# Owner Advocacy Forum



## ecwinch (Jul 30, 2009)

Do you think it makes sense to have a dedicated forum for owner advocacy issues? Owner Advocacy defined as "Issues and Actions related to Owners Rights and HOA Governance"

A forum where issues like the following can be discussed:

 - pending and active legal actions related to timesharing
 - issues with HOA governance
 - HOA election issues

 ... I am sure others have additions to that list.

It seems like there is a lot activity in that area right now, with a lot of resorts wrestling with those issues.

It seems to be a trend related to the economy, owners defaulting, and in particular, resorts were leverage is involved. Right now in the NE, you have three resorts where the developer controlled resorts are making questionable utilization of the assessment process.

And you have the RCI Exchange suit, the action with Ocean Club, two cases involving WorldMark, a resort in HI, Festiva, and I hear rumors of something with Wyndham FSP/Club.  

Would it make sense to consolidate all those threads in one area. Perhaps were some stickies might be added pointing to owner advocacy resources and state timeshare laws. 

I think it would assist concerned owners groups to see what is going on at other resorts. Currently you have to hunt and peck in a variety of locations to find threads pertaining to owner advocacy. 

I recognize a challenge in moderating the thread, but think that issue is mitigated to some degree. If a thread is created in one of the regional or network specific forums, I think it can be moved and a stub left in the regional thread pointing to the owner advocacy forum.

Just curious on hearing what others see as  the pro's and con's of that idea.


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## TUGBrian (Jul 30, 2009)

the entire site exists for that, and unfortunately I dont see enough threads of the type to warrant its own forum at this time.


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## DeniseM (Jul 30, 2009)

I think it would be confusing to mix up the topics from different resort systems - I think it's better to leave them in the forum that is dedicated to that resort system.


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## ecwinch (Jul 30, 2009)

Brian/Denise,

I can understand the POV.

Can you guide me on what is the best forum to create a thread surrounding owner advocacy issues, mainly how to form a concerned owners group and where to find state timeshare laws?

I think it would help owners in situations  like that to see what others have done. When I identify existing threads of that nature, I could create a link to them. 

Thanks


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## DeniseM (Jul 30, 2009)

Can you please define "concerned owner group"?


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## TUGBrian (Jul 30, 2009)

TUG has always invited HOA's to participate on TUG, and we would provide them their own forum if necessary.  However to date none have officially made this request.


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## ecwinch (Jul 30, 2009)

DeniseM said:


> Can you please define "concerned owner group"?



A group of owners that is concerned that owners rights are not being properly respected in the operation of the HOA or governing body. The group organizes to either to affect a change in the direction of the governing body, or to provide oversight, ensuring that owner rights are respected 

Typically involving a resort where the governing body is controlled by the developer, or a majority of the governing body have potential conflict of interests that create the appearance of impropriority. But not always.


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## ecwinch (Jul 30, 2009)

TUGBrian said:


> TUG has always invited HOA's to participate on TUG, and we would provide them their own forum if necessary.  However to date none have officially made this request.



And I think that is a great thing and a very generous offer. It is unfortunate that more HOA's do not seek the benefit you generously are offering.


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## ecwinch (Jul 31, 2009)

I am guessing that Buying, Selling, and Renting is the best place to start the Owner Advocacy thread. 

But that does not seem to be on-topic.  Any suggestions?


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## Htoo0 (Jul 31, 2009)

Believe it or not it seems some owners think the best thing to do is 'hide' any negatives lest it devalue their weeks. However, I have always believed secrecy only allows abuses to continue and perhaps worsen to the point of catastrophic proportions. If people put their concerns on record and they are legitimate I would think it puts pressure on the resort to correct the problem(s) to protect sales. (Assuming they are not sold out.) But I'm certainly not an expert in such matters so maybe I'm wrong.


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## ecwinch (Jul 31, 2009)

Htoo0 said:


> Believe it or not it seems some owners think the best thing to do is 'hide' any negatives lest it devalue their weeks. However, I have always believed secrecy only allows abuses to continue and perhaps worsen to the point of catastrophic proportions. If people put their concerns on record and they are legitimate I would think it puts pressure on the resort to correct the problem(s) to protect sales. (Assuming they are not sold out.) But I'm certainly not an expert in such matters so maybe I'm wrong.



I understand the logic that you do not want "negative" information to get out about an asset you own, since it might impact the value.

But I agree with you, hiding the problem just allows it to fester and get worse. Likewise if as a seller you know that their are major problems with the HOA, I know I would have a problem selling without disclosing that issue. I can appreciate that others may have a lesser standard.

I also think we are going to see more of these issues in the next 12 months. I think a cycle is playing out here, as owners walk-away from their obligations, timeshare sales are down, and leveraged developers. It is putting a lot of pressure on smaller developers and some are going to attempt to tap the most accessible source of capital they have - the HOA. 

It is ironic, because I found an article that discussed the same thing - from 1989.

And right now, there is no other internet resource with substantial information on Owners Rights and Advocacy Issues.


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## TUGBrian (Jul 31, 2009)

ecwinch said:


> I am guessing that Buying, Selling, and Renting is the best place to start the Owner Advocacy thread.
> 
> But that does not seem to be on-topic.  Any suggestions?



probably in the area forum the resort is located?


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## ecwinch (Jul 31, 2009)

TUGBrian said:


> probably in the area forum the resort is located?




Thanks.

But I mean a thread not related to a particular resort, but a thread where general information and resources regarding the topic can be complied, and some discussion of techniques and tips relating to the topic can occur.


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## ecwinch (Aug 1, 2009)

ecwinch said:


> Thanks.
> 
> But I mean a thread not related to a particular resort, but a thread where general information and resources regarding the topic can be complied, and some discussion of techniques and tips relating to the topic can occur.



Consider my question and suggestion withdrawn. I am sensing a reticence that TUG needs something like this.

I'll explore other avenues for my objective.... thks


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## TUGBrian (Aug 1, 2009)

I guess I dont understand why you need a new forum for one thread?


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## e.bram (Aug 1, 2009)

I agree with ecwinch. A forum which just dealt with real or perceived un fairness by HOAs, management companies, BODs,pints systemas and clubs toward the unenpowered owners, without the dillution of other issues. Sort of ARDA for owners only, maybe even funded to take action if necessary.


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## DeniseM (Aug 2, 2009)

ecwinch said:


> Consider my question and suggestion withdrawn. I am sensing a reticence that TUG needs something like this.
> 
> I'll explore other avenues for my objective.... thks



Eric - I don't think it's that, I think it's more that we don't understand how this will be different than info. that's already shared on TUG.  For instance, if I have a Starwood problem/issue - I would expect it to be discussed on the Starwood forum, where most of the Starwood owners post.  I don't see how a forum that basically mixes up all the issues from all resort systems would be an improvement.  I applaud your desire to take action - I just don't understand how it will be different and better than the way info. is shared now.


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## ecwinch (Aug 2, 2009)

DeniseM said:


> Eric - I don't think it's that, I think it's more that we don't understand how this will be different than info. that's already shared on TUG.  For instance, if I have a Starwood problem/issue - I would expect it to be discussed on the Starwood forum, where most of the Starwood owners post.  I don't see how a forum that basically mixes up all the issues from all resort systems would be an improvement.  I applaud your desire to take action - I just don't understand how it will be different and better than the way info. is shared now.



I am looking to put together a thread that will consolidate some information on how to combat a developer controlled HOA. A resource that concerned owners can refer to, with some collective wisdom on how to proceed. Some basic things like:

 - How to organize a concerned owner group
 - What a Declaration document means
 - What are By-Laws and how to understand your rights
 - How to use state corporation laws to assert your rights 
 - Strategies for getting state/local government officials involved
 - How to file a complaint with the State AG
 - Where to find the state regulations that apply to timeshares

and like resources. 

Maybe it is just my interest in the subject, but I think we are seeing more of these issues then I can recall in the past. I would like to see a thread developed that collects some of this information in one place, and serves as a resource for owners that find themselves in a situation where their rights are being ignored OR the developer is abusing their assessment powers. When the only resource is in the regional forums, I think it is more difficult for owners to know what to do. They have no way to learn from the experiences of  other TUG members that have found themselves in similar situations. 

Right now some of this information is available, but it is all over the forum. I would like to find a way to consolidate it. If nothing else, a thread that has links to past threads of similar issues, so people can see what others have done.

I do not think it precludes someone from creating a thread in a regional forum on the issue. But I think those threads are more about contacting other owners and events that are happening. But where does the core group that is trying to organize that effort go to for resource information and strategy tips?

The focus being more on small independent resorts and not the chains.


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## TUGBrian (Aug 2, 2009)

sounds like it would be better suited as an advice article?


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## e.bram (Aug 2, 2009)

Yes, but a forum would allow continuous updating and  infusion of new ideas, combating abuse by the above named entities(see my first post), not just mix ie. what is the best unit a a TS with good information which is applicable to combat  corruption in all systems.


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## alwysonvac (Aug 2, 2009)

ecwinch said:


> I am looking to put together a thread that will consolidate some information on how to combat a developer controlled HOA. A resource that concerned owners can refer to, with some collective wisdom on how to proceed. Some basic things like:
> 
> - How to organize a concerned owner group
> - What a Declaration document means
> ...



Just a suggestion....

Perhaps write something up and create a thread titled Owners Advocacy with consecutive posts like this one done by CatLovers for Shell Vacation Club - see http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44941. 
TIP: Just create your document before creating the TUG thread then copy the topics one by one into individual posts like CatLover did in the link above


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## e.bram (Aug 2, 2009)

Much to complicated.


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## TUGBrian (Aug 2, 2009)

why wouldnt the newbies section or the lounge work?


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## ecwinch (Aug 2, 2009)

Brian,

I take the Lounge to be a place for discussions related to non-timeshare discussions, so I will take your advice and start the thread in the Newbies section. 

The topic matter does seem a little advanced to be in the Newbies section, but if you feel that is the appropriate place, that is where I will go.

In terms of the advice article, I think e.brams comments are appropriate. For the time being I think I will create an off-site blog to assemble those resources, and evaluate the merits of an article at a latter date. I think some people have a slight apprehendsion to click on off-site links, but that is minor.

I appreciate your feedback, and will be starting the thread in the next few days.

Thanks


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## TUGBrian (Aug 2, 2009)

Im not trying to be overly difficult, and wish to accomodate you as best I can.  Believe me, If it were reasonable id throw up a new forum for every single topic area requested, but it just becomes unruly and cluttered (IMO) with so many different forums.


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## e.bram (Aug 2, 2009)

Eric:
Try TS4MS. Maybe Frank will be more receptive to the concept..


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## ecwinch (Aug 2, 2009)

TUGBrian said:


> Im not trying to be overly difficult, and wish to accomodate you as best I can.  Believe me, If it were reasonable id throw up a new forum for every single topic area requested, but it just becomes unruly and cluttered (IMO) with so many different forums.



Brian, I understand and appreciate that you need to balance things out. I will give your suggestion a go, and perhaps  some point in future, you will find the idea is more feasible.

My withdrawal post was in case you felt that this was a issue of interest to TUG members, but maybe just a little over the line from the core mission. Or if you had reservations about TUG becoming too political. I think those all would be things you have to weigh.

And e.brams, I appreciate the suggestion. If I am going to do this, then I want to do it where it will make the most impact. Who knows, I could start the thread/blog, and it could fail to attract any contributors or help anyone. Then Brian or Frank has this seldom used and inactive forum sitting there. 

On balance, I agree with the thread approach.


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## TUGBrian (Aug 2, 2009)

you are welcome to start it wherever you wish or feel it will get the most views, if it turns into something requiring its own forum (ie it gets enough posts/traffic/participation/etc) then we will accomodate with its own forum.


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## Htoo0 (Aug 2, 2009)

To the OP: So you are referring to a place 'owners' can go to get advice and help when having disputes with resorts in general?  Such as purchasing a non-existent unit at a resort. (Like pre-construction purchases which then never occur.) Promises (hopefully in writing) which are not honored. Problems rescinding. Not being able to reserve a week or type of unit promised. Basically one central site vs separate posts for each problem. Perhaps one monitored by legal types and/or experts who can give somewhat quantified advise rather than personal opinions. I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of exactly what it is you're attempting to set up.


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## ecwinch (Aug 3, 2009)

Htoo0 said:


> To the OP: So you are referring to a place 'owners' can go to get advice and help when having disputes with resorts in general?  Such as purchasing a non-existent unit at a resort. (Like pre-construction purchases which then never occur.) Promises (hopefully in writing) which are not honored. Problems rescinding. Not being able to reserve a week or type of unit promised. Basically one central site vs separate posts for each problem. Perhaps one monitored by legal types and/or experts who can give somewhat quantified advise rather than personal opinions. I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of exactly what it is you're attempting to set up.



No. Those are issues with the developer. I am thinking more about Owner Rights, HOA Governance, etc.

I think I would classify the items you mention as consumer rights or consumer fraud actions.

For instance on TUG right now we have:

Morritts
Pollard Brook
Sandcastle
Southcape
MVCI Aruba Ocean Club

threads all started by concerned owners seeking to contact other owners, and then the thread became discussions about advice in asserting their rights at their resort. Things like contacting other owners, inspecting records, filing complaints with the AG, obtaining governing documents, researching public records, reading the By-Laws, etc.

I think it would be helpful for people to also see previous threads on prior actions on TUG - like the Bluebeards case. I am sure there are more threads like that out there, but I envision having a thread where some of this can be consolidated, so owners do not have to rely on their ability to stumble across it.


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## Carolinian (Aug 3, 2009)

I think Eric has a good idea.  We have had some concerned owners groups overthrow developer control or management control at several resorts on the OBX, and it has happened at a resort I owned at in SA as well.  There is one remaining developer that it needs to happen to on the OBX.

Many of the issues and techniques to deal with them are the same or at least similar from resort to resort.  Groups can learn from and help each other as they strive for democratic homeowner control at their resorts.  I think putting all of these issues one place is a great idea.


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## Htoo0 (Aug 3, 2009)

OK, guess that's a little clearer now. Thanks. Although I would say in the case of morritts it's pretty much one and the same. It's set up so the developer is the HOA and makes all the rules. In fact, I contend the purchase agreement is not worth the paper it's written on as the by-laws apparently supersede anything in the contract and can be changed by the HOA (developer) as he sees fit. (Just wish I had known about the by-laws at time of purchase but it seems there was a time when purchasers were not informed of or given a copy of the by-laws, only the purchase agreement.)


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## ecwinch (Aug 3, 2009)

Htoo0 said:


> OK, guess that's a little clearer now. Thanks. Although I would say in the case of morritts it's pretty much one and the same. It's set up so the developer is the HOA and makes all the rules. In fact, I contend the purchase agreement is not worth the paper it's written on as the by-laws apparently supersede anything in the contract and can be changed by the HOA (developer) as he sees fit. (Just wish I had known about the by-laws at time of purchase but it seems there was a time when purchasers were not informed of or given a copy of the by-laws, only the purchase agreement.)



I would classify your initial question as issues related to the purchase, rather than issues related to on-going ownership. And your observation about Morritts is correct and illustrates the distinction.

The purchase agreement typically just spells out the purchase of the timeshare interval. Once it is consumated, you own the property. This thread would be more focused on your rights as a member of a HOA, ie. from the by-laws as an owner of that property. And how to react if you feel your rights are being ignored or abused.

For once you own the property, the Governing Documents of the HOA are the only thing that matters. That is the document that outlines your legal rights as a owner of the property. Supplemented by state and local law of course.

I think the thread will be called:  *The Concerned Owner: How to assert your owner rights in your HOA.*

Open to any suggestions.


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## jacknsara (Aug 3, 2009)

ecwinch said:


> ... ... Open to any suggestions.


Hello,
How about HOA Governance & Preservation of Owners Rights 
Jack


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## ecwinch (Aug 4, 2009)

TUGBrian said:


> TUG has always invited HOA's to participate on TUG, and we would provide them their own forum if necessary.  However to date none have officially made this request.



Brian,

Does this offer only apply to HOA's, or does it extend to concerned owners groups?

Thanks


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## TUGBrian (Aug 4, 2009)

It would depend on how many people were in said group, and what sort of activity the forum would get.

Im always willing to create a new forum that will be used regularly and provide hundreds of threads and or new topics...as its needed.

The Disney forum is a good example, they are nearly at the point where they will get bumped up to the main page with their own forum.


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## ecwinch (Aug 4, 2009)

jacknsara said:


> Hello,
> How about HOA Governance & Preservation of Owners Rights
> Jack



Jack,

I had thought about HOA Governance, but do not want someone to infer that it is for HOA's to discuss how to operate. Especially since it is just one thread, and not a forum. I like the Owner Rights part, let me find a way to work that in.

Thanks for the suggestion.


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## ecwinch (Aug 4, 2009)

TUGBrian said:


> It would depend on how many people were in said group, and what sort of activity the forum would get.
> 
> Im always willing to create a new forum that will be used regularly and provide hundreds of threads and or new topics...as its needed.
> 
> The Disney forum is a good example, they are nearly at the point where they will get bumped up to the main page with their own forum.



So maybe at some point in the future an HOA forum is appropriate with this as a sub-forum. Just food for thought.


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## TUGBrian (Aug 5, 2009)

Im not against it at all.


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## ace2000 (Aug 10, 2009)

I'm also in favor of a place (here or on T4MS) where owners can band together and consolidate their voices.   If a HOA or developer has overstepped their bounds and does something against the interests of the majority of the owners, there should be a place to facilitate the owners getting together. 

I believe in this concept enough that I would recommend a separate forum to allow for this type of discussion to take place.  It is very difficult to get a concerned group of owners together now (if not impossible), and this might provide an answer.  

Currrently, the HOA(s) or developer(s) have the upper hand simply because they know the disjointed and individual owners don't have a powerful enough voice and it's extremely difficult to get a group consensus.

I think it's an excellent idea.  Again, whether or not it is here is up to Brian.


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## Sou13 (Oct 10, 2009)

*"Newbie"?*

I stumbled upon this discussion as a result of searching TUG BBS for "Festiva" and see that it's been dormant since August!

This is an important topic, so let's find the best place for it.  I hope you'll find it yesterday!


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## DeniseM (Oct 10, 2009)

You should contact ecwinch -I believe he was spearheading this idea.


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