# Need Advice regarding a somewhat delicate dilemma



## Silverfox10 (Sep 2, 2007)

Hi, all.......

I am writing in the hope of obtaining some guidance regarding a somewhat sticky situation.  

Last March, a long-time friend informed me that she had to use her timeshare before the end of August, and suggested that we use it in the summer when she is not working as a school teacher.  I agreed, and after considering a few options, we settled on Cancun.  At the time, I told her that I would prefer to go right after school closed, but she said it had to be in August because she had other plans for July.  I didn't have any problems with this because I have a flexible schedule.  She then contacted her timeshare company and booked the trip for seven days beginning on August 17th.  As to costs, we had agreed that her maintenance costs and fee for switching units would be split evenly.     

Well, the night before our scheduled flight, we learned of hurricane Dean which was on a projected path identical to the last two that hit Cancun.  As such, we had little choice but to cancel.  

Subsequently, we talked about re-booking and it was at this time that she told me that she wasn't applying the monies I gave her to any re-booking.  Her explanation was that the timeshare had to be used by the end of August, and because it wasn't, I lost my share.   

This came as a complete shock to me, and when I asked her for an explanation, she said that I "bought" a half interest in her timeshare, and therefore had to use it by the end of August.  In this regard, it should be noted that when she invited me to go along on a vacation, there was no discussion of a sale or purchase of an interest in her timeshare, and as such, I never agreed to such an arrangement.  I have told her that I went solely as a paying guest and would never have agreed to an arrangement that exposed me to risk, particularly when the trip was booked so close to the end of her year.  In sum, I can't be held liable for conditions that were never discussed or agreed upon.  

Needless to say, this issue has strained a long-standing friendship, and I am seeking some help and advice, particularly with regard to the nature of the agreement she thought we had.  It doesn't make any sense to me that a timeshare owner would negotiate such an arrangement, because the value of the timeshare would have to be reduced to account for the risk factor.  For example, if an owner reserves a unit first month of one's ear, there is much time to re-book in the event of a cancellation, but if the reservation is in the last week, no such flexibility exists and the value would be reduced correspondingly.  

Any advice you care to offer will be appreciated, and to anyone kind enough to offer such advice, please accept my thanks in advance

Ken


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## brucecz (Sep 2, 2007)

Sorry to hear of your situation.  

Was there any type of written agreement that spelled out the usage terms and limitataions and clearly stated this was purely a rental?

If there isn't any written agreement  that clearly states terms and obilgations that helped to to protect both parties interests  then there is not to much you can do. Hopefully you did not pay a lot of money.

If you paid by check did you write rental in the notation area that it was a rental?  Or did you pay by charge card  so maybe you can dispute it.

Thats why I have detailed rental agreements in order to avoid these type of   situations.

Bruce


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## johnmfaeth (Sep 2, 2007)

It sounds like she had a use it or lose it situation which ended with August.

See offered to split the costs for you to use it. If you want protection when renting a timeshare or even a house or condo, there are travel insurance packages you can buy from third parties. Why should she take the entire loss of the maintenance fees, she's not a mamouth hotel operator, nor a travel insurance company.

My feeling is that if you agreed to go to Cancun in the height of hurricane season, you have some contributory negligence for not raising the topic.

From another angle, if a few dollars worth a long term friendship?

I would let it go, friends are too valuable to lose due to financial misunderstandings.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 2, 2007)

Bruce, 

Because we are close friends, everything was verbal.  As to recovery, I am cautiously confident that she will return my money once she understands that there was no agreement to "purchase" a half interest.  However, I am at a loss to understand why anyone would treat the cost of sharing a timeshare in any way other than a sublet agreement.  That's one of the reasons I am looking for some guidance.  What bothers me is that the notion of a "purchase" agreement may be something that was concocted to justify keeping the money, and since I am quite ignorant of timeshare practices, I thought it best to ask the members of this group for their views.   

Thanks for taking the time to share your views, Bruce.  

Ken


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## brucecz (Sep 2, 2007)

Thanks for the nice repy.  I hope things work out for the best for both parties.

Bruce  


Silverfox10 said:


> Bruce,
> 
> Because we are close friends, everything was verbal.  As to recovery, I am cautiously confident that she will return my money once she understands that there was no agreement to "purchase" a half interest.  However, I am at a loss to understand why anyone would treat the cost of sharing a timeshare in any way other than a sublet agreement.  That's one of the reasons I am looking for some guidance.  What bothers me is that the notion of a "purchase" agreement may be something that was concocted to justify keeping the money, and since I am quite ignorant of timeshare practices, I thought it best to ask the members of this group for their views.
> 
> ...


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 3, 2007)

*Advice appreciated*



johnmfaeth said:


> It sounds like she had a use it or lose it situation which ended with August.
> 
> See offered to split the costs for you to use it. If you want protection when renting a timeshare or even a house or condo, there are travel insurance packages you can buy from third parties. Why should she take the entire loss of the maintenance fees, she's not a mamouth hotel operator, nor a travel insurance company.
> 
> ...



John,  

You are right.  She was going to lose it if she didn't use it by the end of August.   

Trust me....I have agonized over this matter for a number of days now, and would willingly share any losses that my friend sustained as a result of this incident.  But in this case, my friend appears to be trying to realize a gain, at the expense of someone who is a longstanding close friend.  Here's why....

Anyone who owns real estate has associated carrying costs that are incurred whether or not we use the property.  In this case, my friend's costs are about $800.00 per year.  Now if we got to use the timeshare, she would have reduced her costs by $400.00 and I would have gained the shared use of the timeshare.  This didn't happen, yet she still wants to reduce her annual costs by $400.00 and leave me with an actual loss equal to this amount.  This is something that I am having difficulty with, particularly since we are close friends.  

Because of this friendship, I am hopeful that we will resolve it successfully but to do that, I need a better understanding of the customs and practices regarding timeshare agreements.  That's why I am seeking an understanding as to the concept of "selling" an interest in one's timeshare for the year.  

I should add that the money itself has never been the issue for us.  It's the negative feeling that has been engendered with each of us feeling that the other is abusing a long standing friendship, and unless we can resolve it, we will both be left with a bitter aftertaste.  

Thanks again for the advice.


Ken


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## Timeshare Von (Sep 3, 2007)

I (and we) have taken friends and family on a number of TS based vacations.  I would never expect them to incur any cost that I would be having anyway, should plans change that would prevent them from being able to go.  The deal we usually work out with our family/friends is that we provide the accommodations (TS) and they pick up the rental car expense . . . and we share the gas.  Clearly my end of the deal is more expensive than theirs with the rental car, but should something happen that they not be able to join us, I would never hold them accountable for the car expense.

I would tell her that as much as you'd like to help her out with this, the expense she had in maintenace and/or exchange fees were going to happen and be hers whether or not you accepted her offer to join her on vacation and that you will not help her to offset her financial obligation/loss by paying her anything.

She is being totally unreasonable and I agree with you, trying to take advantage of a situation.  It has nothing to do with TS protocol and everything to do with what's fair with a friend.


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## Timeshare Von (Sep 3, 2007)

Silverfox10 said:


> I am hopeful that we will resolve it successfully but to do that, I need a better understanding of the customs and practices regarding timeshare agreements.  That's why I am seeking an understanding as to the concept of "selling" an interest in one's timeshare for the year.



There is no such thing in my opinion.  If they were "renting" their interest, most would say you should have a rental agreement.   I use them even with my friends who rent from me.   I also have a clause in mine that talks about what happens in the case of a natural disaster or something that may cause the TS unit to be uninhabitable.


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## UWSurfer (Sep 3, 2007)

Having watched too many TV small claims court shows, the basic problem I see from what you've presented was there doesn't appear to be any agreement in place other than to split costs of this trip.   The tricky problem is you didn't have an agreement on what happens if you don't go for whatever reason.  A contract requires a meeting of the minds, and aside from splitting costs of a trip you don't have a contract.

In this case with the Hurrican looming and common safety sense coming into play, I belive a judge in small claims would likely award you the $400.   However I've not heard your friend and any spin she'd put on it.

At the end of the day it's really going to come down to whether your friendship is worth loosing over $400.  If you take her to court you'll likely loose the friendship.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 3, 2007)

Yvonne and UWSurfer,  

Thank you very much for offering your views regarding my situation.  

Yvonne, I particularly want to thank you for the comment about “purchasing” a half interest in a timeshare because it was my sense that anyone who receives an income from their timeshare would do so via a rental agreement (whether written or verbal).  

As to your recommendation that I explain the numbers to her, I have already done so, and her response was that it’s not the money….it’s the principle.  Apparently, she thinks I am trying to back out of a deal.  My task is to show her that the deal she thinks she made only exists in her head, and to do this, your views and the views of other members may be of quite helpful.    

UW….I also want to thank you for your comments about a “meeting of the minds” because I am of the same opinion.  I have told her that her that the only thing we agreed upon was that I would pay her a sum of money for the shared use of her timeshare, and as such, we have a rental agreement rather than a “purchase” agreement.     

As to her spin, I can tell you that she does not deny that there was no discussion and/or offer to “purchase” an interest in the TS.  She seems to think that just by accepting her offer, I agreed to “purchase” a half interest in her timeshare. That’s one of the reasons I am asking other TS owners for advice.  This doesn’t seem to be a normal way for an owner to gain income from a timeshare but since I do not own a timeshare, I really need the views of other TS owners.   

As to recovery of the monies, I have no intention of going to court.  At this point, my focus is on putting everything into perspective.  The one thing we have agreed upon is that we are both adopting positions based upon principle rather than money.  But for me, the principle is that close friends do not try to realize gains at the others expense, and in the absence of any other information, this is what she appears to be doing.  If such proves to be the case and she places the opportunity to profit above our friendship, then the friendship has been destroyed even without going to court.  

Ken


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## johnmfaeth (Sep 3, 2007)

She may be trying to express that you "purchased" a 1/2 interest in this years usage, not the actual timehshre which exists for many years.

If you rent an apartment for a year, one could say that you "purchased" the rights to live there for a year.

But I must say again, if loss of use is caused by a weather incident, that is typically the responsibility of the person who is renting the timeshare, not the owner of the timeshare. For this reason, many rental insuance programs are offered to protect you from loss of use.


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## JoeMid (Sep 3, 2007)

You have nothing written.  You could have gone.  You are out $400.  You know what your 'friend' is like and it cost you $400 to find out.

There are no standards for you to fall back on, this was an agreement between friends.


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## Blondie (Sep 3, 2007)

I agree with John- and- as you said, it had to be used before August so you knew there was a time contstraint. In a situation like this the resort MAY allow you another week's usage at another time. It does sound like you paid to use a "now or never" week of hers- not to buy it. And- because weather is an iffy factor- the end result is out of both of your  hands. You agreed to go and to pay and now the week is gone. The alternative is to have her reimburse you, I guess. But, since the storm was not her fault would that make you even feel better? It is not like she made out on this deal, and she lost her money too. These things happen.


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## geekette (Sep 3, 2007)

I think you're stuck.  Pay the $400 and move on.

The deal was that you would pay the $400 to use the ts.  You couldn't use the ts, but you had already agreed to pay this amount for this week.  It's not too different from having to cancel anything else last minute:  you lose.

As to the 'purchase', that's just, well, WEIRD!!!  You could push the issue and say, well, I own part, so I want the next available week!  Then you have the issue of another potential $400.   It would be interesting, however, to find out what you now "own."  Are you suddenly on the deed??  Could you call Reservations and book for yourself?  I don't think so.  

Consider it an expensive lesson.  You should have had something in writing; you should have had trip insurance; you should have at least verbally discussed the potential for cancellation and what happens in that case.

Sorry for the hassle and damage to a friendship.


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## ladycody (Sep 3, 2007)

I agree with geekette.  I dont understand the whole 'purchase' end of things and would simply tell her you never agreed to partial ownership but only to use it with her this year.  If she cant get past that...there's really nothing you can do except let her be mad.  

As for the money...I dont think she owes any part of it to you.  You both agreed to take the trip when you did and the hurricane was beyond anyone's control.  The result would be no different for anything else cancelled last minute without trip insurance....you'd simply be out your money.  

Sorry about your situation though....I hope your friendship sees this through.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 3, 2007)

John……

“She may be trying to express that you "purchased" a 1/2 interest in this years usage, not the actual timehshre which exists for many years.”

That’s exactly what her view is.  She is claiming that for the week we planned to use the timeshare, I was a 50% owner and therefore was bound by any and all obligations that she had under her contract with RCI.  


“If you rent an apartment for a year, one could say that you "purchased" the rights to live there for a year.”

OK, but does the renter purchase the obligations of the landlord?  In this case, my friend had a contractual relationship with RCI, and is now claiming that her obligations are also mine.   Have you ever heard of such a thing?  

“But I must say again, if loss of use is caused by a weather incident, that is typically the responsibility of the person who is renting the timeshare, not the owner of the timeshare. For this reason, many rental insuance programs are offered to protect you from loss of use.”

If my friend had rented her one week TS to me for my use, this situation would not have arisen because under no circumstances would I book a room in Cancun during the summertime. We were supposed to go in August only because it suited her schedule.  She booked the trip at a time of her choosing, and planned to use it, taking me along.  

Thus in this particular case, the owner was using the TS and I had only agreed to accompany her as her room mate. . Since she is a long standing close friend, the notion that I had to protect myself from a loss inflicted by such a close friend never even crossed my mind.  Certainly, if my friend decided to protect herself from a calamity, I would not have hesitated to share the costs, but she chose not to.  Heck, I doubt if I could even get insurance because I could not provide any evidence that I was staying at the resort since it was booked in her name.  

I don’t want to abuse your kindness in offering assistance, John, but if you are willing to invest a little more time, I would like to know what you would do if you were the owner, and had booked a trip two weeks before your year expired, but couldn’t use it because of events out of your control or the control of a close friend who was accompanying you (i.e. and “act of god” event).   In such a case, would you have taken out insurance to protect yourself against this possibility?  Would you hold to the view that your friend lost his payment to you and it was up to him to protect himself from a loss instead of relying on a longstanding relationship?  Would you try to rebook the trip with your friend, using another timeshare (my friend owns several) and apply his payment to the trip, adding any re-booking costs.  In short, if you would act as my friend did, I would really like to understand the reasons, because right now I am having severe problems understanding how any close friend can do this when they have not suffered a financial loss.  Yes, you would be giving up a gain, but wouldn’t it be at your close friend’s expense?

Thanks again for your willingness to share your views.   



Ken


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## Lisa P (Sep 3, 2007)

I don't care much about the legality because we're talking about a friendship which is much more valuable than a few bucks.  She may not be too timeshare-savvy and that's not a crime.

It sounds to me like:

She feels that she'd lose $800 and you'd lose $0 (unreasonable to her), if she gives you back the $400.  After all, you both consented to book this trip and it's really neither of your faults that a hurricane happened.  Keeping the $400 softens the blow to her and she thinks you ought to understand that it was no one's fault.  So she wants to split the $800 loss.

You feel that you'd lose $400 and she'd only lose what she would have lost anyhow by letting the week expire (unreasonable to you), if she keeps the $400.  You had preferred a different, less risky time period but it didn't happen.  So you want your $400 back.

What would I would do?  Talk with the friend and let her know that I think whoever doesn't get the $400 will be left with hard feelings.  Ask to split it as a gesture of good will between friends so we could move on.  Suggest she think about it and get back with me later.  Just a thought.

Oh, and of course, let this be a learning experience for me... if money is changing hands between friends, make sure the details are in writing or consider the money potentially gone, without any option of recovery.  This is where extra caution must always be taken when mixing "business" with "pleasure" or friends/family.  We never borrow or lend money with friends for this reason - only straight-up "gifts" when someone is in need.  It's much less complicated.  HTH.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 3, 2007)

Joe… 

Your observation is one that I am trying to combat by seeking more information,  because at present,  it appears that my friend has placed the opportunity to make $400.00 over our relationship, and that is a depressing thought.  

As to having an agreement, we don’t have one, because there was no meeting of the minds, which is a requirement of any agreement.  Thus from a legal standpoint, I am comfortable that she is not entitled to keep the money, but that is small solace when a close friend abuses the relationship.  

Thanks for sharing your views…….

Ken


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## johnmfaeth (Sep 3, 2007)

Hi Ken,

First, it's sad that you are in this no-win situation.

If you re-read the last two lines of my first post (#3) you will see my personal viewpoint as someone that does a lot of rentals, including to friends and clients. These are proven friends and the clients are all long term and friends too.

But you must really ask yourself the nature of your friendship. I have had many alledged friends in the past who turned out to be acquantances when the friendship was put to the test. I hope that's not this case. I use the yardstick, that if I called them at 1 AM and was stuck 50 miles from home, would they drive out and pick me up?

But if you are truly friends, the posting suggesting a 50/50 split also sounds like a good compromise.

There are really two angles to your issue, the legal (and traditional) and the friendship perspective. The facts as you present it do not favor you from the legal/traditional angle, but the realities of friendship and how friends should act, do favor you. 

From the legal angle, like it or not, you became a renter the second you agreed to pay money. You did not enforce your renters rights to get something in writing, which would have permitted insurance.

I would hope and expect, that in this situation with one of my true friends (they are not many and rare gifts), that the argument would be the opposite, that I would be fighting for her to keep the $400 and she would be arguing that she wanted to return it.


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## brucecz (Sep 3, 2007)

You posted that " my friend had a contractual relationship with RCI, and is now claiming that her obligations are also mine. Have you ever heard of such a thing?"

If this is a RCI exchange she traded for, then she is in violation of her RCI membership in regards to getting a more money than the cost of the RCI  exchange fee to Mexico of $199 and and the cost of a guest certificate of $65 IF it had been put solely in your name.  She may have just made a unknowing innocent  mistake in trying to charge you rent IF this was a RCI exchange.

She may/ or should be be aware of this rule in respect the "Terms And Conditions" to the non rental of a exchange week gotten from RCI.

So if it is a RCI exchange thenshe is in clear volalation of those written rules written in RCI's terms and conditions. Maybe you should make her aware if this was a RCI exchange and RCI finds out about it RCI would have the right to  suppend or cancel her membership.

My bride and I in fact will be going to Puerto Vallarta Mexico on 2 differant exchanges starting this September 8 and  staying through September 18.

The first week is through II in a 2 bedroom unit at the  Lindo Mar that has simlar rules as RCI in regards to payment.  That week we have invited a freind at no cost to them.

The second week is through a RCI  exchange in a one bedroom at the Lindo Mar  after our friend leaves.

Bruce


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## ladycody (Sep 3, 2007)

If I were the owner, and dealing with a friend, I would simply take them on a trip elsewhere without requiring additional money.  The reality is that those expenses would have been mine alone anyway.  It's MY ownership and the property taxes etc are MY responsibility whether I use it or not.  I have no problem with accepting money/consideration from someone who might accompany me and derive benefit....but given the circumstances would simply include them on the next trip.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 3, 2007)

Blondie.....

Thanks for sharing your views with me, Blondie.  

Since you agree with John, may I ask you to take a look at my response to John's posting, and let me know how you, as a timeshare owner, would handle a similiar situation?   It will be very much appreciated.  


Ken


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## jlwquilter (Sep 3, 2007)

Silverfox10 said:


> John……
> 
> 
> If my friend had rented her one week TS to me for my use, this situation would not have arisen because under no circumstances would I book a room in Cancun during the summertime. We were supposed to go in August only because it suited her schedule.  She booked the trip at a time of her choosing, and planned to use it, taking me along.
> ...



I understand why both of you are upset. And at this point, I don't think either of you will be swayed by "facts" to change your position - it's emotional now; it may be about winning now. 

You have to decided what to do for the long term now. Do you think your friendship can survive this? Do you even want it to? If you do, then do what you have to do to achieve that end. Period. Compromise/giving in for the greater good is the solution that will save the friendship, if that's what you want.

Grit your teeth and say that you've thought it over and can see her point (not agree with it but you don't have to say that!) and let's just laugh over this silliness on both of your parts. If you can't/won't do that, because of any of a number of valid reasons, then what does it matter? Walk away from the $400 and the friendship that wasn't what you thought/hoped it was.

All that said, my personal take on the situation is that you need to take a little more responsibilty for your own actions. In the qote above you say you wouldn't go to Cancun in the summer as a renter, under any circumstances - but in fact, you planned on that exactly. You could have told her no, August wasn't your preferred time and while you'd love to go, etc, not this time, thanks for asking. But you agrred to go. You say you only agreed to be a roommate - but you also agreed to pay half the TS cost for the trip. I gather you also were part of the decision making to cancel the trip (no matter how no brainer that decision was to make) or at least readily agreed that it was the right decision to make. You voluntarily made yourself part of this trip from the get-go. You took on the risks of going. If it didn't happen thru no fault of hers, then you should bear the cost of your part of the trip you agreed to - the $400.


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## pcgirl54 (Sep 3, 2007)

*Sticky indeed!*

To clarify, Both you and the owner(your friend) were both going to Cancun together since you mentioned she had to go in August when she wanted to go. And together you were splitting her MF cost of $800 or $400 each because you were her guests and friends. Then all of you cancelled due to Hurricane Dean,an Act of God. You both lost since the week expired and you had to both cancel the vacation. Is this correct? If so you are not a renter or leasee but friends who agreed to vacation together splitting MF and exchange costs. 

"_Last March, a long-time friend informed me that she had to use her timeshare before the end of August, and suggested that we use it in the summer when she is not working as a school teacher. I agreed, and after considering a few options, we settled on Cancun. At the time, I told her that I would prefer to go right after school closed, but she said it had to be in August because she had other plans for July. I didn't have any problems with this because I have a flexible schedule. She then contacted her timeshare company and booked the trip for seven days beginning on August 17th. As to costs, we had agreed that her maintenance costs and fee for switching units would be split evenly. " Quote_

Did the resort cancel any guest reservations due to the impending hurricane? Was the Cancun airport open the day you were to land? Did anyone speak with RCI ? 

 Also I thought one could pay RCI a fee to extend a week out 6 months beyond the expiration date. Maybe this was already done. 

Vacation insurance with the exchange company would have rectified the monetary loss or given her another week in it's place to expire in a year. There are rules you can read online.

Here is my take if the above is true:

It seems she exchanged her week for Cancun and chose a week to travel in hurricane season. You agreed to go with her in August but really preferred another time to travel.

 I understand why she does not want to reimburse you since you both agreed to split costs pretrip and you both lost out on a Cancun vacation due to severe weather.

I understand why you feel a refund is due on a lost vacation since you are not the owner. The owner would have had to soley bear the financial loss for an unused week had you not been in the picture at all.

But since you were both in the picture and since you both agreed to split fees then I would stick by that agreement and both bear the loss. 

No one discussed what happens if the vacation had to be cancelled,vacation insurance was not bought and no one thought about hurricane season. 

There are friends as posted who would have given the monies back to you since you were not the owner.  Your friend wants to stick to the original deal and split the loss since neither of you could go so the entire loss is not hers.

SiIlverfox,IMHO a better arrangement is to keep the original agreement and let her keep the money. She should also take you on a future trip at no cost to you  in good faith. Thus she keeps the money and you get a trip credit and hopefully both save face and remain friends. Just do not travel in hurricane season to the tropics.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 3, 2007)

I think I need to be a little clearer as to the issue I as I see it.  

From a legal point of view, there are some sound reasons to believe that a court would rule that the money has to be returned, but even if it did, I still lose.  

The only reason money is a factor is because by returning it, my friend will demonstrate that our friendship comes before the opportunity to make a buck at the other’s expense.  Conversely, if she doesn’t return it, then my friendship is not worth very much to her.  As a side note, a mutual friend who is quite familiar with real estate law has told me that, despite the validity of my position, she doesn’t think my close friend will return the money.  It may turn out that she knows my friend better than I do, but because of our history together, I am determined to leave no stone unturned in my attempt to put the issue into perspective. Then if she still opts for the money, I can at least take solace in the comfort that I really didn’t lose a close friend.  Hope this makes sense 

Thanks also for the comment about the deal being “weird”.   I didn’t think this was how TS owners handle rentals and I really appreciate the input.


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## bnoble (Sep 3, 2007)

A reasonable person could agree with either of two points of view.  One is that, by agreeing to split the costs of the lodging, you also agreed to split the risk of cancellation.  The other is that the owner bears the sole risk of cancellation.  What's more, I would not be surprised if either point of view were upheld in small claims court.



> The only reason money is a factor is because by returning it, my friend will demonstrate that our friendship comes before the opportunity to make a buck at the other’s expense.



I suppose it would be possible for your friend to feel the same way about your insistence that it be returned.

In any event, I think you've got two options: try to come to a reasonable compromise---recognizing that this probably doesn't include simply getting your money back---or walk away from the money and the friendship.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 3, 2007)

I want to extend my sincere appreciation to all of you who have helped me by sharing your views as to my situation.  Because you have done so, I do want to acknowledge my appreciation by responding individually, and I hope to do so, but it may take some time.  So please bear with me on this….

In this post, I would like to pass on some information that is in response to a suggestion offered by pcgirl54…specifically that I let my friend  keep the money and as a good faith gesture she should bring me along on a future trip. 

 I have no problem with this because from a cost point of view, it amounts to simply applying what I gave her to the next trip.  It was my belief that she was going to do this, and in anticipation of this, I told her that if the maintenance costs were greater and/or there were any new charges, I would ante up additional money.  However, her response was that the money was lost, and any new trip would involve new costs.  That’s when I realized we had a predicament.  

As to sharing any losses, I would willingly do that, but as I see it there was no financial loss.  As I mentioned in a prior post, her annual operating costs are about $800.00 and if we used the TS, she would have reduced her annual charges to $400.00 and both of us would have gained the benefit of using the TS.  That didn’t happen, but she still wants to come out at the same place…..i.e. gaining a reduction in her costs of $400.00, even though the trip was canceled.  At the same time, I lost not only the opportunity to use the timeshare, but I am out of pocket $400.00.  So from the perspective of losses, I am the only one who is incurring a loss.  In my view, sharing losses goes hand-in-hand with sharing savings when a close friend is involved, but in this case, the only thing she is giving up is the opportunity to make a buck at a friend’s expense, and in my value system. close friends simply don’t do this to each other.  Please understand that my views aren’t based upon the fact that she should bear the costs because she is the owner. They are based upon the view that there was no loss to either of us if she returned my money (or credited it to another trip).  .

As to insurance, I should also add that when we realized the trip had to be cancelled, she called RCI to do so.  When she hung up, she told me that she could have purchased insurance but decided not to.  She also told me that she had until the end of the month to re-book.  I suggested that we look into Vegas (thinking that it might be one of the few places where we could get last minute flight tickets at a reasonable price).  She vetoed this idea because she spent time there in April at one of her other timeshares, and didn’t want to go back so soon.  As it turned out, this was not practical in any event, because with such short notice, the flights were prohibitively expensive.  Since that time, she has claimed that she was referring to luggage insurance, not vacation insurance, and maintains that she is unaware of any insurance offered through RCI.


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## Timeshare Von (Sep 3, 2007)

Silverfox10 said:


> As to insurance, I should also add that when we realized the trip had to be cancelled, she called RCI to do so.  When she hung up, she told me that she could have purchased insurance but decided not to . . . Since that time, she has claimed that she was referring to luggage insurance, not vacation insurance, and maintains that she is unaware of any insurance offered through RCI.



RCI does offer trip cancellation insurance but it has to be bought relatively soon after the exchange is confirmed.  We confirmed two weeks in Hawaii for this month, back in spring of 2006.  When I realized the trip might be in jeopardy in December, the opportunity to buy it was closed, even though the trip wasn't for another nine months.  I believe there is insurance reminders printed right on the RCI exchange confirmation document.  I know it is on both of my exchange confirmations for our trip this month.

Good luck in trying to find an amicable solution that you both can live with.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 3, 2007)

Bnoble……

Your point about how she might feel is well taken.   

Her view is that “a deal is a deal” and is upset because she thinks I am trying to renege.  The irony is that, as to this point, I felt like I was between a rock and a hard place.  Here’s why.  

If I were dealing with anyone but a close friend, I would never make an agreement without protecting myself.  However, since this was not the case, I relied upon the trust and goodwill that has been engendered over the years.  Furthermore, had I insisted on including provisions that protected me, there’s a good likelihood that she would have jumped all over me for showing a lack of trust.  In any event, I chose to rely on our friendship rather than a binding contract, and by doing so, our agreement did not deal with “acts of god”.  As such, she believes she has a legal right to the money, and therefore my actions are seen as an attempt to renege.  The irony is that by relying on the trust and good will between us, I dug a hole for myself.  I have tried to bring this to her attention but thus far I have not been successful in changing her perspective.  

As to the options, I will most likely have to walk away from the friendship if she insists on making money out of this, because I could never count anyone who thinks this way as a close friend.  But before doing this, I am going to give it my best shot because in the past she has always come through when the issue is presented properly.  

Thanks much for taking the time to share your thoughts.  

Ken
.


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## pcgirl54 (Sep 3, 2007)

Silverfox,
Thanks for the extra info especially about the insurance. You have been more than earnest in trying to solve this.

I ran into this with a Hurricane Charley that hit Captiva Island and Sanibel with II in August 2004.  You could buy trip insurance up until shortly the trip as long as there was not an impending disaster about to hit. Once it is reported in the path I could not buy it per II. This has probably been modified since that time and years of many Hurricanes. 
Gave my MIL a South Seas Plantation week as a gift to use with her friends. She was beyond thrilled and then the storm hit and closed down the island. II gave me a year to rebook since SS Resort cancelled all future guest reservations. Luckily there was no airfare involved and the next year, 2005, I sent my MIL to Eagle's Nest in Marco instead with the credited week. . BTW Hurricane Wilma hit the week before,she went anyway and I bought insurance in case. I always buy a guest certificate for her.

It's too bad your friend will not use the $400 as a credit against a future trip  which in my mind seems reasonable. 

From your description it sounds like this is not going in a positive direction anytime soon. I would not want to vacation with someone who seems more interested in taking me just to save paying a full MF and exchange fee. That discovery though maddening is worth more than the money you lost.

 Vacations and splitting tabs with friends and family can cause strange things at times whether its a timeshare, a hotel or vacation home.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 3, 2007)

*Does this make sense?*

Hello everyone,  

Once again, I want to express my gratitude to all of you who have taken the time to share your views with me, and I apologize for not being able to respond individually to everyone.  

Because your views have helped me, I would like to ask you to consider another option that recently came to mind.  Before I explain it, allow me to note that the main value of this concept is to demonstrate that something is amiss with my friend’s position.  As I have mentioned she usually comes through when the issue is presented properly, and maybe the following concept will help in this regard.    

My friend believes that I was her partner, rather than a room mate, and therefore I had to use the TS before the end of August.  Let us assume that such is the case.  
Would it not follow that the value of the partnership is directly related to the life of the partnership?  For example, if we planned a trip for the first week of her year, the life of the partnership would be one year, and sharing the costs equally would be appropriate.  But if the trip was planned for two weeks before the end of the year, then the life of the partnership is only two weeks, and the risk of losing the TS is correspondingly greater.  As such, if the arrangement was based on a partnership rather than a paying guest, the value of a two week partnership would have a substantial risk and only be worth about $800/26, or $31.00 as opposed to the value someone would be willing to pay as rent, without the attendant risks 

To the extent that this argument makes sense, it may help persuade my friend to accept the notion that I was not a partner and therefore the monies should be applied to the next trip.  Of course, she may still argue that she has a right to keep the money but she will have to come up with another reason, and if she does, I guess I have my answer…

Your thoughts will be sincerely welcomed.  

Ken


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 3, 2007)

I believe RCI will allow a week to be extended for a price.  Maybe you should ask her if she would call RCI and find out.  That would at least recover your loss here and keep a friendship intact.  

Good luck to you.


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## wackymother (Sep 3, 2007)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I believe RCI will allow a week to be extended for a price.  Maybe you should ask her if she would call RCI and find out.  That would at least recover your loss here and keep a friendship intact.
> 
> Good luck to you.



That's a good idea. Maybe your friend (hah) would allow you to pay for the extension of the week and then you could USE the week yourself. 

Then you could take a real friend along.


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## wackymother (Sep 3, 2007)

By the way, the RCI website is www.rci.com. There are 800 numbers for RCI on the home page. You can call them before you talk to your friend, and find out what the deal is on extending an exchange and on buying insurance. Obviously she is not telling you the whole story, so you might as well get what info you can straight from RCI.


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## taffy19 (Sep 3, 2007)

This is one reason why we will never ask our family or friends for money when we invite them to stay with us at our timeshare resorts.  The money isn't worth losing a good friendship over.

However, it is a good idea to ask them to buy travel insurance just in case something like this happens.  I learned this now from reading your posts.  I feel bad that your friendship has suffered because of this deal and I hope they will take you on a future trip so you didn't lose your $400 or your friendship.

If you do a financial deal with family or friends, you better have everything spelled out in a contract so each party knows what to expect and put in the contract too that you recommend them taking out travel insurance.  If they don't take it out, then a hurricane or a sudden change is their loss and not yours.


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## easyrider (Sep 4, 2007)

*It seems fair you both pay*

If you were going to get one beer with your buddy to share and decided to get a Corona and drink it at noon and split the cost but then suddenly it falls over and spills you both lose. 

That seems fair. 

Your buddy might feel as bad as you about the whole thing. 
HE DIDNT GET ANY CORONA EITHER.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 4, 2007)

Easysider…….

Thanks for the post.  I liked the example you used to illustrate the issue.  

In your example, the buddy shared the cost of purchasing the beer, and as such it’s only fair to share the costs. But now consider the following situation. 

In this case, your buddy doesn’t have to pay for the beer.  He belongs to a club, and his dues cover the cost of his beer.  Then he didn’t suffer a financial loss.   That’s the situation as it applies to my friend.  She pays an annual charge whether or not she uses her time share.  

If your buddy decides he wants to save on his club dues, he could offer you half the beer if you paid him something for it.  If you accept and the beer breaks, should your buddy still keep the money?   In such a situation, wouldn’t you expect your buddy to share another one with you without asking you for more money?   If he was a complete stranger, I think we could accept it if he tried to make money off us, but a buddy?    What would you do in this situation?  I would welcome your point of view, because this example is analogous to what has happened.  

Ken


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## wackymother (Sep 4, 2007)

I'm agreeing with Ken here. The friend had to pay the maintenance fee no matter what. 

Plus she screwed up by not buying the insurance (RCI does have cancellation insurance--it's not very good, but most of us would buy it for a booking in Mexico in hurricane season).

Plus she refused to move the booking to Vegas when Ken suggested it, because she didn't want to go to Vegas.

Plus, by handling things in this nasty way, she has ensured that Ken will never go on vacation with her again. So, who knows, she could have had YEARS of splitting her $800 maintenance fee and having a friend to go on vacation with. Now she's blown that.


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## bnoble (Sep 4, 2007)

At the end of the day though, it doesn't matter who is "right".  The question is: what to do?  OP is unlikely to convince the friend that she is wrong, and the friend's position, while not necessarily the one we might each take, is not completely indefensible.  Adding to that the fact that possession is 9/10ths of the law, until such time as "the law" becomes actually involved, and well, there you go.

I think that OP's insistence on trying to get people here to agree with his position is a waste of time.  It won't get him his money back, even if every single one of us agrees.  What's he going to do, print this out and show it to his friend? 

I still stand by my original advice: walk away from the money and the friendship, or try to negotiate a reasoanble compromise, recognizing that the other party may be unwilling to do so.  If you really want to push it, take her to small claims court, but depending on the value of your time, it's probalby not worth the $400 to do so.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 4, 2007)

*What's the OP going to do?*



bnoble said:


> At the end of the day though, it doesn't matter who is "right".  The question is: what to do?  OP is unlikely to convince the friend that she is wrong, and the friend's position, while not necessarily the one we might each take, is not completely indefensible.  Adding to that the fact that possession is 9/10ths of the law, until such time as "the law" becomes actually involved, and well, there you go.
> 
> I think that OP's insistence on trying to get people here to agree with his position is a waste of time.  It won't get him his money back, even if every single one of us agrees.  What's he going to do, print this out and show it to his friend?
> 
> I still stand by my original advice: walk away from the money and the friendship, or try to negotiate a reasoanble compromise, recognizing that the other party may be unwilling to do so.  If you really want to push it, take her to small claims court, but depending on the value of your time, it's probalby not worth the $400 to do so.




I don't know what OP means, but I am guessing it means Origanal Poster, so I want to address the question "What's he going to do, print this out and show it to his friend?"   

As I have mentioned, my friend usually sees things from the other side when presently properly, and my goal has been to do precisely that.  Since I have been largly unsuccessful in this regard (most likely because I am a vested party), my thought has been to share the comments, thoughts and suggestions posted by the members (both pro and con) with her.  Even if it proves unsuccessful, I believe our friendship calls for it before walking away.  Otherwise, I will probably question whether I did everything I could. 

Small claims is not the answer because it's the friendship that's at stake, and her decision as to the disposition of the money is the barometer against which to measure the value of the friendship. 

I hope this makes sense, and to those of you who see it as a worthwhile endeavor,  I ask only that if your views have changed in any way as a result of the dialogue, please add them so I can present a complete picture to her.  

At this point, I probably sound like a broken record, but I do want everyone to know that I sincerely appreciate your advice and indulgance regarding this matter.

Ken


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## JanT (Sep 4, 2007)

It never fails to amaze me what people do in the name of "friendship."  The OP's so-called friend had to pay the $800 for her week regardless of whether the OP went on a trip with her or not.  She offers up the use of her week with the caveat of him splitting the yearly maintenance fee with her, i.e., $400.00.  (Total BS in my opinion.  He's a *friend!!*.  You don't make money off of friends.  When you invite someone, you invite someone - period.  When she offered up the use of her timeshare it should have been at no cost because *she* wanted to go on vacation and didn't want to go by herself obviously.  He should have immediately and generously offered up to pay for the rental car and a certain amount of meals just to show his appreciation).  She was going to lose the week because of her poor planning or maybe some other issues that kept her from losing the week.  The OP is supposed to share the cost of her stupidity???  Huh???  I don't even condone the OP paying half the exchange fee.  Why should he?  She was either losing the week or was going to exchange for a vacation for herself anyway.  

I agreed with my best friend to go to Mexico this year and another one of our friends is joining us.  I would *never* consider charging them for the use of the unit or ask them to pay half our maintenance fees.  And honestly, I don't expect anything in terms of compensation.  If they offer to pick up a meal or two, fine.  But I don't expect it and I sure as heck wouldn't ask.  IMO you just don't do that to friends.  If they offer, they offer.  If they don't, they don't.  I figure I'm going on vacation and if my unit is bigger than what I need and it doesn't cost me anything to have a larger unit, why not share with my friends???  I wouldn't allow the same people to use me every year for a free vacation though.  I have my limits on generousity.

OP - consider this an expensive lesson and count yourself as having one less "friend."  This girl is a user and she took advantage of you.  For her to not give back the $400 or at least apply it to a future trip speaks volumes about her as a person.  She was out the $800 for maintenance fees whether you went or not.  She's not someone you want or need in your life and she's definitely not a true friend.


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## TheFlush (Sep 4, 2007)

bnoble said:


> What's he going to do, print this out and show it to his friend?
> QUOTE]
> 
> That's exactly what I would do.
> ...


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 4, 2007)

JanT said:


> It never fails to amaze me what people do in the name of "friendship."  The OP's so-called friend had to pay the $800 for her week regardless of whether the OP went on a trip with her or not.  She offers up the use of her week with the caveat of him splitting the yearly maintenance fee with her, i.e., $400.00.  (Total BS in my opinion.  He's a *friend!!*.  You don't make money off of friends.  When you invite someone, you invite someone - period.  When she offered up the use of her timeshare it should have been at no cost because *she* wanted to go on vacation and didn't want to go by herself obviously.  He should have immediately and generously offered up to pay for the rental car and a certain amount of meals just to show his appreciation).  She was going to lose the week because of her poor planning or maybe some other issues that kept her from losing the week.  The OP is supposed to share the cost of her stupidity???  Huh???  I don't even condone the OP paying half the exchange fee.  Why should he?  She was either losing the week or was going to exchange for a vacation for herself anyway.
> 
> I agreed with my best friend to go to Mexico this year and another one of our friends is joining us.  I would *never* consider charging them for the use of the unit or ask them to pay half our maintenance fees.  And honestly, I don't expect anything in terms of compensation.  If they offer to pick up a meal or two, fine.  But I don't expect it and I sure as heck wouldn't ask.  IMO you just don't do that to friends.  If they offer, they offer.  If they don't, they don't.  I figure I'm going on vacation and if my unit is bigger than what I need and it doesn't cost me anything to have a larger unit, why not share with my friends???  I wouldn't allow the same people to use me every year for a free vacation though.  I have my limits on generousity.
> 
> OP - consider this an expensive lesson and count yourself as having one less "friend."  This girl is a user and she took advantage of you.  For her to not give back the $400 or at least apply it to a future trip speaks volumes about her as a person.  She was out the $800 for maintenance fees whether you went or not.  She's not someone you want or need in your life and she's definitely not a true friend.


Jan........

My sister has owned a TS for about a year, and when I told her about this incident, she responded in the same way.  She has used her TS a few times, and wouldn't think of charging a friend.  Furthermore, after learning that it is somewhat common for TS owners to invite friends for free rather than charge them, I am seeing my friend in a different light.   Maybe she will see it in a different light if she reads the views of the group, but if she doesn't, my learning experience will make it a lot easier to say good-bye.

Thanks for sharing....

Ken


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## geekette (Sep 4, 2007)

Add me to the list of those who wouldn't charge a friend to accompany me on a trip.  They usually kick in rental car/gas, groceries or pick up the tab on a restaurant or attraction while there.  They have offered cash and I have refused.

It's a bit different if I'm not going, tho.  In that case, it depends on how many points I spent, whether I had to exchange, etc., but I never attempt to recover anywhere near my 'true cost.'  I have on occasion sent family and friends on trips without me gratis.

I tend to believe that what goes around, comes around.


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## Lglen119 (Sep 4, 2007)

*there are other options too*

Ken:

first off - I'm sorry for the mess you are in, and yes, we too vacation with our friends and never chat about sharing in their M&T dues.  We consider it the obligation of the owner, whoever is using their time that year, and we settle up in other ways.  We both own, so we have some unique solutions for protecting ourselves.  We too NEVER share in or discuss the M&T obligation of the other person.  We're invited along for the fun factor and other reasons.

Second off.  Even if she had bought the RCI cancellation protection, it is NOT insurance. It is cancellation protection of the RCI points and exchange fee.  It would not pay back her M&T dues under any reason, so the $800 is gone unless there was a future exchange against the initial deposit made.  RCI is not alone.  Interval is the same way.  No coverage for M&T exposure.  I'll pass on things I've learned the hard way, so you can learn from my mistakes.

I'd recommend you look around for a better option on insurance for the next trip. For timeshare ownership, we buy only through Vacationguard because it addresses all this and gives far better coverage.   www.vacationguard.com  We get our M&T covered and great travel insurance, and if I need some airfare covered for more than the change fees, I can buy their upgrade, which cost me a whole $39.  I had everything I needed for me and my family for under $100 for the year when we traveled off-shore, and it's a great plan.  The other family buys their vacationguard plan through Intrawest (where they own), so each family has their own timeshare protection.

I've also noticed the word "rentals" on this, which is an excellent point.  Again, read the fine print for the travel insurance is different. This usually has nothing to do with M&T ownership. Thus this could be:  (A) the guest who may not own a timeshare goes along  (b) our family sharing the timeshare unit of our friends, and paying our way to go  (c) inviting along friends, etc.    For instance, we went skiing but it was our friends ownership time.  We bought rental travel insurance through vacationguard becuase it had nothing to do with our annual dues.   Free lodging, which we offset with libations and food.

In another situation, we rent a vacation home with a group every 2 yrs.  It's clearly a rental - we pay money unrelated to our timeshare or M&T bill.   ResortQuest keeps pushing us to buy their rental insurance, but it's not very good and lots of limitations, plus they want to wack us with security deposit waiver coverage too, for more money.    We then found out that we can get better plans for less with Vacationguard on their 'leisure" plan, and it solves the security damage problem because vacationguard includes some property damage, so it saved us another $100 Resortquest was pushing on us. Each each one of the 3 families was then left to buy (or not buy) our own protection for the trip costs each of us had.  Thus, the risk of travel, and the cost associated with that travel and non-refundable rental fees, is then up to each family.  

In your case, the non-timeshare owner could get/(have gotten) "rental travel insurance" for under $60 for the trip and the problem is fixed.  Point being - "rentals" are different than timeshare ownership, and require extra money unrelated to M&T, so find out what is being used and who is entitled to what under the transaction you're invited into.  Protect your travel plans individually in the future, and it will help keep friendships seperate from financial discussions.

I hope it works out for you - friendships are so hard to build that it's a shame to have then get messy over something that nobody anticipated or planned for.  I know - 20/20 hindsight.  it's awful, but we've all been there.  At least there are solutions and hints so you don't have to suffer this twice.  Good luck.


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## easyrider (Sep 4, 2007)

*You both lose a week.*

The maintance fee isnt the only cost the friend has for this week. Your friend had to purchase the privledge to pay a maintance fee. I dont think $800.00 is a true value for the week. If the friend paid $20,000 for a 30 year right to use + an $800.00 MF for 30 year($24000.00) = aprox $54,000.00 or about $1800 a week. You may have lost $400.00 but the owner lost $1400.00 on that deal.

We take family and friends on Vacations with us but unless you are our child or grandchild we expect to be paid for our units using the above formula. Ours were all bought resale for very little so the weeks are not that much. If im not traveling with our friends and family and they want the week we usally charge them the going rate on expedia minus 40%. Thats a pretty good deal for an owners unit and no one has ever complained. They always want to go back so we help them buy their own.  

I might get a little frustrated as you are but wouldnt push it to far or you might not get invited back to pay a very little for such a nice place. If you two traded places would you refund the $400.00 after spending all that money for the timeshare. 

Its really not my business but since you asked I wouldnt give it back either.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 4, 2007)

I cannot help but consider RCI's position on RENTING EXCHANGES here.  The OWNER broke a rule with RCI, though probably unknowingly.  You cannot say to a friend, "I have a week I cannot use, so would you pay the maintenance fees and use it?"  You can, however, charge the $164 exchange fee to the friend, but according to RCI, you cannot charge your friend maintenance fees because it is against the rules.  Now get that friend on the deed, it is a different story.  Our children are all on our deeds and they pay when they use the weeks.  I just gave our son the bill for our Hawaii week that our son just exchanged for Aruba.  

I think an arrangement between friends stays between friends, so I am not saying the friend should not have charged, but the simple fact of the matter is that such an exchange of money is something you don't want to tell RCI about.  

I would see if the week can be extended.  I know it is past, but RCI is all about the money and an extension is something they might still do.  I would make the friend check for you.  I would also offer to pay for it and then tell her you want the vacation insurance, or get independent vacation insurance.  

I think we are going to get vacation insurance for our vacations because something is always coming up.  I have cancelled three weeks in the past year.  Very expensive.  

Your friend could lose her exchange privileges with RCI for breaking the "do not rent exchanges" rule.  

So sad that you probably lost a friend.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 4, 2007)

easysider said:


> The maintance fee isnt the only cost the friend has for this week. Your friend had to purchase the privledge to pay a maintance fee. I dont think $800.00 is a true value for the week. If the friend paid $20,000 for a 30 year right to use + an $800.00 MF for 30 year($24000.00) = aprox $54,000.00 or about $1800 a week. You may have lost $400.00 but the owner lost $1400.00 on that deal.
> 
> We take family and friends on Vacations with us but unless you are our child or grandchild we expect to be paid for our units using the above formula. Ours were all bought resale for very little so the weeks are not that much. If im not traveling with our friends and family and they want the week we usally charge them the going rate on expedia minus 40%. Thats a pretty good deal for an owners unit and no one has ever complained. They always want to go back so we help them buy their own.
> 
> ...



Easysider, 

If my friend lost money, I certainly want to know about that, but I don’t understand the basis for your calculations.  

I don’t know what she paid for the TS, but whatever its value is, it is not an expense.  It is an asset which one hopes will appreciate over time.  As such, you simply can’t treat it as an operating cost.  Upon the sale of the unit, the difference in value is either a capital gain or capital loss, but it is certainly not an expense.    

The figure of $800.00 was an estimate I used based upon what my friend charged me. My cost was $425.00 which was (according to my friend) half the total MF plus exchange fee and one other cost which I can‘t recall.  I don’t know how much of this is the MF so I just approximated it. To find her actual operating costs, the exchange fee and other charge would have to be deducted.  While I do not know what this amounts to, I can assure you that my friend would not overlook any cost when calculating her costs.  

One request…..I appreciate that you shared your own view as to what you would do, but may I ask for your reason(s)?    I say this because if there is something I am overlooking, I would like to know about it.

Thanks again

Ken


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 4, 2007)

Lglen119 said:


> Ken:
> 
> first off - I'm sorry for the mess you are in, and yes, we too vacation with our friends and never chat about sharing in their M&T dues.  We consider it the obligation of the owner, whoever is using their time that year, and we settle up in other ways.  We both own, so we have some unique solutions for protecting ourselves.  We too NEVER share in or discuss the M&T obligation of the other person.  We're invited along for the fun factor and other reasons.
> 
> ...



Lglen, 

Thank you for the good advice.  

If nothing else, this experience has been a valuable learning lesson, and I now understand why some people will never enter into financial agreements with family members and/or close friends. It's fraught with peril.  

Ken


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 4, 2007)

EasySider,  

I am sorry I overlooked responding to the question you posed in your post.

As to whether I would give it back.... It wouldn't be an issue, because I wouldn't charge my friend to begin with.  Why on earth would I do that if I have the costs anyway.  That's like inviting friends to your home for a week and charging them a proportional amount of your monthly housing costs

Ken


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## easyrider (Sep 4, 2007)

*Hi Ken*

A timeshare is really not an asset like a vacation home that apreciates with time but more like a car that goes down in value. The first person that buys the car pays the most. If a person buys a TS from the developer they are like the guy buying the new car. If you buy resale you are like the second buyer getting the car with some miles but in nice shape all the same, just not new or as expensive. 

If you look at ebay for timeshares you will see many people willing to lose what you refer to as investment at a huge loss. Timesharing is an investment in fun like a boat to me any way. Ive not made any real money renting out my units and we never intended to. 

Were in it for the fun. 

Were not here for a long time but we are here for a good time. 

It might just cost you about one Corona a day for a year to keep your friend. You should buy two so you will have one as well. Then plan a better trip.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 4, 2007)

easysider said:


> A timeshare is really not an asset like a vacation home that apreciates with time but more like a car that goes down in value. The first person that buys the car pays the most. If a person buys a TS from the developer they are like the guy buying the new car. If you buy resale you are like the second buyer getting the car with some miles but in nice shape all the same, just not new or as expensive.
> 
> If you look at ebay for timeshares you will see many people willing to lose what you refer to as investment at a huge loss. Timesharing is an investment in fun like a boat to me any way. Ive not made any real money renting out my units and we never intended to.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info... Then from your point of view a TS is a depreciable asset.  I probably know your answer to this one, but I have to ask it anyway. 

Does the government recognize the depreciation cost as an expense for tax purposes?   

Ken


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## Timeshare Von (Sep 4, 2007)

Silverfox10 said:


> Thanks for the info... Then from your point of view a TS is a depreciable asset.  I probably know your answer to this one, but I have to ask it anyway.
> 
> Does the government recognize the depreciation cost as an expense for tax purposes?
> 
> Ken



Only if the "asset" is claimed as part of some business endeavour.  (At least I think that is the right terminology.)  The individual/company would have to claim all sorts of other things like revenue/income, etc.  Most do not bother to claim income so I don't think they bother with the "expense" side of it.

As TS owners, most can deduct the real estate tax portion if it is clearly spelled out in the MF or other resort assessment(s).


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## easyrider (Sep 4, 2007)

*I dont know.*

Ken

I dont know.

 I do know alot of people pay top dollar for their ts and always wondered if they were able to claim a loss on their taxes for dumping it. I also wondered how much you have to profit from renting a ts to others befor you have to claim it on your taxes as income. Is it a good right off when you give a ts to charity ? 

Some one at tug probally knows.


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## taffy19 (Sep 4, 2007)

Silverfox10 said:


> Subsequently, we talked about re-booking and it was at this time that she told me that she wasn't applying the monies I gave her to any re-booking. Her explanation was that the timeshare had to be used by the end of August, and because it wasn't, I lost my share.


I read your first message over again and personally, I wouldn't even consider her a friend now I read that she will not put the money towards a future trip either. You have lost your money and a friend and consider it a valuable lesson to you for $400.   

Someone gave a good tip in this thread where to buy reasonable insurance too from now on.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 4, 2007)

easysider said:


> Ken
> 
> I dont know.
> 
> ...



Yvonne….Thanks for the info.  I had a suspicion that such was the case but wasn’t sure. 


EASYSIDER…..

What this means is that even if the TS depreciates to nothing over 30 years, it is not an operating cost.  It would be considered a capital loss, which might or might not be deducted at the time of loss, depending upon the tax laws in effect at that time.  

But for the purposes of putting your view about costs into perspective (as I see it)  I would like to apply your analogy to sharing the cost of a Corona   

It’s the same scenario…..You are a member of a club, but because of the depreciation factor , your dues are two or three times what they might otherwise be,  Thus if you ask your buddy for a contribution to share the Corona, you have to ask for $4.00 rather than $2.00.  

Here’s what I would like to know….

Given the above scenario, would you ask a buddy to pay anything for the Corona?  
If you did, and the bottle broke, would you replace it for free or ask for another $4.00.  

If your answer yes to either, then maybe the difference in how we see things is simply a case of defining a buddy in a different way.?   Maybe my list of buddies is a lot smaller.  What do you think?     

Ken


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 4, 2007)

iconnections said:


> I read your first message over again and personally, I wouldn't even consider her a friend now I read that she will not put the money towards a future trip either. You have lost your money and a friend and consider it a valuable lesson to you for $400.
> 
> Someone gave a good tip in this thread where to buy reasonable insurance too from now on.



Thank you for the advice.  On a purely emotional level, I feel betrayed, and as such, I don't feel close to her at present.  At the same time, I refuse to be guided by my emotions without trying everything I can think of to get her to see it from a different perspective.  One may ask why bother, if it takes work to get someone to see things from a perspective that many may see from the get-go?  My only answer is that on balance it's been worth it.  
At the same time, I am guided by a simple principle.  If I can't change something I ask myself whether I can live with the current situation, and if the answer is no, I move on. 
Hopefully, when I show her how other unbiased timeshare owners view the situation, she will see things differently.  If not, it will be time to move on.  

Maybe after all of this, I will become a timeshare owner.  All of you seem like great people and also seem to love owning one....So maybe it will turn out to be the end of one journey and the start of another


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 4, 2007)

geekette said:


> Add me to the list of those who wouldn't charge a friend to accompany me on a trip.  They usually kick in rental car/gas, groceries or pick up the tab on a restaurant or attraction while there.  They have offered cash and I have refused.
> 
> It's a bit different if I'm not going, tho.  In that case, it depends on how many points I spent, whether I had to exchange, etc., but I never attempt to recover anywhere near my 'true cost.'  I have on occasion sent family and friends on trips without me gratis.
> 
> I tend to believe that what goes around, comes around.



Thanks for posting geekette.  Hopefully your views and similiar views expressed by other members will help my friend realize what the real issue is.
Thus far, I have been unsuccessful because of a vested interest in the matter.

Ken


Ken


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 4, 2007)

Ken, you are now interested in buying a timeshare?  Good for you.  Buy something with low maintenance fees and very low to purchase, but only buy prime red time.  You can buy a great week for just a few hundred dollars and exchange IN to Mexico, whenever you want.  Mexico is a pretty easy exchange for a good trader week.  

Stick around and learn some more.  We love timeshare here and some of us need therapy for this addiction.  Timeshares Anonymous should be the name of the website and all of our posts should begin with........


My name is Cindy and it has been three days since I purchased my last timeshare.........    True story, three days.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 4, 2007)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Ken, you are now interested in buying a timeshare?  Good for you.  Buy something with low maintenance fees and very low to purchase, but only buy prime red time.  You can buy a great week for just a few hundred dollars and exchange IN to Mexico, whenever you want.  Mexico is a pretty easy exchange for a good trader week.
> 
> Stick around and learn some more.  We love timeshare here and some of us need therapy for this addiction.  Timeshares Anonymous should be the name of the website and all of our posts should begin with........
> 
> ...





ROFL.....thanks so much for the post Cindy.  It was a VERY refreshing change of pace... At this point, my interest has been piqued to the point where I will likely invest some time in learning more about the pros and cons (once I resolve my current situation).  After that, I may be back here  looking for help of a more pleasant nature   

Ken


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## easyrider (Sep 4, 2007)

*Corona time again*

Ken
What if I had 10 Coronas that cost me $4.00 each and you were thirsty so I offered to split one with you and you had to pay $1.00 while paid I $3.00. Sudenly it splills with no fault of either of us and we have no Corona to split.

 Your out $1.00 while Im out $3.00. My loss is greater than yours on that Corona. Since you offered to pay $1.00 to me I would feel like I should keep your dollar since we both lost , me losing more. Just because I have 9 more Coronas doesnt mean I have to split another because their mine.

I dont think your friend is really profiting from your mis-adventure and probally feels worse than you because she lost more money than you and it was her ts. 

It was both of your idea to start with so it seems you are a partner in that spilled Corona with a 33% loss compared to her 66% loss.

I agree that maybe I could  talk to the person who sold me the Coronas to start with to see if they are willing to help with anything like a new Corona, maybe even a miller, but it wasnt their fault the Corona was spilt so they will probally say so sorry very nicely.

Its just money wasted anyway and shouldnt be something that makes you resent your buddy. Maybe make nice and go to a restarunt and leave your pal the check for a few kicks and giggles. If you play that right a few times you might end up ahead and your friend can start a post about his non paying restaraunt buddy. HA HA


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## wackymother (Sep 4, 2007)

Silverfox10 said:


> ROFL.....thanks so much for the post Cindy.  It was a VERY refreshing change of pace... At this point, my interest has been piqued to the point where I will likely invest some time in learning more about the pros and cons (once I resolve my current situation).  After that, I may be back here  looking for help of a more pleasant nature
> 
> Ken



Lots of teachers have timeshares. My DH is a teacher now (second career) and we've got two timeshares that we bought in the past four years. 

The up side is that teachers have that nice long summer to take vacations...the down side is that you are traveling right when everybody in the world with children is traveling, too. But we've had some great, great vacations in places we would never have seen without timeshares. Good luck! Let us know what happens with your "friend."

BTW, a friend of ours joined us on a timeshare vacation this summer, with her young daughter. They stayed over for four days and they took everyone out to dinner at an inexpensive place on our last night.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 4, 2007)

easysider said:


> Ken
> What if I had 10 Coronas that cost me $4.00 each and you were thirsty so I offered to split one with you and you had to pay $1.00 while paid I $3.00. Sudenly it splills with no fault of either of us and we have no Corona to split.
> 
> Your out $1.00 while Im out $3.00. My loss is greater than yours on that Corona. Since you offered to pay $1.00 to me I would feel like I should keep your dollar since we both lost , me losing more. Just because I have 9 more Coronas doesnt mean I have to split another because their mine.
> ...



EasySider…….

Great subject title!!  

After I read your post, I started thinking that maybe using Coronas as an analogy was not a good idea….You are making me thirsty   

While I see your point, I have a different take…..Here’s why.  

There are two reasons, one of which deals with the difference between a TS and a Corona.  In the case of a Corona, if you share a bottle of beer with a buddy, you are definitely losing some of the beer you purchased.  In particular, you only get to drink half a beer.  Hell, I could support an argument that one would be entitled to charge half the costs under such circumstance (although I would never do so with a buddy, because by definition he is not a buddy if I charge him).  

With a TS however, the situation is different in the sense that sharing it is not taking its use away from the owner.  One can even argue that he brings a buddy along because his vacation is more enriching.    In any event, the owner doesn’t lose anything by sharing his TS with someone, while in the case of the Corona, he has lost half a bottle of beer.  This difference is significant in that in one case, you are being compensated for something you gave up.  In the other case, you are seeking to gain.  If a TS owner tries to realize a gain at his buddy’s expense, I don’t think they will be buddies for very long.  .   

The second reason deals with the nature of the transaction.  If I ask someone to pay me for a Corona, that’s a sale, and I have no right to claim ownership of the payment unless I have delivered the product, even if the failure is not my fault.    If you put down your money at a bar, and a storm knocks out electrical power, is the bar free to keep your money?  Not to my knowledge.  Even if the bar was not responsible, they have no right to keep your money if they haven’t provided the service you purchased.  Now in the case of sharing a TS, the situation may be different in that a renter may be at risk of losing his money without negotiating a Force Majeure provision. But I could never do this to a friend particularly if I haven't lost anything. 

I guess on this one we will have to agree to disagree. 


Thanks again for taking the time to offer your views.  


Ken


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 4, 2007)

wackymother said:


> Lots of teachers have timeshares. My DH is a teacher now (second career) and we've got two timeshares that we bought in the past four years.
> 
> The up side is that teachers have that nice long summer to take vacations...the down side is that you are traveling right when everybody in the world with children is traveling, too. But we've had some great, great vacations in places we would never have seen without timeshares. Good luck! Let us know what happens with your "friend."
> 
> BTW, a friend of ours joined us on a timeshare vacation this summer, with her young daughter. They stayed over for four days and they took everyone out to dinner at an inexpensive place on our last night.



Thanks for the information WM...

If I do get "hooked" on the idea of a timeshare, I won't have a problem with schedules.  Although my friend is a teacher, I am retired and have complete flexibility as to scheduling.  At the same time however, it doesn't help too much to have this flexibility if everyone else is restricted, because unless I want to go by myself, I still have to work around the schedules of friends and family.  

I think my biggest concern has to do with the horror stories I sometimes hear about people rueing the day the purchased a timeshare.  I have spent a little time reading some of the other threads in the Newbies section, and it seems that one has to be a fairly astute buyer when considering a timeshare.  I have also learned how valuable TUG can be to anyone involved in timeshare.  

I haven't mentioned this before because it's not relevant to the situation I am trying to resolve, but our reservations in Cancun was with NH International,  and in doing some research, I found that some timeshare owners were so offended by the practices of the TM organization that they created their own website to warn others.  That's the kind of thing that has always kept me from seriously looking into them.  Over the years, I have received countless invitations for the free trips, but never accepted one because of the stories I heard about the pressure exerted by the TS salesforce.  But in general, the members here seem to be very positive about timeshares, and that has stimulated my interest.  I have already learned not to go through a developer.......lol

Ken


Ken


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## Timeshare Von (Sep 4, 2007)

Silverfox10 said:


> What this means is that even if the TS depreciates to nothing over 30 years, it is not an operating cost.



LOL Ken . . . more like 30 minutes for many timeshares, when you consider that you can buy points in say Wyndham for pennies on the dollar which will get you into all of the same resorts as those points purchased at a very high premium directly from them.


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 4, 2007)

Timeshare Von said:


> LOL Ken . . . more like 30 minutes for many timeshares, when you consider that you can buy points in say Wyndham for pennies on the dollar which will get you into all of the same resorts as those points purchased at a very high premium directly from them.



Wow!!  That's scary, Yvonne.....If you have the time, I would love to learn what causes such losses, and any information you care to share will be welcomed.  

Ken


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## bogey21 (Sep 5, 2007)

geekette said:


> Pay the $400 and move on.



I agree and add "Have a long memory".  

GEORGE


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## Timeshare Von (Sep 5, 2007)

Silverfox10 said:


> Wow!!  That's scary, Yvonne.....If you have the time, I would love to learn what causes such losses, and any information you care to share will be welcomed.  Ken



It won't take much time at all Ken . . .

Essentially the developers of TS have a huge market-up on them primarily due to the high marketing & advertising costs incurred to sell timeshares in their current model.  I don't have exact numbers . . . but the gist of it is that they have to pay a lot of people to get prospects into the sales presentation where they have a shot to sell.  Consider this . . .

Often there is the off-site person who snarfs up the unsuspecting to come to the 90 minute presentation.  This may be the kiosk you pass as you get off the Shrek 4 ride at Universal Studios or outside of the entrance to DAYTONA USA, an "attractions booth" in a heavily trafficked area on the main drag of a heavily populated timeshare area (Branson, Williamsburg and of course Orlando come to mind), the "timeshare whores" who literally peddle the presentation on the street corners, a desk at the local Dennys (or Bob Evans), or the "activities concierge at the resort itself.  These off-site solicitors are paid on a per person basis for everyone individual who signs up for and attends a TS sales presentation.

The timeshare sales offices are typically pretty fancy smancy, some nicer than others with everything from water and cookies (a BlueGreen tour we once took) to a full cooked to order breakfast (Palace Resorts in Cancun).  This stuff obviously costs money.  Not to mention the large sales and support staff.

Speaking of the sales staff, most are paid through rather high percentage commissions.  I once had a sales rep for the "old" Fairfield tell me that they make 30% of all binding sales (i.e., not including those that are subsequently rescinded) and that if they achieve a certain dollar level for the year, they receive a higher percentage (up to 50%!) as additional incentives/bonuses.

Of course, the other sales "team" has to get a cut of the action too.  So add the "inventory manager" . . . "final hammer" . . . "the closer" . . . and the title & deeding folks and you can pretty quickly see this is a high overhead operation.

Oh yeah, I nearly forgot about the gifts they use to entice you for your 90 minutes (which is rarely "just" 90 minutes).  We've received everything from a free tour of a local attraction with a value of around $50 total . . . to $200 cold hard cash . . . and everything in between.  Sometimes the gift itself is a subsidized vacation to a timeshare area like Las Vegas, Orlando, Branson, Willaimsburg, etc.  They put you up in an "OK" local hotel, sometimes even the resort itself . . . and often throw in another trinket or two.  We did Branson with a well known TS developer.  We paid $49 or $59 for the 3 days/2 nights package which including hotel accommodations in the Branson strip.  After our tour, we received $50 in gift cards to a major retail outlet essentially making our weekend vacation a free experience for two hours of our time.  Many years ago, I received four days/three nights in Las Vegas plus two sets of show tickets for two, in exchange for my/our time.  We figured the "value" of that package was easily $400.

Behind the scenes most of these companies have huge corporate infrastructures necessary to handle a variety of administrative and financial aspects of timeshare management (not the individual resort management, as that is typically overseen and managed by the property owners association - the POA).

So as I hopefully have shown, there are a lot of costs that drive up the retail sales price for timeshares purchased directly from the developer.

What has happened, especially with TS in the USA is that many who bought in the 80's and even early 90's have experienced changes in their lives and lifestyle.  That timeshare vacation they looked forward to every year, simply doesn't happen because of changes in financial situations, increases in family size (having kids) or perhaps the loss of the ability to travel in general due to health issues or the loss of a spouse.  There are many TS owners who for whatever the reason, simply don't use their ownership and at some point in time, tire of the continual year to year payment of MF's . . . which oh by the way have increased signficantly over time . . . so they simply look for someone to take the financial obligation off their hands.  Many just give them away . . . others pay someone else (like a post card company) to take the TS off their hands . . . some try to recoup their "investment" having bought into the "it's real estate" thinking that they at least retained their value only to become frustrated and ultimately unload it in anyway they can.

At this point in the supply & demand chain, it becomes a buyers' market and people who want out of TS ownership are at a big disadvantage, often just happy to be out from under the annual MF's and special assessments.  Just take a look at the eBay closing sales to get a general feel for how little many timeshares are going for these days.

If you are seriously considering a purchase, you should really do a more thorough reading of the files and forums here.  You'll get a lot of very good information, to include advice to only buy resale.  Before you buy, however, you need to have a pretty decent understanding about how you want to use your vacation ownership and forecast as best you can, what your life will look like in five, ten or 20 years.  Some buy for the future when kids are grown and retirement is near.  Others buy with the goal of providing an outstanding family vacation experience for their family, for however long, until the kids are grown and married or whatever.

This has turned out to be more of a thesis than anything, and based on my own personal experiences and opinions.  Ask ten TS owners the same question . . . you'll probably get three of four differing perspectives with the remaining people having a close variation.

Good luck in your journey for knowledge as you consider whether or not timeshare ownership is for you. 

p.s.  I hope this makes some sense, as it is late and I should have gone to bed an hour ago


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## djs (Sep 5, 2007)

I think all of us owners handle friends traveling with us differently.  Some on this board might own multiple weeks and be in a position to have friends accompany them as their guest.  Others (and this is the camp I'm in) might take their MF, exchange fee and various other fees associated with the exchange and say "this is the total cost, now lets come up with a way to split it."  The way I look at it, the friends going away with me are getting a great deal in that if they were to book similar accommodations they most likely would pay a lot more.  For me it's not a matter of "they should have to pay their share" but I'm just not in a position to "give" away my weeks.  Sure I'd love to be able to, and some day surely will.  

Another way to look at this is that if I decided to go away with friends and we all booked a package at some resort (not going through the timeshare process) and then had to cancel, we'd all be out our money.  Now if I had booked said resort because it was easier to do that, I'd expect to be paid by whoever I was traveling with.

To give a much shorter version of what I've written, I guess I'd say that I look at my timeshare, and the exchange process, as a way to get pretty nice accommodations (generally 2B) for somewhere around $500 for a week.  It's not a money maker whatsoever.


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## easyrider (Sep 5, 2007)

*I agree with DJS*

You should be considering the ts as a resort vacation that you both lost out on due to weather. Ownership shouldnt matter. You have to realize that your not staying at your friends house. This is a vacation WEEK that you agreed to. 
Your only intrest in this post seems to be to gather an opinion to screw your friend over the money you lost on a vacation that you helped plan. I think your friend is glad she got your $400.00 up front because you probally wouldnt give it to her now. You would probally argue that since you didnt go you shouldnt have to pay. I hope you share all opinions instead of cherry picking the ones that suite you if you are to use this forum for a means of confronting your (FRIEND).


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## jmzf1958 (Sep 5, 2007)

I totally agree with DJS and easysider.  It would have been a great deal
for the op if they had been able to go on vacation as planned.  I also think
the op should have thought of getting trip insurance, perhaps insisted on it,
even if the owner didn't think it was necessary.  I see nothing wrong with the
owner and the op sharing the cost of the maintenance and taxes ($800),
particularly since the owner shelled out the money to BUY the timeshare in
the first place.  She may have spent a lot of money for it, or not.  The op
knew she had to use the timeshare by a certain date or would lose the week,
and it seems to me he's not so much a guest of hers as a friend who decided 
to go on vacation with her.  In that case, expenses should be shared.
Also, in my opinion, this topic has been going on way too long!


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## Htoo0 (Sep 5, 2007)

Last year friends invited us to spend a weekend in a rented high-end cabin. We offered to split the cost but they refused as they were going anyway so this year we invited them.  Two days before our week-end he goes to the hospital in severe pain. (He's OK now, thanks). We canceled the week-end but lost $300. They offered to pay it but of course we said no because it's not like they simply changed their minds. Point is, unexpected things happen beyond our control and we just have to deal with it. What's a friendship worth?


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## Silverfox10 (Sep 5, 2007)

*Thank you all*

Easysider, 

When I first decided to seek the opinions of other TS owners, a friend advised that I would probably find opinions on both side of the issue, and I responded by stating that I wanted to hear opinions holding to the opposite view, because they might offer  insights that I was overlooking.  So when you and others have expressed views different from my own, I have sought to understand them, and in the process, raise the problems I had in endorsing your views. This was not intended to be confrontational, but was intended to address the specific problems.  

Because you and others have been kind enough to share your thoughts with me, I have gained the insights I was seeking   

Any TS owner who loses an income from a rental has incurred a cost, but this cost is called an opportunity cost, as opposed to an out of pocket cost.  Thus, if you anticipated an income from your TS and did not receive it, the cost you incurred was an opportunity cost, rather than an out-of- pocket cost.  The most valuable lesson I have learned is that TS owners place different values on opportunity costs, and those who hold to the view that the money should be kept believe they should not incur this opportunity cost.  

While I have always subscribed to the view that lost opportunities to derive income should rightfully be treated as opportunity costs, I have also held to the view that circumstances dictate when it is appropriate to recover these costs and when it is appropriate to simply write them off as a lost opportunity.  My views haven’t changed in this regard, but you willingness to engage in a dialogue supporting your position has made me realize that it all comes down to the value we place on recovering these costs.  In our decision making, we assign weights to the various factors involved in the decision making process and if we assign different weights, we are not going to see eye to eye no matter how cogent the arguments are.  That’s an invaluable lesson, and your defense of your position was instrumental in helping me see this, Easysider.  So thank you very much.  

I now realize that attempting to show my friend another perspective will be an exercise in futility, and if she insists on keeping the money I plan to follow the advice of those who suggested I walk away from the money and the friendship.  

In closing I would like to once again express my gratitude to all of you who were kind enough to share your thoughts with me.  I never expected to encounter such a warm, friendly group of people, and as I mentioned in a recent post, your positive views about timeshares has changed the negative perception I held to the extent that I plan to learn more about them, and I may be back asking for help of a more pleasant nature.

Sincerely,  
Ken


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## Mel (Sep 5, 2007)

Ken, since you are considering a purchase, and the possibility of taking other friends with you, I hope you keep this discussion in mind.  At some point, you might be on the other side of such a conflict.

While I agree that trying to change your friend's mind will be futile, I don't think it has to mean an end to the friendship.  Instead of talking to her to try to convince her that she should change her mind, perhaps you can talk with her about how you feel about her decision - that you will honor her decision to keep the money, but that you are hurt by it.  She deserves that perspective before you simply cut off the friendship.

Perhaps after a bit of healing, you can remain friend, and keep in mind that in the future you should discuss possibile scenarios before they happen.  If you had discussed it ahead of time.  And remember that all travelers can obtain travel insurance - it doesn't have to be as part of a travel package.

The question I would ask you friend is what would have happened if you had not agreed to go on the trip with her?  Would she have gone without you, or was there actually some other option open to her.  Would she be out the same amount of money?  (If she had reserved a smaller unit, only for herself, would her fee have been less?).  I think she is treating this as a "business transaction", where you subleased half of her unit while you view it as a simple trip with a friend. I think the problem lies in her assumtion that you understood the "risk" you were taking on.

I understand your perspective, that a timeshare owner fronts the risk - I pay my fees, but might not get to use my week if the resort is uninhabitable.  The problem is that it wasn't.  If you had pooled your money and rented a room at prevailing resort rates, you could cancel, but if you had rented from another owner, at a discount, your choice to cancel the trip would probably not result in a refund.  You are getting a deep discount because you are assuming some of the risk.  With a vacation club, it the _RESORT_ makes the decision to cancel your vacation due to weather, you might be offered an alternative - even if it extends past your use year.

The other thing I wonder - how would the knowledge that you would not get a refund have colored your decision to cancel the trip?    When you left, your destination was a likely path, but was not a certainty - would you have gone and considered it an adventure since the money was already spent?


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## icydog (Sep 5, 2007)

I have never charge anyone maintenance fees but I have accepted 1/2 of the exchange fees up to $100. It makes my guest feel like they are contributing while it never hurts them financially. I would rather have a nice dinner than the money but some insist. They don't even know what my costs are. I have to pay MFs if they go or if they stay home so why saddle them with my costs?
They actually think I pay $200 for the week so why disappraise them of that thought and of their joy in giving me $100 for a week (in a two or three bdrm condo at a Marriott, DVC or the like).  

In your case you agreed to give her $400 already so you must suck up the loss. But never do it again.


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## taffy19 (Sep 5, 2007)

Both Mel and icydog are right so one more comment from me. The interesting question to ask yourself would be this. Would the lady (your friend) have booked this trip if you hadn't agreed to pay half the fee? She may have let the week expire worthless and lost her maintenance fees but nothing more. Since you offered to share half the fees with her, she decided to pay the additional exchange fee to take the week in Mexico but your trip didn't materialize so she feels that you should bear half of the loss that both of you experienced. Let's be honest, her loss is more than $400. 

If she would have booked this trip anyway and have gone by herself, then the loss should have been carried by her but being a good friend, you would have offered to help her pay for some of the loss. If I were in your shoes, I would let her keep the $400 and move on and decide if she is still a friend or not. She may see it completely different from you. Don't you hate to lose a good friend over $400? I did once over less money than that. I let my friend use my credit card so she could take advantage of a sale but she never paid me back when my monthly bill came in. This was many years ago (1960s) and it was the end of our good friendship and I had to change my cc number too so she wouldn't charge more against my account. I learned a lesson from that.

After reading all these posts here, I hope all of us have learned a lesson too. If you charge your family or friends, make a written contract for the protection of both parties and to refer back to when something like this happens.

Since we love to have our family or friends come along, we will continue not charging them but we will ask them in writing from now on to take insurance out as so much is at stake today. You can't depend on the weather or airline carriers anymore and medical emergencies can happen too when people are older. I wouldn't like to be held responsible for that in any way but most of our family and friends in Europe do this automatically. Over there you can insure yourself for a whole year but I still haven't found a company that let us do this here. Does anyone know of a company like that?

One more suggestion from me to you and that is, don't buy a timeshare in Mexico unless you buy it dirt cheap in the re-sale market or better yet, rent it from a timeshare owner, who is desperate as he cannot go himself one year, and you help him pay his maintenance fees. Most likely, he won't even recover all his fees.

Buy a cheap timeshare in this country and you will be able to trade into Mexico most of the year. However, now these Mexican resorts are requiring mandatory all-inclusive fees for meals and drinks and these fees are often ridiculous but there are some resorts yet where this is not required. If you buy, find one of these resorts. The mandatory A-I fees are a complete rip-off to the American tourist. I still can't figure out who is the guilty party here. Is it the resort or is it RCI?

Find out in this forum what resorts do not have a mandatory all-inclusive fee for meals and drinks, if you want to buy there. We own at one of these resorts but who says that they are not changing tomorrow and start charging these fees so I won't recommend any of them. I know of one other resort too but personally, I don't recommend buying at any resort in Mexico today. JMHO. *BUY A TIMESHARE IN THE USA!!!!*


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## wbtimesharer (Sep 5, 2007)

Silverfox10 said:


> John,
> 
> You are right.  She was going to lose it if she didn't use it by the end of August.
> 
> ...



Ken,

I side with you on this one.  If you had gone and then asked for the money back that is one thing.  However, you were doing her a favor by taking the week in an area she is familiar with and she should have at least mentioned up front that hurricanes could cause the August trip to be cancelled.  I would think that she should at least split the difference of the $400 with the $200 being for her time and effort or give you a deal on a trip next year if she has availability.

The friendship thing goes both ways.

Bill


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## wbtimesharer (Sep 5, 2007)

Silverfox10 said:


> Yvonne and UWSurfer,
> 
> Thank you very much for offering your views regarding my situation.
> 
> ...



Ken,

I think you mean "purchase a half interest in her 2007 occupancy of the timeshare".  Unless she expects you to pay half the ongoing MF each year you did not buy a share in anything only rented a week from her.

Bill


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## Kay H (Sep 6, 2007)

I find it hard to believe that there are 78 posts on this subject.  Aren't you beating a dead horse?  Forget the $400.  You aren't going to budge and neither is your friend.  Move on, count this as a $400 lesson and only you can decide whether it is worth maintaining your friendship with this person.


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## Patri (Sep 6, 2007)

Agree. I had to skip two pages of posts. The friendship is dead either way.


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## Bill4728 (Sep 6, 2007)

As was said somewhere in these many, many posts. _What should be happening is that you should be insisiting that your friend keep the money. And your friend should be insisting that you take the money back._

It is only $400.


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## canuck89 (Sep 7, 2007)

*normal rental practice?*

Hi -

Don't know if this is the right place to ask - perhaps this is covered elsewhere and a TUG BBS savvy person can direct me.....

What normally happens if you HAVE rented out a TS week, and then the property is non-usable due to weather or a problem with the building?  

I am guessing the MF are still billed to you, but are you to reimburse the party who rented from you, since you are kind of the "landlord"?

What happens if the property is unusable when YOU are booked to go there?

Thanks!


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## brucecz (Sep 7, 2007)

Yes, I would refund the just rental money as I state in our rental agreements.  

To your second question yes you in most cases still have to pay your maintenannces fees and any special assessments.

Bruce


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## acesgame (Sep 7, 2007)

At first I thought the OP was the most stubborn person and just needed to get over himself.  

Then, I was mad at his friend, but couldn't believe anyone would end a friendship over a miscommunication (which I believe this is).

Then I thought, if I was the female friend and I saw how this man was portraying me(whether it is true or not, she also believes that she is right) to other people behind my back I would throw his crummy $400 back in his face and be hurt forever.  

But to flog a dead horse, If I offer a vacation with me I don't accept money because most of the people I offer to wouldn't understand the real cost and don't take vacations like we do as TS owners do.  It would feel like someone offering you 25 cents for $5 item at a garage sale.  I would rather just give it away to some deserving soul.  You know the old goes around, comes around saying.  However, If a friend saw how much fun we have on vacations and they mentioned that they would like to be able to go sometime, then I might discuss getaways or rental type situation with appropriate costs split according to how much space etc.  

We have traveled with church friends who we invited and did not charge and my best friend who has many children and needs her own unit which we provided at no cost.  She offered and I told her since I invited them I didn't expect them to pay.  They tried to make up for it by picking up the check at dinner a couple of times.  However, the company we gained was worth the expense we incurred in my eyes.  We do not have children, so I don't know what I would do if it were grown children.... For some reason we always tend to feel entitled to any comforts old mom and dad have without acting like responsible grown ups.  My parents do/did so much for us way into our twenties that I have been trying to pay them back with free vacations etc. but they won't even take a gallon of milk without pulling out their wallets.


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## JimJ (Sep 9, 2007)

I finally read all the posts here and tried to tally up the pros and cons.  While I had to make some judgment calls, it appears as if there are 15 who feel as if Ken shares the risk and thus should eat the $400 while only 5 feel the t/s owner should absorb the whole loss.  In any case, the odds of Ken getting any money back appear to be slim.


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## AKFisher (Sep 11, 2007)

His friend has to the maintenance fee every year regardless, and SHOULD NOT have asked him to pay to begin with.


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## talkamotta (Sep 19, 2007)

Anytime a vacation is planned there is a certain amount of risk; health, work situations, and of course weather.  If you had gotten sick would you still think that she should cover your expenses?   If you go to Cancun in August the risk is higher for hurricanes, so insurance would be well advised.  

You both decided to go together and split the costs.  The weather wasnt her fault either.  It is just the cost of traveling, sometimes it sucks. 

Dont let this get in the way of a good friendship.


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## bobcat (Sep 19, 2007)

Silverfox10 said:


> I think I need to be a little clearer as to the issue I as I see it.
> 
> From a legal point of view, there are some sound reasons to believe that a court would rule that the money has to be returned, but even if it did, I still lose.
> 
> ...



Are you sure she is a friend.????   Friends do not hurt other friends. I would cross her off your list, it is her loss.


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