# New water softener makes water undrinkable



## 3kids4me (Nov 19, 2010)

We recently retreated our water for acidity and by doing that (with calcium carbonate) it dramatically increases the hardness of the water and leaves white power all over your dishes (plus hair and skin feel gross).  So we decided to rent a water softener (low commitment) from Culligan.

They put it in last night, and the water tastes absolutely disgusting...sort of like strong plastic.  It is basically undrinkable.  

They are supposed to come out to figure out what the problem is today...they guy said that sometimes potassium doesn't react well with what is already in the water and that we may need to switch to sodium, but I can't imagine that this would result in such an awful taste.  Right now we have bypassed it but realize that we need to do something.

Does anyone have any experience with this situation?

Thanks!

Sharon


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## b2bailey (Nov 21, 2010)

*Don't Drink the Water*

We rented a home with a water softener. Since I was unfamiliar I 'googled' about it and I seem to remember it said: "Don't drink the water." I was even a bit leery about using it to cook.


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## laurac260 (Nov 21, 2010)

b2bailey said:


> We rented a home with a water softener. Since I was unfamiliar I 'googled' about it and I seem to remember it said: "*Don't drink the water.*" I was even a bit leery about using it to cook.



huh?  Why?


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## 3kids4me (Nov 21, 2010)

We're still struggling with this.  The water basically has a very strong plastic taste (and smell).  The Culligan guy even called it "nasty"!  We've figured out that the taste is probably coming from the resin in the softener, but Culligan says that it has to "season" and will "eventually go away".  They are installing a RO filter on our kitchen faucet for free for two months so we have water for drinking and cooking.

We love the taste of our hard water (we have a well) but apparently the hard water can wreak havoc on your pipes (in addition to your hair and skin).  We also have to treat our water for acidity, and the treatment leaves a coating of lime on utensils coming out of the dishwasher and had increased the hardness of the water even more, hence the idea of the softener.

Right now we are shutting it down at night so that we can brush our teeth and drink from all taps, and then turning it back on for showers and dishwashing.  Of course, this means that hard water will still be running through our pipes, but the taste of the softened water is terrible.  We've agreed to give it a couple of months to see if the "seasoning" that Culligan is talking about really will happen.  It can't be good to ingest water that tastes like plastic, but it's really so foul tasting anyway that we wouldn't even be tempted.  I've done some googling and have found a few cases similar to ours but no one has come back and said that they solved it so I can't get any good information.

Was hoping that someone on TUG had been through this.  We had a softener in our previous home with no issues at all, but we didn't have all of the other treatments that we have in this home, and the softener in the previous home also wasn't brand new.


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## MuranoJo (Nov 21, 2010)

When we built our home about 17 years ago, the water softener wasn't directed to areas commonly used for drinking water (i.e., kitchen sink, water/ice dispenser on frig, etc.)-it -was plumbed just for the bathroom areas. 

It was my understanding the water softener injected alot of sodium into the line, but I'm far from an expert.  We have a private well and the water is fine, but very hard.  On the other hand, I occasionally drink out of the taps in the bathrooms and I can't tell too much difference.


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## Passepartout (Nov 21, 2010)

Our local water is very heavily laden with calcium. We have a Sears water softener that recharges on demand which is seldom. I probably only use about 20 lbs of salt a month.

While the RO filter may be a good short time fix, it just masks the problem. I'd ask Culligan to replace their unit. They should be well versed on local water conditions and fixes for it, and if the best they can do is RO, then call Kinnetico or some other outfit that will put in RO throughout your system.

I think Culligan's answer is unacceptable.

Jim Ricks


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## 3kids4me (Nov 22, 2010)

muranojo said:


> When we built our home about 17 years ago, the water softener wasn't directed to areas commonly used for drinking water (i.e., kitchen sink, water/ice dispenser on frig, etc.)-it -was plumbed just for the bathroom areas.
> 
> It was my understanding the water softener injected alot of sodium into the line, but I'm far from an expert.  We have a private well and the water is fine, but very hard.  On the other hand, I occasionally drink out of the taps in the bathrooms and I can't tell too much difference.



Unfortunately our house is only plumbed with one line going everywhere.  I understand newer construction allows this, but we don't have a choice. 



Passepartout said:


> Our local water is very heavily laden with calcium. We have a Sears water softener that recharges on demand which is seldom. I probably only use about 20 lbs of salt a month.
> 
> While the RO filter may be a good short time fix, it just masks the problem. I'd ask Culligan to replace their unit. They should be well versed on local water conditions and fixes for it, and if the best they can do is RO, then call Kinnetico or some other outfit that will put in RO throughout your system.
> 
> ...



I agree that this is not a long term solution, and the idea was to have the RO until the softener "seasons".  Besides, we like to drink out of bathroom taps too!  I will call Kinnectico for another opinion.  Do you have reason to think they are a better company than Culligan?


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## Fern Modena (Nov 22, 2010)

I used to have a Culligan system.  I never heard of it having to "season." That is preposterous!  I had it for five years.  I switched to Lifesource, which you probably don't have access to.  But here's the thing about Culligan soft water systems, although maybe it is only mine...it was attached to the hot water only, so it actually only worked on showers and dishwashing.  I use cold water to wash clothes, etc.

Fern



3kids4me said:


> Unfortunately our house is only plumbed with one line going everywhere.  I understand newer construction allows this, but we don't have a choice.
> 
> I agree that this is not a long term solution, and the idea was to have the RO until the softener "seasons".  Besides, we like to drink out of bathroom taps too!  I will call Kinnectico for another opinion.  Do you have reason to think they are a better company than Culligan?


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## 3kids4me (Nov 22, 2010)

Fern Modena said:


> I used to have a Culligan system.  I never heard of it having to "season." That is preposterous!  I had it for five years.  I switched to Lifesource, which you probably don't have access to.  But here's the thing about Culligan soft water systems, although maybe it is only mine...it was attached to the hot water only, so it actually only worked on showers and dishwashing.  I use cold water to wash clothes, etc.
> 
> Fern



Thanks Fern.  I've read about systems that are only attached to hot water.  I'm not sure ours can be hooked up that way because of the way our house is plumbed, but I had mentioned that to the Culligan guy and he made the point that you aren't really getting super soft water in the shower because there is always some cold water mixed in.  (He's right, but it does seem like another solution to look into, and even if the water isn't completely soft it would be softer than it is now.)


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## Passepartout (Nov 22, 2010)

An excellent solution might be to have the softener plumbed in ahead of the water heater. You like the taste of your water. Your houseplants won't like softened water (some sodium). Yes, you will lose some of the benefit of all soft water, but you'll get most of them.

As to the other question, Kinnetico is a reverse osmosis system rather than a salt based softener. I don't know that one is better than the other, but if Culligan is offering you a RO system to remedy a problem with theirs, it's worth a look.... Jim


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## 3kids4me (Nov 22, 2010)

Passepartout said:


> An excellent solution might be to have the softener plumbed in ahead of the water heater. You like the taste of your water. Your houseplants won't like softened water (some sodium). Yes, you will lose some of the benefit of all soft water, but you'll get most of them.
> 
> As to the other question, Kinnetico is a reverse osmosis system rather than a salt based softener. I don't know that one is better than the other, but if Culligan is offering you a RO system to remedy a problem with theirs, it's worth a look.... Jim



Hi Jim,

We actually don't have a water heater.  Most houses with wells do have them because scale would form inside of them.  Our water is heated by pipes running through the furnace, I think.

Sharon


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## Passepartout (Nov 22, 2010)

3kids4me said:


> We actually don't have a water heater.   Our water is heated by pipes running through the furnace, I think.
> 
> Sharon



Interesting.... It's still a water heater, though unconventional. How do you get hot water in the summer? Jim


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## 3kids4me (Nov 22, 2010)

Furnace still heats the hot water in summer.  But, the water in our baseboard heating system doesn't circulate in the summer so even though that water is getting heated as well, it doesn't heat the house.


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## DonM (Nov 22, 2010)

Passepartout said:


> Interesting.... It's still a water heater, though unconventional.



Actually it's very conventional at least in the NorthEast. It's called indirect heating.

http://www.oilheatamerica.com/index.mv?screen=waterheaters


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## DonM (Nov 22, 2010)

3kids4me said:


> We recently retreated our water for acidity and by doing that (with calcium carbonate) it dramatically increases the hardness of the water and leaves white power all over your dishes (plus hair and skin feel gross).  So we decided to rent a water softener (low commitment) from Culligan.
> 
> Sharon



So how low is the PH before treatment with the soda ash?

Also do you know the hardness before and after?


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## 3kids4me (Nov 23, 2010)

DonM said:


> So how low is the PH before treatment with the soda ash?
> 
> Also do you know the hardness before and after?



PH is 6.2 before treatment (but we had let treatment go for awhile so I guess we had lower PH water in our system for awhile but less hard.)  PH is 7.2 after treatment.

Hardness was at a 5 before treatment to raise PH and is now at a 10 after PH treatment (according to Culligan) but company that did PH treatment (our pump company) said it was at an 8.  Calcite deposits on dishes became worse and you could also feel effects on hair.  Water tasted fine though, both before and after the new bags of lime were put in to raise the PH.

Softener apparently reduces hardness to zero, but water tastes terrible.


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## DonM (Nov 23, 2010)

3kids4me said:


> PH is 6.2 before treatment (but we had let treatment go for awhile so I guess we had lower PH water in our system for awhile but less hard.)  PH is 7.2 after treatment.
> 
> Hardness was at a 5 before treatment to raise PH and is now at a 10 after PH treatment (according to Culligan) but company that did PH treatment (our pump company) said it was at an 8.  Calcite deposits on dishes became worse and you could also feel effects on hair.  Water tasted fine though, both before and after the new bags of lime were put in to raise the PH.
> 
> Softener apparently reduces hardness to zero, but water tastes terrible.



Sharon: 

I've owned two homes in upper Fairfield County. The first home had a low PH and more importantly too much iron which you could see on the bottom of a clear glass of water. We treated both issues with a filter system which precipitated out the iron and added some soda ash to raise up the PH. The results were very good- the water was better than just tolerable- it certainly wasn't offensive. We didn't like the softener idea because it would backwash a significant amount of salt & water into our septic system.

My current home I went through a thorough chemical analysis which enlightened me to the complexities of water analysis. My problem was that I was getting pin hole leaks in my potable cold water pipes. The executive summary was that the builder put in cheap copper pipes, but I also had aggressive water. Most water experts then assumed that the PH was low, which it was not (7.3). I had a combination of issues that resulted in the agressive water. I fixed the problem by replacing the copper with a plastic pipe called PEX.

The scale of your hardness must be a different scale from what I have. On my scale my water's hardness is 150 which is considered hard. Over 200 is very hard.

Maybe you can adjust the PH without the downside of increasing the hardness. I can recommend two different water companies- that I've used and been happy with- Greco & Haines (Derby?) and Professional Water in Ridgefield. If I were you I think I'd listen to both of them perhaps starting with Greco & Haines.

good luck

don


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## 3kids4me (Nov 23, 2010)

Hi Don,

Thanks for your comments.  I'm in lower Fairfield County.

I think that I'm talking grains per gallon and you're talking milligrams per liter.  Your 150 mg/L seems to translate to about 8 or 9 on the grains/gallon scale.  http://www.fcwa.org/water/hardness.htm

I hadn't heard of soda ash before and didn't realize that salt might affect our septic.  I do understand that pinhole leaks could be a problem and we do have copper pipes, and replacing all of them would probably be crazy expensive. But we haven't had any pinhole leaks (as far as we know!) in the 15 years that we lived here and I assume our pipes date back to the 70s.  What was causing the leaks if your water did not have a low PH?  We have no iron but do have radon and we have a system for that.

I'll tell you, this country living is a big pain sometimes!!

BTW, we had called Professional Water Systems but didn't care for the salesman.  I will try the other company you suggested.  Thanks again.

Sharon



DonM said:


> Sharon:
> 
> I've owned two homes in upper Fairfield County. The first home had a low PH and more importantly too much iron which you could see on the bottom of a clear glass of water. We treated both issues with a filter system which precipitated out the iron and added some soda ash to raise up the PH. The results were very good- the water was better than just tolerable- it certainly wasn't offensive. We didn't like the softener idea because it would backwash a significant amount of salt & water into our septic system.
> 
> ...


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 23, 2010)

Pinhole leaks in copper pipe is usually associated with low alkalinity - in practical terms it means that the water does not have much bicarbonate.  Soda ash is sodium bicarbonate; hence the reason why that is a fix.

The pinhole leak problem can also be exacerbated with poor copper materials. If there are metallic impurities in the copper - particularly micro-nodules of other metals in the piping - small electric currents will form inside the pipe at those nodules, and the metals at those nodules will be removed by electrolysis, creating a pinhole leak.  

In either case, increasing the carbonate content of the water (such as with soda ash) will help greatly.

If you want to sound smart, ask what the "Langelier Index" is for the water.  If the Langelier is positive, the water will have a tendency to deposit scale.  That protects against pinholes, but does have the potential for plugging.

Negative Langelier means the water will tend to dissolve calcium carbonate. As the Langelier becomes increasing negative the water becomes aggressive, meaning that corrosion increasingly becomes a problem as there is never an  opportunity for carbonate deposits to form to slow down corrosion and pitting reactions. 

Near zero Langelier means the water is in balance.

++++

As to Sharon's observations, i doubt that lack of carbonate is an issue.  

Untreated she says the water tastes fine, but leaves residues in hair, etc, as well as calcite deposits.  That's pretty typical of hard water, and the hardness is caused by calcium and magnesium carbonates.  Her water has plenty of alkalinity.  In fact, since carbonates are less soluble at higher temperature she faces the problem of calcium carbonate (limestone) scale deposits in her hot water system.  The scum whenever soap is used, as in shower, is caused by calcium and magnesium combining with the soap molecules to form an insoluble molecules.  These molecules then like to attach to something organic, such as skin or hair. so that's where they go.  

When she runs that water through a softening system, the calcium and magnesium are removed, leaving water that has very high sodium percentage.  As she noted, that doesn't taste every good (regardless of the separate taste issue that she may be getting from the resin).  If she's using a salt-type of ion-exchange softener, the sodium boost is even greater.


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## 3kids4me (Nov 23, 2010)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> As to Sharon's observations, i doubt that lack of carbonate is an issue.
> 
> Untreated she says the water tastes fine, but leaves residues in hair, etc, as well as calcite deposits.  That's pretty typical of hard water, and the hardness is caused by calcium and magnesium carbonates.  Her water has plenty of alkalinity.  In fact, since carbonates are less soluble at higher temperature she faces the problem of calcium carbonate (limestone) scale deposits in her hot water system.  The scum whenever soap is used, as in shower, is caused by calcium and magnesium combining with the soap molecules to form an insoluble molecules.  These molecules then like to attach to something organic, such as skin or hair. so that's where they go.
> 
> When she runs that water through a softening system, the calcium and magnesium are removed, leaving water that has very high sodium percentage.  As she noted, that doesn't taste every good (regardless of the separate taste issue that she may be getting from the resin).  If she's using a salt-type of ion-exchange softener, the sodium boost is even greater.



I imagine that if the resin issue were resolved, the water would taste a bit flatter than we've been used to but be fine for drinking.  I do like the taste of our hard water, whether treated for alkalinity (or acidity, as the case actually is) or not (we had let the calcium carbonate treatment to raise the PH go for awhile and when they came to rebed it, we did not notice any taste difference afterwards).  

The Culligan guy made us switch from potassium to salt because he said that this somehow can contribute to the horrible plastic taste.  He has not come up with a good explanation for why this is so, however.  The water still tastes very bad, though not as bad as it did before.  (It's maybe an 8/10 on the bad scale as opposed to 10/10.)  The water out of our fridge, which has a carbon filter, is at about a 4/10 so that filter does help.  Regardless, it's such a bad aftertaste that no one in the family is very happy right now!!

Culligan is putting in a carbon filter downstairs for the whole system, and a RO under the kitchen sink so that at least we have one source of decent drinking water.  But to me this isn't a long term solution since I want to be able to drink/brush teeth out of our bathrooms.  Plus, I feel like we are just adding more equipment.

Ugh...what a mess!


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 23, 2010)

Did they do a mineral analysis of water (principal cations and anions)??  Do you have/can you get a copy?  What does it say?


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## 3kids4me (Nov 23, 2010)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Did they do a mineral analysis of water (principal cations and anions)??  Do you have/can you get a copy?  What does it say?



Nah.  Most of these companies can only do on-the-spot tests for hardness and alkalinity.  I imagine anything fancier would require sending it away (and me paying gobs of money).  And...whatever is causing the plastic taste...I wonder if it would even turn up if they don't know what they are looking for....

(I'm sure we must have had a water analysis when we moved in, since we have a well.  Or perhaps we just did the basic tests even back then, although we did have to include radon.  But nothing fancy since then.)


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## DonM (Nov 23, 2010)

3kids4me said:


> Hi Don,
> 
> 
> I hadn't heard of soda ash before and didn't realize that salt might affect our septic.


 
The system that was proposed to us at the time automatically backwashed daily some incredible amount of water into the septic. The added salt didn't help either.



3kids4me said:


> ... What was causing the leaks if your water did not have a low PH?



A combination of things- (Steve Nelson seems to know what he's talking about- maybe he's a chemist?) Basically I have a negative Langelier index which means that the inner copper pipe doesn't form a protective barrier. (The neg index represents factors that don't allow that protective barrier to form). I also have other factors that don't help- PH 7.3, many dissolved solids, a high oxygen content, high conductivity. I also have a high Ryznar index which I'm not sure what that implies?

CL&P did my analysis for free. We originally thought that the cause of my issues was what's called a "Blue Water" corrosion- a problem with grounding of the electric lines coming into the house.


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