# Why are time shares a scam??



## Gypsy65 (May 14, 2019)

This post may get a lot of backlash

But I own timeshares and purchased them with the idea they were not an investment but they gave me a nicer place or places to stay at than a hotel 

I read. Read and read some more how horrible they are and people desperately trying to get out and I get that. 
There are times I myself would like the same. 
But the question is why are they a scam?
I purchased a $80,000 pick up truck and did not go home and immediately get on line looking for a way to get the dealer to take it back. In fact I traded in a 1 year old truck on this one and took a $15,000 loss and never asked the original dealer for a refund or complained that I lost money on it

I did lose but knew that when I bought the first truck and again when I bought the 2nd
Poor decisions. Absolutely!! But they were my decisions. 
I will never make $$ on this vehicle as it’s value is dropping faster than the balance owed but it serves a purpose 

How are timeshares any different?
Sure. Some sales people either lie or they themselves don’t actually know what they are talking about. 
But is it not up to us to make an educated purchase?

I’ve made many poor financial decisions. Timeshare included, but in the end it was my decision and I was never held at gun point 

I think part of the regret is that many people. Myself included although I think I’m getting better at it. Do not know how to fully use their timeshare 

And I think many people are on a fixed budget and save for a long time or use a credit card to take a vacation and vacations are much different than real life
They see a resort that took them a few years to save for to get to and fall for the lifestyle 
Then once they get home they quickly realize that they don’t have the extra $$ to live that life or go on that type of vacation every year

My point is. I don’t think there are really many things in life that make us a profit
Not my groceries. Not my vehicles. Not my insurances or any of my entertainment so why do we. Again myself included feel that timeshares should be any different??


----------



## rickandcindy23 (May 14, 2019)

Well, my only comment is that timeshares via resale are bargains and worth a look for anyone who travels even two weeks a year.  You can get great value out of a timeshare, especially when you have kids and want to give them that experience.  We sure enjoyed timeshares with our family, and we still do.  Now we have grandchildren, and most of our trips are with kids and grandkids today.  

Sure, I want to get rid of some of mine.  I have a lot of deposits in II currently, that's for sure.


----------



## TravelTime (May 14, 2019)

Good points. Another question I wonder about is why do people on TUG get so addicted to timeshares and want to know every nitty gritty detail about them? Especially when TUG is often calling TSs a scam.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (May 14, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Good points. Another question I wonder about is why do people on TUG get so addicted to timeshares and want to know every nitty gritty detail about them? Especially when TUG is often calling TSs a scam.


Who calls timeshares a scam?  It's a waste of money to buy developer for most timeshares, when resale is much less expensive.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (May 14, 2019)

It's also more cost effective to buy a certified used car, but many people still buy new. IMO some of the scam stories help the developer because people buy direct from the developer because they are afraid of being scammed.  That's why we initially purchased developer (did not find Tug in time). It's a wild west on the resale side and resale prices seem too good to be true.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (May 14, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Good points. Another question I wonder about is why do people on TUG get so addicted to timeshares and want to know every nitty gritty detail about them? Especially when TUG is often calling TSs a scam.



For me, we paid developer on our first purchase. Making up for lost ground by being sure we fully researched before we bought our next TSs.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 14, 2019)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Who calls timeshares a scam?  It's a waste of money to buy developer for most timeshares, when resale is much less expensive.



Tons of people
Just google timeshare and scam is the next word automatically filled in

Resale works to a point for most people but the resorts know this and therefore offer other perks if you buy from them

 I owned 3 weeks with HICV and purchased them for almost nothing on eBay. Then purchased 2 weeks from the resort which allowed us to bring my eBay buys in as points along with bringing us to Signature Platinum Elite level which has added even more benefits

So agreed. Resales are cheap if not free but come with some limited restrictions

Update
Just reread your post. It was about TUG scam


----------



## WinniWoman (May 14, 2019)

Like a car, resales are usually a better value.


----------



## Ironwood (May 14, 2019)

Because.....like Hotel California..."you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave!"


----------



## Luvtoride (May 14, 2019)

[QUOTE="Gypsy65,

I think part of the regret is that many people. Myself included although I think I’m getting better at it. Do not know how to fully use their timeshare 
[/QUOTE]

Exactly a big part of the reason for dissatisfaction.  Those of us on Tug have made it our mission to learn all we can about our TS ownerships.  Yes it still costs us alot of money on an ongoing basis but if we feel we are using them for great vacation experiences there is no regret for the “investments” we’ve made. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SteelerGal (May 14, 2019)

Being a family of 7 and spending ridiculous amounts of $$$ at hotel, I am grateful I started researching TS.  Found RedWeek and then TUG.  Now Dh and I look forward to vacations.  2 more trips planned for this year and then 4 trips planned for next.  
Because of TS, my family is able to travel comfortably at a reasonable price.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (May 14, 2019)

Overly aggressive sales people pitch people on vacation who cannot afford to buy. When they get home and wake up it's too late. They need longer rescission periods.

Elderly and people with changes in circumstances (health, lost job etc.) cannot easily sell.


----------



## bdfitzp (May 14, 2019)

From someone who purchased from developer I have no regrets.  I felt I was not scammed. I admit I was not familiar about resales at the time but even after learning I still am happy with my decision. Someone has to be the original purchaser or these fabulous resorts would not exist. So for all those who brag about how they love their timeshares they were able to  purchase resale, maybe just a little appreciation and thank you for us "original purchasers" who made your life a little more enjoyable.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 14, 2019)

SteelerGal said:


> Being a family of 7 and spending ridiculous amounts of $$$ at hotel, I am grateful I started researching TS.  Found RedWeek and then TUG.  Now Dh and I look forward to vacations.  2 more trips planned for this year and then 4 trips planned for next.
> Because of TS, my family is able to travel comfortably at a reasonable price.



I agree
I know many people who never take vacations or do anything with their family and to me they may regret those decisions when they are older and kids gone

I think timeshares, no matter how purchased sorta force us to plan and take vacations 

They’re not a financial investment by any meaning of the word but neither are children 
Children are an expense and a lot of work but if you do it right then there’s a satisfaction value
Same with TS or vacations. The value is the same you would get from your kids or a nice restaurant 

Some things in life you just can’t put a price tag on. 
Would the words 
“ sentimental value “ work here??


----------



## TravelTime (May 14, 2019)

bdfitzp said:


> From someone who purchased from developer I have no regrets.  I felt I was not scammed. I admit I was not familiar about resales at the time but even after learning I still am happy with my decision. Someone has to be the original purchaser or these fabulous resorts would not exist. So for all those who brag about how they love their timeshares they were able to  purchase resale, maybe just a little appreciation and thank you for us "original purchasers" who made your life a little more enjoyable.



Yes yes yes! I agree. So many people are dissing the developers and criticizing people who bought direct. I will say Thank you to all the original owners who allowed me to purchase their time share on the resale market. Some day, someone will get an even better deal when they buy my resale-resales.


----------



## Jan M. (May 14, 2019)

Many of us had no idea about timeshare resales when we bought developer. The best advise is get over what you paid and learn to use what you have. And keep checking for reservations. Persistence pays off.

For going on 17 years we have vacationed more than most people even dream of doing. And in really nice accommodations. The only studio we've stayed in and go back to is at a resort and area we love. Their studios are large, have a balcony or patio, a full kitchen, have a comfortable queen Murphy bed, a sleeper sofa and a room divider that pulls to section off the Murphy bed at night.

We moved to Florida for my husband to take a new job after he got downsized from his job up North weeks before his 61st birthday. For four months and a few days, December 5, 2010-April 8, 2011, he lived out of two Wyndham timeshares. Mostly at Palm-Aire and a few weeks Sea Gardens. Whenever I had time I was checking for reservations and all of it was booked with our VIP discount and a free upgrade on the unit size for all most all of it. Our developer purchased timeshare was a real blessing. The best part was that I was able to send my husband off on his own 1,200 miles away to try out a new job for the cost of the gas money to get to Florida. By the end of the first week he told me to go ahead and sell the house as he wasn't coming back. He got really spoiled by housekeeping coming in to clean, bringing him fresh towels, making up the bed with clean sheets and resupplying him with paper and soap products. He only had to wash his clothes and take care of the shopping, cooking and clean up for his meals for a little over four months. It was a tough life but he managed, lol. Btw his whole stay was during the winter months when stays are supposedly hard to find in this part of Florida. And at Palm-Aire they kept him in the same unit so he didn't have to move.


----------



## LannyPC (May 15, 2019)

Gypsy65 said:


> But the question is why are they a scam?



I wouldn't necessarily say that they're a scam.  Most people who post scathing remarks about TSs on social media call them scams because they feel they, or someone close to them, got suckered in by those infamous sales people.  I guess a lot of the half-truths, omission of facts, skewed facts and figures, and outright lies they were told by the sales people make these owners fell like they have been scammed.


----------



## joestein (May 15, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Overly aggressive sales people pitch people on vacation who cannot afford to buy. When they get home and wake up it's too late. They need longer rescission periods.
> 
> Elderly and people with changes in circumstances (health, lost job etc.) cannot easily sell.



I have to agree.  Overly aggressive sales pitch filled with lies.  Too often elderly people and poor people are take advantage of.  Most have no real value, so they are difficult to get rid of, especially when there is a loan attached.   How is it not a scam?

Look at it from a financial standpoint.  Emerald Grand in Destin, which is only part time share.  Lets say a 3 bedroom unit goes for $1MM (the prices range from upper 000s to low MMs).   Depending on which type of 3 bedroom and time of year you get, the point cost is 325K to 550K a week.  Lets say an average of 400K per week.  That is 20,800,000 points per year.   How much do you think that Wyndham sells that for?  at $15K per 100K of points that is around $3MM.  

So, $3MM vs $1MM.  How is that not a scam.  That is not to mention the maintenance.  At $6/1000 points (which is probably low) that is $125,000 year in maintenance vs $1327/month or about $16K.  Once again, how not a scam?

I own resale, but I have begun to wonder if it makes sense to continue to own.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (May 15, 2019)

I think the developers are great for building new resorts for us to trade into.  I just don't want to buy into their expensive resorts.  I want to stay there for less than the owners pay in MF's via trades, and I mostly don't care if it's off-season.  I can travel when kids are in school. 

We just stayed at Marriott's Ko Olina.  Wow, I loved it, but I see weeks sitting online for that resorts that I can pick up with my Marriott's Willow Ridge week.  Sure it was April, but we got a bargain, and airfare was extra cheap for that time of year (last minute), too.


----------



## bogey21 (May 15, 2019)

I don't believe TimeShares are a scam.  My take is that if  one understands the product and is nimble TimeShare ownership can be a good deal.  My gripe is when the big guys (Wyndham, Hilton, Marriott, Hyatt, etc) unilaterally change the rules to the detriment of Owners...

George


----------



## bnoble (May 15, 2019)

I don't believe they are a scam. But your analogy is flawed.



Gypsy65 said:


> I purchased a $80,000 pick up truck and did not go home and immediately get on line looking for a way to get the dealer to take it back. In fact I traded in a 1 year old truck on this one and took a $15,000 loss and never asked the original dealer for a refund or complained that I lost money on it



Alan Cole, aka AwayWeGo, puts it best, and has been putting it this way for years now:

----------
"By the time the resale OR original owner shows up & checks in, other people will previously have been staying right there in that very same timeshare unit. Thus all timeshare units are _used-used-used_ any way you shake it -- & so it makes no sense whatever to pay new prices for an item that is plain & simple not new."
-----------​That's not true for the truck. There are objective differences between a new truck and one that was previously owned by someone else. You can argue over whether or not those objective differences are worth the difference in price---some people think they are, others that they are not---but they are there. At their most basic, *most* timeshares purchased from the developer are exactly the same in how they are used vs. those purchased on the secondary market. The people who own them get exactly the same vacation experience.

So, the obvious question is why are the prices of the two so different? I think the answer lies in the fact that timeshare is a product that is sold, not bought. Very few people wake up in the morning with the idea that they will buy a fractional interest in a vacation condo that obligates them to a lifetime of ongoing maintenance costs. But, lots of people end their days having done just that.

There are also some timeshares that do provide different experiences, depending on how you buy them. Some of them are modest--an earlier check-in time, a free local paper, etc. Others are quite substantial. For example, resale Diamond timeshares do not have full system privileges, and revert to the underlying collection from which they are drawn, unless you buy some additional points from Diamond to "re-qualify" the purchase. Such differences are becoming more common, and more significant. DVC's newest resort has full system privileges when you buy from Disney, but only privileges at that particular resort if you buy it on the secondary market.

I expect more timeshare systems to have differences in the future, and they will be more substantial.


----------



## easyrider (May 15, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Good points. Another question I wonder about is why do people on TUG get so addicted to timeshares and want to know every nitty gritty detail about them? Especially when TUG is often calling TSs a scam.



I like to know the details of the timeshare systems and resorts I purchase so I can better use them. I don't consider the timeshare a scam but have seen the sales process being a scam occasionally and the exit programs being a scam most of the time.

Bill


----------



## AJCts411 (May 15, 2019)

Not sure if you can equate cars to timeshares...but.  On one hand when you buy a new car, you know it will depreciate.  And when you buy real property you expect it to appreciate.  TS, you pay maintenance fees to presumably  keep the property in good condition and thus NOT loose value.  But, in TS you buy from the "dealer" developer, who then turns around and does everything possible to devalue your purchase, will not even consider a trade in, then sometimes you have to send it to the junkyard and even they will not take it.  Point is the whole exit mess is what is causing the perception of a scam.  People expectation that property appreciates probability also clouds their decision making process.  My TS, I bought to use, and over 3 years they owe me zero, as compared to local vacation rentals or hotels. I find good value in them.  But then again, I don't stay at Red Roof or camp out.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 15, 2019)

AJCts411 said:


> Not sure if you can equate cars to timeshares...but.  On one hand when you buy a new car, you know it will depreciate.  And when you buy real property you expect it to appreciate.  TS, you pay maintenance fees to presumably  keep the property in good condition and thus NOT loose value.  But, in TS you buy from the "dealer" developer, who then turns around and does everything possible to devalue your purchase, will not even consider a trade in, then sometimes you have to send it to the junkyard and even they will not take it.  Point is the whole exit mess is what is causing the perception of a scam.  People expectation that property appreciates probability also clouds their decision making process.  My TS, I bought to use, and over 3 years they owe me zero, as compared to local vacation rentals or hotels. I find good value in them.  But then again, I don't stay at Red Roof or camp out.



Agree with the point
But. Timeshares have been around a long time and people should know by now that they do not appreciate 

They don’t necessarily depreciate just because they are timeshares
They depreciate because there is a lot of people trying to sell them therefore there’s a lot of used inventory 

The car thought? 
 If Ford flooded the market with the exact same truck as mine and there were a lot of owners who after buying it did not like it for one reason or another, what would happen if they all tried to sell their truck at the same time?

Supply and demand would kick in
They flood the market so that drives the “ value “ of my truck down as well as the selling price they can get for the one they want out of


----------



## WinniWoman (May 15, 2019)

bdfitzp said:


> From someone who purchased from developer I have no regrets.  I felt I was not scammed. I admit I was not familiar about resales at the time but even after learning I still am happy with my decision. Someone has to be the original purchaser or these fabulous resorts would not exist. So for all those who brag about how they love their timeshares they were able to  purchase resale, maybe just a little appreciation and thank you for us "original purchasers" who made your life a little more enjoyable.




Us, too and we never regretted it and it was totally worth it financially. We knew exactly what we were getting into.

Several years ago when we acquired a free one, we felt like we won the lottery! LOL!


----------



## bluehende (May 15, 2019)

Timeshares are not scams, but many companies operating in the space are scammers.  And I do not exclude some well known companies.


----------



## ski_sierra (May 15, 2019)

Timeshares obey Heisenberg uncertainty principle. They are a scam and a good deal at the same time.

Timesharing is not intuitive especially to people who grew up with the internet. I can see how it made sense to sell condos as timeshares when there was no easy way to connect owners with renters. But now we have services like VRBO, booking.com, AirBnB, Craigslist. People are working within the existing system but if someone was looking at the vacation accommodation problem with fresh eyes today, the solution would be very different than a timeshare.

Before I joined TUG couple of months ago, the only thing I had read about timeshares was it is a scam. I still believe it is a scam for a large majority of the people out there. And the people who get scammed subsidize the people who use timeshares to their advantage like TUGgers. The system is not fair and depending on which side you end up on you will feel like it's a scam or it's a great deal. Similarities exist in many places. High expense ratio active funds create a highly efficient stock market that index fund investors take advantage of. High interest paying people subsidize people who take advantage of credit card rewards. Many people pay property taxes but only a few utilize the benefits of libraries, parks, recreation centers, etc.

There are weird and archaic rules in timesharing which are not worth learning for people who don't vacation often. But the complexity means there are opportunities for people who are informed.  It's fun to figure out how to be on the winning side. But if you miss a step, you could be on the losing side.


----------



## Big Matt (May 15, 2019)

I would argue that the car buying experience is similar to that of buying a timeshare.  Sales people have all of the information and you have little.  They sell you on the new shiny thing,  but never tell you about maintenance (fees) or taxes.  They ask you how much you can afford to pay monthly instead of the amount of interest you will pay. 

The sales process is very sleazy.  Educated buyers can get great bargains for both used cars and resale timeshares.  I for one believe that what I get in terms of value and flexibility with my timeshares far outpaces what I get from renting, hotels, etc.


----------



## jme (May 15, 2019)

Big Matt said:


> I for one believe that what I get in terms of* value and flexibility with my timeshares *far outpaces what I get from* renting, hotels, etc.*



Same for me, Big Matt, not even close.  But admittedly that's our dumb luck, buying at the right time in our lives,

with several additional purchases being resales prior to 2010, and enrolling everything we could. For us both, we were lucky.


----------



## OldGuy (May 15, 2019)

Gypsy65 said:


> This post may get a lot of backlash
> 
> But I own timeshares and purchased them with the idea they were not an investment but they gave me a nicer place or places to stay at than a hotel
> 
> ...



So, the summarize, something you are lied to to get you to buy it, and you pay, say $25,000 for, when people are trying to give the same thing away for free, and then you can't get rid of it, so you have to keep paying additional fees for something you do not use, _ad infinitum_, is not a bad deal.

OK


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 15, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> So, the summarize, something you are lied to to get you to buy it, and you pay, say $25,000 for, when people are trying to give the same thing away for free, and then you can't get rid of it, so you have to keep paying additional fees for something you do not use, _ad infinitum_, is not a bad deal.
> 
> OK



Swing and a miss!!

Read the points. Not just mine.
People are taken advantage of all the time. Myself included
But guess what? It’s still up to each person to know good from bad. Lie or not
My post about supply and demand should help

The guy who makes $12 an hour. Has 9 kids. An old beat up mini van and 10x50 trailer is the guy who shouldn’t buy
New or used


There’s no monetary value with timeshares. Never has been. I knew that when I was 16
The value is the vacations if you can afford more than 1 a year. And the ease of it all
The resort purchases make sense if you like the extra perks you might get

We get a lot of perks but we own at a much different level than most do or ever will

It doesn’t work or make sense for everyone
I ride bikes but I don’t get online and complain about how they are a waste of $ and they don’t work at all for me and my 15 kids

Sure. Sales guy never really said it would. But he did sell the freedom factor

And for those who ride they know the value of that

It isn’t that the $30,000 bike that dropped to $15,000 the first year


----------



## OldGuy (May 15, 2019)

Your points are just as valid now as they were 25 years ago.  Well, maybe not quite, but I might have made the same ones myself back then.

Have fun on your bike.


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 16, 2019)

I must say in the outset I used to own timeshares but now just rent.

Saying that, I don’t see timeshares as a scam. The developer is very detailed on the mountain of forms you sign on the dotted line. If you don’t read them, that’s your fault.

If you buy resale, it is up to you to do your due diligence by researching the prospective timeshare beforehand. Know what you Are buying before you buy it.

I know many folks here who love their timeshares and get wonderful use out of them. The only regrets I hear is they should have bought resale right off the bat.

Yes, I know some salespeople lie. That’s why you MUST read everything before you sign and anything promised that was not added needs to be added in your written documents.

Remember, it’s what you signed that counts.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (May 16, 2019)

They are and they aren't. The underlying concept is good, if you limited it to the target population (which is a very small portion of the total population) and had a sales methodology that didn't lead to inappropriate selling.

Unfortunately, the massive up-front profit on the initial sale, leads to the abuses seen. This is compounded by the owner restrictions many timeshares place on the owners - such as limits on commercial renting.

But as long as there are people who can be convinced to buy timeshares new, the status quo will remain.


----------



## Brett (May 16, 2019)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> They are and they aren't. The underlying concept is good, if you limited it to the target population (which is a very small portion of the total population) and had a sales methodology that didn't lead to inappropriate selling.
> 
> Unfortunately, the massive up-front profit on the initial sale, leads to the abuses seen. This is compounded by the owner restrictions many timeshares place on the owners - such as limits on commercial renting.
> 
> But as long as there are people who can be convinced to buy timeshares new, the status quo will remain.




right, especially true with timeshares -  Don't buy New !
(become knowledgeable through TUG then buy resales)


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 16, 2019)

I don’t totally agree with only resales 
From the resort is a screw job no doubt but if the additional benefits or perks outweigh the cost then that’s the only way you’re going to get them 

Resorts are working pretty hard to make that gap as far apart as possible as they know that’s how they’re going to sell value in their product 

At least that’s how I see it playing our with ours


----------



## Big Matt (May 16, 2019)

Let me be clear about my experience.  I bought my first timeshare at retail price, but I knew exactly what I wanted.  I couldn't get a lock off at Manor Club and would have had to wait a few years until they showed up in the secondary market.  I paid cash and I believe it was something like $17k.  A lot of money 15-20 years ago, but I've got way more value by trading both parts into places like Grande Ocean, Newport Coast, Hawaii.....places that are far more expensive.  I also bought a resale lock off at Grande Vista for $7k.  That was an even better purchase.  You have to look at it over a 25-40 year period to understand the math.  I never intend to sell mine either.  My kids will get them at some point.

Finally, the most important things that I've received by buying timeshares are:  *Memories*


----------



## geist1223 (May 16, 2019)

We know 99% of the people say buy only resell. With Developer Points in Worldmark we have direct Booking access to WMSP.  In a less than a 10 year period of time (November 2010 to February 2020) we have made will make 4 trips to New Zealand and Australia. Also WMSP has bought into timeshares in Tuscany and Bavaria. And they are looking at Resorts in Japan. With DRI Developer Hawaiian Club besides trips to Hawaii we have traveled to France and Mexico. Yes we know we could try and trade through RCI or II with resell Points. But that is always a chance game that Resorts will become available when and where we want to go.


----------



## silentg (May 16, 2019)

Timeshares confuse a lot of people. My father always thought they were a waste of money. My mother bought a week at a timeshare auction, so did my sister.
IMHO they never used the timeshares properly. My Dad liked to trade thru RCI into another timeshare he liked better. My mother liked her timeshare but she traded thru RCI to please my Dad.
He complained about exchange fees, membership and maintenance. But he enjoyed going away I tried to help him understand the concept, but he felt like real estate should have a better resale value, telling him he was buying vacation time never rang true to him. My sister hardly uses her timeshare weeks she prefers to go on cruises and rent hotels. Sometimes she exchanges her week but only stays a couple of days.
We try to make use of all our timeshares. I’ve been doing trades thru TUG mostly and have sold a few weeks on TUG too.
I’m still not an expert Timeshare user but I know how to say no to presentation or free lunch, tell them I have lots of plans and not wasting time listening to a sales pitch.
Of course I try to word it as pleasantly as possible.
I don’t think timeshares are a scam, but I won’t buy from a developer again!
Silentg


----------



## Bailey#1 (May 16, 2019)

To me my timeshares has been a blessing, but I went into it with some knowledge (always bought resale). That is the difference between a good purchase and a scam.

To me purchasing new snowmobiles has been my biggest mistake (think little snow, insurance, trail passes, back aches, near frostbite, repairs and more repairs,  and teenagers living at home) but timeshares has been my best purchase.


----------



## OldGuy (May 16, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Your points are just as valid now as they were 25 years ago.  Well, maybe not quite, but I might have made the same ones myself back then.


----------



## OldGuy (May 16, 2019)

Using the word _scam_ is like using the word _spying_.  It means different things to different people.

All-in-all, the timeshare industry could be tad more forthright.


----------



## jehb2 (May 16, 2019)

When ever I start singing the praises of timesharing I tell people that they need to beware that there are a lot of scummy people in the industry.


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 16, 2019)

jehb2 said:


> When ever I start singing the praises of timesharing I tell people that they need to beware that there are a lot of scummy people in the industry.



I agree but even the scummy people in the industry need to disclose and have you sign that you agree with the terms. That’s the law and it’s consistent in every state. If it’s not in writing and signed off, you can refuse and win. So, that’s why you must do your homework and read before you sign off. Otherwise, it’s your fault if you feel you are scammed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 16, 2019)

Without giving too many details a timeshare resort wanted to add fees and charges that were new. I refused to pay. They said contract. I told them I have a copy of the exact same contract and no where did I agree to these terms and crossed out and initialled that they can change terms at anytime.

They backed down.

I sold that one years ago but it was the contract that helped me, not them that time. It also helped the new owner who was very pleased that I crossed that clause out before signing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jehb2 (May 16, 2019)

Every time I go to an owners update they try to get me to upgrade and offer me a special deal of 50:1 HHonors points.  Depending on the hotel that exchange might get me 1.5-2 hotel nights for my 7 timeshare nights.  Most people don’t realize that.  The sales people don’t tell you that.  There’s a lot they don’t tell you. In fact they outright lie.  

We could start a thread “Lies my timeshare sales person told me.”

I have been timesharing since 1999.  I absolutely love timesharing.  My family and I have had nothing but great experiences.  But timeshare sales people lie.  In my last several updates I have actually told them point blank that something they said is not true.


----------



## mentalbreak (May 16, 2019)

jehb2 said:


> We could start a thread “Lies my timeshare sales person told me.”



I like this idea!


----------



## jehb2 (May 16, 2019)

easyrider said:


> I don't consider the timeshare a scam...



Owners of The Manhattan Club in NYC were scammed.

https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/ag-...ettlement-midtown-manhattan-timeshare-scammed


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 16, 2019)

jehb2 said:


> Owners of The Manhattan Club in NYC were scammed.



There are always isolated cases where a resort goes bad. This true in every industry.

As I recall, there was a criminal investigation of wrongdoings there. 

I know of one other resort who was alleged to do similar and the CEO got 30 years plus all assets taken and distributed to owners so there are consequences for those who scam in the industry.

Overall, good names are in the industry like Hilton and Disney and Marriott. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jehb2 (May 16, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> There are always isolated cases where a resort goes bad...



There are so many cases gone bad in Mexico that the the government has an office dedicated to helping victims—PROFECO.


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 16, 2019)

jehb2 said:


> There are so many cases gone bad in Mexico that the the government has an office dedicated to helping victims—PROFECO.



I love Mexico and go there often. Unfortunately, they do have a corruption challenge. I suppose one has to know the country they are dealing with before they lay their hard earned cash down. 

Frankly, there are many countries I wouldn’t buy a timeshare from. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jehb2 (May 16, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> Yes, I know some salespeople lie. That’s why you MUST read everything before you sign...



Westgate hides their cancellation/rescind forms in a hidden pocket.

https://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/westgate-cancellation-secret-pocket.html


----------



## Sugarcubesea (May 16, 2019)

I've purchased all of my timeshares via resale and I feel I got a bargain on each and every one. I use my timeshares and could not stay in the locations I stay in for less then what I pay in MF's per year...


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 16, 2019)

jehb2 said:


> Westgate hides their cancellation/rescind forms in a hidden pocket.
> 
> https://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/westgate-cancellation-secret-pocket.html



True, but you must legally sign directly below where it states that you have the right to rescind within x days depending on the state. If you read before you signed you would know this as it must be in font 14 bold letters.

I agree, if they are doing this it is slimy. But, in a court of law all they have to show is your signature directly below the bold disclosure. If that is not present, you can dump them and sue for misrepresentation and perhaps fraud plus you can recover all costs and interest at prescribed state rates.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 16, 2019)

This is why I still think it should be required to have a buyer and seller lawyer in all timeshare transactions. Most timeshares are real property and should have the same formality. This would solve so many issues and allegations. This also gives a natural cool down time and safety by having a lawyer look at all documents and advise.

Back room sign parties lead room for allegations after the execution of documents. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## easyrider (May 16, 2019)

jehb2 said:


> Owners of The Manhattan Club in NYC were scammed.
> 
> https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/ag-...ettlement-midtown-manhattan-timeshare-scammed



We stayed at the Manhatten Club in a one bedroom unit through a RCI exchange. Our total cost was under $1000 for the week. I felt sorry for the owners. Good to know they received some relief.

Bill


----------



## OldGuy (May 17, 2019)

jehb2 said:


> We could start a thread “Lies my timeshare sales person told me.”



& the things they sorta forgot to tell me


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 17, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> & the things they sorta forgot to tell me



Ok who is worse...timeshare or used car sales people?  Toss up?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## OldGuy (May 18, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> Ok who is worse...timeshare or used car sales people?  Toss up?
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



They mate & produce used timeshare people.
- - - - - -
Scam?  What scam?

(Sometimes, some operations just plain are . . . ignorant, uninformed, gullible, over-trusting people/victims or not.)

https://www.bbb.org/us/mo/branson/p...nds-resort-services-llc-0734-29040/complaints


----------



## WinniWoman (May 19, 2019)

Our timeshare salesperson  at Smugglers Notch was wonderful and did not lie to us. We bought directly form the resort and have owned it for so many years it was worth every penny.

Now that it has Wyndham involved in the sales process, they have sleazy salespeople there. So we have to deal with them at check-in. Well- let me correct that- I refuse to deal with them at check in and let them know it.

At our Pollard Brook one, which we acquired for free in 2015, no one bothers us with sales pitches thankfully.


----------



## OldGuy (May 20, 2019)

*WHO WE ARE*
*The Time Share Users Group (TUG) has been Providing the truth about timeshares to owners for over 25 years! The Timeshare User's Group, started in 1993 by a group of Timeshare Owners just like yourself, is a family run self-help organization providing an unbiased source of consumer oriented information and advice on Timeshares and the Timeshare concept. Here at TUG you get the truth about timeshares for FREE! 

TUG cuts through the lies & "BS" providing the Truth about Timeshares!

Count yourself as one of the lucky ones, you have found the first and largest Timeshare resource site on the internet! No matter what the Topic or question, you will find honest answers provided by the tens of thousands of timeshare owners already part of the TUG family. Plus you will build wonderful relationships with other owners who are just like you!

The most common quote we hear from new members is "I wish I had known about TUG before I bought my first Timeshare!"
*
If aspects of timesharing were/are not _suspect_, why did Bill find it necessary to start TUG?  Why was it necessary to expose the _truth_?  And, why are there new posts almost every day revealing ongoing scammy-ness, 26 years later?  Why would you even ask if there are timeshare scams?

Sorta like someone saying, "I am not a crook."


----------



## jehb2 (May 20, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> If aspects of timesharing were/are not _suspect_, why did Bill find it necessary to start TUG? Why was it necessary to expose the _truth_? And, why are there new posts almost every day revealing ongoing scammy-ness, 26 years later? Why would you even ask if there are timeshare scams?
> 
> Sorta like someone saying, "I am not a crook."



And OldGuy drops the mic!


----------



## Iggyearl (May 20, 2019)

I spent all of last week at Bay Lake Towers in Disneyworld.  Renting - not owning.  At every kiosk I saw at the parks, there were people wanting to know details from the attendants.  Conversations.  No "interviews."  Every owner I met loved their Disney timeshare.  The concept of "timesharing" is NOT a scam.  The implementation by some companies IS. 

 The big "gift."  Followed by the 90 minute presentation that never lasts 90 minutes.  The pressure to buy TODAY.  The verbal representations that get thrown out because of the contract clause refuting verbal representations.  The use of 3-4 sales persons who need to make a sale to live.  The hurried signing of a LIFETIME contract that never gets mentioned by a salesperson.  The stack of papers that may be on a electronic device that seniors can't understand.  The non-mention of the rescission period.  And the unavailability to log on to the company website until the rescission period has expired.  And, lastly the non-mention that the whole complete contract is virtually worthless the day after the rescission period expires.  Yes, SOME timeshares are a scam.  Especially to the uninitiated.


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 20, 2019)

Iggyearl said:


> I spent all of last week at Bay Lake Towers in Disneyworld.  Renting - not owning.  At every kiosk I saw at the parks, there were people wanting to know details from the attendants.  Conversations.  No "interviews."  Every owner I met loved their Disney timeshare.  The concept of "timesharing" is NOT a scam.  The implementation by some companies IS.
> 
> The big "gift."  Followed by the 90 minute presentation that never lasts 90 minutes.  The pressure to buy TODAY.  The verbal representations that get thrown out because of the contract clause refuting verbal representations.  The use of 3-4 sales persons who need to make a sale to live.  The hurried signing of a LIFETIME contract that never gets mentioned by a salesperson.  The stack of papers that may be on a electronic device that seniors can't understand.  The non-mention of the rescission period.  And the unavailability to log on to the company website until the rescission period has expired.  And, lastly the non-mention that the whole complete contract is virtually worthless the day after the rescission period expires.  Yes, SOME timeshares are a scam.  Especially to the uninitiated.



Ah the trinket trick!

Works every Time!

Reminds me of when the Indians traded expensive beaver pelts for a cheap bottle of liquor.

That’s why I never accept any gift and never go to presentations. I’ll buy my own liquor and pay for my own adventures thank you very much!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## joestein (May 21, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Our timeshare salesperson  at Smugglers Notch was wonderful and did not lie to us. We bought directly form the resort and have owned it for so many years it was worth every penny.
> 
> Now that it has Wyndham involved in the sales process, they have sleazy salespeople there. So we have to deal with them at check-in. Well- let me correct that- I refuse to deal with them at check in and let them know it.
> 
> At our Pollard Brook one, which we acquired for free in 2015, no one bothers us with sales pitches thankfully.



My one time at Smugglers Notch, the check in woman was so nice and begged us to sign up for an update, my wife did.    Once at the update, she looked up my record and found that I am a member of TUG.   She got very nasty quickly and believed that we go on these updates purposefully to aggravate the sales people.  

The few times we go to the update we always get sent to a 'special' person.

Joe


----------



## joestein (May 21, 2019)

Iggyearl said:


> I spent all of last week at Bay Lake Towers in Disneyworld.  Renting - not owning.  At every kiosk I saw at the parks, there were people wanting to know details from the attendants.  Conversations.  No "interviews."  Every owner I met loved their Disney timeshare.  The concept of "timesharing" is NOT a scam.  The implementation by some companies IS.
> 
> The big "gift."  Followed by the 90 minute presentation that never lasts 90 minutes.  The pressure to buy TODAY.  The verbal representations that get thrown out because of the contract clause refuting verbal representations.  The use of 3-4 sales persons who need to make a sale to live.  The hurried signing of a LIFETIME contract that never gets mentioned by a salesperson.  The stack of papers that may be on a electronic device that seniors can't understand.  The non-mention of the rescission period.  And the unavailability to log on to the company website until the rescission period has expired.  And, lastly the non-mention that the whole complete contract is virtually worthless the day after the rescission period expires.  Yes, SOME timeshares are a scam.  Especially to the uninitiated.



Iggy, I am just curious, what size unit did you have and how much did you pay to rent.   How does it compare to maintenance paid?


----------



## OldGuy (May 21, 2019)

Sure, compared to Wastegate, _et al_, DVC is relatively innocent.  But even there, not everyone is happy:

https://www.bbb.org/us/fl/celebrati...e/disney-vacation-club-0733-102655/complaints

Of course, one could spend the day/week/month scouring the internet for unhappy DVC owners, or any timeshare group.

I believe that greatest enemy of timeshare is public opinion, and each of the shortcomings of the industry goes to fuel that negative public opinion.  I don't point out anything that others are not already pointing out; I'm just doing it in a place where something might be done about it.

Squeaky wheel sorta thing.  

Actually, it works, but slowly.


----------



## OldGuy (May 21, 2019)

joestein said:


> My one time at Smugglers Notch, the check in woman was so nice and begged us to sign up for an update, my wife did.    Once at the update, she looked up my record and found that I am a member of TUG.   She got very nasty quickly and believed that we go on these updates purposefully to aggravate the sales people.
> 
> The few times we go to the update we always get sent to a 'special' person.
> 
> Joe



I'm chuckling because a couple years ago at one of our resorts, actually where we live and own for amenities rights, they added that second table a couple years ago, with the pretext of going there to get your pool passes.  When I checked in, the new person at the second table started to greet me, and the check-in person said something like, "No, no, just give him the passes."



The last time we went on a "tour" (at Wastegate) was the last time we went on a tour.  After we ate breakfast and answered the "Pretalk" questions, revealing our use of timeshares and Internet rentals, our rep told us to wait right there, and he went outside to smoke a cigarette.  I got a few more scrambled eggs and link sausages.

He never came back.  

After that, DW said that if I ever wanted to do a tour again, I would have to go with her brother.



Other than the size of the room (which wasn't there 30 years ago) nothing much had changed in 30 years.


----------



## OldGuy (May 21, 2019)

Let's just be honest . . . without all the bells and whistles, the dog and pony show, the trinkets, the_ hyperbole, _there would be no timeshares.  People don't just wake up one day and say, "Honey, you know what we need . . . . "

&, it is that _hyberbole (_hyperbole being the exact word to describe timeshare sales presentations), that leads to dissatisfaction, and people wanting out because it is not what was represented.

So, call it whatever you want.


----------



## SteelerGal (May 21, 2019)

I do hate how they tie parking passes to presentations.  Rented Wyndham as a last minute Spring Break trip.  I politely declined by explaining we own at the competitors, MVC.  When that didn’t work, I firmly explained I have a son w/ Autism and daycare is never an option.  All for a darn parking pass.  Grrrr


----------



## OldGuy (May 21, 2019)

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...ner-update-new-endless-escapes-policy.283291/


----------



## bluehende (May 21, 2019)

I hate that dance also.  I usually end it by saying fairly loudly that if I do not get my pass now the next few minutes will not be enjoyed by you, me, and every other person in this room.


----------



## OldGuy (May 21, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Especially when TUG is often calling TSs a scam.



I have not picked up on that.

The preponderance of TUG is timeshare-lovers loving their timeshares with other timeshare lovers loving their timeshares.  

Historically, there has been a bit of self-pride, pride-in-ownership-for-what-I-own, self-righteousness, gloating, bragging, and the like, but the preponderance is that timeshares are good and we are here to make them even better.

This is not, primarily, a timeshare complaint forum.  The Internet is full of those.

However, in recent years, for many reasons, issues with timeshares have become more prevalent.


----------



## OldGuy (May 21, 2019)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I've purchased all of my timeshares via resale and I feel I got a bargain on each and every one.



When you buy resale, no one has oversold you, there's no false promises, and no unfulfilled expectations.


----------



## TravelTime (May 21, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> I have not picked up on that.
> 
> The preponderance of TUG is timeshare-lovers loving their timeshares with other timeshare lovers loving their timeshares.
> 
> ...



It is everywhere on TUG. Mostly anger toward developers for being “greedy” and “corporations out to make a profit.” Things like that are pretty common on TUG. Almost daily if not more. I can’t believe there are greedy corporations trying to make their business as profitable as possible! I thought USA was moving away from capitalism. Maybe it is time for the government to own the developers so the rich can subsidize the poor on vacation. No more MFs just income-adjusted usage fees.


----------



## OldGuy (May 21, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> It is everywhere on TUG. Mostly anger toward developers for being “greedy” and “corporations out to make a profit.” Things like that are pretty common on TUG. Almost daily if not more. I can’t believe there are greedy corporations trying to make their business as profitable as possible! I thought USA was moving away from capitalism. Maybe it is time for the government to own the developers so the rich can subsidize the poor on vacation. No more MFs just income-adjusted usage fees.



Back in the day we just called that nickel and diming.

What I was trying to say, and I admit I do not always say what I am trying to say, is that I get a lot of flack for my position on things, that of wanting to do my best to clean up things that make timesharing undesirable for the masses, and I look at where those critical of me own, and I take a look at those places, and I see $1200, $1500, $2000 maintenance fees, and I figure if prominent people on TUG are paying fees like that, and everything is hunky dory with them and their timeshares, then there's not much complaining going on.

Those folks are in a whole different world than we would ever be, so it's hard to have a level discussion.

What I really wonder, and this is carried over from another thread, is what, exactly, *are they afraid of when it comes to resorts offering a deedback program?*


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 21, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Back in the day we just called that nickel and diming.
> 
> What I was trying to say, and I admit I do not always say what I am trying to say, is that I get a lot of flack for my position on things, that of wanting to do my best to clean up things that make timesharing undesirable for the masses, and I look at where those critical of me own, and I take a look at those places, and I see $1200, $1500, $2000 maintenance fees, and I figure if prominent people on TUG are paying fees like that, and everything is hunky dory with them and their timeshares, then there's not much complaining going on.
> 
> ...



I think the bottom line is 

YOU sign up for it!

Regardless of how you feel now, the full contract ready and eager for you to sign and initial 100 plus items agreeing to the terms puts you in “meeting of the minds” as the law puts it.

All the contracts I have read state:

1. The resorts reserves the right to change any term at anytime for any reason....initial here
2. Maintenance fees are required on a yearly basis and these fees can change at anytime...initial here
3. The resort reserves the right to charge special assessments at anytime for any reason. Initial here.
4. The resorts can charge added fees it deems fit at anytime. Initial here.

No one puts a gun to your head to sign. You can get up and walk.

So why complain. You agreed to it.

If they are “greedy” in your opinion, it really doesn’t matter because you agreed to it.

That’s why it’s not a scam. The contract discloses everything. Many states also require a public report which also clearly outlines how the resort is governed. The documents are public record and available. Many states require you to sign that you have read,understood and agree to the public report to boot.

If you don’t read it, that’s your fault. Plan and simple.

If you sign it and don’t know what you are signing that’s your fault too.

All you can do is sell if you want out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 21, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Back in the day we just called that nickel and diming.
> 
> What I was trying to say, and I admit I do not always say what I am trying to say, is that I get a lot of flack for my position on things, that of wanting to do my best to clean up things that make timesharing undesirable for the masses, and I look at where those critical of me own, and I take a look at those places, and I see $1200, $1500, $2000 maintenance fees, and I figure if prominent people on TUG are paying fees like that, and everything is hunky dory with them and their timeshares, then there's not much complaining going on.
> 
> ...



Maybe I’m missing your point
Are you asking why resorts don’t have a deedback program??

I’m not defending the resorts in any way but
Why should they refund and take a deed back?
The resorts owe you the buyer a refund as much as a $1000 per meal restaurant owes you a refund after you already had dinner.
If you notice on the menu that the meals are $1000 and you have $5. Don’t go in

Most people should NEVER buy timeshare. Most people cannot afford timeshares and it’s those people for the most part that complain the loudest

The masses as you say

I for one pay way more on my timeshare than any motel 6 would ever cost me but if I knew I would die tomorrow I wouldn’t look back and say “ I wish I hadn’t done that “
Pretty sure I would be saying “ I wish I had done more of that “
Screw job or not. I’m a big boy and don’t need the developers or the government to hold my hand and bail me out every time I make a bad mistake

Look at many wealthy people. Most all made horrible decisions but stood up, learned from them, and went on to give it another shot. Eventually making good decisions that paid off

My monies on the pony that bought timeshares and got ripped off that they’ll never do it twice!!

Again. Maybe I misunderstood your post. If so then so be it


----------



## OldGuy (May 21, 2019)

Because, simply, none of that (forcing people to continue timeshare servitude) makes timesharing more desirable with the general public, and just increases dissatisfaction and animosity toward the resort and the industry.

Why would a business intentionally conduct itself in a manner that makes people dislike them?

Why, exactly, are those opposed to deedbacks afraid of deedbacks?

As timeshare-lovers, why not just hang with other timeshare-lovers, and let those who want to leave, leave, with a fair price to the resort?


----------



## OldGuy (May 21, 2019)

Pardon me, but screw the 25 page contract.  Life is full of stuff we scroll, and click that we agree to, accept, but never read.

If an owner said, "I paid all of that $25,000 at the beginning. I've been giving you $1000 m/l every year since.  You've given me a week's vacation every year.  We're even.  You keep the $25,000.  I'll give you another $1000, and let's call it quits."

That's what I'm trying to figure out why people are afraid of allowing.


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 21, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Pardon me, but screw the 25 page contract.  Life is full of stuff we scroll, and click that we agree to, accept, but never read.
> 
> If an owner said, "I paid all of that $25,000 at the beginning. I've been giving you $1000 m/l every year since.  You've given me a week's vacation every year.  We're even.  You keep the $25,000.  I'll give you another $1000, and let's call it quits."
> 
> That's what I'm trying to figure out people are afraid of allowing.



Yes, I see your deed back question. Getting out for a k can be a good deal. I think people prefer to whine then get out and move on. It’s nice to be portrayed as a victim. If they made a mistake, the deed backs are a solution that people don’t take because they are too stuck in victim mode.

I personally never sign, click or do anything without reading it. If I don’t agree, I walk. Again, my fault if I don’t. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## OldGuy (May 21, 2019)

I guess in real life a lot of people are not as conscientious, thoughtful, financially responsible, forthright, honest, above-board, and, in general, all-round superior, as folks on TUG.

But, even being that, and even reading every word, and even being 100% committed to it, stuff happens.  

So, *what is it that those who are opposed to deedbacks are afraid of?*

(Still looking for an answer.)


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 21, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> I guess in real life a lot of people are not as conscientious, thoughtful, financially responsible, forthright, honest, above-board, and, in general, all-round superior, as folks on TUG.
> 
> But, even being that, and even reading every word, and even being 100% committed to it, stuff happens.
> 
> ...



I think you are looking for a certain answer. One plausible reason or answer was provided.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## OldGuy (May 21, 2019)

What I think I saw was an opinion as to why some people would not take advantage of an offer of a deedback, because they like to whine and play the victim.  Is that what you mean?

What I'm trying to find out is *why owners would object to their resort offering deedbacks*, say as I laid out four posts above?


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 21, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> What I think I saw was an opinion as to why some people would not take advantage of an offer of a deedback, because they like to whine and play the victim.  Is that what you mean?
> 
> What I'm trying to find out is *why owners would object to their resort offering deedbacks*, say as I laid out four posts above?



Yes, that’s what I mean. 

People complain all the time about different things but when you tell them to do something about it they do nothing to fix the problem. If they fix the problem, they have nothing to complain about.

Why?

Because they just want to whine or vent. It’s human nature. 




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 21, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> Yes, that’s what I mean.
> 
> People complain all the time about different things but when you tell them to do something about it they do nothing to fix the problem. If they fix the problem, they can’t complain anymore.
> 
> ...






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## OldGuy (May 21, 2019)

That does not answer why owners are opposed to their resort offering deedbacks.

Anyone else . . . have an answer for that?


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 21, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> That does not answer why owners are opposed to their resort offering deedbacks.



Fear has nothing to do with this. They whine over paying to give it back. They whine over the rising costs, etc....

They refuse to pay to give the thing back because they feel they have lost enough money. They see it as a never ending money pit. It’s not fear but anger over the way things are and getting their back up over paying some fee to give it back. So, they do nothing but whine.


So your question is better phrase as

Why don’t people use the resort deedback program? 

Then you have your answer.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 21, 2019)

If the deedback was free, the opposition would be way less.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 21, 2019)

Lastly, when you feel ripped off, financially raped and taken advantage of, you are very resistant to pay anymore even it paying the fee stops the bleeding.

I am sure in life you had a situation where you felt cheated and you refused to give one dime more to “those crooks” (as you perceive it)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 21, 2019)

People hate loss. That’s why many would rather watch a bad stock pick go to zero than sell and take a hit....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 21, 2019)

People are notoriously irrational when money is involved. Deedback is the rational solution but you can’t get people to budge when they are angry and have their back up. Their judgement is clouded by anger and a sense of loss already. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## OldGuy (May 22, 2019)

I keep asking why owners do not want their resort to offer deedbacks, and you keep giving your opinion as to why people who want out of their timeshares (not the other owners I'm asking about) do not use deedbacks, so I'll quit trying to find out why owners do not want their resorts to offer deedbacks.

I'll go put it in a different thread, where it belongs.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 22, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> I keep asking why owners do not want their resort to offer deedbacks, and you keep giving your opinion as to why people who want out of their timeshares (not the other owners I'm asking about) do not use deedbacks, so I'll quit trying to find out why owners do not want their resorts to offer deedbacks.
> 
> I'll go put it in a different thread, where it belongs.



No kidding

You posted the question as to why this thread was even started. Yet you have posted the most!!


----------



## TravelTime (May 22, 2019)

As an owner, I would only want a deedback program if it benefits owners. I do not want to subsidize people who are financial losers and do not know how to use their programs or do not want to pay MFs anymore. I like the Marriott does buy back points and properties to put in the trust when it makes economic sense.


----------



## OldGuy (May 22, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> As an owner, I would only want a deedback program if it benefits owners. I do not want to subsidize people who are financial losers and do not know how to use their programs or do not want to pay MFs anymore. I like the Marriott does buy back points and properties to put in the trust when it makes economic sense.



Here's the way I presented it up yonder:

*If an owner said, "I paid all of that $25,000 at the beginning. I've been giving you $1000 m/l every year since. You've given me a week's vacation every year. We're even. You keep the $25,000. I'll give you another $1000, and let's call it quits."*

Would you be opposed to that?


----------



## OldGuy (May 22, 2019)

By the way, the _concept _of timeshare *is* legitimate and clever, a real business.

It's one of those things that you just have to wonder how it came about.

I'm picturing a small group with several 6-packs of Old Milwaukee.  At some point, someone said, "Let's build and sell condos. We could get $100,000 for each one."  Then, someone said, "What if we could sell a condo in 50 one-week pieces for $25,000 each.  We could get (pulling the pocket calculator out of their vest pocket) . . . . $1,250,000!"

Of course, someone who was still sober said, "That'll never happen."

Seriously, a college friend of mine developed the concept that became Hooters, and it wasn't all that much different than that scenario.


----------



## geist1223 (May 22, 2019)

We know a lot of people think timeshares are a scam. But then maybe they do not understand how to use them. We know we would not have traveled to all the places we have over that last 16.5 years without timeshares.


----------



## TravelTime (May 22, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Here's the way I presented it up yonder:
> 
> *If an owner said, "I paid all of that $25,000 at the beginning. I've been giving you $1000 m/l every year since. You've given me a week's vacation every year. We're even. You keep the $25,000. I'll give you another $1000, and let's call it quits."*
> 
> Would you be opposed to that?



Maybe that would be okay, assuming it benefits the current owners. Otherwise, I think people need to keep their commitments or find their own way out. That would be like in 2008-2012 when homeowners were just walking away from mortgages because they could not afford to make payments. I thought this was a terrible thing. We let many people benefit from this at the time. Who wants to subsidize free loaders? In principle it is bad for people to just walk away from debts.

BTW, Marriott and some others do offer deed back programs. Not sure why you keep asking this question. I am in favor of it when it makes financial sense for the developer and the current owners.


----------



## TravelTime (May 22, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> By the way, the _concept _of timeshare *is* legitimate and clever, a real business.
> 
> It's one of those things that you just have to wonder how it came about.
> 
> ...



A timeshare is not that innovative of a concept, not anymore than condos for people who do not want or can't afford a home.


----------



## 4Sunsets (May 22, 2019)

Jumping into the fray.... I think what is needed in the timeshare industry is a little more openness regarding what buyers are getting into. It'll probably take laws though because timeshare sellers don't actually want buyers to think about what exactly they are getting into.


----------



## Brett (May 23, 2019)

4Sunsets said:


> Jumping into the fray.... I think what is needed in the timeshare industry is a little more openness regarding what buyers are getting into. It'll probably take laws though because timeshare sellers don't actually want buyers to think about what exactly they are getting into.



yes, timeshare salespeople commissions are high because of the lack of disclosures.   And "get out of timeshare" seminars are apparently lucrative too, this company  Omni Ellis   http://www.omniellis.com    
has been advertising heavily on local TV to get out of timeshares  -  "1 800 Breakup"   just like the free house flipping seminars


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 23, 2019)

There are a lot of people in the world and the ones you normally hear from are the ones pissed off and with timeshares it’s the ones who willingly dropped their pants and after the buzz wore off are now saying they were forced

I’m not sure why timeshares have this certain issue about value??

A $45,000 Harley will most likely be worth less than that in 20 years
Omg!! Now add up all the insurance paid. The fuel. Repairs. Etc

Where’s the value?  In the use. Period

The same people who bitch about TS are usually the same ones who take the car they owe $20,000 on and trade it for a new one all the while having no issue putting $10,000 of that loan on top of the new one which it itself will drop value as soon as papers are signed

Buy an RV and figure out what that costs you per actual night used over 20 years


----------



## AJCts411 (May 23, 2019)

What if...what if the resort has a exit program where if the week owner wanted out, and choose the resorts program to exit versus other options and it was standard in the industry.  The owner remains responsible for the maintenance fees until sold (and is anyway).  A resort entity (developer/owners association) takes control of the week, and rents it out with 40% of the proceeds returned to reduce the owners maintenance fees.  The resort entity lists the units for sale, even for free (owner pays closing), using 30% of the rental proceeds (if rented) to offset costs.   

Yes, a bad business model on one hand, but the object is to give a owner or potential buyer a worst case scenario exit option.  And there are benefits of sort.   The maintenance fees are likely to have fewer delinquencies, the TS industry stops getting bashed as much and might be a few more units available for the points traders. No one is going to get rich, but no one is getting rich as the exits are now, there is no doubt a cost to the current dump and run exit strategies to everyone.   On a resort to resort basis most weeks are NOT for sale or being dumped so this is a small issue, people are there at the resort and keeping a list and employing minimal marketing, the costs can be kept small.   

So the scenario *"I paid all of that $25,000 at the beginning. I've been giving you $1000 m/l every year since. You've given me a week's vacation every year. We're even. You keep the $25,000. I'll give you another $1000, and let's call it quits."  *is close to reality.


----------



## 4Sunsets (May 23, 2019)

Gypsy65 said:


> There are a lot of people in the world and the ones you normally hear from are the ones pissed off and with timeshares it’s the ones who willingly dropped their pants and after the buzz wore off are now saying they were forced
> 
> I’m not sure why timeshares have this certain issue about value??
> 
> ...




Well, when you buy a $45K Harley, you don't have to pay $60K in MF over 20 years, so there's that. Definitely not a good comparison.

An RV not a good comparison either. If you drop $100K on an RV, you don't have to pay $120K in MF over 20 years for it either (comparing to 2 $50K ts units with MF).

The real issue here is lack of disclosures. AND the fact that YES people are being taken advantage of.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 23, 2019)

4Sunsets said:


> Well, when you buy a $45K Harley, you don't have to pay $60K in MF over 20 years, so there's that. Definitely not a good comparison.
> 
> An RV not a good comparison either. If you drop $100K on an RV, you don't have to pay $120K in MF over 20 years for it either (comparing to 2 $50K ts units with MF).
> 
> The real issue here is lack of disclosures. AND the fact that YES people are being taken advantage of.



I get some don’t understand their purchase or get swayed. 
It works the Exact same way with home remodels. Cars. Etc we are all in too much of a hurry and believe everything told to us wether in person or right here on the internet 

Bikes and RVs are a good comp
I pay insurance. Fuel. Maintenance Blah blah blah
There’s a cost to buying a $45,000 item and over 20 years paying another $1200 per year just for insurance  ( hey. That’s close to MF’s right there in insurance alone ) and fuel. Omg. The fuel can be outrageous and then repairs??  My bikes are all ran by computers. Updates. Glitches. And on and on
$5-600 for an oil change and on and on
But..... until I can’t ride I will continue to be “ suckered “ into ownership of them

Now. Go insure that RV and btw $100,000 won’t get you as nice of an RV as any TS we’ve stayed at. Try $4-500,000. Then put fuel in that beast. 4-6 mpg!!!


----------



## OldGuy (May 23, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Not sure why you keep asking this question.



The question I _keep asking _is why owners are opposed to their resorts offering a deedback program, and you are the first to try to answer that queation, thus the _keep asking_ part.  Of course, I meant under the circumstances I outlined, which is why I outlined that . . . a good person who has always paid their timeshare bills, and is willing to pay more to compensate the resort for letting them end their obligation.

There are many valid life-reasons people want to do that that have nothing to do with them being deadbeats.

What I have never asked is why someone that wants out of their timeshare would not use a deedback program.


----------



## OldGuy (May 23, 2019)

4Sunsets said:


> Definitely not a good comparison.



It's hard to come up with a good comparison, but bad comparisons are quite common.

I hate to address bad examples, but when my Yamaha 80 bit the dust, finally, gracefully, and baling wire could not help it any more, I walked away from it.  No  more insurance, no more maintenance bills, no more gas and oil . . . .


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 23, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> It's hard to come up with a good comparison, but bad comparisons are quite common.



Swing and a miss

The comp was way more spot on than what you want to believe

Get a crayon and paper and do the math

Even real estate is not as great as an investment as some think. I for one have made bank on it at times but do the math here as well

A $300,000 home with $50,000 down payment leaves $250,000
Say 5.5% interest for 30 years and you just paid $675,000 with approx taxes for that $300,000 home plus repairs.
But you raised the kids there. So there’s that

You won’t win. You can’t win.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (May 23, 2019)

Gypsy65 said:


> Swing and a miss
> 
> The comp was way more spot on than what you want to believe
> 
> ...



From my Murphy's Law book.

You can't win.
You can't break even.
You can't quit the game.

The three main philosophies in life are based on refuting one of these realities.

Capitalism is based on the idea you can win.
Socialism is based on the idea you can break even.
And Mysticism is based on the idea that you can quit the game. . . .


----------



## 4Sunsets (May 23, 2019)

Gypsy65 said:


> Swing and a miss
> 
> The comp was way more spot on than what you want to believe
> 
> ...



Hilarious analogies all around. Guess in today's world if you can't win with common sense you just say any outlandish thing and make it sound official.

You live in a home. There's no comparison here. Swing and a miss guys. Please keep trying, it's entertaining to see how far some will go to try to deny there are issues that need resolving in the timeshare industry.


----------



## talkamotta (May 23, 2019)

if the salesperson lied or misleads you is it  a scam? A lot do. I bought my original timeshare from the developer and the salesman never lied to me.  In fact he said one truth that is very true. "Timesharing will make you travel".  I didn't know,  which is my fault.....that I could buy what  I paid $6k for $600 and now they would pay me for that same deal.  The next timeshares I bought for A LOT less.  The sales people are in the business of selling....not getting you the best deal for you.  That's your job, be an informed buyer.  Sometimes the buyer thinks those extra benefits are worth paying developer prices. I love timesharing.  I pay a good amount of money on traveling but it's worth it to me.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 23, 2019)

4Sunsets said:


> Hilarious analogies all around. Guess in today's world if you can't win with common sense you just say any outlandish thing and make it sound official.
> 
> You live in a home. There's no comparison here. Swing and a miss guys. Please keep trying, it's entertaining to see how far some will go to try to deny there are issues that need resolving in the timeshare industry.



Sure there is. 
The main Bitch is how bad many have been ripped off. My analogies are no different. I live on my bikes

Swing and miss? Oh pleeeeze

I never said people have t been ripped off
What I did say was the value in TS is not the real estate part. As many think. I’m guessing you as well??

The value is personal


----------



## talkamotta (May 24, 2019)

4Sunsets said:


> Well, when you buy a $45K Harley, you don't have to pay $60K in MF over 20 years, so there's that. Definitely not a good comparison.
> 
> An RV not a good comparison either. If you drop $100K on an RV, you don't have to pay $120K in MF over 20 years for it either (comparing to 2 $50K ts units with MF).
> 
> The real issue here is lack of disclosures. AND the fact that YES people are being taken advantage of.



Bought first ts from developer, cost $6k.  I now have 8 timeshares and 41k worldmark points. I have less than 20,000 invested in the initial purchases.  I just bought the worldmark points so I figure I will pay  $10,000 yearly in mfs, between myself and my family we will be taking about 17 weeks of vacation. When I learn how to use worldmark that could go up?  I know some would say that's a lot of money for vacations but I prepared for it as part of my retirement.

Others do a LOT better than I do so your numbers aren't accurate.


----------



## 4Sunsets (May 24, 2019)

You seem to think I hate ts. Just the opposite is true in fact. It is personal, but not not everyone who gets in understands what they are getting into.

I just think the timeshare industry could clean itself up and save everyone a whole lot of heartache by adding truth in buying statements that spell out exactly the total costs of ownership, the projected costs of fees/mf/etc over 10/20 year periods. A lot of people would NOT buy a ts if they understood exactly what the 20-year cost of ownership was. A lot of people don't understand mf/fee increases and total costs.

Tell people upfront:

Your total cost today is $70000. To use this ts, your year 1 cost with projected fees are

 $3500 MF, $500 taxes, $450 membership, $200 exchange fees for a total of $4650 per year w approx increases of 2-3% / year

Then spell it out exactly the approximate costs :

Year 1 is $4650
Year 2. is $4925
...
Year 20 is $8210

Total 20 year cost is $203895 approximately


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 24, 2019)

I get that
But they are in business to sell. Not explain all the negatives

Back to the car thing. If a dealer told you all the insurance fees. Repairs. And how much it would depreciate then they wouldn’t sell anything either

My point of the thread is I don’t get why people feel TS’s are a scam because the buyer had no idea what they were doing but we buy cars, bikes, boats etc and just take the loss as part of life


----------



## 4Sunsets (May 24, 2019)

Gypsy65 said:


> I get that
> But they are in business to sell. Not explain all the negatives
> 
> Back to the car thing. If a dealer told you all the insurance fees. Repairs. And how much it would depreciate then they wouldn’t sell anything either
> ...



An honest dealer will absolutely tell you all that. Heck, almost all dealers tell you all that upfront. It's the #1 reason they sell care packages. AND you can't leave w/o insurance, so yes you will know the insurance ost as well.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 24, 2019)

4Sunsets said:


> An honest dealer will absolutely tell you all that. Heck, almost all dealers tell you all that upfront. It's the #1 reason they sell care packages. AND you can't leave w/o insurance, so yes you will know the insurance ost as well.



Huh

I’ve owned many many new vehicles and  in fact I sold them for awhile years ago

Never once has a dealer told me the costs of owning. Not ford. Not Chevy. Not Mercedes and so on
I had to do my own research as to insurance costs not the dealer
I my self had to see what my vette would cost Vs my car or truck never any dealer. All I needed for them was proof

And the dealer never told me what my insurance rates would be a year or five down the road

Ugh

Don’t get your point???
It’s up to each person to do their own research and make their own educated decisions

Every year my insurance goes up. Repair rates increase. Fuel goes up

Cost of owning. And my point is that there is a cost to owning EVERYTHING

Had someone held my ha d an told me fuel would go up and Insurance would rise along with maintenance then I would have maybe kept my old mercury


----------



## 4Sunsets (May 24, 2019)

Gypsy65 said:


> Huh
> 
> I’ve owned many many new vehicles and  in fact I sold them for awhile years ago
> 
> ...



Wasn't my point, was the excuse you made up about cars and dealers on behalf of timeshare developers. Nice switch and bait, almost like a ts salesman. 

More to the point, ts are a unique category. 90% of people don't understand the legal contracts and obligations related to ts ownership. You're getting off topic.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 24, 2019)

4Sunsets said:


> Wasn't my point, was the excuse you made up about cars and dealers on behalf of timeshare developers. Nice switch and bait, almost like a ts salesman.
> 
> More to the point, ts are a unique category. 90% of people don't understand the legal contracts and obligations related to ts ownership. You're getting off topic.



It’s my topic
I started this thread!!!


----------



## 4Sunsets (May 24, 2019)

Gypsy65 said:


> It’s my topic
> I started this thread!!!



Doesn't mean you can go off topic on side journeys to Epcott.


----------



## OldGuy (May 24, 2019)




----------



## TravelTime (May 24, 2019)

4Sunsets said:


> Wasn't my point, was the excuse you made up about cars and dealers on behalf of timeshare developers. Nice switch and bait, almost like a ts salesman.
> 
> More to the point, ts are a unique category. 90% of people don't understand the legal contracts and obligations related to ts ownership. You're getting off topic.



90% of most people do not understand any contracts at all, sign without reading, trust the salespeople and racketeers, do not know how to maintain their finances or even do basic algebra. I think this is a problem across all industries.


----------



## Jan M. (May 24, 2019)

Every single dollar we spend is a decision and with that comes the responsibility to make an informed and wise decision. Does anyone do that with every single dollar they spend? Of course not. Many of us had parents who tried to teach us and guide us. Investment consulting, financial advisers, debt management are big businesses. Consumer Reports made a business out of doing our homework for us when it comes to purchasing many things. We pay people for the knowledge we don't have; to do the work we can't or don't want to do. With the internet and a little time and effort we can now find out for ourselves just about anything we want to know. Even with all the resources available to us there are still no guarantees that a seemingly good decision will turn out well or that a bad decision will turn out poorly. And the saying that "there is a sucker born every minute" will always be true.

We bought developer for some but not all of our timeshare purchases so we always accepted that we fell into the sucker category. However back when we were first buying in 2002 I wouldn't have touched resale on a dare. But in time with more computer experience, more information available on the internet and learning on TUG I started dipping my toes into the resale waters. Reading the posts on this thread brought up an interesting discussion with my husband.

1. We bought our first brand new car in 39 years of being married when my husband retired last year. We always bought good used cars and kept them. Five in 39 years. If we had been buying new cars every 4 or 5 years like many/most people do we would have spent about the same amount as we've spent on all our timeshare purchases, developer and resale, and have nothing to show for it. If I had it to do over I would make that same financial mistake again. Funny that people who buy new cars, and more expensive cars than we do, would call us fools for what we've spent on timeshares. The timeshare experiences and memories we've made have given us more pleasure than any car ever could. Our families, our son, DIL and granddaughters also have those experiences and memories too. And we will continue to have those wonderful stays and make more memories.

2. We made a list and counted up the number of resorts we've stayed at over our years of owning. And that number is *50*! My husband asked me if I had any idea how many nights we stayed in the timeshares. I'm a numbers person but we've owned for 17 years and even I can't come up with a guesstimate. I've posted before that my husband lived out of the timeshares for 17 weeks and a few nights in 2010 and 2011. It was after he he was downsized from his job up North and moved to Florida to take a new job for the few years he needed before retirement. That alone was 122 nights and we took vacations that year before he lost his job. January was Florida, March was Las Vegas, May was Myrtle Beach and a few nights in July over the 4th was DC. Had he not lost his job September or October would have been another trip either back to Vegas or Myrtle Beach. Except for the few nights in DC that had been our routine of vacation time for at least the previous five years. And that isn't even counting the trips our son took. A few nights in DC for a conference for several years and once he turned 21 and could check in on his own there were trips to Vegas, Myrtle Beach and Florida with friends and his then fiancee. After we got settled in Florida because my husband covered all of Florida from Sarasota over to Fort Pierce and clear down to Key West whenever I found a good reservation and he could arrange a few days work that area we went. Almost every paid holiday or unpaid holiday we combined work for him with a stay until he retired last year. Sometimes he would take a a vacation day to give him a long or longer weekend when there was a paid holiday. We've been using well over a 100 nights a year in the timeshares for the last 9 years alone. Once in a while we have stays that cost us more than $50 a night but not very often at all. Most of the time the cost of our stays range from $25-$40 a night. And I can count on one hand with fingers left over the number of times we've stayed in a studio. Mostly two bedroom units followed by one bedroom units with some three and four bedroom units in there too.

So yeah we were scammed and were suckers and it's a darned shame about how it's worked out for us. Lol!


----------



## LannyPC (May 24, 2019)

Gypsy65 said:


> Cost of owning. And my point is that there is a cost to owning EVERYTHING.



Which is why I get a little bit miffed at these people who come all over social media and emphatically state, "NEVER buy a timeshare because of all the expenses involved!" but will quickly go and buy a car, TV, cell phone, etc.


----------



## 4Sunsets (May 25, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> 90% of most people do not understand any contracts at all, sign without reading, trust the salespeople and racketeers, do not know how to maintain their finances or even do basic algebra. I think this is a problem across all industries.



So true


----------



## 4Sunsets (May 25, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> Every single dollar we spend is a decision and with that comes the responsibility to make an informed and wise decision. Does anyone do that with every single dollar they spend? Of course not. Many of us had parents who tried to teach us and guide us. Investment consulting, financial advisers, debt management are big businesses. Consumer Reports made a business out of doing our homework for us when it comes to purchasing many things. We pay people for the knowledge we don't have; to do the work we can't or don't want to do. With the internet and a little time and effort we can now find out for ourselves just about anything we want to know. Even with all the resources available to us there are still no guarantees that a seemingly good decision will turn out well or that a bad decision will turn out poorly. And the saying that "there is a sucker born every minute" will always be true.
> 
> We bought developer for some but not all of our timeshare purchases so we always accepted that we fell into the sucker category. However back when we were first buying in 2002 I wouldn't have touched resale on a dare. But in time with more computer experience, more information available on the internet and learning on TUG I started dipping my toes into the resale waters. Reading the posts on this thread brought up an interesting discussion with my husband.
> 
> ...



Yes, haha... it's great that you were able to pick up cheap weeks and enjoy them. But your experience is hardly the majority.

Meanwhile a lot of people spent $80K a unit and yes, they are very angry about it. Others are in to Marriott to the tune of 1/4 to 1/2 million dollars, so yeah, they are screaming angry when they find out others paid pennies while they paid full retail. 

So yes, it's easy to say haha on everyone else... but shameful as well.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 25, 2019)

4Sunsets said:


> Yes, haha... it's great that you were able to pick up cheap weeks and enjoy them. But your experience is hardly the majority.
> 
> Meanwhile a lot of people spent $80K a unit and yes, they are very angry about it. Others are in to Marriott to the tune of 1/4 to 1/2 million dollars, so yeah, they are screaming angry when they find out others paid pennies while they paid full retail.
> 
> So yes, it's easy to say haha on everyone else... but shameful as well.



Did I just read that correctly??

There are people. And based on the comment not just one particular person but rather many who spent $250,000 to $500,000 on timeshares and feel ripped off???

We are talking US dollars and not some type of Pesos or Monopoly money here correct?

If so. I assume anyone spending that amount on a timeshare is either educated to have that much disposable cash laying around or they inherited it 

In either situation they can afford to take the hit and can mark it up as a valuable lesson learned 

My guess is that anyone pissed off because THEY spent $500,000 on a TS deserves to take the hit and be quiet as there is no way any normal thinking person would  lay that much down on a whim


----------



## Jan M. (May 26, 2019)

4Sunsets said:


> Yes, haha... it's great that you were able to pick up cheap weeks and enjoy them. But your experience is hardly the majority.
> 
> Meanwhile a lot of people spent $80K a unit and yes, they are very angry about it. Others are in to Marriott to the tune of 1/4 to 1/2 million dollars, so yeah, they are screaming angry when they find out others paid pennies while they paid full retail.
> 
> So yes, it's easy to say haha on everyone else... but shameful as well.



I've never met anyone who spent $500k on their timeshares. I'm not saying no one did, just that I've never met any of them in all of our stays. $175k to probably $250k, yes definitely. I've also met plenty of people who own all or mostly resale. They don't get the developer benefits that we do and they are fine with that considering what they paid.

We are Wyndham platinum VIP and presidential reserve too. That comes with a steep price tag. That money is gone and we refuse to cry about what we spent or be angry. An acquaintance told me if you're going to be bitter and angry about what you spent, walk away and get out. Don't be "one of those people" who go to the resorts and just have to tell everyone how they were ripped off and how horrible their experience was. People are on vacation as are you and vacations are meant to be enjoyed. You can choose to let it eat at you or you can let it go and learn to make the most of what you have. I decided that was excellent advise. And after meeting several of "those people" I was very glad I decided not to be one of them.

I took learning to make the most of what we own to heart. I was willing to put the time and effort into both learning and searching for stays. I frequently hear and see people whining about what they spent and that they can't find the reservations they want. Quite obviously that is not my experience. But we have always been able to be somewhat flexible about when we could go even before we retired and now that isn't a consideration at all. It also makes a huge difference that we are open to trying new resorts and places. If someone has to have a certain week and only wants one specific resort then they aren't willing to make it work for themselves. Finding a fixed week at a resort they want would have been a better fit. I do have sympathy for people who made the mistake of buying a product that isn't a good fit for their wants and needs.

We've enjoyed talking to other owners at the TUG get togethers in Orlando and meeting other owners at the resorts we've stayed at who use their timeshares extensively. There are a lot of owners out there who use their timeshares as wisely as we do and go way more than we do. And most of them made at least some developer purchases. One owns something like 2.5M Wyndham points all purchased developer and we have never heard whining about what they spent. What we have heard are many great stories about the wonderful times they had. The money is gone but the memories aren't and those memories are precious to many of us.

We could easily have bought a second home for what we spent but neither of us ever wanted the work and headaches of owning and maintaining a second home. Plus we wanted to be able to go wherever we felt like going. That was the reason going with points over fixed weeks appealed to us. We could also have chosen to buy new higher end cars every few years instead of buying used cars and keeping them. The first brand new car we purchased in 39 years was a new Toyota Camry for $21k out the door. We got a fantastic deal. My husband and son delight in telling me what different vehicles cost because I'm one of those not even if I won the lottery people. When we are driving on the interstates to our destinations we frequently see motor homes with price tags of anywhere from $150k to mid to high $400k range. We talk about the expenses of owning and operating them. About what it costs per night to stay in a campground because it has gotten a lot more expensive as my sister and BIL found out a few years ago. We always come to the conclusion that although if we had known more in the beginning we could have spent less what we have suits us and we are happy with it. Sometimes it helps to put what you spent into perspective.


----------



## WVBaker (May 26, 2019)

4Sunsets said:


> Meanwhile a lot of people spent $80K a unit and yes, they are very angry about it. Others are in to Marriott to the tune of 1/4 to 1/2 million dollars, so yeah, they are screaming angry when they find out others paid pennies while they paid full retail.



You surely understand these people were not kidnapped and forced in some way to buy these timeshares. An important fact about a free market is that no exchange of product or service takes place unless and until both parties agree. Those choices create an accountability to learn and understand any and all risks prior to investing. Unfortunately, in a free market system sometimes people invest their money, hoping to get some type a return on that investment and don't.


----------



## OldGuy (May 26, 2019)

A good summary of the opposite of how timeshares are sold.

I'm chuckling about the kidnapped and forced, which is more like not exactly kidnapped, but close, and not forced, but close.

If a little bit of captivity and pressure was not a part of it, very few timeshares would be purchased . . . people don't just walk in off the street, when they want, how they want, to buy timeshares.

Or do they now?  It's been awhile since we went through that process.


----------



## WVBaker (May 26, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> A good summary of the opposite of how timeshares are sold.
> 
> I'm chuckling about the kidnapped and forced, which is more like not exactly kidnapped, but close, and not forced, but close.
> 
> ...



I disagree... But, I agree to disagree... Wouldn't you agree?


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 26, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> I've never met anyone who spent $500k on their timeshares. I'm not saying no one did, just that I've never met any of them in all of our stays. $175k to probably $250k, yes definitely. I've also met plenty of people who own all or mostly resale. They don't get the developer benefits that we do and they are fine with that considering what they paid.
> 
> We are Wyndham platinum VIP and presidential reserve too. That comes with a steep price tag. That money is gone and we refuse to cry about what we spent or be angry. An acquaintance told me if you're going to be bitter and angry about what you spent, walk away and get out. Don't be "one of those people" who go to the resorts and just have to tell everyone how they were ripped off and how horrible their experience was. People are on vacation as are you and vacations are meant to be enjoyed. You can choose to let it eat at you or you can let it go and learn to make the most of what you have. I decided that was excellent advise. And after meeting several of "those people" I was very glad I decided not to be one of them.
> 
> ...



Perfectly said!!!

That second home you mention is supposed to be a getaway but many of my friends who own those spend all week maintaining their personal home. Then all weekend doing the same to that “ vacation “ home. All work period!!!

The point of any of this is a vacation and good time. Mowing and cleaning is neither


----------



## OldGuy (May 26, 2019)

= 'Tis the times we live in, I'm afraid.


----------



## OldGuy (May 26, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> I disagree... But, I agree to disagree... Wouldn't you agree?



well uh ok

I was picturing OLCC, where prospects park, go into the sales building, then get hauled off to another area, away from their cars. It's not like they can just leave when they want to.

Having been in direct sales for ten years, although that's not a requisite for understanding what's going on, I know the timeshare sales process is designed to break down the prospects' free will. It's all on the side of the seller.

Just to show I kid you not, here's Orange Lake, and I've noted the sales center:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/O...6f883598df8d01!8m2!3d28.3553013!4d-81.6118459

You can zoom in and out, or whatever, and see the HUGE parking lot there, and there is no other part of the resort even close.

So, prospects go in, get matched up, chit-chat to break the ice (Pretalk in the direct selling game), and then are loaded onto a golf-cart-type vehicle, and they head off to the hinterlands . . . River Island, East Village, North Village, West Village.

They may not be legally kidnapped, but they are captive . . . until their _tour guide _releases them, four hours later.   By then, their kids at the motel have put out a BOLO for them.

No need to post links to reviews of the tour, cuz y'all know what they say.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 26, 2019)

[Deleted - please review the TUG Courtesy Rules:

*Be Courteous*

As we read and respond to others, disagreements are inevitable. Differing points of view are welcomed, and indeed the bbs would be a dull place without them. All users are expected and required to express their disagreements civilly. Refrain from name calling and behavior lectures. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and repeated offenses could get you banned from the bbs. Lively discussion is what the board is all about, but that is no excuse for boorish behavior or bad manners. We are assumed to all be adults. If you don't like a particular thread, stop reading it!]


----------



## OldGuy (May 26, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> walk away and get out.



OK, sounds like a plan.


----------



## Janann (May 27, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> I was picturing OLCC, where prospects park, go into the sales building, then get hauled off to another area, away from their cars. It's not like they can just leave when they want to.



This is where an Uber or Lyft app is a lifesaver.  Just go outside and get a ride back to your car.

But I know there are timeshares in Mexico and other countries where you really are trapped, and there isn't a way back to the main town or even your hotel unless the timeshare people give you a ride.


----------



## LannyPC (May 27, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> You surely understand these people were not kidnapped and forced in some way to buy these timeshares.



Yes, that is true.  But the methods that the sales people use is nearly tantamount to doing so by withholding the "Gift" until the potential buyer(s) sign on the dotted line.


----------



## Fredflintstone (May 27, 2019)

LannyPC said:


> Yes, that is true.  But the methods that the sales people use is nearly tantamount to doing so by withholding the "Gift" until the potential buyer(s) sign on the dotted line.



I guess the old saying still rings true.

There’s no such thing as a free lunch 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## OldGuy (May 27, 2019)

Janann said:


> This is where an Uber or Lyft app is a lifesaver.  Just go outside and get a ride back to your car.



That would be funny, but what would they tell security to get past the gate?  

"I'm here to rescue a tour victim."  ????!!!!


----------



## OldGuy (May 27, 2019)

One of the funniest ones was the first week DW and I did tours, to underwrite our first vacation together, and the week we bought our first timeshare.  So, the scenario was that we were younger, trusting, naive, vulnerable, and with no Internet, no TUG, no way to be informed because Al Gore had not got it up and running yet.

Our week was centered in that familiar 192/Irlo Bronson Parkway area, but most of what is there now was not there.  West of I4 there was OLCC and Wastegate, and an RV timeshare campground.  OLCC was just the golf villas in what is now the West Village, and Wastegate was a clubhouse, Bldg. A, and a marketing tent.  There was nothing else there yet.

Incidental, our tour guide at OLCC had more than 10 couples, and when we toured the property we did it in a train of golf carts.  Of course, he was unable to exert any sort of control over that large a group, when the time came, we all bolted.

In digress.  We would do a breakfast tour . . . go do whatever attraction we got tickets for, do another breakfast tour the next day . . . then go do whatever attraction we got tickets for . . . 

By the end of the week, for some reason all that I wanted was the Mickey Mouse phone they were giving away at the RV resort, so we did that one.  About 10 minutes into the pitch, the saleslady said, "I can see you're not interested.  Sit here another 45 minutes and then go get your gift."

We did.

15 or 20 minutes later a manager-type guy came by and asked us what we were doing, and we told him.  He laughed and said, "Go get your gift."

In our last TS tour, which was our last timeshare tour, maybe five or six years ago, this one at Wastegate, our salesman did the same thing, got up and went outside for a cigarette, and never came back.

What were we talking about . . . let me look . . . oh, sorry.


----------



## WVBaker (May 27, 2019)

LannyPC said:


> Yes, that is true.  But the methods that the sales people use is nearly tantamount to doing so by withholding the "Gift" until the potential buyer(s) sign on the dotted line.



Understand that I'm not defending the tactics used by timeshare salesmen or saleswoman.

A buyer however, needs to recognize the tactics of normal sales and high-pressure sales. A good seller empowers you with information and options. They will let the buyer reach a confident decision on your their own. A predatory seller, which most timeshare sellers are, works to undermine your gut feeling and push you into a deal you know you can't afford. Objectionable and unsavoury, of course, however the buyer still has the right to just walk away. Sometimes, the best way to win a fight is to just walk away, and timeshare sales presentations are no exception.

The sales person must work to keep you invested in that transaction. When the buyer can walk away, they are in control of the deal. They're not being held against their will and they have not been kidnapped. They remain simply because of their own greed and desire for some "free" gift.


----------



## OldGuy (May 27, 2019)

LannyPC said:


> Yes, that is true.  But the methods that the sales people use is nearly tantamount to doing so by withholding the "Gift" until the potential buyer(s) sign on the dotted line.



Yeah, it's a fine line between _kidnapped_, and _unwillingly restrained_.



C'mon folks, let's get real, for the average common person, not a highly-educated, omniscient TUG veteran, timeshare sales tours can be highly uncomfortable, intimidating, and downright unpleasant.  After an ample amount of pressure has been applied, it gets elevated.  It doesn't take a google search to confirm that, but one would.


----------



## WVBaker (May 27, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Yeah, it's a fine line between _kidnapped_, and _unwillingly restrained_.
> 
> 
> 
> C'mon folks, let's get real, for the average common person, not a highly-educated, omniscient TUG veteran, timeshare sales tours can be highly uncomfortable, intimidating, and downright unpleasant.  After an ample amount of pressure has been applied, it gets elevated.  It doesn't take a google search to confirm that, but one would.



And yet these average, common, not highly educated, non-omniscient TUG veteran individuals can still stand and leave these highly uncomfortable, intimidating, and downright unpleasant presentations at any moment. This of course leads back to the common reason they don't.


----------



## OldGuy (May 27, 2019)

Has anyone figured out that this was not intended to be an enlightening thread?


----------



## OldGuy (May 27, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> This of course leads back to the common reason they don't.



masochism?


----------



## OldGuy (May 28, 2019)

I was just thinking that all consumers know that they should not make a spur-of-the-moment purchase, and that one-time offers are dubious.

Well, sellers know that, too.

But, not only do they not discourage it, but they do everything to encourage it, it is SOP, because, after all, this offer is only available now, during this visit.

Then, after the three-four hours it took to get the buyer to buy, let's hang around for an other couple of hours, and initial page after page after page.  Why is the commissioned salesperson not involved in the closing, and, since there's so much paperwork, why not just come back tomorrow and do the closing?

We all know the whys.

Real real estate closings are long after the sale.


----------



## cnymike (May 28, 2019)

I recently went to an “owner’s update” at a Wyndham property. I knew ahead of time what was going to happen. It’s essentially the same every time. And yet, they keep coming up with ways to spin the same old story and make the pitch very enticing. Of course the pitch doesn’t come right away. They spend a good amount of time chit-chatting and showing you photos of the great vacations they’ve been on... and there is usually a guy or gal lurking nearby pretending to read a newspaper or feigning that they are doing paperwork. That’s the person who is listening in on the whole conversation and likely to give the salesperson advice when you leave to go to the bathroom or get a “free” snack or coffee. That lurking person gives the salesperson advice on how to proceed based on what he’s heard. I know this is a fact because I quietly came back to the room and heard the lurker tell the sales person to
“get back on track” with the conversation.

Anyway, at the point in time where the actual pitch occurred, he left to get some paperwork to see if my ownership could transfer into the new program that Wyndham has and wouldn’t you know, it could. and the current price for 105,000 more points would be $253/1000 points. But amazingly enough (haha) there was a previous quote that was for some unknown reason still in my account and that offered the points at $186/1000 points. A HUGE savings right? And since this wasn’t really supposed to be available to me anymore since it was an old quote, I would have to accept or decline the offer immediately.
That’s the kind of BS that I hate about the presentations. They put the pressure on you to make a decision and the fear is that if you don’t buy, you will lose out on the great deal.


----------



## WVBaker (May 28, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> I was just thinking that all consumers know that they should not make a spur-of-the-moment purchase, and that one-time offers are dubious.
> 
> Well, sellers know that, too.
> 
> ...



Okay, one more time. 

Of course they don't discourage it. Like it or not, it's their job to sell the buyer a product, which in this case is a timeshare. They have no ethical duty to educate the public in all the possible drawbacks of buying a timeshare.

Do car salesman discourage a sale? Do realtors discourage a sale? Do life insurance salesman discourage a sale? Of course not.
The same person who says “I hate timeshare salesman” in reality, hate themselves. They are the ones who chose to sit through that hours long presentation, instead of simply saying adios and leave. They are also the same one who decided to put their "John Hancock" on the papers. There's no coercion, duress or intimidation, implied or otherwise. They won't sit there, holding your trembling 
hand, guiding it as you sign with beads of sweat dripping down your forehead as you scream NOOOOOO.

A bit dramatic, but you see the point.


----------



## Luvtoride (May 28, 2019)

WV Baker...LOL.  We all make our own decisions with or without the best advice and information available.  I think the feeling "scammed" part comes from whether the item we spent the money on is useful/ enjoyable for us.  In almost every business transaction survey I get these days, not only does it ask me to rate the quality of the product/ service but also to rate the VALUE for the price paid!  I think that's the Key factor for most of us now.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 28, 2019)

This whole thread was started with the question as to why TS are a scam
Many interesting takes on what each of us feel is or define a scam as

Maybe a better term would be taken advantage of rather than scam?? 
Sorta like the car thing again. The best time to buy a car is when you don’t need one. Why?  Because you will do your research and buy what fits the bill

If your car dies and now today you need one. That salesperson has all the power. You need what he is selling and you are weak because you know that also

TS salespeople  are showing you that you need or want what they have, some are better and sell the lifestyle and how it could benefit you. nonetheless in 90 minutes you buy on emotion which is weak all without thinking about your finances or even if you are able to vacation every year in the first place

If there were no pissed of owners taking losses just to get out then the market value of TS would go up and the value of what we all own would hold as there would be no cheap secondary markets available


----------



## 4Sunsets (May 28, 2019)

For those who think it's okay to be obscene and/or extremely rude: You do realize of course that THOUSANDS of people have spent that kind of money on MVC? Have you ever met or talked with Hawaii owners who purchased retail? Or any RC fractional owners? ALL of these people spent that much on TS and there are THOUSANDS of them. You really need to get more experience with the entire market before you make blanket statements like that.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 29, 2019)

I don’t think anyone who has $$$$ like you say who spent it on TS deserves any sympathy

I do believe there are those who have spent thousands and thousands ( 1/2 million as YOU say )
That’s not my argument

Mine is. That ANYONE who spent that kind of money on a whim and on a TS that now has regrets needs a major head exam

I do believe some of those bought $$$ and use it and enjoy it

But again. If you or anyone else has and after the fact has a complaint. Then they deserve it and should mosey on through life making poor decisions so the rest of the thinking world can learn

I myself own a lot with HICV. Million points and I spent $$ on it. Some developer and some eBay. In the end I feel I bought the amount I wanted for a better price than many and yet someone else I know has about the same and I know they got a better deal than I. Simply because they did a little more research than I did 

I’m not bitter or upset with him for getting a better deal. He knew. Nor am I bitter or upset with the resort for letting me buy what I did as “ I knew “


----------



## LannyPC (May 29, 2019)

cnymike said:


> They put the pressure on you to make a decision and the fear is that if you don’t buy, you will lose out on the great deal.



Bingo!  And they make it look/sound like if you don't jump at this great deal right away, someone else with a lot of common sense will scoop it up right after you leaving you kicking yourself for not nabbing this great deal.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 29, 2019)

LannyPC said:


> Bingo!  And they make it look/sound like if you don't jump at this great deal right away, someone else with a lot of common sense will scoop it up right after you leaving you kicking yourself for not nabbing this great deal.



Agree
But they do that at the County and State fairs as well

I think the “ once in a lifetime “ sell has been going on since the original snake was talking to that woman many many years ago and it appears we as a species have learned next to nothing about this tactic


----------



## WVBaker (May 29, 2019)

LannyPC said:


> Bingo!  And they make it look/sound like if you don't jump at this great deal right away, someone else with a lot of common sense will scoop it up right after you leaving you kicking yourself for not nabbing this great deal.



This is a debate that has been going on and will continue, as long as there are services and products to sell, individuals to sell them to, and people who sell them.

The fact remains that we all make choices in life. Some we're happy we've made and some we later come to realize were just plain stupid. As the saying goes, that's life. Like many, I have made poor buying decisions that I later regret however, the onus was mine and mine alone to understand any and all ramifications of the purchase, not the sellers to educate me. Their job is to sell timeshares, not explain any and all the consequences of owning one.

Push comes to shove, these people are all adults and are free to stay or free to leave. Caveat emptor.


----------



## OldGuy (May 29, 2019)

*scam*
noun
\ ˈskam  \
 : a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation
- - - - - -
*sleaze*
/slēz/
_noun_
immoral, sordid, and corrupt behavior or material, especially in business or politics.
- - - - - -
*dis·hon·est*
/disˈänəst/
_adjective
1. _behaving or prone to behave in an untrustworthy or fraudulent way
2. intended to mislead or cheat
- - - - - -
*de·cep·tive*
/dəˈseptiv/
_adjective
1. _giving an appearance or impression different from the true one; misleading.
- - - - -
*high-pressure*
involving a high degree of persuasion.
"high-pressure sales techniques"
involving a great deal of anxiety or stress
- - - - - -
*Misrepresentation*
/ˌmisreprəzenˈtāSH(ə)n/
the action or offense of giving a false or misleading account of the nature of something.


----------



## Gypsy65 (May 29, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> *scam*
> noun
> \ ˈskam  \
> : a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation
> ...




Yes. Those are all definitions of each preceding word

But no where in any of those listed did I read “ to use blunt force “ or the “ use of a weapon “ i.e. pistol or bat etc.

What I did read, and this was between the lines. That said victim of any of the above had the right to leave on their own free will. 

Did they have the ability?  Questionable and not because they were kidnapped but rather their eyes were glowing with a vacation and life they didn’t or couldn’t live in the first place


----------



## OldGuy (May 29, 2019)




----------



## WVBaker (May 29, 2019)

The voices of cold reason have been talking, as usual, to deaf ears.


----------



## OldGuy (May 30, 2019)

Yeah, it's frustrating, but I keep trying to state the obvious, what the general public and dissatisfied owners think of the industry.


----------



## bogey21 (May 30, 2019)

I know this is not possible and maybe even not desirable for some but if TimeShares purchases from Developers could only be paid for with cash, I think there would be a lot less dissatisfaction and second guessing oneself...

George


----------



## OldGuy (May 31, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> I know this is not possible and maybe even not desirable for some but if TimeShares purchases from Developers could only be paid for with cash, I think there would be a lot less dissatisfaction and second guessing oneself...
> 
> George



Yeah, cuz there would be no sales.


----------



## OldGuy (Jun 1, 2019)

Interesting and timely, I was just reading the current issue of my business college's alumni publication, and . . . they have developed and are now requiring a course in business ethics for all undergraduates.  There was already a required ethics course in the Philosophy department, but this one was developed especially for ethics in business.  They noted how many newer, successful companies are ethics-driven.

Business and business education are a lot more complicated than when I was a student.

Yeah, ethics, that's the ticket.  

That's what there could be more of.


----------



## OldGuy (Jun 18, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Yeah, ethics, that's the ticket.
> 
> That's what there could be more of.



https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/cancelling-a-westgate-timeshare-merged.208087/


----------



## OldGuy (Jun 19, 2019)

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...cv-orange-lake-country-club-timeshare.271091/


----------



## OldGuy (Jun 26, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> well uh ok
> 
> I was picturing OLCC, where prospects park, go into the sales building, then get hauled off to another area, away from their cars. It's not like they can just leave when they want to.
> 
> ...



I posted the above in response to someone saying anyone could just walk away from a sales presentation any time they want.

Well, sometimes they can't and that's not unintentional.

Since we've talked about Stormy Point Village a little bit recently, so here's another example.  Prospects check in at the "Capitol" (formerly Suumerwinds) tour center.  Then, a mini-bus take them 4.9 miles to Stormy Point Village.  I don't know the mini-bus tour, but prospect can't just walk out of a tour and leave.

Right next door, at Nantucket, their tour Welcome Center also is not at the resort.  If prospects want to walk 1.1 miles up a hill, I guess they could leave any time they want.


----------



## WVBaker (Jun 26, 2019)

Okay Cap., I'll bite.

Not knowing anything about this "tour center" or "Stormy Point Village" tell me this.

Is this "tour" prior to being able able to check into their rooms? In other words, they are required and must enter this "tour center" as they arrive. No ifs ands or buts.

Upon arriving at this "tour center", are they required to enter the structure or building and be seated? They will and must stay for any sales presentation. There is to be no lingering, loitering or relaxing outside of this building or structure?

To me, this sounds as though these people are being held hostage.


----------



## Gypsy65 (Jun 26, 2019)

If you agree to a presentation then you owe the resort that. Period. After all you do want your free toy right?

The two you mentioned and I assume there are others set up like that cannot hold you against your will. 

Not in the USA anyways 

I would bet a pretty good sum that if you said nothing to the salesperson for the entire 90 minutes that you’d get your free toy and be on your way

The big reason the sales pitch goes on and on is people ask that person questions about the fees. Resort. Etc

Once you do that. Of course they’re going to reel you all the way in. That’s their livelihood like it or not

Again. I’d bet $$$$$ that if you said absolutely nothing that you’d be out in the 90 minutes. Heck they’d probably let you out of class early


----------



## easyrider (Jun 26, 2019)

I doubt that anyone thought timeshares were a scam until Al invented the internet. Everything was easier to sell pre-internet. In fact, many people thought the internet was a scam back then. 

For most people that purchase timeshares the purchase was a known luxury item. These were not bought from the developer to sell or rent but to use. The people that can afford this product rarely complain and usually boast a bit. The people that can not afford these products complain constantly about everything. 

Every one that attends a timeshare presentation knows that they sell timeshares at these presentations. What triggers the sale ? Obviously it is professional marketing. Most people fall under one of three types of buyers and the questions asked at the presentation warm up usually reveal this. 

Are timeshares a scam. No, imo. They are just another product that many people enjoy and use for the intrinsic vacation value that timeshares provide. 

Dose the ability to resell this product make timeshares a scam ? No, imo. Timeshares are not sold to resell. They are sold to use.

Why would anyone purchase a timeshare from the developer when they can purchase a timeshare resale ?  For most people, the reason is that they can afford to purchase a timeshare and they want the product. 

Bill


----------



## moonstone (Jun 26, 2019)

Gypsy65 said:


> If you agree to a presentation then you owe the resort that. Period. After all you do want your free toy right?
> The two you mentioned and I assume there are others set up like that cannot hold you against your will.
> Not in the USA anyways
> I would bet a pretty good sum that if you said nothing to the salesperson for the entire 90 minutes that you’d get your free toy and be on your way
> ...




If & when we attend a presentation we confirm right at the start how long the presentation will take. I then set the alarm on my phone for that time and tell the sales person we have no intention on buying but will fulfill our end of the deal by staying the required amount of time. We don't ask any questions but sometimes I do have printouts of recent resale prices which usually gets us out of the presentation early. We attended a presentation in Florida last year where the sales person wanted to take us in their car off site to the new models. We politely told him that we do not ride in stranger's cars and we would follow in our car, which we did. When the alarm rang we didn't have to depend on the sales person to take us back to the car and the closer just sent us over to gifting with no further hassles. 


~Diane


----------



## LannyPC (Jun 27, 2019)

easyrider said:


> Why would anyone purchase a timeshare from the developer when they can purchase a timeshare resale ?



I think the better question would be Why would anyone purchase a timeshare from the developer, period?  Or, why would anyone pay $15,000, or so, with money he does not have, for a product he knows little about after "learning" about it for only a couple of hours or so?  The answer basically lies in the sales tactics that we discuss here on TUG ad nauseum.

And a person who purchases from the developer likely knows little or nothing about resale.


----------



## easyrider (Jun 27, 2019)

LannyPC said:


> I think the better question would be Why would anyone purchase a timeshare from the developer, period?  Or, why would anyone pay $15,000, or so, with money he does not have, for a product he knows little about after "learning" about it for only a couple of hours or so?  The answer basically lies in the sales tactics that we discuss here on TUG ad nauseum.
> 
> And a person who purchases from the developer likely knows little or nothing about resale.



I agree that when a person does know about resale or selling they would not buy a timeshare for $20,000 when they could buy it for $1. This doesn't make timeshares a scam, imo. Timeshares are a luxury product sold purposely for vacation use, not flipping. The person that can not afford a luxury item should not be purchasing a timeshare and when they do there are often problems for them. Most people that purchase timeshares can afford the product and are happy with their purchase.  

The truth is that any person going to a timeshare sales presentation knows that they are willfully going to a presentation to be sold a timeshare. No one wants to buy this timeshare, it has to be sold in the same way other expensive products are sold. Just by attending the presentation to learn about the product the client has willfully let the sales staff overcome the first objection. 

Would purchasing a funeral when it is needed be considered a scam ? No one really knows what a funeral cost but in their emotional state they often purchase very expensive services. 

Another example would be medical care. Most of us don't really know what we paid for when the bills come in. This isn't considered a scam.

Bill


----------

