# [2017] Just Joined Marriott Vacation Club - Was it a good choice?



## GoldenVIKE

My wife and I (33, 36 yo) with 2 kids (1, 2 yo) just joined MVCI (4,000 points level) mostly to realize financial benefits over time (including in retirement in the distant future), but also for some of the intangible benefits the club offers like access to bigger villas, broader experiences, etc.

Part of our decision to buy was based on financial analysis.  I'd like to lay this out to you experienced TS users and see if we're missing anything, or if any of the assumptions I'm making may not be accurate.  We're within our 10-day review period so we could still back out...

*Booking Value of a Point*
First, practically all calculations hinge on how much annual "value" we're going to get out of the points on an annual basis in terms of booking vacations.  I understand that this can vary greatly, but based on 50 internet comparisons of how much it'd cost to book various MVC villas through the internet, vs. how much they cost to book with DC points, it looks like assuming about $1.50 per point per year is a reasonable target.  (For example, using 4,000 points should be the rough equivalent of spending $6,000 on the open market, and 6000/4000=$1.50)  The _average_ was actually $1.21 across the 50 searches but valued-minded owners can skew that upward.  Still, I ran numbers at $1.50 and $1.20 just to get a range.

*Owner Up-Front Acquisition Costs*
Second, the way ownership is acquired is a big factor too.  In doing a little research on the internet we decided to buy through Marriott rather than go resale because (a) it seems a hell of a lot easier and our time is valuable, and (b) the ultimate cost per point that you pay (after Marriott's incentives w/ direct and after junk fees with resale) is about the same.  To buy resale looks like you'll be a little over $7 per point after you pass ROFR w/ a $5+ bid, and after you pay the transfer, education, closing, and other junk fees.  Our all-in cost per point was $7.56 after incentives.  Those included (a) 20% discount off of the $13.32 starting price (b) $999 reimbursement of our presentation trip (c) $1750 bonus due to adding an extra day onto our presentation trip (subtract $400) - you have to ask special for this (d) 4,000 bonus points for signing up at presentation - valued at $6,000 (e) 4,000 more bonus points for financing 70% of the purchase, which are net valued at $3,566 considering interest fees and tax deduction in the 18 months required to carry the loan for the bonus (f) $1,660 value of putting all up-front costs on Marriott Rewards card for 5x points, and (g) $1,180 closing costs.  In summary depending on exactly how much you get resale points for, (using $4.50 to $5.00 range before junk fees) and assuming an annual booking value of $1.20 to $1.50 per point, the potential savings for going resale is around 2-15% (see below).  Not worth the headache to us.  Note that the math would be different at different levels of ownership.

Point:     @$4.50     @$5.00
$1.20:    -15.18%    -9.02%
$1.30:    -13.15%    -6.85%
$1.40:    -11.02%    -4.56%
$1.50:    -8.78%      -2.16%

*Calculating the Value of MVC Ownership*
There are several ways to calculate return on a potential investment and I looked at just about all of them...

Perpetual Bond: 7.7% to 12.2% return on investment
Taking the future marginal value of the booking value of a point, over the maintenance and ownership fees yeilds $0.62 (@ $1.20) to $0.92 (@ $1.50) in net value per point per year.  In the $1.50 per point example, that's $1.50 - $0.53 annual maintenance fee - $0.05 annual dues ($185 / 4,000 points) per point.  Simply dividing the annual "return" on a point into the initial "investment" in that point is a simple calculation of interest as if it were a perpetual bond.

Internal 30-year Rate of Return: 6.1% to 11.5% return on investment
This method looks at all future cash flows and then finds the interest rate that would make the net present value $0.  The range of results for our particular situation is 6.1% (at $1.20/point) to 10.4% (at $1.50/point).  Add about a point to that if you successfully acquired a resale allotment of points at a discount vs. buying from Marriott direct.  Note that this method doesn't contemplate some big things, including (a) the inflation hedge benefit of MVC ownership, (b) any residual value at 30 years, meaning that if the ownership still has value or can be re-sold for any amount at the end of the 30 year period, that's just a bonus.

Breakeven exit period: 3-7 years
The amount of time it'd take to be able to realize a break-even proposition when netting out (a) upfront costs (b) future savings and (c) cash-out in this case assuming the ability to sell at $4 per point in the resale market.  Buying direct from Marriott range is 4-7 years, with 3 years possible if you get a good resale deal and realize $1.50 annual booking value per point.

Payback period: 8-12 years
Similar to the above, but assuming you're not going to sell and exit, it'd take a little longer to reach the point at which the total amount you've paid is equal to the total market value of the travel that you've booked through MVCI.  Shave a year off both ends if you score a great deal on a resale.  It's interesting to note that this goes to 20 years if the booking value per point drops to $1.00.

Cumulative Net Value: possibly over $100,000
In taking the cumulative net values of all incoming and outgoing cash, and not discounting or adjusting for inflation due to an assumption that while the cost of maintenance will go up over time, so will the cost of travel in general (they net each other out), here's the estimated net value at various milestones (looking at buying direct from Marriott only, as the additional value gained from scoring a good resale stake is minimal)

Time         @$1.20    @1.50
1 year       -$9,044    -$3,124
5 years      -$4,034    $4,246
10 years    $8,441      $22,721
20 years    $33,391    $59,671
30 years    $58,341    $96,621
.... and it'd keep going up from here

Cumulative Relative Discount: 20-40% cheaper travel for long-term MCVI owners
Using the same math as the payback period, this compares the total you've spent vs. the market value of all of your travel at various points in time, to calculate the cumulative effective discount (or premium) you've had on your travel due to being a MVCI owner.  Here are some examples at various milestones...

Time         @$1.20    @1.50
5 years      +49.7%   +26.1% (the + means you're paying more in the early years)
10 years    +10.3%    - 9.0%
20 years    - 16.9%    - 32.4%
30 years    - 27.6%    - 41.4%
.... and the discount would keep going in the same direction

Financial Summary
The stuff above made this a pretty easy decision for us, or at least easily justifiable from a financial perspective.  Of course it all falls apart of the average booking value of a point goes down though.  For example, if it falls to $1.00 then the payback period becomes 20 years and the IRR falls to 2.7%-3.9%; so it's really important that we continue to be able to book trips for fewer DC points than it'd cost $USD to book outside of the MVCI structure.  This is why I'm very interested to hear your actual experience and perceived booking value of a DC point.

*Intangible Benefits*
And of course there are many cherries on top.  I've been a frequent Marriott traveler w/ lifetime gold status, and enjoy and trust the brand.  The ability to get early access to booking very desirable 2 and 3-br villas is going to be great for our family. As is the fact that being part of MVCI makes it easier and less awkward to invite friends and family to just come along, since everything is paid for already anyway (close enough).  Not to mention other perks and experiences through Interval International, Homes, Cruises, MVP discounted bookings, etc.  Plus just having something that psychologically feels like we're building wealth, having fun, and being part of a club; and ultimately can pass this down to our kids -- all of that stuff is truly icing on the cake to use a second dessert analogy in the same paragraph.

Anyway, if you've made it this far through this rambling post--uhh--thank you?!  Sorry?!  I'd love to hear feedback though to help us confirm whether we've made a good choice or not.  How do you all feel about being MVCI members?  Any regrets?  Feeling the value?  Thanks!

PS: Kudos to our TS Sales Rep w/ MVCI Allen Larkin.  He was very transparent, forthcoming, and helpful.  I'd recommend him to anyone that wants to learn more about MVCI.


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## sb2313

Maybe I missed it, but how much was the actual cost per point before you adjusted for incentives? Did you buy 4K points or did you buy a hybrid package as that does help to reduce price per point?


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## Saintsfanfl

I don't think there is anything in your analysis that I would agree with but I applaud your enthusiasm. Using terms like "investment", "rate of return", and "building wealth" makes you sound like a timeshare salesperson. All of that stuff is nonesense. Buying and using DC points can be a convenience but you aren't generating wealth by any means. The Marriott salesperson isn't doing you a favor.

I think a resale points purchase recently passed at $3.50 a point. It continues to drop the longer they sell points. It will eventually go down to no ROFR on a full time basis. Like all timeshares there will come a time when DC points will have little to no value due to the extremely high maintenance fees.

There are very few situations where it isn't cheaper to buy a resale week but nothing can match the flexibility and convenience of using points. It's just at what cost?


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## GoldenVIKE

sb2313 said:


> Maybe I missed it, but how much was the actual cost per point before you adjusted for incentives? Did you buy 4K points or did you buy a hybrid package as that does help to reduce price per point?



Hi Steve, I mentioned the 20% discount but didn't explicitly lay out each step.  Anyway the list price of a point is $13.32 minus 20% discount equals $10.66.  Then start chopping off the other things from there to eventually get down to $7.56.


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## GoldenVIKE

Saintsfanfl said:


> I don't think there is anything in your analysis that I would agree with but I applaud your enthusiasm. Using terms like "investment", "rate of return", and "building wealth" makes you sound like a timeshare salesperson. All of that stuff is nonesense. Buying and using DC points can be a convenience but you aren't generating wealth by any means. The Marriott salesperson isn't doing you a favor.
> 
> I think a resale points purchase recently passed at $3.50 a point. It continues to drop the longer they sell points. It will eventually go down to no ROFR on a full time basis. Like all timeshares there will come a time when DC points will have little to no value due to the extremely high maintenance fees.
> 
> There are very few situations where it isn't cheaper to buy a resale week but nothing can match the flexibility and convenience of using points. It's just at what cost?



Thanks but do you have anything objective to base this on?  The math above is just math.  None of that came from MCVI people.  "Wealth" in this case means a perpetual right to discounted travel.  I'd agree that maintenance fees will likely continue to rise as will the cost of travel in general.  If they rise at the same rate, then the net effect is moot, right?  The cost of bluejeans and soda will increase too...


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## Saintsfanfl

GoldenVIKE said:


> Thanks but do you have anything objective to base this on?  The math above is just math.  None of that came from MCVI people.  "Wealth" in this case means a perpetual right to discounted travel.  I'd agree that maintenance fees will likely continue to rise as will the cost of travel in general.  If they rise at the same rate, then the net effect is moot, right?  The cost of bluejeans and soda will increase too...



If you have experience with timeshares you will know that timeshare maintenance fees definitely increase faster than any other things. Marriott is no exception.

Discounted travel? It depends on your definition of "discounted". I own many Marriott weeks and stay at Marriott properties quite often. I don't think I have ever paid close to what it would cost in annual fees if I had booked using DC points. Maybe close to even on some really low demand weeks. And that's assuming zero up front costs. For me personally, regular DC points would have little value but I can see the value in convenience and flexibility. For me booking with DC points would come with a "convenience" premium rather than a discount.

I don't want to completely knock the idea because if you have the money then it's not horrible. There are alternative cheaper options out there but admittedly they do require more work than simply booking with points. For me points are just way too expensive.


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## Saintsfanfl

If you do some comparisons you will actually find cases where booking with DC points can be more expensive than simply booking on Marriott.com that doesn't require prepayment and can be canceled 3 days prior. Or it can be cheaper to rent from an owner with no ongoing liability. So it all depends on how you plan to use the points and whether it makes sense for your specific purpose. There are definitely units out there that would be nearly impossible to get without points.


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## frank808

Or just buying the minimum amount of points and having the extra points transferred to you at a little more than maintenance fees?  How long would it take you to break even then compared with your purchase price?  

I have a feeling marriott will restrict the transfer of points one day or start charging to transfer points.  This might put a downer on being able to rent 20 years from now.  The only guarantee of timesharing is that it is continually changing.

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk


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## vacationtime1

If I were to analyze this as an "investment", then I would also consider:

1.  The opportunity cost on the "invested" capital.  OP's investment is somewhere between $30,000 and $43,000 (depending on the true value of the purchase incentives).  Applying a 10% rate of return (probably low, given the illiquid, contingent nature of the asset) means that every vacation, every year, costs $3,000 - $4,300 more that the MF's paid.  The MF's on a 4000 point package are about $2,200 alone, meaning the annual vacation has a true economic cost of $5,200 and $6,500.  Note that this 4000 point package is insufficient to reserve the larger and/or most desirable units in the Marriott system.

2.  Those points are not going to be worth $10.66 or even $7.56 when you or your heirs sell them.  Few timeshares retain more than 10% of their value on the secondary (read: real) market after a few years; there is no reason to believe these points will be different.  Points are not real estate and come with annual costs that are completely beyond your control.  As those annual costs increase, the economic benefit of ownership is increasingly squeezed.

Value of points (per the poll above)?  For me, the benchmark is a one bedroom ocean front unit at the original portion of the Maui Ocean Club during low season.  4125 points.  I can rent that unit for about $2,500. So about $0.60/point.


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## Pompey Family

I scrolled through your post, past the sums as for us we didn't consider our purchases as investments, and read the last paragraph. Simply put, we enjoy the benefits of having well appointed villas with at least two bedrooms in very nice resorts. To book a holiday with similar amenities the traditional way would cost significantly more than our annual maintenance fees (excluding the initial purchase price however I consider the prices paid on our resale weeks have already been recouped by the potential savings we've made). With two young children having the separate rooms, kitchen, lounge etc is so much better than being crammed into a hotel room and that is one of the biggest benefits that you're going to find. Obviously as our children grow up then our priorities will change but we'll address that at the time.


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## GoldenVIKE

vacationtime1 said:


> If I were to analyze this as an "investment", then I would also consider:
> 
> 1.  The opportunity cost on the "invested" capital.  OP's investment is somewhere between $30,000 and $43,000 (depending on the true value of the purchase incentives).  Applying a 10% rate of return (probably low, given the illiquid, contingent nature of the asset) means that every vacation, every year, costs $3,000 - $4,300 more that the MF's paid.  The MF's on a 4000 point package are about $2,200 alone, meaning the annual vacation has a true economic cost of $5,200 and $6,500.  Note that this 4000 point package is insufficient to reserve the larger and/or most desirable units in the Marriott system.
> 
> 2.  Those points are not going to be worth $10.66 or even $7.56 when you or your heirs sell them.  Few timeshares retain more than 10% of their value on the secondary (read: real) market after a few years; there is no reason to believe these points will be different.  Points are not real estate and come with annual costs that are completely beyond your control.  As those annual costs increase, the economic benefit of ownership is increasingly squeezed.
> 
> Value of points (per the poll above)?  For me, the benchmark is a one bedroom ocean front unit at the original portion of the Maui Ocean Club during low season.  4125 points.  I can rent that unit for about $2,500. So about $0.60/point.



This is very helpful, thanks!  Your post brings up a few questions: 

1. When you say that you can rent this for $2,500 are you talking about just booking it online?  Or renting someone's timeshare?  I assume the latter because when I look at booking Maui Ocean Club from Dec 3-10 for the room you note, it's $5,390 after taxes and fees (5390/4125 = $1.31/point)
2. When using DC points I assume there are no additional taxes and fees, correct?

I should have mentioned that we're pretty busy and don't want to spend a lot of time "playing a game" to find deals that involve exchanging points with other owners, etc.  We just want to go online and book trips.  So in that context for me, when I say the value of a point, my comparison would be something that can be booked by anyone on the internet directly on marriott.com or orbitz.com or something; not what the minimum cost a TS-savvy sleuth can uncover.  With that in mind, when I ran the 50 comparisons, I agree that there are some examples that come in around $0.65/point or so (e.g. Vegas Grand Chateau), but also many examples that come in higher ranges (e.g. Aruba Ocean Club in March 1-bd Oceanview that costs 2,975 points but online would be $5,424 after taxes = $1.82/point).  Again the average of these 50 searches was $1.21 and the average of the top half of the values was $1.50.


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## GoldenVIKE

frank808 said:


> Or just buying the minimum amount of points and having the extra points transferred to you at a little more than maintenance fees?  How long would it take you to break even then compared with your purchase price?
> 
> I have a feeling marriott will restrict the transfer of points one day or start charging to transfer points.  This might put a downer on being able to rent 20 years from now.  The only guarantee of timesharing is that it is continually changing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk



Good question.  Is it really easy to "borrow" others' points at slightly more than maintenance fees?  We're not interested in spending a lot of time concocting ways to save a little more money, so if it's time consuming and complex count us out.  (Home Away is too time consuming and annoying for us, dealing with owners, sending physical checks in the mail, etc)  Also if you did this (e.g. buy into MVCI at 1,500 points or something, then rent others' points off of them) you'd be constrained with your booking windows right?  Part of the benefit for us in going in at 4,000 points was getting a 13 month booking window; although now i'm questioning whether we shouldn't have done 7,000 level to get better access to Luxury properties and sub-7-day stays.... :-/


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## GoldenVIKE

Saintsfanfl said:


> If you have experience with timeshares you will know that timeshare maintenance fees definitely increase faster than any other things. Marriott is no exception.
> 
> Discounted travel? It depends on your definition of "discounted". I own many Marriott weeks and stay at Marriott properties quite often. I don't think I have ever paid close to what it would cost in annual fees if I had booked using DC points. Maybe close to even on some really low demand weeks. And that's assuming zero up front costs. For me personally, regular DC points would have little value but I can see the value in convenience and flexibility. For me booking with DC points would come with a "convenience" premium rather than a discount.
> 
> I don't want to completely knock the idea because if you have the money then it's not horrible. There are alternative cheaper options out there but admittedly they do require more work than simply booking with points. For me points are just way too expensive.



Yeah I think we're on the same page.  I understand that there are cheaper ways to take vacations than MVCI.  But we also highly value ease of booking and a modest degree of flexibility so are OK with the notion of a convenience premium.  We're never going to be people that are scouring internet exchanges coming up with the cheapest ways to get trips.  As long as MVCI gets the the ability to have nicer (bigger) rooms for less $ over time than we'd have just booking trips off of Marriott.com, we'll consider that winning


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## sb2313

GoldenVIKE said:


> Hi Steve, I mentioned the 20% discount but didn't explicitly lay out each step.  Anyway the list price of a point is $13.32 minus 20% discount equals $10.66.  Then start chopping off the other things from there to eventually get down to $7.56.


My suggestion, if you choose to keep the purchase, would be to look at at a hybrid week/points purchase. Many have been able to get an initial buy in price of around $7 per point, before discounts and deductions, by purchasing as such. Just my free advice, worth exactly what you paid for it! Good luck and enjoy your vacation time, whatever decisions you need up making.


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## capjak

sb2313 said:


> My suggestion, if you choose to keep the purchase, would be to look at at a hybrid week/points purchase. Many have been able to get an initial buy in price of around $7 per point, before discounts and deductions, by purchasing as such. Just my free advice, worth exactly what you paid for it! Good luck and enjoy your vacation time, whatever decisions you need up making.


+1  If you are buying direct I would rescind the 4,000 point package and call to investigate a "Hybrid" purchase, which is basically buying from marriott a week at a resort that can use or trade for points along with a points purchase (so for 4,000 points total you would purchase a marriott week that represented 2,000 points and then purchase 2,000 trust points).  Total Cost per point withOUT incentives $7.50. Using your math for incentives it would be less....


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## bogey21

Some 30 years ago we started out with your Marriott enthusiasm buying Weeks at Sabal, Heritage, Harbour and Monarch.  We soon became disillusioned with the hassle of scheduling vacations, increasing MFs and Marriott changing the rules.  Back then you could sell and pretty much get your money back.  We sold Sabal, Heritage and Harbour and kept Monarch for a whole lot longer as it was a Fixed Week/Fixed Unit.

It is my opinion in today's world that in most cases renting is a better alternative.  You have no outlay of dollars upfront; you will not be exposed to Marriott changing their rules; you have reduced hassle in scheduling; and you are not locked into Marriott but can rent Weeks in other systems.


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## Saintsfanfl

capjak said:


> +1  If you are buying direct I would rescind the 4,000 point package and call to investigate a "Hybrid" purchase, which is basically buying from marriott a week at a resort that can use or trade for points along with a points purchase (so for 4,000 points total you would purchase a marriott week that represented 2,000 points and then purchase 2,000 trust points).  Total Cost per point withOUT incentives $7.50. Using your math for incentives it would be less....



+2 but do the math on what week is being bundled. You want a good ratio of annual fee to points but the salesperson could choose a poor week. They do this because it lowers the up front cost and makes it look more attractive on the surface. Over time it shakes out to a worse deal. Choose your own week that has a good ratio.


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## bazzap

GoldenVIKE said:


> Yeah I think we're on the same page.  I understand that there are cheaper ways to take vacations than MVCI.  But we also highly value ease of booking and a modest degree of flexibility so are OK with the notion of a convenience premium.  We're never going to be people that are scouring internet exchanges coming up with the cheapest ways to get trips.  As long as MVCI gets the the ability to have nicer (bigger) rooms for less $ over time than we'd have just booking trips off of Marriott.com, we'll consider that winning


You have mentioned several times that you're pretty busy and don't want to spend a lot of time "playing a game"
Even putting aside any financial aspects, you should be aware that to get the best out of MVC just to secure the reservations you want you do need to spend a reasonable amount of time understanding how the system works, planning and being ready to make your booking at the exact date and time of the earliest inventory release.
Those who do tend to be pleased with MVC, many of those who don't often tend to be rather disillusioned.


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## Fasttr

GoldenVIKE said:


> (e) 4,000 more bonus points for financing 70% of the purchase, which are net valued at $3,566 considering interest fees and tax deduction in the 18 months required to carry the loan for the bonus


I would like to dig into your math on this one a bit.  Not a fan of financing via MVC just to get more bonus points.  A few thoughts that may be worth your pondering.....

1.  Do you have the ability to pay cash for this purchase, or at the very least finance it using better terms than MVC offers?
2.  Do you really need the additional 4000 points offered for financing via MVC for 18 months?
3.  If the answer to #1 and #2 are yes, just want to make sure you realize you could easily rent those additional points on VPE (www.vacationpointexchange.com) for somewhere in the $2,000 to $2,220 range.  So in reality, paying their financing rate is likely costing you real dollars as opposed to the way you are thinking about it as an additional discounted "value" helping to get your cost per point down.
4.  If #1 is yes, and #2 is no....then it clearly makes no sense to finance via MVC.
5.  If #1 is no, then I think you need to rethink your overall math regarding if this purchase really makes sense.


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## KenA

Unfortunately, you are working very hard to justify the purchase of points (as I once did).  I also purchased retail initially.  After finding TUG, I rescinded and ended up buying 2500 points at a later time on the resale market for less than $4.50 per point.  (This was also before Marriott increased the fees to help curb these re-sales.)  I often "rent" points using VPE to take trips as 2500 is not enough for our travel needs.

In addition, it can take quite of bit of time and planning to be able to book trip using points.  It depends on the location, but it can be time consuming and challenging to book at certain destinations using points.  You may need to be very flexible with places you would like to travel and/or be able to book well in advance for highly sought after locations.

Marriott has lots of destination/properties in the program, which I believe, dilutes the highly desirable properties.  In other words, there are a lot of points owners seeking the same locations.  (Try finding any South Carolina property in the summer to book with points).    

Overall, I like the points but it does take work and patience to get what you want.  The cost of buying retail points could not be justified for us.  I will admit it can be easy to get swept up in the presentation.  The reality of using points is nowhere near what is portrayed by the Marriott sales people.


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## GreenTea

If you want the membership for ease of vacation, then you really do not want the ownership.  Vacation life was MUCH easier when I could say, I want to go to Hawaii in July....I'd look around, book what I wanted and go.  Now, if I want to use MVC to go to Hawaii it involves an insanely nerve wracking brigade callers on my behalf, as well as online, to try to be the one that gets through at the exact right moment to get the reservation.  If you are not at the appointed minute, 12 months out, you are not going where you plan. (always exceptions, but as a general rule, you have go to know every trick in the book)

You will definitely pay less buying resale.  You will definitely pay less buying the minimum, of 1500 points and renting the rest you need.  Do you have the cash on hand to pay pay it off either now or at the 18 month mark that you mention?  The interest rate is really high.....calculate renting the 4000 points at .50 a point vs what you'll pay in interest for the 18 months.  You can not pay it off with the Marriott visa at the 18 month mark.  Cash only.

I don't regret buying my initial 1500 points directly, but I didn't consider it any wealth building opportunity either.  Resale weeks are cheap on the secondary market and you can trade week for week via Interval International.  Just another option to consider.


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## Ty1on

I would humbly suggest that instead of posting a thread asking if it is a good choice and then proceeding in the OP to broadcast that it was a good choice, you open your mind and suspend your analytical conclusions and look objectively at what some very experienced people are telling you here.  Many of them started their paths in your EXACT position.


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## JIMinNC

GoldenVIKE said:


> This is very helpful, thanks!  Your post brings up a few questions:
> 
> 1. When you say that you can rent this for $2,500 are you talking about just booking it online?  Or renting someone's timeshare?  I assume the latter because when I look at booking Maui Ocean Club from Dec 3-10 for the room you note, it's $5,390 after taxes and fees (5390/4125 = $1.31/point)
> 2. When using DC points I assume there are no additional taxes and fees, correct?
> 
> I should have mentioned that we're pretty busy and don't want to spend a lot of time "playing a game" to find deals that involve exchanging points with other owners, etc.  We just want to go online and book trips.  So in that context for me, when I say the value of a point, my comparison would be something that can be booked by anyone on the internet directly on marriott.com or orbitz.com or something; not what the minimum cost a TS-savvy sleuth can uncover.  With that in mind, when I ran the 50 comparisons, I agree that there are some examples that come in around $0.65/point or so (e.g. Vegas Grand Chateau), but also many examples that come in higher ranges (e.g. Aruba Ocean Club in March 1-bd Oceanview that costs 2,975 points but online would be $5,424 after taxes = $1.82/point).  Again the average of these 50 searches was $1.21 and the average of the top half of the values was $1.50.



I tend to think of things much in the same way that you do. When evaluating the financials of points ownership, we never compare against booking on Home Away, Redweek, VRBO, AirBNB, etc. Too many hassles and risks dealing with other owners, as you allude to. I always compare ownership against the actual ways we would book if we didn't own - hotel online sites, Orbitz, Expedia, etc. or in some cases dealing with a Realtor who has a condo rental operation on behalf of owners. (There we are renting someone's condo, but are dealing with the Realtor, NOT the owner themselves.)

By contrast, many (most?) TUGgers are much more comfortable investing the time, energy, and risk of renting from an owner in order to save some money. So if you are looking for the best possible deal, comparing against a $2500 Redweek rental makes more sense than comparing against a $5,000 booking on Marriott.com. Also, many on TUG are legacy weeks owners who are not totally sold on buying MVC Trust points to get the flexibility and value of the Points system. These points *are *more expensive than legacy resale weeks, but as you have figured out, Points come with advantages as well. I think you should pay attention to what everyone is saying, keep an open mind, and consider whether any of their very informed points apply to you - but always keep in mind that TUGgers are a group that is much more willing to play the timeshare "game" than it sounds like you are.

I do agree with Fasttr in post #19 that if you are financing the purchase because you can't afford to pay cash, then I would reconsider since MVC financing terms aren't usually great and I'm not a big fan of using debt for a discretionary luxury purchase. But if, on the other hand, you could pay cash and are just using the financing (and absorbing the financing costs) as a way to get the bonus points, then maybe financing is OK based on your numbers. Some have suggested looking at a Hybrid Bundle as the best way to get a better price point on Points ownership, and that is usually the case (that's what we did in 2014), but most of those wind up costing in the same $7-$8/point range where you are already at price-wise, so I'm not sure if it would be worth the "rescind and replace" strategy.

Many TUGgers recommend buying the minimum number of points (1,500) and then renting what you need each year on www.vacationpointexchange.com (VPE), since those points can be "rented" (actually its a points transfer in MVC terminology) for about the same cost as what you would pay in maintenance fees on owned points. That way, you totally eliminate the up-front cost. That is a good alternate strategy since, while VPE rentals are another consumer-to-consumer transaction just like renting on Redweek or VRBO, the transaction is usually totally electronic with payment via PayPal, and once the owner has transferred the points to you, that owner is totally out of the picture and the points are yours to do with as you wish (unlike a condo rental from an owner where the owner is essentially acting as your landlord until your check-in/out). Rented (transferred) points, however, cannot be banked, borrowed, or transferred again, so they are stuck in the use year you acquire them in. As a result, you have to plan your points needs carefully, and a trip cancellation could leave you with points that can't be easily used. For that reason, I think points rentals are a better strategy for occasional years when you need more points than usual, rather than as a permanent alternative to owning points. There are however a number of TUGgers who use point rentals as their primary points strategy.

So I do think that you are approaching this decision to purchase in a methodical and financially consistent way - and have done a good job making an informed decision. Some may disagree with looking at the finances this way, but the way we looked at our purchase in 2014 was very similar to the approach you have taken to validate the economics.

In your post you mention the use of Points for cruises, tours, hotels, etc. I will caution you that your 4000 points won't go very far in the Explorer Collection. You may have to combine two or three years worth of points to book some of those items, and may find that booking direct for cash is just as cost effective. In most cases, MVC has to acquire that inventory from other companies, so it is not as cost effective as using points at an MVC location.

Another caution I will offer is to not assume that booking a Marriott timeshare is as easy as going on Marriott.com or orbitz.com and booking something. Timeshare tends to book much, much farther in advance than the hotel sites do. If you are wanting prime time in Maui, summer in Hilton Head, winter in Florida or the Caribbean, etc. you need to be prepared to be online and/or on the phone right at 9am on the 13-month or 12-month inventory release day. Even then, you may or may not be able to get exactly what you want. Timeshare inventory is limited, so people tend to move fast. So while there is still something of a "game" to any timeshare booking, I absolutely agree the MVC Points system is the closest thing I've found in the timeshare world to just going online and booking a hotel room or condo. It's much easier and less stressful than the old timeshare "weeks-based" trading game through II and RCI. Just don't expect it to be totally without "gamesmanship" or you may become disappointed. So far, we've always been able to get exactly what we want using the Points system, but others can report less successful experiences.


----------



## JIMinNC

GreenTea said:


> If you want the membership for ease of vacation, then you really do not want the ownership.  Vacation life was MUCH easier when I could say, I want to go to Hawaii in July....I'd look around, book what I wanted and go.  Now, if I want to use MVC to go to Hawaii it involves an insanely nerve wracking brigade callers on my behalf, as well as online, to try to be the one that gets through at the exact right moment to get the reservation.  If you are not at the appointed minute, 12 months out, you are not going where you plan. (always exceptions, but as a general rule, you have go to know every trick in the book)



Your Hawaii booking experience is the exact opposite of mine. We booked a 2BR Ocean Front at Maui Ocean Club for summer 2016 using points with ease. Booked online at the 12 month release time. In the months leading up to that booking, I shopped the system extensively from January through June and found Hawaii availability to be superb in most unit sizes/views at 12 months out, with many, many check-in dates still being available at 11 or even 10 months. Caribbean availability in the prime Jan-Mar window was more spotty than Hawaii, but with some date/view flexibility would still have been doable.

Unfortunately, we later had to cancel the Hawaii trip, but that's when points really worked well. Instead of having to deposit a canceled booking into II or going through some other hassle, the points were just returned to our account, and with the points freed up by the Hawaii cancellation, my wife and a friend spent four nights in Las Vegas in May 2016, my wife and daughter spent three nights at The Mayflower in D.C. in July, and we have a trip to Hilton Head scheduled for April 2017 in a 2BR OF during the Heritage PGA tournament.


----------



## catharsis

sb2313 said:


> My suggestion, if you choose to keep the purchase, would be to look at at a hybrid week/points purchase. Many have been able to get an initial buy in price of around $7 per point, before discounts and deductions, by purchasing as such. Just my free advice, worth exactly what you paid for it! Good luck and enjoy your vacation time, whatever decisions you need up making.


A guest staying at mountainside last week at the same time as us purchased approx 11000 points for about 75k before incentives.   We chatted briefly about it and I think the particular hybrid package is about as good as it gets in terms of upfront cost, maintenance fees and access to the higher levels of the program.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## BocaBoy

JIMinNC said:


> Your Hawaii booking experience is the exact opposite of mine. We booked a 2BR Ocean Front at Maui Ocean Club for summer 2016 using points with ease. Booked online at the 12 month release time. In the months leading up to that booking, I shopped the system extensively from January through June and found Hawaii availability to be superb in most unit sizes/views at 12 months out, with many, many check-in dates still being available at 11 or even 10 months.


I agree with this EXCEPT for the MOC Lahaina/Napili towers, which are much harder to reserve and where booking at the 12-month mark is much more necessary.


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## BocaBoy

GoldenVIKE said:


> Is it really easy to "borrow" others' points at slightly more than maintenance fees?  We're not interested in spending a lot of time concocting ways to save a little more money, so if it's time consuming and complex count us out.


Yes, it is really quick and easy to rent DC points on VPE.  You can usually complete a deal and have the points in your account with a few hours max, and if the seller is available by E-mail when you contact him/her, it can take as little as 15-20 minutes until you have the points in your account.  Payments are normally made by PayPal.  I once listed something like 17,500 points for rent and a deal was completed 20 minutes after the points were listed for the entire block of points.  You should also be aware that most sellers will rent you the points you need and not require you to rent more than you need.


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## JIMinNC

BocaBoy said:


> I agree with this EXCEPT for the MOC Lahaina/Napili towers, which are much harder to reserve and where booking at the 12-month mark is much more necessary.



Yep. I failed to mention I was talking about the original MOC towers, NOT Lahaina/Napili. There was availability in Lahaina/Napili when I was shopping the system, but it was definitely considerably more limited than the original towers. There was some availability, but some flexibility in date/unit would have been required.


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## GoldenVIKE

Fasttr said:


> I would like to dig into your math on this one a bit.  Not a fan of financing via MVC just to get more bonus points.  A few thoughts that may be worth your pondering.....
> 
> 1.  Do you have the ability to pay cash for this purchase, or at the very least finance it using better terms than MVC offers?
> 2.  Do you really need the additional 4000 points offered for financing via MVC for 18 months?
> 3.  If the answer to #1 and #2 are yes, just want to make sure you realize you could easily rent those additional points on VPE (www.vacationpointexchange.com) for somewhere in the $2,000 to $2,220 range.  So in reality, paying their financing rate is likely costing you real dollars as opposed to the way you are thinking about it as an additional discounted "value" helping to get your cost per point down.
> 4.  If #1 is yes, and #2 is no....then it clearly makes no sense to finance via MVC.
> 5.  If #1 is no, then I think you need to rethink your overall math regarding if this purchase really makes sense.



These are astute questions and observations, thanks!  1 is a "sort of" and 2 is a "ehh".  Financing for 6-18 months does help a bit as we are holding two homes right now after doing a relo; so the fact that it "helps" in the short run and has an incentive attached to it is the reason I decided to do it.  I have every intention of paying it off after 18 months.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

BocaBoy said:


> Yes, it is really quick and easy to rent DC points on VPE.  You can usually complete a deal and have the points in your account with a few hours max, and if the seller is available by E-mail when you contact him/her, it can take as little as 15-20 minutes until you have the points in your account.  Payments are normally made by PayPal.  I once listed something like 17,500 points for rent and a deal was completed 20 minutes after the points were listed for the entire block of points.  You should also be aware that most sellers will rent you the points you need and not require you to rent more than you need.



This is a great tip. I'm comfortable using eBay and PayPal, and this sounds like a similar process.  It's on my list to explore this!


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## davidvel

GoldenVIKE said:


> Thanks but do you have anything objective to base this on?  The math above is just math.  None of that came from MCVI people.


People question this because all of us have heard nearly identical, if not verbatim, the same arguments made in presentations. Right down to the phraseology.

That aside, let's look at the math, and some problems: The 4000 one-time points are worth what they would cost to rent (about 4000*.55=$2,200), not $6000. You can’t reverse engineer the cost setting it at $1.50. It is not supported. You lost on the financing, as 400 pts =$2,200-2434=-234. (I don’t know what the tax deduction refers to.) I don’t know how you calculated MR points value, but am sure it is high. But will still give you full credit in your math.) So back to the math:
4000* $10.66/pt =$42,640.
- $1,966 (arguable value of DC points, less loss financing)
- $2,840 (benefit of the doubt for whatever (f) and (g) are)
=$37,834/4000=$9.46/pt

Now let’s use your 10year example:
$37,834 + 21,850 (10*MF+dues of 2,185)= $59,684.
So you pay $5,968.40 each year over 10 years for 4,000 pts.

So, what will you reserve each year for your 4000 points? Will it be worth more than $6,000? Nope.


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## GoldenVIKE

JIMinNC said:


> I tend to think of things much in the same way that you do. When evaluating the financials of points ownership, we never compare against booking on Home Away, Redweek, VRBO, AirBNB, etc. Too many hassles and risks dealing with other owners, as you allude to. I always compare ownership against the actual ways we would book if we didn't own - hotel online sites, Orbitz, Expedia, etc. or in some cases dealing with a Realtor who has a condo rental operation on behalf of owners. (There we are renting someone's condo, but are dealing with the Realtor, NOT the owner themselves.)
> 
> By contrast, many (most?) TUGgers are much more comfortable investing the time, energy, and risk of renting from an owner in order to save some money. So if you are looking for the best possible deal, comparing against a $2500 Redweek rental makes more sense than comparing against a $5,000 booking on Marriott.com. Also, many on TUG are legacy weeks owners who are not totally sold on buying MVC Trust points to get the flexibility and value of the Points system. These points *are *more expensive than legacy resale weeks, but as you have figured out, Points come with advantages as well. I think you should pay attention to what everyone is saying, keep an open mind, and consider whether any of their very informed points apply to you - but always keep in mind that TUGgers are a group that is much more willing to play the timeshare "game" than it sounds like you are.
> 
> I do agree with Fasttr in post #19 that if you are financing the purchase because you can't afford to pay cash, then I would reconsider since MVC financing terms aren't usually great and I'm not a big fan of using debt for a discretionary luxury purchase. But if, on the other hand, you could pay cash and are just using the financing (and absorbing the financing costs) as a way to get the bonus points, then maybe financing is OK based on your numbers. Some have suggested looking at a Hybrid Bundle as the best way to get a better price point on Points ownership, and that is usually the case (that's what we did in 2014), but most of those wind up costing in the same $7-$8/point range where you are already at price-wise, so I'm not sure if it would be worth the "rescind and replace" strategy.
> 
> Many TUGgers recommend buying the minimum number of points (1,500) and then renting what you need each year on www.vacationpointexchange.com (VPE), since those points can be "rented" (actually its a points transfer in MVC terminology) for about the same cost as what you would pay in maintenance fees on owned points. That way, you totally eliminate the up-front cost. That is a good alternate strategy since, while VPE rentals are another consumer-to-consumer transaction just like renting on Redweek or VRBO, the transaction is usually totally electronic with payment via PayPal, and once the owner has transferred the points to you, that owner is totally out of the picture and the points are yours to do with as you wish (unlike a condo rental from an owner where the owner is essentially acting as your landlord until your check-in/out). Rented (transferred) points, however, cannot be banked, borrowed, or transferred again, so they are stuck in the use year you acquire them in. As a result, you have to plan your points needs carefully, and a trip cancellation could leave you with points that can't be easily used. For that reason, I think points rentals are a better strategy for occasional years when you need more points than usual, rather than as a permanent alternative to owning points. There are however a number of TUGgers who use point rentals as their primary points strategy.
> 
> So I do think that you are approaching this decision to purchase in a methodical and financially consistent way - and have done a good job making an informed decision. Some may disagree with looking at the finances this way, but the way we looked at our purchase in 2014 was very similar to the approach you have taken to validate the economics.
> 
> In your post you mention the use of Points for cruises, tours, hotels, etc. I will caution you that your 4000 points won't go very far in the Explorer Collection. You may have to combine two or three years worth of points to book some of those items, and may find that booking direct for cash is just as cost effective. In most cases, MVC has to acquire that inventory from other companies, so it is not as cost effective as using points at an MVC location.
> 
> Another caution I will offer is to not assume that booking a Marriott timeshare is as easy as going on Marriott.com or orbitz.com and booking something. Timeshare tends to book much, much farther in advance than the hotel sites do. If you are wanting prime time in Maui, summer in Hilton Head, winter in Florida or the Caribbean, etc. you need to be prepared to be online and/or on the phone right at 9am on the 13-month or 12-month inventory release day. Even then, you may or may not be able to get exactly what you want. Timeshare inventory is limited, so people tend to move fast. So while there is still something of a "game" to any timeshare booking, I absolutely agree the MVC Points system is the closest thing I've found in the timeshare world to just going online and booking a hotel room or condo. It's much easier and less stressful than the old timeshare "weeks-based" trading game through II and RCI. Just don't expect it to be totally without "gamesmanship" or you may become disappointed. So far, we've always been able to get exactly what we want using the Points system, but others can report less successful experiences.



Wow, this is enormously helpful.  Thank you so much for taking the time to share some of your wisdom on this.  And to everyone that's posted, I think I'm coming to some conclusions here:

1. There are cheaper ways to travel, and more cost-effective ways to manage a timeshare stake, but it looks like you really have to know what you're doing.  Most of the posters on this site appear to be experts at this.  I'm am a novice, but we'll explore some of those methods over time and who knows maybe in the future we'll change our vacationing strategies.  For now, MVC is how we'll dip our toes in the water; and it sounds like most agree that this is at least a better and more cost-effective way to manage travel than booking on marriott.com or orbitz.com.  I'm content with the financial aspect of this, even if more savvy TS owners can achieve better "returns" through a more refined strategy.
2. We're going to stay with our 4,000 pt destination club because while the financial aspect of all of this is important, we also are doing this for ease, and while MVC appears to be among the "easiest" TS methods in general, the 4,000 pt ("Select") level comes also with some perks like the ability to book 13 months out.  We'll almost certainly end up with more in the future, and when the time comes to expand our vacation portfolio, we may consider resale through a reputable broker (vs. direct), buying legacy weeks, or some of the other methods mentioned on here. 
3. It's good to know that renting points or weeks from others can be a good and easy way to augment our travel budget.  We'll definitely be doing that.  The 7,000 pt level allows for more ability to book Luxury (Ritz-Carlton & FRBO-type luxury homes) properties and shorter stays at the 13-mo window, so that may be where we settle long run; but it looks like once we find the right combination of perks, expanding "ownership" beyond that level may be unnecessary.  That's great to know!


----------



## GoldenVIKE

Ty1on said:


> I would humbly suggest that instead of posting a thread asking if it is a good choice and then proceeding in the OP to broadcast that it was a good choice, you open your mind and suspend your analytical conclusions and look objectively at what some very experienced people are telling you here.  Many of them started their paths in your EXACT position.



Mmm kay.  I shared my thought process, shared various assumptions and variables associated with it, and asked for feedback on it.  I was looking for some specific feedback, not general feedback about whether people like MVCI.  Not sure how I could have presented this better, but sorry if you were put off by my posting.


----------



## dioxide45

GoldenVIKE said:


> Mmm kay.  I shared my thought process, shared various assumptions and variables associated with it, and asked for feedback on it.  I was looking for some specific feedback, not general feedback about whether people like MVCI.  Not sure how I could have presented this better, but sorry if you were put off by my posting.


Welcome to TUG! We are really a friendly bunch around here. I don't think anyone has negative intentions. I saw this thread last night but opted to not weigh in as there are far more people experienced in the points game than I. I was going to point out that I hope you have some thick skin. This thread has actually gone fairly well with some good points made and only one possible reference to your post sounding like a timeshare salesman. If this was 8 years ago, you would have been accused multiple times of being a timeshare salesman in here to shill and piss us all off. There are several regulars here that have been accused of such, even the moderator.

I do somewhat agree with Ty1on. Your thread title did start out asking if it was a good choice and then you did go on to expunge how it was a good choice. So his/her point is valid. Though, keep a thick skin, you need it around here sometimes. The written work doesn't always come across as one intended it. Just keep at this and you will find that we really are a friendly bunch just wanting to help people in this wonderful world of timeshare.

I am always of the mind set that if someone comes to TUG still within their rescission period that they are always best to rescind their purchase. You have can always go back later and buy the same thing, however, once outside that rescission period you are stuck. You also have something that is financially worth only about a quarter of what you paid for it. However, you seem to have some here with a lot more knowledge and analysis under your belt. You seem happy with what you purchased, if you can justify it to yourself and it makes sense to your family, then go for it. Your happiness is what is most important to you and your family, not what a bunch of friendly strangers think


----------



## JIMinNC

davidvel said:


> People question this because all of us have heard nearly identical, if not verbatim, the same arguments made in presentations. Right down to the phraseology.
> 
> That aside, let's look at the math, and some problems: The 4000 one-time points are worth what they would cost to rent (about 4000*.55=$2,200), not $6000. You can’t reverse engineer the cost setting it at $1.50. It is not supported. You lost on the financing, as 400 pts =$2,200-2434=-234. (I don’t know what the tax deduction refers to.) I don’t know how you calculated MR points value, but am sure it is high. But will still give you full credit in your math.) So back to the math:
> 4000* $10.66/pt =$42,640.
> - $1,966 (arguable value of DC points, less loss financing)
> - $2,840 (benefit of the doubt for whatever (f) and (g) are)
> =$37,834/4000=$9.46/pt
> 
> Now let’s use your 10year example:
> $37,834 + 21,850 (10*MF+dues of 2,185)= $59,684.
> So you pay $5,968.40 each year over 10 years for 4,000 pts.
> 
> So, what will you reserve each year for your 4000 points? Will it be worth more than $6,000? Nope.



Why spread the upfront over only 10 years? The OP is 30-something, so it's not unreasonable to assume a 30-40 year time horizon. Granted, lifestyles change and the OP may not actually own MVCI for 30+ years, so using that long of a holding period is probably just as wrong on the long side as I think using 10 years is way too short. I would suggest something more like 20 years as a middle ground. So, using your numbers: 

$37,834 + $43,700 (20*MF+dues of $2,185)= $81,534.
So you pay $4,077 each year over 20 years for 4,000 points.

I couldn't quite follow your numbers vs the OP's numbers in total, but it looked like your numbers may not account for some of the benefits he did - such as the value of the vacation package he was traveling on, which was refunded with the purchase. If so, your numbers may overstate his "net cost"/per point cost somewhat. But using your numbers, the OP would need about $4000 worth of vacations each year out of 4,000 points. For comparison, 4000 points gets you a 2BR OF in Hilton Head in what is basically Gold season (spring/fall) or a 1BR OV at Maui Ocean Club during the second tier points seasons at MOC. Booking either on marriott.com would cost around $4100 to $4500, so about breakeven or a little better at 20 years. If the OP owns his points for 25 or 30 years, the numbers clearly favor the Points vs. Renting.

Obviously, your numbers don't factor in maintenance fee increases which we all know will average 3% - 5% a year. But generally hotel rates rise at similar rates based on industry data over the long term. This relationship between hotel rates and maintenance fees was debated ad-naseum in another thread recently. While the factors that drive maintenance fees increases are somewhat different the those that drive hotel rates (hotel rates are impacted by supply & demand whereas maintenance fees are not), the fact that they rise at similar rates means ignoring inflation in this analysis is probably OK.


----------



## davidvel

JIMinNC said:


> Why spread the upfront over only 10 years? The OP is 30-something, so it's not unreasonable to assume a 30-40 year time horizon. Granted, lifestyles change and the OP may not actually own MVCI for 30+ years, so using that long of a holding period is probably just as wrong on the long side as I think using 10 years is way too short. I would suggest something more like 20 years as a middle ground. So, using your numbers:
> 
> $37,834 + $43,700 (20*MF+dues of $2,185)= $81,534.
> So you pay $4,077 each year over 20 years for 4,000 points.
> 
> I couldn't quite follow your numbers vs the OP's numbers in total, but it looked like your numbers may not account for some of the benefits he did - such as the value of the vacation package he was traveling on, which was refunded with the purchase. If so, your numbers may overstate his "net cost"/per point cost somewhat. But using your numbers, the OP would need about $4000 worth of vacations each year out of 4,000 points. For comparison, 4000 points gets you a 2BR OF in Hilton Head in what is basically Gold season (spring/fall) or a 1BR OV at Maui Ocean Club during the second tier points seasons at MOC. Booking either on marriott.com would cost around $4100 to $4500, so about breakeven or a little better at 20 years. If the OP owns his points for 25 or 30 years, the numbers clearly favor the Points vs. Renting.
> 
> Obviously, your numbers don't factor in maintenance fee increases which we all know will average 3% - 5% a year. But generally hotel rates rise at similar rates based on industry data over the long term. This relationship between hotel rates and maintenance fees was debated ad-naseum in another thread recently. While the factors that drive maintenance fees increases are somewhat different the those that drive hotel rates (hotel rates are impacted by supply & demand whereas maintenance fees are not), the fact that they rise at similar rates means ignoring inflation in this analysis is probably OK.


I agree, we can't include every variable. In fact I think it gets worse if we do. Reducing his upfront by a few thousand wouldn't really change the annual nut over 10-20 years. Of course, we also omit the value of that money over 10-20 years, which would be there if renting direct.

I frankly don't believe that the OP is a novice, as he describes himself. But I've been wrong, and time will tell. To have your first post titled "Was it a good choice?" and the detailed analysis that really doesn't hit the true cost but uses the time-tested "investment," "prepaid vacations" language raises questions. And then to really not get any responses saying "this is a great deal keep it", but then instantly deciding that he'll keep the deal....I'm still skeptical. 

And of course, the comparison is to renting direct vs. buying points, with no examples of real-life usage plans. A potential 20-25 year break even cannot be sold as a good "investment" strategy, IMHO.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

davidvel said:


> I agree, we can't include every variable. In fact I think it gets worse if we do. Reducing his upfront by a few thousand wouldn't really change the annual nut over 10-20 years. Of course, we also omit the value of that money over 10-20 years, which would be there if renting direct.
> 
> I frankly don't believe that the OP is a novice, as he describes himself. But I've been wrong, and time will tell. To have your first post titled "Was it a good choice?" and the detailed analysis that really doesn't hit the true cost but uses the time-tested "investment," "prepaid vacations" language raises questions. And then to really not get any responses saying "this is a great deal keep it", but then instantly deciding that he'll keep the deal....I'm still skeptical.
> 
> And of course, the comparison is to renting direct vs. buying points, with no examples of real-life usage plans. A potential 20-25 year break even cannot be sold as a good "investment" strategy, IMHO.



...terms like payback period, return on investment, etc are common terms used by anyone familiar with finance.

I think that the debate has evolved a bit, but in a good way that's educational to at least me certainly.

My initial questions were really just:
1. does owning a TS via MVCI make financial sense vs. owning no TS at all (or vs. some other option that's as easy for a novice to TS and MVCI)?
2. does my math make sense in terms of helping to answer this?
3. should i go resale or direct through MVCI?

Many of the posters have approached the debate from a different angle, and basically answered a different question:
4. could you do better financially through more complex nuanced strategies than by owning through MVCI?

And now my conclusions based on the great education you've all provided are (to the same questions above):
1. yes (there seems to be no debate about this, right?)
2. mostly (with some nuances including the next point #3, but no major faults in logic that would render MVCI a terrible overall decision vs. not owning TS at all)
3. i'm actually starting to lean toward resale now that you've taught me that DC points can easily be rented for around $.55/yr - that does change my math and the way i was valuing those 'throw in' points.  Based on this it looks like resale is more like 23-30% cheaper than direct assuming acquisition cost of $4.50 to $5.00.  This is in contrast to the 2-15% that I had originally calculated.
4. Unequivocally yes.  I'm guessing that every single poster on this thread has found ways to maximize the financial aspect, and probably by a huge margin.  But, it seems that the tradeoff is that it takes a lot of time, effort, knowledge, and a tolerance for snafu that at the moment my wife and I don't have.  

So for now, we're definitely going with MVCI points system, as this seems like a nice compromise between full-fledged TS participation vs. just booking trips online.  We may cancel the contract and go resale.  And we may over time acquire the knowledge and appetite for the game that you all seem to be playing very well.  If we do that we'd likely augment ownership in MVCI (due to the benefits of ownership such as 13-mo access and more control) with some of the tricks you're all so keen to.  Thanks again everyone!


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## MOXJO7282

GoldenVIKE said:


> My wife and I (33, 36 yo) with 2 kids (1, 2 yo) just joined MVCI (4,000 points level) mostly to realize financial benefits over time (including in retirement in the distant future), but also for some of the intangible benefits the club offers like access to bigger villas, broader experiences, etc.
> 
> Part of our decision to buy was based on financial analysis.  I'd like to lay this out to you experienced TS users and see if we're missing anything, or if any of the assumptions I'm making may not be accurate.  We're within our 10-day review period so we could still back out...
> 
> *Booking Value of a Point*
> First, practically all calculations hinge on how much annual "value" we're going to get out of the points on an annual basis in terms of booking vacations.  I understand that this can vary greatly, but based on 50 internet comparisons of how much it'd cost to book various MVC villas through the internet, vs. how much they cost to book with DC points, it looks like assuming about $1.50 per point per year is a reasonable target.  (For example, using 4,000 points should be the rough equivalent of spending $6,000 on the open market, and 6000/4000=$1.50)  The _average_ was actually $1.21 across the 50 searches but valued-minded owners can skew that upward.  Still, I ran numbers at $1.50 and $1.20 just to get a range.
> 
> *Owner Up-Front Acquisition Costs*
> Second, the way ownership is acquired is a big factor too.  In doing a little research on the internet we decided to buy through Marriott rather than go resale because (a) it seems a hell of a lot easier and our time is valuable, and (b) the ultimate cost per point that you pay (after Marriott's incentives w/ direct and after junk fees with resale) is about the same.  To buy resale looks like you'll be a little over $7 per point after you pass ROFR w/ a $5+ bid, and after you pay the transfer, education, closing, and other junk fees.  Our all-in cost per point was $7.56 after incentives.  Those included (a) 20% discount off of the $13.32 starting price (b) $999 reimbursement of our presentation trip (c) $1750 bonus due to adding an extra day onto our presentation trip (subtract $400) - you have to ask special for this (d) 4,000 bonus points for signing up at presentation - valued at $6,000 (e) 4,000 more bonus points for financing 70% of the purchase, which are net valued at $3,566 considering interest fees and tax deduction in the 18 months required to carry the loan for the bonus (f) $1,660 value of putting all up-front costs on Marriott Rewards card for 5x points, and (g) $1,180 closing costs.  In summary depending on exactly how much you get resale points for, (using $4.50 to $5.00 range before junk fees) and assuming an annual booking value of $1.20 to $1.50 per point, the potential savings for going resale is around 2-15% (see below).  Not worth the headache to us.  Note that the math would be different at different levels of ownership.
> 
> Point:     @$4.50     @$5.00
> $1.20:    -15.18%    -9.02%
> $1.30:    -13.15%    -6.85%
> $1.40:    -11.02%    -4.56%
> $1.50:    -8.78%      -2.16%
> 
> *Calculating the Value of MVC Ownership*
> There are several ways to calculate return on a potential investment and I looked at just about all of them...
> 
> Perpetual Bond: 7.7% to 12.2% return on investment
> Taking the future marginal value of the booking value of a point, over the maintenance and ownership fees yeilds $0.62 (@ $1.20) to $0.92 (@ $1.50) in net value per point per year.  In the $1.50 per point example, that's $1.50 - $0.53 annual maintenance fee - $0.05 annual dues ($185 / 4,000 points) per point.  Simply dividing the annual "return" on a point into the initial "investment" in that point is a simple calculation of interest as if it were a perpetual bond.
> 
> Internal 30-year Rate of Return: 6.1% to 11.5% return on investment
> This method looks at all future cash flows and then finds the interest rate that would make the net present value $0.  The range of results for our particular situation is 6.1% (at $1.20/point) to 10.4% (at $1.50/point).  Add about a point to that if you successfully acquired a resale allotment of points at a discount vs. buying from Marriott direct.  Note that this method doesn't contemplate some big things, including (a) the inflation hedge benefit of MVC ownership, (b) any residual value at 30 years, meaning that if the ownership still has value or can be re-sold for any amount at the end of the 30 year period, that's just a bonus.
> 
> Breakeven exit period: 3-7 years
> The amount of time it'd take to be able to realize a break-even proposition when netting out (a) upfront costs (b) future savings and (c) cash-out in this case assuming the ability to sell at $4 per point in the resale market.  Buying direct from Marriott range is 4-7 years, with 3 years possible if you get a good resale deal and realize $1.50 annual booking value per point.
> 
> Payback period: 8-12 years
> Similar to the above, but assuming you're not going to sell and exit, it'd take a little longer to reach the point at which the total amount you've paid is equal to the total market value of the travel that you've booked through MVCI.  Shave a year off both ends if you score a great deal on a resale.  It's interesting to note that this goes to 20 years if the booking value per point drops to $1.00.
> 
> Cumulative Net Value: possibly over $100,000
> In taking the cumulative net values of all incoming and outgoing cash, and not discounting or adjusting for inflation due to an assumption that while the cost of maintenance will go up over time, so will the cost of travel in general (they net each other out), here's the estimated net value at various milestones (looking at buying direct from Marriott only, as the additional value gained from scoring a good resale stake is minimal)
> 
> Time         @$1.20    @1.50
> 1 year       -$9,044    -$3,124
> 5 years      -$4,034    $4,246
> 10 years    $8,441      $22,721
> 20 years    $33,391    $59,671
> 30 years    $58,341    $96,621
> .... and it'd keep going up from here
> 
> Cumulative Relative Discount: 20-40% cheaper travel for long-term MCVI owners
> Using the same math as the payback period, this compares the total you've spent vs. the market value of all of your travel at various points in time, to calculate the cumulative effective discount (or premium) you've had on your travel due to being a MVCI owner.  Here are some examples at various milestones...
> 
> Time         @$1.20    @1.50
> 5 years      +49.7%   +26.1% (the + means you're paying more in the early years)
> 10 years    +10.3%    - 9.0%
> 20 years    - 16.9%    - 32.4%
> 30 years    - 27.6%    - 41.4%
> .... and the discount would keep going in the same direction
> 
> Financial Summary
> The stuff above made this a pretty easy decision for us, or at least easily justifiable from a financial perspective.  Of course it all falls apart of the average booking value of a point goes down though.  For example, if it falls to $1.00 then the payback period becomes 20 years and the IRR falls to 2.7%-3.9%; so it's really important that we continue to be able to book trips for fewer DC points than it'd cost $USD to book outside of the MVCI structure.  This is why I'm very interested to hear your actual experience and perceived booking value of a DC point.
> 
> *Intangible Benefits*
> And of course there are many cherries on top.  I've been a frequent Marriott traveler w/ lifetime gold status, and enjoy and trust the brand.  The ability to get early access to booking very desirable 2 and 3-br villas is going to be great for our family. As is the fact that being part of MVCI makes it easier and less awkward to invite friends and family to just come along, since everything is paid for already anyway (close enough).  Not to mention other perks and experiences through Interval International, Homes, Cruises, MVP discounted bookings, etc.  Plus just having something that psychologically feels like we're building wealth, having fun, and being part of a club; and ultimately can pass this down to our kids -- all of that stuff is truly icing on the cake to use a second dessert analogy in the same paragraph.
> 
> Anyway, if you've made it this far through this rambling post--uhh--thank you?!  Sorry?!  I'd love to hear feedback though to help us confirm whether we've made a good choice or not.  How do you all feel about being MVCI members?  Any regrets?  Feeling the value?  Thanks!
> 
> PS: Kudos to our TS Sales Rep w/ MVCI Allen Larkin.  He was very transparent, forthcoming, and helpful.  I'd recommend him to anyone that wants to learn more about MVCI.






GoldenVIKE said:


> ...terms like payback period, return on investment, etc are common terms used by anyone familiar with finance.
> 
> I think that the debate has evolved a bit, but in a good way that's educational to at least me certainly.
> 
> My initial questions were really just:
> 1. does owning a TS via MVCI make financial sense vs. owning no TS at all (or vs. some other option that's as easy for a novice to TS and MVCI)?
> 2. does my math make sense in terms of helping to answer this?
> 3. should i go resale or direct through MVCI?
> 
> Many of the posters have approached the debate from a different angle, and basically answered a different question:
> 4. could you do better financially through more complex nuanced strategies than by owning through MVCI?
> 
> And now my conclusions based on the great education you've all provided are (to the same questions above):
> 1. yes (there seems to be no debate about this, right?)
> 2. mostly (with some nuances including the next point #3, but no major faults in logic that would render MVCI a terrible overall decision vs. not owning TS at all)
> 3. i'm actually starting to lean toward resale now that you've taught me that DC points can easily be rented for around $.55/yr - that does change my math and the way i was valuing those 'throw in' points.  Based on this it looks like resale is more like 23-30% cheaper than direct assuming acquisition cost of $4.50 to $5.00.  This is in contrast to the 2-15% that I had originally calculated.
> 4. Unequivocally yes.  I'm guessing that every single poster on this thread has found ways to maximize the financial aspect, and probably by a huge margin.  But, it seems that the tradeoff is that it takes a lot of time, effort, knowledge, and a tolerance for snafu that at the moment my wife and I don't have.
> 
> So for now, we're definitely going with MVCI points system, as this seems like a nice compromise between full-fledged TS participation vs. just booking trips online.  We may cancel the contract and go resale.  And we may over time acquire the knowledge and appetite for the game that you all seem to be playing very well.  If we do that we'd likely augment ownership in MVCI (due to the benefits of ownership such as 13-mo access and more control) with some of the tricks you're all so keen to.  Thanks again everyone!



Please don't take this the wrong way because I'm not trying to be rude but I find it amusing that you can do all this in-depth analysis that you obviously spent hours on but you're afraid that booking resale weeks vacations will be too challenging.  That is the first fallacy you have to get past. Once you become an expert like we are on TUG you can maximize any of the systems without too much effort so for me it's what resale system works best for what you want, but rest assured either one is not the time consuming effort you make it out to be so spending extra money to avoid this extra work is not a valid reason.

*I have one question for you* that to me makes the difference between going with resale points or resale weeks because to me resale weeks are much easier to deal with and can bring much more value with less initial investment.

*Do you want to take vacations for less than 7 days?   *If the answer is yes then I'd say the points system is the way to go, however if you always see your family taking 7 day vacations then I'd say to seriously explore the resale weeks program.

And with all the number crunching you did here's the only way to create a TS investment, buy multiple Marriott prime location 2BDRM units and rent them for profit, reserving one for use by your family.

You were going to spend $30-40k? Here's an example.

Buy 4 Newport Coast plat resale weeks for approx $32k (4 x $8k). Annual MF is approx $5200 (4 x $1300 MFs).  Rent 3 units very easily on Redweek for minimum $2200 ( I received $2400 each for my 2017 rentals) each for income of $6600. That gives you an annual ROI of $1400 per year and a free week to use.

You can do this with a number of prime Marriotts very easily.  I've been doing so with a few dozen Marriotts for 14 plus years.  And I'll emphasize it doesn't take a ton of effort with Marriotts popularity and Redweek's customer base. You just need the initial capital to get started and the plan I just outlined.

Good luck in your final decision but I would strongly suggest you rescind, because any deal you got will still be there at any time, and expand the great knowledge that your getting now by continuing to read TUG and ask questions because most everyone here has gone through what you're going through and would love to help you save a ton of money.


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## GoldenVIKE

I see the irony - spreadsheets are easy for me and i had a lot of free time on the plane & Admirals Clubs over the past couple of days.  This is very good advice and I'm seriously considering our options based on everyones' feedback.  Thank you!


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## Saintsfanfl

davidvel said:


> *I frankly don't believe that the OP is a novice*, as he describes himself. But I've been wrong, and time will tell. To have your first post titled "Was it a good choice?" and the detailed analysis that really doesn't hit the true cost but uses the time-tested "investment," "prepaid vacations" language raises questions. And then to really not get any responses saying "this is a great deal keep it", but then instantly deciding that he'll keep the deal....*I'm still skeptical*.



That's what I thought after the initial post but not anymore. I'm fairly certain the OP is using their real name and is in a profession that routinely requires a high level of detailed analysis. Their post makes perfect sense for who they are.


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## Fasttr

If you are seriously considering resale points, take a look at post #266 in this thread where GregT just passed ROFR on a batch of 2000 points at $2.25 per point, putting his all in costs after the junk fees at approx. $4.25 per point.
http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/rofr-metric-ongoing-rofr-activity.226718/


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## larryallen

I am not a mathematician so I got lost early in the first thread but feel confident renting is cheaper in the long run. Redweek almost always has the week I want at the resort I want and often for cheaper than the annual dues.  Having said that there is an appeal to the points and I do appreciate that. However, there is absolutely nothing, from a monetary standpoint, that is economical about buying points from Marriott. The dues get more expensive and are due EVERY year no matter what.  Hopefully you will find value in your purchase. Use the heck out of them and maybe you will.


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## Quilter

I've passed on reading this thread until today.   It was getting so much attention I just had to see what was going on.

Well, if you ask me . . .

First, why should we try to talk this guy out of his purchase.   We need these novice people to buy and keep MVC solvent.  

But that is probably talking to the wind, so my further thoughts on this are . . .

OP says he's doesn't want to invest a lot of time thinking about this but looking at the way his brain calculates every angle he will be investing lots of time with every booking.  I suspect he'll analyze if they should check-in on Saturday or Sunday in order to save points and if they really want that Friday.   He will get into the MR points and invest time working that system.   You can't own in the system and get the best value without working the system and working the system is a definite investment of time.

OP is young and so is his family.   The expectations on travel will evolve as the family grows.   I don't believe he can actually know and plan how he'll use the system in 3 years much less 10.

IMO the easiest, simplest way to work the MVC system is to find a seasoned owner you develop a trusting relationship with, who is at the Chairman level, who rents their weeks and points and have them book inventory 13 or more months out.   There are many here on TUG.


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## taffy19

I agree with Quilter because this industry is changing too fast and not in the timeshare owner's favor, IMHO.



Quilter said:


> I've passed on reading this thread until today.   It was getting so much attention I just had to see what was going on.
> 
> Well, if you ask me . . .
> 
> First, why should we try to talk this guy out of his purchase.   We need these novice people to buy and keep MVC solvent.
> 
> But that is probably talking to the wind, so my further thoughts on this are . . .
> 
> *OP says he's doesn't want to invest a lot of time thinking about this but looking at the way his brain calculates every angle he will be investing lots of time with every booking.  I suspect he'll analyze if they should check-in on Saturday or Sunday in order to save points and if they really want that Friday.   He will get into the MR points and invest time working that system.   You can't own in the system and get the best value without working the system and working the system is a definite investment of time.*
> 
> OP is young and so is his family.   The expectations on travel will evolve as the family grows.   I don't believe he can actually know and plan how he'll use the system in 3 years much less 10.
> 
> *IMO the easiest, simplest way to work the MVC system is to find a seasoned owner you develop a trusting relationship with, who is at the Chairman level, who rents their weeks and points and have them book inventory 13 or more months out.   There are many here on TUG*.


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## JIMinNC

MOXJO7282 said:


> *I have one question for you* that to me makes the difference between going with resale points or resale weeks because to me resale weeks are much easier to deal with and can bring much more value with less initial investment.
> 
> *Do you want to take vacations for less than 7 days?   *If the answer is yes then I'd say the points system is the way to go, however if you always see your family taking 7 day vacations then I'd say to seriously explore the resale weeks program.



While weeks ownership is a better solution for many people, based on what the OP has said about their inclinations and preferences, I think weeks ownership would prove to be an exercise in frustration for them (as it has always been for us). Even if they don't want to travel in shorter increments, the Points program avoids the frustration and waiting to get an II trade. Yes, you can capture some good trips with weeks exchanges, but I just have a feeling from his posts that the OP prefers to go online and book what he wants rather than going through the process of putting in an ongoing search with Interval International and then waiting for potentially months for a trade to match. Weeks trading can be exceedingly frustrating for someone who likes to just book the trips they want.

Having said that, as TUGgers know, you can get some great values with weeks-based trading - we traded a lowly Silver HHI Barony Beach Club Gardenview week to get a September 2017 week at HHI Grande Ocean (Gold season). We placed the request in early April 2016 and gave II a wide possible travel window from mid-Sept through the end of October 2017, but we didn't get a match (a mid-September week) until late November right after Thanksgiving. Having said that, booking the same reservation at Grande Ocean with points would have required 3450-4000 points (depending on view category), so that equates to a maintenance fee cost of roughly $1,825 to $2,100. Our maintenance fee cost on the 2017 Barony week was only $1,351 (and that was inflated by the $75 Hurricane Matthew special assessment). So it was a good financial deal to trade this time instead of using Points, and we may play the weeks trading game from time-to-time, but I am very glad we own both an enrolled week and Points, so we have the option to use either system. I can't imagine being forced to revert back to weeks based trading for EVERY trip we want to take. That's why we sold a non-Marriott week we used to own that traded in RCI, and bought into the Marriott system in 2014. I detest the waiting and uncertainty of trading. While Points come with no assurances either, it's much closer to "what you see is what you get."

Now obviously, if the OP has a specific destination they want to go to every year, or almost every year, then owning a week-based interval at that resort makes 100% better sense than buying Points. But if they want to travel to lots of places, I would be concerned that leading them towards weeks trading would result in their ultimate frustration with timeshare ownership.



MOXJO7282 said:


> And with all the number crunching you did here's the only way to create a TS investment, buy multiple Marriott prime location 2BDRM units and rent them for profit, reserving one for use by your family.
> 
> You were going to spend $30-40k? Here's an example.
> 
> Buy 4 Newport Coast plat resale weeks for approx $32k (4 x $8k). Annual MF is approx $5200 (4 x $1300 MFs).  Rent 3 units very easily on Redweek for minimum $2200 ( I received $2400 each for my 2017 rentals) each for income of $6600. That gives you an annual ROI of $1400 per year and a free week to use.
> 
> You can do this with a number of prime Marriotts very easily.  I've been doing so with a few dozen Marriotts for 14 plus years.  And I'll emphasize it doesn't take a ton of effort with Marriotts popularity and Redweek's customer base. You just need the initial capital to get started and the plan I just outlined.
> 
> Good luck in your final decision but I would strongly suggest you rescind, because any deal you got will still be there at any time, and expand the great knowledge that your getting now by continuing to read TUG and ask questions because most everyone here has gone through what you're going through and would love to help you save a ton of money.



As far as the rental approach is concerned, I guess I don't have the patience for that either, and based on the OP's comments, I wonder if they would have the same concern. I'm also not enamored with the person-to-person rental market, either acting as a renter or as a landlord. My one experience with trying to rent something on Redweek was not positive, so that does taint my perspective a bit. We had to cancel a summer 2016 trip to Maui, so before canceling the reservation and getting the Points back, we first tried to rent the week on Redweek. We priced it in line with the other summer 2BR OF Maui Ocean Club weeks, waited about 3 or 4 months, and only got one nibble from someone looking to see if we would cut the price significantly. About 90 days before the date of the booking, I gave up and canceled the ad and called Marriott and had the points refunded to our account. We then used those points freed up from the one week Maui trip to book 14 nights at other MVC locations in 2016 and 2017.

Back in 2014 when we were trying to decide whether to buy into the Marriott points system, we received all the same advice as the OP is receiving, "Focus on weeks not Points, because Points are expensive"; "Just find another owner who will book the reservation for you and rent it from them"; "Buy weeks, rent them out for cash to other owners, and then use that cash to rent your own trips from other owners". In the end, we decided that pure weeks ownership was too inflexible for us to rely on as our primary vacation strategy. We also concluded we were totally uncomfortable renting from other owners and having to trust someone we didn't know to hold the reservation for us. We prefer to control our own reservation and not be listed just as an "additional guest" on the reservation of a complete stranger. In the end, we decided on a Hybrid Bundle built around a week at Barony Beach Club in Hilton Head. That gave us Points to use in the Points system, but also gave us a traditional enrolled week we could opt to use at Barony (4 hour drive from home) or even play in the II game from time to time. We don't regret that for a minute, and so far, it's worked out great for us. We usually book with points, but it's nice to know if we find a traditional week-based trade that we think should be pretty close to a sure thing to get, we have the option to try that as a cheaper alternative to points.

So my point in all this is to point out to the OP that many people on TUG have found different ways to make the system work for them - some prefer weeks, some of us prefer points, and others prefer renting - he just needs to figure out which category he falls into.


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## dgf15215

GoldenVIKE - if you're looking at this purchase using an economic model you should probably give it up while you can. This coming from someone who has a fair number of points (a combination of three different timeshares purchased before points and VC points purchased once they were available). The value of the system for us is that it commits us to vacation in great spots in wonderful facilities for weeks of the year. When our children were at home the scheduling was a bit tougher but we got through it; today they know that eventually they'll be inheriting our vacation assets. We are fortunate in that we're both self-employed and can schedule ourselves as convenient. We (well, actually my wife) have learned how early we need to book to get our first choices.

We also own a summer vacation condo about three hours away from us in a place with a short summer season that we use plus rent out for part of the summer; as president of the condo association I know what it costs to keep up a simple facility like ours and how much effort as a group we need to expend. I didn't want to own another property even further away that I had any responsibility for other than to pick up a key and return it some days later. We are not sure if we would ever decide to book any of these properties if we had to pay cash out of hand for each week. As it is we "own" them and need to use them. Yes, maintenance fees are high but when I looked at purchasing a small condo in FL (back when the market was ripe) and found out what the maintenance costs were I turned around and bought more VC points for ourselves . . . I'd prefer to sit on the beach and read rather than worry about a broken dishwasher or squeaky door.

So you might be better off not thinking of this as some "smart" investment because as has been repeated here, it has it's limitations in that regard. Your advantage is that the purchase cost for you will be spread out over 35-45 years of your use followed by another generation of usage by your children and their families. You'll pay the maintenance fees with your Marriott VISA card and collect points to use in the hotel system and use those points with great pleasure.

Good luck.


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## JIMinNC

dgf15215 said:


> GoldenVIKE - if you're looking at this purchase using an economic model you should probably give it up while you can. This coming from someone who has a fair number of points (a combination of three different timeshares purchased before points and VC points purchased once they were available). The value of the system for us is that it commits us to vacation in great spots in wonderful facilities for weeks of the year. When our children were at home the scheduling was a bit tougher but we got through it; today they know that eventually they'll be inheriting our vacation assets. We are fortunate in that we're both self-employed and can schedule ourselves as convenient. We (well, actually my wife) have learned how early we need to book to get our first choices.
> 
> We also own a summer vacation condo about three hours away from us in a place with a short summer season that we use plus rent out for part of the summer; as president of the condo association I know what it costs to keep up a simple facility like ours and how much effort as a group we need to expend. I didn't want to own another property even further away that I had any responsibility for other than to pick up a key and return it some days later. We are not sure if we would ever decide to book any of these properties if we had to pay cash out of hand for each week. As it is we "own" them and need to use them. Yes, maintenance fees are high but when I looked at purchasing a small condo in FL (back when the market was ripe) and found out what the maintenance costs were I turned around and bought more VC points for ourselves . . . I'd prefer to sit on the beach and read rather than worry about a broken dishwasher or squeaky door.
> 
> So you might be better off not thinking of this as some "smart" investment because as has been repeated here, it has it's limitations in that regard. Your advantage is that the purchase cost for you will be spread out over 35-45 years of your use followed by another generation of usage by your children and their families. You'll pay the maintenance fees with your Marriott VISA card and collect points to use in the hotel system and use those points with great pleasure.
> 
> Good luck.



BOOM! You nailed it!

Sometimes we get so twisted around trying to compare owning to renting and doing all the financial models, we lose sight of the REAL benefits of ownership vs. rental. Sometimes it's not just about the money, but about the intangible benefits that can't be put on a spreadsheet. After almost 20 years of timeshare ownership in two different systems, I can agree wholeheartedly that because we owned something where we were committed to paying the annual fees anyway, we took many great trips we might not have opted to take had we been forced to make the decision to rent. I don't like the term "forced vacations", but knowing that you have accommodations already paid for each year makes the question, "Where do we want to go?", not "Do we want to go at all?"

It's sorta like the summer vacation condo you said you also own. You can certainly do a financial analysis to see whether you are making money or losing money on that ownership, or whether you could save money by just renting instead of owning. But you can't put a price on the value of having a place to go where you can decide to go at the last minute, without making a reservation, and without planning. You own it, so if you decide on Thursday night you want to drive the three hours to spend a weekend at your place, you can. That's an intangible benefit you can't put a price tag on.

I know it's timeshare sales-speak to use the term "prepaid vacations", but there is considerable truth to that statement nevertheless, and it remains one of the most powerful intangibles for timeshare ownership.


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## davidvel

GoldenVIKE said:


> I see the irony - spreadsheets are easy for me and i had a lot of free time on the plane & Admirals Clubs over the past couple of days.  This is very good advice and I'm seriously considering our options based on everyones' feedback.  Thank you!


Could you give us your spreadsheet with the 50 internet comparisons of how much it'd cost to book various MVC villas through the internet, vs. how much they cost to book with DC points?

This is the bedrock of your entire analysis.


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## GaryDouglas

When is/was the end of your rescission period?


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## b2bailey

On a side note -- I just want to say I am impressed by the 'brain power' revealed on this post.

Question remains -- is there a valid reason to purchase Marriott direct if there are resale points available for purchase?


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## catharsis

b2bailey said:


> Question remains -- is there a valid reason to purchase Marriott direct if there are resale points available for purchase?


It was my impression that AFTER the junk fees were paid to marriott there was NO discernible difference whatsoever between developer and resale points?

I'd be very interested in hearing if that were not true.



Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## MOXJO7282

JIMinNC said:


> Having said that, as TUGgers know, you can get some great values with weeks-based trading - we traded a lowly Silver HHI Barony Beach Club Gardenview week to get a September 2017 week at HHI Grande Ocean (Gold season). We placed the request in early April 2016 and gave II a wide possible travel window from mid-Sept through the end of October 2017, but we didn't get a match (a mid-September week) until late November right after Thanksgiving. Having said that, booking the same reservation at Grande Ocean with points would have required 3450-4000 points (depending on view category), so that equates to a maintenance fee cost of roughly $1,825 to $2,100. Our maintenance fee cost on the 2017 Barony week was only $1,351 (and that was inflated by the $75 Hurricane Matthew special assessment). So it was a good financial deal to trade this time instead of using Points, and we may play the weeks trading game from time-to-time, but I am very glad we own both an enrolled week and Points, so we have the option to use either system. I can't imagine being forced to revert back to weeks based trading for EVERY trip we want to take. That's why we sold a non-Marriott week we used to own that traded in RCI, and bought into the Marriott system in 2014. I detest the waiting and uncertainty of trading. While Points come with no assurances either, it's much closer to "what you see is what you get."
> 
> As far as the rental approach is concerned, I guess I don't have the patience for that either, and based on the OP's comments, I wonder if they would have the same concern. I'm also not enamored with the person-to-person rental market, either acting as a renter or as a landlord. My one experience with trying to rent something on Redweek was not positive, so that does taint my perspective a bit. We had to cancel a summer 2016 trip to Maui, so before canceling the reservation and getting the Points back, we first tried to rent the week on Redweek. We priced it in line with the other summer 2BR OF Maui Ocean Club weeks, waited about 3 or 4 months, and only got one nibble from someone looking to see if we would cut the price significantly. About 90 days before the date of the booking, I gave up and canceled the ad and called Marriott and had the points refunded to our account. We then used those points freed up from the one week Maui trip to book 14 nights at other MVC locations in 2016 and 2017.



Two more cases that for me shows traditional weeks have more value.  First as Jim and others still state and I can attest, Marriott weeks, even off-season, trade extremely well. I've done the same 1/2 dozen times this year trading a gold for plat and fair units for great units. Just last Dec I scored a Maui 2BDRM for Pres week and multiple Grande Oceans for some lower cost Harbour Pointe weeks.

Second, the reason Jim couldn't rent his Maui unit was because it was acquired via points and his out of pocket costs for the points is much higher than weeks MFs so it prevents him from completing with the weeks owners.

Points are great for flexibility and that is about it as far as I can see. I do see a few value spots to maximize value but not compared to trading a week through II and scoring a big uptrade like Jim and many others have.


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## Saintsfanfl

catharsis said:


> It was my impression that AFTER the junk fees were paid to marriott there was NO discernible difference whatsoever between developer and resale points?
> 
> I'd be very interested in hearing if that were not true.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



I don't think that has ever been true. In the OP's example they were comparing the recent ROFR threshold against their net purchase price after incentives, both direct and indirect. With the recent report of points passing ROFR at $2.50 a point the comparison isn't close even after liberally applying the incentives.


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## Fasttr

Saintsfanfl said:


> I don't think that has ever been true. In the OP's example they were comparing the recent ROFR threshold against their net purchase price after incentives, both direct and indirect. With the recent report of points passing ROFR at $2.50 a point the comparison isn't close even after liberally applying the incentives.


I read the question the same way you did at first....then re-read it and I think catharsis was talking about the USAGE of resale points vs the USAGE of MVC purchased points are treated the same.  At least that was the conclusion I came to.


----------



## catharsis

Yes,. Usage of course

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## GregT

All,

Wow, this is an interesting thread -- alot of information going on here.

To the OP -- welcome to TUG and to Marriott, I believe both will enrich your life immensely as timeshares have changed the way I vacation and the family time is terrific.  We found timeshares when my kids were young (5,3,1) and we've taken over 60 vacations/long weekends over the last 10 years, the vast majority with timeshares.  We've been many places, with many more to go, and the memories are priceless.  It sounds like you are a quantitative person and I think you will come to enjoy maximizing the opportunities presented by Marriott (and perhaps one day, other timeshare systems).

Your 4,000 points are an excellent base from which to book future vacations, and renting points from others allows you to leverage your base significantly.  You don't need to buy more points, and once you find a favorite property (Grande Ocean, Maui Ocean Club, Ko Olina, Aruba Ocean Club), you may find you should buy a full week cheaply and inexpensively and use your points to extend those trips.  Fasttr did this, starting with points, and then buying (at least) one week at Grande Ocean.

I like MoxJo's strategy of buying more than you can personally use, and then renting the extra's to pay the MFs for everything.  I own far more of these things than I use, but I like the interplay of the different systems/fixed weeks/high quality trading weeks where I can do most things I want.   This does assume that your mind enjoys the game of maximizing the opportunities, but your quantitative approach does suggest it.   I don't view my timeshares as an investment -- other than an investment in my family, which is well worth that.

Good luck with this purchase, and enjoy your time here on TUG.  There is a wealth of wisdom that goes far beyond timeshares here, as you interact with strangers who have life experiences and wisdom that can be invaluable.  I credit JME with a fabulous post on the Time Value of Money -- and timeshares.  I included the link below (I couldn't embed?) -- and it has pearls of wisdom that are important for us, especially when we have young children.

[ 2014 ] Buy a Grande Ocean week....or just keep renting??

Welcome again, and please ask any and all questions!

Best,

Greg


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## Saintsfanfl

catharsis said:


> Yes,. Usage of course
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



It looks obvious now but my brain was wired for cost comparison with the way some of the other posts were going.


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## JIMinNC

MOXJO7282 said:


> Two more cases that for me shows traditional weeks have more value.  First as Jim and others still state and I can attest, Marriott weeks, even off-season, trade extremely well. I've done the same 1/2 dozen times this year trading a gold for plat and fair units for great units. Just last Dec I scored a Maui 2BDRM for Pres week and multiple Grande Oceans for some lower cost Harbour Pointe weeks.
> 
> Second, the reason Jim couldn't rent his Maui unit was because it was acquired via points and his out of pocket costs for the points is much higher than weeks MFs so it prevents him from completing with the weeks owners.
> 
> Points are great for flexibility and that is about it as far as I can see. I do see a few value spots to maximize value but not compared to trading a week through II and scoring a big uptrade like Jim and many others have.



No question some very good trades are available. But the question is not whether good trades can be had - they most certainly can. In this case I think the question is whether a particular individual is willing to go through the 1) book a week; 2) deposit it; 3) request a trade; and then 4) play the "wait for who knows how long to get that trade to come through" game for every trip they want to take. For me, being able to book something at 12-months out (or whatever) with Points and then knowing I have what I want is so much more satisfying and less uncertain. In specific situations (like my Grande Ocean trade above), I'm willing to use my week and play the game, but I couldn't imagine doing that 1/2 dozen times in a year as you say you did. Obviously, you don't have any major issues with the trading process, so it works well for you. I'm not 100% sure whether the OP comes down closer to my philosophy or closer to yours, but I just wanted to make sure he heard both sides of the story, so he could figure out what will work best for him and his family. Clearly, there is more "value" in weeks trading, but IMHO it does come with a hassle factor that can't be explicitly quantified.

You are correct that my out of pocket Points "cost" for the Maui week I was trying to rent on Redweek was higher than someone who owned a week there. But I priced the week at the lowest price for mid-June to mid-July 2BR OF weeks (it was a second half of June week), so it was competitive with other similar listings (and about half of what it would cost to book the same week online with Marriott) and I would still have made a few bucks over my cost. My cost did mean that I couldn't put in a low-ball listing, and that's actually become my impression of Redweek - it's a bargain basement where only fire-sale priced weeks actually rent.


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## Fasttr

JIMinNC said:


> No question some very good trades are available. But the question is not whether good trades can be had - they most certainly can. In this case I think the question is whether a particular individual is willing to go through the 1) book a week; 2) deposit it; 3) request a trade; and then 4) play the "wait for who knows how long to get that trade to come through" game for every trip they want to take. For me, being able to book something at 12-months out (or whatever) with Points and then knowing I have what I want is so much more satisfying and less uncertain.


Another benefit to not having to play the waiting game is being able to book flights very early on...with ability to snag FF seats, etc because you have your ressie locked in 12 or 13 months out.  As many have pointed out, the points game is costly, but it also does have some advantages.


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## Hi I'm new here

Long time lurker here, I just registered to say a few things to the OP. For the record we are former owners of a Marriott platinum HHI week. We bought from the developer, I wanted to rescind but my pride was on the line.  We paid cash, had young kids and enjoyed our weeks for the first seven or eight years. We didn't have flexibility to trade much, demanding jobs and employers with inflexible vacation policies.  I sweated bullets every year that I could get the week off.  As the kids got older the appeal decreased. Then kids reached a point they didn't want to go unless they could take a friend, then they didn't want to go period.  Then we got to the point where they couldn't go due to band camps, summer school, summer jobs.  We sold the unit through Marriott just before the market collapsed and just before Marriott raised its commission to 40 per cent. 
 I'm not a financial analyst but I could make a case we broke even since we used the weeks for vacation. At no time did we consider this to be an investment and selling it was a big relief. 
We like Marriott and still are loyal to their hotel properties.  We have rented Marriott weeks as well as condos and units from private owners. 


OK! Here goes
If you think posters here are giving you a hard time wait until you tell friends, coworkers and family you bought a timeshare.  They will think you are nuts and a poor financial manager.  Yes these are time shares but they call it something different involving points. 

Why buy something you can rent? Why pay ridiculous maintenance fees when you can rent a week and forget it.

Why are you taking out a loan to finance this?  I think I read you are carrying two homes already.  Timeshare owners defaulted left and right during the recession.  Health problems, job loss and a myriad
Of things can go wrong.
You should not buy from Marriott
You should not buy from the secondary market
You should not be renting points.
Don't commit to a timeshare purchase until you can pay cash. Wait until  you are in a strong enough position that you won't notice how expensive the ownership is. 

Good luck 
Thanks for listening


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## taffy19

What an honest post by "Hi I'm new here".  You have only one chance to rescind.

We love our timeshares and have owned some of them since the early 80's but we use them every year in a time period that we like to go.  Most of our timeshare units are fixed weeks with a fixed view so we don't have the headache to make reservations and also worrying about the view.

The resorts want to make them as liquid as they can today (from fixed week/units to floating units and views and now mostly points) so that they can rent condo units to hotel guests and certainly if it is a point based system and they are point owners too in that system.  Most of them are so it is completely legal.  In other words, they are competing with you.

In some of the documents they even mention a lottery if there is too much demand.  It may happen one day if they keep selling their top locations but the points are coming from resorts in less popular destinations.

I would read this post so you get the idea.  Who are they targeting here?


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## Saintsfanfl

Hi I'm new here said:


> Long time lurker here, I just registered to say a few things to the OP. For the record we are former owners of a Marriott platinum HHI week. We bought from the developer, I wanted to rescind but my pride was on the line.  We paid cash, had young kids and enjoyed our weeks for the first seven or eight years. We didn't have flexibility to trade much, demanding jobs and employers with inflexible vacation policies.  I sweated bullets every year that I could get the week off.  As the kids got older the appeal decreased. Then kids reached a point they didn't want to go unless they could take a friend, then they didn't want to go period.  Then we got to the point where they couldn't go due to band camps, summer school, summer jobs.  We sold the unit through Marriott just before the market collapsed and just before Marriott raised its commission to 40 per cent.
> I'm not a financial analyst but I could make a case we broke even since we used the weeks for vacation. At no time did we consider this to be an investment and selling it was a big relief.
> We like Marriott and still are loyal to their hotel properties.  We have rented Marriott weeks as well as condos and units from private owners.
> 
> 
> OK! Here goes
> If you think posters here are giving you a hard time wait until you tell friends, coworkers and family you bought a timeshare.  They will think you are nuts and a poor financial manager.  Yes these are time shares but they call it something different involving points.
> 
> Why buy something you can rent? Why pay ridiculous maintenance fees when you can rent a week and forget it.
> 
> Why are you taking out a loan to finance this?  I think I read you are carrying two homes already.  Timeshare owners defaulted left and right during the recession.  Health problems, job loss and a myriad
> Of things can go wrong.
> You should not buy from Marriott
> You should not buy from the secondary market
> You should not be renting points.
> Don't commit to a timeshare purchase until you can pay cash. Wait until  you are in a strong enough position that you won't notice how expensive the ownership is.
> 
> Good luck
> Thanks for listening



Your advice is not to buy or rent anything? Don't go on vacation? Maybe I missed something but I don't get it. I agreed with much of your post until the don't buy secondary or even rent. 

The OP is not your average regretful timeshare purchaser. They are holding two homes because they can afford to. I agree on not financing but I think they probably could have come up with the cash if they really wanted to.

Where most of us tuggers try and squeeze every ounce of monetary value out of our ownerships and trades the OP is probably more like the minority of tuggers that view the vacations as priceless. They make more than enough at their day jobs to afford it so it really isn't about the money. If the OP fits this profile then Dioxide's and GregT's posts are the best advice in the thread.


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## catharsis

iconnections said:


> You have only one chance to rescind.


This is inarguable .... and worth highlighting again even if the OP thinks that he likes the offering.  

Resale points at half or 2/3 the price seems like a good idea if points makes sense in the first place!

Can purchase through re/max or reputable brokers.



Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## larryallen

Oh ya, and if I was doing the timeshare thing all over, and had little kids still I would go DVC hands down!


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## Saintsfanfl

larryallen said:


> Oh ya, and if I was doing the timeshare thing all over, and had little kids still I would go DVC hands down!



That's a good option if you like Disney a lot. Otherwise I think there is a property on HHI and one in Hawaii. Marriott has a much better selection where use can continue after Disney gets old. And Marriott still has some pretty good properties in Orlando. Not necessarily knocking DVC but if you wanted one system to stay in for 20 years then it's MVCI over DVC.


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## GoldenVIKE

This is very insightful, thank you!  Yes, the things you've pointed out as frustrating would be endlessly frustrating to us.  We want the ability to have access to nice properties, pick the specific days we go, be able to cancel or change plans, etc.  Basically we don't want to sacrifice any of the flexibility we have in just booking Marriott.com, but we want access to more and bigger 2/3 bedroom places and to save a little money from if we were booking straight on a website.  As our kids grow the timing and types of our trips will likely change, so we don't want to be locked down.  I can see that there are many ways to take trips - and it's certainly temping to consider less flexible options when I see that you can get a week in a 2br villa at Frenchman's for $10k + $1600 maintenance during platinum season, and in many years that may be exactly what we do.  In those years the points thing will not have been as good as buying a week would have been.  But in other years we may want to do 4 nights in Vail and 5 nights in Orlando.  Those are the years were the points system would seem to work for us based on what I'm learning.


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## GoldenVIKE

You're right this is the key variable in the value calculations.  The website isn't letting me upload an Excel file, does that seem normal?  Below I've pasted it.  I've expanded the number of searches since the original 50.  I've omitted the first two as outliers and in some examples have omitted all Ritz properties since they likely aren't too easy to get for 4,000 pt level.  The last figure in each row below is the "value per point".  Sorry for the awkward pasting of a spreadsheet, but hopefully you get the gist...

Property Location Time Nights Unit Points Comp1 Straight
Ritz-Carlton Tahoe March Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd Apartment 3375 14176 $4.20
Ritz-Carlton Tahoe March Sunday-Friday (5) 3-bd Apartment 4625 19217 $4.16
Ritz-Carlton St Thomas March Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd Apartment 3500 9500 $2.71
Ritz-Carlton Tahoe July/Early August Week 2-bd Apartment 5175 12000 $2.32
Ritz-Carlton St Thomas Early/Mid December Week 2-bd Apartment 3900 8657 $2.22
Ritz-Carlton Tahoe July Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd Apartment 2625 5500 $2.10
Mountain Valley Lodge Breck Late March Sunday-Friday (5) 1-bd Villa 1125 2307 $2.05
Ritz-Carlton Vail Most of Jan-March Week 2-bd Apartment 7725 15701 $2.03
Ocean Club Aruba March Sunday-Friday (5) 1-bd Oceanview 1875 3798 $2.03
Ritz-Carlton Vail June Sunday-Friday (5) 3-bd 2625 4968 $1.89
Ocean Club Aruba March Week 1-bd Oceanview 2975 5424 $1.82
Grand Residences Tahoe Mid June Sunday-Friday (5) 1-bd Villa 675 1225 $1.81
Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas July Sunday-Friday (5) 3-bd Villa 2625 4517 $1.72
Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas August Sunday-Friday (5) 3-bd Villa 2625 4517 $1.72
Maui Ocean Club Hawaii March Week 1-bd Islandview 2925 4994 $1.71
Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas December Sunday-Friday (5) 3-bd Villa 2625 4460 $1.70
Surf Club Aruba December Week 1-bd Oceanside 2350 3968 $1.69
Mountain Valley Lodge Breck Mid March Sunday-Friday (5) 1-bd Villa 1375 2307 $1.68
Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas August Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd Villa 1875 3116 $1.66
Frenchman's Cove St Thomas February Week 2-bd Apartment 4125 6837.6 $1.66
Grand Residences Tahoe Mid June Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd Villa 1000 1641 $1.64
Ko Olina Hawaii April Week 2-bd Mountainview 4050 6254 $1.54
Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas July Week 3-bd Villa 4125 6267 $1.52
Marriott St Kitts Early/Mid December Week 2-bd Apartment 2975 4500 $1.51
Maui Ocean Club MM&L Hawaii March Sunday-Friday (5) 1-bd Gardenview 2250 3385 $1.50
Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas May Week 2-bd Villa 2875 4324 $1.50
Maui Ocean Club Hawaii July Week 1-bd Gardenview 3550 5313 $1.50
Mtn Valley Lodge Breck December Week Studio 1675 2440 $1.46
Streamside-Evergreen Vail June Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd 750 1090 $1.45
Ocean Club Aruba December Week 1-bd Oceanview 2350 3385 $1.44
Surf Club Aruba December Week 1-bd Oceanview 2350 3355 $1.43
Surf Club Aruba June Week Studio 1600 2282 $1.43
Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas August Week 2-bd Villa 2975 4142 $1.39
Ko Olina Hawaii April Week 1-bd Mountainview 2925 4060 $1.39
Ocean Club Aruba December Week 2-bd Oceanview 3500 4842 $1.38
Mtn Valley Lodge Breck December Week 1-bd Apartment 2225 3025 $1.36
Ko Olina Hawaii April Week 2-bd Oceanview 4925 6653 $1.35
Kauai Beach Club Hawaii December Week 1-bd Ocean front 3325 4438 $1.33
Surf Club Aruba December Week 2-bd Oceanside 3500 4620 $1.32
Kauai Beach Club Hawaii March Week Studio 2700 3564 $1.32
Custom House Boston Labor Day Week Week 1-bd Villa 3175 4180 $1.32
Waiohai Beach Club Hawaii May Week 2-bd Islandview 4225 5549 $1.31
Maui Ocean Club Hawaii July Week 1-bd Oceanview 4475 5867 $1.31
Maui Ocean Club Hawaii December Week 1-bd Ocean Front 4125 5390 $1.31
Custom House Boston June Week 1-bd Villa 3175 4146 $1.31
Kauai Beach Club Hawaii December Week 1-bd Oceanview 2750 3564 $1.30
Surf Club Aruba December Week 2-bd Oceanview 3500 4505 $1.29
Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas September Week 2-bd Villa 2350 3020 $1.29
Maui Ocean Club MM&L Hawaii March Sunday-Friday (5) 1-bd Oceanview 2875 3663 $1.27
Maui Ocean Club Hawaii November Week 1-bd Ocean Front 4125 5075 $1.23
Maui Ocean Club Hawaii November Week 1-bd Oceanview 3900 4675 $1.20
Waiohai Beach Club Hawaii May Week 2-bd Oceanview 5025 5946 $1.18
Waiohai Beach Club Hawaii March Week 2-bd Islandview 4850 5549 $1.14
Ocean Club Aruba December Week 2-bd Oceanfront 4525 5149 $1.14
Marriott Newport Coast SoCal December Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd Apartment 1500 1644 $1.10
Kauai Lagoons Hawaii May Week 2-bd Islandview 4125 4520 $1.10
Kauai Lagoons Hawaii May Week 3-bd Islandview 4875 5230 $1.07
Kauai Lagoons Hawaii November Week 3-bd Islandview 4875 5230 $1.07
Grand Residences Tahoe July/Early August Week 2-bd Apartment 4225 4526 $1.07
Barony Beach Club Hilton Head April Week 2-bd Garden View 2900 3095 $1.07
Ritz-Carlton San Fran October Week 1-bd 5225 5534 $1.06
Streamside-Evergreen Vail December Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd 1625 1717 $1.06
Grand Residences Tahoe July/Early August Week 1-bd Apartment 2950 3044 $1.03
Maui Ocean Club Hawaii September Week 1-bd Oceanview 3900 3995 $1.02
Waiohai Beach Club Hawaii March Week 2-bd Oceanview 5875 5946 $1.01
Kauai Lagoons Hawaii November Week 2-bd Ocean Front 6075 5946 $0.98
Kauai Lagoons Hawaii May Week 2-bd Oceanview 5100 4915 $0.96
Kauai Lagoons Hawaii May Week 3-bd Oceanview 5850 5630 $0.96
Kauai Lagoons Hawaii November Week 3-bd Oceanview 5850 5630 $0.96
Grand Residences Tahoe June Week 2-bd Apartment 3225 3067 $0.95
Ritz-Carlton Vail Early/Mid December Week 2-bd Apartment 6500 6049 $0.93
Mayflower D.C. June Week Hotel room 3275 3014 $0.92
Playa Andaluza Spain March Week 2-bd Garden View 1925 1694 $0.88
Barony Beach Club Hilton Head April Week 2-bd Ocean Front 4000 3518 $0.88
d'Ile France June Week 2-bd Apartment 2700 2356 $0.87
Grand Residences Tahoe June Week 1-bd Apartment 2400 2067 $0.86
Playa Andaluza Spain March Week 3-bd Garden View 2450 2023 $0.83
Grand Chateau Vegas April Week Room 1600 1167 $0.73
Grand Chateau Vegas New Years Week Week Room 2225 1528 $0.69
Grand Residences Tahoe June Sunday-Friday (5) 1-bd Apartment 1500 975 $0.65
Grand Chateau Vegas April Week 2-bd Apartment 3675 2356 $0.64
Grand Chateau Vegas New Years Week Week 2-bd Apartment 4625 2917 $0.63
Grand Residences Tahoe June Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd Apartment 2250 1419 $0.63


----------



## GoldenVIKE

Hi I'm new here said:


> Long time lurker here, I just registered to say a few things to the OP. For the record we are former owners of a Marriott platinum HHI week. We bought from the developer, I wanted to rescind but my pride was on the line.  We paid cash, had young kids and enjoyed our weeks for the first seven or eight years. We didn't have flexibility to trade much, demanding jobs and employers with inflexible vacation policies.  I sweated bullets every year that I could get the week off.  As the kids got older the appeal decreased. Then kids reached a point they didn't want to go unless they could take a friend, then they didn't want to go period.  Then we got to the point where they couldn't go due to band camps, summer school, summer jobs.  We sold the unit through Marriott just before the market collapsed and just before Marriott raised its commission to 40 per cent.
> I'm not a financial analyst but I could make a case we broke even since we used the weeks for vacation. At no time did we consider this to be an investment and selling it was a big relief.
> We like Marriott and still are loyal to their hotel properties.  We have rented Marriott weeks as well as condos and units from private owners.
> 
> 
> OK! Here goes
> If you think posters here are giving you a hard time wait until you tell friends, coworkers and family you bought a timeshare.  They will think you are nuts and a poor financial manager.  Yes these are time shares but they call it something different involving points.
> 
> Why buy something you can rent? Why pay ridiculous maintenance fees when you can rent a week and forget it.
> 
> Why are you taking out a loan to finance this?  I think I read you are carrying two homes already.  Timeshare owners defaulted left and right during the recession.  Health problems, job loss and a myriad
> Of things can go wrong.
> You should not buy from Marriott
> You should not buy from the secondary market
> You should not be renting points.
> Don't commit to a timeshare purchase until you can pay cash. Wait until  you are in a strong enough position that you won't notice how expensive the ownership is.
> 
> Good luck
> Thanks for listening



Totally agree with this.  I didn't give a detailed rundown of our financial position but it's very comfortable.  The only reason we're financing is to get the incentive associated with it, then we'll pay it off after 18 mo.  We could easily pay cash if we wanted.  But yes, I'm sure there are tons of people that get themselves in over their heads w/ stuff like this and your advice is rock solid if that were the situation.


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## GoldenVIKE

catharsis said:


> This is inarguable .... and worth highlighting again even if the OP thinks that he likes the offering.
> 
> Resale points at half or 2/3 the price seems like a good idea if points makes sense in the first place!
> 
> Can purchase through re/max or reputable brokers.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



Talked to a great broker today and seriously considering this, thanks!


----------



## dioxide45

It seems that time and time again, the only way to financially justify a DC developer point purchase is to compare it to prices on Marriott.com. That is what the sales folk do in a presentation, at least in the old days of weeks presentations. We would often see how prepaying for our vacation beat out Marriott.com rates. I do agree that if you are only willing to book on Marriott.com then buying DC points is going to save you money.

I simply don't understand the hesitance of person to person rental transactions. Tens of thousands of these things happen every year. VRBO, Home Away, Redweek. Very few people are out there to rip you off The true scam artists have much easier ways to take your money. The vast majority of renters, say more than 99.9% are just trying to recoup costs and make some profit. Sure, a little due diligence is needed and you may want to buy travel insurance in the event you need to cancel, but you still come out way ahead than if you had bought on Marriott.com. Plus we have to keep Joe in business


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## Hi I'm new here

I didn't say not to vacation.  I said not to rent points as an adjunct to owning some points. 
I said to rent condos, timeshares from owners if you want this accommodation.  We've done it and in the days of Redweek, VRBO, airb'b, Trip advisor and other sites it is incredibly easy.  We've rented Marriotts and places in Hawaii far nicer. 

I strongly suggest not to buy a timeshare. Why buy what is easy to rent?  Why buy a lifetime of high maintenance fees? A possible exception is buying on eBay .  We know someone who picked up a few including a Marriott for less than $500 bucks each, he is retired and flexible. 
If you must buy do not finance a timeshare.  Never ever go in debt for one. 

We've owned a Marriott timeshare, we sold just before the timeshare market collapsed.  I'm thankful we got out before the Destination club rolled out. Why would I pour more money into something unlikely to be worth much at resale.. No way would I pay $2200 per year maintenance fee on a modest destination club package.  I'm thankful we got out before the maintenance fee on our old place hit $1350 per year. 

We've owned a number of local income properties and our children's inheritance is secure.  We are  not financial novices. 
I truly wish the OP all the best.  I'm hoping he is not really a buyer.  I would love to read he is a student doing research or a salesman in training.


----------



## dioxide45

GoldenVIKE said:


> Talked to a great broker today and seriously considering this, thanks!


If you are considering this, don't wait around to recind your developer purchase. Once you are past your 5, 7, or 10 days, you are stuck with those points. No going back, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. However, if you rescind and later decide to go back to Marriott, they will be happy to take you money again. Given that you are even considering resale DC points, rescind now before it is too late.


----------



## dioxide45

GoldenVIKE said:


> Totally agree with this.  I didn't give a detailed rundown of our financial position but it's very comfortable.  The only reason we're financing is to get the incentive associated with it, then we'll pay it off after 18 mo.  We could easily pay cash if we wanted.  But yes, I'm sure there are tons of people that get themselves in over their heads w/ stuff like this and your advice is rock solid if that were the situation.


The problem with financing is the high interest rates you pay for Marriott financing. ON a $40,000 loan at 12.5%, you will pay almost $7,200 in interest. Are the financing incentives worth that much money?


----------



## davidvel

Amazing how the OP had all these units broken down using DC point value and supposed Marriott price, then comes here with first post and says "Was it a good choice?" He's got a great Within a day he has convinced himself its a great choice and is not rescinding.  

And, as I suspected the list includes hand-picked mid-week and short stays. I swear I'm sitting through my last presentation at Shadow Ridge. The 5 day mid-week Ritz Carlton sounded familiar to me. Is it you SeaDoc?:


SeaDoc said:


> I can do a five day 3 bedroom Ritz Carlton Northstar during ski season for 3500 points which is worth $4000 nightly on the Ritz website. A $20000 vacation.


Good luck getting those reservations at the Ritz, etc. 
This thread comes to mind: http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...or-newcomers-to-marriott.242321/#post-1891702


----------



## Saintsfanfl

davidvel said:


> Amazing how the OP had all these units broken down using DC point value and supposed Marriott price, then comes here with first post and says "Was it a good choice?" He's got a great Within a day he has convinced himself its a great choice and is not rescinding.
> 
> And, as I suspected the list includes hand-picked mid-week and short stays. I swear I'm sitting through my last presentation at Shadow Ridge. The 5 day mid-week Ritz Carlton sounded familiar to me. Is it you SeaDoc?:
> 
> Good luck getting those reservations at the Ritz, etc.
> This thread comes to mind: http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...or-newcomers-to-marriott.242321/#post-1891702



It's human nature to what to convince yourself that you made a good choice, especially while still emotional. That said, would someone with ulterior motives post under their real name?


----------



## GoldenVIKE

dioxide45 said:


> The problem with financing is the high interest rates you pay for Marriott financing. ON a $40,000 loan at 12.5%, you will pay almost $7,200 in interest. Are the financing incentives worth that much money?



We got 8.99% due to credit score over 800 and 10-yr term.  But your point is valid regardless.


----------



## Fasttr

GoldenVIKE said:


> We got 8.99% due to credit score over 800 and 10-yr term.  But your point is valid regardless.


A few questions about the two batches of 4000 incentive points.

Are they single Use Year points (unable to be banked, borrowed and transferred?)
Do you get the first batch right away?
Do you get the second batch 18 months after closing?
Do you know approximate start and end dates of the incentive points (are they calendar year or run on a non calendar year like your purchased points will)?
Are you sure you will have a need/be able to use the incentive points during their Use Year windows.
Just prodding you to think through the true value of those incentives. If you get use from them, great.  If not, it makes their value less shiny.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

b2bailey said:


> On a side note -- I just want to say I am impressed by the 'brain power' revealed on this post.
> 
> Question remains -- is there a valid reason to purchase Marriott direct if there are resale points available for purchase?



IMHO based on the wonderful free education provided by this group, no.  In my initial analysis I felt that paying 2-15% extra up front to go direct through Marriott was worth it just for convenience and to have a contact within the sales team I could go to for advice.  Since then I've learned that (a) while the recurring points have some special value due to benefits associated with various membership levels, the "add on" points are really only worth what it'd cost to rent them ($0.60 or so).  Also, a broker has confirmed the level of bid that can typically be expected to pass FROR.  In short, I overstated the value of buying through Marriott and understated the value of buying resale.  Adjusting for the latest information within the model I had originally created puts the discount for buying resale is 30-45% net of all of the various costs and benefits of each option.  I'll feel bad rescinding, in particular regarding the salesperson who seems like a good guy and did a very nice job.  But at the end of the day, this TUG group has convinced me to rescind our MVCI package to do more research before we ultimately decide to buy a TS or not.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

*swish*


----------



## GregT

GoldenVIKE said:


> You're right this is the key variable in the value calculations.  The website isn't letting me upload an Excel file, does that seem normal?  Below I've pasted it.  I've expanded the number of searches since the original 50.  I've omitted the first two as outliers and in some examples have omitted all Ritz properties since they likely aren't too easy to get for 4,000 pt level.  The last figure in each row below is the "value per point".  Sorry for the awkward pasting of a spreadsheet, but hopefully you get the gist...
> 
> Property Location Time Nights Unit Points Comp1 Straight
> Ritz-Carlton Tahoe March Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd Apartment 3375 14176 $4.20
> Ritz-Carlton Tahoe March Sunday-Friday (5) 3-bd Apartment 4625 19217 $4.16
> Ritz-Carlton St Thomas March Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd Apartment 3500 9500 $2.71
> Ritz-Carlton Tahoe July/Early August Week 2-bd Apartment 5175 12000 $2.32
> Ritz-Carlton St Thomas Early/Mid December Week 2-bd Apartment 3900 8657 $2.22
> Ritz-Carlton Tahoe July Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd Apartment 2625 5500 $2.10
> Mountain Valley Lodge Breck Late March Sunday-Friday (5) 1-bd Villa 1125 2307 $2.05
> Ritz-Carlton Vail Most of Jan-March Week 2-bd Apartment 7725 15701 $2.03
> Ocean Club Aruba March Sunday-Friday (5) 1-bd Oceanview 1875 3798 $2.03
> Ritz-Carlton Vail June Sunday-Friday (5) 3-bd 2625 4968 $1.89
> Ocean Club Aruba March Week 1-bd Oceanview 2975 5424 $1.82
> Grand Residences Tahoe Mid June Sunday-Friday (5) 1-bd Villa 675 1225 $1.81
> Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas July Sunday-Friday (5) 3-bd Villa 2625 4517 $1.72
> Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas August Sunday-Friday (5) 3-bd Villa 2625 4517 $1.72
> Maui Ocean Club Hawaii March Week 1-bd Islandview 2925 4994 $1.71
> Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas December Sunday-Friday (5) 3-bd Villa 2625 4460 $1.70
> Surf Club Aruba December Week 1-bd Oceanside 2350 3968 $1.69
> Mountain Valley Lodge Breck Mid March Sunday-Friday (5) 1-bd Villa 1375 2307 $1.68
> Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas August Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd Villa 1875 3116 $1.66
> Frenchman's Cove St Thomas February Week 2-bd Apartment 4125 6837.6 $1.66
> Grand Residences Tahoe Mid June Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd Villa 1000 1641 $1.64
> Ko Olina Hawaii April Week 2-bd Mountainview 4050 6254 $1.54
> Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas July Week 3-bd Villa 4125 6267 $1.52
> Marriott St Kitts Early/Mid December Week 2-bd Apartment 2975 4500 $1.51
> Maui Ocean Club MM&L Hawaii March Sunday-Friday (5) 1-bd Gardenview 2250 3385 $1.50
> Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas May Week 2-bd Villa 2875 4324 $1.50
> Maui Ocean Club Hawaii July Week 1-bd Gardenview 3550 5313 $1.50
> Mtn Valley Lodge Breck December Week Studio 1675 2440 $1.46
> Streamside-Evergreen Vail June Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd 750 1090 $1.45
> Ocean Club Aruba December Week 1-bd Oceanview 2350 3385 $1.44
> Surf Club Aruba December Week 1-bd Oceanview 2350 3355 $1.43
> Surf Club Aruba June Week Studio 1600 2282 $1.43
> Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas August Week 2-bd Villa 2975 4142 $1.39
> Ko Olina Hawaii April Week 1-bd Mountainview 2925 4060 $1.39
> Ocean Club Aruba December Week 2-bd Oceanview 3500 4842 $1.38
> Mtn Valley Lodge Breck December Week 1-bd Apartment 2225 3025 $1.36
> Ko Olina Hawaii April Week 2-bd Oceanview 4925 6653 $1.35
> Kauai Beach Club Hawaii December Week 1-bd Ocean front 3325 4438 $1.33
> Surf Club Aruba December Week 2-bd Oceanside 3500 4620 $1.32
> Kauai Beach Club Hawaii March Week Studio 2700 3564 $1.32
> Custom House Boston Labor Day Week Week 1-bd Villa 3175 4180 $1.32
> Waiohai Beach Club Hawaii May Week 2-bd Islandview 4225 5549 $1.31
> Maui Ocean Club Hawaii July Week 1-bd Oceanview 4475 5867 $1.31
> Maui Ocean Club Hawaii December Week 1-bd Ocean Front 4125 5390 $1.31
> Custom House Boston June Week 1-bd Villa 3175 4146 $1.31
> Kauai Beach Club Hawaii December Week 1-bd Oceanview 2750 3564 $1.30
> Surf Club Aruba December Week 2-bd Oceanview 3500 4505 $1.29
> Frenchman's Cove St. Thomas September Week 2-bd Villa 2350 3020 $1.29
> Maui Ocean Club MM&L Hawaii March Sunday-Friday (5) 1-bd Oceanview 2875 3663 $1.27
> Maui Ocean Club Hawaii November Week 1-bd Ocean Front 4125 5075 $1.23
> Maui Ocean Club Hawaii November Week 1-bd Oceanview 3900 4675 $1.20
> Waiohai Beach Club Hawaii May Week 2-bd Oceanview 5025 5946 $1.18
> Waiohai Beach Club Hawaii March Week 2-bd Islandview 4850 5549 $1.14
> Ocean Club Aruba December Week 2-bd Oceanfront 4525 5149 $1.14
> Marriott Newport Coast SoCal December Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd Apartment 1500 1644 $1.10
> Kauai Lagoons Hawaii May Week 2-bd Islandview 4125 4520 $1.10
> Kauai Lagoons Hawaii May Week 3-bd Islandview 4875 5230 $1.07
> Kauai Lagoons Hawaii November Week 3-bd Islandview 4875 5230 $1.07
> Grand Residences Tahoe July/Early August Week 2-bd Apartment 4225 4526 $1.07
> Barony Beach Club Hilton Head April Week 2-bd Garden View 2900 3095 $1.07
> Ritz-Carlton San Fran October Week 1-bd 5225 5534 $1.06
> Streamside-Evergreen Vail December Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd 1625 1717 $1.06
> Grand Residences Tahoe July/Early August Week 1-bd Apartment 2950 3044 $1.03
> Maui Ocean Club Hawaii September Week 1-bd Oceanview 3900 3995 $1.02
> Waiohai Beach Club Hawaii March Week 2-bd Oceanview 5875 5946 $1.01
> Kauai Lagoons Hawaii November Week 2-bd Ocean Front 6075 5946 $0.98
> Kauai Lagoons Hawaii May Week 2-bd Oceanview 5100 4915 $0.96
> Kauai Lagoons Hawaii May Week 3-bd Oceanview 5850 5630 $0.96
> Kauai Lagoons Hawaii November Week 3-bd Oceanview 5850 5630 $0.96
> Grand Residences Tahoe June Week 2-bd Apartment 3225 3067 $0.95
> Ritz-Carlton Vail Early/Mid December Week 2-bd Apartment 6500 6049 $0.93
> Mayflower D.C. June Week Hotel room 3275 3014 $0.92
> Playa Andaluza Spain March Week 2-bd Garden View 1925 1694 $0.88
> Barony Beach Club Hilton Head April Week 2-bd Ocean Front 4000 3518 $0.88
> d'Ile France June Week 2-bd Apartment 2700 2356 $0.87
> Grand Residences Tahoe June Week 1-bd Apartment 2400 2067 $0.86
> Playa Andaluza Spain March Week 3-bd Garden View 2450 2023 $0.83
> Grand Chateau Vegas April Week Room 1600 1167 $0.73
> Grand Chateau Vegas New Years Week Week Room 2225 1528 $0.69
> Grand Residences Tahoe June Sunday-Friday (5) 1-bd Apartment 1500 975 $0.65
> Grand Chateau Vegas April Week 2-bd Apartment 3675 2356 $0.64
> Grand Chateau Vegas New Years Week Week 2-bd Apartment 4625 2917 $0.63
> Grand Residences Tahoe June Sunday-Friday (5) 2-bd Apartment 2250 1419 $0.63



That's an impressive amount of work -- love the research!

I encourage you to enjoy your 4,000 points, to also figure out how to rent points to further leverage your base package, to learn the properties and locations that you love, and to contemplate one day a traditional Marriott week to supplement your ownership.

Then when you are hitting on all cyclinders, we'll talk about HGVC and Starwood too.  There's gold in those hills too.

Welcome to TUG!

Best,

Greg


----------



## Saintsfanfl

As a big fan of Marriott and their properties, I do hope you continue in your quest and settle on some type of timeshare ownership and enjoy their properties. Of course you can rent and not own but owning at some level "feels" good.


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## GoldenVIKE

Saintsfanfl said:


> As a big fan of Marriott and their properties, I do hope you continue in your quest and settle on some type of timeshare ownership and enjoy their properties. Of course you can rent and not own but owning at some level "feels" good.



Totally agree!  I like the idea of someday having some DC points for ease, variety, and flexibility, plus perhaps a fixed week at a property we really like.  But whatever we do we'll make sure to shop around a little to ensure that we're getting at least a reasonably good deal on it!


----------



## dioxide45

GoldenVIKE said:


> I'll feel bad rescinding, in particular regarding the salesperson who seems like a good guy and did a very nice job. But at the end of the day, this TUG group has convinced me to rescind our MVCI package to do more research before we ultimately decide to buy a TS or not.


No need to feel bad. Don't bring emotion in to the decision and don't talk to or take any calls from the sale person after you send your rescission letter. Their goal is to retain the sale, don't let emotion and their additional pitches and potential untruths sway you.


----------



## GregT

GoldenVIKE said:


> I'll feel bad rescinding, in particular regarding the salesperson who seems like a good guy and did a very nice job.  But at the end of the day, this TUG group has convinced me to rescind our MVCI package to do more research before we ultimately decide to buy a TS or not.



GoldenVIKE,

I'm so sorry -- I didn't realize you were still in recission period, I thought it was a done deal.  I need to read more carefully  Please do rescind -- save the money -- you can still get all the things that we are talking about here by buying resale.  Thx Dioxide for highlighting this.

I am highly confident you will get the positive aspects we've highlighted -- just please give yourself a little more time.  eBay has many point packages available and they are going for a song -- it's really a shame.  But it's good for those who are studying it carefully.

Please let us know what you decide.

Best,

Greg


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> It seems that time and time again, the only way to financially justify a DC developer point purchase is to compare it to prices on Marriott.com. That is what the sales folk do in a presentation, at least in the old days of weeks presentations. We would often see how prepaying for our vacation beat out Marriott.com rates. I do agree that if you are only willing to book on Marriott.com then buying DC points is going to save you money.
> 
> I simply don't understand the hesitance of person to person rental transactions. Tens of thousands of these things happen every year. VRBO, Home Away, Redweek. Very few people are out there to rip you off The true scam artists have much easier ways to take your money. The vast majority of renters, say more than 99.9% are just trying to recoup costs and make some profit. Sure, a little due diligence is needed and you may want to buy travel insurance in the event you need to cancel, but you still come out way ahead than if you had bought on Marriott.com. Plus we have to keep Joe in business



You are correct that for those who are comfortable with booking a person-to-person rental, comparing ownership to the prices on Marriott.com is meaningless. In fact, even many resale purchases can be hard to justify if the comparison is the prices you can get on Redweek. I have just never been comfortable with those kinds of transactions. That is why I always use regular online booking prices - not because that makes it easier to justify the ownership, but because that is the only yardstick that is relevant to the way that WE would book travel.

In my case it's just a preference to have the security of a confirmation number in my own name and not to have a middleman. If I make a lodging reservation using Marriott.com, Hilton.com, etc. and there is a problem when I check-in, I've got a multi-billion-dollar corporation that has an obligation and the potential resources to make it right. If instead, I rent it from Aunt Maude in Peoria whom I have never met and something goes wrong, my recourse is to Aunt Maude who probably can't do anything for me. Aunt Maude may not even be trying to scam me; maybe she just screwed something up when she was making the reservation.

Frankly, while I often use Orbitz, Expedia, or other such online travel sites to shop for hotels when I need a hotel for business or other trips where a timeshare won't work, I will usually go to the actual hotel company site to actually make the booking, because 99% of the time, I've found the rates to be identical to the general travel websites (except maybe for the prepaid rates, which I never use). That way, I have a confirmation in my name from the exact hotel company I'm staying with. I will always remember a time about 10 or 15 years ago when I was waiting in line to check-in at a hotel, and the person in front of me had used one of the online travel sites to book his reservation. The hotel didn't have the reservation, even though he had a confirmation from whichever travel site he used. The hotel desk clerk told him he had to take the issue up with the company who made the reservation. The hotel couldn't help him. After witnessing that, I promised myself I would always book direct whenever possible.

Another example. My son is in college at Georgia Tech and used AirBNB for lodging to go with a friend to the TaxSlayer Bowl in Jacksonville back in late December. They made two bookings, only to have both of them cancelled within 24 hours of booking by AirBNB because the renter had already rented the room elsewhere, but not removed the AirBNB ad. On the third try, they finally got one that stuck. While that's an extreme example, it is an example of why I have concerns about dealing with individuals who are not professionals in the lodging business with the resources to stand behind their bookings. As I said in my example of Aunt Maude, it doesn't have to be fraud, it can be an honest mistake by an amateur that causes you pain on check-in.

Sometimes it's not all about getting the cheapest price. Peace of mind is worth something. I think I would have difficulty sleeping at night in the months leading up to check-in if I made a person-to-person booking. The issue is the need to do the transaction and pay months before check-in, and wondering for all those months if everything will be OK at check-in. I guess it's not a specific discomfort with dealing with a stranger, per se, because I am willing to rent DC points to supplement my owned points (and have done so once for a small amount). But with point rentals, the window of exposure  between payment and getting the points into your account can only be a matter of a few hours, or even minutes. And once the points are in my account, they are mine, and I can make my own reservation. But with an owner rental of a week, I would have to deal with the risk exposure for months, all the way until check-in.

Honestly though, while we have to compare ownership to booking on Marriott.com to create an apples-to-apples comparison for us, in actual practice, I doubt I would ever be willing to pay the rental rates needed to book a MVC condo on Marriott.com. Even in Hilton Head, they can top $500/night for a 2BR at Barony or GO, and other more exotic locations like Maui can easily top that by a wide margin in high seasons (I think over $1000/night for a 2BR OF at MOC in high season). The reality is, if we didn't own, we would have to make do with a hotel room given our lack of comfort with P2P rentals. So the REAL benefit of ownership is getting the larger units for a more affordable cost than we could book elsewhere.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

JIMinNC said:


> You are correct that for those who are comfortable with booking a person-to-person rental, comparing ownership to the prices on Marriott.com is meaningless. In fact, even many resale purchases can be hard to justify if the comparison is the prices you can get on Redweek. I have just never been comfortable with those kinds of transactions. That is why I always use regular online booking prices - not because that makes it easier to justify the ownership, but because that is the only yardstick that is relevant to the way that WE would book travel.
> 
> In my case it's just a preference to have the security of a confirmation number in my own name and not to have a middleman. If I make a lodging reservation using Marriott.com, Hilton.com, etc. and there is a problem when I check-in, I've got a multi-billion-dollar corporation that has an obligation and the potential resources to make it right. If instead, I rent it from Aunt Maude in Peoria whom I have never met and something goes wrong, my recourse is to Aunt Maude who probably can't do anything for me. Aunt Maude may not even be trying to scam me; maybe she just screwed something up when she was making the reservation.
> 
> Frankly, while I often use Orbitz, Expedia, or other such online travel sites to shop for hotels when I need a hotel for business or other trips where a timeshare won't work, I will usually go to the actual hotel company site to actually make the booking, because 99% of the time, I've found the rates to be identical to the general travel websites (except maybe for the prepaid rates, which I never use). That way, I have a confirmation in my name from the exact hotel company I'm staying with. I will always remember a time about 10 or 15 years ago when I was waiting in line to check-in at a hotel, and the person in front of me had used one of the online travel sites to book his reservation. The hotel didn't have the reservation, even though he had a confirmation from whichever travel site he used. The hotel desk clerk told him he had to take the issue up with the company who made the reservation. The hotel couldn't help him. After witnessing that, I promised myself I would always book direct whenever possible.
> 
> Another example. My son is in college at Georgia Tech and used AirBNB for lodging to go with a friend to the TaxSlayer Bowl in Jacksonville back in late December. They made two bookings, only to have both of them cancelled within 24 hours of booking by AirBNB because the renter had already rented the room elsewhere, but not removed the AirBNB ad. On the third try, they finally got one that stuck. While that's an extreme example, it is an example of why I have concerns about dealing with individuals who are not professionals in the lodging business with the resources to stand behind their bookings. As I said in my example of Aunt Maude, it doesn't have to be fraud, it can be an honest mistake by an amateur that causes you pain on check-in.
> 
> Sometimes it's not all about getting the cheapest price. Peace of mind is worth something. I think I would have difficulty sleeping at night in the months leading up to check-in if I made a person-to-person booking. The issue is the need to do the transaction and pay months before check-in, and wondering for all those months if everything will be OK at check-in. I guess it's not a specific discomfort with dealing with a stranger, per se, because I am willing to rent DC points to supplement my owned points (and have done so once for a small amount). But with point rentals, the window of exposure  between payment and getting the points into your account can only be a matter of a few hours, or even minutes. And once the points are in my account, they are mine, and I can make my own reservation. But with an owner rental of a week, I would have to deal with the risk exposure for months, all the way until check-in.
> 
> Honestly though, while we have to compare ownership to booking on Marriott.com to create an apples-to-apples comparison for us, in actual practice, I doubt I would ever be willing to pay the rental rates needed to book a MVC condo on Marriott.com. Even in Hilton Head, they can top $500/night for a 2BR at Barony or GO, and other more exotic locations like Maui can easily top that by a wide margin in high seasons (I think over $1000/night for a 2BR OF at MOC in high season). The reality is, if we didn't own, we would have to make do with a hotel room given our lack of comfort with P2P rentals. So the REAL benefit of ownership is getting the larger units for a more affordable cost than we could book elsewhere.



Very well said, I'm with you 100% on this.  Your trepidation about P2P is multiplied for us who have multiple young kids and sometimes family traveling too.  Imagine flying 6 people down to some island and then finding out you have no room!  I'm glad to hear that renting points is as fast and seamless as it is.  It sounds like a very nice option.  We NEED 2/3 bedroom places, so while the direction I'm leaning seems to be changing by the hour lately, at this point perhaps we'll go with a limited resale DC package, and augment through renting points, until we have some experience under our belt, and then we can either buy more points or buy a week somewhere.  Ask me again tomorrow and I'll have a different plan


----------



## jme

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> Wow, this is an interesting thread -- alot of information going on here.
> 
> To the OP -- welcome to TUG and to Marriott, I believe both will enrich your life immensely as timeshares have changed the way I vacation and the family time is terrific.  We found timeshares when my kids were young (5,3,1) and we've taken over 60 vacations/long weekends over the last 10 years, the vast majority with timeshares.  We've been many places, with many more to go, and the memories are priceless.  It sounds like you are a quantitative person and I think you will come to enjoy maximizing the opportunities presented by Marriott (and perhaps one day, other timeshare systems).
> 
> Your 4,000 points are an excellent base from which to book future vacations, and renting points from others allows you to leverage your base significantly.  You don't need to buy more points, and once you find a favorite property (Grande Ocean, Maui Ocean Club, Ko Olina, Aruba Ocean Club), you may find you should buy a full week cheaply and inexpensively and use your points to extend those trips.  Fasttr did this, starting with points, and then buying (at least) one week at Grande Ocean.
> 
> I like MoxJo's strategy of buying more than you can personally use, and then renting the extra's to pay the MFs for everything.  I own far more of these things than I use, but I like the interplay of the different systems/fixed weeks/high quality trading weeks where I can do most things I want.   This does assume that your mind enjoys the game of maximizing the opportunities, but your quantitative approach does suggest it.   I don't view my timeshares as an investment -- other than an investment in my family, which is well worth that.
> 
> Good luck with this purchase, and enjoy your time here on TUG.  There is a wealth of wisdom that goes far beyond timeshares here, as you interact with strangers who have life experiences and wisdom that can be invaluable.  I credit JME with a fabulous post on the Time Value of Money -- and timeshares.  I included the link below (I couldn't embed?) -- and it has pearls of wisdom that are important for us, especially when we have young children.
> 
> [ 2014 ] Buy a Grande Ocean week....or just keep renting??
> 
> Welcome again, and please ask any and all questions!
> Best, Greg




great points....and I'll try to dig up that old post......


----------



## jme

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> Wow, this is an interesting thread -- alot of information going on here.
> 
> To the OP -- welcome to TUG and to Marriott, I believe both will enrich your life immensely as timeshares have changed the way I vacation and the family time is terrific.  We found timeshares when my kids were young (5,3,1) and we've taken over 60 vacations/long weekends over the last 10 years, the vast majority with timeshares.  We've been many places, with many more to go, and the memories are priceless.  It sounds like you are a quantitative person and I think you will come to enjoy maximizing the opportunities presented by Marriott (and perhaps one day, other timeshare systems).
> 
> Your 4,000 points are an excellent base from which to book future vacations, and renting points from others allows you to leverage your base significantly.  You don't need to buy more points, and once you find a favorite property (Grande Ocean, Maui Ocean Club, Ko Olina, Aruba Ocean Club), you may find you should buy a full week cheaply and inexpensively and use your points to extend those trips.  Fasttr did this, starting with points, and then buying (at least) one week at Grande Ocean.
> 
> I like MoxJo's strategy of buying more than you can personally use, and then renting the extra's to pay the MFs for everything.  I own far more of these things than I use, but I like the interplay of the different systems/fixed weeks/high quality trading weeks where I can do most things I want.   This does assume that your mind enjoys the game of maximizing the opportunities, but your quantitative approach does suggest it.   I don't view my timeshares as an investment -- other than an investment in my family, which is well worth that.
> 
> Good luck with this purchase, and enjoy your time here on TUG.  There is a wealth of wisdom that goes far beyond timeshares here, as you interact with strangers who have life experiences and wisdom that can be invaluable.  I credit JME with a fabulous post on the Time Value of Money -- and timeshares.  I included the link below (I couldn't embed?) -- and it has pearls of wisdom that are important for us, especially when we have young children.
> 
> [ 2014 ] Buy a Grande Ocean week....or just keep renting??
> 
> Welcome again, and please ask any and all questions!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg




Greg, thank you sincerely.

Per your last paragraph above, I found that old thread and my post to which you were alluding,
and I appreciate your remembering it. I've linked to it below. It was a a thread about
investing money independently as opposed to buying/financing timeshares, etc, and what
money could do over time---a somewhat similar conversation
regarding the financial analyses and "what to do and how to do it" contained in the current thread,
and it similarly evoked thoughts about "investments".

After re-reading my thoughts back in August of 2014, I can only say that for me, it's truer today than ever before. My kids are out on their own, but I see clearer than ever that the times, i.e. "moments in time", we shared together, especially on vacations courtesy of Marriott, were worth far more in this life than anything I could ever buy, realize through investment gain (instead of vacations), or obtain by any other method.

"Priceless" would be the trite old cliche, but I cannot come up with a better word or description than that. And that word means simply that there is no sum of money, regardless of the amount, that could ever begin to approach the value of something obtained. What would anyone take as a substitute for precious moments with their children? Say, for example a moment that the whole family remembers and subsequently bursts into laughter----something spontaneous that happened on vacation---- or maybe another completely different moment that instead causes everyone to well up and shed tears as they retell it. Could have been a special day for everyone, or maybe just a brief moment shared by only two, but regardless, it became seared into the memories and into the hearts. I have many of those, but then I'm a sentimental guy, and I hold onto such things tenaciously. Family vacations offered more opportunity for those moments, hence the value.

The more wonderful memories we have, the richer our lives become. As we get older, maybe memories will be all we have to cling to.
Timesharing has facilitated that to a significant degree. Growing up, I didn't have a lot of travel memories involving family, so I was determined to change that.

So contrary to my parents' practices, I decided to opt for planned vacations---- to "go and do"---- and that is, together as a family,
and to repeat often.
I might have been going against the old sage advice, but my motto has always been "Don't ever underestimate the QUANTITY of time together", as many have always touted simply the quality of time together. I never bought into that.
Both are important, but I hold quantity in very high regard. Timesharing allowed for the quantity, and luckily also added the quality. When all is said and done, it doesn't really matter how anyone does it, though, it's just important to do it. If it's affordable and it appeals to anyone, go for it. We have our way and it worked out well.

Anyway, here it is......my thoughts as expressed in August of 2014 in the following thread, specifically post #23:
http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...eek-or-just-keep-renting.216143/#post-1667332

To this day, Greg, I sincerely appreciate your reply immediately following that post.... I think it must have rung true for you too.
My hope back then (and still is now) was that maybe I could inspire someone out there to take a chance on putting their finger down on a calendar, or on a map, and say, "OK, this will be the day or place we will be going to spend time together", and then devising a method whereby they could do it....... then and again, and again.

Looking back on how we did it, I have no regrets. My wife says the same over and over in many different ways, and it's obvious that everything we have done, and everything we have seen "all together as a family", has not only been remembered but cherished. Nothing else would have been as valuable a substitute. As a matter of fact, it probably would never have happened at all. To this day the children thank me often for "whatever it was" that caused that little spark in the "Aha moment" two decades ago
when I suddenly realized "Yes, we can do this".
It literally changed our lives, and set up the bank into which we have repeatedly placed memory upon special memory.

There is no family conversation so precious as the one which begins, "Remember when....."

Like I said in that old post, "there are investments and there are investments".


----------



## Quilter

davidvel said:


> Is it you SeaDoc?:



Gotta say this thread brought SeaDoc to my mind.   Seems a while since I've seen a post from him.


----------



## Quilter

Saintsfanfl said:


> That said, would someone with ulterior motives post under their real name?



Who knows it's real?

TUG sure would be a fine place for a new salesperson to cut their teeth on all the possible debates they'll be getting during a sales presentation.   Every angled covered in just one thread.


----------



## MOXJO7282

GoldenVIKE said:


> Very well said, I'm with you 100% on this.  Your trepidation about P2P is multiplied for us who have multiple young kids and sometimes family traveling too.  Imagine flying 6 people down to some island and then finding out you have no room!  I'm glad to hear that renting points is as fast and seamless as it is.  It sounds like a very nice option.  We NEED 2/3 bedroom places, so while the direction I'm leaning seems to be changing by the hour lately, at this point perhaps we'll go with a limited resale DC package, and augment through renting points, until we have some experience under our belt, and then we can either buy more points or buy a week somewhere.  Ask me again tomorrow and I'll have a different plan



You're overly concerned about the P2P renting as there are many reputable owners that would provide you ample proof they are legit that you can confirm very easily.   I'm not saying it because I'm one of them it's just a fact. 

I do always say either buy more than one and rent the extra for an ROI or don't buy any and just rent from owners like me because there are just so many owners renting it is very easy to find a reputable owner and a good price so there really isn't a need to lay out big bucks to own something yourself.

The only reason to own if your not going to rent for an ROI IMHO is because you just have to go to Maui during President's week or something else high end during prime time. I use that example because that is what I became obsessed with and had to experience.  Renting high end during prime time is the biggest fish of them all and cost a big premium to rent from a 3rd party or Marriott so that it what compelled me to own so I could save the big premium.

I believe this is true to this day in my experience so if you were to say I NEED Aruba during spring break and plan on going every year at that time that is where I would say you're better off buying a resale unit.      

Also I am a weeks owner but did sign up for the DC basically for a bunch of points and the free 4 night HHI encore stay and I tried to rent off of VPE and had great success one time but then the other 2 times couldn't find someone who had points available.

*Am I wrong and renting excess points is successful 90% of the time or is it 50/50?     *


----------



## davidvel

Quilter said:


> Who knows it's real?
> 
> TUG sure would be a fine place for a new salesperson to cut their teeth on all the possible debates they'll be getting during a sales presentation.   Every angled covered in just one thread.


Or put another way, how many people use their full name in their username on TUG?


----------



## Quilter

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> Wow, this is an interesting thread -- alot of information going on here.
> 
> To the OP -- welcome to TUG and to Marriott, I believe both will enrich your life immensely as timeshares have changed the way I vacation and the family time is terrific.  We found timeshares when my kids were young (5,3,1) and we've taken over 60 vacations/long weekends over the last 10 years, the vast majority with timeshares.  We've been many places, with many more to go, and the memories are priceless.  It sounds like you are a quantitative person and I think you will come to enjoy maximizing the opportunities presented by Marriott (and perhaps one day, other timeshare systems).
> 
> Your 4,000 points are an excellent base from which to book future vacations, and renting points from others allows you to leverage your base significantly.  You don't need to buy more points, and once you find a favorite property (Grande Ocean, Maui Ocean Club, Ko Olina, Aruba Ocean Club), you may find you should buy a full week cheaply and inexpensively and use your points to extend those trips.  Fasttr did this, starting with points, and then buying (at least) one week at Grande Ocean.
> 
> I like MoxJo's strategy of buying more than you can personally use, and then renting the extra's to pay the MFs for everything.  I own far more of these things than I use, but I like the interplay of the different systems/fixed weeks/high quality trading weeks where I can do most things I want.   This does assume that your mind enjoys the game of maximizing the opportunities, but your quantitative approach does suggest it.   I don't view my timeshares as an investment -- other than an investment in my family, which is well worth that.
> 
> Good luck with this purchase, and enjoy your time here on TUG.  There is a wealth of wisdom that goes far beyond timeshares here, as you interact with strangers who have life experiences and wisdom that can be invaluable.  I credit JME with a fabulous post on the Time Value of Money -- and timeshares.  I included the link below (I couldn't embed?) -- and it has pearls of wisdom that are important for us, especially when we have young children.
> 
> [ 2014 ] Buy a Grande Ocean week....or just keep renting??
> 
> Welcome again, and please ask any and all questions!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Greg your post is so nice.

When I started reading it I did wonder. . ."is he being serious or is he tongue in cheek saying how much time investment this purchase is going to cost?   I'm still not sure but I'm going to run with the understanding that everything you said is what I've heard you repeat again and again about enjoying these vacations with your family.   With that I can conclude that you'd like to see someone else have such good opportunities with their young and growing family.  

Greg, don't you agree though that there is a considerable time investment even if you purchase a handful of points and expect to reserve the 4 and 5 night reservation during peak times?   Just look at the time invested in this thread.   I've invested a significant time in reading it.   Then it comes to mind during the day even when I'm not cruising TUG.   When those thoughts subside I'm wondering if any inventory has opened in the 60 day window.   Or if my daughter will be able to join us on the nice lounges at Crystal Shores.   

How many times did I log in to the owners site just today?   Oh, I don't know.   Stupid site knocks you off so quick.   And then you get the insulting pop-up that your session was timed out.   I know that already!   I know I called once.   Got off the call and called right back to see if another agent could do better than the first.   She did (although she filled empty air space with the game of 20 questions and was driving me nuts). Her "So how's the weather in . . . ahhh Michigan?"  Me "You found that inventory at Monarch yet?" Her "My computer's running slow."  They're always running slow.    I'm embarrassed to say how long it took me tonight to go over aaaaagainnn my transferred trust points, transferred elected points, elected points, banked elected points, transferred trust points in holding, transferred elected points in holding.   I've got my notes so I'm ready for tomorrows call.

With that said I've got to further say I think we got into the system at the right time.   Wish it could have been earlier when the kids were younger.   I see families like yours enjoying their time together.   Similar to memories at the lake cottage.   

My final conclusion is that if you don't want to spend the time, don't sign on the line.


----------



## Quilter

davidvel said:


> Or put another way, how many people use their full name in their username on TUG?



I poked his name in a google search.   Some interesting characters popped up.   Not such an uncommon name.   David Vel came up with a similar result.


----------



## JIMinNC

GoldenVIKE said:


> Very well said, I'm with you 100% on this.  Your trepidation about P2P is multiplied for us who have multiple young kids and sometimes family traveling too.  Imagine flying 6 people down to some island and then finding out you have no room!  I'm glad to hear that renting points is as fast and seamless as it is.  It sounds like a very nice option.  We NEED 2/3 bedroom places, so while the direction I'm leaning seems to be changing by the hour lately, at this point perhaps we'll go with a limited resale DC package, and augment through renting points, until we have some experience under our belt, and then we can either buy more points or buy a week somewhere.  Ask me again tomorrow and I'll have a different plan



I think that's a smart approach. Until you know exactly what you want, rescind and figure it all out. Also, starting small is what we did as well.

We have owned a timeshare since 1999, so I knew about TUG long ago. So when we decided to get rid of our old timeshare and buy into the Marriott program in 2014, I thoroughly researched and posted questions on this Marriott forum before we even went to talk to the sales people. By the time we got serious, I knew there were only two options we would consider, 1) a resale DC Points package from a third-party broker, or 2) a Hybrid bundle of a Marriott resale week and matching DC Points from Marriott. We decided on option 2 because, at that time, the price for resale points ($4/point or so), plus the Marriott activation fees ($2/point) totaled about $6 or so per point. The bundle package from Marriott of an enrolled Barony Beach Club week plus matching DC Points wound up averaging out to about $6.95/point. So we paid about $1 per point more, but we got a week in addition to the points, allowing us to play in both the DC Points system AND the legacy weeks system at our option. The first two ownership years - 2015 and 2016 - we elected the Barony week for DC Points, and rented a few more, to give us enough points to get some experience with the Points system. For 2017, we opted to try an Interval International trade with the Silver Barony week, and were successful in getting the September week at Grande Ocean that I mentioned in an earlier post above. We'll probably opt to trade weeks again in 2018 since Easter week falls at the end of Silver season next year, and if we can book that week to trade, we should have some really good trade power to work with. So we were willing to pay a little bit more to get the option to use Points *OR* Weeks. Also, by buying from Marriott instead of resale points, we had a little more future protection if Marriott would ever opt to change the rules and restrict what you can do with third-party resale Points. Not sure if that's a significant risk or not, but it was an extra bonus that by buying from Marriott it was much less likely that we would be impacted by a negative policy change designed to make resale Points less attractive or useable.

We have one kid about to finish college later this year and another ready to start college next fall, so as we enter empty nest phase, we're continually evaluating when and if we need more points or weeks. We love Maui, so buying a resale every other year unit there might be an option, we may consider another Hybrid Bundle if we can find one that works for us, or possibly buy a package of third-party resale Points. We would love to get to 7000 points so we can book short stays 12 and 13 months out, but need to find the most economical way to get there. We're also thinking about a vacation home/condo in Hilton Head or somewhere else along the South Carolina coast so we can use that whenever we want (and take our dog with us), and save the Marriott Points/weeks for more distant trips.

Learn as much as you can before you buy - and realize that, as others have said, your vacations will change as your children get older. When ours became teenagers, they sorta lost interest in family vacations unless they could bring friends along, so that changed the places we traveled - Hawaii was out and Hilton Head (4 hours each way by car) was in. As they get older and start their own families, it will likely change again.


----------



## Quilter

Joe and David don't you know it's past 1 a.m.?   What are you doing on TUG?


----------



## MOXJO7282

Actually I'm doing my son's laundry for our trip to London Friday.  His mom is looking after her sick father so I'm mr. mom this week. Actually for the last few months as my wife is the truly devoted daughter dealing with her dad. I'm also a night owl and work out of my home professionally so 2am-7am are often my sleeping hours.


----------



## JIMinNC

MOXJO7282 said:


> You're overly concerned about the P2P renting as there are many reputable owners that would provide you ample proof they are legit that you can confirm very easily.   I'm not saying it because I'm one of them it's just a fact.
> 
> I do always say either buy more than one and rent the extra for an ROI or don't buy any and just rent from owners like me because there are just so many owners renting it is very easy to find a reputable owner and a good price so there really isn't a need to lay out big bucks to own something yourself.
> 
> The only reason to own if your not going to rent for an ROI IMHO is because you just have to go to Maui during President's week or something else high end during prime time. I use that example because that is what I became obsessed with and had to experience.  Renting high end during prime time is the biggest fish of them all and cost a big premium to rent from a 3rd party or Marriott so that it what compelled me to own so I could save the big premium.
> 
> I believe this is true to this day in my experience so if you were to say I NEED Aruba during spring break and plan on going every year at that time that is where I would say you're better off buying a resale unit.
> 
> Also I am a weeks owner but did sign up for the DC basically for a bunch of points and the free 4 night HHI encore stay and I tried to rent off of VPE and had great success one time but then the other 2 times couldn't find someone who had points available.
> 
> *Am I wrong and renting excess points is successful 90% of the time or is it 50/50?     *



As someone who is also not particularly comfortable with P2P transactions, let me offer one counter-point to this argument...

I agree that if I was dealing with someone like you who I could trust and I knew that you would always (or almost always) have what I wanted, then going the P2P route would be much less stressful. We would establish the trust and the business relationship would be built. But the problem is, you *might* have what I need, but then you might not. If I'm looking for a June week in Maui and you have it... great... it works. But if I'm looking for a March week at Crystal Shores and you don't have that for rent, then I have to go find someone else that does - then I'm back to dealing with someone I have no history with and no idea if they really know what they are doing - so the stress level of a P2P rental is back in play.

The advantage of booking with my own points (or weeks) is that I have one source (Marriott Vacation Club) that is much more likely than any single P2P seller to have something that I can use for the trip that I want to take.


----------



## MOXJO7282

JIMinNC said:


> As someone who is also not particularly comfortable with P2P transactions, let me offer one counter-point to this argument...
> 
> I agree that if I was dealing with someone like you who I could trust and I knew that you would always (or almost always) have what I wanted, then going the P2P route would be much less stressful. We would establish the trust and the business relationship would be built. But the problem is, you *might* have what I need, but then you might not. If I'm looking for a June week in Maui and you have it... great... it works. But if I'm looking for a March week at Crystal Shores and you don't have that for rent, then I have to go find someone else that does - then I'm back to dealing with someone I have no history with and no idea if they really know what they are doing - so the stress level of a P2P rental is back in play.
> 
> The advantage of booking with my own points (or weeks) is that I have one source (Marriott Vacation Club) that is much more likely than any single P2P seller to have something that I can use for the trip that I want to take.


I do understand the stress free approach. I've been doing what i do for so long maybe i make it easier then it is. The good news is we're all taking these great vacations. When the time comes to look back and reflect us TUGGERS at least will look back on the priceless memories and forget that at one time almost all of us bought from the Dev and paid the premium.  At least we can say we got a premium product that created priceless memories.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Quilter said:


> I poked his name in a google search.   Some interesting characters popped up.   Not such an uncommon name.   David Vel came up with a similar result.



How many were 36? I contacted the OP directly through another channel and he acknowledged the thread. We exchanged a couple words. 

I think we as tuggers are so skeptical that when a post pops up like this we have a difficult time believing it's real.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

MOXJO7282 said:


> Am I wrong and renting excess points is successful 90% of the time or is it 50/50?



I'm interested in this too.  I guess I took it at face value the comment that it's easy to rent excess points on VPE.  Is the process of doing that fraught will a bunch of uncertainty and challenge?  Or are owners renting out their DP points pretty plentiful?


----------



## Saintsfanfl

MOXJO7282 said:


> You're overly concerned about the P2P renting as there are many reputable owners that would provide you ample proof they are legit that you can confirm very easily.   I'm not saying it because I'm one of them it's just a fact.



This truth has to come with an asterisk. Can the owner/landlord deposit the unit later, even unintentionally, which would cancel the reservation? Could the owner change the name on the reservation later? I'm not saying these things happen often but the fact that it's a possibility is unsettling for many people.  A renter has to pay up front and has zero control.

There was a post only a couple weeks ago of an owner who rented a Wyndham reservation through a broker and after confirmation Wyndham canceled it and there was no way to get the reservation back for the renter. It can happen.

I'm assuming this caveat can't happen with points since they are transferred directly to your account, assuming there is a points account to transfer to.


----------



## Fasttr

MOXJO7282 said:


> *Am I wrong and renting excess points is successful 90% of the time or is it 50/50?     *





GoldenVIKE said:


> I'm interested in this too.  I guess I took it at face value the comment that it's easy to rent excess points on VPE.  Is the process of doing that fraught will a bunch of uncertainty and challenge?  Or are owners renting out their DP points pretty plentiful?


I have rented a slew of points over the past few years and have never had a problem easily finding them.  That said, I am usually renting them during the year prior to their Use Year (e.g renting 2018 points in 2017) as I figure how many points I am going to need, rent them, and then am ready for when the ressie window opens up to book what I seek.  That far out, there are always Mega Points Owners like TimG and jake88 who are always there renting hundreds of thousands of points (I have rented from both of them), and others who come and go at various times (I have rented from several others as well), but I have never had a problem finding points to rent at a reasonable rate.  That said, if you leave things to the last minute for a last minute reservation (e.g. I want to rent points today to book a ressie 30 days out), it could prove more challenging as you are at the mercy of who has current year points for rent right then and there.  Oftentimes, that's not a problem, but occasionally, especially later in a Use Year, available points for the current year become more scarce.      

Some who seek points go on there and post an "I need points" post and hope somebody will come to them.  I have always just reached out to the folks with "Points for Rent" listings in the Classifieds and have always had success striking a deal pretty quickly.  Longest was likely within a day....shortest from initial contact to having points in my account was minutes.  It just depends on how quickly emails or private messages get responded to....on both ends of the transaction. 

Oddly enough, if you look at the classifieds right now, there are only a handful of listings, and most if not all are for 2018 points.  Usually there are at two to three times that many listings in the Classifieds.  Renters come and go, but as mentioned, the Mega Points Owners always seem to be there.


----------



## Quilter

MOXJO7282 said:


> Actually I'm doing my son's laundry for our trip to London Friday.  His mom is looking after her sick father so I'm mr. mom this week. Actually for the last few months as my wife is the truly devoted daughter dealing with her dad. I'm also a night owl and work out of my home professionally so 2am-7am are often my sleeping hours.



Awww. . .this tracks so much with the personality I've come to know from you via TUG.  Nice guy.

I heard Dr. Christine Northrup once say it's generally the daughters who end up taking care of their aging parents.  http://www.drnorthrup.com


----------



## Quilter

Saintsfanfl said:


> How many were 36? I contacted the OP directly through another channel and he acknowledged the thread. We exchanged a couple words.
> 
> I think we as tuggers are so skeptical that when a post pops up like this we have a difficult time believing it's real.



We've seen the repeat of this thread go in both directions.   Would you define that as skeptical or conditioned? (No snarkiness intended).   It's either legitimate or a sales guy toying with the group.   I just couldn't help wonder which way this one was going to go.

One thing I was reading from the OP from the outset is he can't be bothered with too much time investment searching for vacations.   Before DC I found managing our 1, then 4, then 6, then 8 weeks a significant investment of time.   After MVC rolled out the DC the flexibility of this system gives so many options that I don't know how you can avoid a significant investment of time.


----------



## Quilter

Saintsfanfl said:


> This truth has to come with an asterisk. Can the owner/landlord deposit the unit later, even unintentionally, which would cancel the reservation? Could the owner change the name on the reservation later? I'm not saying these things happen often but the fact that it's a possibility is unsettling for many people.  A renter has to pay up front and has zero control.



I understand this one.   I'm a renter and have my reservations all charted in a numbers document on my Mac.   But still, I check and double check to make sure I'm not renting something twice.   It's one of those things I'm on edge to avoid.  I always put the renters name on the reservation right away.   That way if I call to add another name, hopefully, Owner Services will be one last checkpoint to avoid a double rental.


----------



## Quilter

GoldenVIKE said:


> IMHO based on the wonderful free education provided by this group, no.  In my initial analysis I felt that paying 2-15% extra up front to go direct through Marriott was worth it just for convenience and to have a contact within the sales team I could go to for advice.  Since then I've learned that (a) while the recurring points have some special value due to benefits associated with various membership levels, the "add on" points are really only worth what it'd cost to rent them ($0.60 or so).  Also, a broker has confirmed the level of bid that can typically be expected to pass FROR.  In short, I overstated the value of buying through Marriott and understated the value of buying resale.  Adjusting for the latest information within the model I had originally created puts the discount for buying resale is 30-45% net of all of the various costs and benefits of each option.  I'll feel bad rescinding, in particular regarding the salesperson who seems like a good guy and did a very nice job.  But at the end of the day, this TUG group has convinced me to rescind our MVCI package to do more research before we ultimately decide to buy a TS or not.



Well this is a pleasant outcome.   You seemed a tough nut to crack.   Not many newbies come so armed with the numbers and percentages and lists.  

It's nice that you're thoughtful enough to care about the salesperson.   But don't let that stop you from rescinding.   We've been in that same situation.  

Did you ever say how you found TUG?


----------



## GregT

jme said:


> Greg, thank you sincerely.
> 
> Per your last paragraph above, I found that old thread and my post to which you were alluding,
> and I appreciate your remembering it. I've linked to it below. It was a a thread about
> investing money independently as opposed to buying/financing timeshares, etc, and what
> money could do over time---a somewhat similar conversation
> regarding the financial analyses and "what to do and how to do it" contained in the current thread,
> and it similarly evoked thoughts about "investments".
> 
> After re-reading my thoughts back in August of 2014, I can only say that for me, it's truer today than ever before. My kids are out on their own, but I see clearer than ever that the times, i.e. "moments in time", we shared together, especially on vacations courtesy of Marriott, were worth far more in this life than anything I could ever buy, realize through investment gain (instead of vacations), or obtain by any other method.
> 
> "Priceless" would be the trite old cliche, but I cannot come up with a better word or description than that. And that word means simply that there is no sum of money, regardless of the amount, that could ever begin to approach the value of something obtained. What would anyone take as a substitute for precious moments with their children? Say, for example a moment that the whole family remembers and subsequently bursts into laughter----something spontaneous that happened on vacation---- or maybe another completely different moment that instead causes everyone to well up and shed tears as they retell it. Could have been a special day for everyone, or maybe just a brief moment shared by only two, but regardless, it became seared into the memories and into the hearts. I have many of those, but then I'm a sentimental guy, and I hold onto such things tenaciously. Family vacations offered more opportunity for those moments, hence the value.
> 
> The more wonderful memories we have, the richer our lives become. As we get older, maybe memories will be all we have to cling to.
> Timesharing has facilitated that to a significant degree. Growing up, I didn't have a lot of travel memories involving family, so I was determined to change that.
> 
> So contrary to my parents' practices, I decided to opt for planned vacations---- to "go and do"---- and that is, together as a family,
> and to repeat often.
> I might have been going against the old sage advice, but my motto has always been "Don't ever underestimate the QUANTITY of time together", as many have always touted simply the quality of time together. I never bought into that.
> Both are important, but I hold quantity in very high regard. Timesharing allowed for the quantity, and luckily also added the quality. When all is said and done, it doesn't really matter how anyone does it, though, it's just important to do it. If it's affordable and it appeals to anyone, go for it. We have our way and it worked out well.
> 
> Anyway, here it is......my thoughts as expressed in August of 2014 in the following thread, specifically post #23:
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...eek-or-just-keep-renting.216143/#post-1667332
> 
> To this day, Greg, I sincerely appreciate your reply immediately following that post.... I think it must have rung true for you too.
> My hope back then (and still is now) was that maybe I could inspire someone out there to take a chance on putting their finger down on a calendar, or on a map, and say, "OK, this will be the day or place we will be going to spend time together", and then devising a method whereby they could do it....... then and again, and again.
> 
> Looking back on how we did it, I have no regrets. My wife says the same over and over in many different ways, and it's obvious that everything we have done, and everything we have seen "all together as a family", has not only been remembered but cherished. Nothing else would have been as valuable a substitute. As a matter of fact, it probably would never have happened at all. To this day the children thank me often for "whatever it was" that caused that little spark in the "Aha moment" two decades ago
> when I suddenly realized "Yes, we can do this".
> It literally changed our lives, and set up the bank into which we have repeatedly placed memory upon special memory.
> 
> There is no family conversation so precious as the one which begins, "Remember when....."
> 
> Like I said in that old post, "there are investments and there are investments".





Thank you for the comments, they do resonate very much!  I thought of them when I was at WKORV and floating in the ocean with Cassie -- I'd persuaded her to come float on the tube in the ocean, and getting individual time with a teen daughter is so difficult.  We floated for over an hour and talked about her goals, her fears (and my goals and my fears).  She will still bring it up from time to time so it wasn't just me.   These are special days....

I hope you are well, and that our paths cross in Hilton Head (or Maui) one of these days!

Best,

Greg


----------



## JIMinNC

Fasttr said:


> Oddly enough, if you look at the classifieds right now, there are only a handful of listings, and most if not all are for 2018 points.  Usually there are at two to three times that many listings in the Classifieds.  Renters come and go, but as mentioned, the Mega Points Owners always seem to be there.



I haven't been in the market for points for awhile since our travel opportunities have been limited recently by our high school senior's busy schedule, but when I check-in at VPE from time to time just to look around, I've noted the same thing - the number of listings seems to have dropped off precipitously. I recall when I first started looking at VPE in 2014-2015 there would often be 15-20 or more listings. It seems like there's been a slow decline in the last year or so, and lately the numbers have been less than 10 every time I've looked. The current four listings seem to be a new low. 

Am I just missing the busy times (since I admittedly don't check-in there very often) or has there indeed been a decline? Any explanation for this?


----------



## GoldenVIKE

Quilter said:


> Well this is a pleasant outcome.   You seemed a tough nut to crack.   Not many newbies come so armed with the numbers and percentages and lists.
> 
> It's nice that you're thoughtful enough to care about the salesperson.   But don't let that stop you from rescinding.   We've been in that same situation.
> 
> Did you ever say how you found TUG?



So here's where we've landed after all of the research, advice, frustration, drama, additional research, phone calls, cancellations, etc...

We did rescind the MVCI direct offer, and they came back with a counter to add on a traditional week for a "hybrid" or "bundle" package.  One of our aims was to get to the Executive level anyway (13-mo bookings, access to the Homes, etc) so this was very interesting.  The add-on has a DC conversion value of 3,825 and costs $10,700 ($2.80/pt) plus $1,519 annual MF ($.40/pt).  We don't intend to actually use this week ever, so it doesn't really matter where it is. (It's Ocean Pointe though)

So when you roll this into the 4,000 pt package we bought initially, the net deal works out to: 7,825 points for $5.96/pt if you value the 8,000 incentive points at $1.00 ($6.31/pt if you value them at $.65 as some on this thread seem to).

Based on what I was told by a very helpful, knowledgable, and experienced broker of MVCI resales, currently at 4000-7000 points you can expect to pay between $5.50-$6.00/pt after conversion fees closing costs etc.  But for buyers that have recently been to a presentation, I'm told MVCI will block you via ROFR 6-7 times before a deal at that level goes through.  Also there's apparently a new policy at MVCI where resale points are subject to tighter booking windows than points purchased direct.  It's difficult to verify if this last point is true or not, but given that this is one of the more important aspects of our decision, I don't want to risk it.  So while I get that 75% of the people on this thead may not have done this deal, it's going to work great for our family. as the kids grow up and the timing of our trips and flexibility needed in booking are likely to change.

It's not lost on me that this posting literally saved us $30,000 vs. what we'd have paid for the 7,000 pt ownership level on our own.  The knowledge and tips this group provided led to us cancelling, and gave me enough familiarity with the concept of these hybrid/bundle packages to know they're worth considering as a vehicle for a better overall deal.  I'd love to buy those of you that helped with this a drink and may reach out to let you know when and where our next trip is for that!

To pay this forward for future potential owners considering MVCI, I'll update one of the initial charts I provided that compares the difference in cost between direct vs. resale:

ValBonus Save@$3.50 Save@$3.75 Save@$4.00
$0.60:     -11.5% -7.6% -3.7%
$0.80:     -8.6% -4.6% *-0.5% *
$1.00:     -5.6% *-1.4%* 2.8%
$1.20:     *-2.3%* 2.1% 6.4%
$1.40:     1.3% 5.8% 10.3%
$1.60:     5.1% 9.8% 14.4%
$1.80:     9.2% 14.1% 18.9%
$2.00:     13.6% 18.7% 23.7%

I've highlighted above the approximate break-even points based on two variables (a) what your resale gross cost per point is across the columns in the top row, and (b) how much you value incentive points (the "free vacations") MVCI will give you as represented by the far left column.   For us, the potential savings for going resale wasn't worth it, but IF YOU HAVENT RECENTLY BEEN ON AN MVCI PRESENTATION TRIP THEN RESALE WOULD BE WORTH STRONGLY CONSIDERING!  

Also, the two things to be sure to ask for if you do decide to go direct are:
1. A hybrid (a.k.a. "bundle") package with a week somewhere that's convertible to DC points.  I had specifically asked about this in person and they basically shot it down, so be persistent.  The process is pretty annoying but at the end of the day the cost per point you get on the bundled portion can be around $2.50 to $3.50 per point (as in my example above), so you truly can't afford not to do this if you're going to go direct.
2. The $1,750 discount for booking an extra night with your presentation trip.


----------



## Fasttr

GoldenVIKE said:


> It's not lost on me that this posting literally saved us $30,000 vs. what we'd have paid for the 7,000 pt ownership level on our own.


Or looking at it from a different perspective....starting this thread cost you an additional $10,700 in upfront costs, plus $1,500 in annual fees more than if you would have never posted it at all.  ;-)

In any event.....you sound at peace with your final deal and now hopefully you can get on to enjoying some great family vacations!!


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## Saintsfanfl

MVCI has never treated resale weeks differently and never will treat resale points differently for booking windows. Marriott prides themselves on NOT being Westgate. Unfortunately MVCI has no direct control over the verbal lies that their salespeople might spin.

That said, I don't think your deal is a bad one but I'm not a points expert. There is obviously huge value on having an enrolled week which is impossible to get without a hybrid package.

Your week is a Silver Season Ocean Front. I've owned several of those. I don't know about the conversion but it's a fantastic week to own by itself. If Marriott did it over most of Silver season would be Platinum. You may never stay there but look up how many DC points it would cost to book thanksgiving week Ocean front. Look at the upfront buy-in and annual fee if you had those points. I think the last time I looked it was something like $50k up front and over $3k annual fee but I might be off. You won't get the same points value though because they have to blend it with the lower demand sept weeks but still probably not bad.

I got into timesharing right after the enrolled week cutoff so I missed the window. Someday I may buy some points.


----------



## catharsis

Discuss other weeks with your marriott sales report to try to get the lowest possible maintenance fee per point on your resale week. It's a more important long term metric than price per point.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Saintsfanfl

Fasttr said:


> Or looking at it from a different perspective....starting this thread cost you an additional $10,700 in upfront costs, plus $1,500 in annual fees more than if you would have never posted it at all.  ;-)
> 
> In any event.....you sound at peace with your final deal and now hopefully you can get on to enjoying some great family vacations!!



This is so true. Honestly the prudent thing to do is rescind and enter a "cool off" period and then decide what you really want. They will always sell you the deal and prices on the resale weeks included in hybrid continue to drop. That week for $10,700 was $12,100 a couple years ago. Also note that the saleman earns 40% commission on that week although the only way to have points conversion ability is to pay those prices.


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## Saintsfanfl

catharsis said:


> Discuss other weeks with your marriott sales report to try to get the lowest possible maintenance fee per point on your resale week. It's a more important long term metric than price per point.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



Unfortunately you can't choose any week you want. It has to be a week that generates 4,000 points or less or you have to buy more points. I believe some of the best weeks generate more than 4,000 points. Perhaps there is an EOY. I think GregT had a chart that shows every week but not sure if it's current.


----------



## Fasttr

Saintsfanfl said:


> Unfortunately you can't choose any week you want. It has to be a week that generates 4,000 points or less or you have to buy more points. I believe some of the best weeks generate more than 4,000 points. Perhaps there is an EOY. I think GregT had a chart that shows every week but not sure if it's current.


I think StevenTing took that over.  Its in the sig line of any of his posts.
Here is a link.... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10fKEZf0mRljXBSDtGmguovIlHjggivemuPWYpnkSaXg/edit


----------



## GoldenVIKE

Fasttr said:


> I think StevenTing took that over.  Its in the sig line of any of his posts.
> Here is a link.... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10fKEZf0mRljXBSDtGmguovIlHjggivemuPWYpnkSaXg/edit



Wow this is awesome.  This must be the conversion value for every property?  The inventory that Marriott is currently reselling from are these (so I'm told):

FIRST TIME BUYER Election Price 2017
Resort/Inventory Value Maint
S Ridge Plat ((110K EY)) L/O *special*  3075 $10,700 $1,486
Barony Beach gold OS 100k  3,225 $10,800 $1,294
O Pointe Silver 2 Bed OS 90K L/O  3050 $8,500 $1,512
Grande Ocean Gold OS  100K  3325 $12,800 $1,387
Newport Plat ((110K EY)) 3475 $14,300 $1,450
K B Club 1 bed OF ((125K EY)) L/O  3375 $11,300 $1,683
Grande vista Plat 3 bed L/O 125K  3725 $12,600 $1,683
Grande Ocean Gold OF 100K  3850 $16,900 $1,387
O Pointe Silver 2 bed OF 90K L/O  3825 $10,700 $1,519
Kauai Bea 2 bed OV ((125K EY)) L/O (1) 4225 $14,000 $1,852
Ocean pointe Plat 2 bed OS 110k L/O  4325 $15,100 $1,608
Mountainside Plat ((125K EY )) L/O (1) 5350 $24,900 $1,316
Ocean Pointe Plat 2 bed OF 110K L/O  5375 $18,800 $1,577

As Saintsfanfl notes you can't buy a higher DC points election value than your package has in standard points - so to buy one of the final two options on the list which are both good values would require you end up with a 5,500 point package and a total of 10,875ish points.  That'd be a fun package to own especially if you're retired and can travel a lot, but at this point for us it'd be starting to border on more vacationing horsepower than we need.


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## davidvel

Now this has become downright hilarious.


> The inventory that Marriott is currently reselling from are these *(so I'm told)*


Lots of good detailed inside information from a "novice" whose original post dropped the name of a Marriott salesperson, said he was going through with the deal a few days after not receiving any advice to do so, only to claim he rescinded after being challenged on the value, then to state he's going through with it and he paid over 10,000 more which saved him 30,000.

Fun fact: seadoc is a CPA.


----------



## GregT

GoldenVIKE,

Where do you live?   Ocean Pointe is a decent property as a points generator and is a good choice if you are close enough to Florida to actually use that property in the season you've purchased (Silver).   One other thing to consider is switching to Grande Ocean Gold OF or OS -- that's a great property and the Gold season is desirable in its own right.  I think that's where Fasttr bought and we visited Grande Ocean in April 2015 and think it is terrific.  Hilton Head may be a little closer to you than Ocean Pointe, again depending on where you live, and Gold Season will hold its value better than Silver Season if/when you some day dispose of this property.  I've sold a number of weeks also (usually because I'm buying a different week ) so don't discount that there is a monopoly component to this hobby.  Platinum and Gold weeks hold their value better (but they still depreciate too).     Newport Coast Platinum and Grande Vista 3BR Platinum may also be worth considering, if you are closer to West Coast, or some day enter into the II  trading game.

Best,

Greg


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## Saintsfanfl

davidvel said:


> Now this has become downright hilarious.
> 
> Lots of good detailed inside information from a "novice" whose original post dropped the name of a Marriott salesperson, said he was going through with the deal a few days after not receiving any advice to do so, only to claim he rescinded after being challenged on the value, then to state he's going through with it and he paid over 10,000 more which saved him 30,000.
> 
> Fun fact: seadoc is a CPA.



Would it not be completely normal to ask the salesperson what hybrid resale weeks are possible? Especially when I told him to make sure he chooses a good week for a better ratio? The salespeople generally always push a week that is close to the points that you are buying. So if you are buying the minimum they will push HHI Bronze without thinking twice. A normal customer might not think twice about it but once you get on TUG and are told "don't blindly take the week they offer" you are going to inquire on the options.

The OP is not seadoc (or a CPA).


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## jeepie

Of course. You can also google "Marriott vacation club Resales" and easily find the current listings (perhaps it is not completely current, but it is at least close). They also list the phone number, so you can call and make sure you have up-to-date information. This list doesn't include the DC points value, but you can ask. They should be willing to tailor a bundle for you. I am currently in escrow for a specific bundle, so I know this to be true.


Saintsfanfl said:


> Would it not be completely normal to ask the salesperson what hybrid resale weeks are possible? Especially when I told him to make sure he chooses a good week for a better ratio? The salespeople generally always push a week that is close to the points that you are buying. So if you are buying the minimum they will push HHI Bronze without thinking twice. A normal customer might not think twice about it but once you get on TUG and are told "don't blindly take the week they offer" you are going to inquire on the options.


Cheers.


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## BocaBoy

Why do so many people think someone who does his homework is a Marriott salesperson in disguise?  There are probably some here who still think I am.  I personally am very impressed with the way the OP approached this, and his result seems pretty good too, provided there is not a different week he would rather have.  (My prejudice is showing here:  I am one of the few (apparently) TUGGERs who rank Ocean Pointe in the  bottom 20% of the 30 MVCI resorts we have been to.)


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## SueDonJ

BocaBoy said:


> Why do so many people think someone who does his homework is a Marriott salesperson in disguise?  There are probably some here who still think I am.  I personally am very impressed with the way the OP approached this, and his result seems pretty good too, provided there is not a different week he would rather have.  (My prejudice is showing here:  I am one of the few (apparently) TUGGERs who rank Ocean Pointe in the  bottom 20% of the 30 MVCI resorts we have been to.)



I don't get it either.  And since it's been questioned, as a moderator I'm not seeing anything that supports this new poster being a new incantation of a previous poster OR a Marriott sales rep.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

I'm flattered that a lot of folks think that my basic financial analysis which was done w/ a 2-tab spreadsheet, indicates I have some insider level of understanding of a complex industry that just a week ago I knew nothing about.  I did major in Finance and work in the Insurance industry managing some products that require I work closely with actuaries and closely monitor a wide array of interconnected numbers and metrics.  So I suppose my understanding of numbers and analytics is more advanced that most.  The insider info about the available inventory came from a spreadsheet provided by my MVCI salesperson.  The insider info about what's available on the resale market came from a renowned broker of TS resales who is based in FL and has written a lot of articles and done TV interviews on the topic.

With regards to MVCI, I have no love lost for their sales process.  We were not offered the most competitive package out of the gate, and only after spending now at least a dozen of hours doing research and analysis, and rescinding the original contract did they offer a competitive deal.  My sales person really does seem to be a good guy, but I'll say that I did have a terrible experience with the sales manager.  The day after we signed up for our package I went back to personally inquire about a hybrid package (based on advice on here) and a guy that should have been cast on the Sopranos declined to offer such a package after I talked with him for about 15-20 minutes and after he called me "bro" about 50 times.  Only after I rescinded did they offer the hybrid deal.  The MVCI sales process is awful (as I suppose most of the TS industry sales processes likely are?) and would likely be impossible to navigate by most novices.  I accomplished my objective by posting on here through getting the sound and friendly advice from so many of you experts.  I truly can't thank you enough.  I hope that this thread may live on as a means to guide future potential MVCI owners by shining a light of transparency on their confusing sales process.


----------



## SueDonJ

jeepie said:


> Of course. You can also google "Marriott vacation club Resales" and easily find the current listings (perhaps it is not completely current, but it is at least close). They also list the phone number, so you can call and make sure you have up-to-date information. This list doesn't include the DC points value, but you can ask. They should be willing to tailor a bundle for you. I am currently in escrow for a specific bundle, so I know this to be true.
> 
> Cheers.



No need to google, here's the link to Marriott Resales Operations.  Click on the "Buy Weeks" tab to search their available inventory, and use the contact information there to discuss Bundle Packages.  It is not necessary to deal with an onsite sales rep in order to get these packages.

GoldenVIKE, in your shoes I would still be rescinding and taking a little bit more time to get answers from those of us who own and use Marriott products.  At least two things that your sales rep is saying are not true now:  _"I'm told MVCI will block you via ROFR 6-7 times before a deal at that level goes through. Also there's apparently a new policy at MVCI where resale points are subject to tighter booking windows than points purchased direct."_  What is true is that ROFR sometimes has no rhyme or reason; we certainly haven't noticed a pattern of 6-7 or any other set number of times ROFR will be executed.  And MVW can't implement a "new policy" of restricting resale Points in the manner suggested to you without substantially amending the Destination Club governing documents.

I agree with the others who think there's more value - in purchase price, usage options and maintenance fee costs - in a Bundle Package, and, that it's important to select a Weeks component that will work with your anticipated usage.

[eta] GoldenVIKE, one other thing.  Using your real name as a TUG Username leaves you open to spam bots and other bad internet things.  You may want to review this info:  [How to] Change your BBS Username.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

SueDonJ said:


> No need to google, here's the link to Marriott Resales Operations.  Click on the "Buy Weeks" tab to search their available inventory, and use the contact information there to discuss Bundle Packages.  It is not necessary to deal with an onsite sales rep in order to get these packages.
> 
> GoldenVIKE, in your shoes I would still be rescinding and taking a little bit more time to get answers from those of us who own and use Marriott products.  At least two things that your sales rep is saying are not true now:  _"I'm told MVCI will block you via ROFR 6-7 times before a deal at that level goes through. Also there's apparently a new policy at MVCI where resale points are subject to tighter booking windows than points purchased direct."_  What is true is that ROFR sometimes has no rhyme or reason; we certainly haven't noticed a pattern of 6-7 or any other set number of times ROFR will be executed.  And MVW can't implement a "new policy" of restricting resale Points in the manner suggested to you without substantially amending the Destination Club governing documents.
> 
> I agree with the others who think there's more value - in purchase price, usage options and maintenance fee costs - in a Bundle Package, and, that it's important to select a Weeks component that will work with your anticipated usage.
> 
> [eta] GoldenVIKE, one other thing.  Using your real name as a TUG Username leaves you open to spam bots and other bad internet things.  You may want to review this info:  [How to] Change your BBS Username.



Thanks I wasn't aware that the name i was entering was the name that would display.  I'll fix this now!  The thing above about the 6-7 ROFR blocks came from a broker, not from MVCI.  In any event, we're pretty comfortable with where we've landed and while I've obviously put a ton of time into this over the past several days, I'm about to the point I'd like to be done to go back to focusing on other life priorities.  Thanks again!!!


----------



## JIMinNC

BocaBoy said:


> Why do so many people think someone who does his homework is a Marriott salesperson in disguise?  There are probably some here who still think I am.  I personally am very impressed with the way the OP approached this, and his result seems pretty good too, provided there is not a different week he would rather have.  (My prejudice is showing here:  I am one of the few (apparently) TUGGERs who rank Ocean Pointe in the  bottom 20% of the 30 MVCI resorts we have been to.)



I agree. I was accused of the same thing a year or so ago. 

I wasn't going to mention this, but since it came up again, it occurred to me the other day that there is a certain irony in the fact that in the same thread where we had the arguments being made that it is perfectly rational to trust someone from the internet to complete what could be a $2000-$3000 or more person-to-person timeshare rental transaction, we also had people unable to trust the simple fact that the OP in this thread is who he says he is and not a Marriott salesperson in disguise. I'm not trying to pass judgement on the validity of either one of those two issues, just the irony that some seem to find it easier to trust a stranger from the internet to complete a big $$$ transaction, than to trust that a person who appears to have done his homework doesn't have some nefarious motive.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

SueDonJ said:


> No need to google, here's the link to Marriott Resales Operations.  Click on the "Buy Weeks" tab to search their available inventory, and use the contact information there to discuss Bundle Packages.  It is not necessary to deal with an onsite sales rep in order to get these packages.



Good point



SueDonJ said:


> [eta] GoldenVIKE, one other thing.  Using your real name as a TUG Username leaves you open to spam bots and other bad internet things.  You may want to review this info:  [How to] Change your BBS Username.



This is good advice GoldenVIKE. It took me 2 minutes to find where you work, live, and pictures of your adorable children. I only looked because I thought you might be in the timeshare business and posting with an agenda. You seem like a nicer person than me and won't step on toes but I had a bad experience after calling out a highly questionable timeshare resale operator here in Florida. I wasn't using my real name but he found my personal details by matching my TUG username to my ebay ID and then finding an old failed ROFR resale contract from one of his former companies. He contacted me and threatened me and since he knew where I lived and I have young children I obviously removed all of my information on him. I can't see you having that problem but it is still better to stay anonymous on a forum that often includes opinions, emotion, and strangers with agendas.


----------



## JIMinNC

catharsis said:


> Discuss other weeks with your marriott sales report to try to get the lowest possible maintenance fee per point on your resale week. It's a more important long term metric than price per point.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



The $0.40 per point maintenance fee in the offer the OP now has on the table is actually pretty attractive. It's $0.13 less than the rate for Trust Points. The Gold Grande Ocean OF would be a bit better at $0.36 for almost the identical points, but that week costs $6,200 more upfront than the Ocean Pointe week. That 4-cent savings equates to about $150/year, meaning it would take about 40 years of maintenance fee savings to offset the higher upfront cost. Purely from a point generation efficiency standpoint, Ocean Pointe sounds like a pretty good deal.


----------



## Fasttr

GoldenVIKE said:


> In any event, we're pretty comfortable with where we've landed and while I've obviously put a ton of time into this over the past several days, I'm about to the point I'd like to be done to go back to focusing on other life priorities.  Thanks again!!!


If you are at peace with the deal, put the $$ thoughts behind you and spend your time, research and energy planning your next vacation.

Not sure if you saw my reach out via private message (called Conversations now in the new bbs system they recently flipped over to), but very early on, shortly after your initial post, I reached out via a Conversation.  Not sure if you never saw it, or did and just had nothing to say in reply, but on the off chance you have not figured out how private Conversations work, click on your name in the upper right corner of the screen, then click Conversations.  Its like a email inbox.  The offer still stands to reach out directly if you have any questions on how to use the system from a points perspective.  Here's to some great vacations!!!!


----------



## cp73

I enjoyed looking at your analysis. You must be in finance or accounting. Here is what I don't like. You are young with a new family and financing. This is the last thing you should be financing. If you have to borrow for this purchase don't do it. This is a luxury item and its value the day after you purchase it will be at about $3.50 per point. Run an analysis which shows a sale in 10 years at $3.00 per point and see how that compares to renting. As others have pointed out this is not a slam dunk system to use. You have to take time and work it. Based on some of your comments I don't believe you will want to take the time to preplan to get the trips you want. You just don't decide you want to go travel in three months to Hawaii. Most trips require long term planning, unless you can drop everything and go without much notice. Rescind while you can.


----------



## JIMinNC

cp73 said:


> I enjoyed looking at your analysis. You must be in finance or accounting. Here is what I don't like. You are young with a new family and financing. This is the last thing you should be financing. If you have to borrow for this purchase don't do it. This is a luxury item and its value the day after you purchase it will be at about $3.50 per point. Run an analysis which shows a sale in 10 years at $3.00 per point and see how that compares to renting. As others have pointed out this is not a slam dunk system to use. You have to take time and work it. Based on some of your comments I don't believe you will want to take the time to preplan to get the trips you want. You just don't decide you want to go travel in three months to Hawaii. Most trips require long term planning, unless you can drop everything and go without much notice. Rescind while you can.



I believe the OP said in an earlier post that the financing was only for short term convenience due to recent relo (he still needs to sell his old house) and for the incentives, not because they had a financial "need" to finance. As I recall, he said the full intent was to pay off in full at the end of the required 18 month holding period (required for incentive).

I agree with your other points that the OP needs to be sure they understand the planning that needs to take place to visit the higher demand locations. While the Points booking process itself is more satisfying and straightforward than the uncertainty and waiting inherent in weeks trading, it's still first-come-first-served, so there is still considerable advance planning required to be ready to pounce when reservation windows open.


----------



## Fasttr

JIMinNC said:


> I agree with your other points that the OP needs to be sure they understand the planning that needs to take place to visit the higher demand locations. While the Points booking process itself is more satisfying and straightforward than the uncertainty and waiting inherent in weeks trading, it's still first-come-first-served, so there is still considerable advance planning required to be ready to pounce when reservation windows open.


To help aid in OP's education on how to use the system....here is a link to MVC's recorded training seminars which may prove helpful.  Focus on the Points Owner Webinar and Enrolled Owner Webinar (as your Ocean Pointe week will be an enrolled week).
https://vacationclub.readytalk.com/?p=r


----------



## BocaBoy

JIMinNC said:


> .....there is a certain irony in the fact that....some seem to find it easier to trust a stranger from the internet to complete a big $$$ transaction, than to trust that a person who appears to have done his homework doesn't have some nefarious motive.


I couldn't agree more......this drives me nuts.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

cp73 said:


> I enjoyed looking at your analysis. You must be in finance or accounting. Here is what I don't like. You are young with a new family and financing. This is the last thing you should be financing. If you have to borrow for this purchase don't do it. This is a luxury item and its value the day after you purchase it will be at about $3.50 per point. Run an analysis which shows a sale in 10 years at $3.00 per point and see how that compares to renting. As others have pointed out this is not a slam dunk system to use. You have to take time and work it. Based on some of your comments I don't believe you will want to take the time to preplan to get the trips you want. You just don't decide you want to go travel in three months to Hawaii. Most trips require long term planning, unless you can drop everything and go without much notice. Rescind while you can.



I'd generally agree with you and would certainly recommend the same to people considering financing luxury purchases.  JIMinNC is right that we just did the financing because the benefits seemed to outweigh the cost.  We have the pleasure of paying 39.6% tax on some of our income so it's all good   Main motivation for all of the analysis is just to ensure that we're not getting ripped off, because this is a big decision and just want to make it once!  I'm sure glad I posted on here because had we not, we would have eventually realized we got swindled.


----------



## SueDonJ

GoldenVIKE, I'm happy to see you've successfully changed your TUG Username.  As you can see many of us are on a comfortable first-name basis but to be on the safe side I've gone through the thread and edited all references to your real name.  If you or anyone else notice any I've missed please don't hesitate to let me know. 

It's now your choice whether or not you want us to be on a first-name basis with you; we'll happily take the cue if you add your name to any of your future posts.  And belatedly, welcome to TUG!


----------



## Quilter

JIMinNC said:


> I agree. I was accused of the same thing a year or so ago.
> 
> I wasn't going to mention this, but since it came up again, it occurred to me the other day that there is a certain irony in the fact that in the same thread where we had the arguments being made that it is perfectly rational to trust someone from the internet to complete what could be a $2000-$3000 or more person-to-person timeshare rental transaction, we also had people unable to trust the simple fact that the OP in this thread is who he says he is and not a Marriott salesperson in disguise. I'm not trying to pass judgement on the validity of either one of those two issues, just the irony that some seem to find it easier to trust a stranger from the internet to complete a big $$$ transaction, than to trust that a person who appears to have done his homework doesn't have some nefarious motive.



Renting doesn't always have to be with a stranger.   And it doesn't have to be a commitment year after year.

Signing on the timeshare line commits you to year after year.   When you get bitten by the timeshare concept you envision your family taking that annual vacation.   The options seem endless and you're just sure your vacation needs will be fulfilled by one of them.

I try to be upfront with my renters that there's an element of trust that needs to be established when dealing through the internet.   For this I provide links to who we are and history to ethical business practices.   When I can't fill the request from my friends I coach them how to find who they will rent from.  

Golden did such a good job running the numbers and talking the talk that it was reasonable to question if he was a salesperson.   The start of the thread sounded more like he was trying to convince us instead of ask questions.   "I got such a good deal.   Didn't  I?  Let me tell you why."   When that failed it morphed into "Well, I finally see the light and I'll rescind."   "But wait!   There's an even better deal through Resale Hybrid."   If you can't sell the idea of convenience through the avenue of straight points then sell the hybrid.

It was the description of the sales dept. that turned my opinion in favor of legitimacy.   So-o-o nauseatingly typical of the sales team.


----------



## JIMinNC

Quilter said:


> Renting doesn't always have to be with a stranger.   And it doesn't have to be a commitment year after year.
> 
> Signing on the timeshare line commits you to year after year.   When you get bitten by the timeshare concept you envision your family taking that annual vacation.   The options seem endless and you're just sure your vacation needs will be fulfilled by one of them.
> 
> I try to be upfront with my renters that there's an element of trust that needs to be established when dealing through the internet.   For this I provide links to who we are and history to ethical business practices.   When I can't fill the request from my friends I coach them how to find who they will rent from.



Yes, renting from someone you know, that you've built a relationship of trust with (either because you've personally met them or have gotten to know them well online in some form) is certainly a transaction that would have considerably less risk than renting from someone who is just a name on Redweek, VRBO, etc. That would be very easy to get comfortable with. But as I noted in post #98, that only really works if I'm traveling to the places where that person owns units that they can rent to me. For other locations, then I'm back to square one looking for someone that has the reservation I need and potentially dealing with someone I don't have any history with. If I only wanted to travel to a handful of destinations, then finding a small group of trusted friends/owners who own units in these places might be a viable low cost solution. It becomes much harder to execute if I want to travel to a wide variety of places.

The advantage of booking with my own points or weeks, is - with adequate advance planning - I can go to MVC and book whatever reservation I might want. A one-stop-shop. Yes, there will be times when even MVC doesn't have what I need, but they certainly have a much larger pool of available inventory than any single owner-renter will have. I really only have to deal with one entity every time I want to travel to an MVC location. It'll cost me more, but it requires a lot less shopping, sleuthing, and validating the legitimacy of an individual owner that I don't know. In the end, I've saved money over what it would cost me to book with cash from the other various one-stop-shops (marriott.com, orbitz.com, expedia.com, etc.) or at minimum, allowed me to book a larger unit/condo for what it would cost me to book a hotel room on those same online sites.

The key to managing the fact that timeshare is a year after year commitment while renting is not, is to make sure you don't buy more points (or weeks) than you know you can use every given year. Then use point rentals to supplement what you own for those times when your account balance falls short. That is why I think the new point-based systems are such an improvement over the old weeks based approach - they offer so many more ways to manage the utilization of what you own. Instead of the old binary "use my week" or "trade my week" choice - we can now book a week, 5 days, or 3 days; we can bank or borrow into other use years to combine points take that "big " trip; if plans change outside of 60 days, we can just cancel the reservation and rebook and not have to worry about lost deposits, re-trades, etc etc. It makes it a lot easier to limit what you buy and not have more than you need or can use.


----------



## dioxide45

GoldenVIKE said:


> We did rescind the MVCI direct offer, and they came back with a counter to add on a traditional week for a "hybrid" or "bundle" package. One of our aims was to get to the Executive level anyway (13-mo bookings, access to the Homes, etc) so this was very interesting. The add-on has a DC conversion value of 3,825 and costs $10,700 ($2.80/pt) plus $1,519 annual MF ($.40/pt). We don't intend to actually use this week ever, so it doesn't really matter where it is. (It's Ocean Pointe though)


The cardinal sin of rescission is talking to the sales staff again regarding your purchase. The idea of being able to recind is getting some time to cool off and learn more about the product and what is all involved in how it works. It seems you have perhaps done a lot of research, but I will tell you that you have hardly scratched the surface. After talking to the sales staff again and them convincing you to buy more, you may have reduced your per point costs, you still ended up spending even more money. However, in the end if you are happy with it then go for it. Don't let hundreds of years of combined Tugger experience stop you.


----------



## Hi I'm new here

GoldenVike,  this thread is bringing back memories of our buying experience.  We were also very impressed with our sales agent. When we got home I wanted to rescind but pride was on the line and we didn't want to let our sales agent down. He was so nice, so articulate and worked very hard for our business.  He shared his personal phone number and told us to call anytime if we had questions or issues. Six months later we had a question and called his office number.  We learned he was no longer at Marriott.  So don't worry too much about the sales person.

Regarding tricks used by timeshare people-  we signed papers in the morning and were still in the excited phase.  While we were at dinner the sales guy left us a lengthy message.  He said a second buyer wanted to buy the exact week we had purchased.  He told us our contract was in force but if we were willing to purchase something else they would give us a "better unit".  I wasn't sure if his story was legit but we had chosen the week based on what we thought was best for the family .  We did not switch. 
We paid cash and purchased.  
Years later a neighbor purchased an off season Ocean Point, the salesman had assured them it was a good purchase and would trade well.   They shared they had received a phone call after signing the contract with another story about a second buyer wanting to purchase what they had. Hmmm, what a coincidence. 
Anyway the neighbors went forward with their purchase. The unit was not strong enough to pull quality  trades.  They were on the old wait list Marriott kept of owners wanting to sell. Marriott eventually offered them a buy back at a poor price, the neighbors declined the offer.  They moved away and I lost track of their timeshare story.


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> The cardinal sin of rescission is talking to the sales staff again regarding your purchase. The idea of being able to recind is getting some time to cool off and learn more about the product and what is all involved in how it works. It seems you have perhaps done a lot of research, but I will tell you that you have hardly scratched the surface. After talking to the sales staff again and them convincing you to buy more, you may have reduced your per point costs, you still ended up spending even more money. However, in the end if you are happy with it then go for it. Don't let hundreds of years of combined Tugger experience stop you.



The typical TUG answer of "rescind, rescind" is absolutely the right advice for the typical new purchaser who comes onto TUG. In this case however, GoldenVIKE is not the typical newbie. He has clearly done his homework, knows what he is looking for, and managed to squeeze out an even better deal - for only $10,000 or so more than his original deal, he will now be Executive status instead of Select. Heck, if I didn't already own what I own, I would take his exact deal myself and walk away happy.

So in this case, I think the "hundreds of years of combined Tugger experience" may not be as relevant to his specific situation. He clearly has the money to do this, it meets his needs, and as developer purchases go, it seems to be a pretty good deal.

When we bought our smaller hybrid bundle back in 2014, we also did our homework prior to the purchase. That didn't stop a number of TUGgers from telling us to rescind as well, even though we bought what we had researched and what we felt would work for us. We haven't regretted it for a minute. I think sometimes people assume that getting the cheapest possible price is the only goal - if that were true everyone would be flying Spirit and Frontier instead of American and Delta.


----------



## Beefnot

What is peculiar about the OP though is the sheer volume of research and analysis he has done, yet has a phobia of applying that same diligence to his vacation planning.  On the other hand, a leopard doesn't tend to change its spots, so although this may be a valid thought in his mind currently, when it comes down to it in practice, he will eventually get just as rabid about maximizing his vacations as he is about maximizing his purchase.  Same as I was when I bought, same as I am with my vacations.

As much as folks on TUG, myself included, like to downtalk those who take more costlier ownership approaches due to convenience concerns (e.g., JIMinNC, SueDonJ), if my disposable income was such that I didn't notice $40k fall out my pockets, I would probably be the same way.  But since I'm not, I maximize my vacation dollar (and apply some of those savings to splurges while on vacation).  Ok well, I'm lying.  Even if I did have money falling out my pockets, I would still probably not go retail.  I get too much of a thrill from saving money.  But at least I envision the scenario where I would be better able to appreciate the pro-retail crowd.


----------



## Beefnot

JIMinNC said:


> I think sometimes people assume that getting the cheapest possible price is the only goal - if that were true everyone would be flying Spirit and Frontier instead of American and Delta.



Setting aside FF program entrenchment, if I could get the same flight experience from Spiritless that I can American, then I absolutely would fly Spiritless.  But since there is a chasm of difference between the two carriers, I'll gladly pay more and fly American.


----------



## Quilter

JIMinNC said:


> But as I noted in post #98, that only really works if I'm traveling to the places where that person owns units that they can rent to me. For other locations, then I'm back to square one looking for someone that has the reservation I need and potentially dealing with someone I don't have any history with.



As I noted in post #43 the *simplest* way to work the MVC system is to find a seasoned owner at the Chairman level who can reserve 13+ months out.   Then you would benefit from their benefits.  They would do the work.   You wouldn't be limited to just the resorts they own but to their membership in the DC.   If you wanted to plan for a 13 month reservation you let them know in advance.   If you want to wait until last minute you have the same risks as they do.

We've taken many friends to MVC properties because we consider these our roaming cottage.   They've been honest to say they enjoyed the trip but they're not into limiting their vacations to one supplier (Marriott).   I can understand that completely.  I'm not in the business of selling timeshares and will be glad to reserve them anything I can if they ask.   One couple is visiting Ocean Pointe in March for a 50th birthday and another in June for an anniversary.  Another will be going us at Grande Ocean in just a couple weeks.  They have no year to year commitment to get any benefits I passed on to them.

There might be lots of flexibility in MVC but many (many, many) times it just doesn't take you to the spot you want to go.   Then, no matter how many points you own or whatever level you're at, you're back to that same square one looking for a room from another supplier.


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## frank808

Half the fun is the thrill of the hunt!  

Otoh when are you coming back to mko beefnot?  

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk


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## GoldenVIKE

Beefnot said:


> What is peculiar about the OP though is the sheer volume of research and analysis he has done, yet has a phobia of applying that same diligence to his vacation planning.  On the other hand, a leopard doesn't tend to change its spots, so although this may be a valid thought in his mind currently, when it comes down to it in practice, he will eventually get just as rabid about maximizing his vacations as he is about maximizing his purchase.  Same as I was when I bought, same as I am with my vacations.
> 
> As much as folks on TUG, myself included, like to downtalk those who take more costlier ownership approaches due to convenience concerns (e.g., JIMinNC, SueDonJ), if my disposable income was such that I didn't notice $40k fall out my pockets, I would probably be the same way.  But since I'm not, I maximize my vacation dollar (and apply some of those savings to splurges while on vacation).  Ok well, I'm lying.  Even if I did have money falling out my pockets, I would still probably not go retail.  I get too much of a thrill from saving money.  But at least I envision the scenario where I would be better able to appreciate the pro-retail crowd.



Haha this could be very true.  I do like data-driven challenges but not process-driven challenges.  The whole exchange world sounds endlessly frustrating to me; but yeah if there are ways to learn to work the system that just involve crunching numbers and pressing buttons and stuff can happen seamlessly and instantly - sign me up for the rehab program now!


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## Saintsfanfl

GoldenVIKE said:


> Haha this could be very true.  I do like data-driven challenges but not process-driven challenges.  The whole exchange world sounds endlessly frustrating to me; but yeah if there are ways to learn to work the system that just involve crunching numbers and pressing buttons and stuff can happen seamlessly and instantly - sign me up for the rehab program now!



Are you blessed with excitement from any type of thrill seeking endeavor? Exchanging can be very exciting. You can take something that cost a few hundred and get an exchange that would cost thousands. It's like the upside of gambling but without any downside.

We will usually have two or three reservations for a Spring or Summer vacation. We will wait until much closer to check-in when we know the weather and then we will decide which one to stick with and re-exchange out of the other ones. I guess it's a by product of having too many deposits. I love buying timeshares with free usage.


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## Saintsfanfl

Hi I'm new here said:


> Years later a neighbor purchased an off season Ocean Point, the salesman had assured them it was a good purchase and would trade well.



I don't know if there is any such thing as an "off season" Ocean Pointe ownership. Shoulder season maybe, but that would be the Gold season and not Silver. I say this because Sept, which is off season, is part of Silver, but so is Nov/Dec which should be Platinum. Silver Ocean Pointe "can" trade extremely well provided a decent demand week is booked. Not as well as Feb/Mar because not much does but much better than your average Marriott week. Ocean Pointe has nothing remotely close to the low demand silver and bronze HHI weeks or mud on the slopes. South Florida keeps a fairly steady demand the entire year.


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## JIMinNC

Beefnot said:


> Setting aside FF program entrenchment, if I could get the same flight experience from Spiritless that I can American, then I absolutely would fly Spiritless.  But since there is a chasm of difference between the two carriers, I'll gladly pay more and fly American.



And that is precisely my point about owning DC Points vs. just buying cheaper resale weeks or renting...if I could get the same booking and reservation experience, the same one-stop-shop source of potential bookings, and the same security that the reservation will be there when I check in, I would absolutely just buy resale weeks or rent from owners. But there is a chasm of difference between the DC Points booking experience and waiting for trades to come through, searching for owners with the dates and location I want, or having to trust that the owner I booked with did everything right and the reservation will be there when I check in. I'll gladly pay more to buy DC Points - at the best price I can - to avoid, whenever possible, the sub-optimal booking and reservation experience of the other options.

Yes, I know the accommodations I get with DC Points are the same as what I would get with resale week-based trades or owner rentals - but both Spirit and American can get me from Point A to Point B with a similar flight time...it's just the experience on American is better, and worth the price difference. IMHO, it's the same with DC Points vs. the cheaper options...it's not about where you are going, but how you get there.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

JIMinNC said:


> And that is precisely my point about owning DC Points vs. just buying cheaper resale weeks or renting...if I could get the same booking and reservation experience, the same one-stop-shop source of potential bookings, and the same security that the reservation will be there when I check in, I would absolutely just buy resale weeks or rent from owners. But there is a chasm of difference between the DC Points booking experience and waiting for trades to come through, searching for owners with the dates and location I want, or having to trust that the owner I booked with did everything right and the reservation will be there when I check in. I'll gladly pay more to buy DC Points - at the best price I can - to avoid, whenever possible, the sub-optimal booking and reservation experience of the other options.
> 
> Yes, I know the accommodations I get with DC Points are the same as what I would get with resale week-based trades or owner rentals - but both Spirit and American can get me from Point A to Point B with a similar flight time...it's just the experience on American is better, and worth the price difference. IMHO, it's the same with DC Points vs. the cheaper options...it's not about where you are going, but how you get there.



It can many times depend on affordability but people tend to view a correct decision through their own lens. My brother made 3.5 million last year and has absolutely no use for any type of timeshare. He simply books when and where he wants to go and pays the price because it's affordable to him and takes the time of a few clicks. To him time is extremely valuable. For me I buy resale and maximize every possible scenario I can. Mostly because I like it but also because it makes it affordable to me.

I agree on renting. I hate to say it because I rent out more and more often but I don't like renting a unit for myself. I don't like feeling like I am not in control of my own reservation. Fortunately there are plenty of renters out there that have no issue with it at all. They don't want to get into timesharing, they need a large unit, they don't like marriott.com prices, and don't mind paying up front to a stranger. Lately I have had a few renters asking if they can skip the down payment option and just pay the full amount. They don't want to waste the time. A few weeks ago I rented a unit 11 months out, then I went to contract to sell that same unit to someone else. Usage won't happen for almost two years but they want to make sure they lock it up. I couldn't do that a few years ago. The economy is going pretty good.


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## JIMinNC

Quilter said:


> As I noted in post #43 the *simplest* way to work the MVC system is to find a seasoned owner at the Chairman level who can reserve 13+ months out.   Then you would benefit from their benefits.  They would do the work.   You wouldn't be limited to just the resorts they own but to their membership in the DC.   If you wanted to plan for a 13 month reservation you let them know in advance.   If you want to wait until last minute you have the same risks as they do.
> 
> We've taken many friends to MVC properties because we consider these our roaming cottage.   They've been honest to say they enjoyed the trip but they're not into limiting their vacations to one supplier (Marriott).   I can understand that completely.  I'm not in the business of selling timeshares and will be glad to reserve them anything I can if they ask.   One couple is visiting Ocean Pointe in March for a 50th birthday and another in June for an anniversary.  Another will be going us at Grande Ocean in just a couple weeks.  They have no year to year commitment to get any benefits I passed on to them.
> 
> There might be lots of flexibility in MVC but many (many, many) times it just doesn't take you to the spot you want to go.   Then, no matter how many points you own or whatever level you're at, you're back to that same square one looking for a room from another supplier.



Good point, and I agree, using a Chairman's Club owner who could book anything you want with their points and establishing a relationship with that person would come the closest to replicating the same flexibility I get as an owner. But what happens if my plans change? In most cases with owner rentals, pre-payment is required, so if something causes me to have to change my plans I'm probably SOL. Maybe there are travel insurance programs that would cover owner rentals, but those usually have fairly restrictive rules about why I'm canceling. If it was for a situation like last summer where we canceled a trip to Maui because our teenage daughter didn't want to go on a trip where she couldn't bring a friend, that wouldn't be covered by insurance I suspect. The other downside is, sometimes I don't have specific dates that I need to travel, and it's much more convenient to be able to just go online onto the DC Points website and shop around for what's available and play around with options. It's much harder to do that when having to work through an intermediary of another owner who does the searching for you.

In the end, I guess it also has a lot to do with control. With an owner rental, that person still ultimately makes and controls the reservation, and for whatever reason, I prefer to control my own reservations, eliminate middlemen, and deal as close to the ultimate source as possible. The issues of trust, one-stop-shop, etc., may be just manifestations of the fact that I want to have as much control over my own reservations and the reservation experience as I can, even if it costs more to do so. That may also be why I will always, whenever possible, book online vs. using a call center - whether its timeshares, hotels, airlines, rental cars, sports or concert tickets, or anything else - I can see all the choices myself with my own eyes and pick the ones I want without running them through the filter of another person's eyes. I'm in control. I don't think I'm as bad as the "Control Freak" guy in the National Car Rental commercials, but I get his point!

And when MVC doesn't have what I need, I'm sure marriott.com, hilton.com, westin.com, or any of the other multitude of travel web sites will. I know where MVC can take me, so if I want to go somewhere that I know MVC can't (or if I don't need MVC-type accommodations for that trip), I'll first go to somewhere like orbitz.com where I can search all brands. When I find something that looks interesting, I'll probably then go direct to that brand's web site to book it. Same for airline tickets - check orbitz.com to see who has the cheapest fares, and then go to that airline's site to book.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

JIMinNC said:


> I'll first go to somewhere like orbitz.com where I can search all brands. When I find something that looks interesting, I'll probably then go direct to that brand's web site to book it.



For airline tickets it's almost always cheaper to book at the source. The airlines pay pennies in commission so the search sites will have a fee buried in the cost of the ticket under taxes and fees. The one drawback is sometimes you have to go to two sites to book two one-way tickets for a round trip if you want the cheapest price possible.


----------



## BocaBoy

Quilter said:


> Golden did such a good job running the numbers and talking the talk that it was reasonable to question if he was a salesperson.


That is really a bogus rationale for questioning if he was a salesperson.  The same thing happened to me right after the DC was introduced and I started posting.  You are really saying if a new poster sounds intelligent and is not slamming MVCI at every turn he/she is a salesman.  It is possible  for someone to come here already pretty knowledgeable about the system.  TUG is not the only place to learn.  I know that from personal experience.  And to me the OP's highly analytical posts in this thread did not sound at all like the analysis of a salesperson.


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## Quilter

My response is embedded.  I don't know how to change colors with new system



JIMinNC said:


> Good point, and I agree ...



Thanks



JIMinNC said:


> But what happens if my plans change? In most cases with owner rentals, pre-payment is required, so if something causes me to have to change my plans I'm probably SOL...



You use some of the $30k that you saved to find something else.  Or...you share the risk with the owner and try to find a suitable replacement.  You would have a similar risk with your own ownership.



JIMinNC said:


> If it was for a situation like last summer where we canceled a trip to Maui because our teenage daughter didn't want to go on a trip where she couldn't bring a friend, that wouldn't be covered by insurance I suspect...



Ah yes, teenagers moods and plans should be insurable. 



JIMinNC said:


> The other downside is, sometimes I don't have specific dates that I need to travel, and it's much more convenient to be able to just go online onto the DC Points website and shop around for what's available and play around with options. It's much harder to do that when having to work through an intermediary of another owner who does the searching for you...



With 7 weeks and possibly 10-20K points a year I obviously agree with you.



JIMinNC said:


> In the end, I guess it also has a lot to do with control.



My point was directed specifically to the person who wants the simplest way to benefit from the MVC system.


----------



## Quilter

BocaBoy said:


> That is really a bogus rationale for questioning if he was a salesperson.



Oh I don't think it's bogus at all.  I can't speak for others but I intended no malice with my "wonderings".  I simply posted honest thoughts based on a conditioning from other situations.

I often wonder how many "new To MVC" posters actually read the legal document they signed.  Few come to TUG with the ability to converse in fluent timeshare.


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## Quilter

I'm lost on the new screen name and avatar.   Does this have any significance?

*VIKE*
*Acronym* *Definition*
VIKE Visualizing Information in Knowledge Engineering (workshop)


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## Fasttr

Quilter said:


> I'm lost on the new screen name and avatar.   Does this have any significance?
> 
> *VIKE*
> *Acronym* *Definition*
> VIKE Visualizing Information in Knowledge Engineering (workshop)



A total shot in the dark guess....but judging from the Minnesota Vikings style logo for his avatar, I am guessing its a cross between his collegiate allegiance.... the Minnesota Golden Gophers, and his favorite NFL team, the Minnesota Vikings.


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## BocaBoy

Quilter said:


> Oh I don't think it's bogus at all.  I can't speak for others but I intended no malice with my "wonderings".  I simply posted honest thoughts based on a conditioning from other situations.


I am sure it was your "honest thoughts", but having been on the receiving end of this type of uninformed accusation, I find it EXTREMELY offensive.  "Conditioning from other situations"?  Really?  In the years I have been on TUG, the vast majority of such accusations have proved to be unfounded.  It seems to be an all too frequent knee jerk reaction to a knowledgeable new poster who is not slamming Marriott.  TUGGERs do not have a monopoly on knowledge.


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## BocaBoy

Quilter said:


> I often wonder how many "new To MVC" posters actually read the legal document they signed.  Few come to TUG with the ability to converse in fluent timeshare.


Only a small percentage of TUG members have read the legal document either.


----------



## SueDonJ

I'm with Jim and Boca - it makes no sense to me that knowledgeable newcomers to TUG are greeted with suspicion and outright accusations of having ulterior motives but it happens all the time.  The first volleys are always "ah-OOH-gah salesman on deck!" but it doesn't begin and end there.  The worst criticisms I've taken from fellow TUGgers have happened when I've tried to help others find and understand info in their ownership documents, especially when that info is advantageous to Marriott.  If somebody shares how to exploit every loophole - legal and not so much - that exists with Marriott ownership, TUGgers will credit the poster with being the best ever.  But posters who give equal time to Marriott's rights to close those loopholes are boo-ed from the balcony.

Of course all-or-nothing is exaggeration but the above is true more often than not.  (And Beef?  I'd be a sham of a seamstress if $40,000 could fall out of my pockets.)


----------



## Hi I'm new here

I understand why a knowledgeable newbie is under suspicion for one reason and I will be blunt.  I cannot fathom that there is still a market for timeshare purchases that involve shelling out massive sums of money initially and then shelling out thousands per year in maintenance fees. All this to buy something that will NOT hold value, the yearly fees are too high. 

I wish the OP the best and he has been a good sport listening to all the admonition. Thanks for listening.


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## GoldenVIKE

Hi I'm new here said:


> I understand why a knowledgeable newbie is under suspicion for one reason and I will be blunt.  I cannot fathom that there is still a market for timeshare purchases that involve shelling out massive sums of money initially and then shelling out thousands per year in maintenance fees. All this to buy something that will NOT hold value, the yearly fees are too high.
> 
> I wish the OP the best and he has been a good sport listening to all the admonition. Thanks for listening.



Actually this hits on part of my motivation for posting.  I am going into MVCI under an assumption that if we want out, we likely won't get much if anything back.  After broker fees etc you're probably looking at $2-$4 per point to sell.  Most people look at an investment as something that they can buy today and sell in the future at a gain.  That's not the only type of investment though.  For example, paying off a loan is an "investment" which as a return equal to the interest rate on the loan.  Buying nice work clothes is an "investment" that pays off in terms of your professional image and all of the benefits that follow from that.  For TS, the investment is the points but the return is the perpetual difference in cost between annual MFs and the trips you get to take.  Even if the value of a point falls to $0, so long as there's still a delta between annual MF and your trip value, this investment can be pretty solid over time (perhaps as little as 3-10 years depending on where you want to peg some of those variables in my initial post).  That's just the financial aspect of it.  As someone who has owned lake properties and boats, only to use them less than you should and then move away and have to sell them, I view MVCI as a sort of "floating beach house" that only cost $50k and now I never have to worry about the hassle of maintaining, selling, or keeping up to date.  Even the annual MFs aren't any worse than annual property taxes would be on a cabin, let alone all the other maintenance.  In any event, while I respect the many differing viewpoints on this, to me the points TS thing is a godsend in terms of modest financial payoff, but huge payoff in fun, flexibility, and ease of use.  At least that's what I hope we've signed up for!  Ask me again in a few years and hopefully I'll be singing at least a similar tune!  Haha.


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## Saintsfanfl

GoldenVIKE said:


> Actually this hits on part of my motivation for posting.  I am going into MVCI under an assumption that if we want out, we likely won't get much if anything back.  After broker fees etc you're probably looking at $2-$4 per point to sell.  Most people look at an investment as something that they can buy today and sell in the future at a gain.  That's not the only type of investment though.  For example, paying off a loan is an "investment" which as a return equal to the interest rate on the loan.  Buying nice work clothes is an "investment" that pays off in terms of your professional image and all of the benefits that follow from that.  For TS, the investment is the points but the return is the perpetual difference in cost between annual MFs and the trips you get to take.  Even if the value of a point falls to $0, so long as there's still a delta between annual MF and your trip value, this investment can be pretty solid over time (perhaps as little as 3-10 years depending on where you want to peg some of those variables in my initial post).  That's just the financial aspect of it.  As someone who has owned lake properties and boats, only to use them less than you should and then move away and have to sell them, I view MVCI as a sort of "floating beach house" that only cost $50k and now I never have to worry about the hassle of maintaining, selling, or keeping up to date.  Even the annual MFs aren't any worse than annual property taxes would be on a cabin, let alone all the other maintenance.  In any event, while I respect the many differing viewpoints on this, to me the points TS thing is a godsend in terms of modest financial payoff, but huge payoff in fun, flexibility, and ease of use.  At least that's what I hope we've signed up for!  Ask me again in a few years and hopefully I'll be singing at least a similar tune!  Haha.



This is an excellent post!


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## JIMinNC

Hi I'm new here said:


> I cannot fathom that there is still a market for timeshare purchases that involve shelling out massive sums of money initially and then shelling out thousands per year in maintenance fees. All this to buy something that will NOT hold value, the yearly fees are too high.



Why is there a market? Because as GoldenVIKE explained very well, there is still value there.

In April, my wife, daughter, and two of my daughter's friends will be in Hilton Head for the week of the RBC Heritage PGA golf tournament. My wife and I will be back in Hilton Head in September. The maintenance fee cost for those two trips is about $3,300, or about $240 per night. For that cost, we'll get 14 nights in 2 bedroom oceanfront (April) or oceanside (September) condos, with full kitchens, at resorts with activities and many other hotel-like amenities. Oceanfront hotel rooms in Hilton Head at those times of the year cost more than that - one room, no kitchen. If we wanted a comparable Marriott condo, we would have to pay at least $500-$600 per night or more.

So for us - and I think for many other people - there is still a lot of value in timeshare purchases. Yes, it's more expensive than it was 10 or 20 years ago, but so are hotels. I can remember not too long ago when you could book a four or five-star oceanfront hotel room in prime time for less than $150/night.


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## JIMinNC

I'll add that I think the point Saintsfanfl made in post #150 about different people seeing this issue through different lenses, is the reason there are so many different thoughts on the value proposition of timeshares and timeshares vs. rentals.

For people who make $3.5 million a year like the example he used in that post, money really isn't the issue. They can afford whatever it costs, so convenience and ease are the most important than cost. They are relatively cost insensitive, so they can rent whatever hotel or condo they want for almost any reasonable price. Timeshare ownership doesn't really offer them much value.

On the other end are folks of more modest means who want to travel and can afford to, but they need to be as efficient as cost effective as possible. If that means giving up cancellation flexibility, dealing with another owner instead of a timeshare or hotel company, or other compromises to save a buck and still get great accommodations, they are willing to do that. 

In the middle, are some other folks - I know we're in that category and it sounds like GoldenVIKE may be, too. For us, cost is most certainly an object - we don't have an unlimited budget, so trying to find ways to travel more cost effectively is important - but we're willing to pay a little more for the flexibility of controlling our own reservations, the ability to cancel and change with minimal hassle, book online, etc. 

What may be right for me, though, may not be right for everyone.


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## BocaBoy

Hi I'm new here said:


> I understand why a knowledgeable newbie is under suspicion for one reason and I will be blunt.  I cannot fathom that there is still a market for timeshare purchases that involve shelling out massive sums of money initially and then shelling out thousands per year in maintenance fees. All this to buy something that will NOT hold value, the yearly fees are too high.


Then you must not fathom either why there is a market for luxury cars, for boats, etc.  I would personally NEVER be interested in those  things but I do understand the attraction to some, just as I understand why many people, even knowledgeable people, actually choose to buy timeshares from the developer.  We must be careful not to project our own values on the population at large.


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## Fasttr

BocaBoy said:


> Then you must not fathom either why there is a market for luxury cars, for boats, etc.  And why would anyone ever shop at Tiffany's when another jewelry store is much cheaper?  I would personally NEVER be interested in those  things but I do understand the attraction to some, just as I understand why many people, even knowledgeable people, choose to buy timeshares from the developer.  We must be careful not to project our own values on the population at large.


Well said.


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## BocaBoy

JIMinNC said:


> Yes, it's more expensive than it was 10 or 20 years ago, but so are hotels. I can remember not too long ago when you could book a four or five-star oceanfront hotel room in prime time for less than $150/night.


You are a lot younger than I am!  When we honeymooned in Hawaii in 1973, there were only four hotels on Kaanapali Beach.  We stayed at the Maui Surf (now the Westin) in an oceanfront room for $32 or $33 per night.  Same with the Coco Palms on Kauai.  The Royal Hawaiian was more expensive....it was $45 per night for an oceanfront room in the tower, which was also relatively new then.


----------



## JIMinNC

BocaBoy said:


> You are a lot younger than I am!  When we honeymooned in Hawaii in 1973, there were only four hotels on Kaanapali Beach.  We stayed at the Maui Surf (now the Westin) in an oceanfront room for $32 or $33 per night.  Same with the Coco Palms on Kauai.  The Royal Hawaiian was more expensive....it was $45 per night for an oceanfront room in the tower, which was also relatively new then.



We honeymooned in Hawaii as well, in 1992, but we married a little later than most folks, in our mid-30s. I still have our travel documents from the honeymoon for sentimental reasons, so I looked to see if I could see how much we paid. It turns out we bought a package from Pleasant Hawaiian Holidays that included hotel, convertible rental cars, three inter island flight segments, and a few other extras like luaus, etc. so the hotels aren't broken out (we used FF miles to go first class from CLT-HNL-CLT). We stayed at the Sheraton Waikiki, the Hyatt Regency Kaanapali, and the Hyatt Regency Waikoloa (now the Hilton Waikoloa). The whole package for two weeks - hotel, convertibles, inter-island flights, and luaus was just a little over $3000.


----------



## BocaBoy

JIMinNC said:


> We honeymooned in Hawaii as well, in 1992, but we married a little later than most folks, in our mid-30s. I still have our travel documents from the honeymoon for sentimental reasons, so I looked to see if I could see how much we paid. It turns out we bought a package from Pleasant Hawaiian Holidays that included hotel, convertible rental cars, three inter island flight segments, and a few other extras like luaus, etc. so the hotels aren't broken out (we used FF miles to go first class from CLT-HNL-CLT). We stayed at the Sheraton Waikiki, the Hyatt Regency Kaanapali, and the Hyatt Regency Waikoloa (now the Hilton Waikoloa). The whole package for two weeks - hotel, convertibles, inter-island flights, and luaus was just a little over $3000.


We spent a total of just over $2500 for a 13-night trip in 1973, which included round-trip coach airfare from ORD to Hilo and back from HNL.  I remember the airfare was about $350 each, so inflation in airfares has been very modest over the years, unlike hotels and restaurants.  On the outer islands we bought a meal package at the luxury hotels for $20/day ($10 each) which included a buffet breakfast and anything we wanted on the menu.  I had a lot of surf and turf that week on the outer islands.  Fun memories.


----------



## Fasttr

JIMinNC said:


> We honeymooned in Hawaii as well, in 1992, but we married a little later than most folks, in our mid-30s. I still have our travel documents from the honeymoon for sentimental reasons, so I looked to see if I could see how much we paid. It turns out we bought a package from Pleasant Hawaiian Holidays that included hotel, convertible rental cars, three inter island flight segments, and a few other extras like luaus, etc. so the hotels aren't broken out (we used FF miles to go first class from CLT-HNL-CLT). We stayed at the Sheraton Waikiki, the Hyatt Regency Kaanapali, and the Hyatt Regency Waikoloa (now the Hilton Waikoloa). The whole package for two weeks - hotel, convertibles, inter-island flights, and luaus was just a little over $3000.





BocaBoy said:


> We spent a total of just over $2500 for a 13-night trip in 1973, which included round-trip coach airfare from ORD to Hilo and back from HNL.  I remember the airfare was about $350 each, so inflation in airfares has been very modest over the years, unlike hotels and restaurants.  On the outer islands we bought a meal package at the luxury hotels for $20/day ($10 each) which included a buffet breakfast and anything we wanted on the menu.  I had a lot of surf and turf that week on the outer islands.  Fun memories.


Maybe GoldenVIKE is a MVC Salesman...he's got you two reminiscing so much, your next move is going to be buying a Points package so you can vacation more.


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## Quilter

SueDonJ said:


> I'm with Jim and Boca - it makes no sense to me that knowledgeable newcomers to TUG are greeted with suspicion and outright accusations of having ulterior motives but it happens all the time.



Oh this brings to mind a thread back a couple years when FT first came to TUG.   Can't find threads from the old TUG with the search function or I would paste a link here.

p.s.   I was away from TUG for a while and when I came back there was no SeaDoc and no FT.   Did they just vanish?


----------



## Quilter

GoldenVIKE said:


> Actually this hits on part of my motivation for posting.  I am going into MVCI under an assumption that if we want out, we likely won't get much if anything back.  After broker fees etc you're probably looking at $2-$4 per point to sell.  Most people look at an investment as something that they can buy today and sell in the future at a gain.  That's not the only type of investment though.  For example, paying off a loan is an "investment" which as a return equal to the interest rate on the loan.  Buying nice work clothes is an "investment" that pays off in terms of your professional image and all of the benefits that follow from that.  For TS, the investment is the points but the return is the perpetual difference in cost between annual MFs and the trips you get to take.  Even if the value of a point falls to $0, so long as there's still a delta between annual MF and your trip value, this investment can be pretty solid over time (perhaps as little as 3-10 years depending on where you want to peg some of those variables in my initial post).  That's just the financial aspect of it.  As someone who has owned lake properties and boats, only to use them less than you should and then move away and have to sell them, I view MVCI as a sort of "floating beach house" that only cost $50k and now I never have to worry about the hassle of maintaining, selling, or keeping up to date.  Even the annual MFs aren't any worse than annual property taxes would be on a cabin, let alone all the other maintenance.  In any event, while I respect the many differing viewpoints on this, to me the points TS thing is a godsend in terms of modest financial payoff, but huge payoff in fun, flexibility, and ease of use.  At least that's what I hope we've signed up for!  Ask me again in a few years and hopefully I'll be singing at least a similar tune!  Haha.



Yes to this.

That's why we call it our roaming cottage.   

We had house in MI, condo in Chicago and the timeshares.   I would have to schedule out time for the condo in Chicago to make a point of using it.   We called that our "Lake House".    We sold it to simplify.

With the timeshares we figured we could meet up with family all around the world.   The MF's generate lots of MR points that have been turned into hotel/miles packages.   I manage the timeshares and have been trying to say it takes a fair amount of time.   So many choices.   So many tweaks to keep up with.   Every time I'm away from TUG for a while I wonder what secrets I've missed.  You find the oddest helpful hint buried in a thread.

In all the posts so far have you actually said what your wish list consists of?


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## JIMinNC

Quilter said:


> I was away from TUG for a while and when I came back there was no SeaDoc and no FT.   Did they just vanish?



SeaDoc was told by Marriott that employees were prohibited from participating in timeshare-related social media/message boards, so he bowed out a year or so ago, as I recall.


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## Fasttr

JIMinNC said:


> SeaDoc was told by Marriott that employees were prohibited from participating in timeshare-related social media/message boards, so he bowed out a year or so ago, as I recall.


But oddly enough, he posted a non rental related comment on VPE just a few weeks ago.
http://vacationpointexchange.com/po...y-3-bedroom-grande-vista-3-725-points-(2018)/


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## GoldenVIKE

Quilter said:


> Yes to this.
> 
> That's why we call it our roaming cottage.
> 
> We had house in MI, condo in Chicago and the timeshares.   I would have to schedule out time for the condo in Chicago to make a point of using it.   We called that our "Lake House".    We sold it to simplify.
> 
> With the timeshares we figured we could meet up with family all around the world.   The MF's generate lots of MR points that have been turned into hotel/miles packages.   I manage the timeshares and have been trying to say it takes a fair amount of time.   So many choices.   So many tweaks to keep up with.   Every time I'm away from TUG for a while I wonder what secrets I've missed.  You find the oddest helpful hint buried in a thread.
> 
> In all the posts so far have you actually said what your wish list consists of?



Is this directed toward me?  I'm not sure if I'm interpreting the question right but in terms of how we'll use this, it'll likely evolve over time which is why we value flexibility so much.  But in the short run probably longer trips (perhaps even 2-3 weeks) where we can stay in a larger villa and invite friends or family to join for part of the trip.  Mid-range likely some trips to Orlando (Disney), Colorado, etc, with the kids.  Definitely will go to the Caribbean a good amount.  Perhaps some shorter trips for golf.  Curious about the Explorer stuff (are those generally good deals and worth it?) - and could definitely see us renting a Home for a family reunion or vow renewal type of excuse to bring people together.  When the kids are in high school (in 15 years or so) then likely more foreign travel.  We've already traveled a good amount around the world, but over time it'd be interesting to see if the Explorer and II offer good opportunities to cross some unique things off of the bucket list.  Does anyone on here use the alternative options for points much?  (Cruises, Explorer, Events, Homes, etc?)  If so, any feedback?


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## GoldenVIKE

Quilter said:


> Yes to this.
> 
> That's why we call it our roaming cottage.
> 
> We had house in MI, condo in Chicago and the timeshares.   I would have to schedule out time for the condo in Chicago to make a point of using it.   We called that our "Lake House".    We sold it to simplify.
> 
> With the timeshares we figured we could meet up with family all around the world.   The MF's generate lots of MR points that have been turned into hotel/miles packages.   I manage the timeshares and have been trying to say it takes a fair amount of time.   So many choices.   So many tweaks to keep up with.   Every time I'm away from TUG for a while I wonder what secrets I've missed.  You find the oddest helpful hint buried in a thread.
> 
> In all the posts so far have you actually said what your wish list consists of?



Where was your condo in Chicago?  Two relocations ago (but only 5 years ago!) we lived in a highrise in Old Town / Gold Coast and loved being 2 blocks from Lincoln Park, North Ave Beach, Wells Street, and a kazillion things to do.  We're in the Chicago 'burbs now but will someday very possibly buy another condo in the city for weekends, and for when I'm working nutty hours at work (working downtown)


----------



## Quilter

GoldenVIKE said:


> Is this directed toward me?  I'm not sure if I'm interpreting the question right but in terms of how we'll use this, it'll likely evolve over time which is why we value flexibility so much.  But in the short run probably longer trips (perhaps even 2-3 weeks) where we can stay in a larger villa and invite friends or family to join for part of the trip.  Mid-range likely some trips to Orlando (Disney), Colorado, etc, with the kids.  Definitely will go to the Caribbean a good amount.  Perhaps some shorter trips for golf.  Curious about the Explorer stuff (are those generally good deals and worth it?) - and could definitely see us renting a Home for a family reunion or vow renewal type of excuse to bring people together.  When the kids are in high school (in 15 years or so) then likely more foreign travel.  We've already traveled a good amount around the world, but over time it'd be interesting to see if the Explorer and II offer good opportunities to cross some unique things off of the bucket list.  Does anyone on here use the alternative options for points much?  (Cruises, Explorer, Events, Homes, etc?)  If so, any feedback?



No Explorer for us.  Early on in the DC I read that the group Marriott used wasn't so great.   Things may have improved.  

It all sounds grand.   Enjoy.

Add Hilton Head Island to your wishlist.   If you don't get a whole house you can go for several units.


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## Quilter

GoldenVIKE said:


> Where was your condo in Chicago?  Two relocations ago (but only 5 years ago!) we lived in a highrise in Old Town / Gold Coast and loved being 2 blocks from Lincoln Park, North Ave Beach, Wells Street, and a kazillion things to do.  We're in the Chicago 'burbs now but will someday very possibly buy another condo in the city for weekends, and for when I'm working nutty hours at work (working downtown)



In the Chandler at Lake Shore East.   Walking distance to Millennium Park and Lurie Garden.  Patio faced the river and Navy Pier.   Would walk or bike north to zoo and south to Planetarium.  

In '77 we started out in Northville.   Spent the summers biking the Forest Preserve.


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## PearlCity

I would suggest rescinding, doing more research on the resale market and other systems and decide what you really want before buying a timeshare. I came to this forum thinking o wanted to buy a HGVC week and Marriott week. I ended up buying a Marriott week, then worldmark and disney. All via resale.  Sold Marriott and never bought HGVC.  Now I own Disney and Worldmark. Two systems I never thought I wanted when I started my timeshare journey 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Beefnot

JIMinNC said:


> And that is precisely my point about owning DC Points vs. just buying cheaper resale weeks or renting...if I could get the same booking and reservation experience, the same one-stop-shop source of potential bookings, and the same security that the reservation will be there when I check in, I would absolutely just buy resale weeks or rent from owners. But there is a chasm of difference between the DC Points booking experience and waiting for trades to come through, searching for owners with the dates and location I want, or having to trust that the owner I booked with did everything right and the reservation will be there when I check in. I'll gladly pay more to buy DC Points - at the best price I can - to avoid, whenever possible, the sub-optimal booking and reservation experience of the other options.
> 
> Yes, I know the accommodations I get with DC Points are the same as what I would get with resale week-based trades or owner rentals - but both Spirit and American can get me from Point A to Point B with a similar flight time...it's just the experience on American is better, and worth the price difference. IMHO, it's the same with DC Points vs. the cheaper options...it's not about where you are going, but how you get there.



I care more about the flight experience than the reservation experience. A convenient website or phone booking system, yadda yadda is not something I would pay a demonstrable premium for. If the reservation experience was markedly superior with one airline, but once I got to the airport, there was really no distinction,then I might be more drawn lower cost Spiritless. Or if I only cared about the destination and not the journey, then Spiritless it might be.

Ultimately, my mental calculus for the degree of risk and inconvenience I am comfortable with is positively correlated with the degree of premium  between the superior option and an inferior option. To each his own. You have the dough, so drop it as you see fit. My best friend is exactly the same way so I completely got it.


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## Beefnot

Saintsfanfl said:


> I agree on renting. I hate to say it because I rent out more and more often but I don't like renting a unit for myself. I don't like feeling like I am not in control of my own reservation.



Agree also, though I did it for a three night add-on to a 10-night Disney Aulani trip a couple years ago because I would rather save $1800 off retail. Was a but stressful at a couple points, but for me $1800 was worth it.  Now if the differential had only been $100, well...


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## davidvel

JIMinNC said:


> SeaDoc was told by Marriott that employees were prohibited from participating in timeshare-related social media/message boards, so he bowed out a year or so ago, as I recall.


Initially Seadoc did not disclose that he was a Marriott salesperson but was strongly advocating for people to buy DC points, many times leaving out important facts (as salespeople tend to do.) After he was outed, he acknowledged his status, but then said Marriott banned him.


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## Hi I'm new here

I still cannot fathom buyers still exist for retail timeshares from a developer.  Fifty thousand dollars up front then several thousand plus per year in maintenance fees-  the OP will have spent over $100,000 in a twenty year period for points that hold little to no value.  
I don't see the comparison to buying jewelry at Tiffanys to buying a Marriott TS.  Tiffany sells the finest diamonds, jewels,  collectibles that will hold value.  I'm not a jewelry afffectionado so I don't know percentages.  Marriott TS are very nice but hardly in the luxury category of a Tiffanys.   The OP may be disappointed in some of the units, depending on how recently they refurbished.  The HHI place we had was on a seven year cycle for soft goods and an even longer stretch for tile, counters, etc.  TS receive a lot of wear and tear, the units may look tired and dated depending on the refurb cycle.  Once we paid an extra refurb assessment at the end of one year but we were so disappointed when we arrived in July.  They had not finished the refurb and our unit was not updated.  
Marriott landscaping, pools, outdoor areas are always well maintained, we had no issues there. 

Why buy what you can rent.  Someone upthread is going to HHI twice this year April and September.  I spent two minutes online searching.  I found a Saturday to Saturday Monarch unit that overlaps the Saturday and Sunday Heritage golf rounds.  Asking price $1750. The week after the tournament numerous Marriott units at several resorts are available to rent at $1100-1300 per week.  We have friends who go late March early April to golf and get Marriott two bedrooms for less than $1000 per week. 
Numerous Marriott September weeks are available for rent in the $1200 to $1300 range.  Families are back to school and prices drop.

Some posters quote rack rate hotel prices and compare to a TS.  In the era of Priceline , Hotwire, Hotel tonight, a myriad of discount and points programs who in the world pays rack rates?  
Someone mentioned Pleasant Hawaiian holidays, we have gotten tremendous package deals from them and other travel companies to see the world.  When you book trip components separately you pay much more for air, car, hotel, meal packages, etc.  Some travel companies package villas and condos with the other components.


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## NYFLTRAVELER

My two cents, if I may. As many of you know I purchased a few years ago on site and then rescinded after researching and coming across this site. I then wound up purchasing 3500 points on the resale market for approx. $6.00 per point including the junk fees (which were significantly less in 2013/14). I found that my 3500 points did not get me much as I'd be closed out from what worked for my family (we have 2 kids age 6 & 8 and basically are limited to traveling high peak (school recess) periods.  

Nevertheless I do enjoy the MVCI experience and felt that adding another 1000 points would help. We went on a couple of tours and then purchased an encore package.  At the recent encore tour I went in there with no intention of buying, but after the tour and looking at what I was offered, I went ahead with a purchase of a hybrid....2000 more points and a fixed week which can either be converted annually to 2000 more points, used as is, converted to MR points or deposited into II for non Marriott properties. This hybrid cost less than $24,000. I have no regrets doing it as I have been upgraded to MR gold lifetime, executive status, and essentially now have 7500 points at a price of $6.00 per point all in.

I know buying from marriottt is not for everybody but I have no regrets.


----------



## bazzap

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> My two cents, if I may. As many of you know I purchased a few years ago on site and then rescinded after researching and coming across this site. I then wound up purchasing 3500 points on the resale market for approx. $6.00 per point including the junk fees (which were significantly less in 2013/14). I found that my 3500 points did not get me much as I'd be closed out from what worked for my family (we have 2 kids age 6 & 8 and basically are limited to traveling high peak (school recess) periods.
> 
> Nevertheless I do enjoy the MVCI experience and felt that adding another 1000 points would help. We went on a couple of tours and then purchased an encore package.  At the recent encore tour I went in there with no intention of buying, but after the tour and looking at what I was offered, I went ahead with a purchase of a hybrid....2000 more points and a fixed week which can either be converted annually to 2000 more points, used as is, converted to MR points or deposited into II for non Marriott properties. This hybrid cost less than $24,000. I have no regrets doing it as I have been upgraded to MR gold lifetime, executive status, and essentially now have 7500 points at a price of $6.00 per point all in.
> 
> I know buying from marriottt is not for everybody but I have no regrets.


I am guessing you have MR Gold through your DC Points benefit level, provided you maintain Executive or Select level, as I have not heard of true Lifetime status being offered with Points purchase before?
Well worth having anyway.


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## JIMinNC

Hi I'm new here said:


> I still cannot fathom buyers still exist for retail timeshares from a developer. Fifty thousand dollars up front then several thousand plus per year in maintenance fees- the OP will have spent over $100,000 in a twenty year period for points that hold little to no value. I don't see the comparison to buying jewelry at Tiffanys to buying a Marriott TS. Tiffany sells the finest diamonds, jewels, collectibles that will hold value. I'm not a jewelry afffectionado so I don't know percentages. Marriott TS are very nice but hardly in the luxury category of a Tiffanys. The OP may be disappointed in some of the units, depending on how recently they refurbished. The HHI place we had was on a seven year cycle for soft goods and an even longer stretch for tile, counters, etc. TS receive a lot of wear and tear, the units may look tired and dated depending on the refurb cycle. Once we paid an extra refurb assessment at the end of one year but we were so disappointed when we arrived in July. They had not finished the refurb and our unit was not updated.
> Marriott landscaping, pools, outdoor areas are always well maintained, we had no issues there.
> 
> Why buy what you can rent.  Someone upthread is going to HHI twice this year April and September.  I spent two minutes online searching.  I found a Saturday to Saturday Monarch unit that overlaps the Saturday and Sunday Heritage golf rounds.  Asking price $1750. The week after the tournament numerous Marriott units at several resorts are available to rent at $1100-1300 per week.  We have friends who go late March early April to golf and get Marriott two bedrooms for less than $1000 per week.
> Numerous Marriott September weeks are available for rent in the $1200 to $1300 range.  Families are back to school and prices drop.
> 
> Some posters quote rack rate hotel prices and compare to a TS.  In the era of Priceline , Hotwire, Hotel tonight, a myriad of discount and points programs who in the world pays rack rates?
> Someone mentioned Pleasant Hawaiian holidays, we have gotten tremendous package deals from them and other travel companies to see the world.  When you book trip components separately you pay much more for air, car, hotel, meal packages, etc.  Some travel companies package villas and condos with the other components.



I'm not sure I understand why "holding value" is important. A lot of things we buy every day don't hold value - cars, clothes, etc. Some people buy $20,000 cars, others buy $50,000 cars, but they all lose value over time. You have to look at timeshares as a consumable product, not an investment that holds value. And you have to do your financial analysis of a timeshare - as GoldenVIKE did - based on analyzing it as a consumable product, not an investment that holds value.

I am the person going to Hilton Head in April and September. Those Hilton Head rates you quote were "asking price" from private owners. As I've pointed out in numerous posts in this thread (and others have posted they feel the same way), some people are just not comfortable dealing directly with a private party. I've laid out the reasons in multiple posts, and that's just the way I feel. We want to control our own reservation and deal direct with a travel company rather than an individual from the internet. You obviously don't share that feeling and are willing to book from other owners to save some money. That's great that you're willing to do that. You'll be able to travel a lot cheaper than we will. We'll pay more, but we'll be able to have the control and flexibility that we want. I agree with what BocaBoy said earlier, "We must be careful not to project our own values on the population at large."

You asked, "Who in the world pays "rack" hotel rates?" It depends on what you consider "rack" rates. But if by rack rates you mean "who books on hotel websites like marriott.com or hilton.com, etc?" - well, a lot of people do, or they would not keep those systems. That's really the ONLY place (other than timeshare bookings) that WE ever book hotels - marriott.com, hilton.com, ihg.com, etc. Many of these hotel company sites offer discounted rates as well as "rack" rates, so I will often book the cheapest rate from these sites that does not require pre-payment or have restricted cancellation rights. (I usually look for the AAA rate.) I've generally found that the only way to beat the hotel sites' rates on other travel sites like orbitz.com, expedia.com, hotels.com, and even on priceline and hotwire, is to book the rates that require full pre-payment and/or no refunds. We never book those rates. I want to retain as much flexibility as possible.

Prior to owning timeshares, we used to use travel consolidators like Pleasant Hawaiian, American Airlines Vacations (back then it was USAir Vacations), GoGo Vacations, etc. but we've come to prefer the DIY approach because we can mix and match better - and can pick the airline, car company, hotel, etc that we want and not have to go with their pre-packaged options. DIY also gives us the ability to mix in FF miles or hotel loyalty points where they make sense.

We recognize there may be cheaper ways to travel, but the way we choose works for us - it gives us the control we want at a price we can afford. Our approach may not work for you, but it works for us. Again, to restate what that wise sage BocaBoy said, "We must be careful not to project our own values on the population at large."


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## JIMinNC

Hi I'm new here said:


> Fifty thousand dollars up front then several thousand plus per year in maintenance fees-  the OP will have spent over $100,000 in a twenty year period for points that hold little to no value.



Actually, based on his numbers, and discounting inflation so we're looking at everything in constant dollars, over 20 years the OP will likely spend about $125,000. But that only equates to about $6,200 per year. With the almost 8000 points he will have, I think it will be fairly easy to squeeze over $6,200 of value out of his ownership - especially since the OP said he was probably not someone who would spend time sleuthing the internet for cheap rental deals from private owners.

Heck, the two weeks we're spending in Hilton Head this year would have cost us over $7,000, and the OP could book those same trips with 8000 points.


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## Hi I'm new here

My stance is to rent rather than buy.  I want all young people, including my millennial kids, to build their own wealth.  I want the OP and all young families to vacation together and make memories.

Whether I rent from an owner or whether you own a Marriott TS - the end product is really the same.  The TS unit I rented three years ago from a Waiohai owner was the same as the next door unit occupied by the "owner".  I just paid much much less for the same product. Different procurement.  I paid $2000 for the week and the "owner" shelled out huge amounts in upfront cost and yearly fees.  When he tires of the TS he probably won't recover much of what he paid.  

For us and other owners we met years ago the appeal wanes over time.  Kids lose interest and frankly I did too.  We wanted to show our kids more of the world.  

Rent from an owner, the process is easy. I don't expect seasoned posters to start doing this but newbies need to know how easy it is. You exchange a few emails or phone calls, mail in a check, check with Marriott to make sure your name is on the reservation. This is the alternative to shelling out big bucks to own some points.  Give it a try before you buy.


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## silentg

We have started exchanging thru TUG. Other timeshares for our timeshares. So far this has worked out very well. We just came back from Florida Beach Resort in Ft Lauderdale. We exchange our Punta Gorda week in January for a February week in Ft Lauderdale. Both sides were pleased with this. Last summer we exchanged for a week in Maui for our week in Ireland. Do others have any exchange stories to share doing this with other members? We still use RCI and II but this works out more economically for us.
Silentg


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## Quadmaniac

Well put and very true that renting is probably the most flexible option when most times you can rent for very little more than the MF, it doesn't make sense to buy as you would never come out ahead, especially when it comes to points. Even with the hybrid purchase at $7.50 a point or resale at say $5-6/point, it will take many many many trips (like 50-100x) to come out ahead buying points vs renting points. Current MF for points are $0.53 and renting points $0.50-60. At $0.50 you are paying less than owning the points. At $0.60 points, you still have to rent those points 100x (0.06) to break even with the resale point purchase. Add on top of that you never have to worry if you decide not to travel that year or wanted to travel more, you just rent more or less or none at all. There is never a worry about passing on the points or what happens if you pass away, what your estate will have to do to liquidate it. No commitment and a better deal.

I think it also needs to be said, even with thousands of points, it does not always guarantee you availability. You can be shut out of being able to book a reservation. 

We are well aware that JiminNC has issues with renting and the lack of control, but his concerns and fears are not shared by the vast majority of people as rentals occur all day long. Is there a potential to get scammed ? Absolutely, but there are precautions you can take and in most cases, you are dealing with honest owners looking to rent out their units. You can't paint everyone with the same brush. There will be honest and dishonest people no matter what deal or , but I believe if you do your homework, the chances are quite low.


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## BocaBoy

Hi I'm new here said:


> My stance is to rent rather than buy.


That is a far different discussion than what you started with, namely, that you can not fathom anyone buying from a developer.  And we could have the same discussion about renting versus buying one's primary residence.  I know that if we had always rented we would have more wealth today than we do after nearly 40 years of home ownership.  That doesn't always hold, depending on one's timing and the local market, but it often does.  It is really a lifestyle choice and many people feel better when they own.  Either approach is legitimate depending on the person.


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## Fasttr

BocaBoy said:


> I know that if we had always rented we would have more wealth today than we do after nearly 40 years of home ownership.


Would or wouldn't???


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## BocaBoy

Hi I'm new here said:


> I don't see the comparison to buying jewelry at Tiffanys to buying a Marriott TS.  Tiffany sells the finest diamonds, jewels,  collectibles that will hold value......Marriott TS are very nice but hardly in the luxury category of a Tiffanys.


The comparison is that Tiffany's sells jewelry for a lot more than its competitor would sell the same piece.  Marriott will sell its product directly for more than the same product will sell for in the private resale market.  People shop at Tiffany's for the service, the attention and the confidence that they enjoy.  People buy timeshares directly from Marriott for the same reasons.  And to your last point, although not really so relevant here, Tiffany's is the top of the jewelry store food chain, Marriott is the top of the timeshare food chain.  I think it is a good comparison in the context of this thread.


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## BocaBoy

Fasttr said:


> Would or wouldn't???


We would be wealthier if we had just rented.  We have spent a lot of money on nice houses but never enjoyed a fabulous real estate boom where we lived such as occurred in certain areas like California.  As a recent example, we recently sold our condominium residence of the past ten years and netted a bit less than we paid for it.  In the meantime, our monthly carrying costs were a lot more than rent.  Does that mean I regret owning it?  No, but in retrospect it was not objectively a great financial decision.  There is more to a buy/rent decision than just the raw numbers.


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## Fasttr

BocaBoy said:


> We would.  We have spent a lot of money on nice houses but never enjoyed a fabulous real estate bnoom where we lived like occurred in certain areas like California.  As an example, we recently sold our residence of the past ten years and netted a bit less than we paid for it.  Our monthly carrying costs were a lot more than rent.  Does that mean I regret owning it?  No, but it was not objectively a great financial decision.


Interesting.  I would agree that over the past 10 years or so, your experience is not likely unusual, but over a 40 year span, I would have bet money your post was a typo.


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## BocaBoy

Fasttr said:


> Interesting.  I would agree that over the past 10 years or so, your experience is not likely unusual, but over a 40 year span, I would have bet money your post was a typo.


Nope.  Mortgages.  High property taxes.  Moving at the wrong time.  Maintenance fees.  Special assessments.  Home repairs and redecorating.  Having your equity tied up, etc.  I am not saying we lost money, only that we would have spent less on a net basis by renting.  My main point here is that buying is attractive even if the numbers don't always work out, and owning a timeshare versus renting involves some of the same considerations.


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## Bnov

I've truly enjoyed this thread...  Thanks to all for the great contributions. This will be a great resource for people considering MVC purchases in the future.

For the OP, we bought a hybrid package almost five years ago.  We've had fantastic experiences with family members and friends at many great resorts in the Marriott system. I've kept a spreadsheet with our costs for ownership and the equivalent value of MVC stays when booking at the same time for the same type of villa. The total value of our stays surpassed the total cost of ownership in the past year. Your experience may differ.  We tend to travel off season, so we can get more out of our points than someone tied to high season rentals.  More importantly, we feel we have had fantastic vacation experiences because of the quality of the resorts, the staff, and the locations that we've shared as a couple and with our loved ones.


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## JIMinNC

Hi I'm new here said:


> My stance is to rent rather than buy.  I want all young people, including my millennial kids, to build their own wealth.  I want the OP and all young families to vacation together and make memories.
> 
> Whether I rent from an owner or whether you own a Marriott TS - the end product is really the same.  The TS unit I rented three years ago from a Waiohai owner was the same as the next door unit occupied by the "owner".  I just paid much much less for the same product. Different procurement.  I paid $2000 for the week and the "owner" shelled out huge amounts in upfront cost and yearly fees.  When he tires of the TS he probably won't recover much of what he paid.
> 
> For us and other owners we met years ago the appeal wanes over time.  Kids lose interest and frankly I did too.  We wanted to show our kids more of the world.
> 
> Rent from an owner, the process is easy. I don't expect seasoned posters to start doing this but newbies need to know how easy it is. You exchange a few emails or phone calls, mail in a check, check with Marriott to make sure your name is on the reservation. This is the alternative to shelling out big bucks to own some points.  Give it a try before you buy.



The only issue I take with what you are arguing are the blanket statements. I am 100% in agreement that the typical buyer who goes to a developer presentation and buys on the spot should rescind and study their alternatives in more depth. But what we're talking about here is the OP - GoldenVIKE - who clearly did his homework and appears to be able to afford what he has decided to do. In that case, I find his decision perfectly fine because it was an informed business decision based on his priorities and what he could afford. His decision may not be right for you, but after much study and consideration, he thinks it's right for him. Given the goals he laid out and the fact that he seemed to have similar concerns as I do about private owner transactions, I think that decision is probably the right one for him, as ours was for us. It may not be the right call for you, since you are obviously very comfortable with private transactions. But as Quadmaniac just said in post #191, "You can't paint everyone with the same brush."

When I give advice on the rent vs. buy decision here on TUG, I always preface my advice by saying if you are a person that is comfortable with owner rental transactions, then buying is probably never a good idea. If you're a bargain hunter willing to do what it takes to get a bargain, then you should never, ever think about buying points, maybe not even a resale timeshare week. There are better ways to find the ultimate low price vacation. At the same time, I will *always* point out the potential pitfalls of the owner rental approach, if for no other reason than to provide the newbie with a counter-point or alternative perspective than the "conventional" wisdom here on TUG, but I will always say that in the end, it really depends on what your priorities are, what you can afford, and where your comfort zone is. One size definitely does not fit all.

So I'm just reacting to the broad brush statements that say "Always rent from an owner" and to do otherwise means you're doing it wrong. If there is any one thing that bugs me about the advice given on TUG it is that point - a lack of recognition that not all newbies are uninformed and that what works for YOU works for ME. Also, remember getting the absolute lowest price is not the top priority for everyone. For some, flexibility, choices, and control in how the reservation is selected and booked are important as well. While you are correct the accommodations the renter and the "owner next door" have are the same, the process they went through to get that accommodation was different with respect to the factors I mentioned - flexibility, control, choice, etc.




Quadmaniac said:


> Well put and very true that renting is probably the most flexible option when most times you can rent for very little more than the MF, it doesn't make sense to buy as you would never come out ahead, especially when it comes to points. Even with the hybrid purchase at $7.50 a point or resale at say $5-6/point, it will take many many many trips (like 50-100x) to come out ahead buying points vs renting points. Current MF for points are $0.53 and renting points $0.50-60. At $0.50 you are paying less than owning the points. At $0.60 points, you still have to rent those points 100x (0.06) to break even with the resale point purchase. Add on top of that you never have to worry if you decide not to travel that year or wanted to travel more, you just rent more or less or none at all. There is never a worry about passing on the points or what happens if you pass away, what your estate will have to do to liquidate it. No commitment and a better deal.
> 
> I think it also needs to be said, even with thousands of points, it does not always guarantee you availability. You can be shut out of being able to book a reservation.



I agree with your comments as it relates to renting points. Frankly, the only reason we will ever seriously consider an additional points purchase beyond our current ownership (3375 Trust + Enrolled Points), is to get to Executive status so we can take advantage of the ability to book short stays at 12 or 13 months out instead of 10 months. I don't have the same concern about point rentals as I do week rentals because as soon as the point rental transaction is finalized, those are MY points and I can use them to book accommodations just like my owned points and I still control my reservations.



Quadmaniac said:


> We are well aware that JiminNC has issues with renting and the lack of control, but his concerns and fears are not shared by the vast majority of people as rentals occur all day long. Is there a potential to get scammed ? Absolutely, but there are precautions you can take and in most cases, you are dealing with honest owners looking to rent out their units. You can't paint everyone with the same brush. There will be honest and dishonest people no matter what deal or , but I believe if you do your homework, the chances are quite low.



I agree that private rental transactions are popular with most TUGgers and that I am in the minority here (but even in this thread, there were several TUGgers who expressed the same reluctance that I have), but I'm not sure that I agree that the "vast majority of people" do it that way. I have no hard data to support my belief, but I would almost be willing to bet that the total number of transactions done on sites like VRBO, HomeAway, Redweek, AirBNB, and other direct owner-to-renter sites pales in comparison to the number of more traditional bookings made on sites like marriott.com, hilton.com, orbitz.com, expedia.com, etc. In general, I think people are just more comfortable dealing with a company or a professional corporate booking site. No prepayment required; liberal cancellation privileges, etc.


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## JIMinNC

I just thought off another personal example that illustrates why some of us prefer to do business with companies that are in a particular business rather than a person-to-person transaction. A couple of years ago we bought our daughter a used car when she turned 16 and got her drivers license. We could have saved some money on a very similar car of the same model being sold by a private party, but I elected to buy one that cost a bit more from the used car department at a major new car dealer about an hour-and-a-half from where we live. About a month after we brought the car home, we noticed it was burning oil and the oil light started to come on. To make a long story short, we took it to a local dealer close to home and they found a major engine problem that required an engine replacement. It was not something that would have ever showed up in a pre-purchase inspection by the selling dealer. Our local shop had to tear into the engine before they found the problem. Even though there was no "certified used car" warranty with the car, we told the selling dealer what had happened, and they wound up helping us out a good bit on the cost of the new engine. They stood behind the product they sold and had the resources to do so. Had we bought from a private party we would have been on our own.

So that's a reason I prefer dealing with companies with resources in almost everything I do - if something goes wrong they have the resources to stand behind what they sell. A private renter may not have a way to "make it right" if they made an honest mistake that caused our reservation not to be there when we check in.


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## BocaBoy

JIMinNC said:


> I agree that private rental transactions are popular with most TUGgers and that I am in the minority here (but even in this thread, there were several TUGgers who expressed the same reluctance that I have), but I'm not sure that I agree that the "vast majority of people" do it that way. I have no hard data to support my belief, but I would almost be willing to bet that the total number of transactions done on sites like VRBO, HomeAway, Redweek, AirBNB, and other direct owner-to-renter sites pales in comparison to the number of more traditional bookings made on sites like marriott.com, hilton.com, orbitz.com, expedia.com, etc. In general, I think people are just more comfortable dealing with a company or a professional corporate booking site. No prepayment required; liberal cancellation privileges, etc.


I am sure you are right.  In the larger scheme of things, private timeshare rentals, especially from someone you do not know, are a drop in the bucket compared to the number renting on marriott.com, etc.  I also agree that points rentals are a lot different than renting a reservation because the transaction is finalized almost immediately and the points are then mine.  I only once rented a week privately, on Redweek.com, and it worked out fine, but I always had in the back of my mind that I could be getting scammed.  Although I knew it was unlikely that things would go south, I even had a back-up plan in case we arrived and the reservation had disappeared.  This was a week at a more modest Hawaii timeshare not available on the big hotel sites.  Although the price was extremely attractive, I would have paid more to reserve on such a site had that been possible.


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## Saintsfanfl

Hi I'm new here said:


> Some posters quote rack rate hotel prices and compare to a TS. In the era of Priceline , Hotwire, Hotel tonight, a myriad of discount and points programs who in the world pays rack rates?



99.9% of the worlds population. In other words, almost everybody. The discount sites you mention are similar to the leftover inventory on the exchange sites. You are not going to find something in high demand with limited supply offered to the world at a discount price.


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## Quilter

Golden, if you do go through with the hybrid package that has the Ocean Pointe week you should consider joining the OPnewsgroup.  https://beta.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/OPnewsgroup/info

There are 600+ owners in the group.  

For all-around MVC and timeshare discussions TUG is the place to be.  For direct contact with a lot of owners at your home resort the OPnewsgroup is very helpful.


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## Hi I'm new here

Some of the comparisons made to other products do not ring true to me.  Apples and oranges comparisons to jewelry stores and used cars are not relevant to me because the end product will not the same. 

Whether you rent from an owner or pay the big bucks to "own" a Marriott TS the end product at the chosen resort is exactly the same.  The units are the same, the weather will be the same, resort activities are open to everyone.  No one cares on site whether you rented or "own".  
We have never rented points, we always rent weeks from owners and the process is so easy.  There are so many weekly timeshare rentals available, lots of Marriotts.  Some people we know rent the same unit from the same owner over and over, a golf week in HHI late March early April.  

I agree this thread is most informative and it hit a nerve for many on both sides of the fence.


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## JIMinNC

Hi I'm new here said:


> Some of the comparisons made to other products do not ring true to me.  Apples and oranges comparisons to jewelry stores and used cars are not relevant to me because the end product will not the same.
> 
> Whether you rent from an owner or pay the big bucks to "own" a Marriott TS the end product at the chosen resort is exactly the same.  The units are the same, the weather will be the same, resort activities are open to everyone.  No one cares on site whether you rented or "own".
> We have never rented points, we always rent weeks from owners and the process is so easy.  There are so many weekly timeshare rentals available, lots of Marriotts.  Some people we know rent the same unit from the same owner over and over, a golf week in HHI late March early April.
> 
> I agree this thread is most informative and it hit a nerve for many on both sides of the fence.



I think you're missing the point some of us are trying to make. There's no argument with the fact that the END PRODUCT of a private party rental, a marriott.com rental, or a timeshare owner stay are all the same. But the end product is not the issue at all. The issue is the *PROCESS* for getting to the end product. Private party rentals offer the same PRODUCT but they differ greatly in PROCESS. Let me be specific:


For a booking via MVC points or a rental on Marriott.com, I have access to any MVC property from that *one source* with *one search process.* There is no single private party owner that can get me to all 60+ MVC locations. Even if I find a great owner that can rent me a Hilton Head week every year, I may have to find a new private party owner whenever I want to go somewhere else. The only exception to this would be finding a Points Owner who could book whatever I want with his/her points and then rent me a reservation.
Most private party listings are for full weeks. What if I want to stay for five days? Four days? What if I want to go to Florida and stay four nights at Ocean Pointe and three nights at the new MVC Pulse in South Beach? The only way to do that through a private party is the aforementioned method of having a Points owner make the reservation for me. 
As an owner, I can go online and search various dates, length of stay, and locations. I can customize the trip to exactly what I want - length of stay, view category, etc. I have more control over that process. Many times, I'll be browsing online and see something neat available and might consider booking it right there on the spot. When I go online, I don't always know what I'm looking for. Maybe I'll see something and that triggers an idea for a trip. I can shop for myself. But, if I decided to use another Points owner to do my bookings for me, I can't shop myself. I have to run everything through him/her. That could get very cumbersome for me...and that owner.
When I book online, I see what I want, click "book", and a few seconds or a minute later, I get a confirmation number. I'm set. With an owner rental, I have to email the owner, find out if it's still available, confirm/negotiate the price, remit payment, have them send me the confirmation, call Marriott to confirm the confirmation, etc. Booking it myself online is so much quicker, easier, and secure.
If I book direct through Marriott and there is a problem at check-in, Marriott is a big company with a number of avenues to make the situation right. That's why I used the example of the dealer used car purchase vs a private party sale - the big timeshare company (like the big car dealer) may have ways to offer restitution or compensation. If I book my trip from Maw & Paw Kettle, and they accidentally cancel the reservation or otherwise cause me a problem at check-in, there is very little Marriott can do for me. My "contract" was with Maw & Paw, not Marriott.
I have more peace of mind, knowing my reservation was booked by me with Marriott, and we are the only two parties involved in that transaction. There is no middleman.

Bottom line, some of us are willing to pay more for the simple online convenience and peace of mind we get from booking our own reservation instead of dealing with issues like those above that concern us in a private party transaction (sorta like buying a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk at the neighborhood convenience store instead of driving to the larger and cheaper grocery store - same product, but different buying process and a different price). Sure, it's more expensive to do it that way, but to some of us, the benefits are worth it.

Some people (like you, I assume), aren't really bothered by issues like the six I noted above, so they are mainly concerned with getting the timeshare/condo for the lowest price they can. As a result, these folks will usually be able to travel cheaper than us. That's great. They get what they want at a price they are comfortable with. We pay more, but we have the satisfaction and peace of mind that we don't have to deal with issues like the six I listed.


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## GoldenVIKE

In addition to improving our deal to the point that we got a market-competitive ownership stake in MVCI (huge debt of gratitude to all!), it's been fun and educational to learn the different types of TS users, and some of the pros and cons associated with each.  It looks to me like there are a few broad buckets:

1. Rent, Rent, Rent (great for bargain hunters, folks with a lot of time, a lot of tolerance for P2P transactions, and willingness to bear some risk - probably the lowest cost, lowest commitment way to go)
2. Weeks (great if you want to go to the same place most years and/or if you share some of the "Renter" attributes and want to do some trading, and of course will tolerate the process of waiting weeks or months for exchanges to go through)
3. Points (premium experience - that means it's expensive but gets you ultimate autonomy and flexibility including access to any unit anywhere before the rest of the world gets access to it, the ability to stay whatever duration you want (2 nights, 7 nights, 23 nights, whatever), and the simplest process of making, changing, or canceling plans; with little to none of the stress, constraints, time commitments, or risk involved in renting or exchanging.

I actually like the other industry comparisons.  Whether it's MVCI, Delta/American, Tiffany, luxury vehicles, or owning a nice home vs. renting, there are arguments to be made for things or their more economical alternatives.


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## bazzap

GoldenVIKE said:


> In addition to improving our deal to the point that we got a market-competitive ownership stake in MVCI (huge debt of gratitude to all!), it's been fun and educational to learn the different types of TS users, and some of the pros and cons associated with each.  It looks to me like there are a few broad buckets:
> 
> 1. Rent, Rent, Rent (great for bargain hunters, folks with a lot of time, a lot of tolerance for P2P transactions, and willingness to bear some risk - probably the lowest cost, lowest commitment way to go)
> 2. Weeks (great if you want to go to the same place most years and/or if you share some of the "Renter" attributes and want to do some trading, and of course will tolerate the process of waiting weeks or months for exchanges to go through)
> 3. Points (premium experience - that means it's expensive but gets you ultimate autonomy and flexibility including access to any unit anywhere before the rest of the world gets access to it, the ability to stay whatever duration you want (2 nights, 7 nights, 23 nights, whatever), and the simplest process of making, changing, or canceling plans; with little to none of the stress, constraints, time commitments, or risk involved in renting or exchanging.
> 
> I actually like the other industry comparisons.  Whether it's MVCI, Delta/American, Tiffany, luxury vehicles, or owning a nice home vs. renting, there are arguments to be made for things or their more economical alternatives.


I would agree that renting, weeks and points all have their own pros and cons and will suit different people in different ways.

For me, I value a combination of them, so
I own weeks (which I use or exchange through Interval)
I have enrolled my weeks in the DC Points programme (electing these sometimes, where points work best for extending my weeks or for low points requirement or difficult to get into resorts)
I rent (be that through Interval Getaways or other methods)

I don't believe Points alone offer ultimate autonomy and flexibility though, as with weeks
I am guaranteed getting into my resorts in my seasons
I can lock off several of my resort weeks for extended stays
I can reserve multiple weeks at 13 months out from the earliest week I request, so effectively reserving more than 13 months out.
***
Also, at many resorts, home weeks owners receive priority on villa allocations.
***
I place a fair value on all these benefits.


----------



## BocaBoy

Hi I'm new here said:


> Some of the comparisons made to other products do not ring true to me.  Apples and oranges comparisons to jewelry stores and used cars are not relevant to me because the end product will not the same.


Saying the end product is different does not make it so.  All these comparisons assumed the purchase of an identical product from alternative sources.  For a given car make and model, where should you buy it?  For a given type of ring or bracelet, where should you buy it?  For a given timeshare product, where should you buy it?


----------



## BocaBoy

Hi I'm new here said:


> Whether you rent from an owner or pay the big bucks to "own" a Marriott TS the end product at the chosen resort is exactly the same.  The units are the same, the weather will be the same, resort activities are open to everyone.  *No one cares on site whether you rented or "own".*


We care---we have a somewhat different feeling when we go to "our" own property.  Actually, however, there can be other differences too.  An owner at a property is likely to get a much better unit placement than a non-owner.  An owner may get free parking at certain resorts (e.g., BeachPlace) where others have to pay for parking, and at Ko Olina (maybe others too) they typically waive parking fees for owners staying on MR points or cash.  Sometimes there is an event or room open only to owners.  Not all big things but the product is not 100% identical in all cases.  Often this would not even be apparent to a renter.


----------



## Jason245

GoldenVIKE said:


> My wife and I (33, 36 yo) with 2 kids (1, 2 yo) just joined MVCI (4,000 points level) mostly to realize financial benefits over time (including in retirement in the distant future), but also for some of the intangible benefits the club offers like access to bigger villas, broader experiences, etc.
> 
> Part of our decision to buy was based on financial analysis.  I'd like to lay this out to you experienced TS users and see if we're missing anything, or if any of the assumptions I'm making may not be accurate.  We're within our 10-day review period so we could still back out...
> 
> *Booking Value of a Point*
> First, practically all calculations hinge on how much annual "value" we're going to get out of the points on an annual basis in terms of booking vacations.  I understand that this can vary greatly, but based on 50 internet comparisons of how much it'd cost to book various MVC villas through the internet, vs. how much they cost to book with DC points, it looks like assuming about $1.50 per point per year is a reasonable target.  (For example, using 4,000 points should be the rough equivalent of spending $6,000 on the open market, and 6000/4000=$1.50)  The _average_ was actually $1.21 across the 50 searches but valued-minded owners can skew that upward.  Still, I ran numbers at $1.50 and $1.20 just to get a range.
> 
> *Owner Up-Front Acquisition Costs*
> Second, the way ownership is acquired is a big factor too.  In doing a little research on the internet we decided to buy through Marriott rather than go resale because (a) it seems a hell of a lot easier and our time is valuable, and (b) the ultimate cost per point that you pay (after Marriott's incentives w/ direct and after junk fees with resale) is about the same.  To buy resale looks like you'll be a little over $7 per point after you pass ROFR w/ a $5+ bid, and after you pay the transfer, education, closing, and other junk fees.  Our all-in cost per point was $7.56 after incentives.  Those included (a) 20% discount off of the $13.32 starting price (b) $999 reimbursement of our presentation trip (c) $1750 bonus due to adding an extra day onto our presentation trip (subtract $400) - you have to ask special for this (d) 4,000 bonus points for signing up at presentation - valued at $6,000 (e) 4,000 more bonus points for financing 70% of the purchase, which are net valued at $3,566 considering interest fees and tax deduction in the 18 months required to carry the loan for the bonus (f) $1,660 value of putting all up-front costs on Marriott Rewards card for 5x points, and (g) $1,180 closing costs.  In summary depending on exactly how much you get resale points for, (using $4.50 to $5.00 range before junk fees) and assuming an annual booking value of $1.20 to $1.50 per point, the potential savings for going resale is around 2-15% (see below).  Not worth the headache to us.  Note that the math would be different at different levels of ownership.
> 
> Point:     @$4.50     @$5.00
> $1.20:    -15.18%    -9.02%
> $1.30:    -13.15%    -6.85%
> $1.40:    -11.02%    -4.56%
> $1.50:    -8.78%      -2.16%
> 
> *Calculating the Value of MVC Ownership*
> There are several ways to calculate return on a potential investment and I looked at just about all of them...
> 
> Perpetual Bond: 7.7% to 12.2% return on investment
> Taking the future marginal value of the booking value of a point, over the maintenance and ownership fees yeilds $0.62 (@ $1.20) to $0.92 (@ $1.50) in net value per point per year.  In the $1.50 per point example, that's $1.50 - $0.53 annual maintenance fee - $0.05 annual dues ($185 / 4,000 points) per point.  Simply dividing the annual "return" on a point into the initial "investment" in that point is a simple calculation of interest as if it were a perpetual bond.
> 
> Internal 30-year Rate of Return: 6.1% to 11.5% return on investment
> This method looks at all future cash flows and then finds the interest rate that would make the net present value $0.  The range of results for our particular situation is 6.1% (at $1.20/point) to 10.4% (at $1.50/point).  Add about a point to that if you successfully acquired a resale allotment of points at a discount vs. buying from Marriott direct.  Note that this method doesn't contemplate some big things, including (a) the inflation hedge benefit of MVC ownership, (b) any residual value at 30 years, meaning that if the ownership still has value or can be re-sold for any amount at the end of the 30 year period, that's just a bonus.
> 
> Breakeven exit period: 3-7 years
> The amount of time it'd take to be able to realize a break-even proposition when netting out (a) upfront costs (b) future savings and (c) cash-out in this case assuming the ability to sell at $4 per point in the resale market.  Buying direct from Marriott range is 4-7 years, with 3 years possible if you get a good resale deal and realize $1.50 annual booking value per point.
> 
> Payback period: 8-12 years
> Similar to the above, but assuming you're not going to sell and exit, it'd take a little longer to reach the point at which the total amount you've paid is equal to the total market value of the travel that you've booked through MVCI.  Shave a year off both ends if you score a great deal on a resale.  It's interesting to note that this goes to 20 years if the booking value per point drops to $1.00.
> 
> Cumulative Net Value: possibly over $100,000
> In taking the cumulative net values of all incoming and outgoing cash, and not discounting or adjusting for inflation due to an assumption that while the cost of maintenance will go up over time, so will the cost of travel in general (they net each other out), here's the estimated net value at various milestones (looking at buying direct from Marriott only, as the additional value gained from scoring a good resale stake is minimal)
> 
> Time         @$1.20    @1.50
> 1 year       -$9,044    -$3,124
> 5 years      -$4,034    $4,246
> 10 years    $8,441      $22,721
> 20 years    $33,391    $59,671
> 30 years    $58,341    $96,621
> .... and it'd keep going up from here
> 
> Cumulative Relative Discount: 20-40% cheaper travel for long-term MCVI owners
> Using the same math as the payback period, this compares the total you've spent vs. the market value of all of your travel at various points in time, to calculate the cumulative effective discount (or premium) you've had on your travel due to being a MVCI owner.  Here are some examples at various milestones...
> 
> Time         @$1.20    @1.50
> 5 years      +49.7%   +26.1% (the + means you're paying more in the early years)
> 10 years    +10.3%    - 9.0%
> 20 years    - 16.9%    - 32.4%
> 30 years    - 27.6%    - 41.4%
> .... and the discount would keep going in the same direction
> 
> Financial Summary
> The stuff above made this a pretty easy decision for us, or at least easily justifiable from a financial perspective.  Of course it all falls apart of the average booking value of a point goes down though.  For example, if it falls to $1.00 then the payback period becomes 20 years and the IRR falls to 2.7%-3.9%; so it's really important that we continue to be able to book trips for fewer DC points than it'd cost $USD to book outside of the MVCI structure.  This is why I'm very interested to hear your actual experience and perceived booking value of a DC point.
> 
> *Intangible Benefits*
> And of course there are many cherries on top.  I've been a frequent Marriott traveler w/ lifetime gold status, and enjoy and trust the brand.  The ability to get early access to booking very desirable 2 and 3-br villas is going to be great for our family. As is the fact that being part of MVCI makes it easier and less awkward to invite friends and family to just come along, since everything is paid for already anyway (close enough).  Not to mention other perks and experiences through Interval International, Homes, Cruises, MVP discounted bookings, etc.  Plus just having something that psychologically feels like we're building wealth, having fun, and being part of a club; and ultimately can pass this down to our kids -- all of that stuff is truly icing on the cake to use a second dessert analogy in the same paragraph.
> 
> Anyway, if you've made it this far through this rambling post--uhh--thank you?!  Sorry?!  I'd love to hear feedback though to help us confirm whether we've made a good choice or not.  How do you all feel about being MVCI members?  Any regrets?  Feeling the value?  Thanks!
> 
> PS: Kudos to our TS Sales Rep w/ MVCI Allen Larkin.  He was very transparent, forthcoming, and helpful.  I'd recommend him to anyone that wants to learn more about MVCI.


So basically it will take you 8 to 12 years to break even based on your math. 

I am not looking at all the funny math, but it seems like a bad deal to me by my simple business sense. 

Also, 1 special assessment and your calculations are broken and MF historically go up higher than rental rates..


It looks like you created a justification to buy. Nothing wrong with that but in terms of payback/breakeven,  anything more than 2 years is usually a bad deal.

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## JIMinNC

GoldenVIKE said:


> 3. Points (premium experience - that means it's expensive but gets you ultimate autonomy and flexibility including *access to any unit anywhere before the rest of the world gets access to it*, the ability to stay whatever duration you want (2 nights, 7 nights, 23 nights, whatever), and the simplest process of making, changing, or canceling plans; with little to none of the stress, constraints, time commitments, or risk involved in renting or exchanging.



I like your buckets, but will offer one clarification to the statement bolded above.

Points owners don't really get access to any unit before everyone else. While the detail behind the inventory assignment process used by MVCI is somewhat opaque, what we do know from the legal governing documents that support the program is that you can think of it as two buckets of inventory:

*The Weeks Bucket.* This includes traditional MVCI weeks which are NOT enrolled in the Destination Club, plus those which are enrolled, but the owner elects not to convert their week to points in any given year. These weeks are available to owners to book at their home resort for use, or to deposit to Interval International for trading purposes. Weeks owners are competing only with other weeks owners for the inventory in this bucket. Reservations can be made at 12 months, or 13 months for multi-week owners. 
_*The Points Bucket.*_ This includes all weeks owned by the MVC Trust (which is the inventory that backs up the Points you are buying), plus the weeks that Weeks-based owners "elect" for points in any given year. These "elected" weeks are deposited into an entity referred to as the MVC Exchange Company. (There are also other ways weeks may find their way into the Exchange company, such as weeks owners convert to Marriott Rewards points might be put into the Exchange Company by MVCI.) Under the program rules, the inventory in the MVC Trust is available for booking ONLY by other Trust Points (like those 4,000 you own now). Trust owners also have access to the inventory deposited into the MVC Exchange Company. Enrolled owners who do not own Trust points can only access the inventory in the MVC Exchange Company. In actual practice, however, the weeks owned by the MVC Trust usually get deposited into the MVC Exchange Company sometime very early in the reservation window, making them available to ALL points - both Trust and Enrolled/Elected - at that point. Points reservations can be made at 13 months out (the lowest level owners pay a 20% premium to book prior to 12 months out), but not all of the inventory gets released at 13 months. MVCI holds back at least half and saves it for the 12 month release date.
So, bottom line - weeks inventory stays in the Weeks bucket and can only be claimed by other weeks owners. Points inventory stays in the Points bucket and can only be claimed by Points.


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## GoldenVIKE

Jason245 said:


> So basically it will take you 8 to 12 years to break even based on your math.
> 
> I am not looking at all the funny math, but it seems like a bad deal to me by my simple business sense.
> 
> Also, 1 special assessment and your calculations are broken and MF historically go up higher than rental rates..
> 
> 
> It looks like you created a justification to buy. Nothing wrong with that but in terms of payback/breakeven,  anything more than 2 years is usually a bad deal.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



Setting the whole timeshare debate to the side for a moment, your simple business sense seems to be _exceptionally_ simple!  If everyone shared your logic then literally businesses would not exist.


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## JIMinNC

Jason245 said:


> So basically it will take you 8 to 12 years to break even based on your math.
> 
> I am not looking at all the funny math, but it seems like a bad deal to me by my simple business sense.
> 
> Also, 1 special assessment and your calculations are broken and MF historically go up higher than rental rates..
> 
> 
> It looks like you created a justification to buy. Nothing wrong with that but in terms of payback/breakeven,  anything more than 2 years is usually a bad deal.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



I disagree that you have to get a 2-year payback or it's a bad business deal. For someone who is in their 30's, as the OP is, it's a potentially very long-term ownership. He may own and use this for 30-40 years or longer. So an 8-12 year breakeven still leaves 25-30 years where he should be "in the black." While it's certainly possible with a resale purchase of a traditional week to get a 2-year payback or less, it's been well established in the 211 posts that precede this one that the traditional weeks system may not work well for the OP.

I did some research a while back in another thread, and over the long term, hotel lodging rates have increased at 3% to 5% annually, very similar to the rate of Marriott maintenance fee increases. While the underlying economic factors that drive rates and maintenance fees are somewhat different, for the purposes of a rent vs buy comparison, comparing the two is relevant. In fact if you compare BocaBoy's rate in 1973 of $45/night at the Royal Hawaiian (post #168) to the current rate around $350-$400/night, that comes out to an average annual rate of increase of about 4.5% to 5%.

Special assessments are fairly rare in the Marriott system because it tends to be well managed. There are exceptions like the recent Hurricane Matthew assessment in Hilton Head (one time $75 bucks at Barony). Hilton Head's Monarch also has a current assessment spread over 2 or 3 years for some renovations/repairs not included in the reserves - but these assessments would likely not have a material impact on a 20-40 year ownership pro forma (as long as they didn't happen often).


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## Jason245

GoldenVIKE said:


> Setting the whole timeshare debate to the side for a moment, your simple business sense seems to be _exceptionally_ simple!  If everyone shared your logic then literally businesses would not exist.


That is the walmart model(but what the heck do they know). 

I have done this with hgvc timeshares successfully.  (Payback in rental savings vs mf in less than 8 months). 

You also never took into account the opportunity cost of the cash you used for buy in (e.g. the interest you would have got on your "investment ").







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## Saintsfanfl

Jason245 said:


> So basically it will take you 8 to 12 years to break even based on your math.
> 
> I am not looking at all the funny math, but it seems like a bad deal to me by my simple business sense.
> 
> Also, 1 special assessment and your calculations are broken and MF historically go up higher than rental rates..
> 
> 
> It looks like you created a justification to buy. Nothing wrong with that but in terms of payback/breakeven,  anything more than 2 years is usually a bad deal.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



There can't be a special assessment on the points. It would be extremely watered down and part of the annual increase. A special assessment at Ocean Pointe is unlikely but if it did happen the OP would still be ahead vs straight points.

A bad deal from a business sense is not correct from the OP's perspective. He is not doing it for any business purpose and he doesn't have an acceptable alternative to getting the same or the equivalent. I think it's a fair deal for his purposes. He may feel differently if he doesn't have the time to figure out what to book and where but that will have to come later.


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## JIMinNC

Jason245 said:


> That is the walmart model(but what the heck do they know).
> 
> I have done this with hgvc timeshares successfully.  (Payback in rental savings vs mf in less than 8 months).
> 
> You also never took into account the opportunity cost of the cash you used for buy in (e.g. the interest you would have got on your "investment ").
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



We're not saying it's impossible to get a less than two year payback, just that if the purchase that gets you the short payback doesn't meet your needs, then THAT is the definition of a bad business deal.


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## Jason245

JIMinNC said:


> I disagree that you have to get a 2-year payback or it's a bad business deal. For someone who is in their 30's, as the OP is, it's a potentially very long-term ownership. He may own and use this for 30-40 years or longer. So an 8-12 year breakeven still leaves 25-30 years where he should be "in the black." While it's certainly possible with a resale purchase of a traditional week to get a 2-year payback or less, it's been well established in the 211 posts that precede this one that the traditional weeks system may not work well for the OP.
> 
> I did some research a while back in another thread, and over the long term, hotel lodging rates have increased at 3% to 5% annually, very similar to the rate of Marriott maintenance fee increases. While the underlying economic factors that drive rates and maintenance fees are somewhat different, for the purposes of a rent vs buy comparison, comparing the two is relevant. In fact if you compare BocaBoy's rate in 1973 of $45/night at the Royal Hawaiian (post #168) to the current rate around $350-$400/night, that comes out to an average annual rate of increase of about 4.5% to 5%.
> 
> Special assessments are fairly rare in the Marriott system because it tends to be well managed. There are exceptions like the recent Hurricane Matthew assessment in Hilton Head (one time $75 bucks at Barony). Hilton Head's Monarch also has a current assessment spread over 2 or 3 years for some renovations/repairs not included in the reserves - but these assessments would likely not have a material impact on a 20-40 year ownership pro forma (as long as they didn't happen often).


I am in my 30s.. and it wouldn't matter if I was in my 20s or in my 60s.  Life happens.. divorce,  illness,  unemployment,  economic downturn etc.. 

If you can predict your family and financial situation and economic and heath one for 10 years from now god bless you are a much better fortune teller than me.  

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## Fasttr

JIMinNC said:


> I like your buckets, but will offer one clarification to the statement bolded above.
> 
> Points owners don't really get access to any unit before everyone else. While the detail behind the inventory assignment process used by MVCI is somewhat opaque, what we do know from the legal governing documents that support the program is that you can think of it as two buckets of inventory:
> 
> *The Weeks Bucket.* This includes traditional MVCI weeks which are NOT enrolled in the Destination Club, plus those which are enrolled, but the owner elects not to convert their week to points in any given year. These weeks are available to owners to book at their home resort for use, or to deposit to Interval International for trading purposes. Weeks owners are competing only with other weeks owners for the inventory in this bucket. Reservations can be made at 12 months, or 13 months for multi-week owners.
> _*The Points Bucket.*_ This includes all weeks owned by the MVC Trust (which is the inventory that backs up the Points you are buying), plus the weeks that Weeks-based owners "elect" for points in any given year. These "elected" weeks are deposited into an entity referred to as the MVC Exchange Company. (There are also other ways weeks may find their way into the Exchange company, such as weeks owners convert to Marriott Rewards points might be put into the Exchange Company by MVCI.) Under the program rules, the inventory in the MVC Trust is available for booking ONLY by other Trust Points (like those 4,000 you own now). Trust owners also have access to the inventory deposited into the MVC Exchange Company. Enrolled owners who do not own Trust points can only access the inventory in the MVC Exchange Company. In actual practice, however, the weeks owned by the MVC Trust usually get deposited into the MVC Exchange Company sometime very early in the reservation window, making them available to ALL points - both Trust and Enrolled/Elected - at that point. Points reservations can be made at 13 months out (the lowest level owners pay a 20% premium to book prior to 12 months out), *but not all of the inventory gets released at 13 months. MVCI holds back at least half and saves it for the 12 month release date.*
> So, bottom line - weeks inventory stays in the Weeks bucket and can only be claimed by other weeks owners. Points inventory stays in the Points bucket and can only be claimed by Points.


A couple points to clarify....

Regarding your comment that I have bolded above, which is _"but not all of the inventory gets released at 13 months. MVCI holds back at least half and saves it for the 12 month release date."_....

Per the Exchange Company docs, this is what it actually says...
_Exchange Company may limit the Use Periods and the Accommodations on a Component-by-Component basis that are available for reservation during the Priority 1 Period, and may withhold up to fifty percent (50%) of the Use Periods and Accommodations at any particular Component for reservation during other Reservation Windows, all as determined from time to time in Exchange Company’s sole discretion.
_
Just clarifying that there is a big difference between "at least half" and "up to 50%".  One means at least half will be saved, when in reality, zero could be saved.

Its also worth noting that also available to The Points Bucket as you have described it, is MVC's ability to pull needed inventory from Interval International in order to fill a reservation request.


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## Jason245

JIMinNC said:


> We're not saying it's impossible to get a less than two year payback, just that if the purchase that gets you the short payback doesn't meet your needs, then THAT is the definition of a bad business deal.


No purchase is better than a bad one.  Better to hold your cash and wait.. earn interest on it and rent until the right deal appears that meets those criteria. .

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## JIMinNC

Thanks for the clarification. I think the assumption is that, in practice, they limit the inventory available at 13 months, since availability SEEMS to always get better at 12 months, but you are correct as to what the rules allow.


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## Saintsfanfl

So then you unload and move on. I realize it might not be the wisest approach for most people but I don't think it's that big of a deal. Many tuggers started out paying quite a bit for their timeshares but I don't think many regret it. 




Jason245 said:


> I am in my 30s.. and it wouldn't matter if I was in my 20s or in my 60s.  Life happens.. divorce,  illness,  unemployment,  economic downturn etc..
> 
> If you can predict your family and financial situation and economic and heath one for 10 years from now god bless you are a much better fortune teller than me.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk[/QUOTE


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## Saintsfanfl

Jason245 said:


> No purchase is better than a bad one.  Better to hold your cash and wait.. earn interest on it and rent until the right deal appears that meets those criteria. .
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



The OP made it clear they would not be interested in prepaying up front to an unknown party. Their alternative would be marriott.com. Easy, no prepayment, and full cancellation ability.


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## JIMinNC

Jason245 said:


> No purchase is better than a bad one.  Better to hold your cash and wait.. earn interest on it and rent until the right deal appears that meets those criteria. .
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



Have you read all of the 200+ posts that preceded? We've debated the rent vs buy decision ad naseum as it relates to the OP's needs. Resale weeks (where the 2 yr payback bargains are) didn't work for the OP. The OP wanted Points. Resale Marriott Points are still expensive. For Marriott Points, he got a decent deal.


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## Jason245

Saintsfanfl said:


> The OP made it clear they would not be interested in prepaying up front to an unknown party. Their alternative would be marriott.com. Easy, no prepayment, and full cancellation ability.


Marriott . com is a rental

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## JIMinNC

Jason245 said:


> Marriott . com is a rental
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



Yes. But they are very expensive. Compared to booking on Marriott.com, Points ownership is a good deal.


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## dioxide45

I would expect some type of payback on the "investment" withink 5 to 10 years. If it would take you 20 years to break even, you are far better off just doing what one is already doing. Who knows what will happen in 20 years. One thing is known, if the economy tanks, hotel rates do drop, but MFs continue to increase. That was seen in the last recession. Hotel rates don't increase in lock-step with MFs.


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## dioxide45

Saintsfanfl said:


> So then you unload and move on. I realize it might not be the wisest approach for most people but I don't think it's that big of a deal. Many tuggers started out paying quite a bit for their timeshares but I don't think many regret it.


The important thing is using it. I think most people that are unhappy with timeshare, simply don't use their timeshare. If they take some time to learn how to use it, they are usually very happy with the product.

However, you simply won't find a single financial adviser (TV or otherwise) who suggests buying a timeshare. Though they are talking to the masses, and for people who go on a vacation once every few years, timeshare simply doesn't work. I know some people at work who haven't been on a vacation like we have in all the time that I have worked with them (15+ years). Many people when they travel stay with family or friends and have $0 in lodging costs. Timeshare doesn't work for them either.


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## Jason245

JIMinNC said:


> Yes. But they are very expensive. Compared to booking on Marriott.com, Points ownership is a good deal.


Travel insurance is cheaper than buying a ts.
And anyone willing to come up with that type of math is just rationalizing. (No offense I have been there myself).

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## JIMinNC

Jason245 said:


> Travel insurance is cheaper than buying a ts.
> And anyone willing to come up with that type of math is just rationalizing. (No offense I have been there myself).
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



We'll have to agree to disagree on that. As I outlined in a post last night, there are lots of reasons to want to own vs rent that travel insurance can't help with.

What works for you may not work for us all. Don't project your values and preferences onto others.

It's 72 degrees in Feb. I'm going to play golf....


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## Jason245

dioxide45 said:


> I would expect some type of payback on the "investment" withink 5 to 10 years. If it would take you 20 years to break even, you are far better off just doing what one is already doing. Who knows what will happen in 20 years. One thing is known, if the economy tanks, hotel rates do drop, but MFs continue to increase. That was seen in the last recession. Hotel rates don't increase in lock-step with MFs.


So you would be willing to put 10s of thousands of your money in an "investment" where you are cash flow negative for a decade(won't earn anything on it for 10 years and if you sell before that time you will get less than face back) even while inflation eats away at the principal?  



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## Jason245

JIMinNC said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree on that. As I outlined in a post last night, there are lots of reasons to want to own vs rent that travel insurance can't help with.
> 
> What works for you may not work for us all. Don't project your values and preferences onto others.
> 
> It's 72 degrees in Feb. I'm going to play golf....


As long as you are happy at end of day that is all that matters.

I am going to the beach In a few hours myself. 

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## GregT

Jason245 said:


> So you would be willing to put 10s of thousands of your money in an "investment" where you are cash flow negative for a decade(won't earn anything on it for 10 years and if you sell before that time you will get less than face back) even while inflation eats away at the principal?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


Yes, I would, and I would do again.  The return that I am getting is not financial and it is priceless.

Your points are very valid -- from a strict financial perspective.

The points made by others are equally valid, but must be viewed through a different lens.  Some value control.  Some value pride of ownership.  Some value knowing that they will return again and again and again.   Renting plays an important role, no doubt, but so does ownership.

OP is at peace with his decision and the hybrid purchase certainly improved the financial metrics.  I am happy for him -- trusting that the purchase does not create a financial strain -- and hope he has many happy years of timeshare ownership with his family, and many happy memories coming.   I just came back  from my 78th vacation since 2005, 60 in timeshares.    This one was with my son on the Big Island (HGVC Kings Land) and it was spectacular.   The one on one time was priceless, and listening to the stories that he recounted to our Uber driver on the way home were something I will remember for a long time.

And I couldn't have  made this trip possible without timeshares.  I couldn't have accomplished my trip through renting.   I made three different HGVC reservations about 6 months ago, because I didn't know what week in February I could actually travel, do to work complications.   So I made the three reservations, planning to cancel two and it wasn't until early January that I knew which week I would travel.  So there is a value to canceling reservations too... 

Best,

Greg


----------



## SueDonJ

I will never understand why some TUGgers insist on trying to convince others that the only correct ownership of a timeshare is as a financial investment vehicle, and that means they must be purchased as inexpensively as possible and used as cost-effectively as possible.  That's the justification some have to satisfy for themselves in order to own timeshares.  All well and good for them, but some others of us simply bought to use and we're happy as long as our timeshares are giving us the value we expected.

I'm married to a tax professional who spreadsheets the hell out of life and looks for dollar implications in the phases of the moon.  During the early years he searched out bargains on everything we ever purchased and insisted that we prioritize cost over ever other factor, only to learn (as Jim did) that the convenience and protections afforded by a direct vendor can be many times more valuable than upfront dollars saved.  When we started looking at timeshares we both decided we'd deal directly with Marriott, we'd purchase at specific resorts for usage there rather than exchanging, and we wouldn't overspend what we'd budgeted upfront.  That's exactly what we've done and we've never regretted our decision, despite knowing that others have done the same things via fewer dollars.  We have NEVER during a timeshare stay looked around at all the other people wondering how our costs compare to theirs.  We simply don't care about other people's budgets and spending habits.

ANYBODY with even the slightest money sense will tell you that timeshares are not a practical monetary investment.  They'll tell you that if you learn all the ropes and have time to devote to property management you might be able to make money through ownership, but the products themselves and the management model will always be subject to fluctuations that can/will adversely affect your bottom line.  For investment purposes we carefully investigate and use products designed for that specific need.  Our timeshares don't fit that bill, and that's okay.


----------



## Fasttr

Jason245 said:


> You also never took into account the opportunity cost of the cash you used for buy in (e.g. the interest you would have got on your "investment.



I believe the OP has, but perhaps you are not understanding his analytical approach.

Here is another way to look at it from the OP’s perspective of comparing his purchase to booking on Marriott.com.  I offer up one example from the middle of the value curve from the OP's list of examples he provided in a later post....

_Surf Club Aruba December Week 2-bd Oceanview 3500 4505 $1.29_
With 3500 being the points needed to secure the ressie and 4505 being the cost in cash it would take to secure that ressie if booked on Marriott.com

So lets look at it this way.  To buy those 3500 points, the OP feels he will be all in around the $7 per point mark, so let’s call it a $24,500 investment to cover those 3500 points

The annual MF’s on those 3500 points is approx. $1855.

So OP’s upfront investment of $24,500 saved him the difference between paying $4505 and paying the $1855 he paid in annual MF costs to secure that specific ressie.

$4505-$1855 = $2650 annual outlay savings to secure that specific ressie. 

So OP’s investment of $24,500 returned $2650 for him, or about 10.8% return on that initial investment.

By using an example in the middle of his range (of course some deals are better and some are worse), I feel I am using a reasonable example.

Again, I am comparing his rate of return to Marriott.com, as he has justified in numerous posts, is the benchmark to be used for HIS investment decision, as he would not be a Redweek renter, so any example comparing to that source of reservations for HIM is not viable.


----------



## Jason245

SueDonJ said:


> I will never understand why some TUGgers insist on trying to convince others that the only correct ownership of a timeshare is as a financial investment vehicle, and that means they must be purchased as inexpensively as possible and used as cost-effectively as possible.  That's the justification some have to satisfy for themselves in order to own timeshares.  All well and good for them, but some others of us simply bought to use and we're happy as long as our timeshares are giving us the value we expected.
> 
> I'm married to a tax professional who spreadsheets the hell out of life and looks for dollar implications in the phases of the moon.  During the early years he searched out bargains on everything we ever purchased and insisted that we prioritize cost over ever other factor, only to learn (as Jim did) that the convenience and protections afforded by a direct vendor can be many times more valuable than upfront dollars saved.  When we started looking at timeshares we both decided we'd deal directly with Marriott, we'd purchase at specific resorts for usage there rather than exchanging, and we wouldn't overspend what we'd budgeted upfront.  That's exactly what we've done and we've never regretted our decision, despite knowing that others have done the same things via fewer dollars.  We have NEVER during a timeshare stay looked around at all the other people wondering how our costs compare to theirs.  We simply don't care about other people's budgets and spending habits.
> 
> ANYBODY with even the slightest money sense will tell you that timeshares are not a practical monetary investment.  They'll tell you that if you learn all the ropes and have time to devote to property management you might be able to make money through ownership, but the products themselves and the management model will always be subject to fluctuations that can/will adversely affect your bottom line.  For investment purposes we carefully investigate and use products designed for that specific need.  Our timeshares don't fit that bill, and that's okay.


For me it is more about loss mitigation than getting best deal. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## davidvel

JIMinNC said:


> I like your buckets, but will offer one clarification to the statement bolded above.
> 
> Points owners don't really get access to any unit before everyone else. While the detail behind the inventory assignment process used by MVCI is somewhat opaque, what we do know from the legal governing documents that support the program is that you can think of it as two buckets of inventory:
> 
> *The Weeks Bucket.* This includes traditional MVCI weeks which are NOT enrolled in the Destination Club, plus those which are enrolled, but the owner elects not to convert their week to points in any given year. These weeks are available to owners to book at their home resort for use, or to deposit to Interval International for trading purposes. Weeks owners are competing only with other weeks owners for the inventory in this bucket. Reservations can be made at 12 months, or 13 months for multi-week owners.
> _*The Points Bucket.*_ This includes all weeks owned by the MVC Trust (which is the inventory that backs up the Points you are buying), plus the weeks that Weeks-based owners "elect" for points in any given year. These "elected" weeks are deposited into an entity referred to as the MVC Exchange Company. (There are also other ways weeks may find their way into the Exchange company, such as weeks owners convert to Marriott Rewards points might be put into the Exchange Company by MVCI.) Under the program rules, the inventory in the MVC Trust is available for booking ONLY by other Trust Points (like those 4,000 you own now). Trust owners also have access to the inventory deposited into the MVC Exchange Company. Enrolled owners who do not own Trust points can only access the inventory in the MVC Exchange Company. In actual practice, however, the weeks owned by the MVC Trust usually get deposited into the MVC Exchange Company sometime very early in the reservation window, making them available to ALL points - both Trust and Enrolled/Elected - at that point. Points reservations can be made at 13 months out (the lowest level owners pay a 20% premium to book prior to 12 months out), but not all of the inventory gets released at 13 months. MVCI holds back at least half and saves it for the 12 month release date.
> So, bottom line - weeks inventory stays in the Weeks bucket and can only be claimed by other weeks owners. Points inventory stays in the Points bucket and can only be claimed by Points.


Note: This theory has never been confirmed, and the governing documents do not support creating "buckets" allowing reservation of weeks by owners (whether you, me, or the trust) only within said buckets.


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## Quilter

Had trouble sleeping last night.   Could have been the 2 Dr. Pepper's I had while driving to Williamsburg.   Should have invested my money instead of buying them.

So, for distraction and to bring on a sense of sleepiness I went back to the 1st page of this thread.   With the first reading I was lost on the math.   New pricing for DC points and the incentives is different than what I was accustomed to as a buyer of weeks.   Us weeks buyers were offered MR 180K points which would get us to any hotel in the world and pay for our airfare. (1999)  Then that changed to other variations of MR points packages or a free week at a timeshare property.   We would work our MR points packages to see if we could get 2 "world" trips" and we did.

Rereading the math that began this thread was similar as you have to come up with some value for the points so you can add and subtract.   Wow it reminded me of a thread I posted in 2003 defending our purchase of MSE.   We ended up with 580+ MR points which was enough for 2 travel packages in high Cats.   The Sequel is a lock-off so I added the value of 2 weeks for 1 MF.   In the end we paid 18,9K for the week.   Too much.   But I consoled myself that it had value as a good trader and we'd get 2 weeks out of 1 MF.    With the DC it's now a point generator.   It's not a large amount of points but when you break down the MF to point ratio it's close to $.50 so it's comparable to DC points MF.   I work those points for a decent rate of return.

Our MCV purchase has turned into a rental with decent return.

We're into MVC with about a $100K.   If we had invested that $100K it would have gone through the downfalls of Y2K, 911, "The Great Recession".   There's no guarantee how much of the $100K would have survived.

We did get value for that 100k.  24 travel packages.  Couple million points have flowed through both our MR accounts.   We've each had a million+ miles flow through our AA accounts.  Not to mention the other airlines.   Southwest and the companion pass being the latest of our goals

As others have said. . . family memories.   Priceless.



Hi I'm new here said:


> Some of the comparisons made to other products do not ring true to me.  Apples and oranges comparisons to jewelry stores and used cars are not relevant to me because the end product will not the same.
> 
> _*Whether you rent from an owner or pay the big bucks to "own" a Marriott TS the end product at the chosen resort is exactly the same.  The units are the same, the weather will be the same, resort activities are open to everyone.  No one cares on site whether you rented or "own".  *_
> We have never rented points, we always rent weeks from owners and the process is so easy.  There are so many weekly timeshare rentals available, lots of Marriotts.  Some people we know rent the same unit from the same owner over and over, a golf week in HHI late March early April.
> 
> I agree this thread is most informative and it hit a nerve for many on both sides of the fence.



Not so.   There is a hierarchy to room placement.   Owners get priority.  DC falls below that.   II falls below that.   marriott.com falls below that.


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## davidvel

Quilter said:


> Not so.   There is a hierarchy to room placement.   Owners get priority.  DC falls below that.   II falls below that.   marriott.com falls below that.


Not necessarily. Both DC and Marriott.com allow you to "purchase" specific view categories. You will get that view category. With II, you are guaranteed nothing, and will likely receive it.


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## vacationtime1

davidvel said:


> Not necessarily. Both DC and Marriott.com allow you to "purchase" specific view categories. You will get that view category. With II, you are guaranteed nothing, and will likely receive it.



I think Quilter is saying that *within* each view category there is a hierarchy for room assignments; owners get the best OF rooms, OV rooms, etc.

That said, a private renter (i.e. not a rental through Marriott) should get the same room that the owner from whom it is rented would have received.


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## Hi I'm new here

I'm going to stop talking for a while, some of you will be pleased and I'm sure Marriott would love to silence me.  I hope the conversation continues indefinitely and at some point I'll jump back in.  

Anyone who wants to enjoy a Marriott timeshare can rent through owners for the same or less an "owner" pays in yearly maintenance fees.  One and done rental, no ongoing obligations.  This same renter could take the upfront investment the OP wants to make, roughly fifty thousand dollars and dollar cost average this money into a mutual fund.  Historical averages of various funds, the rule of 72 and ignoring short term market fluctuations will result in a tidy sum of cash twenty years later.  They could still enjoy the same Marriott timeshares but they haven't tied up any cash.  

Anyone who wants to take the OP's route and spend fifty thousand dollars in 2017 to "own" will likely recover very little of that investment in twenty years.  Yearly maintenance fees make this an unattractive product to the masses.  This person will also pay several thousand dollars annually in yearly fees to stay in the same unit others rent.  I don't recall any particular pride of ownership and my actual experience as an "owner" was no different than when I rented.  "Ownership" obligates you to ever increasing yearly fees. "Ownership" gives you the right to exchange points for timeshare usage that is easy to rent.

I keep putting the word "ownership" in quotes.  This appears to  be a state of mind for some but it is a poor financial decision. 

Good luck to the OP and any other newbies.


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## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> I will never understand why some TUGgers insist on trying to convince others that the only correct ownership of a timeshare is as a financial investment vehicle, and that means they must be purchased as inexpensively as possible and used as cost-effectively as possible.


Why? Because it is true  My way is always the right way!


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## BocaBoy

I thought we had fully debated this issue in one of the best threads I can ever remember seeing on TUG.  I don't think Jason 245 read the first 200+ posts because he is starting at square 1 and raising the same old questions with no acknowledgement of the points in those discussions and apparently no recognition of the OP's goals in joining MVCI.  Jason, do you have any new perspectives to add to what has already been said?


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## taffy19

Jason245 said:


> For me it is more about loss mitigation than getting best deal.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


What does this mean?  Can you explain.


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## BocaBoy

dioxide45 said:


> Why? Because it is true  My way is always the right way!


So true.  We don't always have to agree, and you and I have certainly disagreed on many occasions (although not so much recently), but much is to be learned by having an open mind.


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## Jason245

BocaBoy said:


> I thought we had fully debated this issue in one of the best threads I can ever remember seeing on TUG.  I don't think Jason 245 read the first 200+ posts because he is starting at square 1 and raising the same old questions with no acknowledgement of the points in those discussions and apparently no recognition of the OP's goals in joining MVCI.  Jason, do you have any new perspectives to add to what has already been said?


They are not old questions.  They are the basics.  

If OP has reached the point where they believe they are fully educated and that a purchase from developer still makes sense than tug has done it's job. 

Ultimately, it is no skin off my back either way. That being said, OP appear to be rationalizing and has some form of deep seeded fear in doing anything outside of big Corp channels.  There are people like that and ultimately they have to do what is comfortable for them. 

I find having insurance and an attorney is much cheaper.  I also find that there are so many quality rentals offered from sites like airbnb,  hotels.com etc that I can accommodate those needs as well. Ultimately, the OP has a low risk tolerance,  and as such they pay the premium.  

As long as they walk into the deal with their eyes open and know that their sunk cash flow is very large and they are willing to accept(and have the money) watching enough cash to pay for a  car just evaporate after purchase and rescind time expires. 

There have been to many on these boards that realize too late that these "deals" are sand pits.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## Jason245

iconnections said:


> What does this mean?  Can you explain.


From my research,  most if not all timeshare ownerships go down in value,  either through prices remaining static (inflation impact) or the units falling to near worthless as rofr stops being exercised.  

Given that, it becomes a game of getting the best product you can while mitigating my cash flow loss. 

Cash outflows are buy in (sunk cost with no assumed recovery), club or membership fees,  reservation fees and mf. 

My goal is to be able to dump whatever I own and know that from a cash flow perspective,  I lost as little as possible.  Once I hit breakeven,  it becomes a annual mf to stay value assessment.  

The sooner I breakeven the better. And any cash flow loss is mitigated.  

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## GregT

Hi I'm new here said:


> Anyone who wants to enjoy a Marriott timeshare can rent through owners for the same or less an "owner" pays in yearly maintenance fees.  One and done rental, no ongoing obligations.



What you say is correct, but please also recognize the value of being able to cancel without penalty.  I would reiterate again comments from my post above that there is significant value in being able to cancel a reservation, not just in the securing the original reservation. I just returned from a vacation that could never have happened with owner rentals and it was tremendous one on one time with my son.

There are far too many variables to reduce this down to a one-structure-fits-all solution.    For me, my work heavily impacts when I can travel, and I may not know until very close to the travel dates what is possible.   So, I currently am holding two reservations at Ritz Carlton St. Thomas (Thanksgiving 2017 and February 2018), one at HHV (across Veteran's Day in 2017), one at Ko Olina (across President's Day 2018) and one at Elysian Beach Resort (March 2018).  

I will maybe use one or two of them and will cancel the others -- but I have no idea what work will be like across all those dates so I will make the reservations and then cancel them (or rent them) as desired.  The only one that is modestly problematic is the Ko Olina, because it's an II trade.  But I'll cancel that if I have too.  

For summer 2017, I've got lots of contiguous reservations in Hawaii (WPORV, MOC, Ko Olina, Grand Waikikian) -- I just shortened the WPORV reservation from 12 days to 7 days because it's clear now I can't take the full trip, and Grand Waikikian will likely also be canceled.

But, this structure -- true flexibility -- would not be possible without owning the different timeshares.  Plus, it's fun for a quantitative person like me!!  

Best,

Greg


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## Jason245

GregT said:


> What you say is correct, but please also recognize the value of being able to cancel without penalty.  I would reiterate again comments from my post above that there is significant value in being able to cancel a reservation, not just in the securing the original reservation. I just returned from a vacation that could never have happened with owner rentals and it was tremendous one on one time with my son.
> 
> There are far too many variables to reduce this down to a one-structure-fits-all solution.    For me, my work heavily impacts when I can travel, and I may not know until very close to the travel dates what is possible.   So, I currently am holding two reservations at Ritz Carlton St. Thomas (Thanksgiving 2017 and February 2018), one at HHV (across Veteran's Day in 2017), one at Ko Olina (across President's Day 2018) and one at Elysian Beach Resort (March 2018).
> 
> I will maybe use one or two of them and will cancel the others -- but I have no idea what work will be like across all those dates so I will make the reservations and then cancel them (or rent them) as desired.  The only one that is modestly problematic is the Ko Olina, because it's an II trade.  But I'll cancel that if I have too.
> 
> For summer 2017, I've got lots of contiguous reservations in Hawaii (WPORV, MOC, Ko Olina, Grand Waikikian) -- I just shortened the WPORV reservation from 12 days to 7 days because it's clear now I can't take the full trip, and Grand Waikikian will likely also be canceled.
> 
> But, this structure -- true flexibility -- would not be possible without owning the different timeshares.  Plus, it's fun for a quantitative person like me!!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


Insurance gives that flexibility. .and if you can't plan in advance .. ts isn't necessarily the right product.  

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45

iconnections said:


> What does this mean?  Can you explain.


I think what is meant, if you only spend a small amount of money, you only have a small amount to lose. If you spend big bucks and it doesn't work out, you are out big bucks.


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## Jason245

dioxide45 said:


> I think what is meant, if you only spend a small amount of money, you only have a small amount to lose. If you spend big bucks and it doesn't work out, you are out big bucks.


That too..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## Quilter

davidvel said:


> Not necessarily. Both DC and Marriott.com allow you to "purchase" specific view categories. You will get that view category. With II, you are guaranteed nothing, and will likely receive it.





vacationtime1 said:


> I think Quilter is saying that *within* each view category there is a hierarchy for room assignments; owners get the best OF rooms, OV rooms, etc.
> 
> That said, a private renter (i.e. not a rental through Marriott) should get the same room that the owner from whom it is rented would have received.



Yes  vacationtime that's what I meant.    And for the most part you get the benefits of the owner. 

That's why I'll repeat myself. . .

The simplest way to work the MVC system is to rent from a seasoned owner who is at the Chairman level.


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## taffy19

GregT said:


> What you say is correct, but please also recognize the value of being able to cancel without penalty.  I would reiterate again comments from my post above that there is significant value in being able to cancel a reservation, not just in the securing the original reservation. I just returned from a vacation that could never have happened with owner rentals and it was tremendous one on one time with my son.
> 
> There are far too many variables to reduce this down to a one-structure-fits-all solution.    For me, my work heavily impacts when I can travel, and I may not know until very close to the travel dates what is possible.   So, I currently am holding two reservations at Ritz Carlton St. Thomas (Thanksgiving 2017 and February 2018), one at HHV (across Veteran's Day in 2017), one at Ko Olina (across President's Day 2018) and one at Elysian Beach Resort (March 2018).
> 
> I will maybe use one or two of them and will cancel the others -- but I have no idea what work will be like across all those dates so I will make the reservations and then cancel them (or rent them) as desired.  The only one that is modestly problematic is the Ko Olina, because it's an II trade.  But I'll cancel that if I have too.
> 
> For summer 2017, I've got lots of contiguous reservations in Hawaii (WPORV, MOC, Ko Olina, Grand Waikikian) -- I just shortened the WPORV reservation from 12 days to 7 days because it's clear now I can't take the full trip, and Grand Waikikian will likely also be canceled.
> 
> But, this structure -- true flexibility -- would not be possible without owning the different timeshares.  Plus, it's fun for *a quantitative person* like me!!* *
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


I had to look this up too and you are that person! 

At the end, every person should make up their own mind what is best for them.  However, TUG has saved thousands of dollars over the years for people who were told lies or didn't understand what exactly they were buying.  They were fortunate to find this forum in time to rescind the contract.


----------



## davidvel

Quilter said:


> Yes  vacationtime that's what I meant.    And for the most part you get the benefits of the owner.
> 
> That's why I'll repeat myself. . .
> 
> The simplest way to work the MVC system is to rent from a seasoned owner who is at the Chairman level.


My point was related to an II exchange, in which you are guaranteed no view category at all, even if the underlying week had a good one. (Something that I hate as it strips the rights and value off the underlying week.)


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## TXTortoise

davidvel said:


> My point was related to an II exchange, in which you are guaranteed no view category at all, even if the underlying week had a good one.)



That's what I thought, but rooms for my last two trades to Marriott Maui, via II, were assigned strictly based on the published view shown on the II certificate.  One garden view, the other OV.


----------



## Quilter

GregT said:


> What you say is correct, . . .
> 
> There are far too many variables to reduce this down to a one-structure-fits-all solution.    For me, my work heavily impacts when I can travel, and I may not know until very close to the travel dates what is possible.   So, I currently am holding two reservations at Ritz Carlton St. Thomas (Thanksgiving 2017 and February 2018), one at HHV (across Veteran's Day in 2017), one at Ko Olina (across President's Day 2018) and one at Elysian Beach Resort (March 2018).
> 
> . . .
> 
> For summer 2017, I've got lots of contiguous reservations in Hawaii (WPORV, MOC, Ko Olina, Grand Waikikian) -- I just shortened the WPORV reservation from 12 days to 7 days because it's clear now I can't take the full trip, and Grand Waikikian will likely also be canceled.
> 
> But, this structure -- true flexibility -- would not be possible without owning the different timeshares.  Plus, it's fun for a quantitative person like me!!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



So sorry to see none of your reservations cross our paths 

I suspect Golden will be getting into quantitative spreadsheets.  Seems like that kind of brain


----------



## BocaBoy

Jason245 said:


> They are not old questions.  They are the basics.


Maybe basics, but definitely old as far as this thread is concerned.  You are making exactly the same points that were made by a couple of other posters earlier.  They were fully debated and your posts sound like you did not read those prior comments as you raise them with no reference to the prior discussions.


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## bazzap

It is certainly true that II exchanges do not consistently guarantee a view category across all MVC resorts.
However, whilst some resorts clearly do not honour the underlying view category, some do and I have direct personal experience of others where the view category has even been upgraded.
So yes there is no guarantee, but it is not always a downgrade.


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## GoldenVIKE

Quilter said:


> Yes  vacationtime that's what I meant.    And for the most part you get the benefits of the owner.
> 
> That's why I'll repeat myself. . .
> 
> The simplest way to work the MVC system is to rent from a seasoned owner who is at the Chairman level.



The best way to go to a football game is to know a player and take their friend and family tickets. The best way to fly is to know rich people that own and will take you on their private jets. 

This point has shown up in here several times. Is it so easy to do this that's it's a relevant point?  Through VPE or something?


----------



## chunkygal

The intangibles are important.
Like most here, we found this site only after buying retail. What's done is done, but that being said, I own a week at waihoia worth 5000+ points, which trades well almost everywhere and we even get the II trades we want when we need them, but I "rent" points out and in when I need to now and every time I get MCV fever (which is every time I Am on vacation there), I throw cold water on my face and read the forums.
That being said, I could easily afford it paying cash
My family has had some of the most awesome memories ever with Marriott and even if buying retail 20 years ago was a mistake, I wouldn't trade those for anything. Anything.


----------



## Quilter

GoldenVIKE said:


> This point has shown up in here several times. Is it so easy to do this that's it's a relevant point?  Through VPE or something?



I tend to repeat myself 

It is easy enough.  The real test would be finding the right owner and how needy the guest is.  So far, I haven't had any problems.


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## JIMinNC

Jason245 said:


> They are not old questions.  They are the basics.
> 
> If OP has reached the point where they believe they are fully educated and that a purchase from developer still makes sense than tug has done it's job.
> 
> Ultimately, it is no skin off my back either way. That being said, OP appear to be rationalizing and has some form of deep seeded fear in doing anything outside of big Corp channels.  There are people like that and ultimately they have to do what is comfortable for them.
> 
> I find having insurance and an attorney is much cheaper.  I also find that there are so many quality rentals offered from sites like airbnb,  hotels.com etc that I can accommodate those needs as well. Ultimately, the OP has a low risk tolerance,  and as such they pay the premium.
> 
> As long as they walk into the deal with their eyes open and know that their sunk cash flow is very large and they are willing to accept(and have the money) *watching enough cash to pay for a  car just evaporate after purchase and rescind time expires. *
> 
> There have been to many on these boards that realize too late that these "deals" are sand pits.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



Again, as has been said over and over...cheapest or lowest cost isn't always the goal for everyone. Convenience and flexibility has value and often is worth paying money for. Some folks agree with that philosophy, others don't, and they want to make sure they always have the "best" financial deal. That's fine. As I said before, one size does not fit all.

You car analogy is a good one. When I buy a car, that value evaporates over time just like a timeshare. I buy the car for $30,000 or $40,000 and trade it in 10 or 15 years later for $5,000 or less. That is a really poor investment too, but that doesn't mean I should never buy a car and always take public transportation. Again, timeshare is NOT a financial investment. So it should not be analyzed as one. I could invest that $40,000 I might spend on a car in mutual fund, and it might grow 5% to 8% a year on average. Just because I could do that doesn't mean I shouldn't buy a car.

I think people wrongly look at timeshares as an asset-type investment like a house because an underlying component of timeshare is a piece of real estate. But timeshares should NOT be compared to traditional appreciating real estate. They are two different animals, partly because so much of the price of a timeshare is composed of marketing and other things not related to the underlying real estate itself. But a timeshare is thus more like buying a car than a house - expect it to decline significantly in value over time - but like a car provides the value of transportation, the timeshare provides the value of vacation experiences.


----------



## chunkygal

Trading on vpe both selling and buying has always been quick and easy for me.


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## JIMinNC

GoldenVIKE said:


> This point has shown up in here several times. Is it so easy to do this that's it's a relevant point?  Through VPE or something?



Renting a Points reservation from a Points Owner, is basically just like renting a week from a Weeks owner, they make the reservation for you and hold it on your behalf with you listed as an "additional guest." The advantage this has over weeks rental is that with a weeks rental you are limited to the weeks any one owner owns and is willing to rent. If you want to go to different places, you may have to deal with many different owners. With the approach Quilter is talking about, a single Chairman's level points owner can book just about anything in the MVC system that can be had with Points. So you can tell them, "I want a week at Ko Olina" or "I want a week in St Thomas" and they can go online and see if that is available with their points. They then make the reservation, put your name on it as an additional guest and you pay them. In theory, a single Points owner can access any MVC resort, while any one weeks owner cannot.

They still control the reservation, but you are allowed to check-in instead of them. You also can't shop the system - they have to shop it for you and tell you what is available - but it is a way to avoid all upfront costs if you are willing to make the control compromises necessary to pursue this approach.

There are Points owners on VPE that will do this. Some only want to rent you the points themselves so that as soon as the transaction is done, they are paid and out of the picture and the points are yours to do as you wish. But there are other owners on VPE who are willing to actually make Points reservations for you and hold the reservation on your behalf until check-in. This approach is most often used by people who DO NOT own any points and thus have no Points account to transfer points into. If you own points of your own, even a minimal amount, it's probably usually better to rent the actual points rather than having a Points owner make the reservation for you.


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## Quilter

JIMinNC said:


> Renting a Points reservation from a Points Owner, is basically just like renting a week from a Weeks owner, they make the reservation for you and hold it on your behalf with you listed as an "additional guest." The advantage this has over weeks rental is that with a weeks rental you are limited to the weeks any one owner owns and is willing to rent. If you want to go to different places, you may have to deal with many different owners. With the approach Quilter is talking about, a single Chairman's level points owner can book just about anything in the MVC system that can be had with Points. So you can tell them, "I want a week at Ko Olina" or "I want a week in St Thomas" and they can go online and see if that is available with their points. They then make the reservation, put your name on it as an additional guest and you pay them. In theory, a single Points owner can access any MVC resort, while any one weeks owner cannot.
> 
> They still control the reservation, but you are allowed to check-in instead of them. You also can't shop the system - they have to shop it for you and tell you what is available - but it is a way to avoid all upfront costs if you are willing to make the control compromises necessary to pursue this approach.
> 
> There are Points owners on VPE that will do this. Some only want to rent you the points themselves so that as soon as the transaction is done, they are paid and out of the picture and the points are yours to do as you wish. But there are other owners on VPE who are willing to actually make Points reservations for you and hold the reservation on your behalf until check-in. This approach is most often used by people who DO NOT own any points and thus have no Points account to transfer points into. If you own points of your own, even a minimal amount, it's probably usually better to rent the actual points rather than having a Points owner make the reservation for you.




Thank you Jim for stepping in and saving me from writing so many words.  We've been out enjoying this 73 day in Williamsburg.

I was with you the whole way until I came to the last sentence.  

In my experience the Chairman level has great benefits.  One of these is the 60 Day discount.  I have a good friend who's at the Executive level, owns 20+ weeks and a smattering of DC points.  He does lots of rentals.  But when it gets to needing a reservation inside 60 days he sends me a text.


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## Chucez

bazzap said:


> You have mentioned several times that you're pretty busy and don't want to spend a lot of time "playing a game"
> Even putting aside any financial aspects, you should be aware that to get the best out of MVC just to secure the reservations you want you do need to spend a reasonable amount of time understanding how the system works, planning and being ready to make your booking at the exact date and time of the earliest inventory release.
> Those who do tend to be pleased with MVC, many of those who don't often tend to be rather disillusioned.


I being in the latter...The "Game" will Eat you alive...I can not believe people are still buying into the timeshare Game...


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## JIMinNC

Quilter said:


> Thank you Jim for stepping in and saving me from writing so many words.  We've been out enjoying this 73 day in Williamsburg.
> 
> I was with you the whole way until I came to the last sentence.
> 
> In my experience the Chairman level has great benefits.  One of these is the 60 Day discount.  I have a good friend who's at the Executive level, owns 20+ weeks and a smattering of DC points.  He does lots of rentals.  But when it gets to needing a reservation inside 60 days he sends me a text.



Valid point. I was thinking more about typical longer range booking since I've never done much inside of 60 days. I generally like to have things nailed down and can't generally travel on short notice. For last minute travel the Chairman discount certainly is an advantage.


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## JIMinNC

Chucez said:


> I being in the latter...The "Game" will Eat you alive...I can not believe people are still buying into the timeshare Game...



There are certainly plenty of people like you who quickly become disillusioned with their timeshare, but if you spend a bit of time on TUG you will find many others of us love what we own. Because of the way timeshare is sold, many people decide to buy without the necessary analysis and consideration of the pluses and the minuses. But if you do your homework before you buy and learn how to use you ownership effectively, it can be a great way to travel. We went to three or four presentations from three different developers before our first purchase 19 years ago, and researched here on TUG and elsewhere before we bought. We also did a lot of research before buying our first Marriott 3 years ago. If you do your homework and go in with the right expectations, timeshare can be very rewarding, as many of the previous comments in this thread attest.


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## Chucez

JIMinNC said:


> There are certainly plenty of people like you who quickly become disillusioned with their timeshare, but if you spend a bit of time on TUG you will find many others of us love what we own. Because of the way timeshare is sold, many people decide to buy without the necessary analysis and consideration of the pluses and the minuses. But if you do your homework before you buy and learn how to use you ownership effectively, it can be a great way to travel. We went to three or four presentations from three different developers before our first purchase 19 years ago, and researched here on TUG and elsewhere before we bought. We also did a lot of research before buying our first Marriott 3 years ago. If you do your homework and go in with the right expectations, timeshare can be very rewarding, as many of the previous comments in this thread attest.



If you do not plan early it's a nightmare. Anyone buying a timeshare is making a mistake. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JIMinNC

Chucez said:


> If you do not plan early it's a nightmare. Anyone buying a timeshare is making a mistake.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Unless that person likes to plan early...

Yes, advance planning is an absolute necessity with timeshare ownership, especially if you want to travel in prime time. If you don't have to travel prime time, then you can get away with waiting a little latter to book, but you still need to plan. I knew about the advance planning aspect before we bought, and have actually come to like getting things nailed down 10-12 months out. For longer distance trips where we have to fly that also gives us the best chance to get better airfare or even use frequent flyer miles. We've got all of 2017 booked already and are now working on getting ready to start making decisions for 2018.

But yes, if you can't or don't want to make plans in advance, it's probably best to stay away from timeshare.


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## jme

Jason245 said:


> So you would be willing to put 10s of thousands of your money in an "investment" where you are cash flow negative for a decade(won't earn anything on it for 10 years and if you sell before that time you will get less than face back) even while inflation eats away at the principal?
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



Haven't read the entire thread because I just got back from a trip to my timeshare this afternoon, just by coincidence. And my comment might not be relevant to the gist of the long conversation, but your thought as expressed above just happened to catch my eye, and this would be my first response:

Without trying to be facetious, and I'm truly not, have you ever purchased a vehicle?  or do you hire a taxi to take you everywhere?

Include your thoughts on the negatives of the extreme depreciation, insurance costs, fuel costs, and maintenance.....and eventually all for a return of little (or nothing) if viewed as an "investment".

I tend to view a timeshare purchase in the same light as a vehicle. I run the risk of both being worthless at the end of a reasonable period of use......but it's the use that serves my purposes, and not the financial return on investment, as I never viewed it as such.....I had other means for that. The ride has been good for me, however, for both my (many) owned vehicles and for my timeshares.


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## Jason245

jme said:


> Haven't read the entire thread because I just got back from a trip to my timeshare this afternoon, just by coincidence. And my comment might not be relevant to the gist of the long conversation, but your thought as expressed above just happened to catch my eye, and this would be my first response:
> 
> Without trying to be facetious, and I'm truly not, have you ever purchased a vehicle?  or do you hire a taxi to take you everywhere?
> 
> Include your thoughts on the negatives of the extreme depreciation, insurance costs, fuel costs, and maintenance.....and eventually all for a return of little (or nothing) if viewed as an "investment".
> 
> I tend to view a timeshare purchase in the same light as a vehicle. I run the risk of both being worthless at the end of a reasonable period of use......but it's the use that serves my purposes, and not the financial return on investment, as I never viewed it as such.....I had other means for that. The ride has been good for me, however, for both my (many) owned vehicles and for my timeshares.


Cars are transportation.  Buy what you need to accommodate your needs (that will get you from point a to point b). Drive them into the ground.  Buy used unless the auto is Japanese  (Toyota or honda since those depreciate straight line). 

For most people in the usa, cars are not optional,  you need them to get to work. Timeshares are optional.  

Cars can be divested in less than 1 hour,  and at a minimum you will get a tax deduction from a church. timeshares can take months to get rid of for nothing and may cost you sweetness to get rid of. 

A car is an object that you have full ownership and control over, a timeshare is an interval ownership in something you have no control over except for the fact that you can use it for some set amount of time. 

If you buy a car at MSRP, you generally can still get 75 percent of what you paid if you need to dump it after you drive it off the lot. With timeshares,  after recision period you are lucky to get 10 percent. 

Neither are investments both are cash flow. One related to vacation,  the other for transport.  

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## JIMinNC

Jason245 said:


> Neither are investments both are cash flow. One related to vacation,  the other for transport.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



I agree with this statement. That's why I think JME's comparison is a good one (I used a similar car analogy in post #261). Just like cars, you use timeshares up over time. Yes, they are harder to sell and are an optional luxury purchase vs. a car which is more of a necessity in most of the U.S., but I don't think those two points invalidate the comparison. Both are products that are purchased and "consumed" over time, and when they are eventually disposed of at some point in the future, they may be worth little or nothing.

If you don't like the car analogy since it is more of a necessity, then I'll use another - high-end home theater systems. They can be very expensive - $10,000 to $20,000 easy, maybe even a lot more if you go very high end with 4K TV, high end surround speakers, amps, preamps to drive a multi-room audio set up, headphone amps, DVD players, Streaming devices, etc, etc. They are certainly a luxury (just like a timeshare). They lose lots of value over a 5-10 year use period (just like timeshares) and you may have to work a bit to sell them on eBay, CraigsList, whatever (just like timeshares). That doesn't mean a person who is a high end video fan or audiophile shouldn't buy such a system if they can afford it. Their enjoyment of the movies and music is worth it to them and they don't look at it as an investment. They are "consuming" the system over its usage life. So think of timeshares as a home theater for vacations! We buy them and then use them up over 10, 20, or 30 years.


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## GoldenVIKE

JIMinNC said:


> Renting a Points reservation from a Points Owner, is basically just like renting a week from a Weeks owner, they make the reservation for you and hold it on your behalf with you listed as an "additional guest." The advantage this has over weeks rental is that with a weeks rental you are limited to the weeks any one owner owns and is willing to rent. If you want to go to different places, you may have to deal with many different owners. With the approach Quilter is talking about, a single Chairman's level points owner can book just about anything in the MVC system that can be had with Points. So you can tell them, "I want a week at Ko Olina" or "I want a week in St Thomas" and they can go online and see if that is available with their points. They then make the reservation, put your name on it as an additional guest and you pay them. In theory, a single Points owner can access any MVC resort, while any one weeks owner cannot.
> 
> They still control the reservation, but you are allowed to check-in instead of them. You also can't shop the system - they have to shop it for you and tell you what is available - but it is a way to avoid all upfront costs if you are willing to make the control compromises necessary to pursue this approach.
> 
> There are Points owners on VPE that will do this. Some only want to rent you the points themselves so that as soon as the transaction is done, they are paid and out of the picture and the points are yours to do as you wish. But there are other owners on VPE who are willing to actually make Points reservations for you and hold the reservation on your behalf until check-in. This approach is most often used by people who DO NOT own any points and thus have no Points account to transfer points into. If you own points of your own, even a minimal amount, it's probably usually better to rent the actual points rather than having a Points owner make the reservation for you.



Ahh, this makes total sense now.  I was wondering - why would an owner with say 2,000 pts of their own, who rents say 2,000 more points from a Chairman level, get to access the Chairman benefits?  I get it now, thank you.


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## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> That doesn't mean a person who is a high end video fan or audiophile shouldn't buy such a system if they can afford it.


They could buy it resale on eBay or Craigslist though and save lots of money. Just like timeshares.


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## GoldenVIKE

JIMinNC said:


> Valid point. I was thinking more about typical longer range booking since I've never done much inside of 60 days. I generally like to have things nailed down and can't generally travel on short notice. For last minute travel the Chairman discount certainly is an advantage.



Presidential (10,000) have the same short booking benefit as Chairman (15,000).  Even Executive (7,000) has similar, albeit 30 days vs. 60 days.  https://m.marriottvacationclub.com/...rshipLevelsResources/benefits_at_a_glance.pdf


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## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> They could buy it resale on eBay or Craigslist though and save lots of money. Just like timeshares.



Yes, another reason why the home theater (or car) analogy is a good one for timeshares. But I would suspect most people who would be interested in a $20,000 home theater would probably be able to afford to buy it from a specialty dealer who will install, set-up, etc. Sort of the same discussion we're having here. They are paying more than the person who searches Craigslist by buying retail, but get more control over their purchase and the acquisition process is easier and less of a hassle.


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## JIMinNC

GoldenVIKE said:


> Presidential (10,000) have the same short booking benefit as Chairman (15,000).  Even Executive (7,000) has similar, albeit 30 days vs. 60 days.  https://m.marriottvacationclub.com/...rshipLevelsResources/benefits_at_a_glance.pdf



True. I think Quilter may have been saying Chairman's Level as the example because she may be a Chairman level owner. And she was saying Chairman's Level has the most benefits - like they can book sailing adventures, but no other level can. But I doubt they can rent the sailing adventures to others.


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## BocaBoy

Chucez said:


> I can not believe people are still buying into the timeshare Game...


Ahh, another player off the bench with another gross generalization that does not recognize that people's needs and desires differ.


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## Quilter

GoldenVIKE said:


> Presidential (10,000) have the same short booking benefit as Chairman (15,000).  Even Executive (7,000) has similar, albeit 30 days vs. 60 days.  https://m.marriottvacationclub.com/...rshipLevelsResources/benefits_at_a_glance.pdf



Thanks for that link.   I don't think I've seen it until now.   I knew there were recent changes but didn't pay complete attention to details on the other levels.


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## BocaBoy

Quilter said:


> Thanks for that link.   I don't think I've seen it until now.   I knew there were recent changes but didn't pay complete attention to details on the other levels.


These are not new changes...they were introduced when MVCI went to the four elite levels.


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## jme

Jason245 said:


> Neither are investments both are cash flow.
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



Exactly. Just what I said. Both personal choices, purchased with cash for a purpose other than financial investment. In essence they both ultimately tend toward zero value, except for intended purpose alone, which holds an inherent and perceived value that elevates them to a chosen course of action.

I realize one is for transportation, that's why I chose it, as you did. I like mine, hope you like yours. The other is for "transformation", from a stressed and hard-working albeit successful professional (nature of my business) who seeks mental and physical relief (like everyone else who holds a position of immense responsibility) with amazing down time, especially with family. But *both* still have something in common-----they are strictly for use and abuse, enter at any level...... Call it disposable income if you like, but the purposes of both, and the "financial explications" of both, are not as dissimilar as you attempt to conclude.

And fyi, to the contrary I am indeed in complete control of my timeshares. Maybe that's not the typical experience of the average timeshare owner, but it's something that I did put some modicum of thought into prior to purchasing. I obtained quality by design and can get rid of them as easily as I want, with a decent return not anywhere near zero. In addition, I can (and do) rent any of them for well over maintenance fee, never at a loss, and never even close to a "break-even". Some I rent for 2.5x the maintenance fee, so I have a positive cash flow at any time if I choose to do that.

But I mostly choose to use them in the way initially purposed, which as planned, enriches my life (and that of my family) like nothing else. It has provided joy for two decades, and won't stop until I decide to choose that route, but I have advised my family to always keep and use them, if nothing else, strictly as positive cash flow through rentals.  And even if sold by choice, I fully expect far more by percentage in return than a purchased vehicle. Even if at half the value, that's more than a vehicle at the use's end.

Bottom line, minus the drama over the necessities, I view vehicles and timeshares in much the same light, i.e., a loss in general as a financial investment. And altho a vehicle serves a noble purpose, a timeshare can provide a most enjoyable function in a family's life, with priceless memories not achievable by many other means. And certainly not by renting from someone else. Where we go and where we stay cannot be had by only rentals "for less than maintenance fees" as someone posted. We would pay far more than maintenance fees to get prime weeks in prime places, usually double or more. There is no "Toyota or Honda of the timeshare world". The closest thing might be a resale, with far less up-front cost....somewhat akin to buying a top-brand certified vehicle with low mileage, but then again, you're not riding in luxury in the manner of a ride in a top-notch resort year after year. Ask a kid, he'll give you an honest and candid answer. Ask mine.


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## Quilter

There are some here who suggest Golden rescind.   

I have a question to those who keep abreast of the current sales and projections.

If he does rescind, in order to give other avenues of booking a try, what is the likelihood of finding the same or better deal in a year?

Back in the days of weeks, the price was always going up.  At least until The Great Recession. Purchase incentives varied property to property and even with telesales in Orlando.   Then they may have stayed stagnant for a while until the DC was rolled out.


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## Quilter

BocaBoy said:


> These are not new changes...they were introduced when MVCI went to the four elite levels.



I know.   I didn't memorize the details on the other levels.


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## GoldenVIKE

Regarding recent discussion about payback periods, here are the number of years to break even depending on how much you value a point in terms of its booking value.  On the low end are people that are perfectly happy or even prefer to do P2P bookings.  On the high end are people that would normally book on Marriott.com, but with TS would make a conscious attempt to maximize booking value.  The "bonus" points you get from buying direct from MVCI are valued at $0.70 in all examples though, since those don't come with any special benefits beyond what you'd get from renting them.  The example below is set at the 7,000 pt level - other levels would vary to some degree.

Direct=just signing up at presentation
Hybrid=buying a combined points and enrolled week direct from Marriott (benchmark for week: $2.80/pt upfront + $0.40 pt annual MF)
Resale=buying straight points resale @ $3.50/pt

Assuming $0 resale value of a point after you purchase it:

BookValue Direct Hybrid Resale
$0.70 65 30 25
$0.80 38 20 17
$0.90 27 15 12
$1.00 21 12 10
$1.10 17 10 8
$1.20 14 9 7
$1.30 12 8 6
$1.40 11 7 5
$1.50 10 6 5

Assuming $3/pt resale value of a point after you purchase it:

BookValue Direct Hybrid Resale
$0.70 45 15 13
$0.80 26 10 8
$0.90 18 8 6
$1.00 14 6 5
$1.10 12 5 4
$1.20 10 5 4
$1.30 9 4 3
$1.40 8 4 3
$1.50 7 3 2


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## Quilter

GoldenVIKE said:


> The "bonus" points you get from buying direct from MVCI are valued at $0.70 in all examples though, since those don't come with any special benefits beyond what you'd get from renting them.



What does this mean?  Sorry, I don't understand how the incentives work anymore with DC point purchases.

We got 800 bonus points when we enrolled our weeks.   Are the bonus weeks that are given as incentives the same kind?   I remember they had limited value compared to regular DC points.


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## dioxide45

Quilter said:


> What does this mean?  Sorry, I don't understand how the incentives work anymore with DC point purchases.
> 
> We got 800 bonus points when we enrolled our weeks.   Are the bonus weeks that are given as incentives the same kind?   I remember they had limited value compared to regular DC points.


These would be what they refer to as PlusPoints in the Exchange Procedures. One time use DC points usually good for 18-24 months.


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## GoldenVIKE

Quilter said:


> What does this mean?  Sorry, I don't understand how the incentives work anymore with DC point purchases.
> 
> We got 800 bonus points when we enrolled our weeks.   Are the bonus weeks that are given as incentives the same kind?   I remember they had limited value compared to regular DC points.



They're "free trips" thrown in.  Today if you go sign up at presentation for say 2,000 points, you'll get a "free trip" (i.e. 2,000 extra points for one-time use) for signing up at presentation, plus another 2,000 point "free trip" if you finance at least 70% of the purchase and keep the loan active for at least 18 months.  On the latter, the net effect of the free trip plus tax writeoff, minus the interest you pay in 18 months, is pretty solid so I included it in my calculations.  If you decline to finance then both "direct" deals above are SLIGHTLY less attractive, but not nearly enough so that it'd impact the payoff periods.


----------



## GregT

Quilter said:


> There are some here who suggest Golden rescind.



I no longer think Golden should rescind -- beyond my knee jerk reaction that any developer purchase should be rescinded, Golden found Hybrid purchases, which make the purchase price for someone who wants the Marriott flexibility more rational.

There is no doubt that Marriott's system was designed to provide flexibility -- it does this very well.

Since Golden -- and I'm counting that the timeshare purchase does not create a financial hardship -- evaluated the options and elected a points-based timeshare, good for him.    There are many different reasons to choose to keep a timeshare purchase (control on making & canceling reservations/pride of ownership/desire to return/unique family memories) plus Golden is spending his disposable income in a way that he desires.   Good for him.  I can talk him out of renting from a weeks owner just as easily as I can promote renting that same week.  Nothing is risk-free.

And if he bought points resale -- how much would he really save versus his current package?  I think he got a decent deal for someone who wants to play primarily in points.

It will be interesting to see how the system matures and we will make the most of the opportunity as it presents itself.

Best,

Greg


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## JIMinNC

GoldenVIKE said:


> They're "free trips" thrown in.  Today if you go sign up at presentation for say 2,000 points, you'll get a "free trip" (i.e. 2,000 extra points for one-time use) for signing up at presentation, plus another 2,000 point "free trip" if you finance at least 70% of the purchase and keep the loan active for at least 18 months.  On the latter, the net effect of the free trip plus tax writeoff, minus the interest you pay in 18 months, is pretty solid so I included it in my calculations.  If you decline to finance then both "direct" deals above are SLIGHTLY less attractive, but not nearly enough so that it'd impact the payoff periods.



Do you (or anyone else) have any idea whether Sales will offer a lower price on the Points you buy if you decline the Incentive Points? In other words, if the per point price WITH the incentive Points is $11, would they reduce the price to, say, $10.50 (to pick a random number) if you opted for a lower price instead of the Single-Use points?


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## bazzap

I really can't decide whether I find this thread to be informative, amusing, sad or....?
It is probably a combination of all of these.
The key point raised several times is surely that "one size does not fit all"
It is good that everyone can express their views and hopefully help others with useful facts and opinions.
Those who are adamant that timeshare purchases can not possibly make sense will never convince those of us who highly value and benefit from the quality and varied experiences our purchases give us, our families and friends over a lifetime.
Similarly, we will never convince them that this is why we puchased and financial cost benefit investment cases are a less important factor.
I fear this debate could go on and on and...


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## dioxide45

bazzap said:


> Those who are adamant that timeshare purchases can not possibly make sense will never convince those of us who highly value and benefit from the quality and varied experiences our purchases give us, our families and friends over a lifetime.
> Similarly, we will never convince them that this is why we puchased and financial cost benefit investment cases are a less important factor.
> I fear this debate could go on and on and...


Just like politics and religion...


----------



## GoldenVIKE

bazzap said:


> I really can't decide whether I find this thread to be informative, amusing, sad or....?
> It is probably a combination of all of these.
> The key point raised several times is surely that "one size does not fit all"
> It is good that everyone can express their views and hopefully help others with useful facts and opinions.
> Those who are adamant that timeshare purchases can not possibly make sense will never convince those of us who highly value and benefit from the quality and varied experiences our purchases give us, our families and friends over a lifetime.
> Similarly, we will never convince them that this is why we puchased and financial cost benefit investment cases are a less important factor.
> I fear this debate could go on and on and...



As a newbie to TS, I've found this thread extremely educational.  Yes there's an aspect of political debate where some folks are just locked into their opinions, but there's also a good amount of substance in here.  That's why I've kept tracking it.  Plus for me, having benefited tremendously from the advice posted in here, I am motivated to continue to provide objective data and comparisons so that hopefully this thread can help people in the future who are considering getting into MVCI or whether they should rescind.

One of the really interesting things for us was to learn that TS can be rented from eBay, Redweek, etc.  But to fully evaluate whether that'd work for us, we needed some of the postings on here to help us understand the process involved in that.  Ultimately, we decided we were willing to pay the premium that we did in order to never have to deal with that process; and at the same time, we're able to save money and have better access to nicer units than we'd have if we continued to just book our vacations on .com websites.

I'd expect that different people will come to different conclusions about whether Renting vs. Weeks vs. Trading vs. Points vs. Websites is right for them; and hopefully this thread can help with that, without being an advertisement for any single one of those options.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

JIMinNC said:


> Do you (or anyone else) have any idea whether Sales will offer a lower price on the Points you buy if you decline the Incentive Points? In other words, if the per point price WITH the incentive Points is $11, would they reduce the price to, say, $10.50 (to pick a random number) if you opted for a lower price instead of the Single-Use points?



Excellent question.  The broker I spoke with alluded to it, but I didn't probe too far into it because I was left with the impression that the reduction in price is small enough that if you value the free trips at all, you should just take those.  At the time of that call, I had already decided to rescind, so I didn't really care too much about what the specific math was.  It's a great question though.


----------



## bazzap

dioxide45 said:


> Just like politics and religion...


Oh, so very true.


----------



## bazzap

GoldenVIKE said:


> As a newbie to TS, I've found this thread extremely educational.  Yes there's an aspect of political debate where some folks are just locked into their opinions, but there's also a good amount of substance in here.  That's why I've kept tracking it.  Plus for me, having benefited tremendously from the advice posted in here, I am motivated to continue to provide objective data and comparisons so that hopefully this thread can help people in the future who are considering getting into MVCI or whether they should rescind.
> 
> One of the really interesting things for us was to learn that TS can be rented from eBay, Redweek, etc.  But to fully evaluate whether that'd work for us, we needed some of the postings on here to help us understand the process involved in that.  Ultimately, we decided we were willing to pay the premium that we did in order to never have to deal with that process; and at the same time, we're able to save money and have better access to nicer units than we'd have if we continued to just book our vacations on .com websites.
> 
> I'd expect that different people will come to different conclusions about whether Renting vs. Weeks vs. Trading vs. Points vs. Websites is right for them; and hopefully this thread can help with that, without being an advertisement for any single one of those options.


I agree some of the exchanges on these aspects have been interesting and informative.
It is the repeated claims of disbelief from a few that anyone still buys or can see any benefit in buying timeshares (because it can't ever make any sense can it?) which become rather frustrating and boring.
Unfortunately, there is no practical way to read the interesting posts without seeing the other ones.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Jason245 said:


> Insurance gives that flexibility. .and if you can't plan in advance .. ts isn't necessarily the right product.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



Absolutely false. Travel insurance would never cover this scenario. Think about it. How could it?


----------



## Jason245

Saintsfanfl said:


> Absolutely false. Travel insurance would never cover this scenario. Think about it. How could it?


Travel guard offers cancel for any reason insurance.  Why would that not cover this?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## Saintsfanfl

dioxide45 said:


> I think what is meant, if you only spend a small amount of money, you only have a small amount to lose. If you spend big bucks and it doesn't work out, you are out big bucks.





Jason245 said:


> That too..
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



Small amount and big bucks are different numbers for different people. Sometimes the differences are so big that there is literally no common ground.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Jason245 said:


> Travel guard offers cancel for any reason insurance.  Why would that not cover this?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



No it wouldn't. They will not cover booking a bunch of trips just to conveniently decide later which ones to keep. You would need to have something that occurs that prevents taking the trip. It can't simply be based on a change of mind or the decision to work instead.

Cancel for any reason really means for any reason beyond ones control.

You might get reimbursed for one but you need claim after claim after claim in this situation. It's never going to happen.


----------



## Jason245

Saintsfanfl said:


> No it wouldn't. They will not cover booking a bunch of trips just to conveniently decide later which ones to keep. You would need to have something that occurs that prevents taking the trip. It can't simply be based on a change of mind or the decision to work instead.
> 
> Cancel for any reason really means for any reason beyond ones control.



Santsfanfl, I respect you and the discourse we usually have, and have agreed to disagree with you on many occasions. That being said, usually you at least look up the source of what I write before outright denying it being valid.

Travelguard has the below policy and only 3 criteria. They clearly state that it is for ANY REASON as long as you cancel more than 48 hours before departure date as long as those criteria are met.

As long as you purchase the policy on each of the trips and they sold you the insurance, you would be covered. 


https://www.travelguard.com/cancel-for-any-reason/

*Cancel for Any Reason*

The Cancel for Any Reason (CFAR) option is available as an upgrade when you purchase the Platinum, Gold, or My Travel Guard plan and is a great option that allows travelers to cancel their trip for any reason that is not otherwise covered in their base plan, provided they cancel their trip more than 48 hours before their departure date.

*There are three criteria that must be met in order to be eligible for Cancel for Any Reason coverage:*
Provided the above criteria is met, and the Insured is prevented from taking the trip for any reason not otherwise covered by this plan, the insurer will reimburse the insured for a percentage of the prepaid, forfeited, non-refundable payments or deposits for insured trip arrangement(s) up to the maximum limit.


The CFAR coverage is purchased within 15 days of the initial trip deposit
The trip is cancelled more than 48 hours prior to scheduled departure
The full cost of all non-refundable, prepaid trip arrangements is insured at the time of purchase

Be sure to read your description of coverage.


----------



## GregT

Jason245 said:


> Santsfanfl, I respect you and the discourse we usually have, and have agreed to disagree with you on many occasions. That being said, usually you at least look up the source of what I write before outright denying it being valid.
> 
> Travelguard has the below policy and only 3 criteria. They clearly state that it is for ANY REASON as long as you cancel more than 48 hours before departure date as long as those criteria are met.
> 
> As long as you purchase the policy on each of the trips and they sold you the insurance, you would be covered.
> 
> 
> https://www.travelguard.com/cancel-for-any-reason/
> 
> *Cancel for Any Reason*
> 
> The Cancel for Any Reason (CFAR) option is available as an upgrade when you purchase the Platinum, Gold, or My Travel Guard plan and is a great option that allows travelers to cancel their trip for any reason that is not otherwise covered in their base plan, provided they cancel their trip more than 48 hours before their departure date.
> 
> *There are three criteria that must be met in order to be eligible for Cancel for Any Reason coverage:*
> Provided the above criteria is met, and the Insured is prevented from taking the trip for any reason not otherwise covered by this plan, the insurer will reimburse the insured for a percentage of the prepaid, forfeited, non-refundable payments or deposits for insured trip arrangement(s) up to the maximum limit.
> 
> 
> The CFAR coverage is purchased within 15 days of the initial trip deposit
> The trip is cancelled more than 48 hours prior to scheduled departure
> The full cost of all non-refundable, prepaid trip arrangements is insured at the time of purchase
> 
> Be sure to read your description of coverage.



Jason,

It's not clear to me how you propose that I combine insurance with my different reservation requirements to ensure that I retain the flexibility I current enjoy with timeshare cancellation policies. 

Using the recent Big Island trip as an example, would you advocate that I seek three separate reservations from owners via red week and then and then buy separate insurance policies to cover them?

Because one of the reservations did not have a Fri/Sat/Sun check-in, it would not have been available via redweek so I would have to commit to rack rate for it so that would have come with its own cancelation protection (at a premium cost) so I would really just need two policies.   Will they even sell me two policies if it's clear one (possibly both) will trigger. 

Thank you.


----------



## Jason245

GregT said:


> Jason,
> 
> It's not clear to me how you propose that I combine insurance with my different reservation requirements to ensure that I retain the flexibility I current enjoy with timeshare cancellation policies.
> 
> Using the recent Big Island trip as an example, would you advocate that I seek three separate reservations from owners via red week and then and then buy separate insurance policies to cover them?
> 
> Because one of the reservations did not have a Fri/Sat/Sun check-in, it would not have been available via redweek so I would have to commit to rack rate for it so that would have come with its own cancelation protection (at a premium cost) so I would really just need two policies.   Will they even sell me two policies if it's clear one (possibly both) will trigger.
> 
> Thank you.


Everyone has their own risk tollarance and loss allowance.  I can only suggest you read the terms and conditions and make the decisions that best align with your legal rights and obligations as associated with the insurance policies you purchase.  

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## GregT

Jason245 said:


> Everyone has their own risk tollarance and loss allowance.  I can only suggest you read the terms and conditions and make the decisions that best align with your legal rights and obligations as associated with the insurance policies you purchase.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



Jason,

I'm sorry, I don't think purchasing multiple cancellation policies to cover rented owner weeks is a superior approach.  

I think timeshares (with good cancelation policies) are the ideal way to deal with this uncertainty. 

Marriott/HGVC/Starwood/Worldmark all have attractive cancelation policies that make them viable alternatives.

Best,

Greg


----------



## Jason245

GregT said:


> Jason,
> 
> I'm sorry, I don't think purchasing multiple cancellation policies to cover rented owner weeks is a superior approach.
> 
> I think timeshares (with good cancelation policies) are the ideal way to deal with this uncertainty.
> 
> Marriott/HGVC/Starwood/Worldmark all have attractive cancelation policies that make them viable alternatives.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


To each their own.. but out of curiosity,  given your need to book at least 3 reservations for every trip,  do you use all your points?  

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## Quilter

Jason245 said:


> Santsfanfl, I respect you and the discourse we usually have, and have agreed to disagree with you on many occasions. That being said, usually you at least look up the source of what I write before outright denying it being valid.
> 
> Travelguard has the below policy and only 3 criteria. They clearly state that it is for ANY REASON as long as you cancel more than 48 hours before departure date as long as those criteria are met.
> 
> As long as you purchase the policy on each of the trips and they sold you the insurance, you would be covered.
> 
> 
> https://www.travelguard.com/cancel-for-any-reason/
> 
> *Cancel for Any Reason*
> 
> The Cancel for Any Reason (CFAR) option is available as an upgrade when you purchase the Platinum, Gold, or My Travel Guard plan and is a great option that allows travelers to cancel their trip for any reason that is not otherwise covered in their base plan, provided they cancel their trip more than 48 hours before their departure date.
> 
> *There are three criteria that must be met in order to be eligible for Cancel for Any Reason coverage:*
> Provided the above criteria is met, and the Insured is prevented from taking the trip for any reason not otherwise covered by this plan, the insurer will reimburse the insured for a percentage of the prepaid, forfeited, non-refundable payments or deposits for insured trip arrangement(s) up to the maximum limit.
> 
> 
> The CFAR coverage is purchased within 15 days of the initial trip deposit
> The trip is cancelled more than 48 hours prior to scheduled departure
> The full cost of all non-refundable, prepaid trip arrangements is insured at the time of purchase
> 
> Be sure to read your description of coverage.



This is exactly what I meant when I said you find the oddest tidbits of information buried in a thread of a completely different title.

I went to the link but it's complicated.   Can someone give me the Cliff Note version?   How much are these policies?  How does this relate to the insurance packages I purchase from Marriott for my annual usage?


----------



## Quilter

GoldenVIKE said:


> Regarding recent discussion about payback periods, here are the number of years to break even depending on how much you value a point in terms of its booking value.  On the low end are people that are perfectly happy or even prefer to do P2P bookings.  On the high end are people that would normally book on Marriott.com, but with TS would make a conscious attempt to maximize booking value.  The "bonus" points you get from buying direct from MVCI are valued at $0.70 in all examples though, since those don't come with any special benefits beyond what you'd get from renting them.  The example below is set at the 7,000 pt level - other levels would vary to some degree.
> 
> Direct=just signing up at presentation
> Hybrid=buying a combined points and enrolled week direct from Marriott (benchmark for week: $2.80/pt upfront + $0.40 pt annual MF)
> Resale=buying straight points resale @ $3.50/pt
> 
> Assuming $0 resale value of a point after you purchase it:
> 
> BookValue Direct Hybrid Resale
> $0.70 65 30 25
> $0.80 38 20 17
> $0.90 27 15 12
> $1.00 21 12 10
> $1.10 17 10 8
> $1.20 14 9 7
> $1.30 12 8 6
> $1.40 11 7 5
> $1.50 10 6 5
> 
> Assuming $3/pt resale value of a point after you purchase it:
> 
> BookValue Direct Hybrid Resale
> $0.70 45 15 13
> $0.80 26 10 8
> $0.90 18 8 6
> $1.00 14 6 5
> $1.10 12 5 4
> $1.20 10 5 4
> $1.30 9 4 3
> $1.40 8 4 3
> $1.50 7 3 2



Very interesting number crunching.   You do have the brain for this.

However. . .

After the ink dries on the recission period the break even won't matter.   You will not need to keep track for anything but your own delight of playing with numbers.  It's not like a savings account you can draw from.   

Your breakeven will be in the intangible form of memories.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Jason245 said:


> *snip**and the Insured is prevented from taking the trip**snip*



You missed this key point in your quote from the AIG website. Who defines "prevented"? Does "I changed my mind" mean I am "prevented" from going? I guarantee you that the insurance company will not agree that "I changed my mind" is a valid reason for full reimbursement of a 100% prepaid redweek rental. 

Even if they did pony up based on a covered work issue or it really was any reason they wouldn't keep selling loads of policies to the same person that cancels 10 trips a year. If they did they would price them so they will make an ongoing profit, which really defeats the purpose of a frequent traveler.


----------



## Quilter

GoldenVIKE said:


> They're "free trips" thrown in.  Today if you go sign up at presentation for say 2,000 points, you'll get a "free trip" (i.e. 2,000 extra points for one-time use) for signing up at presentation, plus another 2,000 point "free trip" if you finance at least 70% of the purchase and keep the loan active for at least 18 months.  On the latter, the net effect of the free trip plus tax writeoff, minus the interest you pay in 18 months, is pretty solid so I included it in my calculations.  If you decline to finance then both "direct" deals above are SLIGHTLY less attractive, but not nearly enough so that it'd impact the payoff periods.



If I recall, the PlusPoints had stipulations that restricted their use.   Or was it just the fact that their expiration date made it difficult to reserve certain properties in the desired timeframe?   Or that it was difficult to find something that used the exact amount of points without having to waste the leftovers?

We only got 800 and at the time of roll out.  In a seminar held at OP we were told they could be used for hotels.   When I tried to use them as such it wasn't allowable for the hotel we wanted.   Yet, with the help of one Marriott executive who is no longer in the MVC sector, we were able to trade these points for a couple nights in the hotel we wanted.


----------



## Jason245

Saintsfanfl said:


> You missed this key point in your quote from the AIG website. Who defines "prevented"? Does "I changed my mind" mean I am "prevented" from going? I guarantee you that the insurance company will not agree that "I changed my mind" is a valid reason for full reimbursement of a 100% prepaid redweek rental.
> 
> Even if they did pony up based on a covered work issue or it really was any reason they wouldn't keep selling loads of policies to the same person that cancels 10 trips a year. If they did they would price them so they will make an ongoing profit, which really defeats the purpose of a frequent traveler.



That sentance refers to the base plan since this is an add on plan. 

If you read the entire sentance (and not just one word of it) you would get the context. 

Provided the above criteria is met, and the *Insured is prevented from taking the trip for any reason not otherwise covered by this plan*, the insurer will reimburse the insured for a percentage of the prepaid, forfeited, non-refundable payments or deposits for insured trip arrangement(s) up to the maximum limit.

Simple English:

If the purchases of this additional coverage is prevented from taking the trip for reasons not otherwise ensured (like illness), then this additional coverage covers you.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Saintsfanfl said:


> You missed this key point in your quote from the AIG website. Who defines "prevented"? Does "I changed my mind" mean I am "prevented" from going? I guarantee you that the insurance company will not agree that "I changed my mind" is a valid reason for full reimbursement of a 100% prepaid redweek rental.
> 
> Even if they did pony up based on a covered work issue or it really was any reason they wouldn't keep selling loads of policies to the same person that cancels 10 trips a year. If they did they would price them so they will make an ongoing profit, which really defeats the purpose of a frequent traveler.



After reading into CFAR further it appears to be an expensive add-on option and many times will not cover 100% of the costs. So in GregT's case even if he could have made that many rental reservations and bought that many policies and filed that many claims the insurance policy costs and reimbursements limits would likely make such a plan less feasible than what he is already doing. And definitely far more work and headache.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Jason245 said:


> That sentance refers to the base plan since this is an add on plan.
> 
> If you read the entire sentance (and not just one word of it) you would get the context.
> 
> Provided the above criteria is met, and the *Insured is prevented from taking the trip for any reason not otherwise covered by this plan*, the insurer will reimburse the insured for a percentage of the prepaid, forfeited, non-refundable payments or deposits for insured trip arrangement(s) up to the maximum limit.
> 
> Simple English:
> 
> If the purchases of this additional coverage is prevented from taking the trip for reasons not otherwise ensured (like illness), then this additional coverage covers you.



It's a *percentage*, with a cap. Why would anyone plan to do that with so many known cancellations? Why would that be better than what he is already doing? Even if you could possibly come out ahead on a routine and continual basis, the insurance company wouldn't keep selling you policies.


----------



## Quilter

GregT said:


> Because one of the reservations did not have a Fri/Sat/Sun check-in, it would not have been available via redweek so I would have to commit to rack rate for it so that would have come with its own cancelation protection (at a premium cost) so I would really just need two policies.   Will they even sell me two policies if it's clear one (possibly both) will trigger.
> 
> Thank you.



Oh dear I'm going to get censored soon for repeating myself. . .

The simplest way to work the MVC system is to develop a trusting relationship with an owner at Chairman level who can reserve the time you want.   No need to commit to rack rates for a reservation that does not have a Fri/Sat/Sun check-in.


----------



## Jason245

Saintsfanfl said:


> It's a *percentage*, with a cap. Why would anyone plan to do that with so many known cancellations? Why would that be better than what he is already doing? Even if you could possibly come out ahead on a routine and continual basis, the insurance company wouldn't keep selling you policies.


I don't make their business model or decide for them which products they offer or don't offer. I also dont set their rates. That is what their actuarial analysis is for.  

I am simply presenting information. I don't sell their products.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Jason245 said:


> I don't make their business model or decide for them which products they offer or don't offer. I also dont set their rates. That is what their actuarial analysis is for.
> 
> I am simply presenting information. I don't sell their products.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



I know but you are making a case that their policies would satisfy GregT's booking methods with rentals instead of using the DC. It is not a valid argument because the cost would be extensive not to mention one has to be willing to book from owner rentals in the first place. It would be a royal pain and likely more expensive. It would defeat the purpose of the "cheaper alternative" argument. Some of his reservations would be very expensive even as an owner rental.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Quilter said:


> Oh dear I'm going to get censored soon for repeating myself. . .
> 
> The simplest way to work the MVC system is to develop a trusting relationship with an owner at Chairman level who can reserve the time you want.   No need to commit to rack rates for a reservation that does not have a Fri/Sat/Sun check-in.



GregT was countering the argument that one can rent from owners and does not need to mess with DC points to begin with. 

Developing a trusting relationship with an owner at chairman level isn't going to be an option for the masses.


----------



## Jason245

Saintsfanfl said:


> I know but you are making a case that their policies would satisfy GregT's booking methods with rentals instead of using the DC. It is not a valid argument because the cost would be extensive not to mention one has to be willing to book from owner rentals in the first place. It would be a royal pain and likely more expensive. It would defeat the purpose of the "cheaper alternative" argument. Some of his reservations would be very expensive even as an owner rental.


If someone needs to make a minimum of 3 or 4 reservations every trip, they would need a ton of excess points and or ownerships. . Long run there may be mf dollars  being thrown in the toilet just to cover that need. 

I am presenting alternatives. .. ultimately every alternative needs to be measured and analyzed given the circumstances involved. This is one that many were not aware of.  

Everyone's situation is different. I doubt that the vast majority of tug reader ts owners buy with the inability to commit to dates a while in advance.  Heck it is actually one of the questions  tug has on the "what should I buy" thread.  





Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## davidvel

GoldenVIKE said:


> Regarding recent discussion about payback periods, here are the number of years to break even depending on how much you value a point in terms of its booking value.  On the low end are people that are perfectly happy or even prefer to do P2P bookings.  On the high end are people that would normally book on Marriott.com, but with TS would make a conscious attempt to maximize booking value.  The "bonus" points you get from buying direct from MVCI are valued at $0.70 in all examples though, since those don't come with any special benefits beyond what you'd get from renting them.  The example below is set at the 7,000 pt level - other levels would vary to some degree.
> 
> Direct=just signing up at presentation
> Hybrid=buying a combined points and enrolled week direct from Marriott (benchmark for week: $2.80/pt upfront + $0.40 pt annual MF)
> Resale=buying straight points resale @ $3.50/pt
> 
> Assuming $0 resale value of a point after you purchase it:
> 
> BookValue Direct Hybrid Resale
> $0.70 65 30 25
> $0.80 38 20 17
> $0.90 27 15 12
> $1.00 21 12 10
> $1.10 17 10 8
> $1.20 14 9 7
> $1.30 12 8 6
> $1.40 11 7 5
> $1.50 10 6 5
> 
> Assuming $3/pt resale value of a point after you purchase it:
> 
> BookValue Direct Hybrid Resale
> $0.70 45 15 13
> $0.80 26 10 8
> $0.90 18 8 6
> $1.00 14 6 5
> $1.10 12 5 4
> $1.20 10 5 4
> $1.30 9 4 3
> $1.40 8 4 3
> $1.50 7 3 2


If I'm reading the charts corectly, you calculate a 14 year "break even", and 10 year "break even" (if you later sell at 3/pt), for a direct purchase that one values at a 1.10 booking value (for booking at Marriott.com)?


----------



## davidvel

Jason245 said:


> If someone needs to make a minimum of 3 or 4 reservations every trip, they would need a ton of excess points and or ownerships. . Long run there may be mf dollars  being thrown in the toilet just to cover that need.
> 
> I am presenting alternatives. .. ultimately every alternative needs to be measured and analyzed given the circumstances involved. This is one that many were not aware of.
> 
> Everyone's situation is different. I doubt that the vast majority of tug reader ts owners buy with the inability to commit to dates a while in advance.  Heck it is actually one of the questions  tug has on the "what should I buy" thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


Without speaking for Greg, and not really realted to the topic at hand, I highly doubt he lets his points go unused...

And you did start by claiming that this insurance is a replacement for the cancelation flexibility (did I really just use that term?) Greg was referencing. Without knowing the cost for this "any reason" (hard to fathom) coverage and the percentage it reimburses,  it's impossible  to determine its value in relation to the cost of DC points.


----------



## Quilter

Saintsfanfl said:


> GregT was countering the argument that one can rent from owners and does not need to mess with DC points to begin with.
> 
> Developing a trusting relationship with an owner at chairman level isn't going to be an option for the masses.



I was respectfully countering the countering . . .not all redweek ads begin on a Fri/Sat/Sun and run for 7 days.  Rentals can be made with a check-in midweek and run for any number of days.

And I respectfully counter that just because something doesn't work for the masses it shouldn't be discussed.   I know many who gladly take advantage of the benefits and simplicity of reserving through an owner without an ongoing commitment to MF's.


----------



## davidvel

Saintsfanfl said:


> GregT was countering the argument that one can rent from owners and does not need to mess with DC points to begin with.
> 
> Developing a trusting relationship with an owner at chairman level isn't going to be an option for the masses.


I thought the point of TUG was to help people not be "the masses."


----------



## Marathoner

Quilter said:


> We only got 800 and at the time of roll out.  In a seminar held at OP we were told they could be used for hotels.   When I tried to use them as such it wasn't allowable for the hotel we wanted.   Yet, with the help of one Marriott executive who is no longer in the MVC sector, we were able to trade these points for a couple nights in the hotel we wanted.



Hi, could you please explain in more detail how we can book Marriott hotels with Plus Points? Thank you. 

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk


----------



## GoldenVIKE

davidvel said:


> If I'm reading the charts corectly, you calculate a 14 year "break even", and 10 year "break even" (if you later sell at 3/pt), for a direct purchase that one values at a 1.10 booking value (for booking at Marriott.com)?



If you consider the booking value of a point to be $1.10, then your breakeven from a standard direct sale (not a hybrid package) is 17 years if it turns out you can't sell your points back.  If you can sell your points back at $3/point, then the breakeven exit period is 12 years.

The amount that you value the booking value of a point at is a function of how you value alternative methods of booking trips, and the associated pros and cons of those.  I personally value the points at roughly the cost of booking an equivalent room on Marriott.com (around $1.30 or so on average, even though in some cases you can get $2.00 or so) because using DC affords you the opportunity to have more access to bigger and a wider variety of rooms at 13 months out.  Of course there are some drawbacks which is why I don't value them at $1.50 which you could easily achieve by working the system).  Others value the booking value of a point closer to $0.70 because they don't seem to be bothered by the inconveniences and relative lack of flexibility that you get from going Peer-to-Peer.  I assume even the hardcore renters would place SOME value in the autonomy and flexibility associated with points, which is why I set the low end at $0.70 instead of $0.55 or $0.60. (The going rent for renting points)

For folks that value points at $0.70 or anywhere near the low end, there's really no form of TS Points ownership that'd likely make sense to them.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

Jason245 said:


> If someone needs to make a minimum of 3 or 4 reservations every trip, they would need a ton of excess points and or ownerships. . Long run there may be mf dollars  being thrown in the toilet just to cover that need.
> 
> I am presenting alternatives. .. ultimately every alternative needs to be measured and analyzed given the circumstances involved. This is one that many were not aware of.
> 
> Everyone's situation is different. I doubt that the vast majority of tug reader ts owners buy with the inability to commit to dates a while in advance.  Heck it is actually one of the questions  tug has on the "what should I buy" thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



This is interesting but even setting aside whatever these policies cost, the thought of taking out an insurance policy on our vacation trips and then having to file claims on the ones we cancel makes me want to gouge my eyes out.  Have you actually done this?  

A word of caution from someone that works in insurance:  many policies advertise themselves with broad terminology.  For example, an "all risk" property policy does not typically (ever?) cover "all risks".  There are exclusions in every insurance policy, and regardless of what the website may say I'd recommend reading the actual policy itself.  As noted above, even if no exclusions apply to this "Cancel for Any Reason" insurance, the website itself says that it covers a percentage of the trip up to a certain limit.  https://www.travelguard.com/cancel-for-any-reason/


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## Jason245

GoldenVIKE said:


> This is interesting but even setting aside whatever these policies cost, the thought of taking out an insurance policy on our vacation trips and then having to file claims on the ones we cancel makes me want to gouge my eyes out.  Have you actually done this?
> 
> A word of caution from someone that works in insurance:  many policies advertise themselves with broad terminology.  For example, an "all risk" property policy does not typically (ever?) cover "all risks".  There are exclusions in every insurance policy, and regardless of what the website may say I'd recommend reading the actual policy itself.  As noted above, even if no exclusions apply to this "Cancel for Any Reason" insurance, the website itself says that it covers a percentage of the trip up to a certain limit.  https://www.travelguard.com/cancel-for-any-reason/


I have successfully used numerous insurance policies over the years.. ironically,  the most underused by consumers and valuable are credit card protections. I have used price protection, purchase protection  and warranty extension benefits so much that the annual fees on some cards have more than paid for themselves. 

It amazes me how much money most people leave on the table and how little effort is required to actually collect it. 







Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## GoldenVIKE

Jason245 said:


> I have successfully used numerous insurance policies over the years.. ironically,  the most underused by consumers and valuable are credit card protections. I have used price protection, purchase protection  and warranty extension benefits so much that the annual fees on some cards have more than paid for themselves.
> 
> It amazes me how much money most people leave on the table and how little effort is required to actually collect it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



totally agree.  i think every AmEx card automatically doubles the mfr warranty on practically everything you can purchase with a credit card.  i've only used it once (on a refurbished Blu Ray player) but it was pretty easy.


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## Fasttr

Jason245 said:


> If someone needs to make a minimum of 3 or 4 reservations every trip, they would need a ton of excess points and or ownerships. . Long run there may be mf dollars  being thrown in the toilet just to cover that need.


GregT uses a method he refers to as "parking points".  Lets say you have a total of 9000 points.  Perhaps with those points, you want to take a vacation in Feb, June and Oct and plan to use approx. 3000 points for each of them.  So for the Feb trip, at 13 months out, he will book 3 differing DC ressies at different locations in the month of February.  He knows he will only take one trip in Feb, but why commit to a location and exact date 13 months out if he doesn't have to.  He has the points, so why just book one ressie and be locked in when the rest of his points will not have a use until he has to book the June trip four months from his initial booking for the Feb trip. 

When the 13 month window for needing to book the June trip rolls around, GregT will decide which one (or two) of the Feb trips he is not likely to take, and he will cancel that (or them), and with the freed up points (be it 3000 if he cancelled one, or 6000 if he cancelled two) he will book one or two June ressies....and so on and so forth.

His philosophy....why let your points sit in your account unused....might as well solidify a reservation he might use....or might rent....or might cancel.  That affords him a lot of flexibility.

I often use a similar approach.


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## Jason245

Fasttr said:


> GregT uses a method he refers to as "parking points".  Lets say you have a total of 9000 points.  Perhaps with those points, you want to take a vacation in Feb, June and Oct and plan to use approx. 3000 points for each of them.  So for the Feb trip, at 13 months out, he will book 3 differing DC ressies at different locations in the month of February.  He knows he will only take one trip in Feb, but why commit to a location and exact date 13 months out if he doesn't have to.  He has the points, so why just book one ressie and be locked in when the rest of his points will not have a use until he has to book the June trip four months from his initial booking for the Feb trip.
> 
> When the 13 month window for needing to book the June trip rolls around, GregT will decide which one (or two) of the Feb trips he is not likely to take, and he will cancel that (or them), and with the freed up points (be it 3000 if he cancelled one, or 6000 if he cancelled two) he will book one or two June ressies....and so on and so forth.
> 
> His philosophy....why let your points sit in your account unused....might as well solidify a reservation he might use....or might rent....or might cancel.  That affords him a lot of flexibility.
> 
> I often use a similar approach.


Seems like an idiosyncratic situation..but as a family friend says.. it is all about piking the lock on the terms and conditions..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## JIMinNC

Quilter said:


> Oh dear I'm going to get censored soon for repeating myself. . .
> 
> The simplest way to work the MVC system is to develop a trusting relationship with an owner at Chairman level who can reserve the time you want.   No need to commit to rack rates for a reservation that does not have a Fri/Sat/Sun check-in.



But in Greg T's example where he books multiple reservations on different dates because of work uncertainty, and then cancels the ones he can't use when he pins down the date he can travel, how would that work with your Chairman's Level rental approach? My take is he would have to pay the Chairman Owner for all the reservations right? Then what happens when he cancels? Do you give him his money back? Even if you tried to work with him and refunded the unwanted reservations the first time it happened, how would you react when Greg called you back next year wanting to do the same thing?

Granted, I could see where Greg's situation is not typical, but even us, with our limited ownership, have canceled four reservations in the three years we've owned Marriott Points. None were because of issues that "prevented" us from traveling that would tend to be covered by an insurance policy; there were just factors that caused US to change our minds. Most recently, we canceled a planned four-day late June trip to HHI because we had second thoughts about going again in the heat of the summer. I doubt that "fear of uncontrolled sweating" would fit the insurer's definition of "prevented". I suspect we would have been out of luck if our canceled reservations were the type of rentals you are speaking of. Despite the cancellations, at no time have we lost the utilization/value of our points, with the exception of 75 excess points that are leftover in the holding account and 25 Legacy points that couldn't be used for a booking that was mainly booked with Trust points. We may still find a way to use those 100 points before they expire in December 2017, but if we can't, so what? It's $53.

*Update:* _By total coincidence I just stumbled on a use for those 100 orphan points mentioned just above. See post #334. So now, ALL points from the reservations we had to cancel have been successfully used for other bookings. No shrinkage at all._


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## taffy19

Saintsfanfl said:


> Absolutely false. Travel insurance would never cover this scenario. Think about it. How could it?


Travel insurance is very limited and you need to have proof from a doctor plus receipts for everything.  There is also a limit when you can submit your bill and paid receipts.

This happened to me when I had a fall in Europe and had broken bones.  The hospital took care of it but they didn't give me a bill when I asked for it.  Over a year later, I received a bill but the insurance wouldn't pay it anymore.

If you insure your timeshare, it also covers limited stuff plus you need receipts and valid reasons.  Changing your mind is not one of them.

PS.  After reading this thread further, I have a question.  Would insurance even cover one private party to another?


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## GregT

Fasttr, thank you for explaining Parking Points. 

DavidVel, you are correct that my points do not go unused or are allowed to expire.  

Quilter, you are right that having a trusted Chairmans Club person who is willing to make reservations for you allows you to leverage their status with no personal investment. I've made reservations using my CC for several TUGgers for exactly that reason - but they were all people I knew.  I don't think that works for the person who is hoping to avoid the timeshare ownership conundrum. 

Jason, has insuring your vacations been your standard approach and how much was the premium? Have you needed to submit claims and how easy was it to get paid?  

Thank you. 

Greg


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## Saintsfanfl

Jason. I just got a quote from Travel Guard for a simple $2,000 rental. It is $217 for the policy and CFAR only covers 50%. In other words I would net a loss of $1,217 if I were to cancel. If I were to make three reservations using the method you suggest, and then cancel two, I would pay a whopping $2,651 in insurance for the the $2,000 rental ((217x3)+1000+1000).  Does that really seem like a viable option? 

Filing a claim for work reasons would require a notarized statement from an officer of the company. That type of claim isn't going to be accepted over and over again.


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## davidvel

GoldenVIKE said:


> If you consider the booking value of a point to be $1.10, then your breakeven from a standard direct sale (not a hybrid package) is 17 years if it turns out you can't sell your points back.  If you can sell your points back at $3/point, then the breakeven exit period is 12 years.


My mistake, I was looking at the 1.20 row.


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## BocaBoy

Jason, I find it odd that for someone who accuses others of throwing away their money on timeshares, that you advocate numerous EXPENSIVE cancel-for-any reason insurance policies as a routine matter.  For a single expensive trip, yes, but for all trips as an alternative to ownership?  Your comments consistently dismiss all contrary opinions in a conclusory fashion without really addressing their substance, no matter how well thought out, and you offer this as an alternative?  Really?


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## JIMinNC

Ironically, I just completed an unexpected transaction that demonstrates what I like so much about Points...

As you can see from my signature, we've got a trip coming up to Marriott's Barony Beach Club HHI in April. It's during the RBC Heritage PGA tournament. Ours is a Sunday to Sunday reservation, so I had originally planned to leave town and drive back to Charlotte after the final round of the tournament wraps up around 6pm or 7pm on Sunday the 16th, meaning we would arrive home at 11pm or so - maybe later if it took a while to get from the tournament to our car using the tournament shuttle buses. Upon reflection, I decided I really didn't want to drive four hours after spending six or seven hours walking around Harbour Town Golf Links watching golf. So I went onto the MVCI website to see what might be available for that one night, April 16. Barony was available at 350 points, but then I saw the gem - Marriott's Heritage Club had an orphan night available for April 16 for only 200 points. Heritage Club is literally right across the street from Harbour Town Golf Course. We can check out of Barony Sunday mid-late morning, drive to Heritage Club, get my parking pass and park the car, walk to the tournament, enjoy the final round, walk back to Heritage Club after play has ended, and claim the room. I also verified with Heritage Club front desk that they would let me park there before the 4pm check-in time as long as I had a reservation for that night.

This allowed me to use the orphan 75 holding account Trust Points and 25 Legacy Points that I just mentioned up in post #328 and didn't have another good use for prior to the end of 2017 expiration. It only required that I borrow 100 points from 2018, which has a "cost" of probably $55 or so (estimating what the 2018 Points MF might be). If I later find that I need those 100 points for 2018, I can rent points to replace them. I first considered going ahead and renting 100 use year 2017 points to complete the transaction without borrowing, but there were no 2017 Points listed on VPE, so I went ahead and borrowed and said we'll deal with the shortfall later if need be. That way I was also able to complete the Points transaction without waiting to complete a point rental transfer, before someone else grabbed that night.

So, for a points "cost" of about $108 for one night (only $55 of which is using points that I might have had another use for; the 100 orphan points might have gone unused), I have a place to stay Sunday night within walking distance of the golf tournament.


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## Quilter

Marathoner said:


> Hi, could you please explain in more detail how we can book Marriott hotels with Plus Points? Thank you.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk



Sorry, I can't.  When the DC was rolled out a corporate management person came to OP to discuss benefits.  Hotel reservations were one  of those.  When I wasn't able to get what I needed he figured a way to trade my points for the hotel.  I think it was a unique situation.


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## Jason245

BocaBoy said:


> Jason, I find it odd that for someone who accuses others of throwing away their money on timeshares, that you advocate numerous EXPENSIVE cancel-for-any reason insurance policies as a routine matter.  For a single expensive trip, yes, but for all trips as an alternative to ownership?  Your comments consistently dismiss all contrary opinions in a conclusory fashion without really addressing their substance, no matter how well thought out, and you offer this as an alternative?  Really?




Show me one post I have ever made where I accused someone of throwing away money on a timeshare. My objective has always been education and making sure that any retail purchaser has all the information to make an educated and informed decision.

I have not advocated a single insurance policy, I just pointed out that it at least exists AFTER you so boldly challenged me to "add new perspectives".  I did that and at lease one person found it interesting, and new and a tid bit they found important.

Everyone has their own circumstances and situations.  I have a finance background, I have read countless threads of people who have bought from developers only to regret it later, On the TUG marketplace there are literally hundreds if not thousands of quality rentals. OP is nervious about renting or doing business with private individuals, I present a way to alleviate their concern and you attack me by saying saying it is too expensive. 

As best I can tell, OP is planning on using their points for themselves and not playing the book 3 reservations and keep 1 game.  By my guess it will be for 1 or 2 reservations a year.

Even at 2% return that $30k provides $600 to cover the cost of insurance and some extra money for MF vs Rental cost difference, and any year you don't go on vacation (or maybe go somewhere where there is no MVC or where you would have to spend extra money on an exchange out of MVC to somewhere else) you have $600 in your pocket.   No Club dues, no changing terms and conditions, no perpetual commitments or worry about liquidation before "pay back".

I admit I don't know enough about MVC to know the true difference between rental rates and MF on the points level, but you better believe I would want to know this information if it was part of my analysis.

What solutions do you offer? Or are you activly advocating purchase from a developer as being the advise TUG should give? What do you have to add to the conversation other then to state that I am adding nothing and my every suggestion is terrible and that I am walking around telling others they are wrong?

What substance have I not addressed?  To that end, What substance have you addressed?


----------



## Quilter

Fasttr said:


> GregT uses a method he refers to as "parking points".  Lets say you have a total of 9000 points.  Perhaps with those points, you want to take a vacation in Feb, June and Oct and plan to use approx. 3000 points for each of them.  So for the Feb trip, at 13 months out, he will book 3 differing DC ressies at different locations in the month of February.  He knows he will only take one trip in Feb, but why commit to a location and exact date 13 months out if he doesn't have to.  He has the points, so why just book one ressie and be locked in when the rest of his points will not have a use until he has to book the June trip four months from his initial booking for the Feb trip.
> 
> When the 13 month window for needing to book the June trip rolls around, GregT will decide which one (or two) of the Feb trips he is not likely to take, and he will cancel that (or them), and with the freed up points (be it 3000 if he cancelled one, or 6000 if he cancelled two) he will book one or two June ressies....and so on and so forth.
> 
> His philosophy....why let your points sit in your account unused....might as well solidify a reservation he might use....or might rent....or might cancel.  That affords him a lot of flexibility.
> 
> I often use a similar approach.



I do too.   I've had to learn, though, not to get caught on Saturday having all my points locked up in reservations and then being unable to reserve something wonderful on a Sunday when Owner Services is closed.


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## Quilter

Insurance talk is interesting.

I brought some paperwork with me on this trip.   One item was the travel insurance papers for a trip missed last year due to pneumonia.   It was a missed week in the 1 bedroom portion of a unit at OP.   Talked to the insurance company about the $ amount to put in box.   She said to write "as per Marriott".  Curious to see what rate they will use.   Will it be the rack rate they were quoting on marriott.com?


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## Quilter

Is the trip insurance on the Marriott Visa applicable to our weeks if we paid maintenance fee with the Visa?


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## JIMinNC

Marathoner said:


> Hi, could you please explain in more detail how we can book Marriott hotels with Plus Points? Thank you.





Quilter said:


> Sorry, I can't.  When the DC was rolled out a corporate management person came to OP to discuss benefits.  Hotel reservations were one  of those.  When I wasn't able to get what I needed he figured a way to trade my points for the hotel.  I think it was a unique situation.



There are a small number of Marriott hotels that are available within the Explorer Collection choices that can be booked on a nightly basis using Destination Club Points. So as long as the PlusPoints aren't restricted from accessing Explorer Collection choices, they could be used to book the limited set of hotels that are offered as part of that Collection. Those hotels, however, tend to require A LOT of Destination Club points, usually a lot more per night than a typical MVCI timeshare night


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## davidvel

Jason245 said:


> I admit I don't know enough about MVC to know the true difference between rental rates and MF on the points level, but you better believe I would want to know this information if it was part of my analysis.


You may have missed this post from the OP: Just Joined Marriott Vacation Club - Was it a good choice?

Based on a spot check of the listings it is a reasonable representation of the "cost" of reserving the dates at FULL (non-discounted senior/AAA/7VC) retail rates on Marriott.com

That being said, many of these were likely run close in time to the travel date, where inventory is limited and prices at their highest, from my experience on some of the locations/rates. And some of the highest $/DC point numbers are next to impossible reservations with DC points. I would say its on the high side of what you would actually pay at marriott.com (and certainly far from a guarantee that you could ever reserve the hypothetical dates with DC points.)


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## Jason245

davidvel said:


> You may have missed this post from the OP: Just Joined Marriott Vacation Club - Was it a good choice?
> 
> Based on a spot check of the listings it is a reasonable representation of the "cost" of reserving the dates at FULL (non-discounted senior/AAA/7VC) retail rates on Marriott.com
> 
> That being said, many of these were likely run close in time to the travel date, where inventory is limited and prices at their highest, from my experience on some of the locations/rates. And some of the highest $/DC point numbers are next to impossible reservations with DC points. I would say its on the high side of what you would actually pay at marriott.com (and certainly far from a guarantee that you could ever reserve the hypothetical dates with DC points.)




Let me clarify:

How much are the MF for a 2BR at Marriot Cypress Harbor? (Currently 2BR are available for $1350 - $1800 range) and how many points does that take?

How much are MF for 2BR at  Lakeshore Reserve (currently offered at 1875) and how many points does that take?

What about some of the other options?

Based on original post, OP says that MF and other fees max out at $0.58/point. that equates to an annual MF of $2320. I don't know what those 4k points will get one... will it get a 2BR for a week? a 3BR for a week? a 1BR for 2 weeks.

How much would it cost to rent the equivalent ownership? would it really cost $6k as OP suggests? or less than $4400 as the survey suggests?

lets assume $4400 (and assume that OP wouldn't decide to get a lower quality resort to stay at in the $1-2k rental range for a week)  to the $2320 example.  4400-2320 = $2080.  $30k (assuming no interest earned on money)/ 2080 = 14 years of renting before owning becomes a better deal.  Add any extra fees for exchanges or points savings and of course the actual interest earned on the money etc... and the time increases.  If the OP decides that they are open to not MVC resorts and rents elsewhere where rentals may be equal or less than the MF at MVC, then the time is even larger. 

in this game you are only limited by your willingness to compare your options and how big a pool you are willing to use for your population.  When I do my own analysis, I actually compare rentals to what a true similar rental would be within both hotels (competitors and same), Home away, AirBNB etc. 

again, there is no right answer except the one that is right for you.

For example,  my hgvc cost per point in mf make orlando stays a break even deal at best, but in Marco Island a great deal.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

Jason245 said:


> Let me clarify:
> 
> How much are the MF for a 2BR at Marriot Cypress Harbor? (Currently 2BR are available for $1350 - $1800 range) and how many points does that take?
> 
> How much are MF for 2BR at  Lakeshore Reserve (currently offered at 1875) and how many points does that take?
> 
> What about some of the other options?
> 
> Based on original post, OP says that MF and other fees max out at $0.58/point. that equates to an annual MF of $2320. I don't know what those 4k points will get one... will it get a 2BR for a week? a 3BR for a week? a 1BR for 2 weeks.
> 
> How much would it cost to rent the equivalent ownership? would it really cost $6k as OP suggests? or less than $4400 as the survey suggests?
> 
> lets assume $4400 (and assume that OP wouldn't decide to get a lower quality resort to stay at in the $1-2k rental range for a week)  to the $2320 example.  4400-2320 = $2080.  $30k (assuming no interest earned on money)/ 2080 = 14 years of renting before owning becomes a better deal.  Add any extra fees for exchanges or points savings and of course the actual interest earned on the money etc... and the time increases.  If the OP decides that they are open to not MVC resorts and rents elsewhere where rentals may be equal or less than the MF at MVC, then the time is even larger.
> 
> in this game you are only limited by your willingness to compare your options and how big a pool you are willing to use for your population.  When I do my own analysis, I actually compare rentals to what a true similar rental would be within both hotels (competitors and same), Home away, AirBNB etc..
> 
> again, there is no right answer except the one that is right for you.
> 
> For example,  my hgvc cost per point in mf make orlando stays a break even deal at best, but in Marco Island a great deal.



Annual MF+Membership due cost per point is $0.50 on our particular hybrid deal and includes the $225/yr membership due.  The $0.40/point MF on our enrolled week brought this down from the $0.53 standard MF/pt direct from the developer.  Adding in the membership due brought it up to $0.57 in our original deal.

Opportunity cost isn't relevant on the calculation of returns; although it is relevant when evaluating the end result and deciding whether to do it.  If the return was 5% then it'd be worth noting that there are more-liquid low-risk investments that could return the same.  In the past 5 years 30-yr treasuries have hovered around 3% interest.   TS is a pretty low-risk investment overall so long as you value the booking value of a point, but it's not liquid at all.  Stock market performance generally averages 10% returns (with reinvested dividends) over long periods of time, so I'd argue that if you can get close to 10% returns on any investment with lower overall risk than DJIA you're doing pretty well.

For kicks, here are the IRRs for TS points based on the 3 ways we've discussed acquiring, and adjusted for new info learned since the first post:

BookingVal Resale Hybrid Direct
$1.00 8.55% 7.20% 2.50%
$1.10 10.45% 8.93% 3.95%
$1.20 12.35% 10.65% 5.40%
$1.30 14.10% *12.20%* 6.60%
$1.40 15.85% 13.75% 7.80%
$1.50 17.53% 15.20% 8.90%

I've bolded where we feel we are in this, but Jason will be firmly "above" the chart (valuing points <$1) so for him TS doesnt make financial sense.

To be clear, the financial piece is a component, and I wouldnt have done this if there's not a decent argument that it makes financial sense on some level, but overall the decision to own TS (regardless of format) is about a lot more than the financials.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

Jason245 said:


> I don't know what those 4k points will get one... will it get a 2BR for a week? a 3BR for a week? a 1BR for 2 weeks.



BTW: https://fabtimeshare.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/DC-Points-chart-2017.pdf


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## Jason245

GoldenVIKE said:


> but Jason will be firmly "above" the chart (valuing points <$1) so for him TS doesnt make financial sense.



I have said that I don't know enough to answer. I am nowhere on the chart.

To put it in another way, If I were to be told that the TS cost $30k, and for that $30k and $2500 in MF a year, I could get Week 52 in a 4BR presidential suit in time square, I would tell you that it is an amazing deal worth every single penny. If that same $30k and $2500/year in MF can only get me a studio in Orlando for week 3, I would tell you it is a terrible deal. 

and I own a TS, so it makes financial sense to me (technically since I own an EOY Even and EOY Odd, I own two ).


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## Jason245

GoldenVIKE said:


> BTW: https://fabtimeshare.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/DC-Points-chart-2017.pdf



Based on my brief review, it looks like somewhere between 1-2 weeks in a 2BR depending on season.  Assuming 2% interest on the $30k. 

So if we assume on the high end, we get 2 full weeks in a 2BR, the rental rate for the same is $2500/week ($5k/year) @2% interest we are talking about 12 years for cashflow breakeven.  At 4400 rental it is 17-18 years before cashflow breakeven.  If you can rent them for 4k or less it is over 22 years. 

In all honesty, if it was me and I was dead set on making the purchase from MVC, based on these point charts, I would probably want a minimum of 6k+ points for those MF dollars, I would tell them to keep all their bonuses and other Crap (which will be gone in a relatively short period of time) and instead insist that they give me more perpetual points at lower cost per point MF dollar (if at all possible).  Bonus points are gone once used, but perpetual points that can guarantee 3 weeks in a 2BR  at low MF $$ is a perpetual benefit that will pay its self back within 5 years.


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## GoldenVIKE

Jason245 said:


> Based on my brief review, it looks like somewhere between 1-2 weeks in a 2BR depending on season.  Assuming 2% interest on the $30k.
> 
> So if we assume on the high end, we get 2 full weeks in a 2BR, the rental rate for the same is $2500/week ($5k/year) @2% interest we are talking about 12 years for cashflow breakeven.  At 4400 rental it is 17-18 years before cashflow breakeven.  If you can rent them for 4k or less it is over 22 years.
> 
> In all honesty, if it was me and I was dead set on making the purchase from MVC, based on these point charts, I would probably want a minimum of 6k+ points for those MF dollars, I would tell them to keep all their bonuses and other Crap (which will be gone in a relatively short period of time) and instead insist that they give me more perpetual points at lower cost per point MF dollar (if at all possible).  Bonus points are gone once used, but perpetual points that can guarantee 3 weeks in a 2BR  at low MF $$ is a perpetual benefit that will pay its self back within 5 years.



It sounds like we're approaching the logic similarly, but I'm not following where you're getting most of your numbers.  Let's see if I can follow:

4,000 pts package
Purchase price would be 4,000 x $6.26 = $25,000
Assumed $1.10 booking value of a point = $4,400/yr
Annual fees all-in: $2,000 @ $0.50/pt (maintenance fee plus membership dues averaged across all points)
Annual "return": $2,400 ($4,400-$2,000)
Breakeven: 10.4ish years assuming $0 residual value of ownership (consistent with my post #284)
Breakeven: 5 years assuming $3/pt residual value of ownership (consistent with my post #284)

Not sure what you're doing with the 2% but it may not be appropriate since the future returns are all in today's dollars.  In the future, the annual fees go up but so do the cost of lodging in general, so the booking value of a point does as well.  If you're arguing that MFs will increase at a higher rate than the cost of lodging you're welcome to do that, but that'd be a whole other topic.

I'm not sure where you're coming up with the number of years for your breakeven calculations


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## Jason245

GoldenVIKE said:


> It sounds like we're approaching the logic similarly, but I'm not following where you're getting most of your numbers.  Let's see if I can follow:
> 
> 4,000 pts package
> valued at $1.10 booking value of a point = $4,400/yr
> Purchase price would be 4,000 x $6.26 = $25,000
> Annual fees all-in: $2,000 @ $0.50/pt (maintenance fee plus membership dues averaged across all points)
> Annual "return": $2,400 ($4,400-$2,000)
> Breakeven: 10.4ish years assuming $0 residual value of ownership (consistent with my post #284)
> Breakeven: 5 years assuming $3/pt residual value of ownership (consistent with my post #284)
> 
> Not sure what you're doing with the 2% but it may not be appropriate since the future returns are all in today's dollars.  In the future, the annual fees go up but so do the cost of lodging in general, so the booking value of a point does as well.  If you're arguing that MFs will increase at a higher rate than the cost of lodging you're welcome to do that, but that'd be a whole other topic.
> 
> I'm not sure where you're coming up with the number of years for your breakeven calculations


2 percent on 30k (basic cash return on a cd).

Annual math 

Remaining amount of 30k investment -(5k rental -2360mf -interest on remaining amount) = new remaining amount. 
Play with rental rate in excel. . Once remain amount falls below zero you have break even. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## BocaBoy

Jason245 said:


> Show me one post I have ever made where I accused someone of throwing away money on a timeshare. My objective has always been education and making sure that any retail purchaser has all the information to make an educated and informed decision.
> 
> I have not advocated a single insurance policy, I just pointed out that it at least exists AFTER you so boldly challenged me to "add new perspectives".  I did that and at lease one person found it interesting, and new and a tid bit they found important.
> 
> Everyone has their own circumstances and situations.  I have a finance background, I have read countless threads of people who have bought from developers only to regret it later, On the TUG marketplace there are literally hundreds if not thousands of quality rentals. OP is nervious about renting or doing business with private individuals, I present a way to alleviate their concern and you attack me by saying saying it is too expensive.
> 
> As best I can tell, OP is planning on using their points for themselves and not playing the book 3 reservations and keep 1 game.  By my guess it will be for 1 or 2 reservations a year.
> 
> Even at 2% return that $30k provides $600 to cover the cost of insurance and some extra money for MF vs Rental cost difference, and any year you don't go on vacation (or maybe go somewhere where there is no MVC or where you would have to spend extra money on an exchange out of MVC to somewhere else) you have $600 in your pocket.   No Club dues, no changing terms and conditions, no perpetual commitments or worry about liquidation before "pay back".
> 
> I admit I don't know enough about MVC to know the true difference between rental rates and MF on the points level, but you better believe I would want to know this information if it was part of my analysis.
> 
> What solutions do you offer? Or are you activly advocating purchase from a developer as being the advise TUG should give? What do you have to add to the conversation other then to state that I am adding nothing and my every suggestion is terrible and that I am walking around telling others they are wrong?
> 
> What substance have I not addressed?  To that end, What substance have you addressed?


Just read this whole thread.  I do not think you have.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

Jason245 said:


> 2 percent on 30k (basic cash return on a cd).
> 
> Annual math
> 
> Remaining amount of 30k investment -(5k rental -2360mf -interest on remaining amount) = new remaining amount.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



I'm lost.  Where did you get $30k?  And what is the $5k rental?  What's the 2,360 mf?

Regarding interest, I don't think you should factor the returns associated with one investment option when calculating the returns of another.  The risk/return/liquidity tradeoff with investments is a given.  Otherwise why use a 2% CD?  Why not a 3% treasury or 5% investment grade corporate bond?


----------



## Jason245

GoldenVIKE said:


> I'm lost.  Where did you get $30k?  And what is the $5k rental?  What's the 2,360 mf?
> 
> Regarding interest, I don't think you should factor the returns associated with one investment option when calculating the returns of another.  The risk/return/liquidity tradeoff with investments is a given.  Otherwise why use a 2% CD?  Why not a 3% treasury or 5% investment grade corporate bond?


I am being conservative or return on 30k.. change it to 5 percent for different scenarios. ..  Mf comes from OP original post.  5k is a number I threw out there as a starting point based on the rates people are throwing out as value for point.   Change 5k for 4400 or 4000 for different scenarios. 

I am all about simple back of napkin math to figure things out and like to see real dollars.  Not return percentages. 

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## Saintsfanfl

Unlike comparing different investment vehicles, there really isn't an equivalent comparison to the deal the OP received. The only exception is could they have gotten the price lower or could they have gotten a better week to bundle. Marriott.com is sometimes cheaper than maintenance fees and definitely when factoring up front costs but not at prime locations during prime time.

The argument is getting to the point of "never ever vacation at x because y is cheaper". Vacations are a want and not a need so there are so many variables at play that each situation is unique and no one analysis can be done to make the decision the same for two people.

Is a billionaire stupid for building a beach house that they visit only a few weeks a year? Some will say yes, and some will say no, but the billionaire won't care.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

Yeah i think this has been covered from just about every angle at this point!


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## Saintsfanfl

You seriously got a complete TUG crash course in your first post!


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## GoldenVIKE

Saintsfanfl said:


> You seriously got a complete TUG crash course in your first post!


Now I'm just going for trophy points!


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## Quilter

JIMinNC said:


> But in Greg T's example where he books multiple reservations on different dates because of work uncertainty, and then cancels the ones he can't use when he pins down the date he can travel, how would that work with your Chairman's Level rental approach? My take is he would have to pay the Chairman Owner for all the reservations right? Then what happens when he cancels? Do you give him his money back? Even if you tried to work with him and refunded the unwanted reservations the first time it happened, how would you react when Greg called you back next year wanting to do the same thing?
> 
> Granted, I could see where Greg's situation is not typical, but even us, with our limited ownership, have canceled four reservations in the three years we've owned Marriott Points. None were because of issues that "prevented" us from traveling that would tend to be covered by an insurance policy; there were just factors that caused US to change our minds. Most recently, we canceled a planned four-day late June trip to HHI because we had second thoughts about going again in the heat of the summer. I doubt that "fear of uncontrolled sweating" would fit the insurer's definition of "prevented". I suspect we would have been out of luck if our canceled reservations were the type of rentals you are speaking of. Despite the cancellations, at no time have we lost the utilization/value of our points, with the exception of 75 excess points that are leftover in the holding account and 25 Legacy points that couldn't be used for a booking that was mainly booked with Trust points. We may still find a way to use those 100 points before they expire in December 2017, but if we can't, so what? It's $53.
> 
> *Update:* _By total coincidence I just stumbled on a use for those 100 orphan points mentioned just above. See post #334. So now, ALL points from the reservations we had to cancel have been successfully used for other bookings. No shrinkage at all._



Jim, I too make and cancel reservations on a regular basis.   Especially Dec. - June when I'm settling our own plans.   It's a very busy time.   I'm in agreement with you that the DC allows me the flexibility to decide and change my mind. 

Not meaning any offense at all, I don't come to TUG looking for conflict, but I have friends who gladly take advantage of the MVC DC through my Chairman level.   They either aren't in a position to invest in the smallest point package or they have no desire.   Trust me, I know how much work I do to get their reservation and I know they didn't have to do much more than work out some details.  Simplicity for them.  

They aren't the type who make and break reservations over and over.   That's for me and you.   They're more the type who decide on a destination and like a very nice room to occupy.


----------



## JIMinNC

Quilter said:


> I have friends who gladly take advantage of the MVC DC through my Chairman level. They either aren't in a position to invest in the smallest point package or they have no desire. Trust me, I know how much work I do to get their reservation and I know they didn't have to do much more than work out some details. Simplicity for them.
> 
> They aren't the type who make and break reservations over and over. That's for me and you. They're more the type who decide on a destination and like a very nice room to occupy.



That's certainly a win-win - for your friends and for you.


----------



## Quilter

GregT said:


> Fasttr, thank you for explaining Parking Points.
> 
> DavidVel, you are correct that my points do not go unused or are allowed to expire.
> 
> Quilter, you are right that having a trusted Chairmans Club person who is willing to make reservations for you allows you to leverage their status with no personal investment. I've made reservations using my CC for several TUGgers for exactly that reason - but they were all people I knew.  I don't think that works for the person who is hoping to avoid the timeshare ownership conundrum.
> 
> Jason, has insuring your vacations been your standard approach and how much was the premium? Have you needed to submit claims and how easy was it to get paid?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Greg




Greg I brought this up in this thread because Golden began by saying (and I paraphrase) he didn't have time to fuss with the complications of renting or trading with a resale week.   I hope I understood that correctly.

As Jim so clearly points out with his own pattern of reservations and Fasttr's explanation of "parking points" it should be apparent to Golden that working the MVC DC will take a considerable amount of time.

I've made reservations for friends.  Just tonight I worked with a couple sisters who have been to one of the MVC properties and want to return for a family gathering.


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## Quilter

Guess who has an appointment tomorrow morning for a sales presentation?  One guess.

Along with making and cancelling reservations I've been transferring points from Amex to spg to MR for a travel package with Southwest miles.   All to get the Southwest companion pass.   I consider this time all part of the MVC ownership.   

While this is going on we talked to our DD who would like to take her husband on a trip to Scotland or France.   Now I'd like more points just in case she wants me to reserve 3 nights at the Trump Tumberry hotel.  http://www.trumpturnberry.com

Sure I could buy points at MR or spg rack rates but why do that when I can get 25K for 90 minutes (give or take)?

I'm too cheap for rack rates.   Same with the flights.   I'm trying to work the miles to get them there.   Miles I've gotten through travel packages or UR points.

I consider all the time invested in this as part of the MVC ownership.   If they do go, and they do have a lovely time. . .well worth the investment.


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## Fasttr

Just a word of caution for those this may apply to.... I would tame down the continual touting of your using the DC as a business venture, as the Exchange docs quoted below prohibit it.  Just sayin.....

MVC does have the ability to cancel reservations based on the info below, so there is risk, both to you and the renter.



> Accommodations, Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, Special Benefits, and Use Periods may not be used for any commercial purpose. This prohibition on commercial use includes, but is not limited to, any illegal activity or a pattern of occupancy, rental, leasing, or use by a Program Member that Exchange Company, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. In the event a Program Member is determined to be reserving or using the Accommodations, Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, Special Benefits or Use Periods for any commercial purpose Exchange Company may immediately cancel any current reservation(s) made by such Program Member and may impose such additional penalties or restrictions as determined by Exchange Company, in its sole discretion, from time to time.


----------



## davidvel

Fasttr said:


> I would tame down the continual touting of your using the DC as a business venture, as the Exchange docs quoted below prohibit it.  Just sayin.....


Well that's true, but the underlying governing docs also prohibit the use of weeks as a business venture, but MVCI seems do be doing just fine at that with its DC Trust and program.


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## Marathoner

This thread has been very interesting.  I own a legacy enrolled Marriott week which I bought the developer.  I have received good value from my week and like the Marriott system but I would never buy into DC trust points.  However, the aggregate dollar value of my other timeshare purchases would have been enough to qualify for the Chairman level if I had only purchased Marriott.  So, it isn't just about the money.  Bottom line is that similar to what others have stated, we all have different priorities and different family demands.  As a result, Marriott DC points is right for some and not right for others.  The important thing is to know what your family requires and what financial amounts you feel comfortable spending.  If you know this, then you can determine what type of vacationing experience is right for you - whether renting, weeks, points, Marriott or non-Marriott.


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## JIMinNC

davidvel said:


> Well that's true, but the underlying governing docs also prohibit the use of weeks as a business venture, but MVCI seems do be doing just fine at that with its DC Trust and program.



But, I believe the docs give MVC, as program manager, the right to rent and otherwise use intervals not occupied by owners, and to do that for profit (while still preventing owners from doing the same). So since MVC is the manager of the DC Trust and related entities, why would there be an issue with the Trust violating the no commercial activity prohibition?


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## bazzap

There is no MVC definition of business venture, as far as I know though.
Many owners rent on a regular basis and sometimes multiple weeks.
This was actually sold by MVC originally as a benefit for multiple weeks owners to perhaps rent out some of their weeks to help pay the Maintenance fees.
I believe MVC 's interpretation might relate specifically to those owners who have bought many weeks, never stay themselves and always rent out.


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## SueDonJ

A "commercial activity" prohibition has always been in the Marriott governing docs but I've never known them to enforce it.  Regardless, the possibility that they can is something that should be considered by anyone who's looking to offset ownership costs by renting out owned Weeks or Points.

Several years ago Disney enacted a policy that restricts the annual number of owners' reservations to which a guest name can be added.  Recently Vistana (Starwood) implemented fees for adding guest names to certain reservations.  Other timeshare companies also have similar restrictions/fee structures, and of course the exchange companies all prohibit rentals of exchange reservations.  I think eventually we'll see something from MVW that will negatively impact rental activity, not because they don't want owners doing it but because it will add to their bottom line.


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## Saintsfanfl

It's just a preemptive countermeasure to prevent someone from doing something undesirable in the future.


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## Quilter

Not to change the topic . . .

Went to our sales presentation and have to say we enjoyed our time.  Salesman was pleasantly personable.  Went through different aspects of ownership including MR points, minimum DC points and hybrid packages with favorable MF's.  Informative with a 25k bonus.


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## BocaBoy

SueDonJ said:


> A "commercial activity" prohibition has always been in the Marriott governing docs but I've never known them to enforce it.  Regardless, the possibility that they can is something that should be considered by anyone who's looking to offset ownership costs by renting out owned Weeks or Points.


For weeks owners, this can only be interpreted to prohibit the "business" of owning many weeks, never staying in them or depositing them for trade, etc.  It cannot be interpreted to prohibit the normal "rental" activities described by all but a couple of people on TUG.  Marriott even has a rental program to help you rent your weeks and it was always listed in the MVCI materials as one of four or five options for how to use your week (stay, trade, rent, or exchange for MR points, and now exchange for DC points if enrolled).

I am not sure how the language reads with respect to DC points, because that was never of particular interest to me.


----------



## BocaBoy

Quilter said:


> Not meaning any offense at all, I don't come to TUG looking for conflict, but I have friends who gladly take advantage of the MVC DC through my Chairman level.   They either aren't in a position to invest in the smallest point package or they have no desire.   Trust me, I know how much work I do to get their reservation and I know they didn't have to do much more than work out some details.  Simplicity for them.


I don't think any of us who have questioned the value of relying on being able to rent reservations would question its desirability if it is from someone you know pretty well.  I would not hesitate to rent a week from such a person, or even a "TUG friend", but that really does not work for most people who own timeshares because they do not typically have such contacts..


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## echino

I read about 7 pages of this thread and gave up. Here is my thought on this:

What a waste of money!

What you bought is a liability. You are now stuck.

Those who value true flexibility just book vacations where and when they want. Rent from owners. Or just book a hotel directly, or use a travel agent if averse to renting from owners. Instead, you are now tied to a system and extremely limited in your options and timing, while paying some crazy money.

Sorry for harsh words. There is no merit to your purchase whatsoever - financial or any other.


----------



## BocaBoy

Quilter said:


> Along with making and cancelling reservations I've been transferring points from Amex to spg to MR for a travel package with Southwest miles.   All to get the Southwest companion pass.   I consider this time all part of the MVC ownership.
> 
> While this is going on we talked to our DD who would like to take her husband on a trip to Scotland or France.   Now I'd like more points just in case she wants me to reserve 3 nights at the Trump Tumberry hotel.  http://www.trumpturnberry.com
> 
> Sure I could buy points at MR or spg rack rates but why do that when I can get 25K for 90 minutes (give or take)?
> 
> I'm too cheap for rack rates.   Same with the flights.   I'm trying to work the miles to get them there.   Miles I've gotten through travel packages or UR points.
> 
> I consider all the time invested in this as part of the MVC ownership.   If they do go, and they do have a lovely time. . .well worth the investment.


The effect is the same and I also spend a lot of time working the MR system, but it is interesting that I never have considered it to be part of my MVCI ownership.  I consider the effort to be part of maximizing the value of my hotel loyalty program, which frankly has produced even more value and memories over the years than my timeshare ownership (which has also produced a lot).  It is why I first bought at Sabal Palms, although exchanging for MR points is no longer a good option with some exceptions.


----------



## Hi I'm new here

echino said:


> I read about 7 pages of this thread and gave up. Here is my thought on this:
> 
> What a waste of money!
> 
> What you bought is a liability. You are now stuck.
> 
> Those who value true flexibility just book vacations where and when they want. Rent from owners. Or just book a hotel directly, or use a travel agent if averse to renting from owners. Instead, you are now tied to a system and extremely limited in your options and timing, while paying some crazy money.
> 
> Sorry for harsh words. There is no merit to your purchase whatsoever - financial or any other.



+1 
Buying a TS is buying an ever increasing liability called maintenance fees.  We are former owners of a platinum HHI week and we saw and heard a freight train coming called maintenance fees.. We sold to get out of the path and it hasn't slowed down yet. 
I'm also really thankful we got out before this point based destination club came along.  Seems like an ever bigger boondoggle.  The 4000 point package described here had an upfront cost of $40,000 but the points would be insufficient to get desirable weeks at peak times.  It wouldn't be enough points to get our old week at our former resort at our peak timeframe.  
Then to pay a $2200 yearly maintenance every single year.  
Then to deal with constantly changing rules and policies.
 I cannot fathom. 

My advice to newbies considering this purchase is to go directly to a financial advisor. Also run it by your parents, coworkers and friends and let them tell you what they think. Be prepared for what you will hear.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

echino said:


> I read about 7 pages of this thread and gave up. Here is my thought on this:
> 
> What a waste of money!
> 
> What you bought is a liability. You are now stuck.
> 
> Those who value true flexibility just book vacations where and when they want. Rent from owners. Or just book a hotel directly, or use a travel agent if averse to renting from owners. Instead, you are now tied to a system and extremely limited in your options and timing, while paying some crazy money.
> 
> Sorry for harsh words. There is no merit to your purchase whatsoever - financial or any other.



Some of the concepts in this thread can be difficult to grasp. The only way you can come to your blanket conclusion is to either ignore many of the issues discussed or not understand them.

It's called the Timeshare User Group. It is not called "Timeshares have no value whatsoever and ownership should never be considered". You didn't even suggest resale as an option so this really isn't the right place for the "never timeshare" argument.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

Hi I'm new here said:


> +1
> Buying a TS is buying an ever increasing liability called maintenance fees.  We are former owners of a platinum HHI week and we saw and heard a freight train coming called maintenance fees.. We sold to get out of the path and it hasn't slowed down yet.
> I'm also really thankful we got out before this point based destination club came along.  Seems like an ever bigger boondoggle.  The 4000 point package described here had an upfront cost of $40,000 but the points would be insufficient to get desirable weeks at peak times.  It wouldn't be enough points to get our old week at our former resort at our peak timeframe.
> Then to pay a $2200 yearly maintenance every single year.
> Then to deal with constantly changing rules and policies.
> I cannot fathom.
> 
> My advice to newbies considering this purchase is to go directly to a financial advisor. Also run it by your parents, coworkers and friends and let them tell you what they think. Be prepared for what you will hear.



1) while much of this thread was about debating and refining the financial aspects of TS, i think that everyone on here is on the same page that nobody should buy a TS purely for financial reasons.  It's a luxury purchase like a nice car or boat or vacation home.  None of those are good financial investments, and if you can't afford a boat or lake home or German car, then I'd agree that you shouldn't buy a TS.
2) the original deal you reference was rescinded and replaced with a different package with significantly better financials on both an upfront basis and on a continual MF basis.


----------



## Jason245

GoldenVIKE said:


> 1) while much of this thread was about debating and refining the financial aspects of TS, i think that everyone on here is on the same page that nobody should buy a TS purely for financial reasons.  It's a luxury purchase like a nice car or boat or vacation home.  None of those are good financial investments, and if you can't afford a boat or lake home or German car, then I'd agree that you shouldn't buy a TS.
> 2) the original deal you reference was rescinded and replaced with a different package with significantly better financials on both an upfront basis and on a continual MF basis.


So what was the final deal? I missed that post. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## MOXJO7282

Hi I'm new here said:


> +1
> Buying a TS is buying an ever increasing liability called maintenance fees.  We are former owners of a platinum HHI week and we saw and heard a freight train coming called maintenance fees.. We sold to get out of the path and it hasn't slowed down yet.
> I'm also really thankful we got out before this point based destination club came along.  Seems like an ever bigger boondoggle.  The 4000 point package described here had an upfront cost of $40,000 but the points would be insufficient to get desirable weeks at peak times.  It wouldn't be enough points to get our old week at our former resort at our peak timeframe.
> Then to pay a $2200 yearly maintenance every single year.
> Then to deal with constantly changing rules and policies.
> I cannot fathom.
> 
> My advice to newbies considering this purchase is to go directly to a financial advisor. Also run it by your parents, coworkers and friends and let them tell you what they think. Be prepared for what you will hear.


Not trying to pile on but do agree that you're too one sided. I don't want to offend anyone who still buys direct but I do agree with you that it was an ill-advised purchase and also believe any direct purchase is the same but to say every TS purchase is a rip-off is not accurate.

You mention HHI platinum.  If you buy the right Marriott HHi platinum units, and actually even some gold season HHI units at a good resale price you will always be able to get most or all of your money back and the MF fees of less than $1400 for a 2BD on the ocean is still very reasonable.  I mention HHI because that is one location I'm knowledgeable on but there are many other resale units that  this would also be true for.


----------



## Quilter

BocaBoy said:


> The effect is the same and I also spend a lot of time working the MR system, but it is interesting that I never have considered it to be part of my MVCI ownership.  I consider the effort to be part of maximizing the value of my hotel loyalty program, which frankly has produced even more value and memories over the years than my timeshare ownership (which has also produced a lot).  It is why I first bought at Sabal Palms, although exchanging for MR points is no longer a good option with some exceptions.



Paying our MF's with the Marriott Visa generates lots of MR points that we would not have without ownership.   It's a byproduct and has become the driving force behind becoming a points and miles junkie.


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## echino

Yes, I saw what the final deal was. It makes no financial sense. What's more, it also makes no sense from non-financial standpoint. There is nothing luxury about this purchase, except for the price paid. You take on a liability and lose any flexibility or freedom to plan your vacations. You are now tied to the system and are forced to play by its arcane rules.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

Jason245 said:


> So what was the final deal? I missed that post.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


Original deal: 4,000pts for $39,875* plus $0.58/pt annual fees (MF+MD)
Added to deal: 3,825pts for $10,700* plus $0.40/pt annual fee (MF) -> this is an enrolled silver week at Ocean Pointe that can be converted to DC
New total hybrid deal: 7,825pts for $50,575* plus $0.50/pt annual fee (MF+MD)

*doesn't include value of free trips, tax benefits, financing costs, or closing costs, which are net favorable to the tune of about $2,000 if valuing the "free trip" points at $0.70.


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## GoldenVIKE

echino said:


> Yes, I saw what the final deal was. It makes no financial sense. What's more, it also makes no sense from non-financial standpoint. There is nothing luxury about this purchase, except for the price paid. You take on a liability and lose any flexibility or freedom to plan your vacations. You are now tied to the system and are forced to play by its arcane rules.



so you're in favor of it then?  please clarify


----------



## GoldenVIKE

Quilter said:


> Paying our MF's with the Marriott Visa generates lots of MR points that we would not have without ownership.   It's a byproduct and has become the driving force behind becoming a points and miles junkie.



You know what this is a great point and not included in any of my previous calculations.  Putting about $3,900 MF on Marriott card w/ 5x points = 19,500 MR points per year which is worth roughly $195.  Nice perk.  I think I'm going to liquidate all of my 401ks and IRAs and buy up more points.  Echino, thoughts?


----------



## Jason245

GoldenVIKE said:


> Original deal: 4,000pts for $39,875* plus $0.58/pt annual fees (MF+MD)
> Added to deal: 3,825pts for $10,700* plus $0.40/pt annual fee (MF) -> this is an enrolled silver week at Ocean Pointe that can be converted to DC
> New total hybrid deal: 7,825pts for $50,575* plus $0.50/pt annual fee (MF+MD)
> 
> *doesn't include value of free trips, tax benefits, financing costs, or closing costs, which are net favorable to the tune of about $2,000 if valuing the "free trip" points at $0.70.


   

All I can say is.. wow.. just wow.. I am speachless, but this is the first time tug brian is going to have to record negative savings for finding tug. 
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## echino

Guy and girls, I know it's a timeshare forum, but take a step back just for a moment, and look at the bigger picture, not from a timesharing standpoint, but as a normal regular person. Imagine you don't own a timeshare. Now that you are not tied by your timeshare anymore, you have a freedom of choice how to make your vacation the best for you and your family. You can rent a timeshare from an owner. Any timeshare, not just in any single system like Marriott. You can rent a house on airbnb. You can buy an all inclusive package from an online travel agency, there are crazy good deals sometimes. Or you can book a luxury hotel. Or you can skip traveling if you cannot go, and still not pay those maintenance fees. Or you could play the credit cards miles and points system if you wish - or not. It's freedom!


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## echino

GoldenVIKE said:


> You know what this is a great point and not included in any of my previous calculations.  Putting about $3,900 MF on Marriott card w/ 5x points = 19,500 MR points per year which is worth roughly $195.  Nice perk.  I think I'm going to liquidate all of my 401ks and IRAs and buy up more points.  Echino, thoughts?



I have a better idea. Get the 35k SPG Amex, convert them to Marriott. Then you have 105,000 Marriott Rewards points. For free.


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## BocaBoy

echino said:


> I have a better idea. Get the 35k SPG Amex, convert them to Marriott. Then you have 105,000 Marriott Rewards points. For free.


You can do both.


----------



## BocaBoy

Quilter said:


> Paying our MF's with the Marriott Visa generates lots of MR points that we would not have without ownership.   It's a byproduct and has become the driving force behind becoming a points and miles junkie.


I agree completely in terms of how it impacts behavior.  My point is that I personally bought MVCI (Sabal Palms) in 1987 as an adjunct to the MR program in order to generate MR points.  Back then exchanging for MR points made a developer timeshare purchase a great FINANCIAL move.  Those days are gone but intellectually I still look at all the MR points aspects of MVCI as part of how I look at MR, not so much as how I look at MVCI.  The behavior is identical, it is just the lens through which they are viewed.  And to be honest, if I could have only one---MVCI or MR--I would choose MR.  But I really like them both.


----------



## BocaBoy

echino said:


> Guy and girls, I know it's a timeshare forum, but take a step back just for a moment, and look at the bigger picture, not from a timesharing standpoint, but as a normal regular person. Imagine you don't own a timeshare. Now that you are not tied by your timeshare anymore, you have a freedom of choice how to make your vacation the best for you and your family. You can rent a timeshare from an owner. Any timeshare, not just in any single system like Marriott. You can rent a house on airbnb. You can buy an all inclusive package from an online travel agency, there are crazy good deals sometimes. Or you can book a luxury hotel. Or you can skip traveling if you cannot go, and still not pay those maintenance fees. Or you could play the credit cards miles and points system if you wish - or not. It's freedom!


Many of us do all those things AND also own and use timeshares.  Why do you seem to view it as all-or-nothing?


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## echino

This is a view from a 2br OF at WKORVN (Maui). New Year 2015 week. Traveled with the whole family. My wife, parents and three kids. Paid $2,500 by renting direct from an owner who could not go. Who lost, and who gained from this transaction?


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## BocaBoy

echino said:


> ....it also makes no sense from non-financial standpoint. There is nothing luxury about this purchase, except for the price paid. You take on a liability and lose any flexibility or freedom to plan your vacations. You are now tied to the system and are forced to play by its arcane rules.


I beg to differ.  First, most people would definitely consider MVCI timeshares to be luxury accommodations.  And second, in many ways our timeshare ownership has in fact INCREASED our flexibility and freedom to plan vacations.


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## echino

This is our cabin flying from Vancouver to Munich. Just my wife and me, nobody else there. This is luxury travel. Cost me less than ~$500. My point is if you play some system, might as well play it right, to maximize benefit and minimize cost. When you purchase a timeshare from a developer, you are not maximizing benefit, certainly not minimizing cost, and not playing the system. It's the system playing YOU.


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## GoldenVIKE

echino said:


> This is our cabin flying from Vancouver to Munich. Just my wife and me, nobody else there. This is luxury travel. Cost me less than ~$500. My point is if you play some system, might as well play it right, to maximize benefit and minimize cost. When you purchase a timeshare from a developer, you are not maximizing benefit, certainly not minimizing cost, and not playing the system. It's the system playing YOU.
> View attachment 3333



You win?


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## echino

BocaBoy said:


> I beg to differ.  First, most people would definitely consider MVCI timeshares to be luxury accommodations.  And second, in many ways our timeshare ownership has in fact INCREASED our flexibility and freedom to plan vacations.



Marriott is not in the same league as true luxury accommodations, like Aman, MO, or even FS. I would say Marriott is about 4* on average. They may call themselves luxury, sure, but they are not. It's about the same when they call their timeshare units "villas".

Regarding increased flexibility when you own a timeshare. In real life most people have limited vacation time. If you own a timeshare, you will plan your vacation around your timeshare ownership. You are paying maintenance fees for it. So in practice owning a timeshare eliminates any vacations not involving your timeshare. You get tied to it, and lose out on a huge world that is outside of the system.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

echino said:


> Guy and girls, I know it's a timeshare forum, but take a step back just for a moment, and look at the bigger picture, not from a timesharing standpoint, but as a normal regular person. Imagine you don't own a timeshare. Now that you are not tied by your timeshare anymore, you have a freedom of choice how to make your vacation the best for you and your family. You can rent a timeshare from an owner. Any timeshare, not just in any single system like Marriott. You can rent a house on airbnb. You can buy an all inclusive package from an online travel agency, there are crazy good deals sometimes. Or you can book a luxury hotel. Or you can skip traveling if you cannot go, and still not pay those maintenance fees. Or you could play the credit cards miles and points system if you wish - or not. It's freedom!



Apparently you didn't quite get to all the posts about the OP never wanting to rent from an individual. Talk about inflexible. You call prepaying a fixed vacation with no ability to cancel freedom? Would that work with GregT's strategy of booking x3 and cancelling two? I do the same with exchanges.

I paid around $25k in maintenance fees for 2017. Am I crazy?

I am with you on the luxury travel but I guess I don't know how to do that at bargain prices. Is this peak season?


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## GoldenVIKE

echino said:


> Marriott is not in the same league as true luxury accommodations, like Aman, MO, or even FS. I would say Marriott is about 4* on average. They may call themselves luxury, sure, but they are not. It's about the same when they call their timeshare units "villas".
> 
> Regarding increased flexibility when you own a timeshare. In real life most people have limited vacation time. If you own a timeshare, you will plan your vacation around your timeshare ownership. You are paying maintenance fees for it. So in practice owning a timeshare eliminates any vacations not involving your timeshare. You get tied to it, and lose out on a huge world that is outside of the system.



I think the point is that vacations are a luxury good, not that Marriott is the most luxurious outfit in the world.  Although to your point, Ritz-Carlton Clubs don't meet your definition of luxury?


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## echino

Saintsfanfl said:


> You call prepaying a fixed vacation with no ability to cancel freedom?



You call paying maintenance fees no matter what freedom? If you cancel your timeshare booking, nobody is refunding your maintenance fees.


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## Hi I'm new here

echino said:


> This is a view from a 2br OF at WKORVN (Maui). New Year 2015 week. Traveled with the whole family. My wife, parents and three kids. Paid $2,500 by renting direct from an owner who could not go. Who lost, and who gained from this transaction?
> View attachment 3332



Echino, can you break down the location?  Is this Westin Kaanapali?  I once walked that resort to see where a friend stayed, owner rental.  We stayed once at the Westin hotel and once at Sheraton Kaanapali, both with Pleasant Hawaiian Holiday packages.  This travel company has unbeatable pricing, sometimes lodging and a car for not much more than airfare. 
We've had great owner rentals in Hawaii on several islands, Marriott and non Marriott.  Especially wonderful options on Kauai.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

echino said:


> You call paying maintenance fees no matter what freedom? If you cancel your timeshare booking, nobody is refunding your maintenance fees.



I can't compete with your private jet and beds for less than $500 but paying maintenance fees is in no way the same as prepaying an owner for a rental. As an owner you can cancel and change your reservation. You can deposit with interval and exchange elsewhere. You can rent out to someone else not afraid of an owner rental for a hefty profit. There is plenty of flexibility. An owner rentel potentially has zero flexibility.

I hate knocking owner rentals but I do it in the spirit of the OP's interest. It clearly isn't for him and even though I rent out units on occasion I don't love doing it myself so I can relate.


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## echino

About "villas". This is our villa - real one, not the "villa" in timeshare speak. With private pool etc. It's on Lombok in October 2016. Traveled there in JAL first class with my wife by using AA miles acquired for ~$0.01 each. Relaxed at the villa after climbing Rinjani. Fabulous beach and food. Paid about ~$100 per night. You cannot get it with a timeshare. If I owned a timeshare, I would never get to experience it.


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## Saintsfanfl

Tell us your secrets. Can everyone do this? It sounds awesome.


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## JIMinNC

echino said:


> Regarding increased flexibility when you own a timeshare. In real life most people have limited vacation time. If you own a timeshare, you will plan your vacation around your timeshare ownership. You are paying maintenance fees for it. So in practice owning a timeshare eliminates any vacations not involving your timeshare. You get tied to it, and lose out on a huge world that is outside of the system.



This is simply not true, unless you happen to own too many timeshare weeks or points. Just because you own something in a timeshare system doesn't prevent you from taking cruises, other trips involving hotel stays, or whatever. If you get four weeks of vacation per year and only have enough timeshare ownership for one or two weeks, you still have two other weeks you can use for other kinds of travel, staycations, etc.



echino said:


> You call paying maintenance fees no matter what freedom? If you cancel your timeshare booking, nobody is refunding your maintenance fees.



I've canceled four timeshare bookings in the last three years. I've not lost anything. The points were redeposited in my account and I used 100% of them to book other trips. Some of the points were canceled and redeposited more than once.



echino said:


> About "villas". This is our villa - real one, not the "villa" in timeshare speak. With private pool etc. It's on Lombok in October 2016. Traveled there in JAL first class with my wife by using AA miles acquired for ~$0.01 each. Relaxed at the villa after climbing Rinjani. Fabulous beach and food. Paid about ~$100 per night. You cannot get it with a timeshare. If I owned a timeshare, I would never get to experience it.



Again, why would I never get to experience this if I owned a timeshare? I have the option to book it with cash just as you did. I bet almost everyone on TUG takes timeshare vacations and non-timeshare vacations.


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## Jason245

echino said:


> About "villas". This is our villa - real one, not the "villa" in timeshare speak. With private pool etc. It's on Lombok in October 2016. Traveled there in JAL first class with my wife by using AA miles acquired for ~$0.01 each. Relaxed at the villa after climbing Rinjani. Fabulous beach and food. Paid about ~$100 per night. You cannot get it with a timeshare. If I owned a timeshare, I would never get to experience it.
> 
> View attachment 3334


A penny a point.  Ouch.  I try not to pay more than half a penny a point..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## Saintsfanfl

JIMinNC said:


> This is simply not true, unless you happen to own too many timeshare weeks or points. Just because you own something in a timeshare system doesn't prevent you from taking cruises, other trips involving hotel stays, or whatever. If you get four weeks of vacation per year and only have enough timeshare ownership for one or two weeks, you still have two other weeks you can use for other kinds of travel, staycations, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> I've canceled four timeshare bookings in the last three years. I've not lost anything. The points were redeposited in my account and I used 100% of them to book other trips. Some of the points were canceled and redeposited more than once.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, why would I never get to experience this if I owned a timeshare? I have the option to book it with cash just as you did. I bet almost everyone on TUG takes timeshare vacations and non-timeshare vacations.



If you can book two tickets on that flight for less than $500 I commend you.


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## Marathoner

Saintsfanfl said:


> If you can book two tickets on that flight for less than $500 I commend you.



That is the amount that he paid in taxes for two business/first class tickets that he used miles to book.

I do think that echino has a point in that many probably have narrowed their vacation destination constrained by their timeshare ownership.  On the other hand, if you enjoy your destination, it doesn't really matter whether it is booked on Airbnb in Kyoto or through DC points at Lakeshore Reserve in Orlando.


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## jme

Ditto, ditto, ditto BocaBoy, in your response to echino 3 posts above.

...... and per those hotel stays mentioned by echino, Rewards Points gained simply by credit card use for purchases, bonuses, etc., allow my family to stay for highly reduced prices or outright FREE stays quite often, plus airfare if needed.

As for vacations at the timeshare resorts of our choice, for example, if we own two weeks, we could rent one out and use that for paying both maintenance fees (plus some left over) leaving a free week at our world-class resort. FREE. Since we own high season at a great resort, we long ago met our break-even point, and now (even if we don't rent another one out) we enjoy weeks for merely the maintenance fee (which is both a reality and a necessity), and which also happens to be less than half of what we would have to pay to stay there if renting from someone else, or instead renting at a comparable hotel or resort (I surely don't like paying THAT fee).

So contrary to echino's conclusion, THAT rack rate he prefers is the fee that "sounds like the freight train", with all due respect. Maintenance fees indeed keep rising, some feel too much too fast as I do, but the fact remains that it's still far less than what we would choose to pay anyway, because WE ARE going on a nice vacation regardless. I consider myself to have a lot of freedom in our choices, rather than being locked-in as echino says, because I have many ways to change, adjust, or tweak when and where we go. And frankly, it allows that at a lower price. There are no "bargain" prices for the places we go, apart from ownership, and I don't wish to LOCK MYSELF IN to a discount hotel or resort just to save money. We want quality. And it is an undeniable fact that we pay less for that kind of experience today than if we followed his advice "outside our chosen system".

Timeshare is merely a pre-payment for future vacations, but if done wisely, it can provide decades of fantastic trips at greatly reduced prices. After 20 years, I know.   Echino, don't think for one minute that all these TUG members are financial idiots. We are not. There are plenty of bean counters and number crunchers "alive and well" on this board. And many have spent their lives in finance as a career, and a great majority loudly tout the timeshare system (particularly Marriott), and benefit from it in their own families.  I know a few. Do you truly think they got fooled and still don't realize it?  or that they are in denial?  Not likely......if so, they would have been astute enough to abandon this timeshare thing long ago. But it simply doesn't pan out as you seem to think. Maybe YOU haven't seen the right numbers. There are different ways to do things, different strokes for different folks, but the timeshare way isn't a fool's endeavor if done the right way.

Take this bottom line approach: if echino and I both go to Marriott Grande Ocean next June, echino will pay around $3000 to rent the same unit that I'll get for the exorbitant maintenance fee of $1400 (is that fee something to equate to a freight train? If so, I like trains). Not to mention I bought a couple of my weeks resale and saved a lot, so I'm pretty satisfied about that.
I'll get my money back on those 100%, AFTER years of usage.

Contrary to what many might think, we do actually travel to places other than Marriott destinations.
(News Flash: My favorite resort isn't even a Marriott!!)
We often use other resort systems and/or hotels while gladly paying their higher prices, but we also do our homework there as much as possible, but frankly THOSE places have less potential to be obtained at a discount. But those trips are much fewer in number than the timeshare "bargains" we enjoy today because of our long participation and our buying smart initially.

Echino's perception, experience, or "whatever" regarding timeshare ownership and its "inherent evil and negativity" sound like pure hyperbole at best, and even more like a lack of real personal knowledge about how things actually work based on real experience. (I said "sounds like it". Could be a total disenchantment with what he got himself into, I don't know.) But as a blanket assessment, his statements are simply not true, so I can't decide if he actually owned something or not-----or if he only heard someone else relate their bad experience. I think he should continue to do what he does, but stick around here and listen for a while.  There's much to be learned. (If he's been around here since 2008 like it says, I'm at a loss.)

Not everyone here has the same needs or preferences. Read just a little and that becomes obvious.
IMHO, the advice here is not a simple "do it", but rather "this (or this or this) might be the best way to do it".  Big difference.


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## echino

No, I have never owned a timeshare. I have been on this forum for about 10 years and still keep an open mind about timesharing and trying to learn as much as possible. I like the miles and points game and consider myself "a pro" of sorts in this, and I am looking at timeshares from the same "game the system" angle, and not seeing much opportunity here. I am considering buying a timeshare to use. A fixed holiday week at a place I know I will be traveling every year. No exchange shenanigans please. Then there is value to be had, in very limited circumstances. I have still not found one that would work for me.

I am going to Hawaii again in a couple of weeks with the whole family for the kids school spring break for two weeks. Rented a Hilton Hawaiian Village Lagoon Tower 2br from TUG marketplace, and Marriott Ko Olina 2br from eBay. Paid close to maintenance fees for both. No ongoing obligations of owning.


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## jme

echino said:


> No, I have never owned a timeshare. I have been on this forum for about 10 years and still keep an open mind about timesharing and trying to learn as much as possible. I like the miles and points game and consider myself "a pro" of sorts in this, and I am looking at timeshares from the same "game the system" angle, and not seeing much opportunity here. I am considering buying a timeshare to use. A fixed holiday week at a place I know I will be traveling every year. No exchange shenanigans please. Then there is value to be had, in very limited circumstances. I have still not found one that would work for me.
> 
> I am going to Hawaii again in a couple of weeks with the whole family for the kids school spring break for two weeks. Rented a Hilton Hawaiian Village Lagoon Tower 2br from TUG marketplace, and Marriott Ko Olina 2br from eBay. Paid close to maintenance fees for both. No ongoing obligations of owning.



I understand your points, and you've done OK on your acquisitions, but I would still argue this:
Fact remains that high season (when many prefer to go, or will only go) in a highly prized resort destination CANNOT be had "for a maintenance fee" on a consistent basis, and for us, we go consistently, so the "maybe sometimes" won't fly.

Example again, you will NEVER get an oceanfront villa at Grande Ocean Hilton Head in summer for $1400...never. So if that's what somebody wants, they must abandon that. Or try Aruba over New Year's Eve.  Over $4400 a week rental, some as high as $7000 a week. Or ski weeks in Park City Utah for thousands a week, not a dime less. Might as well dismiss that thought too. So what I'm talking about is highest quality time at highest quality resort, with no compromises. Seems you might accept compromises in time or place. I don't particularly look to do that with my family because "they want what they want". Hawaii is so saturated that deals pop up somewhat more frequently than other destinations, similar to Orlando.

Speaking of ownership and advantages, I split a lock-off last year and traded a studio in Williamsburg, VA for a 1BR villa (full kitchen, LR, etc) at Marriott's Maui Ocean Club for my daughter & husband.  That cost me zero fees to trade (other than the initial split fee), and my actual cost was half a maintenance fee. The remaining split-off 1BR at Williamsburg (also traded in) got me a 2BR villa at Hilton Head's Grande Ocean in August (platinum time).  Benefit of ownership, otherwise not doable.


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## GaryDouglas

dioxide45 said:


> They could buy it resale on eBay or Craigslist though and save lots of money. Just like timeshares.



If they want all the latest technology (Large OLED Television, all UHD/4K devices in the delivery chain, such as the streaming devices, home theater receiver, media server and UHD Bluray player) then you'll have to wait a year or two for them to start to appear on the secondary market or be very lucky at an estate sale.

After my heart attack, I had a different take on waiting...


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## echino

GoldenVIKE said:


> Ritz-Carlton Clubs don't meet your definition of luxury?



I looked it up, so am I reading it wrong, or is it just five locations?
http://www.ritzcarltonclub.com/explore-destinations/ritz-carlton-club.shtml

There is also RC Residences, is it the same thing, can you book it with your points? For example, I am going to Oahu in March with the family, and I needed to book accommodations about a month before travel. I rented with no problem. If I had purchased the same package as you, what could I book on Oahu for one or two weeks in March? Please look at real availability, not theoretical. I would guess nothing is available one month before travel, but who knows. Maybe I am wrong.


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## echino

Hi I'm new here said:


> Echino, can you break down the location?  Is this Westin Kaanapali?  I once walked that resort to see where a friend stayed, owner rental.  We stayed once at the Westin hotel and once at Sheraton Kaanapali, both with Pleasant Hawaiian Holiday packages.  This travel company has unbeatable pricing, sometimes lodging and a car for not much more than airfare.
> We've had great owner rentals in Hawaii on several islands, Marriott and non Marriott.  Especially wonderful options on Kauai.



This is Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas North. It is in different location from Westin Hotel. We went with a large family and needed space, so a timeshare was a good match for us. It was a New Year week. Rented from owner on craigslist for $2,500, which I think was less than maintenance fees.

I know I cannot consistently and reliably rent holiday weeks close to maintenance fees, but I don't need to. There are other options than just staying at a timeshare.


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## davidvel

JIMinNC said:


> But, I believe the docs give MVC, as program manager, the right to rent and otherwise use intervals not occupied by owners, and to do that for profit (while still preventing owners from doing the same). So since MVC is the manager of the DC Trust and related entities, why would there be an issue with the Trust violating the no commercial activity prohibition?


Quick post here, as I'm sidetracked on a busy business commitment, but I don't think the DC trust qualifies as the developer/declrant which he exemptions apply to. But I will follow up.


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## BocaBoy

echino said:


> Marriott is not in the same league as true luxury accommodations, like Aman, MO, or even FS. I would say Marriott is about 4* on average. They may call themselves luxury, sure, but they are not. It's about the same when they call their timeshare units "villas".
> 
> Regarding increased flexibility when you own a timeshare. In real life most people have limited vacation time. If you own a timeshare, you will plan your vacation around your timeshare ownership. You are paying maintenance fees for it. So in practice owning a timeshare eliminates any vacations not involving your timeshare. You get tied to it, and lose out on a huge world that is outside of the system.


Most people would not so severely limit the definition of luxury in the way you do.  More importantly, you do not seem to understand how timeshares can add great FLEXIBILITY to your vacations, nor do you want to hear how many of us have found that to be true.  Although you have never owned a timeshare, your posts indicate a belief that you know more about how a timeshare can (or cannot) be used than some very experienced owners here.  If you don't like the facts, just make up your own I guess.


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## bazzap

I am finding it increasingly difficult to understand why those who have never owned a timeshare, have no desire to own a timeshare and see absolutely no merit in owning a timeshare spend so much time posting these views on this Timeshare "User" Group forum.
It is not as if the many owners and regulars in the group are not very open and honest in sharing both the negative and positive aspects of timeshare ownership to the benefit of those potentially seeking to buy to help them make informed judgements.
So what is the objective?


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## Saintsfanfl

To me it's a combination of trolling and "my way is the only way".

I will add that echino doesn't want to plan ahead and looks for deals with shorter notice. Since he doesn't want to exchange, a fixed week is his only viable option. Timesharing is clearly not for him.

So you have someone at one extreme, no planning 1 year out, willing to rent from an owner (but not an exchange), thinking their methods must apply to everyone. The OP is potentially on the other end of the spectrum. Why should the OP be forced to play the last minute discount game and rent from owners? Many of us have absolutely no interest in that but we respect that it might be a good fit for someone like echino.


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## GoldenVIKE

We will book most of our trips around a year in advance because we'll be traveling with 2 kids and likely bring another family or a set of the kids' grandparents along, and we'll probably be going peak season or even ultra-peak times a good amount of time.  We're consciously and happily paying a premium in order to have the ability to do that, and understand it'll take some planning; but also appreciate that once it's booked, we don't have to worry about anything going wrong because we booked it direct and can even cancel or change it if we absolutely need to.

Echino, everyone agrees that you can save all kinds of money being flexible and renting from other owners, snatching up last minute deals, etc, as you describe.  That's covered pretty thoroughly here, but just doesn't fit what we're looking for.  If it was just the two of us traveling then we wouldn't be buying TS.  We've done Home Away etc and know enough about that process that we don't want to deal with that when traveling with a group of 6-8 people.

Forgive me, but the summary of your contribution on here seems to be, "You're all idiots for owning TS, look at how good I am at this, my resorts are nicer than your resorts, and BTW i don't own a timeshare but am considering buying one."  Whaat?


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## GregT

echino said:


> What's more, it also makes no sense from non-financial standpoint.



Yes it does -- it makes perfect sense, most especially from a non-financial standpoint.  You may not like the arcane rules, but the OP bought a package that lets him maximize the arcane rules at a large and growing portfolio of high quality timeshare properties.

He has a growing family and is well positioned to choose beach/ski/golf/urban vacation options for years to come and I believe he will have priceless family memories from this ownership.   I would bet that over the next 10 years, he further increases his timeshare holdings and has no regrets, versus viewing it as a mistake and being bitter about the decision.  I'll bet you an all-expense paid trip to Maui in 2027 (staying in a timeshare of course) .

I had the utter freedom you described in an earlier post until I purchased my first timeshare in 2005, and my vacation experience since that 2005 purchase is far superior, with timeshares being a major part of that improvement.   I've taken 78 vacations since 2005, 60 in timeshares.   The 18 non-timeshares were Disney cruises, Tuscan villas, and various VRBO homes in great locations and were terrific too -- there is a role for everything, but timeshares have been the key to my vacation experience.

The vast majority of my timeshare vacations were personally owned properties/systems at great locations -- Maui, Oahu, Kauai, Big Island, Bahamas, St. Thomas, Aruba, Hilton Head, Big Bear, Las Vegas, Orlando, and Palm Desert.  Many return trips to these locations too -- and I know I will be going back to my favorite places.

So my system is working for me -- and your system is working for you.  Good for both of us.  But I think you swing too wide in not recognizing the incredible value that can come from timeshare ownership.

Best,

Greg


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## l0410z

This is an interesting thread with some twists and turns along the way.  In terms of loss of freedom I disagree, I do not believe you have any if you vacation the way you want.  To analysis this financially you need a crystal ball and if I had one I would not waste it on my timeshare.  Also, you should only be spending discretionary money. 

 In 1993 I stayed at a hotel on the beach in Palmetto Dunes and it cost me about 1000.  I remember this because the following year I rented a unit at the Monarch and paid 1200.  The 200 difference for a 2 bedroom that my kids could be in another room.... a dream come true.   In 1995 I purchased a Monarch resale from Marriott for 12,000.  The reasons, I enjoyed HHI,  2 bedroom instead of hotel room, the option of getting 130,000 MRP every year,   trading into the II system to go elsewhere and finally it forced me to think about family vacations every year.  This  was the extent of my analysis.   If someone told me in 1995 that my MF would increase from 420  to 1420 in 2017, trading for MR points would become nearly a valueless benefit, II exchanges would become more difficult, the resale value of my timeshare might go to zero and occasionally life will get in the way,  I would never have purchased.   I am glad no one did because it would have been the wrong decision.  The one benefit I didn't account for (family memories aside) so maybe it was dumb luck,  was the ability to rent my unit.  This provided a constant link from the changing landscape of timeshares to the world outside of timeshares.  

A look at the numbers
My MF's over my 23 years of ownership  were about 19,000 or about 825 per year.  This is still less than I paid for the hotel room in 1993.  If you spread the 12,000 over 23 years that has you at 1350 per year.  Still a bargain to me and not much more than I paid in rent in 1994. In 1995, the rental was 1200 through an agent so lets assume the agent got 25% so the owners got 900.   I own an ocean front unit that i rented for 2700 in 2017.  This has almost kept pace with my MF increase.   The 2700 will get me 4 weeks at Airbnb's in various cities in Italy (I am looking at this for the summer) or a week at a 4 star inclusive hotel in Punta Cana (looking at for April). 

In 2001, I used MR for a travel package of 4 round trip tickets anywhere in the world, 2 weeks at a hotel and a 1 week car rental.  We did a three week vacation visiting London, Paris, Madrid and  Malaga mostly funded by timeshare MR points.   Last year I traded for a 7 days package when AA was giving the 25% bonus.  It got me to 2 Rt tickets nonstop to Barcelona and 7 nights at the Cotton House.  This year I did the Travel Package for Southwest miles with a Companion Ticket.  Some of this was from my last trade for MR points in 2005, some of it was from gong to timeshare presentations (just got 50K for a local LI presentation) and some of it was from my relationship formed with Marriott since 1995. BTW,  If we go to Punta Cana I will be using Southwest.     We have done cruises to Alaska, Bermuda and the Caribbean all funded in part by the rental of my unit.   I can't speak for anyone else, but the benefits I got from owning a timeshare was worth it on many fronts, including financially.   I do not believe I lost any freedom from owning a timeshare.  


For anyone that thinks the money might have been better served invested elsewhere.... I had investments in both MCI and Lehman Brothers both solid companies and safe investment when I invested so maybe or maybe not.     Good and bad decisions are only determined over time and looking backwards.


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## BocaBoy

GoldenVIKE said:


> Echino,.......Forgive me, but the summary of your contribution on here seems to be, "You're all idiots for owning TS, look at how good I am at this, my resorts are nicer than your resorts, and BTW i don't own a timeshare but am considering buying one."  Whaat?


This is one of the best lines in this whole thread.  Perfectly said and it does really capture Echino's whole argument in one sentence.


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## echino

No guys, you are not idiots, you are using your timeshares to get fantastic vacations which you probably would not get otherwise. However, the problem is that do the analysis from a standpoint of someone who already owns a timeshare. Rescission period is over (if you bought from developer), and the deal is already done, the money you paid is water under the bridge. Now you learn how to get the best out of what you own. People don't like to admit their mistakes. People hate when someone tells them they got a bad deal. They get defensive. Sorry guys, but the OP got a terrible deal. That's a very unpleasant truth to accept, so he is not likely accept it, and continue to be in denial. It's too late now to get out, so he has to learn how to make the most out of it. And no doubt about it - OP will get fantastic vacations from his new ownership.


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## Saintsfanfl

Echino I don't think you know enough about what the deal means in order to conclude that it's terrible. You saw the cash outlay and you jumped to the end and started posting your opinions. You admitted you couldn't get through the thread. You are not a timeshare expert and certainly not remotely knowledgeable on the merits of the Marriott system. How would you know a good deal from a bad one? You seem to think they are all bad deals.

I was fortunate to be directed to Redweek before my first timeshare purchase and then I found tug shortly after. I have bought a humorous number of timeshares on the resale market, 2/3 of them are Marriott. I certainly don't regret buying them (bought four this morning). I think the OP got a pretty good deal.

Points aren't for me only because I cannot afford them. I stick to bargain deals that are usually shoulder season and driving distance. Sometimes I get lucky with exchanges. I make enough on rentals and resales on the side to pay for everything. My vacations cost me zero. I am a big MVCI fan so if I could afford it I would do something similar to the OP and forget all the stuff I do to get free shoulder season vacations.


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## bazzap

echino said:


> No guys, you are not idiots, you are using your timeshares to get fantastic vacations which you probably would not get otherwise. However, the problem is that do the analysis from a standpoint of someone who already owns a timeshare. Rescission period is over (if you bought from developer), and the deal is already done, the money you paid is water under the bridge. Now you learn how to get the best out of what you own. People don't like to admit their mistakes. People hate when someone tells them they got a bad deal. They get defensive. Sorry guys, but the OP got a terrible deal. That's a very unpleasant truth to accept, so he is not likely accept it, and continue to be in denial. It's too late now to get out, so he has to learn how to make the most out of it. And no doubt about it - OP will get fantastic vacations from his new ownership.


Wrong - for me anyway and quite possibly for many of us here.
We purchased with discretionary spend many years ago.
We have never regretted our purchases.
If we were to turn back time, we would purchase again.
We take plenty of other, very diverse holiday trips too so we don't feel constrained by our ownership.
Would we rather pay lower Maintenance fees? Yes of course we would.
Do we still value what we get with our ownership compared to other options? Absolutely, more than you could possibly imagine.


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## BocaBoy

Given the OP's goals, I think he got a very good deal and I doubt that he will ever regret it.  And I for one look forward to his participation here on TUG long into the future.


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## Saintsfanfl

Echino I looked back at your posts. I didn't realize that you tried hard to buy a timeshare. You even placed ebay bids. It appears you were bent on getting much lower than market price and then some. Over two years inquiring and trying but no purchase. Did you eventually get frustrated and give up or did you realize that renting from owners is more your cup of tea?


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## echino

Saintsfanfl said:


> Echino I looked back at your posts. I didn't realize that you tried hard to buy a timeshare. You even placed ebay bids. It appears you were bent on getting much lower than market price and then some. Over two years inquiring and trying but no purchase. Did you eventually get frustrated and give up or did you realize that renting from owners is more your cup of tea?



I had very good experience with renting from owners.

I have not been looking actively to buy a timeshare for several years, maybe I should take a closer look at what is available now. I am looking for a 2br fixed week 52 in Whistler since I know I would use it every year and no flights are involved. The couple I have seen for sale were so expensive up front, and with so high maintenance fees, that it was consistently cheaper to rent. I may also consider a spring break fixed week there, but also only if the price and MF is right. I have not found what I am looking for. Anything else that is available does not make financial sense to me.

When analyzing a financial aspect of buying a timeshare, I do not compare prices on marriott.com etc to what it would cost me all in if I buy a timeshare. Why? Because I do not usually go to marriott.com and pay those prices to book vacations. Therefore I cannot say that I can "save" anything compared to those prices if I buy a timeshare. Saving for me means I used to pay a high price for something, and then started paying less for the same thing. Which is not happening here. Instead, I compare the price I actually pay for vacations (by renting from owners, airbnb, hotels, OTAs, etc) with the all-in price I would pay for a comparable accommodation if I buy a timeshare. The comparison has never worked in favor of timeshare ownership in my situation.


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## Hi I'm new here

I'm still hoping the OP is really not a buyer.  In any event it is a terrible deal.  I'm on the other side of the TS debate having  previously owned one.  I truly feel my experience gives me perspective. 
I understand current owners defending the product  because I was once in their shoes.  
Anyone contemplating a purchase should go beyond reading a message board.  Please consult a financial advisor and discuss with trusted family and friends before you commit.


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## JIMinNC

echino said:


> When analyzing a financial aspect of buying a timeshare, I do not compare prices on marriott.com etc to what it would cost me all in if I buy a timeshare. Why? Because I do not usually go to marriott.com and pay those prices to book vacations. Therefore I cannot say that I can "save" anything compared to those prices if I buy a timeshare. Saving for me means I used to pay a high price for something, and then started paying less for the same thing. Which is not happening here. Instead, I compare the price I actually pay for vacations (by renting from owners, airbnb, hotels, OTAs, etc) with the all-in price I would pay for a comparable accommodation if I buy a timeshare. The comparison has never worked in favor of timeshare ownership in my situation.



You've just made a great case for why you should rent from owners instead of buying. You are comparing ownership with the way you book vacations, and since you rent from owners, timeshare doesn't look very attractive. Every time I've done a similar comparison, I come to the same conclusion. 

On the other hand, some of the rest of us DON'T rent from owners, and probably never will. For us, online sites like marriott.com are the way we book. So for us, it actually does make sense to compare against that metric for the same reason it doesn't make sense for you. We are comparing timeshares to the way we book vacations. While in actual practice, we probably wouldn't pay $500/night to book a Marriott Vacation Club timeshare on marriott.com, we would probably book a hotel of some kind for a cheaper rate. But timeshare allows us to have larger better accommodations without paying the high prices it takes to rent an MVC timeshare on somewhere like marriott.com.

I have no issue with someone saying what you said in the quote above that timeshare doesn't make sense for them because of a reason like you gave. What I do have an issue with is blanket statements that say "Timeshares are a bad deal. Period" without regard for the fact that for some people it does make sense.


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## JIMinNC

Hi I'm new here said:


> I'm still hoping the OP is really not a buyer.  In any event it is a terrible deal.  I'm on the other side of the TS debate having  previously owned one.  I truly feel my experience gives me perspective.
> I understand current owners defending the product  because I was once in their shoes.
> Anyone contemplating a purchase should go beyond reading a message board.  Please consult a financial advisor and discuss with trusted family and friends before you commit.



Just because it was a bad experience for you, does not mean you should discount the MANY people in this thread that have pointed out fact after fact that shows that, for some people, timeshares can be a very good deal. Just because you made a mistake for your circumstances doesn't mean it's bad for everyone.

Most financial advisors know very little about timeshares. Your "trusted family and friends" probably know even less. TUG members are the most knowledgeable group of timeshare owners on the planet. I would consider the voices on this board far more knowledgeable about the pluses and minuses of timeshare ownership than most financial advisors or most people you would cross paths with. The average guy on the street or financial advisors have all heard the horror stories about people who bought on a whim while on vacation and then regretted it, so their perspectives are skewed. People who are happy about their ownership don't talk as much about it as people who are unhappy.

It's also a matter of education. As TUG demonstrates, when you have knowledge about the best ways to make timeshare work, it can work very, very well. People like financial advisors and most of your friends and family don't have that knowledge, so they don't know how to make timeshare work. So yes, they will be more receptive to the negative voices.

There is no objective way - other than just willfully ignoring the facts of the OP's situation - that you could say that the OP bought on a whim. He analyzed the deal more than about anyone I have seen on this board in years. He then rescinded the original deal and got a better one. The OP is not your typical uninformed timeshare buyer that gets pressured or cajoled into making a bad decision while in the vacation euphoria.

The thing about message boards is you have to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff. You'll get lots of different opinions (as is demonstrated by this thread), so you have to be able to read them, ask more questions, and determine which opinions fit your situation and which do not. It seems the OP has done that very well and has settled on an approach that will probably work very well for him. You obviously don't agree with that because the choice he made would not be right for you, but that doesn't mean it is not right for him. Remember, I've said it over and over, one size does not fit all.


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## Saintsfanfl

I love fixed weeks and own a few in New Orleans. I especially love fixed units. Unfortunately there are very few out there.


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## SueDonJ

Hi I'm new here said:


> I'm still hoping the OP is really not a buyer.  In any event it is a terrible deal.  I'm on the other side of the TS debate having  previously owned one.  I truly feel my experience gives me perspective.
> I understand current owners defending the product  because I was once in their shoes.
> Anyone contemplating a purchase should go beyond reading a message board.  Please consult a financial advisor and discuss with trusted family and friends before you commit.



Anybody who needs to consult a financial advisor before sinking money into a timeshare obviously needs a financial advisor for a whole lot more than advice about timeshares.  It's easy.  Timeshares are NOT financial investment vehicles, and only you know whether you can afford to buy what's in front of you or you can't.  Beyond that of course it's prudent to learn what you can in order to make the choice that best fits your particular vacation lifestyle and your comfort level with person-to-person v. person-to-corporate transactions in order to live that lifestyle.  But once you've done that, which this OP obviously has, buy whatever you want and ignore anybody - salesmen and owners alike - who tries to tell you that There Is Only One Good Timeshare Model And Yours Isn't It.

Good gravy, this isn't rocket science.


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## GoldenVIKE

SueDonJ said:


> Anybody who needs to consult a financial advisor before sinking money into a timeshare obviously needs a financial advisor for a whole lot more than advice about timeshares.  It's easy.  Timeshares are NOT financial investment vehicles, and only you know whether you can afford to buy what's in front of you or you can't.  Beyond that of course it's prudent to learn what you can in order to make the choice that best fits your particular vacation lifestyle and your comfort level with person-to-person v. person-to-corporate transactions in order to live that lifestyle.  But once you've done that, which this OP obviously has, buy whatever you want and ignore anybody - salesmen and owners alike - who tries to tell you that There Is Only One Good Timeshare Model And Yours Isn't It.
> 
> Good gravy, this isn't rocket science.



Great quote.  

In response to this question, a good financial adviser should probably ask, "Do you view this as a financial investment, or as a prepayment on a bunch of future vacations that fit your budget and which you were probably going to take in some fashion anyway?"

If the former, don't do it.

If the latter, go for it.


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## MOXJO7282

While I wouldn't have purchased what the OP did I do hope he experiences what we did as a family, many,many priceless vacation memories with his family.


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## davidvel

JIMinNC said:


> I have no issue with someone saying what you said in the quote above that timeshare doesn't make sense for them because of a reason like you gave. What I do have an issue with is blanket statements that say "Timeshares are a bad deal. Period" without regard for the fact that for some people it does make sense.


I agree, but most here likely would admit that for those people who have no understanding  of how TS works in general, and DC points specifically, buying direct from the developer on the belief that everything they are told at a presentation is true (and not knowing what has been omitted),  is _almost_ always a bad idea.

There is a big difference between those whose TS knowledge going in is limited to what the person who promised free show tickets or rounds of golf told them vs. someone on TUG. In fact the OP has a better understanding than nearly all salespeople I have encountered, and a good percentage of TUG members.

People with little knowledge can get sucked into prases like: its just a discounted prepayment on a bunch of future vacations, or: its not like traditional timeshare where you are fighting with others in your season to reserve your week; or,  its so easy, there's so much flexibility,  you just call in and pick the places and dates you want to go, just like reserving a hotel. 

Of course they are not told: be sure you reserve your vacation with days that are in the correct proportion to your elected and trust points; or, if you're looking to go to any of those places on those pretty pictures we just walked by, when kids aren't in school, be sure to get up at 6am 1 year in advance and keep redialing if the website is down; or  you need to spend thousands more to reach a higher level to reserve at 13 months to snag the prime weeks,  etc, etc.

I would modify the quote to say "Timeshares are generally a bad deal, for those whose expectations are only what they know from a developer sales pitch."


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## JIMinNC

davidvel said:


> I agree, but most here likely would admit that for those people who have no understanding  of how TS works in general, and DC points specifically, buying direct from the developer on the belief that everything they are told at a presentation is true (and not knowing what has been omitted),  is _almost_ always a bad idea.
> 
> There is a big difference between those whose TS knowledge going in is limited to what the person who promised free show tickets or rounds of golf told them vs. someone on TUG. In fact the OP has a better understanding than nearly all salespeople I have encountered, and a good percentage of TUG members.
> 
> People with little knowledge can get sucked into prases like: its just a discounted prepayment on a bunch of future vacations, or: its not like traditional timeshare where you are fighting with others in your season to reserve your week; or,  its so easy, there's so much flexibility,  you just call in and pick the places and dates you want to go, just like reserving a hotel.
> 
> Of course they are not told: be sure you reserve your vacation with days that are in the correct proportion to your elected and trust points; or, if you're looking to go to any of those places on those pretty pictures we just walked by, when kids aren't in school, be sure to get up at 6am 1 year in advance and keep redialing if the website is down; or  you need to spend thousands more to reach a higher level to reserve at 13 months to snag the prime weeks,  etc, etc.
> 
> I would modify the quote to say "Timeshares are generally a bad deal, for those whose expectations are only what they know from a developer sales pitch."



Agree 100%. Most of what has been discussed in this 432-post thread has been in the context of the OP, not the typical person who purchases from a developer. I think the comments from some of us would have been very different if, way back in post #1, the OP had said:

_*"I just got back from a trip to the Caribbean and bought this great deal from Marriott, and now, whenever I want I can book two-bedroom ocean front condos in Maui in February or Christmas week at Park City. I didn't have the money to buy it, but it was such good deal, I couldn't turn it down. My sales rep said I was lucky because this was a one-day special, and they could finance it for me. So that's what I did. Was it a good deal?" *_

I think if that had been post #1, virtually everyone would have said rescind and do a lot of research. But in the OP's case, he clearly had done his homework, so in his case the answer is different.

The issue many of us have taken with the posters who are still critical of the OP's decision is that they seem to be applying the same metric they would apply to a newbie with no timeshare knowledge to the OP - someone who clearly understands and can afford what he is buying.


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## Saintsfanfl

Although the advice was to rescind. Even GregT advised to rescind once he realized the OP was still in the window. Then the OP ending up trying but the result was leverage to get a hybrid package that was initially refused. I think it ended up pretty well.


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## MOXJO7282

JIMinNC said:


> _*now, whenever I want I can book two-bedroom ocean front condos in Maui in February or Christmas week at Park City. *_


This is where I'm concerned the OP will be disappointed because he paid a premium going direct for the convenience thinking that now he just can roll out of bedroom and the reservation will be easy and he'll get what he wants easily every time and that is simply not the case, especially with these that he mentioned.  

He will still have to work for prime reservations just like someone who bought resale at a huge discount and he still might not get the exact week he really wants, just like many of us have encountered. He's also going to eat up many of his points with and the true cost will be similar to renting from Marriott when you factor in the huge initial investment. 

I'm also surprised some of our experienced TUGGERs have approved because the mantra around here is buying a big package like this direct is an albatross that is highly discouraged.  If this was a small add on package perhaps but spending the kind of money the OP did for what is thought to be super ease and convenience is tough to say it was a good move as the OP originally asked.


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## Hi I'm new here

I actually posted my comments specific to the OP. The OP plans to finance this purchase and he has a young family. TS owners defaulted left and right on these loans during the recession.  In the best of economies life has a way of evolving and it is not always positive.  Illness, disability, job loss, job change, divorce can happen to the most confident of us.  Not to mention interests and travel preference change  as we get older and our families mature.  
I wouldn't recommend the destination point package described by the OP to anyone, period. I've read these boards for years and many people  agree with me that it is a boondoggle.


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## SueDonJ

MOXJO7282 said:


> This is where I'm concerned the OP will be disappointed because he paid a premium going direct for the convenience thinking that now he just can roll out of bedroom and the reservation will be easy and he'll get what he wants easily every time and that is simply not the case, especially with these that he mentioned.
> 
> He will still have to work for prime reservations just like someone who bought resale at a huge discount and he still might not get the exact week he really wants, just like many of us have encountered. He's also going to eat up many of his points with and the true cost will be similar to renting from Marriott when you factor in the huge initial investment.



I don't have the impression that the OP doesn't understand the "subject to availability" metric that's inherent in all floating timeshare plans.  Just in case he doesn't, though, you're correct to point it out.  No doubt all of us are in agreement that anybody who wants to book high-demand intervals needs to understand the reservation rules and why it's necessary to book those intervals as far in advance as possible.



MOXJO7282 said:


> I'm also surprised some of our experienced TUGGERs have approved because the mantra around here is buying a big package like this direct is an albatross that is highly discouraged.  If this was a small add on package perhaps but spending the kind of money the OP did for what is thought to be super ease and convenience is tough to say it was a good move as the OP originally asked.



Really?  I think since the DC introduction we Marriott TUGgers have come to realize that if DC Points are the desired product, a bundle package like what this OP has purchased is the soundest, most economically-advantageous, route to take.  None of us would argue that the least-expensive way to get into Marriott ownership is now via external-resale Weeks, or, that the "best of both (Weeks and DC Points) worlds" are pre-2010 enrolled Weeks.  But neither of those options are available to this OP as a newcomer to Marriott who wants to play with the Points product.


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## SueDonJ

Hi I'm new here said:


> I actually posted my comments specific to the OP. The OP plans to finance this purchase and he has a young family. TS owners defaulted left and right on these loans during the recession.  In the best of economies life has a way of evolving and it is not always positive.  Illness, disability, job loss, job change, divorce can happen to the most confident of us.  Not to mention interests and travel preference change  as we get older and our families mature.
> I wouldn't recommend the destination point package described by the OP to anyone, period. I've read these boards for years and many people  agree with me that it is a boondoggle.



Your concern has already been addressed by replies from others but I'll repeat it - the OP has already said that he opted for financing in order to take advantage of additional incentives.  We did the exact same thing when we bought years ago in order to collect 100's of 1000's additional MRP's.  All it required was three months of installment payments on the loans after which we paid them off with the money we'd set aside for the purchases.  Marriott loans have no pre-payment penalties so it really made no sense to us not to take advantage.


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## JIMinNC

Hi I'm new here said:


> I actually posted my comments specific to the OP. The OP plans to finance this purchase and he has a young family. TS owners defaulted left and right on these loans during the recession.  In the best of economies life has a way of evolving and it is not always positive.  Illness, disability, job loss, job change, divorce can happen to the most confident of us.  Not to mention interests and travel preference change  as we get older and our families mature.



The OP said he financed not because he had to, but for the incentives and some cash flow smoothing until a home is sold after a relocation. He said he will pay off at end of the required 18-month holding period. That's totally different than financing because you have to. My impression is the OP is a senior manager in a large company who makes good money. Yes, an unexpected disruption can occur, but often life is about taking managed risks. This seems like a managed risk for the OP.



Hi I'm new here said:


> I wouldn't recommend the destination point package described by the OP to anyone, period. I've read these boards for years and many people agree with me that it is a boondoggle.



There are many that agree with you, but there are many that also disagree. Your boondoggle may be another person's opportunity. What's right for you, may not be right for me.

Why are we still debating this anyway? We've established why some agree with the OP's decision and why others disagree. But the OP is very happy with how it all came out, seems content with his decision, and is ready to move on and enjoy his ownership. It seems to meet his needs better than any of the alternatives proposed (just as our similar, but smaller, package purchased 3 years ago meets our needs).


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## echino

What? Are you telling me that OP purchased something that does not guarantee him a reservation he wants? So let's say his kids go to schools, and he wants a high demand week when kids are not in school. Like a New Years week or spring break week. Does he have a period when he is guaranteed to get what he wants, like a month-long period from 13 to 12 months before travel? Or does he have to play the reservation roulette? And may not get that week?


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## JIMinNC

echino said:


> What? Are you telling me that OP purchased something that does not guarantee him a reservation he wants? So let's say his kids go to schools, and he wants a high demand week when kids are not in school. Like a New Years week or spring break week. Does he have a period when he is guaranteed to get what he wants, like a month-long period from 13 to 12 months before travel? Or does he have to play the reservation roulette? And may not get that week?



There is never a "guarantee". But with his ownership level he can book in the 13 month window when part of the inventory is released and he's only competing with other high points owners, and then he gets a second shot at 12 months out when the rest of the inventory is released.

It's just like other limited supply/high demand bookings. If you want to reserve a few nights at the Old Faithful Inn in Yellowstone, you need to reserve the day (or maybe the hour) they open up reservations. Or like at Disney World where you have to call right when reservations open for a specific date to get the character breakfast at Cinderella's Castle. There is no guarantee in either of those either, but if you act fast, you chance is decent to good.


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## SueDonJ

echino said:


> What? Are you telling me that OP purchased something that does not guarantee him a reservation he wants? So let's say his kids go to schools, and he wants a high demand week when kids are not in school. Like a New Years week or spring break week. Does he have a period when he is guaranteed to get what he wants, like a month-long period from 13 to 12 months before travel? Or does he have to play the reservation roulette? And may not get that week?



NOBODY who owns a floating timeshare ownership is guaranteed a particular reservation!  You learn the rules for trying to get what you want all the while realizing that you're in competition with every other like owner.

This is Timeshare 101 and not exclusive to Marriott.  Floating timeshares are currently the dominant model in the industry.  I understand why some prefer fixed ownerships but can't for the life of me understand why those people insist that their way is the only way.  Obviously, MANY of us who use floating ownerships are very happy with our choice.

[edited to add] Echino, I'm curious so went back through your posting history.  You've asked for info about practically every timeshare system and since 2009 have been saying that buying timeshares is bad but renting them from owners is good.  So why do you continue to visit this site if you can't contribute anything except blanket criticisms of any of the products?  It's mind-boggling!  There are some here (Bogey comes to mind but there are others) who used to own so at least when they criticize the current products it's based on first-hand knowledge and a legitimate comparison.  And of course many here suggest that renting from owners is a wonderful option, either as owners who rent out what they own or owners who supplement their ownerships with rentals from other owners.  But there are very few who come at it with the limited knowledge and experience that you (don't) appear to possess.

I guess TUG is a good place for you to find the rental inventory that gives you good vacations, but I don't see how you have any credibility when it comes to critiquing the relative benefits of specific ownership.


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## Saintsfanfl

MOXJO7282 said:


> If this was a small add on package perhaps but spending the kind of money the OP did for what is thought to be super ease and convenience is tough to say it was a good move as the OP originally asked.



How are you defining "small add on package" or "the kind of money the OP did"? An amount of money is relative.

If you make $75K a year combined household and you have a family of 5+ Marriott will probably sell you the the hybrid package the OP bought. It clearly would not be a wise thing to do. $300k combined? $1,000,000? At some point that "kind of money" becomes small, especially for someone who manages their money well.

It's been said and worth noting again that the only way to acquire DC points and have a lower maintenance fee ratio is to get a hybrid package. Someone correct me if I am wrong but even if the OP could have found 8,000 resale points and passed ROFR at a low enough level to be cheaper after junk fees they still would have come out behind long term due to the maintenance fee difference.


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## MOXJO7282

SueDonJ said:


> I don't have the impression that the OP doesn't understand the "subject to availability" metric that's inherent in all floating timeshare plans.  Just in case he doesn't, though, you're correct to point it out.  No doubt all of us are in agreement that anybody who wants to book high-demand intervals needs to understand the reservation rules and why it's necessary to book those intervals as far in advance as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  I think since the DC introduction we Marriott TUGgers have come to realize that if DC Points are the desired product, a bundle package like what this OP has purchased is the soundest, most economically-advantageous, route to take.  None of us would argue that the least-expensive way to get into Marriott ownership is now via external-purchase Weeks, or, that the "best of both (Weeks and DC Points) worlds" are pre-2010 enrolled Weeks.  But neither of those options are available to this OP as a newcomer to Marriott who wants to play with the Points product.



Here's my point because I know Maui so well and did really want to be on the DC bandwagon but the value was just not even close. OP mentions the desire for Maui 2BD OF in Feb. That would cost him 8650 DC points for just one week. How much does that translate in MFs costs and overall costs when you factor in huge initial outlay?  I just bought a 2BDRM OF float in new towers for $19300 all-in.  That is a huge value gap to justify.

OK so that is just Maui, let me look at the other one OP mentions because I'm pretty sure it would take even more points. Well actually Marriott doesn't have a Park City so looking at Marriott's Mountainside which I think is Marriott's top ski resort for a Christmas week it is 8000.

I won't provide any more example but I know when I recently investigated I saw for all the places we liked which I think most would consider high-end, Maui, Newport Beach, Grande Ocean and the value gap was huge. Where i saw some fair value in the DC was going to these locations during shoulder season where you could get more than a week, or sometimes 3 or 4 weeks. That is not what the OP is suggesting he wants to do and therefore he is very much like me and for me the DC comes up way short and I was just articulating that. 

For those that do like the DC and think it's a good value, do you go for shoulder season multi-weeks or use all for a prime week at a high end location?

My hunch is the former.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

MOXJO7282 said:


> Here's my point because I know Maui so well and did really want to be on the DC bandwagon but the value was just not even close. OP mentions the desire for Maui 2BD OF in Feb. That would cost him 8650 DC points for just one week. How much does that translate in MFs costs and overall costs when you factor in huge initial outlay?  I just bought a 2BDRM OF float in new towers for $19300 all-in.  That is a huge value gap to justify.
> 
> OK so that is just Maui, let me look at the other one OP mentions because I'm pretty sure it would take even more points. Well actually Marriott doesn't have a Park City so looking at Marriott's Mountainside which I think is Marriott's top ski resort for a Christmas week it is 8000.
> 
> I won't provide any more example but I know when I recently investigated I saw for all the places we liked which I think most would consider high-end, Maui, Newport Beach, Grande Ocean and the value gap was huge. Where i saw some fair value in the DC was going to these locations during shoulder season where you could get more than a week, or sometimes 3 or 4 weeks. That is not what the OP is suggesting he wants to do and therefore he is very much like me and for me the DC comes up way short and I was just articulating that.
> 
> For those that do like the DC and think it's a good value, do you go for shoulder season multi-weeks or use all for a prime week at a high end location?
> 
> My hunch is the former.



Yes but you are offering an alternative of buying a specific location. What about the next year? Exchanging into another extremely high value location and week is not an option. The OP may very well go after a resale week once they find something they really like.

For shoulder season you can buy cheapo resale weeks and exchange in II. I do it all the time and you usually don't need the Marriott preference to do it. Where I see the value of DC is short stays, shoulder or prime, and the prime weeks at high end where it's not where you want to go every year.


----------



## SueDonJ

MOXJO7282 said:


> Here's my point because I know Maui so well and did really want to be on the DC bandwagon but the value was just not even close. OP mentions the desire for Maui 2BD OF in Feb. That would cost him 8650 DC points for just one week. How much does that translate in MFs costs and overall costs when you factor in huge initial outlay?  I just bought a 2BDRM OF float in new towers for $19300 all-in.  That is a huge value gap to justify.
> 
> OK so that is just Maui, let me look at the other one OP mentions because I'm pretty sure it would take even more points. Well actually Marriott doesn't have a Park City so looking at Marriott's Mountainside which I think is Marriott's top ski resort for a Christmas week it is 8000.
> 
> I won't provide any more example but I know when I recently investigated I saw for all the places we liked which I think most would consider high-end, Maui, Newport Beach, Grande Ocean and the value gap was huge. Where i saw some fair value in the DC was going to these locations during shoulder season where you could get more than a week, or sometimes 3 or 4 weeks. That is not what the OP is suggesting he wants to do and therefore he is very much like me and for me the DC comes up way short and I was just articulating that.



Skimming back through the thread I don't see where the OP has said that he'll be trying to use the Points in as limited a fashion as you've suggested.  He said he knows that some stays will require more Points and that he'll maybe look into the Points rental market to supplement as needed, and that down the road as his needs change he'll explore the Points resale market.  His Post #67 is proof enough that he knows what he's getting into, isn't it?



MOXJO7282 said:


> For those that do like the DC and think it's a good value, do you go for shoulder season multi-weeks or use all for a prime week at a high end location?
> 
> My hunch is the former.



In my case the DC system returns far more exchange value for my 3BR non-lockoffs than II ever did; that was my main incentive for enrolling Weeks in the DC as soon as it was introduced.  That still is a powerful incentive but since then our kids are grown with their own families so now Don and I are using Points rather than Weeks to book smaller units for anywhere from 2 to 14 nights at a time.  During the years since joining the DC we haven't ever gotten less value using Points than we would have if we'd booked our 3 Weeks.

We also faced some challenges with travel due to Don's recent 2-year stint in India, and some benefits too because we're sitting on a very healthy Marriott Rewards balance.  Of course it's not going to be this way every year but this year is an embarrassment of riches.  So we converted Weeks to Points and used them to book three 7-day 2BR Maui reservations this July, which have been rented out by a trusted TUGger because I still want no part of doing all that's necessary to rent out my timeshares.  Even accounting for her fees we still have netted almost 3X the MF's and have 795 Points left to play with.

Granted, we're using enrolled Weeks which return a better value MF's-wise than purchased Points.  But I don't think it's correct that most people who play in the DC Points sandbox have to sacrifice to make it work, and I think this OP has done his homework.  After asking questions here he decided to purchase a Bundle Package rather than Points-only in order to lessen his upfront and ongoing costs.  We can only hope that other new-to-Marriott folks will be as smart as he is.


----------



## BocaBoy

MOXJO7282 said:


> For those that do like the DC and think it's a good value, do you go for shoulder season multi-weeks or use all for a prime week at a high end location?
> 
> My hunch is the former.


For us it is indeed the former, but not for everybody.  The extreme example of our getting maximum value from using points is that we have been able to easily get the entire month of January ocean front at Grande Ocean for not much more than half the points we get for exchanging a Maui week, or for less points than we get from exchanging our Ko Olina week or our 3BR Las Vegas week.  And we prefer Hilton Head in January to the hot and more crowded summer months.  You can also often get prime resort accommodations in off season or shoulder season on short notice with the 30% discount for Presidential or Chairman's level status.


----------



## GregT

All,

I think one of the things that this thread has highlighted is that there is no inexpensive way to access the Marriott point system (other than as Quilter has advised -- find a CC friend ).   We TUGgers are conditioned to the value of buying resale (which is real), which holds true with Marriott weeks and with _other _timeshare point systems like Starwood and HGVC.

But the reality is that Marriott has closed the ability to buy into their point system inexpensively.  If the new visitor want to play in points with Marriott, there isn't a cheap option available to them.   We can talk all we like about the value of existing resale weeks, benefits of renting from others, the premium cost associated with pure points from Marriott, and that there are cheaper point systems available resale (like Starwood and HGVC).   But we really don't have the "rescind and buy (points) resale" advice available to us that was applicable for years to the person buying weeks.  This is not an accidental design by Marriott.

All we can do is explain to the new visitor what their options are, which is more something along the lines of either 1) rescind and give up on being in Marriott's system or 2) convert the package to a hybrid.   Even buying 8,000 points resale for the OP would probably cost him $45K and he would have higher MFs.   It's an interesting situation.

Thoughts?

Best,

Greg


----------



## Jason245

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> I think one of the things that this thread has highlighted is that there is no inexpensive way to access the Marriott point system (other than as Quilter has advised -- find a CC friend ).   We TUGgers are conditioned to the value of buying resale (which is real), and holds true with Marriott weeks and with _other _timeshare point systems like Starwood and HGVC.
> 
> But the reality is that Marriott has closed the ability to buy into their point system inexpensively.  If the new visitor want to play in points with Marriott, there isn't a cheap option available to them.   We can talk all we like about the value of existing resale weeks, benefits of renting from others, the premium cost associated with pure points from Marriott, and that there are cheaper point systems available resale (like Starwood and HGVC).   But we really don't have the "rescind and buy (points) resale" advice available to us that was applicable for years to the person buying weeks.  This is not an accidental design by Marriott.
> 
> All we can do is explain to the new visitor what their options are, which is more something along the lines of either 1) rescind and give up on being in Marriott's system or 2) convert the package to a hybrid.   Even buying 8,000 points resale for the OP would probably cost him $45K and he would have higher MFs.   It's an interesting situation.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


If you are an owner of points, complain about your inability to sell your membership to others and retain points. . Refuse to buy.. 

This stuff is just supply and demand. . Angry owners and no current current customers equals changes come..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## JIMinNC

SueDonJ said:


> In my case the DC system returns far more exchange value for my 3BR non-lockoffs than II ever did; that was my main incentive for enrolling Weeks in the DC as soon as it was introduced.  That still is a powerful incentive but since then our kids are grown with their own families so now Don and I are using Points rather than Weeks to book smaller units for anywhere from 2 to 14 nights at a time.  During the years since joining the DC we haven't ever gotten less value using Points than we would have if we'd booked our 3 Weeks.
> 
> We also faced some challenges with travel due to Don's recent 2-year stint in India, and some benefits too because we're sitting on a very healthy Marriott Rewards balance.  Of course it's not going to be this way every year but this year is an embarrassment of riches.  So we converted Weeks to Points and used them to book three 7-day 2BR Maui reservations this July, which have been rented out by a trusted TUGger because I still want no part of doing all that's necessary to rent out my timeshares.  Even accounting for her fees we still have netted almost 3X the MF's and have 795 Points left to play with.
> 
> Granted, we're using enrolled Weeks which return a better value MF's-wise than purchased Points.  But I don't think it's correct that most people who play in the DC Points sandbox have to sacrifice to make it work, and I think this OP has done his homework.  After asking questions here he decided to purchase a Bundle Package rather than Points-only in order to lessen his upfront and ongoing costs.  We can only hope that other new-to-Marriott folks will be as smart as he is.



This is a great example of one of the advantages of points and why, for us, it's worth the extra cost vs. weeks ownership.

The anti-timeshare naysayers always use the argument - "Timeshare is for life. Your family needs may change as you go through the phases of raising children and then empty nest. Don't buy, it's too restrictive." In many ways, I think that can be a true statement for certain types of weeks ownership. That is, to an extent, why we sold a weeks-based timeshare we had owned for 16 years in another system right after we bought into Marriott in 2014. The other timeshare wasn't working for us anymore and it was going to be hard to make it work.

But points give you so many more usage options, as Susan has described, points can allow you to adapt your usage as your lifestyle changes. That's why I think points are the perfect solution for the OP. They have young children now, and over the next 20-30 years, the types of vacations thane take are going to change and evolve many times. Points can allow you to adapt much easier than the old restrictive forms of timeshare ownership. We bought our original timeshare in late 1998/early 1999 when our son was almost 4 and our daughter was 2 months. How I would have loved to have bought a Marriott points package back then.


----------



## JIMinNC

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> I think one of the things that this thread has highlighted is that there is no inexpensive way to access the Marriott point system (other than as Quilter has advised -- find a CC friend ).   We TUGgers are conditioned to the value of buying resale (which is real), and holds true with Marriott weeks and with _other _timeshare point systems like Starwood and HGVC.
> 
> But the reality is that Marriott has closed the ability to buy into their point system inexpensively.  If the new visitor want to play in points with Marriott, there isn't a cheap option available to them.   We can talk all we like about the value of existing resale weeks, benefits of renting from others, the premium cost associated with pure points from Marriott, and that there are cheaper point systems available resale (like Starwood and HGVC).   But we really don't have the "rescind and buy (points) resale" advice available to us that was applicable for years to the person buying weeks.  This is not an accidental design by Marriott.
> 
> All we can do is explain to the new visitor what their options are, which is more something along the lines of either 1) rescind and give up on being in Marriott's system or 2) convert the package to a hybrid.   Even buying 8,000 points resale for the OP would probably cost him $45K and he would have higher MFs.   It's an interesting situation.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Absolutely, Greg. I think we have a lot of folks comparing apples to oranges in this thread. You really can't compare renting weeks from owners and traditional weeks ownership to points ownership - they are different products with different advantages and disadvantages. Owner rentals and resale weeks are cheaper, but you can't accomplish the same things as easy as you can with points (short stays, cancellation flexibility, the ability to book a variety of unit sizes or views to fit your needs, etc). 

So, if owner rentals or weeks ownership meets someone's needs, then that someone would be foolish to buy points. But if owner rentals do not meet their needs and if weeks ownership doesn't meet their needs, but points do, then I don't think it's a bad move (or a boondoggle as someone called it) to buy points (as long as they can afford it).

I also find it interesting that the voices most critical of the OP and most critical of buying points are folks who don't own points. It seems, most of the people in this thread who actually use their points seem to think they work pretty well. Of course, if I had a bunch of pre-2010 enrolled weeks that gave me a lot of points, I wouldn't have much of an appetite for buying Trust points, but for those of us who weren't part of the pre-2010 party, finding a way to buy into points as reasonably as possible becomes the only viable path to being able to play in points.


----------



## bazzap

JIMinNC said:


> Absolutely, Greg. I think we have a lot of folks comparing apples to oranges in this thread. You really can't compare renting weeks from owners and traditional weeks ownership to points ownership - they are different products with different advantages and disadvantages. Owner rentals and resale weeks are cheaper, but you can't accomplish the same things as easy as you can with points (short stays, cancellation flexibility, the ability to book a variety of unit sizes or views to fit your needs, etc).
> 
> So, if owner rentals or weeks ownership meets someone's needs, then that someone would be foolish to buy points. But if owner rentals do not meet their needs and if weeks ownership doesn't meet their needs, but points do, then I don't think it's a bad move (or a boondoggle as someone called it) to buy points (as long as they can afford it).
> 
> I also find it interesting that the voices most critical of the OP and most critical of buying points are folks who don't own points. It seems, most of the people in this thread who actually use their points seem to think they work pretty well. Of course, if I had a bunch of pre-2010 enrolled weeks that gave me a lot of points, I wouldn't have much of an appetite for buying Trust points, but for those of us who weren't part of the pre-2010 party, finding a way to buy into points as reasonably as possible becomes the only viable path to being able to play in points.


Picking up on your analogy, I guess those of us who have a bowl of mixed fruit from owning a bunch of pre deadline enrolled weeks are able to benefit from both the apples and pears of weeks and points, each of which have their own advantages and disadvantages.
I might like to say that this was through sound planning, but to be honest it was really just luck in having unknowingly made the right decisions at the right time.
Not everything worked out perfectly though, as we had bought and then later enrolled a couple of Caribbean weeks which receive very disappointing points allocation.
If only we could have had hindsight on all our decisions.


----------



## MOXJO7282

Saintsfanfl said:


> Yes but you are offering an alternative of buying a specific location. What about the next year? Exchanging into another extremely high value location and week is not an option. The OP may very well go after a resale week once they find something they really like.
> 
> For shoulder season you can buy cheapo resale weeks and exchange in II. I do it all the time and you usually don't need the Marriott preference to do it. Where I see the value of DC is short stays, shoulder or prime, and the prime weeks at high end where it's not where you want to go every year.





Saintsfanfl said:


> Yes but you are offering an alternative of buying a specific location. What about the next year? Exchanging into another extremely high value location and week is not an option. The OP may very well go after a resale week once they find something they really like.
> 
> For shoulder season you can buy cheapo resale weeks and exchange in II. I do it all the time and you usually don't need the Marriott preference to do it. Where I see the value of DC is short stays, shoulder or prime, and the prime weeks at high end where it's not where you want to go every year.


 
I know people probably hate hearing my spiel by now but for $50k he could've bought, A Maui 2BD OF for $22k, 1 Newport for $8k, Mountainside - $16k for $46k total and used a reputable rental firm to pull in profit if he doesn't want the minimal hassle of doing it himself while using the week he wants or renting all three. He can then rent anything on his long list of possible places he'd like to go to with the big profit he made from his 3 weeks and have money in his pocket.


Your other point even confirms more to me that DC has limited value IMHO because that is exactly what I do for  great HHI shoulder weeks.

Lastly, part of what I do professionally is manage risk for my company.  God forbid the OPs financial situation changes having all those points is a huge risk whereas the 3 resale weeks is minimal risk because if you got even a fair resale deal you won't lose your shirt if you have to liquidate.

This is my last comment on the matter, I apologize if I offended anyone with my comments but I do feel strongly about my approach because it's been so wildly successful for us without much difficulty at all and I offer it to others in case they thought about the possibility and it makes sense to them but I can get overzealous so I'll end here until the next new OP asked the question so at the very least I can offer an alternative they can consider or dismiss as crazy.


----------



## Hi I'm new here

Since there are recent notes suggesting the OP lower expectations- I will add one more item. . He wants to use points at Disney World.  I've not stayed in any Marriott there but Disney pros want to be in monorail accessible lodging.  You want to be able to zoom in and out of the parks, going back to the hotel or condo for breaks, then returning for more "fun". You don't need a rental car as Disney lodging includes free rides on the airport Magic bus, monorail, bus system.  Disney lodging guests get early admission most days which is wonderful to beat the crowds. Other benefits as well including early fast pass and dinner booking. 

The Marriott TS are off property, you will need a rental car and the location is not convenient to come and go from the parks. Little kids lose patience quickly and ours  often begged to go back to the lodging pool to swim. 
For the record I'm not in the Disney cult, not in the DVC cult either.  We made the obligatory trips to see Mickey with our kids and now have tiny grandchildren to take.


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## Boom-chaka

New member here - my wife and I just returned from the MVC sales pitch at Grande Vista in Orlando.

Honestly, either this is a total scam, or I missed some critical information...what are your thoughts?

The ROI on the "entry-level" 2,000 points package is pretty abysmal: 7 years if you travel to mid-grade resort locations for >20 days / year, assuming that you take out a 5% or better loan (or pay cash, obviously). It would take 19 years to break even if this is bought using a Marriott line of credit (currently at 19% for 800 FICO score) and you book a resort for 10 days per year. In my experience, longer term loans at higher rates (15-22%) are the norm. 

How can people afford the travel required to make this worthwhile when their assets are so leveraged they need to use high-interest loans?

Here's my diatribe on the topic, if you care to read / reply:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...club-return-on-investment-in-19-years.251778/


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## Saintsfanfl

Hi I'm new here said:


> Since there are recent notes suggesting the OP lower expectations- I will add one more item. . He wants to use points at Disney World.  I've not stayed in any Marriott there but Disney pros want to be in monorail accessible lodging.  You want to be able to zoom in and out of the parks, going back to the hotel or condo for breaks, then returning for more "fun". You don't need a rental car as Disney lodging includes free rides on the airport Magic bus, monorail, bus system.  Disney lodging guests get early admission most days which is wonderful to beat the crowds. Other benefits as well including early fast pass and dinner booking.
> 
> The Marriott TS are off property, you will need a rental car and the location is not convenient to come and go from the parks. Little kids lose patience quickly and ours  often begged to go back to the lodging pool to swim.
> For the record I'm not in the Disney cult, not in the DVC cult either.  We made the obligatory trips to see Mickey with our kids and now have tiny grandchildren to take.



I'll take a rental car and stay at the Marriott's any day. That or just pay cash for the Disney resort.


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## Saintsfanfl

Boom-chaka said:


> New member here - my wife and I just returned from the MVC sales pitch at Grande Vista in Orlando.
> 
> Honestly, either this is a total scam, or I missed some critical information...what are your thoughts?
> 
> The ROI on the "entry-level" 2,000 points package is pretty abysmal: 7 years if you travel to mid-grade resort locations for >20 days / year, assuming that you take out a 5% or better loan (or pay cash, obviously). It would take 19 years to break even if this is bought using a Marriott line of credit (currently at 19% for 800 FICO score) and you book a resort for 10 days per year. In my experience, longer term loans at higher rates (15-22%) are the norm.
> 
> How can people afford the travel required to make this worthwhile when their assets are so leveraged they need to use high-interest loans?
> 
> Here's my diatribe on the topic, if you care to read / reply:
> 
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...club-return-on-investment-in-19-years.251778/



If you have to finance to make the purchase you simply don't do it. It's either cash or you finance for incentives and pay off after the required period. Nobody without the cash has any business buying a timeshare.

2,000 points won't get you squat. You need a hybrid package but any hybrid package with ~4,000 points total is probably not a good deal. You have to go in deeper and get a good week. It gets very expensive but again, no cash?, then just say no.

The interest rate is not a scam. It's an extremely high risk loan. If you want a better rate and you really want to buy and finance then you go get a HELOC or other low interest loan and finance it that way. I am not actually suggesting that but it only reiterates the point that if someone buying can get cheap money they have no business buying the package.


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## BocaBoy

Hi I'm new here said:


> The Marriott TS are off property, you will need a rental car and *the location is not convenient to come and go from the parks.* Little kids lose patience quickly and ours  often begged to go back to the lodging pool to swim.
> For the record I'm not in the Disney cult, not in the DVC cult either.  We made the obligatory trips to see Mickey with our kids and now have tiny grandchildren to take.


Again, another post that denies important facts.  Do you even know where the Marriott Orlando timeshares are located, especially the three on the Marriott World Center property?  Have you ever stayed at Sabal Palms and gone to Disney?  It is almost like going to the corner grocery store it is so close, maybe 5 minutes away.  Also, last time I checked the World Center had a shuttle to take you to and from the Disney parks if you preferred that.  Not free and not as convenient as the monorail, but quite a viable option.


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## Boom-chaka

I see...so financing a timeshare is NOT the norm?

People are dropping $28K in year one?

Excluding interest on a loan, the current return on investment for buying 2,000 points:

12 years, compared to staying for 10 days per year @ $300 / day
7 years, compared to staying for 15 days per year @ $300 / day
5 years, compared to staying for 20 days / yr @ $300 / day


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## Boom-chaka

BocaBoy said:


> ...last time I checked the World Center had a shuttle to take you to and from the Disney parks if you preferred that.  Not free and not as convenient as the monorail, but quite a viable option.


Very true.

Last November, I stayed in the Marriott World Center in Orlando for $300 / night. It's also a conference center so there is tons of mixed traffic.

They have a free, hourly bus to all the Disney properties. Magic Kingdom is ~20 min from MWC vs ~25 min from the Grande Vista.


----------



## dioxide45

Boom-chaka said:


> I see...so financing a timeshare is NOT the norm?


Actuall, more buyers finance than not. According to this thread, 56% of all purchasers finance.


----------



## Boom-chaka

dioxide45 said:


> Actuall, more buyers finance than not. According to this thread, 56% of all purchasers finance.


Here's that quote from your link to verbiage from Marriott's 2017 10-K:
"_In our North America segment in 2016, approximately 59 percent of Marriott Vacation Club customers financed their purchase with us. The average loan for our Marriott Vacation Club products totaled approximately $23,400 , which represented 86 percent of the average purchase price"_​
There are at least a couple ways to interpret that:

59% of customers used some form of financing, 41% paid cash
59% of customers used Marriott financing (current rate is 19% for an 800 FICO score), 41% paid cash or some other form of financing (e.g. HELOC, AmEx, etc.)
At 19% for Marriott financing, the Total Cost of Ownership is $70,900 for 2,000 points, annual service fees, enrollment fees and 10 years of compounded interest on a $26,500 principal.

That total cost is roughly equal to renting a $300/day* property for:
20 days per year for 10 years
15 days per year for 13 years
10 days per year for 19 years

* = includes 3% rate increase year-to-year


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## BocaBoy

Boom-chaka said:


> At 19% for Marriott financing, the Total Cost of Ownership is $70,900 for 2,000 points, annual service fees, enrollment fees and 10 years of compounded interest on a $26,500 principal.
> 
> That total cost is roughly equal to renting a $300/day* property for:
> 20 days per year for 10 years
> 15 days per year for 13 years
> 10 days per year for 19 years
> 
> * = includes 3% rate increase year-to-year


I would personally never advise someone to finance their purchase of a timeshare, but putting it on the Marriott credit card for the points and paying it off by the first payment due date is really a more lucrative way of paying cash.  The 19% rate is if you leave the balance on the credit card.  If you take a Marriott loan to finance it, the rate is more like 11-12%, still a horrible deal but not 19%.  I think it is important to be accurate when doing an analysis such as yours.  Few if anyone here on TUG would advise financing your timeshare purchase.


----------



## Hi I'm new here

I'm pretty sure banks will not finance TS as there is little to no resale value.  Not to mention TS come with sizable annual liabilities in the form of maintenance fees.   Therefore Marriott financing was born.  The default rate on TS loans was very high during the recession.  People also default or walk away from maintenance fees and the unit will be foreclosed.


----------



## Boom-chaka

BocaBoy said:


> If you take a Marriott loan to finance it, the rate is more like 11-12%, still a horrible deal but not 19%.  I think it is important to be accurate when doing an analysis such as yours.  Few if anyone here on TUG would advise financing your timeshare purchase.


Thanks! Good info...revised accordingly. It's not "$70K over 10 yrs", it's actually $60,700

2,000 point TCO = $60,700

Assumes:

11% APR financing (10 year term)
$1,060 / yr fees (doesn't account for ~3% annual fee increase)
$700 processing fee


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## Boom-chaka

Is it me, or does this market seems poised for a correction?

high upfront cost
high / increasing recurring cost for "points" (token economy) 
corporate control of points value
uncapped, perpetual membership fees
high total cost of ownership
corporate focus on pushing financing
poor value proposition for new owners vs other lodging options
robust secondary markets for reselling / trading weeks
missing a payment results in default / forfeiture
Reminds me a lot of the Cab model...hack licenses used to cost as much as a house and were considered a solid financial play with predictable value.

The hack license owners never predicted Uber and Lyft

Same with Bed & Breakfasts and hotels/motels...they used to be a solid play, then along came AirBnB

What could flip this market on its head?


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Hi I'm new here said:


> I'm pretty sure banks will not finance TS as there is little to no resale value.  Not to mention TS come with sizable annual liabilities in the form of maintenance fees.   Therefore Marriott financing was born.  The default rate on TS loans was very high during the recession.  People also default or walk away from maintenance fees and the unit will be foreclosed.



You don't need the bank to finance the timeshare specifically. What you need is borrowing capacity at low interest rates. That's why I suggested the HELOC if you had to do it and didn't have the cash.

Banks actually do finance timeshares. That's who is usually holding the mortgages. Either up front or they are sold sometime after the sale at a discount. They are high risk but the interest rates are attractive combined with the discount. Think about it. What's the resale value on a credit card? Zero with very little recourse. It doesn't stop banks from handing out credit limits like candy.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Boom-chaka said:


> Very true.
> 
> Last November, I stayed in the Marriott World Center in Orlando for $300 / night. It's also a conference center so there is tons of mixed traffic.
> 
> They have a free, hourly bus to all the Disney properties. Magic Kingdom is ~20 min from MWC vs ~25 min from the Grande Vista.



Those are bus times. It's at least 5 minutes shorter if driving. 

MK is the furthest from MWC and still only 10-15 minutes in a car. Epcot is right across the highway.


----------



## JIMinNC

Boom-chaka said:


> Is it me, or does this market seems poised for a correction?
> 
> high upfront cost
> high / increasing recurring cost for "points" (token economy)
> corporate control of points value
> uncapped, perpetual membership fees
> high total cost of ownership
> corporate focus on pushing financing
> *poor value proposition for new owners vs other lodging options*
> *robust secondary markets for reselling / trading weeks*
> missing a payment results in default / forfeiture
> Reminds me a lot of the Cab model...hack licenses used to cost as much as a house and were considered a solid financial play with predictable value.
> 
> The hack license owners never predicted Uber and Lyft
> 
> Same with Bed & Breakfasts and hotels/motels...they used to be a solid play, then along came AirBnB
> 
> What could flip this market on its head?



I've bolded a couple of points from your post in the quote above.

1.) Read this thread and you will see that for some, it is not a poor value proposition. For folks who can make rentals from private owners work for them and/or traditional resale weeks ownership work for them, the points model probably doesn't work. But the vast majority of people in the world don't do owner rentals, AirBNB, etc., they book online through regular hotel reservation sites. For many folks who value the flexibility, cancellation rights, etc. of traditional hotel-style booking, the points model is not a bad one.

2.) There is *not* a robust secondary market for reselling weeks. If there were, developers would not be able to sell weeks (those who still sell weeks) or points for prices vastly higher than the resale market price. That is the problem in timeshare - there is no equivalent to the organized, managed resale market for regular real estate, which is made possible by a network of realtors and the Multiple Listing Service. Most potential buyers do not know about the timeshare resale market, and for those that do, it is a maze of small brokers, individual sellers, and a hodgepodge of places to go to try to find what you are looking for. As a result, for most people, the developer price is the only way they know to buy timeshare, and the lower prices offered at resale do not represent a major threat for the developer prices. Marriott even references the disorganized resale market in the "risk factors" they are required by law to disclose in their annual 10-K:


> ...if the secondary market for vacation ownership interests becomes more organized and liquid than it currently is, the resulting availability of vacation ownership interests (particularly where the vacation ownership interests are available for sale at lower prices than the prices at which we would sell them) could adversely affect our sales and our sales revenues...
> ...Development of a viable secondary market may also cause the volume of vacation ownership interests inventory that we are able to repurchase to decline, which could adversely impact our development margin, as we utilize this lower cost inventory source to supplement our inventory needs and help manage our cost of vacation ownership products.



3.) There is also not a terribly organized market for timeshare owners to rent their weeks. The average guy on the street has never heard of redweek.com. They may have heard of VRBO, but there timeshares compete with houses, whole owner condos, etc. Many of the people who try to book timeshares on VRBO don't understand the owner is trying to rent a specific week and often ask the owner for different weeks thinking it's a whole owner renting their wholly-owned condo.

The developer sales model succeeds because timeshares are *sold *by the developer. They are not usually sought out by a potential buyer and bought because the customer has a specific need. Most people learn about timeshare via an incentive travel package to a timeshare resort that includes a required sales presentation, or other incentive-based inducements to attend a sales presentation. Unlike the OP in this thread, most potential purchasers base their purchase decision only on what they are told in that sales presentation, not on a more in-depth analysis where they educate themselves (as the OP did).

So what could flip the market on its head? Another major recession/depression or the emergence of a viable secondary market. But, if the secondary market did strengthen, that would probably raise resale prices as well as lower developer prices. They would likely meet somewhere in the middle.


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## BocaBoy

Saintsfanfl said:


> Banks actually do finance timeshares. That's who is usually holding the mortgages. Either up front or they are sold sometime after the sale at a discount. *They are high risk* but the interest rates are attractive combined with the discount.


Banks, insurance companies and other financial companies buy a lot of these mortgages from the developers who originate them, usually in a package of mortgages bundled together.  The borrowers are usually rather good credit risks, so while there are defaults it is usually not because of inability to pay.  The holders of these mortgages are not really relying much on the timeshares as collateral because they can normally go after the borrower personally if he/she defaults.


----------



## catharsis

Boom-chaka said:


> Here's that quote from your link to verbiage from Marriott's 2017 10-K:
> "_ (current rate is 19% for an 800 FICO score), 41% paid cash or some other form of financing (e.g. HELOC, AmEx, etc.)
> [/LIST]
> At 19% for Marriott financing, the Total Cost of Ownership is $70,900 for 2,000 points_​


_
I did point out in another thread that the MVC financing is not at 19℅ ... That is the rate on a credit card offered by (some bank) upon which Marriott Rewards Points can be earned for purchases from Marriott (sometimes amounting up to close to 10℅ rebate)
For accuracy neither the card issuer (bank) nor the card affiliation (Marriott hotels) have any connection with MVC.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

_​


----------



## catharsis

I think the genuinely disturbing issue is why developer point prices continue to rise while the rofr price of points (which is a measurement of MVCs own assessment of the value of points) continues to fall.

This to me is they key issue which makes MVC as a sales organisation indefensible.  They are *knowingly* generating a false trend and training their staff to use that deliberately manipulated trend to people who come into presentations.  This continued divergence is where the ethical line has been crossed for me and I believe the MVC sales organisation are 'bad hombres' (to misquote something I heard somewhere).....

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## GoldenVIKE

MOXJO7282 said:


> Here's my point because I know Maui so well and did really want to be on the DC bandwagon but the value was just not even close. OP mentions the desire for Maui 2BD OF in Feb. That would cost him 8650 DC points for just one week. How much does that translate in MFs costs and overall costs when you factor in huge initial outlay?  I just bought a 2BDRM OF float in new towers for $19300 all-in.  That is a huge value gap to justify.
> 
> OK so that is just Maui, let me look at the other one OP mentions because I'm pretty sure it would take even more points. Well actually Marriott doesn't have a Park City so looking at Marriott's Mountainside which I think is Marriott's top ski resort for a Christmas week it is 8000.
> 
> I won't provide any more example but I know when I recently investigated I saw for all the places we liked which I think most would consider high-end, Maui, Newport Beach, Grande Ocean and the value gap was huge. Where i saw some fair value in the DC was going to these locations during shoulder season where you could get more than a week, or sometimes 3 or 4 weeks. That is not what the OP is suggesting he wants to do and therefore he is very much like me and for me the DC comes up way short and I was just articulating that.
> 
> For those that do like the DC and think it's a good value, do you go for shoulder season multi-weeks or use all for a prime week at a high end location?
> 
> My hunch is the former.



The quote your mentioning about Maui and Park City was a hypothetical quote by another poster, saying that IF I HAD SAID THAT, then it would have been clear I was disillusioned.  I never said anything about those places.  I expect that nobody nowhere is guaranteed anything unless you own a fixed week, fixed unit, or own a vacation condo outright.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> I think one of the things that this thread has highlighted is that there is no inexpensive way to access the Marriott point system (other than as Quilter has advised -- find a CC friend ).   We TUGgers are conditioned to the value of buying resale (which is real), which holds true with Marriott weeks and with _other _timeshare point systems like Starwood and HGVC.
> 
> But the reality is that Marriott has closed the ability to buy into their point system inexpensively.  If the new visitor want to play in points with Marriott, there isn't a cheap option available to them.   We can talk all we like about the value of existing resale weeks, benefits of renting from others, the premium cost associated with pure points from Marriott, and that there are cheaper point systems available resale (like Starwood and HGVC).   But we really don't have the "rescind and buy (points) resale" advice available to us that was applicable for years to the person buying weeks.  This is not an accidental design by Marriott.
> 
> All we can do is explain to the new visitor what their options are, which is more something along the lines of either 1) rescind and give up on being in Marriott's system or 2) convert the package to a hybrid.   Even buying 8,000 points resale for the OP would probably cost him $45K and he would have higher MFs.   It's an interesting situation.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Greg, this is right.

Basically, a good resale deal will always have better upfront costs than a hybrid deal, but a good hybrid deal is always going to pass the resale eventually in terms of long-term value.  At $3-$4/pt resale, that time horizon is usually 10-15 years depending on where you peg the booking value of a point.  Even at $2.50/pt resale (an unrealistic number), the hybrid deal (at least the one we did) will catch up in 20-25 years.  We were told (by a broker, not MVCI) that less than 5% of resales go for $3.25 or less (and pass ROFR), and that $3.50-$4.00 is much more common.  And also told that we were likely to get ROFR'd by Marriott 6-7 times simply because we had recently been on a presentation.  So for us it was a no-brainer to just do the hybrid.  THAT SAID, if you want to get into MVCI and you HAVENT been on a presentation, you stand a better chance at getting a $3.25 (maybe lower even?) bid through ROFR.  If I had a magic wand and could go back and do a resale at $3.25 (or less) I'd consider it just to have the simplicity of one closing instead of two.  That $3.25 deal vs. my deal is going to be even money after 12.5 years.  And after 30 years my deal will be $8,500 better from overall cash flow. (netting out increasing MFs & increasing booking value of a point over time)  That's based on me valuing a point at $1.25; but it doesnt matter that much the math is similar at different point values.  So generally, yes if I had to give blanket advice to future MVCI newcomers, I'd probably boil it down to:

1) if you want 7,000 points or more, go hybrid (the hybrid week deals are better the larger you go)
2) if you want less than that, try resale prior to going on a presentation


----------



## GoldenVIKE

catharsis said:


> I think the genuinely disturbing issue is why developer point prices continue to rise while the rofr price of points (which is a measurement of MVCs own assessment of the value of points) continues to fall.
> 
> This to me is they key issue which makes MVC as a sales organisation indefensible.  They are *knowingly* generating a false trend and training their staff to use that deliberately manipulated trend to people who come into presentations.  This continued divergence is where the ethical line has been crossed for me and I believe the MVC sales organisation are 'bad hombres' (to misquote something I heard somewhere).....
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



Here's a quick rundown of falsehoods I was told at the presentation.  I initially let these slide as accidental, but given the volume of them and the fact that they all tend to the same direction, maybe that was generous...

- at 4,000 points you get special access to Ritz-Carlton that <4,000 pt members dont get
- at 4,000 points you get access to luxury homes (even went into the fact that there are 30 homes on St Thomas and 55 on St John)
- you get a 13 month booking window (forgot to mention this only applies to 7 night stays, which we specifically said we didn't want to be locked into)
- that the value of point has risen from $10-ish to $13-ish since 2010 and is projected to keep rising (a partial truth, but doesn't account for steep discounts)
- that the economic booking value of a point is about $2.00 (again, in some rare cases perhaps, but this is an overly rosy picture)
- that all owners get the same deal because MVCI wants to make sure that nobody feels they got a worse deal than the person staying in the next room, so resale vs. direct is not much different
- that a hybrid package has major drawbacks and "doesnt make sense for you, you're points people, bro" to quote the MVCI sales manager that i intially inquired with about the hybrid and was turned down

...I get this is probably a really tough industry to be a salesperson in, but the sales culture of the TS industry is rotten.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

Boom-chaka said:


> New member here - my wife and I just returned from the MVC sales pitch at Grande Vista in Orlando.
> 
> Honestly, either this is a total scam, or I missed some critical information...what are your thoughts?
> 
> The ROI on the "entry-level" 2,000 points package is pretty abysmal: 7 years if you travel to mid-grade resort locations for >20 days / year, assuming that you take out a 5% or better loan (or pay cash, obviously). It would take 19 years to break even if this is bought using a Marriott line of credit (currently at 19% for 800 FICO score) and you book a resort for 10 days per year. In my experience, longer term loans at higher rates (15-22%) are the norm.
> 
> How can people afford the travel required to make this worthwhile when their assets are so leveraged they need to use high-interest loans?
> 
> Here's my diatribe on the topic, if you care to read / reply:
> 
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...club-return-on-investment-in-19-years.251778/



I agree with the others that if you need to finance, don't do this.  Not only is it bad personal finance, but it kills any financial justification to do TS in the first place.  Just book on Marriott.com as an alternative (if you value ease of booking like I do), or rent weeks from other owners on Redweed, HomeAway, VRBO, etc (as others do, and save a bunch of money)

FYI I'm not sure what lies they're telling you, but our interest rate was 8.99% w/ credit score >800.  I believe that's a 10-yr loan but we'll definitely pay it off after 18 months.  We don't need the loan (just doing it for the extra perks thrown in for financing), and wouldn't be purchasing a TS if we did need to finance.


----------



## bazzap

Several of the benefits you note here are triggered by having 7,000 points.
It is extraordinary if they are promoting these as being available with 4,000 points.



GoldenVIKE said:


> Here's a quick rundown of falsehoods I was told at the presentation.  I initially let these slide as accidental, but given the volume of them and the fact that they all tend to the same direction, maybe that was generous...
> 
> - at 4,000 points you get special access to Ritz-Carlton that <4,000 pt members dont get
> - at 4,000 points you get access to luxury homes (even went into the fact that there are 30 homes on St Thomas and 55 on St John)
> - you get a 13 month booking window (forgot to mention this only applies to 7 night stays, which we specifically said we didn't want to be locked into)
> - that the value of point has risen from $10-ish to $13-ish since 2010 and is projected to keep rising (a partial truth, but doesn't account for steep discounts)
> - that the economic booking value of a point is about $2.00 (again, in some rare cases perhaps, but this is an overly rosy picture)
> - that all owners get the same deal because MVCI wants to make sure that nobody feels they got a worse deal than the person staying in the next room, so resale vs. direct is not much different
> - that a hybrid package has major drawbacks and "doesnt make sense for you, you're points people, bro" to quote the MVCI sales manager that i intially inquired with about the hybrid and was turned down
> 
> ...I get this is probably a really tough industry to be a salesperson in, but the sales culture of the TS industry is rotten.


----------



## Marathoner

GoldenVIKE said:


> ...I get this is probably a really tough industry to be a salesperson in, but the sales culture of the TS industry is rotten.



I agree with you entirely on this statement.  And the most damning thing is that your statement applies to one of the most high-end sales group in the TS industry.  Because most people are not interested in doing the level of research necessary to educate themselves properly to purchase TS, I think the recommendation of mainstream media of "stay far away from TS" is actually the right one.  But this forum has been talking about how the TS industry is dysfunctional and "eating its own young" for years and the major TS companies are still growing and very little has changed except to make the product more expensive (e.g. MVC points)!


----------



## Saintsfanfl

The struggle MVCI will have on ROFR on points is eventually there will be too many resale transactions for them to keep exercising at a certain level. This has already happened and the reason the threshold keeps dropping. They make a fortune exercising at a low level and reselling but taking them all creates too much inventory and the sales cannot keep up.

Can MVCI simply raise the junk fees to keep the resales in check? The problem with that is it then prevents owners from getting out and leads to defaults, foreclosures, and too much inventory. It was different with weeks because the HOA and other owners got stuck instead of MVCI.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

GoldenVIKE said:


> And also told that we were likely to get ROFR'd by Marriott 6-7 times simply because we had recently been on a presentation.



I'm not sure this is actually true. I was under the impression that the two departments are not linked and do not cross reference. That statement is likely an attempt to keep you from going resale. Someone else will have to confirm on points but I know with weeks it is very disconnected.


----------



## GregT

Saintsfanfl said:


> The struggle MVCI will have on ROFR on points is eventually there will be too many resale transactions for them to keep exercising at a certain level. This has already happened and the reason the threshold keeps dropping. They make a fortune exercising at a low level and reselling but taking them all creates too much inventory and the sales cannot keep up.



Additionally, they have a fair amount of inventory coming into the system from MVC New York/San Diego/Miami/Big Island and all of those Trust Points will need to be.    And Marriott is (hopefully?) looking for new locations too.

So I think this is also a factor in the declining point pricing clearing ROFR that we are seeing right now -- Marriott still gets the junk fees and doesn't ROFR because it doesn't need the inventory to sell. 

Best,

Greg


----------



## davidvel

GoldenVIKE said:


> The quote your mentioning about Maui and Park City was a hypothetical quote by another poster, saying that IF I HAD SAID THAT, then it would have been clear I was disillusioned.  I never said anything about those places.  I expect that nobody nowhere is guaranteed anything unless you own a fixed week, fixed unit, or own a vacation condo outright.


What _is_ your first proposed vacation?


----------



## BigMac

GregT said:


> Additionally, they have a fair amount of inventory coming into the system from MVC New York/San Diego/Miami/Big Island and all of those Trust Points will need to be.    And Marriott is (hopefully?) looking for new locations too.
> 
> So I think this is also a factor in the declining point pricing clearing ROFR that we are seeing right now -- Marriott still gets the junk fees and doesn't ROFR because it doesn't need the inventory to sell.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


Listened to MVC's fourth quarter results - they mentioned that they are opening  a new resort in Bali before the end of the year.


----------



## JIMinNC

catharsis said:


> I think the genuinely disturbing issue is why developer point prices continue to rise while the rofr price of points (which is a measurement of MVCs own assessment of the value of points) continues to fall.
> 
> This to me is they key issue which makes MVC as a sales organisation indefensible.  They are *knowingly* generating a false trend and training their staff to use that deliberately manipulated trend to people who come into presentations.  This continued divergence is where the ethical line has been crossed for me and I believe the MVC sales organisation are 'bad hombres' (to misquote something I heard somewhere).....
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



How can it be a "false trend"? They own the product, they can raise prices however they want to. The reason resale prices drop is because the resale market for all timeshare is small, disorganized, and illiquid. In reality, resale timeshare and developer timeshare are two separate markets, with two separate supply and demand equations. The reason for this is most people who attend developer presentations are not truly aware of the resale market. There is little visibility for resale marketplaces. So, resale prices are driven by the supply and demand of resale weeks/points amongst the minority of consumers who are aware of the resale timeshare marketplaces. Developer prices are driven by the supply and demand for developer product. The developers only really impact resale prices to the extent that developers opt to exercise their ROFR rights. That does serve to put a floor under prices to an extent.

Developers raise prices because of the law of supply and demand *within the developer market*. They raise prices and people still buy. If they raised prices and people quit buying, they would stop. Their sales techniques may artificially increase demand beyond what it would typically be organically, but they are still successfully increasing demand for their product. But all companies try to increase demand for their product. That's what advertising is - attempts to build a brand to increase demand above the level that its world be otherwise without that marketing. Have you seen Marriott Vacations Worldwide's stock lately? In October it was trading around $60/share. Now, it's knocking on the door of $100/share. Their latest quarterly earning announced on Thursday were the best ever for the company. Their CEO said:



> "I am extraordinarily pleased with how we finished 2016. In the fourth quarter, contract sales grew nearly 15 percent, driving $95 million of Adjusted EBITDA, our strongest quarter as a public company," said Stephen P. Weisz, president and chief executive officer. "We continue to execute our growth strategy as our same store marketing initiatives continue to build a strong tour pipeline, and we opened our sixth new sales center for 2016 at our Miami Beach location in the last week of December. Subsequent to the end of the year, we opened our additional New York sales location, adding to our momentum and giving us confidence that we will achieve 2017 contract sales growth of 9 to 15 percent, net income of $139 million to $148 million, and Adjusted EBITDA of $276 million to $291 million for the full year."



I almost bought a few hundred shares back in October. But I didn't...If I had, I could maybe have let Marriott Vacations Worldwide buy my next points package for me....


----------



## bazzap

BigMac said:


> Listened to MVC's fourth quarter results - they mentioned that they are opening  a new resort in Bali before the end of the year.


Yes, it is a conversion of an existing Marriott resort so hopefully will be open this Autumn (or Fall as you like to call it)


----------



## GoldenVIKE

davidvel said:


> What _is_ your first proposed vacation?



Likely a wide variety of locations, room sizes, and seasons (although typically October-April most of the time) as our family grows up etc.  Urban, mountain, beach, domestic/foreign, etc.  Our anticipated variety is a big reason we went MVCI points vs. weeks or another system w/ fewer options.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

BigMac said:


> Listened to MVC's fourth quarter results - they mentioned that they are opening  a new resort in Bali before the end of the year.



I was told at presentation that while the existing Starwood (whatever it's called) TS system is going to remain separate, a number of legacy-Starwood hotels may be converted to MVCI properties.


----------



## SueDonJ

GoldenVIKE said:


> I was told at presentation that while the existing Starwood (whatever it's called) TS system is going to remain separate, a number of legacy-Starwood hotels may be converted to MVCI properties.



I expect this to happen.  Since the DC inception the model for MVW has been to contract with outside developers to refurb existing hotel inventory, at some point acquiring it and conveying it to the DC Trust as Pulse-branded intervals.  While they're not limited to deal only with Marriott-branded hotel properties, it appears that's their preference and now the formerly-Starwood hotels fit that bill.

(FYI, Starwood's timeshare business was renamed Vistana Signature Experiences and was spun off prior to Marriott acquiring Starwood's hotel business.)


----------



## catharsis

JIMinNC said:


> How can it be a "false trend"? They own the product, they can raise prices however they want to.
> 
> Developer prices are driven by the supply and demand for developer product. The developers only really impact resale prices to the extent that developers opt to exercise their ROFR rights. That does serve to put a floor under prices to an extent.
> 
> Developers raise prices because of the law of supply and demand *within the developer market*. They raise prices and people still buy. If they raised prices and people quit buying, they would stop.
> 
> 
> Have you seen Marriott Vacations Worldwide's stock lately? In October it was trading around $60/share. Now, it's knocking on the door of $100/share.
> 
> I almost bought a few hundred shares back in October. But I didn't...If I had, I could maybe have let Marriott Vacations Worldwide buy my next points package for me....



I rarely disagree with Jim's posts but....

1. That do not own the product. There is something called a trust? That are "one* seller of an item (ab)using a dominant market position to extract economic rent... It's textbook!

2. Resale points and developer points are *identical* (assuming junk fees paid)

This means that  assertions about illiquidity etc. aren't justified... There are a lot of points for sale out there and they are all identical = liquid (I would agree re weeks but not points)

3. The 'trend' is false because the price is definitely *not* set by supply and demand as you suggest but by marketing pressure.  The increase in price has nothing to do with demand and everything to do with demand creation.  Specifically there is no supply decrease nor any reason for the spontaneous demand graph shift you suggest has occured to force prices upwards .  Supply and demand is NOT how prices work in monopoly situations as every economics undergrad knows ... Nor are there two markets and two sets of S&D graphs... Rather we have "price discrimination" in the textbook sense.

(NB how can you suggest 'they can set the price' and then use 'supply and demand' in the same paragraph? -they are contradictory!)

4. The stock performance does not mean they are ethical or even obeying the law ..  it just means the stock price has gone up (due to increased demand which has occurred because if rational expectations of a stock price increase -sound familiar?) 

5. I wish I had bought at 60 also! ... (So would any sensible person.  Doesn't speak to any of the other points though)

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## JIMinNC

catharsis said:


> I rarely disagree with Jim's posts but....
> 
> 1. That do not own the product. There is something called a trust? That are "one* seller of an item (ab)using a dominant market position to extract economic rent... It's textbook!
> 
> 2. Resale points and developer points are *identical* (assuming junk fees paid)
> 
> This means that  assertions about illiquidity etc. aren't justified... There are a lot of points for sale out there and they are all identical = liquid (I would agree re weeks but not points)
> 
> 3. The 'trend' is false because the price is definitely *not* set by supply and demand as you suggest but by marketing pressure.  The increase in price has nothing to do with demand and everything to do with demand creation.  Specifically there is no supply decrease nor any reason for the spontaneous demand graph shift you suggest has occured to force prices upwards .  Supply and demand is NOT how prices work in monopoly situations as every economics undergrad knows ... Nor are there two markets and two sets of S&D graphs... Rather we have "price discrimination" in the textbook sense.
> 
> (NB how can you suggest 'they can set the price' and then use 'supply and demand' in the same paragraph? -they are contradictory!)
> 
> 4. The stock performance does not mean they are ethical or even obeying the law ..  it just means the stock price has gone up (due to increased demand which has occurred because if rational expectations of a stock price increase -sound familiar?)
> 
> 5. I wish I had bought at 60 also! ... (So would any sensible person.  Doesn't speak to any of the other points though)
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk




My thoughts...

1.) I agree I misspoke when I said they "own" the product. What I meant to say was they control the inventory/supply and set the price based on what price they think the market will bear (that's why supply/demand still matters).

2.) While resale points and developer points are identical in product features, the marketplaces for each are definitely not the same. Unlike traditional real estate, the resale and developer markets for timeshare aren't connected. A Realtor can find you a new house from a builder/developer (sharing the commission with the builder's agent) or a resale house (sharing the commission with the seller's agent). In timeshare, only the developer can sell "new". Plus, everyone knows about the market for resale homes because of the market visibility provided by the Multiple Listing Service and Realtors. There is no such animal for timeshare weeks or points. While TUGgers know where to go for resale weeks or points, 99% of the rest of the population does not. The resale and developer markets for timeshare are two totally separate marketplaces that come together only in very rare instances (like MVC Hybrid Bundles). The timeshare resale market is somewhat illiquid because there is not a ready-made marketplace that any rational potential buyer knows about. Yes, you can sell your week or your points, but there are many, many people that would be potential buyers of your week or points, but they don't even know you have your points for sale.  If there were more potential buyers who knew about the resale market, demand for resale weeks would rise, as would prices. That's how the weak resale marketplace helps to restrict the supply of timeshare weeks *known* to the average buyer, thus helping to keep developer prices high.

3.) I could argue that ALL marketing is demand creation of one type or another. Companies advertise and sell their products to create demand. Companies create products all the time because they can, and then create a market for it. No one knew there was a market for the iPhone until Steve Jobs invented it and created a market for it. When many new products are invented, there is no demand for that product. If they meet a need and are priced right for the marketplace (as the iPhone was), they will be successful. When Apple invented the iPhone they set the price at a price they thought the market would bear. All companies set their price - including MVC - based on what they think the market will bear. If they suddenly increased the price of DC points to $20/point, I'm fairly confident demand would fall off the table. They are not a monopoly. They have to compete with Hilton, Vistana, Hyatt, etc. so those competitive forces and supply/demand still apply (it's just in timeshare the supply is restricted because of the lack of visibility to resales, and the demand is pushed/inflated by developer sales tactics). Looked at another way, if the average potential timeshare buyer had full visibility and transparency into the resale market, they would know there are many weeks and many DC Points out there for sale at a fraction of the price that a developer charges. That would have the effect of increasing the supply of available weeks and points that the buyer is aware of. So, if supply goes up due to increased visibility of resale, the price of developer weeks/points would go down and demand for resale weeks/points would go up, as would resale prices. If the resale and developer marketplaces were equally visible to the average buyer (as they are in traditional real estate) both resale and developer prices would settle somewhere near an equilibrium. But because of the lack of visibility and organization of a robust timeshare resale market, for *most* buyers, the market is limited to the product sold by developers, so they can set their prices somewhat independently because they control the supply (since the typical buyer isn't aware of resale).

4.) Obviously I agree with this point. I'm not defending the sales model for timeshare. It's based on selling someone something without them having full knowledge of the alternatives, and the whole focus is to get them to buy "today" to avoid them having the opportunity to research alternatives. Most people don't take advantage of the rescission period to do their due diligence either. So, I agree that the prices developers can charge are inflated by the sales techniques they use. I'm not sure I would go as far as to call them illegal, and I'm not even sure unethical is correct either. Certainly, some sales reps, in their drive to make a sale cross the line into unethical behavior and the sales model does tend to invite that behavior, but I don't think the sales model itself is necessarily unethical at its core.

5.) My point about the stock price was simply that the company is doing well. Even though they keep increasing the prices, they have yet to reach a price point where buyers balk and demand starts to fall. In the end, that is the ultimate yardstick. Are people buying? And for good or bad, it appears they are.


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## Saintsfanfl

I don't think the difference between houses and timeshares is market visibility. Anyone seeking out a timeshare resale need only to type in a simple search and they will find plenty. The difference is everyone needs a place to live but nobody "needs" a timeshare. Nobody looks at the market because they aren't shopping. It takes a timeshare presentation for someone to be convinced that they need this thing. And then if resale is brought up they are lied to in order to stear them away.


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## catharsis

JIMinNC said:


> My thoughts...
> 
> 1.) I agree I misspoke when I said they "own" the product. What I meant to say was they control the inventory/supply and set the price based on what price they think the market will bear (that's why supply/demand still matters).
> 
> 2.) While resale points and developer points are identical in product features, the marketplaces for each are definitely not the same. Unlike traditional real estate, the resale and developer markets for timeshare aren't connected. A Realtor can find you a new house from a builder/developer (sharing the commission with the builder's agent) or a resale house (sharing the commission with the seller's agent). In timeshare, only the developer can sell "new". Plus, everyone knows about the market for resale homes because of the market visibility provided by the Multiple Listing Service and Realtors. There is no such animal for timeshare weeks or points. While TUGgers know where to go for resale weeks or points, 99% of the rest of the population does not. The resale and developer markets for timeshare are two totally separate marketplaces that come together only in very rare instances (like MVC Hybrid Bundles). The timeshare resale market is somewhat illiquid because there is not a ready-made marketplace that any rational potential buyer knows about. Yes, you can sell your week or your points, but there are many, many people that would be potential buyers of your week or points, but they don't even know you have your points for sale.  If there were more potential buyers who knew about the resale market, demand for resale weeks would rise, as would prices. That's how the weak resale marketplace helps to restrict the supply of timeshare weeks *known* to the average buyer, thus helping to keep developer prices high.
> 
> 3.) I could argue that ALL marketing is demand creation of one type or another. Companies advertise and sell their products to create demand. Companies create products all the time because they can, and then create a market for it. No one knew there was a market for the iPhone until Steve Jobs invented it and created a market for it. When many new products are invented, there is no demand for that product. If they meet a need and are priced right for the marketplace (as the iPhone was), they will be successful. When Apple invented the iPhone they set the price at a price they thought the market would bear. All companies set their price - including MVC - based on what they think the market will bear. If they suddenly increased the price of DC points to $20/point, I'm fairly confident demand would fall off the table. They are not a monopoly. They have to compete with Hilton, Vistana, Hyatt, etc. so those competitive forces and supply/demand still apply (it's just in timeshare the supply is restricted because of the lack of visibility to resales, and the demand is pushed/inflated by developer sales tactics). Looked at another way, if the average potential timeshare buyer had full visibility and transparency into the resale market, they would know there are many weeks and many DC Points out there for sale at a fraction of the price that a developer charges. That would have the effect of increasing the supply of available weeks and points that the buyer is aware of. So, if supply goes up due to increased visibility of resale, the price of developer weeks/points would go down and demand for resale weeks/points would go up, as would resale prices. If the resale and developer marketplaces were equally visible to the average buyer (as they are in traditional real estate) both resale and developer prices would settle somewhere near an equilibrium. But because of the lack of visibility and organization of a robust timeshare resale market, for *most* buyers, the market is limited to the product sold by developers, so they can set their prices somewhat independently because they control the supply (since the typical buyer isn't aware of resale).
> 
> 4.) Obviously I agree with this point. I'm not defending the sales model for timeshare. It's based on selling someone something without them having full knowledge of the alternatives, and the whole focus is to get them to buy "today" to avoid them having the opportunity to research alternatives. Most people don't take advantage of the rescission period to do their due diligence either. So, I agree that the prices developers can charge are inflated by the sales techniques they use. I'm not sure I would go as far as to call them illegal, and I'm not even sure unethical is correct either. Certainly, some sales reps, in their drive to make a sale cross the line into unethical behavior and the sales model does tend to invite that behavior, but I don't think the sales model itself is necessarily unethical at its core.
> 
> 5.) My point about the stock price was simply that the company is doing well. Even though they keep increasing the prices, they have yet to reach a price point where buyers balk and demand starts to fall. In the end, that is the ultimate yardstick. Are people buying? And for good or bad, it appears they are.



It is my assertion that the primary motivation and plan behind regular quarterly price increases is not to make more money (directly) from sales, but rather to create/re-inforce the impression that points are an asset which is appreciating.  All MVW personnel mention price increases as appreciation so it is reasonable to assume it may be part of corporate sales training.

The reason I believe this is unethical is that this strategy is followed despite MVW having full guaranteed 100% up-to-the-second visibility into the actual value of these points obtained through their ROFR waiver process meaning that it is impossible for a trade to legally be completed in these points wihout Marriott knowing about it.

In my opinion, Marriott are raising prices to create an impression of asset appreciation while being fully aware that the real value of the points continues to depreciate over time.


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## Saintsfanfl

I don't think knowledge of the resale market would increase the prices all that much. Maybe a little but not much. The fact remains that most timeshare units are worthless. Even ones that have value take a special kind of person for it to be a wise purchase, even resale.

Hundreds of people that I know understand that I do timeshares. Some have been to presentations. I have booked vacations for some of them. Not a single one of them has any interest in buying a resale timeshare. I even have two people that have a free week credit with me and they never use it because they don't plan more than two weeks out.

The only person that I personally know outside of tug that owns a timeshare of is an uncle that turned me onto Marriott.

These people have the knowledge of the resale market from me but still zero interest. There is something about paying money up front for the right to pay more money later for the right to do something you aren't 100% sure you will want to do or when. It works for me but none of them.

P.S. Close friend called me up yesterday and wanted a week for spring break in a few weeks at prime location. I'm like, "How about we plan for 2018".

P.S.S. I lied. I have another close friend that owns a timeshare. They bought it in gatlinburg after a presentation almost 15 years about. They financed it and have faithfully made every payment and annual fee. They have never once used or exchanged the timeshare.


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## BocaBoy

Saintsfanfl said:


> I don't think the difference between houses and timeshares is market visibility. Anyone seeking out a timeshare resale need only to type in a simple search and they will find plenty. The difference is everyone needs a place to live but nobody "needs" a timeshare. Nobody looks at the market because they aren't shopping. It takes a timeshare presentation for someone to be convinced that they need this thing. And then if resale is brought up they are lied to in order to stear them away.


Both are correct in my opinion:

1) Market visibility in my opinion is clearly a major factor--again, do not assume most people are like TUG members.  I am very knowledgeable and even for me the timeshare resale market is not highly visible.  Sure, you can look at EBay or Redweek, but these sources are very limited when compared to any MLS.  And there are no volume information readily available out there as far as I know.  How many times do we see postings even here on TUG where the poster is asking about market prices, and how many times is there a disagreement over the answer among those responding?

2) It is also true that everyone needs a place to live and they do not need a timeshare, so there are fewer people who look for timeshares on their own without a presentation to convince them.

On balance, I believe the lack of market visibility is the bigger factor but both are important.


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## BocaBoy

Saintsfanfl said:


> I don't think knowledge of the resale market would increase the prices all that much. Maybe a little but not much. The fact remains that most timeshare units are worthless. Even ones that have value take a special kind of person for it to be a wise purchase, even resale.


One major reason that resale prices are so low is that people are not aware that they can be purchased at low levels of cost.  With more market knowledge there is no question in my mind that Jim is right and prices would settle closer to some equilibrium level.


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## Saintsfanfl

BocaBoy said:


> Both are correct in my opinion:
> 
> 1) Market visibility in my opinion is clearly a major factor--again, do not assume most people are like TUG members.  I am very knowledgeable and even for me the timeshare resale market is not highly visible.  Sure, you can look at EBay or Redweek, but these sources are very limited when compared to any MLS.  And there are no volume information readily available out there as far as I know.  How many times do we see postings even here on TUG where the poster is asking about market prices, and how many times is there a disagreement over the answer among those responding?
> 
> 2) It is also true that everyone needs a place to live and they do not need a timeshare, so there are fewer people who look for timeshares on their own without a presentation to convince them.
> 
> On balance, I believe the lack of market visibility is the bigger factor but both are important.



That's a good point. I use to spend a lot of time searching. These days I have a few brokers that feed me resales so I barely look. I stopped looking at eBay and other sites. Sad to say I barely look at the marketplace. I probably miss out on opportunities but now it's not nearly as time consuming. 

I still think that most resale buyers are people that either already own or have a good level of timeshare knowledge. It's just not a high enough number of people to make a dent in the resale byproduct of the full freight market. 

The only thing I see helping is if they would take back units at a price that can keep a floor in the market but the problem is they are way too greedy.


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## BocaBoy

Saintsfanfl said:


> The only person that I personally know outside of tug that owns a timeshare of is an uncle that turned me onto Marriott.
> 
> P.S.S. I lied. I have another close friend that owns a timeshare. They bought it in gatlinburg after a presentation almost 15 years about. They financed it and have faithfully made every payment and annual fee. They have never once used or exchanged the timeshare.


I have actually been amazed at how many people I personally know who own timeshares.  Dozens of non-TUGGERs actually, and I never ask people so it only includes those who have mentioned it in casual conversation.  I suspect you also know timeshare owners but don't know they own timeshares.  And this makes sense when you see statistics like MVCI alone has 400,000 owners.  Clearly most of them have no connection at all to TUG.  In reality, TUG is just a drop in the bucket and cannot move the market much by its volume.


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## BocaBoy

Saintsfanfl said:


> I still think that most resale buyers are people that either already own or have a good level of timeshare knowledge. It's just not a high enough number of people to make a dent in the resale byproduct of the full freight market.....The only thing I see helping is if they would take back units at a price that can keep a floor in the market but the problem is they are way too greedy.


I agree with this 100%.


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## JIMinNC

Here's the full text of what Marriott Vacations Worldwide says in the Form 10-K about the resale market. They are required by law to enumerate the risk factors that could undermine their business. The 10-K lists 43 of these different "Risk Factors" and they are basically every possible thing that could negatively impact their business, regardless of how unlikely that event might be. If you read these things it makes every company sound like their whole business model is built on quicksand, but the idea is to give investors and idea of what the worst case risks are. Despite the hyperbole that is common in these risk factor statements, I think it is an accurate portrayal of the relationship between the developer market and the resale market.



> *The sale of vacation ownership interests in the secondary market by existing owners could cause our sales revenues and profits to decline. *
> 
> Existing owners have offered, and are expected to continue to offer, their vacation ownership interests for sale on the secondary market. The prices at which these interests are sold are typically less than the prices at which we would sell the interests. As a result, these sales create additional pricing pressure on our sale of vacation ownership products, which could cause our sales revenues and profits to decline. In addition, if the secondary market for vacation ownership interests becomes more organized and liquid than it currently is, the resulting availability of vacation ownership interests (particularly where the vacation ownership interests are available for sale at lower prices than the prices at which we would sell them) could adversely affect our sales and our sales revenues. Further, unlawful or deceptive third-party vacation ownership interest resale schemes involving interests in our resorts could damage our reputation and brand value and adversely impact our sales revenues.
> 
> Development of a viable secondary market may also cause the volume of vacation ownership interests inventory that we are able to repurchase to decline, which could adversely impact our development margin, as we utilize this lower cost inventory source to supplement our inventory needs and help manage our cost of vacation ownership products.


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## Saintsfanfl

BocaBoy said:


> One major reason that resale prices are so low is that people are not aware that they can be purchased at low levels of cost.  With more market knowledge there is no question in my mind that Jim is right and prices would settle closer to some equilibrium level.



If there was a resale market that everyone in the world knew about and it was organized and trustworthy, I think it would lead to a downfall in developer presentations rather than a huge increase in resale prices. If everyone attending a presentation knew the truth, most wouldn't buy. Even the OP probably wouldn't have completed his purchase if it wasn't for the junk fees. Developers would either get out of the business or they would see if they could find a way to put restrictions on resales. Marriott has their junk fees. Westgate threatens with worthless restricted windows. Not sure where it would lead but it would be a good thing. I don't think resale restrictions should be legal, including the junk fees. I'm guessing they covered their bases and they can do it legally but it doesn't seem right. Perhaps they saw the writing on the wall regarding this subject and that's why they switched to a points system and a trust.


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## Ty1on

funny that they don't mention that they may exercise ROFR at their discretion to mitigate this risk.


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## jeepie

Or, perhaps cynically, it is to inoculate themselves from shareholder litigation


JIMinNC said:


> the idea is to give investors and idea of what the worst case risks are.


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## GoldenVIKE

catharsis said:


> It is my assertion that the primary motivation and plan behind regular quarterly price increases is not to make more money (directly) from sales, but rather to create/re-inforce the impression that points are an asset which is appreciating.  All MVW personnel mention price increases as appreciation so it is reasonable to assume it may be part of corporate sales training.
> 
> The reason I believe this is unethical is that this strategy is followed despite MVW having full guaranteed 100% up-to-the-second visibility into the actual value of these points obtained through their ROFR waiver process meaning that it is impossible for a trade to legally be completed in these points wihout Marriott knowing about it.
> 
> In my opinion, Marriott are raising prices to create an impression of asset appreciation while being fully aware that the real value of the points continues to depreciate over time.



I agree. In our presentation they:
- referenced a pending price increase about 30 times as a reason to BUY BUY BUY NOW
- referred to the notion that while yes the resale value of points are less than what you pay for them, if you assume you can sell them for 60%, then the price has almost risen enough since 2010 for those original points buyers to be close to a point that they can get their money back in full just 7 years later
- referred to the fact that the 20% discount they're offering on points is the largest discount they've ever seen

It's like jewelry stores marking the prices up higher and higher just so they can advertise bigger and bigger sales--when really the prices are always about the same. 

Here's an interesting question. Does MVCI have to be nefarious like this?  If they were honest and just more focused on presenting the true value of the product, would they be just as successful?  Or do all TS developers have no choice but to be dishonest jacknozzles in order to sell their product?  They convinced me to buy after all. Granted they had to do a hybrid package to get my business. But even so, if they ramped up their ROFR activity and make hybrid packages more standard, would they checkmate the rest of the TS industry and be even more succcessful?


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## GoldenVIKE

jeepie said:


> Or, perhaps cynically, it is to inoculate themselves from shareholder litigation


Every 10-K from every publicly traded company has a section on risk factors. It's their duty to disclose all material risk factors. That's not unique to MVCI.


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## JIMinNC

Ty1on said:


> funny that they don't mention that they may exercise ROFR at their discretion to mitigate this risk.



They sorta do reference ROFR in this part of the quote:



> Development of a viable secondary market may also cause the volume of vacation ownership interests inventory *that we are able to repurchase* to decline, which could adversely impact our development margin, *as we utilize this lower cost inventory source to supplement our inventory needs and help manage our cost of vacation ownership products.*



But the "Risk Factors" section is just that - the risk factors - not how they propose to mitigate them. The law requires them to disclose every risk factor in the purest of sense, without any representation as to the likelihood of that event to occur, or to represent how they can mitigate those risks. Risk factors sections of 10-Ks are designed to present the plain, unvarnished risks, without other statements that would serve to bias or otherwise mitigate those risks. All 43 of the Risk Factors outlined in the 10-K are just that - statements of what the worst case scenario would be for the company, regardless of any mitigation that they do or might do.


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## JIMinNC

GoldenVIKE said:


> Here's an interesting question. Does MVCI have to be nefarious like this?  If they were honest and just more focused on presenting the true value of the product, would they be just as successful?  Or do all TS developers have no choice but to be dishonest jacknozzles in order to sell their product?  They convinced me to buy after all. Granted they had to do a hybrid package to get my business. But even so, if they ramped up their ROFR activity and make hybrid packages more standard, would they checkmate the rest of the TS industry and be even more succcessful?



It's sorta the way timeshare has always been done...it is a relatively expensive, discretionary purchase that most people don't think about until they attend a presentation to get a cheap vacation or some other incentive. The statement that timeshare is usually "sold not bought" is a true statement.

For many years, Marriott was probably one of the most soft sell developers in the business, but based on what I read here on TUG, even they have seemed to gravitate more toward the traditional approach than they had in the past. Having said that, they are still soft sell compared to the weasels at Diamond. We used to own in their system and avoided their presentations like the plague.

Even though TUGgers report more questionable tactics at Marriott presentations now, I haven't experienced them personally. I've been to four Marriott presentations - two during the old weeks days, back in 2000 in HHI and in 2001 or 2003 in Maui; and two since points were introduced, in Oct 2013 and June 2014 in HHI. I can say that in all four the sales reps were professional, it was low pressure, and there were no outright falsehoods that I can recall. In our first points-based presentation in Oct 2013, we took advantage of a cheap 3-night offer at the HHI Marriott hotel and went mainly to learn about points, since we had just started thinking about selling our Diamond week in Hawaii. We told them we had interest in their product, but we couldn't do anything until we decided what we were going to do with our Diamond week. We bought an Encore package to return to Barony, which we did in June 2014. Before returning on the Encore, I thoroughly researched the points product here on TUG. That's how I learned about the Hybrid packages and knew that would be the only thing we would buy, and would do that only if we could get the price per point below $7. We did, and we bought. Came home and immediately listed our Diamond week for sale with Timeshare Resales Hawaii, and within two - three months or so, had a contract to sell our unit. In both the 2013 and 2014 presentations, the sales rep was the same guy, and he was low pressure and seemed like a straight shooter. Yes, he used all the lines - prepaid vacations, the prices will go up soon if you don't buy today, etc., but those are not false statements. When we rapidly shifted the conversation to Hybrids, he quickly brought in his manager who presented the hybrid options. The first sales rep almost seemed surprised when we decided to buy the package.

We haven't decided if we're going to accept a presentation when we are back in HHI in mid-April. Right now my inclination is no, since we're going to spend one day while there with a Realtor to look at possible whole ownership options in HHI. Until we make the call on whether we're going to pursue that or not, I'm probably not going to seriously consider any more Marriott points or weeks. We do have a possible interest in an EOY Maui Ocean Club unit, and possibly trying to structure another hybrid around that to get us to Executive level, but that conversation can wait until we're back in HHI in September or maybe even 2018.


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## GoldenVIKE

JIMinNC said:


> It's sorta the way timeshare has always been done...it is a relatively expensive, discretionary purchase that most people don't think about until they attend a presentation to get a cheap vacation or some other incentive. The statement that timeshare is usually "sold not bought" is a true statement.
> 
> For many years, Marriott was probably one of the most soft sell developers in the business, but based on what I read here on TUG, even they have seemed to gravitate more toward the traditional approach than they had in the past. Having said that, they are still soft sell compared to the weasels at Diamond. We used to own in their system and avoided their presentations like the plague.
> 
> Even though TUGgers report more questionable tactics at Marriott presentations now, I haven't experienced them personally. I've been to four Marriott presentations - two during the old weeks days, back in 2000 in HHI and in 2001 or 2003 in Maui; and two since points were introduced, in Oct 2013 and June 2014 in HHI. I can say that in all four the sales reps were professional, it was low pressure, and there were no outright falsehoods that I can recall. In our first points-based presentation in Oct 2013, we took advantage of a cheap 3-night offer at the HHI Marriott hotel and went mainly to learn about points, since we had just started thinking about selling our Diamond week in Hawaii. We told them we had interest in their product, but we couldn't do anything until we decided what we were going to do with our Diamond week. We bought an Encore package to return to Barony, which we did in June 2014. Before returning on the Encore, I thoroughly researched the points product here on TUG. That's how I learned about the Hybrid packages and knew that would be the only thing we would buy, and would do that only if we could get the price per point below $7. We did, and we bought. Came home and immediately listed our Diamond week for sale with Timeshare Resales Hawaii, and within two - three months or so, had a contract to sell our unit. In both the 2013 and 2014 presentations, the sales rep was the same guy, and he was low pressure and seemed like a straight shooter. Yes, he used all the lines - prepaid vacations, the prices will go up soon if you don't buy today, etc., but those are not false statements. When we rapidly shifted the conversation to Hybrids, he quickly brought in his manager who presented the hybrid options. The first sales rep almost seemed surprised when we decided to buy the package.
> 
> We haven't decided if we're going to accept a presentation when we are back in HHI in mid-April. Right now my inclination is no, since we're going to spend one day while there with a Realtor to look at possible whole ownership options in HHI. Until we make the call on whether we're going to pursue that or not, I'm probably not going to seriously consider any more Marriott points or weeks. We do have a possible interest in an EOY Maui Ocean Club unit, and possibly trying to structure another hybrid around that to get us to Executive level, but that conversation can wait until we're back in HHI in September or maybe even 2018.



I'm actually really glad to hear this.  I wonder if your experience was a little better because you clearly knew the system and knew the exact things to say to cut straight through the BS to get at what you wanted.  Our understanding of the whole TS system (and the points system in particular) was pretty vague even though I had done as much research as I could.  I think they saw me as a mark to perhaps sell a higher-margin product.  Do you have a sense for why they don't sell more hybrid packages?  They're such better values.  Do they not have enough supply of enrolled resale weeks to offer them up front perhaps?


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## Quilter

Jason gave a tip about some vacation insurance a couple pages back.

I passed the information along to one of my friends who will be traveling shortly after baby #5.  He called for a quote.   Said it was only going to be about $150.   I asked him to let me know more details once he bought the package.

Thanks Jason.


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## JIMinNC

GoldenVIKE said:


> I'm actually really glad to hear this.  I wonder if your experience was a little better because you clearly knew the system and knew the exact things to say to cut straight through the BS to get at what you wanted.  Our understanding of the whole TS system (and the points system in particular) was pretty vague even though I had done as much research as I could.  I think they saw me as a mark to perhaps sell a higher-margin product.  Do you have a sense for why they don't sell more hybrid packages?  They're such better values.  Do they not have enough supply of enrolled resale weeks to offer them up front perhaps?



I think that may have been a factor. We let him know up front we knew what our parameters were, and dropped the name of TUG casually. I think it did help cut through the BS.

I think they don't sell more hybrids because the profit on the pure points is greater. If they had sold you 8000 points the old fashioned way, that would have cost you $80,000 to $90,000 depending on what the discount was offered. Your package was considerably less than that, so they made less money - they only sold 4000 points, plus their, I think, about 40% commission on the $10,000 resale unit (if the 40% is correct, that's about $4000). Had they sold you 4000 more points, they would have made a lot more than $4000 on that second batch of points.


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## SueDonJ

GoldenVIKE said:


> ... Here's an interesting question. Does MVCI have to be nefarious like this?  If they were honest and just more focused on presenting the true value of the product, would they be just as successful?  Or do all TS developers have no choice but to be dishonest jacknozzles in order to sell their product? ...



There are many one-off comments in these later posts with which I agree/disagree but this one sticks out.  I actually don't think Marriott is "nefarious" at all in their selling practices.  I've said it at least a thousand times over the years on TUG but it baffles me that we don't hold all buyers of direct-from-the-developer timeshare sales to the same standard warning as we would every other purchase of a big-ticket item, namely "Buyer Beware."  I've sat through Marriott timeshare presentations and purchased several directly from an informed, knowledgeable sales rep who was careful in making sure that we knew what we were buying.  Granted, she knew that we were knowledgeable, but one of the forms we were required to sign was a multi-item disclosure itemization that explicitly stated among other things the importance of reading the Public Offering Statement, and, our right to rescind.  Marriott doesn't make that disclosure statement available out of the goodness of their hearts - it's mandated by legislation and every buyer, armed with foreknowledge or not, walks out of a developer purchase with it in hand.

Yes, some Marriott sales reps put the best possible spin on ownership.  Yes, some even lie.  But none of them put the pen in our hands and manipulate our hands to effect our signatures.  If you count out the timeshare companies which engage in explicitly illegal sales activities, of which MVW is not one, the industry reputation suffers more from the unwillingness of buyers to avail themselves of bestowed protections than from the companies themselves.  It's not popular to say it but, there it is.  It's just mind-boggling to me!  With what other products that entail an ongoing financial commitment are we so willing to excuse self-inflicted ignorance on the part of those doing the buying?!


----------



## BocaBoy

GoldenVIKE said:


> Do you have a sense for why they don't sell more hybrid packages?  They're such better values.  Do they not have enough supply of enrolled resale weeks to offer them up front perhaps?


The weeks do not have to be enrolled weeks to be sold as part of a hybrid package.  In fact, weeks are automatically dis-enrolled when they are sold.  The buyer of a hybrid package can enroll (or re-enroll) the week he/she buys regardless of whether it has ever been enrolled before.  And a previously enrolled week can not be re-enrolled by the new buyer unless it is sold as part of a hybrid package.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

SueDonJ said:


> I agree/disagree but this one sticks out. I actually don't think Marriott is "nefarious" at all in their selling practices.



Yeah that word was probably too strong. I guess it comes down to transparency. To an uneducated or semi educated buyer they ("they" being potentially the entire TS industry?) appear pretty willing to stretch the truth, sugar coat, and sell less-than-optimal value deals to customers.  But by the same token that's capitalism and as long as a buyer and seller agree to a deal and there wasn't outright fraud, then all is fair and both parties are still better off after the deal otherwise they wouldn't have done it. I guess my point is that the lack of transparency in this industry may be part of the reason that more people don't own TS. If Marriott or anyone else decided to become an industry leader in transparency and liquidity of investment, perhaps there's a big opportunity to expand the market and take bigger market share, all the while being easier and less intimidating and frustrating to deal with for customers and potential customers


----------



## Beefnot

SueDonJ said:


> There are many one-off comments in these later posts with which I agree/disagree but this one sticks out.  I actually don't think Marriott is "nefarious" at all in their selling practices.  I've said it at least a thousand times over the years on TUG but it baffles me that we don't hold all buyers of direct-from-the-developer timeshare sales to the same standard warning as we would every other purchase of a big-ticket item, namely "Buyer Beware."  I've sat through Marriott timeshare presentations and purchased several directly from an informed, knowledgeable sales rep who was careful in making sure that we knew what we were buying.  Granted, she knew that we were knowledgeable, but one of the forms we were required to sign was a multi-item disclosure itemization that explicitly stated among other things the importance of reading the Public Offering Statement, and, our right to rescind.  Marriott doesn't make that disclosure statement available out of the goodness of their hearts - it's mandated by legislation and every buyer, armed with foreknowledge or not, walks out of a developer purchase with it in hand.
> 
> Yes, some Marriott sales reps put the best possible spin on ownership.  Yes, some even lie.  But none of them put the pen in our hands and manipulate our hands to effect our signatures.  If you count out the timeshare companies which engage in explicitly illegal sales activities, of which MVW is not one, the industry reputation suffers more from the unwillingness of buyers to avail themselves of bestowed protections than from the companies themselves.  It's not popular to say it but, there it is.  It's just mind-boggling to me!  With what other products that entail an ongoing financial commitment are we so willing to excuse self-inflicted ignorance on the part of those doing the buying?!



This is a bunch of pro-Marriott pablum fluff, unless you swap in "Westgate" or "DRI" instead of Marriott and still happily stand by the statement. Perhaps Marriott is not as bad as some of the other guys, but hard or deceptive sales tactics are not to be excused even if one considers the product desirable.


----------



## Marathoner

GoldenVIKE said:


> If Marriott or anyone else decided to become an industry leader in transparency and liquidity of investment, perhaps there's a big opportunity to expand the market and take bigger market share, all the while being easier and less intimidating and frustrating to deal with for customers and potential customers



Established industry participants like Marriott will not do something that will dramatically increase market transparency because doing so has the potential to kill their golden goose.  This type of asymmetric thinking has to come from a new market participant.  But the timeshare industry is not glamorous and we have not yet seen a new creative player who has tried this yet.  Until then, we will have a small group of informed timeshare owners who use this lack of information transparency to significantly maximize their resale timeshare holdings and experiences as many on TUG do.  The vast majority will have only themselves to blame, as SueDonJ points out, for not educating themselves and understanding what they were getting into. As always, caveat emptor.


----------



## davidvel

GoldenVIKE said:


> Here's an interesting question. Does MVCI have to be nefarious like this?  If they were honest and just more focused on presenting the true value of the product, would they be just as successful?  Or do all TS developers have no choice but to be dishonest jacknozzles in order to sell their product?


Yes. No. Generally, yes.


----------



## BocaBoy

Marathoner said:


> Established industry participants like Marriott will not do something that will dramatically increase market transparency because doing so has the potential to kill their golden goose.  This type of asymmetric thinking has to come from a new market participant.


Oh, the naivete of a youngster.  Those of us who remember the mid-1980's know that Marriott did just this when they entered the timeshare business with a fresh new approach and did a lot to clean things up.


Beefnot said:


> This is a bunch of pro-Marriott pablum fluff, unless you swap in "Westgate" or "DRI" instead of Marriott and still happily stand by the statement. Perhaps Marriott is not as bad as some of the other guys, but hard or deceptive sales tactics are not to be excused even if one considers the product desirable.


"Perhaps Marriott is not as bad as some of the other guys?"  Really?  "Perhaps?"  I was around in the mid-1980's when Marriott entered the industry with a fresh new approach.  Not only floating time which they helped pioneer, but more importantly with a more honest and soft sell approach.  I will be the first to admit that the approach has regressed a bit since they started selling a fungible product (DC points), but if you have been recently to a second or third tier company's sales presentations, you quickly realize that there is still no comparison.


----------



## Luckybee

echino said:


> About "villas". This is our villa - real one, not the "villa" in timeshare speak. With private pool etc. It's on Lombok in October 2016. Traveled there in JAL first class with my wife by using AA miles acquired for ~$0.01 each. Relaxed at the villa after climbing Rinjani. Fabulous beach and food. Paid about ~$100 per night. You cannot get it with a timeshare. If I owned a timeshare, I would never get to experience it.
> 
> View attachment 3334



Marriott timeshares are not perfect and are not luxury in the "true" sense of the word. That said you're getting silly. It appears that you seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that when one owns timeshares they are excluded from all other holidays. Dh and I own 2 weeks at the Marriott OC in Aruba. We didn't make it down there this past Nov so we traded for St Thomas and St Maarten this coming May. To that we've added and we're going back to Anguilla, (now the 4 seasons ...was the Viceroy when we went last time...had a beachfront villa with private pool and butler service, and Coral Beach villas on SXM) . Perhaps I missed the part where these were places that we aren't supposed to go because we own a timeshare!??! Let me know because we've obviously been doing this all wrong including but not limited to our trips to the South Pacific, Australia, Europe etc.


----------



## dagger1

echino said:


> About "villas". This is our villa - real one, not the "villa" in timeshare speak. With private pool etc. It's on Lombok in October 2016. Traveled there in JAL first class with my wife by using AA miles acquired for ~$0.01 each. Relaxed at the villa after climbing Rinjani. Fabulous beach and food. Paid about ~$100 per night. You cannot get it with a timeshare. If I owned a timeshare, I would never get to experience it.
> 
> View attachment 3334


Timeshare ownership does not exclude other vacation options.  We own timeshare points for certain family travel, and are members of Inspirato for other family travel...  Must say, the villa pictured doesn't come close to Inspirato quality....


----------



## m61376

Busy for a few days and see what I missed ....
I wanted to welcome the OP to Tug, and hope he's not turned off by all the opinions around here. While I respect his desire to just book and go, I'm guessing at this point he's gleaned it's not quite as easy as that, and the fact that he's spent so much time on this thread lends me to believe there's a good chance he'll become as obsessed with planning as many of us here are, and will likely spend far more time than he anticipated. 
That said, I agree with a lot of what's been said here. Sometimes we get so caught up in gaming the system, so to speak, that we forget that we're not representative of the real world, and that most people don't want to spend the effort, even if they have the know how. Moreover, there is a real discomfort level with renting from strangers, and I can appreciate that. Many people don't want to be tied down a year in advance; the flexibility of changing reservations that Greg often uses I think is a big draw, as is the flexibility of not being toed to a 7 day week, with set arrival and departure days. So there's a lot of good reasons why the DC program works better for many people, despite the added cost. Just loo at VAC stock - if prospective buyers didn't like and prefer the model, the stock wouldn't be doing as well as it is.

I congratulate the OP for finding this while his family is young. I wish we had, rather than our "kids" already being in their twenties. It wouldn't have precluded us from taking all the other travel we did in years past, but I'm guessing we would have been more selective and likely frequently enjoyed family timeshare stays. While seeing different places and, especially overseas travel, might be easier with the traditional hotel or cruise vacation, timeshares offer some real intangibles. There's a lot to be said about having the space, and the convenience of starting off the day relaxed, at everyone's own pace, and not having to start by figuring out where to go eat breakfast. More importantly for us, it made travel with family so much easier. Over the years we habitually travelled with three generations, and timeshares made that just so much easier as parents aged and activity levels had to be somewhat adjusted. Amazingly, we even managed to get in one four generation trip. Sadly, while life changes have shifted things a bit, we now find ourselves the grandparents, with our kids now in their thirties. I can unequivocally say there is NOTHING like traveling with grandchildren, even as nice as vacationing with children was for all those years. And there's nothing like having your grandchild look forward to an annual trip, or having a six year old write a book about it. That's truly priceless, as are so many other memories that we've all been so very, very lucky to have. 

Reading through all the threads discussing dollar and cents valuations, everyone seemed to have left out something that many of us used to talk about. We all tend to get busy with day to day things, and many times either planning or paying for a vacation takes a back seat to other responsibilities and other expenses. There's something to be said for the annual "obligation," and knowing that either you use it or you lose it. The time is paid for and the MF's have to be paid anyway, so you don't debate whether to spend the money- or the time- taking a trip. There's a lot to be said for the fact that most of us probably travel more- and some a lot more- than we otherwise would. And that it's wonderfully conducive to sharing vacations, whether with parents, siblings, or friends. 

Almost ten years ago we booked a family vacation to celebrate my parent's 60th, planning it for a month after their anniversary during our daughter's intersession. Because we owned and because it was relatively cheap, I grabbed a getaway to Cancun and my husband and I took my parents on an extra celebration shortly before their anniversary. With large educational expenses, it is unlikely that we would have booked the second celebration if we hadn't been able to do it so relatively inexpensively. Sadly, we lost my Dad a few weeks after their anniversary, and never got to take the original planned trip. Needless to say, that what was intended as an extra vacation created cherished and priceless memories. I'm sure many of us here can think of precious moments that likely would not have been had they not been owners, which explains why many of us don't need to justify ownership with a balanced spreadsheet. We bought resale, but at a time when the prices were still high. I can honestly say that despite prices having plummeted the following year with the recession, I have never looked back and wish I had waited. Money can't buy memories....


----------



## JIMinNC

m61376 said:


> Busy for a few days and see what I missed ....
> I wanted to welcome the OP to Tug, and hope he's not turned off by all the opinions around here. While I respect his desire to just book and go, I'm guessing at this point he's gleaned it's not quite as easy as that, and the fact that he's spent so much time on this thread lends me to believe there's a good chance he'll become as obsessed with planning as many of us here are, and will likely spend far more time than he anticipated.
> That said, I agree with a lot of what's been said here. Sometimes we get so caught up in gaming the system, so to speak, that we forget that we're not representative of the real world, and that most people don't want to spend the effort, even if they have the know how. Moreover, there is a real discomfort level with renting from strangers, and I can appreciate that. Many people don't want to be tied down a year in advance; the flexibility of changing reservations that Greg often uses I think is a big draw, as is the flexibility of not being toed to a 7 day week, with set arrival and departure days. So there's a lot of good reasons why the DC program works better for many people, despite the added cost. Just loo at VAC stock - if prospective buyers didn't like and prefer the model, the stock wouldn't be doing as well as it is.
> 
> I congratulate the OP for finding this while his family is young. I wish we had, rather than our "kids" already being in their twenties. It wouldn't have precluded us from taking all the other travel we did in years past, but I'm guessing we would have been more selective and likely frequently enjoyed family timeshare stays. While seeing different places and, especially overseas travel, might be easier with the traditional hotel or cruise vacation, timeshares offer some real intangibles. There's a lot to be said about having the space, and the convenience of starting off the day relaxed, at everyone's own pace, and not having to start by figuring out where to go eat breakfast. More importantly for us, it made travel with family so much easier. Over the years we habitually travelled with three generations, and timeshares made that just so much easier as parents aged and activity levels had to be somewhat adjusted. Amazingly, we even managed to get in one four generation trip. Sadly, while life changes have shifted things a bit, we now find ourselves the grandparents, with our kids now in their thirties. I can unequivocally say there is NOTHING like traveling with grandchildren, even as nice as vacationing with children was for all those years. And there's nothing like having your grandchild look forward to an annual trip, or having a six year old write a book about it. That's truly priceless, as are so many other memories that we've all been so very, very lucky to have.
> 
> Reading through all the threads discussing dollar and cents valuations, everyone seemed to have left out something that many of us used to talk about. We all tend to get busy with day to day things, and many times either planning or paying for a vacation takes a back seat to other responsibilities and other expenses. There's something to be said for the annual "obligation," and knowing that either you use it or you lose it. The time is paid for and the MF's have to be paid anyway, so you don't debate whether to spend the money- or the time- taking a trip. There's a lot to be said for the fact that most of us probably travel more- and some a lot more- than we otherwise would. And that it's wonderfully conducive to sharing vacations, whether with parents, siblings, or friends.
> 
> Almost ten years ago we booked a family vacation to celebrate my parent's 60th, planning it for a month after their anniversary during our daughter's intersession. Because we owned and because it was relatively cheap, I grabbed a getaway to Cancun and my husband and I took my parents on an extra celebration shortly before their anniversary. With large educational expenses, it is unlikely that we would have booked the second celebration if we hadn't been able to do it so relatively inexpensively. Sadly, we lost my Dad a few weeks after their anniversary, and never got to take the original planned trip. Needless to say, that what was intended as an extra vacation created cherished and priceless memories. I'm sure many of us here can think of precious moments that likely would not have been had they not been owners, which explains why many of us don't need to justify ownership with a balanced spreadsheet. We bought resale, but at a time when the prices were still high. I can honestly say that despite prices having plummeted the following year with the recession, I have never looked back and wish I had waited. Money can't buy memories....



Can I like this three or four times? GREAT post!!


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## GoldenVIKE

m61376 said:


> And that it's wonderfully conducive to sharing vacations, whether with parents, siblings, or friends.



Yes this was a big reason we did TS. Having relatively set access to 2-3bd units with livings rooms and kitchens makes traveling with other friends and family far more comfortable, and the fact that it's owned makes it a lot less awkward than if we didn't own. Saying, "come join us at our timeshare" is 180 degrees apart from saying, "come travel with us and we'll pay for your lodging" on the awkwardness scale, even if there's really not much difference!


----------



## SueDonJ

~~~ Several unrelated posts have been moved to this thread in the TUG Lounge:  Who pays for the room and meals? [Posts moved.] ~~~


----------



## m61376

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> Would you expect the non-family guest to reimburse you if they stayed with you? What is the protocol?
> 
> Personally, I like my privacy and would not want another family staying with us in our unit.  On the other hand, if somebody wanted to travel with us and I could arrange a unit for them, I'd have no issue doing that so long as they, at a minimum, covered the value of the points used for that period (number of points multiplied by maintenance fee).


I think there is a variety of differing opinions on this. Personally, I feel like we've already paid whether or not someone joins us. If we choose to enjoy the company of friends rather than locking off and depositing it is our choice, and our vacations are the richer because we've gotten to spend quality time with people we care about. We don't have a big family, but are blessed to have friends who are "chosen family." We'll let them share in the cost of incidentals if they insist (like splitting the cost of a car rental, for ex.), and split restaurant bills, etc. Friends are usually insistent on taking us out, but if they are my hubbie won't let them grab more than one check.
A few years back we were going with family and I had an extra unit that I had traded for, hoping that our daughter could make it. When they couldn't I invited friends, who had always wanted to go to Aruba. She was losing a battle with cancer at the time. As luck would have it, a very generous Tugger who I don't want to embarrass so will leave unnamed had to cancel his plans for the same week, and offered me another unit for just the II guest fee, so I was able to have another mutual friend join us. My friend lost her battle with cancer eight long months later, but the 7 of us (my Mom fortunately was with us too) had an amazing time and, yes, priceless memories. These are the intangibles that money can't buy.


----------



## StevenTing

I finally got through reading this thread after avoiding it as long as I can.  I wanted to respond but I was only part way through.  After going through it all, everything has pretty much been addressed from both sides.

This was essentially information overload.  

GoldenVike, if you have questions about VPE, feel free to send me a PM.


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## ArubaMon

Echoing what StevenTing wrote.  GoldenVike, I hope your family's experience with MVCI is as good as ours.  The properties are great, the space of a two or three bedroom unit makes a multiple day vacation much more enjoyable, and as long as you plan ahead, you will have some wonderful options.  It's not a great investment in the classic sense of the word, but I view the premium we paid by going the conventional route to be worth it for the added flexibility and convenience.  I don't have much time to look for the absolute best price on my vacation stays either (although I do watch this site to improve on my techniques!), and there is a price for that.  We've owned for about 20 years and have had some wonderful experiences and memories, and I've never second guessed myself.


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## TXTortoise

Sue, I don't know where it would fit, but this thread belongs somewhere in the FAQ, sticky or whatever.  For anyone willing to invest the time, it's probably the best thread for most anyone, particularly newbies to digest.  It got me to re-join Tug. ;-)


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## GoldenVIKE

Hi all, I'm back on TUG for the first time in 2 years for selfish reasons again (seeking more advice about increasing ownership in another thread!) but I thought I'd check back here and just give a few updates.

- Since joining MVCI we've took trips to Marco Island (property is just ok but I have a cousin that lives there so it was a good trip), Newport Beach (pretty great), Ko Olina (awesome), and Ritz St Thomas (awesome too, and the island is good to go so highly recommend coming down).  We also have trips coming up to Hilton Head (SurfWatch)-April/May, Tahoe (Timber Lodge)-August, Ritz Vail-February 2020, and then planning to use our Ocean Pointe week after that likely April/May 2020.
- We really couldn't be much happier with the MVCI points system.  Mostly it's about the ease, flexibility, and units.  It's so hard to find 2-bed/3-bed units through normal hotels.  I travel a lot for work so have over a million Hilton and Marriott hotel points, but have a really hard time using those for family travel.  Even on the rare occasion you can finagle your way into a presidential suite or something, you typically don't have 3 bedrooms and a full kitchen.
- The financial part of this makes sense for us too.  For the heck of it I've kept track of what each of our MVCI trips would have cost on the interwebs, and on average our trips would cost about $1.40 per DC point.  A couple of our trips avoided one of the weekend nights, e.g. a Sunday-Saturday trip, which helps with that calculation.

Thanks to SueDonJ, Saintsfanfl, JiminNC, Quilter, and everyone else that provided such great advice to us 2 years ago!  Offer still stands on drinks in case we cross paths!


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## TXTortoise

For newbies that might not know, the original thread of GVs entry into the Marriott system ought to be required reading for everyone.  I'll re-post link when I find it, not sure it's in the FAQ.


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## JIMinNC

I think this IS that thread. Note it's 22 pages, starting Feb 2017.


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## TXTortoise

I just noticed. ;-)


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## GRCTahoe

I have read some of your 2017 thread in the beginning with 4k points now 8k you seem pretty happy and very much into the math like me. 
I also noted many people suggested the Hybrid deeded week option. 
My hybrid package gives me nearly 30k points and I am able to rent part of my points to cover all my MF's so I can travel on 16k for FREE. You recoup all your upfront cost very fast this way. even faster with lower MF's. To me the best of all worlds. With a hybrid the MF are only 30 cents per point vs .58 cents, and the total cost per point under $3.50.


----------



## TXTortoise

GRCTahoe said:


> I have read some of your 2017 thread in the beginning with 4k points now 8k you seem pretty happy and very much into the math like me.
> I also noted many people suggested the Hybrid deeded week option.
> My hybrid package gives me nearly 30k points and I am able to rent part of my points to cover all my MF's so I can travel on 16k for FREE. You recoup all your upfront cost very fast this way. even faster with lower MF's. To me the best of all worlds. With a hybrid the MF are only 30 cents per point vs .58 cents, and the total cost per point under $3.50.



If I'd known what I was ultimately going to spend on Maui fixed winter weeks, something like what you are doing would make more since...though I'd still have to make the AM calls to reserve my weeks.


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## Fasttr

Just saw that the OP GoldenVIKE now has approx. 40,000 available points (via a VPE point rental listing), so once he got in the game, he apparently got in big time.  GoldenVIKE, if you are still active on TUG, how about an update of how you ended up with all of those points.


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## PressureCooker

Wow.. such a great thread. So much great information... thanks to all that contributed!


----------



## GoldenVIKE

Fasttr said:


> Just saw that the OP GoldenVIKE now has approx. 40,000 available points (via a VPE point rental listing), so once he got in the game, he apparently got in big time.  GoldenVIKE, if you are still active on TUG, how about an update of how you ended up with all of those points.



As our second purchase, we ended up doing something similar to what GRCTahoe was describing.  We purchased a hybrid that ended up being around 30,000 electable points for $3.77/pt and average $0.22 annual MFs.  With what we originally purchased that gives us close to 40,000 total points now.  That's more than we can use until we retire (another 20 years probably!) but renting out excess points on www.vacationpointexchange.com, www.ownertrades.com, and TUG has been pretty easy.

Arguably had I known about this second type of package initially, I would have just done that and not bought the original hybrid package (4000 DC points + enrolled week = 7850 points for $6.81/pt plus $0.49 annual MFs)... but doing that type of thing as a first purchase is probably not realistic given it's over $100k up front, and I'm not sure if MVCI would even agree to do that for someone that hasn't established a baseline first.  (Good question for their SLC sales office)  As it is, we're likely going to sell our 4000 DC points back and take a loss of around $20k on that piece of it

Knowing what I know now, here'd be my advice to new MVCI buyers:

For people that want to spend < $40k, and stay at the same handful of place(s): buy resale weeks and use II to trade if needed.
For people that want to spend < $40k and stay at many different places: buy resale points
For people that want to spend > $40k and stay at many different places: buy hybrid package from MVCI
For people willing to spend > $100k, stay different places, travel like a fiend, and justify ROI: call SLC office and inquire about the kind of thing GRCTahoe and I are describing.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

And just to add to above, there are certainly other legit strategies of using MCVI too, which other posters have mentioned, like:

buy as few points as possible (like 1,000) and then just rent out more points from those points rental sites I mentioned
don't buy anything at all, and just rent off of redweek.com or similar sites
if you have lots of Marriott hotel points, just book MVC properties with those points and don't buy into MVCI
All of these things have pros and cons when it comes to things like booking windows, ability to get in-demand resorts/times/units/views, cost commitment up front, cost commitment in annual dues, how much time and effort is needed to manage system, and how much flexibility to you have in choosing specific data and knowing well in advance when you'll be traveling.

All that said, I don't really see too many scenarios where buying as straight DC points package direct from MVCI is the BEST option for anyone.


----------



## chemteach

GoldenVIKE said:


> As our second purchase, we ended up doing something similar to what GRCTahoe was describing.  We purchased a hybrid that ended up being around 30,000 electable points for $3.77/pt and average $0.22 annual MFs.


Looking through the maintenance fees/points for deeded weeks, I could only see 1 or 2 places with $0.22/point.  Did you buy only platinum plus week deeds?


----------



## GoldenVIKE

chemteach said:


> Looking through the maintenance fees/points for deeded weeks, I could only see 1 or 2 places with $0.22/point.  Did you buy only platinum plus week deeds?



Exactly--in addition to platinum plus type weeks, some of the fractionals at Grand Residence Club in Tahoe have very low MFs.  There are a couple of timeshare resale brokers in the Lake Tahoe area that list a number of these deeds for resale if you're looking for some examples.  Our package was a fractional at GRC and a week 52 at St Kitts.


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## JGo80

We just bought a similar hybrid deal 3,000 points plus a week at Ocean Pointe that converts to 4325 points for $6.81 a point MF feed approx .48 point.

I just read through this thread and other threads and it helped confirm our decision to buy this way particularly since the resale points are approximately the same priced per point. 

For the enrolled week I was wondering what the potential downsides are?  Here’s my list. 
1. Exposed to more risk from potential MF increases since its isolated to one property rather than the entire trusts. 
2. Potentially different inventory. 
3. Unable to resale to another person and keep the enrolled option. 

Anything else that I’m missing as potential negatives. 

Also a big thank you to Goldenvike and others who contributed to this thread. It should be a must read for any person consider seeing ownership.


----------



## GoldenVIKE

JGo80 said:


> We just bought a similar hybrid deal 3,000 points plus a week at Ocean Pointe that converts to 4325 points for $6.81 a point MF feed approx .48 point.
> 
> I just read through this thread and other threads and it helped confirm our decision to buy this way particularly since the resale points are approximately the same priced per point.
> 
> For the enrolled week I was wondering what the potential downsides are?  Here’s my list.
> 1. Exposed to more risk from potential MF increases since its isolated to one property rather than the entire trusts.
> 2. Potentially different inventory.
> 3. Unable to resale to another person and keep the enrolled option.
> 
> Anything else that I’m missing as potential negatives.
> 
> Also a big thank you to Goldenvike and others who contributed to this thread. It should be a must read for any person consider seeing ownership.



This is awesome to see other new owners getting benefit from this thread!  The MVCI salespeople have a monopoly on information vs. their marks (i mean customers) so if this helps some of those customers be more educated and get better deals, then that's great!  As to the risks:

1. agree in concept but the trust MFs are so high, this seems a pretty low overall risk.
2. not sure what you mean by this.  when you convert an enrolled week to points, those points work exactly as DC trust points would work.
3. i don't think resale value should ever be factored in when buying a TS (just assume $0)

The only other major drawback i see of an enrolled week vs. trust points is potential exposure to property losses (special assessments) that are more pronouced for individual resort ownership and more diluted for trust ownership. 

All that said, I'd guess you probably paid $3-5/pt plus $0.30-$0.40 MFs for the deeded week at OP, so even if some of these risks are legit, they're more than offset by the up front and perpetual MF savings that you get.

Nice job that's a great deal!  And also noteworthy they sold an enrolled week worth more than the points you bought.  In the past, they've sometimes stuck to a rule that you can only buy an enrolled week worth UP TO as many DC points that you bought.


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## GoldenVIKE

clarification: property losses = fires, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc - so most relevant to places on major EQ faults and in FL, St Thomas, St Kitts, etc.


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## JIMinNC

GoldenVIKE said:


> Nice job that's a great deal!  And also noteworthy they sold an enrolled week worth more than the points you bought.  In the past, they've sometimes stuck to a rule that you can only buy an enrolled week worth UP TO as many DC points that you bought.



My understanding (not personally confirmed) has always been that the "matching points" rule for the enrolled weeks bought from Marriott Resales was capped at 3000. So If the resale week you are buying is worth 2500 points you have to buy at least 2500. But if the week is worth 4000 you only have to buy 3000. JGo80's post would seem to confirm that 3000 Trust points is the max requirement.


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## GoldenVIKE

doh, i wish i'd have known that when we bought our 4000 points + 3850 enrolled hybrid in 2017.  our salespeople definitely suggested we cant buy an enrolled week worth more than 4000 points at the time, but it's very possible that they just _forgot to tell the truth_.


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## csalter2

JIMinNC said:


> My understanding (not personally confirmed) has always been that the "matching points" rule for the enrolled weeks bought from Marriott Resales was capped at 3000. So If the resale week you are buying is worth 2500 points you have to buy at least 2500. But if the week is worth 4000 you only have to buy 3000. JGo80's post would seem to confirm that 3000 Trust points is the max requirement.



It all depends on what Marriott is willing to do at the time to make the sale. When I began negotiating with Marriott during my Hybrid weeks purchase (Aruba week instead of 3000 points) they told me my resale week that I chose would have to be equal to or less than the points of my Aruba week. A week or two later after I was still on the fence about the purchase, I was told that I could select ANY resale week. I went to sticky here on TUG and looked at what the point value was for every week on the list and outside of Hawaii which had the higher maintenance fees and Crystal Shores, Ocean Pointe had the highest points election for a 2 bedroom platinum at 5375 DC points.  This was a deal because maintenance fees for Ocean Pointe are .32 per point this year Ocean Pointe 2 bedroom OF as opposed to .58 per point DC points.

The OP paid under $7 per point which is good. Resale would be $4 per point plus add on Marriott’s junk fee of $3 and it would have been $7


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## JGo80

I was told it was a special offer that they were allowing to exceed the cap of points. I may have been able to buy less points with the hybrid deal but didn’t press after I was offered this deal. We basically told them that if we can’t make a purchase for around $7 a point we weren’t interested. I wish we would have had started in the beginning here, we would have had more time to peruse the list of available weeks. This one seemed to have the best point value and MF’s front m the ones on the list.


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## Quilter

csalter2 said:


> It all depends on what Marriott is willing to do at the time to make the sale. When I began negotiating with Marriott during my Hybrid weeks purchase (Aruba week instead of 3000 points) they told me my resale week that I chose would have to be equal to or less than the points of my Aruba week. A week or two later after I was still on the fence about the purchase, I was told that I could select ANY resale week. I went to sticky here on TUG and looked at what the point value was for every week on the list and outside of Hawaii which had the higher maintenance fees and Crystal Shores, Ocean Pointe had the highest points election for a 2 bedroom platinum at 5375 DC points.  This was a deal because maintenance fees for Ocean Pointe are .35 per pointe this year Ocean Pointe 2 bedroom as opposed to .58 per point DC points.
> 
> The OP paid under $7 per point which is good. Resale would be $4 per point plus add on Marriott’s junk fee of $3 and it would have been $7



Minor clarification . . .

It's 5375 DC points for a 2 bedroom Oceanfront.   M/f's for 2020 are $1735.16, making it $.3228 per DC point.   The oceanside is only 4325 DC points.   Same m/f so each DC point is $.40119. 

It's hard to give up those oceanfronts for DC points.


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## csalter2

Quilter said:


> Minor clarification . . .
> 
> It's 5375 DC points for a 2 bedroom Oceanfront.   M/f's for 2020 are $1735.16, making it $.3228 per DC point.   The oceanside is only 4325 DC points.   Same m/f so each DC point is $.40119.
> 
> It's hard to give up those oceanfronts for DC points.



Thank you for pointing out that maintenance fee error. I corrected it in my post.  I used the 2018 maintenance fee instead of the 2019 (not 2020) reduced maintenance fee. I am used to that number going up and not down. .

I am okay with giving up an ocean front if I can receive one. I will be ocean front at Oceanwatch next summer and I am 700 DC points ahead. I can extend my stay there.


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## SabresFan

Marathoner said:


> Established industry participants like Marriott will not do something that will dramatically increase market transparency because doing so has the potential to kill their golden goose.  This type of asymmetric thinking has to come from a new market participant.  But the timeshare industry is not glamorous and we have not yet seen a new creative player who has tried this yet.  Until then, we will have a small group of informed timeshare owners who use this lack of information transparency to significantly maximize their resale timeshare holdings and experiences as many on TUG do.  The vast majority will have only themselves to blame, as SueDonJ points out, for not educating themselves and understanding what they were getting into. As always, caveat emptor.



Lack of transparency is absolutely key to their sales approach.  I just recently went down for a sales presentation on an offer of 3 nights for $199 if we sit through the presentation.  Before going down, I asked was there any literature or anything I could look at before coming down, things like how many points to reserve this week at this resort.  Nope, your sales rep will go through that at the time of the presentation.  But I'm a person that likes to do a lot of research - I'm much more likely to buy if I think I thoroughly understand the product.  Nope, we just don't have anything like that.
So during the presentation I asked, do you have a book that I can look at to show how many points for this week at this resort.  No, we don't have any of those here.  Apparently didn't have it in PDF either, or they didn't volunteer it.
I'm sure part of the thought process is if there are lots of details, the potential buyer will be confused and overwhelmed and end up leaving without buying.  And somebody like me that wouldn't have been confused probably wouldn't end up buying any way.
I probably could have done more research before attending, but I think that even the resale market for Marriott is too expensive, so justifying a developer purchase would have been nearly impossible.  So I didn't know off the top of my head how many points it would take to book a week in Orlando for a 2 BR during regular summer season (not independence day).  (It's 2450 points at the cheapest Marriott resort in Orlando, one of the Royal Palms or Imperial Palms family).  The salesman told me I could book Cypress Harbour for a week for about 1000 points.  Actually, I'm pretty sure I can't. If I'm reading the chart correctly, it takes 1750 points for the lowest cost week, which would be the period 5/3 through 6/6 or 12/6 through 12/19.


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## JIMinNC

SabresFan said:


> but I think that even the resale market for Marriott is too expensive,



I guess it depends on what you compare it to. If you compare it to other large hotel/brand-affiliated programs like HGVC, DVC, Westin, Sheraton, Hyatt, etc. , Marriott Vacation Club resales are priced in the same ballpark. Yes, they are more expensive than many of the other non-branded timeshares out there, many of which can be acquired for free, but there is value in the brand on the sign for many folks, and the upside is when you own these branded properties, when you want to sell, there will probably still be value there for potential buyers.


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## CPNY

SabresFan said:


> Lack of transparency is absolutely key to their sales approach.  I just recently went down for a sales presentation on an offer of 3 nights for $199 if we sit through the presentation.  Before going down, I asked was there any literature or anything I could look at before coming down, things like how many points to reserve this week at this resort.  Nope, your sales rep will go through that at the time of the presentation.  But I'm a person that likes to do a lot of research - I'm much more likely to buy if I think I thoroughly understand the product.  Nope, we just don't have anything like that.
> So during the presentation I asked, do you have a book that I can look at to show how many points for this week at this resort.  No, we don't have any of those here.  Apparently didn't have it in PDF either, or they didn't volunteer it.
> I'm sure part of the thought process is if there are lots of details, the potential buyer will be confused and overwhelmed and end up leaving without buying.  And somebody like me that wouldn't have been confused probably wouldn't end up buying any way.
> I probably could have done more research before attending, but I think that even the resale market for Marriott is too expensive, so justifying a developer purchase would have been nearly impossible.  So I didn't know off the top of my head how many points it would take to book a week in Orlando for a 2 BR during regular summer season (not independence day).  (It's 2450 points at the cheapest Marriott resort in Orlando, one of the Royal Palms or Imperial Palms family).  The salesman told me I could book Cypress Harbour for a week for about 1000 points.  Actually, I'm pretty sure I can't. If I'm reading the chart correctly, it takes 1750 points for the lowest cost week, which would be the period 5/3 through 6/6 or 12/6 through 12/19.


Yes the resale market for Marriott is higher. Especially in regards to DC points. There are other options to buying into a program besides MVC. I own Vistana in mandatory resort so I get the ability to use star options to book in Vistana network. Also that comes with interval membership and I just booked a 2 bedroom in MVC grand vista prime week getaway for 375 bucks this week through interval. You don’t need to own MVC to get into MVC especially in Orlando! Interval getaways is cheaper than annual fees on points and you can pretty much always count on Orlando availability. If you wanted only Orlando, I’d suggest looking into DVC. Everyone loves their DVC membership.


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## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> Yes the resale market for Marriott is higher. Especially in regards to DC points. There are other options to buying into a program besides MVC. I own Vistana in mandatory resort so I get the ability to use star options to book in Vistana network. Also that comes with interval membership and I just booked a 2 bedroom in MVC grand vista prime week getaway for 375 bucks this week through interval. You don’t need to own MVC to get into MVC especially in Orlando! Interval getaways is cheaper than annual fees on points and you can pretty much always count on Orlando availability. If you wanted only Orlando, I’d suggest looking into DVC. Everyone loves their DVC membership.



Valid point about Orlando. I wasn't sure if SabresFan was interested in going to Orlando or was just using that as an example. No need to spend a lot of money if all you want to do is go to Orlando. Even the quality places are easy to get there. We own HGVC in Orlando, but only because in HGVC points are points and home resort priority desert mean as much as in other systems - so we bought where we could get into HGVC at the best price. No need or plans to go to Orlando any time soon. We did the annual Disney thing when the kids were young - been there, done that, got the mouse ears. Never again - unless we have grandkids some day before we get too old.


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## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> Valid point about Orlando. I wasn't sure if SabresFan was interested in going to Orlando or was just using that as an example. No need to spend a lot of money if all you want to do is go to Orlando. Even the quality places are easy to get there. We own HGVC in Orlando, but only because in HGVC points are points and home resort priority desert mean as much as in other systems - so we bought where we could get into HGVC at the best price. No need or plans to go to Orlando any time soon. We did the annual Disney thing when the kids were young - been there, done that, got the mouse ears. Never again - unless we have grandkids some day before we get too old.


LOL I’m glad you got the mouse ears lol. You’ll def be back with grandkids. I go with friends and we all have no kids and we have a blast. Especially for food and wine festival. But I’m into universal myself. I digress, there is def no shortage of Orlando resorts. I own in orlando for the same reason you bought into HGVC in Orlando and would never use my points there. Just not worth it when I can score a getaway cheap. I’d rather reserve the star options for Bahamas or Hawaii. With that being said, I’ll be in Orlando in October and December this year. No mouse ears for me, Plenty of beer at the food and wine though!!


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## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> LOL I’m glad you got the mouse ears lol. You’ll def be back with grandkids. I go with friends and we all have no kids and we have a blast. Especially for food and wine festival. But I’m into universal myself. I digress, there is def no shortage of Orlando resorts. I own in orlando and would never use my points there. Just not worth it when I can score a getaway cheap. I’d rather reserve the star options for Bahamas or Hawaii. With that being said, I’ll be in Orlando in October and December this year. No mouse ears for me, Plenty of beer at the food and wine though!!



My wife and I did plan a trip to the food and wine festival a couple years ago, and we actually had an HGVC reserved and anniversary reservations at Victoria & Alberts at the Grand Floridian, but a family medical emergency squashed that. Had to cancel. Haven't gotten around to rescheduling that one yet.


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## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> My wife and I did plan a trip to the food and wine festival a couple years ago, and we actually had an HGVC reserved and anniversary reservations at Victoria & Alberts at the Grand Floridian, but a family medical emergency squashed that. Had to cancel. Haven't gotten around to rescheduling that one yet.


Ah sorry to hear about the family emergency. I do hope all is ok now. If you can reschedule I’d highly recommend that. It’s a fun day. Prepare yourself a day of eating and drinking all around Epcot. I’d suggest skipping restaurant reservations. The fun part is sampling all of the kiosks. The weather is perfect as well


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## Dean

CPNY said:


> Yes the resale market for Marriott is higher. Especially in regards to DC points. There are other options to buying into a program besides MVC. I own Vistana in mandatory resort so I get the ability to use star options to book in Vistana network. Also that comes with interval membership and I just booked a 2 bedroom in MVC grand vista prime week getaway for 375 bucks this week through interval. You don’t need to own MVC to get into MVC especially in Orlando! Interval getaways is cheaper than annual fees on points and you can pretty much always count on Orlando availability. If you wanted only Orlando, I’d suggest looking into DVC. Everyone loves their DVC membership.


DVC is a specialty product for those that can plan ahead and are willing to pay more to stay on property.  While it's a timeshare, it's not the typical timeshare mentality for those of us that own.  I wouldn't own Orlando to stay there routinely unless I needed something specific (like a 3 BR or Christmas).  OTOH some of the better Marriott exchange options/13 month window helpers (esp GV & HL) are in Orlando.


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## SabresFan

CPNY said:


> Yes the resale market for Marriott is higher. Especially in regards to DC points. There are other options to buying into a program besides MVC. I own Vistana in mandatory resort so I get the ability to use star options to book in Vistana network. Also that comes with interval membership and I just booked a 2 bedroom in MVC grand vista prime week getaway for 375 bucks this week through interval. You don’t need to own MVC to get into MVC especially in Orlando! Interval getaways is cheaper than annual fees on points and you can pretty much always count on Orlando availability. If you wanted only Orlando, I’d suggest looking into DVC. Everyone loves their DVC membership.


We already own 300 points DVC, we totally love it, and would love to add more points, but they are crazy expensive.  So I'm looking to get something cheaper than DVC that can still get me to Disney World, with the possibility of other options.  DVC does participate in RCI, but all Orlando resorts are blacked out for DVC members, including things like last calls, so I'm not getting that benefit.
I've been leaning toward Wyndham for their Bonnet Creek property, plus they have Myrtle Beach and Washington DC as other places we would like to visit.  And I can get access to the cheaper deals via RCI as well.
I've also looked hard at Sheraton Vistana Resort.  It's a very cheap purchase and the MF aren't bad for a full week, depending on what phase you buy.  I'm assuming it would only be a slight step down from the Orlando Marriott's based on reviews I've read.  Since all we use the resort for is to sleep and eat breakfast, I'm not that picky - give me clean, quiet and comfortable and little else matters.
I've also considered a Marriott week, but would only consider a platinum week regardless of the resort.  Haven't seen as much inventory in that category though.
We like the flexibility of the points system - some times we go for 8 days, other times 5 days, etc.  So that would be one knock against the Vistana week or Marriott week.  But if we went with that one, and needed a longer vacation, we could book Vistana for 7 days and then tack on DVC days before or after.


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## CPNY

SabresFan said:


> We already own 300 points DVC, we totally love it, and would love to add more points, but they are crazy expensive.  So I'm looking to get something cheaper than DVC that can still get me to Disney World, with the possibility of other options.  DVC does participate in RCI, but all Orlando resorts are blacked out for DVC members, including things like last calls, so I'm not getting that benefit.
> I've been leaning toward Wyndham for their Bonnet Creek property, plus they have Myrtle Beach and Washington DC as other places we would like to visit.  And I can get access to the cheaper deals via RCI as well.
> I've also looked hard at Sheraton Vistana Resort.  It's a very cheap purchase and the MF aren't bad for a full week, depending on what phase you buy.  I'm assuming it would only be a slight step down from the Orlando Marriott's based on reviews I've read.  Since all we use the resort for is to sleep and eat breakfast, I'm not that picky - give me clean, quiet and comfortable and little else matters.
> I've also considered a Marriott week, but would only consider a platinum week regardless of the resort.  Haven't seen as much inventory in that category though.
> We like the flexibility of the points system - some times we go for 8 days, other times 5 days, etc.  So that would be one knock against the Vistana week or Marriott week.  But if we went with that one, and needed a longer vacation, we could book Vistana for 7 days and then tack on DVC days before or after.


Don’t buy Sheraton resort. Buy Vistana villages in key west or Bella phase and get the benefit of using star options for the other Vistana resorts!


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