# Kevin Smith booted from Southwest as "TOO FAT"



## Ken555 (Feb 15, 2010)

I read his Twitter postings last night when notified by a friend what was happening. You don't hear much from Kevin Smith, but when you do he definitely makes a point. I'm sure some of you will appreciate this, since this topic has been mentioned in other threads here.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/02/15/kevin.smith.southwest/index.html?hpt=T2


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## DeniseM (Feb 15, 2010)

That must have been embarrassing, but it sounds like he couldn't get the arm rest down, by his own admission.  I applaud him for buying 2 seats in the first place - he probably would have been fine if he stuck with his original plan, instead of deciding to change flights and fly stand by.  I sounds like he got on the flight he actually had tickets for with no problem.  It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.


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## Luanne (Feb 15, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.



What do you mean?  Other than him writing, and talking about his experience, I doubt anything will change.  It sounds like he got an apology from SW (for what I'm not sure since they were following their policy).


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## DeniseM (Feb 15, 2010)

I just don't think we have heard the end of it.


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## Luanne (Feb 15, 2010)

You know, honestly I don't even know who Kevin Smith is.  I read the article and I still don't know.  So, this will get attention because of who he is and because he's decided to write about it.  Whatever. :ignore:


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## UWSurfer (Feb 15, 2010)

Don't read too much into this.   The timing is very suspect and is likely a hook by a publicist for the upcoming movie he's in, let alone for himself.


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## geekette (Feb 15, 2010)

Luanne said:


> You know, honestly I don't even know who Kevin Smith is.



me either.

last guy I knew by that name was part of a cult, crazy eyes and all.


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## DeniseM (Feb 15, 2010)

I don't know anything about Kevin Smith either, but there is an active group of flyers who are quite militant about this issue and may see this is an opportunity for some publicity for their cause.  Just saying...


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## Luanne (Feb 15, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> I don't know anything about Kevin Smith either, but there is an active group of flyers who are quite militant about this issue and may see this is an opportunity for some publicity for their cause.  Just saying...



Guess I'm just not paying enough attention.


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## Liz Wolf-Spada (Feb 15, 2010)

I don't want to sit next to a stranger whose body is touching mine because he can't put the armrest done. We flew ATA once to Hawaii and those seats are so small that even with the armrest down, the man next to me was touching my arm enough for my arm hair to respond. Ick. I put on a sweater, which helped. The problem isn't the heavier people, it's the smaller seats.
Liz


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## Rose Pink (Feb 15, 2010)

Liz Wolf-Spada said:


> ...The problem isn't the heavier people, it's the smaller seats.
> Liz


And those seats just keep getting smaller the heavier I get. No worries.  I'm cutting down on junk food.


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## Luanne (Feb 15, 2010)

I think Southwest provides more room in their seats, and between the rows, than other airlines (if you're sitting in economy).


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## Passepartout (Feb 15, 2010)

I'd like to see Mr. Smith and 2 other of the militant traveling (Uh, Um, see #8) roundly proportioned folks be the last to board a SW flight with one row of seats available and all the overheads full. Let them enjoy each others' company without infringing on another travelers' space.

Oh, Sorry if this sounds cruel.

Jim Ricks


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## Ken555 (Feb 15, 2010)

Kevin Smith is a well-known director and actor. You can see his Twitter account first hand by going here (which, BTW, has 1.6 MILLION followers).

He wrote yesterday:



> But contrary to their claim that I regularly purchase two seats, I wasn't a regular 2-seat buyer until just this week. They SEIZED on that. In their "apology" blog, they implied (or flat-out wrote) that I regularly purchase 2 seats. Writing that buttresses their lie: 2 Fat 2 Fly. But, by their own guidelines, I was not, in fact, 2 Fat 2 Fly: the arm rests went down & I could buckle my seat belt w/o an extender. So...?


He wrote today that the ladies on either side of him had no problem with him remaining on the flight, and that the arm-rests were down. The CNN article was rather sanitized, if we are to believe what Kevin is writing.

And yes, it could very well be promo for his upcoming movie release for later this month - including Cop Out with Bruce Willis and Tracy Morgan.


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## Ken555 (Feb 15, 2010)

Top story on www.cnn.com right now.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/Movies/02/15/kevin.smith.southwest/index.html?hpt=C1


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## Mamianka (Feb 15, 2010)

Last time we flew Southwest - a couple of years ago, before all this flap about fees for checked luggage - the flight attendant told us that their planes have some of smallest overhead compartments of any planes.  I HATE having my bag overhead - I will injure myslef and others retreiving it, certainly.  So I have a great wheeled eBag that has 38 pockets and slides under the seat - it's the Swiss Army knife of travel (and I pack a computer AND a printer, plus all my audio stuff - professional classical musician - but do not take my instrument on vacation).  So - Southwest only tries ot LOOK magnanimous in not charging for checked bags (it's built into the ticket, as we all know) since they cannot FIT enough industry-standard-sized bags overhead or under the seats.  

Any time a celebrity is involved in one of these flaps, I am more than a little suspicious.  Saw his name, read no further . . .Silent Bob, indeed . . .


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## jamstew (Feb 16, 2010)

Mamianka said:


> I have a great wheeled eBag that has 38 pockets and slides under the seat - it's the Swiss Army knife of travel .



Can you tell me what kind of bag it is? Sounds like something I'd love since I also prefer to put my carry-on under the seat.


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## BevL (Feb 16, 2010)

He needs to start flying Air Canada/Westjet

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/city/story.html?id=b1b82c57-d633-479a-bfde-18e6424ccd46


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## Passepartout (Feb 16, 2010)

Gosh, I use a max-legal size carry-on and it goes into SW's overhead just fine. Much better than USAir's Airbus overhead. Then I put my courier bag under the seat and Voila!, no check bag, no time at the carousel coming or the counter going.

Available with wheels: http://www.luggageonline.com/product.cfm?product_ID=13631
Or for maximum space: http://www.luggageonline.com/product.cfm?product_ID=9040

Jim Ricks


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## John Cummings (Feb 16, 2010)

Luanne said:


> I think Southwest provides more room in their seats, and between the rows, than other airlines (if you're sitting in economy).



They certainly have a lot more room than American. I have never seen seats so narrow and less legroom than on an American flight to Dallas on a Boeing 757.


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## PigsDad (Feb 16, 2010)

John Cummings said:


> They certainly have a lot more room than American. I have never seen seats so narrow and less legroom than on an American flight to Dallas on a Boeing 757.


A quick check from seatguru.com shows SWA's seat pitchis 32-33" on their 737s, and AA's seat pitch is 31-32" on their 757s.  Not a huge difference, but an extra inch or two can make it much more comfortable.

As a tall person (6'5"), the first thing I do is take all the crap they put in the seatback pocket and stuff it in the overhead bin.  That can easily add another 1-2", depending on the airline.

Kurt


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## ricoba (Feb 16, 2010)

BevL said:


> He needs to start flying Air Canada/Westjet
> 
> http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/city/story.html?id=b1b82c57-d633-479a-bfde-18e6424ccd46



Thank you for that good link Bev. 

As one of those folks who would be deemed "too fat" to fly with SWA and now some other airlines, I appreciate to see the new requirement for Canadian airlines.  

While I recognize that this probably won't happen in the US with our difference in philosophies regarding these type of issues, it's encouraging to see the Canadian viewpoint.

I realize that there would be people who are uncomfortable to be seated next to someone like me on a plane and I do appreciate their discomfort regarding this.  I don't expect them to be happy if they have to sit next to someone who is too big for their seat.  That does not bother me at all since I do feel they have the right to their personal space and they should not be made to be uncomfortable to accommodate me or others of a certain size.

But I do believe the airlines need to address this issue more equitably than Southwest has done.  Not all of us are semi-celebrities ala Kevin Smith (who I did know who he was prior to this) who can afford to buy the extra seat.  While I understand that this may be SWA policy it does seem a bit discriminatory since they are not offering any compensation or accommodation to the "big" among us, such as offering a discount on the second seat etc.

I know others will disagree and that's OK.  But if we disagree here, let's be a bit more pleasant than some of the comments I read on the LA Times message board regarding this issue.  For some reason, calling fat folks bad names is perfectly acceptable in our society.


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## Luanne (Feb 16, 2010)

ricoba said:


> But I do believe the airlines need to address this issue more equitably than Southwest has done.  Not all of us are semi-celebrities ala Kevin Smith (who I did know who he was prior to this) who can afford to buy the extra seat.  While I understand that this may be SWA policy it does seem a bit discriminatory since they are not offering any compensation or accommodation to the "big" among us, such as offering a discount on the second seat etc.(



Not really a discount, but here is SWs pricing policy for the second seat:

What is the cost of the additional seating?
If the Customer is holding an advance purchase, discounted fare, the second seat will be sold at the same discounted fare. If the Customer has purchased one of our low, unrestricted full fares, the second seat will be sold at the Child’s Fare.


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## Stricky (Feb 16, 2010)

http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/Movies/02/15/kevin.smith.southwest/index.html?hpt=Sbin


> The extra seat is not a necessity, he said, but a luxury because "Southwest flights are cheap."
> 
> "I'm flying on the welfare airline, food-stamp airline," he said. "So I think I can indulge myself with two seats, and I can afford to do it."



He had a standby ticket. He has nothing to complain about.


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## John Cummings (Feb 16, 2010)

PigsDad said:


> A quick check from seatguru.com shows SWA's seat pitchis 32-33" on their 737s, and AA's seat pitch is 31-32" on their 757s.  Not a huge difference, but an extra inch or two can make it much more comfortable.
> 
> As a tall person (6'5"), the first thing I do is take all the crap they put in the seatback pocket and stuff it in the overhead bin.  That can easily add another 1-2", depending on the airline.
> 
> Kurt



It was also the very narrow seats on American that were very uncomfortable. The second leg of the flight to Wichita Falls was on an American Eagle turboprop that was a lot more comfortable.


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## davidvel (Feb 16, 2010)

John Cummings said:


> It was also the very narrow seats on American that were very uncomfortable. The second leg of the flight to Wichita Falls was on an *American Express* turboprop that was a lot more comfortable.



Did you get that flight free with your Costco card? :hysterical: [Sorry, this thread needed some levity.]


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## gmarine (Feb 16, 2010)

A Customer of Size who purchases a second seat on SW receives a refund of the 2nd seat if the flight does not oversell. I have done this twice mainly for the advantage for being able to turn to the side for more leg room, I'm 6'6 about 240lbs.

I applaud the SW policy which forces "customers of size " to purchase a second seat rather than squash other customers who have the right to the entire seat they purchased. Customers should not have to endure another person's body encroaching into the space that they purchased.


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## John Cummings (Feb 16, 2010)

davidvel said:


> Did you get that flight free with your Costco card? :hysterical: [Sorry, this thread needed some levity.]



Good one. I was having a senior moment. I should have said American Eagle.


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## Fern Modena (Feb 16, 2010)

Luanne,
Sounds fair, but is it?  No.  Why?  Even though the person of size may pay Southwest for two seats, they don't allow frequent flyer credit for the second one.  Its paid for by the passenger, so why shouldn't they get the credit?  The only "perk" they get is preboarding.

Fern



Luanne said:


> Not really a discount, but here is SWs pricing policy for the second seat:
> 
> What is the cost of the additional seating?
> If the Customer is holding an advance purchase, discounted fare, the second seat will be sold at the same discounted fare. If the Customer has purchased one of our low, unrestricted full fares, the second seat will be sold at the Child’s Fare.


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## Patri (Feb 16, 2010)

Luanne said:


> If the Customer has purchased one of our low, unrestricted full fares, the second seat will be sold at the Child’s Fare.



Does SW actually charge less for a child? Every airline I've bought tickets from asks the age of the travelers, but all seats were the same price.


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## UWSurfer (Feb 16, 2010)

Fern Modena said:


> Luanne,
> Sounds fair, but is it?  No.  Why?  Even though the person of size may pay Southwest for two seats, they don't allow frequent flyer credit for the second one.  Its paid for by the passenger, so why shouldn't they get the credit?  The only "perk" they get is preboarding.
> 
> Fern



They also know the seat next to them will be empty. :ignore:


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## laurac260 (Feb 17, 2010)

Patri said:


> Does SW actually charge less for a child? Every airline I've bought tickets from asks the age of the travelers, but all seats were the same price.


not that I am aware of.  When booking on their website, an "adult" is ages 2 and up.  They do offer a "senior fare", (which is rarely a discount), but unless your kid is under 2 and can ride in your lap, I have not seen a child's fare.


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## laurac260 (Feb 17, 2010)

this is a tough one.  Being so overweight that you take up two seats is rarely a medical issue.   Our "plus sized" society is having an effect on all of us.   Something as simple as buying pants for an "average" sized child has become a  chore in the past few years.  I used to be able to go to the store and buy  pants based on age (at 5,   a size 5, at six, a size six, and so forth). Now?  Forget it.  The pants that fit  in the length are  running atleast 2 inches too big in the waist.  Same topic, my husband used to wear a sized Large.  Now he swims in them.  Mediums are tight in the shoulders for him, but are loose in the waist.     Clothing mfg'rs seem to be making clothes "bigger".  Where does that leave us  "average sized pp"l, you know, those of us who keep our weight in check and don't eat at the fast food joints?  Personally, while I feel for your plight, I don't want to "share" my seat with a stranger.   

Perhaps someone can start a "plus sized airline"?


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## Rose Pink (Feb 17, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> Perhaps someone can start a "plus sized airline"?


I think that's called "first class" and SWA doesn't offer it. 

On a more somber note, society is getting fatter.  We can use euphemisms such as plus-size, king-size, customers of size, and so on but the honest term is obese.  We are fat.  We are not healthy and our poor health choices are causing a financial burden not only on ourselves but on people who have been more responsible with their life choices.  Everyone has to pay more for our extra weight be it in health insurance or uncomfortable travel conditions.  The airline industry should not have to revamp its seating just to accomodate my spread--and I do not have the right to encroach on someone else's seat.  IMO, Kevin Smith is an obnoxious whiner who thinks he is entitled to more than his fair share.

I made a resolution this year to improve my self-governance--to eat a more healthy diet, to be kind, to refrain from too much whining.  It's sad that it took a cancer scare and a heart disease scare to motivate me to change but at least I have taken some steps in the healthy direction.  D@#* but it's hard--one of the toughest things I've ever had to do.  But, to be a responsible citizen, these changes in my behavior are needed.


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## l2trade (Feb 17, 2010)

Let's see...

A celebrity flying a budget airline along with all us common folks: Applaud
A celebrity finding a convenient excuse to boycott said airline: Big surprise

I challenge the elitist celebrities and politicians to continue to fly commercial and sit in economy seats along with the rest of us.  Rather than boycott Southwest, why can't he find better ways to complain and actually seek improvements there?  Flying really sucks nowadays!  Maybe, if Kevin Smith really cared about these issues, he would continue to fly Southwest regularly and draw more attention to the many plights of the average airline consumer.  Boycotts are for the masses, not celebrities looking for excuses.  The rich & famous have more money and better options.

PS - Thanks Kevin Smith for the reminder about your new movie coming out.  I added it to my Netflix queue.


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## geekette (Feb 17, 2010)

*OT*



laurac260 said:


> Something as simple as buying pants for an "average" sized child has become a  chore in the past few years.  I used to be able to go to the store and buy  pants based on age (at 5,   a size 5, at six, a size six, and so forth). Now?  Forget it.  The pants that fit  in the length are  running atleast 2 inches too big in the waist.  Same topic, my husband used to wear a sized Large.  Now he swims in them.  Mediums are tight in the shoulders for him, but are loose in the waist.     Clothing mfg'rs seem to be making clothes "bigger".



clothing mfgrs have been playing this game for years!!!  I only buy clothing when I absolutely have to because there is no way i can guess what size I am and have to take several sizes of one item in to try on.  It's a big PITA and I'm sick of it.  So, I rarely buy clothes and stick with mfgrs that don't change sizing frequently.

I would love it if women's clothing used real numbers that mean something.  I CAN TAKE IT!!!  Like they do for bras - real sizing.  If bras ever go to sizing like, oh, 00 to 300, holy crap, that's it, I'll buy a ton of Ace bandages and wrap myself every morning...

and apply another roll or two to hips prior to flights


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## Rose Pink (Feb 17, 2010)

geekette said:


> ...I'll buy a ton of Ace bandages and wrap myself every morning...


We used to wrap DD's "ladies" for every dance performance. She is not built like a typical dancer and could not fit into the costumes. We even had some leotards specially made for her proportions. 

I used to hate having to buy pants for my son. He was average but pants just did not fit him. Too long, too wide, too short . . . . it was a pain getting a young boy to try on pair after pair after pair.

I don't think it is so much a matter of how fat or thin a person is as it is that person's proportions.


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## John Cummings (Feb 17, 2010)

laurac260 said:


> not that I am aware of.  When booking on their website, an "adult" is ages 2 and up.  They do offer a "senior fare", (which is rarely a discount), but unless your kid is under 2 and can ride in your lap, I have not seen a child's fare.



The senior fare is a non-restricted, fully refundable ticket. Though more expensive than the cheapest restricted fares, it is much cheaper than a comparable ticket.


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## Kel (Feb 18, 2010)

As a small healthy weight person, I would like a 25% discount on the many flights where I only got to use ¾ of my seat due to an overweight or obese person using ¼ of my seat.  The seat next to me on Southwest’s open seating flights are always number one choice seats for large people.  

Now I’ll start in on traveling babies.  I would like a 50% discount on two of my flights where I couldn’t use my tray table due to a baby sitting in the mother’s lap next to me.  For safety and comfort, babies should have their own seat.

And, don’t get me started on stinky guy.


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## l2trade (Feb 18, 2010)

Kel said:


> And, don’t get me started on stinky guy.



  Hey!  I showered this morning.  Blame the TSA for confiscating my shampoo and deodorant.


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## Rose Pink (Feb 18, 2010)

Kel said:


> And, don’t get me started on stinky guy.


I sat next to him last time.


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## Elan (Feb 18, 2010)

Kel said:


> As a small healthy weight person, I would like a 25% discount on the many flights where I only got to use ¾ of my seat due to an overweight or obese person using ¼ of my seat.  The seat next to me on Southwest’s open seating flights are always number one choice seats for large people.
> 
> Now I’ll start in on traveling babies.  I would like a 50% discount on two of my flights where I couldn’t use my tray table due to a baby sitting in the mother’s lap next to me.  For safety and comfort, babies should have their own seat.
> 
> And, don’t get me started on stinky guy.



  How about the airlines charge $1/lb (including bags) for every 1K miles flown?  

  That'd make for some interesting travel strategies.


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## BevL (Feb 18, 2010)

Kel said:


> And, don’t get me started on stinky guy.



I can do you one better.  Sat next to a guy who reeked, and insisted on putting on deodorant several times DURING THE FLIGHT IN HIS SEAT.

Then it was BO with a hint of manly aftershave smell.  Plus the contortions of him trying to get his arms under his shirt.  It still cracks me up remembering it.  Whenever hubby and I are in row with someone we may not have chosen, a simple "wonder if he has deodorant in his carry on" will definitely lighten the moment.


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## ricoba (Feb 18, 2010)

*LA Times Columnist Presents a Solution*

David Lazarus, LA Times Columnist puts this video blog up on the LA Times today regarding the too fat to fly issue.


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## "Roger" (Feb 18, 2010)

I have been reluctant to post on this topic given its sensitive nature.  I'll try to be as delicate as I can, but my apologies in advance if my skills are not up to the task.

We have a dilemma with a number of factors (not just one) contributing to the situation.

* We have become a nation in which obesity has become a major concern.  There are multiple causes for this, but better nutrition is not one of them.

* Airline seats have become uncomfortable for practically everyone.  No one group has the corner on this market.

* Airlines that have tried to provide bigger seats as a modest price increase have been forced to retreat.  (Midwest Express used to make a name for itself by providing four across seating.  They still exist, but in name only.  They are now a division of Republic Airlines and their seating is standard.  American Airlines gave up on it "more legroom" campaign.)  The bottom line is, while we all complain about the terrible seating, when push comes to shove, we buy cheaper seats.

I confess that I (and here I might step on some toes) am disappointed that the Canadian court's reaction (and to a lesser extent David Lazerus's reaction) to the problem of obesity is that we just need to accommodate to it.  On the other hand (and here I agree with both David Lazerus and with an earlier comment by Rick), I do not think it is fair to force some people to buy a full empty seat or upgrade to business class.  There needs to be something a bit less draconian.

If I were to have my wish (and I know that there is no chance in the world), airlines would be forced to offer something akin to UA economy plus, but with seats that are both modestly wider with modestly more legroom.  (Something between economy and  business class, but with none of the special services associated with business class.) This would not be an "obese" section, but open to anyone willing to pay for a modest upgrade.  Some people (unfortunately) would be have no choice but to pay for the moderate upgrade.


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## Carol C (Feb 18, 2010)

I wonder if airlines have booted Michael Moore from their flights. Or Academy Award nominee Gabourey Sidibe for that matter. Southwest and other discriminatory airlines might want to review their own policies for fairness. Seems to me if potential flying "missiles" like babies can sit in laps, then the plump passenger should get special dispensation too.


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## John Cummings (Feb 18, 2010)

"Roger" said:


> ...If I were to have my wish (and I know that there is no chance in the world), airlines would be forced to offer something akin to UA economy plus, but with seats that are both modestly wider with modestly more legroom.  (Something between economy and  business class, but with none of the special services associated with business class.) This would not be an "obese" section, but open to anyone willing to pay for a modest upgrade.  Some people (unfortunately) would be have no choice but to pay for the moderate upgrade.



I agree that it would be nice but there is a logistics problem. In order to make the seats any wider, they would probably have to reduce the number of seats per row. This would result in fewer tickets meaning less revenue unless the ticket price was increased substantially to make up for the missing seat(s).


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## "Roger" (Feb 18, 2010)

While certainly not nothing, I am not sure that the cost would be that substantial going (for example) from six across to five across, or, from eight across to seven.  Certainly this would be less than the full cost of a second seat (much less an upgrade to business class).

The bigger logistics problem (and this would be serious) would be how to make sure such a seat would be available for a late ticket buyer who absolutely needed such a seat.

Also, I realize that my proposal would not be popular with airlines in that, when they have tried such programs in the past, people have not been willing to pay.  But, then again, I don't see any proposal that will fully solve the dilemma that I outlined.


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## Stricky (Feb 18, 2010)

The only fair thing to do is to charge people based on their weight. Just like when we mail a package.

We need to set up some big scales at the check-in desk. You stand there with your luggage and you pay accordingly. My 4 yo with his backpack would pay less then me at 250lbs, my slim wife would pay more with her 300lbs of luggage.

There.... all fixed.


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## Rose Pink (Feb 18, 2010)

*Weight vs Width*

While charging by weight may seem fair (and I realize those posts may have been somewhat in jest) I don't see that as solving the problem as the seats are still the same size. If a 300 pound person pays more than a 100 pound person they should be assigned a bigger seat but airlines would have to build in bigger (ie wider) seats.

With more than half the US population being overweight, that is now the norm. Right or wrong, big is the new average. 

Rather than charging large people more, maybe a better approach would be to outfit planes with most seats being larger and at a higher cost to make up for the decrease in number of seats. Those would be the normal seating and the normal fare. Then offer smaller people a discount to sit in the limited number of smaller seats. You would have to qualify to sit in the small section. That might give frequent fliers an incentive to lose weight.   It could not be based solely on weight but on width as well.  How to do that?  Just like those containers that you can put your carry-on to see if it fits, airlines would have a door that people would have to walk through to see if they could sit in the small section.  If  you can't fit through the door (or posts or whatever), you have to pay full fare for the full seats.


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## Rose Pink (Feb 18, 2010)

BevL said:


> I can do you one better. Sat next to a guy who reeked, and insisted on putting on deodorant several times DURING THE FLIGHT IN HIS SEAT.
> 
> Then it was BO with a hint of manly aftershave smell. Plus the contortions of him trying to get his arms under his shirt. It still cracks me up remembering it. Whenever hubby and I are in row with someone we may not have chosen, a simple "wonder if he has deodorant in his carry on" will definitely lighten the moment.


Was it this guy? http://www.oldspice.com/


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## BevL (Feb 18, 2010)

Rose Pink said:


> Was it this guy? http://www.oldspice.com/



sheesh, I would not have been complaining if that guy was half taking off his shirt next to me!!


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## John Cummings (Feb 18, 2010)

Rose Pink said:


> While charging by weight may seem fair (and I realize those posts may have been somewhat in jest) I don't see that as solving the problem as the seats are still the same size. If a 300 pound person pays more than a 100 pound person they should be assigned a bigger seat but airlines would have to build in bigger (ie wider) seats.
> 
> With more than half the US population being overweight, that is now the norm. Right or wrong, big is the new average.
> 
> Rather than charging large people more, maybe a better approach would be to outfit planes with most seats being larger and at a higher cost to make up for the decrease in number of seats. Those would be the normal seating and the normal fare. Then offer smaller people a discount to sit in the limited number of smaller seats. You would have to qualify to sit in the small section. That might give frequent fliers an incentive to lose weight.   It could not be based solely on weight but on width as well.  How to do that?  Just like those containers that you can put your carry-on to see if it fits, airlines would have a door that people would have to walk through to see if they could sit in the small section.  If  you can't fit through the door (or posts or whatever), you have to pay full fare for the full seats.



I agree with this approach. Back in the late 70's and early 80's, I flew all over the US, Mexico, Venezuela, and Canada with my work. It was much more enjoyable because fares were regulated so the airlines had to compete on service. Now the airlines try to cram in as many people as possible with no service. The seats are narrower and less leg room yet the people are bigger.


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## amanven (Feb 19, 2010)

In the Sears Canada catalogue, if you purchase an item of clothing that is "plus size", it is generally a few $'s more than if you bought the same item in the regular size. The item uses more material and takes up more shipping room when it is sent to the stores so therefore it costs more.  No one has taken Sears Canada to court claiming that their pricing is discriminatory to people of size so why should the airlines be expected to provide a greater amount of their "product" (seat space...% of total allowable weight on the plane) for the same price.

Now just to stir the pot a little bit, I would be interested in people's opinion on this possible scenario.  If Kevin Smith had been on another airline say perhaps Spirit or Air Canada and there was one empty seat in the first class/Spirit Plus section (the extra wide leather seats), who should be moved to the wide seat?  Should Kevin Smith get it even though he didn't pay the extra $'s for it or should the person who would have to otherwise sit next to him and lose some of the room in the seat they paid for get the wide seat? Or should they both be stuck together and the first class seat stay empty?


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## TUGBrian (Feb 19, 2010)

amanven said:


> .  If Kevin Smith had been on another airline say perhaps Spirit or Air Canada and there was one empty seat in the first class/Spirit Plus section (the extra wide leather seats), who should be moved to the wide seat?  Should Kevin Smith get it even though he didn't pay the extra $'s for it or should the person who would have to otherwise sit next to him and lose some of the room in the seat they paid for get the wide seat? Or should they both be stuck together and the first class seat stay empty?



easy one handled like most airlines do now...whoever paid for the higher fare ticket gets the upgrade.


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## amanven (Feb 19, 2010)

TUGBrian said:


> easy one handled like most airlines do now...whoever paid for the higher fare ticket gets the upgrade.



But if they both paid the same regular coach fare then who is "entitled" to the upgrade?  Kevin Smith by virtue of his size or the other passenger due to the fact they are not getting the amount of seat space they paid for because Kevin is on board and seated next to them?


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## Rose Pink (Feb 19, 2010)

I don't think either is entitled to a first-class seat they did not pay for.  Whoever wants to pay the extra to move, could do so.  Or, whoever has the most points in their FF account.


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## amanven (Feb 19, 2010)

Rose Pink said:


> I don't think either is entitled to a first-class seat they did not pay for.  Whoever wants to pay the extra to move, could do so.  Or, whoever has the most points in their FF account.



So should Kevin Smith be expected to pay for the upgrade and move so the person who had to sit beside him can have the full amount of the coach seat space they paid for? 

I ask this because, Kevin Smith has every right to be on the plane, but does he have the right to take up some of the space that someone else paid for?  Someone, either Kevin Smith or the other passenger is going to have their "rights" impinged upon.  Who should it be (especially if neither is willing to or can pay more) ?


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## John Cummings (Feb 19, 2010)

amanven said:


> So should Kevin Smith be expected to pay for the upgrade and move so the person who had to sit beside him can have the full amount of the coach seat space they paid for?
> 
> I ask this because, Kevin Smith has every right to be on the plane, but does he have the right to take up some of the space that someone else paid for?  Someone, either Kevin Smith or the other passenger is going to have their "rights" impinged upon.  Who should it be (especially if neither is willing to or can pay more) ?



First of all there are no "rights" involved. What "right" does Kevin Smith have that would be impinged upon?

To me it is very obvious that Kevin Smith should be the one to pay for an upgrade and move. He is the one that doesn't fit in the seat. The passenger next to him should not bear any burden because Kevin Smith overflows into the adjacent seat.


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## Ken555 (Feb 20, 2010)

It's interesting to see how this thread has evolved in the last few days. Some of the posts criticize Kevin Smith's actions and behavior (with several apparently not knowing the facts); few seem to support him. And all are upset at the seating options available on commercial flights. 

I was on a 6 hr flight (on an AA 757 from Hawaii to LAX) last fall. I had an empty middle seat next to me until a minute before the door closed, and then a bunch of guys all boarded and took every last middle seat available. The one who sat in my row was large. He did not need a seat belt extension. The armrests were down. Just like Kevin Smith. Yet he was definitely in my space, as I could not sit comfortably and not touch him in the shoulders... so was leaning into the aisle the entire flight (and got hit several times...once painfully... by the drink cart).

Airlines don't really care of the comfort of their passengers. They don't care about their service quality. They care about profits. And if they can squeeze an extra buck out of a flight they will do so. 

I challenge you to travel in coach on any full American airline and rave about the seat, or service, or room. I strive to get to the airport early for long flights just to try to grab an emergency exit seat (I usually fail), and I used to fly at non-peak times to increase the odds of an undersold flight (and increase my chances of an empty seat next to me).

Keep in mind that many airlines are utilizing the smaller regional jets these days, which have significantly less room all around. Could you imagine sitting next to a large person on that plane? I doubt they'd fit. I'm on an Horizons prop flight next week and am already concerned about who will end up sitting next to me (at least that's only for 1.5 hours or so). Maybe some analyst should write a book on how to remain calm on a flight - not from fear of flying, or fear of terrorism...but fear of the other passengers bulk, attitude, smell, and habits (not to mention children). 

Some people seem to believe that they are due an extra seat because of their physical size. While I sympathize with those individuals, I can think that - like other commercial ventures - if a customer wants/needs more of the product, then they have to pay for it. Why should others be penalized - in comfort, space, or money - due to the size of other passengers? And why should these customers be entitled to any discount? That doesn't make sense - they need twice the space, after all.

I'm a firm believer of taking responsibility for yourself. In this instance that means paying for a second seat without any complaints. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, and I'm doubly sorry if this comes to be and you can't afford to fly. In addition to getting fat, America is overly indulgent and selfish. It's time to own up to the problems and solve them in a responsible manner. Like others have said, overweight people increase costs for others in many ways. 

It's time for America to shrink, even just a little bit. If you don't know your BMI, take a wild guess and then go here for more info.


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## Patri (Feb 20, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> In addition to getting fat, America is overly indulgent and selfish. It's time to own up to the problems and solve them in a responsible manner. Like others have said, overweight people increase costs for others in many ways.
> 
> It's time for America to shrink, even just a little bit. If you don't know your BMI, take a wild guess and then go here for more info.



I am so with you, even though it is not PC. I have too many friends, etc. who are obese and obviously content with that status. I watch what I eat and exercise. They do not. I am in the normal BMI range. My entire adult life I have been determined to stay that way.
Through the years I have just lost my tolerance for fat people, though I never say anything to them. We remain close friends or co-workers, but I see their lifestyle habits, and have lost respect for them.
And don't start with the metabolism or medication issues. Sure, a minority are affected by that, but not most people.


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## l2trade (Feb 20, 2010)

Patri said:


> I am so with you, even though it is not PC. I have too many friends, etc. who are obese and obviously content with that status. I watch what I eat and exercise. They do not. I am in the normal BMI range. My entire adult life I have been determined to stay that way.
> Through the years I have just lost my tolerance for fat people, though I never say anything to them. We remain close friends or co-workers, but I see their lifestyle habits, and have lost respect for them.
> And don't start with the metabolism or medication issues. Sure, a minority are affected by that, but not most people.



Ouch, that's taking it a bit too far, don't you think?  It's one thing to promote and encourage a healthy lifestyle.  But, lost tolerance & respect for all fat people?  Nobody is perfect and we all face different struggles with varying success during our journey through life. 

Anyways, I thought we were just talking about how to handle the large size versus small seat airline problem.  Fine, ok, charge for an extra seat or two.  As someone under 6ft and under 200lbs, I'd rather wish all of us had more legroom and the seats were wider.  IMHO, flying sucks nowadays - fat or not.


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## Ken555 (Feb 20, 2010)

l2trade said:


> Anyways, I thought we were just talking about how to handle the large size versus small seat airline problem.  Fine, ok, charge for an extra seat or two.  As someone under 6ft and under 200lbs, I'd rather wish all of us had more legroom and the seats were wider.  IMHO, flying sucks nowadays - fat or not.



The cause of the problem is obvious, and not including that in the discussion ignores the overall issue. Airline seat issues are simply an item that affects everyone who flies directly, while the other impacts are indirect and (have been) ignored by most people.

But I agree that flying is no fun at all. The AA "More Room" campaign was fantastic, while it lasted, but it's just a cattle car now (no pun intended). FWIW, I paid for the UA Economy Plus upgrade on my next flight recently, and gladly, for those few extra inches. I wish every airline offered a similar program. And yes, I agree with others that a wider seat would be worth more money, absolutely. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening - at an affordable rate - soon, as that would dilute the airline's perceived benefit of business/first. After all, most people who fly business/first do so for the seat and comfort, not the food or service.


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## ricoba (Feb 20, 2010)

These last few posts show just how easy it is for people to share their bias against fat folks, who are the last acceptable group left that it is OK to show public bias against....sad


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## Patri (Feb 20, 2010)

Yeah, I don't want to fan the flames. Sorry Denise.


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## DeniseM (Feb 20, 2010)

We have stepped over the line in this thread.  Stick to the specific news story, and  airlines, and avoid "contentious social issues" or this thread will be closed.



> Avoid posting about politics, religion, or *contentious social issues*
> Unless directly related to timesharing, such discussions are prohibited in these forums, including TUG Lounge. We've been down that road before, it was ugly, and we are not going there again.


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## Ken555 (Feb 20, 2010)

Sorry. I certainly didn't mean to insult anyone. 

I prefer to participate in frank open discussions where all perspectives are welcome, with the goal of making improvements for everyone.

So... let's move the thread back to ways the airlines might cope with this issue better.


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## DeniseM (Feb 20, 2010)

No worries!  This is a difficult subject to discuss without going over the line.  THANKS!


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## ricoba (Feb 20, 2010)

Thank you to my fellow Tuggers for providing a good sense of community and understanding, in spite of differences of opinion. 

I agree Denise, it's a difficult subject that unfortunately is probably not being appropriately addressed by airlines today.


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## John Cummings (Feb 20, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> Keep in mind that many airlines are utilizing the smaller regional jets these days, which have significantly less room all around. Could you imagine sitting next to a large person on that plane? I doubt they'd fit. I'm on an Horizons prop flight next week and am already concerned about who will end up sitting next to me (at least that's only for 1.5 hours or so).



I fly quite often from Southern California to Wichita Falls Texas. It is a 2:50 flight with American on a Boeing 757 to Dallas and then a 0:50 flight with American Eagle on a small turbo prop from Dallas to Wichita Falls. Though the Boeing 757 is much larger, their seats are much narrower and less leg room than on the turbo prop. Those last 50 minutes from Dallas to Wichita Falls are a lot more comfortable.


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## John Cummings (Feb 20, 2010)

l2trade said:


> IMHO, flying sucks nowadays - fat or not.



I am with you 100%.


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## Rose Pink (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't know how airlines are going to solve the problem. So many are going out of business or into bankruptcy. I don't think they are drowning in profits. The cost of retrofitting all of the planes with more spacious seating would be prohibitive and flyers complain so much about the prices anyway. Most of us look for the cheapest fare. We could be more comfortable if we paid for a first-class ticket, but we don't. We buy the cheapest and then complain.

Maybe they should stop feeding us peanuts and cocktails.  All those extra calories contribute to the problem.


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## John Cummings (Feb 21, 2010)

Rose Pink said:


> I don't know how airlines are going to solve the problem. So many are going out of business or into bankruptcy. I don't think they are drowning in profits. The cost of retrofitting all of the planes with more spacious seating would be prohibitive and flyers complain so much about the prices anyway. Most of us look for the cheapest fare. We could be more comfortable if we paid for a first-class ticket, but we don't. We buy the cheapest and then complain.
> 
> Maybe they should stop feeding us peanuts and cocktails.  All those extra calories contribute to the problem.



US airlines don't give you free cocktails in coach and many, like American, don't even give you peanuts anymore.


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## Rose Pink (Feb 21, 2010)

John Cummings said:


> US airlines don't give you free cocktails in coach and many, like American, don't even give you peanuts anymore.


I didn't say they were free--although I still get soft drinks and peanuts on SWA for nada.


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## John Cummings (Feb 22, 2010)

Rose Pink said:


> I didn't say they were free--although I still get soft drinks and peanuts on SWA for nada.



SWA is one airline that has not changed and still gives the peanuts. They also give free snacks on flights of 2+ hours.


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## Elli (Feb 22, 2010)

Alaska Airlines still gives free very small snack packages, pretzels or nuts, and free soft drinks.  As mentioned before, American Airlines only gives soft drinks and water, nothing else, even on a 6 hr flight.


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## camachinist (Feb 22, 2010)

John Cummings said:


> I fly quite often from Southern California to Wichita Falls Texas. It is a 2:50 flight with American on a Boeing 757 to Dallas and then a 0:50 flight with American Eagle on a small turbo prop from Dallas to Wichita Falls. Though the Boeing 757 is much larger, their seats are much narrower and less leg room than on the turbo prop. Those last 50 minutes from Dallas to Wichita Falls are a lot more comfortable.


Interesting that, even though the listed specs of the ATR-72 and B752 are nearly identical (ATR actually lists less legroom by an inch), the feeling in the turbroprop is more comfortable. I wonder if it is the sardine can effect of the B752, one of the largest narrow-body airliners, and that sensation of a crowd of people surrounding one in cramped quarters, including that added difference of middle seats on a B752, which causes the sensation.
I've flown three abreast in economy with similar sized men (to myself) and it is indeed an uncomfortable experience for a long flight. I tend to walk more on such flights or chat with FA's so as to relieve the row of some space useage.

IMO, if the POS (passenger of size) knows they have space issues in economy, they should either fly an airline/aircraft with larger economy space or purchase/upgrade into business or first, where there is more seat room. As WN is an all-economy airline, such a person has a choice of other airlines which might better meet their needs.

 I fly UA's common turboprop, the EM-120, a lot (will be on one tonight) and, as long as I can sit in row 9BC, I could fly it for hours. Row eight is so far away I can't reach my underseat bag with my feet, much less my hand. I don't even notice that the seats are the same width as a B752 (or most narrow-body jets). It's how it 'feels' 

Pat


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## John Cummings (Feb 22, 2010)

camachinist said:


> Interesting that, even though the listed specs of the ATR-72 and B752 are nearly identical (ATR actually lists less legroom by an inch), the feeling in the turbroprop is more comfortable. I wonder if it is the sardine can effect of the B752, one of the largest narrow-body airliners, and that sensation of a crowd of people surrounding one in cramped quarters, including that added difference of middle seats on a B752, which causes the sensation.
> I've flown three abreast in economy with similar sized men (to myself) and it is indeed an uncomfortable experience for a long flight. I tend to walk more on such flights or chat with FA's so as to relieve the row of some space useage.
> 
> IMO, if the POS (passenger of size) knows they have space issues in economy, they should either fly an airline/aircraft with larger economy space or purchase/upgrade into business or first, where there is more seat room. As WN is an all-economy airline, such a person has a choice of other airlines which might better meet their needs.
> ...



That was a B757 not B752. In any event it was the size of the seats and not the sardine effect. I always sit on an aisle seat. The seats on that American flight on the B757 is by far the most cramped I have ever seen anywhere. I will be making the trip again on the same flights in a couple weeks. I would fly on some other airline to Dallas except that AA is the only airline that flies to Wichita Falls, TX. Using another airline from ONT to DFW is a lot more expensive and inconvenient as adding the leg to Wichita Falls to an AA flight to DFW is much cheaper than booking that flight separately.


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## camachinist (Feb 22, 2010)

Sorry, by B752, I meant Boeing 757-200 subvariant, which is predomiently what AA flies. I've not flown any AA 752's, but have flown their MD-80 series a/c, and find the 2-3 seating to feel more open, especially in an aisle seat on the 2 side.


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## John Cummings (Feb 22, 2010)

camachinist said:


> Sorry, by B752, I meant Boeing 757-200 subvariant, which is predomiently what AA flies. I've not flown any AA 752's, but have flown their MD-80 series a/c, and find the 2-3 seating to feel more open, especially in an aisle seat on the 2 side.



I wanted to do a MD-80 instead of B757 but scheduling doesn't work out very well. I think our flight from LAX to Hawaii in April on AA is also on a B757.


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## Ken555 (Feb 22, 2010)

John Cummings said:


> I think our flight from LAX to Hawaii in April on AA is also on a B757.



That's all AA flies to Hawaii these days, other than perhaps one or two 767's to Honolulu. I was on AA 767 LAX-OGG a few years ago and then changed equipment to a 757 for the return. It turns out that was the week they changed the non-stops to OGG to 757's. UA still has 767's to OGG, though only 757's to LIH (at least from LAX).


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## Ken555 (Feb 22, 2010)

camachinist said:


> Sorry, by B752, I meant Boeing 757-200 subvariant, which is predomiently what AA flies. I've not flown any AA 752's, but have flown their MD-80 series a/c, and find the 2-3 seating to feel more open, especially in an aisle seat on the 2 side.



The 752's are what I consider typical uncomfortable coach seats. Somehow those are the planes I'm on often, either to Hawaii or to the east coast (many non-stop flights from LAX to non-hub destinations now use 737 or 757).

I'm glad to hear the positive comments about prop planes, though. I haven't been on one in years, but will in a few days on one of these. I do occasionally fly the small CRJ-700 jet and they feel quite small compared to 757 or any other larger plane. I was on one of these at JFK next to a 747 once, and that definitely put it in perspective (and wow, did I feel like a bug).


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## vacationlover2 (Feb 23, 2010)

[Please see the warning already posted in this thread. - DeniseM Moderator]


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## joestein (Feb 23, 2010)

I am a pretty big guy and the only non-stop flight that I can get on a large size plan (i.e.  at least 5 seats across) to the BRANSON,MO area is on Southwest (St. Louis).  

We sit next to our children who are very petite so, there is never an issue of another adult being inconvienced.  We usually take the middle and aisle seat of both sides of a row, with strangers sitting in the window seats at either end.  This has worked very well for us.   If I fly alone or it is just my wife and I, we will usually fly first class.

I can sit with the armrests down, though it is uncomfortable, but it seems that there is some question as to how this policy is applied.

I planned on taking the Southwest Flight to St. Louis from Philly because I don't see many other options for flights from my area (NJ).  I would buy the early boarding pass or whatever they call it so we would be one of the first to board and would get seating similar to what we get usually.  But the Kevin Smith thing has me concerned, I don't want to be asked to buy another seat or to be told I can't fly. 

Joe


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## Charlie D. (Feb 23, 2010)

Guys, this isn’t just an airlines issue. Try being a wide body, or better yet, three wide bodies, trying to sit together at an OU Sooners football game. My hips are about 18” and the numbers on the bleacher seats are about 13-14" apart. I found myself standing during timeouts when everyone else was sitting and sitting during play while everyone else was standing. Never again!! 

I went to a St. Louis Blues hockey game. Did a little wiggling and applied a considerable amount of down pressure, “plop”, I was in my seat. I reversed the motions to get out of my seat. I spent the last period trying to watch part of the game from the tunnels and getting chased from tunnel to tunnel by the ushers. Never again!!

I did not consider myself morbidly obese but was pretty fat. I have been able to lose quite a bit of weight in the past year and those seats may not be so bad now. The thing about is that I was uncomfortable and my guess is the people on either side of me were also. Tulsa is pretty kind to us wide bodies. Tulsa Hurricane stadium was rebuilt and the capacity was decreased several thousand by wider seating. The new double A baseball stadium being built has seating 1-2” wider than the old stadium. 

My personal thinking is that since I know my hips are 18” wide and my gut about as wide, if I knew the airline seat was lets say 15” wide, about 3” of me is going to be hanging over somewhere. Now if I were say 24-25” wide, I’d just go ahead and get me another seat. I do not think that the airline should allow me to sit in two seats for the price of one. Being a wide body has its draw backs and that would go down as one of them.

The last couple of years of my Naval Reserve career I was a fat boy. I was over the percent of body fat. I knew there were no more promotions in store so was just finishing out my 35 years. I was on my way to a training site on board an airliner and seated in my customary window seat when lo and behold two even wider bodied ladies set down in the seats next to me. We managed to get the arms of the seats down but they were very uncomfortable. After we took off I told the lady next to me that I was not trying to get too familiar with her but I thought it would be more comfortable if we recessed those arms up into the backs. She readily agreed and there we were, one mass of humanity just getting by until that plane landed. The life of a wide body can be challenging!!:whoopie: 

Charlie D.


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## Lex87 (Feb 24, 2010)

How embarrassing! I'm not a very big girl but the whole thing would kill me with shame. I am shocked Kevin even posted the ordeal?

My BF and I are planning a trip to Alabama and we were going with SW and the only decision left was picking one of these gulf shores hotels.

Now I'm going to re-consider the airline too I think!


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## Luanne (Feb 24, 2010)

Lex87 said:


> How embarrassing! I'm not a very big girl but the whole thing would kill me with shame. I am shocked Kevin even posted the ordeal?
> 
> My BF and I are planning a trip to Alabama and we were going with SW and the only decision left was picking one of these gulf shores hotels.
> 
> Now I'm going to re-consider the airline too I think!



SW is not the only airline with this policy.  And I've certainly seen "persons of size" fly them with no problem.  Since I wasn't there I have no idea what really happened with Kevin Smith and SW.


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## RDB (Feb 26, 2010)

Many years ago, I recall being in a restaurant and making comment to my son when a couple of obese ladies entered, "The doors should be a lot smaller. If you don't fit, you don't need in here."

At that time I was about 180#. Since then, I've gained 80# and take up more space. I still feel there should be restrictions and prices for accommodating BIG bodies on airlines. If you need a larger space, you should pay for larger.

On long flights Caroll and I opt for aisle and window seats. I get up often and Caroll likes to rest head on the wall and naps a lot.

When the center seat gets occupied, we swap around if convenient and/or for a better fit. Occasionally we luck out and have the seat vacant between us. 

I usually stand or walk the aisle as I have lower leg circulation problems. Caroll gets cramps in hips and/or legs also. She has to get up and at least twice in a 6 to 8 hour flight. The person in the middle seat always seems to welcome switching around during the flight.

When a BIG person occupies some of our space, I ask for the situation to be resolved.
Usually we get relocated. I have never experienced the BIG person having to move.

Robert


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