# ClubWyndham Access Program



## ferret (Jun 26, 2011)

I just sat through a pitch from a Wyndham VP on the Access program. Herewith a quick summary.
If I wish to sell my timeshare, I must by additional pts varying cost from $13,000 to $22,000. At some unspecified future date, I can then put my timeshare on the market with Wyndham acting as agent. Future costs will be higher. Wyndham will sell my contract at a higher price from that which I paid, and gain a profit. The buyer should get a discounted rate also.  While it sounds 'fair' I still see gaps in the logic. My understanding is that, to date, noboby has executed this process.

Any experiences out there?


----------



## vacationhopeful (Jun 26, 2011)

Simple answer - How can you tell when a salesman is not truthful and will not put it in writing?  The salesman's lips were moving.

For Example: How far, far, far off in the future? 100 hundred years?


----------



## ronparise (Jun 26, 2011)

ferret99 said:


> My understanding is that, to date, noboby has executed this process.
> 
> Any experiences out there?



Dosent that answer your question?   Nobody has executed this process, so no one has the experience...I agree with what Linda stopped short of saying: Wyndham will never sell your timeshare


But even if they do ...Lets see if this makes sense...You wish to sell your timeshare, but to do so you need to buy another one...

pay $15000 for the new one, then sell your old one at a small profit (lets assume for the sake of argument your profit is $5000) So if all goes according to plan, you still own a timeshare and you are out of pocket $10000

Why not give away your current timeshare and buy the new one on ebay. I bet you could make it happen for under $1000 (way under probably)



Dont be a putz, dont buy from Wyndham; buy on the secondary market


----------



## vacationhopeful (Jun 26, 2011)

Ron,
There has been the rumor of ROFR at several resorts - National Harbor is one. And possibly with Club Wyndham Access.

But that is far different from selling your timeshare at a PROFIT and acting as your agent.

It sounds like OP was being pitched a equity trade into Club Wyndham Access - a vacation club. Of course, they would only do that IF he brought additional points. As for in the future, listing and selling this club membership for the current owner?  Nothing I have ever heard of - Wyndham has more than enough product to sell without having to deal with sellers. 

And Ron, as a realtor, hand holding sellers and getting them to sign the sales documents sometimes have YOU THINKING, this IS truly NOT worth it the chump change I clear on this deal.


----------



## ronparise (Jun 26, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> .
> 
> And Ron, as a realtor, hand holding sellers and getting them to sign the sales documents sometimes have YOU THINKING, this IS truly NOT worth it the chump change I clear on this deal.



sometimes....


----------



## Sandi Bo (Jun 26, 2011)

*Recurring Sales Theme*

Isn't that the recurring theme at the Wyndham sales presentations?  Whether changing home resorts, or Wyndham having a better product that you should trade into, you ALWAYS have to purchase more points?


----------



## ferret (Jun 27, 2011)

*Roger that*

All of your comments mirror those of my wife and me. The presentation was as usual, valid until we check out, which was a nonstarter.


----------



## Rob&Carol Q (Jun 28, 2011)

ronparise said:


> Dont be a putz



Every now and then, I hear the faint whispering that can only be somebody channeling my old First Sergeant...though typically he would have finished that sentence with Jack*ss...

Fond memories, thank you.


----------



## tnlewis (Jul 1, 2011)

I am looking at a 154,000 pt ClubWyndham Access program with monthly MF of $76 for just closing cost and transfer fee($700)

I am looking for feedback from owners of ClubWyndham Access about how easy or difficult it is to book vacations with that APR at this time since so many resorts have now been included in the program and would it be better for me to keep looking for a home resort instead of the CWA program?

Tere


----------



## ronparise (Jul 1, 2011)

tnlewis said:


> I am looking at a 154,000 pt ClubWyndham Access program with monthly MF of $76 for just closing cost and transfer fee($700)
> 
> I am looking for feedback from owners of ClubWyndham Access about how easy or difficult it is to book vacations with that APR at this time since so many resorts have now been included in the program and would it be better for me to keep looking for a home resort instead of the CWA program?
> 
> Tere



I think it depends on the resort and how many units are in the Club Access program...For example at Avenue Plaza (it is in Club Access) there are a total of 240+ units in the building, but there is limited inventory to points owners. The directory says very limited (under 10)...The rest of the place is owned by weeks owners. 


La Belle Maison also in New Orleans is a new facility and I dont think there is any fixed weeks inventory.. I have the same question as you...If I want ARP here should I buy a La Belle Maison udi contract, or would Club Wyndham Access work? or put another way...Of the 140+ units at La Belle Maison, how many are Club Wyndham Access inventory..... 

_Time out to call Wyndham_


I dont think the wyndham folks know what they should, or Im not asking the question properly....The first person I spoke to said Club Wyndham Access owners and deeded owners all draw from the same inventory, but then he added Club Wyndham Access owners only have 11 month ARP. I know thats wrong, so I called back.....The next person said it makes no difference. Both classes of ownership have the same inventory available to them 13 months out.

So to answer your question and mine. It seems that it dosent make any difference when it comes to ARP. Club Wyndham Access works just as well as a deeded ownership. 

Im not convinced, but thats the answer I got today

I would be concerned if I was a deeded owner because Club Wyndham Access opens up ARP at my resort to so many more members. If Wyndham does what it looks like to me they are doing, ie to put everything they can in the Access Program; the value of ARP will be diluted because everybody will have it everywhere

I still have questions about Club Wyndham Access; specifically, why do different contracts have different mf (yours looks a little high to me). I thought this was a large trust  where they dumped ownership from multiple resorts. The end result should be a large pile of inventory, with many owners where the cost of ownership, (mf and special assessments) are averaged and spread across the entire owner base. I expect every Club Wyndham Access contract to have the same mf ($/point) but thats not the case...Are there multiple trusts?


----------



## learnalot (Jul 1, 2011)

ronparise said:


> I dont think the wyndham folks know what they should, or Im not asking the question properly....The first person I spoke to said Club Wyndham Access owners and deeded owners all draw from the same inventory, but then he added Club Wyndham Access owners only have 11 month ARP. I know thats wrong, so I called back.....The next person said it makes no difference. Both classes of ownership have the same inventory available to them 13 months out.
> 
> So to answer your question and mine. It seems that it dosent make any difference when it comes to ARP. Club Wyndham Access works just as well as a deeded ownership.
> 
> ...



Ron, 

I agree that the people you spoke to either don't understand the question or don't understand the rules.  I don't see how it could be the same pool of inventory because of the contractual ARP that goes with a UDI ownership.  Experiences I have heard people report trying to make an ARP reservation through Club Wyndham Access are that they have sometimes been successful, but other times have been told that the Club Wyndham Access ARP for that resort has already been used up.  

I'm not sure that you are confused about it, but others might be.  An analogy might be helpful in picturing this.  Let's consider a mega-owner who owns tens of millions of points deeded in various locations.  Even though they have tens of millions of points, there are still restrictions on what they can ARP with them.  You can't make an ARP reservation anywhere where you don't own enough points there to back up the reservation.  (There are some 11 month Reciprocal ARP situations written into various contracts, and at various VIP levels, but the regular ARP still gets the jump on those exceptions).  Now think of Club Wyndham Access as a mega-owner that has tens or hundreds of millions of points in their account - they still can't touch ARP where they don't have the points - or where the points have already been used for another reservation.

That is my understanding, based on both the reading of the contract language and from the accounts of owners in Club Wyndham Access.

Regarding the different mf's on Club Wyndham Access contracts - I'd say especially if you're dealing with ebay sellers, you will see a wide variance based on whether or not they are including the program fees (which I think are a different ratio based on EOY or every year anyway), etc.


----------



## ronparise (Jul 1, 2011)

learnalot

I was only reporting what they told me. They couldnt or wouldnt answer my direct question which was....how many units are available to me to ARP at La belle Maison as a Club Access Owner?. and how many as a regular points owner?

My understanding was that there are two trusts, each with their own specific deeds. there is a deed (or deeds) in one trust or the other to back up the points you have. I thought as you; during the ARP period you can only get to inventory deposited in your trust.

But I think we are wrong

I dont think , that there is any contractual obligation in one trust that dosent exist in the other...after all they are the same deeds. 

If you have deposited a UDI deed from  resort XYZ  in the Fairshare Trust, and I own  a piece of the Club Access Trust within which a UDI deed from the same resort is deposited; Dont we both have the same  right to ARP at that resort? 

 UDI deeds are just that...an undivided interest...It seems to me that preventing me from using your property or you from using mine (subject to availability) would  create a division among what are un-divided interests


----------



## ausman (Jul 1, 2011)

ronparise said:


> learnalot
> I was only reporting what they told me. They couldnt or wouldnt answer my direct question which was....how many units are available to me to ARP at La belle Maison as a Club Access Owner?



Right.

And until they can or will for all resorts, how can you evaluate such an ownership.


----------



## timeos2 (Jul 1, 2011)

basham said:


> Right.
> 
> And until they can or will for all resorts, how can you evaluate such an ownership.



You can safely assume the number to be but a small subset of other use rights - especially those that are in the "regular" Fairshare Plus (or whatever they are calling it this week). That mean you odds of getting it are far worse in the Access system than it would be as a more reasonably priced "regular", low cost resale ownership.  And both may be beat in real value by simply renting what you want as there are so many mega-owners as well as smaller ones always looking to rent to recover some fees.  As there is no obligation with that (except to pay the agreed rent) that may be the most flexible and cost effective choice of all. One that is guaranteed to be a loser is any retail purchase of any Wyndham product.  No exceptions.


----------



## learnalot (Jul 1, 2011)

ronparise said:


> learnalot
> 
> If you have deposited a UDI deed from  resort XYZ  in the Fairshare Trust, and I own  a piece of the Club Access Trust within which a UDI deed from the same resort is deposited; Dont we both have the same  right to ARP at that resort?
> 
> UDI deeds are just that...an undivided interest...It seems to me that preventing me from using your property or you from using mine (subject to availability) would  create a division among what are un-divided interests



Yes, but only for the points represented by each of our respective ownerships.  The difference here is the point I was making earlier.  If I have UDI at a particular resort, I own that UDI alone.  If the trust (Club Wyndham Access) owns 200K points worth of UDI, the trust owns those 200K and they can be used for ARP at that resort.  But if the trust only owns 200K at that resort, the first person(s) who try to ARP will be able to - up to 200K.  But once the 200K that the trust owns have been used for ARP, there aren't any other ARP points available (for that resort) to the other members of the trust.

As I just reread your comments, it occurs to me that part of the problem probably IS with your question.  Because you are thinking in terms of units or weeks.  La Bella Maison was sold strictly as points, so the question should be "How many La Bella Maison points are in Club Wyndham Access?"  Not saying you'll get an answer, but they might just be more equipped to answer it phrased that way.


----------



## ronparise (Jul 2, 2011)

I understand your argument, and I think you are right. I have exactly that same understanding 

The Wyndham Directory makes it clear regarding ARP.   Reservation availability is based in part on the amount of inventory in Club Wyndham Access at each resort location

Its just that the reservations people that make the ARP reservations for you dont seem to know the rules


----------



## learnalot (Jul 2, 2011)

ronparise said:


> I understand your argument, and I think you are right. I have exactly that same understanding
> 
> The Wyndham Directory makes it clear regarding ARP.   Reservation availability is based in part on the amount of inventory in Club Wyndham Access at each resort location
> 
> Its just that the reservations people that make the ARP reservations for you dont seem to know the rules



I understand. I was thinking that the computer might do the thinking for them-so if you call to make a reservation the computer may determine whether or not that is possible but if you are just calling with a question, they might just try answering it clueless that they are actually clueless.


----------



## ronparise (Jul 2, 2011)

learnalot said:


> I understand. I was thinking that the computer might do the thinking for them-so if you call to make a reservation the computer may determine whether or not that is possible but if you are just calling with a question, they might just try answering it clueless that they are actually clueless.



No question about that. I dont know about the computer. 

My first thought is a question...If the computer can do it, why cant I make the ARP reservation on my computer? Why do I have to call with my arp reservation request?

For my purposes I think the question about how many units are in one program or another is academic. It might make a difference if I wanted to reserve 20 or 30 units for one special date. But if that was the case Id be buying points based at the resort *and* Club Access points..If all I want is 2 or 3. I bet a call at 8am on the right day would work either way


----------



## rrlongwell (Jul 2, 2011)

Ron:

I do not know how many trusts are involved.  There are at least two.  The old Fairfield Trust, now Club Wyndham Plus and Club Wyndham Access.  There may be a third trust called the Wyndham Trust.  I could find no information about this Trust other than at a hardball sales presentation where they demanded timeshares I own be deed over to the Wyndham Trust for free and I buy new timeshares from Wyndham when this dispute was over, I was told that the salesperson and manager making this demand were fired (I doubt this) and that the agents were actually talking about the Wyndham Club Access trust taking all my deed for free and that I was to then buy new ones with Wyndham Club Access.  They denied that a seperate trust called Wyndham Trust existed and the salesperson and sales manager were not to be making demands for transfer of properties to it for free.  I did a decent google search for this critter at the time and could find no reference to a Wyndham Trust that was associated with the Windham Worldwide grouping of companies.  However there was a Wyndham Trust that did not appear to have any ties whatsoever with the Wyndham Worldwide grouping of companies.  I wrote it off at the time to two maverick employees trying to take the existing deeds for free to something called the Wyndham Trust (not impossable that is the group that I found reference to) and then get credit for new sales into Club Wyndham Access (no trade credit were being offered for the old properties).


----------



## rrlongwell (Jul 2, 2011)

ronparise said:


> ... If you have deposited a UDI deed from  resort XYZ  in the Fairshare Trust, and I own  a piece of the Club Access Trust within which a UDI deed from the same resort is deposited; Dont we both have the same  right to ARP at that resort?
> 
> UDI deeds are just that...an undivided interest...It seems to me that preventing me from using your property or you from using mine (subject to availability) would  create a division among what are un-divided interests



Your logic is excellent and under this theory, given that Club Wyndham Access has a duty to operate in the interest of their group of members, what stops them from going in and making ARP reservations at the opening bell for the best weeks/days based on their projections of what their members want up to their projections or the maxium amount of ARP reservations they can take at the desirable resorts/times.  They they would be free to cancel them prior to the last 15 days or at any time they think they are no longer needed.  Specifically, at the 60 day out time when they can then mass book the cancelled reservations at the heavily disount rate from Club Wyndham Plus.  Guest passes for the Legal Enity Club Wyndham Access to their members would probably not be needed because their members are also their owners.

P.S. found the following on the internet:

Giving Land The Wyndham Land Trust strives to conserve valuable open space in Windham County. The land trust is interested in receiving any land donation, although our emphasis is on conserving land that contains habitat for threatened plant and animal species; for example, grassland meadows, wetlands, swamps, and riperean habitat. A variety of tools are available that allow you to donate land to the land trust and receive financial benefits. Flexibility is the key. If you are interested in making a land donation, we suggest that you contact the land trust to explore your options. We recommend that you retain an attorney who will represent your interests during discussions with the land trust. 

Options for donating land include: 

Fee Simple  If you own all of the present and future rights to a property, that property is owned in fee simple. No one else has rights to the property. If you bequeath or donate fee simple title to the land trust, tax liability is determined from the full fair market value.

Fee Simple with Qualifications  You can transfer less than the fee simple title to your land by placing a conservation easements (or restriction) on the property when you donate it to the land trust. A conservation easement protects the land as you wish and produces significant federal income tax and possibly federal estate tax benefits.

Bargain Sale  In many cases, the land trust cannot afford to buy land for conservation. A bargain sale, in which you sell your land at less than its fair market value, may make your land affordable and provide the protection you are seeking. A bargain sale combines the income-producing benefit of a sale with the tax-reducing benefit of a donation. It can also avoid the expenses of a sale on the open market. The difference between the land’s appraised fair market value and its sale price is considered a charitable donation to the land trust and can be claimed by the landowner as an income tax deduction. 

Life Estate A life estate allows you to retain an interest in your property that lasts for your lifetime. For example, a life estate can be used if you want to retain the right to live on and use your property for the rest of your life. Certain duties remain with the holder of the life estate, such as maintaining the property, paying taxes and paying mortgage interest. The Wyndham Land Trust becomes the owner of your property upon your death (or that of any specified beneficiaries), and your estate receives a charitable deduction equal to the value of the property.

Conservation Easements ...


----------



## rrlongwell (Jul 2, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> There has been the rumor of ROFR at several resorts - National Harbor is one. And possibly with Club Wyndham Access  ...



Not just a rumor, I bought at Towers on the Grove and it had a provision for right of first refusal.  This is not what is being described above.  I have sat though one sales pitch that if I bought an additional timeshare, then when the Wyndham re-sale program became operational, I would have the right to give them the listing and they would attempt to sell it for 90 days.


----------



## timeos2 (Jul 2, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> Not just a rumor, I bought at Towers on the Grove and it had a provision for right of first refusal.  This is not what is being described above.  I have sat though one sales pitch that if I bought an additional timeshare, then when the Wyndham re-sale program became operational, I would have the right to give them the listing and they would attempt to sell it for 90 days.



You do realize ROFR has no value to you the seller or the buyer, correct? If it was even applied - which is unlikely they ever would - the only benefit possible is to Wyndham.  It is being used as yet another way to confuse buyers and act like a negative is a benefit.


----------



## rrlongwell (Jul 2, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> You do realize ROFR has no value to you the seller or the buyer, correct? If it was even applied - which is unlikely they ever would - the only benefit possible is to Wyndham.  It is being used as yet another way to confuse buyers and act like a negative is a benefit.



I know, it was a small point contract.  I think these are a major negative to the existing owner.  The ower finds the buyer that sets the price (currently very very low if not negative) then Wyndham decides if they want it at that price or not.


----------



## learnalot (Jul 3, 2011)

ronparise said:


> No question about that. I dont know about the computer.
> 
> My first thought is a question...If the computer can do it, why cant I make the ARP reservation on my computer? Why do I have to call with my arp reservation request?
> 
> For my purposes I think the question about how many units are in one program or another is academic. It might make a difference if I wanted to reserve 20 or 30 units for one special date. But if that was the case Id be buying points based at the resort *and* Club Access points..If all I want is 2 or 3. I bet a call at 8am on the right day would work either way



To your first question - why do you have to call in - they don't use the same reservation platform we use.  They are in a mainframe.  I've seen it a couple times.  

As to the second issue, here's what I was thinking this morning...when they told you that it's the same inventory - I think, in a way, they are right but also misguided and/or misguiding.   Because, with the probably exception of fixed week, the inventory itself (actual units) are not restricted or segregated.  The units themselves couldn't be restricted in that way because of the flexibility we have in unit size.  An example:  If I have 400K points UDI at a particular resort, I might be able to book 3 1BR deluxe units, 2 2BR deluxe units, or a 4BR Presidential (not Presidential Reserve).  Given that, they can't really segregate or restrict the actual units - only one's ability to use their points to book or not book them based on whether the request exceeds one's ARP available at that resort.  And, in the case of Club Wyndham Access, "one's" ARP available for that resort, actually means "Club's" ARP available for that resort.  Follow?


----------



## ronparise (Jul 3, 2011)

learnalot

I follow your argument, I understand the way the rues are written today. But I do see the logic for another set of rules (ie a udi deed is a udi deed and just because one is in one trust, and the other is in another, doesnt mean they have to erect a wall between them (the wall isnt there during the standard reservation window.)

Right now I suspect that at any particular resort there are less points allocated to the Club Wyndham access trust than to the other one But as time goes on I think Wyndham will be selling more and more Club access stuff. And if our assumptions are correct, foreclosures and deed backs will be dumped in the Access Trust. I see the possibility of the advantage if there is one, shifting from the one to the other 

I just spoke to a salesman at Wyndham...And yes his lips were moving, so I know he was lying about something. But what he told me was consistent with what the person at the reservations desk told me last week. And that is: a Club Wyndham Access owner  and an owner of a UDI, have exactly the same inventory available to them when making an ARP reservation. He couldnt explain and just dismissed the line in the directory (pg 311) that says ARP availability is limited by ..."the amount of inventory in ClubWyndham Access at each ClubWyndham Access resort location" . He also said that they sell out of both trusts at his resort

So as I said:  I understand what the book says, and I understand why it says it. What I want to know is, as a practical matter, how is it implemented. and the related selfish questions: What does it mean to me? and for my purposes does it matter which trust I buy into.

Next week I start calling owner relations


----------



## learnalot (Jul 3, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> Your logic is excellent and under this theory, given that Club Wyndham Access has a duty to operate in the interest of their group of members, what stops them from going in and making ARP reservations at the opening bell for the best weeks/days based on their projections of what their members want up to their projections or the maxium amount of ARP reservations they can take at the desirable resorts/times.



Longwell,

Club Wyndham Access has no more duty (or mission) "to operate in the interest of their group of members" than Club Wyndham Plus does to theirs.  Club Wyndham Access was NOT started as a service for owners.  It seems to me its primary purpose was to stop selling deeded property, which is what they had always done previously.  Instead, Club Wyndham Access is, to my understanding, essentially perpetual Right to Use.  (However, I have not seen a Club Wyndham Access deed.  Someone who has may be able to confirm or dispel this understanding).

The other thing CWA does is to allow for less owner control by stacking the board with Wyndham employees versus regular owners.

And, most importantly to them, it gives them another sales "hook".


----------



## learnalot (Jul 3, 2011)

ronparise said:


> I just spoke to a salesman at Wyndham...And yes his lips were moving, so I know he was lying about something. But what he told me was consistent with what the person at the reservations desk told me last week. And that is: a Club Wyndham Access owner  and an owner of a UDI, have exactly the same inventory available to them when making an ARP reservation. He couldnt explain and just dismissed the line in the directory (pg 311) that says ARP availability is limited by ..."the amount of inventory in ClubWyndham Access at each ClubWyndham Access resort location
> 
> Next week I start calling owner relations



Again, I say they are using semantics (or simply ignorance) to avoid answering your question.  Yes, as I already explained, it is the same actual inventory that either UDI or Club Wyndham Access bookings would be made from.  But the amount of that inventory that can be booked in either case would be limited by the number of points each has available.  

I was also thinking that you would probably need to call corporate to get an answer to your questions.  It should be a matter of record and may actually be included in the financial statements from the recent annual meeting.  I haven't checked, but thought of it since we started this discussion back and forth.


----------



## learnalot (Jul 3, 2011)

ronparise said:


> learnalot
> 
> I follow your argument, I understand the way the rues are written today. But I do see the logic for another set of rules (ie a udi deed is a udi deed and just because one is in one trust, and the other is in another, doesnt mean they have to erect a wall between them (the wall isnt there during the standard reservation window.)



Hi Ron,

I don't think I am tracking you here - either that or I'm not making myself clear.  There is a not a "wall" between the two, per se with regards to inventory, but there is a "wall" that no one can make an ARP reservation for greater than the points they have at that resort - regardless of how many total points they have.  They can't just "change the rules" for all the inventory because inventory that does not belong to Club Wyndham Access belongs to owners who have a deeded ARP at a particular resort(s).  There are no such restrictions during the standard reservation window and never have been.  Points are points, right?  But the only time points are not just points is during ARP.

Follow me?


----------



## ronparise (Jul 3, 2011)

Learns a lot 

Yes I do understand Always have and always will. We are saying the same thing by different names..Im using the word inventory, (as does the Wyndham directory), you are using the word "points"

Ill rephrase to use points too.... and Ill use a resort that I am somewhat familiar with...La Belle Maison

There are about 140 units at La Belle Maison, most are 1 bedrooms and the points value is 189000. So for the purpose of this discussion, lets round up and assume that there are 150X200000 points that can be spent on any one week there or 30 million points. 

If 10million of these points represent deeds held by  Club Access than Club access owners have the opportunity to ARP up to 10000000 points at La Belle Maison. in any one week, Once spent, there is no more availability for them. even if there are vacant units.  The other side of the coin of course is that once the  the "regular" owners spend their 20000000 points their ability to ARP is cut off for that week.

The question I want answered is how many points, symbolic of La Belle Maison deeds, are held by the Club Wyndham Access, and how many by "regular" owners

Because points are symbolic of real property ownership, this is the same question I have been asking that you take issue with, and that is: How much inventory at La Belle Maison is held by Club Wyndham Access

Im sure you are right that the units are not flagged CWA for the reservation staff to see, and probably the computer will prevent a reservation being made when the 10million points in my example are spent even if there are units available to regular owners

Im still left without answer to my real question which is: If I own 2,000,000 club access points and I call reservations at 8 am exactly 13 months ahead of Feb 8, 2013,  can I reserve 10 units for that week?...and...how much better are my chances if I owned regular points there. Should I buy into Club Access, or should I hold out for a regular deeded ownership...or perhaps own both...which is probably the way I will go, but I would like my points to match the percentages held by deeded owners and Access owners


Where you and I disagree is that I think that there is no reason why Wyndham couldnt make ARP work the same way as standard reservations.


----------



## rrlongwell (Jul 3, 2011)

ronparise said:


> ... The question I want answered is how many points, symbolic of La Belle Maison deeds, are held by the Club Wyndham Access, and how many by "regular" owners
> 
> Because points are symbolic of real property ownership, this is the same question I have been asking that you take issue with, and that is: How much inventory at La Belle Maison is held by Club Wyndham Access
> 
> Im sure you are right that the units are not flagged CWA for the reservation staff to see, and probably the computer will prevent a reservation being made when the 10million points in my example are spent even if there are units available to regular owners ... I would like my points to match the percentages held by deeded owners and Access owners ...



Just called reservations on the New Orleans Resort that Wyndham operates on this matter.  They say the resorts designate specific units for Club Wyndham Access Members that roughly coralates to the number of deeds owned by Club Wyndham Access.  Therefore, there is a dedicated Club Wyndham Access inventory and an all other verision (one or more designated availablity pools).  One way to possably get an answer for the resort in question is to call the resort.  If they operate like Patriot's Place, Units are divided between Club Wynham plus and Club Wyndham Access.  She answered a similar question for me by looking it up at the reservations desk.  I did not ask how many units to each program and she did not volunteer it.  Wyndham reservations did indicate that during the regular scheduling period and the VIP discount period the reservation pools were the same.  Under this rule, the distinct advantage goes to whichever trust is larger and which one gets their reservations in first.  The club sizes can and presumably do change over time.


----------



## rrlongwell (Jul 3, 2011)

learnalot said:


> Longwell,
> 
> Club Wyndham Access has no more duty (or mission) "to operate in the interest of their group of members" than Club Wyndham Plus does to theirs.  Club Wyndham Access was NOT started as a service for owners.  It seems to me its primary purpose was to stop selling deeded property, which is what they had always done previously.  Instead, Club Wyndham Access is, to my understanding, essentially perpetual Right to Use.  (However, I have not seen a Club Wyndham Access deed.  Someone who has may be able to confirm or dispel this understanding).
> 
> ...



Club Wyndham Plus duties would be towards their members, including Club Wyndham Access (presumably the 2nd biggest stakeholder to only Wyndham itself).  On the other hand, Club Wyndham Access responsibilities would be only to the Club Wyndham Access Members.  It is not a two way street.  If what you say is true (and I do not doubt it).  Then the pecking order for interests would be Wyndham, followed by Club Wyndham Access, then weeks owners, UDI owers, and Wyndham Club Plus owners.


----------



## learnalot (Jul 3, 2011)

ronparise said:


> If 10million of these points represent deeds held by  Club Access than *Club access owners have the opportunity to ARP up to 10000000 points at La Belle Maison in any one week,* Once spent, there is no more availability for them. even if there are vacant units.  The other side of the coin of course is that once the  the "regular" owners spend their 20000000 points their ability to ARP is cut off for that week.
> 
> 
> Where you and I disagree is that I think that there is no reason why Wyndham couldnt make ARP work the same way as standard reservations.



Hi Ron,

The parts I quoted are the only two things you wrote that I would speak to or am confused by.

I bolded the part of the first paragraph that I think might be the issue because ARP is not (except for fixed weeks) tied to a particular week, but is tied to a particular use year.  There might be enough La Bella Maison points in CWA to be able to reserve your 10 units as a CWA member during ARP.  And certainly, anyone with a regular UDI deed (Club Wyndham Plus) at La Bella Maison has the ARP privileges (provided they own enough points there) to try and reserve the same Mardi Gras weeks.  There are a limited number of units available for any particular week, so, if everyone who had the opportunity to ARP tries to reserve the same week at the same resort right at the beginning of the 13 month window, obviously not everyone will be successful in getting their reservation.  The difference I see is here:  Someone with a Bella Maison UDI deed, while they could conceivably be unsuccessful in getting an ARP reservation for Mardi Gras, would still have the ability to ARP at La Bella Maison for later in the year, probably with the ability to choose another desirable week.  But if all the Club Wyndham Access ARP available at La Bella Maison for a given use year has been used, no one from Club Wyndham Access will be able to get another ARP reservation there for later in the year either.

Point two:  I really don't understand what you're getting at asking why they can't make ARP reservations work like standard reservations.  Do you mean why can't you book them online?  If that's what you mean, I agree with you.  If you mean why can't points just be points, it's because they are contractually committed to have restricted access for a certain period of time, which they call ARP.

p.s. - I started using "points" vs. "inventory" because, as I said, to me, inventory means actual units.  So when you call Wyndham and ask them whether the CWA and the Club Wyndham Plus inventory are segregated during ARP, the answer may be no.  But it still doesn't answer your question.  Nor can your question actually be answered when you simply ask if you would be able to reserve 10 units at 8am 13 months out.  Unit size matters here.  Because there might be enough to reserve 10 1 bedroom units, but only 2 4-bedroom units and so on.  You get the idea.  Do the math for what you want and then your question will be "Are there X points in club Wyndham Access (enough to reserve 10 2-bedroom units - or whatever size you wish to reserve) that have ARP at La Bella Maison?"


----------



## rrlongwell (Jul 3, 2011)

La Belle Maison did not disclose to me the inventory allotments between Club Wyndham Access Club Wyndham Plus.  I was thinking about what the Wyndham reservations person said about Resorts doing the designations for Club Wyndham Access.  The Property Owners Assocation is probably ultimately reasonable for the designation of units.  The problem with the discussion is that we assumed there is a central management of the ARP system.  This may not be the case.  Each resort may very well, through their management company, may make the inventory desigations for the ARP program to Access, converted weeks,  otherwise, or if at all.  It is my understanding the Management Companies make the actual room assignments for bookings made on line or through the call in center.


----------



## BellaWyn (Jul 3, 2011)

ronparise said:


> The question I want answered is how many points, symbolic of La Belle Maison deeds, are held by the Club Wyndham Access, and how many by "regular" owners.



Is this a question that can actually be answered?  Have they fully populated the CWA ownerships at this location (or any others for that matter)?  Theoretically, since it's a dynamic process of obtaining deeds from EXISTING UDI owners and then putting them in the CWA Trust the answer you are looking for would (possibly) be a moving target and hence, not answerable.



learnalot said:


> The difference I see is here:  Someone with a Bella Maison UDI deed, while they could conceivably be unsuccessful in getting an ARP reservation for Mardi Gras, would still have the ability to ARP at La Bella Maison for later in the year, probably with the ability to choose another desirable week.  But if all the Club Wyndham Access ARP available at La Bella Maison for a given use year has been used, no one from Club Wyndham Access will be able to get another ARP reservation there for later in the year either.


Have to agree with Pam on this one Ron.  However, as existing UDI deeded ownership gets handed of to CWA, over time, the scale may tip in favor of the CWA owner for ARP.  Don't see that happening in the near future as the sales pitch for CWA seems to focus on ARP, which doesn't really draw people in quickly.  It's not enough of a "carrot" to pull people in to bite on a developer sale.




learnalot said:


> Point two:  I really don't understand what you're getting at asking why they can't make ARP reservations work like standard reservations.  Do you mean why can't you book them online?  If that's what you mean, I agree with you.


That's a programming issue and probably one that is currently not worth investing resources since the number of owners desiring to ARP is minimal compared to making the reservation system functional during the standard booking window.  Probably also slows down mega-renters since, depending on how they obtain the rental points, would theoretically involve multiple owners in the phone call.  Still doable but complicated. 



learnalot said:


> So when you call Wyndham and ask them whether the CWA and the Club Wyndham Plus inventory are segregated during ARP, the answer may be no.  But it still doesn't answer your question.  Nor can your question actually be answered when you simply ask if you would be able to reserve 10 units at 8am 13 months out.


Define "segregated" as it's understood by Wyndham vs by you.  As you stated before, the ARP availability for CWA is going to be based on the total UDI points that exist at a given location in the CWA Trust.  Same with the UDI-Deeded points.  If the CWA points are gone, they are gone and a CWA owner won't be able to get ARP.  If that's considered a type of segregation, perhaps.  Don't see it as a segregation as much as a limitation of availability during whatever period the desired ARP period.  You could ask the SAME question of a UDI-deeded ownership related to ARP.  At 13month can any owner, with enough points in a single UDI contract call and ARP enough units to consume those points for any given period?  

Example:  New Year's in Las Vegas.  If I had 10MM UDI-deeded points in Grand Desert, could I book a bajillion units at that location for New Year's?  Enough to consume that many points?   

Another reason why WYN doesn't want to put the ARP process online possibly?


----------



## rrlongwell (Jul 3, 2011)

> ... Define "segregated" as it's understood by Wyndham vs by you.  As you stated before, the ARP availability for CWA is going to be based on the total UDI points that exist at a given location in the CWA Trust.  Same with the UDI-Deeded points.  If the CWA points are gone, they are gone and a CWA owner won't be able to get ARP.  If that's considered a type of segregation, perhaps.  Don't see it as a segregation as much as a limitation of availability during whatever period the desired ARP period.  You could ask the SAME question of a UDI-deeded ownership related to ARP.  At 13month can any owner, with enough points in a single UDI contract call and ARP enough units to consume those points for any given period?  ...



According to Wyndham Reservations, the resort in question and possably others designate specific units to the Club Wyndham Access program for ARP purposes that roughly coorelate to the number of deeds they own.  Since it a specific unit designation at the resort in question, presumably, Club Wyndham Access owners trying to use ARP at that facility run out of availabily by room type when the designated Club Wyndham Access units for that size and type are used by Club Wyndham Access members.

Just a after thought, for the resort in question, if Wyndham Reservations is right, if they are designating specific units during the ARP period for Club Wyndham Access members, then the people with VIP rights in Club Wyndham Plus would loss their right to request a vacant room during the ARP period because the Club Wyndham Access dedicated rooms would not be in the Club Wyndham Plus VIP availablity inventory in the first place.  If this is the case, then the undivided interest theory mentioned in the above threads would be a deed only picture.  The management of actual designated units would probably go to the Club Wyndham Access program for ARP purposes due to the fact that apparently there are no similar designations be made for the Club Wyndham Plus people.


----------



## rrlongwell (Jul 12, 2011)

Moved to top of the list in response to a recent post.


----------

