# United airlines issues



## dougp26364 (Apr 24, 2008)

The other day I read about United's rather large loss for the last quarter andit got me to thinking, they're going to change my flights to HNL. Sure enough I got that phone call today. 

The nice early AM flight that would get us home the same day was canceled and they put us on a late evening flight. In calling I was able to get it moved up a little earlier but, it's still an overnight flight and neigther of us really prefer the overnight flights. We just don't sleep well on a plane and would rather remain active reading, listening to music, playing on the computer or whatever and then get a good nights sleep in our own bed. 

I know every airline changes flights but it still ticks you off when it's a major change. This time what really ticked me off was that the original reservationionist I talked to on the phone did NOT link our reservations together. Needless to say my wife and I would have been on different flights if we didn't recieve the call. BTW, we only were called on one reservation rather than both. 

One more little piece of salt in the wound was that I had to remind the reservationist I was talking to that it would be nice if he made certain we still had seats together on the new flight. Of course they weren't together. If I hadn't mentioned that little tid bit we'd have had a nice long 8 hour flight seperated by what could have been more than a few rows.

Now I have to figure out how to explain to my wife that we've moved from row 25 back to row 32. She's slightly claustraphobic and the further back in the plane she is the worse it gets for her. Fortunately, we'll be on a 777 rather than a 767 so the difference probably won't be noticable for her. But she those bigger numbers always make her a little more nervous. 

So United got it half right by notifying at least one of my reservation numbers. They missed it when they didn't have our reservations cross referenced and they missed it when they didn't notice that we had lost our seat assignments when they changed flights. I keep thinking that one day the airlines will get it that customer service is actually important. Mostly the little things like not screwing up a persons reservations like keeping groups seated together when there's an equipment change.


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## Jimster (Apr 24, 2008)

*UAL*

I do not apologize for UAL but there are some things that should be said.  First, my experience with Hawaii is that almost all the airlines are capable of making changes and do for Hawaii.  Second, if you had purchased your tickets on the same PNR, you would not have to worry about them being linked.  The computer would have kept you together (probably).  Since you purchased on different PNR's, the computer reassigned your seats with the time change or equipment change.  Being linked is a manual thing that will only work if it is a human looking at the reservation and not the computer.  Third, if you had status with UAL your seat assignment could have been improved.  Since you apparently don't have status, that is one of the things that happens, but you could always opt for economy plus and see if you could all sit together there.  Fourth, if you really don't like what happened, you can probably change flights without a fee since the time difference is apparently a substantial modification by UAL.  Fifth, be persistent and talk with a supervisor on the phone or gate personel on the ground.  Try not to have either of you accept a middle seat since if you have a middle seat no one will want to trade with you.  If you have two aisle seats or two window seats or combination thereof, it is likely you can make your own creative seat map by trading with someone on the plane when you get on if nothing has been done to solve the problem by then.  The good news is that UAL notified you.  The lesson here is not that United is screwed up (which they may be) but that as a traveler these days the ball game has changed.  You need to know how to deal with the issues and not expect United or any other carrier to look out for you.  Today it is all about packing them in- not on providing a pleasant flight.  This is true on almost all airlines unless you are an elite.
Finally, Although it does not relate to your post I would gratuitously add that another change in the rules is price.  PRICES ARE GOING TO BE HIGH!  THE COST OF FUEL IS HIGH!  Planes use fuel.  Also the competition keeps dwindling.  It seems like every other post on here people seem shocked that the price of the ticket has gone up.  Well, that's the new reality like it or not.  Propeller driven airplanes aren't in vogue any more either.


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## Dave M (Apr 24, 2008)

Very well stated, Jim!!!

As to Doug's specifics, I would add....





> Now I have to figure out how to explain to my wife that we've moved from row 25 back to row 32. Fortunately, we'll be on a 777 rather than a 767 so the difference probably won't be noticeable for her.


I agree. At row 32, you'll still be in the main economy cabin, not the aft cabin.





> I keep thinking that one day the airlines will get it that customer service is actually important.


As Jim stated, "The ballgame has changed." Airlines are cutting personnel, not adding personnel - by the thousands. They are trying to save $$$ every possible way they can. So customer service will continue to decline at all airlines, at least for the foreseeable future. 

The best we can hope for is that once we get our more expensive plane ticket, we diligently check our reservations frequently online and call if something goes wrong. Then check in and on flight day hope our flight is not canceled or delayed so much that we miss a connection. I'm now routinely allowing at least two to three hours between connecting flights because of the dramatic increase in late flights - with more to come. 

This shapes up to be the most horrible flying summer on record. Prepare yourself, assume the worst and hope for the best.


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 24, 2008)

Doug,

It's not over.  I would simply be happy if you actually get onto a flight and return without being bumped due to a cancelled flight or terminated airline.

Today, there is a run on rice on Oahu.  Sam's Club and others are limiting how much you can buy.  

Sam's Club limiting rice sales


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## drguy (Apr 24, 2008)

Same for Sam's Club and Costco here in the Boise area.
Guy


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## dougp26364 (Apr 25, 2008)

Jimster said:


> I do not apologize for UAL but there are some things that should be said.  First, my experience with Hawaii is that almost all the airlines are capable of making changes and do for Hawaii.  Second, if you had purchased your tickets on the same PNR, you would not have to worry about them being linked.  The computer would have kept you together (probably).  Since you purchased on different PNR's, the computer reassigned your seats with the time change or equipment change.  Being linked is a manual thing that will only work if it is a human looking at the reservation and not the computer.  Third, if you had status with UAL your seat assignment could have been improved.  Since you apparently don't have status, that is one of the things that happens, but you could always opt for economy plus and see if you could all sit together there.  Fourth, if you really don't like what happened, you can probably change flights without a fee since the time difference is apparently a substantial modification by UAL.  Fifth, be persistent and talk with a supervisor on the phone or gate personel on the ground.  Try not to have either of you accept a middle seat since if you have a middle seat no one will want to trade with you.  If you have two aisle seats or two window seats or combination thereof, it is likely you can make your own creative seat map by trading with someone on the plane when you get on if nothing has been done to solve the problem by then.  The good news is that UAL notified you.  The lesson here is not that United is screwed up (which they may be) but that as a traveler these days the ball game has changed.  You need to know how to deal with the issues and not expect United or any other carrier to look out for you.  Today it is all about packing them in- not on providing a pleasant flight.  This is true on almost all airlines unless you are an elite.
> Finally, Although it does not relate to your post I would gratuitously add that another change in the rules is price.  PRICES ARE GOING TO BE HIGH!  THE COST OF FUEL IS HIGH!  Planes use fuel.  Also the competition keeps dwindling.  It seems like every other post on here people seem shocked that the price of the ticket has gone up.  Well, that's the new reality like it or not.  Propeller driven airplanes aren't in vogue any more either.



At one time I did have status with UAL. I dont' fly as much since I don't have to go out to the west coast to work so those days are long gone. However, I quit flying UA because status did not matter to them. At least it didn't at the time. We were still treated like dirt and had seats reassigned to less desirable seats on flight out to Reno.

As far as this is the way they all do it, THAT'S what needs to change. Customer service has long been gone from the airline industry. They keep making record losses and wonder why. 

The point of my post wasn't to necessarily sound off about United but about the airline industry as a whole. I've seen posts about AA, NWA and Delta where people were ticked off about schedule changes or seat reassigments. I've come to expect it over the years and understand it's all a "computer" thing. I know that when I book 9 months in advance on ANY airline, this is going to happen. My point to others was, it happens on EVERY airline at some point in time. Since we book a year out and will book the most reasonable price with the best route for us (at the time of booking), I'm very accustomed to having to watch my resevations to make sure things don't get screwed up.

Delta, for us, is the worst. I'll always start out with seats towards the front of the plane but, by the day of the flight we're usually 3/4 of the way to the back of the plane. Unfortunately, that's just the way it goes with airlines these days. Despite who's (or what computer's) fault it is, it's still bad customer service and encourages people to seak other means of travel.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 25, 2008)

Dave M said:


> Very well stated, Jim!!!
> 
> As to Doug's specifics, I would add....I agree. At row 32, you'll still be in the main economy cabin, not the aft cabin.As Jim stated, "The ballgame has changed." Airlines are cutting personnel, not adding personnel - by the thousands. They are trying to save $$$ every possible way they can. So customer service will continue to decline at all airlines, at least for the foreseeable future.
> 
> ...



You are correct. The ballgame has changed. Not just for airlines but in most aspects of American business pratices. Doing the little things that keep customers happy has gone by the wayside in favor of impersonal automation that often mucks things up. As a result, profits fall when people leave.


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## Dave M (Apr 25, 2008)

dougp26364 said:


> As a result, profits fall *when people leave*.


But that's not what's happening, Doug! Planes are at record high capacity levels - on almost every airline! People are still flying - on fewer planes at higher prices, while the airlines incur even higher costs. So the airlines are losing $ billions (with a *b*) customer service stinks, on-time performance stinks, cancellations stink, but ...

...people keep on flying.


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## Jimster (Apr 26, 2008)

*the old days*

Does any one remember flying before deregulation?  While there are many causes to the current crisis, I put deregulation at the top.


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## short (Apr 26, 2008)

*Posession 9/10ths of the law.*



Jimster said:


> Does any one remember flying before deregulation?  While there are many causes to the current crisis, I put deregulation at the top.



I remember my boss always wanting to be first on the airplane boarding.  Not because of overhead space but because seats were frequently assigned to two different people.  If you had your butt in the seat and someone came along with the same seat assignment, they had to go and get a new seat assigned.  I don't think anyone got compensation for being bumped back then.

I am not sure times are worse, just different.

Short


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Apr 26, 2008)

Jimster said:


> Does any one remember flying before deregulation?  While there are many causes to the current crisis, I put deregulation at the top.



Of course I remember flying before deregulation.  When I was in college in St. Louis, I flew home to Minneapolis on student steandby fares.  Braniff was confirmed seats at 2/3 fare.  Cost me ~$100 each way.  That was in the early 1970's.  Since gasoline was about $0.40/gallon, flying was a luxury.  Most of the time I ride-shared to get home or took Greyhound.

When I moved to California in 1973, I found that PSA flew from San Francisco to Los Angeles for $19, one way. Full fare with no discounts. The mileage between San Francisco and Los Angeles is not much different than the mileage between St. Louis and Minneapolis. Yet the fare was less than 20%.  The difference is that PSA flew strictly within California, so fares were not regulated by the CAB.

To this day - more than 35 years later - I can still occasionally find fares on that run for ~$100, i.e., less than the St. Louis to Minneapolis fare.  And that's without even considering inflation.  

The simple, unalterable fact is that deregulation has made flying vastly cheaper.  So much cheaper that flying is now as cheaper or cheaper than driving for many trips.

=====

Deregulation has contributed to the current infrastructure issues, but only because deregulation has made flying so accessiible and such a routine activity that the air travel infrastructure hasn't been able to keep up. 

You know, we could solve all of the problems by going back to regulated fares.  If we did it the "old way' for which people seem to wax nostalgic, we should immediately raise almost all air fares by 400%.  Many fewer people would fly, leading to fewer flights, less crowded airports, and more reliable control systems.  Airlines would make plenty of money, customer service would return, and everyone would be happy.  Except, of course, those people who were no longer able to fly because they couldn't afford.  Many of us at TUG would have to sell our Hawai'i and Mexico timeshares; if we stayed as timeshare owners we would switch to "drive-to" locations.

====

Deregulation has also allowed airlines to directly compete on fares and service.  The unmistakable lesson learned has been that in general if you give the traveling public a choice between better service and lower fares, they will always choose lower fares, and then complain about lower service.  But when it comes time to buy transportation, the public doesn't buy better service.  Every carrier - except for some small boutique carriers - that has tried to provide better service with higher fares has been totally beaten down in the market by lower price carriers. 

==

Yes, I remember the days of regulated airlines, and I have zero interest in going back to those days.


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## dougp26364 (Apr 26, 2008)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> ....... The unmistakable lesson learned has been that in general if you give the traveling public a choice between better service and lower fares, they will always choose lower fares, and then complain about lower service.  But when it comes time to buy transportation, the public doesn't buy better service.  Every carrier - except for some small boutique carriers - that has tried to provide better service with higher fares has been totally beaten down in the market by lower price carriers.



I don't believe there can be any arguement with that statement.


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## x3 skier (Apr 26, 2008)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Yes, I remember the days of regulated airlines, and I have zero interest in going back to those days.



For business travel where someone else pays, yes. For my travel where I pay, no.  

Cheers


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## Jimster (Apr 26, 2008)

*lower prices*

I agree that is what has happened.   We now have lower prices and poor service.  That's the trade off.  So when I read about people who don't like the service, I am also mindful that the prices are lower.  You get what you pay for.  The trick is to utilize the lower prices you currently have and still maximize the service.  For the general flying public, it often is impossible.  A flyer's best hope now, is to be a member of one of the airline elites.  Having said that, you read all the time how even some of the elites get terrible service and endless problems.   However, its better than flying as a general member.  One final thought, when i have said things like that, many people respond with "but I don't fly enough to be an elite."  The truth is there are ways to accomplish this with just a little time, knowledge and investment.  If you really want a better experience, that is what you need to do.


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## rschallig (Apr 26, 2008)

*Mergers and Alliances*



Jimster said:


> ...We now have lower prices and poor service.  That's the trade off.  So when I read about people who don't like the service, I am also mindful that the prices are lower.  You get what you pay for...



I am not sure if services will improve but it does appear that the future could hold higher prices. According to Reuters yesterday, American Airlines has had early-stage merger talks with US Airways and is in advanced talks for an alliance with Continental Airlines. Delta Air and Northwest Airlines announced nearly two weeks ago they planned to merge. Continental is also in advanced talks with United for a full merger. United is also in merger talks with US Airways. The bottom line is that we could have a reduction in competition that could lead to higher fares and fewer choices for travelers. No promise of better service.
Bob


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## Jimster (Apr 26, 2008)

*prices*

The lower prices I was referring to are those in the recent past.  I don't know anyone who will argue that now that the competition is being taken out of the market place and now that oil prices have sky rocketed that the prices will not increase across the board.


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## rschallig (Apr 26, 2008)

Jimster, my intent was just to give the latest information on the airline merger and alliances. I should not have quoted part of your previous message. Sorry.
Bob


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## middleoforchid (Apr 26, 2008)

Steve,I have just retired after working for the airlines for 30+ years and you have summed up the flying scenario perfectly!!! We cannot affford full fare then and always go standby yet the plane is never full!Now we use ffmiles and pay regular fares since the planes are always full.I would say fares have about doubled but our earnings have quadrupled in 30 years.........


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## TheTimeTraveler (Apr 27, 2008)

Deregulation of the airlines in the late 1970's have led to much lower air fares, and those that used to ride the bus/train could now afford to fly.

Result?   Long Distance Passenger and Bus train travel has fallen, and many of the surface public transportation options have been reduced or eliminated.

Does anyone know if Greyhound and Trailways are still in business or are they a shadow of what they once were?


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## falmouth3 (Apr 27, 2008)

Greyhound is still in business and serves Massachusetts and many other locations.  Not sure about Trailways.  Bus service between Boston and NYC is very competitive and I just read an article that says there are now 5 companies doing that route.  If I ever get my TS request for NYC filled, I'll be taking the bus.  It will be less expensive than driving, never mind adding in the parking fees!

Sue


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## dougp26364 (Apr 28, 2008)

falmouth3 said:


> Greyhound is still in business and serves Massachusetts and many other locations.  Not sure about Trailways.  Bus service between Boston and NYC is very competitive and I just read an article that says there are now 5 companies doing that route.  If I ever get my TS request for NYC filled, I'll be taking the bus.  It will be less expensive than driving, never mind adding in the parking fees!
> 
> Sue



I haven't seen a continental trailways bus is ages. The station in Kansas City and the one in Wichita have been closed for many years as far as I know. The one that was in downtown Kansas City was a rather scary place to be at night IMO. The Greyhound station isn't a lot better. 

It's been ages since I've taken Greyhound anywhere. Stopping 20 time and taking 5 hours for a 2 hour drive have kept me off the bus. That and the fact that I didn't speak Spanish. 

If they ever got to the point that they provided comfortable, efficient and clean service at a responable rate I might consider taking the bus again but, I don't see that day happening in the midwest.

They are talking about bringing train service back between Wichita, KS and Fort Worth, TX. If it's reasonably priced and if I have enough time to endure the multiple stops along the way, I'll consider taking the train rather than driving the car. For me it'd be great if train service ran north to Kansas City with a decent schedule and decent fares. While we were in Scotland, we found their train service between towns to be a joy to use and we used it daily on vacation.


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## "Roger" (Apr 28, 2008)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> ...The unmistakable lesson learned has been that in general if you give the traveling public a choice between better service and lower fares, they will always choose lower fares, and then complain about lower service.  ...


In general, yes.  People have flock to low prices and miserable service.  

But, airlines have not given us much choice.  I can be miserable on airline A or airline B or pay triple/quadruple fare for business class.  I would be and have been (I do regularly use a boutique airline with better service even when it is not the least expensive) willing to pay an $50 to $100 for a little more leg room, etc.  For the most part, airlines have given us an all (business class, first class) or nothing choice.  So all of us got stuck with what people _in general_ choose.

(Yes, I am aware that some airlines are beginning to experiment in this direction. Hopefully, they will find that some people are like me and will pay something less than triple or quadruple fare to get a modest upgrade.  I just wish we could erase the last ten years of airservice and have had more consumer choice as I hope to see in the future.)


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## x3 skier (Apr 28, 2008)

"Roger" said:


> (I do regularly use a boutique airline with better service even when it is not the least expensive)



According to the WSJ this morning, EOS has shut down so one less choice. 

Cheers


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