# New Marriott timeshare at Disney?



## nanceetom (Mar 30, 2017)

We Judy completed a presentation And was told there is going to be 3-4 floors with 1/2?bedrooms and full kitchen facilities T the Disney Dolphin property since Marriott bought out SPG.  It was also noted, Disney tickets would be included.  Anyone have any knowledge on that?
Also, the same items were shared that since we are 'only' legacy owners, we will begin to not have access to new properties and Aldo have non priority access right now on all that is offered, except for the 53 original resorts!!  Are these facts given on target??


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## Saintsfanfl (Mar 30, 2017)

That's not a timeshare and the SPG timeshares were not part of the purchase anyway. Dolphin and Swan were SPG managed hotels so they are now controlled by Marriott hotels. Also, Marriott hotels and MVCI are separate companies.

What is it that you own and are you enrolled in DC points? An unenrolled legacy week owner only has access to what they own. If someone is enrolled then they can use their DC points the same as anyone else.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 30, 2017)

nanceetom said:


> We Judy completed a presentation And was told there is going to be 3-4 floors with 1/2?bedrooms and full kitchen facilities T the Disney Dolphin property since Marriott bought out SPG.  It was also noted, Disney tickets would be included.  Anyone have any knowledge on that? ...



With Starwood hotels now under the Marriott umbrella it won't be a surprise if MVW contracts with any of them to refurb some of the inventory to Pulse-like properties, because that's been their MO with Marriott hotel properties since the DC inception. However, the Dolphin and Swan hotels at Disney World have not been mentioned specifically in any of the official MVW releases that reference future properties. In other words, I wouldn't take sales reps' word that it's definitely going to happen, but I think it eventually could.

As for Disney theme park tickets, if anything they might offer the same packages that are available now to the hotel guests but I think that would require another separate contractual agreement between MVW and Disney.  It couldn't be done in the same contract that MVW would have with the Swan/Dolphin hotel owners because those hotels are not owned by Disney.  I doubt that the sales reps would be in the loop on something like this until/unless the property actually becomes available to Marriott timeshare owners (if it ever does.)



nanceetom said:


> Also, the same items were shared that since we are 'only' legacy owners, we will begin to not have access to new properties and Aldo have non priority access right now on all that is offered, except for the 53 original resorts!!  Are these facts given on target??



(This is copied from another post a few days ago.)  It may be true that at some point in the future MVW can/will segregate certain inventory for DC Trust Points-use only but despite whatever the sales reps may say, MVW has given absolutely no indication that's their intent. Until/unless they do it, their system of manipulating all inventory through the DC Exchange Company is resulting in DC Exchange Points successfully gaining immediate access when the 13-mos Reservation Windows open to all but the highest-demand Trust intervals. And even with those, they're made available via the Exchange Company at the 12-mos window.


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## larryallen (Mar 30, 2017)

It sounds like a timeshare SALES presentation to me.


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## rthib (Mar 30, 2017)

Hotel is not owned by Marriott (or MVCI). Land is leased from Disney, who has a say in design, changes etc...  I doubt they would allow any changes to support a time share across the street from two of their properties.


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## Fairwinds (Mar 30, 2017)

rthib said:


> Hotel is not owned by Marriott (or MVCI). Land is leased from Disney, who has a say in design, changes etc...  I doubt they would allow any changes to support a time share across the street from two of their properties.



Right on point, I don't believe this one could happen. I've even heard rumors that Disney had trading restrictions against timeshare within a certain distance of their property. Anyone ever heard of that?

Tried to research it and found myself right back on TUG:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...cannot-exchange-into-disney-vc-resorts.98737/


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## Saintsfanfl (Mar 30, 2017)

Fairwinds said:


> Right on point, I don't believe this one could happen. I've even heard rumors that Disney had trading restrictions against timeshare within a certain distance of their property. Anyone ever heard of that?
> 
> Tried to research it and found myself right back on TUG:
> 
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...cannot-exchange-into-disney-vc-resorts.98737/



It's not just Disney. It's Marriott and Westgate as well. It is a regional block and it is common in high timeshare areas. It's in Williamsburg as well. I think this is off topic though. The OP wasn't getting into II and trading. It was a theoretical Marriott internal issue.


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## Saintsfanfl (Mar 30, 2017)

rthib said:


> Hotel is not owned by Marriott (or MVCI). Land is leased from Disney, who has a say in design, changes etc...  I doubt they would allow any changes to support a time share across the street from two of their properties.



This is true. Marriott owns only a handful of properties. The owner of the Dolphin and Swan is Tishman Realty & Construction Corporation and MetLife. Starwood is just the management company.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 30, 2017)

I put the odds of this ever happening at less than 1%. Doesn't the owner of the Swan and Dolphin simply lease the land from Disney? Were the properties even owned by Starwood, now Marriott International? If the land is simply leased, I don't see why Disney would allow a competing timeshare to sell on their land. When they first opened WDW, they needed hotels and rooms, so Disney allowed several companies to build hotels, many are near Disney Springs, Swan and Dolphin is another.


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## Saintsfanfl (Mar 30, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> I put the odds of this ever happening at less than 1%. Doesn't the owner of the Swan and Dolphin simply lease the land from Disney? Were the properties even owned by Starwood, now Marriott International? If the land is simply leased, I don't see why Disney would allow a competing timeshare to sell on their land. When they first opened WDW, they needed hotels and rooms, so Disney allowed several companies to build hotels, many are near Disney Springs, Swan and Dolphin is another.



I agree. If there is anything to the story it is the hotel and has nothing to do with timeshares.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 30, 2017)

I would expect Marriott to finish out Harbour Lake and Lakeshore Reserve before adding another property in Orlando.


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## Fairwinds (Mar 31, 2017)

Saintsfanfl said:


> It's not just Disney. It's Marriott and Westgate as well. It is a regional block and it is common in high timeshare areas. It's in Williamsburg as well. I think this is off topic though. The OP wasn't getting into II and trading. It was a theoretical Marriott internal issue.



My point was only to say that Disney will not welcome competition if they have any say in the matter


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## Saintsfanfl (Mar 31, 2017)

Fairwinds said:


> My point was only to say that Disney will not welcome competition if they have any say in the matter



I don't think they can control it. The hotel isn't owned or run by Disney. They welcomed the competition when they leased the land. I am talking hotels here though and not DVC vs MVC.


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## Saintsfanfl (Mar 31, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> I would expect Marriott to finish out Harbour Lake and Lakeshore Reserve before adding another property in Orlando.



I'm wondering if it will ever happen. Orlando has evolved into a budget destination. Lakeshore is in a difficult market position. I can see Harbour Lake going first.


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## Fairwinds (Mar 31, 2017)

Saintsfanfl said:


> I don't think they can control it. The hotel isn't owned or run by Disney. They welcomed the competition when they leased the land. I am talking hotels here though and not DVC vs MVC.



Ok; am I missing something? You agree when it's said in posts 5 & 9 but you disagree with me when I also agree and offer evidence of their desire to thwart competition.


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## icydog (Mar 31, 2017)

I for one would love it but that its never going to happen. Disney fought the building of Bonnet Creek tooth and nail. They are never going to agree to have a Marriott timeshare set in the middle between Disney's Beach Club Villas and Disney's Boardwalk Villas.


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## Saintsfanfl (Mar 31, 2017)

Fairwinds said:


> Ok; am I missing something? You agree when it's said in posts 5 & 9 but you disagree with me when I also agree and offer evidence of their desire to thwart competition.



Sorry I am talking about the hotels. I agree that there is not likely to be a timeshare there for many reasons. Since the salesperson referenced the merger any truth to the story is likely to do with the hotel owners or hotel management. The salespeople love to tout all these things that are not timeshare related and offer little to no benefit.


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## nanceetom (Mar 31, 2017)

nanceetom said:


> We Judy completed a presentation And was told there is going to be 3-4 floors with 1/2?bedrooms and full kitchen facilities T the Disney Dolphin property since Marriott bought out SPG.  It was also noted, Disney tickets would be included.  Anyone have any knowledge on that?
> Also, the same items were shared that since we are 'only' legacy owners, we will begin to not have access to new properties and Aldo have non priority access right now on all that is offered, except for the 53 original resorts!!  Are these facts given on target??



I really pushed for details, since this sounded like a 'selling' pitch.  He repeatedly said the top 3-4 floors would be full 1 and 2 bedroom villas.  Left not really believing this, but thought maybe  someone here had heard something about this!


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## Saintsfanfl (Mar 31, 2017)

nanceetom said:


> I really pushed for details, since this sounded like a 'selling' pitch.  He repeatedly said the top 3-4 floors would be full 1 and 2 bedroom villas.  Left not really believing this, but thought maybe  someone here had heard something about this!



It could possibly be but the point I was trying to make is that it would not be a timeshare.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 31, 2017)

There is a reason that the Swan and Dolphin don't actually carry a brand name (Sheraton, Westin, etc) on them. They have always been known as Walt Disney World Swan and Dolphin. If all branding is absent at this property, I simply don't see how they could convert any part of them to timeshare.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 31, 2017)

Now that you've all set me straight I agree that Disney probably wouldn't allow MVW to compete with them, so wouldn't allow branding of any refurbed units at the Swan and Dolphin to MVC-Pulse properties.  BUT the Swan and Dolphin hotel owners could probably refurb some units as suites/1BR/2BR villas, if those don't already exist, and make them available to DC Members the same way other Marriott-umbrella hotel properties do via the DC Explorer Collection.

MVW would be stupid to not explore every possible opportunity now that the Swan and Dolphin are in their portfolio, and they're not stupid.  They'd make it worth Disney's while, I'm sure, to work with them to get Marriott timeshare owners that much closer to Disney's timeshare sales presentations.


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## Saintsfanfl (Mar 31, 2017)

SueDonJ said:


> Now that you've all set me straight I agree that Disney probably wouldn't allow MVW to compete with them, so wouldn't allow branding of any refurbed units at the Swan and Dolphin to MVC-Pulse properties.  BUT the Swan and Dolphin hotel owners could probably refurb some units as suites/1BR/2BR villas, if those don't already exist, and make them available to DC Members the same way other Marriott-umbrella hotel properties do via the DC Explorer Collection.
> 
> MVW would be stupid to not explore every possible opportunity now that the Swan and Dolphin are in their portfolio, and they're not stupid.  They'd make it worth Disney's while, I'm sure, to work with them to get Marriott timeshare owners that much closer to Disney's timeshare sales presentations.



I agree and what you are describing was what I was referring to when I said I don't think Disney can control it.


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## rthib (Mar 31, 2017)

Saintsfanfl said:


> I agree and what you are describing was what I was referring to when I said I don't think Disney can control it.


Actually they can control it. Any changes to the structure (inside or out) have to be approved by Disney, that is part of the lease agreement.
So Disney would have to approve the conversion. Since Disney is the process of expand the number of hotel rooms they are offering by constructing a new tower, I do not think they would allow it.
Also, DVC is also building out new or recent on site properties (Polynesian and Wilderness lodge are the latest) also don't see them want to offer competition to those units.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 31, 2017)

Swan and Dolphin Presidential Suites

_"The Walt Disney World Swan and Dolphin Resort offers eight Presidential Suites featuring elegant bathroom and bedroom appointments richly designed in residential style décor. These high-end suites offer a sophisticated palette of colors, contemporary amenities, and an overall ambiance that’s equally appealing to the business client as it is to the vacationing resort guest._

_Entry foyers welcome the discerning traveler. Original works of art, a 55” widescreen flat panel LCD TV, full WiFi and a baby grand piano distinguish each remarkable suite. Rich fabrics, elegant lighting, custom furniture and understated accessories complete the look. Kitchens feature new appliances, colors and surfaces one would find in an upscale private home. And the integration of the living and dining rooms with the adjoining bedrooms create a pleasing continuity throughout each suite."_

Check out the Rooms & Suites pages at the above link - these properties already have inventory that ranges from standard hotel rooms to the expansive Multi-Bedroom/Kitchen suites described in the quote.  Perhaps Disney wouldn't contract with MVW to allow booking with DC Points and advertising by Marriott Vacation Club, but with Marriott, Int'l as the manager there will eventually be availability via Marriott Rewards Points which can be obtained by converting DC Points or enrolled Weeks.  Even when they've had written rules saying that MRP's earned in specific ways can't be used in other specific ways, they have a dismal track record of enforcing those rules.

Including the Swan and Dolphin as options in the DC Explorer Club can be advantageous for both MVW and Disney if done correctly.  I understand what everyone is saying here and maybe it won't ever happen, but I hope that MVW puts a whole lot of effort into trying to make it happen.  There are many MVW owners who have been drooling for a Marriott connection within the WDW footprint, and many of them will happily attend DVC sales presentations in order to compare the two companies and buy in to get all the extras that Disney offers at that location.  Win-win all around, in my opinion.


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## Saintsfanfl (Mar 31, 2017)

rthib said:


> Actually they can control it. Any changes to the structure (inside or out) have to be approved by Disney, that is part of the lease agreement.
> So Disney would have to approve the conversion. Since Disney is the process of expand the number of hotel rooms they are offering by constructing a new tower, I do not think they would allow it.
> Also, DVC is also building out new or recent on site properties (Polynesian and Wilderness lodge are the latest) also don't see them want to offer competition to those units.



Have you read the lease? I have a hard time believing they can deny improvements or mods based on room size or so called "competition". This thread is conjecture on complete silliness started by a timeshare salesperson. I'm done.


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## suzannesimon (Apr 1, 2017)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Have you read the lease? I have a hard time believing they can deny improvements or mods based on room size or so called "competition". This thread is conjecture on complete silliness started by a timeshare salesperson. I'm done.



This is the latest sales technique they are using.  We attended a presentation last Sept and the salesman kept talking about all the properties that would available with points now that Marriott and Starwood are merging.  I listened for about an hour to this tale and then pointed out that Starwood sold their timeshares and it is now Vistana and Marriott spun off their timeshares to a separate company so there was no way I could trade my Marriott for a Vistana or use Destination points.  He then back pedaled to say he was talking Reward points.  He was clearly trying to  sleaze his way into a sale and got caught.  I'm sure it is a successful technique for new prospects not familiar with how the system really works.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 1, 2017)

suzannesimon said:


> This is the latest sales technique they are using.  We attended a presentation last Sept and the salesman kept talking about all the properties that would available with points now that Marriott and Starwood are merging.  I listened for about an hour to this tale and then pointed out that Starwood sold their timeshares and it is now Vistana and Marriott spun off their timeshares to a separate company so there was no way I could trade my Marriott for a Vistana or use Destination points.  He then back pedaled to say he was talking Reward points.  He was clearly trying to  sleaze his way into a sale and got caught.  I'm sure it is a successful technique for new prospects not familiar with how the system really works.



But there is some truth in it if you consider the relationship that MVW has with Marriott, Int'l, specifically how MVW is contracting with owners at some MI hotels to purchase refurbed hotel inventory, rebrand it as MVW-Pulse and convey it to the DC Trust.  Eventually I expect the same machinations to start happening at the formerly-Starwood-branded hotels that have come under the Marriott, Int'l umbrella due to MI's acquisition of Starwood.  In addition, where the refurb-and-convey machinations don't happen, formerly-Starwood hotel inventory can eventually become available using DC Points via the Explorer Collection in the same way that some MI hotels are now available.  The DC was developed with exactly this sort of flexibility and symbiotic relationships in mind, and so far MVW is proving that they want to make good on delivering what they'd been forecasting for years.

I think it's wrong to summarily dismiss the sales reps when they talk about future developments similar to the existing Pulse-branded properties or when they tout the benefits of access to Marriott and formerly-Starwood hotel properties using DC Points, and I think that some of the dismissals/confusion/disbelief comes from MVC owners and some sales reps not completely understanding the relationships or developments between the timeshare and hotel companies.  It's one thing if they come right out and say that MI's acquisition of Starwood means MVW owners have direct access to Vistana (formerly Starwood) timeshares.  Of course that's completely wrong but is that clearly what they're saying?  In some cases it's the Marriott owners sitting in the sales presentation who think the reps are referencing Vistana properties when actually the reps are talking about the formerly-Starwood hotels - if all anybody ever says is "Starwood" then the discussion is ripe for confusion.

Of course as seen in this thread it takes a bit of thinking to figure out when/under what circumstances any of these machinations might not make any sense, a good example being how Marriott-timeshare-related activity at the Swan and Dolphin hotels would pose competition for Disney.  But I think unique situations such as that one are few and far between, and think that there are far more than fewer formerly-Starwood hotel properties that can and will eventually be integrated into MVW's plans either Pulse-refurbed/rebranded or as Explorer Collection options.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 1, 2017)

SueDonJ said:


> Eventually I expect the same machinations to start happening at the formerly-Starwood-branded hotels that have come under the Marriott, Int'l umbrella due to MI's acquisition of Starwood. In addition, where the refurb-and-convey machinations don't happen, formerly-Starwood hotel inventory can eventually become available using DC Points via the Explorer Collection in the same way that some MI hotels are now available.


I don't think we will ever see a MVC property, Pulse or otherwise at a former Starwood branded property. At least not a Westin or a Sheraton. That would fly in the face of the exclusive agreement that ILG had with Starwood and the agreement that lives on now that Marriott International bought Starwood.

About the sales reps. In the end, they find out about new properties at the same time we do. They don't really have any inside knowledge of what properties Marriott is looking to buy or develop until we do. Everything with a publicly traded company means that there is full disclosure in SEC filings. Reps really can't be disclosing anything unless it has already been disclosed publicly. That means that they simply don't tell the sales reps any confirmed details until they tell everyone else. Just like at the company I work for, we didn't know they bought another company until they disclosed it in a press release. Same when we were bought by another company. Low level employees don't learn of big announcements until it is put to the public. To many issues with insider trading.


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## suzannesimon (Apr 1, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think we will ever see a MVC property, Pulse or otherwise at a former Starwood branded property. At least not a Westin or a Sheraton. That would fly in the face of the exclusive agreement that ILG had with Starwood and the agreement that lives on now that Marriott International bought Starwood.
> 
> About the sales reps. In the end, they find out about new properties at the same time we do. They don't really have any inside knowledge of what properties Marriott is looking to buy or develop until we do. Everything with a publicly traded company means that there is full disclosure in SEC filings. Reps really can't be disclosing anything unless it has already been disclosed publicly. That means that they simply don't tell the sales reps any confirmed details until they tell everyone else. Just like at the company I work for, we didn't know they bought another company until they disclosed it in a press release. Same when we were bought by another company. Low level employees don't learn of big announcements until it is put to the public. To many issues with insider trading.



My impression with the sales rep was that he was talking about the Starwood-Marriott merger in the hope that we didn't know the details and hoping we would misunderstand.  He talked about it non-stop for an hour and at no point did he differentiate between the hotels and the timeshares.  Aside from knowing about the merger on TUG, I also own 4 Vistana weeks.  I was pretty sure I knew what he was attempting to do.  I have heard several people on Facebook, for instance, happy that they can now have access to Harborside with their DC points.  I don't know if they misunderstood on their own or misunderstood as the result of a sales presentation.


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## bizaro86 (Apr 1, 2017)

ILG has a contractual exclusive right to timeshares in Sheraton and Westinghouse branded properties. If MVW wanted to put rooms in one of those hotels into the DC trust, they'd have to get permission from Vistana/ILG, which I think is very unlikely.

Maybe if they bought the whole hotel they could rebrand it to a Legacy Marriott brand, but that was possible before, and could be done with a Hilton/Hyatt/intercontinental etc as well


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## SueDonJ (Apr 1, 2017)

suzannesimon said:


> My impression with the sales rep was that he was talking about the Starwood-Marriott merger in the hope that we didn't know the details and hoping we would misunderstand.  He talked about it non-stop for an hour and at no point did he differentiate between the hotels and the timeshares.  Aside from knowing about the merger on TUG, I also own 4 Vistana weeks.  I was pretty sure I knew what he was attempting to do.  I have heard several people on Facebook, for instance, happy that they can now have access to Harborside with their DC points.  I don't know if they misunderstood on their own or misunderstood as the result of a sales presentation.



I know you're referencing the Vistana timeshares when you say Harborside but there has been confusion with the properties in that footprint ever since Marriott, Int'l introduced Atlantis as a newcomer to their Autograph Collection back in 2014.  Again, if the MVW sales reps are being that specific and saying that DC Membership gets access to Vistana timeshares, they're completely wrong.  I wonder, though, if some of the confusion isn't due to sales reps' specificity but rather misunderstanding on the part of those attending sales presentations.

Did you stop your sales rep at any point and explain that as an owner of Marriott and Vistana timeshares you understand the ownership/acquisition nuances of Marriott and Starwood timeshare and hotel properties?  And that you know for certain that Vistana timeshares are completely out of the DC Points sphere?  I don't go to timeshare presentations but if I did and I suspected that they were trying to get one over on me I'd speak up so that we'd both be clear on the details, and so that my time and theirs wouldn't be wasted.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 1, 2017)

bizaro86 said:


> ILG has a contractual exclusive right to timeshares in Sheraton and *Westinghouse *branded properties. If MVW wanted to put rooms in one of those hotels into the DC trust, they'd have to get permission from Vistana/ILG, which I think is very unlikely


I sure hope Vistana/ILG isn't going to try to remodel any nuclear energy sites in to timeshare  I suspect an auto-correct mistake there.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 1, 2017)

bizaro86 said:


> ILG has a contractual exclusive right to timeshares in Sheraton and Westinghouse branded properties. If MVW wanted to put rooms in one of those hotels into the DC trust, they'd have to get permission from Vistana/ILG, which I think is very unlikely.
> 
> Maybe if they bought the whole hotel they could rebrand it to a Legacy Marriott brand, but that was possible before, and could be done with a Hilton/Hyatt/intercontinental etc as well





dioxide45 said:


> I don't think we will ever see a MVC property, Pulse or otherwise at a former Starwood branded property. At least not a Westin or a Sheraton. That would fly in the face of the exclusive agreement that ILG had with Starwood and the agreement that lives on now that Marriott International bought Starwood. ...



I'm not talking about any of the formerly-Starwood/Westin-now-Vistana timeshares.  I'm talking about formerly-HOT (Starwood) hotel properties that are now under the Marriott, Int'l umbrella.  What exclusive agreement exists between ILG and formerly-HOT hotel properties that would be an impediment to MVW doing with those properties (via contractual agreements between MI and MVW and/or between MVW and the hotel property owners) what they've been doing with some original MI hotel properties?



dioxide45 said:


> About the sales reps. In the end, they find out about new properties at the same time we do. They don't really have any inside knowledge of what properties Marriott is looking to buy or develop until we do. Everything with a publicly traded company means that there is full disclosure in SEC filings. Reps really can't be disclosing anything unless it has already been disclosed publicly. That means that they simply don't tell the sales reps any confirmed details until they tell everyone else. Just like at the company I work for, we didn't know they bought another company until they disclosed it in a press release. Same when we were bought by another company. Low level employees don't learn of big announcements until it is put to the public. To many issues with insider trading.



I agree, until there are SEC filings that mention specific future developments, the sales reps aren't in a position to know any more than we do.  But they do know as much as we do insofar as MVW's trending activity, and it's not wrong for us or them to say that hotel inventory has been and can continue to be refurbed/rebranded as MVC Pulse and/or added to the DC Explorer Collection, resulting in inventory available for DC Points bookings.  That's why I said I wouldn't "summarily" dismiss everything the sales reps have to say, as long as they stick to the truth about trends, make clear when they're talking in the abstract, and don't outright mention or allude to specifics which can't be known.


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## rthib (Apr 1, 2017)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Have you read the lease? I have a hard time believing they can deny improvements or mods based on room size or so called "competition". This thread is conjecture on complete silliness started by a timeshare salesperson. I'm done.



The lease terms were made public during the flurry of lawsuits during construction. Lots of drama when it was being built. Pretty easy to find them, just takes some digging.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 1, 2017)

SueDonJ said:


> I'm not talking about any of the formerly-Starwood/Westin-now-Vistana timeshares. I'm talking about formerly-HOT (Starwood) hotel properties that are now under the Marriott, Int'l umbrella. What exclusive agreement exists between ILG and formerly-HOT hotel properties that would be an impediment to MVW doing with those properties (via contractual agreements between MI and MVW) what they've been doing with some original MI hotel properties?


I suppose it is possible, but highly unlikely or unusual that a Sheraton or Westin owner would be allowed to sell a portion of their property to then be branded as a Marriott timeshare property. ILG has exclusive rights to the Westin and Sheraton brand names. It would cause a lot of confusion in the marketplace if a Marriott timeshare was in the same structure as a Westin or Sheraton branded hotel. I think ILG would challenge such an arrangement.

_ETA: I guess it could be turned around too. If what you are saying could or would be done. There would be nothing stopping Vistana from buying several floors of a Marriott hotel and setting up timeshare shop there? I don't think that would sit well with MVW management since they have exclusive rights to the Marriott name to market timeshares._


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## bizaro86 (Apr 1, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> I suppose it is possible, but highly unlikely or unusual that a Sheraton or Westin owner would be allowed to sell a portion of their property to then be branded as a Marriott timeshare property. ILG has exclusive rights to the Westin and Sheraton brand names. It would cause a lot of confusion in the marketplace if a Marriott timeshare was in the same structure as a Westin or Sheraton branded hotel. I think ILG would challenge such an arrangement.



My interpretation of the ILG agreement (I own ILG shares and have read all their filings, although I am not a lawyer) is that the entire hotel would have to be rebranded. IE if the owners of the Sheraton Garden Grove by Disneyland sold the hotel to MVW, MVW would have to have the hotel rebranded to the Marriott Garden Grove (or whatever), and then they could include some of the rooms into Pulse. 

PS - That was of course an autocorrect mistake. My phone is easily the most convenient way to read and post, but man I hate that "feature"


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## Saintsfanfl (Apr 2, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> I sure hope Vistana/ILG isn't going to try to remodel any nuclear energy sites in to timeshare  I suspect an auto-correct mistake there.



I don't know. Westinghouse just filed bankruptcy a couple days ago. Some are saying it is the end of nuclear energy in the US. Those sites might need to be repurposed or redeveloped.


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## suzannesimon (Apr 2, 2017)

SueDonJ said:


> I know you're referencing the Vistana timeshares when you say Harborside but there has been confusion with the properties in that footprint ever since Marriott, Int'l introduced Atlantis as a newcomer to their Autograph Collection back in 2014.  Again, if the MVW sales reps are being that specific and saying that DC Membership gets access to Vistana timeshares, they're completely wrong.  I wonder, though, if some of the confusion isn't due to sales reps' specificity but rather misunderstanding on the part of those attending sales presentations.
> 
> Did you stop your sales rep at any point and explain that as an owner of Marriott and Vistana timeshares you understand the ownership/acquisition nuances of Marriott and Starwood timeshare and hotel properties?  And that you know for certain that Vistana timeshares are completely out of the DC Points sphere?  I don't go to timeshare presentations but if I did and I suspected that they were trying to get one over on me I'd speak up so that we'd both be clear on the details, and so that my time and theirs wouldn't be wasted.



Yes I did tell him but I was initially just being quiet so as to not prolong the presentation and get our $350.  I was also listening intently to see if he was going to outright lie about it which he never did.  He just kept referring to all the Starwood properties available to us after the merger.  I believe a non-owner would have believed he was talking about timeshares and I think that was his hope as well.


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## JIMinNC (Apr 2, 2017)

bizaro86 said:


> My interpretation of the ILG agreement (I own ILG shares and have read all their filings, although I am not a lawyer) is that the entire hotel would have to be rebranded. IE if the owners of the Sheraton Garden Grove by Disneyland sold the hotel to MVW, MVW would have to have the hotel rebranded to the Marriott Garden Grove (or whatever), and then they could include some of the rooms into Pulse.



I haven't read the agreements, but here is something that was reported in the media about the agreement:



> The deal with Vistana, which currently manages 22 vacation ownership resorts, will give ILG exclusive rights to use the Sheraton and Westin brands in vacation ownership, and will also give Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club owners continued access to Starwood’s preferred guest program, the companies said.



I interpret this as meaning that MVW cannot open a Westin or Sheraton branded timeshare, not that they can't open a Marriott Vacation Club-branded timeshare on the same property as a Westin hotel.

Using your Sheraton Garden Grove example, if MVW were to use the same model they used at The Mayflower, Autograph Collection in Washington, D.C, I'm not sure if the ILG agreements would prohibit them from buying a floor of the Sheraton and using that floor as a *Marriott Vacation Club branded* property. I would agree that might be confusing to people because of the lack of general knowledge that Westin/Sheraton timeshares are now totally separate legal entities from Sheraton and Westin branded hotels, but I'm not 100% sure a Mayflower-type transaction would be prohibited by the exclusivity agreements. MVW management addressed the exclusivity issue in response to a question in one of their earnings conference calls a couple quarters ago, but I don't recall the details of that and haven't had time to search for the text from that call.


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## BigMac (Apr 2, 2017)

When Starwood merged it's Vistana properties with ILG, Starwood shareholders got 55% of the combined company and 3 Directors. Marriott International buys out Starwood so does that mean that MI is the majority shareholder of ILG?


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## dioxide45 (Apr 2, 2017)

BigMac said:


> When Starwood merged it's Vistana properties with ILG, Starwood shareholders got 55% of the combined company and 3 Directors. Marriott International buys out Starwood so does that mean that MI is the majority shareholder of ILG?


It was Starwood shareholders that got 55% ownership of ILG, not Starwood the company. Shareholders are mainly individuals and large institutional investors. Marriott as a company didn't really get any ownership in ILG.


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## bazzap (Apr 2, 2017)

BigMac said:


> When Starwood merged it's Vistana properties with ILG, Starwood shareholders got 55% of the combined company and 3 Directors. Marriott International buys out Starwood so does that mean that MI is the majority shareholder of ILG?


Er, no!


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## SueDonJ (Apr 2, 2017)

My understanding is the same as JimInNC's, that ILG bought the rights to Westin and Sheraton branding for only the formerly-Sheraton timeshare properties (that ILG acquired after they were spun off of Sheraton and renamed Vistana.)  ILG wasn't involved at all with the hotel properties that formerly came under the Sheraton umbrella (HOT) so why would they have any say in what Marriott, Int'l chooses to do with them following MI's acquisition of HOT?  The owners of those properties now have contractual agreements with MI, not with ILG

I haven't read through the threads relating to all those transactions for a while now but didn't MI state in several of their SEC filings prior to and after the HOT acquisition that eventually they would be consolidating branding among the two hotel companies, phasing out some and expanding others?  I fully expect that when the process is completed there will be MI branding all over the formerly-HOT hotel properties, regardless of whether they keep the Sheraton, Westin, Four Points, W, St. Regis ... names or not.   And I fully expect that eventually MVW will be contracting with MI to get DC Points access to formerly-HOT properties, in any of the same ways that MVW now contracts with MI for access at Marriott-branded hotel properties.

What started this thread, the question of Marriott timeshare members access to the Swan and Dolphin properties at Disney, is a different story that I now understand because there probably are continuing non-compete contractual obligations due to those two properties' unique Disney situation.  But even with those I want MVW to try their hardest to get something for us.  Hopefully it's a possibility.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 2, 2017)

BigMac said:


> When Starwood merged it's Vistana properties with ILG, Starwood shareholders got 55% of the combined company and 3 Directors. Marriott International buys out Starwood so does that mean that MI is the majority shareholder of ILG?



The timeline was:
- Marriott, Int'l spun off its timeshare division to a separate company, Marriott Vacations Worldwide, which still stands alone as a company but has continued the Marriott Rewards connection with MI, and, has entered into agreements with MI for various timeshare owners/members access to the MI hotel properties.  One version of that access is via MVW purchasing space in Marriott-branded hotels from the hotel owners and refurbing/rebranding it to MVC-Pulse then conveying it to the Destination Club Trust.

- Starwood spun off its timeshare division to a separate company, Vistana Signature Experiences, also continuing the Starwood Preferred Guest connection for those timeshare owners/members.

- VSE was acquired by ILG, again continuing the SPG connection.

- Starwood Hotels (HOT) was acquired by MI.  All of the Marriott and Sheraton branding is continuing but they've given notice that there will be eventual changes.  The MR and SPG programs are also continuing but they've extended membership in each to the other with some Elite level recognitions crossing over, and they now offer the ability to move rewards points from one to the other.  They've given notice that eventually both programs will be consolidating, sometime late 2018 or early 2019, but no details have been released yet.

Off the top of my head I don't know how the stock ownership or Executive Leadership of each company changed with each transaction, but I'm sure of how the timeshare and hotel companies are situated now that the transactions are complete.  The only connection between Marriott, Int'l hotel company and the Vistana timeshare company or its parent ILG is the SPG program, and that's because the Vistana timeshare owners/members may be members of SPG which now comes under the MI umbrella with MR.  There is no connection between the Vistana timeshares and the Marriott Vacations Worldwide timeshares.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 2, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> I suppose it is possible, but highly unlikely or unusual that a Sheraton or Westin owner would be allowed to sell a portion of their property to then be branded as a Marriott timeshare property. ILG has exclusive rights to the Westin and Sheraton brand names. It would cause a lot of confusion in the marketplace if a Marriott timeshare was in the same structure as a Westin or Sheraton branded hotel. I think ILG would challenge such an arrangement.
> 
> _ETA: I guess it could be turned around too. If what you are saying could or would be done. There would be nothing stopping Vistana from buying several floors of a Marriott hotel and setting up timeshare shop there? I don't think that would sit well with MVW management since they have exclusive rights to the Marriott name to market timeshares._



But could it be turned around?  I expect the owners of Marriott-branded/managed hotels to have contractual connections to Marriott, Int'l that would prevent them from selling/leasing space to a competitor.  I don't see how or why the owners of Starwood-branded/Marriott-managed hotels would have any contractual connection to ILG, which I think has the rights to Starwood-branding only for the Vistana timeshares.  So if its parent company ILG doesn't have a connection to MI, what leverage would Vistana have to set up shop in an MI property?

If you think about it the DC Exchange Company is already set up to be a quasi II or RCI so eventually MVW could be running a company in which MVW, Vistana and any other timeshares could be internally exchanged.  But that's different than MI allowing  Vistana/ILG to purchase/lease space in MI hotels.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 2, 2017)

SueDonJ said:


> But could it be turned around?  I expect the owners of Marriott-branded/managed hotels to have contractual connections to Marriott, Int'l that would prevent them from selling/leasing space to a competitor.  I don't see how or why the owners of Starwood-branded/Marriott-managed hotels would have any contractual connection to ILG, which has the rights to Starwood-branding only for the Vistana timeshares?


Aren't both Vistana and MVW both competitors in this arrangement? MVW is a separate company just like ILG. Why would a Marriott managed hotel be able to contract with MVW and not with ILG? The only difference is that ILG/VSE doesn't have Sheraton or Westin in their names. For all other purposes, they are all separate and independent companies. I would expect at some time we will see them all renting out nights at some point on Marriott Internationals reservation platform.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 2, 2017)

Also, I think it would be very hard to have a MVC property on site with a Westin or Sheraton hotel and not somehow use the Sheraton or Westin names in the marketing. I am not saying any of what is being discussed is not possible, I just don't think it is very probable. I would think any such cross branding between MVW and a Westin/Sheraton property or VSE and a Marriott property would meet quick legal challenge.

I guess another thing to consider. What happens if one of the mixed use properties ends up re-branding. Say the Mayflower. It is currently an Autograph Collection. Really just an independent hotel that has a franchise agreement with Marriott International. What if it decided to change flags and become a Westin or Sheraton. I would suspect Marriott International would never let them reflag to either the Westin or Sheraton brands.


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## BigMac (Apr 2, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> It was Starwood shareholders that got 55% ownership of ILG, not Starwood the company. Shareholders are mainly individuals and large institutional investors. Marriott as a company didn't really get any ownership in ILG.


They got 3 directors that were Starwood employees - now presumably Marriott Employees.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 2, 2017)

BigMac said:


> They got 3 directors that were Starwood employees - now presumably Marriott Employees.



Which company got 3 Starwood directors, Vistana when the Starwood timeshares were spun off, or Marriott, Int'l when they acquired the Starwood hotels?  If they went to Vistana and if ILG kept them on when ILG acquired Vistana, then they're now Vistana execs.  If they went to Marriott, Int'l when MI acquired the Starwood hotel business and MI kept them on, they're now MI execs.  But there wasn't any transacting between ILG and MI, so there aren't any formerly-Starwood timeshare execs that are now with MI or MVW as a result of any of these transactions.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 2, 2017)

Not sure about the answer to your question about what BigMac mentioned, but looking at this page, there are currently 13 board members at ILG. Four of them were previously board members for Starwood. I am not sure how much the whole board makeup matters. Overall, board members serve on several boards and are often executives at other large corporations.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 2, 2017)

Okay, found this on the Marriott press release regarding the completion of the merger.



> Effective today, Marriott’s Board of Directors has increased from 11 to 14 members, with the addition of Bruce Duncan, Chairman, President and CEO of First Industrial Realty Trust, Inc., Eric Hippeau, Partner, Lerer Hippeau Ventures; and Aylwin Lewis, Chairman and CEO of Potbelly Corporation. Messrs. *Hippeau and Lewis are also former Starwood board members*. Full biographies on each of the three new Board members are available at www.Marriott.com/investor.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 2, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> Aren't both Vistana and MVW both competitors in this arrangement? MVW is a separate company just like ILG. Why would a Marriott managed hotel be able to contract with MVW and not with ILG? The only difference is that ILG/VSE doesn't have Sheraton or Westin in their names. For all other purposes, they are all separate and independent companies. I would expect at some time we will see them all renting out nights at some point on Marriott Internationals reservation platform.



What I'm thinking is that MI is allowing through a contractual arrangement with MVW for its franchisees (hotel owners) to make deals with MVW.  Yes, I agree that MI could allow the same with Vistana.  But if they don't want non-Marriott branded timeshares to be affiliated with hotels that carry their brands, I think MI has that say-so.  I expect that eventually formerly-HOT hotel properties will be available via MI's reservation platform just like MI hotels and MVW timeshares are now, but I still am not understanding how/why Vistana timeshares would get there?  (Unless something like what I added to my post #45 happens, making the DC Exchange Company a platform for Vistana?)



dioxide45 said:


> Also, I think it would be very hard to have a MVC property on site with a Westin or Sheraton hotel and not somehow use the Sheraton or Westin names in the marketing. I am not saying any of what is being discussed is not possible, I just don't think it is very probable. I would think any such cross branding between MVW and a Westin/Sheraton property or VSE and a Marriott property would meet quick legal challenge.
> 
> I guess another thing to consider. What happens if one of the mixed use properties ends up re-branding. Say the Mayflower. It is currently an Autograph Collection. Really just an independent hotel that has a franchise agreement with Marriott International. What if it decided to change flags and become a Westin or Sheraton. I would suspect Marriott International would never let them reflag to either the Westin or Sheraton brands.



I'm getting so confused, I think.  MI now owns the Westin and Sheraton hotel brands, don't they?  So they get final say over which properties have the right to re-brand to any of the brands under their umbrella, don't they?

If MI allows MVW to do MVC-Pulse or Explorer Collection inventory at any of the Starwood brand hotels, where would the legal challenge come from considering that MI owns those brands?

Look at this default marriott.com page.  If the link loads correctly you'll see brand buttons for all Marriott- and Starwood-branded properties (except the Sheraton- and Westin-branded timeshares which are now Vistana/ILG) in between the phrases "Inspiration Times 30" and "Experience Our Unparalleled Collection of Brands."  Below that there's a graphic that has the MI logo above all 30 brand logos, illustrating very well the concept of MI being the umbrella covering of all brands.  That's what I'm expecting to see at all of the properties eventually, including any that keep any of the Starwood brands.  So any MVC-Pulse branding at the properties, while in conflict with any retained Sheraton branding, would still come under the umbrella brand that will probably be prominent.  I think?


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## dioxide45 (Apr 2, 2017)

SueDonJ said:


> If MI allows MVW to do MVC-Pulse or Explorer Collection inventory at any of the Starwood brand hotels, where would the legal challenge come from considering that MI owns those brands?


I think this is where the agreement between Marriott International and Vistana Signature Experiences comes in. A similar agreement of that between MI and VAC.

There would really be nothing on either side preventing one company from wholly acquiring a property from a property owner that was previously branded as Starwood or Marriott and converting that to timeshare. Vistana is currently doing so with four properties; The Westin Cancun Resort & Spa, The Westin Los Cabos Resort Villas & Spa, The Westin Resort & Spa, Puerto Vallarta and The Sheraton Kauai. These four resorts all still carry their respective brands and all but Los Cobos can be booked on SPG.com.

Once the reservation systems are merged, I would expect any property carrying a Marriott International brand to be available to book on what will be Marriott.com. That would go for Westin hotels and their affiliated timeshare properties. Same for the Sheraton properties. Sheraton and Westin timeshares should be able to be booked with cash on Marriott.com if such cash stays are available. Of course, ILG may use other outlets like getaways to rent stays or develop their own internal reservation system for nightly stays. Though the same could happen at VAC.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 2, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> I think this is where the agreement between Marriott International and Vistana Signature Experiences comes in. A similar agreement of that between MI and VAC.
> 
> There would really be nothing on either side preventing one company from wholly acquiring a property from a property owner that was previously branded as Starwood or Marriott and converting that to timeshare. Vistana is currently doing so with four properties; The Westin Cancun Resort & Spa, The Westin Los Cabos Resort Villas & Spa, The Westin Resort & Spa, Puerto Vallarta and The Sheraton Kauai. These four resorts all still carry their respective brands and all but Los Cobos can be booked on SPG.com.
> 
> Once the reservation systems are merged, I would expect any property carrying a Marriott International brand to be available to book on what will be Marriott.com. That would go for Westin hotels and their affiliated timeshare properties. Same for the Sheraton properties. Sheraton and Westin timeshares should be able to be booked with cash on Marriott.com if such cash stays are available. Of course, ILG may use other outlets like getaways to rent stays or develop their own internal reservation system for nightly stays. Though the same could happen at VAC.



I think we're pretty much on the same page except for one thing, and that might be a matter of me misunderstanding what you're saying.  Is this assuming that MI and VSE will eventually come to an agreement similar to the one between MI and MVW?  Because everything you're saying makes sense based on that assumption, but if it doesn't come to fruition then I don't understand how the bit about VSE (Sheraton and Westin) timeshare intervals being available on marriott.com would work?


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## dioxide45 (Apr 2, 2017)

SueDonJ said:


> I think we're pretty much on the same page except for one thing, and that might be a matter of me misunderstanding what you're saying.  Is this assuming that MI and VSE will eventually come to an agreement similar to the one between MI and MVW?  Because everything you're saying makes sense based on that assumption, but if it doesn't come to fruition then I don't understand how the bit about VSE (Sheraton and Westin) timeshare intervals being available on marriott.com would work?


I think that is where you may be misunderstanding. There is no agreement for MI and VSE to come to, because the agreement already exists. Both VSE and MI became party to the agreement that was previously made internally at Stawood that went in to effect at the time of the spinoff of VSE from Starwood. At that time there was then an agreement between VSE and Starwood regarding the affiliation and licensing of the Sheraton and Westin names to be used for timeshare marketing and VSE properties. That agreement was then acquired by Marriott International when MI acquired Starwood. VSE currently has licensing rights to use the Westin and Sheraton names for timeshare properties (and even some hotel properties). Those licensing rights would also include access to such loyalty program that is affiliated with the brands. Perhaps those more familiar with the agreement can provide more details. VSE is paying a heavy royalty and licencing fee to MI for the ability to use the two brand names just like MVW is paying to MI.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 2, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> I think that is where you may be misunderstanding. There is no agreement for MI and VSE to come to, because the agreement already exists. Both VSE and MI became party to the agreement that was previously made internally at Stawood that went in to effect at the time of the spinoff of VSE from Starwood. At that time there was then an agreement between VSE and Starwood regarding the affiliation and licensing of the Sheraton and Westin names to be used for timeshare marketing and VSE properties. That agreement was then acquired by Marriott International when MI acquired Starwood. VSE currently has licensing rights to use the Westin and Sheraton names for timeshare properties (and even some hotel properties). Those licensing rights would also include access to such loyalty program that is affiliated with the brands. Perhaps those more familiar with the agreement can provide more details. VSE is paying a heavy royalty and licencing fee to MI for the ability to use the two brand names just like MVW is paying to MI.



Hmmmm.  I understand that VSE retained the naming rights for Sheraton-branded timeshares when that division was spun off and renamed, and that those rights continued after ILG acquired VSE.  I also understand that when MI acquired the Sheraton hotel business it was with the understanding that the acquisition was conditional on those VSE/ILG rights continuing as is.  On that we understand each other, as well as with the ramifications for the two loyalty programs.

But when it comes to the two timeshare companies and whatever access there is to them via MI, I think there is a separate agreement between MI and MVW that covers all of the affiliated reservation rights, MVC-Pulse considerations, DC Explorer Club opportunities, etc, that's been in effect since MVW was spun off from MI which was then amended/expanded/extended when the DC was established.  Are you saying that in addition to the naming rights contractual agreement that is continuing between VSE/ILG and MI, there is also another agreement similar to the one I think exists between MI and MVW that would allow VSE timeshares to integrate as seamlessly with MI as the MVW timeshares do now?  Obviously that's a new thought process for me.


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## bizaro86 (Apr 2, 2017)

Some of the terms of the agreement between Starwood (now MI) and VSE (now ILG) were redacted. So although we don't know what they pay for a star point,  we know their agreement to buy star point specifically contemplated the merger or replacement of the star points program

VSE will have the right to give out MRP after the programs merge, and will still have exclusive rights to use the Westin and Sheraton names for timeshare marketing. 

MVW can't buy those rights from MI, because MI doesn't own them.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 2, 2017)

SueDonJ said:


> Look at this default marriott.com page. If the link loads correctly you'll see brand buttons for all Marriott- and Starwood-branded properties (except the Sheraton- and Westin-branded timeshares which are now Vistana/ILG) in between the phrases "Inspiration Times 30" and "Experience Our Unparalleled Collection of Brands."


I checked this out. While Vistana Signature Experiences is not a brand within MI. Westin and Sheraton certainly are. Vistana markets these properties under the Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club, but all those properties still carry the Westin and Sheraton names. Those brands are included in the list of brands under the MI umbrella.



SueDonJ said:


> But when it comes to the two timeshare companies and whatever access there is to them via MI, I think there is a separate agreement between MI and MVW that covers all of the affiliated reservation rights, MVC-Pulse considerations, DC Explorer Club opportunities, etc, that's been in effect since MVW was spun off from MI which was then amended/expanded/extended when the DC was established. Are you saying that in addition to the naming rights contractual agreement that is continuing between VSE/ILG and MI, there is also another agreement similar to the one I think exists between MI and MVW that would allow VSE timeshares to integrate as seamlessly with MI as the MVW timeshares do now? Obviously that's a new thought process for me.


I don't think there is any such separate agreement outside of the license agreement that was written when MAR spun-off VAC. DC came about before the spin-off, so there was no amendment to be made to the agreement when DC came about. MVC-Pulse is not a brand within MI, at least not listed on the page linked above. Pulse is strictly a brand that Marriott Vacation Club is using to market their city locations. Pulse is different from Explorer. Pulse are properties that VAC actually bought to sell DC points from the inventory. Explorer is just an agreement between the property owner and MVW. I don't think there is any agreement between MVW and MAR that pertains to Explorer Collection options. Those are individual agreements made between MVW and each individual property owner to offer nights to MVC owners using DC points. When a DC owner uses points for an Explorer Collection stay, MVW pays the property owner in cash for the stay and then monetizes the DC points my renting out other available inventory. If the agreement was between MVW and MI for Explorer options, we would see a much bigger program where X number of DC pionts is worth X $ to use toward a hotel stay at any Marriott branded property. That isn't the case. As MVW comes to new agreements with individual property owners, they add the option to the Explorer Collection. I don't think MAR really has much of a say.

Here is the proxy statement relating to the VSE spinoff from HOT. I don't have the time to read thoruhg it all, but there may be some details in there that relate to the agreement between HOT and VSE/ILG that is now between MI and ILG/VSE.


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