# Paying SVO to take our StarPoints off our hands?!?



## nodge (Aug 9, 2007)

Hi Gang,

Well despite me checking every “opt-out” box possible when buying my SVO property, emailing SVO several times requesting to “opt-out” of its promotions, and mailing back every “opt-out” form ever sent to me by SVO, I still keep getting “exciting opportunities” from SVO like this one below, which upon further inquiry appears to be a new low, even for our friends at SVO:

Here’s the offer from SVO:

_Starwood Vacation Ownership <starwoodvacationownership@svo.starwoodvo.com> 8/7/2007 3:47 AM >>>

You can now redeem Starwood Preferred Guest® Starpoints® for a 
credit towards the purchase of Signature Events Cruises. 
__________________________________________________________________________

Dear [nodge]

Signature EscapesSM, brought to you by Starwood Vacation NetworkSM, is pleased to present 
you with two remarkable seven-night cruises to Hawai‘i and the Caribbean, plus unique 
opportunities to share memories with fellow Owners. 

The Seven-night Eastern Caribbean Cruise aboard Royal Caribbean’s Freedom of the Seas departs 
from Miami on October 21, 2007 with ports of call in Puerto Rico, St. Thomas and St. Maarten. 
Prices start at $1,149 per person (double occupancy) for a balcony cabin, or $149 per person 
with the redemption of 82,000 Starwood Preferred Guest® Starpoints®. Act quickly, as this group 
rate is only available until August 15, 2007.

On January 19, 2008, you can sail to the beautiful islands of Hawai‘i aboard Norwegian Cruise 
Line’s Pride of America. This Seven-night Hawaiian Cruise sails from Honolulu and takes you on 
a tour of Hawaii’s islands with stops in Oahu, Hilo, Maui, Kailua-Kona and Kauai for just $1,749 
per person (double occupancy) for a balcony cabin, or $249 per person when you redeem 122,000 Starpoints.

Prices include shipboard accommodations, exclusive onboard experiences just for Owners, entertainment 
and daily activities, onboard meals and some beverages, shipboard gratuities, port charges and more. 
These stimulating seven-night cruises are available at remarkable rates when you redeem any amount 
of Starpoints in the following increments: 

9,500 Starpoints    $100
22,000 Starpoints   $250
42,000 Starpoints   $500
82,000 Starpoints   $1,000
122,000 Starpoints  $1,500

For complete details including terms and conditions for redeeming Starpoints, login in to 
www.mystarcentral.com/signatureevents.

Sincerely,
Starwood Vacation Network_


Analysis of SVO’s Offer:

Using a little computer thing that I like to call “Google” and applying to the search results a little thing that I like to call  “math,” you will quickly see that if you give SVO certain combinations of StarPoints under this offer, you will actually be paying SVO to take those StarPoints off your hands.  Here are the details.

The real retail price for the Hawaiian cruise ocean view stateroom with private balcony (and all the bells and whistles like gratuities, on-board activities, meals and some beverages, etc.) is $1,310.87 (plus taxes/fees of $82.63)/person. (see attached).   SVO claims that this trip costs $1,749/person (and I'm just guessing that doesn't include "taxes/fees").  SVO's stated price is really $438.13 more per person than if you would book this deal through a different on-line broker.

So . . . if you pay cash for this deal through SVO you will be paying at least $860 too much.  

If you pay for a portion of this trip with your StarPoints, you are essentially paying SVO to take those StarPoints off your hands.  For example, if under this deal you give SVO 44,000 StarPoints to get a $250/each “discount” in the SVO price.  You are still paying $360 more than if you had just booked the trip elsewhere.  Accordingly, you’d be paying SVO $360 to take your 44,000 StarPoints.

If anyone is interested in this deal, I’d be happy to take your StarPoints off your hands for free.

-nodge


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## tomandrobin (Aug 9, 2007)

lol...poor Nodge! Somehow we seem to miss out on all those deals!


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 9, 2007)

You can also buy SPs from SPG for $0.035 per SP.
https://starwood.mpmvp.com/buy_form.asp

For a 5* Hotel at 15000 SPs per nite - this is $525 per nite.

I wonder if they would be willing to pay $0.035 per SP? lol

This is a variation of a question I asked a while back - how much are SPs worth? - and what is the best return on value for using SPs?  Got lots of interesting responses - if i recall correctly - the approx. value was around $0.015/SP


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## nodge (Aug 9, 2007)

DavidnRobin said:


> This is a variation of a question I asked a while back - how much are SPs worth?



If you use StarPoints as described above for SVO's latest cruise deal they are worth - (that's right NEGATIVE) $0.008/each.  We better unload 'em before we all end of owing SVO money just for storing 'em for us.

-nodge


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## CaliDave (Aug 9, 2007)

If anyone has any extra Starpoints. I will give you a better deal than Starwood. Please give me your points and I will only charge you $0.006/each.


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## stevens397 (Aug 9, 2007)

I agree that the deal was off the wall - I quickly deleted it.  I guess I wasn't as surprised as nodge - they have so many Starpoints out there they will do anything to get us to use them for nothing.

On the other hand, I reserved a suite in the Westin Puerto Vallarta during Christmas this year at 14,000 points per night (after the devaluation, it's now 20,000 per night for the suite).  Now I had the points, but if I didn't it would have cost $490 per night for a suite that goes for WELL over $1,100.

There are definitely deals to be had.  Some people want the cheapest room possible; others want luxury at the best price.  For the latter, there are often great deals to be had, and if you don't have the points, it can sometimes be very worthwhile to buy them.


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## RLG (Aug 10, 2007)

DavidnRobin said:


> You can also buy SPs from SPG for $0.035 per SP.
> ...
> how much are SPs worth? - ...Got lots of interesting responses - if i recall correctly - the approx. value was around $0.015/SP



"What is a reward point worth?" is a question that's always good to stir up debate.  Do a search over on Flyertalk and you'll find quite a few threads on the subject.

IMHO, the way arrive at a valuation range for any reward program is to answer two questions:
a) at what price would I pay cash out of pocket now to buy more points?
b) at what price would I sell my existing points for cash?

Using that methodology, I reach two conclusions:

a) your 1.5 cent valuation is too low.  I'm willing to buy points from anyone who wants to sell them at that price.
b) starwood's 3.5 cent valuation is too high.  I'm willing to sell my points to anyone who wants them for less.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 10, 2007)

RLG said:


> "What is a reward point worth?" is a question that's always good to stir up debate.  Do a search over on Flyertalk and you'll find quite a few threads on the subject.
> 
> IMHO, the way arrive at a valuation range for any reward program is to answer two questions:
> a) at what price would I pay cash out of pocket now to buy more points?
> ...



The *approximate value* of $0.015/SP was based on a concensus from looking at FT website - plus my own rough calculations for what is called a 5* resort by SPG, AND my own perception of what I paid for a SPs as incentives in buying a SVO VOI accounting for the value loss of buying from SVO.

At 14000 SPs per nite (notice how it is slowly creeping up?) for a 5* hotel at $0.015 is $210 per nite.  While cheaper that the advertised rate from these Hotels - it is a good approximation of what a 'bargain' (savvy traveler) rate is for these hotels - using a rough average depending on where the location is (some worse - some better) and the quality of the hotel.

We are sitting on about 300K SPs - that I roughly put at costing us ~$5000 - that comes out to about 16-17 cents per SP.


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## pointsjunkie (Aug 10, 2007)

when i figure the sp rate when i go on my many free stays it averages to .045 per starpoint. stay in manhattan at $595 per night and use 12000 starpoints or so many other hotels and that is the normal value. so for the 300000 starpoints it is worth close to $10000-$12000. that's why i will continue use the starpoint exchange for some of my timeshares. $595 per night for 5 nights comes to $2975 which much more than my most expensive MF"S and i use it at some fabulous resorts. i definitely get value for my starpoints.


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## saluki (Aug 11, 2007)

DavidnRobin said:


> We are sitting on about 300K SPs - that I roughly put at costing us ~$5000 - that comes out to about 16-17 cents per SP.



David-

I think you missed a decimal point in there.

If 300,000 Starpoints cost you $5000, it comes out to roughly 1.6 cents per SP  - a much better deal!

As a reference, SPG sells 100,000 Starpoints for $3500 (3.5 cents each). So 300,000 Starpoints would cost $10,500. You got your 300,000 for about half that price.


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## RLG (Aug 11, 2007)

DavidnRobin said:


> The *approximate value* of $0.015/SP was based on a concensus from looking at FT website - plus my own rough calculations for what is called a 5* resort by SPG, AND my own perception of what I paid for a SPs as incentives in buying a SVO VOI accounting for the value loss of buying from SVO.



As I said earlier, if you think the points are only worth 1.5 cents each, how many would you like to sell me at that price?


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## MON2REY (Aug 11, 2007)

We just returned last week from a seven night stay at the Westin Maui.  We had two rooms that would have cost $660  (rack rate) per night.  174,000 starpoints got us the 2 rooms for the week (including the 5 for 4 free night).  At that rate it works out to be $.053 per point (or $.0455 if you exclude the free nights).  Since we couldn't use our WKORV-N until 2008, we exercised our option to pay the 2007 MF of ~$1600 and got 80,000 starpoints ($.02 per point).


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## formerhater (Aug 11, 2007)

To me, this "deal" is even worse than Nodge's math indicates.  What they don't tell you is that NCL America can barely give these cruises away.  I can't tell you how many e-mails I've received in the last year offering Pride of America or Pride of Aloha sailings for considerably less.  On several occasions (including peak summer months), NCL was offering balcony cabins INCLUDING AIRFARE for about $1,100pp.  NCL recently announced Pride of Hawaii will "temporarily" be removed from the Hawaiian market and reflagged to sail Europe because they over saturated the Hawaiian cruise market and can't fill their cabins.  I assure you it will hardly be temporary as that ship will never sail as Pride of Hawaii again.  At any rate, bad deal all around...


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## Fredm (Aug 12, 2007)

formerhater said:


> To me, this "deal" is even worse than Nodge's math indicates.  What they don't tell you is that NCL America can barely give these cruises away.  I can't tell you how many e-mails I've received in the last year offering Pride of America or Pride of Aloha sailings for considerably less.  On several occasions (including peak summer months), NCL was offering balcony cabins INCLUDING AIRFARE for about $1,100pp.  NCL recently announced Pride of Hawaii will "temporarily" be removed from the Hawaiian market and reflagged to sail Europe because they over saturated the Hawaiian cruise market and can't fill their cabins.  I assure you it will hardly be temporary as that ship will never sail as Pride of Hawaii again.  At any rate, bad deal all around...



Yep! I was offered the same deal on Pride of America for a balcony cabin. including air from LA. For an extra $30 pp they threw in rt air from Palm Springs. Includes all taxes and port charges.


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## Fredm (Aug 12, 2007)

For me, the acid test of point value is their cost avoidance potential. Not rack, or any other rate, of the room they would purchase. They are worth exactly what I would have actually paid cash for in their absence. No more, no less. If I would not have been willing to pay cash, they "saved" me zero. If I personally would have spent $250 night, they are worth $250 in avoided cost. Each of us is different when using this measure. Therefore, their worth is variable depending on the user.
Trying to establish a per point value universally is a waste of time, IMO.

BTW, I bought that ride on Pride of America. Paid cash. Had I used Points it would have cost me more out of pocket, so didn't. In this respect, I agree with Nodge,they have a negative value *to me* if expended for this purpose.

The other thing is that it depends on the source of the points accumulated. Many here acquire the bulk of points at a very real and quantifiable cost, because their source is vacation ownership related. 
Not so if accumulated the old fashioned way; as a byproduct of spending money as one would otherwise do anyway; dropping a buck in a Starwood hotel, or charging to an Amex. These points 
are a "free" byproduct of the transaction. Not so when the timeshare is involved in the conversion.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 12, 2007)

saluki said:


> David-
> 
> I think you missed a decimal point in there.
> 
> ...




Sorry - yes you are correct - my old eyes and bad brain...


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 12, 2007)

Fredm said:


> For me, the acid test of point value is their cost avoidance potential. Not rack, or any other rate, of the room they would purchase. They are worth exactly what I would have actually paid cash for in their absence. No more, no less. If I would not have been willing to pay cash, they "saved" me zero. If I personally would have spent $250 night, they are worth $250 in avoided cost. Each of us is different when using this measure. Therefore, their worth is variable depending on the user.
> Trying to establish a per point value universally is a waste of time, IMO.
> 
> BTW, I bought that ride on Pride of America. Paid cash. Had I used Points it would have cost me more out of pocket, so didn't. In this respect, I agree with Nodge,they have a negative value *to me* if expended for this purpose.
> ...



I agree, but 'waste of time'?  - no - sorry - not waste of time - I was never asking an exact value, as you say - too many factors - but the SVO has put an exact value in their asking price.

Use on our part (both in purchase and using) is open and has a ceiling.  The SPs we pick up on our AMEX SPG card are essentially free since we would making purchases anyway (glad Cosctco takes AMEX).  The SPs that we picked up in our purchase is is certainly more nebulous.  I put these at a certain price (sans decimal place...) for our value (discount the future loss of WPORV) - no one else.  These is our value -and it is certainly an approximation.

What I am more interesed is the getting the most value for our usage - we wanted to wait to use them for our Europe vacation in 09, but the are getting devalued pretty rapidly.


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## pointsjunkie (Aug 12, 2007)

toward the end of the year starwood will probably offer the 2007 starpoint rates to use in 2008-2009, they did that last year and i booked a st. regis at an 12000 statpoints where it is now 25000. so if they offer it and you know your dates and when and where you want to go place then book it. i booked 4 trips last year not knowing of course which hotels would change catagories and 4 out of 4 changed so i di well with my trips.


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## Fredm (Aug 12, 2007)

DavidnRobin said:


> I agree, but 'waste of time'?  - no - sorry - not waste of time - I was never asking an exact value, as you say - too many factors - but the SVO has put an exact value in their asking price.
> 
> Use on our part (both in purchase and using) is open and has a ceiling.  The SPs we pick up on our AMEX SPG card are essentially free since we would making purchases anyway (glad Cosctco takes AMEX).  The SPs that we picked up in our purchase is is certainly more nebulous.  I put these at a certain price (sans decimal place...) for our value (discount the future loss of WPORV) - no one else.  These is our value -and it is certainly an approximation.
> 
> What I am more interesed is the getting the most value for our usage - we wanted to wait to use them for our Europe vacation in 09, but the are getting devalued pretty rapidly.



David and Robin.

I said: "Trying to establish a per point value *universally* is a waste of time, IMO."
I also said: "They are worth exactly what I would have actually paid cash for in their absence. No more, no less. "

and... "Each of us is different when using this measure. Therefore, their worth is variable depending on the user."

The above relates to value.

Cost for the points is another matter.

I said: "The other thing is that it depends on the source of the points accumulated. Many here acquire the bulk of points at a very real and quantifiable cost, because their source is vacation ownership related.
Not so if accumulated the old fashioned way; as a byproduct of spending money as one would otherwise do anyway; dropping a buck in a Starwood hotel, or charging to an Amex. These points are a "free" byproduct of the transaction. Not so when the timeshare is involved in the conversion."

Since we seem to agree, why so touchy?


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## myip (Aug 12, 2007)

Well, 40,000 staroption worth $2200 to me.  I didn't have to pay 2 airline tickets in the last minute booking ($1100 for each ticket).   I have already converted it AA.  I flew them to CA within 2 days.  It is  nice option to use it for last minute spurs.   It worked out well.   However, if I have to pay, I would not fly them until I get a reasonable fare like $500.00 each. So 40,000 staroption can worth between $1000 - $2200 to me.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 12, 2007)

sorry - wasn't meant to sound touchy - just responding w/o word-smithing.


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## tomandrobin (Aug 13, 2007)

We used 40,000 points last christmas at the Swan Hotel at Disney World for a 5 night/6 day trip over the week of New Years Eve. I think the cost to book online was around $2500. We did this less then two months out! 

Great Hotel and on Disney property, we thought it was a great deal for the time of year and location and convience of being on Disney Property.


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