# Trump hotel, pool "rules"



## Cyberc (May 16, 2017)

We are currently staying at the Trump Hotel in Vegas.

 My five-year-old daughter was in the pool and wearing her bikini.  When she was done she took off her top.  One of the pool girls came and asked that she put on her top again as it is the company rules. I declined and ask for the manager, the manager also said that she had to put it on because it is the company rules. I asked that she explained why it was so and she couldn't except that it was the rules. I asked to have the company rules in writing and she eventually couldn't find them in writing.

The manager said that she couldn't enforce the "rules" as they weren't in writing anywhere. So it was up to me if she should wear the top or not.

IMHO who would have a problem with a 5yo without a top and why? I don't accept rules just for the sake of the rules. I understand that a 10yo are asked to put on a top but not a 5yo. 
'
Opinions are appreciated 
TIA


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## tschwa2 (May 16, 2017)

Americans are very uptight about public nudity even partial nudity.  If your daughter was 2 or 3, there probably wouldn't be a problem but at 5 girls are expected to where a shirt or bathing suit top.


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## VegasBella (May 16, 2017)

This particular issue actually came up recently at another local spot - Town Square. The mother let her two young children play in the park splash pad in just shorts no shirt. The staff complained about both, assuming the long haired boy was a girl, then only complained about the girl. It made the news. Locals weighed in on both sides. It's controversial. 

My personal opinion is that it's fine. But I wouldn't have a problem obeying the "rules." Usually the rules say "proper swim attire" which means gendered bathing suits. 


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## Cyberc (May 16, 2017)

I would normally accept the rules but I'm having a hard time accepting them just because it's  policy. 

Imho you don't have a rule just for the rule or just to satisfy the few. 

One could argue that heavily overweight people should also cover them selves because someone feels uncomfortable. 

According to the management at this hotel also infants should cover themselves, that just don't make sense, uptight or not. 

I understand that nudity can be a hot topic for some but please don't make it a problem if it's not.


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## tschwa2 (May 16, 2017)

Then do what you want.  Its a cultural norm in the US as is eating with utensils when eating most food in a restaurant.  If you don't abide by the cultural norms you  or in this case your daughter will probably be subject to additional stares and comments just as if you decided to eat your steak and baked potato by picking it up with your hands while eating in a restaurant


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## DeniseM (May 16, 2017)

Here is my take on this - I am not comfortable with strangers, who may not have good intentions, looking at my child partially undressed.  In the US, it is the norm for little girls to wear tops or bathing suits that cover the top of the torso in public, and that seems like the prudent thing to do. 

Now, someone is going to say, "what about boys?"  In the US, it is the norm for little boys to swim with their shirts off, and it is not viewed as being exposed.


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## coronacars (May 16, 2017)

I would agree I think girls should wear a top unless they are infants.


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## Blues (May 16, 2017)

I strongly disagree with the majority of posters here.  At 5 there is nothing to see.  I would be exactly as concerned at a stranger staring at my 5 year old whether she was wearing a top or not.  Someone staring at a young child is creepy.  Most adults would not do this.  Other than that, I say let them play.


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## DeniseM (May 16, 2017)

> At 5 there is nothing to see.


   OK, but you know, child molesters are attracted to children - they aren't looking for fully developed women - that's kind of the point.  

Are you aware that _conservative statistics_ say that 1 out of 5 girls are molested during their lives? 

Have you heard of good touching and bad touching?  You teach it to children by saying that it's not OK for anyone to touch any part of their body *that is covered by their bathing suit. *

As someone who taught teenage girls for many years, and heard their stories, I believe that parents are sometimes too trusting, because they think that, "most adults would not do this."  YMMV


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## brp (May 16, 2017)

tschwa2 said:


> Then do what you want.  Its a cultural norm in the US as is eating with utensils when eating most food in a restaurant.  If you don't abide by the cultural norms you  or in this case your daughter will probably be subject to additional stares and comments just as if you decided to eat your steak and baked potato by picking it up with your hands while eating in a restaurant



Exactly. Cultural norms that make no sense should be challenged. Of course, if people care whether someone "stares" at them for failing to follow the sheeple, then they may not be the ones to challenge the irrational norms.

Cheers.


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## brp (May 16, 2017)

Change of mind on this post


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## Cyberc (May 16, 2017)

tschwa2 said:


> Then do what you want.  Its a cultural norm in the US as is eating with utensils when eating most food in a restaurant.  If you don't abide by the cultural norms you  or in this case your daughter will probably be subject to additional stares and comments just as if you decided to eat your steak and baked potato by picking it up with your hands while eating in a restaurant



I don't care what other people think of me they can talk all they want. I do however care about my family and in this case my daughter. I don't wanna teach my daughter that it's bad to run around half naked, in this case only wearing her bikini bottom. At the age of 5 she looks just the same as the boys, as she grows older she will need to keep the top on also. I accept norms if they in any way makes sense, but this is just ridiculous.


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## Cyberc (May 17, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Here is my take on this - I am not comfortable with strangers, who may not have good intentions, looking at my child partially undressed.  In the US, it is the norm for little girls to wear tops or bathing suits that cover the top of the torso in public, and that seems like the prudent thing to do.
> 
> Now, someone is going to say, "what about boys?"  In the US, it is the norm for little boys to swim with their shirts off, and it is not viewed as being exposed.



I don't think any parent would be comfortable if a stranger looked at their child dressed or half dressed. Since it's the norm there must be a valid reason, because at the age of 5 boys and girls look the same. I don't accept that it's just because she is a girl, that's not a reason. 



coronacars said:


> I would agree I think girls should wear a top unless they are infants.


Why?



Blues said:


> I strongly disagree with the majority of posters here.  At 5 there is nothing to see.  I would be exactly as concerned at a stranger staring at my 5 year old whether she was wearing a top or not.  Someone staring at a young child is creepy.  Most adults would not do this.  Other than that, I say let them play.



Agree. 



DeniseM said:


> OK, but you know, child molesters are attracted to children - they aren't looking for fully developed women - that's kind of the point.
> 
> Are you aware that _conservative statistics_ say that 1 out of 5 girls are molested during their lives?
> 
> ...



I assume that those who do have a tendency to look at children look at both boys and girls - guess that some might have a preference. In that case boys would need to cover themselves too wouldn't you agree? Boys are just as exposed as girls when they only wear their trunks. 

In my book, trust is not something you get it's something you earn. Meaning I don't trust strangers when it comes to my children. 



brp said:


> Exactly. Cultural norms that make no sense should be challenged. Of course, if people care whether someone "stares" at them for failing to follow the sheeple, then they may not be the ones to challenge the irrational norms.
> 
> Cheers.



Agree, people can talk all they want - I don't care. 

I would go so far as to say that if you need to care about what other people think and say of you, you might have other issues you need to worry about.


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## davidvel (May 17, 2017)

Cyberc said:


> IMHO who would have a problem with a 5yo without a top and why? I don't accept rules just for the sake of the rules. *I understand that a 10yo are asked to put on a top but not a 5yo. *
> '
> Opinions are appreciated
> TIA


Just curious, why do you understand that a 10yo girl is asked to put on a top? Most 10yo girls have the same chest as a 10yo boy. 

Many people feel the way you do. Many also feel that women or men of any age should be able to go to a public pool completely naked because there is no shame or need to hide human body. They think the rules are dumb.


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## cissy (May 17, 2017)

I can't believe anyone would make such an issue of this.  If you don't like the rules, no one is forcing you to go there.  "When in Rome......"


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## brp (May 17, 2017)

davidvel said:


> Just curious, why do you understand that a 10yo girl is asked to put on a top? Most 10yo girls have the same chest as a 10yo boy.
> 
> Many people feel the way you do. Many also feel that women or men of any age should be able to go to a public pool completely naked because there is no shame or need to hide human body. They think the rules are dumb.



First, I disagree about "most" 10 year old girls having the same development as boys. That's does not comport with my experience in life.

Second, whatever one may think about public nudity, it's a law (in most places, anyway). So there are different consequences (and burdens of enforcement) for this rule.

I run races without a shirt. Always have always will. At one race an older gentleman came up to me before the race and commented that some of the women were uncomfortable with my not wearing a shirt.

I said, "Yeah, I can understand that. I support their right to run the race without a shirt as well." The conversation was over.

Some support the puritanical society that we have here. Some, including I, don't. When it's law, we have less choice. When it's arbitrary rule, we do. And this applies in general. I refuse to follow rules (and even some laws) just because they are rules. I do it if it makes sense and if not following materially (in my own opinion) harms someone. And I don't consider "it's a rule and I don't want to see that" to be material harm. But that's me.

Cheers.


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## Jason245 (May 17, 2017)

Cyberc said:


> We are currently staying at the Trump Hotel in Vegas.
> 
> My five-year-old daughter was in the pool and wearing her bikini.  When she was done she took off her top.  One of the pool girls came and asked that she put on her top again as it is the company rules. I declined and ask for the manager, the manager also said that she had to put it on because it is the company rules. I asked that she explained why it was so and she couldn't except that it was the rules. I asked to have the company rules in writing and she eventually couldn't find them in writing.
> 
> ...


Cultural and social norms vary depending on the country you goto and their history.  

Part of being a traveler is to understand and learn this.  

Examples:  don't ask for meal modifications in many/most parts of Europe,  tip in the usa for restaurant service,  and be cognizant of cultural norms when it comes to atire (no matter were you are).

What I find funny is when Europeans make fun of American tourists or stare at them for various things that cause them to stand out (which also makes them target for pick pockets).. 

And Americans do same things to European tourists when they come here.

To me all these conversations serve a greater good in helping to educate people of all different cultures of those cultures they may not have been exposed to before and act in a manner that demostrates respect to the country and people you are visiting. 







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## bizaro86 (May 17, 2017)

Jason245 said:


> What I find funny is when Europeans make fun of American tourists or stare at them for various things that cause them to stand out (which also makes them target for pick pockets)..
> 
> And Americans do same things to European tourists when they come here.
> k



That sort of depends on whether you're being rude, and whether you're wrong. 

Everyone stared at a tourist yelling at a bus driver where I was awhile back. She was speaking to him in Spanish that matches my own high school quality version, and interspersed it with yelling about why he wasn't answering and she was speaking Spanish and knows lots of Spanish people.

Sometimes that would just have been rude, but we were in Lisbon, so she was wrong as well.


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## elleny76 (May 17, 2017)

Anyone who wears a female "bikini" bottom is expected to wear a 'top" since its 2 pieces. If your DD likes not to wear top then get her a pair of trunks and will be more sporty.

(BIKINI: a very brief, close-fitting, two-piece bathing suit for women or girls. )


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## elleny76 (May 17, 2017)

brp said:


> First, I disagree about "most" 10 year old girls having the same development as boys. That's does not comport with my experience in life.
> 
> Second, whatever one may think about public nudity, it's a law (in most places, anyway). So there are different consequences (and burdens of enforcement) for this rule.
> 
> ...



Hopefully "the women" were uncomfortable because you have a "hot" body with a full 6pack..lol    (otherwise I would be uncomfortable too...lol and shirt will be needed) lol


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## DazedandConfused (May 17, 2017)

wow, I am surprised this tread did not get political yet


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## coronacars (May 17, 2017)

Girls are raised in public to become women and boys are be raised to become men.


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## coronacars (May 17, 2017)

You asked for an opinion then you are arguing against people's opinions when they give them.  Clearly you really don't want people's opinions.  You are just trying to justify your beliefs.  It's not a law.  You can do what you like, but no matter how you try to spin it this is out of them norm at what happens here in the US at pools.  If you don't believe me go to several pools and look around and see how many 5 year old girls are going without tops and see for yourself.


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## VegasBella (May 17, 2017)

A lot of people are saying this is cultural. But I gave an example right here in Vegas where this was very controversial. It's NOT cultural if it's controversial among the people in the culture. That's like saying 'being against gay marriage in the US is cultural and it's the norm' - well it was until just a few years ago and now the majority are ok with gay marriage ... but it's still controversial. So it's not "cultural" either way. It's controversial! It's an UNSETTLED issue in THIS culture. 

This is particularly true because in Vegas many people who live here are very laid back about nudity and we have a few topless pools. But we also have an LDS history. So *all of you saying "this is cultural" are just WRONG. *Sorry, but you're wrong. You will find many Las Vegans who think a little kindergartner-age child should cover up and plenty who don't. We disagree about this issue! It's not one way or the other.




cissy said:


> I can't believe anyone would make such an issue of this.  If you don't like the rules, no one is forcing you to go there.  "When in Rome......"



Except that is WASN'T a rule, as stated in the first post. There's no rule about it. 



DeniseM said:


> OK, but you know, child molesters are attracted to children - they aren't looking for fully developed women - that's kind of the point.
> Are you aware that _conservative statistics_ say that 1 out of 5 girls are molested during their lives?
> Have you heard of good touching and bad touching?  You teach it to children by saying that it's not OK for anyone to touch any part of their body *that is covered by their bathing suit.*
> As someone who taught teenage girls for many years, and heard their stories, I believe that parents are sometimes too trusting, because they think that, "most adults would not do this."  YMMV



It's one thing to be laissez-faire about clothing and entirely another thing to be laissez-faire about parental supervision. These are entirely separate issues. 
*Any responsible parent at a pool does not let their children out of sight. *Besides the very low risk of stranger pedophilia at a public pool (most of that molestation you reference occurs between NONstrangers and not out in public places)* there is the very real risk of DROWNING. *

AND, the better way to teach children is to tell them that they have control over their bodies and that no one should touch them in ways they don't want to be touched. It's not just about 'touching parts that are covered by their bathing suits' it's about unwanted touching, period. You teach them how to say NO and you teach them that it's OK to tell a grown up. You explain that they never have to keep a secret they don't want to keep and it's always OK to tell Mommy about anything someone does to them.


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## VacationForever (May 17, 2017)

I don't think one is right or wrong.  Whatever that is not obvious that a property wants to enforce should be in writing.

I cannot withstand hot weather... When I was young, probably up to the age of 7 or so, I used to take my top off during a hot day when I was home or at my father's business.  People in the neighborhood used to say I was a tomboy, more amused than disapproving.  My parents did not care whether I had a top on or not.  If I have a daughter that age, I would have told her not to remove her top...


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## Talent312 (May 18, 2017)

Cyberc said:


> One could argue that heavily overweight people should also cover themselves because someone feels uncomfortable.



I've seen some overweight people wearing speedos. <shudder>
Also, older, saggy peep... I wear shorts becuz I'm heading in that direction.


.


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## SmithOp (May 18, 2017)

It would be interesting to know what their policy is on the string bikinis young women are wearing nowadays, far more revealing than a 5 yr old without a top.


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## 1Kflyerguy (May 18, 2017)

Talent312 said:


> I've seen some overweight people wearing speedos. <shudder>
> Also, older, saggy peep... I wear shorts becuz I'm heading in that direction.
> 
> .



Me too,  as a larger person, I wear trunks and a sun rash guard / swim shirt...  Protects me from the sun, and avoids looking ridicules... 



SmithOp said:


> It would be interesting to know what their policy is on the string bikinis young women are wearing nowadays, far more revealing than a 5 yr old without a top.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I was thinking the same thing,  there was a young lady in a very skimpy bikini earlier this week at the Kings Land pool.  I was not offended, but it seemed a bit out of place at family orient resort..


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## vacationhopeful (May 18, 2017)

I was a lifeguard for several summers (back years before the internet.. enough said?).

Swimsuits got worn. Sometimes the boys wore tee shirt tops with their trunks and girls worn either 1 piece or 2 piece outfits. No wet tee shirts only for the females.

First job was at a small pool. I would show up almost an hours early to clean the pool, backwash the filters and reset the chemicals plus add water to the pool. I might do these chores in a Bikini suit .. itsy-bitty size ....to help blend in my various tan lines for my off time affairs. I guarded in 1 piece suits. The pool president's wife showed up early ... was shocked by my bikini ... I was 19 and had spent the last 9 months near Daytona Beach in Florida ... told her I was working on tan lines (which I was) and would NEVER guard in that style of swim wear.

The next summer, I worked a lake ... mostly the late afternoon til 8PM shift (as I took AM college classes) ... always in a 1 piece suit as these teenage boys swimmers were SHARKS. Swimsuit failure was a concern .. particularly in a lake setting. Seemed a lot of teenage girls' mothers preferred 1 piece swimwear also for their daughters.


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## jehb2 (May 18, 2017)

We were at a kiddie park at Disney World that had a lot of water features.  There were a lot of little kids running around without tops.  My daughter was 16 months.  I let her run around without a top and a young female employee told me she had to wear a top.  My daughter was so little and didn't have a lot of hair. The only reason you could tell she was a girl was because she was wearing pink.


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## sjuhawk_jd (May 18, 2017)

I think this is all "fake misunderstanding based on fake rules" 

So unfair to the good people running the hotel.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 18, 2017)

FWIW...this spring, there was a 20-something woman at the Intercontinental LA pool who was topless. No one flinched or told her to put on a top (perhaps this is LA?). It was customary for women in French and Greek beaches to not wear tops (at least this was customary 30 year ago when I visited - no big deal - even grandmas were topless), not sure about today.

I personally do not have issues with a 5 year old girl without a top, however just as some restaurants require shirts and shoes and have dress codes, I think it is the right of the hotel to demand a dress code and patrons should comply when the dress code is reasonable.


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## Talent312 (May 18, 2017)

CalGalTraveler said:


> It was customary for women in French and Greek beaches to not wear tops (at least this was customary 30 year ago when I visited...



As of 4 years ago, still customary in Greece and Côte d'Azur, and more
recently on So-Be, Miami, as my camera with a telephoto lens can attest.


.


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## DeniseM (May 18, 2017)

> As of 4 years ago, still customary in Greece and Côte d'Azur, as my camera with a telephoto lens can attest.



Really?  You want people to know that you took pictures of women's breasts, strangers who did not know they were being photographed, with a telephoto lens?  

Not too late to delete your post.


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## brp (May 18, 2017)

elleny76 said:


> Hopefully "the women" were uncomfortable because you have a "hot" body with a full 6pack..lol    (otherwise I would be uncomfortable too...lol and shirt will be needed) lol



Not quite, but pretty close, actually.

But I used to run when I weighed more and wasn't as fit. And if the reason really was that I was overweight at the time, then that reason "ewww..that person is not fit and trim" would hold less weight (so to speak ) than other arguments.

Anyway, it was the "spokesman" that approached me, so I have no idea of the reason...but seriously doubt that was it.

Cheers.


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## rapmarks (May 18, 2017)

For many years I taught with a Greek woman.  She looked down on "Americans" because we were not sophisticated like her.  They went to Greece every year with their teen age daughter to nude beaches.  In fact, she claimed that her husband and her high school age daughter took showers together.  I didn't care to live her lifestyle and if it made me provincial, so what


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## elleny76 (May 19, 2017)

brp said:


> Not quite, but pretty close, actually.
> 
> But I used to run when I weighed more and wasn't as fit. And if the reason really was that I was overweight at the time, then that reason "ewww..that person is not fit and trim" would hold less weight (so to speak ) than other arguments.
> 
> ...


LMAO.. thanks for the laugh!  "eww..that person is not fit and trim."  lmao  ( meaning please wear a tshirt...lol)
___________________________________________________



rapmarks said:


> For many years I taught with a Greek woman.  She looked down on "Americans" because we were not sophisticated like her.  They went to Greece every year with their teen age daughter to nude beaches.  In fact, she claimed that her husband and her high school age daughter took showers together.  I didn't care to live her lifestyle and if it made me provincial, so what
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




Gross and disturbing..Totally NOT sophisticated that Greek woman.


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## brp (May 19, 2017)

elleny76 said:


> ( meaning please wear a tshirt...lol)
> 
> 
> Or not. And that was then. Apparently, the "rules" say that it would be OK now...
> ...


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## barrey (May 24, 2017)

brp said:


> I run races without a shirt. Always have always will. At one race an older gentleman came up to me before the race and commented that some of the women were uncomfortable with my not wearing a shirt.
> 
> I said, "Yeah, I can understand that. I support their right to run the race without a shirt as well." The conversation was over.



Great comeback.

-barrey


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## Maverick1963 (May 27, 2017)

In Japan, there is a long-run, famous anime, DORAEMON.  There used to be a scene where Shizuka-chan, 10 or 11 year old heroine,
soaks herself in a deep bath tab.  You could see her shoulders and head.  As long as I understand, not a once in the long history.

It is well known that those scenes are cut off when exported from Japan to foreign countries.  These days, you do not see Shizuka
take a bath in Japanese original episodes.  Not so much different from smoking (i.e. political correctness).  You will seldom see
smoking scenes in American movies.  I believe only mafia members smoke in Japanese movies.  In TV dramas and movies,
no fathers smoke at home.  Children always wear swim suits.

In old days, no top on a five year old girl was totally okay.  Still not a problem depending upon where you are.  But problems happen. 
Otherwise, we need no children porngraphy law.  In my personal view, it's fine that five year old girl is topless if it's public beach, and as long as
you follow laws and your daughter is not annoying anyone.  At hotel pools, you may want to respect their rules, even if not
in writing, just because of those changes developing in the world we live in.


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## icydog (May 27, 2017)

When I was young, many years ago, little girls did not wear swimsuit tops.  If you look at the Coppertone Girl's picture you'll see she is only wearing bottoms (as was the norm when the advertising campaign started).

We have turned into a country that sustains rules that should never have been made. Rules for everything.  I'm sick of idiotic rules that make no sense.  If the parents of a five year old girl decide it's okay for her not to wear a two inch strip (top) over part of her body, then they should have the last word. If little boys can go topless then little girls should be able to do the same. The operative word is little. 

In NYC's Central Park they've removed the ban on women going topless.  The rationale is women have equal rights with men-- who go topless.


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## jeepinjoel (Jun 7, 2017)

I'm SO glad you stood your ground.  Americans like to think they (we) are open minded and tolerant... this is example of how we are behind the Europeans.  Breast feeding in public is another area.


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## Duanerice (Jun 13, 2017)

I think this just took up way too much of your time already.  i guess it was important to you.  Me, I'd just have her put a top on and go about my day.  I'm on vacation, I don't need to talk to a manager about something so trivial.  I don't care if she wears a top or not, it's just not worth any time or getting upset, which apparently it did to you becasue your still commenting on it.  There was no life lesson to be learned here.

enjoy


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## DeniseM (Jun 13, 2017)

> it's just not worth any time or getting upset, which apparently it did to you *becasue your still commenting on it*. There was no life lesson to be learned here.



You are mistaken - the OP has not posted in this thread for a month.


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## brp (Jun 13, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> You are mistaken - the OP has not posted in this thread for a month.





Duanerice said:


> ...which apparently it did to you becasue *your *still commenting on it.



True the above. Also, if you're going to be (apparently incorrectly) criticizing someone, at least have the decency not to say "your" 

Cheers.


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## Talent312 (Jun 14, 2017)

No one expects the Grammar Police!

IMHO, as long as the text is clear enuff, minor errors in posts ought to be overlooked, unless that is, we want to have a laugh at their expense.


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## davidvel (Jun 14, 2017)

Talent312 said:


> *No one expects the Grammar Police!*
> 
> IMHO, as long as the text is clear enuff, minor errors in posts ought to be overlooked, unless that is, we want to have a laugh at their expense.


Accept win there calling out someone else's in a rude manner.


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## brp (Jun 14, 2017)

Talent312 said:


> No one expects the Grammar Police!
> 
> IMHO, as long as the text is clear enuff, minor errors in posts ought to be overlooked, unless that is, we want to have a laugh at their expense.



In general, I agree (and one comment is hardly Grammar Police considering how rich the playing field is on the interwebs, so not a particularly relevant comment, I think).

In the case where someone is being (incorrectly, in this case) snide, I would expect that they would, at the least, do it correctly.

Others will (and do) disagree with this. So be it.

Cheers.


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## tschwa2 (Jun 14, 2017)




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## Talent312 (Jun 15, 2017)

That really dates us, tschwa2.  Monty Python was big in the 70's (45 years ago).


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## Luanne (Jun 15, 2017)

Talent312 said:


> That really dates us, tschwa2.  Monty Python was big in the 70's (45 years ago).


My daughters, who were born in 1988 and 1990 LOVE Monty Python.  Mostly thanks to their father.


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## brp (Jun 15, 2017)

Talent312 said:


> That really dates us, tschwa2.  Monty Python was big in the 70's (45 years ago).



And yet we all know much of it...word for word...

How many have used it in a work or social situation? :hand raised emoji:

Almost as much as 






Cheers.


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