# Purchase from Developer or Resale Market?



## Colby Meals (Oct 8, 2017)

Hi everyone, just wanted to jump on.....sat through a sales presentation and man these guys are aggressive!  I'm in sales for a living and thought many times they were way too over the top.  Anyway, I was blown away by the cost of buying these points and didn't buy at the presentation.  I came back and did some research and see that it's a heck of a lot cheaper on EBAY; however, my concern is are most of the companies selling on EBAY legitimate and I wouldn't be throwing my money into a scam?  How do you check these companies out?  Is there a difference in points (developer bought and resale bought points) and how to make reservations on Wyndham's website after purchasing?  What "perks" would I miss out on?  Or are the perks really not worth it?  Thanks in advance for all your help!


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 8, 2017)

Buy resale. 

Next question ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## whitewater (Oct 8, 2017)

AwayWeGo said:


> Buy resale.
> 
> Next question ?
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


x2



Colby Meals said:


> Hi everyone, just wanted to jump on.....sat through a sales presentation and man these guys are aggressive!  I'm in sales for a living and thought many times they were way too over the top.  Anyway, I was blown away by the cost of buying these points and didn't buy at the presentation.  I came back and did some research and see that it's a heck of a lot cheaper on EBAY; however, my concern is are most of the companies selling on EBAY legitimate and I wouldn't be throwing my money into a scam?  How do you check these companies out?  Is there a difference in points (developer bought and resale bought points) and how to make reservations on Wyndham's website after purchasing?  What "perks" would I miss out on?  Or are the perks really not worth it?  Thanks in advance for all your help!




unless you want to spend more for something that many of us got for "free".   

just not worth it IMHO.


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## Colby Meals (Oct 8, 2017)

lol, ok!  Thanks!


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## Avislo (Oct 8, 2017)

For the part on difference in Wyndham Club Plus points at different ownership VIP levels, just google Wyndham Club Plus Members Diretorey 2014-2015.  Depending what you want to do, VIP levels point levels are cost prohibitive for most.  Do not be in a hurry and research the resort(s) you may want.  In any case no one knows as a factual matter where Club Wyndham is going, so, two key factors would be where you want to go (ARP/RARP) and maintenance fees.  I would strongly suggest you rent a off season rental at the resort(s) you would consider.  You might want to say what resort you were at and what they were trying to sell you for those that are being just curious.


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## Lipekerri (Oct 8, 2017)

Our last trip, we were told Wyndham was trying to "phase out" resell points and that eventually (in 5-10 years) resell points would be useless.  Thoughts on that?  Anyone been told that by sales?


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## ServeChilled (Oct 8, 2017)

I am concerned about the same thing and that's why we haven't bought resale yet. However, in the same vein, how do they phase out a property you own by deed? Do the contracts say anything about Wyndham being able to take the property rights away from an owner?


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## ronparise (Oct 8, 2017)

The only difference between points bought from the developer vs points purchased on the secondary market is that developer purchased points count toward vip status

The vip benefits have value (less now since the new rules) but the question is “are those benefits worth the cost?” I think not


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## Lipekerri (Oct 8, 2017)

The guy we spoke to said resell points, moving forward, are "flagged".  Somehow, flagged points won't have as much "buying power" as those you buy from them.


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## ServeChilled (Oct 8, 2017)

The sales manager guy told me the same thing before I rescinded but he wouldn't explain to me what flagged meant, which, to me, means it's an empty threat.


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## CruiseGuy (Oct 8, 2017)

Lipekerri said:


> Our last trip, we were told Wyndham was trying to "phase out" resell points and that eventually (in 5-10 years) resell points would be useless.  Thoughts on that?  Anyone been told that by sales?



Anyone seriously considering buying retail points should immediately challenge this statement!  The salesman are also trying to tell you that the purchase is an investment in one breath, and then telling you that the points you buy are worthless and you won't be able to get rid of them (because they will be resale points).  It's basically true because resale points sell for pennies on the dollar already, but they need to be asked why Wyndham would take steps to further devalue the purchase they are trying to get you to make.  And this being the case, why should anyone ever consider buying retail.


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## spackler (Oct 8, 2017)

Wyndham salesmen have been lying about resale points being ‘worthless’ for years.


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## Avislo (Oct 8, 2017)

Contracts being "Flagged" is not new, it has been going on at least as long as I have been with Wyndham (many years).


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## Lipekerri (Oct 8, 2017)

We don't really care about upgrades and all the other benefits of silver + memberships.  Our thinking is points are points, right?  This guy made it sound that even if we have 1 million points, they may be useless in 5-10 years.  Just curious if any other sales people are using that tactic.


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## ronparise (Oct 8, 2017)

Lipekerri said:


> We don't really care about upgrades and all the other benefits of silver + memberships.  Our thinking is points are points, right?  This guy made it sound that even if we have 1 million points, they may be useless in 5-10 years.  Just curious if any other sales people are using that tactic.



They have been doing that for years


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## ronparise (Oct 8, 2017)

ServeChilled said:


> I am concerned about the same thing and that's why we haven't bought resale yet. However, in the same vein, how do they phase out a property you own by deed? Do the contracts say anything about Wyndham being able to take the property rights away from an owner?



To understand what might or might not be possible you have to understand the structure of the club and just what, exactly, points are

What we know as Club Wyndham is essentially an exchange mechanism whereby the owners of one resort can stay at another resort 

So how is that done? 

 We assign our use rights to the club and in exchange we get points. The points are then used as currency to make reservations at any of the resorts in the club

So could they give us our use rights back and make our points worthless? Sure they could. It happens now. Don’t pay the program fees for a converted fixed week any that week will revert to being a fixed week. I’m not sure that it can happen with a UDI deed but more to the point if they did you would only be able to make reservations at your home resort. Which kind of frustrates the whole concept of an exchange club.  It aint gonna happen

Here’s where I think things are going. I don’t know how, but Wyndham will gain complete control of the secondary market. I’m betting that they will start buying contracts back. 

So ultimately, if you want Wyndham points,  the only place to get them will be from Wyndham


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## Avislo (Oct 8, 2017)

Some resorts that were early Fairfield Resorts have clauses that the HOA must vote to continue or liquidate after a specified period of time.  Review the contract and program documents if this is of concern to you to see if a clause like that exists.  What happens if the HOA involved does not continue, I do not know what happens.  In some cases, Wyndham can toss a HOA or the HOA can toss Wyndham.


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## silentg (Oct 8, 2017)

Join TUG, check the Marketplace rent a place and decide where you want to buy. There is lot of good advice here. We all have bought resales and for the most part, are happy with our timeshares.
Silentg


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 8, 2017)

Lipekerri said:


> Our last trip, we were told Wyndham was trying to "phase out" resell points and that eventually (in 5-10 years) resell points would be useless.  Thoughts on that?


If their lips were moving, chances are they were lying. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Lipekerri (Oct 9, 2017)




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## dgalati (Oct 9, 2017)

Resale owners are flagged with Member numbers beginning with 00999****** These are flagged as resale accounts.


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## wjappraise (Oct 9, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Here’s where I think things are going. I don’t know how, but Wyndham will gain complete control of the secondary market. I’m betting that they will start buying contracts back.
> 
> So ultimately, if you want Wyndham points,  the only place to get them will be from Wyndham



They've always had ROFR.  As far as I know they've never exercised it.  That's the only way to "corner" the market.  If ovation takes enough inventory off market for $0 or close to $0 then prices on secondary market will rise.  

My belief is there will always be a secondary market where purchases are possible for pennies on the dollar.  How many pennies?  That remains to be seen.  

Supply and demand.


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## Avislo (Oct 9, 2017)

The 999 xx xxxx accounts maybe mostly re-sale, some are not.  Mine is not.  This code, I believe, just means corporate issues it instead of a sales office.  Of all my deeded contracts only Towers on the Grove has a right of first refusal.  It has been a long time since I have looked at one, but, the sheet the sales rep runs out per contract on your account has a block that indicates if it is re-sale or not.


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## djohn75087 (Oct 9, 2017)

Lipekerri said:


> Our last trip, we were told Wyndham was trying to "phase out" resell points and that eventually (in 5-10 years) resell points would be useless.  Thoughts on that?  Anyone been told that by sales?



Resale owners pay program fees, reservation transaction fees, and at times house keeping fees. We also pay some resorts for parking, wifi, and activities. If they kicked us out kicked they would lose a bunch of money. On top of that many would walk away from their timeshares. Wyndham might be happy to take back some timeshares but they need some of us to stick around to keep this thing profitable. I don't think they'll do this because they like charging my CC every month. If they did this I would probably walk away from my timeshare and go the Airbnb route.


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## ronparise (Oct 9, 2017)

dgalati said:


> Resale owners are flagged with Member numbers beginning with 00999****** These are flagged as resale accounts.


yes and no

Ive had  a 999 account with a developer purchased contract in it as well as converted Pahio contracts that counted toward VIP

and Ive had accounts with nothing but resale contracts that didnt have a 999 account number

The important thing isnt the member number, its the contract itself. resales should be flagged as resale


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## ronparise (Oct 9, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> They've always had ROFR.  As far as I know they've never exercised it.  That's the only way to "corner" the market.  If ovation takes enough inventory off market for $0 or close to $0 then prices on secondary market will rise.
> 
> My belief is there will always be a secondary market where purchases are possible for pennies on the dollar.  How many pennies?  That remains to be seen.
> 
> Supply and demand.




to my knowledge only CWA has ROFR

but they could corner the market with a  buy back program and straw man buyers


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## wjappraise (Oct 9, 2017)

ronparise said:


> to my knowledge only CWA has ROFR
> 
> but they could corner the market with a  buy back program and straw man buyers



I have two UDI developer purchased that show ROFR.  Small sample size, but part of the equation.  Even if it only applies to CWA we have no reports of Wyndham exercising this right.  

If they cornered the market, then resale values would escalate quickly.  Supply and demand.


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## ronparise (Oct 9, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> I have two UDI developer purchased that show ROFR.  Small sample size, but part of the equation.  Even if it only applies to CWA we have no reports of Wyndham exercising this right.
> 
> If they cornered the market, then resale values would escalate quickly.  Supply and demand.



That would be the point. No?

Get resale prices almost as high as developer prices so developer prices don’t look so bad, and no one would accumulate enough points to be considered a megarenter


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## wjappraise (Oct 9, 2017)

ronparise said:


> That would be the point. No?
> 
> Get resale prices almost as high as developer prices so developer prices don’t look so bad, and no one would accumulate enough points to be considered a megarenter



It would be the point.  But history says it won't happen.  Most buyers (including me) don't research resale values before making an emotional purchase of a developer sold timeshare.  

I'd love to see it as would all current owners, our values of holdings would go up.  I just think the inventory is bloated.  And the changes made with the new website have diminished demand.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Silverdollar (Oct 9, 2017)

djohn75087 said:


> Resale owners pay program fees, reservation transaction fees, and at times house keeping fees. We also pay some resorts for parking, wifi, and activities. If they kicked us out kicked they would lose a bunch of money. On top of that many would walk away from their timeshares. Wyndham might be happy to take back some timeshares but they need some of us to stick around to keep this thing profitable. I don't think they'll do this because they like charging my CC every month. If they did this I would probably walk away from my timeshare and go the Airbnb route.


I had similar thoughts last night, but you worded it much better than I could. I would be curious to know what percentage of Wyndham's income is derived from fees versus the sale of developer points. The question for me is whether they would lose more money from kicking out the resale owners than they are currently losing in the sale of developer points to the secondary market. I am thinking that at some point, as more and more people purchase resales they will have to do something. I don't know what form it will take, but I personally believe resales will be flagged and inventory/benefits restricted in some way.


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## Ty1on (Oct 9, 2017)

Lipekerri said:


> Our last trip, we were told Wyndham was trying to "phase out" resell points and that eventually (in 5-10 years) resell points would be useless.  Thoughts on that?  Anyone been told that by sales?



My response if a salesman told me this would be, "so you are telling me that you want me to spend $30,000 on something that in 5-10 years would be completely worthless and impossible to get rid of...."

The process of reserving is precisely the same for resale.  You get a 13 month window at a resort where you own (or in the case of CWA, 13 months at 70 resorts, limited to the total number of accommodations CWA owns in those resorts), and at 10 months, all points are the same, resale or developer bought.  Exceptions, of course, are VIP benefits, which you can only get buying developer.  Many people don't think the benefits are worth the cost.


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## ronparise (Oct 9, 2017)

Silverdollar said:


> I had similar thoughts last night, but you worded it much better than I could. I would be curious to know what percentage of Wyndham's income is derived from fees versus the sale of developer points. The question for me is whether they would lose more money from kicking out the resale owners than they are currently losing in the sale of developer points to the secondary market. I am thinking that at some point, as more and more people purchase resales they will have to do something. I don't know what form it will take, but I personally believe resales will be flagged and inventory/benefits restricted in some way.


Wyndham derives no income from the various fees. The fees go to the club to cover expenses.( One of the expenses is a management fee)


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## SeanH (Nov 11, 2017)

Corporate office called to offer me a great deal, lol. Told them i needed a day to think. Fortunately i found TUG, asked them why i wouldnt just buy resale points. I was told that you were limited in the properties you could go to with resale points. From what it sounds here, that is a lie. Then they said most people get vip silver then buy resale. Anyone ever had problems booking with resale points?


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## ronparise (Nov 11, 2017)

SeanH said:


> Corporate office called to offer me a great deal, lol. Told them i needed a day to think. Fortunately i found TUG, asked them why i wouldnt just buy resale points. I was told that you were limited in the properties you could go to with resale points. From what it sounds here, that is a lie. Then they said most people get vip silver then buy resale. Anyone ever had problems booking with resale points?


All of us have had booking problems, It dosent matter whether we bought from Wyndham or resale


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## Railman83 (Nov 11, 2017)

ronparise said:


> To understand what might or might not be possible you have to understand the structure of the club and just what, exactly, points are
> 
> What we know as Club Wyndham is essentially an exchange mechanism whereby the owners of one resort can stay at another resort
> 
> ...




I had thought that if the gained control by going on a buying spree and flooding the market with CWA from that spree that you might wind up with a larger percentage of inventory in CWA and the resale deeds would be shut out more if essentially everyone was CWA or Pass.  


The problem for that particular fear is there is lots of resale CWA.


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## Avislo (Nov 11, 2017)

Before someone does this they may want to review the threads on suspensions.  Also, maybe chat with some of the mega-renters and or former mega renters.  Do so at your own risk is my reading of those threads.


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## Avislo (Nov 12, 2017)

If what is being referred to above is Wyndham going on a buying spree and placing the units into CWA that would change ownership percentages.  It is possible that CWA voting percentages over CWP could increase over time.


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## ilya (Nov 12, 2017)

Relatives(PR owners)were at Ocean Boulevard and went to an update. The sales person told them they needed to have 400,000 in CWA points to have the best chance for an upgrade by using the arp. And was also told everything is going into CWA and deeded contracts are being phased out with only a small percentage of OB left as Deeded.  Truth or Crap?


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## AwayWeGo (Nov 12, 2017)

Last time we subjected ourselves to a Wyndham sales pitch (Kissimmee FL, January 2017), the Wyndham person across the little table from us eventually let it slip that what they're selling is sizzle, not steak -- although I doubt he realized that's what he admitted.  

That is, after going on & on about the fabulous benefits of VIP status as contrasted with bare-naked resale Wyndham points, he started talking down the plain points by saying all they are good for is timeshare accommodations, nothing more, & that's all they have in common with VIP points bought from Wyndham at full freight.  

My take on the Wyndham VIP perks is that they may well be very nice but still are not worth anything close to their exorbitant cost. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Jan M. (Nov 12, 2017)

ilya said:


> Relatives(PR owners)were at Ocean Boulevard and went to an update. The sales person told them they needed to have 400,000 in CWA points to have the best chance for an upgrade by using the arp. And was also told everything is going into CWA and deeded contracts are being phased out with only a small percentage of OB left as Deeded.  Truth or Crap?



If it came out of a sales person's mouth it was complete and total crap!


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## Avislo (Nov 12, 2017)

As it relates to the 2nd half of the comment.  Ocean Blvd. was sold as UDI for awhile.  Any change along the lines of leaving only a small percentage of OB left as deeded probably would take awhile.  I can only guess at the CWA comment.  Ocean Blvd. tends to be an expensive points resort compared to Sea Watch Plantation etc.


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## ronparise (Nov 12, 2017)

ilya said:


> Relatives(PR owners)were at Ocean Boulevard and went to an update. The sales person told them they needed to have 400,000 in CWA points to have the best chance for an upgrade by using the arp. And was also told everything is going into CWA and deeded contracts are being phased out with only a small percentage of OB left as Deeded.  Truth or Crap?




Crap

2 things

1) Not too many years ago when Wyndham developed their points program and UDI became a thing, the word was that diced weeks were on their way out

Not everyone converted and there still are lots of weeks at the old fixed weeks resorts being bought and sold and used

2) CWA is made up of fixed weeks and UDI deeds. When they go into the CWA trust they are still deeded (just deeded to the trust, not individuals

Deeded ownerships,  whether fixed weeks, converted fixed weeks or UDI are not going away. 

And even if they are all added to CWA it won’t make any difference. Except That all points will  be usable at all the resorts at 13 months


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## ilya (Nov 15, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Crap
> 
> 2 things
> 
> ...




I guess that is why they were trying to sell CWA. Convincing  owners their membership is not valuable anymore unless you own CWA because everything will eventually go into it.


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## needhelp (Nov 20, 2017)

ronparise said:


> That would be the point. No?
> 
> Get resale prices almost as high as developer prices so developer prices don’t look so bad, and no one would accumulate enough points to be considered a megarenter


Would not this cost Wyndham more than just lowering the developer price? Even with ROFR they would have to agree to pay the owner.


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## 55plus (Nov 20, 2017)

ilya said:


> I guess that is why they were trying to sell CWA. Convincing  owners their membership is not valuable anymore unless you own CWA because everything will eventually go into it.


Points are points unless you are looking for ARP. You will always have ARP at your deeded resort no matter what Wyndham says or does. They don't have the power to mess with your deed. Deeds are recorded by the state and the laws governing, where as CWA are a trust  controlled by Wyndham.


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## Leester (Apr 22, 2018)

wjappraise said:


> It would be the point.  But history says it won't happen.  Most buyers (including me) don't research resale values before making an emotional purchase of a developer sold timeshare.
> 
> I'd love to see it as would all current owners, our values of holdings would go up.  I just think the inventory is bloated.  And the changes made with the new website have diminished demand.
> 
> ...





Colby Meals said:


> Hi everyone, just wanted to jump on.....sat through a sales presentation and man these guys are aggressive!  I'm in sales for a living and thought many times they were way too over the top.  Anyway, I was blown away by the cost of buying these points and didn't buy at the presentation.  I came back and did some research and see that it's a heck of a lot cheaper on EBAY; however, my concern is are most of the companies selling on EBAY legitimate and I wouldn't be throwing my money into a scam?  How do you check these companies out?  Is there a difference in points (developer bought and resale bought points) and how to make reservations on Wyndham's website after purchasing?  What "perks" would I miss out on?  Or are the perks really not worth it?  Thanks in advance for all your help!





Colby Meals said:


> Hi everyone, just wanted to jump on.....sat through a sales presentation and man these guys are aggressive!  I'm in sales for a living and thought many times they were way too over the top.  Anyway, I was blown away by the cost of buying these points and didn't buy at the presentation.  I came back and did some research and see that it's a heck of a lot cheaper on EBAY; however, my concern is are most of the companies selling on EBAY legitimate and I wouldn't be throwing my money into a scam?  How do you check these companies out?  Is there a difference in points (developer bought and resale bought points) and how to make reservations on Wyndham's website after purchasing?  What "perks" would I miss out on?  Or are the perks really not worth it?  Thanks in advance for all your help!



I’d like to add to this and get some feedback from owners who have both resell and developer points. Sounds like the resell points are completely separate. Is that correct? So if I had 200k developer points and 200k resell points from the same property and I needed 250k points for my reservation, sounds like I wouldn’t be able to pool the points for one reservation. Is that correct?


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## paxsarah (Apr 22, 2018)

Resale points and developer points commingle in the same account. All points can be used together at 10 months, and if they are from the same property (or all CWA) they can be used together at 13 months as well.


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## Jan M. (Apr 22, 2018)

Leester said:


> I’d like to add to this and get some feedback from owners who have both resell and developer points. Sounds like the resell points are completely separate. Is that correct? So if I had 200k developer points and 200k resell points from the same property and I needed 250k points for my reservation, sounds like I wouldn’t be able to pool the points for one reservation. Is that correct?



Both resale and developer points will go to the same account. When you are buying resale you just give them your Wyndham account number. I rarely use my advance reservation priority, ARP, which is 13 months out, so can't give the best information about it. To use the ARP, the points would have to come from deeds at the same resort to book that resort so if your deeds come from different resorts you couldn't combine them for ARP. CWA points work a little differently l believe. However at 10 months or less points are points for reservations and will be combined.


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