# About To Lose My Job



## WinniWoman

Well, here I am- almost 62 years old. In my 13th year and the worst job I have ever had. Finally got to a point where I could coast a little bit and the company gets acquired by a management company.

Not to get into all the gory details, but they stick a guy I have worked with and known here for years in the top mgmt. position. From day one- he blocks me from our friendship on Facebook. He begins to over - exert his authority, I presume to let it be known to me that he is now my boss and he is not going to be pliable in any way, shape or form. Every email he sends to me he CC's the COO of the new company. He uses everything he knows about my opinions of various things related to the job against me. His tone in his phone calls and emails is like a knife sticking into my gut.  I get annoyed with him- he writes me up immediately. I have never been written up in my entire life, nor have I ever been fired. He has his "pet" employee in the office with us writing up our conversations. OMG- I can't take it...

I am now more than uncomfortable. He assigns me a task he knows is making me miserable and so very unhappy, with an unrealistic expectation and deadline. He also fires a 55 year old woman who has been there for 14 years- someone he never liked, but has been loyal to the company. He puts one of his "pets" into her position.

I start to get the picture. I decide there is age discrimination involved here. The new company probably wants a high energy, younger person with some of the latest marketing technology ideas. They want someone at their beckon call- ra ra and all that jazz. Wants to work 80 hours a week and no life.

I am convinced he is trying to make me quit or find grounds to fire me.

So- I decide it is time to be proactive when I told him he was harassing me and his back went up and he said he is contacting the owners. I demanded the contact info for the human resource person and spoke to her at length about age discrimination and harassment  and also about this man's past- which I won;t get into here but you would not believe it if I told you it is so crazy. Two of the things show his perception regarding my age and also there is a witness I named to it.

Since then, he is being cordial to me at least.

So at this point, the COO has sent an email to us saying she wants to address my work flow and also high tech marketing ideas sometime next week in a meeting.

The past 6 weeks have been hell for me. I find myself crying. I am so unhappy. I had 3 years to go until I could get Medicare and retire- figured I could take SS at 66- but I am just not going to make it.

I was sure they would fire me this week and was actually looking forward to the relief, but it didn't happen.

So- I have contacted a lawyer and am going to have to work on a lengthy questionnaire tomorrow. I do not want to keep my job. I just can't do it anymore and work in this situation knowing what they are trying to do to me. The only point of me getting a lawyer is to maybe get me out of the job with some kind of severance and my PTO days. Someone to do the talking for me as I get emotional and start to cry. I am afraid to try to negotiate a resignation. The other woman that they fired and was there 14 years got 6 weeks severance- but she forgot to ask about PTO days and she mistakenly signed the papers before she thought it through. At least she will also get unemployment. If I am not fired I will not.

I am not sure if I should even continue with this stupid project he has me doing as I want to blow my brains out every day doing it - it is torture for me.

I want to be out by April 1st one way or another. Or at least give notice by then or get fired by then. I haven't slept in weeks and I am in a constant nervous state. I am so done.


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## silentg

This is awful. I too was working in a hostile environment. I talked to hr and they told me I could take early retirement. Since I was having a constant struggle with a co worker. I resigned as soon as they said I was eligible. I really liked my job and most everyone in my office. But I did not feel safe with my co worker. Who I could have had fired, but the possibility of retaliation was more of a concern for me.
I hope things work out for you. BTW my coworker stayed an extra two years after me and retired. Never had to be confronted about the hostle atmosphere that was caused. Crazy World!
Silentg


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## VacationForever

Oh, Mary Ann, I am so sorry to read this.  Not much to offer except lots of virtual hugs.  This really sucks and you are doing all the right things to support your position against what this guy and what the company are doing to you.

When things are down in my life, I tell myself ithat at least I am healthy and alive.  Please keep your chin up.  Do something nice for yourself.  Nice hot bubble bath.  Have some chocolates with strawberries etc, whatever you love.


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## Passepartout

I'm with the above TUGgers in supporting you. It's tough having to work in a hostile environment. Keep notes on anything and everything. Make a friend in HR. And, of course your TUG family will listen and send TUG hugs.

Best!

Jim


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## Tank

That's awful , so sorry anyone would have to go thru anything like this. 
Lack of respect and only getting worse. 
God bless you and keep you safe. Good luck !

As karma bites the ass of those in need.


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## stmartinfan

So sorry to hear about your crummy work environment.  Good decision to hire an attorney. Most companies don't want the expense and visibility of fighting an age discrimination suit, so that should help you in getting a fair exit package.


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## WinniWoman

This is a very small company as companies go. The HR person evidently doubles as a project manager. She is out in another state- I am thinking she probably works from home. For all I know, she is the COO's sister. 

When speaking to her she had no "affect". She was like a flat line in a cardiac unit.


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## DaveNV

There are federal laws that protect people from discrimination in the workplace.  Your lawyer should be able to provide help with that.  

Hang in there.  If you walk away, they win.  Make them pay for it.

Dave


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## pedro47

This is not good news. Please document everything that this supervisor says to you (dates & time) do not share this information with HR or your co-workers; only with your lawyer  . Please have this person to put their negative comments in an email form and you must print them out and saved every negative email comments. Take your negative emails  home and do not discuss this problem with your fellow employees.
I am Wishing you peace of mind and good luck.

Do not quit, then you would be unable to collect unemployment benefits.


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## Sugarcubesea

mpumilia said:


> Well, here I am- almost 62 years old. In my 13th year and the worst job I have ever had. Finally got to a point where I could coast a little bit and the company gets acquired by a management company.
> 
> Not to get into all the gory details, but they stick a guy I have worked with and known here for years in the top mgmt. position. From day one- he blocks me from our friendship on Facebook. He begins to over - exert his authority, I presume to let it be known to me that he is now my boss and he is not going to be pliable in any way, shape or form. Every email he sends to me he CC's the COO of the new company. He uses everything he knows about my opinions of various things related to the job against me. His tone in his phone calls and emails is like a knife sticking into my gut.  I get annoyed with him- he writes me up immediately. I have never been written up in my entire life, nor have I ever been fired. He has his "pet" employee in the office with us writing up our conversations. OMG- I can't take it...
> 
> I am now more than uncomfortable. He assigns me a task he knows is making me miserable and so very unhappy, with an unrealistic expectation and deadline. He also fires a 55 year old woman who has been there for 14 years- someone he never liked, but has been loyal to the company. He puts one of his "pets" into her position.
> 
> I start to get the picture. I decide there is age discrimination involved here. The new company probably wants a high energy, younger person with some of the latest marketing technology ideas. They want someone at their beckon call- ra ra and all that jazz. Wants to work 80 hours a week and no life.
> 
> I am convinced he is trying to make me quit or find grounds to fire me.
> 
> So- I decide it is time to be proactive when I told him he was harassing me and his back went up and he said he is contacting the owners. I demanded the contact info for the human resource person and spoke to her at length about age discrimination and harassment  and also about this man's past- which I won;t get into here but you would not believe it if I told you it is so crazy. Two of the things show his perception regarding my age and also there is a witness I named to it.
> 
> Since then, he is being cordial to me at least.
> 
> So at this point, the COO has sent an email to us saying she wants to address my work flow and also high tech marketing ideas sometime next week in a meeting.
> 
> The past 6 weeks have been hell for me. I find myself crying. I am so unhappy. I had 3 years to go until I could get Medicare and retire- figured I could take SS at 66- but I am just not going to make it.
> 
> I was sure they would fire me this week and was actually looking forward to the relief, but it didn't happen.
> 
> So- I have contacted a lawyer and am going to have to work on a lengthy questionnaire tomorrow. I do not want to keep my job. I just can't do it anymore and work in this situation knowing what they are trying to do to me. The only point of me getting a lawyer is to maybe get me out of the job with some kind of severance and my PTO days. Someone to do the talking for me as I get emotional and start to cry. I am afraid to try to negotiate a resignation. The other woman that they fired and was there 14 years got 6 weeks severance- but she forgot to ask about PTO days and she mistakenly signed the papers before she thought it through. At least she will also get unemployment. If I am not fired I will not.
> 
> I am not sure if I should even continue with this stupid project he has me doing as I want to blow my brains out every day doing it - it is torture for me.
> 
> I want to be out by April 1st one way or another. Or at least give notice by then or get fired by then. I haven't slept in weeks and I am in a constant nervous state. I am so done.




Maryanne, I'm so very sorry to hear this...This is my biggest worry, I need to work till I hit 65 for the medicare and to make retirement work... I'm going to be 57 this year and hope the company I work for does not sell out or change ownership... I wish you nothing but the best...Working in a hostile environment causes so much stress...much love


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## Sugarcubesea

mpumilia said:


> Well, here I am- almost 62 years old. In my 13th year and the worst job I have ever had. Finally got to a point where I could coast a little bit and the company gets acquired by a management company.
> 
> Not to get into all the gory details, but they stick a guy I have worked with and known here for years in the top mgmt. position. From day one- he blocks me from our friendship on Facebook. He begins to over - exert his authority, I presume to let it be known to me that he is now my boss and he is not going to be pliable in any way, shape or form. Every email he sends to me he CC's the COO of the new company. He uses everything he knows about my opinions of various things related to the job against me. His tone in his phone calls and emails is like a knife sticking into my gut.  I get annoyed with him- he writes me up immediately. I have never been written up in my entire life, nor have I ever been fired. He has his "pet" employee in the office with us writing up our conversations. OMG- I can't take it...
> 
> I am now more than uncomfortable. He assigns me a task he knows is making me miserable and so very unhappy, with an unrealistic expectation and deadline. He also fires a 55 year old woman who has been there for 14 years- someone he never liked, but has been loyal to the company. He puts one of his "pets" into her position.
> 
> I start to get the picture. I decide there is age discrimination involved here. The new company probably wants a high energy, younger person with some of the latest marketing technology ideas. They want someone at their beckon call- ra ra and all that jazz. Wants to work 80 hours a week and no life.
> 
> I am convinced he is trying to make me quit or find grounds to fire me.
> 
> So- I decide it is time to be proactive when I told him he was harassing me and his back went up and he said he is contacting the owners. I demanded the contact info for the human resource person and spoke to her at length about age discrimination and harassment  and also about this man's past- which I won;t get into here but you would not believe it if I told you it is so crazy. Two of the things show his perception regarding my age and also there is a witness I named to it.
> 
> Since then, he is being cordial to me at least.
> 
> So at this point, the COO has sent an email to us saying she wants to address my work flow and also high tech marketing ideas sometime next week in a meeting.
> 
> The past 6 weeks have been hell for me. I find myself crying. I am so unhappy. I had 3 years to go until I could get Medicare and retire- figured I could take SS at 66- but I am just not going to make it.
> 
> I was sure they would fire me this week and was actually looking forward to the relief, but it didn't happen.
> 
> So- I have contacted a lawyer and am going to have to work on a lengthy questionnaire tomorrow. I do not want to keep my job. I just can't do it anymore and work in this situation knowing what they are trying to do to me. The only point of me getting a lawyer is to maybe get me out of the job with some kind of severance and my PTO days. Someone to do the talking for me as I get emotional and start to cry. I am afraid to try to negotiate a resignation. The other woman that they fired and was there 14 years got 6 weeks severance- but she forgot to ask about PTO days and she mistakenly signed the papers before she thought it through. At least she will also get unemployment. If I am not fired I will not.
> 
> I am not sure if I should even continue with this stupid project he has me doing as I want to blow my brains out every day doing it - it is torture for me.
> 
> I want to be out by April 1st one way or another. Or at least give notice by then or get fired by then. I haven't slept in weeks and I am in a constant nervous state. I am so done.




Print Out or email to yourself all emails that are hostile or show that you are being treated unfairly.   My friend had this happen to her at her company. She had been there 20 years and a new company came in and started doing everthing possible to make her quit, she documented and printed everthing out and when it went to court she won and in addition to the nice settlement the former company also had to pay all of her attorneys fees...document everthing...


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## Iggyearl

Mary Ann - not to be facetious, but your age may work to your benefit in this case.  No company wants to get hauled to court for age discrimination.  If you can keep your cool, and  try and take the emotion out of this, it can work to your advantage.  As recommended, keep good records.  If you don't have a BFF at work - don't look for one now.  Vent with your husband.  Or vent here on Tug.  

Every company that changes hands wants to "improve performance."  That means thinking differently and cutting the "dead wood."  In many cases, "heads need to roll."  But in may cases THAT is not legal.  If you've made it this far, you can make it further.  If they don't want you - let them buy you out.  That is, get them to give you something for your years of service.  Maybe up to and including paying for your health insurance until you can get Medicare.

By the way, I do know where you are coming from.  I got fired in 1988.  After 13 years of being VP of a manufacturing company.  Threw up every morning for over two months.  Survived.  Prospered.  You will too......  Best wishes.


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## Talent312

For those contemplating early retirement (even if involuntary):
DW whines about how much my age-62 retirement cost us for health insurance.
I remind her that a partial lump-sum from my pension paid off our mortgage, so...
And besides, the value of one's mental health is priceless.


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## WalnutBaron

Mary Ann, I own a business where we love to show appreciation for all of our team members. We're tough when we have to be, but that occurs for non-performance or being late to work. Our CFO just turned 65 today, and we hope he stays on the job for at least another five years. Our Plant Manager is 64. I echo DaveNW's advice: Hang in there. Don't quit. Do your best to keep a stiff upper lip and do all you can to do the work assigned to you. You've given management notice that you're aware of age discrimination laws, and apparently the word has gone out to your boss. As tough as this is, make them fire you and then let your lawyer take it from there.

I'll give you one more piece of what I hope will be encouraging news: the economy is so good right now that companies are looking for people in their 60's to get work done. People in their 60's are more loyal, have experience, and seek to please.


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## vacationhopeful

I was laid off in the late 1982 ... months away from qualifying for a DEFINED PENSION .. just months short of a 10 year vested pension.* I was ANGRY* but took a subsided offered to ALL laid off people. I was 1 of 2 people, out of a thousand or more laid off former employees, who took that plan.... go back to any qualified college program based on length of former employment.

*I got my MBA* ... where the separation package was "_90% tuition and books paid for plus 50% of my former salary with health care included for 1 year_". Had no student loans and had enough time to CHILL, adjust my attitude and redirect my energy. Next job I got, was a corporate contract consultant ... a percentage rate consultant at a top 20 company where I counted my hourly rate as ALL PROFIT for 3.5 years. Invested the money ... and have NOT worked in 'structure job' for anyone but myself since 1988. Yes, 30 years ago. I brought real estate.

*Am I happy? Yes... most days. I know I sleep well at night. I enjoy life.*

Best thing that ever happened to me? Who knows ... *I know I made it worked for me.* I go to work everyday ... out of bed before 6AM ... because my work day has me leaving the house by 6:45AM. A schedule is always needed .. selfemployed or punching a time clock.

My best advice to you ... cry ONLY at home. _Practice that smile ... a full grin is good._ Even a quiet laugh & chuckle. Never frown ... causes wrinkes. Set a self-inprovement goal(s) ... lose weight, take a language, learn to cook French food, to to Europe, volunteer for a "Habitat for Humanity" project ... make a MUST DO list  ...  do not sit home watching TV or surfing the internet.


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## heathpack

Aw this sounds terrible.  I hope when it all shakes out you’ll find it wasn’t as bad as you thought.  Maybe you can move on with a better QOL.

But I agree with others posting above- listen to your lawyer.  The company I’m sure is somewhat afraid of a lawsuit, so leverage that as best you can.


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## Panina

I am so sorry you are going through this. I wish there was something I could do to make it better for you.

I know the feeling.  I had a terrible co worker at one of my jobs that wanted me out.  It was a terrible environment but I stuck it out just doing my best.  Fast forward, I stood until I retired. In time things got better and the co worker was gone. 

Maybe you can take a medical leave of absence, stress related to distance yourself for awhile.


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## jackio

I have no further words of wisdom, but am sending my best wishes for a positive solution when you part ways.


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## dsmrp

Very sorry for your job situation.  I agree with the others to give mgmt as little cause as possible to fire you.  Don't resign.  Document what you're working on: time spent, status, issues preventing progress, risks etc.

If he tells you things, decisions and other important items verbally, but never in email, then write him an email stating what you heard him say and ask him to clarify if you mis-stated. Be factual; try to keep reactions, emotions and assumptions out of it. I know it's hard, but if you can't, then don't email.

I had a director who was very well known for never sending any decisions in email, always coming by someone's cube to talk to them. A co-worker who had worked with this mgr for several years would email him his verbal decisions so she would have a record of what she thought he said.  It wasn't that the director was doing this to get rid of us; he just  didn't want anything in writing coming from him 

There may be a bit of age discrimination where I work, but it is very hard to prove.


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## easyrider

Good Luck Marry Ann !!! You should ask for a raise and an extra paid week off before you go. 

Bill


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## TUGBrian

so very sorry you are in that position   i hope it works out!


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## Bwolf

Talk to your lawyer about unemployment.  Document the hostile work environment.  I've heard that if you are forced to quit you may still be able to collect unemployment.  Your lawyer should be able to guide you in that direction.  

Also, you should ask for more than the pittance severance your coworker got.  Develop a strategy with your lawyer.  Asking for one year is not unreasonable.  Settling for a 6 months severance is ok.  Again, your lawyer will know what is a reasonable strategy and settlement.

And, Maryanne, good luck.


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## pedro47

Also, if you are terminated for causes. Please file for Unemployment Insurance asap.  If you are denied Unemployment Insurance (and I am praying this will never happen if you are terminated & I am praying things can be resolved peaceful on your job). Please file an Appeal, if you are denied Unemployment Insurance . This will cause an Unemployment Hearing Officer to review your case and to make an UIS determination. There is a third step in the appeal process in most states and I will explain later.

I am wishing you peace of mind and please do not discuss your problems with co-workers.


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## loosefeet

I have done all kinds of things (scrubbing toilets, cleaning floors, working in an iron mine, etc) as jobs.  Many jobs were not nice places to work.  But, I have a mantrum when I'm not happy with the work--I am doing good by doing work, and I am getting paid!  I try not to invest so emotionally in a job--only if the environment allows me to also be supported emotionally do I open up.  So, do your project, sing a song in your head, go home and be grateful for the money.  On the other hand, if you run into difficult people, don't engage beyond what you need to--and document if they are making your job difficult.  Good you have a lawyer.  However, slow and steady (and unemotionally) to make your case.  If you want a job where you are liked and appreciated, cut ties when you can and move on.  Otherwise, you may be practicing your mantrum until you retire.  You may not have the power to change the current work environment--you may only have the power to make choices in how you respond.


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## GrayFal

DaveNW said:


> There are federal laws that protect people from discrimination in the workplace.  Your lawyer should be able to provide help with that.
> 
> Hang in there.  If you walk away, they win.  Make them pay for it.
> 
> Dave


I am with Dave. 
Do what your lawyer says. 
Do your job even if it is difficult.  
The fact that you have a stellar record with this company prior to the takeover is greatly in your favor and your lawyer will negotiate a deal for you. 

Stay strong and hugs


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## vacationhopeful

My mantra was "One Dollar, Two Dollars, Three Dollars, Four Dollars, Five Dollars" ... then I would start counting over when doing a task I am NOT interested in.

*Keep a cool head ... this is NOT your life. This is NOT who you are. It is a just a job.*

And don't worry about what MAY HAPPEN in the future. Right now, you have a job. If you don't tomorrow, you have a husband and unemployment. Plus, less stress ... might mean better health. Losing a job does NOT MEAN the boss is chopping your head off or your right hand.


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## IngridN

I'm sorry for your job situation. Lots of good advice. I do have one comment...do NOT trust HR. HR exists to protect the company not the employee. Be very careful in your communications with HR.


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## bluehende

No one should have to go through this.  I worked for a company that routinely pushed out older employees and lost lawsuits over it regularly.  I know it is impossible but try to look on the bright side.  The worst thing that can happen is you are fired and this stress leaves your life.  You have done the right thing by contacting a lawyer while this is happening.  My only piece of advice is to have everything at home.  Many have told you to print or send emails to yourself to make sure you have access to them.  Great advice.  Also any paperwork that would establish your great employment record needs to be at home.  Good luck and try to remain zen through the whole ordeal.


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## VacationForever

The new owner could have made things easier by laying off staff rather than trying to "performance manage" the staff out the door, making it miserable for everyone.  The difference is that the company is liable to pay unemployment for the former while the latter is not.  Horrible move by the new owner.


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## vacationhopeful

Unless you have worked for a EGO NUT and SELF-CENTERED JERK .. you could not understand how narrow their vision is. THEY are clueless that other people have feelings and rights. They are the boss and you do exactly as they say... or think ... or their telepathic way. 

Clean up your resume ... network with other former co-workers (Facebook and private email accounts) ... opportunites do happen.


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## linpat

Echoes of what has already been said about good vibes to you in a lousy situation.
And I hope you have a lawyer who is tough enough to eat ground glass for breakfast and walk on hot coals for you.


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## WinniWoman

Thank you everyone. Excellent input from all. I actually spent most of today writing up past history and the incident, as well as filling in the lawyers' questionnaire. (16 pages altogether).  Fun Sunday!

I am mentally drained and I am going to see what the attorney says and let everything play out. I wish they would have just laid me off instead of me having to go through this. It would have been so much easier to deal with. 
Now the thought of continuing to work there makes me sick to my stomach.

I just keep telling myself- worse comes to worse - I could always call them at any point in time and say I am not coming back. But I would rather leave with something if I can.

To be continued.....tomorrow is Monday....ugh!


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## Talent312

You may not have "the goods" on your supervisor... like Kevin Spacy's character in "American Beauty"... but perhaps between you + your attorney can find enuff leverage for a decent severance package.


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## Glynda

Hope things are looking up at work tomorrow and I'm sorry you've had such a rough time with this new management.
You've received some good advice here...don't quit, keep emotion out of it, don't give them too much information about how you are feeling right now, document, document, document and print those notes, documents, emails, texts, etc., and take them home. I would also suggest not to procrastinate on removing/deleting anything you may have on your company computer that is/was for personal use. Keep your chin up!


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## am1

Sorry to hear about all this. I wish you the best and hope that your company does not find your postings on here.  I would not check this website from work.


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## geekette

I am so sorry to hear this.  I hope you get a giant exit package.   When I was downsized a few years ago there was a special extra payment for being above age 40.  Try to get outplacement $ for retraining.  Try to get them to continue to subsidize med ins.  If they want you out for future cost savings, think about what bag of whatever you want to leave now and take up a lesser job for bennies elsewhere.   Maybe not your field, maybe not your salary, but that's why you ask for more $ now.   

Be careful dealing with HR, they do not work for you.  Document everything is that discussion for your lawyer.  Glad they pushed the idiot back in line, but that also means they are guarding against you to protect the company.     

Try to keep your cool and carry on.  It won't take long.  Careful on not doing assignments, tho, as that could bite you worse.  Nothing says you have to be particularly good at the crap work, tho.  You do not need to make this jackass look good nor be the company work horse.   Do your job while you collect a paycheck but no reason to go the extra mile.  

Your revenge will be in living well after this job concludes.  Go out with your dignity and integrity intact.  And remember, everything is a choice and nobody can make you do anything that you don't want to.

Be strong, girl, we got your back!


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## JudyH

Good luck. I'm glad you got a lawyer. Hope he's a pit bull.


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## 1st Class

Age used to be a good thing, signifying experience, wisdom and maturity, not a liability.  I've seen this happen firsthand before, after several co-workers were victimized.  Hang in there, keep a positive attitude and try to shake off the negativity being thrown your way.  Tough as it may be, use your skills to your advantage and keep demonstrating your value to the company.  You don't need to add fuel to their fire.  I agree with the others re: documenting everything.  Go to friends, family and TUG family for support.  Confide in no one at work.  Good luck to you.


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## ace2000

Good luck to Mary Ann.  A lot of good advice given so far, but the only thing I'd add is to take emotions out of the equation as much as possible.  Try to start fresh, because things start to bother you more and more in the workplace throughout the years, and tend to snowball.  Take a step back, and determine what you're willing to put up with - your best option might be just making it work for a few more years.  A candid conversation with your new boss/old coworker could clear the air and give you a new start.  There have been a few times where I've been overwhelmed with negativity in the workplace, and looking back, it turned out to be nothing.  Only you know the extent and magnitude of what you're having to deal with.


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## nomoretslt

I agree with the good advice here.  I'll give you a quick review of what happened to me.  Worked as an admin for a really great corporate VP lawyer.  He retired, they replaced him with an "outsider".  This guy was an egomaniac and (in my opinion and many others) a sociopath.  He was cheating on his wife and expected me to cover for him.  He was also making sexually suggestive remarks to me.  I was much older than him so I know he wasn't "interested", he was just trying to make me uncomfortable.  He told me a terrible story about something he did to somebody (and it was a true story, as I did a little research).  I started printing out e-mails and documenting things, talked with HR and with our HR attorney (who reported to him.....so figured out the hard way that she was not my "friend").  My HR rep kept a written record of my complaints.  Things got so bad emotionally for me that I had to take a medical leave.  Long story short, my HR rep left the company, I did visit a couple of different lawyers (all they wanted to know was if he "touched" me).  Learned that lawyers don't like suing other lawyers.  Was informed by HR that there was no record of my complaints.  I ended up letting my disability run out, and never returning to a job I once loved at the age of 52.

A few words of advice. I  agree with all that said to take the emotions OUT of the situation.  Looking back now, I'm really annoyed with myself for letting him "win".  But at the time, my health was suffering, I was extremely depressed, the commute was a nightmare.  I was making a really great salary and was building up an impressive 401K and pension.  My situation was different, though.  My husband had a good job with benefits, so there was no issue about health insurance.  My 401k and pension was protected.  And as it turned out, we had one family health issue after another and the task of elder care and caring for a couple of other extended family members fell on me since I wasn't "working".  No way I could have done that while working full time, so in the end it worked out for us.  

I would send HR an email listing the things you spoke about and asking them to verify what was discussed (or ask your lawyer if you should).  Get up every morning and take some time to think about the positive things regarding your situation.  Try to stick it out.  I would not quit unless and until you have discussed the situation at length with your lawyer.  You cut off too many options that way.  Be pleasant to your new boss and co-workers.  DO NOT discuss your plans, complaints, etc. to anyone you work with.  DO NOT use your work computer to do anything personal (facebook, twitter, shopping, discussion forums).  Do your work as if you loved every minute of it.  I like the Mantra idea...Each hour that goes by is an hour closer to reach your own retirement goal.

Believe me, I know exactly what you are going through.  I'm glad you have a lawyer and are being proactive about your situation. Sorry this is so long....looking back I believe I made a mistake by not sticking it out, but like you, at the time I thought I was going to have a breakdown.  Oh, and they did finally terminate him....but it took them many years.  Kind of hard to get rid of a lawyer.

Good luck to you.


----------



## geekette

Mary Ann, it seems to me that you don't take much time off, there was a big hoo hah over a trip planned for a long time.  If you have time in the bank, take some.   Your mental health is very important, guard it.


----------



## am1

I could not go to a place that did not want me.  My time and well being is too valuable.  Some could say I give up too easily but what I did was right for me.  No plans to ever work for a company again and only really worked a real job for 2 weeks and quit. I had jobs in high school/university. I had a better option at the time that easily justified it.  

On the same hand I do not think that an employer should have to keep someone they do not want.  If they are not a good fit for the company (even if it is because the company is sold/management changes) then they should be let go with a mandated or better severance package.  If someone who happens to be hungrier, possibly younger, willing to work for less money is out there the company should go after them.  Just the same as in pro sports.  Thankfully I only use other companies or what would be considered 1099's.


----------



## WinniWoman

geekette said:


> Mary Ann, it seems to me that you don't take much time off, there was a big hoo hah over a trip planned for a long time.  If you have time in the bank, take some.   Your mental health is very important, guard it.




I get 28 PTO days per year and they are all planned out between my 3 weeks of timeshares and my one week Home Away rental as well as the day after Thanksgiving and XMAS week (a few days of which we go to New Hampshire to be with out son). Heaven forbid an emergency or illness comes up- then I have another problem with my employer. As it is they took one PTO day from me- even though I asked to not be paid- during a bad snowstorm when I couldn't get in- and I did try. The former CEO said he would give it back to me and take the pay-= but never did  as it happened just when this new company took over. When THEY close the office- they do allow a non paid day or you have to take a PTO day. I have already had one of those.

(And- yes- the big hoo ha in the past was that I have 2 consecutive weeks (my timeshare ownerships) in the summer and the ex- boss kept telling me the company frowns on employees taking 2 weeks in a row. Meanwhile, a couple of other employees take 2 weeks in a row. To me- this is non negotiable; I took them anyway with no issue.).


----------



## WinniWoman

nomoretslt said:


> I agree with the good advice here.  I'll give you a quick review of what happened to me.  Worked as an admin for a really great corporate VP lawyer.  He retired, they replaced him with an "outsider".  This guy was an egomaniac and (in my opinion and many others) a sociopath.  He was cheating on his wife and expected me to cover for him.  He was also making sexually suggestive remarks to me.  I was much older than him so I know he wasn't "interested", he was just trying to make me uncomfortable.  He told me a terrible story about something he did to somebody (and it was a true story, as I did a little research).  I started printing out e-mails and documenting things, talked with HR and with our HR attorney (who reported to him.....so figured out the hard way that she was not my "friend").  My HR rep kept a written record of my complaints.  Things got so bad emotionally for me that I had to take a medical leave.  Long story short, my HR rep left the company, I did visit a couple of different lawyers (all they wanted to know was if he "touched" me).  Learned that lawyers don't like suing other lawyers.  Was informed by HR that there was no record of my complaints.  I ended up letting my disability run out, and never returning to a job I once loved at the age of 52.
> 
> A few words of advice. I  agree with all that said to take the emotions OUT of the situation.  Looking back now, I'm really annoyed with myself for letting him "win".  But at the time, my health was suffering, I was extremely depressed, the commute was a nightmare.  I was making a really great salary and was building up an impressive 401K and pension.  My situation was different, though.  My husband had a good job with benefits, so there was no issue about health insurance.  My 401k and pension was protected.  And as it turned out, we had one family health issue after another and the task of elder care and caring for a couple of other extended family members fell on me since I wasn't "working".  No way I could have done that while working full time, so in the end it worked out for us.
> 
> I would send HR an email listing the things you spoke about and asking them to verify what was discussed (or ask your lawyer if you should).  Get up every morning and take some time to think about the positive things regarding your situation.  Try to stick it out.  I would not quit unless and until you have discussed the situation at length with your lawyer.  You cut off too many options that way.  Be pleasant to your new boss and co-workers.  DO NOT discuss your plans, complaints, etc. to anyone you work with.  DO NOT use your work computer to do anything personal (facebook, twitter, shopping, discussion forums).  Do your work as if you loved every minute of it.  I like the Mantra idea...Each hour that goes by is an hour closer to reach your own retirement goal.
> 
> Believe me, I know exactly what you are going through.  I'm glad you have a lawyer and are being proactive about your situation. Sorry this is so long....looking back I believe I made a mistake by not sticking it out, but like you, at the time I thought I was going to have a breakdown.  Oh, and they did finally terminate him....but it took them many years.  Kind of hard to get rid of a lawyer.
> 
> Good luck to you.



Wow! That is some story! There really are a lot of dirt bags out there!

People will think I am crazy, but last evening I was able to decompress by reading over parts of  a very inspirational astrology book I have.  Going into work today- I was ZEN. I was calm and I decided on a quit date- changeable depending on what transpires or what the attorney says. And naturally if I get fired instead. This made me feel better. Based on my astrology, I will look at it as an adventure.

I decided I would not sit at that desk for 8 hours in a dark hot room punching in those numbers. I would start the day- which was nice and sunny- going to a few of our clients and then go back into the office and do some of that data entry. Then I got up and took a 15 minute walk outside and came back and did some more. Then I had lunch. Then I did some more and then I went out in the field again and went home. The terrorist boss did not speak to me at all today so it made things go smoothly for me. I took my time with everything- no hurries and no worries. No sense of urgency. Just steadily did my thing.

I do not have health insurance with this company right now, but would need it for a year  (2 more years from now) when my husband retires so he wouldn't have to work an extra year. Plus- a lot of layoffs have been going on at his company this past year so we never feel secure. I have no pension. My husbands' pension was cut off at the knees.

As for the attorney- I have not officially retained him/her yet. They have my written information and I am now awaiting them to review it to see what- if anything- can or should be done and what the fees would be if something could.

I am always pleasant to everyone. It is my job to be so. And I never do anything personal on the company computer- and they have Facebook and all social media blocked. On the company cell phone- I do not have apps. I use the internet to check my home email and Facebook and sometimes TUG! and then I sign out and clear up everything everyday on it.


----------



## Egret1986

Great job, Mary Ann!


----------



## geekette

Outstanding!

For me, once I know I'm leaving, it eases the stress and it sounds like having a date in mind has done same for you.

Well done, Zen is where to be, keep doing that for yourself.

For health ins, why not call the insurer and ask if they have private policies similar to what you have and what it would cost.   I personally am hoping the concierge model takes hold here but expect until it does, I will be calling all over town to comparison shop.   Please consider that a secondary issue, the most important thing is emerging from current trauma with Self intact.   Stress is horrible on a person, do whatever necessary to stay in your Zen Zone.


----------



## WinniWoman

geekette said:


> Outstanding!
> 
> For me, once I know I'm leaving, it eases the stress and it sounds like having a date in mind has done same for you.
> 
> Well done, Zen is where to be, keep doing that for yourself.
> 
> For health ins, why not call the insurer and ask if they have private policies similar to what you have and what it would cost.   I personally am hoping the concierge model takes hold here but expect until it does, I will be calling all over town to comparison shop.   Please consider that a secondary issue, the most important thing is emerging from current trauma with Self intact.   Stress is horrible on a person, do whatever necessary to stay in your Zen Zone.




Thanks. I do not need health insurance as long as my husband keeps his job. I am covered under his policy. The issue will be when he retires 2 years from now and I will be only 64, therefore not eligible for Medicare.


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## DeniseM

I am also shopping for health insurance, and a knowledgeable agent told me that sometimes COBRA is better and cheaper than what you can buy on the open market, so I am looking into that.


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## VacationForever

DeniseM said:


> I am also shopping for health insurance, and a knowledgeable agent told me that sometimes COBRA is better and cheaper than what you can buy on the open market, so I am looking into that.


COBRA is tied directly to former employment, rates are whatever that employer's group rates are, which are typically cheaper and with better coverage than what is available in the individual market or ACA.  It must be bought immediately upon separation of employment and can be bought for between 18 months to 36 months, depending on employer staff size.


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## mrsstats

Just want to say how sorry I am that you have to go thru this.


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## rapmarks

My sister went through many years with a boss that had it in for her.  The boss would call her in in front of a co worker and reprimand her and humiliate her.  Boss retired, things got better and then company was bought out.  So at Age sixty two, my sister lost her job.  Only the youngest workers were kept on.   She is on cobra now, living off savings, hoping to find something for insurance when cobra runs out until time for medicare


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## uop1497

Sorry to heard about your job situation. No matter what happens, please do not resign. Hang in there as long as you can.

Your story remind me of my past situation at work. I worked for a boss, but as long as I do my daily assigment, he will not bother me. I remember we have a mid year review and he told me that " I am a reliale worker and he happy with my work performance. 

After that, another supervisor ( in same group) took over the whole group and my boss is no longer in supervisor possition, just become a regular worker like me. The new boss suddently talked to new manager and we ( me, my previous boss and another co- worker) get a written warning . In the new boss eye's, we did not performed well on our duty and we were given 90 days to improve out performance or more consequences will follow.

I cried serveral days because I am very upset. This is the first written warning I ever received in my 30 years working carrer.  After thinking and discussing with DH. I decided to fight the situation with whatever I have. At that time , all I can think is to keep my job. I stay longer at work for many hours and come in to work every weekend to make sure I never miss work the deadline for whatever job the new boss assigned to me. I also make sure the new boss knows I stay at work late and come to work in the weekend. 

After 90 days, my efforts pay off. I am out of probation situation while my previous boss and the other co-worker get terminate. Since then, under this new boss. I still stay make sure all the work assigned to me get done before the deadline. It take a couples years until finally the new boss accept me as one of his people and no longer giving me a hard time. 

I can never know the whole situation of why it happens and why the new boss target us ( me, my previous boss and my co -worker). I remember all around me , people I know, got lay off from work . Every week, I heard someone I know lost his or her job. It was very terrible and very depression situation.

I share my story with you with the hope that you will fight hard to keep your job for a few more years until you qualify for medicare. 

My DH is about your age and not long ago, his upper management ask him when plan to retire. Iam not sure it is just a normal conversation or it is a bad sign . I just hope DH can stay at his current jon 3 more years until he can get his medicare. But who knows, nowaday company loves to push away old worker to replace with new younger worker.


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## WinniWoman

Well, amazingly I am still on the job. Today the COO met with me and the director acting a mediator. He was very defensive. The COO asked me how I felt about the age discrimination after having this discussion. I told her I didn't know how I felt. I just said I didn't want to rehash everything and just wanted to do my job and hope all will be ok going forward. Then the COO tells me they are rewriting my job description and they are hiring a SECOND marketing rep. Says for the revenue our facility generates they would require 2 reps. The director then says I will have a lot to do. This is beyond suspicious to me.

First off, it is not a big territory that I have. Second, the Director just recently told me the marketing reps this company hires are all 1099 employees. Meanwhile, on their website there are no marketing reps listed amongst the staff shown- except one woman for two of their facilities. The others show none at all. Maybe their website is not up to date- this I don't know.

I don't know what to make of this whole thing with them wanting to hire another rep.

I am so tired of all of it....


----------



## DaveNV

mpumilia said:


> Well, amazingly I am still on the job. Today the COO met with me and the director acting a mediator. He was very defensive. The COO asked me how I felt about the age discrimination after having this discussion. I told her I didn't know how I felt. I just said I didn't want to rehash everything and just wanted to do my job and hope all will be ok going forward. Then the COO tells me they are rewriting my job description and they are hiring a SECOND marketing rep. Says for the revenue our facility generates they would require 2 reps. The director then says I will have a lot to do. This is beyond suspicious to me.
> 
> First off, it is not a big territory that I have. Second, the Director just recently told me the marketing reps this company hires are all 1099 employees. Meanwhile, on their website there are no marketing reps listed amongst the staff shown- except one woman for two of their facilities. The others show none at all. Maybe their website is not up to date- this I don't know.
> 
> I don't know what to make of this whole thing with them wanting to hire another rep.
> 
> I am so tired of all of it....



I'm sure you are very tired of it.  But if they're willing to hire someone else, they should be able to spread out the work, so you'll be better able to do what it is they do want you to do.  If you see it as a way for them to fire you for not doing your work, they're going to have to really make it impossible for you to do it, if they're expanding your job enough to include another person.  But maybe it'll work out for the best.  At least for now you still have a job, right?  

Dave


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## Trudyt623

Maryann, I am so sorry to hear of your misery and worry.  I unfortunately know the "Sunday sickness" on a weekly basis.  I am only turning 55 this year so I have a minimum of 8 and more likely 10 years to go before I can retire.  I pray on my drive to work every morning and ask for strength to accept that what ever happens, and know I will be okay. 
I hold on to the thought that when one door closes another opens but still I feel nervous and sometimes afraid.

Hang in there and stay calm.

Trudy


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## am1

You may like being a 1099 if that is the case.  More freedom.  One thing is for sure is that companies need fresh blood and not people who dislike their job and waiting to retire.  Common sense not age discrimination.  Hopefully the winds change.


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## turkel

am1 said:


> You may like being a 1099 if that is the case.  More freedom.  One thing is for sure is that companies need fresh blood and not people who dislike their job and waiting to retire.  Common sense not age discrimination.  Hopefully the winds change.



I am sure you didn't mean to be as callous as your post implied or as naive. Sometimes we all need to remember the golden rule...if you can't say something nice.....


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## Talent312

turkel said:


> Sometimes we all need to remember the golden rule...if you can't say something nice.....



Except that's not the Golden Rule. You mixed it up with the Bambi Rule.

The Golden Rule:
Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
... IOW, "kill them with kindness."

The Bambi Rule (a/k/a Thumper's Law):
If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all.
... Source: The movie, "Bambi" (1942).

The "Mr. Ed" principle is not as strict: Only talk when you have something to say.

.


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## turkel

Oops your completely right. My son loved Bambi. I had to tell him he could only butt heads with Daddy as his mommy was a delicate flower not to be mistaken for a skunk.


----------



## dsmrp

mpumilia said:


> Well, amazingly I am still on the job. Today the COO met with me and the director acting a mediator. He was very defensive. The COO asked me how I felt about the age discrimination after having this discussion. I told her I didn't know how I felt. I just said I didn't want to rehash everything and just wanted to do my job and hope all will be ok going forward. Then the COO tells me they are rewriting my job description and they are hiring a SECOND marketing rep. Says for the revenue our facility generates they would require 2 reps. The director then says I will have a lot to do. This is beyond suspicious to me.
> 
> First off, it is not a big territory that I have. Second, the Director just recently told me the marketing reps this company hires are all 1099 employees. Meanwhile, on their website there are no marketing reps listed amongst the staff shown- except one woman for two of their facilities. The others show none at all. Maybe their website is not up to date- this I don't know.
> 
> I don't know what to make of this whole thing with them wanting to hire another rep.
> 
> I am so tired of all of it....



hmm, the re-writing of your job description is, IMO, something to be very wary of.  They could use it to downgrade your position's skills and qualifications and with it your salary.  Or use it as a reason to lay you off if you don't fit the description.  They could be just re-evaluating the business lines and changing the tasks and approach.

Where I work, management does change job descriptions and required core competencies. But mostly after someone leaves or retires.


----------



## WinniWoman

DaveNW said:


> I'm sure you are very tired of it.  But if they're willing to hire someone else, they should be able to spread out the work, so you'll be better able to do what it is they do want you to do.  If you see it as a way for them to fire you for not doing your work, they're going to have to really make it impossible for you to do it, if they're expanding your job enough to include another person.  But maybe it'll work out for the best.  At least for now you still have a job, right?
> 
> Dave



The thing is- we do not need another marketing rep. I have been doing this for 12 going on 13 years. Unless all of a sudden they are going to swamp me with some kind of additional work, I don't see why we need another rep. I have a small territory here and it is a very locally focused position. All the clients know me.

I suspect this could be my replacement. That is my point.


----------



## WinniWoman

turkel said:


> I am sure you didn't mean to be as callous as your post implied or as naive. Sometimes we all need to remember the golden rule...if you can't say something nice.....



am1 has had this attitude with me for years now on most of my comments. I guess maybe the way I write my posts I come across differently to him/her than maybe others might see me- I am not sure what it is. He/she is cynical. But I am used to it and expect it form him/her.

All I can say to him/her regarding this situation is it works both ways. Employers have a big hand in forming the atmosphere and culture of a place. And my employer should remember I know all their clients and when I leave- no matter how it is done- I will be saying "goodbye" to all of them either on their time or mine.


----------



## am1

turkel said:


> I am sure you didn't mean to be as callous as your post implied or as naive. Sometimes we all need to remember the golden rule...if you can't say something nice.....



Not meant to be callous or naive at all.  Based on this thread and others and no matter how she thinks her attitude comes across to clients it is not good for the company.  Remember we are only getting one side.  I would not want someone working just for a paycheck.  I want someone that is happy to come to work, learn and grow.  

A lot of times people are better off with early retirement or a change in careers.


----------



## ace2000

am1 said:


> A lot of times people are better off with early retirement or a change in careers.



Based on a hunch, my guess is the OP is hoping to get fired.  It should be noted that 1099 employees do not pay into unemployment, so you probably will not be eligible for that, if a switch in status occurs.

Good luck, Mary Ann.  I hope it all works out in the end.


----------



## WalnutBaron

mpumilia said:


> Employers have a big hand in forming the atmosphere and culture of a place. And my employer should remember I know all their clients and when I leave- no matter how it is done- I will be saying "goodbye" to all of them either on their time or mine.



You're absolutely right, Mary Ann. Employers set the tone--and it begins with the person at the top of the organization. Does the CEO engage with other members of the team? It's natural for him/her to engage most frequently with members of the management team since those are the folks he/she interacts with most frequently in guiding the company. But at least once a week in a small business of 500 employees or less, the CEO needs to do what Waterman and Peters suggested a generation ago in their landmark book _In Search Of Excellence_: Management By Walking Around. It means just walking the office and/or plant floor, talking to people, hearing their concerns, sharing a story, learning a little about their families, encouraging them to keep up the good work. That kind of leadership creates an aura of goodwill that permeates the company. 

Of course, so many other things are necessary to create an inviting and productive workplace. But the point is that the tone and personality of a company starts with the CEO and is embodied in the kinds of people the company hires in the top level positions.

Several years ago, we hired an extremely bright and capable CFO. He was young--only in his 30's. His outward persona was one of confidence and effusive good cheer. And he was a hard worker, creative, brilliant in many ways. But over time, we began to see that the confidence could often cross over to arrogance. The good cheer was often a mask for scheming and undermining others. The creative brilliance was sometimes misapplied in a way that meant he was willing to cut corners. One of our best people--a young lady who reported to him--quit. And then a second very valuable person was on the verge of quitting. There was a common denominator--and it was the CFO. After much thought and prayer, I fired him--and it created a lot of upheaval for a few months. But I realized that his presence was like a slowly-growing cancer that was metastasizing within the company.

After his firing, we hired a CFO who was looking for his last job. He was 61, highly-experienced and capable, a complete team player. He lacks the dynamism and obvious brilliance of his predecessor, but he's loyal, low-key, grateful to have his job, and wants what is best for the company. Since then, we've promoted several people from within the company to higher level positions, including two Hispanic men who've worked their butts off, shown great leadership, and have proven their ability to lead by doing.

Four years removed from the situation with the young but flawed CFO, we are much healthier. Our people are happier. They feel safer. And they know that--no matter how smart and hard-working someone may be--the guy at the top is not afraid of making the tough personnel decisions to protect everyone else.

Finally, you may be right about the fact that your company is hiring your replacement. My advice is simple: don't worry about what you can't control; focus on what you _can _control. Work hard. Stay positive, at least outwardly. Come to work with a spring in your step, even if you're faking it. Learn to become an actress if you have to. As another TUGger offered, save the tears for home. Overproduce. If you think your managers have a bad attitude about you, don't assume it can't be changed. Outwork and outsmart your potential replacement. Your goal is to leave the company on _your _terms and in _your _timing--and that happens when you demonstrate to the organization that they've misread you and that there is more substance and resilience to you than they thought.

In the meantime, you have a lot of friends out here in TUG Land cheering you on


----------



## presley

mpumilia said:


> I suspect this could be my replacement. That is my point.


That was my first thought when you said they are hiring second person. Hopefully, they are just reworking the job into a couple different positions. Hang in there and do an outstanding job with all of your tasks. While you cannot control other people, you have control of what you do and how you do it. Let them feel a big loss when you do leave.


----------



## klpca

ace2000 said:


> Based on a hunch, my guess is the OP is hoping to get fired.  It should be noted that 1099 employees do not usually pay into unemployment, so you may not be eligible for that, if a switch occurs.
> 
> Good luck, Mary Ann.  I hope it all works out in the end.


And 1099 employees aren't employees, they are independent contractors. There are specific differences in the two classifications, so don't let them just suddenly make you a 1099 "employee". I was going to do a quick summary, but the information provided in this link does a much better job than I would. https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/understanding-employee-vs-contractor-designation

Best of luck Mary Ann.


----------



## Chrispee

When I first started working with the company I’ve been with for the past 15 years, I had a boss who told me: “Always make sure there’s at least one important thing at work that only you know how to do”.


----------



## sue1947

WalnutBaron said:


> Finally, you may be right about the fact that your company is hiring your replacement. My advice is simple: don't worry about what you can't control; focus on what you _can _control.



I agree with the above.  They may split the job with some additions from other areas, have you train the other person and then lay you off/fire you with the excuse that they are eliminating the position and try to avoid any implication of age discrimination.   In addition, the attempt to change your position to a contract one is troubling.  I think legal advise is called for to make sure you have the strongest hand possible.

Do what you can to prepare and then just do your job the best you can with the best attitude.  This will have the added benefit of helping your stress level as well.  It's difficult to just focus on what you can control, but it is excellent advise.  I have found that exercise, especially outdoors,  provides the best stress reduction.  Go for a walk when you get home or at lunch/breaks.  Get out there and work off some energy/stress and at the same time you can think through situations on how best to react or proceed. 

Good luck.  As you can see from the responses to this thread, this isn't just you.  

Sue


----------



## VacationForever

I understand that while it is a small territory, maybe they want to be more aggressive in growing their market share.  We ran a similar business for years and while we only had one marketing person, some of our competitors of similar size started hiring an extra marketing person or two in an attempt to grow their market share.  The new owner maybe doing just that, by adding more marketing staff to grow the business.


----------



## WinniWoman

ace2000 said:


> Based on a hunch, my guess is the OP is hoping to get fired.  It should be noted that 1099 employees do not pay into unemployment, so you probably will not be eligible for that, if a switch in status occurs.
> 
> Good luck, Mary Ann.  I hope it all works out in the end.



Actually, they have not approached me about becoming a 1099 employee. Back in November, the COO did ask me how I felt about it and I explained I wasn't crazy about it because of the unemployment issue, the filing of taxes and so forth and also the fact I would need health insurance in a couple of years. She said that could be written into a contract. But then I said I thought it was premature to even be discussing this and she agreed.

As for getting fired, well- if it comes down to being absolutely miserable and getting fired I would rather get fired or resign. But, to complicate matters, my husband's job is not secure as there are a lot of changes coming down the pike again there as well. So, I am trying my best to hang in there. What I would like is to just do my job and not be harassed. I would like pleasant, professional interactions with the director. Not much to ask.


----------



## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> Not meant to be callous or naive at all.  Based on this thread and others and no matter how she thinks her attitude comes across to clients it is not good for the company.  Remember we are only getting one side.  I would not want someone working just for a paycheck.  I want someone that is happy to come to work, learn and grow.
> 
> A lot of times people are better off with early retirement or a change in careers.



Wait- what? My attitude is A1 with the clients! In fact, most of the clients (many of whom are doctors or their staff) come to our facility for their own personal tests. And- guess who they ask to visit when they are there? Yours truly! I do not put on a negative face to the clients- ever! I am always professional and sincere and warm. It is not my nature to be otherwise. If you really knew me- you would get it. If this weren't true, I would have never lasted at this job or ANY of the jobs I have had all these years.

In fact, one client just told me this week she loves working with me as opposed to our competitors' rep.

And- yeah- I would love to be happy to come to work everyday. The one thing I am good with at work is being out of the office and talking and interacting with our clients.


----------



## DaveNV

I don't have a ready answer for you. It all just sounds lousy.  I hope it all works out to your satisfaction.  Wishing you nothing but good luck in this terrible situation. 

Dave


----------



## WinniWoman

WalnutBaron said:


> You're absolutely right, Mary Ann. Employers set the tone--and it begins with the person at the top of the organization. Does the CEO engage with other members of the team? It's natural for him/her to engage most frequently with members of the management team since those are the folks he/she interacts with most frequently in guiding the company. But at least once a week in a small business of 500 employees or less, the CEO needs to do what Waterman and Peters suggested a generation ago in their landmark book _In Search Of Excellence_: Management By Walking Around. It means just walking the office and/or plant floor, talking to people, hearing their concerns, sharing a story, learning a little about their families, encouraging them to keep up the good work. That kind of leadership creates an aura of goodwill that permeates the company.
> 
> Of course, so many other things are necessary to create an inviting and productive workplace. But the point is that the tone and personality of a company starts with the CEO and is embodied in the kinds of people the company hires in the top level positions.
> 
> Several years ago, we hired an extremely bright and capable CFO. He was young--only in his 30's. His outward persona was one of confidence and effusive good cheer. And he was a hard worker, creative, brilliant in many ways. But over time, we began to see that the confidence could often cross over to arrogance. The good cheer was often a mask for scheming and undermining others. The creative brilliance was sometimes misapplied in a way that meant he was willing to cut corners. One of our best people--a young lady who reported to him--quit. And then a second very valuable person was on the verge of quitting. There was a common denominator--and it was the CFO. After much thought and prayer, I fired him--and it created a lot of upheaval for a few months. But I realized that his presence was like a slowly-growing cancer that was metastasizing within the company.
> 
> After his firing, we hired a CFO who was looking for his last job. He was 61, highly-experienced and capable, a complete team player. He lacks the dynamism and obvious brilliance of his predecessor, but he's loyal, low-key, grateful to have his job, and wants what is best for the company. Since then, we've promoted several people from within the company to higher level positions, including two Hispanic men who've worked their butts off, shown great leadership, and have proven their ability to lead by doing.
> 
> Four years removed from the situation with the young but flawed CFO, we are much healthier. Our people are happier. They feel safer. And they know that--no matter how smart and hard-working someone may be--the guy at the top is not afraid of making the tough personnel decisions to protect everyone else.
> 
> Finally, you may be right about the fact that your company is hiring your replacement. My advice is simple: don't worry about what you can't control; focus on what you _can _control. Work hard. Stay positive, at least outwardly. Come to work with a spring in your step, even if you're faking it. Learn to become an actress if you have to. As another TUGger offered, save the tears for home. Overproduce. If you think your managers have a bad attitude about you, don't assume it can't be changed. Outwork and outsmart your potential replacement. Your goal is to leave the company on _your _terms and in _your _timing--and that happens when you demonstrate to the organization that they've misread you and that there is more substance and resilience to you than they thought.
> 
> In the meantime, you have a lot of friends out here in TUG Land cheering you on



OMG! I love this- what you wrote. And your description about the young man you fired is pretty much exactly what this young director is like- minus the brilliance! He has another side to him that I (and many of us "originals" at the place) know very well as I worked with him for 12 years. He is a practical joker; he runs a few other businesses on the side on company time; in the past has embarrassed me in many a doctor's office with his outrageous and immature behavior and a doctor even complained to our owner (at the time) about him. He has acted violently in the car with me in it; texts and drives and even passed a stopped school bus once with me in the car. He has made jokes about my clothes (calls my knit pants yoga pants) and age- called me mom in front of clients and even strangers- thinks it's funny. I never reported him as he was "above" me and friends with the CEO (at the time). I am not kidding about his past behavior. And- the office he ran in another state for our company was closed by the new company and it looks like the satellite center he co manged might also be closed at some point. And then somehow he becomes the head honcho at this place. Go figure...Now in this role he is overcompensating for what he knows I know about him. Now he wants to prove he has the power. That he commands respect. He has also worked some acting jobs- and so he really knows how to play this part of director of the center. 

I will tell you I always am in Actress mode when I need to be as a marketing rep. But there is real sincerity. I have a gregarious personality. I am empathetic. I do like to help people. My forte is customer service. I am well liked. Just today, a client was at our facility and came to visit me. Happens all the time in fact.

I will say I am doing whatever they tell me to do. I am being respectful and pleasant. Not in my nature not to be. I am a person that likes to complete my tasks.

I am not going overboard however. I have learned it really does not pay in the long run. Meanwhile, another person who has been with us a few years was just fired today....

Again, thanks for your inspiring words....so very much appreciated. And keeps things in perspective for me.


----------



## WinniWoman

sue1947 said:


> I agree with the above.  They may split the job with some additions from other areas, have you train the other person and then lay you off/fire you with the excuse that they are eliminating the position and try to avoid any implication of age discrimination.   In addition, the attempt to change your position to a contract one is troubling.  I think legal advise is called for to make sure you have the strongest hand possible.
> 
> Do what you can to prepare and then just do your job the best you can with the best attitude.  This will have the added benefit of helping your stress level as well.  It's difficult to just focus on what you can control, but it is excellent advise.  I have found that exercise, especially outdoors,  provides the best stress reduction.  Go for a walk when you get home or at lunch/breaks.  Get out there and work off some energy/stress and at the same time you can think through situations on how best to react or proceed.
> 
> Good luck.  As you can see from the responses to this thread, this isn't just you.
> 
> Sue



Thanks. I exercise every morning for an hour before work.Been doing so for over 20 years. And- I am constantly getting in and out of the car every day- I visit up to 20 places per day.  If I get stuck in the office, I make it a point to take a 15 minute walk in the am and pm. (I heard the "hatchet man"" was looking out the window and asking people if that was me out there walking.)

Soon as things lighten up more earlier in the morning, I actually walk outside and do litter duty on my road for the next 6 months.


----------



## WinniWoman

Chrispee said:


> When I first started working with the company I’ve been with for the past 15 years, I had a boss who told me: “Always make sure there’s at least one important thing at work that only you know how to do”.



I think the thing I have most is the excellent long term relationships with the clients.


----------



## WinniWoman

uop1497 said:


> Sorry to heard about your job situation. No matter what happens, please do not resign. Hang in there as long as you can.
> 
> Your story remind me of my past situation at work. I worked for a boss, but as long as I do my daily assigment, he will not bother me. I remember we have a mid year review and he told me that " I am a reliale worker and he happy with my work performance.
> 
> After that, another supervisor ( in same group) took over the whole group and my boss is no longer in supervisor possition, just become a regular worker like me. The new boss suddently talked to new manager and we ( me, my previous boss and another co- worker) get a written warning . In the new boss eye's, we did not performed well on our duty and we were given 90 days to improve out performance or more consequences will follow.
> 
> I cried serveral days because I am very upset. This is the first written warning I ever received in my 30 years working carrer.  After thinking and discussing with DH. I decided to fight the situation with whatever I have. At that time , all I can think is to keep my job. I stay longer at work for many hours and come in to work every weekend to make sure I never miss work the deadline for whatever job the new boss assigned to me. I also make sure the new boss knows I stay at work late and come to work in the weekend.
> 
> After 90 days, my efforts pay off. I am out of probation situation while my previous boss and the other co-worker get terminate. Since then, under this new boss. I still stay make sure all the work assigned to me get done before the deadline. It take a couples years until finally the new boss accept me as one of his people and no longer giving me a hard time.
> 
> I can never know the whole situation of why it happens and why the new boss target us ( me, my previous boss and my co -worker). I remember all around me , people I know, got lay off from work . Every week, I heard someone I know lost his or her job. It was very terrible and very depression situation.
> 
> I share my story with you with the hope that you will fight hard to keep your job for a few more years until you qualify for medicare.
> 
> My DH is about your age and not long ago, his upper management ask him when plan to retire. Iam not sure it is just a normal conversation or it is a bad sign . I just hope DH can stay at his current jon 3 more years until he can get his medicare. But who knows, nowaday company loves to push away old worker to replace with new younger worker.




Well- just wow! I give you a lot of credit for all that extra work you did to keep your job and the stamina you had to do it! You are better than me- I have a line I draw- however- my goal is always to work smart- not necessarily hard, though I am not afraid of hard work.

I hope all works out for your husband as well. My former CEO asked me last year if I planned on retiring with "him". I said I hoped I would make it. He said that 4 years was not that long (to me it is an eternity! LOL!)- Meanwhile he threw us all under the bus this year with the sale of the company. I just saw him today as I had to deliver something to him. I asked him how his vacation was and he said "not long enough". He has actually not been very happy himself the past few years.(not that I feel bad for him). Even though he was a jerk, he at least was mostly always pleasant and always backed me up with the hospital board.

I was just telling my husband tonight that it is really a shame how things are at this stage of life for people like us while I see so many other people who have been retired for like 10 years already at our age and moved to their sunny destinations and enjoying each day of their much younger lives.

But- then I slap myself and say I have to be grateful because things could be so much worse. We still have our health- at least right now.

Good luck to you and thank you so much for sharing your story with me! It does help a lot!


----------



## geekette

WalnutBaron said:


> You're absolutely right, Mary Ann. Employers set the tone--and it begins with the person at the top of the organization. Does the CEO engage with other members of the team? It's natural for him/her to engage most frequently with members of the management team since those are the folks he/she interacts with most frequently in guiding the company. But at least once a week in a small business of 500 employees or less, the CEO needs to do what Waterman and Peters suggested a generation ago in their landmark book _In Search Of Excellence_: Management By Walking Around. It means just walking the office and/or plant floor, talking to people, hearing their concerns, sharing a story, learning a little about their families, encouraging them to keep up the good work. That kind of leadership creates an aura of goodwill that permeates the company.
> ...


Outstanding.  

Just a few years ago, I left a job I loved because the CEO whose wacky ideas in the middle of the night I made into reality in daylight never bothered to have a conversation with me.   We were under 200 employees, I was reasonably important, in charge of use and visualization of data with an Always Fresh mandate.  It was a 24/7 job and I had no backup, there was no one that did what I did there, and only a few that could even understand what I built.   

I was fed up with being the company workhorse while just one level above me, they were flying all over the planet for "retreats".  I couldn't even get approval to go to a conference that would have helped my work immensely.  I was further annoyed that "profit sharing" that would emerge as a match in 401k never did.  I was in a position to know that we were very profitable.  I don't like companies that mislead about benefits.  Raises for rank and file were minuscule (<2%) yet management routinely got at least 5% plus bonuses.   The last straw (I am sooo patient) was when they built a training room very near us, which was fine.  It was the lunchroom they built onto it that was the problem.  No doors, I could lean in my chair and see the steamer trays, the bar.  To get to the restroom, the path was between the food table and the tables of people eating it.   We could always smell whatever the exec chef made for whomever was training that day and it was kind of aroma torture.  It's Right There.  But NOT FOR YOU.  And, what had been a quiet work area became Break Central with the trainees having apparently no clue that people in cubes Are Working.   I don't blame the visitors.   Insensitive blokes didn't deserve me.

I don't stick around somewhere that doesn't care about the people that get the real work done.  I had one foot out of my current employer that has too many anti-employee policies, then I got sick.  The idea of returning there is repugnant.  I don't have to stay but I will have to go back.   I have 7 more years until retirement and not at all sure I want to waste it on them.


----------



## geekette

am1 said:


> Not meant to be callous or naive at all.  Based on this thread and others and no matter how she thinks her attitude comes across to clients it is not good for the company.  Remember we are only getting one side.  I would not want someone working just for a paycheck.  I want someone that is happy to come to work, learn and grow.
> 
> A lot of times people are better off with early retirement or a change in careers.


Survey all the people you know that work for someone else.  Ask how many would work if they didn't need a paycheck.  Ask how many are actually valued by their employers.  Ask if anyone has been satisfied by salary increases the past decade.   Ask how many have the opportunity to learn and grow.   

Does anyone get training any more??  I realize my field is different, but even in tech, some companies refuse to pay for training yet will pound you if something goes wrong.  I do the best I can but if I am not given an opportunity to learn from people already implementing it, it's hard to see how it is My Fault that something goes wrong.  it's tech. crap goes wrong even when experts implement.  I will not use my off hours as study to further my employer's mission, especially when there is no reward for me, just loss of My Time.  What would be my motivation, when I know that no matter how much I try to study things can and will go wrong and I will be punished?  

I don't think you understand her job or the realities of her region.  Just because YOU think she should retire early or change careers doesn't make it reasonable, feasible nor even warranted.  I am also a bit annoyed that you have decided how she presents to clients based on posts here!!   Better to vent here to have it unloaded.  You aren't there, you have no idea what level of professionalism she exhibits.   And I would say that the issues she's dealing with are problems with the company and conduct of other employees, not a mess of her own making.  I guess you missed things thru time about how she has been treated.  This company isn't interested in growing happy employees, it sounds more like they barely tolerate having employees at all.  You think she should ask for more spanking and disrespect and be grateful when she gets it??    That's loony.  Good luck with growing happy employees that way.

If a company wants happy employees, eager to get to work each day, then they need to provide an environment that inspires and rewards that.  Like WalnutBaron describes, It Matters.   

It's great that you think everyone should be happy and fulfilled on the job.  That is damned rare.  Most of us are squeezed squeezed squeezed, tiny raises (if there is a raise), cut backs in training, demands to donate your off hours time, time off blackouts at major holidays (ours was over this past Christmas/New Year holiday), etc.  I am a human being First, an employee somewhere down the line.  I do not check my humanity at the door no matter how much my employer would rather have robots.


----------



## geekette

ace2000 said:


> Based on a hunch, my guess is the OP is hoping to get fired.  It should be noted that 1099 employees do not pay into unemployment, so you probably will not be eligible for that, if a switch in status occurs.
> 
> Good luck, Mary Ann.  I hope it all works out in the end.


hoping to get fired?  I don't think you have followed this thread!


----------



## geekette

Chrispee said:


> When I first started working with the company I’ve been with for the past 15 years, I had a boss who told me: “Always make sure there’s at least one important thing at work that only you know how to do”.


that's horrible.

and sadly true.

we are just bodies replaceable by other bodies.


----------



## geekette

dsmrp said:


> hmm, the re-writing of your job description is, IMO, something to be very wary of.


Yes, smells like a trap.

That she was asked directly how she felt about age discrimination "now" was a trap, too.


----------



## geekette

sue1947 said:


> I agree with the above.  They may split the job with some additions from other areas, have you train the other person and then lay you off/fire you with the excuse that they are eliminating the position and try to avoid any implication of age discrimination.   ...



YES.  The "you train em" part is suspect and I'm sure it's coming.


----------



## Steve Fatula

I have little doubt age discrimination is alive and well. Seen it many times. I think many times it's more getting rid of the older one to pay a new person much less, at least in the cases I have seen. Of course, they were worth a lot less too! Depends on the field I suspect. I would venture to say if I applied for an IT job at my age they would in many cases write me off immediately. What they don't know though is all I have done and just how much I know about technology! I generally help the younger ones with tech! Only limited time in an interview. Commercials, tv shows, etc always seem to present older folks as techno-challenged. Which can be the case, but not always. 

Sorry to hear about the troubles, hope it works out.


----------



## geekette

Hang tough.  You have a new profile pic and therefore New Energy!

I like to believe that people eventually get what they deserve.  Immature jerk will get his.


----------



## Panina

mpumilia said:


> Wait- what? My attitude is A1 with the clients! In fact, most of the clients (many of whom are doctors or their staff) come to our facility for their own personal tests. And- guess who they ask to visit when they are there? Yours truly! I do not put on a negative face to the clients- ever! I am always professional and sincere and warm. It is not my nature to be otherwise. If you really knew me- you would get it. If this weren't true, I would have never lasted at this job or ANY of the jobs I have had all these years.
> 
> In fact, one client just told me this week she loves working with me as opposed to our competitors' rep.
> 
> And- yeah- I would love to be happy to come to work everyday. The one thing I am good with at work is being out of the office and talking and interacting with our clients.


Mpumilia, since I have been on tug I have loved your attitude.  To me, you have always been inviting and helpful.  I have no doubt that is how you are at work.

Life will take you where you need to go. Unfortunately, you cannot control this horrible situation. You can only control how you react to it.  Please take care of yourself.  All this stress can make you sick.


----------



## Sugarcubesea

I’ve been thinking of you the past few weeks and I hate that companies want to get rid of the mature worker.    Just keep being you and stay true to yourself and trust that things will work out the way they are supposed to.  My CFO has been trying to get rid of me since day one and I just made myself indispensable and now I’m hitting 3 years at this company.  I hope things work out.


----------



## WinniWoman

geekette said:


> Outstanding.
> 
> Just a few years ago, I left a job I loved because the CEO whose wacky ideas in the middle of the night I made into reality in daylight never bothered to have a conversation with me.   We were under 200 employees, I was reasonably important, in charge of use and visualization of data with an Always Fresh mandate.  It was a 24/7 job and I had no backup, there was no one that did what I did there, and only a few that could even understand what I built.
> 
> I was fed up with being the company workhorse while just one level above me, they were flying all over the planet for "retreats".  I couldn't even get approval to go to a conference that would have helped my work immensely.  I was further annoyed that "profit sharing" that would emerge as a match in 401k never did.  I was in a position to know that we were very profitable.  I don't like companies that mislead about benefits.  Raises for rank and file were minuscule (<2%) yet management routinely got at least 5% plus bonuses.   The last straw (I am sooo patient) was when they built a training room very near us, which was fine.  It was the lunchroom they built onto it that was the problem.  No doors, I could lean in my chair and see the steamer trays, the bar.  To get to the restroom, the path was between the food table and the tables of people eating it.   We could always smell whatever the exec chef made for whomever was training that day and it was kind of aroma torture.  It's Right There.  But NOT FOR YOU.  And, what had been a quiet work area became Break Central with the trainees having apparently no clue that people in cubes Are Working.   I don't blame the visitors.   Insensitive blokes didn't deserve me.
> 
> I don't stick around somewhere that doesn't care about the people that get the real work done.  I had one foot out of my current employer that has too many anti-employee policies, then I got sick.  The idea of returning there is repugnant.  I don't have to stay but I will have to go back.   I have 7 more years until retirement and not at all sure I want to waste it on them.




This is right on! I do hope you are feeling better. You have to wonder if all this stress caused your illness. I really think most of these companies want robots despite how they try to spin it. If you have any intelligence or ask questions, you're ignored or out the door.


----------



## WinniWoman

geekette said:


> Survey all the people you know that work for someone else.  Ask how many would work if they didn't need a paycheck.  Ask how many are actually valued by their employers.  Ask if anyone has been satisfied by salary increases the past decade.   Ask how many have the opportunity to learn and grow.
> 
> Does anyone get training any more??  I realize my field is different, but even in tech, some companies refuse to pay for training yet will pound you if something goes wrong.  I do the best I can but if I am not given an opportunity to learn from people already implementing it, it's hard to see how it is My Fault that something goes wrong.  it's tech. crap goes wrong even when experts implement.  I will not use my off hours as study to further my employer's mission, especially when there is no reward for me, just loss of My Time.  What would be my motivation, when I know that no matter how much I try to study things can and will go wrong and I will be punished?
> 
> I don't think you understand her job or the realities of her region.  Just because YOU think she should retire early or change careers doesn't make it reasonable, feasible nor even warranted.  I am also a bit annoyed that you have decided how she presents to clients based on posts here!!   Better to vent here to have it unloaded.  You aren't there, you have no idea what level of professionalism she exhibits.   And I would say that the issues she's dealing with are problems with the company and conduct of other employees, not a mess of her own making.  I guess you missed things thru time about how she has been treated.  This company isn't interested in growing happy employees, it sounds more like they barely tolerate having employees at all.  You think she should ask for more spanking and disrespect and be grateful when she gets it??    That's loony.  Good luck with growing happy employees that way.
> 
> If a company wants happy employees, eager to get to work each day, then they need to provide an environment that inspires and rewards that.  Like WalnutBaron describes, It Matters.
> 
> It's great that you think everyone should be happy and fulfilled on the job.  That is damned rare.  Most of us are squeezed squeezed squeezed, tiny raises (if there is a raise), cut backs in training, demands to donate your off hours time, time off blackouts at major holidays (ours was over this past Christmas/New Year holiday), etc.  I am a human being First, an employee somewhere down the line.  I do not check my humanity at the door no matter how much my employer would rather have robots.



Yes! Yes! Yes! Exactly!

Just a couple of weeks ago I received a text from the marketing rep for the PET/CT company that supplies our mobile unit. Know her for years, of course. We have done some work together for our facility. Wanted to know if I would be at the meeting she and her supervisor were having with "Idiot Boy" (aka the administrative director) at my job. I told her I knew nothing about the meeting. Meanwhile, "Idiot Boy" keeps telling me how important my position is. That it is a "leadership" position that plays a significant role. Wow- really? So important that you did not include me in that meeting? So important that you have been treating me like s*^$t since you started as director? SMH...

I was hoping this new company acquisition would have been a good change for us because the past management has been horrible.  But now we have gone from bad to worse with them putting this man in charge. I still don't get it.


----------



## WinniWoman

I will say- that marketing reps/sales people get a bad rap sometimes. Sure- it seems we have it easy being out on the road- free of cubicles and a supervisor (and camera) looking over your shoulder every second.

But- try having to spend every single work day displaying happiness and energy, despite the fact that you want to cry or maybe scream or you are dragging/tired or simply just having a bad day. Putting yourself in front of clients all day every day. Having to deal with all types of personalities. Having to figure out what they need or what their motives are or if they are being truthful and what the politics are in a situation. Always having to look and be your best. Can't wing it like you might be able to if you have a desk/cubicle job with little face to face public interaction.

Then- try doing this not only every day but each and every day for YEARS on end. You have to have the right temperament and stamina. And you have to deal with the repetition of it all and the accountability to your superiors for a lot of what is not in your control- all the intangibles.

Just a few weeks ago I was in a doctor/clients office and I met the new front desk person. First thing she commented- in a positive way- is that I have "way too much energy". I was just back there the other day and found out she quit. I guess she didn't have the energy.

This said, I could never stay inside all day in a place like ours. I don't know how my coworkers do it. Then again the turnover is incredibly high so I guess they don't.


----------



## ace2000

geekette said:


> hoping to get fired?  I don't think you have followed this thread!



Perhaps you haven't been following the thread.  What in this thread indicates to you otherwise?  Look at post #1 where she mentions that she wanted to be fired or have quit by April 1st.  Look at several of the other posts.  Has the OP directly asked her supervisor if there is a problem?  Has she asked for feedback on how she can better do her job?  It seems there have been several examples of communication coming from the other direction, mentioned in the thread.  Communication is a two-way street.

The OP needs to figure out if the job is worth the plusses and benefits or not.  If not, her best option may be to move on.  She's the only one that can figure that out.  Otherwise, just make the best of the current situation, meet the expectations, and strive to do her best to resolve any differences she might have with her supervisor - which appear to be very "personal" in nature, based off the comments here.  As I mentioned in a previous post, many times, the things we get frustrated about in the workplace, appear to be nothing when looked at in hindsight.


----------



## WinniWoman

ace2000 said:


> Perhaps you haven't been following the thread.  What in this thread indicates to you otherwise?  Look at post #1 where she mentions that she wanted to be fired or have quit by April 1st.  Look at several of the other posts.  Has the OP directly asked her supervisor if there is a problem?  Has she asked for feedback on how she can better do her job?  It seems there have been several examples of communication coming from the other direction, mentioned in the thread.  Communication is a two-way street.
> 
> The OP needs to figure out if the job is worth the plusses and benefits or not.  If not, her best option may be to move on.  She's the only one that can figure that out.  Otherwise, just make the best of the current situation, meet the expectations, and strive to do her best to resolve any differences she might have with her supervisor - which appear to be very "personal" in nature, based off the comments here.  As I mentioned in a previous post, many times, the things we get frustrated about in the workplace, appear to be nothing when looked at in hindsight.




Here's the thing- I have got nothing but compliments from the Hatchett Man- IN WRITING- in emails- when I have completed the projects he gave me. He has had no issues with my work! That is the crazy thing. There has been plenty of back and forth between us and with the COO. And with HR. We just had another meeting and I told him and the COO I didn't want to continue to rehash everything- though the Hatchett Man still got defensive in that meeting. I told them I just want to do my job and hopefully everything will be ok going forward.

I was fine with him being supervisor when I found out initially- though I thought it bizarre-until he attacked me on day one and started to harass me for no good reason that was evident. He was mad because I got annoyed about something in front of two coworkers with him there. That is what he wrote me up for. And because I was a bit resistant to a project that he wanted competed in an unrealistic time frame and that I felt could be done in another more efficient manner- he didn't like that. I still did the project HIS WAY, and I got it done on time, but I questioned him on it and made suggestions for alternatives- heaven forbid.

I am ok with just moving back my "quit" date and trying to make this work. My resignation is written up already just in case. Since my HR conversation he has been much more civil and careful when speaking with me. I am always pleasant in dealing with him. If things stay normal I will stay. I am trying hard because my husband's employer is also making a lot of changes and it would be bad for both of us to be out of work at this stage of the game. But- if things get worse, than I will have to get out if they don't fire me first. I will not get physically ill or into a deep depression over it.

In fact, he just gave me something to bring to a doctor halfway across the county, which is going to disrupt my whole afternoon. I, of course, said no problem- I will get it there. I asked for a confirmation of which office the doc would be at, as he has a couple of locations, and he said to me "you know- the one that I got thrown out of!".

You can't make this stuff up.....

Addition: I ask him if he knows how long the doctors' office is opened today. He tells me they are opened late. I think to myself that seems odd for a Friday for this group. So I call the office and they tell me they are closing in 15 minutes! No way can I make it there in that time.

So there you have it- this is what I am dealing with....


----------



## geekette

Mary Ann, I had a thought for you.  What if this guy is being put in a position of visibility to finally foul up big and be fired??   Perhaps he is the target and not you, but he doesn't know it.  

I guess I was thinking of past jerks I've worked for and with, how some places demanded there be highly visible "issues" so the optics for the larger employee audience would make his firing seem obviously justifiable. Some HRs are embarrassingly weak in this at-will state.   Other times I got to be at the decision table where it was agreed, "Let him hang himself".   

Hang tough, sweetie.  Office bs is a great reason to not want to be in the office.  Some days I would really like a road job but it is hard to be Always On face of the company.  I would always rather hide behind the scenes and quietly do my job.


----------



## Steve Fatula

geekette said:


> Hang tough, sweetie.  Office bs is a great reason to not want to be in the office.  Some days I would really like a road job but it is hard to be Always On face of the company.  I would always rather hide behind the scenes and quietly do my job.



Couldn't agree more, hated office politics. That's why the last 20 some years I worked I worked for me! Got treated so much better! Can't do that for most jobs though of course.


----------



## VacationForever

While we have been retired for 2 years, financially I feel that I should work for another 5 to 7 years.  Each time I think about bad bosses and colleagues, I keep pushing the thought of going back to work to the back of my mind.


----------



## Steve Fatula

VacationForever said:


> While we have been retired for 2 years, financially I feel that I should work for another 5 to 7 years.  Each time I think about bad bosses and colleagues, I keep pushing the thought of going back to work to the back of my mind.



Yeah, think long and hard! Run the numbers, don't believe the extremists that say you need many millions to retire. That can be true depending on lifestyle or area I suppose, but, usually they go way overboard.


----------



## VacationForever

Steve Fatula said:


> Yeah, think long and hard! Run the numbers, don't believe the extremists that say you need many millions to retire. That can be true depending on lifestyle or area I suppose, but, usually they go way overboard.


Our money manager told us that I do not have to go back to work, unless I want to.  I am still supporting my adult son, probably for another 3 years or so.  He is going back for a second Bachelors degree as he has been unable to find work.  He did work for 5 plus years after his first degree. I am thinking that my skills are still marketable and can go back to work.


----------



## WinniWoman

So- the latest is the boss tells me again they are hiring another marketing rep (supposedly in addition to me) and I ask him what exactly he/she is going to be doing. He doesn't answer but says "he" (the new rep) is going to be looking at all our marketing. Then he catches himself and says - it is a "he" and he is a 1099 and the company only hires 1099 marketing reps. He says he is not sure if he is going to hire him or not. He told me a lot of changes are coming for the facility and to be prepared- he is just letting me know. They only use 1099 marketing reps.

So I do not know if this new guy already works for the compnay (maybe at another facility) or if he would be a new 1099 contract.

I told him the COO mentioned to me about being a 1099 employee back int he Fall when she interviewed me.
I said I noticed I didn't see any marketing reps listed on the other facilities websites- with the exception that there was a Marketing Director listed for 2 PA sites- the same person. He tells me she is also a manager as well- though I saw there is a Director of Operations for both those sites on the web page.

Anyway- there is no way there is enough territory for two reps. But- in the event they offer me a 1099 position- I am not sure I would take it. This is a whole 'nother ball of wax...There's the contract- what will be in it? I assume they have a standard type contract- maybe they would tweak it-who knows?- always benefits the employer. Would have to pay my own taxes- a lot of taxes - otherwise if it didn't save the employer money- why would they do it? Then there is the issue of use of my car and gas, I assume I would have a home office maybe, PTO time, health insurance. If they terminate the contract- no unemployment insurance.

Unlike now- if I do not accept- I could file an unemployment claim.

On the other hand - the one good thing would be the independence- maybe- if there really is any.

BTW- a manager for a large doctor group told me the other day that she told the new CEO of our company how helpful I was and so on. (I had set up a meeting for the new CEO and the idiot boss I have to meet with one of the docs there per his request) Not that this matters in the long run.


----------



## VacationForever

Most companies that use 1099 contractors, including sales reps, are running foul of the law.  To be a true independent contractor, the company cannot tell them what to do, how to do the job and how to manage their time.  If audited and found to violate the rules of employees vs. 1099, these companies are fined and have to go back and pay unemployment taxes, workers compensation and make these contractors employees.

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-defined

Anyway, back to your post.  It is certainly a dilemma whether to not accept the switch and then claim unemployment vs accepting it.  Do you know if any of the places that you visit have openings for marketing reps?  Those are usually a great avenue to get employment.  They already know how good you are, how energized etc and they know who they are hiring as opposed to someone unknown to them who come in for an interview.


----------



## geist1223

Ditto with what VacationForever said. There are many companies that violate the employment and tax laws concerning employee/independent contractors. The company will call the person an independent contractor but then set all sorts of rules, who provides the work space/equipment, hours, etc, etc. To be a true independent contractor the company retains you to accomplish a goal/mission. How, when, where, etc you decide. I have even seen the Federal Government violate the rules regarding independent contractors.


----------



## WinniWoman

VacationForever said:


> Most companies that use 1099 contractors, including sales reps, are running foul of the law.  To be a true independent contractor, the company cannot tell them what to do, how to do the job and how to manage their time.  If audited and found to violate the rules of employees vs. 1099, these companies are fined and have to go back and pay unemployment taxes, workers compensation and make these contractors employees.
> 
> https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-defined
> 
> Anyway, back to your post.  It is certainly a dilemma whether to not accept the switch and then claim unemployment vs accepting it.  Do you know if any of the places that you visit have openings for marketing reps?  Those are usually a great avenue to get employment.  They already know how good you are, how energized etc and they know who they are hiring as opposed to someone unknown to them who come in for an interview.



Yes- right, I know. As for our clients- no- no need for marketing reps. These are doctors offices- they barely can pay for their staff as it is. The larger groups don't even have them- except one ginormous one here that doesn't allow marketing reps in to see their docs- they keep everything internal- and I would never work for them as they have a bad repudiation with employees and patients.

The other thing- knowing what I know after being in the health care industry all these years- I would never work for a doctors' office. In fact- I have always said this will be my last job. At least my last full time job.


----------



## DaveNV

Maybe it's not just your company?  I work for a hospital system that recently went through a major restructuring and software upgrade. They hired many new positions in the process. They also brought on many contracted temporary positions. The contractors knew their positions would be eliminated at some point.

About two months ago they pulled the plug on all those temporary positions, and also eliminated a number of the staff positions they'd hired for, in an attempt to streamline the company.  Two other hospital systems around here have already done, or are in process of doing similar things.  Huge reductions in force, centralizing positions, and hiring contracted people to fulfill specific projects. It's a lot of stress all over.  I'm glad I can see the light at the end of my own employment tunnel.  (Come on, Summer 2019!)

I feel your pain, Mary Ann, and understand the stress of not knowing what the bottom line will be with your employer.  I know you have a long term goal of retiring on your own terms.  I hope you can hang on to things the way you want them to be, until it's time to say goodbye to them.  Good luck!

Dave


----------



## pedro47

In the future, I feel more & more companies will hire more temporary employees and independent contractor employees to avoid paying benefits liked sick & annual leaves and pension.
These employees will also not be eligible to participate in the company hospitalization plan, the company insurance plan, the company stock plan and they will not eligible to participate in the company family leave plan. This is the end of my rant.


----------



## am1

pedro47 said:


> In the future, I feel more & more companies will hire more temporary employees and independent contractor employees to avoid paying benefits liked sick & annual leaves and pension.
> These employees will also not be eligible to participate in the company hospitalization plan, the company insurance plan, the company stock plan and they will not eligible to participate in the company family leave plan. This is the end of my rant.



They will only be able to hire temporary employees if people allow them to.  If no one qualified applies then they would have to go in a different direction.  

Its possible in 2018 that full time employees can be more of a burden then an asset.


----------



## clifffaith

Steve Fatula said:


> Couldn't agree more, hated office politics. That's why the last 20 some years I worked I worked for me! Got treated so much better! Can't do that for most jobs though of course.



We had a Worldmark update in Palm Springs on Tuesday. For some reason salesperson thought I should be interested in the guy from Hilton that is now in charge of Wyndham. First and foremost we are Worldmark and Wyndham is a dirty word in our book, but I left the corporate world thirty years ago and had no interest then in who was top dog. Finally told her we had no interest in him or in Wyndham's new name, and by the way we are now 1.75 hours in to our "guaranteed" one hour update so let's wrap it up.


----------



## DaveNV

clifffaith said:


> We had a Worldmark update in Palm Springs on Tuesday. For some reason salesperson thought I should be interested in the guy from Hilton that is now in charge of Wyndham. First and foremost we are Worldmark and Wyndham is a dirty word in our book, but I left the corporate world thirty years ago and had no interest then in who was top dog. Finally told her we had no interest in him or in Wyndham's new name, and by the way we are now 1.75 hours in to our "guaranteed" one hour update so let's wrap it up.



Faith, is this in the right forum?  Seems like it doesn't fit the discussion?

Dave


----------



## WinniWoman

pedro47 said:


> In the future, I feel more & more companies will hire more temporary employees and independent contractor employees to avoid paying benefits liked sick & annual leaves and pension.
> These employees will also not be eligible to participate in the company hospitalization plan, the company insurance plan, the company stock plan and they will not eligible to participate in the company family leave plan. This is the end of my rant.




Exactly what my former employer did for many years- only part-time and per diem workers as new hires- at lower wages. The problem is that they never lasted and never really got to really know the jobs- which actually were very involved and complicated. Made a lot of mistakes and so forth.

We have so many employees working there that I don't even know who they all are anymore. The new boss did make a few of them full timers now to have some consistency at the front desk- duh!


----------



## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> They will only be able to hire temporary employees if people allow them to.  If no one qualified applies then they would have to go in a different direction.
> 
> Its possible in 2018 that full time employees can be more of a burden then an asset.




I do think in the next 10 years, most- or at least a lot- of jobs are going to be eliminated. It's a new dawn. Get the young ones prepared!


----------



## WinniWoman

DaveNW said:


> Maybe it's not just your company?  I work for a hospital system that recently went through a major restructuring and software upgrade. They hired many new positions in the process. They also brought on many contracted temporary positions. The contractors knew their positions would be eliminated at some point.
> 
> About two months ago they pulled the plug on all those temporary positions, and also eliminated a number of the staff positions they'd hired for, in an attempt to streamline the company.  Two other hospital systems around here have already done, or are in process of doing similar things.  Huge reductions in force, centralizing positions, and hiring contracted people to fulfill specific projects. It's a lot of stress all over.  I'm glad I can see the light at the end of my own employment tunnel.  (Come on, Summer 2019!)
> 
> I feel your pain, Mary Ann, and understand the stress of not knowing what the bottom line will be with your employer.  I know you have a long term goal of retiring on your own terms.  I hope you can hang on to things the way you want them to be, until it's time to say goodbye to them.  Good luck!
> 
> Dave




Thanks, Dave. You get the health care industry. So much going on. We are also semi-affiliated with a hospital which just became affiliated with yet another NYC hospital- a change from another one.. It's so crazy! You can't keep up. 

I think at some point down the line- a few years from now- things might go back to the way they were before all this merging crap. Something definitely has to change in health care in this country for sure.

I had 3 more years to work to age 65, but that is not going to happen it looks like. Heck- it doesn't look like I will make it to my 62nd birthday THIS June! I am just going to go with the flow at this point. 

Looks like my choice will soon be "Independent" Contractor or Unemployment. I wonder if I choose the latter if they will offer severence and at least payment of my PTO time- which I haven't used any so far this year.


----------



## DaveNV

mpumilia said:


> Thanks, Dave. You get the health care industry. So much going on. We are also semi-affiliated with a hospital which just became affiliated with yet another NYC hospital- a change from another one.. It's so crazy! You can't keep up.
> 
> I think at some point down the line- a few years from now- things might go back to the way they were before all this merging crap. Something definitely has to change in health care in this country for sure.
> 
> I had 3 more years to work to age 65, but that is not going to happen it looks like. Heck- it doesn't look like I will make it to my 62nd birthday THIS June! I am just going to go with the flow at this point.
> 
> Looks like my choice will soon be "Independent" Contractor or Unemployment. I wonder if I choose the latter if they will offer severence and at least payment of my PTO time- which I haven't used any so far this year.




Well, to play devil's advocate - would being a contractor be "that" bad?  I don't know the details, obviously, but could you make it fit your life?

In the case of my hospital, the changes over the last ten years are so dramatic, it's almost like working for a different organization.  Some of the changes are great. Others, not so much.  

Dave


----------



## WinniWoman

DaveNW said:


> Well, to play devil's advocate - would being a contractor be "that" bad?  I don't know the details, obviously, but could you make it fit your life?
> 
> In the case of my hospital, the changes over the last ten years are so dramatic, it's almost like working for a different organization.  Some of the changes are great. Others, not so much.
> 
> Dave




I am not sure. It would depend on how the contract is written. 

The worst for me would be the payment of all the taxes- they would have to pay me a lot more money to make up for the taxes they aren't paying. All the record keeping and such.

And- how independent would I be? And- then there is the question of this other person doing the same job which makes no sense.


----------



## DaveNV

mpumilia said:


> I am not sure. It would depend on how the contract is written.
> 
> The worst for me would be the payment of all the taxes- they would have to pay me a lot more money to make up for the taxes they aren't paying. All the record keeping and such.
> 
> And- how independent would I be? And- then there is the question of this other person doing the same job which makes no sense.



Lots of unanswered questions.  Is there anyone there in a similar position now who is contracted and who would give you candid answers?  You might be able to get a head start on the pros and cons.

Dave


----------



## Talent312

[Nevermind.]


----------



## Steve Fatula

VacationForever said:


> Most companies that use 1099 contractors, including sales reps, are running foul of the law.  To be a true independent contractor, the company cannot tell them what to do, how to do the job and how to manage their time.  If audited and found to violate the rules of employees vs. 1099, these companies are fined and have to go back and pay unemployment taxes, workers compensation and make these contractors employees.



As a 1099 contractor for 30 years or so, this is spot on. Most places I worked mostly were compliant, so, if I wanted to work starting at 4pm, I could as an example, but some did not.


----------



## Kel

I would like to point out a couple of red flags in your original post:

*1.         Finally got to a point where I could coast a little bit. *

            This is not a good statement for an employee of any age.  You should be giving 100% everyday no matter what your age.

*2.         he blocks me from our friendship on Facebook.*

            Really?  Why would you even care about this?  I hope you didn’t share how unhappy you are with your job on Facebook.  And, you seem chatty with people here that you don’t really know so I hope you didn’t mention the Timeshare User Group Lounge to him or any other co-workers.  This lengthy thread would be good for the company, but not for you.

*3.         he has his “pets”*

Managers usually have a trusted right hand person.  Not a pet.

*4.         I get annoyed with him- he writes me up immediately.*

            Don’t show annoyance and he won’t write you up.

*5.         I demanded the contact info for the human resource person and spoke to her at length about age discrimination and harassment and also about this man's past*

            This man’s past?  Really? 

6.         *I want to be out by April 1st one way or another. Or at least give notice by then or get fired by then.*

            It’s April 14 - Sounds like you still have a job.  Just talk?

You need to put your head down and do the job you are asked to do or quit.  I’m a 60 year old woman and I don’t get your attitude of coasting on the job.  You need to stop being the squeaky wheel and just do the work.  It’s simple.


----------



## SmithOp

Steve Fatula said:


> As a 1099 contractor for 30 years or so, this is spot on. Most places I worked mostly were compliant, so, if I wanted to work starting at 4pm, I could as an example, but some did not.



I was a salaried W-2 employee that was offered early retirement with a generous compensation “package”.  I was used to working 60 hour weeks in cubicle land. I accepted.  

A year later they called me back and offered a 1099 contract to transition a system I had specific knowledge of, the client asked for me.  I took the offer with the stipulation I would work from home and only go in the office for client-facing meetings, 40 hrs per week.  I enjoyed it, shut off my computer and didn’t respond to emails or phone calls after 4:30pm.  It was a year contract and I completed it, best year working for them.  I made them pay me 20% more than my salary to cover SE taxes.  There wasn’t much record keeping necessary, just a Sched C on my taxes with some mileage for meetings, home office, and a few supplies.  It was nice to add an extra high income year to my SS average.

I felt the same as op the last few years but I kept quiet and stuck it out while others left in a blaze of glory burning bridges.  None of them were called back as 1099.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## WinniWoman

DaveNW said:


> Lots of unanswered questions.  Is there anyone there in a similar position now who is contracted and who would give you candid answers?  You might be able to get a head start on the pros and cons.
> 
> Dave




Nope- I'm it here at this facility. The rest of the staff is either front desk, administrative support or radiology techs or doctors. I'm going to make a list of pros and cons and just get ready so I know what I'm doing in the event it is offered- provided I am not fired.


----------



## WinniWoman

Kel said:


> I would like to point out a couple of red flags in your original post:
> 
> *1.         Finally got to a point where I could coast a little bit. *
> 
> This is not a good statement for an employee of any age.  You should be giving 100% everyday no matter what your age.
> 
> *2.         he blocks me from our friendship on Facebook.*
> 
> Really?  Why would you even care about this?  I hope you didn’t share how unhappy you are with your job on Facebook.  And, you seem chatty with people here that you don’t really know so I hope you didn’t mention the Timeshare User Group Lounge to him or any other co-workers.  This lengthy thread would be good for the company, but not for you.
> 
> *3.         he has his “pets”*
> 
> Managers usually have a trusted right hand person.  Not a pet.
> 
> *4.         I get annoyed with him- he writes me up immediately.*
> 
> Don’t show annoyance and he won’t write you up.
> 
> *5.         I demanded the contact info for the human resource person and spoke to her at length about age discrimination and harassment and also about this man's past*
> 
> This man’s past?  Really?
> 
> 6.         *I want to be out by April 1st one way or another. Or at least give notice by then or get fired by then.*
> 
> It’s April 14 - Sounds like you still have a job.  Just talk?
> 
> You need to put your head down and do the job you are asked to do or quit.  I’m a 60 year old woman and I don’t get your attitude of coasting on the job.  You need to stop being the squeaky wheel and just do the work.  It’s simple.



I don't think you really are understanding the entire picture, but if you think you are- well than- ok. Appreciate your input.

When I used the word "coast"- I meant not having to deal with extreme stress or harassment or BS frankly. I do my best every day. I am no slug. If I didn't I would have been gone long ago. Just because I don't want to be abused and jump through hoops like in a dog and pony show doesn't mean I don't care about doing a decent job. I am no robot.

Yes- I am "chatty"- that is what I do for a living. No keeping my head down in this job. I have to look up- at people- in the eye every single day and open my mouth and always be happy- whether I really am or not. And talk, talk, talk and listen, listen, listen. One thing about me that can hurt me is that I am an open book- so I always have to work on that and catch myself. Very hard when you are an honest person and not secretive. I'm flawed- what can I say?

One thing- I am brave and not afraid of my own shadow like some people might be. Don't like the idea of losing a salary but love the idea of not working in these kinds of environments. If you like keeping your head down every single day of your life and working the assembly line - great! Not me! I need freedom and truth and honestly and respect with the people I work for and with.

By posting some of this I was trying to set the background/timeline of the events that lead to this unfortunate situation. And- by having a quit date it helped me to cope with what was going on- if things did not improve - kind of a mental game with myself- a way out. But after standing up for myself, things DID get better- at least for now. So I didn't quit- just moved the date back a few times as long as I can work without being bullied, I stay. If they let me go- so be it. And yes- the man's past work- with me- on the same job- including him getting thrown out of one of our doctor client's offices- is definitely relevant as far as I am concerned.

Fact is- this was all going to happen- the 1099 thing or the firing- no matter what I did or said. I knew this back in the Fall- just didn't expect this 'treatment" by the newly appointed boss, though I thought something was up when- during the holidays at the end of the year- before he officially became the boss- he hugged me and said to me- "have a nice life". This stuck with me as I thought it an odd thing to say. 

As far as being annoyed- yes- I learned that lesson and will go outside and scream if I have to- but actually now I don't have to -I just laugh to myself and accept it. I keep smiling.

And as for his "pet"- I get it. It is just that he tossed a woman who was loyal to the company for 14 years for this younger person who was just there 2 years or so- a very good and smart person- don't get me wrong.

The Facebook thing- well he told me all these years I was the only person in the company he ever friended on FB- then he becomes director and immediately blocks me- not just unfriends me- but BLOCKS me. Very telling. I get he is the boss and might not want to associate with any employees on FB- but that was extreme- the blocking part. And- considering he is hiring people from the same family as his right hand person- that she is going to be overseeing- says something about him. In most companies this is a "no no".

I don't mention anything to him of a personal nature now that I am in this situation. In terms of my coworkers- I keep everything fairly vague.

I am confident in myself- just surprised at how this all was handled. But I suppose I shouldn't be in this dog eat dog work world.


----------



## DaveNV

mpumilia said:


> The Facebook thing- well he told me all these years I was the only person in the company he ever friended on FB- then he becomes director and immediately blocks me- not just unfriends me- but BLOCKS me. Very telling. I get he is the boss and might not want to associate with any employees on FB- but that was extreme- the blocking part. And- considering he is hiring people from the same family as his right hand person- that she is going to be overseeing- says something about him. In most companies this is a "no no".
> 
> I don't mention anything to him of a personal nature now that I am in this situation. In terms of my coworkers- I keep everything fairly vague.



Had a similar thing at my employer.  Someone who was a good friend to a lot of "average" employees and coworkers was promoted into a position as their Manager.  (It wasn't politics - she applied for the new position, and was the right selectee.)  She is a very nice person and is still a friend to me, both on and offline.  We work in different areas of the same department.  But anyone who was her FB friend that she now directly supervises was blocked.  She said it was easier for them to not have to worry what they were posting, and it made things easier all the way around.  We both agree posting work-related things on FB is never a good idea anyway.  I make the joke that FB is only good for posting pictures of my pets, recipes and cat videos.

Thing is, word gets around, and even if you were blocked from seeing things they post, chances are you are both FB friends with someone who can see those posts.  Replies and such the mutual person makes may show up for you anyway. 

Dave


----------



## WinniWoman

DaveNW said:


> Had a similar thing at my employer.  Someone who was a good friend to a lot of "average" employees and coworkers was promoted into a position as their Manager.  (It wasn't politics - she applied for the new position, and was the right selectee.)  She is a very nice person and is still a friend to me, both on and offline.  We work in different areas of the same department.  But anyone who was her FB friend that she now directly supervises was blocked.  She said it was easier for them to not have to worry what they were posting, and it made things easier all the way around.  We both agree posting work-related things on FB is never a good idea anyway.  I make the joke that FB is only good for posting pictures of my pets, recipes and cat videos.
> 
> Thing is, word gets around, and even if you were blocked from seeing things they post, chances are you are both FB friends with someone who can see those posts.  Replies and such the mutual person makes may show up for you anyway.
> 
> Dave




Oh- yes for sure. I do not post anything our mutual friends could relay to him- just vague posts one would have to make assumptions on. I kind of post generalization type memes and such. Sure- they can be taken as implicating my own job or just everyone's jobs in general.

Anyway- I unfriended some of the mutual friends and the ones related to them. And- I definitely blocked him as well. LOL!


----------



## DaveNV

mpumilia said:


> Oh- yes for sure. I do not post anything our mutual friends could relay to him- just vague posts one would have to make assumptions on. I kind of post generalization type memes and such. Sure- they can be taken as implicating my own job or just everyone's jobs in general.
> 
> Anyway- I unfriended some of the mutual friends and the ones related to them. And- I definitely blocked him as well. LOL!



I have a coworker and friend who is a lot less discreet.  If he gets into any kind of "situation" at work, whether it's an argument, a task assignment, or anything that he doesn't think is right, I can just about guarantee there will be some sort of passive-aggressive snide comment or meme posted that day (sometime within minutes) on his Facebook page.  His comments are obscure enough that all his friends rush to ask what had happened, or did his Manager try to screw him over again, and such.  Sometimes he explains his snarky comments, and sometimes he blows it off, saying they wouldn't understand because they don't work where he does. (Drives me crazy when he does that!)  But it always results in somebody saying he's the poor victim, and they don't understand how good a worker he is, and so forth.  That kind of pity party stuff drives me up the wall.

He tends to be a contrarian anyway, and thinks everything that he disagrees with is a conspiracy to somehow "do him wrong."  I've told him many times he needs to stop doing that sort of thing, and he defends it, saying, "It's my Facebook page, I'll post what I want."  I just shrug and say, "Ok, whatever.  It's your future."  I'm honestly surprised he still works there.  In the back of my head I'm telling myself to stay back and don't get sucked into his stuff.  (Coincidentally, he works for the Manager I mentioned previously. That may be part of the FB blocking she did.)

Definitely one of those "Not my circus, not my monkeys" kind of thing. 

Dave


----------



## VacationForever

mpumilia said:


> The Facebook thing- well he told me all these years I was the only person in the company he ever friended on FB- then he becomes director and immediately blocks me- not just unfriends me- but BLOCKS me. Very telling. I get he is the boss and might not want to associate with any employees on FB- but that was extreme- the blocking part. And- considering he is hiring people from the same family as his right hand person- that she is going to be overseeing- says something about him. In most companies this is a "no no".



I want to jump in here and clarify one thing for everyone reading here.  Managers must not be friends with any subordinate on social media.  There is whole legal thing around it.  It is nothing personal.  As managers, this is drummed into everyone's head that it is a REALLY BAD IDEA to read anything on a subordinate's post and inadvertently use it to cause any sort of bias or use it as evidence against the staff.

You can google it.  I just randomly pick one article for you to read:
https://maximizesocialbusiness.com/...lace-5-reasons-to-not-friend-co-workers-9348/


----------



## DaveNV

VacationForever said:


> Managers must be friends with any subordinate on social media.  There is whole legal thing around it.  It is nothing personal.



I think you meant to type "must NOT be friends" ?

Dave


----------



## WinniWoman

DaveNW said:


> I have a coworker and friend who is a lot less discreet.  If he gets into any kind of "situation" at work, whether it's an argument, a task assignment, or anything that he doesn't think is right, I can just about guarantee there will be some sort of passive-aggressive snide comment or meme posted that day (sometime within minutes) on his Facebook page.  His comments are obscure enough that all his friends rush to ask what had happened, or did his Manager try to screw him over again, and such.  Sometimes he explains his snarky comments, and sometimes he blows it off, saying they wouldn't understand because they don't work where he does. (Drives me crazy when he does that!)  But it always results in somebody saying he's the poor victim, and they don't understand how good a worker he is, and so forth.  That kind of pity party stuff drives me up the wall.
> 
> He tends to be a contrarian anyway, and thinks everything that he disagrees with is a conspiracy to somehow "do him wrong."  I've told him many times he needs to stop doing that sort of thing, and he defends it, saying, "It's my Facebook page, I'll post what I want."  I just shrug and say, "Ok, whatever.  It's your future."  I'm honestly surprised he still works there.  In the back of my head I'm telling myself to stay back and don't get sucked into his stuff.  (Coincidentally, he works for the Manager I mentioned previously. That may be part of the FB blocking she did.)
> 
> Definitely one of those "Not my circus, not my monkeys" kind of thing.
> 
> Dave




Yes- I get it. My parents always said I was contrarian when I was younger! I guess I just don't fit the standard mold.

I must admit I have been guilty of that on occasion as well. But- I am so past it all now. My main focus is to deal with what comes next- what is best for me at this stage of my life. It might be becoming a 1099 contractor, though my gut tells me "no"; it might be getting fired or resigning. No matter-it's all good. I am keeping a positive outlook and whatever happens happens. I am determined to be happy no matter what. I have no control over it anyway.

Heck- I just want to go on vacation!


----------



## WinniWoman

VacationForever said:


> I want to jump in here and clarify one thing for everyone reading here.  Managers must be friends with any subordinate on social media.  There is whole legal thing around it.  It is nothing personal.  As managers, this is drummed into everyone's head that it is a REALLY BAD IDEA to read anything on a subordinate's post and inadvertently use it to cause any sort of bias or use it as evidence against the staff.
> 
> You can google it.  I just randomly pick one article for you to read:
> https://maximizesocialbusiness.com/...lace-5-reasons-to-not-friend-co-workers-9348/




Agree. Though our last director was friends with several employees on FB and still is.


----------



## VacationForever

DaveNW said:


> I think you meant to type "must NOT be friends" ?
> 
> Dave


Yes. Typo...


----------



## bbodb1

Yet another reminder why FaceBook has been one of the most destructive of influences created by man.  
I spend a couple of class periods trying to warn students about the dangers of FaceBook specifically and social media as a whole but mostly to no avail.  
The best use of FaceBook is non use.


----------



## DaveNV

bbodb1 said:


> Yet another reminder why FaceBook has been one of the most destructive of influences created by man.
> I spend a couple of class periods trying to warn students about the dangers of FaceBook specifically and social media as a whole but mostly to no avail.
> The best use of FaceBook is non use.



A friend's teenage daughter says Facebook is for "old people." The cool kids are using a bunch of other apps that are more in line with their instant gratification life model.  SnapChat comes to mind, where your post disappears after a short time, or Instagram, where you can brag up yourself to the world, and ignore the comments people make in reply.  Or even Twitter, where you can make inane, opinionated statements and type badly in short bursts; punctuation optional.  (All of it way too much work for me to deal with.  There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING I have to say to anyone that is that important! I'll stick to recipes and cat videos.  LOL!)

I heard there is a planned merger between YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook.  They're calling it YouTwitFace.  

Dave


----------



## ace2000

Kel said:


> I would like to point out a couple of red flags in your original post:



Excellent points, and there's no way you or I, or anyone on this thread are going to be able to figure this out.  But, I agree with your assessment that hopefully this thread is not found out by her employer.  This is obviously a personal conflict between her and her boss - that's obvious by the consistent name calling of the boss by the OP in this thread.  And these conflicts generally are won by the boss (obviously not always though).  I'll say it again, the OP appears to want to be fired, IMO.


----------



## Egret1986

bbodb1 said:


> Yet another reminder why FaceBook has been one of the most destructive of influences created by man.
> I spend a couple of class periods trying to warn students about the dangers of FaceBook specifically and social media as a whole but mostly to no avail.
> The best use of FaceBook is non use.



Good job on your attempts.  I'm sure, as you say "mostly to no avail", is true.  But you didn't say, "to no avail."  If you plant the seed in the heads of a couple of them and it sinks in, then you can feel a sense of accomplishment.

I got on FB a few years back.  I have a small rental business and signed up to promote my business.  Connecting with friends and family was a side benefit.  When I was really trying to get started in promoting my business on social media, I was on FB about once every few days.  I know social media is "THE" thing.  I know that failing to promote myself on social media may be limiting my potential.  But I just can't do it anymore.  Being witness to all this stuff is just too much for me.  There's lots of positives to FB, however, that comes with all the actual and potential train wrecks of other people's lives out there for all to view.  You have to take the bad with the good.  I'm just not up for it anymore, personally.  I haven't opened FB in months and the thought to do so is negative for me.  

So I wholeheartedly agree with "The best use of FaceBook is non use." in my ever so humble opinion, of course.


----------



## Egret1986

DaveNW said:


> I heard there is a planned merger between YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook.  They're calling it YouTwitFace.
> 
> Dave



Yepper!  

Though I haven't explored YouTube.  We mainly use it for trying to do or fix something, and like it.  The other two......my exact opinion of them.  So perfect new name.


----------



## pedro47

I do not have a Facebook account. I have seen individuals lose their job because of some of their outside activities were not up to company standards and policies.

Plus, you should not be on any social media networks during working hours.  This is ground for termination with cause.


----------



## heathpack

DaveNW said:


> I have a coworker and friend who is a lot less discreet.  If he gets into any kind of "situation" at work, whether it's an argument, a task assignment, or anything that he doesn't think is right, I can just about guarantee there will be some sort of passive-aggressive snide comment or meme posted that day (sometime within minutes) on his Facebook page.  His comments are obscure enough that all his friends rush to ask what had happened, or did his Manager try to screw him over again, and such.  Sometimes he explains his snarky comments, and sometimes he blows it off, saying they wouldn't understand because they don't work where he does. (Drives me crazy when he does that!)  But it always results in somebody saying he's the poor victim, and they don't understand how good a worker he is, and so forth.  That kind of pity party stuff drives me up the wall.
> 
> He tends to be a contrarian anyway, and thinks everything that he disagrees with is a conspiracy to somehow "do him wrong."  I've told him many times he needs to stop doing that sort of thing, and he defends it, saying, "It's my Facebook page, I'll post what I want."  I just shrug and say, "Ok, whatever.  It's your future."  I'm honestly surprised he still works there.  In the back of my head I'm telling myself to stay back and don't get sucked into his stuff.  (Coincidentally, he works for the Manager I mentioned previously. That may be part of the FB blocking she did.)
> 
> Definitely one of those "Not my circus, not my monkeys" kind of thing.
> 
> Dave



I used to accept FB friend requests from people who are under me at work.

Now I just ignore the requests.

Why?  Because it creates ethical dilemmas.  Like the time my receptionist called out sick and on that same day posted a delicious picture to FB from her campsite mentioning what a great time she was having and how she didn’t want to go home and back to work.

Oy.  She was a good receptionist and rarely did stuff like this.  Way better to maintain the fiction than to post something that you know I can see.

Had to mention it to the reception supervisor.  It was not a huge deal in the end, got “spoken to” but no other repercussions IIRC.  She still works at the clinic in a different position and I still like her & we are friendly.

But from my perspective, no more.  I don’t want to know!  If it’s aggregious enough, I’m sure some other employee with tell me about it....


----------



## Egret1986

ace2000 said:


> Excellent points, and there's no way you or I, or anyone on this thread are going to be able to figure this out.  But, I agree with your assessment that hopefully this thread is not found out by her employer.  This is obviously a personal conflict between her and her boss - that's obvious by the consistent name calling of the boss by the OP in this thread.  And these conflicts generally are won by the boss (obviously not always though).  I'll say it again, the OP appears to want to be fired, IMO.



I think that the OP has included that desire previously in this thread.  No new news there.

Unfortunately, these kinds of postings (in today's world) should be limited anywhere on the internet.  They are now public documentation, easily found and could possibly be used to the detriment of the OP.

Mary Ann, I'm so sorry, at this point in your life, that you are dealing with this "crap".  You were clearly on your way to the finish line.  It sucks like crazy.  Any outcome, at this point, seems better than what you're going through now.  I have been going through my own thing at work as I head to my finish line in the not-too-distant future (29 years in).  My husband, last month, got a major curve ball thrown at him that has had a major impact on things (20 years in).  But neither of us are experiencing it to the extent that you are with your employment.  We know what the options are and have accepted them (until the next ones come along).  Gosh, I wish you the best.  Try your best not to let this have an impact on your health.  I know it's already taken a toll on your well-being.  Hang in there knowing many here on TUG care about what you're going through.


----------



## DaveNV

heathpack said:


> But from my perspective, no more.  I don’t want to know!  If it’s aggregious enough, I’m sure some other employee with tell me about it....




Exactly.  And when they're handing out pink slips because of FB posts, the most they'll get from me is my (most excellent) recipe for Mexican Lasagna. 

Dave


----------



## bogey21

Many years ago my Daughter opened a Facebook Account for me.  After about a year I decided it was not for me and shut it down.  I don't know how it is now but Facebook made me jump through all kinds of hoops before I was able to finally get rid of it.

George


----------



## WinniWoman

Egret1986 said:


> I think that the OP has included that desire previously in this thread.  No new news there.
> 
> Unfortunately, these kinds of postings (in today's world) should be limited anywhere on the internet.  They are now public documentation, easily found and could possibly be used to the detriment of the OP.
> 
> Mary Ann, I'm so sorry, at this point in your life, that you are dealing with this "crap".  You were clearly on your way to the finish line.  It sucks like crazy.  Any outcome, at this point, seems better than what you're going through now.  I have been going through my own thing at work as I head to my finish line in the not-too-distant future (29 years in).  My husband, last month, got a major curve ball thrown at him that has had a major impact on things (20 years in).  But neither of us are experiencing it to the extent that you are with your employment.  We know what the options are and have accepted them (until the next ones come along).  Gosh, I wish you the best.  Try your best not to let this have an impact on your health.  I know it's already taken a toll on your well-being.  Hang in there knowing many here on TUG care about what you're going through.




Thanks. Really I am good. Not stressed anymore- just get a little anxious. But to me, I have resolved that I win either way. All a matter of perspective and I have switched from the doom and gloom outlook to the wonderful possibilities that lie ahead in my life!


----------



## WinniWoman

bbodb1 said:


> Yet another reminder why FaceBook has been one of the most destructive of influences created by man.
> I spend a couple of class periods trying to warn students about the dangers of FaceBook specifically and social media as a whole but mostly to no avail.
> The best use of FaceBook is non use.



I love Facebook as I do not get to socialize and don't see my friends and family anymore. I think the key is "restraint" and smart usage. I particularly like the Private Messenger to chat privately with friends.


----------



## WinniWoman

ace2000 said:


> Excellent points, and there's no way you or I, or anyone on this thread are going to be able to figure this out.  But, I agree with your assessment that hopefully this thread is not found out by her employer.  This is obviously a personal conflict between her and her boss - that's obvious by the consistent name calling of the boss by the OP in this thread.  And these conflicts generally are won by the boss (obviously not always though).  I'll say it again, the OP appears to want to be fired, IMO.




Doesn't even matter now. The decision will be either I become a 1099 employee or I will be out. This is what they have done at all their other facilities. 

Then there is that issue of the additional marketing rep. they are considering hiring....which is suspect and can't be good for my job retention.

As for personal issues with the boss- no- not "personal" at all. Just a matter of bullying, harassment and discrimination.


----------



## Icc5

Just heard last night that after 28 years with the same company that my brother is with they are offering a buyout of 2 weeks for every year you have in for employees 55 and older.  He is 56 and was planning retirement in 4 years.  His company is doing great with record earnings but say taxes and other things coming up is going to hurt them.  If you don't take the buyout and then are let go they get 1 week per year in.  He is worried and thinks his job will be eliminated.  
He has decided to accept the buyout and go back to school to become a teacher.  His wife is a teacher and loves it and my brother's current job is very stressful.  They plan on moving to a second home they recently bought (in same state) in a few years and then just substitute teach.  He wants to feel he can make a difference in somebody's life.  The job end is in May.


----------



## VacationForever

Icc5 said:


> Just heard last night that after 28 years with the same company that my brother is with they are offering a buyout of 2 weeks for every year you have in for employees 55 and older.  He is 56 and was planning retirement in 4 years.  His company is doing great with record earnings but say taxes and other things coming up is going to hurt them.  If you don't take the buyout and then are let go they get 1 week per year in.  He is worried and thinks his job will be eliminated.
> He has decided to accept the buyout and go back to school to become a teacher.  His wife is a teacher and loves it and my brother's current job is very stressful.  They plan on moving to a second home they recently bought (in same state) in a few years and then just substitute teach.  He wants to feel he can make a difference in somebody's life.  The job end is in May.


Intel did this massive "old people" separation offer a couple of years ago.  The people who were targeted were all older and had spent decades at the company.  The package was very attractive, including fully paid medical for 2 years.  All the people whom I personally know accepted the package.  It was obviously age discrimination but since they made it "optional" I believe that was how the company got away from age discrimination claim.


----------



## WinniWoman

Icc5 said:


> Just heard last night that after 28 years with the same company that my brother is with they are offering a buyout of 2 weeks for every year you have in for employees 55 and older.  He is 56 and was planning retirement in 4 years.  His company is doing great with record earnings but say taxes and other things coming up is going to hurt them.  If you don't take the buyout and then are let go they get 1 week per year in.  He is worried and thinks his job will be eliminated.
> He has decided to accept the buyout and go back to school to become a teacher.  His wife is a teacher and loves it and my brother's current job is very stressful.  They plan on moving to a second home they recently bought (in same state) in a few years and then just substitute teach.  He wants to feel he can make a difference in somebody's life.  The job end is in May.




This is a good opportunity for your brother. He is doing the right thing IMO.It is good they are at least doing the right thing in terms of the severance package. 

A friend of mine was also just offered a package and will be accepting it- though she will be able to work until the end of the year; and I have had other friends that were offered packages as well on their jobs. They work for big companies. Same going on in my husband's company. My company is small potatoes. I would be lucky to get even a couple of weeks, if anything, in severance.

Anyway, good luck to him! Sounds like he has a good plan!


----------



## Panina

mpumilia said:


> I don't think you really are understanding the entire picture, but if you think you are- well than- ok. Appreciate your input.
> 
> When I used the word "coast"- I meant not having to deal with extreme stress or harassment or BS frankly. I do my best every day. I am no slug. If I didn't I would have been gone long ago. Just because I don't want to be abused and jump through hoops like in a dog and pony show doesn't mean I don't care about doing a decent job. I am no robot.
> 
> Yes- I am "chatty"- that is what I do for a living. No keeping my head down in this job. I have to look up- at people- in the eye every single day and open my mouth and always be happy- whether I really am or not. And talk, talk, talk and listen, listen, listen. One thing about me that can hurt me is that I am an open book- so I always have to work on that and catch myself. Very hard when you are an honest person and not secretive. I'm flawed- what can I say?
> 
> One thing- I am brave and not afraid of my own shadow like some people might be. Don't like the idea of losing a salary but love the idea of not working in these kinds of environments. If you like keeping your head down every single day of your life and working the assembly line - great! Not me! I need freedom and truth and honestly and respect with the people I work for and with.
> 
> By posting some of this I was trying to set the background/timeline of the events that lead to this unfortunate situation. And- by having a quit date it helped me to cope with what was going on- if things did not improve - kind of a mental game with myself- a way out. But after standing up for myself, things DID get better- at least for now. So I didn't quit- just moved the date back a few times as long as I can work without being bullied, I stay. If they let me go- so be it. And yes- the man's past work- with me- on the same job- including him getting thrown out of one of our doctor client's offices- is definitely relevant as far as I am concerned.
> 
> Fact is- this was all going to happen- the 1099 thing or the firing- no matter what I did or said. I knew this back in the Fall- just didn't expect this 'treatment" by the newly appointed boss, though I thought something was up when- during the holidays at the end of the year- before he officially became the boss- he hugged me and said to me- "have a nice life". This stuck with me as I thought it an odd thing to say.
> 
> As far as being annoyed- yes- I learned that lesson and will go outside and scream if I have to- but actually now I don't have to -I just laugh to myself and accept it. I keep smiling.
> 
> And as for his "pet"- I get it. It is just that he tossed a woman who was loyal to the company for 14 years for this younger person who was just there 2 years or so- a very good and smart person- don't get me wrong.
> 
> The Facebook thing- well he told me all these years I was the only person in the company he ever friended on FB- then he becomes director and immediately blocks me- not just unfriends me- but BLOCKS me. Very telling. I get he is the boss and might not want to associate with any employees on FB- but that was extreme- the blocking part. And- considering he is hiring people from the same family as his right hand person- that she is going to be overseeing- says something about him. In most companies this is a "no no".
> 
> I don't mention anything to him of a personal nature now that I am in this situation. In terms of my coworkers- I keep everything fairly vague.
> 
> I am confident in myself- just surprised at how this all was handled. But I suppose I shouldn't be in this dog eat dog work world.


You are amazing.  I love how you stand up for yourself.  Not sure I would have even acknowledged lots of what was said to you.  Whatever happens I believe you will land standing.


----------



## vacationhopeful

My severance package YEARS ago was 50% pay, 90% tuition & books for any accediated college courses and paid for medical benefits *for 1 year (one year)*. Starting after my accummulated vacation time ended. Did NOT added to any pension time into my account ... which then ment, I was 6 months short in qualifying for (their company) defined pension. A side (private) offer by a senior manager was, he could cover me for 1 year but NOTHING_ might _be offered at that time (his way of saying, most likely NOT offered).

I KNEW he felt guilty at that point in time and was "cutting me lose"... I took the college time and got my MBA at a great private engineering university. I had taken my MBA test a year or so before .. and had my sister (a junior there) inquire about a January start (6 weeks away) with the MBA admission director. She & I graduated 'together' .. my parents were SO PROUD of us in our gowns on graduation day.

I got a 1099 contract job .... at a WAY BIGGER company for 3.5 years. Brought some real estate.  And that is how I have paid my bills for the last 34+ years.

That above was the GOOD picture side.

The UGLY ... I traded (swapped) my new (18 months old) nice house for a 50+ year old place (1/3 of nice house's size). Packed up 90% of my stuff into a garage (detached garage at that "swapped for" house) and rented a college apartment for 1 year (slept on a sofa bed, ate off a hot plate). Finished last semester of grad school living between my parents' house for 3+ months they were in FL and my empty vacation home 30 miles from the college, etc... commuting 100 miles to class. Oh, I did have rental income from the 50+ year old "traded for" house and rental income from my 1st house plus "no cost storage" in my detached garage.

And knew not where ANYTHING was for at least 3+ years after losing my job.


----------



## WinniWoman

vacationhopeful said:


> My severance package YEARS ago was 50% pay, 90% tuition & books for any accediated college courses and paid for medical benefits *for 1 year (one year)*. Starting after my accummulated vacation time ended. Did NOT added to any pension time into my account ... which then ment, I was 6 months short in qualifying for (their company) defined pension. A side (private) offer by a senior manager was, he could cover me for 1 year but NOTHING_ might _be offered at that time (his way of saying, most likely NOT offered).
> 
> I KNEW he felt guilty at that point in time and was "cutting me lose"... I took the college time and got my MBA at a great private engineering university. I had taken my MBA test a year or so before .. and had my sister (a junior there) inquire about a January start (6 weeks away) with the MBA admission director. She & I graduated 'together' .. my parents were SO PROUD of us in our gowns on graduation day.
> 
> I got a 1099 contract job .... at a WAY BIGGER company for 3.5 years. Brought some real estate.  And that is how I have paid my bills for the last 34+ years.
> 
> That above was the GOOD picture side.
> 
> The UGLY ... I traded (swapped) my new (18 months old) nice house for a 50+ year old place (1/3 of nice house's size). Packed up 90% of my stuff into a garage (detached garage at that "swapped for" house) and rented a college apartment for 1 year (slept on a sofa bed, ate off a hot plate). Finished last semester of grad school living between my parents' house for 3+ months they were in FL and my empty vacation home 30 miles from the college, etc... commuting 100 miles to class. Oh, I did have rental income from the 50+ year old "traded for" house and rental income from my 1st house plus "no cost storage" in my detached garage.
> 
> And knew not where ANYTHING was for at least 3+ years after losing my job.




You are an amazingly strong person, Linda! And smart! Terrible what happened to your pension. But you have persevered!


----------



## Icc5

We were offered a buyout years ago for anyone with more then 10 years in.  The offer was 1 week of pay for each year in.  With that package there were no other benefits offered.
I knew one person that took it because he already wanted to get out and had another job that he had already planned on going to.  He had almost exactly 10 years in and his new job came with basically the exact same benefits except even better retirement.  It's all a matter of timing.


----------



## phyllispsu

mpumilia said:


> Well, here I am- almost 62 years old. In my 13th year and the worst job I have ever had. Finally got to a point where I could coast a little bit and the company gets acquired by a management company.
> 
> Not to get into all the gory details, but they stick a guy I have worked with and known here for years in the top mgmt. position. From day one- he blocks me from our friendship on Facebook. He begins to over - exert his authority, I presume to let it be known to me that he is now my boss and he is not going to be pliable in any way, shape or form. Every email he sends to me he CC's the COO of the new company. He uses everything he knows about my opinions of various things related to the job against me. His tone in his phone calls and emails is like a knife sticking into my gut.  I get annoyed with him- he writes me up immediately. I have never been written up in my entire life, nor have I ever been fired. He has his "pet" employee in the office with us writing up our conversations. OMG- I can't take it...
> 
> I am now more than uncomfortable. He assigns me a task he knows is making me miserable and so very unhappy, with an unrealistic expectation and deadline. He also fires a 55 year old woman who has been there for 14 years- someone he never liked, but has been loyal to the company. He puts one of his "pets" into her position.
> 
> I start to get the picture. I decide there is age discrimination involved here. The new company probably wants a high energy, younger person with some of the latest marketing technology ideas. They want someone at their beckon call- ra ra and all that jazz. Wants to work 80 hours a week and no life.
> 
> I am convinced he is trying to make me quit or find grounds to fire me.
> 
> So- I decide it is time to be proactive when I told him he was harassing me and his back went up and he said he is contacting the owners. I demanded the contact info for the human resource person and spoke to her at length about age discrimination and harassment  and also about this man's past- which I won;t get into here but you would not believe it if I told you it is so crazy. Two of the things show his perception regarding my age and also there is a witness I named to it.
> 
> Since then, he is being cordial to me at least.
> 
> So at this point, the COO has sent an email to us saying she wants to address my work flow and also high tech marketing ideas sometime next week in a meeting.
> 
> The past 6 weeks have been hell for me. I find myself crying. I am so unhappy. I had 3 years to go until I could get Medicare and retire- figured I could take SS at 66- but I am just not going to make it.
> 
> I was sure they would fire me this week and was actually looking forward to the relief, but it didn't happen.
> 
> So- I have contacted a lawyer and am going to have to work on a lengthy questionnaire tomorrow. I do not want to keep my job. I just can't do it anymore and work in this situation knowing what they are trying to do to me. The only point of me getting a lawyer is to maybe get me out of the job with some kind of severance and my PTO days. Someone to do the talking for me as I get emotional and start to cry. I am afraid to try to negotiate a resignation. The other woman that they fired and was there 14 years got 6 weeks severance- but she forgot to ask about PTO days and she mistakenly signed the papers before she thought it through. At least she will also get unemployment. If I am not fired I will not.
> 
> I am not sure if I should even continue with this stupid project he has me doing as I want to blow my brains out every day doing it - it is torture for me.
> 
> 
> mpumilia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, here I am- almost 62 years old. In my 13th year and the worst job I have ever had. Finally got to a point where I could coast a little bit and the company gets acquired by a management company.
> 
> Not to get into all the gory details, but they stick a guy I have worked with and known here for years in the top mgmt. position. From day one- he blocks me from our friendship on Facebook. He begins to over - exert his authority, I presume to let it be known to me that he is now my boss and he is not going to be pliable in any way, shape or form. Every email he sends to me he CC's the COO of the new company. He uses everything he knows about my opinions of various things related to the job against me. His tone in his phone calls and emails is like a knife sticking into my gut.  I get annoyed with him- he writes me up immediately. I have never been written up in my entire life, nor have I ever been fired. He has his "pet" employee in the office with us writing up our conversations. OMG- I can't take it...
> 
> I am now more than uncomfortable. He assigns me a task he knows is making me miserable and so very unhappy, with an unrealistic expectation and deadline. He also fires a 55 year old woman who has been there for 14 years- someone he never liked, but has been loyal to the company. He puts one of his "pets" into her position.
> 
> I start to get the picture. I decide there is age discrimination involved here. The new company probably wants a high energy, younger person with some of the latest marketing technology ideas. They want someone at their beckon call- ra ra and all that jazz. Wants to work 80 hours a week and no life.
> 
> I am convinced he is trying to make me quit or find grounds to fire me.
> 
> So- I decide it is time to be proactive when I told him he was harassing me and his back went up and he said he is contacting the owners. I demanded the contact info for the human resource person and spoke to her at length about age discrimination and harassment  and also about this man's past- which I won;t get into here but you would not believe it if I told you it is so crazy. Two of the things show his perception regarding my age and also there is a witness I named to it.
> 
> Since then, he is being cordial to me at least.
> 
> So at this point, the COO has sent an email to us saying she wants to address my work flow and also high tech marketing ideas sometime next week in a meeting.
> 
> The past 6 weeks have been hell for me. I find myself crying. I am so unhappy. I had 3 years to go until I could get Medicare and retire- figured I could take SS at 66- but I am just not going to make it.
> 
> I was sure they would fire me this week and was actually looking forward to the relief, but it didn't happen.
> 
> So- I have contacted a lawyer and am going to have to work on a lengthy questionnaire tomorrow. I do not want to keep my job. I just can't do it anymore and work in this situation knowing what they are trying to do to me. The only point of me getting a lawyer is to maybe get me out of the job with some kind of severance and my PTO days. Someone to do the talking for me as I get emotional and start to cry. I am afraid to try to negotiate a resignation. The other woman that they fired and was there 14 years got 6 weeks severance- but she forgot to ask about PTO days and she mistakenly signed the papers before she thought it through. At least she will also get unemployment. If I am not fired I will not.
> 
> I am not sure if I should even continue with this stupid project he has me doing as I want to blow my brains out every day doing it - it is torture for me.
> 
> I want to be out by April 1st one way or another. Or at least give notice by then or get fired by then. I haven't slept in weeks and I am in a constant nervous state. I am so done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How are things going?
Click to expand...


----------



## WinniWoman

*"How are things going?"phyllispsu

*
Well- I am still there and quit date is expiring. Boss is treating me ok- like the "old" guy I knew in the past without all the craziness.

Weird thing is he is not sending out tons of emails like he did when he first started, but he is also not answering the emails I send him. Sometimes I have to send them again and he still doesn't answer them, so I have to talk to him in person to get a verbal answer. I don't get it.

The most recent conversation was that he claims I am not getting fired. That he is hiring a second marketing rep. He is not going to hire the 1099 guy who works for the new company and covers several sites. He says he pretty much does exactly what I do. So I ask- "what exactly is the new person going to do then?". He says the new company has a new marketing program this person could work on. I know this is BS as the person would be going to the same places I go to with the information. There is absolutely no need for a second marketing person.

Just think- the guy he chose not to hire is working for SEVERAL centers- not just one. And this company thinks our single center- big as it might be- needs 2 reps?!! I don't think so!

Then he tells me he really wants this other person- the the young woman I suspected all along who is related to his key assistant- but she doesn't have experience. She worked for us for a number of years at the front desk and he recently brought her in the train the newbies at the front desk and help answer phones.Then there is the one who works for our competition who he claims has been there for a year. I ask him why she is leaving and he tells me she was fired! He is concerned she is BS'ing him about her contacts. I explain she goes to the exact places I go to. Sure- it's possible she has a couple of in's, but if she was fired. well.....how good can those "ins" be?

I ask if these people he is considering are willing to work as 1099's? He said they were.

He says it is possible our new company might acquire that competing company as well as he heard they are not paying their bills and are in financial straits.

He then says probably by the end of the year- January 1st- they will make me a 1099 employee. I tell him there is no such thing as a 1099 employee. You are either self-employed or you're not. He agrees. I tell him I am not crazy about having to pay my own taxes and it would all depend on what is in the contract. He stresses again that they have no salaried marketing people. (Well- from what he was saying previously it seems like they just have this one guy doing a few centers, plus a Marketing Director for two centers). So then he changes his tune and says he would not make me a 1099 employee- he would leave me as salaried.

Of course, with this guy- you just don't know what to believe. The whole thing is nuts.

Yet- I am getting emails from the COO referring to me as the Marketing Director and introducing me to a few people in the company- her brother- who does graphic design whom I have been speaking with via phone the past 2 weeks- and also her project manager/assistant.

I have been setting up appointments for the new CEO to meet with doctors in the community. He did a first round and now next week will do a second round. All is good with that.

So- each day I tell myself I am getting another paycheck and I am going with the flow. As long as the environment stays civil, I am good with that!

Although in many ways, I was so looking forward to not working, LOL! , I am glad to have the money as there are changes going on with my husband's employer, so we are not in a secure position income wise. And we need the health insurance. So- I am plugging away!


----------



## Talent312

My strategy when there was personnel issues in the office: Keep my head down, do the work, and try not to be noticed. Don't rock the boat & don't make waves. Fly under the radar. Then, maybe they'll look elsewhere to stir up trouble. Of course, YMMV.
.


----------



## WinniWoman

Talent312 said:


> My strategy when there was personnel issues in the office: Keep my head down, do the work, and try not to be noticed. Don't rock the boat & don't make waves. Fly under the radar. Then, maybe they'll look elsewhere to stir up trouble. Of course, YMMV.
> .




Yes. I get it. I am happy to be out in my car most of the time. But- it's hard for marketing people not to be noticed. We are the face and voice of the place out in public.


----------



## bbodb1

mpumilia said:


> Weird thing is he is not sending out tons of emails like he did when he first started, _but he is also not answering the emails I send him. Sometimes I have to send them again and he still doesn't answer them, so I have to talk to him in person to get a verbal answer. I don't get it_.



FWIW: In my current position, I deal with about 70 people on a daily basis (I am the defacto tech guy).  It wasn't all that long ago when people would actually make a smidgen of effort in looking for an answer to a problem they had *especially if there were reference resources they could turn to for answers*.  Somewhere along the way, we've gotten collectively lazy and many people will no longer make an effort to search for an answer on their own.  Instead, they will send me an email asking a question that in many cases has been sufficiently answered in a recent email I sent.  I've quit answering these emails because as long as I do, all I'm doing is reinforcing a bad behavior.  

*Allow me a moment here to be clear - I am NOT suggesting the above is what is in play here, rather that it stems from the following:*

Overall, our email practices have devolved to levels approaching uselessness.  We get far too many emails so that the important ones no longer are as easy to find as they once were.  This is one side effect of the Google type of email app which allows people to think it is okay NOT to keep an orderly inbox because the search tools in Google can help them find things while at the same time, most people do not know how to make effective use of the search tool.  It doesn't take long before a person's inbox becomes the proverbial sock drawer with 100's of lost and non-matching socks.  Many people (both technical and non-technical) do not know how to use *or they misuse* inbox rules for handling email.   

My point here is that you've clearly established that email does not work when communicating with your boss.  Try old school - send a memo *on paper*.  This too may be a lost cause but it is one way to stand out when you need an answer.


----------



## DaveNV

mpumilia said:


> Yes. I get it. I am happy to be out in my car most of the time. But- it's hard for marketing people not to be noticed. We are the face and voice of the place out in public.



If the CEO is referring to you as the Marketing Director, and is introducing you to people you're working with well, then I'd say your immediate supervisor guy may be the one who doesn't have a clue.  It may be he's trying to operate like he's in charge, when he may not be.  A lot of mid-level managers are jockeying for position, and heads may roll - but it may not be yours.  Do your best work, and let the bean counters fight over your job description.  Best advice is what Talent312 said - keep your head down.  Before you know it, you'll be at the tipping point of retirement.  

Time has a way of passing quickly:  Here we are, 2018 is almost a third of the way done already, and last night I noticed I still have a Christmas decoration sitting out on a table in my living room.  LOL!  

Dave


----------



## bbodb1

DaveNW said:


> ....Time has a way of passing quickly:  Here we are, 2018 is almost a third of the way done already, and last night I noticed I still have a Christmas decoration sitting out on a table in my living room.  LOL!
> 
> Dave



Dave,

Hang some paper butterflies on it and call it a spring decoration.


----------



## DaveNV

bbodb1 said:


> Dave,
> 
> Hang some paper butterflies on it and call it a spring decoration.



I figure I'm just early for next Christmas. 

Dave


----------



## WinniWoman

bbodb1 said:


> FWIW: In my current position, I deal with about 70 people on a daily basis (I am the defacto tech guy).  It wasn't all that long ago when people would actually make a smidgen of effort in looking for an answer to a problem they had *especially if there were reference resources they could turn to for answers*.  Somewhere along the way, we've gotten collectively lazy and many people will no longer make an effort to search for an answer on their own.  Instead, they will send me an email asking a question that in many cases has been sufficiently answered in a recent email I sent.  I've quit answering these emails because as long as I do, all I'm doing is reinforcing a bad behavior.
> 
> *Allow me a moment here to be clear - I am NOT suggesting the above is what is in play here, rather that it stems from the following:*
> 
> Overall, our email practices have devolved to levels approaching uselessness.  We get far too many emails so that the important ones no longer are as easy to find as they once were.  This is one side effect of the Google type of email app which allows people to think it is okay NOT to keep an orderly inbox because the search tools in Google can help them find things while at the same time, most people do not know how to make effective use of the search tool.  It doesn't take long before a person's inbox becomes the proverbial sock drawer with 100's of lost and non-matching socks.  Many people (both technical and non-technical) do not know how to use *or they misuse* inbox rules for handling email.
> 
> My point here is that you've clearly established that email does not work when communicating with your boss.  Try old school - send a memo *on paper*.  This too may be a lost cause but it is one way to stand out when you need an answer.




Thing is- when he started he was adamant about using email for all communication with him. He would send tons of emails and cc the COO everything. Now, all of a sudden this has stopped. And these emails were in regard to things he asked me to investigate and things he would need to approve.

And instead of texting me or calling me when I am out in the field, he has now once or twice decided to use Google Hangouts- which I never checked before because no one on the company communicates with me that way because I am driving.

He hates when I put any paper on his desk as well. Usually wants me to scan it and email it to him. He's now sitting on 5 weeks of my mileage logs - emailed to him as he wanted-and i hope I will see a check this week because my gas credit card balance is due.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Send an email to him requesting IMMEDIATE REIMBURSEMENT for those 5 weeks of mileage logs ... along to HIS boss. 

In the future, send a 'bcc' a copy to a 'email' account which is setup as a 'copy log' ... PROOF you sent emails to WHOM and WHERE (date & time).

This 'boss' is lost .... if he had not processed even ONE of those mileage logs. 

Is there an accounting office who could email HIM and his boss .... requesting MILEAGE LOGS for them to pay as NONE have come down from that department. AND actual financial statements can NOT be prepared to reflect the 1st quarter 2018 income & expenses without said information.


----------



## WinniWoman

vacationhopeful said:


> Send an email to him requesting IMMEDIATE REIMBURSEMENT for those 5 weeks of mileage logs ... along to HIS boss.
> 
> In the future, send a 'bcc' a copy to a 'email' account which is setup as a 'copy log' ... PROOF you sent emails to WHOM and WHERE (date & time).
> 
> This 'boss' is lost .... if he had not processed even ONE of those mileage logs.
> 
> Is there an accounting office who could email HIM and his boss .... requesting MILEAGE LOGS for them to pay as NONE have come down from that department. AND actual financial statements can NOT be prepared to reflect the 1st quarter 2018 income & expenses without said information.




Good idea about the bcc- didn't realize that!  I have been forwarding them to my personal email account using the forward button.

Don;t know about an accounting office. The new COO has been handwriting checks every few weeks previously with my paper logs. The last one I got was the third week of March. The rest are all emailed ones, so I am not sure how those will be handled. The old company used to give me the checks- either in person or by mail- every 2-3 weeks. Once in a while, though they were a little behind also.


----------



## WinniWoman

Well, I am still here battling the bully. Today during a meeting while he and the CEO were conducting a meeting- first one I was ever included in- he says to me in front of a few of my coworkers and the CEO that I don't look too excited. Well- no one looked too "excited"-we were taking it all in. I mean, I was taking notes and concentrating on what was being presented. What does he want me to do- start cheer leading? OMG.  So humiliating. (meanwhile- at this meeting what was presented was the "same ol" so how exciting could it be?!). Then he sent an email and I respond that I do not have the document he was talking about- (which I told him a month ago that he never sent to me because I was not included in the group emails at that time). So he responds back that I should stop being passive aggressive! I respond that I am not being passive aggressive but I do not have the document!  I am not sure how much more of this I can take. As it is, I have to deal with the new company and their over analyzing and micromanaging everything. Work is hell and so unpleasant to face every day. 

(I tried to forward that email to my personal email for future reference should I need it for proof- and inadvertently deleted it before I had a chance to print it. Darn!)

The only thing I am excited about right now is going on vacation in another week!


----------



## Panina

mpumilia said:


> Well, I am still here battling the bully. Today during a meeting while he and the CEO were conducting a meeting- first one I was ever included in- he says to me in front of a few of my coworkers and the CEO that I don't look too excited. Well- no one looked too "excited"-we were taking it all in. I mean, I was taking notes and concentrating on what was being presented. What does he want me to do- start cheer leading? OMG.  So humiliating. (meanwhile- at this meeting what was presented was the "same ol" so how exciting could it be?!). Then he sent an email and I respond that I do not have the document he was talking about- (which I told him a month ago that he never sent to me because I was not included in the group emails at that time). So he responds back that I should stop being passive aggressive! I respond that I am not being passive aggressive but I do not have the document!  I am not sure how much more of this I can take. As it is, I have to deal with the new company and their over analyzing and micromanaging everything. Work is hell and so unpleasant to face every day.
> 
> (I tried to forward that email to my personal email for future reference should I need it for proof- and inadvertently deleted it before I had a chance to print it. Darn!)
> 
> The only thing I am excited about right now is going on vacation in another week!



If you sent him a response, you might have a copy in your sent folder.  Also it could be in an all email file or delete file. 

What he said in the meeting, write it down with date, exactly  what was said and everyone who was in the meeting.  Hopefully one person will tell the truth if you need a witness.


----------



## bluehende

mpumilia said:


> Well, I am still here battling the bully. Today during a meeting while he and the CEO were conducting a meeting- first one I was ever included in- he says to me in front of a few of my coworkers and the CEO that I don't look too excited. Well- no one looked too "excited"-we were taking it all in. I mean, I was taking notes and concentrating on what was being presented. What does he want me to do- start cheer leading? OMG.  So humiliating. (meanwhile- at this meeting what was presented was the "same ol" so how exciting could it be?!). Then he sent an email and I respond that I do not have the document he was talking about- (which I told him a month ago that he never sent to me because I was not included in the group emails at that time). So he responds back that I should stop being passive aggressive! I respond that I am not being passive aggressive but I do not have the document!  I am not sure how much more of this I can take. As it is, I have to deal with the new company and their over analyzing and micromanaging everything. Work is hell and so unpleasant to face every day.
> 
> (I tried to forward that email to my personal email for future reference should I need it for proof- and inadvertently deleted it before I had a chance to print it. Darn!)
> 
> The only thing I am excited about right now is going on vacation in another week!



Document it.  If it comes down to needing it they would have to produce it.  Any chance the chain is in a sent folder when you replied?  Hang in there.  Of course I am enough of a smart A to ask him to resend it as I deleted it before I put it in my lawsuit folder.

edit to say I was scooped by a few seconds.


----------



## WinniWoman

I found it! I actually did print it out when I got it and forgot! Phew!


----------



## WinniWoman

Panina said:


> If you sent him a response, you might have a copy in your sent folder.  Also it could be in an all email file or delete file.
> 
> What he said in the meeting, write it down with date, exactly  what was said and everyone who was in the meeting.  Hopefully one person will tell the truth if you need a witness.




Well- gosh- the CEO was there! Just a small group of us. But I am going to write it down.


----------



## winger

Very true. HR is a company's insurance against lawsuits.


IngridN said:


> I'm sorry for your job situation. Lots of good advice. I do have one comment...do NOT trust HR. HR exists to protect the company not the employee. Be very careful in your communications with HR.


.


----------



## WinniWoman

I think the only reason I am still there is I contacted HR and used age discrimination. I think I beat him to it before he had a chance to fire me. He probably would have preferred that I resign which is why he harassed me in the first place. He wanted the younger woman in my place and a much lower salary.

I think at this point he is acting this way because he wants to be proven right about whatever he has told the new company about me. I am just going along and yessing him to death as much as possible.  He is trying to trip me up on a daily basis and it is throwing me off balance while I am trying to do my job. But I have been able to regroup and carry on. Not easy.

Meanwhile, doesn't he see that all our clients are happy with me as their rep all these years? Never had one complaint? We get tons of referrals from them? SMH...


----------



## WinniWoman

And- they have not hired a second marketing rep as of yet and they have not re-written my job description as of yet either as they stated they would. They might be just using me for now until they do whatever it is they are going to do. It amazes me that they have HIM in that position. Just unbelievable.

When I get back from this vacation coming up in another week, good thing I have another one a month later and then another one a month after that! They can eat toast! It's been a long 6 months with no time off in this hell hole!


----------



## VacationForever

mpumilia said:


> I think the only reason I am still there is I contacted HR and used age discrimination. I think I beat him to it before he had a chance to fire me. He probably would have preferred that I resign which is why he harassed me in the first place. He wanted the younger woman in my place and a much lower salary.
> 
> I think at this point he is acting this way because he wants to be proven right about whatever he has told the new company about me. I am just going along and yessing him to death as much as possible.  He is trying to trip me up on a daily basis and it is throwing me off balance while I am trying to do my job. But I have been able to regroup and carry on. Not easy.
> 
> Meanwhile, doesn't he see that all our clients are happy with me as their rep all these years? Never had one complaint? We get tons of referrals from them? SMH...


Keep doing what you are doing, that is, your job and keeping track of interaction between "management" and you.  Hugs!


----------



## WinniWoman

VacationForever said:


> Keep doing what you are doing, that is your job and keeping track of interaction between "management" and you.  Hugs!




I can't do anything else. It is all getting very tiring. I just wish I could be happy every day, or at least on an even keel. It's no way to live. No way can I keep this up for years. Something will give at some point somewhere.


----------



## am1

Sounds terrible.  For you and the company.  If it is that bad I would resign and be done with it.


----------



## pedro47

No! Do not resign. Remember this.. a winner never quits and a person who quits never win.
A change is going to come for you.


----------



## am1

pedro47 said:


> No! Do not resign. Remember this.. a winner never quits and a person who quits never win.
> A change is going to come for you.



This seems to be an example about why age discrimination can be a bad thing.  A company is afraid to fine someone else for less money for fear of a lawsuit.  Even though the person does not like the company and dreads coming to work.


----------



## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> This seems to be an example about why age discrimination can be a bad thing.  A company is afraid to fine someone else for less money for fear of a lawsuit.  Even though the person does not like the company and dreads coming to work.




Well- maybe if the employee was treated decently the employee wouldn't dread coming to work!


----------



## am1

mpumilia said:


> Well- maybe if the employee was treated decently the employee wouldn't dread coming to work!



No doubt.  That is why you can leave.  Make the manager regret you leaving and working for the competition.


----------



## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> No doubt.  That is why you can leave.  Make the manager regret you leaving and working for the competition.



If there is ever an opening with the competition here, I would apply for sure. There is only two of them in our area, so slim chance. Not to mention, I will still have the age issue. Not many companies hire people in their 60's.


----------



## geekette

mpumilia said:


> If there is ever an opening with the competition here, I would apply for sure. There is only two of them in our area, so slim chance. Not to mention, I will still have the age issue. Not many companies hire people in their 60's.



Exactly.  The lady does not live in a large booming metropolis.  I can replace jobs easily because I do live in a large place with many opportunities.  

this is not a situation in which a person needs to get huffy and quit, it's a delicate situation where "quit and go find another job" is just not a reasonable course of action.   Age doesn't have as much to do with replacing the job as it does with keeping the old one.


----------



## Sugarcubesea

mpumilia said:


> If there is ever an opening with the competition here, I would apply for sure. There is only two of them in our area, so slim chance. Not to mention, I will still have the age issue. Not many companies hire people in their 60's.


I face the age discrimination in the automotive industry, if you are over 50 your deemed too old and they find a way to get rid of you.  I work for a Japanese automotive, tier 2 company now and thankfully they love the mature worker...


----------



## bluehende

Sugarcubesea said:


> I face the age discrimination in the automotive industry, if you are over 50 your deemed too old and they find a way to get rid of you.  I work for a Japanese automotive, tier 2 company now and thankfully they love the mature worker...



Do you think that the difference is more cultural?  Not a lot of respect for our elders in this country.  Oh by the way.......GET OFF MY LAWN


----------



## vacationhopeful

Decades ago, I had a 'anti-female' manager .. okay, maybe NOT anti-female, but he ONLY hired Ivy League graduates back when all the Ivy League school alumni were ALL MEN (early 1980s era). They got offices with doors and I got a cubicle next to his secretary cubicle and ASKED (aka TOLD) to 'train' these these IVIES  with a higher job position & LARGER salary. I was an exempt employee with 8+ years in the company with a BS degree computer science major and acounting minor. A new parade of 'interviewees' walked by my cubicle in their 'interview suits' ... I finally got annoyed (actually angry and pissed).

I caught/looked up a former ski group friend (my manager's boss who hired him) at an area bar one night. I told him, "If_ your boy Jon... _hires ONE MORE white anglo-saxon IVY LEAGUE graduate, I am gonna SUE YOU'ALL". He said "Jon..." was not doing this ... I said this to the guy who HIRED "Jon..." and was "Jon..." current manager. And had an Ivy League degree himself (...as did my older brother). And almost all Ivy League schools where NOT co-ed back in those days. Yes, ASKED my manager's boss to just NAME one newly hire "Jon..." brought in who was NOT an Ivy League grad. He thought a LONG, LONG moment and proclaimed, TYLER. I rolled my eyes and asked "When did Cornell University drop out of the Ivy League?".

My manager's  boss looked totally disgusted, muttered something under his breath, "downed" the rest of his drink, took the bill and LEFT.

The NEXT morning this big boss walked the floor, past my cubical, looked directly at me sitting at my desk, smiled & grinned and WALKED into "Jon..."'s office, closed his door, sat in his guest chair and PUT both of HIS FEET UP ON "Jon's desk. Then lit up a cigerette, puff a few draws .. and started a very SHORT speech. An appearent ONE side SHORT speech ... got up left and walked by my cubical .. looked at me and nodded. Later the big boss told me, he cancelled all future new (Jon...'s staff) hires .. due to _alledged_ budget reductions. It was an OIL company ... there were no budget reductions ... I worked in corporate finance and visited all offsite refinery locations in Ohio, Texas & OK.

Took "Jon.." a good year to 'get rid of me' but I got 50% salary, health insurance and 90% tuition & books to get my MBA degree for next 12 months. And went to work as a "percentage rate" consulting contractor at an EVEN BIGGER corporate entity just down the road in Delaware. Those were the last 3.5 years I lived in a 5' foot walled cubical 5 days a week.

And the final chapter ... neither of those 2 BIG (brand named .. logo'ed, top 50 USA) COMPANIES exist independantly anymore. Just bits & pieces, a few tibbits, product LOGOs. NOR have I worked for a weekly paycheck or in a (highrise or lowrise) office building for the past 30+ years either. 

Missed that defined pension ... was less than 6 months shy of being vested in it.


----------



## lockewong

mpumilia said:


> *"How are things going?"phyllispsu
> 
> *
> 
> Well- I am still there and quit date is expiring. Boss is treating me ok- like the "old" guy I knew in the past without all the craziness.
> 
> Weird thing is he is not sending out tons of emails like he did when he first started, but he is also not answering the emails I send him. Sometimes I have to send them again and he still doesn't answer them, so I have to talk to him in person to get a verbal answer. I don't get it.
> 
> The most recent conversation was that he claims I am not getting fired. That he is hiring a second marketing rep. He is not going to hire the 1099 guy who works for the new company and covers several sites. He says he pretty much does exactly what I do. So I ask- "what exactly is the new person going to do then?". He says the new company has a new marketing program this person could work on. I know this is BS as the person would be going to the same places I go to with the information. There is absolutely no need for a second marketing person.
> 
> Just think- the guy he chose not to hire is working for SEVERAL centers- not just one. And this company thinks our single center- big as it might be- needs 2 reps?!! I don't think so!
> 
> Then he tells me he really wants this other person- the the young woman I suspected all along who is related to his key assistant- but she doesn't have experience. She worked for us for a number of years at the front desk and he recently brought her in the train the newbies at the front desk and help answer phones.Then there is the one who works for our competition who he claims has been there for a year. I ask him why she is leaving and he tells me she was fired! He is concerned she is BS'ing him about her contacts. I explain she goes to the exact places I go to. Sure- it's possible she has a couple of in's, but if she was fired. well.....how good can those "ins" be?
> 
> I ask if these people he is considering are willing to work as 1099's? He said they were.
> 
> He says it is possible our new company might acquire that competing company as well as he heard they are not paying their bills and are in financial straits.
> 
> 
> 
> He then says probably by the end of the year- January 1st- they will make me a 1099 employee. I tell him there is no such thing as a 1099 employee. You are either self-employed or you're not. He agrees. I tell him I am not crazy about having to pay my own taxes and it would all depend on what is in the contract. He stresses again that they have no salaried marketing people. (Well- from what he was saying previously it seems like they just have this one guy doing a few centers, plus a Marketing Director for two centers). So then he changes his tune and says he would not make me a 1099 employee- he would leave me as salaried.
> 
> Of course, with this guy- you just don't know what to believe. The whole thing is nuts.
> 
> Yet- I am getting emails from the COO referring to me as the Marketing Director and introducing me to a few people in the company- her brother- who does graphic design whom I have been speaking with via phone the past 2 weeks- and also her project manager/assistant.
> 
> I have been setting up appointments for the new CEO to meet with doctors in the community. He did a first round and now next week will do a second round. All is good with that.
> 
> So- each day I tell myself I am getting another paycheck and I am going with the flow. As long as the environment stays civil, I am good with that!
> 
> Although in many ways, I was so looking forward to not working, LOL! , I am glad to have the money as there are changes going on with my husband's employer, so we are not in a secure position income wise. And we need the health insurance. So- I am plugging away!


Dear mpumilia:

I have read your posts for a few years.  You are always very helpful to TUGGERs.  I sympathize as I see in many industries and businesses the trend of out with the "old" and in with the savvy and "new."  Persevere as others have encouraged you to do.  Two questions, what did the attorney that you hired advise?  Most states have laws, even for small businesses.  Unless your office is under 15 employees, but you mentioned, other facilities.  Check into your state law and then, the federal law.  Personal harassment through behavior and snide comments, including outright favoritism, after your years of dedication and hard work is debilitating and a personal slap-in-the-face.  Unfortunately, it is hard to quantify and describe when you are being subjected to those behaviors.  Also, for all your clients that praise you, have the send a quick email to you to further your documentation.  You have allies, be polite but ask them to support your work.  Good luck.  Wishing the best for you.


----------



## Sugarcubesea

bluehende said:


> Do you think that the difference is more cultural?  Not a lot of respect for our elders in this country.  Oh by the way.......GET OFF MY LAWN


For the Japanese it’s definitely cultural.  They have a great regard for their elders. They believe in harmony in the workplace.


----------



## Panina

Sugarcubesea said:


> For the Japanese it’s definitely cultural.  They have a great regard for their elders. They believe in harmony in the workplace.


My aunt worked for a Japanese cosmetic company until she retired at 65.  They had a large work force that worked there for many years until retirement.


----------



## WinniWoman

lockewong said:


> Dear mpumilia:
> 
> I have read your posts for a few years.  You are always very helpful to TUGGERs.  I sympathize as I see in many industries and businesses the trend of out with the "old" and in with the savvy and "new."  Persevere as others have encouraged you to do.  Two questions, what did the attorney that you hired advise?  Most states have laws, even for small businesses.  Unless your office is under 15 employees, but you mentioned, other facilities.  Check into your state law and then, the federal law.  Personal harassment through behavior and snide comments, including outright favoritism, after your years of dedication and hard work is debilitating and a personal slap-in-the-face.  Unfortunately, it is hard to quantify and describe when you are being subjected to those behaviors.  Also, for all your clients that praise you, have the send a quick email to you to further your documentation.  You have allies, be polite but ask them to support your work.  Good luck.  Wishing the best for you.




The atty actually said to wait to see if I am fired at this point. LOL! OK. I am hanging in there.


----------



## Panina

mpumilia said:


> The atty actually said to wait to see if I am fired at this point. LOL! OK. I am hanging in there.


Document, document, document, write a book.  Email yourself, this way each incident is time stamped when you wrote it.


----------



## bluehende

vacationhopeful said:


> Decades ago, I had a 'anti-female' manager .. okay, maybe NOT anti-female, but he ONLY hired Ivy League graduates back when all the Ivy League school alumni were ALL MEN (early 1980s era). They got offices with doors and I got a cubicle next to his secretary cubicle and ASKED (aka TOLD) to 'train' these these IVIES  with a higher job position & LARGER salary. I was an exempt employee with 8+ years in the company with a BS degree computer science major and acounting minor. A new parade of 'interviewees' walked by my cubicle in their 'interview suits' ... I finally got annoyed (actually angry and pissed).
> 
> I caught/looked up a former ski group friend (my manager's boss who hired him) at an area bar one night. I told him, "If_ your boy Jon... _hires ONE MORE white anglo-saxon IVY LEAGUE graduate, I am gonna SUE YOU'ALL". He said "Jon..." was not doing this ... I said this to the guy who HIRED "Jon..." and was "Jon..." current manager. And had an Ivy League degree himself (...as did my older brother). And almost all Ivy League schools where NOT co-ed back in those days. Yes, ASKED my manager's boss to just NAME one newly hire "Jon..." brought in who was NOT an Ivy League grad. He thought a LONG, LONG moment and proclaimed, TYLER. I rolled my eyes and asked "When did Cornell University drop out of the Ivy League?".
> 
> My manager's  boss looked totally disgusted, muttered something under his breath, "downed" the rest of his drink, took the bill and LEFT.
> 
> The NEXT morning this big boss walked the floor, past my cubical, looked directly at me sitting at my desk, smiled & grinned and WALKED into "Jon..."'s office, closed his door, sat in his guest chair and PUT both of HIS FEET UP ON "Jon's desk. Then lit up a cigerette, puff a few draws .. and started a very SHORT speech. An appearent ONE side SHORT speech ... got up left and walked by my cubical .. looked at me and nodded. Later the big boss told me, he cancelled all future new (Jon...'s staff) hires .. due to _alledged_ budget reductions. It was an OIL company ... there were no budget reductions ... I worked in corporate finance and visited all offsite refinery locations in Ohio, Texas & OK.
> 
> Took "Jon.." a good year to 'get rid of me' but I got 50% salary, health insurance and 90% tuition & books to get my MBA degree for next 12 months. And went to work as a "percentage rate" consulting contractor at an EVEN BIGGER corporate entity just down the road in Delaware. Those were the last 3.5 years I lived in a 5' foot walled cubical 5 days a week.
> 
> And the final chapter ... neither of those 2 BIG (brand named .. logo'ed, top 50 USA) COMPANIES exist independantly anymore. Just bits & pieces, a few tibbits, product LOGOs. NOR have I worked for a weekly paycheck or in a (highrise or lowrise) office building for the past 30+ years either.
> 
> Missed that defined pension ... was less than 6 months shy of being vested in it.



I worked for DuPont.  Your description fits.  I know DuPont lost a lot of age discrimination suits and when I was laid off was invited to enter one.  Since I volunteered for the layoff they decided I wasn't a good fit.


----------



## vacationhopeful

While I worked at DuPont, I was a contract consultant ... June, 1984 thru December, 1987. ... making very good money. I would sort paper clips if told ... just chanting in my head ... 1 dollar, 2 dollar, 3 dollar, 4, etc. with a very pleasant smile on my face. I enjoyed my paycheck at DuPont visitng many different departments ... even eating a weekly lunchs for months with a recent college kid who graduated from Duke U (like my one sister had). His last name was Copxxxxx .. I did not know the family connection .. nice guy. Just lunches at a different place each week in downtown Wilmington. My floor coworkers gave me a farewell lunch, too. More than I got at my prior company after almost 9 years as a direct employee.

It was the 9 years I spent at the oil company whose corporate offices move from 1608 Walnut Street, Philadelphia to Radnor, Pa. I had "work offices" in the various Center City buildings ... first office site wss 3 Girard Plaza, then 1616 Walnut Street, 1600 Walnut Street, 1805 Walnut Street, and finally 2000 Market Street. I even had a secret office when I was assigned to a 'secret project' ... pissed off my then "direct" manager as a BIGGER manager sent me to a different department (hey, my direct manager had my "secret office" phone mumber .. .just could NOT get the building location, floor or which department info).


----------



## WinniWoman

Wow. Linda! You got to have lunch OUT during work? We don't even have enough of a lunch break to walk into the parking lot and get into our cars as then it's time to go back in!


----------



## bluehende

vacationhopeful said:


> While I worked at DuPont, I was a contract consultant ... June, 1984 thru December, 1987. ... making very good money. I would sort paper clips if told ... just chanting in my head ... 1 dollar, 2 dollar, 3 dollar, 4, etc. with a very pleasant smile on my face. I enjoyed my paycheck at DuPont visitng many different departments ... even eating a weekly lunchs for months with a recent college kid who graduated from Duke U (like my one sister had). His last name was Copxxxxx .. I did not know the family connection .. nice guy. Just lunches at a different place each week in downtown Wilmington. My floor coworkers gave me a farewell lunch, too. More than I got at my prior company after almost 9 years as a direct employee.
> 
> 
> It was the 9 years I spent at the oil company whose corporate offices move from 1608 Walnut Street, Philadelphia to Radnor, Pa. I had "work offices" in the various Center City buildings ... first office site wss 3 Girard Plaza, then 1616 Walnut Street, 1600 Walnut Street, 1805 Walnut Street, and finally 2000 Market Street. I even had a secret office when I was assigned to a 'secret project' ... pissed off my then "direct" manager as a BIGGER manager sent me to a different department (hey, my direct manager had my "secret office" phone mumber .. .just could NOT get the building location, floor or which department info).



Old Uncle Dupey was a great company to work for.  I was a third generation guy.  I imagine as companies go it still is as Dow-DuPont if you made it through the merge.  Very few of my old friends did.  I remember when I started at the Experimental Station they bragged they had never had a layoff.  The company changed a lot when the Bronfmans sp? made their appearance due to the takeover of Conoco.  In research it was very stark to hear that our organization changed from trying to do the best science in the world to being told we would do the best research for the dollar.     Salaries slowly changed from the best in the industry to being well below the average of companies our size.  It is no wonder our best scientists left and research was squeezed to the point of ineffectiveness. This statistic is the saddest.  When I joined the company DuPont had over 60,000 employees in DE.  They now have about 3000 and many of those face job loss over the next couple years.  I have no complaints as they treated me well. I am sure I complained over every little thing, but they were little things.


----------



## bluehende

mpumilia said:


> Wow. Linda! You got to have lunch OUT during work? We don't even have enough of a lunch break to walk into the parking lot and get into our cars as then it's time to go back in!



At Dupont in the early days we had a catered luncheon once a month as a meeting.  The unwritten rule up to almost my retirement was if you schedule a lunch meeting the company provided it.  We received safety prizes when we reached goals.  Service awards were given every 5 yrs and for some it was very nice stuff.  Also every five years you were given a dinner where you could invite 5 people and it was held at the nicest restaurants.  Your choice.  For your 25 year you were allowed 25.  My fathers most prized possession was his 25 yr pin.  He had 46 and was the only person in the company that could have gotten his 50 yr award when mandatory retirement was 65.  A stroke ended that.  Also there were family picnics and christmas party's as each department got money for employee moral.  Over the years every one of those was cut out except for service awards.  My 30 yr award was nothing compared to my 5 yr award.  Pen knife at 30.....waterford crystal lamp at 5.  America and american business has changed a lot over the years.  Not always for the better.  I often wonder what we would be like if companies like the old Uncle Dupey had maintained that paternal attitude.  I am not sure that would have been viable, but I would have loved to see the results of the experiment.


----------



## artringwald

bluehende said:


> Old Uncle Dupey was a great company to work for.  I was a third generation guy.  I imagine as companies go it still is as Dow-DuPont if you made it through the merge.  Very few of my old friends did.  I remember when I started at the Experimental Station they bragged they had never had a layoff.  The company changed a lot when the Bronfmans sp? made their appearance due to the takeover of Conoco.  In research it was very stark to hear that our organization changed from trying to do the best science in the world to being told we would do the best research for the dollar.     Salaries slowly changed from the best in the industry to being well below the average of companies our size.  It is no wonder our best scientists left and research was squeezed to the point of ineffectiveness. This statistic is the saddest.  When I joined the company DuPont had over 60,000 employees in DE.  They now have about 3000 and many of those face job loss over the next couple years.  I have no complaints as they treated me well. I am sure I complained over every little thing, but they were little things.


My dad started with DuPont back in the 40's. They were so desperate for PHD chemists, they paid his tuition and salary for him to go to Princeton. He was very happy with DuPont until the 70's. My dad made some public comments about racial discrimination at DuPont, and not long after that, they transferred him from the Experimental Station to a plant in New Jersey. The 10 minute commute turned into a 45 minute commute. After putting up with that for a couple of years, he retired early and became a marriage counselor. Employees of large companies used to have good job security and employees rarely quit to take other jobs. It's harder to find job security now, and people seem to switch companies more often, by their own choice.


----------



## bluehende

artringwald said:


> My dad started with DuPont back in the 40's. They were so desperate for PHD chemists, they paid his tuition and salary for him to go to Princeton. He was very happy with DuPont until the 70's. My dad made some public comments about racial discrimination at DuPont, and not long after that, they transferred him from the Experimental Station to a plant in New Jersey. The 10 minute commute turned into a 45 minute commute. After putting up with that for a couple of years, he retired early and became a marriage counselor. Employees of large companies used to have good job security and employees rarely quit to take other jobs. It's harder to find job security now, and people seem to switch companies more often, by their own choice.



My dad started in 1927 when DuPont bought the company my father was working for.  At that time you had to be 16 to work for them but they kept my 15 yr old dad.  To really show how well they treated him.  He almost died of pneumonia a month later.  You  had to be there 1 yr to get paid for sick time.  He was out for months and was paid every day.  The plant basically shut down during the depression.  DuPont had their workers come in a couple days a week and paid them.  To say he was a company man his whole life would be an understatement.


----------



## bbodb1

bluehende said:


> My dad started in 1927 when DuPont bought the company my father was working for.  At that time you had to be 16 to work for them but they kept my 15 yr old dad.  To really show how well they treated him.  He almost died of pneumonia a month later.  You  had to be there 1 yr to get paid for sick time.  He was out for months and was paid every day.  The plant basically shut down during the depression.  DuPont had their workers come in a couple days a week and paid them.  To say he was a company man his whole life would be an understatement.



So many characteristics that used to be present in the American worker and company psyche are sorely missed today.


----------



## TravelTime

mpumilia said:


> Well, here I am- almost 62 years old. In my 13th year and the worst job I have ever had. Finally got to a point where I could coast a little bit and the company gets acquired by a management company.
> 
> Not to get into all the gory details, but they stick a guy I have worked with and known here for years in the top mgmt. position. From day one- he blocks me from our friendship on Facebook. He begins to over - exert his authority, I presume to let it be known to me that he is now my boss and he is not going to be pliable in any way, shape or form. Every email he sends to me he CC's the COO of the new company. He uses everything he knows about my opinions of various things related to the job against me. His tone in his phone calls and emails is like a knife sticking into my gut.  I get annoyed with him- he writes me up immediately. I have never been written up in my entire life, nor have I ever been fired. He has his "pet" employee in the office with us writing up our conversations. OMG- I can't take it...
> 
> I am now more than uncomfortable. He assigns me a task he knows is making me miserable and so very unhappy, with an unrealistic expectation and deadline. He also fires a 55 year old woman who has been there for 14 years- someone he never liked, but has been loyal to the company. He puts one of his "pets" into her position.
> 
> I start to get the picture. I decide there is age discrimination involved here. The new company probably wants a high energy, younger person with some of the latest marketing technology ideas. They want someone at their beckon call- ra ra and all that jazz. Wants to work 80 hours a week and no life.
> 
> I am convinced he is trying to make me quit or find grounds to fire me.
> 
> So- I decide it is time to be proactive when I told him he was harassing me and his back went up and he said he is contacting the owners. I demanded the contact info for the human resource person and spoke to her at length about age discrimination and harassment  and also about this man's past- which I won;t get into here but you would not believe it if I told you it is so crazy. Two of the things show his perception regarding my age and also there is a witness I named to it.
> 
> Since then, he is being cordial to me at least.
> 
> So at this point, the COO has sent an email to us saying she wants to address my work flow and also high tech marketing ideas sometime next week in a meeting.
> 
> The past 6 weeks have been hell for me. I find myself crying. I am so unhappy. I had 3 years to go until I could get Medicare and retire- figured I could take SS at 66- but I am just not going to make it.
> 
> I was sure they would fire me this week and was actually looking forward to the relief, but it didn't happen.
> 
> So- I have contacted a lawyer and am going to have to work on a lengthy questionnaire tomorrow. I do not want to keep my job. I just can't do it anymore and work in this situation knowing what they are trying to do to me. The only point of me getting a lawyer is to maybe get me out of the job with some kind of severance and my PTO days. Someone to do the talking for me as I get emotional and start to cry. I am afraid to try to negotiate a resignation. The other woman that they fired and was there 14 years got 6 weeks severance- but she forgot to ask about PTO days and she mistakenly signed the papers before she thought it through. At least she will also get unemployment. If I am not fired I will not.
> 
> I am not sure if I should even continue with this stupid project he has me doing as I want to blow my brains out every day doing it - it is torture for me.
> 
> I want to be out by April 1st one way or another. Or at least give notice by then or get fired by then. I haven't slept in weeks and I am in a constant nervous state. I am so done.



Hi Mary, I am so sorry about your situation. Harassment and discrimination against workers over 50 is quite common. I have friends experiencing it now. I wish you the best in managing through this diffuclt time.


----------



## WinniWoman

TravelTime said:


> Hi Mary, I am so sorry about your situation. Harassment and discrimination against workers over 50 is quite common. I have friends experiencing it now. I wish you the best in managing through this diffuclt time.




Thanks. It's so weird. Never thought it would happen to me. Heck- I still feel like my old 40 year old self in my brain. LOL!


----------



## bluehende

mpumilia said:


> Thanks. It's so weird. Never thought it would happen to me. Heck- I still feel like my old 40 year old self in my brain. LOL!




In my mind I am still 21 until I try to get out of the chair.


----------



## Bwolf

Keep plugging away!


----------



## Sugarcubesea

Panina said:


> My aunt worked for a Japanese cosmetic company until she retired at 65.  They had a large work force that worked there for many years until retirement.



This is the main reasons I took this job offer vs another one I had because I wanted to be able to work till 65


----------



## WinniWoman

Well- my job was listed on Indeed.com the day before I went on vacation. It is listed as a part-time job with responsibilities I should have as the so called- Marketing Director they claim I am, though I have yet to see the re-written job description for me.

Right now he is using me- I know he is- and I think it will only be a matter of time. We just lost a very big account because the group joined a mega group and will be keeping all their testing within now instead of referring to us.

He has had it in for me from day one- I am convinced it is age and also that he wanted to save some money on salary. I just don't get why he didn't just let me go from the get go - he could have said they were just downsizing. SMH...

I am just going with the flow. Every day now I do my job - I don't get stressed. I tell myself I don't give a Sh%^&#" and get through it.


----------



## bluehende

I always get nervous when I see this thread pop up.  Hang in there and enjoy your vacation.


----------



## am1

bluehende said:


> I always get nervous when I see this thread pop up.  Hang in there and enjoy your vacation.



Me as well.  Long term it seems like it would be a relief.


----------



## WinniWoman

bluehende said:


> I always get nervous when I see this thread pop up.  Hang in there and enjoy your vacation.



Vacation is over. This is what I came back to. This and 2 power outages in 100 degree heat. Plus another issue with our security system caused by their techs I won't even get into. Sorry I came home.


----------



## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> Me as well.  Long term it seems like it would be a relief.



Yes- in many ways. It is just the loss of a paycheck that is scary to me. Life will change big time.


----------



## DaveNV

mpumilia said:


> Vacation is over. This is what I came back to. This and 2 power outages in 100 degree heat. Plus another issue with our security system caused by their techs I won't even get into. Sorry I came home.



You need to go back on vacation.  So sorry all this is happening to you.

Dave


----------



## WinniWoman

DaveNW said:


> You need to go back on vacation.  So sorry all this is happening to you.
> 
> Dave




You said it! I should have stayed on my floaty lounger on Lake Champlain and drifted into Canada and declared Asylum! I was right there on the border!


----------



## bluehende

mpumilia said:


> You said it! I should have stayed on my floaty lounger on Lake Champlain and drifted into Canada and declared Asylum! I was right there on the border!



Are you sure you can afford the tariffs on you?


----------



## bbodb1

One hundred degrees in your area has got to be making a lot of people very grumpy.


----------



## Panina

mpumilia said:


> Yes- in many ways. It is just the loss of a paycheck that is scary to me. Life will change big time.


Sometimes life changes big time but when we look back there was a reason and faith takes us where we need to go. It doesn’t diminish it sucks while it is happening.  I feel so bad you have to go thru this, it is just not right.


----------



## WinniWoman

I just can't wait until today to see what lies he is going to tell me to my face.

I assume he put the ad in while I was away figuring I would not see it. Doubt it was a coincidence. The other woman he fired gets email alerts from Indeed.com and she is the one who told me.

No matter. When I read the description I knew that no way this is an "additional" marketing position. This new person will be doing my job the way I should be doing it right now- but he is not allowing me to do. He has me in a "holding" pattern- having me postpone certain tasks I should be doing right now and giving me grunt work to do to get things ready for the next person.

Every so often he can't conceal it- the fact that he doesn't want me there comes through in little things he blurts out. The higher echelon has given him autonomy to do what he wants and he is hell bent on this. What is really humiliating is several other people he surrounds himself with and confides in- my coworkers whom I always liked- also know this and I have to work with them. Can you imagine if any of the people in our clients offices - who have known me all these years-also have seen that ad?

Oh. well. Like Linda said- $1, $2. $3.....at least for today.


----------



## Bwolf

Apparently your boss is a Ginger guy, Mary Ann.  

Take it with class, do the unemployment thing, and here's hoping you find something better fairly soon.


----------



## WinniWoman

Bwolf said:


> Apparently your boss is a Ginger guy, Mary Ann.
> 
> Take it with class, do the unemployment thing, and here's hoping you find something better fairly soon.



LOL! Pardon my ignorance, but what is a Ginger guy?

I doubt I will be able to find something else around these parts, especially considering my age, and frankly, I don't think I have it in me anymore. I am so done. My hope is my husband keeps his job and health insurance for us.

But- I shall see. One thing at a time. When all is said and done I have to clear my head first and my head doesn't clear easily! LOL!


----------



## Timeshare Von

Mary Ann . . . I've been following this saga . . . sadly.

I wish things could be better for you but in the end, I think you'll find something more rewarding and without the hassle of a bad boss.  In the meantime, the documentation advice is good.  Usually when we as employees feel something is amiss, it is.  And documenting to protect your interests is critical.

If nothing else, when they do terminate you, it can put you in a position of strength to leverage against the company to maximize the termination/severance benefits.

Best wishes that it doesn't linger forever.  At some point, you just need to be able to move on and forget about that place.


----------



## am1

Are you looking for another job?  Maybe that is the solution although not easy.


----------



## DaveNV

Gee, if they do terminate you, wouldn't it be a shame if those big clients were "somehow" notified of the underhanded dealings of this manager, and the company that allowed him to do this to such a great employee?  It would be "terrible" if those clients took their business to a competing company. 

Dave


----------



## bogey21

mpumilia said:


> Well- my job was listed on Indeed.com the day before I went on vacation. It is listed as a part-time job with responsibilities I should have as the so called- Marketing Director they claim I am, though I have yet to see the re-written job description for me.



Understand I am no lawyer but I was once President of a large bank so I have a good feel for the position you find yourself in.  I have a thought that may or may not help when/if they terminate you.

If you are 100% certain that you are going to be terminated, you could officially apply for the job listed on Indeed.com?   If they offer it to you and you accept, you will no doubt be forfeiting whatever severance they would pay you when they terminate you but based on what I have been reading there may be none anyway.  In addition you will probably be giving up your healthcare but that seems like it has a short life anyway.  If they don't offer it to you and terminate you, it may buttress your legal position.  If,on the other hand, they offer you the part time position and you don't take it, you will have less of a leg to stand on legally.  Just a thought.

George


----------



## Panina

mpumilia said:


> Well- my job was listed on Indeed.com the day before I went on vacation. It is listed as a part-time job with responsibilities I should have as the so called- Marketing Director they claim I am, though I have yet to see the re-written job description for me.
> 
> Right now he is using me- I know he is- and I think it will only be a matter of time. We just lost a very big account because the group joined a mega group and will be keeping all their testing within now instead of referring to us.
> 
> He has had it in for me from day one- I am convinced it is age and also that he wanted to save some money on salary. I just don't get why he didn't just let me go from the get go - he could have said they were just downsizing. SMH...
> 
> I am just going with the flow. Every day now I do my job - I don't get stressed. I tell myself I don't give a Sh%^&#" and get through it.


I have been thinking about this. If it was me I would copy the Indeed.com posting and email HR and ask.


----------



## WinniWoman

bogey21 said:


> Understand I am no lawyer but I was once President of a large bank so I have a good feel for the position you find yourself in.  I have a thought that may or may not help when/if they terminate you.
> 
> If you are 100% certain that you are going to be terminated, you could officially apply for the job listed on Indeed.com?   If they offer it to you and you accept, you will no doubt be forfeiting whatever severance they would pay you when they terminate you but based on what I have been reading there may be none anyway.  In addition you will probably be giving up your healthcare but that seems like it has a short life anyway.  If they don't offer it to you and terminate you, it may buttress your legal position.  If,on the other hand, they offer you the part time position and you don't take it, you will have less of a leg to stand on legally.  Just a thought.
> 
> George



I doubt he would offer me the job. LOL! Heck- I don't even have a resume! Ha! Ha! I was adamant that this would be my last job. Just that I thought I could maybe try to hang in there until 65.

Also- I have health insurance through my husband's job, not mine. But when he turns 66 and retires, I will still need it. But his job security is not good either now.

To make things even more weird, today we had a new employee orientation because of being acquired by another company and now we employees are supposed to get an email to fill in everything again- W4, I9 (and all that new hire stuff). Can't make this stuff up..


----------



## WinniWoman

Panina said:


> I have been thinking about this. If it was me I would copy the Indeed.com posting and email HR and ask.




The new company uses a company called Extensis as I just found out at the orientation. So they are essentially HR. That means the woman I spoke to way back when about the age discrimination could not possibly have been an HR person. She said she doubled as one- was actually a project manager. The plot thickens...

I will see what happens- go with the flow at this point.


----------



## WinniWoman

DaveNW said:


> Gee, if they do terminate you, wouldn't it be a shame if those big clients were "somehow" notified of the underhanded dealings of this manager, and the company that allowed him to do this to such a great employee?  It would be "terrible" if those clients took their business to a competing company.
> 
> Dave




I intend to say "goodbye" to our clients one way or the other for sure.


----------



## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> Are you looking for another job?  Maybe that is the solution although not easy.



 Right now, no.


----------



## WinniWoman

Timeshare Von said:


> Mary Ann . . . I've been following this saga . . . sadly.
> 
> I wish things could be better for you but in the end, I think you'll find something more rewarding and without the hassle of a bad boss.  In the meantime, the documentation advice is good.  Usually when we as employees feel something is amiss, it is.  And documenting to protect your interests is critical.
> 
> If nothing else, when they do terminate you, it can put you in a position of strength to leverage against the company to maximize the termination/severance benefits.
> 
> Best wishes that it doesn't linger forever.  At some point, you just need to be able to move on and forget about that place.




Yup. Right. Thanks.


----------



## pedro47

To the OP, you should apply for that part time job using a difference female name, with fictional employers and  a post office address?

Plus, may sure your dates for  finishing  high school or college are after 1982.


----------



## bluehende

mpumilia said:


> I doubt he would offer me the job. LOL! Heck- I don't even have a resume! Ha! Ha! I was adamant that this would be my last job. Just that I thought I could maybe try to hang in there until 65.
> 
> Also- I have health insurance through my husband's job, not mine. But when he turns 66 and retires, I will still need it. But his job security is not good either now.
> 
> To make things even more weird, today we had a new employee orientation because of being acquired by another company and now we employees are supposed to get an email to fill in everything again- W4, I9 (and all that new hire stuff). Can't make this stuff up..



Any chance this acquisition will change things?


----------



## Timeshare Von

pedro47 said:


> To the OP, you should apply for that part time job using a difference female name, with fictional employers and  a post office address?
> 
> Plus, may sure your dates for  finishing  high school or college are after 1982.



Most employers know to refrain from asking school dates because age can be inferred, making it illegal to use the information if provided.


----------



## WinniWoman

bluehende said:


> Any chance this acquisition will change things?




No- the new company is the company I complained to about the boss months ago. They took over officially in February. How they made him the director almost no one can understand.


----------



## WinniWoman

pedro47 said:


> To the OP, you should apply for that part time job using a difference female name, with fictional employers and  a post office address?
> 
> Plus, may sure your dates for  finishing  high school or college are after 1982.




Funny you should say that- a friend of mine said the same thing- use her name. LOL!


----------



## Sugarcubesea

mpumilia said:


> I doubt he would offer me the job. LOL! Heck- I don't even have a resume! Ha! Ha! I was adamant that this would be my last job. Just that I thought I could maybe try to hang in there until 65.
> 
> Also- I have health insurance through my husband's job, not mine. But when he turns 66 and retires, I will still need it. But his job security is not good either now.
> 
> To make things even more weird, today we had a new employee orientation because of being acquired by another company and now we employees are supposed to get an email to fill in everything again- W4, I9 (and all that new hire stuff). Can't make this stuff up..


Wow,  that’s got to be so hard going through the new hire orientation because of the company ownership change. I’m so sorry you have to go through this.  Today was my anniversary day at my company and I was thinking of you.  Take good care


----------



## Patri

Timeshare Von said:


> Most employers know to refrain from asking school dates because age can be inferred, making it illegal to use the information if provided.


Some online applications will not let you advance unless you put in that information. Bugs me.


----------



## jackio

I still use an AOL email (I know, I know!) and I have had HR people tell me that they assume you are old if they see an AOL address.


----------



## VacationForever

Patri said:


> Some online applications will not let you advance unless you put in that information. Bugs me.


If so, they are certainly breaking the law and EEOC will go after them if a disgruntled employee or applicant raises it to EEOC.


----------



## am1

I feel date of birth should be on resumes.  Let the person who the company wants get the job.  In the end they will ballpark your age anyways.


----------



## VacationForever

am1 said:


> I feel date of birth should be on resumes.  Let the person who the company wants get the job.  In the end they will ballpark your age anyways.


EEOC prohibits discrimination of age so any appearance of that discrimination by the company can lead to huge penalties.  The employer is guilty until proven innocent.


----------



## billymach4

I have seen resume's from India where it is common for the candidate to list single male, female.


----------



## Bwolf

mpumilia said:


> LOL! Pardon my ignorance, but what is a Ginger guy?
> 
> I doubt I will be able to find something else around these parts, especially considering my age, and frankly, I don't think I have it in me anymore. I am so done. My hope is my husband keeps his job and health insurance for us.
> 
> But- I shall see. One thing at a time. When all is said and done I have to clear my head first and my head doesn't clear easily! LOL!




Gilligan's Island.  Ginger or Mary Ann.


----------



## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> I feel date of birth should be on resumes.  Let the person who the company wants get the job.  In the end they will ballpark your age anyways.




Once you have a video or in person interview the employer will pretty much be able to do a ball park estimate of your age anyway. But- having to put it on a resume before even having the opportunity to try for the job isn't right imo.

Then again, for certain jobs- like being an airline pilot- I can understand why the employer would want and/or need to weed out some applicants based on age


----------



## pedro47

am1 said:


> I feel date of birth should be on resumes.  Let the person who the company wants get the job.  In the end they will ballpark your age anyways.



This is against EEOC Law. Point Blank.


----------



## Patri

am1 said:


> I feel date of birth should be on resumes.  Let the person who the company wants get the job.  In the end they will ballpark your age anyways.


Some people will never get interviews if applications are judged on age, young OR old. The example I cited was with a large regional healthcare system, which floored me. They have all sorts of jobs and plenty of turnover in some, so why do this? When I was interested in one position a few years ago, I was qualified, but never got a call. The young people they hired since work a short time and move on. I would have been in that category of staying put until retirement.


----------



## am1

pedro47 said:


> This is against EEOC Law. Point Blank.


Does not make it right.  At least not to me.  Companies should be able to hire who they want for jobs.  Companies need to become and stay competitive.  They are not chartities.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Back in the "dark ages" us woman had limited "threat" position .. just our female-ways and the secretaries-grapeline.

I was a member of a class action sex discrimination at an oil company (5 refineries, running a large oil pipeline system, oil tankers plus a shipbuilding company, and oil drilling fields & platforms) with the class being "EXEMPT" employee (NOT in management .. just salaried). The settlement included three "week long" job trainings sessions of our choice during the work time over day in next 18 months.

I worked directly for a manager (Harvard grad) who had no use for _any_ professional woman in his office or chain of command .. and WOULD ONLY hire white Angelo-Saxon males who graduated from an Ivy League schools.  I finally got ANNOYED after being asked to train yet ANOTHER (the 5th or 6th guy) newly hired "peer" male (yes, all white males ... no "minority class" members). So I tracked down my manager's manager (U of Penn) at a bar later. I had 2 college majors - math (Stetson U) & computer science (Rutgers U) plus 15 credit hours in Accounting due to class work at both universities. I told him "If your_ boy_ Jonathan, hires ONE more white IVY LEAGUE Anglo-Saxon male graduate, I am going to sue YOU all." He looked at me and said ... I was all wrong. Jonathan was NOT doing that. I asked him to "Name _just one_ new hire of his, NOT from an Ivy League school." He thought for a couple of minutes and said, "Tyler" proudly. I immediately answered "When did Cornell drop out of the Ivy League?" He looked disgusted and threw money on the bar .. then walked out. My Harvard graduated manager had also hired Yale, Dartmouth, U of Penn plus the Cornell U graduate (5 Ivies from 5 different Ivy schools .. only missed 3 Ivy schools). And NO females. And NO ethics or minorities either.

The next morning, this top manager walked by my cubical, looked at me and nodding to me on his way into Jonathan's office, closed his door, sat down in his guest chair and put both of his feet up on the Jonathan's desk and lit up a new cigerette .... POWER MOVE showing "I am your BOSS MAN!". Left after he finished his 'proclaimation' ... order of NO NEW HIRES  .. period. Just inside of that one short cigerette he smoked. And as he marched back to his office at the other end of the floor, looked again at me in my cubical with a smile & nod. No more new hires or interviewees for Jonathan's group for the next 2+ years. I still sat in my cubical and the Ivy League guys still had the walled offices with doors. And I still had to intro them to different departments & plants plus answer their questions on Light Refined Inventory, the refineries & pipelines. Then the oil company had a 20% layoff ... late November, 1982. I got "riff'ed"

*TODAY *.... My biggest memory of those years is from the movie "Streets of Philadelphia .. the boarded up highrise on camera as the PHL City Hall comes into view. My first 3 years of employment was on the 14th floor of THAT building .. looking down on the Philadelphia City Hall complex.

I also have no DEFINED PENSION either. DID get my MBA degree (90% of course cost, books & fees paid with the 1 year severance package of 50% salary plus medical insurance paid ... thanks to former oil company employer!). Then after my MBA graduation, worked 3.5 years as a contract consultant at E I DuPont de Nemours ... at 3+ times my former company salary. And brought a few rental properties during those years (had brought 3 homes while employed at the oil company - my first 1200 sq ft rancher, my mountain cabin and newest, my BIG 4 bdr bi-level ... which I HAD to trade for an old smaller 2bdr rancher the month after I was RIF) .. expanding to MORE units during my contracting days. And I have NOT worked a 'real company job' since 1987  ... been 30+ years. 

And I measure my NOW co-workers/contractor by the decades. And their family generations and our family interactions (my dad worked with one coworker's stepfather at the city level both part-time jobs).

But Sun Oil Co is gone (Engery Transfer Partnership brought the oil company for the pipeline network, then sold off the refineries & ship yard). And DuPont is now owned by Montsanto  ... with many plants & offices also gone (my Dad worked 41 years for DuPont). And the EPA is paying for those plant's environmental cleanups. My dad's plant explored (went BOOM when I was in HS) ... chemical plants did that. And I looked twice (maybe) at the Facebook page for Sun Oil retirees .... but NOT surprised that it is mostly males from the refineries who post. I guess the women employees are MORE like me ... we lived thru our years of employment. .. choosing to NOT revisit those times.

BUT I would rather be looking at my monthly pension check. IMHO, there was NO RECESSION for the any oil companies in the late 1982. It was having to fund 6 class years of the defined pensions plans on January 1, 1983 .... mandated by a change in Federal Law .... reducing private pension vesting time period from 10 years to 5 years on January 1st. I did 8 years 9 months ... months shy of a vested pension benefit .... $2,000 YEARLY IRA contribution is not much even today with compounding.

And that is WHY most private companies do NOT have pension plans anymore ... not financially viable with 5 year vesting required.

Doesn't the military require 20 years of service for retirement payment (pension)?


----------



## bogey21

Everyplace was not that way.  From 1985 until I retired in 2000 I was President of a large Bank and about half my Officers (and they were not low level Officers) were women and were paid just like their male counterparts.  Why was this?  Easy answer is that they were good and they were loyal to the Bank.   And yes, we had a very nice Defined Benefit Pension Plan.  5 year vesting didn't matter as almost all of my key employees stayed with the Bank until they retired.  But alas after I retired the Defined Benefit Pension Plan was phased out.  Sign of the times, I guess...

George

PS I will confess that I had no Officers who were minorities.  It was not by design.  It just never seemed to happen...


----------



## bbodb1

Bwolf said:


> Gilligan's Island.  Ginger or Mary Ann.



You forgot an option.


----------



## DaveNV

am1 said:


> I feel date of birth should be on resumes.  Let the person who the company wants get the job.  In the end they will ballpark your age anyways.



This is why I only list the last ten or so years of experience on my resume, and I do not list my age.  Get me in the door, and I'll convince you to hire me, if I'm a good fit.  List my age on the resume, and you'll decide without meeting me that I'm too old.  I do not look, act, or feel my age.  When people find out my actual age, they think I'm lying to them.  Even I have trouble believing I'm this age - in my head I'm about 25 years younger.

I work in IT, a *VERY* ageist profession.  I've learned that experience from twenty years ago doesn't apply anymore.  Employers want to know what I know that is current, pertinent experience.  In the IT world, if you rest on your laurels, the industry will pass you by - quickly.  For example, I can program in a dozen computer languages, but nobody wants or needs them anymore.  (COBOL, Fortran, Assembler, anyone? Anyone??)

When I applied at my current employer, a busy regional hospital, the IT Manager was about my age.  She and I hit it off well during the preliminary interview, and I was called for a final interview.  The two people who worked for her who conducted the final interview were about half my age.  I was very professional, kept the interview on topic, discussing my experience and what I could bring to the organization.  The other final candidate was a guy also about half my age, and I was told by someone else who was there that he kept taking his final interview off topic, straying off into talking about how to play a certain video game and complaining about how he was fired by his jerk of a previous employer.  The two guys recommended she hire the younger guy, claiming he'd "have more energy" than me, and would be a harder worker.  She felt they were wrong, and hired me instead.  The two employees got mad, and both quit without giving notice, because she was such a "terrible manager."

I started working there a few weeks later, and on the first day, the guy training me injured his back, and went to the hospital mid-day.  He didn't return for nearly two months.  I learned the job on my own, and it was an insane time. But my Navy experience showed me failure was not an option, and I got through it. Not to leave me all alone, the Manager also brought in that other final candidate, as a temp employee, to help me out.  I worked circles around him.  He was lazy, disappearing without accounting for himself for hours at a time, and generally proved that he was, in fact, NOT the better choice.  When his temp time ended and he left, the manager took me aside, and said, "I made the right choice, hiring you."  I felt pretty vindicated.  Age discrimination is real.

It's been over ten years, and I'm still there, although in a different IT position now. That Manager has moved on.  The other final candidate and I became unlikely friends, and he has been mainly unemployed over this ten years.  He'll get a job, and within a few months (or less) is unemployed again.  It's never his fault, of course. 

Dave


----------



## PigsDad

bbodb1 said:


> You forgot an option.


Lovey???

Kurt


----------



## DaveNV

PigsDad said:


> Lovey???
> 
> Kurt



She was married.  That would be cheating. 

Dave


----------



## VacationForever

Employers are not "allowed" to discriminate based on age.  The process is to only collect date of birth information AFTER making an offer.  The offer is contingent on background check.  Only when collecting background check info DOB is filled.  If after background check you get rejected, you need to pursue what is it in the background check that results in rejection.

Like DaveNW, my skills were in IT but then when I went into "management" for more than 2 decades, I lost all technical skills.  The only thing I have to show for is years of management... I do look at least 10 years younger than my age but then I would want to show the years of experience.  It's kind of a catch 22.  Right now, not working for money sounds pretty good.  Office politics, not-so-nice colleagues and bad bosses are just not my cup of tea.


----------



## lockewong

Timeshare Von said:


> Mary Ann . . . I've been following this saga . . . sadly.
> 
> I wish things could be better for you but in the end, I think you'll find something more rewarding and without the hassle of a bad boss.  In the meantime, the documentation advice is good.  Usually when we as employees feel something is amiss, it is.  And documenting to protect your interests is critical.
> 
> If nothing else, when they do terminate you, it can put you in a position of strength to leverage against the company to maximize the termination/severance benefits.
> 
> Best wishes that it doesn't linger forever.  At some point, you just need to be able to move on and forget about that place.


Please document and print what you have before the inevitable comes about.  Put your information and contacts on a flash drive and bring it home. If they surprise you and fire you, you may only have an hour to leave and been watched and escorted out.  You will not have time to keep your documentation or your contacts in the field.  Good luck.


----------



## Icc5

mpumilia said:


> Well, here I am- almost 62 years old. In my 13th year and the worst job I have ever had. Finally got to a point where I could coast a little bit and the company gets acquired by a management company.
> 
> Not to get into all the gory details, but they stick a guy I have worked with and known here for years in the top mgmt. position. From day one- he blocks me from our friendship on Facebook. He begins to over - exert his authority, I presume to let it be known to me that he is now my boss and he is not going to be pliable in any way, shape or form. Every email he sends to me he CC's the COO of the new company. He uses everything he knows about my opinions of various things related to the job against me. His tone in his phone calls and emails is like a knife sticking into my gut.  I get annoyed with him- he writes me up immediately. I have never been written up in my entire life, nor have I ever been fired. He has his "pet" employee in the office with us writing up our conversations. OMG- I can't take it...
> 
> I am now more than uncomfortable. He assigns me a task he knows is making me miserable and so very unhappy, with an unrealistic expectation and deadline. He also fires a 55 year old woman who has been there for 14 years- someone he never liked, but has been loyal to the company. He puts one of his "pets" into her position.
> 
> I start to get the picture. I decide there is age discrimination involved here. The new company probably wants a high energy, younger person with some of the latest marketing technology ideas. They want someone at their beckon call- ra ra and all that jazz. Wants to work 80 hours a week and no life.
> 
> I am convinced he is trying to make me quit or find grounds to fire me.
> 
> So- I decide it is time to be proactive when I told him he was harassing me and his back went up and he said he is contacting the owners. I demanded the contact info for the human resource person and spoke to her at length about age discrimination and harassment  and also about this man's past- which I won;t get into here but you would not believe it if I told you it is so crazy. Two of the things show his perception regarding my age and also there is a witness I named to it.
> 
> Since then, he is being cordial to me at least.
> 
> So at this point, the COO has sent an email to us saying she wants to address my work flow and also high tech marketing ideas sometime next week in a meeting.
> 
> The past 6 weeks have been hell for me. I find myself crying. I am so unhappy. I had 3 years to go until I could get Medicare and retire- figured I could take SS at 66- but I am just not going to make it.
> 
> I was sure they would fire me this week and was actually looking forward to the relief, but it didn't happen.
> 
> So- I have contacted a lawyer and am going to have to work on a lengthy questionnaire tomorrow. I do not want to keep my job. I just can't do it anymore and work in this situation knowing what they are trying to do to me. The only point of me getting a lawyer is to maybe get me out of the job with some kind of severance and my PTO days. Someone to do the talking for me as I get emotional and start to cry. I am afraid to try to negotiate a resignation. The other woman that they fired and was there 14 years got 6 weeks severance- but she forgot to ask about PTO days and she mistakenly signed the papers before she thought it through. At least she will also get unemployment. If I am not fired I will not.
> 
> I am not sure if I should even continue with this stupid project he has me doing as I want to blow my brains out every day doing it - it is torture for me.
> 
> I want to be out by April 1st one way or another. Or at least give notice by then or get fired by then. I haven't slept in weeks and I am in a constant nervous state. I am so done.


PLEASE READ::: ANYONE LOSING A JOB AFTER LONG WORKING AT IT.

On 4th of July (we always have a big BBQ at my house as it is another brother's birthday) my youngest brother whom recently turned 57 committed suicide after accepting a great buyout.  He had 27 years in and the company was reorganizing and he was told he would probably have to be let go if he didn't take the buyout.  He was given 2 weeks pay for each year in and it was a very high paying position.
The buyout was only a few weeks ago.
Background:  No debt, house paid off, no real bills, wife a teacher, very well off financially, owner of another business and very well organized.   In the family he was youngest but pretty much considered most responsible and business smart along with me (5 of us older siblings).
He felt worthless no matter what any of us said to him.  He had gone to a Dr. and on medication for depression.  His son just paid for my brother,brother's wife, son and son's girlfriend for a great cruise that they all enjoyed and got back from 3 days earlier.
His wife got up in morning of the 4th and went for a walk.  My brother went into backyard, put a towel over his head and proceeded to shoot himself.
IF YOU HAVE TO LEAVE A JOB AFTER WORKING THERE A LONG TIME : Get Councilling!
I repeat GET HELP.  You might think it will be fine but many people feel defined by their job and tie their worth to their work.  Don't let anyone take that risk, see to it they get help.
Sorry, but my heart is broken, my family, his family are all hurting and I don't want to ever see/hear this happen to another person.
Bart


----------



## DaveNV

Icc5 said:


> Sorry, but my heart is broken, my family, his family are all hurting and I don't want to ever see/hear this happen to another person.
> Bart




Bart, I am so very sorry for your loss.  There aren't words for this. It is sad to think things were at the point that your brother felt this was his only option. I'm very, very sorry.

Dave


----------



## Egret1986

How tragic, Bart.  I'm so sorry for your family's great loss.

Good advice and warning to others.


----------



## bbodb1

PigsDad said:


> Lovey???
> 
> Kurt



Both.


----------



## bbodb1

DaveNW said:


> ...  For example, I can program in a dozen computer languages, but nobody wants or needs them anymore.  (*COBOL, Fortran, Assembler*, anyone? Anyone??)
> 
> ... He was lazy, disappearing without accounting for himself for hours at a time, and generally proved that he was, in fact, NOT the better choice.  When his temp time ended and he left, the manager took me aside, and said, "I made the right choice, hiring you."  I felt pretty vindicated.  *Age discrimination is real*.
> 
> ...Dave



Those were the good days.....and you are very correct about the other point.


----------



## bluehende

Icc5 said:


> PLEASE READ::: ANYONE LOSING A JOB AFTER LONG WORKING AT IT.
> 
> On 4th of July (we always have a big BBQ at my house as it is another brother's birthday) my youngest brother whom recently turned 57 committed suicide after accepting a great buyout.  He had 27 years in and the company was reorganizing and he was told he would probably have to be let go if he didn't take the buyout.  He was given 2 weeks pay for each year in and it was a very high paying position.
> The buyout was only a few weeks ago.
> Background:  No debt, house paid off, no real bills, wife a teacher, very well off financially, owner of another business and very well organized.   In the family he was youngest but pretty much considered most responsible and business smart along with me (5 of us older siblings).
> He felt worthless no matter what any of us said to him.  He had gone to a Dr. and on medication for depression.  His son just paid for my brother,brother's wife, son and son's girlfriend for a great cruise that they all enjoyed and got back from 3 days earlier.
> His wife got up in morning of the 4th and went for a walk.  My brother went into backyard, put a towel over his head and proceeded to shoot himself.
> IF YOU HAVE TO LEAVE A JOB AFTER WORKING THERE A LONG TIME : Get Councilling!
> I repeat GET HELP.  You might think it will be fine but many people feel defined by their job and tie their worth to their work.  Don't let anyone take that risk, see to it they get help.
> Sorry, but my heart is broken, my family, his family are all hurting and I don't want to ever see/hear this happen to another person.
> Bart




So sad for your loss.  Everyone should take head.  Our research organization had 3 layoffs.  With a couple hundred gone there were 2 suicides so this warning is important.  Both of these individuals you would have thought would have been fine.  A job loss is very traumatic and triggers all sorts of emotions and problems.  Especially depression.  Too many people have their self worth caught up in their career.


----------



## pedro47

Bart, I feel your pain and loss of your brother. A brother love is so special, a brother is a friend for life. Anyone going thru a laid off after twenty (20) years needs professional help IMHO.


----------



## Panina

Icc5 said:


> PLEASE READ::: ANYONE LOSING A JOB AFTER LONG WORKING AT IT.
> 
> On 4th of July (we always have a big BBQ at my house as it is another brother's birthday) my youngest brother whom recently turned 57 committed suicide after accepting a great buyout.  He had 27 years in and the company was reorganizing and he was told he would probably have to be let go if he didn't take the buyout.  He was given 2 weeks pay for each year in and it was a very high paying position.
> The buyout was only a few weeks ago.
> Background:  No debt, house paid off, no real bills, wife a teacher, very well off financially, owner of another business and very well organized.   In the family he was youngest but pretty much considered most responsible and business smart along with me (5 of us older siblings).
> He felt worthless no matter what any of us said to him.  He had gone to a Dr. and on medication for depression.  His son just paid for my brother,brother's wife, son and son's girlfriend for a great cruise that they all enjoyed and got back from 3 days earlier.
> His wife got up in morning of the 4th and went for a walk.  My brother went into backyard, put a towel over his head and proceeded to shoot himself.
> IF YOU HAVE TO LEAVE A JOB AFTER WORKING THERE A LONG TIME : Get Councilling!
> I repeat GET HELP.  You might think it will be fine but many people feel defined by their job and tie their worth to their work.  Don't let anyone take that risk, see to it they get help.
> Sorry, but my heart is broken, my family, his family are all hurting and I don't want to ever see/hear this happen to another person.
> Bart


Bart, I am so sorry for your loss. I know how hard this was for you to share but it is out here now to help others.


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## lockewong

So very sorry for your loss.  You highlight a very important issue when you have placed yourself emotionally and professionally with your career and feel devalued.


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## Chrispee

I’m very sorry for the loss of your brother!

If I know anything about mpumilia from reading her posts, she is not defined as a person by her job.


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## silentg

Sorry for your loss Bart.


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## VacationForever

Sorry for your loss, Bart.


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## rhonda

Bart, so sorry for family's loss.  There aren't words to describe.  Thanks for the sage advice.  {{Hugs}} to you and yours.


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## Icc5

Thank you everybody.  Right now I'm angry because I believe we did what we could to help.  Jerry was the last person any of us could imagine doing this.  I now understand how depression can make someone different.  Jerry was one person for 57 years and then became lost in a total fog.  Most people would have felt they were on top of the world having done what he had done and where he was in life as a parent and financially.  In our last conversation he pissed me off by saying to me not to be so smug that anyone could be in a bad situation.  This was a misinterpation of something I mentioned to him.
He had agreed with everyone that talked to him about how good he had it even if he just decided never to work again that financially he had no worries and then at the end of the conversation it went back to everything bad and what ifs.  What if the housing crashed, what if the market collapsed,what if,if,if?
Entire reason for my post is many people see themselves by their job, especially if you have done it for a long time and drive yourselves to success.  Whether you know it or not you might be more that person that identifies yourself with that job so if for whatever reason the job is gone you feel like your life is over.  If you know anyone like that go with them to see they get help.  After the fact is too late.


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## SmithOp

Sorry to hear about your brother Bart, condolences.  Do not beat yourself up about final conversations or not doing enough to prevent it.  

I read an article in this months New York magazine about suicide, sometime there is a progression that can be averted and sometimes its just impulsive with no warning.

I too received a good buyout package 7 yrs ago at 57 and went through a depression right after.  I worked as IT project manager.  My Dr wanted to put me on meds but I resisted and worked through it but I felt lousy for at least a year.  I finally was able to come to terms knowing that I got a great deal and they did me a favor, I was burned out at work anyway.  I still think about what ifs financially.  My PM training and experience made me want to be in control of everything, felt like life was spinning and I had no control.  Now I just go with the flow and enjoy the life I have, work doesn’t define me any more.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## dsmrp

So very sorry for your loss.  I have a family member with off/on depression, and know it takes a long time to find the right medication and the right counselor. Your advice to get counseling for people suddenly without a job is right on. 
People who are depressed may sound rational and reasonable, but inside they are in emotional upheaval and pain.

Not many companies provide outplacement counseling, but they should especially for people in high positions such as your brother.


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## Glynda

How tragic for all of you, Bart.  So sorry for your loss.


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## rapmarks

So sorry for your loss.  I see now that is what my sister is going through, losing her job at age 62, unable to find anything, no interests, moping around.


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## Jan M.

Bart I'm so sorry for your loss. 

My husband got involuntarily retired from his job five weeks before his 61st birthday. He knew the company was going to be making cuts to make them lean and mean to be able to sell the company but he never thought his job was in jeopardy because what he does is very specialized. And because he wasn't worried he never said anything to me about what was going on with his company. The week before it happened he had his annual performance review and got glowing numbers. It happened on my birthday. He called me at work saying how sorry he was and that he just lost his job. I told him from the start that I wasn't worried because I knew that God doesn't close one door without opening another. That I was absolutely sure there was something better coming for us. My husband was reassured because he knows that when I get such strong feelings about something in our lives I've never been wrong. But he was still devastated and kept saying he was fired. He wasn't and nothing I said made a difference to get him to quit saying that. Because he wouldn't stop saying he was fired I told him we weren't going to tell people until after our son's wedding because it would overshadow their wedding. Our son, our only child, was getting married on my husband's birthday. 

We talked about how losing a job is a major life event and can be as hard to deal with as a divorce or losing a loved one. We talked about him losing his identity as the main provider for our family as I had only gone back to work when our son was finishing high school to help pay his college expenses and give myself something to do. And that he had never really been without a job since he first started working before he was even 16. My job was demanding and I worked long hours so even though we talked a lot it would have helped it I was home more with him. What made things really hard for my husband was that he was unaware of how often this happens to people over 50 now. He didn't entirely believe me when I explained that to him until he met other men in his situation at unemployment office career counseling sessions he was required to attend.

We were in no financial position for him to be able to take his pension at 61 which he was eligible to do because it would have meant taking much less than he did by waiting. I was working and he was able to collect unemployment so financially we were okay but my job had no health insurance so we needed him to find another job. After the wedding he started really looking. As I said what he does is specialized and he had no problem finding another job. But he was still really depressed. We lived in Pennsylvania not far from Pittsburgh and had planned to move to Florida when he retired from that company. I urged him to look for something in Florida so we didn't have to wait to get away from the cold and snow. He got offered a job in Florida in the same area we vacationed in for a number of years and really liked. I was excited about that and it made him feel a little better. But he was still so depressed he had a hard time deciding to accept the job in Florida. I was able to book him into the timeshares, packed the car with everything I could think of to get him set up in an apartment if he would need to find one and told him it would cost us nothing but the gas money to at least try the job. That if after trying it for a couple of weeks he wasn't happy he could turn around and come home. By the end of the first week he called and said sell the house we're moving to Florida. Which was exactly what I was sure would happen. 

It was 7.5 months later before I got the house up North sold and got to Florida. During the first three months I made three trips to Florida to house hunt. The first trip I stayed until Christmas Day evening so he wouldn't be alone. Palm-Air was wonderful and kept him in the same unit for the whole time so I decorated it for Christmas when I got there. On Christmas Day we had a nice dinner and went to the beach for the afternoon before my flight back that evening. He also made two trips back to help pack up. When I finally got down here there were things that weren't done that I thought he would have taken care of before I got there. When I asked him about it he confessed that he wasn't doing as well as he made it sound on our daily phone calls. I had no idea he was still going through so much because he liked Florida, the new job and the people he worked with. And he enjoyed living out of Wyndham Palm-Aire and Sea Gardens for four months until a week after we closed on our house here in Florida. It took a month or two of me being here and us settled in a new routine for him to finally start really moving past what had happened. If I had had any idea he was still going through so much I would have quit my job and joined him sooner instead of waiting for the new place to close and for our house up North to sell. My husband gives me a lot of credit for helping him get through that time but even now almost 8 years later I still have regrets about how I handled that time in our lives and wish do overs were possible.

If someone you know and care about is in a similar situation to my husband and Bart's brother and says they are okay chances are they aren't anywhere near as good as they are leading you to believe they are. If they aren't talking you really don't know what is going through their minds. They may so devastated and ashamed of being depressed that they find it hard to talk about it.


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## am1

Just a week ago it has been one year since I lost/sold my business. Other then a two week stint at a fortune 500 company early on and side businesses it was all I have done since university.  I was prepared and sweated it for about 10 months.  I knew to document everything and make as much money as possible.  Visited Orlando 4 times in those 10 months to maximize profits as well as enjoy the ride (we had bought Disney annual passes a few months before).  Even before then I knew it would not last forever.  I diversified and worked 24/7 365.  I have no interest in going back into the workforce and just manage what investments I have.  Some are passive and others are businesses.  Would take a long time to get back to where I was but does not bother me.  Others should not let a job define them and owe nothing to a company but expect nothing from them either.


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## VacationForever

More than 10 years ago, I worked for a Fortune XX company which was doing layoffs in succession of several years.  Each time we had to select our staff for the layoff.  After multiple layoffs which were focused mainly on people doing the work, the C-level suite came to realize that the company had too many managers/directors/... and the ratio of management to staff became quite ridiculous.  The CEO had to appease shareholders to show that he was taking serious action with cost cutting and decided to do a round of voluntary separation comprising of senior grade managers only.  This was quite hush-hush and never made to the wall street newspapers.  I was told that I was at no risk for upcoming regular layoff but I was free to accept the voluntary separation, which based on my years of service and accelerated stock options came out to about a year of my compensation.  My husband was in the same boat and that was when we said we were tired for working for the K-Mart of high tech as all they were doing was layoff after layoff and our staff's morale was so low that it was just a depressing place to walk into each day.   He was eligible for retirement based on age and years of service, which came with some additional perks.  We took the packages and started our own company.

Two years ago my husband decided it was finally time to retire and we decided to sell our business.  I really wanted to work for another 8 years but that put an end to the plan.  Work had always defined who I was.  Whenever I got together with my old buddies from my MBA program and my former professor, everyone would be talking about what they were doing.  I felt that in no way I would retire because I would feel like a failure.  I was considered somewhat of a "hot shot" in the previous company which I left and a workaholic in our company.  No one thought I would not work again.  I did go through 5 minutes of I feel sorry for myself before I put a plan together to ensure that we had a stable financial income stream for the next 30 years and more.  I had already been working on a retirement spreadsheet for several years and I had to put it into reality.  I put my entire IRA into deferred income annuities, and set aside savings until all income streams start paying us.  The stress of what if the stock market crashes is taken out of the equation.  I also have a son with a learning disability whom I am still supporting, and he is now pursuing his second degree with the goal of improving his employability.

Morale of the story is that things can happen to one's career and we all need to have a plan in place for what if it goes south.


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## bogey21

This is so damn depressing.  Because I was able to walk away on my terms it is hard for me to really understand what the modern corporate ethic is doing to people's lives and health.  All I can do is pray for those whose lives have been devistated by this...

George


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## Patri

Yes, people are identified by their jobs. My deepest sympathies, Bart. 
When you meet someone, don't you soon ask what their career is/was? When someone works 8 hours a day at something, it IS a part of them. The associations around them matter too - the people they know professionally and personally. That piece of yourself cannot just be shrugged off when you are let go. I was laid off over two years ago from a very visible job in my community. I wanted to stay involved and immediately applied for a vacancy on a local governing board. Fortunately I was appointed to the volunteer position over many candidates. It has saved me, to still be able to serve others while looking for another FT job. That has not happened, and age discrimination (or too much education) has definitely played a role. 
I am settled into what is now. I have two part-time jobs. When COBRA was ending, I decided to get counseling for a few sessions (as much to stick it to my employer with some final insurance costs ). The therapist said I was well adjusted for the five stresses in my life at the time. I felt pretty positive too, but it was kind of nice to talk to someone neutral. She didn't offer any advice, but I guess they are not supposed to.
So we all have to carry on as best we can. And not judge others on how they deal with their situations.


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## jackio

Bart, I am so very sorry.  Thank you for sharing to warn others.


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## heathpack

Aw these stories are hard to read.

But helpful.  I’m 52 and feel secure in my job.  It’s worth having a little reality check though.  We are all less secure as we age.  It sounds like this is just the new reality.  Best to have your head there mentally, rather than be blindsided by it.


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## WinniWoman

Icc5 said:


> PLEASE READ::: ANYONE LOSING A JOB AFTER LONG WORKING AT IT.
> 
> On 4th of July (we always have a big BBQ at my house as it is another brother's birthday) my youngest brother whom recently turned 57 committed suicide after accepting a great buyout.  He had 27 years in and the company was reorganizing and he was told he would probably have to be let go if he didn't take the buyout.  He was given 2 weeks pay for each year in and it was a very high paying position.
> The buyout was only a few weeks ago.
> Background:  No debt, house paid off, no real bills, wife a teacher, very well off financially, owner of another business and very well organized.   In the family he was youngest but pretty much considered most responsible and business smart along with me (5 of us older siblings).
> He felt worthless no matter what any of us said to him.  He had gone to a Dr. and on medication for depression.  His son just paid for my brother,brother's wife, son and son's girlfriend for a great cruise that they all enjoyed and got back from 3 days earlier.
> His wife got up in morning of the 4th and went for a walk.  My brother went into backyard, put a towel over his head and proceeded to shoot himself.
> IF YOU HAVE TO LEAVE A JOB AFTER WORKING THERE A LONG TIME : Get Councilling!
> I repeat GET HELP.  You might think it will be fine but many people feel defined by their job and tie their worth to their work.  Don't let anyone take that risk, see to it they get help.
> Sorry, but my heart is broken, my family, his family are all hurting and I don't want to ever see/hear this happen to another person.
> Bart




OMG. This is extremely sad. I am so sorry for your loss.

I hate to even say it, but your brother's life sounds a bit like my brother's, also the youngest (and smartest) out of the 2 of us, whom is extremely successful and well off and can't wait to retire- or so he says. It might be this year when he turns 60. I always feel he is searching for a perfect life situation- that he feels he always has control over everything- but that he is not necessarily happy. And he, too, was on antidepressants at one time (maybe still is- I don't know), though I know little about it as he and his wife are very secretive. I am skeptical about these medications - that they could make a person feel worse.

I will tell you for me it is the job that makes me depressed, not the other way around. If it weren't for money, I never would be there at all. I never identified with my job and in fact always hated working (paid employment- not that I am lazy). I know who I am inside and a job to me was just something I had to do. To me, work gets in the way of my life and I don't have time for it but that is the way it is for most people.

This all said, there is almost no way to many any sense of such a tragedy. You never really know what goes in inside someone's head that they would do something like this. I will say prayers for you and your family today. Deepest condolences for you all. And may your brother rest in peace.


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## WinniWoman

lockewong said:


> Please document and print what you have before the inevitable comes about.  Put your information and contacts on a flash drive and bring it home. If they surprise you and fire you, you may only have an hour to leave and been watched and escorted out.  You will not have time to keep your documentation or your contacts in the field.  Good luck.




I have printed lots of things out, but some I haven't. It is too overwhelming. Besides, what will be the point? When I get fired, I am going to try to forget about this whole rotten situation, though I know it won't be easy. I just want to be happy day to day as much as can be in reality.

I have even downsized at my desk and my work supplies in my car so it won't be so cumbersome to walk out on D Day. Also- on the company cell- nothing personal on there. No contacts, no Facebook, or messenger, or Instagram- no personal texts or emails or photos- everything gets erased when I am done. I think the only thing I have on there is my Hannafords rewards app for when I food shop and my Bitmoji LOL! I even deleted my Alexa App! Ha! Ha! Darn- now I have to print out my shopping list!


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## WinniWoman

Chrispee said:


> I’m very sorry for the loss of your brother!
> 
> If I know anything about mpumilia from reading her posts, she is not defined as a person by her job.



You got that right!  If anything, it is the job that makes me depressed. It zaps the life out of me! Without it, mentally (and physically) I would probably be much healthier. Financially- in the past over my lifetime- not so much. Now- meh...

I was meant to be a homemaker- that is what I like- believe it or not. I like cleaning, some cooking, shopping, managing the finances and just the household chores in general (maintenance, organizing, etc). To me, this is my real work. I can work at my own pace. I'm the boss. No BS to deal with. I find I am more engaged and time flies by when I am at home.

Know what I do on weeknights and weekends? All of the above. I don't seek out entertainment or go out shopping or anything like that. I stay home. Why? I am a Cancer- that's why.

The only thing I ever liked about paid work was some of the socializing, little as it was. If I was not working I could maybe have gotten involved in a community organization- some volunteer work- and socializing! Though the past 10 years I have gotten involved with one because of some issues going on in our town. But it was too tiring for me after working all day and I have backed off for now.


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## mpizza

Icc5 said:


> Sorry, but my heart is broken, my family, his family are all hurting and I don't want to ever see/hear this happen to another person.
> Bart



My deepest condolences on the loss of your brother.

Maria


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## WinniWoman

bogey21 said:


> This is so damn depressing.  Because I was able to walk away on my terms it is hard for me to really understand what the modern corporate ethic is doing to people's lives and health.  All I can do is pray for those whose lives have been devistated by this...
> 
> George




There is no ethic. We are all just numbers to the corporate world. They could care less about human beings.


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## WinniWoman

So- this past Friday I decided to confront my boss about the job posting for my position. I felt I was either going to have to quit- or try to get him to fire me so I could at least get unemployment. If he admitted it- then possibly I could make a deal for severance and PTO payout- and no contest of unemployment- if I cooperated with the transition. But-

He immediately denied it was to replace me, stating the same spiel he and the COO have spewed the past few months-that it is for a second marketing rep. Said if he was going to fire me he would already have done so. I told him I was skeptical. That the job responsibilities in the ad sounded like those of a Marketing Director, though part-time- which is what the COO referred to me as in a past email.

He then said I was NOT going to be the Marketing Director. That he was running the facility and he makes the decisions and that is his decision. So I asked him what then I would be doing? And he said I would be doing what I am doing now. Then I mentioned that the COO told me months ago she was going to rewrite my job description, but I have yet to see it. He said- with a smirk and a giggle- that she was going to rewrite it.

I believe this is a position to replace me. No way does a facility like ours need 2 people- and considering we have lost a big account- if anything they would be cutting back on salaries. In most organizations- thought foolish-sales people are the first to go. But to ADD on an additional one- when the boss already cut out the monthly Kurig machine and is worried about replacing light bulbs, does not seem to fit his MO. Another person just gave notice and he is not replacing her position either. And the nursing supervisor is leaving- and she is new! Place is too crazy.

He started to go off on tangents about the troubles in our market and he was hoping a new person could bring some new ideas and would be working in tandem with me. I already know this new person will be the star and I will be compared to him/her. It will not go well.

What is going on is the boss has me in kind of a holding pattern. Gives me grunt work to do that is time consuming and ineffective. Keeps me out of the loop.  Has decided to micromanage me in terms of my hours and how I use them to do my job which is making everything even worse.  I have been cast down from what my role was/should be. Treats me like crap. Some emails I send him he ignores; other times he says he is going to send me an email with information that would help me- but he never does. The company was always awful to work for and now is even worse since this new acquisition.

Has been very demoralizing and humiliating.

When I told him the word Marketing was spelled wrong in the ad he said he didn't place it. Maybe he meant the someone else in the company placed it- don't know. He did say that it doesn't matter- that he has gotten hundreds of resumes already. I made the mistake of forgetting to ask him when he thought a new person would be in place.

I am holding on by a string right now. I don't want to work here, but if he is going to fire me anyway I am trying to stick it out to get unemployment and whatever else I can- which won't be much anyway- but every little bit helps. I am hoping I won;t be going through this torture much longer. Maybe now that I confronted him about not believing this is an additional position, maybe he will let me go sooner rather than later. But I really am dreading going in this week worse than ever and I am not sure how much longer I can hold out. I already feel the tension in my shoulders. And when working I feel kind of what's the point? Just going through the motions...

You know- I am a marketing rep. -most of us in the job are gregarious types- the ones who are out in the field talking all day to our referring providers and providing in person customer service. We have to be happy- or at least appear that way- every single day no matter what. You can imaging how hard it is for me now with all this happening. But I carry on...


----------



## Panina

mpumilia said:


> You got that right!  If anything, it is the job that makes me depressed. It zaps the life out of me! Without it, mentally (and physically) I would probably be much healthier. Financially- in the past over my lifetime- not so much. Now- meh...
> 
> I was meant to be a homemaker- that is what I like- believe it or not. I like cleaning, some cooking, shopping, managing the finances and just the household chores in general (maintenance, organizing, etc). To me, this is my real work. I can work at my own pace. I'm the boss. No BS to deal with. I find I am more engaged and time flies by when I am at home.
> 
> Know what I do on weeknights and weekends? All of the above. I don't seek out entertainment or go out shopping or anything like that. I stay home. Why? I am a Cancer- that's why.
> 
> The only thing I ever liked about paid work was some of the socializing, little as it was. If I was not working I could maybe have gotten involved in a community organization- some volunteer work- and socializing! Though the past 10 years I have gotten involved with one because of some issues going on in our town. But it was too tiring for me after working all day and I have backed off for now.


Like you, I was always good at my job but it never defined me.  Even though I was very successful at my job it was just a job.  When I retired early everyone thought I was nuts as I was still making good money. I never looked back. Even now I am told you are young, you can still sell real estate.  Yes I can but but I rather be at home and travel. Mpumilia when you are able to retire I have no doubt you will love it as I do.


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## Patri

Mary Ann, if your life was a movie, there would be an ending that the audience would cheer, as your boss got his just rewards. Maybe the karma on the rhino poachers will drift over here.


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## WinniWoman

I guess it doesn't matter that I started with this place from the beginning. The rep before me was there just 6 months- a young woman- and quit because she was bored with it.

So it has been me- and, of course, my first bosses. On the ground, in the field, keeping the relationships going all these years. He states I know our market well but does not value my opinions because he only wants to hear what he wants to hear.

That said- the new company wants more-more, more, more- understandable I guess. There are one or two things more we could be doing to get more business and I can certainly do them if given the opportunity and support, but I'm not getting it and being sabotaged has killed my spirit altogether. 

Everything else has been tried. To me, in terms of the marketplace, they are trying to get blood from a stone. Maybe I am wrong, but at this point I just don't care and would like to move on in this stage of my life. I don't deserve to be dragged on like this.


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## bogey21

mpumilia said:


> I want to be out by April 1st one way or another. Or at least give notice by then or get fired by then. I haven't slept in weeks and I am in a constant nervous state. I am so done.



Above was written on March 17th.  Here we are almost 4 months later.  No resolution and a lot of mental anguish.  If for no other reason than OP's mental and physical health this needs to be resolved one way or another sooner rather than later...

George


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## Panina

mpumilia said:


> I guess it doesn't matter that I started with this place from the beginning. The rep before me was there just 6 months- a young woman- and quit because she was bored with it.
> 
> So it has been me- and, of course, my first bosses. On the ground, in the field, keeping the relationships going all these years. He states I know our market well but does not value my opinions because he only wants to hear what he wants to hear.
> 
> That said- the new company wants more-more, more, more- understandable I guess. There are one or two things more we could be doing to get more business and I can certainly do them if given the opportunity and support, but I'm not getting it and being sabotaged has killed my spirit altogether.
> 
> Everything else has been tried. To me, in terms of the marketplace, they are trying to get blood from a stone. Maybe I am wrong, but at this point I just don't care and would like to move on in this stage of my life. I don't deserve to be dragged on like this.


I think at this point they are just trying to make you miserable so you quit.  It is months and they have not fired you yet probably because they are afraid of an age discrimination lawsuit.

I know this is hard but I would turn yourself into an actress and go to work smiling and cheerful everyday.  At best it might annoy the people who are making you miserable or maybe they will think a screw is loose and leave you be.

Meanwhile think of reinventing yourself for the future.  I had to find a new career (my last job before I retired) when I moved as there were no jobs in my field. I started as home designer for a luxury home builder.  It was a low level job with bad pay and no benefits  but within 6 months I got  my real estate license, got a full time job from them with good pay and benefits and stood with them until I retired.


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## WinniWoman

bogey21 said:


> Above was written on March 17th.  Here we are almost 4 months later.  No resolution and a lot of mental anguish.  If for no other reason than OP's mental and physical health this needs to be resolved one way or another sooner rather than later...
> 
> George



Lol! Right! I can't believe I made it this far! Each week I begin with "Ok. I can do this". I try to hang on. I try to tell myself- "who cares? just a stupid job." But- I am spending 10 hours per day - not counting getting ready for work and also having to give up Sunday mornings to cook all our meals and so forth. That is a HUGE chunk of my life. In fact- I have to sleep (or at least try) and that is another 8 hours- doesn't leave much else. It irks me that I am being treated like this and to quit when I worked all my life and I at least deserve unemployment and my unused PTO days and a little severance.

I have been a victim of numerous layoffs and mergers all my life- just my generation and field I guess- and I never got anything when I left a job. No severance. No package deal. Nothing. There were no 401ks until the last part of my working career. The only pension I will get is $29 per month from a hospital job that the dept. closed after I was only there 3 years. (wine money at least)

I collected unemployment once for 3 months and another time for 1 month. I never had a problem getting a job right away.  But this time it is different due to my age and this would anger me more than anything - not to be able to at least get unemployment.


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## bluehende

Keep on hanging in there.  I am the type of person that would not allow them to win by quitting.  My mother gave me a stubborn streak.  Each day you leave celebrate that you made it more more day (a few more dollars) and each day go in with a fire to make it through that day without letting them bother you one bit.  I know harder to do than it is to say.  None of us knows exactly what the future holds and my experience is that we are pretty resilient and things get better.


PS.  Feel free to use us for weekly or even daily therapy sessions.  We are all rooting for you.  It is just what we root for changes from time to time.


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## WinniWoman

Panina said:


> I think at this point they are just trying to make you miserable so you quit.  It is months and they have not fired you yet probably because they are afraid of an age discrimination lawsuit.
> 
> I know this is hard but I would turn yourself into an actress and go to work smiling and cheerful everyday.  At best it might annoy the people who are making you miserable or maybe they will think a screw is loose and leave you be.
> 
> Meanwhile think of reinventing yourself for the future.  I had to find a new career (my last job before I retired) when I moved as there were no jobs in my field. I started as home designer for a luxury home builder.  It was a low level job with bad pay and no benefits  but within 6 months I got  my real estate license, got a full time job from them with good pay and benefits and stood with them until I retired.




Yes- well I am an actress in this job anyway! LOL! I am naturally a very pleasant person believe it or not. The guy in our local supermarket says I am the nicest customer they have! In fact- just this past Friday he told me that again!

At least someone appreciates me!

Honestly, I can't even think about getting another job right now. The thought of working for someone else makes me nauseous. I don't want to start over accounting to anyone. And good luck taking time off for our timeshare vacations. I always said this was going to be my last job. Not much work around here anyway. It is a rural area and I am not going to commute. I can;'take that anymore- especially in winter. My car already has almost 100,000 miles on it just form this job. I have been through a lot of cars with this job and my other jobs. To buy even another car- I might as well stay home at this point in life. Things like that. Really- I just don't want to do it anymore.

But=hey- you never know. Right now I am stuck in this sh8&$@@ show.

But- we shall see. Stranger things have happened.


----------



## WinniWoman

Panina said:


> I think at this point they are just trying to make you miserable so you quit.  It is months and they have not fired you yet probably because they are afraid of an age discrimination lawsuit.
> 
> I know this is hard but I would turn yourself into an actress and go to work smiling and cheerful everyday.  At best it might annoy the people who are making you miserable or maybe they will think a screw is loose and leave you be.
> 
> Meanwhile think of reinventing yourself for the future.  I had to find a new career (my last job before I retired) when I moved as there were no jobs in my field. I started as home designer for a luxury home builder.  It was a low level job with bad pay and no benefits  but within 6 months I got  my real estate license, got a full time job from them with good pay and benefits and stood with them until I retired.




Yes- well I am an actress in this job anyway! LOL! I am naturally a very pleasant person believe it or not. The guy in our local supermarket says I am the nicest customer they have! In fact- just this past Friday he told me that again!

At least someone appreciates me!

Honestly, I can't even think about getting another job right now. The thought of working for someone else makes me nauseous. I don't want to start over accounting to anyone. And good luck taking time off for our timeshare vacations. I always said this was going to be my last job. Not much work around here anyway. It is a rural area and I am not going to commute. I can;'take that anymore- especially in winter. My car already has almost 100,000 miles on it just form this job. I have been through a lot of cars with this job and my other jobs. To buy even another car- I might as well stay home at this point in life. Things like that. Really- I just don't want to do it anymore.

But=hey- you never know. Right now I am stuck in this sh8&$@@ show.

But- we shall see. Stranger things have happened.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Bart, my sincerest condolences on your loss.  There are simply no words left to say beyond how sorry we all are about how things ended for your younger brother. 

I am also one of those people who despite working very hard and sometimes long hours, have spent a fair amount of time and effort learning about the importance of core values and living from the inside out based on those values, which promotes separation between how I define myself and what I do.  It it not easy but is very necessary especially in today’s uncertain and fast changing digital economy. 

Mpumilia you mentioned you have retained an attorney.  Attorneys are in the business of giving advice, what does your attorney advise that you do?  

In 2014 I went through something similar though I was only 44 at the time.  New management at the top came in and it became obvious that they were going to remove and replace almost all existing C level senior management (I was a director at the time) that had any seniority.  I lost both my bosses within 30 days of that time.  Out with the old, in with the new.  I ended up staying until August 2016 to help lead and manage a large acquisition, after which I chose to leave with a severance package after 14 years.  I created and negotiated my own terms of separation proactively.  That said, it was still a miserable time for me from Sept 2014 to August 2016. 

My situation was different than yours in that we were a two billion dollar a year business with 4500 employees and contractors though.  Your business sounds like it’s very small in comparison.  I’m also in my mid 40’s so age discrimination isn’t really a factor for me yet.  

With your skills do you think you could find other work that pays similarly?  Are you actively looking?  If your goal is to make it to 66 and you are currently 62 then you have four years left to meet your goal.  Don’t let your current dismal situation drain your energy away.  Find a way to channel that misery into motivation to move on and meet your goals in the process.  If you know the original owners of the company well enough, since you have been there from the beginning, call them and see if they can help you out somehow.  People that you know also know other people and can help you to move on.  That’s how I found my next opportunity.  Maybe the current management doesn’t value you - so go where you are loved in other words.  Leverage your contacts.  Create a plan and work your plan - this will help you to focus and create something positive for yourself and make going into the office a bit less awful at least in my experience.  

Within 30 days of my position elimination and layoff date I had two job offers since I created and worked a plan.  Now I’ve got a job five minutes from my house (previous job had a 1.5 hour commute each way), paying basically the same amount I made before.  I’ve got a better quality of life now as a result and I actually like what I do again!

Let us know how we can help you!  Are you on LinkedIn?  If so PM me a link to your profile and I will see what I can do to help you myself.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Passepartout

Bart, I wish you and your brother's family, peace. May you heal, and help spread the word that depression is a REAL, and senseless, and DEADLY disease. I am truly saddened by your loss.


----------



## WinniWoman

No- I have not retained an atty. I completed a very long questionnaire for  one and was advised to let him know if I get fired. That right now he wouldn't take it on.


----------



## Egret1986

Panina said:


> Meanwhile think of reinventing yourself for the future.  I had to find a new career (my last job before I retired) when I moved as there were no jobs in my field. I started as home designer for a luxury home builder.  It was a low level job with bad pay and no benefits  but within 6 months I got  my real estate license, got a full time job from them with good pay and benefits and stood with them until I retired.



That is what my DH is having to do.  A new company took over (like Mary Ann's employer) and he and his team's positions were eliminated on April 1 (how ironic).  My DH was offered a severance package.  He had another option on the table, which meant work outside of his career field and stepping into a lower level position in a field for which he has no experience. Taking this position should buy him some time.  He's miserable for the most part though.  Change is hard on top of that.  We have talked long about it.  I don't want this job to take away from his well-being and health.  We both believe taking this position was a good decision vs the 6 month severance in order to buy us some time to make an unhurried decision.  I want him out of there before it becomes a nightmare like Mary Ann is experiencing.  He's 57 and wanted to work several more years.  We're too close to the finish line to let these last few years cause so much stress that it diminishes our well-being and health.    He agrees (and he is some one that has been defined by his position and carrying out the responsibilities of that position.)  The atmosphere and environment has definitely changed within his company since the new company has taken over.  The position is new.  The take-over is new.   Hopefully, things are simply in a "growth" phase and will level out or improve as things move forward. 

Mary Ann, it's draining enough (emotionally, physically and mentally) to have to get in there every day and continue to provide service to the clients and not go off on this a-hole of a boss/human.  I applaud your ability to muster up that strength.



bogey21 said:


> Above was written on March 17th.  Here we are almost 4 months later.  No resolution and a lot of mental anguish.  If for no other reason than OP's mental and physical health this needs to be resolved one way or another sooner rather than later...
> 
> George



Mary Ann, I do hope that you are able to get this resolved very soon.  Before all this really bad crap happened, you wanted to be retired so that you could have the time and energy to do what you enjoy and want to do.  Geez, you're way overdue!  Now this! 



Patri said:


> Mary Ann, if your life was a movie, there would be an ending that the audience would cheer, as your boss got his just rewards. Maybe the karma on the rhino poachers will drift over here.


----------



## WinniWoman

HitchHiker71 said:


> BART, my sincerest condolences on your loss.  There are simply no words left to say beyond how sorry we all are about how things ended for your younger brother.
> 
> I am also one of those people who despite working very hard and sometimes long hours, have spent a fair amount of time and effort learning about the importance of core values and living from the inside out based on those values, which promotes separation between how I define myself and what I do.  It it not easy but is very necessary especially in today’s uncertain and fast changing digital economy.
> 
> Mpumilia you mentioned you have retained an attorney.  Attorneys are in the business of giving advice, what does your attorney advise that you do?
> 
> In 2014 I went through something similar though I was only 44 at the time.  New management at the top came in and it became obvious that they were going to remove and replace almost all existing C level senior management (I was a director at the time) that had any seniority.  I lost both my bosses within 30 days of that time.  Out with the old, in with the new.  I ended up staying until August 2016 to help lead and manage a large acquisition, after which I chose to leave with a severance package after 14 years.  I created and negotiated my own terms of separation proactively.  That said, it was still a miserable time for me from Sept 2014 to August 2016.
> 
> My situation was different than yours in that we were a two billion dollar a year business with 4500 employees and contractors though.  Your business sounds like it’s very small in comparison.  I’m also in my mid 40’s so age discrimination isn’t really a factor for me yet.
> 
> With your skills do you think you could find other work that pays similarly?  Are you actively looking?  If your goal is to make it to 66 and you are currently 62 then you have four years left to meet your goal.  Don’t let your current dismal situation drain your energy away.  Find a way to channel that misery into motivation to move on and meet your goals in the process.  If you know the original owners of the company well enough, since you have been there from the beginning, call them and see if they can help you out somehow.  People that you know also know other people and can help you to move on.  That’s how I found my next opportunity.  Maybe the current management doesn’t value you - so go where you are loved in other words.  Leverage your contacts.  Create a plan and work your plan - this will help you to focus and create something positive for yourself and make going into the office a bit less awful at least in my experience.
> 
> Within 30 days of my position elimination and layoff date I had two job offers since I created and worked a plan.  Now I’ve got a job five minutes from my house (previous job had a 1.5 hour commute each way), paying basically the same amount I made before.  I’ve got a better quality of life now as a result and I actually like what I do again!
> 
> Let us know how we can help you!  Are you on LinkedIn?  If so PM me a link to your profile and I will see what I can do to help you myself.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Thanks. I really appreciate your input!

No- very difficult to get any work around here- never mind for my salary- not that it is so great anyway but pays more than the average jobs here. No matter what- I would have to drive a bit.

Honestly, I don't feel I have the time or energy to look for a job while I am working this one. It's not like I am 25. I have a long day- I get up at 4am - now to be 3:30 am because of the changes- because I get my exercise in and have to allow for the drive in and so on. My doctor told me not to stop exercising and I have not. I must do it in the morning I won't do it at all by the time I get home.I drive a lot of the day- in and out of the car- then into the office and then back out. Very tiring by the end of the day.

The previous owners are doctors who now contract with the new company so they are still tied in with them. As far as I am concerned they threw us all under the bus.

In terms of Linked In, I deleted my account there a while ago because I never used it and, as I have said previously, I have no interest in the whole business networking thing. I need some space- some time off from working to see. I have never not worked and I need a sabbatical.


----------



## klpca

Bart - please accept my sincere condolences. But thank you for bringing up a difficult subject. Our situation was similar to others - within 18 months my husband was diagnosed with cancer (stage 3 but treatable so far), laid off due to a site closure (over 30+ years in the industry), then had a heart attack. (My personal suspicion is that the health issues were stress related - you can't work 60 hour weeks for years without seeing some issues). In addition to everything else, as part of his cancer treatment he was on a medicine that causes depression. It was one of the worst periods in our entire marriage, and believe me the worst part was the depression. Until you have gone through this I don't think that anyone can understand how the job loss shakes you to your core. People naturally take pride in the work that they do and for some, it defines them. My husband was definitely defined by his career and losing that was a very bitter pill to swallow. Luckily my husband found a new job after 5 months. He was on the medication that worsened his depression for another 6 months but eventually had to stop taking it because of the depression issue. We decided together that even if it lengthened his life by postponing recurrence of his cancer, it just wasn't worth it to live through the crippling depression right now. 

Bart - I hope that you can be kind to yourself because it wasn't your fault. Depression is the issue. He may have been dealing with it for a long time.

And hang in there Mary Ann. You know that old (and somewhat trite) saying: Tough times never last but tough people do. You are the poster child!


----------



## WinniWoman

klpca said:


> Bart - please accept my sincere condolences. But thank you for bringing up a difficult subject. Our situation was similar to others - within 18 months my husband was diagnosed with cancer (stage 3 but treatable so far), laid off due to a site closure (over 30+ years in the industry), then had a heart attack. (My personal suspicion is that the health issues were stress related - you can't work 60 hour weeks for years without seeing some issues). In addition to everything else, as part of his cancer treatment he was on a medicine that causes depression. It was one of the worst periods in our entire marriage, and believe me the worst part was the depression. Until you have gone through this I don't think that anyone can understand how the job loss shakes you to your core. People naturally take pride in the work that they do and for some, it defines them. My husband was definitely defined by his career and losing that was a very bitter pill to swallow. Luckily my husband found a new job after 5 months. He was on the medication that worsened his depression for another 6 months but eventually had to stop taking it because of the depression issue. We decided together that even if it lengthened his life by postponing recurrence of his cancer, it just wasn't worth it to live through the crippling depression right now.
> 
> Bart - I hope that you can be kind to yourself because it wasn't your fault. Depression is the issue. He may have been dealing with it for a long time.
> 
> And hang in there Mary Ann. You know that old (and somewhat trite) saying: Tough times never last but tough people do. You are the poster child!




Wow. Talk about a tough period in life! I don't know how your husband (and you) got through this! It's hard enough and then getting sick on top of it! Holy cow! I really feel for him! I hope he is doing better! 

Stress really affects our health. People need balance. Very few jobs today allow for that. 

Thanks for your encouragement!


----------



## WinniWoman

Egret1986 said:


> That is what my DH is having to do.  A new company took over (like Mary Ann's employer) and he and his team's positions were eliminated on April 1 (how ironic).  My DH was offered a severance package.  He had another option on the table, which meant work outside of his career field and stepping into a lower level position in a field for which he has no experience. Taking this position should buy him some time.  He's miserable for the most part though.  Change is hard on top of that.  We have talked long about it.  I don't want this job to take away from his well-being and health.  We both believe taking this position was a good decision vs the 6 month severance in order to buy us some time to make an unhurried decision.  I want him out of there before it becomes a nightmare like Mary Ann is experiencing.  He's 57 and wanted to work several more years.  We're too close to the finish line to let these last few years cause so much stress that it diminishes our well-being and health.    He agrees (and he is some one that has been defined by his position and carrying out the responsibilities of that position.)  The atmosphere and environment has definitely changed within his company since the new company has taken over.  The position is new.  The take-over is new.   Hopefully, things are simply in a "growth" phase and will level out or improve as things move forward.
> 
> Mary Ann, it's draining enough (emotionally, physically and mentally) to have to get in there every day and continue to provide service to the clients and not go off on this a-hole of a boss/human.  I applaud your ability to muster up that strength.
> 
> 
> 
> Mary Ann, I do hope that you are able to get this resolved very soon.  Before all this really bad crap happened, you wanted to be retired so that you could have the time and energy to do what you enjoy and want to do.  Geez, you're way overdue!  Now this!




Thank you! I am sorry to hear that your husband is also going through this BS as well. This is just the way these jobs are now. Nothing nice to go to each day. Not pleasant. 

I am thinking that since the new person is going to be doing things a marketing director would do- at least by the job description that was posted- that I am going to do all the grunt work like I do anyway- but more of it. He kept emphasizing that this new company only hired 1099 employees for marketing. Then he said he isn't going to do that. Then I told him I probably would not want to be a 1099 employee. Now he is advertising this part-time position. Everything is like a big scret. he pays mind games.

The new person will be in like flint with him. As the job posting described- "working closely with the center director". Not something he does with me- that's for sure!

No one likes him. The nurses really hate him. The per diem ones are not answering their texts anymore as to whether or not they can work a shift. Sadly, one nurse I am very friendly with says as soon as she is able she is going to seek a second position at the hospital where she works (her main job) and then she is out because she can't work for him. Not the only one who has told me this.

Right- I do want to enjoy life now instead of having this feeling of dread and sadness every single day. I think the 60's are a critical time for people. My husband's best man right now is extremely ill (64 and had brain tumor surgery) and also a 69 year old guy at his club just died. In fact, over the past couple of years, several of the members- all in their 60's except one in his 50's- have died.

What is the point of anything? I don't have the  answer...but I do know it isn't these jobs...

If I have to be poorer because I quit a job, so be it.


----------



## HitchHiker71

mpumilia said:


> Thanks. I really appreciate your input!
> 
> No- very difficult to get any work around here- never mind for my salary- not that it is so great anyway but pays more than the average jobs here. No matter what- I would have to drive a bit.
> 
> Honestly, I don't feel I have the time or energy to look for a job while I am working this one. It's not like I am 25. I have a long day- I get up at 4am - now to be 3:30 am because of the changes- because I get my exercise in and have to allow for the drive in and so on. My doctor told me not to stop exercising and I have not. I must do it in the morning I won't do it at all by the time I get home.I drive a lot of the day- in and out of the car- then into the office and then back out. Very tiring by the end of the day.
> 
> The previous owners are doctors who now contract with the new company so they are still tied in with them. As far as I am concerned they threw us all under the bus.
> 
> In terms of Linked In, I deleted my account there a while ago because I never used it and, as I have said previously, I have no interest in the whole business networking thing. I need some space- some time off from working to see. I have never not worked and I need a sabbatical.



Got it Mary Ann.  Whatever your plan is - even if it is to get some space to get some perspective, whatever form it takes, plan your work and work your plan.

If I were to speculate, it almost sounds like you work for a medical practice that sold out to one of those concierge conversion services? I lost my PCP a few years ago to this exact thing.  I’d been with him for most of my adult life and then he sold out to a concierge service after which I would have had to pay like 1400 a year just to keep him as my PCP.  Supposedly his patient load would decrease from around 3500 down to 500 and allow for better individual care, but we chose not to pay the 1400 a year for that privilege.

I forgot to say that I also was diagnosed with low grade cancer in 2013 and underwent treatment in Feb 2016 during all of that job uncertainty.  It is very stressful as everyone has said.  Even with knowing that who I am is not associated with what I do, I still had my moments for sure.  This life is not easy for most of us it seems.  At least we all have one another during the process!  

If you decide you want to jump back into the job market sooner rather than later, have you considered remote work?  For instance the firm I work for, most of our roughly 150 employees all work remotely from home.  Including our 5-6 marketing people.  Just some food for thought as you navigate your current situation.  Working from home has its own pros and cons, but if you are in a more rural area, maybe something to consider?

All the best for you and yours as you continue to endure your current job situation!  One thing I just thought of that I neglected to say before, I wish I would have done what I did sooner rather than waiting and enduring miserable circumstances for almost two years from Sept 2014 to August 2016.  I would have been better off in hindsight not having endured the misery.  You are all right it is not worth your health or your sanity, that much is certain.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vacationhopeful

Just take it One Day at a time.

Also .. many 'glad-handing' sales staff .... LOVE the "face to face" people interaction and HATE doing the (office) paperwork. BUT they absolutely KNOW you are needed for their "paper slaying" function. And doing the paperwork still has you dealing with customers. YOU might think I am downplaying your role .. except "NEED" is in the details, the followup and closing (Signing & paying for the product).


----------



## lockewong

mpumilia said:


> I have printed lots of things out, but some I haven't. It is too overwhelming. Besides, what will be the point? When I get fired, I am going to try to forget about this whole rotten situation, though I know it won't be easy. I just want to be happy day to day as much as can be in reality.
> 
> I have even downsized at my desk and my work supplies in my car so it won't be so cumbersome to walk out on D Day. Also- on the company cell- nothing personal on there. No contacts, no Facebook, or messenger, or Instagram- no personal texts or emails or photos- everything gets erased when I am done. I think the only thing I have on there is my Hannafords rewards app for when I food shop and my Bitmoji LOL! I even deleted my Alexa App! Ha! Ha! Darn- now I have to print out my shopping list!


There you go, keep your spirit up.  Switch the Hannafords app to your personal cell phone.  Very important.  Keep you head up high.  Rooting for you!


----------



## Panina

mpumilia said:


> Yes- well I am an actress in this job anyway! LOL! I am naturally a very pleasant person believe it or not. The guy in our local supermarket says I am the nicest customer they have! In fact- just this past Friday he told me that again!
> 
> At least someone appreciates me!
> 
> Honestly, I can't even think about getting another job right now. The thought of working for someone else makes me nauseous. I don't want to start over accounting to anyone. And good luck taking time off for our timeshare vacations. I always said this was going to be my last job. Not much work around here anyway. It is a rural area and I am not going to commute. I can;'take that anymore- especially in winter. My car already has almost 100,000 miles on it just form this job. I have been through a lot of cars with this job and my other jobs. To buy even another car- I might as well stay home at this point in life. Things like that. Really- I just don't want to do it anymore.
> 
> But=hey- you never know. Right now I am stuck in this sh8&$@@ show.
> 
> But- we shall see. Stranger things have happened.


I always felt you were a nice person. I am sure if we lived near each other we would be close friends. Maybe one day.


----------



## dsmrp

Panina said:


> I think at this point they are just trying to make you miserable so you quit.  It is months and they have not fired you yet probably because they are afraid of an age discrimination lawsuit.
> 
> I know this is hard but I would turn yourself into an actress and go to work smiling and cheerful everyday.  At best it might annoy the people who are making you miserable or maybe they will think a screw is loose and leave you be.
> 
> Meanwhile think of reinventing yourself for the future.  I had to find a new career (my last job before I retired) when I moved as there were no jobs in my field. I started as home designer for a luxury home builder.  It was a low level job with bad pay and no benefits  but within 6 months I got  my real estate license, got a full time job from them with good pay and benefits and stood with them until I retired.



Mary Ann +1 on your boss wanting to make you quit instead of firing you.  As long as upper mgmt backs him on this, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

Is there any possibility of you discreetly inquiring with your clients if they had positions you could do?
In my healthcare IT workplace, we have several vendor companies, and every so often, someone switches jobs,  vendor to client.  Even if you took a pay cut, you could get benefits, and likely would be much happier working till when you decide to retire.


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## VacationForever

A random question, many of the chat or call center functions can be done in one's home.  Amazon was recently hiring such positions as full time in California. Is it something worth pursuing for one who needs to bridge employment gap until finding something else or until retirement, or maybe even as part-time retirement work?


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## WinniWoman

deleted double post


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## WinniWoman

dsmrp said:


> Mary Ann +1 on your boss wanting to make you quit instead of firing you.  As long as upper mgmt backs him on this, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.
> 
> Is there any possibility of you discreetly inquiring with your clients if they had positions you could do?
> In my healthcare IT workplace, we have several vendor companies, and every so often, someone switches jobs,  vendor to client.  Even if you took a pay cut, you could get benefits, and likely would be much happier working till when you decide to retire.




Yes- but they are doctors offices and most people in these offices are not very happy either. Docs don't pay well up here, either. I am better with something where I work on my own. But right now I am not even worrying about another job. I am worrying about how to get out of this one. LOL!


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## WinniWoman

Panina said:


> I always felt you were a nice person. I am sure if we lived near each other we would be close friends. Maybe one day.




Yes- I believe that also! Isn't that funny?


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## WinniWoman

The nurses at my job are sure there is something mentally wrong with the boss- like he is a sociopath-and I looked it up and I think that just might be it.


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## HitchHiker71

mpumilia said:


> The nurses at my job are sure there is something mentally wrong with the boss- like he is a sociopath-and I looked it up and I think that just might be it.



There is a change ongoing in the economic workforce that I have noticed over the past decade or so.  The whole concept that work was really more than just work, that it is an extension of our family in some respects, and that we treated people as such during our work hours, is dying a slow death.  Where I worked for 14 years, I spent time outside of the workplace with my coworkers and in some cases those people are now dear friends and I know their families as well.  We still see one another outside of work and many of us have not worked with each other in years now.  It was about more than the job.  

Nowadays, the newer regimes, it’s all about the bottom line it seems.  That sense of family and belonging is gone.  It is rare to find a company to work for now that still has this type of culture.  Most are all about the bucks now, and it’s a take no prisoners culture now.  Could just be my jaded view of things, but I’m seeing this more and more often.  I hope I’m wrong in all honesty.  The sociopathic people actually can succeed in this new culture unfortunately _because_ they are dissociative in nature.  Hard to believe but I have seen it repeatedly now that sociopathic personalities rise to the top.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mpizza

HitchHiker71 said:


> There is a change ongoing in the economic workforce that I have noticed over the past decade or so.  The whole concept that work was really more than just work, that it is an extension of our family in some respects, and that we treated people as such during our work hours, is dying a slow death.  Where I worked for 14 years, I spent time outside of the workplace with my coworkers and in some cases those people are now dear friends and I know their families as well.  We still see one another outside of work and many of us have not worked with each other in years now.  It was about more than the job.
> 
> Nowadays, the newer regimes, it’s all about the bottom line it seems.  That sense of family and belonging is gone.  It is rare to find a company to work for now that still has this type of culture.  Most are all about the bucks now, and it’s a take no prisoners culture now.  Could just be my jaded view of things, but I’m seeing this more and more often.  I hope I’m wrong in all honesty.  The sociopathic people actually can succeed in this new culture unfortunately _because_they are dissociative in nature.  Hard to believe but I have seen it repeatedly now that sociopathic personalities rise to the top.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Bingo!

Maria


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## clifffaith

Bart, I am so sorry for your loss. You and your family are in my thoughts this afternoon.

Your situation hits very close to home. My brother sat himself down on a park bench on a cold night in November 2014 and took his own life with a bullet to the head. He was 55. He had suffered from depression on and off since his early thirties, and had at least two suicide attempts and hospitalizations. But by the age of forty he seemed to get himself together and moved across the country and got a teaching credential. We think we pieced the story together from a distance. He had snapped at one of his elementary school students  who'd gotten on his nerves, and had also been given additional counseling for his language, having referred to himself in the third person with "Yea, Mr. Smith is being a bastard today" when some kid was pouting about being told to sit down. He was under the impression he was about to lose his job, although his principal told us that was not at all the case. The whole school mourned his death (he was the art teacher and kids rotated through his class) and we had many nice notes from the teachers he worked with. I still can't forgive him for making my elderly parents' lives so unhappy.


----------



## WinniWoman

clifffaith said:


> Bart, I am so sorry for your loss. You and your family are in my thoughts this afternoon.
> 
> Your situation hits very close to home. My brother sat himself down on a park bench on a cold night in November 2014 and took his own life with a bullet to the head. He was 55. He had suffered from depression on and off since his early thirties, and had at least two suicide attempts and hospitalizations. But by the age of forty he seemed to get himself together and moved across the country and got a teaching credential. We think we pieced the story together from a distance. He had snapped at one of his elementary school students  who'd gotten on his nerves, and had also been given additional counseling for his language, having referred to himself in the third person with "Yea, Mr. Smith is being a bastard today" when some kid was pouting about being told to sit down. He was under the impression he was about to lose his job, although his principal told us that was not at all the case. The whole school mourned his death (he was the art teacher and kids rotated through his class) and we had many nice notes from the teachers he worked with. I still can't forgive him for making my elderly parents' lives so unhappy.




So very sorry about your brother. Wow. Such a shame and so hard on family. A lot of people out there are suffering so much that they resort to such an extreme. It is hard for most of us to imagine someones life can be that bad- especially someone that is smart and seemingly has it all.


----------



## WinniWoman

VacationForever said:


> A random question, many of the chat or call center functions can be done in one's home.  Amazon was recently hiring such positions as full time in California. Is it something worth pursuing for one who needs to bridge employment gap until finding something else or until retirement, or maybe even as part-time retirement work?



If I work again it would be great to be at home but it would need to be flexible. I am perfect for work at home. I have the self discipline for it. In fact, I had 2 work from home jobs in the past- where I still went out like I do now, but was based at home. I was in my element with this. Great work/life balance.


----------



## WinniWoman

HitchHiker71 said:


> Got it Mary Ann.  Whatever your plan is - even if it is to get some space to get some perspective, whatever form it takes, plan your work and work your plan.
> 
> If I were to speculate, it almost sounds like you work for a medical practice that sold out to one of those concierge conversion services? I lost my PCP a few years ago to this exact thing.  I’d been with him for most of my adult life and then he sold out to a concierge service after which I would have had to pay like 1400 a year just to keep him as my PCP.  Supposedly his patient load would decrease from around 3500 down to 500 and allow for better individual care, but we chose not to pay the 1400 a year for that privilege.
> 
> I forgot to say that I also was diagnosed with low grade cancer in 2013 and underwent treatment in Feb 2016 during all of that job uncertainty.  It is very stressful as everyone has said.  Even with knowing that who I am is not associated with what I do, I still had my moments for sure.  This life is not easy for most of us it seems.  At least we all have one another during the process!
> 
> If you decide you want to jump back into the job market sooner rather than later, have you considered remote work?  For instance the firm I work for, most of our roughly 150 employees all work remotely from home.  Including our 5-6 marketing people.  Just some food for thought as you navigate your current situation.  Working from home has its own pros and cons, but if you are in a more rural area, maybe something to consider?
> 
> All the best for you and yours as you continue to endure your current job situation!  One thing I just thought of that I neglected to say before, I wish I would have done what I did sooner rather than waiting and enduring miserable circumstances for almost two years from Sept 2014 to August 2016.  I would have been better off in hindsight not having endured the misery.  You are all right it is not worth your health or your sanity, that much is certain.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I work for a radiology center that doctors used to own and now sold to a management company. Looking back, I think they might have known way back last year that the big client we had was going to join up with the mega health group in our county and decided to sell beforehand. There is a sequence of events that occurred since last Fall that seem to have everything falling into place now from my perspective.

Our center is affiliated with a local hospital also, but that affiliation had dwindled down to like a 10% share. The hospital is now affiliated with a well known hospital in NYC also. Some stuff could go on next year with that also  that could affect the center's bottom line in a negative way.

I am sorry to hear about your cancer. I hope you are all clear of it now. I think if I was diagnosed with cancer I would not give it a second thought to resign. But- what is tough for people is they have their health insurance tied in with their employers. (though I do not right now) You just can't win. Has to be a better way.

And yes- working from home would be great for someone like me- maybe part-time going forward with a lot of flexibility. I worked from home before- similar kinds of jobs to what I have now- and I loved it.

Thank you for your words of wisdom. Thank all you Tuggers! You guys are so great and helpful!


----------



## Sugarcubesea

Maryann you inspire me.  Keep going and use all of us as your sound off / blow off steam zone. They are trying to make you miserable so that you will quit because the corporation knows they will lose an age discrimination suit. 

Stay strong and don’t let them win


----------



## clifffaith

mpumilia said:


> If I work again it would be great to be at home but it would need to be flexible. I am perfect for work at home. I have the self discipline for it. In fact, I had 2 work from home jobs in the past- where I still went out like I do now, but was based at home. I was in my element with this. Great work/life balance.



After five years with a store front we moved our window covering business home. I think I was a tad nervous even though I knew I had good self discipline. Even with our first year home being 1995, with wall to wall OJ trial coverage, working at home was never an issue. I'd eat lunch at noon to watch the news (still do), then go back to my desk. I can't even stop at JCPenney's or the mall on the way back from an appointment without feeling like I should be home. And on days with just doctor or hair appts, I still feel like I need to get back to my desk as soon as possible -- even though we are on the downward slide towards full retirement next year after the payments on the last little bit of yellow page advertising we do are done.


----------



## Panina

mpumilia said:


> Yes- I believe that also! Isn't that funny?


We are just two smart women who see things clearly and go with our guts. We know!


----------



## Sugarcubesea

Panina said:


> Like you, I was always good at my job but it never defined me.  Even though I was very successful at my job it was just a job.  When I retired early everyone thought I was nuts as I was still making good money. I never looked back. Even now I am told you are young, you can still sell real estate.  Yes I can but but I rather be at home and travel. Mpumilia when you are able to retire I have no doubt you will love it as I do.



That is how I feel, my job does not define me, I work to live and I try to enjoy every minute of each day...My end goal is to retire down in FL and I hope to be able to work till I turn 65 but if not I will work till they throw me out and find something down in FL to work at...


----------



## Icc5

Mary Ann,
I know nothing of depression but in my brother's case this always well organized person started only seeing everything sort of scrambled in his mind.  He had a side business that he made tons of money from called the Worm Dude.  What he mainly did at work and sort of in his worm business was figured out the routing aspects.  One of the things we were told happened with him is he closed and reopened his worm business a half dozen times that last day because he couldn't make decisions anymore.
He was always the one that was the first to make a decision before.
Bart


----------



## wackymother

Icc5 said:


> PLEASE READ::: ANYONE LOSING A JOB AFTER LONG WORKING AT IT.
> 
> On 4th of July (we always have a big BBQ at my house as it is another brother's birthday) my youngest brother whom recently turned 57 committed suicide after accepting a great buyout.  He had 27 years in and the company was reorganizing and he was told he would probably have to be let go if he didn't take the buyout.  He was given 2 weeks pay for each year in and it was a very high paying position.
> The buyout was only a few weeks ago.
> Background:  No debt, house paid off, no real bills, wife a teacher, very well off financially, owner of another business and very well organized.   In the family he was youngest but pretty much considered most responsible and business smart along with me (5 of us older siblings).
> He felt worthless no matter what any of us said to him.  He had gone to a Dr. and on medication for depression.  His son just paid for my brother,brother's wife, son and son's girlfriend for a great cruise that they all enjoyed and got back from 3 days earlier.
> His wife got up in morning of the 4th and went for a walk.  My brother went into backyard, put a towel over his head and proceeded to shoot himself.
> IF YOU HAVE TO LEAVE A JOB AFTER WORKING THERE A LONG TIME : Get Councilling!
> I repeat GET HELP.  You might think it will be fine but many people feel defined by their job and tie their worth to their work.  Don't let anyone take that risk, see to it they get help.
> Sorry, but my heart is broken, my family, his family are all hurting and I don't want to ever see/hear this happen to another person.
> Bart




I am so sorry. Sending healing thoughts to your family.


----------



## Talent312

HitchHiker71 said:


> There is a change ongoing in the economic workforce that I have noticed over the past decade or so.  The whole concept that work was really more than just work, that it is an extension of our family in some respects, and that we treated people as such during our work hours, is dying a slow death...



Not dying. It's dead as a doornail.

When my DW was working, nearly everyday she'd come home whining about how she was treated by her boss or one (or more) of her coworkers. She would feel hurt becuz they never missed an opportunity to put her down or make her look bad.

I tried explaining to her that, these were not her friends, not even fr-enemies, just hungry dogs fighting over scraps, and the she more she showed they could yank her chain, the more they'd yank it. I told her that she she'd be happier accepting that they were a**holes and letting it roll off her back. That didn't work.

Next, I suggested she quit. To that, she'd reply: "But I like my job."


----------



## dsmrp

mpumilia said:


> Yes- but they are doctors offices and most people in these offices are not very happy either. Docs don't pay well up here, either. I am better with something where I work on my own. But right now I am not even worrying about another job. I am worrying about how to get out of this one. LOL!



Best ways to get out of an intolerable job is to  1) find another job or 2) quit or retire if you can afford it.
Or accept the job conditions as they are so they become more tolerable to you 

It kinda goes along the same lines for dealing with a bad project:
1. accept it as it is
2. try to change conditions
or 
3. leave


----------



## pedro47

To the OP, I now feel your employer is reading this website. Please be careful.
IMHO.


----------



## WinniWoman

pedro47 said:


> To the OP, I now feel your employer is reading this website. Please be careful.
> IMHO.




Why do you say that? And- should I care anyway?


----------



## pedro47

Your employer sounds  like a person. I worked with over 20 years ago. They loved conflict and it was always all about them.

Please document everything and please saved every email they send to you and indirectly about you and your work performance.

In the end they will lose the battle. But you will never trust your coworkers again.

In the end, I was able to retire after 30 plus years of service  and they became ill and past away in a hospital, before they were able to retire and receive one retirement check.

Life have been very Good for me in retirement
Seventeen wonderful years in retirement and no I do visit or even ride by my work site.


----------



## pedro47

To the OP, one should always care about themselves. That will give you the Edge for Victory.
You must always think Positive and finally. This is the key, you must have GOD on your side.


----------



## vacationhopeful

My silent mantra repeated in my brain for when I was assigned a 'what the h**l' assignment .. was "one dollar, two dollar, three dollar, four dollar, FIVE!" ... repeat til your blood pressure comes down. And I also found it helped me to smile (which I think messed MORE with their head than anything else.). It was a job ... not my life. I only needed A JOB for the money. Eveything else is JUST DRAMA and power plays by people who think they can RULE THE WORLD.

They did not rule MY WORLD. Do your job, be pleasant, and SMILE!


----------



## am1

pedro47 said:


> To the OP, I now feel your employer is reading this website. Please be careful.
> IMHO.



I suggested this could be a possibility from the beginning.  But doubt they are as if they were she would have been fired with cause months ago.  They may find this website/thread in the future though.


----------



## WinniWoman

vacationhopeful said:


> My silent mantra repeated in my brain for when I was assigned a 'what the h**l' assignment .. was "one dollar, two dollar, three dollar, four dollar, FIVE!" ... repeat til your blood pressure comes down. And I also found it helped me to smile (which I think messed MORE with their head than anything else.). It was a job ... not my life. I only needed A JOB for the money. Eveything else is JUST DRAMA and power plays by people who think they can RULE THE WORLD.
> 
> They did not rule MY WORLD. Do your job, be pleasant, and SMILE!




I have taken your advice, Linda, and have been repeating that each day! Thanks!


----------



## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> I suggested this could be a possibility from the beginning.  But doubt they are as if they were she would have been fired with cause months ago.  They may find this website/thread in the future though.




They don't need cause here in at will NY. The only thing they can't fire you for is things like age or race or religion.

Meanwhile I never once mentioned any names and I would never do that.


----------



## Panina

mpumilia said:


> They don't need cause here in at will NY. The only thing they can't fire you for is things like age or race or religion.
> 
> Meanwhile I never once mentioned any names and I would never do that.



This thread shows the duress they put you through and some of the things they did to you in a timeline as you were experiencing them. Yes it it is from your prespective at each post but not from your memory months or years  later. If this ever went legal and a lawyer could use these posts,  as a juror it would be believable if I was one.


----------



## bluehende

vacationhopeful said:


> My silent mantra repeated in my brain for when I was assigned a 'what the h**l' assignment .. was "one dollar, two dollar, three dollar, four dollar, FIVE!" ... repeat til your blood pressure comes down. And I also found it helped me to smile (which I think messed MORE with their head than anything else.). It was a job ... not my life. I only needed A JOB for the money. Eveything else is JUST DRAMA and power plays by people who think they can RULE THE WORLD.
> 
> They did not rule MY WORLD. Do your job, be pleasant, and SMILE!



I always thought about it as pizza's.  It takes a bit longer between numbers, but eating pizza is my happy place.


----------



## MULTIZ321

Losing a Job in Midlife: How to Prepare and Bounce Back When Downsized Near Retirement
By Tamara E. Holmes/ Special to USA  Today/ Money/ Personal Finance/ usatoday.com

"As the CEO of a Girl Scout council, Janice Holly Booth of Gastonia, North Carolina,  figured she would remain in that role until retirement. But when she turned 50, she learned that cutbacks would leave her out of a job.

“I had intended that the Girl Scouts would be my last career, but you know what they say about the best-laid-plans,” Booth says.

Seeing unwelcome change on the horizon, Booth took action. Even before her job ended, she cut expenses.  “I adjusted to a lower income well before it happened, and the money I saved created a good cushion for when my job was gone,” she says.  She also decided to improve her career prospects by getting a master's degree in leadership. After the layoff, Booth lived off of her savings and a small pension while supplementing her income with consulting work. Today, at 58, she’ has built a new career as a full-time speaker and writer who teaches people how to achieve personal growth through risk-taking and adventure travel.

While a layoff can be financially challenging for anyone, it can be particularly devastating when you are nearing retirement. “In that 40s to 50s time frame, that's typically when you're at your highest earning potential,” says Mitchell C. Hockenbury, a financial planner with 1440 Financial Partners based in Kansas City, Missouri.

It can also be more difficult for older employees to find new jobs. A 2015 study by the Georgia Institute of Technology’s School of Psychology and the University of Minnesota’s Carlson School of Management found that unemployed Americans over 50 are likely to be job hunting for six weeks longer than those in their 30s and 40s and nearly 11 weeks longer than those in their 20s. Making things more challenging, nearly half of job seekers 55 and older who recently had become re-employed said they were earning less than what they earned in their previous job, according to a 2015 survey by the AARP Public Policy Institute....."

Richard


----------



## klpca

MULTIZ321 said:


> It can also be more difficult for older employees to find new jobs. A 2015 study by the Georgia Institute of Technology’s School of Psychology and the University of Minnesota’s Carlson School of Management found that unemployed Americans over 50 are likely to be job hunting for six weeks longer than those in their 30s and 40s and nearly 11 weeks longer than those in their 20s. Making things more challenging, nearly half of job seekers 55 and older who recently had become re-employed said they were earning less than what they earned in their previous job, according to a 2015 survey by the AARP Public Policy Institute....."
> 
> Richard



100% my husband's experience. He is very well connected and well liked in his professional life, had many connections, had exemplary credentials and still spent nearly 6 months searching - receiving one interview and one job offer and had to take a 25% pay cut. We're not complaining, but anyone who thinks that it will never happen to them will be surprised to wake up over 50 one day and discover the hard truth. It just is what it is. Personally I think that my husband's youthful appearance helped immensely. He looks 5 - 7 years younger than his actual age. I cannot imagine what it would be like if he looked older than his age.


----------



## WinniWoman

klpca said:


> 100% my husband's experience. He is very well connected and well liked in his professional life, had many connections, had exemplary credentials and still spent nearly 6 months searching - receiving one interview and one job offer and had to take a 25% pay cut. We're not complaining, but anyone who thinks that it will never happen to them will be surprised to wake up over 50 one day and discover the hard truth. It just is what it is. Personally I think that my husband's youthful appearance helped immensely. He looks 5 - 7 years younger than his actual age. I cannot imagine what it would be like if he looked older than his age.




Maybe I shouldn't have stopped coloring my hair. LOL!


----------



## WinniWoman

Yes- I am still there in case you are wondering! LOL!

An interesting thing happened today. A long time employee (at least 14 years)- a clinical director/technician- whom the sociopath just moved out of our main site to our small and dying site across the county, and replaced her with a much younger, less experienced woman (still a student)- came to me and asked me to read a letter- which turns out was her resignation letter!

This is someone who has been working side by side with the sociopath- someone he insisted I always CC my emails to. She told me she could not work there any longer. That he is mean to her and essentially everything he is doing to me he has done to her! She said it started about a month after he took over. She also said several other people who left also said that he harassed them and even put it in writing. (where those went- I don't know).

Who knew??!!

She said her husband told her to make sure she has an exit interview with HR for the benefit of everyone who works at our facility. She's only giving 2 weeks notice, one of which she will be on vacation. Next week the tyrant is on vacation so she figures she can stick it out.

She actually does not need the money and she will be able to get something else if she wants down the line. I was kind of jealous because now she will be going to her summer home for about a month to unwind.

I kind of felt really good after speaking with her as I never knew this was happening and I felt that now I know for sure I am not crazy and it isn't only me and the first woman he let go. I feel kind of relieved in a way now and not putting any pressure on myself with the work. He hasn't answered several emails I had sent him where I need his input and I frankly don't care anymore. The projects just won't get done.

The COO's brother, who is working on graphic designs with me, was getting impatient because I couldn't give him the go ahead on some stuff and sent him an email himself and the boss didn't respond to him either!

Another woman- a young one this time- walked out yesterday. She had been with us about a year I think.

And- another very experienced employee (in her 50's) showed me some of the emails he has sent her recently and she was fuming! They were of the tone similar to the ones he sends me.

To top it all off- his pride and joy employee who he says is running the place with him- a lovely young woman- was seen crying in the parking lot yesterday.

The plot thickens....I am actually starting to enjoy this Sh&&^$#t show! LOL!


----------



## bbodb1

Stay with it, Mary Ann!


----------



## WinniWoman

Did I mention I got a text again from Verizon Wireless that my work cell phone bill is past due? I forwarded it to him. No response. This happened a couple of months ago as well.

We just officially switched over to the new company's payroll. I hope we all have paychecks tomorrow and they are correct!


----------



## DaveNV

Keep saving all this documentation. It sounds like there could be a huge discrimination suit over his treatment of you and your coworkers.

Hang in there. And as I may not have said to you before, or even if I have, it bears repeating:

Don’t sweat the petty things.
And don’t pet the sweaty things. 

Dave


----------



## bluehende

DaveNW said:


> Keep saving all this documentation. It sounds like there could be a huge discrimination suit over his treatment of you and your coworkers.
> 
> Hang in there. And as I may not have said to you before, or even if I have, it bears repeating:
> 
> Don’t sweat the petty things.
> And don’t pet the sweaty things.
> 
> Dave



I would believe the suit would be pretty easy now.  I would make sure you get in contact with them and make sure you can keep in touch in case you need the ammo.


----------



## bluehende

mpumilia said:


> Yes- I am still there in case you are wondering! LOL!
> 
> An interesting thing happened today. A long time employee (at least 14 years)- a clinical director/technician- whom the sociopath just moved out of our main site to our small and dying site across the county, and replaced her with a much younger, less experienced woman (still a student)- came to me and asked me to read a letter- which turns out was her resignation letter!
> 
> This is someone who has been working side by side with the sociopath- someone he insisted I always CC my emails to. She told me she could not work there any longer. That he is mean to her and essentially everything he is doing to me he has done to her! She said it started about a month after he took over. She also said several other people who left also said that he harassed them and even put it in writing. (where those went- I don't know).
> 
> Who knew??!!
> 
> She said her husband told her to make sure she has an exit interview with HR for the benefit of everyone who works at our facility. She's only giving 2 weeks notice, one of which she will be on vacation. Next week the tyrant is on vacation so she figures she can stick it out.
> 
> She actually does not need the money and she will be able to get something else if she wants down the line. I was kind of jealous because now she will be going to her summer home for about a month to unwind.
> 
> I kind of felt really good after speaking with her as I never knew this was happening and I felt that now I know for sure I am not crazy and it isn't only me and the first woman he let go. I feel kind of relieved in a way now and not putting any pressure on myself with the work. He hasn't answered several emails I had sent him where I need his input and I frankly don't care anymore. The projects just won't get done.
> 
> The COO's brother, who is working on graphic designs with me, was getting impatient because I couldn't give him the go ahead on some stuff and sent him an email himself and the boss didn't respond to him either!
> 
> Another woman- a young one this time- walked out yesterday. She had been with us about a year I think.
> 
> And- another very experienced employee (in her 50's) showed me some of the emails he has sent her recently and she was fuming! They were of the tone similar to the ones he sends me.
> 
> To top it all off- his pride and joy employee who he says is running the place with him- a lovely young woman- was seen crying in the parking lot yesterday.
> 
> The plot thickens....I am actually starting to enjoy this Sh&&^$#t show! LOL!



Have fun with it.  You deserve it.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Like you, I was terminated from a job after 9+ years. It is a life changing event. Yes, some will say "Best thing EVER" but they MIGHT mean it is difficult time AND just plain horrible part of that time. Many times just TRY to put a positive spin on the layoff ... SAYING "this is NOT going to CRUSH ME". And you will survive.

*Do not let a company or job image DEFINE who you are. It is a JOB.* They pay you but do not own you. The worst assignment I had once, was where I had to count & shuffle some papers. DUMB and repetitive grunt work .... I was getting $40+/hour back in the early 1980s ... I had 2 undergraduate college degrees and a Masters. SO ... I chanted in my mind "$1, $2, $3, $4 and *$5*!"


----------



## WinniWoman

vacationhopeful said:


> Like you, I was terminated from a job after 9+ years. It is a life changing event. Yes, some will say "Best thing EVER" but they MIGHT mean it is difficult time AND just plain horrible part of that time. Many times just TRY to put a positive spin on the layoff ... SAYING "this is NOT going to CRUSH ME". And you will survive.
> 
> *Do not let a company or job image DEFINE who you are. It is a JOB.* They pay you but do not own you. The worst assignment I had once, was where I had to count & shuffle some papers. DUMB and repetitive grunt work .... I was getting $40+/hour back in the early 1980s ... I had 2 undergraduate college degrees and a Masters. SO ... I chanted in my mind "$1, $2, $3, $4 and *$5*!"




I get it, but a job does in a way own you. They dictate how you spend your life energy every day, every minute, every hour. Every day feels like a week.  Sad most people wish their lives away waiting for the weekend for some relief from it all- me included. But- that's the way it is and we have to deal with it.

I know your mantra and every day I repeat it as well..$1, $2, $3, $4, $5. Then I say I don't give a - you know what..

Really I am too old for this sh**^%#@t!


----------



## Patri

Oh my Mary Ann! Keep us posted. This is getting good.


----------



## WinniWoman

Patri said:


> Oh my Mary Ann! Keep us posted. This is getting good.




It's crazy town! LOL!


----------



## vacationhopeful

I do NOT think of myself as OLD. No one gets close to guessing my age. I thank my maternal grandmother's good skin and few wrinkles for that ... plus my good clean living!.

Wear a GRIN on your face ... a smile is lips together; a good GRIN usually gets called a "Shit eating" GRIN. No one ever makes a comment about a BAD DISPOSITION or lousy attitude when you are sporting a devilish big GRIN and your eyes are sparking with fun & life.


----------



## WinniWoman

vacationhopeful said:


> I do NOT think of myself as OLD. No one gets close to guessing my age. I thank my maternal grandmother's good skin and few wrinkles for that ... plus my good clean living!.
> 
> Wear a GRIN on your face ... a smile is lips together; a good GRIN usually gets called a "Shit eating" GRIN. No one ever makes a comment about a BAD DISPOSITION or lousy attitude when you are sporting a devilish big GRIN and your eyes are sparking with fun & life.




No one said YOU were old, Linda! LOL! I was referring to myself- meaning being this age who needs this crap? That is what I meant.

I always smile! I am a marketing rep! Gregarious! Funny actually! At least that is what people tell me.

Marketing people are all about smiling! Upbeat! In fact, I walk around almost laughing. But- that doesn't mean I don't have feelings or opinions that are the opposite when it comes to certain issues. I just don't show them at work unless I am speaking privately or confidentially with someone.


----------



## Panina

mpumilia said:


> Yes- I am still there in case you are wondering! LOL!
> 
> An interesting thing happened today. A long time employee (at least 14 years)- a clinical director/technician- whom the sociopath just moved out of our main site to our small and dying site across the county, and replaced her with a much younger, less experienced woman (still a student)- came to me and asked me to read a letter- which turns out was her resignation letter!
> 
> This is someone who has been working side by side with the sociopath- someone he insisted I always CC my emails to. She told me she could not work there any longer. That he is mean to her and essentially everything he is doing to me he has done to her! She said it started about a month after he took over. She also said several other people who left also said that he harassed them and even put it in writing. (where those went- I don't know).
> 
> Who knew??!!
> 
> She said her husband told her to make sure she has an exit interview with HR for the benefit of everyone who works at our facility. She's only giving 2 weeks notice, one of which she will be on vacation. Next week the tyrant is on vacation so she figures she can stick it out.
> 
> She actually does not need the money and she will be able to get something else if she wants down the line. I was kind of jealous because now she will be going to her summer home for about a month to unwind.
> 
> I kind of felt really good after speaking with her as I never knew this was happening and I felt that now I know for sure I am not crazy and it isn't only me and the first woman he let go. I feel kind of relieved in a way now and not putting any pressure on myself with the work. He hasn't answered several emails I had sent him where I need his input and I frankly don't care anymore. The projects just won't get done.
> 
> The COO's brother, who is working on graphic designs with me, was getting impatient because I couldn't give him the go ahead on some stuff and sent him an email himself and the boss didn't respond to him either!
> 
> Another woman- a young one this time- walked out yesterday. She had been with us about a year I think.
> 
> And- another very experienced employee (in her 50's) showed me some of the emails he has sent her recently and she was fuming! They were of the tone similar to the ones he sends me.
> 
> To top it all off- his pride and joy employee who he says is running the place with him- a lovely young woman- was seen crying in the parking lot yesterday.
> 
> The plot thickens....I am actually starting to enjoy this Sh&&^$#t show! LOL!


Keep in that enjoy mode and keep smiling.  Eventually he will get his.  He is obviously snowing the boss and in time with the departures, complaints, crying and exit interviews he will hopefully be gone.  The strong remain standing and the nasty liars eventually get caught and are gone. 

 I know because I lived though it. I once had a Complaint against me that was totally false, the woman convincing management it was true because of my husbands death and I couldn't cope, the lowest.  I was accused of demeaning things I never said.  I was forced to continuing working  with the woman.  This woman once told me I should have gotten the promotion not you.  When I am done with you, you will be fired and I will have your job.   I am a principle kind of gal and just stuck thru it.  They eventually transferred me to a better position, she did not get my job, she quit and I happily retired.


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## bbodb1

vacationhopeful said:


> Like you, I was terminated from a job after 9+ years. It is a life changing event. *Yes, some will say "Best thing EVER" but they MIGHT mean it is difficult time AND just plain horrible part of that time*. Many times just TRY to put a positive spin on the layoff ... SAYING "this is NOT going to CRUSH ME". And you will survive.
> 
> *Do not let a company or job image DEFINE who you are. It is a JOB.* They pay you but do not own you. The worst assignment I had once, was where I had to count & shuffle some papers. DUMB and repetitive grunt work .... I was getting $40+/hour back in the early 1980s ... I had 2 undergraduate college degrees and a Masters. SO ... I chanted in my mind "$1, $2, $3, $4 and *$5*!"



This indeed.
Being laid off - especially when you are told it was for financial reasons within the company and you were told you could reapply for any job immediately - sucks and is a kick in the groin.
While there is never a good way to handle a layoff, the company I used to work for found just about every crappy way to handle them.


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## Fredflintstone

Two years back, I worked with the Government and just got tired of the BS. Even though my job was never at risk, I quit one day in my mid 50s and set up my own business that earns 4 x more. So, many times moving on whether it be forcefully or by choice ends up being the best outcome for you. 


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## DaveNV

Fredflintstone said:


> Two years back, I worked with the Government and just got tired of the BS. Even though my job was never at risk, I quit one day in my mid 50s and set up my own business that earns 4 x more. So, many times moving on whether it be forcefully or by choice ends up being the best outcome for you.



Agreed, as long as the "moving on" is on *your* terms, and not because you were wrongfully dismissed.

Dave


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## Fredflintstone

I agree Dave in a way. If you are wrongfully dismissed, you sue their a$$ off and still move on. 




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## am1

DaveNW said:


> Agreed, as long as the "moving on" is on *your* terms, and not because you were wrongfully dismissed.
> 
> Dave



The op does not seem motivated to move on.  Maybe she is right in sticking it out is easier then finding a new job.


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## DaveNV

Fredflintstone said:


> I agree Dave in a way. If you are wrongfully dismissed, you sue their a$$ off and still move on.



No doubt.  If you haven't taken time to do so, read this thread from the beginning.  Mpumilia is in the middle of a real work crisis, none of it her doing.

Dave


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## Fredflintstone

Agreed Dave. I hate to say it but age factors in the minds of many as “I m too old to get another job. No one will hire me.” So they hang in there. I do see that when money is an issue. However, I also see life as too short to be miserable at a job where you fight 1/3 of your life away.

I made major changes in my mid 50s and yes it was hard at first but ended up way better in the end. Also, change is hard and thus motivates people to stay put.


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## VacationForever

I think many people, young and old, work at places where they are unhappy but with no good alternatives to work elsewhere.  In my prior work, the motto was that we all owned our employability and we had to make ourselves valuable to the organization.  If we weren't we were out.  After years of layoffs, and mind you, they continue to make billions each year, they decided to get rid of older folks who had many years in the company by offering significant financial incentives.  It was a win-win as the company avoided an age discrimination lawsuit and everyone I know took the separation package and retired.  Unfortunately Mary Ann does not work in such a company who could offer an attractive separation package.


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## DaveNV

Fredflintstone said:


> Agreed Dave. I hate to say it but age factors in the minds of many as “I m too old to get another job. No one will hire me.” So they hang in there. I do see that when money is an issue. However, I also see life as too short to be miserable at a job where you fight 1/3 of your life away.
> 
> I made major changes in my mid 50s and yes it was hard at first but ended up way better in the end. Also, change is hard and thus motivates people to stay put.


 
I also made a major career shift in my mid-50s, and although I stayed in the same industry, (IT), I changed employers and went from a private engineering manufacturing firm to work for a busy regional hospital system.  I'm still there, ten+ years later.  I will most likely retire next year.  I intend to stay viable with the company, work the next year, then go out on a high note.  But I'm in a good situation - I'm doing a job they need, and my boss is a non-confrontational manager who lets his staff be the professionals they were hired and trained to be.

Others at my age don't necessarily have that option, and the idea of losing their job a few years shy of retirement can be a daunting situation. They may not be able to support themselves financially, they may have health insurance needs, and it can completely turn their retirement expectations upside down.  Age discrimination in the workplace is a very real thing, as Mary Ann is experiencing.  Going independent isn't always an option.

Here's hoping she can hang in there till she can leave on her terms.  And frankly, I hope this [insert profane name here] she works for gets handed his hat, and is summarily shown the door, with a firm kick in the rear - after he loses the lawsuits that need to be filed against him AND the company.  (But maybe that's just me.  )

Dave


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## Fredflintstone

Naw, it’s not you. The company and this fellow needs a lesson. Yes, age discrimination is prevalent and harms people in their final working years. Sadly, many suck up the torment on a daily basis never knowing when the axe will far (as in this lady’s case). Even though the company deserves a lawsuit, it’s sometimes not worth the money to stay and experience stress related health issues like heart attack, stroke, etc. I do wish this lady well and hope her job solutions come soon enough.


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## VacationForever

DaveNW said:


> And frankly, I hope this [insert profane name here] she works for gets handed his hat, and is summarily shown the door, with a firm kick in the rear - after he loses the lawsuits that need to be filed against him AND the company.  (But maybe that's just me.  )
> 
> Dave



I just want to make sure you know that in many organizations, the manager(s) are that way because they have been instructed by their superiors and HR to act that way to try to get rid of their staff.  Companies will never admit it.


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## Fredflintstone

As a final note, I suppose I am lucky I live in Canada where health insurance is not an issue. I suppose health insurance from work in the US is a major issue especially as one is older. That is something that, in my opinion, shouldn’t need to be a consideration. But, I can look into the lens and certainly understand how important a consideration that is.


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## DaveNV

VacationForever said:


> I just want to make sure you know that in many organizations, the manager(s) are that way because they have been instructed by their superiors and HR to act that way to try to get rid of their staff.  Companies will never admit it.



I agree.  But this guy is driving out younger people too. It needs to stop.

Dave


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## WinniWoman

So karmic- the day before I went on vacation that ad for my position was posted on line. 

The day I came back from vacation, another ad was posted for the exact job I do now- except for a local hospital.

I didn't apply for either one of them! LOL!


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## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> The op does not seem motivated to move on.  Maybe she is right in sticking it out is easier then finding a new job.




That is exactly right. I always said this would be my last job It's not like I am 25. Comes a point in life for some people that they just don't have it in them anymore to go work elsewhere and try to get re- motivated only to deal with the same old stuff all over again.

When it comes down to it most jobs are the same old sh**%#!@^t- just working for someone else.

I was hoping this new company would be better than the last but obviously they are dirt bags as they allow this guy to run the place. The doctors I work with can't even believe it. Who knows? They may be using him and his psycho ways to do the bad deeds and then will let him go also!


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## WinniWoman

Fredflintstone said:


> Agreed Dave. I hate to say it but age factors in the minds of many as “I m too old to get another job. No one will hire me.” So they hang in there. I do see that when money is an issue. However, I also see life as too short to be miserable at a job where you fight 1/3 of your life away.
> 
> I made major changes in my mid 50s and yes it was hard at first but ended up way better in the end. Also, change is hard and thus motivates people to stay put.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



The difference between your 50's and 60's are 2 different animals. I actually started this job at age 50 (while my dad was sick and dying in a hospital- talk about stress) after big changes and restructuring at a previous job- and working 2 part-time jobs until I could again get a full time one- which is the one I have now- so been there- done that!!! Several times over! How much can one take?!

In fact- I am of the generation of constant company takeovers and layoffs and always bounced right back- always got jobs immediately after each layoff or restructuring- very good at interviewing.  Never hesitated to go right after the next job. In my entire life since age 16, I was only unemployed once for 1 month and another time for 3 months while looking for my next job.

So now I am tired. So what?

am1 seems to think because I really always hated working and wanted to be a homemaker, and like a degree of, freedom and independence, that I am some kind of slouch, or have a bad attitude, but he is so wrong...I venture to say most people are more like me than like him. He is his own boss, I believe, so he is on the other side of this coin and has a whole 'nother perspective, but the wrong one imo.

Sorry. I work to live. I don't live to work. Companies treat employees as little chess pieces they can just move around the board. There's no humanity in business anymore. I guess there really never was. It's just gotten worse.


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## Panina

mpumilia said:


> The difference between your 50's and 60's are 2 different animals. I actually started this job at age 50 (while my dad was sick and dying in a hospital- talk about stress) after big changes and restructuring at a previous job- and working 2 part-time jobs until I could again get a full time one- which is the one I have now- so been there- done that!!! Several times over! How much can one take?!
> 
> In fact- I am of the generation of constant company takeovers and layoffs and always bounced right back- always got jobs immediately after each layoff or restructuring- very good at interviewing.  Never hesitated to go right after the next job. I was only unemployed once for 1 month and another time for 3 months while looking for my next job.
> 
> So now I am tired. So what?
> 
> am1 seems to think because I really always hated working and wanted to be a homemaker that I am some kind of slouch but he is so wrong...I venture to say most people are more like me than like him- who obviously loves working and putting up with bs. Not me. I have more self respect than that.
> 
> I work to live I don't live to work.


People that live to work will not understand people who work to live. I am with you. When I retired I never looked back. As great as I was at my job and as much as I enjoyed my job I love being retired better.  I have friends that retired that never adjusted and hate retirement.


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## klpca

mpumilia said:


> The difference between your 50's and 60's are 2 different animals. I actually started this job at age 50 (while my dad was sick and dying in a hospital- talk about stress) after big changes and restructuring at a previous job- and working 2 part-time jobs until I could again get a full time one- which is the one I have now- so been there- done that!!! Several times over! How much can one take?!
> 
> In fact- I am of the generation of constant company takeovers and layoffs and always bounced right back- always got jobs immediately after each layoff or restructuring- very good at interviewing.  Never hesitated to go right after the next job. In my entire life since age 16, I was only unemployed once for 1 month and another time for 3 months while looking for my next job.
> 
> So now I am tired. So what?
> 
> am1 seems to think because I really always hated working and wanted to be a homemaker, and like a degree of, freedom and independence, that I am some kind of slouch, or have a bad attitude, but he is so wrong...I venture to say most people are more like me than like him. He is his own boss, I believe, so he is on the other side of this coin and has a whole 'nother perspective, but the wrong one imo.
> 
> Sorry. I work to live. I don't live to work. Companies treat employees as little chess pieces they can just move around the board. There's no humanity in business anymore. I guess there really never was. It's just gotten worse.


See - no one knew your story - and everyone has one. Just keep doing what is right for you because you are the only one who knows you and your story.


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## presley

Glad to hear it isn't personal - just his normal MO. Doesn't make it any less stressful, but at least now you know that is has nothing at all to do with you or your age.


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## joestein

Reading all of this makes me so thankful for my job.   

My wife.... not so lucky.  Her job is trying to force out her entire department and move the jobs out of NYC to NC or India.   She and her co-workers feel that they are making the work environment as difficult and depressing as possible as to get people to quit and not have to pay out a severance package.


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## WinniWoman

joestein said:


> Reading all of this makes me so thankful for my job.
> 
> My wife.... not so lucky.  Her job is trying to force out her entire department and move the jobs out of NYC to NC or India.   She and her co-workers feel that they are making the work environment as difficult and depressing as possible as to get people to quit and not have to pay out a severance package.



Or unemployment claims!


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## am1

I do not think your are a slouch.  I would not want you working for me as you have stated you have all but given up on this job.  Just collecting a pay check.  You may be right to feel that way in regards to your company.  I prefer hungry and motivated people.  Also if someone does not want to work then quit.  Nothing is more dissapointing when after a good thing is going that the person quits or effectively quits by not showing up, has an attitude etc.  They can always get a new job and know it and I can always find someone else.  

I wish you the best in your situation but feel that is you not working there.  There is a reason why others have quit. 

It seems the bigger problem is that people feel they cannot quit as they want their retirement, severance or unemployment.  Would rather wait it out and be miserable.  

I would be all for unemployment being self funded in an account and anyone who does not use theirs get rolled into their self funded retirement account compared to the current situation where people pay in and never see a fine and others look forward to unemployment every chance they get. This way people have more freedom to leave.  Maybe severances being mandatory based on years served or eliminated.


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## bluehende

mpumilia said:


> So karmic- the day before I went on vacation that ad for my position was posted on line.
> 
> The day I came back from vacation, another ad was posted for the exact job I do now- except for a local hospital.
> 
> I didn't apply for either one of them! LOL!



Why not apply to the hospital job?  You can always turn it down if it is not to your liking.  Seems like no down side to checking it out.


----------



## Patri

am1 said:


> I would not want you working for me as you have stated you have all but given up on this job.  Just collecting a pay check.  You may be right to feel that way in regards to your company.  I prefer hungry and motivated people.  Also if someone does not want to work then quit.  Nothing is more dissapointing when after a good thing is going that the person quits or effectively quits by not showing up, has an attitude etc.  They can always get a new job and know it and I can always find someone else.
> I wish you the best in your situation but feel that is you not working there.  There is a reason why others have quit.
> It seems the bigger problem is that people feel they cannot quit as they want their retirement, severance or unemployment.  Would rather wait it out and be miserable.
> I would be all for unemployment being self funded in an account and anyone who does not use theirs get rolled into their self funded retirement account compared to the current situation where people pay in and never see a fine and others look forward to unemployment every chance they get. This way people have more freedom to leave.  Maybe severances being mandatory based on years served or eliminated.



Weird post, and just mean. What percent of Americans do not love their job? Pretty high, I bet. But they have to pay their bills. It would be foolish for anyone to quit until they have another job lined up. And it is very wise to hang on for retirement benefits, healthcare, etc. Too many jobs nowadays are through temp agencies, and there are no benefits! Around here many of the companies keep people for the 90 days and then do not offer a fulltime, permanent job. They keep stringing the people along. The workforce is always on the lookout for something more solid for their future. They are aware of the hiring games.
Mary Ann is still a professional in her job. Her clients love her. And she is absolutely right that looking for work in your 60s is a hard go. I'm thinking I would not want to work for you either.


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## bluehende

VacationForever said:


> I think many people, young and old, work at places where they are unhappy but with no good alternatives to work elsewhere.  In my prior work, the motto was that we all owned our employability and we had to make ourselves valuable to the organization.  If we weren't we were out.  After years of layoffs, and mind you, they continue to make billions each year, they decided to get rid of older folks who had many years in the company by offering significant financial incentives.  It was a win-win as the company avoided an age discrimination lawsuit and everyone I know took the separation package and retired.  Unfortunately Mary Ann does not work in such a company who could offer an attractive separation package.



I am assuming we are still talking my old company.  Those were the days.  It is a shame I wasn't a bit older at the time.  They gave about 3 or 4 incentives to have people retire as at that point their pension fund was way overfunded.  They basically used it to get rid of operating costs.  Funny how they are in trouble now for being underfunded.  Most of the underfunding was when overfunding of pension was allowed to be used for health care costs for employees.  I forget which genius president allowed that.
    They kept upping the ante until the last one was   adding five years to age and service along with moving the calculator for pension form 1.2 to 1.5.  Now that was a gift.  For someone in their mid fifties it was a doubling of pension or even more.  Even if you were at full retirement it was at least 40%.  The best story was a researcher next to me took it.  He was collecting 50% of his salary and all benefits as a pension.  His expertise was needed (they could not block him from taking the deal).  He became a contractor at well over his old salary.  They paid contractors more as they didn't provide benefits.  Yep the same benefits he was getting through his pension.
    They stopped those.  When I went I got the normal severance.  Not bad as it was 1 yr of salary and benefits.


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## bbodb1

bluehende said:


> Why not apply to the hospital job?  You can always turn it down if it is not to your liking.  Seems like no down side to checking it out.


Yes, indeed. 
Options are a wonderful thing.


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## bbodb1

As I've read this thread over the past weeks and months, I strongly agree with the notion that our current working environment is moving toward the caustic for the employee and more for the benefit of the employer.  *The primary fault for this lies with employers who (for whatever reasons) place financial goals on the altar of worship while simultaneously placing employees on the altar of sacrifice.*  There was a time when I had loyalty to an employer because they (in turn) created an environment where work was rewarded, high performance recognized financially (and with promotions) and elements of mobility to (toward) new and emerging projects.  What caused employers to turn a blind eye toward the work environment and solely focus on the financial bottom line isn't exactly clear but whatever it was that was the source of the cancer.

Today, there is NO way I do more for my employer than my job description requires.  Why?  Because the employer will gladly take the extra effort, smile like the cheshire cat, lavish (worthless) verbal praise and then expect me to do this same new level of effort from that point forward with NO compensation adjustment of any kind.

Employers are getting the work environment they deserve because they created it.  Putting this jeanie back in the bottle is going to be difficult.


----------



## am1

Patri said:


> Weird post, and just mean. What percent of Americans do not love their job? Pretty high, I bet. But they have to pay their bills. It would be foolish for anyone to quit until they have another job lined up. And it is very wise to hang on for retirement benefits, healthcare, etc. Too many jobs nowadays are through temp agencies, and there are no benefits! Around here many of the companies keep people for the 90 days and then do not offer a fulltime, permanent job. They keep stringing the people along. The workforce is always on the lookout for something more solid for their future. They are aware of the hiring games.
> Mary Ann is still a professional in her job. Her clients love her. And she is absolutely right that looking for work in your 60s is a hard go. I'm thinking I would not want to work for you either.




Was not meant to be mean it was meant to be honest.  People do not have to hate or not like their job.  Take pride in a job well done and bettering themselves.  I do not understand why people would want to stay miserable at a job they do not like and actually resent.  I guess the consequences of quitting seem too high but what about the consequences of sticking it out?  Obviously not the same as before when people were lifers at a company.


----------



## bluehende

bbodb1 said:


> As I've read this thread over the past weeks and months, I strongly agree with the notion that our current working environment is moving toward the caustic for the employee and more for the benefit of the employer.  *The primary fault for this lies with employers who (for whatever reasons) place financial goals on the altar of worship while simultaneously placing employees on the altar of sacrifice.*  There was a time when I had loyalty to an employer because they (in turn) created an environment where work was rewarded, high performance recognized financially (and with promotions) and elements of mobility to (toward) new and emerging projects.  What caused employers to turn a blind eye toward the work environment and solely focus on the financial bottom line isn't exactly clear but whatever it was that was the source of the cancer.
> 
> Today, there is NO way I do more for my employer than my job description requires.  Why?  Because the employer will gladly take the extra effort, smile like the cheshire cat, lavish (worthless) verbal praise and then expect me to do this same new level of effort from that point forward with NO compensation adjustment of any kind.
> 
> Employers are getting the work environment they deserve because they created it.  Putting this jeanie back in the bottle is going to be difficult.



I am not sure either what started this trend.  I do know that I watched companies feeling they had some obligation to their employees as to job safety to employees are a cost to be managed as cheaply as possible.  It is pretty hard to give 110% when you are being told that your salary is a liability we are going to watch closely.  I worked in research and saw the negative effect of thinking employees could be plugged into a position if someone found greener pastures elsewhere.  It was easily  measured in the decline of new product development.  What was one of the great research communities in the world barely exists now and a company that stood for 225 yrs is gone.  You are 100% right that the genie is never going back into the bottle.  Having seen both sides I do not think this was a good trend.  My kids have great educations and jobs, but the stress they are under is enormous.  I have no evidence , but I believe this is the largest cause of the rate of suicides increasing.


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## joestein

bbodb1 said:


> As I've read this thread over the past weeks and months, I strongly agree with the notion that our current working environment is moving toward the caustic for the employee and more for the benefit of the employer.  *The primary fault for this lies with employers who (for whatever reasons) place financial goals on the altar of worship while simultaneously placing employees on the altar of sacrifice.*  There was a time when I had loyalty to an employer because they (in turn) created an environment where work was rewarded, high performance recognized financially (and with promotions) and elements of mobility to (toward) new and emerging projects.  What caused employers to turn a blind eye toward the work environment and solely focus on the financial bottom line isn't exactly clear but whatever it was that was the source of the cancer.
> 
> Today, there is NO way I do more for my employer than my job description requires.  Why?  Because the employer will gladly take the extra effort, smile like the cheshire cat, lavish (worthless) verbal praise and then expect me to do this same new level of effort from that point forward with NO compensation adjustment of any kind.
> 
> Employers are getting the work environment they deserve because they created it.  Putting this jeanie back in the bottle is going to be difficult.





Can't agree more.  I would love a change in law similar to Germany that require employees to hold 50% - 30% of the seats on the BOD, depending on the size of the company.


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## bbodb1

Panina said:


> People that live to work will not understand people who work to live. I am with you. When I retired I never looked back. As great as I was at my job and as much as I enjoyed my job I love being retired better.  I have friends that retired that never adjusted and hate retirement.


Exactly.
When the day comes where I can retire, do not stand between me and the door! 
I will NOT miss work one iota!


----------



## heathpack

am1 said:


> I do not think your are a slouch.  I would not want you working for me as you have stated you have all but given up on this job.  Just collecting a pay check.  You may be right to feel that way in regards to your company.  I prefer hungry and motivated people.  Also if someone does not want to work then quit.  Nothing is more dissapointing when after a good thing is going that the person quits or effectively quits by not showing up, has an attitude etc.  They can always get a new job and know it and I can always find someone else.
> 
> I wish you the best in your situation but feel that is you not working there.  There is a reason why others have quit.
> 
> It seems the bigger problem is that people feel they cannot quit as they want their retirement, severance or unemployment.  Would rather wait it out and be miserable.
> 
> I would be all for unemployment being self funded in an account and anyone who does not use theirs get rolled into their self funded retirement account compared to the current situation where people pay in and never see a fine and others look forward to unemployment every chance they get. This way people have more freedom to leave.  Maybe severances being mandatory based on years served or eliminated.



I am a boss at my place of employment- nominally.  I’m not officially paid to manage anything but I run my department and the expectation is that it will run smoothly, be profitable, generate good reviews and build the business.  It does all of those things.  My staffing situation is very stable, I have very qualified and capable people working for me.  For our industry, they are well compensated.  But for LA, they are not particularly well compensated.

Yet my people don’t leave, even though they are routinely recruited by our competitors.  Why?  In part because I explicitly spend mental energy on figuring out what motivates my people to stay and I put effort into feeding that.  What kind of stuff?  Responsibility, not the pointless kind.  If I delegate something to them, they can take that to completion and have the resources to do so.  Trust.  Conversations that are two way exchanges, I listen and don’t just order people around.  Clear and consistent expectations.  Not putting people in impossible situations.  Respecting their personal lives.  Respecting the quality of their work.  Advocating for them in the bigger institution when the shit hits the fan.

Corporate comes to meet with those of us running departments- our practice overall has huge turnover and they want us to troubleshoot why.  Hmm.  My suggestion is: why don’t you ask the people who are resistant to being lured away why they resist?  That’s where your answer is.

It’s a completely utterly 100% wrong way of looking at being a boss that de facto everyone who works for you should be happy and grateful to be there just by virtue of the fact that you’re giving them a paycheck.  Managers/bosses/business owners IMO are negligent and not doing *their* jobs if they don’t figure out what motivates their employees and gives work meaning.  This is what’s wrong with modern American business.  Businesses see humans as expendable and the employer-employee relationship as a one way street: “my way or the highway”.

If mpulia worked for me and was as unhappy as she is, I’d see the first responsibility of mine to be understanding why she’s so miserable and whether I have a role in it.  If I have a role in it and the grievance is legit, I need to try to fix what I can.  If I have a role it it but the issue realistically can’t be fixed (ie the job is just not right for that person), then we need to part ways.  If the employee just has a bad attitude period, then I let them go.

But this modern sense of employers that the management can be truly awful to people and the employee should just suck it up and be grateful for the job: f that completely.


----------



## bogey21

bbodb1 said:


> Today, there is NO way I do more for my employer than my job description requires.  Why?  Because the employer will gladly take the extra effort, smile like the cheshire cat, lavish (worthless) verbal praise and then expect me to do this same new level of effort from that point forward with NO compensation adjustment of any kind.



No question that today's work environment has in many ways changed over the years.  But in looking back at my career I prospered by doing everything I could to excel whether it was immediately recognized or not.  Sure I had to change jobs a couple of times but I went from making $300 per month from my first employer (Nabisco) to over $200,000 per year with my last (a large Bank).  Never once did I put out less than a maximum effort and never once did I have to ask for a raise...

George


----------



## am1

heathpack said:


> I am a boss at my place of employment- nominally.  I’m not officially paid to manage anything but I run my department and the expectation is that it will run smoothly, be profitable, generate good reviews and build the business.  It does all of those things.  My staffing situation is very stable, I have very qualified and capable people working for me.  For our industry, they are well compensated.  But for LA, they are not particularly well compensated.
> 
> Yet my people don’t leave, even though they are routinely recruited by our competitors.  Why?  In part because I explicitly spend mental energy on figuring out what motivates my people to stay and I put effort into feeding that.  What kind of stuff?  Responsibility, not the pointless kind.  If I delegate something to them, they can take that to completion and have the resources to do so.  Trust.  Conversations that are two way exchanges, I listen and don’t just order people around.  Clear and consistent expectations.  Not putting people in impossible situations.  Respecting their personal lives.  Respecting the quality of their work.  Advocating for them in the bigger institution when the shit hits the fan.
> 
> Corporate comes to meet with those of us running departments- our practice overall has huge turnover and they want us to troubleshoot why.  Hmm.  My suggestion is: why don’t you ask the people who are resistant to being lured away why they resist?  That’s where your answer is.
> 
> It’s a completely utterly 100% wrong way of looking at being a boss that de facto everyone who works for you should be happy and grateful to be there just by virtue of the fact that you’re giving them a paycheck.  Managers/bosses/business owners IMO are negligent and not doing *their* jobs if they don’t figure out what motivates their employees and gives work meaning.  This is what’s wrong with modern American business.  Businesses see humans as expendable and the employer-employee relationship as a one way street: “my way or the highway”.
> 
> If mpulia worked for me and was as unhappy as she is, I’d see the first responsibility of mine to be understanding why she’s so miserable and whether I have a role in it.  If I have a role in it and the grievance is legit, I need to try to fix what I can.  If I have a role it it but the issue realistically can’t be fixed (ie the job is just not right for that person), then we need to part ways.  If the employee just has a bad attitude period, then I let them go.
> 
> But this modern sense of employers that the management can be truly awful to people and the employee should just suck it up and be grateful for the job: f that completely.



Thats sound great and should be implemented elsewhere.  Having good people stay is worth a lot value.  No doubt a lot of managers/owners could learn a few or even a lot of things.  Sometimes we cannot change them and only change ourself.  

In the op's case there is a lot she does not like about the job.  Most likely no matter what would fall in the category of parting ways regardless of who is boss is.  Short lunches, low pay, lots of driving are a few she has mentioned.  If one thinks they are paid too little they should ask for a raise or find a better opportunity or if just starting out work towards a better opportunity.  If someone is just going to stay in a job they do not like and do not appreciate and do not voice their concerns then that is not a person that is growing and wanting to be better then they are today.


----------



## vikingsholm

mpumilia, a new job working for heathpack sounds about right for you. 

Just gotta watch the timeshare chatter at work with her though. Might take over your days.

Too bad you live about as far away from each other as you can get in the US....


----------



## WinniWoman

bluehende said:


> Why not apply to the hospital job?  You can always turn it down if it is not to your liking.  Seems like no down side to checking it out.



You have to read my other posts to understand. I am burnt to a crisp. I don't even have a resume on my computer anymore. Like I said- this will be my last job unless I get really desperate.

In the end- all these jobs end up being the same BS. I know. I've had lots of them over my lifetime.

Just so everyone is clear- my actual job is very repetitive- can be very boring sometimes - but the good thing about it is I am outdoors and out of the office and I get to speak with mostly nice people all day. Most of the people at our facility are also very nice.

It's all the other junk I have to deal with with the boss and the company that obviously stinks. The micromanaging and the bullying and the inconsideration.Over the years tolerating cutting back our PTO time and lunch break. Gone- the incentive bonus plan. Forget raises. The others have their schedules changed on a daily basis. Check the schedule before you go home so you know what time you are working tomorrow. Have a child care issue or a pre-scheduled doctors appt.? Too bad. That's the shift you work tomorrow or you are fired.

We all joke that soon they will ask us to come in for free! LOL!

There's nothing "fun" or uplifting. Nothing motivating about the atmosphere. Just nothing nice comes down from the top. We all feel it. It's not just me. I know the difference when I look back at the jobs I had in the beginning of my work life.

Management thinks if they throw a couple of $10 gift cards at the front desk staff for scheduling the most appt's or whatever, that that will keep them happy. Uh- not really. It's the feel of the place that is lacking. That people would feel valuable and respected and at least a little happy.

That is what makes it stressful. That- and of course- the schedule of work which is tiring. I do a lot of driving (plus my commute) and have been through a lot of cars - they don't give me a company car either. Anwyay- it's a long day.

One thing about me is I am a bit idiosyncratic so I can block a lot of this out- especially when I am out of the office- and that is how I make it work during the day. I have to be upbeat on my job and I have the personality for it.  That's my lemonade (out of the lemons).


----------



## vikingsholm

mpumilia said:


> You have to read my other posts to understand. I am burnt to a crisp.


I did, but thought it was a funny little bit of synchronicity.


----------



## vikingsholm

vikingsholm said:


> I did, but thought it was a funny little bit of synchronicity.


mp, in case my previous post here didn't fully make sense, I thought your comment was replying to my first comment about heathpack and her approach as a supervisor.

I didn't notice that you were replying to bluehende when I made this comment, since your's came in so soon after I made my first comment. So, I was just talking about how your work issues would probably be resolved if you had a boss like heathpack, in case I got confusing there....


----------



## HitchHiker71

Fredflintstone said:


> Agreed Dave. I hate to say it but age factors in the minds of many as “I m too old to get another job. No one will hire me.” So they hang in there. I do see that when money is an issue. However, I also see life as too short to be miserable at a job where you fight 1/3 of your life away.
> 
> I made major changes in my mid 50s and yes it was hard at first but ended up way better in the end. Also, change is hard and thus motivates people to stay put.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Exactly.  The process of differentiation (real change and self improvement) always results in uncertainty which moves us out of our comfort zones.  Being out of our comfort zones is a good thing in moderation as this is what improves us as human beings over time.  We avoid change like this because of the uncertainty factors and fear of real personal change on some level.  

It is only when the pain of staying the same (or in the same situation) outweighs the uncertainties we see and the pain of having to endure real change, that we will make the choice to move out of our comfort zone and embrace the uncertain future on our own terms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bbodb1

vikingsholm said:


> I did, but thought it was a funny little bit of synchronicity.


_I or II?_


----------



## vikingsholm

Synchronicity I would better describe the situation if she got to work with heathpack.

Synchronicity II, on the other hand, sounds more like her current situation.


----------



## WinniWoman

vikingsholm said:


> mp, in case my previous post here didn't fully make sense, I thought your comment was replying to my first comment about heathpack and her approach as a supervisor.
> 
> I didn't notice that you were replying to bluehende when I made this comment, since your's came in so soon after I made my first comment. So, I was just talking about how your work issues would probably be resolved if you had a boss like heathpack, in case I got confusing there....




No. I got it!


----------



## Timeshare Von

Bart so sorry for your family's loss.

You're correct the loss of "just a job" can be devastating.  I pray for you all to find peace over time.


----------



## joestein

bogey21 said:


> No question that today's work environment has in many ways changed over the years.  But in looking back at my career I prospered by doing everything I could to excel whether it was immediately recognized or not.  Sure I had to change jobs a couple of times but I went from making $300 per month from my first employer (Nabisco) to over $200,000 per year with my last (a large Bank).  Never once did I put out less than a maximum effort and never once did I have to ask for a raise...
> 
> George



I think that is the secret to exceling in your career.   Too many people don't care about what they do, they just want to get it done.    I have found success in my career by not only caring about what I do and making sure it is right, but making sure the recipient of my work has everything they need to get the most out what I have done. 

Joe


----------



## bbodb1

joestein said:


> I think that is the secret to exceling in your career.   Too many people don't care about what they do, they just want to get it done.    I have found success in my career by not only caring about what I do and making sure it is right, but making sure the recipient of my work has everything they need to get the most out what I have done.
> 
> Joe


Joe,

Your definition is right on but only covers the portion of the equation one can directly control.  If your employer does not value the contribution you make, it is only natural your efforts will wane.

That is where far too many people find themselves these days - working for employers who don't value the contribution their employees make.  In pointing this out, the lazy employer usually replies with an insightful(?) observation along the lines of recognition is achieved via a pay check or a person's pay is what the market demands.  Too few employers can be bothered anymore to perform an honest appraisal of an employee's value. 

I like the standards you define here Joe, but they won't continue in an environment that refuses to properly recognizes them.


----------



## pedro47

Advice and suggestions are very ease to give; but when you have to go to work every day and look at the devil it is very hard IMHO. 
To the OP, my prayers are with; please continue to hang. 
Head UP!


----------



## joestein

bbodb1 said:


> Joe,
> 
> Your definition is right on but only covers the portion of the equation one can directly control.  If your employer does not value the contribution you make, it is only natural your efforts will wane.
> 
> That is where far too many people find themselves these days - working for employers who don't value the contribution their employees make.  In pointing this out, the lazy employer usually replies with an insightful(?) observation along the lines of recognition is achieved via a pay check or a person's pay is what the market demands.  Too few employers can be bothered anymore to perform an honest appraisal of an employee's value.
> 
> I like the standards you define here Joe, but they won't continue in an environment that refuses to properly recognizes them.



I don't disagree, but from a management standpoint, I appreciate those who make my job easier.  I think most people are the same way.


----------



## joestein

pedro47 said:


> Advice and suggestions are very ease to give; but when you have to go to work every day and look at the devil it is very hard IMHO.
> To the OP, my prayers are with; please continue to hang.
> Head UP!



You are right as well.  I had a job when I was 24 YO that was hell.  I felt sick every day having to go to that job.  It was a blessing when I was fired.   On the way out, one of the partners told me that I was stupid and should do something repetitive.


That is why money should not be the ultimate decider of where to work.   You need to weigh your relative happiness as well.  Hopefully a balance between the two can be found.


----------



## DaveNV

joestein said:


> On the way out, one of the partners told me that I was stupid and should do something repetitive.



Wow! That’s pretty harsh.

Dave


----------



## WinniWoman

So the plot thickens. Found out this week that a nurse supervisor that the tyrant hired when he first took over is leaving because of him! She told me today that she has never been treated like she has by him in all her years of nursing- and she has dealt with angry doctors yelling and so on- but nothing like the way this boss deals with her. She thought coming to an outpatient facility would be less stress for her but because of him it has been hell to the point she even has cried out of frustration. Sound familiar? Had to have her husband with her when she handed in her resignation because she was afraid of how he would react!

This Friday she is leaving. The other woman I spoke of in a previous post- the clinical director- her last day is tomorrow. We all had a long conversation. And-another per diem nurse is also gone because of him as well as a couple of other employees, one of whom was only there a month! Another nurse- for whom this is a second job- plans to leave eventually as soon as she can get a second position at the hospital she currently works at.

Between his certifiable personality and his mismanagement it is crazy town.

I passed along the name and phone number and email address of the HR person, since they did not seem too keen on contacting the COO directly. I hope they follow through. I told them I did not want to be the only one who reported him and that it would be the right thing to do for their fellow coworkers. They are resigning so they have nothing to lose like the first woman, who was concerned he would oppose her claim for unemployment or not give her the severance pay.

Looks like we have a "Me Too" movement going on! LOL!


----------



## DaveNV

mpumilia said:


> Looks like we have a "Me Too" movement going on! LOL!



Incredible.  I sincerely hope you're documenting these people's names and dates of departure.  When you quit, you need to walk into the COO's office, and slap down a sheet of paper (or more) with the names and dates of everyone who has left because of this asshat.  Then hand him a detailed account of the entire situation, what he's done, and the problems he's caused.  Then ask whether the company is prepared to go through an EEOC complaint and lawsuit. Unless the COO is in cahoots with the guy, you should get some sort of response. Then you can decide whether to move forward with a formal complaint.

Dave


----------



## WinniWoman

DaveNW said:


> Incredible.  I sincerely hope you're documenting these people's names and dates of departure.  When you quit, you need to walk into the COO's office, and slap down a sheet of paper (or more) with the names and dates of everyone who has left because of this asshat.  Then hand him a detailed account of the entire situation, what he's done, and the problems he's caused.  Then ask whether the company is prepared to go through an EEOC complaint and lawsuit. Unless the COO is in cahoots with the guy, you should get some sort of response. Then you can decide whether to move forward with a formal complaint.
> 
> Dave




Funny you should say that- I actually did that today- wrote their names down.

COO is ironically a SHE! LOL! And- weird- today she was at the facility with the CEO (both are not based here- they are based in the city) and a whole bunch of people who were supposedly investors. I heard they took pictures of the equipment in our smaller facility located across the county (which is not doing well at all). 

Garage sale? LOL!


----------



## maddog497

So sorry you are going through this.

I just read an article yesterday that 75% of people that leave their jobs is a result of either a single manager or the management style itself and nothing to do with the actual work.

It also stated that most bad managers can't see that they are bad managers until it's way too late.

Every day you complete is one less day until you get to enjoy retirement. 

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk


----------



## am1

mpumilia said:


> So the plot thickens. Found out this week that a nurse supervisor that the tyrant hired when he first took over is leaving because of him! She told me today that she has never been treated like she has by him in all her years of nursing- and she has dealt with angry doctors yelling and so on- but nothing like the way this boss deals with her. She thought coming to an outpatient facility would be less stress for her but because of him it has been hell to the point she even has cried out of frustration. Sound familiar? Had to have her husband with her when she handed in her resignation because she was afraid of how he would react!
> 
> This Friday she is leaving. The other woman I spoke of in a previous post- the clinical director- her last day is tomorrow. We all had a long conversation. And-another per diem nurse is also gone because of him as well as a couple of other employees, one of whom was only there a month! Another nurse- for whom this is a second job- plans to leave eventually as soon as she can get a second position at the hospital she currently works at.
> 
> Between his certifiable personality and his mismanagement it is crazy town.
> 
> I passed on the name and phone number and email address of the HR person, since they did not seem too keen on contacting the COO directly. I hope they follow through. I told them I did not want to be the only one who reported him and that it would be the right thing to do for their fellow coworkers. They are resigning so they have nothing to lose like the first woman, who was concerned he would oppose her claim for unemployment or not give her the severance pay.
> 
> Looks like we have a "Me Too" movement going on! LOL!


Maybe he is just a bad manager but nothing intentional on his part.  Far cry from "me too". I do wish you all the best in this.  But your answer may be to quit as the others have.


----------



## heathpack

am1 said:


> Maybe he is just a bad manager but nothing intentional on his part.  Far cry from "me too". I do wish you all the best in this.  But your answer may be to quit as the others have.



How much does it really matter if it is intentional?  You are so determined to be obstinate about a business's "right" to abuse employees that you can't see anything else.

Sure a business can legally hire bad managers but if they drive employees out there can be consequences, because some of the ways in which businesses drive people out are illegal.  Even if a specific manager's behavior turns out in the end to *not* be a violation of the law, there is always concern from HR about the costs of defending a lawsuit or about the consequences of running afoul of regulatory law.

The answer in every case of employee harassment is not simply for the employee to need to quit.  That's why there are employment laws.  We get it- you don't think there should be.  But most people don't agree with you, and there are in fact employment laws, so you can keep repeating that she should quit.  But your saying so over again does not make you correct in this.


----------



## Panina

am1 said:


> Maybe he is just a bad manager but nothing intentional on his part.  Far cry from "me too". I do wish you all the best in this.  But your answer may be to quit as the others have.


I wonder if he harasses men employees.  Harassment whether to men or women is a me too movement, maybe another kind. No company should allow a person to supervise people the way he does, he is harassing many . Mpulmilia I think at this point you could get him fired if you chose to.  You have enough information and pattern and with a lawyers letter the company will probably not want him as a liability.   If it was me I would do what you are now, wait it out, he is ruining his reputation all on his own.  The revolving door has to be obvious to upper management.  I think at the end it will work out for you, one way or another.


----------



## Luanne

am1 said:


> Maybe he is just a bad manager but nothing intentional on his part.  Far cry from "me too". I do wish you all the best in this.  But your answer may be to quit as the others have.


You quit, you walk away with nothing.


----------



## am1

No doubt this is part of the problem with severance/unemployment.  But one walks away with their health, dignity and most importantly their life. 



Luanne said:


> You quit, you walk away with nothing.


----------



## heathpack

am1 said:


> No doubt this is part of the problem with severance/unemployment.  But one walks away with their health, dignity and most importantly their life.



Or they lose their health due to lack of health insurance, they go broke due to lack of health insurance thereby losing their dignity, their autonomy and eventually their life.

Which is part of the reason why there are consequences for employers of driving employees out.  Losing your job is no trivial matter.  It’s not the employers “right” to harass people into quitting so that they don’t have to pay severance or unemployment.


----------



## Egret1986

mpumilia said:


> When it comes down to it most jobs are the same old sh**%#!@^t- just working for someone else.



That's how I feel about it regarding my DH's job.   You're right...when you're older and your work days are nearing the end, to re-motivate, take on the unknown, and to potentially work under similar conditions or worse; it's just not worth the effort to look elsewhere for a job.


----------



## Egret1986

mpumilia said:


> There's nothing "fun" or uplifting. Nothing motivating about the atmosphere. Just nothing nice comes down from the top. We all feel it. It's not just me. I know the difference when I look back at the jobs I had in the beginning of my work life.
> 
> That people would feel valuable and respected and at least a little happy.



I have worked for the same employer for over 29 years (whose counting? ).  The difference in the overall atmosphere is a complete 180 from how things used to be in our facility.  It's the same with my husband's employer.  He's been there 20 years.  I hear it here on TUG.  I hear it from other folks about their employers.  My employer started an employee engagement program a little over two years ago.  Engagement has never been so non-existent...."nothing motivating about the atmosphere."

Yes.  "We all feel it."  No.  It's not just you.  We're all asking ourselves, "what happened?"


----------



## am1

heathpack said:


> Or they lose their health due to lack of health insurance, they go broke due to lack of health insurance thereby losing their dignity, their autonomy and eventually their life.



So health coverage and employment should not be tied together?  No disagreement in that.


----------



## Luanne

am1 said:


> No doubt this is part of the problem with severance/unemployment.  But one walks away with their health, dignity and most importantly their life.


In today's environment, that's not always enough, especially if you have a family to consider.  Severance, unemployment, continued health care are all things to consider.


----------



## dayooper

am1 said:


> So health coverage and employment should not be tied together?  No disagreement in that.



But it is.


----------



## bogey21

I must have been lucky.  Over my almost 50 year career.  I worked for an Accounting Firm, a trucking company, a hotel, a cookie company, a S&L and a Bank and can honestly say I always looked forward to going to work.  Sure I ran into some bad apples from time to time but I either ignored them or ran over them...

George


----------



## am1

dayooper said:


> But it is.



Another discussion but still I could not stay somewhere under those conditions.  Even if nothing illegal was being done.  After my MBA i worked two weeks at a Fortune 500 company and knew it was not for me.  Never looked back.  Not even owning one would be for me.  

I do find most people do not put enough Effort in.  Just happy to do the bare minimum.


----------



## lockewong

maddog497 said:


> It also stated that most bad managers can't see that they are bad managers until it's way too late.



The problem is that the emotional damage a bad manager has is more then emotional, it is physical.  Mostly, bad managers have no self-awareness or insight or empathy, which is why they will never realize they are bad managers.  I was working for an angry and abusive, subtly abusive manager who picked on women and non-Alpha men.   I almost quit.  I found that I would flinch every time I walked into the building.  I found that I never laughed once I arrived at work.  It took years to get my emotional center back.  It was non-documentable harassment but a lot of people finally talked about it...like Mary Ann finding others.  It helps to share and be vindicated.  The situation is not great, but at least, you stop doubting yourself.  Keep fighting, Mary Ann.


----------



## Panina

am1 said:


> No doubt this is part of the problem with severance/unemployment.  But one walks away with their health, dignity and most importantly their life.


Now she  knows he is like this to everyone. She can just continue to do her job the best she can as she has. Ignoring  his behavior is now a possibility as she has the proof she needs to win at the end.  I think at this point mpulmilia can stop internalizing him and basically tune him out as she knows about everyone else. If she doesn’t let it get to her from now on, it won’t affect her health .  She has her dignity as she has not done anything wrong.  I was in a bad situation too and I waited it out leaving on my terms.  The snake was found out.  Her snake will  be found out too.  Many might not  understand why she is staying, I do.  I support her and will celebrate with her when the snake is gone or she gets a payout from the company.


----------



## heathpack

am1 said:


> I do find most people do not put enough Effort in.  Just happy to do the bare minimum.



This is why managers exist.  Management sets expectations, gives employees feedback, assesses performance, gives more feedback, etc.  Employees meet your expectations after reasonable effort on management’s part or they do not.  If they do not, then you do the adult thing and let the person go in a straightforward manner.  

But way way way before that happens, the employee should be well aware and of what the expectations are and how those expectations are not being met.  The employee should always be given the opportunity to meet expectations.

This power the employer holds to hire and fire is not a justification for harassment and creating a toxic workplace environment.  It doesn’t matter if the you decide in your mind that the employee is the type to do the bare minimum, you still have an obligation to work through the process in a respectful manner.  And then if you have a significant number of employees who don’t work out, re-examine your hiring process so that you don’t keep hiring people who fail to perform.


----------



## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> Maybe he is just a bad manager but nothing intentional on his part.  Far cry from "me too". I do wish you all the best in this.  But your answer may be to quit as the others have.




Not intentional? LOL!Are you nuts? This guy is a sociopath! I have known him for 13 years. I know what I am talkign about!

A bad manager? Uh.... gee, ya think?


----------



## WinniWoman

Panina said:


> I wonder if he harasses men employees.  Harassment whether to men or women is a me too movement, maybe another kind. No company should allow a person to supervise people the way he does, he is harassing many . Mpulmilia I think at this point you could get him fired if you chose to.  You have enough information and pattern and with a lawyers letter the company will probably not want him as a liability.   If it was me I would do what you are now, wait it out, he is ruining his reputation all on his own.  The revolving door has to be obvious to upper management.  I think at the end it will work out for you, one way or another.




Was wondering this myself. I do suspect he might be with 2 guys there at least. One of them- who is my age- but seems a lot older and is hard of hearing. I did hear him crack a joke about that in front of him and actually in front of everyone during a staff meeting- which also included the COO and CEO! When he did it I couldn't believe it because this occurred after my contacting the HR person and bringing up age discrimination. But- this guy has no filters. That was proof right there.

Another is a quiet IT guy that I know he does not like and I sometimes wonder how he talks to him, but I don't know.


----------



## PrairieGirl

mpumilia said:


> is hard of hearing. I did hear him crack a joke about that in front of him and actually in front of everyone during a staff meeting- which also included the COO and CEO!


  And this certainly compounds your problem.  For any CEO and a COO to accept this sort of behaviour (and in front of many staff members no less!) without correction indicates to me that they are not strong leaders.


----------



## geist1223

PrairieGirl said:


> And this certainly compounds your problem.  For any CEO and a COO to accept this sort of behaviour (and in front of many staff members no less!) without correction indicates to me that they are not strong leaders.



When I was a Manager/Boss I never corrected a subordinate in front of their subordinates or peers. That is done in private. If they didn't get the message after a private session then they were on their way out.


----------



## am1

mpumilia said:


> Not intentional? LOL!Are you nuts? This guy is a sociopath! I have known him for 13 years. I know what I am talkign about!
> 
> A bad manager? Uh.... gee, ya think?



I think you are missing the point. Lots of bad managers exist everywhere.  They should be fired but there are also bad owners, ceo's etc.  There does not seem to be anything illegal about being a bad manager in itself.  Maybe he is a sociopath but none of us here are ones to diagnose it.   There is a reasonable why other people are quitting left and right.  Maybe you have a case na be not but how long can one put up with what you describe.  If I was the companies lawyer I would ask if it was so bad why did you stay?


----------



## dayooper

am1 said:


> I think you are missing the point. Lots of bad managers exist everywhere.  They should be fired but there are also bad owners, ceo's etc.  There does not seem to be anything illegal about being a bad manager in itself.  Maybe he is a sociopath but none of us here are ones to diagnose it.   There is a reasonable why other people are quitting left and right.  Maybe you have a case na be not but how long can one put up with what you describe.  *If I was the companies lawyer I would ask if it was so bad why did you stay?*



What would this accomplish?


----------



## b2bailey

Good Morning to the OP -- did I see your name is Mary Anne? I have read this thread from the start. I have a request/suggestion for you that comes from my summer reading, and also thinking it might actually be helpful or beneficial to you. Would you be willing to end this thread and start a new one? Kind of like the sequel. I am thinking something like... "Still holding on" or another that has a tiny hope of positive spin. Then again, thought you could call it "Still have my job -- but about to lose my mind." Ha! I hope I am just kidding. Then again, a disability leave could work to ease your pain.
I am happily retired at this point, but in my past I ran into two difficult work situations. Each time I was under 50 and was able to leave and find something new.

And this IS the part of your situation many do not understand. When I was 59 I did a job search based on a desire to relocate to San Diego. Had several good interviews. One basically told me it was "in the bag" -- but had one more candidate to talk to. Next day I was told "sorry". My husband said to me: "But you were perfect for the job" My reply: "They must have found a 45 year old version of me." 

Unless you have faced the competition of this job market after the age of 60 -- I would not encourage her to "just leave".


----------



## bluehende

am1 said:


> I think you are missing the point. Lots of bad managers exist everywhere.  They should be fired but there are also bad owners, ceo's etc.  There does not seem to be anything illegal about being a bad manager in itself.  Maybe he is a sociopath but none of us here are ones to diagnose it.   There is a reasonable why other people are quitting left and right.  Maybe you have a case na be not but how long can one put up with what you describe.  *If I was the companies lawyer I would ask if it was so bad why did you stay?*



The obvious answer is that after I informed HR of his illegal behavior I thought it would stop.
or

Why should I leave over his illegal harassment. I do not understand why I had to give up everything I have worked for over 13 yrs.

or

I was completely trapped (insert tears here) with no options.  Leaving would have been devastating for my financial well being and without my health insurance my health would be vulnerable.


----------



## SandyPGravel

Egret1986 said:


> I have worked for the same employer for over 29 years (whose counting? ).  The difference in the overall atmosphere is a complete 180 from how things used to be in our facility.  It's the same with my husband's employer.  He's been there 20 years.  I hear it here on TUG.  I hear it from other folks about their employers.  My employer started an employee engagement program a little over two years ago.  Engagement has never been so non-existent...."nothing motivating about the atmosphere."
> 
> Yes.  "We all feel it."  No.  It's not just you.  We're all asking ourselves, "what happened?"



I think you and I work at the same place  Although I'll have 30 years in Aug 15.  We just received our engagement scores, yeah we take a survey on engagement every year.  Shocking, number keeps going down. 

I'm 49 looking for a new job.  Seems to be a double edge sword obviously I'm not a job hopper, but I think the prospective employers might be thinking I'm close to retirement.  I've got 17+ years to go.  I thought I would be here until retirement, just can't picture that anymore. My place of employment used to be the place that was impossible to get a job.  You had to have a connection to get considered.  Now we can't keep anyone and we have a revolving cascade of temp workers.  I work in IT(I work for a distribution center) but my degree is 30 years old and things have changed so much.  My skills are outdated.  I have tried to apply for administrative assistant jobs elsewhere but either my skill set there isn't good enough or I'm over qualified?  I don't know.  It's frustrating.

Unlike the OP my direct manager isn't a jerk, but he's toeing the line because he is the most senior member of management left they have either canned the rest or they quit.  He is less than 2 years from retirement,  He won't stick up for us and honestly he has no power anyway.  Corporate changed our job titles a couple months ago.  Reduced our PTO % (I lost a weeks vacation, that hurts when you own TS's) gave us a 2% raise that didn't make up for the lost PTO.  Now they gave the rest of the DC employees a 3% raise and didn't reduce their PTO.  

Gina


----------



## PigsDad

am1 said:


> If I was the companies lawyer I would ask if it was so bad why did you stay?


Ah, yes, blame the victim.  That always goes over well... 

That's right up there with asking a rape victim why she chose to wear "sexy" clothing.  Good grief.

Kurt


----------



## Tia

am1 said:


> I think you are missing the point. Lots of bad managers exist everywhere.  ....  If I was the companies lawyer I would ask if it was so bad why did you stay?



The question should be why this was allowed to occur in plain sight imo, and what's the company's liability . 

Sure hope she's keeping good documentation dates names details. Going to need it.


----------



## am1

PigsDad said:


> Ah, yes, blame the victim.  That always goes over well...
> 
> That's right up there with asking a rape victim why she chose to wear "sexy" clothing.  Good grief.
> 
> Kurt


Completely different.  Insulting to victims of rape.  

If it is bad one should leave.  Money and health insurance should not one enough to keep someone at a job they despise and resent.  Lets remember the ops only issue is not her manager.   Lots of driving, no pay increases, low pay?, no pension, company does not want to allow back to back vacation weeks, short lunches and I am sure a few more have been mentioned.  Even without this manager probably not a good fit. It seems like the company would have been better to part ways when the initial change happened.  Maybe the call to HR froze them on that decision even if at the time they would have been justified.


----------



## b2bailey

Am1,
Would you be willing to share your age with us?


----------



## Egret1986

SandyPGravel said:


> I think you and I work at the same place  Although I'll have 30 years in Aug 15.  We just received our engagement scores, yeah we take a survey on engagement every year.  Shocking, number keeps going down.
> 
> I'm 49 looking for a new job.  Seems to be a double edge sword obviously I'm not a job hopper, but I think the prospective employers might be thinking I'm close to retirement.  I've got 17+ years to go.  I thought I would be here until retirement, just can't picture that anymore. My place of employment used to be the place that was impossible to get a job.  You had to have a connection to get considered.  Now we can't keep anyone and we have a revolving cascade of temp workers.  I work in IT(I work for a distribution center) but my degree is 30 years old and things have changed so much.  My skills are outdated.  I have tried to apply for administrative assistant jobs elsewhere but either my skill set there isn't good enough or I'm over qualified?  I don't know.  It's frustrating.
> 
> Unlike the OP my direct manager isn't a jerk, but he's toeing the line because he is the most senior member of management left they have either canned the rest or they quit.  He is less than 2 years from retirement,  He won't stick up for us and honestly he has no power anyway.  Corporate changed our job titles a couple months ago.  Reduced our PTO % (I lost a weeks vacation, that hurts when you own TS's) gave us a 2% raise that didn't make up for the lost PTO.  Now they gave the rest of the DC employees a 3% raise and didn't reduce their PTO.
> 
> Gina



Actually, it sounds like you work for my husband's employer (think DC, engagement surveys, reduced PTO, etc).  DH's employer used to use my employer for shipping product (more yesterday than today; now it's UPS, which was the reason for the elimination of my husband's dept.).  Our employers are similar in many ways.  He's a manager and I'm a clerk.  We bounce stuff off one another from the perspectives of our positions.  It helps to have an understanding from both sides of the fence.  Both of us are experiencing negative things by our employers that matches what other Tuggers have shared in this thread.

You're right, Gina.  Degrees are old, things have changed and skills are outdated.  Seventeen years to retirement .  The climate, environment, atmosphere; whatever you want to call it; is so different in in companies today.  What were once jobs that were impossible to get are now jobs that our employers are filling with whatever they can scrape up.  Like others posting here, I always had respect for authority.  I would never consider doing and saying things that these relatively new hires say and do.  When I was hired and for many years thereafter, there were standards that we had to adhere to or else.  Not now.  If you mostly show-up and hit the clock, that seems like that's the main requirement.  Everything seems to have changed (from all sides) in the work place. 

I feel for you, Gina.  With 17 years to go, you might have to sharpen your skills, go back to school, etc.  But if you wait too long, then you're dealing with that age discrimination thing.   I'm sure that it's extremely frustrating knowing that even if you take the steps, time and energy to improve yourself that you'll still possibly be working in one of these ever devolving workplace environments.

I have the opportunity to train and possibly take on a higher level position due to a co-worker's retirement this year.  If a made any sort of effort, I would most likely get the position since I work in the department and there's really no other candidates.  The destruction of engaged employees in our facility has made me keenly aware that I do not want the responsibility and requirements of that position.  I'm a clerk.  I do my eight hours, five days a week and I leave until it's time to return to do it all over again.  I no longer have "career" aspirations.   This didn't happen because I'm older and am "just waiting to retire."  This was created over the last few years by the denigration of the workplace.  This seems pervasive.


----------



## am1

b2bailey said:


> Am1,
> Would you be willing to share your age with us?



Mid thirties.  

No interest in working for anyone and no hope for a pension of any kind.  I actually enjoyed every job I have had except for one where I quit after 2 weeks.  That includes 3 summers working property maintenance for what is now well below minimum wage.  I have worked and continue to work very hard so that when the time is right I can retire on my terms  I will teach my sons to not wait to be handed anything and not to expect charity. Also one may be right but of little importance after the bus hit you.  

Instead of fighting I walked away from my business.  But well before that I was planning for the future.


----------



## Panina

am1 said:


> Mid thirties.
> 
> No interest in working for anyone and no hope for a pension of any kind.  I actually enjoyed every job I have had except for one where I quit after 2 weeks.  That includes 3 summers working property maintenance for what is now well below minimum wage.  I have worked and continue to work very hard so that when the time is right I can retire on my terms  I will teach my sons to not wait to be handed anything and not to expect charity. Also one may be right but of little importance after the bus hit you.
> 
> Instead of fighting I walked away from my business.  But well before that I was planning for the future.


Good for you. Your generation has much greater opportunities than mpumilia and my generation has had.   

I am 58 and when I entered the computer science industry there were very few women in it. I had to do double to prove I was just as good  as a man and had to deal with sexist attitudes.  At that time most companies had employees that worked for them their whole working life.  

Today loyalty doesn’t exist on either side, employee or employer.  Your generation  is much more educated, whether college or trade,    and does not expect to be with a company long term. Also your generation is mostly the ones hiring and lean towards hiring younger people. 

I have lived it in two totally different industries and  survived because I was one of the best and I always stood one step ahead but as a women when I was younger and as an older person later in life   I experienced the harassment mpumilia has.

Younger I left my job but my last job I just stood until I retired.  It is extremely hard for an older person to find a job with decent pay and good benefits thus why we just grin and bear it.

Consider yourself fortunate that you established a happy working environment for yourself.  I admire that you did but you really can’t understand what us older folks go through.  In our 50’s and 60’s, even 40’s,  the working environment is not opened armed to the older worker.


----------



## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> Completely different.  Insulting to victims of rape.
> 
> If it is bad one should leave.  Money and health insurance should not one enough to keep someone at a job they despise and resent.  Lets remember the ops only issue is not her manager.   Lots of driving, no pay increases, low pay?, no pension, company does not want to allow back to back vacation weeks, short lunches and I am sure a few more have been mentioned.  Even without this manager probably not a good fit. It seems like the company would have been better to part ways when the initial change happened.  Maybe the call to HR froze them on that decision even if at the time they would have been justified.



LOL! Not a good fit? I have been there for 13 years! All true what you said about this job- but remember I needed a new job at 50 years old and I accepted this job and made it work- like most people do. I never worked for a company like this- said it from day one. Had high hopes for this new company, but obviously it is a lot worse!

This manager wants me out because he wants someone cheaper- that means younger and less experienced as described in his recent ad. He is trying to make me and others quit because he doesn't want to pay unemployment claims. Otherwise there would be no reason he just couldn't have outright fired us when he first took over in an "at will" state. The other thing he is using some of us to get his replacements oriented and then set us up to be fired or hope we quit later on. That is what he did to the first woman he fired and this week with the clinical director (but she called his bluff and only gave 4 days notice when she found out about her replacement). In my case, my replacement has not been hired yet.

The job itself is fine- though can be boring and repetitive- but it does suit my customer service personality and my desire to talk and connect at least a little bit with people. Also- gets me out of the office, which is nice. Yes- the driving gets to me mainly because he (and the managers before him) sends me on errands and uses me as a courier, so trips I strategically plan to be efficient in terms of time and mileage now get all screwed up and take much longer.

I do not resent and despise the job. I do not like the way the company is run. But- yeah- I wish I could just quit and retire with no worries. I feel I have to hang on as long as possible. I realize that is my decision.

I am upset that the clinical director who left today is not going to call HR. I don't understand why not. She is obviously holding something back. A tech that just quit after a month wrote that it was a hostile work environment in her resignation letter via email. He probably deleted it. Too bad she didn't think to forward it to HR or the COO. My hope is the nurse who is leaving tomorrow will call.

Nothing else I can do.


----------



## am1

mpumilia said:


> LOL! Not a good fit? I have been there for 13 years! All true what you said about this job- but remember I needed a new job at 50 years old and I accepted this job and made it work- like most people do. I never worked for a company like this- said it from day one. Had high hopes for this new company, but obviously it is a lot worse!
> 
> This manager wants me out because he wants someone cheaper- that means younger and less experienced as described in his recent ad.




Even you yourself has said they want someone cheaper.  If that is the case not much you can do to compete other then offer to take a reduction.  My guess is the time to justify your current pay with the manager has passed.  In 2018, keeping costs low is very important.  Maybe that has been your bosses mandate from the start and assigned the task for that very reason.


----------



## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> Even you yourself has said they want someone cheaper.  If that is the case not much you can do to compete other then offer to take a reduction.  My guess is the time to justify your current pay with the manager has passed.  In 2018, keeping costs low is very important.  Maybe that has been your bosses mandate from the start and assigned the task for that very reason.



Yes. As I might have stated way back- when I was initially interviewed by the COO back in Oct she asked if I would consider working as a 1099. I told her I didn't know as one consideration I would have in the future would be health insurance.She then said that is something that maybe could be written into a contract. We both agreed it was way too early to even start discussing this as they hadn't even bought the old company yet.

Then when Napoleon took over he kept telling me the new company only hires 1099's for marketing. Later on he said he is not going to hire a 1099 for the "additional" marketing person (aka my replacement). He lies and lies and changes the stories as he goes along...not only a sociopath, but a bipolar, schizo, ADD- diabolical nut. You don't know whether you are coming or going with this guy. Literally.


----------



## Tia

mpumilia said:


> ............A tech that just quit after a month *wrote that it was a hostile work environment in her resignation letter via email.* He probably deleted it. Too bad she didn't think to forward it to HR or the COO. My hope is the nurse who is leaving tomorrow will call.
> 
> Nothing else I can do.



If you saw that and have it print it out, keep it in your file


----------



## PrairieGirl

geist1223 said:


> When I was a Manager/Boss I never corrected a subordinate in front of their subordinates or peers. That is done in private. If they didn't get the message after a private session then they were on their way out.


 Absolutely correct! But it would appear that this did not happen.


----------



## WinniWoman

Tia said:


> If you saw that and have it print it out, keep it in your file



No- of course, I didn't see it. I was just told that is what she did. I am hoping she printed it out to keep a copy- but I don't know. She is already gone.


----------



## Bwolf

Reading about your experiences is not enjoyable.  It is my understanding that a hostile work environment is cause to collect unemployment even if you quit.  You may want to ask the appropriate state agency how to prove a hostile work environment.


----------



## bluehende

Bwolf said:


> Reading about your experiences is not enjoyable.  It is my understanding that a hostile work environment is cause to collect unemployment even if you quit.  You may want to ask the appropriate state agency how to prove a hostile work environment.



This is a good point.  I would imagine you would never get a promise before you leave, but is certainly something to look into. How long is unemployment these days?  In our state it is 6 months  plus whatever the feds may add on.


----------



## Sugarcubesea

Panina said:


> Good for you. Your generation has much greater opportunities than mpumilia and my generation has had.
> 
> I am 58 and when I entered the computer science industry there were very few women in it. I had to do double to prove I was just as good  as a man and had to deal with sexist attitudes.  At that time most companies had employees that worked for them their whole working life.
> 
> Today loyalty doesn’t exist on either side, employee or employer.  Your generation  is much more educated, whether college or trade,    and does not expect to be with a company long term. Also your generation is mostly the ones hiring and lean towards hiring younger people.
> 
> I have lived it in two totally different industries and  survived because I was one of the best and I always stood one step ahead but as a women when I was younger and as an older person later in life   I experienced the harassment mpumilia has.
> 
> Younger I left my job but my last job I just stood until I retired.  It is extremely hard for an older person to find a job with decent pay and good benefits thus why we just grin and bear it.
> 
> Consider yourself fortunate that you established a happy working environment for yourself.  I admire that you did but you really can’t understand what us older folks go through.  In our 50’s and 60’s, even 40’s,  the working environment is not opened armed to the older worker.


I’m in the automotive industry which is not only sexist but also age driven.  Most of the US companies I’ve worked for have laid off employees once they turn 50.  Once I turned 55, I looked for an opportunity at a Japanese automotive company as they value the mature worker.  I’m 57 and need to stay employed till 65.  I feel a bit more confident that I can accomplish this at the company I’m with.  Age and especially woman are discriminated against non stop in my industry and if you need the employment you need to just keep the job and work to your full capacity every day


----------



## WinniWoman

UPDATE: Well after this all began 6 months ago, I finally made the decision to resign from my position. i wrote the resignation letter this evening and hesitantly hit the send button. I am nervous and worried, but I am hoping it is the right decision. The full moon propelled me into action. (I haven't slept). Not to mention some small incidences that occurred once again. And I have been conscious of dragonflies in front of me everywhere I go this past month. Omens.

I have had enough.

My husband and I talked about it and decided that we could cut back and make do and just hope that he keeps his job and health insurance, but that I could not continue to base my decision on what "could" happen instead of what was happening in the present moment.

I have given a months notice which is more than generous, but it works out well for me because I work this week and then Labor Day week I am only working 3 days and then will be on vacation the following week. Then I will have one more full week of work and then I will be done as of 9/21. I was suppose to represent the company at a local festival on 9/23- but- oh well- too bad...(There's a story to that also).

I was going to wait until the end of the year to use up my 6 remaining PTO days and hope for a possibility of a XMAS bonus - we usually get a small one- but who knows with this new company- but I couldn't even handle having to wait that long. I know for sure I could never had made it 3 more years- and I am sure the boss would let me go way before then anyway.

I cannot believe he hasn't fired me yet or hired my replacement, but I know I can't work for him, so I felt I had no other choice. I stuck it out as long as I could.

I know I will be tossing and turning in anticipation of what he is going to say. I took melatonin. It's still a full moon.


----------



## Fredflintstone

mpumilia said:


> UPDATE: Well after this all began 6 months ago, I finally made the decision to resign from my position. i wrote the resignation letter this evening and hesitantly hit the send button. I am nervous and worried, but I am hoping it is the right decision. The full moon propelled me into action. (I haven't slept). And I have been conscious of dragonflies in front of me everywhere I go this past month. Omens.
> 
> My husband and I talked about it and decided that we could cut back and make do and just hope that he keeps his job and health insurance, but that I could not continue to base my decision on what "could" happen instead of what was happening in the present moment.
> 
> I have given a months notice which is more than generous, but it works out well for me because I work this week and then Labor Day week I am only working 3 days and then will be on vacation the following week. Then I will have one more full week of work and then I will be done as of 9/21. I was suppose to represent the company at a local festival on 9/23- but- oh well- too bad...(There's a story to that also).
> 
> I was going to wait until the end of the year to use up my 6 remaining PTO days and hope for a possibility of a XMAS bonus - we usually get a small one- but who knows with this new company- but I couldn't even handle having to wait that long. I know for sure I could never had made it 3 more years- and I am sure the boss would let me go way before by then anyway.
> 
> I cannot believe he hasn't fired me yet or hired my replacement, but I know I can't work for him, so I felt I had no other choice. I stuck it out as long as I could.
> 
> I know I will be tossing and turning in anticipation of what he is going to say. I took melatonin. It's still a full moon.



I think an excellent decision when you factor in the stress you have endured. No amount of money is worth that. Now, you can see the light at the end of the tunnel and will witness your blood pressure dropping and that gut feeling gone.

God has a way to make decisions like this one the right one.  I bet you something will happen to show you that you are in for something better. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Panina

mpumilia said:


> UPDATE: Well after this all began 6 months ago, I finally made the decision to resign from my position. i wrote the resignation letter this evening and hesitantly hit the send button. I am nervous and worried, but I am hoping it is the right decision. The full moon propelled me into action. (I haven't slept). And I have been conscious of dragonflies in front of me everywhere I go this past month. Omens.
> 
> My husband and I talked about it and decided that we could cut back and make do and just hope that he keeps his job and health insurance, but that I could not continue to base my decision on what "could" happen instead of what was happening in the present moment.
> 
> I have given a months notice which is more than generous, but it works out well for me because I work this week and then Labor Day week I am only working 3 days and then will be on vacation the following week. Then I will have one more full week of work and then I will be done as of 9/21. I was suppose to represent the company at a local festival on 9/23- but- oh well- too bad...(There's a story to that also).
> 
> I was going to wait until the end of the year to use up my 6 remaining PTO days and hope for a possibility of a XMAS bonus - we usually get a small one- but who knows with this new company- but I couldn't even handle having to wait that long. I know for sure I could never had made it 3 more years- and I am sure the boss would let me go way before by then anyway.
> 
> I cannot believe he hasn't fired me yet or hired my replacement, but I know I can't work for him, so I felt I had no other choice. I stuck it out as long as I could.
> 
> I know I will be tossing and turning in anticipation of what he is going to say. I took melatonin. It's still a full moon.


My dear tug friend, you did what your gut told you to do for yourself.  Decision made, have no regrets, it is what is best for you.  As we have heard many times when one door closes another one opens.  You now will decide which one to open.  The only thing I would have done differently is slam the door.  You were way too generous giving a months notice.  Hugs and wishing you wonderful new beginnings.


----------



## dsmrp

Good for you!  Just hope they will let you take that last week of vacation.


----------



## PamMo

I am so sorry to hear this, Mpumilia. I've been following this thread since the beginning, but I didn't feel like I had any wisdom to share. I wish you grace and strength to get through this transition. I hope you are pleasantly surprised with your new freedom. All the best. Pam


----------



## WinniWoman

I could have just left, but I decided to be professional and go by the book.

As for the remaining 6 PTO days, the old company policy book- which they are supposedly following- says IF you have remaining ACCRUED days they will pay you HALF IF you give proper notice, equivalent to your yearly PTO time.(in my case, 28 days).

I am taking 6 after Labor Day and will still have 6 remaining. 

So we shall see.

My friends keep asking me what I will do, I told them nothing right now. I need to clear my head- need space. I will find plenty to do just getting organized at home and doing home chores. It will be weird after working my whole life.


----------



## WinniWoman

dsmrp said:


> Good for you!  Just hope they will let you take that last week of vacation.




They can't prevent me from taking my vacation. What are they going to do- fire me?

But I still have 6 days remaining after that and am hoping they will pay them to me but not holding my breath.


----------



## jackio

I’m glad you were able to reach the decision on your terms. Wishing you all the best in the future.


----------



## VacationForever

You have made up your mind and taken the step and you know it is the right thing to do for yourself.  Life is too short to be stressed over bad boss and work.  Good for you!  When all this is left behind, I am sure you will figure out what to do next.  Regardless, you should file for unemployment and put down what you believe is the appropriate reason.  

All the best!


----------



## Fredflintstone

mpumilia said:


> I could have just left, but I decided to be professional and go by the book.
> 
> As for the remaining 6 PTO days, the old company policy book- which they are supposedly following- says IF you have remaining ACCRUED days they will pay you HALF IF you give proper notice, equivalent to your yearly PTO time.(in my case, 28 days).
> 
> I am taking 6 after Labor Day and will still have 6 remaining.
> 
> So we shall see.
> 
> My friends keep asking me what I will do, I told them nothing right now. I need to clear my head- need space. I will find plenty to do just getting organized at home and doing home chores. It will be weird after working my whole life.



Just think of it this way.


https://media1.tenor.com/images/073e58773677ac0837a52fe7c695cbe7/tenor.gif?itemid=5665107




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## am1

I am happy for you.


----------



## Fredflintstone

mpumilia said:


> I could have just left, but I decided to be professional and go by the book.
> 
> As for the remaining 6 PTO days, the old company policy book- which they are supposedly following- says IF you have remaining ACCRUED days they will pay you HALF IF you give proper notice, equivalent to your yearly PTO time.(in my case, 28 days).
> 
> I am taking 6 after Labor Day and will still have 6 remaining.
> 
> So we shall see.
> 
> My friends keep asking me what I will do, I told them nothing right now. I need to clear my head- need space. I will find plenty to do just getting organized at home and doing home chores. It will be weird after working my whole life.



You know I remember when I quit my manager government job at 51 and everyone thought I was crazy. 4 k net a month, security, etc but plenty of politics.

Anyway my business nets 14 k a month and I love it at 54!

You remind me of so many stories of older people sucking up the garbage because they are afraid that’s all for them. Then, things come together better than ever.

When I was in Kehei and used to smoke, I would sit and smoke with the locales. I was amazed the number of people who threw everything away on the mainland and now survive quite well on their ebay, Uber and other online businesses. THEY ALL SAID IT WAS THE BEST THING EVER! After the dust settles you will know a new direction. Start exploring options. Opportunities are everywhere especially in today’s internet world. 




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## WalnutBaron

I, too, have been following this thread through the past several months and find myself relieved for you. I'm sure this was a very difficult decision, but I also have no doubt it's the right one. My sense is that you're pretty bruised from this whole experience, and--given that you have no immediate plans for what comes next--right now your heart and soul need rest and peace. I'm guessing you'll be getting temporarily better treatment from your boss as well, because your resignation is what he has been wanting all along. Give yourself a time for reflection and re-direction (maybe the rest of the year?). Slow down, take long walks, let the pressure and anxiety of this job seep out of your pores and breathe in the fresh air of contentment.

Think of the things you enjoy, and pursue them--whether there is financial reward or not. Because you like interacting with people, you'll be great at networking. So reach out to all those you've worked with before as well as your friends, townspeople, and the owners of small, independent businesses in the area. While your age may seem like a disadvantage, believe it or not, some employers actually prefer folks our age because we're stable, more settled in our personal lives, and less likely to create negative disruption in the workplace. Be willing to take part-time work if it's offered, because if you do it well, there's often a decent chance the part-time work will expand to an offer of full-time work. And don't be afraid of volunteer work, which can also often serve as a door-opener to a paying position down the road.

I can certainly understand your trepidation about pushing that send button. But the economy is booming right now, and so I have a feeling that much better and brighter days are ahead for you.


----------



## DaveNV

Mary Ann, I know you didn't make this decision lightly, and I am proud of you.  I know it wasn't easy.  You did the right thing by taking the high road - even if the boss is a jackass, you're not.  As author C.S. Lewis once said, "Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching." 

My suggestion is to go into your HR office tomorrow with a copy of your resignation letter, and ask them for a written accounting of the remainder of your PTO days, what you will be paid for, ask whether you'll be paid to-date on your last day, or will you receive a normal last paycheck on the payday after that, and such.  Ask about Cobra insurance (or whatever may be available) after you leave.  Get as much in writing as possible, and use that as basis for any challenges the boss comes up with.  "Sorry, Boss, but HR says it'll be this way..."

Then smile and go about your last workdays knowing you'll soon be on to a better life.  You've earned the freedom from the anxiety. As cliche as it sounds, "Don't worry, be happy."  

Dave


----------



## MabelP

Well said, Dave. Great advice.

Mary Ann, I'm wishing you all the best. I too have followed your thread. Over this time, I have sent many positive thoughts your way. I am so happy you have come to a decision. Just think, you will be free in a month. Take some time to heal and enjoy life. Mabel


----------



## heathpack

Aw so stressful.  Take some time to recoup before making too many plans.  

Haha you’ll have so much time to post on tug now!


----------



## clifffaith

*I *feel a sense of relief for you, I can only imagine how you feel. Take a deep breath as you walk in the door tomorrow, head held high, smile on your face. You go girl!


----------



## WinniWoman

VacationForever said:


> You have made up your mind and taken the step and you know it is the right thing to do for yourself.  Life is too short to be stressed over bad boss and work.  Good for you!  When all this is left behind, I am sure you will figure out what to do next.  Regardless, you should file for unemployment and put down what you believe is the appropriate reason.
> 
> All the best!




I do not think you can file for unemployment if you resign from your job.


----------



## WinniWoman

WalnutBaron said:


> I, too, have been following this thread through the past several months and find myself relieved for you. I'm sure this was a very difficult decision, but I also have no doubt it's the right one. My sense is that you're pretty bruised from this whole experience, and--given that you have no immediate plans for what comes next--right now your heart and soul need rest and peace. I'm guessing you'll be getting temporarily better treatment from your boss as well, because your resignation is what he has been wanting all along. Give yourself a time for reflection and re-direction (maybe the rest of the year?). Slow down, take long walks, let the pressure and anxiety of this job seep out of your pores and breathe in the fresh air of contentment.
> 
> Think of the things you enjoy, and pursue them--whether there is financial reward or not. Because you like interacting with people, you'll be great at networking. So reach out to all those you've worked with before as well as your friends, townspeople, and the owners of small, independent businesses in the area. While your age may seem like a disadvantage, believe it or not, some employers actually prefer folks our age because we're stable, more settled in our personal lives, and less likely to create negative disruption in the workplace. Be willing to take part-time work if it's offered, because if you do it well, there's often a decent chance the part-time work will expand to an offer of full-time work. And don't be afraid of volunteer work, which can also often serve as a door-opener to a paying position down the road.
> 
> I can certainly understand your trepidation about pushing that send button. But the economy is booming right now, and so I have a feeling that much better and brighter days are ahead for you.




I absolutely love the way you write! Thanks so much. I am going to take the rest of the year to just "be" and then go from there- or not! LOL!


----------



## WinniWoman

DaveNW said:


> Mary Ann, I know you didn't make this decision lightly, and I am proud of you.  I know it wasn't easy.  You did the right thing by taking the high road - even if the boss is a jackass, you're not.  As author C.S. Lewis once said, "Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching."
> 
> My suggestion is to go into your HR office tomorrow with a copy of your resignation letter, and ask them for a written accounting of the remainder of your PTO days, what you will be paid for, ask whether you'll be paid to-date on your last day, or will you receive a normal last paycheck on the payday after that, and such.  Ask about Cobra insurance (or whatever may be available) after you leave.  Get as much in writing as possible, and use that as basis for any challenges the boss comes up with.  "Sorry, Boss, but HR says it'll be this way..."
> 
> Then smile and go about your last workdays knowing you'll soon be on to a better life.  You've earned the freedom from the anxiety. As cliche as it sounds, "Don't worry, be happy."
> 
> Dave




Thanks, Dave!

This company does not have a real HR. Just a project manager who is in another state and doubles as an HR manager. They also use an outside payroll company (Extensis- like a PAYCHEX) which has some functions that an HR dept would have, but mostly useless and not local.

So I sent the resignation letter via email last evening to my boss and copied the COO. In the letter I did ask to be informed of how to transfer my 401k, and about the remaining PTO time, and that I expected to be reimbursed for my last mileage usage, etc. I don't have insurance with them- it is with my husband's employer.

I also asked for the boss to let me know how I can help during the transition. Kept it professional and short and sweet. 

Today should be interesting- or maybe it won't. But the deed is done!


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## missyrcrews

Congratulations!!!  I know you'll feel so much better, just being out of there.

Once you get your feet under you, and get sick of house-cleaning (that part would take me about 3 hours to be tired of!), remember that p/t work can be okay, too.  Things to think about...if you don't mind kids, schools are always looking for substitute teachers.  Pay isn't great, but you can pick when you work.  (NOT during your timeshare weeks!) Or consider a grocery store/retail place, too.  Some will be hiring soon for the holidays, and you can say right up front when you need to be away.  Again, not great pay, but good flexibility...and sometimes, there's a discount!  Or maybe a hotel front desk...you've taken care of corporate customers, and you know what YOU expect from the hospitality industry.  Pretty much everywhere here in Maine is screaming for help. 

Enjoy your time at home, to relax and reflect.  The end is in sight!!!!


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## pedro47

I am wishing you only the best in your next career.  Do not look back; now look forward; and become the Master of your Ship.

Yes! It is now time to heal your body, soul & mind.  It is a very slow process. Good Luck.


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## Sugarcubesea

I'm so happy for you and I know it had to be a very difficult decision to make.  Working in a toxic environment takes a toll on your body and soul and now you can move forward and find something that will make you feel energized and appreciated.  I have been following this thread as I have been in this situation in the past and its a horrible spot to be in...

Thank you for bravely sharing your story...I wish you every happiness


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## bluehende

mpumilia said:


> UPDATE: Well after this all began 6 months ago, I finally made the decision to resign from my position. i wrote the resignation letter this evening and hesitantly hit the send button. I am nervous and worried, but I am hoping it is the right decision. The full moon propelled me into action. (I haven't slept). Not to mention some small incidences that occurred once again. And I have been conscious of dragonflies in front of me everywhere I go this past month. Omens.
> 
> I have had enough.
> 
> My husband and I talked about it and decided that we could cut back and make do and just hope that he keeps his job and health insurance, but that I could not continue to base my decision on what "could" happen instead of what was happening in the present moment.
> 
> I have given a months notice which is more than generous, but it works out well for me because I work this week and then Labor Day week I am only working 3 days and then will be on vacation the following week. Then I will have one more full week of work and then I will be done as of 9/21. I was suppose to represent the company at a local festival on 9/23- but- oh well- too bad...(There's a story to that also).
> 
> I was going to wait until the end of the year to use up my 6 remaining PTO days and hope for a possibility of a XMAS bonus - we usually get a small one- but who knows with this new company- but I couldn't even handle having to wait that long. I know for sure I could never had made it 3 more years- and I am sure the boss would let me go way before then anyway.
> 
> I cannot believe he hasn't fired me yet or hired my replacement, but I know I can't work for him, so I felt I had no other choice. I stuck it out as long as I could.
> 
> I know I will be tossing and turning in anticipation of what he is going to say. I took melatonin. It's still a full moon.



This is certainly the best decision for you.  The freedom you will feel when finally done will more than make up for any loss.


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## bluehende

mpumilia said:


> I do not think you can file for unemployment if you resign from your job.



State laws vary, but in DE resigning under your circumstances would not preclude you from collecting unemployment.  It usually has to do with time working and enough documentation to show you were forced to resign.  It may be a long shot but you will now have plenty of time to look into it, although I seem busier now that I am retired.  My advice would be to take a bit of time and decide what you really want to do instead of what you feel you need to do.  A lot of time we realize the pressures we feel are self imposed.


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## Passepartout

Good Luck, Mary Ann. I have no advice for smoothing out life's bumps in the road, only support and best wishes. I left my job of over 23 years under similar circumstances 9+ years ago and have not drawn a paycheck since. Now that you've made the decision, and put it behind you, live every day to it's fullest.

Jim


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## geist1223

Congrats and best wishes. Caused me to remember when Patti quit. We worked for the same company but in different Divisions. I knew Patti had been unhappy for several years and it was causing sleep problems. Back in 2007 (11 years ago but feels more recent) we both took FMLA Leave because my Mother had a series of strokes leading to Dementia. I took 4 weeks and Patti took 8 weeks. During the middle of her time off (with her sleeping better and just feeling better) she looked at me as we were going to bed and asked "Do I have to go back?" I said no. She would need to find another job but she did not have to go back. The next night she went in after working hours, typed up her letter of resignation, gathered her personal belongings, send an email to 30 friends/associates, and left the resignation letter with her security card on her boss's chair. Her last day of employment was her last day of approved FMLA. She had her retirement but had to wait 18 months to to draw it. She was never unemployed for than a couple days. A major construction company called her a couple days after her last official day of employment and she went to work for them as in house workers compensation specialist. She discovered she was tired of working for large companies. Worked for a small workers compensation company and finally settled in to working at a Plant Nursery. She stayed with that until I retired.

Patti's life and mine were so better after she quit. Money wise we would have been better off if she had stayed until I retired. But her life would have been hell.


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## VacationForever

mpumilia said:


> I do not think you can file for unemployment if you resign from your job.


Yes you can.  I was an employer for more than 8 years and employees do that all the time.  Some get it and some don't.  It depends on the reason.  In California it is actually quite easy for employees to be granted unemployment for even something as simple as "the job changed and it is not the same job that I was assigned previously and as such I quit."  It depends on the EDD person reviewing it.  Both sides can appeal the decision.  It is absolutely worth it for you to file for unemployment.  California is very employee friendly and it is likely so for NY as well.

You have to put your reason as to what the company had done to make you unable to continue to work there anymore.


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## Egret1986

I am happy to hear the news of your decision.  It's been a long time coming.  It wasn't made in haste.  Your well-being has taken a major hit.  New life opportunities await you.  Give yourself time to heal.  As with your decision to submit your resignation letter, don't make any decisions in haste.  You've been through a lot.  I hope your remaining days at your job will pass by quickly.  Best wishes for a great vacation and a shiny new future, Mary Ann!


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## Luanne

Nothing else to add, just {{{{{hugs}}}}}.


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## pedro47

The OP does have the right to file for Unemployment Insurance (UIS). To the OP if you are denied the first time for UIS; The appeal process will be given to you or by email to you detailing how to file an appeal.  please file an appeal to an UIS Hearing Officer; if you are denied again. You can file an appeal to an UIS Investigator who is usually an UIS lawyer (that works in a define area of the state). That person will make the final decision on your case.
Good Luck.  Please have your employer handbook with you and all documentation to presence to the UIS Investigator as evidence to prove your case.
Pray that your employer do not participate in the process. You will win hand down.


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## Tia

If I were you I'd definitely apply for unemployment, based on stress from hostile work environment shown in notes/documents you have been keeping


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## Chrispee

Congratulations on your decision!  I’m tasked with hiring a large number of people at my workplace, and on a few occasions I have approached people I had crossed paths with after finding out they were leaving their current job.

I guess I’m suggesting that there’s no harm in doing a farewell tour of your clients as you never know what opportunities are quietly out there!  Quite often (in my experience) people have a specific part-time role they’d like to fill with the right person, and another employer may have already considered you an interesting option if you were only available.


----------



## WinniWoman

pedro47 said:


> The OP does have the right to file for Unemployment Insurance (UIS). To the OP if you are denied the first time for UIS; The appeal process will be given you or email to you detailing how to file an appeal.  please file an appeal to an UIS Hearing Officer; if you are denied again. You can file an appeal to an UIS Investigator who is usually an UIS lawyer (that works in a define area of the state). That person will make the final decision on your case.
> Good Luck.  Please have your employer handbook with you and all documentation to presence to the UIS Investigator as evidence to prove your case.
> Pray that your employer do not participate in the process. You will win hand down.




In the past, the old company always fought the unemployment claims so I have to assume this director- who worked for the old company- would do the same.


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## VacationForever

mpumilia said:


> In the past, the old company always fought the unemployment claims so I have to assume this director- who worked for the old company- would do the same.


Most employers would fight it as it affects their unemployment tax which is a percentage of payroll up to $x per employee, unless the employers do it out of goodwill or feel that the employer is clearly in the wrong.

When you apply, be factual rather than emotional in what the company had done to make you unable to continue to work there.


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## vacationhopeful

Almost ALL employers fight claims ... else after 26 or 39 weeks repeatedly, the company would be training a new workforce. Or hire new workers for every summer. 

Another FUN (or STUPID) trick ... "hurt" your back and stay home resting (on sick leave) as YOU  'tryout' that NEW job or til you pass the new employer's 30-90 trial employment period. MY employer years ago .. had a private investigator follow a co-worker .. photos, etc. My employer (I got dragged into the reveal party) knew I had NO respect for this guy for years before hand. I got told for 3 days .. to travel around my department and GOSSIP on the where and WHY, Robert was GONE. His new employer got the info (who fired him), coworkers at my older employer learned the dirt, he got NO unemployment due to fraud and had to repay the illegally claimed sick pay payments (or criminal charges would be filed).

Been almost 35 years since I was assigned that task ... best job assignment ever.


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## WinniWoman

VacationForever said:


> Most employers would fight it as it affects their unemployment tax which is a percentage of payroll up to $x per employee, unless the employers do it out of goodwill or feel that the employer is clearly in the wrong.
> 
> When you apply, be factual rather than emotional in what the company had done to make you unable to contimue to work there.



I am not sure I will even apply- wasn't planning in it,. I suppose I could call the local office and ask questions if I decide to.


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## VacationForever

I can tell you that we had not fought some claims out of goodwill when the termination was mutual, like the employee not being a good fit and it was a wrong hire in the first place.


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## VacationForever

mpumilia said:


> I am not sure I will even apply- wasn't planning in it,. I suppose I could call the local office and ask questions if I decide to.


Being paid unemployment at a portion of your salary for 6 months is nice.  It gives you some $ while you clear your head as to whether you want to work again.


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## taffy19

Chrispee said:


> Congratulations on your decision!  I’m tasked with hiring a large number of people at my workplace, and on a few occasions I have approached people I had crossed paths with after finding out they were leaving their current job.
> 
> I guess I’m suggesting that there’s no harm in doing a farewell tour of your clients as you never know what opportunities are quietly out there!  Quite often (in my experience) people have a specific part-time role they’d like to fill with the right person, and another employer may have already considered you an interesting option if you were only available.


Since mpumilia had a good client relationship outside the office, your suggestion sounds like a good idea as they may know a company that is looking for a person in her field.

I know several ladies who volunteered and ended up being hired when one of the full time employees left and they love what they do.

To mpumilia,  I am so glad that you left that company rather than having them let you go and costing you your health eventually.


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## silentg

I quit a job after 2 years of working for a demanding boss. My position was moved from days to evenings, which at the time was impossible for me to do. When I talked to the unemployment office they said since I was hired for days and moved to evenings without much notice. I was entitled to unemployment benefits.
I returned to the same place of employment for 4 more years after a two year break. Lots of issues and stress, not the same boss but the same sort of BS. I went to HR and was told I could retire in 15 months. I took a position in another department and enjoyed working there for a year. I held on the last 3 months until I could retire. My boss was not pleased, she said I should have taken a leave of absence, but I knew I wasn’t going back. 
Lots of office politics and egos, I don’t like being involved in that stuff. Others found me too agreeable and I tried to get along with others who were impossible. I just worked and stayed out of BS as much as possible.
My husband is still working, But when I retired I didn’t look back.
Hope you feel good about leaving, you will find something you enjoy, I’m sure.
Silentg


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## dsmrp

silentg said:


> I quit a job after 2 years of working for a demanding boss. My position was moved from days to evenings, which at the time was impossible for me to do. When I talked to the unemployment office they said since I was hired for days and moved to evenings without much notice. I was entitled to unemployment benefits.
> I returned to the same place of employment for 4 more years after a two year break. Lots of issues and stress, not the same boss but the same sort of BS. I went to HR and was told I could retire in 15 months. I took a position in another department and enjoyed working there for a year. I held on the last 3 months until I could retire. My boss was not pleased, she said I should have taken a leave of absence, but I knew I wasn’t going back.
> Lots of office politics and egos, I don’t like being involved in that stuff. Others found me too agreeable and I tried to get along with others who were impossible. I just worked and stayed out of BS as much as possible.
> My husband is still working, But when I retired I didn’t look back.
> Hope you feel good about leaving, you will find something you enjoy, I’m sure.
> Silentg



I have a friend who had worked in HR for years, and knew the ropes.  She was at her last employer for 3 years with similar amounts of office politics, except working with senior management.
She was extremely careful and had all her ducks in a row, so she would get her yearly bonus before retiring 
Her bosses were not pleased. She was the only one who could give a scheduled training session a few weeks after her planned last day, so to leave on amicable terms, she got semi-wrangled into teaching this course after her official last day.  Her plane fare etc were paid, but all the prep work she had put in for the training was not.

Marianne, in light of my friend's experience, perhaps your company might bargain with you for your 6 PTO days, to represent the company at the 9/23 local festival you mentioned ???


----------



## pedro47

The Unemployment Ins office will not answer question over the phone. Do not waste your time.
Please do not fake a back injury. Reason why not. You must be physical able to walk to draw unemployment ins.

However, if you were injury on the job; you could be eligible for worker compensation.

Does your employer participate in the Family Medical Leave Plan?
Please read about this FMLP.


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## VacationForever

pedro47 said:


> The Unemployment Ins office will not answer question over the phone. Do not waste your time.
> Please do not fake a back injury. Reason why not. You must be physical able to walk to draw unemployment ins.
> 
> However, if you were injury on the job; you could be eligible for worker compensation.
> 
> Does your employer participate in the Family Medical Leave Plan?
> Please read about this FMLP.


It depends on the state.  California unemployment office actually encourages  former employees to apply for unemployment when called, even for reasons that are very grey.  I do believe Mary Ann has a case here.  Her life has been made a misery but she needs to be able to document examples of how it has become unbearable to remain working at the company.  Hostile work place environment is a generic term for something like this.  Unless she can prove age discrimination, that reason is a slippery slope and personally I won't go there. 

She is not talking about workers compensation or work injury here.


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## am1

Once again would be better for companies to hold back part of the salary and then when the worker leave they get paid out.  This would be for everyone.  Better then that would be not to offer unemployment at all but a different debate.  I have only paid in but never have collected.  

These two take out the uncertainty and any chance of abuse.


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## bogey21

Marianne, you thought it through; agonized over it; and made an informed decision.  Good for you and good luck...

George


----------



## WinniWoman

VacationForever said:


> Being paid unemployment at a portion of your salary for 6 months is nice.  It gives you some $ while you clear your head as to whether you want to work again.



I might apply just to see, but I am sure they will reject it and then would have to do an appeal. I suppose I could use the copy of the add for my job that was placed on Indeed.com to show they were looking to replace me- but they could tell unemployment what they told me- that they were going to hire an Additional person- which is a lie- but how can you prove that? So I would be fighting for unemployment and my head would not be clearing.


----------



## WinniWoman

I had a lousy 6 PTO days left (after my upcoming vacation) and he is not going to pay me them. After 13 years I leave with nothing- not even 6 days PTO. SMH....What a creep.

I hadn't even heard from Napoleon regarding the letter by noon, so I ended up texting him just to ask if he saw it, and he texted back that he did and he wanted to talk to me at some point. (yeah-sure). Then he sent a formal email to me acknowledging (cc'd to the COO) my resignation ("thank you for your service all these years") and told me I have to deal with Paychex myself for the 401 k transfer and about the PTO days.

Also asking for assistance in introducing the new person they have to hire to the doctor clients and some other things.

Well- he better hurry up and hire someone from those "hundreds" of resumes he claims he got. And- gee- shouldn't he be hiring 2 people since that is what they claimed they needed? LOL!

I did tell one of the doctors offices- the staff I am close to there- about everything. They told me they are so sorry the previous director was let go because he was great. Sigh... 

Meanwhile, still more BS even today from him - but this time it just confirmed once again that I have to leave and I didn't stress it. After all, I don't have to care anymore.


----------



## Patri

You are fussing too much about unemployment. You can't collect what you don't apply for. If they say no, you have lost nothing. 
Congrats on your decision to get away from the weasels. Take your last month day by day. You will get renewed energy to face whatever comes after that.


----------



## WinniWoman

VacationForever said:


> I can tell you that we had not fought some claims out of goodwill when the termination was mutual, like the employee not being a good fit and it was a wrong hire in the first place.




I cannot imagine this company doing it but I might try it. They never heard of good will at this place.


----------



## WinniWoman

Patri said:


> You are fussing too much about unemployment. You can't collect what you don't apply for. If they say no, you have lost nothing.
> Congrats on your decision to get away from the weasels. Take your last month day by day. You will get renewed energy to face whatever comes after that.




I am not fussing about it. Just responding to others posts. I wasn't going to even apply for it since I am resigning, but now maybe I just might try for the heck of it. Can't hurt.


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## WinniWoman

Oh and did I mention I was shocked but he attached an EXIT INTERVIEW FORM to his email acknowledging my resignation! I was shocked! I can't wait to fill it in! LOL!


----------



## elaine

DH is also dealing with crazy corp culture after a buyout. It's really sad to see what he built going downhill.
I agree with PP, put out some feelers at your various Dr. offices, suppliers, etc. I wouldn't get into the details of how awful the place was--more of just retired early, but would love PT work--could fill in for vacationing employees/mat leave, etc.  That could be very valuable to someone. You never know. I would rather hire a known dependable personable person vs. a temp hire. Good luk! Elaine


----------



## WinniWoman

dsmrp said:


> I have a friend who had worked in HR for years, and knew the ropes.  She was at her last employer for 3 years with similar amounts of office politics, except working with senior management.
> She was extremely careful and had all her ducks in a row, so she would get her yearly bonus before retiring
> Her bosses were not pleased. She was the only one who could give a scheduled training session a few weeks after her planned last day, so to leave on amicable terms, she got semi-wrangled into teaching this course after her official last day.  Her plane fare etc were paid, but all the prep work she had put in for the training was not.
> 
> Marianne, in light of my friend's experience, perhaps your company might bargain with you for your 6 PTO days, to represent the company at the 9/23 local festival you mentioned ???




After 9/21 I want nothing to do with this place. I gave them a month's notice and that's all they are getting. They can keep the crappy 6 PTO days;


----------



## Panina

mpumilia said:


> Oh and did I mention I was shocked but he attached an EXIT INTERVIEW FORM to his email acknowledging my resignation! I was shocked! I can't wait to fill it in! LOL!


Make sure you put the harassment issues and you could not take it any more as the reason for leaving on the exit interview form. Take copies for unemployment.


----------



## WinniWoman

elaine said:


> DH is also dealing with crazy corp culture after a buyout. It's really sad to see what he built going downhill.
> I agree with PP, put out some feelers at your various Dr. offices, suppliers, etc. I wouldn't get into the details of how awful the place was--more of just retired early, but would love PT work--could fill in for vacationing employees/mat leave, etc.  That could be very valuable to someone. You never know. I would rather hire a known dependable personable person vs. a temp hire. Good luk! Elaine




I am not telling people I am retiring or what I am doing. When/if they ask, I tell them I am doing nothing for awhile. You should see their faces. LOL!


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## billymach4

Wishing you well on your decision. 

Question? Not sure if you care at this point?

Is it possible that anyone at your place of employment has read your posts here on TUG?
This is a public forum and anyone on the net can stop in and read.


----------



## Jan M.

You have the evidence of other employees leaving due to his treatment. Have any of them filed for unemployment? If so that paves the way for you. I would pursue it. You deserve to get it. Some employers figure PTO time as accrued by the hours/weeks worked. So if you don't finish out the year you might not have worked enough to get all of those days yet. If you have already accrued some or all of those 6 PTO days then you should be paid for them and it shouldn't be up to him. Make him document that. It is one more proof of harassment. Since you only have one week left to work after you return from vacation I would refuse to train the new person. How ethical is it for a company to harass and employee, threaten their job and then require that person to train the person who will replace them? For your own self respect don't let yourself be walked on anymore than you already have been. Let the A.H. do it himself. Really what kind of idiot would want an employee who has been forced out, out in the field potentially telling all the clients how they were treated? I would hope there is someone in the company more competent than he is to see this. I would suggest sitting in the office, tying up any loose ends and doing as little as possible that last week because do you think you can trust him and the company to make sure you get paid for your mileage that last week? You could even call in sick the first couple of days back from vacation if you think you will get screwed out of the PTO time you should be paid for. What can he do about any of those things, fire you? Then you can collect!


----------



## Panina

billymach4 said:


> Wishing you well on your decision.
> 
> Question? Not sure if you care at this point?
> 
> Is it possible that anyone at your place of employment has read your posts here on TUG?
> This is a public forum and anyone on the net can stop in and read.


What difference does it make if they did?  Mary Ann this 20 page thread shows in real time the anguish you felt as it was happening. May be more proof for unemployment.


----------



## billymach4

My point is that Mary Ann is exposing her moves and personal thoughts in a public forum anyone can read. Not recommended for a personal job related HR issue.

Again no disrespect intended here. Just curious.

Think about it. Does your boss or HR manager post their issues in a public forum?


----------



## am1

billymach4 said:


> My point is that Mary Ann is exposing her moves and personal thoughts in a public forum anyone can read. Not recommended for a personal job related HR issue.
> 
> Again no disrespect intended here. Just curious.
> 
> Think about it. Does your boss or HR manager post their issues in a public forum?



I suggested this on one of the first pages.


----------



## Tia

mpumilia said:


> I had a lousy 6 PTO days left (after my upcoming vacation) and he is not going to pay me them. After 13 years I leave with nothing- not even 6 days PTO. SMH....What a creep.
> .




Maybe you'll be ill? and take those PTO days...........................................


----------



## WinniWoman

Tia said:


> Maybe you'll be ill? and take those PTO days...........................................




What they would do then is take the time out of my final paycheck- there is no way to win this one. To them- the rest of the PTO days have not been "accrued" yet.

So, even though lets say you are an employee who takes them now for vacation- you would be paid. But then you quit in October-they would take them back out of your final paycheck.


----------



## WinniWoman

billymach4 said:


> Wishing you well on your decision.
> 
> Question? Not sure if you care at this point?
> 
> Is it possible that anyone at your place of employment has read your posts here on TUG?
> This is a public forum and anyone on the net can stop in and read.




Who cares? What are they going to do? Fire me? It's not like I need them for anything. I am leaving with nothing. And I don't need a stinkin' references either.


----------



## Bwolf

Panina said:


> Make sure you put the harassment issues and you could not take it any more as the reason for leaving on the exit interview form. Take copies for unemployment.


 Somehow I missed this announcement, Mary Ann.  Good luck. Panina offers good advice.  Do file for unemployment.  Do appeal if initially rejected.  You have a very good chance.  Also, those advising that you take a farewell tour of clients is very sound advice.  That's the kind of networking that may open opportunities.  Take a bunch of business cards to hand out.  Write your personal cell number on them if necessary. Give your clients a way to contact you.


----------



## VacationForever

mpumilia said:


> What they would do then is take the time out of my final paycheck- there is no way to win this one. To them- the rest of the PTO days have not been "accrued" yet.
> 
> So, even though lets say you are an employee who takes them now for vacation- you would be paid. But then you quit in October-they would take them back out of your final paycheck.


If you have not accrued the 6 PTO then it is correct that you won't be paid for them and you are not losing anything there.  PTOs are accrued each month.


----------



## SmithOp

If you want to transfer your 401K, have your new financial services firm do it for you as a direct rollover to IRA.  Do not cash out the 401k yourself, an indirect rollover can get messy with tax liabilities if you don’t follow the rules exactly.

We have our retirement saving with Fidelity, it was simple to go into their office to rollover my wife’s 401k from her ex employer.  They handle all the details.  They are more than happy to do it, its new funds coming to them.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## artringwald

SmithOp said:


> If you want to transfer your 401K, have your new financial services firm do it for you as a direct rollover to IRA.  Do not cash out the 401k yourself, an indirect rollover can get messy with tax liabilities if you don’t follow the rules exactly.
> 
> We have our retirement saving with Fidelity, it was simple to go into their office to rollover my wife’s 401k from her ex employer.  They handle all the details.  They are more than happy to do it, its new funds coming to them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Good advice! When I retired, I transferred my 401K to Vanguard and they did most of the work for me.


----------



## Panina

SmithOp said:


> If you want to transfer your 401K, have your new financial services firm do it for you as a direct rollover to IRA.  Do not cash out the 401k yourself, an indirect rollover can get messy with tax liabilities if you don’t follow the rules exactly.
> 
> We have our retirement saving with Fidelity, it was simple to go into their office to rollover my wife’s 401k from her ex employer.  They handle all the details.  They are more than happy to do it, its new funds coming to them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Also easy with Merril Lynch who have offices in Bank of America branches.


----------



## pedro47

mpumilia said:


> Oh and did I mention I was shocked but he attached an EXIT INTERVIEW FORM to his email acknowledging my resignation! I was shocked! I can't wait to fill it in! LOL!



Exit Interview Forms are standard operation across the industry (just be careful what you write )


----------



## WinniWoman

pedro47 said:


> Exit Interview Forms are standard operation across the industry (just be careful what you write )



Lots of people who left here over the years never got one. And let me tell you- LOTS of people have left during the time I have been here.


----------



## WinniWoman

SmithOp said:


> If you want to transfer your 401K, have your new financial services firm do it for you as a direct rollover to IRA.  Do not cash out the 401k yourself, an indirect rollover can get messy with tax liabilities if you don’t follow the rules exactly.
> 
> We have our retirement saving with Fidelity, it was simple to go into their office to rollover my wife’s 401k from her ex employer.  They handle all the details.  They are more than happy to do it, its new funds coming to them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro




Yes. Thanks. This I know. I have done this in the past with a couple of other jobs I had.


----------



## WinniWoman

VacationForever said:


> If you have not accrued the 6 PTO then it is correct that you won't be paid for them and you are not losing anything there.  PTOs are accrued each month.




Right. But you would think after 13 years they would let me leave with something. That was my point.

Funny how these companies tell you not to wait until the end of the year to take your PTO time. This guy sent out a memo in the spring telling people not to wait until the end of the year and to start taking time off.

 So all of a sudden- it is accrued then before the end of the year? How can you take off time that has not been accrued?

Yet if you leave before the end of the year- they take it back... SMH....


----------



## PigsDad

mpumilia said:


> Right. But you would think after 13 years they would let me leave with something. That was my point.
> 
> Funny how these companies tell you not to wait until the end of the year to take your PTO time. This guy sent out a memo in the spring telling people not to wait until the end of the year and to start taking time off.
> 
> So all of a sudden- it is accrued then before the end of the year? How can you take off time that has not been accrued?
> 
> Yet if you leave before the end of the year- they take it back... SMH....


I think you will find that is the way a good percentage of companies handle their PTO.  On Jan 1 each year, we get access to 100% of our yearly PTO, but only accrue 1/24th of each each pay period (twice/month).  For example, I could take all of January off if I wanted, but I would have a negative accrual balance for most of the year.  We have also gotten the "encouragement" at times to use our PTO early in the year so the liability can be written off and make their first half financials look better.  

If we leave the company and there is a negative accrual balance, that would be taken out of our last paycheck.  In fact, in many states companies are not required to pay accrued PTO when you leave.  I wouldn't expect any special treatment just because I happened to have 29 years with the company -- everyone is treated equally. 

Kurt


----------



## DaveNV

My company pays a certain amount of PTO hours each pay period. You can’t take more than you’ve accrued. If you leave the company, accrued PTO hours are paid out. Unearned PTO hours don’t count, because they haven’t been earned yet.

Dave


----------



## Glynda

Just checking in from our cruise and seeing this. Given that you chose your emotional and physical well being above the monetary, I am happy that you will have a well deserved break from the poor management decisions and bad behavior of this company’s representative/s. I too would hope that you could receive unemployment. It could be well worth fighting for or too stressful. Go with your gut. Wishing you the best!


----------



## SandyPGravel

DaveNW said:


> My company pays a certain amount of PTO hours each pay period. You can’t take more than you’ve accrued. If you leave the company, accrued PTO hours are paid out. Unearned PTO hours don’t count, because they haven’t been earned yet.
> 
> Dave



That's the way it is where I work too.  In fact we have to have enough PTO available two weeks prior to time off or they make us cancel scheduled time off.  Even though you will earn  PTO during those two weeks and while you are taking PTO.  You can be short one hour which you will earn and be forced to cancel!


----------



## VacationForever

DaveNW said:


> My company pays a certain amount of PTO hours each pay period. You can’t take more than you’ve accrued. If you leave the company, accrued PTO hours are paid out. Unearned PTO hours don’t count, because they haven’t been earned yet.
> 
> Dave


PTO practice varies by state law.


----------



## geist1223

When Patti left the Company her last day was like the 28th. This caused her to lose 2 vacation days she could have cash in. The vacation days did not formerly accure until the last work day of The Month. The 30th was on a Saturday. So she would have had to go in and work 1 day. It was worth it to her to not have to go in for even one day and lose those 2 days. But HR did help her. They noticed that her Supervisor had been charging her Annual Leave (which you can sell back) during her FMLA time vice Sick Time (which you can not sell back) which is how it should have been charged. They redid her timesheets for that 8 weeks. So she did have a nice hunk of vacation to sell back to the company.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Mary Ann .. you are old enough to have started and stopped SEVERAL employment situations over the years. Many times it is the employee who decides to move on but sometimes it truly is the ecomony ... but MANY employees AND corporate executives TRY to sell excuses of, "it was the economy" or "NOT OF MY DOING!"

LOOK TO THE FUTURE for yourself ... but spend some time looking at WHAT YOU DID that might have cause your downward slide off the bosses' HAPPY PAGE. He/she is likely not a NUT TOTAL CASE .. if they still have the same spouse, have non-company friends, kids not in jail and neighbors who BBQ with them on weekends.

I have been 'downsized' ... but it was a corporate decision to AVOID the cost where the corporation did NOT *want to pay for massive numbers on future pensions vesting on Jan 1, 1983. *And my BIG boss offered 'to cover me' on that layoff so as to qualify for my pension. I chose to NOT ACCEPT his offer .. the bad blood of the corporate actions had been spilled and I _needed to TRULY MOVE ON_. The company paid ALL of MBA degree tuition & books plus 50% of 1 year's salary plus full medical insurance for me. Of course, the Human Resource manager told me ONLY one semester's tuition per draw ... and I told him that WAS ONE semester's bill. His next question that late December Day was "How did YOU get into a place this quick costing THat MUCH?" I had taken the GMATs 1 year earlier and my baby sister was attending school there. I sent Sis over to the Admissions Office and to find the "Person who COULD admit me NOW". Gave her clear instructions and called her back later in the afternoon. The guy was busy reading paperwork on his desk and she talked away ... about her sister applying for the MBA program, etc. Said it once about the company sending me for my MBA, reworded it ... and DANG! His eyes look up off his papers and his EYE

Years later, my independant agent contract was NOT renewed because the IRS had ruled AGAINST corporations regarding 'an outside contractor might be a "defacto direct employee"' ... and NOW a pensioned qualified employee with back vacation pay, comp time, accured sick leave, etc. As a contractor, I regularly made decisions bigger than a breadbox. One thing to be asked to build the mousetrap AND thing if I designed the mouse trap, approved the final decision, did a Bid Request, select the bid winner and did the terms on the contract. And some company clerk WROTE a check out on my say-so (way above ANY contractor rank).

And realize today ... corporations (and their employment agencies) WILL search everywheres for your flaws. Contractors are defined by their paycheck paperwork by their "TempHires" Service Company employee benefits (pretty bad) and GONE tomorrow.

As for my former worksites ... BOTH major corporations EXIST NO MORE. The intergrated oil company is GONE .. brought by a pipeline partnership ... and the 5 refineries' of equipment sold to China (their Texaco Corppration buy up was after my employee days). The chemical company (after my MBA) was sold/merged (even though the Blue Oval logo is found on many products) into a BIGGER chemical company and to other site's headquarters. And my former oil company's BIG boss .. he retired as a big executive of QVC.

Thinking about becoming a contractor? ... used to be called "ROAD WHORE". I was the most agreeable person on the floor ... I would even make the coffee order for a meeting ... if I was asked to ...singing in my head 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 dollars  ... was how I measure strokes for stirring in the sugar & creamer for each cup I prepared. Never got any cash tips .. but my daily rate was VERY GOOD.

I was younger than you when my 'last real' job ended in 1987. 31+ years ago. And I am single and live alone all during those following years. Working for myself ... managing my assets ... and I have a good crew of people who work in different technical fields to support me. People do change, but sometimes, I zap them or they move on.

BUT I must to be clear .. selfemployment is a HARD THING to do in the long run. YOU must have a backup plan, work hard and be very flexible. BUT then again, a bad boss is many times and issues, is way WORSE than working for yourself.

QVC ... who would have thought back in 1983 either of those guys would go there OVER from an intergrated oil company to a TV Shopping Channel business.


----------



## WinniWoman

PigsDad said:


> I think you will find that is the way a good percentage of companies handle their PTO.  On Jan 1 each year, we get access to 100% of our yearly PTO, but only accrue 1/24th of each each pay period (twice/month).  For example, I could take all of January off if I wanted, but I would have a negative accrual balance for most of the year.  We have also gotten the "encouragement" at times to use our PTO early in the year so the liability can be written off and make their first half financials look better.
> 
> If we leave the company and there is a negative accrual balance, that would be taken out of our last paycheck.  In fact, in many states companies are not required to pay accrued PTO when you leave.  I wouldn't expect any special treatment just because I happened to have 29 years with the company -- everyone is treated equally.
> 
> Kurt



Yes, I know. But a good bet with another company you might leave with a severance, a bonus, a pension, medical insurance , a package, something.

Ironically, the doctor group and their office staff- the old owners who now contract with this new company I am under- they get all their PTO days at the beginning of the year- no accrual- and they, too, have to take it by the end of the year like we do- but at least they get them all up front.

I disagree about being treated equally. There is a big difference from someone who leaves after a year or two and soemone with a company for 29 years as in your case.


----------



## WinniWoman

*"Mary Ann .. you are old enough to have started and stopped SEVERAL employment situations over the years. Many times it is the employee who decides to move on but sometimes it truly is the ecomony ... but MANY employees AND corporate executives TRY to sell excuses of, "it was the economy" or "NOT OF MY DOING!"

LOOK TO THE FUTURE for yourself ... but spend some time looking at WHAT YOU DID that might have cause your downward slide off the bosses' HAPPY PAGE. He/she is likely not a NUT TOTAL CASE .. if they still have the same spouse, have non-company friends, kids not in jail and neighbors who BBQ with them on weekends."*

I am sorry but I didn't do anything wrong. If I did, then so did the supervisor he fired who was there for 14 years. So did the nurse manager who was there only a few months who left because of his bullying. So was the Clinical Director who left because of him (said he was mean to her) who was there for 14 years. So is the tech who left before he even became director- because she worked for him in our other site and considers him to be evil- her words. And so did another tech who has told me she can't take it with him anymore. And so is another nurse who said as soon as she can get another day at the hospital she is out of there because he is targeting her. And so is one of our doctors who just had it out with him the other day. In fact- his experience with him is the same as mine pretty much.

No- sorry. I am not perfect and I make no secret of the fact that I am tired of working, but I did nothing wrong here at all. This guy is a nut case. You would have to be there to understand. Everyone- and I mean everyone- that knows him cannot believe he was put in charge- including every one of our doctors!!!

And- btw- the guy has 2 kids- one from a one night stand years ago; another from his first wife. Then he and his second wife parted after one year. He told me many times he dislikes his mother and his brother. But- ok- he does seem to have some friends outside work. But they don't have to work for him.

Tattoos all over his body including his favorite actor on his leg. And a mural of this actor on the OUTSIDE of his garage, which he had to paint over because his teenage daughter was teased about it by the kids on the school bus.

Does this sound like a "normal" person to you?


----------



## bogey21

There was a time in my past when we (I was the top dog in the company) went through a major downsizing.  We went out of our way to give those employees losing their jobs not only everything that was coming to them but a bunch of additional things we didn't have to do.  Why did we do it?  Simple.  We wanted the employees who didn't lose their jobs to feel like they were working for a company with compassion.  Trust me.  We got a whole lot more benefit from doing this than what it cost....

George


----------



## WinniWoman

https://positiveoutlooksblog.com/20...yees-quit-and-its-not-always-about-the-money/


----------



## Panina

mpumilia said:


> *"Mary Ann .. you are old enough to have started and stopped SEVERAL employment situations over the years. Many times it is the employee who decides to move on but sometimes it truly is the ecomony ... but MANY employees AND corporate executives TRY to sell excuses of, "it was the economy" or "NOT OF MY DOING!"
> 
> LOOK TO THE FUTURE for yourself ... but spend some time looking at WHAT YOU DID that might have cause your downward slide off the bosses' HAPPY PAGE. He/she is likely not a NUT TOTAL CASE .. if they still have the same spouse, have non-company friends, kids not in jail and neighbors who BBQ with them on weekends."*
> 
> I am sorry but I didn't do anything wrong. If I did, then so did the supervisor he fired who was there for 14 years. So did the nurse manager who was there only a few months who left because of his bullying. So was the Clinical Director who left because of him (said he was mean to her) who was there for 14 years. So is the tech who left before he even became director- because she worked for him in our other site and considers him to be evil- her words. And so did another tech who has told me she can't take it with him anymore. And so is another nurse who said as soon as she can get another day at the hospital she is out of there because he is targeting her. And so is one of our doctors who just had it out with him the other day. In fact- his experience with him is the same as mine pretty much.
> 
> No- sorry. I am not perfect and I make no secret of the fact that I am tired of working, but I did nothing wrong here at all. This guy is a nut case. You would have to be there to understand. Everyone- and I mean everyone- that knows him cannot believe he was out in charge- including every one of our doctors!!!
> 
> And- btw- the guy has 2 kids- one from a one night stand years ago; another from his first wife. Then he and his second wife parted after one year. He told me many times he dislikes his mother and his brother. But- ok- he does seem to have some friends outside work. But they don't have to work for him.
> 
> Tattoos all over his body including his favorite actor on his leg. And a pic of this actor on the OUTSIDE of his garage, which he had to take down because his teenage daughter was teased about it from kids on the bus.
> 
> Does this sound like a "normal" person to you?


I have to say this loud and clear Mary Ann, you did nothing wrong. Until someone is in your position they really can’t understand.  Unfortunately most women in our age category often work for younger people that want to flex their power plus look down at us for our age or for a person who can feel threatened by us. There is a reason this discussion is 21 pages, with almost 15,000 views.  It hit a cord with many of us.


----------



## WinniWoman

And I forgot to add the young female tech that accused him of harassment two years ago at our other site- the same day he committed road rage with me in the car- speeding and banging his fists on the dashboard. His texting and driving- passed right by a stopped school bus. He got thrown out a a doctor client's office because of his shenanigans (very embarrassing for me as I was with him). That doc complained about it to our owner doc.

His always referring to me as his mom when we were out on calls. Him running his other businesses while on company time. You have no idea what I had to tolerate working with this guy. He acted unprofessionally and incompletely when I was with him. Always joking around, a real prankster as well. Doing errands/personal shopping on company time. I could go on and on.

Always on his cell phone on personal calls when driving with me to clients. Refused to let me drive my car instead.

Oh- yeah- you have no idea about this guys' background. I am not making any of this up. 

He was even put on probation once - years ago-when he was in a lowly position with the company. But I did tell HR all about all this months ago when I called initially.

So he gets to keep his job while all us good people have to leave. SMH.....


----------



## VacationForever

mpumilia said:


> His always referring to me as his mom when we were out on calls.



This is juicy!  Have you brought up to your HR about age discrimination?  Have you documented, even just a couple of times - date and time, of when he did that?

If it is yes to reporting to HR and your documenting it, you have a good case with both EEOC and unemployment.  EEOC can get ugly for the company and if you want to spare them that, then at least this will get unemployment to be sympathetic.  You must have reported to HR and documented it.  With unemployment and EEOC claim, they would want to know whether you have reported the behavior to the higher up and they have done nothing to fix it, making it uncomfortable to continue to work there.  If you have not reported to HR or management then they won't be sympathetic.

Here is a quick search and the first article that came up.
http://www.hrmorning.com/is-it-ok-to-call-older-employee-pops-and-old-man/


----------



## WinniWoman

VacationForever said:


> This is juicy!  Have you brought up to your HR about age discrimination?  Have you documented, even just a couple of times - date and time, of when he did that?
> 
> If it is yes to reporting to HR and your documenting it, you have a good case with both EEOC and unemployment.  EEOC can get ugly for the company and if you want to spare them that, then at least this will get unemployment to be sympathetic.  You must have reported to HR and documented it.  With unemployment and EEOC claim, they would want to know whether you have reported the behavior to the higher up and they have done nothing to fix it, making it uncomfortable to continue to work there.  If you have not reported to HR or management then they won't be sympathetic.
> 
> Here is a quick search and the first article that came up.
> http://www.hrmorning.com/is-it-ok-to-call-older-employee-pops-and-old-man/




Yes- of course I did. I spilled it all! But it was verbal- on the phone. The HR person said she was going to communicate it all to the COO. I believe she recorded the conversation.The problem is- this was done in the past- not while he was in THEIR employ- so they cannot do anything about it. But I stressed that it still shows his perspective on working with me.

He has not done this since becoming director.

I also told them one of our doctors knows all about it- as she also calls me mom because of it. But that is done in good fun between us.

He has also joked about the hard of hearing man who is my age that works for us per diem in front of others- about his hearing issue.

He is a - as&&(0hole- well- you know what.


----------



## PigsDad

mpumilia said:


> Yes, I know. But a good bet with another company you might leave with a severance, a bonus, a pension, medical insurance , a package, something.
> …
> I disagree about being treated equally. There is a big difference from someone who leaves after a year or two and soemone with a company for 29 years as in your case.


If I were to be laid off, then yes, I would expect some kind of package.  But I honestly have never heard of people (except executives who have it built into their contract) getting severance or a bonus if they just quit.  I know all I would get is just what I have already been vested in, and as for medical, I am entitled to COBRA by law.

Kurt


----------



## WinniWoman

PigsDad said:


> If I were to be laid off, then yes, I would expect some kind of package.  But I honestly have never heard of people (except executives who have it built into their contract) getting severance or a bonus if they just quit.  I know all I would get is just what I have already been vested in, and as for medical, I am entitled to COBRA by law.
> 
> Kurt




Again- yes, I know. Believe me- I expected nothing from this company either way- whether I got let go or resigned. I was just implying that since I have been essentially "forced" out  think they could make an exception- not just for me but the others who were forced out also.

Believe me, the employees (both new and older) that remain see what is going on. How does the company think they perceive this?

These companies are really shrewd. They force people to resign because they don't want to pay unemployment claims and severance, etc. They will resort to any tactics they can.

These days. almost no one is vested in anything at most companies except maybe their own money in their 401k and possibly an employer match.

This is the kind of thing unions were formed over. Unlike the big executives, employees have no contracts. Hence- unions. (I am not a big union advocate by any means- just an observance).

Companies want your loyalty but you are just "nothing" to them. Just a chess piece on a board. Well- it works both ways and I understand why people become jaded about their employment and lower the bar on their commitment to a job. Hence the incredible amount of turnover at this place since I started 13 years ago.

Since I have worked many places since I was 16 I can see the difference between the average workplaces today and the ones from years ago. And the ones today are not the kind of places you don't mind getting up in the morning for.

The only thing I can say is that I will miss is interacting with the nice people I worked with both at the office and in the field. That's it.

(There are some lucky ones. Ex: The woman who cuts my hair told me her husband is burnt out and going to retire next year at age 60. She said he has a nice pension and they will have medical paid for both of them for life.)


----------



## Brett

mpumilia said:


> Again- yes, I know. Believe me- I expected nothing from this company either way- whether I got let go or resigned. I was just implying that since I have been essentially "forced" out  think they could make an exception- not just for me but the others who were forced out also.
> 
> Believe me, the employees (both new and older) that remain see what is going on. How does the company think they perceive this?
> 
> These companies are really shrewd. They force people to resign because they don't want to pay unemployment claims and severance, etc. They will resort to any tactics they can.
> 
> These days. almost no one is vested in anything at most companies except maybe their own money in their 401k and possibly an employer match.
> 
> This is the kind of thing unions were formed over. Unlike the big executives, employees have no contracts. Hence- unions. (I am not a big union advocate by any means- just an observance).
> 
> Companies want your loyalty but you are just "nothing" to them. Just a chess piece on a board. Well- it works both ways and I understand why people become jaded about their employment and lower the bar on their commitment to a job. Hence the incredible amount of turnover at this place since I started 13 years ago.
> 
> Since I have worked many places since I was 16 I can see the difference between the average workplaces today and the ones from years ago. And the ones today are not the kind of places you don't mind getting up in the morning for.
> 
> The only thing I can say is that I will miss is interacting with the nice people I worked with both at the office and in the field. That's it.
> 
> (There are some lucky ones. Ex: The woman who cuts my hair told me her husband is burnt out and going to retire next year at age 60. She said he has a nice pension and they will have medical paid for both of them for life.)



true, the relationship between employees and companies has changed over the years not necessarily good for the employee.  It's rare to get a pension and medical benefits when retiring.    The employee is becoming more of 'contractor' with limited loyalty to a company and very limited benefits.  Hope you bounce back with a better company


----------



## Glynda

I would hope that HR and other management would see the complaints and notice the loss of so many employees under him and let him go!!


----------



## WinniWoman

Glynda said:


> I would hope that HR and other management would see the complaints and notice the loss of so many employees under him and let him go!!



Unless they are also dirt bags, which I think may be very possible.


----------



## sue1947

Mary Ann,
  Congratulations on making the decision to move on.  Your stress level has to be over the top so the hard part now is to finish up and let all that old baggage slip away.  I quit/retired after a stressful time of downsizing and layoffs and while I realized I was stressed, I didn't realize how much until looking back at it.  It took a good 6 months or more to decompress.  Your situation is so much worse.  The key now is to look forward and do what is best for your future.

1.  Apply for unemployment.  Normally, you aren't entitled if you quit, but you aren't quitting because you want to; you are being forced out.  Don't let them weasel out of their responsibilities.  The money may give you the bridge you need in the future so apply.  If they say no, then you are back where you started, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.  

2.  Deal with your 401K.  Transferring is easy peasy; but you know all this so this step is the easy one of taking care of your future.

3.  If you are looking for another job, let all your business contacts know and get their contact information for later when you will need references or are ready to look for a new job.  

4.  Dump all the old baggage; easier said than done.  Do whatever is best for you to deal with stress; long walks/bike rides, working on hobbies; whatever.  Just understand it will take some time but it will happen.  I think the main thing is to realize that even though it all feels very personal, it is really all about them and not you.  Box all that stuff up and shove it away (metaphorically speaking).  
5.   I hope this thread has helped you vent and get rid of some of the stress.  I think it helps to know you aren't the only one this has happened to.  That helps to realize it isn't about you, but about your boss and his insecurities.  

Hang in there; we have your back.
Sue


----------



## SandyPGravel

mpumilia said:


> Unless they are also dirt bags, which I think may be very possible.



Exactly what I was thinking.  Someone had to think he was good for the job and field the complaints about him, yet he still holds that position.  "They" are just as bad as him even if it is only because they are complicit.


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## SandyPGravel

sue1947 said:


> Do whatever is best for you to deal with stress; long walks/bike rides, working on hobbies; whatever.*Timeshare vacation *


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## MabelP

*Timeshare vacation *
*
Yes!*


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## Talent312

Glynda said:


> I would hope that HR and other management would see the complaints and notice the loss of so many employees under him and let him go!!



More likely, they'll notice how much he's saved the company by purging high-paid employees, and give him a bonus for that.
.


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## rapmarks

Talent312 said:


> More likely, they'll notice how much he's saved the company by purging high-paid employees, and give him a bonus for that.
> .


Right, and someone said figure out what she did wrong, she did nothing wrong, but someone else would be cheaper


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## VacationForever

I said in an earlier post, don't forget that managers are often urged to do whatever necessary to encourage certain employees to quit.  The fact is that the manager still has a job when it is obvious that he is a poor manager tells me that his boss likes what this guy is doing, including driving certain employees out.

When I said I don't like office politics, that includes being a manager and being put in a bad position by the higher up.  With each half yearly and annual review, we had to put hardworking employees on a "slower than" or "improvement required", meaning no pay increase, because we had to meet quota for a certain percentage of employees to not get a pay increase or to be put on a performance management plan.  I hated being a manager of that company.  We sometimes got blamed for being poor managers by our staff when our staff received no pay increase or put on a performance management plan.

On the other side of the coin, my manager once told me to "do whatever necessary to get that guy out of our organization".  That guy was a real survivor, someone who produced nothing but was simply hard to pin down as a non-performer and I got creative and found a home for that guy with a new manager.  The next time I met the new manager, he told me that he got suckered by me to take that guy.  I looked at him as though I had no clue what he was talking about.


----------



## Tia

Sadly I don't doubt this could be possible, idiots. 



Talent312 said:


> More likely, they'll notice how much he's saved the company by purging high-paid employees, and give him a bonus for that.
> .


----------



## WinniWoman

Talent312 said:


> More likely, they'll notice how much he's saved the company by purging high-paid employees, and give him a bonus for that.
> .




If you knew my salary you would not consider it high paid for what I do. But- yeah- you're right.


----------



## WinniWoman

So he sent out a memo this afternoon announcing all the changes in personnel in the Fall (and there are quite a few)and the young woman (maybe 30 years old) I said he was going to replace me with back in March is the one! I called it!

She is the one that used to work at the front desk. No marketing experience. Got an associates degree back in December in Communications and came out with us a few times in the field for her college credits (so she said) prior to leaving the company. When he took the helm, he brought her in to train some of the front desk people and I immediately knew it would be her. He was probably going to keep her on and gradually ease her into "assisting" me (since they claimed we needed an additional marketing person) and then show me the door once she was oriented.

She is very nice. Also the aunt of his fav that he brought in to help him run the place (and whom he fired the other woman for). Who also has her sister working there as well. A family affair.

I have nothing against her- always liked her. I hear through the grapevine that she is starting on the 17th of Sept. full time (not part-time as the ad he had on Indeed in July had stated). That is my last week. 

One thing for sure, it will be a bit awkward orienting her as we have known each other for many years and were very friendly with each other on the job in the past. I wonder if he will have the clinical director with us at all times or something like that. 

As for him- I still haven't seen or spoken with him since last week. Nor has his fav or that new clinical director even said anything to me about me leaving. Avoiding me I guess. 

Rest of the staff and my fav doc have been very nice and supportive of me- congratulating me on getting out of the hell hole on the one hand, but offering their condolences for the treatment on the other.

I have been visiting select clients- ones that I am very close with- and telling them the truth of what happened so as they will not be told any lies by my successor or the boss. I also told them this is not to shed a bad light on our staff because most are wonderful and hard working- including the docs. Just that they know this is what transpired with management.


----------



## MOXJO7282

This is the type of thing that you see in smaller companies because HR depts are usually just fill-ins but in a large corps this stuff would be reported and that guy would be out of a job fast.  If you ask me Mary Ann let them off the hook and should've pursued at the very least unemployment insurance for basically being forced out.  I just hope the guy and other bosses like him gets what's coming to him. 

One of the best work experience I had is when I could tell a loser like him that I quit to go work at a real company.  I was right out of college and this guy who assigned projects never would give me much and then would ask "why aren't you doing more?" When I got my job at a big Fortune 500 company he had the nerve to ask me to put in a good word for him to get a job there.


----------



## dsmrp

VacationForever said:


> I said in an earlier post, don't forget that managers are often urged to do whatever necessary to encourage certain employees to quit.  The fact is that the manager still has a job when it is obvious that he is a poor manager tells me that his boss likes what this guy is doing, including driving certain employees out.



Yeah, unfortunately true, sometimes they want to get the 'old guard' out to get younger and less expensive people in.

However in my friend's husband's case several years ago, he just got reassigned to a poor manager who didn't know how to work with people and had off-beat ideas.  After a year or so, my friend's husband decided he'd rather retire (lucky for him that he could) than work with this manager.  I think others left too.  He took satisfaction hearing a year+ later, that his former manager got fired big time by upper management for driving away the talent!


----------



## Glynda

Talent312 said:


> More likely, they'll notice how much he's saved the company by purging high-paid employees, and give him a bonus for that.
> .



Perhaps for now. One can only hope that, at some point, someone will realize that such a toxic environment actually hurts the bottom line by continuously losing experienced employees who had good relationships with valuable clients. Such clients may look elsewhere for services and the company may have a harder time acquiring new ones.


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## am1

Would be much easier if companies could hire and fire/let go at will.  Then games would not have to be played.  Let people stand behind their work and what they offer the company.  

If I was going to quit I would have given less time.  Let the powers to be and the problem manager know I could not stand another minute there because of the issues that have not been addressed.


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## rapmarks

The way they got rid of my brother in law who had quad bypass and went back too early was to change his job description from supervisory to pushing 1200pound bales around and climbing forty foot ladders.


----------



## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> Would be much easier if companies could hire and fire/let go at will.  Then games would not have to be played.  Let people stand behind their work and what they offer the company.
> 
> If I was going to quit I would have given less time.  Let the powers to be and the problem manager know I could not stand another minute there because of the issues that have not been addressed.




New York State IS an AT WILL employer state. People can be fired for any reason except outright discrimination.

But the problem is that companies want to ease a new person in- let the old person train them- and then harass the old employee so much that he/she quits- because the company does not want to pay unemployment claims!

That is why they put employees through this!

I gave a month's notice- which is still less than required per the employee handbook, which states you must give notice equal to your yearly PTO days (yet they don't pay you the remaining ones when you leave. How does that work?!). 

BTW- even if I was entitled to a few days accrued PTO time when I left- the handbook also states the company will only pays out HALF of what you accrued! How to you like them apples? SMH....

I gave a month because I have a vacation planned during this time period and also because Labor Day week is a short week for me (I am off Monday and Friday).

So-I figured I only have to tolerate the place for really 2.5 weeks. Plus- at least I will get THOSE PTO days I take for the vacation paid for. I work a week (this week). I work 3 days next week. I go on vacation. I come back the following week- which is my final week (the week the new woman starts). And then I'm done.


----------



## WinniWoman

rapmarks said:


> The way they got rid of my brother in law who had quad bypass and went back too early was to change his job description from supervisory to pushing 1200pound bales around and climbing forty foot ladders.




Wow! Despicable!


----------



## Chrispee

Regardless of how much I personally liked my successor, you wouldn’t catch me training him/her in a scenario like this one.


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## Jan M.

Chrispee said:


> Regardless of how much I personally liked my successor, you wouldn’t catch me training him/her in a scenario like this one.



I completely agree. It is over the line offensive to be asked to do it under the circumstances and even more so given this company's history with other employees who have also left for the same reasons. But more importantly for your own self respect you should not do this. Don't be a martyr! You are not being vindictive or giving payback by refusing to do it. You are saying I'm a person of worth and I will not lie down and let you stomp all over me with heavy boots! I know you are trying to do what is right and be professional but this crosses a line and becomes a shame on me situation.
*
Do Not Do It! *If when you return from your vacation you are asked to do it and refuse, let them tell you you can be done if that is what they want to do. Your self respect and dignity are worth a few days pay.


----------



## WinniWoman

Jan M. said:


> I completely agree. It is over the line offensive to be asked to do it under the circumstances and even more so given this company's history with other employees who have also left for the same reasons. But more importantly for your own self respect you should not do this. Don't be a martyr! You are not being vindictive or giving payback by refusing to do it. You are saying I'm a person of worth and I will not lie down and let you stomp all over me with heavy boots! I know you are trying to do what is right and be professional but this crosses a line and becomes a shame on me situation.
> *
> Do Not Do It! *If when you return from your vacation you are asked to do it and refuse, let them tell you you can be done if that is what they want to do. Your self respect and dignity are worth a few days pay.




I understand. But- I fear they will then not pay me my vacation days and I don't want that to happen. I don't underestimate them. Really I could use the money until I can redo our household budget and see where we stand. We have to stop IRA contributions, cut my husband's 401k contribution to the minimum just to get the employer match, stop all other savings, and cut out some other things, so a bit more cash flow will help.

It is not really a training I am going to do. More like just an orientation I believe. He said in his letter he wants me to introduce her to a few of our main clients. And an update of things I was working on for her to take over. 

I have already started to tell some of our main clients what has occurred so they now the truth of what went on. That is what I am working on until I go on vacation. LOL!

Again- who knows with this guy? He might let me go before then anyway. He did say the clinical director was going to work with me during the transition. I have no clue what it all means.

Today I deleted a lot of stuff from my computer and all my emails, except a few. Lots of stuff went into the shredder- my notes and things. I got an email from the COO thanking me for the letter and saying she was sorry to hear I was leaving and it was good to meet me. yeah- right. I'm not responding.


----------



## elaine

Imho I try to do the right thing even when not deserved by others. Train tour successor in a professional way and wish her good luck. Hold your head high in your last days there. Then you can be proud of your behavior and your ability to rise above this. Best wishes. We’ll be at Smuggs next July. Maybe we’ll see you there! Elaine.


----------



## Chrispee

I advocate doing the “right thing” in almost every scenario. However, Mary Ann has been marginalized by her manager/employer with actions showing that they have little respect for the work she does. I would be happy to see my successor struggle a bit to perform the duties. 

I can certainly understand not wanting to Have to go to battle to get paid out due to the animosity though.


----------



## bogey21

elaine said:


> Train your successor in a professional way and wish her good luck. Hold your head high in your last days there. Then you can be proud of your behavior and your ability to rise above this.



I agree with the above.  Not only is it the right thing to do but trust me, people will notice and when/if asked about you down the road they will be more inclined to say positive things about you...

George


----------



## VacationForever

elaine said:


> Imho I try to do the right thing even when not deserved by others. Train tour successor in a professional way and wish her good luck. Hold your head high in your last days there. Then you can be proud of your behavior and your ability to rise above this. Best wishes. We’ll be at Smuggs next July. Maybe we’ll see you there! Elaine.


I agree with you.


----------



## WinniWoman

elaine said:


> Imho I try to do the right thing even when not deserved by others. Train tour successor in a professional way and wish her good luck. Hold your head high in your last days there. Then you can be proud of your behavior and your ability to rise above this. Best wishes. We’ll be at Smuggs next July. Maybe we’ll see you there! Elaine.




Thanks. 

As for Smuggs - Awesome. Week 30? (that's our week before the week 31 Pollard Brook one)


----------



## am1

I would have not said anything until after taking the vacation.  Then come back from vacation and give my notice of how I can no longer work for the company and list the reasons.  Would send a loud and clear message.  Or wait for a situation and quit on the spot.


----------



## dsmrp

am1 said:


> I would have not said anything until after taking the vacation.  Then come back from vacation and give my notice of how I can no longer work for the company and list the reasons.  Would send a loud and clear message.  Or wait for a situation and quit on the spot.



+1 on giving (2 weeks or required) notice after taking the vacation.


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## Chrispee

Mary Ann, you’ve obviously struck a chord with many of us as we all seem to have an opinion of what we’d do in your position!


----------



## MOXJO7282

mpumilia said:


> I gave a month's notice- which is still less than required per the employee handbook, which states you must give notice equal to your yearly PTO days (yet they don't pay you the remaining ones when you leave. How does that work?!)



This also kills me, they can walk you out but yet it's unprofessional to resign without giving 2 weeks or whatever.  As far as training the new person, I also would take the high road and do it to the best of my ability. She didn't do anything wrong and I'd actually feel sorry for her because if this guy is that bad and he gets away with it, it can't be a good company to work for anymore.


----------



## Jan M.

If I'm remembering correctly from Mary Ann's posts this jerk is bringing in friends and relatives to replace the people he's targeted and who's lives he's made miserable. Mary Ann has rightfully suspected he's had this person waiting in the wings to take Mary Ann's place when he succeeded in getting rid of her. Mary Ann is a people pleaser and likely overlooking the fact that this woman has been waiting In the wings like a vulture knowing full well what is being done to Mary Ann. He is an abuser and likely will get satisfaction out of victimizing and denigrating Mary Ann by knowing he's succeeded in forcing her out,  making her train and go into clients offices with the person he picked months ago to replace her. In addition to complaints about him there have been enough other people who have left for the same reasons that Mary Ann is leaving and said why they are leaving that the company cannot be considered innocent of knowing what he is doing.

Please think about this when we tell her to do the "right thing". If her husband was abusing her would any of us tell her it is the right thing to stay and help him? Abusers count on their victims being concerned about what other people will think or say. Explain to me how her boss and the company are not guilty of abuse of her and the other people. A victim owes their abusers nothing and no one should ever tell the victim otherwise nor that they should care about what other people think.

Mary Ann seems set on her course and the money is important to her. That is her choice and she appears to be doing it on her terms as much as possible. However when she comes back after vacation, after getting a break from the situation and rejuvenated by her vacation, she may feel differently. And she shouldn't feel any shame or regret that she didn't do the "right thing" if she changes her mind.

This has touched so many of us for various reasons it feels like we would all enjoy a party to help her celebrate when this is all done.


----------



## WinniWoman

Jan M. is absolutely correct. I am more concerned with just getting a bit more money and not about doing what is right because these people do not deserve it. They are despicable and I felt so humiliated these past few months. I don't owe them anything. I did everything this jerk asked me to do. All the grunt work he gave me. Put up with his treatment. Tried to make it work and do my job but he kept at it- trying to break me. I guess he did. He got his way.

This young woman- my replacement-of course has known what was going on since probably the end of last year actually. The funny thing is, the boss used to tell me that her husband was a creep- abusive and controlling and that she could have done so much better with her choice of a spouse and she was in a bad situation.  (She is actually not married- just lives with the guy and their 2 kids). So very easy for him to zero in on her- takes one to know one! And- like I said- she is the aunt of the young woman he brought over to our site when he fired the older supervisor who had been there for 14 years.

Funny- I was speaking with one of our night desk people- who talks with my replacement at times- and she said this woman said she was sorry I was leaving. I asked her- "Really? How can that be? She knows what is going on and she is taking my job! She is lying!".  She hasn't even really worked here in over a year! She worked Saturdays only and then resigned until he brought her back to do the training of the front desk newbies back in March. Then she was gone again after that.

Anyway, from this front desk person- she is how I found out the new person is starting the day I come back from vacation and will be working full time. Boss has not informed me of this or spoken to me all week. Haven't even seen or spoken  him since I sent the resignation letter. Lucky me! Because I can't even look at him.

Trust me, I am coasting along now. Doing very little- even less than the bare minimum. The pressure is off. They are not getting anything out of me. I am getting there a little bit late and leaving a little bit earlier each day. I am spending my time saying goodbye to our clients (wink wink). Speaking with my coworkers I am surprised actually that they are keeping me on, knowing I can be talking with the clients and other coworkers. After all- what I do for a living is TALK. And he always said he worried about me talking in the lunchroom. Well- guess what? We are all talking in there! So what? Even if we couldn't- there is social media now and we are all on that as well!

I was very angry the beginning of this week (and for 6 months!). Now I am looking at it in a more humorous way. I do feel a bit off and confused and have a lot of anxiety over the future. But one of my coworkers said I look good- my face looks more peaceful, so that's a good thing I guess.

Think I will empty out some work stuff from my car today. I love cleaning out things and organizing. Perfect time for it with Fall approaching.....


----------



## WinniWoman

Funny, after following my posts on FB, now there is talk of a big get together for all ex employees! They would need a HUGE place to hold it at because there have to be a couple of hundred of us! And for a very small company- that only employs maybe 30 - 50 people at any given time- most part time or per diem- that alone says it all! The turnover since it it opened 15 or 16 years ago has been nothing short of astounding!  LOL!


----------



## vacationhopeful

Mary Ann .. while it has been YEARS since I had to deal with a jerk boss, I still remember his 'attitude' and 'concern' (NOT!). He thought of himself as 'special', insightful and 'teflon coated' from all possible crap. It did NOT take me LONG to move on BUT .... I still HATE all person's named Jonathan and USE that full name.

This 'layoff' or 'termination' or 'moving on' does affect YOU. YOU have lost your DAYTIME life, your 'flow' during the hours of 6AM to 6PM, M-F. You will be losing contact with so many DAYTIME faces, DAYTIME connections, DAYTIME routines ... and when finally OFF THE JOB or OUT THE DOOR, you truly will understand, that door has closed forever. When I was terminated by the oil company employer of almost 10 years ... I started a fulltime MBA program in a locale 100+ miles away from all I knew within 2.5 months. I packed up my house, stored almost everything in a garage and moved to a walkup apartment with less than 10% of my STUFF. I traded (had to actually PAID a few thousand dollars for both settlements ... NO realtor commissions paid) my almost new, modern house for a 60+ year old plus under half the size of where I lived ... then rented that rancher out 2 months later and moved to a walkup apartment in the college town. AND no one from the job .. no matter how friendly before or ski vacation trips of 7 nights to Canada or lunches eaten together... their LIVES and their routines continued ... my world dropped off their universe .. never called me or sent me a note. I no longer existed in THEIR WORLD. And I slowly realize, they were 'work' things .. just like the desks in the offices. No, not bad people BUT their world was barely changed ... mine was spun around like in a blender. I literally was turned inside out and upside down. And no goodbye lunch, no best wishes, no good luck ... just GONE. 

You made a choice ... you QUIT. Look forward. And expect NOTHING from your old life ... esp the coworkers. They and their desks are still sitting in that former building you went to for years.

I did as much as I could FOR MY NEW PATH IN LIFE ..... I MOVED away; I started graduate school ... the only person I knew in the NEW town, was my 10 year younger sister who also attended that school but lived in a dorm and been there for 2.5 years. I DID CRY. I WAS LOST. My life was altered. It was NOT really my choice. All I could do was pick 'the lesser evils' options. And the grad school class members ... most were local people, many with fulltime jobs and families. I did not even turn on the natural gas to run my stove in the kitchen .. I existed with a plug in electric skillet for a FULL YEAR and a plug in immersion coil to BOIL WATER (microwaves not yet born). No bed ... I slept on my sofa. I did have my vacation home about an hour north of the college ... with creature comforts like a Washer/Dryer and a full kitchen. But my college address was "4th and Taylor" above the law office who owned the building... never used the street number. Got NO MAIL there either .. was sent to my NJ Post Office box. 

And there were days, I cried.


----------



## Talent312

"[N]ow there is talk of a big get together for all ex employees! They would need a HUGE place to hold it at because there have to be a couple of hundred of us!"
-----------------------

Sounds like you could start a new company to compete with your s2bx-company.
.


----------



## Panina

vacationhopeful said:


> Mary Ann .. while it has been YEARS since I had to deal with a jerk boss, I still remember his 'attitude' and 'concern' (NOT!). He thought of himself as 'special', insightful and 'teflon coated' from all possible crap. It did NOT take me LONG to move on BUT .... I still HATE all person's named Jonathan and USE that full name.
> 
> This 'layoff' or 'termination' or 'moving on' does affect YOU. YOU have lost your DAYTIME life, your 'flow' during the hours of 6AM to 6PM, M-F. You will be losing contact with so many DAYTIME faces, DAYTIME connections, DAYTIME routines ... and when finally OFF THE JOB or OUT THE DOOR, you truly will understand, that door has closed forever. When I was terminated by the oil company employer of almost 10 years ... I started a fulltime MBA program in a locale 100+ miles away from all I knew within 2.5 months. I packed up my house, stored almost everything in a garage and moved to a walkup apartment with less than 10% of my STUFF. I traded (had to actually PAID a few thousand dollars for both settlements ... NO realtor commissions paid) my almost new, modern house for a 60+ year old plus under half the size of where I lived ... then rented that rancher out 2 months later and moved to a walkup apartment in the college town. AND no one from the job .. no matter how friendly before or ski vacation trips of 7 nights to Canada or lunches eaten together... their LIVES and their routines continued ... my world dropped off their universe .. never called me or sent me a note. I no longer existed in THEIR WORLD. And I slowly realize, they were 'work' things .. just like the desks in the offices. No, not bad people BUT their world was barely changed ... mine was spun around like in a blender. I literally was turned inside out and upside down. And no goodbye lunch, no best wishes, no good luck ... just GONE.
> 
> You made a choice ... you QUIT. Look forward. And expect NOTHING from your old life ... esp the coworkers. They and their desks are still sitting in that former building you went to for years.
> 
> I did as much as I could FOR MY NEW PATH IN LIFE ..... I MOVED away; I started graduate school ... the only person I knew in the NEW town, was my 10 year younger sister who also attended that school but lived in a dorm and been there for 2.5 years. I DID CRY. I WAS LOST. My life was altered. It was NOT really my choice. All I could do was pick 'the lesser evils' options. And the grad school class members ... most were local people, many with fulltime jobs and families. I did not even turn on the natural gas to run my stove in the kitchen .. I existed with a plug in electric skillet for a FULL YEAR and a plug in immersion coil to BOIL WATER (microwaves not yet born). No bed ... I slept on my sofa. I did have my vacation home about an hour north of the college ... with creature comforts like a Washer/Dryer and a full kitchen. But my college address was "4th and Taylor" above the law office who owned the building... never used the street number. Got NO MAIL there either .. was sent to my NJ Post Office box.
> 
> And there were days, I cried.


Heartfelt, thank you for sharing. Hard times often happen to good people.  You have clearly shown what we do with our sadness determines our future.  Vacationhopeful, I believe mpumilia is strong like us and will endure and find a new path of happiness. Mpumila sadness and anger might be felt but in time those will be behind you and the relief and new path your take will take its place.  Whereas you workplace “friends” might be the past, your tugger friends are here for you.


----------



## Egret1986

Jan M. said:


> If I'm remembering correctly from MaryAnn's posts this jerk is bringing in friends and relatives to replace the people he's targeted and who's lives he's made miserable. MaryAnn has rightfully suspected he's had this person waiting in the wings to take MaryAnn place when he succeeded in getting rid of her. MaryAnn is a people pleaser and likely overlooking the fact that this woman has been waiting In the wings like a vulture knowing full well what is being done to MaryAnn. He is an abuser and likely will get satisfaction out of victimizing and denigrating MaryAnn by knowing he's succeeded in forcing her out,  making her train and go into clients offices with the person he picked months ago to replace her. In addition to complaints about him there have been enough other people who have left for the same reasons that MaryAnn is leaving and said why they are leaving that the company cannot be considered innocent of knowing what he is doing.
> 
> Please think about this when we tell her to do the "right thing". If her husband were abusing her would any of us tell her it is the right thing to stay and help him? Abusers count on their victims being concerned about what other people will think or say. Explain to me how her boss and the company are not guilty of abuse of her and the other people. A victim owes their abusers nothing and no one should ever tell the victim otherwise or that they should care about what other people think.
> 
> MaryAnn seems set on her course and the money is important to her. That is her choice and she appears to be doing it on her terms as much as possible. However when she comes back after vacation, after getting a break from the situation and rejuvenated by her vacation, she may feel differently. And she shouldn't feel any shame or regret that she didn't do the "right thing" if she changes her mind.
> 
> This has touched so many of us for various reasons it feels like we would all enjoy a party to help her celebrate when this is all done.



Great reminder, Jan.  Mary Ann has been through so much and still has maintained a very high level of professionalism.  It's in her DNA (and financial best interest) to slug through all this mire without "snapping."  I'm glad she has TUG as another source to vent and share camaraderie.  Yes, a celebration party is in order! 

You are correct, Jan; "A victim owes their abusers nothing and no one should ever tell the victim otherwise or that they should care about what other people think." 


She has been mentally and emotionally brutalized.  




MOXJO7282 said:


> I just hope the guy and other bosses like him gets what's coming to him.



Yep.


----------



## WinniWoman

vacationhopeful said:


> Mary Ann .. while it has been YEARS since I had to deal with a jerk boss, I still remember his 'attitude' and 'concern' (NOT!). He thought of himself as 'special', insightful and 'teflon coated' from all possible crap. It did NOT take me LONG to move on BUT .... I still HATE all person's named Jonathan and USE that full name.
> 
> This 'layoff' or 'termination' or 'moving on' does affect YOU. YOU have lost your DAYTIME life, your 'flow' during the hours of 6AM to 6PM, M-F. You will be losing contact with so many DAYTIME faces, DAYTIME connections, DAYTIME routines ... and when finally OFF THE JOB or OUT THE DOOR, you truly will understand, that door has closed forever. When I was terminated by the oil company employer of almost 10 years ... I started a fulltime MBA program in a locale 100+ miles away from all I knew within 2.5 months. I packed up my house, stored almost everything in a garage and moved to a walkup apartment with less than 10% of my STUFF. I traded (had to actually PAID a few thousand dollars for both settlements ... NO realtor commissions paid) my almost new, modern house for a 60+ year old plus under half the size of where I lived ... then rented that rancher out 2 months later and moved to a walkup apartment in the college town. AND no one from the job .. no matter how friendly before or ski vacation trips of 7 nights to Canada or lunches eaten together... their LIVES and their routines continued ... my world dropped off their universe .. never called me or sent me a note. I no longer existed in THEIR WORLD. And I slowly realize, they were 'work' things .. just like the desks in the offices. No, not bad people BUT their world was barely changed ... mine was spun around like in a blender. I literally was turned inside out and upside down. And no goodbye lunch, no best wishes, no good luck ... just GONE.
> 
> You made a choice ... you QUIT. Look forward. And expect NOTHING from your old life ... esp the coworkers. They and their desks are still sitting in that former building you went to for years.
> 
> I did as much as I could FOR MY NEW PATH IN LIFE ..... I MOVED away; I started graduate school ... the only person I knew in the NEW town, was my 10 year younger sister who also attended that school but lived in a dorm and been there for 2.5 years. I DID CRY. I WAS LOST. My life was altered. It was NOT really my choice. All I could do was pick 'the lesser evils' options. And the grad school class members ... most were local people, many with fulltime jobs and families. I did not even turn on the natural gas to run my stove in the kitchen .. I existed with a plug in electric skillet for a FULL YEAR and a plug in immersion coil to BOIL WATER (microwaves not yet born). No bed ... I slept on my sofa. I did have my vacation home about an hour north of the college ... with creature comforts like a Washer/Dryer and a full kitchen. But my college address was "4th and Taylor" above the law office who owned the building... never used the street number. Got NO MAIL there either .. was sent to my NJ Post Office box.
> 
> And there were days, I cried.




Thanks for sharing, Linda. I so get this so it will not surprise me in my own case. I actually lead a very lonely life outside work- though I do have my husband, of course. But I have no social life.  Except for Facebook-lol! I have been through it many times before as I have had lots of jobs. With the exception of one, I have never seen those coworkers again. Plus- everyone lives all over the place.

I have like 2 or 3 close friends that I never see and barely speak to because they live so far away. I was saddened when my best friend and maid of honor called her neighbor her best friend when we spoke on the phone a while ago. But I totally understood it as we live far from each other- different states- and time changes everything. We do have some old friends that visit us once a year in late Fall- a big reunion is scheduled at my place on 10/27.

At work I have friendly coworkers, but none that I socialize with outside work. Neither does my husband actually. He belongs to a sportsmens club- and knows people there- but again- not to socialize with outside of that. And we live in a rural area - secluded.

I think that is the way life is these days. I expect nothing from anyone and never did. I am an independent person. Some of my coworkers mingle outside of work and I am usually not included. Just as well because I cannot drive in the dark and most often they get together in the evenings.

I used to own dogs and that was companionship. Now I don't want to be tied down. Maybe when I am a lot older.

And- we do plan on moving and I also know it will be even harder to make a friend. Nothing is never like your old friends from childhood I think. And people move on as they get older- move to other areas, some pass, others work and have their own families and grandchildren (which I also do not have). etc. I worked in home care most of my life so I know how it goes.

I am a person that can be alone for long periods of time. And I also always said I have no time to work! LOL! I find things to do.

I do know what it is like to be lonely. Again- I do at least have my husband. Yes- I will miss my coworkers and clients, but that is just the way it is and I accept it.


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## VacationForever

When I left the big job, big company with big pay, well, senior managers were offered a hush hush buyout that never made it to Wall Street News, I knew I had to look ahead.  I could have stayed on and not taken the buyout but I had enough of the company, yearly layoff of our staff which broke our hearts.  The culture we so loved and thought we would never want to work elsewhere was gone. New CEO who was turning the place into Kmart of High Tech with cost cutting was down right depressing.  I left all my plaques - lots of recognition stuff behind in my office.  They were going to be part of my previous life.

I dreamt in my sleep frequently through the years of still working in that company, initially many of the dreams were about being hired back there and later were just about still working there.  When I woke up from those dreams I always felt sad.  It has been more than 10 years, and I don't have dreams like that as frequently anymore.  It was my life and will remain in my old memories.  We must only look forward.

All the best, MaryAnn.


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## IngridN

I don't know how your PTO work as all I've ever experienced is regular sick leave...have you thought about 'catching' a bad cold/flu/respiratory infection on your vacation and spend your last working week sick in bed!!!


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## WinniWoman

IngridN said:


> I don't know how your PTO work as all I've ever experienced is regular sick leave...have you thought about 'catching' a bad cold/flu/respiratory infection on your vacation and spend your last working week sick in bed!!!



LO! No- unfortunately I will not be entitled to be paid. PTO are considered sick, vacation or personal- whatever you use them for.


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## WinniWoman

VacationForever said:


> When I left the big job, big company with big pay, well, senior managers were offered a hush hush buyout that never made it to Wall Street News, I knew I had to look ahead.  I could have stayed on and not taken the buyout but I had enough of the company, yearly layoff of our staff which broke our hearts.  The culture we so loved and thought we would never want to work elsewhere was gone. New CEO who was turning the place into Kmart of High Tech with cost cutting was down right depressing.  I left all my plaques - lots of recognition stuff behind in my office.  They were going to be part of my previous life.
> 
> I dreamt in my sleep frequently through the years of still working in that company, initially many of the dreams were about being hired back there and later were just about still working there.  When I woke up from those dreams I always felt sad.  It has been more than 10 years, and I don't have dreams like that as frequently anymore.  It was my life and will remain in my old memories.  We must only look forward.
> 
> All the best, MaryAnn.



Thank you so much. I so relate to this also from past experiences in other jobs I have had.

I just got a text message from a nurse who used to work here. She said she is leaving her job of 15 MONTHS at another medical facility- a huge monolith of an organization. She said it is pathetic what goes on there. Ordering unnecessary tests and scamming insurance companies by ordering every test as a Stat thereby not having to deal with insurance authorizations. She said she can't tell me the half of it. Too much to put into a text. She has another healthcare job lined up to go to, but she said she can't wait to get out of healthcare altogether.

PS I just this morning threw out all my little things I had on my desk- my mug (with a picture of a laptop on it that read "I keep hitting the ESCAPE button but I'm still here"); my wooden calendar my son gave me with Crabby on it that said "It's been a tough week this morning" and "I love my attitude problem"); my VERMONT magazine with it's beautiful pictures of my favorite state; and my soft briefcase with my initials on it that was given to me by one of the promotional companies I worked with for many years.


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## clifffaith

@vacationhopeful said "Mary Ann .. while it has been YEARS since I had to deal with a jerk boss, I still remember his 'attitude' and 'concern' (NOT!). He thought of himself as 'special', insightful and 'teflon coated' from all possible crap. It did NOT take me LONG to move on BUT .... I still HATE all person's named Jonathan and USE that full name."

We had a horrible traumatic year with a tenant named "Debbie" in our guest house. We were prisoners in our own home the last few months during the eviction process; she accused Cliff of sexual harassment, me of identity theft, it went on and on. I cringe every time I hear that name now.


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## WinniWoman

clifffaith said:


> @vacationhopeful said "Mary Ann .. while it has been YEARS since I had to deal with a jerk boss, I still remember his 'attitude' and 'concern' (NOT!). He thought of himself as 'special', insightful and 'teflon coated' from all possible crap. It did NOT take me LONG to move on BUT .... I still HATE all person's named Jonathan and USE that full name."
> 
> We had a horrible traumatic year with a tenant named "Debbie" in our guest house. We were prisoners in our own home the last few months during the eviction process; she accused Cliff of sexual harassment, me of identity theft, it went on and on. I cringe every time I hear that name now.



I suspect this will be the same for me with my boss's name.

PS we were landlords once and we had so many problems with tenants. It was a nightmare- so I understand! We decided we would never be landlords again.


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## pedro47

To the OP, wishing you well,  you need to chill and if you can take some time off alone and unwind for a couple of days.


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## WinniWoman

pedro47 said:


> To the OP, wishing you well,  you need to chill and if you can take some time off alone and unwind for a couple of days.



Thank you. I am actually going on vacation soon and then will be back to work for one more week (if he doesn't let me go before then), so I will be ok. Then I plan on staying home and will regroup and meditate.


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## Bwolf

Good Luck, Mary Ann.


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## Trudyt623

Good luck Mary Ann.


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## bogey21

Not all companies are like many of the ones discussed here.  When I was about to retire I sat down with my replacement and told him I knew he would want to replace my long term "loyalists".  He agreed that was where he would be heading. I was able to convince  him to offer an Early Retirement Window;i.e. enhanced pensions for leaving early to the "class" that included 11 such people.  All 11 took it and walked away with a nice Retirement Party and more money.  What my replacement got out of it was not having the "blow back" that would result from getting rid of these employees one at a time.  He also made a good impression on the remaining employees who felt like their company treats employees fairly.  Everybody won - Me, my successor, the employees who left early and those who remained.  All it took was some ingenuity and a little money...

George


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## DaveNV

bogey21 said:


> Not all companies are like many of the ones discussed here.
> 
> George



You had a rare experience.  I work for a very busy hospital system.  They want tremendous performance, and won't tolerate anything less than the best. I'm all for being the best you can be, but when someone leaves, whether it's voluntarily or via termination, it's almost like a rush to scrub their memory from the ashes.  Nobody is celebrated or missed - they're just...  replaced.  It's pretty heartless.

I've worked there through thick and thin for more than 10 years.  My current plans are to retire next Summer, and I am really looking forward to not being there any more.  I won't regret my time there, but I'm very ready for the next chapter of my life. 

Dave


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## geist1223

The Company from which I retired would always throw a lunch time celebration on your last day. Your choice was the whole company invited (be in the lunch room) or smaller just your Division (in a Conference Room). The employees choice. I chose the smaller option. But my last day of work was going to be a Monday - last day of the year. But the Friday night before my last day Patti and I threw a Retirement Party at our house. Less than a mile from my work place. I handed out invitations to all 700 - 800 employees from the CEO on down. We provided all the food and drinks. We probably had 300 spend some time at the party with maybe 60 to 70 at any one time. Three Vice-Presidents in put in an appearance. Knowing my taste for Good Liquor they each brought a bottle of good stuff.

I do have to admit that my last couple years if I did not get away for at least 2 weeks every 6 months I would probably have strangled someone. It was not the company or the work. I was ready to be done working. I had worked pretty steady since I was 13.


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## WinniWoman

We get nothing unless the other employees themselves make food and bake a cake and bring it in. Another tech (Cat Scan) just left yesterday. Said she had had enough. Doesn't even have another job to go to or health insurance.

We come in with nothing and we leave with nothing. Pathetic. Really pathetic. My hard working and dedicated mom used to tell me not to stress work. "They won't even remember your name," she used to say. I never forgot that.


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## lockewong

mpumilia said:


> I understand. But- I fear they will then not pay me my vacation days and I don't want that to happen. I don't underestimate them. Really I could use the money until I can redo our household budget and see where we stand. We have to stop IRA contributions, cut my husband's 401k contribution to the minimum just to get the employer match, stop all other savings, and cut out some other things, so a bit more cash flow will help.
> 
> It is not really a training I am going to do. More like just an orientation I believe. He said in his letter he wants me to introduce her to a few of our main clients. And an update of things I was working on for her to take over.
> 
> I have already started to tell some of our main clients what has occurred so they now the truth of what went on. That is what I am working on until I go on vacation. LOL!
> 
> Again- who knows with this guy? He might let me go before then anyway. He did say the clinical director was going to work with me during the transition. I have no clue what it all means.
> 
> Today I deleted a lot of stuff from my computer and all my emails, except a few. Lots of stuff went into the shredder- my notes and things. I got an email from the COO thanking me for the letter and saying she was sorry to hear I was leaving and it was good to meet me. yeah- right. I'm not responding.



Dear Mary Ann:

I am very very sorry to hear about this.  Remember before you go on vacation to download all contacts you may want to keep, including clients, on a flash drive that is secure to bring home.  Delete everything as you have already started to do.  Take the time for whatever you need to nourish your spirit and your soul.  Go back to Vermont for the Fall leaves.  Drive Brandon Gap and just sit and soak in what you want.  Finally, as to the "successor" do whatever you feel like you need to do.  Your instincts have been spot-on.  Who knows, karma make work out for you....in a similar situation, management found that removing the people with institutional knowledge and experience and replacing them means stress and uncertainty for the replacements.  I have seen these younger replacements realize that they are over their heads and stress made them leave faster that the company expected.  Leaving a knowledge and experience vacuum forcing management to search unexpectedly for the people with experience that they pushed out the door.


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## lockewong

mpumilia said:


> Lots of people who left here over the years never got one. And let me tell you- LOTS of people have left during the time I have been here.


BE careful of the what you put in the "Exit Interview."  They may just want to document that there is no age-discrimination lawsuit coming.  If you neglect to say something, you are foreclosed, possibly.  If you say too much, they may try to avoid giving a reference if you choose to request one in the future.


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## Jan M.

lockewong said:


> BE careful of the what you put in the "Exit Interview."  They may just want to document that there is no age-discrimination lawsuit coming.  If you neglect to say something, you are foreclosed, possibly.  If you say too much, they may try to avoid giving a reference if you choose to request one in the future.



My husband and I were talking about MaryAnn's situation and agreed that she and the other employees who left for the same reasons should find a lawyer to file a lawsuit. Even if they don't walk away with much of anything out of the lawsuit just standing up and being part of setting legal precedents that would discourage other companies from doing stuff like this in the future would be well worth it.


----------



## VacationForever

Jan M. said:


> My husband and I were talking about MaryAnn's situation and agreed that she and the other employees who left for the same reasons should find a lawyer to file a lawsuit. Even if they don't walk away with much of anything out of the lawsuit just standing up and being part of setting legal precedents that would discourage other companies from doing stuff like this in the future would be well worth it.


The issue is on what basis?  Bad manager? Won't stand up in court.


----------



## Jan M.

VacationForever said:


> The issue is on what basis?  Bad manager? Won't stand up in court.



Have you read all of her posts? For one there was an ongoing campaign of harassment of her and other employees.


----------



## VacationForever

Jan M. said:


> Have you read all of her posts? For one there was an ongoing campaign of harassment of her and other employees.


Of course I have read the entire thread.  What I see is a really bad manager.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

VacationForever said:


> Of course I have read the entire thread.  What I see is a really bad manager.


And one should keep in mind that we are getting only one side of the story.


----------



## WinniWoman

I am thinking of not sending in the Exit Interview form until after I have received all my pay, so it will be a few weeks after my last day.

First thing is- my coworkers do not seem interested in taking legal action (heck- they never even spoke up to HR- reminds me of the "ME TOO" women that only spoke up about sexual harassment like 30 years later)) and they just want to move on and I can't say I blame them. I have done a lot of research on this- not because I would want to sue, but because I would want to collect unemployment. I thought perhaps if I used the age discrimination and constructive discharge wording in my exit interview form that might help me to collect. I was going to send it in on my last day of employment. But then I thought about my final pay- one week of which involves me being paid PTO days that I have earned. I don't want to jeopardize those. But I would have to file for unemployment the first week unemployed, so it's a catch 22.

But it seems that proving age discrimination for one thing is extremely hard because companies can claim to downsize older workers because of pay and not necessarily because of age, even though they can many times go hand in hand. It's a very long process and could take years even if I had lots of proof and coworkers willing to fight.

So- in my case, I was not let go- I resigned. That will not work in my favor and I knew this when I resigned.

Trying to prove harassment is also difficult. In an "at will" employer  state, your boss can be a big jerk, the company can be despicable, but unless he actually does something illegal, it will not be considered harassment. So- he can give you all kinds of grunt work, ignore you, talk down to you, write you up for trivial things, etc. But unless he actually does something illegal- like telling you to your face that you are an old bat, or neglecting to provide safety equipment, stuff like that, you will not win.


----------



## WinniWoman

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> And one should keep in mind that we are getting only one side of the story.



Absolutely right. But there would be no story on the other side because never have I been brought in and accused of underperforming or had a bad attitude or had a client complaint. So what exactly would be their side to the story other than they want a younger, cheaper employee?


----------



## WinniWoman

lockewong said:


> BE careful of the what you put in the "Exit Interview."  They may just want to document that there is no age-discrimination lawsuit coming.  If you neglect to say something, you are foreclosed, possibly.  If you say too much, they may try to avoid giving a reference if you choose to request one in the future.



Yes. I know. Companies only do these exit interviews because of fear of lawsuits or for unemployment claims. If they were really interested in what you had to say, they would ask you while you were still employed- wouldn't they?

I have already filled in the form and will adjust it if I feel I need to when the time comes to send it in. Or maybe I won't send it in at all, but I am thinking I will because I need to do so for closure.

I don't care about a reference from them. I have not been employed by them for long- just 8 months (8 months too long). Remember- this company just took over this year. I can easily get a reference from my old boss and the doctors and even some of my coworkers and clients. In fact- that is what the others who left have done. No one would dare ask idiot boy for a reference. And I am sure he would not write one. He will only verify dates to avoid legal issues.

Not that I care because I will not be working- but, ok. I could change my mind out of desperation at some point.


----------



## WinniWoman

lockewong said:


> Dear Mary Ann:
> 
> I am very very sorry to hear about this.  Remember before you go on vacation to download all contacts you may want to keep, including clients, on a flash drive that is secure to bring home.  Delete everything as you have already started to do.  Take the time for whatever you need to nourish your spirit and your soul.  Go back to Vermont for the Fall leaves.  Drive Brandon Gap and just sit and soak in what you want.  Finally, as to the "successor" do whatever you feel like you need to do.  Your instincts have been spot-on.  Who knows, karma make work out for you....in a similar situation, management found that removing the people with institutional knowledge and experience and replacing them means stress and uncertainty for the replacements.  I have seen these younger replacements realize that they are over their heads and stress made them leave faster that the company expected.  Leaving a knowledge and experience vacuum forcing management to search unexpectedly for the people with experience that they pushed out the door.




Thanks. I had already exchanged our Vermont late fall week for a week in Cape Cod, for this month, so that is where we will be. Funny, I was thinking I really don't feel like going to Cape Cod now and wish we were going back up to Vermont instead. But I am sure once we are there it will be ok. Thankfully, the Fall is beautiful here in the Hudson Valley as well and I will have lots to do at home after my last week of work.

Everyone keeps telling me Karma has a way of working its' way around so I am sure in time that is what will occur.


----------



## WinniWoman

My cousin just called me to tell me about things going on at her employer- again- a new owner/boss- and it ain't good. She has been there for many years - a lovely, sweet person and a hard worker- as are many of the other employees. Heads are rolling, entire departments are walking out. She is just taking one day at a time and doing her job best she can. She said lots of people- much younger than us- like in their 50's are even saying- to start over again at this stage in life is horrible and they do not know what they will do. Having to learn something else, being told you have to start again, be on probation for several months to accumulate vacation time, can't do this, can't do that, have to account to this one and that one, have to prove yourself all over again. Who the heck wants that?

I can relate because I did it myself. Now here I am so close the the finish line and I just don't have anything left in me to have to deal with another crummy job/employer.

Working for companies- big and small- not what it used to be. That's all there is to it.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

mpumilia said:


> She said lots of people- much younger than us- like in their 50's are even saying- to start over again at this stage in life is horrible and they do not know what they will do. Having to learn something else, being told you have to start again, be on probation for several months to accumulate vacation time, can't do this, can't do that, have to account to this one and that one, have to prove yourself all over again. Who the heck wants that?


If that is mindset that a person has, that is the outcome they are pretty much guaranteed to have.

When I was just shy of 52 my boss walked in to my office on Wednesday, told me to take off the rest of the day and all day Thursday, and have all of my stuff out of the office by the end of the day on Friday.  But I wasn't to take anything out of my office until a designated person was there to observe and inspect what I was removing. My boss asked for all of my office keys, and then locked my office door behind us after we left.

This wasn't a surprise.  I knew it was coming for over a year, and I knew it was imminent when I had a performance review and I was being written up for things that happened on projects where I was only peripherally involved.I've gone through the performance documentation process on the other end, and I knew what was going on.  (Though I never saddled people with things that weren't their responsibility.) 

I took the high road - even though I had no obligation to do so, I gave the person doing the checkout a run down on all of the projects I was involved with, what the status was, where the materials were, and what deadlines were pending.  Quite curious the company never though to ask that; they were going to have me walk out the door and leave all of my work hanging, even though there were contractual commitments. If they were going to treat me that way, I wasn't going to sully myself by stooping to their level.

And I certainly wasn't going to throw a pity party for myself.

I started working for myself - set up my own shop doing what I had been doing.  That was 15 years ago, and those 15 years have been the most satisfying and enjoyable years of my career.


----------



## mentalbreak

mpumilia said:


> I have already filled in the form and will adjust it if I feel I need to when the time comes to send it in. Or maybe I won't send it in at all, but I am thinking I will because I need to do so for closure.



“For closure” just mail it to yourself.


----------



## Jan M.

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> If that is mindset that a person has, that is the outcome they are pretty much guaranteed to have.
> 
> When I was just shy of 52 my boss walked in to my office on Wednesday, told me to take off the rest of the day and all day Thursday, and have all of my stuff out of the office by the end of the day on Friday.  But I wasn't to take anything out of my office until a designated person was there to observe and inspect what I was removing. My boss asked for all of my office keys, and then locked my office door behind us after we left.
> 
> This wasn't a surprise.  I knew it was coming for over a year, and I knew it was imminent when I had a performance review and I was being written up for things that happened on projects where I was only peripherally involved.I've gone through the performance documentation process on the other end, and I knew what was going on.  (Though I never saddled people with things that weren't their responsibility.)
> 
> I took the high road - even though I had no obligation to do so, I gave the person doing the checkout a run down on all of the projects I was involved with, what the status was, where the materials were, and what deadlines were pending.  Quite curious the company never though to ask that; they were going to have me walk out the door and leave all of my work hanging, even though there were contractual commitments. If they were going to treat me that way, I wasn't going to sully myself by stooping to their level.
> 
> And I certainly wasn't going to throw a pity party for myself.
> 
> I started working for myself - set up my own shop doing what I had been doing.  That was 15 years ago, and those 15 years have been the most satisfying and enjoyable years of my career.



So often the word comes down from on high that the senior and or higher paid employees have to go. In at will states at least they don't have to make up stuff to justify getting rid of you. All too often the bean counters who make these decisions have no comprehension of how the loss of the individuals being let go will impact the company. Nor do they care. It is all about reducing the salary and benefits expenses. I've yet to see a single one of them let go which is ridiculous because they are usually the most expendable employees in the company. I guess they are just in a position to protect themselves at the expense of the company. Big companies don't seem to see that. 

In many cases, like my husband's and other people we've known in the same situation, the boss and his boss of the person being let go have no say whatsoever about it and can only carry out their orders. A good friend of ours was a boss in this situation and with each person he was forced to let go his workload increased. He was under tremendous strain never knowing if his turn would be next and carrying a ridiculous work load. The company stripped every benefit until there was nothing left but a minimal amount of vacation regardless of how many years he had worked there. He had been with the company 17 years and only had about 5 more years to go until he was eligible for medicare. The pension and retirement benefits were all gone. What he did was extremely specialized and he could have easily found another job because he was that good in his field but it would have meant moving. His wife, my friend, absolutely refused to move even farther away from her mother who was getting quite elderly and in poor health. He ended up being one of the last men standing in his and another department he was forced to take over and made it through til he was eligible for medicare. But it's a wonder the stress didn't kill him.

My husband was very fortunate to be in demand in his field and actually got hired over the phone for his job in Florida because a couple of the VP's knew him and his work. He only needed to work 6 more years but ended up working 7.5. His choice. He is enjoying retirement now. We both say him getting let go from his job up North and being able to move to Florida for the new job before he would have retired from the other company has been wonderful for us. 

When I got moved down here to join him I had planned on going back to work. That didn't happen because we became grandparents for the first time and had three elderly pets who required a lot of care before each one passed. But I did find a little something that I could do from home to keep myself occupied. People who knew me were not impressed with what I said I wanted to do when I got down here and thought I wasn't serious. I said I would be completely happy to work part time at the Publix grocery store three blocks away. I may be good at it but I absolutely did not want the responsibilities of running a business or being anyone's boss ever again. Leaving or losing a job can be the best thing that ever happened to you. Sometimes you just aren't in a place that you can see it at that time it is happening.


----------



## isisdave

VacationForever said:


> If you have not accrued the 6 PTO then it is correct that you won't be paid for them and you are not losing anything there.  PTOs are accrued each month.


I don't see how you "have" these days but they're not "accrued." Usually time off is accrued per pay period, but I have seen a job where it was accrued at x days every y months

This is an entirely separate issue from UI.  In California, you'd file a claim with the Department of Labor, and they'd get an order to pay or appeal. The appeal would probably cost more than the six days, especially with no onsite HR.

Again, the initial UI claim is probably an online thing.  There probably WILL be a hearing, but it's possible they won't show up, again because of no local HR. If you show up loaded with documentation and they don't have good documentation because there's no one local to produce it, you should prevail. Remember how UI funding works: they're not facing outright payment of your claim, just the possibility of a rate raise. But they might be at the max already, and hence have nothing to lose. If witnesses are permitted, bring one to talk about the environment.


----------



## isisdave

Talent312 said:


> "[N]ow there is talk of a big get together for all ex employees! They would need a HUGE place to hold it at because there have to be a couple of hundred of us!"
> -----------------------
> 
> Sounds like you could start a new company to compete with your s2bx-company.
> .



You know, if there's really that many alumni, there has probably been a load of misclassification of employees as contractors, failure to pay owed PTO, etc.  I'd invite a labor lawyer to join you. Heck, I'd invite one to PAY FOR the gathering.


----------



## WinniWoman

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> If that is mindset that a person has, that is the outcome they are pretty much guaranteed to have.
> 
> When I was just shy of 52 my boss walked in to my office on Wednesday, told me to take off the rest of the day and all day Thursday, and have all of my stuff out of the office by the end of the day on Friday.  But I wasn't to take anything out of my office until a designated person was there to observe and inspect what I was removing. My boss asked for all of my office keys, and then locked my office door behind us after we left.
> 
> This wasn't a surprise.  I knew it was coming for over a year, and I knew it was imminent when I had a performance review and I was being written up for things that happened on projects where I was only peripherally involved.I've gone through the performance documentation process on the other end, and I knew what was going on.  (Though I never saddled people with things that weren't their responsibility.)
> 
> I took the high road - even though I had no obligation to do so, I gave the person doing the checkout a run down on all of the projects I was involved with, what the status was, where the materials were, and what deadlines were pending.  Quite curious the company never though to ask that; they were going to have me walk out the door and leave all of my work hanging, even though there were contractual commitments. If they were going to treat me that way, I wasn't going to sully myself by stooping to their level.
> 
> And I certainly wasn't going to throw a pity party for myself.
> 
> I started working for myself - set up my own shop doing what I had been doing.  That was 15 years ago, and those 15 years have been the most satisfying and enjoyable years of my career.




Yes-I get it. I'm certainly am not throwing any pity party. I'm just a little bitter. But-like I said way up in a previous post- there is a big difference between being 62 and 52. I too, started over at 50 and came to this job, so I get it. But now- I just can't anymore.


----------



## Jan M.

VacationForever said:


> Of course I have read the entire thread.  What I see is a really bad manager.



And a really bad company too as they had been made aware by other people. Bad management can make or break a business, especially a small business. It just grinds me to see companies or businesses get away with stuff like this. Most women don't like being confrontational and will put up with far more than they should from bad bosses.

As you well know from personal experience the best way to have control over your work situation is to be your own boss. But not everyone has that option for various reasons.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Jan M. said:


> from personal experience the best way to have control over your work situation is to be your own boss



I am my own boss ... and have been since 1987. 

From my personal experiences, YOU ARE* NEVER *YOUR OWN BOSS!

You must obey all sorts of local, state and federal laws. Like, what location and building you can operate your business (zoning laws), signs you need to identify your business, hours of operations, payments amounts and many benefits you (must or may) pay your employees or contractors (even IF they are independent contractors who are defactor employees who can demand benefits later in life).

As for ONLY using contractors to do all your work ... have a good lawyer for your non-compete agreement(s). And since your lawyer is writing up one for the contractors, get one for your employees to SIGN, too. And your relatives and part-time help. And remember, bragging in to family and friends they WILL ALL think you are making a lot of money. And I am sure, you are clearing a LOT LESS money than they all THINK.

So if you buy a vacation house, LIE and say you rented it. I rented out my modest vacation house to my boss's boss's secretary and got INVESTIGATED by the big boss. He saw her pictures of her vacation (his secretary's stay at my vacation home) and he had been to my personal residence house... and I was 25yo & a single female. He had pulled my company employment folder  ... I got called into his office and ASKED, how I paid for these houses? Told him, I HAD to rent the vacation home to pay for it. And yes, he rented my vacation house a few months later. 

PS I did have a second job. I taught at a community college 1 or 2 courses a semester. It was an approved action by my employer as these schools had a larger evening college attendance than their daytime.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

mpumilia said:


> Absolutely right. But there would be no story on the other side because never have I been brought in and accused of underperforming or had a bad attitude or had a client complaint. So what exactly would be their side to the story other than they want a younger, cheaper employee?


The things that come up are limited only by the imagination.

One of the main things I remember is that when I started doing the documentation process with one employee, the individual began complaining that they were being singled out, that none of the co-workers were being scrutinized to the same level.
After the second go-round on that topic and being a good listener, I realized that what was going on, consciously or unconsciously, was that the employee was trying to avoid acknowledging or addressing the performance issues that I was documenting.  When I stopped being empathetic and insisted we attend to the performance, then I suddenly became a mean, insensitive, horrible person who was just out to screw employees.

I might add that I started a documentation process with all employees as soon as a deficiency item was noted in a performance review. We would  start by talking about the issue, and why I had reached that conclusion. In 80% or more of cases, the employee acknowledged that it was an issue and moved to developing a response program - no further documentation.  In the rest  of the cases, the employee would request more information so I would start more involved documentation, and schedule a mid-year update with the employee. That took care of all but a handful of cases; those were the situations that were difficult.  And they usually were cases where no amount of documentation was adequate; the employee was simply unwilling or unable to recognize the issue, and instead expected that we would adjust the entire work environment to address their particular situation.

So he was certainly correct in his observation that co-workers were not having their work scrutinized to the same level.  That wasn't a question of unfairness

In my years of working in a company, I heard occasional stories from employees about how a certain boss was delighting in making their life miserable by documenting work performance issues.  But I have never met a manager, including those being talked about in those stories, who enjoyed performance documentation.  It's terrible, terrible, terrible work.  It's time-consuming. It takes you away from doing other important things.  It's not fun.  If documentation is done poorly, it's probably because it's such unpleasant work to do.

**************

A mentor one time gave me a wonderful piece of advice.  He said to always be sure that the value I was creating in my job exceeded the salary I was  being paid. If I did that well I would always be able to find a job.  If my employer was so stupid as to fire me, then I should be glad for the opportunity to go to work for a business that is better run than the one I just left.

If you know how you have been creating value and can document it, you have the easiest job interview in the world. I worked with a guy one time what kept a tally of all of the money saving projects he implemented or was involved with.  About July of every year he would schedule a meeting with his boss, where he would show him how in the first six months he had already saved the company more money than they were paying him in his annual salary.

If you don't know how to assess the value of what you are doing, then you need to find out how to do that. And if you can't do that, then you should consider that at any point in time, you are vulnerable to having someone start questioning why you are being paid to do what you are doing.


----------



## WinniWoman

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> The things that come up are limited only by the imagination.
> 
> One of the main things I remember is that when I started doing the documentation process with one employee, the individual began complaining that they were being singled out, that none of the co-workers were being scrutinized to the same level.
> After the second go-round on that topic and being a good listener, I realized that what was going on, consciously or unconsciously, was that the employee was trying to avoid acknowledging or addressing the performance issues that I was documenting.  When I stopped being empathetic and insisted we attend to the performance, then I suddenly became a mean, insensitive, horrible person who was just out to screw employees.
> 
> I might add that I started a documentation process with all employees as soon as a deficiency item was noted in a performance review. We would  start by talking about the issue, and why I had reached that conclusion. In 80% or more of cases, the employee acknowledged that it was an issue and moved to developing a response program - no further documentation.  In the rest  of the cases, the employee would request more information so I would start more involved documentation, and schedule a mid-year update with the employee. That took care of all but a handful of cases; those were the situations that were difficult.  And they usually were cases where no amount of documentation was adequate; the employee was simply unwilling or unable to recognize the issue, and instead expected that we would adjust the entire work environment to address their particular situation.
> 
> So he was certainly correct in his observation that co-workers were not having their work scrutinized to the same level.  That wasn't a question of unfairness
> 
> In my years of working in a company, I heard occasional stories from employees about how a certain boss was delighting in making their life miserable by documenting work performance issues.  But I have never met a manager, including those being talked about in those stories, who enjoyed performance documentation.  It's terrible, terrible, terrible work.  It's time-consuming. It takes you away from doing other important things.  It's not fun.  If documentation is done poorly, it's probably because it's such unpleasant work to do.
> 
> **************
> 
> A mentor one time gave me a wonderful piece of advice.  He said to always be sure that the value I was creating in my job exceeded the salary I was  being paid. If I did that well I would always be able to find a job.  If my employer was so stupid as to fire me, then I should be glad for the opportunity to go to work for a business that is better run than the one I just left.
> 
> If you know how you have been creating value and can document it, you have the easiest job interview in the world. I worked with a guy one time what kept a tally of all of the money saving projects he implemented or was involved with.  About July of every year he would schedule a meeting with his boss, where he would show him how in the first six months he had already saved the company more money than they were paying him in his annual salary.
> 
> If you don't know how to assess the value of what you are doing, then you need to find out how to do that. And if you can't do that, then you should consider that at any point in time, you are vulnerable to having someone start questioning why you are being paid to do what you are doing.




Excellent! All good points. But not applicable in my situation. I have not been written up for poor performance, etc. And- I am not looking for work, so I don't need to evaluate anything.

I was just in our other center. One of our really good techs- very well-liked- was there. Said she hates the place. They made her run over to this site after she was scheduled for the other- to do two different types of tests. Patients are waiting and not happy. They won't hire another tech- want her to do it all. Everything is a crisis. She can't wait to get the hell out either.


----------



## Elan

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> If you don't know how to assess the value of what you are doing, then you need to find out how to do that. And if you can't do that, then you should consider that at any point in time, you are vulnerable to having someone start questioning why you are being paid to do what you are doing.



  That might be true at a smaller company.  It's very difficult to do when working for a Fortune 200 level company that is multi-faceted.  From R&D through production, testing, QA, marketing, sales, etc.  And talk about a mindless, unproductive exercise...


----------



## am1

Glad I walked away from working for others after 2 weeks at my first job out of grad school.


----------



## WinniWoman

This is a two bit small company where a local hospital has about a 10% stake in it- down from a larger stake over the years- but probably not for long. Prior to this new company taking over- we were started and owned by a local group of radiologists in a joint venture with the hospital. The doctors now have sold it to this small "regional" company (they have 9 centers) that is only interested in acquiring more radiology centers. Probably wants to cash out some day and could care less about anything else.


----------



## VacationForever

Elan said:


> That might be true at a smaller company.  It's very difficult to do when working for a Fortune 200 level company that is multi-faceted.  From R&D through production, testing, QA, marketing, sales, etc.  And talk about a mindless, unproductive exercise...


Whenever friends asked me what I did at the Fortune XX company, I said all I did was answer emails, go to meetings, occasionally made a Powerpoint for presentation, met with staff and wrote reviews about my staff.  Very unproductive.


----------



## Elan

VacationForever said:


> Whenever friends asked me what I did at the Fortune XX company, I said all I did was answer emails, go to meetings, occasionally made a Powerpoint for a presentation, met with staff and wrote reviews about my staff.  Very unproductive.


  It's no so much that, but in my case I write and run code to find & fix issues pre-production.  I definitely find things that, if they hit production, would potentially cost the company millions of dollars.  But I can't say, unequivocally, that one of our other processes wouldn't have found the problem, at some point.  Now, I could start tracking this stuff, and ultimately do a statistical analysis to try to justify my existence, but that would be extremely tedious, time-consuming and unproductive -- taking oodles of time away from my real job -- problem solving.  Suffice it to say that management has enough faith in the work I do to deem it worthwhile.  And, that's the way it should be.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Most bosses like to control people and have 'worshipping' flunkies. Everything going WRONG is someone else's fault or their task plan was NOT followed.

I worked for a new manager who ONLY hired Ivy League graduates .. either at the BS/BA level or graduate school. My brother was  Princeton graduate and I graduated from a Southern finishing school.  Guess I had some experiences with _THAT attitude_ before hand. After his 6th NEW (Ivy) hire, I got _greatly_ annoyed ... found _his_ boss at his favorite watering hole (a bar), got a drink brought by the boss (to set the mood - causal) and clearly stated my position ... "If your BOY Jonathan hires ONE more IVY League Graduate, I AM GONNA SUE YOU ALL!". And downed my drink. The big boss said, "he is not doing that!". I then asked him to NAME just one (exempt) person he had hired, who was NOT from an Ivy League school. He had to THINK for a few_ long_ moments .. and they said. "Tyler". My instant reply was "When did Cornell drop out of the Ivy League?" Curse words followed, pickup his money and left the bar. The next work day, the big boss (U of PA graduate) walked by my cubical, knodded to me and entered my boss's walled office (Harvard), shut the door to discuss HIS new floor hiring plan (of no new hires). The floor boss again looked and knodded to me as he walked by my cubical again .. back to his office down the hallway.

I got a new internal company job about 6+ months later via applying without ANY support from anyone in my group or management chain. My floor boss was on that committee and was stunned when a different peer area manager ASKED to 'take' me from his group for a new section in this other group. This new project was critical for the company's direction ... with broad exposure. Bye, Bye .. Jonathan! But the manager who ran the new project .. he was not up to the job. And less than 2 years later, I went back fulltime for my MBA ... 90% tuition & books covered and 50% pay plus medical paid by my employer in full. After graduating with NO DEBT, I was earning TWICE as much from a BIGGER company as a contract consultant for 3.5 years (blue oval logo). With that contract job ending in late 1987 ..... been self employed for 31 years now.

I had invested in real estate when the market was DOWN during the years I did computer systems consulting work ... mainly to help my income tax situation. I had brought 3 houses while working for the first company (my little starter home, my vacation home and then a NEWER & bigger place to live). I traded the 3rd house to a neighbor for his OLD (and half the size of my "NEWER & bigger") and ugly home. I stored most of my possession in the free-standing garage, rented the 2bdr house to a tenant and moved 120 miles away to attend graduate school ... renting a apartment above a law office. My youngest sister and I graduated her university TOGETHER! My parents JUST BEAMED with pride during graduation ... other parents could be heard whispering ... THEY HAD TWO AT LEHIGH!!! It was expensive .. but I resisted screaming ... I PAID MY OWN WAY!

Neither my first company (intergrated oil company) nor the blue oval company EXIST ANYMORE (like on the NYSE or any other exchange board). As for myself ... still working. But can spend this morning getting my 93yo aunt settled into her hospital bed (fall at her apartment on Sunday), read TUG, eat lunch with a my contractor and deposit checks into the bank.

*NOW >>>>* What other trouble can I get into today? It is 1:14PM ... 1 hour and 48 minutes left in my contractor's workday. 10 minutes to get to his work site. Pick up ANY supply list he might need filled? Or go check on my 2 sister's wandering around from California and Maryland?

*SISTER TIME WINS!!!!*


----------



## bogey21

vacationhopeful said:


> I worked for a new manager who ONLY hired Ivy League graduates .. either at the BS/BA level or graduate school.



I was in a similar situation when I was the Executive VP of my Bank.  The President had a similar requirement;i.e. hire only those with Graduate Degrees.  I wanted to hire a Credit Officer I knew from back when I worked in another city who had the street smarts and experience for the job.  The only problem was he only had a HS Diploma and 3 years working in a steel mill in Granite City, IL before getting a chance at a small Bank in St Louis.  The way I solved the problem was to wait until my boss, my Bank's President was on a one week out of town business trip.  While he was gone I hired my guy.  When my boss got back he never asked about my hire's credentials and I don't know if he ever found out what I did.  Later he got fired and I was named President...

George


----------



## easyrider

For the most part of my life I had the best boss ever. That guy always knows what I'm thinking and about to do. More often than not, we are on the same page regarding many issues. Its been great working for him.

Did I mention I was self employed. 

Bill


----------



## Talent312

easyrider said:


> For the most part of my life I had the best boss ever... Did I mention I was self employed.



I have a terrible boss, even though I'm retired.
She makes me help with meals, laundry, take out the garbage and mow the weeds...
usually when I'm doing something important like watching Property Brothers on HGTV.
.


----------



## MOXJO7282

VacationForever said:


> Whenever friends asked me what I did at the Fortune XX company, I said all I did was answer emails, go to meetings, occasionally made a Powerpoint for presentation, met with staff and wrote reviews about my staff.  Very unproductive.


I've worked for a Fortune 500 for 25 years, the last 13 with one and i can say there was a time when most depts were bloated with some workers who did very little but that is no longer the case with the advent of technology that can track your every move so now big corporations are very lean and extremely productive. This is so the big fat cats can make even more of course.


----------



## WinniWoman

I made it through this short week. He asked me into his office to briefly meet with him and the new clinical director who is butting into the marketing area - smh... Anyway- said he just wanted to go over a list of where I am at before the new woman starts. I had everything handled, of course. I had to ask him when the new person starts (though I already knew) and then he tells me that he is hiring a second marketing person! Why tell me that? Why would I care?  I asked if that person was starting the same week as the other and he said he didn't know- depended on the budget. I suspect it is the guy who is a 1099 who already works for the company for some of the other sites they have. IF he is even telling the truth, which I doubt.

Then he tells me he lost the list of my contacts I sent to him back in the spring and if I still had it and could send it to him. I told him I did not. He looked annoyed and indicated he couldn't believe i didn't save it. I told him I had no reason to save it after I sent it to him- that I eventually delete things I don't need.  I told him I would type him up a new list- that it was not a big deal. Told him what I do in my job in innate. I know them all off the top of my head.

Today I sent them to him and he said he appreciated it. Of course,  I should have told him where to go and not sent the list. But I am trying to remain professional and I want to get my vacation pay and get that last week of work in when I get back from the vacation. The paychecks will stop after that, which is freaking me out.

Was his birthday today and supposedly an email went out to "some" employees to contribute to a cake- not me, of course- but also some others did not get the email either. At lunch, his "harem" was singing happy birthday to him as me and a few of my other colleagues looked on in silence. I wanted to vomit. LOL!

Neither he or the clinical director or any of his minions have not even mentioned my departure to me in terms of what my plans are or anything. Zippo. All are very cold towards me. They could care less. And neither has the ex-CEO of our company (that sold to this new company) whom I still see on occasion and worked for these past 13 years- shows what he is made of. I am sure he must know I am leaving. Unbelievable....

The techs are all complaining about getting numerous emails with threats of disciplinary action for this or that. The techs and nurses, who I am close with - many have been there a while like me- they keep asking what kind of wine I drink so I know they are planning amongst themselves something for when I leave.

I have been visiting all my clients/doctors offices and saying goodbye. I am telling them exactly what happened but also I am telling them our doctors and our technicians that are there are a good crew - that it is just management that has been an issue- but I wanted them to know what transpired- to hear it from me. Some cried. I cried. Lots of hugging. Many were so surprised to hear the news. It all feels surreal. Best part of my job was some of these wonderful people I have met along the way.

I still haven't wrapped my head around this whole thing. I always thought I would be ecstatic to quit work but because of the circumstances I don't feel that way. I can't seem to unwind from it.

I am off to the Cape in another day, so I am hoping to get my mind off of it,  and then I have the one more week left at work. Will be interesting.

What a year it has been.


----------



## VacationForever

mpumilia said:


> I made it through this short week. He asked me into his office to briefly meet with him and the new clinical director who is butting into the marketing area - smh... Anyway- said he just wanted to go over a list of where I am at before the new woman starts. I had everything handled, of course. I had to ask him when the new person starts (though I already knew) and then he tells me that he is hiring a second marketing person! Why tell me that? Why would I care?  I asked if that person was starting the same week as the other and he said he didn't know- depended on the budget. I suspect it is the guy who is a 1099 who already works for the company for some of the other sites they have. IF he is even telling the truth, which I doubt.
> 
> Then he tells me he lost the list of my contacts I sent to him back in the spring and if I still had it and could send it to him. I told him I did not. He looked annoyed and indicated he couldn't believe i didn't save it. I told him I had no reason to save it after I sent it to him- that I eventually delete things I don't need.  I told him I would type him up a new list- that it was not a big deal. Told him what I do in my job in innate. I know them all off the top of my head.
> 
> Today I sent them to him and he said he appreciated it. Of course,  I should have told him where to go and not sent the list. But I am trying to remain professional and I want to get my vacation pay and get that last week of work in when I get back from the vacation. The paychecks will stop after that, which is freaking me out.
> 
> Was his birthday today and supposedly an email went out to "some" employees to contribute to a cake- not me, of course- but also some others did not get the email either. At lunch, his "harem" was singing happy birthday to him as me and a few of my other colleagues looked on in silence. I wanted to vomit. LOL!
> 
> Neither he or the clinical director or any of his minions have not even mentioned my departure to me in terms of what my plans are or anything. Zippo. All are very cold towards me. They could care less. And neither has the ex-CEO of our company (that sold to this new company) whom I still see on occasion and worked for these past 13 years- shows what he is made of. I am sure he must know I am leaving. Unbelievable....
> 
> The techs are all complaining about getting numerous emails with threats of disciplinary action for this or that. The techs and nurses, who I am close with - many have been there a while like me- they keep asking what kind of wine I drink so I know they are planning amongst themselves something for when I leave.
> 
> I have been visiting all my clients/doctors offices and saying goodbye. I am telling them exactly what happened but also I am telling them our doctors and our technicians that are there are a good crew - that it is just management that has been an issue- but I wanted them to know what transpired- to hear it from me. Some cried. I cried. Lots of hugging. Many were so surprised to hear the news. It all feels surreal. Best part of my job was some of these wonderful people I have met along the way.
> 
> I still haven't wrapped my head around this whole thing. I always thought I would be ecstatic to quit work but because of the circumstances I don't feel that way. I can't seem to unwind from it.
> 
> I am off to the Cape in another day, so I am hoping to get my mind off of it,  and then I have the one more week left there. Will be interesting.
> 
> What a year it has been.


Hugs, MaryAnn.  Enjoy your vacation.  You know what they say, it will all be alright one way or another.  

My late MIL and FIL used to tell stories and there is one that stands out... She said there were times they thought they were tight on their budget and had no idea how they were going to make ends meet for that month but they always turned out fine.


----------



## DaveNV

mpumilia said:


> What a year it has been.



Mary Ann, I can't "Like" your post, because it is filled with such stress, anger, and disappointment.  I fully understand how you feel.  I suspect that you, like myself, try to find the good in people, and we're dumbfounded when certain people come along who seem to have no "good" in them.  I'll never understand how those people sleep at night.

When this is all finished, and you've had time to decompress and gain a new perspective, I sincerely hope you can find some happiness in your day-to-day life.  I know you've been trying to work things out, and to find the logic in all of this.  I think sometimes some things just can't be figured out.  They just "are."  And sometimes, through no fault of our own, to be frank, life just sucks.

You are a good person, with a good heart.  Try and remember that.  Don't lose your sense of self and humor in the throes of this exhausting mess.  It'll be over with very soon, and you'll be free to decide what is the right choice for YOU to make.

Wishing you only good things, going forward.  Hang in there.  You're almost done. 

Dave


----------



## WinniWoman

Thanks Dave and everyone! I have so appreciated all your input and kind and supportive words!

 I have never not worked and although I never liked working I am so used to having that income coming in. I am also now starting to feel old (doesn't help that everyone is automatically assuming I am retiring without me even mentioning that word) and even a bit lost and like I was tossed aside, which, of course, I was. Makes me feel like a nobody.

I am also getting anxious to redo our house budget and take care of business and so on so I can see where we will stand financially and get settled into my new norm. I am very OCD and a planner- not used to just winging things or being spontaneous. I am such a worrier it isn't even funny. But the important stuff will have to wait until after this vacation. Of course, now I am worried about spending money on vacation. My mind never stops...

I need to repeat some positive affirmations each day. Alexa- open daily affirmations....

PS Right- Dave. To some questions, there are no answers. I am hoping what is feeling like a loss right now will feel like a win in another couple of months.


----------



## bluehende

Go and have fun.  The little bit of difference in cash you can save on vacation is a drop in the bucket.  Relax and I will bet when you get into that budget later you will be pleasantly surprised.  I know when I retired I was bit surprised how much money you saved by not having work expenses and having more time to take care of things yourself.


----------



## DaveNV

I forgot to add, maybe it's time to explore ways you can make money on your own.  Not so much "self employed" as "self-styled consultant."  You have tremendous job skills.  There must be a market out there for that, and for what you know.  Could you assist your former customers with streamlining their businesses to more efficiently use those services?  Could you market yourself to other businesses like theirs, or similar ones, and in effect, go into direct competition with your old employer?  Wouldn't THAT be a kick in the pants? 

Dave


----------



## pedro47

To the OP, good luck in the future and please  stay focus. Relax and keep your head up and do not look back at this experience .


----------



## Panina

mpumilia said:


> I made it through this short week. He asked me into his office to briefly meet with him and the new clinical director who is butting into the marketing area - smh... Anyway- said he just wanted to go over a list of where I am at before the new woman starts. I had everything handled, of course. I had to ask him when the new person starts (though I already knew) and then he tells me that he is hiring a second marketing person! Why tell me that? Why would I care?  I asked if that person was starting the same week as the other and he said he didn't know- depended on the budget. I suspect it is the guy who is a 1099 who already works for the company for some of the other sites they have. IF he is even telling the truth, which I doubt.
> 
> Then he tells me he lost the list of my contacts I sent to him back in the spring and if I still had it and could send it to him. I told him I did not. He looked annoyed and indicated he couldn't believe i didn't save it. I told him I had no reason to save it after I sent it to him- that I eventually delete things I don't need.  I told him I would type him up a new list- that it was not a big deal. Told him what I do in my job in innate. I know them all off the top of my head.
> 
> Today I sent them to him and he said he appreciated it. Of course,  I should have told him where to go and not sent the list. But I am trying to remain professional and I want to get my vacation pay and get that last week of work in when I get back from the vacation. The paychecks will stop after that, which is freaking me out.
> 
> Was his birthday today and supposedly an email went out to "some" employees to contribute to a cake- not me, of course- but also some others did not get the email either. At lunch, his "harem" was singing happy birthday to him as me and a few of my other colleagues looked on in silence. I wanted to vomit. LOL!
> 
> Neither he or the clinical director or any of his minions have not even mentioned my departure to me in terms of what my plans are or anything. Zippo. All are very cold towards me. They could care less. And neither has the ex-CEO of our company (that sold to this new company) whom I still see on occasion and worked for these past 13 years- shows what he is made of. I am sure he must know I am leaving. Unbelievable....
> 
> The techs are all complaining about getting numerous emails with threats of disciplinary action for this or that. The techs and nurses, who I am close with - many have been there a while like me- they keep asking what kind of wine I drink so I know they are planning amongst themselves something for when I leave.
> 
> I have been visiting all my clients/doctors offices and saying goodbye. I am telling them exactly what happened but also I am telling them our doctors and our technicians that are there are a good crew - that it is just management that has been an issue- but I wanted them to know what transpired- to hear it from me. Some cried. I cried. Lots of hugging. Many were so surprised to hear the news. It all feels surreal. Best part of my job was some of these wonderful people I have met along the way.
> 
> I still haven't wrapped my head around this whole thing. I always thought I would be ecstatic to quit work but because of the circumstances I don't feel that way. I can't seem to unwind from it.
> 
> I am off to the Cape in another day, so I am hoping to get my mind off of it,  and then I have the one more week left at work. Will be interesting.
> 
> What a year it has been.


What you feel is normal being you have been on the edge of leaving for months.  I believe once a few weeks go by you will love early retirement (I did) and you will look and feel 10 years younger.  Stress can cause so much conflict within ourselves. I have learned to live on less when I had to, that will be much less stressful then for you then staying at the job. It is hard to let go when you are still there. Soon it will be over and I truly believe when this door closes for you  another one will open for you that will be better then you ever expected. Hugs.


----------



## lockewong

What a year it has been.

I wanted to give you big hugs and support like Dave NW.  Believe in yourself.  I can surmise from all the posts on this thread that some of us have experienced a bit of your trauma.  Go to your week on Cape Cod and heal yourself.  Do not think, obsess, or doubt about your situation.  There is always a reason.  I agree with Panina...  know you have the support and the emotional backing of TUG.  You have done nothing WRONG.  And, as you have stated, you have tried to be professional.  Do not second guess anything.  Please.


----------



## Patri

Panina said:


> What you feel is normal being you have been on the edge of leaving for months.  I believe once a few weeks go by you will love early retirement (I did) and you will look and feel 10 years younger.


The difference is when you choose to retire, and when it's forced on you. It's been two years since I was let go (almost blindsided) so I can relate to MaryAnn. I work two days a week now and it is not enough. Too much free time on my hands, and long evenings (since DH is in assisted living). I am looking for another PT job for two days.


----------



## Talent312

I retired at age 62 (DW already retired) after I determined that our income-stream would be enuff to provide the same lifestyle as we had when I was working.

For some peep, their work is their identity. For me, there was a period of adjustment, but after a few months, I did not miss it at all. When asked about retirement now, I say, "Every day is Saturday."

.


----------



## bogey21

Talent312 said:


> For me, there was a period of adjustment, but after a few months, I did not miss it at all.



I was a workaholic and wondered if I would have trouble adjusting to retirement.  Amazingly it took me all of 24 hours...

George


----------



## WinniWoman

Patri said:


> The difference is when you choose to retire, and when it's forced on you. It's been two years since I was let go (almost blindsided) so I can relate to MaryAnn. I work two days a week now and it is not enough. Too much free time on my hands, and long evenings (since DH is in assisted living). I am looking for another PT job for two days.




That's it! If I was retiring on my own terms when I wanted I would be ecstatic. I will miss being around some people, because it is very lonely where I live and I like a little bit of social interaction. But I will come up with something later on. Just not now. Maybe volunteer- don't know.

Starting over in a job- my time being owned by a company- doesn't appeal to me at this stage to say the least. My last day at work will be the last day of summer and my new life starts the first day of Fall! I like the idea of that!

I briefly looked at job ads. After reading some the descriptions,  all I could say was- uh.....no. LOL!

Sorry about your husband. Must be so very hard on you. Hope you find that second job you want and it helps to fill your time and spirit.


----------



## bizaro86

Maybe try some freelance type work? Some can be done remotely, via sites like Upwork. Your marketing experience might lend itself to copywriting or similar type work, and you could do that from any location, including a remote one. 

Just an idea, and I wish you the best of luck on your transition. I was laid off a few years ago and its a big adjustment. I hope you are treated fairly regarding your final pay, etc.


----------



## vacationhopeful

It will take TIME .. time to adjust to a new routine, new activities, make new friends, etc.

When I was 'RIF'ed (reduction in force), I TRADED my house for the house across my street (from almost new BIG 4 bdr with central air, etc) to a 60yo bunglow with NOTHING (no DW, no A/C, 1 bath and UGLY pink metal cabinets in the kitchen). I went 100+ miles away to obtain an MBA. I rented the ugly house and STORED many of my worldly possessions in the separate garage.

Take any course that appeals to you ... even non-credit (like painting or cooking) or to become a travel agent, etc. CONSIDER putting the house up for sale, take in a short term exchange student (did that several summers when I could NOT travel ... 3-4 weeks with each French HS student staying in my home). I had no kids or husband.


----------



## WinniWoman

bizaro86 said:


> Maybe try some freelance type work? Some can be done remotely, via sites like Upwork. Your marketing experience might lend itself to copywriting or similar type work, and you could do that from any location, including a remote one.
> 
> Just an idea, and I wish you the best of luck on your transition. I was laid off a few years ago and its a big adjustment. I hope you are treated fairly regarding your final pay, etc.




I like the idea of copywriting.  One of my favorite courses in journalism school. Thanks. I will check out Upwork at some point.


----------



## WinniWoman

vacationhopeful said:


> It will take TIME .. time to adjust to a new routine, new activities, make new friends, etc.
> 
> When I was 'RIF'ed (reduction in force), I TRADED my house for the house across my street (from almost new BIG 4 bdr with central air, etc) to a 60yo bunglow with NOTHING (no DW, no A/C, 1 bath and UGLY pink metal cabinets in the kitchen). I went 100+ miles away to obtain an MBA. I rented the ugly house and STORED many of my worldly possessions in the separate garage.
> 
> Take any course that appeals to you ... even non-credit (like painting or cooking) or to become a travel agent, etc. CONSIDER putting the house up for sale, take in a short term exchange student (did that several summers when I could NOT travel ... 3-4 weeks with each French HS student staying in my home). I had no kids or husband.



When hubby retires the house will go up for sale most likely. Looking at the prices of homes or condos in NH, we might just end up with a bungalow. LOL!

But we are definitely too private to take anyone into our home. That won't happen.

I like the idea of taking a fun class- if the high school, which is just 6 miles away, offers one because otherwise I would have to drive far to the college and I do not drive at night as it is. Don't see well at night. You have to remember- I am in the boon docks here. This is not a major metropolitan area with tons of cultural activities within walking distance or with mass transit. This is why I would love to move to a college town in a rural area- like where my son lives- have a little of both.

But I am doing nothing first off. Have to clear my head and will have plenty of things to take care of this fall. Before you know it it will be the holidays and then the first of the new year will be around the corner. I always have a list. I am a person who never had time to work anyway- amazing how we all do everything with work taking such a huge block of time out of our days. Now I can get up at a normal time instead of 3:30 am. I will be able to exercise at a reasonable time- like in the daylight! What a concept! LOL! I won't have to precook all our meals for the week on Sunday morning, or pre-make my salad for the week for my work lunches. I can't wait to throw out that darn lunch box! Ha! Ha! I can now make our food each day. Food shop when I want. Clean the house when I want. Everything will be so different and I bet the weeks will go faster than they did when I was in the work drudgery.

PS Does anyone use travel agents anymore?


----------



## VacationForever

mpumilia said:


> PS Does anyone use travel agents anymore?



In the cruise industry especially, people use travel agents to get commission passed back to them.  For example, a cruise line will pass on 15% of cruise price, excluding port fees and taxes, to the travel agent.  Most large travel agencies like Costco and Crucon pass about 8 to 10% of that commission back in the form of a cash card (Costco) or additional perks (Crucon) like free drinks and onboard credits. 

If you are a small independent travel agent, you will get the 15% from cruiselines but beware that savvy cruisers will ask for something back like onboard credits ($).  You are essentially competing with the big boys/girls like Costco and Crucon.  Then there are some not so savvy cruisers who need handholding and may need recommendations etc to book cruises for them.  It is always a balance of service and how much you are willing to pass your commission back to the travelers.

For land tours, travel agents get about 10% back from companies like Trafalgar and Collette.

I use travel agents only for kickbacks as I do my own research.  So yes, there is a demand for travel agents.  But the competition is also significant.​


----------



## pedro47

The first positive thing after you leave that job will be; is when you go to your doctor for the first time and your blood pressure is normal 120/80). That was my first positive experience after I retired.

Please relax and chill and enjoy


----------



## silentg

Enjoy your week on the Cape. Put the job out of your mind as much as possible.
I’m fully retired and DH should be retiring early next year.
We have vacations planned before and after he retires. Making the most of our timeshares and TUG has been a big influence on me and how we travel.
You have received great advice from TUG, but follow your own instincts.
I believe in Karma and vindication, it may take a while but when it happens it’s a nice feeling
Safe Travels,
Silentg


----------



## artringwald

mpumilia said:


> I like the idea of taking a fun class- if the high school, which is just 6 miles away, offers one because otherwise I would have to drive far to the college and I do not drive at night as it is. Don't see well at night. You have to remember- I am in the boon docks here. This is not a major metropolitan area with tons of cultural activities within walking distance or with mass transit. This is why I would love to move to a college town in a rural area- like where my son lives- have a little of both.


When you're ready for it, there are many free courses available at Coursera and EdX in a wide variety of subjects. You can drop out at anytime if you don't like it and you don't have to do the homework unless you want a completion certificate. To get credit for homework assignments you have to grade the homework of other students. Most the courses are taught by colleges professors from major universities. The one I enjoyed the most was History of Rock. The most interesting one to me was Financial Markets because it was taught by a Robert Shiller, a Nobel prize winner and he invited many well know people as guest lecturers.


----------



## bluehende

artringwald said:


> When you're ready for it, there are many free courses available at Coursera and EdX in a wide variety of subjects. You can drop out at anytime if you don't like it and you don't have to do the homework unless you want a completion certificate. To get credit for homework assignments you have to grade the homework of other students. Most the courses are taught by colleges professors from major universities. The one I enjoyed the most was History of Rock. The most interesting one to me was Financial Markets because it was taught by a Robert Shiller, a Nobel prize winner and he invited many well know people as guest lecturers.



The financial markets course looks interesting.  Was it a basic course or more involved?


----------



## artringwald

bluehende said:


> The financial markets course looks interesting.  Was it a basic course or more involved?


I don't have any background in economics, and it was very easy to understand.


----------



## WinniWoman

pedro47 said:


> The first positive thing after you leave that job will be; is when you go to your doctor for the first time and your blood pressure is normal 120/80). That was my first positive experience after I retired.
> 
> Please relax and chill and enjoy



Thanks. I actually have really good blood pressure- amazing, I know.


----------



## pedro47

mpumilia, you must be a very strong individual and that is all I am going say.

Edit, mpumilia you are one strong individual. Wishing you nothing but happiness in the future.


----------



## Bwolf

Pardon me if this isn't exactly correct.


----------



## Egret1986

Bwolf said:


> View attachment 8182
> 
> Pardon me if this isn't exactly correct.


!


Awe, that's awesome!  Happy Retirement, Mary Ann!  I see sunshine on the horizon!!!!


----------



## WinniWoman

Bwolf said:


> View attachment 8182
> 
> Pardon me if this isn't exactly correct.




Love the cake! Thanks!!


----------



## joestein

Bwolf said:


> View attachment 8182
> 
> Pardon me if this isn't exactly correct.




Congrats and enjoy the rest of your life.  You dont need that stress anymore.


----------



## DaveNV

Mary Ann, I've been following this thread, and comparing your experiences to mine.  I have a different situation, but it's no less stressful.  My Manager is someone who has an agenda of "me first" for the favorite-children he manages, while the rest of us are left to prove every day why we deserve to be employed here.  It's a very long, old story, and details are irrelevant.  Suffice to say, I've been here a long time, nothing surprises me any more, and I've always kept one eye on the day I can quietly retire and walk away.

Yesterday late afternoon an email circulated from the Department Manager, (my manager's manager), announcing yet another rearrangement of job duties and who-reports-to-whom within the department.  Yet another upper-level manager will be recruited, (how many do they need?), and the department restructured for about the fifth time in the last three years.  My team wasn't named as one that will be changing, but I just sat back and tried to take it in, thinking, "Here we go again!"  It always feels a bit like shuffling a deck of cards.

And then a thought occurred to me that made me laugh right out loud:  323 days.  That's how long it is until I can retire.  And suddenly I realized there IS a light at the end of the tunnel.  This never-ending rollercoaster of working here will finally come to an end, and they can recruit someone to replace me.  Or not.  For some reason, I just don't care. 

Be well, make peace with your life, and enjoy yourself.  Your health and well being are the most important things to manage.  The rest will sort itself out.

Dave


----------



## "Roger"

Best wishes, Dave.  

Five reorganizations in three years?/! Typically reorganizations are just the shuffling of cards with no real changes. Likewise upper management often sees how it could use more staffing while they consider those below them are simply not working hard enough (with no first hand experience to back this up).

Knowing that the end is insight will sure help you manage a difficult situation. Happy trails ...


----------



## VacationForever

"Roger" said:


> Best wishes, Dave.
> 
> Five reorganizations in three years?/! Typically reorganizations are just the shuffling of cards with no real changes. Likewise upper management often sees how it could use more staffing while they consider those below them are simply not working hard enough (with no first hand experience to back this up).
> 
> Knowing that the end is insight will sure help you manage a difficult situation. Happy trails ...


Hey, I worked in a Fortune XXX company for 13 years and reorganizations happened every 3 to 6 months within every business group, division, at every level below.  If your group does not reorganize frequently, the senior manager must not be good or creative.  I really believe that in every large Fortune XXX business, the same can be done with 50% of the people.


----------



## DaveNV

"Roger" said:


> Best wishes, Dave.
> 
> Five reorganizations in three years?/! Typically reorganizations are just the shuffling of cards with no real changes. Likewise upper management often sees how it could use more staffing while they consider those below them are simply not working hard enough (with no first hand experience to back this up).
> 
> Knowing that the end is insight will sure help you manage a difficult situation. Happy trails ...



Thanks.  It's not awful, just an ongoing PITA.  There have been changes, some greater than others, and I'll admit, some of it was for the better.  But in this case it's "this team now reports to this person, and that team reports to that person."  No changes in job duties of those team members, just for the figurehead they report to.  It seems like a lot of noise to make the organization seem more "mainstream" than it really is.  The term "balance of power" comes to mind.  They did a huge reduction in force last Winter, with lots of layoffs, then they turned around and hired back a bunch of the people they'd laid off, when they realized they'd cut a bit too deeply.  I just kept my head down and my keyboard busy.  Move along, nothing to see here. 

As the old joke goes, "The only reason I hang around here is to see what happens next!"  

Dave


----------



## Luanne

I worked for the phone company.  Over my 30 years of employment we changed names, ownership and went through numerous reorganizations.  For years I was doing basically the same job, but in Operations, Billing and Marketing.  By the time I retired I was sick of the whole thing and oh so ready to leave.  By the end my boss was in Atlanta (I never even met her) and most of my co-workers were either in a different location or worked from home most of the time.


----------



## Egret1986

DaveNW said:


> And then a thought occurred to me that made me laugh right out loud:  323 days.  That's how long it is until I can retire.  And suddenly I realized there IS a light at the end of the tunnel.  This never-ending rollercoaster of working here will finally come to an end, and they can recruit someone to replace me.  Or not.  For some reason, I just don't care.
> 
> Be well, make peace with your life, and enjoy yourself.  Your health and well being are the most important things to manage.  The rest will sort itself out.
> 
> Dave



My husband and I find ourselves in the same place with our employment.  I've been with mine almost 30 years and he's been with his 20 years. I'm 60 and he's 58.  We've started the countdown (not days yet, but within sight).  It's a shame that things degrade so much that by the time you're nearing the end and moving onto the next stage that you're counting down the days (months, years ).  We are not counting down because we anticipate being free "to do what we want, to a degree, unfettered), but because we're so over the BS going on.  Our employers no longer remotely resemble their former selves.  

*The Times They Are A-Changin’*
WRITTEN BY: BOB DYLAN

Yes, health and well being are the most important things to manage now.  

"There are numerous emotional and physical disorders that have been linked to *stress *including depression, anxiety, heart attacks, stroke, hypertension, immune system disturbances that increase susceptibility to infections, a host of viral linked disorders ranging from the common cold and herpes to AIDS and certain cancers, as well as autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and multiple sclerosis. "

Stress is unavoidable, but you've just got to do your best to try and minimize it.   MaryAnn has been through major stress.  My husband and I are fortunate not to be dealing with the issues that MaryAnn has gone through.  But, who knows, what the future holds.  

I'm hopeful MaryAnn is having a calm and relaxing vacation, and is anticipating her "new life".


----------



## WinniWoman

DaveNW said:


> Mary Ann, I've been following this thread, and comparing your experiences to mine.  I have a different situation, but it's no less stressful.  My Manager is someone who has an agenda of "me first" for the favorite-children he manages, while the rest of us are left to prove every day why we deserve to be employed here.  It's a very long, old story, and details are irrelevant.  Suffice to say, I've been here a long time, nothing surprises me any more, and I've always kept one eye on the day I can quietly retire and walk away.
> 
> Yesterday late afternoon an email circulated from the Department Manager, (my manager's manager), announcing yet another rearrangement of job duties and who-reports-to-whom within the department.  Yet another upper-level manager will be recruited, (how many do they need?), and the department restructured for about the fifth time in the last three years.  My team wasn't named as one that will be changing, but I just sat back and tried to take it in, thinking, "Here we go again!"  It always feels a bit like shuffling a deck of cards.
> 
> And then a thought occurred to me that made me laugh right out loud:  323 days.  That's how long it is until I can retire.  And suddenly I realized there IS a light at the end of the tunnel.  This never-ending rollercoaster of working here will finally come to an end, and they can recruit someone to replace me.  Or not.  For some reason, I just don't care.
> 
> Be well, make peace with your life, and enjoy yourself.  Your health and well being are the most important things to manage.  The rest will sort itself out.
> 
> Dave




That is incredible. Re-organizing to me means the big shots are trying to "justify their own jobs". Make it look like they are doing something constructive. When the regime changed at my job one of my clients said to me that with all the changes they will make, the end result will be the same. He is so right. He, like me, has seen it all before.

So it's great that you are able to sit back and laugh! I love that!  Less than a year from now and you're out! That's what you need- that light to get through one day at a time.  

Right- so sit back and see what happens next! Great entertainment! I, too, will be curious to see what goes on with my soon to be ex-employer one year from now. 

Best of luck getting through your last year, Dave!


----------



## WinniWoman

DaveNW said:


> Thanks.  It's not awful, just an ongoing PITA.  There have been changes, some greater than others, and I'll admit, some of it was for the better.  But in this case it's "this team now reports to this person, and that team reports to that person."  No changes in job duties of those team members, just for the figurehead they report to.  It seems like a lot of noise to make the organization seem more "mainstream" than it really is.  The term "balance of power" comes to mind.  They did a huge reduction in force last Winter, with lots of layoffs, then they turned around and hired back a bunch of the people they'd laid off, when they realized they'd cut a bit too deeply.  I just kept my head down and my keyboard busy.  Move along, nothing to see here.
> 
> As the old joke goes, "The only reason I hang around here is to see what happens next!"
> 
> Dave



This is like what the new company at my job has been doing. Coming up with a new name for procedures we already do. Marketing "spin" on everything to make them seem high tech.. The new boss has been hiring back some people that were let go before he took over- just as per diems or part-time. My guess is they won't stay long or they will be let go once again at some point.


----------



## WinniWoman

Egret1986 said:


> My husband and I find ourselves in the same place with our employment.  I've been with mine almost 30 years and he's been with his 20 years. I'm 60 and he's 58.  We've started the countdown (not days yet, but within sight).  It's a shame that things degrade so much that by the time you're nearing the end and moving onto the next stage that you're counting down the days (months, years ).  We are not counting down because we anticipate being free "to do what we want, to a degree, unfettered), but because we're so over the BS going on.  Our employers no longer remotely resemble their former selves.
> 
> *The Times They Are A-Changin’*
> WRITTEN BY: BOB DYLAN
> 
> Yes, health and well being are the most important things to manage now.
> 
> "There are numerous emotional and physical disorders that have been linked to *stress *including depression, anxiety, heart attacks, stroke, hypertension, immune system disturbances that increase susceptibility to infections, a host of viral linked disorders ranging from the common cold and herpes to AIDS and certain cancers, as well as autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and multiple sclerosis. "
> 
> Stress is unavoidable, but you've just got to do your best to try and minimize it.   MaryAnn has been through major stress.  My husband and I are fortunate not to be dealing with the issues that MaryAnn has gone through.  But, who knows, what the future holds.
> 
> I'm hopeful MaryAnn is having a calm and relaxing vacation, and is anticipating her "new life".




Thanks. When we first arrived on the Cape on Saturday I was actually very depressed and the gloomy weather didn't help. The entire time we have been here- no sun. It was freezing, too. On top of that, everywhere we have gone on the Cape the people working in the tourist attractions were all retired men and women- older than me, though- and they were talking about how great retirement was- but they liked working these jobs because they were fun. You would think this would be a positive thing to hear, but I actually feel so unsettled and not ready to embrace the whole thing yet. I can't really describe it. I guess it is an anxious feeling.

Then our ferry to Martha's Vineyard was cancelled due to rough water and wind and all I kept hearing on the news was about this Florence Hurricane and I wanted to just go home. Didn't help with the stress.

However- things got much better- we were able to rebook the Martha's Vineyard Ferry and tour for today. And the weather took a total turn to warm and humid. But still cloudy and foggy. 

We also had another day of no rain- temps in the 60's, but windy- and were able to drive and explore the entire National Seashore. We got out just before rain yesterday to visit the town of Sandwich and the Heritage Gardens and Museums. 

Tomorrow we go to Nantucket. So-  all in all I am feeling much better now. I do dread going back to the job for my final week but it will provide good closure for me I think after this vacation.

You and your husband have been at your jobs way too long! When can you retire? Do it sooner rather than later if you can afford it. Enough of all the BS!


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## DaveNV

mpumilia said:


> That is incredible. Re-organizing to me means the big shots are trying to "justify their own jobs". Make it look like they are doing something constructive. When the regime changed at my job one of my clients said to me that with all the changes they will make, the end result will be the same. He is so right. He, like me, has seen it all before.
> 
> So it's great that you are able to sit back and laugh! I love that!  Less than a year from now and you're out! That's what you need- that light to get through one day at a time.
> 
> Right- so sit back and see what happens next! Great entertainment! I, too, will be curious to see what goes on with my soon to be ex-employer one year from now.
> 
> Best of luck getting through your last year, Dave!



Thanks!  I want it to be as painless and uneventful as possible.  Unfortunately, they're ramping up for another major software upgrade, so there will be systems testing, module creation, and lots of "insert buzzword here" activities to do so the new program will work.  And my job is right in the middle of that.  

Dave


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## Egret1986

mpumilia said:


> You and your husband have been at your jobs way too long! When can you retire? Do it sooner rather than later if you can afford it. Enough of all the BS!



I have to make it through the end of next year in order to have my health benefits carry-over into retirement.  I have no choice but to make it to that milestone.  The next milestone would be to the end of the following year (2020) in order to have my home paid off.  I'll be 62 then and will be ready to say .  The plan is for DH to work until 62 (four years).   However, I have told him not to wait for 62 if things continue on the current path.  We're cutting back on some things and socking away as much money as possible.  Maybe in two years we can both pack it in.




mpumilia said:


> So-  all in all I am feeling much better now. I do dread going back to the job for my final week but it will provide good closure for me I think after this vacation.



I have to believe that a year from now, things will be so much better for you, that you'll get in the groove of retirement and iron out the details of your "new life."     Go back, get that closure, and walk out with a smile on your face and no regrets.  Your pals on TUG are pulling for ya!


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## uop1497

Good luck with your coming up retirement. Years later when look back, you will think you make a good decision.
I did not have the time to read all the posts, just hope with many years you work for this company, I hope it will give you an option to get your insurance coverage with good rate so that you will have health coverage until you reaches 65.

For me, sometime when I was forced to make decision in a bad situation, I always unsure if the decision I make at that moment will be good or not good and how it change my life.  However, when I overcome it, a few years later when I look back , most of the time, it turn out a very best decision and my life is changed for better . I hope that will happen in your case too.

Take care and look forward to your retirement  bright days ahead. Now you have all the time to do whatever you want to do but has not had the time due to busy working.


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## SandyPGravel

Hey, your thread should hit 20,000 views by the time you get through your last week.  (One little ray of sunshine in that last dreaded week)


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## WinniWoman

uop1497 said:


> Good luck with your coming up retirement. Years later when look back, you will think you make a good decision.
> I did not have the time to read all the posts, just hope with many years you work for this company, I hope it will give you an option to get your insurance coverage with good rate so that you will have health coverage until you reaches 65.
> 
> For me, sometime when I was forced to make decision in a bad situation, I always unsure if the decision I make at that moment will be good or not good and how it change my life.  However, when I overcome it, a few years later when I look back , most of the time, it turn out a very best decision and my life is changed for better . I hope that will happen in your case too.
> 
> Take care and look forward to your retirement  bright days ahead. Now you have all the time to do whatever you want to do but has not had the time due to busy working.



I leave my job with zippo. Besides the loss of income, the possibility of me not having health insurance at some point when my husband is no longer working is what really worries me.


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## am1

Have you looked into other options for what worst case senario?


mpumilia said:


> I leave my job with zippo. Besides the loss of income, the possibility of me not having health insurance at some point when my husband is no longer working is what really worries me.


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## vacationhopeful

My carpet store owner lost his health insurance for himself and wife when the ACA hit .. and most individual policies were cancelled as "Those policies did NOT met the required coverage of the ACA". (As did my policy and almost everyone else who was selfemployed or with a small business).

His wife got a 40 hour a week job for a different business ... while still doing their store's bookkeeping and accounting work in evenings.

Her job: Janitor at their local church .. 40 hour work week. BUT good medical coverage via the church's district affilation. She runs the vaccum, cleans the toilets, dusts the pews, washes the windows and waters the plants ... physical activities that she lost some weight also.


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## VacationForever

One of the "jobs" I think may work for folks who would like some income is be a "chat" agent with a company like Amazon.  It is likely to be a minimum wage job but you get to work out of your home and you set the hours of your availability.


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## vacationhopeful

Amazon is building a MILLION PLUS square foot warehouse just a mile down the road from me. It is BIG ... making a 4 lane road out front, 2 new traffic lights got INSTALLED this week, etc. Don't know/can't see if they are going to start using the OLD railroad line onto the property which would RUN behind the building they built.

I am waiting to see IF they are going to dredge the creek behind the building which flows into the Delaware River (a section SOUTH of Phildelphia city .. so there is large ship & dregging on that part of the Delaware). 

During WWII, the Navy hid many of their ships on this waterway .. it was NOT part of the Philadelphia Navy Yard nor near the New York Ship Yard in Camden City across from Philadelphia .. but the creek was deep enough and accessible enough to 'hide' Navy ocean going ships of that era (not small boats). And all the creeks had 'lift' bridges to RAISE the roadway DECK straight UP .. and the bridge on THAT creek between the new Amazon site and the Delaware River SOUTH of Philadelphia ... just got a major repair in the last 4 months.

And I cursed THAT 8 mile detour between my job's daily work sites EVERY DAY months.

PS The town where Amazon built their shiney new 1MM sq ft FULLFILLMENT Center ... the NJ Senate President lives there. The town across the LIFT BRIDGE they repaired recently ... the NJ Asembly Deputy Leader lives there. I would BET you can see the lift bridge in operation from the rooftop of the Amazon building on a FLOGGY DAY WITH your naked eyes (no spy glasses needed).


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## WinniWoman

VacationForever said:


> One of the "jobs" I think may work for folks who would like some income is be a "chat" agent with a company like Amazon.  It is likely to be a minimum wage job but you get to work out of your home and you set the hours of your availability.



I saw a job on Indeed for a Visitor Center assistant at West Point. The job would be great if it were per diem or flexible part time with benefits,  but they are looking for 3 full time people and they need to be available 3 weekends per month and the drive there is treacherous in winter and far from my home in any event. I am sure the salary is not that great and the gas used to get there would not be worth it is my guess.  Then they have another one available just for weekends and all Federal holidays. But again, not worth the drive.

My dream retirement job would be to work in a VT Welcome Center and if you have ever been in one you might realize why. Plus I am like an ambassador for the state with my membership in the VT 251 club. Only problem is- I don't live there.

There is a tourist attraction close to my home and I have to look into it more to see how you get a job there at the visitor center. It is a natural area that used to be run by the Nature Conservancy but now has been turned over to the state. It would be tough to drive up there in winter (mountains)- but I am not even sure if it is open in the winter. And I am not sure there would be health benefits.

My issue with any job is going to involve freedom.


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## Luanne

mpumilia said:


> My issue with any job is going to involve freedom.



You're already thinking like a retired person.


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## VacationForever

mpumilia said:


> My issue with any job is going to involve freedom.



I am sure you already know that it is a balance. If you need some income, then you will need to sacrifice a little bit of freedom for a little bit of income.  Hence part time and flexi work may be what you need.  But if you don't need the money, then enjoy all the freedom and time!


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## "Roger"

vacationhopeful said:


> ...the rooftop of the Amazon building on a FLOGGY DAY WITH your naked eyes (no spy glasses needed).


Definition... when the management at Amazon makes a spectacle of workers who failed to make their quotas by flogging them on the rooftop for other workers to witness. No spy glasses needed.


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## Fredflintstone

In my opinion it is very sad that seniors in the US work mainly so they can get health care. It seems the income is secondary. 

I remember one evening I went to a wal mart in Las Vegas and talked to and was served by a senior cashier working the night shift. When she told me that working nights “ain’t no fun” at 81 years young, I asked her why she needed to do that. She said so she could have health benefits.   

 Seniors deserve better. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## WalnutBaron

May I offer some unsolicited advice? Remember, it's perhaps only worth what you paid for it--which is not much.

Mary Ann, you may recall that I advised you a few weeks ago to take enough time after your completion of your current job to let yourself heal, rest, and renew. The temptation, of course, is going to be to find a new job ASAP--but I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you do that. You've stated on this thread that, though money will be tight on just your husband's income, you guys plan to tighten your belts a bit to make things work. That's great. If you are confident you can follow through on that without panicking and just jumping into the next job, here are some steps to consider:


Take at least two months, if not all the way to the end of the year to rest and re-charge. If you give yourself this amount of time, you'll be amazed at how your perspective will change. You're battling depression right now because a) you've been beaten down for years with the tyrant of a boss you've had; b) you're dealing with a lot of unknowns about what your future holds; and c) the unknowns create anxiety and worry--both of which are natural, but neither of which is productive or helpful. Remember that you and your husband spent a lot of time discussing your resignation before you took that momentous step, and you did so by presumably talking about your household budget and how you could make things work without your income, at least for a given period of time. Since that's the case, you're in the process of executing the plan--so rest in that, and remember that worry adds nothing to the quality or enjoyment of your life.
Once you've been able to process the reality that you don't have to go back to your old job anymore and you've begun to embrace this new chapter in your life, take time to lay out your priorities in whatever the next job needs to be. There are so many considerations--but they need to be prioritized in writing instead of just a jumble in your head. For example, is replacement of income more important than quality of life? If so, it means you'll be more willing to drive a longer distance or give up more of your new-found freedom to accommodate a new employer's work schedule. If not, it means you're going to insist on a job that's closer to home and that is more flexible. Of course, it would be awesome if you can get those attributes PLUS a good salary, but planning for and knowing your priorities ahead of time will help you in which jobs to apply for and which jobs to avoid when the time comes to start looking again.
Have you ever made a T-chart before? The T-chart has your pluses on one side of a page and your minuses on the other side. Fill one out during your down time after you complete your current job, and give yourself time to articulate what kinds of things you love doing, what kinds of things you like doing, and what kinds of things you don't like doing. Remember that all jobs require us at some point to do things we'd rather not do. Just make sure that--once all elements of the job are weighed in the balance--there are many more pluses than minuses.
You say you're worried about lack of health insurance once your husband retires. Remember that Medicare kicks in when you and he turn 65. It's a fantastic benefit--and you've been paying into it through payroll deductions for your entire career. You have a gap of about three years until you get there, so just make sure your hubby continues working for at least that period of time to bridge you over until you--and he--qualify.
To recap, the first thing you need to do is rest. Take deep breaths and long walks.

Second, whenever you feel yourself start to worry, just let it go. The worrying will shorten your life and could even serve to embitter you. Don't let that happen. Stay positive and enjoy your new-found freedom.

Third, write yourself a job description that includes the things you want in a job and the things you're willing to sacrifice in order to get those things you want. There are always trade-offs, so determine what those trade-offs are before you apply for another job, not after.

Finally, embrace the moment. Don't let fear paralyze you or embitter you. See this new chapter in your life as a chance to get things done around the house that you haven't had the time or energy for in the past. Take the opportunity to soak in the beautiful fall colors of upstate New York in a way you haven't been able to before because you were too busy. Let the healing seep into your soul. You'll not only be happier, but I also think you'll interview better a few months from now than you would a few weeks from now. You'll be more open to new possibilities, and you'll probably be more employable as well.


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## WinniWoman

WalnutBaron said:


> May I offer some unsolicited advice? Remember, it's perhaps only worth what you paid for it--which is not much.
> 
> Mary Ann, you may recall that I advised you a few weeks ago to take enough time after your completion of your current job to let yourself heal, rest, and renew. The temptation, of course, is going to be to find a new job ASAP--but I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you do that. You've stated on this thread that, though money will be tight on just your husband's income, you guys plan to tighten your belts a bit to make things work. That's great. If you are confident you can follow through on that without panicking and just jumping into the next job, here are some steps to consider:
> 
> 
> Take at least two months, if not all the way to the end of the year to rest and re-charge. If you give yourself this amount of time, you'll be amazed at how your perspective will change. You're battling depression right now because a) you've been beaten down for years with the tyrant of a boss you've had; b) you're dealing with a lot of unknowns about what your future holds; and c) the unknowns create anxiety and worry--both of which are natural, but neither of which is productive or helpful. Remember that you and your husband spent a lot of time discussing your resignation before you took that momentous step, and you did so by presumably talking about your household budget and how you could make things work without your income, at least for a given period of time. Since that's the case, you're in the process of executing the plan--so rest in that, and remember that worry adds nothing to the quality or enjoyment of your life.
> Once you've been able to process the reality that you don't have to go back to your old job anymore and you've begun to embrace this new chapter in your life, take time to lay out your priorities in whatever the next job needs to be. There are so many considerations--but they need to be prioritized in writing instead of just a jumble in your head. For example, is replacement of income more important than quality of life? If so, it means you'll be more willing to drive a longer distance or give up more of your new-found freedom to accommodate a new employer's work schedule. If not, it means you're going to insist on a job that's closer to home and that is more flexible. Of course, it would be awesome if you can get those attributes PLUS a good salary, but planning for and knowing your priorities ahead of time will help you in which jobs to apply for and which jobs to avoid when the time comes to start looking again.
> Have you ever made a T-chart before? The T-chart has your pluses on one side of a page and your minuses on the other side. Fill one out during your down time after you complete your current job, and give yourself time to articulate what kinds of things you love doing, what kinds of things you like doing, and what kinds of things you don't like doing. Remember that all jobs require us at some point to do things we'd rather not do. Just make sure that--once all elements of the job are weighed in the balance--there are many more pluses than minuses.
> You say you're worried about lack of health insurance once your husband retires. Remember that Medicare kicks in when you and he turn 65. It's a fantastic benefit--and you've been paying into it through payroll deductions for your entire career. You have a gap of about three years until you get there, so just make sure your hubby continues working for at least that period of time to bridge you over until you--and he--qualify.
> To recap, the first thing you need to do is rest. Take deep breaths and long walks.
> 
> Second, whenever you feel yourself start to worry, just let it go. The worrying will shorten your life and could even serve to embitter you. Don't let that happen. Stay positive and enjoy your new-found freedom.
> 
> Third, write yourself a job description that includes the things you want in a job and the things you're willing to sacrifice in order to get those things you want. There are always trade-offs, so determine what those trade-offs are before you apply for another job, not after.
> 
> Finally, embrace the moment. Don't let fear paralyze you or embitter you. See this new chapter in your life as a chance to get things done around the house that you haven't had the time or energy for in the past. Take the opportunity to soak in the beautiful fall colors of upstate New York in a way you haven't been able to before because you were too busy. Let the healing seep into your soul. You'll not only be happier, but I also think you'll interview better a few months from now than you would a few weeks from now. You'll be more open to new possibilities, and you'll probably be more employable as well.



Thank you! I love the way you put things into words!

It is true- my mind is always racing ahead. Been my state of being all my life. I am definitely going to regroup. Get things in order at home first in terms of our budget and finances. Meditate. And get through the winter.

I do usually write up those "pros and cons" lists when I need to make difficult decisions because my mind goes through a ton of mental gymnastics. I have always said this would be my last job, but you know how that goes. Life has different plans sometimes. I do know for sure if I had to go back to work full time it would kill me. Which is why I haven't applied to a few jobs that I saw that I am qualified for since this whole incident began 7 months ago. Not that employers want to hire a 62 year old anyway. The thought of going on interviews makes me ill also. I don't even have a resume-on purpose! LOL!

I held onto this job for so long because there aren't a lot of well paying jobs in my area and because of my age. The one I am losing is based 45 minutes away plus I drove all day all over the county- about 100 miles per day- in and out of the car at least 20 times per day. But at least I was out of the office and had some freedom and space and got to talk with people. I have to work with a sense of freedom. Responsibility, yes. But without that freedom and autonomy, it's a no go. And- the atmosphere has to be pleasant and social. Or- I would work at home on my own- best option since I don't want to deal with driving in bad weather (or at night) anymore and also I have put a ton of mileage on my car and I don't want to have to put more on it. Been through like 3 cars on this job.  And have a generous time off policy. No starting over again with one or two weeks PTO time. Not many jobs with health benefits around like that. Full or part time.

As for my husband, he wanted to retire at age 66- his full retirement age, and that will leave a gap of one year for me until I can get Medicare. I don't have the heart to ask him to work until age 67. He commutes every day and he is so tired at night. But- his employer has also been downsizing and our big fear is he could lose his job before he turns 66, leaving a gap of several years for me to need the insurance.

BUT- like you said- right now I have to live in the moment- at least learn to as it is foreign to me.

We will be checking out of The Cove at Yarmouth tomorrow after a nice week's vacation on the Cape. It's raining today- it's been gloomy all week. Going to the gym and probably the indoor pool today. Later, will pack up and just chill. Have the weekend at home to get ready mentally for my final week on the job, which should be interesting as my replacement starts also. The whole thing feels surreal.


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## Icc5

First off, I haven't read all the responses or back and fourths.  I did see what went on with my 56 year old brother and have a few suggestions that you decide to follow or not:
If you get another job do it while you still have this one.  Easier to get a job while working because a person's attitude shows up in an interview.
Get counseling.  You might feel fine,bitter,etc. with what is happening but I'm pretty sure there is much confusion.  People are trained to help with the transition and know how to help.  It is definitely worth the expense to have piece of mind.
Please don't trick yourselve into thinking no big deal.
Bart


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## Patri

Icc5 said:


> If you get another job do it while you still have this one.  Easier to get a job while working because a person's attitude shows up in an interview.


She's not going to be able to get a job this week. Then she is done. And maybe her attitude this week wouldn't be so great.


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## heathpack

My first job out of my residency was a terrible experience, part of that was them and part of it was me honestly.  I could have made it work if I was experienced in the ways of the world like I am now but at the time, I didn’t quite have the skill set to make that happen.

So because I hated job #1, I made the classic mistake and just took any job #2 to get out of job #1.  Made a lot of mistakes in what I agreed to and three years later: burnout.  I quit and quite rightly just made no plan for job #3 before I did.  I would have been unable to make a good decision had I tried to jump immediately into job #3.

We tightened our belts, lived on the cheap.  I explored other career options (which really made no sense given that I’d put so much effort/time/money into the training/education I had), took time to think, assessed my life etc.  I put all kind of options on the table.  Then when I felt like I could make good decisions, I started looking for a new job.  That’s a big deal in my profession, it means relocating usually.  But a year is what it took for me, I couldn’t really have made good decisions right after I left the traumatic job.  (It was traumatic in a different way, just too many hours spent working and too little free time, no one was abusive to me.)

My input is that it will take time.  You might find a way to just stay retired.  You might look for something with healthcare benefits.  But don’t jump out of the frying pan and into the fire, give yourself the opportunity to make good decisions.


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## "Roger"

I don't know how you get these jobs, but some places have people work out of their home for their phone centers. For returning shoes to Zappos, my wife talked to someone living in Salt Lake City. Tauck (a very expensive tour company) is located in Connecticut, but when we signing up for a trip, the agent we talked to was living and working in Florida.


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## WinniWoman

Well, it's done. I made it. Yesterday was my last day in the hell hole. I spent the week training my replacement and saying goodbye to my coworkers and clients. I have known my replacement all these 13 years, and we always liked each other, so it was ok, though awkward. We actually had a little fun. She told me she she understands about the Idiot Boss as she has experienced some of it in the past herself. She actually became emotionally upset a few times when she saw the reactions of our clients to my departure. (she said she was sad herself) (She even relayed to the idiot boss that the clients were very upset that I was leaving.) She is keeping her other job as well- which is flexible- so as not to put all her eggs in one basket- just in case. I wish her luck. She will need it.

I only had a small interaction with him all week. Yesterday he and his minions, as well as the long time CEO I worked with and was friendly with all these years, never said one word to me upon my departure. Very telling.

My other coworkers however, were so great. I will really miss them all. Cakes were baked and I came with home with more wine and other alcoholic beverages than even I can drink in a year. LOL! Do they know me or what? Ha! Ha!

I jokingly told them they were actually the ones that need the  "luck" since they are still working there and maybe I should leave a few bottles there for them as they could use some alcohol to get through their work days. Ha! Ha!

Even the woman who was fired in the beginning came to visit me. She walked right into the facility and into the lunchroom and sat down with us all! Good for her! We have been so supportive with each other all these months through texts and private messaging on Facebook.

I left in tears, A woman came out of another doctor's office in the building and asked me if i was ok. I think she thought I was a patient who might have gotten bad news at the radiology center. LOL!

One of the docs at the center spoke with me at length before I left. She had spoken with another doc I am friendly with there and knows everything I went through. She was shocked that I was leaving, and especially because she knew of the relationship that me and Napoleon had before he became boss.

She said he is going to bring the whole place down and she said she hoped it would. She said she was upset with what they did to the previous boss- that she felt despite what anyone might have thought about him- that he, too, did not deserve being fired. She cannot fathom why the current guy is in the position he is in. She asked me to add a few things to my exit interview form, which I did when I got home. She wished me well and offered to give me any recommendations I might want in the future- IF I even need them.

I completed the Exit Interview form last evening and sent it to 3 key people (but not to the Hatchet Man). It was professional but I did not hold back. CC'd to an atty just for the heck of it.  Monday I am going to apply for unemployment anyway also. If I can appeal the denial on the phone or online, I will also do that, but I don't know that I could go in person as it would be two counties down and plus I would not be able to handle it emotionally.

So begins another chapter in my life. I want to thank all the Tuggers here for their input and support. You all have been so great! It meant so much to me and was also good therapy!

First day of Fall and first day of freedom! And the weather came in right on que to match!

I looked at my calendar for next week and told my husband I was booked with things I need to do already. I always said I didn't have time to work!


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## vacationhopeful

Mary Ann ...

When I was 'downsized' out of my job of 9 years ... months before being qualified for a pension, I took the serverance package of 'any college for 90% tuition and 50% salary for 1 year'. I choose college as my place for my readjustment and refocusing my life and attitude. 

Do NOT just stay home! Take any academic college course ... even a junior college class but a career-type class which can be used in a resume as 'updating' your background. You will met NEW people, learn something new and get out of the house. Yes, you need DOWN time to 'recover' .. but that does NOT mean, sitting home and eating chocolate!

How do you want to come across in your NEXT dream job interview? That question as to "I see a gap in employment. What were you doing?" .. how can you truly answer it in a POSTIVE WAY?


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## Sugarcubesea

Fredflintstone said:


> In my opinion it is very sad that seniors in the US work mainly so they can get health care. It seems the income is secondary.
> 
> I remember one evening I went to a wal mart in Las Vegas and talked to and was served by a senior cashier working the night shift. When she told me that working nights “ain’t no fun” at 81 years young, I asked her why she needed to do that. She said so she could have health benefits.
> 
> Seniors deserve better.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


This will be my situation.  I will have saved enough to retire at age 62 but due to the high cost of medical I need to stay employed until 65.  

One of my employees was going to retire this year at age 62 but when he priced out healthcare for him and his wife till age 65, he realized he would be spending another $168K till he can get medicare and came back and asked if I submitted his paperwork to corporate in Japan and I had purposefully held onto it as I knew he would need to still work and so glad I did... I feel fortunate to work for a Japanese company that values the mature worker.


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## DaveNV

Mary Ann, I am proud of you. As the saying goes, “Integrity is doing the right thing, even if no one is watching.”

Good luck managing your retirement. 

Dave


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## WalnutBaron

Congratulations, Mary Ann, on finishing strong. You fulfilled your obligation and commitment to the company, and I am sure it was gratifying to have the chance to see and say goodbye to your clients and your co-workers. Through all of this, you've had the courage to share with us your hopes, fears, anger, and concerns--and because so many of us can relate to aspects of what you've gone through, we felt like we were riding this difficult road with you because you had invited us along.

I honestly believe the quality of your life will begin to improve from this point forward--maybe not financially, but in terms of how your time is spent, how you develop and nurture friendships and relationships, how your life slows down enough to enjoy and embrace your surroundings.

And if you're not sure how you'll make new friends, think of this: you already have, right here on TUG! And we're grateful for your candor and honesty and warmheartedness.


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## Talent312

When my DW retired a couple of years ago, she moped about for a few months, sat on the couch, eating bon-bons. Then she got into a couple of bridge groups and church groups. She's now juggling 3 bridge groups and is a local + district treasurer for a national church group (UMW). She's super busy and we have to plan our TS travel around her schedule.  IOW... Don't get too active, either.
----------------------------

My post-retirement health insurance is deducted from my pension, but when I go on Medicare (~18 months from now), it'll free up ~$600/month (net).  Time to buy some toys!
.
.


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## rapmarks

I am so busy retired that often get exhausted


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## Panina

Congratulations, time to celebrate and embrace your freedom.  I believe you will adjust just fine and will find your groove. Keep doing what your heart and gut tells you.  Life will take you where you need to go.


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## lockewong

Congratulations on being professional and candid up to your last day.  That your coworkers celebrated and baked cakes to acknowledge your work relationships combined with the clients demonstrated chagrin validates everything you told us about your work and your commitment to this company.  Hold your head up high.  Yes, you can be emotional because you cared and the clients, doctors and coworkers knew you cared. Enjoy your retirement and your freedom.  It is all downhill from here.  You will land on your feet and it will be for the best.


----------



## bluehende

Don't quit the story now.  We need to know the next chapter.  I will bet the next chapter is much happier than the last one.


----------



## WinniWoman

vacationhopeful said:


> Mary Ann ...
> 
> When I was 'downsized' out of my job of 9 years ... months before being qualified for a pension, I took the serverance package of 'any college for 90% tuition and 50% salary for 1 year'. I choose college as my place for my readjustment and refocusing my life and attitude.
> 
> Do NOT just stay home! Take any academic college course ... even a junior college class but a career-type class which can be used in a resume as 'updating' your background. You will met NEW people, learn something new and get out of the house. Yes, you need DOWN time to 'recover' .. but that does NOT mean, sitting home and eating chocolate!
> 
> How do you want to come across in your NEXT dream job interview? That question as to "I see a gap in employment. What were you doing?" .. how can you truly answer it in a POSTIVE WAY?




What's wrong with staying home and eating chocolate? I'm in my dream job right now!


----------



## MabelP

rapmarks said:


> I am so busy retired that often get exhausted


Isn't that the truth?!!!


----------



## VacationForever

Yes, please continue to post update post last day.  You have carried yourself professionally through your last day, showing that you are a bigger person than Napolean.


----------



## Fredflintstone

mpumilia said:


> What's wrong with staying home and eating chocolate? I'm in my dream job right now!



I have run into many people who left their jobs for a variety of reasons and retired. The responses from them retiring overall followed a common theme:

1. In your 50s focus in being debt free including the house. That way, you don’t need a ton of money to retire as you don’t need to service debt.
2. After leaving the job, the stress rolls off the body like olive oil to French fries. No more fighting traffic, no more stressing out enroute on the politics of the day, no more being tired getting up early and working late.
3. Your costs go way down. Taxes are reduced, your car lasts longer as it’s not miled out getting to and from work etc.
4. Many people I know focus in their investments. They have time to research good investment ideas thus increasing their income and net worth.
5. Many see life for what it is. Enjoyable and free of stress.
6. Many retired people are busy doing what they love like volunteering, going for walks, etc.

So, enjoy. Recalibrate your life and finally be free!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Egret1986

mpumilia said:


> What's wrong with staying home and eating chocolate? I'm in my dream job right now!



Atta, girl, Mary Ann!  Keep the laughter and humor in your life.  

You've finally arrived.


----------



## winger

Talent312 said:


> some





mpumilia said:


> What's wrong with staying home and eating chocolate?


 Eat the fat free ones


----------



## Glynda

Wishing you the best in this next chapter!  You handled your exit with dignity!


----------



## uop1497

I am reading your post in a location far from home.  If you feel sad to leave your job, just say Good bye to only the people who you think are your friends at work. Just do not pay any attention to your terrible boss if he is around in your view.

 I like to ask if you do not mind (and if you want to share).  since your boss is treat people around him badly thru these years he work for the company. How come he is still has powerful and gets his way . Why no one can not do anything about his behavior.  No HR personnel around to stop his bad behavior.  Did Anyone at the company to make complaint to HR. If so, I can not believe HR does not done any thing to find out the truth.

I know your seek legal advise before. Does it any help at all. Can they help get you any compensate package even you choose to reside on your own.

Sorry, if you have address similar question already. I does not have time to read all the post here.

I hope you will find something to do soon,   And I wish you the very best . Good luck and take care .


----------



## Patri

I am so happy for you. You will figure out the future. Just enjoy, and yes, we want occasional updates. This has been our soap opera for months. It can't just end. You have excellent ratings!


----------



## WinniWoman

uop1497 said:


> I am reading your post in a location far from home.  If you feel sad to leave your job, just say Good bye to only the people who you think are your friends at work. Just do not pay any attention to your terrible boss if he is around in your view.
> 
> I like to ask if you do not mind (and if you want to share).  since your boss is treat people around him badly thru these years he work for the company. How come he is still has powerful and gets his way . Why no one can not do anything about his behavior.  No HR personnel around to stop his bad behavior.  Did Anyone at the company to make complaint to HR. If so, I can not believe HR does not done any thing to find out the truth.
> 
> I know your seek legal advise before. Does it any help at all. Can they help get you any compensate package even you choose to reside on your own.
> 
> Sorry, if you have address similar question already. I does not have time to read all the post here.
> 
> I hope you will find something to do soon,   And I wish you the very best . Good luck and take care .



Thanks.

Well- this guy has only been the boss since February. He used to run another facility and the new company that took us over closed it, had the boss at the time fired, and put him in ours. He is in this position because he is friends with the previous CEO. He has no college degree and is essentially a painter (as in walls and ceilings) and has even been in jail in the past believe it or not.

He is a sociopath and a narcissist and there is too much to explain regarding his behavior. Just know he is an unusual person and that is an understatement. I reported him to HR months ago, but note that HR departments work for the employer and not the employee. What these types of bad bosses do is stay just under the radar to passive aggressively force people out without doing anything technically and obviously illegal.

The atty I consulted said if I was fired to let him know -  despite everything he would not take my case to help me get a severance package unless I was fired. But I have resigned.


----------



## silentg

Now it’s time to travel and enjoy life! Glad to hear you are out of that stressful situation.
Silentg


----------



## WinniWoman

silentg said:


> Now it’s time to travel and enjoy life! Glad to hear you are out of that stressful situation.
> Silentg



Thanks. Well- we already travel as much as our budget allows. Also, my husband is still working and now is the sole supporter. So we are not changing anything in regards to travelling


----------



## WalnutBaron

uop1497 said:


> I am reading your post in a location far from home.  If you feel sad to leave your job, just say Good bye to only the people who you think are your friends at work. Just do not pay any attention to your terrible boss if he is around in your view.
> 
> I like to ask if you do not mind (and if you want to share).  since your boss is treat people around him badly thru these years he work for the company. How come he is still has powerful and gets his way . Why no one can not do anything about his behavior.  No HR personnel around to stop his bad behavior.  Did Anyone at the company to make complaint to HR. If so, I can not believe HR does not done any thing to find out the truth.
> 
> I know your seek legal advise before. Does it any help at all. Can they help get you any compensate package even you choose to reside on your own.
> 
> Sorry, if you have address similar question already. I does not have time to read all the post here.
> 
> I hope you will find something to do soon,   And I wish you the very best . Good luck and take care .


I'm afraid I'm going to sound a little protective of Mary Ann here (and I guess I am), but asking her to plow over a lot of old ground just because you don't want to read through her posts on this thread strikes me as a bit selfish. Mary Ann has been through hell with an idiot boss, and now that she's resigned and left that job, the best all of us can do for her is to help and encourage her in the next chapter of her life--which is what all of us who've been following her story for months have been attempting to do, especially since she informed us of her resignation. Please don't ask her to recall the events of the last eight months all over again. If you're really interested, then take the time to read the thread. One of the great things about TUG is that people care for each other here, and while I believe your intentions were good, the fact is that you didn't think through your request that she summarize--again--the circumstances of her past workplace, situation with her boss, and other issues which are now in her past.

We all need to help her look forward, which is what she is and has been doing. Thanks for your consideration.


----------



## Sugarcubesea

WalnutBaron said:


> I'm afraid I'm going to sound a little protective of Mary Ann here (and I guess I am), but asking her to plow over a lot of old ground just because you don't want to read through her posts on this thread strikes me as a bit selfish. Mary Ann has been through hell with an idiot boss, and now that she's resigned and left that job, the best all of us can do for her is to help and encourage her in the next chapter of her life--which is what all of us who've been following her story for months have been attempting to do, especially since she informed us of her resignation. Please don't ask her to recall the events of the last eight months all over again. If you're really interested, then take the time to read the thread. One of the great things about TUG is that people care for each other here, and while I believe your intentions were good, the fact is that you didn't think through your request that she summarize--again--the circumstances of her past workplace, situation with her boss, and other issues which are now in her past.
> 
> We all need to help her look forward, which is what she is and has been doing. Thanks for your consideration.



WalnutBaron, I just want to say that you are amazing and I love that you and other's are being very protective of Mary Ann. When you are going through something horrific in you life and you come here to share your burden / issue and others either don't take the time to read about the situation or jump to conclusions and try to make you feel worse is so very sad. What other's don't realize is that person is going through hell ( I have been through this myself so this is why I'm so passionate) and they are looking for support not to be critiqued.

May Ann, I wish you nothing but the best and I know you will enjoy retirement and all that life has to offer....


----------



## Panina

Sugarcubesea said:


> WalnutBaron, I just want to say that you are amazing and I love that you and other's are being very protective of Mary Ann. When you are going through something horrific in you life and you come here to share your burden / issue and others either don't take the time to read about the situation or jump to conclusions and try to make you feel worse is so very sad. What other's don't realize is that person is going through hell ( I have been through this myself so this is why I'm so passionate) and they are looking for support not to be critiqued.
> 
> May Ann, I wish you nothing but the best and I know you will enjoy retirement and all that life has to offer....


Our community is unique and I am I proud to be a tugger. Both, sugarcubesea and walnutbaron are great examples why.


----------



## uop1497

Sorry if my questions to  Marry Ann offended anyone reading my post here.

I do not mean for her to re-live what her ordeal . I was once in a situation similar to her and I can understand her feeling . However, in my opinion, the more a person talk, the faster he or she will put it behind. Maybe it only true in my case .


----------



## WinniWoman

No worries. I have had to relive it again trying to apply for unemployment and explaining why I resigned.
BTW- what a nightmare applying! Not a user friendly website. Kicked me out 2 times! No warning of being timed out. Tried doing it via phone- just as bad. I ended up doing not such a great job on my explanation as I had to hurry through the 5 questions where they ask you to elaborate. Even my coworker who was fired said the same- how the website was horrible and she ended up doing it via phone.

Anyway, after you file on line you still have to make a phone call to complete the process. So then I was on hold for 10 minutes and then the rep. was cut and dry and all I know is I was tired and hungry after the whole thing. Took me 3 hours! Not kidding! And I will probably be denied anyway. LOL!

I am a fairly intelligent person and I am on line for everything. I don't get how your not so slick individual could handle this process easily. They make it as hard as possible to file. Wasn't like this in the old days. Crazy.

BTW- I got an email response to my Exit Interview Form from the COO. She wrote that they take these things seriously and asked if I wanted to speak further about my experiences. I ignored her just as I did to her short email regarding my resignation. I said all I had to say. Not worth my time anymore. Too late. And they don't really care anyway.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Mary Ann .. any written or verbal or recorded communication is ONLY collected by the employer or their agent or the governemnt is to USE against YOU for filing an employment claim or a lawsuit. 

You got to love the standard line of "to make sure we are serving you the best we can" .... when it really means sometihng like "we are trying to tied you up in knots, frustrate you to insanity and prevent you from any further or future LEGAL actions".


----------



## WinniWoman

vacationhopeful said:


> Mary Ann .. any written or verbal or recorded communication is ONLY collected by the employer or their agent or the governemnt is to USE against YOU for filing an employment claim or a lawsuit.
> 
> You got to love the standard line of "to make sure we are serving you the best we can" .... when it really means sometihng like "we are trying to tied you up in knots, frustrate you to insanity and prevent you from any further or future LEGAL actions".




I know. Right you are!


----------



## WinniWoman

So an interesting update: The woman who replaced me has resigned as of today. She actually texted me and told me that she thought she could tough it out, but she just could not. 3 weeks and she is done.

She said Napoleon is a bully and a manipulator. She said she was nauseated by his minions as well. He actually treated her similarly to how he treated me and the other women there.  She said he was pissed when she told him! LOL! She left right then and there.

She said the past 3 weeks have been horrible and she could not communicate with him. She could not get straight answers from him and he gave her dirty looks. He made her feel stupid and ignored her for the most part.

OMG. This is his MO. You can't make this stuff up. Just rewards. 

I wished her well. She was smart as she never quit her other part-time flex job so she at least still has that. She will be ok.

As for me, 3 weeks in and I am doing alright except the weather has been awful- nothing but rain. Been raining for the past 4 months. Almost every day. I am getting antsy as I have chores to do outside and have only gotten to some of them.

I am actually pretty busy next week with medical/dental appointments, lunch with another unemployed friend in PA, some shopping at Sams Club, and so forth. My days go fast, by the time I get up at 6am (late for me!) and then exercise and do some stuff-even if I do not do too much- it flies by! And I usually have nothing to show for my time! Crazy.

Just living and managing the household during the day instead of before and after work or just cramming it in on weekends.

I am feeling a little worried (nothing new for me) as our budget is very tight without my income- more so than I thought it would be. Even though we lowered my husband's 401 k to just the 5% to get the employer match, and stopped all other savings except the full HSA contributions, we still have no breathing room without taking some money out of savings each month, which I don't want to do. Not much to cut back on in the budget either. Hubby is going to change his withholdings and claim one exemption (instead of 0) to take home more in his paycheck. Trying to sell one of our cars, but not getting many bites. I actually could not sleep the past couple of nights over this whole thing. I should have drank some wine. LOL!

Anyway, in the spring hubby's life and disability insurance policies expire, so that will be extra money we will have each month. If his employer does not allow him to contribute any longer to the HSA for 2019- then we will have that as well.

We are pretty frugal people, just live in such a high tax state- the property and school taxes kill us.

Anyway, hopefully it will all work out!

PS The NYS Dept of Labor (re my unemployment claim) called me to ask questions about the age discrimination and so on. I was kind of taken off guard as I wasn't expecting a call from them. Anyway, I answered honestly and they said they had to contact my employer, but I have not heard from them yet.


----------



## DaveNV

If the employment people contact you again, you may want to share that your replacement only lasted three weeks.

Dave


----------



## ecwinch

So what advice would you offer for someone else who finds themself in a similar situation?


----------



## WinniWoman

I can only say to follow your gut. I happen to be a very strong person and I stuck it out for 7 months.  But I knew from the get go that it was not me (at fault) and I knew that it would only be a matter of time that I would not be able to tolerate it any longer.

I do think going to HR helped me to keep my job- not get fired- at least for awhile. The way I presented it to them. Using the age  and harassment issues. But in the long run, it is more important not to subject yourself to continued bullying and mismanagement. If nothing changes, better to move on.

It is a shame that good people have to lose their jobs while these creeps keep theirs. But that is just the way of the world today.

I actually just spoke to a nurse that had left quite a while ago and she had already quit the job she went to from there and today she quit the one she went to just 5 weeks ago! She said it was horrible! This is a real "nursey" nurse. A strong woman. Old school. She is the type of nurse you would want to care for you.

This is why I don't think I could ever work for someone again. The jobs today stink big time! You have a lot of narcissistic psychos running the places. Even my brother- who is like #6 in the hierarchy of an international company-says his boss is the same.


----------



## pedro47

DaveNW said:


> If the employment people contact you again, you may want to share that your replacement only lasted three weeks.
> 
> Dave


That will have no barren on the OP case. The Claim Taker job is gather facts and make a decision of eligibility base upon the UIS Laws.
To the OP do you have an employer handbook?. Read it and use it against your supervisor. Find every thing written in your handbook that he violated.


----------



## WinniWoman

pedro47 said:


> That will have no barren on the OP case. The Claim Taker job is gather facts and make a decision of eligibility base upon the UIS Laws.
> To the OP do you have an employer handbook?. Read it and use it against your supervisor. Find every thing written in your handbook that he violated.



I do have it. Surprisingly he never asked for it back. But I don't think I can actually substantiate anything legally. These guys are slick- they stay just under the legal radar.


----------



## VacationForever

I do not think age discrimination claim would stand.  But heck, he called OP his mother at one point in time, and it is a good one to quote in filing the claim.  He is a horrible manager and he is that way to everyone young or old, and his management supports his style.  There was certainly harrassment so much so nobody wants to work under him.  I am just not sure what sort of harrassment it would come under.


----------



## pedro47

Did he make that statement (that the OP was his mother) in front of any other employees or HR personnel. That you can used against your supervisor and that HR did not do anything to stop this problem.


----------



## Passepartout

mpumilia said:


> I do have it. Surprisingly he never asked for it back. But I don't think I can actually substantiate anything legally. These guys are slick- they stay just under the legal radar.


I wonder, Mary Ann, since the woman who replaced you had departed under duress, if she could/would be a witness in your behalf testifying about a hostile work environment. We don't think you are eligible for unemployment insurance because you quit. You will also have a hard time proving age discrimination. But a hostile work environmen, with the way you've noted and documented it might help - especially with a witness who took your position

Good Luck

Jim


----------



## VacationForever

Passepartout said:


> I wonder, Mary Ann, since the woman who replaced you had departed under duress, if she could/would be a witness in your behalf testifying about a hostile work environment. We don't think you are eligible for unemployment insurance because you quit. You will also have a hard time proving age discrimination. But a hostile work environmen, with the way you've noted and documented it might help - especially with a witness who took your position
> 
> Good Luck
> 
> Jim


One can absolutely be successful in an unemployment claim even though the person quits.  As an employer in a super employee friendly state like California, I have a ton of experience with this.  Heck, even something as small as the hours of the shifts change marginally or the manager changed causing stress, the employee can quit and collect unemployment.


----------



## pedro47

The OP, can win her case with UI, if she can prove this was a hostile environment and this could be use in a court of law. This hostile environment could be used against  her employer.


----------



## WinniWoman

I will have to see how it all plays out. I certainly don't want to drag someone else into my situation with the Dept of Labor and cause them more stress. This young woman was worried about how the boss would react to her resignation and initially in her text told me she felt stuck because of it. I had told her to just send him and email and not go back into the office - she owed him nothing. But- she braved it and told him in person and then went home.

Like the other women, who were older and good have helped with the age discrimination claim, I think she would just rather move on and skip any more confrontations. Her nieces are still working there also. (One of them- who is his right hand and does all his work for him- actually hates it there as well according to her.)

I would like to think my ex employer would just ok the claim and let me collect to get rid of me, but then again, they might look at approving it as appearing guilty of age discrimination. So- again, I doubt I will get it. But I will see what the appeals process involves. To me- at the very least this was constructive discharge- a term I should have used with the Unemployment Office rep- but forgot to when speaking with her.


----------



## Bwolf

Don't hold back in the appeals process.  Good luck.


----------



## pedro47

To win an appeal you cannot hold back Information. Documentation is the key to winning an appeal. Good Luck and do not give up.


----------



## WinniWoman

I received the denial yesterday in the mail. Employer stated my job was not in jeopardy and my reason for quitting was not compelling. (Yeah- right).

A hearing would have to be in person. I am mulling this over, but tend to think I would let it go as I am not going to hire an attorney and I would not do well in person and I don't want the stress. I am still decompressing.


----------



## Tia

Your former employer wins if you accept this and the hostile work environment will continue for those hanging on there. You have to do what is right for you. Hostile work environment, d/t crazy boss,  should be easily proved with all the people that have had the same experience there and with the documentation you kept.

I worked under a crazy boss once, _no fun._ I got a meeting with the dept director to which two of the strongest workers in the department went along with me.  Poof crazy boss was demoted and recommended to not return to our area.



mpumilia said:


> I received the denial yesterday in the mail. Employer stated my job was not in jeopardy and my reason for quitting was not compelling. (Yeah- right).
> 
> A hearing would have to be in person. I am mulling this over, but tend to think I would let it go as I am not going to hire an attorney and I would not do well in person and I don't want the stress. I am still decompressing.


----------



## bluehende

mpumilia said:


> I received the denial yesterday in the mail. Employer stated my job was not in jeopardy and my reason for quitting was not compelling. (Yeah- right).
> 
> A hearing would have to be in person. I am mulling this over, but tend to think I would let it go as I am not going to hire an attorney and I would not do well in person and I don't want the stress. I am still decompressing.



You can look at it this way.  Your old employer and boss have no power over you now.  No need to get stressed.  The worst that can happen is what happens if you do not go.  On the positive side you can make some cash and possibly help people you did care about on the job.  The only way to stop his behavior is if there are consequences for his behavior.  Giving up is letting him win.


----------



## lockewong

You may want to contact your former replacement.  She has nothing to lose since she kept her other part-time flex job.  Also, as Pedro47 and DaveNW stated, more documentation is better.  The mere fact that she left after only three weeks must be brought to the UI Department's attention.  They do not know.  They have to ferret out bad claims and without information, they cannot make that determination.  It is going to be stress since you relieve it; but, he has no power over you any more. Make them sweat.  Find those notes in the handbook.  If you dated the entries, copy them and send them in.  They reflect what was happening as it was happening.  A "real-time" journal, so to speak.  Good luck.


----------



## Panina

Whereas one would want to stop what is going on at the company, it is not Mpumilia’s obligation do so and might not be the best thing for her.

There is no right or wrong answer.  The answer for mpumilia is what is right for her. 

She chose to leave and not fight or sue while she worked there. She put lots of thought into her decision deciding it was time to move on. 

My advice to my friend is don’t look back. You already let go of the insanity.  Look forward and keep your face in the sunshine and the shadows will fall behind.


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## WinniWoman

Again, thanks to you all. I am considering it. I just have to go over everything - my documents that I have and also go through the unimployment handbook to see what is involved in the hearing.

Another issue is they do not hold the hearing in the county in which I live or worked. You have to go all the way down to Westchester (several counties down from here) and that alone is stressful for me.

As for my coworkers, out of all the women who were harassed by this idiot, I was the only person who made a report to HR. I asked several of the other woman to report it. The one that got fired did not want to because she got severance and unimployment and didn't want to jeopardize that. The nurse said she was going to but I have had conflicting information as to whether or not she actually did.  The clinical director just wanted to move on and she did not report it either as far as I know. 

So, so much for that. I do have the texts from the woman who just quit, but really, she sent those to me in confidence and I would not share them.

Tomorrow I am going to call the Dept of Labor and ask if they would hold a phone hearing- that I could handle better. The letter says nothing about a phone hearing.


----------



## Fredflintstone

Mary ann, 
The US has the lowest unemployment rates that have not been seen in years. Studies are showing that older Americans are getting jobs at a good click.

Just my opinion and based on the thread. I am truly sorry you were treated so poorly by your past employer. I am sure you had many stressful days there and pulling the plug certainly relieved the stress....in a way.
Now, you are having stress once again from these heartless fools by having hearings.

Just my humble opinion. Be free of these losers. They don’t deserve someone of your caliber. Focus on getting another job where you are rightly valued. If you focus on that, you will be much more happy and leave the stress of these folks behind you.

Again, given the strong employment numbers, your chances of getting another job that will treat you well is high if you focus on that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## VacationForever

mpumilia said:


> Again, thanks to you all. I am considering it. I just have to go over everything - my documents that I have and also go through the unimployment handbook to see what is involved in the hearing.
> 
> Another issue is they do not hold the hearing in the county in which I live or worked. You have to go all the way down to Westchester (several counties down from here) and that alone is stressful for me.
> 
> As for my coworkers, out of all the women who were harassed by this idiot, I was the only person who made a report to HR. I asked several of the other woman to report it. The one that got fired did not want to because she got severance and unimployment and didn't want to jeopardize that. The nurse said she was going to but I have had conflicting information as to whether or not she actually did.  The clinical director just wanted to move on and she did not report it either as far as I know.
> 
> So, so much for that. I do have the texts from the woman who just quit, but really, she sent those to me in confidence and I would not share them.
> 
> Tomorrow I am going to call the Dept of Labor and ask if they would hold a phone hearing- that I could handle better. The letter says nothing about a phone hearing.


You should be able to call in, just have to discuss with EDD that you will have difficulty in appearing in person.


----------



## pedro47

You can have a telephonic hearing; I would preface a face to face hearing to the see the employer expressions and the documentation he enter into the appeal process.

I feel you needs the opportunity to read his evidence.

The employer won the first step, because you voluntarily quit and it sound liked you submitted a letter indicating you were resigning on a given date.


----------



## WinniWoman

pedro47 said:


> You can have a telephonic hearing; I would preface a face to face hearing to the see the employer expressions and the documentation he enter into the appeal process.
> 
> I feel you needs the opportunity to read his evidence.
> 
> The employer won the first step, because you voluntarily quit and it sound liked you submitted a letter indicating you were resigning on a given date.



Yes- right. But honestly, I did not expect to receive unimployment due to the fact that I resigned. That is actually why I held out so long. I waited to see if he would fire me, but I am convinced that because i went to HR he never did. He stayed just below the legal radar and kept telling me he wasn't firing me. He was coached well.

If your boss is a big jerk and makes you miserable, that is not considered a hostile work environment, though I would beg to differ on that one.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Mary Ann ... bullies WIN when their victims keep quiet. You will feel vastly more "in control" of your life IF you do seek recourse to the maximum.

As for a NEW JOB and NEW WORK PLACE .. you live in a small area and at your NEW job, someone will know someone who will 'repeat' the gossip your former boss will be (is) spreading about you. That is human nature in a small town. Dirt is interesting ... whining is NOT.

When I was downsized ... my manager's boss OFFERED to 'cover me' til I qualified for the Company pension in less than 7 months. I asked for a couple of days TO THINK about it and declined his offer .. as one corporate termination option was 12 months at 1/2 pay plus health benefits plus 90% tuition & books to attend ANY accrediated educational program fulltime. I started and received my MBA in June, 1984  ... got a great contract consultant's position at an EVEN BIGGER COMPANY for WAY BIGGER money for 3.5 years.

Or as I referred to it ... I stopped punching a time clock in November, 1987 as I invested those BIG (consulting) contractor paychecks.

36 years later ... shy by about a month .. since I was laid off. 31 years later ... supporting myself without punching an employee time clock.

SIDE NOTE: Neither of those 2 companies are listed any MORE on the NYSE. Both got brought up (Sun Oil Company by Energy Transfer Partnership and DuPont by Dow Chemical Co).

2nd NOTE: The Sun Oil Big Boss who offered to cover for me ... he moved at some point over to the QVC Shopping entity as_ the_ Corporate Computer Systems' Executive. Took a guy who started at Sunoco with me to QVC as his 2nd. Hi, Jack!


----------



## pedro47

You can proved a hostile environment if you do a face to face interview and that supervisor become anger and displays his true color.

I personally wants you to be happy and stress free. No more drama.

Side note.  I feel your employer maybe reading this thread. Be careful whom you talk to about your case.


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## HitchHiker71

Fredflintstone said:


> Mary ann,
> The US has the lowest unemployment rates that have not been seen in years. Studies are showing that older Americans are getting jobs at a good click.
> 
> Just my opinion and based on the thread. I am truly sorry you were treated so poorly by your past employer. I am sure you had many stressful days there and pulling the plug certainly relieved the stress....in a way.
> Now, you are having stress once again from these heartless fools by having hearings.
> 
> Just my humble opinion. Be free of these losers. They don’t deserve someone of your caliber. Focus on getting another job where you are rightly valued. If you focus on that, you will be much more happy and leave the stress of these folks behind you.
> 
> Again, given the strong employment numbers, your chances of getting another job that will treat you well is high if you focus on that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



As an aside, it is really not accurate that UE is as low today as it was in 1969, because how we measured UE has changed drastically since the 80’s and 90’s when certain UE tracking rates and data points were legislated out of existence that were used in past decades.  Check out this link for more info:

http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts

If we were to compare the rates using the same metrics used back in 1969, UE would actually be around 20% right now.  Hard to believe I know, but statistically accurate according to the actual data.  

Statistics can be made to prove almost anything that we want to prove when we monkey with the underlying data that produces the stats in question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Talent312

HitchHiker71 said:


> Statistics can be made to prove almost anything that we want to prove when we monkey with the underlying data that produces the stats in question.



"There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damned lies, and statistics."
-- _attributed to British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli (by Mark Twain)

.
_


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## isisdave

Is it possible your employer would fail to appear for the hearing? Any history of that among your colleagues?  I remember you said they really don't have an HR department, and it's just as far for them, plus using a day of someone's time. Would you prevail if they failed to appear?


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## Bwolf

Personally, I would drive to the face to face hearing.  It proves my conviction.  Have a lot of documentation ready to hand over.  If your company does not have an HR department, it is likely no one there knows how to handle the hearing.  If it is your boss who shows up, he may possibly blow up in the meeting, lending credence to your statements.  If it is someone else, they will likely fumble around.  If they fail to appear, isisdave's question applies.

Keep in mind it was a forgone conclusion your initial claim would be denied because you quit.  It is the appeal where you may prove the hostile work environment and win your case.


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## WinniWoman

isisdave said:


> Is it possible your employer would fail to appear for the hearing? Any history of that among your colleagues?  I remember you said they really don't have an HR department, and it's just as far for them, plus using a day of someone's time. Would you prevail if they failed to appear?




They do have a center in that county. I think there is a chance they actually would go to the hearing. Not sure if they didn't what would happen.


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## Patri

When I was already on unemployment, over time I found other part-time jobs and quit them (one was hurting its own reputation with its actions and I didn't want my name associated with them, the other job was not what they promised) and it did not hurt my benefits. So you may have a good chance to be approved. The agency doesn't have your records yet, does it? They just need to hear your story.


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## pedro47

Food for Thought Questions:
Did your employer have an HR person onsite in the office where you were employed?
Did you ever talk to HR about your situation and where was it held (onsite or in the county office)?
Ask that HR person from the county office are they familiar with your case and personnel history? And When did they talk to you?
Did you ever have a poor or unsatisfactory evaluation during your tenure with your employer or supervisor?


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## isisdave

They really don't have that much invested in your case personally

*State Unemployment Insurance (SUI):*
Wage Base is $10,900 for 2017 and $11,100 for 2018
Rates range from 1.3% to 9.1% for 2018

It's not like they're on the line directly for your UI benefits. They have a pool or reserve, which can be negative, and the rate they pay, 1.3 to 9.1 % *of the first $11,100 wages*, depends on how much is in it. If your claim succeeds, it may worsen their rate, but not if they have lots of other claimants, and not if it's already near the max.

At the very worst, they're paying UI taxes of 11,110 * .091 = $1,011 per employee per year.


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## WinniWoman

Patri said:


> When I was already on unemployment, over time I found other part-time jobs and quit them (one was hurting its own reputation with its actions and I didn't want my name associated with them, the other job was not what they promised) and it did not hurt my benefits. So you may have a good chance to be approved. The agency doesn't have your records yet, does it? They just need to hear your story.




Yours was a different situation. You were already on unemployment. Mine have been denied form the get go. The UI office interviewed me on the phone.


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## WinniWoman

pedro47 said:


> Food for Thought Questions:
> Did your employer have an HR person onsite in the office where you were employed?
> Did you ever talk to HR about your situation and where was it held (onsite or in the county office)?
> Ask that HR person from the county office are they familiar with your case and personnel history? And When did they talk to you?
> Did you ever have a poor or unsatisfactory evaluation during your tenure with your employer or supervisor?



No
Yes-phone-
Back in March or April 
No


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## WinniWoman

So, I have given this a lot of thought and yesterday I went over all the emails I have. I drank 2 screwdrivers going through them. Wow....my head was spinning. LOL!

I also researched on line and watched some You Tube videos on Unimployment Hearings and on the laws- some presented by attorneys.

Remember- I had already written up everything and sent it to a civil rights attorney way back and he said he would not take the case, but would reconsider it IF i got fired.

So- I have decided not to pursue the appeal. First off, I don't think I could win an appeal. From what I understand the boss would have to do something blatantly illegal in terms of age discrimination or harassment. For the age discrimination, him calling me "mom" BEFORE he was in the director position- I would think I would need a witness. Though one of the doctors knows the stories, she was not there when he actually did them, plus she earns her livelihood there and I am sure she will not put that in jeopardy. And to go digging up the people he did it in front of-our clients and past employees- ugh. Not going to happen. So it would be my word against his.

Second- regarding harassment/bullying, from what I understand it is not enough to just have a boss who is a jerk and a bully. He would have to actually do something like make me perform an illegal task or put me in an unsafe situation, threaten me with bodily harm, etc. Because he makes people miserable and makes it hard to do their jobs, that supposedly is not enough in the eyes of the laws in an employer "at will" state.

On top of everything else, it would take a couple of months to be resolved. 

I am just going to put this all away and concentrate on moving forward in my life. All the documentation is going to go into the fireplace once we get it up and running for the season- and I will sit there with a glass of wine and fell all is right with the world.

As an aside- the idiot mistakenly paid me my full salary this past Friday. Going over my bank statement, I saw an electronic deposit into my checking account and then saw it taken out again- I guess when he realized it was an error. Meanwhile, I have been trying to get my 401k rolled over into my IRA since I left. He evidently did not have me terminated in "the system" and the 401K broker has not been able to generate a form for me to fill in for the transfer. She had previously sent him an email regarding this; now she was going to send him another one. But she warned me I would have to wait until the NEXT payroll date for her to generate the form once he takes care of the termination.

I called the new payroll company and they have me in as terminated retro 9/21. But the 401k is held with the old payroll company, so maybe that is the problem- don't know. All I know is I just want to be done with any ties to this company and move on. SMH..................


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## pedro47

I wish you happiness in your new job. Gook Luck and stay focus.


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## WinniWoman

pedro47 said:


> I wish you happiness in your new job. Gook Luck and stay focus.



Thanks. No new job yet. I am taking a sabbatical. LOL!


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## WalnutBaron

Mary Ann, none of us can walk in your shoes and so--whatever your decision was going to be--the one you made would be the right one. Personally, I think you've chosen well. You mentioned in another post that you are still "decompressing". I think you've chosen the path that puts the whole unpleasantness of your past job where it belongs--in the past. Your decision also allows you to look forward, which is always a healthy thing.

As my wife is from upstate New York, I know a little bit about the lovely time of year this is in the Northeast. I hope you take some time to enjoy long walks, maybe a cup of hot apple cider, and taking a few photos for the rest of us of the lovely fall colors that can't be matched in your part of the country (except, perhaps, along the Blue Ridge Parkway).


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## DaveNV

Mary Ann, you’re a strong, powerful woman with indomitable character. Enjoy watching every piece of that mountain of stress burn to ashes. Then have another glass for me. Good luck, girl. You rock.

Dave


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## WinniWoman

Got a chuckle today. A coworker texted me that the boss said he is going to take over the marketing himself! LOL! What happened to the hundreds of resumes he said he got when he posted the ad for my job back in July? What happened with hiring the "second" marketing person?  For sure he will bring that place down and I can't say I care! SMH.....


----------



## WinniWoman

WalnutBaron said:


> Mary Ann, none of us can walk in your shoes and so--whatever your decision was going to be--the one you made would be the right one. Personally, I think you've chosen well. You mentioned in another post that you are still "decompressing". I think you've chosen the path that puts the whole unpleasantness of your past job where it belongs--in the past. Your decision also allows you to look forward, which is always a healthy thing.
> 
> As my wife is from upstate New York, I know a little bit about the lovely time of year this is in the Northeast. I hope you take some time to enjoy long walks, maybe a cup of hot apple cider, and taking a few photos for the rest of us of the lovely fall colors that can't be matched in your part of the country (except, perhaps, along the Blue Ridge Parkway).




Thanks. Ironically, the weather has been awful this year since summer! An unprecedented amount of rain most days- torrential downpours. Extremely high humidity levels just this month! Crazy stuff!

Unfortunately, this has resulted in lackluster color. A lot of trees are either still green- whatever leaves are left on them- or brown. The reds have not come out much if at all.  This is my favorite month and it has been a disappointment.

Meanwhile I am getting tons of stunning pictures from people up in Vermont and New Hampshire where the past couple of weeks the leaves were at peak!

Usually around here the peak is the week after Columbus Day week,, but the rain definitely messed that up this year.

Since i have been home, there have been just 3 days of no rain. Each one of those days I have been rushing outside to get some chores done (is anyone else crazy enough like me to hand wash their vinyl siding?) to beat the next downpour. We also had our frost frost over the weekend. Hubby is behind on his wood splitting, but managed to make a dent on one of the dry days.

Today it has been sunny and cool and thankfully Alexa says tomorrow will be partly sunny and no mention of rain for the first time in I don't know how long. Two days of no rain- what a concept! This is good as tomorrow I have a lunch date in Pennsylvania with a Smuggs timeshare buddy! Ironically she is also unemployed as she recently quit her job as well! We are now both on austerity budgets so we are hitting the popular and affordable local diner in Milford- a really pretty town. We can share war stories and actually laugh!

Maybe there will be some brilliant foliage color over there!


----------



## Cornell

Mary Ann, I don't know you at all and very infrequently post on TUG but I've been reading this thread since last March and I must commend you with your patience and perseverance.  You've kept it classy throughout , which is lacking so much these days .  I, too, am greatly affected by the weather so I can hear the "gloom" in your writing w/the rain.  Keep the faith!  And I think you've made a great choice to move ahead.  Life is filled with so many twists and turns -- I have discovered that things very often don't go as planned.  I had to completely reinvent my life about 8 years ago.  I'm not living a life that I never envisioned 15 years ago.  But it's ok!  Savor your new freedom.


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## WinniWoman

Here are some pics from our property so you can see what I mean about the limited color. Ok. So I threw in a pic of hubby's wood pile as well. LOL!


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## DaveNV

That's ^^^ nice!

Dave


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## am1

Why is the wood above a tarp?


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## WinniWoman

DaveNW said:


> That's ^^^ nice!
> 
> Dave



Thanks, but the color should be very vibrant now and as you can see it is no where near that because of all the rain and strange temps and humidity we have had. Hoping we will get at least some vibrant shades before all the leaves are down.


For contrast, here is a pic that a neighbor of ours took at Sam's Point (aka Ice Caves Mountain) nearby here where we live 2 years ago on October 21st. (We live near Shawangunk State Forest.)


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## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> Why is the wood above a tarp?



LOL! I have no idea why he does that- but he surrounds the wood completely with the tarp. He doesn't like the wood lying on the deck I guess. In other words, he drapes the other half of the tarp over the wood and pretty much wraps it to try to prevent water/snow from getting inside. Then he places bricks on top and the sides so it doesn't blow off.

The wood pile is right outside out back door and the wood stove is right in that room just a few steps away.


----------



## geekette

Oh yes, get some nature fixes!  It's beautiful.  I hear ya on rain, tho, I am soooo Over It.  

I agree with so many others here, you're doing great and doing YOU a great service in just moving on.  It's just not worth the ugliness that could ensue.  There are bad employers all over the place.  I am getting terminated since I have been on med leave for a year.  I'm sure that is inspiring loyalty in my team left behind.  I guess I'm not surprised and not bothering to be concerned about it.  In my city, I can find a job when it's time.  I know I'm lucky that way, I know it's not so easy in your neck of the woods.

Like Cornell, I'm reinventing.  I can't handle a full time job yet so relying on my disability policies meanwhile (it turns out that I was very smart in my 20s to CYA Just In Case) and working on my physical and mental health.  Nature, growing stuff, music, dance, I've tried painting (not artistic that way!), and going headlong into sewing and maybe making jewelry.  Revisit the hobbies you haven't had time for and maybe you can turn one of those into something you want to do.  Doesn't have to be self-employment, could be working in a place that makes widgets that you are good at designing, could be a supplier that provides a discount on stuff you would buy anyway....   Maybe not the money you made, but sometimes Happiness has its own cost extracted from cash flow.   

I had thought I might work at Starbucks in retirement PT, but retirement is finding me first, maybe, and if I had to have a job Right Now, I might go part time with JoAnn Fabrics or find something more serious in the hospital that has been so good to me.  Creative stuff is good for me, I've been away from tangible efforts due to computer work with intangible results, so I'd really like to stay away from another damned computer job although that is the path to high pay for me.  Sometimes compromises must be made, choices you wouldn't dream you would make become the obvious way to go, etc.  You're smart and strong, this is all going to be just fine.  Definitely, celebrate the incineration, toast to The New You.  Tough cookies like you don't get felled by assholes like him.  Living well is the best revenge.  

Do some nice things for yourself to continue decompressing and see where that takes you.  Could be you find motivation and inspiration to try something very different and maybe just maybe there are hidden benefits you wouldn't have imagined behind a door you would never have imagined you'd knock on. 

Life is change.  Buckle in, embrace the opportunity.


----------



## DaveNV

mpumilia said:


> Thanks, but the color should be very vibrant now and as you can see it is no where near that because of all the rain and strange temps and humidity we have had. Hoping we will get at least some vibrant shades before all the leaves are down.
> 
> 
> For contrast, here is a pic that a neighbor of ours took at Sam's Point (aka Ice Caves Mountain) nearby here where we live 2 years ago on October 21st. (We live near Shawangunk State Forest.)
> 
> View attachment 8641



But when the Fall color does hit, it should be remarkable.  When I said it was nice, I meant the general forested scenery.  I'm sure when the leaves turn, it'll be spectacular.

Dave


----------



## WinniWoman

geekette said:


> Oh yes, get some nature fixes!  It's beautiful.  I hear ya on rain, tho, I am soooo Over It.
> 
> I agree with so many others here, you're doing great and doing YOU a great service in just moving on.  It's just not worth the ugliness that could ensue.  There are bad employers all over the place.  I am getting terminated since I have been on med leave for a year.  I'm sure that is inspiring loyalty in my team left behind.  I guess I'm not surprised and not bothering to be concerned about it.  In my city, I can find a job when it's time.  I know I'm lucky that way, I know it's not so easy in your neck of the woods.
> 
> Like Cornell, I'm reinventing.  I can't handle a full time job yet so relying on my disability policies meanwhile (it turns out that I was very smart in my 20s to CYA Just In Case) and working on my physical and mental health.  Nature, growing stuff, music, dance, I've tried painting (not artistic that way!), and going headlong into sewing and maybe making jewelry.  Revisit the hobbies you haven't had time for and maybe you can turn one of those into something you want to do.  Doesn't have to be self-employment, could be working in a place that makes widgets that you are good at designing, could be a supplier that provides a discount on stuff you would buy anyway....   Maybe not the money you made, but sometimes Happiness has its own cost extracted from cash flow.
> 
> I had thought I might work at Starbucks in retirement PT, but retirement is finding me first, maybe, and if I had to have a job Right Now, I might go part time with JoAnn Fabrics or find something more serious in the hospital that has been so good to me.  Creative stuff is good for me, I've been away from tangible efforts due to computer work with intangible results, so I'd really like to stay away from another damned computer job although that is the path to high pay for me.  Sometimes compromises must be made, choices you wouldn't dream you would make become the obvious way to go, etc.  You're smart and strong, this is all going to be just fine.  Definitely, celebrate the incineration, toast to The New You.  Tough cookies like you don't get felled by assholes like him.  Living well is the best revenge.
> 
> Do some nice things for yourself to continue decompressing and see where that takes you.  Could be you find motivation and inspiration to try something very different and maybe just maybe there are hidden benefits you wouldn't have imagined behind a door you would never have imagined you'd knock on.
> 
> Life is change.  Buckle in, embrace the opportunity.




Wow! Thank you! But- what the heck? You are losing your job because of your medical condition?!! That is horrible! That also happened years ago at my job with this poor young woman who developed breast cancer (in her 30's) and they terminated her after just 3 months! This always proves to me loyalty does not pay. Even as an employee you have to think of yourself as your own boss- independent as is possible- out for yourself- not your employer. Yeah- do your job that you are paid to do but that is it. No love.

I saw you post about the craft fairs. Looks like something that may make you happy, but not rich. But that's ok.
I don't blame you for not wanting to go back to computer jobs. Working with your hands and creating something is so much more satisfying I would think. BTW-One thing that does well at events like fairs is food! Fried (funnel cakes) dough is always a big hit and makes money! I know from when my husband was a BoyScout leader and he and my son would man the tables and make them. They sold like crazy and they made lots of money for the troop! 

I have seen jobs posted that I could apply for, but when I read the descriptions I get that sinking feeling and say "no way" ..... I actually have seen some that maybe would be somewhat "fun" (I use that word loosely), but then I say- uh- no. I look at the applications- ugh! I don't even have a resume right now. Ha! Ha! The thought of even making one up makes my eyes roll behind my head. I don't think the job for me has been invented yet! LOL!

Down the line I think I would like to do something on my own from home. Maybe. I will see.

One word of advice- be careful about going into health care. It is the pits these days. Talk about stress..

Best of luck to you and let us know how you are fairing with this new direction. It is tough enough to go through an illness such as you have had, and then to have to deal with a job loss on top of it- omg- you have a great attitude- I give you a lot of credit. You will succeed. Like you said- you have embraced it and you are looking forward. That's the right perspective to have!


----------



## WinniWoman

DaveNW said:


> But when the Fall color does hit, it should be remarkable.  When I said it was nice, I meant the general forested scenery.  I'm sure when the leaves turn, it'll be spectacular.
> 
> Dave




Yes. Thanks. We are very lucky to own a nice spread here.


----------



## geekette

I don't mind the gross termination from a job I hated almost from the start.  It makes sense, as they didn't really treat employees like human beings will full lives outside of there.  A lot of policies were just plain wrong, stacked quite against the employee, definitely not typical of employers that want to keep their workers.

Then I found out that the med side was as screwed up as the biz side.  The mantra is Patients First but that was far FAR from my experience.  There are no doctors except my longterm PCP that I will see there and I'm ready to swap away from him as well, although he has been outstanding.    

Getting my dough out of their fee-laden 401k will be good, too.  Never have I seen asset fees charged to 401k participants.  It's not ok, it is predatory behavior perpetrated on a captive audience.  

It is hard to be surprised that I got a letter terminating me.  Seems a bit foolish, considering their high turnover, but I am quite ok with it.  Not quite feeling like they did me a favor since it adds complications, but I don't mind at all.  I just cannot imagine going back and now, I don't ever have to.  It is worth losing the fluffy blue fleece blankie in my cube.  

Maybe in 6 months I'll be up for interviewing and fresh job start but I just don't know.  I have a lot of weird problems and no straight trajectory to Better.   I'm sure that eventually my disability policies will say to heck with your pain, back to work with you, and that will force my hand into the next decisions.   One of which may be, suck it up buttercup, back to that stupid career.... or part time with benefits Somewhere, starting a long slog to True Retirement.  Or maybe some opportunity drops in my lap and it's perfect for me with my new difficulties.  

The bottom line is that you have company in limbo!!


----------



## WinniWoman

geekette said:


> I don't mind the gross termination from a job I hated almost from the start.  It makes sense, as they didn't really treat employees like human beings will full lives outside of there.  A lot of policies were just plain wrong, stacked quite against the employee, definitely not typical of employers that want to keep their workers.
> 
> Then I found out that the med side was as screwed up as the biz side.  The mantra is Patients First but that was far FAR from my experience.  There are no doctors except my longterm PCP that I will see there and I'm ready to swap away from him as well, although he has been outstanding.
> 
> Getting my dough out of their fee-laden 401k will be good, too.  Never have I seen asset fees charged to 401k participants.  It's not ok, it is predatory behavior perpetrated on a captive audience.
> 
> It is hard to be surprised that I got a letter terminating me.  Seems a bit foolish, considering their high turnover, but I am quite ok with it.  Not quite feeling like they did me a favor since it adds complications, but I don't mind at all.  I just cannot imagine going back and now, I don't ever have to.  It is worth losing the fluffy blue fleece blankie in my cube.
> 
> Maybe in 6 months I'll be up for interviewing and fresh job start but I just don't know.  I have a lot of weird problems and no straight trajectory to Better.   I'm sure that eventually my disability policies will say to heck with your pain, back to work with you, and that will force my hand into the next decisions.   One of which may be, suck it up buttercup, back to that stupid career.... or part time with benefits Somewhere, starting a long slog to True Retirement.  Or maybe some opportunity drops in my lap and it's perfect for me with my new difficulties.
> 
> The bottom line is that you have company in limbo!!



Wow. The culture at your job seems the same as mine! Despite what happened to me there, the other employees where I worked- especially the techs and front desk people- have it even worse than I did overall IMO. I don't recall if I mentioned it on this thread, but one of my coworkers (also there for like 13 years) told me she was just written up for working 5 minutes overtime! Just that she couldn't get away from her desk fast enough to swipe out! You can't make this stuff up! Boy- can I tell you stories- I could write a book on what goes on there!

Anyway, same with our 401k! High fees (though I have it invested in Vanguard funds), but the employer uses a middle man- broker- and it is the broker telling me I have not been terminated in the system and have to wait until the next payroll period just to get the FORM!  And I am starting to think something isn't right.Because I called the new payroll company and they certainly have me as terminated- though probably just was done this past payroll day when they mistakenly paid me my salary and then realized it.

I should be able to roll that money over now. The old payroll company where it is under doesn't allow it to be done electronically either, nor to do an "in Kind" transfer. Really? In 2018?  So I supposedly- according to the broker- have to wait until the next payroll period for her to just email me the form. Even after I fill it in it will take a few more weeks and they only cash out the proceeds. Then they MAIL me the check - made out to my financial company- and then I have to MAIL it to my financial company so they can roll it over into my IRA- a money market account I just had established specifically for it. Can you believe this? BTW- my financial company took care of opening my rollover MM account in like ONE day. Sure- they are anxious to get my money. My 401k company- not so much to be losing all my money! Maybe that is why the delay! I have to make more phone calls and start to get nasty now. This whole process could go into the holidays! Ridiculous! I have done this before and never had any issues- was done pronto. It just figures- everything about this employer is just horrible.

Well- also- we had some per diem nurses actually get text messages not to come back! My ex employer also had an incredibly high turnover. I know my last 2 months there I had thrown out all my personal things at my desk- which were few anyway because I was sure I was going to be fired I took nothing home- I wanted nothing to remind me of the place and I wanted to be able to just walk right out if I did get fired. LOL!

As for your disability policy- the heck with these insurance companies also!  You have been paying premiums- now it is time for them to pay up!

I have a really good policy that I- thankfully- have never needed. It also would pay me even if I did not have a job when becoming disabled- as long as I could not work.  When I was working, i would not have had to accept any ol' job but the kind I had- which involved driving. So if I couldn't drive (heaven forbid)- I would have been entitled to it. For this reason I have decided to keep it in effect even though I am no longer working. You just never know...

All this money we pay for all these insurance policies-medical, dental, home. umbrella, auto, disability, life- I am so sick of all of them! LOL!

Anyway- you hang in there! I'm with ya!


----------



## Talent312

mpumilia said:


> ...I should be able to roll that money over now. The old payroll company where it is under doesn't allow it to be done electronically either, nor to do an "in Kind" transfer. Really? In 2018?  So I supposedly- according to the broker- have to wait until the next payroll period for her to just email me the form. Even after I fill it in it will take a few more weeks and they only cash out the proceeds. Then they MAIL me the check - made out to my financial company- and then I have to MAIL it to my financial company so they can roll it over into my IRA- a money market account I just had established specifically for it....



That's how it worked when we rolled-over my DW's 401(k). We had the broker (MassMutual) send us the form. It was literally 20 pages long, but only about 5 pages applied to her.

They have to cash out becuz the investment accounts names change. We sent their check to her pre-existing rollover IRA. OTOH, when I got a partial lump-sum from my pension, the state sent it directly to TD Ameritrade. Maybe it's a matter of scale and how much postage would cost.
.


----------



## pedro47

mpumilia said:


> All this money we pay for all these insurance policies-medical, dental, home. umbrella, auto, disability, life- I am so sick of all of them! LOL!



Ditto on your statements. I am sick of paying for Dental & Auto Ins. When an incidents occurs you still must out of pocket.


----------



## geekette

I have a longstanding dislike of insurance companies, mostly from stuff I saw handling litigation documents.  But, I am thankful for these safety nets, my meds cost me 0 and I am now into minimal $ per visit, but, yes Still $.  Insurance removes more money from my pocket than health issues or life calamity ever did.  And now I am in a position to change that balance.  Hard to see it as lucky so I see it as good purchases that are now paying off.  Home insurance is so far lost money but the day the place is crushed by a tree downed in a tornado, it will turn out to have been a great purchase!

401k...   it's always been this way in my experience = has to be cashed out, check comes to individual, who either sends it on or cashes out and pays piper later (waaaay too many young people cash out and begin again at 0 in next 401k).  From what I've heard from others, it can be possible to transfer in kind IF and only IF the account is rolling to same company as plan administrator (ie Fidelity to Fidelity).  But even then, they don't have to, they can do whatever is easiest for them without regard to account holder wishes.  It's not our playground, they make the rules.

What I would suggest is doing your own stock selling vs accepting that they will cash out on whatever day things are processed.  That's about the best you can do.  I would take a look at mm vs stable value and pick best rate for the idle $ meanwhile.  Don't wait for Hero Prices, they may not come.  Accept Good Enough and click Sell.  It's best that YOU take control of those stocks vs somebody that really doesn't care.  

It does take time for termination to propagate through all the subsystems, this is kind of normal, regardless of how frustrating.  It's not personal, it's just slowass business as usual!

I will also be rolling out as soon as I can and will encounter the same Not Yet stuff.  oh boy!


----------



## PigsDad

mpumilia said:


> Then they MAIL me the check - made out to my financial company- and then I have to MAIL it to my financial company so they can roll it over into my IRA- a money market account I just had established specifically for it. Can you believe this?


I'm not sure why, but I think this is more common than you think.  Last year I rolled over a pension account into my 401k.  Both were from the same company, and both accounts were managed by Fidelity -- when I logged in, I saw both my pension and 401k accounts side by side.  But in order to roll the pension amount into my 401k, Fidelity had to cut me a check, mail it to me, and then I had to send it back -- to Fidelity!  Same process if I wanted to roll my Fidelity IRA from a previous employer into my Fidelity 401k.  Crazy!



geekette said:


> From what I've heard from others, it can be possible to transfer in kind IF and only IF the account is rolling to same company as plan administrator (ie Fidelity to Fidelity).  But even then, they don't have to, they can do whatever is easiest for them without regard to account holder wishes.  It's not our playground, they make the rules.



Yep, not an option for me going Fidelity to Fidelity.

Kurt


----------



## Blues

mpumilia said:


> I should be able to roll that money over now.





PigsDad said:


> I'm not sure why, but I think this is more common than you think.  Last year I rolled over a pension account into my 401k.  Both were from the same company, and both accounts were managed by Fidelity -- when I logged in, I saw both my pension and 401k accounts side by side.  But in order to roll the pension amount into my 401k, Fidelity had to cut me a check, mail it to me, and then I had to send it back -- to Fidelity!  Same process if I wanted to roll my Fidelity IRA from a previous employer into my Fidelity 401k.  Crazy!
> 
> Yep, not an option for me going Fidelity to Fidelity.
> 
> Kurt



Apparently there are lots of different methods that employers and investment companies use.  When I retired, it took about a month for the paperwork to settle out so I could roll my 403(b) into an IRA.  This from an employer that I was very happy with - they're generous, and really take care of their employees. And I'm friends with the folks in HR, so I know they weren't dragging their heels.  But it had to go through a full payroll cycle, and the paperwork was what it was. 

OTOH, I didn't need to handle it.  Once the employer finally sent the paperwork confirming my separation from service, Fidelity rolled it right over from 403(b) to IRA the same day.  I'm quite taken aback by Kurt's experience.


----------



## VacationForever

PigsDad said:


> I'm not sure why, but I think this is more common than you think.  Last year I rolled over a pension account into my 401k.  Both were from the same company, and both accounts were managed by Fidelity -- when I logged in, I saw both my pension and 401k accounts side by side.  But in order to roll the pension amount into my 401k, Fidelity had to cut me a check, mail it to me, and then I had to send it back -- to Fidelity!  Same process if I wanted to roll my Fidelity IRA from a previous employer into my Fidelity 401k.  Crazy!
> 
> Kurt



Same for us.  When we left the XX Fortune company where our 401K were in Fidelity, they had to sell, cut a check and we deposited the checks into our newly set up Fidelity Rollover IRA accounts.


----------



## Blues

VacationForever said:


> Same for us.  When we left the XX Fortune company where our 401K were in Fidelity, they had to sell, cut a check and we deposited the checks into our newly set up Fidelity Rollover IRA accounts.



Wow, that's 2 folks that had an experience with Fidelity that was opposite to mine.  I wonder if that's because I have a personal representative at the local Fidelity office.  My wife and I went into the office several times in the weeks just before and after my retirement, combining retirement accounts from elsewhere (left over from other employers), all to Fidelity.  It was that rep that told me it would take a few weeks.  He actually called when the paperwork was ready.  We went in, confirmed that I wanted the rollover, electronically signed some paperwork, and it was in my IRA before we left his office.


----------



## artringwald

mpumilia said:


> I should be able to roll that money over now. The old payroll company where it is under doesn't allow it to be done electronically either, nor to do an "in Kind" transfer. Really? In 2018? So I supposedly- according to the broker- have to wait until the next payroll period for her to just email me the form. Even after I fill it in it will take a few more weeks and they only cash out the proceeds. Then they MAIL me the check - made out to my financial company- and then I have to MAIL it to my financial company so they can roll it over into my IRA- a money market account I just had established specifically for it.


I had to do the same thing after retiring from 3M, a very large company, but it was the only way to make sure I wasn't taxed for withdrawing from the 401K. It's now in a Vanguard rollover IRA account.


----------



## am1

mpumilia said:


> LOL! I have no idea why he does that- but he surrounds the wood completely with the tarp. He doesn't like the wood lying on the deck I guess. In other words, he drapes the other half of the tarp over the wood and pretty much wraps it to try to prevent water/snow from getting inside. Then he places bricks on top and the sides so it doesn't blow off.
> 
> The wood pile is right outside out back door and the wood stove is right in that room just a few steps away.



May be better to build a stand alone raised area close to the deck with an independent roof.  Use a tarp over it for sure.  It would be easier to access in the winter and moisture would not be locked in.  Important to have it raised above what the compacted snow level could be.  Maybe what he does works but caught me off guard.  We do it differently.


----------



## Egret1986

mpumilia said:


> So, I have given this a lot of thought and yesterday I went over all the emails I have. I drank 2 screwdrivers going through them. Wow....my head was spinning. LOL!
> 
> I also researched on line and watched some You Tube videos on Unimployment Hearings and on the laws- some presented by attorneys.
> 
> Remember- I had already written up everything and sent it to a civil rights attorney way back and he said he would not take the case, but would reconsider it IF i got fired.
> 
> So- I have decided not to pursue the appeal.



You did your due diligence.  You made the best choice for you based on research and careful consideration.  Well done.  



geekette said:


> I agree with so many others here, you're doing great and doing YOU a great service in just moving on.  It's just not worth the ugliness that could ensue.  There are bad employers all over the place.



Indeed!  You can't change the past.  "Today is the first day of the rest of your life."  Leave that stress, anxiety and nastiness in your wake as you move forward.



geekette said:


> Like Cornell, I'm reinventing.  I can't handle a full time job yet so relying on my disability policies meanwhile (it turns out that I was very smart in my 20s to CYA Just In Case) and working on my physical and mental health.  Nature, growing stuff, music, dance, I've tried painting (not artistic that way!), and going headlong into sewing and maybe making jewelry.  Revisit the hobbies you haven't had time for and maybe you can turn one of those into something you want to do.  Doesn't have to be self-employment, could be working in a place that makes widgets that you are good at designing, could be a supplier that provides a discount on stuff you would buy anyway....   Maybe not the money you made, but sometimes Happiness has its own cost extracted from cash flow.



If your situation isn't working for you, it's necessary to reinvent and change up what you're doing.  It's easier said than done.  I don't like my job or the changes that have happened over the years with my employer, the atmosphere, etc.; but fortunately that hasn't been my biggest issue.  We've all got something (in talking to people, everybody's got something).  But when you're in the thick of it, sometimes you can get really drawn down into the abyss.  It's up to each individual to decide "enough is enough, this ain't working!" and reinvent....change things up.  I am doing that myself in areas of my life.  If I didn't take the steps to change things up, I knew there was going to be detrimental consequences to my happiness, health and well-being.  If it was easy, well ..........   "Procrastination is one of the most popular forms of self-sabotage because it's really easy."  "Love yourself while you still have the chance." 



geekette said:


> .....and working on my physical and mental health.  Nature, growing stuff, music, dance, I've tried painting (not artistic that way!), and going headlong into sewing and maybe making jewelry.  Revisit the hobbies you haven't had time for and maybe you can turn one of those into something you want to do.  Doesn't have to be self-employment, could be working in a place that makes widgets that you are good at designing, could be a supplier that provides a discount on stuff you would buy anyway....   Maybe not the money you made, but sometimes Happiness has its own cost extracted from cash flow.
> 
> Sometimes compromises must be made, choices you wouldn't dream you would make become the obvious way to go, etc.  You're smart and strong, this is all going to be just fine.  Definitely, celebrate the incineration, toast to The New You.  Tough cookies like you don't get felled by assholes like him.  Living well is the best revenge.
> 
> Do some nice things for yourself to continue decompressing and see where that takes you.  Could be you find motivation and inspiration to try something very different and maybe just maybe there are hidden benefits you wouldn't have imagined behind a door you would never have imagined you'd knock on.
> 
> Life is change.  Buckle in, embrace the opportunity.



Such great advice!  It sounds like "You are a Badass". (#1 New York Times Bestseller - YOU are a BADASS - How to stop doubting your Greatness and Start Living and Awesome Life.)  I applaud you. 



mpumilia said:


> Down the line I think I would like to do something on my own from home. Maybe. I will see.



You, too, are a Badass!   I applaud you. 



mpumilia said:


> (geekette) You will succeed. Like you said- you have embraced it and you are looking forward. That's the right perspective to have!



Gotta keep looking forward. 

You will succeed, too, Mary Ann.  It's been a whirlwind for you.  Your shiny new perspective will come in time.  As geekette stated, "Could be you find motivation and inspiration to try something very different and maybe just maybe there are hidden benefits you wouldn't have imagined behind a door you would never have imagined you'd knock on."



geekette said:


> Then I found out that the med side was as screwed up as the biz side.  The mantra is Patients First but that was far FAR from my experience.  There are no doctors except my longterm PCP that I will see there and I'm ready to swap away from him as well, although he has been outstanding.



I took a stand in my desire to rejoin life and get back on the road to mental and physical health back in April.  I decided that I needed to find a new PCP and start from the ground up.  Who do you choose?  How do you find that doctor that is focused on "Patients First"?  I looked online for someone that would be convenient and "looked" like a possibility of being a positive option for me on my health and wellness journey.  I didn't have too many parameters, I guess.  I had a "new patient" appointment in May to get a baseline on everything and discuss my situation and in which direction I wanted and needed to head for that lost well-being and wellness.

I saw her assistant in June (because she was out of the country) due to a trip to the emergency room for a couple of medical situations, one being a neurological issue.  I was scheduled in September for a follow-up to my initial appointment with her. 

I believe people are placed in our paths that can assist us on our journeys.  I believe she is one of those people, among others.  They mostly come from unexpected places.

I still hadn't made any headway on my journey towards better mental and physical health and well-being.  The emergency situation caused stress and anxiety, and probably was an excuse I used for not moving forward.  We discussed a lot of things.  When I wanted to dismiss the need to follow-up with the neurological issue, she understood my hesitation. However, she convinced me to move forward with further testing.  She explained to me that I was in charge of my care and what I was willing to do or not.  But I could benefit from knowing more and discussing options.  I explained to her that I was trying really, really working hard in trying to get my life in order.  But I just couldn't get it together.....so much work to do and things to work on......where do I start....I'm so overwhelmed.....life coach?, personal training?, diet?, counseling?...what step should I take?.....So I did nothing...."The Drama of Overwhelm".

What she did next really helped spark that smoldering flame inside of me to get out from under my BS.  She took the time to listen, to care about the patient sitting in front of her, and making the effort to go outside the norm of her physician duty.   She told me that there was a book that she had given to her husband to read, and that she was currently reading.  She said that she thought that it could be beneficial for where I was at and give some of the guidance that I was looking for.  She asked if she could send it to me.  I said sure.  I thought that she was going to email me a link to download online.  The next day at my front door, the book had been delivered to my front door step.  Wow?!  Really?!  She cared enough to do that for me?!  Oh, my gosh!

Long story short.....the book is a great one and seemed to be speaking to my personal issues (no, we've all got a lot of the same issues obviously).  The book alone wasn't what got me started on my current journey.  It was one of several catalysts that came together, and I was willing to surrender to the Universe and listen.  Accepting your truths can be hard.  "On the other side of you fear is your freedom."

It can be a humorous, but a very thought-provoking read.  I carry it around in my purse, and have reread many of the chapters more than once. I'm making positive strides.  I plan to show the doctor in November that her extra care and effort were not in vain.  "LOVE YOURSELF" is a recurring theme and reminder.  (I guess that must be another one of those common issues.)

YOU are a BADASS - How To Stop Doubting Your Greatness and Start Living An Awesome Life by Jen Sincero (2013).


----------



## Panina

@Egret1986 Thank you.  I just ordered the book.  On my journey too, not easy as we get embedded in our old thoughts and ways.  I always said my head gets in the way.

To everyone on their journey,  Never give up, just keep trying then there is hope. Toasting to our success.


----------



## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> May be better to build a stand alone raised area close to the deck with an independent roof.  Use a tarp over it for sure.  It would be easier to access in the winter and moisture would not be locked in.  Important to have it raised above what the compacted snow level could be.  Maybe what he does works but caught me off guard.  We do it differently.




Yes- he knows- he has thought of that- but for various reasons we could not build it close to the deck. So- he has been doing it this way all these years and it works ok.


----------



## WinniWoman

Egret1986 said:


> You did your due diligence.  You made the best choice for you based on research and careful consideration.  Well done.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed!  You can't change the past.  "Today is the first day of the rest of your life."  Leave that stress, anxiety and nastiness in your wake as you move forward.
> 
> 
> 
> If your situation isn't working for you, it's necessary to reinvent and change up what you're doing.  It's easier said than done.  I don't like my job or the changes that have happened over the years with my employer, the atmosphere, etc.; but fortunately that hasn't been my biggest issue.  We've all got something (in talking to people, everybody's got something).  But when you're in the thick of it, sometimes you can get really drawn down into the abyss.  It's up to each individual to decide "enough is enough, this ain't working!" and reinvent....change things up.  I am doing that myself in areas of my life.  If I didn't take the steps to change things up, I knew there was going to be detrimental consequences to my happiness, health and well-being.  If it was easy, well ..........   "Procrastination is one of the most popular forms of self-sabotage because it's really easy."  "Love yourself while you still have the chance."
> 
> 
> 
> Such great advice!  It sounds like "You are a Badass". (#1 New York Times Bestseller - YOU are a BADASS - How to stop doubting your Greatness and Start Living and Awesome Life.)  I applaud you.
> 
> 
> 
> You, too, are a Badass!   I applaud you.
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta keep looking forward.
> 
> You will succeed, too, Mary Ann.  It's been a whirlwind for you.  Your shiny new perspective will come in time.  As geekette stated, "Could be you find motivation and inspiration to try something very different and maybe just maybe there are hidden benefits you wouldn't have imagined behind a door you would never have imagined you'd knock on."
> 
> 
> 
> I took a stand in my desire to rejoin life and get back on the road to mental and physical health back in April.  I decided that I needed to find a new PCP and start from the ground up.  Who do you choose?  How do you find that doctor that is focused on "Patients First"?  I looked online for someone that would be convenient and "looked" like a possibility of being a positive option for me on my health and wellness journey.  I didn't have too many parameters, I guess.  I had a "new patient" appointment in May to get a baseline on everything and discuss my situation and in which direction I wanted and needed to head for that lost well-being and wellness.
> 
> I saw her assistant in June (because she was out of the country) due to a trip to the emergency room for a couple of medical situations, one being a neurological issue.  I was scheduled in September for a follow-up to my initial appointment with her.
> 
> I believe people are placed in our paths that can assist us on our journeys.  I believe she is one of those people, among others.  They mostly come from unexpected places.
> 
> I still hadn't made any headway on my journey towards better mental and physical health and well-being.  The emergency situation caused stress and anxiety, and probably was an excuse I used for not moving forward.  We discussed a lot of things.  When I wanted to dismiss the need to follow-up with the neurological issue, she understood my hesitation. However, she convinced me to move forward with further testing.  She explained to me that I was in charge of my care and what I was willing to do or not.  But I could benefit from knowing more and discussing options.  I explained to her that I was trying really, really working hard in trying to get my life in order.  But I just couldn't get it together.....so much work to do and things to work on......where do I start....I'm so overwhelmed.....life coach?, personal training?, diet?, counseling?...what step should I take?.....So I did nothing...."The Drama of Overwhelm".
> 
> What she did next really helped spark that smoldering flame inside of me to get out from under my BS.  She took the time to listen, to care about the patient sitting in front of her, and making the effort to go outside the norm of her physician duty.   She told me that there was a book that she had given to her husband to read, and that she was currently reading.  She said that she thought that it could be beneficial for where I was at and give some of the guidance that I was looking for.  She asked if she could send it to me.  I said sure.  I thought that she was going to email me a link to download online.  The next day at my front door, the book had been delivered to my front door step.  Wow?!  Really?!  She cared enough to do that for me?!  Oh, my gosh!
> 
> Long story short.....the book is a great one and seemed to be speaking to my personal issues (no, we've all got a lot of the same issues obviously).  The book alone wasn't what got me started on my current journey.  It was one of several catalysts that came together, and I was willing to surrender to the Universe and listen.  Accepting your truths can be hard.  "On the other side of you fear is your freedom."
> 
> It can be a humorous, but a very thought-provoking read.  I carry it around in my purse, and have reread many of the chapters more than once. I'm making positive strides.  I plan to show the doctor in November that her extra care and effort were not in vain.  "LOVE YOURSELF" is a recurring theme and reminder.  (I guess that must be another one of those common issues.)
> 
> YOU are a BADASS - How To Stop Doubting Your Greatness and Start Living An Awesome Life by Jen Sincero (2013).




Wow! Good luck to you! I love that quote: "On the other side of your fear is your freedom." OMG! I can so relate.

Not that I don't have a ton of self-help books, but I now have to check out that book as well! We are all on a journey.

WHAT IF....?
"Somehow we learn who we really are and live with that decision"
Eleanor Roosevelt


----------



## geekette

Egret, what a great share!   

I'll be finding that book, too, thank you!  I definitely plummetted into a pit of "nobody gives a shit about me" that I have been crawling out of, and good doctors are part of that.  I knew that I could rely only on myself, but I didn't expect to have it so harshly confirmed.  It has been a very rough year for me.  I no longer have much communication with people that aren't good for me.  I just didn't expect that some of them would be family.   

I may also need to dump the new boyfriend.   I'm trying to keep an open mind (he started a new demanding job), and this weekend will probably bring my answer.  I have an event that is important to me that he was allegedly going to attend but I haven't heard from him in over a week and I was the last one to make a call to him, a week ago Sunday.  We had a nice chat, honestly.  But nothing since.  I gave away the ticket I bought for him so if he shows, he can pay to see me on stage.   This one could break my heart, I was falling for him, hard.  Met him when I was 7, so we go way back and I always liked him, thought he was cute.  He still is.  But, I'd rather be solo than with the wrong person so if I need to cut him free, I have no problem doing so.  He could honestly win me back, but he'd have to want to.  He'd have to care enough about me to actually listen to me.  I don't know why that is so hard for men to do.  This isn't the first "deaf man" in my life but it is very disappointing to determine that he has this affliction.  I thought he was more evolved, but not the first time I've been wrong.  

It's all up to me to survive and thrive, and always was.  I will continue to cut from my life those that are not supportive, those that are harsh to me or nothing but criticism.  I don't need that and don't have to take it.  I can handle the family, I just know I can't rely on them and need to limit time with them for my own mental health.  I have adopted other people that are positive and supportive, like my dance coach, and a few trusted friends.  

I kind of always knew that you find out who a person really is by how they react when you are in crisis.  I don't let people dent my sunshine (when I have it) but I guess I had hoped they wouldn't attempt to shove me to darkness.   It's depressing if I think about it, so I generally don't, and keep trying to move myself ahead in some way each and every day.  I am thankful that no family lives near so my interactions are few and far between. 

I definitely am trying to reach my inner badass and sometimes she shows up and sometimes I can't find her.  Perhaps I can learn how to invoke her.  If all it takes is a book, I am thrilled!

thank you!!!


----------



## WinniWoman

So yesterday it hit me that the broker for my 401k could also be stalling (heck- they don't want you to take your money out of their high fee/commission account!), though the woman I had been communicating with there seemed very nice and helpful and said she twice had sent an email to idiot boss and the HR person.

Still, I went with my gut and called the old payroll company myself where my 401k sits and they told me exactly what the broker's assistant told me- that I had not been terminated in their system. So, I called the broker assistant again and she did not return my call so I sent an email to the idiot boss, and copied the COO, CEO, and HR person at my ex-employer and ccd the broker.

Amazingly I received an immediate response from the HR person (the one I had complained to about idiot boss) that she had taken care of it right then and there. Then later in the evening i received an automated email from the payroll company stating I was now eligible for a distribution and could go on line and take care of it.

I called the brokers assistant this morning and told her- she seemed like she was not aware, but who knows? Then I asked her if it would be faster for me to take care of it on line or have her send me the form and just as I thought- she said on line would be quickest- but if I had any issues I could call her back and she would email me the form.

It took me less than 5 minutes to go on line and initiate the rollover. The only bad thing is that I now am down by $2000 (plus the $75 fee) because the market went down. If this would have been taken care of the end of Sept. like it should have been, or they would have allowed an "in kind" transfer, I would not have lost that money. Meanwhile, the check won't even be generated until approximately 11/1. SMH....I didn't want to wait to do the roll over because then the market could go even further down. Can't time it and I want to be done with this employer and anything related to them.

In retrospect I should have just moved the money out of the funds I had into a money market fund within the 401k back in Sept. until all this was resolved, this way I would have cashed out on a high note.

Oh, well. Live and learn. Though I won't be able to use that lesson again in this lifetime. LOL!

Bottom line- I should not have depended on the broker's assistant to handle this for me. After she initially told me that I was not terminated in the system and would have to wait until the next pay period, I should have immediately taken the steps I did yesterday.

Anyway, now I will anxiously await that check so I can mail it over to my Financial Company.


----------



## WalnutBaron

It might not make you feel better, Mary Ann, but assuming your rollover would been both timely and would have gone right back in to a market-based IRA, you would have suffered the market downturn anyway. Only if your rollover would have gone into a CD or some other fixed return annuity would you have been protected from the recent swoon in the markets.


----------



## WinniWoman

WalnutBaron said:


> It might not make you feel better, Mary Ann, but assuming your rollover would been both timely and would have gone right back in to a market-based IRA, you would have suffered the market the market downturn anyway. Only if your rollover would have gone into a CD or some other fixed return annuity would you have been protected from the recent swoon in the markets.


 

I had actually planned (and still do) to roll it over into a treasury money market account within my IRA rollover account. I had my financial company set one up for me back in Sept in preparation for the transfer. I thought this best so that I could take my time seeing how I want to invest it.


----------



## Glynda

mpumilia said:


> Yes. Thanks. We are very lucky to own a nice spread here.



I agree, it's lovely! I recall your being concerned that it might not sell quickly when the time comes for your DH's retirement. I don't know the market there but it looks like a place other would love to escape to!


----------



## WinniWoman

Glynda said:


> I agree, it's lovely! I recall your being concerned that it might not sell quickly when the time comes for your DH's retirement. I don't know the market there but it looks like a place other would love to escape to!




Thanks. We will need a certain type of person to buy this place. Someone who likes the outdoors, seclusion,- maybe someone who likes to hunt or ride an ATV, owns a pick up truck- that type. Or maybe wants to have some animals. There is hiking and kayaking nearby as well (heck- you could hike your own property). The entrance to the highway is 6 miles away- not too bad. A local might appreciate it. Or maybe someone from the city who has dreamed of this type of life.

We do get solicitations to buy our rock walls, and cut our trees , and to use our land for campers. So- some income potential. though I can't imagine doing any of those things- but our neighbors have.

The paved driveway is super long and steep and that could be a deterrent because of snow plowing. The bridge over the brook is lovely, but some might look at it as more maintenance.

And then there is the house- which is lovely- but it does not have a basement and a lot of people like basements (why- I don't know). It is 2 bedrooms but could be 4. 3 full bathrooms (2 extensively remodeled). Steam shower. Recently remodeled kitchen. 1st floor laundry. It does not have a big open floor plan- just a small one. LOL!

Lots of windows and 2 big skylights. Wood floors. It's a salt box colonial with a 2 car garage, that is rather big. Whole house generator and central air. Fireplace and Vermont Castings porcelain wood stove. Huge pet pen attached to garage with pet door. Tiny screened in porch with a side patio (stamped concrete). Ground level deck.

It is peaceful and it is quiet here.

So- who knows? And -yes- the market isn't good round these parts. Taxes are outrageous, too ($10,000). Lucky to get $250,000 for it unless something changes between now and then.

This is one view of it from the back/side. Simple, but comfortable and cozy.


----------



## WinniWoman

Here is the front. I don't know why it posts sideways.


----------



## am1

mpumilia said:


> It took me less than 5 minutes to go on line and initiate the rollover. The only bad thing is that I now am down by $2000 (plus the $75 fee) because the market went down. If this would have been taken care of the end of Sept. like it should have been, or they would have allowed an "in kind" transfer, I would not have lost that money. Meanwhile, the check won't even be generated until approximately 11/1. SMH....I didn't want to wait to do the roll over because then the market could go even further down. Can't time it and I want to be done with this employer and anything related to them.
> 
> In retrospect I should have just moved the money out of the funds I had into a money market fund within the 401k back in Sept. until all this was resolved, this way I would have cashed out on a high note.
> 
> Oh, well. Live and learn. Though I won't be able to use that lesson again in this lifetime. LOL!
> 
> Bottom line- I should not have depended on the broker's assistant to handle this for me. After she initially told me that I was not terminated in the system and would have to wait until the next pay period, I should have immediately taken the steps I did yesterday.
> 
> Anyway, now I will anxiously await that check so I can mail it over to my Financial Company.



Its possible the market would have kept increasing after you sold.  

The trick is to use the lesson you learned for different situations.


----------



## Talent312

The volatility in the market can be a bit daunting.

Aut if you can ride-it-out.
As they say, "Good things come to those who wait."

,


----------



## geekette

Mary Ann, consider it the cost of being completely untethered from the yucky ex-employer.  You can make it back quickly.  Maybe not today, but you can make it back.  Plus, you don't quite know when they will execute the order.


----------



## geekette

minor update to my personal hijack.... boyfriend sends a two-liner email, he's too busy to come see me dance on stage.  The stuff he cites as consuming him is stuff he's had on his plate for a couple months.  I think I have my answer.  

If at this stage of our relationship I rank this low in his life, it's not worth it to me to stick around for more disappointment.  This one hurts but in the past year I have gotten used to people disappointing me so another in the trail of dust as I move on.


----------



## Tia

Sorry to read  about your the trail of dust.

I had a  friend  who put up many barrier walls on relationships post  divorce due to cheating spouse . Friend would go after  undesirable/unavailable ones and made personal rules why couldn't date someone who was decent and available + interested. 



geekette said:


> minor update to my personal hijack.... boyfriend sends a two-liner email, he's too busy to come see me dance on stage.  The stuff he cites as consuming him is stuff he's had on his plate for a couple months.  I think I have my answer.
> 
> If at this stage of our relationship I rank this low in his life, it's not worth it to me to stick around for more disappointment.  This one hurts but in the past year I have gotten used to people disappointing me so another in the trail of dust as I move on.


----------



## Panina

geekette said:


> minor update to my personal hijack.... boyfriend sends a two-liner email, he's too busy to come see me dance on stage.  The stuff he cites as consuming him is stuff he's had on his plate for a couple months.  I think I have my answer.
> 
> If at this stage of our relationship I rank this low in his life, it's not worth it to me to stick around for more disappointment.  This one hurts but in the past year I have gotten used to people disappointing me so another in the trail of dust as I move on.


Ouch, so sorry.  There is someone out there that will treat you the way you deserve.  When I went back into the dating seen, many of my newer friends had stopped dating because they had enough.  I always believed I would find the needle in the haystack.  You will find in life what you decide is good for you, just do what is good for you and never give up in your road to your happiness, whatever that is for you.


----------



## geekette

Thanks.  I am treating this as a lesson learned.  It was probably too soon for me to be in any relationship.  I am still in the process of reconfiguring my life.  I'm not someone that is searching for anyone, I'm alright with going right back to solo.  Best to do that before I am in too deep and emotions stronger.

I have bigger problems - no water today and well svc hasn't shown yet.  dress rehearsal at 5.  dang, did not want a nail-biter today but on I go, trying not to get dirty and plowing through my reserve water, reserving a few gallons for shower (dump water on self in shower).  I also stockpile wipes of various kinds, I like to be able to "wash" my hands with something that isn't nasty chemical.

Lucky for me, I make do with whatever.  being a free spirit, I can go with the flow.  Or lack of it!  Primitive living, right when I have to Girl Up!   ugh.

I can absolutely wait for the right one if ever I join forces again.  No hurry here.  Last danged thing I would need here this weekend is someone adding stress vs helping me with stuff.  Mom is already coming...!   lol


----------



## WinniWoman

Another text today from another coworker who is over 50. She- a mammo tech- is being moved to the other site (where essentially everyone goes to die- before they get booted out altogether) for Mondays and has to relearn taking XRAYS (which she has not done in 15 years). And she now has to work Saturdays at the main facility or she will lose all her hours (aka her whole job). She is convinced it is an age thing. 

Also- another tech just gave notice.

So- the saga continues......


----------



## WinniWoman

geekette said:


> Thanks.  I am treating this as a lesson learned.  It was probably too soon for me to be in any relationship.  I am still in the process of reconfiguring my life.  I'm not someone that is searching for anyone, I'm alright with going right back to solo.  Best to do that before I am in too deep and emotions stronger.
> 
> I have bigger problems - no water today and well svc hasn't shown yet.  dress rehearsal at 5.  dang, did not want a nail-biter today but on I go, trying not to get dirty and plowing through my reserve water, reserving a few gallons for shower (dump water on self in shower).  I also stockpile wipes of various kinds, I like to be able to "wash" my hands with something that isn't nasty chemical.
> 
> Lucky for me, I make do with whatever.  being a free spirit, I can go with the flow.  Or lack of it!  Primitive living, right when I have to Girl Up!   ugh.
> 
> I can absolutely wait for the right one if ever I join forces again.  No hurry here.  Last danged thing I would need here this weekend is someone adding stress vs helping me with stuff.  Mom is already coming...!   lol




Really. I would take this as this guy does not deserve you. What is up with your water?


----------



## geekette

Tia said:


> Sorry to read  about your the trail of dust.
> 
> I had a  friend  who put up many barrier walls on relationships post  divorce due to cheating spouse . Friend would go after  undesirable/unavailable ones and made personal rules why couldn't date someone who was decent and available + interested.


I did call a friend and laid out old red flags, etc., to ask what I wasn't seeing, etc.  I don't want to play games or fool myself.  Not keen on rules, either.  Yikes, I guess there are more ways to sabotage myself than I've done!


----------



## geekette

mpumilia said:


> Really. I would take this as this guy does not deserve you. What is up with your water?


Old house, I'm on an old well, 2 crusty parts quit working.  Restored shortly before dress rehearsal.  Literally, wrote the check, got in car, left.  Whew, at least on show day I have water.


----------



## WinniWoman

geekette said:


> Old house, I'm on an old well, 2 crusty parts quit working.  Restored shortly before dress rehearsal.  Literally, wrote the check, got in car, left.  Whew, at least on show day I have water.




Glad you got it fixed in time! Not having water is no fun. A lot of maintenance these houses.


----------



## WinniWoman

We will take the lump sum of my husband's small pension when he retires- or what's left of it now with interest rates going up. It's an annuity- like a 10 year plan- less money each month if your have the survivor benefit-whoever dies first- this and that -several options- all kinds of stipulations.  No thanks. Give us the money and we will deal with it ourselves. Think we will trust this private company with it? Nope. Just like I don't trust my ex employer with my 401k, with it's high fees.

It's not like we could live on the monthly annuity payout anyway, though certainly it would help when added to SS. This is no government pension- this is a private company one. And- again- they screwed people like my husband- in his case to the tune of like $100,000+.

So-we will roll it over to his own IRA.
We can save or invest whatever he ends up with, take out a little of the money from savings IF we want to- or not. Or- make our own annuity. Some months maybe take out a little- others maybe not take out anything. Our choice- not the insurance company's.

Something happens and we need a chunk of money- we have it to help us.

And if we croak in a few years, at least our son gets what's left, if anything.


----------



## WinniWoman

Well- finally some color! These photos of the Basha Kill here were taken by a member of our organization of the same name. It's a new day!


----------



## amycurl

Beautiful! I'm not sure if the South will get any color this year at all...it was just too hot for too long.


----------



## am1

mpumilia said:


> We will take the lump sum of my husband's small pension when he retires- or what's left of it now with interest rates going up. It's an annuity- like a 10 year plan- less money each month if your have the survivor benefit-whoever dies first- this and that -several options- all kinds of stipulations.  No thanks. Give us the money and we will deal with it ourselves. Think we will trust this private company with it? Nope. Just like I don't trust my ex employer with my 401k, with it's high fees.
> 
> It's not like we could live on the monthly annuity payout anyway, though certainly it would help when added to SS. This is no government pension- this is a private company one. And- again- they screwed people like my husband- in his case to the tune of like $100,000+.
> 
> So-we will roll it over to his own IRA.
> We can save or invest whatever he ends up with, take out a little of the money from savings IF we want to- or not. Or- make our own annuity. Some months maybe take out a little- others maybe not take out anything. Our choice- not the insurance company's.
> 
> Something happens and we need a chunk of money- we have it to help us.
> 
> And if we croak in a few years, at least our son gets what's left, if anything.



And if you live longer?  I am one to bet on that.  I guess it depends on ones health.  Downside guarantee can be an important thing when one does not know how long they will last.


----------



## WinniWoman

am1 said:


> And if you live longer?  I am one to bet on that.  I guess it depends on ones health.  Downside guarantee can be an important thing when one does not know how long they will last.



His pension/annuity would terminate after 10 years from what I understand about it.


----------



## WalnutBaron

Thank you, Mary Ann, for posting the photos of the fall colors in upstate New York. Just lovely. I have two beautiful silver maples planted in my backyard here in California and a small orchard of October Glory red maples at my work (which, incidentally, turn color in November!). They're the best we can manage here in Northern California. The temperature today is 81 degrees, but we can't hold a candle to the Northeast when it comes to the spectacular beauty of the fall season.


----------



## DrQ

Thanks Mary Ann. We just got back from Lee MA and was kind of disappointed in the lack of Fall color, but I guess the hot dry summer may have delayed the colors. 

We took a side trip to Ticonderoga NY and I really loved how beautiful the county was up there.


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## WinniWoman

Yes. The weather has been horrible this year. Colors were delayed and no where near as vibrant as usual. Nothing but rain and humidity for months - even in October. Tomorrow we brace for a Noreaster- more rain and wind! Could have more trees down and power outages. Meanwhile tomorrow is my yearly old friends get together and we have 14 people traveling to our home from NYC and Long Island. Will be the first time in 41 years that we have had a storm during this event. Just crazy.


----------



## bluehende

mpumilia said:


> Yes. The weather has been horrible this year. Colors were delayed and no where near as vibrant as usual. Nothing but rain and humidity for months - even in October. Tomorrow we brace for a Noreaster- more rain and wind! Could have more trees down and power outages. Meanwhile tomorrow is my yearly old friends get together and we have 14 people traveling to our home from NYC and Long Island. Will be the first time in 41 years that we have had a storm during this event. Just crazy.



You are lucky.  We seem to have pretty bad luck for homecoming here in DE.  Today will the be 3 of the last 4 that instead of grilling in a sea of humanity it has been moved to our house.  So quick get the house ready for 20.


----------



## clifffaith

We have tended to travel in October, even long before becoming timeshare owners, because it is our anniversary month (33 years on the 19th). About 1987 we took an October trip to Virginia and hit at   perfect color time. We were driving around admiring the scenery and at one point drove past a stand of something with round leaves planted on both sides of the road. Leaves were bright yellow and there was a slight breeze so leaves were dropping. It was like being inside a gumball machine with bright yellow medallions floating and swirling all around us. It was magical, and right up there in my top five travel memories!


----------



## HitchHiker71

mpumilia said:


> Wow! Good luck to you! I love that quote: "On the other side of your fear is your freedom." OMG! I can so relate.
> 
> Not that I don't have a ton of self-help books, but I now have to check out that book as well! We are all on a journey.
> 
> WHAT IF....?
> "Somehow we learn who we really are and live with that decision"
> Eleanor Roosevelt



Reminds me of the quote: “There is nothing to fear but fear itself.”

We are oftentimes our own worst enemies when it comes to making progress and embracing real change in life.  It is truly a journey!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DaveNV

clifffaith said:


> We have tended to travel in October, even long before becoming timeshare owners, because it is our anniversary month (33 years on the 19th). About 1987 we took an October trip to Virginia and hit at   perfect color time. We were driving around admiring the scenery and at one point drove past a stand of something with round leaves planted on both sides of the road. Leaves were bright yellow and there was a slight breeze so leaves were dropping. It was like being inside a gumball machine with bright yellow medallions floating and swirling all around us. It was magical, and right up there in my top five travel memories!



I love it when the timing is perfect.  About ten years ago we did a Fall trip (end of September) through Utah's red rock country.  While driving Scenic Highway 12 from Bryce Canyon toward Capitol Reef National Park, it took us along the Hogsback, a winding road through the mountains.  The aspen trees were in full Fall color, and the wind was just right.  We saw leaves flying in all directions, swirling around us, much as you described - a gum ball machine effect.  It was a remarkable sight.  This is one of the pictures we took that day.

Dave


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## clifffaith

DaveNW said:


> I love it when the timing is perfect.  About ten years ago we did a Fall trip (end of September) through Utah's red rock country.  While driving Scenic Highway 12 from Bryce Canyon toward Capitol Reef National Park, it took us along the Hogsback, a winding road through the mountains.  The aspen trees were in full Fall color, and the wind was just right.  We saw leaves flying in all directions, swirling around us, much as you described - a gum ball machine effect.  It was a remarkable sight.  This is one of the pictures we took that day.
> 
> Dave
> 
> View attachment 8768



In the foreground of your photo I see really round leaves, if Aspens grow in the Shenandoah Valley area I bet that's what we saw.


----------



## DaveNV

clifffaith said:


> In the foreground of your photo I see really round leaves, if Aspens grow in the Shenandoah Valley area I bet that's what we saw.



That was my thought, too.  Round leaves, a couple of inches across, flying on the wind. Made me think of aspen trees, which reminded me of this picture.

Dave


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## TravelTime

This thread never dies!


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## Panina

TravelTime said:


> This thread never dies!


It hit a cord with many of us and just continues too.


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## WinniWoman

It's funny because yesterday we had our big annual old friends reunion. Out of all of us (16 in the group, but had a couple cancel due to illness), only 3 were still working, one being my husband. Some have been retired for quite awhile= the ones with good pensions. Some also are landlords so that helps a lot as well. Two - a husband and wife- both just so happened to be let go from their jobs this August- the wife (57) was at hers' for 18 years and the husband 40 years- but the company changed hands several times while he work-ed there so he only got a 3 month's severance package. She walked away with a years salary and health insurance for her and her husband, who only needs it until next December when he turns 65. When his severance ends, he will be able to get unemployment, but he does not intend to go back to work. The wife is undergoing career coaching and will need and wants to go back to work. They live in NYC so she is bound to get something. She really liked her job and had benefits that were beyond sweet so she will probably have a big adjustment in that regard.

We got to talking about my situation of course and everyone felt I would have had a good lawsuit if the other women at my job would have joined in. They also felt I should have appealed the unemployment claims. Naturally, I explained all my reasons for doing and not doing this and that. Then they of course asked me what I was going to do and if I was retiring and all that stuff. I told them I have only been off for one month and considered myself cautiously unemployed.

I realized as I was talking I was starting to get worked up. Then it hit me that I will not be over this for awhile yet.

Just Friday, a previous office supervisor (not director) at the job I worked at had sent me a PM via Facebook asking me to call her- because I had posted an obituary of another women who used to work with us (who quit because of BS) who died suddenly last week of sepsis (very sad - my age). When I called her she also began talking about the job and then about what was done to her and how. Mind you- this was quite a number of years ago. I noticed how worked up she was getting while talking about it and thought- "Gee- she hasn't gotten over this after all these years". In fact- she does not have health insurance and mentioned she went to the YMCA for a free mammogram. (her husband has it at his job but they do not offer spousal coverage. I am not sure why she did not go on ACA coverage- didn't get into it with her).

So it seems this employer has really done a number on us for sure. But just living life is keeping me busy and I am moving forward for sure!


----------



## WinniWoman

PS I just dusted off a book I had on the shelf titled "The Joy of NOT Working, A book for the retired, unemployed, and overworked", by Ernie J. Zelinski. Third Edition, 1997. I think re reading it now will give me a different perspective from when I first read it years ago. (I did buy it used- so it was just a couple of years ago I purchased it).

I have a bunch of books like this- "Your Money or Your Life", "How to Survive Without a Salary". etc. I was always curious about the subject.

I find it funny, as I said to our friends over the weekend, that I feel somewhat guilty not working- I'm either on the defensive or the offensive with it. Doesn't help that my husband gives me little digs that he thinks are funny- saying things like- "Well- YOU don't have to get up tomorrow morning" or  "Well- what did YOU DO all day today?" UGH!

It's so crazy, being I am not 42, but 62 and have been working for 46 years non stop! When in high school at age 16 worked every day after school and all school breaks and summers. Same in college. I never went on spring breaks or summer vacations to Florida or wherever like many of the other kids. Worked full time right out of college as well as I got married at age 21 and we bought a handyman special house before the wedding.

You would think at this stage of life a person that has worked all their life and lived responsibly should not have to feel this way, or worry. So I am hoping this book will be one thing to help me to relax and enjoy.


----------



## DancingWaters

I’m the one that is the hardest on myself about retiring at 62.   I feel like I gave up a great paying job that I loved. Loved my coworkers and students.   I worked hard to get my teaching degree and feel like I threw the job away.  But....the factors that made me retire were working all day and helping my girls out with the grandkids everyday after work, helping my husband fix up duplexes after tenants moved out til Late at night and weekends.   I wish I would have protected my job and not been spread so thin physically, but I always did these things and as I got older I couldn’t keep up that pace.   Now that it’s been 2 years retired I’m adjusting better.   I still work 10 hours a week but I still want my classroom I had. And without my great salary our lifestyle has changed a lot.  I felt I wasn’t ready to give up all the money and fun.   It does get better with time and another year my husbands SS will kick in and that will help.  Loss of self worth has not been fun


----------



## cgeidl

We retired at age 57 and have no regrets. At one time I had 5 different sources of income and I switched the amount of time and effort for different earnings as the market changed. I spent long hours doing different things so although extremely busy It was not tiring as one who worked 75 hour weeks at one job. I gradually dropped one function after another and we decided to retire. I was concerned I would not be busy in retirement and that might be problematic so I wrote down 20 places to go and 20 things to do. We went all the places but Inlost the things to do after just accomplishing a couple. Retirement has been good to us . To get the boot at an older age is most difficult for those with employee jobs and entirely unfair. Employers need to be accountable for their actions and although I dislike seeing lawyers they are sometimes the best solution.


----------



## Fredflintstone

mpumilia said:


> PS I just dusted off a book I had on the shelf titled "The Joy of NOT Working, A book for the retired, unemployed, and overworked", by Ernie J. Zelinski. Third Edition, 1997. I think re reading it now will give me a different perspective from when I first read it years ago. (I did buy it used- so it was just a couple of years ago I purchased it).
> 
> I have a bunch of books like this- "Your Money or Your Life", "How to Survive Without a Salary". etc. I was always curious about the subject.
> 
> I find it funny, as I said to our friends over the weekend, that I feel somewhat guilty not working- I'm either on the defensive or the offensive with it. Doesn't help that my husband gives me little digs that he thinks are funny- saying things like- "Well- YOU don't have to get up tomorrow morning" or  "Well- what did YOU DO all day today?" UGH!
> 
> It's so crazy, being I am not 42, but 62 and have been working for 46 years non stop! When in high school at age 16 worked every day after school and all school breaks and summers. Same in college. I never went on spring breaks or summer vacations to Florida or wherever like many of the other kids. Worked full time right out of college as well as I got married at age 21 and we bought a handyman special house before the wedding.
> 
> You would think at this stage of life a person that has worked all their life and lived responsibly should not have to feel this way, or worry. So I am hoping this book will be one thing to help me to relax and enjoy.



Life is like a book. You are simply on to a new chapter in life. The best part is you are at the crafting stage of you new chapter so why not take the time and create a chapter that best fits you?  Research on the options you can take in your new chapter. 

The old chapter is complete and has been read. Time to make your new chapter better than the last!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## WinniWoman

You won't believe this. I just received a text from two women I worked with.

One was in regards to him firing the nursing supervisor- one he had hired this year- not that long ago. I must admit- she was a bit wacky herself- but she wanted the phone number to the HR person to report the boss. Hopefully she follows through.

The second one was- WAIT FOR IT! From another coworker who I shared an office with and has been there many years like me -saying that the boss told her to contact me and WANTS ME BACK! HOLY COW!  

I almost fell off my chair!  

She said she thinks it was a pride thing with him. She had asked him when the new marketing woman was starting (another coworker said she though she saw a new woman there for the marketing job since the other one quit) and he said- you mean the guy? (I am assuming this is the 1099 guy that the company uses for the other offices that he is not crazy about). She said he told her he wouldn't mind if I came back.She told him she could try to make it happen and he told her to go ahead, but that I quit- not like he fired me.  SMH...

Anyway- I told her to not say anything to him one way or another. My brother said to ask for double the salary and make my own hours! Ha! Ha! Ha!

You can't make this stuff up!   Boy-I never expected this!


----------



## Fredflintstone

mpumilia said:


> You won't believe this. I just received a text from two women I worked with.
> 
> One was in regards to him firing the nursing supervisor- one he had hired this year- not that long ago. I must admit- she was a bit wacky herself- but she wanted the phone number to the HR person to report the boss. Hopefully she follows through.
> 
> The second one was- WAIT FOR IT! From another coworker who I shared an office with and has been there many years like me -saying that the boss told her to contact me and WANTS ME BACK! HOLY COW!
> 
> I almost fell off my chair!
> 
> She said she thinks it was a pride thing with him. She had asked him when the new marketing woman was starting (another coworker said she though she saw a new woman there for the marketing job since the other one quit) and he said- you mean the guy? (I am assuming this is the 1099 guy that the company uses for the other offices that he is not crazy about). She said he told her he wouldn't mind if I came back.She told him she could try to make it happen and he told her to go ahead, but that I quit- not like he fired me.  SMH...
> 
> Anyway- I told her to not say anything to him one way or another. My brother said to ask for double the salary and make my own hours! Ha! Ha! Ha!
> 
> You can't make this stuff up!   Boy-I never expected this!



Well if thats the case, wait for the ask. Then decide. However, i would put conditions in place before returning. No need to go from frying pan to fire. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WinniWoman

Fredflintstone said:


> Well if thats the case, wait for the ask. Then decide. However, i would put conditions in place before returning. No need to go from frying pan to fire.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 

OMG. I don't think he has any intention of calling me himself. She claims she thinks it's a pride thing with him.  HUH? This man has no idea what pride even means! LOL!

I could never imagine working for him again- no way in hell. Really- he is a nut.


----------



## Fredflintstone

mpumilia said:


> OMG. I don't think he has any intention of calling me himself. She claims she thinks it's a pride thing with him.  HUH? This man has no idea what pride even means! LOL!
> 
> I could never imagine working for him again- no way in hell. Really- he is a nut.



Good choice. He can just go to......


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Panina

mpumilia said:


> OMG. I don't think he has any intention of calling me himself. She claims she thinks it's a pride thing with him.  HUH? This man has no idea what pride even means! LOL!
> 
> I could never imagine working for him again- no way in hell. Really- he is a nut.


Lol Just another thought...Never say never.  He needs to call, give you a better salary and understand he needs to leave his attitude elsewhere........isn’t it great he knows what he lost !

I still think retirement is a great thing and if you can manage enjoy but if  you have to work and what this co worker told you is true you can go back on your terms and ignore the nut.


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## Patri

Wow. Make sure conditions are favorable to you, maybe even that he is not your boss at all. You report to someone else or no one! Isn't life fun?


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## Sugarcubesea

mpumilia said:


> It's funny because yesterday we had our big annual old friends reunion. Out of all of us (16 in the group, but had a couple cancel due to illness), only 3 were still working, one being my husband. Some have been retired for quite awhile= the ones with good pensions. Some also are landlords so that helps a lot as well. Two - a husband and wife- both just so happened to be let go from their jobs this August- the wife (57) was at hers' for 18 years and the husband 40 years- but the company changed hands several times while he work-ed there so he only got a 3 month's severance package. She walked away with a years salary and health insurance for her and her husband, who only needs it until next December when he turns 65. When his severance ends, he will be able to get unemployment, but he does not intend to go back to work. The wife is undergoing career coaching and will need and wants to go back to work. They live in NYC so she is bound to get something. She really liked her job and had benefits that were beyond sweet so she will probably have a big adjustment in that regard.
> 
> We got to talking about my situation of course and everyone felt I would have had a good lawsuit if the other women at my job would have joined in. They also felt I should have appealed the unemployment claims. Naturally, I explained all my reasons for doing and not doing this and that. Then they of course asked me what I was going to do and if I was retiring and all that stuff. I told them I have only been off for one month and considered myself cautiously unemployed.
> 
> I realized as I was talking I was starting to get worked up. Then it hit me that I will not be over this for awhile yet.
> 
> Just Friday, a previous office supervisor (not director) at the job I worked at had sent me a PM via Facebook asking me to call her- because I had posted an obituary of another women who used to work with us (who quit because of BS) who died suddenly last week of sepsis (very sad - my age). When I called her she also began talking about the job and then about what was done to her and how. Mind you- this was quite a number of years ago. I noticed how worked up she was getting while talking about it and thought- "Gee- she hasn't gotten over this after all these years". In fact- she does not have health insurance and mentioned she went to the YMCA for a free mammogram. (her husband has it at his job but they do not offer spousal coverage. I am not sure why she did not go on ACA coverage- didn't get into it with her).
> 
> So it seems this employer has really done a number on us for sure. But just living life is keeping me busy and I am moving forward for sure!



Wow, this hit a cord for me, your friend who is 57 and got laid off, it stinks that the mature worker keeps getting kicked to the curb... We just got a new President at my company and this guy does not understand that I can not do 2 full time jobs in one 10 hour day... He keeps trying to give me additional assignments and I have to keep saying no, I'm in the middle of open enrollment and now I'm suddenly responsible for all benefits so we can save money and not have a benefit administrator...I do need this job, because they do have really good benefits but I'm not willing to work myself into a grave to keep this job...UGH


----------



## SmithOp

mpumilia said:


> OMG. I don't think he has any intention of calling me himself. She claims she thinks it's a pride thing with him.  HUH? This man has no idea what pride even means! LOL!
> 
> I could never imagine working for him again- no way in hell. Really- he is a nut.



Consider going back as a 1099.  You will be able to justify a higher salary and he cannot tell you how to do the job.  Per IRS rules, 1099 are INDEPEDENT contractors, if he violates those rules you can report the company to IRS.  Several big companies have lost out big time on this.  Microsoft ended up settling for 97 million.

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/13/business/technology-temp-workers-at-microsoft-win-lawsuit.html

I got a call back from IBM after taking an early retirement package at 57, I made 30K more that year but the IRS got most of it with the higher Self Employment tax.  I only lasted a year and was glad to quit and finally retire, but it was nice going home every day after 8 hours while the salaried full timers worked 10-12 hour days.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Fredflintstone

SmithOp said:


> Consider going back as a 1099.  You will be able to justify a higher salary and he cannot tell you how to do the job.  Per IRS rules, 1099 are INDEPEDENT contractors, if he violates those rules you can report the company to IRS.  Several big companies have lost out big time on this.  Microsoft ended up settling for 97 million.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/13/business/technology-temp-workers-at-microsoft-win-lawsuit.html
> 
> I got a call back from IBM after taking an early retirement package at 57, I made 30K more that year but the IRS got most of it with the higher Self Employment tax.  I only lasted a year and was glad to quit and finally retire, but it was nice going home every day after 8 hours while the salaried full timers worked 10-12 hour days.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro



Self employment tax?  Higher income tax for those self employed?  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Fredflintstone said:


> Self employment tax?  Higher income tax for those self employed?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Also the ability to open a SEP-IRA and stuff a huge amount of money in there, pre-tax.  

Every year I max out my SEP-IRA contribution.  Since my marginal tax rate is signficantly higher than any debt charges I will incur, I will even take on debt elsewhere so that I can max that contribution.  

Where else can I get a 35% return on capital?  In some years it's been over 40%.


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## SmithOp

Fredflintstone said:


> Self employment tax?  Higher income tax for those self employed?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



No, the same rate but SE folks pay all of it.  W-2 workers split 50-50 with the employer.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

SmithOp said:


> No, the same rate but SE folks pay all of it.  W-2 workers split 50-50 with the employer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


It shows up as an additional tax obligation on your return.  After you calculate your taxes and apply the same rate that everyone else does based on AGI, the self-employment tax gets added on top of that.  It's also based on pre-tax dollars.  So as a self-employed person you "see" a higher fraction of your income going to taxes than does a conventional employee.

But if you do the SEP-IRA contribution, that money reduces both your income tax and your self-employment tax.  So if you're paying SE at net rate of 7.65% (15.3% tax, but you get to claim half of that as an adjustment to income), and you're in a 25% marginal income tax rate, your true marginal tax is 32.65%.  So sticking $40,000 into a SEP IRA drops your tax bill by over $13,000, and you still have the $40,000 invested a retirement account tax-free until withdrawals. Pretty tough to beat that return.


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## WinniWoman

Sugarcubesea said:


> Wow, this hit a cord for me, your friend who is 57 and got laid off, it stinks that the mature worker keeps getting kicked to the curb... We just got a new President at my company and this guy does not understand that I can not do 2 full time jobs in one 10 hour day... He keeps trying to give me additional assignments and I have to keep saying no, I'm in the middle of open enrollment and now I'm suddenly responsible for all benefits so we can save money and not have a benefit administrator...I do need this job, because they do have really good benefits but I'm not willing to work myself into a grave to keep this job...UGH




Hang in there! OMG- I know how it is during open enrollment. I used to be an account executive with an HMO. That is such a crazy time! I used to get pretty stressed out during that time- which is essentially the Fall for most companies. Long hours. Tight deadlines. I feel your pain! Today companies expect people to work like robots, which I guess is why a lot of them are trying to replace people with them!

As for my 57 year old friend- she worked for a huge communications company that merged with another one this year and hence, the downsizing.She had incredible benefits there- like unlimited sick time for one- and she really liked the job. At least they had the decency to lay her off and give her a years salary and health insurance for her and her husband and also free career coaching. Her 64 year old husband- his company was taken over several times and he survived up until now. He was in advertising- another fast paced, stressful job.


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## WinniWoman

I don't know what to make of it all. At first, when I was contacted I thought- MONEY.  That is the only thing that a job brings that appeals to me. Certainly not the schedule of work and the slavery to a company.

And-Remember, first and foremost, this guy is a sociopath. For all I know he could be thinking I might appeal the unemployment denial (you have 30 days- though I am not going to appeal it) and this could be his way of proving that he offered me my job back and I didn't bite. Who knows how a creep like this thinks? I know for sure I cannot work for him. If he was gone- maybe then. Honestly- even if I didn't report to him, what kind of company keeps someone like him in a director's position? Remember- I have to represent this company when I go out marketing! How can I promote a place that someone like this is in charge of?

My stance is the others in this company- the COO and CEO, etc. -are just as bad as he is. And don't get me started on the former CEO- the one that is still CEO of the doctor group at the center - who originally hired me and whom I worked under all these years. He didn't even have the decency to say goodbye to me- said nothing after all these years. This really has bothered me. Another dirt bag. No- I don't want to be around or represent a place run by dirt bags. 

The woman who called me to tell me- she is known at the company as a "brown-noser"- don't get me wrong- nice and a hard worker- but some people don't trust her- she can be secretive and she does get involved in things that don't concern her most times- but I think she tries to be helpful (which is why she offered to the boss to contact me) and I have been friendly with her these past few years as she and I were in the same office area. 

Just crazy. I have a headache. Let me get back to reading my book- "The Joy of Not Working". I need to do a lot of "work" on "not working", which is more my passion. LOL!


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## WinniWoman

SmithOp said:


> Consider going back as a 1099.  You will be able to justify a higher salary and he cannot tell you how to do the job.  Per IRS rules, 1099 are INDEPEDENT contractors, if he violates those rules you can report the company to IRS.  Several big companies have lost out big time on this.  Microsoft ended up settling for 97 million.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/13/business/technology-temp-workers-at-microsoft-win-lawsuit.html
> 
> I got a call back from IBM after taking an early retirement package at 57, I made 30K more that year but the IRS got most of it with the higher Self Employment tax.  I only lasted a year and was glad to quit and finally retire, but it was nice going home every day after 8 hours while the salaried full timers worked 10-12 hour days.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro



Actually, even with 1099 employees the company draws up a contract of expectations and you have to abide by those.

30K more? I'd be lucky if he paid me 30K total. LOL! 8 hours per day? I am thinking more like 4 hours! Ha! Ha!

My ideal job- Decent salary. Make my own hours. Work from home. Company car if driving involved. 8 weeks PTO. Paid health insurance to age 65. Leave me the hell alone. LOL! Doesn't exist! Ha! Ha!


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## maddog497

No one could expect you to return after everything you have went through. 

I'm Canadian so I don't understand the whole 1099 employee thing, however If you could figure out a way to return (completely under your own conditions) as a 1099 employee for a 6 month or 12 month term would you then be eligible for unemployment if you did not renew your contract when it ended????  You would also want to ensure you get to report to someone other than you last idiot boss and a bunch of other guarantees which you will never get as he was never reasonable before so why would he be now.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different outcome.

If nothing else it appears the hole you left after leaving is now being felt.  Take pride in the fact you were valuable in what you did even if they couldn't admit it then, they are now.


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## geekette

Everything is negotiable.  You don't have to sign as-is any contract.  Whatever 2 parties agree to is what gets enforced.  You are under no obligation to sign anything. Don't forget, YOU have the leverage.    That means that YOU can set terms and conditions.  

I, personally, would have your friend say Call Her Yourself.  Not sure why she'd put herself  in the middle of it.

Please do something else today, don't think about this.  It's not clear that it would be good for you so table it and let your subconscious churn through it while you move along on your happy workfree life.  Money isn't everything, don't let it rule you.  Don't forget, you got out for valid reasons.


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## lockewong

geekette said:


> Everything is negotiable.  You don't have to sign as-is any contract.  Whatever 2 parties agree to is what gets enforced.  You are under no obligation to sign anything. Don't forget, YOU have the leverage.    That means that YOU can set terms and conditions.
> 
> I, personally, would have your friend say Call Her Yourself.  Not sure why she'd put herself  in the middle of it.
> 
> Please do something else today, don't think about this.  It's not clear that it would be good for you so table it and let your subconscious churn through it while you move along on your happy workfree life.  Money isn't everything, don't let it rule you.  Don't forget, you got out for valid reasons.



My thoughts exactly.  Take your time.  Think deeply about your self-worth and emotional needs.  Do no subject yourself to abuse and stress.  Keep you independence if you go back.


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## klpca

geekette said:


> Everything is negotiable.  You don't have to sign as-is any contract.  Whatever 2 parties agree to is what gets enforced.  You are under no obligation to sign anything. Don't forget, YOU have the leverage.    That means that YOU can set terms and conditions.
> 
> I, personally, would have your friend say Call Her Yourself.  Not sure why she'd put herself  in the middle of it.
> 
> Please do something else today, don't think about this.  It's not clear that it would be good for you so table it and let your subconscious churn through it while you move along on your happy workfree life.  Money isn't everything, don't let it rule you.  Don't forget, you got out for valid reasons.


This is spot on advice.


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## am1

Everyone has a price.  

I spend two mornings a week driving $400 in diesel an hour to fill up some heavy equipment.  1 day a week using a machete or chainsaw.  Other time is spent driving workers or buying material. A few hours a week is looking for the next deal.   I walked away (pushed) and am fine with it.  Hopefully i can say the same in 30-40 years.


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## Tia

No way would I ever go back to working under that guy, you've been the done that and no reason to believe it would be different now.


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## b2bailey

OP, I have to admit I was surprised your post continues to appear each day, thinking 'it is done'. I want a new thread from you titled 'This is Me' -- because I am interested in how YOU are doing, but tired of hearing about your old boss. He got 'dropped' from my mind. Hope you can do the same, soon. Best wishes for your next chapter -- anywhere but near him.


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## Quiet Pine

I’ve read this thread since the beginning, and didn’t want to sidetrack Mary Ann’s story by posting this. However, this morning my pension check arrived in my checking account (only a couple of hundred dollars). It made me reflect on my career from 1963 to 2006 and how the workplace changed. The concept of Maximizing Shareholder Value came along in the ‘70s and completely shifted companies’ focus starting in the ‘80s. I saw men in their 50s lose their jobs—I clearly remember how shocked I was. At 55, you had a free ride to retirement! A memo at my company announced that health benefits for future retirees (after the August 18 deadline) were eliminated. It was obvious that companies no longer valued employees or communities—an enormous difference from my post-college jobs starting in the ‘60s. Today, employees be damned—what’s important is making stock market investors rich.

If you’re interested in digging deeper into this, check Wikipedia’s entry Shareholder Value. Also a 2013 article in The Washington Post, “Maximizing Shareholder Value: The Goal that Changed Corporate America.” You can find it online. It focuses on IBM, but explains what happened in business over the past 30+ years.


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## WinniWoman

b2bailey said:


> OP, I have to admit I was surprised your post continues to appear each day, thinking 'it is done'. I want a new thread from you titled 'This is Me' -- because I am interested in how YOU are doing, but tired of hearing about your old boss. He got 'dropped' from my mind. Hope you can do the same, soon. Best wishes for your next chapter -- anywhere but near him.



Absolutely! Just that former coworkers keep texting me with updates! Then I got that call and wow!

So - I just received my 401k $ and had it rolled over into my IRA- so another tie with the hell hole is broken. And- it looks like my car is sold- will know for sure on Saturday. That is the car I bought 5 years ago for the job. I really like it, but no need for 3 cars now and it has almost 100,000 miles on it. Part of me hates to get rid of it- I lived a big portion of my life in that car every day- and the other cars I had for this job. It is almost like part of my body. My life in a car.....

But- I think it will be good spiritually, as well as financially, to get rid of it.


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## vacationtime1

mpumilia said:


> You won't believe this. I just received a text from two women I worked with.
> 
> One was in regards to him firing the nursing supervisor- one he had hired this year- not that long ago. I must admit- she was a bit wacky herself- but she wanted the phone number to the HR person to report the boss. Hopefully she follows through.
> 
> The second one was- WAIT FOR IT! From another coworker who I shared an office with and has been there many years like me -saying that the boss told her to contact me and WANTS ME BACK! HOLY COW!
> 
> I almost fell off my chair!
> 
> She said she thinks it was a pride thing with him. She had asked him when the new marketing woman was starting (another coworker said she though she saw a new woman there for the marketing job since the other one quit) and he said- you mean the guy? (I am assuming this is the 1099 guy that the company uses for the other offices that he is not crazy about). She said he told her he wouldn't mind if I came back.She told him she could try to make it happen and he told her to go ahead, but that I quit- not like he fired me.  SMH...
> 
> Anyway- I told her to not say anything to him one way or another. My brother said to ask for double the salary and make my own hours! Ha! Ha! Ha!
> 
> You can't make this stuff up!   Boy-I never expected this!




You now have confirmation that they needed you more than you needed them.


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## vacationhopeful

Mary Ann ...

I left 2 versions of Corporate America ... over 31+ years ago.

Integrated National Oil Company (my first professional employer with OVER 9 years of work there) sent me back for my MBA (1984 degree) ... 50% paycheck for 12 months, 90% tuition of my tuition & books. (Got last semester paid due to invoice being processed DAYS before the end of my 12 months of separation pay). And the 2nd big company .. think BLUE OVAL DE chemical company as a contractor consultant (my Dad had worked for 46+ years .. til his plant blew up due to its gunpowder production) .... now brought out also. I did ANYTHING I was asked .... my rate was more the DOUBLE my former employer's pay.

I invested that 2nd job's income ... and have not been an employee ... even ONE DAY since. I hire contractors to do work for me on my rental investment properties.

*MY SUGGESTION TO YOU* ... work as an Independent Contractor to your former employer. For a *LOT MORE MONEY* .... write off the mileage, work a 10 hour day/4 days a week. Get a WRITTEN CONTRACT!

Then .. enjoy those 4 day weekends ... just NEVER say "I flew off to the islands" or "..did a 4 day cruise" by stacking your '4 day/10 hours per day' weeks to be a "M-T-W-T with a T-W-T-F"  with every other weekend being "Fri-Sat-Sun-Mon" off schedule.


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## am1

vacationhopeful said:


> Mary Ann ...
> 
> I left 2 versions of Corporate America ... over 31+ years ago.
> 
> Integrated National Oil Company (my first professional employer with OVER 9 years of work there) sent me back for my MBA (1984 degree) ... 50% paycheck for 12 months, 90% tuition of my tuition & books. (Got last semester paid due to invoice being processed DAYS before the end of my 12 months of separation pay). And the 2nd big company .. think BLUE OVAL DE chemical company as a contractor consultant (my Dad had worked for 46+ years .. til his plant blew up due to its gunpowder production) .... now brought out also. I did ANYTHING I was asked .... my rate was more the DOUBLE my former employer's pay.
> 
> I invested that 2nd job's income ... and have not been an employee ... even ONE DAY since. I hire contractors to do work for me on my rental investment properties.
> 
> *MY SUGGESTION TO YOU* ... work as an Independent Contractor to your former employer. For a *LOT MORE MONEY* .... write off the mileage, work a 10 hour day/4 days a week. Get a WRITTEN CONTRACT!
> 
> Then .. enjoy those 4 day weekends ... just NEVER say "I flew off to the islands" or "..did a 4 day cruise" by stacking your '4 day/10 hours per day' weeks to be a "M-T-W-T with a T-W-T-F"  with every other weekend being "Fri-Sat-Sun-Mon" off schedule.



If one can get paid (more then before) and flexible then it can be worth it.  One can always throw out a number and see what happens.  It may be ones last chance.  When I through out my number I knew it would be my last big pay day.


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## Patri

I think the ex-boss or company should formally ask you back, not a middleman. Don't give her a firm answer. Say they need to contact you with details.


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## WinniWoman

vacationhopeful said:


> Mary Ann ...
> 
> I left 2 versions of Corporate America ... over 31+ years ago.
> 
> Integrated National Oil Company (my first professional employer with OVER 9 years of work there) sent me back for my MBA (1984 degree) ... 50% paycheck for 12 months, 90% tuition of my tuition & books. (Got last semester paid due to invoice being processed DAYS before the end of my 12 months of separation pay). And the 2nd big company .. think BLUE OVAL DE chemical company as a contractor consultant (my Dad had worked for 46+ years .. til his plant blew up due to its gunpowder production) .... now brought out also. I did ANYTHING I was asked .... my rate was more the DOUBLE my former employer's pay.
> 
> I invested that 2nd job's income ... and have not been an employee ... even ONE DAY since. I hire contractors to do work for me on my rental investment properties.
> 
> *MY SUGGESTION TO YOU* ... work as an Independent Contractor to your former employer. For a *LOT MORE MONEY* .... write off the mileage, work a 10 hour day/4 days a week. Get a WRITTEN CONTRACT!
> 
> Then .. enjoy those 4 day weekends ... just NEVER say "I flew off to the islands" or "..did a 4 day cruise" by stacking your '4 day/10 hours per day' weeks to be a "M-T-W-T with a T-W-T-F"  with every other weekend being "Fri-Sat-Sun-Mon" off schedule.




Uh- No. Just no. LOL! Thanks, Linda. I know you mean well!


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## WinniWoman

Patri said:


> I think the ex-boss or company should formally ask you back, not a middleman. Don't give her a firm answer. Say they need to contact you with details.




Agree. I told her before I hung up not to say anything to him.

I am actually ignoring the whole thing and going on with my life as an unemployed homemaker - which has always been my passion anyway. Will see how it all turns out, but it's only been a month since I left. Winter is coming. And all is well right now.

Plus, on Saturday if all goes well my car will be sold. Oh, well...


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## Quiet Pine

mpumilia said:


> Winter is coming.


Aware of the season? Or subtle reference to Game of Thrones?


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## WinniWoman

Quiet Pine said:


> Aware of the season? Or subtle reference to Game of Thrones?



LOL! Never saw Game of Thrones. Just- with winter coming- no desire to drive to a job every day in bad weather. Good time to hunker in.


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## WinniWoman

Today-I'm in the car- hubby driving- coming home from having my colonoscopy. I get a Facebook Private Message from that same coworker again saying the boss just was in her office and wanted her to ask me if I was willing to have a conversation with him! She told him she would send me the message and after that she is staying out of it.  I told her I just had a medical procedure and wasn't going to deal with it today.

My husband said I should ask for whatever I want. I told him I could not work for him and right now (and maybe forever) didn't want to work at all. If I was in the same room with the guy I would have to spit in his face!

And imagine me attempting to go back there after the Exit Interview where I essentially tore him down!?

Meanwhile, we are expecting our first snow storm on Thursday and I am happy to not have to worry about driving to work in it. And- on Saturday I have a funeral to go to for one of my ex-coworkers (sad- a great and popular guy- only in his 50's- lung cancer) and I suspect he and the other former bosses and some docs will be attending...


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## Patri

The guy is such a coward. He should contact you directly. Is there anything you can do at the company that does not involve him or driving?


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## MULTIZ321

b2bailey said:


> OP, I have to admit I was surprised your post continues to appear each day, thinking 'it is done'. I want a new thread from you titled 'This is Me' -- because I am interested in how YOU are doing, but tired of hearing about your old boss. He got 'dropped' from my mind. Hope you can do the same, soon. Best wishes for your next chapter -- anywhere but near him.


+1 for starting a new thread

Richard


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## WinniWoman

Patri said:


> The guy is such a coward. He should contact you directly. Is there anything you can do at the company that does not involve him or driving?



Agree 

No-The center is a local one- he's in charge. Basically employs techs, nurses and front desk people. The marketing job is the best in my opinion because you are out most of the time.

Anyway- I already sold my car! LOL!


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## WinniWoman

MULTIZ321 said:


> +1 for starting a new thread
> 
> Richard



I am trying to put this one down. I thought I was done after my past post- but then this turned up today. It shows how I am trying to move on but this guy just keeps popping back. Hopefully this is the end of it.


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## HitchHiker71

mpumilia said:


> I am trying to put this one down. I thought I was done after my past post- but then this turned up today. It shows how I am trying to move on but this guy just keeps popping back. Hopefully this is the end of it.



Malignant narcissists tend to do exactly that.  Don’t fall for it, stay far far FAR AWAY!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Panina

mpumilia said:


> Today-I'm in the car- hubby driving- coming home from having my colonoscopy. I get a Facebook Private Message from that same coworker again saying the boss just was in her office and wanted her to ask me if I was willing to have a conversation with him! She told him she would send me the message and after that she is staying out of it.  I told her I just had a medical procedure and wasn't going to deal with it today.
> 
> My husband said I should ask for whatever I want. I told him I could not work for him and right now (and maybe forever) didn't want to work at all. If I was in the same room with the guy I would have to spit in his face!
> 
> And imagine me attempting to go back there after the Exit Interview where I essentially tore him down!?
> 
> Meanwhile, we are expecting our first snow storm on Thursday and I am happy to not have to worry about driving to work in it. And- on Saturday I have a funeral to go to for one of my ex-coworkers (sad- a great and popular guy- only in his 50's- lung cancer) and I suspect he and the other former bosses and some docs will be attending...


Wow, at minimum he knows what an asset he lost.  It would be interesting to hear what he has to say.  It would also give you the opportunity to say what you want to him and that might give your full closure.  If you did go back he will always be an idiot but you would go back on your terms and if you ignored him he would leave you alone.


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## pedro47

OP!  You must have a plan?  Do you have a plan of attack / objective?  What is your plan?

As an independent contractor you should negotiate your actual salary higher. Start at the salary point, what you were earning when you left that position and asked for more. Remember this you are now not entitled to any more company benefits. Factor that into your negotiation figure. You should set your own working hours schedule and your time off schedule in advance.

Ask for a written contract with full disclosure.

Set how long, you want or need to work for this company in the back to of your mind. However, do not discuss or tell anyone of your plans.

Good luck.


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## WinniWoman

Right now he has the clinical supervisor and the front desk supervisor going out today to do my job for a few hours. LOL!


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## bogey21

Panina said:


> It would be interesting to hear what he has to say.



I'm a great believer in listening.  You may be offered a great deal.  But if you don't have the conversation, you will never know...

George


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## DrQ

If you are considering going back as a contractor:

Determine how many vacation days you want
Determine any sick time you may think you need
Count the holidays in the year
Determine what it would cost to buy insurance.
Add the full Social Security withholding which you will have to pay.
Calculate that when you negotiate your rate. 
Get in writing what the job entails and what is expected to perform the job satisfactory. Make sure it is measurable. Check the boxes to keep the expectations in line.
Negotiate the contract the 6 months at a time.
Use a lawyer.


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## WinniWoman

Thank you all, but as HitchHiker71 said- this guy is a narcissist. I have more self esteem than to subject myself to going back there after all I went through. What would that say about me? 

The way I feel is the conversation would be over immediately after I spit in his face.


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## DrQ

Nothing is more satisfying than a narcissist on a short leash.


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## am1

You may not be wrong but it depends what your other options are as far as getting paid and if you need that.  Do not look at it as winning if you go back, even under your own terms as he will still benefit from you but think of it in terms of money or long term security.  Most likely he cares nothing about you but only how you can benefit the company (him).  

Given the opportunity I would throw out a crazy number at a minimum.  



mpumilia said:


> Thank you all, but as HitchHiker71 said- this guy is a narcissist. I have more self esteem than to subject myself to going back there after all I went through. What would that say about me?
> 
> The way I feel is the conversation would be over immediately after I spit in his face.


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## geekette

am1 said:


> Everyone has a price.



I don't think so.  

There are some hellholes I would not revisit for quadruple salary.  Life is too short to chase money over happiness.  I won't accept fancy dollars to endure unbearable stress.  Work is one aspect of life, I won't build my life around it.


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## geekette

Patri said:


> I think the ex-boss or company should formally ask you back, not a middleman. Don't give her a firm answer. Say they need to contact you with details.


YES.  Shows what a weak weasel he is.


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## geekette

mpumilia said:


> Thank you all, but as HitchHiker71 said- this guy is a narcissist. I have more self esteem than to subject myself to going back there after all I went through. What would that say about me?
> 
> The way I feel is the conversation would be over immediately after I spit in his face.


LOL

You go, Girl!!   I LOVE IT.


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## WinniWoman

One of my coworkers just told me he will not close early this year the day before Thanksgiving. Used to be "early" for this company was 5pm, which i still thought was ridiculous. Now he told the staff they are staying open until 9pm. This announced just one week before the holiday. I told her to call out but she took the day off already -  lucky for her.

Right now it is snowing and I am so glad to not have to be driving in it today or tomorrow. Sitting by the fire with a glass of wine just waiting for my husband to get home from work and then all is well.


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## Panina

mpumilia said:


> One of my coworkers just told me he will not close early this year the day before Thanksgiving. Used to be "early" for this company was 5pm, which i still thought was ridiculous. Now he told the staff they are staying open until 9pm. This announced just one week before the holiday. I told her to call out but she took the day off already -  lucky for her.
> 
> Right now it is snowing and I am so glad to not have to be driving in it today or tomorrow. Sitting by the fie with a glass of wine just waiting for my husband to get home from work and then all is well.


Cheers you have your answer


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## vacationhopeful

My sister called me a few minutes ago to invite me to her home for Thanksgiving. 

Mary Ann  ....  Make and enjoy your plans for Thanksgiving 2018 ... the start of your NEW life without this employer's (NOT)_ helpfulness_ ...  (Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's Eve, Martin Lurther King, President's Weekend, Easter, Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day .. repeat again and again) ......  plans for you & your family & friends.


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## WinniWoman

vacationhopeful said:


> My sister called me a few minutes ago to invite me to her home for Thanksgiving.
> 
> Mary Ann  ....  Make and enjoy your plans for Thanksgiving 2018 ... the start of your NEW life without this employer's (NOT)_ helpfulness_ ...  (Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's Eve, Martin Lurther King, President's Weekend, Easter, Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day .. repeat again and again) ......  plans for you & your family & friends.




Awesome! Enjoy your sister and your whole family on the holiday! 

My brother and his family are coming to our home from downstate and our son is coming down from NH- the only time he comes home during the year. So looking forward to it.

So- yes- I am planning to have a wonderful holiday! Thanks!


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## WinniWoman

OK. Sorry to post again but I just had to share.

My cell phone rang today and i saw it was the number from my old job. I figured one of my ex-coworkers was calling to tell me something. I answer and it is- drum roll- the Sociopath boss!!

I was taken back. He started to say he was thinking about me and wondering how I was doing. (Umm- really? You suddenly care how I am doing?). I asked  him what was up- why he was calling. He said he was just thinking about me at Thanksgiving being he was at his "crazy" mom's house and how I was the only one he ever opened up to about his mom. (OK- what  the?!). He said he misses how we used to talk- I can't even remember everything he said but he was talking to me like he would have before he became the boss- like the guy I knew before all this. The innocent, little boy type personality. OMG!

I tell him I do not know what to say (when I really wanted to tell him to go- you know what). He again asks how I am. Said he misses having me at the job. I stay silent. I tell him I am on my way out to take my husband for his eye surgery. (which is not true- it is later today).

Again, I said hardly anything and he kept trying to make like he cared what I was up to. He asked if I was working- I said no, just chilling for now. 

The woman whom he asked to contact me before said he came in and told her he didn't believe that she was sending me his messages so he asked for my cell number and she gave it to him.

Well isn't that just like a narcissist to not believe someone would not respond to his messages?

I eventually just said yes and goodbye after his numerous times telling me he was just wondering if I was ok.

You can't make this stuff up.


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## DaveNV

I’m thinking less narcissist and more schizophrenic. At minimum, bipolar.

Dave


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## clifffaith

I was making "yuck faces" as I read this. The man is really unbelievable.


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## Fredflintstone

What’s next?  This dude parked out front your home equipped with night vision goggles and shades?  My, my, my


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## LisaH

I want to believe that he just had a moment of reckoning and realized how destructive his behavior had been to the business and relationship with his coworkers/subordinates, and wanted to make amends to you


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## Passepartout

Reminds me of a drunk calling a former girlfriend hoping that the past has been forgotten. Don't answer that incoming number again. No good can come of it.

Jim


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## pedro47

Just be careful and watch your back. Suggestion Only.  Please keep notes every time he calls you and the subject matters. Something could be up. Just be careful.


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## VacationForever

He has a crush on you and made it difficult for you while you were working there as that was the only way he could express his interest in you. LOL


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## WinniWoman

LisaH said:


> I want to believe that he just had a moment of reckoning and realized how destructive his behavior had been to the business and relationship with his coworkers/subordinates, and wanted to make amends to you



Umm- no.


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## vacationhopeful

"Restraining" and "NO CONTACT" orders from your Police Department serviced on HIM. ... that would be my "what is next" answer.

And then send copies of the police's NO CONTACT orders to corporate HR (directly from the police department if possible) or in an envelope from the police department. ie That is another "point of notice to him" that SOMEONE else might open.

I have dealth with all types of people in my day job. There is a reason I use ONLY a Post Office box .... (and not near the same town I live in). And I always check who is ringing my doorbell from another point in the house (not via the door peephole). I remind friends me to CALL before coming over or call me before getting out of their cars.

And NO, I do not carry. But I have been stalked my an ex-bf decades ago. I learned a LOT then.


PS My day job? Simple, I make people HOMELESS if they don't pay me. (Legally, thru the court state system.) And I am NOT lawyer.


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## am1

Seems you took the high road.


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## Panina

Just weird weird weird.  If he had asked about you coming back to work or apologized for his behavior I would say the call was what it is.   Nut job as you said all along.  Best that you were pleasant and don’t pick your phone up again when you see the number.


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## Talent312

vacationhopeful said:


> "Restraining" and "NO CONTACT" orders from your Police Department served on HIM. ... that would be my "what is next" answer.


_... sounds nice, but..._
A phone call which is merely uninvited, and annoying or weird, is typically not sufficient to get a no-contact order.

No contact orders are typically issued by a judge who reviews a petition. It must show, typically, an act of violence, repeated threats, or a pattern of harassment which creates a reasonable fear of violence. The other party gets an expedited opportunity to be heard. OTOH, a series of nuisance phone calls can be a crime called "harassing phone calls," and result in a no-contact order.
.


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## WinniWoman

Panina said:


> Just weird weird weird.  If he had asked about you coming back to work or apologized for his behavior I would say the call was what it is.   Nut job as you said all along.  Best that you were pleasant and don’t pick your phone up again when you see the number.



Right. He keeps saying he misses having me there. He is concerned about me and wondering how I was doing.  Instead of being direct and saying “I want you to come back and this is what I have to offer you. I am sorry about how I treated you...etc.”

He probably did not use his cell phone on purpose because he thought I would recognize that number. So he called from the main line in the facility.

He’s a scary person for sure.


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## Talent312

I suggest that, if he contacts you again, you make it clear that you don't want to hear from him again.

You don't have to make it about him. You could say something like, "I'm trying to move on with my life, and talking to people from work makes that difficult for me." It's like the ol' "it's not you, it's me" line... which means "it's me not liking you."
.


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## pedro47

To the OP, suggestion only please read Talent312 post three times. This is your answer.


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## Patri

The guy is not going to harass her. Sheesh. How would that get her to come back to work? He was feeling his way and knows he was a dope. He doesn't have the courage to apologize and say what he really wants. It will fizzle on its own. Mary Ann is quite capable of handling this.


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## bbodb1

Just to offer a thought to lighten things up a bit - I'm thinking of this:


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