# HCC Associate vs. PE Premier Preview



## GOLFNBEACH

While doing my due diligence on HCC I came across the Private Escapes Premier Preview membership option.  I already own a HGVC week and at this time in my life do not have time for more than 2 additional weeks of vacation.

HCC Associate - $30,000 membership, $3,500 annual, 15 days.  80% refundable.

PE Premier Preview - $50,000 membership, $4,600 annual, 14 days, plus nightly fee of $82. 100% REFUNDABLE.  

Does PE Premier Review allow me the same scheduling benefits of Premier? (1 to 14 days advance registration, fewer holidays than HCC, advantage of 7 days reciprocity to Platinum or Pinnacle.)  

At some point in the future I could upgrade to take advantage of unlimited use.

Can anyone else provide more details to help me make a more informed decision?  Thanks for all the help on this wornderful forum.


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## pwrshift

Is this the PE site .. I couldn't get it to go anywhere meaningful or even search their inventory or fee programs.  Very strange and less than impressive.

Brian

http://www.privateescapes.com/


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## capjak

pwrshift said:


> Is this the PE site .. I couldn't get it to go anywhere meaningful or even search their inventory or fee programs.  Very strange and less than impressive.
> 
> Brian
> 
> http://www.privateescapes.com/



That is the site. It has dropdown menus etc.. you just have to play awhile to figure it out.  PE has more places/homes than HCC but I higher fees.  you pay the 4600 and than have to pay daily $82...


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## Steamboat Bill

"Vinyarder" is the only PE member on TUG and he just joined HCC and is a member of TWO destination clubs. Perhaps he can provide some input for you.


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## LTTravel

GOLFNBEACH said:


> While doing my due diligence on HCC I came across the Private Escapes Premier Preview membership option.  I already own a HGVC week and at this time in my life do not have time for more than 2 additional weeks of vacation.
> 
> HCC Associate - $30,000 membership, $3,500 annual, 15 days.  80% refundable.
> 
> PE Premier Preview - $50,000 membership, $4,600 annual, 14 days, plus nightly fee of $82. 100% REFUNDABLE.
> 
> Does PE Premier Review allow me the same scheduling benefits of Premier? (1 to 14 days advance registration, fewer holidays than HCC, advantage of 7 days reciprocity to Platinum or Pinnacle.)
> 
> At some point in the future I could upgrade to take advantage of unlimited use.
> 
> Can anyone else provide more details to help me make a more informed decision?  Thanks for all the help on this wornderful forum.



PE is definately more expensive that HCC for a similar home price point ($800-$850,000- though I think that the HCC homes are nicer but PE has a few more benefits. (eg. New York, 1600 Broadway HCC one bedroom, PE studio, LaCosta HCC 2 bedroom, PE 1 bedroom, Waikaloa HCC 3 bedroom, PE 2 bedroom) The two programs you are comparing are not equivalent. The PE Premier Review is a "trial" program similar to the one week trial membership that just expired on HCC. The trial programs are 100% refundable. Though you can continue with PE's "trial membership" forever, I think that HCC's trial membership eventually has to be either upgraded or cancelled- (I would check with them directly) HCC's and PE's full programs are both 80% refundable. If you call them up, they may be willing to give you the trial membership at HCC which just expired yesterday if you are interested. Why not consider a trial at HCC and a Lite at DHH? $20,000(100% refundable) + $25,000(80% refundable), yearly $8750 yearly dues ($1750 + $7000), 14 days. VS. PE $50,000(100% refundable) plus $5748 yearly dues, 14 days. But with this you get much greater variety for just $3000 more per year, not to mention DHH's $1000 food credit, airport transfers ($300 value) and car rental ($800 value) and breakfast and laundry service ($250 value) making them almost equal.


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## pwrshift

The corporate membership is the only one I'd ever be interested in so I could use membership for customer use, employee use, family & relatives, etc., so that I would NOT have to be there to supervise them like children.

I'm assuming that you can do that quite freely .. ie. run a contest and a customer wins and gets a week.

In addition...if you took a trial (no doubt they'll offer them again) on a low level membership would the 'corp' prices and benefits be locked in at the current price?

Brian



GOLFNBEACH said:


> ...At some point in the future I could upgrade to take advantage of unlimited use.
> .


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## vineyarder

> Does PE Premier Review allow me the same scheduling benefits of Premier? (1 to 14 days advance registration, fewer holidays than HCC, advantage of 7 days reciprocity to Platinum or Pinnacle.)
> 
> At some point in the future I could upgrade to take advantage of unlimited use.
> 
> Can anyone else provide more details to help me make a more informed decision? Thanks for all the help on this wornderful forum.



As I understand it, PE Premiere Preview membership does allow you all the scheduling flexibility of PE Premiere, and allows you to book any holiday except Xmas or New Years as far in advance as you'd like, as well as booking long weekends far in advance (if you wish).  You are limited to 14 nights per year, but as mentioned previously, unlike the HCC trial, you can continue in the PE Previews plan as long as you want, maintaining the 100% refundability of your deposit.  



> I think that HCC's trial membership eventually has to be either upgraded or cancelled- (I would check with them directly)



Yes, this is true; up or out after 1 year.



> If you call them up, they may be willing to give you the trial membership at HCC which just expired yesterday if you are interested.



They have removed the 'expires August 31 2007' from their website, so it looks like the trial program is still an option.



> PE is definately more expensive that HCC for a similar home price point



Since you can only do the HCC trial for one year before 'up or out' (and it only includes 7 nights), if you compare HCC Associate membership with PE Premiere, and assume that the nonrefundable portion of the HCC deposit is amortized over a 10 year holding period, then the cost per night for HCC is $373 per night, and the cost for PE Premiere Preview is $589 per night, so PE is definately more expensive, BUT with PE Premiere Preview you can book spring break, President's week, July 4th, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, etc., and you can use your 14 nights in any combination from 1 night stays to a 14 night stays, arriving and departing on any day ofthe week, so you could concievably book a 7 night spring break week plus a 4 night Thanksgiving break plus a 3 night July 4th break, and book them all a year in advance (or even further), whereas with HCC Associate you can only book in 7 day increments, arriving on a set day, and you cannot book any of the holidays, and only 1 reservation can be booked as a long-term reservation, so you get *a lot *more flexibility with PE Premiere Preview.  So it really comes down to your personal needs; i.e. how you plan to use the clubs.  If holidays (other than Xmas/NY) are important to you, and/or you need/want to plan ahead for all/most of your travel, and/or you need/want the ability to book short-stays, then the flexibility of PE Premiere Preview is worth the extra cost.  OTOH, if you do not need/want to travel on holidays, and are fine with 7 day stays, one booked up to a year in advance and one 90 days out, then HCC Associate is the better deal.

All that being said, I see the two clubs as being very complementary, and being a member of both covers all needs (at least on paper; I just joined HCC yesterday).  

There is really no reason not to join HCC as a trial member, since the entry point is so low ($20K), the annual dues very low ($1750 for 7 nights), and the risk essentially zero (since the deposit is 100% refundable, the only risk is if the company failed, which is pretty unlikely given their current finances/assets).  The only downside is the 1 year 'up or out' rule.  Since PE Premiere Preview is also extremely low downside (since deposit is 100% refundable), but can be permanent, why not join both clubs, giving you 21 nights usage over the next year, with a 7 day long-term advanced reservation via HCC and whatever usage you want of the 14 nights in PE, at a cost of a $70K deposit (100% refundable) and annual dues of $6350, giving you 21 nights at an average cost of $469, way less than the cost of renting a comparable property (especially at holiday/high season rates)...  Then at the end of the year, you decide whether to upgrade the HCC membership and/or continue with PE Preview or drop both or keep both!


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## pwrshift

And can anyone show us what those 'financials' are ... in detail ... or do you have to sign up, pay up, and shut up when/if you see them?   If the members are financing their company and assets, I think they should disclose everything, private or not.  Donald Trump finances on other peoples money too, but at least he's regulated by the SEC.

Brian



vineyarder said:


> ....the only risk is if the company failed, which is pretty unlikely given their current finances/assets). !


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## LTTravel

Vineyarder,

PE is definately a player in the DC market. It is run by Rich Keith who used to work for Tanner and Haley and left to start his own company when he realized that Tanner and Haley was not run properly. I think that it is structured and run well. But I did not know that you can book more than one holiday more than one year in advance and for less than a week. Is this theoretical or is it really possible? What are the booking rules?


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## LTTravel

pwrshift said:


> And can anyone show us what those 'financials' are ... in detail ... or do you have to sign up, pay up, and shut up when/if you see them?   If the members are financing their company and assets, I think they should disclose everything, private or not.  Donald Trump finances on other peoples money too, but at least he's regulated by the SEC.
> 
> Brian



I hope you didn't invest in his Atlantic City properties. All bankrupt.


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## GOLFNBEACH

vineyarder said:


> The only downside is the 1 year 'up or out' rule.  Since PE Premiere Preview is also extremely low downside (since deposit is 100% refundable), but can be permanent, why not join both clubs, giving you 21 nights usage over the next year, with a 7 day long-term advanced reservation via HCC and whatever usage you want of the 14 nights in PE, at a cost of a $70K deposit (100% refundable) and annual dues of $6350, giving you 21 nights at an average cost of $469, way less than the cost of renting a comparable property (especially at holiday/high season rates)...  Then at the end of the year, you decide whether to upgrade the HCC membership and/or continue with PE Preview or drop both or keep both!



A week ago I was in the market to buy a used timeshare in Florida for golf and beach use, and now I am actually considering (am I crazy) dropping $70K on joining both clubs as vineyarder describes.

I love the price point of HCC but I want the reservation flexibility of PE.


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## LTTravel

GOLFNBEACH said:


> A week ago I was in the market to buy a used timeshare in Florida for golf and beach use, and now I am actually considering (am I crazy) dropping $70K on joining both clubs as vineyarder describes.
> 
> I love the price point of HCC but I want the reservation flexibility of PE.



I think that you will like a DC much more than a Timeshare. You can drop your DC membership much easier than reselling your Timeshare. Timeshares offer little flexibility and the trading opportunities that they claim are MUCH more difficult than they claim.


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## vineyarder

> But I did not know that you can book more than one holiday more than one year in advance and for less than a week. Is this theoretical or is it really possible? What are the booking rules?



It is definately possible, not just theoretical.  I have Thanksgiving, Xmas, and Spring Break all booked within the next 7 months... Xmas and New Years are allocated via a lotterty held 13 months in advance; the more places and dates you request (i.e. the more flexible you are), the more likely you are to get one of your choices, and if you don't, you get priority for the following year.  All other 'holidays' are first-come, first-serve, booked as far in advance as you want; the only restrictions on the other major holidays (Thanksgiving, Spring Break, and President's week) are that you cannot use the reciprocal properties (i.e. Premiere can only use Premiere properties those periods, can't upgrade to Platinum or Pinnacle Property).  The counter-balance to the first-come, first-serve system is that while you have unlimited usage, you can only have 28 days reserved at a time (14 for Previews members)... So someone could book the next 4 years President's week, but then they would have no reservation days left to use the rest of the year.  This seems to work quite well, with very few people actually booking greater than a year in advance, unless it is a very special event, like a wedding or reunion.  For example, right now, in Premiere, there are about a dozen homes open over Thanksgiving, and for Spring Break / Easter week there are still numerous options open, including Cabo and Hawaii.

Personally, I find that I keep 3 long-term reservations on the books, and usually try to leave about 7 days open for shorter term bookings and long weekends, which I re-book over the course of the year as I use them.  In terms of duration, you can book anywhere from 1 night to 14 nights, arriving and departing on any day.  Fabulous flexibility.


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## vineyarder

> I think that you will like a DC much more than a Timeshare. You can drop your DC membership much easier than reselling your Timeshare. Timeshares offer little flexibility and the trading opportunities that they claim are MUCH more difficult than they claim.



Amen!  The success rate for Four Seasons Aviara or Four Seasons Scottsdale trading into Four Seasons Jackson Hole was 0% in 2006, despite over 200 requests, and the sucess rate for trades between Aviara and Scottsdale was in the low teens.


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## GOLFNBEACH

LTTravel said:


> I think that you will like a DC much more than a Timeshare. You can drop your DC membership much easier than reselling your Timeshare. Timeshares offer little flexibility and the trading opportunities that they claim are MUCH more difficult than they claim.



That is the reason that I am considering the PE trial over the HCC trial (or associate) even though the price is much higher.

1. With PE I can get 100% of my membership fee back at any time.  With HCC once I join I only get 80% back.

2. With PE I think I will actually get a better feel of how the club works and how flexible it actually is.  With HCC I am only picking one non-holiday week so I will never know how easy (or difficult) it would be to actually get the locations and times I want.

Some thoughts running through my head:

1. From the PE website under FAQs something I really like (just like most country clubs) "A sound financial structure and unprecedented transparency, including independently audited financial summaries available each year to members, an elected board of managers with voting and oversight powers, and a Members Only website that tracks all performance aspects of the Club."

2. The value side (cheap side) of me really likes the HCC price point.

3. I don't like the extra per night fee with PE.


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## vineyarder

*Forgot to mention Reciprocal usage*



> PE is definately more expensive, BUT with PE Premiere Preview you can book spring break, President's week, July 4th, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, etc., and you can use your 14 nights in any combination from 1 night stays to a 14 night stays, arriving and departing on any day ofthe week, so you could concievably book a 7 night spring break week plus a 4 night Thanksgiving break plus a 3 night July 4th break, and book them all a year in advance (or even further), whereas with HCC Associate you can only book in 7 day increments, arriving on a set day, and you cannot book any of the holidays, and only 1 reservation can be booked as a long-term reservation, so you get a lot more flexibility with PE Premiere Preview. So it really comes down to your personal needs; i.e. how you plan to use the clubs. If holidays (other than Xmas/NY) are important to you, and/or you need/want to plan ahead for all/most of your travel, and/or you need/want the ability to book short-stays, then the flexibility of PE Premiere Preview is worth the extra cost. OTOH, if you do not need/want to travel on holidays, and are fine with 7 day stays, one booked up to a year in advance and one 90 days out, then HCC Associate is the better deal.



Forgot  to mention earlier, but with PE Premiere you also get the option of 7 days per year of reciprocal usage of homes in Platinum (avg. $1.6M) or Pinnacle (avg. $3.5M - $4M), albeit at a higher nightly rate.  I'm not sure whether this applies to the Preview membership, however.


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## LTTravel

GOLFNBEACH said:


> 3. I don't like the extra per night fee with PE.



Just consider the yearly dues as $5748 and ignore the daily fees. Remember, the full membership of PE includes unlimited nights which does not apply to the trial membership. The daily fee is a carryover from Tanner and Haley which also had unlimited utilization. It is a way of making members who use the club more, pay a little more. I think that it is a very fair way of designing a club with unlimited utilization. If  I was  a member and used only 28 days in an unlimited membership in a year, I would like to know that I paid less than someone who used it 60 days.


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## Steamboat Bill

I am glad to see TUGers consider joining TWO destination clubs as I posted a thread here several months ago exploring this concept.

I should probably SELL all my timeshares and vaction properties and join several clubs.

I like HCC, PE, BelleHavens, and the new DHH.


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## LTTravel

Steamboat Bill said:


> I am glad to see TUGers consider joining TWO destination clubs as I posted a thread here several months ago exploring this concept.
> 
> I should probably SELL all my timeshares and vaction properties and join several clubs.
> 
> I like HCC, PE, BelleHavens, and the new DHH.



I agree with you. Other DC's to consider

Quintess had a great program also which expired in March. They would refund 80% of the current fee of membership for their charter membership and it has already gone up from $345,000 to $395,000 and will probably go up again soon. With the quality of their properties and service, it was a good deal. Now they only give you 80% back
Lusso is definately worth looking at for a higher end club and I think currently a good deal. They give you back 100% of your membership fee plus 50% of any appreciation. They started at $325,000 and are currently at $375,000 and going up to $395,000 on September 15. So if you had joined in January, your membership will be worth $360,000 now or a 10.8% gain in 8 months. This will probably expire soon. They also offer unlimited useage. I heard a rumor that they will be announcing 3 more homes after the price increase September 15. I don't remember where I read that. 
PE also had a 100% refund policy which I think also ended this year. Early members also got a fraction of the real estate appreciation back to cover some of their yearly dues.


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## Kagehitokiri

so total "annual" fees of PE premiere preview is $5748. 
i cant imagine they allow reciprocity in the premiere preview membership...
but if they do, i might consider joining just for 1 trip. 
(like the 2 watercolor resort properties for example - 7BR total)

one comparison re properties >
PE premiere's punta mita property is beachfront with infinity pool.
HCC has 3 ski-in/ski-out townhomes.


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## LTTravel

Kagehitokiri said:


> i one comparison re properties >
> PE premiere's punta mita property is beachfront with infinity pool.




The photo is not clear. Maybe someone who has been there can clarify. You can't get a good view of the home from the photos. But here is a description of La Playa Estates from 2004. Prices and values have incrased since then. 

La Playa Estates

Costa Banderas
The La Playa Estates development consists of seven beachfront estate homes and 19 well-appointed ocean view homes set along a two-mile stretch of sandy beach. The beachfront homes feature their own private pools, unique floor plans and excellence in construction, finishings and services, all with panoramic views and direct beach access. The ocean view homes are built on two elevated terraces that offer unobstructed views of the bay. Standard amenities include, but are not limited to, Subzero refrigerator, Dacor oven and stove, Bosh dishwasher, granite counter tops, covered two-car garage, marble flooring, Primavera wood carpentry and PVC and aluminum windows Exclusive for 26 owners, the beach clubhouse and spa area features a meandering infinity pool with built-in sun lounges, swim-up bar and facilities for entertaining large groups. There are also tennis and paddleball courts on the premises. La Playa Estates is located near Estiladeras Beach at Km 8.3 on the highway to Punta de Mita. Unit prices range from $650,000 to $1,200,000 USD. Title insurance is available. For more information, contact laplayarealty@hotmail.com or (329) 291-7062.


I think that the PE home is one of the "Ocean View" homes, not the "Beachfront Estates"


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## Kagehitokiri

this picture clearly shows direct beach access.

http://images.private-escapes.com/site2/pe/Punta_Mita,_Mexico.prop/lrg-Pool.jpg
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=385007&postcount=19

edit - ah, i see what youre saying now. fortunately this clears things up >

http://www.lapuntarealty.com/casadelasflores/index.htm

so PE's is a 3BR beachfront home, and the 4BR would have been $1.2MM. so they got a fairly good deal, just not sure how much. regardless of how much though, it means its not directly comparable to HCC (like i did earlier) because its value is higher than acquisition cost.


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## LTTravel

The picture of the outside of the house shows only the front door and back. I would like to see a full picture of the house. The descriptions states "15 paces from your home is the pool" 
From the photos, if you look at the front and back of the house, you do not see the pool. From the living room, if you look out, there is a large grass area before the water, and no pool. There is a picture of a hallway and the pool on the otherside. I don't get the layout.


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## Kagehitokiri

if you look at the realty site i linked, the pool is actually quite a distance (30-40 feet?) from the 4BR that is for sale. from the aerial shots, it seems that distance varies for each of the 7 beachfront properties.

PE could definitely have gotten some better pictures, or even give a fuller property layout, rather than just interior floorplan. kind of like http://www.exclusiveresorts.com/images/destinations/TUS-fp-mainlevel.jpg


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## LTTravel

Kagehitokiri said:


> http://www.lapuntarealty.com/casadelasflores/index.htm



If this is what it looks like, I would say it is pretty nice.


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## Kagehitokiri

the 4BR definitely seems to have a nicer layout, but thats to be expected.

maybe thats how they negotiated the price down for the 3BR, because the layout seems kind of strange


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## pwrshift

This is nonsense as you are not comparing apples to apples.  Much like someone comparing casinos to condo-hotels in another post above.  

You can buy a Marriott Manor Club platinum week for $7500 resale which has an annual maintenance of $730 AND includes six free rounds of golf on the 54 hole Ford's Colony Golf Course.  It buys you into the Marriott 'family' that you know will be around tomorrow and is one of the top quality resorts in the system...on which you'd get every penny back if you resold in 7 days on Ebay, probably even from Marriott!  In addition, it's about as close to a beach (30 min) as most of the cheap DC's most of you are considering.  As Bill will discover as a MMC owner too, I've never had a problem trading Manor Club for prime weeks ... like the 2 bdrm I just got for Spring Break week in Marriott Ft Lauderdale 2008 (next to the St. Regis where ER has some suites)...and another for President's week the same year.  Try those weeks with a low level DC membership.

You guys are getting so committed to this DC thing you're beginning to not see the forest for the trees IMO.  It's not a money thing ... or you shouldn't be in the game - it's a vacation lifestyle and quality of life decision.

Brian




LTTravel said:


> I think that you will like a DC much more than a Timeshare. You can drop your DC membership much easier than reselling your Timeshare. Timeshares offer little flexibility and the trading opportunities that they claim are MUCH more difficult than they claim.


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## Kagehitokiri

technically, _you_ are not comparing apples to apples.

TS are only good because there is a resale market.

paying developer prices = huge ripoff.

the complete opposite of DCs.

the entry prices of HCC, PE, DHH are competitive to TS, although yes true holiday use may vary with the _entry level_ plans. (OTOH im not sure its a solid argument that true holiday use _never_ varies with TS.)

i recommend taking another look at the PE property LTTravel and i were just discussing. while not _all_ the properties are great, there _are_ *fantastic* properties.

why am i not interested in buying TS? the *maximum* *value* of DCs is infinitely greater.
(i own 1 TS, but did not buy it myself)

also - TS, like fractional ownership, and full ownership, are _best_ for those who want to return to the same place. is "buy where you want to go" _not_ the 2nd most stated thing on TUG? (after "buy resale")


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## pwrshift

Kagehitokiri, you jumped in on my post that I should have clearly directed to GOLFNBEACH where he stated he was really looking for a golf timeshare and is now considering a much bigger investment than he originally planned.  For his needs, a good TS might be just perfect...and a lot less than $70k and less risk...and includes free golf.  Not sure if any DC's include 'free' golf in their comparatively excessive annual fees...where some actually reward you if you don't use your allocated paid-for time.

Brian




GOLFNBEACH said:


> A week ago I was in the market to buy a used timeshare in Florida for golf and beach use, and now I am actually considering (am I crazy) dropping $70K on joining both clubs as vineyarder describes.
> 
> I love the price point of HCC but I want the reservation flexibility of PE.


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## Kagehitokiri

ah, i see what youre saying about golf / OP. 

you only made one reference to free rounds though, and quoted LTTravel.

PE Premiere Preview's $50K deposit is 100% refundable. 
and $70K would suggest hes talking about HCC trial(offer extended) with $20K deposit, also 100% refundable.


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## pwrshift

See my post 27 above for the financials of buying a Marriott platinum week at Manor Club for $7500 and MF of $730 annually incl up to 6 free rounds of golf ... the OP quoted the 70k figure, not me - other than to say he could get MMC a lot less than that...which permits you to split your week into a 3 night stay (2 rounds) and another 4 night stay (4 rounds) if you choose that instead of a week's stay. Nice variables - nice resort - and for you guys it's lunch money.   

http://www.fordscolony.com/Williamsburg/Golf/LandingPage.cfm

Brian


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## vineyarder

> Not sure if any DC's include 'free' golf in their comparatively excessive annual fees...



I don't know the details (since I'm not a golfer), but PE does include free or heavily discounted golf at some locations...



> like the 2 bdrm I just got for Spring Break week in Marriott Ft Lauderdale 2008 (next to the St. Regis where ER has some suites)...and another for President's week the same year. Try those weeks with a low level DC membership.



As a Marriott timeshare owner (as well as a Four Seasons timeshare owner, a member of 2 DC's (one 'entry level' and one 'mid-level', and a member of the Ritz Carlton Club), there is simply NO comparison between the quality of a Marriott timeshare and a DC home or condo.  The Marriott FLL timeshare is next to the St. Regis, but that doesn't mean that the units are comparable!  Even the Four Seasons timeshares aren't comparable to the DC homes...


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## Steamboat Bill

I own Marriott MMC timehsare and the going price is really $10k. This is the BEST bargain for almost any timeshare out there.

I also own a Westgate Park City ski week, 850 DVC points, a few hotel-condos in Whistler, and am a member of HCC.

If I had to choose only one to keep and sell the rest, I would keep my HCC membership over all the other timeshares as the "quality of vacations" is far superior, even thought HCC was my worst investment compared to all my timeshares because I can sell my timeshares for a profit and I will lose 20% on HCC.

I joined HCC for the access to the club and properties and they are FAR superior to any timeshare out there. The only potential downside of some DC properties are that they are not usually located in a "resort" setting with a fancy pool and restaurants. I do not consider this a bad thing.


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## LTTravel

Maybe I am now a DC snob but I have done that TS routine with getting down to the pool at 6:30 AM to put a shirt on a Chaise to save it for the day, seeing a bunch of men and woman wearing bathing suits they should have replaced 40 pounds ago and people running to the free wine and cheese member updates or watching people stuff themselves at the free member introduction breakfasts. I have been spoiled by having my own pool and chairs around the pool, extra space and privacy. I will still go to TS's because they can still be a good deal and lots of fun, but a DC home is a totally different animal.


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## pwrshift

*vineyarder*, I never wanted to suggest the $4 million ER suites in the St. Regis were comparable to the Marriott TS right next door ... but my view is the same, the beach is the same, my pool is almost as big (both are small), the parking is free and my annual costs for 4 weeks in a row from President's week to the end of Spring Break week come to about $*2300*.  Regardless of what you pay for a DC, I doubt you can get all those weeks at any DC every year like I can with the TS.  But each week I'll take a 5 minute stroll to all those luxury condo-hotels next door to enjoy fine dining at the St. Regis, the Trump, the Hilton, the Atlantic, the W, etc.

I agree it's nice to have your very own splash and full pool *LTTravel* ... but how many HCC homes/condos have them? However, I didn't know you had to lose 40 lbs to be a DC member.    I'd fail that qualification big time...but I'd sure take your towel off the chaise if you weren't there!  Of course, in Fort Lauderdale at Spring Break there is nobody overweight at the pool or beach but me!

DC's certainly are attractive and luxurious based on the level of club you join and can afford.  The HCC locations in urban centres leave a lot to be desired (NYC - 600 ft) compared to TS sizes, but I'm an empty nester now and 75% of the time a 2nd bedroom is a complete waste ... a 4 bdrm home would be ridiculous for me.  Maybe I just don't have enough freeloading friends.

People go through various stages of life and vacation needs as they age and as their families grow out on their own.  I wouldn't consider me a snob, but do enjoy the finer things in life I can now afford that I couldn't 40 years ago.  I'm not interested in a home away from home as much as a great place to park my bags and bod for a few weeks in a row.  

BTW ... did you all see ER's profile on High Net Worth on CNBC last week?

Brian


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## Steamboat Bill

pwrshift said:


> People go through various stages of life and vacation needs as they age and as their families grow out on their own.



Exactly!

My family is in the Destination Club stage right now as we usually travel with 4-8 people. In 10 years or so, my wife and I will probably be in the 1 bedroom timeshare mode and vacation by ourselves.

So far, there is no Destination Club designed for individuals or a simple married couple as most clubs cater to families that need 3-5 rooms.

Although you may have a great deal for you at the Marriott Fort Lauderdale, a studio, 1 bedroom or even a 2 bedroom unit may be too small for many families. A 3-4 bedroom timeshare is a rare and hard to find property.


----------



## LTTravel

pwrshift said:


> You can buy a Marriott Manor Club platinum week for $7500 resale which has an annual maintenance of $730 AND includes six free rounds of golf on the 54 hole Ford's Colony Golf Course.  It buys you into the Marriott 'family' that you know will be around tomorrow and is one of the top quality resorts in the system...on which you'd get every penny back if you resold in 7 days on Ebay, probably even from Marriott!  In addition, it's about as close to a beach (30 min) as most of the cheap DC's most of you are considering.  As Bill will discover as a MMC owner too, I've never had a problem trading Manor Club for prime weeks ... like the 2 bdrm I just got for Spring Break week in Marriott Ft Lauderdale 2008 (next to the St. Regis where ER has some suites)...and another for President's week the same year.  Try those weeks with a low level DC membership.
> 
> 
> Brian



I looked up Marriott Manor Club at it looks very nice. But you can rent a 2 bedroom for $299 directly through Marriott in peak season and less than $200 per night in off season. Rentals through Redweek for for $100-$200 per night. For most timeshares that you can trade anywhere (like Harborside at the Atlantis, 4-Seasons), the rental prices are so high that it does not pay for them to trade. It is great that you have no trouble trading for other destinations, but because of the rentals available, frankly, I'm surprised.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

LTTravel said:


> I looked up Marriott Manor Club at it looks very nice. But you can rent a 2 bedroom for $299 directly through Marriott in peak season and less than $200 per night in off season. .



Can you rent them in peak season?  Are they generally available?

As I evaluate the idea of joining a DC, I naturally look at how I want to travel.  I do make some long term plans (long term for me is generally 6-9 months, however, most times I am looking at 1-3 months.  I need to be convinced that there will be desirable properties available within that window.

It would be great to join a club tomorrow and book at ski trip for the kids winter break in February (with on-site lifts) and a beach week (with ocean views) for our kids spring break in April.  Then come summer it would be nice to have access at short notice to some closer drivable (from Boston) resorts for some long weekends to refresh the mind and soul.

I'm worried that the DC option will take as much planning as the TS option does.  

I'm not sure that there is a DC that perfectly fits my traveling plans at the price level that I would like to pay.


----------



## LTTravel

GOLFNBEACH said:


> Can you rent them in peak season?  Are they generally available?
> 
> As I evaluate the idea of joining a DC, I naturally look at how I want to travel.  I do make some long term plans (long term for me is generally 6-9 months, however, most times I am looking at 1-3 months.  I need to be convinced that there will be desirable properties available within that window.
> 
> It would be great to join a club tomorrow and book at ski trip for the kids winter break in February (with on-site lifts) and a beach week (with ocean views) for our kids spring break in April.  Then come summer it would be nice to have access at short notice to some closer drivable (from Boston) resorts for some long weekends to refresh the mind and soul.
> 
> I'm worried that the DC option will take as much planning as the TS option does.
> 
> I'm not sure that there is a DC that perfectly fits my traveling plans at the price level that I would like to pay.



From redweek, the following are available:
http://www.redweek.com/resort/P2132

Just check the Marriott web site for all other dates:
http://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/phfvi-marriotts-manor-club-at-fords-colony/

DC's are great but with restrictions. For example with HCC full membership, you will get three weeks to book up to one year in advance and three within 90 days. You get only one Holiday Week. Christmas, President's Week, and usually the last two weeks of March and first two weeks of April are considered spring break. There are other holidays as well, depending on the DC. If you want the best properties, you really need to book a year in advance for a holiday and you only get one, unless something is still available within the 90 day period. If you were to join HCC today, Their Snowmass, Arrowhead and Stowe properties are still available for Presiden'ts week. If your kids have off for Passover instead of Easter, you're in luck, there is still alot of availability and you can get it because it is not considered a holiday this year (usually one out of three years Passover is a month after Easter) but otherwise, you will have to see what is available 90 days out. The only driveable destinations from Boston are currently New York and Stowe. But depending on the type of accommodations you usually try to get on a Holiday, remember that some of the HCC prime properties would cost you the entire years membership dues to rent out for one holiday week if you did it on your own and the other five weeks would be a bonus. 
But I would think that you would have to book a Holiday at least 11 months in advance out of Boston, because airline ticket prices soar after the first day or so of availability, especially to the popular destinations. 

If you want to travel on short notice, there is currently alot of availablity in the next 90 days, however, the Fall is a lightly travelled season. It will be tough to get a desireable Holiday within 90 days but still, some will be available. Also, 90 day availability in the summer is also tighter than now. You will need to be somewhat flexible.


----------



## TarheelTraveler

Golf is included with many DCs in particular destinations.  For example, I believe that most of the more expensive DCs (or at least in my experience with Crescendo) only buy non-metropolitan residences if they have resort amenities from a high end resort hotel or country club available in the community.  If it's a country club membership, the greens fees are sometimes included in the membership, so they pass it on to the members of the DC.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would expect that most of the more expensive DCs almost always have resort amenities.  If not, that should be a factor in the decision making process.


----------



## LTTravel

TarheelTraveler said:


> Golf is included with many DCs in particular destinations.  For example, I believe that most of the more expensive DCs (or at least in my experience with Crescendo) only buy non-metropolitan residences if they have resort amenities from a high end resort hotel or country club available in the community.  If it's a country club membership, the greens fees are sometimes included in the membership, so they pass it on to the members of the DC.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would expect that most of the more expensive DCs almost always have resort amenities.  If not, that should be a factor in the decision making process.



Most DC's have preferred rates for and access to many golf facilities. They are not free.


----------



## NeilGoBlue

LTTravel said:


> Most DC's have preferred rates for and access to many golf facilities. They are not free.



That has been my experience.  You get access to the golf club at a members rate, but it's not free.

In my last trip to Bellehavens, they got me a pass to the resort and I paid $125 per round of golf, while the guests of the actual resort were paying $175.  I was technically a guest of a member.  The members were only paying $25 per round.  (of course they have a huge upfront fee plus a yearly fee)


----------



## TarheelTraveler

You guys are right.  Checked and greens fees only included for one destination, and access and very good reductions (but not free) for others.  That seems like the norm.


----------



## pwrshift

Booking holidays presents a pretty negative restriction for booking DC's, doesn't it?  What if you were eligible for 3 weeks with HCC or any DC, could you not book all three of the weeks in a row at the same resort location as you can with ownership at the Manor Club TS (or any owned Marriott TS) - and do it 13 months ahead of the 'first' week of your stay?  You could even book Christmas week followed by New Year's week and it sounds like you can't do that with a DC either.  I complain about the rat race in booking floating popular TS weeks 13-12 months ahead but having to wait for 90 days before would drive me nuts, making reservations, etc.  

Booking within 90 days ahead is like using a Bonus Week from Interval that gives you a 2-bdrm week for $299 over and above your ownership weeks.  

As Manor Club is a 'sold out' resort the only weeks www.marriott.com  would have to rent would be from owners who turned their weeks in for 120,000 Marriott Reward points instead of staying there ... or perhaps ones Marriott bought back from owners with the ROFR and hadn't yet resold.  The RedWeek weeks would be from those owners trying to rent them on the open market, as you find on Ebay too ... in most cases to cover their $730 maint/tax bill for their week.  Two years ago, I couldn't go one July 4 week that I had reserved and rented it on Ebay for $1200 in 7 days -- another advantage of TS over DC it would seem.  My renters got the 6 free rounds of golf.

Brian



LTTravel said:


> ...DC's are great but with restrictions. For example with HCC full membership, you will get three weeks to book up to one year in advance and three within 90 days. You get only one Holiday Week. Christmas, President's Week, and usually the last two weeks of March and first two weeks of April are considered spring break. There are other holidays as well, depending on the DC. If you want the best properties, you really need to book a year in advance for a holiday and you only get one, unless something is still available within the 90 day period. If you were to join HCC today, Their Snowmass, Arrowhead and Stowe properties are still available for Presiden'ts week. If your kids have off for Passover instead of Easter, you're in luck, there is still alot of availability and you can get it because it is not considered a holiday this year (usually one out of three years Passover is a month after Easter) but otherwise, you will have to see what is available 90 days out. The only driveable destinations from Boston are currently New York and Stowe. But depending on the type of accommodations you usually try to get on a Holiday, remember that some of the HCC prime properties would cost you the entire years membership dues to rent out for one holiday week if you did it on your own and the other five weeks would be a bonus.
> But I would think that you would have to book a Holiday at least 11 months in advance out of Boston, because airline ticket prices soar after the first day or so of availability, especially to the popular destinations.
> 
> If you want to travel on short notice, there is currently alot of availablity in the next 90 days, however, the Fall is a lightly travelled season. It will be tough to get a desireable Holiday within 90 days but still, some will be available. Also, 90 day availability in the summer is also tighter than now. You will need to be somewhat flexible.


----------



## NeilGoBlue

pwrshift said:


> Booking holidays presents a pretty negative restriction for booking DC's, doesn't it?  What if you were eligible for 3 weeks with HCC or any DC, could you not book all three of the weeks in a row at the same resort location as you can with ownership at the Manor Club TS (or any owned Marriott TS) - and do it 13 months ahead of the 'first' week of your stay?  You could even book Christmas week followed by New Year's week and it sounds like you can't do that with a DC either.  I complain about the rat race in booking floating popular TS weeks 13-12 months ahead but having to wait for 90 days before would drive me nuts, making reservations, etc.
> 
> Brian



Brian,

I have no clue what  Marriott Manor is or how it works.. but I'm guessing it doesn't have 4-5 bedrooms and 4-5 baths.  Along with a private pool, a concierge meeting your at the door when you arive.. private chefs, etc.

To me, and I can only speak for myself, belonging to a DC is exactly what I need.  I usually travel with 6-8 people (4 in my family and parents or inlaws).  I want extreme service etc.  I want to have a 5 minute conversation with teh concierge 30 days out with what I want.. and I want it to happen.  I don't want to do research, or follow up etc.  I'm too busy working to pay for my destiantion club... lol  Having a few restrictions around holiday time is fine with me.. I don't even use it much then.  To me it's a no brainer.  I never take more than 1 week at a time.

But, if you want to stay 6 weeks at the same resort at the same time, or if you only travel in a party of 2.. Then I can understand timesharing being right for that person.


----------



## LTTravel

pwrshift said:


> Booking holidays presents a pretty negative restriction for booking DC's, doesn't it?  What if you were eligible for 3 weeks with HCC or any DC, could you not book all three of the weeks in a row at the same resort location as you can with ownership at the Manor Club TS (or any owned Marriott TS) - and do it 13 months ahead of the 'first' week of your stay?  You could even book Christmas week followed by New Year's week and it sounds like you can't do that with a DC either.  I complain about the rat race in booking floating popular TS weeks 13-12 months ahead but having to wait for 90 days before would drive me nuts, making reservations, etc.



Brian, 

I am happy that you are having such great success at trading your timeshare, but based on what I read on TUG from other discussions, and talking to friends who have alot of trouble trading, trading is no where near as easy as you seem to claim. But anyway, continue with your good luck.


----------



## pwrshift

Thanks Neil...vacation use is an individual thing, usually based on your stage in the life/work cycle.  I like to be pampered too ... but what would I do with 3 empty bedrooms!

I guess your assessment of a _normal_ DC woldn't include the 668 sq ft NYC HCC apartment.  8 people in that one might be a bit cramped.     I've had hotel rooms on Marriott points in NYC that big.  Manor Club is about twice that size at 1350 sq ft.

http://www.highcountryclub.com/destinations/New_York.asp?fp=1

There's not much on the east coast that HCC offers within driving distance from Toronto except Stowe which doesn't even have ski in/ski out facilities albeit a nice looking residential home somewhere.  Then again, I don't ski.  

Brian




NeilGoBlue said:


> Brian,
> 
> ...I have no clue what Marriott Manor is or how it works.. but I'm guessing it doesn't have 4-5 bedrooms and 4-5 baths. Along with a private pool, a concierge meeting your at the door when you arive.. private chefs, etc.
> 
> ...I'm too busy working to pay for my destiantion club... lol Having a few restrictions around holiday time is fine with me.. I don't even use it much then. To me it's a no brainer. I never take more than 1 week at a time.
> 
> ... if you want to stay 6 weeks at the same resort at the same time, or if you only travel in a party of 2.. Then I can understand timesharing being right for that person.


----------



## NeilGoBlue

pwrshift said:


> Thanks Neil...vacation use is an individual thing, usually based on your stage in the life/work cycle.  I like to be pampered too ... but what would I do with 3 empty bedrooms!
> 
> I guess your assessment of a _normal_ DC woldn't include the 668 sq ft NYC HCC apartment.  8 people in that one might be a bit cramped.     I've had hotel rooms on Marriott points in NYC that big.  Manor Club is about twice that size at 1350 sq ft.
> 
> 
> Brian




I agree!  That is one reason I didn't join HCC... I realized that I needed about 2.5 - 3.5 mill homes to get what I want.  At the time Bellehavens was only 2mill.  A few months ago they made an announcement (the announcement  didn't get a lot of attentioin ) that they were moving to 2-3 mm homes.  That was my clincher and I joined.   Bellehavens is a 2 bedroom plus a den in NYC.  Still not enough for 8, but better.  If you are going to get a 600 sq ft studio.. you might as well rent a hotel room.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

*Membership caps?*

Based on my conversations with HCC they do not want to put a cap on memberships.  The reasoning is simple - the more people that join the more properties and destinations they can offer.

Based on what I read about PE they are planning on capping membership for all their clubs.  I believe the number was something like 400 members.

Any thoughs on this?  Pros / Cons.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

NYC Properties

I was hoping to keep this discussion on the benefits of HCC vs. PE. 

PE's NYC properties include everything from a 600 sq. ft. studio to a 1,576 sq. ft. 2 bedroom penthouse.


----------



## vineyarder

> Based on what I read about PE they are planning on capping membership for all their clubs. I believe the number was something like 400 members.



That was the original plan, but PE has come to the same conclusion as HCC; more members = more destinations, so they are abolishing the cap.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

I just spoke to PE and there doesn't appear to be any significat limitations (for me) in the premier preview except that they do NOT lock in the price to upgrade in the future.  You pay the current rate at the time you want to upgrade less the $50K preview price.

There is no reciprocity.

No Chicago or Miami city properties.

No Christmas or New Years.


----------



## LTTravel

GOLFNBEACH said:


> I just spoke to PE and there doesn't appear to be any significat limitations (for me) in the premier preview except that they do NOT lock in the price to upgrade in the future.  You pay the current rate at the time you want to upgrade less the $50K preview price.
> 
> There is no reciprocity.
> 
> No Chicago or Miami city properties.
> 
> No Christmas or New Years.




I got some membership info that says that they lock in the price for upgrades for one year and there are limitations on city use.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

LTTravel said:


> I got some membership info that says that they lock in the price for upgrades for one year and there are limitations on city use.



Thanks for the feedback.  I will look into that as I continue my due diligence.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

when did you get the info LTTravel? if it was by mail, it might have changed - possibly even before they sent it to you - the package ER sent me was VERY outdated. (florida properties they no longer had, and an "upcoming" fiji property that had been cancelled/put on indefinite hold [by developer] a while before)

i would _hope_ that would be more likely than a PE rep giving out bad information.


----------



## LTTravel

Kagehitokiri said:


> when did you get the info LTTravel? if it was by mail, it might have changed - possibly even before they sent it to you - the package ER sent me was VERY outdated. (florida properties they no longer had, and an "upcoming" fiji property that had been cancelled/put on indefinite hold [by developer] a while before)
> 
> i would _hope_ that would be more likely than a PE rep giving out bad information.



The Premiere Preview Addendum dated 5/07: Up to 12 months to upgrade at current fee. NYC limited to 3 days per year. Peak date, reciprocity and space available are excluded.


----------



## vivalour

GOLFNBEACH said:


> Thanks for the feedback.  I will look into that as I continue my due diligence.


On the subject of due diligence, thank you all for your very helpful discussion here.  We're considering joining trials in both HCC and PE. The 100% return on membership fees for previews/trials really appeals to my penny-pinching nature. However, it's hard for us to get a real idea of many properties and their location from web photos.  We like sites on or near water and can't tell from many descriptions (e.g. Florida) which ones actually have water (pool/ beach) adjacent or within a short walk. Would a virtual tour with a sales rep be more helpful??


----------



## Kagehitokiri

welcome to the forum vivalour 

canada eh?  (my maternal grandmother immigrated from Canada to  US)

if you want to join PE trial, you might want to do it before the merger is complete.. even then, they seem to be vague as to whether NEW members will be able to maintain their plans (basically) after the merger is completed. (as CURRENT members will)

as of right now PE's trial is also renewable, while i dont think HCC's is.


----------



## vivalour

Kagehitokiri said:


> welcome to the forum vivalour
> 
> canada eh?  (my maternal grandmother immigrated from Canada to  US)
> 
> if you want to join PE trial, you might want to do it before the merger is complete.. even then, they seem to be vague as to whether NEW members will be able to maintain their plans (basically) after the merger is completed. (as CURRENT members will)
> 
> as of right now PE's trial is also renewable, while i dont think HCC's is.



Thank you --and most of my relatives also migrated to the US -- too bad for me, eh?  According to Jerel Keith of PE, full PE membership costs will be increasing about 30% when the merger goes through, but current terms will be grandfathered if we sign on soon for the preview, including today's membership prices for a year out. Of course, HCC is really appealing because of their low cost of membership/fees (Steamboat Bill almost had me sold)   but lack of flexibility (7-day rule) is a drawback for us....


----------



## Kagehitokiri

> According to Jerel Keith of PE...current terms will be grandfathered if we sign on soon...including today's membership prices for a year


GREAT news, and a REAL incentive for people considering PE to join NOW.

thanks for that info!

any word on what the new 5 plans for $1MM tier will be like? (nights/pricing)


----------



## Steamboat Bill

I actually like both HCC and PE. I ultimately joined HCC first and I really like it and am still considering UR/PE, ER, and BH.

I actually reccomend that you join both now as the trial programs are a great deal. Then after one year, decide which club you like best.


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## vivalour

Sorry, but I didn't get any info on the new merged UR/PE structure. I'll add that question to my list. Still waiting for my info package from PE to clear customs.


----------



## vivalour

Steamboat Bill said:


> I actually like both HCC and PE. I ultimately joined HCC first and I really like it and am still considering UR/PE, ER, and BH.
> 
> I actually reccomend that you join both now as the trial programs are a great deal. Then after one year, decide which club you like best.



Agree. May do. Our vacation time is somewhat limited, though, with a pre-teen son in school and dh constantly on call for business crises.


----------



## saluki

Kagehitokiri said:


> GREAT news, and a REAL incentive for people considering PE to join NOW.



Hey Kage-

Speaking of joining...isn't it about time you sprung for a TUG membership?


----------



## Kagehitokiri

im not interested in TS at all... i could do official reviews, but i thought my posts on powhatan plantation, HGVC vegas strip, wyndam vegas desert, etc might be helpful enough by themselves.

im really only here for this forum - its another way to keep up on the latest happenings, like LTTravel recently beating helium and sherpa by a mile for example  and posting what i know as well - like the email from quintess on their new development, which wasnt posted anywhere else that i saw either.

ive also discussed DCs with friends etc. so learning about HCC and PE for example, lets me help others more. as ive already decided theyre not the best fit for me personally.


----------



## saluki

Kagehitokiri said:


> im not interested in TS at all... i could do official reviews, but i thought my posts on powhatan plantation, HGVC vegas strip, wyndam vegas desert, etc might be helpful enough by themselves.
> 
> im really only here for this forum - its another way to keep up on the latest happenings, like LTTravel recently beating helium and sherpa by a mile for example



We are talking about a $15 membership for a member-supported site that you are learning a great deal from (like the rest of us). I'm not trying to make a big deal out of it, but...geez.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

cant you get a lifetime membership for reviews...?

ive contributed to the TS side, and this side. i dont feel the need to pay an annual fee for a membership that is designed to inform/assist TS owners. (among other reasons) i hope im not coming across badly.. that certainly is not my intention. there are also plenty of other people who have thousands of posts (and contributions) and are not TUG members..


----------



## Steamboat Bill

The fee is optional...but non-members don't get access to the ultra secret forums where the good stuff gets discussed (just kidding). This is simply an online version of "shareware"

----------------------------------------

The TUG BBS is open and free to TUG Members and guests alike. Some features of the bbs may be reserved for TUG members, however. For example, access to specific bbs forums may be reserved for Members . Outside the bbs, there are other sections of the TUG website which are reserved for TUG Members only, such as our written reviews of thousands of timeshare resorts around the world.

The TUG Web site is supported by Members and is run by TUG Volunteers. TUG's minimal membership fee supports TUG operation and pays for the site presence, storage, and other activities. If you are interested in joining TUG to help support this effort, you can do this with a credit card, Paypal etc. Please go to Join TUG to pay for your membership ($15 for the first 12 months, renewal dues is only $10). After enrolling you will be emailed membership information telling you how you may then access TUG members-only features. When you join you may wish to use the name of a TUG Volunteer or other TUG member known to you for reference, as TUG has a small finders fee for referring new members.


----------



## vineyarder

vivalour said:


> Agree. May do. Our vacation time is somewhat limited, though, with a pre-teen son in school and dh constantly on call for business crises.



I agree with Bill; I am a member of PE Platinum, and just joined HCC as a trial... with PE Preview + HCC trial, you are only committing to 3 weeks a year, with 100% refund on both... but if you wait on PE, the 'preview' and/or it sterms may go away (or at least increase by 25 - 30%) after the merger...


----------



## vivalour

vineyarder said:


> I agree with Bill; I am a member of PE Platinum, and just joined HCC as a trial... with PE Preview + HCC trial, you are only committing to 3 weeks a year, with 100% refund on both... but if you wait on PE, the 'preview' and/or it sterms may go away (or at least increase by 25 - 30%) after the merger...



Yes, I would like to decide soon. The only trouble with PE is that we don't really know what the merged PE/UR entity will be like.  Frankly, the more I think about, the less I want to over-complicate our lives with two clubs at the moment, so am looking carefully at comparisons you and others have made in the threads....As noted many times, this is all about personal preferences.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

hypothetically >

join both, or just PE trial. you would have 1 year to get out of HCC with 100%, VS unlimited time to get out of PE trial with 100%.

HCC trial does not seem to be going away. PE trial definitely COULD be.


----------



## vivalour

Kagehitokiri said:


> hypothetically >
> 
> join both, or just PE trial. you would have 1 year to get out of HCC with 100%, VS unlimited time to get out of PE trial with 100%.
> 
> HCC trial does not seem to be going away. PE trial definitely COULD be.



Good points. Thank you. That means I have to scare up some slush money real quick.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

id also clarify whether you can upgrade from trial the same as from full memberships after the merger.

("today's membership prices for a year")


----------



## pwrshift

Excellent point.  It should be just valet tip money for anyone looking at DC's!  Or is Kage 'just looking' still?

Brian



saluki said:


> Hey Kage-
> 
> Speaking of joining...isn't it about time you sprung for a TUG membership?


----------



## travelguy

*PE/UR Annual Fees?*

There is a lot of discussion about purchasing a PE membership at the current rate prior to the 30% increase in membership fee that is coming with the PE/UR merger.  I would add two points to consider:

1. What will the adjusted Annual Fee be post-merger?  Will this also be increased by 30%?  And with the vague restrictions (or lack thereof) in the ability of PE/UR to increase the annual fee, where will the annual fees eventually be with both the existing and new PE memberships?  When I evaluate DC memberships, I place more emphasis on comparison of annual fees because they contribute much more to the "cost per night" than the lost opportunity cost of membership fees.  I would want some guarantees on short-term and long-term annual fees, from both PE & UR, before considering any pre-merger membership.

2. Has anyone done due diligence on the post-merger entity?  What assets (cash!) will remain in the company when the dust settles?  Is there any leveraging and/or outside financing involved to make this acquisition/merger?  Is one party buying out another and where is the money coming from if so?  Will one party take their money and go away as a condition of the merger/acquisition and, if so, what type of financial condition does that leave the remaining PE/UR entity in?  I find it interesting that this merger/acquisition has been met with open arms as opposed to the skepticism that it would be met with in the business world.

IMHO, anyone considering membership pre-merger MUST find the answer to these questions and many others.  In addition, I would want everything guaranteed in WRITING since the person you talk to today may be gone after the merger!


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

One thing I didn't like about PE was that they required a $3K deposit (refundable) before they would even send out copies of the membership agreement to review the terms.

Wanna do some due diligence...pony up some cash first...we don't want tire kickers wasting out time mentality.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

travelguy said:


> 2. Has anyone done due diligence on the post-merger entity?  What assets (cash!) will remain in the company when the dust settles?



$20MM in cash reserves according to the email I received.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

I am attending a UR reception at the Liberty Hotel in Boston this coming Thursday.  

Please let me know if you have any specific questions you would like me to ask (I already have some good questions from Travelguy and others).


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

The more I look at the PE Preview the better it looks pre-merger.  I can join Preview for $50K, $4600 annual and $82 night, 14 nights.  The lowest price at UR is Bronze that would cost $125K and $10K annual for 14 nights.


----------



## Kagehitokiri

i guess the real question is how exactly are the plans for grandfathered members changing - like whats going on with the nightly fees etc? - and if you wanted to upgrade, how would that work?

(BTW GOLFNBEACH, there is an edit button that lets you edit your posts, up to 48 hours after it is posted)


----------



## travelguy

GOLFNBEACH said:


> $20MM in cash reserves according to the email I received.



I received the same e-mail; too bad it's copyrighted or I'd post it here.  The e-mail says $20 Mil in cash reserves but this means nothing without some type of balance sheet.  What if they are merging because they have $20Mil in cash but $30Mil in callable liabilities!!!  And $200Mil in real estate assets is nice but what if they paid $250M for the RE and have leveraged it even further!!   _(< by the way, I'm starting to love the "eek" face)_

I don't know any of this to be true.  I'm just asking if anyone has seen anything concrete about the post-merger entity and it's financial condition?


----------



## LTTravel

GOLFNBEACH said:


> The more I look at the PE Preview the better it looks pre-merger.  I can join Preview for $50K, $4600 annual and $82 night, 14 nights.  The lowest price at UR is Bronze that would cost $125K and $10K annual for 14 nights.



You are comparing two different levels. UR is equivalent to PE Platinum. PE Platinum preview is $100K, $6900 + $138/day x 14 = $8832. UR refunds 80% of current price, though PE Preview refunds 100%, if you were to upgrade, only 80% of the price you paid. There are other issues also:

*UR Benefits Bronze Membership*: $125K, $10 K per year, 14 Days useage (Up to 21 days with MAP points)

Refund 80% of current price
Upgrade for difference in price of higher level (upt to Silver, Gold or Platinum or UR Elite)
Independant use by family members >21 years of age
MAP points (I don't know if they still have this, can give you 1 extra week of useage so you actually get 21 days of useage)
Mid week Maid service
Sunday to Sunday Booking
One Holiday every other year
90 Day Space available booking
One advance booking per year

*PE Platinum Preview* $100K, $8832 per year, 14 days

Refund 100% of price paid but only 80% of total price paid if you upgrade
No independant use by family members (The full family membership allows this privelage)
NO MAP points for extra days
Daily Maid Service
Flexible Booking
NO Christmas or New Years Booking

I am sure there are many other issues that may come up. READ THE FINE PRINT. The comparisons are not as simple as they appear. Comparing any of the different DC's is difficult and your specific needs will dictate which is a better plan for you. For example, Even ER, I believe charges an extra $20,000 or something like that for family membership plus an extra $5000 per year. So if you have adult children (Even if you don't have them now, I hope you will see them grow) these points, though they may not make a difference now, will, shortly.


----------



## travelguy

Kagehitokiri said:


> i guess the real question is how exactly are the plans for grandfathered members changing - like whats going on with the nightly fees etc? - and if you wanted to upgrade, how would that work?



Once again playing devil's advocate, we don't know that the post-merger PE/UR entity is responsible for the pre-merger contracts regardless of what they say now.  In a worst case scenario, the contracts of current PE and/or UR members could remain with a pre-merger shell company that has no disposable assets even though it may be bound to the contracts (a.k.a. no recourse for the members).

I'm just saying not to get too euphoric about a membership opportunity until you consider all the potential downside.


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## LTTravel

travelguy said:


> Once again playing devil's advocate, we don't know that the post-merger PE/UR entity is responsible for the pre-merger contracts regardless of what they say now.  In a worst case scenario, the contracts of current PE and/or UR members could remain with a pre-merger shell company that has no disposable assets even though it may be bound to the contracts (a.k.a. no recourse for the members).
> 
> I'm just saying not to get too euphoric about a membership opportunity until you consider all the potential downside.



I have spoken to UR and PE. The information that I received is that they will honor their previous contracts, however, will try to make the contracts more uniform and offer incentives for members to get in with a uniform "program". So though they will not be identical, to get them on the same track. For example, PE clearly has the data on how much each member has used the club during their membership. Let's assume that number is 40. Let's also assume that the yearly fees and 40 days use has cost them $20,000 ( I am just making up these numbers). They could offer the member a plan for 42 days per year with a $18,000 yearly dues. The member could decide whether or not it is worth a savings of $2000 per year and allowed 2 more days than they had previously been using. Not all members will take the offer but it depends on how good they make it. Yes, PE has unlimited use but practically that is not the case because they have a limit of 28 days reservations on the books at one time. Certainly, it is not clear what it will look like when the dust settles, but it will be interesting.


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## GOLFNBEACH

LTTravel said:


> You are comparing two different levels. UR is equivalent to PE Platinum. .



Good point, however, what UR destinations/homes would be available to me if I join PE at the Premier or Premier Trial?  Since UR starts at $1.5MM, do you think I wouldn't have use of any homes?  Good question for my reception this Thursday.


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## GOLFNBEACH

Kagehitokiri said:


> (BTW GOLFNBEACH, there is an edit button that lets you edit your posts, up to 48 hours after it is posted)



Guess I got carried away...


----------



## LTTravel

GOLFNBEACH said:


> Good point, however, what UR destinations/homes would be available to me if I join PE at the Premier Trial?  Since UR starts at $1.5MM, do you think I wouldn't have use of any homes?  Good question for my reception this Thursday.



None. I do not think that there is any reciprocity in the trial membership.


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## LTTravel

GOLFNBEACH said:


> I am attending a UR reception at the Liberty Hotel in Boston this coming Thursday.
> 
> Please let me know if you have any specific questions you would like me to ask (I already have some good questions from Travelguy and others).



Ask them if they still have the MAP (Membership Appreciation Points) system. I don't see it on their web site anymore.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

LTTravel said:


> None. I do not think that there is any reciprocity in the trial membership.



There is no reciprocity in the trial memership, however, do you think that ALL of the UR destinations will be defined as reciprocity to Premier Members in the merged club.  If I joined as a Premier Member would I have use of any of the UR houses, or only on a reciprocity basis?  If that is the case, then there is little benefit of the merger to PE Premier members.


----------



## LTTravel

GOLFNBEACH said:


> There is no reciprocity in the trial memership, however, do you think that ALL of the UR destinations will be defined as reciprocity to Premier Members in the merged club.  If I joined as a Premier Member would I have use of any of the UR houses, or only on a reciprocity basis?  If that is the case, then there is little benefit of the merger to PE Premier members.



The full membership does allow 7 days of reciprocity from Premier into Platinum. The Premier members will be with their own $1 million level. However, from what I understand, there is no reciprocity into the Pinnacle homes. In other words, Pinnacle members can go to Platinum and/or Premier homes for up to 7 days per year, Platinum members can go into Premier homes up to 7 days per year and Premier members can go into Platinum homes up to 7 days per year. Therefore, if you join PE Premier (full membership) you will be able to go to any of the UR (not UR Elite) homes up to 7 days per year. They have alot of nice homes in UR. They are as nice as the homes in UR Elite only smaller. Including 2 bedroom condos at the Esperanza, A full one bedroom at the Trump, A beautiful home in Orlando and at the Rosewood in Sunny Isles, a beautiful 2 bedroom in Maui, Wailea, 3 bedroom in Oahu, 2 bedroom homes at Abaco, 3 bedrooms at Nevis (which is supposed to be excellent, just difficult to get to and very quiet). A very nice selection. So to be able to stay in one of those up to 7 days per year is a big bonus. But i think that they have to be booked only on a space available basis. I don't know what kind of rules they will have post merger. From what I understand, the reciprocity is something that they will bring to the new club. 
From what I see, even within each level, there is a significant difference in home value. It is possible that they will juggle some of the homes within each club level to represent fair value. They do want to make the club levels to AVERAGE $1 million, $2 million and $3 million, so that may take some juggling. Also, the number of members at each level will determine how many homes are in each level, and I believe that they have the right to juggle the homes. (That is something that you can ask them at the meeting)


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

LTTravel said:


> Therefore, if you join PE Premier (full membership) you will be able to go to any of the UR (not UR Elite) homes up to 7 days per year.



Thanks for the great summary.  

I'm a bit disappointed that if I join PE Premier that I could only use the UR homes (non-Elite) on a 7 day reciprocity basis.  I wrongly assumed that the entire portfolio of UR non-Elite homes would be available to PE Premier members.


----------



## LTTravel

GOLFNBEACH said:


> Thanks for the great summary.
> 
> I'm a bit disappointed that if I join PE Premier that I could only use the UR homes (non-Elite) on a 7 day reciprocity basis.  I wrongly assumed that the entire portfolio of UR non-Elite homes would be available to PE Premier members.



The entire portfolio of UR (non-elite) homes are available to PE Premier members, but only 7 days per year. You need to joint PE Platinum to have access to the UR homes with your entire membership days.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

When the dust settles I'd like to see another merger.  

Club 1: The PE/Platinum/Pinnacle and the UR/Ultimate/Elite.  They would have properties at the $1.5MM and $3M levels.  2 clubs is easier to manage and would be good competition for ER.

Club 2: THe PE/Premier being bought by HCC.  This club would dominate the under $1MM level.  Same great locations with slightly smaller properties.  Probably a better fit for me at this time.


----------



## LTTravel

GOLFNBEACH said:


> When the dust settles I'd like to see another merger.
> 
> 
> Club 2: THe PE/Premier being bought by HCC.  This club would dominate the under $1MM level.  Same great locations with slightly smaller properties.  Probably a better fit for me at this time.



Much more likely that UR/PE will by HCC than visa versa. ER is sticking with one price point. UR/PE believes in external and internal growth. They would like people to join at the lower level (which is easier) and then have them upgrade to higher levels. I really think that UR/PE will look at HCC if the merger goes smoothly and well financially.


----------



## LTTravel

*UR homes*

Just noted at the UR site they posted more photos of their homes. I had not checked them in weeks, so I don't know when they did. They really need to post good photos of all their homes.


----------



## vivalour

GOLFNBEACH said:


> One thing I didn't like about PE was that they required a $3K deposit (refundable) before they would even send out copies of the membership agreement to review the terms.
> 
> Wanna do some due diligence...pony up some cash first...we don't want tire kickers wasting out time mentality.



I wouln't mind that, perhaps other clubs do this as well to test the seriousness of inquiries before sending out their confidential info. I'm wondering though how much re their business plans, company financials, etc. they will produce at this stage. Or do you have to pull it out bit-by-bit with your written questions and their written responses??? I'm just thinking maybe we will need our lawyer to go over the fine print as well.


----------



## vineyarder

> The full membership does allow 7 days of reciprocity from Premier into Platinum. The Premier members will be with their own $1 million level. However, from what I understand, there is no reciprocity into the Pinnacle homes. In other words, Pinnacle members can go to Platinum and/or Premier homes for up to 7 days per year, Platinum members can go into Premier homes up to 7 days per year and Premier members can go into Platinum homes up to 7 days per year.



As I understand (and as currently posted on the PE website), there is still reciprocity for new members between all 3 PE clubs, so Premiere can use Platinum or Pinnacle for 7 nights per year.  This should be grandfathered in for people who join PE before the merger.  On the other hand, if reciprocity is maintained for new members who join after the merger, it may well be '1 up or 1 down', meaning $1M can use $2M homes, $2M members can use all three levels, and $3M can use $2M or $3M... Just an educated guess...



> I'm a bit disappointed that if I join PE Premier that I could only use the UR homes (non-Elite) on a 7 day reciprocity basis. I wrongly assumed that the entire portfolio of UR non-Elite homes would be available to PE Premier members.



The $1M club will be primarily the current PE Premiere homes, with perhaps a couple of current PE Platinum homes reshifted downwards (i.e. Trump Sunny Isles) and perhaps a handful of the lower-valued UR homes.  The $2M club will be the vast majority of both the PE Platinum homes and the vast majority of the UR homes, with perhaps a couple of UR Elite homes with lower valuations.  The $3M club will be all the PE Pinnacle homes, plus the vast majority of the UR Elite homes.  

So current PE Premiere members will see a slight increase in destinations in their base club, but a significant increase in reciprocity homes/destinations.  PE Platinum will see the homes in their base club double, with a large increase in reciprocity choices as well.  PE Pinnacle will see the homes in their 'base' club increase by a factor of 7 or so, as well as a doubling of reciprocity options.  At least that is what I am hearing...


----------



## travelguy

vivalour said:


> I wouln't mind that, perhaps other clubs do this as well to test the seriousness of inquiries before sending out their confidential info. I'm wondering though how much re their business plans, company financials, etc. they will produce at this stage. Or do you have to pull it out bit-by-bit with your written questions and their written responses??? I'm just thinking maybe we will need our lawyer to go over the fine print as well.



I don't understand the concept of giving a company cash so that they have the opportunity to sell you something.  That's old school sales by snob appeal.  YOU are the customer and they should cater to YOU!  A simple NDA would achieve their purposes and is reasonable.  They need to get their customer service act together!

If they don't have a complete post-merger business plan with financials, etc. to distribute to potential members (and existing members for that matter) then that could possibly mean that the business plans are not complete!    This would not be unusual for a pre-merger business and should be of great concern to all considering membership.  Many mergers/acquisitions that start with smiling execs and good intentions end with litigation and huge legal bills and penalties.  Just yesterday, one of the more visible slam-dunk acquisitions went belly-up (KKR/Goldman Sachs and Harman) AFTER everyone assumed it had cleared all the hurdles.

Another good question, among many, is what are the contingency plans if the merger/acquisition does not work out?  What are the breakup fees (there are always breakup fees)?  Will both companies be able to sustain themselves if the merger goes bust and they end-up with huge accounting/legal/litigation fees?

As a part of the extra due diligence for this pre-merger membership, I'd ask these exact questions from both companies and see what they provide IN WRITING.  If you don't get the same response from both companies, you know that there's trouble down the road.

IMHO, The fact that they have a big marketing push without knowing the total details of the end product should be extremely alarming to all observing!


----------



## vineyarder

> Originally Posted by GOLFNBEACH
> One thing I didn't like about PE was that they required a $3K deposit (refundable) before they would even send out copies of the membership agreement to review the terms.



When was this?  Recent or long ago?  When I joined, they certainly didn't do that...  They did however, require a $3K deposit submitted WITH the completed membership materials, then after your application was completed, then you funded the rest of your membership deposit... But no deposit to look over the documents.


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## travelguy

GOLFNBEACH said:


> When the dust settles I'd like to see another merger.
> 
> Club 2: THe PE/Premier being bought by HCC.  This club would dominate the under $1MM level.  Same great locations with slightly smaller properties.  Probably a better fit for me at this time.



This doesn't make sense for HCC.  With the merger and the proposed 20% to 30% increase in PE/Premier membership fees AND annual dues, PE has essentially abdicated their position as the "value" DC alternative to HCC.  HCC also has the greater momentum adding close to 20 new members a month.  HCC has plenty of cash reserves, a good business plan that's on track and happy investors. There is no reason for HCC to buy PE/Premier UNLESS they can buy it at a fire-sale price.  Conversely, it doesn't make sense for HCC to sell to another company based upon the execution of their business plan and the investment structure.

Furthermore, I don't see how PE/UR/Premier even continues to compete with HCC post-merger.  It's possible that they intend to deemphasize this lower tier of the post-merger DC and concentrate on upgrading the current members (for more cash of course) and allowing this lower tier to stagnate while they focus on the more profitable upper lever memberships.  Kind of a scary thought for existing members.


----------



## Steamboat Bill

At the present time I view the DC market as:

ER is the top dog
UR/PE will agressivly try to beat ER
HCC will be the value leader 
BH will continue to offer postential deposit appreciation


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## LTTravel

Steamboat Bill said:


> At the present time I view the DC market as:
> 
> ER is the top dog
> UR/PE will agressivly try to beat ER
> HCC will be the value leader
> BH will continue to offer postential deposit appreciation



I would say UR/PE are trying to *keep up, at best *with ER. They *MUST* emphasize their benefits to potential members: lower yearly fee increases, transferability, family use, no reset to market, etc, not try to tell people that there is no availability at ER and to your list I would say:

Yellowstone, Ciel, ultra luxury, elite, limited memberships
Solstice, Ultra Luxury leader, but expect slow growth
Quintess: The higher end boutique leader (They have well over 400 members)
Lusso: Boutique, higher service level competitor (waiting to break out)
Portofino: don't know enough about them
DHH: late starter, international, best for those who love boats. 
Canadian, European DC's: don't know enough about them.


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## Kagehitokiri

i personally look at DHH and HCC as "cheap" and worldwide private residences as "free"


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## GOLFNBEACH

Steamboat Bill said:


> At the present time I view the DC market as:
> 
> ER is the top dog
> UR/PE will agressivly try to beat ER
> HCC will be the value leader
> BH will continue to offer postential deposit appreciation



If UR/PE wants to agressively go after ER, I think they will need to spin off the lower $1MM PE Premier club.  It's extremely difficult to cater to 3 different groups.  A Lexus shopper doesn't want to see a Camry at the same dealership.  IMO UR/PE will look into spinning off the PE Premier club.  I really see a good fit with HCC there.

IF the UR/PE merger is successful I could see them looking into BelleHavens, Quintess, etc.


----------



## LTTravel

GOLFNBEACH said:


> There is no reciprocity in the trial memership, however, do you think that ALL of the UR destinations will be defined as reciprocity to Premier Members in the merged club.  If I joined as a Premier Member would I have use of any of the UR houses, or only on a reciprocity basis?  If that is the case, then there is little benefit of the merger to PE Premier members.



I checked the PE web site again and found that all three clubs have access to the other two club levels on a reciprocity basis (up to 7 days per year) When I had looked at PE some time ago, the Pinnacle level homes were not available to the Premiere and Platinum members, but apparently, that has changed. 
So if you are a full Premiere member, you do have access to the $3million homes up to 7 days per year. But again, I believe that that is only on a space available basis.


----------



## vineyarder

> So if you are a full Premiere member, you do have access to the $3million homes up to 7 days per year.



Yes, there is still reciprocity for new members between all 3 PE clubs, so Premiere can use Platinum or Pinnacle for 7 nights per year. This should be grandfathered in for people who join PE before the merger. On the other hand, if reciprocity is maintained for new members who join after the merger, it may well be '1 up or 1 down', meaning $1M can use $2M homes, $2M members can use all three levels, and $3M can use $2M or $3M... Just an educated guess...



> But again, I believe that that is only on a space available basis.



Actually not; it can be booked as far in advance as you wish; even 2 years, 3 years or more in advance...  There are limitations on how many nights per quarter each individual home can be booked for reciprocal usage, but that is shown on the online booking calendar, so you can see if it is open for reciprocal booking the days you want, and generally availability is quite good.  Reciprocal bookings are not permitted on Holidays (Xmas/New Years) or certain other 'peak demand' periods (Thanksgiving, Easter/Spring Break, President's Week).


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

Does anyone know if the 100% refund on the PE Premier Preview is subject to 2 in, 1 out or similar rules?


----------



## vivalour

GOLFNBEACH said:


> Does anyone know if the 100% refund on the PE Premier Preview is subject to 2 in, 1 out or similar rules?



I don't think this rule applies to preview, but don't know for sure. 

Seems like a controlled risk for security-minded folks to sign on if it's a simple matter of a one-year trial with your money back if you get cold feet. I would also want to know that it is only a year, and with money refunded within a reasonable time. My husband and son are drooling over the photos in the PE kit and we are moving toward the PE premier preview. We plan to call PE later this week with all our questions.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

vivalour said:


> I don't think this rule applies to preview, but don't know for sure.
> 
> Seems like a controlled risk for security-minded folks to sign on if it's a simple matter of a one-year trial with your money back if you get cold feet. I would also want to know that it is only a year, and with money refunded within a reasonable time. My husband and son are drooling over the photos in the PE kit and we are moving toward the PE premier preview. We plan to call PE later this week with all our questions.



My understanding is that with PE Premier Preview you get 100% back at any time (not just in year 1).  You can continue in Preview if you are happy with 14 days of use.  Let me know what you find out when you call later this week.


----------



## vivalour

GOLFNBEACH said:


> My understanding is that with PE Premier Preview you get 100% back at any time (not just in year 1).  You can continue in Preview if you are happy with 14 days of use.  Let me know what you find out when you call later this week.



Yes, money back anytime is right, but we're considering a year-long trial. Will be glad to share what we learn.


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

GOLFNBEACH said:


> Does anyone know if the 100% refund on the PE Premier Preview is subject to 2 in, 1 out or similar rules?



I was told there are no restrictions on the 100% refund other than you need to be with the club for 12 months.  No 3 in, 1 out requirements.  I'm think I'm getting close to joining.


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## vivalour

GOLFNBEACH said:


> I was told there are no restrictions on the 100% refund other than you need to be with the club for 12 months.  No 3 in, 1 out requirements.  I'm think I'm getting close to joining.



Good for you!  This would be our first choice too, with the intention of trading up if things look solid. 

Btw, fanatical researcher that I am, I looked up Perry M's thread from 2006 when he was very enthusiastic about DCs and on the verge of joining HCC but decided not to. He details lots of very valid concerns then -- that he apparently still has now.... I have the impression that he thinks most DCs are not that far removed from Ponzi schemes (am I right Perry???).

Although we also love the concept of DCs, we are a bit spooked by the many recent scandals in the corporate world where there is lack of transparency on financials, and management get away with major coverups  -- even in the most respected biz orgs. To me most familiar are Tyco (I was a stockholder but came out fine) and several here in Canada. 

So before joining, my husband & I need to get clear on exactly how the DCs (in particular PE/UR & maybe HCC) are financing and maintaining their properties. And what if they have a dry spell in cash flow -- due to fall off in new memberships? Do they have retained earnings as a cushion? Why does PE have their properties under three separate companies? Is this to limit liability or ease financing arrangements? All a big mystery to us right now. 

We have had to postpone our PE phone call to next week because of our tight daytime schedules, so may email ahead some of the questions we have. Fellow newbies, pls feel free to add to our list....


----------



## GOLFNBEACH

Valid questions and concerns.  My understanding is that once you sign an NDA and provide a $3K deposit PE will provide you with an audit done by KPMG. They will also let you chat with the CFO if you have any questions.

Having said that, there are no guaranties.  PE/UR could run into problems and go out of business due to mismanagement, fraud, competition or any other reason.  That is one reason I like the Preview membership because you can get 100% back at any time and there are no 3 in, 1 out restrictions.  This provides slightly more protection.

PE Premier claims 7 full memberships per property on average.  This equates to $700K cash for a million dollar property.  This suggests a 30% leverage which seems reasonable.


----------



## vivalour

GOLFNBEACH said:


> Valid questions and concerns.  My understanding is that once you sign an NDA and provide a $3K deposit PE will provide you with an audit done by KPMG. They will also let you chat with the CFO if you have any questions.
> 
> Having said that, there are no guaranties.  PE/UR could run into problems and go out of business due to mismanagement, fraud, competition or any other reason.  That is one reason I like the Preview membership because you can get 100% back at any time and there are no 3 in, 1 out restrictions.  This provides slightly more protection.
> 
> PE Premier claims 7 full memberships per property on average.  This equates to $700K cash for a million dollar property.  This suggests a 30% leverage which seems reasonable.



Sounds good.


----------



## vineyarder

> PE Premier claims 7 full memberships per property on average. This equates to $700K cash for a million dollar property. This suggests a 30% leverage which seems reasonable.



Actually, right now the Premiere properties average $850K, so the leverage is more in the range of 18%.  After the merger, the membership fee will incease by 25 - 30%, so if it goes to $125K, the leverage will drop to about 12.5% on new $1M properties.  The average value will also be brought up by shuffling of a few of the lower-priced Platinum and UR homes into the $1M club...


----------



## vivalour

vineyarder said:


> Actually, right now the Premiere properties average $850K, so the leverage is more in the range of 18%.  After the merger, the membership fee will incease by 25 - 30%, so if it goes to $125K, the leverage will drop to about 12.5% on new $1M properties.  The average value will also be brought up by shuffling of a few of the lower-priced Platinum and UR homes into the $1M club...



Do you know if PE is still capping membership in the different clubs -- or are most clubs, as well as PE, moving away from the idea?

I guess if mergers are the way of the future, caps are a thing of the past. Looking at the entreprenuerial backgrounds of the execs managing PE & UR (buy/ develop/sell), we are wondering where they are heading with this merger.


----------



## vineyarder

> Do you know if PE is still capping membership in the different clubs -- or are most clubs, as well as PE, moving away from the idea?



After surveying members, PE removed the cap about a year ago; members said they'd prefer more destinations vs. a cap...



> I guess if mergers are the way of the future, caps are a thing of the past. Looking at the entreprenuerial backgrounds of the execs managing PE & UR (buy/ develop/sell), we are wondering where they are heading with this merger.



Not sure either...


----------



## vivalour

vineyarder said:


> After surveying members, PE removed the cap about a year ago; members said they'd prefer more destinations vs. a cap...
> Not sure either...



Interesting... BTW, how are you enjoying your HCC trial --- up to your expectations?


----------



## travelguy

vivalour said:


> Looking at the entreprenuerial backgrounds of the execs managing PE & UR (buy/ develop/sell), we are wondering where they are heading with this merger.



I'm wondering the same thing.  The sales and marketing ends of both companies are saying a lot but there are still MANY questions about the resulting PE/UR business model when the smoke clears.  In addition to the obvious financial questions, a 30% increase in new membership fees AND potential 30% increase in annual fees for ALL members does not bode well for the lower tier membership. From way on the outside looking in, it appears that PE/UR may be moving to a "mid-level" DC club model.  If so, what happens to the existing lower tier members (and those that buy-in immediately pre-merger)?

Another question is what happens when all the non-equity PE members demand that their membership be made into an equity membership since PE is now offering that to new members!


----------



## vineyarder

> a 30% increase in new membership fees AND potential 30% increase in annual fees for ALL members



This is not correct; the annual fees will only go up for NEW members; current members will still keep their current dues structure, subject to the annual 5% maximum increase (with no 'reset to market' clause)...



> From way on the outside looking in, it appears that PE/UR may be moving to a "mid-level" DC club model. If so, what happens to the existing lower tier members (and those that buy-in immediately pre-merger)?



I really don't think so; they seem to be quite committed to a 3 tier system... and current members at all tiers keep their dues structures, refund policy, etc.



> Another question is what happens when all the non-equity PE members demand that their membership be made into an equity membership since PE is now offering that to new members!



I'm sure that this will be brought up, but it doesn't seem fair to ask to have it both ways... most of the PE members bought in when it was a 100% refund, and that is still in place for them...  Those that bought in at a fixed 80% will undoubtedly want to be 'upgraded' to 80% of then current, but it seems to me that if they are going to honor all committments they've made to members wrt dues structures, members should also be expected to honor the deal that they signed on to...  That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if those members were offered, ona voluntary basis, the opportunity to convert to 80% of then current as a refund policy in exchange for a fixed number of days per year, rather than unlimited...


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## vineyarder

vivalour said:


> Interesting... BTW, how are you enjoying your HCC trial --- up to your expectations?



Can't really comment yet... Since the trial 'membership' is really one trial 7 day vaction, I won't know for sure until I stay at a HCC home... and between PE, Four Seasons, Marriott and Ritz Carlton, plus an old-fashioned second/summer beach house, my vacation schedule is booked far in advance... so I won't be using my HCC week until early next summer (thinking Playa del Carmen or Costa Rica).  

But what I love about the trial membership is that it lets me lock in current pricing for a year, so I can follow availability and how the real estate portfolio grows over the course of the year, then stay in a home, and then decide whether to committ to a full membership.  All with essentially zero risk!  That's why if I were in your position, I'd do both the PE preview and the HCC trial - get to know both clubs with essentially zero risk.


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## GOLFNBEACH

vivalour said:


> Looking at the entreprenuerial backgrounds of the execs managing PE & UR (buy/ develop/sell), we are wondering where they are heading with this merger.



Not sure I understand the question.  Entreprenuerial managers look at all the  options and mergers/acquisitions are often one of the fastest and most efficient growth strategies.


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## GOLFNBEACH

vineyarder said:


> ... and between PE, Four Seasons, Marriott and Ritz Carlton, plus an old-fashioned second/summer beach house, my vacation schedule is booked far in advance... .



You have a full time job just planning vacations...


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## Kagehitokiri

has anyone seen/heard anything about how theyre going to break down the 5 plans for the $1MM tier?


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## vivalour

GOLFNBEACH said:


> Not sure I understand the question.  Entreprenuerial managers look at all the  options and mergers/acquisitions are often one of the fastest and most efficient growth strategies.



I was looking at the bios of the CEOs and founders of both UR & PE. They have a trail of start-ups behind them which they have sold, either privately I guess, or through IPOs.  With this in mind, I am wondering about their future intentions (say three to five years from now) for these DCs. Merge again? Create a REIT?


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## travelguy

vineyarder said:


> This is not correct; the annual fees will only go up for NEW members; current members will still keep their current dues structure, subject to the annual 5% maximum increase (with no 'reset to market' clause)...



If they can't "upgrade" these members to the current annual fees it seems like this would be yet another reason for them to slowly abandon the lower tier membership and concentrate on the mid and upper tiers.




> I really don't think so; they seem to be quite committed to a 3 tier system... and current members at all tiers keep their dues structures, refund policy, etc.



The 30% increase really puts them out of contention with HCC.  I don't see what the appeal will be to buy the lower tier PE/UR membership at the increased pricing.




> I'm sure that this will be brought up, but it doesn't seem fair to ask to have it both ways... most of the PE members bought in when it was a 100% refund, and that is still in place for them...  Those that bought in at a fixed 80% will undoubtedly want to be 'upgraded' to 80% of then current, but it seems to me that if they are going to honor all committments they've made to members wrt dues structures, members should also be expected to honor the deal that they signed on to...  That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if those members were offered, ona voluntary basis, the opportunity to convert to 80% of then current as a refund policy in exchange for a fixed number of days per year, rather than unlimited...



I would seem like a logistical nightmare for the resulting PE/UR entity to manage all these different membership programs within each tier.  I understand "upgrading" and offering incentives for members to make changes on a voluntary basis BUT it seems that at some point all the membership programs must fall in-line to have any type of corporate efficiency.

The thing that really bothers me is that PE and/or UR haven't published their plan on how they intend to handle some of the basic business issues of this merger.  I would expect them to have all this nailed down BEFORE anouncing the merger.

(I apologize for being so negative but I've seen too many biz mergers/acquisitions go south because of such shortcomings)


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## vivalour

vineyarder said:


> But what I love about the trial membership is that it lets me lock in current pricing for a year, so I can follow availability and how the real estate portfolio grows over the course of the year, then stay in a home, and then decide whether to committ to a full membership.  All with essentially zero risk!  That's why if I were in your position, I'd do both the PE preview and the HCC trial - get to know both clubs with essentially zero risk.



It's very tempting. I guess the truth is I really hate to send all that deposit money off in a bottle when I could put it to good use in my trading account. Maybe we are not addicted to vacations enough....


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## vivalour

GOLFNBEACH said:


> When the dust settles I'd like to see another merger.
> 
> Club 1: The PE/Platinum/Pinnacle and the UR/Ultimate/Elite.  They would have properties at the $1.5MM and $3M levels.  2 clubs is easier to manage and would be good competition for ER.
> 
> Club 2: THe PE/Premier being bought by HCC.  This club would dominate the under $1MM level.  Same great locations with slightly smaller properties.  Probably a better fit for me at this time.



Your crystal ball may be predicting an accurate picture -- who knows?! The PE sales rep just emailed me that they expect ½ of UR homes will likely be assigned to PE's Platinum portfolio and ½ to PE Pinnacle portfolio.  But this has not been finalized and the partners are still discussing the matter. 

As well, PE properties currently under contract are Cap Cana, Dominican Republic (1 for each club level); Abaco, & Bahamas (1 for each club level).


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## LTTravel

vivalour said:


> Your crystal ball may be predicting an accurate picture -- who knows?! The PE sales rep just emailed me that they expect ½ of UR homes will likely be assigned to PE's Platinum portfolio and ½ to PE Pinnacle portfolio.  But this has not been finalized and the partners are still discussing the matter.
> 
> As well, PE properties currently under contract are Cap Cana, Dominican Republic (1 for each club level); Abaco, & Bahamas (1 for each club level).



That would be a rapid appreciation of $800,000 real estate to $1.5 million and $1.5 million to $3 million with the current real estate market.


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## Kagehitokiri

here are the property numbers >



Kagehitokiri said:


> $800K - pe premiere - 24 destinations 30 properties
> $1.5MM - pe platinum - 20 destinations 21 properties (yacht shared with premiere) (website list + breckenridge)
> $3MM - pe pinnacle - 6 destinations 6 properties
> 
> $1.5MM - ur - 22 destinations 23+ properties
> $3MM - ur elite - 21 destinations 21+ properties
> (46 properties left over, split between two tiers)
> hotels = 30+ destinations / 60 hotel properties (studios/1BR suites?) (active next month)
> 
> combined numbers >
> $800K - 24 destinations 30 properties
> $1.5MM - 35 destinations 44 properties
> $3MM - 23 destinations 27 properties
> leftovers in top 2 tiers - 46 properties
> total destinations - *44*
> total properties - *147*
> hotels - not active yet


(edited from original to clarify, since i cant edit original)

compared to ER >



Kagehitokiri said:


> PE/UR
> 44 destinations 147 properties
> 30+ destinations 60 hotel properties
> 
> ER
> 34 destinations 370 properties
> 5 "once in a lifetime" fee-based tours/safaris/cruises
> 
> (moved the world > "once in a lifetime" since they charge $450 daily fee)



they have increased the number of "once in a lifetime" dramatically since i originally posted that. they really dont seem that great to me though, even if the daily fees are low.

the 3 most interesting questions to me seem to be >
1. how will reciprocity work for current/new members?
2. what will the entry price (1st plan of 1st tier) be?
3. for any unlimited usage, will there be daily fee?

and just looking at PE's $800K tier vs HCC >
(http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54953)
PE 24 destinations 30 properties
HCC 24 destinations 29 properties (*excluding* 2 destinations/properties currently being furnished)
(also both have 1 destination/property under contract)


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## vineyarder

> Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri
> $800K - pe premiere - 24 destinations 30 properties
> $1.5MM - pe platinum - 20 destinations 21 properties (yacht shared with premiere) (website list + breckenridge)
> $3MM - pe pinnacle - 6 destinations 6 properties
> 
> $1.5MM - ur - 22 destinations 23+ properties
> $3MM - ur elite - 21 destinations 21+ properties
> (46 properties left over, split between two tiers)
> hotels = 30+ destinations / 60 hotel properties (studios/1BR suites?) (active next month)
> 
> combined numbers >
> $800K - 24 destinations 30 properties
> $1.5MM - 35 destinations 44 properties
> $3MM - 23 destinations 27 properties
> leftovers in top 2 tiers - 46 properties
> total destinations - 44
> total properties - 147
> hotels - not active yet



Since the current tiers are $850K, $1.5M & $3M, and the new tiers are going to be $1M, $2M, and $3M, my understanding is that a few PE Platinum and/or UR $1.5M properties will be shifted down to the lowest tier, in order to bring the average value from $850K to $1M, and some of the UR Elite properties will be shifted down to the second tier, to increase the average value from $1.5M to $2M, and then the top tier will still average $3M.  So I'm guessing that the combined clubs will have about 35 homes in the $1M tier, 60 homes in the $2M tier, and about 50 in the $3M tier.


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## LTTravel

vineyarder said:


> Since the current tiers are $850K, $1.5M & $3M, and the new tiers are going to be $1M, $2M, and $3M, my understanding is that a few PE Platinum and/or UR $1.5M properties will be shifted down to the lowest tier, in order to bring the average value from $850K to $1M, and some of the UR Elite properties will be shifted down to the second tier, to increase the average value from $1.5M to $2M, and then the top tier will still average $3M.  So I'm guessing that the combined clubs will have about 35 homes in the $1M tier, 60 homes in the $2M tier, and about 50 in the $3M tier.



I think far fewer in the $3million tier. At best 40


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## Kagehitokiri

was it puffpuff who was UR member? maybe he can clarify how many properties there are now in each UR tier. working from their public site, you cant tell for 46 properties. thats a _lot_. either tier _could_ be way bigger than the other.


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## vineyarder

> I think far fewer in the $3million tier. At best 40



Very possibly; I was taking a conservative view from the point of a PE Platinum member... but the fewer in the $3M tier, the better for the $2M tier.



> was it puffpuff who was UR member? maybe he can clarify how many properties there are now in each UR tier. working from their public site, you cant tell for 46 properties. thats a lot. either tier could be way bigger than the other.



Yes, puffpuff is the UR member, but I doubt he can fill in the blanks; apparently the 46 properties that are 'indeterminate' are shared between the 2 clubs; at least that's what I was told by a sales rep for UR...


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## Kagehitokiri

how can they be shared? ($1.5MM VS $3MM)



> Our members enjoy four stunning residences in Abaco, Bahamas.  Featured below is one Ultimate Resort residence and one Ultimate Resort Elite residence.


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## vineyarder

> how can they be shared? ($1.5MM VS $3MM)



I'm not sure, and the UR sales rep couldn't explain, other than to say that they were used 'in both clubs to maximize availability'... nor could he tell me what price range the 'shared' homes are in...


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## travelguy

*HCC Average Property Value*



Kagehitokiri said:


> and just looking at PE's $800K tier vs HCC >
> (http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54953)
> PE 24 destinations 30 properties
> HCC 24 destinations 29 properties (*excluding* 2 destinations/properties currently being furnished)
> (also both have 1 destination/property under contract)





> Since the current tiers are $850K, $1.5M & $3M, and the new tiers are going to be $1M, $2M, and $3M, my understanding is that a few PE Platinum and/or UR $1.5M properties will be shifted down to the lowest tier, in order to bring the average value from $850K to $1M, and some of the UR Elite properties will be shifted down to the second tier, to increase the average value from $1.5M to $2M, and then the top tier will still average $3M. So I'm guessing that the combined clubs will have about 35 homes in the $1M tier, 60 homes in the $2M tier, and about 50 in the $3M tier.



To clarify the "Property Value" issue between PE and HCC, the "target" property purchase price of HCC is $850K.  This is not the "average" price as stated by some other DCs.  As part of the last audited statement HCC did for the DCA, they had to get appraisals on all properties.  They only have three that are at or below the $850K price and some are over $1M (not including the leased properties).  My estimate is that the average property value is really closer to $1M.  HCC does say that their average property price is $850K on their web site but, as many of us now know, they are the masters of understatement and exceeding expectations!


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## LTTravel

vineyarder said:


> I'm not sure, and the UR sales rep couldn't explain, other than to say that they were used 'in both clubs to maximize availability'... nor could he tell me what price range the 'shared' homes are in...



I doubt that they share any homes, however, three homes that used to be in UR are now in UR Elite. It is possible that the original UR members were told that with the buyout of Tanner and Haley, they could still book in those three particular homes that were in UR. I am just guessing.


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## Steamboat Bill

Let's keep this thread on topic to ONLY discussions about HCC vs PE.

If you want to discuss the PE/UR merger go here

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55623


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## vivalour

*HCC web site needs more detail*

As I try to compare PE properties with HCC's, I wish HCC gave more detail about the specifics of each property on its web site. I HATE reading general marketing bumf when I am trying to get a real picture.  For example: how many people can actually sleep in the NYC apt -- is there a pull-out sofa? Where is the townhouse in Stowe  -- is it part of the Snowflake Resort or not? Perhaps you members can encourage management to hire a professional to re-tool the site with some solid, to-the-point info...


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## saluki

vivalour said:


> As I try to compare PE properties with HCC's, I wish HCC gave more detail about the specifics of each property on its web site. I HATE reading general marketing bumf when I am trying to get a real picture.  For example: how many people can actually sleep in the NYC apt -- is there a pull-out sofa? Where is the townhouse in Stowe  -- is it part of the Snowflake Resort or not? Perhaps you members can encourage management to hire a professional to re-tool the site with some solid, to-the-point info...



Did you see Perry's review a few threads down on the HCC property @ Snowflake?

The NYC unit has a sleeper sofa in addition to the separate bedroom per the HCC members portion of their site.


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## travelguy

vivalour said:


> As I try to compare PE properties with HCC's, I wish HCC gave more detail about the specifics of each property on its web site. I HATE reading general marketing bumf when I am trying to get a real picture.  For example: how many people can actually sleep in the NYC apt -- is there a pull-out sofa? Where is the townhouse in Stowe  -- is it part of the Snowflake Resort or not? Perhaps you members can encourage management to hire a professional to re-tool the site with some solid, to-the-point info...



All that info and more is in the Members section of the HCC web site.  Contact Heath in marketing and he can give you a temp pass to access the entire members side of the site.  All properties have inventory and furnishing listing, addresses, floorplans, detailed photos and some have Google Earth photos as well the typical traveling info to show you where the property is located.  It's quite detailed and professional.

The NYC property has a queen bed in the bedroom and a queen size pullout sofa. The Google Earth photo for this property is cool because it shows the property, Times Square and Central Park.

Stowe is part of the Stowflake Resort and Spa (not Snowflake) and the unit is # 648/658.  Here is PerryM's recent review: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55438

I'll be in the NYC property next weekend and will have a review of it shortly thereafter.  Call Heath and get on the HCC members web site in the interim.


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## vivalour

travelguy said:


> All that info and more is in the Members section
> I'll be in the NYC property next weekend and will have a review of it shortly thereafter.  Call Heath and get on the HCC members web site in the interim.



Good!  Thank you!  I will call Heath. 
BTW, I know exactly where the building is located in NYC --we go to visit family there fairly often and checked it out at the end of August.  It's right in the Times Square area -- streets usually jammed with tourists,  lots of activity and bright lights. Not as classy an area as the upper east side (family lives there) or Central Park, but the building looks nice and new from the exterior.


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## LTTravel

vivalour said:


> I know exactly where the building is located in NYC   It's right in the Times Square area -- streets usually jammed with tourists,  lots of activity and bright lights. Not as classy an area as the upper east side (family lives there) or Central Park, but the building looks nice and new from the exterior.



1600 Broadway has become a very popular DC apartment in NYC. In addition to HCC, PE has one at the Premiere and Pinnacle Level. Quintess has several apartments there, Lusso has two, Even the Oyster Circle has one. Not a great place to live but in the middle of Times Square so you can see the Macy's Thanksgiving Parade, The Ball Drop on New Year's Eve and walk to the Broadway Shows and numerous restaurants. Very loud and crowded, but probably good for a visitor. I have seen several of the apartments in the building. The HCC is a full one Bedroom but small. The PE Premiere is a little smaller and a studio with a partitioned off sleeping area. Both are very small, but that's what you get for the pricepoint in NY. They still beat the tiny hotel rooms in parts of Manhattan. There is a rooftop deck where you can see the sites. There is a gym and lounge with a pool table, large LCD screen, small putting green and a virtual golf driving range. Right accross the street from Hershey's and an M & M's store in the building. I am sure it will get mixed reviews.


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## Steamboat Bill

The NYC property at 1600 Broadway is awesome as I visited there last year. One problem is that all the rooftops are closed during New Years Eve by law. Other than that, it is a fantastic location. Anything on Upper East Side or Central Park will be 2-10x in price.


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## LTTravel

Steamboat Bill said:


> The NYC property at 1600 Broadway is awesome as I visited there last year. One problem is that all the rooftops are closed during New Years Eve by law. Other than that, it is a fantastic location. Anything on Upper East Side or Central Park will be 2-10x in price.



I lived in Manhattan for 20 years(years ago). Yes, Most of Central Park apartments are 2x the price but you can find cheaper apartments on the upper east side. The problem is, none of them will let in a DC. The Trump is a Condo-Hotel so it has allowed DC's and there are a few others which have been receptive but it would be very hard for most condos and impossible to find a coop that would allow a DC to enter. The owners would not want people checking in and out. 1600 Broadway is very noisy and not a very residential apartment but a tourist area, so I am sure that they decided to allow the DC concept to buy in, also keeping prices higher. The apartment is great if you are a tourist and want to see Times Square and go to Broadway Shows. The HCC and PE Premiere apartments are good for two but tight for four people.  Bill, If I wasn't a dummy and still had my 2200 sq ft apt with 10000 sq foot health club and pool I would have gladly shown you an awesome Manhattan apartment.


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## Kagehitokiri

LTTravel, do you know if ciel's condo is in the time warner building? thats a building, along with trump tower and others, that never seem to have short term rentals available. i presume its because like youre saying, they require long term leases, or at least 1 month minimums.

hmm, ER got nice 2BRs at trump, probably at a discount for buying in bulk. crescendo might have gotten somewhere other DCs couldnt because they are an REIT. and then solstice and ciel are at totally different price points.

wow, speaking of different price points >
http://solsticecollection.com/properties/cabo2/index.htm
now THAT is my kind of beachfront property


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## GOLFNBEACH

Steamboat Bill said:


> One problem is that all the rooftops are closed during New Years Eve by law. .



Oouch!  Where do you watch the ball drop...from the streets with the rest of the masses?


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## LTTravel

Kagehitokiri said:


> LTTravel, do you know if ciel's condo is in the time warner building?
> 
> ER got nice 2BRs at trump, probably at a discount for buying in bulk.
> 
> wow, speaking of different price points >
> http://solsticecollection.com/properties/cabo2/index.htm
> now THAT is my kind of beachfront property



1. I don't know if that is the Time Warner. The Time Warner is at the corner of Central Park, in Columbus Circle. The photos show don't necessarily show a corner view of Central Park. I am not sure. The windows look like the windows at Time Warner though. On looking more closely it looks like the northern tower of the Time Warner. The views out the windows are a little confusing. 
2. ER sold the Trump units and are currently on a 7 year lease back.
3. I have been in that home. I don't think it is a $6.5 million. Probably closer to $4 million. Looked at it when I was last in Cabo. The beach there has a strong undertow and is swimmable by only the strongest swimmer (my wife and kids, not me). It is nice but  The Lusso Home is nicer. The Lusso home is also >$4 million in Cabo. (Casa Lolita). It also has access to Cabo del Sol and all the resources of the Sheraton Hacienda del Mar.


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## Kagehitokiri

LTTravel, thanks, i had the same thoughts on that condo, i just dont know enough to make real judgements. having access to a MO residence would be awesome. im hoping they pick their beach properties just as well.

what brought you to the solstice property? was it being rented before they acquired it? also, do you happen to know of any places to find more pictures of the lusso home? im really confused as to its location on beach, etc. (after looking at all the resort/real estate sites for the development its in)

thats certainly good to know about the trump units..

GOLFNBEACH, 1600 broadway does have a large terrace a few stories up. not sure about the view. the roof lounge seems fairly small.


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## Steamboat Bill

LTTravel said:


> ER sold the Trump units and are currently on a 7 year lease back.



Now this is interesting news...why did they do that and are they buying into another NYC location?


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## Steamboat Bill

Kagehitokiri said:


> 1600 broadway does have a large terrace a few stories up. not sure about the view. the roof lounge seems fairly small.



There is an obstructed view of Times square by one other building. But you can see the ball from the rooftop as there is room for about 50 people or so. The 4th floor area has a Times Square obstructed view.

I guess, you will have to fight the masses to see the ball drop even thought you are only about 400 yards from the glass ball.


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## LTTravel

Kagehitokiri said:


> what brought you to the solstice property? was it being rented before they acquired it? .



Maybe the prices went up since I saw it, but they were more in the $4 million range when I was looking. I thought prices had stabilized but maybe not in Cabo. The home is in a development of 9 homes(Blue Sea). One just above it is for sale for $6million but 8100 sq ft (This one is in the 6800 sq ft range) More info at this site:
http://www.cometocabo.com/Villa_Anne-Lie.asp. 
Two other homes are still for rent but pricey, $2750-$4500/nt.


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## GOLFNBEACH

Old news for regular TUG readers...but Helium Report has an article on 4 new HCC homes.


http://www.heliumreport.com/archives/850-high-country-club-announces-four-new-homes


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## vivalour

As well, one of the HCC partners is apparently on a scouting trip for more Caribbean beach properties to add to the portfolio.


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## GOLFNBEACH

vivalour said:


> As well, one of the HCC partners is apparently on a scouting trip for more Caribbean beach properties to add to the portfolio.



Tough job.  However, he/she should probally schedule the caribbean "scouting trips" Jan-March timeframe.


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## vivalour

Yes, winter is always the best time for business people to check out the tropical monkeys.  

Looking at HCC  management, I like the idea that 3/5 have a background in the real estate and development industry; the company bean counter has the right credentials and background too; and the remaining exec is a pro in customer service and interior decorating. Simple and solid IMO. 

Three of the five execs are Kirschners, so I guess it's a family business as well....


----------

