# [2019] MVC Owner Update for Sheraton Owner



## teddyo333 (Aug 13, 2019)

My wife and I just attended a Owner update at the Marriott Lakeshore Reserve and was proposed the following:

Option 1
2000 Points
Trade in (1) Marriott SunSet Pointe (Not enrolled - Purchased resale for $600 post 2010)
Total Cost Before Trade-In: $28520
-$4320 (SunSet Pointe Trade-In)
-$799 (Encore Package Purchased for Feb 2020)
$23401 (New Money and will include 2000 DP as well as Chairman's Club Status/Lifetime Titanium Status for Marriott Rewards)

Option 2
1000 Points
Total Cost: $14260
-$799 (Encore Package Purchased for Feb 2020)
$13461 (New Money and will include 1000 DP as well as Chairman's Club Status/Lifetime Titanium Status for Marriott Rewards)

The sale rep told us that there would be a range of points that would be associated with each of our current Sheraton/Westin properties and that would equate to 25K to 35K total points based on the properties we own (point conversion would only occur  upon request and would not affect Star Options). This would qualify us for Chairman's status. He also stated that the properties that were even purchased via resale would qualify for this benefit as long as they were purchased prior to the new program being announce in 2020.

We would have been all over this for 1000 points if it were backed up with documentation. The sales rep took our information and stated that he would contact us as soon as the documentation becomes available. This would be a win for Marriott in regards to new money and for property owners for access to new properties. Here's hope there is some truth to this but still happy with what we already have if everything stays the same.


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

teddyo333 said:


> My wife and I just attended a Owner update at the Marriott Lakeshore Reserve and was proposed the following:
> 
> Option 1
> 2000 Points
> ...


I’m assuming this is all based on your current ownerships. I wonder how he came up with the 25-35K DC point figure.


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## SeaDoc (Aug 13, 2019)

teddyo333 said:


> My wife and I just attended a Owner update at the Marriott Lakeshore Reserve and was proposed the following:
> 
> Option 1
> 2000 Points
> ...



Remain skeptical, get in writing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JIMinNC (Aug 13, 2019)

teddyo333 said:


> My wife and I just attended a Owner update at the Marriott Lakeshore Reserve and was proposed the following:
> 
> Option 1
> 2000 Points
> ...



Interesting tactic with Option 1. Typically for a 2000 point purchase, MVC has traditionally offered a 15% or more discount off of the list price (in this case $14.26/point). But instead of just offering you the discount they have always offered, they are giving you 15% off in exchange for your Sunset Pointe week. So, you would essentially be giving them your week for free based on their past pricing strategy of offering an at least 15% discount off list to most buyers. If this is their new tactic to reacquire deeded weeks, I'm not impressed.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 13, 2019)

CPNY said:


> I’m assuming this is all based on your current ownerships. I wonder how he came up with the 25-35K DC point figure.



I would be quite surprised if, this far out from program announcement, local sales reps have been informed of any actual conversion values of VSE weeks into the hypothetical new program. Since the OP's weeks are pretty much in places where MVC also has resorts, my suspicion is the sales rep was just using the current values in the MVC system for similar resorts and estimating the potential value of the OP's ownership. That's my guess, at least.


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## teddyo333 (Aug 13, 2019)

CPNY said:


> I’m assuming this is all based on your current ownerships. I wonder how he came up with the 25-35K DC point figure.



Yes this is bas e on the existing properties we own. We have 11 properties total. Most in Scottsdale and one in Hawaii


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I would be quite surprised if, this far out from program announcement, local sales reps have been informed of any actual conversion values of VSE weeks into the hypothetical new program. Since the OP's weeks are pretty much in places where MVC also has resorts, my suspicion is the sales rep was just using the current values in the MVC system for similar resorts and estimating the potential value of the OP's ownership. That's my guess, at least.


It makes me laugh that the sales rep “thinks” his current ownerships would be worth 25-35K and he’s trying to sell him 2K more for 30 thousand dollars lol. Is 2K points really going to make a difference adding on to 35K points?! His “lying” approach should have been something like you have to buy into the DC now to possibly have your current VSE weeks worth 35K enrolled.


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## teddyo333 (Aug 13, 2019)

CPNY said:


> It makes me laugh that the sales rep “thinks” his current ownerships would be worth 25-35K and he’s trying to sell him 2K more for 30 thousand dollars lol. Is 2K points really going to make a difference adding on to 35K points?! His “lying” approach should have been something like you have to buy into the DC now to possibly have your current VSE weeks worth 35K enrolled.



That is exactly why we asked him for documented proof of the Starwood conversation. This is when the presentation came to an end and he requested our information to send us the documentation when it becomes available. I told him that we do not make deals without documented proof. Short and sweet . He was very professional and seemed confident that we would be talking again in the future. We'll see


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## kds4 (Aug 13, 2019)

teddyo333 said:


> My wife and I just attended a Owner update at the Marriott Lakeshore Reserve and was proposed the following:
> 
> Option 1
> 2000 Points
> ...



This is consistent with information presented to us in July during an owner update (but with more detail than was even discussed with us). Did he give you any indication of when documentation would be forthcoming other than the new program being announced in 2020? What I find interesting is the offer of Chairman's Club with the purchase of 1,000 points. Not knowing your investment in Sheraton/Westin purchases, this sounds like a very cheap way to top-tier status.

Was the offer for you to purchase at your presentation or only a 'feeler' of what may be coming in the future? If you could have purchased then, the documentation would appear in your closing paperwork. If you didn't see the representations there regarding your Sheraton/Westin ownership enrollment and/or Chairman's Club status, you could just not sign.


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## teddyo333 (Aug 13, 2019)

kds4 said:


> This is consistent with information presented to us in July during an owner update (but with more detail than was even discussed with us). Did he give you any indication of when documentation would be forthcoming other than the new program being announced in 2020? What I find interesting is the offer of Chairman's Club with the purchase of 1,000 points. Not knowing your investment in Sheraton/Westin purchases, this sounds like a very cheap way to top-tier status.
> 
> Was the offer for you to purchase at your presentation or only a 'feeler' of what may be coming in the future? If you could have purchased then, the documentation would appear in your closing paperwork. If you didn't see the representations there regarding your Sheraton/Westin ownership enrollment and/or Chairman's Club status, you could just not sign.



He just stated that it was coming in 2020 and he could not supply us with any documentation. He gave the impression that the documentation was coming but he could not make it a guarantee in order for is to sign the contract. We are in no hurry. I would rather wait until something is officially announced by Marriott.


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## kds4 (Aug 13, 2019)

teddyo333 said:


> He just stated that it was coming in 2020 and he could not supply us with any documentation. He gave the impression that the documentation was coming but he could not make it a guarantee in order for is to sign the contract. We are in no hurry. I would rather wait until something is officially announced by Marriott.



Understandable. It will be interesting to see if what he told you is consistent with future announcements.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 13, 2019)

A lot of us have been assuming that the eventual introduction of whatever integrated product they create will mirror the introduction of the DC in 2010, perhaps with a reasonable fee-based enrollment option. The more I think about it though, I'm not so sure any more. I think the circumstances today are totally different than they were in 2010.

In 2010, MVC was simply creating a new way to book/use what everyone had always had access to (the new points system vs. the old weeks system). The creation of the DC did not add any new locations, it just meant those who joined could access the same locations in a different way. Since most people were happy with the old system in the aggregate, to get people to adopt the new way, they probably felt they either had to 1.) make it easy/cheap or 2.) create fear that the new system would diminish the value of the legacy system. In fact, they used both tactics - they did make it easy/cheap and have used the "II trades will dry up" argument from the outset.

This time it's different. Both MVC and VSN have mature, established point systems that both essentially function in the same macro manner - you can use points to book rather than trade, and you can do short stays, etc. What they would really be adding now for each program is a host of new locations to visit. It doesn't seem farfetched that the folks at corporate might feel that this brings more substantial value to existing owners, and that can be spun and sold in a way that they don't have to offer the easy/cheap route this time. So, instead of it being a $1300 fee to join the new program, it could mean $20K or $30K of new money as the buy-in. That would certainly reduce participation rates, but if they think selling the sizzle of the new locations offers them the ability to boost overall sales, they might not really care about actual participation rates, and it might be a more likely path this time.

Also, if what the OP was pitched means that legacy Marriott sales offices are now using the "turn in your week to get the discount on the points" sales tactic (which seems to mirror the "retro" approach used by VSE), that may indicate a change in strategy for trying to shift inventory out of the legacy weeks systems into the points trusts.


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## Fasttr (Aug 13, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Interesting tactic with Option 1. Typically for a 2000 point purchase, MVC has traditionally offered a 15% or more discount off of the list price (in this case $14.26/point). But instead of just offering you the discount they have always offered, they are giving you 15% off in exchange for your Sunset Pointe week. So, you would essentially be giving them your week for free based on their past pricing strategy of offering an at least 15% discount off list to most buyers. If this is their new tactic to reacquire deeded weeks, I'm not impressed.


Jim....do they usually give a 15% discount at 2000 points including incentives?  Seems to me that the following is what I see posted here most often....
3000 point purchase required to achieve 
 15% price discount with incentives....and additional incentive for financing.
 20% price discount with no incentives....but with incentive for financing. 

I don't recall seeing many 15% discounted 2000 point quotes including incentives (like his add'l 2000 DP's mentioned above).  But then again, I could have missed them.


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## pchung6 (Aug 13, 2019)

deleted.


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

teddyo333 said:


> That is exactly why we asked him for documented proof of the Starwood conversation. This is when the presentation came to an end and he requested our information to send us the documentation when it becomes available. I told him that we do not make deals without documented proof. Short and sweet . He was very professional and seemed confident that we would be talking again in the future. We'll see


Ahhh yes. The confident approach..... the I don’t care if you walk now because I KNOW you’ll be back. As if his bravado will validate his “honesty”. Timeshare sales people are the pits. Lol


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

I have to call back central sales. They called with a bundle offer today


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## JIMinNC (Aug 13, 2019)

Fasttr said:


> Jim....do they usually give a 15% discount at 2000 points including incentives?  Seems to me that the following is what I see posted here most often....
> 3000 point purchase required to achieve
> 15% price discount with incentives....and additional incentive for financing.
> 20% price discount with no incentives....but with incentive for financing.
> ...



Back in April 2018 (our last presentation) we were pitched a bundle package that included 2000 points. The list price was $27920 for the points ($13.96), but the offer was $23720 ($11.86). That's a 15% discount. Back in 2014, we did not get any discount for only 1750 points. So, my assumption has always been the first discount level is 2000.


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> So, instead of it being a $1300 fee to join the new program, it could mean $20K or $30K of new money as the buy-in.
> 
> Also, if what the OP was pitched means that legacy Marriott sales offices are now using the "turn in your week to get the discount on the points" sales tactic (which seems to mirror the "retro" approach used by VSE), that may indicate a change in strategy for trying to shift inventory out of the legacy weeks systems into the points trusts.



I don’t think as many people will buy in as you think. But that’s just my opinion. 

The “retro” approach is fairly new. You could always retro with 20K new money. But as of recently it’s been lowered to 10K and this is the first time that I know of (again, I could be completely wrong) that they are offering “buy backs” for weeks and giving fake money in my mind, to buy into the new flex program. Is it to gain back weeks for inventory or is it just to increase sales revenue? Either way, it’s new to me.


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## Fasttr (Aug 13, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Back in April 2018 (our last presentation) we were pitched a bundle package that included 2000 points. The list price was $27920 for the points ($13.96), but the offer was $23720 ($11.86). That's a 15% discount. Back in 2014, we did not get any discount for only 1750 points. So, my assumption has always been the first discount level is 2000.


That could also be that it was because it was part of a bundle.  Will have to search for some stand alone quotes for 2000 and see what I find.


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## DannyTS (Aug 13, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> A lot of us have been assuming that the eventual introduction of whatever integrated product they create will mirror the introduction of the DC in 2010, perhaps with a reasonable fee-based enrollment option. The more I think about it though, I'm not so sure any more. I think the circumstances today are totally different than they were in 2010.
> 
> In 2010, MVC was simply creating a new way to book/use what everyone had always had access to (the new points system vs. the old weeks system). The creation of the DC did not add any new locations, it just meant those who joined could access the same locations in a different way. Since most people were happy with the old system in the aggregate, to get people to adopt the new way, they probably felt they either had to 1.) make it easy/cheap or 2.) create fear that the new system would diminish the value of the legacy system. In fact, they used both tactics - they did make it easy/cheap and have used the "II trades will dry up" argument from the outset.
> 
> ...


To me it is more a matter of do they want the enrollment money fast or slowly? A reasonable enrollment fee (say $1000) means a lot of people will want to participate and it can be done through an online registration, virtually at no cost. We have also debated before if the skim is profitable to them, I believe so. Maybe not as profitable as I thought at the beginning but even 3-4% of the whole Vistana inventory can mean a lot of units for them to rent. 
Conversely they can do it through the sales dept  but it is going to take a lot of time to get to the same numbers and it is going to be costly since they spend about 50% on the sales people, marketing etc. The other problem is that the sales force would just concentrate on this for a while, easier commission I assume, while leaving the other segments of the sales in the back burner. Those other segments can also mean more profit for the company in the long run since they mean bringing more fresh blood into the system. Lastly, implementing any kind of overlay will cost them money. A slow just  just means costs and little to no new revenue and I do not see how this is a good thing. 

Of course the sales people want everything to go through them. Is it in the interest of the shareholders though? I believe not.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 13, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> A lot of us have been assuming that the eventual introduction of whatever integrated product they create will mirror the introduction of the DC in 2010, perhaps with a reasonable fee-based enrollment option. The more I think about it though, I'm not so sure any more. I think the circumstances today are totally different than they were in 2010.
> 
> In 2010, MVC was simply creating a new way to book/use what everyone had always had access to (the new points system vs. the old weeks system). The creation of the DC did not add any new locations, it just meant those who joined could access the same locations in a different way. Since most people were happy with the old system in the aggregate, to get people to adopt the new way, they probably felt they either had to 1.) make it easy/cheap or 2.) create fear that the new system would diminish the value of the legacy system. In fact, they used both tactics - they did make it easy/cheap and have used the "II trades will dry up" argument from the outset.
> 
> ...



If they go with such an approach it will take a very long time to get quality VSN inventory in the DC system. I also am not sure if this will generate sufficient revenue rapidly that Wall St. expects from the acquisition. But I am certain they will run the scenarios and go with the program that maximizes revenue.  This is a classic price elasticity problem.

We would not go for such a high priced offer to get a few more locations so we will simply use what we own with SOs. This slow approach will assure that the VSN inventory remains stable because there will be a large group of owners who will not enroll. So I would be good with it.

If they go with a low cost high volume enrollment approach similar to 2010 enrollment, then many more will participate (including ourselves).


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## JIMinNC (Aug 13, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> To me it is more a matter of do they want the enrollment money fast or slowly? A reasonable enrollment fee (say $1000) means a lot of people will want to participate and it can be done through an online registration, virtually at no cost. We have also debated before if the skim is profitable to them, I believe so. Maybe not as profitable as I thought at the beginning but even 3-4% of the whole Vistana inventory can mean a lot of units for them to rent.
> Conversely they can do it through the sales dept  but it is going to take a lot of time to get to the same numbers and it is going to be costly since they spend about 50% on the sales people, marketing etc. The other problem is that the sales force would just concentrate on this for a while, easier commission I assume, while leaving the other segments of the sales in the back burner. Those other segments can also mean more profit for the company in the long run since they mean bringing more fresh blood into the system. Lastly, implementing any kind of overlay will cost them money. A slow just  just means costs and little to no new revenue and I do not see how this is a good thing.
> 
> Of course the sales people want everything to go through them. Is it in the interest of the shareholders though? I believe not.



Very valid points...if you assume an enrollment fee is almost pure gross profit, but a $25K points purchase includes inventory cost of 30% and marketing/sales cost of 50%, the gross profit on the $25K is only 20% ($5000). So in that scenario, if a $1000 fee scenario enticed more than 5 people to join for every one that would join by a buy-in, it could make economic sense for them to do the fee.

Will be interesting to see what develops.

The OP's pitch of a deed surrender to get a 15% discount versus just a straight offer of 15%-off is a new one for MVC (at least the first time I can recall that approach being reported). It will be interesting to see if we see more of that.


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> If they go with such an approach it will take a very long time to get quality VSN inventory in the DC system. I also am not sure if this will generate sufficient revenue rapidly that Wall St. expect from the acquisition. But I am certain they will run the scenarios and go with the program that maximizes revenue.
> 
> We would not go for such a high priced offer to get a few more locations so we will simply use what we own with SOs. This slow approach will assure that the VSN inventory remains stable because there will be a large group of owners who will not enroll.
> 
> If they go with a low cost high volume enrollment approach similar to 2010 enrollment, then many more will participate (including ourselves).


I don’t even think his will happen in 2020. We may see some benefit such as interchangeable priority across brands through interval in the short term. But I’m with you. I’d enroll for a reasonable fee. The idea of spending tens of thousands of dollars for ownership is not on my short list

In other news. The MVC central sales office called me back with the “most amazing amazing bundle that I’m going to love”. I need to call them back, just too tired to play the cat and mouse game tonight lol.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 13, 2019)

CPNY said:


> The days of spending tens of thousands of dollars for ownership is not on my short list



My thoughts exactly. We are close to a saturation point with 3 timeshares thus we have no appetite for spending a lot of money on a few more locations; it's diminishing returns. Especially knowing what happens to resale values.


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> My thoughts exactly.


Especially when I picked up 3 mandatory platinum deeds in the last month. I’m doing ok with star options and maint fees, enough for me to go where I need. I actually may have a bit too much.


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## DannyTS (Aug 13, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Very valid points...if you assume an enrollment fee is almost pure gross profit, but a $25K points purchase includes inventory cost of 30% and marketing/sales cost of 50%, the gross profit on the $25K is only 20% ($5000). So in that scenario, if a $1000 fee scenario enticed more than 5 people to join for every one that would join by a buy-in, it could make economic sense for them to do the fee.
> 
> Will be interesting to see what develops.
> 
> The OP's pitch of a deed surrender to get a 15% discount versus just a straight offer of 15%-off is a new one for MVC (at least the first time I can recall that approach being reported). It will be interesting to see if we see more of that.


Let's do a poll among the Vistana owners to see how many would pay 1,000 vs 25,000. Of course they would have to know that they would not have the option to choose, just to see how many would find 25k reasonable.  My sense is that it would be a very small minority so maybe 1 would enroll through a sales pitch vs 50 online. So I believe that the ratio is much higher thank 5 to 1


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## JIMinNC (Aug 13, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> Let's do a poll among the Vistana owners to see how many would pay 1,000 vs 25,000. Of course they would have to know that they would not have the option to choose, just to see how many would find 25k reasonable.  My sense is that it would be a very small minority so maybe 1 would enroll through a sales pitch vs 50 online. So I believe that the ratio is much higher thank 5 to 1



Given the huge geographical overlap between MVC and VSE, my sense is MVC TUGgers would be similar, if not even less likely to pay up. Just remember we are not typical of the average owner. Nevertheless, the point is probably the same. A fee approach could indeed mean a relatively easy income boost for MVW. Another variable might be where the overall economy is when any new program is rolled out. If things are weaker than today, a fee approach might be even more likely.


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## pchung6 (Aug 13, 2019)

Deleted.


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## DannyTS (Aug 13, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Given the huge geographical overlap between MVC and VSE, my sense is MVC TUGgers would be similar, if not even less likely to pay up. Just remember we are not typical of the average owner. Nevertheless, the point is probably the same. A fee approach could indeed mean a relatively easy income boost for MVW. Another variable might be where the overall economy is when any new program is rolled out. If things are weaker than today, a fee approach might be even more likely.


now let's see if the MVC executives are as smart as the TUGgers


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> Let's do a poll among the Vistana owners to see how many would pay 1,000 vs 25,000. Of course they would have to know that they would not have the option to choose, just to see how many would find 25k reasonable.  My sense is that it would be a very small minority so maybe 1 would enroll through a sales pitch vs 50 online. So I believe that the ratio is much higher thank 5 to 1



BLast email to every owner or done through the call center when people call in for reservations (still many who call in believe it or not) Im sure many will pay the fee for the one time. How many owners are in the vistana side?


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## DannyTS (Aug 13, 2019)

CPNY said:


> BLast email to every owner or done through the call center when people call in for reservations (still many who call in believe it or not) I guarantee maybe will add the fee on for the one time. How many owners are in the vistana side?


250,000 Vistana and Hyatt owners


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## DannyTS (Aug 13, 2019)

CPNY said:


> BLast email to every owner or done through the call center when people call in for reservations (still many who call in believe it or not) Im sure many will pay the fee for the one time. How many owners are in the vistana side?


Step 1, by email
Step 2 mail if necessary
Step 3 call center (not necessary and not the most cost effective IMO).


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> 250,000 Vistana and Hyatt owners


That’s it? Why did i think there were more. Then the fee would have to be substantial. What’s a decent fee? 5,000? If 100,000 enrolled that’s still 500M in revenue just from enrollment. Then factor in all of the additional “buy more point” owner updates you now have access to in the future.

Geez, they may just charge everyone for this overlay and not just vistana/Hyatt owners and make even more money! 

I’d possibly enroll at 5,000 if I wasn’t ending up with low points after a conversion, and only if I still keep what I have in the VSN. That includes the inventory pool I’m getting now.


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## DannyTS (Aug 13, 2019)

CPNY said:


> That’s it? Why did i think there were more. Then the fee would have to be substantial. What’s a decent fee? 5,000? If 100,000 enrolled that’s still 500M in revenue just from enrollment.
> 
> I’d possibly enroll at 5,000 if I wasn’t ending up with low points after a conversion, and only if I still keep what I have in the VSN. That includes the inventory pool I’m getting now.


why do you think that a fee of $1000 for MVC doing virtually nothing and getting 100 million dollars with no costs is not enough? MVW has net earnings of about 200 million dollars so this would increase them by 50%

As far i am concerned I am not paying them 5,000. If they are greedy, so be it, I am happy with what I own and I do not need any enrollment. As for others, the gain for us would be just marginal in terms of locations. Also, you factor in the skim that we do not have in VSN and it is just too much, it is not worth it. We are already paying 5k a year in MF, all to Vistana.


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

I wonder the priority window in interval will be rolled out at some point for cross booking.


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> why do you think that a fee of $1000 for MVC doing virtually nothing and getting 100 million dollars with no costs is not enough? MVW has net earnings of about 200 million dollars so this would increase them by 50%


I wasn’t referring to the fee, I was referring to the amount of customers (250K) I thought it may have been higher. I think 1,000 is enough! And probably more on point or maybe closer to 2500. Either way, you’re correct, it’s revenue for doing virtually nothing. I’d still pay 2,500 enrollment. Maybe make it tiered, if you have one ownership start at 1000, enroll 2 it’s 2000 enroll. 3+ it’s a max of 3,000. Either way, it could work out to 2-3 years of revenue just for enrollment. So I’m in agreement with you


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## DannyTS (Aug 13, 2019)

CPNY said:


> I wasn’t referring to the fee, I was referring to the amount of customers (250K) I thought it may have been higher. I think 1,000 is enough! And probably more on point or maybe closer to 2500. Either way, you’re correct, it’s revenue for doing virtually nothing. I’d still pay 2,500 enrollment. Maybe make it tiered, if you have one ownership start at 1000, enroll 2 it’s 2000 enroll. 3+ it’s a max of 3,000. Either way, it could work out to 2-3 years of revenue just for enrollment. So I’m in agreement with you


let's not give them ideas. How about $50 for one  $55 for 2 and $59.95 for 3+?


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> let's not give them ideas. How about $50 for one  $55 for 2 and $59.95 for 3+?


Ya know what, I don’t know what I was thinking. NO ONE would pay anything over 59.95 enrollment. I agree. I had a lapse in judgment at the moment. I agree start at 50 up to 59.95. 

DO YOU SEE THAT MVC?! NO ONE WILL PAY MORE THAN $59.95!

Glad we cleared that up haha


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 13, 2019)

CPNY said:


> Ya know what, I don’t know what I was thinking. NO ONE would pay anything over 59.95 enrollment. I agree. I had a lapse in judgment at the moment. I agree start at 50 up to 59.95.
> 
> DO YOU SEE THAT MVC?! NO ONE WILL PAY MORE THAN $59.95!
> 
> Glad we cleared that up haha



Considering they have a long history of knowing what people will pay, I doubt they consider what we think. I know you are kidding of course, just being being a counter balance. You guys may think owners won't pay much to enroll, and maybe Tug owners will not. But MVCI already knows what people will pay for what. It's not new for them. The averages will likely hold.


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## kds4 (Aug 13, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> I thought you saw that secret documentation when you made the DC purchase?



You may want to reread what I said in the thread you refer to.

As I've stated numerous times, the documents we were given to review in our last MVC meeting had nothing to do with the SPG acquisition. We read about some upcoming benefit changes that would impact MVC owners (not SPG owners). I do find it interesting that the OP's presentation included detailed statements that were consistent with the general statements we heard regarding the SPG acquisition. It will be interesting to see how accurate it turns out to be when official announcements are made.

I'm also going to politely request that we move on from this recurring theme that a couple of SPG owners/posters continue trying to 'stir the pot' with and stop misrepresenting/misquoting statements from posters in the Marriott forum. It's counterproductive to why these forums exist, which is to exchange information (whether you happen to agree with the information presented or not). I'm only guessing here, but I suspect that SPG owners/posters wouldn't appreciate it if a Marriott owner were engaging in this type of activity on their forum.


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## pchung6 (Aug 13, 2019)

kds4 said:


> You may want to reread what I said in the thread you refer to.
> 
> As I've stated numerous times, the documents we were given to review in our last MVC meeting had nothing to do with the SPG acquisition. We read about some upcoming benefit changes that would impact MVC owners (not SPG owners). I do find it interesting that the OP's presentation included detailed statements that were consistent with the general statements we heard regarding the SPG acquisition. It will be interesting to see how accurate it turns out to be when official announcements are made.



I deleted my posts above. I just found it is funny that the OP and you discussed about the documentation. I didn't mean to bring this topic up again.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 13, 2019)

I am happy either way.

1) Having access to DC and points rentals would be nice at a low cost. However mass enrollment would negatively effect inventory in the VSN system.

2) Alternatively, if MVC asks people to pay tens of thousands for MVC access, then that will preserve the SVN inventory because few will sign up. I am okay with that too. Long live VSN SOs!

I believe MVC will opt for the latter scenario. In scenario #1, what would the sales people do?


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## DannyTS (Aug 13, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I am happy either way.
> 
> 1) Having access to DC and points rentals would be nice at a low cost. However mass enrollment would negatively effect inventory in the VSN system.
> 
> ...


I really like your approach and I agree, we probably win both ways. I know that many Vistana owners root for #1 because they like what they own. Scenario #2 is probably the one preferred by the sales people. At the same time, their sales have been pretty good over the years without this so I am not sure why the company would put too much weight on it. To me this is just the lazy approach.  A successful combined program would be a tremendous sales tool and we should not discount what impact this would have on their sales potential.


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## pchung6 (Aug 13, 2019)

This afternoon, someone from Vistana just called and offered to retro all of my resale weeks. I don’t remember how many Flex he offered, but it was about $30k. He insisted that I need to retro all of my 4 Vistana weeks so I can participate the upcoming program with Marriott and Hyatt. Well I could see his lip moving over the phone. When I asked for details and documentation, he danced around and said “I guarantee you the access to Aruba and Key West” if you buy today. I was at work and had to make a conference call, so i hanged up and asked for call back tonight.

Here is the voicemail transcript he left on my phone before I called back.
“Hello _⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_ name is xxxxx I'm calling from _⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_ _⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_ _⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_ is a courtesy call from the operation center about your a resale ownership weeks that you have um we have a recently expanded our points opportunities through the mergers with Marriott and we are offering the new program to allow resell _⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_⁠_ to join our points network the call back number is 407-903-xxxx this offer is only valid during the month of August so if you have questions or interest get back with us right away thank you…”


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I am happy either way.
> 
> 1) Having access to DC and points rentals would be nice at a low cost. However mass enrollment would negatively effect inventory in the VSN system.
> 
> ...


I’m with you. I would actually love some priority in interval for exchanging first, see how that rolls out. Although they may hinder cross sales. If I’m able to get into MVC resorts using interval why buy into the DC program? But that would still be a nice perk to have. I hope thy go with option 2 in your scenarios. 

I don’t follow, Can you explain how it would negatively affect inventory in the VSN system in option 1?


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 13, 2019)

@CPNY In a mass enrollment, many owners sign up for the DC overlay program so it would place more VSN inventory in the DC exchange pool when owners opt to trade with MVC which is separate from the VSN only SO inventory.


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## kds4 (Aug 13, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> I deleted my posts above. I just found it is funny that the OP and you discussed about the documentation. I didn't mean to bring this topic up again.



No problem. I just want to try and keep things moving in a positive direction. I appreciate your inputs in support of that.


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## kds4 (Aug 13, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I am happy either way.
> 
> 1) Having access to DC and points rentals would be nice at a low cost. However mass enrollment would negatively effect inventory in the VSN system.
> 
> ...



I think that may have been what Jim and some others were musing about. Every coin has 2 sides and for MVC meeting their stockholders expectations may require coming up with a way to make it stand on end (to produce enough SPG participation to create MVC accessible inventory to promote sales while not making the cost of 'enrolling' that SPG inventory too low and fail to maximize profit in this area by mass enrolling SPG ownerhips and creating potential inventory competition on both sides of the field for both sets of owners - which was one of the MVC legacy weeks owners concerns when the Destination Points program was introduced in 2010).

It's going to be really interesting to see what they come up with, unless I figure it out first (which so far, I cannot make my quarter stand on its edge)...


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## JIMinNC (Aug 13, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @CPNY In a mass enrollment, many owners sign up for the DC overlay program so it would place more VSN inventory in the DC exchange pool when owners opt to trade with MVC which is separate from the VSN only SO inventory.



Except if those owners opt to play in the MVC world it will take both the VSN week and the VSN owner out of the VSN system. So, while there will be fewer weeks in VSN, there will also be fewer owners competing for those weeks. Same thing happened in the MVC system when they created the DC. Weeks that are elected for points come out of the legacy weeks system, but so does the owner competing for reservations. Unless participation was so massive that certain inventory became completely or almost unavailable in VSN, the VSN system should still function.


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @CPNY In a mass enrollment, many owners sign up for the DC overlay program so it would place more VSN inventory in the DC exchange pool when owners opt to trade with MVC which is separate from the VSN only SO inventory.



From what I’ve learned here in the short amount of time I’ve been here is, if something like that happened, yes, inventory would leave the VSN pool but then there would also be one less owner booking inventory in the VSN pool. Wouldn’t it be a wash?
thank you for explaining it. 

Still trying to understand trusts, and who controls the inventory etc.


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Except if those owners opt to play in the MVC world it will take both the VSN week and the VSN owner out of the VSN system. So, while there will be fewer weeks in VSN, there will also be fewer owners competing for those weeks. Same thing happened in the MVC system when they created the DC. Weeks that are elected for points come out of the legacy weeks system, but so does the owner competing for reservations. Unless participation was so massive that certain inventory became completely or almost unavailable in VSN, the VSN system should still function.


I would think the owners of undesirable resorts would want to book MVC. I would think most Westin owners would keep what they own for the most part.

I would bet a ton of SVV and other voluntary resort owners would be traveling the MVC catalog of resorts each year


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

kds4 said:


> I think that may have been what Jim and some others were musing about. Every coin has 2 sides and for MVC meeting their stockholders expectations may require coming up with a way to make it stand on end (to produce enough SPG participation to create MVC accessible inventory to promote sales while not making the cost of 'enrolling' that SPG inventory too low and fail to maximize profit in this area by mass enrolling SPG ownerhips and creating potential inventory competition on both sides of the field for both sets of owners - which was one of the MVC legacy weeks owners concerns when the Destination Points program was introduced in 2010).
> 
> It's going to be really interesting to see what they come up with, unless I figure it out first (which so far, I cannot make my quarter stand on its edge)...



Just put some glue on the table, that should help the quarter stand up. Haha. 

I think they would start small and easy, maybe open up cross priority for VSN, HRC, and MVC resorts in interval for exchange in the short term. They can run it as a test to see how much it is utilized or just start there while they are working out a synergistic program.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 13, 2019)

CPNY said:


> I would think the owners of undesirable resorts would want to book MVC. I would think most Westin owners would keep what they own for the most part.
> 
> I would bet a ton of SVV and other voluntary resort owners would be traveling the MVC catalog of resorts each year



Except I would expect the SVVs of the world would get a smaller point allocation than the Westins. They would probably give the Westins a much higher point allocation to tempt those owners to play in MVC. That's one way they get Hawaii weeks deposited to the DC Exchange - give their owners a boatload of Points to work with.


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## kds4 (Aug 13, 2019)

CPNY said:


> Just put some glue on the table, that should help the quarter stand up. Haha.
> 
> I think they would start small and easy, maybe open up cross priority for VSN, HRC, and MVC resorts in interval for exchange in the short term. They can run it as a test to see how much it is utilized or just start there while they are working out a synergistic program.



No disagreement w/starting small. A pilot approach (of some sort) would give them a way to establish a baseline (if they feel they need one). I think I figured out how to get my quarter to stand up. The answer was to spin it. See? All roads lead back to sales.


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Except I would expect the SVVs of the world would get a smaller point allocation than the Westins. They would probably give the Westins a much higher point allocation to tempt those owners to play in MVC. That's one way they get Hawaii weeks deposited to the DC Exchange - give their owners a boatload of Points to work with.


They no doubt would, unless they base it right off the star options chart. Or they could always re work the whole star option chart over and re set the valuations there too. Might be too much of an overhaul to do something like that. I was going to sell one of my deeds but I may keep it to see how it works out in the next year or two.


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

kds4 said:


> No disagreement w/starting small. A pilot approach (of some sort) would give them a way to establish a baseline (if they feel they need one). I think I figured out how to get my quarter to stand up. The answer was to spin it. See? All roads lead back to sales.


HAHAHA. cracking me up. The spin is always the way to go! Spin it fast and you can tell people it’s a nickel


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## JIMinNC (Aug 13, 2019)

CPNY said:


> They no doubt would, unless they base it right off the star options chart. Or they could always re work the whole star option chart over and re set the valuations there too. Might be too much of an overhaul to do something like that. I was going to sell one of my deeds but I may keep it to see how it works out in the next year or two.



I would think Westin owners might find the following MVC properties of interest, and if they got enough value for playing in the MVC pool, they could be enticed:

KoOlina on Oahu
Waiohai in Poipu
Kauai Lagoons
Waikoloa Ocean Club
Aruba Ocean Club
Aruba Surf Club
Crystal Shores on Marco Island, FL
Grande Ocean, Barony, and Surfwatch on Hilton Head Island
Grande Chateau, Las Vegas

Those are all high-quality properties in places Westin has no presence that Westin owners would likely feel very comfortable at.

The VSE properties that could be used to entice MVC Owners would include:

Westin Los Cabos
Westin Lagunamar
Westin St. John
Harbourside at Atlantis

The Hyatt properties have a lot to offer both MVC and VSN owners, but I still don't think we'll see them play in any way except maybe through II:

Key West - Beach House, Sunset Harbor, and Windward Pointe
Sedona - Pinion Pointe
Carmel - Highlands Inn
Bonita Springs, FL - Coconut Plantation
Puerto Rico - Hacienda del Mar
Sarasota, FL - Siesta Key


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## SeaDoc (Aug 13, 2019)

teddyo333 said:


> He just stated that it was coming in 2020 and he could not supply us with any documentation. He gave the impression that the documentation was coming but he could not make it a guarantee in order for is to sign the contract. We are in no hurry. I would rather wait until something is officially announced by Marriott.



You’ll be waiting years!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CPNY (Aug 13, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I would think Westin owners might find the following MVC properties of interest, and if they got enough value for playing in the MVC pool, they could be enticed:
> 
> KoOlina on Oahu
> Waiohai in Poipu
> ...


Great assessment, although I disagree on the harborside resort at Atlantis. It’s not all it’s cracked up to be. I’d rather convert to bonvoy and stay at the cove. It’s decent but I think most MVC owners won’t find it up to their standards In accommodations. Aside from the access to the Atlantis, it’s just ok. I can bet MVC owners would run back to Aruba. Westin St. John is nice too but y’all have MVC ST Thomas which is just as nice and you don’t have to take a boat to get there. 

I agree on the Westin front. We know most Westin owners love Hawaii since most of the Westin’s are on the west coast anyway. They would probably want more Hawaii options.  

The beauty of owning SVV, EVERYWHERE pretty much appeals to me


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## davidvel (Aug 14, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I would think Westin owners might find the following MVC properties of interest, and if they got enough value for playing in the MVC pool, they could be enticed:
> 
> KoOlina on Oahu
> Waiohai in Poipu
> ...


I had asked earlier for a comparison between the various systems.  Thanks for this post.

I don't know much about these resorts other than the Marriotts, but 4 Hawaii Marriotts as compared to Mexico, USVI and Bahamas seems like an unfair trade. Same with most of the Hyatts listed.


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## pchung6 (Aug 14, 2019)

davidvel said:


> I don't know much about these resorts other than the Marriotts, but 4 Hawaii Marriotts as compared to Mexico, USVI and Bahamas seems like an unfair trade. Same with most of the Hyatts listed.



I own Ko Olina, but I would rate Westin St John higher than any of the Marriott Hawaii resorts. At least you cannot get WSJ via II, but you can get any Marriott Hawaii from II. Also Sheraton Kauai is just next door to Waiohai and it’s newer, I would not agree Marriott has advantage in Kauai. But I agree, it may not be fair to compare other Westin in Mexico to Hawaii. However in reality, unfortunately, Westin Mexico or Westin Desert has the same valuation as Hawaii in SOs chart


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2019)

davidvel said:


> I had asked earlier for a comparison between the various systems.  Thanks for this post.
> 
> I don't know much about these resorts other than the Marriotts, but 4 Hawaii Marriotts as compared to Mexico, USVI and Bahamas seems like an unfair trade. Same with most of the Hyatts listed.



That may be In your opinion but half the country is closer to the Caribbean than Hawaii. They may have no desire for 8 resorts in Hawaii between MVC and Westin. The only comparison you can do Is location, for the most part. Everyone has different tastes and desires in a resort. Someone who loves fishing may see zero value in the best resort in Arizona.


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> I own Ko Olina, but I would rate Westin St John higher than any of the Marriott Hawaii resorts. At least you cannot get WSJ via II, but you can get any Marriott Hawaii from II. Also Sheraton Kauai is just next door to Waiohai and it’s newer, I would not agree Marriott has advantage in Kauai. But I agree, it may not be fair to compare other Westin in Mexico to Hawaii. However in reality, unfortunately, Westin Mexico or Westin Desert has the same valuation as Hawaii in SOs chart


Which is why I’m happy with my SVV platinum SO valuations. I’d expect them to fetch low DC values which is why I’d have to really evaluate how much usage I’d get in a joint program. Added Priority within II May benefit some more


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## JIMinNC (Aug 14, 2019)

davidvel said:


> I had asked earlier for a comparison between the various systems.  Thanks for this post.
> 
> I don't know much about these resorts other than the Marriotts, but 4 Hawaii Marriotts as compared to Mexico, USVI and Bahamas seems like an unfair trade. Same with most of the Hyatts listed.



Just a reminder that there are quite a few other Westins and Hyatts (and Sheratons, too), I only listed the ones that to me seemed to offer the most value to MVC owners.


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## SteelerGal (Aug 14, 2019)

However Hawaii has Intl markets.  Similarly to Vegas.  As well as the Deserts.  Ppl love these areas.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 14, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> Also Sheraton Kauai is just next door to Waiohai and it’s newer, I would not agree Marriott has advantage in Kauai.



Don't forget to factor in that Waiohai has Ocean View options and even the Island View units are very close to the beach, whereas the Sheraton timeshares are all Garden View and require a walk across a road and through the hotel property to get to the beach. Yes, the Sheraton is newer, but MVC does a very good job maintaining Waiohai. We were just there in February and it is a beautiful resort. We made the offer on our EOY resale while we were on the Big Island a couple weeks later. I suspect many will find it preferable to the set-up at the Sheraton.

Marriott also has Kauai Lagoons and Kauai Beach Club in the Kalapaki Beach area in Lihue, so I do think Westin owners will find that Marriott brings them value on Kauai.


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## pchung6 (Aug 14, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Don't forget to factor in that Waiohai has Ocean View options and even the Island View units are very close to the beach, whereas the Sheraton timeshares are all Garden View and require a walk across a road and through the hotel property to get to the beach. Yes, the Sheraton is newer, but MVC does a very good job maintaining Waiohai. We were just there in February and it is a beautiful resort.



Ya, I was at Waiohai last year. Are you talking about OV in Waiohai? Maybe 3 units have REAL OV I believe. I stayed at OV, but it was really just resort view and Island View probably can see more ocean than OV. Waiohai is very nice and just older. Sheraton is just newer and at least the pool is OF. I don’t see any difference in view between the two, perhaps you stayed at the real OV in Waiohai. I heard Lagoon is nice but I never been there. For KBC, I think I’ll pass if I have these other choices. Don’t forget Westin Princeville offers the true Westin experience, just the location may not be ideal for some.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 14, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> Ya, I was at Waiohai last year. Are you talking about OV in Waiohai? Maybe 3 units have REAL OV I believe. I stayed at OV, but it was really just resort view and Island View probably can see more ocean than OV. Waiohai is very nice and just older. Sheraton is just newer and at least the pool is OF. I don’t see any difference in view between the two, perhaps you stayed at the real OV in Waiohai. I heard Lagoon is nice but I never been there. For KBC, I think I’ll pass if I have these other choices. Don’t forget Westin Princeville offers the true Westin experience, just the location may not be ideal for some.



There are only a few OV at Waiohai that would qualify as Ocean Front, but many that are ocean view - just some ocean views aren’t stellar. The best OV units go to multi week owners and other owners are next in line.

We stayed in an Island View and that’s also what we bought when we came home. We liked our view in Feb. Would be happy with the same in the future.





Princeville where the Westin is has never appealed to us. Too cloudy and rainy in the winter.


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## Dean (Aug 14, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I would be quite surprised if, this far out from program announcement, local sales reps have been informed of any actual conversion values of VSE weeks into the hypothetical new program. Since the OP's weeks are pretty much in places where MVC also has resorts, my suspicion is the sales rep was just using the current values in the MVC system for similar resorts and estimating the potential value of the OP's ownership. That's my guess, at least.


I'm getting some pretty good  information that suggests the upper level sales team has already had some training on some new introductions but time will tell.


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## DannyTS (Aug 14, 2019)

(the second picture and the fourth are actual views  from the balcony)




davidvel said:


> I had asked earlier for a comparison between the various systems.  Thanks for this post.
> 
> I don't know much about these resorts other than the Marriotts, but 4 Hawaii Marriotts as compared to Mexico, USVI and Bahamas seems like an unfair trade. Same with most of the Hyatts listed.


I have met many Westin Hawaii owners that prefer to go to Westin Lagunamar on a  regular basis rather than to their home resorts and the exchange is 1:1 in the platinum season.  I also met Marriott owners that loved Lagunamar. Hard not to like it actually. You may not find it fair but those that have visited the resort do.

I think it is also an East vs West coast matter. People on the East cost may find it hard to get to Hawaii on a regular basis. As a matter of fact, visiting  Europe is much easier with direct flights to many big cities. So for them, travelling to Westin St John's, Westin Lagunamar or Harborside Bahamas may be an excellent option.


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## dansimms (Aug 14, 2019)

It will be interesting when an addition is made in any of these systems.  They would be fully owned by the land trust and could be up for reservation grabs by all programs if you are in a high enough tier.


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## kds4 (Aug 14, 2019)

CPNY said:


> Great assessment, although I disagree on the harborside resort at Atlantis. It’s not all it’s cracked up to be. I’d rather convert to bonvoy and stay at the cove. It’s decent but I think most MVC owners won’t find it up to their standards In accommodations. Aside from the access to the Atlantis, it’s just ok. I can bet MVC owners would run back to Aruba. Westin St. John is nice too but y’all have MVC ST Thomas which is just as nice and you don’t have to take a boat to get there.
> 
> I agree on the Westin front. We know most Westin owners love Hawaii since most of the Westin’s are on the west coast anyway. They would probably want more Hawaii options.
> 
> The beauty of owning SVV, EVERYWHERE pretty much appeals to me



But w/using hotel points to stay at the Cove, I thought all of the rooms were just hotel rooms with no kitchen/condo amenities. Even if it was a nicer 'room', I would take a step down to have the full kitchen/condo space (to not have to eat out all the time and be able to spread out).


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2019)

kds4 said:


> But w/using hotel points to stay at the Cove, I thought all of the rooms were just hotel rooms with no kitchen/condo amenities. Even if it was a nicer 'room', I would take a step down to have the full kitchen/condo space (to not have to eat out all the time and be able to spread out).


It’s more of a stumble down than a step. Don’t get me wrong. I love the Atlantis and the rooms are very nice. I’d see if you can book the reef with bonvoy. If you can I’d say go for that. Just not sure if you can book the reef through Marriott bonvoy. But there you can have it all. According to a few MVC owners here who have said it and believe it or not, MVC central sales “Marriott vacation club owners are Marriott snobs” (meant in a good way). I just don’t know how much you want to get on shuttles and be transported around a mega resort. Personally I love it. I get the room and building I want every time I go. It pays to know people lol


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> View attachment 13409
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Couldn’t agree more. Lagunamar is a great resort from what I hear. To say it’s not an even trade is false. I honestly don’t know what they would offer in the Caribbean that’s better (not counting Ritz Carlton). St Thomas/st John the same. Bahamas/Aruba the same.


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## davidvel (Aug 14, 2019)

Never meant to create an Apple vs. PC debate, but glad to see the comparison comments.


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2019)

Dean said:


> I'm getting some pretty good  information that suggests the upper level sales team has already had some training on some new introductions but time will tell.


New introductions could be a small step easy exchange in the meantime until a full integration down the line. Let’s be honest, I think they have just been assessing their new acquisition for the past year. From technology, to employees, to operations. As owners we want to think they went guns blazing on a joint DC program from day 1. While they prob had some Ideas in mind, most of the past year has been getting to know and see how they can maximize the new business they bought.


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2019)

davidvel said:


> Never meant to create an Apple vs. PC debate, but glad to see the comparison comments.


I don’t think you’re getting anyone defending their favorites to the death. Lol. My favorite is Harborside at Atlantis and completely for the Atlantis affiliation. The TS resort isn’t anything to write home about. But everyone has different tastes. I really can’t comment on many MVC because I’ve only
Stayed at a handful. MVC Owners will say they are the best. Westin owners will say it’s the best. 

For me, adding 100 of the best Hawaii destinations does nothing for me. As someone said earlier, I can hop a direct flight cheap and galavant through Europe. I’ll be doing it 3 times next year actually. So I value Caribbean resorts. That’s what works for me. Someone in California May not give a rats patooti about the Caribbean and can’t wait for more Hawaii islands. Everyone’s preference is different. The best thing about this acquisition is the variety MVC now holds. Different buy in levels to appeal to all


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## SeaDoc (Aug 14, 2019)

CPNY said:


> I don’t think you’re getting anyone defending their favorites to the death. Lol. My favorite is Harborside at Atlantis and completely for the Atlantis affiliation. The TS resort isn’t anything to write home about. But everyone has different tastes. I really can’t comment on many MVC because I’ve only
> Stayed at a handful. MVC Owners will say they are the best. Westin owners will say it’s the best.
> 
> For me, adding 100 of the best Hawaii destinations does nothing for me. As someone said earlier, I can hop a direct flight cheap and galavant through Europe. I’ll be doing it 3 times next year actually. So I value Caribbean resorts. That’s what works for me. Someone in California May not give a rats patooti about the Caribbean and can’t wait for more Hawaii islands. Everyone’s preference is different. The best thing about this acquisition is the variety MVC now holds. Different buy in levels to appeal to all



I love your optimism that somehow these different products will all be packaged as one.  I don’t buy it.  I own in both and have no desire to see them ‘merge’.  I believe, given the ownership provisions, it will be a legal quagmire for the parties to agree on such a plan.  Everything said here has been salesmen conjecture, no facts, just wishful thinking.  I love both Vistana and Mvwc and prefer they remain independent.  Use II if you want to trade.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2019)

SeaDoc said:


> I love your optimism that somehow these different products will all be packaged as one.  I don’t buy it.  I own in both and have no desire to see them ‘merge’.  I believe, given the ownership provisions, it will be a legal quagmire for the parties to agree on such a plan.  Everything said here has been salesmen conjecture, no facts, just wishful thinking.  I love both Vistana and Mvwc and prefer they remain independent.  Use II if you want to trade.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh believe me, I’m in the same position as you. I’d rather them stay separate. If anything was to happen, I’d like to see the interval exchange priority merge. That would be easier, especially for star option owners, we have the benefit of star option booking. Using the interval exchange priority would be easier and seamless. I have maintained that II exchange  would come first before anything else and that’s IF anything else came down the pike. 

My optimism on these products being packaged as one is based off what everyone here thinks. I’ve actually never thought that would happen in the short term.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 14, 2019)

SeaDoc said:


> I love your optimism that somehow these different products will all be packaged as one.  I don’t buy it.  I own in both and have no desire to see them ‘merge’.  I believe, given the ownership provisions, it will be a legal quagmire for the parties to agree on such a plan.  Everything said here has been salesmen conjecture, no facts, just wishful thinking.  I love both Vistana and Mvwc and prefer they remain independent.  Use II if you want to trade.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



While it's true that this thread is based on sales conjecture, we do know that something is coming in the way of an integrated product. Steve Weisz said this during the most recent quarterly earnings call early this month:

*"We also continued our work on enhancing our product offerings across our multiple Marriott brands. As we shared with you previously, we continue to evaluate the various options, and our current plan is to add new enhancements in stages, each building on the strong foundation that we offer customers today. Over time, our goal is to develop an integrated product that leverages all of our Marriott family of brands, providing owners and potential owners an even greater array of vacation destinations and experiences from which to choose. We remain extremely optimistic about its potential, and we’ll have more to say about this in our Investor Day on October 4.”*

In the previous quarterly call in May, he indicated that changes and some form of integration would be coming for 2020.

I don't think anyone here has been suggesting that the programs are all going to legally merge into one single program. I think that actually could be a legal quagmire as you suggest. What we are talking about, and what we have interpreted Steve Weisz to be talking about, is some sort of exchange program between the brands. MVC Sales seems to be surmising that that exchange will be the DC, some have suggested the first step might be somehow II-based, others have speculated it could be something totally new. Only time will reveal the details, but maybe we'll know a little more after the October 4 Investor Day.


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> While it's true that this thread is based on sales conjecture, we do know that something is coming in the way of an integrated product. Steve Weisz said this during the most recent quarterly earnings call early this month:
> 
> *"We also continued our work on enhancing our product offerings across our multiple Marriott brands. As we shared with you previously, we continue to evaluate the various options, and our current plan is to add new enhancements in stages, each building on the strong foundation that we offer customers today. Over time, our goal is to develop an integrated product that leverages all of our Marriott family of brands, providing owners and potential owners an even greater array of vacation destinations and experiences from which to choose. We remain extremely optimistic about its potential, and we’ll have more to say about this in our Investor Day on October 4.”*
> 
> ...


I wonder if resale deed recording would have to be done by October 4th with any small announcement coming. Was the DC program a big announcement?  For DC enrollment The deeds had to be recorded prior to the announcement date correct? I wonder if this “leak” or slight information coming on investor day would count as an announcement.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 14, 2019)

While this is a very strong statement, I have seen executives use the term "integrated" loosely to mean many things. One possibility is that each sales office could cross sell the other system's portfolio's i.e. MVC sales can sell DC, Flex and HPP; Vistana can do the same as well as Hyatt.

This plus II priority if you own two or more systems would have been the simplest and fastest form of "integration." The fact that it has been a year and this simple cross-selling of each portfolio has not happened, leads me to believe that something deeper is happening.


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> While this is a very strong statement. I have seen executives use the term "integrated" loosely to mean many things. One possibility is that each sales office could cross sell the other system's portfolio's i.e. MVC sales can sell DC, Flex and HPP; Vistana can do the same as well as Hyatt.
> 
> This plus II priority would have been the simplest and fastest form of "integration." The fact that it has been a year and this simple cross-selling of each portfolio has not happened, leads me to believe that something deeper is happening.


A year isn’t a very long time. They were in “assessment” mode. You can’t just jump into something the day after the acquisition. It takes time gather facts, assess their current situations then come back and formulate a plan. I actually think the fact that they are talking “integration” after a year tells me something simpler is coming. I’ve been betting for a while it’s going to be II exchange priority to start, even though I was met with pushback from the DC crowd. I may be wrong but it’s just what I think will come first. This way it doesn’t leave post DC resale weeks out as well. I guess we will see how customer centric MVC really is.

I was at a vistana resort in May. MVC folks were visiting (I know the employees, I had the info). They were their scouting operations, resort conditions, and Atlantis etc. they were from MVC not Marriott hotel group. So they are still figuring out their products


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 14, 2019)

CPNY said:


> A year isn’t a very long time. They were in “assessment” mode. You can’t just jump into something the day after the acquisition. It takes time gather facts, assess their current situations then come back and formulate a plan. I actually think the fact that they are talking “integration” after a year tells me something simpler is coming. I’ve been betting for a while it’s going to be II exchange priority to start, even though I was met with pushback from the DC crowd. I may be wrong but it’s just what I think will come first. This way it doesn’t leave post DC resale weeks out as well. I guess we will see how customer centric MVC really is.
> 
> I was at a vistana resort in May. MVC folks were visiting (I know the employees, I had the info). They were their scouting operations, resort conditions, and Atlantis etc. they were from MVC not Marriott hotel group. So they are still figuring out their products



I agree that it takes 9 months or more for traditional sales programs to roll out at large corporations, however I would expect that they would have done more assessment up-front and would apply more modern agile approaches. Perhaps this is my entrepreneurial, agile thinking but it would not have been hard to train a sales rep or two in a few key sales offices to offer the additional portfolios to start. They could expand from there based on what works/doesn't work.  This would jumpstart sales from the acquisition right away regardless of what they are doing long term. It also doesn't change anything policy-wise from what they are selling today except adding more sales feet to the mix. KISS


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I agree that it takes 9 months or more for traditional sales programs to roll out at large corporations, however I would expect that they would have done more assessment up-front and would apply more modern agile approaches. Perhaps this is my entrepreneurial, agile thinking but it would not have been hard to train a sales rep or two in a few key sales offices to offer the additional portfolios to start. They could expand from there based on what works/doesn't work.  This would jumpstart sales from the acquisition right away regardless of what they are doing long term.


While I agree, it would be nice and easy to just “go and sell”. But in the end it’s not that simple. They may want to keep the sales team separate for a bit. They may always keep them separate and in the future any “new developed” product could be a POS buy in from either site. Another theory I had said a while back. For example; You can buy flex as it is and DC points as it is currently and if you want to enroll your ownership in the “affiliate ambassador” club to have access to convert to AA points and book all brands it will cost you only XX dollars more. Or require a purchase amount of XX dollars.

Point is, there are so many ways they can go about this to increase sales revenue and be the true leader in vacation ownership. Many ways that will take plenty of time to work out, legally and effectively to maximize profits. So look for a more simple approach in the beginning, such as an interval exchange. Another theory I had a while back.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 14, 2019)

CPNY said:


> I wonder if resale deed recording would have to be done by October 4th with any small announcement coming. Was the DC program a big announcement?  For DC enrollment The deeds had to be recorded prior to the announcement date correct? I wonder if this “leak” or slight information coming on investor day would count as an announcement.



I wasn't an MVC owner or very active on TUG in 2010, so I don't know how that was disclosed, but at that time MVC was a very small part of the much-larger Marriott International, so I would suspect that any discussions with investors about the timeshare operation in the earnings calls would have been very high level at most. Now that MVW is independent and a 100% pure timeshare play, they talk about that business at a more detailed level than when it was part of MAR.

I would not expect the Investor Day info to be the kind of announcement that would trigger tigger dates and stuff like that. It will likely be the high-level, strategic directional stuff that dominates investor presentations. I wouldn't expect any cut-off or qualifying date to be set until very close to the operational roll-out announcement of whatever they do. But who really knows? Just speculatin' here.


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I wasn't an MVC owner or very active on TUG in 2010, so I don't know how that was disclosed, but at that time MVC was a very small part of the much-larger Marriott International, so I would suspect that any discussions with investors about the timeshare operation in the earnings calls would have been very high level at most. Now that MVW is independent and a 100% pure timeshare play, they talk about that business at a more detailed level than when it was part of MAR.
> 
> I would not expect the Investor Day info to be the kind of announcement that would trigger tigger dates and stuff like that. It will likely be the high-level, strategic directional stuff that dominates investor presentations. I wouldn't expect any cut-off or qualifying date to be set until very close to the operational roll-out announcement of whatever they do. But who really knows? Just speculatin' here.


Well you speak as if you’ve been around for a while so thank you for being knowledgeable. One deed was recorded 2.5 weeks after initiating closing. Just went into escrow yesterday for another and waiting on another to close. In case you’re wondering, yes I’m buying too many lol. But I promise, I’m done after this lol


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 14, 2019)

In the OPs example, they were Sheraton owners. MVC went to the expense to get them in a presentation but lost an opportunity to sell them more flex, upgrade etc because all they could sell them is MVC with some vague promises which didn't work.  If they had a peaked rep in the office that rep could have come in and offered them some flex options.  Same policy as today. This would have been no different than if they had walked into a Vistana presentation. Just leveraging the assets they already have.

The fact they haven't executed this simple solution tells me that they are either stuck in analysis paralysis, have sluggish bureaucratic management, or have something much bigger planned.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 14, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I agree that it takes 9 months or more for traditional sales programs to roll out at large corporations, however I would expect that they would have done more assessment up-front and would apply more modern agile approaches. Perhaps this is my entrepreneurial, agile thinking but it would not have been hard to train a sales rep or two in a few key sales offices to offer the additional portfolios to start. They could expand from there based on what works/doesn't work.  This would jumpstart sales from the acquisition right away regardless of what they are doing long term. It also doesn't change anything policy-wise from what they are selling today except adding more sales feet to the mix. KISS



I think it would be very hard to try to sell both products out of the same sales offices because the structures are so different. We know many sales reps get confused about the details of the single programs they each now sell. Unless that was the truly long-term strategy, with no integration ever planned, I think it would be a waste of time and resources to train every sales rep on both programs. How would they know what to sell to whom?


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> In the OPs example, they were Sheraton owners. MVC went to the expense to get them in a presentation but lost an opportunity to sell them more flex, upgrade etc because all they could sell them is MVC with some vague promises which didn't work.


 sell them on buying into the DC program. Many own both. If they were good at sales they would ask questions and figure out how to make them realize they NEED to be in the DC program NOW lol


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## JIMinNC (Aug 14, 2019)

CPNY said:


> sell them on buying into the DC program. Many own both. If they were good at sales they would ask questions and figure out how to make them realize they NEED to be in the DC program NOW lol



This part of the discussion is almost as intriguing to me as what kind of exchange program they might create for us - will they continue to try to sell both products or settle on one and train everyone to sell that one? They stopped selling Weeks when they built the DC; will they do the same here?

As @SeaDoc said, trying to truly combine the existing programs could be a quagmire, but I would think some bean counter at corporate has calculated the savings if they only had to maintain one training program, one set of sales documentation/materials, etc. I can't imagine they wouldn't want to do that if they can find a path to do so.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 14, 2019)

CPNY said:


> Well you speak as if you’ve been around for a while so thank you for being knowledgeable.



Been on TUG one way or another since a few months before we bought our first timeshare in 1998. I was more engaged on TUG early on, but then my activity faded a bit as our original ownership started not working as well for us. It eventually became part of the crappy Diamond system, so after we bought into MVC in July 2014, we sold our Diamond that fall. I started really engaging on TUG again in 2014 researching DC Points and bundle packages before we went to an Encore sales presentation in Hilton Head that July and became MVC owners. Now I spend waaay too much time here!


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 14, 2019)

CPNY said:


> sell them on buying into the DC program. Many own both. If they were good at sales they would ask questions and figure out how to make them realize they NEED to be in the DC program NOW lol



For us it didn't work because we wanted to leverage what we already owned. Offering Flex or other VSN programs would have provided alternatives but our rep was shut down with only MVC alternative. (Good for us, bad for MVC)


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 14, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I think it would be very hard to try to sell both products out of the same sales offices because the structures are so different. We know many sales reps get confused about the details of the single programs they each now sell. Unless that was the truly long-term strategy, with no integration ever planned, I think it would be a waste of time and resources to train every sales rep on both programs. How would they know what to sell to whom?



Not hard because you don't have to train the entire office. You need one trained specialist rep to come in to the sale similar to the closer, or you transfer a rep from the VSN office into the MVC office (cross-polinate) and they are brought in similar to a closer.  The specialist can train the new office on the program if they decide to roll out more broadly.

OTOH, Hyatt may be more problematic due to brand licensing issues.  Marriott may not like Hyatt in the MVC offices and vice versa.


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Now I spend waaay too much time here!


You and me both LOL


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## JIMinNC (Aug 14, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Not hard because you don't have to train the entire office. You need one trained specialist rep to come in to the sale similar to the closer, or you transfer a rep from the VSN office into the MVC office (cross-polinate) and they are brought in similar to a closer.  The specialist can train the new office on the program if they decide to roll out more broadly.
> 
> OTOH, Hyatt may be more problematic due to brand licensing issues.  Marriott may not like Hyatt in the MVC offices and vice versa.



True, if they felt there was sufficient potential to sell both programs in all locations, that would be a way to do it on a limited basis. Hopefully, the Investor Day on October 4 will provide a little more insight into their strategy, as promised, and we can focus our speculating a bit tighter...


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 14, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> True, if they felt there was sufficient potential to sell both programs in all locations, that would be a way to do it on a limited basis. Hopefully, the Investor Day on October 4 will provide a little more insight into their strategy, as promised, and we can focus our speculating a bit tighter...



If this is all they announce in October, it will be deeply disappointing. They could have executed this months ago.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 14, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I wasn't an MVC owner or very active on TUG in 2010, so I don't know how that was disclosed, but at that time MVC was a very small part of the much-larger Marriott International, so I would suspect that any discussions with investors about the timeshare operation in the earnings calls would have been very high level at most. Now that MVW is independent and a 100% pure timeshare play, they talk about that business at a more detailed level than when it was part of MAR.
> 
> I would not expect the Investor Day info to be the kind of announcement that would trigger tigger dates and stuff like that. It will likely be the high-level, strategic directional stuff that dominates investor presentations. I wouldn't expect any cut-off or qualifying date to be set until very close to the operational roll-out announcement of whatever they do. But who really knows? Just speculatin' here.



Prior to the 6/20/10 overnight announcement of the implementation of the MVW Destination Club points-based timeshare product, there were YEARS of rumors spurred by occasional targeted "surveys" from corporate, unsupported assertions made during sales presentations that in true TUG fashion were dismissed by many as gibberish intended to spur sales, and vague allusions to something in the pipeline during prior investor calls. NOTHING related, no branding or product or Weeks affiliation or legal documentation or ANYTHING was officially released until that after-midnight wholesale change. The announcement basically consisted of an email blast (that didn't hit every target,) and, a blurb on the owners' website with links to the contact information for purchasing DC Points, the legal documents, and, basic information about enrolling existing Weeks (eligibility, enrollment fees and DC Points allotment amounts for the Weeks in our individual accounts.) MVW didn't even offer a basic FAQ at the outset; that came later and appeared to be a Hail Mary pass because their phones were overloaded with calls from owners who had no idea what was going on. TUG was literally the only site online where information was being disseminated to the masses (and that was proven by a few people who tried to cash in by selling TUG's good info.)

This isn't meant to irritate the Vistana people who think Marriott people are too invested in the discussion of how Vistana might integrate under MVW's umbrella but, whether you (the collective) want to acknowledge it or not, it's not a stretch to say that the people on TUG who were involved in all that speculation were instrumental in gaining as quickly as possible all the information about how the DC works and how to best play the new game. Literally HUNDREDS of posts turned up overnight following MVW's announcement and the rate continued for months, and the TUG Marriott forum moderator, @Dave M , went above and beyond as a go-between using his contacts to try to flesh out every single detail we supposed. If you notice the Marriott Points FAQ on TUG wasn't posted until three years after the DC implementation, and it took every bit of that time for the hundreds whose contributions are contained therein to collect info and share their experiences of actually using the DC.

All that to say, it's not a surprise at all that whatever integration they're intending to introduce to Vistana/Hyatt owners hasn't yet been introduced in the relatively short time they've been under the MVW umbrella.

I'm still in the camp that says the easiest way for MVW to move forward is to keep the Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt set-ups as they are, under the umbrella but separate (with the possibility of existing trusts being combined as much as is legally feasible,) allowing existing ownerships to enroll in the DC Exchange Company subject to a one-time fee and annual Club Dues for access to "internal" exchanges among all brands under the MVW umbrella, as well as, allowing automatic enrollment with new direct purchases from each company.


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Not hard because you don't have to train the entire office. You need one trained specialist rep to come in to the sale similar to the closer, or you transfer a rep from the VSN office into the MVC office (cross-polinate) and they are brought in similar to a closer.  The specialist can train the new office on the program if they decide to roll out more broadly.
> 
> OTOH, Hyatt may be more problematic due to brand licensing issues.  Marriott may not like Hyatt in the MVC offices and vice versa.


I suspect they may sell both at each.  Unless of course they make access obtainable with a minimum “buy in” or only for certain owner levels. That’s how you’ll sell higher packages, or get people to add more to their existing ownership.


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## csalter2 (Aug 14, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Been on TUG one way or another since a few months before we bought our first timeshare in 1998. I was more engaged on TUG early on, but then my activity faded a bit as our original ownership started not working as well for us. It eventually became part of the crappy Diamond system, so after we bought into MVC in July 2014, we sold our Diamond that fall. I started really engaging on TUG again in 2014 researching DC Points and bundle packages before we went to an Encore sales presentation in Hilton Head that July and became MVC owners. Now I spend waaay too much time here!



Hey, you hit a soft spot! I am a Diamond owner.


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## davidvel (Aug 14, 2019)

SeaDoc said:


> I love your optimism that somehow these different products will all be packaged as one.  I don’t buy it.  I own in both and have no desire to see them ‘merge’.  I believe, given the ownership provisions, it will be a legal quagmire for the parties to agree on such a plan.  Everything said here has been salesmen conjecture, no facts, just wishful thinking.  I love both Vistana and Mvwc and prefer they remain independent.  Use II if you want to trade.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When you look at it, the D Club is just another exchange product, but using assigned points as the currency. I'm sure they'll figure how to get people to buy into a new hybrid club with more of their hard earned money. 

Seadoc, how much before the DC rollout did salespeople receive info, training etc.  What form was it in, and what constraints were placed on the release of the info?  I recall that a "date" was announced about big changes, and everyone on TUG went nuts speculating. Did people try to leak it?


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## CPNY (Aug 14, 2019)

davidvel said:


> When you look at it, the D Club is just another exchange product, but using assigned points as the currency. I'm sure they'll figure how to get people to buy into a new hybrid club with more of their hard earned money.
> 
> Seadoc, how much before the DC rollout did salespeople receive info, training etc.  What form was it in, and what constraints were placed on the release of the info?  I recall that a "date" was announced about big changes, and everyone on TUG went nuts speculating. Did people try to leak it?


I speculated that a while back. It could be a third program where DC Points and Star Options would convert to a new “currency” you have the be a certain level or “buy in” In a sense deposit or convert what you own to book. It could all be done through interval. Interesting how the interval guide that was mailed today is all about “using your points to exchange with interval: it’s easy!” A guide just for points based vacation owners on how to use the interval exchange. I bet a third program could be a nice sell. But who knows, I just hope priority exchange happens first and fast.


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## dansimms (Aug 14, 2019)

One option would be that you could come into another of these programs at the tier you have earned in the Marriott Vacation Club. Your ownership in each program would be combined so that you would have higher level perks in two or more programs


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 14, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> Prior to the 6/20/10 overnight announcement of the implementation of the MVW Destination Club points-based timeshare product, there were YEARS of rumors spurred by occasional targeted "surveys" from corporate, unsupported assertions made during sales presentations that in true TUG fashion were dismissed by many as gibberish intended to spur sales, and vague allusions to something in the pipeline during prior investor calls.



And the key thing to recall about that, was, for existing owners, nothing really changed unless they wanted more options by enrolling or buying into the new system. Everything they could do before, they still could.


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## DannyTS (Aug 14, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> And the key thing to recall about that, was, for existing owners, nothing really changed unless they wanted more options by enrolling or buying into the new system. Everything they could do before, they still could.


This time may be different though. Depending how they structure the overlay it may affect availability in the internal exchanges, especially at the most popular resorts and weeks so we may see winners and losers this time


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 14, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> This time may be different though. Depending how they structure the overlay it may affect availability in the internal exchanges, especially at the most popular resorts and weeks so we may see winners and losers this time



Anything can be different! When I say nothing changed, I mean the rules, your ownership worked the same way, you could do the same thing, etc. Availability is totally different issue. And, since anything is possible, you can speculate all you want. No one knows, no sense getting worked up over something that has not changed or been announced. I suppose it might be fun. But, I would hope no one is worrying that they lose some feature they currently have.


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## DannyTS (Aug 14, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> Anything can be different! When I say nothing changed, I mean the rules, your ownership worked the same way, you could do the same thing, etc. Availability is totally different issue. And, since anything is possible, you can speculate all you want. No one knows, no sense getting worked up over something that has not changed or been announced. I suppose it might be fun. But, I would hope no one is worrying that they lose some feature they currently have.


Steve, both the fear that we will lose something and the confidence that we will only have to gain are based on speculation so we are all in the same boat regardless of where one stands on this matter. 

Honestly I am more curious and I care less at this point. One way or another they will find a way to extract more money from us: a bit more annual fees (say a bit extra on top of the VSN fees), skim etc. If people trade less in Interval it will already be a huge gain for MVW. Most Tuggers  try to score big exchanges. It is not uncommon to have a cost of under 1000 (exchange fee, MF plus upgrade fee)  and get in return a week that is worth a multiple of that. If that II exchange does not happen and it is done instead under the DC umbrella, it is a huge win for Marriott if they can now rent the "leftovers"


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 14, 2019)

They do have to make back the purchase price of the acquisitions at a minimum, correct. Sure, I trade in II. But I go outside Marriott et al too. I doubt there will be massive II trading differences. In DC, those that elect for points do remove those weeks for weeks traders, however, they remove the owner as well, so, no trading is lost.


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## Lansdowne (Aug 17, 2019)

CPNY said:


> ... If they go with a low cost high volume enrollment approach similar to 2010 enrollment, then many more will participate (including ourselves).



We agree! Combining our 4 Westins and 3 Marriotts +pts should increase our status!  I hope they also go with the one fixed annual fee for II exchanges, points and banking.


P.S.  Gee, its has been that long since the DCP/VCP change?!


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## CPNY (Aug 17, 2019)

Lansdowne said:


> We agree! Combining our 4 Westins and 3 Marriotts +pts should increase our status!  I hope they also go with the one fixed annual fee for II exchanges, points and banking.
> 
> 
> P.S.  Gee, its has been that long since the DCP/VCP change?!


It’s only been a year since acquisition. It’s not that long at all.


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## Sicnarf (Aug 17, 2019)

I'm looking forward to this. I have 15 VSE units / 1 million+ SO's I'd like to enroll if the price is right


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## DeeCee (Aug 19, 2019)

Good morning. Very interesting thread. Although, I must admit the MVC DC points program buy in confuses me a bit. We purchased a legacy week almost 3 years ago. Resale but direct through Marriott. I think we could have done a little better with price on the resale market, but compared to direct DC points sales pitch we saved over $20,000. Of course, we understand that our week is not as flexible as the DC points system. We were also more comfortable with a quick and easy transaction, going directly through Marriott as we never did a private resale transaction. 

Forgive my naivety, I do have some questions.  

A little back story....I find Disney vacation club so much easier to understand. We own for 20 years now. I didn’t have a problem understanding it when we bought it, added on or how to use it (guidelines/banking/borrowing/cancellations, etc) all these years. 

We have an Marriott stay coming up on an Encore package with attendance at a presentation mandatory. The reps confuse me even more. So....questions, if you don’t mind:

1) is the “new” presentation going to look for us to trade in our week? What’s that mean, that our week is now gone forever and in lieu of it we have points?

2) if so, why would we trade in a week and still have to pay for points? Is our week worthless? (Gold season surfwatch garden view - we love it)

3) I see mention of “no fees” to trade in our week for DC points. What’s the average savings there?

We did sit in on a presentation in the past but it was confusing, it was hard sell and I don’t remember anything too specific because we didn’t do it. 

I’m just curious about how it all works so when we do go into the presentation I have a better grasp on it all. I also see there’s a newer program coming next year. Does anyone know what that actually is?

Thanks for your time and patience. 

Dee


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## vacationtime1 (Aug 19, 2019)

DeeCee said:


> Good morning. Very interesting thread. Although, I must admit the MVC DC points program buy in confuses me a bit. We purchased a legacy week almost 3 years ago. Resale but direct through Marriott. I think we could have done a little better with price on the resale market, but compared to direct DC points sales pitch we saved over $20,000. Of course, we understand that our week is not as flexible as the DC points system. We were also more comfortable with a quick and easy transaction, going directly through Marriott as we never did a private resale transaction.
> 
> Forgive my naivety, I do have some questions.
> 
> ...




If it's not broken, don't fix it.  If you are happy with what you have, why change it?

If it were me, I would listen patiently, ask no questions (ask any questions here to get better answers), and politely and firmly say "NO".

I would not pay resale, let alone retail, given the uncertainty of whether, how, and when the merger will affect my purchase.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 19, 2019)

DeeCee said:


> Good morning. Very interesting thread. Although, I must admit the MVC DC points program buy in confuses me a bit. We purchased a legacy week almost 3 years ago. Resale but direct through Marriott. I think we could have done a little better with price on the resale market, but compared to direct DC points sales pitch we saved over $20,000. Of course, we understand that our week is not as flexible as the DC points system. We were also more comfortable with a quick and easy transaction, going directly through Marriott as we never did a private resale transaction.
> 
> Forgive my naivety, I do have some questions.
> 
> ...


My answers below:

1) With Marriott, you do not have to trade-in your week to participate in points. Marriott usually pitches some form of "enrollment" which means that you just add the *option* to convert your week to points in any given use year. So, one year you use your week or trade it in II as you always have, but the next year, you could opt to convert it to points and play in the points world. That world allows check-in on any day, shorter than 7 night stays at your option, the ability to pick a specific view (which you can't do in II), and a more hotel-like booking process instead of the II trading model.
2) Marriott will often offer you the option to buy Points for the right to enroll your week as described in #1 above. Unless that week was bought prior to June 2010, enrolling it in points will almost always require you buying other points from Marriott (those points come in the form of deeded interests in their points-based real estate trust). For externally-purchased weeks those offers almost always are only during time-limited promotions. Since your week was purchased from MVC's internal resales group, they may be more flexible, but will almost definitely require you to buy points to enroll that week in the Points system. So if your Gold Surfwatch Garden week is worth, just guessing, 2800 points or so, if they allow it, Marriott would probably want you to buy around 3000 points to enroll that week. If you did, you would then have the 3000 points you bought, *plus* your week. So in any years that you decide to convert your week to points, you would have a total of 5800 points in that year (the 3000 trust points plus the 2800 value of your week). Or you could just keep your week as a week as you always have and still have your 3000 trust points to use in those years.
3) Once you join the MVC points system you pay an annual $205 membership fee that covers your II membership fee, all II trade/re-trade fees, booking fees, etc. There are no per-transaction fees for MVC points accounts or points transactions.


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## tshd (Aug 19, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> They do have to make back the purchase price of the acquisitions at a minimum, correct. Sure, I trade in II. But I go outside Marriott et al too. I doubt there will be massive II trading differences. In DC, those that elect for points do remove those weeks for weeks traders, however, they remove the owner as well, so, no trading is lost.




I hope that they don't combine the programs (at least not via mass enrollment) and perhaps just clarify that trading is possible via II using points (which I believe is already available, although I've never used points to trade in II).  

It's easy to say that the user experience shouldn't have changed much with the introduction of DCP/VCP because although a week disappeared, so did its owner from II.  But if say (for example sake only, but I'm sure it's somewhat true) all Hawaii weeks owners had decided to join DC because their points values were higher and they could see the value in having flexibility to travel to other HI islands or other resorts for short stays, then the availability of Hawaii weeks would be non-existent in II.  So all of those folks who had been used to trading Florida or desert weeks for HI would definitely have a changed user experience.  

Fortunately for weeks traders, not everyone was familiar with the new program, so they didn't enroll at the time when the enrollment fee was reasonable, but since then, Marriott has enticed quite a few resale owners to buy retail in order to join DC. I suspect if Marriott offers a new amnesty program, now that everyone is more familiar with it, I'm sure there would be quite a bit more interest and consequently more noticeable effects. It wouldn't seem good business practice to allow Vistana resale owners to buy in with an enrollment fee and not offer the same to loyal Marriott owners.  I just think this type of mass enrollment would be very disruptive for both current points and weeks owners. Imagine paying to go to a concert for 10,000 people and suddenly 50,000 show up, even though 5000 of the original group left, it still would not be the same experience the original 10K bought into.

I almost bought WKORV.  Westin properties are very nice, but not really anywhere I want to travel except Maui. I'm one of those West Coast people, so I ultimately bought Marriott because I liked that they have resorts on the beach throughout Hawaii and in California, which Westin does not.  I understand that folks continue to buy into the point system creating more competition, but it's a slow process.  I'm not thrilled at the prospect of a sudden mass influx of new owners with a pent up desire to visit Marriotts, especially because my desire is not reciprocal.  Perhaps there are a lot of Hawaii owners who are chomping at the bit to go to a Westin, but I'm doubtful. It's the mantra here everyday, "buy where you want to go", which I did and I'm figuring a lot of other people who like Hawaii did so also.  

I hope Marriott doesn't mess with the current status quo just to make a quick profit and moves more slowly by trying to entice Vistana owners to trade in their weeks/buy into VCP, rather than offering mass enrollment of weeks for an enrollment fee(not holding my breath,though when it comes to Marriott making a profit over owner satisfaction). 

Am I incorrect in figuring that there are quite a few Vistana owners who would love to have parity with Marriott owners to get into the much wider variety of MVC destinations, even if they aren't "Westin quality"?  Are a lot of the Marriott owners here wanting to trade for a Westin more regularly than another Marriott?  I don't feel much difference between the two brands, so for me it's about location availability and Marriott is the clear winner in that respect.


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## kds4 (Aug 19, 2019)

tshd said:


> I hope that they don't combine the programs (at least not via mass enrollment) and perhaps just clarify that trading is possible via II using points (which I believe is already available, although I've never used points to trade in II).
> 
> It's easy to say that the user experience shouldn't have changed much with the introduction of DCP/VCP because although a week disappeared, so did its owner from II.  But if say (for example sake only, but I'm sure it's somewhat true) all Hawaii weeks owners had decided to join DC because their points values were higher and they could see the value in having flexibility to travel to other HI islands or other resorts for short stays, then the availability of Hawaii weeks would be non-existent in II.  So all of those folks who had been used to trading Florida or desert weeks for HI would definitely have a changed user experience.
> 
> ...



You make some interesting points. Personally, I am not one with ambition to suddenly begin exploring the Starwood/Hyatt/Westin portfolio (with but the rare exception).


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 19, 2019)

tshd said:


> I hope that they don't combine the programs (at least not via mass enrollment) and perhaps just clarify that trading is possible via II using points (which I believe is already available, although I've never used points to trade in II).
> 
> It's easy to say that the user experience shouldn't have changed much with the introduction of DCP/VCP because although a week disappeared, so did its owner from II.  But if say (for example sake only, but I'm sure it's somewhat true) all Hawaii weeks owners had decided to join DC because their points values were higher and they could see the value in having flexibility to travel to other HI islands or other resorts for short stays, then the availability of Hawaii weeks would be non-existent in II.  So all of those folks who had been used to trading Florida or desert weeks for HI would definitely have a changed user experience.
> 
> Fortunately for weeks traders, not everyone was familiar with the new program, so they didn't enroll at the time when the enrollment fee was reasonable, but since then, Marriott has enticed quite a few resale owners to buy retail in order to join DC. I suspect if Marriott offers a new amnesty program, now that everyone is more familiar with it, I'm sure there would be quite a bit more interest and consequently more noticeable effects. It wouldn't seem good business practice to allow Vistana resale owners to buy in with an enrollment fee and not offer the same to loyal Marriott owners.  I just think this type of mass enrollment would be very disruptive for both current points and weeks owners. Imagine paying to go to a concert for 10,000 people and suddenly 50,000 show up, even though 5000 of the original group left, it still would not be the same experience the original 10K bought into.



Note, it still doesn't quite work that way. In MVCI, the fact that you enroll your week does NOT remove it from the weeks bucket. Only if you elect for points on a given year does it do so. In your extreme example, all Hawaii MVCI owners would have to enroll, AND, all would have to elect for points in any given year. Impossible. And not only that, post 2010 weeks can't be enrolled except here and there and generally for a lot of money. I doubt the majority of Hawaii weeks are enrolled. 

Yes, I realize you are using an extreme example. So, tit for tat. Say there is no DC, and, all MVCI Hawaii owners elect to occupy, you still cannot trade into it.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 19, 2019)

tshd said:


> Are a lot of the Marriott owners here wanting to trade for a Westin more regularly than another Marriott?  I don't feel much difference between the two brands, so for me it's about location availability and Marriott is the clear winner in that respect.



Just from my perspective, there are few Westin locations that would be that big of an addition. Los Cabos would really probably be the only one we would use semi-regularly. Lagunamar/Cancun is another where MVC has nothing that some others might like, but if we want to go to Mexico, I think we would choose Los Cabos (because Los Cabos has Humpback whales!). I would certainly consider trying the Westins on Maui using points if were to go there in an even year (since our ownership at MOC is only odd year), but that is a nice-to-have, not something that really adds new destinations. Westin St John would be a nice addition also, but from reading the Vistana forum, it sounds like it's hard to even book those with StarOptions, so not sure how much access we could reasonably expect.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 19, 2019)

Yeah, Los Cabos would be one for me. Atlantis, Kierland, all the Mexico, and St John as well. Certainly would not be every year or even every 5 years. More regularly than trading to Marriott? No.


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## Dean (Aug 19, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Just from my perspective, there are few Westin locations that would be that big of an addition. Los Cabos would really probably be the only one we would use semi-regularly. Lagunamar/Cancun is another where MVC has nothing that some others might like, but if we want to go to Mexico, I think we would choose Los Cabos (because Los Cabos has Humpback whales!). I would certainly consider trying the Westins on Maui using points if were to go there in an even year (since our ownership at MOC is only odd year), but that is a nice-to-have, not something that really adds new destinations. Westin St John would be a nice addition also, but from reading the Vistana forum, it sounds like it's hard to even book those with StarOptions, so not sure how much access we could reasonably expect.


I can't think of a single Westin or Vistana resort that adds to my likely usage though there are a number that might be lateral options.  The only options that I see as additive for me personally are some of the Hyatt's.  We don't go to MX and try not to do water Taxi's plus I have no interest in going back to Paradise Island.  That's not to say there aren't a number I wouldn't mind staying at or end up with a specific need in that area but none that I look at say "I want to stay there or go to that location that I can't do with MVC".  For VRI the Canadian options are interesting though some of their resorts are at or below our minimum standards, at least the ones I have direct knowledge of.


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## tshd (Aug 20, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> Note, it still doesn't quite work that way. In MVCI, the fact that you enroll your week does NOT remove it from the weeks bucket. Only if you elect for points on a given year does it do so. In your extreme example, all Hawaii MVCI owners would have to enroll, AND, all would have to elect for points in any given year. Impossible. And not only that, post 2010 weeks can't be enrolled except here and there and generally for a lot of money. I doubt the majority of Hawaii weeks are enrolled.
> 
> Yes, I realize you are using an extreme example. So, tit for tat. Say there is no DC, and, all MVCI Hawaii owners elect to occupy, you still cannot trade into it.



In my extreme example, I was trying to convey that the hypothetical HI owners had all either elected for points or used/rented their interval and therefore no owners' weeks were deposited into II in any given year.  I'm not sure how you can conclude that this is impossible.  Improbable yes, impossible no, because at the time that Marriott originally rolled out DCP, there were no restrictions on which Marriott weeks could be enrolled and once you are enrolled there is nothing limiting your ability to elect for points, that's what worries me.

I truly believe that if more owners had understood how the program works and that the buy in would be much more costly in the future, then they would have paid the enrollment fee, even if they didn't intend to elect points every year, or at all for that matter, if they owned a few l/off weeks they like to trade in II.  It's just my hunch, but from reading how many folks here have bought weeks/points directly from Marriott to get into DC, I'm pretty confident in my assumption.  Now that it's ten years later, I think even more people would be game to enroll quickly, if Marriott offered enrollment without a purchase.

I bought a Maui week, to be able to go there if I choose.  I think we know that's really all we are guaranteed. Although I bought a week where I like to go, I also bought some weeks strictly for trading.  I consciously bought Marriott with the hope that other Marriott owners would want to try out other Marriotts and deposit their unit for trade. I think most who bought Marriott with the hope of trading would say that having Marriott trading priority is relatively important, same I'm sure with owners of Vistana and Hyatt. It's even more important for those who have paid a premium to trade within an internal system as opposed to II where units from all different developers are traded. My SIL owns Hyatt and already struggles to get her desired trades within Hyatt's internal system.  She recently purchased whatever the Hyatt equivalent of DC points is, with the promise that it would make her trades easier.  I'm sure she doesn't want more competition from Marriott owners such as myself and I appreciate that as a valid concern knowing that she paid a premium to get those points. The thought that I will potentially be forced to purchase a lot more points so that I will have an equal chance to book a night that might otherwise be taken by someone who acquired a ton of SVV for cheap on eBay, doesn't make me happy.  I don't really want to acquire Vistana weeks, just to hedge my bets based on rumors and speculation nor do I want to feel like I missed out once again, if I don't, like what happened when DC was announced.  At this point, I just want to stick with the status quo, so I can move forward with confidence and not trepidation.

FWIW, it seems to me that the more valuable points wise your week is, the better the incentive to have it enrolled rather than gamble with II, because otherwise you're more likely trading down, especially owners in high maintenance places like HI and the Caribbean.  With II, I could trade for a 2bd in Palm Springs with my studio but with points I can get much more than 7 days and a whole lot more if I opt for a smaller unit. I wouldn't want to trade from Hawaii for a studio in the desert through II because I would feel I wasn't getting an equitable trade.  Personally, I don't see any reason why someone with a HI week wouldn't enroll if the original offer came around again, unless the owner never trades and only goes to their home resort.


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## Dean (Aug 20, 2019)

tshd said:


> In my extreme example, I was trying to convey that the hypothetical HI owners had all either elected for points or used/rented their interval and therefore no owners' weeks were deposited into II in any given year.  I'm not sure how you can conclude that this is impossible.  Improbable yes, impossible no, because at the time that Marriott originally rolled out DCP, there were no restrictions on which Marriott weeks could be enrolled and once you are enrolled there is nothing limiting your ability to elect for points, that's what worries me.
> 
> I truly believe that if more owners had understood how the program works and that the buy in would be much more costly in the future, then they would have paid the enrollment fee, even if they didn't intend to elect points every year, or at all for that matter, if they owned a few l/off weeks they like to trade in II.  It's just my hunch, but from reading how many folks here have bought weeks/points directly from Marriott to get into DC, I'm pretty confident in my assumption.  Now that it's ten years later, I think even more people would be game to enroll quickly, if Marriott offered enrollment without a purchase.
> 
> ...


Often those who would have qualified in 2010 but haven't enrolled can enroll for free now either by watching a webinar or by attending a sales presentation.  I doubt we'll see a mass influx, Marriott will want to maximize the profits and keep their sales force busy.  IMO the big risk is that all of the groups will get II trading preference that is the same as that currently offered to Marriott though if so, it will also open up additional resorts for priority.


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## DannyTS (Aug 20, 2019)

tshd said:


> In my extreme example, I was trying to convey that the hypothetical HI owners had all either elected for points or used/rented their interval and therefore no owners' weeks were deposited into II in any given year.  I'm not sure how you can conclude that this is impossible.  Improbable yes, impossible no, because at the time that Marriott originally rolled out DCP, there were no restrictions on which Marriott weeks could be enrolled and once you are enrolled there is nothing limiting your ability to elect for points, that's what worries me.
> 
> I truly believe that if more owners had understood how the program works and that the buy in would be much more costly in the future, then they would have paid the enrollment fee, even if they didn't intend to elect points every year, or at all for that matter, if they owned a few l/off weeks they like to trade in II.  It's just my hunch, but from reading how many folks here have bought weeks/points directly from Marriott to get into DC, I'm pretty confident in my assumption.  Now that it's ten years later, I think even more people would be game to enroll quickly, if Marriott offered enrollment without a purchase.
> 
> ...


All your arguments are actually in favor of mass enrollment and allowing both Marriott and Vistana week owners to be part of the club. This would actually significantly improve availability and choice.


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## DannyTS (Aug 20, 2019)

Dean said:


> I can't think of a single Westin or Vistana resort that adds to my likely usage though there are a number that might be lateral options.


I think MVW is going by the "If you build it, he will come".


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## CPNY (Aug 20, 2019)

tshd said:


> I hope that they don't combine the programs (at least not via mass enrollment) and perhaps just clarify that trading is possible via II using points (which I believe is already available, although I've never used points to trade in II).
> 
> It's easy to say that the user experience shouldn't have changed much with the introduction of DCP/VCP because although a week disappeared, so did its owner from II.  But if say (for example sake only, but I'm sure it's somewhat true) all Hawaii weeks owners had decided to join DC because their points values were higher and they could see the value in having flexibility to travel to other HI islands or other resorts for short stays, then the availability of Hawaii weeks would be non-existent in II.  So all of those folks who had been used to trading Florida or desert weeks for HI would definitely have a changed user experience.
> 
> ...


You bring up some really good points. I agree, MVC wins out in locations. But I think there are plenty of people on the vistana side not chomping at the bit. It would be nice to have more options but most people bought into the systems they bought into for certain reasons. As an east coast vistana owner, I’d be interested in Aruba and possibly St Thomas, with the occasional ski week. From what I’ve seen I’d be able to exchange my Orlando for a ski week through interval. Would I convert? The price would have to be low. I think you may find more people opting for priority interval exchange of weeks rather than converting into a DC. 

The point about you not holding your breath over MVC putting profit before customer satisfaction.... is that something you have experienced before? As a vistana owner, I have no experience with the way MVC operates. Although been in contact with sales about an enrolled Aruba resale week. Still debating. 

I wouldn’t worry about them combining the programs just yet. It’s only been a year and anything new will be some time off. Especially since anything combined may be a completely different product which everyone has to buy.


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## Fasttr (Aug 20, 2019)

CPNY said:


> I think you may find more people opting for priority interval exchange of weeks rather than converting into a DC.


Its possible that any cross system pollination preference granted via II may only be granted for those enrolled in the DC and using their "corporate account" while trading in II.  That would encourage enrollment in the DC, but still allow II to be used as a vehicle (in addition to the DC) for cross platform exchanges.


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## DannyTS (Aug 20, 2019)

Fasttr said:


> Its possible that any cross system pollination preference granted via II may only be granted for those enrolled in the DC and using their "corporate account" while trading in II.  That would encourage enrollment in the DC, but still allow II to be used as a vehicle (in addition to the DC) for cross platform exchanges.


I am not sure that ANY II benefit is enough to spend money on enrollment.


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## DannyTS (Aug 20, 2019)

Out of curiosity, what keeps the Marriott and Vistana owners from exchanging more directly and bypassing DC and VSN altogether? For those that are not enrolled in DC and for those that have voluntary Vistana weeks it seems like an ideal solution to not pay Interval exchange fees or incur  high enrollment costs.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 20, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> I am not sure that ANY II benefit is enough to spend money on enrollment.



Marriott-to-Marriott (same size unit) exchanges via the DC-related corporate II accounts don't incur transaction fees, and that's only one example of the a la carte transaction fees that are covered under the DC annual Club Dues for enrolled Weeks. For many TUGgers the II exchange fee savings were THE reason they enrolled their eligible Weeks, knowing that they would rarely, if ever, convert the Week to DC Points.


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## CPNY (Aug 20, 2019)

Fasttr said:


> Its possible that any cross system pollination preference granted via II may only be granted for those enrolled in the DC and using their "corporate account" while trading in II.  That would encourage enrollment in the DC, but still allow II to be used as a vehicle (in addition to the DC) for cross platform exchanges.



Or they allow everyone To exchange and charge a cross brand exchange fee. Or only allow II exchanges for unenrolled weeks owners on the MVC side and the unenrolled (in the VSN) weeks owners on the VSE side. Then offer enrollment with a fee to the VSN enrolled owners. So many possibilities. I said this a while back. I’m interested to see what happens. In the meantime I just made two new reservations with star options last night, still holding out for Aruba Ocean Club to show up in II lol.


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## CPNY (Aug 20, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> Marriott-to-Marriott (same size unit) exchanges via the DC-related corporate II accounts don't incur transaction fees, and that's only one example of the a la carte transaction fees that are covered under the DC annual Club Dues for enrolled Weeks. For many TUGgers the II exchange fee savings were THE reason they enrolled their eligible Weeks, knowing that they would rarely, if ever, convert the Week to DC Points.


Do unenrolled  weeks owners pay an exchange fee for Marriott to Marriott?

When you say “corporate account” is that the interval account that comes with the DC ownership? I’ve seen it with vistana and wondering if that’s the type of account I have because I have mandatory weeks I own. In other words I don’t pay an II membership. It comes with the VSN Fee


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 20, 2019)

tshd said:


> In my extreme example, I was trying to convey that the hypothetical HI owners had all either elected for points or used/rented their interval and therefore no owners' weeks were deposited into II in any given year.  I'm not sure how you can conclude that this is impossible.  Improbable yes, impossible no, because at the time that Marriott originally rolled out DCP, there were no restrictions on which Marriott weeks could be enrolled and once you are enrolled there is nothing limiting your ability to elect for points, that's what worries me.



If you've been on TUG for a while, you'd know there are so many folks who have no interest in enrolling. For whatever reason, they really dislike the whole points thing and want to use their week "as they always have". Regarding II trading into Marriott, I've never had an issue, and don't expect to. For 2020, traded a studio lockoff for 2BR  Kauai. Nothing new. I am really surprised how easy it is and has been to get into Hawaii. I've always been surprised how many Hawaii owners must trade in II.

If you find this all worrisome, I guess that's your right to do so. Me, I don't worry. We'll see how it comes out in a number of years. I do agree it is or was wise to enroll since it's an option to elect. I can't imagine MVCI under any circumstances offering free enrollment (post 2010) without a purchase or even a super low cost enrollment. It's not what they do. And if they combine the program somehow, sure, they'll be a lot more traders. However, they'll be a lot more resorts too.

Yes, unenrolled owners pay an exchange fee, a lockoff fee, etc. With points and enrolled weeks, you pay a fixed fee often cheaper than paying all the fees and it comes with II corporate account. For me, since I always trade the studio and lock it off, the fees are cheaper than if the week were not enrolled.


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## tshd (Aug 20, 2019)

Dean said:


> Often those who would have qualified in 2010 but haven't enrolled can enroll for free now either by watching a webinar or by attending a sales presentation.  I doubt we'll see a mass influx, Marriott will want to maximize the profits and keep their sales force busy.  IMO the big risk is that all of the groups will get II trading preference that is the same as that currently offered to Marriott though if so, it will also open up additional resorts for priority.


Basically, loss of priority is what worries me the most too.  I know how my weeks/points trade currently but don't know how providing equal access to SVN owners will alter this, especially since I don't see a reciprocal benefit since I don't really care to trade into SVN resorts.  That's why I bought Marriott and not Starwood.


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## tshd (Aug 20, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> All your arguments are actually in favor of mass enrollment and allowing both Marriott and Vistana week owners to be part of the club. This would actually significantly improve availability and choice.


This may be true but only if more folks want to trade out of Marriott than folks who want to trade in.  For example, if I am currently vying with 10,000 other owners for a particular date/location and now 10,000 more people are allowed in to compete for that same date/location but none of the original 10,000 decided they wanted to switch for one of the locations the new 10,000 people brought into the system, I'm now competing with twice as many people.  Is my supposition faulty?


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## SueDonJ (Aug 20, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> Marriott-to-Marriott (same size unit) exchanges via the DC-related corporate II accounts don't incur transaction fees, and that's only one example of the a la carte transaction fees that are covered under the DC annual Club Dues for enrolled Weeks. For many TUGgers the II exchange fee savings were THE reason they enrolled their eligible Weeks, knowing that they would rarely, if ever, convert the Week to DC Points.





CPNY said:


> Do unenrolled  weeks owners pay an exchange fee for Marriott to Marriott?
> 
> When you say “corporate account” is that the interval account that comes with the DC ownership? I’ve seen it with vistana and wondering if that’s the type of account I have because I have mandatory weeks I own. In other words I don’t pay an II membership. It comes with the VSN Fee



I've never seen a Vistana-affiliated II account interface so can't say if it's the same or not. The way II works with Marriott is, all Marriott Weeks are eligible to exchange via individual II accounts subject to the basics of whatever membership fee II charges plus the per-exchange transaction fees.

Enrolled Marriott Weeks can be used exactly the same ways as un-enrolled Weeks, PLUS have the option of being converted to DC Exchange Points on an annual basis. Enrolled Weeks are assigned an additional corporate II account that functions exactly the same as the individual accounts except that, the DC annual Club Dues fee covers the II membership fee and the basic exchange transaction fees for same-size Marriott-to-Marriott exchanges. Many owners who see no benefit at all to playing with DC Points enrolled their Weeks simply because it reduces the costs for exchanging via II. The more intervals you own/the more Marriott-to-Marriott exchanges you usually do, the more you save.

BUT, only enrolled Weeks can be added to these corporate II accounts. If you own non-Marriott intervals or non-enrolled Marriott Weeks and intend to continue exchanging them via II, you'll have to keep your existing individual II account and pay the fees for those transactions. Also, II add-ons like Gold membership, up-sizing, Getaways, etc in the DC-related corporate accounts are not covered by the DC Club Dues fee.

Using DC Trust (purchased) Points, all Marriott reservations are booked via the DC and all non-Marriott exchanges are booked via II corporate accounts, with the same caveats about Club Dues covering only Marriott-to-Marriott transaction fees.


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## CPNY (Aug 20, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> I've never seen a Vistana-affiliated II account interface so can't say if it's the same or not. The way II works with Marriott is, all Marriott Weeks are eligible to exchange via individual II accounts subject to the basics of whatever membership fee II charges plus the per-exchange transaction fees.
> 
> Enrolled Marriott Weeks can be used exactly the same ways as un-enrolled Weeks, PLUS have the option of being converted to DC Exchange Points on an annual basis. Enrolled Weeks are assigned an additional corporate II account that functions exactly the same as the individual accounts except that, the DC annual Club Dues fee covers the II membership fee and the basic exchange transaction fees for same-size Marriott-to-Marriott exchanges. Many owners who see no benefit at all to playing with DC Points enrolled their Weeks simply because it reduces the costs for exchanging via II. The more intervals you own/the more Marriott-to-Marriott exchanges you usually do, the more you save.
> 
> ...


Thank you for explaining. It seems to be somewhat similar for VSN II accounts. All mandatory ownerships are lumped into one II account with membership fees covered in the VSN fee. When I was looking at picking up a voluntary deed I’d have to have a completely separate account for that ownership. When I spoke to MVC Sales (I have to call them back, totally forgot) lol. I was told I’d have another II account. That all makes sense now. Thanks


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## SueDonJ (Aug 20, 2019)

CPNY said:


> Thank you for explaining. It seems to be somewhat similar for VSN II accounts. All mandatory ownerships are lumped into one II account with membership fees covered in the VSN fee. When I was looking at picking up a voluntary deed I’d have to have a completely separate account for that ownership. When I spoke to MVC Sales (I have to call them back, totally forgot) lol. I was told I’d have another II account. That all makes sense now. Thanks



You're welcome.  I did a little bit of editing while you were posting, if you want to go back and see if anything was made more or less clear.


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## tshd (Aug 20, 2019)

The point about you not holding your breath over MVC putting profit before customer satisfaction.... is that something you have experienced before? As a vistana owner, I have no experience with the way MVC operates. Although been in contact with sales about an enrolled Aruba resale week. Still debating.

The mere fact that salespeople constantly tell customers things that are blatantly false, shows profit over customer satisfaction.  I was told by the sales team that I would have a Marriott priority with trades in II, but when the recession hit and I was not able to travel and therefore deposited my l/o with II, I could clearly see with a non-Marriott week that the priority wasn't always there.  This was outside of flex time.  When I mentioned this in subsequent sales meetings, the response was that they couldn't control II.  Then why tell people there is priority when trading through II, if it isn't necessarily true; profit.

That's the main reason I elected to join DC was to have the option to cut II out of my trades and to know I was only exchanging with a more limited group of owners within the Marriott system.  I'd like to increase my points ownership but that is not an inexpensive proposition.  I really don't see a Marriott salesperson saying "don't buy points now, go buy resale SVV instead", even if they know that a change is in the pipeline that will allow those SVV weeks into the DC system sometime in the future.  I don't blame them, their job is to sell Marriott.

What's the expression "fool me once..."  I just don't want to feel like a fool twice over, so I'm ready for them to just tell us already what they plan to do and stop with the smoke and mirrors.


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## DannyTS (Aug 20, 2019)

tshd said:


> This may be true but only if more folks want to trade out of Marriott than folks who want to trade in.  For example, if I am currently vying with 10,000 other owners for a particular date/location and now 10,000 more people are allowed in to compete for that same date/location but none of the original 10,000 decided they wanted to switch for one of the locations the new 10,000 people brought into the system, I'm now competing with twice as many people.  Is my supposition faulty?


You are correct in general. But I think it shows a certain home bias that we all have. When it comes to _my own_ home bias, we cancelled a 2 bdr Interval booking for next year at  Marriott Ko Olina, we got instead a 2 bdr at Westin Nanea. I am much happier with my trade: newer resort, I can book additional days on Staroptions at the same resort or at Westin Ka'anapali etc, etc. It is of course subjective. Additionally, I am not sure if Hawaii is your gold standard but given the lower owneship base, on a relative basis Vistana has more Hawaii capacity than MVC so we have more to fear.

This year we had guests at Westin Lagunamar  in Cancun and they are MVC owners. They loved it.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 20, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> Out of curiosity, what keeps the Marriott and Vistana owners from exchanging more directly and bypassing DC and VSN altogether? For those that are not enrolled in DC and for those that have voluntary Vistana weeks it seems like an ideal solution to not pay Interval exchange fees or incur  high enrollment costs.



Throughout the industry there's nothing, as long as the companies involved allow owners to attach Guest names to reservations of owned intervals. Marriott and Vistana both allow it so there's that, but the problem is lack of inventory because far more owners utilize the exchange companies that are included with ownership rather than seek out - if they even know this type of thing is possible - the few (mostly online) sites that facilitate private exchanges.

(Here on TUG the rules prohibit sales/rentals/exchanges ads in the public forums, so you'd have to use the Marketplace.)


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## SueDonJ (Aug 20, 2019)

CPNY said:


> I speculated that a while back. It could be a third program where DC Points and Star Options would convert to a new “currency” you have the be a certain level or “buy in” In a sense deposit or convert what you own to book. It could all be done through interval. Interesting how the interval guide that was mailed today is all about “using your points to exchange with interval: it’s easy!” A guide just for points based vacation owners on how to use the interval exchange. I bet a third program could be a nice sell. But who knows, I just hope priority exchange happens first and fast.



After being away these last few weeks I just went through a stack of mail including the most recent II guide geared to Marriott ownership, which has a "Marriott Vacation Club" logo on the lower left corner of the cover. It includes an insert, "Getting The Most out of Your Vacation Club Points When Making an Exchange Through Interval" and on page 2, "As a Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Owner ..." Is this or something similar what was included with your Vistana-related II guide?

If so, you might be interested to know that this isn't anything new for Marriott owners; it was introduced a couple years after the DC introduction. (And maybe, in typical Marriott IT fashion that doesn't always account for the different products under the Marriott umbrella, it might simply be a stupid byproduct of the II mailing lists beginning to reflect that Vistana now comes under the MVW umbrella?)

If not, I'd be interested to know what's different between mine and yours because it might give some clues to what may be coming.


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## CPNY (Aug 20, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> After being away these last few weeks I just went through a stack of mail including the most recent II guide geared to Marriott ownership, which has a "Marriott Vacation Club" logo on the lower left corner of the cover. It includes an insert, "Getting The Most out of Your Vacation Club Points When Making an Exchange Through Interval" and on page 2, "As a Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Owner ..." Is this or something similar what was included with your Vistana-related II guide?
> 
> If so, you might be interested to know that this isn't anything new for Marriott owners; it was introduced a couple years after the DC introduction. (And maybe, in typical Marriott IT fashion that doesn't always account for the different products under the Marriott umbrella, it might simply be a stupid byproduct of the II mailing lists beginning to reflect that Vistana now comes under the MVW umbrella?)
> 
> If not, I'd be interested to know what's different between mine and yours because it might give some clues to what may be coming.


Honestly the whole exchange points booklet they sent didn’t give much information at all. I thought it would have given some insight but that wasn’t the case. I suspect they sent it to learn more about how to exchange using the flex plan? Idk, I just keep buying mandatory resorts. Someone needs to stop me lol. I just booked two weeks in Bahamas this week with my new ownerships within a day of hitting my account lol.


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## Dean (Aug 21, 2019)

tshd said:


> Basically, loss of priority is what worries me the most too.  I know how my weeks/points trade currently but don't know how providing equal access to SVN owners will alter this, especially since I don't see a reciprocal benefit since I don't really care to trade into SVN resorts.  That's why I bought Marriott and not Starwood.


Non of us do.  One thing I've learned about timeshares is that they change over time and usually not for the better.  I wouldn't worry much about it but I would keep my eyes open and I would be careful paying tons of money for options that could easily change and are not contractual.  I remember those who bought at some of the HH resorts to use for MVC exchanges and those resorts were cut out of the system so they lost their priority.  But IF the priority were opened up completely between all shared resorts, the number of properties those exchanges were looking at would increase proportionally so the overall impact would likely not be that dramatic.



tshd said:


> This may be true but only if more folks want to trade out of Marriott than folks who want to trade in.  For example, if I am currently vying with 10,000 other owners for a particular date/location and now 10,000 more people are allowed in to compete for that same date/location but none of the original 10,000 decided they wanted to switch for one of the locations the new 10,000 people brought into the system, I'm now competing with twice as many people.  Is my supposition faulty?


The same answer, more options and more points.  But it would likely affect some locations more than others.  Aruba, MB and HHI would likely be more affected than say HI.  And the reverse would be true for some of the resorts in the other systems.


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## tshd (Aug 21, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> You are correct in general. But I think it shows a certain home bias that we all have. When it comes to _my own_ home bias, we cancelled a 2 bdr Interval booking for next year at  Marriott Ko Olina, we got instead a 2 bdr at Westin Nanea. I am much happier with my trade: newer resort, I can book additional days on Staroptions at the same resort or at Westin Ka'anapali etc, etc. It is of course subjective. Additionally, I am not sure if Hawaii is your gold standard but given the lower owneship base, on a relative basis Vistana has more Hawaii capacity than MVC so we have more to fear.
> 
> This year we had guests at Westin Lagunamar  in Cancun and they are MVC owners. They loved it.



I appreciate that Vistana owners will be impacted too if there is a melding of the programs or loss of priority.  Westin properties are very nice and I would love to stay in them as much as I would Marriott, if they were in locations I'd like to visit.  Laguna Mar looks wonderful and Atlantis looksfun as well, but being night owls, we don't like going against the clock.  I also understand that the Vistana Maui properties could potentially be on the most popular request list for Marriott owners and potentially a strong sales pitch for existing DC owners to buy more points.  I am looking at this from my own selfish perspective.  

I think the biggest worry is that in DC its the total points value that you own( ie your ownership status Chairman's, Presidential, Executive,etc) that determines your priority booking status within the DC program and that is subject to change at the whims of Marriott.  I think with SO everyone who is wishing to trade to a non-owner resort are all on parity at 7 months.  Please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding?  So home resort priority is protected, but how will the two programs work together if one allows owners to trade outside their resort as early as 13 months and the other not until 7 months?  Seems to me they would need to protect that 7 month threshold for Vistana owners, so it could potentially drive Vistana owners with lots of points to book Marriott with their priority at 13 months, no?  Then those owners who originally bought Marriott but don't have enough points to book in a priority period will now be at a further disadvantage.  Please correct me if my thinking is flawed.
Thanks,
Alex


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## tshd (Aug 21, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> You are correct in general. But I think it shows a certain home bias that we all have. When it comes to _my own_ home bias, we cancelled a 2 bdr Interval booking for next year at  Marriott Ko Olina, we got instead a 2 bdr at Westin Nanea. I am much happier with my trade: newer resort, I can book additional days on Staroptions at the same resort or at Westin Ka'anapali etc, etc. It is of course subjective. Additionally, I am not sure if Hawaii is your gold standard but given the lower owneship base, on a relative basis Vistana has more Hawaii capacity than MVC so we have more to fear.
> 
> This year we had guests at Westin Lagunamar  in Cancun and they are MVC owners. They loved it.



Funny thing is it's not really home bias in my case, unless all of Hawaii is considered home. I actually now prefer Kauai to Maui, so that's why I'm concerned about the possible diminishing of trade priority.  I can't justify taking the hit on selling my Maui week to buy in Kauai just yet though.


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## DannyTS (Aug 21, 2019)

tshd said:


> Funny thing is it's not really home bias in my case, unless all of Hawaii is considered home. I actually now prefer Kauai to Maui, so that's why I'm concerned about the possible diminishing of trade priority.  I can't justify taking the hit on selling my Maui week to buy in Kauai just yet though.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 21, 2019)

tshd said:


> I think the biggest worry is that in DC its the total points value that you own( ie your ownership status Chairman's, Presidential, Executive,etc) that determines your priority booking status within the DC program and that is subject to change at the whims of Marriott.  I think with SO everyone who is wishing to trade to a non-owner resort are all on parity at 7 months.  Please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding?  So home resort priority is protected, but how will the two programs work together if one allows owners to trade outside their resort as early as 13 months and the other not until 7 months?  Seems to me they would need to protect that 7 month threshold for Vistana owners, so it could potentially drive Vistana owners with lots of points to book Marriott with their priority at 13 months, no?  Then those owners who originally bought Marriott but don't have enough points to book in a priority period will now be at a further disadvantage.  Please correct me if my thinking is flawed.
> Thanks,
> Alex



I'm not sure I'm interpreting your question accurately, but based on your example, if I'm interpreting it correctly, the lower level owners who don't own enough points for the 13-month booking window might actually be impacted less (or at least no differently) than those higher level owners who regularly book DC points at 13 months. MVC only releases up to 50% of the inventory at 13 months, so those Vistana owners who would wind up with lots of DC points (in a theoretical membership in the DC) would be competing with other high-point MVC owners for that 13-month inventory (but then, presumably, their Vistana ownership would have also been deposited to the DC Exchange, so that might siphon off some of the demand for the MVC inventory). At the 12 months point, a whole new batch of inventory is released that the lower point owners can still access as always. Yes, anyone not confirmed out of 13-month inventory would be competing for that new inventory drop as well, but that's the same way it is today.

Obviously if the Vistana owners only deposit low demand weeks into the DC Exchange but chase high demand intervals, that creates an imbalance, but that's the same way it is today if MVC owners at lower demand resorts in New Jersey or Branson convert to points and try to book Hawaii. They are creating more demand for Hawaii (they might have to bank/borrow and use three years of their points to book the high demand stuff, though), but the stuff they deposit is not as demanded.

And remember Select, Executive, Presidential, and Chairman can all book at 13 months. The only owner level that is different is the Standard Owner level - and even they can book at 13 months as well, it just costs a 20% point premium that the higher levels don't have to pay.


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## CPNY (Aug 21, 2019)

tshd said:


> I think with SO everyone who is wishing to trade to a non-owner resort are all on parity at 7 months.  Please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding?  So home resort priority is protected, but how will the two programs work together if one allows owners to trade outside their resort as early as 13 months and the other not until 7 months?  Seems to me they would need to protect that 7 month threshold for Vistana owners, so it could potentially drive Vistana owners with lots of points to book Marriott with their priority at 13 months, no?  Then those owners who originally bought Marriott but don't have enough points to book in a priority period will now be at a further disadvantage.  Please correct me if my thinking is flawed.
> Thanks,
> Alex



Vistana booking within network is at 8 months. 

They could treat star options like MVC enrolled weeks and if you elect to convert options to DC points then you lose VSN reservations and you play in the DC pool. With MVC/VSE buying back deeded weeks to sell Westin and Sheraton flex they could be building inventory to put into the DC program. Others will be able to give more information on the legality and building of trusts though. They could always build out a 3rd integrated product. Who really knows how it will all play out.


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## tshd (Aug 22, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I'm not sure I'm interpreting your question accurately, but based on your example, if I'm interpreting it correctly, the lower level owners who don't own enough points for the 13-month booking window might actually be impacted less (or at least no differently) than those higher level owners who regularly book DC points at 13 months. MVC only releases up to 50% of the inventory at 13 months, so those Vistana owners who would wind up with lots of DC points (in a theoretical membership in the DC) would be competing with other high-point MVC owners for that 13-month inventory (but then, presumably, their Vistana ownership would have also been deposited to the DC Exchange, so that might siphon off some of the demand for the MVC inventory). At the 12 months point, a whole new batch of inventory is released that the lower point owners can still access as always. Yes, anyone not confirmed out of 13-month inventory would be competing for that new inventory drop as well, but that's the same way it is today.
> 
> Obviously if the Vistana owners only deposit low demand weeks into the DC Exchange but chase high demand intervals, that creates an imbalance, but that's the same way it is today if MVC owners at lower demand resorts in New Jersey or Branson convert to points and try to book Hawaii. They are creating more demand for Hawaii (they might have to bank/borrow and use three years of their points to book the high demand stuff, though), but the stuff they deposit is not as demanded.
> 
> And remember Select, Executive, Presidential, and Chairman can all book at 13 months. The only owner level that is different is the Standard Owner level - and even they can book at 13 months as well, it just costs a 20% point premium that the higher levels don't have to pay.



Jim you make a good point about the impact potentially being greater on higher level DC members.  I hadn't thought about the 50% release. The more money I have invested, the less I would like to have a potentially negative impact though. 

I understand the ebb and flow of the system and there will always be changes over time as new people buy in.  My main fear was when someone mentioned an amnesty or low cost enrollment option.  To me that would be akin to a dam bursting; very disruptive for a while and perhaps changing the landscape permanently, although eventually returning to a new normal.  Even though I could benefit from another shot at enrolling my unqualified weeks, I guess I still would prefer a gradual changing of the landscape over time rather than a deluge, especially if I've already invested a large amount of money into the existing landscape.  But if Marriott does choose this option, hopefully I'm just overestimating the flood of interest in it. Or preferably goes for a third program, leaving the other two somewhat intact.


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## tshd (Aug 22, 2019)

Or the passenger to pool lounger ratio!


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## LeslieDet (Aug 22, 2019)

I attended a Vistana update/sales pitch, and I think that you perhaps misunderstood the pitch that your current Westin/Starwood properties would translate to 25k or 35k in Marriott "points".  In the Vistana sales pitch that I attended, they were selling the "new" Vistana FlexOptions program.  The pitch to me was that my existing Marriott ownership would qualify for between 25k - 35k each in "FlexOptions" points if I purchased an initial amount of FlexOptions from them.  The different owner levels for FlexOptions were quite high, Vistana has what they call their 3-star, 4-star, and 5-star owner levels. The HomeOptions required to be a 3-star is 159,000, 4-star 359,000 and 5-star 649,000.  So, my existing StarOptions  for owning in Nanea are 95,700, and I'd get "credit" for my Marriott ownership in the range of 25k - 35k for each property, subject to a cap (which I think was something like 75k "FlexOptions", so I'd only need to purchase a nominal amount of FlexOptions (by trading in my current ownership and getting credit for the full price I paid), and I'd be in as a 3 star level owner.  I'm pretty sure that they were not saying your existing Westin ownership is going to equal 25k-35k in "Destination Points".    Hope that helps.


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## teddyo333 (Aug 23, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I attended a Vistana update/sales pitch, and I think that you perhaps misunderstood the pitch that your current Westin/Starwood properties would translate to 25k or 35k in Marriott "points".  In the Vistana sales pitch that I attended, they were selling the "new" Vistana FlexOptions program.  The pitch to me was that my existing Marriott ownership would qualify for between 25k - 35k each in "FlexOptions" points if I purchased an initial amount of FlexOptions from them.  The different owner levels for FlexOptions were quite high, Vistana has what they call their 3-star, 4-star, and 5-star owner levels. The HomeOptions required to be a 3-star is 159,000, 4-star 359,000 and 5-star 649,000.  So, my existing StarOptions  for owning in Nanea are 95,700, and I'd get "credit" for my Marriott ownership in the range of 25k - 35k for each property, subject to a cap (which I think was something like 75k "FlexOptions", so I'd only need to purchase a nominal amount of FlexOptions (by trading in my current ownership and getting credit for the full price I paid), and I'd be in as a 3 star level owner.  I'm pretty sure that they were not saying your existing Westin ownership is going to equal 25k-35k in "Destination Points".    Hope that helps.



I appreciate the input but the update that I attended was specific to Marriott Vacation Club and had nothing to do with Sheraton/Westin Flex. The range of points presented to me by the sale rep pertained to the locations where my Vistana properties currently reside (e.g., (1) Hawaii property possible 3K to 4K DP). My wife and I also attended a Vistana presentation where we were offered 5 star elite status to buy into Sheraton Flex and Retro an number of our units (Detail Can be found here) but of course we did not go for it. The elite status associate with Vistana & MVC are two separate entities and presentations by their respective sales reps are not interchangeable, at this time. This may change in the future but we won't know until an official announcement is made


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## JIMinNC (Aug 23, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I attended a Vistana update/sales pitch, and I think that you perhaps misunderstood the pitch that your current Westin/Starwood properties would translate to 25k or 35k in Marriott "points".  In the Vistana sales pitch that I attended, they were selling the "new" Vistana FlexOptions program.  The pitch to me was that my existing Marriott ownership would qualify for between 25k - 35k each in "FlexOptions" points if I purchased an initial amount of FlexOptions from them.  The different owner levels for FlexOptions were quite high, Vistana has what they call their 3-star, 4-star, and 5-star owner levels. The HomeOptions required to be a 3-star is 159,000, 4-star 359,000 and 5-star 649,000.  So, my existing StarOptions  for owning in Nanea are 95,700, and I'd get "credit" for my Marriott ownership in the range of 25k - 35k for each property, subject to a cap (which I think was something like 75k "FlexOptions", so I'd only need to purchase a nominal amount of FlexOptions (by trading in my current ownership and getting credit for the full price I paid), and I'd be in as a 3 star level owner.  I'm pretty sure that they were not saying your existing Westin ownership is going to equal 25k-35k in "Destination Points".    Hope that helps.



As the OP said just above, since they were at a Marriott sales office, the rep would not have been trained to sell FlexOptions. Also, since the rep referred to the Marriott owner tiers (Chairman's level), the reference was most certainly to the rep's guess as to what the OP's Vistana portfolio might be worth "someday" in Destination Points. At this point it is probably still mostly sales BS, but since this was at a Marriott resort, they were most certainly talking Marriott points. In fact, if you look at the OP's ownership in their profile under their avatar, you can see that they own at least 9 Vistana properties it looks like, so that could be easily worth 25k-35k Destination Points.

But it is interesting that you were told at a Vistana office that your Marriott ownership might equate to 25k-35k FlexOptions each. What do you own? While it may/most likely be just be more sales BS, could it raise the possibility that they might planning to initially offer a "two-way" enrollment option?  i.e. - Vistana owners could enroll their ownership in the Marriott DC by buying DC Points, and MVC owners could participate in the Vistana network by buying FlexOptions?


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## LeslieDet (Aug 23, 2019)

teddyo333 said:


> I appreciate the input but the update that I attended was specific to Marriott Vacation Club and had nothing to do with Sheraton/Westin Flex. The range of points presented to me by the sale rep pertained to the locations where my Vistana properties currently reside (e.g., (1) Hawaii property possible 3K to 4K DP). My wife and I also attended a Vistana presentation where we were offered 5 star elite status to buy into Sheraton Flex and Retro an number of our units (Detail Can be found here) but of course we did not go for it. The elite status associate with Vistana & MVC are two separate entities and presentations by their respective sales reps are not interchangeable, at this time. This may change in the future but we won't know until an official announcement is made


I understand that you attended a Marriott update - I actually own more MVCI than I do Westin. I attended the Westin/Vistana update because I wanted to understand what Vistana was pitching from their perspective, since they continue to "sell" timeshare ownership interests.  I learned about the FlexOptions program and the various "owner" levels.  I also was asking about how the properties could be integrated so that joint MVCI and Vistana owners can maximize their ownership.  What I was trying to impart is that the pitch that your Vistana/Westin ownership is going to translate into 25-35k DPs is total crap.  The values assigned to properties do not go that high unless it is something like a Ritz Carlton fractional ownership in Aspen.  I was simply letting you know that value most likely relates to what value your Marriott weeks or points will be considered on the Westin side, not vice versa.


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## Fasttr (Aug 23, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I understand that you attended a Marriott update - I actually own more MVCI than I do Westin. I attended the Westin/Vistana update because I wanted to understand what Vistana was pitching from their perspective, since they continue to "sell" timeshare ownership interests.  I learned about the FlexOptions program and the various "owner" levels.  I also was asking about how the properties could be integrated so that joint MVCI and Vistana owners can maximize their ownership.  What I was trying to impart is that the pitch that your Vistana/Westin ownership is going to translate into 25-35k DPs is total crap.  The values assigned to properties do not go that high unless it is something like a Ritz Carlton fractional ownership in Aspen.  I was simply letting you know that value most likely relates to what value your Marriott weeks or points will be considered on the Westin side, not vice versa.


The OP said this....  "25K to 35K total points based on the properties we own" 

Note the word TOTAL.  Near as I can tell from their profile, they own 9 or 10 such properties.  Assuming 9 at 2,778 DC's per would get them to 25K total points.  I am not sure what you are missing, but appears at least plausible from my perspective.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 23, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I understand that you attended a Marriott update - I actually own more MVCI than I do Westin. I attended the Westin/Vistana update because I wanted to understand what Vistana was pitching from their perspective, since they continue to "sell" timeshare ownership interests.  I learned about the FlexOptions program and the various "owner" levels.  I also was asking about how the properties could be integrated so that joint MVCI and Vistana owners can maximize their ownership.  What I was trying to impart is that the pitch that your Vistana/Westin ownership is going to translate into 25-35k DPs is total crap.  The values assigned to properties do not go that high unless it is something like a Ritz Carlton fractional ownership in Aspen.  I was simply letting you know that value most likely relates to what value your Marriott weeks or points will be considered on the Westin side, not vice versa.



I think @teddyo333 meant the sales rep meant ALL of their Vistana week’s combined would equal a total of 25K to 35K DPs, not each. With them appearing to own 8 or 9 weeks, that is hardly crap. That’s only 2800 to 3800 DPs per week. Seems very reasonable to me.

Edit: Fasttr was faster!


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## LeslieDet (Aug 23, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> As the OP said just above, since they were at a Marriott sales office, the rep would not have been trained to sell FlexOptions. Also, since the rep referred to the Marriott owner tiers (Chairman's level), the reference was most certainly to the rep's guess as to what the OP's Vistana portfolio might be worth "someday" in Destination Points. At this point it is probably still mostly sales BS, but since this was at a Marriott resort, they were most certainly talking Marriott points. In fact, if you look at the OP's ownership in their profile under their avatar, you can see that they own at least 9 Vistana properties it looks like, so that could be easily worth 25k-35k Destination Points.
> 
> But it is interesting that you were told at a Vistana office that your Marriott ownership might equate to 25k-35k FlexOptions each. What do you own? While it may/most likely be just be more sales BS, could it raise the possibility that they might planning to initially offer a "two-way" enrollment option?  i.e. - Vistana owners could enroll their ownership in the Marriott DC by buying DC Points, and MVC owners could participate in the Vistana network by buying FlexOptions?


I completely understand that it was a MVCI sales pitch.  Of course, the sales staff isn't selling FlexOptions for Vistana.  But the pitch that their Vistana properties will be worth 25k-35k points in the MVCI system is most likely purely BS.  I was letting the OP know that from the Vistana side, they are saying that MVCI ownership will translate into between 25k-35k FlexOptions (kind of like if there was a program "enrollment" of owned weeks), but what I also was told is that Vistana will only give these courtesy FlexOption "phantom" credits for a limited number of MVCI properties.  I think the max was 3, it could have been less.  But the Vistana properties are not going to come into the MVCI system at between 25k-35k each in DPs.  That just isn't the values that prime MVCI weeks generate, unless it's a Ritz Carlton Aspen fractional ownership, and then that, when enrolled, is something like 25k DPs.  

Anyway, I own 4 MVCI weeks plus DPs.  I only own one Vistana property.  I really was interested in hearing the pitch from the Vistana side, since I'm so familiar from the MVCI side.  What the sales manager was saying is that MVW (the parent of MVCI and Vistana) is working to develop an exchange rate so that DPs can be converted or "exchanged" into FlexOptions and vice versa.  It will not be a 1:1 exchange, and they did not know the formula, but repeatedly stated that they know that there is a plan to allow direct exchanges between MVCI DPs and Vistana FlexOption owners without needing to go through Interval.  

From the Vistana side, only the "new" FlexOptions will be eligible to exchange (via whatever conversion rate is identified) into DPs, not the old "StarOptions".  So, the pitch from Vistana sales is to buy FlexOptions now, use your existing Vistana ownership (as represented by a deed recorded in my situation in Hawaii)  as a full price credit to purchase the new FlexOptions (which is a point system, simlar to DPs, reflected via a deed recorded in Florida), and then once the "conversion rate" is identified, I'd be able to use those FlexOptions to book MVCI properties, plus a total of 23 Vistana sites. I told them I have enough MVCI ownership, and that is not of interest to me, so I did not explore that any further.

BTW -  With FlexOptions, there are 8 'home' resorts, and 15 other Vistana sites that are then available to book starting at month 8.  Again, they were pitching sales from Vistana's side, and to get my FlexOptions now, and then I'd be able to get special "phantom" FlexOptions based upon my MVCI ownership (capped) that would be counted towards my Vistana "star" level - whether 3, 4 or 5.   

I've attended 3 owner updates/sales pitches on the MVCI side so far this year.  They always have pitched that 46 new properties are coming into the system based upon the acquisition (Vistana and Hyatt), so buy more points now because the price is going up, plus there will be new owner levels.  That's a standard sales pitch.  When I question how the interface will happen between MVCI and Vistana, the MVCI sales folks always are vague (obviously, and expected), but the one thing that has been uniform in each update is that in the acquisition of ILG and Hyatt, only "unsold inventory" was acquired by MVCI, and that the ownership that existed prior to the acquisition would be managed by MVCI and those owners would still use and occupy their weeks as before. (Kind of like what is "unenrolled" weeks in the MVCI system).   So, no matter what, DPs are not going to have access to anything that was not "unsold" inventory at the time of the acquisition, and the old Vistana owners are not going to have access to MVCI properties (absent a new purchase of FlexOptions).  I know it is complicated, and it is difficult to explain everything here, but with Vistana launching the FlexOptions program in January 2018 and selling points currently, it really seems that Vistana and MVCI will continue to co-exist as sister corporations under the MVW umbrella.  There will not be a melding of the ownership; but I do believe that there will be some sort of currency exchange rate identified between DPs and FlexOptions that will then allow mutual access.  Indeed, the Vistana sales manager continually referred to the term "currency" and that the points on both sides will be "currency".


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## LeslieDet (Aug 23, 2019)

Fasttr said:


> The OP said this....  "25K to 35K total points based on the properties we own"
> 
> Note the word TOTAL.  Near as I can tell from their profile, they own 9 or 10 such properties.  Assuming 9 at 2,778 DC's per would get them to 25K total points.  I am not sure what you are missing, but appears at least plausible from my perspective.


This is what the OP said: "The sale rep told us that there would be a range of points that would be associated with each of our current Sheraton/Westin properties and that would equate to 25K to 35K total points based on the properties we own". 

I don't know about you, but when I read: "there would be a range of points that would be associated with EACH of our current ... that would equate to 25K to 35K total points..."  - Note the word EACH!  I am not trying to "miss" anything; and I don't participate in these forums and don't look at avatars, etc., but I read that and when I saw the word EACH, it seemed to me that there was a lot of BS floating around (especially because of the pitch from the Vistana side that my Marriott properties would be worth between 25k and 35k FlexOptions).  It would not be the first time that a sales person did not have a clue and started spitting out numbers that they may have heard in a sales meeting.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 23, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I think @teddyo333 meant the sales rep meant ALL of their Vistana week’s combined would equal a total of 25K to 35K DPs, not each. With them appearing to own 8 or 9 weeks, that is hardly crap. That’s only 2800 to 3800 DPs per week. Seems very reasonable to me.
> 
> Edit: Fasttr was faster!


Ok - they may have meant to say that, but this is not how I read it.  I saw the word "EACH" and I read the post to mean that each property would be worth that range.  I agree that if its only 2800 to 3800 per property, that is reasonable.  But, I'm skeptical that all properties would count, especially because from my Vistana update, my ownership in MVCI will only count if I buy the new FlexOptions (and there is a cap on what counts); so I sincerely doubt that old Vistana ownership will be "enrolled" and count towards DPs.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 23, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> Ok - they may have meant to say that, but this is not how I read it.  I saw the word "EACH" and I read the post to mean that each property would be worth that range.  I agree that if its only 2800 to 3800 per property, that is reasonable.  But, I'm skeptical that all properties would count, especially because from my Vistana update, my ownership in MVCI will only count if I buy the new FlexOptions; so I sincerely doubt that old Vistana ownership will be "enrolled" and count towards DPs.



The answer is we don’t know what they will do - and the sales reps most probably don’t yet either. They are just saying what they think will convince you to buy something. There have been multiple long threads recently that have beat this to death. The only people that really know what is coming are senior folks at corporate. We are hoping they will divulge more info at their Investor Day at the New York Stock Exchange on Oct 4.

But they allowed legacy Marriott weeks to enroll for DPs 9 years ago, so they could easily do the same for Vistana. It would be the only way to get existing weeks in the system. But we’ll know when we know and always take sales with a huge grain of salt.

And to the other point, the OP did say they were told that EACH of their properties would get a range of point allocations, but then said, as you quoted, “...and that would equate to 25k to 35k total points based on the properties we own.” The use of the word “total” here clearly says to me that is all 9 weeks combined.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 23, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> The answer is we don’t know what they will do - and the sales reps most probably don’t yet either. They are just saying what they think will convince you to buy something. There have been multiple long threads recently that have beat this to death. The only people that really know what is coming are senior folks at corporate. We are hoping they will divulge more info at their Investor Day at the New York Stock Exchange on Oct 4.
> 
> But they allowed legacy Marriott weeks to enroll for DPs 9 years ago, so they could easily do the same for Vistana. It would be the only way to get existing weeks in the system. But we’ll know when we know and always take sales with a huge grain of salt.
> 
> And to the other point, the OP did say they were told that EACH of their properties would get a range of point allocations, but then said, as you quoted, “...and that would equate to 25k to 35k total points based on the properties we own.” The use of the word “total” here clearly says to me that is all 9 weeks combined.


You really want to criticize me because the OP was ambiguous?  LOL - you made an inference as to total, and I relied upon "each", but glad to know you can read minds....I've failed to perfect that talent.

As to the enrollment issue, what your comment completely ignores is that old Vistana owners are never going to be "enrolled" into the MVCI system like MVCI week owners were offered when MVCI rolled out the DP program.  The companies are different.  The old Vistana owners cannot be enrolled because their property is not part of the MVCI system.  MVCI and Vistana are SISTER corporations.  This was not a merger.  MVW is the parent corp.  Moreover, what you are ignoring is that Vistana offered to basically "enroll" my Vistana ownership into the FlexOptions program.  And then they offered to give me "phantom" FlexOptions for my MVCI ownership, thereby recognizing that I own in both, and those phantom FlexOptions would only count towards my "owner" level - ie the 3-5 star system, which, like the MVCI owner levels, gives a varying range of benefits, like extended banking of options, discounts, etc.  Those phantom options would not be able to be used to book any Vistana stay.  They were simply for identifying an owner "status".  So, on the flip side, it is possible that one's Vistana FlexOption status could potentially translate into phantom DPs, for purposes of identifying an owner level (ie reaching Chairman, or whatever), but standing alone, they will not be able to be used to book a stay with DPs. Thus, the companies are working to identify an "exchange rate" so that there can be some way to use the DPs and FlexOptions as currency to book directly and avoid the Interval platform.


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## teddyo333 (Aug 23, 2019)

@LeslieDet pardon me if my statement came across as "ambiguous". I try to be as clear as possible when posting because I appreciate the information that all Tuggers have given me over the years. And I would like to pay it forward. In regards to your statements pertaining to what the future program "will or will not be", I am interested in whatever documentation you have to backup your statements. I am not saying that you are right or wrong but I don't believe anything until it is in writing (I'm weird like that). I think it would be beneficial to everyone if we stick to what we know to be factual. It is ok to speculate/hope for a program that suits our individual needs. But in the end Marriott will do whatever is best for the business and until we have an official announcement we should try to have as constructive a conversation as possible.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 23, 2019)

teddyo333 said:


> @LeslieDet pardon me if my statement came across as "ambiguous". I try to be as clear as possible when posting because I appreciate the information that all Tuggers have given me over the years. And I would like to pay it forward. In regards to your statements pertaining to what the future program "will or will not be", I am interested in whatever documentation you have to backup your statements. I am not saying that you are right or wrong but I don't believe anything until it is in writing (I'm weird like that). I think it would be beneficial to everyone if we stick to what we know to be factual. It is ok to speculate/hope for a program that suits our individual needs. But in the end Marriott will do whatever is best for the business and until we have an official announcement we should try to have as constructive a conversation as possible.



I read your OP and I added a comment, because it seemed to me that there was a lot of misinformation being provided to you by the MVCI sales rep.  I was trying to help.  You don't have to apologize to me for being ambiguous, but it was very coincidental that the 25k-35k range was what was said to me as to what my MVCI's will be valued at from Vistana's perspective.  That is why I was speculating that perhaps the sales person was hearing numbers at a staff meeting and tossing them out to you.  That is all.  

As to what will happen in the future, I am simply evaluating the information as I receive it; part of my desire to attend the Vistana sales pitch was to ask from that side what was happening vis-a-vis the MVW acquisition of ILG.  There is a way to "reverse engineer" what they are attempting to do, when one understands the MVCI program well.  As I've said, I own 4 weeks plus DPs.  I've been to 3 MVCI updates this year, and always stay informed.  I understand the legal background of the DP program.  I am aware of the legal differences between a merger and an acquisition.  I'm not trying to push my view at all, I am simply commenting that if you pull together the FACTS, then you can start to draw the lines to connect how things work.  That is what I did for a living for the past 35 years.  That is all.  I have identified various facts that I am relying upon.  It is like putting together a jigsaw puzzle without the picture, you can still do it, you just have to figure out what fits together and makes sense.  

What "fits" together in this circumstance is that both MVCI and Vistana have acknowledged that in the acquisition, only unsold inventory was acquired.  The original Vistana resorts continue to exist, and the ownership in the USA is deeded to specific locations.  I do not know how ownership was structured by Vistana for the non-USA locations.  I know, as a Vistana owner in Hawaii, that I received a notice from my ownership association last year advising me that while there was a sale, everything was staying the same for my specific ownership and that Vistana was simply now being operated under the MVW umbrella, but I am to contact Vistana to deal with my ownership.  I was to continue to book my StarOptions as usual. Then this year (2019), I received a notice from my Vistana ownership association that one single building at Nanea had been sold to the Westin FlexOptions program, and therefore, the units that corresponded to that particular building were no longer owned and subject to booking with the StarOptions that I owned, but the remainder of the property remained as originally sold and available for booking.  Basically, they told me that they were now at 100% sale and occupancy for the old deeded ownership. So, that is one piece of the puzzle.

The next piece of the puzzle is that Vistana is now selling FlexOptions.  These were created under the same FL statute as the DP program.  The FlexOptions program was formed 1/4/18.  That is the ONLY thing that Vistana is selling now (similar to what MVCI did when the DP program was created).  If you understand the FL law for these land trusts, in order to be able to legally sell the FlexOptions (ie points), the FlexOption program must have a deeded ownership in real estate.  The deeded ownership that exists is what was the "unsold" inventory at the time of the MVW acquisition.  The FlexOptions program now has what they refer to as 8 "home" locations where the FlexOptions can book any of those 8 home locations exclusively at months 9-12, just like the old Vistana program allows owners at the deeded location to exclusively book their home resort months 9-12, and then at month 8, the entire system is opened up for booking with the StarOptions.  So, the FlexOptions program having 8 "home" resorts, including one single building at Nanea, is yet another fact that is put into the puzzle.  This itself confirms that the unsold inventory was transferred into the points based ownership (just like what happened when the DP system was formed in 2010).  Those 8 home resorts in the FlexOptions program are all USA based.  

Under the FL land trust statutes, ownership is not some mythical creature.  There are specific locations owned, that directly relate to the number of points that can be sold.  The quantity available for sale cannot be increased absent additional properties being added to the specific land trust.  Just like how the DP system works.  That is factual. Moreover, the deeds recorded for point ownership are real.  It is not something that can simply be changed because MVW decides to change the program.  It is real estate ownership.  To alter or disband the points program is not something that is practical or realistic.  It is not like a stock or mutual fund where the entity can force a redemption and go "private" by a controlling vote of the board.  

More importantly, MVW cannot force anyone to sell their real estate ownership.  Recall, prior to DPs, all USA based weeks that were sold by MVCI were deeded. The same is true with the Vistana ownership.  The timeshare ownership interests in the USA based Vistana/Westin properties is reflected by a deed recorded in the county in which the timeshare is located.  Neither MVC or ILG can force the individual owners to sell their week back.  That is a legal fact.  But what ILG can do is try and induce those deeded owners to sell their ownership back to ILG/Vistana by offering to credit that owner their full purchase price if they agree to purchase into the FlexOptions program (that is factual, that is the offer I received). What does that accomplish?  It reduces the individual deeded ownership and transfers that week equivalent into the FlexOptions program. 

Then, I factor in my experiences with the 3 MVCI owner updates I attended this year and the one Vistana update.  It was pitched that there would be additional properties available, so buy DPs now, but no one could explain how the DPs would work at these new properties.  It was pitched that MVW acquired Interval and Westin, so there would be so much more inventory, but when I asked why, on the Interval platform, a MVCI week deposit could not trade into a Westin location "free", like you can into other MVCI locations, it was admitted that they are separate companies and thus Interval will still charge a fee (and this is from my Interval DP based account, where MVCI to MVCI trades are "free"). 

The acquisition documents clearly establish that MVW is the parent corp of MVCI and ILG.  The Vistana sales folks state that they now are employed under the "Marriott" umbrella, since MVW owns ILG.  There has been published reports for investors that MVW is exploring a "cross-use" of the various timeshare brands under the MVW umbrella.  

If there is going to be a cross-use, it makes sense that MVW is working to develop an "exchange" rate between the various brands.  That will add value to all brands, if MVW can expand the accessible locations of the vacation destinations presently being booked by each brand by creating its own "currency". Thus, the sales folks for both brands are pitching that at some point in the near future there will be access between the brands.  I do not believe that is just a BS pitch.  I do believe that it what the sales managers are being told by corporate.  That is why the sales folks are pitching buy now, because: 1) the cost to buy points (whether DPs or FlexOptions) will go up, and 2) buy now and lock in your owner level (MVCI - Select, Executive, Presidential, Chairman; or Vistana 3, 4 or 5 Star) because once the cross-brands are accessible to all sides, you'll have to be at a high owner level in order to get that benefit.  I do not believe that the sales folks come up with that idea on their own, especiallly because the pitch is consistent among brands. Now, I don't know what that exchange rate will be, but I do believe that the concept has definitely been batted around otherwise the sale staff for both MVCI and Vistana would not be using a virtually identical pitch.  

So, when I see folks saying that they are going to wait until the programs are merged, I look at the facts and say, that would be a very difficult, if not impossible process, especially given that the programs are running on parallel tracks.  Do I believe that there will be some ability to exchange between them? Yes I do.  Do I believe that the old Vistana deeded ownership will be enrolled into the DP system?  Nope.  Just like I do not believe that the unenrolled MVCI week ownership will be able to access the Vistana/Westin properties (outside of Interval).  I believe that it will be quite possible that if enrollment is offered on the Vistana side, old Vistana ownership may be brought into the FlexOptions program, which then may be used as a currency to convert into DPs.  Just like I believe DPs will be a currency that can be converted into FlexOptions. But I do not believe that there will be only one "universal" currency.

Hope that helps you understand where I am coming from.  I, also, look forward to the investor statement in October.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 23, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I read your OP and I added a comment, because it seemed to me that there was a lot of misinformation being provided to you by the MVCI sales rep.  I was trying to help.  You don't have to apologize to me for being ambiguous, but it was very coincidental that the 25k-35k range was what was said to me as to what my MVCI's will be valued at from Vistana's perspective.  That is why I was speculating that perhaps the sales person was hearing numbers at a staff meeting and tossing them out to you.  That is all.
> 
> As to what will happen in the future, I am simply evaluating the information as I receive it; part of my desire to attend the Vistana sales pitch was to ask from that side what was happening vis-a-vis the MVW acquisition of ILG.  There is a way to "reverse engineer" what they are attempting to do, when one understands the MVCI program well.  As I've said, I own 4 weeks plus DPs.  I've been to 3 MVCI updates this year, and always stay informed.  I understand the legal background of the DP program.  I am aware of the legal differences between a merger and an acquisition.  I'm not trying to push my view at all, I am simply commenting that if you pull together the FACTS, then you can start to draw the lines to connect how things work.  That is what I did for a living for the past 35 years.  That is all.  I have identified various facts that I am relying upon.  It is like putting together a jigsaw puzzle without the picture, you can still do it, you just have to figure out what fits together and makes sense.
> 
> ...



But when all is said and done...we don’t know. No one here who, like you, understands the systems, has suggested the systems will be merged. Most of the speculation has centered on what the cross-program exchange option might look like. Sales has offered hints, but we don’t know where their facts stop and their spin begins. As long as we keep that last point in the forefront we will be fine. Hopefully the Investor Day will offer more info.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 23, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> ... As to the enrollment issue, what your comment completely ignores is that old Vistana owners are never going to be "enrolled" into the MVCI system like MVCI week owners were offered when MVCI rolled out the DP program.  The companies are different.  The old Vistana owners cannot be enrolled because their property is not part of the MVCI system.  MVCI and Vistana are SISTER corporations.  This was not a merger. ...



I don't think anybody here doesn't understand that the Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt timeshare companies are still completely unrelated companies despite all of them coming under the Marriott Vacation Worldwide umbrella.

I do think, though, that you're misunderstanding what "enrollment" meant for Marriott Weeks when the Marriott Destination Club was rolled out. Weeks Owners who chose to enroll their Weeks did not give up any of the existing usage/ownership rights of their Weeks, they didn't permanently exchange them for an allotment of Destination Club Points. Enrollment does not result in a material change to the Weeks. It simply means that in addition to every other usage option, subject to a one-time Enrollment Fee and annual Club Dues fees, eligible Weeks can be exchanged on an annual basis for an allotment of DC Points which can be used for (among other options) exchanging via the Destination Club Exchange Company. 

When the DC was introduced the legal documents were immediately made available. Reading the docs particular to the DC Exchange Company, it was immediately apparent that it could in fact act as a stand-alone exchange company should MVW choose to allow others to participate. It doesn't appear that there are any legal impediments in the set-up of the DC Exchange Company that would prevent MVW from allowing Vistana, Hyatt or any other timeshare intervals to become participants. It would entail MVW establishing the DC Points allotment amounts for any and every different Vistana/Hyatt/whatever interval that would be offered enrollment, but with the Marriott Weeks amounts already established it'd be fairly easy for MVW to follow similar patterns for any others newly brought onboard. Marriott Weeks owners who enrolled signed legal Enrollment Agreements, and, paid a one-time Enrollment Fee and recurring annual DC Club Dues fees. Again, those legal docs could be the basic template that MVW begins with, adjusting specifics for other-branded timeshares, and the fees are easily copied.

None of us knows what sort of integration will eventually happen but the most difficult would be a total integration of all Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt timeshares into a single product that's sold at every site and works the same for everyone, which is a highly doubtful outcome that I don't think anyone is expecting. The easiest, IMO, short of absolutely no integration at all, would be each system maintaining its brands and deeded usage options separately while at the same time, allowing owners from each system to enroll eligible intervals in the Destination Club Exchange Company for access to "internal" exchanges across all brands that come under the MVW umbrella. That's still my guess as to what will happen, but I've certainly been wrong before.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 24, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> I don't think anybody here doesn't understand that the Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt timeshare companies are still completely unrelated companies despite all of them coming under the Marriott Vacation Worldwide umbrella.
> 
> I do think, though, that you're misunderstanding what "enrollment" meant for Marriott Weeks when the Marriott Destination Club was rolled out. Weeks Owners who chose to enroll their Weeks did not give up any of the existing usage/ownership rights of their Weeks, they didn't permanently exchange them for an allotment of Destination Club Points. Enrollment does not result in a material change to the Weeks. It simply means that in addition to every other usage option, subject to a one-time Enrollment Fee and annual Club Dues fees, eligible Weeks can be exchanged on an annual basis for an allotment of DC Points which can be used for (among other options) exchanging via the Destination Club Exchange Company.
> 
> ...



I understand exactly what the term "enrollment" means - indeed, I own a MVCI week that is enrolled in the DP program (at no cost); and I also own weeks that are not enrolled.  One of the reasons I believe that MVCI is not going to offer "enrollment" into DPs to original Vistana/Westin owners is because that is the pitch that Vistana is currently making to the owners via the FlexOptions program.  It is not logical to have Vistana pitching to the pre-acquisition Vistana owners to join the FlexOptions program, if the long term plan is to offer "enrollment" via the MVCI DP system.  While I'm not privy to the agreements between MVCI and ILG, there is still name brand separation that is of interest to MVW.  And, recall, the DP system and the value of owned weeks when enrolled, was determined within the DP system.  The bookings in the DP system are all designated points, those do not change.  The value assigned to an enrolled week doesn't change. It is closed.  Any point changes made to particular inventory of a DP resort is a zero sum game absent additional (new) inventory acquired. The Vistana properties do not have equivalent DP points, they have StarOptions.  That is why, IMO, MVW is working on an exchange rate or a conversion rate that will allow DPs to be converted into FlexOptions and vice versa.  An old Vistana property isn't going to be valued based upon DPs, it will be valued based upon FlexOptions.


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## tshd (Aug 24, 2019)

My personal bias is that I would hope it would be a "buy-in" by trading a deed for a credit toward FlexOptions as LeslieDet suggests, but I don't see what would prevent MVW (sorry if I get the acronyms wrong) from offering "enrollment" to Starwood/Vistana owners to get an initial number of units in as a selling point for new DP and FlexOptions sales (just like they did initially with DP) by igniting interest for people wanting to try the "new" resorts.  Since enrolled weeks aren't permanently transferred into the trust, the week is just transferred in yearly as an election in exchange for points , nothing in the legal ownership of the week has changed.  It seems pretty clear that there will need to be a conversion ratio, since the point values in each system are vastly different.  The fact that a salesperson is trying to get someone to exchange a deed for points is pretty much what the salespeople have been doing since the industry moved from weeks to points, but I don't think it indicates whether or not an offer of enrollment is forthcoming or not.  As I said before, I wouldn't trust a salesperson to say, don't buy now because a change is imminent. I'm still going to keep my fingers crossed that enrollment is for a limited number of weeks and with the purchase of points just like Marriott is offering to current Marriott owners with unenrolled weeks.  I'm not opposed to change, I'd just prefer it be gradual, for my own selfish reasons,plus I hate purchasing something and finding out the very next day that it's 50% off.


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## jabberwocky (Aug 24, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I completely understand that it was a MVCI sales pitch.  Of course, the sales staff isn't selling FlexOptions for Vistana.  But the pitch that their Vistana properties will be worth 25k-35k points in the MVCI system is most likely purely BS.  I was letting the OP know that from the Vistana side, they are saying that MVCI ownership will translate into between 25k-35k FlexOptions (kind of like if there was a program "enrollment" of owned weeks), but what I also was told is that Vistana will only give these courtesy FlexOption "phantom" credits for a limited number of MVCI properties.  I think the max was 3, it could have been less.  But the Vistana properties are not going to come into the MVCI system at between 25k-35k each in DPs.  That just isn't the values that prime MVCI weeks generate, unless it's a Ritz Carlton Aspen fractional ownership, and then that, when enrolled, is something like 25k DPs.
> ...
> BTW -  With FlexOptions, there are 8 'home' resorts, and 15 other Vistana sites that are then available to book starting at month 8.  Again, they were pitching sales from Vistana's side, and to get my FlexOptions now, and then I'd be able to get special "phantom" FlexOptions based upon my MVCI ownership (capped) that would be counted towards my Vistana "star" level - whether 3, 4 or 5.



Your posting made me think of the classic Guide to 5* thread by SDKath over in the Vistana forum. Post #102 is the most relevant I think and would correspond to your "max 3"

[2008] SDKath's guide to 5* platinum [merged] 

 I think you might be misunderstanding the phantom options - these are not based upon the point/market value of your current Marriott weeks - they are simply an amount that Vistana would gift to you to get you to the next star level if you are slightly short.  As you point out they could not be used for booking in the system or anything else.  Vistana would give these to you regardless of whether your other timeshare was Marriott, DVC, HGVC or Four Seasons.  It is not related to the value of your timeshare in any way.

Now if the question is "How many StarOptions would my 2 BR MOC unit theoretically be worth" you probably would have received a different answer (my guess would be 148,100).  This would be the mirror question to what the OP was stating (at least how I interpreted it) of how many DP would the Vistana weeks be worth if they were in MVCI.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 24, 2019)

jabberwocky said:


> Your posting made me think of the classic Guide to 5* thread by SDKath over in the Vistana forum. Post #102 is the most relevant I think and would correspond to your "max 3"
> 
> [2008] SDKath's guide to 5* platinum [merged]
> 
> ...



I'm not familiar with that feed, and I have only recently started looking at the Marriott forum here because it was referenced in another group I belong to.  I'm not saying that the phantom options are supposed to reflect the "value" of my MVCI ownership, indeed, they did not care whether I owned a 1 bedroom or a 2 bedroom and did not care where, that is simply to give me a boost to reach the Vistana "star" levels that they are pitching.  Which is why there is a cap on the number of properties that will receive the "courtesy" or "phantom" options for purposes of improving my owner level status.   Of course there is a recognition of a sister brand, just as there is a big sales pitch that my existing StarOptions can be exchanged into BonVoy points, that is just cross selling.  It's a courtesy.  I disagree though that there would be the same courtesy credit if I owned a competitor like Disney.  

I really don't envision a manner in which an MVCI owned week is going to be assigned a given amount of FlexOptions, just as I do not see that my Vistana week is ever going to be assigned DPs.  Rather, there will be an exchange rate.  I do believe (and have referred to DPs like this for years) that they DPs and now the FlexOptions are basically "Marriott" money.  MVW is trying to identify the exchange rate, just like there is an exchange rate between USD and euros.  It is just that the exchange rate between DPs and FlexOptions will be fixed, and not subject to change, absent a major asset increase (adding additional properties) by one of the brands.  There will still be a path required to go from MVCI to Vistana and steps taken, it will just be without needing to also go to Interval like is the current process, rather, there will be a formula, like (hypothetically) 1 DP = 50 FlexOptions, and there may very well be some other transaction cost to exchange DPs into FlexOptions and vice versa.  I also believe that the old Vistana ownership will not automatically qualify for the FlexOptions, and that folks on the Vistana side are going to have to buy FlexOptions in order to "enroll" their original Vistana ownership and then be able to use their FlexOptions to exchange into DPs.  And on the MVCI side, we already have the established DP program and enrollment rules, and we know that unenrolled weeks cannot elect DPs and cannot be counted towards the owner level that is the DP program.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 25, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> One of the reasons I believe that MVCI is not going to offer "enrollment" into DPs to original Vistana/Westin owners is because that is the pitch that Vistana is currently making to the owners via the FlexOptions program.  It is not logical to have Vistana pitching to the pre-acquisition Vistana owners to join the FlexOptions program, if the long term plan is to offer "enrollment" via the MVCI DP system.



That is sound logic, just looking at Vistana in isolation. But we have had several TUGgers report that Marriott sales reps are telling Vistana owners that enrollment options WILL be offered to legacy Vistana weeks. So, I'm not sure why the Vistana reps should be trusted any more than the MVC reps. In my opinion, they both are probably just spinning the uncertainty as best they can to try to sell what they can. They still have to make a living, so they need to sell. 



> And, recall, the DP system and the value of owned weeks when enrolled, was determined within the DP system.  The bookings in the DP system are all designated points, those do not change.  The value assigned to an enrolled week doesn't change. It is closed.  Any point changes made to particular inventory of a DP resort is a zero sum game absent additional (new) inventory acquired. The Vistana properties do not have equivalent DP points, they have StarOptions.  That is why, IMO, MVW is working on an exchange rate or a conversion rate that will allow DPs to be converted into FlexOptions and vice versa.  An old Vistana property isn't going to be valued based upon DPs, it will be valued based upon FlexOptions.



Correct that the DP system is a zero-sum game, but adding Vistana weeks to the DP would have no effect on the existing MVC resorts or DP allocations. If MVC decided to offer Vistana weeks DC enrollment so they could play in any cross-brand exchange, all they would have to do is assign each Vistana resort/unit size/view etc. a DP point value, just like they did for the legacy MVC weeks many years ago. They do the same thing when they add new resorts like the recently-added San Francisco Pulse - they assign each interval a DP value. 

If they decide *not* to let legacy Vistana weeks play in any cross-brand exchange, then I agree with you that a FlexOptions to DP (and vice versa) exchange ratio would be a possibility, but then to be fair, they would have to also exclude legacy/enrolled MVC weeks and limit the cross-brand exchange to only DP Trust Points, not Enrolled/Elected points. So that scenario would mean DC Trust points could be converted to FlexOptions and FlexOptions to DC Trust points, but the weeks-based inventory from both sides couldn't play in any cross-brand exchange. Maybe if they were convinced that benefit would help them sell a lot more DC Trust points and FlexOptions, that could be the option they pursue, but it would mean a very limited exchange program since I'm pretty sure the bulk of both MVC and VSE are the legacy weeks-based Enrolled DPs and StarOptions. I suspect DC Trust points and FlexOptions represent relatively small portions of the total inventory. 

I'm not discounting your theory, but just pointing out that* all* of the rumors floating around are being based on statements from sales reps in sales presentations - so just consider the source.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 25, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> That is sound logic, just looking at Vistana in isolation. But we have had several TUGgers report that Marriott sales reps are telling Vistana owners that enrollment options WILL be offered to legacy Vistana weeks. So, I'm not sure why the Vistana reps should be trusted any more than the MVC reps. In my opinion, they both are probably just spinning the uncertainty as best they can to try to sell what they can. They still have to make a living, so they need to sell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just FYI - with the 3 MVCI updates I've attended this year, not one made any pitch whatsoever that my Vistana week would be subject to enrollment in the DP program.  And, the Vistana update only offered to address my existing Vistana ownership and then the phantom options credit from my MVCI ownership to get me to a higher FlexOptions Star level.  So, I've not experienced the same pitch that other owners have reported.  I am not discounting that it happened, I've just not experienced it.  

I'm not following your train of thought regarding enrolled MVCI weeks, when DPs are elected, from being excluded in any cross-brand exchange.  I do not understand what you mean when you say "to be fair" that the weeks based inventory from both sides couldn't play in any cross-brand exchange.  

No matter what, our discussion reflects that it is a complicated process.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 25, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I'm not following your train of thought regarding enrolled MVCI weeks, when DPs are elected, from being excluded in any cross-brand exchange.  I do not understand what you mean when you say "to be fair" that the weeks based inventory from both sides couldn't play in any cross-brand exchange.



It seemed you were saying that you didn’t believe that Vistana weeks would be able to be enrolled in the DC exchange and that only FlexOptions from the Vistana trust products would be allowed to exchange for DPs. So my feeling was if that happened they should exclude MVC weeks as well and just allow Trust points. Why let one side’s weeks play and not the other?


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## SueDonJ (Aug 25, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I understand exactly what the term "enrollment" means - indeed, I own a MVCI week that is enrolled in the DP program (at no cost); and I also own weeks that are not enrolled.  One of the reasons I believe that MVCI is not going to offer "enrollment" into DPs to original Vistana/Westin owners is because that is the pitch that Vistana is currently making to the owners via the FlexOptions program.  It is not logical to have Vistana pitching to the pre-acquisition Vistana owners to join the FlexOptions program, if the long term plan is to offer "enrollment" via the MVCI DP system.  While I'm not privy to the agreements between MVCI and ILG, there is still name brand separation that is of interest to MVW.  And, recall, the DP system and the value of owned weeks when enrolled, was determined within the DP system.  The bookings in the DP system are all designated points, those do not change.  The value assigned to an enrolled week doesn't change. It is closed.  Any point changes made to particular inventory of a DP resort is a zero sum game absent additional (new) inventory acquired. The Vistana properties do not have equivalent DP points, they have StarOptions.  That is why, IMO, MVW is working on an exchange rate or a conversion rate that will allow DPs to be converted into FlexOptions and vice versa.  An old Vistana property isn't going to be valued based upon DPs, it will be valued based upon FlexOptions.



Consider:

*Pre Eligibility for Marriott's Destination Club:*

- Marriott sold Weeks with home usage preference differentiated by resort/unit size/view type/seasonal calendars. Starwood-now-Vistana, the same.

- Eligible Marriott Weeks could be exchanged for Marriott-Rewards-now-Bonvoy Points. Eligible Vistana Weeks can be exchanged for SPG-StarPoints-now-Bonvoy Points.

- Marriott Weeks could be exchanged externally via II by virtue of an affiliation agreement between the two companies. Vistana Weeks, the same.

- Eligible Marriott Weeks in the Florida Club could be exchanged internally among the limited resorts participating in that program. Eligible Vistana Weeks in the Sheraton Flex club can be exchanged internally among the limited resorts participating in that program.

- Vistana has an internal exchange program with StarOptions as the currency with eligibility based on whether the purchase was direct or an external resale as well as whether "Mandatory" or "Voluntary" participation is dictated in the governing docs. Marriott did not offer a system-wide internal exchange program.

*Post Marriott's Destination Club:
*
Owners of Marriott Weeks can choose to enroll their existing Weeks into the DC subject to eligibility rules, one-time Enrollment Fees and ongoing annual Club Dues fees. Enrollment does not mean a permanent exchange of Weeks for DC Points and it does not remove/erase any of the other usage options. Enrolled Weeks can be used exactly the same as previous and in addition can be elected on an annual basis for DC Exchange Points, the value based on the specific resort/unit size/view type/season designations of each interval. DC Points can be used in the DC Exchange Company for internal exchanges to any other inventory that's allowed by Marriott Vacations Worldwide to play in the DC sandbox, and for whatever other options are offered in the Destination Club, subject to availability and eligibility rules.

I'm just not seeing why Marriott can't offer DC eligibility to any non-Marriott branded timeshares, especially the ones that now come under the Marriott Vacations Worldwide umbrella, similar to how it is offered to owners of Marriott Weeks. "Keep everything you have and here, we'll give you something more. Wouldn't you like to expand your internal exchange options to everything else that comes under our umbrella?!"

Sure, it's unwieldy, it comes with a cost and for MVW it's a logistical nightmare that must take into consideration the ownership/usage that's legally granted in the original deeds. But they've managed to do it with Marriott Weeks such that thousands of people are happily seeing the value of using the DC to enhance their ownerships, and the DC Exchange Company appeared from the start to have been deliberately set up in a manner that would facilitate exchanges among non-Marriott-branded timeshares almost as easily. So, what are the legal barriers that I'm just not seeing that might prohibit allowing Vistana/Hyatt to play in the DC sandbox?

I'll say again, I'm not talking about a total integration of Marriott, Vistana and/or Hyatt companies that will end up with one product sold under one brand across the spectrum resulting in massive changes to what's already been sold and what will be sold in the future. I couldn't even begin to try to figure out something on that scale, which I doubt could legally happen anyway! No, all I'm talking about is opening up participation in the Destination Club to every existing ownership that now comes under the MVW umbrella, based on eligibility rules and subject to fees, on a basis similar to how it's been made available to existing Marriott Weeks owners. As simply as possible, it'd be an invitation to participate in an MVW-only internal exchange company, or, gain access to whatever other options are available to DC Members. Why not?


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## dansimms (Aug 25, 2019)

I assume much of the unsold inventory is lower demand seasons , so I am not that intrigued by the cross usage.  If any of the other systems like Westin or Hyatt added something new, then you have more of my attention , because there is a chance that 100% of those could be added to a land trust .  I am also not incentivized to buy soon to avoid the price increases.  For 25 years they have gone up on the Marriott side at a moderate pace that I can deal with . Remember , when you add the points , you start adding to your maintenance fees sooner , rather than later .


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## JIMinNC (Aug 25, 2019)

dansimms said:


> I assume much of the unsold inventory is lower demand seasons , so I am not that intrigued by the cross usage.  If any of the other systems like Westin or Hyatt added something new, then you have more of my attention , because there is a chance that 100% of those could be added to a land trust .  I am also not incentivized to buy soon to avoid the price increases.  For 25 years they have gone up on the Marriott side at a moderate pace that I can deal with . Remember , when you add the points , you start adding to your maintenance fees sooner , rather than later .



That's why Marriott developed the enrollment concept for legacy weeks and developed the DC Exchange company - to provide a vehicle for the previously-sold high demand weeks to play in the DC Points program. Without that, the DC would have just been the unsold inventory in June 2010, plus any new resorts, plus any ROFR/foreclosure reacquisitions. Adding the option for legacy weeks owners to play in the DC serves to increase the number of attractive bookings in the DC Points system. That's why I think if they want to offer quality options in any cross-usage program, they will have to find a way to get legacy Vistana weeks to play. If they just want to offer some sizzle for sales to sell, without any steak to back it up, then they could do something that is Trust only.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 25, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> It seemed you were saying that you didn’t believe that Vistana weeks would be able to be enrolled in the DC exchange and that only FlexOptions from the Vistana trust products would be allowed to exchange for DPs. So my feeling was if that happened they should exclude MVC weeks as well and just allow Trust points. Why let one side’s weeks play and not the other?



You did not follow what I was saying regarding the differences.  Just like in the DP system, there are owned weeks that are not enrolled into the DP system and with those, owners have zero opportunity to elect DPs from those weeks. So that ownership would not generate any "currency" (i.e., DPs) that could be used to exchange into FlexOptions.  On the Vistana side, there is the same things - it is uniform.  Only the old StarOptions that were enrolled into the FlexOptions program would be able to be used to generate a currency (a FlexOption) that could then be used to exchange it into DPs.  So, the treatment from each side would be uniform.  Enrolled vs unenrolled weeks.  Only enrolled weeks (or whatever Vistana would choose as it's term to mean the same thing as it does on the MVCI side) could partiipate and be elected to receive the appropriate currency that would then be exchanged for purposes of cross brand booking.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 25, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> Consider:
> 
> *Pre Eligibility for Marriott's Destination Club:*
> 
> ...



I think the quick answer is that you are expecting there to be sharing among sister corporations.  Just because these separate stand alone corporations are under the MVW umbrella does not mean that they have to share.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 25, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> You did not follow what I was saying regarding the differences.  Just like in the DP system, there are owned weeks that are not enrolled into the DP system and with those, owners have zero opportunity to elect DPs from those weeks. So that ownership would not generate any "currency" (i.e., DPs) that could be used to exchange into FlexOptions.  On the Vistana side, there is the same things - it is uniform.  Only the old StarOptions that were enrolled into the FlexOptions program would be able to be used to generate a currency (a FlexOption) that could then be used to exchange it into DPs.  So, the treatment from each side would be uniform.  Enrolled vs unenrolled weeks.  Only enrolled weeks (or whatever Vistana would choose as it's term to mean the same thing as it does on the MVCI side) could partiipate and be elected to receive the appropriate currency that would then be exchanged for purposes of cross brand booking.



My understanding of Vistana from many posts by VSE owners is that when an owner exchanges a Vistana week for FlexOptions, they are essentially permanently giving up their week/deed and its StarOptions in exchange for a new ownership in one of the FlexOptions trusts (WestinFlex, SheratonFlex, Aventuras), so they essentially no longer own a week. They have permanently relinquished their week and now own the equivalent of DC Trust Points, just in a smaller trust. Only a small percentage of VSE owners have taken this option, so very little inventory of former owned weeks is in the Flex trusts right now.

In Marriott, enrolled owners still own their week and deed, and just have the *option* in any given year to convert their week to DPs and search for points bookings in the DC Exchange. They are using their week's point value in the DC Exchange, not converting their week to Trust Points. It's an option just like depositing to II or booking your home week. That's a very different situation, and many MVC owners have enrolled their weeks. MVC enrolled owners are not giving their week back to MVC and do not own Trust Points (the MVC equivalent of FlexOptions).

It has been reported over and over that Vistana sales reps are telling prospects that "the only way to access the Marriott inventory will be to buy FlexOptions." Since that is what they are selling, it makes sense they would try to convince prospects that is what the cross-exchange will look like. Marriott reps have long used the same general approach to try to sell Trust points, saying new benefits, etc. will only be available to Trust owners. So far, that has not been the case, despite MVC sales insisting it was going to happen. To me it just sounds like VSE is using the same playbook spin - "Tell Prospects You Must Buy Flex to get the New Shiny Thing".


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## LeslieDet (Aug 26, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> My understanding of Vistana from many posts by VSE owners is that when an owner exchanges a Vistana week for FlexOptions, they are essentially permanently giving up their week/deed and its StarOptions in exchange for a new ownership in one of the FlexOptions trusts (WestinFlex, SheratonFlex, Aventuras), so they essentially no longer own a week. They have permanently relinquished their week and now own the equivalent of DC Trust Points, just in a smaller trust. Only a small percentage of VSE owners have taken this option, so very little inventory of former owned weeks is in the Flex trusts right now.
> 
> In Marriott, enrolled owners still own their week and deed, and just have the *option* in any given year to convert their week to DPs and search for points bookings in the DC Exchange. They are using their week's point value in the DC Exchange, not converting their week to Trust Points. It's an option just like depositing to II or booking your home week. That's a very different situation, and many MVC owners have enrolled their weeks. MVC enrolled owners are not giving their week back to MVC and do not own Trust Points (the MVC equivalent of FlexOptions).
> 
> It has been reported over and over that Vistana sales reps are telling prospects that "the only way to access the Marriott inventory will be to buy FlexOptions." Since that is what they are selling, it makes sense they would try to convince prospects that is what the cross-exchange will look like. Marriott reps have long used the same general approach to try to sell Trust points, saying new benefits, etc. will only be available to Trust owners. So far, that has not been the case, despite MVC sales insisting it was going to happen. To me it just sounds like VSE is using the same playbook spin - "Tell Prospects You Must Buy Flex to get XXX New Thing".



I do not know all of the different structures that are being offered by Vistana regarding the ownership; I only know that I could have purchased FlexOptions directly, I could have used my existing Vistana deeded ownership to "pay" for buying FlexOptions (and have received 100% of my purchase price applied) and yes, I would have given up ownership in Hawaii and received points ownership in FL land trust.  Because I was not interested, I did not bother to go into detail on costs etc., but I could have also have kept my existing ownership and bought new FlexOptions.  I did not drill down into the specifics of how that would work, and I summarily dismissed it.  Now, in hindsight, I wish I'd have asked lots of questions about how to keep what I own in Vistana and also join the FlexOptions program by just buying points.  Oh well, some other time....


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## JIMinNC (Aug 26, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I do not know all of the different structures that are being offered by Vistana regarding the ownership; I only know that I could have purchased FlexOptions directly, I could have used my existing Vistana deeded ownership to "pay" for buying FlexOptions (and have received 100% of my purchase price applied) and yes, I would have given up ownership in Hawaii and received points ownership in FL land trust.  Because I was not interested, I did not bother to go into detail on costs etc., but I could have also have kept my existing ownership and bought new FlexOptions.  I did not drill down into the specifics of how that would work, and I summarily dismissed it.  Now, in hindsight, I wish I'd have asked lots of questions about how to keep what I own in Vistana and also join the FlexOptions program by just buying points.  Oh well, some other time....



Yes, exactly. In Vistana, FlexOptions are essentially the same as Trust Points in MVC - they just have three separate trusts instead of one. You can keep your deeded week with StarOptions and, if you choose, add to that by buying a batch of FlexOptions separately. This would be essentially the same scenario as an enrolled weeks owner in MVC buying a separate batch of Trust Points to add to the enrolled points they get from their week. Someone who only owned FlexOptions would be just like a Trust-only owner in MVC.

Vistana also allows their weeks owners to essentially trade-in their Vistana week to help pay for FlexOptions, but in this scenario, they come out of it with just FlexOptions, no more week. So after the trade-in they would be just like a Trust-only owner in MVC. All they would own are FlexOptions in one of the Flex trusts. So far, MVC has not tried this approach (trade-in) as a way to get MVC weeks owners to buy Trust points. It would not surprise me, however, if they tried it in the future as a different way to reacquire inventory and sell more expensive points.

All of the above was why I concluded that if your original theory was correct, and only FlexOptions would be able to access the cross-program exchange to book at MVC (meaning that only the Vistana Flex Trust points could play in the MVC sandbox), it would be consistent that they would also limit the cross-program sandbox to just MVC DC Trust Points. Conversely, if they decide to let MVC enrolled points play, it would make sense that they would come up with a point election schedule for every VSE resort, and allow those VSE owners who have StarOptions some way (either a one-time-fee or a purchase) to enroll their legacy Vistana week in the cross-program exchange.


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## pchung6 (Aug 26, 2019)

From my understanding, Flexoptions will become Staroptions at 8 months mark. Staroptions is the currency to book ALL Vistana resorts. Flex options only allow the owners to book their home resorts between 12-8 months. Flex home resorts can be either  one of Sheraton, Westin or Mexico resorts, not ALL. Only Staroptions can reserve at ANY resorts. Some of the comments above really don’t make sense at all, Flex can’t be the currency, it has to be Staroptions. What about Flex resale with no Staroptions? What about developer week owners that own Staroptions? It’s just like legacy Marriott week owners can select DC points.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 26, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I think the quick answer is that you are expecting there to be sharing among sister corporations.  Just because these separate stand alone corporations are under the MVW umbrella does not mean that they have to share.



It's not possible to "expect" anything because right up until the day MVW announces whatever, if any, integration they'll allow across all platforms under the umbrella, it's impossible to know what it will be. I'm just doing what everyone else is doing, speculating on what might be, based on what MVW offers to its Marriott owners as well as on vaguely-related comments being made not just by sales reps but by corporate officers during investment calls. And while it's certainly true that there's no requirement that everything under the MVW umbrella must integrate in some fashion, it would certainly be to MVW's advantage if it could monetize any- and everything it owns/manages to whatever extent is mutually-advantageous for itself, its existing owners and any future owners.

Allowing enrollment of existing sold Weeks at the time of the DC inception, in order to stock the DC Exchange Company with inventory that would make the new venture a success, did exactly that. But it's a two-way relationship that wouldn't work if owners didn't perceive a benefit from it and there are thousands of owners of enrolled Weeks who will tell you that they're very happy with the DC enhancements to their ownerships, many who were skeptical at the start and/or many who never intend to purchase DC Trust Points.

Right now, I'm speculating how/why MVW might open up opportunities to the owners who have recently come under their umbrella. It's not about whether I want Vistana/Hyatt inventory to be integrated into the DC Exchange Company (which I purposely haven't said if I want it or not) but instead about the ways it can be done. I think offering enrollment to the existing Weeks owners would be fairly simple but not being familiar with the Vistana system and seeing so much pushback against enrollment, I'm left wondering if/why it wouldn't be.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 26, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> From my understanding, Flexoptions will become Staroptions at 8 months mark. Staroptions is the currency to book ALL Vistana resorts. Flex options only allow the owners to book their home resorts between 12-8 months. Flex home resorts can be either  one of Sheraton, Westin or Mexico resorts, not ALL. Only Staroptions can reserve at ANY resorts. Some of the comments above really don’t make sense at all, Flex can’t be the currency, it has to be Staroptions. What about Flex resale with no Staroptions? What about developer week owners that own Staroptions? It’s just like legacy Marriott week owners can select DC points.



Thanks for the clarification. As I said above, I think the confusion is being generated by sales reps trying to take advantage of the confusion about what may or may not happen in a way that helps them sell what they are selling - be that FlexOptions or DC Trust points. They may or may not have hints about what is coming, but I think it is clear they are "spinning" the facts in a way to benefit their sales goals. We have been calling that Bountiful Speculation (BS).


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## pchung6 (Aug 26, 2019)

I just attended sales presentation from Vistana side. Sales doesn't know anything about the MVC and Vistana integration. He said no one knows what it will be yet, he heard about the rumor but nothing official, at least no one knows at this location in Nanea.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 27, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> I just attended sales presentation from Vistana side. Sales doesn't know anything about the MVC and Vistana integration. He said no one knows what it will be yet, he heard about the rumor but nothing official, at least no one knows at this location in Nanea.



My opinion is this is the most honest, straight answer. I think some of the sales rep comments being reported in this thread are from sales reps who are taking the rumors, treating them as facts, and trying to use that to spin things to sell Vistana Flex, MVC Trust points, etc. Same-old-same-old timeshare sales approach - say whatever you can reasonably justify in your mind as long as it helps you sell the prospect, even if it's not 100% factual. I suspect some rumors are probably floating around internally, and some reps are taking those rumors, running with them, and getting "creative" in how they try to use them.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> I just attended sales presentation from Vistana side. Sales doesn't know anything about the MVC and Vistana integration. He said no one knows what it will be yet, he heard about the rumor but nothing official, at least no one knows at this location in Nanea.



Do you own at Nanea?  I do.  Did you receive the email notification dated July 11, 2019, from Nanea that clearly stated: "The resort was recently added to the collection of villa resorts in the Westin Flex vacation program, which gives those Owners preferred access at eight Home Resorts instead of a single Home Resort...Only one building with a resort view has been registered to be sold as part of the Westin Flex collection of villa resorts."  

I'm shocked that the Nanea sales folks know nothing.  Clearly, one building from the Nanea location has been transferred to the FlexOptions program.  That was the "unsold" inventory at the time of the MVW acquisition.  That inventory is now available for booking by those folks who bought the FlexOptions (ie points) program at months 9-12.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Yes, exactly. In Vistana, FlexOptions are essentially the same as Trust Points in MVC - they just have three separate trusts instead of one. You can keep your deeded week with StarOptions and, if you choose, add to that by buying a batch of FlexOptions separately. This would be essentially the same scenario as an enrolled weeks owner in MVC buying a separate batch of Trust Points to add to the enrolled points they get from their week. Someone who only owned FlexOptions would be just like a Trust-only owner in MVC.
> 
> Vistana also allows their weeks owners to essentially trade-in their Vistana week to help pay for FlexOptions, but in this scenario, they come out of it with just FlexOptions, no more week. So after the trade-in they would be just like a Trust-only owner in MVC. All they would own are FlexOptions in one of the Flex trusts. So far, MVC has not tried this approach (trade-in) as a way to get MVC weeks owners to buy Trust points. It would not surprise me, however, if they tried it in the future as a different way to reacquire inventory and sell more expensive points.
> 
> All of the above was why I concluded that if your original theory was correct, and only FlexOptions would be able to access the cross-program exchange to book at MVC (meaning that only the Vistana Flex Trust points could play in the MVC sandbox), it would be consistent that they would also limit the cross-program sandbox to just MVC DC Trust Points. Conversely, if they decide to let MVC enrolled points play, it would make sense that they would come up with a point election schedule for every VSE resort, and allow those VSE owners who have StarOptions some way (either a one-time-fee or a purchase) to enroll their legacy Vistana week in the cross-program exchange.



This is where our theories clash - because there is the option to in effect, enroll, the original Westing purchase(s) via buying FlexOptions and adding that to your portfolio (just like enrolled week owners at MVCI can also own DPs directly, and they can be combined to book), that is why I believe that the currency will be FlexOptions to DPs and vice versa; the original StarOptions will not be available to be used as currency, just like unenrolled MVCI weeks cannot be turned into DPs (and thus won't be available to be used as any "currency").  But so long as Vistana is pitching the FlexOptions and allowing folks to enroll their existing StarOptions into the program (without having to give up the deed), then those "enrolled" options should be available.  That is why I doubt that MVCI will tell enrolled weeks owners that if they elect DPs they cannot use them as currency to exchange into Vistana.  I know that at this point in time, points are points in the MVCI system, with the only exception being that elected DPs cannot thereafter be used to change into BonVoy points (because weeks owners have to do that directly, give up their week in exchange for BonVoy points, and not first elect DPs to thereafter then try and get BonVoy).

Hope that makes my comments clear.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> From my understanding, Flexoptions will become Staroptions at 8 months mark. Staroptions is the currency to book ALL Vistana resorts. Flex options only allow the owners to book their home resorts between 12-8 months. Flex home resorts can be either  one of Sheraton, Westin or Mexico resorts, not ALL. Only Staroptions can reserve at ANY resorts. Some of the comments above really don’t make sense at all, Flex can’t be the currency, it has to be Staroptions. What about Flex resale with no Staroptions? What about developer week owners that own Staroptions? It’s just like legacy Marriott week owners can select DC points.



No, FlexOptions do not magically convert into  StarOptions at month 8, rather, that same concept that applies to original Vistana purchasers (ie booking your "home" resort exclusively at months 9-12 and then being able to book any inventory months 1-8) is an option available to FlexOption owners also.  It is not that the FlexOptions magically change into something, it is just that they have the same benefit as StarOptions.  And, BTW, as of August 2019, the 8 "home" resorts are:  Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas, Kaanapali North, Nanea (only one building), Princeville, Mission Hills Villas, Desert Willow Villas, Riverfront Mountain Villas and Kierland Villas.  At month 8, there are currently 23 resorts that can be booked (including the origial 8 "home" ones), and thus the additional 15 include various Mexico properties, Steamboat, Atlantis, USVI, etc. (this is not a full list).

And the originally "developer" purchased Vistana StarOptions will need to be "enrolled" (my term, not theirs) by purchasing FlexOptions.  They will not be treated like "legacy" week owners who were able to enroll (with no cost) into the DP program.


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## pchung6 (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> No, FlexOptions do not magically convert into  StarOptions at month 8, rather, that same concept that applies to original Vistana purchasers (ie booking your "home" resort exclusively at months 9-12 and then being able to book any inventory months 1-8) is an option available to FlexOption owners also.  It is not that the FlexOptions magically change into something, it is just that they have the same benefit as StarOptions.  And, BTW, as of August 2019, the 8 "home" resorts are:  Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas, Kaanapali North, Nanea (only one building), Princeville, Mission Hills Villas, Desert Willow Villas, Riverfront Mountain Villas and Kierland Villas.  At month 8, there are currently 23 resorts that can be booked (including the origial 8 "home" ones), and thus the additional 15 include various Mexico properties, Steamboat, Atlantis, USVI, etc. (this is not a full list).
> 
> And the originally "developer" purchased Vistana StarOptions will need to be "enrolled" (my term, not theirs) by purchasing FlexOptions.  They will not be treated like "legacy" week owners who were able to enroll (with no cost) into the DP program.



Unfortunately you are so wrong. You need Staroptions to book other resorts not in your Flex inside 8 months. If you buy Flex resale, you don’t have the ability to use Staroptions, you only have Flexoptions to book few resorts. I hope you didn’t buy any Flex points based on just this speculation.


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## pchung6 (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> Do you own at Nanea?  I do.  Did you receive the email notification dated July 11, 2019, from Nanea that clearly stated: "The resort was recently added to the collection of villa resorts in the Westin Flex vacation program, which gives those Owners preferred access at eight Home Resorts instead of a single Home Resort...Only one building with a resort view has been registered to be sold as part of the Westin Flex collection of villa resorts."
> 
> I'm shocked that the Nanea sales folks know nothing.  Clearly, one building from the Nanea location has been transferred to the FlexOptions program.  That was the "unsold" inventory at the time of the MVW acquisition.  That inventory is now available for booking by those folks who bought the FlexOptions (ie points) program at months 9-12.



Only few units in Nanea were added to Westin Flex, not the all the 8 buildings. I was told by sales rep he doesn’t know anything about MVC and Vistana integration, he only heard rumors. Everything we know so far is all speculations, nothing is official included few secret documents people talked earlier.

Btw I do not own Nanea, but I’m currently sitting on the lanai on 5th floor in one of the Nanea building facing straight to the ocean and I own OF unit just 100 feets south. Also has a nice OV unit in the other island called Ko Olina under MVC.


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## controller1 (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> No, FlexOptions do not magically convert into  StarOptions at month 8, rather, that same concept that applies to original Vistana purchasers (ie booking your "home" resort exclusively at months 9-12 and then being able to book any inventory months 1-8) is an option available to FlexOption owners also.  It is not that the FlexOptions magically change into something, it is just that they have the same benefit as StarOptions.  And, BTW, as of August 2019, the 8 "home" resorts are:  Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas, Kaanapali North, Nanea (only one building), Princeville, Mission Hills Villas, Desert Willow Villas, Riverfront Mountain Villas and Kierland Villas.  At month 8, there are currently 23 resorts that can be booked (including the origial 8 "home" ones), and thus the additional 15 include various Mexico properties, Steamboat, Atlantis, USVI, etc. (this is not a full list).
> 
> And the originally "developer" purchased Vistana StarOptions will need to be "enrolled" (my term, not theirs) by purchasing FlexOptions.  They will not be treated like "legacy" week owners who were able to enroll (with no cost) into the DP program.



Your use of the term Vistana FlexOptions is really confusing.  There is no such program as Vistana FlexOptions.

From your post quoted above it is clear you are referring to the Westin Flex program.  Using incorrect titles just provides confusion.  There are currently four flex programs within Vistana.

(1) Sheraton Flex:

Sheraton Vistana Villages
Sheraton Vistana Resort
Sheraton Broadway Plantation
Sheraton Desert Oasis
Sheraton Steamboat Resort Villas
Vistana Beach Club
Sheraton Mountain Vista
Sheraton Lakeside Terrace Villas at Mountain Vista
(2) Westin Flex:

The Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas
The Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas North
The Westin Nanea Ocean Villas
The Westin Princeville Ocean Resort Villas
The Westin Desert Willow Villas, Palm Desert
The Westin Mission Hills Resort Villas, Palm Springs
The Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas
The Westin Kierland Villas
(3) Westin Aventuras:

The Westin Los Cabos Resort Villas & Spa
The Westin Lagunamar Ocean Resort
(4) Westin Nanea Flex


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## SueDonJ (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> ... They will not be treated like "legacy" week owners who were able to enroll (with no cost) into the DP program.



Assuming "DP" is Destination Points and you're talking about the Marriott process of eligible owned Weeks being allowed to enroll in the Destination Club, there is a cost in the form of a one-time Enrollment Fee which is currently $2,395. The Enrollment Fee is waived in certain situations, such as when DC Trust Points are purchased simultaneous with the enrollment of already-owned eligible Weeks or a direct-resale purchase of Weeks. There are also occasional sales incentives that entail waivers of the Enrollment Fee for eligible Weeks.

This is why there was so much pushback by Marriott owners to another participation fee when the discussion started about MVW possibly integrating Vistana/Hyatt with Marriott in some sort of internal exchange system, especially among those who think the Destination Club Exchange Company could be that vehicle. The word "legacy" is used by TUGgers more to differentiate the Marriott Weeks product that was sold prior to the DC inception from the Points product which has been available since, less as a differential between Weeks that are and are not eligible for DC enrollment. The overwhelming majority of Marriott Weeks owners who enrolled their eligible "legacy" Weeks did, in fact, pay a one-time Enrollment Fee (while far fewer satisfied the terms for a waiver) for membership in the DC Exchange Company.


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## CPNY (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I do not know all of the different structures that are being offered by Vistana regarding the ownership; I only know that I could have purchased FlexOptions directly, I could have used my existing Vistana deeded ownership to "pay" for buying FlexOptions (and have received 100% of my purchase price applied) and yes, I would have given up ownership in Hawaii and received points ownership in FL land trust.  Because I was not interested, I did not bother to go into detail on costs etc., but I could have also have kept my existing ownership and bought new FlexOptions.  I did not drill down into the specifics of how that would work, and I summarily dismissed it.  Now, in hindsight, I wish I'd have asked lots of questions about how to keep what I own in Vistana and also join the FlexOptions program by just buying points.  Oh well, some other time....


You did the right thing by keeping your Hawaii week and not buying into the new flex plan. They are offering equity for your Hawaii week to get the availability. Then you’re buying back in with money out of pocket. Buying into the flex plan has no affect on whether or not you can play in a joint program because nothing is set yet. They are spewing forged facts aka known as BS.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> This is where our theories clash - because there is the option to in effect, enroll, the original Westing purchase(s) via buying FlexOptions and adding that to your portfolio (just like enrolled week owners at MVCI can also own DPs directly, and they can be combined to book), that is why I believe that the currency will be FlexOptions to DPs and vice versa; the original StarOptions will not be available to be used as currency, just like unenrolled MVCI weeks cannot be turned into DPs (and thus won't be available to be used as any "currency").  But so long as Vistana is pitching the FlexOptions and allowing folks to enroll their existing StarOptions into the program (without having to give up the deed), then those "enrolled" options should be available.  That is why I doubt that MVCI will tell enrolled weeks owners that if they elect DPs they cannot use them as currency to exchange into Vistana.  I know that at this point in time, points are points in the MVCI system, with the only exception being that elected DPs cannot thereafter be used to change into BonVoy points (because weeks owners have to do that directly, give up their week in exchange for BonVoy points, and not first elect DPs to thereafter then try and get BonVoy).
> 
> Hope that makes my comments clear.



I think the problem is that we each have different understandings of the relationship between the Flex programs and StarOptions. My understanding is more in line with that voiced by @pchung6 and @controller1. 
1) Owners in the Flex programs have HomeOptions that can be used to book within their Flex resort groups from 12-8 months.
2) At the 8 month point, those Home Options can be used to book in the VSN network. Whether they officially convert to StarOptions or not seems to be semantics, the important thing is they can be used just like all other StarOptions to book in VSN.

This is from the FAQ in the Stickies in the Vistana Forum:

*What are the differences between HomeOptions and StarOptions?*

Frequently, people overcomplicate their understanding of HomeOptions by thinking of them as completely distinct from StarOptions. However, it is easiest to understand HomeOptions by thinking of them simply as a special type of StarOption, with the following single difference:
_HomeOptions can also be used to make home resort reservations at Sheraton Flex resorts during the home resort preference period._
Note that the home resort preference period is 12 months to 8 months prior to arrival. For resale Sheraton Flex ownerships which have not been requalified, an owner can continue making home resort reservations 8 months or less prior to arrival. For other Sheraton Flex ownerships, reservations made 8 months or less prior to arrival would be SVN reservations. 

Also the statement that just buying a Flex interest somehow "enrolls" someone's pre-existing week-based StarOptions into some program does not seem to accurately represent how I understand the system works. Yes, you can combine Flex points (HomeOptions, Flex Options, whatever you want to call them) with week-based StarOptions to book, just like an MVC owner that has an enrolled Destination Points can combine them with any Trust points they own, but owning in a Flex program doesn't "supercharge" your "legacy" StarOptions. You just have HomeOptions from your Flex program and also StarOptions from your week deed and can combine them to book in VSN at 8 months. In MVC it works exactly the same way - an owner can more-or-less seamlessly combine their Trust points and enrolled points to book reservations. 

Maybe some of the expert Vistana owners like @pchung6, @CPNY, and @controller1 can chime and clarify. What you are saying sounds a lot like what MVC sales reps have, for years, been trying to sell MVC enrolled owners on the false impression that buying MVC DC Trust points somehow "supercharges" enrolled DC Points. We've seen no evidence that they do, so maybe the Vistana sales reps you met with are adopting the MVC sales technique of "supercharged" points.

I think it could work in either of at least two ways:

1) Any cross-program exchange could be open only to Vistana Flex points or MVC Trust points (the products they are actively selling).
2) The cross-exchange could be opened to both Vistana StarOptions (both from Flex and from deeded weeks) and both Trust and enrolled MVC DC Points, but some sort of qualification will be required - either a one-time fee or possibly a new purchase of Flex or DC Trust points.

If I were betting, I would bet on Option #2, but if they want to try to use cross-program booking as an incentive to sell VSN Flex and MVC Trust points, they might choose Option #1.

We will eventually find out.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> Do you own at Nanea?  I do.  Did you receive the email notification dated July 11, 2019, from Nanea that clearly stated: "The resort was recently added to the collection of villa resorts in the Westin Flex vacation program, which gives those Owners preferred access at eight Home Resorts instead of a single Home Resort...Only one building with a resort view has been registered to be sold as part of the Westin Flex collection of villa resorts."
> 
> I'm shocked that the Nanea sales folks know nothing.  Clearly, one building from the Nanea location has been transferred to the FlexOptions program.  That was the "unsold" inventory at the time of the MVW acquisition.  That inventory is now available for booking by those folks who bought the FlexOptions (ie points) program at months 9-12.



But the inclusion of part of Nanea into Westin Flex was not what @pchung6 said sales said they knew nothing about. He said they knew nothing about a combined Westin/Sheraton/Marriott exchange program. The combination of Nanea into Westin Flex is a totally different thing.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> Unfortunately you are so wrong. You need Staroptions to book other resorts not in your Flex inside 8 months. If you buy Flex resale, you don’t have the ability to use Staroptions, you only have Flexoptions to book few resorts. I hope you didn’t buy any Flex points based on just this speculation.



I have no clue why you are on a tangent about buying FlexOptions "resale".  I haven't talked at all about resale in the FlexOptions arena, and do not even know if that is possible.  What I know is that the FlexOptions program started on 1/4/18; they are being sold now.  If you buy FlexOptions from Vistana (whether or not you use your existing Vistana ownership as a "payment" by turning in your old deed in exchange for full credit against your purchase of FlexOptions), I guarantee you that those FlexOptions can indeed be used to book at the 23 resorts identified at months 1-8 (which include the existing 8 "home" resorts plus 15 more).


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> Only few units in Nanea were added to Westin Flex, not the all the 8 buildings. I was told by sales rep he doesn’t know anything about MVC and Vistana integration, he only heard rumors. Everything we know so far is all speculations, nothing is official included few secret documents people talked earlier.
> 
> Btw I do not own Nanea, but I’m currently sitting on the lanai on 5th floor in one of the Nanea building facing straight to the ocean and I own OF unit just 100 feets south. Also has a nice OV unit in the other island called Ko Olina under MVC.



I'm not here to argue with you, but I really do not understand why you cannot read what I wrote, and where I quoted the email from Nanea.  Only ONE building was sold to the Westin Flex" program.  That is NOT my terminology, that is a direct quote from the email I received from Nanea.  So, it is more than "only a few units".  And I have no clue why you would even comment about all 8 buildings.  But whatever.  Facts.  I'm talking factual information.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> Assuming "DP" is Destination Points and you're talking about the Marriott process of eligible owned Weeks being allowed to enroll in the Destination Club, there is a cost in the form of a one-time Enrollment Fee which is currently $2,395. The Enrollment Fee is waived in certain situations, such as when DC Trust Points are purchased simultaneous with the enrollment of already-owned eligible Weeks or a direct-resale purchase of Weeks. There are also occasional sales incentives that entail waivers of the Enrollment Fee for eligible Weeks.
> 
> This is why there was so much pushback by Marriott owners to another participation fee when the discussion started about MVW possibly integrating Vistana/Hyatt with Marriott in some sort of internal exchange system, especially among those who think the Destination Club Exchange Company could be that vehicle. The word "legacy" is used by TUGgers more to differentiate the Marriott Weeks product that was sold prior to the DC inception from the Points product which has been available since, less as a differential between Weeks that are and are not eligible for DC enrollment. The overwhelming majority of Marriott Weeks owners who enrolled their eligible "legacy" Weeks did, in fact, pay a one-time Enrollment Fee (while far fewer satisfied the terms for a waiver) for membership in the DC Exchange Company.



I've been a MVCI owner since 2002.  I have what you refer to as a "legacy" week.  I did not pay to enroll my week, and for at least the past 4 years, MVCI has been enrolling "legacy" week owners for free, provided they watch an online tutorial.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> But the inclusion of part of Nanea into Westin Flex was not what @pchung6 said sales said they knew nothing about. He said they knew nothing about a combined Westin/Sheraton/Marriott exchange program. The combination of Nanea into Westin Flex is a totally different thing.



Not once have I mentioned anything about a combined Westin/Sheraton/Marriott exchange program.  You guys bring Sheraton into the fold, not me.  I've only been talking about Vistana (because that is the legal name of the entity that is now selling the Westin FlexOptions program). I get that it is what it is, and all of the details have not yet been identified.  My entire point of adding a comment to this feed was to respond to the comments about folks "waiting" for their Westin timeshares to be combined into their Marriott ownership so that they can book either location.  I do not believe that is ever going to happen.  This was not a merger.  It was an acquisition by MVW of ILG (who owned Vistana, since Vistana was created under the umbrella of ILG, before MVW acquired ILG).

And, BTW, under the FlexOptions program, an owner cannot combine the old StarOptions with new FlexOptions (as I understand the program) for a booking, unless the owner has bought into the FlexOptions program and somehow "enrolled" (again, that is my term) their "legacy" Westin purchase.  As I mentioned much earlier, when I was attending the update. I did not explore all of the details to do that, because it was of zero interest to me.  I have plenty of ownership between 4 MVCI weeks and points, my Vistana ownership, plus other properties in Cabo.  I'm not interested in adding FlexOptions and told them that I was not interested in using the title to my Nanea property to buy FlexOptions, nor did I want to buy stand alone FlexOptions to give myself months 9-12 access to the 8 "home" resorts.  Just an aside though, the sales folks were saying that I'd soon find it impossible to book my Nanea ownership at 12 months because of all of the FlexOption owners who will have access.  I did not bother to let the sales folks know that I'd already received an email from Nanea telling me that only one building was sold.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I've been a MVCI owner since 2002.  I have what you refer to as a "legacy" week.  I did not pay to enroll my week, and for at least the past 4 years, MVCI has been enrolling "legacy" week owners for free, provided they watch an online tutorial.



Yes, but not post 2010 weeks (for free). Just to clarify.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

controller1 said:


> Your use of the term Vistana FlexOptions is really confusing.  There is no such program as Vistana FlexOptions.
> 
> From your post quoted above it is clear you are referring to the Westin Flex program.  Using incorrect titles just provides confusion.  There are currently four flex programs within Vistana.
> 
> ...



If I've referred to it as Vistana FlexOptions, then I apologize.  This format in this forum is quite new to me and I'm just trying to keep up.  I will say that when I addended the Vistana update, it was pitched as the Vistana point system, and then also referred to as Westin FlexOptions, with the Westin Flex Home Resorts and the Westin Vacation Club Villa Resort Collection that was the total of 23 locations (including the 8 "home" resorts) where the FlexOptions could be used to book at any place in month 1-8.  There was no specific discussion under the names of "Sheraton" or "Aventuras", but I will note that the entire resort collection did include properties that are Sheraton and Cabo, including the following:  Vistana Orlando, PGA resort in Port St Lucie, Beach Club in Jensen Beach, Steamboat Resort Villas, Lakeside in Vail, Sheraton Kauai, Sheraton Desert Oasis in Scottsdale, Harborside in Atlantis, St John USVI, Broadway Plantation Myrtle Beach, Laguna Mar Cancun, Westin Cancun, Westin Los Cabos, and Westin PV.  There was one recent addition to the list, but I did not write that name down and it was not on the handout that identified all of the resorts that were available for booking at months 1-8 with FlexOptions.  Hope this helps.


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## controller1 (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> There was one recent addition to the list, but I did not write that name down and it was not on the handout that identified all of the resorts that were available for booking at months 1-8 with FlexOptions.  Hope this helps.



The recent addition may have been The Westin Cancun Resort & Spa. I believe I read where it had recently been added to the Westin Aventuras flex program but it was not shown as such on the Vistana website.


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## vacationtime1 (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> If I've referred to it as Vistana FlexOptions, then I apologize.  This format in this forum is quite new to me and I'm just trying to keep up.  I will say that when I addended the Vistana update, it was pitched as the Vistana point system, and then also referred to as Westin FlexOptions, with the Westin Flex Home Resorts and the Westin Vacation Club Villa Resort Collection that was the total of 23 locations (including the 8 "home" resorts) where the FlexOptions could be used to book at any place in month 1-8.  There was no specific discussion under the names of "Sheraton" or "Aventuras", but I will note that the entire resort collection did include properties that are Sheraton and Cabo, including the following:  Vistana Orlando, PGA resort in Port St Lucie, Beach Club in Jensen Beach, Steamboat Resort Villas, Lakeside in Vail, Sheraton Kauai, Sheraton Desert Oasis in Scottsdale, Harborside in Atlantis, St John USVI, Broadway Plantation Myrtle Beach, Laguna Mar Cancun, Westin Cancun, Westin Los Cabos, and Westin PV.  There was one recent addition to the list, but I did not write that name down and it was not on the handout that identified all of the resorts that were available for booking at months 1-8 with FlexOptions.  Hope this helps.



None of the flex trusts have 23 resorts.  Perhaps there are 23 in the four trusts combined, but many of the 23 will be difficult to impossible to reserve at 8 months (ski resorts during ski season, Hawaii during summer, etc.).  From 12 - 8 months, one can reserve only resorts within the specific flex trust one owns.

Count me among those who find these flex trusts to be a cynical attempt by Vistana to eliminate mandatory VOI's, destroy resale values, and control the resale market via ROFR.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> Yes, but not post 2010 weeks (for free). Just to clarify.



No one has EVER said that post 2010 weeks were ever enrolled by MVCI for free.  Once MVCI started selling DPs, then the unsold inventory for all USA based resorts was put into the DP trust.  Anything sold post 2010 (USA based) is only sold resale.  MVCI has been selling what they term "hybrid" ownership, ie points plus a resale week, and then that resale week is automatically enrolled, but trust me, it costs significantly more than the $2395 you stated.  And, if you go to any of the 4 european properties, you can buy a week (actually it is a RTU) that is automatically enrolled in the DP system. There have been some reports that folks who have recently bought USVI MVCI weeks or Aruba weeks were given a bonus and allowed to enroll a resale week for no additional charge.  I don't have specifics, but folks have definitely reported that in a few instances.  I know that personally, I was offered to enroll my resale weeks only if I were to purchase additional 3k (for one week) or 4k (for 2 or more weeks) DPs.  But I wasn't interested in become chairman level and did not want to spend between $33k and $44k just to enroll my resale weeks.  Not to mention that I don't need more points.  LOL.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

controller1 said:


> The recent addition may have been The Westin Cancun Resort & Spa. I believe I read where it had recently been added to the Westin Aventuras flex program but it was not shown as such on the Vistana website.



Nope, that was on the list given to me at the beginning of this month.


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> No one has EVER said that post 2010 weeks were ever enrolled by MVCI for free.



I didn't say YOU said post 2010 or anyone else for that matter. I was clarifying for readers of the topic, nothing more or less. I don't want someone looking at Marriott and this topic believing that they can buy resale and get enrolled for free. And I am not aware of ever stating $2395, you must be speaking of someone else.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

vacationtime1 said:


> None of the flex trusts have 23 resorts.  Perhaps there are 23 in the four trusts combined, but many will be difficult to impossible to reserve at 8 months.  From 12 - 8 months, one can reserve only resorts with the specific flex trust one owns.



To restate what I have already stated, there are 8 "home" resorts in the Westin FlexOptions program.  These are: Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas, Kaanapali Ocean North, Nanea (only one building), Princeville Ocean Resort, Mission Hills Villas, Desert Willow Villas, Riverfront Mountain Villas and Kierland Villas.  Any of those 8 resorts can be booked with the FlexOptions at months 9-12.  Thereafter, starting with month 8, there are 15 additional properties that someone who owns FlexOptions can book (subject to availability of course).  As of August 2019, there are 24 TOTAL resorts that can be booked with FlexOptions.  Yes, units at these resorts can ALSO be booked with StarOptions (for those of us with old StarOptions), so the 24 total also include the 8 resorts that are able to be booked at 9-12 months.  I agree that it will be difficult to book at the 1-8 month dates.


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## controller1 (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> To restate what I have already stated, there are 8 "home" resorts in the Westin FlexOptions program.  These are: Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas, Kaanapali Ocean North, Nanea (only one building), Princeville Ocean Resort, Mission Hills Villas, Desert Willow Villas, Riverfront Mountain Villas and Kierland Villas.  Any of those 8 resorts can be booked with the FlexOptions at months 9-12.  Thereafter, starting with month 8, there are 15 additional properties that someone who owns FlexOptions can book (subject to availability of course).  As of August 2019, there are 24 TOTAL resorts that can be booked with FlexOptions.  Yes, units at these resorts can ALSO be booked with StarOptions (for those of us with old StarOptions), so the 24 total also include the 8 resorts that are able to be booked at 9-12 months.  I agree that it will be difficult to book at the 1-8 month dates.



The notation of "only one building" for Nanea is only due to the fact there was at least that much unsold inventory owned by Vistana and they were able to dump the equivalent of one building into the Westin Flex trust at one time.  The other resorts listed in the Westin Flex may actually each have less than one building's worth of units in the Westin Flex as there were much fewer unsold units and the bulk of what is in the Westin Flex are week units that were used as trade-ins for points purchases in the Westin Flex program.


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## pchung6 (Aug 27, 2019)

To clarify, I never heard Flex Options before. I used this term Flex Options with the believe Flex Options = Home Options for Flex. To book within 8 months, Staroptions is the only points available for all 23 Vistana resorts reservation. I never heard Flexoptions to book 1-8 months.


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## controller1 (Aug 27, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> To clarify, I never heard Flex Options before. I used this term Flex Options with the believe Flex Options = Home Options for Flex. To book within 8 months, Staroptions is the only points available for all 23 Vistana resorts reservation.



I am with you.  The first time I heard of "FlexOptions" was in reading posts by @LeslieDet .  I own Westin Flex points and they are called Home Options which, if purchased from the developer, are the equivalent of StarOptions at the 1-8 months reservation period.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> Not once have I mentioned anything about a combined Westin/Sheraton/Marriott exchange program.  You guys bring Sheraton into the fold, not me.  I've only been talking about Vistana (because that is the legal name of the entity that is now selling the Westin FlexOptions program). I get that it is what it is, and all of the details have not yet been identified.  My entire point of adding a comment to this feed was to respond to the comments about folks "waiting" for their Westin timeshares to be combined into their Marriott ownership so that they can book either location.  I do not believe that is ever going to happen.  This was not a merger.  It was an acquisition by MVW of ILG (who owned Vistana, since Vistana was created under the umbrella of ILG, before MVW acquired ILG).



We are bringing Sheraton into the fold because like Westin, Sheraton is part of legacy Vistana which has both Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex programs under that legacy Vistana umbrella. You were talking about your theory of using what you called "FlexOptions" to exchange for DPs and vice versa, so since both Sheraton and Westin have so-called FlexOptions (your terminology), if they offer a way to convert those FlexOptions to DPs and vice versa, well, that effectively IS a Westin/Sheraton/Marriott cross-exchange program that you were describing. The CEO of MVW has told investors in their earnings call that they ARE developing an integrated product that will eventually allow Marriott owners to book Westin/Sheraton and vice versa, we just don't know the exact structure yet. No, it likely won't be a true full "merger" in the sense that the Vistana and Marriott programs will likely continue to exist as standalone legacy programs; but based on the CEO's disclosures, there will likely be some sort of new program that allows Westin/Sheraton owners to book Marriott and Marriott to book Westin/Sheraton. In the multitude of TUG threads over the past couple of months on this topic, I don't think anyone has seriously suggested that there will be a seamless merger of the Vistana and MVC programs. In fact, just the opposite has been said - the different legal structures make a full merger almost impossible and the integrated product will likely be an exchange capability between the programs. So, I'm not really sure what you are debating here.



> And, BTW, under the FlexOptions program, an owner cannot combine the old StarOptions with new FlexOptions (as I understand the program) for a booking, unless the owner has bought into the FlexOptions program and somehow "enrolled" (again, that is my term) their "legacy" Westin purchase.



The Vistana owners will have to clarify this, but based on my understanding, this is NOT correct. I don't think there is an "enrollment" concept in the Vistana program. My understanding is the only thing along those lines that they offer is the "re-qualification" process for Voluntary resale weeks (which don't even have StarOptions), to allow those to have StarOptions. Doing that re-qualification requires a Flex purchase, but someone with a Mandatory week would not have to do that. Also, if someone who owned a Voluntary or Mandatory deed with StarOptions wanted the ability to use the StarOptions value of their week to book one of the Flex resorts from 12-8 months, they could surrender their deed as part of buying into their chosen Flex program and then have full rights for all of their resulting HomeOptions in that Flex program, but they would no longer own their deeded week.  @pchung6, @CPNY, and @controller1, can one of you chime in and clarify this point? Is what @LeslieDet is saying correct? Does a VSE owner who has "old" StarOptions have to "enroll" them in some way to be able to combine them with the so called "FlexOptions" for a booking? (And I know FlexOptions isn't an official name, but I think LeslieDet is using that label to refer to the HomeOptions that come with Flex ownership).


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## CPNY (Aug 27, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> We are bringing Sheraton into the fold because like Westin, Sheraton is part of legacy Vistana which has both Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex programs under that legacy Vistana umbrella. You were talking about your theory of using what you called "FlexOptions" to exchange for DPs and vice versa, so since both Sheraton and Westin have so-called FlexOptions (your terminology), if they offer a way to convert those FlexOptions to DPs and vice versa, well, that effectively IS a Westin/Sheraton/Marriott cross-exchange program that you were describing. The CEO of MVW has told investors in their earnings call that they ARE developing an integrated product that will eventually allow Marriott owners to book Westin/Sheraton and vice versa, we just don't know the exact structure yet. No, it likely won't be a true full "merger" in the sense that the Vistana and Marriott programs will likely continue to exist as standalone legacy programs; but based on the CEO's disclosures, there will likely be some sort of new program that allows Westin/Sheraton owners to book Marriott and Marriott to book Westin/Sheraton. In the multitude of TUG threads over the past couple of months on this topic, I don't think anyone has seriously suggested that there will be a seamless merger of the Vistana and MVC programs. In fact, just the opposite has been said - the different legal structures make a full merger almost impossible and the integrated product will likely be an exchange capability between the programs. So, I'm not really sure what you are debating here.
> 
> 
> 
> The Vistana owners will have to clarify this, but based on my understanding, this is NOT correct. I don't think there is an "enrollment" concept in the Vistana program. My understanding is the only thing along those lines that they offer is the "re-qualification" process for Voluntary resale weeks (which don't even have StarOptions), to allow those to have StarOptions. Doing that re-qualification requires a Flex purchase, but someone with a Mandatory week would not have to do that. Also, if someone who owned a Voluntary or Mandatory deed with StarOptions wanted the ability to use the StarOptions value of their week to book one of the Flex resorts from 12-8 months, they could surrender their deed as part of buying into their chosen Flex program and then have full rights for all of their resulting HomeOptions in that Flex program, but they would no longer own their deeded week.  @pchung6, @CPNY, and @controller1, can one of you chime in and clarify this point? Is what @LeslieDet is saying correct? Does a VSE owner who has "old" StarOptions have to "enroll" them in some way to be able to combine them with the so called "FlexOptions" for a booking?


At 8 months all star options are available for all bookings. If you have flex options and a mandatory week with options, at 8 months they are combined. 12-8 you can only use the options within the realm you own in. Deeded week at home resort or flex options at flex resorts.


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## Sicnarf (Aug 27, 2019)

so requalification is not only for voluntary but all resale units if you want it to count towards elite status and exchange to Bonvoy points. correct, if you convert your unit to flex, you no longer own a deeded week.  there is no such thing as enrolling staroptions,  flexpoints becomes staroptions at 8 months so you can combine them with staroptions from resale mandatory weeks.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 27, 2019)

CPNY said:


> At 8 months all star options are available for all bookings. If you have flex options and a mandatory week with options, at 8 months they are combined. 12-8 you can only use the options within the realm you own in. Deeded week at home resort or flex options at flex resorts.





Sicnarf said:


> so requalification is not only for voluntary but all resale units if you want it to count towards elite status and exchange to Bonvoy points. correct, if you convert your unit to flex, you no longer own a deeded week.  there is no such thing as enrolling staroptions,  flexpoints becomes staroptions at 8 months so you can combine them with staroptions from resale mandatory weeks.



That's the way I thought it worked. I'm not sure what point @LeslieDet is trying to convey.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> To clarify, I never heard Flex Options before. I used this term Flex Options with the believe Flex Options = Home Options for Flex. To book within 8 months, Staroptions is the only points available for all 23 Vistana resorts reservation. I never heard Flexoptions to book 1-8 months.



It is the NEW program being sold by Vistana - it is a point ownership, reflected by a deed recorded in FL, just like how the MVCI DPs ownership is reflected by a deed recorded in FL.  The points are being sold as basically a fractionalized ownership interest in a FL land trust.  StarOptions are now old and not being sold.  The program is now FlexOptions.  Point sales only.  As I stated, there are 8 "home resorts" and then 15 additional ones that can be booked beginning at month 8.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> That's the way I thought it worked. I'm not sure what point @LeslieDet is trying to convey.



The point is that StarOptions and FlexOptions cannot be combined, UNLESS the owner has basically enrolled into the program.  That is the point I'm trying to make.  You are wrong that StarOptions are the ONLY points available for all 23 Vistana resorts reservation.  Now, the programs overlap.  They are not just new terms for the same old thing.  I don't know how to make it any clearer.  Just because you never heard of FlexOptions doesn't mean that they do not exist.  And, BTW, the old StarOptions can still be turned into BonVoy points.  That is not a benefit for only the new program.  The "catch" is that the new FlexOptions program has owner benefit levels - called 3 star, 4 star or 5 star.  If one buys into the new program, then using FlexOptions to acquire BonVoy points is done at a reduced rate.  The new owner levels also have extended banking deadlines, and reduced fees as perks.  They cannot eliminate the benefits that were contractually provided to those of us who purchased prior to the acquisition of ILG by MVW.  But what Vistana is doing is trying to incentivize the old owners to move to the new platform, and yes, that includes giving up deeds because that adds more inventory to the FlexOptions program.

FYI - here is a quote from the email from Nanea regarding the sale of one building to the Flex program:  "Home Options (ownership points) and Westin Flex Home Options values cannot be combined to create a Home Resort reservation." 

While this may create further ambiguity, it really seems that Vistana is trying to make it clear that the old program ended, and that the only thing Vistana has moving forward is the new point based program.  I could be wrong, but it's not my wording, it is lifted directly from the news release.


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## CPNY (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> The point is that StarOptions and FlexOptions cannot be combined, UNLESS the owner has basically enrolled into the program.  That is the point I'm trying to make.  You are wrong that StarOptions are the ONLY points available for all 23 Vistana resorts reservation.  Now, the programs overlap.  They are not just new terms for the same old thing.  I don't know how to make it any clearer.  Just because you never heard of FlexOptions doesn't mean that they do not exist.  And, BTW, the old StarOptions can still be turned into BonVoy points.  That is not a benefit for only the new program.  The "catch" is that the new FlexOptions program has owner benefit levels - called 3 star, 4 star or 5 star.  If one buys into the new program, then using FlexOptions to acquire BonVoy points is done at a reduced rate.  The new owner levels also have extended banking deadlines, and reduced fees as perks.  They cannot eliminate the benefits that were contractually provided to those of us who purchased prior to the acquisition of ILG by MVW.  But what Vistana is doing is trying to incentivize the old owners to move to the new platform, and yes, that includes giving up deeds because that adds more inventory to the FlexOptions program.


3,4,and 5 star elite was always in play when you owned a certain level of STAROPTIONS. Flexoptions, flex points, star options, or whatever you or they are calling them are all the same thing. If you own Westin flex or Sheraton flex or aventuras ownership, your “home resort” are all the resorts within the plan. Yes, we know this already. Im not sure what you mean by “enrolled” are you referring to making a voluntary deed retro back into the vistana network with the purchase of a new ownership in flex? That’s also not new. You could always retro voluntary resale weeks back into the vistana network with the purchase of a new ownership, even back when they were selling weeks.

If you buy a resale mandatory deed today in the mandatory resorts and you own Westin flex then yes those star options combine without having to enroll your mandatory resale deed because it’s mandatory and has to be enrolled in the vistana network. The star/flex options combine at 8 months prior to booking.

And technically they can do anything they want and that includes eliminating benefits as it states in the CCRs. Changes can be made at any time.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 27, 2019)

vacationtime1 said:


> Count me among those who find these flex trusts to be a cynical attempt by Vistana to eliminate mandatory VOI's, destroy resale values, and control the resale market via ROFR.


I suspect this is a huge side benefit. But the move to a trust based product really had to be done. WIth so many other timeshare brands doing the same in order to sell otherwise hard to sell inventory (low season weeks), they really had to do it. Hilton now is really the only hold out without a trust based program and their investors are now asking why.



LeslieDet said:


> FYI - here is a quote from the email from Nanea regarding the sale of one building to the Flex program: "Home Options (ownership points) and Westin Flex Home Options values cannot be combined to create a Home Resort reservation."


It is correct that you can't use Home Options from Nanea to combine with Home Options from Westin Flex to make a home resort reservation. They are separate trusts, with Nanea being its own trust, perhaps recorded in Hawaii and Westin Flex being recorded in Orange County Florida. So you can't use Home Options from Westin Flex to book something in the Nanea trust. However you could possible use it to make a Home resort reservation by pulling Nenea inventory from the Westin Flex trust. However if you make a reservation eight months out, you should be able to combine StarOptions from a weeks ownership and combine it with the Home Options (which at eight months are StarOptions) and make a single reservation at any VSN resort. This is no different in where you can't use a week at SVV and Sheraton Flex Home Options to make a home resort reservation.

I think you are using the term Flex Options here where Vistana calls them Home Options at both Nanea and in Westin Flex. It is right there in your quote from the email. They don't refer to them as Flex Options as pointed out by others.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> That's the way I thought it worked. I'm not sure what point @LeslieDet is trying to convey.



As I've said from my first reply on this thread, I was trying to respond to the comment about waiting for the MVCI and Westin programs to be "merged."  I never wanted to go off on these discussions about all of the changes in Vistana and how things work there; I've admitted that my knowledge base is really focused on MVCI ownership.  So, I'm going to jump off this feed, but just know that the only thing Vistana is selling now is a points based ownership (reflected by a deed recorded in FL).  There are no more sales that are reflected by deeds recorded at the various locations (Hawaii, AZ, FL, CO).  I never paid attention as to how ownership was taken for the Mexican locations, so I am not going to speculate now.  The points based program has options that are used to book stays at the identified resorts.  Those same points aka options are also eligible for BonVoy points, and can be banked and borrowed.  The owner levels have been created to offer benefits and encourage owners to purchase more points aka options.  The more points aka options you have, the better the benefits.  Just like with MVCI.  They cannot do away with the old system, because there are deeds recorded.  So, these programs are running on separate paths. I do not believe that there is ever going to be a "merger" of the MVCI DP program and any of the other timeshare programs that were under the ILG umbrella.  

Happy travels.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> The point is that StarOptions and FlexOptions cannot be combined, UNLESS the owner has basically enrolled into the program.  That is the point I'm trying to make.  You are wrong that StarOptions are the ONLY points available for all 23 Vistana resorts reservation.  Now, the programs overlap.  They are not just new terms for the same old thing.  I don't know how to make it any clearer.  Just because you never heard of FlexOptions doesn't mean that they do not exist.  And, BTW, the old StarOptions can still be turned into BonVoy points.  That is not a benefit for only the new program.  The "catch" is that the new FlexOptions program has owner benefit levels - called 3 star, 4 star or 5 star.  If one buys into the new program, then using FlexOptions to acquire BonVoy points is done at a reduced rate.  The new owner levels also have extended banking deadlines, and reduced fees as perks.  They cannot eliminate the benefits that were contractually provided to those of us who purchased prior to the acquisition of ILG by MVW.  But what Vistana is doing is trying to incentivize the old owners to move to the new platform, and yes, that includes giving up deeds because that adds more inventory to the FlexOptions program.



As several posters said above, we all know Flex is the new program being sold by Vistana, and it's a points/trust program just like DPs; but it is NOT a new program that is a result of the acquisition of ILG by MVW. Flex was being sold by Vistana well prior to the ILG acquisition by MVW. Sheraton Flex was first, followed by Aventuras, and Westin Flex. 

And as several very knowledgeable, experienced multi-week Vistana owners said above, there is NO enrollment required to use StarOptions and Flex together (at least during the 8-1 month VSN reservation window). There is no such thing in Vistana as "enrollment". At 8 months, all Flex HomeOptions and Legacy StarOptions function the same way for bookings outside of your home ownership. I think you are confusing Marriott terminology and the Vistana program, or have been confused by things the sales person said trying to sell you the product.  


Legacy owners of Vistana weeks have a right to book their home week from 12-8 months. Then from 8-1 months, they can use the StarOptions value of their week to book at any of the VSN resorts (I'll take you world for it that it is 23)
Several years ago, Vistana created their Flex concept - first Sheraton Flex, then later added Westin Flex, and Aventuras. They also sell Home Options at Nanea. Those re the product(s) they are selling now at most sales offices. Flex products are sold in the form of HomeOptions (points), not deeded weeks. Each Flex group is made up of multiple resorts, and Flex owners have home resort priority at all of the resorts in the group that you own.
Each Flex product allows you to use you owned HomeOptions to book within your Flex *group *of resorts during the 12-8 month period. From 8-1 months, those HomeOptions can be used to book at the other VSN resorts - *just like legacy StarOptions.* The only real difference between a Legacy week ownership and a Flex ownership is the legacy owner has home resort priority from 12-8 months at that one resort, while Flex owners have home priority at all of the resorts in their Flex group. But starting at 8 months out, everyone - legacy StarOptions owners and Flex owners can book any VSN resort.
I'm pretty sure the old StarOptions had owner benefit levels also based on StarOptions ownership. Vistana owners will have to chime in to confirm, but my impression has always been the benefit levels are the same for legacy StarOptions and Flex. 
I think what may be confusing you is since you own at Nanea, and Nanea was originally sold as totally separate HomeOptions, but is now also partially in Westin Flex. As dioxide45 said, you can't combine Nanea HomeOptions and Westin Flex to reserve from 12-8 months, but I believe you most certainly can combine them from 8-1 months. Westin Flex is definitely a new program for Nanea, and was a new wrinkle added after the acquisition of ILG by MVW, but Flex programs, including Westin Flex, pre-date the merger by many months/years. 

But none of these programs have anything to do - yet - with any kind of cross-program exchange with Marriott Vacation Club.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

CPNY said:


> 3,4,and 5 star elite was always in play when you owned a certain level of STAROPTIONS. Flexoptions, flex points, star options, or whatever you or they are calling them are all the same thing. If you own Westin flex or Sheraton flex or aventuras ownership, your “home resort” are all the resorts within the plan. Yes, we know this already. Im not sure what you mean by “enrolled” are you referring to making a voluntary deed retro back into the vistana network with the purchase of a new ownership in flex? That’s also not new. You could always retro voluntary resale weeks back into the vistana network with the purchase of a new ownership, even back when they were selling weeks.
> 
> If you buy a resale mandatory deed today in the mandatory resorts and you own Westin flex then yes those star options combine without having to enroll your mandatory resale deed because it’s mandatory and has to be enrolled in the vistana network. The star/flex options combine at 8 months prior to booking.
> 
> And technically they can do anything they want and that includes eliminating benefits as it states in the CCRs. Changes can be made at any time.



I've never talked about any resale program or resale rights or benefits. But as to modifying CC&Rs, that is hard to do, unless the corporation controls the requisite % of voting rights.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> As several posters said above, we all know Flex is the new program being sold by Vistana, and it's a points/trust program just like DPs; but it is NOT a new program that is a result of the acquisition of ILG by MVW. Flex was being sold by Vistana well prior to the ILG acquisition by MVW. Sheraton Flex was first, followed by Aventuras, and Westin Flex.
> 
> And as several very knowledgeable, experienced multi-week Vistana owners said above, there is NO enrollment required to use StarOptions and Flex together (at least during the 8-1 month VSN reservation window). There is no such thing in Vistana as "enrollment". At 8 months, all Flex HomeOptions and Legacy StarOptions function the same way for bookings outside of your home ownership. I think you are confusing Marriott terminology and the Vistana program, or have been confused by things the sales person said trying to sell you the product.
> 
> ...



I'm going to confess that I've not read or analyzed your entire comment -- just wanted to state that the Westin FlexOptions program was rolled out on January 4, 2018.  It is not how it's "always" been.  And the Nanea participation in Flex is only one building.  That's it.  One building.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> As I've said from my first reply on this thread, I was trying to respond to the comment about waiting for the MVCI and Westin programs to be "merged."  I never wanted to go off on these discussions about all of the changes in Vistana and how things work there; I've admitted that my knowledge base is really focused on MVCI ownership.  So, I'm going to jump off this feed, but just know that the only thing Vistana is selling now is a points based ownership (reflected by a deed recorded in FL).  There are no more sales that are reflected by deeds recorded at the various locations (Hawaii, AZ, FL, CO).  I never paid attention as to how ownership was taken for the Mexican locations, so I am not going to speculate now.  The points based program has options that are used to book stays at the identified resorts.  Those same points aka options are also eligible for BonVoy points, and can be banked and borrowed.  The owner levels have been created to offer benefits and encourage owners to purchase more points aka options.  The more points aka options you have, the better the benefits.  Just like with MVCI.  They cannot do away with the old system, because there are deeds recorded.  So, these programs are running on separate paths. I do not believe that there is ever going to be a "merger" of the MVCI DP program and any of the other timeshare programs that were under the ILG umbrella.
> 
> Happy travels.



Yes. We are all well aware that all that the Vistana side of the business is selling now is the points-based ownership. That's been well documented on these boards for years. We also all mostly agree the programs will likely never truly "Merge", but if you are to believe the CEO, there will be ways for legacy Vistana owners to book MVC and vice versa. We will all see what happens.


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## CPNY (Aug 27, 2019)

@SueDonJ can add more to the MVC side of things. Seems like this member may be confusing certain VSE and MVC terminology. (Not Jim but Leslie)
[QUOTE="JIMinNC, post: 2329801, member: 293"]As several posters said above, we all know Flex is the new program being sold by Vistana, and it's a points/trust program just like DPs; but it is NOT a new program that is a result of the acquisition of ILG by MVW. Flex was being sold by Vistana well prior to the ILG acquisition by MVW. Sheraton Flex was first, followed by Aventuras, and Westin Flex.

And as several very knowledgeable, experienced multi-week Vistana owners said above, there is NO enrollment required to use StarOptions and Flex together (at least during the 8-1 month VSN reservation window). There is no such thing in Vistana as "enrollment". At 8 months, all Flex HomeOptions and Legacy StarOptions function the same way for bookings outside of your home ownership. I think you are confusing Marriott terminology and the Vistana program, or have been confused by things the sales person said trying to sell you the product.

[LIST]
[*]Legacy owners of Vistana weeks have a right to book their home week from 12-8 months. Then from 8-1 months, they can use the StarOptions value of their week to book at any of the VSN resorts (I'll take you world for it that it is 23)
[*]Several years ago, Vistana created their Flex concept - first Sheraton Flex, then later added Westin Flex, and Aventuras. They also sell Home Options at Nanea. Those re the product(s) they are selling now at most sales offices. Flex products are sold in the form of HomeOptions (points), not deeded weeks. Each Flex group is made up of multiple resorts, and Flex owners have home resort priority at all of the resorts in the group that you own.
[*]Each Flex product allows you to use you owned HomeOptions to book within your Flex [B]group [/B]of resorts during the 12-8 month period. From 8-1 months, those HomeOptions can be used to book at the other VSN resorts - [B]just like legacy StarOptions.[/B] The only real difference between a Legacy week ownership and a Flex ownership is the legacy owner has home resort priority from 12-8 months at that one resort, while Flex owners have home priority at all of the resorts in their Flex group. But starting at 8 months out, everyone - legacy StarOptions owners and Flex owners can book any VSN resort.
[*]I'm pretty sure the old StarOptions had owner benefit levels also based on StarOptions ownership. Vistana owners will have to chime in to confirm, but my impression has always been the benefit levels are the same for legacy StarOptions and Flex.
[/LIST]
I think what may be confusing you is since you own at Nanea, and Nanea was originally sold as totally separate HomeOptions, but is now also partially in Westin Flex. As dioxide45 said, you can't combine Nanea HomeOptions and Westin Flex to reserve from 12-8 months, but I believe you most certainly can combine them from 8-1 months. Westin Flex is definitely a new program for Nanea, and was a new wrinkle added after the acquisition of ILG by MVW, but Flex programs, including Westin Flex, pre-date the merger by many months/years.

But none of these programs have anything to do - yet - with any kind of cross-program exchange with Marriott Vacation Club.[/QUOTE]
correct, on all points. Except it’s 8 months - 1 day out lol. The closest thing VSE has to “enrollment” would be to “retro” a voluntary resale back into the network with the purchase of a new developer VOI.

Yes! Elite ownership has ALWAYS been a VSE benefit of owning more. Each level is and always was achieved by the amount of options you owned not amount of VOI’s.

But pretty spot on for someone who doesn’t own in the VSE space.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I'm going to confess that I've not read or analyzed your entire comment -- just wanted to state that the Westin FlexOptions program was rolled out on January 4, 2018.  It is not how it's "always" been.  And the Nanea participation in Flex is only one building.  That's it.  One building.



If you'll read the whole comment you'll see we know that. No one said it had "always" been that way.


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## CPNY (Aug 27, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I've never talked about any resale program or resale rights or benefits. But as to modifying CC&Rs, that is hard to do, unless the corporation controls the requisite % of voting rights.


When you speak of “enrollment” you must be referring to resale weeks of voluntary deeds or else what are you referring to? It is stated that they can make changes pretty much at will. Nothing is set in stone. It’s highly unlikely they will but the needs of the business can change and things can be taken away, added, or completely sold off.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 27, 2019)

CPNY said:


> @SueDonJ can add more to the MVC side of things. Seems like this member may be confusing certain VSE and MVC terminology. (Not Jim but Leslie)
> 
> correct, on all points. Except it’s 8 months - 1 day out lol. The closest thing VSE has to “enrollment” would be to “retro” a voluntary resale back into the network with the purchase of a new developer VOI.
> 
> ...



I studied the VSE program extensively when trying to decide whether to add VSE or HGVC to our MVC ownership. I'm no expert, but I think I have a basic understanding of the way it works. I think LeslieDet is a little confused about some of the details/inner workings of the VSE program.


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## CPNY (Aug 27, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I studied the VSE program extensively when trying to decide whether to add VSE or HGVC to our MVC ownership. I'm no expert, but I think I have a basic understanding of the way it works. I think LeslieDet is a little confused about some of the details/inner workings of the VSE program.


I understand what Leslie is saying to some extent but there is misinformation being given. To speak of enrollment then talk about not mentioning resale weeks is confusing. What would you “enroll” and where would you enroll it lol? Maybe it’s being used in the context of VSE giving owners the equity in their ownership and is referring to the “buyback” of the deeded week to buy into a new flex plan? She could be confusing the sales tactic of dangling elite ownership in our faces as if it’s something new with flex, that sales reps do. However, It’s always been around.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I studied the VSE program extensively when trying to decide whether to add VSE or HGVC to our MVC ownership. I'm no expert, but I think I have a basic understanding of the way it works. I think LeslieDet is a little confused about some of the details/inner workings of the VSE program.



Just to close this out, as I indicated multiple times, I was using the term "enrollment" in an effort to address the comment that you had relating to how legacy weeks from MVCI would have to be excluded to be "fair" in any effort by Vistana and MVCI to create a conversion rate between FlexOptions and DPs.  I stated many times that it was my terminology, but I was simply using that terminology because I am very familiar with how MVCI enrolled legacy weeks and those owners then have the option to elect DPs in lieu of occupancy, and that it is something I believe that Vistana may do to encourage its existing owners to buy FlexOptions, especially if only FlexOptions will be the "currency" that can be thereafter converted into DPs so that Vistana owners can have access to MVCI properties, and MVCI owners can have access to Vistana properties, all without having to go through Interval.  

It is not that I do not understand the process; but rather, it seems you do not believe that there will be an exchange rate created to allow that cross-brand usage.  I was not trying to do anything else.  But as this goes on and on, and different folks jump in and say various things, yes, I fell into the trap of trying to answer various questions posed by different folks, but only in one reply.  

I am confident that I understand the MVCI program extremely well, and the info I have as to Vistana is admittedly limited and much more recent, and is based upon what was offered for sale to me this month, what I do own in Vistana, as well as what has been disclosed to me as an owner.  At the sales pitch I attended this month, there were many questions that the Vistana reps could not answer, but there are also facts that are clear and crisp regarding what Vistana is doing now, how it is structured, what it is selling, etc.  So let's just call it a day.  Happy travels.


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## pchung6 (Aug 27, 2019)

CPNY said:


> When you speak of “enrollment” you must be referring to resale weeks of voluntary deeds or else what are you referring to? It is stated that they can make changes pretty much at will. Nothing is set in stone. It’s highly unlikely they will but the needs of the business can change and things can be taken away, added, or completely sold off.



There are two ways to retro or "enroll" Vistana resale week (voluntary or mandatory).
1. Bring in at least 10k new money to purchase Flex for each resale contract, it's the latest offer I was told yesterday and sales rep said this offer ends on 8/31 (might not be true, who knows).
2. Trade in your resale week for Flex points. They will give you the full amount of credit of original purchase price and exchange the equivalent Flex points. Not sure minimum new money required or not, since I shown no interest at all and I didn't try to drag the conversation further.

You can combine 1 and 2 to retro resales week by trading in another week.


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## CPNY (Aug 27, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> There are two ways to retro or "enroll" Vistana resale week (voluntary or mandatory).
> 1. Bring in at least 10k new money to purchase Flex for each resale contract, it's the latest offer I was told yesterday and sales rep said this offer ends on 8/31 (might not be true, who knows).
> 2. Trade in your resale week for Flex points. They will give you the full amount of credit of original purchase price and exchange the equivalent Flex points. Not sure minimum new money required or not, since I shown no interest at all and I didn't try to drag the conversation further.
> 
> You can combine 1 and 2 to retro resales week by trading in another week.


Trading in weeks isn’t really enrolling, it’s just selling your weeks back. They claim to give you thousands toward your purchase but imo what people are handing back is much more valuable than flex. Especially if the unit is a mandatory deed. Yes, you can retro your mandatory deed with 10K additional purchase and it would qualify toward elite ownership if you purchased the mandatory deed resale. But I don’t see value in that unless you were planning on buying developer price for some odd reason. I’m a believer In resale ownership. Now, if you own hundreds of thousands of options that are not in the network from resale purchases, then maybe a minimum purchase could be beneficial. Everyone’s circumstances are different.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 27, 2019)

CPNY said:


> I understand what Leslie is saying to some extent but there is misinformation being given. To speak of enrollment then talk about not mentioning resale weeks is confusing. What would you “enroll” and where would you enroll it lol? Maybe it’s being used in the context of VSE giving owners the equity in their ownership and is referring to the “buyback” of the deeded week to buy into a new flex plan? She could be confusing the sales tactic of dangling elite ownership in our faces as if it’s something new with flex, that sales reps do. However, It’s always been around.



Since I don't believe I've ever replied to you in this thread, I just wanted to hopefully clarify for you that my usage of the term "enrollment" was never intended to address nor did it address resale.  What I was talking about and questioning is how is Vistana going to satisy/placate/engage the old (pre-spin off of Vistana by Starwood, and pre-acquisition of that spun off Vistana by ILG, which was then immediately merged into a new Vistana, as owned by ILG) owners (who purchased timeshare interests that are represented by deeds recorded in the location of the timeshare) given the acquisition of ILG by Marriott in 2018.  We know that the Vistana under the ILG umbrella started selling FlexOptions in January 2018.  We know that they want their owners to buy these points reflected by a deed recorded in FL.  We know that they are incentivising those old owners to purchase FlexOptions by offering them full credit of their original purchase price if they will agree to buy the points.  We know that the goal is to get as much of the old inventory moved into the FlexOptions program, since the inventory that went into it was pretty darn limited.  I know from attending the presentation this month that I could buy FlexOptions directly, I could use my existing ownership to purchase FlexOptions, and what I was told, but did not explore, is that I could still keep my ownership and buy FlexOptions.  What I did not ask for detail about at the time, is if I do that, how is Vistana going to incorporate my old ownership into the new program (I keep my Nanea deed).  

Sales manager was encouraging me to purchase as many FlexOptions as possible (the 3, 4, 5 star level).  Sales manager was offering me "phantom" FlexOptions based upon up to 3 of my MVCI properties, so that I would get to a higher owner level, and dangled the "benefit" that both MVCI and Vistana were working on developing an exchange rate so that the "currency" of FlexOptions could be used to book MVCI properties, and vice versa.  I was also told that my old Vistana ownership could be counted as well, but I neglected to get all of the details on how.  Thus, for purposes of this forum and discussion, I was using the term "enrollment".  Because I was under the impression that if I bought into the FlexOptions program, if I gained a certain owner star status, then all of my ownership (whether MVCI or Vistana) was going to benefit me so that I could basically flip between MVCI currency (ie DPs) and Vistana currency (ie FlexOptions).  I did not drill down on those details, as I admitted many posts ago, and i should have.  As that is a definite gap.  I don't know the answer to it.  But at no point was I ever referring to resale properties.  And I was also not referring to redeeming my existing Nanea deed for use as a downpayment on FlexOptions.  I told the Vistana sales folks that I have enough DPs to do what I want, and I don't intend to purchase any FlexOptions.  But I really sincerely do want to understand the programs, since I have a vested interest in both.  

Hope that helps.  Sorry for any typos or formatting issues.  Happy travels.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 28, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> Just to close this out, as I indicated multiple times, I was using the term "enrollment" in an effort to address the comment that you had relating to how legacy weeks from MVCI would have to be excluded to be "fair" in any effort by Vistana and MVCI to create a conversion rate between FlexOptions and DPs.  I stated many times that it was my terminology, but I was simply using that terminology because I am very familiar with how MVCI enrolled legacy weeks and those owners then have the option to elect DPs in lieu of occupancy, and that it is something I believe that Vistana may do to encourage its existing owners to buy FlexOptions, especially if only FlexOptions will be the "currency" that can be thereafter converted into DPs so that Vistana owners can have access to MVCI properties, and MVCI owners can have access to Vistana properties, all without having to go through Interval.



Just to close the loop on a few things...if what you are trying to say is that they might require current Vistana weeks/StarOptions owners to buy/add a Flex package as a way to gain the ability to use their existing StarOptions (as well as the Flex points they add) to book in some notional cross-brands exchange, then they could certainly do that as a price of entry. Given the price of those Flex packages, if that is the road they choose to travel, most of us believe that participation in such a cross-brand program will be very low. If on the other hand, they take the approach they took in 2010 when the DC was created, and allow a reasonable fee-based way to play in a cross-brand exchange, we have speculated participation could be much greater. Either way, I think we would agree there will be a price of entry, the only question is what form it might take.



> It is not that I do not understand the process; but rather, it seems you do not believe that there will be an exchange rate created to allow that cross-brand usage.



No, I actually said just the opposite. Most likely they will need to create a conversion rate for Flex to DPs and vice versa. There was even a TUG thread recently that discussed what that conversion ratio might be (I can't find that thread). For programs like Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex that are just points, they will likely have no choice but to set an exchange ratio, since all they have to work with is points. For legacy deeded weeks they could use the same exchange ratio to allow deeded weeks with StarOptions to participate (since Flex HomeOptions and StarOptions are based on the same points levels), or they could assign each week a point allocation like they did for MVC DPs almost 10 years ago. There are pros and cons to each approach that they will have to sort out.

My point of contention from the beginning was simply that it would seem unbalanced to allow a way for MVC enrolled weeks to access whatever Vistana inventory became part of any cross-brand program without also allowing Vistana Flex and StarOptions owners the same basic opportunity. They don't want to disadvantage either program.



> I am confident that I understand the MVCI program extremely well, and the info I have as to Vistana is admittedly limited and much more recent, and is based upon what was offered for sale to me this month, what I do own in Vistana, as well as what has been disclosed to me as an owner.  At the sales pitch I attended this month, there were many questions that the Vistana reps could not answer, but there are also facts that are clear and crisp regarding what Vistana is doing now, how it is structured, what it is selling, etc.  So let's just call it a day.  Happy travels.



Most likely, since you don't know Vistana as well as you know MVC, the sales spin, half-truths, etc. that the sales reps used to try to convince you to buy into the Flex program has just muddied the waters for you and caused some confusion. You would be far from the first person to have that happen. That's one of their most powerful sales techniques, to baffle you with their BS. I really don't think the sales reps know very much about what might be coming and are unfortunately using the lack of clarity to muddy the waters to try to get people to buy what they are selling. They do a great job of talking like they do know, but my suspicion is what eventually comes may be quite different than what the sales folks are spinning today.


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## CPNY (Aug 28, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> Since I don't believe I've ever replied to you in this thread, I just wanted to hopefully clarify for you that my usage of the term "enrollment" was never intended to address nor did it address resale.  What I was talking about and questioning is how is Vistana going to satisy/placate/engage the old (pre-spin off of Vistana by Starwood, and pre-acquisition of that spun off Vistana by ILG, which was then immediately merged into a new Vistana, as owned by ILG) owners (who purchased timeshare interests that are represented by deeds recorded in the location of the timeshare) given the acquisition of ILG by Marriott in 2018.  We know that the Vistana under the ILG umbrella started selling FlexOptions in January 2018.  We know that they want their owners to buy these points reflected by a deed recorded in FL.  We know that they are incentivising those old owners to purchase FlexOptions by offering them full credit of their original purchase price if they will agree to buy the points.  We know that the goal is to get as much of the old inventory moved into the FlexOptions program, since the inventory that went into it was pretty darn limited.  I know from attending the presentation this month that I could buy FlexOptions directly, I could use my existing ownership to purchase FlexOptions, and what I was told, but did not explore, is that I could still keep my ownership and buy FlexOptions.  What I did not ask for detail about at the time, is if I do that, how is Vistana going to incorporate my old ownership into the new program (I keep my Nanea deed).
> 
> Sales manager was encouraging me to purchase as many FlexOptions as possible (the 3, 4, 5 star level).  Sales manager was offering me "phantom" FlexOptions based upon up to 3 of my MVCI properties, so that I would get to a higher owner level, and dangled the "benefit" that both MVCI and Vistana were working on developing an exchange rate so that the "currency" of FlexOptions could be used to book MVCI properties, and vice versa.  I was also told that my old Vistana ownership could be counted as well, but I neglected to get all of the details on how.  Thus, for purposes of this forum and discussion, I was using the term "enrollment".  Because I was under the impression that if I bought into the FlexOptions program, if I gained a certain owner star status, then all of my ownership (whether MVCI or Vistana) was going to benefit me so that I could basically flip between MVCI currency (ie DPs) and Vistana currency (ie FlexOptions).  I did not drill down on those details, as I admitted many posts ago, and i should have.  As that is a definite gap.  I don't know the answer to it.  But at no point was I ever referring to resale properties.  And I was also not referring to redeeming my existing Nanea deed for use as a downpayment on FlexOptions.  I told the Vistana sales folks that I have enough DPs to do what I want, and I don't intend to purchase any FlexOptions.  But I really sincerely do want to understand the programs, since I have a vested interest in both.
> 
> Hope that helps.  Sorry for any typos or formatting issues.  Happy travels.


So by saying “enrollment” you confuse people with the real term “retro” which is the terminology used by Vistana, applies to resale weeks, hence the confusion. Enrollment is usually referred to MVC legacy and resale weeks purchased before June 2010 I believe for enrollment into the dc program. So really by you saying enrollment, you meant it as a vague term based on your “old” ownership to be “enrolled” in a joint program because a sales rep said it would also count? A joint program that doesn’t exist. 

As you know, your old ownership cannot be incorporated into the new flex VOI but a new flex VOI can retro your “old” ownership IF it is currently not a member of the VSN or have the ability to convert to bonvoy points (mandatory deeds). Again, “retro” or “enrolled” would apply to resale weeks. But now I  understand that you’re saying enrolled as it would pertain to a new joint program with some new exchange currency being dreamed up in sales rooms across the resorts. I will say this. Most reps are probably on here reading these threads because it’s been speculated they could make a Third point program among so many other theories. This is where they get those sales pitches. 

Speaking of theories, You speak of flipping between DP and Star options and some currency exchange based on a joint program a sales rep told you they were working on yet you failed to inquire how your old ownership would fit in?? I would think that would be a burning question.


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## pchung6 (Aug 28, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> Since I don't believe I've ever replied to you in this thread, I just wanted to hopefully clarify for you that my usage of the term "enrollment" was never intended to address nor did it address resale.  What I was talking about and questioning is how is Vistana going to satisy/placate/engage the old (pre-spin off of Vistana by Starwood, and pre-acquisition of that spun off Vistana by ILG, which was then immediately merged into a new Vistana, as owned by ILG) owners (who purchased timeshare interests that are represented by deeds recorded in the location of the timeshare) given the acquisition of ILG by Marriott in 2018.  We know that the Vistana under the ILG umbrella started selling FlexOptions in January 2018.  We know that they want their owners to buy these points reflected by a deed recorded in FL.  We know that they are incentivising those old owners to purchase FlexOptions by offering them full credit of their original purchase price if they will agree to buy the points.  We know that the goal is to get as much of the old inventory moved into the FlexOptions program, since the inventory that went into it was pretty darn limited.  I know from attending the presentation this month that I could buy FlexOptions directly, I could use my existing ownership to purchase FlexOptions, and what I was told, but did not explore, is that I could still keep my ownership and buy FlexOptions.  What I did not ask for detail about at the time, is if I do that, how is Vistana going to incorporate my old ownership into the new program (I keep my Nanea deed).
> 
> Sales manager was encouraging me to purchase as many FlexOptions as possible (the 3, 4, 5 star level).  Sales manager was offering me "phantom" FlexOptions based upon up to 3 of my MVCI properties, so that I would get to a higher owner level, and dangled the "benefit" that both MVCI and Vistana were working on developing an exchange rate so that the "currency" of FlexOptions could be used to book MVCI properties, and vice versa.  I was also told that my old Vistana ownership could be counted as well, but I neglected to get all of the details on how.  Thus, for purposes of this forum and discussion, I was using the term "enrollment".  Because I was under the impression that if I bought into the FlexOptions program, if I gained a certain owner star status, then all of my ownership (whether MVCI or Vistana) was going to benefit me so that I could basically flip between MVCI currency (ie DPs) and Vistana currency (ie FlexOptions).  I did not drill down on those details, as I admitted many posts ago, and i should have.  As that is a definite gap.  I don't know the answer to it.  But at no point was I ever referring to resale properties.  And I was also not referring to redeeming my existing Nanea deed for use as a downpayment on FlexOptions.  I told the Vistana sales folks that I have enough DPs to do what I want, and I don't intend to purchase any FlexOptions.  But I really sincerely do want to understand the programs, since I have a vested interest in both.
> 
> Hope that helps.  Sorry for any typos or formatting issues.  Happy travels.



Here is my suggestions to you, of course you have to make your own judgment on it.
1. Whatever you were told by Vistana or Marriott sales managers about the combined program. please forget about everything they said or promised or guaranteed. There is no official announcement yet, all you heard is rumor or BS.
2. Keep your Nanea deed. This is a beautiful resort. You must’ve purchased from Vistana for a lot money, you will have the exactly same benefits as Flex owners. You don’t need Flex right now.
3. You are correct about Westin Flex, which was the Flex they pitched to you, will allow you to book all 23 resorts at 8 months and 8 Westin resorts at 12 months with very limited inventory for Nanea, WKORV/N. Your Nanea can also book all 23 resorts at 8 months and guarantee Nanea inventory at 12 months. I personally like your Nanea over Westin Flex.
4. If you are thinking to buy Flex for the upcoming combined program with MVC, please hold it off. Nothing is announced yet, you want to wait until you know what you are buying first, right?


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## LeslieDet (Aug 28, 2019)

CPNY said:


> So by saying “enrollment” you confuse people with the real term “retro” which is the terminology used by Vistana, applies to resale weeks, hence the confusion. Enrollment is usually referred to MVC legacy and resale weeks purchased before June 2010 I believe for enrollment into the dc program. So really by you saying enrollment, you meant it as a vague term based on your “old” ownership to be “enrolled” in a joint program because a sales rep said it would also count? A joint program that doesn’t exist.
> 
> As you know, your old ownership cannot be incorporated into the new flex VOI but a new flex VOI can retro your “old” ownership IF it is currently not a member of the VSN or have the ability to convert to bonvoy points (mandatory deeds). Again, “retro” or “enrolled” would apply to resale weeks. But now I  understand that you’re saying enrolled as it would pertain to a new joint program with some new exchange currency being dreamed up in sales rooms across the resorts. I will say this. Most reps are probably on here reading these threads because it’s been speculated they could make a Third point program among so many other theories. This is where they get those sales pitches.
> 
> Speaking of theories, You speak of flipping between DP and Star options and some currency exchange based on a joint program a sales rep told you they were working on yet you failed to inquire how your old ownership would fit in?? I would think that would be a burning question.



I hate to go back and forth, but for some reason my communication skills seem to be lacking here -- I've never heard the term "retro" relating to Vistana.  Never.  I ONLY used that term "enrollment" when one of the posters said that it would not be fair to include MVCI enrolled ownership and exclude Vistana old ownership.  So the terminology was simply to equate similar type ownerships.  I started commenting because of the folks who say they just can't wait until the "merger" is complete and then they can use their Vistana ownership to gain status at MVCI.  The OP said that he was going to get 25k-35k in DPs just based upon his Vistana ownership.  I called BS. There is no way that old Vistana week ownership is going to be able to receive DPs without doing anything else.  Thus, if there is going to be a way to count it, there has to be some concept of "enrollment".  I don't have any other term to use in that circumstance.  I'm not being naive, I'm not trying to be vague.  I'm trying to compare apples to apples because of the misinformation that folks were spouting off.  That is all. 

Here is what I know in a vacuum:  My old ownership is not part of the Flex Program UNLESS I MAKE AN AFFIRMATIVE MOVE AND BUY FLEX OPTIONS/POINTS.  

I do believe that MVCI and Vistana are trying to develop an exchange rate between DPs and FlexOptions. (I have never said that there was some futuristic "joint program" as you have coined it.) Otherwise, how in the heck are they going to pitch the bonus of being able to book in the locations where their own resorts are limited?  it is not some currency being "dreamed up" in a sales room.  It is a logical approach between sister corporations to identify how their owners can cross over without needing to utilize the Interval trading platform.  It is NOT a currency.  It is an exchange rate. Something like (my hypothetical) 1 DP = 50 Flex Options.  Something like that.  It is NOT a currency, it is an exchange rate between "currencies" because if you've been paying attention for the past 9 years, DPs are basically equivalent to "money" in the MVCI world.  The "exchange" rate is akin to what happens when you convert dollars to euros.  There is a formula that has a rate. When you use dollars to get euros, you are not getting a third currency.  But you just don't walk up to a window and give them a dollar bill and expect that it magically turns into one euro.  You must know the exchange rate to apply to the currency so that it can be valued appropriately.

I have no clue where you come up with an idea for a "third" point program.  I never said that. I've never heard anyone say that.  I have no clue why you would even attribute that to me.  And, just so you understand, it is NOT a burning question to me as to how my old Vistana ownership fits into the program being pitched by Vistana.  I own a lot of MVCI.  The pitch of gee, buy this and then you'll also have access to be able to get into the MVCI locations means absolutely zero to me.  I own 4 weeks plus DPs. I can travel as much as I want and spend a month abroad each year.  I'm good.  So, why would you think it would be "burning" question.  I don't care about cross-selling.  I like my Nanea ownership and will continue to use it. I didn't have any interest in learning just how many FlexOptions I can have and star level of ownership I would qualify for by Vistana giving me phantom FlexOptions based upon my MVCI ownershihp.  I don't care about booking the various Westin locations, other than where I own.  I can go to Cabo whenever I want. I don't need to stay at the Westin.  It's not even a good location there.  I am not interested in any of their 23 resort locations, so why would I waste yet more time to let them go on ad naseum about all of the benefits that my ownership will bring to me as a FlexOptions owner?  I am not ignorant nor naive and did not fall for the "you'll never be able to get back into Nanea unless you own FlexOptions" pitch nor did I fall for the "you must have FlexOptions because then you can book any of the 8 home resorts in months 9-12 exclusively."  That doesn't interest me.  

Hopefully that answers your apparent "burning questions".  I really went to the Vistana pitch because I wanted to learn about how they were approaching the MVCI sister corporation relationship because that helps me understand what is happening on the MVCI side (when I can hear both sides and then flush out what is consistent and what is not) and they were offering a heck of a lot of BonVoy points for 2 hrs of my time on a Saturday.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 28, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> Here is my suggestions to you, of course you have to make your own judgment on it.
> 1. Whatever you were told by Vistana or Marriott sales managers about the combined program. please forget about everything they said or promised or guaranteed. There is no official announcement yet, all you heard is rumor or BS.
> 2. Keep your Nanea deed. This is a beautiful resort. You must’ve purchased from Vistana for a lot money, you will have the exactly same benefits as Flex owners. You don’t need Flex right now.
> 3. You are correct about Westin Flex, which was the Flex they pitched to you, will allow you to book all 23 resorts at 8 months and 8 Westin resorts at 12 months with very limited inventory for Nanea, WKORV/N. Your Nanea can also book all 23 resorts at 8 months and guarantee Nanea inventory at 12 months. I personally like your Nanea over Westin Flex.
> 4. If you are thinking to buy Flex for the upcoming combined program with MVC, please hold it off. Nothing is announced yet, you want to wait until you know what you are buying first, right?



I've NEVER been interested in FLEX. I have no intent to get rid of what I own at Nanea..  I am aware that my Nanea ownership can book Nanea at 9-12 months and everything else at 8 months.  I also like my Nanea over the Westin Flex Options.  I do not believe that there will EVER be a combined MVCI/Vistana program like so many others do.  I understand the MVCI program extremely well.  The only reason I even jumped on here was to comment that the OP who said he was going to be receiving 25k-35k DPs for his old Vistana weeks was misinformed.  I do not believe that absent his buying FlexOptions and then somehow being able to (for lack of a better term) "enroll" his old Vistana weeks, that he is ever going to see any ability to use his Vistana ownership to get into MVCI (excluding Interval). I've attended 3 MVCI updates this year and I know more about the program than any sales rep I was paired with.  THERE IS NO COMBINED PROGRAM.  There is not going to be a combined program.  That is what I have been trying to tell you guys from my very first comment.  Don't assume that just because you own old Vistana weeks that you'll be able to get into the DP program.  It is not going to happen.  The only thing that makes any sense whatsoever is that there will be an exchange rate between FlexOptions and DPs, that will allow owners from both sides access to the other properties.  But it isn't a new program, it is not a new point program, it is not anything other that a conversion rate so that the two different currencies (ie DPs and FlexOptions) can be valued and then somehow used.  That is a logical approach.  I am being logical.  That is all.  It is extremely far fetched to think that Vistana owners are going to magically be able to use their ownership at MVCI resorts.  There has never been a merger of MVCI and Vistana.  Rather, MVW acquired ILG, which included Vistana (not the Vistana spinoff formed prior to the Marriott/Starwood acquisition), but the Vistana that is a result of the merger between that Vistana spin off by Starwood and ILG.


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## controller1 (Aug 28, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> The Vistana owners will have to clarify this, but based on my understanding, this is NOT correct. I don't think there is an "enrollment" concept in the Vistana program. My understanding is the only thing along those lines that they offer is the "re-qualification" process for Voluntary resale weeks (which don't even have StarOptions), to allow those to have StarOptions. Doing that re-qualification requires a Flex purchase, but someone with a Mandatory week would not have to do that. Also, if someone who owned a Voluntary or Mandatory deed with StarOptions wanted the ability to use the StarOptions value of their week to book one of the Flex resorts from 12-8 months, they could surrender their deed as part of buying into their chosen Flex program and then have full rights for all of their resulting HomeOptions in that Flex program, but they would no longer own their deeded week.  @pchung6, @CPNY, and @controller1, can one of you chime in and clarify this point? Is what @LeslieDet is saying correct? Does a VSE owner who has "old" StarOptions have to "enroll" them in some way to be able to combine them with the so called "FlexOptions" for a booking? (And I know FlexOptions isn't an official name, but I think LeslieDet is using that label to refer to the HomeOptions that come with Flex ownership).



That is correct and I'm impressed with someone not owning Vistana having that good of a grasp on the Vistana program!





CPNY said:


> At 8 months all star options are available for all bookings. If you have flex options and a mandatory week with options, at 8 months they are combined. 12-8 you can only use the options within the realm you own in. Deeded week at home resort or flex options at flex resorts.



Agree 100%





LeslieDet said:


> We know that the Vistana under the ILG umbrella started selling FlexOptions in January 2018.  We know that they want their owners to buy these points reflected by a deed recorded in FL.  We know that they are incentivising those old owners to purchase FlexOptions by offering them full credit of their original purchase price if they will agree to buy the points.  We know that the goal is to get as much of the old inventory moved into the FlexOptions program, since the inventory that went into it was pretty darn limited.  I know from attending the presentation this month that I could buy FlexOptions directly, I could use my existing ownership to purchase FlexOptions, and what I was told, but did not explore, is that I could still keep my ownership and buy FlexOptions.  What I did not ask for detail about at the time, is if I do that, how is Vistana going to incorporate my old ownership into the new program (I keep my Nanea deed).



@LeslieDet I will say that your use of new terms/names for descriptions of Vistana programs has unnecessarily caused confusion.

I have previously owned Sheraton Flex.  In addition to deeded weeks at WKORVN, I currently own both Westin Flex and Nanea through its original Home Options program.  Therefore, I believe I have a well-grounded understanding of the various Vistana flex programs.  And one thing I know is that Vistana does not refer to anything as a FlexOption.  There are Home Options and there are StarOptions, but no FlexOption.

In a previous reply to me you stated "If I've referred to it as Vistana FlexOptions, then I apologize" yet you continue to refer to Vistana FlexOptions when you are discussing the Westin Flex program.  To avoid confusion, why not refer to it by its name known to all Vistana owners?

Vistana did not start selling FlexOptions in January 2018.  They did start selling the Westin Flex program at that time.  The Sheraton Flex program preceded the Westin Flex program.  Both operate identically.

Yes, the goal is to get as much of the deeded weeks into one of the flex programs.  Otherwise, the owners of the flex products will have a difficult time achieving a reservation due to the limited availability in the flex pool. Currently it's not too bad at WKORV or WKORVN but it is a problem currently at Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas.

For reservations at month 8 minus 1 day, one's Home Options within the various Vistana flex programs operate as StarOptions at a 1:1 rate which provides the ability to access all the Vistana properties' available inventory.  And as @JIMinNC and @CPNY have stated, one is unable to mix the Home Options through the various Vistana flex programs with StarOptions through deeded weeks to make any reservation as each reservation during the Home Resort Reservation Period (12-8 months) is limited to each individual ownership pool/bucket.


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## LeslieDet (Aug 28, 2019)

controller1 said:


> That is correct and I'm impressed with someone not owning Vistana having that good of a grasp on the Vistana program!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just so you know, I pulled my notes and the sales reps and sales manager and the paperwork all talked about the Vistana FlexOptions program and then there was a list of the "Westin Flex Home Resorts".  I'm honestly not trying to confuse you guys, I was simply trying to tell the OP that its BS if he thinks he's going to get credit in the DP program for old Vistana ownership.  

Personally, I think the terminology is too confusing, but I believe they do that on purpose.  Why jump between Vistana FlexOptions and Westin Flex Home Resorts"?  I have no clue why they were doing that.  I do not know why you are quibbling about the January 4, 2018 date?  Of course Vistana started selling the FlexOptions then; Vistana is the corporate entity.  Westin is a brand name.  The term "Westin Flex" is a trademarked term owned by Vistana.  I'm not the one who put together the sales pitch that said the FlexOptions were being sold as of 1/4/18.  I really don't understand why you are splitting hairs on that. If you are at all familiar with the MVCI DP program, it is known by multiple names, including "destination points" as well as "vacation club points".  And there are probably a few more names people call it.  Sorry you were so confused.


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## pchung6 (Aug 28, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I've NEVER been interested in FLEX. I have no intent to get rid of what I own at Nanea..  I am aware that my Nanea ownership can book Nanea at 9-12 months and everything else at 8 months.  I also like my Nanea over the Westin Flex Options.  I do not believe that there will EVER be a combined MVCI/Vistana program like so many others do.  I understand the MVCI program extremely well.  The only reason I even jumped on here was to comment that the OP who said he was going to be receiving 25k-35k DPs for his old Vistana weeks was misinformed.  I do not believe that absent his buying FlexOptions and then somehow being able to (for lack of a better term) "enroll" his old Vistana weeks, that he is ever going to see any ability to use his Vistana ownership to get into MVCI (excluding Interval). I've attended 3 MVCI updates this year and I know more about the program than any sales rep I was paired with.  THERE IS NO COMBINED PROGRAM.  There is not going to be a combined program.  That is what I have been trying to tell you guys from my very first comment.  Don't assume that just because you own old Vistana weeks that you'll be able to get into the DP program.  It is not going to happen.  The only thing that makes any sense whatsoever is that there will be an exchange rate between FlexOptions and DPs, that will allow owners from both sides access to the other properties.  But it isn't a new program, it is not a new point program, it is not anything other that a conversion rate so that the two different currencies (ie DPs and FlexOptions) can be valued and then somehow used.  That is a logical approach.  I am being logical.  That is all.  It is extremely far fetched to think that Vistana owners are going to magically be able to use their ownership at MVCI resorts.  There has never been a merger of MVCI and Vistana.  Rather, MVW acquired ILG, which included Vistana (not the Vistana spinoff formed prior to the Marriott/Starwood acquisition), but the Vistana that is a result of the merger between that Vistana spin off by Starwood and ILG.


Just FYI, there is no Flex Options. You probably messed up with Home Options.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 28, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I've NEVER been interested in FLEX. I have no intent to get rid of what I own at Nanea..  I am aware that my Nanea ownership can book Nanea at 9-12 months and everything else at 8 months.  I also like my Nanea over the Westin Flex Options.  I do not believe that there will EVER be a combined MVCI/Vistana program like so many others do.  I understand the MVCI program extremely well.  The only reason I even jumped on here was to comment that the OP who said he was going to be receiving 25k-35k DPs for his old Vistana weeks was misinformed.  I do not believe that absent his buying FlexOptions and then somehow being able to (for lack of a better term) "enroll" his old Vistana weeks, that he is ever going to see any ability to use his Vistana ownership to get into MVCI (excluding Interval). I've attended 3 MVCI updates this year and I know more about the program than any sales rep I was paired with.  THERE IS NO COMBINED PROGRAM.  There is not going to be a combined program.  That is what I have been trying to tell you guys from my very first comment.  Don't assume that just because you own old Vistana weeks that you'll be able to get into the DP program.  It is not going to happen.  The only thing that makes any sense whatsoever is that there will be an exchange rate between FlexOptions and DPs, that will allow owners from both sides access to the other properties.  But it isn't a new program, it is not a new point program, it is not anything other that a conversion rate so that the two different currencies (ie DPs and FlexOptions) can be valued and then somehow used.  That is a logical approach.  I am being logical.  That is all.  It is extremely far fetched to think that Vistana owners are going to magically be able to use their ownership at MVCI resorts.  There has never been a merger of MVCI and Vistana.  Rather, MVW acquired ILG, which included Vistana (not the Vistana spinoff formed prior to the Marriott/Starwood acquisition), but the Vistana that is a result of the merger between that Vistana spin off by Starwood and ILG.



A few points to make about this:

1) I agree 100% that what the OP was told (10 pages of posts ago) was probably BS (Bountiful Speculation) by his sales rep. There may be bits and pieces of what that rep said that eventually prove to be true, but the implication that the proposed purchase would automatically qualify the OP's Vistana weeks was likely BS. The total amount of DPs he would get in such a hypothetical scenario - 25K to 35K - was probably not far off, but I think it was a sales rep speculating about what might happen to try to make the sale.

2) I suspect much of anything you were told in your Vistana presentation about what might be coming probably falls into the same category as #1.

3) When you say "There is not going to be a combined program" and "it is not anything other that a conversion rate", I think that also qualifies as speculation. We don't know. Only senior management at MVW really knows at this point.

4) Item #3 may also be an issue of semantics and what constitutes a "combined program". As I've said repeatedly, no one has seriously suggested that the identities of the Vistana program and the MVC program are going to merge into a single program. I think we all agree there are significant legal and procedural hurdles to that. But based on what MVW executive management has said to the investment community, it sure sounds like they are talking about more than just a conversion rate. I suggest you check out this recent thread concerning the second quarter MVW earnings call: https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...gs-conference-call-integration-update.293553/ In particular, note this quote from the CEO:

*"We also continued our work on enhancing our product offerings across our multiple Marriott brands. As we shared with you previously, we continue to evaluate the various options, and our current plan is to add new enhancements in stages, each building on the strong foundation that we offer customers today. Over time, our goal is to develop an integrated product that leverages all of our Marriott family of brands, providing owners and potential owners an even greater array of vacation destinations and experiences from which to choose. We remain extremely optimistic about its potential, and we’ll have more to say about this in our Investor Day on October 4.”*

While his use of the phrase "integrated product" is vague, the ultimate goal sure sounds like something more than just an exchange rate.

5) It is also important to note that while the MVCI and Vistana programs remain separate from a customer perspective, the oversight and management from MVW has been truly merged under the same executive organization. As the CEO said in the earnings call, they are beginning to bring the best MVC sales and marketing processes to the Vistana sales offices. Both the Vistana sales offices and the MVC sales offices now both report to Brian Miller, the EVP of Marketing, Sales, and Service; they have a single Development and Product Officer, a single Resort management/experience officer, etc. While I'm sure there is some middle-management separation between VSE and MVC as you go further down the organization chart, much of the executive management from ILG has left the company and the senior executives who were previously managing MVCI are now overseeing both MVCI and Vistana programs, as well as the other business lines acquired from ILG. Of the executive team only the executive who leads the Exchange and Third Party Management business is a top-level holdover from ILG. I think you may be underestimating the degree to which MVW has already merged functions now that the acquisition is almost a year old. While everything remains separate from a customer-facing perspective, ILG no longer exists as an entity under the MVW umbrella, as the pieces of ILG have now been re-integrated into the overall MVW management structure. The Vistana, Hyatt, MVC, Ritz, II, VRI, Aqua-Aston, and Trading Places programs, while likely individually-managed at the middle-management level, are all now operating within the same general management structure that once managed MVC and Ritz alone.


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## bazzap (Aug 28, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> Yes, but not post 2010 weeks (for free). Just to clarify.


And not for non US residents.


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## CPNY (Aug 28, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> I hate to go back and forth, but for some reason my communication skills seem to be lacking here -- I've never heard the term "retro" relating to Vistana.  Never.  I ONLY used that term "enrollment" when one of the posters said that it would not be fair to include MVCI enrolled ownership and exclude Vistana old ownership.  So the terminology was simply to equate similar type ownerships.  I started commenting because of the folks who say they just can't wait until the "merger" is complete and then they can use their Vistana ownership to gain status at MVCI.  The OP said that he was going to get 25k-35k in DPs just based upon his Vistana ownership.  I called BS. There is no way that old Vistana week ownership is going to be able to receive DPs without doing anything else.  Thus, if there is going to be a way to count it, there has to be some concept of "enrollment".  I don't have any other term to use in that circumstance.  I'm not being naive, I'm not trying to be vague.  I'm trying to compare apples to apples because of the misinformation that folks were spouting off.  That is all.
> 
> Here is what I know in a vacuum:  My old ownership is not part of the Flex Program UNLESS I MAKE AN AFFIRMATIVE MOVE AND BUY FLEX OPTIONS/POINTS.
> 
> ...


Everything you’re saying is all speculation and contradictions. You can’t sit here and “call BS” as you said, on what the OP speculated that his VSE ownership will get him a certain amount of DC points “without doing anything else” with zero facts of your own. THEN go into your own speculation that you have to enroll your “old Vistana ownership” into something when there is absolutely nothing available to enroll it into. 

Yes retro is a term used by VSE sales, I’ve heard it plenty of times. Being that I own resale and developer weeks they’ve always tried to get me to buy more to “retro” my resale weeks back into their system to count toward elite status. 

I do have some questions. I’m not sure what flexoptions are. How do they differ from home options and star options? How much will I have to pay to enroll my Vistana weeks into the DC and how many DC Points will my ownership in VSE be worth? Will mandatory resale weeks be automatically included or excluded for enrollment? If you can’t answer, then you “calling BS” is just even more speculation. 

I feel like you’re coming at people with speculation you believe to be facts. Then mixing terminology which is adding to confusion. It’s too early to go back but I believe you said they wanted you to buy more phantom flex options to reach a star level which is only available to flex VOI owners (which is false), then add in terms like “enrollment” which sounds a lot like retro a resale week to be brought back into the Vistana Signature Network.  No wonder why there is confusion.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 28, 2019)

I'd like to thank all of the Vistana-savvy people here who are giving me a crash course in those products, and in particular, JIMinNC for his ongoing explanations of how the corporate sides of things have been working since the MVW acquisition. Aside from that, at this point I sincerely hope that IF there is eventually an internal exchange option offered by MVW to owners of every product/brand that now comes under the MVW umbrella (and you all know how relatively easily I think that could happen,) PLEASE all that is holy that it doesn't introduce even more products and terminology into our vocabularies! Eeeeeesh!


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## DannyTS (Aug 28, 2019)

bazzap said:


> And not for non US residents.


Couldn't Canadians enroll their pre-2010 weeks in DC?


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## SueDonJ (Aug 28, 2019)

DannyTS said:


> Couldn't Canadians enroll their pre-2010 weeks in DC?



I think Barry's point has more to do with where the Marriott resorts are located, as opposed to owner residency. I know when I'm trying to explain the basics of the Destination Club I use the 6/20/10 DC inception date as THE date of eligibility for all existing/sold Weeks, but actually that date applied only to Weeks at the US and Caribbean resorts. Euro resorts weren't integrated until 2012, and the Asia-Pacific segments sometime later than that. I'm sorry, Barry, again.


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## teddyo333 (Aug 28, 2019)

LeslieDet said:


> As I've said from my first reply on this thread, I was trying to respond to the comment about waiting for the MVCI and Westin programs to be "merged."  I never wanted to go off on these discussions about all of the changes in Vistana and how things work there; I've admitted that my knowledge base is really focused on MVCI ownership.  So, I'm going to jump off this feed, but just know that the only thing Vistana is selling now is a points based ownership (reflected by a deed recorded in FL).  There are no more sales that are reflected by deeds recorded at the various locations (Hawaii, AZ, FL, CO).  I never paid attention as to how ownership was taken for the Mexican locations, so I am not going to speculate now.  The points based program has options that are used to book stays at the identified resorts.  Those same points aka options are also eligible for BonVoy points, and can be banked and borrowed.  The owner levels have been created to offer benefits and encourage owners to purchase more points aka options.  The more points aka options you have, the better the benefits.  Just like with MVCI.  They cannot do away with the old system, because there are deeds recorded.  So, these programs are running on separate paths. I do not believe that there is ever going to be a "merger" of the MVCI DP program and any of the other timeshare programs that were under the ILG umbrella.
> 
> Happy travels.


I started this thread to inform others of my experience while attending a MVC presentation. I never stated that the program was being merged. And even the sales rep, who I don't believe, was just letting me know of the hypothetical benefits that may be available as a Vistana owner. As I stated before everyone is entitled to their opinion but for anyone to say  what Marriott will or will not do in an environment where people come for advice and information is not very helpful. This is the reason why we should "wait" for the official announcement.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 28, 2019)

teddyo333 said:


> I started this thread to inform others of my experience while attending a MVC presentation. I never stated that the program was being merged. And even the sales rep, who I don't believe, was just letting me know of the hypothetical benefits that may be available as a Vistana owner. As I stated before everyone is entitled to their opinion but for anyone to say  what Marriott will or will not do in an environment where people come for advice and information is not very helpful. This is the reason why we should "wait" for the official announcement.



I get that official announcements are the only thing we can trust to be true. But over the years we've had some fascinating "speculation" discussions in advance of new developments, at least on the Marriott board, and I'm one of many who enjoy those discussions very much. As long as everybody understands that none of us can claim with any certainty what WILL be, and we stick to what MAY be - based on what we do know - what's the harm?


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## bazzap (Aug 28, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> I think Barry's point has more to do with where the Marriott resorts are located, as opposed to owner residency. I know when I'm trying to explain the basics of the Destination Club I use the 6/20/10 DC inception date as THE date of eligibility for all existing/sold Weeks, but actually that date applied only to Weeks at the US and Caribbean resorts. Euro resorts weren't integrated until 2012, and the Asia-Pacific segments sometime later than that. I'm sorry, Barry, again.


You are quite right, the later cutoff date for enrolment of European MVC resorts was June 2012 and for the one Asia resort sold as weeks (PBC) it was August 2016.
I was referring to residency though for the restriction on free enrolment of eligible weeks by attending the webinar.
I can’t immediately find the website link which detailed this, but turkel posted this in April 2018

“*Learn Why Complimentary Enrollment is a Can't Miss Opportunity*
United States residents are invited to join us to learn about the amazing benefits to be had as a member of the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations® Exchange Program. Attend a 45-minute webinar presentation from the convenience of your home. If you choose to enroll your eligible week(s) into the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, you will receive complimentary enrollment of your eligible weeks at the completion of the webinar. 

A variety of learning options are available. Live webinars provide attendees the opportunity to ask questions to the presenter and hear questions from other Owners. However, if these don't fit into your schedule, a pre-recorded option is available on demand. If you are a resident of the United States and would like to proceed, just click on one of the offered dates and times listed to register: 





*Live Webinar*
_Friday April 6, 2018
1 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time_




*Live Webinar*
_Tuesday, April 17, 2018
5 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time_




*Pre-Recorded Webinar*
_On Demand_





Don't miss this opportunity to learn why so many Marriott Vacation Club® Owners have already enrolled in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, expanding their vacation experiences to include cruises and tours, golf packages, vacation homes and adventure travel.

*_This offer is only valid for residents of the United States of America_


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## SueDonJ (Aug 28, 2019)

bazzap said:


> You are quite right, the later cutoff date for enrolment of European MVC resorts was June 2012 and for the one Asia resort sold as weeks (PBC) it was August 2016.
> I was referring to residency though for the restriction on free enrolment of eligible weeks by attending the webinar.
> I can’t immediately find the website link which detailed this, but turkel posted this in April 2018
> 
> ...



Ah, thanks for that, Barry.


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## Fasttr (Aug 28, 2019)

bazzap said:


> I can’t immediately find the website link which detailed this, but turkel posted this in April 2018


Here is the link....  http://img.vacationclubsurvey.com/i...817_webinar_destinations/Webinar_Landing.html


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## Fasttr (Aug 28, 2019)

SueDonJ said:


> PLEASE all that is holy that it doesn't introduce even more products and terminology into our vocabularies! Eeeeeesh!


What...  you don't want to use enrollable retro legacy flexoption homeoption staroption vacation club DC points as your trading currency?


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## LeslieDet (Aug 28, 2019)

CPNY said:


> Everything you’re saying is all speculation and contradictions. You can’t sit here and “call BS” as you said, on what the OP speculated that his VSE ownership will get him a certain amount of DC points “without doing anything else” with zero facts of your own. THEN go into your own speculation that you have to enroll your “old Vistana ownership” into something when there is absolutely nothing available to enroll it into.
> 
> Yes retro is a term used by VSE sales, I’ve heard it plenty of times. Being that I own resale and developer weeks they’ve always tried to get me to buy more to “retro” my resale weeks back into their system to count toward elite status.
> 
> ...



I am not trying to push speculation and BS.  I was simply trying to explain the pitches that were being made based upon a Vistana road show sales pitch, and what is logical vs what is so darn speculative it is really a stretch to even say with a straight face.  Please don't misstate what I said.  There was never a comment about purchasing "phantom" options.  No one ever said anything about buying phantom options to my knowledge, that is something you just said.  I don't know where you get that idea.  I really hate to reiterate it all.  It also seems silly that in a continuous discussion board that a disclaimer must be placed on each and every response; in normal conversation the disclaimers (that this is what was communicated to me in a sales pitch, and that combined with my existing knowledge from the MVCI side, I'm simply trying to understand what potential options will be out there and what is logical vis-a-vis how to make owners of these now sister brands happy) are known and I would assume that they would be respected.  

I'm not making this up - when I attended the sales pitch the program was identified as a Vistana update and the first slide said welcome to the "Westin Flexible Connection."  The sales staff (who was from the Rancho Mirage Westin resort) used the terms "Vistana FlexOptions" "Westin Home Options" "Westin Flex Home Options" "Westin Flex HomeResorts" and just plain old "FlexOptions" - this was both verbally and in the printed information on the screen. I told the sales folks that the different terms were confusing and in fact, my first question was what the heck is going on with the terminology and what happened to the term "StarOptions".  The answer was "Vistana is no longer selling deeded weeks, and is only selling points known as the Westin Flexible Connection program, represented by a deed recorded in FL." 

My discussion about the phantom options was simply to identify the approach Vistana is taking for MVCI owners (both weeks and DPs) to give some recognition to that ownership.  It is not for sale, the concept is that Vistana will recognize my MVCI ownership and count that ownership as "phantom" options that then elevates my owner level within the Vistana program.  If you are at all familiar with the MVCI DP program, you would know that, as an example, Executive level owners are granted "platinum" BonVoy status.  It is a recognition of an owner level.  I did not have to buy anything from BonVoy to be recognized as a platinum level member (meaning, I did not have to earn it the old fashioned way by staying the 600 nights and having 10 years of gold level membership).  

So, if Vistana is going to give me recognition for my MVCI ownership (capping it at some number), in order to give me a higher owner star status in the Westin Flexible Connection program, then it is logical that there may be something similar that MVCI will do for Vistana owners to recognize that separate ownership.  And that concept is what got my attention because the OP was about receiving credit for his Westin ownership in the MVCI Destination Points program.  

But from a logical viewpoint, keep in mind that Vistana is now under the MVW umbrella.  It is a sister corp to MVCI.  MVW made the money off of the MVCI sales to its owners, but MVW did not make the money on the sales of the Vistana, formerly Starwood, timeshare vacation week sales.  That money went to Starwood when Westin (and Sheraton vacation clubs etc) were owned by Starwood.  

We know factually that Starwood and Marriott agreed to a merger on the hotel side.  As part of that transaction, in 2016 Starwood spun off its timeshare business as Vistana.  After the timeshare business then named Vistana was spun off, Vistana merged with a wholly owned subsidiary of ILG. That was also in 2016.  Then, in April 2018, MVW acquired ILG, which included Vistana.  But all of the prior timeshare sales did not financially benefit MVW.  

Thus, I'm suspicious that there is going to be parity among Vistana and MVCI in regards to the owners who bought the timeshare weeks previously being sold by Vistana (and I'm using Vistana to include Starwood prior to the spin off of Vistana, as well as Vistana prior to the MVW acquisition of ILG).  

Thus, I circle back to the OP, as well as various folks who I have seen making comments (not necessarily on this thread) that they just couldn't wait for "the merger" to be complete and to be able to use their Westin weeks to book MVCI locations.  I'm incredibly skeptical that will ever happen, because there was no "merger."  Vistana and MVCI are now sister corporations.  When I've attended sales pitches aka owner updates, I've inquired as to how will the timeshares integrate access without the need to use the Interval platform.  We know now that if I want to use my MVCI ownership to stay at Westin resort, I have to do that via Interval.  I cannot go directly from MVCI to any of the "Vistana" resorts, which include timeshares originally sold as Sheratons and Westins. 

From the MVCI side, not one sales person has stated anything about here how that is going to work.  Rather, the routine sales pitch is there was the acquisition of 46 resorts and Marriott is working on determining how its owners are going to be able to access those new resorts, so when it finally is figured out, you better buy more points now because they are going to be real expensive.  (That's the standard sales pitch I heard and it was consistent among sales folks).  

From the Vistana side, I was told that with Steve Weiss now being the company president that Vistana is operating under, corporate has received significant inquiries from existing Vistana timeshare owners wanting to know how they are going to be able to use their existing ownership to access MVCI locations, and thus sales was instructed to go out and educate its owners about what to expect.  And, I'm confident that there was also the hope that getting out there with the road shows would also increase point sales.

It was from that perspective that the Vistana sales folks pitched the sale of points aka FlexOptions under the banner "Westin Flexible Connection".  I can't answer your questions about how do they differ from home options and star options.  I don't know how old ownership is going to gain access to the "Westin Flexible Connection".  I don't know anything about retro or resale, I'd never heard that term in relation to my existing Vistana ownership at Nanea.  No one said anything to me this month pitching a sale of "retro" Vistana weeks.  Indeed, quite to the contrary, I was advised in no uncertain terms that Vistana is no longer selling timeshare weeks and is only selling points ownership in the FL land trust.

I was told that I could buy into the points program and there would be a way to integrate my existing Vistana ownership (ie still keep my deed), but I did not bother to explore that discussion because: (1) I'd already been there for almost 2 hours, and (2) I have no plan or desire to buy into the Westin Flexible Connection program and I am not going to buy any FlexOptions.  PERIOD.  FULL STOP.  

As part of this thread, JIMinNC was talking about there must be some uniformity in treatment between the old MVCI owners and how they were allowed to enroll their ownership into the DP program and old Vistana owners who should be able to get some sort of credit for those weeks.  That was when we started a discussion, albeit all speculation, regarding the potential (for lack of a better term) enrollment.  It is the CONCEPT of enrollment.  I do not understand why it is difficult to understand the concept.  I never said that it was a done deal, and I was unsure of how it would work, but I was informed by the Vistana sales folks that there would be some way to do it. But I did not care, it is not important to me. Someone else in this feed criticized me for not learning more about that concept.  Ok - whatever, sorry to disappoint that person.  It did not matter to me.  I don't know how someone cannot grasp my statement that I did not care to learn more about that because it was not important to me.

More importantly, back to the Vistana pitch, the big picture concept is that while they do not know how the different name branded resorts could possibly be integrated, the sales manager said that they have been advised that corporate is working to determine an "exchange rate" between the two different "currencies" that exist under the MVW umbrella, that is, the Destination Points program sold by MVCI and the FlexOptions sold by Vistana under the Westin Flexible Connection program.  

This is where the sales pitches actually met.  The Vistana sales staff was pitching buy lots of FlexOptions now in the form of points under the Westin Flexible Connection program, because those are going to be really valuable and the price will go up because in the near future, they will be the currency that is required to be able to access the MVCI resorts. (As you can see, that is quite similar to the MVCI sales pitch of buy more DPs now, because the price will go up and that will be the only way to access the new Westin and Sheraton resorts that were part of the acquisition.)

I don't even recall who it was in this feed, but someone criticized me falsely claiming that I was saying there was a new (third) point program, or something strange like that.  I never said that I suspected there would be a new (third) point program introduced, nor did I ever say that there would be a new program introduced.  I  said that folks need to remember that there was no merger of the programs.  

I do believe that it is logical to attempt to integrate sister brands via an exchange rate that fairly values the different "currencies" owners hold.  This also struck me as very logical given that after the acquisition was announced, I understood that as to the existing timeshare resorts that had been branded Westin or Sheraton, MVW was taking over operational management of the previously sold ownership, and was also obtaining all unsold inventory, and it was that unsold inventory that MVW would then be focused on selling or marketing in the future.  No, I was never told that the inventory was going to continue to be sold directly, which is why the concept of the Vistana land trust selling points as the Westin Flexible Connection, pitching 8 "home" resorts accessible with FlexOptions made logical sense.  Operations continue at each former Starwood timeshare resort, and there would not be any operational impact, old owners would still be able to book their weeks as they have been when it was managed by Starwood, and that the "old" and "new" would basically be on parallel paths.  All new sales would be a different program than the old sales.  It looks like that is indeed what has transpired.  We are continuing to see the reveal of how the timeshare ownership worlds will co-exist under the MVW umbrella.  So, IMO, an exchange rate makes sense.  

I really hope that answers your questions.  I do not know any other way to make it clear that I'm not trying to simply speculate and toss BS against the wall.  It is very complicated.


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## tshd (Aug 28, 2019)

After reading all these posts about the many iterations of the Vistana program, I'm feeling as though there would need to be a completely separate program rather than just an exchange rate.  While I don't own Vistana, I do own DVC which is much more like Vistana than DCP as in both Vistana and DVC have an extended home booking priority.  In the DC program, there is no "home" resort.  It seems to me that there would need to be some way to preserve that home priority and block others who don't own in that group from booking until the home priority is lifted.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that priority is guaranteed, otherwise what is the point of the different types of Flex programs.  This is why I speculated earlier that I thought a combined program will have more effect on DP owners than on Vistana.

It's a given that everyone is guaranteed a week at their home resort if they so choose, that is why most folks would never sell back a week for points. The mantra here is that with DC nothing changed for weeks owners in the trading world either, a week deposited in DC means one less owner trying to trade in II; I beg to differ.  While this is true on the surface, if I always used to deposit a Hawaii l/o into II and now I don't, that means there are two less Hawaii weeks in II.  Multiply that by many owners and I would say that is a significant difference. If I had been used to easily using my summer desert week for an II match into Hawaii.  I know folks are still able to do this if they know how to use the system, but I'm pretty sure great trades used to be easier prior to the introduction of DCP. It's not all Henny Penny.  Since some folks have a substantial amount of money in TS and have been used to how the game is currently played, I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder how a change might effect their ownership, for better or worse, rather than just sitting back and waiting for a surprise announcement, like what happened overnight with DCP.  I think that was the point of the OP posting what he heard in the first place.  It is all just speculation, but so is a puzzle, without the picture on the box, until it gets completed.  Does it mean that people never attempt the puzzle just because they don't know what the end result will be; I don't think so! 

So here are some of my suppositions.

If there are a fixed number of units available per week in a particular resort in WestinFlex and an owner elects to go to Marriott instead of another unit in WestinFlex, wouldn't that unit need to be in a separate pot, so that DC members don't have access to all WestinFlex units that are available during the home priority.  Or would that unit somehow need to be preserved for other WestinFlex owners during that period.  In DVC, I can borrow points from another ownership, but I can't use those points (even combined with my home points) to book during the home priority.  This seems very similar to the way that HomeOptions cannot be combined with StarOptions during the home priority period, because they are attached to different inventory.  Just because I transfer points out of one ownership into another, it doesn't mean that any reservations are open to "non home" owners, it just means that there is more inventory for home resort owners to book because I am no longer playing in that pool of inventory.  It seems to me that Vistana would work the same way, but I'm not familiar with the legalities of Vistana ownership.

At any rate, I'm pretty sure that home priority needs to be protected, therefore, doesn't it seem more likely that Vistana owners will gravitate more toward DCP reservations (especially in areas where the inventory overlaps, namely Hawaii) since there is no home priority to contend with and anyone can book at 12 months or 13 months if they have enough points to have priority.  Am I wrong to think it would be disruptive to me to allow someone who has a ton of StarOptions bought resale to have priority over me as an existing DCP member, if an enrollment offer was made to Vistana owners that is similar to the original DCP enrollment?  But because of the way DCP is structured with no home priority, I believe that there is nothing preventing MVCI from offering anything they wish to offer when it comes to DCP. And while it might piss some people off, it also provides an incentive to buy more points.

I know I'm opening myself up to criticism, but does anyone think I'm way off base with my thinking, even though it is all just speculation?


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## tshd (Aug 28, 2019)

The one thing we all know for sure is that MVW(?) will do whatever makes more money!!


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## kds4 (Aug 28, 2019)

Fasttr said:


> What...  you don't want to use enrollable retro legacy flexoption homeoption staroption vacation club DC points as your trading currency?



You forgot 'supercharged' ...


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## CPNY (Aug 28, 2019)

kds4 said:


> You forgot 'supercharged' ...


What about the ability to voluntarily use mandatory flex DC Options?


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## SGould (Aug 28, 2019)

I am at Westin Los Cabos and they haven’t even offered an owners update.  I really wanted to attend to question them on everything mentioned in multiple threads.


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## CPNY (Jan 23, 2020)

CPNY said:


> *I don’t even think his will happen in 2020. We may see some benefit such as interchangeable priority across brands through interval in the short term.*


I was on it back in August LOL


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## pchung6 (Jan 25, 2020)

CPNY said:


> I was on it back in August LOL


I remember not many listened that time. 

I think it’s Vistana owners gain a lot by having 2nd priority in Marriott exchange. Now Vistana owners can really explore to more locations.

For MVC owners having 2nd priority into Vistana really add nothing. They will not have any chance to exchange into St John, Harborside or Nanea/Maui. Cancun and Los Cobos will probably the only exchanges available outside of Vistana priority.


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## CPNY (Jan 25, 2020)

pchung6 said:


> I remember not many listened that time.
> 
> I think it’s Vistana owners gain a lot by having 2nd priority in Marriott exchange. Now Vistana owners can really explore to more locations.
> 
> For MVC owners having 2nd priority into Vistana really add nothing. They will not have any chance to exchange into St John, Harborside or Nanea/Maui. Cancun and Los Cobos will probably the only exchanges available outside of Vistana priority.


They will prob get nanea I would think. But correct, I’ve never seen harborside in interval even as a harborside owner! Forget St John. I’d assume that would be difficult. But this helps us. On it from the get go lol


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## pchung6 (Jan 25, 2020)

Looks like both DC points and Staroptions will stay. There will be a exchange currency ratio for both programs, and it seems both programs will stay intact.


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## CPNY (Jan 25, 2020)

pchung6 said:


> Looks like both DC points and Staroptions will stay. There will be a exchange currency ratio for both programs, and it seems both programs will stay intact.


What makes you say that? That’s what I said originally. That you would have to deposit/convert your current out of respective networks into another network and book with inventory MVC controls as well as what’s being converted. But others know more about inventory trust legality more than I do. Either way, the step one interval priority exchange was correctly speculated.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 25, 2020)

pchung6 said:


> Looks like both DC points and Staroptions will stay. There will be a exchange currency ratio for both programs, and it seems both programs will stay intact.


Still seems to be speculation from a sales rep? We have no idea how any of this will work yet. I attended another presentation at SVV today for 25K Bonvoy points. They tried touting the VSN will go away bit again until challenged, then it would be that inventory would simply dwindle inside VSN when people start converting over. I challenged saying that as of 10 years after Marriott switched to DC, only about 50% of their ownership has actually enrolled their weeks in DC. So I suspect inventory will live on inside VSN for quite a while, especially if they try to extract some type of initiation fee to participate in a new program.


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## CPNY (Jan 25, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Still seems to be speculation from a sales rep? We have no idea how any of this will work yet. I attended another presentation at SVV today for 25K Bonvoy points. They tried touting the VSN will go away bit again until challenged, then it would be that inventory would simply dwindle inside VSN when people start converting over. I challenged saying that as of 10 years after Marriott switched to DC, only about 50% of their ownership has actually enrolled their weeks in DC. So I suspect inventory will live on inside VSN for quite a while, especially if they try to extract some type of initiation fee to participate in a new program.


Well if inventory dwindles then I guess we would be able to enroll our SVV weeks into something new? Unless they sell SVV off which is a concern in the back of my mind. The new CEO said something about evaluating locations where they have redundant properties. Orlando comes to mind. I wonder if they would keep SVR over SVV.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 25, 2020)

CPNY said:


> Well if inventory dwindles then I guess we would be able to enroll our SVV weeks into something new? Unless they sell SVV off which is a concern in the back of my mind. The new CEO said something about evaluating locations where they have redundant properties. Orlando comes to mind. I wonder if they would keep SVR over SVV.


Or if they only allow Flex and DC trusts to enroll in whatever is new. That seems to be what was implied today.


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## CPNY (Jan 25, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Or if they only allow Flex and DC trusts to enroll in whatever is new. That seems to be what was implied today.


Ah right, yeah that bag of goods was sold to me when they tried getting me to retro mandatory deeds buy buying a flex plan saying owning flex is the only way to play in a new system. This was a year ago. Well how does that bring HRA into play? Since that’s not part of flex.....I guess I’ll be good with that inventory. Not to mention plenty of mandatory owners aren’t giving back their weeks so; most of the good resorts are either not in flex (WSJ/HRA) or are mandatory deeds being held onto like those who own WKORV/N so I think VSN owners should be A-OK.


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## pchung6 (Jan 25, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Or if they only allow Flex and DC trusts to enroll in whatever is new. That seems to be what was implied today.


This is what I was told few weeks ago with an VSN sales call. He tried to convince me to retro mandatory weeks with $10k. I said until I know What will happen to VSN, I have no interest in retro. That sales said “I guarantee VSN will stay.”


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## CPNY (Jan 25, 2020)

pchung6 said:


> This is what I was told few weeks ago with an VSN sales call. He tried to convince me to retro mandatory weeks with $10k. I said until I know What will happen to VSN, I have no interest in retro. That sales said “I guarantee VSN will stay.”


A year ago I Was told “this is the last month it’s going to be 10K to retro” I guess it was the last month every month for a year hahah. Once the VSN goes away, so do I  as I maintained, It could be possible only flex, developer sold contracts, and retroactive resales could be eligible to be part of a new program and all other mandatory resales would stay in VSN without being able to play. Maybe they read these and like my ideas. In which case I have many and would be willing to consult.  Ya here that MVC....... pay me lol

when the above happens I’ll make sure to come back here and point that out LOL


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## JIMinNC (Jan 26, 2020)

pchung6 said:


> Looks like both DC points and Staroptions will stay. There will be a exchange currency ratio for both programs, and it seems both programs will stay intact.



What Executive Management said back in October during their Investor Day presentation on Wall Street was "a common points currency" would be coming in second half 2020. I think that could be some exchange ratio as you suggest. But he then went on to say that a second phase with a timetable TBD would be transitioning to selling one single points product across all of the Marriott/Westin/Sheraton brands. So seemingly, after Phase 2 is implemented either StarOptions, Destination Points, or both would disappear, at least for new sales. One of the two existing may be chosen as the survivor or a totally new product t developed. I assume existing owners could not be forced to convert to the new product, and whatever common points currency/exchange ratio is developed for Phase 1 would continue to function for those who do not "upgrade".


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## JIMinNC (Jan 26, 2020)

CPNY said:


> The new CEO said something about evaluating locations where they have redundant properties. Orlando comes to mind. I wonder if they would keep SVR over SVV.



There were statements made in the last earnings call about disposition of non-strategic assets, or something phrased like that. Some here on TUG read that to mean they might divest some of the resorts, but I think they were mainly talking about undeveloped land which they no longer need.


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## CPNY (Jan 26, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> There were statements made in the last earnings call about disposition of non-strategic assets, or something phrased like that. Some here on TUG read that to mean they might divest some of the resorts, but I think they were mainly talking about undeveloped land which they no longer need.


I hope that’s what he meant. I’d hate to leave the VSE/MVC umbrella. I thought I read there was undeveloped land in SVV they sold?


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## dioxide45 (Jan 26, 2020)

CPNY said:


> I hope that’s what he meant. I’d hate to leave the VSE/MVC umbrella. I thought I read there was undeveloped land in SVV they sold?


They haven't sold the undeveloped land at SVV yet, or at least if they have it isn't announced. They did sell off some land at Harbour Lake a while back.


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## CPNY (Jan 26, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> They haven't sold the undeveloped land at SVV yet, or at least if they have it isn't announced. They did sell off some land at Harbour Lake a while back.


HL is maybe what I was thinking of. I just hope they keep SVV in network. I’d think they would.


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## JIMinNC (Jan 26, 2020)

Also FYI @CPNY and @dioxide45, this is from a December 19 press release. Seems to support the theory that the strategic dispositions are undeveloped parcels:

*ORLANDO, Fla., Dec. 19, 2019 /PRNewswire/ -- Marriott Vacations Worldwide (NYSE: VAC) announced today that it has closed the sale of excess parcels in Cancun, Mexico and Avon, Colorado for more than $60 million as part of its strategic decision to reduce holdings in markets where it has excess supply.

"This is the first step in our strategy to dispose of $160 million to $220 million of non-strategic assets, which we announced during our recent investor day," said John Geller, executive vice president and chief financial and administrative officer.  

The Company expects to report a gain from the sales, which will be excluded from its 2019 Adjusted EBITDA, and cash proceeds will be excluded from its Adjusted Free Cash Flow. *


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