# What Happened to Tim Horton's? The Downfall of Canada's Brand



## MULTIZ321

What Happened to Tim Horton's? The Downfall of Canada's Brand
By Arwa Mahdawi/ World/ Canada/ The Guardian/ theguardian.com

The coffee shop has long been synonymous with Canada, but bad press and changing tastes have hurt it – and then there was the poop incident.

“It’s your first time in Canada? Oh, you have to try Timmies,” a former colleague informed me, when I landed in Toronto for a business trip several years ago. There was a Tim Hortons next to us in arrivals and before I’d even exited the airport I had a red and white cup in my hand and knew exactly what a double-double was.

Tim Hortons is a famously Canadian brand. It’s not just a corporation – it’s a cultural icon which elicits an extraordinary passion, entirely incommensurate with its unremarkable product. (While talking to people for this article the highest praise anyone would give Tim Hortons coffee when it came to its quality was “it’s fine”.) According to the coffee and fast-food chain, eight out of 10 cups of coffee sold across Canada are from Timmies.

But while the popular purveyor of caffeinated patriotism may have burrowed its way into the national psyche, there are signs that it is beginning to lose its hold on Canadian hearts; not a week seems to go by without a new negative headline about Tim Hortons. In May, for example, the company fell from 13th place to 67th place in a study tracking Canada’s most reputable companies. This was announced only a few weeks after Tim Hortons dropped from number four to 50 in an annual survey of corporate reputation by research firm Leger. “We’ve been doing this study for 20 years and they’ve been at the top 10 every year, except for once when they were number 13,” Dave Scholz, the executive vice-president of Leger, told the Guardian....."





Tim Hortons fell from 13th to 67th place in a study tracking Canada’s most reputable companies. Illustration: Maria Nguyen for the Guardian


Richard


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## Ironwood

Tim Hortons has lost it's way!  They were the #1 brand in Canada, and an iconic institution here, but at last survey had fallen to #67.   Tim Hortons used to be Canadian owned but today are directly controlled by Restaurant Brands International who also own Burger King and Popeyes Louisana Kitchen.  They in turn are controlled by 3G Capital of Brasil...and that is the crux of their downfall.  3G have a reputation for squeezing every dime out of every franchise.  Service and upgrades have taken a back seat.  Employees have been squeezed and treated badly....and most importantly being a coffee shop.....something is wrong with their coffee.  MacDonalds brews a better cup in my opinion. 
In a similar vein, when Vale International of Brasil a mining conglomerate bought INCO the nickel mining conglomerate based in Sudbury Ontario, as the story goes, when the chairman visited one of the underground mines in Sudbury, he drove by large parking lots filled with cars.  He asked who owns all these cars....he was told the miners who are on shift....he responded, the miners have cars?   That's the environment the former INCO is now operating in, and I think Tim Hortons is facing the same operational pressures.  The controlling operators are not familiar with workers earning  a living wage.


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## bogey21

Ironwood said:


> MacDonalds brews a better cup in my opinion.



I now buy McCafe, Columbian, 100% Arabica beans for my at home brewing.  It is produced by McDonalds and sold in my local Super Market.  I'm no coffee connoisseur but I love it...

George


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## billymach4

Anyone hear of this other chain.... Dutch Bros?


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## clifffaith

A few years ago we stayed at a Residence Inn (our favorite lodging when no timeshare is available) in Montreal. There was a Tim Horton's a few doors down. I knew nothing beyond that it was a Canadian chain, and for some reason I had it in my mind that they were coffee and donuts like our Dunkin Donuts. Don't know if we were closer to lunch than breakfast, or what, but it seemed to be more of a burger joint so I was disappointed. That was one of those trips that happen every so often where we end up accidentally in the same place at the same time as a friend or relative.  My cousin's wife just happened to send an email about being in Montreal on business and we were able to connect for a meal while both of us were visiting at the same time from the Los Angeles area.


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## bizaro86

clifffaith said:


> A few years ago we stayed at a Residence Inn (our favorite lodging when no timeshare is available) in Montreal. There was a Tim Horton's a few doors down. I knew nothing beyond that it was a Canadian chain, and for some reason I had it in my mind that they were coffee and donuts like our Dunkin Donuts. Don't know if we were closer to lunch than breakfast, or what, but it seemed to be more of a burger joint so I was disappointed. That was one of those trips that happen every so often where we end up accidentally in the same place at the same time as a friend or relative.  My cousin's wife just happened to send an email about being in Montreal on business and we were able to connect for a meal while both of us were visiting at the same time from the Los Angeles area.



Tim Hortons doesn't sell burgers. They sell coffee, donuts, sandwiches, and soup.


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## PrairieGirl

I personally think that Timmies never fully recovered (at least out West) from their faux pas in 2015/2016 of pulling the videos that the oil sands companies were running on their menu monitors to provide factual information to counter the BS coming out of Hollywood. I saw franchises in several locations that had drive through lines that would be at least 15-20 cars long ALL THE TIME and lines inside that you could hardly squeeze into before getting the door shut drop off to nothing almost overnight. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

Me, I never got the attraction of their coffee until they introduced the Dark Roast.  I much preferred MacDonalds if I needed a quick cup.  But I DO like the Dark Roast!


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## T-Dot-Traveller

PrairieGirl said:


> I
> 
> Me, I never got the attraction of their coffee until they introduced the Dark Roast.  I much preferred MacDonalds if I needed a quick cup.  But I DO like the Dark Roast!



FYI - for non Canadian readers : 5 + year’s ago McDonalds Canada went after Tim’s coffee biz dominance . The “taste “ quality of a cup at a Canadian McDonalds is quite good .

I agree that Tim’ dark roast is better than their standard .

(I drink both black .)


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## clifffaith

bizaro86 said:


> Tim Hortons doesn't sell burgers. They sell coffee, donuts, sandwiches, and soup.



Interesting. They must have been between donut batches or maybe they don't make more donuts once they run out and it's closer to lunch? I sat with nothing while Cliff had a cup of coffee.


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## bbodb1

bizaro86 said:


> Tim Hortons doesn't sell burgers. They sell coffee, donuts, sandwiches, and soup.


Correct me if I am wrong Bizaor86, but it wasn't all that long ago that Tim Horton's used to be coffee and donuts ONLY was it?
From my visit many years ago, that is what I recall......not sure if accurate though...

On our recent trip to Vancouver, I thought I saw salads advertised on the signage in their windows...


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## bizaro86

clifffaith said:


> Interesting. They must have been between donut batches or maybe they don't make more donuts once they run out and it's closer to lunch? I sat with nothing while Cliff had a cup of coffee.



They used to make them in-store, but now they come in batches from a central bakery. I've had donuts there at midnight before, since they just heat up another batch. I'm not sure when they made that change, but it's been awhile.


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## bizaro86

bbodb1 said:


> Correct me if I am wrong Bizaor86, but it wasn't all that long ago that Tim Horton's used to be coffee and donuts ONLY was it?
> From my visit many years ago, that is what I recall......not sure if accurate though...
> 
> On our recent trip to Vancouver, I thought I saw salads advertised on the signage in their windows...



Yes, that is correct. They added a food menu maybe 15 years ago? 

It varies but has a bunch of cafe style food. If I go I usually get a sandwich or a chili. I think they have a grilled chicken  sandwich now, and they've had panini, salads, etc.


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## youppi

bizaro86 said:


> Yes, that is correct. They added a food menu maybe 15 years ago?
> 
> It varies but has a bunch of cafe style food. If I go I usually get a sandwich or a chili. I think they have a grilled chicken  sandwich now, and they've had panini, salads, etc.


Older than that see http://www.timhortons.com/ca/en/corporate/our-story.php
They added muffins, cookies croissant , soups and chilli in the 80'
They added sandwiches in 1998


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## bizaro86

youppi said:


> Older than that see http://www.timhortons.com/ca/en/corporate/our-story.php
> They added muffins, cookies croissant , soups and chilli in the 80'
> They added sandwiches in 1998



Now I feel old...


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## T-Dot-Traveller

bizaro86 said:


> Now I feel old...



Old enough to remember when Tim Horton played for the Leafs ?


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## bizaro86

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Old enough to remember when Tim Horton played for the Leafs ?


Nope. I didn't even know Tim Horton was a hockey player until I read a biography of Ron Joyce in my mid twenties.


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## moonstone

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Old enough to remember when Tim Horton played for the Leafs ?



Yup!  I saw him play when I was young (very young -lol) in the '60's when my grandpa, who was a Metro Toronto Police Sgt., would take me to games that he was working at. He knew a seasons ticket holder in his section who's wife rarely attended so I got to use her seat. My dad won one of Tim Horton's hockey sticks in a draw in 1967. The whole Toronto Maple Leaf team signed the stick and that year the Leafs won the Stanley Cup! My dad could care less about hockey & didn't even know who Tim Horton, Eddie Shack, Paul Henderson... were!  After Tim died Dad thought about selling the stick as he thought he could maybe pay off the mortgage with the proceeds, but it is still in the basement -unless my brother has taken that too!


~Diane


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## rboesl

Tim Horton's is HUGE in the Buffalo, NY area. So dominant that few other options for donuts & coffee exist. Dunkin' Donuts has tried twice to make inroads only to fail. There's now only 1 or 2 DDs left. I think part of the attraction is that Tim Horton played for the Buffalo Sabres at the end of his career and actually died in a car crash when he was driving from Toronto to Buffalo to get to a game after visiting family. 

I personally don't drink coffee and feel their donuts are just ordinary. But, in Buffalo, they have taken on the strategy of McDonalds of saturating the market. For instance, there are 2 store fronts less than 1 mile apart with a service station drive thru just a quarter mile away from one of them and another in-store shop at a car wash another quarter mile down the road.


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## CanuckTravlr

I can remember reading about Tim Horton's death in The Toronto Star the day after his crash on the QEW on the way to Buffalo.  The 1960s were an exciting time to be a Leafs fan.  They won the Cup four times that decade.  Our traditional foe, the Canadiens, won the Cup five times.   I was in grade 12 the last time the Leafs won the Cup in 1967.  I never thought that over 50 years later we would still be waiting for the next win.

That fall the first expansion occurred and it changed the NHL forever.  Players no longer played for the same team for their entire careers.  The talent pool became so thinly stretched that it eventually diluted the product, until the supply of talented players eventually caught up to the demand.  Overall, expansion was good not just for the NHL, but also for hockey...just tough if you are a die-hard Leafs fan.  But there is always next year...right?  Go, Leafs, Go.

I use Tim Horton's about equally with McDonald's if grabbing a quick coffee and a muffin or a breakfast sandwich on my way out.  I do like the variety of soups and sandwiches at Timmie's, but don't order their doughnuts as much.  They are just not as good (IMO) as they were when each location made them from scratch each day.   I also really miss my old favourite, the classic "Dutchie", since they dropped it along with some other varieties, a few years back.


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## am1

clifffaith said:


> Interesting. They must have been between donut batches or maybe they don't make more donuts once they run out and it's closer to lunch? I sat with nothing while Cliff had a cup of coffee.



Are you sure you were not at another place?


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## am1

Used to like it as a kid.  Doughnuts, timbits, muffins, ice cream cakes, fancies and hot chocolate.  Never had a sip of coffee so as an adult it is not as much a draw.  Items were bigger, better and cheaper before.  Others I know are addicted to coffee and go every day.


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## bizaro86

Leafs fans should be enjoying the anticipation around adding  Tavares to an already strong young core. They lost some pieces as well, but should still be better than last year.


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## CanuckTravlr

Yes, Tavares is a positive step. But over the last half century I have been there, done that, bought the hockey jersey several times over!!. The reality in most major league sports these days is that it is very difficult to repeat a championship and to three-peat even more so.

While I remain a life-long Leafs supporter, I am a bit more tempered in my older years.  Yes, we have come close several times, but so have many teams.  It shouldn't take over 50 years for a team with the money and resources that the Leafs organization enjoys, to put together a championship team, if they were truly committed to it!!

I will be happy to celebrate when they actually have the Stanley Cup in their hands and parade up Bay Street!  Until then, I am somewhat reluctant to get my hopes too high.  I feel a bit like Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football!!  

And my apologies to Richard for taking this thread off into a completely different iconic Canadian direction!!    But hockey and Tim Horton's are seldom too far apart, whether it's drinking Tim's coffee in an arena on a cold winter's day, or watching some hockey-themed Tim Horton's commercial on the TV.


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## bizaro86

I think a three-peat is a tough sell. This iteration of the Leafs doesn't seem like a dynasty to me, but they probably have a chance at one. No guarantees, but they should be competitive. Sometime it comes down to bounces and inches.**

I agree it is very unlikely to win that many championships. I remember Ron McLean  saying after the Oilers got McDavid that "it isn't whether they win the cup now, it's how many." Which I think is pretty presumptuous.

As you can probably tell from my avatar, I'm a fan of the Oilers main rival, so seeing McDavid and Co miss the playoffs doesn't hurt my feelings too much.

** 2004 finals a still painful memory!


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## fillde

Big fan of Tim Horton's the bakery. Husband and I just completed a long road trip through Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. WE ran into many shops along the way. Coffee, hot chocolate and doughnuts were always consistently good. Unlike Dunkin, who has discontinued them at least in our area, Timmy carries our favorites, bran muffins and coconut dipped doughnuts. Most importantly the bathrooms were always clean.

By the way we saw some marvelous sites in NS and Nwfld. Okay now back to hockey talk.


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## Ironwood

When you stop at Tim Hortons today, you are supporting a Brazilian hedge fund that controls the brand...imagine that!


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## am1

Ironwood said:


> When you stop at Tim Hortons today, you are supporting a Brazilian hedge fund that controls the brand...imagine that!



Yes part of the reason why we pass over it now when visiting.  Not the same when they are trying to sell the same image.  But along the line someone sold out.


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## dioxide45

clifffaith said:


> Interesting. They must have been between donut batches or maybe they don't make more donuts once they run out and it's closer to lunch? I sat with nothing while Cliff had a cup of coffee.


They don't even make the donuts in the restaurants now. Everything is baked in a commercial bakery and shipped to the stores for sale.


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## LisaH

rboesl said:


> Tim Horton's is HUGE in the Buffalo, NY area. So dominant that few other options for donuts & coffee exist. Dunkin' Donuts has tried twice to make inroads only to fail. There's now only 1 or 2 DDs left. I think part of the attraction is that Tim Horton played for the Buffalo Sabres at the end of his career and actually died in a car crash when he was driving from Toronto to Buffalo to get to a game after visiting family.
> 
> I personally don't drink coffee and feel their donuts are just ordinary. But, in Buffalo, they have taken on the strategy of McDonalds of saturating the market. For instance, there are 2 store fronts less than 1 mile apart with a service station drive thru just a quarter mile away from one of them and another in-store shop at a car wash another quarter mile down the road.


This must be fairly recent. I was in Buffalo in the late 80’s and don’t remember seeing any Tim Horton’s then.


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## CanuckTravlr

dioxide45 said:


> They don't even make the donuts in the restaurants now. Everything is baked in a commercial bakery and shipped to the stores for sale.



That is not completely accurate.  The baked goods are partially baked at the distribution centres and then flash frozen.  They then use special ovens in the stores to finish the baking and also add any toppings, such as icing.  This was done to be able to control wastage, by cooking up batches on demand, as needed, depending upon what was selling that day.  In the old days all the dough was prepared from fresh and everything was baked from scratch in the stores, but it was only done twice a day, so a lot of waste.  A friend of ours was a senior exec at Head Office, but left during the purges after the Brazilian owners took over.  IMO, they still tasted better when they weren't flash frozen!!


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## CanuckTravlr

LisaH said:


> This must be fairly recent. I was in Buffalo in the late 80’s and don’t remember seeing any Tim Horton’s then.



You just missed them!  They started expanding into the USA, starting in the late 1980s.  There are now over 700 Tim Horton's locations in the USA, including one near Times Square in NYC!  I believe they are all in the eastern USA.  They also have a number of overseas locations now.


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## geist1223

Under the old owners do you know how they decided where to build a new Tim Horton's? It was how far a donut would roll from a current Tim Horton's.


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## Ironwood

geist1223 said:


> Under the old owners do you know how they decided where to build a new Tim Horton's? It was how far a donut would roll from a current Tim Horton's.



I have four TH's within a five minute drive from home.  But, the old days are long gone! TH has a new head of operations to lead them into China where they have big plans.  The plan is to include local foods on the menu.  Good luck with integrating that!


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## Ironwood

Well, it doesn't matter what I think of the diminishing brand....they just reported blow out profits last night and their fortunes are on a big rebound.  I guess, the Brazilian hedge fund squeeze of product quality, server pay and benefits is the way to go in fast food.  It's the bottom line that counts, not that I think they have lost their way!


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## chellej

billymach4 said:


> Anyone hear of this other chain.... Dutch Bros?



Dutch Bros is very popular in Eastern Washington.  There are always long lines.  They are drive-through only as far as I know.  They have a good reputation here for being a very ethical company.


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## silentg

I know nothing about Tim Hortons, but reading this thread has me thinking. Are Krispee Kreame and Dunkin’ Dounuts Now owned by large Corporations too? What about Starbucks? 
When we lived in Massachusetts, Dunkin’s Headquarters were in Randolph, MA. The other donut shops were Mr Donut, Honey Dew and MaryLou. Dunkin’ bought all the Mr Donut shops. 
When we moved to Fl. In 1987 there was only one Dunkin’ Dounuts in our area and it was 15 miles away. Now we have 5 of them and a couple of Starbucks 1-2 miles away. 
There is also a local Donut shop that makes much better donuts, and we go there sometimes.
Just wondering how these other coffee shop chains are doing and who owns them?
Silentg


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## T-Dot-Traveller

CanuckTravlr said:


> That is not completely accurate.  The baked goods are partially baked at the distribution centres and then flash frozen.  They then use special ovens in the stores to finish ...........  IMO, they still tasted better when they weren't flash frozen!!



I met a guy who lost his baking job at a Tim's back when they switched . He and all the other  bakers who were let go - would likely agree.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

geist1223 said:


> Under the old owners do you know how they decided where to build a new Tim Horton's? It was how far a donut would roll from a current Tim Horton's.



At one point - there were 4 ( including the mini  ones in the gas station ) between my house & the QEW highway which is about 2 K 

IMO -It would probably take a 12 hours to drive to &  stop at every location in Hamilton ON ( their real home town ) .
r


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## geist1223

Dutch Bros got started in the Medford Oregon area and has expanded greatly over the past 10 years. It is better than Starbucks. I strongly dislike Starbucks' Coffee. I find it way too bitter. If we are buying cups of coffee away from home we try and visit small local coffee shops.


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## Ironwood

We have a couple of Starbucks locally, and while I like their offerings and ambiance, prices are ridiculous.  On a hot sticky day this past weekend, I asked for an iced coffee which was $4 and change.  At the counter, watching it being made, the cup was filled with ice and little coffee poured in.  I said whoa....ditch half that ice and put some coffee in the cup.  It was what I wanted at the moment, but I thought it was a little bitter.  While I complain about TH coffee, we are off on a driving trip this weekend, and there are 4/5 TH's nicely spaced along our route for the first day....so I will stop.


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## am1

Being owned by a us company then Brazilian company should have been the end of them.  Even before the latest tarriff  issues.  But people are like sheep.


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## CanuckTravlr

am1 said:


> Being owned by a us company then Brazilian company should have been the end of them.  Even before the latest tarriff  issues.  But people are like sheep.



So what's the alternative?  Starbucks or McDonald's...both big US-owned chains?  Unless you are fortunate enough to have a smaller local café or a branch of a more local, Canadian-owned chain (most of which have also been bought up by someone) nearby, most of the rest of us are between a rock and a hard place if you want a cuppa or a quick snack.  Principles are fantastic, but if no one is prepared to offer practical solutions or alternatives, it's just a waste of breath.  Just sayin'!!


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## MK15

Most Tim Horton's stores in Canada are owned by individual/local franchisees, fwiw.  They pay franchise fees to the parent corp, but they're not corporate-owned.


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## Ironwood

Well, back from a week away driving about 1000 km's round trip.  Despite all my criticism of TH, we did stop four times along the route and twice at McD, depending on which we found first when looking for a pit stop.  This time, I really couldn't tell the difference between coffees.  For us, it was just a matter of convenience.


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## MK15

Ironwood said:


> Well, back from a week away driving about 1000 km's round trip.  Despite all my criticism of TH, we did stop four times along the route and twice at McD, depending on which we found first when looking for a pit stop.  This time, I really couldn't tell the difference between coffees.  For us, it was just a matter of convenience.



My family and a lot of people we talk to prefer the taste of the McCafe coffee to Tim's.  Everyone at my work stops at Tim's out of convenience, but if McDonald's is an option, it actually tastes better!

It's funny traveling to the US though and noticing McDonald's doesn't really push their coffee / pastry menu the same way there that they do in Canada.  Tim's existing is a big reason they've stepped up their game up here.


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## Rancher

I go to McCafe now as there are more English speaking staff there now as opposed to Tim Hortons.


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## mowgli007

investment bankers took over the brand and then did whatever to increase returns on investment.. for ex.. switching suppliers, increasing prices, reducing quality and quantitiy, and then cashed out at IPO leaving TH in tatters.


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## T-Dot-Traveller

mowgli007 said:


> .   took over the brand and then did whatever to increase returns on investment.. for ex.. switching suppliers, increasing prices, r.



Hi mowgli007
Welcome to TUG - I see this is your second post .

Same thing can happen in the timeshare world / as an example :
see threads on Gold Key ( Virginia Beach TS system ) acquired by Diamond Resorts 
about 3 years ago .


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## DrQ

That's too bad. I spent some time in Ottawa in the 90's and I really came to like Tim Horton's.

This was before MehC Donald's stepped up their game with their coffee. I can't stand the the fru-fru drinks but it starts with pretty good coffee for a decent price.


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## Ironwood

Just back from another driving trip to visit family over the holidays.  Along the route we stopped at 3 TH and 3 MacDonalds and my clear choice is MacD!   Better coffee and cleaner premises....and the latter really stood out.  The three TH we stopped at looked tired, and were not as clean as they used to be....and we know these outlets as we stop there each trip in that direction.


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