# Recent Hilton Buy Backs



## Seth Nock

Hilton Las Vegas Strip $14,500
Hilton Las Vegas Strip 7000 points $14,000
Hilton Las Vegas Strip 7000 points $12,500
HGVC @ Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points $10,000
Hilton Sea World 7000 points $11,500
Hilton Las Vegas Strip 4800 point unit $7,800
Hilton Sea World 4800 points $6750

These are my most recent buy backs.  If anyone else has had RECENT buy backs, please post them.  Thanks.


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## alwysonvac

*Only Platinum buy backs?*

Thanks for the info.


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## Seth Nock

alwysonvac said:


> Thanks for the info.



Mostly, also 3400 points South Beach, Hilton bought for $3000.


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## linsj

I'm not surprised Hilton has been exercising ROFR. They are aggressively trying to get owners to consolidate and upgrade. At my last owner's update in September, the sales lady had a list of available units from a variety of resorts and was trying to entice me to trade in what I have for a consolidated package.

I am surprised at the prices Hilton is ROFRing on, especially compared with what Marriott is letting go.


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## Seth Nock

Yes, I have only had 1 a Marriott bought back in the last month.


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## jmatias

Is Hilton pretty aggressive for The Bay Club also?


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## Seth Nock

No, not for the Bay Club.


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## ricoba

Thanks for that info Seth.


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## FlyerBobcat

Seth Nock said:


> Yes, I have only had 1 a Marriott bought back in the last month.



Can you provide the details on that one MVCI buy-back?   Thanks


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## Seth Nock

It was a Mountainside Platinum high teens.


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## nonutrix

Seth, thanks for the updates on HGVC buybacks!

Would someone mind explaining what the HGVC consolidation packages look like?

TIA,

nonutrix


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## linsj

nonutrix said:


> Would someone mind explaining what the HGVC consolidation packages look like?



I have more than 1 HGVC deed, and the saleslady tried to talk me into trading them back to Hilton and paying a minimum of $7,000 for an upgraded property (in my case, it was oceanfront Hawaii). I call it a consolidation, although Hilton labels it a trade up. Although having one MF is appealing, it's not worth fewer points, the minimum purchase price, and the high closing fee (double what's normal).


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## jin

Seth,
      For comparison, can you also list some of the LOWER priced properties that Hilton waived ROFR recently?


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## Seth Nock

Passed:
5000 point Sea World $5,700
3400 point Sea World $3,500
7000 point Sea World $11,500
5000 point Las Vegas Hilton $6,200
5000 point Las Vegas Strip $6,500


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## Sandy VDH

Seth Nock said:


> Buy Backs on ROFR
> Hilton Sea World 7000 points $11,500





Seth Nock said:


> Passed ROFR:
> 7000 point Sea World $11,500



I wonder why 1 passed and 1 was bought back.  Was it a different HOA I vs II.  Any speculation or ideas Seth?


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## Seth Nock

There is always an element of surprise with the ROFR.  However, if 1 has recently toured and bought resale, it is more likely for the resale unit to be bought back.


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## GeorgeJ.

Seth Nock said:


> There is always an element of surprise with the ROFR.  However, if 1 has recently toured and bought resale, it is more likely for the resale unit to be bought back.



So are you saying that Hilton is keeping specific individuals from buying resale, if they have toured recently and declined to buy?

Basically, they're using a list of prospects who have toured and are exercising ROFR on those specific individuals if a proposed sale comes past the desk?

If that's the case, I would go for a Flamingo week where HGVC has no say over what is paid, and there is no ROFR.


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## Talent312

GeorgeJ. said:


> So are you saying that Hilton is keeping specific individuals from buying resale, if they have toured recently and declined to buy?


 
Hilton really could not care less whether you personally having done a tour, later try to buy resale.
Its far less pernicious.

HGVC has some gnomes in its basement who keep track of which units (sizes+seasons) -- _not who_ -- are pulling interest in the marketplace.  They look at what's being shown or sold  (even in the resale market) to help them decide how many of each type+location they want to have on hand to sell to their marks.

If they think that they can sell 2-BR Gold's in Orlando, they'll buy back more of 'em, rather than cede the territory to the resale market.  The next day, they could decide that they already have too many, and so, both push those units and pass on ROFR, rather than take back more.

It really is nothing more than inventory control.  Believe me, there is no Wizard of Oz (Hilton-Avatar) behind the curtain screwing with you.


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## short

*Financing.*

I did a HGVC owner update(tour) while at the Bay Club about one month ago.  They were still offering the usually financing.  The rep. said Blackstone Group has plenty of internal money for financing.  He said credit rating was not problem but with good credit scores and 50 percent down we could get a much better interest rate.

HGVC may be feeling the slowdown but does not seem to be listed in the usual timeshare cutbacks.  They do seem to have more cash to keep doing what they have always done.

Short


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## AFJAY

We just closed on our first TS, HGVC Las Vegas Strip.
2 bedroom 5000 points every year for $ 6000.
We attended our sales presentation about 1 year ago, and are scheduled to use our 1 time purchased 7000 points for a trip to Hawaii.  The day prior to ours passing ROFR, I was told that all 4 of the properties that they agent we were working with were bought back.  The next day ours came through.

Were happy, new to this, excited, and so VERY glad to have found this site and all the help for kind folks with all the support and advice.


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## Seth Nock

Hilton does not need to sell commercial paper to sell their units.  They hold their notes.  Therefore they can still sell and finance.  Their sales are not down anywheres near as much as other developers.  

Hilton, as well as most of the developers using right of first refusal, most definitely has on their computers who recently toured, if they agreed to buy and canceled. Although they may exercise on any of the units, if they have 2 buyers, same price, same unit, they are more likely to exercise right of first refusal on the unit that is from someone who just canceled a deal with them.


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## TerriJ

Side note, we were just at the Flamingo HGVC and we ignored all the phone calls, coupon books, and other come-ons from the "hospitality desk".  Twice is enough for us!


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## sffan2

We were also just at the Flamingo, Sun-Fri.  I don't remember any calls about a tour.  I took a tour a year ago and passed on converting my resale purchases.


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## Sandy VDH

All of the ROFR taken were platinum weeks, all of the sales allowed to go through were all Gold weeks, with 1 exception the 7000 point Seaworld sale.

So Gold season is regularly passing ROFR but it would appear that many Platinum weeks are NOT passing ROFR and Hilton is taking them back.


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## mbsteward

*I hope you're wrong*



Seth Nock said:


> Hilton, as well as most of the developers using right of first refusal, most definitely has on their computers who recently toured, if they agreed to buy and canceled.



Uh-oh.  I just got back from Las Vegas on the Strip after purchasing the VIP points for $1499.  I found TUG the same night I got home, and rescinded the next day after reading about resale.  After pouring over TUG and resale ads for two full days, I made an offer on a resale this past Monday.

The offer was for $4,400 for Orlando on International Drive (Tuscany), 1BR, Gold, 3400 points.  I am using Grand Vacations Title company.  I hope they don't hold it against me that I made an offer on a resale within a week timeframe from purchasing the VIP product and rescinding...  we shall see.

As a footnote, I got the funds back from VIP cancellation in less than 5 days!  That sounds very fast, as some other folks have had problems with getting refunds in the past.


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## Bill4728

mbsteward said:


> Uh-oh.  I just got back from Las Vegas on the Strip after purchasing the VIP points for $1499.  I found TUG the same night I got home, and rescinded the next day after reading about resale.  After pouring over TUG and resale ads for two full days, I made an offer on a resale this past Monday.
> 
> The offer was for $4,400 for Orlando on International Drive (Tuscany), 1BR, Gold, 3400 points.  I am using Grand Vacations Title company.  I hope they don't hold it against me that I made an offer on a resale within a week timeframe from purchasing the VIP product and rescinding...  we shall see.


I'm not sure but for most gold contracts, the price point for triggering ROFR is closer to $1/pt, so I'd be very hopeful your $4400 for 3500 pts will likely pass ROFR.


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## Redrosesix

Bill4728 said:


> I'm not sure but for most gold contracts, the price point for triggering ROFR is closer to $1/pt, so I'd be very hopeful your $4400 for 3500 pts will likely pass ROFR.



Do you have an estimate on the price point for triggering ROFR for platinum contracts?


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## bosco0633

I was told 10500 to 11000 is where they are exercising ROFR right now.  Anything under this you have no chance in my opinion.


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## Redrosesix

bosco0633 said:


> I was told 10500 to 11000 is where they are exercising ROFR right now.  Anything under this you have no chance in my opinion.



Ouch! 

I have seen a lot for less than that, and that means they're probably not even worth bothering with. :annoyed:


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## alwysonvac

Redrosesix said:


> Ouch!
> 
> I have seen a lot for less than that, and that means they're probably not even worth bothering with. :annoyed:



A lot for less than that? Are you talking about the same resorts?

Bosco0633 is referring to a 2 bedroom platinum (7,000 annual HGVC points) at the HGVC Developed Resorts in Florida & Vegas that have ROFR (NOTE: HGVC Flamingo has no ROFR).

Some of the HGVC affiliate resorts such as Bay Club and FAVC are going for a lot less.


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## Redrosesix

alwysonvac said:


> A lot for less than that? Are you talking about the same resorts?
> 
> Bosco0633 is referring to a 2 bedroom platinum (7,000 annual HGVC points) at the HGVC Developed Resorts in Florida & Vegas that have ROFR (NOTE: HGVC Flamingo has no ROFR).
> 
> Some of the HGVC affiliate resorts such as Bay Club and FAVC are going for a lot less.



You're probably right -- some of the ads I just re-checked had platinum written in the title, but they were only 5000 points.

There are 2 bdrm platinum, 7000 points listed on eBay starting much lower than $10,500 but I assume they get up to that price or higher.  

Just learnin' -- sorry


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## Bill4728

alwysonvac said:


> A lot for less than that? Are you talking about the same resorts?
> 
> Bosco0633 is referring to a 2 bedroom platinum (7,000 annual HGVC points) at the HGVC Developed Resorts in Florida & Vegas that have ROFR (NOTE: HGVC Flamingo has no ROFR).
> 
> Some of the HGVC affiliate resorts such as Bay Club and FAVC are going for a lot less.


This is very true.

Also, some of the HGVC resorts in Hawaii are selling at a significantly higher price point than the TS in Vegas or Orlando.


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## bosco0633

they are cheap on ebay, but even if they sell low, they wont make it through ROFR.  Also if you look at any HGVC on ebay from an agent, they all have reserves.  

They actually use ebay with the intentions of selling just a couple, and using it for advertising.  When you list with ebay, it brings traffic when you use google to the add, which directs you to the client.  Very smart buisness move.

7000 platinum is high price right now, because HGVC is aggressively exercising ROFR.

5000 Golds are going well


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## Redrosesix

bosco0633 said:


> they are cheap on ebay, but even if they sell low, they wont make it through ROFR.  Also if you look at any HGVC on ebay from an agent, they all have reserves.
> 
> They actually use ebay with the intentions of selling just a couple, and using it for advertising.  When you list with ebay, it brings traffic when you use google to the add, which directs you to the client.  Very smart buisness move.



I was just looking at what is apparently a 1 bdrm at HGVC Seaworld on eBay, no reserve, "red season" with the opening price $1, no reserve. 

Yup, that freaked me out  Not even worth the time it takes to bid, is it?


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## natarajanv

yup, that one is a 1BR GOLD 3400 point TS. Those usually sells for about 3K....


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## Redrosesix

So...since I've now decided I'm buying Gold season, not platinum, if there is a steal of a deal on eBay or anywhere else do I bother with it if it is below $1 per point? Would I just be wasting my time?


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## natarajanv

I dont think you will have a problem passing RFOR for a GOLD, with this economy IMHO. Also, you have nothing to lose, if you don't get it then wait for the next deal....


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## bosco0633

if you look many hgvc resales are with judy kozlowski, if you just call her she will find you one at a great price.  You want orlando and you will be effected by ROFR.  

Call her tell her what you want and what you want to spend.  I think you can get one for 5000 to 5200 on a good deal.  If below that, HGVC will exercise on that forsure.  

if you want, send me your number in email to ratorrie@quickclic.net  and I can talk to you and answer some questions you have.  I was where you were a few weeks ago.  It helped make the decison speaking with other people that are part of the system.


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## Redrosesix

natarajanv said:


> yup, that one is a 1BR GOLD 3400 point TS. Those usually sells for about 3K....



Nope.  This is the eBay listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=310131208380

One of the problems I'm having with this listing is that it states maintenance fees are $943.  But other listings for 2 bdrm units say they're $876.  It also states that the TS will be available beginning 2010 but doesn't say whether 2009 fees have been paid (I sent a message to the seller but haven't heard back)

The bidding is currently at $1225, well below the $1 per point.  It's too early for me to buy now, really, but is there any way I can find out what the lowest price is that Hilton will allow?


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## bosco0633

I heard that the trigger right now is 5200 to 5400.  There is no way that will make it past ROFR.  Call judy or seth and ask them.  It is impossible that they would allow this.  

The taxes look right to me.  the not available until 2010, means that this years points are already used.  Saves you some this year.

The 425 fee is only 375 so they are adding 50.00 to the close cost.  I would find out who ther are closing with, the add doesent guarantee a clear and free deed so I would be hesitant.  There is alot of legal work for the deed change and I would be very cautious, the closing requires some work.

If you use judy or seth to close, they will ensure and guarantee that the deed is clear, and they take care of everything, leaving you worry free.  Also this seller doesnt have a 100% feedback and they dont have a very high ebay feedback.  

But at the end of the day you will pay whatever for it through this person.  Payment required in 3 days so you will pay via paypal, and then once it is denied ROFR, your money MAY be returned to you, via paypal minus paypal fees.  So you will lose the paypal fees, then paypal will charge you a fee to cash that money out.

I know ebay very well and have been buying and selling for several years.  I would honestly be cautious here.  Call seth or judy.  I know that judy has a large inventory.  There is one right now on the updated sale list that I saw at 5200.00.  I bet you could offer 5000 and get lucky.  I think you can get it at this price, even 5200 is good price then they will have to get creative with closing costs in the contract to get it past ROFR.


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## bosco0633

last thing, getting a good deal is one thing, but thinking that you are going to get one for really cheap is not going to happen here.  The ROFR that HGVC will guarantee it.  

I understand your thoughts, trust me, I too really thought that I could steal one of these from ebay, it just is not possible in this case.


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## Redrosesix

bosco0633 said:


> last thing, getting a good deal is one thing, but thinking that you are going to get one for really cheap is not going to happen here.  The ROFR that HGVC will guarantee it.
> 
> I understand your thoughts, trust me, I too really thought that I could steal one of these from ebay, it just is not possible in this case.



Oh, yes.  That's what I was thinking too.  Just interesting that the bidding is so low with less than 1 day left to go.  And with no reserve.

I'm not ready to buy, but I am going to be following the listings for a while, as well as this thread.  

BTW, thanks for posting those ROFR stats Seth.  Veeeerrrry helpful


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## rmschiltz

I just wanted to add my 2 cents on this. I was following a 7000 pt HGVC on ebay for around $3000. It went up a little here and there. I think it was around $4,500 the day before closing. The last few hours the bidding started and went up to $9,100. So Ebay may look like a good deal if there are a few days left. I am not an owner yet, but I am starting to think that between the ROFR and that these are quality timeshares, there are no great steals.


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## bosco0633

you are right.  I purchased my TS last week, and Judy had sold 9 units that week alone.  She sends out a monthly great deals list which aggressively prices units off to sale.  

It is true about the quality and demand.  I think that more and more people are realizing the advantage of resale and going that way instead of through the company.  

I think the internet, has ultimately become the demise of the high sales by the HGVC.  I believe that you will see the developer prices begin to decline to meet more online with the resale prices.  Not dollar for dollar, but I believe that developer prices will have to come down. especially in this economy.  Hell HGVC must see how good the resale market is, they cut out elite status for resales as a deterrant to buy from developer.


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## thinze3

It's hard to belieive that HGVC can still continue to execute ROFR at these prices in todays market.

The Blackstone group (owner of Hilton) has seen its stock drop by as much as 90% only to recover somewhat in recent days. It borrowed $20B of the $26B it payed for Hilton in 2007 which was the absolute peak of the market. I just don't see how HGVC's ROFR can continue amid tight financial credit markets, and would venture to bet that Hilton (Blackstone) will allow anything but absolute bargains to get through ROFR, either now or in the very near future.

*IMHO*


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## jestme

thinze3 said:


> It's hard to belieive that HGVC can still continue to execute ROFR at these prices in todays market.
> 
> The Blackstone group (owner of Hilton) has seen its stock drop by as much as 90% only to recover somewhat in recent days. It borrowed $20B of the $26B it payed for Hilton in 2007 which was the absolute peak of the market. I just don't see how HGVC's ROFR can continue amid tight financial credit markets, and would venture to bet that Hilton (Blackstone) will allow anything but absolute bargains to get through ROFR, either now or in the very near future.
> 
> *IMHO*



Hilton built these resorts in places where there is high demand for either timeshare or hotels. If they can get back the high demand ones for a reasonable price, they will do it. They are in the business of selling timeshares, and they aren't going out of business. They can always let the hotel division rent them out at peaks in the interim until they sell. The resorts in Florida during hurricane season are much harder to sell or rent as a hotel, so they leave them alone and let someone else pay the maintenance fees on them. 
Also, keep in mind that some owners are paying for theirs on the monthly payment plan. If they ROFR the high demand season ones of those, Hilton gives money to the seller, who in turn, gives them the money right back to pay off the loan. They love it. It effectively costs them nothing, and they get a high demand unit / week back.


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## Seth Nock

It is cheaper for Hilton to exercise right of first refusal than to build new.  That also helps retain value for its owners. They can choose the inventory they want back (only buying the units they need on their sales floor).  I don't expect them to back down on their right of first refusal.  

Regarding EBAY, be careful.  Make sure you use a reliable closing company and make sure you are getting a title search.  When a company says they guarantee you get clean title, ask them what they mean, as there is nothing backing up their guarantee.  There are many companies on EBAY acting as brokers, but that are not licensed.  There are other companies that have taken money from the buyers and not given them the property or a refund.


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## Redrosesix

Seth Nock said:


> It is cheaper for Hilton to exercise right of first refusal than to build new.  That also helps retain value for its owners. They can choose the inventory they want back (only buying the units they need on their sales floor).  I don't expect them to back down on their right of first refusal.
> 
> Regarding EBAY, be careful.  Make sure you use a reliable closing company and make sure you are getting a title search.  When a company says they guarantee you get clean title, ask them what they mean, as there is nothing backing up their guarantee.  There are many companies on EBAY acting as brokers, but that are not licensed.  There are other companies that have taken money from the buyers and not given them the property or a refund.



Is it possible to have a broker that you trust look at a possible ebay purchase, or any purchase?  Sure, it would mean paying a little more but I wouldn't see it as any different than having your own real estate broker and/or lawyer follow up on private listings for houses.


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## thinze3

Seth Nock said:


> It is cheaper for Hilton to exercise right of first refusal than to build new.  That also helps retain value for its owners. They can choose the inventory they want back (only buying the units they need on their sales floor).  I don't expect them to back down on their right of first refusal.




My two cents.

Cheaper than construction and choosing inventory, this is the case for ALL timeshare companies. Why is it any different for HGVC?

As far as retaining value for its owners, do you really think Blackstone cares so much about its owners? This company is nothing more than a hedge fund looking for ways to make quick cash for it investors.


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## jestme

thinze3 said:


> My two cents.
> 
> 
> As far as retaining value for its owners, do you really think Blackstone cares so much about its owners? This company is nothing more than a hedge fund looking for ways to make quick cash for it investors.



First off, not all timeshare companies have ROFR, that is why you can buy some on eBay for $1.00. 
Let's see, 110,000 HGVC owners, paying avg. $800 / year in MF's, $88,000,000 / year revenue stream and cash flow. Yes, I do think they care. 
Lowering asset values isn't typically what hedge funds do. If you could get your hands on a $15000 asset for $5000, would you do it? Would it improve your net book value at the end of the day? That, is exactly what Blackstone is looking to do. 
Seth is right. ROFR is here to stay, and they will continue to selectively use it to their advantage.


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## ricoba

Seth Nock said:


> It is cheaper for Hilton to exercise right of first refusal than to build new. .



This quote sums it all up for me.  Hilton would prefer to exercise ROFR instead of building new properties in new places.  This along with the new credo of building new resorts with higher point requirements sets a trend that I as a owner am unhappy with.


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## eugeneleemd

*clean title*

most of those ebay auctions don't offer title insurance and or title search. how much would/should that normally cost and can anyone recommen a good company?


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## natarajanv

title insurance/search costs about $250-300 for TS which are priced about 10K or so. We are dealing with duncan realty. Ask for Susan.

http://www.duncanrealtyandescrow.com/


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## thinze3

jestme said:


> First off, not all timeshare companies have ROFR, that is why you can buy some on eBay for $1.00.
> Let's see, 110,000 HGVC owners, paying avg. $800 / year in MF's, $88,000,000 / year revenue stream and cash flow. Yes, I do think they care.
> Lowering asset values isn't typically what hedge funds do. If you could get your hands on a $15000 asset for $5000, would you do it? Would it improve your net book value at the end of the day? That, is exactly what Blackstone is looking to do.
> Seth is right. ROFR is here to stay, and they will continue to selectively use it to their advantage.



Slow down. No need to be so testy. If HGVC buys hundreds of timeshares for $5000, they will own hundreds of timeshares worth $5000, nothing more. Can they sell them for more, of course they can; except for the fact that the economy has all but shut down developers sales. Buying timeshares using valuable hard-to-obtain cash could be very illfated today. Adding debt and assetts you can't currently sale would in no way improve"net book value".

There are plenty of Starwood and Marriott properties to be had for $1, even though they both have the right to execute ROFR. You know why they don't execute ROFR on those properties, because the purpose of ROFR is not to help the owners, it is to make them more money when times are good. Times are NOT good now, and in my humble opinion people are getting great deals past ROFR at ALL developers, and these so called $11,500 minimums for 7000 HGVC points are simply pipe dreams. I someone finds a deal several thousands cheaper and tries to get past ROFR, HGVC will not ROFR that unit unless they have a buyer waiting on standby.

*P.S. - I won't discuss this anymore as I don't want to turn this into a ROFR thread. It think that the thread is about recent buybacks. I would like to hear from those who passed HGVC ROFR at bargain basement prices.*  

.


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## larsok

thinze3 said:


> Times are NOT good now, and in my humble opinion people are getting great deals past ROFR at ALL developers, and these so called $11,500 minimums for 7000 HGVC points are simply pipe dreams. I someone finds a deal several thousands cheaper and tries to get past ROFR, HGVC will not ROFR that unit unless they have a buyer waiting on standby.
> 
> *P.S. - I won't discuss this anymore as I don't want to turn this into a ROFR thread. It think that the thread is about recent buybacks. I would like to hear from those who passed HGVC ROFR at bargain basement prices.*
> 
> .



It is a thread about ROFR as Hilton exercising ROFR means they buy back.
I recently purchased two one bedroom units platinum in Orlando Intl. Drive, 9600 points, for $11,346.
Hilton did in fact exercise ROFR, just as Seth had predicted.


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## scififan

Just completed purchase of 7000 point platinum in Las Vegas convention center for $10k about 3 weeks ago.  I was surprised it passed ROFR, but I'm a happy camper


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## Talent312

scififan said:


> Just completed purchase of 7000 point platinum in Las Vegas convention center for $10k about 3 weeks ago.  I was surprised it passed ROFR, but I'm a happy camper



Its my theory that Hilton's use of its ROFR has as much to do with projected sales and inventory needs as anything, but it may be finding "good deals" a bit easier these days thanks to desperate sellers.  I'd say that its evidence that Hilton believes that, sooner or later, it will find enuff fools who'll pay retail or others who'll book units thru Hilton Hotels.


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## Bustah

7000 platinum event week (New Years) at HGVC Karen - $10K.  

Passed ROFR.


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## Sandy VDH

That is one of the lowest Platinum purchases that have gotten through ROFR that I have heard of for a while.  And it is an event week to boot.

Good job.

Wonder why Hilton didn't take it.


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## JonathanIT

Sandy Lovell said:


> That is one of the lowest Platinum purchases that have gotten through ROFR that I have heard of for a while.


Well, there's the one reported just two posts above.


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## ricoba

JonathanIT said:


> Well, there's the one reported just two posts above.




The first listing is not an event week (New Years), the second is an event week.

Event weeks normally hold a premium over a straight 7000 Platinum points, since they are automatically reserved for the owners.  They are not floating weeks, but high demand/season weeks.


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## DEROS

jestme said:


> First off, not all timeshare companies have ROFR, that is why you can buy some on eBay for $1.00.
> Let's see, 110,000 HGVC owners, paying avg. $800 / year in MF's, $88,000,000 / year revenue stream and cash flow. Yes, I do think they care.
> Lowering asset values isn't typically what hedge funds do. If you could get your hands on a $15000 asset for $5000, would you do it? Would it improve your net book value at the end of the day? That, is exactly what Blackstone is looking to do.
> Seth is right. ROFR is here to stay, and they will continue to selectively use it to their advantage.



The problem with you logic is that HGVC does not profit on the MF.  They profit on the Management Fee they charge each resort, which should be a fix charge.  They also profit on the exchange fees and all other fees that they charge to manipulate your points or stay.  Also the $95 annual fee collected from each member to be a member.  I don't think the MF from all the HGVC resort and affiliates goes to a large HGVC account collecting interest or used for investments and paying out when bills are due.  At least I hope that is not what HGVC is doing.  It would be a bad day if one of the resort or all, falls apart because the money for MF was blown on an investment gone south.

Deros


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## thinze3

Please don't kill me you HGVC owners, but I wouldn't be surprised to see these 7000 platinum points selling, and passing ROFR, for $1 a point before long.


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## Sandy VDH

ricoba said:


> The first listing is not an event week (New Years), the second is an event week.
> 
> Event weeks normally hold a premium over a straight 7000 Platinum points, since they are automatically reserved for the owners.  They are not floating weeks, but high demand/season weeks.




They were the same price at the same resort, I thought they were the same week.  However looking back I am seeing that they are posted by different poeple.  So two made it through ROFR at 10K for 7K points.


----------



## JonathanIT

Bustah said:


> 7000 platinum event week (New Years) at HGVC Karen - $10K.


Could you clarify what property this is?


----------



## ricoba

JonathanIT said:


> Could you clarify what property this is?



It's the HGVC at the Hilton Hotel.

They distinguish it by calling it Karen Street since it sits on Karen Street.

It's where we own.  I quite like it because it's smaller and has a private club feel to it.


----------



## JonathanIT

ricoba said:


> It's the HGVC at the Hilton Hotel.
> 
> They distinguish it by calling it Karen Street since it sits on Karen Street.
> 
> It's where we own.  I quite like it because it's smaller and has a private club feel to it.


Sorry for being so dense... but Hilton Hotel _where_??


----------



## ricoba

JonathanIT said:


> Sorry for being so dense... but Hilton Hotel _where_??



This one.

It's off the Strip, behind the Sahara.

Elvis made it famous!


----------



## JonathanIT

ricoba said:


> This one.
> 
> It's off the Strip, behind the Sahara.
> 
> Elvis made it famous!


Ah, yes LAS VEGAS would have been a simple answer from the beginning.  There are HGVC's in a lot of places.


----------



## ricoba

JonathanIT said:


> Ah, yes LAS VEGAS would have been a simple answer from the beginning.  There are HGVC's in a lot of places.



That's not quite true 

Sadly, there are really only 3 main locations for HGVC, Las Vegas, Orlando, Hawaii, the rest are primarily affiliates

But maybe someday our club will build outside those areas, like they are doing now in NYC.  But until then, we can only hope.


----------



## Seth Nock

One of the unlicensed "brokerage" companies submits fraudulent right of first refusal documents with forged signatures.  This has led to units "passing" right of first refusal at lower figures.  This company does not allow anyone to take title insurance.  Therefore, the buyer does not have clean title and may have problems when he attempts to sell the unit.  

Regarding sales, I have been told that Hilton developer sales in Vegas are surprisingly strong.


----------



## ricoba

Seth Nock said:


> One of the unlicensed "brokerage" companies submits fraudulent right of first refusal documents with forged signatures.  This has led to units "passing" right of first refusal at lower figures.  This company does not allow anyone to take title insurance.  Therefore, the buyer does not have clean title and may have problems when he attempts to sell the unit.
> 
> Regarding sales, I have been told that Hilton developer sales in Vegas are surprisingly strong.



Wow, that is incredible!   If you are aware of this fraud, I am sure Hilton is as well.  Isn't there anything that Hilton can do to stop this (I assume) illegal behavior?


----------



## thinze3

ricoba said:


> Wow, that is incredible!   If you are aware of this fraud, I am sure Hilton is as well.  Isn't there anything that Hilton can do to stop this (I assume) illegal behavior?



IMHO Hilton simply wouldn't recognize the new owner if they didn't sign off on ROFR.


----------



## Bustah

Seth,

Not saying you're wrong, but wondering exactly what you mean as all three of my resale purcahses passed ROFR before I ever signed any documents.  Do you mean the broker is forging the Sellers signature?


----------



## alwysonvac

Bustah said:


> Seth,
> 
> Not saying you're wrong, but wondering exactly what you mean as all three of my resale purcahses passed ROFR before I ever signed any documents.  Do you mean the broker is forging the Sellers signature?



When the resale purchase passes ROFR, HGVC sends a one page document titled the "Waiver of Right of First Refusal". The one page document includes the sellers names, buyer names and the contract number along with a HGVC notarized signature. This one page document was included with my closing documents.


----------



## DEROS

alwysonvac said:


> When the resale purchase passes ROFR, HGVC sends a one page document titled the "Waiver of Right of First Refusal". The one page document includes the sellers names, buyer names and the contract number along with a HGVC notarized signature. This one page document was included with my closing documents.



I just look at my ROFR and there was no notarized signature.  To tell you the truth the signature is a squiggly line.  However, I have used my points already, 2008, and reserved rooms in 2009.  Also, paid MF for two years.  I don't plan to sell any time soon but I hope there is no issue if I do.

Deros


----------



## scififan

Does anyone know how long it takes to receive closing documents and the actual deed?   All I got was a copy of the recorded deed 3 weeks ago.  I am in the hilton system, though, and my points do show up.

I'm assuming everything was handled correctly, as this purchase was done through Seth and a closing company he recommended.


----------



## Talent312

DEROS said:


> I just look at my ROFR and there was no notarized signature.  To tell you the truth the signature is a squiggly line... I don't plan to sell any time soon but I hope there is no issue if I do.



If you to sell, your buyer may want confirmation that Hilton was duly noticed and effectively waived its rights in the past, giving you clear title. Although not required, I recorded my Waiver in the public records.

If it somehow came to light that there was a notice to Hilton that differed from the actual transaction in a material respect, your buyer could back out and Hilton could sue to set aside the Waiver.  The likelihood of this happening may be small, but it simply isn't worth taking the risk.


----------



## Seth Nock

ricoba said:


> Wow, that is incredible!   If you are aware of this fraud, I am sure Hilton is as well.  Isn't there anything that Hilton can do to stop this (I assume) illegal behavior?



Their legal department is aware and working on it.


----------



## Seth Nock

Bustah said:


> Seth,
> 
> Not saying you're wrong, but wondering exactly what you mean as all three of my resale purcahses passed ROFR before I ever signed any documents.  Do you mean the broker is forging the Sellers signature?



And yours.


----------



## Seth Nock

thinze3 said:


> IMHO Hilton simply wouldn't recognize the new owner if they didn't sign off on ROFR.



They did, at higher sale prices.


----------



## Seth Nock

Talent312 said:


> If you to sell, your buyer may want confirmation that Hilton was duly noticed and effectively waived its rights in the past, giving you clear title. Although not required, I recorded my Waiver in the public records.
> 
> If it somehow came to light that there was a notice to Hilton that differed from the actual transaction in a material respect, your buyer could back out and Hilton could sue to set aside the Waiver.  The likelihood of this happening may be small, but it simply isn't worth taking the risk.



Hilton does not require it in Public records.  Disney does.


----------



## Seth Nock

DEROS said:


> I just look at my ROFR and there was no notarized signature.  To tell you the truth the signature is a squiggly line.  However, I have used my points already, 2008, and reserved rooms in 2009.  Also, paid MF for two years.  I don't plan to sell any time soon but I hope there is no issue if I do.
> 
> Deros



It will only come to light when you attempt to sell the unit.


----------



## hicksville

Wow- I used Judy for my purchase, and after reading all this, would never consider anything other than reputable people like her and Seth.  Too many potential issues to try to save a few $ on eb@y


----------



## eugeneleemd

does anyone know which company is involved? is it one of the ones on ebay? how can you or hilton know if there's anything fishy with the rofr process? if your purchase is tainted, what happens to the money and the property? i wonder if the property goes back to hilton (at the tru purchase price, lower than the fake listed rofr price) and you then hope and pray to get your money back from the "broker".  either way i think the original seller is ok.


----------



## Bustah

Seth Nock said:


> And yours.


 
I've never received a Waiver document with my signature forged.  

I have received signed ROFR documents signed by Hilton Resorts, but don't see a sales price on one and only typed name of seller and buyer on all.  I've used Chicago Title for my closing and actually have three different sets of documents from them for each of the three purchases I've made.

All that being said, what should we be requesting from the Closing Company to help ensure this resale never kicks back in our face: Title insurance?  Warranty Deed?  Signed ROFR from Hilton with accurate purchase price?

Not sure if this is fun learning or not


----------



## Sandy VDH

alwysonvac said:


> When the resale purchase passes ROFR, HGVC sends a one page document titled the "Waiver of Right of First Refusal". The one page document includes the sellers names, buyer names and the contract number along with a HGVC notarized signature. This one page document was included with my closing documents.



I guess that is a red flag for everyone to check.  Do you have a ROFR document with sellers name, buyers name, contract number, price and notarized HGVC signature.  If not I think it might be a problem.  

Perhaps that is why there have been a number of sales recently posted that are below what Hilton has been picking up by ROFR.  Certainly 10K for a 7K week seems below their exercise $$ levels lately.

Do you have any upgraded $$ figures Seth or which has or has not passed ROFR?


----------



## RLG

I don't really understand what incentive the seller would have for submitting fraudulent ROFR papers.  If Hilton exercises ROFR, the seller still gets the same amount of money, and even has the opportunity to sell another unit.


----------



## Talent312

Bustah said:


> ... what should we be requesting from the Closing Company to help ensure this resale never kicks back in our face: Title insurance?  Warranty Deed?  Signed ROFR from Hilton with accurate purchase price?



Along with the Request for Waiver, Hilton gets a copy of your contract for sale.  But this process may be handled without the Buyer's direct involvement.  Thus, the opportunity for forged signatures or numbers.

Typically, buyers only get a copy of the Waiver (after approval) and their Deed (post recording). To be sure that the Request comports with the "real" contract, a buyer needs to see the Request as submitted, but frankly, most buyers won't get that involved, settling merely for the closing agent's assurance.

IMHO, TS title insurance is a rediculously expensive extravagance.  I'd say a buyer should go it only if they paid more money for the property than they are willing to lose, or willing to spend on legal fees.


----------



## Sandy VDH

RLG said:


> I don't really understand what incentive the seller would have for submitting fraudulent ROFR papers.  If Hilton exercises ROFR, the seller still gets the same amount of money, and even has the opportunity to sell another unit.



I doubt that it is the seller doing it, but rather the agent/broker.  Perhaps the agent/broker is wanting more deals to go through perhaps, or commission are reduced/eliminated if HGVC takes the unit, and then they have worked for nothing or a reduced commission.  No really sure, but if the seller knew that it would not pass or was questionable to pass ROFR why give the unit away for less.


----------



## thinze3

OK. Something I still don't understand. Are you guys stating that if your ROFR letter has only a "squiggly line" as a signature and is NOT notarized, then HGVC will still allow issue your annual points and allow you to book your units each year? ... and you will not have any problems until you try to sell your HGVC unit?

Please explain, as this doesn't make any sense to me.


----------



## Seth Nock

Bustah said:


> I've never received a Waiver document with my signature forged.
> 
> I have received signed ROFR documents signed by Hilton Resorts, but don't see a sales price on one and only typed name of seller and buyer on all.  I've used Chicago Title for my closing and actually have three different sets of documents from them for each of the three purchases I've made.
> 
> All that being said, what should we be requesting from the Closing Company to help ensure this resale never kicks back in our face: Title insurance?  Warranty Deed?  Signed ROFR from Hilton with accurate purchase price?
> 
> Not sure if this is fun learning or not



If you used Chicago Title, you are fine.  The company only sends Hilton he forged docs, not the customers.  It is an EBAY seller.  Due to potentially pending litigation, I cannot give the name of the company.


----------



## Seth Nock

Sandy Lovell said:


> I guess that is a red flag for everyone to check.  Do you have a ROFR document with sellers name, buyers name, contract number, price and notarized HGVC signature.  If not I think it might be a problem.
> 
> Perhaps that is why there have been a number of sales recently posted that are below what Hilton has been picking up by ROFR.  Certainly 10K for a 7K week seems below their exercise $$ levels lately.
> 
> Do you have any upgraded $$ figures Seth or which has or has not passed ROFR?



Actually, you won't get that much info on the waiver.  Make sure you use a licensed and bonded escrow company that allows you to take title insurance if you choose to take it (you may choose not to take it, but make sure it is allowed - and make sure to get a title search at a minimum).


----------



## Seth Nock

Sandy Lovell said:


> I doubt that it is the seller doing it, but rather the agent/broker.  Perhaps the agent/broker is wanting more deals to go through perhaps, or commission are reduced/eliminated if HGVC takes the unit, and then they have worked for nothing or a reduced commission.  No really sure, but if the seller knew that it would not pass or was questionable to pass ROFR why give the unit away for less.



The unlicensed broker is taking the units from the seller with power of attorneys.  They are telling the seller that it is worthless and often charging the sellers to get rid of the units.  If the unit was bought by the developer, and the check was sent to the seller, the seller would know they had been scammed, and the unlicensed broker may not get their check.  That is why the unlicensed broker may forge right of first refusal docs.  They also own the closing company, so they have no one to oversee the closing process. Note, it is realy a closing company, not escrow company, as it is not third party.


----------



## Seth Nock

thinze3 said:


> OK. Something I still don't understand. Are you guys stating that if your ROFR letter has only a "squiggly line" as a signature and is NOT notarized, then HGVC will still allow issue your annual points and allow you to book your units each year? ... and you will not have any problems until you try to sell your HGVC unit?
> 
> Please explain, as this doesn't make any sense to me.



No, it has nothing to do with the waiver, but what documents led up to the waiver.  Make sure you are using a licensed and bonded escrow company.


----------



## Seth Nock

Talent312 said:


> IMHO, TS title insurance is a rediculously expensive extravagance.  I'd say a buyer should go it only if they paid more money for the property than they are willing to lose, or willing to spend on legal fees.



It you buy a unit and do not have clean title, you may never be able to get rid of it, forcing you to pay maintenance fees, when you may no longer want the unit.  Make sure you have a minimum of a title search, if you don't want to pay for the insurance.


----------



## Redrosesix

Seth Nock said:


> No, it has nothing to do with the waiver, but what documents led up to the waiver.  Make sure you are using a licensed and bonded escrow company.



I'm still totally confused about this.  Since I'm not even sure about what should normally happen in a purchase, I'm not getting how signatures could be forged yet HGVC still honours the change of name on the TS.  

Could somebody please explain the main issue here so I can at least understand this conversation?


----------



## Hawaii 5-0

Seth Nock said:


> It you buy a unit and do not have clean title, you may never be able to get rid of it, forcing you to pay maintenance fees, when you may no longer want the unit.



Why would you be forced to pay maintenance fees if you are not the legal owner?


----------



## Talent312

Redrosesix said:


> Could somebody please explain the main issue here so I can at least understand this conversation?



As you know (or should know), in nearly all resales of Hilton TS's, Hilton has a Right of First Refusal (ROFR) in which HGVC is entitled to notice and a copy of any sales contract.  If HGVC so elects, it can step into the shoes of the buyer and say to the parties, "We'll buy it for that price."  OTOH, if the price is too high for HGVC's taste, they'll issue a "Waiver" -- its this waiver that is a the heart of this matter.  Without a valid waiver, based on a "true" notice, the buyer does not obtain clear title... even if HGVC gives them a membership (for the time being).


----------



## thinze3

Redrosesix said:


> I'm still totally confused about this.  Since I'm not even sure about what should normally happen in a purchase, I'm not getting how signatures could be forged yet HGVC still honours the change of name on the TS.
> 
> Could somebody please explain the main issue here so I can at least understand this conversation?



My point exactly. It appears that people are being scared into using "certified" agents only on this thread. If you have closed on your timeshare, and HGVC recognizes you as the owner, who cares where you bought it. This happens everyday with other developers including Marriott and Starwood. Why is HGVC any different?

I have bought two Marriotts, from PCC's no less, and have had no problems but have saved upteen thousand dollars. .... and Marriott DID NOT execute ROFR on either of them. Right now is the time to make low ball offers and get great deals on ALL timeshares if you are in the market. IMO


----------



## alwysonvac

Redrosesix said:


> Could somebody please explain the main issue here so I can at least understand this conversation?



I think the confusion is due to multiple resale issues being discussed as one.
Seth is talking about two issues. If you keep that in mind it is easier to follow the discussion


*Issue #1* - FORGED ROFR WAIVER DOCUMENT (new issue)


Seth Nock said:


> One of the unlicensed "brokerage" companies submits fraudulent right of first refusal documents with forged signatures.  This has led to units "passing" right of first refusal at lower figures.



RICOBA: Wow, that is incredible!  If you are aware of this fraud, I am sure Hilton is as well. Isn't there anything that Hilton can do to stop this (I assume) illegal behavior? 
SETH: Their legal department is aware and working on it.

THINZE3: IMHO Hilton simply wouldn't recognize the new owner if they didn't sign off on ROFR. 
SETH: They did, at higher sale prices.
_I could be wrong but I took this to mean that HGVC recognized the new owner believing the new owner paid a higher resale price _


*ISSUE #2* - NOT HAVING A 3rd PARTY ESCROW COMPANY AND TITLE INSURANCE (existing issue that has been discussed before in previous threads)


Seth Nock said:


> This company does not allow anyone to take title insurance.  Therefore, the buyer does not have clean title and may have problems when he attempts to sell the unit.



DEROS: I just look at my ROFR and there was no notarized signature. To tell you the truth the signature is a squiggly line. However, I have used my points already, 2008, and reserved rooms in 2009. Also, paid MF for two years. I don't plan to sell any time soon but I hope there is no issue if I do.
SETH: It will only come to light when you attempt to sell the unit.

SANDY LOVELL: I guess that is a red flag for everyone to check. Do you have a ROFR document with sellers name, buyers name, contract number, price and notarized HGVC signature. If not I think it might be a problem. 
Perhaps that is why there have been a number of sales recently posted that are below what Hilton has been picking up by ROFR. Certainly 10K for a 7K week seems below their exercise $$ levels lately.
Do you have any upgraded $$ figures Seth or which has or has not passed ROFR? 
SETH: Actually, you won't get that much info on the waiver. Make sure you use a licensed and bonded escrow company that allows you to take title insurance if you choose to take it (you may choose not to take it, but make sure it is allowed - and make sure to get a title search at a minimum).

TALENT312: IMHO, TS title insurance is a rediculously expensive extravagance. I'd say a buyer should go it only if they paid more money for the property than they are willing to lose, or willing to spend on legal fees. 
SETH: It you buy a unit and do not have clean title, you may never be able to get rid of it, forcing you to pay maintenance fees, when you may no longer want the unit. Make sure you have a minimum of a title search, if you don't want to pay for the insurance.


----------



## thinze3

Actually, I think the issues are related. It appears that some think you would not be able to sell a unit in the future that has "squiggly line" instead of a notorized signature on "todays" ROFR - all this AFTER HGVC has recognized you as the owner and let you use your points for years.

*Example:*
Suppose I bought 7000 platinum points today for a low ball price and didn't use a "authorised" reseller. Suppose also that I received what I thought was a legitimate ROFR as some on this thread have done. Suppose HGVC recognized me as the owner and let me use the points for many years.

*Please be specific here:*
How would I have a problem selling if it was later discovered that my ROFR was never notorized? Would not HGVC would have the same ROFR in the future as they do now? They could either buy it back from me or not at that time.

Another question: Why would HGVC let you ever use your points if they had not signed the ROFR? Wouldn't HGVC know weather or not they had signed the ROFR?


----------



## jestme

Here is my take on it. Hilton is getting false paperwork from the buyers agent, with an inflated price, set that that way so that Hilton signs off on the ROFR. The only person that knows about this, is the buyers agent. The agent submits the paperwork, and gets it back from Hilton, and as the price shown is high, it passes ROFR. Then, in the final paperwork to the buyer, a false ROFR document comes as part of the closing package. Now, to Hilton, the place was sold fine, at a good price. To the original owner, he got the dollar amount that was agreed on with the buyer, because he doesn't get to see the ROFR document. According to the buyer, he got ROFR documents. Everybody is happy. Especially the agent who took their commission. As Seth said, the only time this becomes an issue, is when the buyer then goes to re-sell, and sends in documentation. If Hilton notices the price difference, or notices the ROFR isn't notarized or signed by one of their people, or matches the ROFR document to their originally signed one, there is a problem. At that point, if they can find the agent's other sales, they could create real havoc among their other sellers and purchasers.


----------



## Talent312

thinze3 said:


> Another question: Why would HGVC let you ever use your points if they had not signed the ROFR? Wouldn't HGVC know weather or not they had signed the ROFR?



Sure, if HGVC knew they had not issued a Waiver, they'd refuse to process the transfer.
_*Well, they might, if they believe the transaction would have passed ROFR anyway.*_

The real question is, if there was a misrepresentation as to the purchase price (thru forgery or the parties being in cahoots), then:
... (a) Would the fraud ever be discovered? Maybe. These things often come to light in the unexpected ways, some document, some tax form, some innocent inquiry, or some disgruntled party... or spouse...
... (b) If not discovered, would the buyer still be able to sell the unit? I say probably, 'cuz even if the buyer's title is defective, the likelihood of anyone looking behind the Waiver itself is extremely remote.  If Hilton doesn't find it, a superficial title search won't bring it to light.


----------



## alwysonvac

FYI...added clarification to post #101.


----------



## timeos2

jestme said:


> Here is my take on it. Hilton is getting false paperwork from the buyers agent, with an inflated price, set that that way so that Hilton signs off on the ROFR. The only person that knows about this, is the buyers agent. The agent submits the paperwork, and gets it back from Hilton, and as the price shown is high, it passes ROFR. Then, in the final paperwork to the buyer, a false ROFR document comes as part of the closing package. Now, to Hilton, the place was sold fine, at a good price. To the original owner, he got the dollar amount that was agreed on with the buyer, because he doesn't get to see the ROFR document. According to the buyer, he got ROFR documents. Everybody is happy.



If that is really happening (and anyone with the sense to do it shouldn't admit it) once the deal is done and accepted as it says above everyone is happy and nothing should happen in the future.  While technically questionable the whole ROFR thing is so one sided and unfair that IF someone can do this I secretly applaud them for beating a rigged system.   Now that ROFR is in it's death throws perhaps the whole idea will just go away and the market can act as it should to set resale value.  Personally I advise all buyers to avoid any resort / system with ROFR but if you must have it this is one possible way to buy at a real number that the SELLER is forced to take one way or the other.  Why let Hilton (or Marriott or anyone else) steal it with ROFR nonsense?


----------



## Seth Nock

thinze3 said:


> My point exactly. It appears that people are being scared into using "certified" agents only on this thread. If you have closed on your timeshare, and HGVC recognizes you as the owner, who cares where you bought it. This happens everyday with other developers including Marriott and Starwood. Why is HGVC any different?
> 
> I have bought two Marriotts, from PCC's no less, and have had no problems but have saved upteen thousand dollars. .... and Marriott DID NOT execute ROFR on either of them. Right now is the time to make low ball offers and get great deals on ALL timeshares if you are in the market. IMO



Not "certified agents".  Licensed agents or private parties.  Buying from an unlicensed broker is where there are issues.  States license brokers for the protection of buyers.  Unlicensed people acting as brokers is illegal and that is not the only illegal activity being done by that company.


----------



## thinze3

All this and no answer yet. Why would you have a problem selling in the future? The deed is in my name and is lien free.

Say I buy 7000 pts now for $8K and sell them for $11K five years down the road. HGVC has the option to buy it back or not. Again, where is the problem??


----------



## Talent312

thinze3 said:


> All this and no answer yet. Why would you have a problem selling in the future? The deed is in my name and is lien free.



Ahem... My answer was: "If not discovered, would the buyer still be able to sell the unit? I say probably, 'cuz even if the buyer's title is defective, the likelihood of anyone looking behind the Waiver itself is extremely remote. If Hilton doesn't find it, a superficial title search won't bring it to light."

OTOH, if HGVC discovered the fraud, your purchase (and consequently your sale) could be voided.
... Clear enuff?


----------



## Redrosesix

Thanks Alwysonvac -- that was so helpful -- I'm finally getting this.

Well, since I'd be buying from Canada I'd be sure to use a licensed broker in any case.  I'm not in much of a position to do anything if somebody tries to steal my money, so I'd be willing to pay what is necessary to ensure everything goes through ok.

As for ROFR going away, just the thought of this makes me quite sure I don't want to buy anything now -- even if I purchased resale I'd be guaranteed to lose money if I ever wanted to sell it.  There isn't any talk of DVC choosing not to exercise ROFR -- not sure why anyone would expect HGVC to be any different.


----------



## Talent312

Redrosesix said:


> As for ROFR going away, just the thought of this makes me quite sure I don't want to buy anything now -- even if I purchased resale I'd be guaranteed to lose money if I ever wanted to sell it.  There isn't any talk of DVC choosing not to exercise ROFR -- not sure why anyone would expect HGVC to be any different.



With or w/o the ROFR, you're likely to lose $$ with any TS. If HGVC exercises its ROFR, you won't lose any more $$, you'll get the same $$, but sell to HGVC instead of your buyer. One of the basic tenants of TS's is that you do not buy with the objective of making money - its not an investment - you buy to use.  Amortize your cost over however many years expect to use it to decide if its worth it.


----------



## timeos2

*Not buying a ROFR property is a good move. Buy low cost resale & you might break even*



Redrosesix said:


> Thanks Alwysonvac -- that was so helpful -- I'm finally getting this.
> 
> Well, since I'd be buying from Canada I'd be sure to use a licensed broker in any case.  I'm not in much of a position to do anything if somebody tries to steal my money, so I'd be willing to pay what is necessary to ensure everything goes through ok.
> 
> As for ROFR going away, just the thought of this makes me quite sure I don't want to buy anything now -- even if I purchased resale I'd be guaranteed to lose money if I ever wanted to sell it.  There isn't any talk of DVC choosing not to exercise ROFR -- not sure why anyone would expect HGVC to be any different.



Then you haven't read the DVC Boards. Not only might they stop or reduce ROFR - it is guaranteed to fall as the end of RTU gets nearer (DVC is not deeded for life but only for XX years). No timeshare holds retail value - ROFR doesn't protect buyers resale price (see the many threads on that especially the University study that proved it lowers resale values) and resale purchase is the best chance of getting a fair value going in thus making a fair value selling the most likely.  Remember that timeshare is vacation, not investment, and just keep your outlay to a minimum, figure zero value at resale, count those annual fees as the true cost of vacationing and you'll do OK especially if you get a few dollars when you are done with it.


----------



## Redrosesix

Talent312 said:


> With or w/o the ROFR, you're likely to lose $$ with any TS. If HGVC exercises its ROFR, you won't lose any more $$, you'll get the same $$, but sell to HGVC instead of your buyer. One of the basic tenants of TS's is that you do not buy with the objective of making money - its not an investment - you buy to use.  Amortize your cost over however many years expect to use it to decide if its worth it.





timeos2 said:


> Then you haven't read the DVC Boards. Not only might they stop or reduce ROFR - it is guaranteed to fall as the end of RTU gets nearer (DVC is not deeded for life but only for XX years). No timeshare holds retail value - ROFR doesn't protect buyers resale price (see the many threads on that especially the University study that proved it lowers resale values) and resale purchase is the best chance of getting a fair value going in thus making a fair value selling the most likely.  Remember that timeshare is vacation, not investment, and just keep your outlay to a minimum, figure zero value at resale, count those annual fees as the true cost of vacationing and you'll do OK especially if you get a few dollars when you are done with it.



I understand this about both of these systems.  But I was thinking about how the TS's at some of the Sheraton and Wyndham resorts are basically being sold for nothing right now.  There's a huge difference between assuming that your TS has some residual value and having none, especially if that could happen overnight. This makes me wonder if we shouldn't consider buying one that is already valued at zero instead.

BTW, we spend our summers in an RV at a seasonal site in a campground.  I have no fantasies about getting what I paid for it when we're ready to move on (although I bought resale there too, so I won't lose as much) but at least I know that it will always have some value if I maintain it properly.

Gonna have to go find those threads about ROFR that you mentioned.


----------



## thinze3

Back to my original discussion:
Has anyone yet had a platinum 7000 point unit pass ROFR for well under $10K? Under $9K? I will be interested if it gets to about $7K.

Amazing how the discussion of getting VERY CHEAP units passed HGVC's ROFR immediately turned into the mention of _'fraud'_, lack of _'notarized signatures'_, _'squiggly lines'_, lack of _'clear title'_, and _'inability to sell'_ in the future.


----------



## Redrosesix

thinze3 said:


> Back to my original discussion:
> Has anyone yet had a platinum 7000 point unit pass ROFR for well under $10K? Under $9K? I will be interested if it gets to about $7K.
> 
> Amazing how the discussion of getting VERY CHEAP units passed HGVC's ROFR immediately turned into the mention of _'fraud'_, lack of _'notarized signatures'_, _'squiggly lines'_, lack of _'clear title'_, and _'inability to sell'_ in the future.



I have been searching for just such information.  I like the ROFR thread on the DVC forums over at DisBoards -- we're tracking AKV right now and I find that information so helpful.

I did find a similar link for Marriott TS's (but there are no posts for the Orlando area that I can find since 2008), but nothing for Hilton.


----------



## hockeybrain

Thinze - I just do not buy the conspiracy theory.   Will Hilton keep the ROFR?    I hope they do because it protects their time share unit brand.   As a non-owner right now I hate the idea of having to pay significantly more and perhaps more than double for a resale in this market.   However, if I was a Hilton Time Share owner I would be really pleased that Hilton has ROFR and would hope they maintain it.   I plan on buying, paying more on the resale than I would have because of ROFR but hope one day I can sell for close to what I paid for it because of ROFR.   Who knows what the future will bring?


----------



## Blues

thinze3 said:


> Back to my original discussion:
> Has anyone yet had a platinum 7000 point unit pass ROFR for well under $10K? Under $9K? I will be interested if it gets to about $7K.



No, my purchase didn't pass ROFR because it was a Flamingo unit, not subject to ROFR.  But I bought a 7000 point 2 BR Platinum Flamingo  week last June for $9800 on eBay.  Have been enjoying the points since then.

-Bob


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## Talent312

hockeybrain said:


> Thinze - I just do not buy the conspiracy theory.   Will Hilton keep the ROFR?    I hope they do because it protects their time share unit brand.



It gives them control over a ready supply of relatively "cheap" TS's they can turn around and sell (the points) to the unwashed masses at retail prices (as if they were "new").  IOW, its more about the spread
... and their sticky-fingers.


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## Redrosesix

timeos2 said:


> Then you haven't read the DVC Boards. Not only might they stop or reduce ROFR - it is guaranteed to fall as the end of RTU gets nearer (DVC is not deeded for life but only for XX years). No timeshare holds retail value - ROFR doesn't protect buyers resale price (see the many threads on that especially the University study that proved it lowers resale values) and resale purchase is the best chance of getting a fair value going in thus making a fair value selling the most likely.  Remember that timeshare is vacation, not investment, and just keep your outlay to a minimum, figure zero value at resale, count those annual fees as the true cost of vacationing and you'll do OK especially if you get a few dollars when you are done with it.



Still looking for those threads that explain why ROFR would reduce resale values...


----------



## timeos2

*Proof from an actual study not "I think.."*



Redrosesix said:


> Still looking for those threads that explain why ROFR would reduce resale values...



There are a ton of them (Search for ROFR and stand back) although many seem to have scrolled off due to the date. Here is one link to the University Study that proved ROFR does NOT favor sellers or higher prices.


----------



## jestme

timeos2 said:


> There are a ton of them (Search for ROFR and stand back) although many seem to have scrolled off due to the date. Here is one link to the University Study that proved ROFR does NOT favor sellers or higher prices.


University studies have long been subject to the rules of the study and not necessarily what the study is about. The example in this particular thread is about selling permanent real estate, that is currently rented, on a lease, in the UK. The renter has, in their lease, an agreement of ROFR. What the story doesn't mention, is that ROFR is applicable on ANY offer made on the house. So, in fact, if someone came back with a different offer, the renter gets another chance to buy at the new, agreed price. Turning down the first offer does not eliminate the ROFR agreement. 
This is totally a different scenario from a timeshare ROFR,, where typically,the developer is the potential benefactor of the ROFR. 
Selling a timeshare is about what the seller is willing to accept. Not what the buyer is willing to pay. Once the seller has accepted an offer, that is what they will get for the property. He will get it either from the buyer, or from the company exercising ROFR. In these discussion boards, we tend to focus on the buyer, and his hope to get something cheap, not necessarily on the seller who has decided he is willing to take that amount, regardless of who pays it.


----------



## timeos2

*ROFR has been exposed as what it is. No friend to owners*



jestme said:


> University studies have long been subject to the rules of the study and not necessarily what the study is about. The example in this particular thread is about selling permanent real estate, that is currently rented, on a lease, in the UK. The renter has, in their lease, an agreement of ROFR. What the story doesn't mention, is that ROFR is applicable on ANY offer made on the house. So, in fact, if someone came back with a different offer, the renter gets another chance to buy at the new, agreed price. Turning down the first offer does not eliminate the ROFR agreement.
> This is totally a different scenario from a timeshare ROFR,, where typically,the developer is the potential benefactor of the ROFR.
> Selling a timeshare is about what the seller is willing to accept. Not what the buyer is willing to pay. Once the seller has accepted an offer, that is what they will get for the property. He will get it either from the buyer, or from the company exercising ROFR. In these discussion boards, we tend to focus on the buyer, and his hope to get something cheap, not necessarily on the seller who has decided he is willing to take that amount, regardless of who pays it.



Everything you say is correct and verifies exactly what has been stated over and over. ROFR does NOTHING for the SELLER or BUYER (the seller gets the low ball, agreed to market price - the willing buyer screwed out of a deal) while the developer steals the unit for market price, continues the ruse that somehow prices for their resort is higher because they have ROFR (see SELLER who got the LOW price NOT any tyoe of guaranteed floor or miniumum rice) and turns around and resells it as new to some poor dupe who buys into the scam.  Meanwhile the spurned BUYER, if they are smart, understands the losers game and never again offers on any ROFR property (or at least keeps offering only the low value the market supports so eventually the Developer gets tired of buying as Marriott did) thus the NEXT seller finds even less offers (if any), cannot sell their week when they want or for anything close to what they mistakenly believe was the "going rate". The scheme is also supported because the true, low sales prices are hidden as the real winner - the developer - doesn't publish them and the SELLER, now out of the bad deal, takes their few bucks and slinks off glad to have any buyer at any price. The few that are willing to talk have verified that they were surprised that it didn't get them more they simply got the low price from XXX developer rather than the willing buyer THEY had to scratch around to find.  It would make Bernie M proud that after all this time some still think ROFR benefits them and supports higher values. Nothing could be more off the mark.


----------



## JonathanIT

timeos2 said:


> ROFR does NOTHING for the SELLER or BUYER (the seller gets the low ball, agreed to market price - the willing buyer screwed out of a deal) while the developer steals the unit for market price, continues the ruse that somehow prices for their resort is higher because they have ROFR (see SELLER who got the LOW price NOT any tyoe of guaranteed floor or miniumum rice) and turns around and resells it as new to some poor dupe who buys into the scam.  *Meanwhile the spurned BUYER, if they are smart, understands the losers game and never again offers on any ROFR property* (or at least keeps offering only the low value the market supports so eventually the Developer gets tired of buying as Marriott did) thus the NEXT seller finds even less offers (if any), cannot sell their week when they want or for anything close to what they mistakenly believe was the "going rate". The scheme is also supported because the true, low sales prices are hidden as the real winner - the developer - doesn't publish them *and the SELLER, now out of the bad deal, takes their few bucks and slinks off glad to have any buyer at any price.* The few that are willing to talk have verified that they were surprised that it didn't get them more they simply got the low price from XXX developer rather than the willing buyer THEY had to scratch around to find.  It would make Bernie M proud that after all this time some still think ROFR benefits them and supports higher values. Nothing could be more off the mark.


I agree with your scenario... up to the point where the buyer just walks away from ever trying to purchase another deed at the same property (if they don't pass ROFR).  I don't agree this is what all buyers are doing, if a person makes a bid on Marriott, or HGVC, or DVC... that person wants Marriott, or HGVC, or DVC.  I would think that if they are attempting to buy a TS in the resale market, they have researched exactly what they wish to purchase.  

I know if I wanted to buy DVC, I wouldn't just walk away and say "screw it with ROFR, I'm done!" Please, I have a little more patience than that! And I want DVC! I can either keep trying to land a low-ball contract, or I can up my bid a little bit to what is know will pass.  Sounds pretty good for the seller to me.

Those buyers who might do what you are suggesting... IMHO are pure speculators who see some cheap TS and want to scoop it up just because it's cheap.  I think it's better for the seller if those people walk away.

Also, I think you're attempt to make the seller a "victim" in this scenario is way off.  The seller agreed to the sale--ROFR or not--so it is obviously a fair price for them or they would not have agreed to it!  What if the ROFR passes... does the seller still "slink" off with his "few bucks" to pout?  Well, maybe they shouldn't have agreed to sell it for that price in the first place then.


----------



## Sandy VDH

I have been thinking about why would anyone broker would need tainted paperwork in the first place.

The one scenario that makes sense to me as to why some nefarious activity would be taking place, is the scenario where someone not that knowledgable falls prey to a PCC type operation, where they worse case, pay a fee or slightly better just hand over their "worthless" timeshare.  The broker then lies to both the original owner (worth nothing) and the new buyer (worth $) and HGVC contracts (worth $$).  

Perhaps they need the deceptive ROFR waiver to keep HGVC and the Seller in the dark.  They want to turn over the units quickly so pricing it lower and having tainted paperwork to cover you tracks, would make less initial waves.  

In that situation perhaps everyone but the broker loses.  The original owner gets little or nothing, the new owner gets a TS at a great price (but perhaps through some dubious paperwork, which may or may not have ramifications later), and HGVC loses the opportunity to ROFR a unit they might actually buy back.  The broker make out the best, pockets the fee to unload the timeshare, or fee to sell it, and then also could pockets what they really sold it for.  

All of this is just supposition.  I have no knowledge, facts or proof.  Hey isn't that what makes a good conspiracy theory.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Short Version.*




timeos2 said:


> It would make Bernie M proud that after all this time some still think ROFR benefits them and supports higher values. Nothing could be more off the mark.


ROFR *=* ROFL. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## Redrosesix

timeos2 said:


> There are a ton of them (Search for ROFR and stand back) although many seem to have scrolled off due to the date. Here is one link to the University Study that proved ROFR does NOT favor sellers or higher prices.



Oh, I thought you meant threads on TUG or Dis.

BTW, I read through the link you posted.  But that wouldn't prove that the seller has a disadvantage.  Instead, it states that the holder of the ROFR is at a disadvantage -- in this case that would be HGVC. Its predictions re sellers is: "This allows the asset owner to present any third party with an ultimatum offer: Buy at the high price, or not at all. By increasing the bargaining power of the asset owner in this way, the right works to the disadvantage of the right holder." In the case of TS's, the TS owner is the asset owner.

So...I'm still thinking that if I buy resale, I will like ROFR if/when it comes times to sell.


----------



## timeos2

*It's one shot for the seller & the buyers cat is out of the bag*



JonathanIT said:


> I agree with your scenario... up to the point where the buyer just walks away from ever trying to purchase another deed at the same property (if they don't pass ROFR).  I don't agree this is what all buyers are doing, if a person makes a bid on Marriott, or HGVC, or DVC... that person wants Marriott, or HGVC, or DVC.  I would think that if they are attempting to buy a TS in the resale market, they have researched exactly what they wish to purchase.
> 
> I know if I wanted to buy DVC, I wouldn't just walk away and say "screw it with ROFR, I'm done!" Please, I have a little more patience than that! And I want DVC! I can either keep trying to land a low-ball contract, or I can up my bid a little bit to what is know will pass.  Sounds pretty good for the seller to me.
> 
> Those buyers who might do what you are suggesting... IMHO are pure speculators who see some cheap TS and want to scoop it up just because it's cheap.  I think it's better for the seller if those people walk away.
> 
> Also, I think you're attempt to make the seller a "victim" in this scenario is way off.  The seller agreed to the sale--ROFR or not--so it is obviously a fair price for them or they would not have agreed to it!  What if the ROFR passes... does the seller still "slink" off with his "few bucks" to pout?  Well, maybe they shouldn't have agreed to sell it for that price in the first place then.



As the seller the ONE shot you have to find a willing buyer (never exactly beating a path to the timeshare sellers door but the "pool" is greatly reduced by the hassles - both perceived and real - of ROFR properties) and now the seller accepts the offer they have been waiting for. After making them (and the buyer) wait another 30-90 days the developer decides that, OK, we'll take it. The seller gets the exact low price the buyer offered - no second chance- and the buyer now KNOWS what the true value is. Are they going to RAISE that price to the NEXT seller (your week is gone, you're out of the game a loser) byt thousands of dollars? A few might go a few hundred or even a grand higher but much more? Why would they? They already know sellers are willing to sell much lower. If you know it can be bought for less you're going to offer more? In what bizzaro world? 

The ROFR is a scam and believing it somehow will get you more for your week if you decide to sell is a pipe dream. Of course it's fun to think so until you actually go to find a buyer. Once you do and reality finally hits I doubt you will be willing to post but will in fact do the slink off with the check and curse the day ROFR was ever mentioned. Again the best policy is to simply refuse to buy any property that has a valid ROFR. Or simply bid lower every time until you get your "must have" week so when YOU sell you can actually recover the true value, not some imaginary number that the developers hope you'll think is real. Remember these are the same weasels who sell these weeks with a straight and serious face at well over 50% more than they know it's worth and 80-95% over what the market says they are worth when resold.  Trusting them is a real threat to your long term happiness with your purchase. Minimize cost upfront and pay the exact same annual fees as those who paid 2-3-4 or many more times what you did by buying resale. Then have a good chance of getting your original purchase cost back and you'll be in the happy minority of timeshare buyers who know how to best work a rigged system.


----------



## timeos2

*ROFR is NOT a good thing (unless you are the developer)*



Redrosesix said:


> Oh, I thought you meant threads on TUG or Dis.
> 
> BTW, I read through the link you posted.  But that wouldn't prove that the seller has a disadvantage.  Instead, it states that the holder of the ROFR is at a disadvantage -- in this case that would be HGVC. Its predictions re sellers is: "This allows the asset owner to present any third party with an ultimatum offer: Buy at the high price, or not at all. By increasing the bargaining power of the asset owner in this way, the right works to the disadvantage of the right holder." In the case of TS's, the TS owner is the asset owner.
> 
> So...I'm still thinking that if I buy resale, I will like ROFR if/when it comes times to sell.



Unlike the example you cite the ROFR in timeshare requires the third party (buyer) to set the price only THEN does the developer swoop or pass. But either way there is no incentive (or even chance) for the buyer to raise the bid as they are skunked by the developer buy and the seller (who does NOT hold the ROFR - the Developer does) has to accept the lowball offer.  He (the asset holder) does not hold the rights to have a bidding war (which could increase price) but rather has to find a buyer who are in short supply overall and may be further limited knowing that even a successful offer can be lost.  When the day comes to sell if you own a ROFR you will NOT be singing the praises of ROFR.


----------



## Redrosesix

timeos2 said:


> Unlike the example you cite the ROFR in timeshare requires the third party (buyer) to set the price only THEN does the developer swoop or pass. But either way there is no incentive (or even chance) for the buyer to raise the bid as they are skunked by the developer buy and the seller (who does NOT hold the ROFR - the Developer does) has to accept the lowball offer.  He (the asset holder) does not hold the rights to have a bidding war (which could increase price) but rather has to find a buyer who are in short supply overall and may be further limited knowing that even a successful offer can be lost.  When the day comes to sell if you own a ROFR you will NOT be singing the praises of ROFR.



I'll admit that I may be biased as I'm hoping that purchasing at HGVC is not just throwing away my money (as opposed to buying one of the TS's that is currently being sold for $1, and in which I'd probably be very happy to pay MF's as opposed to room rates)  

But...I'm not as concerned about low-ball offers as I am of having no offers.  So I guess the object of the game from the sellers' standpoint is to purchase something (resale, of course) that a future buyer would actually want to own at the market price.

But for the time being, this whole discussion has pretty much talked me out of HGVC.  DVC for sure (if I own it longer than 10 years, I probably won't care what it's worth anymore) but the other TS's are seeming pretty scary right now.


----------



## timeos2

*Purchase cost is only the start*



Redrosesix said:


> But for the time being, this whole discussion has pretty much talked me out of HGVC.  DVC for sure (if I own it longer than 10 years, I probably won't care what it's worth anymore) but the other TS's are seeming pretty scary right now.



The key is if it is a quality resort in an area you like to visit or it holds a good trade value as a week or in points what do you care if it sells for a dollar? That becomes your "investment" and shouldn't be hard to recover when you sell. The problem with all upfront costs (purchase cost) for timeshares are that they buy you nothing but the rights to use resort XX at YY or for ZZ points AND pay the fees until you sell. It is those fees that are the true cost of timeshare and history says resorts with brand names - thus paying overhead and more to that organization to keep the name - tend to have higher fees than independently operated/named resorts.  With a little work you can find resorts equal or better than the "brands" that operate independently,are multi-affiliated with exchange systems and have lower (often MUCH lower) fees that make the ownership a great value. That is how our portfolio ended up shaking out (not really a grand plan but luck of discovering resale and buying only top times at resorts or in systems we really liked) and after our buying spree of over a decade ago we are very happy with what we own and have access to now for a very low annual cost. Those get us Hilton, Marriott, Hyatt, DVC and many others if we want them, we know we have great home resorts to use if we don't want to trade and most are in Points systems making it easy and inexpensive to stretch our 6 ownerships to 10+ weeks of use each year if desired. While we love the top brand names owning there never made sense financially when we can trade or rent for far less than the annual fees alone - forget the upfront purchase costs. 

You may have accidentally realized the best way to maximize timeshare ownership isn't through paying the big prices of the name brands.


----------



## JonathanIT

Redrosesix said:


> But for the time being, this whole discussion has pretty much talked me out of HGVC.


That's really sad, because HGVC is a great TS to own.  You don't know what you're missing!


----------



## Redrosesix

timeos2 said:


> You may have accidentally realized the best way to maximize timeshare ownership isn't through paying the big prices of the name brands.



Yup, that's what I'm wondering



JonathanIT said:


> That's really sad, because HGVC is a great TS to own.  You don't know what you're missing!



Well...I did say for the time being.  I need to know I'm doing the right thing -- I would never have been the type to buy from a salesman on a TS tour (those kinds of people just hate people like me  )

HGVC SW will still be there if I do decide to buy.


----------



## Bikeguy

Sandy Lovell said:


> I have been thinking about why would anyone broker would need tainted paperwork in the first place.



This scenario actually works without a broker involved as well, with perhaps extra money to the seller for agreeing to submit a higher ROFR letter to Hilton.

For example, a deal is made to buy a 7000 point Plat week for $4000.  The seller is uneducated and happy to get $4000, however the buyer knows it will not pass ROFR.  After the deal is agreed to, the buyer tells the seller that they will offer an extra $300 if the ROFR letter is higher than the actual price, explaining that Hilton most likely will buy it back otherwise.

Hence, the seller can add $300 to the sale price by agreeing to submit the higher valued letter.

While I recognize it is immoral and illegal to do this, the risk of getting caught is basically zero and I'll bet it's been done before, especially between relatives/friends.

Boy, what a way to establish a reputation with a first post.


----------



## timeos2

*Enjoy them - just don't BUY them!*



Redrosesix said:


> Well...I did say for the time being.  I need to know I'm doing the right thing -- I would never have been the type to buy from a salesman on a TS tour (those kinds of people just hate people like me  )
> 
> HGVC SW will still be there if I do decide to buy.



Unless you want to be at a HGVC every trip (unlikely) you can easily trade in (also to Marriott, DVC and the other "names") with a quality non-name ownership. You aren't giving up USING the name brands you are just avoiding the high costs of purchase and fees they tend to carry.


----------



## Talent312

Redrosesix said:


> But for the time being, this whole discussion has pretty much talked me out of HGVC.



Its rather silly to let one discussion on an esoteric topic, color your thinking about the HGVC system.  What's been said here rarely amounts to a hill of beans for the average seller or buyer.  Prices have held up comparatively well, with or without ROFR, becuz in style and quality, HGVC is more like an Acura TL, as compared to a Honda Civic (your average run-of-the-mill TS).


----------



## PigsDad

timeos2 said:


> You aren't giving up USING the name brands you are just avoiding the high costs of purchase and fees they tend to carry.


But they are "giving up" the benefits of a flexible system like HGVC.  If all you ever want to do is stay exactly a week and are flexible when and where you stay (not always getting your preferred choice), trading into a name brand will work (some of the time).  But if you want 3-4 day weekends, 10-day extended stays, and the ability to all but guarantee that you will get to stay where you want, when you want -- owning a name brand is the only real option.

You just need to decide if the extra costs are worth the benefits.

Kurt


----------



## timeos2

*To be flexible means wide choices beyond one system*



PigsDad said:


> But they are "giving up" the benefits of a flexible system like HGVC.  If all you ever want to do is stay exactly a week and are flexible when and where you stay (not always getting your preferred choice), trading into a name brand will work (some of the time).  But if you want 3-4 day weekends, 10-day extended stays, and the ability to all but guarantee that you will get to stay where you want, when you want -- owning a name brand is the only real option.
> 
> You just need to decide if the extra costs are worth the benefits.
> 
> Kurt



I'm all for flexible that why all my resorts can be or are based in a points system. But a few - my summer Cape Cod for example - are so valuable as weeks that converting to points, even the high value points they offer, doesn't make sense as once I give up the specific fixed week it would be VERY hard to impossible to obtain again.  My Fl week (at a good resort) is float as nearly the whole year  is desirable time and being limited to one week isn't a good choice. That resort is also in Diamond Club - very flexible and corporate access to II - weeks and Points access to RCI.  Then there is my Wyndham which is pure points - go where I want when I want - flexible to the max.  Finally there is my one dog - Westgate - which can be used in II (bit only as an individual week so that was dropped years ago as being of near zero value), RCI weeks - too risky and limited doing week for week trades - or RCI Points - my choice as again they create value where otherwise there is little in this case. 

Add all of those up - 6 weeks total - and purchase cost barely exceeded 1 HGVC week and annual fees aren't 2 weeks of the average upscale HGVC. And I can get not only HGVC when I want but have the flexibility of also getting Marriott, Hyatt, DVC or any other resort in any of my points systems OR RCI /II weeks. I'm not limited to the HGVC system and its primary focus on Orlando/LV. Points and float resorts also offer the 3-4 day stays but I have found that to be far less desirable than I originally thought it would be. That overall package is true flexibility and value for the dollar spent IMO.


----------



## PigsDad

timeos2 said:


> Points and float resorts also offer the 3-4 day stays but I have found that to be far less desirable than I originally thought it would be. That overall package is true flexibility and value for the dollar spent IMO.


To each their own, but I find the 3-4 day stays extremely useful.  LV is one of my favorite places to visit -- but who wants to spend a full week at a time in LV?  I just checked, and I could make a 3-night reservation _*right now*_ for LV checking in December 30th -- _*New Year's Eve on the strip in Las Vegas*_.  That's just one such example of flexibility that I value.  And HGVC has very high trading power if you want to use your points in RCI (weeks or points).

I have owned my HGVC for less than 2 1/2 years (bought resale).  In checking my online account, I have already completed _*17 stays*_ in that time period!  Yes, 17 separate reservations / stays for a total of 61 nights.  Two of those stays were for exchange weeks out of the HGVC system (one RCI and one SFX).  If I broke that down to cost per night, I think that would be very competitive with a any other TS, even taking in the opportunity cost of the initial buy in.

That is the type of flexibility for which I was more than willing to spend a little extra.  I simply could not have done what I have in the last two years outside of HGVC -- even with six "tiger trader" regular weeks.

Again -- to each their own.  But count me as a _very _satisfied HGVC owner.

Kurt


----------



## timeos2

*No need to buy - just enjoy*



PigsDad said:


> To each their own, but I find the 3-4 day stays extremely useful.  LV is one of my favorite places to visit -- but who wants to spend a full week at a time in LV?  I just checked, and I could make a 3-night reservation _*right now*_ for LV checking in December 30th -- _*New Year's Eve on the strip in Las Vegas*_.  That's just one such example of flexibility that I value.  And HGVC has very high trading power if you want to use your points in RCI (weeks or points).



To each his own is the case for sure.  We don't find much value in 3-4 day stays as the cost isn't just in lodging - although those 3-4 days with extra cleaning fees, etc may be at or very close to a 7 day stay - but the time and flight we have to use to get many places.  If we drive its the time - why drive a day to stay 2 or 3? With flights its cost & time - a 10 hour flight for hundreds of dollars for 3-4 days? Not enjoyable or cost effective for us.  After initially thinking a week in one place would be too much we have embraced the 7 day minimum stay for most trips and have even extended some to 10-14 days.  We haven't found it at all necessary to buy into the Hiltons, Marriotts or other branded groups to use those very fine resorts and thus keep our costs way down. By the way we have found the Hiltons to be top notch - I'd even say better than Marriotts in some cases - and the points system much more flexible and desirable than Marriotts single resort / week system that depends on II for exchange.  But despite being tempted we have never purchased either and yet have enjoyed the beautiful resorts when desired over the years. That is the best of timesharing for us.


----------



## bosco0633

everyones vacation and expectations are different, so so true.  My wife and I work shifts, we get tons of 4 day weekends off and love to get away.  We do small hotel trips here and there with the kids, and do Vegas atleast 2 times a year. 

Now we will be doing Vegas 3 or 4 times a year.  Cheap deals offered through HGVC, we live in Ontario, about 45min from the buffalo airport, which has incredible deals.  We are going may 13th for 5 nights and got flights for 70.00 each way. So cheap how can you not go away.

I am very hyper and find anything longer than a week terrible.  I struggle at all inclusive resorts because I find undwinding kills me.  So strange I know, but I need working vacations, thats why we do Vegas its so busy, and we travel to Europe almost every year.  I plan it all and drive so im go go go.  
We do disney once a year with the kids as well and that is very busy.  

I just hope as I get older, I can learn to unwind on vacation.  Sitting around on a beach causes me to stress out, my wife hates me on an all inclusive.  We went to the dominican republic last year and I thought I was going to have a heart attack, i just couldnt relax.

Anyways, I agree, smaller trips forsure, I plan on using my vegas HGVC TS for many stays, especially to go and see the UFC, which I am a big fan.  I think the upfront costs are nothing for the enjoyment that we will get from it.  I dont like cheap vacations, when I go, I do it up nice.  Hell thats what it is all about, getting away from the every day!


----------



## PigsDad

timeos2 said:


> although those 3-4 days with extra cleaning fees, etc may be at or very close to a 7 day stay


That is one nice feature of HGVC -- no extra cleaning fees for stays less than a week.

And I understand not wanting to travel a long distance for only a few days.  A major reason that HGVC works so well for me is that Valdoro (Breckenridge, CO) is only a 2 hour drive for me.  A large number of my stays have been there for ski weekends.  I end up paying less to stay in a top-class ski resort than the Motel 6 along the interstate.

The fact that I don't have to plan out so far in advance compared to RCI trades is a great benefit for me as well.  HGVC may not be for everyone, but it does have some very distinct advantages that you can't get with most other timeshares.

Kurt


----------



## UWSurfer

No worries, John gets to deal with Westgate...more power to him!

(ducking here and staying low)  :ignore: 

To be fair, I think there is quite a bit to what John says about saving the $$ and getting non-HGVC units to book HGVC and others.  And he's been quite complimentary toward HGVC quality.   I will say I'm enjoying my mix of both, HGVC, non-HGVC and RCI points...learning and using the various systems in a mix and match combination. 

For example, while staying the week here in Orlando on I-drive in a 3 bdrm unit, I was able to book with RCI points the Ft. Lauderdale beach club for a night, close to where I was diving the next morning...making for a nice side trip and staying in a place with a great ocean view for motel 6 cash outlays. 

I did a similar stay in December using HHonors and the Marriott rewards points I earned to wrangle lodgings for several nights in Ft. L and the keys.  Next week I'm in Vegas, staying at the HGVC LV Hilton (where I own), but booked it with RCI points from our Summer Bay Vegas week.  

It's nice to have options.


----------



## Sandy VDH

UWSurfer said:
			
		

> It's nice to have options.



I like options.  I have in addition to my HGVC a Wyndham account, which has great flexibility and is a nice compliment to HGVC.


----------



## Redrosesix

So...I just saw an ad for a 4800 point TS at HGVC Tuscany (that's a platinum 1 bdrm, right?) for $2750

That won't pass ROFR, right?

Are there any more updates on HGVC ROFR's?  BTW, it's been pretty quiet over on the Dis ROFR thread too -- but there aren't many people buying and posting their results either.


----------



## Redrosesix

Redrosesix said:


> So...I just saw an ad for a 4800 point TS at HGVC Tuscany (that's a platinum 1 bdrm, right?) for $2750
> 
> That won't pass ROFR, right?



Gone...already.


----------



## alwysonvac

> That won't pass ROFR, right?



If you want it and the price is right for you, just make the offer. 
Don't worry about ROFR. ROFR levels can change at any time. Just make sure all funds will be promptly returned if it doesn't pass ROFR.


----------



## Redrosesix

alwysonvac said:


> If you want it and the price is right for you, just make the offer.
> Don't worry about ROFR. ROFR levels can change at any time. Just make sure all funds will be promptly returned if it doesn't pass ROFR.



thanks for the advice -- I might give it a shot some day, but I'll wait til I'm more familiar with the brokers (that "getting the funds returned" sounds sort of important)


----------



## Seth Nock

*ROFR Data*

I just had:
2 HGVC Las Vegas units 7000 points bought back for $19,300 (for the pair).
HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points bought back for $11,000.
HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points waived @ $10,650
HGVC LAs Vegas Hilton 5000 points waived @ $6,000
HGVC Sea World 7000 points waived @ $11,000
HGVC Sea World 7000 points bought back @ $11,000
HGVC Sea World 5000 points waived @ $5,600
HGVC Sea World 5000 points waived @ $5,500
2 HGVC Sea World 5000 points waived @ $10,400
HGVC Sea World 5000 points waived @ $5,200
HGVC Sea World 5000 points waived @ $5,200
HGVC Hilton Hawaiian Village 9600 points waived @ $35,000


----------



## Hawaii 5-0

Seth Nock said:


> HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points bought back for $11,000.
> HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points waived @ $10,650



Do they just not have a stable idea of how much they are willing to pay or does their decision depend also on other factors than price?


----------



## Talent312

Originally Posted by Seth Nock:
HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points bought back for $11,000.
HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points waived @ $10,650 



Hawaii 5-0 said:


> Do they just not have a stable idea of how much they are willing to pay or does their decision depend also on other factors than price?



It may be a timing issue.  At the time of buy-back, they may have perceived a deficit in their inventory and could flip it quickly, while at the time of waiver, they didn't.  Seth also once noted that sometimes, they'll deliberately kill a deal involving someone who recently toured.


----------



## UWSurfer

Originally Posted by Seth Nock:
HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points bought back for $11,000.
HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points waived @ $10,650 

What I find fascinating is that they are excercising ROFR and buying back units at LV Hilton.   I own there, and even prefer staying there for a number of reasons, but given the inventory they have at the strip property just a mile from this, and how much more posh and larger strip is I wouldn't have thought they'd be interested in the LV Hilton property.

Aside from denying someone who recently toured the property, I suppose they have reason to maintain a certain amount of inventory in their developed resorts at this time.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Thanks for the update Seth.  I was hoping you would post some recent waiver and bought back price points.


----------



## thinze3

Talent312 said:


> ....  Seth also once noted that sometimes, they'll deliberately kill a deal involving someone who recently toured.




That makes no sense and certainly doesn't help HGVC a bit. If anything HGVC would simply be paying more than they should for a "revenge" buyback. The buyer will simply keep trying and adjust his future offers if need be. After discovering the savings on the resale market, the buyer surely won't go running back to buy from Hilton.

*IMO*


----------



## toontoy

One thing that they may be trying to do is raise the values of the timeshares. In my opnion hilton needs to increase the resale value and build in new areas. Disney has done a great job of protecting the value and also resale vs direct are very close. Its better with promotions to buy direct from Disney, but Hilton doesnt really do this and it seems that HGVC is a sour spot for Hilton. They should devlop the properties alongside many of their hotels, similar to what is done in Hawaii. This would be a great low risk expansion.


----------



## jestme

thinze3 said:


> The buyer will simply keep trying and adjust his future offers if need be.
> *IMO*


So then, the only way he can adjust his offers to get passed at ROFR would be up, correct? In that case, ROFR would increase resale pricing.


----------



## Socko33

I was doing some searching...it seems as though Hyatt also has ROFR and their prices always seem to be really high?

Are we going to see HGVC get that expensive? Does Hyatt have much nicer properties?


----------



## brother coony

A lot of ROFR resorts buy back a week if there inventory for that week is low and they have pontential buyers line up on waiting list for that week, I shadow my resort board and they will take an order for a week they dont have and waite till some one try to sell that week , they them call there  waite list buyer,s and  and if its ago with anyone they use there ROFR, buy it and resell it at there mark up
resort know how to make money, they know what they are doing, they are not giving anything away


----------



## thinze3

jestme said:


> So then, the only way he can adjust his offers to get passed at ROFR would be up, correct? In that case, ROFR would increase resale pricing.



Without reigniting that argumant, I am pro ROFR but absolutely do see the points of each side. I simply do not understand why a company would buy back a unit, and potentially pay more than they would normally, simply because someone took a tour. Revenge - I guess.


----------



## Socko33

*Las Vegas Hilton*

Does anyone have the latest prices for a 7,000pt Las Vegas Hilton being bought back via ROFR?

THANKS!


----------



## Bill4728

Socko33 said:


> Does anyone have the latest prices for a 7,000pt Las Vegas Hilton being bought back via ROFR?
> 
> THANKS!





UWSurfer said:


> Originally Posted by Seth Nock:
> HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points bought back for $11,000.
> HGVC Las Vegas Hilton 7000 points waived @ $10,650


Unless you talk to someone like Seth, I think this is the best info we have.


----------



## eugeneleemd

just had a kalia 6200 eoy bought back for 5725.  won an ebay annual 7000 hilton LV for 9300 just now, so wish me luck this time


----------



## bradleym2

*Hawaii ROFR*

Does anyone know what Hilton is buying back in Hawaii? Gold, Platinum, No. of points, etc.?

I don't want to be wasting time on eBay for "bargins" that will just be taken back by Hilton.

Thanks.


----------



## Negociant

Just thought I would check on whether anyone has any current information on HGVC ROFR.  There is the info in this thread and also here:  http://www.timeshareforums.com/foru...rofr-info-reported-sales-last-two-months.html

But wondering if anyone has anything more current to share.  

Thanks.


----------



## RLG

Negociant said:


> Just thought I would check on whether anyone has any current information on HGVC *ROFL*.



A freudian slip?


----------



## gdeyton

Does HGVC have ROFR for affiliates like Charter Club or Eagles Nest?  If so, is there any information about buy backs at Florida affiliates?


----------



## SCMom

*Recently pass ROFR for Sea World*

Hi Everyone,

We recently passed ROFR for HGVC Sea World.  It is a 5000 point package and we paid $3,300 for it on Ebay.  I am guessing that Hilton is not exercising ROFR right now because of the economy.  When I first started researching HGVC resales in June Hilton was still exercising ROFR and I never could have gotten that deal.  I doubt they are selling much in this economy, so why purchase inventory back if you can't sell it?

Emily


----------



## namuh

I have seen some pretty low prices on Ebay recently.  I wonder if they are buying back any of the premium weeks.


----------



## annenp

Seth Nock said:


> Hilton does not need to sell commercial paper to sell their units.  They hold their notes.  Therefore they can still sell and finance.  Their sales are not down anywheres near as much as other developers.
> 
> Hilton, as well as most of the developers using right of first refusal, most definitely has on their computers who recently toured, if they agreed to buy and canceled. Although they may exercise on any of the units, if they have 2 buyers, same price, same unit, they are more likely to exercise right of first refusal on the unit that is from someone who just canceled a deal with them.



thanks for the infor Seth.... what's an 8400 pt platinium seaworld go currently resale??


----------



## smokyhill

*HGVC Las Vegas Strip*



Negociant said:


> Just thought I would check on whether anyone has any current information on HGVC ROFR.  There is the info in this thread and also here:  http://www.timeshareforums.com/foru...rofr-info-reported-sales-last-two-months.html
> 
> But wondering if anyone has anything more current to share.
> 
> Thanks.



Just passed ROFR for LV Strip 4800 pt. platinum @ $6150 Low M/F


----------



## oneohana

gdeyton said:


> Does HGVC have ROFR for affiliates like Charter Club or Eagles Nest?  If so, is there any information about buy backs at Florida affiliates?



Chater Club has no ROFR.
I'm not sure about buy backs, but they had some units that they auctioning off to owners.


----------



## Negociant

SCMom and Smokyhill:
Can you post the MFs you pay on your respective units?  Its the age-old question, buy 5000 gold cheaper and pay higher MFs or 4800 platinum and lower MFs.  But I see that there is a $2,850 difference between what you two paid ($6150 for 1BR Plat and $3330 for 2BR Gold).  So it would be interesting to compare the delta in the MF to see how many years it takes to make up the difference.  I bet its 10 years, no?


----------



## Purseval

We recently bought a 5000 point Gold 2br even year at I-Drive Orlando usage for $2500 and it got approved by Hilton last week.


----------



## smokyhill

Negociant said:


> SCMom and Smokyhill:
> Can you post the MFs you pay on your respective units?  Its the age-old question, buy 5000 gold cheaper and pay higher MFs or 4800 platinum and lower MFs.  But I see that there is a $2,850 difference between what you two paid ($6150 for 1BR Plat and $3330 for 2BR Gold).  So it would be interesting to compare the delta in the MF to see how many years it takes to make up the difference.  I bet its 10 years, no?



Current fees are $513.00 
Will post 2010 fees as soon as I get them


----------



## jsb15

If you can buy  2BR gold week for $0.50 a point and a 2BR platinum week is $1.50/point, then you are paying 40% more maintenance for the same points.  Assuming the value of the weeks stays constant and the average MF is $1100 over the next 5-7 years, then you are better with the platinum weeks as long as interest rates are below 6-7%.  As interest rates go up, the extra money sitting with HGVC to get platinum points and lower MF starts being worth more than the MF savings.  Someone with skills in linear progression could probably write a nice formula.


----------



## yumdrey

What about gold weeks are sold for $0.7/point and 2BR platinum are sold for $1.00/point? How long does it take to make up the initial purchase price difference between gold week 2BR & platinum week 2BR?


----------



## namuh

I don't think that I've seen a 2br platinum for $7000, and I would expect Hilton would buy it back at that price.  

Anyway, the question for somebody like me who wants to get into HGVC is whether the seemingly low gold 2br prices of  3-4K is better than a 1 br platinum for 5K, or even a 2BR platimun for 8.5-10K.  I don't know how many points I would use in a year.  I guess it also depends on when prices will recover, if ever, and whether the platinums will maintain their premium over the gold.

10yrs of $180 a year difference in MF between 1BR and 2BR would be $1,800, not counting the opportunity cost of the money at the start.


----------



## smokyhill

namuh said:


> I don't think that I've seen a 2br platinum for $7000, and I would expect Hilton would buy it back at that price.
> 
> Anyway, the question for somebody like me who wants to get into HGVC is whether the seemingly low gold 2br prices of  3-4K is better than a 1 br platinum for 5K, or even a 2BR platimun for 8.5-10K.  I don't know how many points I would use in a year.  I guess it also depends on when prices will recover, if ever, and whether the platinums will maintain their premium over the gold.
> 
> 10yrs of $180 a year difference in MF between 1BR and 2BR would be $1,800, not counting the opportunity cost of the money at the start.



I was told by a reliable source a recent e-Bay sale (2 bdrm. Platinum) which sold for approx 8800.00 (within last 30 days) did not pass ROFR and Hilton bought it back.
We initally looked at 7000 points EOY. After much studying and some advice from fellow tuggers, we decided 4800 points every year worked best for us. Our current MF is $513.00 yr. and we paid $6150.00 for the TS. I realize we might have been able to do a little better on price, but we wanted the security of dealing with a trusted and respected agent. Fellow tuggers suggested Judi Kozlowski to us and we have been extremely happy with her.

The question you pose of how many points you might use, unfortunately can only be answered by you. It all depends on the amount of time and flexibility you have in getting away. What are your needs, 1brm, 2bdrm 3bdrm? You can always start small like we are and add points down the road if you find yourself short. I think you'll find HGVC a great program with a lot of flexibility.
Good luck on you quest and let us know what you decide to do!


----------



## smokyhill

smokyhill said:


> Current fees are $513.00
> Will post 2010 fees as soon as I get them



2010 = $526.19


----------



## jsb15

*Gold vs. Platinum costs*

I just sat down with my 17 year old who is a wizard with Excel and asked him to work up a spreadsheet comparing total costs between Platinum and Gold weeks.  I tried variable purchase prices, maintenance fees, annual percent increases in MF, and interest rates under the assumption that the principle invested would retain its value with a resale purchase but not go up or down.  I then multiplied the cumulative costs for a Gold week x 7/5 to account for or equalize them both at 7000 points.  Alternatively, you could compare the costs of 7 Gold weeks vs. 5 Platinum weeks yielding 35K points.  I assumed at some point the higher opportunity cost of a Platinum week (more money tied up in the purchase not earning compound interest elsewhere) + MF would exceed the Gold Purchase costs in the short term.  That was never the case until I assumed hyperinflation of 10%+.  At normal interest rates in the 3-7% range, and at normal resale prices, there is no time period where you can justify a gold purchase.  If 7000 point packages cost $20K+ resale or interest rates soared, there might be a point at which a gold purchase was warranted.


----------



## namuh

jsb15 said:


> I just sat down with my 17 year old who is a wizard with Excel and asked him to work up a spreadsheet comparing total costs between Platinum and Gold weeks.  I tried variable purchase prices, maintenance fees, annual percent increases in MF, and interest rates under the assumption that the principle invested would retain its value with a resale purchase but not go up or down.  I then multiplied the cumulative costs for a Gold week x 7/5 to account for or equalize them both at 7000 points.  Alternatively, you could compare the costs of 7 Gold weeks vs. 5 Platinum weeks yielding 35K points.  I assumed at some point the higher opportunity cost of a Platinum week (more money tied up in the purchase not earning compound interest elsewhere) + MF would exceed the Gold Purchase costs in the short term.  That was never the case until I assumed hyperinflation of 10%+.  At normal interest rates in the 3-7% range, and at normal resale prices, there is no time period where you can justify a gold purchase.  If 7000 point packages cost $20K+ resale or interest rates soared, there might be a point at which a gold purchase was warranted.



Unless 5000 points a year is all you would use.


----------



## jsb15

If 5000 points is all you would use, then a 4800 point 1BR platinum would be the item to purchase.  If you wanted to use 5000 points a year and borrowed from the subsequent year, it would take 24 years of annual borrrowing to use up all of your next year's points.


----------



## SCMom

*Gold vs. platinum*

Someone asked me to post our maintenance fees for our recent 5,000 gold purchase at Sea World.  Without looking them up, I think they are around $850 per year, not counting the $95 annual fee we already pay with our MarBrisa ownership.  We own 7,000 points with MarBrisa and added this on.

As for the gold vs. platinum debate, you can do lots of spreadsheets, but here is a top level.  I purchased our gold for $3,300 for 5,000 points.  I just looked at recent sales on ebay and the only Hilton-developed non-affiliate 7,000 point platinum package sold for just over $9,000.  I realize that I am paying the same maintenance fees for only 5,000 points that the buyer is paying for his or her 7,000 points, but I also just paid $6,000 less.  It would take years for that differential to pay off for me.  There weren't any recent platinum 4800 point packages for me to compare.  I think there are plenty of times that a gold package can make sense, if you are buying resale.  

Emily


----------



## LBTRS

SCMom said:


> As for the gold vs. platinum debate, you can do lots of spreadsheets, but here is a top level.  I purchased our gold for $3,300 for 5,000 points. I think there are plenty of times that a gold package can make sense, if you are buying resale.
> 
> Emily



I'm trying to decide if a 5000 point gold level for around $3000 is a smart move. It's a $6000 initial savings so I'm having trouble seeing how this is such a bad deal for us since the time we travel is during the gold period anyway?


----------



## steeler

smokyhill said:


> I was told by a reliable source a recent e-Bay sale (2 bdrm. Platinum) which sold for approx 8800.00 (within last 30 days) did not pass ROFR and Hilton bought it back.



I purchased a 1 BDRM Gold (3400 pts) at Las Vegas Hilton for $1,800.  It just passed Hilton's ROFR.  It is my understanding that because of the economy they are not excercising their ROFR. 

I know that 3400 is not a lot of points within HGVC, but, it's enough for me, especially since I don't plan on using the points all at once (mulitple usage vs one week usage).

For the price point, likely usage, and low MFs for LV -- purchasing gold points, in my instance, absolutely made sense.


----------



## SCMom

*Depends on your needs...*



jsb15 said:


> If 5000 points is all you would use, then a 4800 point 1BR platinum would be the item to purchase.  If you wanted to use 5000 points a year and borrowed from the subsequent year, it would take 24 years of annual borrrowing to use up all of your next year's points.



I have a family of six, so a 4800 point package would not book me a two bedroom each year for a week in gold season.  We could do fewer days, but some people might want a full week or to take advantage of home club booking.  You can't home club book a two bedroom with a 4800 point package (I guess unless you are in silver season). 

Emily


----------



## Negociant

*Gold v. Platinum Case Study*



SCMom said:


> Someone asked me to post our maintenance fees for our recent 5,000 gold purchase at Sea World.  Without looking them up, I think they are around $850 per year, not counting the $95 annual fee we already pay with our MarBrisa ownership.  We own 7,000 points with MarBrisa and added this on.
> 
> As for the gold vs. platinum debate, you can do lots of spreadsheets, but here is a top level.  I purchased our gold for $3,300 for 5,000 points.  I just looked at recent sales on ebay and the only Hilton-developed non-affiliate 7,000 point platinum package sold for just over $9,000.  I realize that I am paying the same maintenance fees for only 5,000 points that the buyer is paying for his or her 7,000 points, but I also just paid $6,000 less.  It would take years for that differential to pay off for me.  There weren't any recent platinum 4800 point packages for me to compare.  I think there are plenty of times that a gold package can make sense, if you are buying resale.
> 
> Emily



To me, points are points.  I have never booked my home week and never will, but I do use our points very well and have been on many awesome trips, including trips where I was able to get rooms for friends and family.  Now I am interested in adding points.  If we want to compare things accurately, you need to look at the cost of 5000 pts vs 5000 point (or 4800 since its close), not what 7,000 would cost.  

Data:  Smokeyhill paid $2820 more for his 4800 platinum than SCMom for her 5000 gold ($6150 vs. $3330) but Smokeyhill's MFs are $324 less per year than SCMom's ($526 v. $850).  It will take Smokeyhill 9 years to make up the difference.  

Both did well in my opinion.  SCMom did well and  paid much less than platinum but she has to pay more in MFs.  That may be the best way to go if one plans to sell the TS in a few years or if cash for entry is limited.  Smokyhill did well too but paid more upfront for lower MFs.  This is a good deal if one will hold the TS more than a decade.  

Thanks for the info everyone.  Helpful stuff.  On balance, I am kind of leaning toward the 5000 point gold because saving a bundle upfront sounds good, and who can think 10 years ahead!


----------



## chriskre

Negociant said:


> To me, points are points.  I have never booked my home week and never will, but I do use our points very well and have been on many awesome trips, including trips where I was able to get rooms for friends and family.  Now I am interested in adding points.  If we want to compare things accurately, you need to look at the cost of 5000 pts vs 5000 point (or 4800 since its close), not what 7,000 would cost.
> 
> Data:  Smokeyhill paid $2820 more for his 4800 platinum than SCMom for her 5000 gold ($6150 vs. $3330) but Smokeyhill's MFs are $324 less per year than SCMom's ($526 v. $850).  It will take Smokeyhill 9 years to make up the difference.
> 
> Both did well in my opinion.  SCMom did well and  paid much less than platinum but she has to pay more in MFs.  That may be the best way to go if one plans to sell the TS in a few years or if cash for entry is limited.  Smokyhill did well too but paid more upfront for lower MFs.  This is a good deal if one will hold the TS more than a decade.
> 
> Thanks for the info everyone.  Helpful stuff.  On balance, I am kind of leaning toward the 5000 point gold because saving a bundle upfront sounds good, and who can think 10 years ahead!



I agree with you on this.  Points are points and who can plan 10 years from now.  Hell, I may not even be alive in 10 years so I'm doing like you and buying an EOY 5000 gold for a steal of a deal, hopefully if it passes ROFR. 
Very excited.


----------



## jsb15

Negociant said:


> To me, points are points.  I have never booked my home week and never will, but I do use our points very well and have been on many awesome trips, including trips where I was able to get rooms for friends and family.  Now I am interested in adding points.  If we want to compare things accurately, you need to look at the cost of 5000 pts vs 5000 point (or 4800 since its close), not what 7,000 would cost.
> 
> Data:  Smokeyhill paid $2820 more for his 4800 platinum than SCMom for her 5000 gold ($6150 vs. $3330) but Smokeyhill's MFs are $324 less per year than SCMom's ($526 v. $850).  It will take Smokeyhill 9 years to make up the difference.
> 
> Both did well in my opinion.  SCMom did well and  paid much less than platinum but she has to pay more in MFs.  That may be the best way to go if one plans to sell the TS in a few years or if cash for entry is limited.  Smokyhill did well too but paid more upfront for lower MFs.  This is a good deal if one will hold the TS more than a decade.
> 
> Thanks for the info everyone.  Helpful stuff.  On balance, I am kind of leaning toward the 5000 point gold because saving a bundle upfront sounds good, and who can think 10 years ahead!



The problem with this argument saying the out of pocket costs are the same after 9 years is that at the end of that time SmokeyHill has a week valued several thousand dollars more for resale purposes than SCMom.  I would argue, _assuming you could afford either Gold or Platinum points_, that the purchase price is irrelevant and that the added cost to Platinum points is only the "opportunity cost" or interest cost of having more money tied up with HGVC on a Platinum package.  At any reasonable interest rate, you are a loser with Gold points year one since the additional MF/point far exceed the additional interest costs.  This assumes the weeks retain their value for resale.  If you were looking at the Hilton Club of NY which is a right to use property with no residual value at the end of the 23 year term, then this analysis would not apply since your Platinum point week value depreciates to zero.  I did not account for this scenario on the spreadsheet.  Going back to the example above, the additional $2820 that SmokeyHill pays (until he/she sells) costs $141 of additional lost interest/investment income assuming a 5% rate of return.  You would need a return of more than 11% every year to justify the increased MF with Gold points even from year one.  By disclaimer, I am not an economist or accountant but if there is a glaring fallacy in my analysis, I would love to hear it.


----------



## hockeybrain

I would argue that points are points unless you own at HHV :whoopie: .   To me provided one is looking at long term ownership and time share use it always makes sense to buy platinum unless the cost differential becomes outstanding or you really want to book your home resort during gold season, which I believe usually does not happen - unless you own HHV  .


----------



## Purseval

jsb15 said:


> By disclaimer, I am not an economist or accountant but if there is a glaring fallacy in my analysis, I would love to hear it.



You messed up right at the beginning when you figured that resales were worth something :hysterical: Instead of thinking of it as real estate, think of it as beer.  You  have a slightly better brand than I do, I got more for my money and in the end we'll both get a nice buzz then it will all end up down the toilet.


----------



## flexonguy

Perseval

Funny:hysterical:


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## flexonguy

Seth

How do we know for sure that the resellers on EBay or not reporting inflated selling prices to HGVC ROFR department thru fraudulent contracts?  How does the resort know for sure what the actually selling price is?


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## chriskre

flexonguy said:


> Seth
> 
> How do we know for sure that the resellers on EBay or not reporting inflated selling prices to HGVC ROFR department thru fraudulent contracts?  How does the resort know for sure what the actually selling price is?



Maybe they check the ebay site.


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## thinze3

thinze3 said:


> *April 2009:* Please don't kill me you HGVC owners, but I wouldn't be surprised to see these 7000 platinum points selling, and passing ROFR, for $1 a point before long.




Has we reached this price yet? $1 = 1 point


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## chriskre

thinze3 said:


> Has we reached this price yet? $1 = 1 point



Yes we have.  I just bought one.


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## yumdrey

For gold season, yes, it's easy to see. For platinum 7000 (not 4800), it's still very hard to find even on ebay. There's one ebay auction which is over tomorrow, so let's see...
(I am talking about HGVC resorts, not affiliated resorts like bay club)


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## namuh

The Flamingo continues to sell for more than the Karen Vegas property.  A 7000 platinum just went for over $10,000 on Ebay, and they always seem to be around there.  The main thing is that the sellers are letting them go at 10,000 where before it didn't meet reserve.


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## Elster

for 7000 points I think the pricing seems to be around 8500-10000USD resale, this seems to be about average min-max sale prices given the market at the moment - I still can't see a 7000 platinum reaching the dollar a point area, frankly, at least not within the US HGVC properties....
I'd be happy with picking up 7000 points for around 9k USD - to my mind without the complex maths, you're always going to get better resale on a platinum week than a gold and if you intend to use the system, points are points then just get the cheapest total cost of ownership you can over a realistic period, say 10 years...thats why I've bought (so far) outside the US the keep the MF down....


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## akyam

namuh said:


> The Flamingo continues to sell for more than the Karen Vegas property.  A 7000 platinum just went for over $10,000 on Ebay, and they always seem to be around there.  The main thing is that the sellers are letting them go at 10,000 where before it didn't meet reserve.



I'm guessing the reason the Flamingo goes for more is that they recently finished a special assessment and upgrades to the property.  The Karen property will probably be getting an assessment in the not-so-distant future, so that has to factor into the annual MFs for cost of ownership.

We are just finalizing a purchase at Karen for <$10K, but just barely and that was at the end of last year (and it wasn't on eBay).  It already passed ROFR and am just waiting for the deed to record...


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## JM48

Just passed 5000 pts at Karen Ave. in Las Vegas.
It is Gold Season.

Paid $2700.00 on e bay.

JM


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## Elster

Recently acquired 5000 points GOLD in Scotland, 1800USD - ebay ... as we say here, well chuffed


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## TSResalez

Seth Nock said:


> Yes, I have only had 1 a Marriott bought back in the last month.



What did they buy back?


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## TSResalez

Seth Nock said:


> The unlicensed broker is taking the units from the seller with power of attorneys.  They are telling the seller that it is worthless and often charging the sellers to get rid of the units.  If the unit was bought by the developer, and the check was sent to the seller, the seller would know they had been scammed, and the unlicensed broker may not get their check.  That is why the unlicensed broker may forge right of first refusal docs.  They also own the closing company, so they have no one to oversee the closing process. Note, it is realy a closing company, not escrow company, as it is not third party.



Timeshare Closing Services?


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## Bill4728

> Originally Posted by Seth Nock
> Yes, I have only had 1 a Marriott bought back in the last month.





TSResalez said:


> What did they buy back?



Seth posted this in Dec 200*8* 


 No one is reporting any Marriott  ROFR buybacks in the past year or so.

BUT please note that HGVC *is *using their ROFR to buy back really low offers.


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## msbrinkley

*HGVC Buybacks*

Any buyback info from recent resales available?


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## riz

msbrinkley said:


> Any buyback info from recent resales available?



TimeShare Forums usually has someone posting reguarly (every couple months or so)

http://www.timeshareforums.com/foru...fr-info-reported-sales-last-two-months-3.html


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