# 72 Year Old Thrown Out of LIH Bar



## Kauai Kid (Oct 31, 2009)

I saw a 72 year old red headed Irish lady in a wheelchair rolled out of the Lihue Airport Bar by two embarassed security cops because she refused to show the server a photo ID.  "It is our policy that everyone must show a photo ID"

She said "My policy is that I don't deal with stupid policies.  I'm a great grandmother and my photo ID is buried in my carryon" 

Everyone in the place, except for the bleached blonde manager and server, looked real embarassed.

I wonder how soon she will fly from Ireland to Kauai??

I'll never use that bar again.  No common sense.


Sterling


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## DaveNV (Oct 31, 2009)

Similar thing happened to me a few weeks ago in an airport bar in Las Vegas.  The bartender insisted on seeing my photo ID.  Excuse me?  I'm in my 50s.  About as "legal" as it ever gets.  When I smiled and questioned him on it, he shrugged and rudely said, "Our policy.  If you don't like it, leave."  

Well, okay then!  Don't spend all that non-existent tip I'm giving you in one place!

Dave


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## Kauai Kid (Oct 31, 2009)

I can sorta understand that happening in Vegas but on Kauai???


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## kwilson (Oct 31, 2009)

Had the same problem last year in the Seattle airport. The ID wasn't the only problem. I was toting 2 carry-ons (DW & mine) and my laptop. Of course they are ALWAYS to be kept in sight. The bartender first told me not to put them on my table, not on chairs of adjoining tables, then not on the floor. When I asked him where, I got "not my problem". I told the bartender where to put it and moved on to the next bar, where I reluctantly accepted if I wanted that $9 glass of wine I'd better pony up. I am 73


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## DeniseM (Oct 31, 2009)

While it seems ridiculous, many areas have this law and the server can get in a lot of trouble for violating liquor laws.  If the customer refuses, and the server doesn't require it, the server can lose their job.  Usually, when the server puts the order in their computer system, they have to indicate that they checked the ID.  If they falsify the records, and get caught in a sting, they are in big, big trouble, with a fine for the server, a fine for the bar, and a warning against their license.   Unfortunate, but true.


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## Palguy (Oct 31, 2009)

DeniseM said:


> While it seems ridiculous, many areas have this law and the server can get in a lot of trouble for violating liquor laws.  If the customer refuses, and the server doesn't require it, the server can lose their job.  Usually, when the server puts the order in their computer system, they have to indicate that they checked the ID.  If they falsify the records, and get caught in a sting, they are in big, big trouble, with a fine for the server, a fine for the bar, and a warning against their license.   Unfortunate, but true.


 I could not agree more, the current laws require I.D. regardless of age in a lot of areas. Besides that, with all the hoops a 72 year old in a wheelchair has to jump through with TSA just to get to the bar, I would think she would just show the I.D. and enjoy the needed drink. It couldn't be any worse than the TSA I.D. process.


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## LisaRex (Oct 31, 2009)

In many jurisdictions, not only can bartenders and waiters lose their jobs for not asking for id's, but if caught serving a minor, they can be thrown in jail, and the establishment can lose its liquor license.  Ergo, some managers are establishing zero tolerance policies for checking id's.  No more "She _looked _over 21" excuses, or even "She looked like an octegenarian!" _Everyone _gets carded or you're out of a job.

Stupid? Yes.  But with zero tolerance laws, this is what you get.


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## DaveNV (Oct 31, 2009)

I can accept the zero tolerance policy and all.  What I objected to was the attitude of the bartender who asked for the ID.  He was pretty snotty about it.  The bar was not busy, and it was the middle of the day.  There were maybe three other patrons.  If he'd taken a moment to explain it was a required rule, I'd have been more willing to play along.  As it was, he basically told me to show my ID or get out.  That came across as pretty unnecessary.

Maybe if someone in Kauai had explained the same thing to the lady in the wheelchair, things may have gone differently.

Dave


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## DeniseM (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree - the law, and the employee's attitude, are two completely different issues.


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## Kauai Kid (Oct 31, 2009)

All it would have taken I bet was a comment "This is a stupid law ma'm but I have to ask for your ID no matter how old you are.  Otherwise, I loose my job".

Sterling


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## ricoba (Oct 31, 2009)

In my view it's just another example of zero tolerance run amok. 

Because they have to card a younger person, grandpa & grandma get carded too in an effort to follow the rules to an extreme and be fair to all...kind of a sad commentary on things in my view...,,but if I was asked to show ID, I'd pull out my wallet and do so in spite of how silly the rule may be


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## Kauai Kid (Oct 31, 2009)

Like I mentioned--she said her purse was deep within her carry on.  It isn't easy for a woman apparently paralyzed from a stroke to whip it out.  Her right arm appeared to be non functional.

All in all, I suspect it was the attitude of the server that got her Irish dander up.

Here in Austin a seventy something woman got mad at a cop for giving her a ticket and he used his Taser on her.   Also two TSA Austin security employees "gang tackled" a seventy something woman who objected to TSA employees checking her breasts for bombs! 

Got to be careful, those 70+ year old women are a really dangerous threat to law abiding citizens.

The Irish lady was lucky, I guess.


Sterling


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## DaveNV (Nov 1, 2009)

Kauai Kid said:


> Got to be careful, those 70+ year old women are a really dangerous threat to law abiding citizens.
> 
> Sterling



And some police officers:  Wasn't Zsa Zsa Gabor in her 70s when she slapped that police officer in Hollywood?

Dave


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## AKE (Nov 1, 2009)

Common sense has to prevail - we have seen the same type of rules being applied in Hawaii and elsewhere.  I can understand if a person is 30 or 40 BUT when you are a senior citizen then it borders on the ludicrous.  Lawmakers who make such laws should look at them from the perspective of a senior citizen and see how much sense such laws make.


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## jestme (Nov 1, 2009)

Common sense isn't all that common these days. In my view, the standard 15-18% tip would become uncommon as well with that attitude.


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## Icc5 (Nov 1, 2009)

*Lock up*

We are under the same rules and our machines lock up if we don't put in the info. (grocery store selling liquor).  The best way around it is to post notices at the door that state by law, everyone buying liquor will be carded).
Bart


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## cissy (Nov 1, 2009)

*common sense?*

My guess is that if the employee weren't required to ask for id, he wouldn't.  I, for one, am tired of people thinking that just because they are older, or a grandparent, should not be required to follow the law.  Grandparents are wonderful, but what does that have to do with anything?  And, by the way, I am no spring chicken myself.


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## kapish (Nov 1, 2009)

If you see the same grandma get a thorough security check at the TSA counter and see her getting upset, would you not fly again? 

It is the law! Comply and move on...


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## "Roger" (Nov 1, 2009)

Kauai Kid said:


> All it would have taken I bet was a comment "This is a stupid law ma'm but I have to ask for your ID no matter how old you are.  Otherwise, I loose my job".
> 
> Sterling


Why does the employee have to say it is a _stupid_ law? I know of gas stations that have the policy that everyone must show an ID to buy cigarettes and a supermarket that requires everyone to be IDed to buy liquor.  Having talked to employees at one gas station and at the supermarket, they say that they get into far fewer disputes by having a flat out requirement that everyone must show their ID.


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## Kauai Kid (Nov 1, 2009)

The server made no mention that it was the law, just "I need to see your ID, it is our policy." She had the tact of Atilla the Hun.


Sterling


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## kapish (Nov 1, 2009)

Also, though it's attention-grabbing, this thread's title "*72 Year Old Thrown Out of LIH Bar*" is far from true - she refused to abide by the rule and left the bar on her own. No one threw her out!


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## Bill4728 (Nov 1, 2009)

Kauai Kid said:


> All it would have taken I bet was a comment "This is a stupid law ma'm but I have to ask for your ID no matter how old you are.  Otherwise, I loose my job".
> 
> Sterling





			
				Roger said:
			
		

> Why does the employee have to say it is a stupid law?


But it is stupid to have to show ID which says you're over 21 when you're in your 70s

Last fall, the governor of the state of Washington could not be served because she didn't have her ID.

PS it isn't a law but a policy of the bar.


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## "Roger" (Nov 1, 2009)

Bill4728 said:


> ...
> PS it isn't a law but a policy of the bar.


First of all, with regard to the PS, I used the word "law" because that was the word used in the quote I was responding to. (Look at the first quote in your own post.)

I'm sorry, but the experiences of the workers in the trenches is that it is just cleaner if they have to ID everyone.  

Yes, at times it seems ridiculous.  By way of comparison, I went through an airport screening when a 76 year old nun was pulled out for a random check.  Her ID clearly identified her as a nun.  As stupid as that might have seemed, I preferred that to the time when I was travelling with a close friend of Arab decent who went through a grilling as he went through security. He was obviously being singled out because of his accent and darker skin. I was embarassed for him. If it had been a random screening or something that everyone went through, that would have been a different story.

Finally, it doesn't bother me at all that the governor of Washington was denied a drink for not carrying an ID.  I care more about the pressure put on the twenty five year old who has to decide whether to challenge someone who looks like she is probably in her late twenties but can't be sure. They get into some pretty snippy situations. At the same time (at least in the case of checking ID's when buying cigarettes at a gas station), I was told that the number of times when someone tried to cheat (claim that they were old enough) almost disappeared when it was understood that everyone would be IDed. The young attendent that I talked to was MUCH happier when that became policy.


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## LisaRex (Nov 2, 2009)

"Roger" said:


> Yes, at times it seems ridiculous.  By way of comparison, I went through an airport screening when a 76 year old nun was pulled out for a random check.  Her ID clearly identified her as a nun.  As stupid as that might have seemed, I preferred that to the time when I was travelling with a close friend of Arab decent who went through a grilling as he went through security. He was obviously being singled out because of his accent and darker skin. I was embarassed for him. If it had been a random screening or something that everyone went through, that would have been a different story.



You're kind of contradicting yourself here.  On the one hand, you're saying that it's stupid that they conducted a search on a nun, because I presume you believe that a nun would be an unlikely terrorist. On the other hand, you decry the fact that your friend was targeted for a search because he looked a certain way. 

So do you want truly random searches, which by definition means that nuns and elderly people and even children will be subjected to extra scrutiny, or do you want targeted searches, which would mean that people like your friend, who fit a certain profile (red flags would include: male, 20ish, Middle Eastern, Muslim, foreign born, no checked-in luggage, one-way ticket, paid with cash), would be subjected to extra scrutiny more often?

I don't know the answer here, I'm just wondering how you think a reasonable society ought to implement safety checks.  

FWIW, my husband has been subjected to additional screenings searches more often than not, including one screening where they took apart his laptop.  And he's a blonde haired, blue eyed Ohioan.  Personally, I think it's the hostility he exudes...because he's sick of being pulled aside every time he goes through TSA.


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## Jim Bryan (Nov 2, 2009)

It's all in how your asked. I don't suffer jerks for a second.


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## Kenrabs (Nov 2, 2009)

I work part time in a liquor store and have to side with those doing their jobs. They don't set the policy they just enforce it. It's not that big a deal to flash an ID. You should be asked in a pleasant manner and in return you should provide the ID with no issue. There is no need for attitude on either parties side since it is a simple policy to follow.


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## HatTrick (Nov 2, 2009)

Kauai Kid said:


> Everyone in the place, except for the bleached blonde manager and server, looked real embarassed.



Would her attitude have been more appropriate had she been a brunette?


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## tombo (Nov 2, 2009)

They have a rough job and they usually make low wages.They have a boss who tells them to ID everyone, even if they like like they are 100 years old. Why make their job harder than it has to be and make everyone miserable? When they ask you for an ID just show it to them.

I qualify for an AARP membership but I am still asked for ID often when I buy alcohol in stores or restaurants. I just smile and tell the clerk or waiter/waitress that I wish that they really had a shadow of doubt about whether I was actually 21 years or older. They usually respond that they know that I am over 21 but have to see my ID anyway. I simply say no problem and present my ID. However every now and then the person will grin and respond that they couldn't be sure because I look so young. We will both laugh and I will show them my ID and tell them it was a good thing they checked because I am just barely old enough to drink.


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## GoIllini (Nov 4, 2009)

tombo said:


> They have a rough job and they usually make low wages.They have a boss who tells them to ID everyone, even if they like like they are 100 years old. Why make their job harder than it has to be and make everyone miserable? When they ask you for an ID just show it to them.


Well, they could earn more if they had the tact to apologize and say they were required to follow this policy rather than enforce it with a certain kind of ego.  I suffer foolishness and arrogance/rudeness easily when they are separate, but it is hard for me to suffer them both at the same time.  My customer service friends say I'm a pretty easy-to-deal-with customer when I go shopping or to restaurants with them, so if you don't work around the less intelligent policies with tact, it will be hard for you to work with customers.

I try to handle these situations graciously as every customer should, but I also don't tolerate the combination of rudeness and foolishness very well.  I don't think any customer, employer, client, or even employee does.  If you're competently doing something that clearly makes a lot of sense and you're snarky, that's one thing.  If you have to enforce something that's clearly stupid, on the other hand, please try to be nice when you do so.



> I qualify for an AARP membership but I am still asked for ID often when I buy alcohol in stores or restaurants. I just smile and tell the clerk or waiter/waitress that I wish that they really had a shadow of doubt about whether I was actually 21 years or older. They usually respond that they know that I am over 21 but have to see my ID anyway. I simply say no problem and present my ID. However every now and then the person will grin and respond that they couldn't be sure because I look so young. We will both laugh and I will show them my ID and tell them it was a good thing they checked because I am just barely old enough to drink.


That's totally cool, but when it's obvious that I'm over 21 and I don't have my ID and I'm not trying to get someone to serve me without ID after being told no, the server shouldn't be rude if she wants me to ever come back again let alone give her a 20% tip.


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## LisaRex (Nov 4, 2009)

GoIllini said:


> That's totally cool, but when it's obvious that I'm over 21 and I don't have my ID and I'm not trying to get someone to serve me without ID after being told no, the server shouldn't be rude if she wants me to ever come back again let alone give her a 20% tip.



Unless I missed something, there was absolutely no indication in the OP that the server was _rude_:

"I saw a 72 year old red headed Irish lady in a wheelchair rolled out of the Lihue Airport Bar by two embarassed security cops because she refused to show the server a photo ID. "It is our policy that everyone must show a photo ID"

She said "My policy is that I don't deal with stupid policies. I'm a great grandmother and my photo ID is buried in my carryon" 

Everyone in the place, except for the bleached blonde manager and server, looked real embarassed."


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## Bill4728 (Nov 4, 2009)

LisaRex said:


> Unless I missed something, there was absolutely no indication in the OP that the server was _rude_:
> 
> "I saw a 72 year old red headed Irish lady in a wheelchair rolled out of the Lihue Airport Bar by two embarassed security cops because she refused to show the server a photo ID. "It is our policy that everyone must show a photo ID"
> 
> ...


*Everyone in the place, except for the bleached blonde manager and server, looked real embarassed."
*  I think that most people are assuming that this line shows the server & Manager were not pleasant about their actions.


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## thheath (Nov 4, 2009)

*Dorothy this ain't Kansas...*

Living in Kauai I have learned that dealing with the locals in this type of situation isn't like interactions back on the mainland.  If the elderly lady gave the server even the slightest grief they would have shut down on her.  

On Kauai if you try to give an employee the slightest heat they will show you the door and more often then not management will back them up.  I witnessed a lady from California giving an employee grief (for a legitimate reason) and they threatened to call the cops on her.

Dorothy this ain't Kansas...


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## Luanne (Nov 4, 2009)

Bill4728 said:


> *Everyone in the place, except for the bleached blonde manager and server, looked real embarassed."
> *  I think that most people are assuming that this line shows the server & Manager were not pleasant about their actions.



Or, it was the interpretation of the person posting.


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## GoIllini (Nov 4, 2009)

thheath said:


> Living in Kauai I have learned that dealing with the locals in this type of situation isn't like interactions back on the mainland.  If the elderly lady gave the server even the slightest grief they would have shut down on her.
> 
> On Kauai if you try to give an employee the slightest heat they will show you the door and more often then not management will back them up.  I witnessed a lady from California giving an employee grief (for a legitimate reason) and they threatened to call the cops on her.
> 
> Dorothy this ain't Kansas...


This sounds more like a snobby Manhattan night club than the Hawaii I remember.  Maybe I will escape to Wisconsin on my next vacation, instead.

It's typically a bad idea to escalate the situation with an unhappy customer.  (It's also usually a bad idea for an unhappy customer to escalate the situation until they're in a constructive mood).  Fighting with a customer or kicking them out can typically do a lot of damage to your reputation whether or not you're right and tends to make for a poor financial decision unless you're trying to cultivate a reputation for arrogance and indifference to your clientele.  (CC: night clubs.)  If I saw someone kicked out of a bar for a snarky comment, I would have been tempted to quietly pay my bill and go somewhere more friendly.

Yes, it's unacceptable for customers to be rude, but it looks really ugly to kick someone out.



> She said "My policy is that I don't deal with stupid policies. I'm a great grandmother and my photo ID is buried in my carryon"


I assumed she said this with a smile.  I thought the self-depreciating joke was pretty funny, although I can understand how it might be interpreted differently based on the first sentence.  If I were the bartender, I would have laughed and helped her dig the photo ID out.

In any case, I spent six years in small business, and if I learned one thing, it's "THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT."  The paying customer is allowed to be snarky; the folks in customer service generally aren't, unless the business owner thinks he can make money by making customers angry.


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## esk444 (Nov 4, 2009)

ricoba said:


> In my view it's just another example of zero tolerance run amok.
> 
> Because they have to card a younger person, grandpa & grandma get carded too in an effort to follow the rules to an extreme and be fair to all...kind of a sad commentary on things in my view...,,but if I was asked to show ID, I'd pull out my wallet and do so in spite of how silly the rule may be



In my old hometown, most places had a 35 year old policy.  Meaning if you looked at least 35 years old, you didn't need to show your ID.  The rule now is you have to show ID regardless.  Why?

Because servers, bartenders, bouncers, and store clerks had a nasty habit of asking 50 year old black men and women for their IDs, but not white patrons.  A couple lawsuits later, no smart business owner would want to risk a lawsuit or damage to their reputation because of an idiot employee.


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## sjuhawk_jd (Nov 4, 2009)

GoIllini said:


> ...
> 
> In any case, I spent six years in small business, and if I learned one thing, it's "THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT."  The paying customer is allowed to be snarky; the folks in customer service generally aren't, unless the business owner thinks he can make money by making customers angry.



The problem with most businesses these days is that you are dealing with a "$8/hour wage" employee and not the owner. These hourly part-time employees have no vested interest in the success/failure of the business. They get their hourly wage. If this bar is not successful for some reason (difficult to see that for an airport bar), they will just get a similar job somewhere else. In worst case, they can always declare bankruptcy if they are not able to hold a job anywhere due to lack of customer service and basic skills in courtesy.


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## GoIllini (Nov 4, 2009)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> The problem with most businesses these days is that you are dealing with a "$8/hour wage" employee and not the owner. These hourly part-time employees have no vested interest in the success/failure of the business. They get their hourly wage. If this bar is not successful for some reason (difficult to see that for an airport bar), they will just get a similar job somewhere else. In worst case, they can always declare bankruptcy if they are not able to hold a job anywhere due to lack of customer service and basic skills in courtesy.


Exactly, so my question is: Where is the owner or other person with a vested interest in the bar/restaurant?


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## thheath (Nov 4, 2009)

GoIllini said:


> Exactly, so my question is: Where is the owner or other person with a vested interest in the bar/restaurant?



Reread post #32, that's the way things are here, normal rules do not apply.


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## GoIllini (Nov 4, 2009)

thheath said:


> Reread post #32, that's the way things are here, normal rules do not apply.


So the proprietors on Kauai get a special kick out of causing conflict and scaring away money?  I don't get it.


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## thheath (Nov 4, 2009)

GoIllini said:


> So the proprietors on Kauai get a special kick out of causing conflict and scaring away money?  I don't get it.



It's difficult to describe the dynamics here.  In a nut shell there is a love hate relationship shown towards tourist here; normal rules of business and common sense do not apply.


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## nazclk (Nov 5, 2009)

*Hawaii in General*

I think the below statement makes the case of why the tourism industry in Hawaii is in the toilet, besides being so expensive just to get there.  

*************

Living in Kauai I have learned that dealing with the locals in this type of situation isn't like interactions back on the mainland. If the elderly lady gave the server even the slightest grief they would have shut down on her. 

On Kauai if you try to give an employee the slightest heat they will show you the door and more often then not management will back them up. I witnessed a lady from California giving an employee grief (for a legitimate reason) and they threatened to call the cops on her.

**************


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## ricoba (Nov 5, 2009)

esk444 said:


> In my old hometown, most places had a 35 year old policy.  Meaning if you looked at least 35 years old, you didn't need to show your ID.  The rule now is you have to show ID regardless.  Why?
> 
> Because servers, bartenders, bouncers, and store clerks had a nasty habit of asking 50 year old black men and women for their IDs, but not white patrons.  A couple lawsuits later, no smart business owner would want to risk a lawsuit or damage to their reputation because of an idiot employee.



Wow, that's sad.  ...so yes, I agree there is a need in such circumstances to apply to the rule to all without prejudice.  

But that is a sad commentary on the way things are or were in some places.

Thank you for sharing that insight.


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## slabeaume (Nov 12, 2009)

I would assume that the manager isn't too concerned about returning customers in an airport bar.  But I also don't see the problem with requiring everyone to show ID's if that's their policy.


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## Mimi39 (Nov 13, 2009)

I had this happen at the Washington/Dullas airport in September.  I'm 70 years old.  What upset me was that other people weren't being asked for ID, including my husband.  If everyone is asked, ok, fine with me, but I felt I was being ridiculed and discriminated against due to my age and gender!


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## AKE (Nov 13, 2009)

Is it the law that you must ask for ID or is it up to the establishment to set the rules?  We just came back from Maui, Kauai and Oahu and were never asked for ID in any of the restaurants / bars BUT we only went to high end hotels.  Similarly we were not asked for ID in the grocery store on Maui or Kauai when we bought liquor but we have been asked in Maui in the past as well as at the airport in Oahu.


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## nazclk (Nov 13, 2009)

*ID*

I think it's an airport thing,  I was carded at Chili's at LAX  about 6 months ago and I to am an old fart.


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## thheath (Nov 13, 2009)

AKE said:


> Is it the law that you must ask for ID or is it up to the establishment to set the rules?  We just came back from Maui, Kauai and Oahu and were never asked for ID in any of the restaurants / bars BUT we only went to high end hotels.  Similarly we were not asked for ID in the grocery store on Maui or Kauai when we bought liquor but we have been asked in Maui in the past as well as at the airport in Oahu.



No it is not the law in Hawaii.


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## Henry M. (Nov 13, 2009)

A couple of years ago my then 72 year old father was carded everywhere on Maui where we wanted to purchase alcoholic beverages, even at the Safeway supermarket. At the time there seemed to be some push to enforce a law that required positive ID regardless of age. This year I wasn't carded anywhere. The enforcement of the ID issue seems to vary in cycles over time.

Without having witnessed the event it is hard to judge who was right. All we have is hearsay, and a description of the end of the event. There are some pretty ornery 72 year olds as well as poor attitude bartenders. I find that in most of these cases there is plenty of blame to be placed on both sides of the issue. Who knows which party started the "attitude" problem, and how it escalated from the first exchange of words.


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