# What should I expect from my realtor



## chellej (Jun 28, 2013)

We listed our house a few weeks ago and wondered what we should expect from our listing agent.  So far it has been a frustrating experience and of course she wants the house perfect.  I have asked her to send me a copy of the listing agreement because I had to catch a plane shortly after signing with her and don't have a copy to read the details.

Should I expect her to do open houses or does that have to be specified.  It is on the MLS and several local media.   How much should we expect her to realistically do.  Isn't marketing what she gets the commission for when it sells?

Tonight she asked me about marketing allowances...I am not sure what this is as this is the first I have heard of it but suspect she is going to want us to pay for marketing.....waiting to hear on that one.  I know there are several realtors on the bbs...would love to hear your input as to what I should expect


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## ScoopKona (Jun 28, 2013)

chellej said:


> We listed our house a few weeks ago and wondered what we should expect from our listing agent.  So far it has been a frustrating experience and of course she wants the house perfect.  I have asked her to send me a copy of the listing agreement because I had to catch a plane shortly after signing with her and don't have a copy to read the details.
> 
> Should I expect her to do open houses or does that have to be specified.  It is on the MLS and several local media.   How much should we expect her to realistically do.  Isn't marketing what she gets the commission for when it sells?
> 
> Tonight she asked me about marketing allowances...I am not sure what this is as this is the first I have heard of it but suspect she is going to want us to pay for marketing.....waiting to hear on that one.  I know there are several realtors on the bbs...would love to hear your input as to what I should expect



What should you expect? You should expect to pay her a commission if your house sells. That's ALL you should expect. Anything else is a bonus.

Isn't marketing her job? No it isn't. You signed a contract with her saying that you're going to pay her whatever you agreed if your house sells. 

She may work hard to help your house sell. She might not do much at all. There is a good chance her idea of "selling your house" is to convince you to keep lowering the price until it sells. Either way, you're going to pay her what you agreed to in the contract.

Asking us after you have already signed a contract can't change anything.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 28, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> ....There is a good chance her idea of "selling your house" is to convince you to keep lowering the price until it sells. .....



That is pretty much almost ALL REALTORS idea of a marketing_ PLAN_. 

Most realtors in my neck of the woods, like a 6 month contract with multiple hooks to extend it longer for anyone who they "claimed" to have talked to on the phone or shown the house to. Send her a certified letter CANCELLING the any possible or implied contract as you did not received your fully executed contract in a timely manor.

The sooner, the better. You needed to fully have read the contract before signing it.

I am not a lawyer - YOU might want to consult a lawyer - who is familiar with real estate practices in your area.


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## ronparise (Jun 28, 2013)

I am a licensed real estate agent in Florida.

generally speaking residential real estate agents fall in one of two categories; Sellers Agents and Buyers Agents.  Sellers agents (listing agents) bring the inventory, and buyers agents bring the buyers (and their money) 

I like to work with buyers. Not that I wont take a listing but I prefer working with buyers.... The big reason  is that sellers have unrealistic expectations as to what their listing agent can do for them.  The fact is listing agents can do very little. All they are really doing is stocking the shelves.

If Im going to bring buyers to consider your home  only two things are important and only two things are in your control; 
1) the price and 2) how the place looks. 

I cant sell a dump for a high price, and a house that looks nice and is priced right will sell itself

So a listing agent is exactly right when they advise you to make the place look perfect and to reduce the price, Thats all they can do.


By the way print advertising doesnt work any more, and open houses are a scam. They wont sell your property. Open houses are a tool to bring buyers in so that your agent can sell someone elses house to them


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## heathpack (Jun 28, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Open houses are a scam. They wont sell your property. Open houses are a tool to bring buyers in so that your agent can sell someone elses house to them



Really?

We've sold two houses.  One was sold at the open house which was the first day it was on the market (it was in a "hot" neighborhood and the realtors strategy was to get as many people in the house as possible so they'd all be afraid the other guy was going to buy it).  We got multiple offers and accepted the full price one.  The home selling thing was over in a day.

The other house had a open house scheduled for a Sunday but realtor wanted it listed on Friday- he wanted the threat of the house selling at the Open House looming over people's head for Friday/Sat showings.  This was a "normal" (ie not hot) neighborhood but a very cute house.  The house was sold to the first people who walked in on Friday (we bought it in exactly the same way- we were the first people to see it and snapped it up instantly).

I'm really surprised to hear about open houses being a scam.  They always seemed to be part of the strategy.  When we bought our current house, our realtor was always scheming to get us into places before the open house.  However we've never bought/sold a house in anything but a climate of bidding wars.

To answer the OP, we've always listed a home with a realtor after meeting with a few first and listening to their game plan, proposed list price, strategy etc.  the two we've sold homes with had a very clear plan which they executed exactly as they said they would.  It helped that they were both unique, desirable houses.  We did have them 110% spotless, freshly painted, fuly decorated, landscape perfect (whatever the realtor told us to do) by the time they hit the market.

H


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## Patri (Jun 28, 2013)

Why is this realtor the bad guy? 
Of course the house should be in perfect condition. It hurts for a stranger to suggest presentation techniques that may vary with what you thought made your house a home. But the point is to make it show well for a buyer. It won't be your home much longer.
You should not have to pay for marketing. Maybe she has a certain amount to spend per listing, and she wants to know which options you are most comfortable with. Have a nice talk with her. I bet everything is routine for the business.


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## ronparise (Jun 28, 2013)

heathpack said:


> Really?
> 
> We've sold two houses.  One was sold at the open house which was the first day it was on the market (it was in a "hot" neighborhood and the realtors strategy was to get as many people in the house as possible so they'd all be afraid the other guy was going to buy it).  We got multiple offers and accepted the full price one.  The home selling thing was over in a day.
> 
> ...



regarding open houses: I may be jaded by the market I work in. Open houses seem to a recreational option when its too cold for the beach, or tennis or golf.   Lots of lookers, few buyers


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## theo (Jun 28, 2013)

*BEYOND just surprised and in actual disbelief...*



heathpack said:


> <snip> I'm really surprised to hear about open houses being a scam. <snip>



Personally, I think that the above referenced "scam" statement made by the omniscient FL real estate agent is utter nonsense --- but maybe things are just somehow "different" in sunny (heat stroked?) Florida... 

I sold a family member's house a very few years ago; it was purchased by one of the very first people who attended the "open house" arranged by the realtors --- at very nearly full price. There had been no offers submitted at all during the several weeks of listing which had preceded the successful open house. 

Last week, a house on my own street was sold for above the listed price --- to one of the first parties attending the "open house" arranged by the realtors. That particular "open house" was held on one of the first active days of the MLS listing.

In short, I certainly fail to see any "scam" in either one of these two specific (and both highly successful) "open house" instances in which I have direct, first hand knowledge and personal experience.


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## chellej (Jun 28, 2013)

So marketing incentives she is talking about turn out to be things like offering the selling agent a bonus, offering to pay buyers closing costs etc....I thought the closing cost thing was something that went with negotiations not usually offered upfront.   

We are not living in the property and our 21 yo son is sort of looking after the place.  We have a separate apt with 2 window units....she wants us to leave them run so it is not stuffy......I said DS would turn them on before a showing...... Am I being unreasonable?


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## sail27bill (Jun 28, 2013)

I have bought and sold a couple of homes and each time I sold the contract stated exactly what the realtor's responsibilities entailed.  My first realtor was okay, not really marketing it hard but he did find a buyer fairly quickly so I was happy.  My second did an awesome job selling in a very down market (we were downsizing) with awesome pictures and calling other realtors telling them about our house.  Although our house was move in ready with high end finishes, the market was tough.  We had an open house that was very successful as one of the people who came bought the house.  We got close to asking as the number of people who showed up was considerable.  Our buyers had seen the house one week prior so when the saw the interest at the open house they jumped.

The worst part was that we had to keep the house immaculate until the Mortgage commitment was final in case the deal feel through and we had to relist quickly.  The plus side was that it made moving very easy.  Here in NY where I live the listing exclusivity is usually six months so I made sure to go with a big name realtor and pay a little extra but it worked out fine.  Check your contract and see what it states.  You just might have to hang in there.  Selling can be stressful but hopefully there will be a light at the end of the tunnel.

BTW-- I have no idea what marketing allowances mean.  The realtor paid for the pictures and everything else.  All she got from me was her commission on the day of closing.

Anita


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## sail27bill (Jun 28, 2013)

chellej--I negotiated on a few things after I received an offer and an inspection was done.  I fixed one thing, left a few items, but did not offer anything upfront in either case.  That happened during negotiations.  In terms of leaving ac's running, it might be expensive but honestly, I don't like odors and that might happen if the unit is not aired out properly.  People might be turned off by this.  The thing that I would be most concerned about is whether it is priced right.  Have you checked out comparable sales of homes in your area for the last six months?  Even though this is the realtor's job, I always checked to see if the price was adequate and would be acceptable to an appraiser.

Anita


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## Ann-Marie (Jun 28, 2013)

I am reading this thread with great interest.  We are in the process of getting our house ready to market.  We just painted the whole house except the two kids rooms that were in good condition.,.  All children have moved out already.  What I am not sure about is putting anything back on the walls.  I would like to hang a few paintings and some mirrors but my DH is afraid to make holes in the walls.  All of our furniture is in excellent condition except the den.  We have one end table that needs to be refinished.  If I remove it, there will be an open space and it will look weird.  I'm toying with what to do.  Buy a new table, or just leave it since it is the only piece of furniture that has taken a beating.  This has been so much work, but we are getting there.  Hopefully we can get it on the market in another month.  We still have to get some of the boxes that we have packed out of the dining room.  The problem is where to put them.  My realtor feels it is OK to load up the garage.  IDK, still thinking about that one.


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## CO skier (Jun 28, 2013)

ronparise said:


> By the way print advertising doesnt work any more, and open houses are a scam. They wont sell your property. Open houses are a tool to bring buyers in so that your agent can sell someone elses house to them



When we were looking for our first home (before the internet age), we obtained the MLS for our price range from our buyers agent and drove around to pre-screen homes for showings.  We spent 6-hours each day the first weekend driving past at least 50 homes without finding one where we wanted to see the inside.  A few weekends later while driving around, we were about to drive by yet another home where the curb appeal was just OK, but better than most we had been seeing.  Since there was an open house, we thought, "Why not look at the inside?"  (None of the other drive-bys had an open house).  We did not sign the papers that day, but after another few weeks of looking, we eventually did buy that home.  (The curb appeal increased dramatically after the landscaping was installed).

Open houses are a game of percentages.  Open houses (maybe even most) do not always lead to a sale, but they are definitely not a scam.  You only need to find one buyer; all the other Looky-Loos don't matter.

Print advertising in the form of the flyers available in front of your home works.  We sold that first home to cash buyers who picked-up a flyer and called the real estate office.  The home we purchased after the first sale recently sold to buyers whose first contact was picking-up a flyer in front of our home.  

My suggestion FWIW -- keep that flyer box filled with at least 6-10 flyers.  Nothing is more frustrating to potential buyers than an empty flyer box at a home that has some interest to them (sure, they could 'look it up online' but will they remember the address and go to the trouble?  Much better to give them something to hold in their hand -- it worked in our case, anyway, even in this age of the internet).  You, as the seller, will have to take responsibility for obtaining a supply of flyers from the agent and arranging to see that it is checked and stocked daily, especially during the first couple of weeks when all the neighbors are taking a flyer.  Real estate agents to do not have the time to check the flyer boxes daily, so those boxes can be empty for days or weeks if left to the agent.


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## tlwmkw (Jun 28, 2013)

Did they put it on the MLS system on the internet?  Around here that is key- everything is pre-screened via internet and then people only go look if they are interested.  It means the photos of the house are very important.  Some look like they are done by professionals for Architectural Digest after being extensively stage.

The open house seems to be a thing of the past around here too (not sure if scam is the right word but very few sales result from them)- it's all about private showings.  They still do Realtor open houses where the house is previewed by local Realtors (who sometimes bring clients) and sometimes houses sell that way too.  Lots of sellers only allow appointment only viewings and no open houses.  I guess it depends where you live.

tlwmkw


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 28, 2013)

I talked to a different realtor whose office I had not dealth with before - about 3 months ago.

Realtor came out to the EMPTY and freshly painted house. She just gushed and gushed about how wonderful the place was and updated with new kitchen, lighting, rugs, tile floor, new windows. As she had a good day (30 hours before coming to my house) to prepare for viewing this house and this was a development townhouse, I felt she should have had a RANGE of values and sales of that model to TELL ME what she was thinking as to a listing price AT THAT TIME!

Wrong --- gushing and wonderful words in her vocabulary turned out to be a listing price 7% LOWER than the lowest foreclosure on the close sales MLS listings. 3 days after I showed her the house. Plus, the wonderful photographer pictures would cost ME $900 upfront. 

I went back to the person who recommend her and BLASTED him.

Oh, she did say during her 75 minute tour of the property, this house should sell very quickly thru another agent in the office. People are just lining up for a clean house like this ....

PS She was very quick to point out, that banks were not approving any values higher than what had been sold before. So getting a contract for $5000 higher is a waste of time == bank won't finance it. This was HER JUSTIFICATION for giving me such a extremely LOW BALL listing offer. Plus, she said, I could hold out of multiple offers ==> HOW dumb did she think I was? Once her broker had an offering at my signed contracted listing price, I figured I would be either selling for that price or handing over a check for HIS FULL COMMISSION - with the issue being, he earned his commission and I agreed to SELL it at that price; changing my mind was not going to cost him money.


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## LUVourMarriotts (Jun 28, 2013)

I recently sold my house.  I had originally hired the agent I used to buy the house.  She posted to the MLS, took her own photos that were not that great and did a few open houses.  But, there are 2 MLS's in our area.  Our price, sq ft and other info was different on each MLS.  She didn't follow up on showings we had, etc.

We then were recommended to speak with a different agent.  She went through our house and told us what to put in storage, etc.  She hired a professional photographer on her dime.  She listed everything properly and fixed the issues that were on the MLS from the previous agent.  When we had showings, she was on top of the feedback loop.  Feedback is helpful, good or bad.

In the end, what I believe is most important is to have a good agent who will work to sell the home, has good connections in the area with other agents, etc.  But even more, the agency is the one that has all of the infrastructure in place to market your listing.  We used Houlihan Lawrence.  They are big on technology, so they use a single feed to populate about 40 different sites for listing info.  It's not all from the MLS, there are other streams to get the listing out on different sites.  That online presence is exactly what sold a friends house through them, as the buyer lived across the country.  This is also what helped us quite a bit, as people from all over came to our house for showings.


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## Maverick1963 (Jun 29, 2013)

I agree with tlwmkw and LUVourMarriotts.  The photos and the information on the internet are really important.  They are actually a sales agent.  It is better to check the photos of your property on the realtor board website.  I do not believe agents who do not care how the property and the interior look in photos.  Even if you do open house, you will have to pre-sell good image of your house beforehand.  Otherwise, you cannot expect prospects to show up.  If the photos are great, you may have to think about pricing.


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## ScoopKona (Jun 29, 2013)

theo said:


> Personally, I think that the above referenced "scam" statement made by the omniscient FL real estate agent is utter nonsense --- but maybe things are just somehow "different" in sunny (heat stroked?) Florida...



I wouldn't use the word "scam," but I agree with Ron that open houses are basically worthless. At least where I live they are. I also agree that open houses work best for Realtors -- it gives them a steady stream of buyers who might need an agent. Nothing more.

If the house is priced properly, it will sell itself. 

Sellers employ listing agents because they are afraid they might leave money on the table. If they would bother to learn the basics of their market, they could skip the 6% listing agent and either FSBO it or list with a discount "I'll get your house on the MLS" broker.

It has been my experience that people are better prepared and more informed about buying or selling a car than they are about buying or selling a house. They assume that because Realtors exist, they don't have to know ANYTHING about real estate. And yet it is for most people, the primary investment that they have.


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## ronparise (Jun 29, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> I wouldn't use the word "scam," but I agree with Ron that open houses are basically worthless. At least where I live they are. I also agree that open houses work best for Realtors -- it gives them a steady stream of buyers who might need an agent. Nothing more.
> 
> If the house is priced properly, it will sell itself.
> 
> ...



Just a point of clarification, if you go with an "Ill list your house for $100" broker to get your house on the mls, you will still want to offer the buyers broker a commission typical for the area. Where I work its 3%. A little more is better, a little less and it wont get shown.

ScoopLV is right, properly priced your home will sell itself.  Where a listing agent earns their money is with their pricing advice, because priced wrong it wont sell at all. And often times a listing agent will tell you your home is worth more than it is to get your listing.

A problem a lot of folks dont consider is that if your house is priced above the market, even if you find a buyer at your price, they wont be able to get it financed. And without financing there usually is no sale.


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## cgeidl (Jun 29, 2013)

*Open Houses are Mostly for agents.*

I have been a broker for 35 years withnseveral in residential. I have held open houses on our own home many times and never got an offer on our own home but always found buyers for one to three other homes. I have listed only one home which was sold to an open house buyer. 
What is extremely imortant in today's market are good pictures and virtual tours. We have a home listed in AZ and have the best agent for the area as she has professionl pictures and a web site used by other agents and comes up first when you google our community. We had one offer from the pictures which didn't work out.
This agent spents 50 to 60 hours a month on updating and improving her web site. She has a well thought out marketing plan. About three times more people come thru our home than other comparable homes due to the great online marketing.
We are now in CA and having a home built for move in August.
Hope you have better luck with your agent.Most homes sell from MLS but peple looking screen the pictures and info from MLS and pictures need to look professional and the agent needs to pay for this in my opinion.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 29, 2013)

Real estate agents love to double dip and love "must" situations == either ones they create or due to the buyer's or seller's need. Brokers with an ownership interest will do whatever is marginally legal to get a commission and the faster the better --- before either the buyer or seller "wakes up".

As either a seller or buyer, you are not getting "financial" advice or "unbaised" advice from either a real estate sales person or their broker. The advice given above (by prior posters on this thread) is to take time and research the market yourself or to hire an indepentant local real estate appraiser to evaluate your house and market.

Remember, a $10,000 price reduction on a house listing with a 6% commission schedule, is only $150 (CHUMP CHANGE) to EACH to the Listing Agent, the Listing Broker, the Selling Agent and the Selling Broker. And $5,000 in closing costs to the buyer at the settlement table, is NO REDUCTION in the commission to anybody but the seller. But it is $9,400 less that YOU the seller will see in your proceeds from the sale.

PS. My favorite counter-arguement I get from Real Estate sales people is: CARRYING COSTS. If you are living in the house, you have marginal carrying costs. You would have to pay for a roof over your head where ever. If they know you to have a deadline where you will be paying for 2 houses or your financial status is going to change, they will MAKE absolutely sure you are hung out to dry. They will NOT allocate advertising dollars unless you are under the gun and the listing still has 3+ months to run. So, if you are sweet talked into a higher listing value than YOU THINK, be really sure that value are correct. 

I feel, that the first 4-6 weeks your house is listed, is the sweet spot on the market. 

No, I am NOT a real estate agent nor have I ever been. I just over the years have dealth with those professionals.


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## camachinist (Jun 29, 2013)

> So marketing incentives she is talking about turn out to be things like offering the selling agent a bonus, offering to pay buyers closing costs etc....I thought the closing cost thing was something that went with negotiations not usually offered upfront.



Usually covered in writing in the listing agreement, such allowances are negotiable. As example, you may offer a defined 'allowance' at closing, essentially net to the buyer, and negotiate that the selling agent adjusts their commission to reflect the lower net from the sale versus gross selling price. 

What should you expect from your realtor? What is covered in writing in the listing agreement, augmented by the general reputation of the agent amongst their peers and customers. The more respected and more highly referred the agent is, the more likely a positive outcome. Personally, I've found 'agents open houses', where the gathering is strictly brokers and agents, along with the seller, to be a good barometer of where things may potentially go. 

As far as 'curb appeal' goes, it's critical to attracting a full-price retail offer, especially in a lukewarm to buyer's market. In our area, professional contractors and investors have made a business of bringing distressed and run-down homes to such perfectly staged condition, professionally marketing them with their own in-house brokerage services and staging them to the retail market. Resounding success. I took a lot of lessons away from viewing their properties and processes and applying them to staging my own rentals to attract high quality tenants. It works. 



> We have a separate apt with 2 window units....she wants us to leave them run so it is not stuffy......I said DS would turn them on before a showing...... Am I being unreasonable?



Compare the cost of power versus the benefit of a positive feeling in a full retail buyer. I can tell you, living in the 'desert' where it'll be near 110 today, one can hang meat in my rentals when they're on the market. When a qualified tenant walks in the door, I want them to feel that they could live there, today, no matter when they happen to stop by. No ambiguity. The cost of power, in the long run, is peanuts, and energy efficient properties (another tip to 'selling') are exceedingly stingy power users, so that cost is low. That's my experience.


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## bogey21 (Jun 29, 2013)

I sold my last house myself.  This was 3 years ago.  All I did was put a sign outside with the price on it and my phone number.  When someone agreed to buy it for close to my asking price we drove (together) to the title company about a mile away, signed a contract we pulled off the Internet, and later closed there.  The costs were minimal and we split them 50-50 except for the title insurance which the buyer paid for.  This was in Texas.  Maybe the rules are different in other places.

George

PS  I had previously decided that if I didn't sell my house in 6 months that I would explore hiring an auction company and having an auction.  Since my house sold I didn't have to contact an auction company so I'm not sure exactly how they work or what they cost.

PPS  The big hassle was the Buyer who had good credit getting a loan.  The lenders put them through all kinds of hoops that I thought were over kill.  The lender blamed them on the Government and new regulations.  Who knows?


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## ScoopKona (Jun 29, 2013)

Personally, I see real estate agents eventually going the way of travel agents. In the 1990s, before the Internet really took off, travel agents scoffed at the thought of being marginalized by a computer.

That's back when travel agents still entered gibberish into SABER in order to get a ticket from point A to point B. Then came "Easy Saber" and then finally the travel sites we all know and love. Here in Las Vegas, most of the travel agents cater to people who do not speak English and do not have access to the Internet. Everyone else uses Kayak.

There are still niche travel agents who do well in the age of Hotwire and Kayak. Round the world trips, yacht charter trips, fishing trips in the middle of nowhere -- that sort of travel. (But even then, the Internet is making inroads.)

It's the same thing with Realtors. The only reason we need them is because of the MLS. Once there is a viable public alternative to MLS, that's it for all but the most specialized agents. And that's why the NRA is shoveling money at Washington to keep the status quo.

At the end of the day, it's just a house. It's really no more difficult than buying or selling a car.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 29, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> Personally, I see real estate agents eventually going the way of travel agents. In the 1990s, before the Internet really took off, travel agents scoffed at the thought of being marginalized by a computer.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...



Fully agree with you. But there are no discount brokers around here. Used to be, the $595 listing broker 5+ years ago. But current brokers are NOT open after 5PM weekdays or even over the weekends. Brokers/owners do NOT want to pay for lights or utilties NOR have people for security sitting around an office alone. Phones go to voice mail. 

And everything seems to cost the owners MORE money - like the $900 photographic package was not an option to list your house. My $200K house would have been a 6% commission ($12,000 for $3000 per hand in the pie). Marketed on internet sites, thru the MLS realtor site, a sign in the front yard =>it seems to be more of a problem that MLS and the realtors' associations have with commission splits.

Think my next call will be to a Re-Max realtor office - where the broker recovers desk, office phone, office services & costs as their desk rental fee from the agents associated with the office. True, the broker might want me to pay $900 photos fee instead of them off their $3000 commission check ... but broker was paying the PRINT AD costs for years: How much was that per listing and I was never asked to pay those fees?

*Thanks to the several posters who commented that THEY did not pay for the listing (professional) photography services. *

I felt at the time ($900 was NOT a staging the house service) and being empty, just HOW HARD is it to light and photographic a house. Plus, how come the realtors office was not getting a "bulk" service price or an empty house price? Bet next bill would be thousands of dollars to STAGE an empty house....


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## Tia (Jun 29, 2013)

We bought our first house after finding it three blocks away from our rental in the Sunday paper open house listings. Odd how our realtor ,same company,  never showed us this house but trotted us all over looking at more expensive houses in other areas...


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## laurac260 (Jul 3, 2013)

You should expect your realtor to partner with you to sell your house.  If your house needs intense marketing to reach prospective buyers go with a brokerage that can provide that, especially if you live in an area that has corp relo traffic.


We've sold in hot markets in Florida, and depressed markets in Florida.  We've sold all over the country condos , houses etc.  

It really depends on a number of things...the market at the time of sale, what the banks are willing to do, is your home in a prime location, how many homes just like yours are you competing with, how are the schools, what are the taxes, hoa fees, are you in a prime relo area (corporate relos are still happening).  Those are all factors your agent should know cold, and those are factors you have no control of.  

What you can control is the condition of the house, cleanliness of house, yard, etc.  

I spent years working in hotels.  What I can tell you is, if the areas you CAN see are unkempt or in poor working order, the areas you CAN'T see are in worse shape.  Same applies typically with houses.  Unless you live in a white hot market, your home better hum or be prepared to get less than your asking price.

A picture on the wall that creates a nail hole after you painted to sell?  Do it.  No one turns a house down for a nail hole, and the picture adds eye appeal (providing its not gaudy ).

Getting the house in order, a plus.  Spending so much time to get the house in order you miss prime selling time (summer) might work against you in the long run.  

So much is variable.  We just bought a house in an area where you EXPECT to have to improve.  Our master bath is original to the house from the 60's. Most of my neighbors did the same.  We traded down in house to trade up in taxes , and we happily did so.  If we put the house on the market in 20 years it will still sell for top dollar with a 1960's bathroom.  Very few areas can support that.  The house we sold was 8 years old and sold quickly.  Houses in that area that are older than 15 years sit on the market for close to a year sometimes.


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## jlr10 (Jul 4, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> If they know you to have a deadline where you will be paying for 2 houses or your financial status is going to change, they will MAKE absolutely sure you are hung out to dry.



We found this to be true when we were trying to sell our townhome because we were in escrow on a single family home. The buyers agent and our agent sat at our kitchen table to negotiate, with us there.  The buyer's agent presented the written offer stating that he knew the offer was a poor one and was drastically underpriced for our unit, but that he had to offer it, and had already told his buyer that the price was too low and would only be considered as a starting point for negotiations.  Our agent's response was "You should take it. You already bought a home and need to sell this one fast." -which wasn't true we had a six month window to sell it. -Then he proceeded to tell the buyer's agent we would happily throw in the new washer and dryer if that would close the deal, when I responded that was not true, the response was "You have to sell this quick!"  He didn't care that it wasn't a great deal for us, only that he could get it sold quick.  When escrow closed he never told us.  I called him to ask when it was going to close and he was snotty and told me it had closed several days ago and if I wanted to get our payment for the house I could come and pick it up, because he was busy and going out of town and didn't have the time to deal with me.  

Our broker never did a open house to the public.  But once he finally did the broker's open house we had several showings from realtors who had seen the unit then.  I sold within 3 weeks to the first buyer, and 4 days after the brokers open house.  In hindsight we probably could have gotten more, but feel our broker pushed us into a position where we were left with no room to negotiate. :annoyed:


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## ampaholic (Jul 4, 2013)

I am late to this thread - but as a retired Real Estate Broker with over 500 home sales and former Director of the Association of Realtors I think I should share some of what I know to my fellow TUGGERS.

1. Open Houses are a tool - if properly used they can be effective at stirring interest in ANY home _*if*_ the price is right.
2. Where a list agent earns their commission is pricing advice, presentation _*and *_negotiations (a very big part in soft markets).
3. "20% of the agents in a market do 80% of the work" doesn't mean what you think it does.

I.E. The pool of agents is full of people coming into the business and going out of the business - you want an agent who is firmly *in* the business! Ask for references from past clients.

4. Any house will sell if you price it low enough.  the trick of a good agent is to get top dollar and do it quick:

Over the years I maintained about a 75% 1st listing success rate (75% sold during the first 90 day listing - 25% did not) - I was usually able to convince owners to try me for another 90 days rather than see them go with someone else - _*because I worked hard to market their home even when it wasn't going well.*_

The flip side is - if you are not happy with the effort your agent is putting out  - change agents when your listing expires (or if they will cancel it).

5. I always let an unhappy owner cancel a listing if they wanted. I was OK with that because I usually had 8 or 10 at a time and didn't want the grief of being called all the time by a sad or mad owner. Heck I even fired a few owners back in the day. - IF you want out - ask for a cancellation.

6. Make sure your agent has a good reputation of working with other agents in the market (ask them) - a few in each market are so full of Hubris that other agents simply won't let their buyers near them (_*or *_their houses). 

Good luck


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## lizap (Jul 4, 2013)

You sound like a great agent!  I agree there is a lot an agent can do other than list a house on MLS.  I have sold 2 houses, and I will NEVER have an agent again that ONLY lists on MLS.  There will be an understanding upfront of what the agent will do (in writing).  




ampaholic said:


> I am late to this thread - but as a retired Real Estate Broker with over 500 home sales and former Director of the Association of Realtors I think I should share some of what I know to my fellow TUGGERS.
> 
> 1. Open Houses are a tool - if properly used they can be effective at stirring interest in ANY home _*if*_ the price is right.
> 2. Where a list agent earns their commission is pricing advice, presentation _*and *_negotiations (a very big part in soft markets).
> ...


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## ottawasquaw (Jul 4, 2013)

Rick,
All good points. I'd like to add that Open Houses really vary by market. Many folks have commented where they have had success with them, but in the last two markets I've worked, they are passe. Still, I know there are areas where they are effective.
As an agent, I am extremely reluctant to ask my seller to drop their price. It is an agent's job to provide a CMA and show that the listing is priced correctly.
Yes, with the introduction of the internet, there was a belief that real estate agents would go the way of travel agents. However, buying a house is much more complicated than a car or a vacation. There are still lots of legal issues which one can get tripped up on, especially as a seller. 
So, your agent should be correctly pricing your home. You should probably interview 3 agents. I did this recently for a friend who was selling a home out of state.  Your agent should properly expose your home to the market. Your agent should protect your interests as a client. There's a lot of behind the scenes work that gets done to make a smooth closing.
I'm in a slow market. I show a lot of empty homes. Fresh paint without nail holes is preferable. Access to the property is helpful! Not just clean and ready to show but the ability to show the home on the fly can be a big help!
Having the a/c on in the summer or the heat on in the winter is probably preferable. Otherwise, a prospective buyer's imagination tends to think the home might be poorly insulated and difficult to maintain a comfortable temperature. Another problem is that prospects will run out of a listing without fully looking at it if they are uncomfortable in any way - smells, temperatures, animals - even if they are offended by your personal items. The longer I can keep a buyer in a home, the better chance I have of selling it.
Hope this helps and good luck to everyone!


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## ampaholic (Jul 4, 2013)

Absolutely - Opens are just one tool in the toolkit, and may be ineffective in certain markets - they don't fit every nut they are tried on.

I still have my reference book with dozens of good to great references my favorite reads (partially):



> I know for a fact Rick saved me twice the amount of his commission during negotiations. I was amazed how quickly he got the buyer's agent working to raise the buyers original offer up to our asking price. We ended up within one thousand dollars of our asking price in a pretty dull market, hooray!



I got this reference by not selling out my client for a quick commission but by working hard to get the original 12% gap between ask and offer down to less than 1/2 of one percent.

My point is - marketing is not all the agent does for you.

The buyer came from an open house BTW (they had come without their agent)


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## bogey21 (Jul 5, 2013)

Why use a Realtor?  Every house I ever sold (there were only three) I sold myself with a sign out front.  Sure, maybe I got a little less but I don't think it was ever more than 6% (Realtor"s commission) less.  6% of $200,000 is a lot of money.  For what?  Title companies were always a breeze to work with as far as closing.

George


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## bogey21 (Jul 5, 2013)

ottawasquaw said:


> There are still lots of legal issues which one can get tripped up on, especially as a seller.



Really?  I never experienced any.

George


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## ampaholic (Jul 5, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> Why use a Realtor?  Every house I ever sold (there were only three) I sold myself with a sign out front.  Sure, maybe I got a little less but I don't think it was ever more than 6% (Realtor"s commission) less.  6% of $200,000 is a lot of money.  For what?  Title companies were always a breeze to work with as far as closing.
> 
> George



Some people don't feel comfortable doing their own dentistry either, George.

I am a very experienced home seller and I would *always* use an agent if I were to sell a home - but then I know the secret.

I will admit I do buy and sell my own timeshares without an agent - but I want one for my home if I sell - because I know the secret.

A hint of the secret is in my sig statement


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## ScoopKona (Jul 5, 2013)

ampaholic said:


> Some people don't feel comfortable doing their own dentistry either, George.



And snide comments like this is why Realtors "enjoy" the same kind of consumer confidence as timeshare salesmen and telemarketers. 

I feel absolutely confident doing my own real estate transactions. It's not rocket science. Any reasonably-bright high school student could pass the real estate test. (Agreed, they need experience after that. But so do a LOT of agents in the business, too. Let's not pretend that getting the license translates into instant competence. Knowing the definitions of steering, red-lining and a mansard roof isn't helpful in 99.9999% of all real estate transactions.)

Point this out, and get replies such as, "Only a fool represents himself" and "Some people don't feel comfortable doing their own open-heart surgery."

Travel agents were once just as smug about the necessity of their jobs. "What are you going to do, book your OWN airline tickets? HA! Good luck with that!"


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## ottawasquaw (Jul 5, 2013)

If you can do it yourself, great! I agree that lots of people in certain markets and price range do.

There are plenty of things I do myself but I don't imagine that my own personal competence will eliminate an industry.

Real estate laws vary from state to state. I can go online and get an insurance license in all 50 states with my credit card (why are you not proposing the elimination of that industry?) but I can't do that with my real estate license.

The original poster doesn't live in the home and that's quite common these days. A lot of my business is with estates and investors, but my greatest joy is working directly with the owner occupant. And, not all homes are $200k, so the commissions are not always as big as you imagine.

People list their homes to expose them to more buyers. Many buyers are reluctant to work directly with sellers. Then there are security issues. Most thefts occur during Open Houses - something to keep in mind if one is being held in your home.


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## ampaholic (Jul 5, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> And snide comments like this is why Realtors "enjoy" the same kind of consumer confidence as timeshare salesmen and telemarketers.



I've got a book with over 50 Good references from former clients - do you? I am quite happy with my reputation as I am quite happy with any FSBO selling their own home if they want to.

What you and George don't seem to "get" is that lots of people don't like selling their own home for a myriad of reasons - most of which have nothing to do with the "cost" - since most realize that the "cost" of the agent is borne by the buyer and they don't like doing all that work for free.

If you and George enjoy the work more power to you, but your comments on THIS particular thread are off topic.



ScoopLV said:


> I feel absolutely confident doing my own real estate transactions.



Yes, you seem like a supremely confident person - what with the way you throw around words like snide to knock others about - perhaps you should do like Tony Robbins and sell THAT as well. 

FYI - my expression that some (of course not YOU) don't like to do their own dentistry either is simply a quick and evocative way to communicate how many of my former clients felt - not a suggestion that you would ever feel that way.

PS - why don't you use some of that big boy confidence up and join TUG.


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## bogey21 (Jul 6, 2013)

What is ironic about this is that yes, I sold my last 3 houses by myself but a number of years ago when I decided I wanted out of 3 TS Weeks on HHI (Marriott Harbour Club, Marriott Heritage Club and Village at Palmetto Dunes) I hired a local Realtor (name Dave Graham) to sell them for me.  He was there.  I wasn't, and he did a great job.  I guess this just proves one has to be flexible depending on the circumstances.

George


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## Kal (Jul 6, 2013)

ampaholic said:


> Some people don't feel comfortable doing their own dentistry either, George.
> 
> I am a very experienced home seller and I would *always* use an agent if I were to sell a home - but then I know the secret.
> 
> ...


 
I have bought and sold a home and prepared all the closing documents myself. It's not rocket science. However, in the last few years I relied entirely on professional RE Agents. In one case the agent made an error on a closing item and had to eat the cost herself. In another case the agent really was on top of the market, did a magnificent job of staging the property and created a bidding war which resulted in a significantly higher return to me than I could have done by "doing my own dental work" i.e. an amateur.

Today, I'm selling another residence in a different state. There's no way I could apply my amateur credentials in completing that transaction. I am using a top notch agent and we close in 30 days.

Like others here, I've bought, sold and closed time share resale properties, but that's a piece of cake.


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## ScoopKona (Jul 6, 2013)

ampaholic said:


> What you and George don't seem to "get" is that lots of people don't like selling their own home for a myriad of reasons - most of which have nothing to do with the "cost" - since most realize that the "cost" of the agent is borne by the buyer and they don't like doing all that work for free.




Agents ALWAYS cost money. Always. They cost both the buyer and the seller. The buyer, of course, is the person writing the big check. So yes, the buyer pays the 6%. 

But the seller almost always has to take a cut in price to account for half of that percentage. Otherwise, it would be like listing for 6% too much for the market.

I've held a real estate license for more than a decade. I used it for my own transactions. For the past few years, I've had my license on ice with the division. It's just as easy to purchase real estate without a license, DIY-style, as it is to go through the bother of joining the Realtor board and going through all the continuing education. I just call the listing agent and swing a deal. 

It isn't rocket science. And as more and more people learn that DIY real estate is no big thing, Realtors will become more and more like travel agents.


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## ampaholic (Jul 6, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> Agents ALWAYS cost money. Always. They cost both the buyer and the seller. The buyer, of course, is the person writing the big check. So yes, the buyer pays the 6%.
> 
> But the seller almost always has to take a cut in price to account for half of that percentage. Otherwise, it would be like listing for 6% too much for the market.
> 
> ...



Your cognitive dissonance is showing Scoop - you are trying to adjust your perceptions to fit your beliefs - there will always be Real Estate agents. Your effort to equate them with Travel Agents is strained - it fails to account for the fact that there are plenty of travel agents doing quite well without YOU. 

I am sure you are not so full of hubris to think that just because YOU don't use them they rolled up and died.

You also fail to account for the fact that the "cost" of the agent is already accounted for in the Real Estate market.

Since 96% to 98% of the homes on the market are already priced _*with the commission figured in*_ - when you price your home *competitively* with them you are also including in YOUR price the commission amount. See - if they were all 6% less - so would you have to be - to remain competitive that is.

In my experience buyers seem to "know" that a FSBO is really thinking they can get that built in commission amount into their own pocket - out of the buyers pocket.

The buyers usually don't (as a species) like giving that commission amount to an owner - so they tend to "discount" the FSBO by that much or more. This is one reason FSBO's tend to hang on the market for a long time, well that and the fact that they are not listed in the MLS. 

Of course since no two homes are exactly alike - making it impossible to do a scientific study of this - we will just have to rely on our observations, um I mean perceptions.


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## Kal (Jul 6, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> Agents ALWAYS cost money. Always...


 
I learned long ago....Never say NEVER, never say ALWAYS.


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## ScoopKona (Jul 6, 2013)

ampaholic said:


> 1) Your effort to equate them with Travel Agents is strained - it fails to account for the fact that there are plenty of travel agents doing quite well without YOU.
> 
> 2) You also fail to account for the fact that the "cost" of the agent is already accounted for in the Real Estate market.
> 
> ...



[Numbers added to quote for clarity.]

1) Read this thread. I already mentioned that niche travel agents are doing quite well. But the days of NEEDING them to purchase airline tickets are long gone. I have friends who were travel agents in the 1990s when the Internet started taking off. They had the same hubris as real estate agents do today. "We've always been around," "People will always need our services," "People don't WANT to do their own travel planning." As recently as 15 years ago, there was a travel agency in nearly every strip mall in North America. Now? Not so much.

And when there is a viable alternative to the MLS, it's going to be the same thing for Realtors. Let's face it, too many people have had rotten experiences with Realtors. Just read this thread for examples.

2) I don't fail to account for it. The best transactions are the ones that don't involve any realtors at all. All Realtors do is jack up the price of the house. They do not add 6% of value to the transaction. 

3) Another Realtor exaggeration. (Like the one that buyer's agents always use, "We don't cost the buyer ANYTHING!") The market will work just fine without them. Supply and demand will take care of pricing.

4) FSBOs languish on the market because FSBO sellers are OFTEN too emotionally attached to their property to price it correctly. They went the FSBO route because they didn't want to listen to a Realtor's advice on where to set the list price. If they priced their house correctly, it would sell just fine.



It's only a matter of time. The internet is going to break the broker/agent business model as surely as it broke newspaper classified advertising and travel agencies. At the end of the day, Real Estate is basically an information-based business. And the internet excels at ruining information-based businesses. Every buyer and seller who goes the DIY route and lives to tell the tale is another nail in the coffin.

EDIT: PS -- And Kal: Deserts are always dry, fires are always hot, and agents ALWAYS add to the cost of the transaction. Always.


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## Kal (Jul 6, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> [Numbers added to quote for clarity.]
> PS -- And Kal: Deserts are always dry... Always.


 

Obviously you have not had:

Lemon Souffle with Grand Marnier sauce
Cream Brulee
Crepe Suzette
Vanilla and Lime Flan
Chocolate Lava Cake
Bread Pudding with Bourbon Sauce
Rice Pudding with Caramel Sauce
Strawberries with 25 year Balsamic Vinegar
Always not dry (unless I totally change my way of preparation).


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## ampaholic (Jul 6, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> [Numbers added to quote for clarity.]
> 
> 1) Read this thread. I already mentioned that niche travel agents are doing quite well. But the days of NEEDING them to purchase airline tickets are long gone. I have friends who were travel agents in the 1990s when the Internet started taking off. They had the same hubris as real estate agents do today. "We've always been around," "People will always need our services," "People don't WANT to do their own travel planning." As recently as 15 years ago, there was a travel agency in nearly every strip mall in North America. Now? Not so much.
> 
> ...



1) I purchased my own air fare as long ago as 1969 - but I didn't try to set up an entire itinerary by myself - two different things. I will be quite impressed if you make your dream of a trip to the Taj Mahal a reality without the services of a member of NACTA - just sayin'

2) Baloney - this is just your belief, not any kind of fact - many believe differently and have experiences to back up their beliefs. It is true hubris thinking that just because YOU believe it - it is true.

Why don't you start your own thread "Why you don't need a Real Estate Agent" instead of trying over and over to hijack this one?

3) *I'm really not sure why you would call baloney on such an obvious fact.* So your market has over 2% to 4% FSBO's? Or you think all those _*other*_ sellers listed with agents are _*not*_ thinking they will need to sign over a commission to the listing agent and didn't figure that in their pricing? You never price your FSBO competitively?
What exactly do you mean - an exaggeration?

4) Wow, now you even look down your nose at other FSBO's - "they are not sharp enough to capitalize on an agent's good will - and (mis)use an agent for a CMA to price their house right".

5) More hubris - your perceptions _*are*_ reality - I know better to argue the unknown (future) with someone who already knows how it will play out, so you are right and I am not worthy, I bow to your crystal ball.  - could you PM me the next Power Ball numbers please?


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## ampaholic (Jul 6, 2013)

Kal said:


> Obviously you have not had:
> 
> Lemon Souffle with Grand Marnier sauce
> Cream Brulee
> ...



:rofl::hysterical::hysterical:

And one time in Explorers a leader got his deserts by being thrown in the lake!


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## Luanne (Jul 6, 2013)

Kal said:


> Obviously you have not had:
> 
> Lemon Souffle with Grand Marnier sauce
> Cream Brulee
> ...



Deserts are dry.

Desserts maybe not.


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## ScoopKona (Jul 6, 2013)

ampaholic said:


> I will be quite impressed if you make your dream of a trip to the Taj Mahal a reality without the services of a member of NACTA - just sayin'



Why on Earth would I need a travel agent for a mundane trip like India? Get visa, buy airline ticket, book accommodation, buy Lonely Planet guide, buy rail tickets, done. It's not rocket science. I haven't needed a travel agent since EasySabre came out. 

And yes, the writing is on the wall for the broker/agent business model of real estate. You don't need a crystal ball to see it. Six percent on the purchase of a house is a LOT of money for most people. Once people learn they can skip the entire six-percent bit, they'll jump on it. 

Eventually, some start-up will create an alternative to the MLS -- and it will be the real estate equivalent of EasySabre. There are plenty of buyers and sellers who do not like dealing with Realtors. Just like there are plenty of car buyers who do not like dealing with car dealerships and salespeople. The internet has already marginalized the travel agent and the newspaper classified ad. It is currently marginalizing the car salesperson and just about everything in the entertainment industry. It will eventually marginalize the real estate agent.

And the reason it WILL happen is because employing real estate agents is like paying a voluntary 6% tax on the transaction. Once there are viable alternatives, people will flock to them.

As for Powerball numbers, the lottery is a voluntary tax on people who are bad at math. They should change their slogan to, "You can't lose if you don't play."


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## ampaholic (Jul 6, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> ...
> 
> Eventually, some start-up will create an alternative to the MLS -- and it will be the *real estate equivalent of EasySabre.* There are plenty of buyers and sellers who do not like dealing with Realtors. Just like there are plenty of car buyers who do not like dealing with car dealerships and salespeople. The internet has already marginalized the travel agent and the newspaper classified ad. It is currently marginalizing the car salesperson and just about everything in the entertainment industry. It will eventually marginalize the real estate agent....



EasySabre? EasySabre? -- EasySabre is dead, Hahaha - bad anaolgy.

Alternative to the MLS - will that be before or after these 19 inventions we won't ever get to see?


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## ScoopKona (Jul 6, 2013)

ampaholic said:


> EasySabre? EasySabre? -- EasySabre is dead, Hahaha - bad anaolgy.
> 
> Alternative to the MLS - will that be before or after these 19 inventions we won't ever get to see?



You're really just not getting it. Of course Easy Sabre is dead. It was a horrible, clunky, non-intuitive interface. But it was an alternative to travel agents. And people flocked to it because they could do their own travel planning -- when they wanted, doing the route they wanted, and without having to deal with an agent. It was the first step in a long road. Now we're using Kayak and other websites. None of those would exist without Easy Sabre. And every step of the way, travel agents said it wouldn't work. Until people quit visiting them for airline tickets, that is.

Buy a car without a dealership? Same thing. Before the internet, it was basically impossible. Now, smart buyers look up the invoice price and make their deal online. The last car we bought, we were in the dealership for 20 minutes to sign paperwork. That's that. 

And eventually, it will happen with real estate. Why? The current model works GREAT for the agents, and not at all great for the clients. As I said earlier -- agents do not add 6% of _value_ for their 6%. Real estate agents will say, "Well, I have to make a living."

No, actually, they don't have to make a living. They can do something else instead -- just like most travel agents. Or, they can find a way to provide more value for their commission -- just like the niche travel agents who are still in business.


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## ampaholic (Jul 6, 2013)

Oh, I get it alright - you really do think you are going to invent a replacement for the MLS - if you just "will" it so long enough.

I am pretty sure this is wishful thinking on your part - and no matter how much you want it - it is no more likely than are anti-grav skateboards.

This is basically what an MLS does:



> MLS is a sharing of comprehensive home information among real estate professionals. Listings brokers enter the data about a home for sale and offer to share the commission with a broker who brings a buyer. It's an online software that contains all the specifics about a home, from the address, age, square footage, number of bedrooms, baths, upgrades and schools districts to types of financing the seller will consider, and more. There is generally at least one to a dozen photographs of the home, plus a link to a virtual tour, if one exists.



What does your "thingie" do - run a craigslist ad? 

And FYI - there are still people who buy their new cars from a well respected local dealer - without ever looking online. 

And nobody I know flocked to Saber - easy or otherwise.


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## ScoopKona (Jul 6, 2013)

ampaholic said:


> Oh, I get it alright - you really do think you are going to invent a replacement for the MLS - if you just "will" it so long enough.
> 
> I am pretty sure this is wishful thinking on your part - and no matter how much you want it - it is no more likely than are anti-grav skateboards.
> 
> ...



1) Eventually, an alternative to MLS will sprout up. It's inevitable. There is a lot of money to be made. Someone will do it. 

2) Yes, there are people who buy cars from the dealer and never look online. They pay too much. There are people who buy timeshares from developers, too. Doesn't make it a smart move. There are people who use real estate agents instead of learning about the market. They pay too much. 

3) Lots of people flocked to Easy Saber -- back when it was the ONLY alternative. Once AOL included Easy Saber in their network, that was basically it for travel agents. That was the tipping point. There were hundreds of thousands of travel agencies before. Perhaps one out of 50 survived the internet.


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## ampaholic (Jul 6, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> 1) Eventually, an alternative to MLS will sprout up. It's inevitable. There is a *lot of money to be made*. Someone will do it.
> 
> 2) Yes, there are people who buy cars from the dealer and never look online. They pay too much. There are people who buy timeshares from developers, too. Doesn't make it a smart move. There are people who use real estate agents instead of learning about the market. They pay too much.
> 
> 3) Lots of people flocked to Easy Saber -- back when it was the ONLY alternative. Once AOL included Easy Saber in their network, that was basically it for travel agents. That was the tipping point. There were *hundreds of thousands of travel agencies before*. Perhaps one out of 50 survived the internet.



1) Ahh, there it is - your faulty thinking, when you say there is a lot of money to be made you mean by "competing" with the MLS and just "naturally" replacing it - since it will cost so much less.

This is typical FSBO think - if it *costs so much less* - then where is the *lot of money to be made*?

You can't friggin have *BOTH* "Cost's way Less / Lot's to be made" - now can you?

2) And apparently you look down your nose at all of them? 

3) I think you need to lay off the hallucinogens a bit - there have never ever ever ever been *hundreds of thousands of travel agencies before*. At the industry peak (before 9/11) there were "maybe" 40,000 in the US tops.

A treatise on the demise of Travel Agents - to wise you up:



> She also overlooked significant developments that have reshaped the travel agent industry, leaving its members, and the profession, stronger than ever.
> 
> Today, the everyday stories and successes of travel agents prove that they are far from the endangered list.


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## laurac260 (Jul 8, 2013)

Only on TUG can a harmless question about realtors turn into a pissing contest.

Me, I'm still cracking up about dry des(s)erts!


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## ampaholic (Jul 13, 2013)

laurac260 said:


> Only on TUG can a harmless question about realtors turn into a pissing contest.
> 
> Me, I'm still cracking up about dry des(s)erts!



You are wise Grasshopper.

What you can expect from your "Listing" Realtor(R) is: To give your for sale home it's *best chance* to sell in the way you want it to - as it enters the market.

There are many tools that can be used to achieve this.

Your Listing Agent should also each day make an effort to better your homes chances to achieve the results you want. Only the client can judge the agents effort level.

End of transmission.


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## ScoopKona (Jul 14, 2013)

ampaholic said:


> You are wise Grasshopper.
> 
> What you can expect from your "Listing" Realtor(R) is: To give your for sale home it's *best chance* to sell in the way you want it to - as it enters the market.
> 
> ...



Hogwash. The house sells the house. Not the Realtor. Not the seller. Not the open house or the balloons outside or the signs on the side of the road or even the advertisement in the Homes for Sale magazine at the supermarket.

If I place a rental property for sale in my area at $100K, $80/sqft, it will sell in a matter of days. If I raise the price it will take longer -- until it reaches the point where it is so overpriced that nobody will buy it at all. If I lower the price it will sell quicker, but I leave more and more money on the table as the price falls.

And no Realtor on earth can change the above metric. The world's best Realtor cannot move a ridiculously overpriced house. The world's worst Realtor can sell a stupidly underpriced house in a matter of hours. 

Successful Realtors are great at networking. They are not _necessarily_ great at buying and selling houses. And frankly, any reasonably bright person can learn how to buy or sell a house. It's not rocket science. And the savings can be significant.


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## ampaholic (Jul 14, 2013)

Cognitive dissonance: a perceived difference between beliefs and reality. Lacking alignment, it is the mind's nature to adjust either perceptions or beliefs to resolve it.


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## Kal (Jul 14, 2013)

The same concept should apply to the medical profession.  Raise the price and get fewer patients.  Lower the price and the waiting room will be standing room only.  A ridiculously overpriced Specialist from Johns Hopkings or the Mayo Clinic will surely starve.  Hmmm, I wonder if "quality of service, years of experience or a book full of potential clients" has anything to do with it??   Nah.

I'm reading a Kindle book now on doing my own dental work.  First, pick up a good drill and some little picks at Home Depot.  It's not rocket science for a reasonably bright person. And the savings can be significant.


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## ampaholic (Jul 14, 2013)

Kal said:


> The same concept should apply to the medical profession.  Raise the price and get fewer patients.  Lower the price and the waiting room will be standing room only.  A ridiculously overpriced Specialist from Johns Hopkings or the Mayo Clinic will surely starve.  Hmmm, I wonder if "quality of service, years of experience or a book full of potential clients" has anything to do with it??   Nah.
> 
> I'm reading a Kindle book now on doing my own dental work.  First, pick up a good drill and some little picks at Home Depot.  It's not rocket science for a reasonably bright person. And the savings can be significant.



Elegant way of putting it...

The point ScoopLV misses (over and over) is that: irregardless of HIS opinion of Realtors(R) they are the only people with an MLS.

Without an MLS - a for sale home is hamstrung and it simply *WILL NOT BE SEEN* by all (or even most of) the buyers in a particular market. It *WILL NOT* get it's best possible market experience without the MLS.

While ScoopLV wants there to be an alternative to the MLS - *THERE IS NONE* - a Craig's List ad simply is not the same.

Just as I want there to be an alternative to driving a fuel drinking box to work every day - there is none - staying home and not getting a paycheck is just not the same.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 14, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> ... The world's best Realtor cannot move a ridiculously overpriced house. The world's worst Realtor can sell a stupidly underpriced house in a matter of hours.
> 
> Successful Realtors are great at networking. They are not _necessarily_ great at buying and selling houses. And frankly, any reasonably bright person can learn how to buy or sell a house. It's not rocket science. And the savings can be significant.



My problem with MANY real estate salespersons who LIST houses, tend to be personality people who can connect to the current owner into signing the LISTING AGREEMENT.  The majority of people who SELL houses tend to be people who connect with the persons MOST LIKELY to sign a PURCHASE OFFER after qualifying there financial ability to buy THAT HOUSE.

Then there is the BROKERS - who are suppose to be managing their licensed real estate agents. Let me tell you, BROKERS manage THEIR BANK ACCOUNTS and government requirements. Did the broker make sure their licensed agents are using all the right forms, saying the "proper" words, not "steering" people into or out of neighborhoods, disclosing all the REQUIRED issues by NOT needing to know too much about the HOUSE, neighborhood, school profiles or performances but to convince the buyer to NOT HIRE people who will tell them the REAL or MAYBE IMAGINE issues that would impede a sale. 

So a successful LISTING AGENT is personality. The LISTING BROKER has to spend TIME and MONEY to market a property.

The successful SELLING AGENT is very quiet and almost dumb about WHAT they are selling. The Selling Broker makes sure the Home Inspection service has insurance and offers at LEAST 2 such companies with their brochure in his office. And has to get agents who just meet people at houses EVERY weekend and many evenings during the week.

Just MHO ---


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 14, 2013)

ampaholic said:


> Elegant way of putting it...
> 
> ...Without an MLS - a for sale home is hamstrung and it simply *WILL NOT BE SEEN* by all (or even most of) the buyers in a particular market. It *WILL NOT* get it's best possible market experience without the MLS.
> 
> While ScoopLV wants there to be an alternative to the MLS - *THERE IS NONE* - a Craig's List ad simply is not the same.



Rick - this is all too true. The print medium, like the local DAILY newspaper, is almost defunct! The computer search engines favor the HIT RATIOs for the trademark terms like realtor. The local realtor's and MLS free handout books, is called "Homes". 

And ask an experience real estate salesperson who they like to work for - it is the HOME OWNER who MUST sell. All they say to that home owner is, YOU need to LOWER you asking price! And the broker loves to NOT spend any money on advertising and backs up the LOWER the price mantra --- as they lose ONLY 3 cents of every $1 the price goes DOWN by (that is $30 for every $970 the owner loses)  -- many times OFF the PRICE the LISTING AGENT and BROKER justified 30 days earlier. Plus, as the LISTING OWNERS are moving away, there is less verbal backlash of HATE & DISCONTENT with future customers.


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## ampaholic (Jul 14, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> ...
> And ask an experience real estate salesperson who they like to work for - it is the HOME OWNER who MUST sell. All they say to that home owner is, YOU need to LOWER you asking price! And the broker loves to NOT spend any money on advertising and backs up the LOWER the price mantra --- as they lose ONLY 3 cents of every $1 the price goes DOWN by (that is $30 for every $970 the owner loses)  -- many times OFF the PRICE the LISTING AGENT and BROKER justified 30 days earlier. Plus, as the LISTING OWNERS are moving away, there is less verbal backlash of HATE & DISCONTENT with future customers.



Selling a home can be many things, some sales get pretty ugly, but many go quite well - perhaps (I like to think) I had something to do with the sales I managed going generally pretty well. 

Do all List agents make all their sales go well - no, but deciding to forgo a list agent on the chance they will not be able or willing to make the sale go well - is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The sale of a home is often one of the most emotional times in the family's existence and the list agent often has to manage emotions, expectations and perceptions as wrong headed as ScoopLV's are.


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## flexible (Jul 14, 2013)

Very interesting and helpful thread.


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## PearlCity (Jul 14, 2013)

My husband is an agent part time with his family's company. My advice to the op is,read your contract. I don't think my husband uses a contract as we live in a community where reputation is everything. They cover all advertising costs and staging if required, and do open houses as necessasary, though my brother in law says like Ron, that they aren't needed in most cases. However I live in a location where prices are high so even a condo transaction, my husband will net some cash in the end. I have seen him help clients buy and just to make the contract close, he gave up so much of his commission he got nothing. There is a lot going on behind the scenes that, if you have a good agent, you the buyer or seller never sees. Issues with lenders, scumbag buyer or sellers agents, etc, it's not as,simple as listing in the,MLS. 

Do you need an agent? Not always. It's up to the,seller. I bought my first place through my now brother in law, but is was a for sale by owner. He found it from an open house and took me. 

To the op good luck. If you do break your contract, interview agents, get references from friends, make sure you are going with someone reputable. It will make your life and transaction easier.


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## ScoopKona (Jul 14, 2013)

ampaholic said:


> Elegant way of putting it...
> 
> The point ScoopLV misses (over and over) is that: irregardless of HIS opinion of Realtors(R) they are the only people with an MLS.
> 
> ...




I have NEVER, EVER said that there is a viable alternative to MLS. Only that someday there will be. It is inevitable. Fact facts, there are a lot of people who do not like dealing with Realtors. Just like there are a lot of people who do not like dealing with timeshare salesmen, car salesmen, and door-to-door missionaries. 

You might think your profession is great and enjoys a high level of customer satisfaction. The truth is that there are an awful lot of people who don't think Realtors are worth the percentage they charge. And for every "sale went smooth because of me" anecdote you wish to post, I can find a "sale was a nightmare because of the incompetent commission wh*** who listed my house" anecdote to counter.

There is no alternative to MLS. And the NRA is shoveling money at congress to keep it that way. But for the same reason that the Internet killed classified advertising in newspapers, and is currently killing car dealership sales, it will kill real estate agency as we know it.

Incidentally, I drive to work in a truck that does not use gasoline. It costs less in energy, and in overall operating cost. There are alternatives.


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## ondeadlin (Jul 14, 2013)

My realtor has helped me buy or sell three houses and has become a good friend.  He's one of the most successful realtors in our area, former head of the board of Realtors, etc.

He has also said that open houses do not sell houses and are mainly designed to (1) make the seller feel like something's being done; and (2) allow the Realtor to meet people who might turn into new business.


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## ampaholic (Jul 14, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> I have NEVER, EVER said that there is a viable alternative to MLS. Only that someday there will be. It is inevitable. (Dream on) Fact facts, there are a lot of people who do not like dealing with Realtors. Just like there are a lot of people who do not like dealing with timeshare salesmen, car salesmen, and door-to-door missionaries. (or DENTISTS - yet they go)
> 
> You might think your profession is great and enjoys a high level of customer satisfaction. The truth is that there are an awful lot of people who don't think Realtors are worth the percentage they charge.* (about 6% of the population try to sell their own home and over half end up returning to an agent after their FAIL)* And for every "sale went smooth because of me" anecdote you wish to post, I can find a "sale was a nightmare because of the incompetent commission wh*** who listed my house" anecdote to counter.
> 
> ...



1.) there are no alternatives to the MLS - except *NO* MLS - period.

2.) there are no alternatives to using fuel - except using* NO* fuel - period.

3.) Opinions (and anecdotes) are easy - it's fact that are hard, Scoop 1.) and 2.) are just facts - get over it.


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## ScoopKona (Jul 15, 2013)

ampaholic said:


> 1.) there are no alternatives to the MLS - except *NO* MLS - period.
> 
> 2.) there are no alternatives to using fuel - except using* NO* fuel - period.
> 
> 3.) Opinions (and anecdotes) are easy - it's fact that are hard, Scoop 1.) and 2.) are just facts - get over it.



I remember a newspaper publisher telling me in 1996 that newspapers would NEVER be affected by the internet. "People want to do the crossword," he told me. "They want the actual physical paper. And besides, there is no substitute for classified ads."

I once did computer work for a travel agency. I was the only one in town who knew unix. This was also in the 1990s. "People will NEVER use the internet to book travel," they said. "Computers aren't smart enough to find the best price. We save travelers money, and they will keep coming to us forever."

I have a friend who once made a living selling ads for the Yellow Pages. "People will ALWAYS need the phone book," he said. "I'll have a job for life."

Face it, as soon as there is something besides the MLS, people will flock to it. 

NOBODY wants to pay six or seven percent for essentially no reason. On a modest $350K house, that's almost $25K. You say there's no money in a MLS replacement. I say there's so much money in it that it's amazing nobody has started one.

Bypass the MLS AND conduct the transaction without an agent? Win-win if you ask me.

You keep going back to comparing DIY real estate transactions with DIY dentistry. Illusions of grandeur if you ask me. Dentists hold a doctorate and are paid for their years of expensive education and training. There are many agents who have vast knowledge and experience. I don't deny that. But there are many MORE agents who are fresh out of Real Estate school, and know less about buying and selling a house than I do. 

There are also plenty of agents in my area who are ethically challenged, and would throw their own mother under the bus if it meant a commission check. I put offers on properties at least once a week here in Las Vegas. Half the time, I am dealing with listing agents who have a cavalier attitude about "fiduciary responsibility." They will tell me EXACTLY what the homeowners will accept. And I use this information to my advantage. There is no reason for me not to. There is EVERY reason (legal and ethical) for the Realtor to not do that to his clients. But tough luck for the clients. They should have picked a better agent.

I am hardly in the minority in my feelings about real estate agents. The forums of the Internet are rife with stories about lazy, unethical agents, and how they cost home buyers and sellers a lot of money from their actions (or inaction).


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## Elan (Jul 15, 2013)

FWIW, I bought my first house FSBO.  The seller paid, IIRC, $1995 for the paperwork, consultation, etc.  I sat down with him and filled out forms for about an hour, we negotiated a few things (I asked that he include the fridge and garage workbench), and that was effectively it.  It was totally painless.  

  From what I can tell, it takes about 90 hours of class and a test to become a sales agent in my state.  Make of that what you will..........


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 15, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> ....Face it, as soon as there is something besides the MLS, people will flock to it.
> 
> NOBODY wants to pay six or seven percent for essentially no reason. On a modest $350K house, that's almost $25K. You say there's no money in a MLS replacement. I say there's so much money in it that it's amazing nobody has started one.
> 
> ...



ScoopLV - what a GREAT summary of my feelings exactly. 

The only thing I will add is, you are much more at the MERCY of a real estate agent and the broker when YOU are SELLING your property. A buyer can and should bring in BOTH a lawyer BEFORE signing any sales agreement and a competent HOME INSPECTION.


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## Kal (Jul 15, 2013)

You betcha!  All you have to do is plant a sign in the yard and within a few minutes there's a bidding war between 15 buyers.

There's no need to understand staging or pricing.  I've seen prices of other houses so my price is the right price.  And for certain I don't need anybody else's communications network to enhance the selling opportunity.  My network of experts in manufacturing and selling muffler bearings is the right ticket to success.  My keen negotiating skills of "take it or leave it" will work fine in countering with any buyer.

Don't need no stinkin' realtor vampire :annoyed:


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## mspeggysue911 (Jul 15, 2013)

I have only read through the first 30 or so responses so excuse me if someone has already said something similar.

I use to be a Realtor up until about 7 years ago. I was a nurse and a realtor and retired from working all together. (SAHM)

Things were different back when I sold houses. We had MLS but the major internet boom in real estate had not taken off as much as it has now where agents have their own personal web pages with all the listings and pictures on it.

MLS was still mainly a website for agents to find listings for their buyers. It wasn't quite as public as it is now.

When I was a listing agent we would run print ads in the paper telling what houses we had for sale. Our broker/whoever we worked for paid for the paper ads.

If we advertised a specific ad like an open house ad we had to pay for that ourselves.

The only open houses I ever had were for the other agents. I never had open houses where the public came in. there is too big a risk of damage and theft. And unless you have other ppl there assisting you and watching every room you just can't have that many people going in and out of an occupied/furnished house.

I had in the past had an open house for a house that was completely unoccupied and had no belongings or furniture in it. The person who ended up buying that house never attended the open house.

I have never had an open house sell a house for me.

It did get other agents into the house so that they could see it and know about it and it caused them to show it more to their buyers.

But I am the one who had to pay for the food and drinks for that open house. You couldn't just have an agent open house you had to have FREE FOOD to get them there. And it usually needed to be catered because they weren't going to show up for some homemade finger sandwiches and chips.

At least that is the way it was around here. And that catered open house would usually cost me OUT OF POCKET about $400-$500 whether your house sold or not. It cost me that money whether you chose to stay with me after the 6 month contract ran out or not.

Real estate is a cut throat market place if you have ever worked in it you know. It is full of agents trying to steal other ppl's clients and do backdoor deals so sometimes it is hard to make yourself put out much of your own money like that not knowing if you will ever get it back.

Agents don't make a salary. They ONLY make money from selling houses.

Agents are not in the business of marketing so NO it is not the agents job to market your house. If they put out that kind of money on every listing they would be on food stamps within 6 months.

The agent gets paid for listing your house, for being available to buyer agents or seller agents when needed. They get paid for negotiating with other agents and for wheeling and dealing and getting you the best deal whether you are they buyer or the seller.

When I was an agent I have turned down MANY MANY listings because the seller wanted to way overprice their house. And as an agent you KNOW if the seller wants way more for that house than you know it will sell for then you are wasting your time and the sellers time by taking on a listing you know won't sell. I don't want to spend the next 6 months trying to talk you into lowering your price every 6 weeks. That just makes for hard feelings.

I have had ppl SHOCKED that I would ACTUALLY turn down their business. but I had to explain to them...just because you think your house is worth 200,000 dollars doesn't mean you will get that for it. It might be worth 150,000 at most. So I can't waste my time or money on this I'm sorry.

Eventually once enough agents turn them down they will come to see the light.

An agent that blows smoke up your behind and tells you your house is worth more than they can get for it is either inexperienced and desperate for business or they just don't know better.

And once you have had your 6 month contract expire and haven't sold the house yet they will want to move on to a new agent. They think you can work miracles.

Even when the real estate market isn't in the crap hole sometimes houses do not sell within the first 6 months.

As for the agent wanting you to have your house perfect...you need to have it as perfect as you can get it. First impressions are everything and if someone doesn't like the outside they wont' even come inside. Once they are inside if they don't like it they will leave.

If your house isn't spotless or if it is all cluttered up with a  bunch of knick knacks or stuffed full of personal belongings it will seem small and claustrophobic to them and they won't like it.

They need to be able to imagine their stuff in your house and see themselves living there. They don't need to see all the stuff that is wrong with it.

And as for the air conditioner...if the agent asked you to turn it on and leave it on then that is exactly what you need to do. They know what they are doing.

ETA: I don't think real estate agents are out for themselves... When I was an agent if I was the seller's agent I tried to get top dollar for the listing, not give away very many concessions and pay as minimal as possible on further expenses and repairs as possible. If I were the buyer's agent I tried to get every single thing wrong with the house fixed at the sellers expense, I would try to get them first time buyer's financing through Ameridream (downpayment program) and I would try to negotiate the seller paying most if not all the closing costs. So whatever side I was working for is whatever side I was trying to get the best deal for.

If I was the listing agent and you called to ask me to show you the house and you did not have your own agent I would show you the house but I was still acting as the seller's agent because I had them first. I would also let you know if you decided to buy that house through me and not have your own agent that I WAS the seller's agent. I don't mind taking the whole 6% for myself but I always told them it was in their best interest to have their own agent and that it didn't cost them a dime to have an agent. Only the seller pays the agent fees. I could not negotiate to get the buyer the best possible deal if I was acting as the seller's agent.

As an agent I know what goes into listing and selling a home and I would never buy or sell a property without an agent.


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## ScoopKona (Jul 15, 2013)

Kal said:


> You betcha!  All you have to do is plant a sign in the yard and within a few minutes there's a bidding war between 15 buyers.
> 
> There's no need to understand staging or pricing.  I've seen prices of other houses so my price is the right price.  And for certain I don't need anybody else's communications network to enhance the selling opportunity.  My network of experts in manufacturing and selling muffler bearings is the right ticket to success.  My keen negotiating skills of "take it or leave it" will work fine in countering with any buyer.
> 
> Don't need no stinkin' realtor vampire :annoyed:



You betcha! If the house is priced properly, it will sell. And if the house is nice enough, yes there will be multiple offers. Some people really do need an agent. They aren't capable or interested in learning to conduct a real estate transaction. They don't have the means or ability to learn their market (all markets are different). Or they're in a big hurry. 

But that doesn't mean that EVERYONE needs an agent. The best real estate transactions involve no agents whatsoever. Just the buyer, seller, and an escrow and title company. Better for everyone involved.


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## heathpack (Jul 15, 2013)

Well, definately for the last house we sold, our realtor was invaluable.  We lived in a desirable neighborhood, the kind where well-to-do yuppies would buy modest houses, knock em down and put up McMansions.  The house next to ours was a corner double lot owned by an 80-year-old man who had already had one stroke, was in the hospital and maybe never coming home.  There was a decent chance that a contractor with some cash to spend would be able to buy both modest houses, knock them down, split the lots and put up three McMansions.  

We met with 3 realtors before signing with the one we went with.  We thought the house was worth about 5-8% more than we had paid for it 3 years prior and the first two realtors agreed.  We even offered (on our own before we met with the realtors) to sell the house to a contractor who was knocking another house down in our neighborhood- we had suggested the 8% mark-up over our orginal purchase price.  The contractor passed on our offer.

Third realtor said to list it at 30% higher than our purchase price.  He acknowledged that the comps suggested it should be way lower, but rattled off a number of reasons why he'd list it for way more.  Most of the reasons had to do with the psychology/motivations of the yuppie buyer looking for a house in our neighborhood.  He also had a very clear and specific game plan for marketing the house (which centered as I said previously on creating a sense of urgency with the open house, he thought there was about a 50% chance the house would sell at the open house).  What he said made sense to us but we did not have the market insight to know if it was correct.

Maybe it was blind luck but he sold the house at the open house on the first day it was listed for the full list price.  Even after real estate commissions were paid, we cleared an extra $35,000.  Not chump change.  We were impressed.

We've worked with lackluster realtors and some real dynamos.  So far everyone we paid a commission to has earned it IMO.

H


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## Kal (Jul 15, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> ...Some people really do need an agent. They aren't capable or interested in learning to conduct a real estate transaction. They don't have the means or ability to learn their market (all markets are different)...


 
And that's about 95-98% of the people.

Realtors will not show a house advertised by the owner.  So the realtor's network provides a very large number of people to sell and show the house.


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## ottawasquaw (Jul 15, 2013)

"The best real estate transactions involve no agents whatsoever. Just the buyer, seller, and an escrow and title company. Better for everyone involved."

So, if I am to understand you correctly, you buy up a lot of rental property? Or do you "flip" homes? Maybe you are selling on contract?


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## ottawasquaw (Jul 15, 2013)

heathpack said:


> Even after real estate commissions were paid, we cleared an extra $35,000.  Not chump change.  We were impressed.
> 
> H



Wow! That's a great story! I had a similar situation while helping a friend sell an extra home out-of-state. I contacted 3 agents, researched comps, and finally got my friend's agent to list the home for significantly more than he had suggested. (He had the home listed before as it had sat empty for years).

He also wanted several things done to the house. I promised we would have a few of the items done, but begged him to get the home up on the MLS and a sign in the yard before the work was complete. A cash offer was made the same day we saw it on the internet. It was a very quick sale.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 15, 2013)

I really WONDER how many of the tales about real estate sales persons are current history. Like the last 6-9 months?

Yes, the market was just wonderful 6+ years ago. We all have to remember, that is NOT relevant today.

Yes, over 55 community seem to almost be insulated from current events.

Yes, we have a lean and far fewer realtor offices and salespersons than 6 years ago. And most personnel seem decades OLD.

I really need to understand WHERE we are today ... 

Realtors' office are NOT as open on nights and weeks. Cell phones numbers are plastered everywhere. Is it more like a DOG eat DOG world or is the REALTOR/Owner/Manager still able to KNOW what his agents are doing?


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## ScoopKona (Jul 15, 2013)

Kal said:


> And that's about 95-98% of the people.
> 
> Realtors will not show a house advertised by the owner.  So the realtor's network provides a very large number of people to sell and show the house.



And 95-98% of all statistics on the Internet are pulled out of thin air. 

I'd be willing to bet that if there were a way to bypass the traditional broker/agent/MLS arrangement, more than half would use it. Just like using the Internet to buy cars and airline tickets.

People are smarter than you give them credit for. You make it sound like real estate is as difficult as graduating from medical school. (You and ampaholic  love the DIY dentistry comparison. I don't see why. It isn't even CLOSE to the same thing.)


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## heathpack (Jul 15, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> I really WONDER how many of the tales about real estate sales persons are current history. Like the last 6-9 months?
> 
> Yes, the market was just wonderful 6+ years ago. We all have to remember, that is NOT relevant today.
> 
> ...



Our great experience selling our house was 7 years ago.  But we bought a house four years ago when things were bleak and our (different) realtor was pretty invaluable navigating all that weirdness- short sales, houses in foreclosure vandalized by exiting owners, bidding wars because of low interest rates, formerly good neighborhoods now in decline, and the almighty "will it appraise?" dilemma.  If anything, I think a realtor is even MORE helpful in the current and recent market than they were in the the "can't lose" market of 7-10 years ago.  We fired one realtor during the process who was honestly too lazy to get things done- the market moved very fast and she was always one step behind.  But the guy we bought our house with was awesome- dialed in to every nuance in our market, ferreting out listings the second they hit the market (or sometimes even before), helping us solve the problem when we had a fradulent appraisal.  Sorry but I work very long hours and was moving to a suburb that I didn't live in.  Hiring someone with expertise in the market we were shopping was the only efficient way to do things.

A few times a week, our California realtor emails us a link to current active and completed sales in our immediate neighborhood.  About 80% of them are closing at or above list price.  That tells me the bidding wars are alive and well.

Whatever.  Hire a realtor is you want or do it yourself.  I just think its inaccurate to state that it would be a reasonable thing for most people to try to buy/sell a home without a little help.

H


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## ampaholic (Jul 15, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> And 95-98% of all statistics on the Internet are pulled out of thin air.
> 
> *I'd be willing to bet that if there were a way to bypass the traditional broker/agent/MLS arrangement, more than half would use it.* Just like using the Internet to buy cars and airline tickets.
> 
> People are smarter than you give them credit for. You make it sound like real estate is as difficult as graduating from medical school. (You and ampaholic  love the DIY dentistry comparison. I don't see why. It isn't even CLOSE to the same thing.)



Repeat - there isn't any such way - except in your dreams perhaps.

Sheesh - you really need to get over this nonsensical idea that there exists an alternative to the MLS - there is NONE, NONE, NONE.

Why do you keep pushing your dream as* reality* - do you know the definition of insanity?


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## ampaholic (Jul 15, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> *And 95-98% of all statistics on the Internet are pulled out of thin air. *
> ...



KAL's number 95-98% is NOT "from the Internet". The NAR (NOT NRA as you posted ) Keeps detailed records of statistics kept by closing agents in my area and most other areas.

Here in Spokane about 2 in 10 closings involve ZERO Brokers, so you think wow the FSBO is doing 20% of the deals ----- NO ----- 75% of those ZERO agent closings are Family member to Family member transfers.

Only 1 in 25 sales involve strangers and ZERO agents --- Just facts backed up by closing company records Scoopster!!!!!!

The typical FSBO ends up listing their home with an agent after 2 or 3 weeks of "trying it on their own" 

While some owners successfully sell their home without a listing agent - *they almost always end up paying the buyer's agent's fee.* So yea, they may end up not paying that 3% list agent fee - buy costing themselves who knows what in time, effort and annoyance. 

Any keep this in mind Scoopster - very rarely does 2 or 3% on the price make or break the sale, why not just up the price by 3% and enjoy your days off while your agent does the grunt work?.


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## ampaholic (Jul 15, 2013)

heathpack said:


> Whatever.  Hire a realtor is you want or do it yourself.  I just think its inaccurate to state that it would be a reasonable thing for most people to try to buy/sell a home without a little help.
> 
> H



+1 --- I agree. Oh, no I've become Carolinian - three posts in a row


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## ScoopKona (Jul 15, 2013)

ampaholic said:


> KAL's number 95-98% is NOT "from the Internet". The NAR (NOT NRA as you posted ) Keeps detailed records of statistics kept by closing agents in my area and most other areas.
> 
> Here in Spokane about 2 in 10 closings involve ZERO Brokers, so you think wow the FSBO is doing 20% of the deals ----- NO ----- 75% of those ZERO agent closings are Family member to Family member transfers.
> 
> ...



It's Scoop. Or ScoopLV if you prefer. I address you by your name. I debate facts without resorting to being snide and dismissive. This isn't the first time in this thread.
_
"why don't you use some of that big boy confidence up"
"I think you need to lay off the hallucinogens a bit"_

You aren't a very nice person, are you?



As for the rest of your post, this is typical Realtor hogwash. "Why don't you just relax, and let an agent do the work? Your time is too valuable! We're the experts. Let us handle everything!"

The answer is simple: For the houses I deal in, the commission ends up being more than $20K on each transaction. Why on Earth would I work as hard as I do to simply give a Realtor five and six figures every year to do next to nothing? 

As for FSBOs, the reason they don't sell is that the homeowners are too emotionally invested in their house. They think their improvements are worth more than they really are, and they overprice their house. Most FSBOs can be ignored. But occasionally, you find someone who just wants agents out of the picture and puts their property on the market for a reasonable price. These are the best transactions of them all. And more and more people are doing just that. They're still in the minority. But so was buying timeshares on the resale market instead of the developer, too.

I don't dislike Realtors. But I don't feel I owe them a living, either. I have yet to meet one who was worth their six percent. (That's the average around here.) On the few occasions that it makes sense to employ an agent, I negotiate a flat fee for the transaction. I have yet to meet an agent who said no to one of my flat fee offers.

And I absolutely stand by my assertion that as soon as there is viable competition to the MLS, that's it for the broker/agent transaction model. People don't like paying several thousand, or tens of thousands more than they should. Agency adds an unnecessary layer of expense to what is otherwise a fairly straightforward transaction.


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## ampaholic (Jul 15, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> You aren't a very nice person, are you?



You are right, I don't suffer fools well. Especially ones who think they know it all.




ScoopLV said:


> As for the rest of your post, this is typical Realtor hogwash. "Why don't you just relax, and let an agent do the work? Your time is too valuable! We're the experts. Let us handle everything!"
> 
> The answer is simple: For the houses I deal in, the commission ends up being more than $20K on each transaction. Why on Earth would I work as hard as I do to simply give a Realtor five and six figures every year *to do next to nothing?*



See what I mean - you already think you "know" what you can expect from a Realtor(R)



ScoopLV said:


> As for FSBOs, the reason they don't sell is that the homeowners are too emotionally invested in their house. They think their improvements are worth more than they really are, and they overprice their house.



WTF do you think the Agent's first job is? You are making MY point there. 



ScoopLV said:


> I don't dislike Realtors. But I don't feel I owe them a living, either. I have yet to meet one who was worth their six percent. (That's the average around here.) On the few occasions that it makes sense to employ an agent, I negotiate a flat fee for the transaction. I have yet to meet an agent who said no to one of my flat fee offers.



I think you are secretly envious of successful agents (you _*did*_ mention you are licensed, but your license is on hold - a sure sign of failure as an agent) and you begrudge them their success - Just My Opinion.

I have *LITERALLY DOZENS* of people in my book of clients who were *HAPPY* to pay my commission, and BTW I hardly ever charged 6% - I was *usually* at 8% and sometimes at 9 or 10%.

Because they knew more than YOU! - is what I think.



ScoopLV said:


> And I absolutely stand by my assertion that as soon as there is viable competition to the MLS, that's it for the broker/agent transaction model. People don't like paying several thousand, or tens of thousands more than they should. Agency adds an unnecessary layer of expense to what is otherwise a fairly straightforward transaction.



More Fairy tail -* THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE TO THE MLS *- are you unable to read my posts?

You keep restating this same dream you have - expecting different results - well buddy it's still just in your head like the last 4 times you "asserted it".

You appear to have been lucky to have "fairly straightforward transactions" - at least some of that is likely because you did study enough to at least get a license - I would advise my sellers to avoid trying to deal with you since you seem to think you deserve to have total control of the deal.

You actually remind me of a poor mans Donald Trump. :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:


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## ScoopKona (Jul 15, 2013)

ampaholic said:


> I think you are secretly envious of successful agents (you _*did*_ mention you are licensed, but your license is on hold - a sure sign of failure as an agent) and you begrudge them their success - Just My Opinion.



Not at all. I'm licensed in two states. I use my license for my own transactions. I hardly ever need it anymore, and I'm not interested in paying dues to the guild. Nor am I interested in all the continuing education. I have a very, very select criteria for houses. What I'm doing works for me. And I don't need an agent to do it. (Although it's useful for some trustee sales and foreclosures. So I hire them when I need them -- for a flat fee.)

I am successful without having to work as an agent. I do not find the work interesting, or particularly challenging. I can see why some people love it. I do not. 



ampaholic said:


> More Fairy tail -* THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE TO THE MLS *- are you unable to read my posts?
> 
> You keep restating this same dream you have - expecting different results - well buddy it's still just in your head like the last 4 times you "asserted it".



I can read your posts just fine. I wonder about your ability to read mine, though. Re-read my posts on this thread if you have to. I have NEVER, EVER, EVER said that there is currently an alternative to the MLS. *Only that someday there will be.* It appears to me that you are reading the words and then employing your cognitive dissonance to parse meaning that I did not say. Someday it will happen. And I'm surprised it hasn't already happened. Because there is a lot of money to be made by an MLS competitor. I'm of the mind that monopolies are always a bad thing.




ampaholic said:


> You actually remind me of a poor mans Donald Trump. :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:



Actually, I'm employing John Jacob Astor's playbook. But if name-calling is what gets you through the day....


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## ampaholic (Jul 16, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> *Nor am I interested in all the continuing education. *



Why am I not surprised!





ScoopLV said:


> ...I have NEVER, EVER, EVER said that there is currently an alternative to the MLS. *Only that someday there will be.* It appears to me that you are reading the words and then employing your cognitive dissonance to parse meaning that I did not say. *Someday it will happen.* And I'm surprised it hasn't already happened. Because there is a lot of money to be made by an MLS competitor. I'm of the mind that monopolies are always a bad thing.



Well, Scoop - I hate to dash you dreams yet again - there won't be such a thingie since there is no money in it.

I thought we went over this - the only way your "thingie" will compete with the MLS is to *A)* do a better job (very unlikely) or *B)* perhaps it can do a little less if it costs a* lot* less.

But if it costs a lot less - then all the "money to be made" is gone - poof.

See - you are under the *mistaken* impression that listing a house "for sale" on the MLS is really "doing nothing" and is thus valueless.

In reality listing a house on the MLS is *EXACTLY* the thing that will get it sold - it is exposing the house to nearly all the potential buyers in that market. Since it is *EXACTLY* the thing needed to sell the house it has value.

I am beginning to loose (edit: this word should have been lose) patience with you when you keep degrading something I know has value by stating it has none - knock it off or I will get real crabby with you.


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## ScoopKona (Jul 16, 2013)

ampaholic said:


> I am beginning to loose patience with you when you keep degrading something I know has value by stating it has none - knock it off or I will get real crabby with you.



"Loose" all the patience you want. The market does not want to pay all that extra money for no good reason. Continue to get crabby. By all means. The market is tired of agents with an egregious sense of entitlement. 


Loose = not tight.
Lose = didn't win. 

You are losing this argument because you are playing fast and loose with the facts.

Why on Earth is entering some information into the MLS for 15 minutes worth twenty thousand dollars or more? Seriously, justify that kind of income.


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## ampaholic (Jul 16, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> "Loose" all the patience you want. The market does not want to pay all that extra money for no good reason. Continue to get crabby. By all means. The market is tired of agents with an egregious sense of entitlement.
> 
> 
> Loose = not tight.
> ...



Well, I think when you get snide over an obvious typo it shows you are in fact "failing to win" the discussion - if winning is what you are after.

Your dislike/jealousy of Realtors(R) strikes me as more of a loser mentality - again just MHO.

--------

Mariah Carey sings for 15 min. and makes $70,000 - I don't need to justify that income since she got the job done - she made me happy.  

My Realtor(r) spends 15 min. listing my house on the MLS and makes $20,000 - I don't need to justify that income since s/he got the job done - s/he made my house belong to someone else.

Simple really.

Next.


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## ScoopKona (Jul 16, 2013)

ampaholic said:


> W
> My Realtor(r) spends 15 min. listing my house on the MLS and makes $20,000 - I don't need to justify that income since s/he got the job done - s/he made my house belong to someone else.
> 
> Simple really.
> ...



No, it is not simple, nor is it justified. Entering information into the MLS for 15 minutes does not justify a $20,000 paycheck. Not in any reality other than yours. I work too hard all year to simply give that kind of money to Realtors for entering information into a database.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 16, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> No, it is not simple, nor is it justified. Entering information into the MLS for 15 minutes does not justify a $20,000 paycheck. Not in any reality other than yours. I work too hard all year to simply give that kind of money to Realtors for entering information into a database.



Mariah Carey singing is an unique talent - entering info into a database is not the same --- just ask ALL the customer service agents who spend their days typing into format date entry screens. I bet they would LOVE to earn $20K for each customer they deal with.:ignore:


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## ScoopKona (Jul 16, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> Mariah Carey singing is an unique talent - entering info into a database is not the same --- just ask ALL the customer service agents who spend their days typing into format date entry screens. I bet they would LOVE to earn $20K for each customer they deal with.:ignore:



There is apparently no limit to their sense of entitlement....


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## am1 (Jul 16, 2013)

6% is a lot of commission to sell a house.  To some it is worth it.  To others it is worth paying a flat fee, lower percentage or nothing.

I believe FSBO and others will continue to grow.  

Hopefully the MLS will be forced to allow anyone to post their listing.  

An agent that would not show a FSBO house to a buyer is doing their client a disservice.


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## Patri (Jul 16, 2013)

am1 said:


> An agent that would not show a FSBO house to a buyer is doing their client a disservice.



In this case, how would the agent get paid? Clients don't pay to look at houses. Seller pays the commission, in which there would be none here.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 16, 2013)

Patri said:


> In this case, how would the agent get paid? Clients don't pay to look at houses. Seller pays the commission, in which there would be none here.



A "buyer's agent" realtor can show a non-listed MLS house. 

Either the agent's agreement would have the buyer paying their commission or the agent could have the independent home seller sign a ONE-TIME showing agreement for a commission for THAT CLIENT ONLY.

After all, what is a Buyer's Broker .... a wolf in sheep's clothing or NOT?


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## Elan (Jul 16, 2013)

Patri said:


> In this case, how would the agent get paid? Clients don't pay to look at houses. Seller pays the commission, in which there would be none here.



  Pretty simple.  The buyer can write into their offer that the seller is to pay the buyer's agent, be it a percentage or a flat fee.  Or, in the seller's FSBO listing, they can simply put that they'll pay $10K (or whatever) to a buyer's agent.  If the seller doesn't pay the 3% to list, there's quite a bit more wiggle room to negotiate with the buyer and their agent.


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## ottawasquaw (Jul 16, 2013)

am1 said:


> Hopefully the MLS will be forced to allow anyone to post their listing.



That is a delusional statement, but thanks for sharing your dream! 

Clearly, you like the MLS and see the benefit. It represents the relationships and agreements among brokers which facilitates in real estate being sold.


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## ampaholic (Jul 16, 2013)

ScoopLV said:


> No, it is not simple, nor is it justified. Entering information into the MLS for 15 minutes does not justify a $20,000 paycheck. *Not in any reality other than yours.* I work too hard all year to simply give that kind of money to Realtors for entering information into a database.



No need to get *snide* (again)

First are you really dumb enough to think that that is all an agent does?

And second --- No - it actually *is* quite that simple - when a person hires a Realtor(R) they are hiring them to get a particular result - a result that they are statistically unlikely to get for themselves if they forgo the agent. When the agent does get that result for the homeowner does the homeowner *THEN* pee on the result and say naw I really didn't need you to sell my house.

No - it's only people without a house to sell or the pigheaded person who thinks like you and that want to pee on Realtor's feet - well piss somewhere else buddy. I have answered you. 

I am now simply thinking of all the future people who might read this thread and pigheadedly think they can get top dollar in no time when selling their house without the use of a Realtor(R) or the MLS - *it is statistically unlikely*.

Are *YOU* going to help them when their house languishes on the market for months and months and all they get for nibbles is sharks like you trying to steal their home?


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## ampaholic (Jul 16, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> Mariah Carey singing is an unique talent - entering info into a database is not the same --- just ask ALL the customer service agents who spend their days typing into format date entry screens. I bet they would LOVE to earn $20K for each customer they deal with.:ignore:



Actually there are more "singers" in the world than there are Real Estate Brokers - just sayin ....

When you want to sell your home do you really want a $10.00 per hour minimum wage person doing it - if so I think Scoop is available.

If it is *RESULTS* you want - you might have to pay for them.


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## Elan (Jul 16, 2013)

There are brokers who will list one's FSBO property on the MLS for a flat fee.  

  Sometimes as low as $299, but more typically around $500.


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## ampaholic (Jul 16, 2013)

Elan said:


> There are brokers who will list one's FSBO property on the MLS for a flat fee.
> 
> Sometimes as low as $299, but more typically around $500.



This is a fairly new phenomenon in most markets, it remains to be seen how effective it will be.

Here in Spokane when we have contractions in the market it usually squeezes hardest on the "Discount" Brokers - many fail while the top end brokers keep going.

Other markets may vary.


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## Makai Guy (Jul 16, 2013)

And with the last group of friendly and upbeat posts, this thread comes to an end.


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