# At what point would you stop payment?



## Fredflintstone (Nov 2, 2018)

Every year the maintenance fees climb. Sometimes a bit and sometimes a lot.

At what point would you refuse to pay the maintenance fee bill if ever?

If one year you get a special assessment for 5 k?

Your fees went from 2500 for the week to 3k or more?

Or would you pay whatever the invoice says and try to rid yourself of it? If you can’t get rid of it, you would pay whatever they say.

Do you have a line in the sand when it comes to what resorts can charge you?  Or, a contract was signed and you are bound to pay any assessment amount declared as per the contract?

Lastly, do you think that resorts know the threshold or the maximum maintenance fee they can receive without outright owner revolt so you will never be faced with this.





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## DrQ (Nov 2, 2018)

Been there, done that. We have 2 week at Inverness by the Sea in Galveston. After Ike, we were hit with a SA of $1,250/wk. The only mitigating factor was that if we payed early, we received 2 bonus weeks per unit if we paid by a certain date.

It is not high class, but a great location.

The anual MF are ~$700/week.


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## am1 (Nov 2, 2018)

Depends on rental rates.  Management may raise fees in the hopes that owners abandon their weeks.


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## DrQ (Nov 2, 2018)

The repairs were needed. It was a structural issue. That is why I would never own (other than a timeshare) on the coast.

The salt air really tears everything up.


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## PigsDad (Nov 2, 2018)

In the years since I have owned timeshares, I believe my MFs have been rising at a lower rate than hotel prices, so I really don't have any complaints.  Those that complain that MFs only go up obviously don't have a clue as to what they are paying for.  You have to look at the price of equivalent accommodations to make any kind of judgement as to whether or not you can still get value out of having your timeshare.  Questions like these presented here are, frankly, total nonsense without some context around them.  JMO

Kurt


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 2, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> In the years since I have owned timeshares, I believe my MFs have been rising at a lower rate than hotel prices, so I really don't have any complaints.  Those that complain that MFs only go up obviously don't have a clue as to what they are paying for.  You have to look at the price of equivalent accommodations to make any kind of judgement as to whether or not you can still get value out of having your timeshare.  Questions like these presented here are, frankly, total nonsense without some context around them.  JMO
> 
> Kurt



Actually, I think questions like this are important on many fronts.

1. If you are truly an Owner in which you bought 1\52 of the pie, your maintenance fees should be substantially lower than a hotel room. Albeit many people bought resale but someone at some point paid 20, 30, 40, 50 k plus for a week. Most of the time 52 times the cost means the condo sold for 4 times real estate market. This upfront cost entitled you to lifetime rates that are lower. In theory, you are paying upkeep but in reality I think you are paying a reduced rate.
2. I personally know of one resort who checks places like TUG and redweek and others to get a pulse on what the market will bear for maintenance fees. So, bringing this up keeps them thinking twice about how much to raise fees. If they see a thread grumbling, they are mindful. From my resort contact, HOAs take notice too.

I think there is a line in the sand and looking at what that line is does get noticed by the right party making decisions and that comes from a CEO of a development resort company.

After all, every owner in my view should question what they are charged every year. I don’t believe any owner has given a blank check where the HOA fills in the number contrary to what the contract says.


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## Panina (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> Actually, I think questions like this are important on many fronts.
> 
> 1. If you are truly an Owner in which you bought 1\52 of the pie, your maintenance fees should be substantially lower than a hotel room. Albeit many people bought resale but someone at some point paid 20, 30, 40, 50 k plus for a week. Most of the time 52 times the cost means the condo sold for 4 times real estate market. This upfront cost entitled you to lifetime rates that are lower. In theory, you are paying upkeep but in reality I think you are paying a reduced rate.
> 2. I personally know of one resort who checks places like TUG and redweek and others to get a pulse on what the market will bear for maintenance fees. So, bringing this up keeps them thinking twice about how much to raise fees. If they see a thread grumbling, they are mindful. From my resort contact, HOAs take notice too.
> ...


Comparing the cost to maintain a hotel to a timeshare condo is like comparing apples to orange, they are different. Sure you can stay in a low end hotel room on the cheap and if you think that has value then timesharing is not for you.  I agree with everything @PigsDad  said.  Also, Higher mf timeshares usually have higher end amenities and it costs money to maintain the high standard. 

I buy timeshares and enjoy them for what value they give me in size and amenities.  I own a simple lovely timeshare that is  on the beach with a mf under $500.  I also own a timeshare New Years week on the beach, much higher end with a mf of $1400 which is my highest mf.  With your mindset you would say the $1400 mf should be the same as the $500 one. Wrong.  There are so many factors that make up mfs.  My $1400 includes a high percentage for reserve for updates and replacements.

Timesharing is not about nickel and diming.  It’s about enjoying accommodations larger then a small hotel room, and amenities and extras most timeshares bring to the vacation experience.  If you have to keep thinking of all the negatives associated with timesharing and how you are being charged too much, you should not buy again, not even hgvc as each year the mfs will go up.


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## b2bailey (Nov 3, 2018)

Many years ago I owned a one bedroom unit at a small property in Palm Springs, Azure Sky. I would say mismanagement led to increasing annual fees. It reached the point where the amount billed was more than fees for 2 bedroom Marriott Newport Coast. Thats when we said: "We quit." Must have been echoed by many because the property closed a few years later. Read in the paper that it sold. Seems to be operating now as  low rent apts.


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## Carol C (Nov 3, 2018)

I was shocked to see maint fees at Manhattan Club are over $3K. For a one br, two ba unit. I stayed there a few times and it is nice...but not THAT nice. And yes I know NYC is expensive blah blah blah. Ah the good old days, when savvy TUGgers could exchange in using a grass shack!


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## WinniWoman (Nov 3, 2018)

Carol C said:


> I was shocked to see maint fees at Manhattan Club are over $3K. For a one br, two ba unit. I stayed there a few times and it is nice...but not THAT nice. And yes I know NYC is expensive blah blah blah. Ah the good old days, when savvy TUGgers could exchange in using a grass shack!




I wouldn't pay even just $100 for a week to stay in Manhattan.


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## WinniWoman (Nov 3, 2018)

For me it would be three things. 

#1 would be that we simply could no longer afford to pay it no matter what the amount was- low or high.

#2 Would be that the resort was going down hill, or made it difficult to enjoy our time there, ex: management issues.

#3 We just were no longer physically able to use it and could not get rid of it in the marketplace or through the resort itself.


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## BigRedOne (Nov 3, 2018)

My resort has just been bought out and the new company is trying to get everyone to trade their week for their new resort or face paying (threatening) a $7000 to $8000 special assessment to make repairs.  If they follow through on their threat, I will not pay it and give them my week back as I suspect so will everyone else.  Most of the owners are in their 60’s, 70’s and 80’s and I don’t think anyone that is retired or about to retire (me) is going to be willing to pay this.  Haven’t got my maintenance fee bill yet so we’ll see. 

Anyone know of other options if everyone would stick together?


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## bbodb1 (Nov 3, 2018)

mpumilia said:


> I wouldn't pay even just $100 for a week to stay in Manhattan.


Not even if Manhattan paid me would I want to go there.....    To each their own!


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## bbodb1 (Nov 3, 2018)

Fred,

Your point in the OP is a good one, but along that line of thinking you just made me realize that considering the places we actually own how long it has been since we have actually seen or stayed at them.....I point that out because in our case, we would lack the interaction required to make such a judgement call.  Hopefully, we never have to deal with such a decision but we really should be prepared.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

bbodb1 said:


> Fred,
> 
> Your point in the OP is a good one, but along that line of thinking you just made me realize that considering the places we actually own how long it has been since we have actually seen or stayed at them.....I point that out because in our case, we would lack the interaction required to make such a judgement call.  Hopefully, we never have to deal with such a decision but we really should be prepared.



Yes, I hope no one is faced with this reality. Panina, you are right in that I am thinking hard on whether to buy or not. I am assuming my best bet is HGVC but the uncontrolled factors like MFs make me think twice. I suppose when I buy anything I think about future advantages and ramifications and that’s probably why I haven’t bought again.

To me, timeshares are kind of like a house of cards. If the MFs get out of hand, the default rate can spiral causing the owners left to make hard decisions. Saying that, resorts are always under pressure to upgrade often ensuring a good use rate and paying owners. However, if the cost to upgrade goes through the roof, owners are pinned between the contract and their pocketbooks.

So far, from what research I have done, one is best to own in consumer friendly states like California, Florida or South Carolina where foreclosure laws are non judicial, anti deficiency. This way, if costs go beyond a persons pocketbook, they at least have leverage to rid themselves of the problem easier without major ramifications. On the resort side where laws are shifted to consumers, they are more mindful of what they can and cannot do.









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## AllanThompson (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> Every year the maintenance fees climb. Sometimes a bit and sometimes a lot.
> 
> At what point would you refuse to pay the maintenance fee bill if ever?
> 
> ...


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

From what I know, BC and Alberta have draconian  laws when it comes to timeshares. 

For comparison, review the recent court cases of Sunchaser Resorts (Northwynd) versus their owners. Owners took the company to court regarding an outrageous special assessment. The owners lost on all fronts and are being charged between 65 to 125 k from the resort. This has caused many financial hardship.

However, saying that, it doesn’t hurt to see if the resort will take your right to use back. Yes, there have been cases where a few years before the RTU ends, owners are slapped with a huge special assessment so I can see why you would be concerned. 


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## Karen G (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> Most of the time 52 times the cost means the condo sold for 4 times real estate market. This upfront cost *entitled you to lifetime rates that are lower*. In theory, you are paying upkeep but in reality I think you are paying a reduced rate.


I don't believe paying the sometimes exorbitant costs for one week of timeshare when buying from the developer *entitles* the buyer to anything. A lot of the initial cost goes to the marketing costs of paying the sales people, paying for "gifts" to entice people to sit through a sales presentation, and all the other costs associated with selling the timeshares.  Most of the time owners have no real say in how the maintenance fees are spent or how fast they go up because the developer controls things.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

Karen G said:


> I don't believe paying the sometimes exorbitant costs for one week of timeshare when buying from the developer *entitles* the buyer to anything. A lot of the initial cost goes to the marketing costs of paying the sales people, paying for "gifts" to entice people to sit through a sales presentation, and all the other costs associated with selling the timeshares.  Most of the time owners have no real say in how the maintenance fees are spent or how fast they go up because the developer controls things.



All good points well taken. I guess it is foolish of me to think that since someone paid 20 k plus they are entitled to reduced rates. Hence, having a timeshare is risky business where the only right you have is to continue to pay whatever they invoice.




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## BocaBoy (Nov 3, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> In the years since I have owned timeshares, *I believe my MFs have been rising at a lower rate than hotel prices, so I really don't have any complaints*.  Those that complain that MFs only go up obviously don't have a clue as to what they are paying for.  You have to look at the price of equivalent accommodations to make any kind of judgement as to whether or not you can still get value out of having your timeshare.  Questions like these presented here are, frankly, total nonsense without some context around them.  JMO


I disagree.  If you compare hotel rates from 2008 (just before the Great Recession) to hotel rates today, it there is no question that hotel rates have risen MUCH more slowly that timeshare maintenance fees, at least for Marriott timeshares.  When hotel rates were actually going down 8-10 years ago, maintenance fee increases did not slow down and even accelerated in many cases.


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## Oldtimer1029 (Nov 3, 2018)

What I find especially galling is that I paid thousands of $ upfront to be an "owner" of an all access points contract, then maintenance fees increase @ substantially more than inflation. I now know, I can go to any one of several hotel sites and pay way less than I originally paid to rent a week at my resorts. The same resorts, the same rooms, etc. for rent to nonowners. Had I known this, I would have remained a nonowner. I can't sell it. Although, @ contract signing I was assured that they would buy it back if I ever wanted.


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## klpca (Nov 3, 2018)

I guess that poor management would bother me enough to get rid of a week even if the fees were on the low side. Resort condition is more important to me than fees. I have sold/given away units that had maintenance issues that I thought were caused by penny-pinching. In my mind the cost to repair/replace items caused by deferred maintenance is greater than the cost of regular maintenance.

Fred, you seem pretty uncomfortable with some of the downsides of timesharing. No offense at all, but with rentals and Airbnb I don't see why you are considering a purchase at all. Maintenance fees will go up, as will exchange fees. Exchanges are always a crapshoot. Even owner reservations can be difficult. Getting rid of a unit can take awhile. Still, after all of that we still spend less than the cost of renting so I'm good with that. But that's me.

True story. We love our timeshares and travel everywhere using them. My good friend owns on Maui and in Las Vegas. She regularly loses use of her weeks - forgets to book, forgets to deposit, doesn't use an OGS and waits until the last minute to try to exchange, then can't find anything. We have opposite experiences.  She should have never bought. It has been nothing but frustration for her. I've given her all kinds of tips, but planning ahead is not her forte. She can't figure out why we like it.


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## WinniWoman (Nov 3, 2018)

But also- timeshare condos require a lot more maintenance than just hotel rooms. 

I prefer to stay at a timeshare or condo type resort any day rather than a Home Away rental or just a hotel.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

BocaBoy said:


> I disagree.  If you compare hotel rates from 2008 (just before the Great Recession) to hotel rates today, it there is no question that hotel rates have risen MUCH more slowly that timeshare maintenance fees, at least for Marriott timeshares.  When hotel rates were actually going down 8-10 years ago, maintenance fee increases did not slow down and even accelerated in many cases.[/
> 
> According to ARDA, MFs increase an average of 6 percent per year. I am not sure on hotel rates BUT I have found some awesome beach front condos in Hawaii on Airbnb for 100 to 150 a night. To be fair, they didn’t have the resort pools and amenities. But it is only 100 to 150 versus 300 a night plus.
> 
> ...


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

klpca said:


> I guess that poor management would bother me enough to get rid of a week even if the fees were on the low side. Resort condition is more important to me than fees. I have sold/given away units that had maintenance issues that I thought were caused by penny-pinching. In my mind the cost to repair/replace items caused by deferred maintenance is greater than the cost of regular maintenance.
> 
> Fred, you seem pretty uncomfortable with some of the downsides of timesharing. No offense at all, but with rentals and Airbnb I don't see why you are considering a purchase at all. Maintenance fees will go up, as will exchange fees. Exchanges are always a crapshoot. Even owner reservations can be difficult. Getting rid of a unit can take awhile. Still, after all of that we still spend less than the cost of renting so I'm good with that. But that's me.
> 
> True story. We love our timeshares and travel everywhere using them. My good friend owns on Maui and in Las Vegas. She regularly loses use of her weeks - forgets to book, forgets to deposit, doesn't use an OGS and waits until the last minute to try to exchange, then can't find anything. We have opposite experiences.  She should have never bought. It has been nothing but frustration for her. I've given her all kinds of tips, but planning ahead is not her forte. She can't figure out why we like it.



Yes, I am concerned and yes I do sway towards non ownership. That said, I love renting from TUGGERS and find them a wonderful, engaging group.  So, without timeshares, I probably wouldn’t have great conversations with nice people like you 


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## terrygee (Nov 3, 2018)

I guess for each person it would depend on where the 'rising MF line' intersects the 'declining usage/value' line.
Mine was a couple of years ago as the MF approached 1k,  exchange costs added a couple of hundred more, and my travel needs due to retirement near the beach declined by 80%.
I just stopped paying. Got a few collector calls, never answered them, then blocked those #'s completely. After a couple of letters everything stopped. No impact whatsoever on FICO score, not that I would care.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

terrygee said:


> I guess for each person it would depend on where the 'rising MF line' intersects the 'declining usage/value' line.
> Mine was a couple of years ago as the MF approached 1k,  exchange costs added a couple of hundred more, and my travel needs due to retirement near the beach declined by 80%.
> I just stopped paying. Got a few collector calls, never answered them, then blocked those #'s completely. After a couple of letters everything stopped. No impact whatsoever on FICO score, not that I would care.



Sadly, even though there are wonderful sites like TUG, the venture remains limited on resale especially for legacy resorts.

It’s too bad people have to feel that their only way out after trying various options is to stop paying or reverting to shady options. 

You are so right on usage versus costs argument. I personally can’t predict travelling every year. Last year, I did 5 weeks. This year, I had to cancel all my plans due to my dads cancer. Next year....who knows. That also factors in...after all life happens.



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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

You know what would be helpful?  TUG has a rating system for resorts. Why not have a rating system for Management and HOAs? They could be rated on reasonability of maintenance fees, value of fees to condition of resort, customer service, etc.  This would be helpful because many people mention their experiences are directly tied to management/HOA.


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## DeniseM (Nov 3, 2018)

I would never stop making payments, because I know how to give away a timeshare to someone who wants it, and have done it many times.


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## bluehende (Nov 3, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> I would never stop making payments, because I know how to give away a timeshare to someone who wants it, and have done it many times.



I would bet that your options are much better than most due to smart purchases.  Unfortunately there are too many time shares out there that cannot be given away.  Look through ebay and you see many time shares with no bids that include a year or more MF.


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## DeniseM (Nov 3, 2018)

True, but I once gave a timeshare away at an old resort in Branson, so it is possible.  It just takes time and good advertising.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

bluehende said:


> I would bet that your options are much better than most due to smart purchases.  Unfortunately there are too many time shares out there that cannot be given away.  Look through ebay and you see many time shares with no bids that include a year or more MF.



I totally agree that brand of timeshare means everything for resale. Even though you pay more upfront, getting rid of it is easier. The problem is the initial costs to buy resale CAN be high(but not always) especially at prime locations and the MFs can be fairly high too. 

I had 4 legacy timeshares and they were hard to unload. It took over 2 years. I finally paid people to take them and paid transfer fees too plus one extra year of maintenance. It cost me 6 k but I thought it was better than saddling the other owners if the defaulted.


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## Panina (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> Yes, I am concerned and yes I do sway towards non ownership. That said, I love renting from TUGGERS and find them a wonderful, engaging group.  So, without timeshares, I probably wouldn’t have great conversations with nice people like you
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Keep your mindset in the positive whichever way you go.  It is all about lifestyle, some are willing to pay more to guarantee they have what they want, other will not.  It is a personal choice  and to each person the answer is what is best for them.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 3, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> True, but I once gave a timeshare away at an old resort in Branson, so it is possible.  It just takes time and good advertising.


I remember when you gave that week away.  The owners at that resort, Roark, I believe, absolutely love the place.  Find an owner, and you have a buyer on that one.  We stayed there years ago, before I was as knowledgeable as I am today, and we liked it okay.  We had a 2 bedroom, and it was very clean, and the beds were comfortable.  The place needed updates, but so does our Val Chatelle, so I looked beyond that fact.  The activities were SO fun, including bingo, which Rick and I starred because we were younger and faster than most of the rest of them.  We won discounts on several worthy activities.  We were so pleased.  

We talked to a lot of owners at the activities, and they were so tickled pink with their ownerships.  We didn't talk to a single person who was unhappy.  The people were so very nice.  I loved the ability to use a pontoon boat on the lake for a few hours.  The pool was very nice.  I actually swam in it, which I rarely do.


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## Panina (Nov 3, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> I would never stop making payments, because I know how to give away a timeshare to someone who wants it, and have done it many times.





bluehende said:


> I would bet that your options are much better than most due to smart purchases.  Unfortunately there are too many time shares out there that cannot be given away.  Look through ebay and you see many time shares with no bids that include a year or more MF.



With time, sometimes more then you want, and patience most can be given away.  I watch eBay closely and even the ones without bids, relist  and eventually get a taker.  

I got one on eBay at a resort I already owned at that relisted 3 times on eBay, they paid me to take it.  I missed it initially because I was on vacation.  I was looking for years, for the week I wanted but resale prices were  too high.  The realtor selling at my resort actually gets descent money for weeks.  I also gifted a week at this resort, a week earlier then I needed, that got taken in one day.  I used the money I got free from the other timeshare to pay the closing cost.  

I personally would only stop paying if I financially didn’t have the money.  I know my obligation going in.  If I ever have a week that would be hard to give away I would pay the closing cost, a year of maintenance and offer a gift card.  Still cheaper then having to keep paying on something I couldn’t use and still doing the right thing.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

I think in my case, I am swayed more to buying a condo hotel in Hawaii. Yes, I will need to fork out 200 k plus but they do rent it out for a fee when I don’t want to use it. My long term plan if health holds out is to spend 3 months a year in Hawaii in the winter months. I have a lot of friends there I have garnered by visiting probably 40 times now. 

I was thinking the timeshare route but it would be costly over 3 months. Exchanging I find is hard in Hawaii due to demand. I think it would be nice to have a place there that appreciates in value over time, has the ability to be rented out by a property management firm just to cover costs.

Frankly, I have been to many places and in my opinion no place beats the awesome weather in Hawaii.

That said, there are incredible timeshares in Hawaii that ensure someone is going to have a great time. 

Now, just have to narrow down which island to look. I love them all. Been thinking Kona because the real estate prices aren’t that bad but the beaches there aren’t good due to lava rocks everywhere.

Hmmmm. Big decisions require big time to process where.


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## DrQ (Nov 3, 2018)

Buying in Hawaii is not my desire. It's beautiful, but to me a timeshare needs to be used to be value. For us, Hawaii would be a once in a lifetime trip, not a yearly or EOY trip. Even if you bought it to rent it out or trade it out, to me, that seems like *WORK*. If we want to go to Hawaii, I think we will do it as a one time cost.

As I've said previously, we a simple people.


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## DeniseM (Nov 3, 2018)

The islands with the best rental demand are Maui and Oahu - the others don't come close.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> The islands with the best rental demand are Maui and Oahu - the others don't come close.



True. I think Kauai gets a good share of visitors but certainly not as high as Maui. And Kauai is quite pricey.




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## Panina (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> I think in my case, I am swayed more to buying a condo hotel in Hawaii. Yes, I will need to fork out 200 k plus but they do rent it out for a fee when I don’t want to use it. My long term plan if health holds out is to spend 3 months a year in Hawaii in the winter months. I have a lot of friends there I have garnered by visiting probably 40 times now.
> 
> I was thinking the timeshare route but it would be costly over 3 months. Exchanging I find is hard in Hawaii due to demand. I think it would be nice to have a place there that appreciates in value over time, has the ability to be rented out by a property management firm just to cover costs.
> 
> ...


Make sure you research the company that will be managing your property and understand your costs fully.  You will be far away most of the time and need to be in a place with A+ ethics.   

I once rented a vacation house I owned and let the realtor know when I would be up.  Last minute we went being I wasn’t told I had a renter and one was there.  Made me wonder how many times she rented and I didn’t know.  I learned good from that. These days a door camera would let me know.

I have thought of getting a condo in Florida but decided not yet, will continue doing the timeshare shuffle but it  definitely can happen in the future.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

Panina said:


> Make sure you research the company that will be managing your property and understand your costs fully.  You will be far away most of the time and need to be in a place with A+ ethics.
> 
> I once rented a vacation house I owned and let the realtor know when I would be up.  Last minute we went being I wasn’t told I had a renter and one was there.  Made me wonder how many times she rented and I didn’t know.  I learned good from that. These days a door camera would let me know.
> 
> I have thought of getting a condo in Florida but decided not yet, will continue doing the timeshare shuffle but it  definitely can happen in the future.



Great advice. Say, how is Marcos Island?  Sadly, I was going to Miami and area this week but had to cancel and lose my money because my dads cancer got worse.

Prices in Florida are certainly better than Hawaii. Perhaps, I should visit there as part of my research.

I almost bought a place in Puerto Vallarta 2 years back but backed out when the seller wanted to change terms. Maybe wrong, I just feel safer investing in the US over Mexico. I think real estate protections are better in the US.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

I should add the reason why I discounted Florida in the past was hurricane risks. That’s why I looked at California, Hawaii and other Pacific Ocean areas. Maybe over reacting there. This included any timeshare purchase as well


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## Panina (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> Great advice. Say, how is Marcos Island?  Sadly, I was going to Miami and area this week but had to cancel and lose my money because my dads cancer got worse.
> 
> Prices in Florida are certainly better than Hawaii. Perhaps, I should visit there as part of my research.
> 
> ...


Sorry about your dad.  I know it takes a toll on you.  I lost my dad last year.  Not easy.

Love Marco Island.  Last time I looked it was the sweet spot for owning in sw Florida.  I have a coop near mom as a second home, as I go often, so I don’t want to maintain a 3rd place thus the timeshares. 

Worth a look, looking is free. I agree with feeling safer investing in the USA.


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## DrQ (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> I should add the reason why I discounted Florida in the past was hurricane risks. That’s why I looked at California, Hawaii and other Pacific Ocean areas. Maybe over reacting there. This included any timeshare purchase as well
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


California has wild files, Hawaii has hurricanes and tropical storms too. You can mitigate the risk with travel insurance if you want. We own on the Gulf Coast, Galveston, and we were only shut out one year due to Ike.


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## PigsDad (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> *According to ARDA, MFs increase an average of 6 percent per year.* I am not sure on hotel rates BUT I have found some awesome beach front condos in Hawaii on Airbnb for 100 to 150 a night. To be fair, they didn’t have the resort pools and amenities. But it is only 100 to 150 versus 300 a night plus.



I would question that ARDA statistic.  I've owned for 13 years and have never had a single year where the MFs went up more that 5%.  Most years it is in the 3-4% range.  The lowest was less than 1%.

Kurt


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## PigsDad (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> I should add the reason why I discounted Florida in the past was hurricane risks. That’s why I looked at California, Hawaii and other Pacific Ocean areas. Maybe over reacting there. This included any timeshare purchase as well.


IMO, the bigger risk is what management company your timeshare is with, not where it is located.  A good management company will have enough reserves and insurance to cover weather-related risks.

As an example, we own two HGVC weeks on Marco Island -- you know, the island that hurricane Irma directly hit last September.  Both of my resorts were closed for several weeks, but because of HGVC's excellent management, there were no special assessments.  The owners who could not use their weeks while they were closed for repairs were credited that year's maintenance fees so they were out nothing.  Plus, the repairs were completed in record time and the resorts were open again sooner than many of the other resorts on the island.  And to top it off, this year's MFs increased only 2.5% (less than inflation).

Kurt


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## Ironwood (Nov 3, 2018)

After 31 years of TSing and three interval ownerships at various times, we are now out    Ever increasing mf's and outrageous exchange fees esp for Canadians after currency exchange said we had to get out.  As empty nesters, with all the travel options we have now, including Air BnB we can generally find better value.  Having said that, we have had many memorable trips over the years, although our last exchange a month ago was one we would not return to. And with that I'm signing off from the forum.  Keep well everyone and keep traveling!


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## PigsDad (Nov 3, 2018)

BocaBoy said:


> I disagree.  If you compare hotel rates from 2008 (just before the Great Recession) to hotel rates today, it there is no question that hotel rates have risen MUCH more slowly that timeshare maintenance fees, at least for Marriott timeshares.  When hotel rates were actually going down 8-10 years ago, maintenance fee increases did not slow down and even accelerated in many cases.


I am not familiar w/ Marriott's price history, but for Hilton (where I own), hotel rates have definitely gone up much faster than my maintenance fees.  I guess it depends on the system you are looking at.

Kurt


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> I am not familiar w/ Marriott's price history, but for Hilton (where I own), hotel rates have definitely gone up much faster than my maintenance fees.  I guess it depends on the system you are looking at.
> 
> Kurt



Yes, MF rates do vary. I think it boils down to the Management company. Some are great at keeping costs competitive and some are terrible.  That’s why I think a close look at the Management company is more important than the actual resort. Many locales have plenty of choices so if one Management company is better than another, you are best going with them.


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## PigsDad (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> I think in my case, I am swayed more to buying a condo hotel in Hawaii. Yes, I will need to fork out *200 k plus* but they do rent it out for a fee when I don’t want to use it.


I'm glad that you have a plan that might work out better for you.  But let's be honest here -- a $200K condo in Hawaii would be a pretty low end and definitely not near the beach.  Comparing that to your typical Hawaii timeshare is an apples to oranges comparison.  With the prices of real estate in Hawaii, can you even get a $200K condo?  I would guess that a condo that is equivalent to an ocean-front timeshare would be in the $1 million range.

Kurt


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## PigsDad (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> Yes, MF rates do vary. I think it boils down to the Management company. Some are great at keeping costs competitive and some are terrible.  That’s why I think a close look at the Management company is more important than the actual resort. Many locales have plenty of choices so if one Management company is better than another, you are best going with them.


I agree.  I like your idea of having some kind of way to review / rate management companies, as that would be very useful information for buyers.  The difficult part is that it seem management companies are constantly changing, buyouts occur, etc. and would be hard to keep up-to-date information.

Kurt


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> I agree.  I like your idea of having some kind of way to review / rate management companies, as that would be very useful information for buyers.  The difficult part is that it seem management companies are constantly changing, buyouts occur, etc. and would be hard to keep up-to-date information.
> 
> Kurt



Yes, management companies do change but an up to date database on them could keep up with it somewhat. It’s better than having no information at all.

As for Hawaii, you are right. Prices do vary a lot depending on location. @slip bought a condo for I think 140 k in Molokai and from the pictures he shared, it was Ocean front. I am not sure if he got Ocean view or not. But the place had a nice pool with a gorgeous ocean view.

Waikiki is a whole other story. Prices get get 500 k plus in old places like the Illikai.

I know Maui varies a lot too. In Hana, my friend bought a 2 bedroom condo with Ocean view for 175 k. Yes, go to Lahaina and expect to pay more. So, they are out there. One just needs to be a bit flexible and scour the deal.


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## DeniseM (Nov 3, 2018)

If you are looking for a strong rental, Molokai and Hana are not what you want to buy.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> If you are looking for a strong rental, Molokai and Hana are not what you want to buy.



That’s true. They are harder to rent as people prefer the Waikiki and Ka’anapali beaches. This really stems on their lack of knowledge of Hawaii.  More seasoned visitors know there are plenty of gem beaches out there that aren’t commercialized. My personal favourites are the beaches north shore Kauai past hanelei bay. Go to Piai area in Maui and there are some beauties there too and prices to stay are lower. 




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## DeniseM (Nov 3, 2018)

My favorite island is Kauai - but if I were buying a condo to rent, that would not influence my decision.  Remember how you became disenchanted with timesharing?  The exact same thing will happen with a condo, if you don't approach it as a business decision.  In fact, owning a condo is much more complicated, and a lot more can go wrong.  Don't forget that you will have HOA fees, too.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> My favorite island is Kauai - but if I were buying a condo to rent, that would not influence my decision.  Remember how you became disenchanted with timesharing?  The exact same thing will happen with a condo, if you don't approach it as a business decision.  In fact, owning a condo is much more complicated, and a lot more can go wrong.  Don't forget that you will have HOA fees, too.



All good points. However, I am stretched to find a condo to purchase that has 2 k per week maintenance fees. Most HOA fees are 300 to 400 a month. Even though I have more work, I also have more control. Also, the resale end is much better than timeshare. There is though something to be said for turnkey.

You are right on the business end. That is my strong suit. I do look before leaping. I know that if I pay about 200 to 250 k I can afford to use it and let it sit when I’m not there. If I go high demand, I am forced to get it rented to help cover costs. Plus, I would pay cash. With the higher demand areas, I would have to mortgage.

A lot to think about. 


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## slip (Nov 3, 2018)

Denise has a very good point. My condo on Molokai will get some rental income but will only come close to covering the maintenance fees. I took all this into account and we’re fine with no rental income but it’s nice to get something. This works great for us since my wife will be retiring in three years and I will be retiring in about six years plus that’s where we will retire to. 

The rental game is tough with lots of competition. You have to price competitively, you can’t price rentals on what you want or need to get. Maintenance fees can be very high and extremely tough to cover in some areas. Oceanfront doesn’t guarantee you anything either because of the competition. 

If We weren’t going to retire on Molokai, We wouldn’t have bought the condo. Timeshares would have made more sense with less hassle. 

We ended out paying $130,000 for an oceanview one bedroom at an oceanfront resort but we found someone ready to sell. It was on the market a long time. Other comparables were going for $40,000 more.  Oceanfronts are $50,000 to 100,000 more. 

I Checked the rental history on the oceanfront units and they had between $2,000 and $6,000 more a year in rental income. That was the price we were willing to pay to be exactly where we want to be in the resort and that was important to us since we will be living there. Not to mention what we saved with the purchase price. 

Everyone’s situation is different, just be prepared to look at everything from all angles. Only you can decide what’s right for you. 

The view from my lanai on Molokai.


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## jacknsara (Nov 3, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> I'm glad that you have a plan that might work out better for you.  But let's be honest here -- a $200K condo in Hawaii would be a pretty low end and definitely not near the beach.  Comparing that to your typical Hawaii timeshare is an apples to oranges comparison.  With the prices of real estate in Hawaii, can you even get a $200K condo?  I would guess that a condo that is equivalent to an ocean-front timeshare would be in the $1 million range.
> 
> Kurt


Aloha,
Here's a condo at Kauai Beach Villas currently listed for $239K   https://www.hawaiilife.com/mls/287024
The resort is on the ocean but the A building is near the mauka end of the resort 
https://www.google.com/maps/place/K...!1s2018-11-18!8m2!3d22.0106388!4d-159.3406231 
I have no idea the interior condition and agree that KBV is not a high end resort; however, I claim it is *not* a low end resort either.
We own timeshare units at the resort but have no ownership interest in the listing.  I am not making a recommendation. I am only pointing out the availability at nearly $200K.
Jack


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

http://friendlyislerealty.com/index.php?action=listingview&listingID=380


Nice spot. Just for comparison, I found a corner unit, ocean front at your complex for 125 k. They are out there.  605 a month maintenance fee.

I do agree if you plan to live there, buying was the way to go. Rental competition is certainly there. I think that’s why I have been (through searching and searching) able to rent ocean front units for 150 a day, 900 a week or 3200 a month. In a sense, banking the 200 k and using  income earned from investments to pay rent works as I am safe to say I can average 5 percent a year.

My banker sure thinks that way but he would lose some commission if I pull it out so he’s bias

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## slip (Nov 3, 2018)

jacknsara said:


> Aloha,
> Here's a condo at Kauai Beach Villas currently listed for $239K   https://www.hawaiilife.com/mls/287024
> The resort is on the ocean but the A building is near the mauka end of the resort
> https://www.google.com/maps/place/K...!1s2018-11-18!8m2!3d22.0106388!4d-159.3406231
> ...



These don’t come open very often on Kauai at that price. It will probably sell fast. Go to a Hawaii realtor website and search for what’s for sale under $300,000. There aren’t many listings that aren’t vacant land. 

The monthly HOA is listed at $1,056 on this listing and that maybe low. While I was looking, I often found incorrect information in the listings. Make sure you verify everything.


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## MLR (Nov 3, 2018)

mpumilia said:


> For me it would be three things.
> 
> #1 would be that we simply could no longer afford to pay it no matter what the amount was- low or high.
> 
> ...



I agree. But would say if our health fails, finances fail or maintenance fees climb to far. Our MF have gone up approx. $250 a year in the last ten years. Not sure if that is good, bad or ugly. But we like Paniolo Greens and acquired another FREE EOYO week to go along with the one we have. It is too far to go for one week. With two, we usually get some good weather. I can see the day coming when our kids won't let us travel ALONE - HA HA. Maybe they will feel sorry for the folks and tag along. IF/WHEN we can no longer travel - for any reason, we will give them away.


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## slip (Nov 3, 2018)

MLR said:


> I agree. But would say if our health fails, finances fail or maintenance fees climb to far. Our MF have gone up approx. $250 a year in the last ten years. Not sure if that is good, bad or ugly. But we like Paniolo Greens and acquired another FREE EOYO week to go along with the one we have. It is too far to go for one week. With two, we usually get some good weather. I can see the day coming when our kids won't let us travel ALONE - HA HA. Maybe they will feel sorry for the folks and tag along. IF/WHEN we can no longer travel - for any reason, we will give them away.



I always thought Paniolo Greens was under rated. You do have to drive more but it’s in a great area over there and close to Hapuna beach.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

MLR said:


> I agree. But would say if our health fails, finances fail or maintenance fees climb to far. Our MF have gone up approx. $250 a year in the last ten years. Not sure if that is good, bad or ugly. But we like Paniolo Greens and acquired another FREE EOYO week to go along with the one we have. It is too far to go for one week. With two, we usually get some good weather. I can see the day coming when our kids won't let us travel ALONE - HA HA. Maybe they will feel sorry for the folks and tag along. IF/WHEN we can no longer travel - for any reason, we will give them away.



That’s a good plan. As I recall, Paniolo greens is on the big island. Great views but not close to a beach. However, I think I golfed behind there and if memory serves me right, the course was wonderful.

Yes, many variables. You are smart going 2 weeks as I have always found one week not enough.

Based on what you said, it sounds like it’s well managed and thus costs aren’t an issue. Again, we go back to Management as a major consideration when buying a timeshare. I suppose this also applies to buying as well as 1 k MF fee is high but at least not 1 k or more a week.  




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## slip (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> http://friendlyislerealty.com/index.php?action=listingview&listingID=380
> 
> 
> Nice spot. Just for comparison, I found a corner unit, ocean front at your complex for 125 k. They are out there.  605 a month maintenance fee.
> ...




This unit looks familiar.  Before I left to look at the resort, this was the unit that was at the top of our list. It was listed at $135,000 at the time. It’s an end unit which meant you could have a washer and dryer in the unit. Third floor was nice and it has a good angle for the ocean view. It’s in the B building which is angled to take advantage of the trade winds so the unit will cool off nicely. 

It ended out being the last one I looked at because someone was renting it. It was the biggest disappointment. It looked much better in the pictures. It was terrible seeing it live. My realtor actually took pictures while I was there so she could show the owner why they were priced too high. They dropped the price $10,000 just after I got back from that trip. 

The kitchen and bath were all original and really needed a gut. While being able to add a washer and dryer was a plus, it wasn’t that important with that unit because there is laundry on each floor and it was right outside this unit. It was on the third floor which is nice for the view and breezes but with no elevators we ruled the third floor out since we will be retiring there and just getting older. 

Obviously, I really love this resort.  They really keep it up nice and you know your in Hawaii as soon as you look off the lanai. It’s  Molokai and I won’t get a ton of rentals but I can live with that.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

slip said:


> This unit looks familiar.  Before I left to look at the resort, this was the unit that was at the top of our list. It was listed at $135,000 at the time. It’s an end unit which meant you could have a washer and dryer in the unit. Third floor was nice and it has a good angle for the ocean view. It’s in the B building which is angled to take advantage of the trade winds so the unit will cool off nicely.
> 
> It ended out being the last one I looked at because someone was renting it. It was the biggest disappointment. It looked much better in the pictures. It was terrible seeing it live. My realtor actually took pictures while I was there so she could show the owner why they were priced too high. They dropped the price $10,000 just after I got back from that trip.
> 
> ...



I can see why. You bought right and I’m sure will enjoy it for many years to come regardless of rental income. At your price point, you don’t need to sweat getting it rents to help cover costs. It’s affordable.  Actually, I do plan on checking these out @slip. Thanks to you and your posts, you gave me an added place to look.




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## slip (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> I can see why. You bought right and I’m sure will enjoy it for many years to come regardless of rental income. At your price point, you don’t need to sweat getting it rents to help cover costs. It’s affordable.  Actually, I do plan on checking these out @slip. Thanks to you and your posts, you gave me an added place to look.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hope you keep us posted on what you’re looking at and how it’s going. I really enjoyed my experience during our search and it was fun sharing it here in TUG.

Just for reference, the listing below will get you between $6,000 and $8,000 a year in rentals. It’s updated and still would still be very easy to put your own stamp on it. It’s been on the market over four months now.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/7142-Kamehameha-V-Hwy-203A_Kaunakakai_HI_96748_M74801-79499?view=

As for the other islands, like DeniseM says Kauai has less demand than Maui or Oahu. Kauai is still very rentable and you may be able to get the numbers to work but all your numbers will be higher. 

If you want to go a little cheaper, I would concentrate on Maui. There is more affordable inventory there. Plus the  inventory is more varied so you will have more different choices. 

I’ll see if I can find a few of the listings we were considering. Some of the ones we were looking at were not vacation rentals since we planned to live there but we looked at vacation rentals too.


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## WalnutBaron (Nov 3, 2018)

BocaBoy said:


> I disagree.  If you compare hotel rates from 2008 (just before the Great Recession) to hotel rates today, it there is no question that hotel rates have risen MUCH more slowly that timeshare maintenance fees, at least for Marriott timeshares.  When hotel rates were actually going down 8-10 years ago, maintenance fee increases did not slow down and even accelerated in many cases.


You must not be talking about hotel rates in cities like San Francisco, Seattle, or Washington, D.C. In San Francisco, for example, average rates in 2013 ranged from $180 per night in January (low season) to $327 in August (high season). In 2018, rates have increased to $325 in January and $480 in August. DW and I used to enjoy brief weekend getaways to San Francisco, especially if we had Giants or Warriors tickets. No longer. Way too expensive.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

slip said:


> I hope you keep us posted on what you’re looking at and how it’s going. I really enjoyed my experience during our search and it was fun sharing it here in TUG.
> 
> Just for reference, the listing below will get you between $6,000 and $8,000 a year in rentals. It’s updated and still would still be very easy to put your own stamp on it. It’s been on the market over four months now.
> 
> ...



Awesome. Yes I will share the journey. I have to deal with dad and his cancer then fly in for a look. My banker won’t like me getting the funds ready . He likes the commission.

If the price point is right, I won’t need to rent it out. I have enough family who would drool on using it. My 3 adult kids for starters. 

But point taken on Maui if I want to go the rental route. Denise did give good advice.


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## slip (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> Awesome. Yes I will share the journey. I have to deal with dad and his cancer then fly in for a look. My banker won’t like me getting the funds ready . He likes the commission.
> 
> If the price point is right, I won’t need to rent it out. I have enough family who would drool on using it. My 3 adult kids for starters.
> 
> ...



For us the time was right and we were lucky to be in position to be able to pull the trigger when the market was right. We were at a now or never time in Our lives. 

Oahu would be the same way but with even higher numbers. Maui maybe a good balance. 

Your right with others wanting to come. I already have three weeks rented from people I work with. They are all extending their vacations from either Kauai or Maui. 

If you don’t want to rent Molokai is at a great price point but you have to like the slow paced, small rural island with limited amenities. You can’t change Molokai, it has to change you.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

slip said:


> For us the time was right and we were lucky to be in position to be able to pull the trigger when the market was right. We were at a now or never time in Our lives.
> 
> Oahu would be the same way but with even higher numbers. Maui maybe a good balance.
> 
> ...



Slow pace . Naw, as I get older, I welcome slow pace.  When I was a kid, I used to enjoy my dads farm. It had a grainery as accommodation, a well, no power, just a propane stove.  Those were the best years and I’m sure Molokai is a step up from that. 




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## slip (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> Slow pace . Naw, as I get older, I welcome slow pace.  When I was a kid, I used to enjoy my dads farm. It had a grainery as accommodation, a well, no power, just a propane stove.  Those were the best years and I’m sure Molokai is a step up from that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I would definitely put Molokai on your list then. I always give a ton of information to everyone that talks about going there because it’s not for everyone. One thing I have found though, is that a lot a people are looking for the Molokai type vacation. 

I always did the same when people I know went to Kauai because it is laid back. Molokai is on a whole new level though.


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## DeniseM (Nov 3, 2018)

We have been to Molokai and enjoyed it, but you should visit there before you buy there.  Molokai has no tourist infrastructure and almost all of the stores are of the "mom and pop" variety.  There are no major grocery stores, or chain stores.  It's like a tiny isolated town in the south, set in Hawaii.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> We have been to Molokai and enjoyed it, but you should visit there before you buy there.  Molokai has no tourist infrastructure and almost all of the stores are of the "mom and pop" variety.  There are no major grocery stores, or chain stores.  It's like a tiny isolated town in the south, set in Hawaii.



Yes, I have been there about 10 years ago tenting it on a beach north shore . In my mind it’s probably the last old Hawaii left. I love the peace and quiet but I do know that would drive many crazy. 


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## WinniWoman (Nov 3, 2018)

slip said:


> I always thought Paniolo Greens was under rated. You do have to drive more but it’s in a great area over there and close to Hapuna beach.



Yes! We stayed there years ago and I really liked it and the location as well. Wish we lived closer to Hawaii!


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## WinniWoman (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> Yes, I have been there about 10 years ago tenting it on a beach north shore . In my mind it’s probably the last old Hawaii left. I love the peace and quiet but I do know that would drive many crazy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Quiet is your friend. Take it from me- a person who lives like a hermit in the woods. Wonderful.


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## slip (Nov 3, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> We have been to Molokai and enjoyed it, but you should visit there before you buy there.  Molokai has no tourist infrastructure and almost all of the stores are of the "mom and pop" variety.  There are no major grocery stores, or chain stores.  It's like a tiny isolated town in the south, set in Hawaii.



This is a really good description and I wouldn’t buy a house or a condo without going there. I did buy my first timeshare for $1 without going there but that’s totally different. That worked out great though. That was my first Pono Kai week. 

When I went to Molokai, I tried to look at everything. I spent a ton of time in the grocery stores too. The whole island had everything we needed. It’s just different, different in a quirky way too so that made it enjoyable.


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## DeniseM (Nov 3, 2018)

Hi Jeff - Just to clarify: I'm certainly not criticizing you - I know you did your homework.  However, Molokai is not for everyone.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

slip said:


> This is a really good description and I wouldn’t buy a house or a condo without going there. I did buy my first timeshare for $1 without going there but that’s totally different. That worked out great though. That was my first Pono Kai week.
> 
> When I went to Molokai, I tried to look at everything. I spent a ton of time in the grocery stores too. The whole island had everything we needed. It’s just different, different in a quirky way too so that made it enjoyable.



Yes, I agree. I never buy something sight unseen. Did you know that Molokai has the highest percent of Hawaiians.  I had a Hawaiian friend boat me to North Shore and pick me up in 2 weeks when I did my tenting stint. Hawaiians are slow to let you in but once they have they will do anything for you. Ohana at its best. Also, they are the best neighbors to have once they know you are there for the long haul.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> Hi Jeff - Just to clarify: I'm certainly not criticizing you - I know you did your homework.  However, Molokai is not for everyone.



Yes, most people wouldn’t like the quiet. You are quite right. It takes a certain person to want a rural life.


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## slip (Nov 3, 2018)

DeniseM said:


> Hi Jeff - Just to clarify: I'm certainly not criticizing you - I know you did your homework.  However, Molokai is not for everyone.



No offense taken, as you can see I go out of my way to try to explain Molokai also. It’s hard to explain and going there is always your best bet. Especially when buying a whole ownership condo.

Molokai certainly isn’t for everyone and that is reflected in their annual visitor numbers. It’s only between 30,000 and 40,000 a year. But like we have said, it’s not set up with infrastructure for any more.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 3, 2018)

slip said:


> No criticism taken, as you can see I go out of my way to try to explain Molokai also. It’s hard to explain and going there is always your best bet. Especially when buying a whole ownership condo.
> 
> Molokai certainly isn’t for everyone and that is reflected in their annual visitor numbers. It’s only between 30,000 and 40,000 a year. But like we have said, it’s not set up with infrastructure for any more.



And I hope it stays that way. Surely there can be one island left that’s rural old Hawaii less Niihau of course.


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## slip (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> Yes, I agree. I never buy something sight unseen. Did you know that Molokai has the highest percent of Hawaiians.  I had a Hawaiian friend boat me to North Shore and pick me up in 2 weeks when I did my tenting stint. Hawaiians are slow to let you in but once they have they will do anything for you. Ohana at its best. Also, they are the best neighbors to have once they know you are there for the long haul.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Definitely agree about that and just like everyone else, Some let you in quicker than others. It’s definitely a place where you don’t go there trying to change anything. You have to adapt to Molokai.

You may want to look at the west end also, where Ke Nani Kai is. The units are nice there and there are a few resorts to choose from. I felt the area looked a little depressed with the old ranch all boarded up. The west side is a lot dryer so it’s not as lush as the east side.


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## slip (Nov 3, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> And I hope it stays that way. Surely there can be one island left that’s rural old Hawaii less Niihau of course.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I agree, that’s one thing my wife says, just our luck as soon as we get there they will start allowing more development. I don’t think it will happen and we hope not.


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## plpgma (Nov 4, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> Every year the maintenance fees climb. Sometimes a bit and sometimes a lot.
> 
> At what point would you refuse to pay the maintenance fee bill if ever?
> 
> ...


My wife and I own at a fairly expensive area (Ft Lauderdale) and therefore pay higher-than-average mf's. With that being said we have always been happy with the trade-off between hotel stay vs condo stay (re: we feel that we've always gotten our return for the money spent in mf's). Since we rationalize our monthly mf's as simply pre-paying for our vacations I guess we would have to determine the breakeven point where such vacations would be too expensive and then use that to consider whether continuing with mf's would no longer be attractive. But even though our mf's do increase each year by acceptable percentages we don't see such a break-even decision happening anytime real soon.


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## bluehende (Nov 4, 2018)

The only way I would stop paying is if I have very good reason to think something shady is going on.  My burden of proof would have to be pretty high too.


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## whitemw (Nov 4, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> Every year the maintenance fees climb. Sometimes a bit and sometimes a lot.
> 
> At what point would you refuse to pay the maintenance fee bill if ever?
> 
> ...


I owned at Pueblo Bonito Sunset Beach Cabo San Lucas until my last visit last month.  I stopped by the Member Services Office and asked about turning my week back in.  It was so easy I couldn't believe it!  So I could give $1,000.00 to walkaway or if I transferred it to another person the cost is $500.00.  For me the decision was easy, my yearly maintenance for 2019 was going to be $982.00 so I charged $1,000.00 enjoyed the rest of my final week there and flew home.  I purchased my week in 1993 so I had gotten my money's worth as far as I was concerned, had a lot of good times but was tired of the commitment.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 4, 2018)

whitemw said:


> I owned at Pueblo Bonito Sunset Beach Cabo San Lucas until my last visit last month.  I stopped by the Member Services Office and asked about turning my week back in.  It was so easy I couldn't believe it!  So I could give $1,000.00 to walkaway or if I transferred it to another person the cost is $500.00.  For me the decision was easy, my yearly maintenance for 2019 was going to be $982.00 so I charged $1,000.00 enjoyed the rest of my final week there and flew home.  I purchased my week in 1993 so I had gotten my money's worth as far as I was concerned, had a lot of good times but was tired of the commitment.



I think they are making it much more accommodating now. In your case they scooped up 1 k and you are happy to be done. On their side, better to get 1 k then nothing but foreclosure costs.

I believe the tide is changing for the owners. Let’s face it...lives change. Nothing lasts forever. There does come a time to move forward and the resort making the transition easier makes them look good.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## BLKBRD370 (Nov 4, 2018)

Throughout 2018 my Timeshare Unit ignored my request for a reservation date and now I am billed for MFs again for next year. I gave up on following up after 3 emails to reserve in early 2018. Disgusted.
BB370


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 4, 2018)

BLKBRD370 said:


> Throughout 2018 my Timeshare Unit ignored my request for a reservation date and now I am billed for MFs again for next year. I gave up on following up after 3 emails to reserve in early 2018. Disgusted.
> BB370



Well 2 people can play the same game. Why don’t you just ignore the bill?  Send it back and tell them since you are being ignored on reservations, you will return the favour and ignore the bill. That should get results.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## slip (Nov 5, 2018)

BTW, the listing above for Kauai Beach Villas is listed as sold already.


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## Carol C (Nov 5, 2018)

BigRedOne said:


> My resort has just been bought out and the new company is trying to get everyone to trade their week for their new resort or face paying (threatening) a $7000 to $8000 special assessment to make repairs.  If they follow through on their threat, I will not pay it and give them my week back as I suspect so will everyone else.  Most of the owners are in their 60’s, 70’s and 80’s and I don’t think anyone that is retired or about to retire (me) is going to be willing to pay this.  Haven’t got my maintenance fee bill yet so we’ll see.
> 
> Anyone know of other options if everyone would stick together?


Is your resort in Mexico and RTU, with some years left on contract? I owned where there was a buyout and the new resort chain is AI. Many of us hated AI and I started a Yahoo group (before Facebook) to organize unhappy owners. We won a really good concession but it took lots of work. If you do own in Mexico feel free to PM me for advice.


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## Patri (Nov 6, 2018)

Just got back from a trip and found this thread. Skimmed through, as I have to go to work. But, very poignant considering over the weekend I talked to someone who stopped paying maintenance on a ts in Hawaii. They had purchased from developer 20 years ago, and fees were about $100 per year. Now they are $2,000. Also, some shady practices from the owner and his family. The location dynamics changed in the past few years, making it even more valuable, so they think developer wants people to walk and he will sell or remodel for another purpose.
It was hard for them to ignore the statements, as they are responsible people in all other ways. A few threatening letters arrived, including turning them over to a collection agency. They said go ahead, we don't need to borrow money any more. And it all went away. This was four years ago and no dings on their credit.
They said they got their money's worth over the decades, but apparently that ts couldn't even be given away on eBay, so they felt they had no other option.


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## BLKBRD370 (Nov 19, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> Yes, I agree. I never buy something sight unseen. Did you know that Molokai has the highest percent of Hawaiians.  I had a Hawaiian friend boat me to North Shore and pick me up in 2 weeks when I did my tenting stint. Hawaiians are slow to let you in but once they have they will do anything for you. Ohana at its best. Also, they are the best neighbors to have once they know you are there for the long haul.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thank you, FF. Just in the process of doing that. Will let you know what happens.
mraich


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## BLKBRD370 (Nov 19, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> Well 2 people can play the same game. Why don’t you just ignore the bill?  Send it back and tell them since you are being ignored on reservations, you will return the favour and ignore the bill. That should get results.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Apologies, FF. My sign-off should have been BB370.


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## LannyPC (Jan 17, 2019)

We currently do not own any TSs so I can't answer the original question honestly but I think this would be an interesting survey question posed to current owners who currently are trying to get rid of their TSs either by deeding back to the resort, listing it for sale/giveaway like here on TUG, or are using these cancel/exit/relief companies to hopefully divest themselves of their timehsare:

*If your MFs were reduced by 25%* (a $1000 MF would become $750, $2000 down to $1500, $2500 down to $1875, etc.), *would you change your mind and keep your TS?*

If they said Yes, then that probably means that they like their TS but the MFs are just a bit too high, probably somewhat higher than what a rental could reasonably fetch.

If they said No, then that probably means that they just want to completely shed that MF.  Probably because they can't travel as much.  Other reasons could be that their traveling patterns and habits have changed.  Or they feel that they could still find something cheaper such as AirBNB, or hotels/motels.


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## LannyPC (Jan 17, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> I prefer to stay at a timeshare or condo type resort any day rather than a Home Away rental or just a hotel.



I prefer that too.  However, I look at the cost of staying in a TS (whether renting or owning and paying MFs) versus paying to stay at an AirBNB or hotel/motel.  For our personal tastes, needs, preferences, and circumstances, we will gladly take the savings and do without the amenities of a TS.

It's kind of like saying, "I would rather drive a Porsche than a Honda Civic."  While that might be preferable, I would choose to take the Honda for that fact that it can do pretty much what the Porsche can but for a lot less money.


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## WinniWoman (Jan 18, 2019)

LannyPC said:


> I prefer that too.  However, I look at the cost of staying in a TS (whether renting or owning and paying MFs) versus paying to stay at an AirBNB or hotel/motel.  For our personal tastes, needs, preferences, and circumstances, we will gladly take the savings and do without the amenities of a TS.
> 
> It's kind of like saying, "I would rather drive a Porsche than a Honda Civic."  While that might be preferable, I would choose to take the Honda for that fact that it can do pretty much what the Porsche can but for a lot less money.




I have to disagree. Well- like anything else- it really just depends. I have paid the same or less for a private timeshare rental than I have for a home or condo through Home Away. Renting directly from a resort- now that is usually more expensive than renting a timeshare privately or ta place hrough Home Away for sure.

We rented directly through a timeshare resort once in Colorado at Rams Head Resort and it was over $2000 for 7 nights but I felt it was worth the splurge for our preferences. I wouldn't say that about all timeshares, though.

However, we plan to also rent at a non timeshare resort (Cable Mountain Lodge)in Utah this year (Gosh- I hope the National Parks are fully open by then!) and it is also very expensive- in that over $2000 range. Again, I feel it will be worth the splurge in our case.

The maintenance fees for our timeshares are less than renting from Home Away.

Even staying in a decent, moderately priced hotel or inn is more than many timeshares.

EX:We just stayed at a lovely inn in NH, where we have stayed numerous times before. It was $400 for 3 nights. A pretty large room with 2 queen beds and a small sitting and one bathroom. Breakfast included. There is also a Fairfield Marriott down the road that charges the same for a smaller room and breakfast included.

The maintenance fee for our 2 bedroom/2bathroom plus loft timeshare condo in NH just 1/2 hour from there is $811. In Vermont we pay a bit over $900 for each week.

We have rented a condo in NH and small lake cottages in Vermont. $1200-$1400 for 7 nights.

We even rented a condo from another owner at the resort in Vermont we own at. It was a big one bedroom across the hall from ours. It cost us I think $700 or $800 for 7 nights, which I thought was fair. Covered his maintenance fees plus a little extra. And- also rented from a Wyndham owner who used her points to book 2 condos at our Vermont resort for a few days for XMAS for us and my brother's family and was still worth it compared to staying in a hotel.


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## Panina (Jan 18, 2019)

LannyPC said:


> I prefer that too.  However, I look at the cost of staying in a TS (whether renting or owning and paying MFs) versus paying to stay at an AirBNB or hotel/motel.  For our personal tastes, needs, preferences, and circumstances, we will gladly take the savings and do without the amenities of a TS.
> 
> It's kind of like saying, "I would rather drive a Porsche than a Honda Civic."  While that might be preferable, I would choose to take the Honda for that fact that it can do pretty much what the Porsche can but for a lot less money.


I feel differently. Owning timeshares saves me money.  Why should I drive a Honda Civic if I could drive a used Porsche that runs better for the same price or less ( Porsche would not be my choice, a Jeep Cherokee would be my choice)?

Find me a descent Marco Island or Key West AirBNB or hotel/motel in February for a week stay that I can rent for under $1200.  With my timeshares I have the best accommodations with the least expense. 

My trades make financial sense too.  Recently stayed at a resort that I traded my under $600 mf week for a resort that would have been over $5000 for the week. It amazes me anyone would spend that much but I know people who do. I also just stayed at a nice hotel, Hampton Inn at a great rate $103 for the night and it just solidified how much nicer and cost effective timeshares are for me.


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