# I don't understand the "skim"?



## rthib (Oct 16, 2010)

I see people complaining about "the skim", but maybe I am missing something.

If I own a week at a property and want to use my week there, I don't have to pay anything extra - so what is the skim?

I assume it is people saying that under the new program if I deposit my week for points and wanted to use those points back at my home resort for the same week, it costs more than I got it points.

But under the old program, if I deposit my week with II and wanted to trade back into my same property, I would have to pay an exchange fee.

Or am I missing something.


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## m61376 (Oct 16, 2010)

Legacy weeks can still be used to reserve at your home resort, or to trade in II, as you stated. The issue of "skim" is that for many properties and for many weeks you get less points than it would cost to book the same week. While it is true that if you are going to your home resort you can simply book the week using your week, what the lower point allocation means is that you won't have enough points to book something elsewhere of comparable value to what you own, because Marriott didn't give you your full point value of your week.


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## puckmanfl (Oct 16, 2010)

good evening...

yikes, this is sure to "wake up the echoes" but here goes!!!

The skim is essentially your  fee (after enrollment and club dues) to actually convert your units to points and play. It is subtle, expensive but involves more than your home resort. 

Let's start by setting up a scenario where you and I both own weeks that cost 3000 weeks to snag with points.  We would both get 2750 pts for our weeks.  These units are considered equal (3000 pts each) but you can't trade into mine and vice versa. Thus no "like for like" exchanges.  The $250 pts (value of about ($125-$150) is the exchange fee, that compensates for breakage, flexibility, the ability to pick exact time and most importantly, the ability to cancel the reservation.  

As  I pointed out on my thread "a year of usage", the skim is often worth it.  Keep in mind, it is pricey but does open some nice options.  The skim does exist, it is expensive and each customer must decide if it is worth it...

I think the "angst" comes from the fact that MVCD promotes to "bundling" of exchange fees in the $165/$195 club dues but the "skim" is an additional exchange fee...

I would prefer a la carte fees using points.  With the skim a customer doing one exchange withna 5000 pt unit pays the same fee (the skim) as an owner making 5 reservations with the same 5000 pt unit!!!

To me (see a year of usage) the skim is worth the exact dates, bedroom and view required for my needs!!!

To each his or her own!!May the force be with you!!!

To each his or her own!!!!!  May the force be with you!!!


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## DanCali (Oct 16, 2010)

*Skimming 101*



rthib said:


> If I own a week at a property and want to use my week there, I don't have to pay anything extra - so what is the skim?



According to this argument, you could get 500 points for your week but as long as you can use it at your home resort then it's fine. Obviously 500 points would not be fine... 




rthib said:


> I assume it is people saying that under the new program if I deposit my week for points and wanted to use those points back at my home resort for the same week, it costs more than I got it points.



You need to realize that once you elect to convert to points you have no home resort anymore. You just have a bunch of points which you can use to try to exchange to some 50 resorts, including what you refer to as your "home resort". Whether you exchange to your "home resort" (if you have enough points for a certain week) or elsewhere is neither here nor there.



rthib said:


> But under the old program, if I deposit my week with II and wanted to trade back into my same property, I would have to pay an exchange fee.
> 
> Or am I missing something.



But you are paying Marriott $169/$199 a year - and that is whether you use your week as a week or exchange to points. The skim is a hidden fee on top of that

So the question remains - why is there a skim? What is the right number of points to give you for your week? And what did you actually get?

When you think about it, you have the right to a week in a season. Marriott "reseasoned" everything and now different weeks in that season may require different points to trade into. But the only allocation which does not overallocate or underallocate points to owners is giving each owner the average points required to trade into their week. Anything else and Marriott would either give out too many points (illegal) or give out too few points (the "skim" case - which is points left in Marriott's pocket). Based on the average points required to trade into an owner's season - all owners at all resorts got shortchanged. If points representy trading power, getting skimmed impacts your ability to make "like for like" trades.

For your convenience, you can look up the average points required to trade into your season here.

And there is also "Skimming 201" - the lockoff skim... in most cases a 1BR plus a studio require more points to trade into than the 2BR lockoff. We'll leave that one for another time.


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## BocaBoy (Oct 16, 2010)

DanCali said:


> When you think about it, you have the right to a week in a season. Marriott "reseasoned" everything and now different weeks in that season may require different points to trade into. But the only allocation which does not overallocate or underallocate points to owners is giving each owner the average points required to trade into their week. Anything else and Marriott would either give out too many points (illegal) or give out too few points (the "skim" case - which is points left in Marriott's pocket). Based on the average points required to trade into an owner's season - all owners at all resorts got shortchanged. If points represent trading power, getting skimmed impacts your ability to make "like for like" trades.
> 
> And there is also "Skimming 201" - the lockoff skim... in most cases a 1BR plus a studio require more points to trade into than the 2BR lockoff.



I am not happy at all with some of the things Marriott is doing in relation to the new program, but I have no issues at all with what is being called the "skim".  It is entirely logical to me.


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## DanCali (Oct 16, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> I am not happy at all with some of the things Marriott is doing in relation to the new program, but I have no issues at all with what is being called the "skim".  It is entirely logical to me.



Do you want to elaborate why it is logical for Marriott to confiscate 7% to 13% of points from converting weeks owners? And then also have the audacity to say "$169/$199 and done"?


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## wuv pooh (Oct 16, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Do you want to elaborate why it is logical for Marriott to confiscate 7% to 13% of points from converting weeks owners? And then also have the audacity to say "$169/$199 and done"?



The logic is that $169/$199 is the true "all in" fee for everything you used to do in the previous year, with the exception of non Marriott trades.  "Skim" is the cost of using the new exchange system and the flexibility/new options that it provides, but no one is required to use it.  

No one is by choice worse off under the new system than they were before but everyone now has an additional exhange option if they believe it benefits them.  If you think the fee to join is too high, don't like the options,  or you rarely/never exchange then you are free to stay with the old exchange company or no exchange company.


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## DanCali (Oct 16, 2010)

wuv pooh said:


> The logic is that $169/$199 is the true "all in" fee for everything you used to do in the previous year, with the exception of non Marriott trades.  "Skim" is the cost of using the new exchange system and the flexibility/new options that it provides, but no one is required to use it.



Then why are the Marriott salespeople not mentioning the skim at all? Why are they not telling people what the average points in the season is? If it is an exchange fee, fair enough - but the $169/$199 is advertised as the only fee to use the system. This is, at best, misleading... a creative class action lawyer may even paint it as borderline fraud... If it is a fee (and I also agree that it is) then they should be open about it and call it that.



wuv pooh said:


> No one is by choice worse off under the new system.



I beg to differ. If you just mostly use your week you are a lot worse off. You pay an exorbitant initiation fee (a multiple of what any other exchange company charges) and pay $169/$199 more every year for something you are not using. If RCI charged people $600 (let alone $2000) to join wouldn't you say that was a ripoff? What makes the Marriott system anything but a ripoff in that sense. But the way, RCI recently waived its initiation fee...

You are also worse off in terms of your rights as an owner. How about the fact that everyone who joins gives up the right to vote against Marriott's interests. And anyone who says this doesn't matter should think why it mattered so much to Marriott to include this clause...


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## rthib (Oct 16, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Legacy weeks can still be used to reserve at your home resort, or to trade in II, as you stated. The issue of "skim" is that for many properties and for many weeks you get less points than it would cost to book the same week. While it is true that if you are going to your home resort you can simply book the week using your week, what the lower point allocation means is that you won't have enough points to book something elsewhere of comparable value to what you own, because Marriott didn't give you your full point value of your week.



So under the old program, I could trade my current week for a comparable week for free? - I don't seem to remember that.

As I recall there was a fee for that.


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## DanCali (Oct 16, 2010)

rthib said:


> So under the old program, I could trade my current week for a comparable week for free? - I don't seem to remember that.
> 
> As I recall there was a fee for that.



Nobody said you could do it for free with II.

If you are saying the skim is an exchange fee, you are correct. But Marriott is not selling it as a fee, are they?. In fact, they tell people the annual fee ($169/$199) is the only fee they pay. Has any salesperson voluntarily talked about skim as a fee or even mention it at all?

Now if you want to compare the skim as a fee to the II fee then here is the difference: 

With II you pay a fee and you get to do "like for like" exchanges. Savvy Tuggers very often manage to even trade up in II.

In Marriott's point exchange system you pay the annual fee plus the skimming fee. The skim guarantees that you cannot do "like for like" exchanges. The only trades you can do are downtrades. Just take a look at the II trades reported here since June 20 and you will see that at least 4 out of 5 of them are impossible to do with points. 

So the skim is a lot worse than a fee, because it eats into your trading power. Puckmanfl explained it in two sentences:



> Let's start by setting up a scenario where you and I both own weeks that cost 3000 weeks to snag with points. We would both get 2750 pts for our weeks. These units are considered equal (3000 pts each) but you can't trade into mine and vice versa.


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## KathyPet (Oct 17, 2010)

I also do not see the big deal with the "skim".  If I want to use my week at my home resort I am fine.  If I want to trade through II for another resort I can do that just as I always have.  If I want a Marriott to Marriott like exchange why would I ever convert my week to DC points to do that?  I think that the people who are upset are those who used to be able to upgrade from lesser seasons to better seasons or those who could exchange smaller units for larger ones because that ability is not there with the DC point system but Marriott never promised you a "upgrade" even before the points system was established.  If you were able to grab a better season or a larger unit then that's wonderful but you were never promised that.  I bought the season and size and view I wanted so that I could always get what I preferred.  Nothing left to chance. For people who bought lesser seasons, or sizes and hoped to upgrade well Marriott never promised you a rose garden.


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## vacationmama (Oct 17, 2010)

No Marriott never promised a rose garden but these trades helped other owners because their maintenance fees helped keep the resort in good shape. If those weeks never sold think of what the maintenance fees would be for prime week owners!


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## puckmanfl (Oct 17, 2010)

good morning...
Kathy...

MVCD has created a new "points based" exchange system that complements and competes with II.  This system has some fabulous features,many of which I have already used..

Date certainty.
The ability to pick exact times, views etc
short stays
the ability to discern from 1st, second and third choices
the ability not to reddem your week UNTIL you have a points reservation (can't wait list however)
The ability to cancel!!!

The system can be great but it comes with a new exchange fee "the skim"

There are three fees to use this..
$695/$1495/$1995 initiation fee.. (ticket to the dance)
$165/$195 club fee to replace the old II
the skim (5%-10%) is the fee to actually use the points based features!!!

To me it is no biggie (because I love the flexibility and have tons o' points).  The problem is that it is hidden and not advertised!!!  Go back to your vacation club website!!  It states we have a new product "points based" that can be accessed for an initiation fee and ONE yearly billed club dues.  A potential enrollee cannot even see how many points their legacy weeks snags until they click the ENROLL button on the website!!!  It is very similar to those fine print things you see in most ads, except there is no fine print until you see the process!!  You also cannot see point charts to get a unit omn the site until you start enrolling!!!

The skim is also a progressive tax.  Assume a 5% skim.  If I trade a 6900 pt ski week for a 6900 pt Hawaii week my fee is 345 pts. ($200).  If I a trade a lesser week valued at 1000 pts for a lesser week my fee is 50 pts for the SAME one transaction!!!

If MVCD lost the skim and had some reasonble a la carte usage fees, we would be singing the praises and jumping thru hoops...

p.s  II inventory has to decline.  The a huge component of II inventory is controlled by MVCD (foreclosures, delinquencies and MR point trades).  These now go into DC... I believe it is a small but real component.  I scan II daily and there is a clear  decline in avilable units (mostly off season to be sure)


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## wuv pooh (Oct 17, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I beg to differ. If you just mostly use your week you are a lot worse off. You pay an exorbitant initiation fee (a multiple of what any other exchange company charges) and pay $169/$199 more every year for something you are not using. If RCI charged people $600 (let alone $2000) to join wouldn't you say that was a ripoff? What makes the Marriott system anything but a ripoff in that sense. But the way, RCI recently waived its initiation fee...
> 
> You are also worse off in terms of your rights as an owner. How about the fact that everyone who joins gives up the right to vote against Marriott's interests. And anyone who says this doesn't matter should think why it mattered so much to Marriott to include this clause...



If you truly felt this way then why would you join?  You are making yourself worse off by your own choice  

Personally, my total skim is only ~ 5% and is less than my previous exchange fees at the Marriott discount through II, I thought 800 plus points and 3,500 MR points (Marriott Visa) was a good deal for my $700 initiation fee, I liked the fact that I could immediately book Grande Ocean on the phone without any waiting, and I do not wish to vote for my resorts to unenroll from the exchange company that I have joined.  YMMV.

Also the Redskins will whup the Dolts


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## DanCali (Oct 18, 2010)

wuv pooh;999508Also the Redskins will whup the Dolts :cheer:[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> That was quite a bold guarantee...


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## dioxide45 (Oct 18, 2010)

wuv pooh said:


> and I do not wish to vote for my resorts to unenroll from the exchange company that I have joined.  YMMV.



I think there is more to it than just voting to pull resorts from the exchange program.


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## windje2000 (Oct 18, 2010)

wuv pooh said:


> ..... I do not wish to vote for my resorts to unenroll from the exchange company that I have joined.  YMMV.



You will be forced "to vote for your resorts to unenroll from the exchange company" if that's what Marriott wants.

You will not be able to vote in favor of unenrolling if Marriott doesn't want that, and that question is put to a vote,


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## kjd (Oct 18, 2010)

Here's what the OP is missing.  Is the "skim" merely Marriott's way of recovering costs of the points program?  

The so-called "skim" is not to cover any imaginary costs that Marriott will have with the new program IMO.  The points program costs Marriott virtually nothing more than they were previously spending.  It's more about profit.  They have created more inventory to sell without having to build another resort.

Legacy owners have already paid for seven days usage at their home resort.  With the points system there is no home resort if you convert to points.  The original sales pitch to legacy owners before purchase was that you would always have seven days at your home resort and that you would have title to a deeded piece of real estate in perpetuity.  The new pitch is "flexibility".  

It's beyond me how you can lose one or two yearly vacation days, your home resort status (you have no deed), be subjected to a points devaluation in the future (see MRP's experience) and; pay them an initiation fee plus a yearly fee of $169/$199 for their right to do it.  Marriott has not stayed in business by being stupid.


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## wuv pooh (Oct 18, 2010)

kjd said:


> Legacy owners have already paid for seven days usage at their home resort.  With the points system there is no home resort if you convert to points.  The original sales pitch to legacy owners before purchase was that you would always have seven days at your home resort and that you would have title to a deeded piece of real estate in perpetuity.  The new pitch is "flexibility".
> 
> It's beyond me how you can lose one or two yearly vacation days, your home resort status (you have no deed), be subjected to a points devaluation in the future (see MRP's experience) and; pay them an initiation fee plus a yearly fee of $169/$199 for their right to do it.  Marriott has not stayed in business by being stupid.



People are consistently confusing two points:

1. You can join an exchange system if you choose.  Most Marriott owners have used II in the past.  You now have an additional option to use "Marriott Exchange System".  You pay a fee to join this new system.  It is currently priced very attractively if you do a lot of locking off and trading through II.  Many people have a short payback due to the "one fee" concept.  Whether this will continue in the future is unknown, but it can be a good deal for most multi week owners.  If you don't like the new exchange system, future fees, etc. then you will cancel your enrollment - no harm no foul.

2. Once you join an exchange system you have to elect how to exchange.  If you join the "Marriott Exchange System" you receive an II account and can exchange as you have in the past.  No change except you now have a one fee unless you exchange out of Marriott.  You can also elect to convert to points and trade that way.  Then you are subject to skim and any other number of apocalyptic potentialities.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  For me, I converted and instantly confirmed 6 nights mid summer for Grande Ocean.  My 800 "Plus Points" for enrolling bought 2.13 nights at 375 points each.  Those rent for $500 in the summer so I feel the 'value to me' of joining was $1,066 so I was paid to join.  Others will believe differently.  I still have enough points to book some full weeks in gold season at Harbour Lake so I am no worse off there or I could book a 1bd and save points and bank them, etc.

I did receive only 6 nights instead of 7, so I did lose some value by doing the exchange vs. the previous system.  However, I did not expect to consistently exchange my cheaper week for a prime beach week that cost twice as much plus higher annual fees.  I also did not have to wait for an exchange and got the exact resort I wanted without having to play the II lottery.  So I gave up something and I got something.  I feel satisfied, but not everyone will.  That is what makes a market.


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## wuv pooh (Oct 18, 2010)

DanCali said:


> That was quite a bold guarantee...



So close and yet so far away    :ignore:


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## DanCali (Oct 18, 2010)

kjd said:


> Legacy owners have already paid for seven days usage at their home resort.  With the points system there is no home resort if you convert to points.



But this is not that much different than doing a deposit first with II. In fact, it is identical. Once you convert to points you lose your home resort privilege and reservation and you get some points representing your trading power. The problem with the skim is that the trading power you get is less than what you gave Marriott. So you are guaranteed to trade down.



kjd said:


> It's beyond me how you can lose one or two yearly vacation days, your home resort status (you have no deed), be subjected to a points devaluation in the future (see MRP's experience) and; pay them an initiation fee plus a yearly fee of $169/$199 for their right to do it.  Marriott has not stayed in business by being stupid.



Only Marriott can do this to Marriott owners. 

Imagine a new unproven exchange company charging $600-$2000 to join, guaranteeing trading down only for an annual fee, and offering no ability to do "request first" - give them your week and trust them to have the inventory you want so you can trade down. How many people would join that company based on that description? Now call that company Marriott Vacation Club Destinations and you get 22,000 enrollments in 3 months. 

It's certainly not the product - the points product is as lackluster as my description above... but it's how they package it. It's truly art form selling an expensive product to people who don't need it, and in many cases doing it for a second or a third time.


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## MALC9990 (Oct 18, 2010)

vacationmama said:


> No Marriott never promised a rose garden but these trades helped other owners because their maintenance fees helped keep the resort in good shape. If those weeks never sold think of what the maintenance fees would be for prime week owners!



Surely that is not correct - unsold weeks remain with the developper - in this case MVCI and thus MVCI pick up and pay the MFs for all the unsold weeks. Of course they get the voting rights too !!


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## BocaBoy (Oct 19, 2010)

KathyPet said:


> I also do not see the big deal with the "skim".  If I want to use my week at my home resort I am fine.  If I want to trade through II for another resort I can do that just as I always have.  If I want a Marriott to Marriott like exchange why would I ever convert my week to DC points to do that?  I think that the people who are upset are those who used to be able to upgrade from lesser seasons to better seasons or those who could exchange smaller units for larger ones because that ability is not there with the DC point system but Marriott never promised you a "upgrade" even before the points system was established.  If you were able to grab a better season or a larger unit then that's wonderful but you were never promised that.  I bought the season and size and view I wanted so that I could always get what I preferred.  Nothing left to chance. For people who bought lesser seasons, or sizes and hoped to upgrade well Marriott never promised you a rose garden.



Well said.


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## DanCali (Oct 19, 2010)

KathyPet said:


> I also do not see the big deal with the "skim".
> 
> If I want to use my week at my home resort I am fine.
> 
> ...





BocaBoy said:


> Well said.



What KathyPet seems to be saying is that the only things the DC is good for are (i)  potentially saving on lockoff and exchange fees if one trades enough to achieve those savings (but still trading with II), or (ii) trading down using points.

If my understanding is correct then I agree as well!

So the next logical questions to ask is - how does a points program that highlights cost savings and trading down compare to competition? And if anyone else but Marriott tried to sell you on these "benefits", would you join for $600-$2000?

If I was offered a points program that allowed "like for like" exchanges (even for a reasonable a-la-carte fee), request first, and flexchange for a competitive (i.e., free) enrollment fee I would totally consider it. The current offering is a ripoff. I see no other way to describe it.


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## Fredm (Oct 19, 2010)

DanCali said:


> What KathyPet seems to be saying is that the only things the DC is good for are (i)  potentially saving on lockoff and exchange fees if one trades enough to achieve those savings (but still trading with II), or (ii) trading down using points.
> 
> If my understanding is correct then I agree as well!
> 
> ...



Dan, the skim is the price for the convenience and flexibility of making less than weekly reservations. 
The rest of it applies to the cost vs savings of doing what is otherwise done weekly.
Two separate considerations (or one overall consideration).
That's why it may be appealing to some, and not others.


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## DanCali (Oct 19, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Dan, the skim is the price for the convenience and flexibility of making less than weekly reservations.



Yes, sometimes it is convenient to make less than 7 days reservations. In fact, we'll be in Kauai for 10 days in 2011 - 7 days at Waiohai and 3 days at Westin Princeville. That was out of choice.

The problem is that the skim presents the chicken and the egg problem. Is it a fee for convenience to make short reservations (if so why is everyone paying it?) or does the presence of the skim cause people to make short reservations because they are short of points for a full week? 

If the idea is that there is a fee for short reservations, isn't that already embedded in the fact that weekends cost more points (my guess is 90% of reservations that are less than 7 days include the weekend). 

And even if the skim were "the price for convenience" - it is certainly not presented as such by Marriott. If you ask what the fees are, the answer will be $165/$195 flat annual fee. Has anyone been told about the "skim" by Marriott without bringing it up first?


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## kjd (Oct 19, 2010)

What is the allure of having the ability to book a resort for less than a week?  Several people have mentioned it.  I suppose the answer is that it will cost less points to do it.  Since there is a "skim", a points member is not getting a full week as it is.  Why would you pay extra for this "right" when you could book a legacy week and simply leave early?  I don't understand why this "advantage" is given as a reason to join the points program.


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## DanCali (Oct 19, 2010)

kjd said:


> What is the allure of having the ability to book a resort for less than a week?  Several people have mentioned it.  I suppose the answer is that it will cost less points to do it.  Since there is a "skim", a points member is not getting a full week as it is.  Why would you pay extra for this "right" when you could book a legacy week and simply leave early?  I don't understand why this "advantage" is given as a reason to join the points program.



I do agree that sometimes you may want to make shorter reservations at some resort or another for some reason or another. Foe example, we spent Memorial Day weekend in Palm Springs (Starwood points), or you may want to spend 4 days on Maui and 4 days in Kauai. But making everyone pay for this type of flexibility in the form of skim doesn't make sense when most people probably just reserve 7 days at a single resort and have been doing that for years. 

A more reasonable explanation is that the skim is a hidden "progressive" fee on top of the "flat" annual fee meant to increase the profitability of the DC system for Marriott, at the expense of owners's trading power and ability to exchange like for like.


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## lapdawg (Oct 19, 2010)

The OP  is correct.  The "skim" argument is horribly overblown.

Consider the options available to a weeks owner enrolled in the DP program:

1.  Exchange for MRP's-DP's/skim not involved in this situation

2.  Book in your home resort in deeded season-DP's/skim not involved here

3.  Trade "up"-the only possible way to do this would be through the weeks system without converting to DP's and therefore skin not involved

4.  Trade "like for like"-Again, this would be done through the weeks system w/o Dp's; skim not involved

5.  Trade "down"- This is the only time the "skim" would come in to play.  But in the vast majority of situations, the value saved by converting to the DP system outweighs the skim effect, as the difference would have been forfeited in the weeks exchange system. 

Ex.-  My week costs 4250 points for someone else to book but I am only given 4000 points to exchange in the DP program.  I book a week that costs me 3000 points.  I'm left with 1000 points that can be used elsewhere.  If we assume the actual value is what it takes to book a week (as opposed to how many DP points I can trade it for) then I spent 4250 points and received 4000 points in exchange value (the skim is 250 points).  However, if I made the same trade under the weeks system, I would have spent 4250 points but only received 3000 points in value.  So by trading down, the skim would have cost me 1250 points.

So why are so many people upset if the only time the skim matters is when I trade down, but doing so still benefits me?  The answer lies in who the skim ultimately goes to.  In a DP points trade down, the 250 skim points in the example above ultimately goes to Marriott.  In the old weeks system, the 1250 point skim went to the owners who were able to trade their lower value week for my higher value week.  The new system will make these trades up much more difficult because any owner with common sense will trade down via the DP system for a 250 point skim rather than trade down via the weeks system for a 1250 point skim.  Remember, for every trade up in the weeks system, another owner has to trade down.

The bottom line is that savvy owners who took advantage of other owners trading down won't be able to do so as readily, making them understandably upset.  For everyone else, the skim essentially has no effect.

That's not to say there aren't other potentially detrimental issues with the DP program, but the skim is vastly overblown, IMO.


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## puckmanfl (Oct 19, 2010)

good afternoon

lapdawg...

congrats!!! Your logic actually makes sense to me!! Well done!!! It is a zero sum game!!!


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## timtax (Oct 19, 2010)

kjd said:


> What is the allure of having the ability to book a resort for less than a week?  Several people have mentioned it.  I suppose the answer is that it will cost less points to do it.  Since there is a "skim", a points member is not getting a full week as it is.  Why would you pay extra for this "right" when you could book a legacy week and simply leave early?  I don't understand why this "advantage" is given as a reason to join the points program.



One answer (in my case) is a job change for a family member where long weekends may be the only way for us to travel for a short time due to a reduction in vacation time. Convenience? More like a temporary necessity for us.


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## kjd (Oct 19, 2010)

lapdawg has just cited 5 reasons not to join the DP program if you are a weeks (legacy) owner. I agree with him that in those options he cites, you can do the same thing as a weeks owner without having to be concerned about the "skim".  It does however beg the question; what does a weeks owner get by joining the points program and paying a $2,000 initial charge and $199 per year dues?  It would appear very little.


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## puckmanfl (Oct 19, 2010)

good afternoon

This is the beauty of the system

MVCD is now selling a new product "points".  Legacy owners are being offered/sold the opportunity to participate.  It ain't cheap!!! There is an initiation fee/club dues and the exchange fee (the skim) used when playing in points.  Except for the theoretical possible slight decrease in II inventory, there is really no negative for a legacy owner to remain "as is" and not join...

For those that choose to avail themselves (and pay the fee) there is some upside!!!  For instance, I needed 3 bedrooms for my hawaii trip, but had 4 ( 2 2b bedroom units at waiohai).  Using points, I changed this to one 3 bedroom, upgraded to Oceanfront from Island view.  I kept the "change" and added sometime to a HHI summer and booked a studio at Park City (to match my previously obtained ski week thru II).  I also snagged a 3bedroom for 6 nighs,plat season in HHI.  My fee for all this was about (600 pts skim 5%).  A value of about $450.  Assuming I could have done these deals with II, it would have been the same in a la carte exchange fee in the old system.


For some it works, for some it doesn't!! Everyone needs to make their own decisions based on their vacation needs!!!


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## Fredm (Oct 19, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> good afternoon
> 
> *This is the beauty of the system
> 
> ...



Exactly...!


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## lapdawg (Oct 19, 2010)

kjd said:


> lapdawg has just cited 5 reasons not to join the DP program if you are a weeks (legacy) owner. I agree with him that in those options he cites, you can do the same thing as a weeks owner without having to be concerned about the "skim".  It does however beg the question; what does a weeks owner get by joining the points program and paying a $2,000 initial charge and $199 per year dues?  It would appear very little.



Huh? Five reasons not to join?  One really good reason to join is option number 5.  If an owner trades down just once in a manner similar to my example he/she saves 1000 points for reuse.  That will easily cover a $595 enrollment fee.  The 800 plus points, depending on how they're used, could also approach that value.  And you still get to keep options number 1-4.  

Add the flexibility of partial weeks (very attractive in my situation-hard to believe the kjd was serious when he couldn't envision how it would be attractive to others ), and the flexibility to bank from year to year depending on what type of vacation we have time/desire for and it was a no-brainer for me.

It's amazing to me how people only see what they want to see when their minds are set.


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## puckmanfl (Oct 19, 2010)

good afternoon...

The best news of all for legacy owners!!! You can uptrade with II, using lockoffs , flexchange, XYZ's and AC's and you can downtrade with points and "KEEP THE CHANGE"

For example my 3775 pt GV week snagged a 6900 pt ski week.  I used points to mix and match the others as for these deals I needed exact dates, times size and views!!!


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## Luckybee (Oct 19, 2010)

lapdawg said:


> Huh? Five reasons not to join?  One really good reason to join is option number 5.  If an owner trades down just once in a manner similar to my example he/she saves 1000 points for reuse.  That will easily cover a $595 enrollment fee.  The 800 plus points, depending on how they're used, could also approach that value.  And you still get to keep options number 1-4.
> 
> Add the flexibility of partial weeks (very attractive in my situation-hard to believe the kjd was serious when he couldn't envision how it would be attractive to others ), and the flexibility to bank from year to year depending on what type of vacation we have time/desire for and it was a no-brainer for me.
> 
> It's amazing to me how people only see what they want to see when their minds are set.



I have to be honest....I really didnt/dont see the point in joining either. The skim was the sole factor that did it for me. If I had been given the same number of points that it would have taken to "trade in" to my home resort we would have been the first in line to join but the sheer dishonesty (my opinion that it equals a ripoff) is what has kept us out. I recognize that we can still book our home resort but Marriott should have given owners the equal "value" of their home property. 

You are correct for us at least....we can't see past the skim !


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## lapdawg (Oct 19, 2010)

Luckybee said:


> I have to be honest....I really didnt/dont see the point in joining either. The skim was the sole factor that did it for me. If I had been given the same number of points that it would have taken to "trade in" to my home resort we would have been the first in line to join but the sheer dishonesty (my opinion that it equals a ripoff) is what has kept us out. I recognize that we can still book our home resort but Marriott should have given owners the equal "value" of their home property.
> 
> You are correct for us at least....we can't see past the skim !



I agree that there are lots of reasons why or why not an individual owner should join.  It really depends on the enrollment fees and how that compares to the actual and perceived benefits of the plan which of course further depends on individual usage patterns.  The DP program clearly isn't for everybody.

My point is that the skim should not be an important factor as it will not come in to play for most usages and when it does the benefits of the program outweigh the detrimental effects of skim.

I'm sure you have other reasons not to join, but if the skim is the main issue, you may be biting off your nose to spite your face.


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## DanCali (Oct 19, 2010)

lapdawg said:


> I'm sure you have other reasons not to join, but if the skim is the main issue, you may be biting off your nose to spite your face.



I agree with the part that the skim is not the biggest negative of the program. There are other, even more negative issues, that make the program a dud. 

The biggest issue that sealed the deal from my perspective is the lack of "request first". There is no way in the world I can live with the high enrollment costs and the skim AND have to give up a home resort reservation that I can rent for $1000 over the cost of MFs for the POSSIBILITY of getting what I want. 

As long as there is no "request first", I wouldn't join even if enrollment was free and there was no skim. So you are right - for me, the skim is not the main issue...


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## GregT (Oct 20, 2010)

lapdawg said:


> My point is that the skim should not be an important factor as it will not come in to play for most usages *and when it does the benefits of the program outweigh the detrimental effects of skim*.
> 
> I'm sure you have other reasons not to join, but if the skim is the main issue, you may be biting off your nose to spite your face.



The benefits?  

Let's review them:

1) You can book any day check-in (that's cool)
2) You can have varying lengths of stay(that's a good thing too)
3) You can choose a smaller room, or better view if you want it (that's terrific)
4) You can book other properties in the system (love it)

But, other (all of them?) points timeshare systems have these identical features as _standard, owner-friendly features_ .

So......if the benefits are standard to any half-way decent points system, why _doesn't _it matter that we, the weeks-owner, only gets 93% (or 86% if you own MOC  )    of the value of our week?        After all, points are our currency to spend for reservations?

Maybe we're just conditioned to weekly reservations, and points seem like a breakthrough (but they're not)?

All, we really really should move on --- skimming sucks --- not even Wyndham does it.    

I've avoided this thread for a week now because it's not worth it.  Skimming is the true cost of admission to the Marriott system, whether we like it or not.  

Let's agree to disagree and talk about where the opportunities are in the system that Marriott has left for us to exploit?

Best,

Greg


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## lapdawg (Oct 20, 2010)

GregT said:


> The benefits?
> 
> Let's review them:
> 
> ...



Greg, the only time the skim comes in to effect is when you trade down.  I was specifically referring to the benefit of retaining and reusing the point differential which outweighs the skim by far.


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## wuv pooh (Oct 20, 2010)

DanCali said:


> The biggest issue that sealed the deal from my perspective is the lack of "request first". There is no way in the world I can live with the high enrollment costs and the skim AND have to give up a home resort reservation that I can rent for $1000 over the cost of MFs for the POSSIBILITY of getting what I want.
> 
> As long as there is no "request first", I wouldn't join even if enrollment was free and there was no skim. So you are right - for me, the skim is not the main issue...



Dan, that is not quite true.  My VOA searched all points availabilities before I converted my weeks to points to make the exchange.  It is true that you cannot do an ongoing automated request first, but you can do it through the VOA and make an instant exchange if you find something you like. I found the process very easy, but it may be more difficult depending on what you are looking for.


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## GregT (Oct 20, 2010)

lapdawg said:


> Greg, the only time the skim comes in to effect is when you trade down.  I was specifically referring to the benefit of retaining and reusing the point differential which outweighs the skim by far.



Lapdawg,

With apologies, I don't see many examples where this actually occurs?  I think the exact opposite is what is happening in practice?  

I did find the following as an example of what you described above, but I don't think this is representative of a real-world trade:

Owner of a week that is worth 4,250 points (such as Frenchman's Cove Platinum, which does not lock-off) and only get a single deposit in II.

That owner decides to deposits their Frenchman's Cove week into II and requests a trade into a 3,000 point property (I'll use 2BR Crystal Shores in the Summer).  In this example, the II trade skimmed the owner the full 1,250 points.

But I would respectfully suggest that's not the trade most MFC Platinum owners want (and get), and the only reason they were skimmed was because they voluntarily requested the trade into the Gold Season Crystal Shores.  

So, unless there are other examples of where this could happen, I respectfully suggest that your comment is much too broad to be widely applicable and that trading down via II is actually extremely rare.    

And on the contrary, the Marriott system, as intentionally designed, institutionalizes trading down through points skimming and through the points charts (Studio plus 1BR no longer equal a 2BR).  And because of the odd points chart, most people will be left with a point fragment of 25/50/100 points, virtually ensuring that person will use points next year (and repeat the skimming process).   

Reasonable people can disagree on whether or not that matters.   

Please recall, I've enrolled and I've redeemed my week for points, so there must be things I like about the system (and there are).  But I recognized that there was a significant cost/trade-off when I made the decision, and I just hope others recognize the same when making their own decisions.  

All the best,

Greg


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## lapdawg (Oct 20, 2010)

GregT said:


> Lapdawg,
> 
> *With apologies, I don't see many examples where this actually occurs?  I think the exact opposite is what is happening in practic*e?
> 
> ...



Greg,

I respectfully disagree.  As Puckman said, it's a zero sum game. You have seen tons of these trades but just didn't recognize them.  Think about every post you have seen in the past where an owner brags about how they traded their weeks up within the Marriott system.  By definition, the owner on the other side traded down.  They just don't get on a BB board to brag about it.  These down trades happen all the time, although admittedly they are voluntary.  Now with the DP program however, the down trader can get much closer to full value.


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## GregT (Oct 20, 2010)

lapdawg said:


> Greg,
> 
> I respectfully disagree.  As Puckman said, it's a zero sum game. You have seen tons of these trades but just didn't recognize them.  Think about every post you have seen in the past where an owner brags about how they traded their weeks up within the Marriott system.  By definition, the owner on the other side traded down.  They just don't get on a BB board to brag about it.  These down trades happen all the time, although admittedly they are voluntary.  *Now with the DP program however, the down trader can get much closer to full value.*



Doesn't this suggest that everyone who uses the DP is down trading (and that Marriott has institutionalized down trading?)  

However, you have made an excellent point -- with II there were a number of trades, voluntary or involuntary -- that were downtrades (often because of the resulting view?).  This makes sense to me -- I would trade my Ocean-Front Studio and would often get an Island View Studio -- drat.   

Further, the Waiohai 2BR _Ocean-View_ owner probably gets a 2BR _Island View_ Ko Olina using Interval International.  So at least they will still have 450 points left over (and Marriott skims 850 points) if they execute this same trade via DP.  I can agree with this too, at least you have something to show from your down trade.   Unfortunately, the skim here does exceed the change, but at least there's change.

Best to all,

Greg


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## dioxide45 (Oct 20, 2010)

lapdawg said:


> Greg,
> 
> I respectfully disagree.  As Puckman said, it's a zero sum game. You have seen tons of these trades but just didn't recognize them.  Think about every post you have seen in the past where an owner brags about how they traded their weeks up within the Marriott system.  By definition, the owner on the other side traded down.  They just don't get on a BB board to brag about it.  These down trades happen all the time, although admittedly they are voluntary.  Now with the DP program however, the down trader can get much closer to full value.



The II system isn't a zero sum game as you suggest. You have to account for developer deposits and people who let deposits expire in to the mix. The weeks that go unused will always be low demand weeks and resorts. So there will be more up trades than down trades. Just because one person trades up, doesn't mean someone else is forced to trade down.


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## rsackett (Oct 20, 2010)

To the original topic "I don't understand the "skim"?, I think that all on TUG that care by now do understand the skim.  

Some do not care about it, and some do.  Some see it a an exchange fee, others see it as an underhanded way of ripping off owners.

The topic should have been "I understand the skim and think it is fine", or " I think the skim is no big deal, why do you?"

i did not join the new system and do not intend to.  With my weeks, how I use them, and how I bought them it does not work for me.  If it does for you I am glad.

I do however think the skim was an underhanded way for Marriott to charge an exchange fee for the new system.  By saying "One flat fee each year", then hiding an additional fee seems wrong to me.  if a fee is needed I would think an actual per transaction fee that was disclosed would be better and more transparent.  It seems someone who uses points for seven one night stays should pay more than someone who stays 7 nights in a row.

Ray


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## dioxide45 (Oct 20, 2010)

rsackett said:


> I do however think the skim was an underhanded way for Marriott to charge an exchange fee for the new system.  By saying "One flat fee each year", then hiding an additional fee seems wrong to me.  if a fee is needed I would think an actual per transaction fee that was disclosed would be better and more transparent.  It seems someone who uses points for seven one night stays should pay more than someone who stays 7 nights in a row.
> 
> Ray



I agree. Had they allocated points in a manner in which seven consecutive nights cost the same in points as were given for your week and seven nights of a 1BR and studio separately equaled the points provided for the same resort, you would have far more people converting. The $165 fee is supposed to cover the exchange fees and lock off fees. However Marriott is charging the $165 fee and then still charging a "skim" fee to lock off.

Points for daily or shorter stays should have been higher and the full 7 night stays equal to points provided. I am willing to bet though that Marriott had to make seven day stays less competitive to II as part of their affiliation agreement with them. The new system isn't designed to replace week for week stays and the skim ends up being a fee for convenience and flexibility. They should just advertise it that way instead of trying to cover it up.


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## DanCali (Oct 20, 2010)

DanCali said:


> The biggest issue that sealed the deal from my perspective is the lack of "request first". There is no way in the world I can live with the high enrollment costs and the skim AND have to give up a home resort reservation that I can rent for $1000 over the cost of MFs for the POSSIBILITY of getting what I want.
> 
> As long as there is no "request first", I wouldn't join even if enrollment was free and there was no skim. So you are right - for me, the skim is not the main issue...






wuv pooh said:


> Dan, that is not quite true.  My VOA searched all points availabilities before I converted my weeks to points to make the exchange.  It is true that you cannot do an ongoing automated request first, but you can do it through the VOA and make an instant exchange if you find something you like. I found the process very easy, but it may be more difficult depending on what you are looking for.




I'm not sure what part of what I said is "Not quite true" 

I was specifically referring to "Request First" and not "Instant Exchange"...


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## dioxide45 (Oct 20, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I'm not sure what part of what I said is "Not quite true"
> 
> I was specifically referring to "Request First" and not "Instant Exchange"...



Well you can do an request first in DC, you just can't do an ongoing request first search like you can in II. I understood what you meant.


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## DanCali (Oct 20, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> Well you can do an request first in DC, you just can do an ongoing request first search like you can in II. I understood what you meant.



You mean "can't do a request first in DC"...?


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## dioxide45 (Oct 20, 2010)

DanCali said:


> You mean "can't do a request first in DC"...?



I fixed my post.


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## cruisin (Oct 20, 2010)

lapdawg said:


> Ex.-  My week costs 4250 points for someone else to book but I am only given 4000 points to exchange in the DP program.  I book a week that costs me 3000 points.  I'm left with 1000 points that can be used elsewhere.  If we assume the actual value is what it takes to book a week (as opposed to how many DP points I can trade it for) then I spent 4250 points and received 4000 points in exchange value (the skim is 250 points).  However, if I made the same trade under the weeks system, I would have spent 4250 points but only received 3000 points in value.  So by trading down, the skim would have cost me 1250 points.
> .



The week you book for 3,000 points was a week that someone was given 2,750 points for, Marriott makes out just fine, Skim in general shifts money from the members of the club to Marriott, overall it is  bad for owners, many will work the system well, many think the cost is worth the flexibility,  but overall it is a loss in value to the club as a whole. Usually not a good thing, and probably not a good path for owners that Marriott has embarked upon. 

If every owner joins, the ownership will have 5-8% less days available to vacation. the only way for Marriott to make more money in future will be to take 8-12% of the vacation days away, then 12-15% and so on.....


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## wuv pooh (Oct 21, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I'm not sure what part of what I said is "Not quite true"
> 
> I was specifically referring to "Request First" and not "Instant Exchange"...



You do not need to give away your home week that you can rent for $1,000 above MF until you find an exchange that you like.  The difference is that it is not an automated process at this point, so you would need to call a VOA multiple times to check.  Many people do this anyway because they do not trust the II automated process to provide the week they want.

I thought your complaint was having to convert your week without knowing what you will get, not the potential effort of the exercise.


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