# A Good Article Indicating That Las Vegas May Have Priced Itself Too High.



## ricoba (Dec 27, 2008)

I know some here, especially DougP, believe that Vegas has out priced itself and forgotten the little guy, and thus is into its current fix.  Here is an interesting article from the Los Angeles Times, supporting this view.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 28, 2008)

The problem with Vegas is they're all lemmings following each other over the cliff's edge. IMHO, If Vegas had remaind divirsified, it would have done better. Vegas quit providing something for everyone. Instead, they all went after the high end market. Now, they're all paying the price.


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## ricoba (Dec 28, 2008)

dougp26364 said:


> The problem with Vegas is they're all lemmings following each other over the cliff's edge. IMHO, If Vegas had remaind divirsified, it would have done better. Vegas quit providing something for everyone. Instead, they all went after the high end market. Now, they're all paying the price.



I tend to agree.  That's why we like Downtown and Off Strip locations, they still cater to the low roller crowd.


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## california-bighorn (Dec 28, 2008)

*Downfall of Vegas*

I think they go after the "high rollers" because so many of the common folks (at least in California) are staying closer to home and playing at the Indian Casinos.
It wouldn't bother me if Vegas folded.  We were there last year, through a RCI exchange, and have no desire to ever return.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 28, 2008)

Since I own 4 timeshares there, it'd bug the heck out of me. 

MGM recently sold Treasure Island to Phil Ruffin. Mr. Ruffin is the former owner of The New Frontier. There's still the Saraha and the Strat has plans for expansion. Imperial Palace and the Riveria haven't been upscaled yet and Circus Circus, along with Excalibur are still in the family market. 

Vegas only needs to return to the average tourist with less expensive alternatives for shopping, dining and shows and they'll get back to business IF they offer better odds than can be found the local casino's that are within driving distance of almost everyone in America. 

We use to be able to find full pay video poker machines on the strip and would play them for a couple of hours per day. Over the last few years, those machines did a Jimmy Hoffa act and haven't been seen since. The average tourist gambler might not understand the odds but, they do understand when $200 is gone in less than 10 minutes. You do that to people long enough they'll quit taking their chances because they KNOW they can't win. Vegas forgot to give the gambler the illusion that he had a chance to win while, in the long run, he never had a chance. Over the last couple of years Vegas assumed that the little guy, the one that had to stretch his dollar, wouldn't mind if Vegas took his money just a little faster with each passing year. Automatic shuffle machines that increase the number of hands dealt from 40 to 120 hands/hours, thus tripling the effect of how fast you lose your money. Changes in rules that gave the house an even larger edge, again speeding up the losing process. Decreasing the odds you can place on a Craps table, again speeding up the process. Double zero roulette tables instead of single zero tables and short pay video poker machines that took you money like a reverse ATM have chased the average gambler from the casino's.

Vegas was never set up to make money off restaurants, night clubs and shopping. Those were all excuses to get you into the casino so you'd drop a couple hundred over a few hours before/after you ate that $5.99 prime rib dinner. People did just that and had fun doing it. Just enough people would brag about how long they played, the comps they recieved or how much they had "won" one day that it kept not only them coming back but attracted their friends as well. 

We went to Vegas because the odds were better than the local casino and Vegas offered us more. Now, Vegas offers us high dollar restaurants ($20 for a bean burrito? You've GOT to be kidding me), high priced shows (how many Cirque or Cirque type show can you offer in just over a mile?) and shopping malls where I can't afford a pair of socks. Where's the fun in that?


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## california-bighorn (Dec 28, 2008)

Doug
You summed it up very well.


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## AwayWeGo (Dec 28, 2008)

*Fighting Back.*

Click here for Cheapo Vegas Dot Com*.* 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Dori (Dec 28, 2008)

I totally agree!  We have been going to LV for the past six years.  When we first started going there, many of the casinos tended to cater to the low-to-mid rollers.  (Of course, we had no inkling how the "whales" were wined and dined).  Low-cost lodging, free or 2-for-1 buffets, things like that were enticing to lure us in.  Now, however, with the new posh casinos and over-priced restaurants, it is certainly not the LV of yore.

Dori


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## Fern Modena (Dec 28, 2008)

I agree with this, too.  I wonder how long "Joe and Jane Tourist" are going to continue to come to Vegas with the current cost of things.  Actually, many of them are *not* coming.  Tourism was off about 14% last month.  You'd think the casinos would catch on.  But I guess they have to charge high prices with all the glamor they have these days.  

Personally, there is a lot of Vegas besides "The Strip."  I went to the Bellagio Conservatory to see the Christmas display.  Cost?  Nada.  I did that about a month ago and that is the last time I've been down there.  I was at Sunset Station perhaps three weeks ago, and I'm going to South Point for buffet lunch (buy one, get one) and bingo tomorrow.

There are many things you can do without spending a lot of money.  Just one example:  are you aware that there is a bird sanctuary that you can go to in Henderson?  Check out Las Vegas 4 Locals to get more ideas of free and reasonably priced things to do.

If you come to Vegas, rent a car, and get out there and explore!

Fern


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## AwayWeGo (Dec 28, 2008)

*Top 10 Las Vegas Values.*

Don't forget Anthony Curtis's _Top 10 Las Vegas Values_ (updated monthly). 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## UWSurfer (Dec 28, 2008)

AwayWeGo said:


> Click here for Cheapo Vegas Dot Com*.*
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



Note Alan...some of the info in it is not quite up to date.  One that jumped out at me was under Cheap Eats the "Klondike" spagetti dinner.  Admittedly they got the review right...problem is the Klondike has been gone for several years.  I do recall getting a $2 spagetti dinner there maybe 15 years ago where I swear the cigarette ash was used as seasoning.  YUK.   But it was cheap!


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## DaveNV (Dec 29, 2008)

Fern Modena said:


> If you come to Vegas, rent a car, and get out there and explore!
> 
> Fern




I think that's a great idea, and not nearly enough people do it.  They want to be catered to, stay right on the Strip, and not have to pay much for the experience.  Those are the folks who finish their vacations and leave town, having no idea what a vibrant and exciting city Las Vegas is for those who want to find out.   And they have no idea how much city there is that has nothing to do with the Strip, gambling, or stage shows.

The same thing happens with many tourists in Hawaii - they never venture away from the tourist haunts, so never truly experience what "real" Hawaii is all about.  Kind of a shame, I think.

Dave


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## dougp26364 (Dec 29, 2008)

When you come to a party town to party, the last thing you want to do is drive a car. The average Vegas tourist I knew would hit town for 3 or 4 nights and only use the hotel room to shower and change cloths. Sleep was often considered an option not worth the time. 

The casino's don't want their guests to have to drive. They want the room to be within crawling distance of the casino floor so the tourist can spend every last ounce of energy gambling, drinking, dancing and having fun before crawling back to the room for a shower, change of clothes and maybe a couple hours sleep before coming back down on the elevator for more action.

Sure having a car is great for those of us that stay in timeshares. I'd venture to say that timeshare users aren't the typical Vegas tourist. When I tell people we spend 7 nights in Vegas, they look stunned and ask us how we can keep going for so long. They have no concept of Vegas as a place to relax. Vegas was built as a place to party and driving shouldn't be on the agenda when you're in a party town.


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## falmouth3 (Dec 29, 2008)

We were in Las Vegas last year.  I found plenty of penny slots on the strip, but when we went to an off-strip casino for a show, I found the penny slots were paying off quite well (relatively speaking).  And we enjoyed a reasonably priced show.  I prefer to stay on the strip for the access to the free entertainment, but for gambling in my price range, I like off-strip the best.

Sue


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## ricoba (Dec 29, 2008)

It's very seldom anymore, that we spend any time at all on the Strip.  

Having been driving to Vegas for over a decade, we know our way around town fairly well, and enjoy experiencing Vegas more like locals.

Thousands of Southern Californians drive to Vegas, yet I just wonder if they ever go anywhere besides the Strip?


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## Fern Modena (Dec 29, 2008)

I'd bet most of them don't.  I was at the Bellagio Café for lunch with the Red Hat Ladies a few months ago.  Some younger women came up to us and commented on how nice we looked.  They then asked where we lived.  When we said, "Here," they were astonished.  I wonder if they thought we meant the hotel.  Cause, after all, we must either live on The Strip or out in the desert somewhere.  At least that is what many people believe.  They don't realize that we have kids, and schools, and grocery stores, and churches and homes, etc., cause they've never seen them.  

Fern



ricoba said:


> Thousands of Southern Californians drive to Vegas, yet I just wonder if they ever go anywhere besides the Strip?


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## JoAnn (Dec 29, 2008)

We bought at the JC in '83 because our son lived out there (in Henderson) and would go out at least a couple of times a year.  And we explored: Valley of Fire; Red Rock Canyon; Death Valley (my favorite); Laughlin; Hoover Dam; ghost towns somewhere; Zion, or just drive around the lake.  

Friends would wonder why I liked the desert..and 'there is nothing there', or 'geez, it's expensive in Vegas.  Not when we went.  We would go to The Rainbow in Henderson and and a NY strip steak, salad & huge baked potato for $3.99 (it went up to as high as $5.99), or some other casino restaurant and eat cheap.  

Our DD went out a couple of years ago with her SO and they were shocked at hotel prices, until Mom said..."Hotel...what's wrong with our TS?"  When they returned they complained about no more cheap meals...early morning special.  That's too bad, 'cause we used to love finding those places.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 29, 2008)

There is a difference in my mind between a timeshare Vegas tourist and the average Vegas tourist. I'd like to think that those of us that stay in timeshares rent cars and get off the strip more frequently than those that stay in the hotel/casino's. Evidence of this might be that you have to call a cab from a timeshare where as cabs are generally lined up at the hotel/casino's waiting on customers in the cab line. 

We've always gone to Vegas to relax, take in the sites off strip but enjoy the amenities on the strip as well. Our last couple of trips we've probably been off strip more so than on strip, just because the prices on strip have become ridiculous. We've been driving down to South Point to gamble because South Point has decent odds, or did when we were last there. 

But the Vegas machine wasn't built to cater to us timeshare owners. In fact, if they had to rely on timeshare owners, the strip would go back to desert PDQ. The strip was built to party. It was built to drink, smoke, gamble and all the other adult vices one might think of. That tourist is looking to hit it hard for a short period of time, then go home at tell stories about the amount of "free" liquor they drank, how many hours they gambled, how few hours they slept, how cheap the food was, how good the comps were and how much money they think they won. Going home and talking about driving 2 miles south of the action for an inxpensive prime rib dinner isn't on the agenda.


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## geoffb (Dec 29, 2008)

dougp26364 said:
			
		

> Imperial Palace and the Riveria haven't been upscaled yet and Circus Circus, along with Excalibur are still in the family market.



MGM-Mirage would be wise to clean up Circus-Circus and keep it priced for budget travel. The place looks awful right now.


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## ricoba (Dec 29, 2008)

geoffb said:


> MGM-Mirage would be wise to clean up Circus-Circus and keep it priced for budget travel. The place looks awful right now.



It's looked pretty bad for quite awhile!


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## AwayWeGo (Dec 29, 2008)

*How Bad Is It ?*




ricoba said:


> It's looked pretty bad for quite awhile!


Is Circus Circus ready for demolition via implosion ? 

That's what happened to the New Frontier shortly after were there as part of a timeshare-tour freebie deal.  And the New Frontier wasn't even all that bad -- well, bad maybe but not awful. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## ricoba (Dec 29, 2008)

Alan, I am not aware of any current plans to demolish or implode Circus Circus.

My assumption is that since it's an old property in which the mortgage has probably been paid long ago, it's just a cash cow for MGM.  

In this current market, I am sure MGM is just sitting still letting some of the older properties continue to bring in the cash.  Though they just did sell Treasure Island to Phil Ruffin, who was the guy who made a mint selling the New Frontier just prior to the market collapse.


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## UWSurfer (Dec 30, 2008)

I don't think MGM knows what to do with Circus Circus so it sits in limbo at the budget end of their accomodations line.   What is truely amazing about CC is how much land it occupies.  With the strip moving up the blvd, the HGVC and now the Fountain Blue (I know I'm mis-spelling it) soon, CC and Rivera seem to be holding out & on with high potential in the future.

It may be another 10 or 20 years before anything happens but it's well situated for the next "trend" that sweeps vegas in development approaches.

Frankly, while I know the half hearted approaches in the past haven't really worked, I'd think you could do alot with a full blown Six Flags on the property which presently makes up the RV park portion and 2 story condo's.    Then update or replace the current CC with a Six Flags resort and casino, complete with maybe a Chucky Cheese with strippers?   

(Sorry I'm tired and a little punchy tonight.  That was either genius at work or the dumbest idea I've had in awhile.)


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## dougp26364 (Dec 30, 2008)

geoffb said:


> MGM-Mirage would be wise to clean up Circus-Circus and keep it priced for budget travel. The place looks awful right now.



We were in there last March. I have to say, I believe MGM/Mirage has cleaned it up. It wasn't nearly as nasty as it had been several years ago when we went in. Tacky yes but, in Vegas, tacky use to be the norm.


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## pfaff (Jan 1, 2009)

Not only did Vegas forget about the little guy... they forgot keeping the little guy drunk makes him gamble more. My family and I went in December and it was impossible to get our usual buzz from comped drinks. The waitresses at the Venetian Sports books requested a drink coupon each time they passed by or else pay for the drink. You get one coupon per bet. I was on a slot machine for an hour at the Tropicana and not once did someone pass by with drinks, same thing happened at the Palms. At Harrah's my cousin was betting the minimum on video poker at the bar and the bartender refused to give her a free drink unless she put in $20 in the machine cause she was up 108 credits starting from a $5.00 bet. We could not find a place to enjoy our gambling experience so we would leave sober and not spend as much. 

We all had the general feeling that Vegas was getting stingy on us. Hey Vegas... last I remember a drunk gambler favors the casino's odds and revenue!


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## dougp26364 (Jan 1, 2009)

pfaff said:


> Not only did Vegas forget about the little guy... they forgot keeping the little guy drunk makes him gamble more. My family and I went in December and it was impossible to get our usual buzz from comped drinks. The waitresses at the Venetian Sports books requested a drink coupon each time they passed by or else pay for the drink. You get one coupon per bet. I was on a slot machine for an hour at the Tropicana and not once did someone pass by with drinks, same thing happened at the Palms. At Harrah's my cousin was betting the minimum on video poker at the bar and the bartender refused to give her a free drink unless she put in $20 in the machine cause she was up 108 credits starting from a $5.00 bet. We could not find a place to enjoy our gambling experience so we would leave sober and not spend as much.
> 
> We all had the general feeling that Vegas was getting stingy on us. Hey Vegas... last I remember a drunk gambler favors the casino's odds and revenue!



Yea, but a drunk gambler also sues the casino. There's been a couple of such law suits lately but I'm not certain how the plantiff came out on the deal. 

At any rate, I'd never pay for a drink provided by one of the cocktail waitresses. Being a light weight when it comes to alcohol, I can easily tell when a drink has been watered down. Unless they serve beer by the bottle you're not getting a lot of alcohol in those "free" drinks. 

Still, the cocktail waitress seems to be going the way of the change girls. You just don't see them as much anymore. It use to be that I could get 3 or 4 drinks in an hour. Now, if I'm on the strip I'm lucky if I ever see a cocktail waitress. Of course, with the odds the way they are, the most I'm willing to gamble is maybe $10 in a nickel video poker machine. I guess low end gamblers either don't deserve drinks or don't tip very well. 

Now it's been a different story down at South Point. We'll sit down at the nickel machines and see the waitress several times before the machine eats our $10 or $20 bill. Not that we drink a lot but it's always good to at least know the option is there. It makes me feel as if South Point really does want my business more than the strip casino's that just want my money.


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## davidvel (Jan 2, 2009)

dougp26364 said:


> Yea, but a drunk gambler also sues the casino. There's been a couple of such law suits lately but I'm not certain how the plantiff came out on the deal.


No gambler has ever been successful in this regard in Nevada. 

Tahoe must be different. I was there 2 weeks ago, and you could have had 6 drinks an hour if you wanted them...


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## Fern Modena (Jan 2, 2009)

South Point *is* different.  Its my preferred casino.  Michael Gaughan is a single casino owner, by choice.  He knows his employees and has a good feel for who his customers are.  He's good to both of them.  I recently had occasion to talk to a Captain who had worked for Michael Gaughan for 22 years, and he said that even in these times Mr. Gaughan hadn't laid anybody off.  

I was at the casino three days ago.  It was crowded more than usual because it was the holiday season.  The buffet line had perhaps a hundred people ahead of me, but we were let in about 12 minutes later.  When gambling we were asked if we wanted a drink on an average of every 15 or 20 minutes.

Fern



dougp26364 said:


> Now it's been a different story down at South Point. We'll sit down at the nickel machines and see the waitress several times before the machine eats our $10 or $20 bill. Not that we drink a lot but it's always good to at least know the option is there. It makes me feel as if South Point really does want my business more than the strip casino's that just want my money.


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## dougp26364 (Jan 2, 2009)

Fern Modena said:


> South Point *is* different.  Its my preferred casino.  Michael Gaughan is a single casino owner, by choice.  He knows his employees and has a good feel for who his customers are.  He's good to both of them.  I recently had occasion to talk to a Captain who had worked for Michael Gaughan for 22 years, and he said that even in these times Mr. Gaughan hadn't laid anybody off.
> 
> I was at the casino three days ago.  It was crowded more than usual because it was the holiday season.  The buffet line had perhaps a hundred people ahead of me, but we were let in about 12 minutes later.  When gambling we were asked if we wanted a drink on an average of every 15 or 20 minutes.
> 
> Fern




Which is why we have been taking the drive down to South Point rather than gambling in the strip casino's when we hit Vegas. But, I wouldn't consider us the typical Vegas tourist. 

I really like South Point. It still offers good odds to us low roller gambler. It's a clean casino with a light atmosphere compared to the dark, low ceiling atmosphere of many of the downtown casino's and, it offers a variety of activities and restaurants at different price points. Basically it's our home casino when we're in Vegas. We still don't gamble on anything more than the nickel machines but, when we're going to toss a couple of $20's in a machine, we'll actually drive to South Point rather than walk across the street to Planet Hollywood. In the end, South Point wins in that we rarely walk away with any money. At the nickel level we're paying for the entertainment rather than gambling. However I'm going to go someplace where my money will get me a little more time on the machine and has reasonably priced meal offerings for when we're finished.

I guess it's a good thing for South Point that all the strip casino's have forgotten the mid level and low level gamblers that gave them their start in the first place. We use to spend almost all our time in the strip casino's gambling but now rarely spend any money in them. 

Case in point would be the Monte Carlo and NYNY. Both had a couple of banks of full pay JOB VP at the quarter level. We use to walk into those casino's with $100 each and sit down and play. While we usually didn't lose all our money, the casino's always got some of it in the end. We'd then stick around and eat lunch or dinner and maybe do a little shopping. With the Monte Carlo I'd always save a few quarters to put in the car carousels (they had the Z3 Beamers on them) and drop them in for the fun of it. 

Now, we barely set foot in either casino. There's just nothing there for us anymore. About the only time we even venture in is if we're showing someone around. Even then no money changes hands anymore. When NYNY took out it's centeral park theme for it's casino, it took it down another notch for me. I use to enjoy having breakfast at Il Fonaio sitting on the patio by the little stream that was next to it. NYNY even took the stream out so it's nothing special to me anymore. NYNY isn't even a thought when we're thinking about where to go from Breakfast.

For the most part, these last two years we haven't shopped, gambled or dined on the strip. At least not like we use to. I'll even go off strip just to get a Starbucks coffee as the Starbucks in the casino's charge considerably more for the same product.


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## JeffW (Jan 2, 2009)

I don't think I ever ate at that NYNY restaurant, though I did eat a few times at one in Caesar's Forum shops, which actually had an outside balcony which overlooked the strip.  (It was a pastry shop with NY roots).  I think I heard ~2 years ago it closed.  It was ALL the way at the end of the Forum shops, either on the 2nd or 3rd floor, so I'm guessing maybe location (lack of good one !) did it in.

I haven't been to NYNY since maybe the year after it opened. 

Jeff


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## pfaff (Jan 2, 2009)

I never knew nickle poker machines existed. I know making nickle bets wont allow me to win big but it would definitely give me a reason to visit South Point. You gave me the inspiration to join their email list for their promotions. 

I remember going to Vegas a few months after 9/11. Tourism seemed to have stopped all of a sudden and prices were very low. People were afraid to fly and most people that we met there had all driven. Airfare was as affordable as it is now. Vegas, aka the strip, adjusted accordingly to its economic downturn. However, now it seems the "Mega-Resorts" have over hyped themselves into believing they shouldn't lower their prices or possibly so over developed that it would be financially impossible for them to do so.


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## dougp26364 (Jan 2, 2009)

pfaff said:


> I never knew nickle poker machines existed. I know making nickle bets wont allow me to win big but it would definitely give me a reason to visit South Point. You gave me the inspiration to join their email list for their promotions.
> 
> I remember going to Vegas a few months after 9/11. Tourism seemed to have stopped all of a sudden and prices were very low. People were afraid to fly and most people that we met there had all driven. Airfare was as affordable as it is now. Vegas, aka the strip, adjusted accordingly to its economic downturn. However, now it seems the "Mega-Resorts" have over hyped themselves into believing they shouldn't lower their prices or possibly so over developed that it would be financially impossible for them to do so.



You can usually find nickle VP machines in most casino's. The pay table will make you cringe but, at that level could you really consider it gambling? South Pointe still has a better pay table on it's nickle VP than you'll find on the strip.


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