# 13 month advantage with DC points



## jimf41 (Sep 14, 2010)

I had planned to write a different thread today. What I wanted to say was how great I thought DC points were especially since I have enough weeks to convert to well over 20,000 DC points. This would let me make reservations at other than my home resort at the 13 month mark.

Unfortunately this is the thread I have to write. I called to check availability at Lakeshore Reserve and Oceana Palms for October 2011. My plan was to spend a week in a 3bdrm at Lakeshore with a Sunday checkin and then book consecutively at Oceana Palms for a 2bdrm OF for 5 days SUN-FRI. This is the off season at both resorts and I really did not anticipate much of a problem. My backup plan was to substitute Imperial Palms for Lakeshore and Ocean Pointe for Oceana Palms if necessary. 

There was no inventory showing with destination points for any of the above resorts at the 13 month mark. The rep said that DC points are a little different than reserving at your home resort in that there is more inventory at the 12 month mark than at the 13 month mark. I then asked him what was the point of being able to have a 13 month advantage if there is no inventory at 13 months. He was a little vague on this and said it's a new system and it will get better as more people learn how to use their DC points.

The next problem that I discovered is that there is no way in the DC system to allow reservation of multiple weeks at the 13 month mark even if there is inventory. In other words, if a resort did show inventory at the 13 month mark but I wanted to reserve two consecutive weeks I would have to call back the next week and hope to get the second week. The 13 month consecutive/concurrent rule does not apply to DC points.

My original premise for joining the DC program was to make my reservations, either at my home resort or another, at the 13 month mark. This would eliminate the hassle of wishing and hoping with II that your trade will come through, a process that has had limited success in my case.

It looks now that this is not going to work out as well as I planned. We'll see over the next month or so what inventory becomes available. It's not a huge deal in Florida as the airfares don't wildly increase so much as time goes by. In the Caribbean however you've really got to get your tickets at the 331 day mark or they start getting very expensive.

The only good thing I can say about this mornings experience was that I got to see what inventory was available (NONE) without having to commit to converting my weeks to DC points.


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## scrapngen (Sep 14, 2010)

Wow! I thought that points would be points and that the 13 month timeframe would let you reserve whatever number of days you wished consecutively. (i.e. if you wanted 9 days at a resort...) 

What you discovered does make sense in a way, as this is not a true points system, but an overlay. I guess it makes me feel a little more protected as a legacy weeks owner, that someone with enough points still can't just come in and grab up all the prime days...  (not meant to dis- anyone  )


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## NboroGirl (Sep 14, 2010)

Keep us posted and let us know how you make out in the coming weeks.  Although, as an enrolled legacy owner, I don't plan on converting to points very often (if ever), I still find this disappointing.


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## windje2000 (Sep 14, 2010)

scrapngen said:


> Wow! I thought that points would be points and that the 13 month timeframe would let you reserve whatever number of days you wished consecutively. (i.e. if you wanted 9 days at a resort...)
> 
> What you discovered does make sense in a way, as this is not a true points system, but an overlay. I guess it makes me feel a little more protected as a legacy weeks owner, that someone with enough points still can't just come in and grab up all the prime days...  (not meant to dis- anyone  )



It's an exchange company. . .  ostensibly denominated in points rather than weeks.  Little else.  

The overlay designed is to make it look like a points system . . . so they can sell points.


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## cbdmvci (Sep 14, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> The next problem that I discovered is that there is no way in the DC system to allow reservation of multiple weeks at the 13 month mark even if there is inventory. In other words, if a resort did show inventory at the 13 month mark but I wanted to reserve two consecutive weeks I would have to call back the next week and hope to get the second week. The 13 month consecutive/concurrent rule does not apply to DC points.



This makes no sense in the DC points-per-day scheme.  You're not reserving a second week.  Aren't you just reserving 14 days at such-and-such points-per-day at the 13 month start date?


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## jimf41 (Sep 14, 2010)

cbdmvci said:


> This makes no sense in the DC points-per-day scheme.  You're not reserving a second week.  Aren't you just reserving 14 days at such-and-such points-per-day at the 13 month start date?



In my case I was trying to get 7 days at one resort and 5 days  at another consecutively. Obviously there was no inventory so I couldn't do either. I spend 3 to 5 weeks at Frenchman's Cove every year and when I asked how that would work he told me that the 13 month consecutive/concurrent rule did not apply to DC points. I don't think it's a matter of not allowing it so much as their points availability software doesn't allow searches beyond 13 months. That's my guess anyway.

I'm going to write a letter to MVCI and tell them about my experience. I'm not so sure they are aware of this situation with 13 month availability. If anyone else has any experience , good or bad, I would hope you post it. If this situation remains then there is absolutely no need to buy extra points to get to the 6500 point level to take advantage of the 13 month reservation window.


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## winger (Sep 14, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> ...
> 
> There was no inventory showing with destination points for any of the above resorts at the 13 month mark. The rep said that DC points are a little different than reserving at your home resort in that there is more inventory at the 12 month mark than at the 13 month mark. I then asked him what was the point of being able to have a 13 month advantage if there is no inventory at 13 months. He was a little vague on this and said *it's a new system and it will get better as more people learn how to use their DC points*....


Haha, it's more like - it is a new system, and it will take *Marriott *some time to get their act together.


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## hotcoffee (Sep 14, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> In my case I was trying to get 7 days at one resort and 5 days  at another consecutively. Obviously there was no inventory so I couldn't do either. I spend 3 to 5 weeks at Frenchman's Cove every year and when I asked how that would work he told me that the 13 month consecutive/concurrent rule did not apply to DC points. I don't think it's a matter of not allowing it so much as their points availability software doesn't allow searches beyond 13 months. That's my guess anyway.
> 
> I'm going to write a letter to MVCI and tell them about my experience. I'm not so sure they are aware of this situation with 13 month availability. If anyone else has any experience , good or bad, I would hope you post it. If this situation remains then there is absolutely no need to buy extra points to get to the 6500 point level to take advantage of the 13 month reservation window.



I know there is an issue that you cannot go on a waitlist at 13 months using points.  Had there been availibility at both resorts at 13 months, I cannot imagine why they would not have given it to you at both resorts.  As far as reserving more than one week at the same resort at 13 months, that sounds strange.  I might run that one by the people I have been dealing with at Marriott to see what their opinion is on that.

I don't necessarily buy the "there is more inventory at the 12 month mark than at the 13 month mark" argument.  Inventory becomes available as people elect points for a given year.  That can happen in the previous year due to borrowing as well as the 13 month mark.  We are in a unique situation this year because the program is new, and there was no "previous year".  I think the program should improve next year.

I agree, however, that the advantage of being Premier and Premier-plus is somewhat fuzzy in the DC points program.


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## DanCali (Sep 14, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> The only good thing I can say about this mornings experience was that I got to see what inventory was available (NONE) without having to commit to converting my weeks to DC points.



I wonder how much pressure you will get at 12 months to "deposit first" and get on a waitlist...


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## jimf41 (Sep 14, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I wonder how much pressure you will get at 12 months to "deposit first" and get on a waitlist...



From what I've read in other posts the waitlist seems to work out. But that's not what I anticipated doing when I'm requesting off season weeks. I'm really concerned about is how this DC system will work when I request prime season weeks in the Caribbean. The lack of a 13 month multiple week reservation is a real wake up call also. 

For Florida I've really got another six months or so before Southwest starts selling tickets for October. I can waitlist a while or just call every few days to see if the availability improves. With the Caribbean in FEB-MAR you really only have about 30 days from the 12 month mark to play with before you have to lock in your air travel.


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## SueDonJ (Sep 14, 2010)

We had talked about some of these things already on TUG, but it's so difficult to grasp everything about this new system until you try to put it into practice!

If you are a Trust Member, meaning you purchased Points, you can access Trust and Exchange Company inventory with those Points at the 13/12/10-mo marks depending upon how many Points you own and how many days you're looking to reserve.

If you are an Exchange Member, meaning you're converting Weeks to Points, you can access Weeks and Exchange Company inventory at the 13/12/10- ... <same as above.>

If you are combining Trust and Exchange Points, you can reserve Trust inventory only up to the amount of Trust Points you own, but you can reserve available Exchange inventory up to the total amount of Points you own.

The VOA's are able to search for inventory prior to an Exchange Member making the commitment to convert Week(s) to Points.

Regardless of the type of Points you own, Waitlist requests can be made at the 12-mo mark for 7 days or more; and at the 10-mo mark for less than 7 days.  Weeks must be converted to Points in order for an Exchange Member to make a Waitlist request (similar to MVCI Owners needing to "deposit first" into II in order to get that longer exchange window and/or an AC possibility.)

The 13-mo Reservation Window in the Destination Club is not the same as the one in place for Weeks - there is no allowance for consecutive stays at different resorts.  The Inventory Release Calendar for Points use is set up to work with the check-in date; if you change resorts then naturally your check-in date will change which means each reservation must be made separately (according to the reservation windows open to you, again, depending upon the number of points owned and the number of days - for a single resort - being requested.)

All those things that have been discussed on TUG have come into play with your reservation!  But even though it seems like you might need a Marriott degree to figure it all out, think about how much you need to know - and can rattle off with almost no thought - in order to use your Week(s) in MVCI's existing system.  I don't know about anybody else but I'm still learning - with TUG's help - all the nuances of owning Weeks.  For example, I only learned about II's XYZ promotions earlier this year, after being a TUG member and making II exchanges for the last five years.  The DC is no different in that way - it will take time to learn but it's not impossible.  Soon enough, we'll all be able to recall the DC rules as easily as MVCI's!

In your case of wanting Lakeshore Reserve, I'd guess that your chances of getting an exchange will be better with the Destination Club.  This is because there are relatively few Weeks owners who will deposit LR into II, as compared to the number of intervals that MVCI owns and can deposit to the Exchange Company.  On the first few days that DC reservations could be made, several Exchange Members who converted Weeks and placed Waitlist requests for Marriott-held inventory (Trust and other) reported that their requests had come through fairly quickly.

I don't know if the VOA's remark about "more inventory at 12 months than 13" makes much sense, but I do believe that as time goes on and more owners participate in the DC there will be more inventory available in the Exchange Company for both Trust and Exchange Members.  What's encouraging is that Marriott has shown that they are willing to deposit their own inventory into the Exchange Company to fulfill Waitlist requests - it would be very difficult to get those requests filled if only Owner intervals were deposited.  As well, it appears they have access to Weeks deposited into II in order to fulfill Exchange Company requests.  Those two things mean that Marriott is committed to making a success of their new internal exchange program, and as soon as we learn all the rules we'll be able to make it a success for us, too!


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## siberiavol (Sep 14, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> I had planned to write a different thread today. What I wanted to say was how great I thought DC points were especially since I have enough weeks to convert to well over 20,000 DC points. This would let me make reservations at other than my home resort at the 13 month mark.
> 
> Unfortunately this is the thread I have to write. I called to check availability at Lakeshore Reserve and Oceana Palms for October 2011. My plan was to spend a week in a 3bdrm at Lakeshore with a Sunday checkin and then book consecutively at Oceana Palms for a 2bdrm OF for 5 days SUN-FRI. This is the off season at both resorts and I really did not anticipate much of a problem. My backup plan was to substitute Imperial Palms for Lakeshore and Ocean Pointe for Oceana Palms if necessary.
> 
> ...



What you wanted to do is why I joined the program. If there is no availability at those two resorts in October at thirteen months, when will there be any availability at thirteen months anywhere? If there is no wait list till twelve months then the whole" preferred " concept is a sham if nothing is going to be available till the twelve month mark. I am not saying this will be the norm. I don't know.

I doubt you have the time but I wonder what would happen if you called every day and made the exact same request. By the end of the second or third week if the availability was always zero and you reported it on TUG and then sent your letter and a copy of this thread which by then would have hundred of posts you might get someones attention.

Did you happen to ask if they had availability anywhere in the world at thirteen month? If you think about  it  perhaps the only inventory that Marriott knows is available at thirteen months is in the trust and they are not letting it go at thirteen months. I will be making thirteen month request in December for the same properties. I will be interested in finding out more on this situation. I might do some experimenting with thirteen months later in the week myself.


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## jimf41 (Sep 14, 2010)

SueDonJ,

Thoughtful post. I agree that there are so many new nuances to this DC system that it is going to take a while to go up the ladder on the learning curve. The only thing I question is the separation of Trust and Exchange points. This has been discussed ad infinatum on TUG but I'm not in the camp that says it will be the case. Think about it. How could they possibly keep track of this two, three or five years down the road? This can't be done with a simple Excel spreadsheet.

 In the old system you were not allowed to use MRP's received as a bonus for buying a TS to reserve a TS. That in fact was the rule. In reality it never happened and they could not possibly keep track of which MRP's were which in any kind of an active account. I believe the same will apply to DC points. This year they can do it because the system is brand new. Maybe they could possibly do it with me because I have no intention of buying Trust points so my account will be exclusively Exchange points. For people who own a mix of both and bank and borrow it will be ridiculously unwieldy to try to track which points are left in an account.

On the MVCI side it's just as complicated. First they have Trust inventory, then they have Owners depositing their weeks for MRP's, then owners converting to DC points, then unsold inventory that they haven't deposited in the Trust, then there is II inventory that they can swap for to fulfill DC requests. There are probably ten more pools that I can't think of now.

Combine the complexities of the owners points and the MVCI points and in a year or two tops they won't be able to accurately keep the inventories separate anymore. They'll be able to tell how many weeks they have available at a resort using points but they won't be able to discern whether an owner is using trust points or exchange points and they won't be able to figure out if what he's requesting requires trust points or exchange points.

I do agree with you that Marriott is committed to making the DC system work. I don't think that if we pushed the clock forward two years I would run into the same problem I ran into today.


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## jimf41 (Sep 14, 2010)

siberiavol said:


> I doubt you have the time but I wonder what would happen if you called every day and made the exact same request.



Having gracefully retired, kicking and screaming, from my career last year I have all the time I need to call them every day. I actually planned to call them weekly but why not everyday. I'll post if anything changes.


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## DanCali (Sep 14, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Regardless of the type of Points you own, Waitlist requests can be made at the 12-mo mark for 7 days or more; and at the 10-mo mark for less than 7 days.  Weeks must be converted to Points in order for an Exchange Member to make a Waitlist request (similar to MVCI Owners needing to "deposit first" into II in order to get that longer exchange window and/or an AC possibility.)



I can more or less understand the longer exchange window analogy. I'm not sure I follow what thing in Marriott's procedures or offerings corresponds to getting an AC (or any other 2-for-1 deal) from II... 

Moreover, II at least offers members the POSSIBILITY to "request first." This can be very meaningful if an owner secured a high-demand week and prefers to rent it if the exchange doesn't go through. Since Marriott forces you to convert to points in order to have an "ongoing request" (waitlist) you need to give up your week along with any reservation.

I can see how the program would be appealing to someone like the OP, who is retired, can travel whenever they wish, and has a LOT of points ($200,000 worth if someone were to buy them from Marriott directly). But if this points exchange system cannot even satisfy these requests to this type of valuable customer at 13 months out, how will the average 2000-5000 point owner who can travel only during school holidays (and doesn't plan a year in advance) fare?


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## jimf41 (Sep 15, 2010)

*Letter to David Babich*

I called again today. Same result as yesterday. I wrote a letter to MVCI and pasted it. If I get a response I'll post again.


Mr. Babich,

I enrolled in the Destination Club Points program in late July of this year. Owning multiple weeks in the Marriott Vacation club my Destination Club points awarded for converting my weeks to club points totals 24,775 Destination Club points. This affords me Premiere Plus status in the new system and with that status comes the ability to reserve 13 months in advance of the desired check in date.

This is a benefit that I also received under the old weeks based system. Yesterday I called to make a reservation at Lakeshore Reserve in Florida at exactly the 13 month advance mark. I was told there was no availability. I checked Imperial Palms, Oceana Palms and even my home resort Ocean Pointe and at all resorts the latest availability was 12 months out in September 2011 but nothing at 13 months out in October of 2011. I repeated the process today and the result was the same. You do not allow wait listing until the 12 month mark so I am now forced to call every day to check on availability.

What is the point of giving me the advantage of reserving a month ahead of owners who do not own as many points/weeks as I do if you are not going to insure at least some availability at that time?  If there was an owner at Lakeshore Reserve that was trying to get in at Ocean Pointe in October 2011 he was disappointed also. He can’t get in until I release my points to the Destination Club and I’m not doing that until the inventory at Lakeshore Reserve becomes available.

So here we sit. The Destination Club doesn’t get any availability at Lakeshore Reserve or Ocean Pointe, I’m disappointed because I can’t get into Lakeshore Reserve and because I was going to convert my Ocean Pointe weeks to 16,250 Destination Club points there are at least four owners who can’t get into Ocean Pointe. This is a lose/lose situation for all concerned.

While talking to your reservation agents I also learned the multiple week reservations using Destination Club points at the 13 month mark are not possible. In other words if I ever do find availability at the 13 month mark and I want to make a reservation for more than one week I have to call back the following week and subsequent weeks and hope the check in days match up.

This is not a functional system. If this continues I will go back to Interval International and use their “request first” method. At least with that system I could make a reservation in my home resort at the 13 month mark for as many weeks as I own. The $695.00 to enroll will have been wasted and the 800 bonus points will be useless to me.

I’m a firm believer in that Marriott will do what is necessary to make the Destination Club points system work. Marriott has the ability to release unsold inventory, use inventory gained from conversion to Marriott Reward points or even exchange equal value with Interval International to make inventory available at any given resort. You are not solely dependent on waiting on owners to convert their weeks to points. So do it already. Let’s make the system work for both of us.


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## windje2000 (Sep 15, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> I called again today. Same result as yesterday. I wrote a letter to MVCI and pasted it. If I get a response I'll post again.
> 
> 
> Mr. Babich,
> ...




Not *solely* dependent, but certainly very heavily dependent.  Especially at this 'start-up' stage in program life cycle.  

Considering the new program has greater appeal to high priced and / or multiple week owners - MVCI's best customers - they need to 'prime the pump' if they are to succeed in getting this started up and transitioned to an ongoing concern.  It increasingly appears that they are expecting folks like you to 'prime the pump' by converting your weeks to points.   

At least you have your deeds and can elect to exchange via II.  I can't imagine how a premium plus points purchaser would react faced with the same lack of inventory.  Unless, of course, those folks have been given an internal exchange company preference. 

Great letter.  If you haven't lately, check Bill Marriott's blog.  Some good letters there too.


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## SueDonJ (Sep 15, 2010)

Great letter, Jim.  Thanks for keeping us updated.


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## SueDonJ (Sep 15, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> ... Regardless of the type of Points you own, Waitlist requests can be made at the 12-mo mark for 7 days or more; and at the 10-mo mark for less than 7 days.  Weeks must be converted to Points in order for an Exchange Member to make a Waitlist request (similar to MVCI Owners needing to "deposit first" into II in order to get that longer exchange window and/or an AC possibility.) ...





DanCali said:


> I can more or less understand the longer exchange window analogy. I'm not sure I follow what thing in Marriott's procedures or offerings corresponds to getting an AC (or any other 2-for-1 deal) from II...
> 
> Moreover, II at least offers members the POSSIBILITY to "request first." This can be very meaningful if an owner secured a high-demand week and prefers to rent it if the exchange doesn't go through. Since Marriott forces you to convert to points in order to have an "ongoing request" (waitlist) you need to give up your week along with any reservation.



No doubt, being able to do "Request First" in II is an advantage, especially for the folks who are routinely able to trade up in II (which has not been my usual experience.)  But the other advantage to II that has been talked about in all these DC threads is the possibility of AC's and XYZ's, and they're not available with "Request First" II exchanges.  That's the only corollary I was making - that in each system you are required to give up your Week usage in order to get the best possible successful exchanges.

Although my money is still on the DC Exchange Company fulfilling more of the difficult exchange requests, because Marriott has already proven that they will deposit inventory to the Exchange Company in order to fulfill Waitlist requests.  Granted we still don't have access to immediate exchange confirmations for Marriott-held inventory, but I'm just not sure that we have a reason to expect immediacy.  If Marriott did pre-load inventory into the Exchange Company in order to provide a greater level of immediacy for Points-based exchanges, wouldn't that effectively limit Marriott's ability to satisfy non-Points (rentals, MRP-exchange, MOD-discount cash stays, etc.) requests for those intervals?  As an owner I want the intervals to be used as revenue-generators whenever possible, as opposed to them sitting empty.  If that means that the computers are set to run matches and release inventory to the Exchange Company within 1-2-3-however many days of a Waitlist request, so be it.

Where I do agree with Jim and others is that the Waitlist requests should be able to be taken on the day a Points-owner's Reservation Window opens.  That 13-mo DC advantage for Premium and Premium-Plus Owners becomes non-existent at the 12-mo mark, so there should be a mechanism whereby the advantage isn't completely negated by the Waitlist rules.



DanCali said:


> I can see how the program would be appealing to someone like the OP, who is retired, can travel whenever they wish, and has a LOT of points ($200,000 worth if someone were to buy them from Marriott directly). But if this points exchange system cannot even satisfy these requests to this type of valuable customer at 13 months out, how will the average 2000-5000 point owner who can travel only during school holidays (and doesn't plan a year in advance) fare?



Completely agree - this new system doesn't make much sense at all for a single-week owner who has little flexibility in his vacation schedule.  Multi-week owners who can play around in both systems are the winners here.


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## DanCali (Sep 15, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Although my money is still on the DC Exchange Company fulfilling more of the difficult exchange requests, because Marriott has already proven that they will deposit inventory to the Exchange Company in order to fulfill Waitlist requests.  Granted we still don't have access to immediate exchange confirmations for Marriott-held inventory, but I'm just not sure that we have a reason to expect immediacy.  If Marriott did pre-load inventory into the Exchange Company in order to provide a greater level of immediacy for Points-based exchanges, wouldn't that effectively limit Marriott's ability to satisfy non-Points (rentals, MRP-exchange, MOD-discount cash stays, etc.) requests for those intervals?  As an owner I want the intervals to be used as revenue-generators whenever possible, as opposed to them sitting empty.  If that means that the computers are set to run matches and release inventory to the Exchange Company within 1-2-3-however many days of a Waitlist request, so be it.



I think there are a couple of things to note in regards to this. Whatever Marriott deposits into the points exchange company (whether it's trust inventory or not) is their inventory. It is not something owners are entitled to have happen. As you point out, it limits their ability to satisfy non-points requests like nightly rentals, MOD or non-MOD. If they can rent those nights out (even via II getaways), they may be less likely to satisfy owner exchanges. 

Also, in theory, suppose they did deposit Jim's Lakeshore week and let him convert his OP week/s to points and make the exchange. Given that Marriott was the owner of the Lakeshore week, they are now rightfully entitled to do what they want with Jim's OP week (or however many days they should get at OP based on the points he used for LR + the points they skimmed relative to the average in his OP season). They can leave the OP week in the exchange system for other owners to have, but that again would be at the expense of their revenue. 

It seems that, at least for now, the exchange system relies on Marriott's goodwill to forego rental revenue on weeks they own in order to satisfy owner exchanges. It's a delicate balance between keeping owners happy, making them sweat enough on a waitlist to compromise on a less desired week (and less rental foregone by Marriott), and keeping shareholders happy by meeting Wall Street expectations...

Lastly, when you say "as an owner I want the intervals to be used as revenue-generators whenever possible, as opposed to them sitting empty" I don't necessarily agree. The rentals you describe generate revenue for Marriott, not the HOA. I'd rather have units sit empty (as long as MFs are paid) than have Marriott rent them on a nightly basis and increase the wear and tear...(even if Marriott pays MFs and reimburses the HOA for extra housekeeping costs). I especially don't like it that they can grab any empty unit at 75 days out (even one they don't own), rent it, and keep the revenue to themselves while owners pay for the extra wear and tear. I don't think the HOAs sees enough cash from those extra visitors to justify that extra wear on the resort.


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## hotcoffee (Sep 15, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> . . . The next problem that I discovered is that there is no way in the DC system to allow reservation of multiple weeks at the 13 month mark even if there is inventory. In other words, if a resort did show inventory at the 13 month mark but I wanted to reserve two consecutive weeks I would have to call back the next week and hope to get the second week. The 13 month consecutive/concurrent rule does not apply to DC points.
> . . . .



You may or may not be interested to know that in the opinion of the first of two Marriott reps I posed this issue to this is not true.  I'm still waiting on the second response.  

I also checked the "Summary of Reservation Windows" chart in the "EXCHANGE PROCEDURES" document.  It clearly says 1+ days for Premier-Plus members and 7+ days for a Premier member can be reserved at the Priority 1 reservation window (13-months).

So, it looks like Premier and Premier-plus members can reserve as many days as are available at 13 months.  They are not restricted to just 7 days.


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## DanCali (Sep 15, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> You may or may not be interested to know that in the opinion of the first of two Marriott reps I posed this issue to this is not true.  I'm still waiting on the second response.
> 
> I also checked the "Summary of Reservation Windows" chart in the "EXCHANGE PROCEDURES" document.  It clearly says 1+ days for Premier-Plus members and 7+ days for a Premier member can be reserved at the Priority 1 reservation window (13-months).
> 
> So, it looks like Premier and Premier-plus members can reserve as many days as are available at 13 months.  They are not restricted to just 7 days.



I think the issue is if you can reserve/exchange 10 days at one resort followed by say 8 days at another resort. Or do you need to wait for the 13 month window for the second exchange?


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## hotcoffee (Sep 15, 2010)

DanCali said:


> . . . If they can rent those nights out (even via II getaways), they may be less likely to satisfy owner exchanges. . . .



I know you believe that Marriott will rent weeks before allowing exchanges into them.  

I posed that question to some Marriott reps.  They both discounted the rental theory.  They felt that Marriott has a greater incentive to make their customers happy than denying them exchanges in order to rent weeks that the customers could have exchanged into.


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## SueDonJ (Sep 15, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I think there are a couple of things to note in regards to this. Whatever Marriott deposits into the points exchange company (whether it's trust inventory or not) is their inventory. It is not something owners are entitled to have happen. As you point out, it limits their ability to satisfy non-points requests like nightly rentals, MOD or non-MOD. If they can rent those nights out (even via II getaways), they may be less likely to satisfy owner exchanges.
> 
> Also, in theory, suppose they did deposit Jim's Lakeshore week and let him convert his OP week/s to points and make the exchange. Given that Marriott was the owner of the Lakeshore week, they are now rightfully entitled to do what they want with Jim's OP week (or however many days they should get at OP based on the points he used for LR + the points they skimmed relative to the average in his OP season). They can leave the OP week in the exchange system for other owners to have, but that again would be at the expense of their revenue.
> 
> It seems that, at least for now, the exchange system relies on Marriott's goodwill to forego rental revenue on weeks they own in order to satisfy owner exchanges. It's a delicate balance between keeping owners happy, making them sweat enough on a waitlist to compromise on a less desired week (and less rental foregone by Marriott), and keeping shareholders happy by meeting Wall Street expectations...



All true, and I'm sure that you're aware of the problems with Starwood renting out exchange inventory to the detriment of exchangers.  It's possible that Marriott will go that route, sure, but they've said that they will fulfill Points requests with available inventory that they're holding and so far it appears that's what they're doing.  (Again, not immediately, but it's happening.)  If their system allows for a first-come-first-served distribution of Marriott-held intervals (Trust, MRP-exchanged, MVCI Owner rentals, etc.) so that an interval is released when it's requested by the Exchange Company or marriott.com, I don't have a problem with that.  We could worry and fret over them not making intervals available to satisfy Waitlist and/or rental requests but I prefer not to worry and fret unless it's justified - after all, I don't worry and fret over II cherry-picking Weeks deposits to pad their condodirect.com side business.



DanCali said:


> Lastly, when you say "as an owner I want the intervals to be used as revenue-generators whenever possible, as opposed to them sitting empty" I don't necessarily agree. The rentals you describe generate revenue for Marriott, not the HOA. I'd rather have units sit empty (as long as MFs are paid) than have Marriott rent them on a nightly basis and increase the wear and tear...(even if Marriott pays MFs and reimburses the HOA for extra housekeeping costs). I especially don't like it that they can grab any empty unit at 75 days out (even one they don't own), rent it, and keep the revenue to themselves while owners pay for the extra wear and tear. I don't think the HOAs sees enough cash from those extra visitors to justify that extra wear on the resort.



We'll have to agree to disagree here.  I have no idea how much HOA income is derived from Marriott rentals, etc, but anything is better than nothing.  The added value of having non-MVCI owners seeing the properties and considering a purchase is as important as covering the costs of usage, IMO.  As well, I like that the possibility exists to pick up a rental for friends/family to visit the resort with me, without all of us crowding in to one unit like cattle.    We make use of II Getaways and Marriott rentals that way.


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## SueDonJ (Sep 15, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> You may or may not be interested to know that in the opinion of the first of two Marriott reps I posed this issue to this is not true.  I'm still waiting on the second response.
> 
> I also checked the "Summary of Reservation Windows" chart in the "EXCHANGE PROCEDURES" document.  It clearly says 1+ days for Premier-Plus members and 7+ days for a Premier member can be reserved at the Priority 1 reservation window (13-months).
> 
> So, it looks like Premier and Premier-plus members can reserve as many days as are available at 13 months.  They are not restricted to just 7 days.



I think that, like others have said, the problem occurs when consecutive stays at different resorts are wanted.  We had originally noticed this problem when the Inventory Release Calendar link was added to my-vacationclub.com, as it makes no allowances for consecutive check-in days at different resorts.  For each check-in day, regardless of the number of days stayed, the system appears to only allow the specific designated Call-In day depending upon the Reservation Windows rules, and not upon the check-in day of the first stay in a consecutive string.


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## DanCali (Sep 15, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> I know you believe that Marriott will rent weeks before allowing exchanges into them.
> 
> I posed that question to some Marriott reps.  They both discounted the rental theory.  They felt that Marriott has a greater incentive to make their customers happy than denying them exchanges in order to rent weeks that the customers could have exchanged into.



If Marriott does prefer to rent than give those weeks up for exchanges, you think a Marriott rep would admit to that? If they did the points exchange would be DOA...


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## windje2000 (Sep 15, 2010)

DanCali said:


> *I especially don't like it that they can grab any empty unit at 75 days out (even one they don't own), rent it, and keep the revenue*
> 
> to themselves while owners pay for the extra wear and tear. I don't think the HOAs sees enough cash from those extra visitors to justify that extra wear on the resort.



I didn't know that - the things you learn on the intertubes.  

But I think you have to look at Marriott as another owner with respect to company owned properties.  

If they own a unit they can rent it.  That's really not much else they can do with it.

If they are on the other side of an exchange with you, they can rent what you swapped with them.  If they do that swap with points, they have likely accounted for differences in rental revenue between the exchanged units.  

Otherwise there may be a difference in potential rent.  And Marriott may not do a swap where they potentially take a hit on rental income. 

But I sure didn't know about the 75 day rule.


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## hotcoffee (Sep 15, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> I think that, like others have said, the problem occurs when consecutive stays at different resorts are wanted.  We had originally noticed this problem when the Inventory Release Calendar link was added to my-vacationclub.com, as it makes no allowances for consecutive check-in days at different resorts.  For each check-in day, regardless of the number of days stayed, the system appears to only allow the specific designated Call-In day depending upon the Reservation Windows rules, and not upon the check-in day of the first stay in a consecutive string.



I am only responding to the way the grammer is worded in the OP post:

"The next problem that I discovered is that there is no way in the DC system to allow reservation of multiple weeks at the 13 month mark even if there is inventory. In other words, if a resort did show inventory at the 13 month mark but I wanted to reserve two consecutive weeks I would have to call back the next week and hope to get the second week. The 13 month consecutive/concurrent rule does not apply to DC points."

The language in that post sounds like there is only one resort involved.


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## siberiavol (Sep 15, 2010)

I did my own little test going looking for Oct 9, 2011 availability for four days That is more than twelve months away. I look in places with lots of properties and chose the properts  that had most likely availability in my opinion.

There was nothing in Hilton Head using Barony and Surfwatch as  a target. I tried Orlando. I looked at Lakeshore Reserve and Grand Vista. There was nothing at Lakeshore Reserve but Grand Vistas had availability for a two bedroom.

This proves it is at least possible to find SOMETHING at more than twelve months. It appeared the VOA was unable to search by location only and see all availability
 She had to search by individual property. It would seem with less than hundred properties Marriott could see all availability throughout the system for a given date if they had proper programing. They can do this on Marriott.com for hotels .


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## siberiavol (Sep 15, 2010)

I did my own little test going looking for Oct 9, 2011 availability for four days That is more than twelve months away. I look in places with lots of properties and chose the properts  that had most likely availability in my opinion.

There was nothing in Hilton Head using Barony and Surfwatch as  a target. I tried Orlando. I looked at Lakeshore Reserve and Grand Vista. There was nothing at Lakeshore Reserve but Grand Vistas had availability for a two bedroom.

This proves it is at least possible to find SOMETHING at more than twelve months. It appeared the VOA was unable to search by location only and see all availability
 She had to search by individual property. It would seem with less than hundred properties Marriott could see all availability throughout the system for a given date if they had proper programing. They can do this on Marriott.com for hotels .


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## DanCali (Sep 15, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> But I think you have to look at Marriott as another owner with respect to company owned properties.
> 
> If they own a unit they can rent it.  That's really not much else they can do with it.
> 
> If they are on the other side of an exchange with you, they can rent what you swapped with them. If they do that swap with points, they have likely accounted for differences in rental revenue between the exchanged units.



That's exactly the point I was making in the other post:



DanCali said:


> ...Whatever Marriott deposits into the points exchange company (whether it's trust inventory or not) is their inventory. It is not something owners are entitled to have happen.
> 
> Also, in theory, suppose they did deposit Jim's Lakeshore week and let him convert his OP week/s to points and make the exchange. Given that Marriott was the owner of the Lakeshore week, they are now rightfully entitled to do what they want with Jim's OP week...
> 
> It seems that, at least for now, the exchange system relies on Marriott's goodwill to forego rental revenue on weeks they own in order to satisfy owner exchanges. It's a delicate balance...



They will swap with you if the week they get in return (plus the value of the skim) is worth more to them than what they are giving up. Otherwise, they may or may not do it to make the exchange system work out... but I personally highly doubt they would sacrifice profitability that much, especially when they know that someone on a waitlist will eventually compromise on their exchange (or risk points expiring).

Susan made this point earlier:



SueDonJ said:


> Marriott has already proven that they will deposit inventory to the Exchange Company in order to fulfill Waitlist requests.




It is true that some people reported that their requests were filled. But is this the norm? Do all waitlist request get filled within a few days? I certainly didn't get the impression that most waitlist requests were filled. We heard from a few that did get their exchanges... what about all the others?


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## SueDonJ (Sep 15, 2010)

DanCali said:


> ... It is true that some people reported that their requests were filled. But is this the norm? Do all waitlist request get filled within a few days? I certainly didn't get the impression that most waitlist requests were filled. We heard from a few that did get their exchanges... what about all the others?



I don't think we'll know the "norm" until the system has been up and running at least through an entire calendar/reservation year.  On July 26th when they began taking reservations most of us were looking for dates which had already passed the reservation release dates.  As well, some of us were hesitant to try the Waitlist until we'd heard of some success with it.  For those two reasons I don't think very many Waitlist requests have been made, certainly not enough to extrapolate any kind of "norm."  FWIW, which admittedly is again not enough of a sample to determine a "norm," I don't know of any Waitlist requests that were not filled within a matter of days.

For me that's enough, to know that Marriott did release inventory it was holding to the Exchange Company when it had been requested.  I don't think it means that any and every Waitlist request will definitely be fulfilled, but no exchange system can make that guarantee.  I would definitely be concerned if there had been no reports of fulfilled Waitlist requests, but that's not been the case.

Jim's reservation request here is unique in that I think he's the first to have posted about trying to use the 13-mo DC advantage as soon as his Reservation Window opened.  IF the rules allowed him to Waitlist now then that's what I'd advise him to do because I think Marriott is holding enough Lakeshore Reserve inventory to deposit into the Exchange Company to fulfill his request.  But as we've discussed, the rules don't allow him to Waitlist at 13-mos - that's what I think needs to be reviewed and changed by Marriott.  On the plus side (and looking through my rose-colored glasses  ) this is a change that Marriott can make - the 12/10-mos Waitlist dates are not specified in the contracts and are therefore arbitrary.


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## windje2000 (Sep 15, 2010)

DanCali said:


> They will swap with you if the week they get in return (plus the value of the skim) is worth more to them than what they are giving up. Otherwise, they may or may not do it to make the exchange system work out... but I personally highly doubt they would sacrifice profitability that much, especially when they know that someone on a waitlist will eventually compromise on their exchange (or risk points expiring).



I agree - and a forced compromise and / or points expiring owing to an inability to make a reasonable exchange will leave a lasting negative impression.  Maybe even enough to overcome the natural inertia regarding switching back to weeks trading in II if that remains available.  

Its surprising to me.  They should be doing their utmost to get the early adopters everything they want from II if there are no deposits in the Exchange Co. in this start-up phase.  Having 'request first' waitlisting would give them the ability to scrounge for inventory as the program gets off the ground.

What makes II work is size and diversity.  I usually trade platinum weeks for HHI gold because of the heat and humidity and crowds in the summer.  Personal preference.  But that's what makes a market.  Some will say I'm trading down. But its what I prefer.  And I hope anyone getting my platinum  weeks as an uptrade enjoys them just as much.

If Marriott, which is the sole counter-party in DClub trading, is ONLY going to engage in trades where they win (including the house advantage) the system will never get off the ground.


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## sparty (Sep 15, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> I usually trade platinum weeks for HHI gold because of the heat and humidity and crowds in the summer.  Personal preference.  But that's what makes a market. .



You make a very good pro-DC point.. Using DC you can  get approximately an additional 1K in pts by slightly switching the dates between gold/plat.


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## sparty (Sep 15, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> I don't think we'll know the "norm" until the system has been up and running at least through an entire calendar/reservation year.  On July 26th when they began taking reservations most of us were looking for dates which had already passed the reservation release dates.  As well, some of us were hesitant to try the Waitlist until we'd heard of some success with it.  For those two reasons I don't think very many Waitlist requests have been made, certainly not enough to extrapolate any kind of "norm."  FWIW, which admittedly is again not enough of a sample to determine a "norm," I don't know of any Waitlist requests that were not filled within a matter of days.
> 
> For me that's enough, to know that Marriott did release inventory it was holding to the Exchange Company when it had been requested.  I don't think it means that any and every Waitlist request will definitely be fulfilled, but no exchange system can make that guarantee.  I would definitely be concerned if there had been no reports of fulfilled Waitlist requests, but that's not been the case.
> 
> Jim's reservation request here is unique in that I think he's the first to have posted about trying to use the 13-mo DC advantage as soon as his Reservation Window opened.  IF the rules allowed him to Waitlist now then that's what I'd advise him to do because I think Marriott is holding enough Lakeshore Reserve inventory to deposit into the Exchange Company to fulfill his request.  But as we've discussed, the rules don't allow him to Waitlist at 13-mos - that's what I think needs to be reviewed and changed by Marriott.  On the plus side (and looking through my rose-colored glasses  ) this is a change that Marriott can make - the 12/10-mos Waitlist dates are not specified in the contracts and are therefore arbitrary.



Very good summary.  My experience and thoughts in DC is exactly as you describe.


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## Herb33 (Sep 16, 2010)

BOTTOM LINE:  People calling in at the 13-month point to book a DC Points reservation for 1 or more consecutive nights do not have access to legacy owner inventory at the requested resort which has not been exchanged for MR points, exchanged for DC points, or deposited to II.

The above according to John Goodman, Director of Customer Advocacy at MVCI HQ.


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## Fredm (Sep 16, 2010)

Herb33 said:


> BOTTOM LINE:  People calling in at the 13-month point to book a DC Points reservation for 1 or more consecutive nights do not have access to legacy owner inventory at the requested resort which has not been exchanged for MR points, exchanged for DC points, or deposited to II.
> 
> The above according to John Goodman, Director of Customer Advocacy at MVCI HQ.



This is correct.
Home resort owners retain their reservation rights.


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## windje2000 (Sep 16, 2010)

sparty said:


> You make a very good pro-DC point.. Using DC you can  get approximately an additional 1K in pts by slightly switching the dates between gold/plat.



Platinum trades well - weeks are the currency denomination I prefer to deal with - and I don't always go to HHI.  Moreover, 
once you get 'sucked in' to the banking borrowing and renting points games it will probably cost you to get out.  For me more trouble than its worth.

The possibility of a 'realistic' uptrade (if I want to go elsewhere) is always possible in II and with enough advance planning probable.  That 'option' value is inherent in II trading and valuable to me.  Many II participants are satisficers rather than maximizers.  

Member uptrades don't exist in DC, unless your name is Marriott -- for which every trade is an uptrade.  

I guess I'd rather see the benefits of my downtrades go to other Marriott owners (sort of a payback for my uptrades) rather than Marriott.


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## willwintoo (Sep 16, 2010)

*Seems like that to us, too.*



windje2000 said:


> Platinum trades well - weeks are the currency denomination I prefer to deal with - and I don't always go to HHI.  Moreover,
> once you get 'sucked in' to the banking borrowing and renting points games it will probably cost you to get out.  For me more trouble than its worth.
> 
> The possibility of a 'realistic' uptrade (if I want to go elsewhere) is always possible in II and with enough advance planning probable.  That 'option' value is inherent in II trading and valuable to me.  Many II participants are satisficers rather than maximizers.
> ...



We're considering the DC program, but know our way around existing system(s). Trying to grasp advantages of DC. Seem to be marginal. Wonder what will happen to HGA awards program - WG


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## windje2000 (Sep 16, 2010)

willwintoo said:


> We're considering the DC program, but know our way around existing system(s). Trying to grasp advantages of DC. Seem to be marginal. Wonder what will happen to HGA awards program - WG



Its little more than an exchange company, with what in some cases is a hefty initiation fee - resales in particular.  Points trades can only be executed by giving Marriott a house advantage, like any bet in a casino other than odds bets in craps.

Consolidated fee benefits (exchange, lockoff, II membership and exchanges. etc) can be attractive to multiple weeks owners who trade frequently.  No guarantees as to how long consolidated fee benefits will persist.  

The program works best for those with multiple and/or high value weeks which are not good II traders (e.g. 3BR non lockoff)

Welcome to TUG!


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## hotcoffee (Sep 16, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> I think that, like others have said, the problem occurs when consecutive stays at different resorts are wanted.  We had originally noticed this problem when the Inventory Release Calendar link was added to my-vacationclub.com, as it makes no allowances for consecutive check-in days at different resorts.  For each check-in day, regardless of the number of days stayed, the system appears to only allow the specific designated Call-In day depending upon the Reservation Windows rules, and not upon the check-in day of the first stay in a consecutive string.



I talked to a senior VOA on the subject of whether consecutive weeks can be reserved at multiple resorts at 13 months.  She told me that she can make those reservations as long as the week at each resort is available.   Okay, but that was understood from the beginning.  Obviously, both resorts would have had to have released their inventory, and the weeks would have to be available at both resorts to get the reservations.

So, as far as I am concerned, both restrictions mentioned in OP's original post about not being able to reserve consecutive weeks at 13 months out don't in reality exist.  A Premier or Premier-plus member can reserve as many days at 13 months as have been released and are available.


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## windje2000 (Sep 16, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> I talked to a senior VOA on the subject of whether consecutive weeks can be reserved at multiple resorts at 13 months.  She told me that she can make those reservations as long as the week at each resort is available.   Okay, but that was understood from the beginning.  Obviously, both resorts would have had to have released their inventory, and the weeks would have to be available at both resorts to get the reservations.
> 
> So, as far as I am concerned, both restrictions mentioned in OP's original post about not being able to reserve consecutive weeks at 13 months out don't in reality exist.  A Premier or Premier-plus member can reserve as many days at 13 months as have been released and are available.



I don't think 'released' is the right word.  Inventory is 'released' so that owners can make reservations.  Inventory is not 'released' to the exchange company.

Exchange Company inventory available to Premier and PrPlus members exists when: 

1.  legacy owners convert weeks to points, or 
2.  points owners reserve Exchange Company weeks -- and trust inventory is contributed to the Exchange Company to replace them.  

Your last sentence would be clearer with the following changes:



> A Premier or Premier-plus member can reserve as many days at 13 months as have been _converted or exchanged_ by owners and are _therefore_ available _in the exchange company_.


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## hotcoffee (Sep 16, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> I don't think 'released' is the right word.  Inventory is 'released' so that owners can make reservations.  Inventory is not 'released' to the exchange company.
> 
> Exchange Company inventory available to Premier and PrPlus members exists when:
> 
> ...



Actually, I borrowed the term "released" from the VOA.  It was not my word.  My main point was that there are no restrictions on the number of days one can reserve at 13 months.  But, of course, if the inventory is not available, it won't help much even if you are allowed to reserve it.

I'm far more concerned about the waitlist restriction at 13 months,  I'm concerned enough about that one that I might eventually write a letter to Marriott.  Since much of the inventory that eventually will become available will not yet be available at 13 months, not being able to get in the queue to grab it when it does become available negates a significant amount of the advantage of being able to reserve at 13 months.


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## SueDonJ (Sep 16, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> I talked to a senior VOA on the subject of whether consecutive weeks can be reserved at multiple resorts at 13 months.  She told me that she can make those reservations as long as the week at each resort is available.   Okay, but that was understood from the beginning.  Obviously, both resorts would have had to have released their inventory, and the weeks would have to be available at both resorts to get the reservations.
> 
> So, as far as I am concerned, both restrictions mentioned in OP's original post about not being able to reserve consecutive weeks at 13 months out don't in reality exist.  A Premier or Premier-plus member can reserve as many days at 13 months as have been released and are available.



That's good to know, thanks.  I haven't tried to book consecutive different-resort stays at 13-mos but was going by the Inventory Release Calendar mechanism and the few posts on TUG about it.  Now we can add in to the mix your info that a VOA has said they can do it (if the inventory is available, of course.)  Every little bit helps.   



hotcoffee said:


> Actually, I borrowed the term "released" from the VOA.  It was not my word.  My main point was that there are no restrictions on the number of days one can reserve at 13 months.  But, of course, if the inventory is not available, it won't help much even if you are allowed to reserve it.
> 
> *I'm far more concerned about the waitlist restriction at 13 months*,  I'm concerned enough about that one that I might eventually write a letter to Marriott.  Since much of the inventory that eventually will become available will not yet be available at 13 months, not being able to get in the queue to grab it when it does become available negates a significant amount of the advantage of being able to reserve at 13 months.



I completely agree with what's bolded - Marriott should re-think these 12/10-mo Waitlist restrictions so that Waitlist request can be taken whenever a Member's Reservation Window opens.


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## tiel (Sep 16, 2010)

I have to admit, I've been out of the loop here at Marriott Central on TUG, and I haven't studied the MVCD rules regarding Club points, because we have not purchased any Club points, and we don't have any plans for redeeming our weeks for Club points.  However, we do have the 800 pluspoints we got for enrolling.

So, this evening I called to attempt to reserve 4 weekday nights at Crystal Shores beginning October 9 or 10, 2011 (we are Premiere Plus).  There was no availability, so I was waitlisted...no problem.  

From reading the posts above, I get the impression I should not have been waitlisted at this point.  Is that what is being said, or am I just confused...again?!?!  :rofl:


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## hotcoffee (Sep 16, 2010)

tiel said:


> I have to admit, I've been out of the loop here at Marriott Central on TUG, and I haven't studied the MVCD rules regarding Club points, because we have not purchased any Club points, and we don't have any plans for redeeming our weeks for Club points.  However, we do have the 800 pluspoints we got for enrolling.
> 
> So, this evening I called to attempt to reserve 4 weekday nights at Crystal Shores beginning October 9 or 10, 2011 (we are Premiere Plus).  There was no availability, so I was waitlisted...no problem.
> 
> From reading the posts above, I get the impression I should not have been waitlisted at this point.  Is that what is being said, or am I just confused...again?!?!  :rofl:



Hmmmmmm.  If they allowed you to be waitlisted at almost 13 months, I am unsure of what is going on.  We had several people post on this forum that they were unable to go on a waitlist at 13 months.  Also, I asked my assigned VOA (who is a senior VOA), and she at that time (i.e., about a week after the July 26 opening) told me that they were not waitlisting at 13 months because they believed it would be unfair to the people trying to make reservations at 12 months.  So, now you say that they waitlisted you at more than 12 months out.  Don't know what is going on.  Maybe they heard the all the whinning about it.


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## SueDonJ (Sep 16, 2010)

tiel said:


> I have to admit, I've been out of the loop here at Marriott Central on TUG, and I haven't studied the MVCD rules regarding Club points, because we have not purchased any Club points, and we don't have any plans for redeeming our weeks for Club points.  However, we do have the 800 pluspoints we got for enrolling.
> 
> So, this evening I called to attempt to reserve 4 weekday nights at Crystal Shores beginning October 9 or 10, 2011 (we are Premiere Plus).  There was no availability, so I was waitlisted...no problem.
> 
> From reading the posts above, I get the impression I should not have been waitlisted at this point.  Is that what is being said, or am I just confused...again?!?!  :rofl:





hotcoffee said:


> Hmmmmmm.  If they allowed you to be waitlisted at almost 13 months, I am unsure of what is going on.  We had several people post on this forum that they were unable to go on a waitlist at 13 months.  Also, I asked my assigned VOA (who is a senior VOA), and she at that time (i.e., about a week after the July 26 opening) told me that they were not waitlisting at 13 months because they believed it would be unfair to the people trying to make reservations at 12 months.  So, now you say that they waitlisted you at more than 12 months out.  Don't know what is going on.  Maybe they heard the all the whinning about it.



I only remember one person (wish I could remember who) posting about going on the Waitlist for 13-mo inventory during the first few days that they were taking reservations, and then Marriott called him several days or a week later to tell him they were removing his request.  That was how we found out about the 12/10-month restrictions for the Waitlist.

Tiel, I wouldn't be surprised if you get a similar call.  Not that I'm saying Marriott would be right - because I think they can and should take Waitlist requests when the Reservation Windows open, and that they shouldn't hurt Owners with their mistakes - but only that they've done it once already and the poster didn't get anywhere with his complaints.  (I'll try to find the link if I can remember his name or a keyword or two to do a search.)


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## tiel (Sep 16, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> I only remember one person (wish I could remember who) posting about going on the Waitlist for 13-mo inventory during the first few days that they were taking reservations, and then Marriott called him several days or a week later to tell him they were removing his request.  That was how we found out about the 12/10-month restrictions for the Waitlist.
> 
> Tiel, I wouldn't be surprised if you get a similar call.  Not that I'm saying Marriott would be right - because I think they can and should take Waitlist requests when the Reservation Windows open, and that they shouldn't hurt Owners with their mistakes - but only that they've done it once already and the poster didn't get anywhere with his complaints.  (I'll try to find the link if I can remember his name or a keyword or two to do a search.)



Thanks for the info; don't remember reading about this before.  But, if Marriott does undo my waitlisting, it'll be ok.  I'll just keep trying until I can waitlist, if that becomes necessary.  That'll be a nuisance, but not a big deal for us...this time!


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## Luckybee (Sep 17, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> I know you believe that Marriott will rent weeks before allowing exchanges into them.
> 
> I posed that question to some Marriott reps.  They both discounted the rental theory.  They felt that Marriott has a greater incentive to make their customers happy than denying them exchanges in order to rent weeks that the customers could have exchanged into.



I dont know if this is meaningful or not and it is anecdotal but I found an email I received from Marriott today interesting. I like many others get notifications of Marriott hotel promos by email . Today for the first time that I can find (and I searched back through the last 4 years of emails to make sure I simply didnt overlook a previous one) I recieved one for Marriott Villas which stated :

*"DISCOVER YOUR VACATION DREAMS
STAY IN A VILLA AND SAVE 20% THIS FALL!
Why stay in a hotel room when you can relax in a villa? It's time to discover your vacation dreams!

Now through December 17, 2010, receive 20% off when you stay two or more nights at Marriott Vacation Club® or Grand Residences by Marriott® resorts worldwide.

Enjoy spacious villa accommodations with all the luxurious comforts of a vacation home away from home!

Plan your villa vacation today!"*


I find this interesting for a couple of reasons and it makes me wonder if in fact Dan is correct that Marriott might be trying to rent the villas rather than release space for exchange or getaways. It is interesting because for the past few years we have had friends who have booked on getaway packages for Aruba in Nov. and have had no diffiulty in getting those for the same time as we've gone. This year nothing is available and I dont just mean for the weeks they are interested in. There has always been fairly decent availability in getaways for the Surf Club at some point throughout the year, usually a page or 2. The OC not so much....but at least 15- 20 different weeks in various room configurations. I've been watching for the past couple of months(when I usually look) for Nov. and there is very little...1 week in a studio!
After getting this email I decided to scan the overall availability of getaways to various locations where getways were always available at some time. The drop in Marriott resorts was amazing to me. 
I find it difficult to believe that this is merely a coincidence, and given the email (of course an owners discount would be far more valuable than the promo...but that isnt my point), it does seem that Marriott is putting a real push on to "rent" the villas out.
It would be even more interesting to know if there were those attempting to get an exchange into a villa for this time period being shot down only to find plenty of "rental" space available.


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## hotcoffee (Sep 17, 2010)

Luckybee said:


> I find this interesting for a couple of reasons and it makes me wonder if in fact Dan is correct that Marriott might be trying to rent the villas rather than release space for exchange or getaways. . . .



It could be as you theorize.  However, there is one big difference between anything that went on prior to June 20, 2010 and since June 20, 2010.  That, of course, is the points program.  Prior to June 20, all of that unsold inventory needed to be dealt with.  They could have, of course, dumped it into II (and I'm sure they did dump some of it in), and they could have rented as much as they could.  Now, there is a new option for them.  They can feed it into the points program.  I disagree with some TUGGERs in that I believe Marriott has a big incentive to make the points program work.  They are only selling points now.  Making this program successful has got to be a major motivation for them.  What exchange company would not want to be successful?  If Marriott denies an exchange because they believe they can make a few bucks more by renting, they make another customer unhappy (and they got enough unhappy customers already).  They cannot make customers unhappy too much before people get the idea that the new program is just not worth buying into.  I surely do think that Marriott will attempt to rent weeks that they think they might get stuck with; but, right now, they have got to have a pretty strong incentive to make exchanges for people.


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## DanCali (Sep 17, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Making this program successful has got to be a major motivation for them.  What exchange company would not want to be successful?  If Marriott denies an exchange because they believe they can make a few bucks more by renting, they make another customer unhappy (and they got enough unhappy customers already).  They cannot make customers unhappy too much before people get the idea that the new program is just not worth buying into.  I surely do think that Marriott will attempt to rent weeks that they think they might get stuck with; but, right now, they have got to have a pretty strong incentive to make exchanges for people.



So should they forego rentals and miss Wall Street earnings expectations to satisfy exchanges for points owners/exchangers? Have they indicated any guidance to shareholders about their intent to do that?


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## dioxide45 (Sep 17, 2010)

It seems that for back to back stays at multiple resorts 13 months out the DC has a disadvantage compared to weeks. So it doesn't seem like you can create a new confirmation for any stay that begins outside of the release calendar in DC like you can in weeks. This seems like a disadvantage to using points.

However, one of the reasons many people used the 13 month rule was to book and deposit. Those using the DC program are booking to use. So I don't think there will be as much demand for those reservations at 13 months out.

The problem I see with the 13 month rule is that there won't ever be a lot of inventory available. Currently in weeks, 50% of the weeks can be had at 13 months out. In the DC program, it doesn't work that way, only weeks that have been made available in to exchange company more than 13 months in advance are available to be booked. The problem is that enrollees have until September 30th of the prior year to elect points. Also, owners have until December 31 to trade their week for points. Also it doesn't seem like true trust inventory is going to the exchange company until they exchange through the exchange company, and then who knows what Marriott is truly making available to the exchange company.

There will be some people who borrow points from a future year, so those weeks will become available. But I see a shortage of available inventory at least for the first year in DC. Perhaps after the first year, it will get better, only time will tell.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 17, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> I don't worry and fret over II cherry-picking Weeks deposits to pad their condodirect.com side business.



I am not sure how much you really need to fret over IIs condodirect side business. This outlet seems to be IIs last ditch effort to unload weeks to the general public. I never see primo weeks on condodirect. Just leftovers that no one really wants. I am not thinking there is a lot of padding going on.


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## jimf41 (Sep 18, 2010)

Luckybee said:


> I find it difficult to believe that this is merely a coincidence, and given the email (of course an owners discount would be far more valuable than the promo...but that isnt my point), it does seem that Marriott is putting a real push on to "rent" the villas out.
> It would be even more interesting to know if there were those attempting to get an exchange into a villa for this time period being shot down only to find plenty of "rental" space available.




I don't think rental competition is the reason for lack of availability at the 13 month mark. Marriott reservations can only be made 11.5 months in advance through the normal hotel reservation system. The deals offered by MVCI occasionally are usually 4 to 6 months in advance.


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## SueDonJ (Sep 18, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure how much you really need to fret over IIs condodirect side business. This outlet seems to be IIs last ditch effort to unload weeks to the general public. I never see primo weeks on condodirect. Just leftovers that no one really wants. I am not thinking there is a lot of padding going on.



That was sort of my point - that I don't think it's necessary to fret over Marriott or II taking prime inventory for rentals, at the expense of exchangers.  At least not until we see it actually happening.


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## Fredm (Sep 18, 2010)

jimf41 said:


> I don't think rental competition is the reason for lack of availability at the 13 month mark.



The reason for lack of availability at 13 and 12 months is owner reservation rights. Hence, one should not expect reservations to be quickly confirmed until the 10 month window (except at the trust resorts).

As has been mentioned here on several occasions, the only inventory available is that which has been deposited with I.I., MRP conversions, and legacy weeks surrendered for DC points (prorated by week).


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## dioxide45 (Sep 18, 2010)

I think the inability to wait-list at 13 months in the DC program is a big drawback. The only people with the advantage here are trust owners reserving at a trust resort 13 months out. They shouldn't have many problems. However, anyone looking to DC exchange inventory 13 months in advance will have difficulties.


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## hotcoffee (Sep 18, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> That was sort of my point - that I don't think it's necessary to fret over Marriott or II taking prime inventory for rentals, at the expense of exchangers.  At least not until we see it actually happening.



Given the size of Marriott, I cannot believe the relatively small amount of rental income from unused timeshare weeks is worth the sacrifice of the new program.  I am not concerned about not getting a points exchange because Marriott rented eveything I wanted to exchange into.  I am more concerned about the inventory just not being there to start with.  It looks like it might be fairly easy to exchange into Ko Olina and probably, to some extent, MOC also.  But, there are sold-out and nearly sold-out resorts that I might also like to go to some day.  For example, I might like to go down to Hilton Head one summer.  I wonder how successful we will be exchanging into sold-out resorts in a platinum season.  I don't see any 13-month advantage for sold-out resorts.  That is probably always going to be a waitlist thing.  That is why I am concerned about whether we can waitlist at 13 months.


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## GregT (Sep 18, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I think the inability to wait-list at 13 months in the DC program is a big drawback. The only people with the advantage here are trust owners reserving at a trust resort 13 months out. They shouldn't have many problems. However, anyone looking to DC exchange inventory 13 months in advance will have difficulties.



Dixie, 

I agree completely -- it significantly reduces the value of 13 month access if you can't put in the waitlist request -- and since inventory availability is subject to the redemption/exchange patterns of the week owner, it may take awhile for that week to ever be available.

I called yesterday out of curiousity to see what was available in Hawaii 13 months out (which is in their slowest season).

Ko Olina had decent availability but Kauai Lagoons had nothing -- very interesting considering that Marriott owns near 100% of the thing.

I'm sure Marriott is making a list of things to incorporate into the system and I'll offer:

1) 13 month waitlist ability
2) Waitlist without having to redeem your week 
3) Ability to FlexChange at lower point value
4) Offer inducements to redeem week early (offer XX additional points -- would also weaken the skim resistance)
5) Ability to view available inventory online 

As others have said, this is a points-based exchange system, versus a points system -- a very important distinction since in an exchange system you do not have control over the inventory -- it is controlled by its rightful owners (us).   And its not clear yet how willing the owners are to relinquish their weeks.

Its doubly interesting when you can't reserve a Marriott Frenchman's Cove for January 29th - February 5th 2011 using points --- but you can rent one from Marriott.com for ~$600/night.     Hmmmmm.    I'm sure Marriott has a good response, but the perception isn't very good when inventory availability is spotty.

Good luck to all,

Greg


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## hotcoffee (Sep 18, 2010)

GregT said:


> . . . . Its doubly interesting when you can't reserve a Marriott Frenchman's Cove for January 29th - February 5th 2011 using points --- but you can rent one from Marriott.com for ~$600/night.     Hmmmmm.    I'm sure Marriott has a good response, but the perception isn't very good when inventory availability is spotty.



Is that part of their platinum season down there?  Are they sold out of platinum?  Perhaps Marriott might have a couple of rentals available from delinquencies or MRP trades that they are trying to get used.

Also, I wonder how Marriott is handling points exchanges there since they are still only selling weeks.  I wonder whether exchanges might still have to go through II.


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## DanCali (Sep 18, 2010)

GregT said:


> 2) Waitlist without having to redeem your week



Not having this is the biggest drawback of the points exchange in my opinion. It's the main reason I didn't enroll. It would be very easy to implement but here is why I think Marriott will never do it:

Under the current arrangement, to make an ongoing request owner is required to redeem for points and give up the week in favor of the points exchange. When this happens Marriott immediately profits from the skim, whether or not the exchange is delivered. The week, or a different week in that season, is then available in the points exchange for other owners and Marriott to exchange with. Marriott can trade with the weeks it feels it maximize their opportunities. Owners who don't get exchanges are, or will be at some point, under pressure to compromise for less desired exchanges or risk their points expiring or not vacationing at all.

With a "request first" Marriott gets the skim profit only if the exchange is delivered. Owners will have little incentive to deposit first (unlike II, trade power is not really based on week reserved or when you deposit). Owners have less incentive to compromise and request lesser exchanges. Owners retain the right to rent their week, increasing competition with Marriott. Overall, not much reason for Marriott to like this...

Moreover, it seems that Marriott can generally cherry pick weeks to exchange with under either option (but they guarantee their skim profit with "deposit first"). Remember that most exchanges with trust resorts are exchanges with Marriott which they can turn around and rent if they choose to. They own the trust inventory and can, justifiably so, do what they want with it. 

Suppose an Orlando owner wants to get a summer NCV week and redeems two Orlando weeks for points and waitlists. Now suppose a Hawaii owner wants a summer NCV week and waitlists. Who gets the NCV week (owned by Marriott)? My guess is that the Hawaii owner will get it for 2 reasons... (i) Marriott can rent the Hawaii week for more than 2 Orlando weeks, and (ii) the skim from 1 Hawaii week is bigger than the skim from 2 Orlando weeks (this would matter only under "request first"; with "deposit first," Marriott pockets both skims regardless of delivering exchanges). It won't matter one bit that the Orlando owner waitlisted first (does it say ANYWHERE what waitlist priority is based on?  ) They know very well the Orlando owner will eventually be forced to take something else once they redeem for points.

Of course it is possible that both owners above will get their exchange. But my point is that Marriott may not take two Orlando weeks for a summer NCV summer week that they can rent for $3500 if they can't rent the two Orlando weeks for more. They will take the Hawaii week for the NCV week because that's a no brainer when it comes to their inflated rental rates. 

Note that with "deposit first" Marriott math is:

"Make exchange if we can rent the week we take more than the week we give to the owner (we profit from skim either way)"

With exchange first Marriott's math becomes:

"Make exchange if we can rent the week we take more than the week we give to the owner less the profit we make from the skim"

The latter would be more favorable to owners and increases the likelihood or making the (down)trade with Marriott.

So much flexibility and convenience (and profit) from Marriott's perspective under the current "deposit first" arrangement. They will change it only if not changing it becomes a serious threat to the success of the program...



GregT said:


> Its doubly interesting when you can't reserve a Marriott Frenchman's Cove for January 29th - February 5th 2011 using points --- but you can rent one from Marriott.com for ~$600/night.



My comments above also addresses this. If they will get a week they can rent for more than $600/night in exchange they will give up the MFC week....


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## jimf41 (Oct 6, 2010)

*Good news.*

I've been calling MVCI since mid September to book in FL for October 2011. Until today no availability for DC points at Lakeshore for a 3bdrm and none at Oceana Palms for a 2bdrm. 

Today there was availability at Lakeshore for 3bdrm's all the way through Halloween week so I booked 30 OCT through 6 NOV 2011 at Lakeshore and then a 2bdrm for the prior week at Oceana Palms. The DC program was a little disappointing to start but it worked out very well in the end. Much better than trying to trade through II IMO.

The Oceana Palms unit is a 2bdrm OV and I wanted an OF but the availability on those is lagging a bit. The latest one available had a checkin around October 10th or so. The nice thing is I can keep calling back until the 12 month mark and see if it comes open. After that I can waitlist and I'm confident I'll get it.

It was 3675 DC points for the Lakeshore unit and 1500 for the Oceana Palms unit (5 days SUN-FRI). I turned in my 3 Silver Ocean Pointe units for a total of 11,875 plus the 800 point sign up bonus and received 12,675. The two units cost 5175 and that leaves me with 7500 points that expire 31DEC11 unless I bank them.

I plan on using then for Frenchman's Cove in February 2012. We'll see if that works as well.

So far I'm a happy camper but I'm in a good position with a large amount of points to play with. I don't think my plan will work as well for a person with 1 or 2 weeks except maybe Hawaii owners.  I'm going to try the 13 month reservation again in January 2011 for Frenchman's Cove in February 2012. I'll post back and let you know how that turn's out.


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