# Should I really buy?



## lisilv (Mar 29, 2007)

Ok.. I know I have seen this question here before. I used to own a 3 bdr Platinum at Grande Vista, sold last year. I have been looking around and wondering, for the price I pay maintenance fees (800-1300 depending on the resort), I could rent a unit in many places, even all-inclusive resorts. Why should I pay 10k, 15k, 20k for a timeshare and be stuck with maintenance fees, lock off fees, exchange fees, II fees forever? Isn't a good idea to rent instead of buy? 

That way I don't have to be paying all those fees, they really add up. 
II fee - avg membership 80 dollars,
Maintenance fee - avg 800 dollars,
Exchange fee - 79 dollars
Lock off - I don't even remember how much, but is about 100 give or take. That's more than 1000 dollars that I will have to pay yearly, unless I go to the same place every year. 

I guess one of the benefits of buying would be being able to rent the resort, but that is kind of 'if' as well. 
Anyways, I've been wanting to buy a timeshare again, but I wonder if it's really worth it especially with the MF increasing in price so much, and obviously the high premium I have to pay upfront, then, I have to plan my vacation several months in advance ,even 12 months sometimes. I would like to see everyone's input.

Thanks in advance.


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## rsackett (Mar 29, 2007)

If you can rent where you want to go for just a little more than the fees that you would pay from owning, then I think the answer is obvious.  You should not own.  I own because the places I stay, and the time of year I want to stay there would cost much more to rent than I pay in yearly fees.

Ray


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## vacationtime1 (Mar 29, 2007)

I agree with your assessment that renting makes sense if most of your TS trips will be to Orlando.  The oversupply of TS in Orlando virtually assures you can get what you want when you want it, paying a price beaten down by oversupply.  And the fact that there will always be newer TS built in that location will reduce or preclude the minimal investment value of ownership.

Ownership makes sense where the supply is limited; renting becomes a less sure thing and you have a hedge against future inflation of vacation costs.


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## Michigan Czar (Mar 29, 2007)

I think others have made great points already but what I have to add is location, location, location. I myself would never own a TS in Orlando. I have three children and we went to GV for a week in a 2 bedroom that I was able to get on Ebay for $425 and I have purchased a getaway through II for a 2 bedroom at Horizon's for $1000.

I own a 2 bedroom OV at MOC, my fees are in the area of $1300 but I could easily rent for $2500-$3000 but always choose to occupy. My point is the same as others, buy where there is limited availability because I could never get a 2 bedroom rental at MOC for anywhere near the MF I am paying.


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## PerryM (Mar 29, 2007)

*Rent first, then buy ultra cheap timeshares...*

Renting MUST be investigated before OWNERSHIP of timeshares.  Once you have investigated the cost to rent and the flexibility you can then compare renting to ownership.

*I personally think we are in a “Timeshare Bubble”* and someday the entire industry could collapse like a house of cards.

How do I know we are in a “Timeshare Bubble”; simple:

1)	No one is talking about it (No Talking Heads on TV)

2)	Timeshares have experienced an explosive growth for 40+ years with no letup - EVER

3)	The housing industry is in a period of “Relaxation” now and has been many times in that same 40 year period.  Why do condos and homes experience periodic bubbles and not timeshares?

4)	Selling timeshares is very hard to do; only 1 in 7 qualified prospects ever buys a timeshare – this is with each getting a $250 bribe (the gift)

5)	The resale timeshare market is a cottage industry and once the bubble breakes it will completely drown in unwanted units being sold for $1 to get rid of them – hundreds of thousands of $1 timeshares could completely destroy the industry for many many years; if not forever.

*Rent First:*
You can rent any Marriott you want direct from Marriott or from many sources.  Same with Westins, Disneys, etc.  You can rent RCI timeshares for way below the MF the owner pays.  VRBO is a great place to rent.

*Buy Cheap timeshares resale:*
I only recommend cheap timeshares to folks now – WM, FF, and others that already have deep discounts in the resale market.  Basically any timeshare that sells for at least a 60% discount over the same unit sold by the developer is a candidate to be bought.  I personally expect WM to lose half it's current resale price in the next few years - just a guess.  (The new TEN program will accomplish this)

When will the bubble break?  I haven’t a clue – but this explosive growth can’t go on forever and it has already gone on way to long – when it does break the industry could be devastated to the point of never recovering.  This explosive growth has so far exceeded normal corrections that a crash of "1929" is in order.


This is just my personal opinion – I speak for no one.

P.S.
Forget about buying cheap timeshares for $1 – the very survival of the resorts will be in question.  Many could just close with owners not paying the MFs.  I would not wait to become a Donald Trump with $1 timeshares.  NO investor has ever bought a timeshare – you don’t make a killing owning 1/52 of a condo that you have no control over and is 400% overpriced to begin with.  After resorts reorganize and start to recover would be the time to buy cheap timeshares.  However there will be so much "blood" in the street that it will be almost impossible for folks to make that purchase decision.


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## msweaver (Mar 29, 2007)

I agree with the advice to buy a cheap timeshare week, especially with II membership.  You can get extremely cheap "getaway" weeks in Orlando through II.  Unless you plan to go to the same resort every year, I don't see it making sense to buy in Orlando.

As for the overall timeshare market, I'm no economist but I think the timeshare industry tracks the general real estate market at least somewhat.  In Park City, where I own at Marriott Summit Watch, Westgate Resorts is selling their current phase of 2 Bedroom Ski weeks for over $50K, and I'm told that they plan to sell the next phase of 2 Bedroom Ski weeks for over $60K.  That sounds crazy, until you see that new 2 Bedroom condos in Park City are selling for $1 million!  If the general "second home" real estate market crashes (which is certainly possible) I'd say that timeshares will follow closely behind and lose value as well.  Until then, I see quality timeshares holding their resale value.  I'm not selling my units anytime soon...


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## PA- (Mar 29, 2007)

lisilv said:


> Ok.. I know I have seen this question here before. I used to own a 3 bdr Platinum at Grande Vista, sold last year. I have been looking around and wondering, for the price I pay maintenance fees (800-1300 depending on the resort), I could rent a unit in many places, even all-inclusive resorts. Why should I pay 10k, 15k, 20k for a timeshare and be stuck with maintenance fees, lock off fees, exchange fees, II fees forever? Isn't a good idea to rent instead of buy?
> 
> That way I don't have to be paying all those fees, they really add up.
> II fee - avg membership 80 dollars,
> ...




For 99% of timeshare owners, who don't treat it as a business or spend inordinate amount of time, you'd be far better off not owning, and just renting.

Here's the prob.  The first time you have to pay $2500 to rent a christmas week ski resort that you could pay $1000 maintenance fee if you own, all logic gets thrown out the window and you forget opportunity cost on the money, plus exchange fees, plus, plus, plus.

It's so easy to buy timeshares, people don't keep track of all the costs.


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## Steamboat Bill (Mar 29, 2007)

I like the sport of timesharing as I feel I can get some limited control over my vacation dollars. Otherwise, paying cash for a hotel or two is lost money. 

Timesharing is kinda like Vegas....some people simply know how to play the games to increase their odds of winning and some people are always loosing money.


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## hipslo (Mar 30, 2007)

msweaver said:


> If the general "second home" real estate market crashes (which is certainly possible) I'd say that timeshares will follow closely behind and lose value as well.



If that happens I will become an eager, long term "buy and hold" purchaser.


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## hipslo (Mar 30, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Why do condos and homes experience periodic bubbles and not timeshares?



I purchased a small cottage at the beach in Delaware in 2000.  It roughly tripled in value between 2000 and early 2006.  Its value has now declined somewhat since the peak in early 2006, but it is still worth roughly 250% of what I paid for it.  That's a pretty good example of a bubble that is at least in the early stages of bursting.  I have only been involved with timeshares for around a year now, so I dont have the historical persepctive that you and others here have - however, has there been a recent six year period in which timeshare prices (developer, resale, or otherwise) have widely tripled?  And I am not so much asking about the very low cost units on ebay, but on the higher end, quality products - Marriott, Disney, Westin, Hyatt, etc.  Though I am not certain, I suspect the answer to that is "no", and I think that ought to be at least a partial answer to your question.  The timeshare (resale) market, to me, rather than going through a bubble, actually remains substantially undervalued, at least in certain situations, when compared to underlying real estate value.  (I know very little about the lower end timeshare market, and these comments are not really addressed to that segment of the market).

Though I could be wrong - have been before and certainly will be again!


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## PerryM (Mar 30, 2007)

*Jokers are wild....*

I wish I had actual sales figures for the timeshare industry for a long period of time; I suspect the chart would be going up and an accelerating exponential graph, like this one: DOW   However, this one shows hyper growth and some market corrections - the timeshare industry would look like a salesreps dream - 45º up up and away....


Because the timeshare industry lives in its own world that is 100% created by the developers they are NOT responsive to market pressures – just a make-believe world that the developers have created that seems to be insulated from the normal ups and downs of market forces.

“Price increase coming next Friday” is the only market force that seems to drive timeshare prices higher.  I’ve never heard of a developer reducing their prices to go along with real estate.

My point to timeshare owners is to NOT assume that the prices we see have anything to do with reality – we are living in a world created by the timeshare salesreps – the same one they create each morning as they drive to work.  Once we own a timeshare we want to live in that fantasy world to keep our resale prices high.

The rare coin industry went thru this exact scenario 20 years ago.  The previous 30 years had the coin dealers building their own world of prices – each year they went higher and higher with a guaranteed profit from one year to the next – sound familiar?  Well 20 years ago the Internet allowed consumers to chat among themselves and the market suddenly realized that they were 400% overpriced and the rare coin market imploded – it is just getting back to the prices 20 years ago today.

The reason Marriott can charge $35,000 for a Platinum week somewhere has more to do with the slick salesreps than actual real estate forces – this will someday come to a screeching halt and a rebalancing of the market will/could be devastating.

The entire timeshare industry, even resale prices, has a foundation made up of Jacks, Queens, Kings, and Aces – hopefully not too many Jokers.

Everyone should consider themselves warned by at least one timeshare owner who sees this plainly in front of me.

P.S.
If DOW chart does not show please see attachment...


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## Steamboat Bill (Mar 30, 2007)

One thing to consider is the effect of the baby boomer generation buyers.

It will be easier to convince them to buy a timeshare for $30k than it will be to buy a single vacation condo for $300k. This also applies to the DC industry.

In other words, the baby boomer generation may actually increase prices for timeshares until they get ready to sell. Thus, I thing the prices will be strong for the next 10 years and then may start a rapid decline.

Perry...did you buy a rare 1909-S VDB PCGS 65 Red in 1989? The stock market (Dow and S&P 500) have had wild swings, but are still near the peak.


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## hipslo (Mar 30, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Thus, I thing the prices will be strong for the next 10 years and then may start a rapid decline.



Personally, I actually hope that is correct.  Since that timeframe coincides, roughly, with my hoped for retirement horizon (or at least semi retirement - as I am currently only 41), it would be GREAT to be able to snap up some more prime weeks at bargain prices at around the time I will be in a position to begin enjoying them more fully than I am able to currently.  While I do not forsee that sort of a rapid decline at that time (reasonable people can certainly differ, and in the end it is really anyone's guess) it certainly could work to the benefit of those who buy to use (provided the product remains the same).


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## PerryM (Mar 30, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> One thing to consider is the effect of the baby boomer generation buyers.
> 
> It will be easier to convince them to buy a timeshare for $30k than it will be to buy a single vacation condo for $300k. This also applies to the DC industry.
> 
> ...



We only invest in Morgan Silver dollars MS65 and above - all certified and sealed in plastic.  The best coin we own is an MS67 and is a beauty that our son will inherit and hopefully pass on to his family.  This is one asset that does not have a yearly maintenance fee that makes your eyes water with pain.

P.S.
As a baby boomer there are many things I hope won't implode - Social Security is a great scheme that, hopefully, we will take out much much more than we contributed over the years - I have the same hope for timeshares.  But we have contingency plans just incase reality sets in.


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## PA- (Mar 30, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> ...
> 
> It will be easier to convince them to buy a timeshare for $30k than it will be to buy a single vacation condo for $300k. This also applies to the DC industry.
> 
> ...



Not sure I agree with the above.  It's a little hard to verify, since timeshares generally don't show up on MLS services enough to compare # of days on the market, sales prices, etc.  But my anecdotal experience indicates it's easier to sell a vacation condo than a high dollar timeshare.  Of course, if you're willing to dump it on ebay for pennies on the dollar, you can sell either immediately.

As for trying to differentiate between Destination Club and timeshares, that's a fine distinction that I don't believe is universally recognized.  A DC is a timeshare, as far as I'm concerned.  Before you object, try to sell one on the resale market (or through their sales force) that's been around for 10 years, and see what happens.


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## hipslo (Mar 30, 2007)

PerryM said:


> But we have contingency plans just incase reality sets in.



As with (nearly) anything else in life, NOTHING is more important that having contingency plans (almost goes without saying)!


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## jerseyfinn (Mar 30, 2007)

*Lisilv*,

I myself pick up an uneven vibe from your post. You used to own TS and you sell it because you're not comfortable with associated costs. A year passes and you're on the fence again.

As others have noted, you've got to have clear goals and reasons to want to own TS. The satisfaction ( or disatisfaction ) you receive as an owner is a direct product of your goals and expectations. 

As Randy Jackson would say on _American Idol_, " I don't know dawg . . . I'm just not feelin' it."   I don't sense that TS is for you at this moment.  As you note, you can rent or do dedicated trips. Better to lay back and determine just what your destination travel goals really are before plunging back into TS with the uncertainty you say you feel at the moment.

Barry


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## jerseyfinn (Mar 30, 2007)

*. . . Because the timeshare industry lives in its own world that is 100% created by the developers they are NOT responsive to market pressures – just a make-believe world that the developers have created that seems to be insulated from the normal ups and downs of market forces . . .*

Perry,

I share your view that TS is a "buyer beware" proposition. But so too is virtually any other purchase of substance that one makes. There's nothing new or different about TS and there are certainly no monopolistic TS robber barrons who deceive and steal from us. There is a market out there with a seller asking for the highest price ( just like a car salesman ) and a buyer looking for a better deal. The currency that Marriott uses to negotiate is MR points and other incentives.

I do believe that some folks err when they equate TS ownership with real esate ownership. Sure, you get a deed, but TS is not gonna behave as fluidly as an ordinary real estate purchase. One should not get into TS for that purpose. You get into TS for destination travel plain and simple and the ROI of TS is the comparative worth/value of your travels to you versus not owning TS -- in other words, TS is very subjective in character.

Remember, this so-called "TS bubble" is itself a product of the larger US economy and all of the dynamics and dangers driving it. We TS owners are a subset of subsets of buyers/sellers in a tiny niche of the economy. So yeah, if real estate drops or travel declines, we owners could indeed face new challenges.

I think you're absolutely correct to speak cautiously about the future of TS, but not for the reasons you cite. Truth is, supply and demand dictates to every market and every product. TS enjoys a period of seemingly unrestrained growth.  But MVC and all developers are encountering problems in finding prime locations at prices which ensure a profit. MVC would love to add resorts in Europe, but land is dear and prices nearly untouchable ( same problem in Florida where MVC would love to do another resort similar to Ocean Pointe ). Oversupply in specific markets is juxtaposed against high entry costs into other potentially profitiable, in-demand destinations.

And Marriott is itself redefining the TS game with the introduction of dual-purpose hotel/TS properties, increased emphasis upon EOY ownership or dual resort purchase incentives, and the limited introduction of a points system targeting Asian-Pacific buyers who don't traditionally travel in a weekly bloc and want a more flexible TS experience. TS is far from being a static, moribund product. But we as owners, do need to keep a finger on the TS pulse.

Should people purchase TS at this time? Hey, it's a question that one asks about any purchase. As you note, many developer prices are quite high at the moment.  An individual's goals of ownership remain one of the main signposts along the road of TS. High prices make ownership goals even more important. 

I myself would tell anyone pondering TS to take their time and set their goals and to do a preview of a resort destination that they will definitely feel passionately about.  And certainly, one should ponder resale vs. developer when establishing their goals. It remains buyer beware, but as consumers, we face this decsion every day and TS is no different in that respect. 

Barry


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## PerryM (Mar 30, 2007)

*Irrational Exuberance déjà vu all over again*

Barry,
Great points.  The one main point of my extreme caution of the timeshare market is something the developers hate to discuss – resales.

Because of this “Throw away” attitude of timeshares by the developers, the resale market is very thin and still a cottage industry.  This is completely opposite to the home or condo market – there is a very viable and robust market for used homes and condos.

This is the Achilles Heel of the timeshare world and what may eventually doom this experiment in real estate.  Timeshares were invented only a little more than 45 years ago and there is no guarantee that they won’t join the dinosaurs in the march to extinction.

Look at the hit the high tech stocks took starting in January of 2000 – there is a market that has a fantastic way for buyers and sellers to get together.  But that apparatus could not help a high tech stock bubble that detonated and lost 80% of it’s value and has yet to recover.

I can’t tell you what would set off the timeshare world – but the few timeshare resellers on their web sites would be instantly wiped out by the tsunami of sales, at ANY price, that would accompany a bursting bubble.

So who can we turn to and ask why they shun the resale market?  Who can we turn to for creating all kinds of marketing gimmicks that shun the resale market?  We all know it’s the loveable developers in their short term view to make short term profits that may just doom their own industry in the long run.

I’m the only one voicing this theory so maybe my warnings will go down with Chicken Little's.  However, as an investor I know what bubbles look like and feel like – just like the timeshare’s “Every year has higher sales – for 40+ years” – I’ve heard this type of  irrational exuberance before.


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## PA- (Mar 30, 2007)

Perry, the one thing that would indicate maybe you're overly bearish is that existing timeshares have ALREADY been depreciated by 75% or so, so how much lower can they go anyway?  At some price, people will be buyers.  Plus, since most timeshares are paid off, dumping them won't hurt the economy.  They won't cause mortgage companies to fail, or any such cataclismic event.  THey won't ruin people's lives or credit.


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## Steamboat Bill (Mar 30, 2007)

Perry brings up some interesting points, but I am still BULLISH on the near future for QUALITY timeshares like DVC, Marriott, Hyatt, etc.

DVC is a great model where MOST buyers (since 1991) purchased a timeshare from the developer (Disney) and can resell it for a PROFIT in 3-5 years after buying it. This model has not been duplicated by any other timeshare developer I know of. 

Of course, past performance does not indicate future success, but DVC was my first timeshare purchase in 2001 and I have bought 5 DVC contracts and sold 2 for a nice profit. In addition, I have easily rented my excess points for a nice profit whenever I had extra points that I did not use.

BocaBum99 is doing well with Bluegreen (buying resale) and PerryM is doing well with WorldMark (bought resale) and many are doing well with Marriotts (bought pre-construction).

Like everything else, buying at a good price is as important as selling at a good price. DVC just makes the process painless!!!!


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## PerryM (Mar 30, 2007)

*Saving the bacon....*

I still remember a good friend of mine calling that fateful day in Jan of 2000 – the very day of the high.  He had bought CSCO (Cisco Systems the internet folks) years before and it split and split and split and he had 80% of his retirement funds in CSCO – he was retired. 

I tried to warn him that we were in a bubble and that he should immediately sell half his CSCO and put it into something else – anything but another Internet related stock.  He never listened to me and was wiped out – had to go back to work.  He had over $1 M in CSCO that day.  He did sell his CSCO and is was within weeks of the low made several years later.


73% of all timeshares are financed – and only 7% are bought resale – this puts a huge debt with huge servicing at risk.  If those folks see a collapsing market, (Probably the first time they even thought of resales) they are going to be vulnerable to panic selling.

The developers created this market and are ignoring the very market that could save their bacon – the resale market.

But, I make my yearly warning and the timeshare market keeps making new highs in terms of sales each year – who listens to me?


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## PA- (Mar 30, 2007)

PerryM said:


> ...
> 
> 73% of all timeshares are financed – and only 7% are bought resale – this puts a huge debt with huge servicing at risk.  If those folks see a collapsing market, (Probably the first time they even thought of resales) they are going to be vulnerable to panic selling.
> ...



Even IF 73% of all timeshares sold are financed, the terms are usually 7 years or less.  If you go through II and RCI's directories, you'll see that timeshares less than 7 years old make up a very small percentage of the total units owned.  I don't see enough of an issue to have much effect on anything.


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## PerryM (Mar 30, 2007)

*Watch for the eyeballs....*



PA- said:


> Even IF 73% of all timeshares sold are financed, the terms are usually 7 years or less.  If you go through II and RCI's directories, you'll see that timeshares less than 7 years old make up a very small percentage of the total units owned.  I don't see enough of an issue to have much effect on anything.




True, but that's 73% of all developer sales last year were financed, and I think they are using 13.99% and 10 years.  Then there is the 73% from the year before, and so on.  Marriott will gladly buy a unit with a ROFR and turn around and sell it at full price with the financing added; the resort could be 20+ years old.

This is a very leveraged group of folks who have no idea that there is any direction but up up and away - just like the developers; and for that matter the average US citizen's debt up to their eyeballs.


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## winger (Mar 30, 2007)

There are many factors which may cause an TS implosion - a few I can guess are:

- improved information dissemination to the masses, mainly TS and potential TS owners, specifically around resale vs. direct developer purchase.  More resale means developers cannot sell for top dollar, meaning less profit. Less profit means 'why do it (build new resorts)' ?

- over supply of TS's.  The more TS become everyday commodity, the more reason NOT to purchase TS wholesale as I would think it would be cheaper to rent (Orlando comes to mind), thus no profit-motivation for developers to continue developing new resorts, meaning existing resorts are only options and they get older and older...means possibly less ppl going to TS...eventually even the TS resale market may suffer...vicious cycle.

- Prolong recession. Believe it or not, TS equates to vacation which means money spent from 'disposable' income. If recession hits, I will rather pay for bread and milk than a Marriott TS

just a few thoughts, I am sure more would come to mind later


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## Steamboat Bill (Mar 30, 2007)

Here is a scarry thought:

A $15,000 timeshare bought with 10% down and financed @10% for 10 years will have a total out of pocket cost of around $23,500

Then it may only be worth $10,000 on resale.

Check out this great loan calculator

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/popcalc2.asp


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## jerseyfinn (Mar 31, 2007)

*Money is made and lost at all levels of the food chain*

*. . . Like everything else, buying at a good price is as important as selling at a good price . . .*

Well put, Steamboat.

TS sort of falls into a grey area when it comes to cost/profit. Folks who don't understand that TS is really the purchase of destination travel are exasperated to see how much many TS's can depreciate. Resale is perhaps the best way to minimize this sort of shock.

OTOH, one can fare well purchasing developer if they time it right. Folks who purchased pre-construction or early in the life of Ocean Pointe ( prices ranging $14.4K to $19K ) will do just fine today if they should feel compelled to sell. So one can indeed break even or realize a small profit or slight loss and be completely satisfied in their purchase decision and ownership experience. This is true for several of the MVC properties and other select companies and resorts. 

The key is length of ownership -- the longer the more advantageous. And for those who learn the ins and outs of the MR points program, a points strategy is a complicated buy worthwhile means of extracting additional value from ownership over time, especially with multiple week ownership. Like life, things are not always straight forward.

As Perry notes, TS in general has grown explosively, and one is well advised to keep their eyes and ears open about what is happing within the larger TS market before they purchase. Folks who are going to purchase developer at today's (higher) prices can do so provided they are in it for the long haul and they select a resort destination that they are strongly committed to. Above all things, people should take their time and resist impulsive urges to buy. Sort it out in your mind, develop a strategy, and then make a decision to buy or not to buy.

Barry


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## bogey21 (Mar 31, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Forget about buying cheap timeshares for $1 – the very survival of the resorts will be in question.  Many could just close with owners not paying the MFs.



Perry - Most of the time I think your comments are dead on.  This time I think you are dead wrong!  Maybe at the high end where others trod, but I am retired and single.  I bought the following for between $1.26 and $267.00 and question if any will have to shut down due to non-payment of MFs.

         Pinecliff Village, Ruidoso, NM; Peppertree by the Sea, N. Myrtle Beach, 
         SC; Chateau Le Grand, Biloxi, MS (apparently being closed 15 months 
         by Katrina wasn't doomsday as it is now open again nicer than ever);
         Casablanca, Mesquite, NV; and Emerald Seas, Deerfield Beach, FL (an-
         other hurricane survivor).

I usually use them every year, but when I don't I dump them into my RCI Points Account via PFD.  Used some of my points just today for 4 days at the HGVC on the Strip for $79.

My point is that we all don't travel in the same circle.  I believe that for some (maybe even a selective newbee) the low end may be the way to go, at least in the beginning.

GEORGE


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## PerryM (Mar 31, 2007)

*Only time will tell...*

All I’m trying to do is to alert folks that the idea of “Price increase this Friday” is an illusion the entire timeshare industry has been built on and if there should be a “bubble” or an “Over supply” that the very reason we buy resale could pose huge problems.

Buying a used timeshare is such a great deal versus buying a used house because the home resale market is very large and robust.  The premium of buying a new home is offset with a mature landscape of trees and shrubs.  This also means that you can sell your home and expect to get a high resale value.

We get 50%+ discounts because the resale market is very small and not robust.  The exception to this rule is Disney where used Disney timeshares command 90% of the memberships sold by Disney direct.  The Disney folks are actively involved with the resale market of their product.

FF is on the opposite side – there your used FF weeks/Points are worth just 15% of the ones sold by the developer.  The FF owner actually has little to worry about a bubble bursting – his is already burst and as long as he doesn’t sell he can enjoy this unit.

The problem I’m concerned about is the relentless increase of timeshares in terms of units sold and price – there does not seem to be market forces at work here – just one group of salesrep increasing their sales price faster than another group with no attention paid for the underlying real estate.

Even if you look at a timeshare as a prepaid expense, and view it as you would a car, car prices are sensitive to the market – they do increase but there can be offsetting benefits like 0% financing that actually reduce their net relative price from one year to the next.  This is never seen in timeshares – I’ve never seen a timeshare ever get cheaper for a sale price.

If there should ever be a problem in the timeshare world and folks flood the resale market with sales the resulting decline will be like FF – 85% loss on the resale price.  If this should happen and owners stand fast and don’t panic and pay their MFs the timeshare industry will do just fine.

However I’m guessing that if there is a glut of timeshares and a bubble breaks and every timeshare is worth 15% of current sales the developers could find it very difficult to sell their product.  Would this result in a panic and the general public believing that timeshares are to be avoided?  I don’t know.

But I am alarmed enough that we sold our expensive Marriotts and bought cheap WM credits to lessen any impact to us.  Only time will tell if my words of caution were justified or if timeshares are so different that market forces have little impact on them.


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## Steve (Mar 31, 2007)

*Another view...*



PerryM said:


> But I am alarmed enough that we sold our expensive Marriotts and bought cheap WM credits to lessen any impact to us.  Only time will tell if my words of caution were justified or if timeshares are so different that market forces have little impact on them.



The irony in this is that I think WorldMark is far more likely to crash and burn than Marriott is.  You sold your Marriotts for a profit.  On another BBS you stated that you were starting to liquidate your WorldMark holdings.  Can you sell them for a profit today?  I kind of doubt it. 

I'm currently in the process of purchasing a WorldMark ownership...so I'm not anti-WorldMark.  But I think your strategy is flawed.  In the event of a major upheavel in the timeshare industry, not every timeshare will go belly up.  Some will survive...and even thrive...at the expense of the rest. Indeed, there would likely be a "flight to quality".  This might actually help Marriott timeshares...as owners of Fairfield, WorldMark, Sunterra, independent resorts, etc seek a safe haven.

Steve


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## PerryM (Mar 31, 2007)

Steve,

I’m looking at liquidating our WM credits, not our TrendWest fractionals with the new introduction of TEN (The Exchange Network).  80% of our WM ownership is with those fractionals that can be converted to WM Trade Points.  I haven’t pulled the trigger yet, the info on TEN is still too sketchy – but I do fear for the worst. TEN is just 3 weeks old and if I detect that WM credits might slip much below 70¢ a credit from the major resellers, we will sell.  Since we own a NHK (No House Keeping) account we should still make a profit.

If I am correct, about a bubble, I would not want to then guess what timeshares will or will not survive or even thrive.  As to what others should do – that’s up to individual owners.  As of today only about 10% of our vacation/retirement usage is in timeshares to begin with.  The rest is in a second home, 4 fractionals, and 2 condo-hotels.  The IntraWest condo-hotel will exchange like a timeshare into other resorts if we want.


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## hipslo (Mar 31, 2007)

This has been a very interesting thread, and it is fascinating to read the various points of view.  Only time will tell, of course, as to which point of view is closest to the mark.  

One aspect of all of this seems fairly self evident to me, however.  For folks whose long term desire is to purchase to hold and use over the long haul, and are accordingly not as concerned about resale value on exit, I have a hard time seeing, at least in the higher end properties, how they could be too seriously disappointed.  It seems that for them (and I count myself among that group), the biggest risk in the event that the sort of "melt down" scenario that PerryM and some others forsee occurs is that folks will stop paying MFs and the resorts will go belly up.  Anything short of that, even very large declines in resale value, wouldnt be too much of a problem.  However, at least at the higher end properties, prices (even resale prices) have quite a long way to fall before they reach a zero or nominal level, and at some point, I would think that there would be buyers willing to step up at the new, perhaps substantially lower levels, and pay the MFs in order to have the privilege of occupying what still ought to be some pretty nice properties in some very nice locales.  So long as this is borne out, then those who buy to use ought to make out just fine, and in fact could view such a "melt down" as a buying opportunity.  Now I admit I haven't pondered every last angle that might apply here, but so far I feel reasonably comfortable with that view.

By the way, if things were SO bad that the resorts did start to go belly up, given the very valuable land that many of the high end properties sit on, if the properties were simply liquidated and the TS totally shut down, it seems that owners could still make out reasonably well, though they'd no longer own what they thought, and hoped, they'd own, for the long term.  But I just have a hard time seeing the value fall so far that it becomes so low as to be only nominal, given that at the end of the day, in a worst case scenario, there are "real" assets that underly these 1/52 deeds we all hold.  (Ironically, that may be the only scenario in which those little slivers of real ownership actually mean anything!)

Ok, Perry, fire away!


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## PerryM (Mar 31, 2007)

*I'm scared, confused, and jubilant - all at the same time!*

What is so interesting about the timeshare market now is that meltdowns are now occurring.  FF is the leader in the meltdown department.  Buy a FF week/points today and as the ink dries you lose 85% of your value.  This does not seem to deter ongoing sales or usage.

This is what’s so interesting about this market.  If anything does happen to the timeshare market it could be in a form we have never witnessed before.  Just like the stagflation of the 1970’s the timeshare world could experience something brand new in the way of a gut wrenching meltdown.  I suspect this is what might eventually happen – something totally unexpected.

If other industries could duplicate what is now happening to timeshares we would see copycat markets.  Imagine buying a used car for $35,000 and as you turn the engine on it’s only worth $5,000?   Then to top it off, no one cares!

I don’t pretend to understand the timeshare market – I just try to exploit it the best I can.  In the 7 years we have owned timeshares I’ve completely changed the way I view them and use them.  I still abuse them all the time and enjoy the lopsided exchanges and other forms of usage.  Its just the more I sit back and try to make sense of the entire industry the more scared I get.  However, I'm still happy with our timeshare usage!

Go figure....


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## pwrshift (Mar 31, 2007)

PerryM said:


> ....As of today only about 10% of our vacation/retirement usage is in timeshares to begin with. The rest is in a second home, 4 fractionals, and 2 condo-hotels. The IntraWest condo-hotel will exchange like a timeshare into other resorts if we want.


 
Perry, about a year ago in a thread on Timeshares vs. Destination Clubs, Fractional, etc., you were all over the condo-hotel business, especially in Hawaii. Have you had second thoughts on them as I thought you'd have a dozen of them by now? 

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32143&highlight=condo+hotel


I guess the jury is still out on condo-hotels as to whether they were a good buy in pre-construction and whether or not they will make money for the owners long term...but would like to know our present thoughts.  When I was in Fort Lauderdale recently I saw that Trump (who is building two condo-hotels there right now) was now offering them as fractional ownership -- yet a year ago I had heard that they were all sold out at $1200 a sq ft.

Brian


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## Quilter (Mar 31, 2007)

PerryM said:


> We get 50%+ discounts because the resale market is very small and not robust.  The exception to this rule is Disney where used Disney timeshares command 90% of the memberships sold by Disney direct.  The Disney folks are actively involved with the resale market of their product.



What kind of commission does Disney charge it's owners to resale their ownerships?


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## m61376 (Mar 31, 2007)

Perry- I'd venture to guess that the reason why the huge loss in value for properties such as FF does not deter buyers is not that most don't care but, rather, that most don't know. I would venture to guess that since only 7% of timeshare purchases are resale that over 90% of people are unaware of the resale market and, moreover, many that are aware are convinced you are getting a lesser product. Hey- talk to a Marriott salesperson- they'll have your head spinning that not buying directly from them is a huge mistake that 90% of the people who do buy resale come back and regret (as I was told).

Even educated consumers are willing to pay more for a Marirott, DVC, etc., because they feel there is a difference. I am not debating as to whether the expenditure warrants the difference, but just as a Lexus and Toyota are basically the same car, some people are willing to pay extra for the amenities.

As to market pricing and being incredulous that the pricing just goes up irregardless of real estate value- well, the same thing can be said for hotel and other vacation expenses. As long as people covet a destination and are willing to pay to go there the prices will be sustained. If the economy takes a dive and disposable income diminishes, then all parts of the travel industry will suffer. On the other hand, timeshares that are already owned may be even more appreciated, because once the initial outlay is finished, the availability of a kitchen can really curtail vacation expenses as needed. 

I appreciate your viewpoints and posts. If nothing else, they give us food for thought and a bit of cynicism helps keep us grounded  . Hey- you're amazed at the escalating prices of timeshares, which at least impart some real equity...look at the number of people jumping on the destination club bandwagon, grateful to get in before the next price increase (look at all the HCC discussions); there is no real "ownership" there and yet it is very attractive. I think the reason why purchasing seems to defy reason is that vacationing fills an emotional need which you can't always put a pricetag on.


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## bogey21 (Mar 31, 2007)

hipslo said:


> By the way, if things were SO bad that the resorts did start to go belly up, given the very valuable land that many of the high end properties sit on, if the properties were simply liquidated and the TS totally shut down, it seems that owners could still make out reasonably well, though they'd no longer own what they thought, and hoped, they'd own, for the long term.



Seems that you guys are not interested in my low-end stuff, but what you say about the value of the property can have a much higher multiple when buying $250 Weeks.  For example in the year 2030 a majority vote of the owners at my beachfront resort in Deerfield Beach will vote whether to continue as a timeshare or dissolve and sell.  Based on the adjoining land values my $250 Week should be worth $7,000.  My beachfront Peppertree by the Sea Week in North Myrtle Beach is right next to and shares the beach with a Fairfield.  So in a worst case senario the Fairfield depriciates from $10,000 (or whatever) to its land value, say $1,000.  I guess that means my $250 Week appreciates 400%!!

GEORGE


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## hipslo (Mar 31, 2007)

bogey21 said:


> Seems that you guys are not interested in my low-end stuff, but what you say about the value of the property can have a much higher multiple when buying $250 Weeks.  For example in the year 2030 a majority vote of the owners at my beachfront resort in Deerfield Beach will vote whether to continue as a timeshare or dissolve and sell.  Based on the adjoining land values my $250 Week should be worth $7,000.  My beachfront Peppertree by the Sea Week in North Myrtle Beach is right next to and shares the beach with a Fairfield.  So in a worst case senario the Fairfield depriciates from $10,000 (or whatever) to its land value, say $1,000.  I guess that means my $250 Week appreciates 400%!!
> 
> GEORGE



Right!  And there are plenty of examples out there with very similar economics.  It makes for at least a bit of peace of mind in a true "worst case" scenario.  Granted this will not be the case for every resort, but for those that are in prime locations that are in limited supply (beachfront, ski in/out, etc), it ought to serve as a nice backstop against a total collapse in values, even to the extent of loss of viability as an ongoing TS project.


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## PerryM (Mar 31, 2007)

*Two too low to?*

Brian,

Gee, 2 condo-hotels aren’t enough?

Right now there is a “pause” in real estate so finding things that can be flipped for big money with little risk is tough to do.  The right kind of condo-hotel is still a great way to vacation – if you want to come back to the same place many times during the year.

I just reviewed the latest rental agreement on our Honua Kai condo-hotel which we close in Jan of 2009 – a full 3 year build cycle – this is optimum.  The rental agreement is truly fantastic and very favorable to the owner (a true 50/50 split).  Our condo-hotel in Daytona Beach is much less favorable and actually comes out to be (55/45 in favor of the rental company).  However, we use the unit and get some rental income to offset our mortgage payment.

So I’m still up on condo-hotels and recommend that folks investigate them – you need to get experience in how they operate and how you would use them.  When the real estate cycle starts up again, which it will, it’s too late then to learn all this stuff.  Condo-hotels in Hawaii are exactly the same as normal condos.  This is NOT true in Florida – they are two different animals.  You need to think 5 years of usage then sell it.

I’ll go out on a ledge and predict that the real estate market will fire up and break all kinds of records shortly – by the end of this year.  If I’m right I’ll take full credit for saving the industry, and if I’m wrong who really cares? 

Destination Clubs to me should be the next wave of hot activity.  If done right, and based upon 100% equity in the property bought, these things can explode and become something very desirable by the baby boomers – which I am one.

It would not take very much to convince me to buy a Destination Club if I could profit from the real estate appreciation - I think this is a wide open market and has many years of interesting growth ahead of it.  We will probably become Destination Club owners within 5 years.

Right now the folks starting the Destination Clubs are just too greedy - there needs to be significant competition for this to happen.  Right now DCs are mainly geared towards folks where $250k is nothing to worry about.  As we all know the real market is for folks where a DC membership is about twice the price of the car they drive - about $100k.  That would result in a $800k condo in some very nice locations.


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## hipslo (Mar 31, 2007)

PerryM said:


> I’ll go out on a ledge and predict that the real estate market will fire up and break all kinds of records shortly – by the end of this year.



No chance!  Much too short a time frame.





PerryM said:


> Destination Clubs to me should be the next wave of hot activity.  If done right, and based upon 100% equity in the property bought, these things can explode and become something very desirable by the baby boomers – which I am one.





Agree 100%


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## pwrshift (Mar 31, 2007)

*Destination Clubs - the wave of the future??*

Tell us about Destination Clubs - the ones you'd look at seriously and why they might get hot.    

Brian


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## m61376 (Mar 31, 2007)

PerryM said:


> It would not take very much to convince me to buy a Destination Club if I could profit from the real estate appreciation - I think this is a wide open market and has many years of interesting growth ahead of it.  We will probably become Destination Club owners within 5 years.
> 
> Right now the folks starting the Destination Clubs are just too greedy - there needs to be significant competition for this to happen.  Right now DCs are mainly geared towards folks where $250k is nothing to worry about.  As we all know the real market is for folks where a DC membership is about twice the price of the car they drive - about $100k.  That would result in a $800k condo in some very nice locations.



It will be interesting to see how they develop. I agree with you 100% that the real attraction would be members sharing in equity so that the club is somewhat of an investment. However, that doesn't seem to be the present model for most of the clubs. As long as investors are willing to buy into clubs without the benefit of appreciation there is no reason for DCs to develop that way. So- I think not only will the developers have to be less greedy, but the prospective members think more like purchasers and be more demanding.


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## KenK (Mar 31, 2007)

SE Florida:

I know the price of insurance for a $500,000 home E of I 95 is approx $10,000 to $15,000. (For some reason, however, windstorm insurance is more west of I 95).  The RE tax on $500,000 is approx 2% = $10,000.  Yearly maint will be up to where you buy.  In the Harbor Mansion area of Hollywood, it is near $8000 a year. (Least expensive house is approx $500,000...no dock...no pool on house property)

So, before anything happens with the purchase of property, a purchaser needs to know the fees before the mortgage.  I don't know many of my friends who can or will buy (or are are able to buy) with all those fees attached.

(I must hang in the wrong groups).   I don't see even the above average income earner rushing out for real estate in a hurry......I don't think the RE market will recover so fast as Perry thinks. unless stuff ($$$)comes down. 

I just don't think most people are able to pay as much as is requested.


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## Lisa P (Mar 31, 2007)

Quilter said:


> What kind of commission does Disney charge it's owners to resale their ownerships?



Disney does not resell for a commission.  They act on their ROFR.  So whenever a member has a written agreement to resell a points contract to a buyer they've found (on their own or with an outside resale broker), the sales agreement must be reviewed by Disney.  If the price is below the going ROFR rate, Disney purchases the contract at the agreed sales price.  The member gets his money and the buyer is out of the picture.  Disney then resells the points at the current developer price.


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## PerryM (Mar 31, 2007)

*Destination Clubs 101*

Brian,

I describe in the “Non-Traditional Interval Ownership” forum how I, or anyone, could start a Destination Club (DC) in 1 month.  It isn’t hard and is crying for someone to just take over the entire DC industry – Marriott could do this if they wanted.

Right now there isn’t one that I’d buy into – BelleHavens is the closest but membership costs $200k to join and $17.5 k in MFs per year.  I just don’t feel comfortable in “pulling the trigger” even on this one.

The way DCs work now is kind of like how II works – it’s all a big secret and there is a real possibility that you could get screwed.  There is NO reason why all the workings of the DC are not described in the Membership Application.

I foresee the day when Marriott is hot and heavy into the Destination Club (DC) industry.  They could easily build the next Marriott resort as one.  The switch from timeshare to DC would be easy and very favorable to the owners and Marriott.  Marriott or Westin or any large and well known developer could own the entire DC industry in a month if they wanted.  Those loveable salesreps are still selling and making big bucks.

*Destination Club 101:*

Instead of 50 owners per condo there are just 8 owners.  Instead of being tied to a fixed resort you own a membership to all resorts.  Instead of not participating in real estate appreciation you get 80% of it.

What’s in it for Marriott?  Marriott builds resorts like they always have – or they can buy homes or condos.  They make a profit from the building, just like your developer of your house.  They also make a fee managing the DCs and make 20% from any sale back to them.

Imagine this:
Marriott calls you and says next week you can be skiing in Vail or Park City or on the beach on Maui.  They just bought 100 condos at $1 M each and are selling 800 memberships – do you want to join?  Your cost is $125k plus 8% MF or $10k per year.  They estimate all 800 sold by the weekend.

*You get 28 days of usage *– 4 weeks at any of the 100 condos and 2 of those weeks can be holiday weeks.  The same holiday weeks can not be on the same holidays in a row.  i.e. You can book Christmas and 4th of July this year but not next year but can the year after that.  Reservations begin 6 months before check-in and you have 1 week to make the reservation - if there are other members who want the same unit and week, the lowest  membership number (oldest membership who has never booked that unit and week) get’s the reservation.

You can rent your reservation out for whatever you can get; or invite friends to stay.


The remaining 141 days per year per condo can be booked at a flat rate – in up to 7 days per reservation.  Half that money goes to the developer; half goes towards reserves for furniture, fixtures, and equipment.  Bookings start 90 days before check-in.  Once again 1 week open for reservations and the lowest member number get's the reservation. (Who has not booked short term usage at that condo)  You could book unlimited usage if you want if others don't want the time.

What makes the DC work is the “*Theory of Equals*”.  This states that the appraised value of any NEW condo, now or in the future, must be equal to the appraisal of all deeds divided by the number of members.  On Day One this might be $1 M per condo and 8 members per condo or $125k.  5 years from now the appraised value could be $2 M per condo (average) and 8 members per condo or $250k.  New memberships would cost $250k and folks selling their membership would get 80% of that or $200k on a 3 in and 1 out basis.

I would be their #1 member.  The faster you jump on the bandwagon the higher your membership priority in reservations and the more you get to participate in real estate appreciation.

Marriott or Westin or anyone could do this very quickly and define the DC industry.


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## Potential Buyer Scott (Mar 31, 2007)

It seems to me that each resort is different.  Some are worth buying and some are not.

I think that a lot of the best deals are on the high end in limited supply areas such as platinum ocean front at Grande Ocean or platinum at Park City.

If you calculate the interested after tax you could have earned on your investment and then add your maintenance fee, you couldn't get a comparable rental for that price.  I think low end units can often be rented for the price of MF's and in that case, there is no benefit to owning.

For example, say you bought MGO Plat. OF for $30,000 (probably a little less if you negotiate).  At 5% you could have earned $1,500 on your money and would end up with about $1,150 after tax.  MF is another $850. That brings total cost to $2,000. for a 1,400 square foot oceanfront 2 bedroom on HHI.  No way to rent it for that in peak season.

Do you agree?


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## hipslo (Mar 31, 2007)

Potential Buyer Scott said:


> I think that a lot of the best deals are on the high end in limited supply areas such as platinum ocean front at Grande Ocean or platinum at Park City.
> 
> If you calculate the interested after tax you could have earned on your investment and then add your maintenance fee, you couldn't get a comparable rental for that price.



I agree with this completely.  What I would add, as well, though it ought to be self evident, is that as time goes by and, over the long term, rental rates rise, the advantage of owning over renting becomes larger and larger.  This would be the case even in the face of rising mf's,  since they comprise only a portion of the cost of occupancy, while the after tax interest component remains fixed. Of course, if rental rates were to drop precipitously for some reason, all bets are off.  However, over the long term, this strikes me as unlikely, from an historical perspective.


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## taffy19 (Apr 1, 2007)

bogey21 said:


> Seems that you guys are not interested in my low-end stuff, but what you say about the value of the property can have a much higher multiple when buying $250 Weeks. For example in the year 2030 a majority vote of the owners at my beachfront resort in Deerfield Beach will vote whether to continue as a timeshare or dissolve and sell. Based on the adjoining land values my $250 Week should be worth $7,000. My beachfront Peppertree by the Sea Week in North Myrtle Beach is right next to and shares the beach with a Fairfield. So in a worst case senario the Fairfield depriciates from $10,000 (or whatever) to its land value, say $1,000. I guess that means my $250 Week appreciates 400%!!
> 
> GEORGE


You are so right, George. Location of real estate is what counts most of all and not buying from big developers mainly. It really doesn't matter if the resort is a Westin, Marriott or FF or a tiny little independent resort if it is right on the ocean. 

Fee simple ocean front property has the most value of all on the east or west coast in the USA besides property values in the heart of some of the major cities in this country. That has already been proven too with fee simple timeshare resorts in San Francisco, Boston or New York and London too overseas.   

Your timeshare owners hold a great real estate value in hand in 2030.


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## jerseyfinn (Apr 1, 2007)

*It's an educated guessing game*

*. . . the biggest risk in the event that the sort of "melt down" scenario that PerryM and some others forsee occurs is that folks will stop paying MFs and the resorts will go belly up . . . *

That's why I believe that *size matters *in TS. It helps to lessen the competing prospect that *nothing is guaranteed in life*.

One reason that TS has such a bad reputation is that for years, TS was profligate with all sorts of developers of varying expertise and character. We all know those TS rip off stories and you can still read about the woes of smaller outfits who for all sorts of reasons, get into difficulty and it's the owners who are left holding the bag. It matters very much what sort of HOA your resort has and who manages your resort. 

It's not always true, but frequently there is safety in numbers when one teams up with a big name like Marriott or Disney or some of the other bigger TS outfits who bring management and expertise to the table along with character and integrity. They help to lessen the risk which always hangs over any sort of real estate venture. Of course it comes at a higher cost, but you get what you pay for ( or at least for the most part you do ).

To me, the beauty of TS is that one can buy developer or resale at the big names or one can find a small well run resort and do the same and be perfectly satisfied with their purchase decision. There's no one way to walk the path of TS as you find satisfaction in destination travel. But one should indeed be careful about venturing too deeply into the dark woods of TS.

Once again, Marriott, it's name, and its reputation were fundamental in our decision to sail the TS seas. We believe that our decision to purchase will turn out fine in the (uncertain) future. But a steep downturn is indeed always possible. I hope that if a downturn comes, that the Marriott name and Marriott market presence might shield us from some of the winds that could shake up the TS market. We're confident that the resorts where we own will stand the test of time but we can't predict how other might value them.

Barry


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## lisilv (Apr 3, 2007)

*Interesting*

It's been interesting reading everyone's input. Obviously it would make more sense buying a high demand week, to maximize use and have good trading power, but all that comes with a price. Plus, we have to keep in mind that there's NO guarantee that one will pay 30k plus and have a high demand week (Christmas, Spring Break, 4th of July, etc.). I keep on looking at these websites that offer rentals, and I’m still not sure if buying is the best option. 

Yes, I know, I will never be able to rent at a high demand week for the same price as the maintenance fees, I guess that's why we pay HIGH, very high premiums but even so, that doesn't guarantee availability anyway, especially in locations like Hawaii or Aruba. Also, who knows how much the maintenance fees, exchange fees, Interval fees are going to be years from now. I guess one way to maximize use and trading power is buying at a ‘high-demand’ location, but who knows if years from now the prices are still going to be high? Aren’t we putting ourselves at risk?

My favorite place still continues to be MOC, I spent one week there and I LOVED the location, the beach, etc. Went to Grand Ocean last year but I wasn’t too impressed with the beach. I still dream about buying a Beach front resort, but I guess I’ll continue waiting until I am 100% sure. 

Off the record, it’s funny to hear the sales person at the TS presentation say: Timeshare is a way to force you to take vacation, I found that to be an interesting sales pitch, but I’ve been to several presentations and they all say the same thing. Also, I was a bit disappointed at the Marriott sales person in Orlando. He was very good, but at the same time a little arrogant. He said that the only reason I was getting 100k points was because I was buying it from him, otherwise I would only get 60k points which I confirmed to be a lie afterwards. Shame on him.


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## FlyingBoat (Apr 8, 2007)

*Spring break rental, less than MF*

I just rented a 2BR Lockout at Star-Island for $950 for spring break week. Other friends went on a TS presentation for about the same price. I see the MF would be about $5*233K points to own these. So that would be about $1165 per year. So I was able to rent this for less than the MF. Other weeks before and after this were renting on ebay for much less. 

It was a beautiful resort, and we lliked it a lot because it has a lot of tennis courts and may be fun for a group of us to go to every year. But it is hard to justify buying them when they can be rented for less. I suppose the issue is, if we want to return next year, there is no gaurantee we can rent them for a low price again. It is also difficult to get a bunch of condos. (We rented 7 2BR Lockouts in total). None of the people bought the TS deal, so they are not too happy with us and won't be offering the TS discount again!

I see some of the fixed week 2BR Star-Island condos having MF of about $800. Those fees are more reasonable and a bit less than the rentals, so buying a bunch of these could make sense, but we would need them for spring break each year.


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## iluvwdw (Apr 21, 2007)

*Question about Buying a Marriott RESALE*

sorry!  wrong thread!


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## nstotland (May 13, 2013)

*An investment in quality vacation*

We moved to Ottawa Ontario in 1991 and the value of our home has more than doubled in 21 years. Don't look for those types of returns in the time share market. Most values have tanked; there may be a few far and between that have broken even, or have show a small profit.

What you are purchasing, especially from companies like Marriott is a vacation experience that's difficult to duplicate at a hotel. Through wonderful experiences at your home resort, and trading through Marriott and Interval you travel to new destinations and make friends too.

We own on Singer Island Florida, but through various trades of the lock-off we have been to Hilton Head, Las Vegas, Orlando, Marco Island, California twice and New Jersey.  All at Marriott Vacation Clubs. It's a special culture that's kind of strange to comprehend to a non owner.


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