# Ocean Front now has more Starpoints and Options [merged]



## PamMo (Aug 20, 2015)

Just got this email:

_We have great news regarding your StarOptions from Starwood Vacation Network℠ and Starpoints® from the Starwood Preferred Guest® program. The valuations of your StarOptions and Starpoints for your Oceanfront Villa type are increasing, effective with the 2017 Use Year. 

After a recent evaluation of our Maui villa resorts and the announcement of our newest resort, The Westin Nanea Ocean Villas, we recognize the increased value and desirability for Oceanfront reservations at The Westin Kāʻanapali Ocean Resort Villas and The Westin Kāʻanapali Ocean Resort Villas North. 

With more StarOptions and Starpoints, you’ll enjoy the flexibility of longer stays at other villa resorts and more opportunities to stay at Starwood hotels and resorts around the world. Here’s how your new valuations compare:_

The values will go up for oceanfront, haven't heard about our oceanview units yet, whether or not they'll get a boost in SO's? Here's the new StarOption values for 2017:

2BR: 176,700
1BR: 95,700
Studio: 81,000


----------



## pathways25 (Aug 20, 2015)

*WKORV and WKORVN OF units increasing StarOptions and StarPoints*

Starwood just announced that effective in 2017, ocean front units at WKORV and WKORVN will be increasing their StarOption and StarPoint values.  The new StarOption values for 2BR / 1BR / Studio will be 176,700 / 95,700 / 81,000 and the StarPoint values will be 95,418 / 51,678 / 43,740.  

I wonder if this means that OF units will be reserveable as a separate category in the StarOption exchange period.


----------



## paluamalia (Aug 20, 2015)

*Ocean Front now has more Starpoints and Options*

In my email today:

We have great news regarding your StarOptions from Starwood Vacation Network℠ and Starpoints® from the Starwood Preferred Guest® program. The valuations of your StarOptions and Starpoints for your Oceanfront Villa type are increasing, effective with the 2017 Use Year. 

After a recent evaluation of our Maui villa resorts and the announcement of our newest resort, The Westin Nanea Ocean Villas, we recognize the increased value and desirability for Oceanfront reservations at The Westin Kāʻanapali Ocean Resort Villas and The Westin Kāʻanapali Ocean Resort Villas North. 

With more StarOptions and Starpoints, you’ll enjoy the flexibility of longer stays at other villa resorts and more opportunities to stay at Starwood hotels and resorts around the world. Here’s how your new valuations compare:


2 Bedroom was 148,000 Now 176,700
Lockoffs - 1 bedroom now 95,700
STudio 81,000


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2015)

This tells me that they are increasing SO's so that it costs more to reserve an ocean front unit using the new flex program...  Didn't they do the same thing at WSJ?


----------



## Sugarcubesea (Aug 20, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> This tells me that they are increasing SO's so that it costs more to reserve an ocean front unit using the new flex program...
> 
> Sent from my BNTV400 using Tapatalk



Now a WKV will no longer pull a 2 bedroom


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2015)

Sugarcubesea said:


> Now a WKV will no longer pull a 2 bedroom



This only applies to Ocean *Front *units.  There are still many ocean view, and island view units - the vast majority.


----------



## KACTravels (Aug 20, 2015)

Sugarcubesea said:


> Now a WKV will no longer pull a 2 bedroom



It won't be able to pull an OceanFront 2 BD. did other views also go up or other properties?


----------



## SMHarman (Aug 20, 2015)

A change to OF not OV. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


----------



## GregT (Aug 20, 2015)

I think this change makes sense -- and is consistent with how Marriott premium prices the OF's at Maui Ocean Club and also at Kauai Lagoons.  Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't take OV up to these levels, and also push OF up even more.

It will be interesting to see if WKORV-NN gets a higher percentage of OF view categories.

Best,

Greg


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2015)

KACTravels said:


> It won't be able to pull an OceanFront 2 BD. did other views also go up or other properties?



Not that we know of - but there aren't any other resorts with an "Ocean Front" designation in the Starwood system.  

This is most likely related to alignment with the new Flex program that they are rolling out in the new phase on Maui.  

I'm guessing that the new phase will have different Staroptions for different views.  So, they probably didn't want the OF units in the existing phase to require fewer Staroptions than the equivalent unit in the new phase.


----------



## PamMo (Aug 20, 2015)

But, I think this means that for the first time, you'll be able to book a specific view with StarOptions. It will cost more, but for a special occasion, it would be nice to KNOW you're going to get an oceanfront villa. Otherwise, I think the boost in points seems very arbitrary. Why only boost the SO's for oceanfront villas? Not because, as they stated, they recognize the special value of the units. :hysterical: It's all about the marketing of Nanea.

BTW, Marriott has valued views differently in their Destinations Club program since the beginning. For example, a 2BR Christmas week in the Lahaina and Napili villas are: Island View - 6,475, Mountain/Garden View - 7,675, Ocean view - 9,225, and Oceanfront - 10,425.


----------



## NNerland (Aug 20, 2015)

Denise - they did this in St John and it makes sense.  It is a win for those owners, current owners.  Not very often when they do something for owners, when it benefits them the most.  This allows them to sell premium views, and since they charge more per point access they can make more money.  So OF wins like STJ owners won.   I was able to vault to 5 star from 4 star by a simple revaluation of the STJ points.  Once 5 star, as long as you keep your ownership you are grandfathered into 5 star even if they raise points.

One small victory --


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2015)

NNerland said:


> Denise - they did this in St John and it makes sense.  It is a win for those owners, current owners.  Not very often when they do something for owners, when it benefits them the most.  This allows them to sell premium views, and since they charge more per point access they can make more money.  So OF wins like STJ owners won.   I was able to vault to 5 star from 4 star by a simple revaluation of the STJ points.  Once 5 star, as long as you keep your ownership you are grandfathered into 5 star even if they raise points.
> 
> One small victory --



They didn't do this for the owners - they did this to realign with the new Flex program.  If they did this for owners, it would have been done years ago.  Whether it's good thing or not remains to be seen - it really depends on how Flex owners can access OF reservations at WKORV N&S.


----------



## vacationtime1 (Aug 20, 2015)

PamMo said:


> But, I think this means that for the first time, you'll be able to book a specific view with StarOptions. It will cost more, but for a special occasion, it would be nice to KNOW you're going to get an oceanfront villa. Otherwise, I think the boost in points seems very arbitrary. Why only boost the SO's for oceanfront villas? Not because, as they stated, they recognize the special value of the units. :hysterical: *It's all about the marketing of Nanea*.
> 
> BTW, Marriott has valued views differently in their Destinations Club program since the beginning. For example, a 2BR Christmas week in the Lahaina and Napili villas are: Island View - 6,475, Mountain/Garden View - 7,675, Ocean view - 9,225, and Oceanfront - 10,425.



So Nanea will cost 176,700 StarOptions for a two bedroom (and more for a three bedroom).  Which means Starwood gets to sell more FlexOptions to people who want OF units there.  

I wonder if the definition of OF at Nanea will be more like WKORV or WKORVN?


----------



## PamMo (Aug 20, 2015)

vacationtime1 said:


> ...I wonder if the definition of OF at Nanea will be more like WKORV or WKORVN?



Well, you can take a look at this thread and see the site plan that Denise posted  http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228257&highlight=Nanea     and take a wild guess. True oceanfront units at Nanea look more like WKORV than WKROVN, but who knows how Starwood/Vistana will define oceanfront?


----------



## dss (Aug 20, 2015)

Personally as a an OFD owner at WKORV, I think this is good news. It increases the relative value of my unit but most importantly, it also allows me the possibility of securing OFD within the Staroption booking window. It was always a bit disappointing knowing that if I couldn't find on a date during the ownership period, that I was out of luck booking my ownership unit. That being said, it's been a huge challenge in the past couple of years to find these units as people are more aware than ever that there are very few OF (south) units and are booking them earlier and earlier during the ownership period so I don't think this has a meaningful impact on real world Staroption booking for WKORV OF but as noted above, is more of a sales positioning thing for the flex program.


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2015)

At this point, it's hard to tell:

-Will there be 2 pools of inventory - one for Flex and one for regular owners?

-Will Flex owners have higher priority to make Staroption reservations than non-flex owners?


----------



## SMHarman (Aug 20, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> At this point, it's hard to tell:
> 
> -Will there be 2 pools of inventory - one for Flex and one for regular owners?
> 
> -Will Flex owners have higher priority to make Staroption reservations than non-flex owners?


It will be interesting to see if Weeks StarOptions owners get locked out of the new developments e.g. Cabo because it all is trust/flex. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


----------



## taterhed (Aug 20, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> At this point, it's hard to tell:
> 
> -Will there be 2 pools of inventory - one for Flex and one for regular owners?
> 
> -Will Flex owners have higher priority to make Staroption reservations than non-flex owners?



+1

 This is the crux of the matter.  U hit the nail on the head.


----------



## vacationtime1 (Aug 20, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> At this point, it's hard to tell:
> 
> -Will there be 2 pools of inventory - one for Flex and one for regular owners?
> 
> -Will Flex owners have higher priority to make Staroption reservations than non-flex owners?



I think it will look something like the Marriott Destination Club system with two inventory pools separated porously.  Why?

To give one example, the Flex program will need Kierland units to accommodate winter golfers and spring training devotees.  Kierland doesn't have ROFR, so Starwood has no easy way to create Kierland inventory for its Flex program -- unless it incentivizes existing Kierland owners to make their units available by permitting them to be exchanged for Flex inventory.  Much like Marriott is now doing.

We will not be permitted to see behind the black curtain as to how Starwood accomplishes this, who has priority for what, and what quotas or limitations are put in place.  But Starwood will almost certainly want its prime resorts (mostly Westin branded) to be available for FlexOption use, and will therefore have to make at least some accommodation to existing owners.  

Our Marriott friends report that points reservations into resorts owned mostly by Marriott's new trust work fairly seamlessly for enrolled owners.


----------



## alexadeparis (Aug 20, 2015)

Well, I for one am glad I recently went up to 257,700 so's, so I can capture these units if they ever come available at 8 months.


----------



## DavidnRobin (Aug 20, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> This tells me that they are increasing SO's so that it costs more to reserve an ocean front unit using the new flex program...  Didn't they do the same thing at WSJ?



they did it 2x for WSJ-VGV owners, and 1x for BV owners - first it was to align VGV with BV, and then VGV/BV with CV.

our SOs went from 67.1K to 81K to 95.7K

re: Flex Owners > non-Flex Owners... they would have to change the CCRs at WKORV for a Flex Owner to have same reservation priority as an Resort Owner (recall that these priorities are stated in CCRs). If this were to happen for OF owners (unlikely) - I would be 1st in-line with a lawsuit.  That is similar to selling the same VOI twice.  In the extreme - OF owners would not be able to reserve their deeded villa because Flex owners grabbed them... good luck with that...


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2015)

David - I hope you are right, but what if Starwood buys a number of Oceanfront units and puts them in the Flex System, and the Flex pool?  They might not be accessible to deeded week owners....


----------



## SMHarman (Aug 20, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> David - I hope you are right, but what if Starwood buys a number of Oceanfront units and puts them in the Flex System, and the Flex pool?  They might not be accessible to deeded week owners....


Which works in HI but outside the ROFR destinations you need to buy to put in trust.  Is VVO about to open a eBay account and go shopping for WKV and HRA etc

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


----------



## vacationtime1 (Aug 20, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> David - I hope you are right, but what if Starwood buys a number of Oceanfront units and puts them in the Flex System, and the Flex pool?  They might not be accessible to deeded week owners....



If Starwood buys a week, it can do what it wants with it.  But it cannot usurp my absolute right to an OF reservation at WKORV (as long as I make a reservation on time).

(I will be in line with David to file that lawsuit if they try.)


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2015)

vacationtime1 said:


> If Starwood buys a week, it can do what it wants with it.  But it cannot usurp my absolute right to an OF reservation at WKORV (as long as I make a reservation on time).
> 
> (I will be in line with David to file that lawsuit if they try.)



True - But depending on how many go in the pool, it might limit availability to deeded week owners.  
Just say'n 

*Yes, I AM playing the devil's advocate here, but let's not pretend this is anything except a move that helps Starwood sell their new phase/Flex System.


----------



## okwiater (Aug 20, 2015)

DeniseM, Ken555, DavidnRobin, sjsharkie, etc. -- not to say "I told you so," (well, maybe a little ) but I predicted this back in January: http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222406&p=1718003


----------



## taterhed (Aug 20, 2015)

okwiater said:


> DeniseM, Ken555, DavidnRobin, sjsharkie, etc. -- not to say "I told you so," (well, maybe a little ) but I predicted this back in January: http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222406&p=1718003



Props.  You indeed called it.

 This is definitely 'rub your nose in it' worthy.


----------



## Henry M. (Aug 20, 2015)

My understanding is that Nanea will have a point system, but WKORV and WKORV-N will not change from what they are today. WKORV and WKORV-N are considered sister properties. Nanea is totally separate. For example, employees can move freely between WKORV and WKORV-N, but a move to Nanea would be considered a transfer.


----------



## PamMo (Aug 20, 2015)

Yes, I remember that discussion and you DID nail it!  We Tuggers love prognosticating over what Starwood (and other developers, exchange companies...) can/can't and will/won't do.


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2015)

emuyshondt said:


> My understanding is that Nanea will have a point system, but WKORV and WKORV-N will not change from what they are today. WKORV and WKORV-N are considered sister properties. Nanea is totally separate. For example, employees can move freely between WKORV and WKORV-N, but a move to Nanea would be considered a transfer.



I believe that _current _deeded ownerships will stay the same.

But I also think that Starwood is acquiring inventory at WKORV-N/S for the flex system.


----------



## wallace37 (Aug 20, 2015)

emuyshondt said:


> My understanding is that Nanea will have a point system, but WKORV and WKORV-N will not change from what they are today. WKORV and WKORV-N are considered sister properties. Nanea is totally separate. For example, employees can move freely between WKORV and WKORV-N, but a move to Nanea would be considered a transfer.



From the press release of Nanea Ocean Villas: "Guests will enjoy cultural
programming celebrating local history, arts and crafts, music and dance, as well as access to resort amenities at
The Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas located next door, including Spa Helani, a Heavenly Spa by Westin. "

Do you think guests of WKORV(N) will have reciprocal access to Nanea?


----------



## Henry M. (Aug 20, 2015)

Yes. I would think those kinds of privileges would be reciprocal.


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2015)

wallace37 said:


> From the press release of Nanea Ocean Villas: "Guests will enjoy cultural
> programming celebrating local history, arts and crafts, music and dance, as well as access to resort amenities at
> The Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas located next door, including Spa Helani, a Heavenly Spa by Westin. "
> 
> Do you think guests of WKORV(N) will have reciprocal access to Nanea?



Absolutely....


----------



## lizap (Aug 20, 2015)

Your chance of getting an OF at these resorts as a non-owner wasn't that great, anyway..




Sugarcubesea said:


> Now a WKV will no longer pull a 2 bedroom


----------



## lizap (Aug 20, 2015)

OK, I'll make another prediction:  Starwood (Vistana) will offer other existing owners a chance to buy into the Flex system (ala Marriott), but the price won't be as reasonable as that of Marriott..




okwiater said:


> DeniseM, Ken555, DavidnRobin, sjsharkie, etc. -- not to say "I told you so," (well, maybe a little ) but I predicted this back in January: http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222406&p=1718003


----------



## GregT (Aug 20, 2015)

lizap said:


> OK, I'll make another prediction:  Starwood (Vistana) will offer other existing owners a chance to buy into the Flex system (ala Marriott), but the price won't be as reasonable as that of Marriott..



I agree with this -- and I think it will be most compelling to owners of voluntary resorts that would have been worth 148,100 StarOptions and have reasonable MFs.    But I'm not sure which property that would be? 

Best,

Greg


----------



## SMHarman (Aug 20, 2015)

lizap said:


> Your chance of getting an OF at these resorts as a non-owner wasn't that great, anyway..


Good news now is subject to availability. You can book and guarantee one. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


----------



## SMHarman (Aug 20, 2015)

GregT said:


> I agree with this -- and I think it will be most compelling to owners of voluntary resorts that would have been worth 148,100 StarOptions and have reasonable MFs.    But I'm not sure which property that would be?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


The unicorn SOD Plat Plus appears again. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


----------



## taterhed (Aug 20, 2015)

lizap said:


> OK, I'll make another prediction: Starwood (Vistana) will offer other existing owners a chance to buy into the Flex system (ala Marriott), but the price won't be as reasonable as that of Marriott..





GregT said:


> I agree with this -- and I think it will be most compelling to owners of voluntary resorts that would have been worth 148,100 StarOptions and have reasonable MFs. But I'm not sure which property that would be?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg




 +2  I'll look for that unicorn.  Dang.  Maybe I should have grabbed that free WKV last week.   I could have banked/borrowed/rented 146k points and been golden!


----------



## Ken555 (Aug 20, 2015)

okwiater said:


> DeniseM, Ken555, DavidnRobin, sjsharkie, etc. -- not to say "I told you so," (well, maybe a little ) but I predicted this back in January: http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222406&p=1718003




I was just thinking of this as I read this thread. Bonus points for you! 

I'm not sure how this will turn out in the long run, but with the recent changes to SVN itself (vistana, flex, etc), these types of changes became more possible. I doubt we've seen the last change, either. 


Sent from my iPad


----------



## sjsharkie (Aug 20, 2015)

okwiater said:


> DeniseM, Ken555, DavidnRobin, sjsharkie, etc. -- not to say "I told you so," (well, maybe a little ) but I predicted this back in January: http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222406&p=1718003


You do get partial credit 

Your post indicated a bump of options at the Maui properties -- not the OF sliver that is included in this change.

Clearly I am unhappy by the changes as this further dilutes the pool of available SOs without increasing any actual eligible unit inventory.  That only devalues the current SOs for those of us that do not own Maui OF.

That being said, I still stand by my original post because the OF properties represent a smaller fraction of the units on Maui.  This was somewhat clever, because it still allows owners of a 2BR lockoff Plat Plus to exchange into Maui at 8 mos while adding the availability of reserving OF if desired -- meanwhile, they devalue the SO of an existing unit slightly, but not so much to create a huge outright revolt.  All this to enable selling units at WKORV-NN for more $$.

But you do get partial kudos in my book 

-ryan


----------



## GregT (Aug 20, 2015)

SMHarman said:


> The unicorn SDO Plat Plus appears again.
> 
> Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk



Are they never for sale?  Interesting because it does meet the limited criteria I set out, do they get snapped up when available?  

Best,

Greg


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2015)

GregT said:


> Are they never for sale?  Interesting because it does meet the limited criteria I set out, do they get snapped up when available?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Yes - because they are rare, and they are prized as inexpensive units that can be requalified for 148,100.  Not all 1-52 floating 2 bdms. qualify for 148,100 Staroptions - only the Plat weeks.


----------



## okwiater (Aug 20, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> I'm not sure how this will turn out in the long run, but with the recent changes to SVN itself (vistana, flex, etc), these types of changes became more possible. I doubt we've seen the last change, either.



SVO's behavior becomes a lot more predictable if you assume that all of the changes they began implementing a couple of years ago are part of a well-orchestrated *master plan* rather than simply arbitrary.

Viewed through that lens, StarOptions banking was always -- rather obviously, in hindsight -- the mechanism by which SVO could start developing new resorts at higher SO values without fundamentally breaking the SVN marketplace. Everybody knows that 148,100 & 196,900 were the top-tier 2BR and 3BR valuations. Without banking, there was no way to introduce "inflation" into the StarOption currency because the new WSJ 257,700 valuations could only be _deposited_ in SVN but never _redeemed_. When StarOptions banking was introduced, it seemed like such a great feature -- but in reality it makes it much, much easier to continually devalue SOs because hey, you can always bank this year's StarOptions and reserve that shiny new resort next year. It also acts as a very useful sales tool by encouraging owners to regularly "trade up" to new resorts with higher SO valuations.

I know what you're thinking -- as owners trade up, how will SVO resell those newly devalued deeds? I'm glad you asked. If I were SVO, I would probably create a holding company that sells points packages backed by all of those deeds. Oh wait, they already did that.

Not to derail this thread, but this is fundamentally the reason why I think it's obvious that SVO will begin adding new resorts to the existing Sheraton Flex plan -- and possibly a new Westin Flex plan for the higher-end resorts -- but will stop selling them as individually deeded, or even individually "pointed" (i.e. WSJ-CV), ownerships.

I could be wrong, but I'm having a hard time coming up with a reason why...


----------



## SMHarman (Aug 20, 2015)

But why two separate 'flex'

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


----------



## tomandrobin (Aug 20, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Not that we know of - but there aren't any other resorts with an "Ocean Front" designation in the Starwood system.



Wasn't Lagunamar suppose to sell OF units in the last phase?


----------



## tomandrobin (Aug 20, 2015)

I don't own at any of the Maui Resorts, but I do think the change makes since.


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2015)

tomandrobin said:


> Wasn't Lagunamar suppose to sell OF units in the last phase?



That's right - completely forgot about that.  But they call them something else - Ocean Side?


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2015)

SMHarman said:


> But why two separate 'flex'
> 
> Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk



Because the Florida Resorts, SBP, and SDO are not in the same ball park - Maui owners would have a meltdown if you could buy Flexpoints in Orlando, and have Maui be one of your home resorts.


----------



## okwiater (Aug 20, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> That's right - completely forgot about that.  But they call them something else - Ocean Side?



Correct - WLR Oceanside.


----------



## tomandrobin (Aug 20, 2015)

okwiater said:


> Correct - WLR Oceanside.



With the new system, new company.....I can see a re-classification coming.


----------



## okwiater (Aug 20, 2015)

SMHarman said:


> But why two separate 'flex'



I don't agree with Denise that Maui owners having a "meltdown" is the reason for the likelihood of 2 separate Flex plans. However, I think it might make business sense to do so -- specifically because it gives SVO 2 separate price points for what is essentially the same product. In other words, even though a Sheraton Flex 148,100 package has the same trading power as a Westin Flex 148,100 package, the Westin Flex package will sell for a higher price because you will be purchasing home resort priority for the more premium resorts. (See WSJ-CV Diamond vs. Resort season for a similar methodology which was applied at the resort level).

Caveat: This is all speculation, and no official announcement has been made regarding Westin Flex, etc. etc.


----------



## SMHarman (Aug 20, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Because the Florida Resorts, SBP, and SDO are not in the same ball park - Maui owners would have a meltdown if you could buy Flexpoints in Orlando, and have Maui be one of your home resorts.


But you are no longer buying in Maui. You are buying into the trust. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2015)

> I don't agree with Denise that Maui owners having a "meltdown" is the reason for the likelihood of 2 separate Flex plans.


That's not what I said:

*This is why: * Because the Florida Resorts, SBP, and SDO are not in the same ball park. 
*
This would be owner's response:*  Maui owners would have a meltdown if you could buy Flexpoints in Orlando, and have Maui be one of your home resorts.


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2015)

SMHarman said:


> But you are no longer buying in Maui. You are buying into the trust.
> 
> Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk



Yes, but Florida Flex owners would be able to reserve Maui during the _home resort reservation window_ as their home resort.    I don't see how they can sell Florida and Hawaii for the same price.


----------



## SMHarman (Aug 20, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Yes, but Florida Flex owners would be able to reserve Maui during the _home resort reservation window_ as their home resort.    I don't see how they can sell Florida and Hawaii for the same price.


If they ponied up for 148 Or 178k flex points. More that they would own for their home resort week. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


----------



## VacationForever (Aug 21, 2015)

Based on my memory, Sheraton Flex is not cheap.  Vistana (Starwood) could simply adjust Home Option values required to book at each resort and view accordingly to normalize across all resorts.  No need to have both Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex, but to rename Sheraton Flex as Vistana Flex.


----------



## okwiater (Aug 21, 2015)

sptung said:


> Based on my memory, Sheraton Flex is not cheap.  Vistana (Starwood) could simply adjust Home Option values required to book at each resort and view accordingly to normalize across all resorts.  No need to have both Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex, but to rename Sheraton Flex as Vistana Flex.



Sheraton Flex is $51K for 148,100 options. But as I am speculating in this thread, it's all but certain there will be a separate points product.


----------



## LisaRex (Aug 21, 2015)

okwiater said:


> DeniseM, Ken555, DavidnRobin, sjsharkie, etc. -- not to say "I told you so," (well, maybe a little ) but I predicted this back in January: http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222406&p=1718003



However, I predicted it back in October 2013! (Oh, and let's forget the other prediction about WSJ possibly being available in II!)

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1538161&postcount=42

P.S.  I think it makes sense, however it makes less sense if OV and IV are lumped together.  While they're muddying the waters, why not make OV worth somewhere in between 148,100 and 176,700?


----------



## SMHarman (Aug 21, 2015)

There are special mathematical relationships between all these numbers. You are not going to get a number in the middle. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


----------



## alexadeparis (Aug 21, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Yes, but Florida Flex owners would be able to reserve Maui during the _home resort reservation window_ as their home resort.    I don't see how they can sell Florida and Hawaii for the same price.



I think they can do it by varying the numbers of points. For example if you buy 81,000 FO's you can get a 2 bedroom unit in Florida, but those same level of points only garners a 1 bedroom unit in Hawaii. I am not sure what the traditional pricing of a FL 2 Bed Plat vs HI 1 Bd Plat. But if they are similar, that is how I envision them overcoming that hurdle.


----------



## DavidnRobin (Aug 21, 2015)

y'all are a crack-up...

Even with implementation of a Flex system at Nanea - there is nothing in WKORV/N CCRs (unless they are amended) that allows a Flex System Owner to reserve at HomeResort period at 8-12 months, and thereby matching WKORV/N Owners Resort Ownership for location priority - unless they are getting these from SVO Owned VOIs at WKORV/N (and that only happens with what they already own or Owners giving up via ROFR/Trade-ins, etc). 

The sky is falling!

Right now OFD is running at $124K if bought from SVO - Nanea OF will need to match that price for equivalent SOs.


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 21, 2015)

David - That is exactly what we are talking about - Starwood is buying up inventory at WKORV-N/S for the Flex program.


----------



## SMHarman (Aug 21, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> David - That is exactly what we are talking about - Starwood is buying up inventory at WKORV-N/S for the Flex program.


Then those that spent 125k for 176k flex options will be able to book into NN OF at 12 month's. What's the big deal?  

If 81k options in Florida is $40k then 176k of the options is about $125 k so the buy in is the same. 

Same difference. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 21, 2015)

IMNSHO - Starwood is buying up inventory at WKORV-N&S to put in the Flex program, not just WKORV-NN.  

So Flex owners in the "Westin Flex Program," or "Hawaii Flex Program," will also be able to book the original resorts in the home resort period just like deeded owners.  

The more inventory that goes into the Flex program, the less availability there will be for deeded owners at the original resorts.

Is it a big deal?  Only time will tell.


----------



## lizap (Aug 21, 2015)

And less inventory for mandatory owners who want to use SOs to visit WKORV and WPORV.  Put another way, Starwood is screwing its loyal mandatory owners.  IMHO, this is really being mishandled by Starwood..  I think this is bordering on being a question of ethics (if the speculation is correct).  They should be upfront with us and let their loyal owners know what their plans are so we can decide what we want to do... We should at a minimum be allowed to buy into the FLEX program. While I know you are not guaranteed anything other than your week, Starwood promotes and has promoted SOs has a way to visit other resorts, which is a big reason we purchased 148,000 SOs at WKV..  




DeniseM said:


> IMNSHO - Starwood is buying up inventory at WKORV-N&S to put in the Flex program, not just WKORV-NN.
> 
> So Flex owners in the "Westin Flex Program," or "Hawaii Flex Program," will also be able to book the original resorts in the home resort period just like deeded owners.
> 
> ...


----------



## taterhed (Aug 21, 2015)

Unless they end up making a conciliatory offer to owners of mandatory resorts who are grandfathered in prior to xxxx
Indeed that is how I think it will play out. The only question is, is it worth making a bet on the property?￼


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## VacationForever (Aug 21, 2015)

I had attended a couple of owner updates where the sale people said that Starwood regretted designating and selling resorts that were mandatory.  I think they would love to make mandatory resorts less attractive if they can.


----------



## lizap (Aug 22, 2015)

It is becoming increasingly apparent that Starwood does NOT have a cohesive strategic plan for its TS division.  The fact that they are spinning it off (to sell it) is very telling.




sptung said:


> I had attended a couple of owner updates where the sale people said that Starwood regretted designating and selling resorts that were mandatory.  I think they would love to make mandatory resorts less attractive if they can.


----------



## pacman (Aug 22, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Yes - because they are rare, and they are prized as inexpensive units that can be requalified for 148,100.  Not all 1-52 floating 2 bdms. qualify for 148,100 Staroptions - only the Plat weeks.



They aren't that rare.  There have been 2 listed on TUG recently, including mine. EOY.
There were also a couple listed on Redweek last time I checked.

pacman


----------



## sjsharkie (Aug 22, 2015)

pacman said:


> They aren't that rare.  There have been 2 listed on TUG recently, including mine. EOY.
> There were also a couple listed on Redweek last time I checked.
> 
> pacman


You missed Denise's point.  There is a big difference between EOY and EY.  SDO Plat Plus EYs are much more scarce because they are the optimal property to requalify -- low mfs and relatively low purchase price.

No one in their right mind wants to requal EOY units -- hence the lesser demand and larger supply in the marketplace.

-ryan


----------



## SueDonJ (Aug 22, 2015)

lizap said:


> It is becoming increasingly apparent that Starwood does NOT have a cohesive strategic plan for its TS division.  The fact that they are spinning it off (to sell it) is very telling.



One thing that was and is still very helpful to us Marriott owners is that TUGger dioxide45 found the legal filings for the Trust shortly after Marriott established its Points system, and keeps up with the ongoing conveyances to it (Recorded Trust Documents.)  It could also help you Starwood folks if one of your legal minds could find your similar docs.

From the outside looking in, it seems to me that the Starwood spin-off to Vistana reflects protection for the timeshares because haven't they announced - or aren't there trade rumors - that it's only the hotel business that's on the market?  Are there indications that they're also shopping the Vistana spin-off?


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 22, 2015)

pacman said:


> They aren't that rare.  There have been 2 listed on TUG recently, including mine. EOY.
> There were also a couple listed on Redweek last time I checked.
> 
> pacman



Clarification:  The EOY deeds don't requalify for 148,100 Staroptions, so they are not desirable for requalifying. 

To requalify 2 EOY deeds, you'd have to buy 2 timeshares from Starwood for a minimum of $20K each.

The 2 Bdm. *EY* Plat deeds requalify for 148,100 Staroptions and they are popular with people looking to requalify, because of their low MF, and you'd only have to buy one deed from Starwood to requalify.


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 22, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> One thing that was and is still very helpful to us Marriott owners is that TUGger dioxide45 found the legal filings for the Trust shortly after Marriott established its Points system, and keeps up with the ongoing conveyances to it (Recorded Trust Documents.)  It could also help you Starwood folks if one of your legal minds could find your similar docs.



The Hawaii Flex Program is not in active sales yet, because they are early in construction, so there may not be anything filed yet.

The earlier announcement of the original Flex program only included the Florida resorts, Sheraton Broadway Plantation, and Sheraton Desert Oasis.


----------



## dioxide45 (Aug 25, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> One thing that was and is still very helpful to us Marriott owners is that TUGger dioxide45 found the legal filings for the Trust shortly after Marriott established its Points system, and keeps up with the ongoing conveyances to it (Recorded Trust Documents.)  It could also help you Starwood folks if one of your legal minds could find your similar docs.
> 
> From the outside looking in, it seems to me that the Starwood spin-off to Vistana reflects protection for the timeshares because haven't they announced - or aren't there trade rumors - that it's only the hotel business that's on the market?  Are there indications that they're also shopping the Vistana spin-off?



Here is the trust document for the Sheraton Flex Trust.

http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagl...16.pdf?id=DOC1666S7071.A0&parent=DOC1666S7071

Notice/Declaration (never saw this for Marriott)
http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagl...17.pdf?id=DOC1666S7072.A0&parent=DOC1666S7072

There are conveyance docs out there too. I am on an iPad, so digging those out isn't easy. I may get to it later, but in the mean time, one can search on the Orange County Florida Comptrollers page for Grantee="CHICAGO TITLE TIMESHARE LAND TRUST INC FLEX VACATIONS OWNERS ASSOCIATION INC " or Grantor="SHERATON FLEX VACATIONS LLC" for "Notice" document types.


----------



## GregT (Aug 25, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> Here is the trust document for the Sheraton Flex Trust.
> 
> http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagl...16.pdf?id=DOC1666S7071.A0&parent=DOC1666S7071
> 
> ...



Good work Dioxide -- it's amazing the stuff you can find on the internet.

Best,

Greg


----------



## GregT (Aug 25, 2015)

All,

Is Scottsdale Pinnacle the original name for Sheraton Desert Oasis?

I only found approx 10 notices conveying weeks to the Trust, and they were all for SBP or Scottsdale Pinnacle.  There may be others, but that's all I could find.

Interesting to see the Marriott strategy now playing out in the Starwood world.  I do wonder if resale Voluntary purchases will have an entry option to play in the new program.  Interesting.

Best,

Greg


----------



## SueDonJ (Aug 25, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> Here is the trust document for the Sheraton Flex Trust.
> 
> http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagl...16.pdf?id=DOC1666S7071.A0&parent=DOC1666S7071
> 
> ...



As much as what you initially found when you found it helped us Marriott folks after the DC was established, it would have helped that much more if we'd known to look for and review the docs earlier in the process.  And it certainly helps us that you're continuing to search out Marriott-related items.

This is what I was trying to get across to the Starwood folks ... and I guess it's no surprise that you're at the helm.


----------



## krj9999 (Aug 25, 2015)

Yes, Scottsdale Pinnacle is the original name for SDO.

Interesting is the maximum price per point declaration:

<<Trust Developer guarantees to each Owner, through December 31, 2016, that the total annual Assessment will not exceed $0.01484 per Ownership Point for Vacation Ownership Interests other than Biennial Vacation Ownership Interests>>


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 25, 2015)

GregT said:


> I do wonder if resale Voluntary purchases will have an entry option to play in the new program.  Interesting.



Probably like requalifying a resale:  buy a new Flexoption ownership from the developer at full retail, and grandfather in your existing ownership into the Flexoption program.

Win-win for Starwood - make a full-priced sale, and add 2 weeks to their Flexoption inventory.


----------



## pchung6 (Aug 25, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Win-win for Starwood - make a full-priced sale, and add 2 weeks to their Flexoption inventory.



It doesn't sound too good to me.  As SVN owner just purchased from developer less than a year ago, now they are selling something new that I cannot participate.  I just don't sit well with that.


----------



## DeniseM (Aug 25, 2015)

pchung6 said:


> It doesn't sound too good to me.  As SVN owner just purchased from developer less than a year ago, now they are selling something new that I cannot participate.  I just don't sit well with that.



Since you own a deeded week - you can still reserve your deeded week.  You don't need the Flex System.


----------



## tschwa2 (Aug 25, 2015)

Unless they add something really decent into the trust, you are better off not in the Sheraton Flex.  New doesn't mean better.  It's just a repackage of unsold lower season weeks and some reacquired high and mid level weeks at resorts that you don't need home week advantage.  In many cases the MF's per point will be higher than if you bought a non trust week at the same resorts.


----------

