# Which Points-to-MF Ratio do you strive for / consider a good deal when shopping resales?



## 2travelinggoatz (Nov 15, 2018)

Hello again everyone... looking forward to your thoughts on this so, as a novice, I have a clearer understanding as to when to pull the trigger and purchase.  Thanks so much!!


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## dayooper (Nov 15, 2018)

2travelinggoatz said:


> Hello again everyone... looking forward to your thoughts on this so, as a novice, I have a clearer understanding as to when to pull the trigger and purchase.  Thanks so much!!



It all depends on what is OK with you. I believe many use the 0.15 MF/point mark. As a reference, that would be right where HGVC at The Flamingo is. Next year, due to rising MF's, it will probably be above that point.


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## PigsDad (Nov 15, 2018)

I agree that it depends.  I have three weeks that range from $.165 to $.177/point which I am fine with.  Two of my weeks are fixed week, ocean front weeks which I consider a bargain for the maintenance fee, and I almost always use those weeks.  My third week is just for points and while I could have done better (it was my first week that I purchased, resale of course), I still find good value with those points.  If I knew 13 years ago what I know now, I probably would have purchased a better MF/point ratio property, but that is water under the bridge.

I am currently in the process of another purchase which will include a ski week with a MF of $.168/point.  To me, that will be my best bargain yet due to the comparable price I would have to pay to rent the same week.  Like the ocean front weeks, I plan on using that week as well, so I am not just purchasing it for points.

BTW, these are all 2019 MF prices.

Kurt


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## Jason245 (Nov 15, 2018)

Imho you can drive yourself nuts looking for thr "best combination ". 

Consider the following facts:

1. The original owner paid north of 20-30k minimum for what you are buying.  (Saving you over 20k right out the gate ). 

2. At the end of the day you are generally talking about a 500 dollar difference maximum on mf for same point unit lowest mf to highest. 

3. The payback for that savings is usual around 10 years (price paid for lower fee vs price paid for higher fee). 

4. The value of timeshares can only ever go down(except for dvc which is a unicorn ).


My take is buy based on 2 criteria:

1. If you need home week preferences..buy where you want to go as that is only way to guarantee you get what you want. 

2. Spend the least amount possible for the least amount of points you need (don't overbuy), but preferably a Plat season point.

If 500 extra bucks in mf a year makes or breaks you in the purchase decision, then you probably shouldn't be buying in the first place.



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## alexadeparis (Nov 15, 2018)

I have a general one I apply to all my timeshares, not just HGVC. Whatever points currency value gets me a unit in the highest season at a rated (RCI Gold Crown or the II premier/elite) resort should be equal to right around $125 per bedroom per night, including MF and Exchange fees if applicable. In this case, I’ll use 9600 for a 3 bed HGVC unit. I have 2 4800 point Bay club units that cost me right around $2,500 with club fee per use.

So for me, a 3 bedroom unit is worth, at Max, barring some very special circumstances, $2500 in MF for a week’s use, a 2 bedroom should cost me no more than $1650 for a week’s use, and a 1 bedroom should have a total cost of $825 or less. We don’t book studios unless we are getting additional rooms for family to join us, but I would value that slightly less, at $500 per week. That’s my standard. My WSJ 3 bedroom pool villa exceeds that formula, but is very special, so that is the ONE exception to my usual rule.


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## 2travelinggoatz (Nov 15, 2018)

Jason245 said:


> Imho you can drive yourself nuts looking for thr "best combination ".
> 
> Consider the following facts:
> 
> ...



All good analysis, thank you.  I am one of those people who turns things inside out looking at all possible angles and viewpoints before purchasing.  This board has been SUPER helpful and I feel a lot more empowered and comfortable that I can now make a wise purchase.  Could not have done it without my fellow Tuggers, though, so thank you, thank you!!  I am now hoping to buy at Craigendarroch Lodges both for actual vacations there at times and points.  My family lives in Europe, so that is a wise move (we are in the USA).  So, let's see!  Fingers crossed.


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## PigsDad (Nov 16, 2018)

alexadeparis said:


> I have a general one I apply to all my timeshares, not just HGVC. Whatever points currency value gets me a unit in the highest season at a rated (RCI Gold Crown or the II premier/elite) resort should be equal to right around $125 per bedroom per night, including MF and Exchange fees if applicable.


If you are just looking for points, then I think a guideline like that is reasonable.  But I think it can really depend on if you are looking for a specialized location and/or time.  I mentioned above I am buying a ski week -- that is a 1BR for a MF of just over $1K.  That would be a fair amount over your guideline, but compared to what I would have to pay for equivalent accommodations (around double my MF), it is a bargain.

Kurt


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## GT75 (Nov 16, 2018)

I agree with you Kurt.   I know that I have looked at rentals for Breckenridge the most and also visited there the most.    Since you are buying to utilize a fixed week, then that makes sense.    If you were just buying for the points, then there are better deals out there.

I know that we have had threads before on "AirBnb/VRBO vs. TS".    I have considered this when owning at Valdoro in particular.    My conclusion is that I just like the known resort/location vs. spending more money anyways on a rental (at least in ski season).   It is also, so much easier to make a TS reservation (which can be changed/cancelled very easily) vs. making a rental reservation and sending money now.

There is also an interesting thread on HGVC and Marriott MFs - here.


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## Cyberc (Nov 16, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> If you are just looking for points, then I think a guideline like that is reasonable.  But I think it can really depend on if you are looking for a specialized location and/or time.  I mentioned above I am buying a ski week -- that is a 1BR for a MF of just over $1K.  That would be a fair amount over your guideline, but compared to what I would have to pay for equivalent accommodations (around double my MF), it is a bargain.
> 
> Kurt



I agree with you on this one. 

I bought my first HGVC with the intention to use it and I do most years. My second was strictly for points so I bought (after loooong time looking) the cheapest US hgvc there was in terms of points to mf ratio. I bought a 1Br in Vegas wth 6.200 annual points. First one got taken by hgvc even before going into ROfR at $9.000 second one passed at $5.000 go figure. 

The rule of thumb of buying platinum weeks does not come without at least one exception. My third hgvc was in NYC and I started by looking at a platinum week, in a studio I might add. It took several tries and the broker said you need to pay minimum $20k for it to pass rofr. My own research showed the same. 

That got me researching even more because $20k is a lot of money. If $20k got me 5.250 points in a studio plus platinum week, how much the better studio premiere would cost for a week in gold season with 5.100 points?

Answer was $14k and My thoughts was I didn’t care for the 150 points which I “lost” each year by buying a gold week. Since the mf for both studios are the same I went ahead and bought it and it passed rofr.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Nov 16, 2018)

One other thing to consider. Your age. I mention this, as none of us are immortal. How long will you be using the timeshare/points? There is an economic balancing act for timeshares, between the resale purchase price and the MFs. A low MF is usually balanced with a higher purchase cost, even (especially?) resale. How long you amortize the purchase cost affect your MF/point ratio, by requiring you to add the amortized amount to the MF in your calc. The typical breakevens run around 10 years. each one is different, so you need to calculate them yourself.


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## Panina (Nov 16, 2018)

2travelinggoatz said:


> Hello again everyone... looking forward to your thoughts on this so, as a novice, I have a clearer understanding as to when to pull the trigger and purchase.  Thanks so much!!


Points-to-MF Ratio is only important if you don’t need your home reservation advantage. If for example you want to go to marco island’s  eagles nest every February, best to own a week because trading into it will be extremely hard.  If you want to go to Myrtle Beach  every April, inventory is plenty and you will have no problem at 9 months out booking it.

Is there a certain place/ time you often want to go?


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## SmithOp (Nov 16, 2018)

I agree with the other replies, specially age related.  First purchased in my 40s and went with location so I could get the home resort advantage, mf ratio was not important.  

Now I’m retired and can travel off season and maximize point stretching in gold season its a pure points play.  Anything in the top 25 spreadsheet that GT has in the sticky.

It wasn’t easy to adjust ownership, I looked for a year before finding the right one.  Getting rid of my early buys was easy.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 16, 2018)

In case you haven't seen this. Here is a helpful spreadsheet of the MF/points ratios for 2018 assembled by @GT75

Hilton Grand Vacations Club 2019 Maintenance Fee List

To summarize what others have stated previously:


Points only matter if you plan to trade in the HGV system.
If you want to stay within your desired home resort and need club options in your home resort e.g. shorter stay, different check in day. Then look for the best MF/point in your resort for the desired unit size - usually platinum.
Run the numbers to balance the higher cost of buy-in vs. lower MF/point cost. Look for your B/E based on how long you plan to own.
If one of the following is your frequent destination, lowest MF/point (aka "points are points") does not apply because you will need to own at these properties to get decent reservations consistently. Apply #2 and #3 above to the units at these properties.

By Hilton Club (bHC) properties (NYC: W 57, HCNY, Residences, Quin; DC  District)
Oahu June, July, Aug, Xmas
Florida Gulf high season
Ski Weeks Valdoro, Sunrise
Portugal
Good luck!


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## hurnik (Nov 16, 2018)

I'll also throw in that MF ratio isn't necessarily the only calculation one should make, if just using "points are points" method.
The cost of the unit should be taken into consideration (IMO) and most of us that use this method also factor in either 10, 15, or 20 year breakdown.

Sometimes a free (or very low cost) unit with a slightly higher MF/point value may either be cheaper or "break even" if you have to spend $12-15k to get that "really low" MF/point valuation.


I've not got 4 contracts.  Could I lower my MF/point ratio?  Sure.
I'd have to give away (practically for free) my 3400 point unit and MAYBE get $1500 for my 4800 point unit and then I'd have to spend about $7k to replace it with a low-cost one (or if I really want the low one, probably would run about $16k)

All to get the average ratio from $0.175 or whatever it is now (have to recalculate) down to $0.16/point?
Not really worth it, IMO.


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## dayooper (Nov 16, 2018)

hurnik said:


> I'll also throw in that MF ratio isn't necessarily the only calculation one should make, if just using "points are points" method.
> The cost of the unit should be taken into consideration (IMO) and most of us that use this method also factor in either 10, 15, or 20 year breakdown.
> 
> Sometimes a free (or very low cost) unit with a slightly higher MF/point value may either be cheaper or "break even" if you have to spend $12-15k to get that "really low" MF/point valuation.
> ...



I totally agree with that sentiment. I think buying can e a bit different, though. If you are buying a "points is points" unit, you do want to find as low of a MF as you can. Should you include the buy in price? Absolutely. Should you consider how long you plan on using it? Absolutely! I also think what you can afford when you are ready to buy is a big deal too. We couldn't pay for a $9000 Boulevard unit with cash, but we could pay around $6000. So we found the best deal we could with that price point. Would I love to have that $850 MF from the Boulevard? Yup. We don't, but ours is still pretty low and cost us half as much.

We were very close to taking a free unit over the summer. We wound up turning it down because the MF's were too high and we would rarely have used the home week. The MF's for 3400 those points were more than our 7000 point platinum so we turned it down.


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## alexadeparis (Nov 17, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> If you are just looking for points, then I think a guideline like that is reasonable.  But I think it can really depend on if you are looking for a specialized location and/or time.  I mentioned above I am buying a ski week -- that is a 1BR for a MF of just over $1K.  That would be a fair amount over your guideline, but compared to what I would have to pay for equivalent accommodations (around double my MF), it is a bargain.
> 
> Kurt



I agree that a ski week would probably merit special consideration, and $1k for a one bedroom IS a bargain for a ski week.


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## 2travelinggoatz (Nov 17, 2018)

Panina said:


> Points-to-MF Ratio is only important if you don’t need your home reservation advantage. If for example you want to go to marco island’s  eagles nest every February, best to own a week because trading into it will be extremely hard.  If you want to go to Myrtle Beach  every April, inventory is plenty and you will have no problem at 9 months out booking it.
> 
> Is there a certain place/ time you often want to go?


Hello Panina, for our first one, Craigendarroch is our best option. Fixed week is good and if we can't go, just convert to points and go wherever.  Family can easily get to Scotland and the cost to travel is not cost-prohibitive for them. Other ideal locations would have been anywhere in Europe.  We live in the USA, but my husband loves Portugal.  I thought the next one we purchase would have to be in the USA and probably for summer travel if not just for points.  But I just read the post below and now I am thinking Portugal.  So, I will be on the lookout for a good deal next year sosometime Does this answer your question??


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## 2travelinggoatz (Nov 17, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> In case you haven't seen this. Here is a helpful spreadsheet of the MF/points ratios for 2018 assembled by @GT75
> 
> Hilton Grand Vacations Club 2019 Maintenance Fee List
> 
> ...



The one that made me gulp was Portugal!  Oich!!!  Really should own there then. USA will have to come after that. I have never seen Portugal resales so now I think that is what (esp my husband) would like to buy next.  Thanks so much for this super helpful info!  Really appreciate it.


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## DazedandConfused (Nov 17, 2018)

In my opinion, there really is no 100% perfect single purchase with low buy-in cost and low anual dues. As if you have low annual dues, then the purchase price will be higher and if the purchase price is low, then the dues are generally higher.

However, a blend of 2 contracts can sorta meet in the middle by having an average cost that is on the low end for purchase and low end for annual dues.

It is generally best to buy the largest point contract for the same unit size (i.e. 1 bedroom Plus or Platinum or Premier, whatever  they call it) as the dues will be the same as the lower point non-platinum rooms and it drives the cost per point lower.

On the other hand, you may be tempted to buy a mega cheap 5,000 or 7,000 gold week with slightly above average dues and initially the cost will be lower, but in 6-8 years or so, you will actually be paying more than if you bought a more expensive unit with lower dues. But it depends on how long you are an owner.

I find Las Vegas Boulevard and Kings Land to be pretty good sweet spots.

My sweet spot is around $1pp to buy (+/- 0.25) and .14 annual dues (+/- .03)

You may be able to buy at $0.50, but the dues will probably be .20

The lowest annual dues I have seen are .10 or so and generally are $1.50 to buy


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 17, 2018)

DazedandConfused said:


> I find Las Vegas Boulevard and Kings Land to be pretty good sweet spots.
> 
> My sweet spot is around $1pp to buy (+/- 0.25) and .14 annual dues (+/- .03)



In Vegas,  7K platinum units at Paradise (.137 pp + $1 ppt), Flamingo and some 7K+ units in Elara, also meets this criteria.  There may be a few others such as Scotland.


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## DazedandConfused (Nov 17, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> In Vegas,  7K platinum units at Paradise (.137 pp + $1 ppt), Flamingo and some 7K+ units in Elara, also meets this criteria.  There might be a few others such as Scotland.



The Vegas units have generally reasonable buy-in and annual dues for HGVC and a point is a point. I would urge extreme caution for Elara as some resale are old Westgate


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## Sky313 (Nov 17, 2018)

DazedandConfused said:


> In my opinion, there really is no 100% perfect single purchase with low buy-in cost and low anual dues. As if you have low annual dues, then the purchase price will be higher and if the purchase price is low, then the dues are generally higher.
> 
> However, a blend of 2 contracts can sorta meet in the middle by having an average cost that is on the low end for purchase and low end for annual dues.
> 
> ...



And each year, the threshold for "average", "good", and "excellent" MF to point ratio will only increase. With regards to the annual dues and MF and $/point, i think it's important to note that you are using "low prices" or "great-great" deals as your benchmark.  To get these #s, one has to continually monitor for the low prices/sweetspot and then pounce on it.  That does take time and effort, or negotiation with the seller.

My personal view is that as of 2018/2019 0.11 mf/pt ratio is considered great-excellent. Less than 0.11 mf/pt ratios are golden goose eggs and are hard to find (harder to find unit combinations in Las Vegas), or expensive to purchase (ie: Ocean Tower).  These golden goose eggs even on the resale spectrum have higher resale prices (if you can find them).  Scotland is the exception as these can be had resale pretty easily by calling/emailing the HGVC/HIGVC sales division and have relatively low purchase entry for platinum units. The downside is the exchange rate is subject to fluctuation - right now is quite good, but can worsen in the future.  Las Vegas platinium properties run from 0.12-0.15 on average and are good-great mf/pt ratios.  Many others outside of Las Vegas now range above 0.15 mf/pt ratio. Based on the MF/pt list created in the sticky, the median is around 0.14-0.17 and to me that implies "average-good" mf/pt ratios - not bad per se, but just not as "feel good" as the others.  The NY, Hawaii properties and ski-weeks on avg run higher (0.18 mf/pt and above) and although this is the case, they are considered more valuable so are not technically a bad purchase option if you use them as intended. The only way to get a "good/great/excellent /low" mf/pt ratio in Hawaii is to get one of the 14400 pt or higher pt packages, which have high entry point to purchase even on the resale spectrum.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Nov 18, 2018)

That's where the juggling comes in. A Kingsland 2 BDR Premier get 14,400 points. It will cost you north of $20,000 resale. 2 Bay Clubs 2BDR "A" Penthouses (at 7,000 points a week) will cost you $4-5,000 combined (if you're patient and look for deals). Say $16,000 difference, up front. Current maintenance fees for Kingsland are just under $1800, the maintenance fees for 2 Bay Clubs are currently around $3800 (with HGVC membership) or $2000 more.

16,000 divided by 2,000 = 8 years to break even. (closer to 10, if you consider the lost returns on the money paid up front.)


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## Jason245 (Nov 18, 2018)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> That's where the juggling comes in. A Kingsland 2 BDR Premier get 14,400 points. It will cost you north of $20,000 resale. 2 Bay Clubs 2BDR "A" Penthouses (at 7,000 points a week) will cost you $4-5,000 combined (if you're patient and look for deals). Say $16,000 difference, up front. Current maintenance fees for Kingsland are just under $1800, the maintenance fees for 2 Bay Clubs are currently around $3800 (with HGVC membership) or $2000 more.
> 
> 16,000 divided by 2,000 = 8 years to break even. (closer to 10, if you consider the lost returns on the money paid up front.)


But before you do this math, the OP needs to figure out how many points they need and will use annually. . 

You only save 2k/year if you use all the points. . If you only use 5-7k points a year you just threw out a lot of money and get to watch it thrown out every year.  

My philosophy is to always live in hgvc pocket (use up all your points and borrow some of next year's points for free..)

If you have to save points or convert to hotel points you bought to much and are paying hgvc even more money in fees for your error. 

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## SmithOp (Nov 18, 2018)

Jason245 said:


> My philosophy is to always live in hgvc pocket (use up all your points and borrow some of next year's points for free..)
> 
> If you have to save points or convert to hotel points you bought to much and are paying hgvc even more money in fees for your error.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



One mantra from TUG that I follow 









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## Jason245 (Nov 18, 2018)

SmithOp said:


> One mantra from TUG that I follow
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am running into a wall where we keep booking 2br instead of the 1br I initially planned. . As a result I am almost out of 2020 points and now on the brink of making another purchase. ..

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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 18, 2018)

Borrowing works when you have all HGVC points. It gets more complicated with the separation of bHC points. We end up saving bHC points at times because we don't want to waste expensive bHC points on Club accommodations that can be reserved with our borrowed and cheap HGVC Vegas Club points.

Given the high cost of the bHC points on a MF/Pt basis and relative value, I would rather spend $100 to save the expensive points and combine to upgrade to a NYC Central Park view or Penthouse the following year that retails for $1200+/night then spend on Club rooms that run $100 - $300 a night. (BTW we pay $1500 per year for W57 so it's not much more MF per year than other HGVC per the point made by @Jason245 )

Even though we save bHC at times, that does not mean we have too many points. We are considering adding another set of cheap resale points to use at Ocean Tower and Barbados resorts.

I personally wouldn't worry about adding too many points, because if they are good MF/point you can always sell the property because it will be in demand. We would always find ways to use them  unless there was a health or other disaster.


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## GT75 (Nov 18, 2018)

Sky313 said:


> The only way to get a "good/great/excellent /low" mf/pt ratio in Hawaii is to get one of the 14400 pt or higher pt packages, which have high entry point to purchase even on the resale spectrum.



I haven't updated the MF/points spreadsheet but KL 1 Br Phase I Premier 12600 pts with MFs $1429.28 or $0.1134/point is actually even better.


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## Hsahota1 (Nov 18, 2018)

Sky313 said:


> And each year, the threshold for "average", "good", and "excellent" MF to point ratio will only increase. With regards to the annual dues and MF and $/point, i think it's important to note that you are using "low prices" or "great-great" deals as your benchmark.  To get these #s, one has to continually monitor for the low prices/sweetspot and then pounce on it.  That does take time and effort, or negotiation with the seller.
> 
> My personal view is that as of 2018/2019 0.11 mf/pt ratio is considered great-excellent. Less than 0.11 mf/pt ratios are golden goose eggs and are hard to find (harder to find unit combinations in Las Vegas), or expensive to purchase (ie: Ocean Tower).  These golden goose eggs even on the resale spectrum have higher resale prices (if you can find them).  Scotland is the exception as these can be had resale pretty easily by calling/emailing the HGVC/HIGVC sales division and have relatively low purchase entry for platinum units. The downside is the exchange rate is subject to fluctuation - right now is quite good, but can worsen in the future.  Las Vegas platinium properties run from 0.12-0.15 on average and are good-great mf/pt ratios.  Many others outside of Las Vegas now range above 0.15 mf/pt ratio. Based on the MF/pt list created in the sticky, the median is around 0.14-0.17 and to me that implies "average-good" mf/pt ratios - not bad per se, but just not as "feel good" as the others.  The NY, Hawaii properties and ski-weeks on avg run higher (0.18 mf/pt and above) and although this is the case, they are considered more valuable so are not technically a bad purchase option if you use them as intended. The only way to get a "good/great/excellent /low" mf/pt ratio in Hawaii is to get one of the 14400 pt or higher pt packages, which have high entry point to purchase even on the resale spectrum.



When calculating the ratio are you using MF + club dues or just MF?


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## dayooper (Nov 18, 2018)

Hsahota1 said:


> When calculating the ratio are you using MF + club dues or just MF?



I just use the MF’s as the club dues are only charged once. If you have multiple intervals, you wouldn’t pay the dues for the others. I like comparing apples to apples in this case.


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## GT75 (Nov 18, 2018)

Hsahota1 said:


> just MF?



Just MFs for the reasons which @dayooper stated (at least that is how I calculate it).


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## DazedandConfused (Nov 19, 2018)

GT75 said:


> I haven't updated the MF/points spreadsheet but KL 1 Br Phase I Premier 12600 pts with MFs $1429.28 or $0.1134/point is actually even better.



True, but good luck finding one of those under $1.75 per point to buy


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## Sky313 (Nov 19, 2018)

Hsahota1 said:


> When calculating the ratio are you using MF + club dues or just MF?



Yes these are just MF.  

I like the argument that some of the break even points will be in 8-10 years with higher purchase price, lower MF fees.  However, in this day and age where AirBnB ,Homeaway, and similar sites are doing well, while Timeshare MF and dues continue to rise, who knows what timeshares or value HGVC will hold. Hopefully rate of MF increases will be less than hotels/room/condo rates, but I wonder.....  Also if decisions change or life events happen to make HGVC not worthwhile anymore, a higher purchase price typically means a higher resale price on the resale market, and sometimes is harder to liquidate at a good price.


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## ccwu (Nov 19, 2018)

We choose primarily by location.  We purchase NYC Hilton Residence Club from Hilton.  (2019 MF is not out yet.)  MF for 16,800 (1 BR penthouse platinum season) was $2756.13 or (0.164 per points)  

We also have NYC Hilton Club.  MF is $3237 for 2019 or (0.3237 per point)  We like the convenience and owner only club concept.  We can book a week in advance ir a few day in advance, or we can book 2 nights 12 months in advance (Home booking 2 night minimum). So we do not mind.  Our average MF is $0.1792 per points (with all added, eg boulevard, Pac Soleil, Kingsland, HVV all add together. 

For us, the location is the decision for purchase.


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## Hsahota1 (Nov 19, 2018)

Ok thanks! Makes sense not adding Club dues as it seems many people own multiple time shares. 

We just bought our first TS and our MF is 0.127/point for 2019.


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## DazedandConfused (Nov 20, 2018)

This debate really does NOT apply to people buying specific locations like NYC or Ski weeks as those have both high buyin prices and high annual dues, but for those buyers they are worth it to get the locations they want.

But for people that are very flexible with their travel dates and locations, then the debate over $/point buyin and $/point for annual dues is very important. Again, I am not sure what the perfect single buy is, but there are many good buys and many bad buys and it is best to spend some time learning the HGVC system before making a mistake.

I personally own both Kings land and Las Vegas Blvd and got very good buys on the resale market, but have seen slightly better buys. In the end it is so close that it becomes a rounding error and as long as I can vacation where and when I want and save money, that's all that matters.

I also find that some people made spectacular buys (less than $1pp) and (dues at $0.11pp) and more often than not, many-many peope bough from the developer and paid top dollar.


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## GT75 (Nov 22, 2018)

I noticed that my MF/point ratio increased again this year even with making a good purchase.    I ran some numbers through a spreadsheet using a 3.5% yearly increase in MFs.    Here is the results:


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## DannyTS (Nov 22, 2018)

A lot of people dismiss the power of low fees, I do not understand why. For an identical number of points, you can make a very decent return on the extra money you spend. I say make but if fact you save which is also tax free. 
I will give an example.
7000 points, EY
contract a) has MF of $900, contract b) has MF of 1400. 
Say contract a) costs  7000 dollars,  contract b) "only" 2,000 dollars

This is a 10% tax free return (or saving) on the additional money you spend, guaranteed and tax free! This is a pretty good deal to me.


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## Jason245 (Nov 22, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> A lot of people dismiss the power of low fees, I do not understand why. For an identical number of points, you can make a very decent return on the extra money you spend. I say make but if fact you save which is also tax free.
> I will give an example.
> 7000 points, EY
> contract a) has MF of $900, contract b) has MF of 1400.
> ...




your savings doesn't get realized until ~10 years of ownership.

I think you are confusing a timeshare with an investment, the only savings that should ever really be calculated IMHO is the difference between what you are paying in MF vs the cost to rent a similar unit for the time you want it.  The buy in is a sunk cost that one should assume would never be recovered. 

If you pay MF of $1400 but save $2k in the cost of a similar hotel room or rental , I would argue you are doing a lot better than the person who paid $900 in MF and is using it on accomodations that can be rented that would only save them $500 as compared to the cost of a similar hotel room or rental.


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## DannyTS (Nov 22, 2018)

Jason245 said:


> your savings doesn't get realized until ~10 years of ownership.
> 
> I think you are confusing a timeshare with an investment, the only savings that should ever really be calculated IMHO is the difference between what you are paying in MF vs the cost to rent a similar unit for the time you want it.  The buy in is a sunk cost that one should assume would never be recovered.
> 
> If you pay MF of $1400 but save $2k in the cost of a similar hotel room or rental , I would argue you are doing a lot better than the person who paid $900 in MF and is using it on accomodations that can be rented that would only save them $500 as compared to the cost of a similar hotel room or rental.



I am just saying that the saving is a great return on your extra cost.  I do not consider a timeshare an investment but i cannot ignore the annual cost and the fact that the owner of a bad contract  may have to pay to get rid of it after paying a large amount of money year after year. A good contract should keep some if not all the value in time.

I have seen many good contracts (low MF/point) on ebay with 30-50 bids from multiple buyers that eventually sell for thousands of dollars while the others do not get any interest and are not bought even if they are given away so I must not be the only one who thinks that way. If you were right high MF contracts would sell like hot cakes.

In my example the two contracts have a $500 difference per year in MF. We both know the difference can be even a thousand or more in some cases. This is in perpetuity  by the way it is not one, or 3 or 10 years. I can argue that any any point in time not only in 10 years the owner of the bad contract is losing. 

I do not understand the argument that the saving is only realized after 10 years. You enjoy a lower payment every year.


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## Jason245 (Nov 22, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I am just saying that the saving is a great return on your extra cost.  I do not consider a timeshare an investment but i cannot ignore the annual costs and the fact that the owner of a bad contract  may have to pay to get rid it after paying a large amount of money year after year. A good contract should keep some if not all the value in time.
> 
> I have seen many good contracts (low MF/point) on ebay with 30-40 bids that eventually sell for thousands of dollars while the others do not get any interest and are not bought even if they are given away so I must not be the only one who thinks that way. If you were right high MF contracts would sell like hot cakes.


I paid nothing (literally) for two bay club contracts. . I assume that when the time comes for me to put them In the bargain deals forum as a give away that they will be claimed within less than a day.. if that isn't a hot cake I don't know what is. 

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## DannyTS (Nov 22, 2018)

Jason245 said:


> I paid nothing (literally) for two bay club contracts. . I assume that when the time comes for me to put them In the bargain deals forum as a give away that they will be claimed within less than a day.. if that isn't a hot cake I don't know what is.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


can you give more details (season, points, size, MF for each)? The fact that you got them for free says nothing about your long term costs. How many years ago did you get them?

From what i see in the MF list, the best Bay club MF (platinum) are around 20 cents per point, they are actually among the most expensive in the club to maintain so i see where you are coming from.

By the way, there are  600 timeshares listings on ebay right now, most of them cost nothing but still nobody wants them. Do not assume just because you give away a high MF timeshare that somebody is going to take it. I will stick with my philosophy (learned here on TUG) that one should buy the best he/she can afford


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## Jason245 (Nov 22, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> can you give more details (season, points, size, MF for each)? The fact that you got them for free says nothing about your long term costs. How many years ago did you get them?
> 
> From what i see in the MF list, the best Bay club MF (platinum) are around 20 cents per point, they are actually among the most expensive in the club to maintain so i see where you are coming from.
> 
> By the way, there are  600 timeshares listings on ebay right now, most of them cost nothing but still nobody wants them. Do not assume just because you give away a high MF timeshare that somebody is going to take it. I will stick with my philosophy (learned here on TUG) that one should buy the best he/she can afford


To each there own.. but look at the bay club in bargain deals forum and you will see how quickly they are off the market. .

Again. . I view timeshares as a different type of financial product than you. 

I see them as a way to save money on comparable trips. . So even though my 4800 points a year are higher than yours at a cost per point,  I still end saving around 1 to 2k per year in what rentals would have cost me. . 

I can measure my vacation dollar savings every year and that is my focus. . Maybe it is just me, but zero out of poket for 1 to 2k a year in savings is better to me than 5k out of pocket for 1.5k to 2.5k a year in savings. But again to each their own and as long as you are happy with your decision that is all that matters. 

Everyone has their own way of doing the math that works for them. .just like decisions to buy cars. . Models brands used vs new .. driving till wheels fall off or trading in every few years.  

My goal in life is to make above average decisions and buying resale has saved me 10s of thousands as compared to retail on timeshares. . I think that should be the yard stick everyone starts out against.. 

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## DannyTS (Nov 22, 2018)

Jason245 said:


> To each there own.. but look at the bay club in bargain deals forum and you will see how quickly they are off the market. .
> 
> Again. . I view timeshares as a different type of financial product than you.
> 
> ...


I am not sure i understand what is your maintenance fee for a 4800 contract. I assume it is $1300 for a 1 bedroom platinum 4800 points? There are places where you would pay half of that for the same number of points. 

I am not comparing to hotels because i am passed that point. I now want to see what is the best i can do within the club with a certain budget in mind.  I continue to believe that buying a low MF contract is the way to go because it means savings over the years that are worth many times your initial additional cost. 

I am curious though, if you could get the same number of points every year with no maintenance fee, would you pay anything for the contract or you would expect to get it for free as well?


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## Panina (Nov 22, 2018)

Jason245 said:


> To each there own.. but look at the bay club in bargain deals forum and you will see how quickly they are off the market. .
> 
> Again. . I view timeshares as a different type of financial product than you.
> 
> ...





DannyTS said:


> I am just saying that the saving is a great return on your extra cost.  I do not consider a timeshare an investment but i cannot ignore the annual cost and the fact that the owner of a bad contract  may have to pay to get rid of it after paying a large amount of money year after year. A good contract should keep some if not all the value in time.
> 
> I have seen many good contracts (low MF/point) on ebay with 30-50 bids from multiple buyers that eventually sell for thousands of dollars while the others do not get any interest and are not bought even if they are given away so I must not be the only one who thinks that way. If you were right high MF contracts would sell like hot cakes.
> 
> ...



I agree overall with @Jason245.  Whereas I understand point to cost to mf ratio formulas it is not so straight forward.  How you will use your purchase, how old you are, upfront costs, what you want to save on vacation costs, etc. all can affect how you look at acquiring a week. I also do not rely that mfs that are low today will be low tomorrow.  I have been around timesharing long enough to see markets bottom out, mfs rise quickly, emergency assessments occur, markets become saturated in certain area, timeshare companies being taken over or rules changing to the dimishment of value to an owner.

With that said, free hgvc worth at least 3400 points seem to be gotten and easily given away even if mfs are on the higher side.  Some take them to try the system, to not have cash outlay, because they like it as a home resort, because it’s a fixed week that is desirable to them, etc.  Maybe to others mathematically and logically it doesn’t make sense but to the taker it does.

Value is different to each person.  Value is more then $, it is also based on individual goals and preferences.


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## Sky313 (Nov 22, 2018)

Jason245 said:


> your savings doesn't get realized until ~10 years of ownership.
> 
> I think you are confusing a timeshare with an investment, the only savings that should ever really be calculated IMHO is the difference between what you are paying in MF vs the cost to rent a similar unit for the time you want it.  The buy in is a sunk cost that one should assume would never be recovered.
> 
> If you pay MF of $1400 but save $2k in the cost of a similar hotel room or rental , I would argue you are doing a lot better than the person who paid $900 in MF and is using it on accomodations that can be rented that would only save them $500 as compared to the cost of a similar hotel room or rental.



I agree with the idea that timeshare is not an investment in real-estate terms.  The amount saved via MF / year and cost of ownership after 10 years is a personal decision for most.  Some buy/sell much sooner than 10 years for various reasons. 

However, I don't view timeshares as a sunk cost.  Could it be ... yes, if the property you chose or the season you chose (silver, some gold seasons) has little value due to high MF/pt ratio or location.  For the patient buyer, you can get good deals on the resale market that minimize buy in cost and MF cost.  You could even use the property for 10 years perhaps and resale the original buy-in at little to no lost if done properly.  All retail values have >70-99% sunk cost (over time), but we're talking resale here. 

In my opinion, HGVC has one of the better resale options out there.

In the case where you can get a HGVC timeshare for "0-$1 plus transfer/registration fees, the only "sunk" cost is minimal and due to the reputation and ease of use of HGVC, it should theoretically be easy to offload a HGVC product (at least this point in time) - just don't ever buy a "silver" season week.


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## Jason245 (Nov 22, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I am not sure i understand what is your maintenance fee for a 4800 contract. I assume it is $1300 for a 1 bedroom platinum 4800 points? There are places where you would pay half of that for the same number of points.
> 
> I am not comparing to hotels because i am passed that point. I now want to see what is the best i can do within the club with a certain budget in mind.  I continue to believe that buying a low MF contract is the way to go because it means savings over the years that are worth many times your initial additional cost.
> 
> I am curious though, if you could get the same number of points every year with no maintenance fee, would you pay anything for the contract or you would expect to get it for free as well?


You do realize that you can rent rooms for hilton timeshares on hilton.com? I have gotten plenty of nice vistana and holiday in vacation club stays for very reasonable proces per night as well.. open season gives you rental access as well as rci last call? Heck I even got diamond resorts rentals for inexpensive direct from them.

Trying to get the best deal in club is like driving all around town chasing the lowest gas price.. the savings isn't generally worth the time investment...and sometimes by the time you get there, another station on thr other side of town becomes cheaper because of a subsidy they are getting.  


Now as for your hypothetical, knowing what I know about how timeshares work,  I would run for the hills from a contract like that. . Zero mf = an unsustainable pyramid that will collapse in on itself. 

I buy what I understand and can take maximum advantage of for minimum cost on my part.. end results : I paid nothing to save 1 to 2k a year out of pocket which I have realized over the last 5 years of happy ownership.  To me that is 5 to 10k in my pocket well worth it especially when combined with the priceless memories my family has made at prices I can afford.  

I am actually now looking into wyndhum  because now that the kids are getting older traveling out of state to their locations is starting to become more feasible  (lots of properties on lakes or near great hiking etc that hilton properties just arnt at yet). . Although who knows might add some more hilton in the process. 







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## DannyTS (Nov 22, 2018)

Jason245 said:


> You do realize that you can rent rooms for hilton timeshares on hilton.com? I have gotten plenty of nice vistana and holiday in vacation club stays for very reasonable proces per night as well.. open season gives you rental access as well as rci last call? Heck I even got diamond resorts rentals for inexpensive direct from them.
> 
> Trying to get the best deal in club is like driving all around town chasing the lowest gas price.. the savings isn't generally worth the time investment...and sometimes by the time you get there, another station on thr other side of town becomes cheaper because of a subsidy they are getting.
> 
> ...


I am going to anchor this in reality. This is the calculator that allows you to know the present value of a perpetuity. 

https://www.money-zine.com/calculat...perpetuity-and-growing-perpetuity-calculator/

You will have to fill out with your own variables. I will give you an example:

Dollar Amount of Cash Flow ($) 500 (how much you can save in Maintenance fees every year between 2 contracts (expensive vs cheap)
Discount rate 5%. This is the tricky part and it depends on the personal financial situation. If you have any debt that cannot be paid off right away (including a mortgage), you put the highest interest you pay. If you do not have debt but you have investments, you have to put a realistic long term after tax rate of return. Let's say it is 5%. The result is $10,000. Most people would agree, 5% consistently on an after tax basis is quite high because you have to compare to a risk free return since the money you save is pretty much guaranteed. But you can just chose your own numbers to see how much money you will be sinking in time, in today dollars.


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## DazedandConfused (Nov 23, 2018)

Jason245 said:


> I paid nothing (literally) for two bay club contracts. . I assume that when the time comes for me to put them In the bargain deals forum as a give away that they will be claimed within less than a day.. if that isn't a hot cake I don't know what is.



This is one way to buy into HGVC....BUT the annual dues is about double Kings land or Las Vegas, thus the extra .12 per point will have an effect on the long term value and in 8 years or so of owning, you will probably be paying more than if you bough a more expensive resort like Kings Land with lower annual dues.



Jason245 said:


> Trying to get the best deal in club is like driving all around town chasing the lowest gas price.. the savings isn't generally worth the time investment...and sometimes by the time you get there, another station on thr other side of town becomes cheaper because of a subsidy they are getting.



I disagree and 100% believe that trying to get the best deal is definitely worth the time learning the system or shopping for a deal. What I find, is that the more you read, study, shop, the better you understand the system. However, not everyone will agree what the best deal is. Some want a low buyin price and are not concerned with annual dues and others want low annual dues and don;t mind paying more upfront.


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## GT75 (Nov 23, 2018)

I am not sure that I was following/understanding the previous comments so I put two scenarios into the spreadsheet. Here is the assumptions that I used:
Bay Club 7000 pts No Cost except transfer fees. ($399+$599)
Flamingo 7000 pts Cost $7000 + transfer fees ($399+$599)
MFs come from what TUG members have posted.


 


So, to me it depends on how long you plan to own your TS.


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## DannyTS (Nov 23, 2018)

GT75 said:


> I am not sure that I was following/understanding the previous comments so I put two scenarios into the spreadsheet. Here is the assumptions that I used:
> Bay Club 7000 pts No Cost except transfer fees. ($399+$599)
> Flamingo 7000 pts Cost $7000 + transfer fees ($399+$599)
> MFs come from what TUG members have posted.
> ...


Precisely. I would only  add that if you consider that Flamingo will hold some if not all of the resale value, the higher initial cost proves even more economical in the long run.


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## Jason245 (Nov 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I am going to anchor this in reality. This is the calculator that allows you to know the present value of a perpetuity.
> 
> https://www.money-zine.com/calculat...perpetuity-and-growing-perpetuity-calculator/
> 
> ...


I think we will just have to agree to disagree.  As I said previous,  my goals are different than yours. . I am using hgvc to save money I would have spent on vacations for rentals of comparable locations and venues and times and create lasting memories. (Cost avoidance). For example when I go to marco island I can rent a 2br on the beach for 4 to 500 a night or I can use my points for under 200 a night saving me 2 to 300 a night. 

You are trying to buy into hgvc with the least amount of mf cost/point regardless of how and where you use it. 

Are you paying less a year than me.. yes.. do I have a bad deal that should never be got.. well according to the math above I don't think so since I am getting 2 to 300 a night in value I didn't have to pay for. 





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## Jason245 (Nov 23, 2018)

GT75 said:


> I am not sure that I was following/understanding the previous comments so I put two scenarios into the spreadsheet. Here is the assumptions that I used:
> Bay Club 7000 pts No Cost except transfer fees. ($399+$599)
> Flamingo 7000 pts Cost $7000 + transfer fees ($399+$599)
> MFs come from what TUG members have posted.
> ...


I think 5 percent increase annually is a little hight.. but layer onto that the use of those points and the value savings.  E.g. if the user of the bay club points uses them only in Honolulu where rentals of similar accommodation for 7 nights would have cost 2 to 3 times mf vs using the flamingo points in Vegas or olando where the savings is probably closer to 25 percent.. .. and which is better?

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## Jason245 (Nov 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> Precisely. I would only  add that if you consider that Flamingo will hold some if not all of the resale value, the higher initial cost proves even more economical in the long run.


People who bought bitcoin, tulips, sears stock, enron and worldcom all said similar things.  

I don't trust in value retention in timeshare products.   To many variables that are beyond my control and way to much ambiguity and control for the other party (hgvc) who has a financial interest in selling retail not resale properties.  

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## GT75 (Nov 23, 2018)

Jason245 said:


> I think 5 percent increase annually is a little high



I agree.    I think that 3.5% would be more reasonable.    That is what HGVC average MFs have increased over the past couple of years.


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## GT75 (Nov 23, 2018)

I like the difference of opinions, but I don't think that this is necessary.    Therefore, I am closing this thread and deleting the last several post.


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