# Governing documents for Trust?



## GregT (Jul 17, 2013)

All,

Does anyone have the governing documents for the Trust in electronic format?  I have the Exchange governing documents, but need Trust-specific documents.

I do have the following documents:

1) MVCD Exchange Procedures (from June 2010)
2) MVCD Exchange Program Disclosure Guide (from June 2010) 

The purpose here is to better understand resale purchases of Trust Points.

I know there are risks associated with resales purchases of Trust Points --_ to access the Exchange Inventory._

I'm trying to diligence if there are risks associated with resale purchases of Trust Points -- _to access the Trust Inventory_.

Fundamentally, I can't afford any risk to being able to book days in the Trust exactly 13 months out -- and I can't tell from my documents if a resale purchase jeopardizes that.   I wouldn't need my Trust Points to ever access the Exchange Inventory, I have plenty of Legacy Points for that, so I can accept that risk.

Any assistance would be appreciated.  Thank you!

Best,

Greg


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## StevenTing (Jul 17, 2013)

I might have them on CD.  Gotta go digging through the safe first.  


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## StevenTing (Jul 17, 2013)

I've got the Public Offering Statement.  Does that help?

If so, you can download it from my Dropbox.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/62hqbyq5baanocx/fokkqWUdGx

The documents in this folder are what came on the CD when I purchased.  Some of the stuff is dated.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 17, 2013)

Greg,

I think the limitations of resale trust points is written in to the MVCD Exchange Procedures document that you already have. The limitation of trust points would be that the exchange company restricts access of the resale points to MVC Exchange Inventory. So that is why I think the Exchange Procedures is really the best source for the information you are looking for. I am not sure that the Public Offering Statement has anything written in to it specifically indicating the same or additional restrictions. The version that I have is not keyword searchable.


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## StevenTing (Jul 17, 2013)

Greg I'm looking through the POS document I have and Page 51/277 indicates that in includes the Trust Owners Association Articles of Incorporation and Trust Owners Association By-Laws.

Also check out Page 266/277.  There is a section of "Effect of Transfer of Member's Interest".  That might be what you're looking for but it's hard to understand with my 3 year old climbing over me.


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## GregT (Jul 17, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> Greg,
> *The limitation of trust points would be that the exchange company restricts access of the resale points to MVC Exchange Inventory. *So that is why I think the Exchange Procedures is really the best source for the information you are looking for. I am not sure that the Public Offering Statement has anything written in to it specifically indicating the same or additional restrictions. The version that I have is not keyword searchable.



I agree there is definitely a concern about access to the Exchange -- but what about access to the Trust itself -- could it be restricted??    I understand that access to the Exchange can be restricted, but the week I need is in the Trust -- and will likely never make it to the Exchange, or I could simply use legacy points.   Any and all perspective is appreciated!

Steven and Dioxide, thank you both for your offers/attempts to get me the legal documents.  I will check the drop-box from Steven (and hope the 20MB email comes from Dioxide!)

Thank you both!

Best,

Greg


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## GregT (Jul 17, 2013)

Steven and Dioxide,

Thank you -- I was able to get it from Steven's dropbox, and Dioxide, thank you for the PM and attempt to email.

277 pages -- wow, I will look for anything that indicates whether a resale purchase has limited access to the Trust itself.

This is important to determine whether I can buy resale points via Syed, or do I have to buy directly from Marriott ------ if access to the Trust inventory is the *only* requirement.

Thanks again!

Best,

Greg


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## StevenTing (Jul 17, 2013)

One thing I'm learning from reading this document is the initiation fee.



> Each New Member will be required to remit to the Association an initiation fee; provided, however, an initiation fee shall not be required to be paid by an existing Member.



So it sounds like, if you are already a Trust owner, if you buy resale, you avoid the $200 per interest, $2000 Minimum Initiation fee.  That makes buying resale more appealing now on the point side.


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## benyu2010 (Jul 17, 2013)

GregT said:


> This is important to determine whether I can buy resale points via Syed, or do I have to buy directly from Marriott ------ if access to the Trust inventory is the *only* requirement.



Greg, could you please let us know whether you buy retail or resale after the research? Thanks, Ben


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## benyu2010 (Jul 17, 2013)

StevenTing said:


> One thing I'm learning from reading this document is the initiation fee.
> 
> 
> 
> So it sounds like, if you are already a Trust owner, if you buy resale, you avoid the $200 per interest, $2000 Minimum Initiation fee.  That makes buying resale more appealing now on the point side.



Do you avoid that fee even your initial pot of Trust points was resale too? Interesting...


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## StevenTing (Jul 17, 2013)

benyu2010 said:


> Do you avoid that fee even your initial pot of Trust points was resale too? Interesting...



My interpretation says yes as existing Owner means an current Trust Owner.  However, that is MY interpretation and means diddly squat to Marriott.


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## GregT (Jul 17, 2013)

*Interesting quote here...*

Interesting excerpt -- please see the below -- thanks to FT for pointing this out to me (and thanks to Steven and Dioxide for providing the materials!)




> Upon the sale of an Interest, Program Manager may require the payment of an initiation fee.  Until payment of the initiation fee is received (or waived by Program Manager), the owner of such Interest(s) will not be entitled to reserve *any non-Trust Accommodations *with the Points associated with such Interest(s) except during the Open Reservation Period; however, payment of the initiation fee will restore the ability to make reservations during the Priority 1 Period, the Priority 2 Period, and the Priority 3 Period.  If the purchase of an Interest is not made from a Developer or an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) will not be entitled to access all of the Exchange Benefits offered by Program Manager in its sole and absolute discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid.




My interpretation of this is that a Trust Point owner can continue to make reservations within the Trust -- but is blocked from the Exchange Company until they've paid the initiation fee....


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## StevenTing (Jul 17, 2013)

Yes, but that initiation is waived for people that already own trust points.  For me, I am in a good position since I bought trust points.   For you since you only have enrolled weeks, you'll pay that $200 per interest, $2000 minimum imitation fee I order to have full access. 

So once you pay that imitation fee once its likely you'll never have to pay it again.  


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## NightSkyTraveler (Jul 17, 2013)

StevenTing said:


> Yes, but that initiation is waived for people that already own trust points.  For me, I am in a good position since I bought trust points.   For you since you only have enrolled weeks, you'll pay that $200 per interest, $2000 minimum imitation fee I order to have full access.
> 
> So once you pay that imitation fee once its likely you'll never have to pay it again.
> 
> ...



I wish I would have known this or found TUG before I purchased my resale points.


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## StevenTing (Jul 17, 2013)

NightSkyTraveler said:


> I wish I would have known this or found TUG before I purchased my resale points.



What do you mean?  Did you have to pay the initiation fee twice?


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## GregT (Jul 18, 2013)

benyu2010 said:


> Greg, could you please let us know whether you buy retail or resale after the research? Thanks, Ben



Ben,

I think there is a risk when buying resale that you may have restricted access to the Exchange Inventory.  For me personally, that's not relevant when making the decision since I am focused on continued access to the Trust.

As the Trust gets more and more robust, we may care less and less about access to the Exchange.

But considering my interest is secure access to the Trust, my read of the documents it that it will not be restricted.

So....at the moment, leaning towards a resale purchase of Trust Points.

Interesting stuff.

The entire purpose here....as TUGgers know....is that the contiguous week (6206/26) to my beloved fixed week (6205/25) now sits in the Trust.

If I can reserve a 3BR, based on my conversation Monday, I believe room assignments will connect the reservations and keep me in the room.

However....I believe that I need Trust Points to ensure I get this rare week.  

Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg


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## NightSkyTraveler (Jul 18, 2013)

StevenTing said:


> What do you mean?  Did you have to pay the initiation fee twice?
> 
> 
> --
> Sent using Tapatalk



I did on the resale...it had been a while since my direct purchase...and I just wanted it to go through...


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## StevenTing (Jul 18, 2013)

Hmmm.  I wonder if you can contact customer advocacy and see if you can get some money back based on page 266/277 of the document.   It's be worth a shot.  


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## Fasttr (Jul 18, 2013)

Greg....the next question is, if you purchase these points resale, and don't pay the fee, do you still have rights to book Trust inventory in the Priority 1 period (13 month window) or is access to that window only available using the Exchange procedures.  I am having a hard time understanding if you can or if you can't as a section of one document seems to contradict a section of another document on that topic.  I can't really see what booking rights you have as Trust only, as the booking rights seem to be intertwined with the Exchange program.


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## StevenTing (Jul 18, 2013)

If you don't pay the fee your booking window is limited.  One source says 60 days.  I haven't had a chance to interpret the document but it reads very similar. 


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## Fasttr (Jul 18, 2013)

StevenTing said:


> Yes, but that initiation is waived for people that already own trust points.  For me, I am in a good position since I bought trust points.   For you since you only have enrolled weeks, you'll pay that $200 per interest, $2000 minimum imitation fee I order to have full access.
> 
> So once you pay that imitation fee once its likely you'll never have to pay it again.



Steven....not sure that is accurate as an existing "Member" can be an "Exchange Member" or a "Trust member", so that section seems to say that either existing Member may not have to pay.


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## GregT (Jul 18, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> Greg....the next question is, if you purchase these points resale, and don't pay the fee, do you still have rights to book Trust inventory in the Priority 1 period (13 month window) or is access to that window only available using the Exchange procedures.  I am having a hard time understanding if you can or if you can't as a section of one document seems to contradict a section of another document on that topic.  I can't really see what booking rights you have as Trust only, as the booking rights seem to be intertwined with the Exchange program.



Understood, and an interesting question -- I plan to pay the fee to mitigate this issue (if I buy resale), but fundamentally, I would be an owner of the Trust with the right to make reservations within the Trust.

It is true that I may not have rights to book within the Exchange Company, but my interpretation is that I would be able to book Trust intervals, which is what I care most about (and frankly we all should, as the Trust becomes more robust).  The Trust documents do lay out the Premier Plus rights within the governing documents too, so the access rights to the Trust Inventory do mirror the access rights within the Exchange Company.

The documents are very complicated, but I feel much better about the risk having seen them.  Thanks again to TUGgers for providing the information and a second set of eyes.

Best,

Greg


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## benyu2010 (Jul 18, 2013)

Greg,

Access to trust inventory is my main object and where you may ultilize value of points. The language is pretty clear that initiation is the only obstacle to re-gain full access to booking window of P1, P2 and P3 upon sale of interest. 

From a marketing standpoint, it does not make any sense to sell a hot potato that contains little value for next taker. $2,400 is likely about net profit of small package for developer sale and resale apparently does not hurt developer's bottomline.

I will probably find a small package of resale, too. 

Thanks,

Best,

Ben


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## puckmanfl (Jul 18, 2013)

good morning....


Greg...

this all seems a bit risky as a mechanism to ensure week 26 6206.  What happens if your buddy with 15K trust points want to go to Hawaii during week 26.  What happens if they load this week into Exchange Company at 13 months, just as they did for our KL weeks?  Then anyone with PP can get it. Of course the odds are low as this is a 11.8K point requirement....


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## GregT (Jul 18, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning....
> 
> 
> Greg...
> ...



Puck, yes it is indeed risky -- but I think the chances are good.   I may indeed lose to the 15K Trust Point owner, but I think we TUGgers understand timelines and inventory loading better than most.

We will see...Will keep you apprised.

Best.

Greg


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## GregT (Jul 18, 2013)

benyu2010 said:


> Greg,
> 
> Access to trust inventory is my main object and where you may ultilize value of points. The language is pretty clear that initiation is the only obstacle to re-gain full access to booking window of P1, P2 and P3 upon sale of interest.
> 
> ...




Ben, 

I actually think the access to the Trust is not the potential restriction -- I think the restriction is the access to the Exchange Inventory.    We will see...

Best,

Greg


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## Fasttr (Jul 18, 2013)

GregT said:


> The Trust documents do lay out the Premier Plus rights within the governing documents too, so the access rights to the Trust Inventory do mirror the access rights within the Exchange Company.



Greg....seems like I read somewhere that resale trust points will not count toward "status" (P, P+, etc) so if you are looking at Trust status only to get you the 13 month window, you might want to make absolutely sure you will have that status in just the Trust alone.  Again, as mentioned before, the entanglement of Trust and Exchange is somewhat confusing in the docs.


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## fluke (Jul 18, 2013)

StevenTing said:


> Yes, but that initiation is waived for people that already own trust points.  For me, I am in a good position since I bought trust points.   For you since you only have enrolled weeks, you'll pay that $200 per interest, $2000 minimum imitation fee I order to have full access.
> 
> So once you pay that imitation fee once its likely you'll never have to pay it again.
> 
> ...



I always thought the initiation fee was equivalent to the education fee ($300 per person).  I thought the $200 per beneficial interest was the rofr waiver fee.  I could be wrong.


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## GregT (Jul 18, 2013)

StevenTing said:


> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/62hqbyq5baanocx/fokkqWUdGx



Thanks again to Steven for the dropbox link and to Dioxide for the email of same document.

I've combed through it, and excerpted what I believe are the key sections.   It is too big to attach, so if you would like my excerpt of the key sections, please send a PM.  

In my opinion, the restrictions that may potentially be placed on resale Trust Points relate only to access the Exchange Inventory, and not the Trust Inventory itself.  

This may not be news to other TUGgers, but I suspected more severe penalties for the resale Trust Points.   My interpretation of the attached is that they are relatively clean with respect to accessing Trust Inventory itself -- which is my primary objective.

I apologize if this was already understood by most TUGgers but I was happy to read the documents for myself.

All the best,

Greg


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## SueDonJ (Jul 18, 2013)

Greg, I'm in the same boat as Puck - I'd be extremely leery about purchasing _anything_ that's not deeded as fixed with a desired result of consistent unit placement at the resorts.  It's surprising that you don't feel the same way.  Is it possible that in all your dealings with them lately regarding purchasing the Week before they convey it to the Trust, they've given you some reassurance that the resort personnel will always give you the placement you want?

I promise, I'm not asking so I can turn around and criticize Marriott for inconsistent customer service (as much as I do love to do that )  It's just that I'm at a loss to understand why, if you don't have such an agreement, you're considering a Trust Points purchase.  You're the TUG champion of, "why buy when you can rent?!"  You started the rental ball rolling!


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## GregT (Jul 18, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> Greg, I'm in the same boat as Puck - I'd be extremely leery about purchasing _anything_ that's not deeded as fixed with a desired result of consistent unit placement at the resorts.  It's surprising that you don't feel the same way.  Is it possible that in all your dealings with them lately regarding purchasing the Week before they convey it to the Trust, they've given you some reassurance that the resort personnel will always give you the placement you want?
> 
> I promise, I'm not asking so I can turn around and criticize Marriott for inconsistent customer service (as much as I do love to do that )  It's just that I'm at a loss to understand why, if you don't have such an agreement, you're considering a Trust Points purchase.  You're the TUG champion of, "why buy when you can rent?!"  You started the rental ball rolling!



Sue, I understand your comments completely, and I too find it ironic that I'm considering Trust Points.  

The logic (such as it is) is as follows:

1) I know the _specific_ week that I want is in the Trust
2) I believe its going to be very difficult to purchase two contiguous 3BR weeks from existing owners
3) I definitely believe that I can secure a 3-5 day reservation in a 3BR week 26 using Trust Points
4) I do not believe that I can secure a 3-5 day reservation in a 3BR week 26 using Legacy Points (or I wouldn't be exploring this) -- I track the owners of these weeks and they rent them/use them, they do not redeem them for points
5) When I spoke to MOC's GM and also the room assignments department manager, she indicated it is in their interest to keep me in the same room (ie, still in 6206), especially if I have an early date stamp.

My opinion is that the scarce Trust Inventory weeks are being held in the Trust during months 12-13, and only released to the Exchange Inventory at Month 12 (if even then -- we have three instances of this -- mine, SMB1 and Fasttr).   I just don't think the only 3BR week 26 that resides in the Trust will make it to Month 12 because of all the Trust Point owner competitors like my 15K friend.

But for me, I believe it is bookable, when one considers an atomic clock, throwaway days and Puck Trick II.  This is similar to a favorite trick I have with HHV Lagoon Tower that has been successful in getting prime weeks.

Renting still makes sense for the Exchange Inventory -- but when you rent a Trust Point, it loses its preferential access to the Trust (or I would just be renting Trust Points).  I ran that test last year by renting from StevenTing, and the Transferred Trust Point didn't have Trust access. 

So....I may be making a mistake here, but I think this is my best near-term opportunity to build a 10-12 day reservation in the unit that I love.   I would definitely rather having purchased it than be doing this.....

We will see.   Interesting stuff!

Best,

Greg


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## davidvel (Jul 18, 2013)

benyu2010 said:


> Greg,
> ...
> The language is pretty clear that initiation is the only obstacle to re-gain full access to booking window of P1, P2 and P3 upon sale of interest.
> ...


This is an interesting discussion. In reading the quoted and bolded language in GregT's post above, my interpretation is that not-paying initiation only restricts reservation of non-trust interests. 

I did not read it to mean there is any restriction on reserving trust interests as you state above. At the same time, I have not read all the docs...


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## davidvel (Jul 18, 2013)

GregT said:


> Understood, and an interesting question -- I plan to pay the fee to mitigate this issue (if I buy resale), but fundamentally, I would be an owner of the Trust with the right to make reservations within the Trust.


Greg-

It may make sense to NOT pay initially, and then see what rights they give you. You can be the guinea pig 

You can always pay once you test it out with them.


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## GregT (Jul 18, 2013)

GregT said:


> Renting still makes sense for the Exchange Inventory -- *but when you rent a Trust Point, it loses its preferential access to the Trust (or I would just be renting Trust Points).  *I ran that test last year by renting from StevenTing, and the Transferred Trust Point didn't have Trust access.



Steven and I are repeating the experiment - will keep you apprised.

Best,

Greg


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## m61376 (Jul 18, 2013)

Not to be a wet noodle here- BUT with all the recent "talk" that Marriott now considers a point a point- is it possible that the exceptions you and others have noted will disappear over the next several months as they smooth out that process, co-mingling everything into the exchange company? IF- and a big IF, I know_ that becomes true, potentially you will have spent an awful lot of money without garnering any advantage. 

I forget- were you able to secure that reservation for next year? Even if not, the advantage period is gone, and you certainly have several months to play with and see how everything pans out before rushing into a purchase, since you wouldn't need the points until May of next year to make that 13 month reservation.

Even resale, you are talking about a huge expenditure, competing against potentially lots of others owners for a single unit. And if the week 27 owner decides to come early and competes with you, you could both be vying for the same room assignment. Again- it's a big financial commitment with a lot of "IFs."

Of course, it may be just that important to you and Jonelle that it is worth the money, but sometimes we tend to get caught up in what we want that we lose sight of the forest through the trees, so to speak. Just playing devil's advocate here....


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## dioxide45 (Jul 18, 2013)

GregT said:


> Steven and I are repeating the experiment - will keep you apprised.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Greg, It would be very interesting to confirm if rented trust points are really only as good as legacy points. Not that it is a bad thing. Though it would mean there really isn't a premium to be paid to rent trust points over legacy points. Let us know the results of your latest experiment.

Ps. I killed the 20MB file email from my outbox that I was trying to send. It was the same one available in Steven's dropbox. It was taking a long time to send since upload speeds are far slower than download.


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## GregT (Jul 19, 2013)

All,

It has been a productive afternoon, and very clarifying on this system that we participate in.

I spoke at length today with VOA's, spending about 90 minutes total between 3 different VOA's.

Key comments:

1) VOAs indicate the majority of properties/weeks today will be accessible via "Flex" points, meaning either Trust/Legacy/Hybrid points

2) There are very few weeks that they recall seeing that require exclusively Trust points

3) Those few weeks tend to be extremely prime weeks, and the opinion is that they remain bookable with Trust Points only during months 12-13, and then open to Flex points 

4) I was able to book a Trust Point only week using the rented Trust Points (this is significant for me)
       This was a novelty to the VOA too, who was as curious as I was if the Transferred Trust Points would work.    I booked a single night reservation at Ocean Watch that was clearly designated for Trust reservations.  The VOAs can tell by looking at the inventory what requires Trust Points, and what (most) require Flex points.   I duplicated the experiment tonight, and was able to book the single Ocean Watch day online -- and then when checking availability , it confirmed that there had only been one unit available (and I'd booked it/broken it).

5) Maui Ocean Club appears to be a property that is primarily "Flex", and not a single week could be found that required Trust Points

6) However, they did not have a single 3BR available for reservation (they were all booked - note there are only three 3BR units from the Trust that are still in 12-13 months out window -- two week 30s and one week 32, and they were gone)

My views at this point:  It is huge that I was able to rent Trust Points, and then be able to book a confirmed Trust Point Only reservation.  This significantly reduces the pressure to buy Trust Points, and increases the value of Trust Point rentals.  This is mitigated by the fact that only a subset of owners (Premier/Premier Plus) can benefit from this incremental value of the Trust Point rental.

The VOAs believe that -- for the most part -- a point is a point.  Two out of the three were aware of rare, extremely prime weeks that would require Trust Points.  One of them said -- unprompted -- "as an example, if you want July 4th in Maui, that's going to require Trust Points".   I thought that was amusing.

The most disappointing thing about today (because I was happy with everything else) was that all three VOAs reported inconsistency in timing of loading inventory.   As an example, its not always there 13 months out.  It might be loaded 12 months 28 days out.   This is disappointing, and something that I need to track for my little strategy to work.

So...that's what I learned today.  Interesting stuff.  Thank you to TUGgers who have presented alternative views -- all of which I have previously considered, and all of which are valid considerations.   Nothing is certain with this system, and there is no clear course of action.

Best to all,

Greg


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## mjm1 (Jul 19, 2013)

Greg, thanks once again for the time you have devoted/invested to help everyone learn more about this system.  It is indeed very interesting. I hope in the end you are able to accomplish what you are trying to do.

Mike


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## m61376 (Jul 19, 2013)

Greg- Thanks for the herculean research! So it seems that a point really isn't fully a point, as they've claimed, at least yet. However, as far as rental values go, Trust Points would only command a higher value for those Premiere or Premiere Plus owners who happen to want one of those rare Trust only weeks. For the vast majority of rentals, there is no advantage then to renting Trust Points, and at 12 months or less, Trust=Legacy Points. I think that's an important distinction for both sides of the rental market to keep in mind.

As for your dilemma-  still seems to me that the only way to ensure a reservation is to own the week, and anything else will be a crapshoot from year to year. Were you successful in securing the reservation for 2014? If so, at least you'll find out how likely retaining the same unit will be in practice, although anything is subject to change over time. Given that, I am glad you found a much less costly avenue to possibly achieve your goal, and can potentially make good personal use of your own point rental site.


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## GregT (Jul 19, 2013)

Marilyn,

Thank you - this is all advance work for 2015 reservations. As you've noted, 2014 timing has passed for the reservation windows. So this has been in anticipation of needing to accumulate Trust Points for May 2014.   This gives me time to buy or rent; depending on what path I take. 

The biggest downer is that I can't be assured the inventory loads right at 13 months.  I need to know exactly when the inventory is there to make this work.   I believe that if I can secure the reservation, room assignments has an interest in giving me 6206.  I just need to get the days, and uncertainty of inventory loading introduces more competition. 

And of course, things could change again.   But this evolution to this point makes the most sense to me.  

Thanks to all for their comments. 

Best,

Greg


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## Fasttr (Jul 19, 2013)

All good info Greg.  Thanks for your efforts to help us all understand a little bit more the ins and outs of the system.  If nothing else, this thread did get a few of us to re-read (or perhaps actually even read for the first time) the documents, which is a couple hours of my life I will never get back, but most likely well spent in refreshing my memory for a better understanding how the system is laid out, and supposed to work.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 19, 2013)

Greg, Did your online (Marriott.com) confirmation for the one night Ocean Watch trust reservation indicate "MVC TRUST" instead of "MVC EXCHANGE" as FT has reported on all 20 of his DC point reservations?


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## StevenTing (Jul 19, 2013)

It does say MVC Trust.   


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## GregT (Jul 19, 2013)

As Steven as indicated, the online confirmation said MVC Trust.

I did three confirmations yesterday -- the first one was me working alone looking for Trust intervals and I picked Ocean Watch because of SMB1's experience.  I booked a single night in a 2BR OF, and it came in as MVC Exchange.

I called to cancel it, and thus began the first of my three conversations.  The first two calls were really information gathering.  During the third call (after more information gathering), I asked the VOA to look for a week at Ocean Watch that was being designated to require Trust Points.  He found a 2BR OS that had just been loaded and I asked him to book a single night.  He was curious if the Transferred Trust Point would work (he had been looking at this inventory of what was available, not what my membership was indicating was available).

He put me on hold and called his Trust Point Technical Supervisor (or some similar title).  After about 3 minutes he came back and told me that the TPTS was 100% certain that it would work.  He booked it and it worked.  We spoke for a few more minutes and I had him cancel the one day reservation.  When I hung up, I checked the confirmation, noted the MVC Trust, and was very happy (and forwarded it to Steven).

Last night when I got home, I replicated the experience myself using the online system to make sure it wasn't some quirk of having it handled by a VOA, but I again got a confirmation that said MVC Trust.  I canceled that one this morning.

Again, in my view, this is terrific and I believe we will start to see separation in rental values for Legacy Point and Trust Points.

This little experiment reinforces the value of Premier Plus.  The ability to book single days across the entire system is extremely powerful, as is the ability to now book Trust Inventory in that same time period.

Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg


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## windje2000 (Jul 19, 2013)

Greg

Wow - some rays of sunshine on what has heretofore been a black op.  

One observation - and its been a while since I read the documents - but I recall making a mental note that VAC gives itself 'broad powers' to 'manage' the exchange process/procedures.  

That of course translates to subject to change. . .  without notice.

Probably wouldn't affect a Trust owner seeking Trust occupancy, but certainly could affect the Legacy/Hybrid group and its access to the exchange company.


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## Fasttr (Jul 19, 2013)

windje2000 said:


> One observation - and its been a while since I read the documents - but I recall making a mental note that VAC gives itself 'broad powers' to 'manage' the exchange process/procedures.



Yes, pure Trust reservations seem to have fewer potential restrictions than Exchange reservations and they do seem to give themselves leeway in the docs to tweak the Exchange system as they see fit.  That said, the vast majority of reservations made are Exchange reservations so unless you are booking in the 13 month window for these select Trust assets, most of us are likely more often governed by the Exchange rules and regs, which windje2000 has pointed out are subject to change.


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## m61376 (Jul 19, 2013)

Greg- A question you might want to ask- will the system let you waitlist at exactly 13 months out, so if the reservation isn't loaded at 9AM potentially your waitlist request will be filled once it is loaded. Of course, there's the requisite online checking between midnight and 9AM, since points reservations seem to load sometime earlier than the 9AM they should first appear (at least I found that at the 60 day mark and Puck also found that at the 12 or 13 month mark [I believe- not sure exactly what timeframe he reported that happening]), and the risk that perhaps the coveted reservation will be nabbed by someone calling in before being matched to their waitlist, but it might be an additional option. 

Seems maddening that you can reserve at 13 months, but that doesn't mean that the inventory is placed for reservations at the 13 month mark. I understand the concept of  13 month and a 12 month mark, and of holding half the reservations to the 12 month mark so that multiple week owners can't nab all the inventory, but don't understand why they would choose a random date.

Not to put a damper on your plans, but I do think there is something else you need to at least consider before buying enough points to make that reservation. While I understand that no point owner can reserve your beloved unit during week 25, theoretically as Marriott acquires more units, there may be other 3 BR week 25 units in the trust, and a Trust owner may make a point reservation for weeks 25 and 26, so that he/she can reserve at the 13 month mark consecutively a week before you can, since you'd only be making a point reservation for week (or days of week) 26. Since there are so few of these units in the Trust, and likely will be very few for years to come, potentially your week 26 could be nabbed by someone making consecutive point reservations.

The only "perfect plan," to to speak, would be to approach an owner on adjacent floors and see about buying a week 26, or if you really want the same unit, a week 25 and 26, and then inviting family or friends along for week 25 (Tug friends count here :hysterical or selling your unit if you can secure consecutive weeks in another unit. In the long run, it's the only guarantee, and a heck of a lot cheaper than buying retail points at least (and the MF's for those points- ouch!).


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## GregT (Jul 19, 2013)

m61376 said:


> Greg- A question you might want to ask- will the system let you waitlist at exactly 13 months out, so if the reservation isn't loaded at 9AM potentially your waitlist request will be filled once it is loaded.
> ------------------------------
> Not to put a damper on your plans, but I do think there is something else you need to at least consider before buying enough points to make that reservation. While I understand that no point owner can reserve your beloved unit during week 25, theoretically as Marriott acquires more units, there may be other 3 BR week 25 units in the trust, and a Trust owner may make a point reservation for weeks 25 and 26, so that he/she can reserve at the 13 month mark consecutively a week before you can, since you'd only be making a point reservation for week (or days of week) 26. Since there are so few of these units in the Trust, and likely will be very few for years to come, potentially your week 26 could be nabbed by someone making consecutive point reservations.



Marilyn,

Thank you for the thoughts -- I also agree that waitlist at 13 months would be desirable, but is not available.

With respect to the Week 25 risk -- it is real, because there is one Week 25 already in the trust (3206/25). I do appreciate your pointing out the risk (which is real), but I still think I have a decent chance of getting my desired reservation.    Will send you a PM.

Best,

Greg


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## m61376 (Jul 19, 2013)

Greg- Just trying to understand not only your reservation issue but get a grasp of how things really work- and certainly don't trying to be difficult. However, for argument's sake- and because the ultimately flexibility of the points system, especially with relatively rare units, but since the fixed units are also a set arrival day (I am assuming Sat.), what happens if someone reserves 8 days, or 10 days, or whatever, starting during week 25 for unit 3206. I assume that even though it's a single reservation, they'd have to move, unless unit 3206 wasn't sold as a fixed unit? Also, that would mean that they might be reserving a full week, or part thereof, before you could at 13 months, assuming the inventory was in the system- which is also why I'm not getting that the inventory appears at some random date.


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## NightSkyTraveler (Jul 19, 2013)

Am I right to assume that I could just trade/transfer my trust points to someone like Greg so that he could make a reservation using only trust points and he could book what I needed using his legacy points since most reservations it does not matter which type of points are used?


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## Fasttr (Jul 19, 2013)

NightSkyTraveler said:


> Am I right to assume that I could just trade/transfer my trust points to someone like Greg so that he could make a reservation using only trust points and he could book what I needed using his legacy points since most reservations it does not matter which type of points are used?



That could be a win-win.  He gets his much coveted Trust Points to book his target week, and assuming you are not Premier Plus like it sounds like Greg is, you could benefit by him booking early reservations for you using his Legacy points (assuming the reservation you are looking for is available to be had with Legacy points in the 13 month window).


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## StevenTing (Jul 20, 2013)

Greg would also get the benefit of the nights being credited to his account.  


--
Sent using Tapatalk


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## GregT (Jul 20, 2013)

StevenTing said:


> Greg would also get the benefit of the nights being credited to his account.
> 
> 
> --
> Sent using Tapatalk



Steven, theoretically yes, but I think it more likely that the person who checks in gives their MR number, and they get the nights credited.

I do like the creativity that NightSky and Fasttr are showing -- interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg


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## m61376 (Jul 20, 2013)

Just shows it pays to have friends . Seriously, though, it does open interesting loopholes, which can be maximized to be mutually beneficial.

Reading this thread and another one about an invitation in Houston for a presentation wherein the reps were insisting that going forward a point is a point is interesting. Clearly today a point is closer to being a point than it was last year, but still isn't quite the same for certain high demand, low availability weeks in the Trust between 12 and 13 months. I wonder if that will stay the way it is, or will the two pools be effectively and completely co-mingled? Of course, legally they are two separate entities, but can effectively be the same IF Marriott immediately dumps all Trust units into the exchange pool.

What I don't understand is why Trust units may or may not be available at exactly the 13 month mark. I understand if they're taken before 13 months by a consecutive point reservation, but not how they can first be added at 12 months and 28 or 29 days. Marriott knows which trust reservations are available and which aren't; availability is not dependent on an owner depositing his/her week, which could of course cause fluctuations in the exchange inventory throughout the year (at least during the first half of the year, wherein an owner can elect to exchange for points for the following year). It makes me wonder if there is some other internal mechanism we're not aware of.


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## Fasttr (Jul 20, 2013)

m61376 said:


> What I don't understand is why Trust units may or may not be available at exactly the 13 month mark. I understand if they're taken before 13 months by a consecutive point reservation, but not how they can first be added at 12 months and 28 or 29 days. Marriott knows which trust reservations are available and which aren't; availability is not dependent on an owner depositing his/her week, which could of course cause fluctuations in the exchange inventory throughout the year (at least during the first half of the year, wherein an owner can elect to exchange for points for the following year). It makes me wonder if there is some other internal mechanism we're not aware of.



This is more of a question for Greg, as he had the conversation with the VOA's, but is the issue with 12 months and 28 or 29 days a result of the points owners availability chart rolling over to new dates each Wednesday?  As an example, If I wanted to book June 30, 2015 (a Tuesday), that is available in the 13 month window on May 27th, 2014 (a few days more than 13 months), but if I want to book July 1, 2015 (the next day...a Wednesday), that is available in the 13 month window on June 3rd, 2014.  So June 3rd would be at 12 months and 28 days.  Just tossing it out there.


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## GregT (Jul 20, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> This is more of a question for Greg, as he had the conversation with the VOA's, but is the issue with 12 months and 28 or 29 days a result of the points owners availability chart rolling over to new dates each Wednesday?  As an example, If I wanted to book June 30, 2015 (a Tuesday), that is available in the 13 month window on May 27th, 2014 (a few days more than 13 months), but if I want to book July 1, 2015 (the next day...a Wednesday), that is available in the 13 month window on June 3rd, 2014.  So June 3rd would be at 12 months and 28 days.  Just tossing it out there.



This is a good question, and I do not yet know the answer.  I will play with the system a lot, that's for sure, but the comment from the VOAs was more like inventory typically is released at 13 months out, but they've noticed a few instances where it didn't load at 13 months, and was there a few days later. 

I took this more as similar to AA frequent flier awards, which typically release at 331 days before the day of flight, but there have been a couple of times where I've called at 331, then 330, then 329, and only 328 days before flight did it load.  More of a glitch than a policy.

I will definitely report back to TUGgers if I can detect a trend.  I have booked inventory 13 months out exactly on release day without incident on three occasions, so hopefully they are noting only an occasional glitch.

Best,

Greg


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## taffy19 (Jul 20, 2013)

m61376 said:


> Greg- Just trying to understand not only your reservation issue but get a grasp of how things really work- and certainly don't trying to be difficult. However, for argument's sake- and because the ultimately flexibility of the points system, especially with relatively rare units, but since the fixed units are also a set arrival day (I am assuming Sat.), what happens if someone reserves 8 days, or 10 days, or whatever, starting during week 25 for unit 3206. I assume that even though it's a single reservation, they'd have to move, unless unit 3206 wasn't sold as a fixed unit? Also, that would mean that they might be reserving a full week, or part thereof, before you could at 13 months, assuming the inventory was in the system- which is also why I'm not getting that the inventory appears at some random date.


All three bedroom condos at both new towers are sold as fixed week/units.

When we stayed in March, our studio (part of our fixed week condo) was standing vacant several days during the week.  It was rented over the week-end, we assume, and the week was broken.  I believe that it was used one extra day during the week.  Someone may have been moved over there because they had rented more than 7 days on points.  It is a week lost to Legacy week owners, IMHO.


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## Fasttr (Aug 9, 2013)

StevenTing said:


> One thing I'm learning from reading this document is the initiation fee.
> _Quote:
> Each New Member will be required to remit to the Association an initiation fee; provided, however, an initiation fee shall not be required to be paid by an existing Member.​_So it sounds like, if you are already a Trust owner, if you buy resale, you avoid the $200 per interest, $2000 Minimum Initiation fee. That makes buying resale more appealing now on the point side. .



Steven...this "find" has been haunting me for awhile now, and I finally got a solid answer out of a gentleman with the title: Manager, Customer Care at MVC.  I interpreted that excerpt as you did when I read it in the Exchange Documents of the DC, but as he pointed out to me, if you read further, it tacks on some important additional information.  For clarification sake, here is the entire section from VII D of the Exchange Docs.  

_D. Effect of Transfer of Member’s Interest. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties to a sale, assignment, or transfer, if a Member ("Selling Member") sells, assigns, or transfers the Selling Member’s Interest to another party ("New Member"), the Selling Member will lose any and all rights to utilize the Exchange Points associated with such Interest to reserve the use of a Use Period or to use any previously-reserved Use Period. Each New Member will be required to remit to the Exchange Company an initiation fee; provided, however, an initiation fee shall not be required to be paid if the New Member is an existing Member or a Family Member of the Selling Member. (The current initiation fee is $200 per Interest with a $2,000 minimum initiation fee; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company’s sole discretion.) Exchange Company will, within ten (10) business days of receipt from a New Member of the initiation fee, if required, and a certified copy of the recorded deed transferring an Interest to the New Member, change Exchange Company’s official records to reflect such transfer of an Interest from a Selling Member to a New Member. Further, with respect to Trust Members, until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the New Member may not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Special Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole discretion; however, payment of the initiation fee (or waiver by Exchange Company) will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. With respect to Exchange Members, until payment of the initiation fee, the New Member will not be entitled to participate in the Program. If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Special Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid. Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties, all existing reservations previously made by the Selling Member will be cancelled. The New Member will also be given possession of the Selling Member’s Exchange Points remaining as of the date of Exchange Company’s recognition of such transfer. Exchange Company shall, from time to time, within ten (10) business days after receipt of written request from any Member execute, acknowledge and deliver to such Member or to any existing or prospective purchaser or mortgagee designated by such Member, a certificate stating the number of Exchange Points that the Member has used and/or has available for use during the current Use Year, any borrowed Exchange Points, and the details of any reservations currently held by the Member. Exchange Company may charge a fee in connection with providing such a certificate.​_You and I were only reading the red text as stand alone text, without reading the purple text which is providing additional clarification.  In the definitions section of the Exchange Docs, an existing "Member" can either be a Trust Member or an Exchange (i.e. Legacy) Member.  What the MVC rep was saying is that the purple highlighted excerpt means that although an existing Trust points owner does not HAVE to pay the $200/BI, if they do not, their usage of the resale purchased points in the Exchange program will be restricted to the 60 day prior to check in window.  For a Legacy Points owner, unless the $200/BI is paid, you cannot use the resale purchased points in the Exchange program at all.


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## Quilter (Aug 10, 2013)

I'm rather lost with all the details that have come up in this thread.  Would someone be so kind to give me the pertinent cliff notes?


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## jimf41 (Aug 10, 2013)

Quilter said:


> I'm rather lost with all the details that have come up in this thread.  Would someone be so kind to give me the pertinent cliff notes?



Essentially it's a discussion about the usefulness and limitations of Trust points bought resale as opposed to buying them direct from MVCI. GregT wants a specific week that appears to be in the Trust inventory and he wants to get it 13 months out rather than wait till 12 months. He wants to know if resale trust points can access the week 13 months out.

He hasn't bought anything yet so we are all kind of waiting to see how it turns out. If it makes you feel better most of it is deep into the weeds and way over my head also.


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## Quilter (Aug 10, 2013)

Thanks Jim.   I hope when there's a final conclusion there will be a post with an easy to understand outline.

As I've mentioned before I don't own Trust points and when the discussion heads in the direction as to what resorts have so much inventory conveyed to the Trust or what units at what resorts are conveyed to the Trust I'm standing out in the dark.   But there may come a time it will be something I will need to take into consideration so it's good to understand the flow for future reference.


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