# Please Help -- How many of you would be interested in a timeshare on a Ship?



## SeaBird (Aug 29, 2006)

The ship is called the *Sea Bird* she is currently in San Diego and is in fantastic running condition.  She was owned and operated by the US Navy until 1994 and two fishing companies until 3 months ago when I purchased her.  She was the original ship used in the movie "*Mister Roberts*".  Go to www.seabirdadventure.com the top picture is when she was in the Navy and the second picture is current, please ignore the paint all will be restored to perfection.

She will have 20 cabins with 10 baths which will be done in dry dock in the next few months.  Once completed the plan is to have 6 month tours between San Diego and Greece -- please see travel map at www.seabirdadventure.com/Travel_Map to get an idea of the travel plans.

The time share opportunity would be for each cabin in one week increments with the option of trading weeks both on and off the ship with other timeshare companies.  You would own or lease the cabin as you would a hotel room in a resort.  The running, maintenance and planning for the *Sea Bird* would be managed for you so all you would have to do is join her at whichever port of call you wanted.  
*Question one* -- Would you do this?

*Question two* -- If you could pick the type of ship this would be, would you prefer a luxury yacht for a higher cost or an exploration/ adventure ship where we actually did exploration work and you were 6 hours a day maximum working with the crew on live projects and working the machinery?

Please let me know what you all think and thank you in advance.


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## Steve (Aug 29, 2006)

I wouldn't do this.  Can you say special assessments?  Not to mention the regular maintenance fees.  Plus, boats depreciate as opposed to real estate which normally appreciates.  (I realize timeshares don't usually appreciate...but at least the underlying land does.)  If I want to spend a week on a boat, I will rent...I definitely will not buy into it.

As for the type of boat, I'd much rather be on a luxury yacht than a working research vessel.  That's really just a matter of personal taste, though.  If someone wants to go adventuring, I'd say go for it!  But I wouldn't advise buying into the boat as a timeshare.

Steve


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## SeaBird (Aug 29, 2006)

Steve, thanks for the post.

The plan would be for you to only pay a normal yearly maintenance fee like other time share so there would not be any special assessments or additional fees to you for maintenance.   So in a nut shell there would be one upfront lease or purchase fee and then a fixed yearly fee that would be pre determined.

Hope that helps, and thanks again for your comments.


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## KenK (Aug 29, 2006)

Sea Bird:

    Welcome to TUG

   I think your post brings some new information to the TUG BBS.  But I am wondering if an administrator might feel it crosses the line as an advertisement.  PArts of your post may be removed....and if so, try to reword to make it not an ad.  (No ad policy on this BBS means almost 100 % unbiased info)

    There have been post here about cruise line type ships selling as timeshare (or interval time).  One of our top T/S info givers has a share on Windjammer......

     I think I agree with Steve.  It is be pretty costly to run....to get set up, updated,  and coast guard OKed?  I keep thinking fuel costs.   Its costs are not going to get absorbed by the management company....they they will soon be out of business...so its costs will probably always fall on the cabin or interval time owner.


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## glenn1000 (Aug 29, 2006)

I wouldn't do it either. I don't think that concept of having a boat that does long range cruises would work because you'd have to get to the boat, wherever it is, at the right time. That could be difficult and expensive. With the price of crusies these days it would make more sense to just pay for a cruise where and when you want to go. And Steve's comments about fees, assessment and depreciation are right on.

We would not want to vacation on a working boat. While it might be interesting for a period of time, I'm not sure that it has the "vacation appeal" we look for.


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## Dave M (Aug 29, 2006)

I'm with Steve, Ken and Glenn. I doubt that there's much of a market for long trips on such a vessel on an ownership basis. 

Take the total ownership and operating costs and divide it by the number of owners and it might barely compute. But who would want the two mid-Atlantic Ocean repositioning parts of each cruise? The flight arrangements for many one-week portions of such long cruises would be horrific And most of those that could do this are spoiled by the rock-bottom prices of big cruise lines that include all of the frills (entertainment, dancing, gambling, kids and teen programs, extensive libraries, multiple onboard daily activities, etc. Or else they have the wherewithal to pay luxury prices for luxury cruises. 

There is definitely a market for bare boat sailing cruises on boats that hang around popular vacation spots, such as in the Caribbean. But I think you are trying to cover too much ocean and will have too many very low "season" weeks.

There have been many tries at doing what you are planning. The track record isn't good. 

You'll need mega-financing. You aren't going to convince many people to release their purchase funds to you for capital needs until you have actually renovated the ship and have it ready to sail. That means financing for renovation, legal costs (see below), staffing, training, unsold weeks, your share of maintenance fees (i.e., the developer’s subsidy in the early years) on unsold weeks, etc. Because of the risks involved, that financing won’t come cheap. And developing a business plan to market your idea to potential financing outlets won’t be cheap either.   

You'll also have some fun times (that's a joke) with expensive attorneys dealing with CA regulations that apply to timeshares and your intended operation and with federal rules that apply to U.S. registered vessels that carry passengers.

I would hope that you have a long track record of involvement at the management/developer level for a timeshare resort and/or in the hospitality industry, as well as significant first-hand experience with the costs and operations of oceangoing vessels if you want any hope at all to make this a success. Otherwise, I don’t believe you’ll have a clue as to what can and will go wrong with your plan.

I fear for your financial future. (And that’s said by someone who is very quick to encourage others to sprout their entrepreneurial wings.)


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## Dave M (Aug 29, 2006)

As for Ken's question about whether the initial post should be edited as an ad, I suggest leaving it as is, since the OP is - at this point - only looking for input as to whether we believe he/she should proceed. 

However, SeaBird should take notice that any attempt (or perceived attempt, in our judgment) to market the idea beyond seeking input will bring a swift edit and closure to this thread. 

We welcome you SeaBird. However, as Ken accurately state, we have a 100% ban on advertising of any type on these forums. So please use care in how and what you post here.


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## taffy19 (Aug 29, 2006)

I don't think it is a good idea because you will be competing with many cruise lines and often offered at bargain prices.

If I were you, I would use the ship for small charters. We have one like that at our marina and it seems to do OK because it has been there for many years. I will jot the name down tomorrow and see if he has a web page too.

The fellow lives on the boat, as far as I know, but charters the boat to go to our local islands. Nothing more. It is an old sailboat and he is or was in the process of restoring it.


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## jerseygirl (Aug 29, 2006)

SeaBird said:
			
		

> She will have 20 cabins with 10 baths ...



I would never go on a vacation where I had to share a bathroom ...



			
				seabird said:
			
		

> *Question two* -- If you could pick the type of ship this would be, would you prefer a luxury yacht for a higher cost or an exploration/ adventure ship where we actually did exploration work and you were 6 hours a day maximum working with the crew on live projects and working the machinery?



luxury yacht for me ... no work on vacation!


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## Hoc (Aug 29, 2006)

Just my 2 cents: To say that there will be no Special Assessments shows a lack of understanding, either of ships or of management requirements.  I have often heard it said that another definition of "boat" is "a hole in the water into which you throw money."  There will inevitably, at some time, be an unanticipated expense.  Possibly a fire, or an engine problem, or hurricane damage, or unanticipated increases in fuel costs, or something else.

So, there will be special assessments, or possibly a huge jump in maintenance fees, somewhere during the ownership.

Also, the length of time of the ownership is an issue.  What is the anticipated remaining life on the ship?  It will probably require more repairs and maintenance near the end, and the eventual deterioration of the ship itself will require some kind of end to the ownership.

These are all important factors to consider in determining whether such a timeshare interest would be valuable.


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## PerryM (Aug 29, 2006)

*Torpedo straight ahead....*

We already own a timeshare on the sailing vessel La Mer link: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/travel/windjammer.html 

It’s turned into a full blown fiasco and many folks will lose a lot of money – under funded from the start and no idea how a timeshare works.  This timeshare is backed by Windjammer and some of us made provisions to save ourselves incase it went belly up (A little nautical lingo there)


Since the La Mer, and ships like it, are not real estate, all kinds of regulatory agencies have no jurisdiction and thus the project is ripe for consumer abuse and fraud.  I’m not saying this venture will do this, but just where are the laws to protect consumers?

I think that the La Mer has blazed a path of incompetence, and deception that this ship will be associated with.  I personally would advise folks to wait until the ship is in service and has proven itself for a while – then sell fractions.

Until then, buyer beware.


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## SeaBird (Aug 29, 2006)

Hoc said:
			
		

> Just my 2 cents: To say that there will be no Special Assessments shows a lack of understanding, either of ships or of management requirements.  I have often heard it said that another definition of "boat" is "a hole in the water into which you throw money."  There will inevitably, at some time, be an unanticipated expense.  Possibly a fire, or an engine problem, or hurricane damage, or unanticipated increases in fuel costs, or something else.
> 
> So, there will be special assessments, or possibly a huge jump in maintenance fees, somewhere during the ownership.
> 
> ...


Hello and thanks for the input...

First the information is great, so thank you all.  As for the special assessments and additional maintenance fees, those would be factored in to the upfront fee and the much smaller annual fee similar to what I’ve learned resort time shares work on.

At this point the Sea Bird minus her 5 year checkup, removal of the rest of the fishing containers and a general dry-docking for paint and such and she is ready to go.  I have owned and worked with this class vessel for many years and understand the costs side of things so short of "act of god" similar to Florida property i.e. hurricanes which would be covered under insurance the support costs, maintenance costs and travel costs are within the model I am thinking of.  

According to the Naval folks and general background of the vessel with proper maintenance she will keep running smoothly for 40+ years with replacements and re-work planned along the way -- as scheduled re-fitting events.  

This should all be able to be managed under the same arrangements as a time share under a costal resort.  I.e. operational repairs scheduled monthly, bi-annually, annually and every five years falling under normal maintenance and extraordinary repairs falling under the equivalent of roof repairs etc. that a costal resort would have.

I hope I’ve helped with the financial concerns a little, but if I could move Question one forward a little and say that the overall financial costs would be in line with a costal resort and that there would be appropriate legal documentation to support this, what would your next set of concerns and or considerations be?

Thank you again, for everyone’s input.


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## SeaBird (Aug 29, 2006)

PerryM said:
			
		

> We already own a timeshare on the sailing vessel La Mer link: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/travel/windjammer.html
> 
> It’s turned into a full blown fiasco and many folks will lose a lot of money – under funded from the start and no idea how a timeshare works.  This timeshare is backed by Windjammer and some of us made provisions to save ourselves incase it went belly up (A little nautical lingo there)
> 
> ...


Perry, 

Thanks for your input and I am sorry for the fiasco you have been through.  I have owned and operated a number of companies that have dealt with consumer products and have also been miss-led by deals in the past.

The only answer I can give from a legal point of view is that if we received enough positive interest to move forward on a time-share based project like this then there would be an agreed upon time for funds and dry-dock time as part of the time-share agreement.  Then the initial payment from each person would be held in an escrow account until either 

1) The minimum number of time slots were sold, dry-dock time would start and be completed with in the stipulated time and she would enter service as agreed to, or

2) The minimum number of time slots were not sold within a previously agreed upon amount of time and all monies received would be returned from escrow.

Does this help with the issues you ran into as well as some of the additional posters on your link?


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## KenK (Aug 29, 2006)

Some think of this as a boat...I see it as a beautiful ship.  I see 60 year old engines and tons of work.  

I don't understand the charity part.  

My first job out of HS was working for the UNited Fruit Company.  (No wise craks, or I'll Chiquita ya!.....

It was on Pier 2 through 9 on the North River (Hudson) in Manhattan...start about 1964.  A mail clerk then in accounting and finally claims (before & after VN).

I remember all the things that could go wrong.  I remember we could not let the ship (actually not a freighter, but a reefer) get stuck in her berth because it cost too much $$$. Ever see a ship leave its berth when the loadmaster messed up?*  (I think the figure THEN was $5000 a day.) I don't know what that included.  

Checking reciepts against the bills from Esso for fuel oil (a lot of gallons for a reefer), and other bills for Sexton and Marcel for food & drinks (just for the crew...we gave up passenger frieght of more than 8 to 12 passnegers)

When I started, there were 72 ships under US flags**-all very small, but not as small as the island hoppers).  When I returned from VN, I think they were all almost sold (1970).  The cost was just too high, even when the had mixed crews (not all American Merchant Marine)

* Before containerized ships

** just US flags.  They had many more under Elders & Fife UK and in Europe

But I can also say that what I remember most vivid was checking the ship before it left (when in claims).  It was so easy to 'attach' to this piece of machinery....oldest, newest....there was something just excellent about each one.  Even watching the engines (giant, outdated, but for some reason just great) gave a feeling of humans master of machinery...(I think like what Pat must feel)

Maybe Seabird sees some of this in his ship. I remember the SS Telde (sp?) one of United Fruits' Great White Fleets oldest (at the time) (1920s)....a ship made to move cargo with teak overlays, teak and mahagony staircases, and a small crews swimming pool.  (gee 1920s....I guess they wanted to keep the union out).  It was retired when I worked there.

http://cgi.ebay.com/S-S-Chiriqui-Un...1784581QQihZ010QQcategoryZ29488QQcmdZViewItem


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## Jennie (Aug 30, 2006)

Dear Seabird,

Perhaps the replies you are receiving here at TUG are not representative of the general population. Most TUG members are very savvy timeshare owners. They purchase top rated timeshares at bargain prices, and become very "spoiled" by the level of luxury and service provided by these 5* resorts. 

People with school-age children, and busy jobs, would not be able to take long vacations. Seniors with more time available, may not find this style of travel to their liking. The terrorism going on all over the world may impact on your plans. Most of our family and friends are avoiding unnecessary plane and sea travel, and are vacationing close to home.

Hubby and I would undoubtedly be interested in taking an extended trip on a ship such as yours. But probably only once or twice. We would not be willing to make an upfront and on-going financial committment, especially prior to actually experiencing a trip. We would be concerned too about the potential difficulties in trying to exchange our weeks for a traditional timeshare, which is one of the cherished benefits enjoyed by owners of timeshare weeks. I believe you would have to obtain affiliation with RCI or I.I. before people would feel "safe" making an investment in your enterprise. Have you explored your plan with the exchange companies?

That said, you may find a more interested market amongst retired seamen, fishermen, and people who love boating but may be getting tired of the responsibility of individual ownership. In other words, people who prefer vacations and leisure pursuits on the high seas rather than at land based resorts. Many of my husband's co-workers fall into that category. They are bored to tears "lying around" a beach or swimming pool. If you could find enough backers to get started on a small scale, you might be able to succeed by renting weeks to their friends and contacts. This would bring in extra revenue, and the renters might go on to become owners.

I wish you the best of luck. It's sounds like an exciting venture.


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## SeaBird (Aug 30, 2006)

Jennie said:
			
		

> Dear Seabird,
> 
> Perhaps the replies you are receiving here at TUG are not representative of the general population. Most TUG members are very savvy timeshare owners. They purchase top rated timeshares at bargain prices, and become very "spoiled" by the level of luxury and service provided by these 5* resorts.
> 
> ...


Jennie,

Thank you for your comments & suggestions, they are greatly appreciated as the rest have been.  

Few questions back at you and the reader/posters here...  

For the travel time it would be from one week and up so only those who wanted an extended time would need to others would simply enjoy for the week maybe two.  Would this fit more people’s lifestyles?

I have talked to RCI and they said they would be very excited to have this as an option for trading "Points?"  and time with their inventory.  Does this meet and help with the exchange requirements and what would I need to show to make it interesting to time-share folks?

I definitely fit the paragraph four type of person (minus the fisherman part) but I simply can’t' sit and sunbath for more then an hour before I need to go do something else, hence the idea.  I would love for your husband's co-workers to post here and let me know what they think and what they would like to see to make this more interesting.

Thank you again.


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## PerryM (Aug 30, 2006)

*Aloha*

Seabird,

If the ship was built in the US and you can sail from US port to US port I’d just sail it to Hawaii and just have week long cruises around the Islands.  You’d have an endless supply of folks who would love to sail on a timeshare around the islands.

I don’t know what your are planning to charge, but A Marriott or Westin charge $45,000 to $50,000 for just a normal week in Maui.  Holiday weeks should be 50% more.

Why ignore THE most desired timeshare location in the world – the Hawaiian Islands?

Timeshare folks have an average of 2 1-week vacations per year.  1 7-day vacation and a few 3 to 4 day vacations.

If I were you I’d just sell a Point system where folks just buy the number of points they need.  (Like RCI Points).  Sell it over the internet and allow folks to charge on charge cards.  Do everything on the internet – no human operators to talk to.  No sleazy salesreps to lie thru their teeth to con someone into something that isn't reality.

Have live salesreps on the internet who can eMail and video conference in real time with interested folks.  There are always things that can't be addressed with a caned presentation - these few folks would handle that.

Another entirely different approach would be to take the route of a Destination Club (Link Helium: http://www.heliumreport.com/)  The same concept is used with private jets and large yachts.  

I personally think that the traditional week based timeshare approach is a dinosaur and I’d pick something that revolves around the latest in computers and communications.

What you are selling is a Right To Use and for a very limited time period of 10 – 20 years.  This will have the value of the unit decreasing almost immediately.


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## caribbeansun (Aug 30, 2006)

Count me in with the others that don't find this appealing.  I work very hard for my vacation time (not unlikely most people I'm sure) and I (plus DW) don't want to stay anywhere other than in luxury or at least high end resorts.  We weren't that enamored with Holland America so this type of accomodation wouldn't even hit our radar.

As far as working while on vacation - well, lets leave it at "no thank you."  Part of the allure of TS and DC's is the fact that I don't have to worry about maintenance or do any of the maintenance work so this would run contrary to our objectives.

Even though this isn't for us I wish you well as I'm sure there may be others that would enjoy such a distraction.


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## SeaBird (Aug 30, 2006)

Perry,

I like the Hawaii idea, this could work well however would the plan for this be geared towards luxury as the exploration work would be limited in one area, I would think?

Additionally would it be of interests to go between Hawaii and the Caribbean or maybe spend time traveling between the Caribbean islands which have allot more diversity?

Thanks for the input.


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## PerryM (Aug 30, 2006)

*Variety is the spice of life...*

SeaBird,

One of the reasons we bought into Windjammer’s Sea Cabins was that every few weeks they offered a different ports of call and more adventure.  They had “repositioning” cruises that many folks found to be great – no port of calls each nite just solitude, others want a different adventure each night.

By selling points and offering a widely changing set of ports of call, you can offer much to a timeshare owner.  During hurricane season in the Caribbean spend that time in Hawaii or Alaska or ports of call in Mexico.

You have 12 months a year and each month could offer a different set of ports of call.  Points allows the “owner” to decide what cruise they want this year and next year, etc.

You can have a Washington state, and Canada cruise tied to Canadian railways or bus tours – it’s up to you how creative and diverse your adventures are.

Alaska and heck even Russia offer adventure.  That’s the main advantage to a moving timeshare - each year it's something completely different.


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## SeaBird (Aug 30, 2006)

PerryM said:
			
		

> SeaBird,
> 
> One of the reasons we bought into Windjammer’s Sea Cabins was that every few weeks they offered a different ports of call and more adventure.  They had “repositioning” cruises that many folks found to be great – no port of calls each nite just solitude, others want a different adventure each night.
> 
> ...


Thanks again Perry,

This sounds like it might work well, can you and any other person reading this give me a feel for how the RCI point system works and how this might work with the SeaBird?  

I have briefly talked with an exec at RCI and the point system came up, but i know little about it.

Questions are how are points purchased, who is the trade bank, what is the value of a point, etc.?

Thanks again.


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## PerryM (Aug 30, 2006)

*RCI not needed*

I’d forget about RCI Points – your timeshare should offer enough variety that owners will look forward to using their unit each year.

Your timeshare is an all inclusive and that spells disaster for the exchange companies.  Many times the exchange companies list the all inclusive timeshare and then demand a separate payment for the all inclusive side of it – that kills the trading power in RCI and II.

Allow folks to rent out their unit if they can’t make the vacation that year or allow them to roll forward their points and borrow from the future.  By doing so the need for a 3rd party exchange is minimized and not needed.

If anything, on your web site place the weeks up for exchange and allow the owner to do private exchanges if they wish.


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## grest (Aug 30, 2006)

Nope, I wouldn't do it.
Connie


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## myip (Aug 30, 2006)

No way.  Not on a small ship across the Atlantic Ocean.  I wll be more inclined to use it  for 1 week around Hawaii Island or Carribean Islands.


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## pedro47 (Aug 30, 2006)

No way.  Looks like a special assessment every six months.  Food, docking fees and mainteance costs would be very high.


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## SeaBird (Aug 31, 2006)

PerryM said:
			
		

> I’d forget about RCI Points – your timeshare should offer enough variety that owners will look forward to using their unit each year.
> 
> Your timeshare is an all inclusive and that spells disaster for the exchange companies.  Many times the exchange companies list the all inclusive timeshare and then demand a separate payment for the all inclusive side of it – that kills the trading power in RCI and II.
> 
> ...


Perry, 

Thanks again for your input.  I am not sure I understand the benifits in not allowing point trading for the folks that would have time shares on the Sea Bird.

Wouldn't this allow more flexability to the Sea Bird time share folks to be able to either trade for different weeks on the Sea Bird as well as trade with a land based time share?

Thanks.


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## SeaBird (Aug 31, 2006)

pedro47 said:
			
		

> No way.  Looks like a special assessment every six months.  Food, docking fees and mainteance costs would be very high.


Pedro47,

Thank you for your input please read post number 12 above, and see if you would be interested if there were NO weird special assements popping up???

And if you were interested would it be in a Luxary trip or exploration trip?

Thanks.


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## taffy19 (Aug 31, 2006)

SeaBird,

I promised to go to our marina today and find out some information for you. The Dirigo II wasn't in her slip today as she was chartered to the Channel Islands. I went to the marina office to find out where I could get some information on this boat and the owner.

Here is information on this old 72 foot Alden schooner and information too on the charter operation. It seems to be tied up with a sailing club too. I also have the name and phone number of the owner of the boat in case you like to speak with him. I spoke with his partner today. Let me know if you would like me to email it to you?

We have been on this beautiful wooden hull schooner when they had open house in our marina. They seem to have open house every once and a while to get people interested in our area. They also advertise in the LA Times and in Westways from the AAA (Automobile Club of America).

I also found out that they go to Mexico and the owner doesn't live onboard.


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## pedro47 (Aug 31, 2006)

I would be interested in a luxary trip.


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## PerryM (Aug 31, 2006)

*And my consulting fee is...*

SeaBird,

Windjammer went thru the same elation of being wooed by II and RCI.  However, both placed so many draconian limitations on the all inclusive that they abandoned them for TradingPlaces.com.  I was not privy to what went on but when you join both you do have to provide them with inventory.

All inclusive timeshares turn out to NOT have the unbelievable trading power one imagines – most all inclusive exchanged force the person to add big bucks for each person attending – the cost of the food is NOT included by the developer.  Since you are the developer you could indeed have this part of an all inclusive.  But, many II and RCI folks just assume your all inclusive would add a food charge and just skip over you.


One of the clauses I added to our Windjammer agreement was the ability to rent weeks on their other boats in the fleet to the public.  They were very upset when I did list a week on the Legacy for rent on eBay – they called and demanded that I remove the listing – I simply read them the clause I inserted in the sales contract and they let me alone.  I got someone to pay 80% of the going Windjammer rate.

So owners on your ship can easily rent their week on eBay, www.MyResortNetwork.com, and www.RedWeek.com with no problems – why get an exchange company involved in the first place?  But I guess it’s a sales tool.

A point based system, with a holiday procedure, will give all the flexibility anyone needs to actually use their points on your ship.  Allow them to cancel reservations up to 30 days before sailing and roll those points forward to next year and to borrow points from next year so they can use a larger cabin or bid for a holiday week.

Holiday Weeks:
Most timeshare owners all want to go on vacation the same time – at the holidays and when the kids are off of school.  The most clever holiday system I’ve seen is used by a number of Destination Clubs:

Points:
You should base your points on the rental rate for a cabin and week.  E.g. 4th of July week in a certain cabin should rent for $5,000 for the week = 5,000 Points.  This opens all kinds of flexibility to your point program.

Sell Point packages which at a minimum will cover the cheapest cabin at the cheapest week.  E.g. 2,500 points would be the minimum account size.  Folks can buy more and you can offer quantity discounts. E.g. 2,500 Points costs $12,500 (10 years of rental at 50% discount)  buying a 5,000 point package might be 10% cheaper or instead of $25,000 its just $22,500.  The MF is based on the price per point, e.g. each point’s MF is 20¢ a point or for 2,500 points that’s $500 per year.

If the person is 500 points short of getting their dream week and cabin allow them to rent poiints from other owners or you rent for $500 and they get 500 more, one time, points into their account.  There has to be a limitation here which could be no more renting points than they have bought (over the life of the timeshare)  in this case only 2,500 points can ever be rented from other owners or from you.

Holiday Tokens:
For each 10 points you get 1 Holiday Token, e.g. on 2,500 Points you get 250 Holiday Tokens.  (This is used as to not get points and tokens confused)

1 year before, like 2008 for today, you open all 10 holiday weeks (just an example) to bidding.  Each owner decides how to bid his tokens.  If they really want New Years, then they would bid all 250 tokens.  If they have 2 dates, they might bid 100 tokens for 4th of July and 100 tokens for New Years and roll forward 50 tokens.  If they don't really care which holiday week they bid 25 tokens each for the 10 holiday weeks - could get one and only cost them 25 tokens with the rest rolling forward to next year.

You can allow them to bank and borrow tokens just like your points.  So if the have to have New Years they could bid 500 tokens this year (borrow 250 from next year) but next year you'd not have any holiday tokens at all.  (But could borrow from the next year)

After 30 days the bidding (which is done on your internet site) ends and the computer sorts the tokens bid and awards reservations – if duplicate bids, the time stamp when the bid was entered is the tie breaker.

If you don’t get your holiday this year, the tokens roll forward and next year the would have 500 tokens and could bid all on Christmas if they wish.  (Could also borrow 250 from the next year and bid 750 tokens - if they win all tokens bid are taken)

This is the most fair system I’ve come across; its based on the size of the account and the flexibility of the owner.


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## SeaBird (Aug 31, 2006)

Perry, 

This is great information and thank you for spending the time sharing your knowledge and the layout of which system has the most "fairness".  Your idea of managing our own point and token bank with today’s internet and databases is easy to do and quite possibly the way we might approach this.

Are there any other readers of this post that agree or disagree with this approach?

Also in talking with different resort folks it appears that using a floating week based system may be the best approach, any thoughts? 

Thanks again for this wonderful dialog.


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## bruwery (Aug 31, 2006)

No, I would not buy into this.  Even if the contract guaranteed no special assessments.  It's too easy to book an affordable cruise whenever or wherever I might want to go, without the hassles of "ownership".  Maybe I just don't appreciate boats enough, but in my experience, they're money pits.

Regarding the "exploration" idea: There's certainly no way I'd pay somebody big money up front to entitle me to 20 years worth of "working" vacations.

I can imagine telling my wife - "Okay, we've spent all this money to have this great vacation, but we're not actually going to relax.  You're going to dig holes with a toothbrush while I sift through the dirt looking for fossils..."  I'm pretty sure she'd beat me to death with a frying pan.

Now, to mention a concern I didn't notice in the previous postings: My loving wife (the one with the violent frying pan) is a selective eater.  What if she doesn't like your chef's cooking?  With only 20 suites, there would be a limited budget, and therefore a limited menu.  I'd be stuck with taking a vacation every year where I know in advance that the food will be a disappointment.

Also, you have a fixed revenue plan, but your costs will increase over time.  How will you offset that?  One inevitable result will be a decrease in the quality of the food, to the point that 10 bathrooms for 20 suites won't be enough...

I can't help but think that you'd be taking on far more headaches than you need with this endeavor.

Can you find 1,040 people that would buy into this boat?  Almost certainly.  Can you make a go of the enterprise while operating in accordance with your current vision?  I'm skeptical, therefore I'm not one of those 1,040.

MB


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## SeaBird (Aug 31, 2006)

Bruwery,

Thank you, I certainly would not want you wife to beat you with the frying pan, unless of course this was part of the entertainment  and we would provide better then a toothbrush for the digging.

One clarification, the revenue plan is not fixed it would be comparable to a costal time-share so the focus would be NO special BOAT fees, all of the fees would be kept to what a reasonable costal time-share person would expect to pay on a comparable layout feature and function.

As for the Bathrooms   I think that if the ship was to be converted to luxury then it would have to have a bathroom with each stateroom, the work ship idea would be more in the shared model.  So for all you readers that might consider a luxury plan this would be set up with suites and amenities that would be incredible.

Hope this helps.


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## SeaBird (Aug 31, 2006)

iconnections said:
			
		

> SeaBird,
> 
> I promised to go to our marina today and find out some information for you. The Dirigo II wasn't in her slip today as she was chartered to the Channel Islands. I went to the marina office to find out where I could get some information on this boat and the owner.
> 
> ...


iconnections,

Great, thank you for the information on the 72 foot Alden.  This would be similar and the boat looks fantastic.  The Sea Bird is a little larger so will have much more space for comfort she's 177 feet long,  and a little more dogged as see doesn't count on the wind 

I will also try to contact them for more ideas and information, thanks again.


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## SeaBird (Sep 1, 2006)

*I still need everyones opinions, please let me know.*

Please don't stop an the votes and answers I am very interested in everyone’s opinions and still would like to get input on the following questions;

Luxury versus Exploration Adventure?

Amenities and what you'd expect to have?

Best travel spots for the ship to be at?

Whether a point system would be better than a floating week purchase?

Why you would do this or wouldn't?

What would you want to see before you would sign up?

What would this be worth?

Thanks in advance for all the help and thanks again to all those who have already posted.


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## Sandy VDH (Sep 2, 2006)

I own at Tradewinds Cruise Club, a catamaran operation.  www.tradewindscruiseclub.com.  They have big plans to expand, but they never manage to expand as quickly as they would like. 

Now this is an operation with 4 - 6 cabins only per yacht.  Yes there is an all inclusive fee, some feel it is fair, others timeshare owners feel that any All Inclusive is too much.

Now TWCC has issues with permits, supplies (ice and water being the most expensive for them).   Now considering that people want to spend a week only, you need to figure out where you can sail/motor in a weeks time.  Is there adequate transportation in that location for people to offboard and then onboard the next group of people.  

You likely need reliable airports and a reliable schedule.  TWCC in order to accommodate both ends of the transfers stay in port the night of departure and actually sets sail the next morning just in case people misconnect on flights.  They also get into port the the evening before the cruise is to end.  This is just in case of weather/sea conditions, or people having really early flights for departure. 

You also need homework done at each transfer.  What dock/pier?  Times?  Transportation from Airport to Pier etc.  This is a lot of work when you change the itinerary each week.

Tradewinds does move from time to time, but they maintain a base and schedule in that place for a few months.  There is also lead time required in each port to set up any licenses, suppliers, etc.  

Now you might have laundy on board which would cut down on an issue that TWCC does have.  They need a place for laundry services at the end of each cruise.  Land bases are required for a cental communication point, etc.

I know I would not be happy to fly half way around the world to meet a ship at a port and not be sure how exactly is the best way to get there and also wondering if I will actually find the ship there.


Just a few more things to think about.  


Sandy

P.S.  Sharing a bathroom would eliminate as a choice for me.


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## SeaBird (Sep 2, 2006)

Sandy,

Thank you for your great comments.  The port issue you bring up is probably my biggest concern, because of the very issues you bring up -- timing, access, special licenses, availability of slips etc.  The way I was thinking of dealing with this is to have port last 3-4 days per port where air travel in and out is available.  The downside would be that there may be excess port time for some people the upside would be that we should have enough overlap to cover access to and from the ship, what do you think? 
On the other questions and comments;

The Sea Bird currently has on board in good working order a full laundry facility that on a luxury ship would all be done for you.

She has her own fresh water makers and ice makers on board in fact I have to sell the large ice maker that can be seen in the picture behind the forward crane which makes 20,000lbs per day -- probably to much ice for a cruise 

It looks like the Hawaii and or Caribbean hopper ideas may be the best or a combination of both with special deals on the transfer cruise part, any comments?

Thanks Again


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## PerryM (Sep 2, 2006)

*Hope you get the "Point"*

When we took our Windjammer cruise on the Legacy we arrived Saturday at noon in Miami and took a cab to the Port of Miami and the pier where the Legacy was moored.  Folks were arriving throughout the day and the ship set sail at exactly 6 PM – if you didn’t make it too bad you would have to get a flight and rendezvous at another port. 

We retuned a week later Friday morning at first light back at Miami – well that was the plan.  Hurricanes were flying all around our course and we actually arrived back on Thursday morning and had to change our flight reservations to get out of Miami 12 hours before the hurricane hit Miami – life’s not dull on a tall sailing ship.  We lost a day and the Legacy sailed away at 12 knots to run from the hurricane – the next voyage was cancelled and I guess all those folks rebooked on another trip.

Many folks arrived on Friday so they would not miss the voyage which started at 6 PM Saturday night.  Since the Legacy always arrived Friday morning at first light the ship had a full 24 hours to be refitted with supplies.  They had a “Stowaway” plan that cost $100 dollars and allowed you to board the ship at 4 PM on Friday, settle into your cabin and eat 3 meals.  Many folks took them up on their offer.  This was free to the timeshare owners who were sailing on the Legacy, a normal commercial vessel, not a timeshare.

So you really only got to sail Saturday night to Friday morning – the 18 hours were needed for bad weather and refitting the ship.


The advantage of a Point System is that you aren’t limited to 7 days – have 10 day cruises, 4 days, 21 days – mix and match.  Allow the owners to vote and 20 different itineraries for next year and implement the ones that make each year totally different than last year.

I would, however, have the ports close to international airports and implement contingency plans to cover bad weather and how someone who missed one port can join later.

However, I’d simply start 7 - 10 day cruises around Hawaii for the first year.  I remember this year we were in Lahaina Maui on the 4th of July and we just finished a Ruth’s Chris steak and simply walked outside to see the fireworks on a barge in the Lahaina harbor.  The cruise ship that is now in the Hawaiian waters inched slowly into the harbor to watch the fireworks.  They were as much fun to watch to the crowd as the fireworks!

There are a million things to do in Hawaii and every day is a new adventure – a different port of call.  2 days might be needed in Honolulu.

Alaska the next year, the Caribbean the year after that….  Let the owners vote on the length and location of the ports of call.


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## SeaBird (Sep 3, 2006)

Hello Perry, 

Good to see your additional comments, I am only a dull point so I'll just keep on asking 

I like the whole transfer port of call idea, this seems to work.  Because the Sea Bird is all engine she will have a much better control of timing then a sailor would.  So this should work well to.

As long as everyone was ok with the 6:30pm we leave train schedule idea then that works great also.

The owner voting idea I am a little leery about, this could be a political struggle so I might keep to a posted planned itinerary instead.

The point system is still intriguing but it is currently in balance with the floating week thoughts.

Comments?


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## PerryM (Sep 3, 2006)

*Points can handle any timeshare need*

SeaBird,

*Most timeshares are now sold as Points *– WorldMark, Disney, FairField, Club IntraWest, and a bunch of hotel chain timeshares, etc.  Points offer tremendous flexibility to the owner.  To the developer it offers many advantages (many of which drive us owners up the wall):

*Sell the same dream over and over again*
Most timeshare owners all want to go on vacation at the same time.  Name a holiday and we’re off of work and the kids are out of school and off to the timeshare we go.

The developer’s salesreps know this and sell Christmas week over and over again if they can.  In a Points based timeshare they can and do.  Reality sets in after the owner buys the points and looks at the calendar and suddenly realizes he doesn’t have enough points to spend Christmas on you ship anymore, or in a smaller cabin.

*Calendar is fluid and can change*
Many point based systems like Club IntraWest publish a new Points Calendar each year.  You can do the same thing.  Let’s say that last year no owner wanted to cruise week weeks 19 – 22, (May) and weeks 23 – 33 (Summer months) were crazy and week 27 (4th of July) was insane.  Same with weeks 51 & 52.

No problem.  The total number of Points in a calendar year can’t changer per cabin.  Let’s say that 52 weeks averaged $3,000 per week (Rack rate) or $156,000 income to you for the cabin each year.  When you convert this to Points at say 50% discount you can sell 78,000 Points per year for the cabin.

You then take your calendar, and for each day of the year assign the number of Points the owner would need to spend to reserve it.  E.g. instead of 1,500 Points for week 19 (1st week in May) (78,000/52) no one signed up this year so you decrease week 19 to 1,000 Points and can move 500 Points to week 52 which is now 1,500 + 500 = 2,000 Points.

If an itinerary has a holiday in some island that folks want to really attend, say Halloween, then your Points calendar is adjusted.

However adding up all 365 days’ Points MUST equal 78,000 Points – ALWAYS.

*Over saturation of hot holiday weeks and not adjusting the Points Calendar *
Although you can have a “Token based holiday lottery” the preferred capitalistic way is to settle all arguments with cold hard cash – or Points in this case.

Club IntraWest is a timeshare chain but their main timeshares are at Whistler, BC Canada.  CI salesreps started to demand that not so many points should be added to Christmas week, since every skier wants to ski Whistler on Christmas.  The result is total chaos and too many upset folks.  The solution is to take points from dead times and move them to high demand times.

Since Christmas week doesn't cost enough Points hundreds/thousands of CI owners have enough points to ski so they all try to make the same reservation the day reservations opens for Christmas week.

The result is that many owners buy more points to add “Throw away days” in front of the week they really want to reserve – too many owners are on the internet when reservations opens for Christmas so just buy “Throw away days” in front of it and be first in line.

The simple solution is to move more points around, but that overselling of a Christmas on Whistler needs to be toned down.

*Conclusion:*
With Points, you sell an ever-changing vacation dream – you change the ports of call, the length of cruises and the Points an owner needs to spend to get there via the Points Calendar.


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## SeaBird (Sep 7, 2006)

Perry,

Thank you again for your answers and explanations they are very useful and helpful.

I was wondering if anyone else who is reading this thread has opinions on purchase, lease and or points?  Please let me know... thanks

Also I have been contacted by the timeshare company that Ed McMann sponsors and was wondering if anyone knows these guys?

They have asked for a sum of money to advertise and acquire time share folks for me and in addition they say they will handle all the legal work and even finance buyers, however they make no promises to actually bring anyone...

Please Let Me know, Sea Bird, thanks in advance.


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## PerryM (Sep 7, 2006)

*déjà vu all over again*

SeaBird,

Ohhh, up front money for future performance, sounds like a scam timeshare reseller.

I’ll do the same at half the price   Heck I might even have better results.


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## cayman love r (Sep 8, 2006)

The pictures on the website make the ship look like a Tramp steamer.  I do not see how you could get enough passengers on the ship to make it work.  For the price you would have to charge, people would expect the best.  Not an old freighter that was originally a Navy ship.

You would need stabilizers in the front, individual bathrooms, a first rate gallery, and some entertainment and public rooms.  Where will also those rooms be on a ship with a small superstructure?

You would do better fitting the ship out as a research vessel and hiring it out to universities for semesters at sea.  College students will put up with cramped living quarters.  Older adults with the money to buy the timeshare want a first class experience.


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## SeaBird (Sep 9, 2006)

Caymen, great to hear from you thank you.

The Sea Bird will be going through dry dock as well as conversion.  This is a 177 foot all steel vessel build by our US govt.  Which basically means you can't build a stronger or better ship.  

The two directions I am looking at is 20 cabins 10 bath rooms adventure work ship kind of like "City Slickers" on the water -- No one here likes that idea 

The second direction is to convert her to a luxury ship, this is very easily done just requires money.  The infrastructure is the best one can get for this size vessel.  The conversion would include 20 staterooms with bathrooms, very lavish dinning and bar area, library, weight and gym, sun decks "Teak", entertainment craft off the aft, private office space plus all the current amenities she has like laundry, fresh water makers, ice makers, 900KW of power which consists of 2x250KW, 1x370KW & 1x70KW.

This would also include a working crew of 1 crew member per 4 guests which should be sufficient, what do you think?

I have just completed her water line hull survey, ultrasound & zincs and she is in incredible shape for any age vessel.  Once I sell the two large containers on the front deck she heads for dry dock, then she will look a lot more like a ship, the rust is surface only and will go way in about 20 days.

Any other answers I can provide please ask.  Thanks again.

Opps, almost forgot, she already has stabilizers in the front, I will be adding a front bulb though.


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## SeaBird (Sep 9, 2006)

Perry,

Thanks, I'll get the name of the group and post to get your opinions.  I might take you up on the sale position 

Thanks again.


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## cclendinen (Sep 9, 2006)

*Success requires a  competitive advantage.*

I own a couple of alternative timeshares, a houseboat and motorhome that I purchased resale.  The only reason I went this route was that the cost of ownership including maintenance was less than half the rental cost for same type of vacation.  I also had the option to exchange these with other timeshares or use the RCI points-for-deposit program. (PDF maintenance-per-point is less than $.01 at point)

If I were looking to purchase a cruise timeshare, it would have to offer the same cost advantage over what was available in the cruise industry today or offer unique travel experience not available in the cruise industry.  Cruises are currently one of the most economical vacations available.  You can find lots of cruises for $65.00 to $75.00 a day. (Of course these are inside rooms on lower decks)  The food alone is worth the price.   

Tradewinds Cruise Club is an example of an all-inclusive catamaran timeshare that sails many Caribbean islands offering water sports and locations that are not accessible to the large cruise lines.  The current all-inclusive fee is $675.00 per person.  Overall this is probably more expensive than the traditional cruises on the large ships but it offers a unique experience.

If your cruise timeshare does not offer either a unique experience or a price advantage I don’t think it will be successful.


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## SeaBird (Sep 10, 2006)

Clendinen,

Thank you, and I agree on all points, the original idea was to be the "City Slickers" on the water approach, however a large percentage of the Time share folks don't like the idea of working on their time share. 

So the Luxury Excursion would have classes in exotic cooking, celestial & costal navigation, piloting, scuba... etc.   The atmosphere would be luxury with optional classes in many interesting areas.  In addition this is a small enough vessel with only a 10' draw that even competes with where a small sailboat can go.

How does this sound?


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## SeaBird (Sep 11, 2006)

I will be out of town for two weeks, please keep this thread going while I'm gone.  The input here is great and very helpful.

Seabird


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## sumauri (Sep 11, 2006)

I wouldn't do it for several reasons -- the two below are foremost in my mind:

1. Cabins on large luxury cruiseships can be small unless you can afford to rent a suite. I can imagine how small a cabin would be on a small ship/vessel.

2. We once owned an older steel bottomed houseboat. Maintenance was neverending until we sold it. I agree that there will be special assessments in the future for timeshare owners buying into the ship.


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## RonaldCol (Sep 18, 2006)

*Waiting for Resale*

I'm kind of interested, but I'll watch and step in in the resale market.


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## SeaBird (Sep 29, 2006)

sumauri said:
			
		

> I wouldn't do it for several reasons -- the two below are foremost in my mind:
> 
> 1. Cabins on large luxury cruiseships can be small unless you can afford to rent a suite. I can imagine how small a cabin would be on a small ship/vessel.
> 
> 2. We once owned an older steel bottomed houseboat. Maintenance was neverending until we sold it. I agree that there will be special assessments in the future for timeshare owners buying into the ship.


Sumauri,

Thank you for your thoughts, two comments one for each of yours 

1.  If I go the luxury direction, all of the cabins will have outside windows, bathroom, king size bed, desk, entertainment area and a small sitting area with two chairs, so each cabin will be as nice as the elite ones on the larger ships.  This can be done by doing only 20 cabins.

2.  I just completed a complete underwater survey, the zincs are all 50% or better, NO pitting, all under water paint in Good condition, sono shows no breakdown of the hull.  Also consider the difference between the construction of a houseboat and a Naval vessel with 5/8" steel plating.

Hope this helps


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## SeaBird (Sep 29, 2006)

RonaldCol said:
			
		

> I'm kind of interested, but I'll watch and step in in the resale market.


Ronald,

Thank you for showing you interests, any specific things you would like to see or comment on to make this a better opportunity for both you and other perspective time share folks?

Thank you, Seabird


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## Dave M (Sep 29, 2006)

SeaBird said:
			
		

> If I go the luxury direction, all of the cabins will have outside windows, .... so each cabin will be as nice as the elite ones on the larger ships.


I think your plans, if you go that direction, are out of date. Today's new cruise ships have balconies (or "Verandahs") on the majority of outside cabins. Many new smaller cruise ships have balconies on all outside cabins. On ships with both window and balcony cabins, the balcony cabins, even though more expensive, almost always sell out first. Even older ships (e.g., Sovereign of the Seas) often have balconies added when they undergo renovation.

Upscale cruisers are demanding balconies!

My strong recommendation is that you take a cruise on one of the new cruise ships to experience first hand the amenities, conveniences and luxury that today's cruisers can get for as little as about $600 per person for a week. With the money you are planning to invest, the expense for such a cruise is peanuts compared to the risk you take if you misjudge what cruisers are seeking.


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## SeaBird (Sep 29, 2006)

Dave,

Thanks for your input; the issue on balconies is a little trickier.  I have a 35' beam so with two large suites and a hallway the trade off is between a 15" wide stateroom or take that smaller and add the balcony.

The real question is would people prefer a larger stateroom or a balcony?

Please let me know?

Thanks


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## Dave M (Sep 29, 2006)

You'll get only anecdotal responses to that question here. However, the major cruise lines, by increasingly taking away from space that could have been used for a larger stateroom in order to put in a balcony, believe they have the answer. The high sales factor for balcony cabins would seem to support that decision.

It's partly for that "anecdotal" issue that I believe you would be well served to experience first-hand what a modern cruise ship has to offer. Then you'll have a better idea of what you are up against.


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## maiwah (Sep 30, 2006)

*I will not buy, but would love to exchange into one*

I will not buy timeshare on a ship.  However, I would love to exchange into one.  I will not mind at all if this is a working ship.  Actually, I think this will be a great opportunity for education related activities.  Learning on the ship, or exploratory/ excursion type iternary, such as following the earlier explorers' path, or marine biology studies will be wonderful.  As everyone said here, it is a tough business.   May be Seabird should organize a couple of trips first, with friends or acquaintances, or organize a summer camp with some institutes (insurance and bureaucrazy becomes difficult when school is involved) and have a mini trip, or a summer camp first to figure out how much will it cost to run and operate the ship, with clients on the ship, before putting a business plan together for estimation of the annual cost for maintenance.  If it works, I think it would be a lot of fun and learning experience.  I love to be on one for vacation.  But seriously, I won't want to own one.  Too much hassle to own, and too diffult to sell.


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## SeaBird (Oct 6, 2006)

Hello Dave,

Sorry I have to disagree, the balcony issues are physics not "anecdotal".  I do agree with you comments related to higher sales for balconies however adding a balcony to each stateroom will significantly reduce the cabin width and cabin room.

So the question stems from larger cabin private accommodations or small or at least narrow staterooms with balconies?

Thanks, Seabird


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## Dave M (Oct 6, 2006)

SeaBird said:
			
		

> Hello Dave,
> 
> Sorry I have to disagree, the balcony issues are physics not "anecdotal".


That wasn't my intent. Yes, I realize there is a significant difference in the layout (and the cost) in deciding whether to have balconies.

What I intended is that if you get ten (for example) responses here to your balconies vs. bigger staterooms question, those responses are anecdotal. Those responses don't have anywhere near the same value that a survey of a large group of thousands of potential passengers might have. Thus, if you rely on those ten responses, even if all ten vote for one of the two - either one of the two - you could easily draw the wrong conclusion and have an economic disaster with your project. Fortunately, the big cruise lines have done much of your survey work for you. And the proof of what they found is in their new ship construction.

It's partly for that reason that I have strongly advised you to take a cruise on a modern cruise ship to see how they do things. One of the things you can do - and will likely do at breakneck speed - is to visit the inside of every type of cabin on a large ship in the very first hours after boarding, while some unoccupied cabin doors are still open, and do the same on the last morning of the cruise, after many other passengers have disembarked, leaving doors to empty cabins open.

In a sense, going on a cruise would be like going into the restaurant business. Almost every business advisor recommends that you work in the restaurant business before owning one. In this case, you should experience first hand how cruise ships run their business before trying to do it yourself. Taking a cruise would be a very inexpensive educational class!

No matter whether you go with balconies or larger cabins, the ultimate draw will be what you have to offer – and at what price - that will convince potential passengers buy a week and cruise with you rather than pay $700-$1,000 each for a relatively luxurious all-inclusive seven-day cruise with one of the major cruise lines.


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## SeaBird (Oct 9, 2006)

Dave,

Points well taken, I especially like the idea of talking with the cruise lines and passing through all the different cabins at the end of a trip.  I will see what can be done here in San Diego as we have several large cruise ships here at port each week.

The pricing you are quoting "pay $700-$1,000 each for" seems a little on the cheap side is this during off-peaks months?

Thank you again for the help,
SeaBird


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## SeaBird (Oct 9, 2006)

Maiwah,

Thank you for your comments, I think you are the 1st one here that would go for the adventure cruise, however we had one poster that had friends that might.

I am curious what would be the hassles?

Thanks, Seabird


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## Dave M (Oct 9, 2006)

SeaBird said:
			
		

> The pricing you are quoting "pay $700-$1,000 each for" seems a little on the cheap side is this during off-peaks months?


Actually, that's on the high side, but I increased the amount from advertised prices to include estimated taxes and port charges. 

Pick up the Travel section of any major city Sunday newspaper. Look for cruise ads and you'll see prices lower than I have quoted - year round except for Alaska. You can also go to any of the major cruise booking sites, such as Cruise.com. Note the very low advertised prices. Although there might not be many cabins at those per-person prices, the prices are real. Thus, you will be competing with low-priced cruises on modern ships that include numerous free activities, entertainment, athletic facilities, etc.

To clear up a possible misconception, it's unlikely that a cruise ship will allow you on board in between cruises. The security precautions generally prohibit boarding except for crew and passengers. Thus, you'll have to - and should - take a cruise to get a look at those cabins.


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## Carol C (Oct 9, 2006)

Seabird, a suggestion...since you're apparently already in the timeshare industry and doing extensive marketing research via your guest pass to TUG, do you know about ARDA? You should join them and network with the players in the industry who'd be able to guide your business plan with alot more expertise than TUGgers can.


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## SeaBird (Oct 13, 2006)

Carol, 

Thank you for your advice I did not know about ARDA but will look them up, thanks again, however I would like to say that so far the Tuggers have done a nice job of making me think through some details that I might have missed through the process.   So all you Tuggers please keep getting me your opinions, thank you in advance.

Seabird


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## SeaBird (Oct 16, 2006)

Hello Dave,



> Actually, that's on the high side, but I increased the amount from advertised prices to include estimated taxes and port charges.



I checked on prices and certainly during off peak on the large Carnival ships you can get some fantastic deals but apparently not for the balcony suites.  

The other item to consider is this is more in the class of specialized small cruise ship with the ability to go where only the small ships can...  The prices on the smaller ships seem to range from $3000-$8000 per couple with some as high as $15000 with this in mind the Sea Bird becomes a very good deal indeed. 

SeaBird


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## Dave M (Oct 16, 2006)

Those "smaller ships" you refer to at those prices are likely with Seabourne, Crystal, Silversea and a few others that have every possible luxury and service accommodation that you can imagine. The clientele for those ships is much different from the group you have indicated you hope to attract.

I have said the following in several different ways, so I'll try one more time and then I’ll retire from this dialogue.

It's pretty clear that you have a clear vision for your project. That's wonderful. It's something that many entrepreneurs lack.

However, your journey is fraught with risk. To avoid a financial disaster, you really need to literally get out there and see how others are doing what you want to do. Take a cruise. It's obvious you haven't yet. Better yet, try to find a ship that is as close to the type of offering you plan as you can find. A carefully executed Google search will lead you in the right direction. (I already did one to be sure.) Then take a cruise on such a ship so that you can see first hand what works and what doesn't. 

You want to be better than others so that you don't fail. How can you possible accurately guess what your competition is like if you don't do some extensive first-hand research regarding that competition? If spending $3,000-$5,000 for a couple of cruises for you and a companion doesn't fit in the budget, I feel certain you will fail, no matter how good you are at putting your vision into an action plan. 

Why? Because your vision may not meet the needs of your potential customers. Unless you adequately research what that group wants and what they currently have to choose from and what those other cruises are like, how can you hope to have any better chance than if you were putting your money on a roulette table?

I speak from many years of experience in a profession where my primary focus was advising businesses, including small businesses and many start-ups. Those who planned well had a much higher success ratio that those who didn't. Currently, I believe you are in the "didn't" category.


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## SeaBird (Oct 19, 2006)

Good Morning Dave,

Thank you so much for your patience and advice.  I am a little concerned that you have been building from a false impression that I might have given you...



> I have said the following in several different ways, so I'll try one more time and then I’ll retire from this dialogue... you really need to literally get out there and see how others are doing what you want to do. Take a cruise. It's obvious you haven't yet...



This whole post is about research for Time Sharing and the possible interest between a luxury Time Share or a Adventure Time Share.  I must apologize if I have given you the impression I have not taken cruises or understand the business models -- But I must now assure you that not only do I have a clear vision but I am also doing research almost 18 hrs per day at this time prior to making any decisions.  As far as cruise trips I have a 20 person study group that is currently being paid to go on approx 120 cruise trips over the next 4 months with various cruise companies around the world. 

SeaBird

As a note on my past I have founded, built and either sold or taken public nine technology companies and have managed up to and around 1800 people, if you have any time please have a google or yahoo for “Kris Land” this might help with your understanding.


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## boyblue (Oct 19, 2006)

SeaBird said:
			
		

> if you have any time please have a google or yahoo for “Kris Land” this might help with your understanding.



Funny - I was just in the process of doing that...

Sooooooo, How much did you sell Land-5 for 

btw, sorry to about going off topic for a sec (actually I'm putting together some observations as I send this post)


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## boyblue (Oct 19, 2006)

I've passed over this thread a million times because we're just not the cruise types.  For some reason I decided to check it out today.  Interesting!

My observations:

1) Only developers with a track record should attempt pre construction sales.  The one exception is if you have the funds to pull this off but start selling early to get a head start on the process.  In that case sales proceeds should be held by an independent entity until the ship goes into service.  If buyer knows that the project doesn’t hinge on his proceeds he/she would buy a whole lot quicker.

2) The name Seabirdadventures kinda gives away your hand but it's good to see that you are considering other options.  I wouldn't think it would be a good idea to paint yourself into any one niche.

3)  Luxury has become standard on cruise ships so large rooms are a must.  If you’re dealing with the North American market, a private bath/shower is a must.  Europeans are cool with the shared bath – but not the folks on this side of the pond.  

4)  Windows could be the key to your success.  From what I can tell (couldn’t access a picture) your cabins will be below deck, so there is only so much you can do about installing large windows.  That being said, the bigger the windows, the better.  If there are any rooms above deck (if the budget & the hull can take it, I’d suggest you add a deck or two) how about large windows that can be opened that would give the feeling of sitting on a veranda?  Large windows above or below deck would also give the old girl a new look aesthetically.  Done right she should look like a new vessel.

5) I would think that the thing that drives the cruise industry is destination.  Although luxury is an important consideration and adventure is an excellent addition, your main selling point should be the variety of locations you get with one ownership.  As you mentioned this ship can go places where the big ships can’t; so {as an example} don’t come to Nassau, Bahamas go to Exuma or other unspoiled locations around the world.

Another thing, being in the right place at the right time can make your ship priceless.  How about New York for New Years, New Orleans for Mardi Gras, Miami or San Diego for the Super Bowl, Daytona for Bike Week .  To summarize my point here, there are ports-of-call at certain times of year (or even year round), where there is far more demand than units available.  Why not fill existing demand?

6) I wouldn’t go with any of the week options fixed or floating because it would limit your options as far as scheduling.


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## SeaBird (Oct 22, 2006)

BoyBlue,

Thank you for your thought and ideas, I especially like the idea of main events timing, I wonder what the ports of call would be like during those times... hmmm

I don't understand point 6, if I don’t' sell weeks are you suggesting points?

Thank again, Sea Bird


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## JudyS (Oct 23, 2006)

SeaBird said:
			
		

> ....As far as cruise trips I have a 20 person study group that is currently being paid to go on approx 120 cruise trips over the next 4 months with various cruise companies around the world. .....


Wow, that sounds like a great job!  Need any TUG members for that?


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## SeaBird (Oct 24, 2006)

Judy,

  sorry the research folks were picked about 3 months ago and the assigments have already been given out.  However as we progress there may be openings and if that happens i'll send you a post.

Seabird


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## JudyS (Oct 26, 2006)

SeaBird said:
			
		

> Judy,
> 
> sorry the research folks were picked about 3 months ago and the assigments have already been given out.  However as we progress there may be openings and if that happens i'll send you a post.
> 
> Seabird


That's really nice!  Thank you!

As for Boyblue's post, I can't speak for him, but I do think he was suggesting a points-based system.   A large number of timeshares have moved to points-based systems of various types.  Points just offers far more flexibility than weeks.


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## SeaBird (Oct 27, 2006)

Hello All you Tuggers,

Any more opinions on the following two points...

Luxary V.S. Adventure?

and

Points V.S. floating week?


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## JudyS (Oct 30, 2006)

SeaBird said:
			
		

> Hello All you Tuggers,
> 
> Any more opinions on the following two points...
> 
> ...


I think the adventure market is probably a different demographic that timeshare owners.  The adventure market strikes me as very young and budget-minded -- college kids, for example.  Timeshare owners tend to be more luxury-oriented and probably age 40 or above, for the most part.  Of the various ideas mentioned here, the one I liked best was going to smaller ports in areas such as the Carribean or Hawaii.

Like Boyblue, I see Points as having a lot of advantages.   Points are far more flexible than weeks.


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## boyblue (Oct 31, 2006)

With point 6, I was suggesting that weeks ownership will limit you to 7, 14 & 21 day voyages.  Points would have no such constraints.  You can plan the year without trying to fit the voyages into neat little 7 day slots.


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## SeaBird (Nov 1, 2006)

*Sounds Like Poitns may be the best...?*



			
				boyblue said:
			
		

> With point 6, I was suggesting that weeks ownership will limit you to 7, 14 & 21 day voyages.  Points would have no such constraints.  You can plan the year without trying to fit the voyages into neat little 7 day slots.



There were earlier discussions about points and different ways to do them, do you have any ideas that you would like to see on implementation?  Anyone else?

Seabird


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## jjking42 (Nov 2, 2006)

luxury ship
points system

thats the way to go.
also email me if you are looking to hire more test cruisers

we have done alaska before we had kids but nothing with kids yet

I am wondering about cruising for families / disney is making great headway there and others are now building kids clubs and waterparks on boats. Dont forget the kids. Maybe you could contract with disney and run a disney adventure/ education cruise.

cool idea I hope it works


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## Neesie (Nov 2, 2006)

No. No way. Not in a million years.  

Give me beautiful, luxury, spacious accomodations somewhere on LAND that I really want to be.  Not on the Mister Roberts ship!!!!


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## SeaBird (Nov 6, 2006)

jjking42,

Thank you for your input, this seems to be the consensus -- now to figure out how many points is correct and fair.  More fun research.  I am very curious what people are paying for points and what everyones opinion would be for the quantity of points for 7 days on a luxary ship?

Thanks in advance, Sea Bird.


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## SeaBird (Nov 6, 2006)

Neesie,

Thanks for your input 

Sea Bird


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## taffy19 (Nov 6, 2006)

*Points sound the best to me*



			
				SeaBird said:
			
		

> There were earlier discussions about points and different ways to do them, do you have any ideas that you would like to see on implementation? Anyone else?
> 
> Seabird


SeaBird, points would be the best way to go because you can make the trip last long or short too. It would be much more flexible than selling it by the week. 

If your schedule is flexible, you can take your boat anywhere you like to go to and you can change your destination much easier than a large cruise ship can. However, will you find enough timeshare buyers for your ship? I still believe that chartering may be easier to do or both. Make it half charter and half a timeshare ship.  

Have you thought about doing a survey under travel agents and get their feed-back too? You can buy a list or have people contact them by phone and ask if you can send a survey.

I would also love to go on these cruises to find out what you want us to find out or I can do a survery for you while taking a cruise for you.  

However, I can tell you right now that for myself I like my comfort and a ship with lot's of entertainment and activities too and restaurants to choose from but younger people may like to go to places that cruise ships can not go to and experience a true *adventure*.  

I am very curious what you will decide to do with your ship. I hope you will let us know.

Here is another example of what I mean and she has quite a history too. They use her for sailing lessons and they take trips to far away places. I was lucky to sail her once as an invited guest many years ago.


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## J9sling (Nov 7, 2006)

Seabird, 

This sounds like a very interesting, unique idea.  I especially like the idea of a luxury/adventure combo type of cruise.  If I want ultimate luxury I will pick one of the big ships.  However, my husband would probably love a ship that would take us on trips that the big ships can't ...ideally to some of the smaller ports.  There are a lot of people out there who will do nothing but cruise (we like both).  However, I don't think that we would be interested in ownership.  Go to this site to do some research and ask further questions of die hard cruisers:  http://boards.cruisecritic.com/ 

Good luck!

Jennie


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## SeaBird (Nov 11, 2006)

iconnections, thank you, great information.

Any idea what the structure for the point systems should look like? 

Quantity, cost, groups, breakdown of point to time?

Anybody else that is on a point based time share please let me know what you think.

Thanks, SeaBird


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## SeaBird (Nov 11, 2006)

Jennie, thank you

Yes the small port interesting area would be the practice, additionally scuba, snorkeling, sea life learning etc. would be on the to do list.  Would you be interest in a point purchase with trading privileges?

Seabird


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## SeaBird (Nov 15, 2006)

*What is known of "Vacation Register Timeshare"*

These are the folks sponsored by Ed Mc Mann, and they seem to have a strong desire to manage the time share process for the 10 cabins maybe 15 that we might do for the seabird.

Any comments on this company?

SeaBird


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## Stefa (Nov 15, 2006)

SeaBird said:
			
		

> These are the folks sponsored by Ed Mc Mann, and they seem to have a strong desire to manage the time share process for the 10 cabins maybe 15 that we might do for the seabird.
> 
> Any comments on this company?
> 
> SeaBird



SeaBird

Vacation Register charges timeshare owners an upfront fee to market their timeshare for rent or sale.  There is no incentive to actually produce any results since they already have your money.  I have contacted them a couple of times and my impression from the people I've dealt with is that they don't know anything about the timeshares they are supposedly marketing.   For example, I've seen timeshare resales listed at higher prices than the developer is currently asking.   Go check them out on the BBB, keeping in mind that most consumers who feel they have been wronged by a business don't bother to complain...


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