# Marriott - direct from developer vs from resale market



## seema (Aug 19, 2008)

In the other thread that I started (in which I did not ask the question, but some of the answers responded to this question) - link: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79628


most of the people suggested that buying a property on the resale market has the advantage (esp with price) which is not outweighed by buying directly from the developer (mainly having access to Marriott points).

If so, most people (esp those who participate in this bulletin board, and are aware of the resale market) would buy Marriott units through the resale market. However, my guess is that the majority of TUG participants (on the Marriott forum) still purchase directly from the developer. Is that the case? If so, what are the reasons (not mentioned in the other thread)  that one buys from the developer versus buying from a resale realtor/resale web site/another owner directly.


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## qlaval (Aug 19, 2008)

seema said:


> ... my guess is that the majority of TUG participants (on the Marriott forum) still purchase directly from the developer. Is that the case? .....



I don't think that's the case


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## Valleykat (Aug 20, 2008)

> If so, what are the reasons (not mentioned in the other thread) that one buys from the developer versus buying from a resale realtor/resale web site/another owner directly.


I didn't read the other thread, but in our case and probably many, in all honesty, the answer is simple: IGNORANCE.  We would not purchase direct again and don't find the value in the points that were so highly promoted in our presentation.  That said, we are trying not to live by regrets, but make the best and the most of it now.


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## sandesurf (Aug 20, 2008)

I can only speak for us... We bought directly from Marriott in 1995. Long before knowing of resale or TUG. After learning the ropes, so to speak, we purchased our 2nd Marriott "resale" from a private party off TUG! Saved us thousands and have been treated like first class Marriott owners at both properties. 
In 1995 we also bought into a different timshare system, from the developer, and have since bought two more, in the same system, through resale purchases (one from EBAY), and feel very pleased with those! 
Do we regret buying from the developers? Yes! But I've also learned how to get the most out of our units, from reading on TUG, and making the most of them!
The talk about Marriott trying to restrict resale buyer's reservations to 6 months doesn't worry me. I'm sure IF and when that happens we'll be grandfathered in. The only problem would arrise if we wanted to sell it, I suppose. Luckily, I don't foresee that needing to happen.
If you think about it, all that resticted talk could sure be a sales tactic from Marriott! Causing people to shy away from the resale market. Lucky us!  
Live and learn


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## sandesurf (Aug 20, 2008)

Valleykat said:


> I didn't read the other thread, but in our case and probably many, in all honesty, the answer is simple: IGNORANCE.  We would not purchase direct again and don't find the value in the points that were so highly promoted in our presentation.  That said, we are trying not to live by regrets, but make the best and the most of it now.



Hey Vallykat! GMTA!


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## Latravel (Aug 20, 2008)

I don't agree at all that most people from the TUG board buy resale.  Those that purchased from the developer are just not as vocal since it takes some courage to be pro-"direct purchase".  It is also absolutely not true that ignorance is the reason people buy from the developer.

I am an engineer, so is my husband, and we usually over analyze the heck out of everything (with formulas, cost/benefit analysis, the works) and we purchased directly from the developer.  In fact, we just purchased our 3rd week last month, all from Marriott.  The benefits were so great (points, Marriott hotel vacations, no ownership restrictions, safety from future program changes, etc), that, if I dare to be brave, I can't see how people wouldn't buy direct.  I understand that saving money in the beginning is the main reason but the future benefits make up for the cost difference.  

I would not have enjoyed the full benefits of a Marriott purchase if I bought resale, so I feel it's important to constantly state the other point of view for the sake of balance.


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## sandesurf (Aug 20, 2008)

Latravel said:


> I would not have enjoyed the full benefits of a Marriott purchase if I bought resale, so I feel it's important to constantly state the other point of view for the sake of balance.



What "Full benefits" are you talking about??   

The points are the ONLY thing resale buyers don't get. I say this as both a developer buyer, who got a ton of points w/purchase and a resale buyer. The first few years of owning, back in the late 90's, you could easily trade into other Vacation Club Villas with points. Those days are over. Trading in your whole 1 or 2 bd. Villa (plus a fee), for points, for a week (or less) in hotels does not seem like a good value for the points. Better to rent out or lock-off the 2 bd. and trade into bigger or better places. Which you can certainly do with a resale unit.
As I said above, We've been treated as respected Marriott owners at our resale property, MOC, and have gotten our first choice for reservations, a summer week, each time.


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## Latravel (Aug 20, 2008)

One of the benefits of purchasing a timeshare from a large hotel chain is the ability to access their hotel units.  If you buy resale, you cannot trade in your timeshare unit for a hotel unit.  This may not be important to you, but I like to go to places where there are no timeshare units.  I want to travel and see the world.  If I bought resale, I could not enjoy the full benefits of owning a Marriott timeshare since I couldn't trade in my unit and stay in their hotels all over the world.  I would be stuck in my unit or another timeshare.  Once my young children are grown, I won't want to travel in the same way.  The ability to be flexible in my travel plans is priceless.  The ability to hand this benefit down to my children with the unit eventually by far exceeds the extra money I paid initially for the unit.  I tried to think long term, not short term price savings.  This may not be a benefit to you, but it is to a majority of Marriott owners who purposely paid more for this benefit.  People are not dumb or ignorant, as stated above.


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## Zac495 (Aug 20, 2008)

I bought a developer week AFTER buying resale for the points. I was given great advice here by many (Brian knows a lot I'm sure he'll chime in).

I agree with others - I like the ability to go places that don't have timeshares. the travel package is great - BUT - the FF miles are a MESS right now (not Marriott's fault). Many of the Marriott properties are for a premium - double points (Marriott's fault). Airlines are talking about raising the amount of points needed for a flight - will Marriott lower the amount of points needed to purchase a package? Of course not. So that devalues my points. Biggest thing - you can BUY those points for just under the cost of the maintenance fee (or for less - depending on where you buy). 

I don't regret my purchase. I hope on Friday to report about my points trip (if the airline miles work). That said - had I known what I know today, I wouldn't have bought developer. I would have started buying points every year. I would have more than 10K in my pocket - though I got a great deal.

IF you buy developer for the points - why not purchase the best deal? Manor Club seems to be it 110K every year, maintenance fees are much lower than Hawaii.

Brian mentioned the new Orlando giving away a million points?? Never heard more about that. 

I also own Aruba - bought that resale. It's worth what I paid for it still (maybe a few bucks more -enough to cover closing costs). When we check in, they are so glad to see us. We're OWNERS. The front desk doesn't care that we can't trade for points -he's glad to see us in Aruba.  

I don't worry for one minute that my Aruba resale will have any changes with any future Marriott change. They have to grandfather it. The contract is clear about points - but nothing else. If they do that to my aruba resale, they kill my developer property, too. In other words - they would be telling people at a sales presentation that Marriott timeshares are great to own - but don't ever try to sell them because they'll become useless. Who would buy something they could never sell? Underwear and food - not much else.

But for those who choose to buy developer anyway - I would never call you dumb or ignorant.  As long as you have all the pieces of the puzzle, it's your choice, money, and life.


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## kjd (Aug 20, 2008)

We hve bought three directly from Marriott and one resale.  We bought from Marriott knowing there was a resale market with lower prices.  The use of points was the major reason for us purchasing from Marriott.  It's not a case of "only the points" beiing the difference in value.  That's a rather simplistic view IMHO but it is probably true for a family who wants to vacation in one place often and maybe trade into another TS somewhere else.

The points have allowed us to save thousands on overseas vacations as well as given us free access to Marriott hotels everywhere.  We have already recovered the difference in value and still have the option to use points in the future.  If you look at where Marriott timeshares are located (and all timeshares in general) the locations are quite limited.  Usually in resort areas, but not many in the major cities of the US and Europe.

Younger owners must realize that you will reach an age when you may want to travel without children and explore other parts of the world.  Your travel requirements will change.  MRP will save you a lot of money and make that kind of travel possible.  That's why all of the blustering about buying resale as the only true way to own a TS is bad advice.


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## rpw (Aug 20, 2008)

*Don't forget the obvious*

New developments have no resale (they usually aren't built yet) and used to have a ton of free points!


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## Lawlar (Aug 20, 2008)

*Different Worlds*

Try as I might, I don’t get it.  I mean I really don’t get it.

For the interest you would make on the money you spend to purchase a TS (not to mention the interest to finance, if you go that way) and the MFs, you can stay at some extremely nice hotels.  You can select any date / location / amenities that you want without having to struggle to make a difficult reservation/exchange.  You can swim in pools that aren’t overflowing with children.  You can dine in fine restaurants.

And there isn’t anything to pass on to your children other than increasing maintenance fees and all of the complexities and inconveniences that goes with a TS.  You want to give your children something valuable?  Put your TS “investment” monies in a college fund or give it to your children as a down payment for a home.  

The “points” you get if you trade in your week don’t equal what you could get for less than the yearly maintenance fees.

I won’t put anyone down because they have a different opinion on this subject.  To each their own.  But I do believe that those who favor purchasing TSs from Marriott are living in a parallel universe or they are Marriott reps.  [I'm a Star Trek fan.]


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## thinze3 (Aug 20, 2008)

Zac495 said:


> I bought a developer week AFTER buying resale for the points. I was given great advice here by many (Brian knows a lot I'm sure he'll chime in)...



I did the same! I bought aiohai resale and then bought Legend's Edge retail.

I would not by Hawaii from Marriott due to the high MF's and the low amount of points offered. I did by Legend's Edge as it offered 100K points every year and lower MF's (also I can drive to it).

Although unlikely, I would buy again from Marriott if the incentives and points were high enough to make it worthwhile.


Terry


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## sandesurf (Aug 20, 2008)

Wow, a debate! LOL

I admit, I can see the benefit of points. It's just that we've seen the value and the availability decline over the past 10 years. I totally agree, I don't want to always stay in timeshares, and love a good resort, but those too can be rented in economical ways. 

What I don't agree with is that there are "other" benefits that we lost out on by buying resale. Keeping in mind that we bought our first one through the developer. We are able to leave both Marriotts and the other few of our resales to our children. 

Something just came to mind though...Can you leave a point account to an heir? I don't think so. Sure, they can accumulate their own, by turning in the timeshare for points after they become the owners (if you bought from developer) but the left over points don't go with them. At least this is what I've understood. Anyone want to enlighten me?


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## kjd (Aug 20, 2008)

Let me make this simple for all of the bean counters to understand.  I took four vacations in the last year.  Some domestic and some overseas.  Had I paid for lodging I would have paid a total of $12,193 for 41 nights.  That's about $291 per night.  Not an unreasonable rate considering overseas travel and staying in Marriotts.

I used points and a couple of trades to cover the 41 nights so my MF plus II costs were about $2,200.  That's a difference of about $10,000 that I did not pay.  

The difference between direct purchase price and the resale price of the traded units is about $19,600.  Previous and planned travel has exceeded that difference and I still own the units and I still am able to use points.

The lost opportunity cost is meaningless because I could have easily lost money over the last eight years.  In 2000 the NASDAQ was 5,000.  It's below 2,500 today.  Anyway, it's not about money.


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## Dave M (Aug 20, 2008)

sandesurf said:


> Can you leave a point account to an heir?


Only if the heir is your "legal spouse or partner". The Marriott Rewards T&C prohibit other transfers at death. However, there have been some anecdotal reports at FlyerTalk.com that Marriott might allow transfers to other heirs if the specific bequest is included in the will or trust document of the deceased. 

Best advice is to use your points - early and often. Not using them risks constant devaluation and the loss of any remaining points at death.


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## cwtkm3 (Aug 20, 2008)

*Travel Packages*

As we're based in the UK we fully appreciate the points benefits. We didn't know about TUG and bought direct but at least two of the resorts were at the pre-construction stage.

So far we've had two travel packages which has taken us to Australia (sufficient points for 2 return flights, 1 leg in biz class on Qantas so a fab lie flat massaging bed!) and two Sydney Harbour Marriott hotel rooms for 7 nights. (5 of us so paid for kids flights.)

Have just booked two biz class seats from Heathrow to LAX for hubbie and me and paid for the kids to fly in economy. The cost of the biz class seats alone is over $10,000!

Still have the hotel portions to use but am thinking of squashing four of us into one hotel room next Easter as 16 yr old not coming. Have booked Portugal but may swap it for a UK based hotel nearer the time.

That still leaves one unused cert which Marriott will allow us to renew once it's close to expiry.

So I'm very pro points as can see the long term benefits. If we'd saved the money by buying re-sale it would be long spent on something like a car and personally I'd rather have expensive holidays!


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## Valleykat (Aug 20, 2008)

I am sorry if anyone was offended by my post.  In our case, it was ignorance, or lack of knowledge, that led us to buy developer rather than resale.  I shouldn't have implied that I spoke for others.  We are relatively new owners and for us the points have not benefited us yet.  They may in time.  One problem we have had is that we have wanted to use Marriott hotels for one or two night stays and you really get ripped off using points that way.  You really need to stay a full week for the points value to be at all comparable to what you traded them for, at least in our experience.


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## Lawlar (Aug 20, 2008)

*I love Beans*



kjd said:


> Let me make this simple for all of the bean counters to understand.  I took four vacations in the last year.  Some domestic and some overseas.  Had I paid for lodging I would have paid a total of $12,193 for 41 nights.  That's about $291 per night.  Not an unreasonable rate considering overseas travel and staying in Marriotts.
> 
> I used points and a couple of trades to cover the 41 nights so my MF plus II costs were about $2,200.  That's a difference of about $10,000 that I did not pay.
> 
> ...



I love a good debate.

I have over 700,000 points.  But I’ve spent a lot of money over the years with Marriott and on my Visa card to get there.  Dave M busted my bubble when he explained to me, accurately, that those 700,000 points have little cash value.

Now if I exchange my one week in Maui (probably rental value of $3,500) I will get 135,000 points.  A week at one of Marriott’s nicest hotels costs 150,000 points.  When you consider my $657 a month TS payment, my $1,700 maintenance fee (going up to $2,000 next year), no way are my payments going to result in any kind of savings if I exchange them for points that are the equivalent to one week in a hotel room.  No one makes money acumalating points.  I would be interested in how much it really cost you for those points you spent for your vacation.

Yeah, I’m a bean counter.  That is how we paid off our mortgage and funded our retirement.  Most successful people focus on saving not spending.

For you free market capitalists out there, I would suggest that the best way to determine the true value of a TS is to look at the market.  The true market resale value for a TS is dramatically less than the price Marriott sells their units for.  The actual market rental value for many TSs is less than the yearly maintenance fee [Thank goodness – I’m renting one week at Timber Lodge in December for $299 – one bedroom / full kitchen / fireplace – The maintenance fee for owners is $700.]

The only reason Marriott can get thier outrageous prices is because of their use of their high-pressure, less than honest, sales force

Yes, you could have invested in the Nasdaq at 5,000 and feel really bad about it today (most bean counters knew better than to invest at the top).  But frankly, after buying a TS from Marriott, I feel just like someone who invested in the Nasdaq at 5,000 when I consider how big a loss I would take if I sold my TS (if I could find a buyer, and so far no one listing a Lahaina Villa unit on RedWeek has been able to find a buyer, even at reduced prices).


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## LisaRex (Aug 20, 2008)

I'm a Westin owner and am *thinking* about buying a Marriott TS closer to home.  I have two major gripes with the Starwood system and wanted to know if Marriott was similar: 

1) Starwood does not adjust the conversion ratio to keep up with the award chart inflation.  2 years ago, the 80k hotel points that my 2 bdrm villa converts to used to buy a week anywhere in the world.  That same 80k StarPoints will only buy 2-3 days at the highest category hotels today.  So as time goes by, and MFs increase, people who want to convert to hotel points get less value. 

_Does Marriott adjust the conversion ratio to keep up with inflation?_

2) I bought an OF villa in Hawaii for a steep (resale) purchase price.  However, my MFs and StarOptions value (internal trading currency) are identical to every other unit, no matter if they're OV or IV.  So the extra money I paid for the OF unit goes out the window whenver I go anywhere but my home resort.  If I trade anywhere else, I lose my great view.  So just about anything I trade to is a "step down" for me. 

_Does Marriott give OF/OV owners any bonus when trading, such as additional MRs or the right to preserve the view when they trade to other Marriott properties? _

If the answer to both is "no" then that gives me added incentive to buy resale vs. from the developer.  I live in Ohio the rest of the year (have pity on me!), so when i go on vacation I want the best view available.  And the way the systems are set up penalizes OF owners when they trade.  If Starwood/Marriott won't give any additional incentives for folks giving up an OF villa, I'd rather book my week and rent it out or direct exchange it vs. trying to trade it.  And, quite frankly, either is a hassle.


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## JimC (Aug 20, 2008)

People buy direct for different reasons.  I can come up with 7 easily:

1.  Brand new resort just open up for sale
2.  High demand fixed week
3.  Special deals, such as the 50/50 program
4.  MRPs given at closing
5.  MRP trade option
6.  Convenience
7.  Financing

Each purchaser must evaluate the offer according to their own needs.  Items 1 - 4 could be persuasive for me; while 5 - 7 are not.  Others may very well reach a different conclusion.


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## Lawlar (Aug 20, 2008)

*No bonus for view*



LisaRex said:


> _Does Marriott give OF/OV owners any bonus when trading, such as additional MRs or the right to preserve the view when they trade to other Marriott properties? _



Nope.  We haven't been offered any special preference when we made our trade.  [Lockoff at Maui only got us a lockoff at Timberlode - no special view or upgrade]  Maybe if we were more experienced and knowlegeable at exchaning we could have gotten a better deal - Other TUGGERS are much more Knowledgeable about that.

If we traded our oceanfront unit we would suffer a major trade down.


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## potchak (Aug 20, 2008)

We bought our first 2/3 timeshares (2 EOYs and 1 EY)directly from Marriott and 1 resale, and I am a bean counter too. Although, we somewhat regret purchasing our Waiohai EOY direct, we do not regret the Timberlodge EOY or the MMC that we bought direct. We got 300K points with which we booked a cruise on ($2000 value, not the best use of points, but it let us be able to book it, we wouldn't have otherwise.) But, we have every intention of using our points for a cat 6 package, 250K pts, to get 1st class airfare and possibly a week in a cat 6 hotel in Hawaii. The 1st class airfare alone is worth $5K for the two of us, and the cat 6 package is worth another $2-3K depending on the hotel. 1 package will make it worth it to us. And we would be travelling to places that would take us years to save up enough money to go visit, like Europe, Hawaii, etc. 

Buying direct seems worth it to us.


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## thinze3 (Aug 20, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> I'm a Westin owner and am *thinking* about buying a Marriott TS closer to home.  I have two major gripes with the Starwood system and wanted to know if Marriott was similar:
> 
> 1) Starwood does not adjust the conversion ratio to keep up with the award chart inflation.  2 years ago, the 80k hotel points that my 2 bdrm villa converts to used to buy a week anywhere in the world.  That same 80k StarPoints will only buy 2-3 days at the highest category hotels today.  So as time goes by, and MFs increase, people who want to convert to hotel points get less value.
> 
> ...





I hope this helps.

Terry


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## gmarine (Aug 20, 2008)

Unless your getting a huge amount of incentive points for a developer purchase it makes no sense financially to purchase from the developer strictly based on trading for points. You can purchase 100,000 points per year per couple for $1250 which isnt much more than most resorts maintenance fees. And you dont have an initial layout or 10K or so more than resale.

And if you have to finance the developer purchase it makes it even less attractive. Stick with a resale unless there is that huge amount of incentive points or you absolutely have to have a certain fixed/holiday week which you cant find resale.


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## Beverley (Aug 20, 2008)

kjd said:


> We hve bought three directly from Marriott and one resale.  We bought from Marriott knowing there was a resale market with lower prices.  The use of points was the major reason for us purchasing from Marriott.  It's not a case of "only the points" beiing the difference in value.  That's a rather simplistic view IMHO but it is probably true for a family who wants to vacation in one place often and maybe trade into another TS somewhere else.
> 
> The points have allowed us to save thousands on overseas vacations as well as given us free access to Marriott hotels everywhere.  We have already recovered the difference in value and still have the option to use points in the future.  If you look at where Marriott timeshares are located (and all timeshares in general) the locations are quite limited.  Usually in resort areas, but not many in the major cities of the US and Europe.
> 
> Younger owners must realize that you will reach an age when you may want to travel without children and explore other parts of the world.  Your travel requirements will change.  MRP will save you a lot of money and make that kind of travel possible.  That's why all of the blustering about buying resale as the only true way to own a TS is bad advice.



Ditto!   

We own six Marriott weeks, some WorldMark, and one Hilton affiliate resort.  The WorldMark and Hilton affiliate resort we bought resale w/o the developer being involved and, yes, saved a bunch of $$$.  The Marriott weeks were all developer weeks and all but two were preconstruction.  So that means that we were owners at bran new resorts and using them long before resales were available.  

We bought 2 Marriott weeks from Marriott as resales so yes they are in the point system and they cost more than buying from a private sale.  Our main reasons for doing this besides the points is that there were no resales privately for what we wanted when we wanted to buy it AND quite honestly I do not want to be bothered negotiating a terrific deal only to have Marriott swoop in and buy it our from under me   so I just skipped that whole process.

We are not sorry for any of the purchases except that if we had to do it over again the only change we would make is to have bought more platinum units.  We have amortized the expense of our purchases including maintenance fees already with two month long trips to Europe and one month long trip to Hawaii with numerous other smaller trips wherein we got free hotels and free airline for ourselves and our daughters and even some of their friends.  I realize all the "bean" counters would probably contest this but to each his own.

We love our points and the extra places we can go as a result and also being able to secure a place while awaiting a trade request so that we can secure flights etc. 

You asked why.. those were most of our reasons.


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## LisaRex (Aug 20, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> I hope this helps.
> 
> Terry



It does.  Thanks to you and Lawlar for your feedback.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 20, 2008)

kjd said:


> I used points and a couple of trades to cover the 41 nights so my MF plus II costs were about $2,200.  That's a difference of about $10,000 that I did not pay.



Can you explain how this only cost you $2200?

Looking at the numbers. 41 nights would require ~5 TS weeks.
Two as exchanges $200
Three as exchange for points. If you used a travel package, which it sounds like you did then you would need ~250000 MR points for each week. That would equate to trading in 6 timeshare weeks for points.
So you have 8 TS weeks of MF+T, ~$750 for each week, $6000 total. 
$624 to trade all those 6 weeks in for points.

That comes out closer to $7000 for those 41 nights. Still a deal, but far beyond your number. Now perhaps you didn't get three travel packages and just did some hotel only rewards. That would lower the number of points needed and reduce my cost somewhat. Perhaps some of those points were earned from other hotel stays and a MR Visa. When you bring those in to the equation it gets harder to determine your true cost.


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## kjd (Aug 21, 2008)

The $2,200 cost figure I used was derived in this manner.  The 41 days of vacation was obtained with an MGC one bedroom lockoff traded for a two bedroom Timber Lodge.  The other week was an MGC two bedroom lockoff as an owner.  The MF for both units is about $2,000.  The remaining $200 is an approximation of II charges.  The remaining 27 days were Marriott hotel rooms purchased with MRPs from an accumulation of approximately 600,000 points.  There was no air fare involved.  No points were purchased.

The points were accumulated through ts purchase incentives, weekend pleasure trips and the Visa Premier card.  The hotels ranged from cat 2 to cat 6.  My normal charge to Visa Premier averages about $4,000 per month, none of it from business use.  Presently, I have about 200,000 MRPs.  To increase my point level in the future I will have to turn in one or two of my ts weeks for points and probably purchase some additional points as well.  This no doubt will raise my cost for the same number of vacation days but it will still be worth it when you consider the increasing cost of travel..


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## Latravel (Aug 21, 2008)

I am always surprised when people seem upset that Marriott would require more points for air/hotel packages than in the past.  The cost of everything has gone up so why would hotel rooms be different?  I don't believe this is some sort of conspiracy by Marriott to cheat owners, it's just a reality of our current economy.  In fact, when it takes more points for a certain category of hotel, all I think is i'm glad i'm just paying with points instead of dollars! 

I agree with others that the initial amount of incentive points we received from Marriott helped us decide to purchase direct. The large amount we received equalled and surpassed the cost difference between direct vs resale.  How else could we justify the cost difference?


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## Beverley (Aug 21, 2008)

kjd said:


> The $2,200 cost figure I used was derived in this manner.  The 41 days of vacation was obtained with an MGC one bedroom lockoff traded for a two bedroom Timber Lodge.  The other week was an MGC two bedroom lockoff as an owner.  The MF for both units is about $2,000.  The remaining $200 is an approximation of II charges.  The remaining 27 days were Marriott hotel rooms purchased with MRPs from an accumulation of approximately 600,000 points.  There was no air fare involved.  No points were purchased.
> 
> The points were accumulated through ts purchase incentives, weekend pleasure trips and the Visa Premier card.  The hotels ranged from cat 2 to cat 6.  My normal charge to Visa Premier averages about $4,000 per month, none of it from business use.  Presently, I have about 200,000 MRPs.  To increase my point level in the future I will have to turn in one or two of my ts weeks for points and probably purchase some additional points as well.  This no doubt will raise my cost for the same number of vacation days but it will still be worth it when you consider the increasing cost of travel..



GREAT WORK!  

Beverley


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## Lawlar (Aug 21, 2008)

*I Prefer Cash*

Dear KJD:  We will always disagree on this topic.  But that’s ok.  We’ll agree to disagree and enjoy the debate. 

MR reminds me a lot of Blue Chip Stamps (also Green Stamps).  When I was a kid my parents paid me 25 cents for each redemption book I filled by pasting their stamps on the pages.  I made out big time on that deal.  When I was older I used to buy gas and groceries wherever I could find advertisements promoting 3X, or even 10X, blue chip stamps (i.e. 3 or 10 stamps for every dollar as opposed to one).  Even Warren Buffett got caught up with the frenzy when he bought Blue Chip Stamps as an investment.  He admits it was one of his biggest mistakes. The company went broke, and Warren Buffet’s investment went to zero, when people realized that they could get cheaper gas and groceries by forgoing the stamps and looking for the cheapest prices.

Now I can brag that my 700,000+ points with Marriott is a great accomplishment (or a couple hundred thousand with Am Exp).  And I did stay in a nice hotel in London using MR and I've used Am Ex points to pay for airfare. But the reality is that those points in no way are going to offset the horrible loss I would take if I sold my Marriott TS.  It was a stupid purchase that cannot be justified by any type of math or financial wizardry.

If, instead of staying at Marriott hotels to earn points, I had stayed at the best hotels offering the biggest deal for that period, I would have been way ahead in actual cash savings.  Fortunately, I did that many times and saved a lot more in cash than I would have earned in points.  For those that can spend $4,000 a month on credit card charges (and I used to put my business expenses on my card to get the points), the savings by looking for the best bargain instead of the most points may seem unimportant.  Maybe so.

For me, I’m looking to take our trips at the best hotels offering the lowest rates.  Now that we are in a recession that will be easy.  I’m even considering those cards that give cash back, instead of points.  The nice thing about cash is that it can earn interest instead of being devalued at Marriott’s whim.

By the way, if anyone thinks that buying a TS for 700,000 points is a great opportunity, I'll sell you my TS for the same price I paid Marriott and I'll give you my 700,000 points.  I'll even give you my Am Exp points.  I'll even give you a free week's stay at a category 7 hotel, on me.  Trust me, no one will take that deal because they would immediately lose at least $20,000 and have to pay $2,000 a year MF.  But if anyone thinks that this deal would be like winning the lotto - just give me a call!  [I know, some killjoy is going to mention that the points aren't transferable.  But I make my point nonetheless.]


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## pwrshift (Aug 21, 2008)

*He asked if I had won the lottery!*

This 'points debate' is never ending. I'll bet, over the years on TUG, there have been more threads on MR points than any other subject and they are always stimulating. Those who bought resale defend their position with vigour and, on TUG at least, outnumber those who bought direct. Newbies get very confused over this. Actually, I'm glad I bought 2 Marriott weeks direct years ago, before finding out about TUG -- otherwise I might have bought resale due to the convincing arguments presented here.

I can remember my first Marriott purchase (Manor Club had just opened) which came with what they called a 'world trip for two' which I promptly discounted as a publicity gimmick. I just wanted the timeshare at this very classy place that was driving distance from home. To prove to me that this was a good deal, my Marriott sales rep asked me where I wanted to go 'free' and booked everything for us -- the air and the hotel. Wow - that trip would have cost me half what the timeshare cost and opened my eyes to the value of Marriott Rewards. 

A good sales rep makes a huge difference. When I bought my 2nd Marriott (this time in Fort Lauderdale as pre-construction) it also came with a pile of points ... but that sales rep wouldn't help me plan a 'world trip for two' so I went back to the MMC rep who graciously did it all again for me. This time, the 'value' of that trip was more than half the purchase price of the Lauderdale TS. I became a believer, based on the results of this benefit. 

Like others here, starting out in business and as a young parent, nothing was ever handed to us on a silver platter. In the early days I had two jobs just to make ends meet. Holidays, if we took them, were at cheap nearby motels as even economy flight prices were out of reach to us financially. Times changed and our finances improved...but you never forget the tough times.

Had I bought resale and not experienced the MR program, I would never have considered 'buying' $6,000 business class tickets to Europe. Although a nice dream, I would never have paid $4,200 to stay 7-nights in a top level Marriott right on the Champs-Élysées ...and even more money for the previous week at London's County Hall. These were dream trips - almost unreal considering the vacatons of my past. And best of all, they seemed 'free'.

On my first flight to Europe in business class I met a former boss getting on the same plane - only he was in economy. He couldn't believe I could afford to fly business class or stay in those top hotels - and asked if I won the lottery. I think it spoiled his whole trip. So, we sat in a London pub one afternoon and I showed him how I did it with Marriott Rewards and timesharing. I referred him to my sales rep and he bought two weeks at Manor Club - netting me 80,000 friendshare points! I met him at an industry show a couple of years later and he and his wife had taken business class flights to Tokyo and Sydney with hotels all on MR points...and I have no idea what that would have cost paying cash. In all probability, most people would not pay those prices -- so it's reward time for all the work you put in to get where you are in life. And when you're in business class go say hello to the resale buyers back in economy...you'll get there in same time, but it's different.

So I don't think anyone is right or wrong in the MR point debates - there are advantages both ways. For young families TS is a great vacation and buying resale is very very attractive when cash is tight - but over time families change, the parents become empty nesters and it's now their time to enjoy the fruits of their labour.

Hotel prices are higher this year by about 15%, but they were higher in 2007 by about 20% over the previous year. Ouch. MR points, although there have been a few category changes (both ways) they have not been adjusted to match rack rate increases. At least for now.


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## Latravel (Aug 21, 2008)

Very well written.  You might not see the resale purchasers anywhere on the plane because they might not take those type of vacations at all.  If I had to actually pay for those trips, I would hesitate to take them because of the cost.


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## Steve A (Aug 21, 2008)

I love MR points: Park Lane, Grovesnor Square, Champs-Élysées Marriott, Marriott Marquis, Amsterdam Marriott. Plus I sent my son and one of his friends to Amsterdam and London on MR points for his college graduation. In the summer of 2009 we will be at the Shelbourne in Dublin and the Grovesnor House in London for two weeks. Plus all the airfares!!!! And I get free one-night stays, used in Chicago, for having the black Marriott card, AND I get to go to my timeshares in HHI, Aruba, and Las Vegas. How cool is that?

Let me tell you how cool this is--my wife is impressed by it all. Do you know how hard it is to impress a woman you have been married to for 33 years?


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## Latravel (Aug 21, 2008)

To be honest, it's my husband that knows the in's and out's of point systems and he always impresses me.  When you know how to use/play the system, it works really well.


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## tombo (Aug 21, 2008)

Latravel said:


> Very well written.  You might not see the resale purchasers anywhere on the plane because they might not take those type of vacations at all.  If I had to actually pay for those trips, I would hesitate to take them because of the cost.



You paid for those points, and the price wasn't cheap. Marriott doesn't give away points. You paid a lot more to buy retail over resale to get those points. You trade your week in for points, but you paid MF's on that week, so once again not free.

Resale buyers don't take those kind of trips? Shocking as it may seem, resale buyers fly too. I promise we go overseas and it is not always by stowing away in the luggage.. In fact through the course of this year I owned 3 Hawaii weeks (sold them all because of high air fares and dropping demand for Hawaii), 1 Aruba week, and 1 St Maarten week. I am not a long distance swimmer and my bass boat won't make the trip, so I have to fly (sorry to lower the status of air flyers to include resale buyers). The fact that we are frugal simply means that we can go on more trips for less money. Sam Walton was one of the richest men in the world, and he continued to drive his decades old pickup truck until he died. He was asked why he didn't buy a new truck, he said why buy a new one when this one still works. Why buy retail knowing resale is available for 50% or more off of retail pricing?

P.S.  Some of us cheap resale buyers actually pay to be members of TUG. I guess we can afford to join with our savings from not buying retail.


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## pwrshift (Aug 21, 2008)

Tombo ... I agree with you that there's no free lunch. MR points aren't free ... but there are good and bad ways to spend them. I am amazed how many people will waste their points on a 'stay anytime' night in some hotel. Even experienced Marriott people don't fully understand the 'air+hotel' packages. 

But, it's simply amazing what you can get for cashing in enough points for two cat7 pkgs plus air FF miles which nets you 2 weeks in top European hotels and two business class tickets for 540,000 pts, and still have FF miles left over. It's not the cost of the points that matters - it's how you use them. And if you know your stuff, trips like that have a value of many thousands of dollars.

The new Grande Lakes Orlando TS comes with over a million points for some $35,000 to cover everything for the first 7 years. I could easily plan trips with that many points that would cost $35,000 to buy. A free timeshare? No. But the trips sure seem free and make you feel king of the hill with memories that will last a lifetime. Just for fun, tombo, use expedia and marriott sites and pretend to spend 1 million MR points and see what the comparative cost value would be. 

Brian




tombo said:


> You paid for those points, and the price wasn't cheap. Marriott doesn't give away points. You paid a lot more to buy retail over resale to get those points. You trade your week in for points, but you paid MF's on that week, so once again not free.


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## tombo (Aug 21, 2008)

Powershift, thanks for a rational reasonable explanation. Boy that is refreshing. 

1 million points seems like a lot, but so does $35,000 for any orlando resort. I don't like Disney (I know that is an unpopular statement) and hope to never go there again in my life. I like thrill rides and Six Flags or Busch Gardens are more to my liking. Orlando has sooo many timeshares that you can trade in there to a nice resort really easily. What other Marriott resort's retail prices and points offerings are you familiar with? I like beach or mountains.


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## pwrshift (Aug 21, 2008)

sounds like you should buy Manor Club direct -- if they still have the deal to buy resale from Marriott for $20,000 or so including up front points bonus AND every year trading for 110,000 pts.  Close to Busch gardens and you'd save by not having to fly.  $845 MF.  Beaches cost more - expect over $1200 a week MF which gets to the borderline area of points exchanging based on $0.0125 per MR point to buy.  Hawaii is never a good deal for points play...MF way too high as is the cost of getting there.  You can buy BeachPlace for about $15,000 resale - but no points...I own 2 weeks there and love the location and the HOA finally woke up and is redecorating it right now.  You don't even need a car there...but it's a very active (not relaxing) location of bars, beaches, restaurants, fishing, cruising, shopping, etc. -- with a Ritz right next door.

The Orlando Grande Lakes TS is a points play -- a million points that could equal your puchase price in cost 'value' travel pkgs and you don't get to use it for 7 years to get those points.  And when you do use it, the 2 bdrm suite locks off into two full 1 bdrm suites each with a kitchen!  Your neighbours are a JW hotel and a Ritz Carlton and a great golf course - nice!  I'm not wild about Orlando either but if I didn't already have 6 Marriott weeks and already swimming in points I would have bought the first day it was offered.  The economy is soft right now ... so Marriott is giving more points (in this case at least) for a 'reasonable' amount of money -- bear in mind the $35,000 I mentioned is the purchase price and 7 years of MF.

Brian


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## tombo (Aug 21, 2008)

Not interested in Hawaii. I sold all 3 of my weeks this year due to high air fares. You can rent or exchange into Hawaii easy now. I still own a St Maarten and an Aruba week, both of which will be sold in the next year or so if air fares don't drop. I have already purchased air fare for Aruba 2009, and rented out St Maarten for 2009, so they are still in my inventory.

I am going to watch some Manor Club resales and see what they are selling for (I know I might not ever own for those prices but it is my point of reference). Then I can compare retail prices w/ points vs. resale prices without points.

The Orlando Grand Lakes is I assume under construction. The $35,000 is for Platinum? Also are you saying that you pay $35,000 and you owe 7 years of MF's, or does the $35000 include 7 years MF's since you can't stay there for 7 years? I also need to research what 1 million points will translate into travel wise. I assume with air fares like they are that 1 million points ain't what it used to be.


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## GregT (Aug 22, 2008)

Sorry for my late arrival to the discussion...

Another reason to buy direct from the developer is if there is something specific about your unit that you want, ie a specific week or unit size.  

We were planning on buying a MOC 2BR on resale, and had done extensive research on pricing.  However, we became convinced that the value of a 3BR, at a specific week every year, "justified" the additional purchase price from the developer, versus a 2BR resale.

These intangible values (for an additional approx $50K!!!) were as follows:

1) We're relatively young (I'm 41)
2) Our children are 7,6,3 and will benefit from/tolerate 10-20 years of vacations with us, before they lose interest in us
3) A specific week (Week 24) allows us to go in June (not the best weather in San Diego) right after school is out
4) A 3BR allows us to bring friends/family
5) We like full kitchens (and cool pools)

This combination led us to a very expensive purchase that we have never regretted, because 1-5 above is not assured with a resale purchase.  I can't justify it from a financial analysis perspective (and I'm a CPA), and I don't try to.  I derive great satisfaction from what it means for our family -- it's what that commercial about "priceless" was talking about.  

Interestingly, our purchase in a fixed week has spurred 2 years in a row groups of friends who are going and staying nearby -- I'm not sure if I could have achieved the same without the Week 24 anchor -- perhaps I could have, but I'm just happy about the current result.

Everyone has different motives for buying their timeshares, and for a variety of reasons, I do not dismiss buying directly from the developer.  As long as we have our other financial priorities intact and we can afford our toys (which is how I view timeshares) then I don't think we should overanalyze it.  

Good luck to all!!!


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## pwrshift (Aug 22, 2008)

tombo said:


> ...The Orlando Grand Lakes is I assume under construction. The $35,000 is for Platinum? Also are you saying that you pay $35,000 and you owe 7 years of MF's, or does the $35000 include 7 years MF's since you can't stay there for 7 years? I also need to research what 1 million points will translate into travel wise. I assume with air fares like they are that 1 million points ain't what it used to be.


 
Here is a post I wrote some time ago on the Grande Lakes Orlando deal.  It may have changed some since then as they sold the first 300 Founder Weeks in about a week.  But it shows you that the MF is included in the pricing for 7 years of non-use...but the place doesn't open until 2010 anyways, so you're really only missing 5 years to gather up the million points (or in this example, 2 million points).

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=561412&postcount=33

The value of points seem to be chainging daily .. especially on AA which has announced a bump on Oct1 this year.  UA seems to be staying the same, which is probably a competitive move against AA -- UA wants 80,000 FF miles for biz class to Europe but AA wants 100,000 now.  The trick is to spend em when you get enough for a great trip.

Brian


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## kjd (Aug 22, 2008)

*Wise use of points*

Here's something that I can agree with all of the bean counters out there.  Points do have a value.  Albiet, a relative one.  The best approach to using the accumulation of MR points IMHO, is to use different combinations of MRP, airline reward points, cash, ts trades, II Getaways and travel bargin sales.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Marriott travel packages are a good deal.  Especially for a luxury overseas vacation.  However, there are times when a travel package is not practical.  A MR point is generally understood to be worth between $.0125 and $.0150.  Simply said, all other considerations being equal, it becomes easy to determine whether you should use points or some other vehicle when making any vacation reservation.  

For example, in many business cities in the US it is not uncommon for a Marriott hotel to offer a special weekend rate that is much lower than the weekday rate.  A person can then make two reservations, one to cover the weekdays with MRP and paying cash on the weekend.  When you pay cash with a Premier VISA  card you also accrue MR points.  

Personally, I would rather stay in a lesser Marriott that cost the standard MRP reward rather than pay for an anytime hotel stay.  I don't think that MRPs for cruises are a very good deal either.  At least not here in Florida.

There are some instances where you may be better off using the airline points or paying cash during air fare sales.  Points afterall are just another form of currency.  They should be treated as such when making vacation decisions.


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## sdtugger (Aug 22, 2008)

*Airfare Availability is Changing*

I've been playing the points/miles game for nearly 20 years.  We've traveled the world on great vacations that we wouldn't have taken without miles/points.  But, I'm finding that the current environment for airfare using points/miles is the worst I've seen in 20 years.  You can still find seats at times, but it is very difficult to find seats during the holiday periods when schools are out and I am finding that I often have to pay double the miles to get tickets when I need to go.  That's the one fear that has kept me from accumulating even more points/miles.


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## pwrshift (Aug 22, 2008)

I also like the hotel sampler awards...use the package to get you there and take a week in a top hotel...then take a week in 3 different hotels in Europe before going home (150,000 MR pts).

http://www.marriott.com/rewards/usepoints/morepack.mi

Don't know where you got the 'value' of a MR point as I use the actual purchase price from Marriott of $0.0125 per point as the start point on which to evaluate a hotel stay vs pts.  

https://buy.points.com/marriott/init.do;jsessionid=BBE0037E17952F60537BE54A0272A63F?method=buy




kjd said:


> ... A MR point is generally understood to be worth between $1.25 and $1.50. Simply said, all other considerations being equal, it becomes easy to determine whether you should use points or some other vehicle when making any vacation reservation.
> 
> .


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## kjd (Aug 22, 2008)

*pwrshift*

You are correct, my error.  I meant to state an MRP is worth $.0125-$.0150.  I will edit my previous post so there is no confusion.  Thanks.


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## tombo (Aug 22, 2008)

For us non-points TUGGERS, how do marriott points excahnge for FF miles for the different airlines? Is it one Marriott point per one FF Delta mile, or ten Marriott points per Delta FF miles? Does it vary on exchange value for different airlines? Is there any preferential treatment for Marriott points owners or do you have to exchange marriott points for FF miles and then keep looking and hoping to find a flight using FF miles like the rest of us are doing right now? I keep hearing how great the points are but I have no idea what a Marriott point translates into when using them for airline tickets.


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## Dave M (Aug 22, 2008)

With the best deal - the air/hotel travel packages - each additional FF mile costs one Marriott Rewards point. Thus, it's one-for-one. It's much more costly (in terms of points) to request only FF miles.


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## seema (Aug 22, 2008)

Dave M said:


> With the best deal - the air/hotel travel packages - each additional FF mile costs one Marriott Rewards point. Thus, it's one-for-one. It's much more costly (in terms of points) to request only FF miles.



Can you give a numerical example # MRP for frequent flyer miles and for the air/hotel travel package?


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## Dave M (Aug 22, 2008)

Here is the link to the air/hotel package charts (bottom of the page). Note that for the packages for most major U.S. airlines, the basic cost (e.g., for category 7 hotels) is 200,000 points, including 50,000 FF miles. Adding FF miles (to 70k, 100k and 120k FF miles) costs one point for each additional FF mile.


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## seema (Aug 23, 2008)

If one wanted to transfer the Marriott Reward Points to an airline FF program (only) - ie no hotel/air package - what would be the conversion rate for such a transfer?


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## thinze3 (Aug 23, 2008)

It varies. Here's a sample.

10,000 miles cost 30,000 MR points
50,000 miles cost 125,000 MR points


Terry


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## pwrshift (Aug 23, 2008)

If my math is correct, you save 180,000 MR points by taking a Cat7 hotel + 120,000 FF mile package, over taking the components separately. That's even better than I realized...with the packages the miles are virtually free.


*AIR* - It takes 125,000 MR points for 50,000 FF miles, or 2.5 MR points for 1 FF mile. At this rate, the 120,000 FF miles in the air+hotel pkg would take 300,000 MR points if ordered separately. That alone is more than the Cat7 pkg.

*HOTEL* - It takes 150,000 MR points for a Category 7 hotel stay for 7 nights.

*TOTAL if bought separately*: 450,000 MR points.

*TOTAL if bought as an #0910 package*: 270,000 MR points.

http://www.marriott.com/rewards/moreRewardDetail.mi?marrRewardCode=0910&points=270,000&type=call

*SAVING with Air+Hotel pkg: 180,000 MR points...enough for another 7 night category 7 hotel stay - in Europe that's about $4,000.*


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## icydog (Aug 29, 2008)

JimC said:


> People buy direct for different reasons.  I can come up with 7 easily:
> 
> 1.  Brand new resort just open up for sale
> 2.  High demand fixed week
> ...



What the 50/50 program? I like 5 as well but only for the first few years of my pre-construction Lakeside Reserves in Orlando weeks.


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## luv2vacation (Aug 29, 2008)

Marilyn - I think the 50/50 program that JimC (JimC - correct me if I'm wrong) is referring to is when you purchase 2 EOY's together, one odd & one even.  This gives you the option of having 2 home resorts (alternating each year) and still qualifies for full year purchase incentives.  In addition, instead of paying the usual 60% for an EOY, you instead pay 50% for each.  The biggest drawback is that it doesn't include ALL resorts that are being sold EOY and the list of available resorts sometimes changes.  A salesperson could give you a list of what resorts are participating in the program right now.


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## Lawlar (Aug 29, 2008)

*Important Info*

This thread got way off track.  But that's ok because this is good info.

I would suggest that some of this info on how to best use Marriott Points be placed on a permanent thread where it can be easily accessed.  Or is that already the case and I just don't know where to look (very likely)?


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## JimC (Aug 29, 2008)

luv2vacation said:


> Marilyn - I think the 50/50 program that JimC (JimC - correct me if I'm wrong) is referring to is when you purchase 2 EOY's together, one odd & one even.  This gives you the option of having 2 home resorts (alternating each year) and still qualifies for full year purchase incentives.  In addition, instead of paying the usual 60% for an EOY, you instead pay 50% for each.  The biggest drawback is that it doesn't include ALL resorts that are being sold EOY and the list of available resorts sometimes changes.  A salesperson could give you a list of what resorts are participating in the program right now.



Yes that is what I was referring to.  We bought Shadow Ridge and Canyon Villas that way because we wanted to alternate between the two without the hassle and fees of trading.  The only incremental expense is that you have two sets of closing costs.


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## Juggy (Aug 31, 2008)

*Bean Counter Program?*

I've noticed many of you claim to be bean counters. Would any of you also be experienced enough in mathematics to come up with a formula that would determine at what cost of a timeshare would it be more beneficial for points, and when it would be more beneficial to just be resale?

My guess is the formula would need several criteria to pick from such as:

- Cost of buying direct timeshare
- Interest on financing the difference in price from resale or buying direct
- Maint. fees would *not* be used since you pay these direct or resale
- # of Points you get for trading in a week

And the formula would have to make several assumptions such as:
- Costs of taking "dream" vacations which can be obtained by using points
- Costs of using hotels around the world which would be obtained by points
- Length of time you intend to use this timeshare

I think that's a fairly simple formula that could easily determine which would be more beneficial, you could have the user select what they would use their points for and have dollar values for the packages chosen to help the person make their evaluation more personalized. Simple dropdown selections would make this a breeze to navigate through.

I'm surprised this does not currently exist given how easy the formula is and how many brilliant minds we have here at TUGGS. If anyone does decide to create it, can I get some credit on the webpage =)

My stab in the dark at the beginning formula would be:
((price difference of buying direct) + (interest paid on diff of buying direct)) - ((price of vacation used booking vacation or hotel w/points) x (how many years you intend to keep the timeshare))

The years portion would have to have a modifier based on #points earned, how often they turned in points, etc.. Anyway, it's a bit more complicated but a good math major can easily tackle this.

Juggy


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## KathyPet (Sep 1, 2008)

Yes Buying from the developer can pay off.  
bought MMC platinum in July 1994 for $14750.00  Got the world trip incentive.  Can't remember how many points that equaled to but it was a boatload.  Get 110,000 points for trading which we have done every other year for the 14 years so that equals 770,000 points which is equal to three of the marriott category 7  night travel packages plus airlines miles.
Called Marriott resales a few months back just to check out the current status of resales for MMC.  They will accept my week for immediate listing (no waiting list to sell at this time) and what will I net once they find me a buyer?   $14,500!  So I am down $250.00 from my original purchase price plus whatever I may have lost over time by not keeping my money in the bank.  I am not selling this little jewel anytime soon but just wanted to put this out there for those who say you will never recover costs if you buy from the developer.


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## Lawlar (Sep 1, 2008)

*How Many Years Before I have A Profit?*



KathyPet said:


> Yes Buying from the developer can pay off.



How many years do you think it will take before we are at a profit on our direct purchase from Marriott?  Here are the figures to help you calculate my profitable transaction:

$58,000 for 1 week in Maui.
$1,700 a year MF (which I suspect will go up 10% a year).
12.7% interest on $50,000 loan. [$6,350 a year interest.]
135,000 reward points.
50,000 reward points a year on the loan (we forfeited this "benefit" because we made some prepayments).

VS. [If we didn't buy.]

5% interest on "investment."  [$2,900 a year.]
$1,700 a year MF savings.
Less: Aprx. $2,100 we use to pay for a hotel room in Maui (usually less, but I'll pretend we paid this much in defferenct to those who love Marriott).

I suspect that I won't live long enough to see this transaction turn profitable.  Maybe my grandkid will reap a profit, if he can afford the MFs.


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## GaryDouglas (Sep 1, 2008)

I've read from a bunch of people with money making experiences from their TS purchase/s and a bunch more that haven't. We've bought a few since 2004 and sold a couple, one we made a few thousand on and the other close to break even (with other tangibles that I won't go into). Others have stated many times and far better than I what the optimum situation is to buy developer from Marriott. That requires being in the right place at the right time and buy the right unit, location and time... a small window that doesn't happen very often, but is does happen.


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## gmarine (Sep 1, 2008)

Lawlar said:


> How many years do you think it will take before we are at a profit on our direct purchase from Marriott?  Here are the figures to help you calculate my profitable transaction:
> 
> $58,000 for 1 week in Maui.
> $1,700 a year MF (which I suspect will go up 10% a year).
> ...



Your biggest mistake wasnt that you bought from Marriott. It's that you financed it with Marriott. I'm never a fan of buying direct from Marriott but it can work out for some people as long as you dont finance the purchase.

You should look for other options instead of paying 12% on the loan. A good option is a home equity line of credit. Current rates for borrowers with very good credit is around 4.5%.


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## Lawlar (Sep 1, 2008)

*Financing Purchase*



gmarine said:


> You should look for other options instead of paying 12% on the loan. A good option is a home equity line of credit. Current rates for borrowers with very good credit is around 4.5%.



I agree with you that financing the purchase of a Marriott TS with their 12.7% loan is unwise.  We did it originally with the idea that we would get some extra reward points and then pay off the loan.  The sales rep didn't mention the fact that we would lose the points if we made prepayments.  We made a few prepayments and then received notice that we no longer qualified for any points (even though there was still a hefty balance on the loan).

Fortunately, this part of the story ends well.  We decided to take some profits from Chevron stock we own and pay off the TS loan (at least some good has come from high gas prices.  A big thank you to all of you who drive SUVs.).  

Still, many people who are "sold" into buying a TS directly from Marriott have no option but to pay the high interest rate.  Which tells you something about who Marriott is sometimes selling to (people who can't afford to pay for the TS but get caught up in the sales pitch).


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## MOXJO7282 (Sep 2, 2008)

Hi Lawlar,
              I've heard you voice your frustration before about the mistake you made buying Marriott and you always seemed to imply buying from Marriott was such a bad move, when the fact is you really contributed to it being a bad deal for you. With all due respect, knowing all the details now, you really made a bad choice in the first place financing at 12% and could be getting much more value out of your usage. And your numbers are faulty IMHO.

First off your 5% return number is unrealistic. That number in reality is a -5% at best in this economy, unless you had all your money in bonds. If it was any type of investment money other than bonds that you had earmarked, then that probably would be a negative number right now. I know all my portfolios are down, one only 3% but another 9%. Historically maybe it will return you money, but in the meantime no. As your return would improve so would your ownership ROI, so your numbers doesn't take everything into account. Financing a TS at 12.7% is crazy to begin with so that is all on you. Also you lowball the rent a week 4 2BDRM would cost you.

Instead of the pitcure you paint, to maximize value and greatly improve ROI I would've 
1. Split unit and rent studio for I would suspect $1500-$1700. Use the 1BDRM section valued at $24-$2600   
or 
2. Split unit and do 1BDRM and studio back to back for 2 weeks in Maui fro price of 1, saving $1800-$2000. 

Here is what the ROI would look like for me. I'll even include the 5% for argument sake

$58,000 for 1 week in Maui.
$1,700 a year MF 
5% interest on $58,000  [$2900 a year interest.]
135,000 reward points.
75,000 reward points from using 5x Marriott Visa (Mar may have let you use for entire purchase, but atleast a  portion) 
points value $3000-$4000
Usage Value - spend $0 to -$200 for week in 1BDRM and renting studio

So for a 1 BDRM you paying about $2800-$3000 for the week in the first year, and you own an OF condo on Maui. Every year of usage that $3000 will go down, and you will still own  a super OF condo on Maui. At some point maybe 10-15years you will have balanced out your ROI and you will still own a an OF condo on Maui.

I know this is really estimations but my overall point is you could use your unit much better than you have and actually change your dreary picture into a sunny disposition.  But notice nowhere in my equation is a 12.7%  loan. No creative usage overcomes that overhead element if it is part of the equation.

Regards.
Joe 


.


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## KathyPet (Sep 2, 2008)

Lawlar,  Not to pile insult upon injury but I must say that buying one week at a timeshare for $58,000 is so beyond my comprehension that the thought of it takes my breath away.  However you signed the papers, had the legal # of days to rescind and did not so no one to blame there but yourself.
As far as the MF's are concerned I am sure that they were high when you purchased and you surely did not expect them to decrease.
You also indicated that your salesmen did not tell you that if you made prepayments on your loan you would loose your bonus points benefit.  It is not the responsibility of the salespeople to conduct a mini-closing for you to go over all the details of your loan agreement.  The information on the loss of the point bonus if you prepaid would have been in your closing documents which you signed.
I have read many of your posts and it is clear that you are very disgruntled with your purchase and feel you were "taken".  I am sorry about that but you cannot blame Marriott for your failure to ask questions and understand exactly what you were getting and signing up for.


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## Lawlar (Sep 2, 2008)

*You are Right*



KathyPet said:


> Lawlar,  Not to pile insult upon injury but I must say that buying one week at a timeshare for $58,000 is so beyond my comprehension that the thought of it takes my breath away.  However you signed the papers, had the legal # of days to rescind and did not so no one to blame there but yourself.



I agree.  I have posted a few times that I was temporarily insane when I did this.  No one to blame but myself (not even my wife who wouldn't let me send in the recission notice after I prepared it - If she and the grandkid want to stay in the TS on Maui I guess I owe it to them even if I feel a bit stupid for having done so.]  

Joe:  Thank you for your calculations.  I'm still trying to get those figures to make sense (I haven't had my coffee yet).  

I think the best argument in favor of buying from Marriott is for someone who is 30 (I'm 59) who has a high income and lots of assets and wants to take her family to Maui every year and actually will do so.  Then, if money isn't an issue, the family trips might make sense.  I am skeptical that the purchase can be justified by the numbers.


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## MOXJO7282 (Sep 2, 2008)

Lawlar said:


> Joe:  Thank you for your calculations.  I'm still trying to get those figures to make sense (I haven't had my coffee yet).
> 
> I think the best argument in favor of buying from Marriott is for someone who is 30 (I'm 59) who has a high income and lots of assets and wants to take her family to Maui every year and actually will do so.  Then, if money isn't an issue, the family trips might make sense.  I am skeptical that the purchase can be justified by the numbers.



Hi Lawlar,
            If you can begin to split/rent/use your week, then indeed the purchase can have a positive ROI, even with the big purchase price, your ROI is just longer. 

           If you can get a 1BDRM OF week in Maui with your costs offset or eliminated by renting your OF studio, then there is your ROI. Same is true if you can get 2 weeks out of ownership for the price of one week.

           This aspect of owning a Maui 2BDRM LO to split to use/rent is what got me into the TS world and I must admit this approach has exceeded my expectations. Back when I made my major investments, points were plentiful, I received over 500K for both of my Maui purchases and purchase price was much lower, so my method of splitting to use/rent combined with a decent initial investment scenerio gives me a strong ROI. 

           If you can start to use this approach, you too can develop an ROI, alas not quite as accelerated as someone who received better value up front, but a ROI nonetheless.

           Unfortunately if you tell me you need the 2BDRM every year, then my friend your ROI is very weak, and I would suggest holding the unit until the economy turns around, sell and become a renter. In the long run that would be the better plan, if you can't extract the value I am describing.

Regards.
Joe


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## KathyPet (Sep 2, 2008)

Lawlar,  I understand the temporary insanity defense.  I am 60 and have done some dumb moves myself like the $145,000 lot that we purchased in Riverbend (part of Sun City in Bluffton, SC) intending to build a house on it and retire there.  That was before my husband decided he was not ready to retire so we moved to a active adult community in the Shenandoah Valley near Front Royal Va about 45 minutes from our prior home in Loudoun County.  Now we love it here so much that they will never get me out of this community so we now have this lot that we bought at the peak of the real estate market that we can't get anything close to what we paid for it back.  Thank heavens we do not have a immediate need for the money so we are holding on hoping that the market will revive in a few years and we can at least break even.  In the meantime we pay HO dues, property taxes and just last week we were notified by the HOa that we have dead trees that we have to pay someone to cut down and remove.  More money down the pit!   As that great philosopher Rosanna Danna Danna said "It's always something"!


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## Lawlar (Sep 2, 2008)

*We'll Simply Enjoy It*



MOXJO7282 said:


> Hi Lawlar,
> If you can begin to split/rent/use your week, then indeed the purchase can have a positive ROI, even with the big purchase price, your ROI is just longer.
> 
> If you can get a 1BDRM OF week in Maui with your costs offset or eliminated by renting your OF studio, then there is your ROI. Same is true if you can get 2 weeks out of ownership for the price of one week.
> ...



Joe:  I enjoy reading the posts of those who have successfully "invested" in TSs.  They are really interesting.  It shows that there are many ways to succeed in life (and many of those ways have nothing to do with finances).

We intend to use the Maui TS every year.  I've told the 7 year old grandkid that he gets the lock-off as his own and he'll get to enjoy surfing lessons every year.  When I go to that courtroom in the sky (sounds like purgatory), then the grandkid will get the TS and, hopefully, he'll be able to profit from its use and/or sale.


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## pwrshift (Sep 2, 2008)

KathyPet said:


> ... have done some dumb moves myself like the $145,000 lot that we purchased in Riverbend (part of Sun City in Bluffton, SC) intending to build a house on it and retire there. That was before my husband decided he was not ready to retire ..."!


 
Kathy...DaveM might want to buy it from you with all his MR points.  

Brian


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## wa.mama (Sep 2, 2008)

JimC said:


> People buy direct for different reasons.  I can come up with 7 easily:
> 
> 1.  Brand new resort just open up for sale
> 2.  High demand fixed week
> ...



Very succinctly stated.  We've purchased 2 non-marriott resale, and 4 marriott developer (using points 1-6 stated above).  You have to decide what works for you.  Gather your information BEFORE going in to the sales presentation.  Know what your long-term plans are - I also agree with the poster who mentioned that in the future, as retirees, the points do bring about the hotel package possibilities.  Right now, with the 3 kids, I can't imagine staying in a hotel, but hopefully that day will come


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