# DC Membership vs Independent Villa Rental: Differences?



## CMF (Jun 17, 2007)

Never one to be afraid to ask dumb questions:

What is the benefit to buying into a DC when there are many opportunities to rent villas independently of a DC?

And/or, the reverse:  What are the benefits of renting a villa w/o joining a DC?

Also [an aside tag along question] part of the experience that I enjoy when staying at Marriott TS is that my kids meet other kids to play with at the pool.  My wife and I also like meeting new folks in the public areas.  I know next to nothing about DCs, but my assumption is that you are just renting a very nice house in a very nice location and there are limited social opportunities.

Why am I asking these question?  Because I am toying with the idea of spending  somewhere in the neighborhood of $20K on another TS and want to know if there is a substantially better product out in the world for $10k more.

I look forward to reading your interesting replies.


Charles


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## Steamboat Bill (Jun 17, 2007)

Here is my input:

1. I own multiple TS and also joined one DC, they are complimentary products, not necessairly competing products.

2. If you can rent villas and are happy with your results....bravo. I have tried VRBO and other sites and have not had much success and the products often don't match the descriptions. A DC has a collection of homes of equal quality and central reservations. In addition, I find my HCC membership costs me about $300 per night which is way lower than I can rent a similar unit for.

3. Yes, DCs offer more privacy than TS, this is both good and bad. It depends on your mood. 

4. Like you, we also have a Marriott for personal use or trading, a Westgate for ski week, DVC for Disney only, and a DC for upscale relaxed travel.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 17, 2007)

To me, the single most differentiating factor of a DC vs. a Villa rental is the EXCLUSIVE nature of the product.  If you are a member, you are a member of an exclusive club.  You know the American Express tagline "membership has its privileges."  A DC is a case in point.

DC's cater to the affluent.  The average net worth of a DC customer is $3M.  So, they have a significant amount of assets and disposable income.  When you are at that level of networth, there are many products developed just for your income/networth bracket.  Those luxury products include high end jewelry, boats and yachts, high end cars, Luxury home furnishings, SPAs, country clubs and other types of memberships and more.  High networth people hire many more services than middle income folks as well.   A DC is a hyrbid luxury product with services built into it.

One very important attribute of high networth customers is Exclusivity.  Not anyone can be a member.  Try getting an American Express Black Card.  Here is a picture of one:






Here is a description of it:

American Express Black Card description

This is one of the most exclusive products on earth.  It has an annual fee of $2500 with a $5000 initiation fee.  And, it has an annual spending requirement of $250,000.

You can get an American Express Platinum Card for free.  And, if you have high networth and great credit history, you can charge $250,000 or more per year.  So, why would anyone pay these high fees to get one.  In an word, EXCLUSIVITY.

Now, there are some potential upside benefits to owning a DC such as potential capital appreciation of your member deposit.  So, that is something that you can model financially.

But, just like in purchasing Disney Vacation Club points vs. other high end Timeshares, you can estimate the cost of exclusivity like you can the cost of magic.  Someday, when I have more time, I'll create a model for it.  For simplicity purposes, here is what I would use for my own calculations.

Assumptions: 
    - Member fee = whatever it is
    - Annual fee = whatever it is
    - Number of days = whatever your plan calls for
    - Breakage = realistic number of days that will go unused.
    - 5% annual appreciation of underlying assets  
    - 20% loss of initial investment given 80% rule.
    - holding period = 5 years (pick any amount of time)
    - 11% hurdle rate given membership deposit = unsecured subordinate interest free loan
    - 5% inflation on the annual fee.  On the low side given last 5 year record

The hurdle rate you choose depends on whether or not there is competition for your cash for alternatives that you would be considering.  For instance, if you have money that would otherwise sit in a bank account doing nothing, then you can use the lower number of 11% given the risk level of your deposit.  Alternatively, if you actively invest capital, you should use whatever your expected return on capital is if you have opportunities that can return more.  This will give you a more accurate picture of your real costs.  

You take all these inputs, model them in a simple spreadsheet and you can estimate your real expected cost per night by discounting all of the cash flows to the present.  Using the 5 years expected holding period is good because you can use that as the expect time by which your initial member deposit will grow in capital appreciation where it will return your original cash deposit.  In addition, if you hold the DC for longer durations, it is possible for this investment to return even more to you.  However, the longer you hold it, the higher probability that you won't use 100% of your use nights either.  As with anything, if you own an asset long enough, you start using it less over time as other interests take precedence in your life.  Given the choices available to high net worth people, it doesn't take 5 years to get bored with something.

I think I read a post where one DC had an entry level deposit of $225,000 plus $12900 annual fee for 35 nights.  And, you can't book holiday weeks easily at this level.

So, using my model the average per night would be over $1000 per night of use assuming 100% occupancy of my nights.

You can get once heckuva rental for $1000 per night.

Just like there is a cost of Magic for purchasing Disney Vacation Club points, there is a cost of Exclusivity for DC purchases.  If you can afford it and don't care about the money involved, it could be a good thing.  It just depends on how much exclusivity is worth to you.


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## Steamboat Bill (Jun 17, 2007)

BocaBum99 said:


> DC's cater to the affluent.  The average net worth of a DC customer is $3M.  So, they have a significant amount of assets and disposable income.  When you are at that level of networth, there are many products developed just for your income/networth bracket.  Those luxury products include high end jewelry, boats and yachts, high end cars, Luxury home furnishings, SPAs, country clubs and other types of memberships and more.  High networth people hire many more services than middle income folks as well.   A DC is a hyrbid luxury product with services built into it.



I agree with the above quote, however High Country Club may be an exception as the above figure is primarily based upon T&H and ER members that pay $200,000-$500,000 to join a DC where HCC charges $30,000-$50,000 for typical members.

As I have posted dozens of times, only HCC (and PE Premiere) offer DC memebrship at costs that approximate a high-end timehsare.

Seeing that I own three timehsares and one DC (HCC), I can tell you that HCC is a great deal and a great addition to my vacation portfolio.


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## Elsway (Jun 17, 2007)

BocaBum99 said:


> I think I read a post where one DC had an entry level deposit of $225,000 plus $12900 annual fee for 35 nights.  And, you can't book holiday weeks easily at this level.
> 
> So, using my model the average per night would be over $1000 per night of use assuming 100% occupancy of my nights.
> 
> ...



The membership you are referring to is the Exclusive Resorts Affiliate membership.  It includes 15 days (not 35).

The cost per night can be easily estimated - Helium Report includes a simple calculator:  http://www.heliumreport.com/destination-clubs/costpernight-online-calculator-000504.php

The cost per night for Exclusive Resorts Affiliate is about $2,250 (assuming a 5% opportunity cost and 10 years of membership).  To determine value - this nightly rental fee should be compared to the cost or renting $3 million homes (ER's average property value).

I believe that most people who join a DC aren't as much interested in "Exclusivity" as they are in "Luxury at a reasonable price."


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 17, 2007)

Never mind.  I may want to do this idea.  So, I deleted it.


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## GregGH (Jun 17, 2007)

*better rental site option needed*



Steamboat Bill said:


> .    snip .....If you can rent villas and are happy with your results....bravo. I have tried VRBO and other sites and have not had much success and the products often don't match the descriptions.



If anyone can point out a high end rental web site-- that would be appreciated.

I have not found a web site that separates out the better quality rentals from the beaten up ones.  And the owners -should be shot for some of the poor pictures and lack of aerial map to show location.

Why can't someone have a 'quality only' locations or at least a search option to sort out the 'others'. 

Also would like to have past renters comments.  Like a www.tripadvisor.com for rental locations.

Even the DC's are vague on the location - but once you figure it out ( like Turks HCC ) you can see what is available for rental in same location.

ps - some great conversations going on in this forum

Regards
Greg H


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## travelguy (Jun 18, 2007)

GregGH said:


> Even the DC's are vague on the location - but once you figure it out ( like Turks HCC ) you can see what is available for rental in same location.



Agreed that just about any property that houses a DC unit should be a good location for a rental.  BUT, remember that a good bit of what makes a DC unit a pleasurable luxury travel accommodation is the furnishings and amenities.  

This was really brought home to me when I stayed at the High Country Club Aspen property.  This condo is part of a slope side complex that had the exterior and grounds totally renovated.  The location is absolutely fabulous and HCC spent about $100K on the interior and it shows.  I observed the unit next door which had the doors wide open while the housekeepers were in it.  The decor was 70s shag with orange and brown highlights, formica counters and bean-bag and wicker furniture.  Looked like it was patterned after those old Mod James Bond ski movies!

I also checked the local RE info and saw a disparity of about $150k in the sale prices of same-size units in that condo complex over the previous 6 months.  I was able to find some of the old ads for the sold units with pictures of the interior and the main difference in price seemed to be interior furnishing and amenities.

Thus far, my experience with DCs is that it's been cheaper, more luxurious, easier and plain old more fun than villa rentals OR timeshare exchanges.   And I haven't even noticed that I don't have a deed to the property.


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## TarheelTraveler (Jun 18, 2007)

I agree with the prior posters that renting a villa or condo is very much a hit or miss affair.  Sometimes the place is great, sometimes horrible.   Even at its best, it does not compare to a DC residence.  Based on personal experience with my DC and my understanding with others is that the house includes just about anything that you can think of, such as extra printer cartridges, a dozen martini glasses, fantastic cookware to obscure gourmet kitchen utensils, movies, video games, board games, etc.  Also, when I compared the rental costs to my average per day cost, the rental fees are much higher comparing similar residences (at least 50% higher to double in most cases when I compared).


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## pwrshift (Jun 22, 2007)

*Maid service at DC's?*

Just curious, seeing you are comparing ritzy hotels to DC's ... do you get twice daily maid & turndown service at DC's.  I really like those chocolates they put on each bed at night!  

Or do you pay all that money for a membership and still have to make your own beds?

Brian


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## NeilGoBlue (Jun 22, 2007)

pwrshift said:


> Just curious, seeing you are comparing ritzy hotels to DC's ... do you get twice daily maid & turndown service at DC's.  I really like those chocolates they put on each bed at night!
> 
> Or do you pay all that money for a membership and still have to make your own beds?
> 
> Brian



You get daily maid service at Bellehavens.  (don't know about chocolates..I'll let you know in July)


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## TarheelTraveler (Jun 23, 2007)

With most DCs, you get daily maid service.  For example, for our most recent trip, we had half day maid service (would have stayed for longer if we needed it).  She helped with breakfast, made coffee, made fresh pineapple cocktail mixer for the afternoon, made the beds, did laundry, etc.  Didn't get the chocolates, but I'm sure that can be arranged.


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## Elsway (Jun 23, 2007)

pwrshift said:


> Just curious, seeing you are comparing ritzy hotels to DC's ... do you get twice daily maid & turndown service at DC's.  I really like those chocolates they put on each bed at night!
> 
> Or do you pay all that money for a membership and still have to make your own beds?
> 
> Brian



Some clubs only offer mid-week maid service (Ultimate Resorts).  Daily service costs extra.


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## GOLFNBEACH (Aug 31, 2007)

Digging up this old post because I have the same question as the original poster.  I am interested in DC's and HCC in particular because of the lower prices and TUG recommendations.

My family is interested in visiting Italy next summer.  HCC has some nice properties in Tuscany at the Villa Petrischio.  The HCC website has a link to the Villa's website.  I checked the room rates and the most expenisve villa was only $310 Euros / night.

Why join a club if you can rent the villas for the same price without any upfront costs?


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## Kagehitokiri (Aug 31, 2007)

1. DHH is cheap, and unlimited use @ $300 a night including yachts
2. worldwide private residences has no annual fee and seems to be planning on having great properties, including at Four Seasons resorts in Seychelles etc
3. lusso and ciel allow unlimited nights

those are the clubs im personally watching, to see how they grow their property portfolios.

- HCC is comparable/cheaper than DHH in terms of entry price, and also allows unlimited last minute reservations (apparently much more last minute than i thought) DHH is more appealing to me personally.

- portofino club also allows unlimited use, like lusso, for me lusso is more appealing. one thing about portofino's top membership is they actually say they rent the properties out. 

- solstice also allows unlimited use within a certain amount of days out, but again for me personally, if ciel's new membership level is about the same price, it would be more appealing.

see my price comparisons here >
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=361413&postcount=2
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=361506&postcount=10
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=361916&postcount=12
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=374943&postcount=17

steamboat bill's for HCC >
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=374878&postcount=16
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=384108&postcount=19

LTTravel's for HCC >
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=384000&postcount=11

im all about discounts and upgrades. thats why i have amex plat, plan to get cent when my spending is there, and will also probably join ABA and Andrew Harper's Q Club in the future.

destination clubs not only provide discounts, but unlimited use = nearly unlimited potential value.

suggesting that the value is never there is simply ridiculous, as has clearly been pointed out here many times. (my links above are simply the most recent)

finding the right fit for you = research. then you need to do your due dilligence before signing the actual contract.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=385007&postcount=19
while FMV might be about the same, i would have to imagine that home would rent for a lot more than HCC's new condo in PVR. since HCC doesnt have more (or any) homes like that, i dont see it as a good fit for me personally. i also misunderstood their unlimited last minute use. the way it works is also somewhat of a negative to me.

but it is cheap, and the values *are* there for a _number_ of their properties, especially in peak season, even though _some_ are IMHO inferior to equally priced / slightly more expensive comparables in the same destination.

its all about how you *use* of the club.


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## texdoc (Aug 31, 2007)

I'd rather pay hundreds of dollars less a night and make my own bed than pay extra just for maid service.  I guess it's what you want and what you are used to.


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## Kagehitokiri (Aug 31, 2007)

id rather pay more for luxurious single family homes (or condos in luxury hotels like four seasons and ritz carlton) than just condos.

http://www.heliumreport.com/ul/images/v1/destination-club-analytic.jpg

(i do own a TS but i did not buy it myself, and i would never spend any more money on TS)

its all about personal preferences. different people want/value different things, and there are ownership options for everyone.

from TS to fractional to whole ownership, or joining a DC.

there is no "right" or "wrong" choice/answer. even if you pay developer price for a TS, or dont use whatever you buy, thats not "wrong" its just a bad purchase/investment.

also, completely off topic, but in response to the earlier post about amex centurion.
http://www.geocities.jp/ctwxg845/centurioncard/chartermembercard.JPG
http://www.geocities.jp/ctwxg845/centurioncard2.html
thats what it looks like. also, platinum is not free unless you spend something like $1MM+ a year.


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## Steamboat Bill (Aug 31, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> Digging up this old post because I have the same question as the original poster.  I am interested in DC's and HCC in particular because of the lower prices and TUG recommendations.
> 
> My family is interested in visiting Italy next summer.  HCC has some nice properties in Tuscany at the Villa Petrischio.  The HCC website has a link to the Villa's website.  I checked the room rates and the most expenisve villa was only $310 Euros / night.
> 
> Why join a club if you can rent the villas for the same price without any upfront costs?



I don't agre that you can rent all the same units for the same price. In fact, I know it can't be done for most of their properties....Turks, Deer Valley, Breckenridge, NYC, etc.

Renting = most variety with most flexability, but ultimately will end up costing more in the long run. 

I joined HCC as I like their portfolio and prices. I found renting homes/condos online via VRBO and others a real headache with mixed results.


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## Kagehitokiri (Aug 31, 2007)

not to mention equity clubs are an investment, and not just money out the door.

although for me, i would basically write off the deposit of a club, and not worry about equity, because id plan on using it for life. a 100% refund on large deposits simply provides some reassurance that if you did have to resign (especially quickly, or before you could really make the most out of the membership) you wouldnt be out a fair amount of money, like with ER for example.

some recent discussion here
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53807


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## LTTravel (Aug 31, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> Digging up this old post because I have the same question as the original poster.  I am interested in DC's and HCC in particular because of the lower prices and TUG recommendations.
> 
> My family is interested in visiting Italy next summer.  HCC has some nice properties in Tuscany at the Villa Petrischio.  The HCC website has a link to the Villa's website.  I checked the room rates and the most expenisve villa was only $310 Euros / night.
> 
> Why join a club if you can rent the villas for the same price without any upfront costs?



310 x 1.36 = $421.16 (plus tax) per night for a "suite". Basically a room with a sitting area.  HCC has a two bedroom and a 1 bedroom unit. Both with a kitchen. I don't see any prices for a unit that size.


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## GOLFNBEACH (Aug 31, 2007)

The pictures on the website looks the same.  Maybe they are different.  Thanks for all the feedback.  Much appreciated.


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## Kagehitokiri (Aug 31, 2007)

euro at 1.36 now eh, dollar keeps sliding. another reason im glad i went last summer.

odd, cant find anything more on Villa Petrischio pricing either. the pictures sure do seem misleading. 

did find this >
http://www.travelworldnews.com/february2007/february.pdf 
page 12 has some cool info on activities

personally, for italy id probably look at 
http://www.homesaway.com/index.cfm 
villas get very large, from 600 euros/nt

its too bad there dont seem to be any castello di casole rentals.. only found an old ad from 2004 starting at 570 euros/nt


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## TarheelTraveler (Aug 31, 2007)

From my perspective with Crescendo, the main differences between a private villa rental and a DC are:

DC Pros

Every residence is of the highest quality, not a hit or miss affair.

Every residence is a fully stocked house with every imaginable amenity, kitchen utensils and appliances, and supplies.  I don't have to wonder what things will be there and what won't be there.  I've got a list that is standardized across the houses.  Although the games, movies and video games vary from residence to residence, I have a list ahead of time of those as well.

Every residence has an on site destination host to take care of reservations, questions about attractions, any maintenance issues and any other requests.

The cost per night is better when you compare apples to apples.  For example, in Punta Mita, comparable villas are at least $2,500 a night, which far exceeds the Crescendo nightly cost even if you have no appreciation.  I've checked the other locations and have found similar differences.

You save a tremendous amount of time when planning travel.  I pick a destination and I don't spend countless hours on the internet investigating where I'm going to stay and go.  I know that the house will be amazing.

You get more space and privacy to the extent desired.  With Crescendo, the beach properties have pools, but you can always use the resort/club facilities to the extent that you want to socialize.  We usually do both.

I can benefit from appreciation without having to worry about shouldering all of the costs and maintenance of the residence.

DC Cons

Obviously, if you're not in a destination club, you can pick any location and any house, which gives you more flexibility from a trip planning and cost standpoint.  However, as noted above, I would spend hours investigating various options.  Now in a few hours, I've planned 4 or 5 great vacations with a DC.

Along those lines, it would be nice if DCs got large enough to have various houses that use different levels of "points" for example, so that if you are going away for an anniversary weekend, for example, you can use the DC's 1BR condo or cottage without incurring as many points.


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## Kagehitokiri (Aug 31, 2007)

> Along those lines, it would be nice if DCs got large enough to have various houses that use different levels of "points" for example, so that if you are going away for an anniversary weekend, for example, you can use the DC's 1BR condo or cottage without incurring as many points.


OTOH its not like TS where the properties are different values. and you dont want to pay "premiums" for peak use.

http://www.crescendoresidences.com/casaluna.html heh, 2 pools just about makes up for not being beachfront


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## TarheelTraveler (Aug 31, 2007)

Not beachfront, only if you consider the golf fairway between the house and ocean.


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## pwrshift (Sep 1, 2007)

In my opinion, going to the HCC Tuscany property is a long ways from visiting Italy ... it's in the middle of nowhere, and it certainly doesn't look very 'exclusive' to me renting lower level apts to anyone online.  

Wouldn't you rather stay right in Florence on the Arno facing the Ponte Vecchio bridge rather than have to drive back and forth to some lesser than stellar country location?   And then have to come back again to visit the museums and sites and restaurants of Florence?  It kinda depends on whether you've been to Italy and have already seen all the sites (is that possible?) and just want to relax on some hill vista overlooking wine orchards - and in that case, perhaps Napa would do.

There are some DC's by the way that do have great Florence locations right in the middle of the everything, but not at the bargain basement level of an HCC membership.

http://www.exclusiveresorts.com/#Florence_Italy

Brian



GOLFNBEACH said:


> ...My family is interested in visiting Italy next summer. HCC has some nice properties in Tuscany at the Villa Petrischio. The HCC website has a link to the Villa's website. I checked the room rates and the most expenisve villa was only $310 Euros / night.
> 
> Why join a club if you can rent the villas for the same price without any upfront costs?


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## Kagehitokiri (Sep 1, 2007)

the experience of a HomesAway (for example) rental for in Tuscany would far exceed the experience of Napa. day trips into small rural towns, rather than major cities for tourist attractions, are more of what you would be doing.

im not sure how ER and others compare in terms of having local hosts.

its also easy to combine Fiesole/Florence onto the beginning of the trip.


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## LTTravel (Sep 1, 2007)

pwrshift said:


> In my opinion, going to the HCC Tuscany property is a long ways from visiting Italy ... it's in the middle of nowhere, and it certainly doesn't look very 'exclusive' to me renting lower level apts to anyone online.
> 
> Wouldn't you rather stay right in Florence on the Arno facing the Ponte Vecchio bridge rather than have to drive back and forth to some lesser than stellar country location?   And then have to come back again to visit the museums and sites and restaurants of Florence?  It kinda depends on whether you've been to Italy and have already seen all the sites (is that possible?) and just want to relax on some hill vista overlooking wine orchards - and in that case, perhaps Napa would do.
> 
> ...



Obviously not a fan of the movie, "Under the Tuscan Sky"  Definately a chick flick, but any chick who sees it says she want to go to Tuscany. One week in Tuscany is certainly not the complete Italy experience, only part of it. Also, the ER apartments in Florence are small, at the hefty ER pricetag. Plus no pool, and one week of a city vacation is too much for me, a few days is all I would need.  See the member testimonial on the Tuscany property at HCC
http://www.highcountryclub.com/destinations/memories/Tuscany.asp
They seemed to have enjoyed themselves.


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## Tedpilot (Sep 1, 2007)

It all comes to what you like and what kind of mood you're in to book your travel.  I have to agree that geography is everything in Europe...if you want to see the sites in a timely manner you need to be close to them.  On the other hand, for just kicking back, nothing beats Greece...Corfu is nice and the Alps in summer are great.


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 4, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> 310 x 1.36 = $421.16 (plus tax) per night for a "suite". Basically a room with a sitting area.  HCC has a two bedroom and a 1 bedroom unit. Both with a kitchen. I don't see any prices for a unit that size.



Tuscany - certainly looks like the same property / villa:

HCC Website:
http://www.highcountryclub.com/destinations/Tuscany_Merlino.asp

Villa Petrischio webiste:
http://www.villapetrischio.it/en/pandora.php


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## LTTravel (Sep 4, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> Tuscany - certainly looks like the same property / villa:
> 
> HCC Website:
> http://www.highcountryclub.com/destinations/Tuscany_Merlino.asp
> ...



That's the outside of the Borgo building. Villa Pet. website states that it is near the Borgo. The 2 bedroom at HCC is 1356 square feet and the 1 BR is 947. The Pandora Suite is a room with a private sitting room. No dining room or kitchen as the floorplans on HCC shows


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 4, 2007)

LTTravel, do you know if the HCC concierge (or most DC concierges) are available to help with all aspects of a holiday or just the aspects that deal with the villa/property?  

For example if we travel to Italy this summer we will want to spend time in Rome and Venice.  We will need help with recommendations on places to stay, suggested itineraries, travel logistics, etc.  This could be extremely helpful.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 4, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> LTTravel, do you know if the HCC concierge (or most DC concierges) are available to help with all aspects of a holiday or just the aspects that deal with the villa/property?
> 
> For example if we travel to Italy this summer we will want to spend time in Rome and Venice.  We will need help with recommendations on places to stay, suggested itineraries, travel logistics, etc.  This could be extremely helpful.



I think they would help, but they really focus on areas around each destination. In fact, most properties have little custom notebooks with reccomended activities and places in it.


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## LTTravel (Sep 4, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> LTTravel, do you know if the HCC concierge (or most DC concierges) are available to help with all aspects of a holiday or just the aspects that deal with the villa/property?
> 
> For example if we travel to Italy this summer we will want to spend time in Rome and Venice.  We will need help with recommendations on places to stay, suggested itineraries, travel logistics, etc.  This could be extremely helpful.



The concierges usually help you with all aspects of travel, but of course that varies by destination and by concierge. HCC has someone in Tuscany that will work with you to help you. He will provide one or two hours of help for free to arrange and suggest all the side trips  but then there is a fee for additional help.( I have no idea how much he can do in that time period) It really is not alot because for the more expensive DC's, you usually need to give them a significant tip at the end of the trip for such help. Also I noted you wanted help for Rome and Venice, which are quite a distance from Tuscany. Though they can help you with that, their expertise will probably be mostly for local things like wine tours, bike tours, restaurants in the area or trips to Florence, Pisa, Porotfino, Viareggio. But I'm sure they can help you with Venice and Rome, but those would not be day trips.


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## vineyarder (Sep 4, 2007)

> for the more expensive DC's, you usually need to give them a significant tip at the end of the trip for such help.



Interesting; PE has a strict 'no tipping' policy with the on-site concierges, which I greatly appreciate (rather than struggle with what an appropriate tip is...).   The on-site concierges/local hosts are rated by each guest, and recieve significant bonuses based on positive feedback, so they have a strong desire to please, but no tipping; best of both worlds!

Does HCC allow tipping for the local hosts / on-site concierges??


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## LTTravel (Sep 4, 2007)

vineyarder said:


> Interesting; PE has a strict 'no tipping' policy with the on-site concierges, which I greatly appreciate (rather than struggle with what an appropriate tip is...).   The on-site concierges/local hosts are rated by each guest, and recieve significant bonuses based on positive feedback, so they have a strong desire to please, but no tipping; best of both worlds!
> 
> Does HCC allow tipping for the local hosts / on-site concierges??



HCC concierges are not on-site usually. So I guess you don't tip. Tanner and Haley used to have a "no tipping" policy, so I guess that is where PE got that from(Rich Keith used to work with them). The others say that tipping is not necessary, but they give you a recommended tip for "exceptional service" but I would definately go for PE's method. Those daily fees cover some of that I am sure. But don't you have to tip the housekeepers?


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## NeilGoBlue (Sep 4, 2007)

I can only speak for Bellehavens Concierges.  They do not accept tips.  It's part of their contract.  They will help you unlimited time from 9am to 5pm.  Tho my experience is that they are available into the mid evening.  They will help with all aspects of your trips.  My understanding is that they are 'well paid' , but I dont know what that means..


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## GOLFNBEACH (Sep 4, 2007)

LTTravel said:


> He will provide one or two hours of help for free to arrange and suggest all the side trips  but then there is a fee for additional help.( I have no idea how much he can do in that time period)



One or 2 hours for HCC and unlimited for some of the other clubs.  I guess HCC has to cut some corners to get their fees as low as they are.


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## TarheelTraveler (Sep 4, 2007)

Unlimited help and unrestricted time availability for Crescendo.  Although as a practical matter, I wouldn't call the destination host in the middle of the night unless it was a house maintenance emergency.

No tipping required, although there are recommended total modest tips such as $40 or $50 for the whole trip if you want to recognize excellent service.


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## LTTravel (Sep 4, 2007)

TarheelTraveler said:


> No tipping required, although there are recommended total modest tips such as $40 or $50 for the whole trip if you want to recognize excellent service.



I love when they say this. This makes you look like a cheapskate if you don't leave them $50 even if they just make one or two restaurant reservations for you.


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## travelguy (Sep 5, 2007)

GOLFNBEACH said:


> One or 2 hours for HCC and unlimited for some of the other clubs.  I guess HCC has to cut some corners to get their fees as low as they are.



The charge is not for the HCC Concierge but for an third-party specialist in travel to Tuscany.  This is specific to the HCC Tuscany property and I'm not aware of any other HCC properties that have a similar setup and/or charge.  The HCC concierge will make any and all arrangements for all their locations, including Tuscany, at absolutely no charge.  They are available at all times pre/peri/post trip.  HCC properties also have an on-site property management team that provide any service needed.  I have used them several times during my trips and had immediate and exceptional response.

The only corner that HCC is cutting here may be the "meet-and-great" from an on-site concierge, which I personally dislike anyway.


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## LTTravel (Sep 5, 2007)

travelguy said:


> The only corner that HCC is cutting here may be the "meet-and-great" from an on-site concierge, which I personally dislike anyway.



Also,  they always seem to find you just as you are leaving.


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