# Update - Dealership Totaled My Car



## Former Cruiser (Aug 11, 2010)

I had my 2005 Toyota Camry into the dealership for a tire rotation and oil change.  While working on the car it fell off the lift.  They told me it has about $8,000 worth of damage (body work, a tire, and a suspension something on one side).  They've contacted their insurance company.  My car is in great condition as I get every service done that is needed each time I have it in, but it has 102,000 thousand miles on it.  It's a good chance their insurance company will total it.  I don't want to buy a new car right now as I was planning on keeping it for at least another year so all my new car money is tied up in CDs.  What are my options if they decide to total it - and let's be realistic, they're not going to give me a new car.


----------



## vacationhopeful (Aug 11, 2010)

Lots of the car manufacturers are doing the 0 interest rate promotion.  As you like to drive the car into the ground  , a 2010 model year is no different than the 2011. Keep your money in CDs.

Plus, I would demand more money from the dealership as you now have NO WHEELS and you have to take YOUR TIME to go car hunting ... when you are driving down the road and stuff happens, so be it. To entrust you car to a dealership who is an expert (negilence is the word) at using their lifts, stuff should not "just happen".

I have 2 car payments right now: my 0 interest rate truck loan and my clunker car loan.  Was not planning on buying the car, but that clunker deal was just too good - the 2010 Focus cost me less than $13,000 with no cash into the purchase.  

Another thought: that insurance company had better be the *DEALER's insurance company*. You have no police report, no other vehicle at fault, no other driver who might have failed a impaired ability test, etc.

Not a TV lawyer. Sure more experience people will comment soon.


----------



## cerralee (Aug 11, 2010)

I'm interested in finding out what happens.  A few years ago, I had old Kia Sportage in the shop for inspection, rotations etc..  Took it out and about five miles down the road the car just fell to the ground.  Two large springs were laying there and it just drug along the pavement till it came to a stop.  I came to the conclusion that it must have fallen off the rack on the way down.  They hemmed and hawed about putting the springs back on and I had to pitch a fit just to get them to get the car back in the garage.  Nothing ever ran right after that, pan leaks, springs and shock problems, universal joint cracks the list just went on and on and they would not accept any responsiblility for it.  I truly didn't know what was normal wear and tear and what was damage from the supposed dropping.  Guess I never will.


----------



## jme (Aug 11, 2010)

did you experience whiplash when told?


----------



## vacationhopeful (Aug 11, 2010)

jme, 
nice ...

But I am sure the tech who was operating the lift felt the earth move.


----------



## Sea Six (Aug 11, 2010)

Are they at least offering you a loaner or rental car in the mean time?  My guess is they will offer you retail value for your car as a down payment on one of their cars on the lot, whether it's new or used (but won't take much if anything off the sticker price). If you buy from somewhere else, you probably won't get as good a deal, maybe just trade-in value for your old car instead of retail.  If I were you, I'd start checking sites like Kelly Blue book (KBB) or NADA, just to get a feel for what the trade-in, private party, and dealer values would be on your car, based on its condition and mileage.


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Aug 11, 2010)

First, they have absolutely ZERO right, imo, to total your car.  This is not a matter of auto accident insurance.  This is negligence plain and simple. Different law applys.  While they had your car they were supposed to follow a standard of care.  When you left yourcar with the dealer to fix a "bailment" may have been created.  Your state has standard ways of determining damages in the case of injury to your property during a bailment.  This falls under the category of tort law.  If they EVEN HINT at totalling your car GET A LAWYER!

Sorry for the use of caps but this really angers me.


----------



## Kal (Aug 11, 2010)

vacationhopeful said:


> ...But I am sure the tech who was operating the lift felt the earth move.


 
At the same time he felt something else MOVE.  Then he had to quickly go change his underware!


----------



## Passepartout (Aug 11, 2010)

Former Cruiser said:


> It's a good chance their insurance company will total it.  I don't want to buy a new car right now as I was planning on keeping it for at least another year so all my new car money is tied up in CDs.  What are my options if they decide to total it - and let's be realistic, they're not going to give me a new car.



It will be interesting to hear what their first offer is. (1) It could be to simply fix your car. (2) It could be give you your car's retail value. (3) They might have a used car you'd like to apply whatever they offer in (2)for. (4) There are lots of 0% interest offers around. You were planning to get a new(er) car in a year anyway. If you are able to get 0% interest and full retail value from the '05, that may be the best outcome. If you choose to have them fix it, they'll require you to hold them blameless if it leaks, rattles, pulls, shimmies, wears out tires, or anything else after you get it back. At 102k, it is still a 'good car', but is by all measurements past it's prime of life, and won't last forever. Whatever happens to the car, you'll link to this accident no matter whether it's linked or not.

Remember, the first offer isn't necessarily the best for you or the last offer you'll get.

Best wishes....

Jim Ricks


----------



## vacationhopeful (Aug 11, 2010)

I would NOT drive that "fixed car". Cerralee experience is a lesson from the school of "hard knocks" (or was that school of "hard drops"?).

Unless you need a credit report showing less debt (getting or refinancing a mortgage), those car ZERO interest loans would keep your CD money earning interest. 

Yes, it is unsettling as to what happened. And it is just NOT how you planned when you were buying a new car.


----------



## classiclincoln (Aug 11, 2010)

Vacationhopeful is correct - the dealership is liable, not your insurance company.  Call your agent and let them know what happened and tell them not to file a claim.  The dealer has the responsibility to protect your car while in their care.  Since they screwed up, they have a responsibility to make you whole again.  You should end up with either your car in the exact same shape as it was when you gave it to them or a comparable car.  Their insurance company may decide to total your car and cut you a check for the value, which is their right.  However, keep in the back of your mind, many businesses self insure for small claims, so they just might tell you their insurance company totaled the car when in fact they'll just pay it themselves.  If you don't like the amount, you just might be able to bargain for more.  You just might want to ask a lawyer just to be sure and have more bullets in your gun.

Stu


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Aug 11, 2010)

I would tell this dealer that I sure will be looking at the Hondas and Nissans, when I am FORCED to get a new car because my perfectly good car was wrecked in their dealership.  

Shoot, I would be mad!  We keep our cars for 10-15 years!  

We have a 2003 Avalon, which I adore, truly love that car, and if the dealer wrecked it, I would make them fix it to new condition, or they would need to give me compensation to make it worth my while to get another one to replace it.  

When Rick's twelve-year-old Toyota pick-up was totaled by a stupid guy who rear-ended it and bent the frame, we only got $2,500 from that guy's insurance company.  It was a beautiful truck, with shell.  The new, nearly identical shell on the new truck, with sport rack and side-opening windows cost more than $2,500.  The new truck was $14K.  It was an expensive accident.  We had no intention of buying a new vehicle for at least five more years.


----------



## bobcat (Aug 11, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I would tell this dealer that I sure will be looking at the Hondas and Nissans, when I am FORCED to get a new car because my perfectly good car was wrecked in their dealership.
> 
> Shoot, I would be mad!  We keep our cars for 10-15 years!
> 
> ...



I would hire a lawyer. Let the dealer pay for him. I would also file with Osha . Someone could have been killed. Next I would get in touch with Toyota and tell them about your problem. Next I would file with the BBB.  Let the lawyer handle the settlement.


----------



## BevL (Aug 11, 2010)

It really comes down to negotiating with them.  If you feel they're not negotiating in good faith, a chat with a lawyer would be in order.


----------



## jlf58 (Aug 11, 2010)

I dream for situations like this LOL
Make sure, whoever works out the deal on your side, knows how to negotiate. I will do it for a fee


----------



## vacationhopeful (Aug 11, 2010)

Car salesmen are cross-trained as timeshare salesmen and vice-a-versa, aren't they?

Be careful.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Aug 11, 2010)

Something Rick just told me that happened yesterday.  He is a Denver firefighter...and a shop totalled a very expensive RV, one of the ones with three slide-outs, huge bus, type A vehicle.  They caught it on fire (something to do with the propane) in the shop while working on it.  No way to know how it happened, but Rick said the engine and the front of vehicle were badly damaged.  Whoa!  One of the guys knew that vehicle would be $250K or so.


----------



## Pit (Aug 11, 2010)

Bummer. Accidents happen.

They simply need to take full responsibility for their mistake. Sounds like they've already suggested $8K as a settlement value. Was that a fair value for the car (before they dropped it). 

Before discussing any numbers with them, you should determine the replacement value. What would it cost you to purchase a similar car in the same good condition? I would not settle for less than that amount.

You don't have to accept whatever their insurance company determines is fair value. The dealership may have to kick in more money to make this problem go away.

If I were you, I would not want the car back. Body shops can do a lot to fix it up, but they will not restore it to factory condition.


----------



## geekette (Aug 11, 2010)

cerralee's story is exactly why I would not be keeping that car.  who knows what really is wrong beyond what they are reporting (seeing, looking for ...)

it's a dealership - do you generally have your cars worked on there?  Then I would ask for a car from their lot to call it even.   and you continue to have your car serviced there.  no mess.  

assuming you like any cars on their lot.  they can order a car from you or pay to have one transported.  

not my fault?  then not my hassle, give me what I want and everybody is happy.


----------



## MuranoJo (Aug 11, 2010)

This situation just boils me, probably because it is so familiar.

For years, I had been buying tires from an established local Mom & Pop dealership for years and they swapped out my tires once a year for snow tires I had purchased from them (a free service).

When doing this several years back with my older car, they didn't tighten the lugbolts on the left front tire, so as I pulled away into heavy traffic, that tire popped off and went rolling across the two lanes of oncoming traffic.  (Luckily, no other car was hit by the tire.)  As it started wobbling, I was able to steer the car to the center turn lane before the car fell to the asphalt.

Traffic backed up as the tire service guys ran out and grabbed the tire, got it back on the car, and navigated me back to the garage pretty quickly.  Owner was so sorry and said his insurance would cover it and to just have my insurance submit the claim.  I trusted them and did so.  They denied it ever happened!! And because it was a free service and I never asked for a receipt because I had trusted them all those years, and before cell phones with cameras, I didn't have a leg to stand on.

My insurance paid and the car looks fine--but I am ticked they got away with that.  It was an older Bimmer with absolutely no accident history and I loved it.


----------



## JeffW (Aug 11, 2010)

classiclincoln said:


> Vacationhopeful is correct - the dealership is liable, not your insurance company...



Technically I think it's ultimately your insurance company that would be required to pay you the value for your car.  They would then submit a counter-claim to the dealership for repayment of that money.  If it's pretty obvious the other party was at fault, and they admit/agree to it, then typically they'll deal with you directly, without having to get your insurance company involved.

Assuming you want to get a replacement vehicle from the dealership, you might be in good shape.  Besides getting full replacement value for your car (which, if you've had it serviced their regularly, they'll already know the exact condition of the car), I'd also ask for the full set of employee (and 'employee-only', not what they advertise to the public) perks: invoice pricing, low/zero percent financing, maybe free extended warranty, etc.  You should be able to get a good deal whether on a new car or used (assuming you'd find a used car there you want).

I'd also have them supply you with a loaner car for at least a little while (2+ weeks).  You might check: if there's a model there you are interested in, see if they have a similar one available as a loaner car.  I know at my Acura dealership, then have current model year cars as loaner.  If you're thinking about buying one, it's a great way to evaluate it first.

Good luck.

Jeff


----------



## pjrose (Aug 12, 2010)

muranojo said:


> . . .
> When doing this several years back with my older car, they didn't tighten the lugbolts on the left front tire, so as I pulled away into heavy traffic, that tire popped off and went rolling across the two lanes of oncoming traffic.  (Luckily, no other car was hit by the tire.)  As it started wobbling, I was able to steer the car to the center turn lane before the car fell to the asphalt.
> 
> . . .



We also ran into a lugnut-challenged mechanic.  He failed to tighten the lugnuts on ALL FOUR wheels - we made it probably a half-mile from his shop, and were going down a nasty hill, when the worsening wobbles prompted us to turn around and go back.  (We shouldn't have even attempted to go back....but didn't know what the problem was at the time.)  We made it back to the shop - barely.  He tightened the lugnuts, but then instead of apologizing and being thankful that his negligence hadn't resulted in a nasty accident, the jerk made a snotty comment about not wanting to make a career out of working on our car.  I responded that even I know how to tighten a lugnut (which I do).  We never went back, of course.  

Re the OP, I would for sure report this to the appropriate regulatory body - OSHA or whoever inspects automobile dealerships.  Someone needs to double-check their lifts and the training of the mechanics to lessen the chances of this happening again, and possibly serious injury to whoever is underneath at the time!


----------



## wauhob3 (Aug 12, 2010)

JeffW said:


> Technically I think it's ultimately your insurance company that would be required to pay you the value for your car.  They would then submit a counter-claim to the dealership for repayment of that money.  If it's pretty obvious the other party was at fault, and they admit/agree to it, then typically they'll deal with you directly, without having to get your insurance company involved.
> 
> Assuming you want to get a replacement vehicle from the dealership, you might be in good shape.  Besides getting full replacement value for your car (which, if you've had it serviced their regularly, they'll already know the exact condition of the car), I'd also ask for the full set of employee (and 'employee-only', not what they advertise to the public) perks: invoice pricing, low/zero percent financing, maybe free extended warranty, etc.  You should be able to get a good deal whether on a new car or used (assuming you'd find a used car there you want).
> 
> ...




I was in an accident with someone going north and a south bound way and I went through her insurance since it was deemed 100% her fault. If I would have went through mine I would have had to pay the deductible which is what was first proposed.


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Aug 12, 2010)

wauhob3 said:


> I was in an accident with someone going north and a south bound way and I went through her insurance since it was deemed 100% her fault. If I would have went through mine I would have had to pay the deductible which is what was first proposed.



This is not an auto accident.  This is a bailment.  When you entrust your property to someone else (a ticket for your coat at a restaurant, a parking attendant, etc.} a bailment is created.  This will be covered by the OPs state law.  If not satisfied with their offer an attorney should be obtained.


----------



## elaine (Aug 12, 2010)

*should not be your insurance*

the reason car dealer is checking with THEIR insurance is that their liability ins. should cover this.  Since you have a relatively low $ value car, here is what I would tell them I would take without involvement of an attorney:

A new Camry; 
A used Camry still under original warranty for at least 1 more year;
A used Camry with an additional deal-paid 3 year extended warranty.

Do NOT accept a "fixed" car  uner any circumstances.

If they do not agree to any of those, then tell them you will need to contact an attorney. Then, find a friend, family, etc. who is an atty who will write them a letter---that is probably all it should take.  It is in the interest of the car dealer's insurance to deal with the at the least expense. Getting an atty involved raises their expense.  

A 2005 Camry with 100K miles could last you for 5 more years. Do NOT accept the "totalled $8K" amount--that is the amount from insurance when you have an accident---not when a professional car dealer with liability ins. drops your car.
Good luck. Elaine


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Aug 12, 2010)

elaine said:


> the reason car dealer is checking with THEIR insurance is that their liability ins. should cover this.  Since you have a relatively low $ value car, here is what I would tell them I would take without involvement of an attorney:
> 
> A new Camry;
> A used Camry still under original warranty for at least 1 more year;
> ...



Not every lawyer is good for all cases.  Lawyers specialize.  Based on my experience I recommend that if you get a lawyer get a lawyer that is experienced in a variety of tort cases.  That person will write the best letter and sue if necessary.


----------



## Kal (Aug 12, 2010)

elaine said:


> ... Since you have a relatively low $ value car, here is what I would tell them I would take without involvement of an attorney:
> 
> A new Camry; ...


 
Yes, the shop damaged your car and you have a legit claim. Your damages are:
+ cost to repair your car
+ cost for rental car while your car is being repaired

The dealer has options:
* Pay the cost to repair your car and interim rental car costs

OR
* provide an identical replacement vehicle

OR
* provide cash payment for the value of the damaged car at the time of the event.

That value can be determined by standard practices, but you hope it is the retail blue book and not the wholesale blue book value or auto auction basis.

Good luck in trying to get a brand new car or anything more than the current value of your car. Car dealers live in the world of car prices and are not a charitable organization by any means.

If they choose to repair the car, a claim by you that the repair did not return it to pre-existing conditions must be supported by factual documented evidence. That's a difficult challenge and it cannot be based on notions.

Definitely set your targets on pie in the sky (including a BRAND NEW CAMRY), but if you think you will get anything more than your loss of $8000, it's a pipe dream. The fact that you had hoped to extract that last amount of depreciated value out of the car is the compensation you will receive. These guys are not virgins.


----------



## Passepartout (Aug 12, 2010)

I think that many of you are too quick to jump on the litigious bandwagon. Lets see what the dealership offers. They don't want this blown out of proportion. It was an accident fer cryin' out loud. No one was hurt.

Since the OP took her soon-to-be 6 year old Camry to the dealer for an oil change and rotation instead of Joe Shadetree's, I'd imagine she's a good customer and they don't want to lose her. 

There's time for putting pressure on them if necessary after an initial offer of restitution.

Jim Ricks


----------



## Kal (Aug 12, 2010)

pgnewarkboy said:


> Not every lawyer is good for all cases. Lawyers specialize. Based on my experience I recommend that if you get a lawyer get a lawyer that is experienced in a variety of tort cases. That person will write the best letter and sue if necessary.


 
I wonder what the attorney costs will be?  It's either hourly rates or a percentage of the settlement (maybe 30-40%?).  The fact that there is no personal injury makes the settlement a clear number and you don't have variable wiggle room to pad the numbers.

Go to court and the costs will far, far exceed the damage and it's a crap shoot on getting a judge to award attorney fees.


----------



## Kal (Aug 12, 2010)

Passepartout said:


> I think that many of you are too quick to jump on the litigious bandwagon. Lets see what the dealership offers. They don't want this blown out of proportion...


 
Let's make ourselves the dealership owner.  Now how much more are we willing to pay (beyond actual damage $$) to keep this customer?  From a pure financial point of view, how much profit will we receive from this person over time.  If the extra "good will" payment is say $1000, the customer would have to spend a boat load of money in the service department for me to recoup that $1000.

My guess is the OP has no leverage to promise to remain a continuing customer.  If it were me and given the current experience on poor performance, I would never go back to that dealer.  The dealership didn't fall off the turnip truck in this type of evaluation so hoping for "good will money" is a dream.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Aug 12, 2010)

I concur that most people are making this more complicated than it need be.  

This is a pretty straightforward and simple tort situation.  They broke something that you owned.  The legal system deals with cases such as this all of the time.

You are entitled to be compensated for the value of what they broke, plus other direct costs. The value of the car is very easily established. The fact that you loved the car, planned to drive it for years, is the best car you've ever owned, is irrelevant.  The only thing that counts is what they car would sell for, and that is easily established with a used car guide such as Kelly's or NADA.

The value of a rental car for transportation for a reasonable period of time while your car is either repaired or you get a new car is easy to figure out.  

That will set the framework for any settlement offer.  They will likely be willing to pay you some amount above that as compensation for additional hassles.

*****

You, of course, will start negotiating significantly higher than that amount.  They will likely start by offering blue book + car rental costs.  Both parties will work from there.  If your lower bound for the "hassles" compensation and their upper bound on what they are willing to pay intersect, a settlement will be reached.

If you don't reach an agreement and decide on legal action, you almost certainly will wind up with significantly less.  Attorney's costs are generally not recoverable in tort actions, and this case is so small that no competent attorney will take it on a contingency basis.  Meaning you will pay hourly rates, which will easily exceed $10,000.


----------



## Ken555 (Aug 12, 2010)

Kal said:


> Let's make ourselves the dealership owner.  Now how much more are we willing to pay (beyond actual damage $$) to keep this customer?  From a pure financial point of view, how much profit will we receive from this person over time.  If the extra "good will" payment is say $1000, the customer would have to spend a boat load of money in the service department for me to recoup that $1000.
> 
> My guess is the OP has no leverage to promise to remain a continuing customer.  If it were me and given the current experience on poor performance, I would never go back to that dealer.  The dealership didn't fall off the turnip truck in this type of evaluation so hoping for "good will money" is a dream.



I agree with Kal. You need to demand satisfaction in the strongest terms, which may include having an attorney assist (of course, I would start with a family attorney to keep costs down if possible). Your dealer is not on your side, and never was regardless of how good their customer service was in the past. They are looking out only for themselves.

As an aside, this is also a great story for local news to cover. If you don't immediately get satisfaction, you might call a local paper/tv... The dealer may be quick to settle at that point.


----------



## pjrose (Aug 12, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> . . .
> As an aside, this is also a great story for local news to cover. If you don't immediately get satisfaction, you might call a local paper/tv... The dealer may be quick to settle at that point.



Oh yeah.....good idea.  

And regarding the discussion above about what the dealer might be willing to pay to keep the customer, remember it's probably the dealer's insurance company not the dealer.  I would think that retail value of car in excellent condition + rental car (or dealer loaner) + around $1K would be reasonable - and if that doesn't happen, letter from attorney and suggestion about calling news station - but I still also think this needs to be reported to whoever inspects and licenses repair shops.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Aug 12, 2010)

pjrose said:


> Oh yeah.....good idea.
> 
> And regarding the discussion above about what the dealer might be willing to pay to keep the customer, remember it's probably the dealer's insurance company not the dealer.  I would think that retail value of car in excellent condition + rental car (or dealer loaner) + around $1K would be reasonable - and if that doesn't happen, letter from attorney and suggestion about calling news station - but I still also think this needs to be reported to whoever inspects and licenses repair shops.



My hunch is that is an attainable settlment.  I would start higher, but if that were my bottom line I think a deal could be made.

I'm not sure the dealer's insurance company will be involved.  If this loss is within the dealers deductible, they might decide to handle it themselves instead of filing a claim.

******

Also, the issue of what the dealer will pay for "good will" isn't just the value of the customers future business.  The dealer also has to be concerned with business reputation and "word of mouth".  

Depending on how committed the dealer is to maintaining a reputation of being a place the treats customers right and goes the extra mile to ensure satisfaction, they may be willing to extend themselves further.


----------



## Ken555 (Aug 12, 2010)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Also, the issue of what the dealer will pay for "good will" isn't just the value of the customers future business.  The dealer also has to be concerned with business reputation and "word of mouth".
> 
> Depending on how committed the dealer is to maintaining a reputation of being a place the treats customers right and goes the extra mile to ensure satisfaction, they may be willing to extend themselves further.



Exactly! 

I'll agree with others and reinforce the suggestion of starting at an almost unreasonable starting point (ie. "new car only") with the intention of negotiating. Their business is car sales, so if you get into a negotiation with them you will likely lose unless you prepare in advance. Don't lock yourself into a corner by starting too low.


----------



## e.bram (Aug 12, 2010)

pjrose;
that is known as extortion and can get you in jail.(Look at the guy that tried that on Letterman)


----------



## pjrose (Aug 12, 2010)

e.bram said:


> pjrose;
> that is known as extortion and can get you in jail.(Look at the guy that tried that on Letterman)



What, suggesting that I might call the news media?


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Aug 12, 2010)

*Never play lawyer when a real one is needed*

There is a big difference, however,  between "playing lawyer" and being a lawyer.  In a bailment case under tort law special damages can be assessed including but not limited to attorney's fees, business losses, or any other losses proximately caused by the tortious conduct of the defendant.

If the OP is not satisfied with the offer, imo, the OP should seek the advice of a knowledgeable attorney - not Uncle Fred, or Cousin Susie, or someone who is in law school.  The only cost involved may be a consultation fee and a fee for writing a letter.  The OP and the attorney can decide if litigation is worth it or not.  The lawyer will be the first person to tell him if it is not worth their time to sue.


----------



## vacationhopeful (Aug 12, 2010)

Well said, pgnewarkboy.

Thank you for your observations.


----------



## JeffW (Aug 12, 2010)

I certainly wouldn't expect to receive a new $16k car as compensation for damaging one worth $8k.  However, if they give you value for your car as being in good or excellent condition, and let you pay invoice price for that  $16k sticker price car, then it might only cost you perhaps $6k to get a $16k car.  That's not a bad deal.  Plus that's an extra car they can count as sold, and additional service income over at least the next few years. 

If they handle this all in-house, and don't have to get either their insurance company or lawyers involved, that's worth a little extra expense to them.

Jeff


----------



## carl2591 (Aug 12, 2010)

JeffW said:


> I certainly wouldn't expect to receive a new $16k car as compensation for damaging one worth $8k.  However, if they give you value for your car as being in good or excellent condition, and let you pay invoice price for that  $16k sticker price car, then it might only cost you perhaps $6k to get a $16k car.  That's not a bad deal.  Plus that's an extra car they can count as sold, and additional service income over at least the next few years.




You should be looking well below "invoice" price.. case in point,, a guy was buying a new 2011 Hyundai Sonata Limited with nav package. this is a car that is listing out at close to 28,500 dollars.. they were also buying a 2009 SUV type vehicle that was left over.. it was new less than 1,000 miles.. he was paying cash and got a deal on the new (2011)car paying less than $23,000.. but was paying close to sticker for the SUV product and got some rebate discounts alone the way.. 

the dealer told him and was showing the paper work on the 2011 at $23,000 dollars on the sonata, the dealer was only making about 100 bucks on this deal.. 

the "invoice" price is fake.. its only a couple thousand below the MSR..(retail price) the true cost of this car was $5,500 less than retail.. you can find invoice price at Edmund.com.  take that price and double it for a real dealer cost.


----------



## MuranoJo (Aug 13, 2010)

pjrose said:


> We also ran into a lugnut-challenged mechanic.



Guess it is lugnut and not lugbolts.  I must have been thinking of lugbolts because they bolted out of their responsibility.   

To the OP, best of luck--at least they aren't denying anything ever happened.


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Aug 13, 2010)

muranojo said:


> Guess it is lugnut and not lugbolts.  I must have been thinking of lugbolts because they bolted out of their responsibility.
> 
> To the OP, best of luck--at least they aren't denying anything ever happened.



A car gets smashed in the dealers repair shop and they deny it ever happened!  Sounds like AREA 51 stuff to me.


----------



## Mosca (Aug 13, 2010)

This should be pretty simple. If your car is worth, say, $10,000, then you should be able to take that settlement and buy a 2005 Camry with about 102k miles on it with the settlement money.

Even better, if your dealership GM is friendly, offer to accompany him to the auction and buy as much Camry as you can with the settlement money. You could probably get a 2007 with 60k. Remember that insurance settlement money is retail (they are replacing your car), and auction prices are true wholesale. If you do this, then you can turn what is a bad situation for both into a good situation for both. You'll get more car, in exchange for your time and aggravation. They get to help you get said better car, to help alleviate their embarrasment.


----------



## Kal (Aug 13, 2010)

Mosca said:


> This should be pretty simple. If your car is worth, say, $10,000, then you should be able to take that settlement and buy a 2005 Camry with about 102k miles on it with the settlement money.
> 
> Even better, if your dealership GM is friendly, offer to accompany him to the auction and buy as much Camry as you can with the settlement money. You could probably get a 2007 with 60k. Remember that insurance settlement money is retail (they are replacing your car), and auction prices are true wholesale. If you do this, then you can turn what is a bad situation for both into a good situation for both. You'll get more car, in exchange for your time and aggravation. They get to help you get said better car, to help alleviate their embarrasment.


 
The dealership will minimize their costs.  First priority to them is to repair the car.  If the repair cost exceeds what they consider to be the value of the car, they will likely turn it over to the insurance company.  The insurance company will write a check for the minimum amount.  Time is money and I can't imagine they will hold the OP's hand and play footsie.


----------



## Mosca (Aug 13, 2010)

Kal said:


> The dealership will minimize their costs.  First priority to them is to repair the car.  If the repair cost exceeds what they consider to be the value of the car, they will likely turn it over to the insurance company.  The insurance company will write a check for the minimum amount.  Time is money and I can't imagine they will hold the OP's hand and play footsie.



I've worked retail automotive for 25 years, and have often "held hands and played footsie"; we're people, too. I can't speak for the people at that dealership, though. Sometimes real people are mule holes, and they very well might that. There are lots of those in retail automotive, as we all know. 

The insurance settlements are numbers driven. They are usually an average of NADA and KBB retail. Here in PA, they include sales tax as well. Because that's what's being insured, the retail value of the car. The insurance company has to justify their offer, that is why they give a valuation report. 

What I'm saying is that if the car is totaled, see if they'll do that. Some dealerships will; we would. It's not that big a deal, to go to the auction that you were already going to and buying a car, or buying it from Manheim Online. If they don't, all it cost you was a few sentences. They have lots of reasons to want to do it; but again, they could be total jerks, which, again, there are lots of in this business. 

Car people run the gamut. I've met the worst people ever in this business, people I wouldn't trust with spare change in my desk drawer, and I've also met some of the finest people I've ever known, people I would trust with my life. It never hurts to ask.

As far as minimizing loss, that involves more than dollars; it involves the intangibles. The good car people know how to put a value to the intangibles. This is a case with high side intangibles, that would cost almost nothing to cover. But again, these might not be very good car people.


----------



## funtime (Aug 14, 2010)

This is really an unfortunate circumstance but a relatively simple transaction as there is a fairly known fixed value to the car that was damaged and with 102,000 miles, it does not look like you could make an argument that it was a low mileage car to enhance its value.  Since there is no personal injury to a person there is no intangible loss.  Long story short, this is not the sort of case in my view to get a lawyer involved with.  There is not enough at risk to justify the additional fees of a professional and a "lawyer letter" will do little or nothing since the dealership most certainly has a law firm on retainer.  What is the lawyer to say that you cannot?  So look to your sources such as blue book etc to find the fair market value of your car.  You can also search for cars on ebay.  Good luck.   Funtime


----------



## cgeidl (Aug 14, 2010)

*Demand a free rental until settled.*

Personally I would try to deal with them directly and give them a chance before 
mentioning the L word. We have had a problem with two vehicles and received very satisfactory settlements without a lawyer. Remember who gets rich when you get lawyers involved.
I would be less costly and better press for the dealer to pay you something extra than to have you get a lawyer involved.
Insist on a free good rental until settlement is made .


----------



## Zac495 (Aug 14, 2010)

I don't have much more to add - but what a BUMMER. Please make sure you let us know what happens!!!


----------



## pedro47 (Aug 14, 2010)

Good luck Former Cruiser in this sad matter.


----------



## Former Cruiser (Aug 15, 2010)

*Dealership Totaled My Car - Update*

Their insurance company did total our car.  We weren't happy with the amount, but got no where with them.  

Thursday we had a meeting with the owner of the dealership.  I told him what the Ins. Co. is giving us and showed him comparable cars in the area that were about $2,000 more than what we are receiving.  He told us to go look at the cars, and if we decided on one of them he would work with that dealer to get the price we needed even if he had to pay part.  We thought that was fair.  

He then offered us invoice price on a 2011 Camry.  Toyota is offering .9% financing.  I told him I didn't want a car payment as after I had paid the car off, just over 2 years ago, we have been saving the money to pay cash for a car for my husband in about 20 months as his will be 7 years old.  He then told me he didn't find many people as disciplined as me and suggested that we could put the insurance check in our account and make the payments from that.  It would pay for about 20 months of payments.   

He then told us about a 2005 Camry that was being traded in on Monday that belonged to the previous owner of the dealership.  It had only 70,000 miles.  He said he would sell us that car for the amount of the Ins. check.  

We left to mull over the options.  

We went back today and bought the new Camry (2011).  We requested the Platinum Plus card ($499 + tax) that we had had on the previous car, and told him we weren't going to pay their $250 Documentation Fee (highest allowed by Ohio law).

So we left there with the new car.  My husband asked me why he didn't feel good about the deal.  I told him NOBODY ever leaves a dealership after buying a car without the feeling they've been screwed.


----------



## Kal (Aug 15, 2010)

Lesson to be learned:

Take your car to a dealer, the dealer destroys the car, and the car owner buys a new car from the dealer.

Sounds like an interesting way to sell cars!


----------



## Passepartout (Aug 15, 2010)

Former Cruiser, Congratulations on your new purchase. Here's wishing many many safe and happy journeys.

Jim Ricks


----------



## Zac495 (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks for updating. I'm glad you got a car - I'm sorry you went through this. Just remember - it's a car - and no one was hurt. Nevertheless, what a PAIN!!!


----------



## Mosca (Aug 15, 2010)

The offer to deal on the comparable cars was a fair one, as was the offer of the '05 Camry with 70k. 

The reason you guys felt bad about the deal is that it was a bad situation. You didn't want to have to buy a car. Even if it was a good deal numbers wise, numbers aren't always the whole story. In fact, they are usually the least important part of the story. 

Enjoy your new car. There ARE a lot of benefits that come from having a new one; there are safety improvements, comfort and convenience improvements, quality improvements. You're now completely under warranty, which while the cars are Toyotas, 106k miles is still 106k miles and things can happen; warranty is still good. May you never have to go through such a thing again.


----------



## elaine (Aug 15, 2010)

*the owner sounded VERY fair*

the owner sounded VERY fair--he gave you a lot of decent options, esp. paying out of pocket for a comparable used car on another lot.  Given this, I am sure they made you the best deal they could for the new car. Elaine


----------



## teepeeca (Aug 15, 2010)

It does sound as if the dealership/owner wanted you to be satisfied.  Getting the old Camry with 70K miles on it for the amount of the check would have meant that you would have had the same model/year car that was destroyed, with over 30k less miles.  That would have been a good value.

Getting the new car (even though you didn't want to have car payments) was also very fair, and I'm pretty sure they gave you an excellent price and terms for the new vehicle.

After the "dust settles", I'm willing to bet that you will "still" be a loyal customer of that dealership.

Tony


----------



## pjrose (Aug 15, 2010)

Money-wise I guess it's fair if the invoice price is REALLY what the dealership paid for the car....i.e. if they didn't make a profit from it.  I've never quite understood whether or not the invoice price is the dealer cost.

Beyond the money, though, as noted there are a lot of benefits - safety and other features, and you'll obviously get many more years from this new car, and you won't have repair costs as long as it's under warranty.  

One thing I'm still concerned about is what the dealer is going to do about preventing similar accidents.  What caused the accident in the first place? Was it mechanic error? Has that mechanic been re-schooled in proper procedures? Was it a lift problem? Has the lift been inspected by the appropriate service-shop-inspection people?


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Aug 15, 2010)

The dealer of course made a profit from the new car.  Why should the dealer profit from its (their) own mistake!  That's why I would have gone to the Nissan or Honda dealer. 

But the finance rate was good.  We have been saving for 4 years for our next car, and now we have enough money and don't want to get a new car yet.  

I think I need to buy more timeshares with that money. :rofl:


----------



## ricoba (Aug 15, 2010)

Kal said:


> Lesson to be learned:
> 
> Take your car to a dealer, the dealer destroys the car, and the car owner buys a new car from the dealer.
> 
> Sounds like an interesting way to sell cars!




Something wrong with this whole picture, isn't there?   

I agree with previous advice that a lawyer should have been consulted.


----------



## glypnirsgirl (Aug 15, 2010)

ricoba said:


> Something wrong with this whole picture, isn't there?
> 
> I agree with previous advice that a lawyer should have been consulted.



I think that this was a pretty good outcome. I don't think that a lawyer could have done any better and would have cost more in both time and money. 

It sounds like the dealership was reputable and tried to get a good outcome for everyone. They did not do the sleazy thing and deny that there was any problem. Instead, they worked to get a positive outcome.

elaine


----------



## glypnirsgirl (Aug 15, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> The dealer of course made a profit from the new car.  Why should the dealer profit from its (their) own mistake!  That's why I would have gone to the Nissan or Honda dealer.
> 
> But the finance rate was good.  We have been saving for 4 years for our next car, and now we have enough money and don't want to get a new car yet.
> 
> I think I need to buy more timeshares with that money. :rofl:



That is what Ian and I did when it was my turn to get a new car. I have 2002 Honda GX that I love. It now has 150K miles on it and it is still going strong.

Ian wanted me to get a car so that when it was his turn, he would be ready to get one. I told him I wanted more DVC points (it was before I discovered TUG) instead. So that is what we did. That was 3 years ago and I am still happy with the choice.

elaine


----------



## Mosca (Aug 15, 2010)

pjrose said:


> One thing I'm still concerned about is what the dealer is going to do about preventing similar accidents.  What caused the accident in the first place? Was it mechanic error? Has that mechanic been re-schooled in proper procedures? Was it a lift problem? Has the lift been inspected by the appropriate service-shop-inspection people?



pjr, we had a lift fail once; it was newly installed, about 2 weeks old, and it was a heavy-duty lift, for trucks over 15,000 GVW. It had a box van on, and Steve had just stepped from underneath it; the building shook when it fell. In that instance, we sued the lift company for the truck (it was ours) and to the building. They sent a whole team out to analyze the mess. That was about 10 years ago. I'm sure it cost them quite a bit. They put a new lift in that we had no further problems with. 

Lifts get inspected frequently, but I don't know how often that actually is. It could be user error, which is most likely.


----------



## carl2591 (Aug 15, 2010)

teepeeca said:


> It does sound as if the dealership/owner wanted you to be satisfied.  Getting the old Camry with 70K miles on it for the amount of the check would have meant that you would have had the same model/year car that was destroyed, with over 30k less miles.  That would have been a good value.
> 
> Tony



Getting the same year car you had with 70K miles for the insurance payoff in my mind, was the best deal.. now you have >>>>> car payments>>>>> I am guessing when you took your 2005 camry in to be serviced you were going to pick it up and drive it home and continue driving for a couple more months if not years. 

if you got a new 2010 camry for invoice they got the better of the deal as the new 2011 are on the way to dealerships and all the 2010 become holdovers with a 3% rebate to the dealer.. 

having a "new" car is nice but a newer car with NO payments is nicer.. 

plus if the 2005 was the what they said, previous dealership owners car,  then all service record would be there and you can see what was done and when..


----------



## pjrose (Aug 15, 2010)

carl2591 said:


> Getting the same year car you had with 70K miles for the insurance payoff in my mind, was the best deal..



Not necessarily.  I'd agree IF you know how the 70K mile car was cared for, but otherwise you just can't tell.  We typically get trade-ins that have very low mileage (8-25K) but enough years to reduce the value; we maintain them well and drive our cars for 150K miles plus.  We have seen plenty of cars with 50-80K miles that we wouldn't touch because they clearly weren't maintained like ours are.


----------



## Ken555 (Aug 15, 2010)

I think you got a fair resolution and you saved countless hours with lawyers, paperwork, and "worry". Enjoy your new car!


----------



## Ken555 (Aug 15, 2010)

pjrose said:


> Not necessarily.  I'd agree IF you know how the 70K mile car was cared for, but otherwise you just can't tell.  We typically get trade-ins that have very low mileage (8-25K) but enough years to reduce the value; we maintain them well and drive our cars for 150K miles plus.  We have seen plenty of cars with 50-80K miles that we wouldn't touch because they clearly weren't maintained like ours are.



I absolutely agree with this. Personally, I'm nervous about buying someone else's problem. Even so, I sometimes buy a car with mileage... my current car was driven by the auto corp execs (not the dealership), had 15,100 miles on it but was sold as a new car since title had never transferred until I got it. It's been a great car and the dealership takes good care of it...my lease is up next year (it's a company car) and I'll decide then if I'm going to buy it or get another (I wasn't going to since it had the extra 15k miles, but I don't drive much so I expect it to have about 37k at the end of the lease). In the past, I've always bought the cars I lease, keep them a few years, and then they sell for more than bluebook (I take extremely good care of my cars). But leasing isn't for everyone...esp with financing as low as it is right now... but that's another topic altogether...


----------



## Timeshare Von (Aug 15, 2010)

It's easy for others to say what they'd do, but the situation isn't "ours".  With that said, there is no way I would have bought another car from the dealer that through their neglect, my paid off car was destroyed!


----------



## Former Cruiser (Aug 16, 2010)

It was human error that caused the car to fall.  He didn't secure it right and my husband thinks the tech forgot it was a V6 engine as they also said it became front heavy and fell.  I imagine there will be a retraining of all techs that use lifts.

We decided on the 2011 because if they couldn't fix our problem, we didn't want to buy someone else's problem.

Thank you for all the support.


----------



## Patri (Aug 16, 2010)

Former Cruiser said:


> So we left there with the new car.  My husband asked me why he didn't feel good about the deal.  I told him NOBODY ever leaves a dealership after buying a car without the feeling they've been screwed.



So true. LOL
You did well. People have to remember that this was an accident. It could have been a crash at an intersection, or a tire blowing on the interstate. It was not intentional. Insurance handled it as they should have. The dealer tried to be fair. You got a new car, which would have been your solution with any accident.


----------

