# Need help from the fare search experts



## 3kids4me (Mar 19, 2006)

Hi all,

I've been looking without success for a reasonably priced flight from the New York (LGA, JFK or HPN) or Hartford areas to the L.A. (or Orange County, Ontario, Long Beach) area, leaving on December 23rd and returning on December 30th.  I would prefer a non-stop flight, or at least a flight that isn't flying completely out of the way for its stop so that the total travel hours are not horrible.  I also do  not want a flight that is a red eye or arrives in the middle of the night.

I don't know all of the tricks for searching various systems, so if anyone can help I would really appreciate it!  

Thanks so much!

Sharon


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 19, 2006)

*Flight Searches*

Sharon,

If you haven't already, consider www.kayak.com

and also www.farecompare.com



Richard


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## camachinist (Mar 19, 2006)

Try SWF...

I'll check some things and get back to you..

Pat


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## camachinist (Mar 19, 2006)

```
$242.70 in US Dollars
1 adult @ $242.70
Show booking details

This ticket is non-refundable.

Changes to this ticket will incur a penalty fee.

Airport legend:
BDL: 	Hartford/Springfield Bradley Int'l
DFW: 	Dallas/Fort Worth Int'l
ONT: 	Ontario, California Int'l
	
Hartford, CT to Ontario, CA: 2653 miles 	8 hrs 33 min
American Airlines 	American Airlines Flight AA847 on a MD-80 (jet) in coach class
     (food for purchase) 	
Departs Hartford, CT (BDL) 	Sat, Dec 23 	1:38p 	 4 hrs 7 min
Arrives Dallas/Fort Worth, TX (DFW) 		4:45p 	
	Layover in Dallas/Fort Worth 	1 hr 14 min
American Airlines 	American Airlines Flight AA1481 on a MD-80 (jet) in coach class
     (food for purchase) 	
Departs Dallas/Fort Worth, TX (DFW) 	Sat, Dec 23 	5:59p 	 3 hrs 12 min
Arrives Ontario, CA (ONT) 		7:11p 	
 
Ontario, CA to Hartford, CT: 2653 miles 	8 hrs 19 min
American Airlines 	American Airlines Flight AA2248 on a MD-80 (jet) in coach class
     (food for purchase) 	
Departs Ontario, CA (ONT) 	Sat, Dec 30 	10:39a 	 2 hrs 55 min
Arrives Dallas/Fort Worth, TX (DFW) 		3:34p 	
	Layover in Dallas/Fort Worth 	2 hrs 4 min
American Airlines 	American Airlines Flight AA1922 on a MD-80 (jet) in coach class
     (food for purchase) 	
Departs Dallas/Fort Worth, TX (DFW) 	Sat, Dec 30 	5:38p 	 3 hrs 20 min
Arrives Hartford, CT (BDL) 		9:58p
```


```
Fare Details
 
Departing Airport 	BDL
Arriving Airport 	ONT
Departure Date 	12/20/06
 
Note:
The fares listed do not include airport and/or security fees.
 
Fare Basis 	Airline 	Booking Class 	Trip Type 	Fare 	Effective Date 	Expiration Date 	 
112 Fares Returned
T21M1BVN 	CO 	T 	Round-Trip 	212.00 (USD) 			View Rules    View Routing
TE211NNX 	UA 	T 	Round-Trip 	212.00 (USD) 			View Rules    View Routing
N21E1MZN 	AA 	N 	Round-Trip 	212.00 (USD) 			View Rules    View Routing
M7OWNR 	WN 	M 	One-Way 	150.00 (USD) 			View Rules    View Routing
T7NBV 	DL 	T 	One-Way 	150.00 (USD) 			View Rules    View Routing
SA14AN 	UA 	S 	One-Way 	150.00 (USD) 			View Rules    View Routing
NR7DNR 	AA 	N 	Round-Trip 	300.00 (USD) 			View Rules    View Routing
TR7V8N 	NW 	T 	Round-Trip 	300.00 (USD) 			View Rules    View Routing
```

Note multiplicity of options in this fare range...


Sold... Book 'em Dano... 


Pat


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## 3kids4me (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks guys.

Pat, the flight combination you found is one that I actually have on hold right now (through AA) because that's the cheapest I could find...but the flight time is very long since we have to fly down to Dallas first.  It does sound like that may be the best I can do (unless I am reading your chart wrong...they do all stop in Dallas, right?) ...but I'm wondering if I should be waiting for the Southwest and Jet Blue (both have non-stop) fares to come out, or if that would be a bad idea.  I know that I haven't had luck with good fares from Jet Blue (during holiday weeks) in the past, and by the time those fares do come out, the lower fares on other airlines will likely be gone.

What do you think?

Thanks again,

Sharon


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## shell_man89 (Mar 19, 2006)

Sharon,
You should try ITA's site. http://www.itasoftware.com/ They make the software for many flight search engine. You can't book flights but it gives a very good first look at what it will cost. You can then go to any on-line site to book the fare.

Sample (2 people)
$326 Midwest Airlines LGA to LAX Sat, Dec 23 6:40a-11:04a 7h 24m  Stops at MKE
                                 LAX to LGA Sat, Dec 30 7:25a-5:55p  7h 30m  Stops at MCI

 $352 American EWR to LAX Sat, Dec 23 8:40a-11:49a 6h 9m nonstop
                        LAX to JFK Sat, Dec 30 2:15p-10:28p 5h 13m nonstop

Fares look pretty good for this time of the year.
John


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## camachinist (Mar 19, 2006)

Try another carrier... UA will likely route through ORD or DEN, and CO through EWR or IAH. Watch your fare buckets. That's why I posted the fares.

Personally, I don't think the AA routing is that bad. Also, in December, I'd rather route through DFW than ORD any day of the week. It's winter, ya know 

Pat


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## camachinist (Mar 19, 2006)

If you want, I can likely get you a W fare on p.s. (Premium Service) non-stop JFK-LAX for 338+. We might be able to throw in an end connector somewhere and get it down to a S or T fare, but doubtful that time of year. Excellent service and flight. I'm in C on the red-eye tomorrow night LAX-JFK on a  mileage run. I'll wave 

Pat


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## camachinist (Mar 19, 2006)

One last thought. Generally, non-stop trancons bring a premium price, due to business travelers. This may not be true during the holidays, but vacationers transplant business folks then, so generally keep price pressure up.

Also, as a point of comparison, a non-stop is about 5.5 hrs eastbound and 6.25hrs westbound, depending on winds. Compare that to your existing times with the connector.

Personally, I prefer red-eyes for the non-stops, so I can sleep. Otherwise, it's just sitting there feeling my butt start to hurt  

Pat


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## debraxh (Mar 19, 2006)

I agree with Pat that Dallas is a much better stopover in the winter.  Plus, it's not that much further south than LA anyway.  That's the route I would choose unless I went for the non-stop. I flew via Denver once in mid-November and we were delayed for hours for de-icing.  What a nightmare


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## 3kids4me (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks you all for the excellent points.

Pat, I didn't really understand what this means:



			
				camachinist said:
			
		

> If you want, I can likely get you a W fare on p.s. (Premium Service) non-stop JFK-LAX for 338+. We might be able to throw in an end connector somewhere and get it down to a S or T fare, but doubtful that time of year. Excellent service and flight.
> 
> Pat



I am such a flight scheduling novice...I have no idea what a W fare is, or what premium service is (is that like business class or something?) or even what S or T fares are.  I know that a "Y" fare is full price!

I have some frequent flyer miles on AA, and I can't even figure out if, given my current reservation, I could use them to upgrade...which would make the flight time more tolerable.  I am travelling with my family and this is why I'm concerned about the flight times and not doing a red eye...if it were just me it wouldn't be a big issue.  Also, since every fare is multiplied by five...it adds up!!  

Thanks again!

Sharon


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## camachinist (Mar 19, 2006)

Premium Service is a UA product, which is largely unknown to those on the dAArkside 

http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,50964,00.html

W (generically) is a fare bucket... WE211NNX is a fare basis and is booked into the W booking class. See code below. W is an economy class fare on UA.


```
Fare Details
 
Departing Airport 	NYC
Arriving Airport 	LAX
Departure Date 	12/20/06
 
Note:
The fares listed do not include airport and/or security fees.
 
Fare Basis 	Airline 	Booking Class 	Trip Type 	Fare 	Effective Date 	Expiration Date 	 
25 Fares Returned
WE211NNX 	UA 	W 	Round-Trip 	338.00 (USD) 			View Rules    View Routing
VE14N2NX 	UA 	V 	Round-Trip 	398.00 (USD) 			View Rules    View Routing
VRA14NXL 	UA 	V 	Round-Trip 	398.00 (USD) 			View Rules    View Routing
```

You can upgrade your revenue tickets with miles, barring a few fare classes. It should say on your itinerary page on AA whether the tickets are upgradeable. If you are elite, you can buy/earn 500 milers to upgrade as well.

https://www.aa.com/apps/AAdvantage/...iptor=AAdvantagePartnersContent#upgradeAwards

Personally, I'd take every desired local and destination and work the options.

For NYC, you can use JFK, LGA, EWR, HPN, SWF, and BDL reasonably

For LA, you can use LAX, ONT, SNA, BUR,  and LGB reasonably 

Hope that helps...

Pat


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## JillChang (Mar 20, 2006)

camachinist said:
			
		

> If you want, I can likely get you a W fare on p.s. (Premium Service) non-stop JFK-LAX for 338+. We might be able to throw in an end connector somewhere and get it down to a S or T fare, but doubtful that time of year. Excellent service and flight. I'm in C on the red-eye tomorrow night LAX-JFK on a  mileage run. I'll wave
> 
> Pat



Pat, I see you mention here and on FT link that you send me, but, what is a "mileage run"?


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## Pat H (Mar 20, 2006)

JillChang said:
			
		

> Pat, I see you mention here and on FT link that you send me, but, what is a "mileage run"?



A "mileage run" in the strictest sense of the phrase means that one flies for no other reason than to accumulate miles. A mileage run will often involve an immediate turnaround. Mileage runners will also book out of the way connections to maximize the mileage. For example, I flew Philadelphia-Dallas-London-Raleigh Durham-Philadelphia. I would have flown thru Dallas on the return also but it was more expensive. I had 2 hours at the airport in London before my return flight. One of the other benefits of mileage running is to reach elite status.

There are many UA flyers who are flying their butts off during March since they will be getting triple miles on every UA flight. I'm sure that Pat and Dave M will chime in here. They might even admit to how many miles they are flying this month.


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## Dave M (Mar 20, 2006)

Pat H said:
			
		

> There are many UA flyers who are flying their butts off during March since they will be getting triple miles on every UA flight. I'm sure that Pat and Dave M will chime in here. They might even admit to how many miles they are flying this month.



Triple FF miles on UA in March is actually quadruple miles for many, because elite bonus miles are not included in the "triple" definition. Thus, for the 27,712 actual miles I am flying on UA this month, I'll earn 110,848 FF miles, plus more for online booking bonuses and ticket purchase charges to my UA credit card. 

The value of those FF miles is more than what I paid for the tickets! 

Mileage running is a disease. It's in the same family of diseases as the ones that make us buy more timeshares than we need and spend too much time on TUG.


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## camachinist (Mar 20, 2006)

I knew the resident FF'ers would find this thread 

I'm off on two back to back transcon MR's today. By the end of March, I'll have 62K BIS and ~260K RDM's in the bank. 

Dave's right, it's a disease ...

Timeshare equivilent might be the old buying of cheap SA timeshares to work trades into high end domestic properties. Not exactly, but a similar strategy.

Pat


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## urban5 (Mar 20, 2006)

*Link to fare program*

Pat what is the link to the program that you used to bring up the flight information you posted?

Thanks


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## camachinist (Mar 20, 2006)

urban5 said:
			
		

> Pat what is the link to the program that you used to bring up the flight information you posted?
> 
> Thanks


 http://www.expertflyer.com/

Subscription service, about 100.00/yr

Pat


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## 3kids4me (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm still trying to find that United flight that is direct and $338!  The cheapest I have found is $357...

EWR is a real hike for us...Harford is actually closer, I think, and no bridge to cross.

It looks like changing planes adds about 3 hours to our trip...with the total flying time being too uncomfortable for my family (especially my daughter, who fatigues easily).  If I can find that direct flight for the $338, it may be worth it even though it's nearly $500 more for my family.

We have no status on any airline, unfortunately, and the American routing I have on hold is apparently not a fare class that can be upgraded with miles (at least for a "regular" person like me).

Of course, maybe this all means that the trip is not a good idea!!

Any advice?  Do you think Jet Blue will be in the same price range, or much more expensive?  Is it worth waiting or will the other fares all be huge by then?

Thanks,

Sharon


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## Dave M (Mar 20, 2006)

Sharon -

Although the fare exists (easiest to get it is on American), the dates you want to travel - and several days around your dates - are blacked out for the fare. Or, depending on the airline, there are simply no flights with the fare available.

$357 is very reasonable for a holiday fare. Unless you want to risk waiting for JetBlue, I would grab that fare or take the one you have on hold.


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## 3kids4me (Mar 20, 2006)

Thanks Dave!

Sharon


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## camachinist (Mar 20, 2006)

Sharon... Listen to Dave 

Seriously, the fare I quoted you was the base fare, which didn't include taxes and fees. You found the right fare.

I'm off on some MR's for the next couple days, so I'll be in and out. Have fun!

Pat


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## shell_man89 (Mar 20, 2006)

*Whats a good MR?*

Pat

When you get a chance. What do you consider a good MR and whats the price you would pay?

John


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## JillChang (Mar 20, 2006)

Dave M said:
			
		

> Triple FF miles on UA in March is actually quadruple miles for many, because elite bonus miles are not included in the "triple" definition. Thus, for the 27,712 actual miles I am flying on UA this month, I'll earn 110,848 FF miles, plus more for online booking bonuses and ticket purchase charges to my UA credit card.
> 
> The value of those FF miles is more than what I paid for the tickets!
> 
> Mileage running is a disease. It's in the same family of diseases as the ones that make us buy more timeshares than we need and spend too much time on TUG.



Oh my god! please don't tell me this, you are passing on the disease to me.  Damn!  I am not working full-time, only as an occasional buyer since I sold my business last year, so I got loads of time on my hand.  After I found TUG, I am buying more timeshares than I need, but I am talking myself into buying more!

And Now THIS!!!!

I am thinking I need the flying to go with my timeshare, how else can I use them up!    

Ok, seriously.  I am doing quite a bit of flying already the last few month.  Short ones to trade shows around U.S.   Long one to China for buying at least twice a year.  And to top it off, I am thinking at least two vacations a year, Summer and Xmas with my kids and parents........AND the Master plan of them all, an around the world trip with my family in Summer 2007, covering every continent except Africa!!!!   So......MR to get air miles is beginning to sound convincing!!!!

Ok, FF's.  My main airline out of Toronto is Air Canada, Star Alliance.  But I also have a great CC that convert points to BA at 50% bonus.  Any suggestions on how I can accumulate more miles?   Will this UA triple miles special work for Aeroplan (AC)?  How do you find those great MR deals?  and how can I find descent J or C fares?

Jill


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## camachinist (Mar 20, 2006)

shell_man89 said:
			
		

> Pat
> 
> When you get a chance. What do you consider a good MR and whats the price you would pay?
> 
> John


 As you reside in Dave's territory, I'm sure he has some excellent ideas on the subject. Much depends on which carrier you wish to focus on. Off the top of my head, on UA, I'd look at BOS-ORD-NRT-BKK and return, which I believe Dave has done. That's about 20K BIS r/t. You can get there creatively and milk it a bit, AFAIK. Dave knows right coast pricing better than I, but I recall seeing some fares out of ORD for ~600.00, although prices now, ex-BOS, are running 800-900+ currently. IMO, long-haul is the best bang for the buck, if you can catch a spot sale with no minimum stay, as I just did to MEL, and will to DUB this weekend. 

Domestically, tour the hubs of your favorite airline. As an example, for UA, BOS-IAD-ORD-LAX-SEA-NYC-BOS....

Keep an eye on the mileage runner forum on FlyerTalk. Contribute. Learn. There's a whole subculture that never sees the public board, for mileage runs and hotel deals. 

Hope that helps!

Pat


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## JillChang (Mar 21, 2006)

Is this March triple miles thing still on?


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## camachinist (Mar 21, 2006)

JillChang said:
			
		

> Is this March triple miles thing still on?


 Relevant FT thread...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=515251&highlight=choice+promo

It's for UA elites who qualified last year...

Pat


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## Dave M (Mar 21, 2006)

Pat H gave an excellent definition of a pure mileage run - a trip with no other purpose than earning FF miles and/or or earning partial credit toward elite (or higher elite) status with the airline. Both Pats (Pat H and camachinist) know what they are doing when it comes to mileage running. That means they are certifiably crazy, just as I am! 

From a pure economic sense, it normally makes sense to take a mileage run trip only if the value of the miles earned will be at least as much as what the expenses for the trip are. (I'll ignore the loss of time that could be used constructively in a different way.) Thus, if you value FF miles at two cents each, you should endeavor to find trips that will cost less than two cents per FF mile earned. As an example, my trip to Singapore earlier this month cost about a penny per FF mile, thanks to all of the bonuses. And thanks to some of the perks I had earned, I flew the entire 22,304 miles on my economy ticket in first class and business class, making a very long trip quite enjoyable!

The added benefit of earning elite status and the perks that come with it can be well worthwhile for someone who travels a lot to spend more per mile, if necessary. Examples of elite perks, depending on the airline, include bonus FF miles for every flight, free upgrades to first class or business class, priority boarding, extra baggage allowance, access to exit row and other good seat reservations, priority standby waitlisting, waiver of some fees, access to additional hard-to-get frequent flyer award seats, access to a priority phone line and an offer of hotel accommodations for weather delays.

It’s beyond the scope of what we can do here to fully explain how to find a mileage run. The best place to hang out and learn is in the Mileage Run forum at FlyerTalk. The sticky threads at the top of that forum include a basic Mileage Run primer, and a variety of tools for learning about, finding and booking your own mileage runs. There is even some info on free “how to” mileage run seminars that you can attend in various places around the U.S. However, beware. Those seminars are not designed as a basic introduction to mileage runs. They assume that attendees have digested and practiced with most of the tools presented in that forum.


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## shell_man89 (Mar 21, 2006)

Dave & Pat,

Thank you! I was at flyer talk for a while. I think I have the sniffles.

One more question,
I am a UA FF with status and contemplated purchasing a subscription to 
Expertflyer. I did not sign up yet because it appeared that you cannot see the Award travel seats/fares for UA. Any thoughts?

John


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## 3kids4me (Mar 21, 2006)

Hey, I like how this thread started by little ol' non-status me got hijacked by you frequent flyer big guns!!  

Meanwhile, I discovered a little trick of my own for keeping a fare I like while I'm not ready to book yet...24 hour holds! (Fare is guaranteed on the AA site.) I guess I can keep doing this until the fare goes up, right?

Sharon


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## JillChang (Mar 21, 2006)

Dave & Pat (both Pat)

It seems you are doing all your MR run on UA.  I have flown UA business once as part of my Asia trip and I am not all that impressed with its seats and service.

For Star Alliance, I really prefer AC, ANA, and Singapore airline.  It seems to me most of the FT focus on UA or other US airlines, which in my opinion, are not as good in their business or first class in international flights.  

Any thoughts on how to accumulate miles on AC, ANA, or Singapore airlines?


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## Dave M (Mar 21, 2006)

Sharon -

Yes, those 24-hour holds are very, very useful!


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## Dave M (Mar 21, 2006)

Jill -

I agree Singapore Air is the best! Both for comfort and service! Unfortunately for me, enough of my travel is domestic that I would lose out on many mileage earning opportunities - such as the current triple miles promotion - if I didn't concentrate my travel on UA or another U.S. airline. Thus, I limit my travel on SQ to routes (e.g., SIN-PEN-SIN) that UA doesn't fly. Fortunately, UA has just embarked on a retrofit of its Business Class and First Class cabins on its Pacific fleet. So, more comfort for those of us who fly UA is on the way!

The theory for mileage running on SQ or another airline is the same as for UA. The key is making sure you understand your chosen airline's FF program, get on e-mail lists for all of their offers and promotions and monitor bulletin boards (e.g., FlyerTalk's Star Alliance forum) for special fares, promotions, double miles offers, etc.

Also, some airlines have FF programs, promotions and fares that are better suited to mileage runs. For example, if you choose to fly on an airline that never has fare sales, never has bonus mileage earning opportunities and doesn't have other offers that the gurus at FlyerTalk can figure out how to use for mileage running, you might enjoy your flying experience, but might not be able to earn FF miles that are worth more than your trips cost.


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## camachinist (Mar 21, 2006)

> Meanwhile, I discovered a little trick of my own for keeping a fare I like while I'm not ready to book yet...24 hour holds! (Fare is guaranteed on the AA site.) I guess I can keep doing this until the fare goes up, right?



As Dave stressed, very useful. I do rolling bookings all the time and most of my current runs were done that way. Additionally, on AA, you can book and hold award bookings for 14 days, which is useful if plans aren't completely fleshed out.

Well, I'm in the SFO RCC, back from my red-eye p.s. MR; now it's back to MOD and do it all over again tonight. I C last night, I slept from wheels-up until they chimed for landing this morning. I'm thinking hard about trying for C again tonight 

I think what I'm currently doing right now is what PatH and Dave would call a pure mileage run. I'll earn ~50K miles and ~13.5K EQM's for about 571.00.

Happy landings! 

Pat


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## Pat H (Mar 21, 2006)

Sharon, I do the hold thing whenever I think the price might come down or I'm not really sure of my plans. Unfortunately, not all airlines allow you to hold the tickets. US used to have a great policy of a full refund if you canceled within 24 hours of purchasing. However, they did away with that when they merged with America West.

I also hold FF tickets for as long as I can, often doing bookings a week apart so that I can keep the hold on longer. 

Sorry for hijacking your thread!


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## Pat H (Mar 21, 2006)

JillChang said:
			
		

> Dave & Pat (both Pat)
> 
> It seems you are doing all your MR run on UA.  I have flown UA business once as part of my Asia trip and I am not all that impressed with its seats and service.
> 
> ...



Sorry, Jill, I really can't help you with that. I'm not at all familiar with any of those. I was actually an Elite on AA for several years before I started hanging around with What's His Name.


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## Dave M (Mar 21, 2006)

Pat H said:
			
		

> ...before I started hanging around with What's His Name.


Hey! I resemble that remark!


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