# Drowning at Harbor Lake



## mj2vacation (Jul 3, 2018)

sad outcome for a 5 year old at Harbor Lake

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...pool-marriott-harbor-lake-20180702-story.html


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## Adventureisoutthere (Jul 3, 2018)

mj2vacation said:


> sad outcome for a 5 year old at Harbor Lake
> 
> http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...pool-marriott-harbor-lake-20180702-story.html



Very sad and scary.  I’ll be there with my 2 boys on Sunday.  


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 3, 2018)

One issue I have with those pools is they are extremely small for the number of people using them and there is zero capacity enforcement. I have been there when there are so many people in the pool that you cannot relax without rubbing against people.

They have lifeguards but not in an official capacity. It is still swim at your own risk.


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## Concernedmom (Jul 3, 2018)

I was there and saw it happen. It was horrible. The hotels response was very poor. It took to long for any hotel staff to appear, the pool area was not cleared and kids/adults stood watching, grown-ups were crying, Kids didn’t know what to do. The AED took way to long to appear. When the ambulance arrived, it was guests and not staff running to wave them in. I will never forget it.


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## Pompey Family (Jul 4, 2018)

I can't read the article as it cannot be viewed in Europe so I don't know what the circumstances are however from my experience I have witnessed a number of occasions where parents have been neglectful in supervising their children. On one occasion at Mountainside my wife saved a young boy from drowning in the pool when he found himself way out of his depth. Where was his mum? She was on the other side of the pool, chatting away in the hot tub and completely unaware of where her son was and what was happening.


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## bazzap (Jul 4, 2018)

Pompey Family said:


> I can't read the article as it cannot be viewed in Europe so I don't know what the circumstances are however from my experience I have witnessed a number of occasions where parents have been neglectful in supervising their children. On one occasion at Mountainside my wife saved a young boy from drowning in the pool when he found himself way out of his depth. Where was his mum? She was on the other side of the pool, chatting away in the hot tub and completely unaware of where her son was and what was happening.


Very disturbing news, which you can read here in the UK using a VPN service.
It is frightening and actually annoying the lack of parental supervision we often witness of innocent and vulnerable young children who should be able to enjoy themselves safely.


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## Cornell (Jul 4, 2018)

For young children in the US, drowning is the biggest cause of accidental death.  This story is is just horrific to me.  I feel that American parents are so much more worried about "stranger danger" type things than drowning , which is much more likely to happen .


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## cissy (Jul 4, 2018)

Pompey Family said:


> I can't read the article as it cannot be viewed in Europe so I don't know what the circumstances are however from my experience I have witnessed a number of occasions where parents have been neglectful in supervising their children. On one occasion at Mountainside my wife saved a young boy from drowning in the pool when he found himself way out of his depth. Where was his mum? She was on the other side of the pool, chatting away in the hot tub and completely unaware of where her son was and what was happening.


My friend rescued a drowning toddler in the pool while his mother continued to look at her phone.  She never even said thanks.


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## Adventureisoutthere (Jul 4, 2018)

Concernedmom said:


> I was there and saw it happen. It was horrible. The hotels response was very poor. It took to long for any hotel staff to appear, the pool area was not cleared and kids/adults stood watching, grown-ups were crying, Kids didn’t know what to do. The AED took way to long to appear. When the ambulance arrived, it was guests and not staff running to wave them in. I will never forget it.



Heart breaking and it sounds very traumatic. I’m so sorry you witnessed this 


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 4, 2018)

Concernedmom said:


> I was there and saw it happen. It was horrible. The hotels response was very poor. It took to long for any hotel staff to appear, the pool area was not cleared and kids/adults stood watching, grown-ups were crying, Kids didn’t know what to do. The AED took way to long to appear. When the ambulance arrived, it was guests and not staff running to wave them in. I will never forget it.



Too long for hotel staff but where were the adults responsible for the child? It’s swim at your own risk. The place is not supposed to be staffed like a water park. Parents are solely responsible for their own children.


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## hangloose (Jul 4, 2018)

Very sad news, while not uncommon over the summer for young children.  As parents, we watch over our kids like a hawk when in the water, especially in a crowded pool or in the ocean.  In future, I'll make sure to pay attention to where the AED is locally, as I cannot say I've ever paid any attention to that historically.  I imagine MVC staff will likely be educated on proper response protocol, not only at Harbor Lake but across all MVC resorts (I hope).  Thought and prayers certainly for the family and those who witnessed it.


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## Concernedmom (Jul 4, 2018)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Too long for hotel staff but where were the adults responsible for the child? It’s swim at your own risk. The place is not supposed to be staffed like a water park. Parents are solely responsible for their own children.


Even if the parents were 100% neglectful, which we don’t know, they will live with this for the rest of their lives. I did not see events leading to her being pulled from the pool- it could have been anythjgn and kids can drown in seconds. And yes, It is swim at your own risk, i don’t blame them for not seeing the girl. It was the lack of action after the fact that will haunt me forever.  the hotel has a duty of care in an emergency situation. The staff should be trained to respond to situations such as this. The “emergency line” at the pool that connects to 911 didn’t even alert 911 where the call was originating from.  All staff should know where emergency life-saving equipment is located and they should know to bring it right away. For every minute an AED isn’t used the chance of survival decreases by 10%——so much precious time was lost without it. The staff should be awaiting ems, not hotel guests flagging down the ambulance. Another child nearly drowned there in 2013 and it was the same scenario with staff not knowing how to respond. I don’t know if this poor girl would have made it had staff acted, but I do know their inaction was noticeable to everyone around me. I will never forget the screams of agony from the mother. It’s easy to judge what we would have done, but hard to put ourselves in their shoes.


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## klpca (Jul 4, 2018)

Completely tragic. I feel so bad for her family.

A few years ago we had a pool party for the neighbors. I was sitting next to their two year old on the side of the pool. Her dad was across the pool. Mom was in the house. Someone called my name and I turned my head and answered them. Then I caught sight of her dad across the pool - his eyes were huge and scared. I knew immediately that something was wrong with the two year old. I looked down and there she was - under the water. Close enough that I was able to grab her arm and pull her out. She didn't even swallow any water. What sticks with me to this day is that it was instantaneous and SILENT. I was less than a foot away and I didn't hear a thing. I thought that I was being attentive but it only took a moment of distraction to allow her to slip into the water. It was frankly terrifying. I now keep life vests on hand and make all of the kids wear them. I figure that it buys the adults a few extra seconds in case the kids slip in. I did not realize how quickly it could happen and I definitely expected to hear a splash. Nope. Quick and silent.


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## Adventureisoutthere (Jul 4, 2018)

klpca said:


> What sticks with me to this day is that it was instantaneous and SILENT.  I now keep life vests on hand and make all of the kids wear them. I figure that it buys the adults a few extra seconds in case the kids slip in. I did not realize quick it could happen and I definitely expected to hear a splash. Nope. Quick and silent.



This....

Floatation devices until able to swim.  It’s not over protective, it’s life saving.  I’m guilty of being overly distracted near water and very thankful for life vests.  


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## pedro47 (Jul 5, 2018)

This a very sad and tragic story for everyone. I feel that a basic mandatory swimming class sure be apart of every child study in schools IMHO.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 5, 2018)

While in college, two summers I worked as a lifeguard (Red Cross certificate) ... first summer at a small pool along and 2nd summer, at a lake with a 2nd or 3rd guard working at the same time.

The pool .. summer of 1971 was a very small community pool. I was ALONE ... except for a 2nd guard who worked on my day off. One mother with a 2yo woud bring him down to the pool and 'play' blowing in his face and then dunking him in her arms. Told me that was a Red Cross approved 'drown proofing' programming ... I just thought, "Dumb as all get out!" .. but I was 19yo college kid.

The next summer I worked a larger guard job (man made lake with beach sand bottom) with several other guards. And I again took the Lifeguard Training course to renew my certificate. Another guard (years older than me) was a Red Cross Certificated Trainer (Cornell University fitness center employee) attend a summer graduate school program nearby.

But the local newspaper carried the story about the 3yo boy who DROWN after falling into the pool where I had worked the summer before. It was a tragic story. The guard was backwashing the pool filter and the mom said the boy fell into the small pool unnoticed. The pool was closed forever. I feel so very sorry for the young lifeguard .. with guarding alone with no way to secure the pool deck while performing noisy tasks out of sight of the pool's water. And parents NOT watching like a hawk their children AND not keeping their kids OUT of the water when the guard is not on the pool deck.


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## pedro47 (Jul 5, 2018)

vacationhopeful said:


> While in college, two summers I worked as a lifeguard (Red Cross certificate) ... first summer at a small pool along and 2nd summer, at a lake with a 2nd or 3rd guard working at the same time.
> 
> The pool .. summer of 1971 was a very small community pool. I was ALONE ... except for a 2nd guard who worked on my day off. One mother with a 2yo woud bring him down to the pool and 'play' blowing in his face and then dunking him in her arms. Told me that was a Red Cross approved 'drown proofing' programming ... I just thought, "Dumb as all get out!" .. but I was 19yo college kid.
> 
> ...



A nice story but a very tragic ending.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 5, 2018)

I tell that story every time there are people who think pools are GREAT and a lifeguard will NEVER have or allow a drowning on their watch. It has been 47 summers since the boy drowned ... the family's last name was the same as mine (unrelated).


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 5, 2018)

Adventureisoutthere said:


> This....
> 
> Flotation devices until able to swim.  It’s not over protective, it’s life saving.  I’m guilty of being overly distracted near water and very thankful for life vests.
> 
> ...



I hear you and I agree it is probably the best approach for most, but it isn't for me. For me learning to swim is the first and foremost priority. Flotation devices provide a false sense of security and a child can take them off or forget they do not have them on. All my kids learned to swim at 2 and until then they do not leave our side. Even after learning to swim our eyes are constantly watching until they are much older. I am not saying it is the best method because it is definitely not realistic for everyone.

We have a pool which is one of the reasons I am so "learn to swim".


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## Adventureisoutthere (Jul 5, 2018)

Saintsfanfl said:


> I hear you and I agree it is probably the best approach for most, but it isn't for me. For me learning to swim is the first and foremost priority. Flotation devices provide a false sense of security and a child can take them off or forget they do not have them on. All my kids learned to swim at 2 and until then they do not leave our side. Even after learning to swim our eyes are constantly watching until they are much older. I am not saying it is the best method because it is definitely not realistic for everyone.
> 
> We have a pool which is one of the reasons I am so "learn to swim".



I would have to agree that learning to swim should be #1, but high quality swim lessons with adequate frequency are hard time find and quite frankly are not affordable.  A swim lesson once per week is not frequent enough and at $250 a quarter for weekly lessons at the best swim school, it’s not necessarily cheap.  This type of schedule requires years of “lessons” to actually learn how to swim.  Good business model, but pour for mastering a skill.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 5, 2018)

Adventureisoutthere said:


> I would have to agree that learning to swim should be #1, but high quality swim lessons with adequate frequency are hard time find and quite frankly are not affordable.  A swim lesson once per week is not frequent enough and at $250 a quarter for weekly lessons at the best swim school, it’s not necessarily cheap.  This type of schedule requires years of “lessons” to actually learn how to swim.  Good business model, but pour for mastering a skill.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I agree, especially for those that do not live in warm climates.


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## NboroGirl (Jul 5, 2018)

Saintsfanfl said:


> I hear you and I agree it is probably the best approach for most, but it isn't for me. For me learning to swim is the first and foremost priority. Flotation devices provide a false sense of security and a child can take them off or forget they do not have them on. All my kids learned to swim at 2 and until then they do not leave our side. Even after learning to swim our eyes are constantly watching until they are much older. I am not saying it is the best method because it is definitely not realistic for everyone.
> 
> We have a pool which is one of the reasons I am so "learn to swim".



My parents made us take swim lessons every summer, like 4 days a week for a few weeks.  I don't remember the age I started them or for how many years I took them, but I didn't like them because they were early morning lessons and the pool and water were always freezing. 

I also remember swimming at my cousin's pool when I was around 7 while the men were playing cards on the pool deck. I wore a life jacket because I didn't yet know how to swim.  At one point my aunt had all the kids get out of the pool for a short rest (maybe it was adult swim time?), so I took my life vest off.  Then when they told us we could go back in, I ran and jumped off the diving board, realizing too late I didn't have my life vest on.  So yes, I agree flotation devices are not always the best thing.  I managed to doggie paddle to the shallow end and got I out of the pool.  I was scared and wouldn't swim any more that day.  My father never knew. (When I got home I told Mom about it and she scolded my father for not watching us.)


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## klpca (Jul 5, 2018)

We didn't put in a pool until our youngest was six and swimming confidently. I cannot control how other people supervise their kids or if their assessment of the kid's swimming ability is accurate. So when you come to our house and swim in our pool you are wearing a vest unless *I* can see that you are a confident swimmer which involves not just swimming, but getting yourself to the steps. Even then I am a bit nervous. I probably wouldn't be this nervous if the other incident hadn't happened. I'm not a nervous nellie and I think that there's a good amount of truth in the saying "sink or swim", but I use an abundance of caution with the pool. If the kids are in the pool, I am watching them unless their parents are right there. In the blink of an eye things can go bad with a pool.


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## Sandy VDH (Jul 5, 2018)

Drowning doesn't look like drowning.


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## Gemini Chica (Jul 5, 2018)

Totally tragic. We were there last October and I have a 5 year old duaghter, doesn't bare thinking about.


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## mdurette (Jul 5, 2018)

hangloose said:


> I'll make sure to pay attention to where the AED is locally, as I cannot say I've ever paid any attention to that historically.



Great idea hangloose about making a mental note of AEDs in the area you are.    My DH and I were talking about this last night, AEDs are everywhere now.    I noticed one in the lobby of our local bank the other day.   You never know where you may find one in the event if you ever need one.    

We are lucky in the fact we typically have one in our driveway in DH business car.   I have let me neighbors know, just in case someone needs to call 911 and then send someone over if they notice the car in the driveway.


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## BigRedNole (Jul 6, 2018)

Drowning is a silent death. People need to watch that video someone showed. In the end, this is a parental issue. If you are not going to watch your child 100% of the time in the water, they are not to be in the water. It is as simple as that. We had something similar in our neighborhood pool. It is not that big and there were only about 5 people in it. A Hispanic family let there kid go into the pool and none of them, even the kid knew how to swim. A friend pulled him out, another was doing CPR, and they revived him before EMS arrived. It is a crazy to think it is someone else's responsibility to watch your kids.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 7, 2018)

Hopefully whoever is grabbing an AED knows how to use it. The description of this story makes it sound like nobody knew what they were doing and nobody was doing CPR. I don't know if that is true but based on the first hand poster it sounds like it. You can't use an AED on someone pulled from a pool wet, and you never want to use it on someone with a pulse, which many times happens with a drowning victim with lungs full of water.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 7, 2018)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Hopefully whoever is grabbing an AED knows how to use it. The description of this story makes it sound like nobody knew what they were doing and nobody was doing CPR. I don't know if that is true but based on the first hand poster it sounds like it. You can't use an AED on someone pulled from a pool wet, and you never want to use it on someone with a pulse, which many times happens with a drowning victim with lungs full of water.


I don't think those EADs you see in most place will work on someone with a pulse. They are designed to be somewhat foolproof and can detect a pulse and won't work if there is one.


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## myoakley (Jul 7, 2018)

40 years ago, when my 4 children were little and we were looking to buy a house, whenever the realtor said, "And it has a lovely pool", my husband would look at me and know that was a deal-breaker.  Eventually he told her not to show us houses with pools because I would not consider them.  She was incredulous!  At one time, he considered having a house built on a lovely lot adjacent to a large pond.  The developer casually mentioned that a boy had drowned in that pond.  Needless to say, that option was eliminated, also.  I knew I didn't want to spend every waking hour worrying about whether any one of my children had gotten into the water.


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## Concernedmom (Jul 8, 2018)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Hopefully whoever is grabbing an AED knows how to use it. The description of this story makes it sound like nobody knew what they were doing and nobody was doing CPR. I don't know if that is true but based on the first hand poster it sounds like it. You can't use an AED on someone pulled from a pool wet, and you never want to use it on someone with a pulse, which many times happens with a drowning victim with lungs full of water.



There was a hotel guest doing CPR on the child. It was my understanding that he was a paramedic...although I can not verify if that was true or just word of mouth. An aed can be used if the victim is wiped dry. An aed will not activate if it is not necessary to shock- the machine is set up so that anyone can use it. Again idk if it would have changed the outcome, but the lack of organized action from the hotel was scary.


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## Sandy VDH (Jul 8, 2018)

BigRedNole said:


> Drowning is a silent death. People need to watch that video someone showed.




I posted that video.  It is worth watching, as it is NOT what you expect a drowning to look like.  Not what you see on TV.


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## Adventureisoutthere (Jul 9, 2018)

Being at this resort this week with a 4.5 yo and 2.5 yo, this story truly breaks my heart and I say a quick prayer each time we step foot in the pools.  I will admit, this story was a swift kick in the pants to wake up though and realize that when vacationing with littles, it’s not really a vacation.  I need to be more diligent here than at home and that’s ok.  We are here for the memories.

I pray for the family and all involved.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 9, 2018)

Adventureisoutthere said:


> ...and realize that when vacationing with littles, it’s not really a vacation.



Without a doubt. We vacation alot and every time I come back to work to rest.


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## UthTrvlr (Jul 9, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think those EADs you see in most place will work on someone with a pulse. They are designed to be somewhat foolproof and can detect a pulse and won't work if there is one.



Correct, AED's only shock V Fib, and Pulseless V-Tach. Also the child would need to be removed from any puddles, and dried off before a shock. (Current Fire/EMT)

In April when I was at the Grand Chateau, the entire front office leadership was gone for CPR, AED training. I think it should be mandatory training for all staff, at all the resorts, pool or not... very sad to hear that the child didn't make it. Hopefully they can use this tragic event as a training topic to improve response and outcomes in the future.


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## Saintsfanfl (Jul 9, 2018)

UthTrvlr said:


> Correct, AED's only shock V Fib, and Pulseless V-Tach. Also the child would need to be removed from any puddles, and dried off before a shock. (Current Fire/EMT)
> 
> In April when I was at the Grand Chateau, the entire front office leadership was gone for CPR, AED training. I think it should be mandatory training for all staff, at all the resorts, pool or not... very sad to hear that the child didn't make it. Hopefully they can use this tragic event as a training topic to improve response and outcomes in the future.



I remembered a post about a Harbor Lake drowning not long ago that had similar complaints. It was 5 years ago but seemed more recent. It doesn't sound like anything changed from that fortunate outcome. https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/near-drowning-at-marriott-harbour-lakes.192373/

For what it's worth Harbor Lake staffs full time lifeguards. Maintenance fees pay for those lifeguards. They are not "official capacity" lifeguards from a liability stand point, and they are not required to keep a constant eye like normal lifeguards at a public pool, but there are there nonetheless. I find it odd in both stories that you don't hear about what the lifeguards were doing. I would never depend on them for anything but I wonder what they were doing. I know they are really just rules enforcement but since they are there and certified you would think they would take over within a minute.


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## LMD (Nov 27, 2018)

I am the one that posted about the near drowning that I witnessed in 2013. I am hor


Saintsfanfl said:


> I remembered a post about a Harbor Lake drowning not long ago that had similar complaints. It was 5 years ago but seemed more recent. It doesn't sound like anything changed from that fortunate outcome. https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/near-drowning-at-marriott-harbour-lakes.192373/
> 
> For what it's worth Harbor Lake staffs full time lifeguards. Maintenance fees pay for those lifeguards. They are not "official capacity" lifeguards from a liability stand point, and they are not required to keep a constant eye like normal lifeguards at a public pool, but there are there nonetheless. I find it odd in both stories that you don't hear about what the lifeguards were doing. I would never depend on them for anything but I wonder what they were doing. I know they are really just rules enforcement but since they are there and certified you would think they would take over within a minute.



That is my post from 2013. I will never be able to erase that day out of my mind. As a result I immediately went home and enrolled my then 18 month old in what I thought was very costly ISR swim lessons. Best money ever spent! I would do it again in a heart beat.  I am horrified to know that the Marriott did not take any steps and have an action plan in place . The pirate pool is a tough place to keep your eyes on your kids, especially if you have more than one.


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