# American Airlines



## Kauai Kid (Sep 29, 2012)

Time has a Front Cover article on AA and claim that AA's CEO has the worst job in the country.  AA has not hired a flight attendant in 12 years.

Morning paper has another article about how many AA flights were delayed, late, or canceled yesterday.

Woe to me.  AA to Kauai in November, AA to Maui in March.

Lots of AA frequent flyer miles

What to do??  Merge with US Air or go out of business completely. 

Sterling


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## bogey21 (Sep 29, 2012)

My ex-wife is an American Flight Attendent with enough seniority to be job secure.  If her opinion of American's Management is correct and shared by the majority of their employees, they need a new owner.

George


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## Joan-OH (Sep 30, 2012)

AA already cancelled my Oct 16-23 flight to LRM that I booked with miles and no replacement flights available.  So we eat the cost of the resort and cancelled the trip as tickets now are $800+

I am booked Feb 5-20 to CUN and realized the 5th is on a Tuesday, so am worried they will cancel that one too as the Tuesday flights have been getting the hatchet.  I don't know if I'll ever be able to use my miles.

Joan-OH


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## Pedro (Sep 30, 2012)

Joan-OH said:


> AA already cancelled my Oct 16-23 flight to LRM that I booked with miles and no replacement flights available.  So we eat the cost of the resort and cancelled the trip as tickets now are $800+
> 
> I am booked Feb 5-20 to CUN and realized the 5th is on a Tuesday, so am worried they will cancel that one too as the Tuesday flights have been getting the hatchet.  I don't know if I'll ever be able to use my miles.
> 
> Joan-OH


Although flights to LRM appear to be gone, AA still has plenty of flights available to PUJ and SDQ on your dates.  Could you have used one of those options instead?


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## Joan-OH (Sep 30, 2012)

Pedro said:


> Although flights to LRM appear to be gone, AA still has plenty of flights available to PUJ and SDQ on your dates.  Could you have used one of those options instead?




Those flights are available, but taking a 2 hour cab ride  in the DR to the resort at night in the dark is way outside my comfort level for sure.  Resort is only 20 minutes from LRM.  Of course at the late date they cancelled my tickets, no award tickets were available and we didn't want to go there enough to spend $1500 - $2K on airfare.

Joan-OH


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## persia (Oct 1, 2012)

With decent carriers like Southwest and JetBlue who needs the discount carriers like AA?


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## lvhmbh (Oct 1, 2012)

Depends on where you're flying and the schedule.  We are doing AA to Boston because of schedule.  We would have done JetBlue but NEVER Southwest.  Even our 15 year old dislikes Southwest.


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## Rent_Share (Oct 1, 2012)

bogey21 said:


> My ex-wife is an American Flight Attendent with enough seniority to be job secure. If her opinion of American's Management is correct and shared by the majority of their employees, they need a new owner.
> 
> George


 
Yes they do but not Useless Air which is currently run by the former CEO of America's Worst


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## elaine (Oct 1, 2012)

Joan-OH, I assume you are referring to award travel on other airlines, b/c I believe that AA would book you on any AA flight with seats--not just FF seats, and if your flight is canceled, then into alternate airports, if you choose.


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## Carolinian (Oct 1, 2012)

Read FlyerTalk.com about what is really going on at AA.  Dougie Parker of US is trying to take over, and the pilots union at AA is backing him.  They are engaged in a labor slow down to try to hurt the airline.  Some have reported taxiing tours to parts of airports they did not know existed before bothering to take off.  Others reports pilots doing mechanical writeups for frivolous things like stains on cockpit seats just to cause delays.

Eventually, AA will get enough evidence together to prove what the pilots (of course not all of them, but the gung-ho union activists) are doing and get a court injunction to stop the nonsense.  Hopefully, they can also get enough to recover money damages from the union, enough to make it have to file for bankruptcy kill off the union for good.

AA has the only ff plan left that is worth a crap, so I will stick with them whatever the unions decide to throw at them.

And Dougie Parker of US would be a disaster for AA passengers.

It is also being reported over at FT that the pilots at American Eagle, who are represented by a different union, are NOT playing the same games with delays that some of those on mainline AA are doing.


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## Hobo1 (Oct 1, 2012)

Actually the American flight delays and cancellations are not due to a labor slowdown by the pilots but because of a pilot shortage at American. American's refusal to negotiate last year with the pilots on a new contract led to a majority of senior pilots taking early retirement before another new contract was presented. This created a situation where American had more airplanes than they had pilots, add to that the number of pilots who became eligible for retirement this year and American was forced to cancel flights for the remainder of 2012 where they had no available flight crew.

Stains on cockpit seats is not a mechanical problem. 

Seats that are not bolted down, dents or cracks in engine fan blades, tires that do not have the correct air pressure, bent landing gears, excessive oil leaks, broken lavatories, blown fuses, and non-working cockpit instruments and lights, these are all mechanical problems that are not the fault of the pilots but they are required to report them so the aircraft is airworthy or safe to fly. Pilots don't fix planes, mechanics do, and the pilots have no control as to when those repairs will be made or finished. Did you know an American pilot does not begin earning their pay until s/he pushes back from the gate?

If one were to go to the FAA website they would find that the FAA keeps a record of all reported mechanical problems, by airline, that shows the reasons, facts, rather then the opinions for delays and cancellations posted on flyertalk or some other traveler forum by the uninformed.


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## Kauai Kid (Oct 1, 2012)

*AA Schedule Changes Today for Nov Trip*

Had it booked months ago:  Austin TX-LAX-LIH 740 am-120 pm

AA changed it to AUS-LAX-LIH 1215p-810 pm then drive the pitch black road to Princeville.  

Arranged with AA after waiting 20 min to arrive 436 pm via HNL taking 3 connections.

Return flight previously was two connections--now three.

Looks like I gotta start flying someone else United or US Air.


Sterling


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## Ken555 (Oct 1, 2012)

Apparently AA had a flight land early today at NYC en route to the west coast because of three seats that weren't bolted down. That's somewhat unforgivable. And I've always liked AA.


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## Kauai Kid (Oct 1, 2012)

Rent_Share said:


> Yes they do but not Useless Air which is currently run by the former CEO of America's Worst



My only experience with US Air has been Texas-Phoenix-Maui.

Only problem one time when they had to change a tire. 20-30 minute delay

I sure don't hear anything good about them on TUG though.

Sterling


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## hypnotiq (Oct 1, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> Apparently AA had a flight land early today at NYC en route to the west coast because of three seats that weren't bolted down. That's somewhat unforgivable. And I've always liked AA.



http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/02/us-american-airlines-seats-idUSBRE89102L20121002

8 planes grounded for loose seats.


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## Carolinian (Oct 2, 2012)

A sudden rash of questionable to fictitious ''mechaniscal'' problems that suddenly started after the union decided to go to war with AA on behalf of US ARE INDEED a union slowdown and it is not the first time it has happened in the airline industry.  In the past, airlines have eventually gotten enough evidence to go to court to get an injunction to stop the nonsense, and I am sure that will happen here as well.  I only hope that they can also soak the union for money damages and hopefully bankrupt the union and put it out of business.  The pilots at American Eagle, represented by a different union are NOT pulling the crap that some of the mainline pilots are.

Absence of flight crews has NOT been a reason for the delays and cencellations, so the argument about retirements just does not hold water.  It sounds like you have been fed a union excuse.




Hobo1 said:


> Actually the American flight delays and cancellations are not due to a labor slowdown by the pilots but because of a pilot shortage at American. American's refusal to negotiate last year with the pilots on a new contract led to a majority of senior pilots taking early retirement before another new contract was presented. This created a situation where American had more airplanes than they had pilots, add to that the number of pilots who became eligible for retirement this year and American was forced to cancel flights for the remainder of 2012 where they had no available flight crew.
> 
> Stains on cockpit seats is not a mechanical problem.
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Oct 2, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/02/us-american-airlines-seats-idUSBRE89102L20121002
> 
> 8 planes grounded for loose seats.



The question is whether this allegation is true or just made up by union pilots. A sudden rash of these strongly suggests the latter.


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## Carolinian (Oct 2, 2012)

Kauai Kid said:


> My only experience with US Air has been Texas-Phoenix-Maui.
> 
> Only problem one time when they had to change a tire. 20-30 minute delay
> 
> ...



Piedmont used to be one of the airlines I flew, and after US took over Piedmont, they largely ruined what had been a great airline.  They are called Useless Air for a raason.


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## Twinkstarr (Oct 2, 2012)

Carolinian said:


> Piedmont used to be one of the airlines I flew, and after US took over Piedmont, they largely ruined what had been a great airline.  They are called Useless Air for a raason.



Used to love Piedmont too. I avoid Useless Air like the plague. I follow a bunch of NASCAR media types on Twitter who either live around ESPN HQ or Charlotte(Useless Air territories) and every Thursday from Feb-Nov it's always some sort of delay and it's not always weather.


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## Ken555 (Oct 2, 2012)

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/01/travel/american-airlines-customers-complaining


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## nalismom (Oct 3, 2012)

Flew AA DFW-HNL 9/24 scheduled 1050 departure...pulled away from gate approximately 1105...... Sat on plane pushed back from gate for half hour until advised by pilot that they could not open a valve on one of engines so needed to go back to gate to have mechanics manually open it and then we could take off.....another half hour to move plane back to gate ......about 150 ft.....pilot comes on after back at gate with 'good news' and 'bad news'...good news is they (the pilots) were able to close the valve while moving back to gate....no mechanics involved.....bad news....mechanics now have to do paperwork......finally underway hour and a half later.

Sure sounds like a slowdown own to me.......

Two days ago AA changed a connecting return flight on 11/23  that is on same PNR as 1st flight....original itinerary was Cape Air ACK-BOS 530 pm arriving 615 pm connecting to AA flt departing BOS 845 pm arriving DFW 1205 am...changed to Cape Air 11/23 530 pm arrive BOS 615 pm connecting to AA departing 11/23 at 440 PM arriving DFW 805 pm....explain to me how we could connect to a flight leaving an hour and 35 minutes before we actually land in BOS!!!!  Spent two days of vacation in Kauai resolving this mess given that this is Thanksgiving Weekend and flights are full!!    Because of their change we now have to spend a night at Boston hotel to connect to next flight.....all on our dime!  Oh....and we were not tidied of this change....I checked my flights after reading of the travel messes of others above...so check your flights daily for up to date info.


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## lvhmbh (Oct 3, 2012)

Have a flight from Miami to Boston tomorrow night - return Monday afternoon - Keeping my fingers crossed.  We're in 1st so they usually try to keep you appeased but the kids are in coach (3 of them).  Will tell them to get drinks and snacks to take on and will feed them ahead.


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## beejaybeeohio (Oct 3, 2012)

DH has flights to PHX booked on AA for next month- so far no changes.  Earlier this week we were notified our flights to EGE in Feb were changed to a later departure and subsequent arrival.

I'm sitting on enuf AA miles to book lowest mileage level first class one-way tix to Beijing for a flight in 18 months from now.  We could also use the miles for r/t to Italy for a year from now, but with AA routing thru London the taxes are outrageous at @$700pp!!  

Also have enuf Conited miles for either the Italy or China routings.

My plan is to use the AA miles for Beijing and the UA miles for Italy, but am concerned that AA may be a goner by then.  I posted this concern on another bbs and most responses indicated that AA will be around even if US Air buys them/merges.


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## Hobo1 (Oct 3, 2012)

Carolinian said:


> A sudden rash of questionable to fictitious ''mechaniscal'' problems that suddenly started after the union decided to go to war with AA on behalf of US ARE INDEED a union slowdown and it is not the first time it has happened in the airline industry.  In the past, airlines have eventually gotten enough evidence to go to court to get an injunction to stop the nonsense, and I am sure that will happen here as well.  I only hope that they can also soak the union for money damages and hopefully bankrupt the union and put it out of business.  The pilots at American Eagle, represented by a different union are NOT pulling the crap that some of the mainline pilots are.
> 
> Absence of flight crews has NOT been a reason for the delays and cencellations, so the argument about retirements just does not hold water.  It sounds like you have been fed a union excuse.



I was on a AA flight yesterday that was delayed because the backup battery that is responsible for the controllers on the right wing died. That's not a "fictitious problem". American has the oldest fleet in the industry and the planes are falling apart, that's one of the reasons they placed the largest order for new aircraft last year. You can't compare Eagle with American because the Eagle fleet is on average less than three years old compared to American's fleet average of 20 years.

As far as being "fed a union excuse", my neighbor, a crew scheduler, for American is quickly developing an ulcer cuz his department cannot come up with enough crews to staff all the scheduled flights and he's not union. If a flight is cancelled due to mechanical or even delayed as the flights this weekend because of the loose seats then the flights at the termination point are cancelled or delayed because they are usually waiting for that crew to pilot the next segment. It's not like Southwest or JetBlue where the crews stay with the same aircraft until they timeout. But here is something factual that the American pilots are doing in their "battle" with American management. They are refusing to work overtime. Once they max out their required flight hours for the month, agreed to in the last contract, they are finished. American relied on those pilots to fly the maximum number of hours allowed by the FAA and it's not happening today.  

American pilots don't have to implement a work slowdown it's inherent in the American system. 20 year old planes that are falling apart, a large contingent of senior pilots who have taken retirement in the last 24 months and pilots who are declining to fly overtime and you have the perfect storm.

And if you doubt any of the above then I direct your attention to American's annual report, not a union publication, because all that information and more can be found there.


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## MichaelColey (Oct 3, 2012)

We were on AA flights going to Hawaii on 9/10 and returning on 9/30.  The only way we were able to get 5 First Class tickets at saver rates was to split into two separate flights (my wife and the youngest on one, me and the older two on the other), 2 hours apart.  We were booked on direct flights, seated together, on 767s (lie flat seats), dinner flights -- should have been almost perfect.  We booked these back in December, before any of this came up.

As you might guess, we had problems on several of our AA flights.  My wife's flight out was delayed and she missed her connection to Maui (and they put them on the next one).  That was before the slowdown, so likely unrelated.  Returning home, my flight was cancelled.  They originally rebooked us in coach a day later, but after spending several hours (of our one day at Aulani -- ARGH!) on the phone with them, they were able to get us on earlier flights, back in First (on two of three flights).  Of course we went from a direct flight to three segments, flying on a 717, a 757 and a 737 (minimal recline) instead of a 767 (lie flat seating), seated separately, and with a nasty snack instead of dinner.  My wife's flight back was delayed enough that her direct flight barely beat us home.

Also, for those saying it's not a work slowdown, take a look at the on time arrival rate (normally an average of about 80%) which was only 53% on 9/27.


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## hypnotiq (Oct 3, 2012)

Carolinian said:


> The question is whether this allegation is true or just made up by union pilots. A sudden rash of these strongly suggests the latter.



I think the fact that 3 flights have had the seats come loose and had to make unscheduled landings because the passengers have fallen backwards indicates this isnt something being made up.


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## timeos2 (Oct 3, 2012)

I already place AA very low on my list usually due to high prices.  If they get absorbed by USAir it wil have to be my last, desperation fallback choice. USAir has become totally unreliable and adding the poor service, old planes and high pricing of AA isn't going to improve them.


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## Kauai Kid (Oct 3, 2012)

*AA Schedule Changes today for Mar trip*

Got the email from AA "Changes to Flight Schedule" this morning.

Going to Maui plane leaves 5 minutes earlier--gives them time to bolt our seats down.:hysterical:

Returning ain't so funny:  OGG-DFW 5pm-5am

Then the flight home originally left 720 am  not bad

Now it leaves at 940 am

Sit around DFW for over 4 hours.  

If American is trying to loose my business they are succeeding.

Sterling


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## Ken555 (Oct 3, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> I already place AA very low on my list usually due to high prices.



High prices? On AA? I usually find them amongst the lowest for coach fares, especially to the east coast. I haven't bought tickets with them in the last year or two since I started flying Virgin instead, but I used to all the time and they were not any more expensive than other carriers.

As for the issue in general, I think there's enough blame to go around. The airline has not upgraded its fleet over the years sufficiently (I remember when some of those planes were new and great!), and the bankruptcy hasn't helped. The union and pilots are also not innocent of all blame, either. There's definitely enough anecdotal evidence to convince me that the pilots are doing their part to cause issues with AA. So, I blame them all, and I will fly a different carrier.


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## winger (Oct 3, 2012)

Just last week, I was checking an LAX-LIH flight scheduled to depart around 8:55AM ...  THAT flight did NOT leave until around 5:30PM IIRC.  That was due to an "equipment change".  I could NOT imagine hanging at the airport for that many hours - when I could have maybe hung out at the hotel (10 mins away?).


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## Hobo1 (Oct 3, 2012)

Also, for those saying it's not a work slowdown, take a look at the on time arrival rate (normally an average of about 80%) which was only 53% on 9/27.[/QUOTE]


If you have fewer crews then you have scheduled planes to fly and the planes are not properly maintained then you will have delays and cancellations and the arrival percentages are going to decline. No argument there.

The interesting thing is that everyone wants to point the finger at the pilots for causing the delays. But consider this, the delays did not begin until after American furloughed 11,000 mechanics, closed two of their largest maintenance facilities, and began outsourcing their heavy maintenance to firms in South America.


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## Pedro (Oct 3, 2012)

I think a lot of the mechanical "issues" are somewhat exagerated by the pilots. What really bothers me is when after landing they taxi to the gate at a very slow speed. I fly pretty much exclusively on AA, typically 4 segments every week and sometimes more and I've experienced mechanical delays in only one of my last 20 segments, so it might not be as bad as the press makes it sound (or maybe I've been lucky. The one mechanical delay I experienced was last week where the plane actually left 4 hours late. Didn't really bother me much since I was at the Flagship Lounge at ORD where we had free food, drinks, and internet access. My flights today have been on time, and my next segment tonight (DFW-MCO) also appears to be on time (keeping my fingrs crossed).


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## Carolinian (Oct 4, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> I already place AA very low on my list usually due to high prices.  If they get absorbed by USAir it wil have to be my last, desperation fallback choice. USAir has become totally unreliable and adding the poor service, old planes and high pricing of AA isn't going to improve them.



Actually, if you look at AA's massive plane order, it will in a few years have a younger fleet than its US rivals.

As to service, at least as a AAdvantage Plat, I get a heck of a lot better service than from any other domestic airline.  An example on IRROPS was earlier this year, my TATL flight into Miami got delayed leaving LHR, and when I got into MIA, there was an AA staff member waiting for me as I got off the plane with hotel voucher, meal voucher, and new boarding pass for the next morning.  On other domestic airlines, even as an elite, I have had to wait in a line for that.

As to old planes, DL's ratty old 767's it uses on some TATL runs are worse than anything I have flown on AA.


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## Carolinian (Oct 4, 2012)

All of this started when the union decided to go to war with AA, in cahoots with theier supposed white knight, US Air.  It is not happening on American Eagle, which has a different pilots union.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who is doing it, and they should be severely punished for it.




Hobo1 said:


> Also, for those saying it's not a work slowdown, take a look at the on time arrival rate (normally an average of about 80%) which was only 53% on 9/27.


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## Ken555 (Oct 4, 2012)

Carolinian said:


> As to old planes, DL's ratty old 767's it uses on some TATL runs are worse than anything I have flown on AA.



I'm on one of those Saturday! Hope it's not as bad as you mention... Well, maybe it's a newer one, since it's supposed to have the flat beds in business.


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## timeos2 (Oct 4, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> High prices? On AA? I usually find them amongst the lowest for coach fares, especially to the east coast. I haven't bought tickets with them in the last year or two since I started flying Virgin instead, but I used to all the time and they were not any more expensive than other carriers.
> 
> As for the issue in general, I think there's enough blame to go around. The airline has not upgraded its fleet over the years sufficiently (I remember when some of those planes were new and great!), and the bankruptcy hasn't helped. The union and pilots are also not innocent of all blame, either. There's definitely enough anecdotal evidence to convince me that the pilots are doing their part to cause issues with AA. So, I blame them all, and I will fly a different carrier.



At least from Rochester they are consistently the highest cost. I've never seen them closer than $200+ more than United or USAir - $300+ Jetblue or Air Tran (converting now to Southwest). Just not competitive at all.


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## K&PFitz (Oct 4, 2012)

We like to go somewhere warm in winter, especially Mexico.  But it's getting harder to get flights out of St. Louis all the time.

Last Feb, we flew on AA from STL to DFW to PVR.  Because the plane engines wouldn't start in STL, we ended up stuck in a hotel without luggage in Dallas for the first night of our trip.

So this year, planning for Feb 2013, I put a two hour layover in Chicago in our trip, just in case AA screws up again.  They just sent me a change in schedule, cutting an hour out of the layover.  So much for planning.

And the cheapest flight this year on AA is $60 more than last year.

But, if we get stuck in Chicago, at least we have friends and family to visit.


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## Ken555 (Oct 4, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> At least from Rochester they are consistently the highest cost. I've never seen them closer than $200+ more than United or USAir - $300+ Jetblue or Air Tran (converting now to Southwest). Just not competitive at all.



Then I can only assume that's a market they've never wanted to compete in. They are quite competitive in other markets, obviously, or else they'd have gone out of business a long time ago...


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## cissy (Oct 5, 2012)

If you live on the east coast and want to travel along the east coast, AA is by far the most expensive.  Probably because one has to connect through Dallas/Fort Worth for anything that is not non-stop.  This not only adds a couple hundred dollars to the flight, but a couple hours as well.  I, for one, would welcome a merger with USAIR.


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## DaveNV (Oct 5, 2012)

Does anyone know whether this excessive on-time arrival failure is also happening on International flights?  I'm flying American SEA-DFW-CUN in a few weeks, and wondering whether the layover time in DFW will be shorter, and whether we'll be able to make our connections on time.

Dave


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## nalismom (Oct 5, 2012)

I don't think they are discriminating between domestic and international.....they are hitting international as well


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## DaveNV (Oct 5, 2012)

nalismom said:


> I don't think they are discriminating between domestic and international.....they are hitting international as well



Great... 

Dave


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## elaine (Oct 5, 2012)

DH's outbound flight "schedule change"  for flight 4 hrs later to DFW on monday! We rebooked out of alternate airport.
Return--4 hr mech delay! He's in the air now! He said 38 flights canX/delayed @ DWF today!
But, we snagged 5 FF tickets to Rome next summer--so AA is still Ok by me (for now).


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## HtownRose (Oct 5, 2012)

"Conited" ~ love it.  Lots of Houstonians still call them Continental.


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## GetawaysRus (Oct 6, 2012)

I've always had good service on AA, and I am pleased overall with how their employees are handling this current service slowdown.  So, in defense of AA, here's what happened to us....

My wife and I had award seats in business class from Southern California to Spain at the end of September (ONT --> DFW --> MAD, both legs on AA metal).  When we showed up for our 8 AM ONT to DFW flight, we learned that the plane had been taken by the earlier 6 AM flight.  No plane.  It didn't look good....

The AA  rep at the counter was working to rebook everyone.  We were offered a re-route:  BA from LAX to LHR in First Class, then Iberia business class from LHR to MAD.  This would cost us about a 5 hour delay, and it meant going through Heathrow (which I do not like to do), but it looked like a bird in the hand that would get us to Madrid and it was an upgrade to First class, so we took it.  AA paid for our taxi from ONT to LAX.  

It was a bit of a hassle getting into those First class seats.  Had to go back to the AA customer service counter at LAX and get them approved, but ultimately they were.  So AA is still taking care of its customers.

British Air First class on a 777-300 is a nice way to fly, by the way.

Our return to the USA will be on Iberia and British Air.  Hopefully there won't be any problems with those flights.


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## Carolinian (Oct 6, 2012)

cissy said:


> If you live on the east coast and want to travel along the east coast, AA is by far the most expensive.  Probably because one has to connect through Dallas/Fort Worth for anything that is not non-stop.  This not only adds a couple hundred dollars to the flight, but a couple hours as well.  I, for one, would welcome a merger with USAIR.



If you were a frequent flyer, especially if you had elite status in an ff program you would care alot.  AA has the only decent ff program, especially the elite side of it, that is still out there.  US has a crappy ff program (although better than UA's).  A US takeover would be the ruination of AA's ff program.


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## timeos2 (Oct 6, 2012)

Carolinian said:


> If you were a frequent flyer, especially if you had elite status in an ff program you would care alot.  AA has the only decent ff program, especially the elite side of it, that is still out there.  US has a crappy ff program (although better than UA's).  A US takeover would be the ruination of AA's ff program.



Unsustainable FF programs - like the over blown demands of Unions - are what drive the high costs of operation. In the current, cost cutting and value based world of air fare (and other goods & services) this throw back to more profitable and exclusive times cannot survive. They have to be competitive in pricing (they are not) and at those lower rates cannot support the high union rates or extravagant FF features. 

The buying public has spoken and they take price over service. Unless they plan to be a higher priced, boutique style airline AA has to join most others in lowering costs, prices & service levels.  They cannot survive as they are structured now.


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## x3 skier (Oct 6, 2012)

Said it before and will say it again. The good old days of FF programs is over. With the inflation of instant status by getting just about any credit card, fewer flights overall, ridiculous bonus miles offers, route shrinkage, consolidation and other factors, this ain't like it used to be. 

I still can work some good deals but unless you reach the highest tiers, FF status is just about only good for free baggage check.

Not matter AA, DL, BA, UA or whoever the race to the bottom is almost over and the result is going to be a tie. AA was behind into the race to the bottom (by that I mean superior to most) but will close the gap. Economics demands it.

Use your miles as fast as you can while they are still worth something 

Cheers


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## Carolinian (Oct 6, 2012)

Actually ff programs are quite profitable for airlines because of the money they get from hotels, car rental companies, banks, etc. for selling miles.  They also add to the bottom line indirectly in another way, by geting loyalty from high fare business travellers.  Without decent ff programs, many business travellers who now make a point of flying a particular airline will just fly price and schedule.  The business travellers are where the money is for airlines.

As to price, I totally disagree with you.  A good example is a biz trip I had back to the states in August.  My corporate travel office was pressing hard for their preferred airline, UA, harder than usual for some reason, and I had to look up my own flights on AA to stay on my preferred carrier.  I found an AA routing through IST that was $600 cheaper than the cheapest UA flight they found.  But pricing will vary by routes.  I am sure there will always be some routes where any airline out there (except maybe RyanAir and EasyJet) are going to be higher that others, and there will be routings where they are the lower price out there, too.




timeos2 said:


> Unsustainable FF programs - like the over blown demands of Unions - are what drive the high costs of operation. In the current, cost cutting and value based world of air fare (and other goods & services) this throw back to more profitable and exclusive times cannot survive. They have to be competitive in pricing (they are not) and at those lower rates cannot support the high union rates or extravagant FF features.
> 
> The buying public has spoken and they take price over service. Unless they plan to be a higher priced, boutique style airline AA has to join most others in lowering costs, prices & service levels.  They cannot survive as they are structured now.


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## Carolinian (Oct 6, 2012)

I don't know about you, but my Plat status at AA gets me lounge access on TATL flights (and that includes Galleries at LHR), early boarding, check-in through the 1st class line, special security lines (that can save an hour's time at LHR or IST, to name a couple), 2 free checked bags,  frequent first class upgrades on domestic legs (I am 100% since switching to AA, and was close to that on NW and CO), double ff miles, and premium coach seats on international flights (usually exit row).  

My award redemption is also great.  I had a summer redemption this year, and the circumstances only gave me about 6 weeks lead time.  Nonetheless, half of the days during the month I needed to travel were availible at saver milage rates on AA.  I would NEVER find that at that juncture for summer on DL, and not as much on UA, although better at UA than DL.



x3 skier said:


> Said it before and will say it again. The good old days of FF programs is over. With the inflation of instant status by getting just about any credit card, fewer flights overall, ridiculous bonus miles offers, route shrinkage, consolidation and other factors, this ain't like it used to be.
> 
> I still can work some good deals but unless you reach the highest tiers, FF status is just about only good for free baggage check.
> 
> ...


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## MichaelColey (Oct 6, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Unsustainable FF programs - like the over blown demands of Unions - are what drive the high costs of operation. In the current, cost cutting and value based world of air fare (and other goods & services) this throw back to more profitable and exclusive times cannot survive. They have to be competitive in pricing (they are not) and at those lower rates cannot support the high union rates or extravagant FF features.





x3 skier said:


> Said it before and will say it again. The good old days of FF programs is over. With the inflation of instant status by getting just about any credit card, fewer flights overall, ridiculous bonus miles offers, route shrinkage, consolidation and other factors, this ain't like it used to be.


 


Carolinian said:


> Actually ff programs are quite profitable for airlines because of the money they get from hotels, car rental companies, banks, etc. for selling miles. They also add to the bottom line indirectly in another way, by geting loyalty from high fare business travellers. Without decent ff programs, many business travellers who now make a point of flying a particular airline will just fly price and schedule. The business travellers are where the money is for airlines.


I think this is a first...  In this case, I totally agree with Carolinian.  FF programs are one of the more profitable parts of most airlines.  And while benefits have been cut back a bit over the past 10 years or so, I've actually seen an uptick in benefits over the past couple.  Airlines are looking for loyalty, and the FF programs bring it.  I have status with American, and I'll choose American over the competition even if the price is a bit higher.  That's what airlines like.


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## Ken555 (Oct 6, 2012)

GetawaysRus said:


> AA paid for our taxi from ONT to LAX.



Wow! That's probably an hour on the road, if not more. In a taxi. Paid by AA.  



> British Air First class on a 777-300 is a nice way to fly, by the way.
> 
> Our return to the USA will be on Iberia and British Air.  Hopefully there won't be any problems with those flights.



Again, wow. Upgrade to first on BA is great. I've never had those seats, but I hear they are among the best, along with their business class.

As for Iberia...well, don't hold your breath. I've been on one of their flights within Spain and it was fine, but delay was the name of the game.


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## Ken555 (Oct 6, 2012)

MichaelColey said:


> I think this is a first...  In this case, I totally agree with Carolinian.  FF programs are one of the more profitable parts of most airlines.  And while benefits have been cut back a bit over the past 10 years or so, I've actually seen an uptick in benefits over the past couple.  Airlines are looking for loyalty, and the FF programs bring it.  I have status with American, and I'll choose American over the competition even if the price is a bit higher.  That's what airlines like.



Yup, this used to be me, too. I liked AA. But now they have older planes, don't offer as much, and clearly have major problems to deal with. Given the choice, I'll fly another carrier these days. Domestically, my favorite is Virgin America. I'm hoping to use up my AA miles in the next year or so. This year was getting rid of Delta and I've still got enough for another business seat to Europe so not sure if I can go fast enough.


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## spencersmama (Oct 6, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> This year was getting rid of Delta and I've still got enough for another business seat to Europe so not sure if I can go fast enough.



If you really want to get those miles off your hands quickly, I'll take them!


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## Ken555 (Oct 6, 2012)

spencersmama said:


> If you really want to get those miles off your hands quickly, I'll take them!



Yeah, everytime I post that I'm getting rid of them volunteers show up to assist... No thanks. I got a 100k biz seat for this trip, same last year, and I suspect I can do similarly well next year and then the miles are all gone!


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## x3 skier (Oct 6, 2012)

Carolinian said:


> I don't know about you, but my Plat status at AA gets me lounge access on TATL flights (and that includes Galleries at LHR), early boarding, check-in through the 1st class line, special security lines (that can save an hour's time at LHR or IST, to name a couple), 2 free checked bags,  frequent first class upgrades on domestic legs (I am 100% since switching to AA, and was close to that on NW and CO), double ff miles, and premium coach seats on international flights (usually exit row).
> 
> My award redemption is also great.  I had a summer redemption this year, and the circumstances only gave me about 6 weeks lead time.  Nonetheless, half of the days during the month I needed to travel were availible at saver milage rates on AA.  I would NEVER find that at that juncture for summer on DL, and not as much on UA, although better at UA than DL.



Like I said, if you are at high tier, it is nice and I enjoy similar bennies but other than that, it is no big deal. 

A few years ago, low tiers were worth it. Now they are not much. I predict the erosion of FF programs will continue.

Fortunately I have reactivated my pilots license so I can fly myself now and avoid all the BS associated with domestic air travel if I want to. 

Cheers


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## MichaelColey (Oct 6, 2012)

x3 skier said:


> A few years ago, low tiers were worth it. Now they are not much. I predict the erosion of FF programs will continue.


I have to disagree again.  Since airlines started charging for checked bags, low tier status has two perks that are even more valuable than ever:

1) Free checked bags, and
2) Priority boarding (so you know you'll have room for your carry ons).


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## GetawaysRus (Oct 7, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> Wow! That's probably an hour on the road, if not more. In a taxi. Paid by AA.



$135 on the meter at the end of the ride.


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## x3 skier (Oct 7, 2012)

MichaelColey said:


> I have to disagree again.  Since airlines started charging for checked bags, low tier status has two perks that are even more valuable than ever:
> 
> 1) Free checked bags, and
> 2) Priority boarding (so you know you'll have room for your carry ons).



Agree as I said about the bags but IIRC, the lowest tier gets second or third priority or even lower where they used to get first priority. 

Cheers


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## Carolinian (Oct 7, 2012)

MichaelColey said:


> I have to disagree again.  Since airlines started charging for checked bags, low tier status has two perks that are even more valuable than ever:
> 
> 1) Free checked bags, and
> 2) Priority boarding (so you know you'll have room for your carry ons).



UA whacked their two lowest tiers when they merged with CO, which was also a big whacking for the incoming CO elites.  For silvers, their two free bags were cut to one, which on international flights is the free baggage as those with no status.  For golds, they cut bonus miles from 100% to 50%.  They also played a whole series of games with upgrades and E+ that basically whacked everyone.  The published part only whacked silvers, but soon it was obvious that unannounced parts whacked all elites.

AA lower tiers can reserve premium seats including exit row, as NW lower tier elites could, and as a Plat I do not see that impacting my ability to get good seats, so I think it is good policy for the airline to offer that perk to low tier elites.  UA will not let low tier elites reserver exit row.


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## lvhmbh (Oct 7, 2012)

Our flight was on time.  We went to the lounge - thanks AMEX - and it was packed because they had so many cancellations.  Hope tomorrow is ok too


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## Ken555 (Oct 7, 2012)

MichaelColey said:


> I have to disagree again.  Since airlines started charging for checked bags, low tier status has two perks that are even more valuable than ever:
> 
> 1) Free checked bags, and
> 2) Priority boarding (so you know you'll have room for your carry ons).



Isn't it sad that you value elite status in part just to make certain the plane has space for your carry-on? I agree completely, but I think it speaks to the state of air travel.


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## MichaelColey (Oct 7, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> Isn't it sad that you value elite status in part just to make certain the plane has space for your carry-on? I agree completely, but I think it speaks to the state of air travel.


Actually, my favorite perk is the First Class upgrades, but the free checked bags is one of the more tangible perks.


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## x3 skier (Oct 8, 2012)

MichaelColey said:


> Actually, my favorite perk is the First Class upgrades, but the free checked bags is one of the more tangible perks.



If one gets a first class upgrade as a low tier elite, it should be considered a miracle and savored. 

Even at one tier below the highest on both AA and DL, my batting average is less than 50%. But I do travel thru their hubs which are heavy with top tier travelers. 

Last time thru DFW, I think I was No. 18 with 1 seat open and thru ATL, No. 23 with 2 seats open. If the client is paying, I buy full fare Y and usually get an immediate upgrade. 

Cheers


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## Rent_Share (Oct 8, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> Isn't it sad that you value elite status in part just to make certain the plane has space for your carry-on? I agree completely, but I think it speaks to the state of air travel.


 
Last Time I flew, (delta) it seemed like 1/2 the plane qualified for some bogus boarding priority


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## lvhmbh (Oct 9, 2012)

Flew back from Boston to Miami last night - plane was on time with no issues.  The lounge was uncrowded so the boys did their homework in peace and quiet.


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## hypnotiq (Oct 9, 2012)

Rent_Share said:


> Last Time I flew, (delta) it seemed like 1/2 the plane qualified for some bogus boarding priority



No kidding. When we flew last week.

"We will now begin pre-boarding"

"We now invite our first class passengers to board"

"We now invite anyone flying with small children to board"

"We now invite any of our MVP's (etc) as well as anyone sitting in Row 6 to board"

"We now invite anyone who *doesn't *have a carryon they need to place in an overhead bin to board"

"We will now begin general boarding..."


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## PamMo (Oct 9, 2012)

Same experience as *lvhmbh*. We just flew home from a vacation on Kauai. AA flights to and from Lihue (6 legs total) went flawlessly. DFW and LAX hubs were working smoothly when we went through them. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for my upcoming flights on AA...


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## momeason (Oct 9, 2012)

I have an AA credit card. I have FF miles earned thru the cc. When I have to use more than the economy level of miles to book a reward flight, I get put in first class. It is a great perk. I usually cannot find the economy miles level seats on US Air, but I have to use more miles and still sit in economy. I love that if I have to use more miles, I get first class seats and free bags on AA.

I also just had a bad schedule change for a flight to New Orleans in December. I was able to schedule a better connection by talking with an agent. 
That flight is also a reward with First Class seating.


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## SuzanneSLO (Oct 9, 2012)

momeason said:


> I have an AA credit card. I have FF miles earned thru the cc. When I have to use more than the economy level of miles to book a reward flight, I get put in first class. It is a great perk. I usually cannot find the economy miles level seats on US Air, but I have to use more miles and still sit in economy. I love that if I have to use more miles, I get first class seats and free bags on AA.
> 
> I also just had a bad schedule change for a flight to New Orleans in December. I was able to schedule a better connection by talking with an agent.
> That flight is also a reward with First Class seating.



I have never heard of someone booking a MileSAAver award in coach and getting a complimentary upgrade to first class.  It does entitle the passenger to sit in preferred coach seats.

However, for flights within the continental US, the # of miles needed for an AAnytime Award in coach are the same as the # of miles needed for a MileSAAver Award in First.  While it may feel like a complimentary upgrade, the MileSAAver Award in First is capacity controlled and may not always be an available.  -- Suzanne


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## nalismom (Oct 9, 2012)

Wow!  I filled out the form on AA website about our recent delay to HNL and included my debacle on our upcoming flight over Thanksgiving and was not really expecting anything except a thank you for your email but was pleasantly surprised in receiving an e-voucher for $300!


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## momeason (Oct 9, 2012)

SuzanneSLO said:


> I have never heard of someone booking a MileSAAver award in coach and getting a complimentary upgrade to first class.  It does entitle the passenger to sit in preferred coach seats.
> 
> However, for flights within the continental US, the # of miles needed for an AAnytime Award in coach are the same as the # of miles needed for a MileSAAver Award in First.  While it may feel like a complimentary upgrade, the MileSAAver Award in First is capacity controlled and may not always be an available.  -- Suzanne



The number of miles are the same so I chose first class. It worked from Cancun to RDU as well as RDU to New Orleans. I like that I can choose First Class rather than use more miles and still be in coach. Works for me. I am out of miles now though. Still have US air miles..will use them next then I have Southwest and Capital One Rewards


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## Ken555 (Oct 9, 2012)

SuzanneSLO said:


> I have never heard of someone booking a MileSAAver award in coach and getting a complimentary upgrade to first class.  It does entitle the passenger to sit in preferred coach seats.
> 
> However, for flights within the continental US, the # of miles needed for an AAnytime Award in coach are the same as the # of miles needed for a MileSAAver Award in First.  While it may feel like a complimentary upgrade, the MileSAAver Award in First is capacity controlled and may not always be an available.  -- Suzanne



Yup, but this is a perceived benefit, I suppose, compared to other frequent flyer programs.


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## Laurie (Oct 10, 2012)

So what's the verdict - book some AA ff flights now, at not the best ROI so to speak, or hold them to use later for more expensive trips?

I have a couple ff flights on hold to SXM, the saver kind at 17.5 each = 70k miles for 2 people RT. I can buy these flights for about $1200. Between us we have about 190k miles.

If all were well w/the airline, I'd save them for 2 pricier future trips to Europe in shoulder season where 80k ff miles can get 2 RT tix, and would have some to spare. 

One expires tonite and doesn't look like I can hold again because now they're showing at 35k per 1-way ticket.

What to do? I wish Dave M were around w/his crystal ball.


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## Carolinian (Oct 11, 2012)

You might get a better answer on FlyerTalk, but for me, I am not in a panic burning mode on my AA miles.  And that shoulder season to Europe deal is a better value than any other domestic airline.  On AA, those tickets are 40K miles RT compared to 60K on others.




Laurie said:


> So what's the verdict - book some AA ff flights now, at not the best ROI so to speak, or hold them to use later for more expensive trips?
> 
> I have a couple ff flights on hold to SXM, the saver kind at 17.5 each = 70k miles for 2 people RT. I can buy these flights for about $1200. Between us we have about 190k miles.
> 
> ...


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## Laurie (Oct 11, 2012)

Carolinian said:


> You might get a better answer on FlyerTalk, but for me, I am not in a panic burning mode on my AA miles.  And that shoulder season to Europe deal is a better value than any other domestic airline.  On AA, those tickets are 40K miles RT compared to 60K on others.


Yeah, I pulled the trigger last night at 11:59 for the not-great ones (after requesting they extend the hold, but they wouldn't because there were no more), and am kinda regretting it this morning ... but, I guess there are bigger problems to worry about than almost-free tickets to SXM! And I still have one Euro trip in the bank, which might have to wait until 2014.

I hope that cc promotion for 100k miles on BA comes around again - and hope anyone who sees it will post here. I don't visit FlyerTalk very often, and haven't been a savvy, dedicated ff user - but AA was perfect for going to Italy last fall (Alps, Venice, Rome) for free, balances helped by opening a couple of cc's, and there were plenty of flights available, and not very far in advance.


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