# Shocking News About Marriott Resales



## BocaBoy (Jul 28, 2010)

*I am stunned*.  As many of you know from my other posts, I have been generally positive on the new points program but have had some concern about how it will affect resales.  I was thus totally unprepared for what I just learned this afternoon from an executive at MVCI headquarters.  I have decided not to post his name only because he has always been very straight with me and good to me.  Here is what he told me, after checking at the highest levels, including the Chief Customer Officer:

All the language in the documents (e.g., Paragraph D on page 13 of the Exchange Procedures document) mean exactly what I have been saying, namely that weeks purchasers have the right to join.  However, other parts of the documents give Marriott flexibility to not apply these provisions.  And buried in the fine print of what we sign when we enroll (in the E-mail, not the official documents) is language that says MVEC reserves the right to only offer participation in the program through an enrollment agreement to owners who purchased their timeshare through an *Approved Broker*. (Paragraph 5(o) of the enrollment E-Mail.)

*It gets worse*.  Marriott does not consider Marriott Resales to be an Approved Broker.  They have no Approved Brokers.  Marriott is the developer, but they are not selling the resale weeks--Marriott Resales is.  Therefore, *NO NEW WEEKS PURCHASERS CAN JOIN, EVEN IF PURCHASED AT DEVELOPER PRICES THROUGH MARRIOTT RESALES. * I bought my weeks from Marriott, but even if I sell them through Marriott, they will not allow the purchaser to join.

I asked why.  He openly and honestly told me that Marriott was concerned that allowing ANY resale purchasers to join would "cannibalize the points sales, which is what we are now emphasizing and where Marriott will make the most money."

So I brought up these questions because I was concerned that private resale purchasers could not join, and I found out that even purchasers of weeks from Marriott were being shafted.

I am now forced to conclude that all of you who have been ascribing evil motives to Marriott were right.


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## windje2000 (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> *I am stunned*.  As many of you know from my other posts, I have been generally positive on the new points program but have had some concern about how it will affect resales.  I was thus totally unprepared for what I just learned this afternoon from an executive at MVCI headquarters.  Here it is:
> 
> All the language in the documents (e.g., Paragraph D on page 13 of the Exchange Procedures document) mean exactly what I have been saying, namely that weeks purchasers have the right to join.  However, other parts of the documents give Marriott flexibility to not apply these provisions.  And buried in the fine print of what we sign when we enroll (in the E-mail, not the official documents) is language that says MVEC reserves the right to only offer participation in the program through an enrollment agreement to owners who purchased their timeshare through an *Approved Broker*. (Paragraph 5(o) of the enrollment E-Mail.
> 
> ...




Marriott Resales is not a Marriott approved broker.   A new low! 

BocaBoy - Welcome to the land of black helicopters  (Better late than never)


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## LAX Mom (Jul 28, 2010)

I posted this information back in June but nobody seemed very concerned about future resales at that point. I definitely recall a phone conversation the first day of the new points program and asked about future resales. Would they be allowed to join the points system? What about points purchased from Marriott, can they be sold to a 3rd party and then enroll in the points program? If not then the resale value of Marriott points is essentially worthless. 

The rep put me on hold several times and finally concluded what you have posted. Currently Marriott has nothing set up to handle resale points purchases. They don't have a dept to sell these points, and haven't yet approved an arrangement with a broker to handel the sell of Marriott points. I was told they intend to set something up in the future, but there is no current option for someone who purchased points on June 21 and now wants to sell. 

Would you spend $40,000-50,000 to purchase something with no option to sell if if your circumstances change and you don't want to pay MF's anymore?


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## Kona Lovers (Jul 28, 2010)

Thanks for the update.


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## DeniseM (Jul 28, 2010)

It sounds like they have taken a page from Starwood's book.  Except for a handful of resorts, Starwood resales aren't allowed in Starwood's points  program (Staroptions.)  

Be forewarned that this two level system has devastated the Starwood resale market.  

Perfect example - 

Starwood's Maui resorts are allowed in the program, and they are selling for around $15k for a 2 bdm.

Starwoods (newer) Kauai resort is not allowed in the program and a 2 bdm. unit recently sold on ebay for less than $1,000.


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## foreverloves (Jul 28, 2010)

*Won't Marriott snap up the resale weeks on ROFR?*

I am stunned, yet not shocked (if there's a difference...)  What reason does Marriott have to operate these two "pools" of owners (weeks owners who cannot convert to points) and actual points owners (whether they are legacy converted points or purchased "new" points)?  Won't Marriott just start snapping up outstanding resale weeks with ROFR in order to eliminate the resale market and the weeks owners?  I just watched a HP week go for $1.  I know I'm not alone here in seeing that.  Not sure if that will pass ROFR, but, if this truly tanks all Marriott resales, won't Marriott just dry up the resale market?

It wouldn't cost them much in most cases to take these weeks on ROFR.  It just sounds to me like Marriott doesn't want to operate these two pools - somewhere, some way, Marriott is going to make the sales of weeks stop.  If they don't even classify THEIR OWN BROKERAGE FIRM as an "authorized reseller", I think there's no hope.

Wow.  Thanks Marriott.  We used to love you for hotels and such...now I don't know if I'll even bother taking my MIL's Silver Barony Week that she is DYING to GIVE to me!


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## DanCali (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> *I am stunned*.  As many of you know from my other posts, I have been generally positive on the new points program but have had some concern about how it will affect resales.  I was thus totally unprepared for what I just learned this afternoon from an executive at MVCI headquarters.  I have decided not to post his name only because he has always been very straight with me and good to me.  Here is what he told me, after checking at the highest levels, including the Chief Customer Officer:
> 
> All the language in the documents (e.g., Paragraph D on page 13 of the Exchange Procedures document) mean exactly what I have been saying, namely that weeks purchasers have the right to join.  However, other parts of the documents give Marriott flexibility to not apply these provisions.  And buried in the fine print of what we sign when we enroll (in the E-mail, not the official documents) is language that says MVEC reserves the right to only offer participation in the program through an enrollment agreement to owners who purchased their timeshare through an *Approved Broker*. (Paragraph 5(o) of the enrollment E-Mail.)
> 
> ...



Thanks for following up on my request to name the "Approved Brokers".

Welcome to the club of disenfranchised owners. Unfortunately, it's growing by the day...


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## thetangs (Jul 28, 2010)

Say it's not so Joe!   :annoyed:


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## DanCali (Jul 28, 2010)

foreverloves said:


> I am stunned, yet not shocked (if there's a difference...)  What reason does Marriott have to operate these two "pools" of owners (weeks owners who cannot convert to points) and actual points owners (whether they are legacy converted points or purchased "new" points)?  Won't Marriott just start snapping up outstanding resale weeks with ROFR in order to eliminate the resale market and the weeks owners?



They don't have to. There are much cheaper ways to obtain full control of the inventory without spending hundreds of millions on buying weeks and take on MF obligations... I don't have to tell you that those way will come at the expense of owners privileges. While they cannot hurt your deeded rights to reserve a week in your season, how about if they just retain control of weeks going into II? Add that to the "deposit first" into the points exchange and Viola - 100% control of exchanged inventory. They could care less if resale prices go negative as a result of their policies.


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## LAX Mom (Jul 28, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Starwoods (newer) Kauai resort is not allowed in the program and a 2 bdm. unit recently sold on ebay for less than $1,000.



Wow, that is an incredibly low price for the Westin Kauai. We stayed there last Feb. and it is a beautiful property with stunning views of the ocean. The units are new and very well designed. When you consider what Starwood charges for these units it's very sad to see one sell for that price. I would never buy there because of the MF's  (can't recall exactly but they are between $2,000 and $2,500) but it would be a great place to visit once a year.

I think it always bugged Marriott that people were able to purchase a unit on the resale market for 50% or less of what Marriott charged. The only difference was the ability to exchange for MR points but there was a huge disparity in price. The sales reps knew if you had already purchased a resale they were not likely to sell you a developer week. So Marriott figured out a way to make resales less attractive to everyone.


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## thetangs (Jul 28, 2010)

DanCali said:


> They could care less if resale prices go negative as a result of their policies.



But can't Marriott recognize that that is really NOT in their best interests?  Consumers are more educated than ever thanks in large part to the internet and groups like TUG.  One of the only reasons I was ever willing to even buy Marriott in the first place was the fairly stable resale market.  Wow to see Marriott go the way of Fairfield, makes no sense at all.


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## tombo (Jul 28, 2010)

foreverloves said:


> It wouldn't cost them much in most cases to take these weeks on ROFR.  It just sounds to me like Marriott doesn't want to operate these two pools - somewhere, some way, Marriott is going to make the sales of weeks stop.  If they don't even classify THEIR OWN BROKERAGE FIRM as an "authorized reseller", I think there's no hope.
> 
> Wow.  Thanks Marriott.  We used to love you for hotels and such...now I don't know if I'll even bother taking my MIL's Silver Barony Week that she is DYING to GIVE to me!



Marriott will not ROFR these weeks because they already own too much inventory. To ROFR weeks would make Marriott responsible for MF's on  all the weeks they ROFR, and they don't want to own any more inventory until they have depleted their own current huge inventory by selling a lot of points.

Right now owners will have a hard time selling their weeks with Marriott salesmen explaining to all that will listen that points is the new thing and anything that someone buys resale can NEVER become points. 

So weeks will sell for $1 and many weeks will be deeded back to and repo'd by the resorts. Of course Marriott doesn't care because they designed this program to devalue resale weeks while making points the new valuable marriott currency. So far they are succeeding because resale prices keep falling and with all of the uncertainty. Few with knowledge of the current situation want to risk buying what might be a dying product (weeks). 

No way to resell points other than through a possible future broker, no way to convert deeded non points weeks to points, no buy back program offered by Marriott, no help at all for any who currently own weeks that were purchased retail or resale. Marriott is happy that they are killing the value of what they sold for decades, the product they sold us. What a great company.


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## windje2000 (Jul 28, 2010)

thetangs said:


> But can't Marriott recognize that that is really NOT in their best interests?  Consumers are more educated than ever thanks in large part to the internet and groups like TUG.  One of the only reasons I was ever willing to even buy Marriott in the first place was the fairly stable resale market.  Wow to see Marriott go the way of Fairfield, makes no sense at all.



It is clearly in Marriott's best interest . . . if they can buy weeks for a few hundred dollars, and sell/contribute them to the trust at a point equivalent value and pocket the point value.  Makes buying cheaper than building.  All indications are that this plan is to do exactly that.

It is not in your best interest if they do that.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 28, 2010)

How did your contact interpret this statement:

"In addition, Exchange Company has the right to restrict use of any Base Plus Exchange Benefits and Special Benefits offered by Exchange Company to certain Members, including, without limitation, only to those Members who (i) purchase an Interest from or through an “Approved Broker” which includes: (a) *the developer of the Member’s Affiliate Program or Component*; or (b) such other entity approved by Exchange Company, from time to time; . . ."

What "fine print" did he point you to?  Don't see any fine print.  It looks to be all the same size to me, and there is nothing beyond that statement (which appears in the EXCHANGE PROCEDURES FOR MARRIOTT VACATION CLUB DESTINATIONS EXCHANGE PROGRAM document); 

and this statement:

"In addition, Exchange Company reserves the right to restrict the offering or use of any Base Plus Exchange Benefits and Exchange Benefits to certain Members, including, without limitation, allowing use of such Exchange Benefits only to those Members who purchase their Interests from an Approved Broker . . . "

(which appears in the DISCLOSURE GUIDE FOR MARRIOTT VACATION CLUB DESTINATIONS EXCHANGE PROGRAM document.)

How did he define "approved broker"?


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## DanCali (Jul 28, 2010)

thetangs said:


> But can't Marriott recognize that that is really NOT in their best interests?  Consumers are more educated than ever thanks in large part to the internet and groups like TUG.  One of the only reasons I was ever willing to even buy Marriott in the first place was the fairly stable resale market.  Wow to see Marriott go the way of Fairfield, makes no sense at all.



Maybe they have concluded that decimating the resale market is in their best interest... For example, it just strengthens their argument that weeks are a thing of the past.

If I had to be less dramatic about it, I don't think resale prices are going to zero. The situation is different than Starwood.

With Starwood a resale buyer does have the option to buy at 5-6 mandatory resorts (have points) or 15 or so voluntary resorts (no points). Since many resale buyers went to a developer presentation, they are likely predisposed to buy points. This reduces demand for voluntary resorts and affects those prices.

With Marriott, all resorts are in the same boat. They are all, borrowing a term from Starwood, "voluntary". Since the current choice is pay a developer $40K for 4000 points or buy a deeded week where you want to go for $5K-$15K, an educated resale buyer will likely pick weeks. And since they can do what weeks could do prior to June 20, resale prices will be relatively stable.

I believe the two main things that could adversely affect weeks resale prices are: (i) trading opportunities in II drying up (which I don't subscribe to those gloom and doom scenarios, but Marriott obviously want us to believe that) (ii) the price and restrictions on resale Marriott points. Once the choice is between resale weeks or resale points it becomes a scenario more similar to Starwood. If Marriott point resale prices stay above $5 (and now you can argue Marriott has an interest to keep them as high as possible - but they don't have the DVC history on that front), I think weeks resale prices will be ok. Otherwise they won't...


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## tombo (Jul 28, 2010)

thetangs said:


> But can't Marriott recognize that that is really NOT in their best interests?  Consumers are more educated than ever thanks in large part to the internet and groups like TUG.  One of the only reasons I was ever willing to even buy Marriott in the first place was the fairly stable resale market.  Wow to see Marriott go the way of Fairfield, makes no sense at all.



It makes perfect business sense. They want buyers to read that Marriott is  no longer selling or promoting weeks sales. They want potential buyers to find out that eveything that Marriott is supporting, selling, and focusing on from this point forward is points. The more people that know the situation, the better able they are to sell points for big bucks while devaluing weeks resales to the point at which they are almost worthless. And whether you bought retail or resale, no matter whether you convert your week(s) to points or not, you can't sell your week to someone and give them the ability to convert it to points unless they buy your week from a non existent broker and pay at least $2000.

Marriott did not spend years developing this system without knowing exactly what they were doing. They are knocking out the competition (resale weeks we own) while creating need, demand, and value in what they own and they are selling (points). This is not an oversight or mistake, this is a marketing plan to increase Marriott sales at the expense of all current owners. Thanks again Marriott for rewarding customer loyalty with a kick in the teeth.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 28, 2010)

LAX Mom said:


> . . .
> I think it always bugged Marriott that people were able to purchase a unit on the resale market for 50% or less of what Marriott charged. The only difference was the ability to exchange for MR points but there was a huge disparity in price. The sales reps knew if you had already purchased a resale they were not likely to sell you a developer week. So Marriott figured out a way to make resales less attractive to everyone.



This I agree with.  I have ran into a few Marriott sales people who obviously hate resales.  And I do mean "hate".  I have received some real venom from certain sales people at Marriott.  The most recent was when I first called about the points program.  When I started talking about resales, this woman snapped telling me that I should not expect any favorable treatment from Marriott since I bought my resale so cheap.  I could tell from the tone of her voice, that she could have almost engaged in violence over the issue.

So, I would not be surprised by what the OP has posted.  But, even so, I am not sure he was correct based upon their own documents.  I was told by someone at Marriott that "approved broker" essentially meant Marriott itself.  That guy might just be one of those resale haters at Marriott, and spewed out the same venom as the rest of them do.


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## BocaBoy (Jul 28, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> How did your contact interpret this statement:
> 
> "In addition, Exchange Company has the right to restrict use of any Base Plus Exchange Benefits and Special Benefits offered by Exchange Company to certain Members, including, without limitation, only to those Members who (i) purchase an Interest from or through an “Approved Broker” which includes: (a) *the developer of the Member’s Affiliate Program or Component*; or (b) such other entity approved by Exchange Company, from time to time; . . ."
> 
> ...



1) He said:  Marriott Exchange Company is not the developer.  It is a separate corporation.

2) Fine print are my words, not his.  It is Paragraph 5(o) in the acceptance E-Mail.  He clearly stated that it is not in any of the official docyuments you can click on.

3) The last statement you referenced would be true IF they decide to offer the right to join, but they are not offering it because there is no approved broker.

4) Marriott could decide to name Marriott Resales as an approved broker, but they have not because they are afraid it would "cannibalize points sales."

Unbelievable, isn't it?


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## pharmgirl (Jul 28, 2010)

we have Hawaii developer purchased [deeded] weeks and have NO intention to join the points program

So we will continue using our weeks, occasionally locking off and trading the efficiency

We could pass these weeks to our children but will more likely sell  So we could still sell our weeks but this means these weeks could be
1. used by new buyer
2 traded through II
3 traded through other exchange company

BUT not exchanged within the Marriott points system

is this correct?

still not seeing any benefit and a money downside for us to go to new program


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## bobcat (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> 1) He said:  Marriott Exchange Company is not the developer.  It is a separate corporation.
> 
> 2) Fine print are my words, not his.  It is Paragraph 5(o) in the acceptance E-Mail.  He clearly stated that it is not in any of the official docyuments you can click on.
> 
> ...



It is a bad day when you pay say 60,000.00 for two weeks a direct sale from Marriott and now they will not allow resales to join the points program.  Keep your weeks and do not join points. They need to hear from weeks owners who rate them an F. Their best salesmen were their owners. Not any more.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 28, 2010)

LAX Mom said:


> I posted this information back in June but nobody seemed very concerned about future resales at that point. . . .



Don't say "nobody".  I cannot remember how long ago it was that I was posting a lot of stuff about how I felt Marriott was out to kill resales.  Anyone remember how some developer purchasers at that time seemed to be unsympathic?  Well, killing resales does not just hurt resale purchasers.  It also hurts developer purchasers.  In fact, it hurts them more because they have a bigger investment to lose.  If the OP post were to turn out to be true (and I'm skeptical it is), we might someday get to the point where you will not even be able to give a Marriott week away.  Who would want to be saddled with the MFs and not be able to get into the new program if and when Marriott II weeks begin diminishing?


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## dbbk94404 (Jul 28, 2010)

> I think it always bugged Marriott that people were able to purchase a unit on the resale market for 50% or less of what Marriott charged. The only difference was the ability to exchange for MR points but there was a huge disparity in price. The sales reps knew if you had already purchased a resale they were not likely to sell you a developer week. So Marriott figured out a way to make resales less attractive to everyone.



At least there was *a* difference before, now we're all in the same stinky sinking ship    The more I find out about the new system,  the more depressed I get (maybe finding TUG wasn't good afterall  ) . I need a vacation now - just not at a Marriott. 

p.s.
Sorry I don't have anything constructive to add


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## tombo (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> 1) He said:  Marriott Exchange Company is not the developer.  It is a separate corporation.
> 
> 2) Fine print are my words, not his.  It is Paragraph 5(o) in the acceptance E-Mail.  He clearly stated that it is not in any of the official docyuments you can click on.
> 
> ...



You are loving it aren't you? Many of us are almost positive you are a Marriott salesman. I bet you got your new sales training today and this was the new talking point to overcome the "resales are so much cheaper than retail" objection. It has to be much easier to sell points when weeks resale prices are destroyed by Marriott in writing. This has to be some of the best news Marriott salesmen ever received. I bet every salesman has a copy of the rules showing that resales can't become points in their folder in case someone mentions resales. When ya'll go out tonight drink a beer for me. Your beer is to celebrate, the beer you drink for me is to help me get over my anger over the screw job Marriott put on it's owners with the launch of points.

This is very good for Marriott point sales, very good for Marriott salesman's commissions, but very bad for current owners if they ever need/want to sell.  Marriott wins at current owner's expense. All is right in Marriott world.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 28, 2010)

Deleted top portion.  Misread the quoted post.



BocaBoy said:


> Unbelievable, isn't it?



Yep.  While I am not now planning to sell my timeshare, I am skeptical of his accuracy.  He might just be the typical Marriott resale hater delivering all of their typical anti-resale bull.


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## BocaBoy (Jul 28, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Yeah, but it mentions "approved broker" being the *developer* of your affiliate program or component.  Last time I remember, it was NOT the exchange company that was the developer of my component.  I do believe it was Marriott.
> 
> 
> Yep.  While I am not now planning to sell my timeshare, I am skeptical of his accuracy.  He might just be the typical Marriott resale hater delivering all of their typical anti-resale bull.



But you can no longer buy weeks from the developer.  The developer is only selling points.  You would buy from Resale Operations.  (A separate legal entity.)

It is underhanded and sneaky.  The developer is an Approved Broker but the developer sells no more weeks.

No, he is not a resale hater.  And my conversation dealt with INTERNAL resales.


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## BocaBoy (Jul 28, 2010)

tombo said:


> You are loving it aren't you? Many of us are almost positive you are a Marriott salesman. I bet you got your new sales training today and this was the new talking point to overcome the "resales are so much cheaper than retail" objection. It has to be much easier to sell points when weeks resale prices are destroyed by Marriott in writing. This has to be some of the best news Marriott salesmen ever received. I bet every salesman has a copy of the rules showing that resales can't become points in their folder in case someone mentions resales. When ya'll go out tonight drink a beer for me. Your beer is to celebrate, the beer you drink for me is to help me get over my anger over the screw job Marriott put on it's owners with the launch of points.
> 
> This is very good for Marriott sales, very good for Marriott salesman's commissions, but really  bad for current owners. All is right in Marriott world.



Wow!  I post news like this that completely changed my opinion of Marriott and the new program for the worse and you think I am a Marriott salesman?  

Especially when I am only talking about resales through Marriott, which are limited to 20 or so resorts.  I am #1 on the Waiohai sales list and it has not sold in two months.  So they cannot be selling many through Resale Operations.

My post does not even address that fact that future private resales are excluded from enrolling in the points program.  (Marriott Resales sells at full developer prices, in case you did not know.)


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## Cindala (Jul 28, 2010)

_Edited to delete post that violated the "Be Courteous" posting rule._ 

Dave M
BBS Moderator


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## GregT (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Wow!  I post news like this that completely changed my opinion of Marriott and the new program for the worse and you think I am a Marriott salesman?



BocaBoy,

No offense intended, but yes, we think you are a Marriott salesman (and have for a long time).  But we welcome your posts as it's interesting to see what Marriott is saying.  Thanks for the scoop on the resales.

All the best,

Greg


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## SueDonJ (Jul 28, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Don't say "nobody".  I cannot remember how long ago it was that I was posting a lot of stuff about how I felt Marriott was out to kill resales.  Anyone remember how some developer purchasers at that time seemed to be unsympathic?  Well, killing resales does not just hurt resale purchasers.  It also hurts developer purchasers.  In fact, it hurts them more because they have a bigger investment to lose.  If the OP post were to turn out to be true (and I'm skeptical it is), we might someday get to the point where you will not even be able to give a Marriott week away.  Who would want to be saddled with the MFs and not be able to get into the new program if and when Marriott II weeks begin diminishing?



I've always looked at it as, Marriott does whatever it has to do to protect its own interests, and as long as Weeks owners get what they're entitled to in the governing docs then Marriott won't do anything extra to protect owners' interests.  They never have - not with ROFR, not with their selective Resale Ops offers, not with any facet of weeks ownerships.

But that doesn't automatically translate to me as a developer purchaser being "unsympathetic" to resale buyers, or in any way thinking that they're "getting the shaft deservedly" (paraphrased, I know nobody has said it but the sentiment works.)  You're exactly right, we all lose if the resale market isn't propped up in some fashion.  Maybe this sort of thing is just a little bit easier for developer purchasers to accept because we've known right from the start that we'd never realize anywhere near the monetary value if we sold?  I dunno, but I hate that these discussions always come back around to developer purchasers somehow being thought of as smug or hoping that resale buyers suffer.  That's not my intent, has never been.  

I am surprised that they're saying now that the resales they process through their own Resale Operations won't be allowed to join the Points system.  Sure it makes sense from their perspective, which is to generate all sales through the new product, but it's still surprising.  The only saving grace, and admittedly it's a teeny-tiny little itty-bitty one, is that the documents allow for that to change IF it ever becomes Marriott's interest to allow their resales to enroll.


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## LAX Mom (Jul 28, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Don't say "nobody".  I cannot remember how long ago it was that I was posting a lot of stuff about how I felt Marriott was out to kill resales.  Anyone remember how some developer purchasers at that time seemed to be unsympathic?  Well, killing resales does not just hurt resale purchasers.  It also hurts developer purchasers.  In fact, it hurts them more because they have a bigger investment to lose.  If the OP post were to turn out to be true (and I'm skeptical it is), we might someday get to the point where you will not even be able to give a Marriott week away.  Who would want to be saddled with the MFs and not be able to get into the new program if and when Marriott II weeks begin diminishing?



Sorry, I didn't really mean nobody! 

I just recall posting about this on June 21 after I had a long call with Marriott about the future of resales but the information I was given seemed to get buried under other concerns about the new program. 

I was stunned that Marriott was trying to sell these point packages (starting at $9,200 and going up) but had no plan for resales of these points. I remember asking the Marriott rep, "you mean to tell me that I can buy points for you today, then if I decide in Sept I want to sell them there is no approved way to sell them and have the points transfer to a new owner." He put me on hold and came back to tell me they would likely have a resale program in the future, but currently have nothing!!

Guess it never occurred to Marriott that someone might want to sell these precious points someday!


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## tombo (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Wow!  I post news like this that completely changed my opinion of Marriott and the new program for the worse and you think I am a Marriott salesman?
> 
> Especially when I am only talking about resales through Marriott, which are limited to 20 or so resorts.  I am #1 on the Waiohai sales list and it has not sold in two months.  So they cannot be selling many through Resale Operations.
> 
> My post does not even address that fact that future private resales are excluded from enrolling in the points program.  (Marriott Resales sells at full developer prices, in case you did not know.)



If I am wrong I apologize. In the past myself and several others asked you if you were a Marriott salesman and you never answered. Most of your posts up to this thread (and possibly including this one) could have been written by Marriott marketing IMO. Read your own past posts and find one that wasn't defending Marriott and the new program.

Yes you just posted showing what Marriott did to current owners who try to sell their weeks, and you point out that resale weeks will not ever be a part of the points program,  but besides saying Marriott killed weeks resale values it can also be construed as a selling point for points. I have been in sales for years myself and the fact that you side with someone against the company does not mean that you aren't doing it to make a sale. In a car lot the salesman says I can't believe my manager s being such a jerk, I am on your side, I think your trade is worth more than that. Translation I feel your pain, now buy this car. 

I still feel you are a Marriott salesman, and I still feel that this thread is something you couldn't wait to post to help hurt resales while making points more valuable. JMO..


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## hotcoffee (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> But you can no longer buy weeks from the developer.  The developer is only selling points.  You would buy from Resale Operations.  (A separate legal entity.) . . .



One of the reasons I am skeptical of his claim is that they will need to be able to sell their own resales.  How are they going to sell them if anyone can get similar weeks through external brokers or ebay at a fraction of the price they are going to charge?  They are going to need an incentive to entice people to buy from them.

Maybe your contact is referring to the current resale program.  My understanding is that later in the year Marriott plans to roll out a new resale program.  It would be hard to believe that they would start a new program up if they are going to handicap it so much before it even begins.


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## ldanna (Jul 28, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> It sounds like they have taken a page from Starwood's book.  Except for a handful of resorts, Starwood resales aren't allowed in Starwood's points  program (Staroptions.)
> 
> Be forewarned that this two level system has devastated the Starwood resale market.
> 
> ...



Just a Marriott owner asking about Starwood: Does the devastation of the resale market improved Starwood sales?

BTW: It took almost 1 month to experienced Tugers to figure out that legacy owners can't access Trust inventory. Now 1 month and 10 days to figure out that there is (and won't be) any authorized reseller. So I guess there's a lot more to come.


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## tlwmkw (Jul 28, 2010)

*Bargain hunters should be happy*

This will hurt at resorts where people have bought just to use for trading but to my mind if you are buying a week at a resort that you want to stay at each year then why would you care?  It will mean that there will be some very inexpensive weeks that will be available to those that wish to purchase to use.  Marriott has basically said that they won't be building or buying by ROFR for some time (at least that's what Arne Sorensen said in the message to shareholders) so there will be some very low prices to anyone who wants to buy.  I think Marriott is being very foolish and looking to boost share prices short term and not build a sustainable product.  Look how DVC prices have held up- they have dropped a little but not nearly as much as you might expect in the current economy.  DVC treat their customers well and build a huge fan base- Marriott is blind to this and will reap the rewards (or lack thereof).

tlwmkw


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## pipet (Jul 28, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Maybe this sort of thing is just a little bit easier for developer purchasers to accept because we've known right from the start that we'd never realize anywhere near the monetary value if we sold?
> 
> I am surprised that they're saying now that the resales they process through their own Resale Operations won't be allowed to join the Points system.  Sure it makes sense from their perspective, which is to generate all sales through the new product, but it's still surprising.  The only saving grace, and admittedly it's a teeny-tiny little itty-bitty one, is that the documents allow for that to change IF it ever becomes Marriott's interest to allow their resales to enroll.



Actually I feel as a developer owner I lose even more money upon resale, but either way, the loss in valuation for resales hurts the value of all the weeks, no matter how they were purchased.

I am not surprised at all by the news that resales from external sources aren't allowed in, but I am surprised that even when buying from Marriott, you're out.  

Starwood has some nice $1 weeks now - wonder how long it will take to see that in Marriott.  Why did Marriott have to copy the worst point system?   Wonder what else they will copy (like not letting you pick your week for II deposits)?


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## GregT (Jul 28, 2010)

tlwmkw said:


> This will hurt at resorts where people have bought just to use for trading but to my mind if you are buying a week at a resort that you want to stay at each year then why would you care?  It will mean that there will be some very inexpensive weeks that will be available to those that wish to purchase to use.



I think this is the right way to look at this -- I never really worried alot about the resale value of my units and I thought it would be difficult post June 20th to get any resale property into the points program, so this news isn't as perplexing to me.

So, it is an opportunity for us to perhaps buy a resale week at a lower price, who knows.

Still a great deal to learn.

Thanks,

Greg


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## Fredm (Jul 28, 2010)

FWIW, Marriott is in the process of developing an "Approved Broker" program for the points product. Latest word is that they expect to have it up in December.

I will post additional info as I receive it.


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## brigechols (Jul 28, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> One of the reasons I am skeptical of his claim is that they will need to be able to sell their own resales.  How are they going to sell them if anyone can get similar weeks through external brokers or ebay at a fraction of the price they are going to charge?  They are going to need an incentive to entice people to buy from them.
> 
> Maybe your contact is referring to the current resale program.  My understanding is that later in the year Marriott plans to roll out a new resale program.  It would be hard to believe that they would start a new program up if they are going to handicap it so much before it even begins.



Huh? Marriott competed with eBay sellers for the sale of weeks in the past. I don't understand your point.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 28, 2010)

Fredm said:


> FWIW, Marriott is in the process of developing an "Approved Broker" program for the points product. Latest word is that they expect to have it up in December.
> 
> I will post additional info as I receive it.



This is the new resales program that I was referring to in my post above.  I have been told about this upcoming program several times.


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## windje2000 (Jul 28, 2010)

ldanna said:


> Just a Marriott owner asking about Starwood: Does the devastation of the resale market improved Starwood sales?
> 
> BTW: It took almost 1 month to experienced Tugers to figure out that legacy owners can't access Trust inventory. Now 1 month and 10 days to figure out that there is (and won't be) any authorized reseller. *So I guess there's a lot more to come.*



Its called Death by a thousand cuts.



LAX Mom said:


> Sorry, I didn't really mean nobody!
> 
> I just recall posting about this on June 21 after I had a long call with Marriott about the future of resales but the information I was given seemed to get buried under other concerns about the new program.
> 
> ...




They spent four years on this plan?  NOT! 

This is beyond ridiculous.


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## tombo (Jul 28, 2010)

Fredm said:


> FWIW, Marriott is in the process of developing an "Approved Broker" program for the points product. Latest word is that they expect to have it up in December.
> 
> I will post additional info as I receive it.



I can't wait to see what per cent of a sale the broker gets, and don't forget that the buyer has to pay Marriott "at least" $2000 in addition to whatever he agrees to buy the week/points for. So take $2000 off of what a buyer is willing to pay for your week/points because Marriott gets that money, then give 30% to 40% of your remaining proceeds to the "approved broker", and you won't have much money left (if any). The way prices are falling the week might not even bring the $2000 minimum Marriott requires.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 28, 2010)

tlwmkw said:


> This will hurt at resorts where people have bought just to use for trading but to my mind if you are buying a week at a resort that you want to stay at each year then why would you care?  It will mean that there will be some very inexpensive weeks that will be available to those that wish to purchase to use.  Marriott has basically said that they won't be building or buying by ROFR for some time (at least that's what Arne Sorensen said in the message to shareholders) so there will be some very low prices to anyone who wants to buy.  I think Marriott is being very foolish and looking to boost share prices short term and not build a sustainable product.  Look how DVC prices have held up- they have dropped a little but not nearly as much as you might expect in the current economy.  DVC treat their customers well and build a huge fan base- Marriott is blind to this and will reap the rewards (or lack thereof).
> 
> tlwmkw



It's important to realize, though, what the TUG folks who are most knowledgeable about DVC say as far as DVC's sustained values.  For one thing, DVC has more of a brand-driven niche market than any other system - some DVC owners would never own any other timeshare but Disney.  For another, Disney has a vested interest in keeping the prices of DVC contracts, especially the themepark resorts, in competition with the onsite hotels.  If Disney didn't exercise ROFR as consistently as it has then DVC products would have suffered the same economic woes as every other timeshare system.  But they have to exercise ROFR because if they allow the DVC resorts to become less expensive than the hotels then they'll lose the hotel customer base to DVC lodging.  They walk a tightrope that other timeshare companies don't.  But I do agree with you that they do it very well.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 28, 2010)

brigechols said:


> Huh? Marriott competed with eBay sellers for the sale of weeks in the past. I don't understand your point.



But, in that case, they were selling weeks with all of the developer benefits.  Here, they would be selling weeks at a higher price without any addtional benefits.  Which would you rather buy: a week for $1000 or the same exact one with no additional benefits for $10,000?  People who buy resale are more likely to be searching the Internet.  I don't think their new resale program is going to be viable without an incentive.


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## DanCali (Jul 28, 2010)

_Edited to delete post that violated the "Be Courteous" posting rule._

Dave M
BBS Moderator


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## BocaBoy (Jul 28, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> One of the reasons I am skeptical of his claim is that they will need to be able to sell their own resales.  How are they going to sell them if anyone can get similar weeks through external brokers or ebay at a fraction of the price they are going to charge?  They are going to need an incentive to entice people to buy from them.
> 
> Maybe your contact is referring to the current resale program.  My understanding is that later in the year Marriott plans to roll out a new resale program.  It would be hard to believe that they would start a new program up if they are going to handicap it so much before it even begins.



Their own weeks are actually my weeks and the weeks of other owners.  Marriott's own weeks have been converted to points.  Yes, I am speaking of the current weeks resale program through Marriott Resales.  They have allegedly enhanced the weeks resale program with a new web site, etc., but those of us with listed weeks do not see any sales action happening.

I would expect that any new resale program later in the year would be a points resale program, which is not what I am referring to.


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## DeniseM (Jul 28, 2010)

I could certainly be wrong, but from the info. I have, I see no evidence that bocaboy works for Marriott....  Unless of course, they are now located in Minnesota!


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## DanCali (Jul 28, 2010)

ldanna said:


> Just a Marriott owner asking about Starwood: Does the devastation of the resale market improved Starwood sales?



I doubt it did. It only makes resales look more attractive relative to developer prices. According to Starwood they experienced a 7.5% decline in prices of units sold year over year. So it looks like developer prices are dropping due to the price differential and/or people are buying cheaper VOIs (like EOYs)...

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=903250&postcount=1


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## BocaBoy (Jul 28, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> But, in that case, they were selling weeks with all of the developer benefits.  Here, they would be selling weeks at a higher price without any addtional benefits.  Which would you rather buy: a week for $1000 or the same exact one with no additional benefits for $10,000?  People who buy resale are more likely to be searching the Internet.  I don't think their new resale program is going to be viable without an incentive.



Well said.  It is a big deal.


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## DanCali (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Yes, because I knew the new program was coming and I knew I would learn about it first on TUG.  An interested owner with over $200K tied up in Marriott timeshares seems a better explanation for my current activity than me being a Marriott salesman.  I guess I am a salesman when I speak pro-Marriott and a salesman when I speak anti-Marriott.





DeniseM said:


> I could certainly be wrong, but from the info. I have, I see no evidence that bocaboy works for Marriott....  Unless of course, they are now located in Minnesota!



Denise has a good track record on sniffing out these things so I trust her judgment on this...


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## hotcoffee (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> . . .
> I would expect that any new resale program later in the year would be a points resale program, which is not what I am referring to.



Perhaps.  I never asked _*what*_ they are going to resell.  If they are going only to resell points, then it is probably going to be true that our timeshare values will drop to almost zero.  If we want to sell, we will all be looking for some poor sap who will give us $1000 for our week(s) not realizing that he is taking on high MFs without getting much of value.

If Marriott is really that devious, then you can believe that they are not through putting the screws to people who own weeks and refuse to enroll them.  They target resales first.  Then they will go after non-enrolled owners by changing your ability to get good exchanges via II.  I don't think they intend for the points program to fail.  One way or another it will succeed.


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## Fredm (Jul 28, 2010)

tombo said:


> I can't wait to see what per cent of a sale the broker gets, and don't forget that the buyer has to pay Marriott "at least" $2000 in addition to whatever he agrees to buy the week/points for. So take $2000 off of what a buyer is willing to pay for your week/points because Marriott gets that money, then give 30% to 40% of your remaining proceeds to the "approved broker", and you won't have much money left (if any). The way prices are falling the week might not even bring the $2000 minimum Marriott requires.



The flip side of what Marriott did with weeks resales.
Now, legacy owners can have MRP's because it is no longer what differentiates a direct purchase from a resale. 

Points are the store product. Marriott does not want competition for the sale.


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## BocaBoy (Jul 28, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Perhaps.  I never asked _*what*_ they are going to resell.  If they are going only to resell points, then it is probably going to be true that our timeshare values will drop to almost zero.  If we want to sell, we will all be looking for some poor sap who will give us $1000 for our week(s) not realizing that he is taking on high MFs without getting much of value.
> 
> If Marriott is really that devious, then you can believe that they are not through putting the screws to people who own weeks and refuse to enroll them.  They target resales first.  Then they will go after non-enrolled owners by changing your ability to get good exchanges via II.  I don't think they intend for the points program to fail.  One way or another it will succeed.



A very legitimate worry.


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## vacationtime1 (Jul 28, 2010)

tlwmkw said:


> This will hurt at resorts where people have bought just to use for trading but to my mind if you are buying a week at a resort that you want to stay at each year then why would you care?  It will mean that there will be some very inexpensive weeks that will be available to those that wish to purchase to use.  Marriott has basically said that they won't be building or buying by ROFR for some time (at least that's what Arne Sorensen said in the message to shareholders) so there will be some very low prices to anyone who wants to buy.  I think Marriott is being very foolish and looking to boost share prices short term and not build a sustainable product.



I agree.  Further, there will be substantial ongoing savings to be had for those purchasing resale weeks at high priced (high point) resorts.

Take the Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina/Napili Towers as an example.  It takes about 7,625 points to reserve a week there (2bd/OV).  The annual MF's for 7,625 points are $3,050.  However, the MF's for an annual legacy week at the same resort are less than $2,000.  Looks to me like someone wanting to use that facility each year would be a thousand dollars per year better off buying a week rather than points.

That doesn't even consider the fact that the points cost $70,150 while the week can be had for 40% of that amount -- and much less than 40% if Marriott destroys the value of deeded weeks.


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## burg1121 (Jul 28, 2010)

Is there a reason why we the weeks owners don't have our own internal exchange system. We have what Marriott wants and needs to make their system work. We also have what we want. If we allow them to dictate to us thats our bad. We own the weeks we should do whats in our best interest. It would take time and effort and thats why most consumers lose to corporate polices.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 28, 2010)

vacationtime1 said:


> I agree.  Further, there will be substantial ongoing savings to be had for those purchasing resale weeks at high priced (high point) resorts.
> 
> Take the Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina/Napili Towers as an example.  It takes about 7,625 points to reserve a week there (2bd/OV).  The annual MF's for 7,625 points are $3,050.  However, the MF's for an annual legacy week at the same resort are less than $2,000.  Looks to me like someone wanting to use that facility each year would be a thousand dollars per year better off buying a week rather than points.
> 
> That doesn't even consider the fact that the points cost $70,150 while the week can be had for 40% of that amount -- and much less than 40% if Marriott destroys the value of deeded weeks.



Yep.  Assuming one wants to go only to his own resort, then the resale market will be a great deal because Marriott cannot do much to hurt a person's reserving a week at his home resort.  Hmmmm.  Or can they?  Suppose they drop the percentage rules and allow points exchangers to book all the reservations they want at any resort they want.  Nice incentive for encouraging people to enroll.  Then, if they monkey around with the weeks you will be allowed to deposit into II, they can damage your exchanging ability.  Suddenly, enrolling in points will look like a good idea.  But, resale owners will be left with nothing but cruddy weeks and MFs.

None of these things are likely to happen, but a lot of TUGGERs now think Marriott is pretty devious.


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## foreverloves (Jul 28, 2010)

Wow, that's so sad to hear; that Marriott would treat resale buyers that way.  That's like saying, "You are a second class citizen at our hotels because you booked on Travelocity" (admittedly a somewhat bad example because they are "brokers" for Marriott) but you get the idea.  Wow.  We have remained loyal to the product and brand that Marriott is (has been?)  We carry their credit card, actively use and accumulate MR points and encourage our friends to use their chain.  We've been Platinums for 4 years.  

I realize the Marriott timeshare business is different, but we've probably spent tens of thousands of dollars on Marriott too.  Again, I say wow.  I think this was cold and calculated on Marriott's part.  I feel badly for those that purchased developer or even higher-priced resale weeks, only to be devalued and misled.  I'm not a believer that a timeshare is an investment, rather a liability that can be enjoyed many times over and used wisely, but my goodness.  

There are so many ways this could have been handled better by Marriott, and I'm ashamed they did not try to do any of those things.


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## ilene13 (Jul 28, 2010)

When we went through the "points presentation" from the obnoxious salesman at Surfwatch in early July, he kept saying the only way we would be able to sell our units would be to be legacy owners.  Then the new owner would have the opportunity to enroll.  Of course he said that the resale program wasn't set up yet but that was how it was going to work.  I did not like the salesman then and I still don't like him.  My husband got nervous and wanted to enroll because of the possibility down the road of the resale.  I won.  We did not enroll and it is doubtful that we will!


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## hotcoffee (Jul 28, 2010)

foreverloves said:


> Wow, that's so sad to hear; that Marriott would treat resale buyers that way. .  .



Keep in mind that there is still a possibility that what has been posted here might not apply to the new resale program that Marriott is rumored to be planning to deploy before the end of the year.  If they were to implement a full resale program, then at least we might have a way out if we needed to sell due to changes in our family, health, financial situation, etc.  Such a program might even come with an automatic points enrollment as an incentive for buyers.  

I would be satisfied if they implemented such a program.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Wow!  I post news like this that completely changed my opinion of Marriott and the new program for the worse and you think I am a Marriott salesman?
> 
> Especially when I am only talking about resales through Marriott, which are limited to 20 or so resorts.  I am #1 on the Waiohai sales list and it has not sold in two months.  So they cannot be selling many through Resale Operations.
> 
> My post does not even address that fact that future private resales are excluded from enrolling in the points program.  (Marriott Resales sells at full developer prices, in case you did not know.)



I am absolutely stunned that people on this thread are actually more convinced you are a sales guy for Marriott than before you started this thread.  There is a heckuva lot of delusional paranoia running around on this message board.

I am NOT surprised that Marriott isn't allowing resale weeks deeded after June 20, 2010 into the points program.  I thought we determined that in the first week.  Not sure it even matters whether or not you are a Marriott sales guy.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Yes, because I knew the new program was coming and I knew I would learn about it first on TUG.  An interested owner with over $200K tied up in Marriott timeshares seems a better explanation for my current activity than me being a Marriott salesman.  I guess I am a salesman when I speak pro-Marriott and a salesman when I speak anti-Marriott.



Truly Amazing.


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## RandR (Jul 28, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> I am absolutely stunned that people on this thread are actually more convinced you are a sales guy for Marriott than before you started this thread.  There is a heckuva lot of delusional paranoia running around on this message board.
> 
> I am NOT surprised that Marriott isn't allowing resale weeks deeded after June 20, 2010 into the points program.  I thought we determined that in the first week.  Not sure it even matters whether or not you are a Marriott sales guy.



You're just defending him because he has Boca in his name also.  

Edited to add:  Oh and by the way BocaBoy, technically you have still never said outright that you are not working for Marriott.


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## RandR (Jul 28, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Keep in mind that there is still a possibility that what has been posted here might not apply to the new resale program that Marriott is rumored to be planning to deploy before the end of the year.  If they were to implement a full resale program, then at least we might have a way out if we needed to sell due to changes in our family, health, financial situation, etc.  Such a program might even come with an automatic points enrollment as an incentive for buyers.
> 
> I would be satisfied if they implemented such a program.



But will this program only be for people that are selling points?  Will they have Approved Brokers to sell the weeks that people enrolled in the program but didn't convert to points?  I thought that was what the original discussions were about when it was said that if someone sold it would cost at least $2000for the new person to join.  Was this strickly points people not weeks people?


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## hotcoffee (Jul 28, 2010)

RandR said:


> But will this program only be for people that are selling points?



Good question.  Don't know.  If the new resale web page posted in another thread is the prototype of what the new program will offer, then they will be selling weeks rather than points.  I think Marriott plans to offer a buy-back feature for points (at only percentage of the original cost).



RandR said:


> Will they have Approved Brokers to sell the weeks that people enrolled in the program but didn't convert to points?



There obviously would only be one "approved broker" and that would be Marriott.



RandR said:


> I thought that was what the original discussions were about when it was said that if someone sold it would cost at least $2000for the new person to join.  Was this strickly points people not weeks people?



I did not read the post about the $2000 thoroughly enough to catch the drift.  However, I think it is possible that any week that Marriott would resell might come with an automatic enrollment.  They want as many enrollments as they can get.


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## pwrshift (Jul 28, 2010)

What's so bad in buying a nice Starwood (or Marriott) timeshare deed for $1 for personal use?  The seller just wants out of annual MF and eventually the $1 buyer will want out too, even if it sells for 50cents!  I don't think any of us figured we'd be able to sell for a profit.  

What Marriott doesn't own, they don't have.  Read your deed again...there are only a fixed number of units and weeks in any given season and there has to be one there for every deed.  And if, as expected, 80% of owners stay out of the new program entirely, guess who's boss.  JMHO

Brian


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## RandR (Jul 28, 2010)

pwrshift said:


> What's so bad in buying a nice Starwood (or Marriott) timeshare deed for $1 for personal use?  The seller just wants out of annual MF and eventually the $1 buyer will want out too, even if it sells for 50cents!  I don't think any of us figured we'd be able to sell for a profit.
> 
> What Marriott doesn't own, they don't have.  Read your deed again...there are only a fixed number of units and weeks in any given season and there has to be one there for every deed.  And if, as expected, 80% of owners stay out of the new program entirely, guess who's boss.  JMHO
> 
> Brian



Unfortunately, that's a big if.  If it ends up that 50% or more enroll and Marriott doesn't split the inventory on a week by week basis, it will be a lot harder to get prime weeks since any points owner with enough points can go for a desired week.  As someone who travels only on school breaks, that can be a problem.


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## pwrshift (Jul 28, 2010)

I don't see it that way.  Even if 50% of my resort's owners joined, there would be 50% of each season's weeks available ... the odds have stayed the same if you are trading outside the new program.  

Floating week timesharing has always been a problem for those with little flexibility in vacation time and only 1 week to book ... that probably won't change whether you join or not.

Brian


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## foreverloves (Jul 28, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Yep.  Assuming one wants to go only to his own resort, then the resale market will be a great deal because Marriott cannot do much to hurt a person's reserving a week at his home resort.  Hmmmm.  Or can they?  Suppose they drop the percentage rules and allow points exchangers to book all the reservations they want at any resort they want.  Nice incentive for encouraging people to enroll.  Then, if they monkey around with the weeks you will be allowed to deposit into II, they can damage your exchanging ability.  Suddenly, enrolling in points will look like a good idea.  But, resale owners will be left with nothing but cruddy weeks and MFs.
> 
> None of these things are likely to happen, but a lot of TUGGERs now think Marriott is pretty devious.



This completely concerns me.  Isn't the appeal of the DC that DC owners CAN "book anywhere"?  It's all about (say it with me!) FLEXIBILITY, right? Won't they need to give their points owners that at some point?  

My understanding was that, in order to best trade with II, you have to book (within your season) the best available trading week (if you are wanting to trade), otherwise you just try to book the week you want.  If something like this shakes down, then post 6/20 resale owners like me will be stuck with a dog week in their season, unable to trade it for much and unhappy to stay at the home resort that week.  

Wow.  Am I really hearing this (potentially) correctly?


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## pwrshift (Jul 28, 2010)

Booking your floating week with Marriott has always been stressful for prime time. If a resort has 200 units for July 4, the first 200 callers get them so you have to be dialing right at the opening on booking day. There is no difference for resale or direct buyers. Those owners who 'miss' getting that week might have to call the next week to try and get that week, and so on...that's the stress...and I think it's always been worse than exchanging with II. I had fixed timeshare weeks (before Marriott) and it was a dream but inflexible unless you traded.

If your platinum 'season' has 20 weeks, then your sold-out 200 unit resort has 4000 deeded platinum weeks - one for every owner whether inside or outside the program. 

The game has changed some with the new program, but if the expected 20% of those owners enroll their weeks that should mean 3200 platinum weeks are available for those outside the program and only 800 for those enrolled -- but it's still 1 owner per week and Marriott can only change that if those owners turn their weeks in for MR points or for internal exchange after booking. 

So owners continue to book their weeks and then decide to use or exchange them. However, those on points may cloud the situation somehow in ways yet to find out...but they apparently have restrictions to the 'trust' resorts that are not yet sold out or resorts given back to Marriott for MR points. Getting a week in a trust hotel might be more difficult than in the past with II.

Not a major change from the booking proceedure IMO but exchanging may get more stressful. If you buy where you want to use, very little problem, inside or outside, resale or direct.

At least that my theory on how it will work...but only Marriott knows for sure (or do they?).

Brian


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## BocaBoy (Jul 29, 2010)

To clear a few things up:

1) I do not work for Marriott and I never have.

2) The new website is not the prototype of something new.  They have always had the resale operation.  I bought a resale week from them this way in 2001.  It is only the web site that is new.

3) The new resale program they are planning for later in the year is the resale of points, not weeks.

4) My MVCI executive contact explained the reason that Mariott has no approved broker (not even Marriott Resale Operations) for WEEKS resales.  They plan to make their money on points sales and allowing even purchasers of weeks from Marriott Resales to enroll would potentially "cannibalize their points sales".  (which of course makes no logical sense as a reason)

5)  They have not hurt people privately buying resale with this move, but rather the owners who bought developer units from them in the past and would now like to get a reasonable value through Marriott sales.  The ones hurt the most are their best customers (like me): owners who bought high priced weeks directly from Marriott and would like to sell one.  Our value has gone down dramatically.  I told the MVCI executive that my developer weeks are now worth very little and he seemed to agree with me.


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## Clemson Fan (Jul 29, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> There is a heckuva lot of delusional paranoia running around on this message board.


 
Yeah, this board went from being enjoyable to almost unreadable in the last couple of months.  There are so many rants and diatribes that get repeated over and over. 

This is just vacation time we are talking about which for most of us represents about only 2-10% of our year, yet how much time are some people spending being upset about big bad Marriott.


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## JimIg23 (Jul 29, 2010)

I stilll think it is too early in the game to know if this will shake out as being discussed.  Putting more weight on what this rep said as opposed to any other when we have all seen many reps being mis-informed may not turn out to be wise or true.  The docs are so unclear that I think after they establish their resale program, we will get a much more clear picture of what is what.  I wonder if there was so many unanswered qustions like this when other companies converted to a point system overlay?


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## MikeM132 (Jul 29, 2010)

Well, I guess I have already thrown myself on the mercy of Marriott. I just clicked "reply" to that email, figuring all the details were already hashed-out here. I'm in now, for better or worse.


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## Y-ASK (Jul 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I think weeks resale prices will be ok. Otherwise they won't...



Now there's an opinion that we can all agree with .


Y-ASK


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## RandR (Jul 29, 2010)

pwrshift said:


> If your platinum 'season' has 20 weeks, then your sold-out 200 unit resort has 4000 deeded platinum weeks - one for every owner whether inside or outside the program.
> 
> The game has changed some with the new program, but if the expected 20% of those owners enroll their weeks that should mean 3200 platinum weeks are available for those outside the program and only 800 for those enrolled -- but it's still 1 owner per week and Marriott can only change that if those owners turn their weeks in for MR points or for internal exchange after booking.
> 
> ...



But what if at some point Marriott decides that they aren't going to do the split between Legacy and Points owners on a per week basis but instead on a per season basis?  (I assume they are doing it on a per week basis now but who knows.)  Now while Points owners may only have 800 (from your example) weeks available to them, EVERY single points owner with enough points can try for those 800 weeks.  Before I was just against 800 other Platinum week owners.  Now I may be up against thousands of Points week owners.  No where near as good for me.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 29, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> To clear a few things up:
> 
> 1) I do not work for Marriott and I never have.
> 
> ...



Okay, you've now stated you don't work for Marriott.  Now I am absolutely convinced that you work for them.  :hysterical:


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## windje2000 (Jul 29, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Okay, you've now stated you don't work for Marriott.  Now I am absolutely convinced that you work for them.  :hysterical:



Now I'm starting to wonder about you, BocaBum99


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 29, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Now I'm starting to wonder about you, BocaBum99



LOL.  Okay, you got me.  Yeah, I work for Marriott.  I have been scheming for 6 years to fool all of the posters on this message board of my real intent.  I faked everyone out with over 5000 posts in that time frame.  I even built a website focused on Bluegreen to throw everyone off on this message board.  After that 6 years of scheming, I finally got my chance to defend Marriott while trying to come across as an independent third party observer.  Now, you've outed me.  I admit it.  I work for Marriott.  My real name is Bill and my last name starts with an M.  :rofl:


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## windje2000 (Jul 29, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> LOL.  Okay, you got me.  Yeah, I work for Marriott.  I have been scheming for 6 years to fool all of the posters on this message board of my real intent.  I faked everyone out with over 5000 posts in that time frame.  I even built a website focused on Bluegreen to throw everyone off on this message board.  After that 6 years of scheming, I finally got my chance to defend Marriott while trying to come across as an independent third party observer.  Now, you've outed me.  I admit it.  I work for Marriott.  My real name is Bill and my last name starts with an M.  :rofl:



:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:


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## JimC (Jul 29, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> It's important to realize, though, what the TUG folks who are most knowledgeable about DVC say as far as DVC's sustained values.  For one thing, DVC has more of a brand-driven niche market than any other system - some DVC owners would never own any other timeshare but Disney.  For another, Disney has a vested interest in keeping the prices of DVC contracts, especially the themepark resorts, in competition with the onsite hotels.  If Disney didn't exercise ROFR as consistently as it has then DVC products would have suffered the same economic woes as every other timeshare system.  But they have to exercise ROFR because if they allow the DVC resorts to become less expensive than the hotels then they'll lose the hotel customer base to DVC lodging.  They walk a tightrope that other timeshare companies don't.  But I do agree with you that they do it very well.



Yes, but DVC will likely manage ROFR differently as the contracts age.  While the contracts are deeded property interests, they are limited term deeds.  The per point price to buy a contract will eventually decline even with ROFR support.  But that support will keep the cost of the points over the remaining life of the contract competitive with its on-site hotels and newer DVC resorts.  It will be a new wrinkle as their program matures.


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## m61376 (Jul 29, 2010)

RandR said:


> But what if at some point Marriott decides that they aren't going to do the split between Legacy and Points owners on a per week basis but instead on a per season basis?  (I assume they are doing it on a per week basis now but who knows.)  Now while Points owners may only have 800 (from your example) weeks available to them, EVERY single points owner with enough points can try for those 800 weeks.  Before I was just against 800 other Platinum week owners.  Now I may be up against thousands of Points week owners.  No where near as good for me.


There is nothing in writing, but the official statement is that they will split it proportionate to ownership and evenly across the season. 

Frankly, there is so much other stuff that I find fault with in the program that I'll curtail the paranoia on this one. I think curtailing the "what if they go back on their word" and concentrating on the "what is" is more productive.


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## BocaBoy (Jul 29, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> Putting more weight on what this rep said as opposed to any other when we have all seen many reps being mis-informed may not turn out to be wise or true.



My source is not a "rep".  It is a senior executive at MVCI corporate headquarters who I have dealt with for years.


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## RandR (Jul 29, 2010)

m61376 said:


> There is nothing in writing, but the official statement is that they will split it proportionate to ownership and evenly across the season.
> 
> Frankly, there is so much other stuff that I find fault with in the program that I'll curtail the paranoia on this one. I think curtailing the "what if they go back on their word" and concentrating on the "what is" is more productive.



I was just addressing Brian's point that reserving now is no different than before the program.  While I am trying not to be paranoid, people here keep finding more sneaky things that Marriott is doing.  I just do not trust that they will do the right thing going forward.  Especially if the points program doesn't get off to the start they would like.  Then they just change the rule, which since according to the contract they have every right to do and as we know the contract is the only thing that matters, and puff Legacy owners are screwed again.


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## DanCali (Jul 29, 2010)

RandR said:


> I was just addressing Brian's point that reserving now is no different than before the program.  While I am trying not to be paranoid, people here keep finding more sneaky things that Marriott is doing.  I just do not trust that they will do the right thing going forward.  Especially if the points program doesn't get off to the start they would like.  Then they just change the rule, which since according to the contract they have every right to do and as we know the contract is the only thing that matters, and puff Legacy owners are screwed again.



Unfortunately I agree with this. I don't believe Marriott wants a 20% enrollment rate - I think they want much more. Once enrolled, they want people to convert to points - it's more profitable for them. 

They could accomplish this by creating a great, flexible program. While the flexibility aspect of the points program exchange system that they came up with is debatable, especially given the costs involved, I think we can safely this is not a "great program" and owners are not signing up in droves.

The other way to accomplish this is make things so uncomfortable for weeks reservations that they will be forced to both enroll and use points or they will never get any exchange. Given that it's too late to go back to the drawing board with the program, I think they will eventually at least try to make things miserable for weeks owners using weeks, whether enrolled or not.


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## windje2000 (Jul 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Unfortunately I agree with this. I don't believe Marriott wants a 20% enrollment rate - I think they want much more. Once enrolled, they want people to convert to points - it's more profitable for them.
> 
> They could accomplish this by creating a great, flexible program. While the flexibility aspect of the points program exchange system that they came up with is debatable, especially given the costs involved, I think we can safely this is not a "great program" and owners are not signing up in droves.
> 
> *The other way to accomplish this is make things so uncomfortable for weeks reservations that they will be forced to both enroll and use points or they will never get any exchange. Given that it's too late to go back to the drawing board with the program, I think they will eventually at least try to make things miserable for weeks owners using weeks, whether enrolled or not.*



That's certainly one way this could end for weeks owners - lousy weeks to reserve, control of what you can reserve to exchange, assignment to unrefurbished units, split from II, etc.

But that only works if they have a very substantial percentage (majority?)  enrolled.  

*The plan will only get 'sweetened' if enrollment numbers are lousy.*


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## Powerguy (Jul 29, 2010)

I really don't get all of this doom and gloom. I bought two resale weeks to use at my home resort every year. If I continue to do that nothing has changed for me, better or worse, with the new program.

If I decide to join the points program I can pay my $1995 and have the same rights as someone who paid double what I paid for my units. Actually in this case the $1500 difference is a great deal to have all the rights a priviledges as a developer purchaser. 

When we go to sell we are all in the same boat. Not really worse than it was before. We are still competing with Marriott for sales. We can sell more for less.


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## CMF (Jul 29, 2010)

Powerguy said:


> I really don't get all of this doom and gloom. I bought two resale weeks to use at my home resort every year. If I continue to do that nothing has changed for me, better or worse, with the new program.
> 
> If I decide to join the points program I can pay my $1995 and have the same rights as someone who paid double what I paid for my units. Actually in this case the $1500 difference is a great deal to have all the rights a priviledges as a developer purchaser.
> 
> When we go to sell we are all in the same boat. Not really worse than it was before. We are still competing with Marriott for sales. We can sell more for less.



ditto.

Charles


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## DanCali (Jul 29, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> That's certainly one way this could end for weeks owners - lousy weeks to reserve, control of what you can reserve to exchange, assignment to unrefurbished units, split from II, etc.
> 
> But that only works if they have a very substantial percentage (majority?)  enrolled.



Getting people to enroll AND use points is Marriott's objective right?

My argument was that causality could work the opposite from what you describe... make weeks usage miserable (enrolled or not) and that will cause enrollment and usage of points. If you can't get your exchange any other way, you'll enroll. If you enrolled for II savings but still use weeks, you'll now use points. Trading down is better than not trading at all, right ? Or take your chances with non-Marriott trades...


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## RandR (Jul 29, 2010)

Powerguy said:


> I really don't get all of this doom and gloom. I bought two resale weeks to use at my home resort every year. If I continue to do that nothing has changed for me, better or worse, with the new program.



Not necessarily true.  If Marriott decides to let all points owners with enough points reserve ANY week within the old seasons, you could be shut out of getting the weeks you want. 



Powerguy said:


> If I decide to join the points program I can pay my $1995 and have the same rights as someone who paid double what I paid for my units. Actually in this case the $1500 difference is a great deal to have all the rights a priviledges as a developer purchaser.



The only priviledge you get is to be able to trade your week for MRP.  If that is important to you then it is a benefit but for many, but not all, that holds no value.


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## windje2000 (Jul 29, 2010)

Powerguy said:


> I really don't get all of this doom and gloom. I bought two resale weeks to use at my home resort every year. If I continue to do that nothing has changed for me, better or worse, with the new program.
> 
> If I decide to join the points program I can pay my $1995 and have the same rights as someone who paid double what I paid for my units. Actually in this case the $1500 difference is a great deal to have all the rights a priviledges as a developer purchaser.
> 
> When we go to sell we are all in the same boat. Not really worse than it was before. We are still competing with Marriott for sales. We can sell more for less.



If you go to your home resort every year, why bother joining any exchange system, much less this one?  

The only thing you get for your $2k is the option of MRP, which option is worthless if you go to your home resort every year.  

Given the way you use your ownership, you already have everything a developer purchased week has.


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## DanCali (Jul 29, 2010)

Powerguy said:


> I really don't get all of this doom and gloom. I bought two resale weeks to use at my home resort every year. If I continue to do that nothing has changed for me, better or worse, with the new program.
> 
> If I decide to join the points program I can pay my $1995 and have the same rights as someone who paid double what I paid for my units. Actually in this case the $1500 difference is a great deal to have all the rights a priviledges as a developer purchaser.
> 
> When we go to sell we are all in the same boat. Not really worse than it was before. We are still competing with Marriott for sales. We can sell more for less.



First off, if you really bought just to use then why enroll? You'd be paying $2K + $200 a year for no added benefit. Don't tell me you plan to convert FC Platinum to MRPs... you'd be much better off renting it out.

Second, if the "doom and gloom" scenarios come true, you can be sure things will change. Take the verbal assurance about pro rate inventory allocation. How would you feel if points exchangers could get into FC in March and your weeks magically were only able to grab January weeks? You call at 13 months out for a March week but get "no availability". That might cause you to re-evaluate things, no?


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## windje2000 (Jul 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Getting people to enroll AND use points is Marriott's objective right?
> 
> My argument was that causality could work the opposite from what you describe... make weeks usage miserable (enrolled or not) and that will cause enrollment and usage of points. If you can't get your exchange any other way, you'll enroll. If you enrolled for II savings but still use weeks, you'll now use points. Trading down is better than not trading at all, right ? Or take your chances with non-Marriott trades...



If its not clear from my post, I was postulating [edited to add] "various ways' that Marriott could indeed make life miserable for weeks owners.  [edited to add] I left unstated that this would be consistent with the objective of forcing not only enrollment but pure points usage.  

That's the stick approach to forcing enrollment as opposed to the carrot, which would be sweetening the plan.  

I don't think the stick approach works very well with low enrollment.

But if they go that route, that's what we'll see them doing.


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## JimC (Jul 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Unfortunately I agree with this. I don't believe Marriott wants a 20% enrollment rate - I think they want much more. Once enrolled, they want people to convert to points - it's more profitable for them.
> 
> They could accomplish this by creating a great, flexible program. While the flexibility aspect of the points program exchange system that they came up with is debatable, especially given the costs involved, I think we can safely this is not a "great program" and owners are not signing up in droves.
> 
> The other way to accomplish this is make things so uncomfortable for weeks reservations that they will be forced to both enroll and use points or they will never get any exchange. Given that it's too late to go back to the drawing board with the program, I think they will eventually at least try to make things miserable for weeks owners using weeks, whether enrolled or not.



I see no reason why they can not redesign something if the market response is poor.  Look at New Coke and Classic Coke as an example.  It just takes some leadership to say fix it and move on.


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## JimC (Jul 29, 2010)

Powerguy said:


> I really don't get all of this doom and gloom. I bought two resale weeks to use at my home resort every year. If I continue to do that nothing has changed for me, better or worse, with the new program.
> 
> If I decide to join the points program I can pay my $1995 and have the same rights as someone who paid double what I paid for my units. Actually in this case the $1500 difference is a great deal to have all the rights a priviledges as a developer purchaser.
> 
> When we go to sell we are all in the same boat. Not really worse than it was before. We are still competing with Marriott for sales. We can sell more for less.



The additional buy-in for resales does not put the resale contract on a parity with developer sales.  The only perk is the right to exchange for MRP (if offered by that resort) and then only EOY at best.  I doubt that MVCI will stop tracking where a weeks owner acquired their interest once they enroll.

We will need to wait and see how the program works to know if weeks owners using their resort are disadvantaged or not.  On the face of it, it should be a neutral.  But MVCI could change the rules.


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## RandR (Jul 29, 2010)

JimC said:


> I see no reason why they can not redesign something if the market response is poor.  Look at New Coke and Classic Coke as an example.  It just takes some leadership to say fix it and move on.



But I don't think that analogy is correct.  Coke had to redesign New Coke back to old Coke because their sales dropped considerably.  Marriott doesn't seem to care if their "old" customers like the program.  They care about the "new" points customers and about clearing out old inventory.  People will join over time and Marriott will likely get enough of what they want.  If not, they can either use the stick or the carrot as others have described above.


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## windje2000 (Jul 29, 2010)

RandR said:


> But I don't think that analogy is correct.  Coke had to redesign New Coke back to old Coke because their sales dropped considerably.  Marriott doesn't seem to care if their "old" customers like the program.  They care about the "new" points customers and about clearing out old inventory.  People will join over time and Marriott will likely get enough of what they want.  If not, they can either use the stick or the carrot as others have described above.



The need enrolled legacies to sell the dream.  If no one enrolls, they'll have a tougher time selling points.


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## foreverloves (Jul 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> First off, if you really bought just to use then why enroll? You'd be paying $2K + $200 a year for no added benefit. Don't tell me you plan to convert FC Platinum to MRPs... you'd be much better off renting it out.
> 
> Second, if the "doom and gloom" scenarios come true, you can be sure things will change. Take the verbal assurance about pro rate inventory allocation. How would you feel if points exchangers could get into FC in March and your weeks magically were only able to grab January weeks? You call at 13 months out for a March week but get "no availability". That might cause you to re-evaluate things, no?



Yup.  This is precisely it, IMO.  Make it difficult for (eligible) weeks owners to get the weeks they want, and you'll convert.  And I think that's going to happen.  What I DON'T know is what will happen to post 6/20 resale owners.  I hear people saying, "If all I want to do is book during my season at my home resort, I'll be fine", why think that?  When you call to book in your platinum season and are only offered the crappiest of weeks, even if you call at 9:00:02 AM, what will you do? Sure, Marriott isn't changing anything for them; they will say that you can still book at your home resort "We aren't changing that".  No,  you're not.  But if I haven't a prayer to book a decent week during that season, where's the value?

Moreover, how can you sell a Marriott deed in a "Gold" season or something and say, "Yeah, you can't participate in points, and good luck booking anything you might want in your season."  That's how non-enrolled week owners and future resale purchasers will suffer - dried up inventory as more points owners snag weeks away.  I don't prescribe to conspiracy theories; this makes total sense.  Are you really going to tell a high-priced points owner, "Oh, no availability for you...gotta give to that weeks owner."  Heck no. You're gonna make those points owners very happy, so they tell their friends how great the points system is...

Eligible (to convert) weeks owners are going to hear it (someday).  "Sorry, sold out for week 30 at Grande Ocean" and when they ask, "Is it available in points?" I'll bet the answer is yes.

I have an email in to my friend who works at a Florida-based MVC and has for 10 years.  I'm gonna see what he hears.


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## DanCali (Jul 29, 2010)

JimC said:


> I see no reason why they can not redesign something if the market response is poor.  Look at New Coke and Classic Coke as an example.  It just takes some leadership to say fix it and move on.



Does this response  from MVCI sound like they are on the path to redesigning anything?


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Does this response  from MVCI sound like they are on the path to redesigning anything?



Why would they change it yet?  It's only 5 weeks old?  They will change it when they aren't meeting their objectives.  The market will dictate ultimately where they take the program.

I think Fredm has the best perspective on the program from the beginning.  He has been pretty much right on from day one.  I am starting to see things the way he does.  Marriott can make this work.


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## RandR (Jul 29, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> The need enrolled legacies to sell the dream.  If no one enrolls, they'll have a tougher time selling points.



But they are getting some weeks.  Look at the people on TUG that are enrolling.  Many of them have multiple weeks.  Some are even buying extra points.  Now think about when Mr and Mrs Have No Idea What They are Doing walks in and sits down with a salesperson.  They salesperson will tell them about how great the new program is and many of them will enroll their legacy weeks.

Again, if that doesn't work there is always the carrot and the stick.  No need to completely revamp the program, just either whack or feed.  Heck it took them 4 years to put this together.  They knew what they were doing.  They just didn't care.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 29, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Now I'm starting to wonder about you, BocaBum99



By the way, Fredm says that there will be an authorized broker program for points in December.  If I believe in the product, I may end up carrying the product if I can qualify.   However, I am not yet convinced that it is worth the time and effort required to sell it.


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## windje2000 (Jul 29, 2010)

RandR said:


> But they are getting some weeks.  Look at the people on TUG that are enrolling.  Many of them have multiple weeks.  Some are even buying extra points.  Now think about when Mr and Mrs Have No Idea What They are Doing walks in and sits down with a salesperson.  They salesperson will tell them about how great the new program is and many of them will enroll their legacy weeks.
> 
> Again, if that doesn't work there is always the carrot and the stick.  No need to completely revamp the program, just either whack or feed.  Heck it took them 4 years to put this together.  They knew what they were doing.  They just didn't care.



Sure they'll get some.  Whether or not it will be enough to provide a robust exchange vehicle for points owners remains to be seen.

I actually don't believe they spent four years on this - its the most poorly planned and executed grand opening I've ever witnessed.    

They may have been kicking around some ideas for strategic planning purposes for a few years, and leaking that as a tease, but my view is this project got front burnered when they told Bill Marriott he was taking a $700 million impairment hit.


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## Powerguy (Jul 29, 2010)

I will not be buying into the points program. What I was trying to say is that the $1500 in additional enrollment cost would put me in even standing with prople that paid double what I paid for my weeks.

If I cannot book two consecutive weeks at he 13 month window I would not be happy. My understanding that with the new system 50% of the non-point weeks are available at the 13 month window. I stil believe that the 13 month benefit will allow me to book the weeks I want.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 29, 2010)

pwrshift said:


> . . .
> 
> The game has changed some with the new program, but if the expected 20% of those owners enroll their weeks that should mean 3200 platinum weeks are available for those outside the program and only 800 for those enrolled  . . .



On my post in which I was replying with a worst-case scenerio, I floated the idea that if the points program were to not do as well as Marriott is hoping, they might implement changes to enhance the program in order to "encourage" more participation.  The reservation restrictions based upon ratios are not in the legal documents which only state that Marriott reserves the right to implement such restrictions.  As far as I see, they are under no requirement to maintain ratios beyond making sure you are able to exercise your legal right to reserve a week in your season at your resort.  If they were remove the ratios relating to reserving specific weeks (such as July 4th) plus the 50% rule, while keeping the overall enrolled/non-enrolled ratio, non-enrolled owners would still be able to reserve a week.  It just might not be the week they want.  Then, for further "encouragement", they might do what Starwood appears to be accused of: controlling which weeks can be deposited into II, thus making it harder to get good trades.

I am pretty confident that nothing like the above will happen regardless of whether they get their target 20% participation for not.  Reducing the skim would be a better way of encouraging more participation.  I don't think Marriott is as anti-customer as some of the TUG posts make them seem.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 29, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> To clear a few things up:
> 
> 3) The new resale program they are planning for later in the year is the resale of points, not weeks.



My understanding is that Marriott will not "resell" points in the same manner as they have resold weeks in the past.  Rather, they will buy back your points should you want to get rid of them.  I cannot see where it would make any sense for them to broker a program to "resell" points when they can simply buy them back themselves at a percentage of what was originally paid for them and then turn around and sell them at full price.  Since a point is just a concept, it does not depreciate.  If they give you 40 cents on a dollar for each of your points, they now have that many more points to sell.  I am still skeptical that this is going to be their intention.


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## DanCali (Jul 29, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> My understanding is that Marriott will not "resell" points in the same manner as they have resold weeks in the past.  Rather, they will buy back your points should you want to get rid of them.  I cannot see where it would make any sense for them to broker a program to "resell" points when they can simply buy them back themselves at a percentage of what was originally paid for them and then turn around and sell them at full price.  Since a point is just a concept, it does not depreciate.  If they give you 40 cents on a dollar for each of your points, they now have that many more points to sell.  I am still skeptical that this is going to be their intention.



I don't see why that would be the case.

First - if there any points system where you can sell your points back to the developer at any point in time for a given price?

Second, it is not that much different from weeks. If they buy the points from you thy need to pay MFs on those points so there is inventory risk. 

You also say points are a concept so they do not depreciate... Weeks, when sold by Marriott, also did not depreciate for 30 years. The demand went down, there were promos, but the prices generally went up. Also, there is underlying real estate behind the points - is the real estate does depreciate, and if Marriott's prices were realistic, points should depreciate too.

In sum, I don't see why they would buy your points... This is the first I've heard of this. Even Marriott sales reps are not selling this idea. Why not sell them for you for a 40% commission without taking MF obligation? On the other hand, since their inventory will never run out, why start any for of resale operation at all, whether is commission based or as you describe. Why not let you sell them and on your own pick them up via ROFR opportunistically?


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## foreverloves (Jul 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I don't see why that would be the case.
> 
> First - if there any points system where you can sell your points back to the developer at any point in time for a given price?
> 
> ...



There's no way I think Marriott will ever, ever take back points.  Until there is an established market or way to transfer points (which I wasn't sure there is), there's zero resale value.  Timeshares are not an investment, but poor Mr & Mrs Whoever are buying something that, should they need to unload because of an emergency, have no value right now.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 29, 2010)

Powerguy said:


> I really don't get all of this doom and gloom. I bought two resale weeks to use at my home resort every year. If I continue to do that nothing has changed for me, better or worse, with the new program. . . .



I also do not subscribe the gloom and doom scenerio.  I still have a degree of faith that Marriott wants good customer relations.  Changes usually make some people happy and others unhappy.  We just have a lot of unhappy people posting here (possibly because TUGGERs are savvy people who have been able to get the most out of their timesharing - which they now see as potentially threatened).

However, having said the above, I would have to agree that the gloom and doom scenerio is probably legally possible.  The 50% rule and the prorata percentage rule are not written into the legal documents as far as I can see.  So, the only thing stopping Marriott from changing those rules is their customer relations.  The one rule they cannot change is your right to reserve a week in your season at your resort; but nothing says it has to be July 4th (or any other particular week).  And if manipulating which weeks you can deposit into II is not legal, how come Starwood apparently gets away it?  (I don't own a Starwood resort; so I have to defer to those who claim that Starwood manipulates weeks going into II.)


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## hotcoffee (Jul 29, 2010)

foreverloves said:


> There's no way I think Marriott will ever, ever take back points.  Until there is an established market or way to transfer points (which I wasn't sure there is), there's zero resale value.  Timeshares are not an investment, but poor Mr & Mrs Whoever are buying something that, should they need to unload because of an emergency, have no value right now.



If there is no resale value, why would they implement a program for their resale?  If they are going to set up a special brokerage to sell something that has no value, then they are sure not much interested in profit.  

I don't buy the idea that they will create such a program.  If they did, they would be selling resale points cheaper than they are selling new points.  That would not make much sense.


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## DanCali (Jul 29, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> I don't buy the idea that they will create such a program.  If they did, they would be selling resale points cheaper than they are selling new points.  That would not make much sense.



But why? They were not selling resale weeks at a lower price that "new" weeks... They still charged full retail. They can do the same with points.

The only difference is that they will never run out of inventory with points - so why bother with resales. They will let people sell it for themselves... and will make sure to impose restrictions to make those points unattractive.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> But why? They were not selling resale weeks at a lower price that "new" weeks... They still charged full retail. They can do the same with points.
> 
> The only difference is that they will never run out of inventory with points - so why bother with resales. They will let people sell it for themselves... and will make sure to impose restrictions to make those points unattractive.



Why would anyone buy "used" points at full price when they can buy "new" points for the same amount?  I cannot even imagine how they would advertise these "used" points.  So, people are going to go to the "used points" dealer to buy "used" points and pay the same amount as the points they buy from the "new points" dealer? (which just happens to be the same dealer for both)  Somehow, this makes little sense.


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## DanCali (Jul 29, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Why would anyone buy "used" points at full price when they can buy "new" points for the same amount?  I cannot even imagine how they would advertise these "used" points.  So, people are going to go to the "used points" dealer to buy "used" points and pay the same amount as the points they buy from the "new points" dealer? (which just happens to be the same dealer for both)  Somehow, this makes little sense.



That's why I said earlier that there will be no resale operation. Is there any points program that has one? Why would we think Marriott has to have such a program? 

They will let you sell them on your own, at a price that will be predetermined by Marriott through the various restrictions imposed on resale points (e.g. up to $1/point ROFR fee, $2000 reenrollment fee to avoid 60 day bookings etc)


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## hotcoffee (Jul 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> That's why I said earlier that there will be no resale operation. Is there any points program that has one? Why would we think Marriott has to have such a program?



Perhaps not.  But I have heard about this new resale program more than once from more than one Marriott person.  The first time I heard it was back in 2008 at one of their presentations.  I brought up resales (which, by the way, is not a real popular subject with Marriott sales people), and the salesman mentioned that Marriott was planning to expand its resale program in the future.  So far, there has not been any such an expansion.  So, I assume that whatever he was talking about still has not happened.  Now, I was told it was coming again by a Marriott person.  

Maybe it is not.  We will have to wait and see.


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## Mamianka (Jul 29, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> *I am stunned*.
> 
> *It gets worse*.  Marriott does not consider Marriott Resales to be an Approved Broker.  They have no Approved Brokers.  Marriott is the developer, but they are not selling the resale weeks--Marriott Resales is.  Therefore, *NO NEW WEEKS PURCHASERS CAN JOIN, EVEN IF PURCHASED AT DEVELOPER PRICES THROUGH MARRIOTT RESALES. * I bought my weeks from Marriott, but even if I sell them through Marriott, they will not allow the purchaser to join.
> 
> I am now forced to conclude that all of you who have been ascribing evil motives to Marriott were right.




We bought a resale in May, while at a sales presentation at the Chateau, where we own (bought from Marriott pre-build in 2004).  We have been told repeatedly by our sales rep that as soon as the deed to our new place is recorded in FL - we bought a EOY 2BR LO at BPT - that this will appear on our list or properties;  since we enrolled the Chateau already, just to send him the additional $100 when it does appear, and we will be all set.  Gave us the points amount, etc.  We enrolled to avoid fees for locking off and trading - we have NO intention at this time of ever using Destination Points.  

And if we never can enroll this one - we do not care, since we intend to use it (we trade the LV property to go to BOT - might as well own there - at a price LESS than what we found FSBO).  We realize that everybody';s situation is different - but we are OK with what we did - your mileage may vary.  I will let you know if we hit any problems with enrolling the BPT in a couple of months.


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## John Cerra (Jul 29, 2010)

*Funny thought -- Audi Commercial*

As I was "skimming" through this thread, a commercial came on during the Yankees game from Audi, bragging about the resale value of their cars.  Honda does the same thing.  Remember what happened to companies that didn't care and ultimately hurt the resale value of their products....do the names Chrysler, Ford and GM come to mind?

I am a resale owner.  I see three options:

1. Buy in, and think about the $15 grand I saved to get there.

2.  Keep my week and trade thru II...I just don't know how I will ever dispose of this asset.

3.  Join the class action lawsuit that is coming.  Don't tell me Marriot's lawyers figured it out...they have taken willful actions to damage the resale value of an asset that you paid for AND continue to pay them fees to manage for you.  As as I think about, the Board members are also going to get sued, since they DO HAVE a fiduciary responsibility to to, and they willfully agreed to this.

I just want a vacation....now I am distrusting Marriott...
Yes, I drive a Honda (Acura.)


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## Dean (Jul 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Unfortunately I agree with this. I don't believe Marriott wants a 20% enrollment rate - I think they want much more. Once enrolled, they want people to convert to points - it's more profitable for them.
> 
> They could accomplish this by creating a great, flexible program. While the flexibility aspect of the points program exchange system that they came up with is debatable, especially given the costs involved, I think we can safely this is not a "great program" and owners are not signing up in droves.
> 
> The other way to accomplish this is make things so uncomfortable for weeks reservations that they will be forced to both enroll and use points or they will never get any exchange. Given that it's too late to go back to the drawing board with the program, I think they will eventually at least try to make things miserable for weeks owners using weeks, whether enrolled or not.


As I've stated previously, I doubt they've targeted only a 20% conversion but even if they have, they'd be very happy with more.  It is my opinion they'll do what it takes to make the new program a success and that success will almost certainly cause those on the sidelines to want in.  



hotcoffee said:


> My understanding is that Marriott will not "resell" points in the same manner as they have resold weeks in the past.  Rather, they will buy back your points should you want to get rid of them.  I cannot see where it would make any sense for them to broker a program to "resell" points when they can simply buy them back themselves at a percentage of what was originally paid for them and then turn around and sell them at full price.  Since a point is just a concept, it does not depreciate.  If they give you 40 cents on a dollar for each of your points, they now have that many more points to sell.  I am still skeptical that this is going to be their intention.


Given the other trust systems I'm aware of, I would assume they can sell any points they get back as new trust points including breaking them up into any size they want as they see fit.


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## John Cerra (Jul 29, 2010)

*If so, they have a way to go...*

As I've stated previously, I doubt they've targeted only a 20% conversion but even if they have, they'd be very happy with more. It is my opinion they'll do what it takes to make the new program a success and that success will almost certainly cause those on the sidelines to want in. 

The first thing they need to do is reduce the complexity.

Second, they need to provide a reasonable exit for those who don't want to remain.  Hurting the resale market is dumb, dumb, dumb.  They want to control and eliminate the resale market...it is a huge problem when the same asset can be had for half price...but they need to do it in an equitable, not a self serving manner....again, I feel they are going effective class action issues for they behaviour on this point.


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## DanCali (Jul 29, 2010)

Dean said:


> It is my opinion they'll do what it takes to make the new program a success and that success will almost certainly cause those on the sidelines to want in.



This program cannot compete with II the way things stand. II's ability to trade laterally or up beats MDC hands down. They could have launched a good points program. They chose an idiotic exchange system that is the worst "points system" out there. 

Yes, they will try to make it a success. It's too bad that the program's success hinges on destroying our options with II. If they do that route, I anticipate other players, like SFX will jump on the opportunity. Marriott will be playing whack-a-mole with competitors, all of which will be offering a better product. I for one, will go with any competitor that offers a reasonable alternative at a reasonable price because the DC program, in its current form, is idiotic - in particular the "deposit first" waitlist arrangement.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 29, 2010)

John Cerra said:


> As I've stated previously, I doubt they've targeted only a 20% conversion but even if they have, they'd be very happy with more. It is my opinion they'll do what it takes to make the new program a success and that success will almost certainly cause those on the sidelines to want in.



I think they have probably target more than 20% enrollment, but they will be very lucky if they get 20% that convert to points.

Enrollments mean very little, Marriott even indicated they are not counting on income from this to have a marginal impact on their balance sheet. For the program to work they need converters. They will have a harder time with that.


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## Dean (Jul 30, 2010)

DanCali said:


> This program cannot compete with II the way things stand. II's ability to trade laterally or up beats MDC hands down. They could have launched a good points program. They chose an idiotic exchange system that is the worst "points system" out there.
> 
> Yes, they will try to make it a success. It's too bad that the program's success hinges on destroying our options with II. If they do that route, I anticipate other players, like SFX will jump on the opportunity. Marriott will be playing whack-a-mole with competitors, all of which will be offering a better product. I for one, will go with any competitor that offers a reasonable alternative at a reasonable price because the DC program, in its current form, is idiotic - in particular the "deposit first" waitlist arrangement.


We'll see on the idiotic but it certainly is chaotic at this point. As I've stated in other threads before and after the change day, I expect the internal trading preference to go away at some point.  It's also possible they'll do like some other companies where they pick the resort and week to actually deposit though I think this far less likely.  Possibly they could also get II to bolster the "like for like" to mean no uptrades for internal trading.  Personally I think they can make the system work without a lot of tinkering with II but I do expect internal trading for non converted members to evaporate at some point.

From a standpoint of  risk to members, I think the other issues are far more a risk.  Esp the benefits they can bestow to preferred members and the costs they can increase on non converted members.  We'll see, should be an interesting next couple of years.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 30, 2010)

Dean said:


> We'll see on the idiotic but it certainly is chaotic at this point. As I've stated in other threads before and after the change day, I expect the internal trading preference to go away at some point.  It's also possible they'll do like some other companies where they pick the resort and week to actually deposit though I think this far less likely.  Possibly they could also get II to bolster the "like for like" to mean no uptrades for internal trading.  Personally I think they can make the system work without a lot of tinkering with II but I do expect internal trading for non converted members to evaporate at some point.



And this is some peoples view of an owner friendly corporation that only brings enhancements to their program?

I don't see the II preference period disappearing. Starwood actually had theirs expanded I beleive after their previous "enhancements". I also don't see Marriott being able to strong arm II to only do "like for like" exchanges. II won't go for it. As I mentioned in another thread, II is in the business of confirming exchanges. How they do that is no one's business other than their own.


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## BocaBoy (Jul 30, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> By the way, Fredm says that there will be an authorized broker program for points in December.  If I believe in the product, I may end up carrying the product if I can qualify.   However, I am not yet convinced that it is worth the time and effort required to sell it.



An approved broker for POINTS, but not for WEEKS.  (Not even Marriott's own Resale Operations department is approved for weeks sales.)


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## BocaBoy (Jul 30, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> I don't think Marriott is as anti-customer as some of the TUG posts make them seem.



That is what I thought, also, for over a month.  But I have changed my mind.


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## BocaBoy (Jul 30, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> My understanding is that Marriott will not "resell" points in the same manner as they have resold weeks in the past.  Rather, they will buy back your points should you want to get rid of them.  I cannot see where it would make any sense for them to broker a program to "resell" points when they can simply buy them back themselves at a percentage of what was originally paid for them and then turn around and sell them at full price.  Since a point is just a concept, it does not depreciate.  If they give you 40 cents on a dollar for each of your points, they now have that many more points to sell.  I am still skeptical that this is going to be their intention.



I think that is true.  I sort of equate a resale program with a buyback program in the case of points.


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## BocaBoy (Jul 30, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> And if manipulating which weeks you can deposit into II is not legal, how come Starwood apparently gets away it?  (I don't own a Starwood resort; so I have to defer to those who claim that Starwood manipulates weeks going into II.)



I do not own Starwood, but I did attend a Starwood sales presentation in Maui a couple of years ago, and the salesman was heavily touting Starwood's manipulation of weeks going into II.  His motive was to show us that it was hard to trade into Starwood if you did not own there, so he may have been lying.  (But he was very specific with the process that Starwood supposedly uses to accomplish this, and it seemed believable.  By the way, he was a former Marriott salesman and told a lot of lies about how the Marriott system worked.


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## Dean (Jul 30, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> And this is some peoples view of an owner friendly corporation that only brings enhancements to their program?
> 
> I don't see the II preference period disappearing. Starwood actually had theirs expanded I beleive after their previous "enhancements". I also don't see Marriott being able to strong arm II to only do "like for like" exchanges. II won't go for it. As I mentioned in another thread, II is in the business of confirming exchanges. How they do that is no one's business other than their own.


I think they'll do away with the preference and reduced fee for none enrolled/trust members within 6 years (2 contract cycles).  II will do whatever it takes (within reason) to keep Marriott on board.  Given the new program Marriott is likely a better fit for RCI than II.  With losing both Marriott and DVC, II instantly becomes the second best overall.


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## DanCali (Jul 30, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> I do not own Starwood, but I did attend a Starwood sales presentation in Maui a couple of years ago, and the salesman was heavily touting Starwood's manipulation of weeks going into II.  His motive was to show us that it was hard to trade into Starwood if you did not own there, so he may have been lying.  (But he was very specific with the process that Starwood supposedly uses to accomplish this, and it seemed believable.  By the way, he was a former Marriott salesman and told a lot of lies about how the Marriott system worked.



Starwood has had a few changes regarding their II policy some for the better some for the worse.

Up to 1 year ago, they controlled all deposits of owners in the Starwood Vacation Network (the "points" system). That included all owners except resale owners at "voluntary resorts" (their ownership worked more like a weeks system and they deposited their reserved week). For SVN members, Starwood not only controlled the week that got deposited but also the resort. So if a Harborside owner deposited a week, Starwood could deposit an "equivalent" week (like Maui). SVN members were probably 90%+ of owners.

In order to get even more control of inventory (as resale owners increased in number and units from the voluntary resorts exited SVN via a resale), Starwood made some changes last year. Now they control all deposits that go into II from all resorts and all retail and resale owners. However, they will now deposit a week from the same resort an owner gave up, but it could be any week in their season. 

Both before and after these changes, you were less likely to see deposits of prime Starwood weeks into II. It happens, but not via bulk banking and they are usually taken by ongoing searches.


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## fnover (Aug 1, 2010)

I received the following (edited to remove name of advisor and personal information) emails  in response to my questions regading Marriott's deeded weeks resale program: I understand that sometimes advisor's information may not be exactly correct.

  Dear Mr. Nover,



   'The new owner will be able to join the destinations program".     



Kind regards,





Resale Advisor

Marriott Vacation Club International, IPSM

6649 Westwood Blvd, Suite 500

Orlando, FL 32821

866-682-4547 Toll Free

407-903-5995 Fax

Email: resale.operations@vacationclub.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Fred Nover  Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:06 PM
To: MVCI Resale Operations
Subject: Re:   FNOVER 



"Thank you for your prompt response, I understand that units resold by Marriott will be eligible for Marriott Reward points but am also interested to know if the unit is sold by Marriott will the buyer will be eligible to join the Destinations program should they want to ?"

Thanks,

----- Original Message ----- 

From: MVCI Resale Operations 


Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 3:42 PM

Subject:   FNOVER 



 Dear Mr. Nover,



"I can confirm that Marriott has launched the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations program which is a points-based system.  Our weeks-based ownerships will continue to be marketed by Marriott and we now will have a dedicated sales team exclusively selling deeded weeks and a new website advertising our available resale weeks.  It is unclear how the launch of the points system will effect resales but we know there are still buyers and owners that preferred our traditional system and resale weeks will be the preferred option for them since resale weeks when sold convey Marriott Reward points to the buyer".  



Best Regards,







Resale Advisor

Marriott Vacation Club International, IPSM

6649 Westwood Blvd, Suite 500

Orlando, FL 32821

866-682-4547 Toll Free

407-903-5995 Fax

Email: resale.operations@vacationclub.com

ORIGINAL MESSAGE 




Country: USA
State: NJ



General Information Request================================

SUBJECT:
null

Message:
--------------------------------
"My unit is currently listed only with Marriott for resale, I have several questions regarding the new Destination Points program and it's effect on my resale unit; 
Will Marriott continue to offer deeded weeks for resale; If yes will the unit resold by Marriott still be eligible for the Destination Points program even if I elect not to join; 
Or if not' will the week be eligible if I do join now.
Thank you for your prompt response."



Source: https://www.my-vacationclub.com/en-us/contact/contactInfoOwnerAction.do


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## foreverloves (Aug 1, 2010)

That would be different than what's reported, but it makes total sense to me.
Get as many people in points; restricting the Marriott-owned resale arm seemed silly.  Of course, Marriott-sold resales are a fortune!


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## BocaBoy (Aug 1, 2010)

fnover said:


> I received the following (edited to remove name of advisor and personal information) emails  in response to my questions regading Marriott's deeded weeks resale program: I understand that sometimes advisor's information may not be exactly correct.
> 
> Dear Mr. Nover,
> 
> ...




This misinformation is so troubling to me.  The bolded language is not correct.  I know because I have spent hours on the subject, even talking to MVCI corporate executives.  The Director of Customer Advocacy covered it specifically with the Chief Customer Officer and the top operating executives at MVCI.

One telltale clue:  Look at the Resales web site.  It says the unit will be eligible for MR points, but there is a glaring omission of any reference to the Destinations Points Program.  

I am not going to argue the point.  It is what it is, but do not rely on the bolded language or you will be seriously disappointed.


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## BocaBoy (Aug 1, 2010)

foreverloves said:


> That would be different than what's reported, but it makes total sense to me.
> Get as many people in points; restricting the Marriott-owned resale arm seemed silly.  Of course, Marriott-sold resales are a fortune!



Consider the source.  Consider the source of the contrary information.  It is a travesty that the reps are passing out incorrect information on this point.  The Resale Operations advisors are not in any way involved with the points program and probably do not even realize that the weeks they are selling have this defect.

I agree that restricting the Marriott resale arm is silly, but that is what it is.  You may choose to not believe it based on a low level rep's statement, but unfortunately you would be wrong.


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## BocaBoy (Aug 1, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Starwood has had a few changes regarding their II policy some for the better some for the worse.
> 
> Up to 1 year ago, they controlled all deposits of owners in the Starwood Vacation Network (the "points" system). That included all owners except resale owners at "voluntary resorts" (their ownership worked more like a weeks system and they deposited their reserved week). For SVN members, Starwood not only controlled the week that got deposited but also the resort. So if a Harborside owner deposited a week, Starwood could deposit an "equivalent" week (like Maui). SVN members were probably 90%+ of owners.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Dan, for this updated Starwood information.  I think they have very nice resorts, but I did not like their system at all when I heard their sales pitch and I do not like it any better now.  It is good, however,  to know the current state of play.


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## fnover (Aug 1, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Consider the source.  Consider the source of the contrary information.  It is a travesty that the reps are passing out incorrect information on this point.  The Resale Operations advisors are not in any way involved with the points program and probably do not even realize that the weeks they are selling have this defect.
> 
> I agree that restricting the Marriott resale arm is silly, but that is what it is.  You may choose to not believe it based on a low level rep's statement, but unfortunately you would be wrong.



Sooner or later  accurate information will be forthcoming and what we chose to believe or not believe at this point makes little difference. Those of us that have listed our weeks with Marriott resale should find out at some point and that will be the rule that applies.


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## hotcoffee (Aug 1, 2010)

BocaBoy,

I don't wish to contradict your source.  The questions that come into mind for me are:

1.  Will there be a new resale program as has been rumored for a couple of years now? 

2.  What will they resell?

I believe that you have implied that they will resell points.  However, I cannot think of any way that would make sense.  If they sold resale points cheaper than their "new points", then the cheaper resale points sales would cannibalize their regular points sales.  On the other hand, if they sold resale points for the same amount as their new points, then what would be the point of selling them resale at all?  

It would certainly make more sense that if they are planning to start up a new resales program, it would have to be weeks rather than points.  But, in that case, what would be the incentive for paying Marriott a higher amount for a resale that carries no special privileges when you could get one from an independent broker cheaper?  

If your source is correct, then I would say that there will be no new resale program at all.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 1, 2010)

*Title of Thread*

Just to respond to the title of the thread. There isn't anything about the new program that shocks me any more.


----------



## taffy19 (Aug 1, 2010)

*Very long but very disgusted too with the Marriott*



BocaBoy said:


> This misinformation is so troubling to me. The bolded language is not correct. I know because I have spent hours on the subject, even talking to MVCI corporate executives. The Director of Customer Advocacy covered it specifically with the Chief Customer Officer and the top operating executives at MVCI.
> 
> One telltale clue: Look at the Resales web site. It says the unit will be eligible for MR points, but there is a glaring omission of any reference to the Destinations Points Program.
> 
> I am not going to argue the point. It is what it is, but do not rely on the bolded language or you will be seriously disappointed.


I have spoken once with the National Sales Office and several times already with the MVCI Resale Department to find out, if I do not enroll to the Marriott Exchange Program, if that would hurt me selling our timeshare later in case the new owner cannot enroll. The National Sales Office referred me to the MVCI Resale Department and I was told immediately that any deed sold after June 20 will not be eligible to enroll in the new program! I know I posted this on July 3 because someone had given me the wrong information and again on July 9 and on July 24.

BocaBoy, I noticed this post from you and will reply privately. It's too complicated to post and they denied it. I saw it more than once but that's besides the point. I will fill you in privately.

I talked to them the other day again and asked them to send it in writing to me that weeks sold by the MVCI Resales Office would not be eligible to enroll in the new Marriott Exchange Program. I also asked them if I could post it on TUG because of so many different answers we are getting from the Marriott. She said that I could not post it. I cannot post a single email but it is OK for them to destroy our resale value as BocaBoy has already proven with his post.



BocaBoy said:


> My net worth has definitely been hurt. I recently had an offer (at developer prices) for my Waiohai unit through Marriott Resales, but it fell through when the buyer found out that the unit would not be eligible to join the points system (because Marriott Resales is not an "Approved Broker"). Because I have been #1 on the Waiohai Ocean View resale list for over two months now, it is clear that they have been unable to sell even a single Waiohai ocean view unit. THAT IS TANGIBLE AND IT SHOWS THAT VALUE IS WAY DOWN in the best channel to get maximum value.


 
Who do they think they are? I can paraphrase it but then it is another rumor. I am going to do what other people have done here and post part of the email at the end of my post with the information that is in question.

I told them too that they are doing this on purpose so that resale values will drop to practically zero and they can scoop them up with the ROFR. Marriott is treating their most loyal customers like dirt but everyone will feel the consequences by this hardnosed decision and I hope that they will come to their senses before a class action lawsuit will be proposed by some very angry owners. Class action lawsuits are for the birds because they get us nothing but Marriott has to pay the legal fees that will be passed on to us. We should complain to the Department of Real Estate (Real Estate Commission) where the timeshare is located or some other Government Agency like a District Attorney or the Attorney General.

We are so disgusted with the Marriott because this is the second time around that we have been shafted by them because of a change in policy all of the sudden. We upgraded from the DSV-I to the MOC because it was impossible to make the reservation for our week even at 6 AM PST sharp. I even found my original thread about it on TUG so I am not making it up. We didn't like giving up our resort in the desert where we liked to stay a week in the spring but we had no other choice. We love our fixed week at the MOC too but I no longer trust the Marriott as I see them devalue what we own if we enroll and also if we do not enroll because II will have less inventory to offer to the Legacy week owners eventually. I told them to put our unit on the for sale list as I have a foul taste in my mouth when I think of the the Marriott now. 

He told me that they were not selling the MOC yet but are contemplating it and he put my name on the list and he gave me a price ($86,500) that they would sell it for as that corresponds with the points (8650) that are required to stay a week at our fixed week/unit but he immediately said too that Marriott will have special promotions from time to time so he cannot guarantee that price. 

I gather from this that the Trust point prices may drop in price, if sales do not go as well as they would like them to go, so why buy points right away as a Legacy week owner? I do not see many Trust buyers buying that many trust points either to stay one single week at the Lahaina or Napili tower or at any other expensive resort.

They will sell small Trust point packages and with that they sell the dream of going anywhere just like they did with the II directory. Our sales lady never pitched this because we mainly wanted to use our week and lock it off.

I would love to hear them pitch the dream to people off the street who know nothing about timesharing. They will condemn our week based system that they have touted for 25 years as the only way to go and with that the resale value of our weeks will plummet. It is disgusting that they can get away with that and we should complain to the Real Estate Department and find out if it is legal to trash our weeks as they most likely do at these presentations today. 



Latravel said:


> Marriott only sold us the use of one week per year. Access to exchanging and who you can exchange with is up to you. The purchase documents don't make promises other than the use of your week in the season you purchased.
> 
> As far as the business plan, I don't think it is as the poster portrays it. If Marriott designed this program with such mean intentions, customers would not buy it and owners would not join. Customers are not stupid. If you offer a good product, people will buy it. If you insult people's intelligence by offering a product that is inferior, it will fail. I think the OP's post leaves that point out.


Heidi, our sales lady, who sold us the MOC, was honest and didn't misrepresent anything but when we were there in March we were told a bunch of hogwash and I am glad that we didn't fall for the trap as it proves already with BogaBoy's post that she was completely wrong. We are short week 13 on Maui and she said that if we would buy week 13 at a 20% discount, we would already have a 20% equity in our week. This is not a true statement. She didn't mention an investment but what she said was a dishonest statement. They may have said this multiple times to owners, who do not read TUG and they believed them. Most people are not aware of a resale market and they are going to have a nasty surprise if they have to sell suddenly. I told her that we were not going to buy any Marriott (direct or resale) because of the uncertainty with the new points program that was still a rumor then. Just imagine if we had fallen for the ploy but thanks to TUG we are wiser now. You may feel better buying from the Marriott direct but you may be only one of the few amongst the TUGgers today. Marriott is no longer an honest company. JMHO.

I honestly believe that it will get harder to do exchanges with II because of the new Trust points that are going to be sold and these buyers can go to any resort because they paid for it dearly. They have that right but our rights are taken away slowly but surely.

I wrote Mr. Marriott once and I will write him again or the Legal Department or even both because I feel that we are going to suffer financially because of their new program. If we had known this beforehand, we would have never upgraded to the MOC but would have sold the MDS-I and taken a smaller loss than what we may suffer now with new buyers not being able to enroll in the new MEP even when they buy through the MVCI Resale Department which IS the Marriott in disguise.

Are they really out to destroy our values first and then reverse the decision since she used the word CURRENTLY? That would even be more callous, imho.

My husband had a stroke on Maui in 2007 so we may have to sell in a few years anyway because we can no longer travel but with the new Marriott tactics, I would rather sell today than tomorrow. I am so upset with what they are doing to their their valuable customer base and every other owner too because we all pay our yearly maintenance fees to use the week and to keep the property up. Keeping the resort up also benefits the Marriott who may start renting the most desirable condos out in prime time or over the week-ends because they take so many points that not many Trust points owners will book them even, I believe. They are slowly but surely taking control over the Legacy week owners' inventory without most people even realizing it except for the TUGgers here.

I still wonder why they put the voting clause in the documents too? It sounds like more bad news will be coming forward once they reach the majority vote. I no longer trust this company as much as we like the MOC but it will not be the same when we go there next year.

Here is a sentence in the email I received the other day and notice the word "currently". We all know that Marriott has the right to change everything whenever they feel like it because all the documents have so many disclaimers in them and are not even the same from one document to the other. Unbelievable! This is only part of the email. I wished I could post the other email too in it's entirety.

I have a feeling that the punishment is for the Legacy weeks only but not for the resale of points once they start selling them by the Marriott or approved brokers. If this is not prove that they are out to destroy our value, what is? I will ask Mr. Marriott as well as the Legal Department this question and after that I am going to the Government authorities.



> Dear Mrs. XXX,
> 
> Per your request, I am providing the following information. Buyers of resale weeks are currently not eligible to enroll in the Marriott Vacation Destinations™ Program.
> 
> ...


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## BocaBoy (Aug 2, 2010)

There is no legal prohibition against posting an E-mail to you from Marriott.  It is not copyrighted and it is yours to do with as you wish.  You may decide you do not want to post it but Marriott cannot control your decision to do so or not to do so.


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## BocaBoy (Aug 2, 2010)

Mamianka said:


> We bought a resale in May, while at a sales presentation at the Chateau, where we own (bought from Marriott pre-build in 2004).  We have been told repeatedly by our sales rep that as soon as the deed to our new place is recorded in FL - we bought a EOY 2BR LO at BPT - that this will appear on our list or properties;  since we enrolled the Chateau already, just to send him the additional $100 when it does appear, and we will be all set.  Gave us the points amount, etc.  We enrolled to avoid fees for locking off and trading - we have NO intention at this time of ever using Destination Points.
> 
> And if we never can enroll this one - we do not care, since we intend to use it (we trade the LV property to go to BOT - might as well own there - at a price LESS than what we found FSBO).  We realize that everybody';s situation is different - but we are OK with what we did - your mileage may vary.  I will let you know if we hit any problems with enrolling the BPT in a couple of months.



If you bought a resale through Marriott in May you will be able to enroll.  They did not implement the screw job until June 20.


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## taffy19 (Aug 2, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> There is no legal prohibition against posting an E-mail to you from Marriott. It is not copyrighted and it is yours to do with as you wish. You may decide you do not want to post it but Marriott cannot control your decision to do so or not to do so.


Yes, they can because this is what was written under her signature file.  I don't know if they do this with every email?



> MARRIOTT CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPERTY INFORMATION
> This communication contains information from Marriott International, Inc. that may be confidential. Except for personal use by the intended recipient or as expressly authorized by the sender, any person who receives this information is prohibited from disclosing , copying, distributing, and/or using it. If you have received this communication is error, please immediately delete it and all copies, and promptly notify the sender. Nothing in this communication is intended to operate as an electronic signature under applicable law.


 
I will send both emails to you plus the other information too but not tonight as it takes me time to write it. 

Reading the Marriott thread alone with so many posts is exhausting but I read them ALL and I hope that many Marriott owners and new visitors will do too so people get more educated about "timesharing" the New Marriott Way. 

They should have offered the new program free of charge to the Legacy week owners because they need our weeks to make the Trust point buyers happy and they are getting enough from the skim already. Without these weeks, they don't have much to offer to the Trust point buyers unless they keep restricting our choices and benefits we had before or they build new resorts and I doubt this for many years to come, if ever.


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## ironweed (Aug 2, 2010)

*still no invite*

Please tell me how MARRIOTT can make a rule that any weeks I sell, after June 20, are NOT eligible to join the "points" program, when they have not yet informed me about, or invited me to join the "points" program ..


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## Dean (Aug 2, 2010)

ironweed said:


> Please tell me how MARRIOTT can make a rule that any weeks I sell, after June 20, are NOT eligible to join the "points" program, when they have not yet informed me about, or invited me to join the "points" program ..


They purposefully offered no lead time so had they informed you, it would have made no difference.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 2, 2010)

ironweed said:


> Please tell me how MARRIOTT can make a rule that any weeks I sell, after June 20, are NOT eligible to join the "points" program, when they have not yet informed me about, or invited me to join the "points" program ..



No points for YOU!


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## dioxide45 (Aug 2, 2010)

I don't know why Marriott would be worried about people running out to buy resale weeks so they can enroll in the points program?. I know if resale weeks after 6/20 were able to enroll, I wouldn't be running out to snap them up to enroll on the cheap.

The program simply isn't that good.


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## fnover (Aug 3, 2010)

"MARRIOTT CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPERTY INFORMATION
This communication contains information from Marriott International, Inc. that may be confidential. Except for personal use by the intended recipient or as expressly authorized by the sender, any person who receives this information is prohibited from disclosing , copying, distributing, and/or using it. If you have received this communication is error, please immediately delete it and all copies, and promptly notify the sender. Nothing in this communication is intended to operate as an electronic signature under applicable law". 

For the record, this information was NOT included in the email I posted from Marriott, it was dated 7/15/2010.
Perhaps Marriott realized that their advisers were providing conflicting information in their emails and they were then being posted.
I sent another email request today for clarification of their resale policy and if their response doesn't contain the above prohibition I will post the response.


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## winger (Aug 3, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I don't know why Marriott would be worried about people running out to buy resale weeks so they can enroll in the points program?. I know if resale weeks after 6/20 were able to enroll, I wouldn't be running out to snap them up to enroll on the cheap.
> 
> *The program simply isn't that good.*


Have you ever heard of "denial" ?  This phenomena is what causes most successful professionals (e.g. doctors, high-powered executives, etc.) to fail miserably in the stock market.  They believe they are too good to fail.    I will repeat what I have said several times the past year - 'Old Man Marriott' (no offense to the many wiser people out there, just a phrase I learned over the years) has lost it and is falling off his rocker.  It is time to pass on the baton to someone else to make the decisions, decisions that offer better returns for both customers AND stockholder.  I feel somewhere along the way, Marriott went off the proven path that has brought them past success.  Maybe the economic state played some part in the bad decision, but the buck ultimately stops at the top.  Again, time to pass on the baton before there is nothing left of the once proud Marriott legacy.


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## windje2000 (Aug 3, 2010)

winger said:


> Have you ever heard of "denial" ?  This phenomena is what causes most successful professionals (e.g. doctors, high-powered executives, etc.) to fail miserably in the stock market.  They believe they are too good to fail.    I will repeat what I have said several times the past year - 'Old Man Marriott' (no offense to the many wiser people out there, just a phrase I learned over the years) has lost it and is falling off his rocker.  It is time to pass on the baton to someone else to make the decisions, decisions that offer better returns for both customers AND stockholder.  I feel somewhere along the way, Marriott went off the proven path that has brought them past success.  Maybe the economic state played some part in the bad decision, but the buck ultimately stops at the top.  Again, time to pass on the baton before there is nothing left of the once proud Marriott legacy.



What Old Man Marriott "lost" was more than $700 million, and I'm sure he was called on the carpet by the Board and the stockholders. 

What we're seeing is what a management team put together to make it back, fast.


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## tlwmkw (Aug 3, 2010)

windje2000,

Sadly, I think that you are right- they are trying to increase short term profits and get out from under the huge costs that were generated by some of the very expensive real estate that they had invested in (Oceana Palms, and the other new Florida resort) that wasn't selling.  They are doing this at the expense of creating some angry older owners which will hurt them in the long term but I suppose the current execs will be long gone when this all really hits the fan and will have cashed in their options and be sipping mai-tais on the beach somewhere (not at the Aruba Ocean club I suspect- LOL).  It's sad that they have forgotten the old loyal customers.

tlwmkw


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## RedDogSD (Aug 3, 2010)

iconnections said:


> Yes, they can because this is what was written under her signature file.  I don't know if they do this with every email?
> 
> 
> 
> .



One party cannot unilaterally create a legal obligation to you without your consent.  Just because they tell you that you are prohibited from forwarding something does not make it so.  They either have to have you sign something (a binding agreement), or there has to be some type of law against it.


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## Asia2000 (Aug 3, 2010)

tlwmkw said:


> windje2000,
> 
> Sadly, I think that you are right- they are trying to increase short term profits and get out from under the huge costs that were generated by some of the very expensive real estate that they had invested in (Oceana Palms, and the other new Florida resort) that wasn't selling.  They are doing this at the expense of creating some angry older owners which will hurt them in the long term but I suppose the current execs will be long gone when this all really hits the fan and will have cashed in their options and be sipping mai-tais on the beach somewhere (not at the Aruba Ocean club I suspect- LOL).  It's sad that they have forgotten the old loyal customers.
> 
> tlwmkw



Fortunately, websites like TUG are able to call out the tricky, short-term driven plans that Marriott has crafted.  I like it when fellow TUGgers call a spade a spade and directly tell the truth of exactly what is taking place.  This program has been like muddy water since the beginning.  I do hope that all clears up and that those who joined will reap the benefits.  It sounds like everyone will eventually join the program.  It will be interesting to see how Marriott will accomplish this.  Will they force our hand or will they be nice about it?


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## fnover (Aug 5, 2010)

Below is the response to my 7/15 email. There was no prohibition regarding forwarding or posting. 
This response came from the same advisor who, in the last email stated that Marriott resales through them would qualify for entry into the Destination points program. OP"s information was correct.

"Thank you for contacting Resale Operations at Marriott Vacation Club. Our records indicate that your interest in selling your timeshare was registered on November 4, 2008. The current commission remains at 40%. The current sales price is $26,300 (KBC 1bed 2 bath ocean view). *A resale purchase thru Marriott will not be eligible to participate in the Destinations Program.*


While we cannot predict a time frame for a sale, be assured that we will contact you once we can present you with a brokerage listing program. Be aware that the sale of your timeshare is similar to a real estate transaction.  As such, it is subject to market demand, which frequently changes. 



Please keep in mind that you may choose to explore selling on the open market.  This option affords you the opportunity to set your own price and to begin the resale process at any time, regardless of whether your resort is 100% sold by Marriott. To obtain helpful resale guidelines, visit the consumer website from American Resort Development Association: www.ARDA.org / Consumer Information / Resale Guidelines. We recommend that you avoid companies that require upfront fees.



As stated in the governing documents for eligible resorts, Marriott Vacation Club has the Right of First Refusal. As such, owners selling on the open market are required to notify Marriott Vacation Club once a purchaser has been identified and a price agreed upon. Notification can be sent via email at MVCIROFR@vacationclub.com or fax 407-903-5995. Be advised that when inventory is sold on the open market, the purchaser will not have the option to exchange the week for Marriott Rewards points.



We hope that this information has been helpful.  Advise us if we can assist further".



Best regards,


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## Michigan Czar (Aug 5, 2010)

fnover, thanks for posting the response. That is really disappointing! So they sell it at full Marriott list price, give you 60% and the buyer paying 100% of Marriott list price cannot use it in the points program, unbelievable!


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## taffy19 (Aug 5, 2010)

Can you imagine being the MVCI Resale Department at the Marriott company and trying to sell a Marriott week to new buyers and then telling them that they will be second class owners because they cannot participate in the new Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program?  I am sure that they will have to disclose this fact since they are real estate brokers or salesmen.  I am sure that this is law all over the USA.  I know that it is in California.

I wonder now if they left this important fact out when they sold Boca Boy's Waiohai week.  Isn't that misrepresentation?  These sales people will have a tough job selling their resale inventory with such a severe restriction.  Why even bother having a Resale Department?  It doesn't make sense to me.  I keep asking myself why they are doing this?  I would love to get an honest answer from the Resale Department or the Corporate Office.

I still feel that it will affect our resale value in a negative way and our ownership has changed since we bought it and it is the same for everyone of us who bought direct from the Marriott or resale too but the direct buyers will get hurt the most.  It is like having a restriction on our deed.  JMHO.

People, who sold through the Marriott before did normally better than people who sold the week on their own and the buyer qualified for the MRPs too so why not for enrolling in the new program even if they have to pay an enrollment fee what present owners are paying too?  Why not give the new buyer a choice like we have now?  That would make sense to me.


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## windje2000 (Aug 5, 2010)

iconnections said:


> Can you imagine being the MVCI Resale Department at the Marriott company and trying to sell a Marriott week to new buyers and then telling them that they will be second class owners because they cannot participate in the new Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program?  I am sure that they will have to disclose this fact since they are real estate brokers or salesmen.  I am sure that this is law all over the USA.  I know that it is in California.
> 
> I wonder now if they left this important fact out when they sold Boca Boy's Waiohai week.  Isn't that misrepresentation?  These sales people will have a tough job selling their resale inventory with such a severe restriction.  Why even bother having a Resale Department?  It doesn't make sense to me.  I keep asking myself why they are doing this?  I would love to get an honest answer from the Resale Department or the Corporate Office.
> 
> ...



Marriott is now in the business of selling points.  Resales of deeded product compete with points, and would hurt points sales.


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## hotcoffee (Aug 5, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Marriott is now in the business of selling points.  Resales of deeded product compete with points, and would hurt points sales.



I agree that is how the Marriott people are thinking.  However, this rollout suggests that they are not the best at what they do.  I think they could make a go of reselling weeks that automatically come pre-enrolled into the points program.  The cost of enrollment in that case would be built in to the sale cost.  

In fact, if they were to offer any resale buyer a permanent option to enroll, it would keep resale values high and make a Marriott timeshare a much more desirable purchase.  The way Marriott is handling resales, if it becomes generally known to the public, I think will in the end hurt their sales - both resale weeks and points.  People will think twice about buying from a company that treats their customers so poorly.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 5, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> The way Marriott is handling resales, if it becomes generally known to the public, I think will in the end hurt their sales - both resale weeks and points.  People will think twice about buying from a company that treats their customers so poorly.



There are many timeshare companies (Westgate and Wyndham to name two) that try their best to ruin resale values. It hasn't hurt them. The economy overall has, but their attack on resales hasn't.

The fact remains that very few people know about the resale market for timeshares when they go to a presentation. The stats on the number of people who buy at a presentation have only been hurt by the current economy. Once it picks up, those ratios will get better.

The Internet isn't new and TUG and many other sites are well established. They haven't put a dent in the developer timeshare market.


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## thinze3 (Aug 5, 2010)

But Marriott needs Maui! They also need Kauai. They need deeded weeks owners in high profile locations to join and be a permanent part of their inventory. How else can one trade their newly purchased 8K points into Hawaii?


.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 5, 2010)

thinze3 said:


> But Marriott needs Maui! They also need Kauai. They need deeded weeks owners in high profile locations to join and be a permanent part of their inventory. How else can one trade their newly purchased 8000K points into Hawaii?



Well, the trust has plenty of Hawaii inventory, at least in Oahu and Maui. So for HI it isn't a problem having the weeks for those new 8K points owners to reserve.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 5, 2010)

thinze3 said:


> But Marriott needs Maui! They also need Kauai. They need deeded weeks owners in high profile locations to join and be a permanent part of their inventory. How else can one trade their newly purchased 8000K points into Hawaii?



It appears when an Exchange Member calls for a Points reservation that the reps are able to access II inventory in addition to whatever inventory Marriott is holding outside the Trust.  I'd guess that the same holds true for Trust Members as far as II inventory, so as long as any Weeks owners (enrolled and un-enrolled) are depositing Hawaii and the other high profile locations into II then the Trust Members' requests can be satisfied.  Whether or not Exchange Members convert to Points for exchanges or keep using their Weeks in II, it appears that the DC reps are accessing the same exchange inventory.

The reason I think that Marriott can access II inventory simultaneously is because I requested 3 different resorts for 6 days with a Sunday check-in and thought she was searching only Marriott inventory, and one resort had availability.  But I asked her to check in II for the other 2 resorts for the 7 days with Saturday check-in instead and she said, "if your 6-day dates are not available then most likely the 7-day dates won't be either."  Made me think she'd already searched II for all 3 resorts for that week.


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## GregT (Aug 5, 2010)

thinze3 said:


> But Marriott needs Maui! They also need Kauai. They need deeded weeks owners in high profile locations to join and be a permanent part of their inventory. How else can one trade their newly purchased 8000K points into Hawaii?



Terry, 

I agree that they need MOC and Waihai, but I suspect they have plenty of Ko Olina, Kauai Lagoons and KBC.  I called today about what was available, and pretty much anything was available at Ko Olina and pretty much nothing was available (during the summer at least) at MOC.

We'll really know more about availability in 2012/2013 when they have a full year to prepare, and there are many redemptions/borrowed units.  But I agree with the fundamental point that they have to get the (rightful) owners of the hard-to-get properties to participate.

I've still not seen any availability at Frenchman's Cove -- I expect things to "unfreeze" over time, but it may take awhile.

Best to all,

Greg


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## fnover (Aug 6, 2010)

Michigan Czar said:


> fnover, thanks for posting the response. That is really disappointing! So they sell it at full Marriott list price, give you 60% and the buyer paying 100% of Marriott list price cannot use it in the points program, unbelievable!



Also unbelievable is that when I tried to call the resale office for additional information, per the new web site, I was on hold for 25 minutes, I finally hung up. Some how I don't think the are going to sell very many units this way.


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## BocaBoy (Aug 7, 2010)

iconnections said:


> I wonder now if they left this important fact out when they sold Boca Boy's Waiohai week.



That is a good thought.  Maybe they did not disclose this up front and when they did disclose it later the buyer backed out.  Interesting speculation.  All I really know is that the sale of my Waiohai week fell through just before the new program was announced and all interest after that time has suddenly dried up.


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## BocaBoy (Aug 7, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> Well, the trust has plenty of Hawaii inventory, at least in Oahu and Maui.



I agree that the trust has a lot of Ko Olina inventory, but the unsold inventory in Maui was quite limited, so the trust has to be short on Maui inventory.


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## mj2vacation (Aug 7, 2010)

We were told this week that Maui had 5 years of inventory on the books prior to points.


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## linmcginn (Aug 7, 2010)

Seven years ago We purchased NCV resale. We have never used points. We make our reservations & exchanges though II and will continue to do so. Over the years we've made some awesome exchanges!Recently made our 2011 summer reservation for NCV  and then put it into the II exchange (also got an AC). So far I have seen exchanges available to Marriott Oceana Palms, Marriott Crystal Shores, 1 bedroom at Ko Olina, Four Seasons Avaira and our home resort NCV to name a few. Can't comment on points because we've never used them and have no plans on joining the "club"!


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## GregT (Aug 7, 2010)

mj2vacation said:


> We were told this week that Maui had 5 years of inventory on the books prior to points.



The Trust has 4.6M points worth of Maui inventory, representing 832 full weeks, so that's a fair amount of Trust inventory.

This included depositing 11 full units (presumably Napili), all 52 weeks out of the year. 

Thanks,

Greg


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## BocaBoy (Aug 7, 2010)

GregT said:


> The Trust has 4.6M points worth of Maui inventory, representing 832 full weeks, so that's a fair amount of Trust inventory.
> 
> This included depositing 11 full units (presumably Napili), all 52 weeks out of the year.
> 
> ...



832 weeks is about 2.2% of the total number of weeks in Maui.  That sounds about right and means they really do not have much Maui inventory in the trust.


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## GregT (Aug 7, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> 832 weeks is about 2.2% of the total number of weeks in Maui.  That sounds about right and means they really do not have much Maui inventory in the trust.



It's really hard to tell what's a lot and what's a little, but I wish they had 11 full (ie, 52 weeks) units of Frenchman's Cove in the Trust.  

I agree that 832 weeks is not alot of inventory, but at least it is inventory that is controlled by the Trust/Exchange Manager, versus needing someone to deposit it in II redeem it with points in order for it to be accessible.

We will still learn alot about availability in the days (years?) ahead.  

All the best,

Greg


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## BocaBoy (Aug 21, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> Keep in mind that there is still a possibility that what has been posted here might not apply to the new resale program that Marriott is rumored to be planning to deploy before the end of the year.  If they were to implement a full resale program, then at least we might have a way out if we needed to sell due to changes in our family, health, financial situation, etc.  Such a program might even come with an automatic points enrollment as an incentive for buyers.
> 
> I would be satisfied if they implemented such a program.



So would I.


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## vacationtime1 (Aug 21, 2010)

Marriott needs to create a points resale program and I am confident it will implement one soon. Of course Marriott will; it will be a profit center.

What is surprising is that when Marriott rolled out the points program, it didn't announce any rules about resales.  It may be that with the multiple postponements in implementing the new system, Marriott needed its existing Resale Department to continue as long as possible without being influenced or affected by the new system, intentionally kept them in the dark, and are only now beginning to switch that department over to the new regime.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 21, 2010)

vacationtime1 said:


> Marriott needs to create a points resale program and I am confident it will implement one soon. Of course Marriott will; it will be a profit center.
> 
> What is surprising is that when Marriott rolled out the points program, it didn't announce any rules about resales.  It may be that with the multiple postponements in implementing the new system, Marriott needed its existing Resale Department to continue as long as possible without being influenced or affected by the new system, intentionally kept them in the dark, and are only now beginning to switch that department over to the new regime.



The problem with a point resale system is the same problem with resales at resorts not yet sold out. Marriott will always put their own points ahead of those on the resale list. So in the new system with millions of points to sell, it will be years before there would be a need for any point resale system. By that time, Marriott may have started building new resorts again, so there will be their own new points going in to the trust.

I doubt that Marriott will ever develop a points resale program. Buyers of points are on their own trying to resell their points should they ever need to.


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## Herb33 (Aug 21, 2010)

*Fwiw ...*

I sent the following email to David Babich and the Corporate Customer Advocacy office:

--------

I recently saw the following information posted on the Timeshare Users Group (TUG) website:

All the language in the documents (e.g., Paragraph D on page 13 of the Exchange Procedures document) mean ... that weeks purchasers have the right to join. However, other parts of the documents give Marriott flexibility to not apply these provisions. And buried in the fine print of what we sign when we enroll (in the E-mail, not the official documents) is language that says MVEC reserves the right to only offer participation in the program through an enrollment agreement to owners who purchased their timeshare through an Approved Broker. (Paragraph 5(o) of the enrollment E-Mail.)

    It gets worse. Marriott does not consider Marriott Resales to be an Approved Broker. They have no Approved Brokers. Marriott is the developer, but they are not selling the resale weeks--Marriott Resales is. Therefore, NO NEW WEEKS PURCHASERS CAN JOIN, EVEN IF PURCHASED AT DEVELOPER PRICES THROUGH MARRIOTT RESALES. I bought my weeks from Marriott, but even if I sell them through Marriott, they will not allow the purchaser to join.​

Three questions: 

1.  Is it true that MVC does not regard Marriott Resales as an Approved Broker for the resale of Marriott timeshare weeks?

2.  Who are the brokers that MVC regards as Approved Brokers for the resale of Marriott timeshare weeks?

3.  Is MVC currently selling memberships in the new points-based ownership program to people who own MVC timeshare weeks purchased from Marriott Resales but who do not own weeks puchased directly from MVC?


------

If I get a response -- not holding my breath -- I'll post it here.


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## bogey21 (Aug 21, 2010)

iconnections said:


> .......and then telling them that they will be second class owners because they cannot participate in the new Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program?



*Some of us think that the "second class owners" are those that are in the new Marriott Vacation Club DEstinations Exchange Program!*


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## NJDave (Aug 21, 2010)

bogey21 said:


> *Some of us think that the "second class owners" are those that are in the new Marriott Vacation Club DEstinations Exchange Program!*



And those that don't join are third class owners?


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## Herb33 (Aug 21, 2010)

Maybe I've missed this point somewhere along the way, but ...

Does anyone here know for a FACT if it is Marriott's current policy to NOT allow people who own weeks purchased thru Marriott Resales to enroll those weeks in the new program?

Is there anyone here who bought into the new program and was denied enrollment of weeks they had purchased thru Marriott Resales?


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## jin (Aug 21, 2010)

Herb33 said:


> Maybe I've missed this point somewhere along the way, but ...
> 
> Does anyone here know for a FACT if it is Marriott's current policy to NOT allow people who own weeks purchased thru Marriott Resales to enroll those weeks in the new program?
> 
> Is there anyone here who bought into the new program and was denied enrollment of weeks they had purchased thru Marriott Resales?



I don't understand the premise of this entire continued thread.  A lot of resale units have been enrolled in the new program.  I have 4 weeks from 3 different non-marriott "unauthorized" sellers that I enrolled online for $1995 with no problem.  Am I missing something?  Why is there still so much discussion about this issue???  Someone please clarify!!!


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## dioxide45 (Aug 21, 2010)

jin said:


> I don't understand the premise of this entire continued thread.  A lot of resale units have been enrolled in the new program.  I have 4 weeks from 3 different non-marriott "unauthorized" sellers that I enrolled online for $1995 with no problem.  Am I missing something?  Why is there still so much discussion about this issue???  Someone please clarify!!!



This isn't about past resale purchases. It is about resale purchases made after June 29, 2010.


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## hotcoffee (Aug 21, 2010)

GregT said:


> It's really hard to tell what's a lot and what's a little, but I wish they had 11 full (ie, 52 weeks) units of Frenchman's Cove in the Trust.



Frenchman's Cove has about 30% of its weeks unsold.  As I noted in another thread, they are still selling weeks there due to the government of USVI not yet approving their conversion to points.

Even after they convert to points, it is unlikely that inventory will immediately be put into the Trust because the Trust still has a lot of points unsold.  I don't see why Marriott would be in any hurry to add more points to the Trust when they have not sold anything close to what they already have there.  

When they finally do convert to points and are no longer selling those unsold weeks, I cannot think of any reason Marriott would not dump them into its own exchange inventory rather than bulk deposit them into II.  They want warm bodies in those units for those weeks, and it makes more sense for them to support their own exchange program than II's.



GregT said:


> I agree that 832 weeks is not alot of inventory, but at least it is inventory that is controlled by the Trust/Exchange Manager, versus needing someone to deposit it in II redeem it with points in order for it to be accessible.



I think 832 weeks (note: I thought it was actually around 621) is a significant amount of inventory if they are all floating.  Prior to the points program, those weeks would have been difficult exchange into because I would assume that Marriott could not bulk deposit them until they were sure they could not possible sell them or make some other use for them.  Now, they will likely end up in the points exchange inventory before they ever get bulk deposited.  That means more people will probably be going to Maui in the upcoming years.


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## GregT (Aug 21, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> I think 832 weeks (note: I thought it was actually around 621) is a significant amount of inventory if they are all floating.  Prior to the points program, those weeks would have been difficult exchange into because I would assume that Marriott could not bulk deposit them until they were sure they could not possible sell them or make some other use for them.  Now, they will likely end up in the points exchange inventory before they ever get bulk deposited.  *That means more people will probably be going to Maui in the upcoming years*.



Hotcoffee,

We definitely agree on this point -- I view it as a positive that those weeks are permanently implanted in the Trust, which means there will always be some access to MOC in the Trust, versus dependence on MRP trades/II exchanges to get the higher demand properties.  I just don't know if 832 is alot, that would be terrific if MOC turns out to be easily accessible.  

All the best,

Greg


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## Herb33 (Aug 22, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> This isn't about past resale purchases. It is about resale purchases made after June 29, 2010.



So ... the current Marriott policy is to not allow enrollment of resale purchases made after 6/29/10, even if the purchase is made from Marriott Resales?

Do we know this for a FACT?

Or is this just speculation based on fine print that says Marriott reserves the right to set such a policy?

Where did the 6/29/10 cut-off date come from?  Is it in the progarm documentation somewhere?  Or is this something else somebody heard in a phone conversation with someone at HQ?


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## Herb33 (Aug 22, 2010)

Okay, I found the answers to my questions in Dave M's summary and the Marriott FAQs ...

I originally purchased my Marriott Vacation Club week(s) as an external sale through the secondary market. Would the benefits of enrolling be different for me?

If your external purchase closed prior to June 20, 2010, it is eligible to be enrolled with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program. The enrollment fee for one externally purchased week will initially be $1,495, and enrolling multiple externally purchased weeks will initially total $1,995. This offer is expected to be available only through December 31, 2010. Once you enroll your week(s), you will gain the annual option to elect Vacation Club Points, and you may also add the option of trading your week(s) for Marriott Rewards points if the week(s) you purchased externally are eligible for Marriott Rewards trade. You also will gain the benefit and convenience of the annual single-use fee (Club Dues).​
This seems quite definitive.  A Marriott week purchased through resale after 6/20/10 will not be enrolled.  Regardless of who the resale broker is.  Period.

So now I'm a little confused as to what the breaking news was at the top of this thread.


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## jin (Aug 22, 2010)

Herb33 said:


> Okay, I found the answers to my questions in Dave M's summary and the Marriott FAQs ...
> 
> I originally purchased my Marriott Vacation Club week(s) as an external sale through the secondary market. Would the benefits of enrolling be different for me?
> 
> ...



One of the weeks I enrolled was in closing prior to 6-20-10, but actually closed sometime AFTER 6-20-10, yet was still eligible for the new program....


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## jin (Aug 22, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> This isn't about past resale purchases. It is about resale purchases made after June 29, 2010.



OK, but it has been known since day one when the program was first released, that no resales after 6-20-10 would be eligible for the new program . I still don't understand all the continued discussion!


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## dioxide45 (Aug 22, 2010)

jin said:


> OK, but it has been known since day one when the program was first released, that no resales after 6-20-10 would be eligible for the new program . I still don't understand all the continued discussion!



I think it was just confirmation of the ambiguous wording in the actual exchange documentation. The documents are not clear about the eligibility of resale purchases to enroll.


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## BocaBoy (Aug 26, 2010)

Herb33 said:


> So ... the current Marriott policy is to not allow enrollment of resale purchases made after 6/29/10, even if the purchase is made from Marriott Resales?
> 
> *Do we know this for a FACT?
> 
> ...



I would not have posted it if it were not a FACT!  (And the date is actually 6/20/10.)


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## BocaBoy (Aug 26, 2010)

Herb33 said:


> I sent the following email to David Babich and the Corporate Customer Advocacy office:
> 
> --------
> 
> ...



Who do you think my source was for the OP?


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