# Speaking of II Tiger Traders...



## akbmusic (Feb 2, 2007)

I have been curious about this for awhile, so I thought I'd ask and see what happens. I think we can all agree that there are some resorts (Westin St. John, Harborside at Atlantis, Four Seasons, Marriott/Westin Hawaii resorts...) that are difficult to trade into. It would then stand to reason that they would trade "through the roof," so to speak.
  You see "off" weeks at many of these resorts that sell for considerably less than prime weeks (i.e. a late September week at Harborside sells for much less than Christmas week or a spring break week). The question is, do those weeks trade better than they should because of the high demand and low availability, or do you think you would get better trades from a nice (read that 5*) resort that's a prime week? (we could use an Orlando Marriott, for example)
  Let the discussion begin!


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## Big Matt (Feb 2, 2007)

Marriott's internal 24 day trading window is a huge advantage, and coupled with mostly high end resorts, they get lots of great trades regardless of season or demand.  

Take away the internal priority and many off season Marriotts wouldn't trade as well.

I'd love to see a trade test for a green/yellow Marriott week vs. a mediocre non-Marriott week for non-Marriott trades.


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## Judy (Feb 2, 2007)

akbmusic said:
			
		

> do you think you would get better trades from a nice (read that 5*) resort that's a prime week? (we could use an Orlando Marriott, for example)



II's trading system is based on supply and demand plus quality rating restrictions. There is a lot of demand for Orlando, but there is also a lot of supply. The 5* rating will not increase trading power except inasmuch as it might encourage II members to request that resort. What a high quality rating will do is to restrict exchanges to other highly-rated resorts. (5* does not guarantee a high quality rating)


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## PerryM (Feb 2, 2007)

*Wimpy the tiger*

I think folks are too fixated with powerful traders – in II and RCI Weeks.

It’s easy to buy a Maui Marriott or week 52 at MountainSide or a Maui Westin week 52 and spend $70,000 - $140,000 a week and this would surely be the ultimate tiger trader in II.  Now what?

Those ultimate traders are so costly that your only exchange is downward – so the owners don’t place them into II they can easily get cold hard cash renting them.  Or, they lock off their unit and exchange one and use a part of one – is that why they bought such an expensive timeshare? To live in the 1BR side?  No.

A tiger trader to me is a wimpy, cheap week that makes an exchange into something way out of its league.  Marriott is the place to look for this capability.  I really don’t want to open the flood gates, but this is where you should be spending your time and money.  WM is a close second, if not tied for first place.

P.S.
Think of it this way – if your $5,000 week exchanges into a $55,000 week is this not the definition of a Tiger Trader?  I’ve done it many times with Marriott and WM.


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 2, 2007)

Here is how I think about timeshare exchange.  What is least cost I can pay in both upfront cost and annual maintenance fees plus exchange fees to gain access to anything in the exchange company?

So, I always want to maintain a portfolio of timeshares that allows me to pick the lowest cost option for getting what I want. And, my other constraint is that I don't want to risk any lost deposits.  Lastly, my total cost including exchange fee must be lower than I can find rentals at the same resort.  If I can find a cheaper rental, I'll do that instead.  So, how do I do that?

First, to prevent myself from expiring deposits, I want something is good at request first.  WorldMark, as Perry has advocated, does a terrific job at covering most of the exchanges available.  In one ownership, I can gain access to most of II inventory.  And, in this one ownership, I only pay in credits for the size unit I need.  And, if it's less than 60 days from checkin, I get a huge discount.  So, WorldMark is my baseline II trader.  In addition, all you need is a small account and you can acquire additional credits simply by renting them.  So, you don't have to tie up capital.

Second, WorldMark isn't the cheapest trader.  It is just the most universal.  You pay for the universality with higher maintenance fees than some other traders.  So, I supplement my WorldMark with cheaper traders.  If those traders will grab a week that my WorldMark can see, I'll use that cheaper trader first.

Third, there are exchanges that WorldMark can't see.  An example is Marriott's and Starwoods in their preference periods.  So, you need to pick up one or two of those so that you can have access to that inventory.  At the moment, I'm looking for a Starwood.

Given trading restrictions such as regional blocks and preferences, there isn't one timeshare on earth that can trade for everything in II.  The question is what is the fewest you can own to access as much of it that you want or need.


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## PerryM (Feb 2, 2007)

*It's a jungle out there...*

BB has excellent points.

Our timeshare portfolio contains:
1)	WM credits
2)	Cheap Marriott weeks
3)	Timeshares we actually use each year or rent out
4)	RCI Points for airline tickets and to get super deals

I don’t know about Starwood (Westin) – I’m going to assume they have wacky rules like Marriott that favor their owners over the rest of II.

A Tiger Trader hides in waiting and your knowledge of the rules of the game makes all the difference if your Tiger will land an elephant or a mouse.  (I can’t believe I just said that, sorry)

The most leverage of your money in the timeshare world is taking advantage of the rules the exchange companies and the developers have implemented to give the smart owner a tremendous advantage over the owner who knows little.  Take advantage of all these gifts that present themselves each day in the timeshare jungle (Sorry again).


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 2, 2007)

PerryM said:


> A Tiger Trader hides in waiting and your knowledge of the rules of the game makes all the difference if your Tiger will land an elephant or a mouse.  (I can’t believe I just said that, sorry)
> 
> The most leverage of your money in the timeshare world is taking advantage of the rules the exchange companies and the developers have implemented to give the smart owner a tremendous advantage over the owner who knows little.  Take advantage of all these gifts that present themselves each day in the timeshare jungle (Sorry again).



Perry

Have you been thinking about buying into the new DVC Animal Kingdom Lodge?

There is a funny thread on www.mouseowners.com where we are discussing the new MF at ALK ($4.62pp) vs the MF at SSR ($4.12pp). I posted that it was to pay for someone to clean up all that elephant poop. Then someone else chimed in that Disney probably will offer guests a special program that they can buy-into to do this job as an exclusive behind the scenes excursion. I later posted, that I saw a Hidden Mickey in an elephant turd that last time I was there....lots of fun!


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## Bill4728 (Feb 2, 2007)

One problem with the so called Tiger Traders is the quality filter used by the exchange companies. As I pointed out in this thread  thread   there can be problems with having a really good II resort. II hides from you any resorts which their quality filter thinks isn't good enough for you and therefore you can't trade into a resort you don't know is there.


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## Floridaski (Feb 2, 2007)

We have solved this question with Hyatt points.  We purchased enough points to satisfy our Hyatt stays and to trade every other year.  I can get just about anything with 1300 points in red season.  Most of you would not believe how fast my request is filled from II.  The reason of course, is that II does not get my Hyatt points until my request is filled. 

We also have a decent trader within RCI weeks, so we have more then enough weeks/points.  It seems to work well having both II and RCI since there are spots that II has weak inventory.  We are going to Whistler in 2008 for ski season to Whiski Jack Ironwood via the RCI weeks trade.  But other then specific regions, I think Hyatt II trades with the best of the tiger traders.  The resort has to be really special for us to let go of our Hyatt points, but we have been happy with the exchanges we have gotten with II.

Hyatt points are not cheap, MF are high - but I think they are worth the money.


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 2, 2007)

Floridaski said:


> Hyatt points are not cheap, MF are high - but I think they are worth the money.



Can you post a typical resale price for a 2 bedroom prime week Hyatt and the MF for me so I can calculare the $ per night.

Here is my math comparing top-end timeshares:

Assume a 5% lost opportunity cost for all initial purchase prices. Divide this by the total nights of usage to get the lost opportunity cost per night.

Assume the annual dues divided by the nights of usage equals the annual cost per night per year.

Assume the total cost per night = lost opportunity cost per night + annual cost per night

Example:
Ski week (Marriott SummitWatch / Mountainside or Westgate Park City)
$30,000 purchase price (resale), $950 annual dues, 7 nights usage, 2 Bedroom
Cost per night = $214 + $136 = $350 per night


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## JudyS (Feb 2, 2007)

Lots of good advice on this thread!



akbmusic said:


> ...The question is, do those weeks trade better than they should because of the high demand and low availability, or do you think you would get better trades from a nice (read that 5*) resort that's a prime week? (we could use an Orlando Marriott, for example)...


I'd expect an off-season Harborside or Westin St. John or Marriott Maui to trade better than almost anything in Orlando (except possibly DVC), due to the huge oversupply of Orlando units.  However, the annual fees on Harborside or Westin St. John or Marriott Maui are sky-high, so a lower purchase price really doesn't help much to make them a good deal.

I wouldn't use ANY of the ones you suggested (Orlando Marriott, Hawaii Marriott, Harborside, Westin St. John) as II traders.  The annual fees are just too high for a trader.


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## Dean (Feb 4, 2007)

I would second what some hinted at, that is that trade value and trade power are not the same thing.  To me it's what will get me what I want for the lowest up front and yearly costs.  I actually think it's helpful to have a variety of units to chose from in terms of resort quality.  And since the chances of getting a 2 BR at the Marriott or Westin on Maui is not good even if I have the number one trader, I don't care if that is out of my reach.  Besides much of the fun is the hunt of the chase, getting something good for something less, etc.

And I'd agree that many things are too expensive no matter how their trade power.  I'd also agree that if you own a top resort during peak times, most trades are a down trade.  And I'd make one additional point, that if you trade something that is really good and get something that on the surface is a lateral exchange, it is not.  Say you trade a Platinum Grande Ocean week (OS view) for an Ocean Watch unit the same exact week.  The fact that you have a lower assignment priority means you will likely get a garden view unit and likely not one of the best GV units.  You've lost the flexibility to rent your week and likely settled for a lessor unit as well.  Thus I try to keep myself in the situation that all trades are a trade up in at least one of 3 areas, unit size, resort quality, week demand.  Most of my trades have been positive in at least 2 of the ares, many in all 3.  But I'm sure there will come a time when I'll be stuck and have to settle.


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## chemteach (Feb 4, 2007)

akbmusic said:


> I have been curious about this for awhile, so I thought I'd ask and see what happens. I think we can all agree that there are some resorts (Westin St. John, Harborside at Atlantis, Four Seasons, Marriott/Westin Hawaii resorts...) that are difficult to trade into.
> Let the discussion begin!



Another problem with any of the Starwood properties is that not only do you not get to pick the week you deposit, you also do not necessarily get to pick the property that will be deposited.  The Starwood program has a provision that if you want to deposit a week in II, they are allowed to assign you a resort that is not your own from within the system.  So you may end up with a week in your II account from a resort within the U.S. that is nowhere near as high demand as your own resort.


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## pcgirl54 (Feb 4, 2007)

All good points..I was just thinking about Starwood or Hyatt vs Marriott to get into other trades. Didn't know that about Starwood II deposits. A lot of members like Worldmark. What are the negatives about the other brands and the pluses?

Marriott still has more resorts and in locations I want to trade. Other systems just don't have as many resorts. I live on the east coast. Maybe if I lived on the west coast I would feel different.

Just saw a Four Seasons Aviara ad-1800 MF. I didn't know there was such a fee. Can't imagine why.


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## turkel (Feb 4, 2007)

Just saw a Four Seasons Aviara ad-1800 MF. I didn't know there was such a fee. Can't imagine why.[/QUOTE]

That Four Seasons MF does not include taxes  add at least another $200+


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## Judy (Feb 4, 2007)

I have to disagree with Perry and Boca Bum.  Worldmark is *not* a tiger trader.  As Bill pointed out, II and RCI have quality filters.  Because Worldmark has a high quality rating, there are a lot of II resorts that it cannot see.  I have both Celebrity Orlando and Worldmark in my II account.  Celebrity Orlando is definitely not a tiger trader, but it can almost always see more resorts than Worldmark.
Lately, I've been looking for exchanges to the Caribbean and to Jackson Wyoming.  There are only two II resorts in Jackson.  Celebrity Orlando can see both of them.  Worldmark can only see one.  In the Caribbean, I've found several units available at the  Jolly Harbour Beach Resort in Antigua using my Celebrity Orlando, but over several months of searching, I've yet to find anything on that island using Worldmark.  Those are only the two most recent examples out of many.


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## pcgirl54 (Feb 4, 2007)

turkel said:


> Just saw a Four Seasons Aviara ad-1800 MF. I didn't know there was such a fee. Can't imagine why.



That Four Seasons MF does not include taxes  add at least another $200+[/QUOTE]


Oh my,Wow!


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## PerryM (Feb 4, 2007)

*We need to identify the "Bottom Feeder" timeshare*

My definition of a Tiger Trader is simply a cheap timeshare that easily upgrades to higher quality resorts.  I don’t use the reverse definition – but that’s just me.

True, if you want to get ANY timeshare in an area I really don’t know what would be considered the “bottom of the barrel” and every other timeshare is an upgrade.  This would be at the 59-day window in II.

This is an interesting question and by my definition it would be the penultimate exchanger since EVERY timeshare would be an improvement.  

So I throw the nominations for the “Bottom Feeder” timeshare out there – which timeshare can ONLY exchange upwards in the 59-day II window?

Maybe this has already been done, I don't every remember reading about it.


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## Floridaski (Feb 4, 2007)

The best buy within the Hyatt system currently is the Beach House in Key West.  The lower price per point is not an indication of lower quailty.  But, Hyatt also has Windward Point and is trying to sell those units as developer units.  The prices I am quoting are of course resale and to the best of my knowledge they are passing ROFR at the Beach House.
1400 points Beach House - around 9000.00
2000 points Beach House - around 12,500
MF at Beach House - 2006 $857.00

With 2000 points, we can get an II, 2 bedroom 1300 point stay for ski.  For example at Grand Timber Lodge, week 11.  It is a 2 bedroom, sleeps eight and runs between $350 to $450 to rent from an owner.  Then with the remaining points we stay at another Hyatt during my sons summer break.  This is the second or third week in August.  We have been staying in one to two bedrooms for 4 to seven nights.  So we get anywhere from 11 to 14 nights from the 2000 points.  My II request listed one resort, one check-in week and was filled in an amazing 8 days.  I was limited to choices due to the fact that we had given up Hyatt points and we wanted Breckenridge.  I love the Hyatt in Breck, but we wanted to try something different.  I think one resort, one week request is VERY limited.  It got filled at one year prior to the check-in date.

Between Hyatt and our RCI week, we almost always get to go where we want.  Works for our family....


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## akbmusic (Feb 8, 2007)

> To me it's what will get me what I want for the lowest up front and yearly costs. I actually think it's helpful to have a variety of units to chose from in terms of resort quality.



*Dean-I would agree with you. That is what we are trying to figure out right now!*




> A tiger trader to me is a wimpy, cheap week that makes an exchange into something way out of its league.  Marriott is the place to look for this capability.  I really don’t want to open the flood gates, but this is where you should be spending your time and money.  WM is a close second, if not tied for first place.



*Perry-Why do you think this? (I am not trying to be argumentative! I am just trying to understand.)*




> Here is how I think about timeshare exchange. What is least cost I can pay in both upfront cost and annual maintenance fees plus exchange fees to gain access to anything in the exchange company?
> 
> So, I always want to maintain a portfolio of timeshares that allows me to pick the lowest cost option for getting what I want. And, my other constraint is that I don't want to risk any lost deposits. Lastly, my total cost including exchange fee must be lower than I can find rentals at the same resort. If I can find a cheaper rental, I'll do that instead. So, how do I do that?
> 
> ...




*Some good points for me to think about BocaBum! Thanks!*



> I'd love to see a trade test for a green/yellow Marriott week vs. a mediocre non-Marriott week for non-Marriott trades.



*Big Matt- Since we are considering a couple of Marriott resorts, I'd love to see this too!*




> My definition of a Tiger Trader is simply a cheap timeshare that easily upgrades to higher quality resorts. I don’t use the reverse definition – but that’s just me.
> 
> 
> So I throw the nominations for the “Bottom Feeder” timeshare out there – which timeshare can ONLY exchange upwards in the 59-day II window?
> ...



*I couldn't run down anything on this either. That is part of the reason I brought this up. I would love to know what some of the "bottom feeders" are too! Anyone up for starting a list/compilation of this, or running some trade tests in II (It has been awhile since that has been done)? I'd be more than happy to help compile/organize the information and make it available for everyone on my days off!*


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## PerryM (Feb 8, 2007)

*my little wimpy Tiger...*

Everyone has a different definition of beauty, or ugly.

That’s the same with a “Tiger Trader” – there are a bunch of definitions – all could be correct.

To me cost has a lot to do with a Tiger; both 1) upfront cost to buy and 2) MFs

To me, there is but one winner – WorldMark.  Here are my reasons:

1)	I don’t need to buy the timeshare needed to exchange – II will just charge me $700 (10,000 WM credits * 7¢) for the underlying timeshare.  Or I could rent the credits for 6 - 8¢ a credit from other WM owners.  I pay 4¢ in MF so II is only charging me $300 for that week - talk about a deal!

2)	I want, and normally have, 10 ongoing II exchanges – I don’t have to put up one WM credit to do this.  I’m billed $139 per on-going search but if I don’t get a match I get the money back

3)	WM is a very very powerful II trader – many don’t believe it and that’s just fine with me (I don’t want to prove it since I don’t like shooting myself in the foot)

4)	I want to lock in a WM timeshare, near my destination, and then use II to search up until 30 days before check in – I can then get my WM credits back.  I do this all the time.  WM is a II 5-star chain of resorts but I like Marriotts much better.  We go to Maui all the time – lock in a WM at either the north or south end of Maui and then always exchange into a better timeshare and get the WM credits back

5)	At 59-days I only fork over 4,000 WM credits for any II exchange – That costs me $160 + $139 = $299 to stay at some very nice Marriotts where they pay a MF of $1,000

I used to have the definition of a Tiger as a $65k Marriott then I realized that the WM got me into the same Marriott at the same time – if there is availability and I play II’s and Marriott’s game correctly - a lot has to do with what actually happens and NOT what the written rules say!


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## winger (Feb 24, 2007)

PerryM said:


> ...the WM credits back
> 
> 5)	At 59-days I only fork over 4,000 WM credits for any II exchange – That costs me $160 + $139 = $299 to stay at some very nice Marriotts ...


I know $139 is the II exchange fee, but what is the $160 (equate to 4000 cred?) ?


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## LisaH (Feb 24, 2007)

winger said:


> I know $139 is the II exchange fee, but what is the $160 (equate to 4000 cred?) ?



4000 WM credits equal to approximately $160 (4cents/credit)


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## Janis (Feb 27, 2007)

My Lawrence Welk Week 26 that I bought for $3000 has traded me into some of the best resorts out there.

I have stayed at Marriott Aruba Ocean Club, Marriott Ft. Lauderdale at XMAS, Royal Sands in Cancun over Spring Break.


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## PerryM (Feb 27, 2007)

*I vote NO!*

As much as I love Point systems, I hope II never goes down that route.

I’ve grown accustomed to buying a timeshare for 1/10 the price of the one I exchange into.

I’ve grown accustomed to paying a MF that is 1/4 the cost of the one I exchange into.

An II Point system would destroy this and I’d be reduced to getting something equal to the cheap stuff I put up to exchange.

I now understand why folks seem to hate RCI Points and I, for one, vote that II never go down that route.


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## burrski (Feb 28, 2007)

Awesome thread.  You guys are doing a great job.  I am inspired to get my feet wet.  Seems like a great challenge to figure all this out.  I would guess a lot of satisfaction comes when you trade way up and get to use a place that some fat cat would pay a bunch of money for.  I am guessing that this must also be something that a person enjoys, because it must take lots of time to play this game.


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## winger (Mar 1, 2007)

burrski said:


> Awesome thread.  You guys are doing a great job.  I am inspired to get my feet wet.  Seems like a great challenge to figure all this out.  I would guess a lot of satisfaction comes when you trade way up and get to use a place that some fat cat would pay a bunch of money for.  I am guessing that this must also be something that a person enjoys, because it must take lots of time to play this game.


One key to life (I was told many times) is to find a couple of passions/enjoyments and join related 'clubs' to share and learn.  For example, I love traveling and a couple of other things, so I signed up for TUG and a couple of other boards.  Boards are nice as we may not always have relatives or friends who share same interests. 

Yes, IT TAKES lots of time to learn anything, but it's part of being in the action and learning.  Unless you enjoy the topic being discussed, won't be wise to waste time in joining.


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