# [OFFICIAL Vistana *2019* Maintenance Fees Thread]



## DavidnRobin (Oct 17, 2018)

*Congrats to David who is the first Tugger to report 2019 maintenance fees! 

In addition to posting in this thread, please post your maintenance fees in our data base, provided by Nico.  (Thank you Nico!)

CLICK HERE:  MF Data Base

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

2019 MF
WKORV DLX - $3271.34
SVN Fee: $151.04

2.52% increase in MFs

2018 was $3190.93 (2.22% increase over 2017)
2017 was $3121.50

FIRST!!! LOL

and my 10,000 post!
(side note.  my 1st post was Denise’s 1000th, and my 1000th was Denise’s 10,000th post - is she at 100,000th yet? LOL)


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## DeniseM (Oct 18, 2018)

Congrats to Dave for being first!


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## controller1 (Oct 18, 2018)

WKORV North OF 2-bedrm

$2,640.90 MF

3.07% increase ($78.60) from previous year.


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## Henry M. (Oct 19, 2018)

WKORV North IV 2BR $2,640.90, same as OF. 

WKORV OV 2BR $2,384.07


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## JudyS (Oct 21, 2018)

I have recently realized that the notices for the HOA Board meetings give information about the upcoming annual fees. On the back of the letter announcing the HOA Board meeting for Vistana Viallges, is next yea's budget. 

I always ignored the budget in the past, thinking I could never figure it out. But, I looked carefully this time and saw "operating expenses" and "reserves" listed. I suspect these will be rubber-stamped at the board meeting. So, the only component of annual fees that isn't already know is the state real estate taxes. (The HOA Board has no say over the state taxes.) 

There was also a section saying the estimated remaining life of the elements of the physical plant (the roofs, the HVAC, etc). It also said how much the items were expected to cost to replace, and how much in replacement funds had been set aside. 

It looks like there is a gold mind of information there.  Unfortunately, I put my Board Meeting announcements in the recycle bin. But, it would be worth sharing our knowledge here and trying to figure out things such as whether replacements are adequately funded, whether bad debt is higher than last year, etc.

I did recall that the bad debt for my Vistana Village HOA was 9%, and I thought that was surprisingly high. I believe this was for Key West, although I also own Bella. 

*Upshot: Probably all of the annual fees for next year have already been announced, not including the real estate taxes. *


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## dioxide45 (Oct 21, 2018)

JudyS said:


> I have recently realized that the notices for the HOA Board meetings give information about the upcoming annual fees. On the back of the letter announcing the HOA Board meeting for Vistana Viallges, is next yea's budget.
> 
> I always ignored the budget in the past, thinking I could never figure it out. But, I looked carefully this time and saw "operating expenses" and "reserves" listed. I suspect these will be rubber-stamped at the board meeting. So, the only component of annual fees that isn't already know is the state real estate taxes. (The HOA Board has no say over the state taxes.)
> 
> ...


All that stuff with regard to the budget for SVV is a Florida requirement. That breakdown of useful life of capital expenditures is also based on Florida requirements,. I however don't understand why SVV doesn't include the real estate tax amount, both of our Orlando Marriott timeshares do. The board knows the amount, I don't know why they don't include it in the details in the estimated budget.

There is also at least one variance between the estimated budget that is included in that notice and the final one. The estimated budget will have the replacement reserve fee amount showing based on the ownership not voting to waive fully funding the reserves. So there is a high probability that the replacement reserve amount will reduce significantly when/if waiving of fully funding reserves passes at the annual meeting.


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## maggiesmom (Oct 21, 2018)

Sheraton Vistana Resort
Unit week-Annual
Standard Two-Bedroom
Unit (1)
In my SVR Proposed Budget of Operating Expenses, Jan. 1, 2019, 
what are Vistana Vacation Club Dues of $29.95 for?
Thank you.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 21, 2018)

maggiesmom said:


> what are Vistana Vacation Club Dues of $29.95 for?


Perhaps this is some internal club that also allows you to book at Vistana Beach Club?


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## maggiesmom (Oct 22, 2018)

Here the answer I got from Vistana:

Thank you for contacting Vistana Management, Inc. 

For information purposes, the budget document that is approved yearly by the Board of Directors is determined for all owners at the particular property, not individually. As for the field in question (Vistana Vacation Club Dues), this total is not associated with the Vistana Signature Network (VSN) membership as this charge (VSN) is not part of the budget. 

For inquiries regarding how your fees are determined and the budget is approved, it is recommended that you contact your Board of Directors directly at boardrelations@vistana.com. To ensure that requests submitted to the Board are properly addressed, it is essential that you provide your six digit contract number and Association name in all your communications with their representatives.

If we can be of further assistance, our hours of operation are:

Monday - Thursday 8 a.m. to 9 p.m. Eastern time
Friday 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. Eastern time
800-729-8246 - Toll free
407-903-4670 - Local & International
407-418-7771 - Facsimile

Sincerely,
Association Management


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## okwiater (Oct 25, 2018)

*Westin Kierland Villas*
2 Bedroom Lockoff

2019 MF
$1,203.22 Operating Assessment
$300.00 Replacement Reserves
$62.09 Estimated Real Estate Tax
= $1,565.31 total

This is compared to a 2018 MF of $1,543.15.

Total increase is $22.16 or 1.4%.


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## krj9999 (Oct 25, 2018)

SDO.  Pleasantly surprised.  No change (though for some reason the 1BR standard is 1 cent higher than 2018).

1BR Standard $669.48
1BR Premium $789.03
2BR $1,147.68


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## farsighted99 (Oct 26, 2018)

Nanea - Maui
1 Bedroom Unit

2019 MF

1,341.53  Maintenance Fee
   151.04  Membership Fee
1,492.57  Total


Didn't pay the "voluntary" ARDA ROC PAC contribution of $10.

Last year's MF's were $1358.29


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## dioxide45 (Oct 26, 2018)

farsighted99 said:


> Nanea - Maui
> 1 Bedroom Unit
> 
> 2019 MF
> ...


How many Home Options is this? I didn't think they actually sold units at Nanea, just enough points to book in to a certain unit size.


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## controller1 (Oct 26, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> How many Home Options is this? I didn't think they actually sold units at Nanea, just enough points to book in to a certain unit size.



That is correct and the actual cost per point went down 1.2% from last year so not sure about the statement that there was an increase.


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## TravelTime (Oct 29, 2018)

WKOVR North EOY 2 BR OF

$133.92 Master Association Assessment
$283.41 Apartment Owners Assessment
$923.12 Vacation Ownership Assessment
$1340.45 Total


$151.04 VSN Membership Fee
$10.00  One Ohana Foundation & Trust (optional)


Why is the EOY MF more than double the annual MF?

Is the VSN Membership Fee charged annually on an EOY unit?


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## dioxide45 (Oct 29, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Why is the EOY MY more than half the annual MF?


Some resorts charge an additional $30 fee for EOY ownerships.



> Is the VSN Membership Fee charged annually on an EOY unit?


Yes, the VSN fee is charged every year. Even for EOY ownerships. This makes EOY ownerships rather expensive if you only own one week.


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## TravelTime (Oct 29, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Some resorts charge an additional $30 fee for EOY ownerships.
> 
> 
> Yes, the VSN fee is charged every year. Even for EOY ownerships. This makes EOY ownerships rather expensive if you only own one week.



Yes, this is my first MF bill since owning Vistana. The extra fees are adding up. I hope Vistana and Marriott do integrate so I can stop paying for two trading accounts...assuming Marriott does not take anything away.


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## CalGalTraveler (Oct 30, 2018)

So if $2640 for annual WKORVN listed above, why is EOY $360 more ie $1501 x2 = $3002. Shouldnt it be $150 for extra VSN fee but still $210 difference when you take this onto acct...why such a large discrepancy?

Does the $2640 not include the VSN fee?


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## controller1 (Oct 30, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> So if $2640 for annual WKORVN listed above, why is EOY $360 more ie $1501 x2 = $3002. Shouldnt it be $150 for extra VSN fee but still $210 difference when you take this onto acct...why such a large discrepancy?
> 
> Does the $2640 not include the VSN fee?



The $2,640 does not include the VSN fee.  

To make it apples to apples we need to show ONLY the MF not, the PAC contribution or the VSN fee as the VSN fee does not apply to every contract and the PAC contribution is optional.


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 30, 2018)

controller1 said:


> The $2,640 does not include the VSN fee.
> 
> To make it apples to apples we need to show ONLY the MF not, the PAC contribution or the VSN fee as the VSN fee does not apply to every contract and the PAC contribution is optional.



Agree. VSN fees are not the same for everyone.  Including them only leads to confusion - and inaccurate math when calculating % changes.


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## TravelTime (Oct 30, 2018)

Okay, I fixed mine.


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## WahooWah (Oct 30, 2018)

I know how much this news upsets the narrative that is trumpeted about by some, but it's true.

2019 MF at WKORVN are $2,640.90

2018 - $2,713.26

2017 - $2,721.75

2016 - $2,742.65

Three decreases in a row.


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## controller1 (Oct 31, 2018)

WahooWah said:


> I know how much this news upsets the narrative that is trumpeted about by some, but it's true.
> 
> 2019 MF at WKORVN are $2,640.90
> 
> ...



Some of your numbers include the VSN fee and therefore are not representative of the true MFs and the direction those MFs are going.

2018 - $2,713.26 includes $151.04 of VSN Membership Fee.  Correct amount for 2018 - $2,562.22

2017 - $2,721.75 includes $145.60 of VSN Membership Fee.  Correct amount for 2017 - $2,576.15

I'm unable to lay my hands on my 2016 information at this time.

Therefore the difference between 2018 and 2019 is a 3.07% INCREASE not a decrease.  (Same as shown in Post #3 above).


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## DeniseM (Oct 31, 2018)

Oh come on, controller1 - A Lahaina timeshare sales person would never massage the numbers to support his agenda!


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## controller1 (Oct 31, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> Oh come on, controller1 - A Lahaina timeshare sales person would never massage the numbers to support his agenda!



I'm laughing now. Thanks. I needed that!


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## KACTravels (Oct 31, 2018)

WahooWah said:


> I know how much this news upsets the narrative that is trumpeted about by some, but it's true.
> 
> 2019 MF at WKORVN are $2,640.90
> 
> ...


2016 also had a "Special Assessment" of $289.69


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 31, 2018)

controller1 said:


> Some of your numbers include the VSN fee and therefore are not representative of the true MFs and the direction those MFs are going.
> 
> 2018 - $2,713.26 includes $151.04 of VSN Membership Fee.  Correct amount for 2018 - $2,562.22
> 
> ...



Gotta love Tuggers keeping facts and numbers to counter the misinformed.

The past numbers are listed in database.

WSJ-VGV MFs have been essentially the same since 2012.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45 (Oct 31, 2018)

This is one reason I don't like how the database includes the VSN fee, it isn't comparing Apples to Apples. Some people pay $50 for a given week, others pay $150, yet some still will pay $0.


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 31, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> This is one reason I don't like how the database includes the VSN fee, it isn't comparing Apples to Apples. Some people pay $50 for a given week, others pay $150, yet some still will pay $0.



Correct. The database was changed at some point in past. I have numbers broken down going back to early 2000s or openings for WKORV, WKV, WSJ-VGV and WPORV. But I think Nico would need to add.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 2, 2018)

New Vistana owner. Statement says "due Jan 2 2019" or late fees will apply. Is this a hard due date? or is there a grace period?


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## DeniseM (Nov 2, 2018)

I would not pay late - that can cancel your 2019 reservstions.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45 (Nov 3, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> New Vistana owner. Statement says "due Jan 2 2019" or late fees will apply. Is this a hard due date? or is there a grace period?


You would technically incur the late fees after that date, but they may or may not charge them. They won't start initiating foreclosure proceedings until about 4-6 months later. But as Denise indicated, they will start cancelling reservations pretty quickly.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 3, 2018)

DavidnRobin said:


> Correct. The database was changed at some point in past. I have numbers broken down going back to early 2000s or openings for WKORV, WKV, WSJ-VGV and WPORV. But I think Nico would need to add.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The problem is that the database includes a field for the VSN fee. Then a field for the total without the VSN or ARDA fee, but with any user entry type form people may just enter the total they see on the website. It would be best if the Db would just add up all the applicable fields and calculate the total. Either way it works, just more work for me to manually calculate the MFs to make sure I am comparing apples to apples.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 4, 2018)

Thanks @DeniseM & @dioxide45 As a new owner it is good to know the policy. We don't want our reservations cancelled. Some systems are due Jan 1 but you have 30 days before late fees kick in.


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## okwiater (Nov 14, 2018)

*Westin Lagunamar*
2 Bedroom Lockoff (EOY)

2019 MF
$577.25 Operating Assessment
$127.00 Replacement Reserves
= $704.25 total

This is compared to a 2018 MF of $688.52.

Total increase is $15.73 or 2.3%.


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## okwiater (Nov 15, 2018)

*Sheraton Mountain Vista*
2 Bedroom Lockoff

2019 MF
$1,178.36 Vacation Ownership Assessment
$293.45 Common Condo Assessment
$54.17 Estimated Real Estate Tax
= $1,525.98 total

This is compared to a 2018 MF of $1,502.38.

Total increase is $23.60 or 1.6%.


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## YYJMSP (Nov 20, 2018)

Westin Desert Willow -- 2BR L/O

2019 Operating Assessment -- $1133.39
2019 Replacement Reserves -- $339.29

TOTAL -- $1473.28 + property taxes

Increase of 2.6% (mostly due to increase in minimum wage and income tax expense)


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## YYJMSP (Nov 20, 2018)

Sheraton Vistana Resort (Spas) -- 2BR

2019 Operating Assessment -- $600.81
2019 Replacement Reserves -- $179.11
2019 Estimated Real Estate Tax -- $112.60

TOTAL -- $892.52

Increase of 2% (mostly due to insurance and income tax expense)


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## YYJMSP (Nov 20, 2018)

Sheraton Vistana Resort (Cascades) -- 2BR L/O

2019 Operating Assessment -- $832.15
2019 Replacement Reserves -- $234.34
2019 Estimated Real Estate Tax -- $153.79

TOTAL -- $1220.28

Increase of 2.2% (mostly due to insurance and income tax expense)
​


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## VacationForever (Nov 20, 2018)

Sheraton Vistana Resort (Lakes) 2BR L/O
2019 Operating Assessment $760.09
2019 Replacement Reserves $259.28
2019 Estimated Real Estate Tax $174.79

2019 Total: $1,194.16

2018 Total: $1,149.81, increase of $44.35, amounts to 3.86%


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## dioxide45 (Nov 20, 2018)

*Sheraton Vistana Villages (Bella Florida Condominium) 2BR Prime Season - Annual*

2019 Operating Assessment $739.86
2019 Replacement Reserves $253.19
2019 Estimated Real Estate Tax $134.07
*2019 Total: $1,181.12*

2018 Total: $1,168.61 --> Increase of $12.51, amounts to 1.07% increase


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## Mullins (Nov 23, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> This is one reason I don't like how the database includes the VSN fee, it isn't comparing Apples to Apples. Some people pay $50 for a given week, others pay $150, yet some still will pay $0.



What exactly is the Membership fee for and when is it applicable?  Line item says  "Membership Fee - if applicable"


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## echino (Nov 30, 2018)

Harborside Resort at Atlantis Phase I, 2-bedroom lockoff, week 51:

Maintenance Fee(s) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   $ 2,593.27









Tax - If Applicable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   $ 348.92









Membership Fee - If Applicable 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   $ 145.00









Other* 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   $ 169.45









Interest 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   $ 0.00









Late Fees 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   $ 0.00









Sub-Total





Current Year Charges 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   $ 3,256.64

Due January 8, 2019

2018: $ 3,096.86
5.16% increase


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## tourproto (Dec 21, 2018)

okwiater said:


> *Westin Kierland Villas*
> 2 Bedroom Lockoff
> 
> 2019 MF
> ...



New member here. Very interesting reading your info for WKV Plat+

I also have a 2 bedroom lockoff but my MF for 2019 is $1503.22 and increase of $18.08 from 2018 ($1485.12) and increase of 1.2%.

How do we both have Plat+ weeks (at least according do your info) and we are paying different amounts? ***EDIT** never mind  just realized you broke out your $300 replacement reserves. That amount isn't broken out on my bill. I wonder why?*

Also as a new Vistana member, what the heck is the $145 Membership Fee?

Full details: Western Kierland Villas
2019 MF: $1503.22
2019 Tax: $62.09
2019 Membership fee: $145.00
2019 Total: $1710.31


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## dioxide45 (Dec 21, 2018)

tourproto said:


> Also as a new Vistana member, what the heck is the $145 Membership Fee?


That is your fee to be in the Vistana Signature Network and be able to use StarOptions.


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## tourproto (Dec 21, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> That is your fee to be in the Vistana Signature Network and be able to use StarOptions.


Thank you...


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## RadfordS (Dec 28, 2018)

Sheraton Vistana 2 bedroom Lakes.
2019 fees $1001.89 one week


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## getmoreveggies (Dec 31, 2018)

1. Westin Mission Hills 148,100 (EOY)
$673.54 Vacation Ownership Assessment (2018 = $672.87)
$98.10 Condo Common Assessment (2018 = $90.10)
$113.07 Master Association Assessment (2018 = $104.58)

2. Westin Desert Willow 148,100 (EOY)
$642.20 Operating Assessment (2018 = $621.32)
$169.64 Replacement Reserves (2018 = $169.65)
$64.64 Real Estate Tax Estimate (2018 = $53.95)
$145.00 VSN Membership Fee

3. Westin Desert Willow 148,100 (EOY)
$642.20 Operating Assessment 
$169.65 Replacement Reserves 
$64.63 Real Estate Tax Estimate 
$50.00 VSN Membership Fee (2nd Week)


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## maggiesmom (Dec 31, 2018)

RadfordS said:


> Sheraton Vistana 2 bedroom Lakes.
> 2019 fees $1001.89 one week



Just a question,  because my Annual- Float 1-52 week Sheraton Vistana 2 bedroom Lakes 2019 fees are $1,020.72. I did not pay the  ARDA ROC PAC of $5.00.
 I am just trying to figure out the difference that's all.


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## jthiker (Jan 6, 2019)

Westin St. John Coral Vista Studio (Gold Plus)

2019 Base Fee:  $735.62
2019 Points Assessment (44,000):  $511.23
SubTotal:  #1246.85

2019 VSN fee:  $145

Total:  1391.85

Question to the group:  I do not see a ARDA ROC PAC fee listed on my statement.  Is it buried in the fees or not included at all.  The online payment page indicates that the total includes it and I do not wish to pay it but do not see it listed in order to exclude. 

Thanks all!


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## tae1970 (Jan 24, 2019)

Westin Princeville 
2 bedroom lock off, been year float 148,100
Maintenance fee $1528.88
Membership fee $151.04
Total $1679.92
2018 total was $1620.02

Westin Nanea
Even year floating 176,700
Maintenance fee $1483.26
Membership fee $52.08
Total $1545.34
2018 total was $1553.62


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## CPNY (Jul 8, 2019)

JudyS said:


> I have recently realized that the notices for the HOA Board meetings give information about the upcoming annual fees. On the back of the letter announcing the HOA Board meeting for Vistana Viallges, is next yea's budget.
> 
> I always ignored the budget in the past, thinking I could never figure it out. But, I looked carefully this time and saw "operating expenses" and "reserves" listed. I suspect these will be rubber-stamped at the board meeting. So, the only component of annual fees that isn't already know is the state real estate taxes. (The HOA Board has no say over the state taxes.)
> 
> ...


You wouldn’t happen to know the maint fee details for a one bedroom premium in Bella phase would you?


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## dms11 (Aug 29, 2019)

Is there a 2020 MF thread yet?  Until I find it, here are my 2020 MF details:

Westin Aventuras 148,100 options/Annual Float 
Maintenance Fee:  $2170.70
Membership Fee:  $155.00
2020 Total:  $2325.70
2019 Total:  $2176.93
Increase of $148.77 or 6.8%


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## jabberwocky (Aug 29, 2019)

dms11 said:


> Is there a 2020 MF thread yet?  Until I find it, here are my 2020 MF details:
> 
> Westin Aventuras 148,100 options/Annual Float
> Maintenance Fee:  $2170.70
> ...



I think you win the prize for the first 2020 post!  Mods will probably move to a new thread.


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## DannyTS (Aug 29, 2019)

dms11 said:


> Is there a 2020 MF thread yet?  Until I find it, here are my 2020 MF details:
> 
> Westin Aventuras 148,100 options/Annual Float
> Maintenance Fee:  $2170.70
> ...


 7% up! What happened?


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## CPNY (Aug 29, 2019)

Speaking of Maint Fees. What are the possibilities of an Orlando Dorian hit? Wonder how much damage the Orlando resorts may face


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## controller1 (Aug 30, 2019)

*WESTIN FLEX
*
*2020*
257,700 options
VOI assessment - $5,210.69

*2019*
257,700 options
VOI assessment - $4,878.26

*INCREASE - 6.8%



 *


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## vacationtime1 (Aug 30, 2019)

controller1 said:


> *WESTIN FLEX
> *
> *2020*
> 257,700 options
> ...



Reading just a bit of the fine print tells us one reason for the increase in MF's is "increases in annual reserve funding in order to maintain positive cash flow and achieve long-term funding objectives."

An admission that the original MF's were insufficient and that increases will be required.


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## jabberwocky (Aug 30, 2019)

vacationtime1 said:


> Reading just a bit of the fine print tells us one reason for the increase in MF's is "increases in annual reserve funding in order to maintain positive cash flow and achieve long-term funding objectives."
> 
> An admission that the original MF's were insufficient and that increases will be required.



It also notes that the MF’s associated with underlying properties increased. 

Remember Vistana just dumped a huge number of Nanea weeks into the trust (last number I saw was 1872 weeks or just under 260 million HO points). The underlying mix of properties is getting weighted to the higher cost properties.


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## DannyTS (Aug 30, 2019)

Both Westin Aventuras and Westin Flex increased by the exact same %, a curious coincidence, so it looks to me that the change was more by design than driven by the MF of the underlying resorts. Let's see Sheraton Flex. Now I am really curious about the 2020 MF of all my Vistana weeks. I hope a 7% increase across the board will not be the first "present" from our new owner MVW.


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## controller1 (Aug 30, 2019)

vacationtime1 said:


> Reading just a bit of the fine print tells us one reason for the increase in MF's is "increases in annual reserve funding in order to maintain positive cash flow and achieve long-term funding objectives."
> 
> An admission that the original MF's were insufficient and that increases will be required.





jabberwocky said:


> It also notes that the MF’s associated with underlying properties increased.
> 
> Remember Vistana just dumped a huge number of Nanea weeks into the trust (last number I saw was 1872 weeks or just under 260 million HO points). The underlying mix of properties is getting weighted to the higher cost properties.





DannyTS said:


> Both Westin Aventuras and Westin Flex increased by the exact same %, a curious coincidence, so it looks to me that the change was more by design than driven by the MF of the underlying resorts. Let's see Sheraton Flex. Now I am really curious about the 2020 MF of all my Vistana weeks. I hope a 7% increase across the board will not be the first "present" from our new owner MVW.



Considering 94% of the Westin Flex MF increase is due to the MF increases at the underlying properties, I expect to see 6.5% - 7% increases in MFs at all the Westin properties.  IMO we are beginning to see the impact of Marriott Vacations Worldwide since the increases at the legacy MVC properties over the past five years have been significantly higher, on average, than the Vistana MF increases.


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## DannyTS (Aug 30, 2019)

controller1 said:


> Considering 94% of the Westin Flex MF increase is due to the MF increases at the underlying properties, I expect to see 6.5% - 7% increases in MFs at all the Westin properties.  IMO we are beginning to see the impact of Marriott Vacations Worldwide since the increases at the legacy MVC properties over the past five years have been significantly higher, on average, than the Vistana MF increases.


How can they justify such an increase in MF at the underlying resorts? Why would Westin Kierland, SVV, Lagunamar and a Westin in Hawaii experience similar increases? Different labor markets, local taxes, utility costs etc


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## DannyTS (Aug 30, 2019)

dms11 said:


> Is there a 2020 MF thread yet?  Until I find it, here are my 2020 MF details:
> 
> Westin Aventuras 148,100 options/Annual Float
> Maintenance Fee:  $2170.70
> ...


Yesterday we visited Westin Los Cabos, we are staying at another resort. FWIW we were offered the promo package for about $100 a night for a studio for any of the Mexican Westin resorts including Westin Puerto Vallarta. I assume that it will be included in Westin Aventuras very soon if it is not in the trust already.  If true, this may also skew the numbers by quite a bit. I just do not see, based on the history of the MF at Lagunamar as well as the healthy reserves what would justify a 7% increase at this resort.


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## DeniseM (Aug 30, 2019)

Regarding 2020 maintenance fees:  I believe that the numbers you find on your account are just _estimates_, and I recommend waiting for the official maintenance fees, before you post them.  I will start a 2020 thread when official numbers are available.


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## DannyTS (Aug 30, 2019)

DeniseM said:


> Regarding 2020 maintenance fees:  I believe that the numbers you find on your account are just _estimates_, and I recommend waiting for the official maintenance fees, before you post them.  I will start a 2020 thread when official numbers are available.


Based on the Ebay listings I have seen, the Flex MF are due in October or November (I do not remember) so it is possible they are the actual numbers


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## DeniseM (Aug 30, 2019)

It's definitely possible, but has anyone posted that they have received a bill?


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## andysnovel (Aug 30, 2019)

DeniseM said:


> It's definitely possible, but has anyone posted that they have received a bill?


I just called, my Sheraton Flex 104,100 SO account is being billed 1844.34 on 9/27.


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## DannyTS (Aug 30, 2019)

andysnovel said:


> I just called, my Sheraton Flex 104,100 SO account is being billed 1844.34 on 9/27.


Does that include the VSN fees or not?


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## DeniseM (Aug 30, 2019)

When you (or anyone) gets an actual bill - please dm me and I will start the new thread.  I don't want to start it early, because I don't want estimates posted prematurely.


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## andysnovel (Aug 30, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> Does that include the VSN fees or not?


Includes $155 membership fee.


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## DeniseM (Aug 30, 2019)

There is a new sticky at the top of the page for* 2020.*

Friendly Request:  Please don't post the estimates found on your Vistana Acct. - please post figures from the *actual invoices*, when you receive them.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 30, 2019)

While the reserves may appear to be funded adequately, Marriott really upped the amount they were putting in the reserves at many of their properties over the last few years. So I suspect the same is true now at Vistana resorts. I am sure they are pushing to up the reserves because more MF collected means more to Marriott and Vistana's management fee. It always seemed odd that our Grande Vista fee went up about 4-7% every year but the last two years our SVV Bella and Key West fees went down or were flat. Sadly I fear steep hikes in MFs at many of the resorts.

Our SVV fees were under $1200 where Grande Vista is close to $1500.


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## DannyTS (Aug 30, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> While the reserves may appear to be funded adequately, Marriott really upped the amount they were putting in the reserves at many of their properties over the last few years. So I suspect the same is true now at Vistana resorts. I am sure they are pushing to up the reserves because more MF collected means more to Marriott and Vistana's management fee. It always seemed odd that our Grande Vista fee went up about 4-7% every year but the last two years our SVV Bella and Key West fees went down or were flat. Sadly I fear steep hikes in MFs at many of the resorts.
> 
> Our SVV fees were under $1200 where Grande Vista is close to $1500.


To be honest it would be ridiculous to increase the SVV fees by 25% (or any amount) just to catch up with Marriott without a justification in actual expenses. Again I hope it will not happen. By the way, what are the Marriott accrued reserves percentage of the annual budget compared to Vistana?


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## DannyTS (Aug 30, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> While the reserves may appear to be funded adequately, Marriott really upped the amount they were putting in the reserves at many of their properties over the last few years. So I suspect the same is true now at Vistana resorts. I am sure they are pushing to up the reserves because more MF collected means more to Marriott and Vistana's management fee. It always seemed odd that our Grande Vista fee went up about 4-7% every year but the last two years our SVV Bella and Key West fees went down or were flat. Sadly I fear steep hikes in MFs at many of the resorts.
> 
> Our SVV fees were under $1200 where Grande Vista is close to $1500.


If I am not mistaken, the management fee is calculated before the reserves, just based on the operating expenses.


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## jabberwocky (Aug 30, 2019)

According to Exhibit C of the Westin Flex Governing Document (Budget and Assessments) the developer guaranteed each owner that the total annual assessments would not exceed $0.01893 per point up until Dec. 31, 2019.  

Is it possible that this guarantee kept the MF's below where they actually should have been in order to sell more Flex and as a result we're seeing a higher than normal increase now that the guarantee is gone?  It will be interesting to see how it plays out with the underlying resorts MF's over the next few weeks as assessments start rolling in.


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## controller1 (Aug 30, 2019)

jabberwocky said:


> According to Exhibit C of the Westin Flex Governing Document (Budget and Assessments) the developer guaranteed each owner that the total annual assessments would not exceed $0.01893 per point up until Dec. 31, 2019.
> 
> Is it possible that this guarantee kept the MF's below where they actually should have been in order to sell more Flex and as a result we're seeing a higher than normal increase now that the guarantee is gone?  It will be interesting to see how it plays out with the underlying resorts MF's over the next few weeks as assessments start rolling in.



That could certainly be it!


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## jabberwocky (Aug 30, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> If I am not mistaken, the management fee is calculated before the reserves, just based on the operating expenses.



I believe you are correct.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 31, 2019)

jabberwocky said:


> I believe you are correct.


You could be right. Though only for Vistana and the calculation includes taxes and operating fee. When I run the numbers, it does look like the management fee at Vistana is about 10% of the operating assessment and taxes minus the management fee. However, when I run the same calculation for Marriott, the calculation comes out to about 10% of the total MF amount minus the management fee

*SVV 2BR 2019*
Operating Fee $793.86
Taxes $134.07
Replacement Reserves $253.19
Management Fee $85.66
Calculation (85.66/(793.86+134.07-85.66))=10.17%

*Marriott Grande Vista 2BR 2019*
Operating Fee $807.83
Taxes $144.17
Replacement Reserves $329.77
Management Fee $122.06
Calculation (122.06/(807.83+329.77+144.17-122.06))=10.53%

If this is correct, Marriott properties have a disadvantage in their contract with Marriott. Perhaps expect this to be something that Marriott will attempt to renegotiate with the HOAs when the contracts come up for renewal. Would you be willing to pay about an extra $40 to keep the Westin and Sheraton brands on the resorts?

Also something else to consider. The main difference in MF between the two properties is with how they calculate the management fee and Grande Vista having about an $80 higher replacement reserve fee. If you just up the replacement reserve by the $80, that is about a 6.7% increase in overall fees. I suspect very likely that the increases being seen in the trusts is directly attributed to increased reserve fees.


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## DannyTS (Aug 31, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> Would you be willing to pay about an extra $40 to keep the Westin and Sheraton brands on the resorts?


Would Marriott be willing to lose $85 to gain $40?

The management fee is indeed calculated on the operating cost, this is from the Lagunamar bill:
"Management Fee is paid to Turística Cancún, S. de R.L. de C.V., Blvd. Kukulcan KM 12.5 Lte.18 Zona Hotelera Cancún, Q.Roo 77500 for providing
management services to the Association pursuant to the management agreement. The management fee is calculated at 10% of total annual Association
operating costs, less the management fees and VAT."

This is the way it should be anyway! Why would the developer make a cut on money that is sitting in the bank???? Once they spend the reserve, the developer takes a cut. By taking a cut both when the reserve is billed then when it is spent, Marriott would make a cut TWICE on the same money. So the Marriott resorts should wake up and contest this, it is not that the Vistana resorts have to change it!


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## dioxide45 (Aug 31, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> Would Marriott be willing to lose $85 to gain $40?
> 
> The management fee is indeed calculated on the operating cost, this is from the Lagunamar bill:
> "Management Fee is paid to Turística Cancún, S. de R.L. de C.V., Blvd. Kukulcan KM 12.5 Lte.18 Zona Hotelera Cancún, Q.Roo 77500 for providing
> ...


Do you really think that is how it would go down? Seriously? If MVW strong arms the boards would you rather have them walk than just pay the extra cash? I suspect your answer may be different if you own voluntary vs in network. Also consider that Vistana currently controls most of the boards.

The $80 is not profit to Marriott, it is reserve spending. The $40 is pure profit in this scenario.

I don't disagree that this is how it should be, but it wouldn't be charge twice. When they spend reserves, it doesn't become part of the operating costs. It is still reserve spending which is not a line item on the financial statement. If it were, you would still be paying the Management Fee on it today, just on the back end instead of the front.


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## DannyTS (Aug 31, 2019)

controller1 said:


> Considering 94% of the Westin Flex MF increase is due to the MF increases at the underlying properties, I expect to see 6.5% - 7% increases in MFs at all the Westin properties.  IMO we are beginning to see the impact of Marriott Vacations Worldwide since the increases at the legacy MVC properties over the past five years have been significantly higher, on average, than the Vistana MF increases.


It is not just the MF increases of the


dioxide45 said:


> Do you really think that is how it would go down? Seriously? If MVW strong arms the boards would you rather have them walk than just pay the extra cash? I suspect your answer may be different if you own voluntary vs in network. Also consider that Vistana currently controls most of the boards.
> 
> The $80 is not profit to Marriott, it is reserve spending. The $40 is pure profit in this scenario.
> 
> I don't disagree that this is how it should be, but it wouldn't be charge twice. When they spend reserves, it doesn't become part of the operating costs. It is still reserve spending which is not a line item on the financial statement. If it were, you would still be paying the Management Fee on it today, just on the back end instead of the front.


We own both mandatory and voluntary. Is this how it is going to play out? I do not know but Ido know that Marriott needs us as much as we need Marriott. All I am saying is that Vistana owners or the boards should not start from a position of weakness, they have no reason for that. I am getting close to 5k in MF for all my Vistana weeks so I am not that indifferent if there was a 7% increase accross the bord. If the money were well spent it would not bother me much but as you say  half would go straight to profit.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 31, 2019)

controller1 said:


> Considering 94% of the Westin Flex MF increase is due to the MF increases at the underlying properties, I expect to see 6.5% - 7% increases in MFs at all the Westin properties.



Really? That is some serious speculation.
I’d wager that a 6.5-7% increase in 2020 will not happen for most deeded VSE VOIs.
(Based on the last 5 years of increases)


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## dioxide45 (Aug 31, 2019)

DavidnRobin said:


> Really? That is some serious speculation.
> I’d wager that a 6.5-7% increase in 2020 will not happen for most deeded VSE VOIs.
> (Based on the last 5 years of increases)
> 
> ...


It isn't really speculation. The Westin Flex is made up of individual weeks at all of the Westin resorts. It is possible that the main increase is because they dumped all that Nanea inventory in the trust. But the fact remains that the MFs on the underlying ownership of the trust is up 6-7%. It isn't speculation. When Sheraton Flex MFs come out, it will be interesting to see if they see similar increases.


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## PamMo (Aug 31, 2019)

I hope David is right. My units are deeded, and I sure don't want to see 6-7% added to the 2020 MF's for all my Ka'anapali and Harborside VOI's.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 31, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> It isn't really speculation. The Westin Flex is made up of individual weeks at all of the Westin resorts. It is possible that the main increase is because they dumped all that Nanea inventory in the trust. But the fact remains that the MFs on the underlying ownership of the trust is up 6-7%. It isn't speculation. When Sheraton Flex MFs come out, it will be interesting to see if they see similar increases.



So... you are willing to wager? LOL

OR... perhaps reason could be that they protected (supplemented) the Flex MFs as was observed with deeded units for SVO/VSE Resorts early in the Sales period, and now catching up.

Regardless- I would be shocked to see this % increase (6.5-7%) for WKORV/N, WPORV, or WKV (my Resorts that have Westin Flex association). 
Perhaps for WSJ since MFs have been relatively flat since 2012, and now dealing with H.Irma aftermath costs.



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## dioxide45 (Aug 31, 2019)

DavidnRobin said:


> OR... perhaps reason could be that they protected (supplemented) the Flex MFs as was observed with deeded units for SVO/VSE Resorts early in the Sales period, and now catching up.


Do we have any evidence that they supplemented MFs of the flex trusts?


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 31, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> Do we have any evidence that they supplemented MFs of the flex trusts?



Nope. Pure Speculation- see how that works?

But the speculation of a 6.5-7% increase is double the increases over the last 5 years (2-3%), and need to be legally justified in their accounting that goes to creating MFs.

Have the costs (or lack of revenue) really increased this much in one year for typical VOIs?
Or, is this increase due to Flex normalizing itself as it becomes more mature?

Sorry - I don’t see it.
Will shall see in a couple of months...
(and I am still willing to bet on it).

Mark this conversation.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 31, 2019)

DavidnRobin said:


> So... you are willing to wager? LOL
> 
> OR... perhaps reason could be that they protected (supplemented) the Flex MFs as was observed with deeded units for SVO/VSE Resorts early in the Sales period, and now catching up.
> 
> ...


If we compare similar resorts between Marriott and Vistana, we will notice in many cases that Marriott has a heavier Replacement Reserve;

*Arizona*
Canyon Villas at Desert Ridge (2BR LO)
2019 Property Tax Fee $35.20
*2019 Replacement Reserve $386.98*
2019 Operating Fee $1,035.65

Westin Kierland Villas 2BR LO
2019 Operating Assessment $1,203.22
*2019 Replacement Reserves $300.00 *
2019 Estimated Real Estate Tax $62.09

*Orlando*
Marriott's Grande Vista 2BR - Platinum Season
2019 Operating Fee $850.18
*2019 Replacement Reserve $342.93*
2019 Property Tax Fee $163.59

Sheraton Vistana Villages - Bella 2BR - Prime Season
2019 Operating Assessment $739.86
*2019 Replacement Reserves $253.19*
2019 Estimated Real Estate Tax $134.07

*Desert Springs CA*
Marriott's Desert Springs Villas II
2019 Master Operating $68.41
2019 Master Reserve $46.98
2019 Operating Fee $854.22
*2019 Replacement Reserve $466.68*

Sheraton Desert Oasis 2BR LO
2019 Operating Assessment $1133.39
*2019 Replacement Reserves $339.29*

These numbers are from the MF threads for each system. As you can see, Marriott properties set aside significantly more reserves that Vistana. Do Vistana properties cost less to renovate every 5 and 10 years than Marriott? Is Marriott wasting owner's money or buying better quality goods? We don't really know without digging in to all the details. However it would seem that if Vistana increased the reserves to match those at similar Marriott properties, you would have increases in the overall MFs as follows;

5.97% - Westin Kierland Villas 2BR LO
6.61% - Sheraton Vistana Villages - Bella 2BR - Prime Season
8.86% - Sheraton Desert Oasis 2BR LO

I am sure we could compare them at all locations where they both have properties and see consistent results.

Of course the actual specific cause of the increase in the fees won't be known until after the board meetings and for most after we get our MF bills. Will it be attributed to the Replacement Reserve fee? Perhaps or perhaps not. But given the increases reported for Westin Aventuras and Westin Flex, we know it is attributed to the MFs of the underlying deeds. For Westin Flex, perhaps that could be attributed to Nanea being added. For Westin Aventuras, there are two new properties added. We will just have to wait and see.

However, I would expect that MVW will push the boards to bring their reserves up to par because there is a big disparity between the reserve fee at properties in the same area.


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## Ken555 (Sep 1, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> If we compare similar resorts between Marriott and Vistana, we will notice in many cases that Marriott has a heavier Replacement Reserve;
> 
> *Arizona*
> Canyon Villas at Desert Ridge (2BR LO)
> ...



It’s difficult to compare reserve contributions without also considering the amount currently in the reserve, and view the reserve study for the property (assuming they have a reliable one). At the moment you’re just comparing reserve contributions for resorts in similar regions with the implied rationale that their reserve should be similar, when in reality that may not be accurate. Or am I missing something? 


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## Ken555 (Sep 1, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> The $80 is not profit to Marriott, it is reserve spending.



This is a truly hilarious statement. If Marriott really does do this then they’ve done a great job of getting paid twice for the same money, as already posted. I find it absurd that any management firm would even consider floating such an idea.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2019)

Ken555 said:


> This is a truly hilarious statement. If Marriott really does do this then they’ve done a great job of getting paid twice for the same money, as already posted. I find it absurd that any management firm would even consider floating such an idea.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Please explain how they would be getting paid twice. They don't earn a management fee on reserve spending only on money collected for operations and taxes.


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## cubigbird (Sep 1, 2019)

DavidnRobin said:


> Really? That is some serious speculation.
> I’d wager that a 6.5-7% increase in 2020 will not happen for most deeded VSE VOIs.
> (Based on the last 5 years of increases)
> 
> ...



If we see increases like this across the board I bet we see an increase in the delinquency rate as well.


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## cubigbird (Sep 1, 2019)

Ken555 said:


> This is a truly hilarious statement. If Marriott really does do this then they’ve done a great job of getting paid twice for the same money, as already posted. I find it absurd that any management firm would even consider floating such an idea.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Is the whole concept of Flex to be paid twice??  TS companies looking for ways to get paid twice isn’t a new idea.....


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## Ken555 (Sep 1, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> Please explain how they would be getting paid twice. They don't earn a management fee on reserve spending only on money collected for operations and taxes.



It seems I, and perhaps others, misinterpreted your earlier post. I certainly thought you wrote that they would get paid on the amount contributed to the reserves. Then, they would get paid again when they spend the money.


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## controller1 (Sep 1, 2019)

DavidnRobin said:


> Really? That is some serious speculation.
> I’d wager that a 6.5-7% increase in 2020 will not happen for most deeded VSE VOIs.
> (Based on the last 5 years of increases)
> 
> ...



I'm not sure it is speculation.  The 94% is a calculated number based on the explanation given by Vistana to me in my invoice for Westin Flex.  It stated the increase was due to increases in MFs in the underlying timeshare properties.

I hope I'm wrong, but if I am then the wording provided by Vistana for the increase is extremely poorly communicated.  Exactly what is your interpretation of the data?


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2019)

jabberwocky said:


> According to Exhibit C of the Westin Flex Governing Document (Budget and Assessments) the developer guaranteed each owner that the total annual assessments would not exceed $0.01893 per point up until Dec. 31, 2019.
> 
> Is it possible that this guarantee kept the MF's below where they actually should have been in order to sell more Flex and as a result we're seeing a higher than normal increase now that the guarantee is gone?  It will be interesting to see how it plays out with the underlying resorts MF's over the next few weeks as assessments start rolling in.


I did miss this post somehow. It does seem that there was a guaranty in place that could have been artificially keeping Flex MFs low. We will have to wait and see what happens here once the weeks based MF bills start coming in.

Even still, over time I do expect Vistana reserve funding to increase to be more in line with where Marriott properties are. Vistana isn't doing something magical to keep their need for reserve funding low, unless Marriott is wasting owners money. Which is very possible and even likely. We see lots of pet projects at Marriott resorts. Towel folding machine, entertainment big screen for movies poolside, tiling all the exterior hallways at Grande Vista. The money comes from reserves. Perhaps we will see these things come to a Vistana resort near you?


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## controller1 (Sep 1, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> I did miss this post somehow. It does seem that there was a guaranty in place that could have been artificially keeping Flex MFs low. We will have to wait and see what happens here once the weeks based MF bills start coming in.
> 
> Even still, over time I do expect Vistana reserve funding to increase to be more in line with where Marriott properties are. Vistana isn't doing something magical to keep their need for reserve funding low, unless Marriott is wasting owners money. Which is very possible and even likely. We see lots of pet projects at Marriott resorts. Towel folding machine, entertainment big screen for movies poolside, tiling all the exterior hallways at Grande Vista. The money comes from reserves. Perhaps we will see these things come to a Vistana resort near you?



And that would be the reason and if it is, that should have been in the explanation that the increase was due to the prior years' increases in MFs of the underlying properties which would have been better understood than what was stated.

But even with that, Westin Flex has just been around since 2018 so it's not like there is a lot of history with the product.


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## cubigbird (Sep 1, 2019)

Seems like Westin Flex MF are quickly coming inline with the cost to rent.  I bet the delinquency % will increase fairly quickly when owners figure this out and just walk.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2019)

They did specifically mention increases in reserve spending to achieve long-term funding objectives. So it isn't so far fetched to expect reserve amounts to increase on the underlying weeks.


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## DannyTS (Sep 1, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> They did specifically mention increases in reserve spending to achieve long-term funding objectives. So it isn't so far fetched to expect reserve amounts to increase on the underlying weeks.
> 
> View attachment 13755


This is the kind of vague corporate verbiage that makes me very suspicious.


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## DannyTS (Sep 1, 2019)

cubigbird said:


> Seems like Westin Flex MF are quickly coming inline with the cost to rent.  I bet the delinquency % will increase fairly quickly when owners figure this out and just walk.


If this happens Marriott will just pick up some cheap inventory


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> This is the kind of vague corporate verbiage that makes me very suspicious.


The good thing, as weeks owners, is that we will get to see the full financial breakdown once they start sending out the notice of BOD meetings (budget meetings).


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## DannyTS (Sep 1, 2019)

Does anyone know how the resorts reserves are reported in the MVW balance sheet? If they report it as corporate cash  it would certainly improve their financial ratios and be able to borrow cheaper thus improving their profits.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> Does anyone know how the resorts reserves are reported in the MVW balance sheet? If they report it as corporate cash  it would certainly improve their financial ratios and be able to borrow cheaper thus improving their profits.


I don't believe they report them at all, see section A-19 here. These are held in association accounts.


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## DannyTS (Sep 1, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> I don't believe they report them at all, see section A-19 here. These are held in association accounts.


Say they keep 5 millions in reserves for each property. For 100 properties it is not hard to imagine a bank giving them a lot of favors for depositing 500 millions. So even if they do not report it in their balance sheet they can still benefit from it quite a bit. I am being very conservative here. in 2018 Lagunamar reported $147,000 in interest revenue. SVV is expecting $189,000 in 2019. Since I assume these deposits are short term in nature, the reserves can be more than 10 million dollars per resort so they can certainly get a deal for 1 billion dollars or more that they deposit at a certain bank.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> Say they keep 5 millions in reserves for each property. For 100 properties it is not hard to imagine a bank giving them a lot of favors for depositing 500 millions with them. So even if they do not report it in their balance sheet they can still benefit from it quite a bit. I am being very conservative here. in 2018 Lagunamar reported $147,000 in interest revenue. Since I assume these deposits are short term in nature, the reserves can be double if not triple per resort.


I am not sure they drop all the money in to a single bank account. It is up to each HOA/BOD to decide where to put the money. Marriott doesn't decide. At Grande Vista, the board wants all the reserve money to be fully insured by FDIC. So that means spreading it out over many, perhaps hundreds of different institutions since the limit is $250,000 per institution.


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## controller1 (Sep 1, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure they drop all the money in to a single bank account. It is up to each HOA/BOD to decide where to put the money. Marriott doesn't decide. At Grande Vista, the board wants all the reserve money to be fully insured by FDIC. So that means spreading it out over many, perhaps hundreds of different institutions since the limit is $250,000 per institution.



It's highly unlikely they have deposits in hundreds of different institutions due to FDIC insurance limits.  Most large corporations do not look upon the FDIC insurance limits as something that really concern them during their due diligence of which banks to use.  The cost of using hundreds of banks would be much larger than the risk it is mitigating.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 2, 2019)

controller1 said:


> It's highly unlikely they have deposits in hundreds of different institutions due to FDIC insurance limits.  Most large corporations do not look upon the FDIC insurance limits as something that really concern them during their due diligence of which banks to use.  The cost of using hundreds of banks would be much larger than the risk it is mitigating.


You would think, but I have been to two Grande Vista BOD meetings and they have explicitly indicated that they wanted their reserve funds covered 100% by FDIC insurance. These are the individual boards, not the corporations funds. The board needs that money within the next 10 years and it seems they aren't willing to take the gamble. I don't really get it either, but that is what they have said.


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## controller1 (Sep 2, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> You would think, but I have been to two Grande Vista BOD meetings and they have explicitly indicated that they wanted their reserve funds covered 100% by FDIC insurance. These are the individual boards, not the corporations funds. The board needs that money within the next 10 years and it seems they aren't willing to take the gamble. I don't really get it either, but that is what they have said.



That's crazy.  Buy a short-term treasury and be done with it!  But you also may have some boards that have very little financial acumen.


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## Ken555 (Sep 2, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> You would think, but I have been to two Grande Vista BOD meetings and they have explicitly indicated that they wanted their reserve funds covered 100% by FDIC insurance. These are the individual boards, not the corporations funds. The board needs that money within the next 10 years and it seems they aren't willing to take the gamble. I don't really get it either, but that is what they have said.



Are those Marriott controlled boards or independent? 


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## Ken555 (Sep 2, 2019)

controller1 said:


> It's highly unlikely they have deposits in hundreds of different institutions due to FDIC insurance limits.  Most large corporations do not look upon the FDIC insurance limits as something that really concern them during their due diligence of which banks to use.  The cost of using hundreds of banks would be much larger than the risk it is mitigating.



FWIW: https://www.bankrate.com/banking/savings/6-ways-to-insure-excess-deposits/


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## dioxide45 (Sep 2, 2019)

Ken555 said:


> Are those Marriott controlled boards or independent?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Hard to say. Like Vistana, the boards are somewhat hand picked. People nominate themselves, but they go through a selection committee. We do have more choice of people to vote for on Grande Vista's board than we do for SVV. At SVV this year, there were two nominees on the ballot and it said to vote for up to two. What kind of vote is that? They are filling two positions with two people also picked by a nominating committee. Unless someone nominates someone at the meeting and votes them in, the board for SVV is hand picked. For Grande Vista it does seem that the board is more owner controlled and this is based on experience at two BOD meetings in person. However, the board is pretty much a pushover and just about rubber stamps most things. They did manage to keep Grande Vista's MFs under $1500 for 2019 even though Marriott came to the meeting asking for more.


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## Ken555 (Sep 2, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> Hard to say. Like Vistana, the boards are somewhat hand picked. People nominate themselves, but they go through a selection committee. We do have more choice of people to vote for on Grande Vista's board than we do for SVV. At SVV this year, there were two nominees on the ballot and it said to vote for up to two. What kind of vote is that? They are filling two positions with two people also picked by a nominating committee. Unless someone nominates someone at the meeting and votes them in, the board for SVV is hand picked. For Grande Vista it does seem that the board is more owner controlled and this is based on experience at two BOD meetings in person. However, the board is pretty much a pushover and just about rubber stamps most things. They did manage to keep Grande Vista's MFs under $1500 for 2019 even though Marriott came to the meeting asking for more.



I am very pessimistic about any Marriott or Vistana board dictating their reserve fund investments in any specific method. Since you state the board explicitly stated they want their funds FDIC insured, as an owner I suggest you ask for details. In the absence of proof, I don’t believe it and neither should you.


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## DannyTS (Sep 2, 2019)

Was there a board decision in that sense or some board members just asked for this (and possibly ignored)? In any case, even if they do it at Grande Vista it still does not mean they do it at all the Marriott and Vistana resorts.I just do not see each resort dealing with tens of banks.


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## controller1 (Sep 2, 2019)

Ken555 said:


> FWIW: https://www.bankrate.com/banking/savings/6-ways-to-insure-excess-deposits/
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




The article has manageable recommendations for individuals but the vast majority of large corporations are not going to follow those six ways.


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## Ken555 (Sep 2, 2019)

controller1 said:


> The article has manageable recommendations for individuals but the vast majority of large corporations are not going to follow those six ways.



I found it interesting that there are services to help open and manage multiple accounts for this very purpose.

I believe most corporations keep funds in multiple accounts with various ways to minimize risk, but not via FDIC. I’m sure we could find out if we were really that interested. 


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