess at how that might be integrated into Marriott's DC, so I'm staying away from questions specific to those who only own Points in the Vistana system. For owned Weeks that can be converted to StarOptions, though, it seems as though the DC enrollment could just be another usage option for the underlying Week - I'm thinking along the lines of allowing enrolled Weeks to be used in all the ways they can be used now including converting them to StarOptions PLUS an option to convert to DC Points. (All this assuming a simple DC-enrollment is what happens, and of course my guess is as good as anybody's.)
> 
> Rather than trying to remember all the eligibility rules and enrollment pricing, and probably getting something wrong in the process, information below is taken from the TUG FAQ - MVC DESTINATIONS Points Program sticky thread in this forum:
> 
> ...


Excellent. I do hope it’s just another way to use our points. Kind of excited to see how it all shakes out and which speculation posts were right. I just want to book the resorts I go to now and I’ll be A-OK.

thank you for the info! Gives a lot of insight of historical events which could be an indication of future plans.


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## Dean (Mar 3, 2020)

SueDonJ said:


> Whatever they introduce I fully expect that the initial reaction from Vistana owners (who don't also own Marriott and so aren't already somewhat familiar) will be primarily unhappiness and dissatisfaction with a lot of grumbling here on TUG, after which those who see value and participate from the start will be able to tame the masses with their practical experience. That's what happened during the first few years after the DC was introduced, mainly because it's the natural reaction to any type of change.
> 
> I think Vistana owners are actually in a better position than we were because our speculation went on for years during which we were assaulted with rumors and innuendo from a number of fronts, some of it wildly fanciful as things turned out. We had no way of correlating what we were hearing/discussing to an existing product because Marriott hadn't ever offered anything remotely like the DC. Vistana owners are at least somewhat more grounded in reality than Marriott owners were back before 6/20/10, because they already know their own Trust/points-based Star Options product AND they have the benefit of Marriott owners sharing what they know about the Destination Club.


I think there are still quite a few people somewhat upset about the way the DC points translated, esp with the skim.  As for the non MVC components and how they view this, it really depends on how the options end up, the pricing and their perception of what they're losing in the process.  TUG can be a 2 edged sword but I get the sense that the additional information may make it more upsetting for them at least in the short term, we'll see.  I do agree that there should be some fun thread's as more specific information is known.


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 3, 2020)

Yep, and people are still mad about the made up concept you call a skim. Makes no sense to me. (This will likely tell you who). There will always be people who don't like any new system. Even if they don't buy into it. Still see posts from people who won't ever use DC points due to the so called skim. Somehow, they believe they are cheated by something they never have to use.


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## Dean (Mar 3, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> Yep, and people are still mad about the made up concept you call a skim. Makes no sense to me. (This will likely tell you who). There will always be people who don't like any new system. Even if they don't buy into it. Still see posts from people who won't ever use DC points due to the so called skim. Somehow, they believe they are cheated by something they never have to use.


Personally I feel a points system is inherently more inefficient unless it's limited to the underlying weeks (like Wyndham tends to do).  A system with only points hides the adjustment but that wasn't possible when the DC system.  And I do feel it reasonable they average points over a season.  Even then I feel they went overboard in certain places with the adjustment so I see where people are aggravated with it but as you correctly point out they lose nothing they had before unless one feels they have a more difficult time making weeks reservations which is possible.  The other issue that I think caused emotions was they didn't just come out and honestly address the issue directly which I feel would have been best.


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 3, 2020)

I love the DC points system for exactly the reason it doesn't tie into underlying weeks. Wouldn't want it any other way. I want to be able to go whatever day I want for however long I want ideally without messing with II, etc. It's definitely more inefficient from an inventory point of view. Hopefully, any Vistana integration does not require the use of II, that's my biggest wish.


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## ocdb8r (Mar 3, 2020)

dsmrp said:


> Earlier there were reports, perhaps anecdotal, that Marriott would be announcing their Vistana integration plans around mid to late February.  Anyone have a new guesstimate?  Maybe they are still working on software systems integration, conversion of databases, new software ??



I think this timeline emerged as a result of various reports from on-site discussions that MVC was indicating something allowing reciprocal access would be launched by February.  It was indeed when they launched reciprocal preference in II trading.   To me, this was a prime example of how salespeople blow a lot of smoke, even when there's a small truth behind their statements.

On a true common points currency/internal system, the Oct 4 2019 investor day presentation indicated they were targeting announcing something mid to late this year (2020).  They also indicated they had no timeline on when they might transition to selling a single points based product, but that this was their eventual aim.


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## bazzap (Mar 4, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> I love the DC points system for exactly the reason it doesn't tie into underlying weeks. Wouldn't want it any other way. I want to be able to go whatever day I want for however long I want ideally without messing with II, etc. It's definitely more inefficient from an inventory point of view. Hopefully, any Vistana integration does not require the use of II, that's my biggest wish.


II MVC - MVC exchanges still work well for us.
We just own MVC “deeded” weeks, but we also have these enrolled and elect for DC Points sometimes. 
This seems to offer us the best combination of lower MFs and II fees with increased flexibility of usage.


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## ocdb8r (Mar 4, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> I love the DC points system for exactly the reason it doesn't tie into underlying weeks. Wouldn't want it any other way. I want to be able to go whatever day I want for however long I want ideally without messing with II, etc. It's definitely more inefficient from an inventory point of view. Hopefully, any Vistana integration does not require the use of II, that's my biggest wish.



I'm not sure where anyone got the idea that the DC point system is NOT tied to underlying weeks.  The DC Point trust itself is comprised of underlying weeks which have been assigned a point value.  This is made clear in the legal construction of the trust; MVC can only sell points for which they have deposited sufficiently valued underlying weeks into the trust.  And it is this precise point that gets some people up in arms about "skim" - MVC values any given week as X within the trust but only provides owners who trade their week in for DC Points as X minus some number of points (referred to on this board as the skim).  So in effect you have:

Trust Value of week = X
Number of points required to trade INTO said week also = X
Number of points provided to a weeks owner who elects DC Points = X - (skim)

I also note that this is a bit separate and distinct from where MVC also made adjustments to the "seasons" that existed in the weeks platform.  This further created some frustration and confusion as owners of some weeks not only suffered from MVC "skim" in the number of points they received, but also received a "blended value" of all the weeks in the season they owned. 

I am no longer an owner, but when the system launched I was frustrated at both the skim and my perceived undervaluing of some weeks.  However, over time I got over it as MVC charges very little in the way of transaction fees and while they clearly gain something from the "skim" (I suspect they use this as both a way to balance out internal demand and then to rent), I appreciated not constantly getting pinged for fees every time I made or changed a reservation.


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 4, 2020)

ocdb8r said:


> I'm not sure where anyone got the idea that the DC point system is NOT tied to underlying weeks.  The DC Point trust itself is comprised of underlying weeks which have been assigned a point value.  This is made clear in the legal construction of the trust; MVC can only sell points for which they have deposited sufficiently valued underlying weeks into the trust.  And it is this precise point that gets some people up in arms about "skim" - MVC values any given week as X within the trust but only provides owners who trade their week in for DC Points as X minus some number of points (referred to on this board as the skim).  So in effect you have:
> 
> Trust Value of week = X
> Number of points required to trade INTO said week also = X
> ...



There is no Skim in my eyes, only an invented concept, that argument was in another thread and don't want top re-visit it. I was on csalter2 side of course and yes I understand how it works, and no I don't think there is "profit" from it as discussed in the other thread. One would of course never ever elect for points only to use them for a week at the same resort. However, I always use points at my home result and get more than a weeks value out of it by using the cheaper weekdays and within 60 days, so where's the skim? DC points USERS are not tied to underlying weeks, as in, I can make a reservation for any number of days, not just the underlying week. This is what Dean was talking about above, it makes it more inefficient than weeks was the point as there will always be days that will likely go unused. This is a perfect example though, no one was ever forced to elect for points, it's not a downside at all! It's an additional OPTION.


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## bazzap (Mar 4, 2020)

There quite clearly is a skim.
Whether, as an owner, you accept the skim as a reasonable “cost” for the additional flexibility the DC Points programme offers is a personal decision.
I accept it, even though for one of our Caribbean resorts the effect is is especially painful.


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 4, 2020)

If you define a new invented term that means the formula you say means skim, the defined word exists, yes and the formula is real. However, the term means more than that, the claim is you get less than you put in which is clearly *not* the case. Used improperly it may be the case. Thus, it's not a real issue to me*. *It's a made up concept to say points are bad, nothing else*. *This has already been discussed in another thread. Obviously, many see the skim and somehow feel threatened by it, that's fine. I will never agree with that view. That's what I mean. It's a concept often cited here on Tug in an angry manner to say I will never use points or buy points due to this. By all means, don't! But you're kidding yourself. I do agree with your point about additional flexibility. But that's only part of it. I get way more from elected points than the underlying week. To me, it's like saying if I trade my oceanfront MOC week in II, and get a terrible resort somewhere, that II is useless. Just like the argument here, does that mean II is useless? No!, No one would do such a thing.

In my case, I can get 18.7 nights in my same season at my same resort for the elected points value, all in a 1BR. The resort is a 2BR lockoff. So, without II, you'd get 7 days 1BR, and 7 days studio. So, how does the negatively used term skim affect me? As you can see in the post above from *ocdb8r, *he admits his first thoughts about being frustrated were misplaced as he later says he enjoyed it.


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## bazzap (Mar 4, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> If you define a new invented term that means the formula you say means skim, the defined word exists, yes and the formula is real. However, the term means more than that, the claim is you get less than you put in which is clearly *not* the case. Used improperly it may be the case. Thus, it's not a real issue to me*. *It's a made up concept to say points are bad, nothing else*. *This has already been discussed in another thread. Obviously, many see the skim and somehow feel threatened by it, that's fine. I will never agree with that view. That's what I mean. It's a concept often cited here on Tug in an angry manner to say I will never use points or buy points due to this. By all means, don't! But you're kidding yourself. I do agree with your point about additional flexibility. But that's only part of it. I get way more from elected points than the underlying week. To me, it's like saying if I trade my oceanfront MOC week in II, and get a terrible resort somewhere, that II is useless. Just like the argument here, does that mean II is useless? No!, No one would do such a thing.
> 
> In my case, I can get 18.7 nights in my same season at my same resort for the elected points value, all in a 1BR. The resort is a 2BR lockoff. So, without II, you'd get 7 days 1BR, and 7 days studio. So, how does the negatively used term skim affect me? As you can see in the post above from *ocdb8r, *he admits his first thoughts about being frustrated were misplaced as he later says he enjoyed it.


For us there is a “skim”, but it is selective and relative.
For 1 of our 5 resorts, there is no skim at all, which has a very positive impact for us.
For 1 of our 5, it has an especially negative impact given the points allocation, which means we will never elect for Points.
For the other 3, we get a good deal by electing for Points, so we often do.
Overall, we understand and accept the effect of the skim, but we recognise that it exists.


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## Dean (Mar 4, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> There is no Skim in my eyes, only an invented concept, that argument was in another thread and don't want top re-visit it. I was on csalter2 side of course and yes I understand how it works, and no I don't think there is "profit" from it as discussed in the other thread. One would of course never ever elect for points only to use them for a week at the same resort. However, I always use points at my home result and get more than a weeks value out of it by using the cheaper weekdays and within 60 days, so where's the skim? DC points USERS are not tied to underlying weeks, as in, I can make a reservation for any number of days, not just the underlying week. This is what Dean was talking about above, it makes it more inefficient than weeks was the point as there will always be days that will likely go unused. This is a perfect example though, no one was ever forced to elect for points, it's not a downside at all! It's an additional OPTION.


I made the reference in the other thread because it's the word that's been used on TUG over a number of years by some to denote the points drain for conversion to points from weeks.  Personally I understand it and why they might have set it up this way but I also understand why it might bother some.  It doesn't me largely because I understand it's their sandbox, I can chose to play or not and if I use my weeks I lose nothing.  I love the DC system for much the same reasons as I believe you do, that it gives me flexibility and options.  I use the weeks system mostly and supplement my travels with DC/Trust points and with exchanges plus my other systems and they all work together nicely.


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## TravelTime (Mar 4, 2020)

Has anything actually been announced about the Marriott/Vistana integration?


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 4, 2020)

Yeah, in one case, I have a non lockoff resort. For that it's a no brainer, I always elect for points as I rarely go to the same place twice and 1 week just doesn't cut it these days. I did buy it with that in mind though.

Isn't there a few resorts that were added after they stopped selling weeks, so, really there are no weeks anyone owns?

As far as I understand it, there is at least 1 resort (I thought) where they got more points for electing than the week costs. I suppose you would call that a negative skim. Bazzap has a resort with 0 "skim"? My objection is the use of the term to denote a terrible awful cheating type meaning and the continued attempt to justify that by saying you can't get your own week, which no one would of course do. Nor does anyone have to elect if they find no value. So, I've never understood why that matters to anyone, just do with your week what you always did. It's a pet peeve of mine lately.

What this does illustrate is why there will definitely be Vistana folks unhappy with any merged program as people view the same thing so differently. Same for the Marriott folks who some will undoubtedly not like something about it.


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 4, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> Has anything actually been announced about the Marriott/Vistana integration?



Other than the preference for trading in II, not that I am aware of. Supposedly late this year. Good to see you back!


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## FamilyEsq (Mar 4, 2020)

Does anyone think Marriott will open up enrollment for Marriott resale weeks as part of the integration?


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 4, 2020)

FamilyEsq said:


> Does anyone think Marriott will open up enrollment for Marriott resale weeks as part of the integration?



I don't think they will.


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## Dean (Mar 4, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> Yeah, in one case, I have a non lockoff resort. For that it's a no brainer, I always elect for points as I rarely go to the same place twice and 1 week just doesn't cut it these days. I did buy it with that in mind though.
> 
> Isn't there a few resorts that were added after they stopped selling weeks, so, really there are no weeks anyone owns?
> 
> ...


I don't want to get into a big discussion of the issue and I find it not a big deal myself but I think it was well documented that overall there were less points than the cost at the majority of weeks resorts generally somewhere close to double digits, sometimes more usually a little less  If one wanted they could go back to the early days of the DC (2010/11) and dig out those threads where it was analyzed ad nauseam.  Personally I find it is what it is but I do understand why some are aggravated with it.


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## CPNY (Mar 4, 2020)

Dean said:


> I don't want to get into a big discussion of the issue and I find it not a big deal myself but I think it was well documented that overall there were less points than the cost at the majority of weeks resorts generally somewhere close to double digits, sometimes more usually a little less  If one wanted they could go back to the early days of the DC (2010/11) and dig out those threads where it was analyzed ad nauseam.  Personally I find it is what it is but I do understand why some are aggravated with it.


I’m not that up to speed with MVC DC, skim, weeks etc since I own vistana. However, does skim matter? If you want your week you have it, no points needed. If you want a different week you can always exchange, correct? I get feeling “cheated” about not having the same amount of points your own week is worth but when you think about it, if you bought a resale week cheap and then was able to enroll pre 2010 for a small fee, aren’t you already ahead of the game? You have the best of 3 worlds!


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 4, 2020)

Dean said:


> I don't want to get into a big discussion of the issue and I find it not a big deal myself but I think it was well documented that overall there were less points than the cost at the majority of weeks resorts generally somewhere close to double digits, sometimes more usually a little less  If one wanted they could go back to the early days of the DC (2010/11) and dig out those threads where it was analyzed ad nauseam.  Personally I find it is what it is but I do understand why some are aggravated with it.



Fully and totally aware of that, it's just not what I said so not sure why you posted that. This is merely an example of earlier post about why you will never have everyone happy with a change. Don't want to pollute more the question originally asked, I've done that enough! I'd love for you to inform me of any reason why that would aggravate anyone without discussing more here. Sent PM to discuss offline if you wish.


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## bazzap (Mar 5, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> Yeah, in one case, I have a non lockoff resort. For that it's a no brainer, I always elect for points as I rarely go to the same place twice and 1 week just doesn't cut it these days. I did buy it with that in mind though.
> 
> Isn't there a few resorts that were added after they stopped selling weeks, so, really there are no weeks anyone owns?
> 
> ...


The one resort I was referring to with 0 “skim” is Phuket Beach Club.
We receive an allocation of 3270 Points for each enrolled Platinum Week and it takes 3270 Points to book a Platinum Week.


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## ocdb8r (Mar 5, 2020)

bazzap said:


> The one resort I was referring to with 0 “skim” is Phuket Beach Club.
> We receive an allocation of 3270 Points for each enrolled Platinum Week and it takes 3270 Points to book a Platinum Week.



That is not entirely correct.  You cannot book Lunar New Year with 3270 points...and if you're in Phase 1, you cannot book weeks 51/52 with 3270 points...however, in those cases you could book those weeks directly with your ownership.  And, the situation is much worse for owners of Gold weeks, where several Gold weeks cost more in points than you would get from MVC should you elect DC points. 

I'm not sure why the topic gets everyone so heated.  I have never suspected MVC did this for nefarious reasons.  I suspect they adjusted point allocations (both the skim and seasonal adjustments) to better reflect actual demand and to provide them with some cushion points to even out the system during the transition.  I also have no doubt that in some cases it nets points the MVC can control and can use for rental.  None of that makes my blood boil...even back when it was first introduced.  It was more an annoyance than anything...


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## Dean (Mar 5, 2020)

CPNY said:


> I’m not that up to speed with MVC DC, skim, weeks etc since I own vistana. However, does skim matter? If you want your week you have it, no points needed. If you want a different week you can always exchange, correct? I get feeling “cheated” about not having the same amount of points your own week is worth but when you think about it, if you bought a resale week cheap and then was able to enroll pre 2010 for a small fee, aren’t you already ahead of the game? You have the best of 3 worlds!


It doesn't matter to me but I was acknowledging that it does to some, never did.  But I think a few people are still bitter about it which is why I mentioned it.


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## CPNY (Mar 5, 2020)

Dean said:


> It doesn't matter to me but I was acknowledging that it does to some, never did.  But I think a few people are still bitter about it which is why I mentioned it.


I agree. From reading it does sound that some are still miffed. Please don’t take my comment to mean you were upset about it. I was really just trying to find the positive in getting an enrolled week


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## Dean (Mar 5, 2020)

CPNY said:


> I agree. From reading it does sound that some are still miffed. Please don’t take my comment to mean you were upset about it. I was really just trying to find the positive in getting an enrolled week


Sure, there are positives and cost more for some than others.


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## CPNY (Mar 5, 2020)

Dean said:


> Sure, there are positives and cost more for some than others.


Aren’t the maintenance fees more with the same amount of DC points?


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## bazzap (Mar 5, 2020)

ocdb8r said:


> That is not entirely correct.  You cannot book Lunar New Year with 3270 points...and if you're in Phase 1, you cannot book weeks 51/52 with 3270 points...however, in those cases you could book those weeks directly with your ownership.  And, the situation is much worse for owners of Gold weeks, where several Gold weeks cost more in points than you would get from MVC should you elect DC points.
> 
> I'm not sure why the topic gets everyone so heated.  I have never suspected MVC did this for nefarious reasons.  I suspect they adjusted point allocations (both the skim and seasonal adjustments) to better reflect actual demand and to provide them with some cushion points to even out the system during the transition.  I also have no doubt that in some cases it nets points the MVC can control and can use for rental.  None of that makes my blood boil...even back when it was first introduced.  It was more an annoyance than anything...


Well I guess nothing is ever totally simple.
You are correct that there are a few very specific exceptions at PBC just for Christmas/New Year and Chinese New Year.
However, unlike all other MVC resorts, the entire Platinum season minus these 3 weeks can be booked with the points you get for electing your enrolled weeks.
Also, as you say, Christmas/New Year weeks are only available to be booked anyway by owners of Platinum Phase 1 weeks (not Phases 2 or 3) or week 51/week 52 fixed weeks owners.
I hadn’t planned to go into that level of detail, but fair enough just under 90% of all Platinum season weeks are available “skim” free.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 5, 2020)

At the outset there was massive confusion surrounding the DC, and that's entirely Marriott's fault because of the way it was dropped. After years of speculation fueled by rampant rumors and warnings among the sales staff, shortly after midnight on Sunday, 6/20/10, the owners' website changed to include a blurb about "Introducing a new and exciting option!" or some other such simple nonsense, extremely limited information pertaining to our individual ownerships, and the links to all the governing docs. We were left to fend for ourselves and almost immediately the outcry about skim began. Except many, MANY, thought that enrollment in the DC meant surrendering your Week permanently for DC Points, so OF COURSE people were ticked off thinking that the allotted number of DC Points would in many cases mean you couldn't book the Week you owned if you enrolled it. How could anyone NOT be ticked off if that were the case?!?! Believe us when we tell you, it took the first couple YEARS to push back against that misperception - once the outcry started it just steamrolled and no doubt that initial negative reaction persists. I don't doubt that there are still some who might believe it.

Now it's generally understood that the skim is a matter to consider because even if after enrollment you can book the Week you own as you always could, there still can be some loss of exchange value when converting a Week to DC Points. The comparison must be made to the exchange value that a particular Week had historically gotten from using II - if you were used to getting uptrades from II (a 2BR for a 1BR, a newer/higher-demand resort for an older, etc) then it's likely you'll get less exchange value from the DC. For those of us who were used to getting less from II, though, the DC is an improvement. For example my non-lockoff 3BR SurfWatch weeks hadn't ever exchanged for 3BR's in II because 3BR's are rare in II, but with the DC it's possible to get 3BR's OR 2BR's with a balance of DC Points remaining. It wasn't until everyone griped about the DC that I realized there was a word for what II was shorting me - and that word is skim. 

The other thing about the DC skim is that it impacts like-for-like as far as unit sizes - in II there is at least a chance of getting a 2BR highest-demand Hawaii Week with a 2BR lowest-demand Florida Week. In the DC that's pretty much impossible unless your Week is highest-season/best view and you use its DC Points for a lower-season/least view exchange. This matters to some and not so much to others, because in II there are no guarantees for unit views anyway.

So the skim is definitely a factor, no doubt. But it's not a factor that impacts every owner the same which is why it's important to understand how your particular ownership will be impacted, rather than following the herd mentality and immediately glomming onto the worst prevailing suppositions.


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 5, 2020)

The so called skim is a factor only if you enroll and elect for points, an optional activity. Therefore in my eyes, not a factor! My example stands, I get 18 1BR nights on points in my own resort in my own season vs 7 1BR nights and 7 studio nights. Admittedly, this is within 60 days (which I 100% have always succeeded at ) and 5 night stays, but points are not weeks, there is no need to always compare them to 7 nights. This is the way I use points, I never ever get a 7 night stay, it's either 12 or 5. So, to say the skim is always a negative is simply untrue. Those who love to say so are always comparing a week vs 7 nights in the worst example resort. It's not the only way to use points! I have never, as in not once since the DC program originated, experienced a negative effect due to this "skim". If I did, I made a wrong choice! And of course we have the other benefits of enrollment, but not even speaking of those. I will even put those aside for comparison.

Susan has been a defender over time against the misinformation of the DC program. I see it differently for the reasons above, but, mostly I agree with her. The point of this is a statement was made that perhaps everyone will be happy with whatever integration comes. This is an example of why that is impossible! There are so many ways to use timeshares that someone will always feel as if they lost. It's 10 years later and people are still upset.

I'll add an addendum.... The difference with the II skim is that they used to be non Marriott company. So, you couldn't blame Marriott for that. But now you can!


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## bazzap (Mar 5, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> The so called skim is a factor only if you enroll and elect for points, an optional activity. Therefore in my eyes, not a factor! My example stands, I get 18 1BR nights on points in my own resort in my own season vs 7 1BR nights and 7 studio nights. Admittedly, this is within 60 days (which I 100% have always succeeded at ) and 5 night stays, but points are not weeks, there is no need to always compare them to 7 nights. This is the way I use points, I never ever get a 7 night stay, it's either 12 or 5. So, to say the skim is always a negative is simply untrue. Those who love to say so are always comparing a week vs 7 nights in the worst example resort. It's not the only way to use points! I have never, as it not once since the DC program originated, experienced a negative effect due to this "skim". If I did, I made a wrong choice! And of course we have the other benefits of enrollment, but not even speaking of those. I will even put those aside for comparison.
> 
> Susan has been a defender over time against the misinformation of the DC program. I see it differently for the reasons above, but, mostly I agree with her. The point of this is a statement was made that perhaps everyone will be happy with whatever integration comes. This is an example of why that is impossible! There are so many ways to use timeshares that someone will always feel as if they lost. It's 10 years later and people are still upset.
> 
> I'll add an addendum.... The difference with the II skim is that they used to be non Marriott company. So, you couldn't blame Marriott for that. But now you can!


At the end of the day, we all have to use our MVC ownership in the way which best suits us.
We mostly use our weeks for home resort stays, locking off where we can to get 2 weeks for 1.
Sometimes we lock off and use Interval exchange to get 2 weeks for 1 to stay at other MVC resorts.
Where our enrolled weeks have relatively poor points allocation, if we are not staying at our home resort, we use
Interval exchange to stay at other MVC resorts.
Where our enrolled weeks have good points allocation, if we are not staying at our home resort, we elect and use DC points to stay at other MVC resorts maximising the cheaper Sunday to Thursday nights wherever possible.


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## DeniseM (Mar 5, 2020)

This makes my brain hurt - let me know when it's done.


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## GregT (Mar 7, 2020)

How did this become a skimming thread?

Skimming stinks -- I hated it then and still do.   As Steve Fatula has indicated, I rarely redeem my 3BR OF weeks for points.

But I'm smart enough to see the value of using points, so together with @StevenTing, we created the marketplace where you can rent points from others.   If Marriott hadn't skimmed me so much for my prime 3BR OF weeks in Maui (14%!), maybe it would have taken longer for the rental market to get established?   On the positive side, Marriott didn't need to give us the ability to transfer points -- that's a huge benefit of the system.

So for me, skim bad, transfer good.   I accept that skimming is part of the system that Marriott chose.   Others don't mind it, good for them.  But I don't like being given $0.86 for my dollar.   I don't agree with the rationalization that I can still do alot with my $0.86 -- yes any point system allows me to do alot -- but if I can do alot with $0.86, think how much I could do with a buck?

Sometimes I think what we like so much comes with the basic features of a point system.

And as with any point system, we are no longer required to make 7 day reservations like in a week system.

As with any point system, it is really good to get reduced point requirements for Sun-Thurs nights.

As with any point system, it is really good to be able to pay more points and get better views.

It's just a point system.  What's different about it from others are:

1) Skim
2) Ability to transfer points
3) Ability to book one night reservations (especially at 13 months out)

I love #2 and #3, which is why I enrolled (and with Steven, helped to bring the point rental market to Marriott owners).  I like that we have spent 10 years working to maximize the system and I think that is the most productive use of our time.

Best,

Greg


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## Steve Fatula (Mar 7, 2020)

Except, you conveniently ignore trading the 3BR week you have definitely has skim in II. You will almost certainly not get a 3BR, and that IS skim. I do not agree at all you are getting 86 cents for a dollar. I already showed why that's not the case but it does depend how you use it so it can go either way, There are certainly many examples of how you can get less for sure, but that merely means you used it wrong, just as with II. I think you are thinking about it wrong. Send me a DM and we can discuss out if this thread if you wish,


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## GregT (Mar 7, 2020)

Back to the original question posted by the OP......I have put comments in red in the OP's original message, and I enjoy speculating on these things!!!




FamilyEsq said:


> I made a couple of assumptions (which you may disagree with) of the future integration.
> 
> MVC wants a common currency that will generate the most profit.  Destination Points (DP) seem to be the optimal profit generator.  I agree with you -- I believe DPs will be the skeleton key that crosses all systems
> MVC’s best potential new customers are its existing DP owners. Current Vistana owners are probably next on the list.  Again, I agree with you, I think existing DP owners are its top targets -- primarily people who have purchased a starter package of points and realized that they need more to effectively utilize the system.   Marriott owners have been mined now for 10 years to add a points package, so Vistana owners are the next group up.
> ...


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## GregT (Mar 7, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> Except, you conveniently ignore trading the 3BR week you have definitely has skim in II. You will almost certainly not get a 3BR, and that IS skim. I do not agree at all you are getting 86 cents for a dollar. I already showed why that's not the case but it does depend how you use it so it can go either way, There are certainly many examples of how you can get less for sure, but that merely means you used it wrong, just as with II. I think you are thinking about it wrong. Send me a DM and we can discuss out if this thread if you wish,


No, I do not conveniently ignore that II also skims.   I just don't deposit the weeks into II, same reason as I do not redeem them for points.  There are better alternatives, if not being personally used.

I think we can both agree that skimming is part of the system design, and because of that, there are certain weeks (like mine) that will never be a part of either II or the DC Exchange.  There are others (like Sue's) that can now be a part of the DC exchange, but would never have been deposited into II.  That's just the way it is and I've learned how to make the most of the system that exists today.     

Best,

Greg


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## FamilyEsq (Mar 8, 2020)

Hey Greg,

Thanks for the analysis.  That is exactly what I was looking for.  For me, it comes down to the next purchase.  Marriot trader, Vistana voluntary (cheap) or Vistana mandatory.  I love game playing hypotheticals.

FE


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## Tommyhob (Apr 18, 2020)

I realize this is a somewhat unrelated question, but I have not been to a presentation recently and haven't heard much discussed lately about MVCI/Vistana being able to reserve each other's inventory.    It's coming up on 2 years into the merger, I guess I somewhat expected to hear about a  plan at some point.   I own MVCI points and would love to use these on Vistana timeshare properties.   

Has anyone heard anything new?
Thanks.


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## JIMinNC (Apr 18, 2020)

Tommyhob said:


> I realize this is a somewhat unrelated question, but I have not been to a presentation recently and haven't heard much discussed lately about MVCI/Vistana being able to reserve each other's inventory.    It's coming up on 2 years into the merger, I guess I somewhat expected to hear about a  plan at some point.   I own MVCI points and would love to use these on Vistana timeshare properties.
> 
> Has anyone heard anything new?
> Thanks.



The last concrete info was from Marriott Vacations Worldwide's Investor Day presentation to Wall Street back in October. Then they disclosed a "common points currency" between the legacy MVC and Vistana properties would be announced in the "second half of 2020". No one knows how the current COVID-19 situation will impact that timing.


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## WYOCOWBOY (Jul 10, 2020)

I am a Vistana owner, 44k points, which can get me a 1-bedroom in Gold weeks, Hawaii needs more points.  And I just got done with a Zoom owner update with my representative in Westin's Lagunamar in Cancun.   I was told that my 44k points will not get me into a Marriott when the catalog is combined together.  She says I need 67,100 points just for an efficiency unit.   And to get into a one-bedroom, I need 81,000.  No show and tell of the new catalog was given, showed the MVC catalog with the points you MVC know.  to get the 37K more points I need to pay $6,346.  A new maintenance fee - old was $593/yr for my Odd year 1 bedroom, to $748/yr  every other year ownership.    The presentation also mentioned that MVC is better than Vistana units and that is why we have to buy more reserve within the Marriots combined catalog.  Had several options thrown at me to consider during the zoom call yesterday.  I have not even used my StarOptions yet and already I am being told they are not good enough for Marriott.    

Now what I read here is most think MVC method will be used to run the internal reservation process.  

So, during the presentation, I was told that when I want to pick a Marriott resort, I call ii and tell them what I am doing, and ii will then tell me I don't have enough points to get into a 1-bedroom Marriott Resort, anywhere/anytime.   If I had the points, no exchange fee.  And I believe this is the short time fix due to the complications of combining the computer systems to allow on-line booking.   I called ii this morning to ask about my StarOptions being used to make a reservation for a Marriott, they don't know anything about that, I can do an exchange with ii for $154 and unit upgrade fee if needed.  my non-Vistana unit exchange is $209

Ok, do remember it was an owner update to sell me points to use Marriott, but it can't all of been stretched too far, could it?


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## SandyPGravel (Jul 10, 2020)

WYOCOWBOY said:


> I am a Vistana owner, 44k points, which can get me a 1-bedroom in Gold weeks, Hawaii needs more points.  And I just got done with a Zoom owner update with my representative in Westin's Lagunamar in Cancun.   I was told that my 44k points will not get me into a Marriott when the catalog is combined together.  She says I need 67,100 points just for an efficiency unit.   And to get into a one-bedroom, I need 81,000.  No show and tell of the new catalog was given, showed the MVC catalog with the points you MVC know.  to get the 37K more points I need to pay $6,346.  A new maintenance fee - old was $593/yr for my Odd year 1 bedroom, to $748/yr  every other year ownership.    The presentation also mentioned that MVC is better than Vistana units and that is why we have to buy more reserve within the Marriots combined catalog.  Had several options thrown at me to consider during the zoom call yesterday.  I have not even used my StarOptions yet and already I am being told they are not good enough for Marriott.
> 
> Now what I read here is most think MVC method will be used to run the internal reservation process.
> 
> ...



Well you were told a slightly different version than I was told.  I was told that 81000 SO wouldn't be enough I would need 148,000.  (But that might have been in reference to a 2 BR unit.  I can't remember.  My meeting was March 3rd I think.)  I don't remember being told I would call II, I remember him saying I would contact Marriot Reservations.  But, like I mentioned this was in early March.


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## jabberwocky (Jul 11, 2020)

It will depend on the resort location and season - but you can pull Marriott inventory via II for 44k or less.

October in Orlando will cost 44k and will get you a 1BR Marriott Grande Vista. Studio would be 37k.


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## hangloose (Jul 11, 2020)

Keep it simple!

While I love my 5 MVC weeks, their varied status (some enrolled, some not) is hard to keep track of in MVCs current system (weeks & DC Pts) especially when you add in banking pts, holding pts, a variety of key dates associated to booking/banking/exchanging, II exchanges

I enjoy having the flexibility of all options, but wish it was an easier system to manage now for multi week owners.

My fear of a MVC / Vistana combined program is that it will be even more complex.  I also fear that it will be harder to reserve ownership for high demand properties/weeks....like Maui OF in whale season.


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## elked12 (Jul 11, 2020)

when is whale season in Maui? I know it’s in feb some time but not sure how long it stretches. Thank you


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## hangloose (Jul 11, 2020)

elked12 said:


> when is whale season in Maui? I know it’s in feb some time but not sure how long it stretches. Thank you



Prime whaling season in Maui is Jan - March with a few weeks on each end.


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## vistana101 (Jul 23, 2020)

Oy, anyone else get a little tired of all the booking rules and regulations? Sometimes it feels so refreshing to book a simple hotel room without the restraints of options/points and booking periods. I think timeshare companies will have to work hard to simplify the experience as times change and (particularly younger) consumers expect quick and simple booking experiences.


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## SandyPGravel (Jul 23, 2020)

vistana101 said:


> Oy, anyone else get a little tired of all the booking rules and regulations? Sometimes it feels so refreshing to book a simple hotel room without the restraints of options/points and booking periods. I think timeshare companies will have to work hard to simplify the experience as times change and (particularly younger) consumers expect quick and simple booking experiences.


This has always been my comment on why I wouldn't recommend time-sharing (VSE) to a friend.  WAY TOO COMPLICATED.  But, it falls on deaf ears.  The complications are to "their" advantage.


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## Dean (Jul 23, 2020)

vistana101 said:


> Oy, anyone else get a little tired of all the booking rules and regulations? Sometimes it feels so refreshing to book a simple hotel room without the restraints of options/points and booking periods. I think timeshare companies will have to work hard to simplify the experience as times change and (particularly younger) consumers expect quick and simple booking experiences.


In some ways the hotels are more variable, complicated and secretive.  I like knowing the rules and planning well ahead, timeshares are perfect for that in our situation.


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2020)

While at the Grand vista for 6 weeks in June/July I met quite a few interesting people. I met a guy who happened to work in central sales for Vistana/Marriott. He said they were all “hoping for” and expecting VSN and DC to stay as is, Nothing would change in each system. As far as a joint program, possibly at a certain point say 7mo mark you would be able to “convert” what you own into a common currency system for cross booking. They think it would be done through interval international. He admitted no one knows anything and they are all speculating the same as we are.

As long as VSN stays the same I’m all in for a common currency program. Although, with the new VSN Escape deals, I’m looking forward to great last minute deals.

I would think vistana owners would have to own developer or retro’ed units or pay a “Marriott” fee to be able to play. I don’t think mandatory will have any bearing on whether or not you can convert without paying a fee. If the unit is enrolled in the bonvoy program, that is an easy way to flag eligible ownerships that can convert.


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