# How can Wyndham owners effectively complain?



## richardm (May 31, 2017)

Anyone have ideas on how Club Wyndham owners can effectively register complaints? Here are three topics for discussion:


File complaints with the Better Business Bureau?
File complaints with the Florida Attorney Generals office?
Register and hope to speak at the annual meeting?

1) I wonder if enough complaints and negative reviews were registered on the BBB if that could have an impact.  A complaint to the BBB does normally trigger an official "letter" and "inquiry". Plus, if deemed a valid complaint or if the business doesn't respond- the complaint is registered for the public to see. Would there be a downside to filing a complaint?

https://www.bbb.org/central-florida...ham-vacation-ownership-in-orlando-fl-20000283

2) Would enough complaints to the Florida AG put pressure on Wyndham to right the ship? The actions taken against Diamond by the Arizona Attorney Generals office show that when motivated- an Attorney General can hit back really, really hard. Do you think that the Florida AG would take these complaints seriously?

http://myfloridalegal.com/contact.nsf/contact?Open&Section=Citizen_Services

3) There was a thread discussing this, but it didn't look to be very easy. If members can't attend or be heard at the meeting, would enough be able to organize a protest off property? Or perhaps multiple protests at multiple resort locations? The local news in Orlando broadcast a few of these rallys in the past that were directed at another timeshare developer. Nothing like a few family's holding signs to get a developers attention.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/2017-owners-meeting-august-2nd-of-2017.251269/

Any other thoughts or ideas? Wyndham is a public company so negative press is something they would naturally prefer to avoid. They've always done a good job of containing the exposure from various lawsuits and complaints, but it looks like the anger from some owners over these last changes  is starting to get out.  I have to wonder if Wyndham's new CEO was really aware of the potential problems when he took the job in April? All these changes were planned long before he arrived. He just gets to carry the burden of all the damage control..


----------



## breezez (May 31, 2017)

1). The AG would be best....  

2.) Bring something up next quarter on their quarterly conference call when line opened for questions.   If their stock price starts moving the wrong way they will listen and start singing to a new tune.  Just look at United Airlines CEO 

3) Contact your local news agencies that do consumer protection stories.   The more press that gets out there about there disastrous new site roll over the more they will begin to listen.

4) I'm not much into social media but create a hashtag and see if it can go viral. News outlets track what is trending.


----------



## CandyLancaster (Jun 1, 2017)

I agree with Richard.  We need to do something.  The least Wyndham could have done was either grandfathered.  us in or given us notice of these changes (1 year) to prepare and get our own finances in order.  Who is willing to get the ball rolling?


----------



## CO skier (Jun 1, 2017)

breezez said:


> 3) Contact your local news agencies that do consumer protection stories.   The more press that gets out there about there disastrous new site roll over the more they will begin to listen.


There are consumer protection YouTube videos about Wyndham, and have been for years.

When someone hears the word "timeshare" their eyes either glaze over or start rolling.  "Everyone" knows timeshares are a scam.  An inept timeshare reservation system introduction will not make the 5 o'clock news.

Patience.  If there is anything to this, it will affect summer upgrade sales to existing owners.  That will affect 3rd quarter WYN earnings and get the attention (too late for Club Wyndham) of management, but it might help Shell and WorldMark owners by severely delaying the introduction of V'ger into those systems.

All the BBB complaints and protests will not have any effect.  I think TUG presents a disproportionate view of the changes, because it is disproportionately populated by VIP owners using Club Wyndham as a rental business.  This is not the average owner.  The average owners are the ones upgrading to VIP.  TUG VIPs are already there and know not to enter into a retail purchase.  As difficult as the Voyager introduction has been, I do not think it will create a blip on 3rd quarter earnings, jmo.

(The average TUG member is not "Everyone" and knows how a properly fitting timeshare [including Club Wyndham] can add immensely to their vacation enjoyment.  That, at least, is my experience as an average timeshare owner who uses timeshares for personal vacations.)


----------



## Bigrob (Jun 2, 2017)

Yeah on this point I agree with Co Skier. A less-than-perfect new owner website rollout isn't going to grab headlines. More likely to grab attention is the recent lawsuits where Wyndham is in essence being accused of predatory marketing and preying on the elderly. You need a sympathetic "victim" and egregious actions by the "villain" to get attention. 

I'm not sure how much legal merit the cases actually have (the stories are sad and altogether too familiar, but in essence they are relying on the court ruling that oral representations should be legally binding and perhaps even have precedence over the "long" or "referenced" contracts received by Plaintiff). That being said, I do believe the Tenn. cases have some similarity to the recent Wisconsin settlement and may reach a similar conclusion.


----------



## BellaWyn (Jun 2, 2017)

CO Skier said:
			
		

> I think TUG presents a disproportionate view of the changes, because it is disproportionately populated by VIP owners using Club Wyndham as a rental business.


*Disagree.*

There are a lot of TUG lurkers and posters that are NOT VIP or in the rental business. The TUG discussions of the changes mirror much of what is happening in other social media groups, also not soley populated with VIP or people in the rental business.


----------



## CO skier (Jun 2, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> soley populated with VIP


You exaggerate.

I did not write, "solely populated by VIPs".  I wrote, "disproportionately populated by VIPs".  I am sure that Facebook is the same, because VIPs who gamed the system with cancel/rebook and cancel/rebook/upgrade are most affected by the new Guidelines and they display their displeasure on TUG and Facebook.

Meanwhile, owners who had no access to the cancel/rebook/upgrade scam feel no effects from the automatic upgrades, because the average owner is not VIP and is not affected by the auto-upgrade benefit.


----------



## MAKEITRIGHT (Jun 2, 2017)

VIPs gamed the system??? Cancel/Rebook/upgrade scam? If you go to buy a car and the model comes in 5 different trim levels. A) Entry Level Grade $25,000 B) Luxury Edition $50,000 C) Sport $75,000 D) Executive Luxury Edition $100,000 E) Executive Sport Edition $175,000. The sale person convinced to go with The Executive Sport Edition because of all the benefits you would have. And it's not just one sale person, it is the whole dealership. You hesitated, but you finally gave in and you are all excited. You signed your life a away. You can't even believe that you spend that much money. But then you thought of all the things they promised you it would be and you say to yourself "Yes! This is for me and my family." But then, after a few months of driving the Executive Sport Edition, they drove car A to you and said, "Sorry! We didn't mean what we said. You can't have car E, but you still get a great car in car A". Who's playing game??? Who got scammed?


----------



## CO skier (Jun 2, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> Cancel/Rebook/upgrade scam?


Yes, it has taken a few years, but that is how it is generally recognized.

Most importantly, Wyndham finally recognized that cancel/rebook and cancel/rebook/upgrade is a scam.


----------



## MAKEITRIGHT (Jun 2, 2017)

I think the VIPs is the ones that got scammed. Wyndham told us we can cancel/rebook/upgrade. They taught us this in every "updates" over and over again. This is how they convinced VIPs to spent hundreds of thousands of dollars.


----------



## CO skier (Jun 2, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> Wyndham told us we can cancel/rebook/upgrade.


You can still cancel a reservation.

You can still book a reservation.

You can still upgrade a reservation, if you are VIP.   And now the upgrade is automatic, so you do not have to spend hours searching.  Bonus!

What have you lost?


----------



## MAKEITRIGHT (Jun 2, 2017)

You said VIPs gamed the system and by using exactly what we were taught to do, we scammed this system. This is not right. The changes are not what was told to us that we can do. Like I said above, We bought the E car but now Wyndham said, "No, you can only get the A car even though you paid for the E car." VIPs are the ones that got scammed.


----------



## CO skier (Jun 2, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> You said VIPs gamed the system and by using exactly what we were taught to do, we scammed this system. This is not right. The changes are not what was told to us that we can do. Like I said above, We bought the E car but now Wyndham said, "No, you can only get the A car even though you paid for the E car." VIPs are the ones that got scammed.


Well, OK -- suit yourself.


----------



## kukenan (Jun 2, 2017)

CO skier said:


> There are consumer protection YouTube videos about Wyndham, and have been for years.
> 
> When someone hears the word "timeshare" their eyes either glaze over or start rolling.  "Everyone" knows timeshares are a scam.  An inept timeshare reservation system introduction will not make the 5 o'clock news.
> 
> ...



Hello, new owner here, bought resale thanks to TUG and all the info posted in this subforum. As a new owner I only used the old system for about a month, and I really prefer the new one (voyager), maybe because I'm not "used to" the old one. I like online ARP, search by location, points logging. 

I knew that Wyndham was going to get a lot of problems with the new system rollover, it'll take months to get bugs fixed, get feedback, code old features, but I think it was a necessity to bring the new system online from my IT guy point of view (points logging, cancel/rebook loophole). 

I agree with CO skier, patience, and over time WE Wyndham owners will get a better system, with better accounting and better features than the old one. 

There is going to be a LOT of bugs, problems and confusion with a system migration of this size. I think it's going fast, considering a 500k user base, data migration and a new system.


----------



## BellaWyn (Jun 2, 2017)

CO skier said:


> You exaggerate.


Or, perhaps you exaggerate?

1) You have no data to support the porportionate perspective because you have no way of knowing how many lurkers are reading these forums (or those who do minimal amounts of posting) are VIP vs non-VIP. You cannot know what you cannot see.  It's, much like sales, invented information your posturing of what's proportionate vs disproportionate.  You can THINK it but you still don't KNOW it. 

2) You inferred an absolute.  All I did was disagree.

3) Fascinating that you seem so passionate about being the representing voice of ALL non-VIP owners in the entire system.  Suggest you speak only for yourself and not for the entire non-VIP ownership base.


----------



## Sandi Bo (Jun 2, 2017)

It not acceptable to roll out a system before it's ready.  Sure there will be issues when rolling out a new system. But WYN had a responsibility to do this right.   They couldn't, so they are implementing by brute force. 

Patience is not an IT strategy.


----------



## BellaWyn (Jun 2, 2017)

Sandi Bo said:


> *Patience is not an IT strategy.*


Amen to that! 

Imagine the chaos fallout if this had been a rollout of stock trading system.  

The "Oop, sorry, we take it back" or "sorry, not all of your shares have been migrated yet" or "Sorry, the shares for those stocks have not been populated in the new system" approach would be hitting a mighty big fan for blowback.

Do not think the "patience" suggestion would sit well.  Why should it for WYN owners?


----------



## ronparise (Jun 2, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> Or, perhaps you exaggerate?
> 
> 1) You have no data to support the porportionate perspective because you have no way of knowing how many lurkers are reading these forums (or those who do minimal amounts of posting) are VIP vs non-VIP. You cannot know what you cannot see.  It's, much like sales, invented information your posturing of what's proportionate vs disproportionate.  You can THINK it but you still don't KNOW it.
> 
> ...




I think COSkier is right.. this place does have a lot of VIP owners... But i think you are right too, The regular owner is a Vip

Ive been to a number of the annual meetings and im always surprised by the number of VIP owners in the room..It seems like nearly everyone is a VIP


----------



## kukenan (Jun 2, 2017)

Sandi Bo said:


> It not acceptable to roll out a system before it's ready.  Sure there will be issues when rolling out a new system. But WYN had a responsibility to do this right.   They couldn't, so they are implementing by brute force.
> 
> *Patience is not an IT strategy*.



Not an IT strategy, it's a user strategy. 

In a system this big, wyndham IT maybe tested hundreds of use cases, but there are thousands.


----------



## Bigrob (Jun 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I think COSkier is right.. this place does have a lot of VIP owners... But i think you are right too, The regular owner is a Vip
> 
> Ive been to a number of the annual meetings and im always surprised by the number of VIP owners in the room..It seems like nearly everyone is a VIP



It would not surprise me that the annual meetings are disproportionately represented by VIP owners who have the most invested. It may also be true that the more vocal posters on TUG and social media sites may be VIPs; larger point owners who use the system more and are generally more knowledgeable about it as a result. For the casual owner who may not even have set up an online account and always calls their friendly vacation counselor to book their vacations, they may not even notice the difference.

Having said that, such an owner is not truly a "user" of the system so their lack of negative input can't really be interpreted as meaningful.


----------



## paxsarah (Jun 2, 2017)

CO skier said:


> Meanwhile, owners who had no access to the cancel/rebook/upgrade scam feel no effects from the automatic upgrades, because the average owner is not VIP and is not affected by the auto-upgrade benefit.



Non-VIP owners who make short-notice plans (I tend not to be one and try to plan 10-13 months out, but certainly these folks exist) will be impacted by the fact most inventory under 60 days may never make it to the website and will go straight to someone else's upgrade. Unless they're looking for a studio or 1BR, even the frequent searching and refreshing that used to occasionally catch someone's intended cancel/rebook will yield nothing.

Assuming the system functions like we think it will. Which, I guess, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Braindead (Jun 2, 2017)

When looked up the Orlando Sentinel article on the launch of Voger. I clicked on comments at the bottom.

First comment. Timeshare are a scam and everyone knows that. I don't feel sorry for them


----------



## chapjim (Jun 2, 2017)

CO skier said:


> You can still cancel a reservation.
> 
> You can still book a reservation.
> 
> ...



This is maybe your smuggest, snarkiest post yet.


----------



## tschwa2 (Jun 2, 2017)

[QUOTE="CO skier, post: 2011062, member: 63558"

(The average TUG member is not "Everyone" and knows how a properly fitting timeshare [including Club Wyndham] can add immensely to their vacation enjoyment.  That, at least, is my experience as an average timeshare owner who uses timeshares for personal vacations.)[/QUOTE]

That may be true but the facebook group has a lot less renters and still seems to have a large number of VIP who are angry and were sold to the tune of $100,000 plus on the ability to get 1 million points and get 2 million points or more through the cancel/rebook/upgrade method.  At least 2/3's of the VIP's seemed to do this on a regular basis and are absolutely miffed because they felt they had been sold this right to use the system in that way.    

Personally I would imagine many of these VIP's owned pre 2008 and saw those major changes with point transfers and guest certs so I am surprised that so many are so astonished that Wyndham would make a change that drastically affects their usage.


----------



## ronparise (Jun 2, 2017)

chapjim said:


> This is maybe your smuggest, snarkiest post yet.



May be snarky. But he's right


----------



## MAKEITRIGHT (Jun 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> May be snarky. But he's right


He right? You got to be kidding me. Let say you bought A VIP ticket to a concert that you paid $1000 for and when you get there, they show you to your seat where the $100 tickets are, will you be happy? Honestly. VIPs didn't scam anything. How could anyone say that we scammed the system when we were lied to? Everyone knows that this is what the sale folks at the "updates" teach you over and over, each and everytime. We are the ones that got scammed.


----------



## breezez (Jun 2, 2017)

There might be a lot of VIP's on here.   But I also think there are a lot of non VIP owners.   I am one of them.

My mom and dad were VIP gold and always bragged about there investment, I being the cynical son would always dog them out on how much they had paid.   I would show the sites or blogs with people begging to get rid of there purchases.   My moms health got to the point traveling was not an easy thing any more.   Un knowing to me they paid money to a company to get them out of their timeshares.

One day googling how to stay cheap in hotels and playing the loyalty reward games I stumbled on TUG.   Then I read all about Wyndham on their section on how Wyndham works.    I wish now that this info was more accurately kept with all the rule changes including those with RCI.   I also read up on WorldMark and found I liked it too.

So I failed to follow a major rule and only buy the amount of points/credits I could use and bought to many.  Not knowing which would be better I purchased 406K Wyndham and 39K WorldMark with one of my contracts being a NHK account.  So for now I book Wyndham first and WorldMark last as it's easy to get rid of WM credits at least for now at cost.

What have I learned.... because of TUG, a bunch and I still keep learning.   I having taken around 15 trips since I started my venture about 3 years ago all to great places in nice resorts and opportunities to see things I probably never would have seen.  I've enjoyed quality time with family and was even able to get my mom and dad a stay at their favorite location Branson.

I don't feel wronged by Wyndham or hurt in anyway.  Somewhat disgusted at times on the process and way things are done, but I also kick myself that I discouraged my parents so bad years earlier that when they were ready to give their contracts up they paid people to take them when I could have taken them and kept the VIP status.

But life goes on...

Not being a VIP I visit TUG multiple times per day to see new postings and learn new stuff. The reason you see many VIPs on here probably would be the more your vested in something the more you track it.   If your a VIP chances are your $100K plus more invested than I am.  

I also agree you will see more VIPs at the annual owner meeting again because they are heavily invested.  My annual MF are more than I paid for my Wyndham.


----------



## breezez (Jun 2, 2017)

One last thing.   I do find it ironic funny when over all TUG Wyndham group says that programs like travelshare, VIP etc are not part of your contracts and can be lost or changed at any time.  And use this line in recommending people to buy resell, Then why then do you get upset if Wyndham changes something that effects your VIP program.  Seems like you knew they already could.


----------



## chapjim (Jun 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> May be snarky. But he's right



At its most simplistic, he's right except for "book a reservation."  "Book a reservation" is not the same as "rebook a reservation." 

But the point has never been the ability to do any of these things individually.  Rather it was the combination of those things.

I'm sticking with smug and snarky.


----------



## ronparise (Jun 2, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> He right? You got to be kidding me. Let say you bought A VIP ticket to a concert that you paid $1000 for and when you get there, they show you to your seat where the $100 tickets are, will you be happy? Honestly. VIPs didn't scam anything. How could anyone say that we scammed the system when we were lied to? Everyone knows that this is what the sale folks at the "updates" teach you over and over, each and everytime. We are the ones that got scammed.



I didn't buy a $500  ticket that promised me a $1000 seat

Perhaps scam is too loaded a word because it puts us with the real scammers  in the timeshare world. I'd call it a hustle. We knew it couldn't last and it didn't.


----------



## MAKEITRIGHT (Jun 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I didn't buy a $500  ticket that promised me a $1000 seat
> 
> Perhaps scam is too loaded a word because it puts us with the real scammers  in the timeshare world. I'd call it a hustle. We knew it couldn't last and it didn't.


No Wyndham sale personnel ever said that VIP is worth $175,000 but you can get for $87,500. We bought and paid full price for what was promised and shown over and over again. In fact, the price was too high, unlike buying it on eBay for $1. By changing the rules, I don't see why anyone would ever buy developer's points again. This will hurt Wyndham. Just because you can change, doesn't mean you should. What they should have done about the mega renters was to limit how many guest you can send. For example: If you have a million points, should should ne limited to 20 guests. Once you ran out, that's it. No more guest. No more buying guest confirmation. That would be fair and it was stop the mega renters from scooping up all the availablilties.


----------



## CO skier (Jun 2, 2017)

chapjim said:


> This is maybe your smuggest, snarkiest post yet.


It is not an original concept.  It has been posted before; and not by me.

Account review email [Accts. suspended]


----------



## CandyLancaster (Jun 2, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> I think the VIPs is the ones that got scammed. Wyndham told us we can cancel/rebook/upgrade. They taught us this in every "updates" over and over again. This is how they convinced VIPs to spent hundreds of thousands of dollars.


My thoughts exactly.  For them to say that it was never meant to be used this way is such bull.....after that they taught us this over and over and over.....every meeting...on and on and on....I really think you have to be VIP to understand the significance of what Wyndham has done to us.  Otherwise you just won't get it.  Non VIP members will believe everything Wyndham is saying about how all of this is good for the owners.  It's rediculous!


----------



## CandyLancaster (Jun 2, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> You said VIPs gamed the system and by using exactly what we were taught to do, we scammed this system. This is not right. The changes are not what was told to us that we can do. Like I said above, We bought the E car but now Wyndham said, "No, you can only get the A car even though you paid for the E car." VIPs are the ones that got scammed.


EXACTLY!!!!!!


----------



## CandyLancaster (Jun 2, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> No Wyndham sale personnel ever said that VIP is worth $175,000 but you can get for $87,500. We bought and paid full price for what was promised and shown over and over again. In fact, the price was too high, unlike buying it on eBay for $1. By changing the rules, I don't see why anyone would ever buy developer's points again. This will hurt Wyndham. Just because you can change, doesn't mean you should. What they should have done about the mega renters was to limit how many guest you can send. For example: If you have a million points, should should ne limited to 20 guests. Once you ran out, that's it. No more guest. No more buying guest confirmation. That would be fair and it was stop the mega renters from scooping up all the availablilties.


I wish you could represent us as a group!


----------



## ronparise (Jun 2, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> No Wyndham sale personnel ever said that VIP is worth $175,000 but you can get for $87,500. We bought and paid full price for what was promised and shown over and over again. In fact, the price was too high, unlike buying it on eBay for $1. By changing the rules, I don't see why anyone would ever buy developer's points again. This will hurt Wyndham. Just because you can change, doesn't mean you should. What they should have done about the mega renters was to limit how many guest you can send. For example: If you have a million points, should should ne limited to 20 guests. Once you ran out, that's it. No more guest. No more buying guest confirmation. That would be fair and it was stop the mega renters from scooping up all the availablilties.



It really dosent matter whether we think we are entitled to a discount on every reservation we make. The fact is that Wyndham dosent think we are and it's clear their goal wasn't a system free of renting. Their goal was a fair system so to be fair the new rules apply to us all

We can bitch and moan all we want. They aren't going to change. Or we could sue like bill spearman did after the last round of changes. That case was finally settled a few years ago. But none of the rules were changed

I'm not arguing for one thing or another. And I don't care what's right or wrong. I don't have it in me to fight Wyndham in this

 All I'm trying to say is we have a new set of rules and a new website. I don't like it. I had a nice ride over the last few years.  it's over now

Now It's time to figure just how this thing is going to work going forward and make the best of it


----------



## ronparise (Jun 2, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> No Wyndham sale personnel ever said that VIP is worth $175,000 but you can get for $87,500. We bought and paid full price for what was promised and shown over and over again.




You bought a $175000 ownership and expected it to be as good as a $3500000 ownership. You learned the trick and got away with it for a while. 

It's like buying a house with an un permitted apartment over the garage. The salesman tells you that the current owner has been renting it for $1000 a month, forever.  Then the week after you buy someone complains and the housing department shuts it down

That's what happened to us. The salesmen sold us an unpermitted benefit

 And now the party is over.


----------



## Cdn Gal (Jun 2, 2017)

I would help out with a demonstration at the Annual Meeting, with signs etc., however I don't know how things work in your country and I can't risk getting arrested!  lol My Disney trips mean too much for me!!   I don't want to get stopped at the border!    I'll bring the donuts and coffee!


----------



## MAKEITRIGHT (Jun 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> You bought a $175000 ownership and expected it to be as good as a $3500000 ownership. You learned the trick and got away with it for a while.
> 
> It's like buying a house with an un permitted apartment over the garage. The salesman tells you that the current owner has been renting it for $1000 a month, forever.  Then the week after you buy someone complains and the housing department shuts it down
> 
> ...


We didn't pay $175,000 and expect $350,000 of ownership. We only expect what was told to us. Nothing more. Nothing less. I don't know why you keep saying that we expect double for what we paid for. We just want to get what was told to us over and over again. That is why we spent so much money to get to. And once we are there, Wyndham say No! New rules! That's is a scam and unethical. This is people real hard earn money. I know you want the same level of playing field, But you spent $1 on eBay while VIPs spent hundreds of thousands of dollars. How is that even right? Who would do business in that manner? This will hurt Wyndham badly.


----------



## tschwa2 (Jun 2, 2017)

With timeshares you need to expect what is written in the contract, not what you are told in a sales presentation.  Even then many "perks" aren't guaranteed.  
The end of the cancel rebook upgrade isn't a change in rules.  It is a change in inventory management.  No one ever told you it was a "rule."  More importantly, nowhere is that "rule" written.  It was just the way the system worked at the time that you were sold on the upgrade.


----------



## chapjim (Jun 2, 2017)

CO skier said:


> It is not an original concept.  It has been posted before; and not by me.
> 
> Account review email [Accts. suspended]



I amend my post to "smug, snarky, and disingenuous."   Ron's post last November was speculative and related to the suspensions.  It had nothing to do with what has happened in the last couple of weeks.  He was not saying we could still do all the things we used to do.  

If, as Ron suggested in the same posting, you are one of the people doing the interrogating, I'll probably get an email and an audit from Wyndham.


----------



## MAKEITRIGHT (Jun 2, 2017)

tschwa2 said:


> With timeshares you need to expect what is written in the contract, not what you are told in a sales presentation.  Even then many "perks" aren't guaranteed.
> The end of the cancel rebook upgrade isn't a change in rules.  It is a change in inventory management.  No one ever told you it was a "rule."  More importantly, nowhere is that "rule" written.  It was just the way the system worked at the time that you were sold on the upgrade.


In business, no matter what kind of business, if your sale force tells your customers something over and over and over, you have to put a stop to that and honor what was promised or you must refund the customers if they want to return the product. Wyndham knew for years that this was what the sale force had been feeding the customers. They didn't put a stop to it. Now they want to change(whether rules or inventory management), they must give VIPs the opportunity to return the product or honor what was promised.


----------



## ronparise (Jun 2, 2017)

CO skier said:


> It is not an original concept.  It has been posted before; and not by me.
> 
> Account review email [Accts. suspended]


 
I thought I recognized that


----------



## Dill (Jun 2, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> What they should have done about the mega renters was to limit how many guest you can send. For example: If you have a million points, should should ne limited to 20 guests. Once you ran out, that's it. No more guest. No more buying guest confirmation. That would be fair and it was stop the mega renters from scooping up all the availablilties.



But then someone would be mad because they couldn't get 25 guest transactions. Someone will always want a little more. I have felt all along all you need to do is limit VIP benefits to point purchased from the developer. Not 9 million resale treated  as VIP because they are lumped in with 1 million developer points. Let transactions using full developer points be upgraded and transactions using any portion of resale point not eligible for upgrade. Points are just inventory. Manufacturers in all kinds industries especially food and drug industries are able to tightly control all levels of inventory. No reason WYN couldn't do the same.


----------



## ronparise (Jun 2, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> We didn't pay $175,000 and expect $350,000 of ownership. We only expect what was told to us. Nothing more. Nothing less. I don't know why you keep saying that we expect double for what we paid for. We just want to get what was told to us over and over again. That is why we spent so much money to get to. And once we are there, Wyndham say No! New rules! That's is a scam and unethical. This is people real hard earn money. I know you want the same level of playing field, But you spent $1 on eBay while VIPs spent hundreds of thousands of dollars. How is that even right? Who would do business in that manner? This will hurt Wyndham badly.



You seem not to know who you are talking to

No one here used the cancel rebook and upgrade trick more than I did And no one used the credit pool more aggressively than I did. No one here has more points than I did. Or more platinum accounts.  And I would bet that no one has been hurt by these new rules more than I have.  But I'm not fooling myself. I played the system; and I played it hard.  I knew wyndham was going to do something sooner or later. They had to. I just wish I could have had a few more good years before they did

I know exactly what Wyndham sold you and I know exactly how they did it. Like any good salesman they apppealed to either your fear or your greed. 
And I know which. 2 for 1 sounds pretty good to me too


----------



## Sandi Bo (Jun 2, 2017)

Dill said:


> But then someone would be mad because they couldn't get 25 guest transactions. Someone will always want a little more. I have felt all along all you need to do is limit VIP benefits to point purchased from the developer. Not 9 million resale treated  as VIP because they are lumped in with 1 million developer points. Let transactions using full developer points be upgraded and transactions using any portion of resale point not eligible for upgrade. Points are just inventory. Manufacturers in all kinds industries especially food and drug industries are able to tightly control all levels of inventory. No reason WYN couldn't do the same.


I will never understand why they did not implement something along those lines (only allow VIP benefits for VIP points).  They must secretly like the resale market.

As far as the suspensions/audits of last year - if much of what we're seeing in this slipslod thing they call our new owner website, is a result of discussion held as late as Nov 2016, it explains why it works so poorly and is fraught with bugs. This is not 7 years worth of work. 7 months, much more believable.


----------



## tschwa2 (Jun 2, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> In business, no matter what kind of business, if your sale force tells your customers something over and over and over, you have to put a stop to that and honor what was promised or you must refund the customers if they want to return the product. Wyndham knew for years that this was what the sale force had been feeding the customers. They didn't put a stop to it. Now they want to change(whether rules or inventory management), they must give VIPs the opportunity to return the product or honor what was promised.



That argument didn't work when Wyndham started charging for Guest Certificates (previously free and then $39 and then $99/$119) and when they took away unlimited guest certificates for the highest VIP levels.  It didn't work when they stopped allowing members to transfer points from one owner to another. Things change.  

In terms of oral promises, for years Wyndham sales told owners they would be their personal rep and would help them rent out the inventory.  I've heard many were told that they needed to convert to CWA because there MF wouldn't go up.  Many bought because they were told that it was easy to use excess points or CC charges to pay for MF;s and if they bought more today they wouldn't pay any more because they extra MF and loan would be covered by the extra points.   Most of these promises weren't true from day one.  At least double book, cancel, rebook, cancel, and upgrade was an actual process that actually worked.  You were sold on the way the process worked.


----------



## tschwa2 (Jun 2, 2017)

Sandi Bo said:


> I will never understand why they did not implement something along those lines (only allow VIP benefits for VIP points).  They must secretly like the resale market.



Those changes might still be in the future.


----------



## cayman01 (Jun 2, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> No Wyndham sale personnel ever said that VIP is worth $175,000 but you can get for $87,500. We bought and paid full price for what was promised and shown over and over again. In fact, the price was too high, unlike buying it on eBay for $1. By changing the rules, I don't see why anyone would ever buy developer's points again. This will hurt Wyndham. Just because you can change, doesn't mean you should. What they should have done about the mega renters was to limit how many guest you can send. For example: If you have a million points, should should ne limited to 20 guests. Once you ran out, that's it. No more guest. No more buying guest confirmation. That would be fair and it was stop the mega renters from scooping up all the availablilties.



That just might have been the simplest solution to all this megarenting stuff. You get 1 GC for very 100,000 points you own up to a million each year. Then you're done.


----------



## cayman01 (Jun 2, 2017)

Sandi Bo said:


> I will never understand why they did not implement something along those lines (only allow VIP benefits for VIP points).  They must secretly like the resale market.
> 
> As far as the suspensions/audits of last year - if much of what we're seeing in this slipslod thing they call our new owner website, is a result of discussion held as late as Nov 2016, it explains why it works so poorly and is fraught with bugs. This is not 7 years worth of work. 7 months, much more believable.



I think  the problem with VIP benefits going solely to developer points is that Wyndham's software cannot distinguish between the two in an owner account. Makes perfect sense to do that . Amazing that they cannot get that done.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Jun 2, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> In business, no matter what kind of business, if your sale force tells your customers something over and over and over, you have to put a stop to that and honor what was promised or you must refund the customers if they want to return the product. Wyndham knew for years that this was what the sale force had been feeding the customers. They didn't put a stop to it. Now they want to change(whether rules or inventory management), they must give VIPs the opportunity to return the product or honor what was promised.



Don't ever buy a timeshare from Vidanta in Mexico

Some TUG exchangers say : Grand Luxxe is the best TS in North America / Some who bought say their sales force has the best liars .
either way -
Vidanta  Member Services honors what is written / not what was "promised"

FABULOUS RESORTS


----------



## tschwa2 (Jun 2, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> That just might have been the simplest solution to all this megarenting stuff. You get 1 GC for very 100,000 points you own up to a million each year. Then you're done.


But if you are going on MakeitRights logic they can't do that either because sales have long encouraged owners that they can pay for their upgrades by getting enough points to rent out enough nights.  This was often coupled with the double book, cancel, rebook, cancel larger unit, upgrade technique to make money even faster.  Besides in many cases the Mega renters are bringing whoever profits from the guest certs -$10,000-20,000 or more in GC revenue each year.


----------



## cayman01 (Jun 2, 2017)

Calling cancel/rebook a scam is disengenuous at best. Wyndham has marketed this concept for YEARS. And I bet they are STILL doing it today in the breakouts. Yes, it is harder to do, but it can be done. Wyndham brought this all on themselves. 

 It is true that cancel/rebook was abused. But how could you NOT see that coming? And then you TEACH it to prospective buyers? Doctor heal thyself. It may never have been intended as Wyndham says, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that that was exactly what was going to happen. It was just a matter of time (probably about 38 seconds) before somebody figured out they could make some real cash.

 So now they are trying to put the breaks on a system that was out of control. Who really thinks it's a good idea to have FIVE years of points available in ONE year. I think All the big renters were doing this, not just Ron, and it was not going to end well if it continued. So Wyndham tried to do something about it and at this point they have done a poor job. Maybe Voyager works out after all the bugs get fixed and changes are made, but that's going to take awhile. The suspensions were a black eye on Wyndham. The new rules are a bit overboard in some instances and aimed at the wrong owners in others .They need to do some things right.

 One thing they could do for VIP owners is give them a one week head start on 10 month window. This would be a great benefit for VIP owners and would go a long way to smoothing things over. It would also help sales which are going to be sorely lacking ,I think ,over the next few months. Non VIP's reserve at 10 months. VIP's reserve at 10 months plus a week. Simple. Easy. A win for everybody involved.


----------



## cayman01 (Jun 2, 2017)

tschwa2 said:


> But if you are going on MakeitRights logic they can't do that either because sales have long encouraged owners that they can pay for their upgrades by getting enough points to rent out enough nights.  This was often coupled with the double book, cancel, rebook, cancel larger unit, upgrade technique to make money even faster.  Besides in many cases the Mega renters are bringing whoever profits from the guest certs -$10,000-20,000 or more in GC revenue each year.



Fair point, but you don't NEED to do that. You get a couple Mardi Gras reservations at Avenue Parise ...err.....Plaza and you can get $1500 for five nights and it costs you less than 100k in points. That goes a long way towards paying you MF's for the year. Which is the idea the sales weasels were/are pitching. They had no idea people would go out on eBay and add 20/50/100 million points to their VIP account and start a lucrative business. Or they didn't care.....


----------



## MAKEITRIGHT (Jun 3, 2017)

ronparise said:


> You seem not to know who you are talking to
> 
> No one here used the cancel rebook and upgrade trick more than I did And no one used the credit pool more aggressively than I did. No one here has more points than I did. Or more platinum accounts.  And I would bet that no one has been hurt by these new rules more than I have.  But I'm not fooling myself. I played the system; and I played it hard.  I knew wyndham was going to do something sooner or later. They had to. I just wish I could have had a few more good years before they did
> 
> ...


First, we gamed the system, then we scammed the system, then we hustled the system, and now we are greedy. It seems like there are Wyndham sale forces here trying to make it look like VIPs are at fault for the changes. Most VIPs, including myself, have 1 million points or slightly more. You have multiple accounts and you call us greedy. Really??? I used my points for family vacations, I gave it away for my sisters, nieces, and nephews if they ever need a place to go, and occasionally, I rent it out to help pay for MF. All this is exactly what we should do, and taught to do by Wyndham themselves. I agreed 100% that VIP benefits should only be applied to developer's points because we paid full price for them. And I think Wyndham should limit the guest confirmation to 20/millions and no selling of additional guest confirmations if Wyndham wants to carry out their plan to make more inventories available to all owners.


----------



## BellaWyn (Jun 3, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> *First, we gamed the system, then we scammed the system, then we hustled the system, and now we are greedy. *It seems like there are Wyndham sale forces here trying to make it look like VIPs are at fault for the changes. Most VIPs, including myself, have 1 million points or slightly more. You have multiple accounts and you call us greedy. Really??? I used my points for family vacations, I gave it away for my sisters, nieces, and nephews if they ever need a place to go, and occasionally, I rent it out to help pay for MF. All this is exactly what we should do, and taught to do by Wyndham themselves. I agreed 100% that VIP benefits should only be applied to developer's points because we paid full price for them. And I think Wyndham should limit the guest confirmation to 20/millions and no selling of additional guest confirmations if Wyndham wants to carry out their plan to make more inventories available to all owners.



Let's be clear that MOST VIP owners did nothing wrong and, in general, did not abuse the system intentially or otherwise.   They did what sales taught them was possible based on the system design at the time it was sold, which was the major reason VIP's were willing to drop the extra coin in the first place.

There are* a VERY SMALL handful of VIP owners that DID "game" "abuse" and "scam" the system OUT OF INTENT. * Those are the ones that would qualify as the most greedy in the process.  They found loopholes other VIP owners never considered.  It was money in their pockets.  The rental BUSINESS is extremely profitable with high margins.* However, I don't think ALL mega-renters and point managers fall into the "game" "scam" and "abuse" category*. Many work out of other owner accounts to assist high point owners that got over-sold by agressive sales with managing their accounts.  Was it profitable, yes.  Was it abusive, no.  Those owner accounts were not credit pooling max number of years out to take advantage of points in the current use year. 

The new changes that we are now seeing is designed to shut that down.  The bulk of VIP owners, like you, that are not in the rental "business" but used their VIP ownerships to maximize the economy of the initial capital investment are* experiencing the consequence of the actions of the FEW.  *

WYN accidently tripped over the methodologies that the abusers were using during the August  suspension of accounts because of the points accounting not balancing correctly and owners showing an inordinate amount of points available vs owned.  In order to dig themselves out of the "pile of poo" they fell into those owner instructed WYN, step by step, how the system got scammed by them.  The information is part of the tradeoff negotiation to exit the poo into the nice smelling rosebush.  Probably still a thorny place but at least it smells nicer.

It's understandable why VIP owners are going to be massively upset by the rule changes. Unfortunately, WYN makes the rules and can change them to suit to their best interest (not the owners).  It's like a high school team.  The team takes the hit for the bad seed and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Except quit the team or beat up the bad seed.  Highly likely most will just quit the team and be done with it.


----------



## Sandi Bo (Jun 3, 2017)

tschwa2 said:


> That may be true but the facebook group has a lot less renters and still seems to have a large number of VIP who are angry and were sold to the tune of $100,000 plus on the ability to get 1 million points and get 2 million points or more through the cancel/rebook/upgrade method.  At least 2/3's of the VIP's seemed to do this on a regular basis and are absolutely miffed because they felt they had been sold this right to use the system in that way.
> 
> Personally I would imagine many of these VIP's owned pre 2008 and saw those major changes with point transfers and guest certs so I am surprised that so many are so astonished that Wyndham would make a change that drastically affects their usage.


Sitting through the presentations, it is completely understandable how your average VIP owner would believe the cancel/rebook was a VIP benefit.  They sure "sold" it to us during presentations.  And when I said, what about the risk of losing it, only then did the sales person acknowledge they might. And then downplayed it as it was no concern whatsoever.  Same with rent your excess points to pay your maintenance, they'd even help us, give us a list of best places to rent, special occasions at our home resorts, etc.

They were selling off-use years contracts (as recently as about 6 months or so before the big use year alignment).

Last year, a salesperson in Nashville called me.  My 89 year old father with 1.4M developer points was at a presentation.  Agreement with Dad was anything WYN had to be approved by me. Salesperson had convinced Dad he needed to trade-up due to changes coming, just had to get my okay.

If WYN had any integrity they would have stopped that nonsense.  They never stop. Sorry, preaching to the choir, but I sure have empathy for the many irate and misinformed owners.


----------



## ronparise (Jun 3, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> That just might have been the simplest solution to all this megarenting stuff. You get 1 GC for very 100,000 points you own up to a million each year. Then you're done.



There are a lot of things that could be done if you think the megarenting was the target of all this... Im convinced it wasnt. Renting is not the issue. No one cares who is sleeping in the beds, as long as the fees are paid and as long as the reservation process is fair.  ie, every owner has an equal chance at every reservation. 

To be sure the megarenters have identified certain loopholes and have exploited them for profit.  But getting rid of megarenters, dosent close the loopholes... As we read here, there are lots of regular VIP owners that took advantage of the cancel/rebook and upgrade trick too, and were able to get far more vacations out of their ownership than they should be able to

However closing the loopholes makes the system more fair. We all have an equal shot at the reservations, and we all pay a fair price for the vacations. And the VIP discount returns to its original purpose, ie to fill up the less popular resorts and to give the VIP owners a kiss on the cheek.  The bonus is that many of the mega renters are making plans to close up shop


----------



## Braindead (Jun 3, 2017)

ronparise said:


> The bonus is that many of the mega renters are making plans to close up shop


Are you serious or snowballing ?
I agreed with you post rule changes. Renters would still focus on holidays and special events. Renting would be less lucrative but most would adapt and stay in business


----------



## ronparise (Jun 3, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> I think  the problem with VIP benefits going solely to developer points is that Wyndham's software cannot distinguish between the two in an owner account. Makes perfect sense to do that . Amazing that they cannot get that done.



Wyndham can distinguish between resale and developer contracts . They make mistakes once in a while but generally they are coded differently

perhaps they cant see the difference in points but that would be a simple matter to deal with going forward.  The transfer department could just not add resale contracts to a VIP account. so if I own 2 million developer purchases points in one account and I buy something off ebay, that new purchase goes into a new account.  

That way the owners that have blended accounts now, get to keep them. but there wont be any more created

Another approach would be the 10 contract limit that was talked about recently.  Limit an account to 10 contracts and you limit the number of resale points that can piggy-back on a VIP ownership


none of that will be needed now that Wyndham has put an end to the credit pool (that I used to my advantage) and the cancel/rebook/upgrade trick (that I also used) 

what we are forgetting here and Wyndham didnt) is that that the cancel/rebook/upgrade trick and the ability to get deep discounts on nearly every reservation, is inherently unfair. The megarenters based their business model on that unfairness, but as we are learning here some regular VIP owners did pretty much the same thing (took advantage of the loopholes to get more vacations than they are entitled to).  Wyndhams stated goal in all this is to make the system fair... That its going to get rid of the mega renters is a bonus for them


----------



## ronparise (Jun 3, 2017)

BellaWyn said:


> quit the team or beat up the bad seed.  Highly likely most will just quit the team and be done with it.



Ive been pretty well beat up by this thing already.  But beating me up or blaming the "bad seed" or blaming the sales staff for whats happening here is not going to change a thing.  Wyndham is returning the VIP program to its original design and the new rules apply equally to all owners

By the way, what I taught Wyndham during my period of suspension (which hasnt ended, by the way) is how I used the credit pool, But that isnt what upset them. What upset them was something else all together.  

Wyndham has been working on Voyager for a long time. someone posted evidence of that recently from the records of the Bill Spearman lawsuit,  In 2009 it was clear wyndham knew abouut the cancel/rebook trick and intended to do something about it with Voyager.


----------



## ronparise (Jun 3, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Are you serious or snowballing ?
> I agreed with you post rule changes. Renters would still focus on holidays and special events. Renting would be less lucrative but most would adapt and stay in business



That post was more speculation than not. Since that post I have talked to a number of points managers and megarenters. and I have had some experience with a few recent rentals, (made in clients accounts).   I made  reservations  "to order" for some old customers of mine. I set my price at $7/1000 points plus $120 to cover the guest fee and reservation transaction.  (neither of my guests were happy because they were used to paying a whole lot less)  but they agreed to pay, because the final price was still reasonable and competitive... so we are  making $1/1000 points. Do the math and you will see I need 100 million points to make $100,000 a year (and Ill split that with the owner of the account).. So a lot more work for a lot less money. 

 I would still say that renting will continue and that it will be less lucrative, and that many will adapt but many will also just close up shop.  But heres my big prediction, which is just more speculation

I think renting will evolve. There will be folks that come into this with no idea just how lucrative working with wyndham used to be, or what we did to make our money. (no different than when I came in, right after the 2009 rule changes)  They will see opportunity that I dont see and they will figure out how to work within the new rules and still make a buck or two...and then 10 years from now, wyndham will make another set of new rules...and life goes on


----------



## ronparise (Jun 3, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> Fair point, but you don't NEED to do that. You get a couple Mardi Gras reservations at Avenue Parise ...err.....Plaza and you can get $1500 for five nights and it costs you less than 100k in points. That goes a long way towards paying you MF's for the year. Which is the idea the sales weasels were/are pitching. They had no idea people would go out on eBay and add 20/50/100 million points to their VIP account and start a lucrative business. Or they didn't care.....




The formula was even better than that


----------



## tschwa2 (Jun 3, 2017)

Sandi Bo said:


> .
> 
> If WYN had any integrity they would have stopped that nonsense.  They never stop. Sorry, preaching to the choir, but I sure have empathy for the many irate and misinformed owners.


I completely have empathy too and am not suggesting that using cancel /rebook was in anyway scamming the system.  They were using it as they were taught.  My statements are more toward the legal aspect or Wyndhams responsibility to take back any contract sold in the last 5 years giving a full refund because the buyer was told (even multiple times) about how cancel/rebook could be used to get larger units for less points and more stays per year.  It isn't going to happen out of good will on Wyndham's part and I don't see a lawsuit benefiting anyone other than the lawyers and then Wyndham will pass any $$$ they had to pay out to their lawyers and any settlement onto the owners by increasing program fees.  

Certainly if you are unhappy, don't buy anymore even if they tell you that more points will fix the problems you are having.  If you are unhappy go to sales meeting and complain if that makes you feel better or skip them all together (which I would think would make your vacations better).  Tell your friends not to buy direct from Wyndham (or even resale if you want) because they change benefits- TUGgers have been saying that for years.  Try your best to learn how best to use the system with the changes but always be prepared for more changes down the way.


----------



## Braindead (Jun 3, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Wyndham can distinguish between resale and developer contracts . They make mistakes once in a while but generally they are coded differently
> 
> perhaps they cant see the difference in points but that would be a simple matter to deal with going forward.  The transfer department could just not add resale contracts to a VIP account. so if I own 2 million developer purchases points in one account and I buy something off ebay, that new purchase goes into a new account.
> 
> ...


I think the 10 contract max per membership would of done more damage to the mega renter they were targeting.

With little to no backlash


----------



## chapjim (Jun 3, 2017)

Braindead said:


> I think the 10 contract max per membership would of done more damage to the mega renter they were targeting.
> 
> With little to no backlash



Well, I don't know about that.  I have 4.5 million points and thirteen contracts but six of the contracts are conversions or PICs, and a couple more are in the 100K to 200K range.  If I had known there was a ten contract limit, I would have done things differently.  Even if they did it now, I could unload the smaller contracts and tack nine big points contracts on to the one Pres Reserve contract.

That might not have taken me to megarenter status but it certainly would not have kept me from doing what I wanted to do.


----------



## ronparise (Jun 3, 2017)

MAKEITRIGHT said:


> First, we gamed the system, then we scammed the system, then we hustled the system, and now we are greedy. It seems like there are Wyndham sale forces here trying to make it look like VIPs are at fault for the changes. Most VIPs, including myself, have 1 million points or slightly more. You have multiple accounts and you call us greedy. Really??? I used my points for family vacations, I gave it away for my sisters, nieces, and nephews if they ever need a place to go, and occasionally, I rent it out to help pay for MF. All this is exactly what we should do, and taught to do by Wyndham themselves. I agreed 100% that VIP benefits should only be applied to developer's points because we paid full price for them. And I think Wyndham should limit the guest confirmation to 20/millions and no selling of additional guest confirmations if Wyndham wants to carry out their plan to make more inventories available to all owners.




if you are suggesting I sell for wyndham, thats laughable.  

I have been a salesman all my life (actually only 60 years) (paper boy, advertising, stock broker, insurance and real estate) and Im just telling you from my experience, salesmen sell to your fear or greed or need.  Im suggesting that that the lure of 50% discounts on every reservation was too much for many to resist. But thats all it was...bait. What you actually bought didnt include that promise or guarantee.(read your contract and the disclosures, found in the owners directory)   I think its wonderful that you give away discounted vacation accommodations, but thats no different than me charging rent for them. Either way a non owner is in a unit that some would say, should go to an owner, willing to pay full price. and either way we are violating the rule that prohibits "manipulation of the program rules to gain an unfair advantage"

what you are suggesting is a set of rules to control renting. Im suggesting that thats not, nor should it be wyndhams goal. What they are working towards is a fair reservations system that we cant manipulate


----------



## ronparise (Jun 3, 2017)

Braindead said:


> I think the 10 contract max per membership would of done more damage to the mega renter they were targeting.
> 
> With little to no backlash



I dont think so  like chapjim says  it would be easy to work  around, for most owners. 

and it would have no affect on the points managers, Most of their suppliers are small platinum owners with all developer purchased points


----------

