# Bellehavens... My reasons..Long



## NeilGoBlue (Jun 3, 2007)

I'd thought I'd post why I choose Bellehavens, and why I didn't choose the other clubs.  The financial aspects of the clubs have been discussed a lot in this forum, so I'd thought I focus on a few other reasons... (quality of the club, homes, locations, services, etc)

I really liked the idea of time shares, but as my family grew, two bedrooms wasn't enough (I own in Orange lake, but am looking to sell).  Also in the last couple years my income and networth have grown dramatically and I grew increasingly frustrated with RCI. (my experience with them is about as low rent as it can get)  I wanted something more upscale and was willing to pay for it.


I've spent about 80 hours researching clubs.  I've talked to every club in my price range and some outside of my price range.  (I received a lot of expensive packages in the mail!)

Here were my requirements:
1) I wanted a club that would fit my needs for the next 10 years.
2) I didn't want to spend more than $125K.
4) Since I lived in MD, I wanted a fair amount of properties on the East Coast.
5) I wanted a club that was professional and met my service/concierge requirements
6) I wanted to ensure that I had a good shot of getting all or most of my money back if something happened with the industry and of course, any appreciation is gravy.

I spoke with exclusive resorts.  (even though they weren't in my price range).  I kept challenging them on the lack of equity and what happens in the event of a market meltdown, etc.  They were very arrogant.  Their way of being was 'we are the biggest, we aren't going to fail'.   I pushed his buttons a little too much and he fired back with (and I quote) "our members have a networth of 4-12 million, 375K is nothing to them..."  That's when I hung up...

I spoke with Portfino.  I liked them, but when push came to shove, I didnt feel their houses were up to the standards I wanted in terms of furnishings, locations, number of bedrooms, etc.

I spoke with Bellehavens,  they right off the bat seemed the best, professional, the best houses in terms of furnishings, decorations, choices, etc.  The were up front about there mistakes in the past, where they were going in the future, etc.  They then bought "The Havens Club."  The Haven's club doesn't have any assets, but about 30 dues paying, non equity members came over. Later on, they announced their expansion plans for international travel and more eastern seaboard and carribean destinations.  That was important for me...

I spoke with HCC, I immediately dismissed them because I wanted a higher quality house, at least in the 2Mil range.  Though I think any timeshare owner would be much better off with HCC than a timeshare (my opinion)

I spoke with Ultimate Resorts.  I felt that their homes in the lower collection weren't as good as Bellehavens.  I also didn't like the pushiness of the sales guy.

I also spoke with Crescendo and Quintess.  I liked what they had to offer, but it was not in my price range.  

It got me thinking tho, 'were Bellehaven's homes in the right locations?  Was $2Mil enough to buy a house on the beach?  Ski on, ski off? Etc.  I decided I would do more research and if the homes weren't what I wanted, I would wait a year or two and spend more in the $300K range and get the club with houses in the 3.0 -3.5M range.

When Bellehavens announced their price increase they also announced something else, they announced that they were going to increase the price they paid for the homes.  From 2Mil to between 2 and 3mil.  This alleviated my concern and, if I bought in now, with the additional price increases, I might even get some quick appreciation. (not to mention the homes they are going to open later this year and first of next year.)

So, I called Stan Bonnemort and sent my deposit in.  I'm going to the Palm Coast home for a few days in July and will update you all.


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## PerryM (Jun 3, 2007)

*A Throw Away society...*



NeilGoBlue said:


> <snip>
> I spoke with exclusive resorts.  (even though they weren't in my price range).  I kept challenging them on the lack of equity and what happens in the event of a market meltdown, etc.  They were very arrogant.  Their way of being was 'we are the biggest, we aren't going to fail'.   I pushed his buttons a little too much and he fired back with (and I quote) *"our members have a networth of 4-12 million, 375K is nothing to them..."  *That's when I hung up...
> <snip>



As strange as it seems, I agree with the sales guy.  I consider DC's a "Throw away" investment.

If the money you put up is no big deal, in terms of losing all of it, than a DC is something to consider.

However, if security of your money has any bearing then the DC market should not be considered.

It really boils down to money.  My "Throw away" price point for HCC is $30k.

For BelleHavens $200k membership level it's $100k.  If I had all their information, that requires a NDA that I won't sign, then I'd perhaps move it higher.

So just set your "Throw Away Price Point" and if you can get it then become a DC member.

Therefore by my definition, everyone who is a DC member has found their "Throw Away Price Point" already and the more time goes by the more they get out of their investment.

Again, congrats on your membership.

P.S.
It would be interesting to find out a percentage of net worth where a price is "Throw Away".  Our salesrep views 9% - 3% Throw Away.  I'd shoot for 2.5% myself but that's just a guess.  It also has a lot to do with your feelings to that sales voice over the phone.

I'm surprised that the DC industry doesn't check into the XXX-rated phone sex industry and have some of those gals manning the phone; so to speak.


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## NeilGoBlue (Jun 3, 2007)

I agree that a certain percent 'on the margin' is throw away, or to use my words, 'at risk', but in the bellhavens model, I think that the worst case scenario is about 30%.  And that assumes a DC market collapse. (possible, but not likely).  If you can make it a few years before the collapse, you probably wouldn't lose anything as the real estate appreciates, or the memberships increase.  I was obviously comfortable with the risk I was taking.

We, of course could argue what's 'at risk' but I think we would agree that bellehavens, has the most protection of any club in my price range.


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## PerryM (Jun 3, 2007)

NeilGoBlue said:


> I agree that a certain percent 'on the margin' is throw away, or to use my words, 'at risk', but in the bellhavens model, I think that the worst case scenario is about 30%.  And that assumes a DC market collapse. (possible, but not likely).  If you can make it a few years before the collapse, you probably wouldn't lose anything as the real estate appreciates, or the memberships increase.  I was obviously comfortable with the risk I was taking.
> 
> We, of course could argue what's 'at risk' but I think we would agree that bellehavens, has the most protection of any club in my price range.



No doubt about it.

However, when a Category 5 hurricane hits even the strongest of structures is damaged.

The 3 in/1 out is a stumbling block to me and reduces my "Throw Away Price Point".  If it were 1 in/1 out I'd raise the figure.

If the entire DC industry gets attacked by the Drive-By Media for some reason there will be lots of folks wanting out of BelleHavens.  Its at that point you have the gut wrenching feeling that you should have read the fine print to your lawyer and had him tell you how he'd get out of everything you agreed to.


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## Elsway (Jun 3, 2007)

NeilGoBlue said:


> I've spent about 80 hours researching clubs.  I've talked to every club in my price range and some outside of my price range.  (I received a lot of expensive packages in the mail!)



I think I passed 80 hours a few weeks ago.   

Like you, I received the mailed portfolios - each of which included glossy brochures and DVDs, etc...  I have spoken with Exclusive Resorts, Private Escapes and Ultimate Resorts.  The other club under consideration is BelleHavens.  I was scheduled to speak with BH last week - but we got the time zone difference mixed up and we missed the call.



> Here were my requirements:
> 1) I wanted a club that would fit my needs for the next 10 years.
> 2) I didn't want to spend more than $125K.
> 4) Since I lived in MD, I wanted a fair amount of properties on the East Coast.
> ...



For me, a destination club seems like the best alternative to a vacation home...it is a way for me to attract visits from my children when they are grown and have their own families...I can treat extended family to some family-reunion type vacations...we can host friends...and it will enable me to get my fill of luxury home stays, allowing me to downsize my home a bit when I retire and move South.

I have always considered timeshares to be a weak value propositions - in large part because of the big markup (as demonstrated by the fairly consistent loss experience on resales).

Like you, I want a good mix of East Coast properties.  A few of the clubs seem Western oriented, and include a heavy ski area emphasis.  I live close to NYC and enjoy the city (on weekends, in the summer), so a good Manhattan presence is important to me.  For most people, I think it is good to have at least one destination that is a short drive from home - allows you to use more days, including short trips without advance notice, and saves on travel expenses.

I want a good online reservation system.  (I have grown accustomed to booking all of my vacations online and I would rather avoid phone contact as much as possible.  Exclusive Resorts has an excellent online system.  Private Escapes is weak.  Ultimate is okay.  I have not yet done a trial with BelleHavens, but I hear they have/are investing on upgrades.

The advertised services are similar for each club.  Ultimate Resorts only provides housekeeping twice per week (once mid week, once at check-in).

I'll keep my views on the financial stuff out of this post.  

I





> spoke with exclusive resorts.  (even though they weren't in my price range).  I kept challenging them on the lack of equity and what happens in the event of a market meltdown, etc.  They were very arrogant.  Their way of being was 'we are the biggest, we aren't going to fail'.   I pushed his buttons a little too much and he fired back with (and I quote) "our members have a networth of 4-12 million, 375K is nothing to them..."  That's when I hung up...



I have had a very good experience speaking with ER.  The sales rep is very professional.  I don't like ERs friends and family program.  The club charges $10,000 plus an extra 20% of annual dues for the privilege of being able to let family members use the club without your presence.  I pointed out that 25 days is 25 days and it shouldn't be such a big deal if I am at the property or my father is at the property - a day is a day.  They countered by saying that their experience is that most people don't use their entire allotment of days.  But, when extended family can use the property - all days are consumed - thereby increasing their occupancy rate and increasing wear and tear on properties.  



> I spoke with Bellehavens,  they right off the bat seemed the best, professional, the best houses in terms of furnishings, decorations, choices, etc.  The were up front about there mistakes in the past, where they were going in the future, etc.  They then bought "The Havens Club."  The Haven's club doesn't have any assets, but about 30 dues paying, non equity members came over. Later on, they announced their expansion plans for international travel and more eastern seaboard and carribean destinations.  That was important for me...



I like Bellehavens, but will reserve final thoughts until I speak with them...



> I spoke with HCC, I immediately dismissed them because I wanted a higher quality house, at least in the 2Mil range.  Though I think any timeshare owner would be much better off with HCC than a timeshare (my opinion)



Quality is vital.  When I leave my home on vacation I don't want to sacrifice on quality and amenities.  I would rather travel less often than travel at the low end of the market.



> I spoke with Ultimate Resorts.  I felt that their homes in the lower collection weren't as good as Bellehavens.  I also didn't like the pushiness of the sales guy.



I am looking at UR Elite.  These are the old T&H properties and they are actually higher end than Exclusive Resorts.  UR does have a slightly "seedy" element to their sales approach.



> I also spoke with Crescendo and Quintess.  I liked what they had to offer, but it was not in my price range.



Crescendo is a completely different concept.  It is structured to be an investment with privileges.  Quintess never responded to my request for information - except for sending me an e-mail inviting me to call them 



> When Bellehavens announced their price increase they also announced something else, they announced that they were going to increase the price they paid for the homes.  From 2Mil to between 2 and 3mil.  This alleviated my concern and, if I bought in now, with the additional price increases, I might even get some quick appreciation. (not to mention the homes they are going to open later this year and first of next year.)



I think the BH homes are high quality and well located.  At first I was concerned that the homes might not have private (or semi-private) pools.  I looked closely, and they do in fact have a good pool amenities.



> So, I called Stan Bonnemort and sent my deposit in.  I'm going to the Palm Coast home for a few days in July and will update you all.



I will probably (90%) make a deposit to see the docs.  I just got back from Paradise Island, I am going to Outerbanks NC next month.  And I have booked Aruba for next February.  Accordingly - I have already booked alot of my vacation time.  This may make it difficult for me to join BH prior to the price increases...

Thanks for posting Neil.


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## PerryM (Jun 3, 2007)

*Stop the presses....*

I can’t over stress the impact of a Drive-By Media (Dynasty media like ABC,NBC,CBS, New York Times and tens of thousands of others) attack on the DC industry.

I watch daily how they distort the facts to fit an agenda.  That agenda can be as simple as setting out to destroy another American business sector – one made up of rich folks is great sport.

Normally something sets them off and if it’s a slow news day anything that attracts their attention could do it.  Facts and the truth mean nothing to these folks – they have an agenda to follow and they follow it religiously.

It doesn’t take much imagination to see how they could take a fledgling industry who caters to rich folks and go for the jugular.  They don’t have to worry about loss of revenue from the DC industry – there is none to them.

Look at the horror stories in the Drive-By Media about sleazy timeshare salesreps – don’t think it can’t happen to the DC industry.  On top of it they could actually use the truth and paint some horrible scenarios.  One already did happen - the founding DC goes belly up.

This is an industry that can’t take much scrutiny in the first place and a deliberate attack by the Drive-Bys could be deviating.

That’s another thing that lowers my “Throw Away Price Point” - a lot.


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## puffpuff (Jun 3, 2007)

Be on the alert - some of the BH homes are on a reciprocol agreement with another DC. They dont own all the homes that are open at this time. 

In terms of home values, UR home are aroudn 1.5 mil.  BH homes around 2 mil,   and ER around 2 - 3 mil ( mostly in the low 2s)  , UR elite around 2-3 ( closer to 3s), Quintess around 3-4. 


UR and UR Elite have a lot more properties at this time. They are more family-share friendly, and upgrade friendly .  I am not sure what the BH policy is regarding the upgrade to another plan in the future. This is a consideration esp if you are concern with runaaway prices in the future.  BH has the least homes, and their expansion plan is subject to getting more members on board first. 



We shall leave the financial security portion of the discussion aside as it has already been beaten to death in various post in tug. 

The conceige service of all clubs are practically the same. Many of them subconctract out to the same people along with office internal support. 

For $ 125000 or less, the top three contenders seems to be :

Bellehaven, PE Platinum, UR.

 UR is very pushy, I agree. But I think the depth and breadth of their portfolio is worth a serious consdieratoin.


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## Steamboat Bill (Jun 3, 2007)

NeilGoBlue said:


> I spoke with HCC, I immediately dismissed them because I wanted a higher quality house, at least in the 2Mil range.  Though I think any timeshare owner would be much better off with HCC than a timeshare (my opinion)



This is what I have been posting for many months.

I like BelleHavens and PE and UR and ER.....but HCC really appeals to the TUG crowd.


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## Elsway (Jun 4, 2007)

PerryM said:


> I can’t over stress the impact of a Drive-By Media (Dynasty media like ABC,NBC,CBS, New York Times and tens of thousands of others) attack on the DC industry.
> 
> I watch daily how they distort the facts to fit an agenda.  That agenda can be as simple as setting out to destroy another American business sector – one made up of rich folks is great sport.
> 
> ...



PerryM, I can appreciate your concerns about media sensationalism (on the heels of the next club failure) affecting the DC industry.  But, T&H went bankrupt, and it did not affect demand for DCs.  If anything, demand seems to be accelerating.

So, the industry has already passed one test.  And the industry seems to be taking proper steps by refining their business models to 1) prevent a run on the bank, with proper gate features (3 in, 1 out), 2) raising their prices to levels which appear to be consistent with an adequate profit margin, and 3) raising capital from outside investors to cushion the membership liabilities (Quintess, Ultimate, Bellehavens are the most recent to announce new equity injections).

Don't discount the possibility that "rich folks", the target market for DCs, are more apt to react rationally (assessing the facts on their own) and not get snookered by media sensationalism.


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## PerryM (Jun 4, 2007)

*Arnold knows...*



Elsway said:


> <snip>
> So, the industry has already passed one test.
> <snip>
> 
> Don't discount the possibility that "rich folks", the target market for DCs, are more apt to react rationally (assessing the facts on their own) and not get snookered by media sensationalism.




I would not relate the net worth of a person to how they can be manipulated by the Drive-By Media.  Sometimes the high net worth person secretly wants to participate in the hoax.

Take Carbon Offset Credits as an example.  Link to a typical hoax 

Basically rich folks, like Arnold Schwarzenegger for example, want to reduce the carbon emissions they leave behind – why I don’t know.  So instead of cutting back and selling the G-3 he owns he buys Carbon Offset Credits from scam companies and feels better.  Theoretically the carbon offset company buys and plants trees.  However just one coast to coast flight in his G-3 will take almost 200 years of forest growth of the seedlings they plant.  Both Arnold and the carbon offset company feel better.

It would not take the Drive-By Media long to portray the DC worse than a timeshare and rich folks know that timeshares are for the common folks.  To be associated with a loser is right up there at the top of things they don’t want to do.

That’s my fear for the entire DC industry.  Will they skate thru and not be featured on 60 Minutes?  You know, one of those ambush interviews where they run after a DC member and ask why they don’t buy carbon offset credits instead of being selfish and live in $3 M condos.


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## Elsway (Jun 4, 2007)

puffpuff said:


> Be on the alert - some of the BH homes are on a reciprocol agreement with another DC. They dont own all the homes that are open at this time.



If the arragements are as I suspect, this fact doesn't concern me.

I am assuming that certain BH homes are made available to another club in exchange for the other club making certain homes available to BH.

I am assuming that the homes are of comparable value.

I am assuming that the added variety of locations makes BH more valuable to its members.  And this allows BH to test demand in certain locations before it committs to purchasing property in new locations.


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## Elsway (Jun 4, 2007)

PerryM said:


> I would not relate the net worth of a person to how they can be manipulated by the Drive-By Media.  Sometimes the high net worth person secretly wants to participate in the hoax.
> 
> Take Carbon Offset Credits as an example.  Link to a typical hoax
> 
> ...



Hedge funds are only made available to accredited investors (based on an income and net worth test).  Legislators, by designing this regulation, are assuming that high net worth individuals will do proper due diligence on their investments and will understand the risks.  A high net worth person can invest all of their money in a single hedge fund, if they choose, so this rule has nothing to do with the concept that they are only investing 'mad money'.

These hedge fund rules legitimize the idea that high net worth persons are more likely to understand the risks involved, and (presumably) less susceptible to the sensational opinions of a yellow journalist (reference to 60 minutes).


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## PerryM (Jun 4, 2007)

*Red Alert...*

My whole point is that the DC industry is so highly leveraged that a single sneeze in China could set of a set of events that have catastrophic consequences to their industry.

As an engineer by training, highly volatile and unstable structures always find an equilibrium point.

As long as the DC member has built this risk into their decision then nothing I'm saying should be new news.

It's the person who is contemplating a DC purchase, like I am, who needs to be aware of this tenuous structure the entire DC industry has placed itself in.  Even more stable companies, like BelleHavens, could get sucked up into a tornado that rips thru the DC landscape.

So far I've not found a DC that meets my price point with the risks involved.  I'm still looking and researching.


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## Elsway (Jun 4, 2007)

PerryM,  In the past year, we have had several sneezes, and the sky has not fallen for the DC industry.

Sneeze #1:  Tanner and Haley filed for bankruptcy protection.  Members are severely impaired.

Sneeze #2:  We are witnessing the worst residential home market in over 20 years.  In most markets, inventories of unsold homes are high and prices are dropping.

Sneeze #3:  US GDP growth declines to 0.6% in the first quarter of 2007.  Yet, Inflation is running above the FOMC's target level - preventing the FOMC from lowering interest rates. 

Sneeze #4 etc...:  China's stock market has dropped more than 6% for the second time in one week.  Iraq is imploding.  Iran and Russia are saber rattling.  Terrorists are seeking to blow up airports.  And on, and on, and on...

I don't think the DC industry is nearly as fragile as you portray...


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## PerryM (Jun 4, 2007)

*Devil in the detail*



Elsway said:


> PerryM,  In the past year, we have had several sneezes, and the sky has not fallen for the DC industry.
> 
> Sneeze #1:  Tanner and Haley filed for bankruptcy protection.  Members are severely impaired.
> 
> ...




Out of the Sneezes you cite, only the first one really has a direct impact on the DC industry.  It’s so far removed from real estate and home prices that I can’t see where those items would affect the DC industry.

It’s the irrational exuberance for highly leveraged real estate that is the Achilles Heel of the DC industry; perhaps a better analogy would be alcohol for an alcoholic.

I don’t pretend to be a CPA but I invest for a living.  I know trouble when I see it.  Sometimes I can’t put a finger on it but the DC has my trouble alarm at Red Alert.

I believe the timeshare market is in a Bubble – I can’t prove it but the timeshare market seems to be divorced from real estate reality – just like the DC industry.  These are two real estate related products that seem to be divorced from what they deal in.

I’ve not stopped buying timeshares since I can run an analysis that has me feeling confident at a certain price point.  That price point for a DC is very very low – I just don’t get a good “Vib” from the DC industry.

Too little emphasis is being placed on the founding company of the DC industry to go belly up.  That is a loud warning bell that seems to have been shrugged off.  Normally that first company dominates the industry for ever.

Consider me the devil’s advocate – if a DC can convince me to buy then that will mark a major change in the DC industry.  Or, a cheap-o DC comes along and meets my standard $30k throw away price point.


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