# Maui county Mayor proposes property tax increase for timeshares



## Syed

Mayor Alan Arakawa proposed an increase in property tax rate for timeshares from $14.00/1000 to $19.60/1000. I intend to coordinate efforts with local timeshare developers/HOA/management companies and businesses that will be affected by this increase and contact county council members and the Mayor's office.
Since this my first attempt at trying to do something like this, your suggestions on how to approach it is welcome.


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## work2travel

How about presenting the mayor with signed timeshare owner petition letters (form letters) against the proposed tax increase outlining impacts to Maui's economy?  Since timeshare owners don't vote locally, a key issue to address with the Maui politicians would be impacts of their action to their constituents that would vote at the next election...


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## blondietink

WOW!  That's more per thousand than I pay for my house in county taxes.  When you consider that people spend thousands of dollars to buy a week or two at a timeshare, this hike in property taxes really puts money in the pockets of Maui.  So, if somebody bought their timeshare off Ebay for pennies on the dollar, how would the taxes be based?   On the purchase price or what Maui believes it to be worth? What is the rate per thousand that a regular homeowner pays on Maui?  And on top of that, don't you have to pay occupany tax also when you stay at a timeshare in Hawaii?


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## tomandrobin

Its so easy to tax the transient owners. 

Locals will support the tax, since most of the timeshare owners are non-Maui residents. 

I hope the tax gets squashed. If not, other counties/states who are short of cash will "copy" Maui's successful tax policy.


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## rickandcindy23

We only own one week on Maui.  Maui officials were talking about a huge increase in the TAT.  I don't know which would be worse for us, specifically, but I do know Maui needs money, and visitors are going to pay.  We use the roads and the beaches, so we should pay our part.  

I just don't understand targeting timeshare owners for both TAT and property taxes.  Make up your minds.  Are we owners or visitors?  Is this in addition to a still-on-the-table TAT increase?  Is this instead?


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## Fredm

OH no. Here we go again! 

Syed, I applaud your activism. I really do. I am an activist myself. Please accept my comments as encouragement for a successful campaign. 

You asked for suggestions as to an approach, so here goes. Just my opinion.

Having been an elected official (City Council Member, Chair of various regional agencies, etc), I can tell you the politics of this may not be as straightforward or obvious as you assume. 

My view of political fights is to define the fight. One that a focused effort might win.  

Last time, individual resort HOA's filed appeals with Maui County. ARDA tentatively supported the appeals by way of comment only.
Note that the basis of the tax (tax rate) was never argued. Just appeals of the assessed valuations. My take on why follows.

The real problem from a political perspective are the various constituencies. 
It is no wonder that Maui finds taxing non-voters the path of least resistance. 

IMO, a legal challenge in the courts (discrimination, nexus, etc.) of the tax rate is the only way to effectively address the matter once and for all ( Assessed valuations can be appealed based on market data).  The practical problem is finding a group willing to fund, and be the front for, the challenge.

Irrespective of how opposition is organized, what you may think of as natural constituents, may not be at all. 

- Local business owners/retailers will be divided, because the alternative may be sales or business tax increase. So, scratch the Chamber of Commerce. They _may _lend a supporting word, but not knuckles in a fight. 

- ARDA has been tentative in the past. Although the most likely constituent for such an effort, local resort developers also operate hotels whose ongoing business will be negatively impacted if the tax burden is spread to hotel tax rates/assessments. They also walk a fine line with community public opinion, which will be in favor of the timeshare tax increase. Resort owners/developers may also have ongoing fish to fry with the County. They won't want to alienate County Council votes.
So, a tentative posture is understandable. A letter of opposition, a formal statement, but nothing more.

- Maui residents, school activists, park and open space advocates, or any vested interest that relies on County program funding, will support the tax (you have a better feel for this than I do). So, any organized effort to oppose the tax will earn the bad will of the general public. Which is why the County Council feels free to lay the tax on those who do not vote in the jurisdiction, and why other organized groups may be reluctant to oppose it. 

All of which goes to say why the tax appeals last time around were filed by individual resort HOA's, and only appealed the assessed valuations.

Funding for, and advocacy of, a legal challenge to the basis of the tax rate has to come from a group not influenced by any of the above political/economic considerations. IMO, that leaves the timeshare owners themselves. They may not vote in County elections, but can have their grievances heard in court. If successful, it will fundamentally alter property tax distribution on Maui. It will whack the local politicians where it hurts, and cause taxes to local businesses, and other property classes to increase. 

Now, the real fun starts. To get timeshare owners to agree to an assessment to fund a court fight. Or, a bank funded  by individual owner contributions. 
This is a organization and funding effort unto itself. But, one that can be boot-strapped with the dedicated effort of, and seed money from, a small group of individuals (or by anonymous donations from otherwise vested interests that cannot show themselves). In other words, a political action committee whose purpose is to fund a legal battle. 
As a practical matter, it will require a staff stringer to keep it together.
It can also be discouraging. It is not obvious to me that timeshare owners will want to fund it, or lend their time to volunteer. Talk and righteous indignation are cheap. 

Another approach is to find a class action attorney. Tens of millions are at issue.

Of course, this all supposes that a credible legal case can be made. I am not an attorney. However I cannot find the nexus in the timeshare tax rate, and have read the discriminatory and prejudicial language of Maui County Council Members during their open session discussions of the matter.

Signing petitions, letters to the editors, emails to elected officials, etc, won't get it done IMO. At the end of the day, a newspaper editor may take a moral position in opposition to the tax. The issue advocates will gain their 15 minutes of fame (or notoriety), and a certain standing among the true believers. But, but that's about it. 

Anyway, my 2 cents. Offered as food for thought. Good luck!


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## jarta

"Now, the real fun starts. To get timeshare owners to agree to an assessment to fund a court fight. Or, a bank funded by individual owner contributions."

The tax obviously affects the operation of the resort.  The boards of the timeshare resorts are empowered to spend money on the operations of the resort in their best judgment, i.e., to fight this tax.  Moreover, if they vote to spend money to fight the tax, the costs will be spread among the various owners and will increase the assessments.

Owners will squawk.  However, no vote of the owners should be necessary to spend money this way - unless there is no money for it in the budget.  No money in the budget would force a special assessment vote.  The cost per owner will be minimal if all the timeshare resorts pool their efforts or fund an effort spearheaded by ARDA.  Just my opinion.   ...   eom


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## Syed

Fredm,Thanks so much for your insight. I agree local businesses are likely to support the tax increase or stand by on the sidelines. I am going to try to meet with managers from the HOA management companies this week.


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## Syed

rickandcindy23 said:


> We only own one week on Maui.  Maui officials were talking about a huge increase in the TAT.  I don't know which would be worse for us, specifically, but I do know Maui needs money, and visitors are going to pay.  We use the roads and the beaches, so we should pay our part.
> 
> I just don't understand targeting timeshare owners for both TAT and property taxes.  Make up your minds.  Are we owners or visitors?  Is this in addition to a still-on-the-table TAT increase?  Is this instead?



This is in addition to the TAT. The TAT is at the Statel level. Property tax decisions are made by the County


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## Syed

work2travel said:


> How about presenting the mayor with signed timeshare owner petition letters (form letters) against the proposed tax increase outlining impacts to Maui's economy?  Since timeshare owners don't vote locally, a key issue to address with the Maui politicians would be impacts of their action to their constituents that would vote at the next election...



 This might help! How do we start the petition letters campaign?


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## timeos2

Between these types of unfair tax assessments, the uncertainty of travel costs (and no options) to Hawaii as well as the depressed rental market  it really makes zero sense to buy / own there.  It is a very risky place right now and dramatically dropping resale values reflect the uncertainty.  Best to stay away from purchase and look to rental / trade if you want to visit.  Similar caveats apply to all locations that require air fare to visit.  That means some really great resorts/areas are not good candidates for ownership given the current state of timeshares and the economy.  They can be great values as rentals and are far more available than in past years. Getting reasonable air fare will be the big problem even to rent.


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## Syed

rickandcindy23 said:


> We only own one week on Maui.  Maui officials were talking about a huge increase in the TAT.  I don't know which would be worse for us, specifically, but I do know Maui needs money, and visitors are going to pay.  We use the roads and the beaches, so we should pay our part.
> 
> I just don't understand targeting timeshare owners for both TAT and property taxes.  Make up your minds.  Are we owners or visitors?  Is this in addition to a still-on-the-table TAT increase?  Is this instead?



Good question...Are the timeshare owners property owners or hotel guests? Seems like we are both in Maui. Interesting legal question!


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## Fredm

jarta said:


> "Now, the real fun starts. To get timeshare owners to agree to an assessment to fund a court fight. Or, a bank funded by individual owner contributions."
> 
> The tax obviously affects the operation of the resort.  The boards of the timeshare resorts are empowered to spend money on the operations of the resort in their best judgment, i.e., to fight this tax.  Moreover, if they vote to spend money to fight the tax, the costs will be spread among the various owners and will increase the assessments.
> 
> Owners will squawk.  However, no vote of the owners should be necessary to spend money this way - unless there is no money for it in the budget.  No money in the budget would force a special assessment vote.  The cost per owner will be minimal if all the timeshare resorts pool their efforts or fund an effort spearheaded by ARDA.  Just my opinion.   ...   eom



I agree that this is the most efficient approach. 

I have also stated my opinion why the HOA's just appealed the assessed values last time out. 
That effort bore fruit. It reduced assessed property values.

They did not challenge the legal basis for the tax rate. Nor, was ARDA actively involved.  I have also given my opinion as to why on both counts.

So, now Maui County is attempting to recapture the revenue lost, and then some, by increasing the tax rate yet again.
I hope I am wrong. But, the politics will get in the way of an ARDA sponsored effort to challenge it. 

I wholeheartedly agree that the HOA's are the most logical/efficient focal point of funding a campaign. But, a legal challenge to the basis of the tax rate is going to be required, IMO.


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## timeos2

Fredm said:


> I wholeheartedly agree that the HOA's are the most logical/efficient focal point of funding a campaign. But, a legal challenge to the basis of the tax rate is going to be required, IMO.



Remember that in tax court the County/tax agency is presumed to be correct in their valuation/opinion hile it is up to the owner to prove them wrong. It is a very tough hill to climb.  And can quickly get very costly. the taxing agencies know it all too well and work the system to their benefit.  Sometimes the only answer is not to take part in the game - no ownership no tax.  Or potentially pay big in fighting or with high taxes. Think it through very carefully before taking on the obligation.


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## gregb

We have been seriously thinking of purchasing another week at WKORN on the resale market, and were getting ready to making some offers.  However, given the uncertainty in taxes (both local and state), and it's adverse affect on Maintenance Fees, we will not be purchasing another week.  I expect this is true of others as well.  

What does that mean to Maui?  Well it means instead of us visiting Maui for 4 weeks a year, and spending our Mainland money on the economy, we will only be visiting for 2 weeks.  Half the time, half the money spent.  Will the room be empty because of that?  It might be.  Especially if the cost of visiting keeps going up faster than inflation.  Empty rooms has a negative impact on the Maui economy.

One has to ask, is he proposing to increase the tax rate on any of the other classes of property?  Like hotel/resorts?  Or is it just the timeshares?

Greg


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## gregb

While the dramatic increase in taxes at Starwood resorts on Maui was big news here, and increased MF by large amounts, I did not hear much out of the Marriott camp.  Does anyone know what/if the Marriott TS experienced the dramatic increase in assessed value that we did?  If not, it would seem that would a fertile area for lawsuit.  That is, the county is not assessing all properties at fair market value.

So what has happened on the Marriott TS for MF and taxes?

Also, if they raise the millage rate, it would affect all TS on Maui, not just Starwood.  So there ought to be lots of support against this from the HOA's of all the other TS on the island.  Maybe a PAC funded by the HOAs from all the TS on Maui would be the best way to approach this.  

Greg


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## Fredm

gregb said:


> So what has happened on the Marriott TS for MF and taxes?
> 
> Greg



Marriott had a similar increase. They appealed, and won a small adjustment based on assessed value.
Proportionately similar to the Starwood adjustment.


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## GregT

Found this online -- not sure what to make of the italicized section (I added the italics, that's not how it was shown), I'd be surprised if the property taxes remained flat.....



Mayor Alan Arakawa has proposed a $632 million budget for Maui County, an increase of $107.8 million from the current fiscal year.

The proposal includes $475.3 million for county operations (a $40.8 million increase), as well as $156.7 million for capital improvement projects (a $67 million increase).

Arakawa said Friday that much of the county's increased revenues for the coming year are the result of unanticipated savings from prior years, and noted that the additional money would be a one-time deal, as the county's regular sources of revenue are still tight.

_Arakawa proposed increasing real property tax rates to compensate for the continued decline in property values -- which were projected to be down 13.7 percent from the previous year. Under the proposal, property taxes would be "revenue neutral" meaning landowners would expect to pay about the same amount as last year._

Other highlights from Arakawa's first budget proposal of his current term include:

>$19.9 million for road resurfacing and safety improvements, up from $10.1 million in the current year.

>$43.9 million for water system upgrades, up from $23 million.

>$12.4 million for drainage improvement projects, up from $10.1 million.

>Ending county employee furloughs.

"My administration is dedicated to the goal of decreasing operating expenses while strengthening our commitment to support the essential services to our community," he said in written remarks.

The Maui County Council is expected to begin its review of the budget later this month. The council has until June 10 to approve the budget for fiscal year 2012, which takes effect July 1.

For more information, see Saturday's edition of The Maui News.


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## GregT

And I also found this -- go Syed!!!!!  Thanks for highlighting this issue...


http://advantagevacation.com/blog/2011/03/19/proposed-property-tax-increase-for-maui-timeshares/


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## Fredm

Syed said:


> Good question...Are the timeshare owners property owners or hotel guests? Seems like we are both in Maui. Interesting legal question!



Yep! It is double dipping for sure.
Although a weak case could be made for it *IF *timeshare and residential tax rates were the same.

It also goes to the issue of nexus.

A proposed timeshare property tax rate 1,000% higher than residential rates cannot rationally be defended, even if the TAT did not exist. There cannot be, IMO, a demonstrated nexus between the tax rate and the impact of timeshare owners on the service delivery cost structure.
The term "arbitrary and capricious" comes to mind.

Any doubt about the discriminatory mind set of the County Council can be dispelled by these comments quoted in The Maui News:

"Hokama told panelists that he does do not view time-share owners “as an equal to us” when it comes to residency and ownership. They do not vote here and do not live here full time, Hokama said."

Or, how about this one:
"I don't see it being a need in our county to have time share," said G. Riki Hokama, Maui County Council chairman. "*That's not the visitor I want here.*"

As to the arbitrary nature of the tax, courtesy of LisaRex
The State of Hawaii cannot find the justification for Maui's stated reasons to impose such a tax rate.

By way of comparison, California taxes timeshare owners at the same tax rate as residents. California is satisfied to collect more taxes from timeshares because the assessed value on 52 intervals is higher than a comparable residential condo. As it is on Maui.

Imposing a TAT on top of an arbitrary tax rate (arrived at capriciously), 
just adds insult to injury.

Governmental abuse of taxing authority at its worst, IMO.


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## LisaRex

Ugh.  The only good news is that perhaps this proposed increase will motivate enough people to throw in some bucks to fight this.  We don't have the ability to vote, so we are not truly "homeowners."   Nor are we tourists who can exercise our right to avoid Maui in order to protest their usurious taxes.  We're a special class -- contractually obligated to pay whether or not we stay.   

I think that consumer protection laws should be written to offer protections for classes of people in our position.  I don't know much, but I do know that courts do not like one-sided contracts.  

Maui county has gone above and beyond to make TS owners feel unwelcome.  Somehow, some clever marketing guy with an agenda sold them on the idea that TS owners are bottom feeders.  My advice is this:  If you don't want timeshares, then deny TS permits.  Otherwise, treat us like you'd treat any other guest on your island.


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## tombo

Get as many owners as you can to send a letter to each and every politician who will vote on the proposed tax increase and inform them that if it passes that you will reduce spending on your annual trips to Maui double the amount your taxes increase. Inform them that you will eat in the room instead of eating out, refuse to take scenic cruises, no more helicopter flights, no more Luaua's, whatever you need to cut back on you will. 

Inform the politicians that since they feel that they can inflate taxes on timeshare owners who have no local vote, that the timeshare owners will have their own mini tea party revolt against the unfair taxation of timeshares. Make sure and get the timeshare HOA to send out a letter or e-mail to all owners to ask them to participate in the letter writing campaign. Make sure to send letters to the local newspapers.

The only power timeshare owners have over local politicians is the power of what they spend while they are on the Islands. If local businesses feel like they are going to lose business and be hurt financially they will exert pressure on the politicians to not pass this tax. Of course the only way to make it work is to actually stop spending if the threat doesn't work and it does pass. If the majority of owners continue to spend as they always have after it passes, then future tax increases are coming for sure. 

Whenever you are driving by your favorite restaurant stop in and tell the mgr that you would have eaten with them once or twice, but because of the tax increase you will not be dining with them on this or any future trips. Call the helicopter tour, the snorkle cruise, the luaua, anything you normally do and tell them how much you liked their services in the past and that you would still be a customer of theirs except for the ridiculous tax increase. Tell them all that you come every year for at least a week and you will no longer patronize businesses on an island that doesn't appreciate the dollars spent by timeshare owners. Tell them all that you are posting on websites and talking to everyone at the pool asking them to do the same and boycott local businesses. 

It might not get them to stop the tax increase or repeal the taxes after they pass, but it might. Even if your taxes do increase, the money you save eating in the room and mixing your own drinks will more than pay for the tax increase. If enough people do this Maui's business owners will become your strongest advocate.


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## ondeadlin

This increase probably works out to under $100 per year per interval.

While I completely agree that it's an unfair burden being passed on to a non-voting constituency, I'd be very surprised to see any serious movement against it by owners outside of TUG.

As we've discussed time and time again here, TUG is a small minority of timeshare owners, and I just can't see the folks who drop $50k for a developer week getting all that worked up over an additional $100/year. Many of these folks want the Hawaii vacation experience without resorting to any serious financial analysis (if they did, they'd buy resale or rent). They're not going to even know about this increase, let alone organize to fight it.


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## tombo

ondeadlin said:


> This increase probably works out to under $100 per year per interval.
> 
> While I completely agree that it's an unfair burden being passed on to a non-voting constituency, I'd be very surprised to see any serious movement against it by owners outside of TUG.
> 
> As we've discussed time and time again here, TUG is a small minority of timeshare owners, and I just can't see the folks who drop $50k for a developer week getting all that worked up over an additional $100/year. Many of these folks want the Hawaii vacation experience without resorting to any serious financial analysis (if they did, they'd buy resale or rent). They're not going to even know about this increase, let alone organize to fight it.



I agree to many it won't matter, but $100 to $200 in annnual tax increases would pay for a couple of casual lunches or a fine dining meal or two while on Maui per week owned. Plus it is the principle of maui doing it to timeshare owners and no others that would get my goat. 

If I owned on Maui I would sell on principle. If they didn't appreciate my timeshare investment on their Island, then I would take my travel dollars elsewhere. They are not the only beautiful island in the world, heck they aren't even the only lush tropical  island in Hawaii. 

As the head of the Maui Council made clear in his statement: "I don't see it being a need in our county to have time share," said G. Riki Hokama, Maui County Council chairman. "That's not the visitor I want here.". Maui politicians have made it very clear through their statements and taxation policies that to them timeshare owners are unacceptable visitors.

Go to Kauai where they don't hate timeshare owners. JMHO


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## rickandcindy23

There should be some better alternative for getting more income than billing timeshare owners. 

Perhaps Oprah Winfrey and all of the famous and very rich should pay a much higher percentage of property taxes.  The taxes are VERY LOW for homeowners.  Oprah is getting a bargain.  

It's actually very discouraging as a Maui visitor to realize we are not really wanted.  The mayor said before, "they are not the kind of visitor I want."

http://www.co.maui.hi.us/index.aspx?NID=755

Classification
 Land
 Building

Improved Residential  $5.00
 $5.00

Apartment $5.00
 $5.00

Commercial $6.25
 $6.25

Industrial $6.50
 $6.50

Agricultural $5.00
 $5.00

Conservation $5.00
 $5.00

Hotel and Resort $8.30
 $8.30

Unimproved Residential $6.25
 $6.25

Homeowner $2.50
 $2.50

Time Share $14.00
 $14.00

Commercialized Residential $4.00
 $4.00


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## LisaRex

ondeadlin said:


> ...I just can't see the folks who drop $50k for a developer week getting all that worked up over an additional $100/year. Many of these folks want the Hawaii vacation experience without resorting to any serious financial analysis (if they did, they'd buy resale or rent). They're not going to even know about this increase, let alone organize to fight it.



That's like saying that someone who buys a Lexus would be okay paying 7x what everyone else pays for gas.  Just because you can afford to pay more, doesn't mean that you should.  Having TS owners, who spend one week on the island, pay 7 times the property tax rate as a person who lives on the island -- and enjoys the fruits of those taxes --  52 weeks a year, is unfair and outrageous. 

And while I dropped $50k on my TS (resale, btw), that doesn't mean that I'll cheerfully and ignorantly pony up another $100 a year in taxes, especially when the pain isn't equally administered. 

If Maui cannot make it on their current tax base, they should do what every other city/state in the union is doing: raise taxes on their constituency or cut spending.  TS owners are already paying a disproportionate share of the taxes.   They need to quit pecking off the same voiceless corpse!


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## ondeadlin

Lisa,

I specifically said that it's not ok. It's unfair.

But, again, I expect most folks won't even notice it. You're obviously a savvy consumer, like most people on TUG. But you're in the minority in that area IMO.


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## LarryAck

tombo said:


> Get as many owners as you can to send a letter to each and every politician who will vote on the proposed tax increase and inform them that if it passes that you will reduce spending on your annual trips to Maui double the amount your taxes increase. Inform them that you will eat in the room instead of eating out, refuse to take scenic cruises, no more helicopter flights, no more Luaua's, whatever you need to cut back on you will.
> 
> Inform the politicians that since they feel that they can inflate taxes on timeshare owners who have no local vote, that the timeshare owners will have their own mini tea party revolt against the unfair taxation of timeshares. Make sure and get the timeshare HOA to send out a letter or e-mail to all owners to ask them to participate in the letter writing campaign. Make sure to send letters to the local newspapers.
> 
> The only power timeshare owners have over local politicians is the power of what they spend while they are on the Islands. If local businesses feel like they are going to lose business and be hurt financially they will exert pressure on the politicians to not pass this tax. Of course the only way to make it work is to actually stop spending if the threat doesn't work and it does pass. If the majority of owners continue to spend as they always have after it passes, then future tax increases are coming for sure.
> 
> Whenever you are driving by your favorite restaurant stop in and tell the mgr that you would have eaten with them once or twice, but because of the tax increase you will not be dining with them on this or any future trips. Call the helicopter tour, the snorkle cruise, the luaua, anything you normally do and tell them how much you liked their services in the past and that you would still be a customer of theirs except for the ridiculous tax increase. Tell them all that you come every year for at least a week and you will no longer patronize businesses on an island that doesn't appreciate the dollars spent by timeshare owners. Tell them all that you are posting on websites and talking to everyone at the pool asking them to do the same and boycott local businesses.
> 
> It might not get them to stop the tax increase or repeal the taxes after they pass, but it might. Even if your taxes do increase, the money you save eating in the room and mixing your own drinks will more than pay for the tax increase. If enough people do this Maui's business owners will become your strongest advocate.




The real problem with this argument is are you going to pay $2,000 in airfare, rent a car, and gas for another $500, and destroy your vacation by not eating out and doing the things you want to do because of a $100 tax increase.  "Its like cutting off your nose" yada yada yada.  I think there has to be a better way around this.  As somebody else said, there should be a timeshare interest group who would hire attorneys to fight these outrageous tax increases.


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## DavidnRobin

LarryAck said:


> The real problem with this argument is are you going to pay $2,000 in airfare, rent a car, and gas for another $500, and destroy your vacation by not eating out and doing the things you want to do because of a $100 tax increase.  "Its like cutting off your nose" yada yada yada.  I think there has to be a better way around this.  As somebody else said, there should be a timeshare interest group who would hire attorneys to fight these outrageous tax increases.




For us - we have cut back our spending when traveling to HI and STJ and this has mainly been due to the hefty increase in MFs over the last couple of years.
In 2009 we traveled to HI (WKORV, WPORV) we spent 2 weeks in Kauai and 2 weeks in Maui. iirc - we had dinner out 3 times while in Kauai and 3 times in Maui (almost the opposite from previous trips).  The same with WSJ - 2 weeks in June 2010 - we ate dinner our about 3-4 times.  For our week-long Dec'10 trip to WKORV - again we spent a lot less than in prior years in both activities and meals.

Will this continue? For us - probably so.  Increasing vacation costs only decreases our outlay of money for activities and meals.  It does not decrease (ruin) our vacation experince because we are quite happy with eating in and hanging out on the beach (until they figure out how to charge us for snorkling and hiking - and laying around on the beach or at the pool). Then again - we live in the SF Bay Area where there is a lot to do already (as well as stressful work) - so doing very little on vacation and spending less is very appealing.  If costs continues to increase - we will likely start renting our weeks to cover MFs, and use the SPs and FF miles we have amassed to stay closer to home., and visit family and friends.  YMMV


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## Syed

This week I met with the Manager of Consolidated Management. They manage a number of timeshare properties on this island. He told me they have hired a lobby firm and they intend to pursue this vigorously. He believes and I agree it will hurt his employees, local businesses and increase delinquencies. I have been told other management companies plan to hire lobby firms and pursue this matter aggressively. 
The Budget and Finance Committee will meet on March 30. Additional community meetings of interest will be held in West Maui on April 5 and April 13 in South Maui.

I am going to try to schedule an appointment to meet with the West Maui County Council woman and also the Mayor and plan to attend the meetings on April 5 and 13. 
My presentation will include the tax increase will really hurt the people of this island (the people who live, work and vote here)... like the employees who work at Westin, Marriott, Diamond, Consolidated Resorts,I will also bring up how timeshare visitors go to restaurants, luaus, and are here even when hotel occupancy rates are down.

I would also like to take petition letters with me from any of you who are interested in sending one. I have never done this before, so I am open to your suggestions on how to get this to me.


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## Scott&Laura

I am struck by the fact that seasonal property owners in Hawaii are arbitrarily levied with a big increase.

Hawaii has an inordinately high number of public Union and other employees on a per capita basis, who have fabulous benefits and pensions..

The State of Hawaii government has indebted ~$7600 per Hawaiian of unpaid debt. the pension plan is in deeptrouble. The Governor is elected by the very people who rely on those funds.

This touches on issue
http://www.grassrootinstitute.org/g...hawaii-government-employees-retirement-system

The fact is the Governor cutting expenses is limited. Somefixed, some discretionary and some variable--but politics says keep running up the debt.The cost of oil and hawaii's dependance on fossil fueled transported goods and Services, adds to the burden.

The Governor is desperate for money, The local businesses are hurting and can't afford an increase in Taxes. So the short term quick fix is to extract from seasonal owners.thiswill negatively impact the local economy.  basically hawaii is hemorhaging and the Timeshares offer a tourniquet, whereas the local economy is only slowly bleeding and not quite the emergency.

I expect things to get worse, than tourism to drastically drop, than marginal timeshgares to dissappear with the subsequent loss of revenue.


For me I'm just going to drive by the Mayor's house and Egg it.

Scott


----------



## Darwin

Syed,
Thank you for taking the time and effort.  As an elected official, I want to know how my constituents feel and how proposals affect them.  There are many states and counties that are having financial difficulties.  Hawaii and Maui are no different, raise taxes and/or cut spending.  I try to be open to other options, so maybe offer an alternative solution.  Show how this tax increase will cause more harm than revenue generated.  Petitions from voters will go farther than from non voters.  Finally, educate the elected officials.  
The trouble I see with Maui's mayor, is that he does not want timeshares period.  Has said so publicly.  So nothing may change his stance except an election.   
Darwin


----------



## gregb

One can reasonably ask why the increase is only affecting Time Shares?  How is that equitable?  Yes I know we don't get to vote.  But doesn't reasonableness have to have some affect on the outcome?

Greg


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## Syed

Darwin,  Thank you for your suggestion. I will incorporate it into my presentation.


----------



## Scott&Laura

Syed;

What is the rationale as to the large disparity between the $8.50 Hotels and Resorts charge, and Timeshares at $14.00 The transient visitors staying at Hotels and Resorts, have such a discount over owners?

I might understand that hotel and resort people eat out more rather than using Timeshare conveniences, but your sales tax is only ~4.25%.  I'm form Minnesota the land of taxes. I wonder why they don't raise the sales taxesfor bars and restaraunts. 

Does Hawaii as a state collect revenues and redistribute to counties, so the local property taxes can stay down? If so are they being cutdown?

Scott


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## rickandcindy23

I am always surprised by the low sales tax on the islands.  Computer systems are sophisticated enough to have two taxes: one for Hawaiian residents (just show driver's license), and a higher tax for all visitors.  The only ones who would offer their licenses would be locals, since they would be aware of the difference.  

I would rather see all visitors pay 9% sales tax than have timeshare owners targeted for higher property taxes.  It's absurd.


----------



## Ken555

rickandcindy23 said:


> I am always surprised by the low sales tax on the islands.  Computer systems are sophisticated enough to have two taxes: one for Hawaiian residents (just show driver's license), and a higher tax for all visitors.  The only ones who would offer their licenses would be locals, since they would be aware of the difference.
> 
> I would rather see all visitors pay 9% sales tax than have timeshare owners targeted for higher property taxes.  It's absurd.



Interesting suggestion. I suspect, if ever considered, the answer would be that the national press would make a huge story over raising sales tax on all visitors, and there won't even be mention of a timeshare tax increase. Increasing sales tax on all visitors would likely reduce the number of tourists more than any increase in revenue and make it an unprofitable decision.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Ken555 said:


> Interesting suggestion. I suspect, if ever considered, the answer would be that the national press would make a huge story over raising sales tax on all visitors, and there won't even be mention of a timeshare tax increase. Increasing sales tax on all visitors would likely reduce the number of tourists more than any increase in revenue and make it an unprofitable decision.



We pay nearly 9% in Thornton, CO, and Denver is the same, so I don't mind paying higher sales taxes while on Maui and Kauai. How many states and big cities do you suppose pay <5% in sales tax?  

I understand what you mean, though.  Timeshare owners are an easy target.


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## Scott&Laura

Sales taxes are usually consideredto be regressive by nature. 

The wealthy are unaffected but a jump in taxes of %5 to 9% on all purchases, would be essentially reducing finaccially disadvantaged peoples by 5%. That won't fly.

Minnesota handles that through large Sin taxes i.e. eat, drink and be merry types of discretionary spending.  

I have some good freinds who are native Americans. If we get them to buy Wkorv, or Wkorvn, maybe they can set up and run a Casino.

Tourism is such a huge part of Hawaiis income, I wonder why they don't subsidize Airline flights to get the people who will spend. Some Carribean and South American places do it to get tourists. Raising taxes on things that people don't bother about, like rental cars, Scuba Diving trips, etc.. Seems a vehicle to at least provide some additional revenue and reduce the hit on Timeshares.

Syed, it just occured to me Maui Taxes are predatory and discrimanatory by practice. Is the fact  timeshare are owners so they are going to come regardless, as opposed to Hotel and resort where room rates would immediately cause a loss of tourists a reason for the maui mayors decision??

Scott


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## rickandcindy23

> The wealthy are unaffected but a jump in taxes of %5 to 9% on all purchases, would be essentially reducing finaccially disadvantaged peoples by 5%. That won't fly.



Who visits Hawaii and cannot afford 9% sales tax?  If you spend $2K per week on car rental, food, luaus, souvenirs, etc., a the increase would cost about $80 additional, if my math is right.    

I am saying Hawaiians would be exempt. I feel badly for the Hawaiian people. They need visitors' tax dollars.


----------



## Syed

Scott&Laura said:


> Syed;
> 
> What is the rationale as to the large disparity between the $8.50 Hotels and Resorts charge, and Timeshares at $14.00 The transient visitors staying at Hotels and Resorts, have such a discount over owners?
> 
> I might understand that hotel and resort people eat out more rather than using Timeshare conveniences, but your sales tax is only ~4.25%.  I'm form Minnesota the land of taxes. I wonder why they don't raise the sales taxesfor bars and restaraunts.
> 
> Does Hawaii as a state collect revenues and redistribute to counties, so the local property taxes can stay down? If so are they being cutdown?
> 
> Scott



The legislators feel timeshare owners use more of the roads, beaches, parks etc. The legislators know they have a source to raise revenue without angering their voting base, which is the real reason. Timeshare owners are an easier target. IMO
 It would seem logical to raise sales taxes, but then they would be an outcry from the residents and shop owners. 
Yes, the State redistributes the revnues to the counties, however, Oahu keeps most of it.


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## spuppy

If people who visit Hawaii can easily afford 9%, they can probably afford more. 



rickandcindy23 said:


> Who visits Hawaii and cannot afford 9% sales tax?  If you spend $2K per week on car rental, food, luaus, souvenirs, etc., a the increase would cost about $80 additional, if my math is right.
> 
> I am saying Hawaiians would be exempt. I feel badly for the Hawaiian people. They need visitors' tax dollars.


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## Fredm

rickandcindy23 said:


> Who visits Hawaii and cannot afford 9% sales tax?  If you spend $2K per week on car rental, food, luaus, souvenirs, etc., a the increase would cost about $80 additional, if my math is right.
> 
> *I am saying Hawaiians would be exempt. I feel badly for the Hawaiian people. They need visitors' tax dollars.*



Sales tax is sales tax. It cannot be tiered depending on who the buyer is. 
If a sales tax hike is needed to help fund government services, so be it. It is an option available to lawmakers. Maui has not imposed such an increase because it will be politically unpopular.

Visitors already do pay other taxes (through the nose) that full time residents do not, including:
 - TAT 
 -an additional 5% excise tax on just about everything, including car rentals, *and HOA fees*.
That's right. Timeshare owners also pay a 5% excise tax on their total HOA fees, in addition to an outrageous property tax burden, and TAT.

Before you take out the crying towel for the "Hawaiian people"
consider this:

Residents enjoy a $300,000 owner occupied residential tax exemption. The first 300,000 of assessed value is not taxable.
The remainder is taxed at $2/1000.
So, the owner of a $500,000  "shack" pays $400/year in property taxes.  A $1,200,000 owner occupied property pays $1,800/year. 

Now, the timeshare property taxpayer (annualized) using WKORV 2 b/r  as the example: (this is at the current $14/1000 tax rate):

Property tax = ~$24,000/year.
TAT (assuming an 80% occupancy rate)  = ~$3,500/yr.
Excise Tax on $2,400 m'f's x52 weeks  = ~ $6,300
Total annual tax on the timeshare property owner = ~$33,800/year.

The proposed tax rate increase to $19.60 would raise timeshare property taxes (and the excise tax on them) by an *additional 40%*. 

Make no mistake about this. Maui County is not soliciting ideas (nor do they care about) how to distribute the tax burden more equitably.  They have absolutely decided that they will not impose a higher tax on residents and businesses. They don't possess that kind of civic courage.

You can decide if the above tax distribution is equitable or not. Personally, I don't believe it is even legal.

The argument that transients consume more services overall than residents is debatable. However, it is the basis and rationale for the TAT, which all occupants of hotels and timeshares pay anyway. So, I will accept its virtue.
The rest is double talk.

The above is fact (excepting my opinion of legality). Now the rant.

There is no question that the Hawaii economy is based on tourism.
But, don't confuse "visitor tax dollars" with tourism spending.
The "Hawaiian people" need the latter. Maui's elected government wants the former so they can abdicate their governance responsibility.

The local economy floats on tourists spending money for goods and services. 
Just ask any restaurant owner, taxi driver, waiter, bell hop, tour provider, retailer, etc.
In consuming these services, tourists also pay the various Hawaii governments the stated sales taxes (whatever they may be).  When tourism declines everyone and everything, including the tax coffers, suffer.
Making timeshare owners exclusively  fund the burden of a budget gap caused by increased County spending, and less consumer spending, is the crux of the matter.

I know that an incremental property tax of $200/year is not a deal breaker for some timeshare vacationers. Many will, however, curtail spending on the local economy as a result. Such is economic reality.

I will readily pay my* fair share *of any tax increase, in any form, needed to maintain (or improve) County services. What I personally object to is a local government body that panders to its core constituency, without regard to their responsibility to overall governance.
I don't like being abused by a petty local politician simply because I can't get to them at the ballot box.
Shame on them.


----------



## gravitar

They could provide a sales tax refund via a line item on the State income tax return. It could be a sliding refund based on gross or net income.


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## Fredm

gravitar said:


> They could provide a sales tax refund via a line item on the State income tax return. It could be a sliding refund based on gross or net income.



The problem with sales tax revenue in Maui's predominantly tourist economy is its instability. Lower tourism spending blows the economy out of the water on many fronts, no matter the sales tax rate. Less tourist spending = less goods and services sold, less employment and less business income tax from shrinking and failed businesses. It need not get more complicated than that.  
When the economy is humming, everyone is happy. 
This has been Hawaii's dilemma ever since tourism overtook agriculture as its primary revenue producing industry in the late 1950's. It's property tax laws are based on the powerful land interests memorialized in the mid 1800's, and through the 1950's. 

An appreciation of Hawaii's land politics can be had by reading Hawaii Pono (A Social History) by Lawrence Fuchs. It is fascinating reading.

Maui County COULD do a lot of things. Including allocating a realistic and equitable tax rate to residents. And/or reduce spending to reflect the economic necessities of these difficult times.

What they ARE doing is laying it all on timeshare owners in the form of additional property taxes.

Without question, the simplest, most equitable, least disruptive, most easily modifiable, most protective of the tourist economy, and most reliable revenue stream, would be to lower the resident homeowner exemption from 300k to 200k. It would be a boondoggle at that. If lowered to $100,000 Maui would be swimming in money. 

But, Maui County already knows all of this.
As I said, they are not soliciting ideas. They are quite intentionally sticking it to timeshare owners. 
It allows the Mayor to say to the voters that property taxes will not increase despite lower property valuations, and increased spending on services.  Better to blame the pilikia on the haoles who cannot vote.


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## LisaRex

Fredm said:


> Without question, the simplest, most equitable, least disruptive, most easily modifiable, most protective of the tourist economy, and most reliable revenue stream, would be to lower the resident homeowner exemption from 200k to 100k. It would be a boondoggle at that.



Not really a nitpick considering the amount of money involved, but the homeowner exception is actually $300k. 

"If you are an owner occupant, you may qualify for the homeowner’s exemption of $300,000 which reduces your net taxable value and the tax rate."

http://co.maui.hi.us/FAQ.aspx?TID=91
"How can I lower my property taxes?"


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## Fredm

LisaRex said:


> Not really a nitpick considering the amount of money involved, but the homeowner exception is actually $300k.
> 
> "If you are an owner occupant, you may qualify for the homeowner’s exemption of $300,000 which reduces your net taxable value and the tax rate."
> 
> http://co.maui.hi.us/FAQ.aspx?TID=91
> "How can I lower my property taxes?"



Thanks Lisa. Not a nitpick at all. I was operating from memory. I corrected the text.
I actually overstated the property taxes paid by residents.
Property taxes on a $500,000 shack are only $400/year.

By way of comparison, my California homeowner exemption is $7,000.


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## Westin5Star

The property taxes on my CA home are about $30k per year.  I'm not sure of what they would be in Hawaii but I am pretty sure that it would be much less.  I think CA needs to find a better way to stick it to tourist like Maui has.


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## vacationtime1

Westin5Star said:


> The property taxes on my CA home are about $30k per year.  I'm not sure of what they would be in Hawaii but I am pretty sure that it would be much less.  I think CA needs to find a better way to stick it to tourist like Maui has.



Fleecing tourists is a time honored tradition everywhere.  Here in San Francisco, we have a 15.5% hotel tax, a 25% parking tax (just try to find street parking downtown; parking for commuters and tourists costs $25+/day), and a 9.5% sales tax.

OTOH, we have rent controlled apartments for tenants and Proposition 13 controlled property taxes to benefit the owners of our absurdly priced houses and condos (as well as the corporations and pension plans that own skyscrapers).

I am not trying to justify what the County of Maui is doing:  taxation without representation is tyranny whether in Maui or in San Francisco.  And political expediency is political expediency wherever it occurs as well.

I will post my thoughts about what this means to TS owners separately; I only want to make the point here that what is happening is not unique to Maui.


----------



## Fredm

Fleecing tourists is done everywhere.
Hawaii is no piker in this regard. We already get fleeced as tourists.

Fleecing timeshare property owners (as property owners) is another matter. 

California's tax rate is the same for residential owners and timeshares. 
California does receive more tax from timeshares than a comparable condo because the assessed value of 52 intervals is higher.  Maui does the same thing on assessed valuations.
BUT, then charges a tax rate 700% higher, and is proposing to increase that to 1000%.


----------



## vacationtime1

A tax increase costs us in two ways; *the actual tax is only the tip of the iceberg*.  FredM calculates the existing tax burden to be $33,800/unit tax at WKORV, meaning we each already pay $662.75/unit/year out of pocket.  This strikes me as more than adequate inasmuch as timeshare owners do not send their children to the public schools, which is probably the largest single line item in the County budget.  

  Any increase in taxes will adversely affect the value of our ownership interests.  An extra $300/year of operating costs per unit suggests that each and every unit will decrease in value by about $3,000, assuming a 10% cap rate (those who think this 10% is high will argue the diminution in value is even greater).  So this is not a matter of just paying some money; *the proposed tax increase actually represents a proposed transfer of wealth from one class of property owners (TS) to another (owners of residential property on Maui)*.

  Many have pointed out in many other threads that Hawaii TS’s have lost value because of out-of-control MF’s and unpredictable airfares.  The tax increase is a textbook example of this problem.

What can we as TS owners can do about this?   Last year's attempt to raise taxes by over-assessing TS valuations was muted by threatened legal action; assessments at WKORV/N were successfully compromised and MF's actually decreased this year as a result.  We must make legal challenges to this year's unfair tax increase as well.  This is best done at the HOA level as others have pointed out.  Every TS owner has an identity of interest on this subject; we need to insure that each of our HOA’s understands that an extra $300 (or whatever) of property taxes must be given the same attention as $300 of utility, refurbishment, or landscaping costs.


----------



## Fredm

vacationtime1 said:


> A tax increase costs us in two ways; *the actual tax is only the tip of the iceberg*.  FredM calculates the existing tax burden to be $33,800/unit tax at WKORV, meaning we each already pay $662.75/unit/year out of pocket.  *This strikes me as more than adequate inasmuch as timeshare owners do not send their children to the public schools, which is probably the largest single line item in the County budget.  *



Actually the two largest items in the County budget are health /social services and public safety.
County hospitals, clinics, welfare payments, shelters, subsidized housing,  work programs, drug rehabs, etc. --- Courts, jails, police, fire, and other safety services. 
Then schools. Much of the school money comes from the State budget as "return to source" funds from state sales tax, income taxes, etc.
I don't mean to imply that school funding is not a huge amount. Just that the money comes from a different pocket.

Timeshare owners consume a fraction of 1% of County services.  Yet, pay handsomely to support them.
Everyone benefits from Fire and Police services, so timeshare owners are consumers of these services.
From a financial impact perspective the services most consumed by timeshare owners consist of those associated with the Parks Dept. budget.  Public toilets, litter removal from parks/beaches, and general maintenance of same. Some of this is in the State budget, and TAT helps fund these.

Looked at differently, timeshare owners pay more property taxes in total than all 38,505 owner occupied residences on Maui do.  Yet, the full time population of 145,157 (every man, woman and child) consumes almost all County funded services.
Of course, hotels, apartment complex owners, commercial structures, manufacturers, farmers, etc. also pay property taxes on their land uses. 
But, nothing like timeshare owners.

The sad fact of the matter is County budgeting everywhere is extremely difficult and under intense pressure. And everywhere, residential property owners support these essential services to varying degrees. 
Everywhere that is except Hawaii in general, and Maui in particular.


----------



## siesta

Fredm said:


> Fleecing tourists is done everywhere.
> Hawaii is no piker in this regard. We already get fleeced as tourists.
> 
> Fleecing timeshare property owners (as property owners) is another matter.
> 
> California's tax rate is the same for residential owners and timeshares.
> California does receive more tax from timeshares than a comparable condo because the assessed value of 52 intervals is higher.  Maui does the same thing on assessed valuations.
> BUT, then charges a tax rate 700% higher, and is proposing to increase that to 1000%.


 What comes to mind is:

"Milk the cow, but do not pull off the udder."


----------



## Fredm

Westin5Star said:


> The property taxes on my CA home are about $30k per year.  I'm not sure of what they would be in Hawaii but I am pretty sure that it would be much less.  I think CA needs to find a better way to stick it to tourist like Maui has.



Back of the envelope. If your California property taxes are ~30k, your assessed value is ~2.7mm.

On Maui your property tax would be ~ $5,000/year.


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## LisaRex

From my previous post in the Hawaii thread re the TAT:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1054155&postcount=23

Perhaps you didn't realize that Maui county created an entirely new classification of property ("timeshare") so that timeshare owners are ALREADY subjected to a tax rate that is 6 to 7 times more than what resident homeowners pay. (In addition to a higher tax rate, residents also enjoy a $300,000 exemption right off the top before they ever pay a penny in property taxes.) 

Timeshare owners' property tax rates are 65% higher than a hotel. 

Example: 

*Take a piece of property valued at $2,000,000. Here is what each of us would owe per year in property taxes:

Maui resident homeowner: $4.250
A hotel guest: $17,000
A TS owner: $28,000 
*

Real Estate Property Rates on Maui (per $1000 of valuation): 
Improved Residential $5.00
Apartment $5.00
Commercial $6.25
Industrial $6.50
Agricultural $5.00
Conservation $5.00
Hotel and Resort $8.30
Unimproved Residential $6.25
Homeowner $2.50
Time Share $14.00
Commercialized Residential $4.00

Here's what I pay to Maui County for one week in my 1200 sq. foot villa in Maui, just in taxes:

Real Estate Taxes: $396.78
General Excise Tax: $62.68
North Beach West Maui Benefit Fund: $10.30
Occupancy Tax: $98
Total: $567.76

I'm all for spreading out the pain, but I fail to see why the person who stays there one week per year -- and bolsters their economy in the process by eating out, doing activities -- should subsidize the people who live there year round at such a disproportionate rate.

****

And this was BEFORE the proposed TAT and property tax rates increased.  Honestly, I think that the best way to fight this is to file a lawsuit against the state for collecting the TAT.  According to Maui, we are property owners, not tourists.  So we shouldn't be paying a TAT at all. 

We're paying over $500 in taxes before ever setting foot on the island. How can they justify this?


----------



## jarta

Fredm,   ...   I know that you know that increasing the ratio of already-discriminatory tax rates to make them more confiscatory is hardly the answer to Maui's economic problems.

Discrimination in tax rates is generally allowed by the courts - but only for the reason that the discrimination is rationally based.  In deciding if the discriminatory tax has a rational basis, the burden is on the taxpayer to prove the negative (there is no rational basis) and almost any difference in situation will be seized upon by the local court to approve of the tax.

Recently (February 22, 2011) the US Supreme Court allowed a railroad to challenge an alleged discriminatory Alabama tax on railroads in federal court.  It found that a federal statute allowed a railroad to challenge the discriminatory tax.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/09-520.ZS.html 

It seems railroads are more organized and have better lobbyists than ordinary taxpayers.  A federal statute (adopted to stop annoying taxpayer suits brought in federal court during the Great Depression) removes federal court jurisdiction over suits to enjoin a State property tax on the basis it is unconstitutional (confiscatory or unequal) when the State remedy is "plain, speedy and efficient."  So, property taxpayers are stuck litigating in front of a local judge who probably came up through the local government process on matters of vital interest to local government.

And, in almost all cases they lose because tax revenue is considered the lifeblood of local government.   ...   eom


----------



## Fredm

LisaRex said:


> I'm all for spreading out the pain, but I fail to see why the person who stays there one week per year -- and bolsters their economy in the process by eating out, doing activities -- should subsidize the people who live there year round at such a disproportionate rate.
> 
> ****
> 
> And this was BEFORE the proposed TAT and property tax rates increased.  Honestly, I think that the best way to fight this is to file a lawsuit against the state for collecting the TAT.  According to Maui, we are property owners, not tourists.  So we shouldn't be paying a TAT at all.
> 
> We're paying over $500 in taxes before ever setting foot on the island. How can they justify this?



All true. 

But, it really goes beyond all of what you rightly state.
In addition to property taxes, TAT, GET, goods/services purchased, sales taxes paid on same, timeshare owners are also employers. Every member of the resort staff is in our employ. They pay income taxes and are consumers on the local economy because of the jobs we provide.


----------



## Fredm

jarta said:


> Discrimination in tax rates is generally allowed by the courts - but only for the reason that the discrimination is rationally based.  In deciding if the discriminatory tax has a rational basis, *the burden is on the taxpayer to prove the negative (there is no rational basis) and almost any difference in situation will be seized upon by the local court to approve of the tax.*
> 
> A federal statute (adopted to stop annoying taxpayer suits brought in federal court during the Great Depression) removes federal court jurisdiction over suits to enjoin a State property tax on the basis it is unconstitutional (confiscatory or unequal) when the State remedy is "plain, speedy and efficient."  So, property taxpayers are stuck litigating in front of a local judge who probably came up through the local government process on matters of vital interest to local government.
> 
> And, in almost all cases they lose because tax revenue is considered the lifeblood of local government.   ...   eom



Jarta, no doubt proving a negative is an uphill battle, even when it can be demonstrated that the tax is discriminatory .

However, the State of Hawaii has already opined that Maui County cannot demonstrate a rational nexus as the basis for its timeshare tax rate. 
I don't know how much courage this will give a local judge. But, it does leave the door open should a State judge be inclined to fairness.
After all, Maui's revenue problems are self-inflicted.
They set the tax rates. The State Legislature established the principle of "highest and best use" as it applies to valuations only.  Maui can adjust other category tax rates should timeshare rates be found arbitrary and capricious. Not the State's problem. Witness the Islands of Oahu, Kauai, and Hawaii. They pursue a more equitable approach. 

Thus far, timeshares have proven to be the perfect foil for Maui's revenue problems. Owners must pay the tax, and avoids having to justify increased taxes to any other tax classes. 
Pretty much perfect for gutless and irresponsible local officials.

IMO the outcome is predictable. Maui County will respond to whatever organized opposition by negotiating the tax rate to $16-17/1000.  The tax rate will not be challenged in court because it would require funding that will not be forthcoming (for a variety of reasons).
That would be unfortunate. Syed began this thread soliciting suggestions on how to proceed with opposing the proposed tax rate increase.  My comments were meant to cut to the chase.
No legal challenge, no where else to go. I believe that to be true.

You are absolutely correct IMO, "...increasing the ratio of already-discriminatory tax rates to make them more confiscatory is hardly the answer to Maui's economic problems."


----------



## Westin5Star

There is a rumor swirling that Maui voters, in addition to the services that they already get from the county, would now like a check sent to them each month in the amount of several hundred dollars per month per person.  They will likely be voting for the first politician to run their campaign proposing a 100% tax on all timeshare properties in the county.  Congratulations, your MFs just doubled!

We help to pay to educate their kids and give them health care.  Why shouldn't we pay for their food and utilitites too?  It is only fair.


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## gregb

I fail to see how a timeshare unit provides any more use of services than a rental Condo unit.  Both have kitchens, so occupants may eat more meals in the room.  Both have transient use.   How does it make a difference if I spend two weeks at the Whaler, or two weeks at the Westin?  

So why is the tax rate for Time Shares so much higher than for condos?  

Here is an interesting question:

Are units at the Whaler that were sold with 15 day shared ownership classified as Time Shares?  If not, why not?

Greg


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## YYJMSP

gregb said:


> Here is an interesting question:
> 
> Are units at the Whaler that were sold with 15 day shared ownership classified as Time Shares?  If not, why not?



Wouldn't anything sold as fractional ownership be classified as a time-share?

Or is there some way in which certain fractional properties are distinguished from others?


----------



## Fredm

gregb said:


> I fail to see how a timeshare unit provides any more use of services than a rental Condo unit.  Both have kitchens, so occupants may eat more meals in the room.  Both have transient use.   How does it make a difference if I spend two weeks at the Whaler, or two weeks at the Westin?
> 
> So why is the tax rate for Time Shares so much higher than for condos?
> 
> Here is an interesting question:
> 
> Are units at the Whaler that were sold with 15 day shared ownership classified as Time Shares?  If not, why not?
> 
> Greg



Great questions.

Regarding difference in rental use of a condo vs rental of a timeshare, there is not a difference in how the rental is taxed. Both pay a TAT on the rental occupancy.
Timeshares in Hawaii, however, pay a TAT on every night of occupancy, even if occupied by the owner.
It's just a revenue producing gimmick imposed by the State of Hawaii on timeshare property owners. 

Re: Whaler property taxes. The Whaler is a residential condo development. Certain units within the development were converted to fixed fractional ownerships. 
I don't know how Maui classified them. Or, under what classification they are taxed. Perhaps a Whaler owner will chime in.

As a practical matter there is no difference between a timeshare and Whaler fractionals. 
Then again, there is no difference between any residential condo and an owner occupied timeshare. Just the one Maui arbitrarily designates.

BTW, interesting hearing on the proposed (temporary?) timeshare TAT increase this past January.
Note that ARDA, Pahio, Wyndham, threaten legal action. The timeshare TAT increase is clearly detrimental to development.
However, no such threatening language was used in opposition to the Maui property tax formula. Even though the arguments (objections) presented would be much the same.

Jarta is an attorney. I am not. He correctly points out that winning a local discriminatory tax argument is difficult to do.

I can't escape the notion that the difference between the TAT stance, and the Maui property tax, is politics. Gosh, I hope I am wrong and a legal challenge is made.
Next month's hearings on the proposed property tax increase will be interesting theater.


----------



## LisaRex

Fredm said:


> As a practical matter there is no difference between a timeshare and Whaler fractionals. Then again, there is no difference between any residential condo and an owner occupied timeshare. Just the one Maui arbitrarily designates.



Agreed.  I rented a condo from an owner at Ka'anapali Shores the second time I visited Maui.  My spending patterns were identical to when I stay in my TS.  I cook some meals inside, I eat most dinners out.  I usually do one scheduled activity per day, whether they are "free" (snorkeling) or with a company. 

Someone sold Maui on the notion that TS owners are bottom feeders - that we use resources but don't contribute anything to the economy.  Their own commissioned study refuted that finding, but they ignored it.  We're easy prey.  And they are taking advantage of their power over us.  It will be their downfall, IMO, because at some point it will be so usurious that the courts will have to side with the little guy.   We already pay 700x more in property taxes.  They want to increase it to 1000%.  That's ridiculous.


----------



## Fredm

LisaRex said:


> *Someone* sold Maui on the notion that TS owners are bottom feeders - that we use resources but don't contribute anything to the economy.  Their own commissioned study refuted that finding, but they ignored it.



"Someone" was the Maui County Council. 

The Council instructed staff to produce a "finding" to support a predetermined outcome. Happens all the time. 
The Council held hearings and approved the staff findings. 
Never mind that it was a crock, unsupportable by any independent analysis.
It was unadulterated propaganda designed to play to Maui residents. The residents ate it up with a spoon. 

I think we can expect more of the same at the April hearings. 
Syed, thank you for attending.


----------



## pharmgirl

as for TS users being less valuable - some ideas
If we were to take a Hawaiian vacation in hotel, we would go only as a couple as we did prior to buying TSs
Now that we own several, we always bring family and friends with us that otherwise would not have come
so, we have doubled or tripled the number of people coming to hawaii by having TS compared to staying in hotel


----------



## Fredm

pharmgirl said:


> as for TS users being less valuable - some ideas
> If we were to take a Hawaiian vacation in hotel, we would go only as a couple as we did prior to buying TSs
> Now that we own several, we always bring family and friends with us that otherwise would not have come
> so, we have doubled or tripled the number of people coming to hawaii by having TS compared to staying in hotel



You are so right.
According to the following statistics, timeshare occupancies have been a minor salvation to Hawaii's tourist economy.

"The timeshare industry has already displayed that it is a resilient and consistent industry
post 9/11 posting only a 3.5% decrease in the occupancy rate, while hotel occupancy rates
decreased by 17.85%." 

Rather than recognize and nurture the timeshare visitor as a stabilizing influence on the economy Hawaii, and Maui in particular, view an owners financial commitment as reason to abuse it.


----------



## Westin5Star

If I did not own a OFD unit in Maui, I would be selling right now.  It is pretty easy to trade into WKROV now so owning their just doesn't make that much sense.  Pay half the MFs at WKV and exchange in.  

For me this isn't a money thing as much as it is a principle thing.  Outside a victory from a legal battle, I doubt that this situation is going to get any better for TS owners in Maui.


----------



## Ken555

I sympathize with all t/s owners on Maui. The government proposed action is really penny wise, pound foolish given the apparent contribution timeshare owners make on the overall local economy. Fair and equitable taxes should be the goal of all governments, but clearly that's "just politics". I certainly hope the government has studied the negative ramifications of raising taxes on timeshare owners before implementing this change. As said earlier, most timeshare owners won't even know or even care about this change enough to take action, but the principle, as W5* said, is appalling. Those who lead Maui, based on their actions (and those who valued WKORV and other properties at multiples of true value for tax purposes last year/year before) are not the role models our civic leaders should be.

I'll be in Maui for the next two weeks, and I wouldn't be going if not for timeshares. In fact, I'll be in Maui over a month this year across three trips. The government tax increase is just another reason to buy elsewhere and trade in, or travel elsewhere. I think I'll find another place to visit for most of my travel next year (though I may squeeze in a week at WKORV).


----------



## work2travel

ARDA is joining the fight against the proposed tax!  
http://dev.ardaroc.org/roc/legislative-issues/issues.aspx?id=2424

As for me and my family, we will be voting against the County Mayor with our $$$$ this August, just because of the "principle" of this inequitable taxation issue.

I easily can and do pledge to cut down our discretionary spending by at least twice the amount of the proposed tax per week of stay, if it passes.  That translates to a minimum savings of at least $1,000 for our family of four, and we can still have a wonderful vacation time on the island for 2 weeks.  

Cheers, Mr. Arakawa


----------



## Westin5Star

work2travel said:


> As for me and my family, we will be voting against the County Mayor with our $$$$ this August, just because of the "principle" of this inequitable taxation issue.
> 
> I easily can and do pledge to cut down our discretionary spending by at least twice the amount of the proposed tax per week of stay, if it passes.  That translates to a minimum savings of at least $1,000 for our family of four, and we can still have a wonderful vacation time on the island for 2 weeks.
> 
> Cheers, Mr. Arakawa



This is a great idea.  I'm in.  Although I'm not as good a cook as the Lahaina Grill, I do a pretty good job on the BBQ.  I actually enjoy it and I won't even have to take a taxi!  My family and I can be just as happy eating out less, making most of our own drinks with store bought beverages, and snorkeling in front of the resort instead of boats trips. 

I generally spend $3000 or so for meals, drinks, excursions, taxis, tips for those, etc. in a week.  I am pledging to spend less than $1000 during my next Maui visit.


----------



## jarta

5Star,   ...   Why don't you just go somewhere other than Maui and spend your money?  There are terrific places all over the world.

I doubt Mr. Arakawa cares what you, I and other timeshare owners think.  We don't vote in Maui.  So, we don't count.

However, all this talk about spending less by timeshare owners is the very personification of why Maui thinks (wrongly, IMO) timeshares contribute/pay too little while adding too much to the expenses of the county and, further, are destroying the "Hawaiian" way of life.

Don't you remember the signs that said:  "Don't Californicate Oregon."

http://www.votenope.org/others/dontcalifornicateoregon.htm 

Part of the Maui tax problem is that the same attitude is held by most Maui locals.  Change is always unsettling.  And, sometimes there is too much of a good thing and not in my back yard (NIMBY)  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMBY

IMO, the only way to beat this attitude is a lawsuit alleging discrimination that is funded by the timeshare resorts and developers and spearheaded by ARDA.  The current spread in Maui tax rates is probably unjustifiable, irrational and, therefore, unconstitutional.  The proposed increase is merely more so.    ...   eom


----------



## tomandrobin

Its so easy to tax the absent. 

Most people who own timeshares in Hawaii of no idea that any of this proposed tax legislation is happening. Which is why its so tempting for local politicians to go after transient/absent owners......no or very little political blow back. 

If this goes through...again, I guarantee that its only a matter of time before other states catch on and follow with their own taxes.


----------



## work2travel

For those of us who have made a substantial monetary investment in Maui by buying time share week(s) to vacation on the island, resolving to vacation somewhere else would grant Mr. Arakawa his wish X2...  Less timeshare owners on the island while paying an inequitable amount of taxes.  

I am sorry but I won't be forced out.  We all have heard of timeshare scams.  Well, this is one of the biggest ones ever and unfortunately it is lead by the Maui government.  Quite shameful!!! 

I agree to pay my fair share of taxes (and then some) but I don't like it one bit when I am getting ripped off.  I will gladly support any HOAs,  ARDA-ROC etc. that will most likely end up legally challenging Mr. Arakawa's ill conceived tax effort and will also do everything possible within my power to further protect my financial interests by spending less. We are not, by a long shot,Maui hospitality industry's bottom feeders.  I/we can spend less to make up for the increase in taxes AND most importantly to make a point! I 'd rather contribute the difference in what I save to the legal effort than empower Mr. Arakawa to come back and impose even more taxes in the future.  If most timeshare owners showed some financial restraint and Mr. Arakawa's band aid budget attempt failed what do you think would happen at the next election? You guessed it! We may have a new compentent County Mayor.

Our trip this year would mark our 6th annual return to Maui, and believe me, I wont deprive myself or my family of any fun.  We can just enjoy a few BBQ dinners at "home" (which we love in the summer) rather than eating out and snorkel for free at our favorite spots off the coast rather than going to Molokini and save a bundle.     

I love Maui and the people who make up the community of the island, but I don't appreciate being asked to carry an unfair amount of the tax burden and thats why I am voting against the County government with my $$$$ this year!


----------



## jarta

"I love Maui and the people who make up the community of the island"

From all indications, your love is generally not valued and not returned.   ...   eom


----------



## work2travel

jarta said:


> "I love Maui and the people who make up the community of the island"
> 
> From all indications, your love is generally not valued and not returned.   ...   eom



I am pretty sure your response accurately reflects Mr. Arakawa's sentiment - yet he certainly loves all of my/our $$$$.  Another very good reason to give him less of mine


----------



## Fredm

> work2travel said:
> 
> 
> 
> We all have heard of timeshare scams.  Well, this is one of the biggest ones ever and unfortunately it is lead by the Maui government.  Quite shameful!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well put.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will gladly support any HOAs,  *ARDA-ROC etc. that will most likely end up legally challenging Mr. Arakawa's ill conceived tax effort* and will also do everything possible within my power to further protect my financial interests by spending less. We are not, by a long shot,Maui hospitality industry's bottom feeders.  I/we can spend less to make up for the increase in taxes AND most importantly to make a point! I 'd rather contribute the difference in what I save to the legal effort than empower Mr. Arakawa to come back and impose even more taxes in the future.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I truly hope I am wrong, but I do not believe ARDA will take this to court. The various HOA's might, if they could agree on that course of action and further agree to levy a small assessment on all owners.
> I too would gladly contribute to a litigation fund.
> 
> I do have a constructive suggestion. Rather than direct your frustration and anger at Maui's officials (it will do no good), direct it at ARDA/ROC. Their talk is cheap.
> Let ARDA know directly that YOU expect them to legally challenge the basis of the property tax in court.
> ARDA/ROC needs to feel the heat. Without it, they will politically posture like everyone else.
> They will encourage a letter writing campaign (the disposition of which will be the recycle bin). They will attend the budget hearings, submit a formal statement opposing the budget, and even imply possible litigation.
> But, just like the TAT increase, they will accept a lower increase as reason to not litigate. Unless they are inundated with letters and calls from thousands of timeshare owners demanding it.
> IMO, it is past time for ARDA/ROC to truly represent the interests of dues paying timeshare owners.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If most timeshare owners showed some financial restraint and Mr. Arakawa's band aid budget attempt failed what do you think would happen at the next election? You guessed it! We may have a new compentent County Mayor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I disagree with you here. You give entirely too much credit to the Maui electorate. They have already bought into the propaganda. Do you really think they understand the County's  source and use of funds? Or care?
> Their beloved officials have identified the problem for them.
> Lo and behold, the solution does not impact the bill they get in the mail. End of story.
> 
> Should Maui's financial situation worsen as a result of this short term thinking, so much more blame to direct at the straw man. Not only will Maui's officials not be blamed, they will be given more support for defending resident pocketbooks.
> The voting public deserves the government it gets. Unfortunately, in this instance, timeshare owners are the  discriminated class on Maui. Fear and loathing has always worked this way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't appreciate being asked to carry an unfair amount of the tax burden and thats why I am voting against the County government with my $$$$ this year!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good for you! No one likes being abused.
> But, spend less because it may be financially prudent to do so. When you return home, no one on Maui will know what you did not spend on the local economy unless you make a point to stop in on every retailer and service provider and tell them why you are not a customer.
> Of course, this may give rise to a few heated political discussions that will not further the enjoyment of your vacation.
> Raising the volume of the rhetoric on Maui will only serve to further polarize the camps. That can work where both sides have a vote, but does nothing constructive when one side can't vote. It only fuels the opposition.
> 
> You are absolutely correct, IMO. A legal challenge is the only viable option.
> Now, how to make that happen?
Click to expand...


----------



## work2travel

Thank you Fred.  I agree with most of your points.  I am of the belief that in today's world, indiscriminantly of location, "money talks" and every small contribution can cumulatively make an impact in political arenas too, just like in any other business area.  Even when the electorate is not budget savvy or cares where the money comes from, IMO at the end it all really comes down to impacts on one's wallet. And when your supporters/electorate stop contributing funds to your campaign and/or voting for you because you failed to live up to your promises of  not impacting their wallets, (due to reduced timeshare owners' spending and property value decreases which also translate in tax resource decreases) it will pain ego-driven politicians where it hurts them the most - in their political career.  

I suspect individual timeshare owners tuned in to the proposed tax increase will react, in a way that fits their lifestyle, financial means, personality, and drive to silently or more vocally address the issue and its impacts on them.  Some can/will do more, some less, some nothing.  Personally, doing nothing, is accepting defeat and casting a vote of confidence for Mr. Arakawa's discriminatory tax plan.  I won't do that.

I recognize that some actions may be more effective than others, but I would encourage everyone to contribute  their part, in any way they can, and feel most comfortable.   There is always more than just one solution to a problem or to make a difference, even if the difference simply ends up being a 0 sum loss on your personal bank account, based on your fiscally prudent vacation spending that you have absolute and ultimate control over.


----------



## Fredm

> Personally, doing nothing, is accepting defeat and casting a vote of confidence for Mr. Arakawa's discriminatory tax plan.  I won't do that.



Huzzah!



> I recognize that some actions may be more effective than others, but I would encourage everyone to contribute  their part, in any way they can, and feel most comfortable.



No argument there.
Activism (within legal bounds) in pursuit of a just cause is a beautiful thing.

Voting with your feet and wallet may perhaps have some long term affect on Maui voting patterns. Worth doing for its own sake. Especially if it makes you feel better, and less powerless.

Contact ARDA/ROC. Demand that they litigate. Or be the lead organizer of HOA sponsored litigation.  Every timeshare owner can easily do this without cost or effort.
This issue goes to court, or goes nowhere.


----------



## Westin5Star

jarta said:


> 5Star,   ...   Why don't you just go somewhere other than Maui and spend your money?  There are terrific places all over the world.
> 
> I doubt Mr. Arakawa cares what you, I and other timeshare owners think.  We don't vote in Maui.  So, we don't count.



Jarta,

I do go many other places than just Maui.  I prefer tropical locations that require less than 7 hours of travel.  From Tahoe / SoCal, that leaves me with Bahamas, Carribean, Central America, and Hawaii.  I love Fiji, Bora Bora, etc. but I just don't enjoy traveling that far.  I do travel about once a month to somewhere tropical and I do like variety.  My favorite spots are the warm turquoise waters of Bahamas, VIs, Mexican Riviera, Turks and Caicos, St. Lucia, St. Maarten, Caymans, etc. but I do like the variety of Hawaii at times.  I also love my OFD unit in Maui.  

Mr. Arakawa may not care what we think right now, however, he could change his tune in the future.  If we TS owners could make a small dent (5% or so) in tourist money not coming in, his citizens might demand that he care.  I will be sure to share with my reduce spending intent with the Maui residents that I interact with next year and the reasons for it.  If enough of us do this, the word will spread.  Maui's population is not that big and the close knit community does talk a lot amoungst themselves.  

With all that said, we are still going to have a great vacation in Maui next time.  I will actually save some money on the trip which I will probably just spend in another country on a future visit.  If or when Maui decides to wake up and treat TS owners fairly then I will resume my normal tourist spending habits there.


----------



## GregT

*Email*

This is the email that I sent on March 30th to all of the members of the council and to the mayor.   Only response was from someone's assistant, inviting me to attend the meetings (and sending me a meeting schedule)


From: Greg Tibbitts 
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 9:53 AM
To: 'danny.mateo@mauicounty.us'; 'joseph.pontanilla@mauicounty.us'; 'robert.carroll@mauicounty.us'; 'elle.cochran@mauicounty.us'; 'donald.couch@mauicounty.us'; 'michael.victorino@mauicounty.us'; 'mike.white@mauicounty.us'; 'alan.arakawa@mauicounty.us'; 'riki.hokama@mauicounty.us'; 'gladys.baisa@mauicounty.us'
Subject: Proposed timeshare property tax

Dear Sir:

I understand that Maui County is considering raising the property tax rate for timeshare owners, that would result in an increased property tax payment (versus simply to offset decreasing property valuations).   I own two timeshare interests there and have been traveling annually to Maui since 2000 and hope to return for many years to come.  Over the last 11 years, I’ve brought 37 different groups of people with me, either families or couples, who either stayed as our guests in our property or rented their own accommodations.   

In 2011, I am bringing my own guests and there are four other families who are also coming the same week (and have coordinated their travel with mine – as my travel plan is the “anchor”).  Two are staying at the Kaanapali Alii (where they rent from an owner), one will be staying in the Westin hotel on Kaanapali, and one is renting directly from a different timeshare owner at the Marriott Maui Ocean Club.   My friends coordinate their travel with my fixed timeshare week, and this is the fourth year in a row that we have done this.     

On our annual trips, we contribute significantly to the local economy through our shopping trips and meals at local restaurants.   However, timeshare owners are already under significant pressure from rising maintenance fees and higher airplane tickets and an additional tax increase may cause significant further financial burden, and may cause significant harm to the Maui timeshare industry.    

Please do not support the proposed increase in property tax rates from $14 (per $1,000 valuation) to $19 (per $1,000 valuation).  The current valuation rates already exceed all other classes of real estate and the resulting increase in payments of $100 - $200 per week may cause many of our fellow timeshare owners to default on their obligations, which would hurt all parties.   The increasing tax burden of $100-$200 per week will also impact the ability of your timeshare visitor to support the local economy, who have shown loyalty to Maui and wish to return every year.

I am happy to discuss further as you may request, thank you.

Greg Tibbitts


----------



## TUGBrian

If it hasnt been mentioned before, this is one of the main "kudos" that ARDA and ARDA-ROC have been patting themselves on the back for PREVENTING in the past few years.

I would be screaming bloody murder to both these organizations about this proposal, especially if you have been voluntarily checking the box to "donate" the few dollars of your maintenance fees to ARDA / ARDA-ROC every year!


----------



## curtbrown

As a fellow timeshare owner I can relate to the problem with the increase in timeshare property taxes.  I've always thought that Maui's approach to balancing their fiscal woes is out in left field.  They forget that after 9/11, and at the bottom of the recession, when most tourists we staying on the mainland to spend their vacation dollars, it was the timeshare owners who kept the local businesses afloat.  What short memories thy have...!!!

The Mayor of Maui is actually saying that while there is an increase in the TS tax rate, he says the higher rate is offset by lower assessed property values.  He's saying it will be not be a net increase, if you can believe that.  http://mauinews.com/page/content.detail/id/547817/Time-share-tax-plan-a-concern-to---.html

As our timeshares aren't in Maui, the increase in TS taxes doesn't affect us directly.  However, we do own a full ownership condo in a very new condo resort on Ka'anapali, and while our resort/hotel property taxes (proposed increase to $9.30 per $1,000.00) aren't as high as the TS rates, they are still pretty high when compared to owner occupied dwellings.  Since we rent our condo out through a property manager, the tax burden (as well as all of the overhead) is passed on to our guests.  And in addition to the included property taxes, we have to charge them an additional 13.416% of the rental fee for State & Local taxes.  So, for a one week rental in non-holiday winter months, in addition to the property tax that is covered in the rental fee, they pay more than $437.00 in additional hotel taxes.  

So the County's not only gouging TS owners, they're taking advantage of ALL tourists.

P.S. - These taxes are in addition to the Airport Tax, the Rental Car Tax, excessive parking fees in public lots, etc... that all tourists (TS or not) pay.  Unfortunately, it's my opinion that the voters in Hawaii (and on Maui in particular) have the opinion that the tourists coming to Hawaii have a lot of money and if they can afford to vacation here, they should pay the lion's share of the expenses.  What they forget is that most of their livelihoods are supported by the tourist industry in one way or another and once they drive the tourists away, they'll be in desperate shape. To me it appears they're out to kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

Just my $0.02

Curt


----------



## Fredm

curtbrown said:


> The Mayor of Maui is actually saying that while there is an increase in the TS tax rate, he says the higher rate is offset by lower assessed property values.  He's saying it will be not be a net increase, if you can believe that.  [/URL]



The proposed Maui County budget actually projects a ~3.6mm decrease in property tax revenues (from all property classes), compared to the prior year. This is a 1.7% decrease. 
Revenue breakdown by property class is not provided. 
However, overall, property valuations were budgeted to be ~13% lower than last year. 
This strongly suggests that a 40% increase of the timeshare tax rate disproportionately carries the shortfall.  

A couple of points to keep in mind:
This in no way reflects what the timeshare revenue portion will be, given a 19.6 tax rate.
More importantly, it should not matter. 
A tax rate 700-1000% higher than owner occupied residential is still arbitrary and discriminatory. 
Should timeshare owners be happy about this if taxes increase by less than 40%?

In reading the interesting budget narrative, Maui County is  concerned that State politics may affect its share of the State TAT. 
It also appears that Maui is cognizant of the questionable constitutional legality of charging timeshare owners a TAT for owner occupancies. 
Oh, to be fly on the wall at those closed budget sessions!


----------



## GregT

Fredm said:


> In reading the interesting budget narrative, Maui County is  concerned that State politics may affect its share of the State TAT.
> It also appears that Maui is cognizant of the questionable constitutional legality of charging timeshare owners a TAT for owner occupancies.



Fred,

I did see the first part in the budget detail, but I missed the second part -- can you point me where to look?

Thanks!

Greg


----------



## jarta

Fred,   ...   You are completely right.  The 13% reduction in values would give the opportunity for taxes to go down.  But, what Maui County gives away to all taxpayers in adjusted values it then takes back in taxes from a targeted class.  

Partially?  Mostly?  All taken back?  Even if it is left alone, it shouldn't matter since the Maui County rate system is far more discriminatory and punitive than is rationally justifiable.

All the tax policy factors should be taken into account in the determination of market value and a uniform rate applied to all classes.  But, that's probably far too complex a notion for the Maui County board to grasp (or, maybe, admit).

Maui County would rather continue the hydraulic shell game to fund its revenue needs and hope nobody who votes will realize or care what is actually happening.

However, blaming ARDA for what Maui is doing is unfair.  Also, IMO, ARDA is the only way to beat down this taxing scheme.  Individual timeshare taxpayers and, even, individual resorts will be too disorganized and under-funded to be effective.  You need an umbrella organization to add _gravitas_, organization and funding to the fight.   ...   eom


----------



## Fredm

GregT said:


> Fred,
> 
> I did see the first part in the budget detail, but I missed the second part -- can you point me where to look?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Greg



Greg.

I get an Adobe download error on Firefox with this document. It shut me down. 
However, here is the document link for your reading pleasure.


----------



## Fredm

jarta said:


> Fred,   ...   You are completely right.  The 13% reduction in values would give the opportunity for taxes to go down.  But, what Maui County gives away to all taxpayers in adjusted values it then takes back in taxes from a targeted class.
> 
> Partially?  Mostly?  All taken back?  Even if it is left alone, it shouldn't matter since the Maui County rate system is far more discriminatory and punitive than is rationally justifiable.
> 
> All the tax policy factors should be taken into account in the determination of market value and a uniform rate applied to all classes.  But, that's probably far too complex a notion for the Maui County board to grasp (or, maybe, admit).
> 
> Maui County would rather continue the hydraulic shell game to fund its revenue needs and hope nobody who votes will realize or care what is actually happening.
> 
> However,* blaming ARDA for what Maui is doing is unfair.  Also, IMO, ARDA is the only way to beat down this taxing scheme.  Individual timeshare taxpayers and, even, individual resorts will be too disorganized and under-funded to be effective.  You need an umbrella organization to add gravitas, organization and funding to the fight. *  ...   eom



Jarta, I am not blaming ARDA for Maui's tax policies. Maui takes 100% of the weight. (well.. not quite 100%. They have been encouraged by passive objections in the past). 

I am strongly suggesting that it is time ARDA/ROC stop being so concerned  about harmonious relations with Maui County, and stand up for what their charter advocates. Note I said the ROC (Resort Owners Coalition).

I completely agree with you. They are the best and most logical organizer of such a challenge. Now, to encourage them to actually do it!


----------



## jarta

Fred,   ...   "If it hasnt been mentioned before, this is one of the main "kudos" that ARDA and ARDA-ROC have been patting themselves on the back for PREVENTING in the past few years.

I would be screaming bloody murder to both these organizations about this proposal, especially if you have been voluntarily checking the box to "donate" the few dollars of your maintenance fees to ARDA / ARDA-ROC every year!"

My comment was directed to the above vitriol directed at ARDA and ARDA-ROC.  They are being blamed for a situation that is far beyond their power to prevent by mere negotiation.  

Their earlier negotiations (wimpy or not) prevented further discriminatory action until the recession settled in and more revenue was needed to cover ever increasing costs of government and looming revenue losses due to a collapse of the real estate market/tax base.  IMO, this situation will now only be cured by judicial intervention.  Maui County has too much invested in a discriminatory and punitive rate system to agree to back off or change it.   ...   eom


----------



## Syed

Following is a petition letter I drafted, which some people have signed and emailed to the Mayor.
 Feel free to use it, revise it or write your own and email it to the Mayor and Council members. 

Let me know if you have suggestions of any other websites I could put this up. Every bit helps!

I will be attending the meeeting this coming week and intend to raise my concerns. Will let you know what happens

Aloha Mayor Arakawa:

I am a time share owner on Maui and  am writing to you to express my concern about your proposed time share tax rate which increases the rate from $14.00 to $19.60 per one thousand assessed values.  

While we understand that the County of Maui has financial problems it appears that time shares are being unfairly targeted via this significant increase.  I would appreciate if you could share with me the rationale for the proposed time share property tax increase being so much higher than the proposed increases for any other type of property.

There are several important factors that should be considered in determining the time share rate:

* Time share owners are regular and recurring visitors to Maui with most spending from two weeks to several months per year in Maui.  Unlike hotel visitors, time share owners do not have to be recruited by either the tourism associations or the hotels. Time share owners stay in Maui for longer than hotel guests. For many visitors to Maui it is a once-in-a-lifetime event.  Not so for time share owners.

* Time share owners have bought deeded property and have invested significant amounts of money to purchase their units.  They have invested in Maui!!

* Time share owners spend a great deal of money in Maui.  This spending includes rental cars, gas, groceries, restaurant meals, retail stores, entertainment, tours, medical services, and a variety of other products/services.  All of these generate sales tax revenues and jobs for local people. We a are not a burden on the schools, police and fire department etc.

* The time share resorts employ thousands of people who live in the community.  The maintenance fees paid by the time share owners go to pay these salaries and purchase products and services needed to maintain the property.

Is a time share owner a renter who pays a Transient Accommodation Tax or a home owner who pays property taxes?   Currently we are being taxed as both.  How can this be?  We are one or the other.

I hope that you and the other elected officials will consider these factors as you finalize your tax revenue plans.

Mahalo,


----------



## dougp26364

TUGBrian said:


> If it hasnt been mentioned before, this is one of the main "kudos" that ARDA and ARDA-ROC have been patting themselves on the back for PREVENTING in the past few years.
> 
> I would be screaming bloody murder to both these organizations about this proposal, especially if you have been voluntarily checking the box to "donate" the few dollars of your maintenance fees to ARDA / ARDA-ROC every year!





This is the reason we don't support ARDA. The D stands for Developers. It's not an association for *O*wners. Unless owners needs are the same as developers needs, it's worthless to owners.


----------



## work2travel

Thank you Syed for your time and effort in putting the petition letter together.  We now don't have any excuse to not have our voices heard. You have made it easy for all of us.  

Since Syed is doing a lot of the legwork for us in Maui, I 'd suggest that all Maui timeshare owners sign and email  the petition letter to the Mayor and also forward a copy to Syed.  I think having copies of our signed petition letters at hand would at least help Syed get an audience with government officials and resort CEOs.


----------



## Syed

work2travel said:


> Thank you Syed for your time and effort in putting the petition letter together.  We now don't have any excuse to not have our voices heard. You have made it easy for all of us.
> 
> Since Syed is doing a lot of the legwork for us in Maui, I 'd suggest that all Maui timeshare owners sign and email  the petition letter to the Mayor and also forward a copy to Syed.  I think having copies of our signed petition letters at hand would at least help Syed get an audience with government officials and resort CEOs.



Fax it to 808-878-3311 or email to Syed@advantagevacation.com


----------



## jarta

doug,   ...   "The D stands for Developers. It's not an association for *O*wners."

The D stands for Development.  The name of the association is the American Resort *Development* Association.

If a developer develops a resort, the developer builds a development.  Not to say that no developers are members of ARDA.  But many owners at resort developments are members of ARDA.  

Perhaps you would prefer an association like TUG to help out - but that association has done nothing, not even negotiating or writing a letter of support for its members, to help with the Maui County tax problem - despite its having a $15 per year membership fee instead of the $5 per year membership fee for being in ARDA.   ...   eom


----------



## SDKath

Syed said:


> Fax it to 808-878-3311 or email to Syed@advantagevacation.com



Very nice of you to take your time and help with this!  Katherine


----------



## Fredm

dougp26364 said:


> This is the reason we don't support ARDA. The D stands for Developers. It's not an association for *O*wners. Unless owners needs are the same as developers needs, it's worthless to owners.



Whatever. 

It costs nothing to send the ROC an email urging them to litigate this issue on behalf of timeshare owners.
They are the ONLY organization we have. 
R*O*C needs to feel the heat from its dues paying members and other timeshare owners.
The "*O*" in ROC is *O*wners. Resort Owners Coalition.

At some point development and owner interests converge.
All are being hit with untenable taxes. 

This matter goes to court or goes nowhere.

The way I see it there are three possible avenues to the courthouse.
1. ROC files suit.
2. An independent coalition (via a PAC) files suit.
3. A class action is filed.

Scratch 2 and 3. They require too much organization and money as a practical matter.  Unless orchestrated by option 1.
No matter how it is sliced timeshare owners need ROC involved.

ROC may not want to go down this road. But, owners will get a better reception from them than Maui County.
At least we share some common ground. Sooner or later our interests will converge.


----------



## Fredm

jarta said:


> IMO, this situation will now only be cured by judicial intervention.  Maui County has too much invested in a discriminatory and punitive rate system to agree to back off or change it.   ...   eom



I agree with that. 
The rest of it is howling at the wind.


----------



## work2travel

*More bad news for Hawaii timeshare owners*

http://www.arda.org/arda/government-affairs/issues.aspx?id=2441


 Quote
"After seeing the House of Representatives pass a 27.5% increase in transient accommodation taxes paid by timeshare owners, the Hawaii State Senate had seemingly stopped the measure by electing not hear the bill in committee.  However, the House Finance Committee, who had already passed the tax by a vote of 14-1, has introduced an amendment to SB 1186 (SB 1186 SD2)  to include the timeshare tax increase in an attempt to force the Senate to pass the measure.  The House Finance Committee released a notice on Friday, April 1, that the hearing for SB 1186 SD2  would take place on Monday, April 4, at 3:30 pm."


----------



## mistral

*Timeshare taxation*

Tombo has it exactly right. We are stuck with the properties, but we can fight back. This is the old premise of biting the hand that feeds you.

If Arda can't help, we must stop any and all unnecessary spending. Don't eat out, don't go to movies or shows or luaus, don't participate in any tours or entertainment, don't use the spas or beauty salons, rent the cheapest cars possible or use the shuttles instead, buy nothing in the stores that we don't absolutely have to buy, and let's see if they still find us unwelcome visitors.

Just enjoy the accomodation, the beaches, the sun, the sea and the good weather. Relax and live. 

Even if every timeshare owner gave the cause $10.00 it would amount to a few hours of legal fees and/or to place huge ads for this in the papers, both in Maui and on the mainland large cities. Hopefully one of us is knowledgeable enough to start a campaign.


----------



## qaRuss

*ARDA is involved*

Noting negative comments about ARDA in this discussion. The conclusion is inaccurate. 
ARDA is actively involved and a serious effort to lobby the politicals. All TS owners would have been subject to a huge increase in transient occupancy tax in Hawaii but ARDA has been vigorous in its' lobby to oppose. That lobby is occuring now. If there is an increase it will be minor. The lobby however may stil be successfull in fighting the proposed increase.
ARDA is well aware of the difficulty in dealing with Maui county as well. 
Your Hawaii TS association should be aware of the effort ARDA is mounting on your behalf. I would suggest you check with your Association to see if it is participating in ARDA's targeted effort. If not, it should be.
Russ


----------



## tabogna

gregb said:


> While the dramatic increase in taxes at Starwood resorts on Maui was big news here, and increased MF by large amounts, I did not hear much out of the Marriott camp.  Does anyone know what/if the Marriott TS experienced the dramatic increase in assessed value that we did?  If not, it would seem that would a fertile area for lawsuit.  That is, the county is not assessing all properties at fair market value.
> 
> So what has happened on the Marriott TS for MF and taxes?
> 
> Also, if they raise the millage rate, it would affect all TS on Maui, not just Starwood.  So there ought to be lots of support against this from the HOA's of all the other TS on the island.  Maybe a PAC funded by the HOAs from all the TS on Maui would be the best way to approach this.
> 
> Greg



My mother-in law owns  a 1 BR both at WKOR and Marriott Ocean Club.  Marriot did not take the hit that Westin did.  In fact, she wants us to purchase her Westin TS because the difference in assessments is substantial.  I'll try to gather the numbers and follow up.


----------



## paluamalia

*Timeshare and taxes..*

From March 31 Maui News

http://www.mauinews.com/page/content.detail/id/547817/Time-share-tax-plan-a-concern-to-industry.html

Seems to be conflicting information re: how much we really will pay.
In the town I own a house in they decreased the value by over $40,000 but the taxes went up by $300 for a year...., but my guess is we will pay more.

Here on Cape Cod the motels/hotels that converted to timeshare have cost the towns a bit of revenue, the hotels pay more in taxes.  All RE taxes across the board have increased here even though values have decreased, so Maui owners are not alone, many tourist areas are hurting.


----------



## clsmit

*Email from SVO received tonight*

Subject line: URGENT CALL TO ACTION Regarding Maui County Property Tax Rates

Dear Ocean Resort Villas Owner,

This is to inform you of the recent proposal by Maui County Mayor, Alan Arakawa, to significantly increase the property tax rate paid by timeshare owners and also to request your urgent assistance in voicing your concerns to the Mayor and County Council members. If passed, the new tax rate will take effect July 1, 2011. The Mayor's office insists the tax increase will be "revenue neutral"; however, the proposed increase for timeshare property is 40% which is more than double the increase for most other property classifications.

It appears Maui County has used fair market value in determining the 2011/2012 assessed value for the villas as indicated by a 12.3% decrease. In spite of this decrease, the proposed tax rate increase of 40% means owners will actually pay more in property taxes.

Your Board of Directors, Management Company, and American Resort Development Association-Resort Owners Coalition (ARDA-ROC) are working to defeat this proposed increase and we need your help as well. Please contact the Mayor's office and each member of the Maui County Council to let them know you oppose this increase. Please remember to be respectful and express your concerns in your own words. Email links are provided below. To learn more about this issue, you may visit the ARDA-ROC website here. You may also sign up for additional Hawaii legislative alerts from the ARDA-ROC home page. Hearings on this issue are scheduled for April 13, April 20 and May 5, so please act quickly!

We invite owners either visiting on island or residing in Maui County to attend any or all of the hearings to express your concerns in person. If you are not able to personally attend, please communicate your concerns via the email links provided below. Meeting dates and times are subject to change. Please call the phone number indicated below to confirm prior to attending. 

Budget and Finance Committee Hearings 
April 13 - 6:00 p.m. Lahaina Civic Center, Social Hall, 1840 Honoapiilani Hwy., Lahaina, HI (808) 270-7838 
April 20 - 9:00 a.m. Council Chamber, 200 S. High Street, Kalana O Maui Bldg, 8th Floor, Wailuku, HI (808) 270-7748 
County Council Meeting 
May 5 – 6:00 p.m. Council Chamber, 200 S. High Street, Kalana O Maui Bldg, 8th Floor, Wailuku, HI (808) 270-7748

Alan M. Arakawa, Mayor
Mayors.Office@co.maui.hi.us 
Danny A. Mateo, Council Chair
danny.mateo@mauicounty.us 
Joseph Pontanilla, Council-Vice Chair
joseph.pontanilla@mauicounty.us 
Gladys C. Baisa, Council Member
gladys.baisa@mauicounty.us 
Robert Carroll, Council Member
robert.carroll@mauicounty.us 
Elle Cochran, Council Member
elle.cochran@mauicounty.us 
Donald G. Couch, Jr., Council Member
don.couch@mauicounty.us 
G. Riki Hokama, Council Member
riki.hokama@mauicounty.us 
Michael P. Victorino, Council Member
michael.victorino@mauicounty.us 
Mike White, Council Member
mike.white@mauicounty.us 

Thank you for your support on this most urgent matter.


----------



## gumimat

*Hawaii taxes*

I recently visited Hawaii.  Like most states and municipalities, they are running MASSIVE deficits.  Compounding this is the recent disaster in Japan which has alredy substantially reduced tourism from Asia.   They are thinking of all kinds of ways to increase funding, even considering allowing Poker tournaments.  They did reject other forms of gambling.  We all have to wake up to the sad fact that all levels of Goverment are spending more money than they collect.   Timeshares are an easy target.  They wont be the last.


----------



## DeniseM

It only takes 5 minutes to send an email to every elected official on the list above.  You can compose a brief email and just copy and paste it to each person.  I'm sure you can come up with something better, but this is what I wrote:

_Timeshare owners have been Hawaii's bread and butter during times of depressed travel to Hawaii. 

Look at the Stats - Timeshare owners visit Hawaii even when the economy is depressed, in far higher numbers than hotel guests!

"The timeshare industry has already displayed that it is a resilient and consistent industry
post 9/11 posting only a *3.5%* decrease in the occupancy rate, while hotel occupancy rates
decreased by *17.85%*."

Don't punish Timeshare Owners for visiting Hawaii and supporting it with our dollars, by raising our property tax to a ridiculous level.

Denise M
Westin Ka'anapali Timeshare Owner_


----------



## sdgaskill1

*Tax increase proposal in Hawaii*

This sounds like a way to take care of the state's recently published budget problem. Hawaii is in the top 3 for state debt per person. It is estimated about $4200 per resident in Hawaii. That's why we sold our Hawaii timeshares. They love to tax in that state. Are there any timeshares in Wyoming and N. Dakota? They seem to be the only ones who can balance their budget. Sandra


----------



## ccwu

DeniseM said:


> It only takes 5 minutes to send an email to every elected official on the list above.  You can compose a brief email and just copy and paste it to each person.  I'm sure you can come up with something better, but this is what I wrote:
> 
> _Timeshare owners have been Hawaii's bread and butter during times of depressed travel to Hawaii.
> 
> Look at the Stats - Timeshare owners visit Hawaii even when the economy is depressed, in far higher numbers than hotel guests!
> 
> "The timeshare industry has already displayed that it is a resilient and consistent industry
> post 9/11 posting only a *3.5%* decrease in the occupancy rate, while hotel occupancy rates
> decreased by *17.85%*."
> 
> Don't punish Timeshare Owners for visiting Hawaii and supporting it with our dollars, by raising our property tax to a ridiculous level.
> 
> Denise M
> Westin Ka'anapali Timeshare Owner_



Thank you Denise,

This is what I just send to all council member coping your words:

Dear honorable Council Chair, Council vice Chair and Council Members:

Look at the Stats - Timeshare owners visit Hawaii even when the economy is depressed, in far higher numbers than hotel guests!

"The timeshare industry has already displayed that it is a resilient and consistent industry
post 9/11 posting only a 3.5% decrease in the occupancy rate, while hotel occupancy rates
decreased by 17.85%."

Don't punish Timeshare Owners for visiting Hawaii and supporting it with our dollars, by raising our property tax to a ridiculous level.

There are many resale timeshare owners, who bought the timeshare less than the maintenance fees and they may default and make the timeshare delinquent if the fees and taxes are going higher. It may make the timeshare industries crashing. My maintenance fee already grow more than 60% since I bought it four years ago. The value of my timeshare resale price dropped 80% or more.  While in New York, we do have alternatives for vacations in Caribbean and Europe.  Do not discourage us to return to Hawaii. We have to pay bigger airfares to get to Hawaii than Europe and Caribbean.  Once the maintenance fees and taxes reaches a level that it is more economical for us to go to elsewhere, we could forfeit our timeshare and not be loyal tourist to return to Hawaii.  I understand that Hawaii’s major industry is Tourism.  Just thinking what you may gradually lose of the resilient support of timeshare owners.  Your unfair tax to timeshare owners would be counterproductive to your economy.


----------



## pharmgirl

just sent this to all council members:

We own a Westin Kaanapali Timeshare in Maui.  Before buying these weeks when we visited Maui we traveled as a couple and stayed in hotels [Sheraton, Westin].  Since 2004, every year we now travel to Maui with between another 2 to 4 family or friends beside our selves.  So Maui is benefiting from our Timeshare use instead of hotels by having more people going to restaurants, activities, renting more than one car, etc.  We can easily sell or abandon this Timeshare now since maintenance costs and taxes are increasing dramatically.  Increasing taxes disproportionately on Timeshare owners leaves a bad impression – the opposite of Aloha spirit.  We can also go only to our Oahu timeshares in KoOlina and avoid Maui now that Maui’s governing group indicates they are targeting us.
Don't punish Timeshare Owners for visiting Hawaii and supporting it with our dollars, by raising our property tax and fees to a ridiculous level.

There are many resale timeshare owners, who bought the timeshare less than the maintenance fees and they may default and make the timeshare delinquent if the fees and taxes are going higher.Deliquency rates have increased substantially already.  It may make the timeshare industries crashing. My maintenance fee already doubled since I bought it. The value of my timeshare resale price dropped 80% or more. We live in New Jersey, we do have alternatives for vacations in Caribbean and Europe. Do not discourage us to return to Hawaii. We have to pay bigger airfares to get to Hawaii than Europe and Caribbean. Once the maintenance fees and taxes reache a level that it is more economical for us to go to elsewhere, we could forfeit our timeshare and not be loyal tourist to return to Hawaii. I understand that Hawaii’s major industry is Tourism. Just thinking what you may gradually lose of the resilient support of timeshare owners. Your unfair tax to timeshare owners would be counterproductive to your economy.
Sincerely


Timeshare owner in Maui  and Oahu


----------



## TUGBrian

Got this note from the ARDA-ROC people today:



> The Maui Council Committee on Budget and Finance initiated their review of the Mayor’s budget on March 30, with the Mayor insisting the increase in the timeshare property tax rate from $14.00 to $19.60 was “revenue neutral” as he believes this increase will be offset by the corresponding decrease in property values.
> 
> Read More: http://www.ardaroc.org/roc/legislative-issues/issues.aspx?id=2444


----------



## gravitar

*This is what I sent to the council members*

Good Day Council Members,

I have read how timeshare owners are described by the Mayor, and how we are undervalued and unwanted as a group. If you insist on treating me in this manner, I will have no choice but to:

Continue to visit Hawaii for two weeks each year, 1 week in Maui
Spend only the minimum required for food and beverage while in Maui, NO tours, NO events, NO dining out, No purchases to take back home.
I will transfer that spending to Kauai, and to Cancun, where I am a timeshare owner as well.
I will gather as much information as I can about how we are being treated unfairly and about how inaccurate the rhetoric the Mayor uses to describe us (timeshare owners) as a group is. I will make single page copies of this information and state how much i DID NOT spend in Maui this year as compared to years past, due to the unfair tax increase.
I will distribute this to every Maui business that I have done business with in the past along with other randomly selected merchants.
I will include information on how to contact members of the city council, in case they wish to complain.

Best Regards

I did not send this to the Mayor

I forwarded my sent email to the Maui Chamber


----------



## jarta

Rather than make it look like ARDA-ROC is satisfied with the Mayor's statement about revenue neutrality and won't be doing anything more by posting merely ADRA-ROC's repetition of the Mayor's obviously incorrect postion, why not add this from the same note you received from ARDA-ROC?

"ARDA-ROC, in conjunction with ARDA-Hawaii, has developed a strategy to oppose this tax, which includes attending and testifying at future meetings of the Council, with an emphasis on the April 13 Community Meeting in Lahaina Civic Center, where numerous timeshare owners, employees and developer representatives will meet with Council Members to voice their opposition to this or any tax increase on the timeshare industry.  ARDA-ROC is also gathering information from leading researchers in Hawaii and consulting with legal counsel in order to assess all possible challenges to this proposed tax increase."

Is further broadcasting/posting of the Mayor's position more important than publicizing what ARDA-ROC says it is doing to oppose it?

Is TUG taking any position and/or doing anything to help TUG members who own in Hawaii fight this tax?  If so, what?   ...   eom


----------



## kinupiaq

*Maui County Tax*

Hawaii County, whose Mayor Billy Kenoi, has publicly stated that the county government there is (fiscally) bigger than it can afford has taken a slightly different tack. County government has increased taxes on a class of property (like condos and timeshares) where property owners are not eligible to qualify as "homeowners". Tax rate for condo owners (read that part time residents) is $9.85 per $1,000 for land and property. Qualified 'Homeowners" (full time residents) pay $5.55 per $1,000.

The local chamber might be more interested if this was sold as biting the hand that feeds the economy of the islands, with a potential loss of tourism. The Islands are already suffering from a huge decline in tourists ..and their dollars.. due to the local economy. And now with the economy in Japan hurting due to the earthquake and tsunami, there will be fewer folks from that country coming to Hawaii.

If you are able to put together a group, be sure to include local residents who live on a different island, like Oahu, and use timeshares for out of town vacations. They are usually better able to understand the local politics.

Good luck.


----------



## GregT

jarta said:


> Is TUG taking any position and/or doing anything to help TUG members who own in Hawaii fight this tax?  If so, what?   ...   eom



Jarta,

With apologies, I don't really think its TUGs responsibility to take a position here -- we're a user's group, not a lobbying group or a political action committee?

I think TUG has accomplished its objective by providing the forum where the issue is highlighted, and now it is up to the interested parties to fight it?

I'm collecting email addresses at the moment and will be sending out an email to the dozen (or so) businesses that I've spent the most money at the last two years.   I'll cc: the entire Maui County Council on the email, and the mayor too.

I have no idea if it will help, but it will make me feel like I'm doing something.

Best,

Greg


----------



## fasha39

Does anyone have the name/email address for the GM of WKORV?

Thanks


----------



## fasha39

I've got Gregg Lundberg as of last year - anyone know if it's still accurate?


----------



## gravitar

That is still correct


----------



## TUGBrian

another update

http://www.ardaroc.org/roc/legislative-issues/issues.aspx?id=2441



> Issue Updates
> As expected, on April 4th, 2011, the House Finance Committee passed SB 1186 HD1 by a vote of 14-1 which included a 27.5% increase in taxes paid by timeshare owners.  The next step is for the bill to be heard on floor of the House of Representatives.  Assuming it passes the House, the bill will then be sent to the Senate where the measure will be assigned to a conference committee for consideration.  The purpose of the conference committee is to reconcile the differences between the House approved version of SB 1186 and the Senate approved version of SB 1186, as the two are not identical.  Generally speaking, a conference committee consists of two House members and two Senate members.  Please check back to www.ardaroc.org for updates and if you have not done so already, please sign up for legislative email alerts by clicking here.


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## TUGBrian

per the comment above, I merely get email updates about the issue, and whatever is highlighted in the email is what I quote when posting on the forum.

it isnt polite (nor would it make much sense) to post the entirety of the ARDA-ROC page linked in the above post on TUG...after all you can simply click it and read it all yourself.

It however doesnt suprise me that you developed a conspiracy theory out of thin air.


----------



## jarta

Out of thin air?

"If it hasnt been mentioned before, this is one of the main "kudos" that ARDA and ARDA-ROC have been patting themselves on the back for PREVENTING in the past few years.

I would be screaming bloody murder to both these organizations about this proposal, especially if you have been voluntarily checking the box to "donate" the few dollars of your maintenance fees to ARDA / ARDA-ROC every year!"


----------



## Kauai Kid

That proposed increase is 40% (forty percent) in this era of extremely low inflation.

I'm scheduled for two weeks at the Maui Schooner in June and will keep a detailed log of the monies I drop into Maui's economy and send it to the Mayor with a Mahalo note that he helped me make up my mind to dump the Maui timeshare--3 weeks.


Sterling


----------



## DavidnRobin

fasha39 said:


> I've got Gregg Lundberg as of last year - anyone know if it's still accurate?



"Lundberg, Gregg" <gregg.lundberg@westin.com>



Brian - try not to get sucked in - not worth the frustration...


----------



## fasha39

Alan M. Arakawa, Mayor
Mayors.Office@co.maui.hi.us 
Danny A. Mateo, Council Chair
danny.mateo@mauicounty.us 
Joseph Pontanilla, Council-Vice Chair
joseph.pontanilla@mauicounty.us 
Gladys C. Baisa, Council Member
gladys.baisa@mauicounty.us 
Robert Carroll, Council Member
robert.carroll@mauicounty.us 
Elle Cochran, Council Member
elle.cochran@mauicounty.us 
Donald G. Couch, Jr., Council Member
don.couch@mauicounty.us 
G. Riki Hokama, Council Member
riki.hokama@mauicounty.us 
Michael P. Victorino, Council Member
michael.victorino@mauicounty.us 
Mike White, Council Member
mike.white@mauicounty.us 

ok, just finished sending emails to six establishments we frequent while in Maui detailing our spending during our most recent trip (last week), suggesting we will eliminate and cc'd the above.  Also sent an individual email to each of the above citing some of the bullet points from the ARDA-ROC.  Has anyone received a response to their similar efforts?


----------



## work2travel

I 've received responses from two County Council members acknowledging receipt of my letters of opposition and thanking me for sharing my point of view. Nothing extensive or substantive, but at least a polite acknowledgement at this point.


----------



## aeroflygirl

*Email Addresses for Maui Chamber and Visitors Bureau*

Maui Chamber of Commerce
info@mauichamber.com

Maui Visitor Bureau
info@visitmaui.com


The Mission of the Maui Chamber of Commerce is to advance and promote a healthy economic environment for business: to advocate responsive government and quality education, while preserving Maui's unique community characteristics. 


Encourage business and community prosperity by promoting economic programs designed to strengthen and enhance the financial opportunities for all businesses within the county. 
Serve as an effective non-partisan, non-sectarian voice for business on legislative, business, social, governmental and community issues affecting Maui.. 
Identify and overcome obstacles that are detrimental to the business climate and community growth.
Support civic, social and cultural programs designed to increase the functional and aesthetic values of the community. 
Promote life long learning.


----------



## Syed

I testified before of the Maui County Council in Kihei a few hours ago. I was the only one testifying about the timeshare tax matter.

It is on youtube. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scZ81UIC4dM


----------



## fasha39

Thank you for fighting this Syed - can you share what reaction, if any, there was to your passionate testimony?


----------



## jarta

For those wishing to contact members of the Maui County Council:

http://www.co.maui.hi.us/documents/Council Services/2011 Maui County Council Calendar.PDF

...   eom


----------



## LisaRex

Syed,

Thank you for your efforts on our behalf.  I watched the video and you presented a very valid argument against the increase.  $100 a day in property taxes.  Yippee.


----------



## YYJMSP

*Just got a pre-recorded phone message from SVO*

It looks like they're calling now, pretty much summarizing what was in the multiple emails we received from SVO the other day to please contact the mayor, the rest of the council, etc...


----------



## alohakevin

*prop tax*

I sent this off to all the council members we need to keep pushing.I called a local to get their input and they seem to think the council may listen if there is enough heat. Syed your testimony was awesome thankyou,they had to have heard that.

Honorable Sir or Madam,
> 
> Upon reviewing comments made by the council in regards to timeshare properties it is disturbing to see the indignation with which the council views timeshare owners. In light of recent developments calling for an increase in tax rates on timeshare it is abundantly clear the council has a short sided understanding of the impact "owners" have on the local economy. Where is the so called Aloha spirit on Maui. As it is now we pay 14.00/1000 assessed compared to 8.30/1000 for hotel and 2.50/1000 for residential. Now you are demanding we pay over 19.00/1000 and you feel justified in doing so because we don't reside there and are an easy target. As with every other state, budgets are tight but you can't expect one segment of the population to carry the load. If your fiscal house is not in order how do you honestly feel justified in making me responsible for bailing you out? I love traveling to Hawaii but I won't hesitate to go elsewhere where my patronage is appreciated. This is not a captive resource. The bottom line is if taxes continue to go up I will be forced to quit paying any tax all together and look elsewhere for travel. I will also be taking the money I spend on golf, car rentals, restaurants, massages, tours, shopping, inter-island flights, gas tax, and transient tax with me.
> This is a matter of economics and the costs now are pushing marginal return as a consumer. Timeshare owners have been a loyal and consistent  resource for Maui even in tough times please don't force us to go elsewhere.
> Your attention to this matter is much appreciated.
> 
> Mahalo
> 
> >


----------



## siesta

unfortunately, with the recent and expected additional decrease in tourism in Hawaii due to the current effect on the Japanese economy, as well as the "nuclear threat", I would expect this short-sighted committee to proceed with the tax hikes since their budget is now facing more dire circumstances. This should begin to get interesting.


----------



## LisaRex

Here's my letter:

Dear esteemed Mayor and Council,

It is with dismay that I read of the proposal to increase the timeshare property tax from its current rate of 14/1000 to an even higher rate of 19.6/1000.  I have been visiting Maui since 2004 and have been a timeshare owner since 2007.  I am astounded that you could, in good conscience, target one particular class of tourist -- timeshare owners --  to bear the brunt of your tax deficit pain.  We already pay 7 times what resident homeowners pay.  Yet, when met with another gap, instead of sharing the pain equally among all property owners, you once again single out timeshare owners.  Why? To target one class of taxpayer, especially those without voting rights, is unfair.  But it is especially unfair when you realize that the people who enjoy the most generous tax rate in the county are the biggest consumers of the services funded by these taxes!

Let me remind you that when the global economy soured, timeshare owners returned to the island and supported your economy, even as hotel guests abandoned you.  When oil prices shot up,  it is timeshare owners who paid the $1000 price tag, because we had a vested interest in our properties.  In good times and bad, we ate in the restaurants, shopped local merchants, bought local jewelry and crafts, and enjoyed activities owned by local businessmen.  In addition, we have been huge ambassadors for Maui, enthusiastically recommending it to patrons on travel boards.  Most importantly, by sharing our villas with family and friends, we introduced a whole new group of tourists to Maui – people who might never have chosen your island were it not for our generosity.  For those referrals, Hawaii didn’t have to spend one single marketing dollar. 

Since 2004, I have witnessed taxes skyrocketing.  Because I loved Maui, I accepted past increases with a certain amount of reluctant grace.  No longer.  Should the proposed TAT and property tax increase measures pass, you will have effectively taxed me off of your island.  I work too hard to hand over $750 in taxes for a one-week stay.  Instead, I’ll either sell my Maui timeshare or exchange it to another destination where the local authorities don’t treat guests as bottomless pockets.  There are simply too many glorious places in the world that will welcome me with open arms to endure that level of disrespect. 


Yours truly,



Lisa XXXXXX
Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas North owner


----------



## alotofgolf

sent my letters to everyone listed and added the vacation/tourism groups and the Maui Chamber of Com.

also...sent email to ROC with no response and to the three SVO executives that serve on ARDA board...no response from them yet either

I think ARDA/ROC needs to represent us with a much stronger voice or we don't need to support them any longer


----------



## jarta

"I accepted past increases with a certain amount of reluctant grace."

Huh!  Let's hope the Mayor doesn't read TUG posts.  He wouldn't find a lot of reluctant graceful acceptance.

But, the *existing* Maui discriminatory rate scheme is, IMO, far past constitutional boundaries of rationality.  As Fred has pointed out, the Hawaii studies don't support the reasons given as the justification for the disparity of treatment.   ...   eom


----------



## jarta

Is it better for ARDA-ROC to be using its resources responding to every person (member or non-member) who sends it an email or getting ready for the hearing later this month?

Your conclusion that you, personally, haven't gotten a response means that ARDA-ROC hasn't been addressing the problem vigorously enough is a little presumptuous given the notices sent out by ARDA-ROC that were posted here about what they are doing and will do.

ARDA-ROC is not the enemy.  Starwood, Marriott, other developers and the various timeshare resorts are not the enemy.  It's the Mayor and the Maui County Council.   ...   eom


----------



## alotofgolf

a form response to donating members is the least effort they should be able to muster

so I am not sure about ARDA/ROC...no, they are not the "enemy" but I am not sure who they really represent and where they get their marching orders from

if they don't, or are unwilling to, respond to donating members then I am led to think they are really just an extension of, and lobby firm for,  the developers....until they prove me wrong that is my position


----------



## GregT

Here is my latest letter....howling in the wind?  CC:d the entire County Council, the Chamber of Commerce, the tourism bureau and the Maui newspaper.

Warning:  long letter.   

From: Greg Tibbitts 
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 9:28 PM
To: 'ckinkade@sailtrilogy.com'; 'kim@teralani.net'; 'flymaui@ufoparasail.net'; 'hulajd@aol.com'; 'lahainamgr@cheeseburgerland.com'; 'whalersvillage@nahoku.com'; 'bill@honoluasurf.com'; 'scotty.owens@tbahama.com'; 'scorpuel@hotmail.com'; 'info@activityzonemaui.com'
Cc: 'danny.mateo@mauicounty.us'; 'joseph.pontanilla@mauicounty.us'; 'robert.carroll@mauicounty.us'; 'elle.cochran@mauicounty.us'; 'donald.couch@mauicounty.us'; 'michael.victorino@mauicounty.us'; 'mike.white@mauicounty.us'; 'alan.arakawa@mauicounty.us'; 'riki.hokama@mauicounty.us'; 'gladys.baisa@mauicounty.us'; 'info@mauichamber.com'; 'info@visitmaui.com'; 'joe@mauichamber.com'; 'pamela@mauichamber.com'; 'citydesk@mauinews.com'
Subject: New local taxes will harm your customer base


Dear Owner or General Manager of:                                                       

               ABC Stores
                Cheeseburger in Paradise
Cool Cat
Crazy Shirts
Honolua Surf
Lahaina Waterski
Leilani’s
Maui Built (sent via facsimile)
Maui Dive Shop
Na Hoku
Reefdancer
Swarovski
Teralani
Trilogy
Tommy Bahama
UFO Parasail

Thank you all -- I’ve purchased many products or excursions from your business over the last couple of years and I’ve loved each and every one of them.   Hawaii, and Maui in particular, has been a truly special place for my family since we began our annual visits in 2000.   

I am writing to you because the Maui County Council is considering a dramatic tax rate increase for timeshare owners like me that will directly impact our ability to visit Maui and support businesses such as yours.     I would much rather continue to patronize local businesses (as I have for years) instead of paying ridiculously high property taxes.  

My property taxes have already tripled since 2009, and now the Maui County Council is considering increasing my timeshare tax rate by another 35%.    For 2011, I’m currently paying over $1,000 in property taxes, general taxes and transient occupancy taxes for my two timeshare weeks.   

I’d rather continue to spend money in your business than spend money on more taxes.  Timeshare owners already pay a substantially higher property tax rate (14%) than any other class of real estate – higher than homes (2.5%), hotels (8.3%), apartment buildings (5%), commercial properties (6.25%) , higher than everything.  And the tax rate is now proposed to go to 19.6%?????  

ABC – I love buying your T-shirts and I can always use more.  Thanks also for having those last minute items that I seem to forget to pack.

Cheeseburger in Paradise – What a special place – I’ve probably been there 18 times since 2000 -- I remember when there wasn’t a sailboat on the reef.   I remember when Brooks Maguire was just getting started.

Cool Cat – wow you really do make excellent burgers – giving C in P very stiff competition

Crazy Shirts – love the shirts – some of my t-shirt purchases are Volcano/Big Island themed…but I bought them in Maui…

Honolua Surf -- you guys have good clothes too – and my favorite flip flops are holding up strong 

Lahaina Waterski – With apologies, Cassie didn’t love the banana boat so we probably won’t be back, but the rest of us had a great time

Leilani’s – wonderful lunches after shopping/snorkeling – thank you.  We like Duke’s too.

Maui Built – I must have 20+ shirts (long and short sleeve), and Maui Built clothing is my traditional gift to my guests as a momento – so there is Maui Built stuff being worn proudly in San Diego (lots of it), Sacramento, Santa Maria, South Bend, Colorado Springs, Albuquerque, Miami, New York and Seattle.  It is possible that it has also been worn in Afghanistan.  My son also loves the camouflage backpack.

Maui Dive Shop – Bought reef shoes when Jack stepped on a shark toy and cut his foot badly (and bought a t-shirt for me while there) – thanks!

Na Hoku – the classic flip flop pendants for the three ladies in my life -- these are my daughters’ favorite pendants (but my wife prefers something we bought in St. Thomas.  It is very pretty, you would approve)

Reefdancer – We’ve had two great trips with you – a terrific way to let younger kids see the underwater world if they’re not yet snorkelers. 

Swarovski – Cassie loves the crystal bird – not sure if its Hawaiian, but she loves it

Teralani – I thought Molokini was the best until you took me to Honolua Bay – now not so sure!

Trilogy – 5 trips since my first Maui visit in 1998 (my visitors often  want to go to Molokini).  I still have my original 1998 t-shirt (it’s holding up better than the 2009 t-shirt?  New vendor?)

Tommy Bahama – my wife is always beautiful, but she sure looks great in your dresses (full disclosure: some were purchased at Queens Market in Waikoloa)

UFO Parasail – we’ve been twice with you – first in 2008, when it was still possible to take up a 3 year old with you  – I have a precious video taken while in the parasail with Jack.   He thought he could smell a puma.  Yes.  Smell a puma.   Personally, I could not smell the puma.

Not included on this email are the wonderful kiosks at Kalama Village marketplace, the nice ladies at the Nail Care Center, the Dairy Queen, and of course, the Waterfront Restaurant, because up until 2007, we stayed primarily in Kihei.  We still visit Kihei (and these businesses) often because of our many fond memories.   I also didn’t include the taxi cab that drives us to/from the Waterfront and Kaanapali.  But these are all businesses that we support and want to continue supporting.

My Maui  friends, please contact the Council (they are cc:’d here) and ask them not to excessively tax your recurring loyal customers who have supported Maui through good times and bad.     Unfortunately, we can’t trust that there will be an offsetting property tax value decrease (this is what the mayor is saying to justify the 35% increase in rate) as we’ve had to fight the existing excessively high valuations since our property taxes have almost tripled during these difficult economic times ($161 in 2009, $388 in 2010, $408 in 2011, just for property taxes).  

A 35% tax rate increase could translate into approximately $300 in additional taxes that I, and my fellow non-voting timeshare owners, would be forced to pay.   That would definitely impact our spending patterns on our future Maui trips, and would mean a combination of less meals, less excursions, less clothes, less jewelry, less gifts.  Personally, this would  likely result in a much greater reduction in spending than $300 since I’d simply eliminate a shopping trip or an excursion for my family of 5 (and our guests).    I’d rather spend that money supporting a local business – it’s better for both of us.

I thank you for the many fine memories we have had together and I hope they continue for years to come.   

Mahalo,

Greg Tibbitts


----------



## Fredm

alotofgolf said:


> a form response to donating members is the least effort they should be able to muster
> 
> so I am not sure about ARDA/ROC...no, they are not the "enemy" but I am not sure who they really represent and where they get their marching orders from
> 
> if they don't, or are unwilling to, respond to donating members then I am led to think they are really just an extension of, and lobby firm for,  the developers....until they prove me wrong that is my position



Folks, let's not go down this road.

The fact of the matter is that it is too easy to misdirect effort and energy.
Letters to Maui County Council can't hurt. But, they will not do much good, IMO.  It's too late for that. This is a done deal, with perhaps minor adjustment.

The real question is what will happen after the tax proposal is adopted? 
I will not repeat my prior posts here. Except to say that a legal challenge is appropriate and necessary. 
The *only* organization capable of leading that challenge is ARDA/ROC. 
Don't worry if you do not get a timely acknowledgment of an email. The important thing is that you sent it. ROC needs to get thousands of them. 
The best that can be hoped for is they will cumulatively provide encouragement for ROC to do what they should under the circumstances.


----------



## alotofgolf

I don't know what "road" you are talking about...but my position seems to be the same as yours

additionally, if they don't have a form response to members I wonder how they will pursue our interests and who they really represent

if they "do nothing" or "roll over" an aggressive DO NOT DONATE campaign should begin...let the developers fund it because that would be proof who directs and who benefits from their actions


----------



## Fredm

alotofgolf said:


> I don't know what "road" you are talking about...but my position seems to be the same as yours
> 
> additionally, if they don't have a form response to members I wonder how they will pursue our interests and who they really represent
> 
> if they "do nothing" or "roll over" *an aggressive DO NOT DONATE campaign should begin..*.let the developers fund it because that would be proof who directs and who benefits from their actions



I am sorry. The "road" was bickering. Not directed at you, but the direction this was going. One fight at a time. Right now we have a common enemy, Maui County. 

I intended my comments to encourage communication with ARDA/ROC in support of legal action. You have already done so. Good for you! That is what owners should be aggressively campaigning for at the moment, IMO.

I will not judge ARDA/ROC by how quickly (if ever) they respond to such an email. I will judge them on what their actions are in this matter. So far, it remains to be seen. Though past performance has not been encouraging. 
I have already opined that they will not seriously pursue legal action. I want to be proven wrong. Plenty of time to discuss what's wrong with ARDA if I am not.


----------



## LisaRex

jarta said:


> Huh!  Let's hope the Mayor doesn't read TUG posts.  He wouldn't find a lot of reluctant graceful acceptance.



Yes, I complain about the property taxes on a timeshare user group.  But when I get my bill, I pay it on time. I don't picket.  I don't mount letter writing campaigns.  I don't write Letters to the Editor. I go to the island and spend the same amount of money I always had.  What more can they want?  But I'm not just allowing them to push me around anymore.


----------



## Syed

It seemed like they listened to me. They asked me a couple of questions. I think they really dont understand timeshares...I was asked if a timeshare owner gets deed with a unit number. I was asked if I knew taxes went down this year. I replied I knew and also reminded them about the incorect increase in November 2009 which they had to refund this year. Another council member didnt believe there is a timeshare property on island where an owner would end up paying nearly $90 a day in property taxes, if the increase went into effect. I provided him with the information. 
I believe some, if not all, of the Maui timeshare HOAs and ARDA  have been in contact with the Council Members. I also sense the emails timeshare owners have been sending to the County Council members has had an impact.

I think collectively we are doing everything possible and we have their attention.


----------



## pharmgirl

Syed said:


> .
> 
> I think collectively we are doing everything possible and we have their attention.



Thanks so much Syed!!!


----------



## fasha39

Syed said:


> It seemed like they listened to me.




Syed, thank you very much for being our front line defense - you inspired me to get out of the stands and on the court and take action!


----------



## gregb

Here is the Email I sent to the Mayor, Council and Maui News today.  BTW, I did not like getting a phone call from SVO at 7:00am this morning asking me to send a message!

Dear Mayor Arakawa,

I am a Time Share owner in the Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resorts Villas, North.  I want to let you know that I strongly oppose the proposed increase to the tax rate for the Time Shares.  Time Share owners are already paying more than their fair share of the taxes for Maui County and the proposed rate increase makes matters worse.  I understand the Maui County is having financial difficulties, but the proposed tax increases do not fairly share the pain across all tax payers.  Rather, they increase an already extremely high tax rate for Time Share owners.  

The uncertainty in the tax situation and proposed tax rates in Maui County have caused me to rethink my vacation plans.  I was about to purchase another Time Share week on Maui, but have now decided to take my business elsewhere.  This means I will not be spending money in Maui County for food, in restaurants, on excursions, purchasing gas, renting cars, etc.  Because I will not spend the extra time in Maui, the county will lose more tax revenue from the loss of these activities than it will make off the increased tax rate on Time Shares.    

As studies have shown, the Time Share owners have been loyal visitors to Maui, even during the down turn in the economy.  Imagine how much worse the economy of Maui would be if Time Share owners had not been present over the last two years.  

Please reconsider the proposed rate increase.  If a tax rate increase is required, it should be an across the board increase, not just on one segment of the tax base.

Sincerely yours,
   Greg Buchanan


----------



## gregb

While this is a very hot topic in the Starwood section, there is little comment on it in the Marriott section.  Do you suppose that is because the Marriott TimeShares have a lower valuation, and hence a lower tax burden?  Or are the Starwood owners just more vocal?

Greg


----------



## DeniseM

I'm sorry if I missed this, but can someone spell it out for me - how much would the total taxes be for a 2 bdm at WKORV?


----------



## YYJMSP

gregb said:


> BTW, I did not like getting a phone call from SVO at 7:00am this morning asking me to send a message!



While they were leaving the message at our place (thankfully not that early in the morning), they called in again, got call waiting and sent direct to voice mail, and left a second identical message...


----------



## YYJMSP

DeniseM said:


> I'm sorry if I missed this, but can someone spell it out for me - how much would the total taxes be for a 2 bdm at WKORV?



Let's see if I can do the math right.

From the 2011 budget, WKORV Ad Valorem + Property taxes were $346.82 on a 2BR LO unit week.  WKORVN were $397.26.

Assuming that was based on the 14/1,000 rate, and it's now going to be 19.6/1,000, that raises the taxes to $485.55, an increase of $138.73, for WKORV.  And that would be $556.16, an increase of $158.90, for WKORVN.

That's assuming the assessed values for the properties stay the same.  Aren't they supposed to be going down?


----------



## Fredm

DeniseM said:


> I'm sorry if I missed this, but can someone spell it out for me - how much would the total taxes be for a 2 bdm at WKORV?



For KOR North  ~ *$739* (at current rates)

Property taxes: ~ $397
TAT ~ $222 (2400 m/f x 9.25%). This just increased.
GET ~ $120 (2400 m/f x 5%)

ASSUMING assessed valuations are reduced by 13%, the 40% increase in the tax rate would cause the property tax line to increase to $484. Bringing the TOTAL tax burden to *$826 per week.* 
This would increase the property tax by $4524/year, ASSUMING a 13% reduction in assessed value. So much for revenue neutrality.


----------



## LisaRex

Correcting Fred's math (it's early):



Fredm said:


> For KOR North  ~ *$739* (at current rates)
> 
> Property taxes: ~ $397
> TAT ~ $222 (2400 m/f x 9.25%). This just increased.
> GET ~ $120 (2400 m/f x 5%)[/B]


----------



## Fredm

It is early.

I saw the error and restated upward.


----------



## LisaRex

...And if you add in the rental car taxes,  you're looking at another $70-100 in taxes per week. 

Using sample travel dates of June 4-11th, I checked out the rates for an intermediate car with the Costco code and $30 discount coupon.  That brought the rate down to a reasonable $93.00 per week.  The taxes were $70 -- or 43% of the cost of the rental: 

Midsize (USD)   
(1) Time & Distance ($136.67/Week) $136.67  
Discount ($13.67) 
Discount Coupon Accepted ($30.00) 

Subtotal $93.00 

Taxes, Surcharges and Fees    Customer Facility Charge 4.50/day  $31.50 
Concession Recovery Fee 11.11 %  $15.18 
Concession Recovery Fee 11.11 %  ($4.85) 
Rental Mtr Vhcle Schg 3.00 Usd/day  $21.00 
Veh.registration Fee / Weight Tax  $2.45 
Sales Tax (4.1660%)  $4.41 
Subtotal $69.69 

Estimated Total $162.69


----------



## Fredm

Of course Rental Mtr Vhcle Schg 3.00 Usd/day $21.00 and
Veh.registration Fee / Weight Tax $2.45 more than cover any impacts tourists have on roads. Giving further evidence of the lie that the timeshare property tax rates are needed to offset these impacts.

The sham is really disgusting.


----------



## jarta

Yes, Hawaii is an expensive place to visit.

But, DeniseM has posted several times that rental demand for timeshares in Hawaii this year is way up.

The problem that needs to be attacked is the discriminatory Maui property tax rate, not the overall tax burden in HI.  Overall tax burdens are just as high in many other States, notably NY, NJ and California.

Most States have ever-increasing sales, rental car and  facilities charges.  That train has left the station.  

IMO, including such other tax burdens pertaining to the overall tax burden in letters to the Maui County Council is futile.  The council doesn't care about other taxes - most imposed by other jurisdictions.  And, the argument then loses focus on the issue the council is considering - even worse discriminatory taxation where there already is no rational basis or evidence to support the present differential in treatment.   ...   eom


----------



## PamMo

jarta said:


> ...The problem that needs to be attacked is the discriminatory Maui property tax rate, not the overall tax burden in HI.  Overall tax burdens are just as high in many other States, notably NY, NJ and California...



I'm afraid that Jarta and Fred are right. Timeshare owners are easy pickings for tax revenue in Maui. The mayor and council have tried to justify differences in rates by saying we use more services, degrade the environment, or whatever excuse they can come up with. I think they believe timeshare ownership is a "luxury" expense for non-islanders and we owners should easily be able to afford the highest property tax rate on Maui. It's an easy tax for them, because we are obligated to pay whether we use our unit or not. We can't vote, and with the exception of activist Tuggers and some other groups, owners remain oblivious to the council's actions and simply pay higher MF's - or default.

Call me cynical, but without the power to vote in Maui and influence elections (through local campaigning, organizing, and fund-raising), we have little hope our concerns over taxes will be addressed. The issue will need to be decided in court and settled once and for all. But, who is going to fund a court challenge?


----------



## Fredm

PamMo said:


> Call me cynical, but without the power to vote in Maui and influence elections (through local campaigning, organizing, and fund-raising), we have little hope our concerns over taxes will be addressed. The issue will need to be decided in court and settled once and for all. *But, who is going to fund a court challenge?*



You are not cynical. You are a realist.

No one on Maui is a natural ally of timeshare owners in this fight.  Not even the retailers and service providers who benefit from our business. 
GregT wrote an absolutely great letter, making an excellent and completely logical point. It makes sense until the alternative is put to them. If the timeshare tax is not imposed, then commercial tax rates might double or triple.
Property owners would then raise rents on retailers, and so on. C of C members would be divided in their support, so the C of C will stay on the sidelines.

Assuming the C of C were to support timeshare owners (unlikely), it would not get anywhere with the Maui County Council anyway. 
Maui has revenue problems. Faced with deciding to accept a minor loss of sales tax revenue which goes to the State, or, property taxes which accrue 100% to the County General Fund, they will choose the later every time. Indeed, they have already made that calculation, IMO. It will only serve as more political fodder for the dubious argument that timeshare owners spend less than other visitors (which legally has nothing to do with property tax rates, in any case). 

This goes to court or goes nowhere (my ongoing refrain).
You can bet your flip flops that all other property classifications will line up behind the County in that suit. If the timeshare tax rate was declared unconstitutional it would cause a major redistribution of the property tax allocation on Maui. 

So, we are on our own. ARDA/ROC is the best hope we have to lead a legal challenge. Bombard them with emails.


----------



## fasha39

Fredm said:


> You are not cynical. You are a realist.
> 
> So, we are on our own. ARDA/ROC is the best hope we have to lead a legal challenge. Bombard them with emails.



Here is the response I received from ARDA-ROC;

Mr.  – thanks for contacting ARDA-ROC and for your interest and passion in fighting against the proposed property tax increase in Hawaii.  Just so you know my office has the responsibility of coordinating ARDA-ROC’s legislative efforts in Hawaii, which includes the fight against the Real Property Tax increase as proposed by the Maui County Mayor.  I can assure you that ARDA-ROC is working extremely hard, both in public and behind the scenes, lobbying against this 40% tax increase.  Timeshare owners already bear more than their fair share of property taxes on Maui and this 40% increase is definitively a punitive measure against the industry, including owners and developers alike. 

ARDA-ROC has already engaged two lobbyists, a statewide research consultant, a local community organizer and is working to secure a property tax consultant all with the intent of showing that the Council is misguided in its attempt to increase the property tax rate on timeshare owners.  It continues to work with the local development community to coordinate lobbying efforts at the various community hearings and will be present at every meeting of the Budget and Finance Committee.

As for the legal challenge you inquire about, ARDA-ROC has engaged legal counsel who is preparing research to determine if the Council’s actions back in 2005, as well as their current attempt to increase the tax rate, could be viewed as unconstitutional under both State and Federal law.  Depending on the results of the research, and the final actions of the Council, ARDA-ROC will then make a determination of litigation is the property course of action.

ARDA-ROC will continue to put updates on www.ardaroc.org on this issue but if you would like to talk about ARDA-ROC’s efforts in detail please feel free to give me a call.

Jason

Jason Gamel
Vice President - State Government Affairs
4901 Vineland Road, Suite 635
Orlando, FL 32811
Phone: (407) 245-7601 Ext. 25
Fax: (407) 872-0771


----------



## gblotter

Syed said:


> I testified before of the Maui County Council in Kihei a few hours ago. I was the only one testifying about the timeshare tax matter.
> 
> It is on youtube.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scZ81UIC4dM


Thank you for championing this cause.  I am very concerned about Maui's vilification of timeshare owners (we come every year even in bad economic times and yet somehow we are the undesirable visitor?).  You addressed that point very well.  It seems the video is cut off in the middle of your excellent speech.  Is there a "Part B"?


----------



## TUGBrian

Update today from ARDA-ROC



> In an effort to find additional revenue to balance the state budget, on April 12th the Hawaii House of Representatives passed SB 1186 S2 HD1 by a vote of 45-6, which included a 27.5% increase in transient accommodation taxes paid by timeshare owners.



http://www.ardaroc.org/roc/legislative-issues/issues.aspx?id=2513


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## LisaRex

Thanks for the update, Brian. 

I wonder if they will at least deduct out the property taxes and Capital Improvement expenses before taxing us on our MFs.   If not, I'd rather have them bill both items separately.


----------



## Westin5Star

TUGBrian said:


> Update today from ARDA-ROC
> http://www.ardaroc.org/roc/legislative-issues/issues.aspx?id=2513



Last week when the US government was possibly going to shut / scale down, Washington DC was not going to be receiving trash pick up until the government reopened.  Many Washington DC residents were planning to take their trash and dump it in front of John Beihner' house / apartment.  The last I heard the number that committed to this through Facebook was over 7000.  

Once we find out who these four conference committee members are, we could all have some fun with ths.  We should start brainstorming for something fun and legal for Maui TS owners to do in front of the applicable politician's houses.  I will get started.

Assuming these ideas are legal we could:

Idea #1- It has been argued that TS owners are not as valuable as hotel guests because they do not spend as much money eating out.  A cookout on the sidewalk in front of their house would save us money since we are too cheap to go out to dinner.  Between all the TSs in Maui, I wonder how many people we could get to a daily or weekly cookout?

Idea #2- It has been argued that TS owners are too cheap to pay for excursions.  We could find some really fun, entertaining, and free things to do in front of these houses.

Idea #3- We could go door to door through the politicians neighborhoods with petitions for our cause.  We would be sure to let the neighbors all know who is responsible for us being there.  If enough TS owners showed up at anyone's door, they would eventually sign it.  Once we get the signatures of their neighbors, we could present them to he politicians.

Idea #4- We could stage a driving campaign through these neighborhoods.  The TS owners could all get in their car rentals and drive back and forth creating a virtual parking lot on the politicians street.  Oh, nevermind on this one won't work as TS owners are probably too cheap to rent cars; TS owners probably just walk everywhere so that they don't spend money on the island.

Any other legal suggestions would be great!


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## gravitar

Wouldn't it be fun if they threw a party and nobody came.


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## TUGBrian

Update from ARDA-ROC



> Yesterday, the Mayor of Maui released the attached schedule to the Maui County Council, when he presented the certified property values.  Please note that the Timeshare rate of $19.60 has been reduced to $15.45, so we are looking at a $1.45 increase in rate.  Ken McKelvey, the Chairman of ARDA-ROC flew out to testify in opposition of any increase at the hearing of the Budget and Finance Committee that is taking place today at 9:00 am HDT.


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## GregT

TUGBrian said:


> Update from ARDA-ROC



Brian, thanks for pointing this out -- a good letter is also written -- see the link below.  Thx


http://www.ardaroc.org/uploadedFile...ounty Council Testimony 4-20-11 _written_.pdf


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## gregb

Thanks for the link, Greg.  I was just doing some calculations to see what percentage of the tax burden Timeshares carry, and I find it all in the link.  

Maybe the Mayor wanted a small increase, but started at a higher number so that when is smaller increase is proposed, it sounds more reasonable.  

If anything, Timeshare owners should be pushing for a DROP in the rate for timeshares, to bring the tax burden in line with other property in Maui.

Greg 



GregT said:


> Brian, thanks for pointing this out -- a good letter is also written -- see the link below.  Thx
> 
> 
> http://www.ardaroc.org/uploadedFile...ounty Council Testimony 4-20-11 _written_.pdf


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## Syed

The following was in the Maui News today April 20, 2011.
Mayor Alan Arakawa acknowledged that council members have been "bombarded" by phone calls and emails from time share property managers and unit owners protesting a proposed increase in property tax rate for timeshares.  But he urged council members “don't be confused" by the complaints.  "Their intent is to say we’re trying to jack their prices up," he said.  "Our entire purpose is to keep it revenue neutral, the same as last year."
Timeshare properties would pay $15.45 per $1000 of assessed value under Arakawa's revised proposal.  That's less than the $19.60 he originally proposed but still and increase over the $14 timeshares pay now.
Based on the certified property values for 2012, the county would collect $24.83 million from timeshares under the proposed rate.  That's about 0.2 percent less than the $24.87 million the county expected to collect in 2011.
Other property tax rates proposed by Arakawa include:
Residential - $5.50 per $1,000 of assessed value. (Original proposal: $5.55. Current: $5.)
Apartment- $5.70. (Original proposal: $5.75. Current: $5.)
Commercial-$6.25 (Original proposal: $6.45. Current:$6.25.)
Industrial- $7.15 (Original proposal: $7.25. Current: $6.50)
Hotel/Resort-$9.10 (Original proposal: $9.35. Current: $8.30)

Regardless of the Mayor's comments, I believe the numerous emails and letters from the timeshare owners, efforts by ARDA, Marriott and Consolidated Management and Starwood, helped.


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## LisaRex

We timeshare owners should not be confused, either.  We're paying a disproportionate share of the burden and it's. not. fair.

And it's probably illegal.


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## GregT

In the Mayor's budget, it is interesting (painful) to see the details.

Total real estate assessed value in Maui:  $32.9 billion
Total timeshare assessed value in Maui:  $1.6 billion

Percent of total assessed value that timeshares represent:  ~4.9%

Total revenue projections from property taxes:   $210.1 million
Total revenue projections from timeshare property taxes:  $24.8 million

Percent of total property taxes paid by timeshares:  ~11.8%

That's a disproportionate percentage of the total taxes -- and this is at 15.45% and not at 19.6%!!!     If we had been at 19.6%, total payments would have been $31.5 million, not $24.8 million.

I'm glad we spoke up (thanks Syed!!)!   But it's still painful and I hope the HOAs/ARDA still object to the huge increase from 2009 to 2010....


Best,

Greg


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## rickandcindy23

> Last week when the US government was possibly going to shut / scale down, Washington DC was not going to be receiving trash pick up until the government reopened. Many Washington DC residents were planning to take their trash and dump it in front of John Beihner' house / apartment. The last I heard the number that committed to this through Facebook was over 7000.


Trashy thing to do, and forgive the pun, but it's really sleazy to even consider doing something like that, not to mention illegal.

I wouldn't be up for doing anything other than the letter writing I did.  No sense making a nuisance of oneself for a cause.  It's going to have the opposite effect.


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## Living the Dream

I'm not sure how much influence any of us will have with any of the local pol's.  I think the better way to effect change is to talk directly with the local business owners that depend on our business.

We are going in August.  I plan on calling a restaurant or two and telling them that we are eating at home instead of going out to their restaurant as a protest.  I also will call one of the event organizers and do the same.

Everything is up.  Airlines are charging a small fortune to get us there.  Car rentals, MF's etc are all up.  They need to understand that there is a recession on the mainland as well.  We don't have the same amount of disposable income that we had a few years ago.  We will still go, but we won't spend like we have in the past.  And I plan on being vocal about it.


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## gregb

Adding to what GregT said, 

The per unit taxes paid by Timeshares is $7,519.  
The per unit taxes paid by Homeowners is $583.

Now how can they justify that Timeshares pay nearly *13 times*  the taxes, per unit, as Homeowners?  We don't use the schools, rarely interact with the police or fire departments, don't use the hospitals or social services.  So how can they justify this enormous difference????

Greg B



GregT said:


> In the Mayor's budget, it is interesting (painful) to see the details.
> 
> Total real estate assessed value in Maui:  $32.9 billion
> Total timeshare assessed value in Maui:  $1.6 billion
> 
> Percent of total assessed value that timeshares represent:  ~4.9%
> 
> Total revenue projections from property taxes:   $210.1 million
> Total revenue projections from timeshare property taxes:  $24.8 million
> 
> Percent of total property taxes paid by timeshares:  ~11.8%
> 
> That's a disproportionate percentage of the total taxes -- and this is at 15.45% and not at 19.6%!!!     If we had been at 19.6%, total payments would have been $31.5 million, not $24.8 million.
> 
> I'm glad we spoke up (thanks Syed!!)!   But it's still painful and I hope the HOAs/ARDA still object to the huge increase from 2009 to 2010....
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


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## clsmit

*WKORV on Facebook -- not helpful*

I got an email this week to "like" WKORV on Facebook (2 emails, actually, they don't purge their lists for 2 weeks). There's a lot of chatter about the tax increase because of the email SVO sent a couple weeks ago. If you are on Facebook, "like" Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas to see what others are saying. Some of you may already be posting there.  In response, here's what WKORV posted to Facebook last night:

Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas
Thank you to all our owners who have recently joined our Facebook Fans. We appreciate your comments and concerns regarding the County’s current proposed property tax increase. For questions or updates on what you can do, kindly contact your HOA Board of Directors. We invite you to share your positive resort experiences and vacations tips on Facebook for all to enjoy. Mahalo and we look forward to welcoming you home!


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## MaeWest

gregb said:


> Adding to what GregT said,
> 
> The per unit taxes paid by Timeshares is $7,519.
> The per unit taxes paid by Homeowners is $583.
> 
> Now how can they justify that Timeshares pay nearly *13 times*  the taxes, per unit, as Homeowners?  We don't use the schools, rarely interact with the police or fire departments, don't use the hospitals or social services.  So how can they justify this enormous difference????
> 
> Greg B



This battle has been fought for the past couple of decades in jurisdictions throughout the United States and in different forms.

Municipalities seeking to increase revenues, to offset a drop in revenues or to provide a dedicated stream of revenues for a bonding often target visitors instead of residents who vote.  The classic example is the hotel tax that is often used to support the building of stadiums and convention centers. 

Travel often and one will see extra taxes applied to car rentals and restaurants.  The Los Angeles Times ran a good story on the issue a year ago.

If politics is the process by which we make and divide an economic pie, then this will be a continual battle in the timeshare arena. Natural allies are those who do not want any taxes increased and those who believe that their economic health will be diminished by direct and indirect consequences. Those opposed will be those who do not want their ox gored instead, either through increased taxation or a reduction in benefits.

This process will be continuing for a very long time, in my opinion, as cities and counties struggle to find revenue as states continue to cut LGA (local government assistance) in the painful process of balancing state budgets.

In other words, this timeshare real estate tax battle in Maui will likely be repeated in the next couple of years.


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## Westin5Star

Ouch.  I did hear about those sites getting shut down.  I am glad that you didn't get hit too hard.  Let me know when you are planning the HRA tourney and I might try to get there at the same time to buy that drink for you.


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## LisaRex

DavidnRobin said:


> W5* - PS: speaking of which (tangent side-note) - you heard about the DOJ shutting down the major on-line poker sites and seizing their USA domain names last Friday (Apr15)?  Be glad you stayed on FaceBook - I now will have to wait and see if/when I get the money I had on PokerStars (luckily it was a relatively small amount and was all profit...).



Acc to the guy on NPR, the online poker sites and the DOJ reached an agreement on Wednesday with FullTilt and PokerStars that would restore the domain names for a short window to allow players an opportunity to retrieve the money left in their accounts.  There are currently no charges being brought against the gamblers.

FTR, the poker sites aren't being charged with online gambling or racketeering, as state laws are varying and murky on the question of legality, but rather bank fraud and money laundering.  Apparently, they used third party shell companies (with misleading names (the commentator used the example of "Easy Shoes")) to handle the money, so that the credit card companies wouldn't reject the transaction.  Of course, with $3B changing hands, they quickly knew that all these customers weren't buying shoes.  But it was a loophole that worked until the DOJ stepped in.  

My personal guess is that Congress will work to create laws that allow online gambling, for no other reason than because they'll want to tax that $3B. 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=135450743

http://www.npr.org/2011/04/20/135574448/online-gambling-wildly-popular-but-legally-suspect


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## clsmit

*Really?*

Today's Facebook Posting

Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas
Aloha Owners! We have initiated a successful email campaign to members of Maui County Budget Committee expressing our deep concerns on the proposed tax increases. As additional petitions or campaigns may not be advantageous, we appreciate if you could kindly refrain from doing so. We are confident our efforts will yield a positive outcome and invite you to continue being our OHANA (family) in Maui.
---------------

Those of you who are working closely on the issue, do you agree?


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## Born2Travel

*Really???  Indeed!*

Here's part of an article I read in the Maui News - 

Gregg Lundberg, general manager of the Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas, a mixed-use timeshare property, began his testimony by "recognizing the discomfort caused by the e-mail campaign that many timeshare owners sent as they struggle to have their voices heard"

"However," he pointed out, "it's important for all of us to realize that these owners stand to be tremendously impacted by the outcome of your deliberations and can no longer idly sit by as they are seemingly taken advantage of, because they are not Hawaii residents"

Why do they seem to want to stop the emails... apparently they have gotten some attention.


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## DeniseM

*Political Posts*

Folks - I know it's really difficult to separate politics from taxes, but those are the rules.   Please try to focus on the timeshare tax issue and not the political ramifications - thanks!


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## alohakevin

clsmit said:


> Today's Facebook Posting
> 
> Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas
> Aloha Owners! We have initiated a successful email campaign to members of Maui County Budget Committee expressing our deep concerns on the proposed tax increases. As additional petitions or campaigns may not be advantageous, we appreciate if you could kindly refrain from doing so. We are confident our efforts will yield a positive outcome and invite you to continue being our OHANA (family) in Maui.
> ---------------
> 
> Those of you who are working closely on the issue, do you agree?



The owners are the ones responsible for the campaign not starwood.

1.45 is better than 5.60 But ill bet bet we haven't seen the last of this


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## Westin5Star

DeniseM said:


> Folks - I know it's really difficult to separate politics from taxes, but those are the rules.   Please try to focus on the timeshare tax issue and not the political ramifications - thanks!



Denise, 

Are we allowed to discuss the reasons for the taxes?  

Are we allowed to discuss who should be taxed?  

I think that it is odd if we are just accepting that increases must take place and or to say that the increases must be to TS owners.

I think that the previous posts did a very good job of just talking about the reasons for the taxes and who they affected; they were written in a way that completely tied them to our potential MF increase.  There did not seem to be any blame or discussion of political parties.  Thank you in advance for your clarification.


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## DeniseM

Politics is not just the discussion of political parties - politics also involves just about anything regarding the government.  

You can certainly discuss the timeshare tax, but when you start posting about the shortcomings of the local government in general, then it's a violation of the TUG posting rules.  I know it's a fine line.


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## DavidnRobin

Born2Travel said:


> Here's part of an article I read in the Maui News -
> 
> Gregg Lundberg, general manager of the Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas, a mixed-use timeshare property, began his testimony by "recognizing the discomfort caused by the e-mail campaign that many timeshare owners sent as they struggle to have their voices heard"
> 
> "However," he pointed out, "it's important for all of us to realize that these owners stand to be tremendously impacted by the outcome of your deliberations and can no longer idly sit by as they are seemingly taken advantage of, because they are not Hawaii residents"
> 
> Why do they seem to want to stop the emails... apparently they have gotten some attention.



re: WKORV FaceBook/email campaign

I do not read it that way - as for FaceBook - this is WKORV-SVO's wall - not WKORV-Owners wall.  So as it it their wall - it within their right to only have positive messages on it for potential buyers (right or wrong).  I have the same issue reminding my Mom that it is my wall when she brings up her disagreement to my warped sense of politics on my FB wall.(#NotIntendedToBeAFactualStatment for those of you who are Twitter savvy).  She gets it now... and sticks to her own wall for such rhetoric.

I do not think Greg is requesting a stop of the email campaign to the Maui Gov't regarding TS taxation - blast away.  Just not something WKORV-SVO wants on their FB wall where all is shiny and bright.

Nothing is stopping us from creating our own FB WKORV wall/group - but it would be like the preacher preaching to the choir.

Note: it is amazing to me how many people are afraid of FB - like all of their identity will be stolen - but to each his own - some people are just not into social networking - or do not get it.  I find FB a great way to share things with Family/Friends, and do not post things that I care if people see (just like my YouTube videos).


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## LisaRex

DeniseM said:


> Politics is not just the discussion of political parties - politics also involves just about anything regarding the government.
> 
> You can certainly discuss the timeshare tax, but when you start posting about the shortcomings of the local government in general, then it's a violation of the TUG posting rules.  I know it's a fine line.



Huh? We can't complain that the local government where we own a TS is taxing us to death?  I honestly don't understand why this would be a TUG violation.  Elected officials are in the public and should be able to withstand public scrutiny.


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## LisaRex

DavidnRobin said:


> Nothing is stopping us from creating our own FB WKORV wall/group - but it would be like the preacher preaching to the choir.



I think that that is a capital idea!


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## DeniseM

LisaRex said:


> Huh? We can't complain that the local government where we own a TS is taxing us to death?  I honestly don't understand why this would be a TUG violation.  Elected officials are in the public and should be able to withstand public scrutiny.



Lisa - I didn't say that.  I said that posts in this forum should focus on the timeshare tax issue.  The post I deleted went far beyond that in discussing a multitude of social/economic/political issues in Hawaii - not directly related to timesharing.  

Unless it's directly related to timesharing, as the tax is, it's not permitted on TUG.

Here's a total hypothetical example:

If I post about the decisions that Maui County is making about the timeshare taxes, why it's a bad decision, how it's unfair to TS owners, and how they aren't listening to TS owners - that's OK.  It's political - but it's DIRECTLY related to timesharing.

If I post about how large the welfare rolls are in Hawaii and criticize the welfare recipients on Maui  and the Govt. officials who run the welfare system, and blame them for high TS taxes - that's not OK. - It's a contentions social and political issue that is not DIRECTLY related to timesharing.​
As I said, I know there is a fine line between the two.


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## paluamalia

*Timeshare tax issue*

Thank you Denise for posting the clarification.....I found a number of postings to be "off topic" to say the least.


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## Westin5Star

Denise, 

Are we allowed to discuss the reasons for the taxes? 

Are we allowed to discuss who should be taxed?

I am trying to make sure that we all stay within the boundaries TUG has set in place while still trying to appropriately discuss the issue (TS taxes).  It is hard to discuss the issue if the reason and circumstances of the issue cannot be discussed.

I guess my question for you is does TUG consider discussing policy to be political?  I think that it is possible to discuss the policies (i.e. TS taxes) without discussing politics (the motives and individuals making the policies).

Thank you and sorry for the need for us to understand this sensitive line here.  Our TS taxes are obviously important to many of us and we do want to keep the discussions appropriate and relevant.


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## DeniseM

Jody - I have answered that question as clearly as I can.  Please focus on the timeshare tax and it's implementation, and not the larger political/social/economic issues in Hawaii -Thank you.


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## alohakevin

When is the final vote on increases


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## TUGBrian

Congratulations owners, this proposal was defeated!



> In a move that was applauded by timeshare owners and the timeshare industry alike, the joint House and Senate Conference Committee considering amendments to SB1186 agreed to omit the 27.5% increase in transient accommodation taxes paid by timeshare owners.




http://www.ardaroc.org/roc/legislative-issues/issues.aspx?id=2593


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## PamMo

Woo-hoo!!!! (For now at least.)


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## fasha39

PamMo said:


> Woo-hoo!!!! (For now at least.)



This is great news - well done to everyone who took the time to voice their displeasure!


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## GregT

Nice response from Senator Baker -- my new favorite Hawaiian legislator.



From: Sen. Roz Baker [mailto:senbaker@capitol.hawaii.gov] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 11:48 AM
To: Greg Tibbitts
Subject: RE: Transient Accommodations Tax

The tax on timeshare owners has indeed been omitted from the conference draft we’re voting on today.  Roz

From: Greg Tibbitts [mailto:gtibbitts@accumetrics.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 7:17 AM
To: Sen. Roz Baker
Subject: FW: Transient Accommodations Tax

Senator Baker,

Thank you very much -- I understand that the TAT has been omitted as part of the conference discussions – I appreciate your attention to this important issue and we look forward to returning to the beautiful island of Maui for years to come.

All the best,

Greg


From: Sen. Roz Baker [mailto:senbaker@capitol.hawaii.gov] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:54 PM
To: Greg Tibbitts
Subject: RE: Transient Accomodations Tax

Aloha Greg,

Thanks for your e-mail.  I share your concerns.  I do not intend to hear this measure that has been assigned to my committee.  I look forward to you and your family continuing to enjoy our beautiful valley island for many years to come.

Best regards,  Roz Baker

Senator Rosalyn H. Baker
Chair, Senate Committee on Commerce and Consumer Protection 
5th District -- South and West Maui 
808-586-6070 (voice)
808-586-6071 (fax)
senbaker@capitol.hawaii.gov
www.capitol.hawaii.gov


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## LisaRex

Thanks, Sen. Baker!  I'll be sending money to her re-election campaign.


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## taffy19

Syed said:


> Mayor Alan Arakawa proposed an increase in property tax rate for timeshares from $14.00/1000 to $19.60/1000. I intend to coordinate efforts with local timeshare developers/HOA/management companies and businesses that will be affected by this increase and contact county council members and the Mayor's office.
> Since this my first attempt at trying to do something like this, your suggestions on how to approach it is welcome.


I heard from our HOA board at the Maui Sunset that the County is now recommending a tax increase from $14 per $1,000 to $15.45 per $1,000.  

That isn't as bad as the Mayor had first in mind of over $19 per $1,000.  He doesn't seem to like timeshare owners but we are keeping the tourist economy going when hotels are not full.  

The Marriott MOC was full to capacity but many restaurants were not except the few on Ka'anapali beach.  We still got seated pretty fast even during sunset.  There used to be a long waiting line but not this spring.


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## alohakevin

GregT said:


> Nice response from Senator Baker -- my new favorite Hawaiian legislator.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The tax on timeshare owners has indeed been omitted from the conference draft we’re voting on today.
> 
> Best regards,  Roz Baker
> 
> Thanks Greg. It seems both the state and county has listened to all the feedback. This is great news


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## alohakevin

*response to arda-roc email*

its my understanding the tax rate on timeshares on maui have doubled in the last four years.i am a new timeshare owner and am very concerned about my decision to own in hawaii. the time for dialogue is over. the council has made it clear that they are not concerned with owners and have a proven track record of continuing to oppresively burden timeshare with their tax burden.this is ridiculous.when you compare the percentages to other property classifications it is very lopsided. this has to be illegal tax policy and i dont understand why we have to continue to put up with it,there seems to be a legitimate legal argument and as my representative in these matters who at this point i still fund it seems its your responsibility to put forth the appropriate action to put an end to this.i am not opposed to paying taxes that are evenly distributed but this is ridiculous.someone is being played for a chump here and i dont want to pay for it.enough is enough,you need to make a stand on this legally {dont consider it, do it}maui has proven for years it will continue to pass the tax burden onto timeshare indiscriminately until it is forced not to do so.  regards


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## alohakevin

*arda-roc email*

Issue Updates
ARDA-Hawaii and ARDA-ROC, through both its written testimony and in-person testimony at the May 5th hearing, offered to help the County Council develop a fair and equitable system for assessing timeshare units as the current one is does not meet that criteria and results in frequent property tax appeals.  If that offer to help does not yield meaningful conversations with the County, and the rate is ultimately increased to $15.00 per $1,000, ARDA-ROC will continue to assess its remaining options, including legal action against the County. Please check back to ARDAROC.org for updates and expect additional information about this issue later in May once the Council has taken final action on the proposed rates.


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## Javier01

Property maintenance is very essential. It may include building repairs, electrical installation, carpentry, roofing and many other works. If the property is under good maintenance then the market price will also go high when it comes to the point of selling the property.


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## DeniseM

Javier01 said:


> Property maintenance is very essential. It may include building repairs, electrical installation, carpentry, roofing and many other works. If the property is under good maintenance then the market price will also go high when it comes to the point of selling the property.



Spammer, huh?


----------

