# HCC Stoweflake Resort in Stowe Vermont review



## PerryM (Sep 23, 2007)

We are in Stowe watching the leaves change – absolutely fantastic.  Bill asked me to drop by the HCC Stowe Vermont townhouse and here is my review: 

*Fantastic!*

The Stoweflake Resort  is a 3 1/2 Diamond AAA rated resort that from the road looks mediocre but inside is definitely 3.5 or 4 AAA Diamonds.

We dropped by and went up to the front desk and spoke with Stephanie-she didn't know me from Adam.  We mentioned HCC and she was aware of the unit and said it was occupied so we viewed a similar unit.  This kind lady spent an hour with us – first class treatment all the way.

The resort rambles on for many acres and is quite impressive.  The unit is a 3BR lockout so two families could be there at the same time.  Fireplace in the living room and master bedroom with the look of an $800k 2 story townhouse.

The resort is in the heart of Stowe and a free shuttle takes you to the mountain resort during the winter - 5 miles away.  You can easily walk to 20+ restaurants and dozens of small shops.

There is a heated outdoor pool (closed if less than 10 degrees F) and an indoor pool.  First class workout rooms all over the place, fireplaces around every corner and a real nice feeling to the whole place.

You can rent a 3BR townhouse for 1 week:


Christmas, New Years, Presidents week $11,000
Normal ski/summer week $7,000
Mud season week $3,500

Will sleep 10 folks.

I was very impressed with the place – there were folks polishing and dusting and doing things all the time.  I will post pictures when I get back on Thursday.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 23, 2007)

PerryM said:


> We are in Stowe watching the leaves change – absolutely fantastic.  Bill asked me to drop by the HCC Stowe Vermont townhouse :
> 
> You can rent a 3BR townhouse for 1 week:
> 
> [*]Christmas, New Years, Presidents week $11,000



Thanks Perry for the mini-review.

I am going there December 29-January 5th as I gave up my NYC (1600 Broadway reservation because my wife didn't want to be in the NYC rush).

Thus, joining HCC has saved me a TON of MONEY just from my two recent vacations.

1. Turks and Caicos rents for about $4,000 per summer week
2. Stoweflake rents for $11,000 for New Years week

Total price - $15,000 in rent (if I was NOT an HCC member) and that may require an additional sales tax.

My cost for HCC was about $300 per night x 14 nights = $4,900 (tax is not charged)

Thus, my 2007 savings is $10,100 just by joining HCC.


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## PerryM (Sep 23, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Thanks Perry for the mini-review.
> 
> I am going there December 29-January 5th as I gave up my NYC (1600 Broadway reservation because my wife didn't want to be in the NYC rush).
> 
> ...




Lucky Dog!  Reserving New Year's week - hmmm whom do you know?


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 23, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Lucky Dog!  Reserving New Year's week - hmmm whom do you know?



Any HCC member could have had it as it was available to everyone. I switched from NYC to Stowe about two weeks ago.


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## travelguy (Sep 24, 2007)

*HCC $100K Interior Fit-Out*



PerryM said:


> We mentioned HCC and she was aware of the unit and said it was occupied so we viewed a similar unit.



One thing to keep in mind is that HCC typically spends about $100K per property just for fit-out of the interior and furnishings.  It's too bad that you could not see the interior of the HCC property itself.  My experience of the HCC Aspen property is that the interior was way more luxurious than the surrounding units.


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## LTTravel (Sep 24, 2007)

travelguy said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that HCC typically spends about $100K per property just for fit-out of the interior and furnishings.  It's too bad that you could not see the interior of the HCC property itself.  My experience of the HCC Aspen property is that the interior was way more luxurious than the surrounding units.



You can tell this is true by looking at the HCC website and then looking at the Stoweflake website. The units at the Stoweflake website have fair-poor furnishings. The Tripadvisor comments state that the rooms are so-so. A friend of mine stayed at the HCC unit and by the photos at HCC, you can see that it is done up top notch (no pun intended)


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## PerryM (Sep 24, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> You can tell this is true by looking at the HCC website and then looking at the Stoweflake website. The units at the Stoweflake website have fair-poor furnishings. The Tripadvisor comments state that the rooms are so-so. A friend of mine stayed at the HCC unit and by the photos at HCC, you can see that it is done up top notch (no pun intended)



I'll post the pictures of the unit we toured on Thursday - compared to the HCC pictures on their web site there was very little difference.

Our unit had been in the rental pool 2 years and it looked and smelled like it was built yesterday - truly fantastic and 4 Diamonds.

The place just has a very "Homey" feel to it and the folks there are dressed in uniforms and act like servants on TV seem to act - stand at attention when you get near them, smile, and ask if they can help you.

For the front desk clerk to spend 1 hour with us was truly amazing and I didn't hint that we were interested in anything but seeing a unit for a few seconds.

The only negative I can think of is that the logoff 1BR does not have a washer/dryer and there are no facilities for them on the premises.  But I doubt this will be a problem for HCC folks since they won't be locking off the unit so I did not report this in my review.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 24, 2007)

Perry...perhaps it is time for you to reconsider joining HCC again...


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 24, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Any HCC member could have had it as it was available to everyone. I switched from NYC to Stowe about two weeks ago.



Seems like HCC has great flexibility and availability.  You switched from NYC to Stowe on a holiday week.


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## travelguy (Sep 24, 2007)

*HCC Holiday Availability*



GOLFNBEACH said:


> Seems like HCC has great flexibility and availability.  You switched from NYC to Stowe on a holiday week.



Here's a sampling of High Country Club property availability during some upcoming holidays:

*Thanksgiving *(property/weeks available):
Beach - 2
Europe - 2
Ski - 3

*Christmas*
Europe - 1
Ski - 1

*New Years*
Beach - 1
Europe - 2

*MLK Day*
Beach - 7
Europe - 2
City - 1
Ski - 8

*President's Day*
Beach - 5
Europe - 2
City - 1
Ski - 2

*Spring Break/Easter*
Beach - 18
Europe - 7
City - 3
Ski - 30 (Wow!)


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## PerryM (Sep 24, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Perry...perhaps it is time for you to reconsider joining HCC again...



If I had stumbled on them 2 weeks earlier than I initially did, I know I would be a member now.

But, that's water under the bridge.

I'll wait for further developments.  I am perfectly happy with our timeshares and will wait for either a $30k startup or a name-brand.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 24, 2007)

PerryM said:


> I will wait for either a $30k startup or a name-brand.



Here is the current HCC entry level membership:
HCC Associate
membership fee = $30,000 (80% refundable)
annual dues = $3,500
nights of use = 15
long term reservation = 1 week
long term holiday = 0
advanced reservations = 1 week (inside 90 days)

Remember this thread the YOU started on July 19, 2006?
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28527


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## PerryM (Sep 24, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Here is the current HCC entry level membership:
> HCC Associate
> membership fee = $30,000 (80% refundable)
> annual dues = $3,500
> ...



That's not the level I want to use - 45 days of vacation is what we use each year.  At that level the membership fee is $60k - way beyond my comfort level if HCC bites the dust.  I also want 2 holiday weeks per year since we get together with our son then.

Unfortunately, HCC just doesn't meet my criteria anymore.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 24, 2007)

PerryM said:


> That's not the level I want to use - 45 days of vacation is what we use each year.  At that level the membership fee is $60k - way beyond my comfort level if HCC bites the dust.  I also want 2 holiday weeks per year since we get together with our son then.



Perry...I love your posts...but your wish is not realistic.

A $30,000 buy-in for a 45 night Destination Club membership with 2 weeks of holiday use will probably never materialize....if it does, please e-mail me so I can join immediately after you do!


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## PerryM (Sep 24, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Perry...I love your posts...but your wish is not realistic.
> 
> A $30,000 buy-in for a 45 night Destination Club membership with 2 weeks of holiday use will probably never materialize....if it does, please e-mail me so I can join immediately after you do!



This is with the risk now associated with current DCs.

Show me some protection of my unsecured loan (membership fee) and I can raise that rate.

My current view is that ALL of the membership fee I pay now is lost - that $30k is a goner.  If HCC or someone else were to give me some assurances that I stand a very good chance of getting the money back (80% of it) then I can raise that membership fee.  This also means that the 3 in/1 out is gone too.  I see no reason why memberships can't be sold on the free market - that would make me much more inclined to take the plunge.

Just why does the DC industry disallow resales?  The only reason I can think of is just more greed.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 24, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Just why does the DC industry disallow resales?  The only reason I can think of is just more greed.



MOST golf and health clubs do not allow club membership resales. 

It is more control of membership than greed...but the instant 20% profit is a nice feature if you own a DC.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 24, 2007)

DHH's transfer method is basically equivalent to reselling.


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 24, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> MOST golf and health clubs do not allow club membership resales.
> 
> It is more control of membership than greed...but the instant 20% profit is a nice feature if you own a DC.



Good point, but I don't see many DC's that are controlling membership.  Basically you pay the money and you're in.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 24, 2007)

yellowstone club world requires yellowstone club membership (full ownership property purchase)

if talking to the founder is part of the due dilligence process, that suggests the club may sometimes exercise their "invitation only" status. plus id have to imagine even if there was no termination clause, it would be VERY easy for a club to have members terminated for things like significant property damage, criminal offenses, etc during a stay.

also clubs with caps are clearly somewhat selective.

lusso discusses their selection fairly in depth on their site - for example limits by demographic, like families with school age children, and by geographic region.

thats another statistic id love to have for each club (in addition to number of resignations) - how many if any prospective members have been turned down, for nonfinancial reasons. and also for that matter what financial requirements there might be, in terms of assets/income/etc.


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## vineyarder (Sep 25, 2007)

> My current view is that ALL of the membership fee I pay now is lost - that $30k is a goner. If HCC or someone else were to give me some assurances that I stand a very good chance of getting the money back (80% of it) then I can raise that membership fee.



Funny - that's how I look at the purchase price on my Four Seasons timeshare (or is it a 1/52 fractional?)... Money down the drain, with an ongoing obligation to pony up maintainance fees to boot...


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## PerryM (Sep 25, 2007)

*I could not enjoy vacation with these numbers...*



vineyarder said:


> Funny - that's how I look at the purchase price on my Four Seasons timeshare (or is it a 1/52 fractional?)... Money down the drain, with an ongoing obligation to pony up maintainance fees to boot...



Well there is a VERY important distinction between a DC and a Fractional - the fractional has a deed that indicates ownership and has a semi-liquid market.  Just get a real estate broker and list it on the MLS and you will get interest.  There could be historical sales available and/or comps of similar fractionals - there could be plenty of data to indicate that a sale will occur and a ballpark figure.

A DC has a closed system where you have NO ability to sell your unit on a free market - the "market" is 80% of the initial price if the DC can find more members to replace you.

I guess one could get into probabilities of a DC returning your money but I just don't know how to do that.


*In the case of HCC with a 10 year Buy-Hold-Sell cycle:*

$60,000 to get in
 10 years of $10,500 (Average of 10 years with 5% increase per year) = $100,500
Total=$160,500 for 20 vacations (2 long term per year)

Cost per week = $8,025 per week.

If you want to throw in the lost opportunity on that $60k = $30k more (5% per year)

Cost per week = $9,525 per week.

This to me is something I would not enjoy on vacation - but that's just me.

P.S.
I understand that I do have access to 45 days, of which, only 14 are long term in nature.  I only have ONE holiday vacation and we mainly vacation on the holidays.  The 31 extra days are pot luck and I don't know how to account for them.  I'm sure I'd use some of them somehow.

P.P.S.
Even if I account for the 80% return of the deposit, or $48,000, the cost still is $7,125 per reserved week with some fillers thrown in.

Right now I average about $1,200 per person per vacation and that includes airfare; Maui is $2k per week per person.  For me to pay 3 to 4 times as much and get maybe 1 AAA Diamond better is hard to justify - at least to me.


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## saluki (Sep 25, 2007)

*As we further guide this thread off-topic...*

Perry-

Seems rather misguided to calculate a cost-per-night based on using 14 nights of a 45 night membership. That's some seriously fuzzy math.


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## PerryM (Sep 25, 2007)

*How?????*



saluki said:


> Perry-
> 
> Seems rather misguided to calculate a cost-per-night based on using 14 nights of a 45 night membership. That's some seriously fuzzy math.



Ok, how do I account for the 31 nights I have pot luck to?

I'm open to suggestions.  Do I put probabilities to work here?  E.g. what is the probability of getting to a HCC resort 60 days from today?

Since I don't know how to do this I can only use the 14 days I can reserve for sure and of those only 7 are holiday - I now take at least 21 days of holiday vacations with timeshares.

To me HCC (and all DCs) seems to be a step backwards in usage and costs.

One of the reasons I'm not a DC member yet.


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 25, 2007)

PerryM said:


> I'm open to suggestions.  .



Why not focus on DCs that have 14 day plans and holiday availability?


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 25, 2007)

saluki said:


> Perry-
> 
> Seems rather misguided to calculate a cost-per-night based on using 14 nights of a 45 night membership. That's some seriously fuzzy math.



Ok Perry is in rare form today. I usually agree with most of his math, but that last example is so far off base (in my own mine) that I don’t know how to even post a plausible difference of opinion.


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## vineyarder (Sep 25, 2007)

> Why not focus on DCs that have 14 day plans and holiday availability?



Or why not just agree that DCs aren't for everyone, and clearly PerryM is one of those for whom DCs aren't a good fit?  As Bill pointed out earlier, the terms under which Perry will join a DC simply aren't realistic at this point; sort of like saying "Bentley's are way overpriced, but as soon as they start selling them for $25K, I'm in... and I'm sure lots of others would buy at $25K as well, so I'm sure that the market will adjust and they will start selling Bentleys for $25K... and then Honda will go out of business."


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 25, 2007)

perry,

DHH >


nick@ihug.co.nz said:


> 5. You can find someone to take your place , not your membership , you are refunded the 80 % , and they pay what you were refunded to join, they can also take over any bookings you had in the system at the time. However they are on a new membership , and yours is canceled. Eg say in 10 years a 4 week membership is $400,000 and you wanted to leave and were owed 80,000 back ( 80 % of 100,000 ) you could invite a friend to take your place , they would pay $80,000 and you would get back your $80,000. Now your friend if he had have joined of the street, just his non refundable part would have been $80,000. You have saved him a bunch of money , while he would still only get $80,000 back when he leaves ....you would no doubt have a discussion about what it was worth for him to save all that money ....



also, if you dont pay for RC hotel stays or fractional ownership now, why would you pay for a DC product, especially if they would have no need to do anything more than 80% refund? (kind of related to vineyarder's point)


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## PerryM (Sep 25, 2007)

*I'm confused too....*



Steamboat Bill said:


> Ok Perry is in rare form today. I usually agree with most of his math, but that last example is so far off base (in my own mine) that I don’t know how to even post a plausible difference of opinion.



Since I've not actually pulled the trigger to buy a DC, I've never given much thought to the cost per night (vacation).

If our vacation needs are 21 days of prime time usage (like this week in Stowe Vermont) how do I use a DC that allows only 7 days of holiday/prime usage?

Also, how do I make plans a year in advance?

Now maybe DC folks are much shorter oriented due to their hectic schedules and 90 days out is all they can plan in the first place.

But I know our son's college schedule 2 years in advance and know we snowboard week 51/52 and we seem to vacation on holiday weeks, a DC seems to be a poor match for our vacation lifestyle.

This sounds crazy but it's a part of the overall reason we are not DC members now.

When we retire this will change and maybe a DC will allow us to use the 90+ day planning windows to use all of the usage.

Additionally, the frugal side of me would want to use 45 days if 45 days is what I'm entitled to.  But the 31 days of short term usage seems to be scraps that go against the reason DC's exist - first class vacations.

P.S.
If HCC is going after the high end timeshare owner they seem to be a mismatch to me.


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## LTTravel (Sep 25, 2007)

PerryM said:


> But the 31 days of short term usage seems to be scraps that go against the reason DC's exist - first class vacations.
> 
> .



Stowe, Telluride, Rosemary Beach and Tuscany were available for Christmas, <90 days out. Hilton Head, Rosemary Beach, Puerto Vallarta, Play del Carmen, Waikoloa, Maui, Tuscany, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Copper Mountain, Keystone, Mammoth, Deer Valley, Snowmass, Steamboat Springs, Telluride, Stowe and Winter Park have availability in December. Hardly scraps in the 90 day window. There is still plenty of availability for President's week and I am sure several of those will still be available in the 90 day window. If you call up HCC they will give you a limited username and password to be able to check availability and see for yourself. That is what I did.


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## LTTravel (Sep 25, 2007)

PerryM said:


> When we retire this will change and maybe a DC will allow us to use the 90+ day planning windows to use all of the usage.



No need to wait till you retire. UR has plans where the space available window is 180 days.


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## PerryM (Sep 25, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> Stowe, Telluride, Rosemary Beach and Tuscany were available for Christmas, <90 days out. Hilton Head, Rosemary Beach, Puerto Vallarta, Play del Carmen, Waikoloa, Maui, Tuscany, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Copper Mountain, Keystone, Mammoth, Deer Valley, Snowmass, Steamboat Springs, Telluride, Stowe and Winter Park have availability in December. Hardly scraps in the 90 day window. There is still plenty of availability for President's week and I am sure several of those will still be available in the 90 day window. If you call up HCC they will give you a limited username and password to be able to check availability and see for yourself. That is what I did.



I might do that; thanks.

But when do folks go on vacation in HCC (and all other DC's)?  Don't they go when the kids are out of school?

For ski/snowboard folks its week 51 or 52 and maybe a week in March for spring break.

For the beach its the summer weeks and the above weeks.

Aren't the HCC folks going on vacation then?

Now at $400k+ maybe the folks are in their golden years and don't want to go when the mobs are at the resorts.


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## vivalour (Sep 25, 2007)

PerryM said:


> I guess one could get into probabilities of a DC returning your money but I just don't know how to do that.
> 
> 
> Since this is about VACATIONS, not the survival of humanity, I don't know how much mental energy such decisions need.   Just to lighten things up-- I have a close friend who has a PhD in probability theory and works as a statistician for the gov't.   She is a whiz at math but it never seems to work in everyday life -- e.g. she and her husband, an engineer, lost piles of money in bad investments... The moral for me is you can't control many things in life & business, just take a path that lets you sleep well most nights.


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## PerryM (Sep 25, 2007)

vivalour said:


> I guess one could get into probabilities of a DC returning your money but I just don't know how to do that.
> 
> 
> Since this is about VACATIONS, not the survival of humanity, I don't know how much mental energy such decisions need.   Just to lighten things up-- I have a close friend who has a PhD in probability theory and works as a statistician for the gov't.   She is a whiz at math but it never seems to work in everyday life -- e.g. she and her husband, an engineer, lost piles of money in bad investments... The moral for me is you can't control many things in life & business, just take a path that lets you sleep well most nights.




This is our chance to bring order to chaos!

This is a very good example of uncertainty; how to arrive at a cost per night.

I doubt that we would use 45 days and since you can't rent DC's to the public then any unused go wasted unless you can roll forward the usage to next year.

If I have 45 days of usage and 7 are long term holiday reservations and 7 are long term reservations then those are a high probably usage.  I have all the skills needed to call up, to the second, and book something that we really want.

The remaining 31 days is a mystery to me and we must guess or use stats supplied by the DC.  If HCC said that 75% of members got a satisfactory reservation then 31 * 75% = 23 days that can be used to reduce the cost per day.

Maybe some stats exist somewhere.


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## LTTravel (Sep 25, 2007)

PerryM said:


> I might do that; thanks.
> 
> But when do folks go on vacation in HCC (and all other DC's)?  Don't they go when the kids are out of school?
> 
> ...



That's the whole point of getting only one advanced holiday week per year. Christmas, New Years, MLK, Presidents, 4 weeks Spring Break, Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving are all holidays. 30 properties x 12 weeks is 360 holiday weeks. Summer, depending on when the kids are out of school or back in school can span from the end of May to after Labor Day, or 13 weeks-2 holidays or 330 more weeks available. So there are about 690 "Prime children vacation weeks" spread out over probably 240 full member equivalents. So there is still left over weeks. Members may prefer to travel to the warm destinations in January, without there kids (if they have them) or just prefer to vacation in January to avoid the crowds. This year many schools have off at the end of April for Passover, the availabilty then is phenomenal and it is not considered a holiday week (Spring break is usually considered the last two weeks of March and the first two weeks of April. Passover Holiday this year is April 19-27). So if you get a full membership, you can easily get 3 weeks during prime school vacation time (say one holiday and two in the summer) and then use your other weeks for times when the kids may be in school and go with your friends or grab a holiday that has not been used yet, which occurs quite often in the 90 day window. Better than that, buy a corporate membership (only $10,000 more to join) and have your friends take a week or two away from you. You can't sell the weeks, but noone says that your friends can't pay you back somehow(Like pay for your lift tickets- ).


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## LTTravel (Sep 25, 2007)

PerryM said:


> If I have 45 days of usage and 7 are long term holiday reservations and 7 are long term reservations then those are a high probably usage.  I have all the skills needed to call up, to the second, and book something that we really want.
> 
> .



With a full membership you get one holiday week and two long term reservations, so 21 days may be booked up to one year in advance.


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## PerryM (Sep 25, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> With a full membership you get one holiday week and two long term reservations, so 21 days may be booked up to one year in advance.



Oh, sorry, I thought the 2 weeks included a holiday week - my mistake.

Just got this from VRBO - fantastic residence at Park City - $1,200 per night during holiday weeks.  I'll redo the numbers and post a new price recap later.

What if VRBO got into the DC industry?  NO big up front cost just a club where they know the prime units and you give them your vacation schedule and they return 25+ options.


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## LTTravel (Sep 25, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Just got this from VRBO - fantastic residence at Park City - $1,200 per night during holiday weeks.  I'll redo the numbers and post a new price recap later.
> 
> What if VRBO got into the DC industry?  NO big up front cost just a club where they know the prime units and you give them your vacation schedule and they return 25+ options.




$8400/wk, uncertain quality of home, not ski in ski out, no concierge, no $1000 pre-arrival groceries(DHH only), no vehicle on site, no Luxury SUV, no airport transfers, no daily maid services. wouldn't you rather stay in say the Lusso home in Deer Valley(Both ski in ski out, excellent residences) or the DHH home in Beaver Creek(not ski in ski out, but 6 bedrooms, 7000 sq ft.)


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## PerryM (Sep 25, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> $8400/wk, uncertain quality of home, not ski in ski out, no concierge, no $1000 pre-arrival groceries(DHH only), no vehicle on site, no Luxury SUV, no airport transfers, no daily maid services. wouldn't you rather stay in say the Lusso home in Deer Valley(Both ski in ski out, excellent residences) or the DHH home in Beaver Creek(not ski in ski out, but 6 bedrooms, 7000 sq ft.)




Sure, I'd rather stay at the White House too.  But with VRBO there is NO huge membership fee with all the worrying about if it will be returned.

Like I said, VRBO could easily start a DC club where they do review the units and only work with the best units and owners.  They could easily negotiate prices and take out 25% for commission.

Just trying to ground the DC industry back to reality - there are plenty of options available.

No matter how you slice and dice it the vacation still boils down to money and risk.


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## PerryM (Sep 25, 2007)

*Hmmmmmmmm*

HCC evaluation.

This is how I would arrive at the figures – I don’t pretend to speak for anyone else.

Buy in $60,000 and sell 80% 10 years later for $30,000 (net present value with 5% inflation) with a 50% probably of getting my money back or $15,000

10 years of an average $10,500 MF (5% inflation) = $105,000 in MF

Total cost = $150,000

Get 10 holiday weeks and 20 long term reservations.

Assume that out of the remaining 24 days we would get half of that in quality reservations we really want to use or 18 weeks.

$150,000/48=$3,125 per week.

I’m assuming that $7,000 per week is what the DC would rent for.

This is leveraging my money by 100%.  

This is a much better picture than I had originally proposed.

Hmmmmmmmm.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 25, 2007)

PerryM said:


> What if VRBO got into the DC industry?  NO big up front cost just a club where they know the prime units and you give them your vacation schedule and they return 25+ options.



Now you are talking!!!

This is a great idea.


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## travelguy (Sep 25, 2007)

*And now ... a quick history of TUG and DC posts!*

Since we're totally off topic, for those of you who are semi-new to the TUG discussions on Destination Clubs, here are some items you can look-up on the older threads:

1. Believe it or not, PerryM was one of the first, if not THE first, proponent of Destination Clubs on TUG.

2. PerryM and his TUG posts are one of the major reasons that Steamboat Bill and I became aware of, and eventually became members of, High Country Club.  Probably many others have become DC members because of Perry.

3. Somewhere along the line Perry did a total reverse on his opinion of Destination Clubs (Perry will be happy to tell you when and why) and has been THE voice of dissent ever since.

WARNING - The following statements are my opinions based upon many on-line dialogs with PerryM.

4. (Opinion) Perry has given us many examples of his low tolerance to risk in his previous posts about investing, legal retainers, credit card tracking, etc.  I have previously stated several times that a DC will never be right for Perry because of that very low risk tolerance.

5. (Opinion) My experience is that you will never win a debate with Perry.  He is very skilled at on-line posting and has the time to post his opinions as a whole.  When if comes to changing the debate and disorientating his opponent, he makes Sun-Tzu seem like an amateur!  A great example of of this was his postings and reactions about his purchase of a timeshare from the developer at Planet Hollywood. (FWIW, I believe he was treated unfairly by the response of many posters on that thread).

Having said that, I have great respect for Perry as he's obviously knowledgeable and ALWAYS willing to express his opinions.  My understanding is that he has experience purchasing timeshares both from developers and resale and on boats and land.  This input serves to make us all THINK about the debate.

Just thought this would help to frame some of the posts and "fuzzy math".

P.S. - Thanks Perry, for the intro to High Country Club!  One of the best decisions I ever made was to become a HCC member.


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## travelguy (Sep 25, 2007)

*45 Days in Paradise!*

I'm a HCC Private member with 45 days of use PLUS unlimited last-minute use.  I have NO trouble making the reservations I want.

On the topic of skiing (shredding) when the kids are out of school, I booked the HCC Breckenridge "Lodge" (5,000 s.f, 5 acres, $2-3M) last year during Spring Break.  I booked this at 60 days out with no problem.  I see availability like this for all Holidays except New Years, which is always hard to get.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 25, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Buy in $60,000 and sell 80% 10 years later for $30,000 (net present value with 5% inflation) with a 50% probably of getting my money back or $15,000
> 
> 10 years of an average $10,500 MF (5% inflation) = $105,000 in MF
> 
> ...



Perry....I see you are starting to come around!

Your calculations are "for you" and are based upon "your travel" patterns.

Even throwing away "many weeks", your cost per night is still $446 per night to stay in $1m properties. This represents "todays dollars" and $446 in 10 years, you won't be able to rent anything of quality for that price.

My calculations "for me" and my HCC travel patterns come out to around $300-350 per night.


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## travelguy (Sep 25, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> My calculations "for me" and my HCC travel patterns come out to around $325 per night.



Bill,

If you upgraded to HCC Private membership, your Cost-Per-Night would be down in the $200s!


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## PerryM (Sep 25, 2007)

*Confused in Vermont...*

If I had to sum up my opinion on DC's it would be "Confused".

On the one hand I love the concept and on the other I can envision the DC industry imploding.

What to do?

I reevaluate DCs on a frequent basis and so far have not pulled the trigger.  What will get me to change my mind?

I really don't know.  Since we have been looking at DC's we have purchased a single timeshare week far in excess of HCC's membership fee.  So my gut feeling is that I need more data, experiences, or just outside influences to make the decision for me - like a Trump or VRBO or someone entering the field to offer either the ultimate in DCs with a name brand or the lowest of risk exposure.  The middle ground could be cannon fodder.

So those of you looking for guidance as to purchasing a DC will have to look elsewhere until I feel more confident with the subject.

P.S.
I've not signed a NDA with HCC, do they know the average rental rates for all their units?

This would be wonderful information.  If the average during Holiday Weeks is $7,000 and the average for normal demand is $4,000 and the average for mud season is $2,000 that would be great information to base costs against.

P.S.
Thanks Doug!


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## LTTravel (Sep 25, 2007)

travelguy said:


> Bill,
> 
> If you upgraded to HCC Private membership, your Cost-Per-Night would be down in the $200s!



Perry

1. If you had joined HCC when you first mentioned it, you would have been able to joined for a lower fee and you would have probably been able to join as a charter "equity" member, getting 80% of current price on resigning
2. If you really don't think that you can use all your weeks, strongly consider the Corporate membership. That way you can give away your other weeks and make great friends and they will be able to return a favor another way. Only $10,000 more, slightly higher yearly dues and limited to 42 days per year, but the ability to have friends, clients, associates, family, etc to go in your place is more than worth the extra, especially if you feel that you cannot use all the days. You will be rewarded in mulitples for those weeks you give away. You could even donate a week to charity for an auction, give it your siblings, in-laws, etc. (It may be worth it to get rid of in-laws for a week in some instances)


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## vivalour (Sep 25, 2007)

PerryM said:


> If I had to sum up my opinion on DC's it would be "Confused".
> 
> On the one hand I love the concept and on the other I can envision the DC industry imploding.
> 
> ...



Not worth all this torment, IMHO!  Maybe do a reality check with a close friend or spouse???  

Speaking for myself -- I used to analyze things to death and now go with  a certain amount of analysis and then my gut feeling rather than analyzing away every opportunity....  In my case, it brought lots of adventures, a great husband, a terrific kid, a nice house, etc., etc. Every single one first looked like a tremendous risk to my happy, free-as-a-bird, financially secure life when I was single.

But hey, in the case of vacations ---  you pays your money (or not) and takes your choice....  Not really THAT important. 

To us, right now, the PE Premier preview looks like minimal risk for a year or so. If it starts to smell foul for some reason, we pull out our $50,000 (100% of deposit) and renovate the kitchen. :whoopie:


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 25, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> That's the whole point of getting only one advanced holiday week per year. Christmas, New Years, MLK, Presidents, 4 weeks Spring Break, Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving are all holidays.



IMO all the designated holiday weeks are the main drawback of HCC.  The other issue I have is the Sat. to Sat. requirement and 7 night minimum.  These restrictions make airline reservations more difficult, and would drive up the average cost per night.  

I wish HCC had the reservation flexibility of PE.  OTOH, HCC is much less expensive.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 25, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> IMO all the designated holiday weeks are the main drawback of HCC.  The other issue I have is the Sat. to Sat. requirement and 7 night minimum.  These restrictions make airline reservations more difficult, and would drive up the average cost per night.
> 
> I wish HCC had the reservation flexibility of PE.  OTOH, HCC is much less expensive.



This is interesting as I own DVC timeshare (points use and very flexible with size and locations) and also a Marriott timeshare (weeks use, not so flexible).

Perhaps the perfect DC is a blend of owning two.....HCC and PE!


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 25, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Perhaps the perfect DC is a blend of owning two.....HCC and PE!



Yes, if only I had the time and money to travel that much...


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## vineyarder (Sep 26, 2007)

> Perhaps the perfect DC is a blend of owning two.....HCC and PE!



Gee, I wish I had thought of that!   And it looks like puffpuff has also come to that conclusion (HCC + UR)...  Bill - are you still thinking about taking the plunge and becoming a dual-DCer?  If so, might want to consider this before the merger... In order to align their offerings more closely with UR, PE is now offering upside on the refund policy via an 80% of then current pricing... and with a price increase of 20 - 30% after the merger, you could be showing a paper profit in just a few months!


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## PerryM (Sep 28, 2007)

*HCC Stowe Pictures*

Here are the pictures of the HCC unit.

If you are not a member of SnapFish you will have to take 30 seconds and set up an account (No CC needed) to view.

Remember, this is NOT the actual unit but the layout is the same, the HCC has leather everything instead of cloth.


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 28, 2007)

registration required? or am i missing the main link?


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## PerryM (Sep 28, 2007)

Kagehitokiri said:


> registration required? or am i missing the main link?



Yes, it takes 30 seconds.


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## TUGBrian (Sep 29, 2007)

hopefully you submitted a TUG review for this...looks nice!  =)


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## pwrshift (Jun 5, 2008)

Is there a section of TUG reviews for Destination Clubs?  if so, where?

Brian


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