# New Travel Warning for Mexico...Thoughts?



## Lingber (Aug 24, 2017)

We are planning a trip to Grand Luxxe Nuevo Vallarta in November and a travel warning has just been issued which includes the area:

*Jalisco (includes Guadalajara, Puerto Vallarta, and Lake Chapala):* U.S. citizens should defer non-essential travel to areas that border the states of Michoacán and Zacatecas because of continued instability. U.S. government personnel are prohibited from personal travel to areas of Jalisco that border Zacatecas, intercity travel after hours, and from using Highway 80 between Cocula and La Huerta. U.S. government personnel are authorized to use Federal toll road 15D for travel to Mexico City; however, they may not stop in the town of La Barca or Ocotlan for any reason.

Looks like Riviera Maya the language is slightly different:

*Quintana Roo (includes Cancun, Cozumel, Playa del Carmen, Riviera Maya, and Tulum):* U.S. citizens should be aware that according to Government of Mexico statistics, the state of Quintana Roo experienced an increase in homicide rates compared to 2016. While most of these homicides appeared to be targeted criminal organization assassinations, turf battles between criminal groups have resulted in violent crime in areas frequented by U.S. citizens. Shooting incidents, in which innocent bystanders have been injured or killed, have occurred.

We are sadly considering adjusting our plans. United has advised that we can change our flights. Anyone concerned about traveling to Mexico with this new warning in affect? Is travel insurance still available?


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## Passepartout (Aug 24, 2017)

There's another thread about this in the Lounge. It doesn't look like many TUGgers are changing plans. Still, like travel anywhere today, avoid crowds, be aware of your surroundings, don't flash a wad of cash or jewelry,  and consider staying close to the resort areas late at night.

Jim


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## hurnik (Aug 24, 2017)

It's not going to stop me.  If you're staying at the Grand Luxxe, you'll be fine. Nuevo is actually a bit of a jaunt from Puerto Vallarta, although I wouldn't have any problem staying/visiting Puerto Vallarta either.

Same for Riviera Maya (we usually stay at the vidanta complex as well but also like to spend an afternoon/day in Playa). I'm fairly certain the Playa incidents were the one during BPM where like 200,000 people come into the town and it appeared to be an argument over drugs at some nightclub or something (does that shooting in Miami, FL last year or wherever at that night club stop anyone from going to Miami?), and then there was the shooting at the courthouse, but that's not an area that a tourist is likely to go visit, IMO.

Travel insurance is always available, although cancel for any reason policies typically had to be purchased within 2 weeks of *initial trip payment*.

We probably have more shootings in Albany than Playa (I don't know about per capita).  Ironically I'd actually feel safer in certain parts of Mexico than certain parts of downtown Albany, NY.

If you're just staying on the resort, then you definitely don't have anything to worry about.  And even if you were venturing out occasionally still probably nothing to worry about as long as you use common sense.  (I wouldn't wander off all by myself in some dark alley anywhere in the world).

Unfortunately tragedies do happen, but these things cannot be predicted, and as we see nowadays, can happen *anywhere*.

It would be a diff. story, IMO, if there was daily shootings in these areas or you were traveling to say, a terrorist country and the US was evacuating its own ambassadors or something.


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## ibcnu (Aug 24, 2017)

We have no plans on returning to Mexico.  If you feel that the warning is not enough, I would steer clear of drinking anything down there.  Have you seen the reports of over dozens of tourists so far complained of being fed toxic drinks at both all-inclusives and bars/restaurants in Cancun and other tourist spots.  More reports are coming out about extortion involving all-inclusives and the hospitals as well as rape and robbery, most people report that they had 1 drink and blacked out.

No, there are plenty of other places I'd rather direct my hard earn money towards. 

With that note, if you still plan on going I suggest getting a VERY GOOD medical insurance policy with medijet service.  The horror stories of being extorted between the hospitals and the resorts is shocking.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/...mexico-suspected-drugging-tourists/490429001/
http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/...o-resorts-after-tourists-blackouts/513563001/


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## pittle (Aug 24, 2017)

We are in Mexico right now.  We drove to the Rosarito/Ensenada area and have been here 2 weeks with 2 more to go.  We are flying to PVR for 3 weeks in November and have reservations for Riviera Maya for 2 weeks in late April.  We go for R&R and do not go out at night and do not drink mixed drinks.  We have been going pretty much every year since 1992 so we have seen and done most everything. We just love sitting under a palapa while reading a book and listening to the waves roll in.  The Grand Luxxe in Nuevo is perfect for that!


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## hurnik (Aug 24, 2017)

Most of the alcohol issues appeared to be in Cancun and Iberostar in Riviera Maya (I didn't see anything specific to Nuevo or Puerto Vallarta) along with a few bars.  Haven't seen any incidents of Vidanta resorts being involved.  It's not uncommon for other countries hospitals to demand payment before being seen, so that's not unique to Mexico.  If anyone researches ahead of time (check the Hospiten website, for example), this isn't a surprise.  Their systems don't (and probably can't) tie into the US Insurance systems over here (heck, my primary care doctor still uses paper forms and submits later).

Travel/Medical insurance is a must, IMO, when traveling anywhere outside the US (and I usually get travel insurance even then because you never know when you'll get sick).

But these are risks one takes when going anywhere.  Everyone's comfort level is different (my roomate's mom won't fly on a plane because she's afraid of plane crashes).


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## easyrider (Aug 24, 2017)

ibcnu said:


> We have no plans on returning to Mexico.  If you feel that the warning is not enough, I would steer clear of drinking anything down there.  Have you seen the reports of over dozens of tourists so far complained of being fed toxic drinks at both all-inclusives and bars/restaurants in Cancun and other tourist spots.  More reports are coming out about extortion involving all-inclusives and the hospitals as well as rape and robbery, most people report that they had 1 drink and blacked out.
> 
> No, there are plenty of other places I'd rather direct my hard earn money towards.
> 
> ...



Many of the travel insurance companies will not take pre-existing conditions. A person needs to purchase this type of policy at the beginning of making payments for the trip as in the first two weeks. DAN (Divers Alert Network) has a yearly travel policy for divers. Most of the policies I have found exclude pre-existing conditions so Im glad I have the DAN policy in place before my reservations to Mexico.

Medical care is our biggest concern regarding Mexico.

Bill


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## pianoetudes (Aug 25, 2017)

I read travel article today, the murder rate is Chicago is 300+ in the past 6 month, compared to Quintana Roo 160+


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## itchyfeet (Aug 25, 2017)

Unless you belong to the cartel, no worries!


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## PStreet1 (Aug 27, 2017)

pittle said:


> We are in Mexico right now.  We drove to the Rosarito/Ensenada area and have been here 2 weeks with 2 more to go.  We are flying to PVR for 3 weeks in November and have reservations for Riviera Maya for 2 weeks in late April.  We go for R&R and do not go out at night and do not drink mixed drinks.  We have been going pretty much every year since 1992 so we have seen and done most everything. We just love sitting under a palapa while reading a book and listening to the waves roll in.  The Grand Luxxe in Nuevo is perfect for that!


You're in my part of the world!  Hope you are having a good time and finding some of the many good restaurants.
Pat


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## pittle (Aug 28, 2017)

PStreet1 said:


> You're in my part of the world!  Hope you are having a good time and finding some of the many good restaurants.
> Pat



We have - I still have the emails you sent me a couple of years ago.  Our favorite is Splash and we like Ana's fish tacos.


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## rpennisi (Aug 28, 2017)

We are still going to PV and NV for two weeks in January.  These gov't warnings should be applied to wherever you travel to Mexico, Europe, US, etc.
On Long Island, people are killed everyday by criminals.  Does that stop millions from going to the Hamptons and elsewhere on the Island?...no of course not.
The same applies to Mexico as far as I am concerned.  In 25 trips to Mexico, I have not noticed or experienced any problems.  While in PV, we love going to the Romantic Zone for dinners and walk around downtown and the Malecon.  

Interesting, on another note, on a recent visit to the Vidanta complex in Riviera Maya, every meal we had at the resort, the waiter asked before taking our order if anyone had any food allergies.
Also, beer bottles, cans were opened in front of us at the table, as well as wine bottles (as is standard everywhere).


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## PStreet1 (Aug 28, 2017)

pittle said:


> We have - I still have the emails you sent me a couple of years ago.  Our favorite is Splash and we like Ana's fish tacos.


That's good.  There are new ones, of course, in the last few years, but Splash is still our go-to breakfast spot.


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## easyrider (Aug 28, 2017)

One topic that many haven't discussed regarding safety in Mexico at the resorts are the many criminals that were deported back to Mexico from the USA. Most of these people grew up in the USA and are bi-lingual, so the businesses that cater to English speaking people hire these criminals. They have no criminal records in Mexico and employers in Mexico can't see why these people were deported. 

Bill


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## Ken555 (Sep 1, 2017)

http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-mexico-los-cabos-violence-20170901-htmlstory.html


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## Luckytimer (Sep 2, 2017)

We are going to Grande Luxxe in Nuevo Vallarta for two weeks at end of this month.  We are also going to Los Cabos for a week in mid January.  My biggest fear is the weather, not the travel warnings.  I feel the US has something to gain by putting out these warnings (and they know the warnings will be exaggerated and blown out of proportion) as Mexico relies heavily on  US tourists for millions of dollars in revenue.  That's my thought.


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## azdave (Sep 3, 2017)

Anybody that chooses not to travel to Mexico because of these articles probably should not travel anywhere. There is crime everywhere. Imagine if LasVegas posted travel articles about the crime that happens there everyday.  Beautiful cities like New York and Chicago have worse things happen every day, yet no travel advisories have been issued.


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## mikenk (Sep 3, 2017)

azdave said:


> Anybody that chooses not to travel to Mexico because of these articles probably should not travel anywhere. There is crime everywhere. Imagine if LasVegas posted travel articles about the crime that happens there everyday.  Beautiful cities like New York and Chicago have worse things happen every day, yet no travel advisories have been issued.



I agree, any crime in Mexico is considered a crime by Mexico. Last night in Dallas, a man was shot four times in his car by a drive-by shooter. No big deal - didn't even make the evening news. Imagine if that would have happened in Cancun; it would have been a lead story how violence is growing in Mexico.

It's just not fair; I think our media is too stupid or too lazy to even realize it.

Mike


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## MuranoJo (Sep 4, 2017)

mikenk said:


> It's just not fair; I think our media is too stupid or too lazy to even realize it.
> 
> Mike



Plus, some people believe anything they read or hear without checking it out further.  Of particular annoyance are those who simply object to MX for whatever reason without ever having been there.


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## Ken555 (Sep 4, 2017)

Rather than disparage the intelligence or competence of those concerned about traveling to Mexico, nor discount the warnings from our government, I spent a few minutes to look up the comparisons of crime between the USA and Mexico. Assuming the referenced site is accurate, there are many areas where it is definitively worse in the USA than Mexico. However, these particular items stood out:

Violent crime > Intentional homicide rate	
Mexico: 15 Ranked 1st. 3 times more than United States
USA: 4.7 Ranked 7th.	

Violent crime > Murder rate	
Mexico: 25,757 Ranked 2nd. 98% more than United States
USA: 12,996 Ranked 9th.	

Violent crime > Murder rate per million people
Mexico: 218.49 Ranked 17th. 5 times more than United States
USA: 42.01 Ranked 43th.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Mexico/United-States/Crime

* I believe these numbers are stale and it's likely worse than this shows. If any of you finds a better source with more recent numbers please post a link.

My only question is: are these accurate (or similar negative results) and if so, shouldn't that be of concern? Note that I'm not asking about the relative safety anywhere other than Mexico.

Also, the concern I have is that the trend for violent crime in Mexico appears to be increasing. Regardless of previous safety related comparisons, which appear almost equal in many respects between the two countries, I'm concerned about the increase in crime. Given the recent facts that violent crime has impacted tourist areas previously thought safe from such activities, I think any objective observer would be concerned about their safety in such areas in future.

For the record, I was in several Mexico cities earlier this year. I generally felt safe throughout, and penciled in a trip to the new Westin Los Cabos timeshare next year...but if the trend of violent acts continues as they have, I won't be going. And I won't rationalize going to Mexico by thinking it's as safe as at home. For one thing...I'm not fluent in Spanish (let's just say I know the basics) so in any emergency I wouldn't be able to communicate with others as I would at home. Having been in questionable circumstances in the past while abroad, I don't want to repeat it again by choice. So even if I have the unfortunate experience to be near another bad situation, at least I'd prefer having that occur in a region where I speak the language fluently. 



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## WinniWoman (Sep 4, 2017)

I feel the same way about places people travel to in the Caribbean, for example, where you are advised to just stay at the resort and not venture out and about. To me that says it all. That's always a no go for me.


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## mikenk (Sep 4, 2017)

Ken555 said:


> Rather than disparage the intelligence or competence of those concerned about traveling to Mexico, nor discount the warnings from our government, I spent a few minutes to look up the comparisons of crime between the USA and Mexico. Assuming the referenced site is accurate, there are many areas where it is definitively worse in the USA than Mexico. However, these particular items stood out:
> 
> Violent crime > Intentional homicide rate
> Mexico: 15 Ranked 1st. 3 times more than United States
> ...



Here's the problem I have with all of those general statistics. They too often reflect things that are really not relevant. Certainly the drug wars impact country wide statistics. USA wide homicide statistics mean nothing if I am choosing a trip to a major USA city versus say Yellowstone. Similarly, if I am going to Puerto Vallarta, I really (except from a humanistic perspective) don't care about the statistics impacted by the drug war areas. I would love to see reliable statistics about where I am going in Mexico or anywhere.

So then we get these warnings about drug violence spreading into the tourist areas. OK, give me the data. How many of the 10 million or so tourists last year were murdered? I googled a bit on that a few weeks ago and got one-off issues (2 guys were supposedly killed on a beach; a girl drowned based on tainted liquor (really?), some guy got shot in the leg near a bar), I don't get statistics; I get instances. One-off things happen every day in the USA with no mention; In Mexico, one event triggers an "increase in violence" warning. I would love to see real statistics on the areas I care about - but what we get is generally sensationalism from media and advisories from bureaucrats that I would suspect are just reacting to the media.

It would be interesting to see a serious study on who is safer, a family vacationing in a Mexican resort for a week or in a major USA city - considering murder, automobile accidents, and anything else.

There is also another issue to consider - targeting. In my experience in Mexico, tourists are not targeted for murder, robbery, or violence. Mexican people just don't think that way. On my experiences in major USA and European cities, tourists are targeted by people that want your money (pickpocket / robbery / kidnapping). Last week on a river cruise in Germany, our Viking crew continually warned us about pickpockets - I never worry about that in Mexico.

We go to Mexico twice a year and always mingle with the locals, when they tell us things are getting worse, I will start getting worried; I won't believe it from people who have never been there and who seem to have agendas.

Mike


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## PigsDad (Sep 4, 2017)

Excellent post, Mike!  I, too, wish they would publish some helpful crime stats against tourists by location, not just say "Mexico is dangerous".

Kurt


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## Phydeaux (Sep 4, 2017)

mikenk said:


> *We go to Mexico twice a year and always mingle with the locals, when they tell us things are getting worse, I will start getting worried; I won't believe it from people who have never been there and who seem to have agendas.*
> 
> Mike



Bingo! Same here. Well written post Mike.

We've been travleing to the region for the past 25 years, stay for 2 weeks, and have a rental vehicle for the duration. Each year logging thousands of km's in many off-the-beaten-path places. Yes, we've read the sensationalized stories about the things that can happen - has never slowed us down. We've made numerous friends there and remain in contact with them year round. We've never had a problem, so why in the Wide Wide World of Sports should I even give a rats a$$ from some nobody that has never set foot on Mexican soil? In two words: I don't.


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## Ken555 (Sep 4, 2017)

Mike's points are valid, and it would be nice to have accurate, more localized, statistics. Has anyone found any? Of any others to refute the link I posted? I'd like to see more recent and more accurate numbers, too. I think it's important to have valid facts that we may use to justify the warnings (or discount them) for reasons other than circumstantial anecdotal beliefs such as the feeling from locals about relative safety.

On a related topic, it seems many of you don't give credence to our government safety warnings. Is that for all of their warnings, or only those which you "know better"? For years many of you have ignored safety warnings about Mexico and posted that you know it's fine (this isn't the first thread on this topic)...to me, that indicates that your view is set on this issue as it doesn't appear you care what warnings are issued unless it contains sufficient details about the block or two you'll be visiting. And, of course, by Mike's response, and some of the other responses, it seems you think they (i.e. the government, State Dept, etc.) are the ones with the "agenda" you mention. I find that troubling on many levels.


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## mikenk (Sep 4, 2017)

Ken555 said:


> Mike's points are valid, and it would be nice to have accurate, more localized, statistics. Has anyone found any? Of any others to refute the link I posted? I'd like to see more recent and more accurate numbers, too. I think it's important to have valid facts that we may use to justify the warnings (or discount them) for reasons other than circumstantial anecdotal beliefs such as the feeling from locals about relative safety.
> 
> On a related topic, it seems many of you don't give credence to our government safety warnings. Is that for all of their warnings, or only those which you "know better"? For years many of you have ignored safety warnings about Mexico and posted that you know it's fine (this isn't the first thread on this topic)...to me, that indicates that your view is set on this issue as it doesn't appear you care what warnings are issued unless it contains sufficient details about the block or two you'll be visiting. And, of course, by Mike's response, and some of the other responses, it seems you think they (i.e. the government, State Dept, etc.) are the ones with the "agenda" you mention. I find that troubling on many levels.
> 
> ...



Let me give you a personal story. Remember a few years ago when the swine flu epidemic was becoming rampant and led most news stories - a media goldmine. I live in Texas; I think we were the first state to start having extensive cases. So here comes the government warnings: listed in the states in Mexico not to travel to was the state Cabo is in. We went anyway: guess what we learned when we arrived. There had not been any reported cases in that state at all - none. I actually don't believe there ever was one even after that. I fully believe these warnings are bureaucrats covering their collective asses based on media reports - not real data.

So no, I treat all government warnings as well as any media reports with extreme skepticism. I won't consider it valid until I can validate with data. I also believe in the phrase "you don't really understand unless you have "gone to Gemba"", that is, you have to go the the source to understand. Those of us that frequent Mexico are much better equipped to evaluate safety than people behind a desk.  I also consider what the locals know way more worthwhile than what bureaucrats think.

Do I find it troubling that most Americans think the media has become biased and untrustworthy and that government agencies make decisions without due diligence? Damn right I do; I actually don't watch National news media anymore.

Just my opinion.
Mike


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## Ken555 (Sep 4, 2017)

Did you read this in full? 

https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings/mexico-travel-warning.html

I find it interesting that much of this seems based on data from Mexico's government...not ours. Of particular note (for me):



> Baja California Sur (includes Los Cabos and La Paz): Criminal activity and violence, including homicide, remain an issue throughout the state. Exercise caution as Baja California Sur continues to experience a high rate of homicides. According to Government of Mexico statistics, the state of Baja California Sur experienced an increase in homicide rates compared to the same period in 2016. While most of these homicides appeared to be targeted, criminal organization assassinations, turf battles between criminal groups have resulted in violent crime in areas frequented by U.S. citizens. Shooting incidents, in which innocent bystanders have been injured, have occurred during daylight hours.



I'd still like more accurate statistics about each location, so if you find any please post them. 



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## Phydeaux (Sep 4, 2017)

Ken555 said:


> Mike's points are valid, and it would be nice to have accurate, more localized, statistics. Has anyone found any? Of any others to refute the link I posted? I'd like to see more recent and more accurate numbers, too. I think it's important to have valid facts that we may use to justify the warnings (or discount them) for reasons other than circumstantial anecdotal beliefs such as the feeling from locals about relative safety.
> 
> On a related topic, it seems many of you don't give credence to our government safety warnings. Is that for all of their warnings, or only those which you "know better"? For years many of you have ignored safety warnings about Mexico and posted that you know it's fine (this isn't the first thread on this topic)...to me, that indicates that your view is set on this issue as it doesn't appear you care what warnings are issued unless it contains sufficient details about the block or two you'll be visiting. And, of course, by Mike's response, and some of the other responses, it seems you think they (i.e. the government, State Dept, etc.) are the ones with the "agenda" you mention. I find that troubling on many levels.
> 
> ...



Many of us simply don't need or care about statistics. I don't check statistics or warnings about the US cities and states I travel to before going there either. I rely on my own common sense, and what _I_ know. I don't rely on someone else to tell me what is and what is not dangerous. I'll make those determinations for myself, thank you kindly. I also rely on situational awareness.

Life itself is not without risk. Every single time you start the engine of your car and leave your garage, you're taking a risk. Have you looked at those risks? Yikes, a person could drive themselves crazy if you need to analyze every move you make before doing so. No thanks.

As for these warnings about Mexico - I happen to agree that the U.S. over sensationalizes these and have been doing so for many years. Why? Because those U.S. dollars are being spent outside of the US, that's why.

To name just a few overblown BS warnings: Zika virus, swine flu, bad water, and the latest about "allegations" of tainted alcohol causing blackouts. Personally, I find the US State Department negligent, irresponsible and downright reckless to issue a advisory when the best they have are "allegations". Good grief! Not any proof of adulterated alcohol and they issue an advisory? Think about that for a moment. What's next, travel freezes based on hearsay??


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## Ken555 (Sep 4, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> Many of us simply don't need or care about statistics. I don't check statistics or warnings about the US cities and states I travel to before going there either. I rely on my own common sense, and what _I_ know. I don't rely on someone else to tell me what is and what is not dangerous. I'll make those determinations for myself, thank you kindly. I also rely on situational awareness.
> 
> Life itself is not without risk. Every single time to start the engine of your car and leave your garage, you're taking a risk. Have you looked at those risks? Yikes, a person could drive themselves crazy if you need to analyze every move you make before doing so. No thanks.
> 
> ...



Without going down a rabbit hole, could you post some facts about these warnings being inaccurate? I agree that some tend to be overly cautious, but I don't discount them out of hand as you do. And, I think you know, I'm quite well traveled...this isn't new to me at all, I've lived and studied overseas and been to many countries. Being aware of my surroundings is second nature to me, but I also don't invite trouble by going places where there are growing issues of violence when alternatives exist. And for a beach holiday, since that's primarily what I do when in Mexico, it's just not worth it to me...I'd rather go to Hawaii. In fact, that's where I am today. 


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## Phydeaux (Sep 4, 2017)

Ken555 said:


> Without going down a rabbit hole, could you post some facts about these warnings being inaccurate? I agree that some tend to be overly cautious, but I don't discount them out of hand as you do. And, I think you know, I'm quite well traveled...this isn't new to me at all, I've lived and studied overseas and been to many countries. Being aware of my surroundings is second nature to me, but I also don't invite trouble by going places where there are growing issues of violence when alternatives exist. And for a beach holiday, since that's primarily what I do when in Mexico, it's just not worth it to me...I'd rather go to Hawaii. In fact, that's where I am today.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




No thanks, I'll pass. You've obviously missed my points. Please, do stay away from Mexico. Yes, you have choices, and Mexico will not miss you.


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## Ken555 (Sep 4, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> No thanks, I'll pass. You've obviously missed my points. Please, do stay away from Mexico. Yes, you have choices, and Mexico will not miss you.



Um, no. I responded to your points by asking a relevant question. You are now doing me the discourtesy of ignoring my valid concerns. As in past threads, you give up when asked for proof. That says it all as far as I'm concerned.


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## mikenk (Sep 4, 2017)

Here is a journalist report that makes sense to me. You can generally make statistics say anything you want it to say. Until you have local valid data, you really have no clue as to relative safety. From a larger perspective, about 35 million tourists visited Mexico last year, how many were murdered, or robbed? Why don't we know that? My guess is very, very few.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/andres-oppenheimer/article169187707.html

Ken, I hope you are having fun in Hawaii, but in reality, you really don't know whether you are safer or not (robbery / violence / whatever) than you would be as a tourist in Cancun or Cabo or Puerto Vallarta. 

Mike


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## Phydeaux (Sep 4, 2017)

Ken555 said:


> Um, no. I responded to your points by asking a relevant question. You are now doing me the discourtesy of ignoring my valid concerns. As in past threads, you give up when asked for proof. That says it all as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



And if you go back and read my post above, I already wrote: *Many of us simply don't need or care about statistics.
*
Clear enough? 

If you want proof, how about showing some of the proof of tainted alcohol? 

And _you_ wrote: "_And for a beach holiday, since that's primarily what I do when in Mexico, it's just not worth it to me...I'd rather go to Hawaii." 
_
So why are you wasting your time here??


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## Ken555 (Sep 4, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> And if you go back and read my post above, I already wrote: *Many of us simply don't need or care about statistics.
> *
> Clear enough?
> 
> ...



There's a few problems with this attitude.

1. I previously posted that I went to Mexico earlier this year and that I tentatively planned to visit the new Westin timeshare in Los Cabos next year.

2. While you might not care about factual data in determining the accuracy of events, which unfortunately is a trend in our country these days, many of us do. If you want to convince us that you're right, you need data. Show me the data.

3. I never defended tainted alcohol, or any other incident. I never defended the State Dept or the government. I simply asked questions and was curious that you somehow know better than they...which is simply unbelievable, quite frankly. There must be reasons they issue warnings, and that's what we are (or I thought we are) trying to discuss. Stil, you try to deflect your inability to provide facts by trying to make me the bad guy in asking me to defend a position I never took. Nice try.

4. It seems every time there is a similar thread on TUG when you are asked to support your position, you lash out at others emotionally and try to deflect and discount their opinions. Well, sorry, that won't work any more. Either support your position with facts beyond anecdotal experiences or admit you simply don't know. 

5. Your encouragement of others to ignore governmental warnings could convince others to visit an unsafe area and get in trouble. I think this is simply absurd. The government may be overly cautious, but that's their job. They are trying to avoid problems, admitted in the warning that their staff may not be able to respond speedily to issues due to their travel restrictions (did you see that part?) and therefore US citizens should expect less support in the event of need.

I'm continually amazed that the apparent knowledge on TUG about Mexico is superior to that of the US government. I'd be more likely to believe it if you have facts to support your opinion.

So, perhaps next time you won't insult others and instead just say you don't know when, you know, you don't know. Since you don't.


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## Phydeaux (Sep 4, 2017)

I can find a number of problems with your attitude Ken, but I'm not going to waste my time in calling them out.

You've chosen to ignore what others have written, and instead appear intent on taking things personally, and allowing yourself to become offended. That's your issue, not mine.

You're big on the need for proof, so why not show us proof that you are safer wherever you are in Hawaii now than say Los Cabos. After you, please.

And since you felt I "lashed out", could you please provide an example? A copy/paste will suffice.


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## Ken555 (Sep 4, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> I can find a number of problems with your attitude Ken, but I'm not going to waste my time in calling them out.
> 
> You've chosen to ignore what others have written, and instead appear intent on taking things personally, and allowing yourself to become offended. That's your issue, not mine.
> 
> You're big on the requirement for proof, so why not show us proof that you are safer wherever you are in Hawaii now than say Los Cabos. After you, please.



Sorry, no. I'm about to head to the beach instead. 

I've already posted links and facts. You haven't posted any. In normal discussions, we exchange factual info and wait for the other party to contribute before spending more time on research. You haven't earned more of my time yet on this topic since you continue to insult me and others who agree with me by not doing us the courtesy of post any facts at all. At this point I think you just want to waste my time. It's too bad you can't support your own beliefs without disparaging others.


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## Phydeaux (Sep 4, 2017)

Ken555 said:


> Sorry, no. I'm about to head to the beach instead.
> 
> I've already posted links and facts. You haven't posted any. In normal discussions, we exchange factual info and wait for the other party to contribute before spending more time on research. You haven't earned more of my time yet on this topic since you continue to insult me and others who agree with me by not doing us the courtesy of post any facts at all. At this point I think you just want to waste my time. It's too bad you can't support your own beliefs without disparaging others.
> 
> ...




Predictable. When you cannot backup your own argument, you insult and retreat. Adios!


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## Ken555 (Sep 4, 2017)

Phydeaux said:


> Predictable. When you cannot backup your own argument, you insult and retreat. Adios!



Too funny! You're projecting...that's exactly what you did. We all know it...


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Sep 4, 2017)

Ken555 said:


> Mike's points are valid, and it would be nice to have accurate, more localized, statistics. Has anyone found any.   .........
> 
> it seems you think they (i.e. the government, State Dept, etc.) are the ones with the "agenda" you mention. I find that troubling on many levels.
> 
> ...



Which came first " spin or governments ?

What we are talking about is interpreting - history . Even if that " history " is last weeks news .
< and some folks may change vacation travel plans because of " it " >

I live in Canada and grew up in New York
Who " won " the War of 1812 - there are two versions of the answer .

Finally I will add - many of us on TUG were teenagers in the 1960's . Were there government "agendas"
then - I think so . Do those " formative years influence my critical thinking - absolutely .


I hope I have kept this non political & non - controversial .

If you are not confortable travelling to somewhere / anywhere  - find a different destination
We are booked for 2 weeks in NV / PV Feb. 2018 .


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## rpennisi (Sep 4, 2017)

I have been reading and writing posts on TUG for seven years, and traveling to Mexico for 15 years.  In those seven years on TUG, I have read thousands of posts.
I don't know if this is a usable statistic for you Ken, but I can't recall anyone ever saying they were drugged, served tainted alcohol, were robbed, assaulted or knew anyone who had been while in Mexico.

I can recall one instance of an iPad being missing from luggage.

There have been many posts of people being taken advantage of at sales presentations, but that surely doesn't count.

If we know that 10 or 20 million foreigners visit Mexico yearly and except for (from a previously referred to article) around 60 reported problems with alcohol and or assaults occurring that, to me, is a statistic that overwhelmingly shows that Mexico is safe for visitors.

To me, those are the localized statistics that many want.  Reports from Tuggers who visit local areas of Mexico (as I have) like Cancun, Playa del Carmen, Puerto Vallarta, Nuevo Vallarta, Mazatlan, San José del Cabo and Cabo San Lucas inform us that Mexico is safe for tourists.


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## easyrider (Sep 4, 2017)

There are many crimes committed against tourists in Mexico, no doubt about this. Considering that 35 million tourists visited Mexico compared to the maybe 1000 - 3000 reported crimes committed against this group of 35 million, the odds are pretty good that a tourist will safely come and go from a Mexican vacation. Add in the fact that most of the crime is committed against those tourists affiliated with the drugs, prostitution and organized crime make the odds of a safe trip even better for the average tourist heading to Mexico.

I doubt that crime is a big factor for safety in tourist areas Mexico. I think that accidents, medical conditions and age has more to do with coming home safely from a Mexico trip than crime. 

Bill


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## Ken555 (Sep 4, 2017)

rpennisi said:


> I have been reading and writing posts on TUG for seven years, and traveling to Mexico for 15 years.  In those seven years on TUG, I have read thousands of posts.
> I don't know if this is a usable statistic for you Ken, but I can't recall anyone ever saying they were drugged, served tainted alcohol, were robbed, assaulted or knew anyone who had been while in Mexico.
> 
> I can recall one instance of an iPad being missing from luggage.
> ...



I think anecdotal comments are valid but don't show the whole story. I'm not seeking problems, I'm searching for accurate info. 

As for these discussions on TUG, it's been obvious for years that whenever Mexico safety topics are discussed there's a core group of Mexico travelers that defend it regardless of the news. Those opinions are meaningless now since those individuals have never agreed there is reason to be concerned. It shows their lack of objectivity. For myself, I want to travel to Mexico (and have done so as recently as earlier this year) but there are definitively safer places to visit. I'm more than willing to be swayed based on evidence, and that's all I've been asking for here...and some don't seem to grasp that. I appreciate your comments.


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## x3 skier (Sep 4, 2017)

I refrained from entering this for a while since it is somewhat futile to convince anyone based on their personal feelings of safety or fear.

My 2¢ is in one year, out of some 20 or 30 million (pick your Million) visitors, 100 or 1000 or 10000 (pick your decimal point) incidents of tourists encountering some serious problem whilst in Mexico (U.K., Aruba, Chicago or wherever), would not deter me from a visit to just about anywhere I wanted to go for whatever reason I choose (except a war zone like Syria).

My first encounter of violence was when the IRA was planting bombs in London. Never really bothered me then and not much has since then because I might be run over by a bus at home tomorrow.

Statistics, data, rumor, warnings are just things to look at and make your own decisions. I even buy a Power Ball ticket once in a while with the odds of ten gazillion to one against me

Cheers


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## Ken555 (Sep 4, 2017)

x3 skier said:


> I refrained from entering this for a while since it is somewhat futile to convince anyone based on their personal feelings of safety or fear.
> 
> My 2¢ is in one year, out of some 20 or 30 million (pick your Million) visitors, 100 or 1000 or 10000 (pick your decimal point) incidents of tourists encountering some serious problem whilst in Mexico (U.K., Aruba, Chicago or wherever), would not deter me from a visit to just about anywhere I wanted to go for whatever reason I choose (except a war zone like Syria).
> 
> ...



I absolutely agree with you. However, facts and statistics, though perhaps incomplete, are still the best objective gauge for making the determination if it's safe or not, in our individual opinion. It seems a group here don't even want to learn those statistics, likely due to a variety of reasons, and which has changed the tenor of this thread from one seeking information to one debating the importance of facts itself. 

FYI, my early experiences abroad of violence occurred in Israel and also, like you, in London due to the IRA. Going to a "dangerous" area doesn't scare me unnecessarily, but I also don't voluntarily enter such areas if there are acceptable alternatives with less chance of an incident. Unlike others, I don't have my blinders on.


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## Quimby4 (Sep 4, 2017)

Our media does not even have the whole picture with the safety and medical concerns in Mexico. US Law Enforcement has been receiving special bulletins that aren't released to the public. Without going into graphic gorey details I will tell you that i have cancelled 3 trips to Mexico in 2018. I am losing well over $1,000 in points and fees.  Cancun, Puerto Vallarta and Cabo were our 3 destinations. Each person has to make their own decisions. Personally as a wife and mother, my life and health is too valuable to add the risk of traveling there. Pls save your Detroit and Chicago crime arguments, I dont go there either


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## klpca (Sep 4, 2017)

Hey guys, I don't think there's going to be any mutual agreement on a TUG thread about anyone's personal safety vacationing in Mexico. Everyone will make up their own minds using whatever data they find on the internet. For a more local perspective, I would suggest checking out the Gringo Gazette. That's the only English-speaking news source that I know of. I'm sure there's probably more I just don't know where they're located.

I looked up a news story recently to refresh my memory. There was a German tourist who was killed in a  shooting in Union Square in San Francisco back in 2010. It was a gang shooting, I think, and she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I would have thought Union Square (or San Francisco for that matter) was as safe as it gets. It really can happen anywhere.

Do I think that Mexico is perfectly safe? Nope. But will I continue to return? Yes. But I plan on sticking close to the resort. I don't speak Spanish which puts me at a distinct disadvantage, and I'm not really sure where the "bad parts" of town are, but I'm pretty sure they're not at my resort.

What I don't understand is why everyone is so determined to change everyone else's mind on an internet thread. Go if you want, don't go if you don't  want.


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## mikenk (Sep 5, 2017)

Ken555 said:


> I think anecdotal comments are valid but don't show the whole story. I'm not seeking problems, I'm searching for accurate info.
> 
> As for these discussions on TUG, it's been obvious for years that whenever Mexico safety topics are discussed there's a core group of Mexico travelers that defend it regardless of the news. Those opinions are meaningless now since those individuals have never agreed there is reason to be concerned. It shows their lack of objectivity. For myself, I want to travel to Mexico (and have done so as recently as earlier this year) but there are definitively safer places to visit. I'm more than willing to be swayed based on evidence, and that's all I've been asking for here...and some don't seem to grasp that. I appreciate your comments.
> 
> ...



We are all searching for accurate information - but we are not getting it. You seem to take the state department warnings and media news as facts; many of us see them as simply opinions that in our experiences are not valid. It in no way shows a lack of objectivity; it shows a sense of skepticism when what is presented does not match what we have personally experienced. BTW, anything I have personally experienced will always trump anything someone tells me not backed by real data.

Sure there are safer places to visit - the safest is to just stay home or maybe visit a local state park. It is certainly not to visit major US cities (see my earlier post from the Miami Herald reporter). 

Here is a homework assignment for you; Out of 35 million or so tourists that visit Mexico a year, how many are murdered or even robbed; how does that compare to tourists in cities of the USA or around the world. If you can't find the answer, then it is all speculation. You can certainly choose to make your decisions on the speculative opinions from others, but realize that those of us that have personal experience don't really value speculation that doesn't match our experiences.


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## buzglyd (Sep 5, 2017)

I think the only thing we can clearly state is that problems are rising. 

I just returned from Cabo San Lucas and rode out Lidia. It was a total mess there. 

We fished prior to the storm arriving and the captain clearly stated that crime has been increasing. He was thankful that the drug gangs were not engaging in extortion on small businesses in the area. (That’s a nice taco stand you have there. It would be a shame if something happened to it). 

I don’t thing the warring factions have any interest in tourists but caught in the crossfire still leaves you dead. 

There was a greater military presence in the area than I have ever seen so clearly the government is taking it seriously. It’s not just evil State Department innuendo. 

I caught six delicious Dorado so clearly I’m going to return.


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## mikenk (Sep 5, 2017)

buzglyd said:


> I think the only thing we can clearly state is that problems are rising.



Yes, I agree, I think it is safe to say that the drug warfare is expanding. The thing we don't know if that escalation really amounts to a higher risk level (other than miniscule) to tourists. All the warnings are based on a few more incidents in Cabo / Cancun so that you might get caught in a crossfire. You are way more likely to be killed in a traffic accident on the way to the airport than get caught in a gunfight, That said, in those areas, I would be more likely to stay nearer the resorts and not wander off to non tourist locations.

For me to stop going to Mexico, it would take more than just a few incidents, it would take data showing that tourists are being targeted and dying at an increasing rate - not just a few incidents.

In gun-happy Texas, there are growing incidents of drive by shootings (many road rage). I am not going to stop driving as the odds of getting shot is still minuscule; However, I certainly will keep my middle finger to myself to not be targeted.

The bottom line for me is I believe Mexico is realistically as safe for tourists as ever statistically. Certainly, I will probably not venture out as far as normal in those towns that have had incidences. I will continue to trust the locals as the best source of safety information. I will keep going as I love the resorts and the Mexican culture and people.


Mike


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## MuranoJo (Sep 7, 2017)

Quimby4 said:


> Our media does not even have the whole picture with the safety and medical concerns in Mexico. US Law Enforcement has been receiving special bulletins that aren't released to the public. Without going into graphic gorey details I will tell you that i have cancelled 3 trips to Mexico in 2018. I am losing well over $1,000 in points and fees.  Cancun, Puerto Vallarta and Cabo were our 3 destinations. Each person has to make their own decisions. Personally as a wife and mother, my life and health is too valuable to add the risk of traveling there. Pls save your Detroit and Chicago crime arguments, I dont go there either



Who is privvy to this info. (just law enforcement?) and how could we learn more about this?  Thanks.


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## Maple_Leaf (Sep 9, 2017)

Lingber said:


> We are planning a trip to Grand Luxxe Nuevo Vallarta in November and a travel warning has just been issued which includes the area:
> 
> We are sadly considering adjusting our plans. United has advised that we can change our flights. Anyone concerned about traveling to Mexico with this new warning in affect? Is travel insurance still available?


I'll take time out from the ongoing Mexico pissing match to address the OP's question.  Yes, traveler's health insurance is still available, however it's YOUR responsibility to check the details of your policy to ensure that government travel advisories do not trigger exclusionary clauses for benefits.


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## Hankmoon (Sep 10, 2017)

We were just at Vidanta Nuevo Vallarta. It was totally safe. The resort picks you up at the airport and they take you to their 2500 acre compound with lots of security. They have more security than any resort in Mexico. Vidanta/Grand Luxxe is one of the biggest companies in Mexico. You will feel safer there than anywhere in the world. We just went to Hawaii after Nuevo Vallarta for a week and we felt safer in Mexico than Hawaii. Hawaii felt more foreign and backwards than Vidanta. The Grand Luxxe is so luxurious and Vidanta is so high tech, you will be amazed. It makes Hawaii feel backwards and like a third world country! LOL


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## canesfan (Sep 10, 2017)

I think it's irresponsible not to heed the governments warning but they haven't said not to travel. It's a warning. We are going to Cancun in November and I'm comfortable with that decision. My daughter was at Rocky Point in March and at no time felt unsafe.  I told her we would address March 2018 in 2 months. 
As for asking locals for information I only trust that as far as I can throw it because they depend on tourism. They don't want to expose the negative when it affects their livelihoods. 
For me it's a combination of stats, being on the ground and trusting your intuition. I have another reservation for Cancun in April and we'll see if the situation has changed after my November visit.


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## Hankmoon (Sep 10, 2017)

Personally, I think if the OP is worried about traveling to Mexico, then he/she should not travel. There are certain places in the world I would not go regardless of what other people tell me, whether or not there is a government travel warning. Everyone has their limits. I was initially a bit worried about going to Puerto Vallarta after hearing about the US travel advisory but I had just been in Cozumel in May and had a great time so I figured not much could have changed so we went anyway. Guess what? Nothing has changed. Mexico has had the same problems for many, many years and I stopped traveling to Mexico for the past 15 years due to all the bad press about crime and drug cartels. Previously, I had been to Mexico about 6-7 times in the 1990s and once in the early 2000s. I just returned to Mexico this past May and I love it again. We are so impressed with the quality of resorts, the beauty of the land and ocean, and the warmth of the people (despite the political environment and bad press in the USA), that we are making Mexico our primary vacation destination going forward. Between last May and next January, we will have made 5 trips to Mexico: Cozumel, 2 trips to Nuevo Vallarta, Playa del Carmen and Cabo San Lucas. We haven't planned for next year yet but we expect we will visit even more!


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## Ken555 (Sep 10, 2017)

This thread is beginning to resemble some posts (on other sites) I've seen of people rationalizing why they stayed in Miami for Irma.


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## mikenk (Sep 10, 2017)

Ken555 said:


> This thread is beginning to resemble some posts (on other sites) I've seen of people rationalizing why they stayed in Miami for Irma.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Surely, you are just trolling; you can't possibly believe what you said. Moderators, can't you close this now nonsensical thread.

Mike


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## x3 skier (Sep 10, 2017)

Ken555 said:


> This thread is beginning to resemble some posts (on other sites) I've seen of people rationalizing why they stayed in Miami for Irma.



Staying in Miami when a disaster is 99% assured (storm surge, flood, wind, tornado or other weather extreme) vs a one in a million, 100000, ten million, pick your number, chance you might be a victim of random or planned violence are two completely different things. Conflating them is rather absurd to me. 

Cheers


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## Ken555 (Sep 10, 2017)

x3 skier said:


> Staying in Miami when a disaster is 99% assured (storm surge, flood, wind, tornado or other weather extreme) vs a one in a million, 100000, ten million, pick your number, chance you might be a victim of random or planned violence are two completely different things. Conflating them is rather absurd to me.
> 
> Cheers



Of course it's absurd. It also illustrates the issue with this topic.


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## mikenk (Sep 10, 2017)

Ken555 said:


> Of course it's absurd. It also illustrates the issue with this topic.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



huh!!!!!! You are agreeing what you said was absurd? How funny!!


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## Ken555 (Sep 10, 2017)

mikenk said:


> huh!!!!!! You are agreeing what you said was absurd? How funny!!



You obviously missed the point. Sorry.


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## mikenk (Sep 10, 2017)

Ken555 said:


> You obviously missed the point. Sorry.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



And your point was???


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## Karen G (Sep 11, 2017)

OK boys it's time to break it up and go to your rooms! Don't make me come down there!
I think we've just about beat this discussion to death.   Everyone has had his/her say.

Seriously, with our TUG admins in the path of the hurricane and me having knee replacement surgery tomorrow, I'm going to close this thread since we're getting thin on moderators to watch it.

Now behave yourselves!


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