# Summer Bay Resort in Vegas:  ATTENTION Owners



## krlorenz

I was reading with much interest the thread on Summer Bay Resort Owners unite.  All of a sudden the dicussion ended.  I am wondering if the gentleman paul@premierbr.net has any more info for SBR owners.


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## spatenfloot

It ended because too many people realize that he has a vested interest in killing the deal. It is in the best interest for most owners for the proposed transfer to go through as it is.


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## hajjah

As a new owner, I agree.  We need to keep this moving forward.


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## krlorenz

So it doesnt bother you guys that the development company is going to make all the money and the owners get nothing but another timeshare.


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## krlorenz

I have owned this property for 18 years.  When we bought this timeshare part of their marketing was "you will own land on the strip".  When Summer Bay took over we were somewhat relieved. We went to Vegas, met with a salesman and purchased another week.  My only concern was that a bankruptcy would force the sale of the resort.  The salesman reassured me that would never happen.  And here we are today, about to lose our "land on the strip".  

We are not going to send our packet back.  Even if we lose our timeshare.  I hope to get back to the resort someday soon and tell them what I think of them.


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## Sandy

*Please reconsider*

krlorenz,

It is unfortunate that you believe you have been misled.  I am only a new owner, for a few months. From what I have heard, there have been many misrepresentations and lies. And you feel as many owners do, that this is another scam or some form of deceit.

However, you should seriously stay tuned to this procedure, and be cautious about just giving up your ownership.  Seems that the new resort will have more value, and at the least you can sell it in the future if you don't want to own anymore.  But if you give it up on principle, you have nothing when the final move takes place.  I guess the resort will take back whatever units are not transferred to the Desert Club. 

There is probably no need to transfer just yet, but there will in all likelihood come a point in time when everyone who wants to move will have to make a decision.  Walking away from something you (probably) paid thousands of dollars for should not be taken lightly. Don't get me wrong, I understand some of your anger.  But at minimum, you can sell your ownership, or give the ownership to a family member or friend, rather than let it lapse. 

Just something to think about.


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## krlorenz

Sandy you talk as if the transfer is going to happen no matter what the owners want.  It is my opinion that most of the companies involved in this transter of ownership are owners at SBR that have hopped on the wagon to make some money for themselves.  That makes me sick.  I believe this transfer has been planned for years and yes they did lie to us and maybe they will lie to us again and again and again.  Maybe then you will understand how some long time owners feel now.


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## Sandy

Sandy said:


> krlorenz,
> 
> It is unfortunate that you believe you have been misled.  I am only a new owner, for a few months. From what I have heard, there have been many misrepresentations and lies. And you feel as many owners do, that this is another scam or some form of deceit.
> 
> ...
> There is probably no need to transfer just yet, but there will in all likelihood come a point in time when everyone who wants to move will have to make a decision.  Walking away from something you (probably) paid thousands of dollars for should not be taken lightly. Don't get me wrong, I understand some of your anger.  But at minimum, you can sell your ownership, or give the ownership to a family member or friend, rather than let it lapse.




Klorenz

Sorry if you misunderstood my message. True, I am not a long time owner, but I thought I mentioned that I do believe that you have been lied to, and I expressed that your anger is justified.

The transfer will only happen if the percentage of owners (how many??) agree. Until that time, the things will continue as they are.  

All I was suggesting in my post is that you think carefully before dumping the resort, if it turns out that the move actually takes place. I meant no offense.


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## timeos2

*The gift horse may be moving on*



krlorenz said:


> I have owned this property for 18 years.  When we bought this timeshare part of their marketing was "you will own land on the strip".  When Summer Bay took over we were somewhat relieved. We went to Vegas, met with a salesman and purchased another week.  My only concern was that a bankruptcy would force the sale of the resort.  The salesman reassured me that would never happen.  And here we are today, about to lose our "land on the strip".
> 
> We are not going to send our packet back.  Even if we lose our timeshare.  I hope to get back to the resort someday soon and tell them what I think of them.



What you bought was a sales pitch and a piece of one unit in a larger development that you own 1 seven day minuscule slice of. Even calling that property land "on the strip" is a stretch but, if someone such as Harrahs builds far enough back, it can be. Meanwhile the existing resort is a disaster that, until the upgrade was announced, almost couldn't be given away and is readily available at will on rent or trade. 

Along comes a developer, who plans to make money no doubt, to move your tiny slice to a week in another resort, very close to the original, that will be a major upgrade both in quality and value at no cost to you.  But some feel thats not enough. They want more - cash in hand. Well, if you want that, try selling your existing rights. Find out what your 1/52 of one small slice of a building on land near the strip is actually worth. You have nothing else to sell and you own nothing else. Asking for profits/development rights you don't control - the Association of all owners does - may not be the smartest move. Unless you do plan to simply give up on your ownership in which case you'll get what you expect. Nothing.  

Every time this type of thing comes up - someone talking about how much a resort/property is worth if sold off for development - I can only laugh. Here is an opportunity no one could expect being offered to the owners of a, ahem, rather downtrodden resort and it might be quashed. And what will you own then? Once again try to sell the slice you feel is so valuable. Good luck. 

Unbelievable.


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## krlorenz

We have owned at this timeshare for 18 years and we have been lied to over and over.  There is no excuse for that.  I believe the board and the powers that be will do anything to make their dream a reality.  I would strongly suggest anyone looking at buying property at the Summer Bay Resort in Las Vegas, DO NOT BUY.  There are many unscrupulous people in charge at this resort and they will do and say anything to get what they want and what they want is MONEY.  We have watched our timeshare fall into dispair while our maintainance fees grew from year to year.  Now we are expected to settle for another old building, further from the strip that will be in the same shape in ten years and another group of people will take the money and run only to file for bankruptcy so we can go through the same thing again.  I am sure the resort is watching these forums for any discussion on this topic.   Just to let them know, I did recieve a phone call from Vacation Property Resale inquiring about selling our timeshare.  When I asked them about how they got my name they told me Summer Bay Resort gave my name to them.  Now why do you suppose SBR would do that?  Maybe it is "some form of deceit".  Do ya think?


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## krlorenz

I am so glad I can bring some humor into your day timeos2.  So you are saying when a salesman tells you something it doesnt have to be the trueth, you can just label it a sales pitch and you can tell me I fell for it.  Just to inform you, the land that we have a deed for, is indeed on the strip.  It hasn't been zoned multi use.  As an owner I dont want the deal to go sour I just want what any land owner would want and that is a piece of what the land is worth, not what the delapitated resort is worth.  And who is to blame for the state the resort is in.  Who is responsible for keeping this resort in good shape.  We thought it would be the great Summer Bay.

You know it seemed like only yestereday we were in Las Vegas buying our first timeshare.  We listened when they told us all the plans that were in the works for renovations.  It seems like that is all this resort ever did was renovate.  And now it looks like we will renovate again if this goes through.  We are going to renovate another old building that might last for awhile and then what, maybe move again, yeh and then we will renovate again.  Yes it is unbelievable.


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## krlorenz

I appreciate your last post Sandy.  This has been so frustrating for a very long time and now just because a develper wants to "help" take the property off our hands we are supposed to be overwhelmed with joy.  No apology necessary.  I am just tired of this mess.  But I will not sign away my land and would encourage every SBR owner not to sign until we know all the facts.  I am in the process of finding out all I can and hope to keep owners that haven't been scared into signing their deeds over informed as to what is happening.  Maybe it will help maybe not, but at least I can say I tried to do what I think is right.


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## stevedmatt

Excuse my ignorance as I was considering buying a week just because of the transfer to the Desert Club.

Do people feel this is a bad deal because their current Summer Bay unit is worth more than the upgraded Desert Club unit? If this is your feeling, is it based on the fact that the Summer Bay property is closer to the strip?

Thanks for your insight. Tug is always full of great insight and I would like to know your feelings.


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## dougp26364

krlorenz said:


> I am so glad I can bring some humor into your day timeos2.  So you are saying when a salesman tells you something it doesnt have to be the trueth, you can just label it a sales pitch and you can tell me I fell for it.  Just to inform you, the land that we have a deed for, is indeed on the strip.  It hasn't been zoned multi use.  As an owner I dont want the deal to go sour I just want what any land owner would want and that is a piece of what the land is worth, not what the delapitated resort is worth.  And who is to blame for the state the resort is in.  Who is responsible for keeping this resort in good shape.  We thought it would be the great Summer Bay.
> 
> You know it seemed like only yestereday we were in Las Vegas buying our first timeshare.  We listened when they told us all the plans that were in the works for renovations.  It seems like that is all this resort ever did was renovate.  And now it looks like we will renovate again if this goes through.  We are going to renovate another old building that might last for awhile and then what, maybe move again, yeh and then we will renovate again.  Yes it is unbelievable.




Are you saying that you believed the salesman or that the salesman didn't lie? Do you believe that after 18 years you could prove what was "said" by a salesman that's most likely no longer there? Do you honestly believe that timeshare salesman don't pitch heat? If so, I have some beach front property here in KS I'd be interested in selling you.

You will NEVER enforce what a salesman told you that is not in writing. You were lied to but now your wanting to cut your nose off to spite your face. Not only your face but the face of every other owner as what is one of the lower resorts in Vegas right now for ownership/exchanging. You actually have the opportunity to take a down troden non-five star resort that is NOT on the strip and trade up into a NEW FIVE STAR resort for NOTHING. Not only that but the ensuing development around said new resort will not only be new but INCREASE the value of the land all around it. 

But nope, you're happy with the way it is. A resort in need of drastic and expensive upgrades (to be paid out of pocket by someone.....iewners....ie YOU) plus you want to try to drag any other owners down with you. 

Sorry you've been lied to by a TS salesman and past developers but hey, welcome to timeshare 101. You own what you own. The deed to a 1/52 share of a condo in a timeshare developement. Past that you own nothing and right now that 1/52 slice is worth maybe $500 at best on resale.

Of course, if the move is made you'll gain a new resort and 5 star status with I.I. plus own a piece of property very close to new developement on the strip and possibly an improved location over what you presently have. If you do nothing then you will end up with exactly that.......nothing. Sounds like a good plan to me.


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## krlorenz

Stevedmatt,

I don't know how other owners feel, just how I feel.  Throughout this whole ordeal I have been unable to get information on what was going on from the board or the corporate office.  Other people have tried to get information only to be put off in the same way.  The information I wanted would help me make a decision on whether or not I sign my land away.  I have owned for 18 years and haven't experienced a whole lot of trueth in that time.  Here is the deal.  When we bought the timeshare we were told we would own land "on the strip".  We thought the land would eventually be sold for redevelopmnent.  We didn't realize it would be brought about by the resort filing for bankruptcy.  Now the owners are being asked to give up their land on the strip for land near the strip.  From articles I have read lately land on the strip is going for alot of money.  Who is going to make the money from the change of ownership?  The development company, not the owners that have bought and paid for it and have paid huge maintaince fees for many years.  Doesn't seem right does it?  I encourage you to go to a sales meeting.  See what they say about this transfering of land.  They will give you a song and dance story about how good a deal it is for the owners and that they should be grateful they have a new timeshare location.  When in fact the "new" location is an old bunch of buildings that they will renovate again and again and again, your maintaince fees will go up and in the end someone will make alot of money and who know maybe the resort will go bankrupt again.  Sorry I can't be more positive, but this has been the history of this resort.


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## krlorenz

dougp26364,

Please dont talk down to me.  I may be naive but I am not stupid.  You may be a seasoned timeshare owner but, unfortunately SBR is the only timeshare resort we own.  We realize that there is money to made on these deals, but why not be honest while you are doing it.  Information has been withheld from owners by the board.  The board that is supposed to respresent the owners.  Unfortunately there is no way for the owners to band together except for traveling to Vegas for one of those wonderful meetings they talk about.  Your sacrasm does not deter me in the least.


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## timeos2

krlorenz said:


> dougp26364,
> 
> Please dont talk down to me.  I may be naive but I am not stupid.  You may be a seasoned timeshare owner but, unfortunately SBR is the only timeshare resort we own.  We realize that there is money to made on these deals, but why not be honest while you are doing it.  Information has been withheld from owners by the board.  The board that is supposed to respresent the owners.  Unfortunately there is no way for the owners to band together except for traveling to Vegas for one of those wonderful meetings they talk about.  Your sacrasm does not deter me in the least.



You and your fellow owners elect the Board. They are your voice. As far as I know, but you can correct me if I'm wrong, SB is under owner Board control - the developer does not control the BOD.  If so you have the method to change things if you don't like the direction. Vote the Board out and elect one you feel better represents you. It can be done, it has been done and the power of a properly informed and unified owner base can defeat the most powerful interests.  

You certainly have a right to all details and players. If you make official requests - in writing - for that information from the Management/Board they would be fools to deny you as then you do have a case against them.  Of course you'd have to sue and cover the legal costs but it is your right.  

As for your overall experience Doug does have it right. The only thing you bought, like it or not, fair or not, is what your documents state. Especially almost 20 years ago the "standards" for timeshare sales weren't even what they are today. And today buyers STILL get sold a picture of one thing and a deed/club/tust that may be another.  

It sounds like you would be best served by ending your relationship with SB as an owner.  It's not worth the hassles or heartache it seems to be causing you. Or band your fellow owners together to come up with another Board/plan. Simply scuttling the current plan with no back up options is not a great move IMO.


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## krlorenz

I find all the advice on the SBR problem very interesting.  I thank all of you for your input.    I would be interested in input from other SBR owners on this subject and preferably owners that have the history on how we got where we are today.  Thanks again for all the advice.


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## Sandy

By the way, 

We were all waiting for Paul's promise of "new" information. He came on this board about a month ago and he promised some additional information that would cast further doubt on the deal. 

But he seems to have disappeared, at least in the past month or so. I recall asking him, in another post, to please post the specifics on the info.  We never heard back from him. 

His posts are here on another thread on this board.


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## krlorenz

Sandy are you an owner a Summer Bay Resort in Vegas or do you work for the resort in any way?


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## janapur

Like Sandy, I purchased SB resale weeks in speculation of the new resort at its new location. I had the pleasure of meeting Sandy, Bob, and several other "new" SB owners. Imagine my surprise to learn at the annual meeting that some owners were not thrilled with this unprecidented transition.

My situation is different than the disgruntled long-time owners. I mean no disrespect to any SB owners. More importantly, I have far less invested in the weeks I purchased on ebay than what many of these owners paid for one week.

However, I am also aware of SB's condition at the current location. If this deal does not go through, a special assessment is imminent (not to mention increased MFs) UNLESS a better deal could be made giving us a bigger/better slice of the pie. My greed tempts me to hope that this is in fact a possibility, but my common sense tells me to take the deal and RUN to the new Desert Club. 

I, too, am still waiting to hear or read concrete evidence supporting the possibility of a better deal.

I have never known anyone who purchased ts hoping to make a significant profit. It is an investment in vacation, and from what I've seen of the new location vs. the current, added to the proposed plan for Harrahs, this vacation destination will trade stronger, resell higher and be enjoyed more no matter what each owner originally paid.

Jana


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## roadtriper

krlorenz said:


> I find all the advice on the SBR problem very interesting.  I thank all of you for your input.    I would be interested in input from other SBR owners on this subject and preferably owners that have the history on how we got where we are today.  Thanks again for all the advice.



Well I guess I need to put my .02 in here...
"How we got where we are today"   well the previous developer/Mgmt. Co.   "Liesure Industries"    Lied through their teeth to nice folks like you, had grand plans to redevelop the resort to luxury towers.  then robbed, pillaged, and plundered all the treasure. putting the whole place into Bankruptcy.   the HOA Board remained solvent and determined.  years of litigation, auctions etc.  enter Summer Bay Mgmt. who purchased  the assetts at auction.  and commited millions of dollars to renovate the current mess of a resort. and a company who purchased the redevelopment rights as defined by the Bankruptcy court.   and they sold those rights to a company owned by harrah's.   OUR Hoa Board have spent the past 2-3 years in Negotiations with the folks at Harrah's working out the current deal. which in my opinion as an owner of 5 weeks at SBLV  is a damn fair deal.  I truly have empathy for you and the other folks who believed you were buying "LAND' in Las Vegas.  I hold 5 deeds that describe a parcel of land as yours do, But...   I don't think for a min. that I own land in las vegas.  not even a sliver!   I do get the use of 5 weeks at the resort for myself, friends and family. or I can exchange, rent or sell my interest. as can you!    as stated previously. our units currently are worth between $500-$5000 on the resale market.  most holding towards the lower end.   that's just the true hard facts no matter what others have told you.  the move to the Desert Club Complex will raise that value some. it will make exchanges easier, the rental value will go up, as will the resale value. but none of us are going to get rich.  yup the developer will make a lot of money.  as did the folks you handed your money to.   see there are folks 18 years younger than you that will believe the same lies you did, and make the same mistakes you did.  it's what fuels the timeshare industry.  I mean no disrespect, you are in good company.  Many many folks have paid way too much for something they didn't understand, or were lied to about.  many of them are the folks here on TUG, and will tell you outright they got screwed on their first timeshare. but they learned to work the system and get enjoyment out of their years of happy vacations with family. 

I'm curious, in the 18 years of ownership how many times have you stayed at the resort?   how many owners meetings have you attended?  

Just to clear up some mis-information...   Summer Bay Las Vegas is a 40+ year old conglomeration of small apartment complexes. spread over a 18 acre area.   it's a "Resort" in name only.  don't get me wrong, I love the place. But it's a tired old complex. 
Summer Bay is not ,and never was "ON THE STRIP"   
We are where we are, we can't undo the past. and as much as you need to have someone to blame,  IMHO The HOA Board and Summer Bay aren't the bad guys.    again just my .02     RT


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## dougp26364

krlorenz said:


> dougp26364,
> 
> Please dont talk down to me.  I may be naive but I am not stupid.  You may be a seasoned timeshare owner but, unfortunately SBR is the only timeshare resort we own.  We realize that there is money to made on these deals, but why not be honest while you are doing it.  Information has been withheld from owners by the board.  The board that is supposed to respresent the owners.  Unfortunately there is no way for the owners to band together except for traveling to Vegas for one of those wonderful meetings they talk about.  Your sacrasm does not deter me in the least.




Not talking down and I'm writing without sarcasim. All I'm doing is telling you the truth as it is. You've either been lied to or have not gathered all the information over the years that you should have. This resort has had it's share of problems and management/developer changes. I recall being invited to attend a presentation back when it was still branded Ramada and there have been a couple of changes since then. 

The resort has had it's share of problems in the past and no doubt there has been some lies and information that has not been disburssed to owners. I share similar problems with our ownership at Polo Towers in that the management company there doesn't communicate with owners very well. 

Still, I have no desire to make a bad situation worse by putting myself into a position to lose everything. Something you seem more than willing to do.

When it comes right down to it, you apparently have three decisions to make and all have their outcomes.

1. go with the new proposed property. Results will be that it's going to move a little further east from it's present location, it is suppose to become a 5 star resort, 5 star should mean better trading power, and all units are supposed to be fully refurbished as no cost to the owner.

2. force the BOD to remain where it is. The resort will not be brought up to 5 star standards, you risk action by the city of Vegas itself to force an issue (if you don't think there is corruption in Vegas and that major casino's can force their way then you are naive), you risk a major special assessment to bring the resort up to decent standards (Polo Towers owners just got whacked with an SA over $1,000 for each 2 bedroom unit) and you risk a major increase in MF's should they decide to update the resort with/without a special assessment.

3. They move forward and you give up your unit for nothing. This seems like a senselss total loss to me rather than making the most of what you consider to be a bad situation. 

I do not blame owners at this resort for being upset over how the resort has been managed all these years. Summer Bay has the seat now and from what I've seen of them, they seem to be about as decent and responsible of a management company as there is out there. There was an election of the BOD a few years ago with changes made to that BOD that appeared to be positive for the owners. Don't let previous BOD's and previous poor management by management companies cloud your decision over what Summer Bay and the current BOD are recommending. To my eye that appears to be exactly what you are doing and, if that's how it is, then I don't believe that any management company or BOD is going to be able to make you happy. 

If that's the case then perhaps it's time to sell your ownership, cut your losses and find a timeshare with a management company and BOD that can make timesharing enjoyable again.


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## krlorenz

Just to clear up some mis-information, the Fountains are on a piece of land zoned as "the strip".


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## krlorenz

None of you newbies get it, we have been told renovations would be made before.  It never happened.  Why should this promise be any different than any of the rest. Remember these guys can say anything they want, and we can't do anything about it if they don't carry through with it.  I may sell my ts, I may not, but it won't be because of any promises made by the corrupt bunch in Vegas.


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## roadtriper

krlorenz said:


> Just to clear up some mis-information, the Fountains are on a piece of land zoned as "the strip".



Consider this "Newbie"  corrected.    I wish you the best of luck with your piece of Real Estate on "The Strip"  I'm sure with the rate of growth in las Vegas that it wont be too long before some big shot developer will be calling you!    RT


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## dougp26364

krlorenz said:


> None of you newbies get it, we have been told renovations would be made before.  It never happened.  Why should this promise be any different than any of the rest. Remember these guys can say anything they want, and we can't do anything about it if they don't carry through with it.  I may sell my ts, I may not, but it won't be because of any promises made by the corrupt bunch in Vegas.




This is very true about this resort but, Summer Bay has a better track record for managing and maintaining their resorts than the previous management companies owners at this resort have dealt with. I think they deserve to be cut a little slack before you toss the baby out with the bath water. Plus it's HET that's the money man in this project if I'm not mistaken. While I'm not a big HET fan if they put it in writing I believe they're going to honor it. Likewise I don't believe HET is going to allow a few owners to hold them over a barrel either.


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## dougp26364

krlorenz said:


> Just to clear up some mis-information, the Fountains are on a piece of land zoned as "the strip".



While it might be zoned as "the strip" is certainly is fronted on "the strip." It's not more "on the strip" than either the new Marriott or the new Westgate. If it doesn't have an address on LV Blv. S. then it's not "on" the strip. For that matter this location is clearly at least 1/2 block off the strip. 

Before someone starts in about HGVC Flamingo's location being "on" the strip, that resort isn't anymore on the strip than Summer Bay. The only real difference might be it's very close proximity and easy access onto the Flamingo property whereby owners can walk to the strip without getting outside the Flamingo resort grounds. 

Zoned as on the strip and being on the strip are two different things. Sort of like a resort that's zoned as beach front but you have to walk across a street to get to the beach vs a resort that is right on the beach. Right on the beach is a prefered location to having to walk across the a paved street to reach the beach. 

I still think the best outcome for Summer Bay owners would be with the new and improved resort over the old and worn resort that exists now. Will it actually come to be or end up just another empty promise we'll have to wait to find out. I believe I'd give them a chance first rather than shut them down because of what Ramada and Leasure Resorts have done in the past. Past actions by management companies no longer in power should not influence decisions about a new management company which has demonstrate a better track record with it's owners.


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## krlorenz

Once again thanks for all the input guys.  I don't really feel like fighting about land on the strip, etc.  I started this thread to get in touch with other owners that feel the same way I do.  I know they are out there because there were alot of dissatisfied people at one of the meetings in Vegas.  From the tone of this conversation, I understand why an owner would shy away from expressing any opinion other than give away their land and move while discussing the matter on this website.  You guys have definite opinions, but you don't have to try to degrade people and cut people down in the process.  Once again I am not going to fight.  Go somewhere else if you want to fight.  Time will tell whether the move goes through or not.  I have been able make contact with a few members that feel the same why I do and I know there are more out there.  Perhaps we just have to vent awhile.  So why don't you namer callers go somewhere else and play.


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## Sandy

krlorenz said:


> Sandy are you an owner a Summer Bay Resort in Vegas or do you work for the resort in any way?



Hi, 

Yes, I own three weeks I bought in the last 6 months.  I bought in anticipation of the move to the Desert Club.  I don't work for the organization, and have only been to the resort one time, this past June when I attended the owner's meeting.


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## janapur

krlorenz said:


> Once again thanks for all the input guys.  I don't really feel like fighting about land on the strip, etc.  I started this thread to get in touch with other owners that feel the same way I do.  I know they are out there because there were alot of dissatisfied people at one of the meetings in Vegas.  From the tone of this conversation, I understand why an owner would shy away from expressing any opinion other than give away their land and move while discussing the matter on this website.  You guys have definite opinions, but you don't have to try to degrade people and cut people down in the process.  Once again I am not going to fight.  Go somewhere else if you want to fight.  Time will tell whether the move goes through or not.  I have been able make contact with a few members that feel the same why I do and I know there are more out there.  Perhaps we just have to vent awhile.  So why don't you namer callers go somewhere else and play.


Speaking for myself only, the apprehension to join the crusade _against_ SB and the move to Desert Club might be due to the lack of information from those opposing the move. It sure sounds like a good idea if we can get more money from Harrahs, if we can receive more from the sales of the additional units, if . . . .

The risk is just too great. While the current deal is not exactly a bird in the hand, it certainly has a greater likelihood than any other plan I've heard. In fact, I've heard no other plans.

If an ad hoc committee can present the other options, you may have additional supporters. However, complaining about the sinners of the past will get us nowhere.

Jana


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## dougp26364

A discussion isn't necessarily a fight. Just because others might not agree 100% with your view and attempt to point out things you've overlooked does not make it a fight. On the other hand you seem to have made up your mind and will not remotely consider the possiblity that you're making a mistake. You seem to have an agenda to whip up support for killing the Summer Bay deal. As there aren't a lot of people jumping on your bandwagon I'd say there may not be as much support as you want to believe.

I see one fundamental error in your thinking. That is that you believe you actually own a piece of land on the strip. You do not own any significant amount of land nor do you own anything on the strip by simpy by virtue of proximity to it. I understand that moving further away can diminish the value of the land but it's not exactly land that you own so much as you own a 1/52 share of a condo. 

I know how you feel as we were sold the same line of BS when we purchased Polo Towers "Own a piece of the strip." Well guess what, that was a LIE. You were lied to by Ramada, I was lied to by DRI. There's no shame in admitting you were lied to but to make a matter go from bad to worse would be a shame. 

You have the opportunity to go from a non-five star down-on-it's-luck resort to a 5 star resort in the same general area you are in now. You have the opportunity to increase your exchange power. You have the opportunity to get your resort completely refurbished and have that refurbishment paid for out of someone elses pocket. But, instead of seeing that opportunity all you can see is the lies and failures of previous management companies. Management companies that have absolutely nothing to do with this deal. Management companies that are completely out of the picture. To blame Summer Bay and the current BOD/HOA for the failings of those that preceeded them is like blaming a new boss at work for everything wrong the old boss did. It has little to no foundation in common sense. 

Have you actully taken the time to calculate the value of your ownership? I did that with Polo Towers a couple of months ago when the land directly in front of it was sold for a few million dollars. If PT's sold for that same amount (keep in mind it's set back further from the strip) it really wouldn't amount to a hill of beans as far as cash to each indivual owner was concerned. You own 1/52 of a condo that is shared by everyone else in your developement. In the big picture that's a breadcrumb and not even a small slice of the pie. You'll get more than you would on E-bay but not enough to be worth the effort. Moving across the street or even 1/2 block further away from the strip will have little to no signifcant bearing on the value of your ownership in terms of cash value. It might, however, significantly increase your vacation value of your resort with the planned improvements.


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## roadtriper

krlorenz said:


> .  So why don't you namer callers go somewhere else and play.



Krlorenz,  I just re-read every single post in this thread, can you please point out where any one has called someone a name?  all of the folks who replied to your questions and statements have been on this board discussing Summer bay las vegas for years.  I'm glad you found TUG, and I think I can speak for everyone here that we welcome all discussions concerning the resort. but please don't ask US to "Go Somewhere else to PLay" just because we don't agree with your position.  Stick around! spend a few bucks and become a member of tug.  Lot's of very good info on this site.  and a lot of very nice Summer Bay Desert Club owners.   RT


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## krlorenz

Why would anyone want to buy a timeshare at a resort that is limbo like Summer Bay.  Unless a new buyer was lied to, too.  A salesman would have to have told a new buyer the situation, so why would someone buy?  My guess is new buyers were told the votes were in and the move was on.  Of course this is only a guess as to what may have happened.  Maybe a new buyer could give me some idea as to what the sales pitch might have been.


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## krlorenz

Roadtripers response doesn't surprise me abit.  Disagreement isn't the problem, it's the personal attacks I have a problem with.


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## janapur

roadtriper said:


> Krlorenz,  I just re-read every single post in this thread, can you please point out where any one has called someone a name?  all of the folks who replied to your questions and statements have been on this board discussing Summer bay las vegas for years.  I'm glad you found TUG, and I think I can speak for everyone here that we welcome all discussions concerning the resort. but please don't ask US to "Go Somewhere else to PLay" just because we don't agree with your position.  Stick around! spend a few bucks and become a member of tug.  Lot's of very good info on this site.  and a lot of very nice Summer Bay Desert Club owners.   RT



I believe I was called a "newbie."


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## roadtriper

krlorenz said:


> Roadtripers response doesn't surprise me abit.  Disagreement isn't the problem, it's the personal attacks I have a problem with.



???????????????????


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## Dave M

krlorenz said:


> ...it's the personal attacks I have a problem with.


As a moderator for these forums, one of my responsibilities is to ensure that any personal attacks are dealt with appropriately. I have no direct interest in Summer Bay, nor do I personally know any of the participants in this thread. Thus, I have no bias in this matter. I believe my track record as a moderator is such that it’s clear I don’t play favorites on a matter that requires moderating, nor do I favor long-time TUGgers over relative Newbies.

I have carefully reviewed every single post in this thread. I cannot find a single statement where someone has called you a name (as you allege) or has waged a personal attack on you. However, there have certainly been a fair number of strong disagreements with your views. 

Disagreements are normal and healthy. To expect that those who have strong views that differ from yours should avoid posting their views is unrealistic. You have strong views. So do they. Both are welcome here.

Finally, to accuse others of attacking you when, in fact, they haven't done so, is inappropriate for these forums. They have disagreed with your views (which is allowed) but have not attacked you (which would not be allowed). You may certainly counter any comments that are contrary to yours. But please do so without making such accusations. If you believe someone has violated the no-personal-attacks rule for these forums, please click on the red triangle to the left of that post and report it. A moderator will take appropriate action, if any action is appropriate.


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## krlorenz

OK.  You all have made your point.  Maybe I should have said new buyers.  If newbie is calling someone a name, if you are offended by that, you have my sincere apology.  I don't believe this conversation is going anywhere and unfortunately nobody that agrees with me would admit it, just got a personal message from someone that would apologize in private but not on sight, so lets just call this topic done.  I have made contacts with people privately through this discussion and can discuss this topic in an intelligent manner.


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## Sandy

krlorenz said:


> Why would anyone want to buy a timeshare at a resort that is limbo like Summer Bay.  Unless a new buyer was lied to, too.  A salesman would have to have told a new buyer the situation, so why would someone buy?  My guess is new buyers were told the votes were in and the move was on.  Of course this is only a guess as to what may have happened.  Maybe a new buyer could give me some idea as to what the sales pitch might have been.



Greetings, 

I am one of the new owners who bought (actually in January of this year).  I bought on ebay. I did so because I read here on this board about the upcoming sale, renovations, and move.  To me, it seemed a good idea, given that we like to visit LV and have stayed at the Marriott, Polo Towers, Jockey Club, HGVC, etc.  We own elsewhere, but really enjoy LV.  

When I attended the presentations at the above resorts, the units were always selling for way in excess of $10,000. I have NEVER paid that much for any timeshare, but always have been able to trade into the fabulous resorts listed above. 

When I realized that SB might be upgrading to a new 5 star gold crown resort, I got excited.  At that time, units could be had on ebay for well  under $1,000.  So I began some research and bought one.  

Then I read about the one bedrooms possibly being upgraded to 2 bedrooms in the lottery.  Again, I was excited because I bought a 1 bedroom.  

I attended the meeting in June, the first time for me to attend ANY timeshare owners meeeting.  Most of my other ownerships are out of the continental US. (Hawaii, Australia, Bahamas, St. Martin, South Africa, etc).  So I really wanted to own in the US, especially in Vegas. 

Where I stand now, I am still excited about the move.  The units are gorgeous, I took the tour in June.  This is icing on the cake - and I will be sorely disappointed if the move doesn't take place.  After all, I bought into a run down resort, not because I wanted to own a run down resort, but because I wanted to own a gold crown resort.  I know, I know, it was a risk, but one I was comfortable taking. 

Hope that answers your questions.


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## krlorenz

Sandy, did they tell you the move was on?  Did they tell there was no problem with owners signing over their deeds?  Did they tell you the majority of owners were happy with the move?  If they told anything like this, they lied to you.


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## Sandy

krlorenz said:


> Sandy, did they tell you the move was on?  Did they tell there was no problem with owners signing over their deeds?  Did they tell you the majority of owners were happy with the move?  If they told anything like this, they lied to you.



Hi, 

No, they told me that the process would begin as owners signed the paperwork.  In June, they had about 5-6000 signed I think.  As of earlier this week, that number was in excess of 14,000, but they told me that they had a pile of letters to open, all coming in before the upgrade deadline. 

I don't think that Sept 1 is a deadline for anything except the lottery.  Of course, they want to get as many deeds done as possible. But they expect to continue to do the deed paperwork well into the fall. 

The question I don't have an answer to is how many deeds need to be done to let the deal move forward.


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## janapur

krlorenz said:


> OK.  You all have made your point.  Maybe I should have said new buyers.  If newbie is calling someone a name, if you are offended by that, you have my sincere apology.  I don't believe this conversation is going anywhere and unfortunately nobody that agrees with me would admit it, just got a personal message from someone that would apologize in private but not on sight, so lets just call this topic done.  I have made contacts with people privately through this discussion and can discuss this topic in an intelligent manner.



I thought we were discussing this "in an intelligent manner." I also hope that discussions like this continue. I heard about the move to Desert Club on TUG (thanks to a post by MIMI, and why aren't you chiming in by the way ) and also bought unseen via ebay. We are also thrilled with the models and location of Desert Club and have our fingers crossed for the 2BR lottery. I am extremely interested in the views of those that oppose this move and would love to hear from others as to what we actually have to gain by holding out.

Regarding the name calling: of course I was kidding, hence the enormous grin  . I was merely trying to lighten up the mood. I've been called worse than a newbie. Just yesterday, my 3 yr old called me a poopy-butt!

Jana


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## krlorenz

Sandy where do you get your information as to how many deeds have been signed.  I will wait with great anticipation for your answer.


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## krlorenz

All of a sudden everyone has logged off and left the conversation.  Maybe you all are at various meetings etc.  I really do hope Sandy can answer my question as to how a person would get information on the number of deeds signed over but I really won't hold my breath.

I believe there are many special interests involved in this deal.  For example, when I called the help line for filling out the deed, etc., I asked the person on the phone whether or not she was an owner.  She stated she was, but that there was nothing wrong with that.  I agree that legally there was nothing wrong with a person trying to make a living providing a service.  I believe this is only the tip of the iceberg, I believe the board members making "a living" on this deal, I believe the development company has some kind of ownership in the resort, and I believe there might be other special interests that may be making a living while owning at the resort.  I'm sure it is legal, but I find it interesting that some owners can make a money off the deal, and others should be satisfied with an exchange of resorts.


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## roadtriper

krlorenz said:


> I was reading with much interest the thread on Summer Bay Resort Owners unite.  All of a sudden the dicussion ended.  I am wondering if the gentleman paul@premierbr.net has any more info for SBR owners.



Everyone else was/is wondering that also!  Mr. Evans (Paul) did a "Hit and Run"  and hasn't been heard from since.  my guess is he has been busy getting the 12 +/- deeds for the intervals he purchased last year ready for the transfer!  after all he seemed like a savy businessman, he would be foolish to pass up the oportunity to get 50% +/- of those one bedrooms upgraded to a 2 Bdrm. for free.   But again thats just my humble opinion. I suggest that you email him and ask him directly  his name is Paul Evans and his email address is no secret   Paul@premierbr.net   RT


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## krlorenz

Roadtriper I was actually talking about the conversation we are having right now.  I have no idea what you are referring to in your post.  I am still waiting for my question to Sandy to be answered.  Where do you get your info on the numbers of deeds signed over at Summer Bay in Vegas?  I am very interested in your response to this question.


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## Sandy

krlorenz said:


> All of a sudden everyone has logged off and left the conversation.  Maybe you all are at various meetings etc.  I really do hope Sandy can answer my question as to how a person would get information on the number of deeds signed over _*but I really won't hold my breath*_.




Wow, please give me a minute to respond. I am teaching classes and I do have to work!!  I am not sure why you think I would not respond to your question.  On this board, sometimes we post and don't get back to reading the board until days later. Especially if we have a career and family to tend to. But today, I have already posted at least 5 times this morning!  As an interested owner, I will read as much as I can on this subject and post if I feel that I can contribute information.  No need to hold your breath with me!!

I got my info when I called Customer Services on Monday. I called to make sure that they had received my paperwork and I asked Andrea how many have signed so far. She really has her hands full! I also asked this question earlier, and got a smaller number.  You might call directly and see how  many they have as of today.


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## timeos2

*16,000? 21,000?  When does it get the green light?*

Sandy - Any idea how many they need to make the project a go? It doesn't have to be 100% but what is the magic number?

You can reply anytime you have a chance


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## Sandy

That is the magic question.  I have asked, but not gotten a response. I will try again to get an answer, and if you do the same perhaps we can compare responses.


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## Sandy

krlorenz said:


> Roadtriper  I have no idea what you are referring to in your post.



OK, now I am really confused!!!

krlorenz, your first post in this very thread mentions Paul.  I thought that is what you were asking about!! Now you say you have no idea what roadtripper is referring to? Re-read your first post.  YOU asked about Paul, and roadtripper was just mentioning him.  Did you forget?


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## krlorenz

Roadtriper do you actually think anyones name will be drawn from a hat or whatever for a free upgrade.  I think maybe that is just a pitch to get people to sign over their deed faster.  Only special people will be included in that drawing and if you believe everyones name will be included if sent in by a certain time, then I have a bridge that I could sell you.


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## krlorenz

Nope Sandy, I was referring to the conversation taking place today.  It seems as if you all are back from your "meeting".  Answer my question Sandy.  Where do you get your info on the deed count at Summer Bay Resort in Vegas.


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## Sandy

You really are having trouble today, aren't you. I already answer you in thread #48 at 11:56. Please read there.


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## krlorenz

Sorry Sandy your response ended up on the bottom of the thread, I missed it.  So you teach.  So do I.   And no I am not "really having trouble today".  This would be my first attempt at forum communication, please excuse my blunder.


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## roadtriper

krlorenz said:


> All of a sudden everyone has logged off and left the conversation.  Maybe you all are at various meetings etc.  I really do hope Sandy can answer my question as to how a person would get information on the number of deeds signed over but I really won't hold my breath.



If you call IMI Partners at 1-800-992-5513 and ask them NICELY, I bet they will give you the same answer.   RT


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## Sandy

Perhaps everyone already knows this, but the current SB had 25,428 intervals over 489 physical suites. The new Desert Club Las Vegas will have 33,956 intervals over 653 physical suites.  

So there is an excess of units, thus the upgrades. ALL studio and suite units were automatically upgraded to one bedrooms.  About 40% of the one bedrooms will be upgraded to 2 bedrooms through the lottery.  Most of this, as well as the descriptions of the units, photos, layouts, etc, can be found at:
www.deedexchange.summerbayresort.com


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## janapur

krlorenz said:


> All of a sudden everyone has logged off and left the conversation.  Maybe you all are at various meetings etc.  I really do hope Sandy can answer my question as to how a person would get information on the number of deeds signed over but I really won't hold my breath.
> 
> I believe there are many special interests involved in this deal.  For example, when I called the help line for filling out the deed, etc., I asked the person on the phone whether or not she was an owner.  She stated she was, but that there was nothing wrong with that.  I agree that legally there was nothing wrong with a person trying to make a living providing a service.  I believe this is only the tip of the iceberg, I believe the board members making "a living" on this deal, I believe the development company has some kind of ownership in the resort, and I believe there might be other special interests that may be making a living while owning at the resort.  I'm sure it is legal, but I find it interesting that some owners can make a money off the deal, and others should be satisfied with an exchange of resorts.




I guess I don't understand what exactly it is that you wish to happen, besides turn back the clock so that you can see through the lies which you were told. If you are not "satisfied with an exchange of resorts" what is that you are expecting?

With regard to employees owning at the resort, I suspect that they see the potential increase in value once the resort moves. I spoke to several staff members/salespeople that owned a number of weeks. Do you see this as a conflict of interest or the truest support as advocates of where they work? I see it as the latter. 

Jana


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## krlorenz

But are they telling the trueth, or just putting out propaganda to persuade owners to sign over their deeds.  I don't know what to think.  They have lied repeatedly in the past, the board has refused to give out information in the past, have ignored emails in the past.  Do you think they will tell the trueth about the deed count.  I just don't know what to think.


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## Sandy

Good points Jana, 

I also spoke to my "salesperson" (the one trying to get me to pay $$$ for points) and he owns at SB. He said most of the sales staff owns there too.


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## krlorenz

Janapur, I just want to talk about it.  Just like you do.  You have an agenda for responding to this topic, that is evident.  I have an agenda also.  Lets just leave it at that.  I think it is important to discuss things.  I would never have known that now I can call the number Sandy gave and get the tally on the deed count.  Especially when I have done it in the past, I couldn't get a straight answer.  Maybe they were really having trouble that day.  I guess I should be able to relate to that.


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## krlorenz

Sandy you are correct, most salespeople are owners.  I am saying new companies have been formed by owners to make money on this venture.  And yes it is legal.  But if they can make money why can't everyone have a piece of the very big pie.


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## roadtriper

krlorenz said:


> Roadtriper do you actually think anyones name will be drawn from a hat or whatever for a free upgrade.  I think maybe that is just a pitch to get people to sign over their deed faster.  Only special people will be included in that drawing and if you believe everyones name will be included if sent in by a certain time, then I have a bridge that I could sell you.



Wow!  you just suspect everything is a conspiracy    the "Special People" are those 1 bedroom owners who have their paperwork in by tomorrow night.   if you are a 1 bedroom "Fountians" owner your automaticaly
upgraded to a 2 bedroom in the new complex  without being a "Special People"


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## Sandy

And if you were a studio unit owner, as I mentioned, you are also the "special people."  Perhaps we should call these the "automatic special people" so we don't confuse them with the "lottery special people."


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## timeos2

*Fatal flaw with Paul's proposal*

I think I have found why Paul, the guy who dropped by to seemingly stir up the SBLV owners to reject the current treansfer plan, has dropped out of sight. His proposal/plan/complaint that the SB owners weren't getting enough for the development rights may have been trumped by the bankruptcy actions under the old, not current, BOD. From the FAQ on the SBLV website regarding the proposed move: 

*"As stated above, as a result of a U.S. Bankruptcy Court ruling, Harrah’s owns the redevelopment rights to the land on which the resort sits. The Board feels that this relocation has created a wonderful opportunity for the owners to secure future use and enjoyment of their deeded timeshare in a significantly upgraded and stable facility, while eliminating the redevelopment controversy. We believe Harrah’s will utilize every legal remedy to exercise their redevelopment rights. The Association will abandon the timeshare regime at the current resort and relocate to the Las Vegas Desert Club, and your interest in the current resort will be extinguished."*

So those rights he feels are valued so highly - and in fact they may be - do NOT belong to the current SBLV owners but legally to Harrah's by Court order. If this plan is rejected they don't get to resell them to the highest bidder but simply go back into costly court battles with Harrah's.  

As I stated early this year it looks like the current BOD has managed to make lemonade out of a terrible batch of rotten lemons.  Given that one additional piece of information that at least I hadn't heard before the current plan is by far the best way to go and will give the current owners the most they can expect from the deal.  Killing it won't get them more but will almost certainly guarantee they will lose what they own or pay more to get a replacement.


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## krlorenz

I expected that response from one or all of you.  Wish I had the time to figure out how to put one of the smilies in my post, but as I look through them none of them quite show the message I would like to send.

Just as Sandy has to teach once in a while, I have to run some errands once in a while.  So I must sign off for now.  I was thinking about this Paul guy.  Maybe he left the conversation because you guys, and it seems to be the same bunch, had the same attitude about his opinion as you do about mine.  Perhaps he doesn't feel comfortable sharing any info he has with you.  I guess I can relate to that.  But it is interesting to get other opinions on the subject.  We shall see what happens, hopefully everyone is satisified in the end.  Bye-Bye for the day.  Everyone have a great day.


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## krlorenz

timeos2, thank you for that post.  But I have read that before and understand it exactly what it says.  Nice try, but I really gotta go.  Have a great day.


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## krlorenz

As a moderator here I'm deleted this post. 

Please there is no reason to address the subject of why someone has the time to post.

Please, Be nice.


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## krlorenz

Sorry about that.  It's so nice to know you look after people like you do.  I will try to be more sensitive to situations like this in the future.


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## krlorenz

If I may ask, who is the moderator on this thread?


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## Dave M

I have deleted two posts that commented on the moderating of this thread. Such comments - either pro or con - are not permitted on the forums. Please see the "Posting Rules", accessible from the above blue bar, for details. 

As to your question about moderating, the TUG BBS is staffed entirely by unpaid volunteers, all of whom have other lives. Thus, there is no single moderator for a particular thread. Any moderator who sees a problem is empowered and expected to deal with it.

If you have additional questions or comments about moderating, you may send me a Private Message or send an e-mail to admin@tugbbs.com


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## krlorenz

Well I think it is time to say good-bye.  Thanks for the insightful conversation.  I understand what has been going now.  No need to continue this discussion as far as I am concerned.


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## dougp26364

krlorenz said:


> Why would anyone want to buy a timeshare at a resort that is limbo like Summer Bay.  Unless a new buyer was lied to, too.  A salesman would have to have told a new buyer the situation, so why would someone buy?  My guess is new buyers were told the votes were in and the move was on.  Of course this is only a guess as to what may have happened.  Maybe a new buyer could give me some idea as to what the sales pitch might have been.



I thought about buying a unit on speculation that the transfer would take place and the value of the resort as a timeshare (not in cash) would improve. I didn't because we already own 7 timeshares and just don't have room for another plus, I already have 4 weeks in Vegas. 

Some of us who have watched whats gone on at Summer Bay Las Vegas believe this is a good deal that would add value to the resort and weeks have been available at bargain basement prices. Thus, they are speculating on a great deal with the lower price and new resort rather than believing any lies a salesman might have told them.


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## roadtriper

[_Message deleted. As I have previously requested, please make no further comments in this thread about moderating. The question you addressed has already been answered._ Dave M, BBS Moderator]


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## dougp26364

timeos2 said:


> Sandy - Any idea how many they need to make the project a go? It doesn't have to be 100% but what is the magic number?
> 
> You can reply anytime you have a chance




I'm wondering if it's a simple majority or a super majority of owners. My bet is it's more than a simple majority as this would be a major decision to make. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes 66-75% of the owners to approve the move in order to get the job done.


----------



## dougp26364

timeos2 said:


> I think I have found why Paul, the guy who dropped by to seemingly stir up the SBLV owners to reject the current treansfer plan, has dropped out of sight. His proposal/plan/complaint that the SB owners weren't getting enough for the development rights may have been trumped by the bankruptcy actions under the old, not current, BOD. From the FAQ on the SBLV website regarding the proposed move:
> 
> *"As stated above, as a result of a U.S. Bankruptcy Court ruling, Harrah’s owns the redevelopment rights to the land on which the resort sits. The Board feels that this relocation has created a wonderful opportunity for the owners to secure future use and enjoyment of their deeded timeshare in a significantly upgraded and stable facility, while eliminating the redevelopment controversy. We believe Harrah’s will utilize every legal remedy to exercise their redevelopment rights. The Association will abandon the timeshare regime at the current resort and relocate to the Las Vegas Desert Club, and your interest in the current resort will be extinguished."*
> 
> So those rights he feels are valued so highly - and in fact they may be - do NOT belong to the current SBLV owners but legally to Harrah's by Court order. If this plan is rejected they don't get to resell them to the highest bidder but simply go back into costly court battles with Harrah's.
> 
> As I stated early this year it looks like the current BOD has managed to make lemonade out of a terrible batch of rotten lemons.  Given that one additional piece of information that at least I hadn't heard before the current plan is by far the best way to go and will give the current owners the most they can expect from the deal.  Killing it won't get them more but will almost certainly guarantee they will lose what they own or pay more to get a replacement.




It's been my experience that, in Vegas, money is power and power talks, others walk. HET owns maybe 35-40% of the strip and is a major player. If they have the developement rights to that land and really want to develope it, it won't take much to get a court order in Vegas to get rid of Summer Bay. If you don't think there's some serious power brokers in Vegas then just ask Donald Trump how hard it can be to get any sort of foot hold into the action. 

It appears to me that Summer Bay owners may have little choice but to move. There were a few hold outs around the old Desert Inn golf course that were trying to hold Steve Wynn up for more money. Anyone know who that turned out for the few hold outs on that deal? Last I knew he was just going to build around them and wall them off. I wonder what that did to the value of those rather expensive homes?


----------



## Dave M

dougp26364 said:


> There were a few hold outs around the old Desert Inn golf course that were trying to hold Steve Wynn up for more money. Anyone know who that turned out for the few hold outs on that deal?


There were 10 holdouts. "A bitter four-year legal battle ended in March 2004 when the holdouts received a total of $23 million for their homes - in some cases, getting double Wynn's initial offer...."

However, that's unusual. In most cases, holdouts against the casino giants in Las Vegas, make out very poorly when the dust settles.


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## dougp26364

Dave M said:


> There were 10 holdouts. "A bitter four-year legal battle ended in March 2004 when the holdouts received a total of $23 million for their homes - in some cases, getting double Wynn's initial offer...."
> 
> However, that's unusual. In most cases, holdouts against the casino giants in Las Vegas, make out very poorly when the dust settles.



Then I may have to rethink my conspiracy theories concerning the power brokers, the gaming commision and the court sytems in Vegas.


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## timeos2

*Terminating the timeshare means end of ownership*



dougp26364 said:


> It appears to me that Summer Bay owners may have little choice but to move. There were a few hold outs around the old Desert Inn golf course that were trying to hold Steve Wynn up for more money. Anyone know who that turned out for the few hold outs on that deal? Last I knew he was just going to build around them and wall them off. I wonder what that did to the value of those rather expensive homes?



And pay close attention to the last line: 

* The Association will abandon the timeshare regime at the current resort and relocate to the Las Vegas Desert Club, and your interest in the current resort will be extinguished.*

What that means is IF the magic number of acceptance is reached, most likely a super majority of 50% +1 of 66.6% of all current owners, and an owner opts not to take part they will be left with no ownership.  They will not be transferred unless they agree and, once the move actually occurs, the existing resort will be terminated and so will their ownership.  I hope those that plan to hold out read and understand that process.


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## Sandy

*As of yesterday...*

As of yesterday, there have been 13,851 deeds exchanged. 

What is the magic number?
Somewhere between 60-70%

BUT, I found out that Harrahs is determining/controlling the magic number because they control the land and redevelopment rights.  The speculation is that they are looking to see that 60-70% of the owners are onboard before they begin the move. 

Also, the lottery for the free upgrades will be conducted by an independent accounting firm on Sept 28. 

Hope this info is helpful.


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## spatenfloot

[_Edited to delete inappropriate message. Please post politely or not at all._ Dave M, Moderator]


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## timeos2

Sandy said:


> As of yesterday, there have been 13,851 deeds exchanged.
> 
> What is the magic number?
> Somewhere between 60-70%
> 
> BUT, I found out that Harrahs is determining/controlling the magic number because they control the land and redevelopment rights.  The speculation is that they are looking to see that 60-70% of the owners are onboard before they begin the move.
> 
> Also, the lottery for the free upgrades will be conducted by an independent accounting firm on Sept 28.
> 
> Hope this info is helpful.



I doubt that Harrah's controls the "magic number". That should be set in the original condo docs or by state regulations.  But something near 70% - which is around 17,500 weeks by my estimation - should be the tipping point no matter who gets to set it. Sounds like they need a little over 3,500 more transfers to complete the deal. 

Maybe it still can be a reality. For the owners sake I hope so.  Then the nay-sayers can decide if they simply want to forfeit or take part in the new move.  The majority will have a much better and hopefully more valuable resort in the near future.


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## Sandy

Good point John, 

The info I posted above comes from the person answering the phone.  He did have the exact number (he said, "wait a minute, I'll tell you exactly the number of deeds transfered"), but the other info might be suspect. 

He said that the "speculation" was 60-70%, according to most of the staff onsite.

When I pressed him on this, he did not have further info.  Your point about the details in the docs makes sense. 

The Sept date seems reasonable, giving them time to assemble the actual deed that qualify for the two bedroom upgrade.


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## Sandy

I just thought of something else. 

If owners wish to forfeit their units, these will probably revert to the owner's association to resell at the new resort.

Seems reasonable?


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## roadtriper

Sandy said:


> As of yesterday, there have been 13,851 deeds exchanged.
> 
> What is the magic number?
> Somewhere between 60-70%
> 
> BUT, I found out that Harrahs is determining/controlling the magic number because they control the land and redevelopment rights.  The speculation is that they are looking to see that 60-70% of the owners are onboard before they begin the move.
> 
> Also, the lottery for the free upgrades will be conducted by an independent accounting firm on Sept 28.
> 
> Hope this info is helpful.


Thanks sandy, that puts us at about 54-55%   right now  RT


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## dougp26364

I'm having a hard time believing the the HOA/BOD doesn't know the exact number of contracts that have to agree to the move. As stated something like that should clearly stated in the project documents or the rules governing what the HOA/BOD can/can't do without owner approval. The simply HAVE to know what that number is for them to legally proceed with this move. A vague figure in a legal matter just does not work. 

It's stuff like this that gives the OP a little credibility about not being told the truth and lies being told. The HOA/BOD must be upfront and honest or they risk losing credibility.


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## LilaG

I called IMI today and got the same information as Sandy.  About 14000 owners have signed.  The upgrade drawing will be September 28.  Maybe the date was extended to give time to process all of the deeds that are postmarked before September 1.  With the Labor Day holiday, many of those deeds will not be received until September 4.  The person I spoke with did not know the percentage required to finalize the transfer, but felt optimistic that the transfer would go through. 

I am looking forward to staying in a newly renovated timeshare.  I know that in 10 years or so it may need to be renovated again.  Like any other "house", walls need repainting, plumbing needs repairing, and furniture needs replacing.  That's part of ownership of anything; you have to take care of it and fix it.

I see it as a win-win situation.   I don't expect to be able to sell them for more and I don't expect the maintenance to remain the same forever.  But I do expect to be more comfortable sleeping on a new mattress and having a shiny new kitchen.  Since I stay at the resort for my vacations, being in a nicer place is important to me.  So it's an extra block to walk.  After eating at all the buffets, I can use the exercise.  And if I don't want to walk, then I have to schedule my time to make the shuttle or take a cab.   It will cost me nothing to move to the new resort, and the new resort will be nicer than this one.  Maybe I'll even be upgraded to a two bedroom.  If not, the one bedroom deluxe is still bigger than my one bedroom Villas.

I don't understand what people are upset about.  This is costing us nothing and a Gold Crown resort will have more trading power.  Maybe we should be getting more than we're being offered, but what I will be getting more than I currently have.  

As far as the hold outs are concerned, nobody can make them sign anything.  Hopefully, there are more of us than there are of them and we won't end up losing this offer.  If we do, I'm getting rid of my Summer Bay Las Vegas timeshares because I won't stay in that dump again, and I don't want to pay a hefty maintenance fee increase or special assessment to fix it up.


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## anne1125

Boy, I can't wait until the exchange to Desert Club is done.  I bought this timeshare to use or exchange 4 yrs. ago and have never been disappointed but the new place looks awesome.

I hope the complaints and the greed stop and the move can begin soon.

(Still keeping my fingers crossed for the lottery).

Anne


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## Sandy

LilaG mentioned the shuttle, and that is a big point. I know that the future plans call for Harrahs to build on the lot where SB exists now.  Harrahs intends to take over that block, thus bringing the "strip" to our door. 

I know it is not really the strip, but we will be able to go across the street, enter into this new casino/complex, walk through if we want, lose some money  and then exit on the strip.  Since there is no more real strip front property, the casinos are building back into the lots. I think that is Harrahs intention. 

Just MHO


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## dougp26364

LilaG said:


> .......I don't understand what people are upset about.  This is costing us nothing and a Gold Crown resort will have more trading power.  Maybe we should be getting more than we're being offered, but what I will be getting more than I currently have.......



After all of the broken promises of previous management companies and havng the resort literally run into the ground by the management company prior to Summer Bay (Leisure resorts I think it was called), I can understand the total distrust of some owners. I think it's misplaced since there is a new management company and, from what I understand, a new HOA. 

By completely shutting down any new management company and a new HOA board that's trying hard to improve the situation just because the previos management team as nothing but lying scoundrels they're shutting off any opportunity to improve the situation.


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## spatenfloot

dougp26364 said:


> I'm having a hard time believing the the HOA/BOD doesn't know the exact number of contracts that have to agree to the move. As stated something like that should clearly stated in the project documents or the rules governing what the HOA/BOD can/can't do without owner approval. The simply HAVE to know what that number is for them to legally proceed with this move. A vague figure in a legal matter just does not work.


According to the emails I've seen, the agreement with Harrah's allows for closing at 80%. Harrah's can set that percentage lower if they wish, but it is not expected.


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## spatenfloot

anne1125 said:


> I hope the complaints and the greed stop and the move can begin soon.


Yes, some people are misguided or just greedy and foolish.  Maybe they believed the pitch from salesweasels.  A timeshare is NOT a condo. It is not the same as wholly owned real estate.  All we are entitled to is a week in a timeshare unit, that's all we own.  This is a historic deal for owners and one that is unlikely to be repeated. Many old timeshares simply end up in permanent closure or dissolution. We don't want that to happen here.


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## Sandy

Thank you for that 80% figure.  

Hopefully, with influx of deeds that arrived this week to beat the upgrade deadline, they will be very close. 

Deed exchanges will probably continue in the fall, until they reach that number.  Harrahs doesn't want the deal to go sour either.  It is a win-win-win for most, but certainly not all, interested parties.


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## JoeMO

*Sales Prices*

I have been following the sales of SB LV on eBay and noticed that they prices have gone down a lot.  A short time ago they were selling for $1,200 to $1,500 and now they are getting around $500.  I guess I should look on the bright side and buy another one.  

Maybe it is just a seasonal thing or a temporary downturn.  My first thought was that the prices have been influenced by the negative talk on TUG about the exchange.  But after thinking that through I concluded that of all the people bidding on eBay for timeshare, only a small fraction would be TUG members.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks, 
Joe


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## Sandy

Those ebay prices sure do fluctuate!  The range was a bit higher a few months ago, when the news was fresh. 

Most of the ebay sales are for 1 bedrooms. Perhaps people now wishing for the one bedroom upgrades realize that they do not have the time (time is over now).

But still, timeshare pricing is rather seasonal, I have heard. Summer months seem to be the best. Anyone buying now will still get the newer units. 

I have also noticed that many ebay sellers, who have already made their money, do not even realize the fact that the resort will be moving. 

It might be a real mess later on when the transfer is ongoing, because they will be selling an old deed to a resort that has already moved!  Buyers beware. But perhaps the resort has a plan in place for all remaining deeds to transfer. Or, perhaps these old deeds will just revert to the owner's association to resell.  One never knows what will happen.


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## LilaG

JoeMO said:


> I have been following the sales of SB LV on eBay and noticed that they prices have gone down a lot.  A short time ago they were selling for $1,200 to $1,500 and now they are getting around $500.  I guess I should look on the bright side and buy another one.
> 
> Maybe it is just a seasonal thing or a temporary downturn.  My first thought was that the prices have been influenced by the negative talk on TUG about the exchange.  But after thinking that through I concluded that of all the people bidding on eBay for timeshare, only a small fraction would be TUG members.
> 
> Anyone have any ideas?
> 
> Thanks,
> Joe



You don't have to be a TUG member to know there is negative talk about the Harrah's takeover.  I've seen it other places besides TUG.  I belong to a Celebrity Resorts users group on Yahoo.com, and the owners' possible sabotage of the move to the new resort was mentioned there.  People who buy timeshares on Ebay are usually timeshare owners at other resorts.  They know what's going on.  Originally, when we all heard that Harrah's bought the redevelopment rights, the prices on Ebay started to climb.  I think people thought that Harrah's would buy them out and they would make money.  Then when we heard that they would be exchanging for a new resort with Gold Crown standing, the prices stopped rising.  Once the word got out that the transfer might not take place, the prices started to fall.  There's a lot of timeshares on Ebay that go for $1 plus closing costs.  Summer Bay Las Vegas will be among them if this deal is not finalized.


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## jackio

I just returned from Las Vegas and stopped in at Summer Bay while I was there.  We signed our deed transfer in Feb. but there was no physical model to see.  I took a tour of the model a few days ago and it is lovely.  I have owned at Summer Bay for 2 years.  I bought 2 studio units off Ebay, one for $142.50 and one for $126.00.   This goes to show you the market value of the resort before talk of the buyout.  I visited there in Feb. 2006 for the 1st time.  I was dismayed at the outside appearance of the units, in the small crowded square building groups.  However, I learned that the inside of the units were clean and well maintained. The grounds were kept up, as were the pools.  The main building was lovely, and the staff was helpful.  I gave credit to the HOA for doing the best they could with what they had.  I accepted that the resort, in its present state, could never attain Gold Crown Status.  When I heard about the Desert Club deal, I was thrilled.  First of all, I was to be upgraded to 1BRs.  Secondly, the units were to be brand new and beautiful.  Thirdly, the new resort wasn't going to cost me anything.  I couldn't see any downside to it.
Yes, the land Summer Bay sits on is valuable, but to whom?  It's all relative.  It's not valuable unless someone is willing to pay you for it.  Our small HOA is not going to muscle Harrah's for any more money.  I think they have done a good job, and I am looking forward to the move.


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## roadtriper

Jacki, how busy was the sales office this past week??? when we were there in June it was a zoo!  just wondering if there is still a lot of folks doing the "free mini vacations" to get the paperwork transfered?  what was the overall atmosphere/mood?   Thanks RT


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## jackio

The sales center was steady but not crazy.  There were 4 couples waiting for sales reps when we got there for our 1:15 appointment.  I saw one couple come down from above with papers in hand followed by the notary and a smiling salesman, so I guess they either upgraded or were new buyers.  By the way, Carrie the hostess has 2-for-1 Harrah's buffet coupons that she will gladly give you.


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## paul@premierbr.net

Good Morning Guys.  At the request of many I want to make sure you guys know I am still available.  Most of you know my opinion regarding the situation but for those of you who do not, I still feel it is not in the best interest of the owners to allow the developer to steal the meat out of the deal Harrahs has offered.  I am and have always been an advocate of fairness to all but the hog in the deal is and has always been the developer.

As many of you know I am and will continue to be available at my email address paul@premierbr.net .

It amuses me the misinformation and arguements of those who are absolutely clueless of the facts or have personal agendas.  However, for those who have an interest in the truths of the deal but don't want to get in senseless debate on this message board you can feel free to email me anytime.  I have been extremely busy the last month or so with business but do appreciate your comments.  Unlike your present board, I believe a deal can only be reached when ALL of the concerns of EVERY owner have been addressed.  And unlike your present board I will respond to you in a straight forward manner.

I would advise those who are truely concerned about Summer Bay deal not to provide to many facts or reasonable arguements on this message board or you maybe attacked for your opinions.  Additionally, the moderator is not even unbiased if you read his remarks on this thread as was the case on the Summer Bay Owners Unite tread.  It was clearly pointed out on the previous thread and acknowledge by him that the bylaws required an 80% owner approval to make the deal happen but he plays ignorant above.  We made it very clear to him the truths of the deal with Summer Bay so he is not as ignorant of the situation as he would have you believe.  There are a lot of interests and hundreds of millions of dollars at stake here and certain powerful parties have and will continue to unleash their propaganda machines to do whatever to make sure they don't lose out.  All of the people they have assembled to sell this "great" deal to you are timeshare salemen and terrible ones at that.  I continue to hear the same horror stories that my wife and I had to endure.  Just be careful and remember you do not have to sign any papers if you don't want and they will not be able to take your ownership away at this time without going through proper judicial channels.  At this time that is simply not going to happen.  They are flat out lying to you if they say otherwise.  In fact, listen very carefully to their scripted words.  As Bill Clinton said, "It depends on what your definition of "is" is."  

For those of you who do not have the email addresses of each of your board members and would like them, just email me that request.  I can't promise you will get any response at all from them but at least they can continue to hear your concerns.  James Reach has responded sparingly on this board so you know he is reading.  But, I have personally directed all of your board members to this board so they read everything posted, I promise you.  I feel for the couple of "good" board members we have because they have been painted in a corner by the corrupt and developer appointed board members.  They have all been threatened for their positions to keep mum on certain facts or risk removal from the board.  Shameful but true.

For those of you who want to confuse who the "greedy" hog is on this deal, again, I have to remind you it is the developer.  The facts of the transaction were uncovered and provided on previous threads and they remain unbiased truths.  The developer has made a deal with himself through our "stacked' board, to purchase each week at the Dessert Club, once renovated, for less than $1400 a week, after and only after they sell it first for upwards or over $20,000.  They claim they have expenses and big fat sales commissions (big fat was my word) to pay, so they can only give us pennies on the dollar for our surplus of units.  Why not offer the additional units to the present owners at that price?  Oh that's right, the developer can't make tens of millions of dollars that way. But why should we care what happens to the 30% additional units we're to receive from Harrah's, they weren't ours to begin with?  Well, neither was the equity my house has gone up in value but I'm not going to give that away to a timeshare company either. Additionally, for those who were at the owner's meeting, do you remember that timeshare salesman Mr. Caldwell offering you $1000-1200 for your units if you were interested? I do.  But then he squirmed away because neither he nor his backers have or can come up with the money if they had to.  He also knew that thousands of the present owners currently owe more than that on their units and the fact if this deal went through his salesgroup was going to sell them for 10-20times that amount. That's why they used the inside information, went behind closed doors, browbeat our board and constructed a deal for themselves quickly and without owner approval or consent.  So here we are.

Finally,  Mr. Moderator.  A moderator is suppose to be just that.  The between of the two sides, not an advocate for one.

Will be in touch later. 
Sincerely,  Paul Evans, Summer Bay owner.


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## roadtriper

Welcome back Paul,  I stand corrected as I refered to you as a "Hit and Run" poster.  My appologies.   

I do have to say...  I think it's somewhat self serving on your part to state that folks can get the truth by emailing you directly as opposed to discusing things in an open forum of SB owners and other concerned individuals RT


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## paul@premierbr.net

roadtriper said:


> Welcome back Paul,  I stand corrected as I refered to you as a "Hit and Run" poster.  My appologies.
> 
> I do have to say...  I think it's somewhat self serving on your part to state that folks can get the truth by emailing you directly as opposed to discusing things in an open forum of SB owners and other concerned individuals RT



Hello Roadtripper, I'm not being self serving at all.  There are many people who have ideas they want to share but don't speak up in open forums for whatever reason.  I have spoken with board members who for obvious reasons don't want to be called out.  If that were the case you would have to ask your board why all of their actions and decisions were made behind closed doors or hidden from open discussion with the owners prior to agreeing to something many owners are dissapointed in.  The developer did certainly have self-serving reasons though.

As stated above I've been extremely busy with my business and wanted to see what others thought without reply.

Nice of you notice my absence though.


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## paul@premierbr.net

spatenfloot said:


> It ended because too many people realize that he has a vested interest in killing the deal. It is in the best interest for most owners for the proposed transfer to go through as it is.



What do you mean spatenfoot?  I'm an owner in Summer Bay and if by having a vested interest you mean that of an owner, then you're correct.  If you meant something else feel free to respond.  Are you an owner?


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## paul@premierbr.net

timeos2 said:


> What you bought was a sales pitch and a piece of one unit in a larger development that you own 1 seven day minuscule slice of. Even calling that property land "on the strip" is a stretch but, if someone such as Harrahs builds far enough back, it can be. Meanwhile the existing resort is a disaster that, until the upgrade was announced, almost couldn't be given away and is readily available at will on rent or trade.
> 
> Along comes a developer, who plans to make money no doubt, to move your tiny slice to a week in another resort, very close to the original, that will be a major upgrade both in quality and value at no cost to you.  But some feel thats not enough. They want more - cash in hand. Well, if you want that, try selling your existing rights. Find out what your 1/52 of one small slice of a building on land near the strip is actually worth. You have nothing else to sell and you own nothing else. Asking for profits/development rights you don't control - the Association of all owners does - may not be the smartest move. Unless you do plan to simply give up on your ownership in which case you'll get what you expect. Nothing.
> 
> Every time this type of thing comes up - someone talking about how much a resort/property is worth if sold off for development - I can only laugh. Here is an opportunity no one could expect being offered to the owners of a, ahem, rather downtrodden resort and it might be quashed. And what will you own then? Once again try to sell the slice you feel is so valuable. Good luck.
> 
> Unbelievable.



Mr. Chase, as you can see on the previous post I have to start calling you out.  What do you do for a living?  What makes you the expert on all of the posts you have made in favor of the deal?  Do you own Summer Bay time?  Have you attended any of the meetings? Where are you getting your information to make the statements and claims you make?  Are you in the pockets of the developer?  Are you in the real estate, mortgage, development, timeshare business?  Please give us your credentials that make it all right for you to not be an unbiased moderator but an advocate for the deal.  You even added a tag line by your name about people asking for more.  What you don't have in your tag line are people asking for what is rightfully theirs.  You talk about people not attacking others but then mention how you have to laugh at them for certain things they may bring up.  Some may take that as an attack.  I also don't think you referring to our resort as downtrodden is very professional or unbiased either.  What am I saying?  In reviewing all of your posts it's not hard to see where you stand.  What do we have to do to get an unbiased moderator?

I am asking you for all of this for everyone concerned.  Your turn sir.  Enough is enough.

Paul Evans


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## paul@premierbr.net

timeos2 said:


> You and your fellow owners elect the Board. They are your voice. As far as I know, but you can correct me if I'm wrong, SB is under owner Board control - the developer does not control the BOD.  If so you have the method to change things if you don't like the direction. Vote the Board out and elect one you feel better represents you. It can be done, it has been done and the power of a properly informed and unified owner base can defeat the most powerful interests.
> 
> You certainly have a right to all details and players. If you make official requests - in writing - for that information from the Management/Board they would be fools to deny you as then you do have a case against them.  Of course you'd have to sue and cover the legal costs but it is your right.
> 
> As for your overall experience Doug does have it right. The only thing you bought, like it or not, fair or not, is what your documents state. Especially almost 20 years ago the "standards" for timeshare sales weren't even what they are today. And today buyers STILL get sold a picture of one thing and a deed/club/tust that may be another.
> 
> It sounds like you would be best served by ending your relationship with SB as an owner.  It's not worth the hassles or heartache it seems to be causing you. Or band your fellow owners together to come up with another Board/plan. Simply scuttling the current plan with no back up options is not a great move IMO.



I'm going to correct you sir.  The developer appoints 3 of the 11 spots.  Most owners do not show up to vote in person but send back their proxies to allow for board business to take place.  The board takes those proxies and votes themselves back in.  For those board members who want to remain board members they had better go along with the developer or will be voted out.  With 25,000 owners, most think sending in proxies is the right thing to do.  but they are giving their proxies to the wrong people, the very people who stand to make millions off of making agreements with themselves.  I have had board members tell me they couldn't speak with me about certain things for fear they would be asked to resign their spots.  The only way to get control back from the board would be to have access to the 25,000 owners and tell them what is happening, but Summer Bay is reluctant to give anyone that information for fear of exactly what we're talking about.  If the owners take charge again the developer stands to lose millions. Period.  

It would be nice to believe the owners had any control though.

This is the very thing I have consulted with attorneys about, getting access to the owners to provide all of them with an opportunity to vote new board members without any personal agendas or fear of the developer.  There is a saying, "Power corrupts.  Absolute Power corrupts absolutely."  The developer has absolute power right now and if the owners don't do something now to get the unseat the present board, then we as owners are going to lose, period.  Remember, the things you are all being told from those associated with Summer Bay management, the developer, or their appointees are not to be taken as total truths.  All of the parties involved have monetary interests and will and do say whatever to get what they want.  Just read in these posts all of the lies and horror stories that people went through only to have to deal with the consequences years later.  

In closing today remember this:  The developer and developer appointed board members are not your friends.  Your board is not in a position to look after your best interest.  Many of the board members were the same ones that made all of the bad decisions before, that put us in this position in the first place and have no problems at all with their decision making process however flawed.  The only one that can make a difference is you.


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## timeos2

paul@premierbr.net said:


> I'm going to correct you sir.  The developer appoints 3 of the 11 spots.  Most owners do not show up to vote in person but send back their proxies to allow for board business to take place.  The board takes those proxies and votes themselves back in.  For those board members who want to remain board members they had better go along with the developer or will be voted out.  With 25,000 owners, most think sending in proxies is the right thing to do.  but they are giving their proxies to the wrong people, the very people who stand to make millions off of making agreements with themselves.  I have had board members tell me they couldn't speak with me about certain things for fear they would be asked to resign their spots.  The only way to get control back from the board would be to have access to the 25,000 owners and tell them what is happening, but Summer Bay is reluctant to give anyone that information for fear of exactly what we're talking about.  If the owners take charge again the developer stands to lose millions. Period.
> 
> It would be nice to believe the owners had any control though.



Paul - Good to see you back. The thread lost it's punch without you! 

I'll answer on this one rather than your previous post as I think some of your questions were already addressed. 

If the owners are directly electing 8 of 11 Board members then the owners have control.  It is not uncommon in the timeshare world that a developer hangs on to some, minority control to protect their interests. It is almost universal that the majority of timeshare owners send in a proxy as most are largely interested in getting a week of vacation and not the inter workings  of the resort they own. They didn't buy to have to deal with operations. 

I speak not as an owner at SB but from over a decade of experience as a Board member and nearly 2 decades of timeshare ownership.  In particular I have been in an extremely hard fought battle between a developer, eventually in bankruptcy, and an owner controlled BOD that wanted change. It got to a level of Federal Bankruptcy Court where the Association Attorneys and I had to appear to protect the 10,000+ owners of the resort. Like SB the resort was deteriorating under poor management yet the Developer swore they would never let go. 

You are correct that it was almost impossible to reach the general ownership as the Management/Developer controlled the owners list and mailings.  Yet the owner elected Board members - at great risk and potential cost to themselves as they personally as well as the Association ended up being sued over the battle - went to all the efforts needed to get the word out to the owners via newsletter, mailings, web sites and groups such as TUG.  After about a year and a half of court battles and confrontations the two sides agreed to settle for the good of the resort.  While I can't say the owners got everything they wanted - we did settle and both sides have been able to work together since.  The resort halted it's downward slide and regained a top ranking a few years later. It has been viewed as a major victory for the owners as they effectively wrested control of the premier property from the original developer. Something that the CEO of that time stated to my face would NEVER occur. It can be done. 

I also have to agree with you that if the current Board members are not being totally open they are making a big mistake IMO. One of the methods we used in our battle was to be totally transparent with information and status.  Some things owners don't want to hear but by getting them out and being honest you can keep them on your side. Trying to keep your Board seat by kowtowing to the wishes of a Developer is a big mistake. Take your stand as a Board member, make it clear and stand by it. If you lose the next election so what?   It is far better to stand by your convictions than keep a Board seat under false pretenses.  You should stand up for the owners - period. They are not doing their fiduciary duty if they fail to speak up for the owners in everything they do. I don't have that feeling about the sitting Board at SB. 

My impression as an outsider is that is how the current owner elected Board have acted. They have worked with the hand they were dealt and did the best they could.  Admittedly I'm not attending the meetings to see things first hand nor am I privy to any/all correspondence so I could have the wrong impression. For the majority of the owners - including you - I hope I'm correct. 

My work here as a moderator gives me no more clout than any other posting member or guest.  I just see some extra buttons on my view and could, subject to disciplinary action by the other moderators/owner, change something posted or delete it.  But that would only happen if the post broke the rules not to advance a point of view. 

I applaud your activism and, if you can garner enough owner support, know you have every right to have a different plan for your resort going forward. I just don't see the existing plan as a bad one nor do I see a plot to gain riches from the current Board at the expense of the owners. I could be wrong. I do see a big downside if the current plan is killed and not enough owners go along with an alternative, of which there are none on the table now. The best chance of success lies with the present option I think and the risks of defeat are too great.


----------



## timeos2

paul@premierbr.net said:


> Mr. Chase, as you can see on the previous post I have to start calling you out.  What do you do for a living?  What makes you the expert on all of the posts you have made in favor of the deal?  Do you own Summer Bay time?  Have you attended any of the meetings? Where are you getting your information to make the statements and claims you make?  Are you in the pockets of the developer?  Are you in the real estate, mortgage, development, timeshare business?  Please give us your credentials that make it all right for you to not be an unbiased moderator but an advocate for the deal.  You even added a tag line by your name about people asking for more.  What you don't have in your tag line are people asking for what is rightfully theirs.  You talk about people not attacking others but then mention how you have to laugh at them for certain things they may bring up.  Some may take that as an attack.  I also don't think you referring to our resort as downtrodden is very professional or unbiased either.  What am I saying?  In reviewing all of your posts it's not hard to see where you stand.  What do we have to do to get an unbiased moderator?
> 
> I am asking you for all of this for everyone concerned.  Your turn sir.  Enough is enough.
> 
> Paul Evans



Paul - OK, there is enough here to require a second response. 

My living is as an owner of a Computer business. That after 30 years of Government service first as a Supervising Accountant and then Network Supervisor.  I had budgets in the high 9 figures in a governement with over 4500 employees.  I took an early retirement to run my own business in 2002.

As my other post stated I lived through a nightmare of developer control and bankruptcy as a Board member so I have years of hands on experience with timeshares and their owners/managements.  Ask the developer we "moved out" in 2001 if I'm in anyones pocket.  I have seen first hand that no matter how "right" an owner is the system isn't always fair. Everyone has to compromise at some stage to simply make things move forward.  Courts don't always see the "right" side as your view may. The other side has their own version of whats "right and fair".  

I do have to laugh, in the ironic sense, that some get so locked into their view that they simply can't see that the other side has valid points as well. Thats where my "ask for too much" comes from.  There are a couple other resorts where well meaning Boards/owners have taken a perfectly legitimate stance with a Developer but, again IMO, gone too far in trying to get only their way with no willingness to give a little so both sides can move ahead. More importantly the resort can then move ahead and not continue to fall into disrepair and disrepute.  Most owners want a nice vacation at a reasonable cost not a holy war or a profit. 

I don't believe I'd have too many people - even owners - disagree that SBLV, as it exists today, is not a resort in good shape. The area is not great, the buildings need work, the layout is not the best. It is a resort that needs help. The current Board/management have done what they can to improve it but it really needs a major overhaul.  Not uncommon for a 20+ year old property but where would the money come from to revive it?  The plan you disagree with is one way. I don't mean any disrespect but simply state what I see as the current conditions there.  

I'm always open to other thoughts and I certainly see where your plan could also have merit.  But the plan on the table is the only one that can actually be voted on by owners and then be acted on. Yours, unfortunately, makes many assumptions that simply may not work out or even be actual options. In my view owners would not be served assuming something better will be offered if they don't take the current official plan.


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## spatenfloot

paul@premierbr.net said:


> What do you mean spatenfoot?  I'm an owner in Summer Bay and if by having a vested interest you mean that of an owner, then you're correct.  If you meant something else feel free to respond.  Are you an owner?



I mean that you should state that you recently bought multiple weeks hoping to get rich from a Harrah's buyout that will not happen.  Your interests are to get rich quick, not to own a timeshare for your own use and enjoyment like the majority of owners.  We have been through all this on the other thread and I don't feel like rehashing the same things again.


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## paul@premierbr.net

Spatenfoot, you couldn't be more wrong about my intentions.  I bought all of my units a few years ago for a few reasons.  One, the proximity to the strip and the monorail. My wife and I were married years ago in Vegas and have made it like a second home ever since, traveling to Vegas several times a year.  Two, the price for the units was unbelievable for what you got and only $425 per week in maintenance fees to stay for 7 days in a condo instead of a hotel, no brainer.  Finally, it was deeded, meaning you did have an ownership interest in the land as oppose to some timeshares or right to use which are secured by nothing but timeshare salesperson lies for the most part.

I haven't bought anything recently as you say, and all of my units were purchased before there was ever an announcement of any kind by Harrahs.

I have no intentions and never had of selling my units and if you would consider a few thousand dollars getting rich I feel for you.  I have made mine over the last 20 years and these timeshare units are for pleasure.

So again you speak of things for which you are clueless.  But free speech is protected in America no matter how stupid it may sound or wrong it may be.

Hi John (timeos2), Good to hear from you as well.  Thanks for your comments.  I was asked to respond to this board by some and it is good to chat with those that can debate or communicate in a healthy way.  Thanks

Paul


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## spatenfloot

paul@premierbr.net said:


> So again you speak of things for which you are clueless.  But free speech is protected in America no matter how stupid it may sound or wrong it may be.



In that case, you'll fit right in with your latest accusations and developer conspiracy theories. Welcome!


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## spatenfloot

paul@premierbr.net said:


> All of the parties involved have monetary interests and will and do say whatever to get what they want.



This statement of yours applies to you as well. Or did you forget that you claimed the following in the last thread?



paul@premierbr.net said:


> I personally sent a letter to all board members explaining I have a group willing to pay $40,000,000 for the additional 160 units made available in the deal with Harrah's.


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## paul@premierbr.net

Spatenfoot I agree.  It only took me about 10 minutes at the meeting to see what had just happened to the owners.  It took me about 3 days to find someone willing to pay fair market value for the property.  I have already outlined what the deal is worth to the owners and what they are actually going to receive.  It is pennies on the dollar.  No one is argueing the fact that the owners are not getting what they deserve they are simply stating the deal on the table is the only one the developer allowed to get there.  That is the problem, the developer and his band of timeshare salesman are getting over on the owners and have told the owners to like it or *&@#$  you.

Not a conspiracy theory, the truth.  I can deliver to the owner's the true value in real cash if that's what the owner's would like but at this point all I'm asking is that the owners stand up to the developer, to simply not sign the excess units over the the developer for pennies on the dollar, for them to profit on something for which they do not deserve.  What are you proposing?  Nothing or just take what you get?

Another saying, "Lead, follow or get out of the way."  With your energy I would hope you would be on the side of fairness.

Paul


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## JoeMO

*Developer Profit Margin*

I saw an interesting post on the TUG Marriott Forum.  In this post "Marriott timeshare profits and other statistics" were given.  The given breakdown was that "the typical timeshare project has a 10-year sales life. 43% of sales price represents marketing and sales costs, 40% is project hard costs and 17% is profit margin."  In other words the developers profit is only about 17% of the sales price.

Using this figure you can take the 160 units x $20,000 sales price = 160 mil.  Take the 160 mil x 17% and you get about 27 mil.  Half of the 27 mil is about what the developer is going to pay us.  In other words we stand to get something like 25% to 50% of the profits the developer will get. 

Getting up to half of the profits sounds like a great deal to me.  Especially when you consider that the developer is doing all the work and taking most of the risk.  

Thanks, 
Joe


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## LilaG

JoeMo--You say Using this figure you can take the 160 units x $20,000 sales price = 160 mil. Take the 160 mil x 17% and you get about 27 mil. Half of the 27 mil is about what the developer is going to pay us. In other words we stand to get something like 25% to 50% of the profits the developer will get. 

So 1/2 of 27 mil is 13.5 mil.  If the amount is 1/4, it's 6.75 mil.  I believe that there are about 25000 unit owners.  Dividing the profit by the number of unit owners gives each unit owner $540 if it's at the 50% profit, and $270 if it's at 25% of the profit.

If I am understanding you and your numbers correctly, this refusal to sign for the new resort is for an additional $270-$540 a unit owner.  That's not much of a gain compared to losing the deal the HOA has made.  It may cost us a lot more not to make the move than we will gain by fighting it.  

I just paid $1000 in special assessments to Celebrity Resorts in Brigantine Beach for needed renovations.  This was previously a Leisure Resorts managed property, like the Las Vegas property that is now Summer Bay, that was run down and needed to be repaired.  No one was allowed to check in or use his unit without paying the special assessment first.  This is in addition to the $680 maintenance fee for my one bedroom unit.

Can it happen at Summer Bay Las Vegas?  Yes, it can.


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## paul@premierbr.net

JoeMO said:


> I saw an interesting post on the TUG Marriott Forum.  In this post "Marriott timeshare profits and other statistics" were given.  The given breakdown was that "the typical timeshare project has a 10-year sales life. 43% of sales price represents marketing and sales costs, 40% is project hard costs and 17% is profit margin."  In other words the developers profit is only about 17% of the sales price.
> 
> Using this figure you can take the 160 units x $20,000 sales price = 160 mil.  Take the 160 mil x 17% and you get about 27 mil.  Half of the 27 mil is about what the developer is going to pay us.  In other words we stand to get something like 25% to 50% of the profits the developer will get.
> 
> Getting up to half of the profits sounds like a great deal to me.  Especially when you consider that the developer is doing all the work and taking most of the risk.  The developer in this case is nothing more than an agent and should only get a commission on the deal like an agent selling your house, that's it.  I will continue to repeat that the developer doesn't own the excess units, the association owners do.
> 
> Thanks,
> Joe



That's interesting information Joe.  Problem is the developer in this case has zero (0) hard costs.  I'm sorry, they are paying us $1400 per week after they sell the units.  It's not 40%, it's more like 7% if and when they sell the units.  No upfront hard cost at all.  They're not building or developing anything...Period.  We are giving them the units already built and renovated...Period.  Recaluculate the margins now and you can see the developer's profit to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 500% on investment.  I want to be the developer......Please.

So in our deal, using JoeMo's numbers this is what is happening. Sales Price $20,000-Cost per week$1400-43%sales/marketing of $8600= ARE YOU READY FOR THIS EVERYONE............$10,000 per week in profit to developer.  OOOOOUCH that hurt.  LilaG would you like 50% of that or $5000 per week sold.  I sure would because IT BELONGS TO THE OWNERS, not the developer.  Additionally the marketing costs of a start up is much higher than that of an existing resort.  The bulk of the marketing costs is paid to timeshare salespeople...the developer and his cronies.  So most of that 43% is also put back into the pockets of this in-name-only developer.

In the case of this developer he should get nothing more than that of a real estate agent selling your house.  He does not deserve the profits of a true developer.  He does not own the excess units, they belong to the owner's.  That is the biggest misconception on this board.

And JoeMo, your calculation is seriously flawed.  You said 160 units but didn't multiply by 52 weeks per unit.  That's 8320 weeks X 10,000 per week in profit or.....are you ready for this everyone...........$83,200,000 profit to the developer or $3328 for every week owned. And since I pointed out that the developer is getting paid out of the 43% sales/marketing, all of the $83,200,000 belongs to the owners.  I happen to own 9 units so I see myself getting ripped out of $30,000 in my face.  HURT ME SOME MORE!!!!!  I don't get work up for losing a dollar here or there.  But to get ripped off this badly gets me motivated to scream from the mountaintops.

Thank you JoeMo for your information.  Would anyone else like the fair deal of $83,200,000 owed to us.  That's why it only took a few days to find people willing to pay $40,000,000 up front for the excess units, because the developer was stealing them.


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## LilaG

Paul,
You asked "LilaG would you like 50% of that or $5000 per week sold. I sure would because IT BELONGS TO THE OWNERS, not the developer."  According to my calculations, 50% or $5000 per week sold when divided among the 25000 owners is $.20 (twenty cents) for each week sold. 

What belongs to me is the two weeks of timeshare vacation.  That's all.  If I can have those two weeks in a nicer and newer resort at no out of pocket cost to me then I feel like I am ahead.  Having a nice place to vacation is my concern, not what the developer gets out of all of this.


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## Mimi

janapur said:


> I heard about the move to Desert Club on TUG (thanks to a post by MIMI, and why aren't you chiming in by the way and also bought unseen via ebay. We are also thrilled with the models and location of Desert Club and have our fingers crossed for the 2BR lottery. I am extremely interested in the views of those that oppose this move and would love to hear from others as to what we actually have to gain by holding out.
> Jana



OMG...We are vacationing in Hawaii so I have not read our BB lately. Some things never change! I continue to have faith in our SB board and believe they are doing the best they can for owners. I am not interested in all the politics nor do I advocate holding out to limit developer's profits when we relocate to the Desert Club. I chose to remain positive and believe this will happen in 2008. I am concerned about the quality of my vacation, maintenance costs, and future stability of Summer Bay Las Vegas. I took a risk when I purchased 3 units on eBay this year and hope the majority of owners transfer their deeds to the new facility ASAP. The current option is to accept a gold crown timeshare, with no special assessment, or hold onto a deteriorated property deed hoping and praying to gain a better deal. DUH


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## paul@premierbr.net

LilaG said:


> Paul,
> You asked "LilaG would you like 50% of that or $5000 per week sold. I sure would because IT BELONGS TO THE OWNERS, not the developer."  According to my calculations, 50% or $5000 per week sold when divided among the 25000 owners is $.20 (twenty cents) for each week sold.
> 
> What belongs to me is the two weeks of timeshare vacation.  That's all.  If I can have those two weeks in a nicer and newer resort at no out of pocket cost to me then I feel like I am ahead.  Having a nice place to vacation is my concern, not what the developer gets out of all of this.



Did you actually read and understand the entire post?  $83,200,000 undeserved profits to the developer.  $3328 for each week owned not $.20. Are you actually that confused about the math or are you just trying to confuse everyone else?  Apparently you are confused in what belongs to you.  What was offered by Harrah's and belongs to you is your two weeks plus your fair share as an owner of 160 new units.  It's in the agreement, check for yourself.  Contact your board.  Would you like the email I received from Victor McElroy, before he realized I couldn't be swayed, stating clearly just that, "the excess units belong to the association".

I also believe everyone is confused about what I believe the owner's deserve.  I also want the new units offered by Harrah's room for room.  But why does that mean we owners don't get the additional value for the 160 additional rooms Harrah's is also giving to us.  Why do some of you owners feel the developer deserves to cut a deal with himself to take from the owners $83,200,000 in value.  I'll continue repeating to the owner's this undisputed truth, the additional units belong to the owners, not the developer.  Why are we giving them away for pennies on the dollar.

Mimi, PLEASE tell me where your unbridled faith in the present board comes from.  I will make sure everyone continues to know that it is because of your present board and their pathetic actions in the past that drove this resort into bankruptcy.  Why in the world would you put such blind faith in people who have a track record of failure.  Several years from now we'll be looking back saying, "Damn, they got me again!"  Screw me once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me!!  I don't take getting screwed lightly.


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## shadroch

Harrahs has given DC residents 30 days notice.


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## LilaG

Paul,
You say "What was offered by Harrah's and belongs to you is your two weeks plus your fair share as an owner of 160 new units. It's in the agreement, check for yourself."  I don't have this agreement.  My agreement says that my two units will be exchanged for two units at the Desert Club at no expense to me.  Please post the link to where this contract can be found. An email from Victor McElroy to you is not a binding agreement anymore than what sales people tell us.
This is the link to the only agreement I am aware of  http://deedexchange.summerbayresort.com/Acknowledgement.pdf
My understanding from my owners meeting with the salespeople when I signed over my deed was that the new resort would be bigger.  The additional 160 units, when sold, would bring more revenue to the HOA to defray the costs of refurbishing.  With the additional owners paying their maintenance fees, the HOA may be able to keep the annual fees low.  That's what I understand my fair share to be; increased revenue and lower maintenance fees for a longer time.


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## roadtriper

Paul, as I understand it.  you purchased your first SB unit early 2005. which means there have been 3 HOA Board elections since you became an owner.
each year 4 of the 8 elected members of the Board come up for election. (2 year terms)  that means each of the elected board members has come up for election at least once and 4 of them twice since you became an owner.

You are very quick to throw the HOA Board under the bus.  did you vote in the last 3 elections? did you have better candidates?      I have voted in the last 2 and I don't remember seeing your name?    I don't remember anyone in the past two elections running on the platform of "Throw the bums out" ???
I've certianly seen discusions of other resorts where the owners were about to lynch the HOA Board!
Can we expect to see your name on the ballot for 08' ?  You definatly have the passion  I would look for in a Board member, I may not agree with your positions...  RT


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## dougp26364

LilaG said:


> Paul,
> You say "What was offered by Harrah's and belongs to you is your two weeks plus your fair share as an owner of 160 new units. It's in the agreement, check for yourself."  I don't have this agreement.  My agreement says that my two units will be exchanged for two units at the Desert Club at no expense to me.  Please post the link to where this contract can be found. An email from Victor McElroy to you is not a binding agreement anymore than what sales people tell us.
> This is the link to the only agreement I am aware of  http://deedexchange.summerbayresort.com/Acknowledgement.pdf
> My understanding from my owners meeting with the salespeople when I signed over my deed was that the new resort would be bigger.  The additional 160 units, when sold, would bring more revenue to the HOA to defray the costs of refurbishing.  With the additional owners paying their maintenance fees, the HOA may be able to keep the annual fees low.  That's what I understand my fair share to be; increased revenue and lower maintenance fees for a longer time.



I might not agree with Paul's stance but I also see some "salemans speak" in your post. 

More units won't equal lower MF's. Each unit is still going to require the same amount of maintenance so additional units may bring in more money but, they're going to use up that money. More owners also means heavier usage of the common area's. Again the cost is divided among owners but more owners = more usage = more money necessary for upkeep. 

I have to disagree when a salesman says more owners = lower MF's just because there are more owners. If that were true then the larger resorts would have lower MF's than the smaller resorts. In my own personal experience with timeshares that I own I have not found that to be necessarily true. In fact, the smallest resort I own (fewest number of units) has the smallest MF. 

Of course there are many other factors to take into consideration such as resort amenities but, I still can not see that more owners =  lower fee's. If that were true, Orange Lake Country Club in Orlando surely must be paying the owners to own there rather than charging them any MF at all. 

As for Paul, he sure has spent a lot of time with numbers feeling as if he is somehow getting beat out of some pocket change. His base of premise for all his thoughts, IMO, is based on his misguided belief that he somehow owns more than just just time but also owns the land associated with the timeshare. I do not believe this is an accurate description of timeshare ownership. All of his figures may be correct but if that one premise about his ownership is incorrect, and I believe it is, then none of his figures really come to a hill of beans anyway. 

I think from everything I've read, fact and fiction, that if the deal doesn't go through the other side of that sword is going to cut mighty deep. This appears to be a good case of the carrott and the stick with the stick being more of a club. If the deal doesn't go through and there are issues afterward, such as the HOA/BOD abondoning the project, I wonder if someone such as Paul could end up with a nasty case of owners wanting reimbursement for their losses from somone? If the HOA/BOD decides that it will take a big SA to refurbish the old tired units how many will he keep and how many will he he sell of without a word, disappearing from these forums forever while the rest of the owners struggle with maintaining and refurbishing a worn, tired old resort?

I know when Polo Towers announced their SA that sales on E-bay shot up and resale price values went through the floor. Not that PT's is the greatest timeshare in Vegas but it was still a 5 star resort when all this started and it is a few steps off the strip behind the Hawaiian Marketplace. Yet, 1 SA of a little over $1,000 for each two bedroom unit had rats bailing out of the ship at what looked like a record pace to me. 

So, I suppose the question is what are the alternatives for owners at SBLV. If the plan is defeated what does anyone see becoming of the resort? The HOA/BOD seems to have indicated they may/will abondon the property. If that happens then what becomes of the owners?


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## roadtriper

dougp26364 said:


> I might not agree with Paul's stance but I also see some "salemans speak" in your post.
> 
> More units won't equal lower MF's. Each unit is still going to require the same amount of maintenance so additional units may bring in more money but, they're going to use up that money. More owners also means heavier usage of the common area's. Again the cost is divided among owners but more owners = more usage = more money necessary for upkeep.
> 
> I have to disagree when a salesman says more owners = lower MF's just because there are more owners. If that were true then the larger resorts would have lower MF's than the smaller resorts. In my own personal experience with timeshares that I own I have not found that to be necessarily true. In fact, the smallest resort I own (fewest number of units) has the smallest MF.
> 
> Of course there are many other factors to take into consideration such as resort amenities but, I still can not see that more owners =  lower fee's. If that were true, Orange Lake Country Club in Orlando surely must be paying the owners to own there rather than charging them any MF at all.
> 
> As for Paul, he sure has spent a lot of time with numbers feeling as if he is somehow getting beat out of some pocket change. His base of premise for all his thoughts, IMO, is based on his misguided belief that he somehow owns more than just just time but also owns the land associated with the timeshare. I do not believe this is an accurate description of timeshare ownership. All of his figures may be correct but if that one premise about his ownership is incorrect, and I believe it is, then none of his figures really come to a hill of beans anyway.
> 
> I think from everything I've read, fact and fiction, that if the deal doesn't go through the other side of that sword is going to cut mighty deep. This appears to be a good case of the carrott and the stick with the stick being more of a club. If the deal doesn't go through and there are issues afterward, such as the HOA/BOD abondoning the project, I wonder if someone such as Paul could end up with a nasty case of owners wanting reimbursement for their losses from somone? If the HOA/BOD decides that it will take a big SA to refurbish the old tired units how many will he keep and how many will he he sell of without a word, disappearing from these forums forever while the rest of the owners struggle with maintaining and refurbishing a worn, tired old resort?
> 
> I know when Polo Towers announced their SA that sales on E-bay shot up and resale price values went through the floor. Not that PT's is the greatest timeshare in Vegas but it was still a 5 star resort when all this started and it is a few steps off the strip behind the Hawaiian Marketplace. Yet, 1 SA of a little over $1,000 for each two bedroom unit had rats bailing out of the ship at what looked like a record pace to me.
> 
> So, I suppose the question is what are the alternatives for owners at SBLV. If the plan is defeated what does anyone see becoming of the resort? The HOA/BOD seems to have indicated they may/will abondon the property. If that happens then what becomes of the owners?



Doug, all very good points/observations.   I do believe the part about Abandoning the current Timeshare property is predicated on the rest of the deal going through.  it will be the last stage of the process.   It's all a moot point, because we'll all be enjoying our new resort in a year or so:whoopie:    RT


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## JoeMO

Paul, 

My total figure of 160 mil is correct.  I did leave out the detail of 52 weeks in my example, but the total is correct.  I took the example from one of your early post on a different thread.  

How do you know that the developer has no hard costs?  Doesn't he have to remodel the units that he sells? 

Even with your example of 83 mil in profit we still get about 13% of the profits (83/11 = 13).  

The profit margin is 17% (we can't expect someone to do it for free) and the marketing cost are 43%, or a total of 60% if the developer has no other costs.  The remaining 40% is 64 mil, not 83 mil.  If we get 11 mil of the 64 mil we are getting about 17% of the profit.

Paul, don't misunderstand me.  I would rather have 40 mil than 11 mil but I need more than just some figures thrown out there.  How do you know for certain that the developer has no hard costs?  Who are these people that are willing to give us 40 mil for 160 mil worth of extra units?  What is your proof that we can separate the developers 160 units from the rest of the deal without jeopardizing the whole deal.  Have them submit their proposal in writing to the powers that be and show us the written response.  

I don't mean to imply that I don't trust you, just that I have to have some basis to trust you.  Figures can be wildly thrown out that may not be very realistic.  Assumptions can be stated as facts and appeals to emotion can be used without any way to know if they are true.  We elected the board and they have done a fabulous job in all areas (with the possible exception that you have brought up) in the past few years.  So the wise thing to do would be to trust them until we know different. 

I must conclude the following:  It is more likely that you have some of the facts wrong and that you don't know the whole story, then to believe that the board has some sinister and greedy hidden agenda. 

Thanks, 
Joe


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## spatenfloot

Yes the developer is going to make a profit. They are the ones who do the work and manage the place. Summer Bay has put millions of dollars into the resort already and will continue to do so. Do you think they do it out of charity?

Once again, Paul, you ignore the simple fact that you are entitled to nothing more than what is stated in your deed. You were never entitled to any profits from the sale of weeks to the other owners, past or future. That has always gone to the developers of any timeshare property.  The HOA may own the unsold units obtained from any transfer deal, but that does not include you personally or any individual owner. You own what you bought, nothing more. 

Personally, I think it is pretty funny to see you yelling about how you are getting screwed from the sale of units that we don't even have! The Desert Club does not belong to SBLV, it belongs to Harrah's.  If a transfer deal is not approved, it will not belong to SBLV. The facts are simple, even for an educated fellow like yourself. If you don't like it, don't transfer your deeds.


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## timeos2

Looks like everybody's  happy!

I assume they wouldn't be evicting the tenants if the move wasn't about to get underway.


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## spatenfloot

dougp26364 said:


> So, I suppose the question is what are the alternatives for owners at SBLV. If the plan is defeated what does anyone see becoming of the resort?



It is an old resort with ever increasing maintenance issues.  If the current transfer plan fails, it may be years if ever before any other alternative appears. Harrah's may decide that the owners are too greedy and build on another parcel of land. That has certainly happened before. Since Harrah's will most likely be under new management after their own buyout is complete, they may decide to change their plans entirely and sell off much of what they already own. Vegas is always changing and many announced projects simply never happen. 

So to answer your question, if the deal does not happen, the most likely result is we continue to own an aging property and face special assesments to keep it in it's current condition (which anyone will admit is not the best).


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## paul@premierbr.net

RT-Until this past year and since I purchased my units I did not see a need to stir anything up.  The resort had already gone through it's bankruptcy and the plans were in the work to upgrade and improve the units.  If you remember correctly everyone was ecstatic about the improvements of the resort.  No one was jumping up and down saying we have to move because this place is just awful.  Why then would we invest millions to make the rooms acceptable.  In fact RCI didn't have a problem with the resort to put us on their list.  The board and Summer Bay management did do a good job handling the renovations and stablizing our financials.

Then, even though Harrah's purchased the redevelopment rights some time ago, Harrah's came to us and said they wanted to excercise their rights and come to an agreement to redevelop the property now.  I will add it wasn't your board going out to Harrah's saying we want a deal, it was Harrah's.  And why now?  Because the value of the land had soared.  In fact Harrah's is in the middle of a buyout because of the value of all of their land holdings on and around the strip, which had gone through the roof.  The article links I gave you guys clearly pointed that out.  I must also add, for all those concerned, that Harrah's *does not *own our land, simply the rights to take part in a redevelopment of our property when and IF that happens.  And why would they not want to take part since they do actually own a lot of the land around us.

That brings us to the offer.  Harrah's makes an acceptable offer to the owners of swaping our 489 units for 658-unit Dessert Club plus 29 million dollars to improve the entire Dessert Club to RCI Gold Crown Standards.  That's when the greed of the developer peeked it's ugly head.  The developer saw an opportunity to steal for pennies on the dollar the additional units from the owners.  Why not?  The owners aren't organized enough to do anything about it.  These timeshare salesman make their living off of selling dreams.  Whatever we want to think about them they are skilled, trained sales killers.  They have fine tuned their pitch to the owners of this great swap of unit for unit.  They certainly aren't advertising to the owners the $1400 they are paying for the units if and when they sell them.  They don't want you to see what your losing, they want you to see what your gaining.  It's a clever pitch.  Notice we didn't get to know anything about the deal until they already signed the papers and had the opportunity to fine tune their pitch. 

Then in January my wife and I show up at the resort on vacation and read about this wonderful thing that was put together that needed owner approval.  They want us to make an appointment so they can explain the proposal and of course we were interested in finding out.  We show up to hear about things when we are placed with an inexperienced timeshare saleskid with this cheezy pitch.  I stopped him immediatly knowing their was going to be a real issue, because the two most aggravating people you ever have to deal with in life are car salemen or timeshare salesman, and I certainly was not in the mood to listen to this salesman.  I thought an employee was going to go over proposal not a saleman.  The red flag went up immediately.  I asked to have the documents they wanted to show me to review on my own.  My request was refused.  His manager refused to allow my wife and I to review the documents on our own also.  We were given lie after lie after lie by these sleezeballs on why we couldn't review them on our own or take them to our attorney for review.  They tried to intimidate us so badly we cut our vacation short.  Over the next several months I requested the documents to be sent to me for review to no avail.  So we show up at the owner's meeting and it took everything I had, including the threat of a scene at the meeting to finally get the documents I requested the night before the meeting.  It was absolutely pathetic.  I have all of the emails I sent to Victor McElroy, resort manager, as well as your board members documenting in detail everything I'm writing here.

That brings us to the meeting.  While sitting in that meeting I quickly found out what the developer was trying to pull and how he was going to do it. It was amazing the gall of this guy.  So the election takes place, I do not vote for any of the present board members but they are all re-elected.  Why, I wonder?  It's easy.  Of the 25,000 owners very few actually take the time to find out what's going on.  A huge number send in proxies because they're told in the letter to do so, thinking that's the right thing to do to handle resort business.  However, the developer and your present board uses those proxies to vote the incumbants back in.  Why not?  They do whatever the developer says.  I was even told by one board member he feared talking to me because if the developer found out he could be asked to resign.  

We have no open communication with the board.  They have not sent out one suggestion or comment card to the owners.  We have no website like this for the owners to handle resort business.  They have no email list for instant mailings.  Think of the money savings in that alone in postage and supply costs.  And why?  Because owners would be more educated and hold the developer and board responsible for their actions.  They would rather ask for forgiveness than permission as the saying goes.  You call them with questions about this deal and get different answers depending on who you talk to.  I have talked to enough owners to know the timeshare saleman hired to sell this deal to the owners do and say whatever to get the signature.  And you can complain till your blue in the face but unless you are absolutely sold on the deal they could care less.  The only fear they have is enough people just say no.  Then and only then will they listen.  To hear them tell it everyone is so excited, not.  I spoke with employees at Summer Bay who weren't part of the sales pitch who told me just the opposite, that a lot of people are extremely unhappy with what's going on.

So RT, finally, to answer your question, do I feel we need changes on the board, the answer is yes.  We need people who are going to place the owners above the developer.  We need people who will have open lines of communication with the owners.  We need people who will bring our resort and resort business into the 21st century.  I'm not saying our board members are bad people, but from their actions, or inactions, I do feel it's time for some to move on and I my votes will go to people who promise to make the above commitments.

Paul


----------



## janapur

paul@premierbr.net said:


> RT-Until this past year and since I purchased my units I did not see a need to stir anything up.  The resort had already gone through it's bankruptcy and the plans were in the work to upgrade and improve the units.  If you remember correctly everyone was ecstatic about the improvements of the resort.  No one was jumping up and down saying we have to move because this place is just awful.  Why then would we invest millions to make the rooms acceptable.  In fact RCI didn't have a problem with the resort to put us on their list.  The board and Summer Bay management did do a good job handling the renovations and stablizing our financials.
> 
> 
> Paul



Very well explained , Paul. I think you will be respected with greater emapathy now.

However, I must disagree with regard to the quality of Summer Bay and the status quo as you describe it. Anyone trading into Vegas via RCI or looking to purchase in Vegas on the resale market was aware of SB's poor status and negative reviews. Perhaps these renovations which made the "rooms acceptable" had not been recognized by the general public yet. An RCI rep even discouraged me when we exchanged into Vegas two years ago and we ended up at Jockey Club.

Your enthusiasm is fantastic and you bring insightful points to this discussion. I have openly asked many times "what are our other options?" For those of us not comfortable with a risk of potentially sabotaging the deal with Harrahs despite losing the huge portion of the pie to the developers, what great alternative am I missing that is worth holding out?

Jana


----------



## roadtriper

paul@premierbr.net said:


> RT-Until this past year and since I purchased my units I did not see a need to stir anything up.  The resort had already gone through it's bankruptcy and the plans were in the work to upgrade and improve the units.  If you remember correctly everyone was ecstatic about the improvements of the resort.  No one was jumping up and down saying we have to move because this place is just awful.  Why then would we invest millions to make the rooms acceptable.  In fact RCI didn't have a problem with the resort to put us on their list.  The board and Summer Bay management did do a good job handling the renovations and stablizing our financials.
> 
> Then, even though Harrah's purchased the redevelopment rights some time ago, Harrah's came to us and said they wanted to excercise their rights and come to an agreement to redevelop the property now.  I will add it wasn't your board going out to Harrah's saying we want a deal, it was Harrah's.  And why now?  Because the value of the land had soared.  In fact Harrah's is in the middle of a buyout because of the value of all of their land holdings on and around the strip, which had gone through the roof.  The article links I gave you guys clearly pointed that out.  I must also add, for all those concerned, that Harrah's *does not *own our land, simply the rights to take part in a redevelopment of our property when and IF that happens.  And why would they not want to take part since they do actually own a lot of the land around us.
> 
> That brings us to the offer.  Harrah's makes an acceptable offer to the owners of swaping our 489 units for 658-unit Dessert Club plus 29 million dollars to improve the entire Dessert Club to RCI Gold Crown Standards.  That's when the greed of the developer peeked it's ugly head.  The developer saw an opportunity to steal for pennies on the dollar the additional units from the owners.  Why not?  The owners aren't organized enough to do anything about it.  These timeshare salesman make their living off of selling dreams.  Whatever we want to think about them they are skilled, trained sales killers.  They have fine tuned their pitch to the owners of this great swap of unit for unit.  They certainly aren't advertising to the owners the $1400 they are paying for the units if and when they sell them.  They don't want you to see what your losing, they want you to see what your gaining.  It's a clever pitch.  Notice we didn't get to know anything about the deal until they already signed the papers and had the opportunity to fine tune their pitch.
> 
> Then in January my wife and I show up at the resort on vacation and read about this wonderful thing that was put together that needed owner approval.  They want us to make an appointment so they can explain the proposal and of course we were interested in finding out.  We show up to hear about things when we are placed with an inexperienced timeshare saleskid with this cheezy pitch.  I stopped him immediatly knowing their was going to be a real issue, because the two most aggravating people you ever have to deal with in life are car salemen or timeshare salesman, and I certainly was not in the mood to listen to this salesman.  I thought an employee was going to go over proposal not a saleman.  The red flag went up immediately.  I asked to have the documents they wanted to show me to review on my own.  My request was refused.  His manager refused to allow my wife and I to review the documents on our own also.  We were given lie after lie after lie by these sleezeballs on why we couldn't review them on our own or take them to our attorney for review.  They tried to intimidate us so badly we cut our vacation short.  Over the next several months I requested the documents to be sent to me for review to no avail.  So we show up at the owner's meeting and it took everything I had, including the threat of a scene at the meeting to finally get the documents I requested the night before the meeting.  It was absolutely pathetic.  I have all of the emails I sent to Victor McElroy, resort manager, as well as your board members documenting in detail everything I'm writing here.
> 
> That brings us to the meeting.  While sitting in that meeting I quickly found out what the developer was trying to pull and how he was going to do it. It was amazing the gall of this guy.  So the election takes place, I do not vote for any of the present board members but they are all re-elected.  Why, I wonder?  It's easy.  Of the 25,000 owners very few actually take the time to find out what's going on.  A huge number send in proxies because they're told in the letter to do so, thinking that's the right thing to do to handle resort business.  However, the developer and your present board uses those proxies to vote the incumbants back in.  Why not?  They do whatever the developer says.  I was even told by one board member he feared talking to me because if the developer found out he could be asked to resign.
> 
> We have no open communication with the board.  They have not sent out one suggestion or comment card to the owners.  We have no website like this for the owners to handle resort business.  They have no email list for instant mailings.  Think of the money savings in that alone in postage and supply costs.  And why?  Because owners would be more educated and hold the developer and board responsible for their actions.  They would rather ask for forgiveness than permission as the saying goes.  You call them with questions about this deal and get different answers depending on who you talk to.  I have talked to enough owners to know the timeshare saleman hired to sell this deal to the owners do and say whatever to get the signature.  And you can complain till your blue in the face but unless you are absolutely sold on the deal they could care less.  The only fear they have is enough people just say no.  Then and only then will they listen.  To hear them tell it everyone is so excited, not.  I spoke with employees at Summer Bay who weren't part of the sales pitch who told me just the opposite, that a lot of people are extremely unhappy with what's going on.
> 
> So RT, finally, to answer your question, do I feel we need changes on the board, the answer is yes.  We need people who are going to place the owners above the developer.  We need people who will have open lines of communication with the owners.  We need people who will bring our resort and resort business into the 21st century.  I'm not saying our board members are bad people, but from their actions, or inactions, I do feel it's time for some to move on and I my votes will go to people who promise to make the above commitments.
> 
> Paul



BULL!    You have proven yourself to be a somewhat savy Businessman. there is now way in h*ll you were so impressed with the current resort and it's condition that you purchased 9-10 intervals in one year so you could spend a couple of months there every year with your wife. (have you spent 18 weeks at summer bay since you purchased your nine units in 05?) if that was the case you would be absolutly wetting yourself over the new deal.  YOU got the bug just like the rest of us!  not knowing the future of the resort but knowing the redevelopment rights were out there and maybe we would get "Luxury towers" or something.  I bought my first unit sight unseen, because I attend a tradeshow every fall and it was a cheaper weeks lodging than any of the surrounding hotels.  I bought my second one because it was a steal and maybe we could use a second unit during the tradeshow. after that it was just the "BUG"  Maybe this will happen? maybe that will happen?    you've already admitted you have 30,000 reasons to take the position you have.    You like to quote "Old Sayings"  well there is an old saying "Figures can Lie, and Liars can Figure"   numbers can be worked from either end to prove a point one way or another. WE are all quoting figures that make OUR case and omitting figures that may contradict. i.e you said Harrah's offered us a deal of 658 units for our 489. which is not correct! Harrah's offered us 489 units for 489 units and were going to retain the excess inventory/real estate. the HOA Board negotiated for the 658 unit deal. (the same Board you feel is incapable of making a decent deal for us) You have convinced yourself that you are being cheated out of 30K, you have invested a fraction of that amount in purchasing 9 intervals resale.   Final Point... if there was so much money to be made by Summer bay on Resales, why werent they buying up all those $1  $100  $420 deals on Ebay?  why didn't they have a shill buying up all that inventory???  why didn't Harrah's ????   why didn't Paul???    RT


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## roadtriper

timeos2 said:


> Looks like everybody's  happy!
> 
> I assume they wouldn't be evicting the tenants if the move wasn't about to get underway.



I'm happy!    

John, I hope McGarrett didn't shoot your dog???    RT


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## LilaG

Doug--You're right about the "salesman speak."  I own at other resorts and the maintenance fees are not dependent on the size of the resort.  But my larger resorts do have better amenities because there's more money in the pot.  

Roadtripper--You are absolutely right when you say "*Harrahs offered us 489 units for 489 units and were going to retain the excess inventory/real estate. the HOA Board negotiated for the 658 unit deal."*

Spatenfoot--You were right on when you said, *"Once again, Paul, you ignore the simple fact that you are entitled to nothing more than what is stated in your deed. You were never entitled to any profits from the sale of weeks to the other owners, past or future. That has always gone to the developers of any timeshare property. The HOA may own the unsold units obtained from any transfer deal, but that does not include you personally or any individual owner. You own what you bought, nothing more."*

Paul--The deal is going through whether you sign your deeds over or not.   And as of today when I called IMI, 15000 had signed.  That's 60%.  The contract I signed said *"The acceptable number required will be solely at the discretion of the Las Vegas Resort Owner’s Association (your HOA), Summer Bay Resorts and Harrah’s Entertainment, Inc. It will require at least a majority, but less than 100%." * Sixty percent is a majority.  Desert Club residents have been given eviction notices.  


To all who have signed their deeds, thank you for helping us get a nicer resort.


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## esk444

Paul, I'm not a Summer Bay owner, so feel free to ignore my post.  

Is Summer Bay fleecing the HOA?  I'm not so sure.  The Summer Bay/HOA deal for the 169 units might look bad on its face, but I do see some good business reasons behind it.  

The HOA negotiated the Harrah's/Desert Club deal and I am sure they thought it was the best deal they could negotiate and believe it is in the best interests of the owners to approve of it.  But to get that the Desert Club deal it looks like the HOA needs 51% to 80% transfers to make it happen, with any amount below 80% solely at the discretion of Harrah's.  That conversion rate is pretty difficult and the HOA (really just a handful of individuals) don't really have the mechanism to convince up to 80% of the owners to convert, other than sending letters out to owners with their recommendation.  Based on some posters here, some people seemed to think their units are land and worth a lot more, so it was probably going to be a tough sell.  To get that 80% mark, the HOA really needed to do a PR offensive (meetings, models, literature, etc.), which potentially could have been very expensive and time consuming.  What incentive does Summer Bay have to convince owners to convert?  Probably none.

Those 169 extra units were probably a bargaining chip the HOA used to get Summer Bay on board and promote to the deal.  Was it too expensive?  Maybe.  But alternatively, what was the HOA supposed to do?  No non-developer run HOA wants to deal with 169 units (more than 8,000 shares).  It is extremely difficult to sell or even rent that amount of units.  The HOA doesn't have the capability to do so, but Summer Bay does.  Remember, it's not like the independent board members are real estate professionals (or are even compensated to act like mini-developers).  While they could always hire third parties (or go through alternative developers like you) to sell or rent the units, it adds a level of complexity and uncertainty into an already complex deal.  Summer Bay offered them an easy solution and they took it.  In addition, since Summer Bay will be in sales, they have an incentive to run the resort well since they will basically be part owners at least for awhile.

So what if they went through you?  Well who exactly are you, who are your investors?  How firm is your financing?  Is your group going to use a lot of leverage, potentially putting the venture with default risk?  Do you have enough financing to pay the MF if sales are slow?  Who are your sales staff to sell these timeshare units?  How are you going to interact with Summer Bay (it's a lot easier to sell units if you are also the management company)?  Will you clash with them over access to the resort?  Will your involvement deteriorate the HOA's relationship with Summer Bay?  Will the HOA need to hire a different management company if Summer Bay is cut out of the deal?  What are your sales practices, will you expose the HOA to sales fraud liability?  How will you get your leads?  What is your experience selling timeshare units?  How soon do you anticipate selling the units?  Will you rent the units?  Is there a minimum rental charge to protect the value of the 489 other owner's units?  Actually, I'm not sure if you even proposed that these would remain timeshare units (though I could be wrong), which bring a whole host of new questions if Desert Club becomes a mixed-use resort.

These are questions just off the top of my head.  So your deal might be better financially (if things go right), but the added risk is certainly a factor that should be considered by the HOA.  Remember, you don't have a prior working relationship with the management company or the HOA, so no matter what assurances you give it will add uncertainty.  If the HOA considered Summer Bay deal because it was safe and easier, those are valid reasons to accept that deal.  The fiduciary duties of a HOA are not the same of a professional real estate company, they just have to make sure the deal is fair and rational.  While maybe the HOA could have put the screws to Summer Bay to get more than $1,400 per unit, I can't, based what is written here, necessarily say that the deal isn't fair.

My $ .02.  FYI, I looked into Summer Bay last year, but didn't pull the trigger.


----------



## Mimi

paul@premierbr.net said:


> Mimi, PLEASE tell me where your unbridled faith in the present board comes from.  I will make sure everyone continues to know that it is because of your present board and their pathetic actions in the past that drove this resort into bankruptcy. Why in the world would you put such blind faith in people who have a track record of failure.  Several years from now we'll be looking back saying, "Damn, they got me again!"  Screw me once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me!!  I don't take getting screwed lightly.



Paul, FYI, we have been trading into Summer Bay for years--when it was Ramada Vacation Suites and and Leisure Resorts. The timeshare deteriorated big time before Summer Bay management took over. We noticed improvements throughout the property with Summer Bay management and I appreciated input from Fern Modina on TUG when she was on the Board. Based on my impressions of the Summer Bay BOD, and in anticipation of the Harrah's acquisition, I bought three 2br units in 2006. I am basing my trust in our current board, not previous boards, since I believe they have done a great job facilitating our move to Desert Club. I am thrilled to have a larger unit with new amenities that I didn't have to pay for. I also think it is awesome that some owners will automatically be upgraded from studios to 1brs and some will be upgraded from 1brs. to 2brs. This is unheard of in timesharing. You can hold on to your deed, but the majority of owners are happy to have more than they bargained for. In my view it's a WIN-WIN, except for the owners who fail to transfer their deeds and lose.


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## anne1125

Looks like good news for all Summer Bay Las Vegas owners.  I'm thrilled with the move and ask for nothing more than moving to a gold crown resort and the possibility of upgrading to a 2 bedroom.

Thanks to our HOA for all their hard work.  I for one think they did a great job.

Anne


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## dougp26364

timeos2 said:


> Looks like everybody's  happy!
> 
> I assume they wouldn't be evicting the tenants if the move wasn't about to get underway.



Simply amazing! People sign a 6 month lease and have to initial an agreement that their lease can be terminated with a 30 day notice for no reason what-so-ever and they're surprised that they got an eviction notice. They knew the property was owned by HET, it's been pretty public that HET was planing on some major redevelopement, they initial that portion of the lease and now they're mad at HET? Sounds as if they should be ticked at themselves for not paying attention. 

And then there's the management saying they had no idea this was going to happen. Who was it that was having new tennents initial that one month cancelation notice? Sorry but the management of that complex is just a bunch of chicken you-know-what's and is hiding behind the "We didn't know" routine. They HAD to know if they were putting that clause in their rental agreements. 

I wonder if the hard feelings with the current tennents is going to cause a problem for the SBLV owners. Judging from this article, it sounds as if the current tennents have no clue Desert Club is being turned into a timeshare project.

Sorry Paul, 

It looks to me like you gambled and it didn't pay off. You bought units in 2005 and from all your postings I'm pretty much convinced you bought on speculation of the move and making a profit. Anytime you speculate, if you don't cover all the angles you can end up losing. Especially if making a quick profit is what your hoping for and I'm pretty much convinced that was your plan. Speculating on a high end land deal. The problem is you didn't buy land but you ended up just buying time instead. My bet is you didn't fully understand timeshare when you got into this in 2005. You saw the big picture of land aquisition but the position you took was faulty from the begining.

The deal appears to be done. Soon you'll have to make a decision what to do with your units; transfer or don't transfer. If you choose don't transfer I hope you better understand the consequences of that action then I think you understood the consequences of HET makind a deal for that property. 

You can have brand new, gold crown/5 star units that are worth more (vacation wise) that what you currently own. You may even be able to resell them for a little more than you paid for them. In the end though, this isn't going to be the financia windfall I really believe was your motive. 

Someone else was correct when they posted that this in an uprecedented move for a timeshare community. SBLV has done something I'm not aware of has been done before. They've essentially built a new resort, upgraded all their owners to better units, upgraded to 5 star/Gold Crown, gained more units and will receive some profit from the sale of those units without having to spend one red cent, take no risk and provide a better vacation value for their owners. 

In my eyes, this HOA has done a GREAT job for their owners. It's only those that speculated on a large cash windfall when a deal was done that will be unhappy.


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## spatenfloot

dougp26364 said:


> And then there's the management saying they had no idea this was going to happen. Who was it that was having new tennents initial that one month cancelation notice? Sorry but the management of that complex is just a bunch of chicken you-know-what's and is hiding behind the "We didn't know" routine. They HAD to know if they were putting that clause in their rental agreements.


The property managers for the apartments knew very well what was going to happen, but chose to rent the apartments anyway.  If the tenants have complaints, they should be directed at the property management company.

The info about the timeshare deal has been available from several sources for over a year. Even apartmentfinder website had posts warning people about it. I am a bit surprised that the news reporters apparently did so little research on this week's stories. They first stated it was due to the sports arena, then to an unnamed Harrah's project. A simple google search would have given them all the info they needed.


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## dougp26364

spatenfloot said:


> The property managers for the apartments knew very well what was going to happen, but chose to rent the apartments anyway.  If the tenants have complaints, they should be directed at the property management company.
> 
> The info about the timeshare deal has been available from several sources for over a year. Even apartmentfinder website had posts warning people about it. I am a bit surprised that the news reporters apparently did so little research on this week's stories. They first stated it was due to the sports arena, then to an unnamed Harrah's project. A simple google search would have given them all the info they needed.



But HET has deeper pockets than the Desert Clubs management team. 

Just like a few owners at SBLV, there will always be a few trying to get into those deep HET pockets.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Ok

I asked this question before, but no one answered.  I don't know if people didn't know the answer or didn't see the question in all the other discussion going around.

What % of 1 BR owners will be upgraded to 2 BR?  I am sure that someone knows the answer to that.

If the tenants have been given their 30 day notice, it looks like the ball is rolling.  When might we find out who won the lottery and how are they going to communicate the results, individually or is there a list that will be posted?

Any ideas?

Sandy


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## Sandy

HI Sandy, 

There will be approximately 40% of the one bedroom owners who will get the 2 bedroom units if they have returned their deed documents before Sept 1. 

This is based on the fact that there are more two bedrooms available at the new location. Also, ALL studio units were automatically upgraded to the one bedroom units.  ALL one bedroom owners were automatically upgraded to the one bedroom DELUXE units. 
 The upgrade chart is here:  http://deedexchange.summerbayresort.com/IMI_1342_UC.html

You can also see the room layouts at the post above. 
The lottery will be conducted on Sept 28 with the results announced sometime in October. 

Hope that helps.


----------



## Sandy

Here are more specifics: 

The current resort has 25,428 intervals over 489 physical suites. The new Desert Club Las Vegas will have 33,956 intervals over 653 physical suites.

The difference in intervals between the old resort and the new resort is 8528.


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## LilaG

Sandy (or anyone else who may know the answer),
Is the upgrade to 2 bedrooms for one bedroom owners or for everyone who signed their deed and were upgraded to one bedrooms.  For example, I own a 1 bedroom in the Villas which will become a one bedroom deluxe.  I also own an Executive Studio in the Towers which will become a one bedroom.  Are these both eligible for the lottery drawing to a 2 bedroom, or just the original one bedroom?


----------



## Sandy

Hi, 

Your one bedroom in the Villas will automatically become a one bedroom deluxe.  But it might become a 2 bedroom in the lottery.  Thus the default for all one bedroom owners is the deluxe unit. 

The studio will become a one bedroom and is not eligible for the lottery because it was not a one bedroom to begin with. 

I think I have that right!


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## Sandy VDH

Sandy said:


> HI Sandy,
> 
> There will be approximately 40% of the one bedroom owners who will get the 2 bedroom units if they have returned their deed documents before Sept 1.



so if some 1 BR owners failed to return their docs by Sept 1st, the odds of upgrading will increase as less units have been turned in for the same number upgrade spots.

Since the number I saw was 60% return, there is a good chance that a portion of those not returning were 1 BR owners.

Get my drift.

Thanks for the stats.  That was what I was looking for.  Wish me luck.

the other Sandy


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## paul@premierbr.net

roadtriper said:


> BULL!    You have proven yourself to be a somewhat savy Businessman. there is now way in h*ll you were so impressed with the current resort and it's condition that you purchased 9-10 intervals in one year so you could spend a couple of months there every year with your wife. (have you spent 18 weeks at summer bay since you purchased your nine units in 05?) if that was the case you would be absolutly wetting yourself over the new deal.  YOU got the bug just like the rest of us!  not knowing the future of the resort but knowing the redevelopment rights were out there and maybe we would get "Luxury towers" or something.  I bought my first unit sight unseen, because I attend a tradeshow every fall and it was a cheaper weeks lodging than any of the surrounding hotels.  I bought my second one because it was a steal and maybe we could use a second unit during the tradeshow. after that it was just the "BUG"  Maybe this will happen? maybe that will happen?    you've already admitted you have 30,000 reasons to take the position you have.    You like to quote "Old Sayings"  well there is an old saying "Figures can Lie, and Liars can Figure"   numbers can be worked from either end to prove a point one way or another. WE are all quoting figures that make OUR case and omitting figures that may contradict. i.e you said Harrah's offered us a deal of 658 units for our 489. which is not correct! Harrah's offered us 489 units for 489 units and were going to retain the excess inventory/real estate. the HOA Board negotiated for the 658 unit deal. (the same Board you feel is incapable of making a decent deal for us) You have convinced yourself that you are being cheated out of 30K, you have invested a fraction of that amount in purchasing 9 intervals resale.   Final Point... if there was so much money to be made by Summer bay on Resales, why werent they buying up all those $1  $100  $420 deals on Ebay?  why didn't they have a shill buying up all that inventory???  why didn't Harrah's ????   why didn't Paul???    RT



Hi RT,  you are absolutely correct when you say I bought the units because I saw a great deal.  I felt it was a great deal and still do at the current prices.  $425 a year to stay an entire week off strip, unbelievable!  I come out good regardless of what happens.  I can offer my units to friends, family or associates, whoever.  I would have never purchased the units had it not been a great deal.  So how does my purchase of a good deal take away from my belief the developer is getting way more than he deserves, about $83,000,000 more?  It doesn't.  

You are also correct in that I thought eventually the resort would be re-developed.  That was a no-brainer given Vegas's growth and our fantastic location.  

Additionally, I am not saying moving to the Dessart Club is a bad deal at all if that's what we ultimately do.  I'm just pointing out the owners have not gotten a fair price for the additional units from the developer, Period!  You talk about the board negotiating for the extra units but don't point out the developer is the major benefactor of those units only giving us $1400 per week for something they will sell for $20,000 plus or so.  That's a grand total of $72,000 per unit that would have cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars to build and finance on their own.  Why not offer an entire unit to the owners for $72,000?  I bet you could sell them all quickly.

Now hear this,  in talking with another owner yesterday something extremly frightening came up.  Who is going to take posession of the 30% new units and get those voting rights until they are sold, the developer or the HOA.  Either way it turns our resort into a dictatorship.  As I pointed out in an earlier post the developer and board use the proxies they receive to continue to vote for themselves.  They will use the additional votes to continue to stack the board.  Talk about the owners losing complete control, there you have it.  Like I said, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Have any of you thought of the consequences of giving the entire voting power to the very people who stand to profit the most.  Are there any protections from this, any checks and balances?  All of you who signed over your deeds did you consider the fact you could be signing over all the power?  Is this not the case?  Someone please explain what safegaurds we have from this happening, blind faith in the current board?  You better like them because you may be stuck with them for life.

I'm interested in hearing comments about that possible scenario.  
Paul


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## spatenfloot

paul@premierbr.net said:


> Why not offer an entire unit to the owners for $72,000?


Because they are timeshares, not condos.



paul@premierbr.net said:


> Now hear this,  in talking with another owner yesterday something extremly frightening came up.  Who is going to take posession of the 30% new units and get those voting rights until they are sold, the developer or the HOA.  (edited ranting)  You better like them because you may be stuck with them for life.


That is how it is at every timeshare that is still in sales. Once they sell the units, they have less influence.  The current board has done a fine job on this deal. I'll be glad to reelect them as will many owners.


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## Sandy

Sandy Lovell said:


> so if some 1 BR owners failed to return their docs by Sept 1st, the odds of upgrading will increase as less units have been turned in for the same number upgrade spots.
> 
> Since the number I saw was 60% return, there is a good chance that a portion of those not returning were 1 BR owners.
> 
> Get my drift.
> 
> Thanks for the stats.  That was what I was looking for.  Wish me luck.
> 
> the other Sandy



HI, "Other Sandy" 

As I understand it, they already have more one bedroom deed returned than they have 2 bedrooms to offer in the lottery.  So, the odds might be somewhat increased for those who did send in the docs, but I don't believe that those who did not send in the docs have any chance, now, of getting the free upgrades. 

But, keep in mind, they will still get the one bedroom deluxes, which are much larger than the original units. 

Hope this helps.


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## dougp26364

paul@premierbr.net said:


> Now hear this,  in talking with another owner yesterday something extremly frightening came up.  Who is going to take posession of the 30% new units and get those voting rights until they are sold, the developer or the HOA.  Either way it turns our resort into a dictatorship.  As I pointed out in an earlier post the developer and board use the proxies they receive to continue to vote for themselves.  They will use the additional votes to continue to stack the board.  Talk about the owners losing complete control, there you have it.  Like I said, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Have any of you thought of the consequences of giving the entire voting power to the very people who stand to profit the most.  Are there any protections from this, any checks and balances?  All of you who signed over your deeds did you consider the fact you could be signing over all the power?  Is this not the case?  Someone please explain what safegaurds we have from this happening, blind faith in the current board?  You better like them because you may be stuck with them for life.
> 
> I'm interested in hearing comments about that possible scenario.
> Paul




The board has a higher percentage of owner elected members than developer appointed members. So the board is stacked in the HOA's favor.

As for the new units, I believe it's already been pointed out that the HOA owns those units until the developer has a firm sales contract on them. They will then pass to the new owner with the developer acting as the middle man (not the owner of the unit), much like a unit on E-bay does. It's not the person doing the selling that owns the unit, it's the HOA who then transfers the deed via the developer.

I really think your getting a little paranoid over this entire thing. If you purchased your units to use, you'll still have those units to use. You'll even have nicer, newer units to use in a very similar location and it's not going to cost you one red cent more than you paid for those units resale. 

The more you talk, the more I believe you're only in it for the quick buck. You just miscalculated how timeshare ownership really works. Something most of us have done when we first got into timeshare ownership. 

You have a choice. You can either keep your new units and enjoy them as you said was your original intention or sell them off for any profit you might be able to make on the resale market. Perhaps you can offer them wholesale to the developer and still come out on top. I'm sure they'd be the last units sold so you'd have a few more years to use them while MF's are still subsidized by the sell off of the additional units the resort gained. If you could do that it'd be a win-win-win situation for you. Usage as you profess, profit in the end and you'll get away from a HOA you don't seem to trust.


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## roadtriper

paul@premierbr.net said:


> Hi RT,  you are absolutely correct when you say I bought the units because I saw a great deal.  I felt it was a great deal and still do at the current prices.  $425 a year to stay an entire week off strip, unbelievable!  I come out good regardless of what happens.  I can offer my units to friends, family or associates, whoever.  I would have never purchased the units had it not been a great deal.  So how does my purchase of a good deal take away from my belief the developer is getting way more than he deserves, about $83,000,000 more?  It doesn't.
> 
> You are also correct in that I thought eventually the resort would be re-developed.  That was a no-brainer given Vegas's growth and our fantastic location.
> 
> Additionally, I am not saying moving to the Dessart Club is a bad deal at all if that's what we ultimately do.  I'm just pointing out the owners have not gotten a fair price for the additional units from the developer, Period!  You talk about the board negotiating for the extra units but don't point out the developer is the major benefactor of those units only giving us $1400 per week for something they will sell for $20,000 plus or so.  That's a grand total of $72,000 per unit that would have cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars to build and finance on their own.  Why not offer an entire unit to the owners for $72,000?  I bet you could sell them all quickly.
> 
> Now hear this,  in talking with another owner yesterday something extremly frightening came up.  Who is going to take posession of the 30% new units and get those voting rights until they are sold, the developer or the HOA.  Either way it turns our resort into a dictatorship.  As I pointed out in an earlier post the developer and board use the proxies they receive to continue to vote for themselves.  They will use the additional votes to continue to stack the board.  Talk about the owners losing complete control, there you have it.  Like I said, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Have any of you thought of the consequences of giving the entire voting power to the very people who stand to profit the most.  Are there any protections from this, any checks and balances?  All of you who signed over your deeds did you consider the fact you could be signing over all the power?  Is this not the case?  Someone please explain what safegaurds we have from this happening, blind faith in the current board?  You better like them because you may be stuck with them for life.
> 
> I'm interested in hearing comments about that possible scenario.
> Paul



Paul, Thank you for your candor in this post, I will pledge to do the same.  I have never denied and I believe I've stated publicaly that summer bay will make a ton of money. where we differ in opinion is I feel they have a serious investment in the deal and I get the feeling you believe they are owed nothing?  maybe there is a happy medium ???    as far as the proxy votes go... if there were not proxy votes, nothing would ever get done. as for the election of Board members, yes the proxys are voted by the board. but mail in and in person votes trump Proxy votes. so if owners mail in a ballot or vote in pesron it's irrelevant if they have a proxy on file.  the problem isn't the proxys, it's the Apathy of those who submit them.  We both agree there could be better communication  between owners and MGmt.  I look forward to the day when this is all behind us and we can all sit down for a cold beverage and look forward together,   RT


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## roadtriper

*It worked !*



dougp26364 said:


> But HET has deeper pockets than the Desert Clubs management team.
> 
> Just like a few owners at SBLV, there will always be a few trying to get into those deep HET pockets.



Seems the protesting and complaining got them something. 
http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=7033449

While I don't really feel the Apartment dwellers were owed anything. I do think from a Business Standpoint, Harrah's would have been better off doing this sort of thing as a pro-active move rather than a Reactive  one.  but then this 20/20 hindsight is great!


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## silverquarter2001@yahoo.com

krlorenz said:


> I have owned this property for 18 years.  When we bought this timeshare part of their marketing was "you will own land on the strip".  When Summer Bay took over we were somewhat relieved. We went to Vegas, met with a salesman and purchased another week.  My only concern was that a bankruptcy would force the sale of the resort.  The salesman reassured me that would never happen.  And here we are today, about to lose our "land on the strip".
> 
> We are not going to send our packet back.  Even if we lose our timeshare.  I hope to get back to the resort someday soon and tell them what I think of them.



I am with you on that, I am doing the same holding out ot be bought out as I was promised at the time I purchased the timeshare, these people are definately good liars or try to be. They tell me one thing and then do another.  Now they are sending me the maintenance fees even though they said i wouold not own it if I didn't respond to their date which has already passed. I wish the attourney Genral would step in and get us our money back. Thanks for your response.


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## silverquarter2001@yahoo.com

krlorenz said:


> I appreciate your last post Sandy.  This has been so frustrating for a very long time and now just because a develper wants to "help" take the property off our hands we are supposed to be overwhelmed with joy.  No apology necessary.  I am just tired of this mess.  But I will not sign away my land and would encourage every SBR owner not to sign until we know all the facts.  I am in the process of finding out all I can and hope to keep owners that haven't been scared into signing their deeds over informed as to what is happening.  Maybe it will help maybe not, but at least I can say I tried to do what I think is right.



Thankyou very much for being here, I was having a hard time trying to find the right spot to find the other timeshare owners such as yourself. Just today in fact I received a letter of them wanting me to send them more money for maintenance fees, they are telling me now that if they are not paid by August 1st, 2008 that it will go into foreclosure, I think this is about the time they want to trade resorts with Harrarahs, how conveinent if i won't exchange my deed, lets foreclose it on me. These people are at the bottom of society.  Thanks again


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## silverquarter2001@yahoo.com

krlorenz said:


> I find all the advice on the SBR problem very interesting.  I thank all of you for your input.    I would be interested in input from other SBR owners on this subject and preferably owners that have the history on how we got where we are today.  Thanks again for all the advice.



I can't tell you how the timeshare company got in this position, but I can tell you that we bought the timeshares on the same thoughts, increase in land value on the strip, which is exactly what our salesperson sold us on, he said their is only so much land on the strip and if someone wanted it they would need to buy us out, apparantly they can just take it without buying it.


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## janapur

silverquarter2001@yahoo.com said:


> I am with you on that, I am doing the same holding out ot be bought out as I was promised at the time I purchased the timeshare, these people are definately good liars or try to be. They tell me one thing and then do another.  Now they are sending me the maintenance fees even though they said i wouold not own it if I didn't respond to their date which has already passed. I wish the attourney Genral would step in and get us our money back. Thanks for your response.



I don't know what you were told at the time of purchase, but if it came out of the mouth of a ts salesperson it really doesn't matter because it probably was untruthful (embellished at the very least.) As a new owner, I am curious and am always open for a respectful debate. I have learned a great deal listening to the other side, so to speak.

Assuming you were going to be "bought out," you were making a speculative purchase just as I and other TUGgers have. However, we have no intention to be bought out other than an increased resale price. Did they ever demonstrate their buy out promise in writing? That would be something. It's not that I don't believe you were told this, I just have never heard it so I'm interested.

You raise an excellent point regarding your unsigned deed transfer. Does anyone know what will happen to those that have not signed and their respective maint. fees?

Jana


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## timeos2

*A little late to the party?*



silverquarter2001@yahoo.com said:


> I am with you on that, I am doing the same holding out ot be bought out as I was promised at the time I purchased the timeshare, these people are definately good liars or try to be. They tell me one thing and then do another.  Now they are sending me the maintenance fees even though they said i wouold not own it if I didn't respond to their date which has already passed. I wish the attourney Genral would step in and get us our money back. Thanks for your response.



Read what your documentation says. You bought a week of vacation in a unit at a resort that you share with thousands of other owners. None of you as individuals own the rights to the property but all of you together as an Association do.  As for being "on the strip" even the original location could be best described as "behind the strip" as none of the property actually fronts Las Vegas Blvd. You fell for a line from your sales weasel - the documents are all that count.  

Now you and your fellow owners have a chance to get a totally new resort, just a bit more "behind the strip" but actually in a better location and a better more secure property. To accomplish that your HOA worked very hard and did a great job - now you have to decide if you want to accept what they accomplished or let your week revert back for non-payment of fees owed. In no case are you going to "get your money back" so make your choices accordingly.


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## roadtriper

Silverquarter, Welcome to TUG!    not paying the Maint fees will generate a forclosure notice on any timeshare, anywhere. it's part of the Contract we all have signed.  and any HOA and/ or Mgmt Co. worth their salt will be very proactive on collections of  past due maint fees.   RT


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