# [2009] White Sands Waikiki Resort Club



## rachel1998

I have a RTU week at this resort. This is the last year of it for me. We purchased it on a resale with 12 years left. I only have used it for trading purposes. It has been a lousy trader by the way. Today I received in the mail a letter with a bill for a special assessment for $695.00. I don't care if I don't use it this year. What happens to my credit if I don't pay this?
Thank you


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## Michael

*Anyone know?*

Anyone know?


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## dougp26364

I would assume that it's like any other unpaid debt on your credit record. If they report it as an upaid debt, you'll take a hit. You also open yourself up to collection efforts and, depending on how far the resort wants to take it, legal action to collect the debt. Don't forget that they might tack on collection costs, late fee's and interest along the way.


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## philsfan

rachel1998 said:


> I have a RTU week at this resort. This is the last year of it for me. We purchased it on a resale with 12 years left. I only have used it for trading purposes. It has been a lousy trader by the way. Today I received in the mail a letter with a bill for a special assessment for $695.00. I don't care if I don't use it this year. What happens to my credit if I don't pay this?
> Thank you



It could be worth a call to them to negotiate that figure down due to the circumstances of your RTU.  The worst that can happen is that they say no.  

If the 2009 week is not deposited yet, you could try to rent it to recoup some of that fee.


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## outatime

*this has been a timeshare nightmare!*



rachel1998 said:


> I have a RTU week at this resort. This is the last year of it for me. We purchased it on a resale with 12 years left. I only have used it for trading purposes. It has been a lousy trader by the way. Today I received in the mail a letter with a bill for a special assessment for $695.00. I don't care if I don't use it this year. What happens to my credit if I don't pay this?
> Thank you



Rachel, Hi, I'm Dee.  I too have a week at this resort and it has been a nightmare.  This is our final year, as the lease has finally expired, as each year the maintenance dues have escalated to way over what my other timeshare ownerships are at which I have owned for twenty plus years!  It's ridiculous and I too have now been assessed this bogus charge.  Not only is it my final year, but the resort threatens to close down anyway and why anyone would send money in to this is like rearranging deck chairs on the Titantic!

The economy is taking it's toll on us all and my husband not only just lost his income but he was recently diagnosed with cancer.  I called these people and they could care less.

I hope someone else will read this and NOT buy in to this resort!  It's nothing but a worthless money pit!  They should be run out of town!

I hope some others in this same predicament will see this post and perhaps we can form a class action.  

Dee


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## outatime

philsfan said:


> It could be worth a call to them to negotiate that figure down due to the circumstances of your RTU.  The worst that can happen is that they say no.
> 
> If the 2009 week is not deposited yet, you could try to rent it to recoup some of that fee.



I did call them and they were very unmoved.  They suggested I talk to the finance dept. to do just what you said but I know that if they have to send it to collections, they will get pennies on the dollar, less than what I would be "talked down to" and I want THEM to take the hit!  

I'll deal with collections when they call.  This is a bogus charge and when it pulls my impecable credit score down, it will be obvious it is bogus! 

Dee


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## outatime

dougp26364 said:


> I would assume that it's like any other unpaid debt on your credit record. If they report it as an upaid debt, you'll take a hit. You also open yourself up to collection efforts and, depending on how far the resort wants to take it, legal action to collect the debt. Don't forget that they might tack on collection costs, late fee's and interest along the way.



They can take it as far as their "bankrupt butts" want to take it!  I have paid my dues each year to the tune of almost $800 per year and it's the most difficult TS to use.  They are going after the ones of us who DO pay.  They are going down for the count and it's a good thing.  They'll not get anything from me and I'll take my "hit" and maybe take it all the way to Dateline or something!  I've talked my way out of bogus "hits" to my credit in the past when all of my other debts history is perfect, it was not problem to redeem myself.  I'm not going to let them hold my good credit hostage to bilk money out of me.  They can bite me!

I hope others who read this will be forwarned!

DEE


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## teepeeca

Has anyone asked the "mangement company" --- and I use that term loosely---what the special assessment is for; who approved it; why they would have a special assessment in the LAST YEAR or the RTU "ownership"??? (etc.)

I "believe" that you could re-butt almost all of their answers, and might "suggest", that you will want "authorities" to look into the "bogus" fee, as attempted extortion.

That might "wake them up" a bit.

Tony


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## rachel1998

I am not sure what to do. I do not want to take a hit to my credit. I have a very high FICO score but I do not want to pay this fee. I read the letter that they may loose their lease anyway. The trading value of this resort is a joke and you are right the fees have gotten way out of control. We have until March 15th to send the money in.


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## outatime

rachel1998 said:


> I am not sure what to do. I do not want to take a hit to my credit. I have a very high FICO score but I do not want to pay this fee. I read the letter that they may loose their lease anyway. The trading value of this resort is a joke and you are right the fees have gotten way out of control. We have until March 15th to send the money in.



Rachel, here's the deal.  If you do not pay them, they will have no other choice then to send it to collections  Now, collections will buy the debt from them for pennies on the dollar.  They loose money but get a little but a lot less than what we would have paid them.  Then collections will negotiate with you before they send to your credit report.  Then you have to decide if you are going to pay it at all but buy forcing in to collections, the resort looses and that's my goal.  They have taken enough of my money and I am sure many others.  

If you choose to not pay the collection people, then after a period of time, they will report you to the credit bureau.  They are holding us with good credit hostage with this fee and this should be illegal.  I don't care what any contract states, ambiguous or not, no body should be able to just assess you fees for no reason. 

We are getting punished for the ones that did not pay their dues.  That is what this is all about.  We are the ones that pay, they look at our credit report and they know we will pay it to avoid the hit to our good rating.  They are criminals no better than cut throat sharks.

Other than someone taking a flame thrower to their resort, people need to try to band together against them.  Problem is, you and I now are the only ones that know about us.  We have no access to any records for other owners/members.  

My timeshare lease on this property expires in April.  Why would I pay something when I am on my way out of being able to use it anyway?  So you see what crooks they are.  

I'm calling all three of the credit reporting entities and informing them of what is taking place.  I will put a "protest" on this on record there and see if anything can be done.

If anything would go on your rating like this and bring the score down, which it would, anytime you would try to get credit, it would be in question no doubt but because the rest of your history is prestine, many entities will ignore it and loan you the money for a car, house whatever because I have been through this one other time in my life.

Hopefully, some other owners will see our postings and come on here and we can get something started.  I'd like to take these people down in flames!  

Dee


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## outatime

teepeeca said:


> Has anyone asked the "mangement company" --- and I use that term loosely---what the special assessment is for; who approved it; why they would have a special assessment in the LAST YEAR or the RTU "ownership"??? (etc.)
> 
> I "believe" that you could re-butt almost all of their answers, and might "suggest", that you will want "authorities" to look into the "bogus" fee, as attempted extortion.
> 
> That might "wake them up" a bit.
> 
> Tony



Hi Tony.  I have talked with their so called "management".  They have done this before but for a much smaller amount, which I ended up paying.  I went to an attorney with my contracts and he basically looked at me and said, "this is what we mean when we say "buyer beware"."  In my contract it states that "special fees may be assessed".  It is so hidden in the text of the document I couldn't even remember it.  We paid cash for the timeshare week a whopping $1995!  That should have tipped us off right there!  Over the last seven years, the yearly dues have escalated from $450 to the last one I just paid in December nearly $800.   We've never even used the timeshare because when you try to use it, they have all these "windows" or they are booked up, and the excuses go on and on.  I've even called RCI which I am a member of and own two other timeshare weeks that work out just fine.  One I've owned since 1986 and the other one since 1992 and both of them have just barely gone over $400 a year in dues in all this time.  

I think someone higher up needs to look at these people before they slip away in the bankruptcy.  They've already claimed it once.  It's a nightmare!  My main fear right now is something they said in my letter in that they are trying to get the state of Hawiaii to extend the leases!  OMG!  Can they do that?  If they did and I refuse to pay ANY dues or assessments, they can foreclose your week.  

NO MORE TIMESHARES!

Dee


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## rachel1998

I agree with the no more timeshares. At one time I actually owned 10 weeks. Over the last 6 or 7 years I sold all but 4 plus this RTU. This is my last year also. I bought it with 12 years left. I have never used it and it trades so poorly it was a waste of money. From now on I will rent.


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## teepeeca

*Outatime*

I'm not quite sure "how" the state of Hawaii could have any part in "extending the leases"  !!!???  The state of Hawaii does NOT own the land, or have anything to do with the current Lease (s).  It is under private ownership, and the private owner probably does have a lease, which probably would expire around 2050.

They might be talking about the original leasehold/grant, and (a few years back) the state authorized leasehold condominiums (including timeshares) to be able to acquire "fee simple" ownership of the land.

I would ask the "management company" who the purchaser was, of the property, and what plans they have for it?  Also ask them, to show you in WRITING, their authority, to "manage" the resort past the RTU expiration period of 2009.

Tony


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## Lee B

FWIW, remember that if your credit score gets hit you can write a letter that must go into your file.  In the letter you tell your side of the story.  It might not improve your score, but it could make a difference with some lenders.  Perhaps some quasi-legal entity would look into the incident after seeing your letter, too, but I wouldn't count on it.

The letter can be long enough to include the gists of comments here and why you declined to pay into a failing enterprise.  Make it business-like so you appear to be the wise and careful party in the affair, one that would be a low lending risk.


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## DK09

*special assessment*

we too have the rtu at white sands and will not be paying the special assessment.  The land is on a 14 acre parcel  owned by the queen emma foundation and needs to be re-leased.  (international market is also on that property)
have talked to other owners equalling 12 weeks and no one else is paying either.  We are all writing letters stating the obvious reasons why we will not be paying.   if it comes to collections so be it.  but they are also saying if they don't receive the funds that they have no choice but to close the resort prematurely----right now you can not rent or use your owned time after April 1, 2009.   rumor has it they are going to remodel in may---wonder where they plan on getting the money from!!!


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## rachel1998

A few months ago I deposited my 2009 week with RCI. Does that mean I cannot use my week either way? I don't want to make a trade if I can't use it after April 1st. Where did you hear this?


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## DK09

*white sands*



rachel1998 said:


> A few months ago I deposited my 2009 week with RCI. Does that mean I cannot use my week either way? I don't want to make a trade if I can't use it after April 1st. Where did you hear this?



Sorry-I meant May 1.  We were there this past Christmas and into January and they are not taking any reservations after May 1, 2009.  Call reservations and ask them.....also you cannot go online and book through celebrity after that time either.  A friend of mine also deposited her 2009 weeks with RCI-she called them yesterday and as far as they are concerned her weeks are fine and she has full tradability!  So far we have five of us 12 weeks worth- that are writing a letter and sending them in around the 5th of March (before the due date) stating that we will not pay and the reasons why.  We need more people to do this.


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## rachel1998

I will do that as well. Do I dare try and use that week that I have deposited with RCI?


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## JeffW

Glad I found this thread!  My parents are in the same boat - own a week there (which they've never used), so they were almost glad the RTU period was ending soon, so they could get out from under the annual m/f.  I think it's ridiculous that a resort that planned on closing within a year, they wouldn't at least put the special assessment to an owner vote.  I'm sure they can't be the only ones looking to be done with the resort.

I've never been thru this before, but my guess (hope!) is that they'd send out a 1st or 2nd notice about non-payment before it escalating to collections.  If there was someone smart on the board, if they saw all the non-payments (especially if they were submitted with letters clearly stating "I don't want to pay this"), maybe they'd just rescind the entire S/A.

My father was curious if the resort closed, and it was left with a negative balance, would they be liable for any of those debts.  My guess is that since I doubt he'd own anything that could result in a profit at the end of usage, he's also likely not liable for anything.  He's pulling out his purchase agreement so we can try to determine this.

Jeff


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## JeffW

Reading thru the S/A line item costs, it lists $776,315 for "Expired Memberships / Association Owned Weeks".  If the annual fee is roughly $776/yr (someone mentioned $800), does this translate to 1000 interval weeks the association owns?  If so, that's almost 1/4 of the 4160 annual interval units.  I don't know how that compares with other resorts.

Jeff


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## DK09

rachel1998 said:


> I will do that as well. Do I dare try and use that week that I have deposited with RCI?



I don't see why not.  You had to pay your maintenance fee prior to depositing..so it should be yours to use.   Call RCI to double check that they have it in the files.


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## DK09

JeffW said:


> Reading thru the S/A line item costs, it lists $776,315 for "Expired Memberships / Association Owned Weeks".  If the annual fee is roughly $776/yr (someone mentioned $800), does this translate to 1000 interval weeks the association owns?  If so, that's almost 1/4 of the 4160 annual interval units.  I don't know how that compares with other resorts.
> 
> Jeff



My problem with this whole thing is that there are a lot of interesting and hidden things going on.  they changed the name of the resort from Celebrity Resorts  to White Sands Development LLC in July 2008--did they tell anyone? no  
http://hbe.ehawaii.gov/documents/business.html?fileNumber=27213C5&view=documents

Also the Business Registration Division in Hawaii shows "this business is not in good standing"  problem there
http://hbe.ehawaii.gov/documents/business.html?fileNumber=27213C5&view=documents

our original certificates -signed and dated 2-11-80 were for 28 years.
which would have left us done on 2-11-08.  It now states 12-31-09 and the letter wants to extend this time to 3-2010.  they are just looking for someone to pay to keep the resort going so that they can -as rumor has it- remodel in May and open up as a nightly rental hotel/resort

we are not paying and will send a letter to them in March listing our reasons.

"something is rotten in the state of Denmark"


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## teepeeca

*DK09*

If your original documents state a RTU, 28 years, expiring in 11/2008, then that is when your usage expires.  They CANNOT "unilaterally" extend that timeframe without YOUR acceptance.

SO, according to YOUR documents, you now DO NOT own, or have a "right-to-use" anything regarding that timeshare entity.  If the "managaement company" tries to assess you maintenance fees, or a billing for a "special assessment", tell them to "whistle Dixie"--- you are NOT paying anything.

If they try to persist (in writing), after you have told them (in writing) you are not paying anything, anymore, and they threaten you in any way (turning it over to a collection agency; reporting you to a "credit" agency; etc.), file legal charges against them for "extortion" !!!  (Can also go through a "civil suit" against them.)  I'm willing to bet that they would "back-off", and you would get a letter of apology.

Tony


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## DK09

*update*

If anyone is interested this was in todays Honolulu Star Trib.

http://www.starbulletin.com/news/hawaiinews/20080924_Market_Place_to_be_revamped.html


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## lsk

*celebrity waikiki*

I, too, own at Celebrity Waikiki and have recieved the "assessment" and will not pay it. We used our time for 2008 and 2009 over Christmas and New Year's so our time is up. We have faithfully paid our ridiculously high maintenance fees and assessments for years and enough is enough! If you have read the link that DK gave you to the Hawaii paper just today, you will see that the resort is one that may be in the Queen Emma redevelopement plan. My credit score is almost perfect so I'm not too worried about that. I am more worried about  the harrassment that may come with not paying. I like the idea of going to the media!! LOL!!!! I will send in my letter the first week in March.


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## JeffW

I finally got my father to call White Sands to try to deposit whatever usage he still might have.  Unfortunately, since the wording of the S/A was "payable upon receipt of the letter", that's now considered an unpaid balance on his account.  Like any unpaid balance, they won't deposit a week with RCI until the payment has been settled.  [To a big degree this is my father's fault, as he should have just banked it right after he paid the annual fee.]

The person he talked to (not sure if at White Sands HNL or an office on the mainland) said that he heard, "the resort will be shutting down Dec 31", I think basically an acknowledgement that the previous link about the Queen Emma Land Co. redevelopment will cause White saids operations to stop.  

My father and I speculated on some issues:

1. A chunk of the SA funds were listed for "2010 operations".  Doesn't there need to be an official announcment at some point as to whether 2010 operations will exist (looks like 'NO')?  If so, at a minimum, wouldn't they need to redo the SA amount?

2. Based on likely poor S/A payment rates, is White Sands likely to say, "It was overwhelmingly rejected, we are cancelling it'?  If they do that, they should be liable to return money anyone paid (or a prorated portion of 2010 expenses). However, if they don't do that:
a) they could keep the money
b) they could keep many of the remaining weeks (figuring owners won't pay the S/A to either occupy or bank them)
c) everyone could have an unpaid debt against their credit.

I think my father said his usage was "April to November" (seems like a big window).  If correct, then he will still have the entire Summer for the S/A fiasco to fall apart, allowing the week to maybe be usable.  

It still shocks me that there was _someone _on the board that said, "It's stupid to expect people to pay an extra fee for a resort which more than likely is closing."  Really smells of desparation.

Jeff


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## DK09

There cannot be any 2010 operations as the latest contract states you only have a RTU until Dec. 31, 2009.  They can't keep extending just for their money purposes. 
No one I have talked to is paying and we will just have to deal with the debt on our credit.  
If you try to book after May 1, whether as an owner or online as a guest, they are not taking any reservations.  Don't expect any money back from them.
As you have paid your maintenance fee for 2009 you probably can't get a room  there unless your stay is before May 1 and you pay the s/a. 
it really is a circus.


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## Blackwhat

*Complain to RICO*

I am new to TUG but am very thankful for this opportunity.
I have filed a complaint with the Regulated Industries Complaints Office (RICO) in Honolulu and the Professional and Vocatioal Licensing Div. Dept of Consumer Affairs also in Honolulu. Their addresses are:

Regulated Industries Complaints Office
Dept. of Consumer Affairs
236 South Beretania St. ninth floor
Honolulu, Hawaii 96813

Time Share Administrator
Professional and Vocational Licensing Division
PO Box 3469
Honolulu, Hawaii 96801

In making a complaint to the latter I made reference to the letter which accompanied the assessment bill. In it the assoc and or Celebrity implies that they cannot quarantee use of the week we are entitled to.  HAR chapter 106-4 section D item (2D) may have some bearing in regard to the plan managers ressponsibility. (HAR= Hawaii Administrative Rules) Search on internet will find complete text.
In regard to RICO my complaint questions the details lacking in the bill and the fact that the letter implies that there is no guarantee a unit will be available since they may become insolvent. More later. 
Blackmail-- Sorry! I meant Blackwhat


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## Blackwhat

*Some options and thoughts*

I have today requested a copy of the bylaws of the assoc of members of the White Sands Resort Club via e-mail.
Send request to: Anne.Thompson@celebrityresorts.com
Suggest everyone get a copy.

A set of guidelines for timeshares can be found at HRS514E Time Sharing Plans.  www.capitol.hawaii.gov/vol12 (HRS = Hawaii revised statutes)


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## Blackwhat

*Proxy form*

I found a proxy statement on the internet dates 2/03/09. I did not receive one and on reading it found it referenced HRS 514B-123 which specifically relates condominiums. There is a separate
chapter (HRS514E) that relates to timeshares. In the original disclosure statement we received in 1983 item 6 it states "White Sands is a resort hotel and not a condominium".
The proxy also makes reference to a "DEED". We users do not have a deed. I was never informed that there was a commingling of different types of owners withing the Assoc. of members of White Sands Resort Club. To find proxy search for white sands assoc on internet. 
As the saying goes I feel something is rotten in Denmark.
Blackwhat


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## DK09

great info.  I too will write to the addresses listed....those are great sources.


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## Blackwhat

error in trying to edit


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## Blackwhat

posted in error


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## Blackwhat

*Collections*

The last assessment about 4 years ago provided us with some insite (meager as it may be) into the tactics used by this "GANG". 
We were hounded by a collection agency and it seems if I remember correctly each month the interest kept accumulating.

Finally we caved in and paid up after negotating a smaller amount
of fees. At the time I had become aware of the Time Share PLan Chapter 514E of the Hawaian revised statutes which in my impression highly favors the developer and or the association in regards as to who pays for what.
It also implies that the association could file a suit for a judgement against assests such as bank accounts and real property. That is the real unknown.
My original letter requesting an explanation of the recent assessment has not been answered. IT was received on Feb. 20th and I have confirmation of receipt. I also sent another letter letting them know that we dispute their demand for payment of a special assessment. It was only mailed on 3/2/09 so we have not received confirmation as yet. This last letter was sent to the Phoenix office since that is where the bill came from and that is where they indicated inquiries should be made.I had better close as my 15 minutes is about to expire . MOre later Blackwhat


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## Blackwhat

*Collections part2*

In the past I have written numerous letters and made many phone calls and have never received a response. Even C. Craig Lewis a president at Celebrity has no regard for the members as he does not respond either.
As far as the board of the Association of members, I don't believe there are more than two or three board members and I am sure that whoever or whatever ownes the 1000 units is the only guy that counts. He has a twenty five percent majority before any vote is taken.
Of course Madoff with his 50 billion scam is hard to beat.
Blackwhat


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## Blackwhat

*Confusion abounds at the White Sands*

Another point I would like to address is the relationship of the entities involved. We have 1.White Sands Waikiki Resort Club,    2. Association of Members of White Sands Waikiki Resort Club,    3.White Sands Management LLC, 4.Assoc Members White Sands Waikiki, 5. White Sands Waikiki Resort Club Association, Inc.,
6. Celebrity Resorts Waikiki Association of Members of White Sands Resort Club, 7. Celebrity Resorts, 8. Celebrity Resotrts of Hawaii Management Company, LLC, manageing agent, and now a recent development thru a name change, number 9. White Sands Development LLC.
For those who may not know the meaning of LLC, it means Limited Liability Corporation and I am sure you know the meaning of that.
The point I am trying to make is that we do not know if all these groups are separate entities. We get billed and mailed things that refer to one or another of the groups mentioned under a completely different letterhead and usually without a signature.
All for now. Blackwhat


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## JeffW

Blackwhat said:


> The last assessment about 4 years ago provided us with some insite (meager as it may be) into the tactics used by this "GANG".
> We were hounded by a collection agency and it seems if I remember correctly each month the interest kept accumulating.
> 
> Finally we caved in and paid up after negotating a smaller amount
> of fees. ..



Who potentially would be the creditor here, White Sands management?  If so, I wonder what their status will be after the resort closes?  At some point would they close shop?  Or would Celebrity be the creditor, who would still remain in business?

If it goes to a collection service, can you distinguish between those are return a portion to the company (which may not still be around) and those that buy up debts for some amount, and any recovering is income for them?  

Semi-related, does anyone think there's an advantage to sending an official notification to White Sands that you disapprove of the S/A, and won't be paying, vs just not paying it at all?  I'm not sure if some definitive contact is better that what could appear to be just ignoring it.

Jeff


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## Blackwhat

*response three questions*

I believe the Association will be the creditor in event of collection process.
The last time (previous assessment) we were turned over to a collection agency and a fee of about 40 percent was added. It is important to dispute the assessment in order to prove to the collection agency that you have a ongoing dispute with the creditor. He is required to honor the dispute and get some answers to prove the creditor is correct.
We need to get everyone to dispute this assessment of $695.
I recommend fileing a complaint with the RICO also. 
Blackwhat


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## Blackwhat

*Proxy statement 02/03/09*

If you would like to see the proxy statement which you may not have received a copy of, do a "search" for "members proxy white sands". 
You will notice at bottom a date with the year being the first two characters and the month and day following.
I don't know the purpose of the proxy request.
It does imply that condominium owners are involved in our association. Why is this not detailed in the budget?
As yet I have had no response on my request for a more detailed explanation of the budget and of the special assessment and it is now two weeks since their receipt of my request per certified mail.
Please e-mail me your thoughts. This could be in preperation for a sale of units as condos after the place goes belly-up by the new LLC called white sands development. Who knows what evil lirks in the hearts of men. The Shadow Knows. (That was for those who remember Lamont Cranston) 
Blackwhat


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## Blackwhat

*Queen Emma*

If Celebrity can come to a agreement with Emma it puts them in place to sell condos after the rest of us go down the tubes.
Blackwhat


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## lsk

*white sands waikiki*

I mailed my letter today, stating my reasons for NOT paying the assessment. If they turn me over to collections, so be it. I am NOT paying it. I did not send it registered mail. If no one pays it they will have a very hard time taking everyone to collections! Good luck everyone! I will also write to the above addresses with my complaints and a copy of my letter refusing to pay the assessment. I will also write to the 3 credit reporting agencies if I get another bill.


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## qaRuss

*Just on property*

We arrived at the resort on February 22 to finish up our RTU having been two weeks on The Big Island and were greated rudely by the on site manager demanding payment before we checked in. I did not pay, we checked in a couple hours later. Most on property had not paid and were planing to dispute. Letter is clear, if owners don't pay, will be turned over to collections and the resort may close. It should!
On site staff are just wonderfull and should be snapped up by any other Waikik property as they are handling this extreemly well.
I have written Celebrity to ask for copy of Board minutes approving special accessment, audited statement confirming financial results 2008 and auditors projections 2009. So far no reply.
My agreement clearly expires in 12/09. I used 2009 weeks prior to March 15. My current year mf's were paid in advance.
I am not planning to pay, at least not without something more then a demand letter from Celebrity.


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## DK09

*white sands manager*

so was it Judy who was the onsite manager at the time you checked in?


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## DK09

Blackwhat said:


> Another point I would like to address is the relationship of the entities involved. We have 1.White Sands Waikiki Resort Club,    2. Association of Members of White Sands Waikiki Resort Club,    3.White Sands Management LLC, 4.Assoc Members White Sands Waikiki, 5. White Sands Waikiki Resort Club Association, Inc.,
> 6. Celebrity Resorts Waikiki Association of Members of White Sands Resort Club, 7. Celebrity Resorts, 8. Celebrity Resotrts of Hawaii Management Company, LLC, manageing agent, and now a recent development thru a name change, number 9. White Sands Development LLC.
> For those who may not know the meaning of LLC, it means Limited Liability Corporation and I am sure you know the meaning of that.
> The point I am trying to make is that we do not know if all these groups are separate entities. We get billed and mailed things that refer to one or another of the groups mentioned under a completely different letterhead and usually without a signature.
> All for now. Blackwhat



On January 4, 2005 name change from celebrity resorts of hawaii, llc to celebrity resorts of waikiki, llc
On July 7, 2008 "Celebrity Resorts of Hawaii Management Company, LLC" was changed to "White Sands Management, LLC".   signed by a Jared M. Meyers, President and CEO.
If you would like a copy let me know and I will forward you a copy of the form.
still terribly confusing..??


----------



## rose490

DK ...WOULD YOU SEND ME A COPY Rose490@aol.com
We own three weeks> I have written to Anne Thompson and have not received a response.


----------



## DK09

*white sands*



rose490 said:


> DK ...WOULD YOU SEND ME A COPY Rose490@aol.com
> We own three weeks> I have written to Anne Thompson and have not received a response.




sent the three items I have to you.... 
Remember that you do not OWN there, you only have a right to use......


----------



## JeffW

I drafted this letter for my father to send (figuring it was better to provide official notification of non-payment then look like a deadbeat):

_I am providing notice that I am disputing payment of the special assessment fee in your February 5 2009 letter.  In the letter it states, “Without these funds the Association will have no choice but to close the resort prematurely.”

I am satisfied with this course of action, and find it preferable to requests for any additional money to prolong operation of a closing resort_

Any comments?

Thanks.

Jeff


----------



## DK09

*letter*



JeffW said:


> I drafted this letter for my father to send (figuring it was better to provide official notification of non-payment then look like a deadbeat):
> 
> _I am providing notice that I am disputing payment of the special assessment fee in your February 5 2009 letter.  In the letter it states, “Without these funds the Association will have no choice but to close the resort prematurely.”
> 
> I am satisfied with this course of action, and find it preferable to requests for any additional money to prolong operation of a closing resort_
> 
> Any comments?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Jeff



sounds good...that is pretty much what everyone has talked to has done.


----------



## rachel1998

I am still wondering if RCI will let me use my 2009 week that I have deposited with them? I am not going to pay the assessment. Will White Sands contact RCI and tell them not to let me use my week? I don't know if I should try and get an exchange for the week.


----------



## JeffW

I was wondering that myself.  If I had to guess, I'd say at initial deposit time (with RCI) is the only time the resort verifies the status of the week.  If WS allows the week to be deposited, I wouldn't think they can go back to RCI later on and either revoke the deposit, and/or cancel an exchange made with it.  

I'm not sure what's "normal" for special assessments, but based on the above logic, it would seem best to make it as part of the regular annual fee payment.  When it isn't, you get into situations like are probably happening with WS, where owners who paid they annual fee and deposited their weeks were able to make use of them (and have no reason to pay the SA), but the rest of us effectively to pay ransom to get usage back.

Jeff


----------



## Blackwhat

*Read my previous postings*

Please see and review my previous postings regarding WhiteSands assessment.
This new addition now includes ref to the Orlando Sentinel. Contact has been made with hopes of establishing a route of communication which has not been available to date since Celebrity appears to not respond to members. From what I can determine a Carly Powell seems
to have been authorized to respond to the newspaper. Be careful as proper authority is required in some cases to publish addresses. ???


----------



## Blackwhat

*RICO address*

In filing a complaint please be sure to include correct zip code
 and the correct mailing  address.  Errors persist!


----------



## qaRuss

*Avenue For Complaint?*

Trying to come up with some way of forcing Celebrity to respond to our concern and it dawned on me Celebtrity is likely a member of ARDA.
I have searched the ARDA page and yes, there they are, a member in good standing.
ARDA has a code of ethics and a means by which to file complaint.
Site is ARDA.org
Complaint forms available through MPatatore@arda.org
I have requested complaint forms this evening.
I am suggesting those visiting this thread bombard ARDA with requests for complaint forms.
As TS owners you are funding ARDA. Maybe they can help resolve this.
Russ


----------



## Blackwhat

*email address MPatatore incorrect*

The email address in your message Russ comes back as unknown. Is there an error with the address in your message. 
I have looked at the Code of Ethics of Arda an if nothing else it pretty much covers financial praactices. and service to owners and guests. Great reference.
Blackwhat


----------



## Blackwhat

*complaint to FTC*

www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov

Then click on Complaint form at upper right side of page. 

The FTC Bureau collects complaints and they have a form by which you can file a complaint on-line on their web site.
Everyone should give it a try. 

If problem locating useing above address do a search for "FTC" and there is a link about the third paragraph down that refers to "collects complaints". 
I filed my complaint today against Celebrity and got a ref #. 
Blackwhat


----------



## Blackwhat

*GDawson Orlando Sentinel*



Blackwhat said:


> www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov
> 
> Then click on Complaint form at upper right side of page.
> 
> The FTC Bureau collects complaints and they have a form by which you can file a complaint on-line on their web site.
> Everyone should give it a try.
> 
> If problem locating useing above address do a search for "FTC" and there is a link about the third paragraph down that refers to "collects complaints".
> I filed my complaint today against Celebrity and got a ref #.
> Blackwhat



Another contact that everyone should write to is GDawson@orlandosentinel.com
He is very interested in consumer affairs and has contacted Celebrity on our behalf.


----------



## qaRuss

*Correction on ARDA email contact*

Sorry but mistyped the contact for Arda complaint form.
Contact is MParatore@arda.org and not as previously listed.
Should have taken typing way back in High School!
I did send to correct email yesterday. As of this evening not acknowledged and no complaint form received.
Russ


----------



## Blackwhat

*correction*

Thanks Russ,
I took typing but didn't do very well in that or English. John


----------



## lsk

*lsk*

I just sent a complaint to the FTC online. It's very easy and fast. I don't know if it will do any good or not but the more of us who complain the better. I mailed my letter to Celebrity last week saying that I am not paying and why. If any of you get a reply please let the rest of us know.


----------



## JeffW

lsk said:


> ...If any of you get a reply please let the rest of us know.



Based on what I think will be an extremely low payment rate, I'd suspect the next communication will be from WS to all owners, with updated information.  I'd be surprised if they handle each owner separately.

Jeff


----------



## Blackwhat

*ARDA a Resort Association*

I am gathering up some info such as letters sent to and budget billings received regarding Celebrity and White Sands to ARDA. 
ARDA is the org mentioned in one of gaRuss messages.
It is a organization Celebrity belongs to and they have certain ethical requirements for its members regarding owners.
 I have tried reaching them via E-Mail but have not received a respsonse.
Their address:  ARDA
                1201 15th St. NW  Suite 400
                Washington D.C. 20005-2842
Please drop them a note.
Blackwhat


----------



## Blackwhat

*letter to GDawson*

I have sent an e-mail to GDawson of the Orlando Sentinal; here is a copy for those familiar with Carly Powells reply to him.

Mr. Dawson,
    I have not heard anything from Carly Powell.
However I did think of something that I thought should be mentioned in regard to Ms Powell's e-mail statement to you. 
    In the last paragraph she discusses the use of other accommodations within the Celebrity system for members in good standing should the resort close prematurely. Why wasn't this commitment made to the membership in the billing letter or otherwise. The remarks she made were new to me. 
    Not that I believe any member would be interested in spending $1470 plus air fare for a week at the White Sands Waikiki. Thank you for your interest, 
John  Blackwhat


----------



## Blackwhat

*notice of disputing bill*

I just noticed on the back of the special assessment bill that they want correspondance disputing a bill to go to an address in Scottsdale, Az.. 
This out fit has got a different address for everything and none of them seem to work. What a joke. However it might pay to send it to Scottsdale.
Black mail--Sorry I meant Blackwhat.


----------



## Blackwhat

*Are we a right to use timeshare or a condo combination.*

My original disclosure statement from White Sands specifically states we are not a condominium. 
Now we find there is a proxy statement for Assoc.Members White Sands Waikiki dated Feb. 2009 regarding condominiums and deeds. 
My original contract also states we will not have an association but that the developer will handle the management.
My question is: what happpened to our original agreement and are we being taken for a ride. Madoff comes to mind.
Blackmail-- sorry again, I meant Blackwhat


----------



## Blackwhat

*timeshare vs condominium fees*

I do not know why the Association White Sands should not explain the difference in annual fees between condo owners and right to use owners. Please e-mail your request for clarification to: 
carly or Ann Thompson. If you need address let me know.
I received a reply from Ann Thompson after my 3rd request stateing I would get a response in seven or ten days regarding a request for the by laws. She did manage to extend the date beyond the due date for the S/a. after which I would have to junp thru a hoop to get anything. 

Blackwhat


----------



## Blackwhat

*Celebrity called*

Celebrity called about 1:15 PM Calif time. The gal asked me to call regarding the special assessment but then talked so fast I could not get the phone number she requested I call. 
If you get a similar call please post the phone number.
Thanks Blackwhat


----------



## rachel1998

800-588-2680. I did not speak to anyone I hung up. That was the number recorded on my cell phone. Let us know what you find out.


----------



## lsk

*white sands*

I just got an automted call from Celebrity too asking to call an 800#. I am not going to call, they can send something in the mail just like I did with my letter! Let me know if anyone does talk to them.

Thanks!


----------



## DK09

*phone call*

if anyone hangs on long enough to get to talk to someone let the rest of us know ASAP so we can be prepared.


----------



## Blackwhat

*celebrity phone number*

I received the phone # to call. 800 588 2680.
I called a few times and after several options and then waiting for further assistance while listening to some gal repeat "we appreciate your patience" a zillion times I gave up. I will try again later. They must be extremely busy. 
I did call 800 423 8604 and talked to Dolores and she told me she thought that they wanted to remind me that the due date for the special asessment had past. 
I have to wonder how many members have actually paid out of the three thousand or so memberships besides the developers. LOts of phone calls I am guessing.
Blackwhat


----------



## Blackwhat

*re;800 588 2680*

I found out from Ann Thompson that this is the phone # of the Financial Services Dept.
I called early this AM and got thru right away. The gal named Sonja asked me if I was calling about the SA and I indicated I was concerned about the over all budget and had written to several offices requesting info and never received a reply. She said that she was there to answer my questions. I told her I preferred the answers in writing and hung up. So much for that.
Blackwhat


----------



## DK09

*response*



Blackwhat said:


> I found out from Ann Thompson that this is the phone # of the Financial Services Dept.
> I called early this AM and got thru right away. The gal named Sonja asked me if I was calling about the SA and I indicated I was concerned about the over all budget and had written to several offices requesting info and never received a reply. She said that she was there to answer my questions. I told her I preferred the answers in writing and hung up. So much for that.
> Blackwhat



Great response.  If they call me, I will give them the same.


----------



## JeffW

Might be useful to get the their answers over the phone, then say, "Can you confirm that in writing?"  It would be curious to hear what their non-official answers are, since I have some doubts if they'll put much in writing.

Jeff


----------



## rickandjenn

Like all of you, this special assessment infuriates me.  I am very frustrated and a little mad at myself for being suckered in by Prefered Equities.  

I have written to Celebrity Resorts, the BBB for FL and HI, and the AG for FL and HI.  No real response from anyone yet...

I also posted on Celebrity Resorts "contact us" form.  I stated that in reviewing my contract from PE's, there is not provision for a special assessment and increases to the annual assessment are only allowed if the property financials have been managed prudently.  Since they amditted that they failed to do their due diligence when the purchased the bankrupt block of business, prudent does not seem to apply here.  

In addition, the contract states that written complaints will be acknowledged in writing within 20 business days of receipt.  As of today, they have not responded to my initial letter and so technically are in default on the contract.  The provision goes on to state that the formal response must be provided within 60 business days and during that time, the company is not allowed to report any negative information to any consumer reporting agency.  

This did generate a response from Cookie Bodison, who was forwarding my communication to the "research" department.  Supposedly, I will receive some type of response in 7-10 days.

Interestingly enough, I have not received any calls regarding the SA not being paid, but I am probably toward the end of their very long list of people to call...


----------



## Blackwhat

*Rick andjenn answer*

Thanks to Rickandjenn By accident I have come across the perfect question. rickand jenn's message somehow made me think. If we are all subject to the expenses of those in default then wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that if everyone else was in default I alone would be responsible for the debt and obligations of the entire 4000 plus member association. Can anyone believe that a responible individual would have delighted in buying into such a deal. Is this association for real? Is the Celebrity VP Mr Lewis for real? Please pass this and Ricks message on.
Blackwhat


----------



## Blackwhat

*Can you provide address's for BB's mentioned*

I would like to send a message to one or two of the BBs you mentioned.  Blackwhat  





rickandjenn said:


> Like all of you, this special assessment infuriates me.  I am very frustrated and a little mad at myself for being suckered in by Prefered Equities.
> 
> I have written to Celebrity Resorts, the BBB for FL and HI, and the AG for FL and HI.  No real response from anyone yet...
> 
> I also posted on Celebrity Resorts "contact us" form.  I stated that in reviewing my contract from PE's, there is not provision for a special assessment and increases to the annual assessment are only allowed if the property financials have been managed prudently.  Since they amditted that they failed to do their due diligence when the purchased the bankrupt block of business, prudent does not seem to apply here.
> 
> In addition, the contract states that written complaints will be acknowledged in writing within 20 business days of receipt.  As of today, they have not responded to my initial letter and so technically are in default on the contract.  The provision goes on to state that the formal response must be provided within 60 business days and during that time, the company is not allowed to report any negative information to any consumer reporting agency.
> 
> This did generate a response from Cookie Bodison, who was forwarding my communication to the "research" department.  Supposedly, I will receive some type of response in 7-10 days.
> 
> Interestingly enough, I have not received any calls regarding the SA not being paid, but I am probably toward the end of their very long list of people to call...


----------



## jlr10

rickandjenn said:


> This did generate a response from Cookie Bodison, who was forwarding my communication to the "research" department.



I had correspondence with Cookie Bodison at Celebrity in regards to our Hanalei Bay ownership.  She responded to "Mr. Robinson."  She provided  no help, only stated she had no idea who we were unless I provided them with their account number, which was what I was requesting in the first place.  Anyway...I responded to her email  and also stated I was "Mrs. Robinson."  She sent another reply to "Mr. Robinson."  When called on it her only response was "Sorry for the typo."  Once is a typo, twice is someone who is overworked or just doesn't care.  From the tone of the emails I vote for the latter.  Good luck.  It seems like you are going to need it.


----------



## rachel1998

I just went to look at my weeks I have deposited with RCI and my week at White Sands has been deleted from my available weeks. I will call RCI tomorrow. Has anyone else who hasn't paid the special assessment have this happen to them?


----------



## JeffW

I was wondering if they would try to do that...


----------



## rachel1998

What should I do now. I paid my MF months ago and deposited my week with RCI. Don't I have the right to use my week. RCI probably already  exchanged my week with someone. That person might have used the week already. That doesn't seem right that a last minute letter giving us a month to pay a SA would be legal.


----------



## JeffW

That brings up a very interesting situation.  Assuming the situation rachel1998 described, is it right that they would allow an RCI exchanger to occupy your unit, but not you?  

I would think to avoid situations like this, it should be RCI's policy to not allow previous deposits (valid at the time of the deposit) to be subsequently revoked.  Otherwise you get into unfair situations like this.

Jeff


----------



## DK09

*rci weeks*

looks like celebrity is starting to play some dirty pool.
Comes down to the fact that you paid your maintenance fee but you can not use your weeks unless you pay, a catch 22, which puts them in a good position to get your money for the s.a.  I still wouldn't pay.
keep us updated
IF you already paid your maintenance fee and they won't let you use your week, they owe you the maintenance fee back.


----------



## JeffW

What I posed to RCI in an email:

_I have a general space banking question.  For an owned week, suppose the resort's annual fees are up to date, and the unit is banked with RCI.  Subsequently, the resort starts a special assesement fee.  I understand that the resort will likely not allow further deposits with RCI unless this fee is paid.
However, does anything happen with previously-deposited banked weeks?  Can the resort cancel the spacebank previously done?  _

I'll see if they provide a real answer.


----------



## rachel1998

I will call RCI tomorrow and ask that very question. I am really angry at this. This is blackmail. I still have no intention of paying the money.


----------



## Blackwhat

*Special Assessment*

If you review the special assessment line items you will note that all of the five or six items listed refer to bad bebt of one sort or another. The one that really gets me is the one that refers to "projected additional deficit" in the amount of one million plus dollars. Who is doing all the projecting and what happens if it is incorrect. Do we get a refund. That would be a laugh. What happens to the hotel income that they will be raking in when many owners fail to pay. They have probably collected the annual dues from many members and the hotel receipts should cover the assessment short fall. They at the least owe the members aa explanation much more detailed than that provided in that mickey mouse letter which accomanied the SA billing. 
Management has failed miserably in its duty to manage the financial affairs of the membership by not getting the bad debt off the books over the years.
Blackwhat


----------



## DK09

*real estate taxes*

could someone help me out with the real estate tax amount for celebrity waikiki
In the proposed budget they sent with our maintenance fee 2008, they list real estate taxes as $150,000.00 for the year.   If I go to the web site for city and county of honolulu public access for property tax information they show the property taxes are $26,000.00     THe resort is assessed at 2,102,000.00.   Where is the other 124,000.00 from ??


http://www.honolulupropertytax.com/...bmnu=Values&pin=260210290000&cp=1&tp=2&Data1=


----------



## DK09

*celebrity tax listing*

don't know if this matters but they are listed on the tax rolls as a hotel and resort apartment


----------



## Blackwhat

*Hotel and Resort*

That is great detective work if correct. In California the property tax is usually about 1.15 percent of the purchase price and then goes up about 2 percent per year. 
I do not have any idea of the value of the White Sands property but if the same ratio were applied as in California 26,000 dollars in tax would put the value of White Sands at about $2,260,869. (thats 2 million plus change)
On the other hand if the budget figures are correct then the value of the property would come to about ten million dollars based in California's rates. Not being familiar with Hawaiian real estate that is about as far as I can go. 
BlackwhatThe disclosure statement we received on signing our contract specifically states that it is a Hotel and resort apartment as opposed to a condo project. Blackwhat


----------



## DK09

*budget figures*

It scares me to think that they have been charging us for property taxes on what they think the place is worth and not on what the actual and legal tax assessment and tax bill are.   By the way the resort is now late in payment and thus has accrued additional interest and penalties.


----------



## Blackwhat

*property tax question*

DK, I will forward your input to RICO in Hawaii. I have looked at the web site you mentioned and find the info very strange compared to our billings for property taxes over the past several years. I now have a Case number and hopefully that will expidite their interest. Blackwhat


----------



## rickandjenn

Well, I heard back from the AG and BBB today.  Neither feel that they can help, based on our original contract.  I am still waiting to get a formal response from Celebrity, but with the BBB's unwillingness to intervene, this does not look good.  

The grace period is up on Tuesday...


----------



## Blackwhat

*see DK09 message regarding taxes*

You need to read up on the web site posted by dk09 this date and check the property tax records that imply that we may be on to something regarding inconsistancies within the budget proposals over the past several years..


----------



## DK09

*office of consumer protection*

Has anyone filed a complaint with the office of consumer protection in hawaii?
Could be another way as celebrity has been very deceptive with a lot of things and also they will no longer let us use our time through the end of the contract-even though we paid our maintenance fee
I know some have filed complaints with Rico but didn't know about the OCP-go to their website, sounds like a very powerful tool for us 

http://hawaii.gov/dcca/areas/ocp/consumer_complaint/


----------



## rickandjenn

As "owners" aren't we privy to all of the tax information on file in HI?  I did try to find the tax information on HI's property tax site, but there is no information provided.  I will call tomorrow and see if I get anywhere...


----------



## rickandjenn

Yes and I have  not had any response...  I did get responses from the AG and BBB in FL.  (see previous post...)


----------



## DK09

*tax info*



rickandjenn said:


> As "owners" aren't we privy to all of the tax information on file in HI?  I did try to find the tax information on HI's property tax site, but there is no information provided.  I will call tomorrow and see if I get anywhere...




go to the site previously listed or here it is again

http://www.honolulupropertytax.com/...bmnu=Values&pin=260210290000&cp=1&tp=2&Data1=

it is the city and county tax site and lists assessed values and tax details from 2001 to present.


----------



## Blackwhat

DK09 said:


> go to the site previously listed or here it is again
> 
> http://www.honolulupropertytax.com/...bmnu=Values&pin=260210290000&cp=1&tp=2&Data1=
> 
> it is the city and county tax site and lists assessed values and tax details from 2001 to present.



In addition to the property tax question I would like an explanation of how we needed $59,000 for compuer and software expense. It might be due to a network required at the hotel desk but still deserves an answer.
If the property tax question proves to be what most of us think it does then we might think about a restraining order on Celebrity and the Assoc. from pursing collections prior to an explanation. Blackwhat


----------



## DK09

*Queen Emma Land Lease*

Does anyone have any ideas on how to find out what Celebrity pays each year for the land lease (Not the amount on the maintenance fee bill ) I am assuming it is with the Queen Emma Foundation.


----------



## Blackwhat

*lease expense*

I suggest a letter to the Queen Emma Land Co.
1099 Alakea St. Ste 100
Honolulu, Hi  96813

As a member indicate you are concerned with the amount in proposed budget and would like verification.


----------



## Blackwhat

*Another Budget Question*

I have to wonder about the revenue collected for Rental and Other income, At $62,590 that comes to about $172 a night if one unit was rented each night of the year. The question that needs to be answered is how many weeks or nights are rented out of the 1000 unsold units and how are these rents allocated in relation to the other rents collected.
I guess we are getting down to the fact that we are all suspicious of Celebrities ability to be trusted.

PS The property tax inconsistancy question has been mailed to RICO with supporting documentation.
Blackwhat


----------



## DK09

*questions*

There are so many questions about how celebrity/white sands has been doing business the past few years, particularly with finances.  I think we should all start posting/listing them, see if we can do some investigation.  someone make up a master list and we can use it to dispute the s.a. when we get the next bill with the 25 late fee added on.  At this stage we can't let out guard down.  I have an email to Queen Emma Land Co. asking for info and will see what that brings up.


----------



## Blackwhat

*FTC complaint*

I was disappointed when I called the FTC this AM.  After giving her my reference number the gal I talked with implied they will only act after they have determined a trend regarding a specific issue. The more people complaining the more likely a trend will be discovered. She referred me to the BBB and Attorney General in Hawaii. I mentioned that I thought the possibility of mail fraud existed but she was not impressed. 
Possibly if all of us filed a new complaint with the FTC on the same day and specifically stuck to the 2008 or 2009 budget and billing regarding property taxes and the difference between them we might carry some weight. She also mentioned that since Celebrity has not responded to my letters I should contact an attorney. Yeh!  If I enjoyed paying attorneys fees I would have resorted to that a long time ago.
Filing a complaint is fairly easy since the form is available on the web site.
The important thing is that the complaints are received on a timely bases and refer specifically to the same company and the same issue. Then hope that all the complaints arrive at the same desk on the same day and about the same time. 
I wonder if it might pay to ask Celebrity why the difference in billing and proposed budget. The problem is that we will probably not get an explanation since they do not respond to the simplest of questions.
The same letter could be sent to the Attorney General in Hawaii.
Blackwhat,


----------



## Blackwhat

*Re: letter from Celebrity*

Hello D.    
Yesterday I received a letter from Ann Thompson in Orlando. One and 1/2 pages of much to do about nothing. In it she makes a statement that should the resort need to be closed prematurely you will be offered your week at another Celebrity Resorts location. That is what she also told Mr. Dawson at the Orlando Sentinal but that was never mentioned to the other members to my knowledge. 
In  response to my request for a copy of the by-laws I will need to send a check for $2.75 to cover cost. That is certainly reasonable but can I trust them to send the documents once I have paid for them? They may be out of business by then and it has taken over a month to answer my first letter. 
Her main emphasis seems to be on  renewing the lease with Queen Emma (who cares!!) and encouraging members to book their stay prior to April 30. However in the same paragraph she says they are unable to accept any reservations made beyond April 30. That seems to be a conflicting statement.
She does state that, I quote:
"The by-laws inform all members of the Association of Members of White Sands Waikiki Resort Club's (The Association) rights to adjust the fees to meet the maintenance requirements for the Resort."
In the billing for the special assessment all I saw was reference to bad debt and projected deficit.
There was mention of severance pay for employees. That would imply to me that Celebrity has knowledge that employees will not be around thru the end of the year. If they are should we get a refund? 
Should we get a refund if the projected deficit is less than expected. That whole bill is an affront to the common sense and intelligence of the members.
We deserve an explanation based on common sense.and Celebrity does not address them. They have a procedure they follow and I guess one of the policies is not to answer questions but to threaten financial penalties.
John     Black-what


----------



## DK09

*tax bill*

For anyone keeping tabs on Celebrity/White Sands-Waikiki....
The overdue tax bill is now an extra $402.32 due to penalties and interest.
As of today they still have not paid it.  It is not right that they should be expecting us to pay for their very poor financial planning.


----------



## DK09

*deficit reduction*

Did anyone notice that on the proposed budget for 2008 (mf) there is a charge on it for deficit reduction assessment which "is to cure an outstanding deficit from prior years".  So how do they charge us again on the special assessment for operating deficit, bad debt, etc.?


----------



## Blackwhat

*Is bad debt  due to developer?*

The developer to my knowledge owns over 1000 units. Has he paid the more than $695,000 he owes due to the special assessment billing. Lets write a letter to Ann Thompson and Mr. Lewis requesting an answer. If the developer has paid the $695,000 plus change why hasn't the management company paid the entire tax bill or even one half of it in order to avoid the penalties for being late. The tax bill only amounts to three and 3/4 percent of the $695000. It does not make sense that we would be responsible for paying for the bad debt and/or arrears of the developer.
PS: Are the developer and Celebrity one and the same?


----------



## rickandjenn

*Division of Florida Condominiums, Timeshares, and Mobile Homes*

It would appear that the AG for Florida sent my complaint to the above department, which is part of the Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation.  According to the letter, they have opened an investigation file on my behalf, with a complaint # 2009016569.  

They do state that their authority is somewhat limited, but they will research...


----------



## DK09

*letter*

glad to hear that you at least got a response.I hope for a good outcome...
I am in the process of sending a copy of all my correspondence to the AG in Hawaii, the dept of justice in wisconsin and a few other places so hopefully someone will take a serious look at this.
keep us posted


----------



## Blackwhat

*encouraging*

Keep those cards and letters flowing
Blackwhat


----------



## DK09

*tax bill*

The tax bill for the resort on 2-2-09 was $ 12,940.02	
As of 4-4-09 the tax bill is now              $ 14,123.31
a difference of .....
.......someone else do the math!
Guess who has to pay?!


----------



## DK09

*letter from anne thompson*

so did anyone else get a letter today from Anne Thompson re the special assessment?
Received mine today.  
points
-the by-laws inform all members rights to adjust the fees to meet the maintenance requirments for the resort (who is this board of directors)
-You are a members until Dec 31, 2009 and thereby obligated to all fees and interest.....of course they can break the contract by not allowing us use of the property through the alloted time
-no reservatios can be made beyond 5-1-08 due to depleting fundsl  we encourage all owers to book their stay prior to 5-30-09 (doesn't comprehend that taking vacation time and booking flights is pretty impossible at such short notice-much less the fact that they don't have that many weeks available at the same time for owners) or you can deposit your time with RCI  (only if you are a member and pay your SA)
she also sent me my bill back and a copy of my assurance certificates.


----------



## DK09

Blackwhat said:


> Hello D.
> Yesterday I received a letter from Ann Thompson in Orlando. One and 1/2 pages of much to do about nothing. In it she makes a statement that should the resort need to be closed prematurely you will be offered your week at another Celebrity Resorts location. That is what she also told Mr. Dawson at the Orlando Sentinal but that was never mentioned to the other members to my knowledge.
> In  response to my request for a copy of the by-laws I will need to send a check for $2.75 to cover cost. That is certainly reasonable but can I trust them to send the documents once I have paid for them? They may be out of business by then and it has taken over a month to answer my first letter.
> Her main emphasis seems to be on  renewing the lease with Queen Emma (who cares!!) and encouraging members to book their stay prior to April 30. However in the same paragraph she says they are unable to accept any reservations made beyond April 30. That seems to be a conflicting statement.
> She does state that, I quote:
> "The by-laws inform all members of the Association of Members of White Sands Waikiki Resort Club's (The Association) rights to adjust the fees to meet the maintenance requirements for the Resort."
> In the billing for the special assessment all I saw was reference to bad debt and projected deficit.
> There was mention of severance pay for employees. That would imply to me that Celebrity has knowledge that employees will not be around thru the end of the year. If they are should we get a refund?
> Should we get a refund if the projected deficit is less than expected. That whole bill is an affront to the common sense and intelligence of the members.
> We deserve an explanation based on common sense.and Celebrity does not address them. They have a procedure they follow and I guess one of the policies is not to answer questions but to threaten financial penalties.
> John     Black-what



must have been the same basic letter I got, only she didn't offer a stay at any other celebrity resort


----------



## MARTIN59

*special assessment*

Hello,
I have only just discovered tis forum, and it is a relief I did.
I live in England and sought legal advise on the matter.
My worries went a lot further than just losing my annual maintenance for 2009 and interval,which I paid on time as always for the past 24 years.

Certainly not paying more money to be lost down some black hole and still no 
guarantee of a week at white sands.

The worst scenario is My wife and I could be refused entry yo the USA on arrival at customs, where we could be on the sytem as bad debtors. Worse still could be arrested. So Ineed to know if they could do that?

A letter was sent to the CEO of celebrity Resorts in Orlando, saying we would not be paying any S.A. and the company were "IN BREACH OF CONTRACT"
If we were not allowed to have our requested week for 2009, then we would like a refund( NO chance of that I know ). We would be sueing them otherwise.

Also we have sent a letter with copies of celebrities demands to our credit card company whom we paid the 2009 maintenace with. We have asked them to fight our corner.

We are willing to send letters to apropriate agencies if it helps the group.


Martin


----------



## Blackwhat

*Welcome aboard Martin*

Glad to have you join the group Martin. As you can see there are a lot of messages posted over the past couple of months on this thread regarding White Sands.
Regarding your situation and customs I am not familiar with the
possibilities but I do not think you could be arrested in the USA for bad debt.
Some of us have written to the Attorney General of the States of Florida and Hawaii. There is some question as to the reliability of the figures on the special assessment billing plus some of the other expenditures on the proposed budget for 2009.
You may have noticed that all the spewcioal assessment items refer to bad debt and or projected deficit.
Address for Hawaii:
Office of Attorney General
425 Queesn St. 
Honolulu, Hawaii 96813

Regards, Black-what


----------



## MARTIN59

Thanks Blackwhat,
whom should I address the letter to?
in the AG's office.

Regards 
Martin


----------



## Blackwhat

*For Martin*

Attorney Generals name is Mark Bennett.

You may be able to find out more by going to www.Hawaii.gov
Blackwhat


----------



## mxsenior

DK09 said:


> My problem with this whole thing is that there are a lot of interesting and hidden things going on.  they changed the name of the resort from Celebrity Resorts  to White Sands Development LLC in July 2008--did they tell anyone? no
> http://hbe.ehawaii.gov/documents/business.html?fileNumber=27213C5&view=documents
> 
> Also the Business Registration Division in Hawaii shows "this business is not in good standing"  problem there
> http://hbe.ehawaii.gov/documents/business.html?fileNumber=27213C5&view=documents
> 
> our original certificates -signed and dated 2-11-80 were for 28 years.
> which would have left us done on 2-11-08.  It now states 12-31-09 and the letter wants to extend this time to 3-2010.  they are just looking for someone to pay to keep the resort going so that they can -as rumor has it- remodel in May and open up as a nightly rental hotel/resort
> 
> we are not paying and will send a letter to them in March listing our reasons.
> 
> "something is rotten in the state of Denmark"



I bought into this resort from the original owner. I have the original owner certificate which is dated 3/18/80 for a term of 28 years. Which means it should have been done a year ago. However the certificate they issued me after I purchased from the original owner says expiration is 31 dec. 09.  How can they extend my time. Why would they do it? Something is fishy.


----------



## Blackwhat

*dispute assessment*

If you are a RTU owner you should write a letter to the address on the rear of the billing statement for the special assessment and inform them that you dispute the reliability of the listed items and until you are given a satisfactory explanation and verification of the items listed you can not in good conscience put good money after bad (or something to that effect). This may hold off a collection agency since an amount in dispute is not something they normally want to deal with since it can involve Federal agencies when not handled according to the law.
Everyone should do it without question, as it will give notice to the collection agency when the time comes and you send them a copy of your dispute letter and they receive a ton of them in total from you and everyone else. 
Black-what


----------



## rickandjenn

*Address for Division of Fl Condo, Timeshares & Mobile Homes*

Hi, I have had a couple of requests for the address of the department that the FL AG sent my complaint lette to, so here it is:

Bureau of Compliance
400 W Robinson St
Suite N 908
Orlando, FL  32801-1736

Shelia.fields@dbpr.state.fl.us

My complaint # is 2009016569.  It might help if we tie all the complaints together...


----------



## Blackwhat

*ARDA warning*

I wrote a letter to ARDA (American Resort Development Assoc.) back on March 13, 2009 in the form of a complaint against Celebrity Resorts. To date I have not received a reply.
Yesterday I perused the Celebrity web site and came across a list of Celebrity brass including pictures and a brief resume. 
The reason I have not received a reply is possibly due to the
fact that C. Graig Lewis the Vice President at Celebrity serves in a few official positions at ARDA. He has probably been made aware of my complaint letter by now.
Black-what


----------



## DK09

*conflict*



Blackwhat said:


> I wrote a letter to ARDA (American Resort Development Assoc.) back on March 13, 2009 in the form of a complaint against Celebrity Resorts. To date I have not received a reply.
> Yesterday I perused the Celebrity web site and came across a list of Celebrity brass including pictures and a brief resume.
> The reason I have not received a reply is possibly due to the
> fact that C. Graig Lewis the Vice President at Celebrity serves in a few official positions at ARDA. He has probably been made aware of my complaint letter by now.
> Black-what



Sounds like a bit of a conflict of interest to me...


----------



## gumimat

*Celebrity - how to pressure them*

There is another way we can pressure Celebrity.  We can post reviews for ALL their resorts telling other people what they have done to us in Hawaii.  This way we can warn others who may want to stay at or buy a Celebrity timeshare.  If we post enough comments - we can have a strong impact on their efforts to sell other timeshare units.  We must do this to make sure the word is out about Celebrity.  They changed their name in Hawaii to avoid the negative publicity about their doings there.


----------



## Blackwhat

*Celebrity Threads*

It is a great idea to post complaints of Celebrity on their Resorts threads. However there are so many members that are probably not aware that threads exist. In looking around the web I have found a few forums and have posted a few messages.
Possibly we should post on this tug site the address of the forum whenever we find a thread within a forum that we find may be useful; or at least directions on how to get to the forum.

I have found on a couple of forums you can log in as a guest by giving your name and e-mail address and nothing more to post a message. search for "Celebrity Resorts" on the web and select Timeshare discussion forums: redweek.com. Then select timeshare companies. I set up a message beforehand and copied to clipboard so the same message could be "pasted" whenever I hit a forum that looks interesting. I am off to a slow start but I like the idea of not creating a new message every time.
**** The following is a E-mail I sent to Ann Thompson today to keep her on her toes. Do likewise! 
I still have not received the copy of the by laws I sent for.  Also have you looked into my request for a copy of the annual audit and information regarding the developers payment of the special assessment.and his annual dues? Also what is the status of the possible renewing of the lease at Waikiki. 
Please keep me informed
Blackwhat


----------



## Blackwhat

*White Sands Closing?*



Blackwhat said:


> It is a great idea to post complaints of Celebrity on their Resorts threads. However there are so many members that are probably not aware that threads exist. In looking around the web I have found a few forums and have posted a few messages.
> Possibly we should post on this tug site the address of the forum whenever we find a thread within a forum that we find may be useful; or at least directions on how to get to the forum.
> 
> I have found on a couple of forums you can log in as a guest by giving your name and e-mail address and nothing more to post a message. search for "Celebrity Resorts" on the web and select Timeshare discussion forums: redweek.com. Then select timeshare companies. I set up a message beforehand and copied to clipboard so the same message could be "pasted" whenever I hit a forum that looks interesting. I am off to a slow start but I like the idea of not creating a new message every time.
> **** The following is a E-mail I sent to Ann Thompson today to keep her on her toes. Do likewise!
> I still have not received the copy of the by laws I sent for.  Also have you looked into my request for a copy of the annual audit and information regarding the developers payment of the special assessment.and his annual dues? Also what is the status of the possible renewing of the lease at Waikiki.
> Please keep me informed
> Blackwhat



Latest word I understand is that Celebrity will close the White Sands Waikiki resort to members on May 3, 2009. If this is true then I wonder if Celebrity will rent the units as a hotel until they get their ducks in a row. I wonder how much the developer is in arrears since his share of the Special assessment would be over $695,000. Does the "PROJECTED Deficit" remain at $1,150,000 if they close? That was some projection they made with no explanation. Are we entitled to an accounting of the funds?Blackwhat


----------



## JeffW

Blackwhat said:


> Latest word I understand is that Celebrity will close the White Sands Waikiki resort to members on May 3, 2009...


3

If true, will owners who paid the S/A will get their money back?


----------



## Blackwhat

I doubt that anyone will get their money back unless a law suit is brought. 
Here are some e-mail address's FYI.  
Craig Lewis   ccl@celebrityresorts.com
Jeff Ingram (VP)  jeff.ingram@celebrityresorts.com
Reg Marvin (area manager)  reg.marvin@celebrityresorts.com

Thought some of you might want to ask some questions.

Blackwhat


----------



## rickandjenn

Thank you for the additional email addresses.  I have sent each of them an email with my previous requests for details about the by-laws, taxes, pending resort closure and basic busines practices.  I have also starting searching the internet for attorney options in hopes of finding a resource for a class actions suit.  Admittedly, this is an area that I have no experience with, so I am unsure of what will come of my efforts.  

I did receive my 2nd notice today that stated if my payment was still outstanding 60 days past the original due date, my account would go to collections.  I have asked for the name of the company that they will utilize for collections, so that I can start copying them on my requests for information.   They should know what they are getting into...


----------



## ebat

I just discovered this forum and have the same issues - 15 year RTU is up Dec 09.  We have not paid this assessment and are certain this would be good money down the drain.  
Does anyone have an idea how to obtain the entire ownership contact info? There must  be a lawyer or two in the group who has as least considered a class action


----------



## Blackwhat

*Collection agency*

Back in 2003-2004 they used Pinnacle Recovery Inc. of Carlsbad, California. I was just looking over the paper work from the billing of that time and notice they state "Regarding White Sands". They never explicitly state the full name of the debtor. ie: Assoc. Members White Sands Resort Club.
Celebrity may not use the same collection agency this time.
I really am confused as to who we are supposed to owe these funds to. Celebrity or the Assoc. of Members. They seem to be one and the same and controlled by the only two members on the board who happen to be officials of the Celebrity Company. The two members constitute a quorum I guess! It appears that they have taken the liberty to do what they see fit to pad their own pockets under the guise of an LLC and simply not answer to the other three thousand plus members. Nice set up for these kinds of people. Blackwhat


----------



## Blackwhat

*Member listing*



ebat said:


> I just discovered this forum and have the same issues - 15 year RTU is up Dec 09.  We have not paid this assessment and are certain this would be good money down the drain.
> Does anyone have an idea how to obtain the entire ownership contact info? There must  be a lawyer or two in the group who has as least considered a class action



If you are thinking of getting a listing of other members it is difficult. I tried several years ago and was told that in the interest of security (protecting names and Addresses of other s)  they would have to do any mailings. The postage would be I would guess close to $1500 and Celebrity would charge for the service. Legally I understand they must provide access to other members but I don't know the legal limitations.
Class action suit against Celebrity as a management company for lack of fiduciary care or whatever else we can come up with would be very reasonable and I would be interested in exploring that from a cost standpoint. Blackwhat


----------



## unhappy at Waikiki

*Unhappy about special assessment at White Sands Waikiki*

Looking for other owners of White Sands Waikiki who have been assessed an extra $675 after paying their maintenance fee for 2009 for mutual support and action against this illegal special assessment. I was not notified of any special meeting of the board to discuus any special  assessment. I also wonder about the composition of the Board whether they have been duly elected owners or are they serving Celebrity Resorts.


----------



## Blackwhat

*Billing Notice*



rickandjenn said:


> Thank you for the additional email addresses.  I have sent each of them an email with my previous requests for details about the by-laws, taxes, pending resort closure and basic busines practices.  I have also starting searching the internet for attorney options in hopes of finding a resource for a class actions suit.  Admittedly, this is an area that I have no experience with, so I am unsure of what will come of my efforts.
> 
> I did receive my 2nd notice today that stated if my payment was still outstanding 60 days past the original due date, my account would go to collections.  I have asked for the name of the company that they will utilize for collections, so that I can start copying them on my requests for information.   They should know what they are getting into...



Have you all ever noticed the letter that accompanies the annual bill? Each one is almost a carbon copy of the prior years letter. Give the people at Celebrity a copy machine and they are in business. That is what we have for a management company I guess. With two people on the Board making the decisions and both related to the interest of the developer rather than the members this association should be holding a meeting to explore the opinionss of all the members. And as is done in special meetings of the board the meeting should be held over a period of days and done over the internet. The first order of business would be to vote for a minumum five person board and the second would be to cancel the special assessment until a qualified management team could be hired to perform management duties. The developer would have to come up with the money to handle this or file for bankruptcy. Celebrity seems to be developer and manager and board member. A bit of a CONFLICT OF INTEREST I would say.  
Blackwhat


----------



## somerville

[Thanks for helping - I merged the threads. - DeniseM Moderator]

You will find your fellow owners on this thread:
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91207


----------



## lsk

unhappy at Waikiki said:


> Looking for other owners of White Sands Waikiki who have been assessed an extra $675 after paying their maintenance fee for 2009 for mutual support and action against this illegal special assessment. I was not notified of any special meeting of the board to discuus any special  assessment. I also wonder about the composition of the Board whether they have been duly elected owners or are they serving Celebrity Resorts.



I have sent a letter to the AG in Hawaii, FL, and a certified letter to the Scottsdale address of Celebrity saying I'm disputing the assessment. I sent a copy of all my letters to the AG's and a copy of the letter that I sent to the billing company of my reasons for not paying. I got a second bill yesterday. I am willing to be a party to a class action suit against Celebrity if we can find an attorney to handle it for a reasonable cost. I don't think we can expect any cash settlements so we will have to pay attorney fees. I was not notified of any special board meetings either. If enough of us don't pay they will have no choice but to file for bankrupcy. If they take us to collections they will still have to file for bankrupcy, they would only get a small percentage of the assessment fee collected. If and when they send us to collections we can send a letter to each of the credit reporting agencies telling them we are in dispute with Celebrity and it will not hurt our rating. We would have to send a copy of the letter to the collection agency and they can't pester you any more! Let me know if anyone finds an attorney!


----------



## Blackwhat

*Thoughts on closure date of May3rd*

In the event that White Sands closes on May 3, two things become obvious. The lease expense will still have to be paid as will property taxes. Some of the other items listed in the annual projected budget could probably be deleted and others could be greatly reduced in cost.
There should be an accounting by the management company (Celebrity) as to the current balance in the association's bank account. 

I doubt that anyone will get their money back unless a law suit is brought. 
Here are some e-mail address's FYI. 
Craig Lewis ccl@celebrityresorts.com
Jeff Ingram (VP) jeff.ingram@celebrityresorts.com
Reg Marvin (area manager) reg.marvin@celebrityresorts.com

Thought some of you might want to ask some questions.

Blackwhat


----------



## qa-Russ

*ARDA - Ethics Officer*

After a considerable wait, I have finally heard from ARDA.
The Ethics Officer required additional information to consider the issue before submitting complaint form to me.
I replied this morning.
I will post when I have heard something back from her.
Russ


----------



## DK09

*conflict*



qa-Russ said:


> After a considerable wait, I have finally heard from ARDA.
> The Ethics Officer required additional information to consider the issue before submitting complaint form to me.
> I replied this morning.
> I will post when I have heard something back from her.
> Russ



Did you happen to read the post from Blackwhat on April 7 re craig lewis from celebrity, he also serves on the board for ARDA.


----------



## zaphod

Been following this forum for a few weeks and have written to the suggested contacts to complain - got a reply from the Regulated Ind. Complaints Office today saying 'case processing time can vary based on the amount of complaints received.'  Also received updated bill - now $725.79.  If I dont pay I may never be able to land in the USA again but even if we all paid up whats to stop them demanding more? I haven't stayed in Hawaii since purchasing whilst en-route to NZ 25 yrs ago (each year Ive had to write more than once asking for my floating week dates to bank with RCI). As yet I havent 2009's and dont know if its worth asking....


----------



## JeffW

Blackwhat said:


> In the event that White Sands closes on May 3, two things become obvious...



Semi-related to this, if it's determined White Sands can no longer operate as a timeshare, do they have the right to keep it open for rentals?  My guess would be that if they want to assume the risk (and expenses) of keeping it open, they are entitled to any of the rental profits.  However in this case, if they still want to pursue collections against t/s owners, it could get very tricky for them to show they need the money, if they are still operationg without it.

Jeff


----------



## rachel1998

I just received a second bill from Celebrity Resorts. I called and spoke to a nice lady in billing. She told me the resort is closing December 31,2009. I said then why would I pay this money for a SA if the resort is closing anyway. She did not have an answer to that. She said she would make a note on my account that I called. She said it would affect my credit if I did not pay. I said I didn't care that I wasn't going to buy anything anyway.


----------



## Blackwhat

*closing date*

Did the lady say closing date was 12/31/2009. That would mean it will remain open for the rest of the year. I haven't been able to get thru but guess I will try tomorrow to see if I get the same response. Blackwhat


----------



## JeffW

Wasn't the Dec date always mentioned as the resort closing date, but a separate May 1 (?) date given that owners could no longer reserve time after?  I thought was what let to a speculation that they might rent out units for the remainder of the year.

Jeff


----------



## Blackwhat

*closeing date reponse #2*

I was referring to Rachel1998's message that implies that she asked why would she pay spec. assessment if the place was closing 12/31/09. That is the date it would normally have closed and the special assessment payment would hopefully have provided her with a reservation. If the lady responed with a 12/31 date I would have told her I had heard it was closing early and that I would need a guarantee of some sort before I paid.
Like I have any intention of paying over $1400 plus air fair for a week with that outfit in those facilities. Blackwhat


----------



## rachel1998

She told me that the resort will close on December 31st. I told her why would I pay anymore money if the resort is closing. She said they need the money to keep the resort open until then. I told her they should have spent their money more carefully. She said she would note on my account that I called. She said I could make payments.


----------



## lsk

zaphod said:


> Been following this forum for a few weeks and have written to the suggested contacts to complain - got a reply from the Regulated Ind. Complaints Office today saying 'case processing time can vary based on the amount of complaints received.'  Also received updated bill - now $725.79.  If I dont pay I may never be able to land in the USA again but even if we all paid up whats to stop them demanding more? I haven't stayed in Hawaii since purchasing whilst en-route to NZ 25 yrs ago (each year Ive had to write more than once asking for my floating week dates to bank with RCI). As yet I havent 2009's and dont know if its worth asking....



There is no way you would not be allowed in the US because of this! The only way would be if you are a convicted felon! I am wondering if we just turn our "week" back in to Celebrity if that would make this assessment go away? It seems a lot of owners at White Sands have done this and we are being asked to pay for it! My week has been used for 2009. If anyone would like to go in on a class action suit, let me know!!


----------



## rachel1998

My deposited 2009 week with RCI was taken away from me. I already paid the MF for the year now I cannot use my week. That stinks.


----------



## Blackwhat

*Dispute recent bill*

Your recent bill with interest added should be disputed the same way as the original. In addition tell them to stop adding interest and billing you until an explanation is presented as to how the bill was arrived at. After all it does not take much more than an IDIOT to list five or six numbers and total them up to almost three million dollars and present them in the form of a bill. We are still paying Celebrity for their management of the White Sands? How can we stop it since they took over the board a long time ago and we did not realize what was going on?  Black-what


----------



## DK09

Blackwhat said:


> Your recent bill with interest added should be disputed the same way as the original. In addition tell them to stop adding interest and billing you until an explanation is presented as to how the bill was arrived at. After all it does not take much more than an IDIOT to list five or six numbers and total them up to almost three million dollars and present them in the form of a bill. We are still paying Celebrity for their management of the White Sands? How can we stop it since they took over the board a long time ago and we did not realize what was going on?  Black-what



I agree with sending in another dispute letter.....return receipt. (send a copy to the AG in Hawaii and the RICO in HAwaii-the more complaints they get the more likely they are to take it seriously) My guess is that most of us have time to use yet at this resort, whether it be a lost week with RCI or just not able to use because the resort is no longer taking reservations -----also known as closing.  That is to our advantage as they are breaking the contract by not allowing us use of the time as stated in the assurance certificate (seven consecutive nights, yearly, until 12-31-2009).  I say if they won't allow us our use of time that they refund the maintenance fee for any week that they will no longer honor.   Still most important to work on the financial aspect as they are not willing to provide anyone with any information and things found out so far don't add up (property taxes). Is there anyway to find out how much the actual utilities are at the resort???


----------



## leehamilton16

*Assessments and Celebrity Steamboat Springs*

I'm the co-plaintiff, with my husband, in a lawsuit against 10 Celebrity defendants that's in federal district court in Denver.  I've been looking at discussion about the special assessments at Waikiki.  We refused to pay our special assessment a few years ago, mostly because there was no accounting of how prior assessments had been spent, what exactly would be done with the special assessment and how much money was needed.  After many requests to the developers/managers/board that went unanswered we stopped paying the regular assessments, and in turn, of course, lost access to our unit.  We started logging calls from Celebrity's collection agency (Concord) and it was well over 80 calls.  They've finally stopped bothering us as they have bigger fish to fry with us now.

Credit reports show that we' are behind on a recurring loan payment on property.  Of course this is inaccurate and misleading---makes it sound as if we've stopped making payments on a home loan.  I tried talking to the credit agency and sending in an explanation in their online system.  We were not able to get the credit reporting agency to change it.  I believe the characterization of these unpaid assessments is the credit agency's limited categories, not really the way it was reported.      

Lee
leehamilton16@gmail.com


----------



## EileenSRN

Thank God I don't have a unit at White Sands, but I do have 2 other Celebrity units at Brigantine and Orlando. I was trying to see if I could find property transfer records to get other owners names (I know, RTU doesn't have a deed conveyed-but I was just fishing). What I came across was this website. Search under White Sands, White Sands Waikki Resort Club and Celebrity Resorts. I used a start date of 06/01/1980. You might want to go back further. Interesting results; unfortunately it looks like it'll cost a few bucks to get copies of the transactions. When I stayed there in 2000, it was Ramada Vacation Club. This might give you other trails to follow. Good luck with you're fight!
Eileen


http://bocweb.dlnrbc.hawaii.gov/boc/


----------



## DK09

*info*



EileenSRN said:


> Thank God I don't have a unit at White Sands, but I do have 2 other Celebrity units at Brigantine and Orlando. I was trying to see if I could find property transfer records to get other owners names (I know, RTU doesn't have a deed conveyed-but I was just fishing). What I came across was this website. Search under White Sands, White Sands Waikki Resort Club and Celebrity Resorts. I used a start date of 06/01/1980. You might want to go back further. Interesting results; unfortunately it looks like it'll cost a few bucks to get copies of the transactions. When I stayed there in 2000, it was Ramada Vacation Club. This might give you other trails to follow. Good luck with you're fight!
> Eileen
> 
> 
> http://bocweb.dlnrbc.hawaii.gov/boc/



thanks for the site.   there seems to be a lot of info on it which will take me a day or two to peruse!!


----------



## DK09

*Celebrity*

Don't know how many are following the thread for Hanalei Bay on Kauai, but check out this link regarding their situation or follow the thread....

http://www.hanaleibayresortowners.com/


----------



## Idaho

[Spam deleted and spammer banned. - DeniseM Moderator]


----------



## MARTIN59

*further letters*

we have received our 2nd demand for $725.79
Also had a reply from Anne Thompson, which did not answer our question, just a circular, no more than we expected. But in the letter it states ,

"Actually it is the by-laws that informs all members of the Associaton of Members of White Sands Waikiki Resort Club's ( The Association ) of the rights to adjust the fees to meet the maintenance requirements for the resort.

Just for interest, we have been in contact with our credit card company, and as we paid our maintenance with our card, we are asking them to fight for us. They have asked for a copy of the contract, as it is a blatant breach of contract by celebrity, to provide us with our week at White Sands.
Has anyone else tried this approach?

As we are in the UK there is  a Consumer Credit Act1974 (CCA74) which can be seen @ www.timeshare.org.uk/cca74.html  Maybe of help to someone.

Also we are constantly being phoned and asked if we wish to sell our timeshare. seems odd with all the baggage attatched to white Sands just now. Anyone else had similar interest?


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## Blackwhat

*credit card action*

I considered asking my credit card company for relief but read somewhere that you needed to do it within 60 days of payment and I felt I would have been too late. Good luck Martin. Blackwhat


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## DK09

*telephone calls*

We received pretty much the same letter from Anne Thompson.
the special assessment has nothing to do with maintenance of the resort----just very poor financial's.
As far as the telephone calls, we get those a lot too.  Celebrity probably sold the list of all our names to a timeshare sales place.   They in turn call everyone and ask to buy your timeshare.   You send them money and if they sell it, they will give you the money less their share for selling it.
Next time they call tell them to take you off their list.


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## qa-Russ

*ARDA complaint process*

To update, last week Wednesday ARDA did reply to my request for complaint form indicating there did not appear to be an ethics issue and directed me instead to Celebrity and some of the activities others have already undertaken. I replied immediately pointing out the 2009 MF assessment was sent out in late October at about 90% less then the MF required. If it weren't why would the Board need have a special assessment of $695 deemed necessary in January, only 3 months later?
This is an ethics issue. I requested forms again.
Today, with no reply from ARDA and no forms received I pursued my request again.
In addition, my request for minutes of the Board meeting approving the Special Assessment had results. I have a copy of the minutes through Anne Thompson, Services Analyst Manager, Celebrity. The meeting occured January 16 with Board members C.Craig Lewis and Jared Meyers participating.
My additional request for the Auditor's report substantiating the need for assessment has generated no reply.
I will post further when I have more.


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## JeffW

Thanks and keep us updated.


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## Blackwhat

*minutes of spec. meeting*

I too have a copy of the minutes regarding special assessment meeting. What a scam. Two officers of Celebrity (Lewis and Meyers) get together over the phone and decide to impose a special assessment including one million one hundred and fifty dollars of "projected deficits". I wonder where they got their crystal ball to make that projection. They certainly refuse to explain it to the majority of other members who have requested an explanation. 
Also Harper of the FBI did not take kindly to his name being passed around on the internet. I called my local FBI office and was told Honolulu would have jurisdiction. 
I am going to write them in regard to unexplained variance in property tax bill vs proposed 2008 and 2009 budgets. 
Suspected mail fraud.
Blackwhat


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## DK09

*meeting*

so what I am understanding is that no member of white sands was at this meeting that decided on the special assessment?  How did Meyers and Lewis come about being on the board? I don't ever remember voting for them or getting a proxy for them to vote in my place?  There are supposed to be members of white sands on the board according to the by-laws, or did Celebrity change that too!
I hope owners/members at other celebrity resorts aren't taken in by these guys.....


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## Blackwhat

*spec. assessment minutes*

According to the minutes, that is the conclusion I have come to. I do not have a copy of the by-laws but with two members working for Celebrity sitting on the board and supposedly qualifying as a quorum I imagine they can do as they please and figure it is legal. How they got on the board is a mystery to me. 
Blackwhat


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## Blackwhat

*lots of Luck*

I think you are right. They will get into a lot of trouble when that is broadcast all over.


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## DK09

*info*

I agree, they definitely do not want that info made available


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## rachel1998

How do we let people know that this is happening? We have to get it out there.


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## jlr10

DK09 said:


> so what I am understanding is that no member of white sands was at this meeting that decided on the special assessment?  How did Meyers and Lewis come about being on the board? I don't ever remember voting for them or getting a proxy for them to vote in my place?  There are supposed to be members of white sands on the board according to the by-laws, or did Celebrity change that too!
> I hope owners/members at other celebrity resorts aren't taken in by these guys.....



Lewis and Meyers were 'appointed' to the Hanalei Bay VOA board.  I wonder what will happen next....:annoyed:


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## Blackwhat

*Lewis and Meyers*

Ann should be back on Monday. As far as the Bulletin I don't know. Queen Emma folks may have an answer but regardless it looks like a real good stroke of luck to me.
Where did you get this?


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## Blackwhat

*Closure of White Sands Prematurely*

If you have tried to make a reservation at the White Sands Waikiki for anytime between now and the end of 2009 you have probably found that there is "NO AVAILABILITY" written all over your request. That seems to confirm that Celebrity Resorts has failed in it's management of the White Sands and needs to be fired. 
Since the board only consists of members working for Celebrity I do not see how this can be accomplished. Fortunately they will be closeing White Sands in a week or so and we should be getting a reevaluation of all the projections in the estimated budget and the special assessment. This of course will require another statement from Celebrity regarding the balance sheet and the members financial interest. Technically we are not an association. We are a bunch of Right To Use members. The management company is responsible for seeing that we get what we paid for and not for threatening us with special assessments because of their failure to act on members in default.
Do not hesitate to ask for a refund of your annual dues. Because of their failure to perform and their careless manipulation of finances many members have paid an additional unnecessary special assessment for which they may not receive a refund.
Blackwhat


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## Blackwhat

*found on another site*

Celebrity Resort Orlando - Power of Attorney Letter 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Celebrity owners, did you all get the letter regarding the power of attorney they want us to give Jared Meyers? According to the letter, by doing this, we will avoid a potential $200 increase over fees from last year. Increase? Our maintenance fees are already among the highest I've seen - especially for a resort in Orlando.

I showed the letter to an attorney friend because I was concerned that by signing this letter I am giving indefinite power of attorney to them to vote of things outside of just the matter at hand. He advised me that I could cross out the last half of the last sentence and replace it with an expiration date. You can also send them a letter at a later date revoking the power of attorney.

I then called member services and asked when they thought this matter would go to a vote, when the issue would be resolved thinking I would have the power of attorney expire after it was no longer necessary. At this point the cust service person said they would not accept a modified letter. I was then transferred to the legal department and waited on hold for approx. 20 minutes before I finally hung up.

What are you guys doing? I'm so tired of this place. First the special assessment and now the threat of increased maintenance fees? I'm already paying $711! I asked if they would just take the week back. They said lots of people ask this and that itis not their policy. This place is worthless, literally. I've watched numerous weeks not sell at all or sell for next to nothing on ebay (I'm talking $200 or less). I just want to get rid of it. Sorry for the rant...


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## EileenSRN

On the Celebrity Resorts Owners Section of their website, there's a request for Orlando owners to sign a POA. That has been there since last fall. There was much talk on the Yahoo group about it and no one over there singed it. Our MF didn't go up by 200, but neither did it go down! After much discussion, it was learned that what they wanted to do was reduce the amount of reserve the State of FL requires of timeshares, unless the HOA votes to maintain less $. So, the reason for the POA was reasonable, but, it's not a limited POA and even if it was, they could do whatever they wanted with it while it was in force. I will only sign a POA that is for a specific purpose, with a specific time line.
I picked mine up on ebay for under 200 and if it didn't get me decent trades I'd give it away. When we retire next year, we're going to reevaluate our portfolio and make some changes.
Eileen


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## teepeeca

*POA's ---???*

Ii'm NOT hijacking the thread, BUT, wanted to give you my opinion.  "IF" someone wants you to sign a "Power of attorney" (POA), I would do it ONLY under the following condition(s).

Make sure the POA is  "LIMITED" POA---can only be used for one or two "specific" things.  That way the "management company" (and I use that term loosely---NOT TO HAPPY with some of them) can only use your poa for what YOU designate, and for nothing else.  (Many of the management companies DO NOT like the limited POA's---they can't do what they "really" wanted to do !!!

Tony


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## EileenSRN

I concur with Tony completely. The POA on the website SAYS it's limited, but when you read it carefully, it is not specific to the reduction of the reserves only. I am sure that no matter which resort they are asking for the POA it's not a good thing. 
If there was one owner going to a HOA meeting who would be willing to represent the group with their proxy's, then we might be able to elicit change. I plan to go to as many of the HOA meetings of my timeshares as I can after we retire next year. 
Eileen


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## DK09

*RICO*

Received a couple of letters from Regulated Industries Complaints Office (RICO) today, one asking for more information.....
If you want to know what they had to say PM me and I will be happy to forward the info to you.


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## qaRuss

*ARDA*

To update, another week, still no reply from ARDA to provide the complaint forms necessary to direct this to the Ethics Committee. 
I have requested that if staff will not provide the forms the name of the Ethics Chair should be provided. I will then approch that person direct.
Russ


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## DK09

*by-laws*

Does anyone have a copy of the White Sands Resort-Waikiki by-laws and if so would you forward me a copy?!


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## DK09

*closed*

White Sands Resort-Waikiki is now closed.  I was forwarded information that everyone was out by 11 am on Sunday May 3 and pictures were coming off the walls.  Celebrity website no longer lists it as one of their locations.  To all the staff there, we will miss you.  You were wonderful to all of us over the years.  Good Luck and God Bless.


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## EileenSRN

There's still an active link from the map. They can't do anything right!
Eileen


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## JeffW

I guess the question now, is anyone still responsible for it?  Do those SA assessment bills now become moot, or does there need to be a cancellation letter from Celebrity indicated there is no payment required?  Hopefully one of their last activities wasn't forwarding all the non-payments to a collection agency.

Jeff


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## Blackwhat

*special assessment*

Obviously some of the projected expenses will need to be changed.
Who is in charge? Is the developer (Celebrity Resorts) current with it's annual dues which is about $775,000? That should cover most of the expenses including property taxes.
Pay Up Celebrity!
Black-what


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## trump12

*Special Assessment*

So, if in fact White Sands has closed, are the members still responsible for the special assessment imposed on the members by Celebrity?  And would Celebrity still be managing a resort that no longer exists?


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## Blackwhat

*Special Assessment reevaluation*

Since the projected expenses have now changed, if Celebrity Resorts as the paid manager of White Sands bills you for or implies that you are in arrears they are in my opinion definetly out of bounds. 
The question also comes up as to the proxy statement on the internet regarding Celebrity Resorts condo project.

The best thing to do is sit tight unless you feel you have been financilly taken advantage of through a deceitful disclosure statement you received when you purchased the RTU timeshare agreement. For example, not being told you would be charged for the arrears of other members who failed to pay their annual fees. These members or units could be units owned by Celebrity Resorts but Celebrity Resorts has failed to provide information related to that. Violations related to Hawaiian Time Shares are governed by HRS 514E. They are Hawaiian statutes. Read them.
Black what


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## rachel1998

Do you think it pays to contact RCI and inform them? I would like them to give me back my week since I paid my MF in December before the SA was issued.


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## JeffW

It can't hurt to send them an email and ask.  You don't necessarily have to mention non-payment of the SA, you could just state, "... I paid my m/f last year, received a banked week, but the resort has since closed, what's my status?", and see how they respond.

Jeff


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## rachel1998

I emailed RCI last night. I will let you know what I find out. I am not that optomistic that they will give me back the week.


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## Blackwhat

*Regardless*

There are only two or three people on the board of the White Sands and I believe they are all employees or associated with the Celebrity Resort company. 
They say the White Sands Resort was closed because it failed to collect enought funds from it's members. 
They ignore requests for financial infomation which should be provided based on Hawaiian statutes. 
What are they hiding?
Has the developer paid his annual fees of over $775,000 or the special assessment in the amount of over $695,000 for 2009? 
Why are the accounting records not available on request?
What is the balance in the association bank account(s)?
What is the factor used to determine all the projected deficits.
What was the actual bad debt for 2008?
Why are the accounting records so secret?
Black-what


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## Blackwhat

*Disclosure Statement*

As a purchaser of White Sands RTU timeshare plan you should have received a disclosure statement. If not I believe they are in violation of 514E the Hawaiian statute which provides that violations allow the purchaser to void the sale or transfer if so desired.
If you did receive a disclosure statement read it carefully.
There are specific requirements which may not have been met and which I will not disclose on this board.  If Celebrity Resorts  is in violation of any of these requirements they are in violation of Hawaiian statutes.  
The statutes do provide that you may have recourse as far as getting your 2009 annual fees refunded in addition to possible other damages.
Read your disclosure and 514E.
Black-what


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## rachel1998

I just received another call from Celebrity Resorts regarding the SA. I told her I had no intention of paying since the resort is either closed down or in the process of closing down. She said the collection calls would continue. I told her to write it on my account to discontinue the calls and that I had no intention of paying. She then hung up on me.


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## JeffW

rachel1998 said:


> I just received another call from Celebrity Resorts regarding the SA. ... She then hung up on me.



Are you sure it was FROM Celebrity, and not a collection agency representing them?  Regardless of the circumstances, there's no reason an employee of theirs should be so rude as to hang up on you.  

Collection agency, not surprising, as there's no reason for them to remain talking to you (at least for that call) once you make it clear they aren't getting any money from you.

Jeff


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## rachel1998

No, it was Celebrity. I was getting a little testy with her so I guess she had enough of me at that point.


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## Blackwhat

*Is Developer in arrears?*

Has the developer paid his annual fees of over $775,000 or the special assessment in the amount of over $695,000 for 2009?


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## rachel1998

Do we know for sure that the resort is closed down right now? Also, is there anyone on this board that has reservations there later on this year? If so what are you planning on doing?


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## lsk

I received a call yesterday, automated, asking me to call Celebrity about the special assessment. I didn't bother writing the number down. I'm going to write another letter, both to the billing company and the Scottsdale address, again giving them my position and disputing the assessment and asking that they remove my name from the call list. If I continue to recieve calls I'll report them to my sheriff's department.  I think it's against the law, considered harrassment. I have not gotten anything from Anne Thompson or anyone else from Celebrity. And yes, the resort is closed. This came from someone who actually was in Hawaii and saw the closing and also from an employee.


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## rachel1998

If the resort is truly closed and I have no reason to doubt this, how can they ask for a SA? I have not received any kind of reply from RCI either. I am going to call them tomorrow. How can they justify taking away my week because of none payment of a SA if the resort is closed? It doesn't make sense to me.


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## JeffW

At this point, there only legal option would seem to be to restate their SA request, removing any funds related to ongoing or future activities, and possibly just state that an SA is needed to cover previous deliquencies.  There could be a debate though over who's responsible for previous debt, especially if the resort is no longer operating.  
There's also the potential for a countersuit, since I believe the original terms of the contact were for occupancy rights thru Dec 2009  

Hopefully it settles out to Celebrity not sueing for back-payments in exchange for owners not sueing for early closing.

Jeff


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## Blackwhat

*Now what*

Since Celebrity Resorts seems to continue on the approach they have used which is threatening owners for the special assessment I do not think you will get a fair explanation from them as to the final expenses of the association. Which you are entitled to. (I would think)
All financial info is in the hands of those in charge and woe be it onto others. I read that someplace! 
Your agreement probably states that the seller has the sole right to terminate the agreement in the event of default and therefore your agreement by it's terms puts the seller in the position of responsibiity regarding defaults. Black what


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## rachel1998

I received an email today from RCI in response to the email I sent them a few days ago. What they said was that the week was taken away by Celebrity resorts in response to non payment of fees. They said I should contact Celebrity regarding this matter. I have serious doubts that this matter will ever be resolved.


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## Blackwhat

*serious doubts*

As I have sugguested in the past, get out your contract and your disclosure statement plus HRS514E and do the research by reading about your obligations. Black what


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## Link7881

rachel1998 said:


> I have a RTU week at this resort. This is the last year of it for me. We purchased it on a resale with 12 years left. I only have used it for trading purposes. It has been a lousy trader by the way. Today I received in the mail a letter with a bill for a special assessment for $695.00. I don't care if I don't use it this year. What happens to my credit if I don't pay this?
> Thank you



I would like to think that it's like any other unpaid debt on your credit record. Cuz if they report it as an upaid debt, you'll take a hit. You can also open up to collection efforts depending on how far the resort wants to take it. Don't forget that they might tack on collection costs, late fee's and interest along the way.

Hawaii Tours Guide


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## rachel1998

I don't have a contract. I purchased the week on a resale in Las Vegas in 1996. I don't remember the name of the company before it became Ramada and so on.


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## Blackwhat

*no contract option*

One option would be to request a copy from Celebrity. Good luck but it might be worth a try. Tell them oyu cannot make a decision about the S.Assessment until you know what the contract
states.  Blackwhat


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## somerville

*Celebrity and Hanalei Bay Resort*

For an update on the dispute between timeshare owners at Hanalei Bay Resort and Celebrity, please read the article in the Honolulu Star Bulletin found at this link: http://www.starbulletin.com/business/businessbriefs/20090515_Business_Briefs.html


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## Blackwhat

*Best Wishes*

Hanalei Bay members: 
We wish you all the best. The Celebrity Resort WHITE SANDS Waikiki is NOW CLOSED DUE TO  financial problems. The only two board members are executive employees of Celebrity Resorts. Most members have lost their annual fee because they have been denied their right to use the week they paid for. Somewhat of a conflict of interest to say the least when the board consists of employees of the management company. Who controls the purse strings? Celebrity Resorts is not a company to be trusted in my opinion. They seem to sneak in and undermine the intent of fiscally sound management.
Black-what


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## DK09

*star bulletin may 19, 2009*

As there are many people viewing this post, here is a link to an article in today's Honolulu Star Bulletin which should be of interest.

http://www.starbulletin.com/business/20090519_Queen_Emma_has_tract_ideas.html


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## rachel1998

Well that really sums up the situation we are all in. I am sure Celebrity Resorts must have really hit hard times. They must think that we are all idiots to pay an additional $695.00 for a resort that is closed down. Why would anyone do that?


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## Blackwhat

*How about getting your money back?*

The annual dues you paid is still in question if you have not used the week you paid for. Since Celebrity Resorts is in violation of HRS514e you are entitled to get your money back.
Also, based on their web site they say they are doing great even though they have failed to keep the White Sands Resort Club as a working resort. It was forced to close on May 3rd.
I would have to question their ability to manage a resort in a manner owners would expect.
Blackwhat


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## Blackwhat

*Property taxes*

Accvording to the Honolulu property tax info on the internet the approximatly $26,000 in property tax bill has been paid. There was an additional penalty of over $1000 due to the failure to pay on time. Whose lack of concern is responsible for that?
Also, the projected budget indicated about $150,000 was projected for property taxes. What property tax burdens of the White Sands would lead to this projection if only $26,000 was needed? This is an oversight that has been going on for years past. As has been the case in many of the past years. As usual, something smells!
Black-what


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## Blackwhat

*Celebrity Management*

To date, Celebrity Management has still not provided the financial information to support their proposed budget for 2009 nor their special assessment of $695. 
Now that the White Sands Celebrity Resort is no longer taking reservations and Celebrity Management has collected the annual dues of $775 plus the special assessment of $695 from many of the members I would expect an appropriate explanation to the members as to the current status of funds belonging to the association.
Possibly a second letter based on the above to the BB Bureau of Hawaii and Florida might be useful at this time. Also how about the Orlando Sentinal?
Blackwhat


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## DK09

*White sands now college dorm rooms*

what about those of us who still haven't been able to use our time there and have paid our maintenance fee for 2009



http://pacific.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2009/07/06/daily58.html


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## JeffW

I sent an email to Celebrity yesterday asking for status of the resort.  I told my father (who owns (owned?)) a unit there, what was reported on TUG - that the resort closed.  However I mentioned that I'd think there should be some final closing letter about the resort.  The special assessment was a legal bill at the time it was issued.  If it's been cancelled, if I was him, I'd want a copy of that.  

Jeff


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## rachel1998

Has anyone spoken to RCI and told them about the use of our timeshare for dorms?


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## Blackwhat

*Leave it to Celebrity*

A book should be written on "Unpleasent Time Share Experiences With Celebrity Resorts; and more". 
Would that be illegal? I do not know but I do not think there would be any difficulty in providing text for the endeavor. 
Any profits would go to a refund of our 2009 dues.
I have to think that Celebrity has forfieted their lease to the Queen Emma Foundation but I don't know this to be a fact. Can someone find out. Meanwhile I will get to work on the book.
Blackwhat


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## Kona Lovers

Just wondering.....

I noticed on an auction site some units for sale.  Why would this happen if it's closed?  Maybe these owners haven't heard?  

Marty


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## Blackwhat

*white sands*

Latest word I have is that it is being used for college student housing. Blackwhat


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## mdahmus

*Small Claims Court*

Does anybody have any idea what jurisdictions might be available to file a suit in small claims court against Celebrity for the 2009 breach-of-contract? We're out two years' maintenance fees due to the closing of the resort (we had internally 'banked' a week from 2008 as well) and would like to attempt to recover some damages from these people (as unlikely as that might be).

We live in Texas; looks like Celebrity doesn't have any operations here as far as I can tell.


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## Blackwhat

*Jurisdiction for filing suit.*

I have thought small claims court might be an avenue to explore. Other than that I know they have offices for billing in Arizona, they obviously do business in Hawaii and Florida. Makes it very difficult to rationalize filing a law suit considering the costs and effort involved. We need an attorney familiar with consumer relations and willing to work on the bases of: he gets paid when we get satisfaction. I am not sure we would win since Celebrity hoodwinked the members by taking over the association due to the inactivity of the other members. How can the members who are scattered all over the world be active when they have to travel thousands of miles to participate? Celebrity simply set themselves up as the board members and made the rules in their favor.     
It really is an organization that should have their policies made known to all and be prevented from getting a business license anywhere. Blackwhat


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## crsalanitro

*White Sands Waikiki Delema*

Like most of you, I have had the same grips over this tragic event. Being an owner for 24 years, I felt betrayed and left to rot. My relationship with the White Sands over those years has been remarkable, having virtually raised my daughters and grand kids yearly on White Sands property along with their employees becoming long term friends. We utilized this timeshare more than most would have ever thought of doing; and while flying from L.A. was beyond my means for years, I would not have changed a thing.  I wrote some very serious letters to Celebrity Resorts over issues much the same as you all did. Cookie was responsive, but cautious. Having esculated my plight to her management, I received evasive replies and played ping pong mail to no evail. When I strip all of the complaints away, there remains two unanswered contractually related issues. 1) my contract states that a premature closure has to have a majority vote by the owners. 2) the term of resort usage was to run through December of 2009. However, as you well know, the reservations desk closed the end of April, 2009. My position is that celebrity resorts owes it's owners a fee rebate for the remainder of the year


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## Blackwhat

My understanding is that Celebrity Resorts has filed for bankruptcy. They also seem to have organized their assets into Limited Liability corporations (various) which makes it difficult to understand where anyone stands with them. AS much as I would like to see the culprits pay, I do not have the resources to go any further. However I seem to recall a paragraph in our original contract which provided for some sort of insurance against the failure of the contract owner.
Being the contract was sold, I believe twice, since we bought back in 1981 we don't know where we stand in this regard. And again I would not have the resources to follow up. 
Blackwhat


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