# New Wyndham timeshare owner within cancellation period - need some quick advice!



## HitchHiker71 (Jun 29, 2018)

All, just joined this forum a few minutes ago and am looking for some advice over this weekend.  We were just vacationing in Myrtle Beach and ended up purchasing 126k annual points from Wyndham Destinations via one of their presentations, plus 174000 bonus points all effective 10/1/2018, plus two  vacation weeks through RCI, and 45000 Wyndham rewards points good for three free days at any of their hotels/resorts.  

We are still within the five day cancellation period and while my wife very much wanted to do the deal, I’m trying to determine if we should consider cancellation and then going a different route to accomplish the same thing.  I’m not sure of the forum rules here so I don’t want to post pricing unless we are allowed to do so (anyone?), but am happy to share what we paid for this package if allowable.  

Also happy to share any additional details that I can provide as well - so feel free to ask questions.  Many thanks in advance for your help! 

EDIT:  we have full Wyndham VIP membership thrown in through 2020, along with permanent RCI membership, Club Wyndham Plus assignment, ARP for 66 resorts within the contracted resort network, etc.  

We liked the concept of some of the VIP benefits but did not want to commit to the alleged 400k point barrier required to gain permanent VIP status right out of the gate. 

Basically what I did not have time to determine is if it is possible to somehow obtain VIP via a resale purchase as opposed to a developer purchase.  Of course the sales folks said not possible, but of course they would say that to get the sale.  They also said that any benefits we earned as a result of a developer purchase would then also apply to a resale purchase, any truth to this?  I’m very suspect of the entire sales process hence my questions.

What is a decent developer points purchase rate for Wyndham Vacation Ownership Club?    They rate them on a per 1000 points basis on the contract from what we saw during negotiations.  I did my best to listen to others nearby and it seemed as though no one was seeing anything under $145/1000 developer points.  

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## capital city (Jun 29, 2018)

Rescind now. And yes you can include pricing its just against the rules in this section to list for sales.


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## Jan M. (Jun 29, 2018)

Rescind. You won't regret it, ever!


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 30, 2018)

capital city said:


> Rescind now. And yes you can include pricing its just against the rules in this section to list for sales.



Got it, basically the contract was at $145 per 1000 points or just under 20k all in.  

If we don’t purchase developer based points, is there a way to obtain the VIP program benefits, or does that really not make much of a difference in reality?


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## jumoe (Jun 30, 2018)

This entire thread from a few days ago has very similar questions with answers (from Richelle) about VIP.
https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...day-without-understanding-help-please.275402/

And a second thread about resale and VIP:
https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...-how-does-vip-work.275098/page-3#post-2157723


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## bnoble (Jun 30, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> If we don’t purchase developer based points, is there a way to obtain the VIP program benefits, or does that really not make much of a difference in reality?


No, there isn't. They definitely have some value, but given the difference between resale and developer pricing, it's hard to justify them on a dollar-for-dollar basis.

Rescind, do your research. If you call them three to six months from now and tell them you are ready to sign again under exactly the terms you have right now, my guess is that they will fall all over themselves to write it up. And, you might decide that's what you want. But, you might decide resale is a better value for you instead.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 30, 2018)

bnoble said:


> No, there isn't. They definitely have some value, but given the difference between resale and developer pricing, it's hard to justify them on a dollar-for-dollar basis.
> 
> Rescind, do your research. If you call them three to six months from now and tell them you are ready to sign again under exactly the terms you have right now, my guess is that they will fall all over themselves to write it up. And, you might decide that's what you want. But, you might decide resale is a better value for you instead.



Got it, I will probably follow the rescind instructions tomorrow after reading the links to the other similar threads just now.  

So only developer points will gain certain VIP status levels basically, but what are the PIC references about?  What does PIC refer to and how can this be leveraged for VIP levels? 

Also, if we assume for a moment that developer points are required, what is a “good” or acceptable price for developer points?  I saw reference to using the WCA telesales center as a preferable way to purchase developer points in one thread.  Don’t ever use the local sales centers in other words.  True?

Is the $145/1000 developer points in my current contract a bad price?  If so, what is a good price for developer points in comparison for WCA?

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## Jan M. (Jun 30, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Don’t ever use the local sales centers in other words. Tru



This is the phone number Richelle posted for Wyndham corporate telesales 800-786-6764. You can private message Richelle for the email address and the name of her person in corporate telesales. If you look in the New Directory thread you should be able to find a link Richelle posted for the new directory. If not ask her to send it to you. You can read through the details of PIC Plus and also VIP benefits. 

Now about VIP. If you don't have at least some flexibility with your vacation schedule and can't book and travel within 60 days of the check in dates then the discounts for VIP and free upgrades won't likely be of benefit to you. If you will frequently need the larger 3 or 4 bedroom units you would likely have to book them 10-13 months out so again the VIP benefits won't be of much use to you. Same thing applies if you would frequently be wanting Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter or special event weeks particularly in the larger units. If you fit into these categories then you would be wasting your money and should just buy resale.

If you make a purchase you can PIC Plus 2 weeks. Make very sure you only go for PIC Plus. The only thing PIC Express is good for is getting VIP status for 5 years and you can't even use the points from them as Wyndham points. 

You would need to get two weeks at a resort in RCI. Three bedrooms will get you the most PIC PLUS points towards VIP. You can find weeks that people are giving away or selling quite cheaply. Sometimes you might get them for little to nothing over the closing costs or the seller might even split the closing costs. You would at least want these weeks to be under contract before you signed your deal with Wyndham in my opinion. I know of people who have had great luck getting weeks cheaply through Sumday. Sumday sells on eBay but you can also look them up online to get a phone number to go through them directly. I know of a couple of people who have gotten weeks in three bedroom units at Camelback Resort in Scottsdale, AZ. The maintenance fees at this resort are pretty good too. You can contact the real estate office at Camelback and buy resale weeks directly through them. You might pay a little more but you will get better weeks which is never a bad thing if you want to get rid of them down the road. And I expect they would close faster too. Williamsburg Plantation is another resort that is accepted in PIC Plus and has larger units and good maintenance fees. 

I don't know if you can buy deeded points not just Club Wyndham Access points through telesales but that is something I would ask. Many resorts that you might get Club Wyndham Select deeded points at have lower maintenance fees than CWA.

If they offer you a bigger deal, meaning more money, that will get you VIP gold instead of silver, I highly recommend going for it. You can usually get a deal that will come with enough bonus points to get you the next level VIP status for two years. At the end of that time if you saw the value in having that higher VIP level you could go back to telesales to make another purchase to make it permanent and maybe even get to try out the next higher level of VIP for two years with more bonus points.


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## Braindead (Jun 30, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Also, if we assume for a moment that developer points are required, what is a “good” or acceptable price for developer points?  I saw reference to using the WCA telesales center as a preferable way to purchase developer points in one thread.  Don’t ever use the local sales centers in other words.  True?
> Is the $145/1000 developer points in my current contract a bad price?  If so, what is a good price for developer points in comparison for WCA?


$145 per 1k points is low for buying from Wyndham whether it’s at a resort or telesales. I would say the lowest price you can currently get but someone might of made a better deal.
That doesn’t mean I’m endorsing that you buy from Wyndham instead of using PICs or buy resale.
Rescind until you decide what is right thing for YOU. If you do decide you want to buy from Wyndham I would go back to your salesperson if you liked them instead of telesales because they did give you an excellent deal on developer points.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 30, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> This is the phone number Richelle posted for Wyndham corporate telesales 800-786-6764. You can private message Richelle for the email address and the name of her person in corporate telesales. If you look in the New Directory thread you should be able to find a link Richelle posted for the new directory. If not ask her to send it to you. You can read through the details of PIC Plus and also VIP benefits.
> 
> Now about VIP. If you don't have at least some flexibility with your vacation schedule and can't book and travel within 60 days of the check in dates then the discounts for VIP and free upgrades won't likely be of benefit to you. If you will frequently need the larger 3 or 4 bedroom units you would likely have to book them 10-13 months out so again the VIP benefits won't be of much use to you. Same thing applies if you would frequently be wanting Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter or special event weeks particularly in the larger units. If you fit into these categories then you would be wasting your money and should just buy resale.
> 
> ...



Thanks so much for all of the advice!  To answer your question, we anticipate that our approach to using timeshare will be a bit of both.  We wanted the ARP capacity for our family vacations that will require larger units sometimes (at least a two bedroom lockout), to allow booking up to 13 months out in the 66 resorts under WCA currently, however when it’s just wifey and I traveling then we can and will often take advantage of the under 60 day discounted deals with free upgrades for ourselves.  If the kids can come along last minute on those bookings then so much the better but sometimes we just want it for the two of us.  Our kids are 23, 21 and 18 so we are nearing the empty nester stage where our vacations will be a mix of family events and/or weekend getaways for us as a couple primarily.

Interesting that you mention CWS MF’s being lower than WCA.  Our MF’s under current contract are 5.76/1000 points.  I saw a few WCS resales when searching around last night and noticed their MF’s were a bit lower as you said.  Thanks for the tip!

What’s required for the VIP Gold level as opposed to Silver in so far as points go?  VIP Silver starts at 400k points yes?  


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## bendadin (Jun 30, 2018)

126K developer plus 175K bonus doesn't get you VIP at all. You need 400k for Silver, 700k for Gold, a 1 million for platinum. Do you have that in writing?


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 30, 2018)

Braindead said:


> $145 per 1k points is low for buying from Wyndham whether it’s at a resort or telesales. I would say the lowest price you can currently get but someone might of made a better deal.
> That doesn’t mean I’m endorsing that you buy from Wyndham instead of using PICs or buy resale.
> Rescind until you decide what is right thing for YOU. If you do decide you want to buy from Wyndham I would go back to your salesperson if you liked them instead of telesales because they did give you an excellent deal on developer points.



Yes, honestly I didn’t find our sales guy to be all that bad.  I mean I don’t like the entire sales approach and the overall practices used but I know enough about sales to feel out when I’m getting screwed vs not screwed.  I hammered on these guys up to the director level for six hours on the day in question.  I’ve got all of their cellphones for direct contact.  I’ve got points freeze lock in pricing through 2020 as well.   The sales guy said he hasn’t seen pricing this low since he started there six years ago, but again I feel like that’s a sales tactic and nothing more hence my skepticism.  After about two hours of none of their usual tactics working, I actually charted out the design of their sales practices on a piece of paper in detail based upon my past experience in market based sales and my training - and after that they segmented us off from the larger crowd and started treating us differently.  

My key concern here is to figure out whether I got screwed on the price/rate from WCA direct and it sounds like we did OK at least.  Now I have to decide our path forward beyond that one criteria.  Bigger picture my plan was to buy in to get VIP status through Sept 2020 to try it out and see how much we actually used the VIP benefits.  If we made significant use of them then we would consider additional developer points based upon actual experience and usage.  All other points I would source from resale.  I even brought up several resale deals during the negotiations to show the huge price delta which helped to drive the developer pricing down, but they wouldn’t budge any lower than $145/1000 points.


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## tschwa2 (Jun 30, 2018)

It seems like Wyndham would be a good fit for you so the real question is will you move up to permanent VIP or not.  If not then no need to by any retail points.  

My question is can you afford what you just bought with no financing or paying it off within a year or so.  If you are financing then you shouldn't be buying retail Wyndham points at this time.  Either buy resale or wait until you can buy without financing.

If you can afford what you bought and want to test drive the VIP benefits, a less expensive way would be to rescind what you bought.  Call and tell them you are still interested in Wyndham and want to try a Discovery package.  You pay a flat fee of around $3000-$4000.  You get points with VIP benefits that are good for 12, 18, or 24 months depending on the package.  You have to attend at least one more sales meeting.  At the end you have the option of using what you paid toward retail points purchase - which could include a PIC contract to get you to VIP faster and for less money or you can say thanks but no thanks.  It is more expensive then just buying resale but it does allow you to test drive VIP for less than your current retail purchase and doesn't have any mandatory commitment beyond the 12, 18 or 24 month term.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 30, 2018)

bendadin said:


> 126K developer plus 175K bonus doesn't get you VIP at all. You need 400k for Silver, 700k for Gold, a 1 million for platinum. Do you have that in writing?



You are correct under normal circumstances, however this was one of the requirements I lobbied for during negotiations.  The bonus points contract section has a clause that states and I quote:  “Buyer will also be eligible for Club Wyndham Plus VIP status through Bonus Points End Date.”  The end date is 9-30-2020.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 30, 2018)

tschwa2 said:


> It seems like Wyndham would be a good fit for you so the real question is will you move up to permanent VIP or not.  If not then no need to by any retail points.
> 
> My question is can you afford what you just bought with no financing or paying it off within a year or so.  If you are financing then you shouldn't be buying retail Wyndham points at this time.  Either buy resale or wait until you can buy without financing.
> 
> If you can afford what you bought and want to test drive the VIP benefits, a less expensive way would be to rescind what you bought.  Call and tell them you are still interested in Wyndham and want to try a Discovery package.  You pay a flat fee of around $3000-$4000.  You get points with VIP benefits that are good for 12, 18, or 24 months depending on the package.  You have to attend at least one more sales meeting.  At the end you have the option of using what you paid toward retail points purchase - which could include a PIC contract to get you to VIP faster and for less money or you can say thanks but no thanks.  It is more expensive then just buying resale but it does allow you to test drive VIP for less than your current retail purchase and doesn't have any mandatory commitment beyond the 12, 18 or 24 month term.



We paid cash essentially so it’s not a financing issue for us.  Well actually we put the entire balance on the Wyndham Rewards credit card with six months zero interest promotional period with a 20k line of credit just to earn the rewards points on the initial purchase - we also have the MFs auto-billing to this same card.  We could pay it off tomorrow with zero issues so this was just a choice on our parts to help offset the MFs right out of the gate.

Interesting that you mention the Discovery package.  We currently have a 9000 point Sampler pack through BG for this same reason.  I asked about a similar deal from Wyndham and was not told about the Discovery package.  Will have to look into this option now.  Many thanks!


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 30, 2018)

All, what’s the best resource to learn more about PIC?  What does this acronym even stand for?  I understand I can use PIC transactions from non-Wyndham timeshares acquisitions to transfer points and earn points that will actually apply toward VIP status?  Any help you experts can provide on PIC or links you can post so that I can learn more would be most appreciated! 


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## Jan M. (Jun 30, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> All, what’s the best resource to learn more about PIC?  What does this acronym even stand for?  I understand I can use PIC transactions from non-Wyndham timeshares acquisitions to transfer points and earn points that will actually apply toward VIP status?  Any help you experts can provide on PIC or links you can post so that I can learn more would be most appreciated!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



This is from the new directory.

*Personal Interval Choice (PIC) Plus Program*
Personal Interval Choice (PIC) Plus provides you the opportunity to enroll qualified non-Wyndham timeshare weeks affiliated with RCI® and make them a part of the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus program. You may enroll a maximum of 2 weeks in the PIC Plus program. More information about enrollment is available by visiting a Member Services representative at your nearest CLUB WYNDHAM resort. Once you enroll your non-Wyndham week in PIC Plus, your week will be allocated a point value based on the unit size. Please refer to the PIC Plus Allocations chart below. The point value of your enrolled week(s) counts toward CLUB WYNDHAM Plus VIP eligibility.

PIC Plus Allocations UNIT SIZE POINT VALUE/POINTS CREDITED TOWARD VIP
Studio 70,000
1 Bedroom 105,000
2 Bedroom 154,000
3 Bedroom or more 254,000

Each year you can choose how you would like to use your PIC Plus week(s):
• Vacation at your non-CLUB WYNDHAM “home” resort
• Exchange it with RCI • Exchange it for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus points Important Information
• You must be current in both your assessment fees and your yearly maintenance fees in order to request an exchange.
• An $89 exchange fee is required to complete the PIC Plus exchange.
• You must call RCI at least 9 months prior to the scheduled start date of your week and make an exchange request. Once accepted RCI will send you a Deposit Acknowledgment card. You may also request RCI’s auto deposit option and sign the appropriate documents to get enrolled for annual renewal.
• Once you receive the Deposit Acknowledgment card from RCI, call your Vacation Planning Center at 800-251-8736 to complete the exchange. You will select whether you want to receive the points in the current Use Year or the following Use Year, and the appropriate amount of points will be deposited into your CLUB WYNDHAM Plus account. These points will expire at the end of the selected Use Year.
• Once points are deposited into your account, the number of points and benefits you have available for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Standard and Express Reservations, Worldwide External Exchange, PlusPartners, Charitable Gift and WYNDHAM Club Pass will be increased by the amount of points associated with your PIC Plus contract for the Use Year chosen.
• In order to maintain the accuracy of your account, your non-Wyndham weeks enrolled in PIC Plus will be subject to an annual verification process. If your week no longer meets the eligibility requirements for enrollment, it will be removed from the PIC Plus program.
• PIC Plus contracts are nontransferable.
Eligibility Requirements: Membership in the PIC Plus Program is available with a new vacation ownership purchase from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or to CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Members who pay the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee. In order to be eligible, non-Wyndham week(s) must be: (1) affiliated with RCI and (2) not currently participating in a points-based program, including RCI Points. Members will be responsible for maintenance fees on their nonWyndham week(s).


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 30, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> Eligibility Requirements: Membership in the PIC Plus Program is available with a new vacation ownership purchase from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or to CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Members who pay the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee. In order to be eligible, non-Wyndham week(s) must be: (1) affiliated with RCI and (2) not currently participating in a points-based program, including RCI Points. Members will be responsible for maintenance fees on their nonWyndham week(s).



Thanks so much Jan!  Exactly what I needed for PIC!

Regarding the eligibility requirements quoted above, I believe I am a Club Wyndham Plus member already as part of my current contract.  How much is the PIC Plus membership enrollment fee?  This option certainly seems cheaper than having to make another developer points purchase.

If for whatever reason I have to make a developer points purchase, I’m wondering since I have points freeze purchase protection under current contract, if I do end up having to purchase the minimum amount of 49k developer points to qualify for a PIC transfer, would I pay $145/1000 points?  $7150 is certainly cheaper than the 10K I’m seeing elsewhere for that same 49k points. 

Lastly, where are the best sites online to hunt for 3-bedroom PIC transfer eligible timeshares?


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## Jan M. (Jun 30, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Thanks so much Jan!  Exactly what I needed for PIC!
> 
> Regarding the eligibility requirements quoted above, I believe I am a Club Wyndham Plus member already as part of my current contract.  How much is the PIC Plus membership enrollment fee?  This option certainly seems cheaper than having to make another developer points purchase.
> 
> ...



PIC Plus or even PIC Express can only be done with a new developer purchase and you didn't get that written in as part of your deal. You will need to rescind this deal and start over.

I think Richelle posted in the PIC thread that the enrollment fee is either $89 or $98.

Good places to look are here on TUG both in the Bargain Deals under the Buying, Selling, Renting forum and the regular listings of what is for sale. Look on eBay. Contact both Sumday and the real estate office for the Camelback Resort. Remember that the weeks must be at a resort in RCI.


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## Avislo (Jun 30, 2018)

Or, if you are looking at VIP Status on a long-term basis, keep what you have and just buy another developer purchase with PIC Plus, not PIC Express, as part of the deal.  Follow what you want to do.


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## Railman83 (Jun 30, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Thanks so much Jan!  Exactly what I needed for PIC!
> 
> Regarding the eligibility requirements quoted above, I believe I am a Club Wyndham Plus member already as part of my current contract.  How much is the PIC Plus membership enrollment fee?  This option certainly seems cheaper than having to make another developer points purchase.
> 
> ...


I have a 78K Myrtle Beach I was planning on giving away in January if that gives you any idea what the worth is.   I probably could squeeze a few bucks but not worth the effort.

Once you have rescinded I would follow EBay and Tug Marketplace for about 3 months and buy then.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 1, 2018)

Avislo said:


> Or, if you are looking at VIP Status on a long-term basis, keep what you have and just buy another developer purchase with PIC Plus, not PIC Express, as part of the deal.  Follow what you want to do.



Thanks very much Avislo.  After extensive conversations between DW and I yesterday, she is OK with either keeping the current contract or rescinding, however we collectively did agree that for most of our non-family planned vacations, we would make good use of the 60 day windows and last minute booking specials that come with VIP program benefits.  Not a final decision but I have until tomorrow to rescind.  

For a moment, let’s assume that VIP permanent benefits are important to us and that’s what we want here.  As far as I can tell,  the best way to get to 700k points is to leverage two PIC transactions for 508k total points, and then purchase 192k developer points all total.  I don’t currently see any other way to obtain those 192k developer points without a direct purchase.  True?

Specific to the PIC transaction, I am getting conflicting info on the requirement.  Does each PIC transaction require a minimum 49k point purchase?  So if I PIC two 3 bdrm fixed week RCI TS’s it would require 49k x 2 = 98k additional developer points?  Why I’m asking is if this is actually the requirement and I were to keep our current contract of 126k points, then I’d end up with 732k points total using current assumptions which is 32k more points than we actually need to obtain VIP gold.  Or could we keep the current contract and then simply purchase 66k more developer points under a single contract that would include both PIC transactions?

I have already reached out to my current sales guy and he is looking into this for me now as well, but certainly want to leverage the wisdom of some tuggers who have done this before! 

I also have my sales guy looking into if I can leverage my current contract points freeze pricing at $145/1000 for a second PIC contract instead of having to pay the full 10K/49000 amount through telesales.


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## Braindead (Jul 1, 2018)

You need to rescind if your going with PICs. 
Unless you get everything confirmed in a signed email:
1. On the additional 66k points to enroll two PICs.
2. Price freeze.
3. Can PICs be bought as resales.
4. Get a deadline on the date you have make the additional 66k purchase with enrolling the PICs by. How long is this deal available 

Wyndham could change the requirement of how many points have to be purchased to enroll PICs tomorrow.
You may not even hear back before your rescission deadline.


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## Jan M. (Jul 1, 2018)

HitchHiker71 please rescind this deal. You should wait until you have the weeks you want to PIC at least under contract. You aren't getting any special deal that won't be offered to you again. So many of us have made subsequent developer purchases to fix something that wasn't done correctly. I can clearly see that is where you are headed. 

I think I can speak for pretty much everyone here on TUG. You won't ever be sorry if you rescind, get your PIC weeks purchased and then go back and make a deal. You may even by that time have decided that it is in your best interest to purchase a larger point package than the one you are looking at now.


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## harveyhaddixfan (Jul 1, 2018)

There’s always the buy resale and pay the fee (it was stated in another thread that it was $2395 or $2495, can’t remember) to PIC a week. It all depends on if you feel VIP benefits are worth it? I’m personally looking for a small annual contract to bridge what I can’t get in RCI already.


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## Braindead (Jul 1, 2018)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> There’s always the buy resale and pay the fee (it was stated in another thread that it was $2395 or $2495, can’t remember) to PIC a week. It all depends on if you feel VIP benefits are worth it? I’m personally looking for a small annual contract to bridge what I can’t get in RCI already.


I don’t think that paying the fee to enroll a PIC Plus is an available option.
The only option that has been confirmed for enrolling in PIC Plus is you have to buy points from Wyndham directly when enrolling your week in the program.


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## harveyhaddixfan (Jul 1, 2018)

Braindead said:


> I don’t think that paying the fee to enroll a PIC Plus is an available option.
> The only option that has been confirmed for enrolling in PIC Plus is you have to buy points from Wyndham directly when enrolling your week in the program.



From page 293 of the new 2018-19 directory:

Eligibility Requirements: Membership in the PIC Plus Program is available with a new vacation ownership purchase from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or to CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Members who pay the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee. In order to be eligible, non-Wyndham week(s) must be: (1) affiliated with RCI and (2) not currently participating in a points-based program, including RCI Points. Members will be responsible for maintenance fees on their non- Wyndham week(s).


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 1, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> HitchHiker71 please rescind this deal. You should wait until you have the weeks you want to PIC at least under contract. You aren't getting any special deal that won't be offered to you again. So many of us have made subsequent developer purchases to fix something that wasn't done correctly. I can clearly see that is where you are headed.
> 
> I think I can speak for pretty much everyone here on TUG. You won't ever be sorry if you rescind, get your PIC weeks purchased and then go back and make a deal. You may even by that time have decided that it is in your best interest to purchase a larger point package than the one you are looking at now.



Thanks Jan, I am leaning in that direction and already have the rescind letter drafted just to be clear, but in the interim since it’s Sunday and I cannot send the certified mail today figured I would try and get some additional advice using certain assumptions.  

My ideal at this point is to rescind, find my two PIC TS deals, and then go back and obtain 192k developer points along with the PIC deals at the same time.


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## Braindead (Jul 1, 2018)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> From page 293 of the new 2018-19 directory:
> 
> Eligibility Requirements: Membership in the PIC Plus Program is available with a new vacation ownership purchase from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or to CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Members who pay the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee. In order to be eligible, non-Wyndham week(s) must be: (1) affiliated with RCI and (2) not currently participating in a points-based program, including RCI Points. Members will be responsible for maintenance fees on their non- Wyndham week(s).


I know what the directory states but no one lately has been told that’s even an option when they ask.
By all reports you have to make a points purchase to enroll a week in the PIC Plus program


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## Braindead (Jul 1, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> My ideal at this point is to rescind, find my two PIC TS deals, and then go back and obtain 192k developer points along with the PIC deals at the same time.


You need to confirm that your PIC weeks can be resale before buying.
Someone claimed in another thread that you can no longer use weeks bought resale for the PIC Program
There’s been a lot of attention here lately on the PIC program.
It seems Wyndham has been responding to a lot of topics here lately and if they did indeed make the policy change to NOT allow resale weeks to be used in the PIC program wouldn’t surprise me.
Do your homework and get confirmation from Wyndham via email before buying weeks in anticipation of them being eligible for the PIC Plus program


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 1, 2018)

Braindead said:


> You need to confirm that your PIC weeks can be resale before buying.
> Someone claimed in another thread that you can no longer use weeks bought resale for the PIC Program
> There’s been a lot of attention here lately on the PIC program.
> It seems Wyndham has been responding to a lot of topics here lately and if they did indeed make the policy change to NOT allow resale weeks to be used in the PIC program wouldn’t surprise me.
> Do your homework and get confirmation from Wyndham via email before buying weeks in anticipation of them being eligible for the PIC Plus program



BD I agree 100%.  My salesman has offered to personally check each PIC TS before I pursue any purchase to determine eligibility.  Any other recommendations on how to specifically validate PIC eligibility?  Get it in writing as usual is the number one rule of course.


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## paxsarah (Jul 1, 2018)

Braindead said:


> You need to confirm that your PIC weeks can be resale before buying.
> Someone claimed in another thread that you can no longer use weeks bought resale for the PIC Program



I think that person on the other thread either misspoke or doesn't know what they're talking about. They have 8 posts here. I don't even know how Wyndham would know how someone purchased the non-Wyndham week they're using for PIC.


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## Braindead (Jul 1, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> BD I agree 100%.  My salesman has offered to personally check each PIC TS before I pursue any purchase to determine eligibility.  Any other recommendations on how to specifically validate PIC eligibility?  Get it in writing as usual is the number one rule of course.


No other recommendations for you on validating the week is eligible.  Wyndham determines the eligibility thats the only answer you need.
Recommendations for what you buy for a PIC week:
3bdr
Jan M mentioned a couple of resorts.
The best PIC week would be a week you would want for yourself and you might end up using that week some years instead of exchanging it for Wyndham points.
 Pay attention to MFs. 3bdr gets 254k points at $5.00 per 1k MFs is $1,270.00. Keep MFs around $1,100 a year on your PIC week add the PIC program fee you’ll be a little under $5.00 per 1k point MF which is very good. You will find PIC weeks with lower MFs just make sure it’s a week you wouldn’t mind owning. If you look at previous PIC threads a poster posted a link to an eBay ad of 3bdrs with $700.00 annual MFs but I have no knowledge on the resort.


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## tschwa2 (Jul 1, 2018)

paxsarah said:


> I think that person on the other thread either misspoke or doesn't know what they're talking about. They have 8 posts here. I don't even know how Wyndham would know how someone purchased the non-Wyndham week they're using for PIC.


I agree.  I don't doubt a salesperson said something to this effect because the point of the PIC program wasn't for someone to buy cheap 3 br properties with low MF's as a pathway to VIP for a lot less (just a program that savvy potential owners can exploit), it was developed as a way to overcome the objection to buying that the buyer already owned a non Wyndham property and didn't want to be paying MF for multiple systems.  This way already owning was a way to jump start the wyndham ownership since theoretically that buyer already paid a lot of money to buy the timeshares he/she already owned. The program doesn't have any provisions to allow or deny access based on how the potential wyndham buyer purchased the other timeshare or how much money was actually spent.


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## Cyrus24 (Jul 1, 2018)

Braindead said:


> The best PIC week would be a week you would want for yourself and you might end up using that week some years instead of exchanging it for Wyndham points.


I would add that HitchHiker71 may want to purchase a week in a high season for more trading power in the RCI weeks system.  You do not have to PIC each resort each year, so more trading power is something to consider.


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## Richelle (Jul 1, 2018)

My four bedroom was $28 on eBay.  The maintenance fees are $849 (there are cheaper ones out there).  I added it with a direct purchase and I get 254,000 VIP eligible points. I did this one month ago. There is no PIC enrollment fee with a new purchase. I could enroll it before it even finished transfering to me. It’s on there now. There is an exchange fee of $89. The points are symbolic unless you pay the $89 fee to convert them into points. In other words, for them to count towards VIP, it doesn’t cost you anything. If you want to use those points to make a reservation, there is an $89 for each week, every year you do it. With PIC, you do not have to pay the fee unless you want the points. You do not have to pay a fee for them to count towards VIP. You do have a Wyndham program fee you have pay on them every year which is the same fee you pay for your points. 58 cents for every 1,000 points. That’s regardless of if you covert them or not. Some people chose to use their fixed week, rather then exchange it. You can do either.  I would rescind and research. Message me if you want a one on one conversation. Rescind though if you have not already. You can get Silver with PIC for fairly cheap and still get bonus points.


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## Richelle (Jul 1, 2018)

Braindead said:


> No other recommendations for you on validating the week is eligible.  Wyndham determines the eligibility thats the only answer you need.
> Recommendations for what you buy for a PIC week:
> 3bdr
> Jan M mentioned a couple of resorts.
> ...




I just want to add, it would be best to chose a gold crown resort, especially if it’s a location you’d want to travel to. No one wants to own a dump.


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## tschwa2 (Jul 1, 2018)

Richelle said:


> I just want to add, it would be best to chose a gold crown resort, especially if it’s a location you’d want to travel to. No one wants to own a dump.


and a dump with MF's that are too low to adequately maintain the property is more likely to either have a future Special assessment for refurbs and delayed maintenance or risk losing RCI affiliation.  If a resort loses RCI affiliation the PIC contract is void.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 1, 2018)

Richelle said:


> My four bedroom was $28 on eBay.  The maintenance fees are $849 (there are cheaper ones out there).  I added it with a direct purchase and I get 254,000 VIP eligible points. I did this one month ago. There is no PIC enrollment fee with a new purchase. I could enroll it before it even finished transfering to me. It’s on there now. There is an exchange fee of $89. The points are symbolic unless you pay the $89 fee to convert them into points. In other words, for them to count towards VIP, it doesn’t cost you anything. If you want to use those points to make a reservation, there is an $89 for each week, every year you do it. With PIC, you do not have to pay the fee unless you want the points. You do not have to pay a fee for them to count towards VIP. You do have a Wyndham program fee you have pay on them every year which is the same fee you pay for your points. 58 cents for every 1,000 points. That’s regardless of if you covert them or not. Some people chose to use their fixed week, rather then exchange it. You can do either.  I would rescind and research. Message me if you want a one on one conversation. Rescind though if you have not already. You can get Silver with PIC for fairly cheap and still get bonus points.



What direct developer purchase did you make along with your PIC?  How many points and what was your dollar/1000 points price paid?  Feel free to PM me if you would rather not share details like this on the public forums.  Thanks so much for posting this info! 


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## Richelle (Jul 2, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> What direct developer purchase did you make along with your PIC?  How many points and what was your dollar/1000 points price paid?  Feel free to PM me if you would rather not share details like this on the public forums.  Thanks so much for posting this info!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I replied to your PM. I bought National Harbor points which have less of a discount then CWA. If you are looking for cheap, go with CWA. The telesales May have a contract that they are looking to unload that will be cheaper. Those are usually higher MF resorts so be careful. 


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## Jan M. (Jul 2, 2018)

Richelle said:


> I replied to your PM. I bought National Harbor points which have less of a discount then CWA. If you are looking for cheap, go with CWA. The telesales May have a contract that they are looking to unload that will be cheaper. Those are usually higher MF resorts so be careful.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



As I, Ron and OP have pointed out it is important to look at the maintenance fees vs the purchase price. Some people like CWA for the booking window they get for the inventory that is in CWA, some people say they are able to get the reservations they want with no problems with the CWS deeded points at resorts that have lower maintenance fees and some people have a mix of both that they feel covers all the bases for their needs.

If you own a say million points or more in CWA or at  high maintenance fee resort then the higher maintenance fees really add up and quickly. If you own say 300,000 or less points and got a cheap, cheap deal then it would likely take so many years for the higher maintenance fees to add up that it wouldn't be a big factor. My rule of thumb is that if a higher purchase price to get lower maintenance fees can be recovered in 5 years or less in what you will save over that time period on the lower maintenance fees then it is the better deal and a no brainer for anyone. If there were other factors to be considered, like ARP at a resort that I would want every year at a peak time, then even 6 or 7 years could be something I would have to think long and hard to decide if it was worth it to me. Depending on the person's age, how many points they own, their experience with timeshares, Wyndham in particular, some people are even comfortable with up to 10 years to recover the additional money spent to have lower maintenance fees. To me it boils down to having the knowledge you need to be an informed buyer and make the best choice for you.

My other rule of thumb is that it is better to have larger point deeds or contracts. The program fees are lower. It never seems to take long before you discover you will want and need more points if you buy a smaller point deed or contract. And imo more people want the larger point deeds and contracts making it easier to get rid of them down the road. You will see a number of people posting about re-doing their portfolios of what they own. They are often getting rid of the smaller point or higher maintenance fee deeds or contracts. This can be an excellent opportunity for another newbie like they once were to pick up something for very little money, gain experience with how the system works and what their needs will be.

Always remember that Wyndham is constantly getting more inventory. If you want a larger point deed or contract or a deed at a resort with maintenance fees under a certain amount, keep calling. Ask your contact person to call or email you if they see what you are looking for. Make sure you are prepared to move on the right deal immediately when they contact you and let your contact person know that you will do just that.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 2, 2018)

Richelle said:


> I replied to your PM. I bought National Harbor points which have less of a discount then CWA. If you are looking for cheap, go with CWA. The telesales May have a contract that they are looking to unload that will be cheaper. Those are usually higher MF resorts so be careful.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Got it.  Why did you choose National Harbor?  I’ve attended several conferences there over the years and we are looking to stay at the Wyndham resort there as one of our first bookings once we become owners post rescind.

I’ve got the letter printed out along with a copy of the 1st and last page of the contract and will be going to the post office today to send via certified priority mail! 


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## Braindead (Jul 2, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> As I, Ron and OP have pointed out it is important to look at the maintenance fees vs the purchase price. Some people like CWA for the booking window they get for the inventory that is in CWA, some people say they are able to get the reservations they want with no problems with the CWS deeded points at resorts that have lower maintenance fees and some people have a mix of both that they feel covers all the bases for their needs.
> 
> If you own a say million points or more in CWA or at  high maintenance fee resort then the higher maintenance fees really add up and quickly. If you own say 300,000 or less points and got a cheap, cheap deal then it would likely take so many years for the higher maintenance fees to add up that it wouldn't be a big factor. My rule of thumb is that if a higher purchase price to get lower maintenance fees can be recovered in 5 years or less in what you will save over that time period on the lower maintenance fees then it is the better deal and a no brainer for anyone. If there were other factors to be considered, like ARP at a resort that I would want every year at a peak time, then even 6 or 7 years could be something I would have to think long and hard to decide if it was worth it to me. Depending on the person's age, how many points they own, their experience with timeshares, Wyndham in particular, some people are even comfortable with up to 10 years to recover the additional money spent to have lower maintenance fees. To me it boils down to having the knowledge you need to be an informed buyer and make the best choice for you.
> 
> ...





HitchHiker71 said:


> Got it.  Why did you choose National Harbor?  I’ve attended several conferences there over the years and we are looking to stay at the Wyndham resort there as one of our first bookings once we become owners post rescind.
> 
> I’ve got the letter printed out along with a copy of the 1st and last page of the contract and will be going to the post office today to send via certified priority mail!
> 
> ...


I’m going to chime in here. Jan M makes an excellent point on upfront purchase price versus MF cost.

MFs on a low MF resale contracts will usually pay for themselves in 5 years or less:
If you buy a low MF contract for $10.00 per 1k points that has yearly MFs $2.00 less per 1k points than a free contract.
That purchase paid for itself in 5 years and will be more valuable and easier to dispose of if you want out someday.

On a direct purchase from Wyndham:
Buy a CWA contract for $145 per 1k points.
Buy a National Harbor or other low MF contract for $200 per 1k points
Now your break even is over 25 years and that’s even figuring 0% interest on your $

My recommendation is if your going to buy from Wyndham buy CWA
If your buying resale buy low MF. Unless you just have to have ARP at a certain resort.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 2, 2018)

Ok just finished up at the post office sending certified mail with return receipt requested post marked today.  The letter will be delivered to the physical address listed in the contract on Thursday of this week.  Would have been Wednesday except for the July 4 holiday.  Will keep you all posted on status of rescind! 


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 2, 2018)

Braindead said:


> I’m going to chime in here. Jan M makes an excellent point on upfront purchase price versus MF cost.
> 
> MFs on a low MF resale contracts will usually pay for themselves in 5 years or less:
> If you buy a low MF contract for $10.00 per 1k points that has yearly MFs $2.00 less per 1k points than a free contract.
> ...



Got it, great advice!  Lots to work on as I await response to rescission letter.  

One decision point on a path forward I’m grappling with is whether it’s better to simply pick up one or two larger points resale contracts with lower MFs and simply start using the points system and then, at a later point, after actually proving out our usage of the Wyndham system, consider a developer purchase for VIP status.  Bypass the whole PIC option for now and just use points.

Then again, we could pick up two PIC units for 508k points and we would already qualify for VIP Silver straight out of the gate.  But we would have to purchase a minimum of 98k points (59k for each PIC week) which would still require roughly 20k up front for the developer points.  

Decisions decisions...


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## Richelle (Jul 2, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Got it.  Why did you choose National Harbor?  I’ve attended several conferences there over the years and we are looking to stay at the Wyndham resort there as one of our first bookings once we become owners post rescind.
> 
> I’ve got the letter printed out along with a copy of the 1st and last page of the contract and will be going to the post office today to send via certified priority mail!
> 
> ...



Two main reasons.  First, National Harbor has lower mf.  I have a large enough contract where the MF difference between high and low MF resorts starts to make a difference.  The new purchase and PIC addition has lowered my maintenance fees by $758 a year or $63 a month.   I originally had 182k patriots place, 308k Branson and 210k PIC.  700k total, but 308k were resale so only grandfather silver.  Now i have 292k National Harbor, one pic worth 154 and a second worth 254.  I am dumping the Branson contract.  I still have 700k points but all count towards VIP and I save $63 a month in maintenance fees.  I had to buy more points to make that happen though.  The savings on MF alone would take over 20 years to recoup that upfront cost assuming the gap remained the same.  However, I switched because upfront costs are short term and the lodging fees help with the ROI as well.  MF costs are long term.  If I run into a financial bind down the road, I will be glad I have lower fees.  Hopefully that financial bind wont last long, because then I would have to dump the timeshare.  That brings me to a second reason I chose national Harbor.  Ovations would take it back in a heart beat because it's so popular for the low fees.  I could not say the same for Patriots Place or Branson.  CWA should have that benefit too.  There is never a guarantee, but they will take CWA over some old resort that no one goes to, or has high fees.  If I decide to sell national harbor, I'd get more for it then CWA.  At least so long as the fees are lower then the majority of the resorts.  Of course, I'd never get back what I spent.  I might get a few grand for it, and I could probably get the buyer to pay the closing and transfer fees.  Even if I paid  6 months worth of fees while waiting for the transfer to complete, I'd still walk away with a couple grand.  Far cry from what I spent on it, but I have options.  Ovations if i need to dump it fast, or ebay if i want to make a little bit off of it.  

For a newbie, they can get a small package, so they can enroll in PIC, but I don't know what the smallest national harbor contract they will sell is.  It's pretty costly points wise to stay at National Harbor, so they may make you get a larger contract then 49,000.  The telesales person would be able to answer that better.  What i was saying about CWA is, if you are looking for a cheap way to get started, CWA contracts are fairly cheap.  Since it's going to be a small package, go CWA.  The MF difference between national harbor and CWA on a 100,000 point contract is about $105 a year or $8.75 a month.  A 100k national harbor contract would run about $190 per 1k points through telesales.  That's $19,000.  The most recent price point I've heard for CWA is $140 per 1k ponts.  So $14,000 for a 100,000 point contract.  Is saving 8.75 a month worth the extra $5k?  That's up to you.  To Jan's point, the larger contract you get, the bigger the difference is, and a lower MF contract starts to be worth it, but for the long term.  Bigger contracts mean bigger upfront costs.  Short term, CWA is still cheaper.  A million point CWA contract would cost about $140,000.  A million point National harbor is about $190,000.  MF savings per month would be $87.5 a month.  Is $50k worth that?  Only you can say what is good for you.  You might be like me and care about long term over short term.  I know I can afford to buy a new contract now.  I don't know if i would be able to afford Branson five years from now.  You might be like others who care about upfront costs.  I look at both.  If I was only doing a small package, i would have gone CWA because it doesn't make a big difference.   Since i got a larger one, i went with the one that will cost me less in the long term.  I am not worried about 8.75 a month.  I care more about $63 a month.


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## Braindead (Jul 2, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> One decision point on a path forward I’m grappling with is whether it’s better to simply pick up one or two larger points resale contracts with lower MFs and simply start using the points system and then, at a later point, after actually proving out our usage of the Wyndham system, consider a developer purchase for VIP status.  Bypass the whole PIC option for now and just use points.


Resale first and try the Wyndham product is the path I and others have taken.
Then we found we liked the Wyndham product and learned a lot here for a year or more.
Then bought from Wyndham as an informed buyer to achieve VIP levels.
I will also add if your elderly and have no children or grandkids that want your ownership someday NEVER buy from Wyndham. Resale is the only option you should consider.

CWA is a good product if you have kids - grandkids in school for the ARP at over 70 resorts.


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## Richelle (Jul 2, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Got it, great advice!  Lots to work on as I await response to rescission letter.
> 
> One decision point on a path forward I’m grappling with is whether it’s better to simply pick up one or two larger points resale contracts with lower MFs and simply start using the points system and then, at a later point, after actually proving out our usage of the Wyndham system, consider a developer purchase for VIP status.  Bypass the whole PIC option for now and just use points.
> 
> ...




Lets examine first option.  Both are not bad, but just wanted to throw in yet a few more points to consider.  If we compare apples to apples, we have to assume you are getting equal amount of points on either ebay or retail.  So two PICs plus minimum purchase is 606,000 points.  We are going to assume national harbor since the rate is low.  A 1.29 million point contract went for $10k.  So approximately $11 per 1,000 points give or take.  So a 606,000 point contract would run you about $6,666, and you do not get VIP.  Maintenance fees would be $2,860 a year of $238.36 a month based on the current $4.72 per 1k points.

Short term (upfront) costs: $6,666 (assuming you pay no closing or transfer costs)
Long term costs: $2,860 per year in maintenance fees (not including future years increases)

10 year cost (not including MF increases): $35,266


Second option:


98,000 point National Harbor contract that retails at $190 per 1k points.  That would cost you $18,620 retail.  Maintenance fees $462.56 per year or 38.54 per month based on a rate of $4.72 per 1,000 points.

Then lets say you do, what i did, but twice.  Buy (2) three bedrooms for $28 each.  Total $56.  Maintenance fees for both, plus the Wyndham program fee $1,992 a year or $166 a month for 508,000 points.  If you want to compare apples to apples on maintenance fees, the maintenance fee rate for those 508,000 pic points is $3.92 per 1k points.

Short term (upfront costs): $18,676
Long term costs: 2,454.56 (not including maintenance increases)

10 year cost: $39,346

Not a huge price difference in the long term. We are not accounting for the VIP benefits of Silver.  Some say Silver is worthless, others say VIP in general is worthless.  Only you can put a dollar amount on the VIP benefits. Will you actually use them and will it be worth the extra $4k?  At the 20 year mark, the cost of resale becomes more then retail so:

Resale 20 year cost: $57,200
Retail 20 year cost: $49,091

If you have your time share for 20 years, the $4k difference goes away and you actually save money by going retail IF you do PIC.  If you go straight points, resale is always cheaper.

As Brainddead said, if you are elderly, never buy from Wyndham.  It will be harder for you to get 20 years, then someone who is in their 30's and 40's


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 2, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Lets examine first option.  Both are not bad, but just wanted to throw in yet a few more points to consider.  If we compare apples to apples, we have to assume you are getting equal amount of points on either ebay or retail.  So two PICs plus minimum purchase is 606,000 points.  We are going to assume national harbor since the rate is low.  A 1.29 million point contract went for $10k.  So approximately $11 per 1,000 points give or take.  So a 606,000 point contract would run you about $6,666, and you do not get VIP.  Maintenance fees would be $2,860 a year of $238.36 a month based on the current $4.72 per 1k points.
> 
> Short term (upfront) costs: $6,666 (assuming you pay no closing or transfer costs)
> Long term costs: $2,860 per year in maintenance fees (not including future years increases)
> ...



Thanks everyone for your continued scenarios and advice!  Learning a TON here!  

At this point I think it best to provide some demographics info.  DW and I are age 46 at present, three kids ages 23, 21, and 18.  23 year old daughter is done college and still living at home working full time to save money and figure out next steps for her life.  21 year old son is a rising senior in college heading into fall semester, living at home and working part time for funds and expenses.  18 year old son just graduated from high school and is taking a gap year to work full time and save money for pilot school next year while living at home.

So we are approaching empty nester stage over the next several years, hopefully by age 50.  We live in the mid-Atlantic region and are within a few hours drive of NYC, D.C., and VA areas.  We often take weekend getaways to the Poconos as one example.

We like the concept of TS because it promotes forced vacations on a regular schedule and will allow us a number of location options to choose from across the country since we do not yet know where our children will settle.  Eventually grandkids will become a reality and we would like to be able to use our TS for extended family vacations.  That is our vision, which is of course subject to change since we cannot ever predict what the future will hold.  

Ideally we will have enough income in retirement to afford the MFs and be able to vacation frequently as a couple on a regular basis and at times with our adult children and grandchildren.  Hope this helps provide some context to promote more specific advice! 

We are looking at a 20-30 year horizon for these vacationing investments.  I’m also not opposed to considering going Platinum or PR over time especially if doing so could actually allow us to help offset MF costs via renting points or weeks to others.  It seems like some here are doing this already and I would like to learn more about how to do so if feasible.


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## Richelle (Jul 2, 2018)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> There’s always the buy resale and pay the fee (it was stated in another thread that it was $2395 or $2495, can’t remember) to PIC a week. It all depends on if you feel VIP benefits are worth it? I’m personally looking for a small annual contract to bridge what I can’t get in RCI already.


It was me that posted the picture from the contract, but I also said I was told by multiple people that the only way you can enroll a PIC is with a new purchase. They could not tell me why that’s in there.


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## paxsarah (Jul 2, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Short term (upfront) costs: $6,666 (assuming you pay no closing or transfer costs)





Richelle said:


> Short term (upfront costs): $18,676



Another cost would be the return on the $12,000 you didn't spend upfront. I've tended to look at this only in the abstract if at all when looking at the break even analysis over time, until recently when we took some funds out of our investment account for a down payment on a new home, and I went back and looked at our investment returns since we first bought our resale points about 9 years ago. Obviously past performance is not an indicator of future returns, but over the nine-year period we averaged a 9% annual return and essentially doubled our account balance in that time. (This is a hands-off portfolio of several index funds with Vanguard, so nothing slick or unattainable.) Even if you assume a more modest 5% annual rate of return, it may take quite a while for the developer purchase to catch up, if ever.


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## Richelle (Jul 2, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Thanks everyone for your continued scenarios and advice!  Learning a TON here!
> 
> At this point I think it best to provide some demographics info.  DW and I are age 46 at present, three kids ages 23, 21, and 18.  23 year old daughter is done college and still living at home working full time to save money and figure out next steps for her life.  21 year old son is a rising senior in college heading into fall semester, living at home and working part time for funds and expenses.  18 year old son just graduated from high school and is taking a gap year to work full time and save money for pilot school next year while living at home.
> 
> ...


Always keep in mind that Wyndham can change the rules at anytime. The above scenerio is if nothing changes. Obviously MF always go up but I expect the low MF resorts to always remain the lower ones unless something changes. That’s the crux of it. Something always changes. I’m not saying don’t do it. I’m saying being prepared for the fact that things may change and assumptions may be thrown out the window. Maybe Wyndham decides to do away with the VIP program or changes the levels but doesn’t Grandfather anyone in this time. Maybe they decide to discontinue the PIC program. Who knows. Do what works for you now and expect that something will change. That way, you are less upset when it happens because you were expecting it.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 2, 2018)

paxsarah said:


> Another cost would be the return on the $12,000 you didn't spend upfront. I've tended to look at this only in the abstract if at all when looking at the break even analysis over time, until recently when we took some funds out of our investment account for a down payment on a new home, and I went back and looked at our investment returns since we first bought our resale points about 9 years ago. Obviously past performance is not an indicator of future returns, but over the nine-year period we averaged a 9% annual return and essentially doubled our account balance in that time. (This is a hands-off portfolio of several index funds with Vanguard, so nothing slick or unattainable.) Even if you assume a more modest 5% annual rate of return, it may take quite a while for the developer purchase to catch up, if ever.



There is always an opportunity cost for every transaction as you have indicated.  I went to school for finance and securities analysis so I’m used to running my own spreadsheet analytics when making financial decisions.  This is a big part of why I ended up deciding to rescind.  I did not follow my own best practices on this purchase and ultimately didn’t feel comfortable following through as a result.  DW very much wants to move forward with a TS deal, but understands we need to do so in an orderly fashion based upon solid due diligence over time.  As long as we are making forward progress over the next few months I think she will be happy. 


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## Richelle (Jul 2, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> There is always an opportunity cost for every transaction as you have indicated.  I went to school for finance and securities analysis so I’m used to running my own spreadsheet analytics when making financial decisions.  This is a big part of why I ended up deciding to rescind.  I did not follow my own best practices on this purchase and ultimately didn’t feel comfortable following through as a result.  DW very much wants to move forward with a TS deal, but understands we need to do so in an orderly fashion based upon solid due diligence over time.  As long as we are making forward progress over the next few months I think she will be happy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



your marriage sounds like mine.  My husband is more methodical and while I do take some time to think, I don't always see as much as i should at first.  It works out nicely because he keeps me reigned in, and i keep him from getting stuck.  Seriously, he goes to taco bell twice a week, and he STILL takes five minutes to examine the menu to decide what he wants.  I maybe go every couple of months, and I've made my choice within the first 30 seconds of being there.  lol


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 2, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Always keep in mind that Wyndham can change the rules at anytime. The above scenerio is if nothing changes. Obviously MF always go up but I expect the low MF resorts to always remain the lower ones unless something changes. That’s the crux of it. Something always changes. I’m not saying don’t do it. I’m saying being prepared for the fact that things may change and assumptions may be thrown out the window. Maybe Wyndham decides to do away with the VIP program or changes the levels but doesn’t Grandfather anyone in this time. Maybe they decide to discontinue the PIC program. Who knows. Do what works for you now and expect that something will change. That way, you are less upset when it happens because you were expecting it.



Understood and agreed.  There are no guarantees in life, and the contracts indicate the same.  That said, I would be surprised if Wyndham simply did away with VIP programs altogether.  I’m not sure of the subset of owners that are VIP status as a percentage of overall owners, but I would think this subset is among the most loyal and satisfied Wyndham owners.  

Wyndham would be foolish to endanger such a large, loyal and influential subset of their owner base.  Sure, anything is possible, but it’s unlikely the program itself would be disbanded at least in my view.  Changes?  Sure thing, probably all designed to get current owners to buy more developer points at the end of the day.  I would imagine a fair amount of Wyndham revenue is sourced from developer point purchases after all.  


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## Cyrus24 (Jul 2, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> As long as we are making forward progress over the next few months I think she will be happy.


Happy Wife, Happy Life.  Given all that you've learned so far, I'd go straight for Gold.  2 PIC's and ARP points, so many vacation possibilities!!!  This said, I went resale (after a test run with Discovery) before going for Gold.  Happy Analyzing!!!


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 2, 2018)

Richelle said:


> your marriage sounds like mine.  My husband is more methodical and while I do take some time to think, I don't always see as much as i should at first.  It works out nicely because he keeps me reigned in, and i keep him from getting stuck.  Seriously, he goes to taco bell twice a week, and he STILL takes five minutes to examine the menu to decide what he wants.  I maybe go every couple of months, and I've made my choice within the first 30 seconds of being there.  lol



Yes that pretty much sums it up.  I would add that I’m more introverted and am a future oriented thinker/planner sometimes prone to analysis paralysis (INTJ).  DW is a bit more extroverted and is a present oriented feeler/empathic/fun type person sometimes prone to impulse purchases (ESFJ).  Makes for a fun marriage sometimes! We do complement each other fairly well and strike a good balance overall at least when we are in alignment.  When we aren’t in alignment...well that’s when the fun really starts! 


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 2, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> Happy Wife, Happy Life.  Given all that you've learned so far, I'd go straight for Gold.  2 PIC's and ARP points, so many vacation possibilities!!!  This said, I went resale (after a test run with Discovery) before going for Gold.  Happy Analyzing!!!



Discovery option, this is the second time I’ve heard about this item.  Is this like a sampler package?  We bought a sampler package from BG earlier this year and are already booked for a five day excursion at The Fountains in Orlando in Jan 2019.  


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## Cyrus24 (Jul 2, 2018)

Discovery is a sampler Package, yes.  Great option, no long term commitment.  Discovery generally gives you some VIP benefits and a fair number of points.  If you buy developer points while 'discovering', they credit you the cost of the Package.  If you don't buy developer, you've still been able to enjoy Wyndham properties, offsetting some of that Discovery Package cost.  No one has mentioned it, but, perhaps the Telesales people would sell you a Discovery Package.  Something else to think about.


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## Richelle (Jul 2, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> Discovery is a sampler Package, yes.  Great option, no long term commitment.  Discovery generally gives you some VIP benefits and a fair number of points.  If you buy developer points while 'discovering', they credit you the cost of the Package.  If you don't buy developer, you've still been able to enjoy Wyndham properties, offsetting some of that Discovery Package cost.  No one has mentioned it, but, perhaps the Telesales people would sell you a Discovery Package.  Something else to think about.




Correction: Telesales does not sell it.  I agree Discovery is a great way to sample it and the money you spend on it, can go towards a retail purchase if you go that route. The no commitment part I think is the best part about it, because if someone finds out timesharing is not right for them, they can walk away without having to find a buyer and pay MF while waiting for the transfer to happen.  There are only two drawbacks to it, that I can think of. One, you are limited to the resorts you can go to. Not all resorts are participating resorts, however, you do have a lot of options.  Second, you don’t get to make your reservations online. You have to call. You can log into the website and see reservations you have made, but you cannot make them online. You also do not to experience the frustrations of not getting what you want, or the website crashing on you. Neither have happened often for me, because I plan far out and know a bit about computers. If it’s web maintenance, they usually tell you ahead of time. Usually.

I think I heard that you are required to sit through a meeting with a sales rep, but I’m not sure. 

The package cost around $4k.


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## Richelle (Jul 2, 2018)

Forgot to include the directory for Wyndham Doscovery resorts

https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_Discovery_Cover_Combined_Pgs.pdf


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## Cyrus24 (Jul 2, 2018)

Richelle said:


> I think I heard that you are required to sit through a meeting with a sales rep, but I’m not sure. I think if you used a telesales rep, you can do it over the phone, so a resort sales person isn’t patching their client.


I sat through a presentation back when I signed up for Discovery, that was a few years back.  Telesales seems to be the easy way to go.  No BS and it's all recorded.  More options for HitchHiker71 to consider.


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## wjappraise (Jul 2, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I’m not sure of the subset of owners that are VIP status as a percentage of overall owners, but I would think this subset is among the most loyal and satisfied Wyndham owners.
> 
> Wyndham would be foolish to endanger such a large, loyal and influential subset of their owner base.



I agree with your assertion that VIP programs will not likely be disbanded.  

However, from my perspective Wyndham does not treat its VIP owners with much more than open contempt.  Two years, well over 100 Platinum VIP owners had their accounts suspended due to ineptitude from the Wyndham IT department.  Several owners had bloated points balances and as a result, everyone with an amount over the contract balances was suspended.  Some had valid reasons for such bloated accounts, others did not.  Mine was bloated for a combination of reasons, and I had reported this to Wyndham no less than three times.  The suspension lasted some nine months, and never really was completely resolved, although some owners were paid to surrender their contracts.  The incredible lack of common courtesy or regular communication/updates was appalling.  

Then, in May of 2017, the new website and new rules of engagement were enacted.  The rules were designed to minimize the VIP features that had become de facto rights of ownership, as claimed by salesman in their pitches.  I do not begrudge Wyndham from adjusting its rules to better fit the intent of the VIP benefits vs. the actual benefits used (such as cancel, rebook, upgrade).  However, I do begrudge Wyndham for rolling out a clearly deficient website that is still rife with problems and glitches 14 months after its inauguration.  I also begrudge Wyndham for its clear intention to move Extra Holidays into the position to siphon off prime reservations even before the ten month time frame (see Clearwater beach listing on EH).  

While there was clearly a need to better manage the "wild west" that the old reservation system had become, certainly there could have been a better way than foist the piece of crap website on us without proper beta testing.  

From my vantage point, Wyndham does a fantastic job of analyzing the needs and desires of potential buyers, and seeking to fill those needs and desires, even if facts are bruised along the way.  Once the purchase is made, however, the concerns for the existing owner are relegated to a very low priority.   Wyndham would be better served to treat its existing owners as potential buyers. . . .

Just one man's opinion.


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## skotrla (Jul 2, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> There is always an opportunity cost for every transaction as you have indicated.  I went to school for finance and securities analysis so I’m used to running my own spreadsheet analytics when making financial decisions.  This is a big part of why I ended up deciding to rescind.  I did not follow my own best practices on this purchase and ultimately didn’t feel comfortable following through as a result.  DW very much wants to move forward with a TS deal, but understands we need to do so in an orderly fashion based upon solid due diligence over time.  As long as we are making forward progress over the next few months I think she will be happy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Here's a spreadsheet I put together last week on resale vs. PIC.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_4coq6UCfqPVyE1A3bOA9zRSgQEi-I1m

-Scott


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## Braindead (Jul 3, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Lets examine first option.  Both are not bad, but just wanted to throw in yet a few more points to consider.  If we compare apples to apples, we have to assume you are getting equal amount of points on either ebay or retail.  So two PICs plus minimum purchase is 606,000 points.  We are going to assume national harbor since the rate is low.  A 1.29 million point contract went for $10k.  So approximately $11 per 1,000 points give or take.  So a 606,000 point contract would run you about $6,666, and you do not get VIP.  Maintenance fees would be $2,860 a year of $238.36 a month based on the current $4.72 per 1k points.
> 
> Short term (upfront) costs: $6,666 (assuming you pay no closing or transfer costs)
> Long term costs: $2,860 per year in maintenance fees (not including future years increases)
> ...


You can enroll the picks with a CWA purchase also. I personally would do that because of the difference in Wyndham pricing. It also opens up ARP at a lot of resorts if you ever happen to need it in the future. I would still buy CWA on Wyndham purchases and add the low MFs with the PICs and resale purchases if you want more points after you reach the VIP level your trying to obtain


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## Richelle (Jul 3, 2018)

skotrla said:


> Here's a spreadsheet I put together last week on resale vs. PIC.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_4coq6UCfqPVyE1A3bOA9zRSgQEi-I1m
> 
> -Scott



Couple Questions:

1. What resort are you using for MF comparison?  Those don't look like the MF for CWA points which is 5.77 per 1k.
2.  Why does the resale side have 637k points and the other only 557k?  I'm sure there is a good reason, i just don't know what it is.
3. Why is there no guest fees on the retail side?  Non-VIP gets two per year.  Silver gets 5.  What assumptions are made here?  If you are accounting for the extra three GC fees Silver has, then that would be $295-$387 depending on where you get them.  If you are doing an average of the two (129+99)/2= 114.  The extra three would be $336.  I am not sure sure where you are getting you $396 number.

Also, new info came about after my original post.

1. Price increased for minimum package to $12,900.  That's before negotiations, so you'll likely get it for less, but it should be noted so no one gets sticker shock.  That's CWA pricing.  There may be a contract with higher MF or at a less popular resort that is cheaper.  For a small package, the higher MF will not matter, but i wouldn't go with a resort that is not popular.  If Ovations will not take it back, you will have to find a buyer for that contract and you'll likely have to give it away and pay all fees.  CWA might be worth the extra money simply because you can give it back.  You would probably lose money trying to sell a package that small.

2. Turns out it is 49,000 per PIC week.  The telesales rep I have was misinformed.  So two PICs would require a 98k purchase.  Last I heard, a 105k CWA package was going for around $16k before negotiations.  This will undoubtedly change your numbers, but you still make out good in the long run.


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## Richelle (Jul 3, 2018)

Braindead said:


> You can enroll the picks with a CWA purchase also. I personally would do that because of the difference in Wyndham pricing. It also opens up ARP at a lot of resorts if you ever happen to need it in the future. I would still buy CWA on Wyndham purchases and add the low MFs with the PICs and resale purchases if you want more points after you reach the VIP level your trying to obtain




Rewrote for CWA.  10 yesr price difference goes from $4,000 to $1,800.

Based on 606,000 (two PICS and minimum retail purchase)

A 511,000 CWA contract went for $2,495 on ebay yesterday, so based on that, the retail rate is $4.88 per $1k resale.

Short term (upfront) costs: $2957.28 (assuming you pay no closing or transfer costs)
Long term costs: $3496.62 per year in maintenance fees based on $5.77 per 1k (not including future years increases)

10 year cost (not including MF increases): $37,923.48


Second option:


98,000 point CWA contract that retails at $145 per 1k points. That would cost you $14,210 retail. Maintenance fees $565.46 per year or 47.12 per month based on a rate of $5.77 per 1,000 points. 

Then lets say you do, what i did, but twice. Buy (2) three bedrooms for $28 each. Total $56. Maintenance fees for both, plus the Wyndham program fee $1,992 a year or $166 a month for 508,000 points. If you want to compare apples to apples on maintenance fees, the maintenance fee rate for those 508,000 pic points is $3.92 per 1k points.

Short term (upfront costs): $14,210
Long term costs: $2,557.46 (not including maintenance increases)

10 year cost: $39,784

Not a huge price difference in the long term. We are not accounting for the VIP benefits of Silver. Some say Silver is worthless, others say VIP in general is worthless. Only you can put a dollar amount on the VIP benefits. Will you actually use them, and will it be worth the extra $1,800? At the 20 year mark, the cost of resale becomes more then retail so:

Resale 20 year cost: $72,889.68
Retail 20 year cost: $65,359.20

If you have your time share for 20 years, the $1,800 difference goes away and you actually save money by going retail IF you do PIC. If you go straight points, resale is always cheaper.

As Brainddead said, if you are elderly, never buy from Wyndham. It will be harder for you to get 20 years, then someone who is in their 30's and 40's


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## Richelle (Jul 3, 2018)

wjappraise said:


> I agree with your assertion that VIP programs will not likely be disbanded.
> 
> However, from my perspective Wyndham does not treat its VIP owners with much more than open contempt.  Two years, well over 100 Platinum VIP owners had their accounts suspended due to ineptitude from the Wyndham IT department.  Several owners had bloated points balances and as a result, everyone with an amount over the contract balances was suspended.  Some had valid reasons for such bloated accounts, others did not.  Mine was bloated for a combination of reasons, and I had reported this to Wyndham no less than three times.  The suspension lasted some nine months, and never really was completely resolved, although some owners were paid to surrender their contracts.  The incredible lack of common courtesy or regular communication/updates was appalling.
> 
> ...




That account freeze was totally ludicrous.  I do not know of any company that would have handled that issue so poorly.  I understand mega renters were causing all kinds of problems, and undoubtedly are the reason behind some of the changes, but there were plenty of non-mega renters who go caught up in that net.  It was like they did a mass freeze at the same time.  Ideally, you handle a subset of accounts at a time.  Not all at once.  I get it could have been affecting their bottom line, but so does screwing over (as you said) some of their most loyal and satisfied.  I couldn't believe how long that lasted.  Part of me thinks it had a lot of to with lack of training and personnel to handle the audits.  Then they had the constant discussions among leadership on how to handle a particular scenario as it came up.  I think it was poorly planned and implemented.

I am hoping some heads rolled over that website.  At my company, the definitely would have.  There are a lot of checks and balances at my company that keep things like that from happening.  If they are not already looking into it, they should look into DevOps as well as replacing whoever gave the finally OK for the site to roll out, or at least who told that person it was OK to roll out.

How do we know that they are siphoning off prime reservations of timeshare inventory that is owned by owners and not inventory owned by Wyndham themselves?  Just curious as to if you have any insight on that.


I think if they keep taking away benefits and advantages of VIP, it's going to be a lot harder to sell.  Sure, the sales guys can lie about it, but they can only go so far.  The publications they hand out list the benefits.  If the sales guys say they get free upgrades, but it's not listed in the hand out, that will be spotted a lot easier then some fine print.  If there is no VIP program, they are going to have to replace it with something, otherwise the big purchasers are going to go with a timeshare system that has a VIP program or better benefits.  Lets hope they come up with something to make the VIP people happy.  Maybe allow two discounted reservations at the 10 month window, in addition to the unlimited discounts in the express window.  If I could get an automatic 50% off a reservation at 10 months, i may seriously consider going Platinum.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 4, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Rewrote for CWA.  10 yesr price difference goes from $4,000 to $1,800.
> 
> Based on 606,000 (two PICS and minimum retail purchase)
> 
> ...



Can you re-run with 700k points total instead of 606k?  Assume a 192k point purchase and 508k PIC property points for VIP Gold.  I will be creating a spreadsheet myself over this coming weekend as well.  Tuggers are awesome!


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## bendadin (Jul 4, 2018)

Did you reach out to that seller on here who has one of your PICs that you need? She told me that she still has it


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## Cyrus24 (Jul 4, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Can you re-run with 700k points total instead of 606k?  Assume a 192k point purchase and 508k PIC property points for VIP Gold.  I will be creating a spreadsheet myself over this coming weekend as well.  Tuggers are awesome!
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





skotrla said:


> Here's a spreadsheet I put together last week on resale vs. PIC.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_4coq6UCfqPVyE1A3bOA9zRSgQEi-I1m
> 
> -Scott



You can download the Spreadsheet to Google Sheets and edit it for the numbers you want to use.  It is set to AutoCalculate.  Downloading will save a lot of time.


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## Richelle (Jul 4, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> You can download the Spreadsheet to Google Sheets and edit it for the numbers you want to use.  It is set to AutoCalculate.  Downloading will save a lot of time.



Did you see my questions for your spreadsheet?


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## Cyrus24 (Jul 4, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Did you see my questions for your spreadsheet?


Not my spreadsheet.  I just downloaded it and made some adjustments on my own.  The questions you had asked were valid and those were the types of adjustments needed to be made.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 4, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> You can download the Spreadsheet to Google Sheets and edit it for the numbers you want to use.  It is set to AutoCalculate.  Downloading will save a lot of time.



Yep that’s on the agenda for this weekend. 


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## Richelle (Jul 4, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Can you re-run with 700k points total instead of 606k?  Assume a 192k point purchase and 508k PIC property points for VIP Gold.  I will be creating a spreadsheet myself over this coming weekend as well.  Tuggers are awesome!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I wasn't sure about the spreadsheet, so i went ahead and rewrote what i had.  In this case, Resale wins...I just thought of something else.  Resales prices for CWA and some other contracts will likely start to creep up, because Ovations is taking CWA back, and people are using it as a quick out.  Why pay six months of maintenance fees while waiting for the transfer, when you can give it back and be done with it in less then two months?  In some cases you get three years worth of points as well.  This will likely lower the amount of CWA contracts available in the resale market.  The demand for CWA will out weigh supply, and prices will increase.  How much, no one knows.  The same can be said for retail prices going up.  If people are having a hard time getting them on the secondary market, Wyndham can start increasing their prices as well.  So these prices could change and completely change the outcome, or it could remain the same.

Rewrote for 700,000 CWA. 10 year price difference is $15,032 in Resale's favor

Based on 700,000 (two PICS and 192,000 points)

A 511,000 CWA contract went for $2,495 on ebay yesterday, so based on that, the retail rate is $4.88 per $1k resale.

Short term (upfront) costs: $3,416 (assuming you pay no closing or transfer costs)
Long term costs: $4039 per year in maintenance fees based on $5.77 per 1k (not including future years increases)

10 year cost (not including MF increases): $43,806


Second option:


192,000 point CWA contract that retails at $145 per 1k points. That would cost you $27,840 retail. Maintenance fees $1,107.84 per year or 92.32 per month based on a rate of $5.77 per 1,000 points. 

Then lets say you do, what i did, but twice. Buy (2) three bedrooms for $28 each. Total $56. Maintenance fees for both, plus the Wyndham program fee $1,992 a year or $166 a month for 508,000 points. If you want to compare apples to apples on maintenance fees, the maintenance fee rate for those 508,000 pic points is $3.92 per 1k points.

Short term (upfront costs): $27,840
Long term costs: $3,099.84 (not including maintenance increases)

10 year cost: $58,838

Not a huge price difference in the long term. We are not accounting for the VIP benefits of Silver. Some say Silver is worthless, others say VIP in general is worthless. Only you can put a dollar amount on the VIP benefits. Will you actually use them, and will it be worth the extra $1,800? At the 20 year mark, the cost of resale becomes more then retail so:

Resale 20 year cost: $84,196
Retail 20 year cost: $89,836

If you have your time share for 20 years, the $5,640 difference in resale's favor IF you do PIC. In this scenario resale is cheaper, but again does not account for the added benefits of 35% discount, upgrades (before silver), unlimited reservation transactions, unlimited housekeeping credits (all VIP), extra guest confirmations, as well as the benefits that only hold perceived value:

ability to reserve specific rooms
extended time to deposit points to future years
RARP advantage
Maragritaville
Complimentry Perks by Wyndham
Ability to ARP more times a year
RCI Instant Search and Book Feature
Worldwide External Exchange Deposit Unit Size Upgrades
Early checkin
mid-week clean and tidy
dedicated phone line
dedicated check-in line
Annual cruise


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 4, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Correction: Telesales does not sell it.  I agree Discovery is a great way to sample it and the money you spend on it, can go towards a retail purchase if you go that route. The no commitment part I think is the best part about it, because if someone finds out timesharing is not right for them, they can walk away without having to find a buyer and pay MF while waiting for the transfer to happen.  There are only two drawbacks to it, that I can think of. One, you are limited to the resorts you can go to. Not all resorts are participating resorts, however, you do have a lot of options.  Second, you don’t get to make your reservations online. You have to call. You can log into the website and see reservations you have made, but you cannot make them online. You also do not to experience the frustrations of not getting what you want, or the website crashing on you. Neither have happened often for me, because I plan far out and know a bit about computers. If it’s web maintenance, they usually tell you ahead of time. Usually.
> 
> I think I heard that you are required to sit through a meeting with a sales rep, but I’m not sure.
> 
> The package cost around $4k.



We are required to sit through an owner update sales pitch when we use the BG sampler package that we bought.  I would imagine pretty much every timeshare company would require this for a sampler package in order to try and get you to make an actual developer points purchase.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 4, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> I sat through a presentation back when I signed up for Discovery, that was a few years back.  Telesales seems to be the easy way to go.  No BS and it's all recorded.  More options for HitchHiker71 to consider.



Yes Telesales will most likely be what I choose to do.  DW and I spent a few hours this morning walking through everything I have learned over the past week as we work towards decisions on how to push forward.  
DW is currently leaning toward going for VIP Gold after reviewing the directory content together in detail and talking through the various pros and cons as well as he breakeven points embedded in this thread.

I still have to develop the spreadsheet analytics to prove out our assumptions, but the short and long term pricing examples provided in this thread helped a LOT so thanks to everyone here who chipped in with your advice to date!  It has all been extremely helpful!  Happy Independence Day  all! 


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 4, 2018)

bendadin said:


> Did you reach out to that seller on here who has one of your PICs that you need? She told me that she still has it



Ugh, I’m on so many threads now I have lost track of this specific item.  Which one are you referring to?  


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 4, 2018)

Richelle said:


> I wasn't sure about the spreadsheet, so i went ahead and rewrote what i had.  In this case, Resale wins...I just thought of something else.  Resales prices for CWA and some other contracts will likely start to creep up, because Ovations is taking CWA back, and people are using it as a quick out.  Why pay six months of maintenance fees while waiting for the transfer, when you can give it back and be done with it in less then two months?  In some cases you get three years worth of points as well.  This will likely lower the amount of CWA contracts available in the resale market.  The demand for CWA will out weigh supply, and prices will increase.  How much, no one knows.  The same can be said for retail prices going up.  If people are having a hard time getting them on the secondary market, Wyndham can start increasing their prices as well.  So these prices could change and completely change the outcome, or it could remain the same.
> 
> Rewrote for 700,000 CWA. 10 year price difference is $15,032 in Resale's favor
> 
> ...



Thanks so much Richelle!  You rock!  

I agree it’s all about the perceived value of the VIP benefits.  How often have you all actually been able to use the 60 day points savings features for example?  As a percentage of overall bookings?  10%? 25%?    How often have you all experienced the automatic unit upgrades on reservations as a percentage of bookings?

Just trying to make a determination on how to grade these VIP benefits.  We have three young adult children and fully anticipate using the guest confirmations on a fairly regular basis for them.  

We have already booked our BG sampler package trip to The Fountains in Orlando and I just booked our free three nights from Wyndham Rewards that we got for attending the sales pitch.  We are getting more excited about getting our Wyndham account up and running soon! 

Lastly, can someone please explain to me the value proposition for RARP?  I fully get ARP 13 months out, but am not understanding RARP yet.

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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 4, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Couple Questions:
> 
> 1. What resort are you using for MF comparison?  Those don't look like the MF for CWA points which is 5.77 per 1k.
> 2.  Why does the resale side have 637k points and the other only 557k?  I'm sure there is a good reason, i just don't know what it is.
> 3. Why is there no guest fees on the retail side?  Non-VIP gets two per year.  Silver gets 5.  What assumptions are made here?  If you are accounting for the extra three GC fees Silver has, then that would be $295-$387 depending on where you get them.  If you are doing an average of the two (129+99)/2= 114.  The extra three would be $336.  I am not sure sure where you are getting you $396 number.



Specific to number 2 above, I’m assuming he was looking at a 637k resale contract - or whomever the original spreadsheet author was at least.  557k I think is 508k for the two PICs plus 49k minimum developer points purchase is my best guess.

We now know it’s 49k per PIC week though, or at least that’s the current assumption, so it should be 606k total.




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## paxsarah (Jul 4, 2018)

Another intangible that’s tougher to quantify is that in a 20 year scenario, it only works if your financial situation or vacation preferences don’t change unexpectedly. Obviously we’re all comfortable enough that we’re here discussing discretionary vacation spending, but unexpected events can happen at any time. Alternatively, maybe I decide that instead of timesharing my jam is now RVing, or camping, or cruising, or following Phish, or whatever. With low sunk costs, I’m not losing much if I decide to divest partially or fully from my timeshare ownership at any time. If I’ve sunk more up front expecting to break even over 10-15-20 years, a change in plans can be even more costly.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 4, 2018)

paxsarah said:


> Another intangible that’s tougher to quantify is that in a 20 year scenario, it only works if your financial situation or vacation preferences don’t change unexpectedly. Obviously we’re all comfortable enough that we’re here discussing discretionary vacation spending, but unexpected events can happen at any time. Alternatively, maybe I decide that instead of timesharing my jam is now RVing, or camping, or cruising, or following Phish, or whatever. With low sunk costs, I’m not losing much if I decide to divest partially or fully from my timeshare ownership at any time. If I’ve sunk more up front expecting to break even over 10-15-20 years, a change in plans can be even more costly.



Agreed.  We are tend to suffer from a normalcy bias when looking into the future to various extents, assuming that tomorrow more or less will be somewhat similar to today.  History teaches us that these are not valid assumptions especially over the average lifespan of a human being (the saeculum).  Man plans, God laughs type thing. 


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## learnalot (Jul 4, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Thanks so much Richelle!  You rock!
> 
> I agree it’s all about the perceived value of the VIP benefits.  How often have you all actually been able to use the 60 day points savings features for example?  As a percentage of overall bookings?  10%? 25%?    How often have you all experienced the automatic unit upgrades on reservations as a percentage of bookings?
> 
> ...


RARP is a benefit at certain VIP levels.  I think Gold gets 2 per year and Platinum gets 3.  It allows you to book a reservation at 11 months out - somewhere other than your home resort.  Home resort owners still have a priority window becasue they can book at 13 months.  Booking windows are wide open at 10 months (except Presidential Reserve Inventory and Club Margaritaville, which retains access to 75% of the inventory for longer windows as outlined in club rules).  I think there are some blackouts on this benefit - Thanksgiving week, Christmas-New Years, 4th of July, and Myrtle Beach summer, as I recall. We have used this benefit a couple of times, but there aren't too many reservations that can't be gotten at first bell at the 10 month mark, although 4 BR Presidential units might be an exception to that, especially for prime season.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 4, 2018)

learnalot said:


> RARP is a benefit at certain VIP levels.  I think Gold gets one per year and Platinum gets 2.  It allows you to book a reservation at 11 months out - somewhere other than your home resort.  Home resort owners still have a priority window becasue they can book at 13 months.  Booking windows are wide open at 10 months (except Presidential Reserve Inventory and Club Margaritaville, which retains access to 75% of the inventory for longer windows as outlined in club rules).  You have to go through the call center to book an RARP reservation. I think there are some blackouts on this benefit - Thanksgiving week, Christmas-New Years, 4th of July, and Myrtle Beach summer, as I recall. We have used this benefit a couple of times, but there aren't too many reservations that can't be gotten at first bell at the 10 month mark, although 4 BR Presidential units might be an exception to that, especially for prime season.



Ok, but let’s assume CWA - doesn’t that mean ARP applies to 65+ resorts and that the HOA applies to all of the resorts?  In other words with CWA there is no one “home” resort?  What does the reciprocal ARP mean in this context?  


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## learnalot (Jul 4, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Ok, but let’s assume CWA - doesn’t that mean ARP applies to 65+ resorts and that the HOA applies to all of the resorts?  In other words with CWA there is no one “home” resort?  What does the reciprocal ARP mean in this context?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I do not have experience with that.  The RARP benefit predates CWA. RARP may be close to a redundant notion in CWA, but CWA "home resort" access is for resorts that have inventory in CWA.  There may be a few that do not have any inventory in CWA.  If so, those might be available for an RARP res at 11 months. The oldest resorts were sold as fixed weeks, then came the switch to points based sales deeded to a home resort but with access to the others through the club - Club Wyndham Plus. Several years later, they started selling Club Wyndham Access, points based, no home resort.  If resorts sold out as fixed weeks and/or as CWP, there was no CWA Access available at that resort until or unless Wyndham was able to reacquire some inventory through owner default, ovation, or a tradeup purchase.


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## north (Jul 4, 2018)

VIP Gold gets 2 RARPs per year.  Platinum gets 3.  You can use the website to book RARP.

From the directory:
"The following holidays/special events are blacked out for this benefit: Easter/Spring Break, Fourth of July, Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year’s Eve and June 
through August at Myrtle Beach locations."


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## skotrla (Jul 5, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Couple Questions:
> 
> 1. What resort are you using for MF comparison?  Those don't look like the MF for CWA points which is 5.77 per 1k.
> 2.  Why does the resale side have 637k points and the other only 557k?  I'm sure there is a good reason, i just don't know what it is.
> 3. Why is there no guest fees on the retail side?  Non-VIP gets two per year.  Silver gets 5.  What assumptions are made here?  If you are accounting for the extra three GC fees Silver has, then that would be $295-$387 depending on where you get them.  If you are doing an average of the two (129+99)/2= 114.  The extra three would be $336.  I am not sure sure where you are getting you $396 number.





Cyrus24 said:


> You can download the Spreadsheet to Google Sheets and edit it for the numbers you want to use.  It is set to AutoCalculate.  Downloading will save a lot of time.



1. As Cyrus said, the spreadsheet is a tool for comparisons, so you could plug in different numbers.  This was put together with some initial assumptions from ronparise from another thread.

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...se-to-enroll-a-pic.275341/page-2#post-2153020

Here were some of the variations I ran:

Default: Y6, $41K
Investment Return = 10%: Y6, $40K
Annual Points Needed = 1000K: Y5, $51K
60-day Bookings = 25%: Y7, $33K
Annual Maintenance Increase = 3%: Y6, $33K
Annual Guest Fees Used = 1: Y7, $33K
Resale Initial Cost $8/1K, Resale Annual Cost $5/1K: Y6, $24K
Resale Initial Cost $12/1K, Resale Annual Cost $4/1K: Y9, $6K

2. That's based on the % of reservations you get at 25% off by booking with 60 days from cell B3.  The resale purchase requires more points to make up for the PIC purchase Silver discounts.

3. It's based on the number of guest reservations in cell B5 - I put it together before the new program guide came out that increased free guest reservations for Non-VIP from 1-2. $99 x 4 = $396.  I had changed my local copy but not the one I uploaded.

Here's a link to my latest updates in a converted Google Sheets version so I can edit directly in the future.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1q6xmlv7KUw_1gyWP20rjd48We7ZdzaTIr8isz7xF-kI

Thanks,

Scott


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## skotrla (Jul 5, 2018)

I bumped up retail purchase to $15K for 98K points with maintenance+program fee of $6.35 - if anyone has a better number to use, let me know.

I added a table to the spreadsheet comparing different scenarios - if you have a specific set of assumptions below you'd like to see in the table, let me know.

-Scott


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## Braindead (Jul 5, 2018)

I’m going to use the CPA analogy here. You can twist these spreadsheets and break evens to which ever side you want.
We are talking vacations using disposable income.
There are way to many variables to assume anything with these spreadsheets that don’t even have a dollar value attached to them.
What value do you put on being able to pick a room number:
I’m not going to look at the garbage dumpster or parking ramp.
What’s it worth to be able to sit on your balcony with a view?
That’s just one example as some will say there’s no guarantee on room numbers but I’ve had good luck reserving room numbers.
One owner may get discounts and or upgrades on most of thier reservations while the next owners gets very little.
Do what you think is best for you and your family and that you are comfortable doing financially. There are NO wrong or right answers on ownership every owner will have their own priorities and preferences.
If you want to look at the return on money invested in vacations stay home and invest the money if thats the deciding factor.
Using these spreadsheets no one would ever own DVC. Try going on the DVC thread with spreadsheet on how they should own Wyndham instead of DVC and see what kind of response you get


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## Braindead (Jul 5, 2018)

Why do some owners:
Stay in Presidential or PR suites instead of deluxe units
As a couple stay in a 1bdr instead of a studio 
As a couple stayed in a 4bdr PR suite at Bonnet Creek as reported here in this forum[not me]
As a family stay in 3bdr instead of 2bdr and use the sofa pullout 
Stay Oceanfront view instead a street view 
Answer : because they wanted to. It was their personal choice.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 5, 2018)

Certified mail Rescission letter was delivered successfully to the destination address at 12:56 PM today, waiting on the return receipt portion now, along with a written response per the letter terms for rescission and a full refund.  If there are any other recommended methods to validate Wyndham’s response, please let me know.  


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 5, 2018)

For those who are platinum owners and/or have over 1MM points, do you use ALL of your points year to year for vacationing?  Or do you somehow use a subset of points for rentals to recover some dollars toward MFs?  

Beyond the 700k VIP Gold plan attainment we are currently targeting, i am wondering if it would be worth picking up a few resale contracts solely for the purpose of allocating those points for rental purposes to help cover MFs.  


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## Silverdollar (Jul 5, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> For those who are platinum owners and/or have over 1MM points, do you use ALL of your points year to year for vacationing?  Or do you somehow use a subset of points for rentals to recover some dollars toward MFs?
> 
> Beyond the 700k VIP Gold plan attainment we are currently targeting, i am wondering if it would be worth picking up a few resale contracts solely for the purpose of allocating those points for rental purposes to help cover MFs.
> 
> ...


As VIP Platinum, I used my points for rentals to pay more than 100% of my MF's in the first 3 months of this year, and still had plenty of points left for vacations. More than half of my points were used at 50% discount and included upgrades. I had unlimited housekeeping credits, unlimited transactions, and plenty of free guest certificates.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 5, 2018)

Silverdollar said:


> As VIP Platinum, I used my points for rentals to pay more than 100% of my MF's in the first 3 months of this year, and still had plenty of points left for vacations. More than half of my points were used at 50% discount and included upgrades. I had unlimited housekeeping credits, unlimited transactions, and plenty of free guest certificates.



Got it thanks!  So when you say you used more than half your points at a 50% discount I’m assuming you mean within the 60 day booking window that comes with VIP?  And these were all for your own vacations as opposed to points used for rentals?  How do VIP Platinum folks typically transact rentals?  Do you advertise somewhere?  Do you advertise the points to others or actual weeks of booked vacations that you book beforehand? Just trying to better understand the specific process used to use points for rentals to cover MFs here.


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## skotrla (Jul 6, 2018)

Braindead said:


> I’m going to use the CPA analogy here. You can twist these spreadsheets and break evens to which ever side you want.
> We are talking vacations using disposable income.
> There are way to many variables to assume anything with these spreadsheets that don’t even have a dollar value attached to them.
> What value do you put on being able to pick a room number:
> ...



Just because a spreadsheet spits out a number doesn't mean it spits out an answer - I agree with you that the decision is personal and that there are intangible things you can't easily put a price on.

However, this kind of analysis can at least get you pointed in the right direction.  If the results say that it will cost you $x more over some time period but you'll get benefit y, then you can decide if benefit y over the time period has value to you.  If the result said it was going to cost you $50K over some number of years to make room requests that may not be honored, and that's a good value to you, then at least you are paying the $50K with your eyes wide open.  Just because something is comfortable financially doesn't mean it's the right thing to do - there's always an opportunity cost.

This spreadsheet is comparing two vacation options of spending x Wyndham points per year.  The point is not the amount you will spend doing Option 1 or Option 2 - the point is the difference between the two options.

Not sure what this has to do with DVC.

-Scott


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## skotrla (Jul 6, 2018)

Silverdollar said:


> As VIP Platinum, I used my points for rentals to pay more than 100% of my MF's in the first 3 months of this year, and still had plenty of points left for vacations. More than half of my points were used at 50% discount and included upgrades. I had unlimited housekeeping credits, unlimited transactions, and plenty of free guest certificates.



What's your maintenance cost $/1K?  It sounds like you the Wyndham program is working well for you.  I'm an HICV Elite owner and the HICV program is working well for me - I'd like to expand into another program and am trying to figure out if Wyndham is the right one.

-Scott


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## bendadin (Jul 6, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Got it thanks!  So when you say you used more than half your points at a 50% discount I’m assuming you mean within the 60 day booking window that comes with VIP?  And these were all for your own vacations as opposed to points used for rentals?  How do VIP Platinum folks typically transact rentals?  Do you advertise somewhere?  Do you advertise the points to others or actual weeks of booked vacations that you book beforehand? Just trying to better understand the specific process used to use points for rentals to cover MFs here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



So I was a nothing with resale only (well according to My Club Wyndham account, I still am.) So as a nothing with no discounts or upgrades, I used 350,500 points on reservations. So I was left paying $800 for my 500k points that I have remaining. It really wasn't why I bought, though.


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## Braindead (Jul 6, 2018)

skotrla said:


> Just because a spreadsheet spits out a number doesn't mean it spits out an answer - I agree with you that the decision is personal and that there are intangible things you can't easily put a price on.
> 
> However, this kind of analysis can at least get you pointed in the right direction.  If the results say that it will cost you $x more over some time period but you'll get benefit y, then you can decide if benefit y over the time period has value to you.  If the result said it was going to cost you $50K over some number of years to make room requests that may not be honored, and that's a good value to you, then at least you are paying the $50K with your eyes wide open.  Just because something is comfortable financially doesn't mean it's the right thing to do - there's always an opportunity cost.
> 
> ...


Your last comment on DVC. I thought the same thing the first time you started this spreadsheet analysis stuff trying to compare HIVC to Wyndham.

I think it’s pretty simple and boils down to just a few things to decide such as:
Resale,developer or developer with PICs. Under 400k points is automatic resale.

When your buying from Wyndham a low MF resort cost $190 per 1k points- CWA cost $145 per 1k points. $2 difference in MF. I don’t need a spreadsheet to tell me that takes 22 1/2 years at 0 interest.
 I chose CWA - Richelle chose low MF. Who’s right and who’s wrong? I say both are right we both did what we felt was best for us personally.

For 700k resale points with low MFs at $10 per 1k points is $7,000 - 700k points using PICs is $30,000 and end up with about the same MF as the resale points. That’s $23,000 more than resale to become VIP Gold. Your spreadsheet can never show if one comes out ahead or behind because there’s absolutely no way to predict what the owner is going to receive in benefits over 10 or 20 years. Economy turns south benefits will be easier to get we know that from post 2008. The only decision is a personal one if you feel like you want to be VIP Gold for $23,000 more and I don’t think a spreadsheet can answer that.

All points purchased from Wyndham will never come out ahead on a spreadsheet and I don’t need a spreadsheet to show me that. The only decision then becomes low MF or CWA. Again I’ll take CWA with it’s ARP and lower up front cost. Some go this way even though any spreadsheet will show it doesn’t make $ sense and yet they’re glad they did and are happy campers. I’m glad they’re happy! Maybe they wanted to be Gold or Platinum and didn’t want to mess with buying PICs and worry about they’re PICs staying.

My point is the following example using 2 families with the same income level going to Disney on vacation:
Family A budgets $10,000
Family B the money wise or penny pinchers budgets $5,500
Family B spouse ask their investment person what if we invested $5,000 with you over 20 years. Answer- I can turn that $5k into $20,000
I will guarantee you one spouse in family B will say we shouldn’t go to Disney. We’ll stay home and go to the local amusement park. We’ll spend $500 and invest the $5,000 that will be $20,000 in 20 years.

Family B spouses pass away with a good chunk of money the kids are going to inherit. We’ve all seen it those kids are going to Disney now.
Did the parents see the joy and glee in their kids faces at Disney. No

If you want to use a spreadsheet to make dollar sense spent on vacations. Your not going!! That’s my point


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## harveyhaddixfan (Jul 6, 2018)

Here’s another question, how is availability in CWA vs CWP? Or is it the same pool at 10 months?


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## Braindead (Jul 6, 2018)

skotrla said:


> Just because something is comfortable financially doesn't mean it's the right thing to do - there's always an opportunity cost.
> 
> -Scott


I couldn’t disagree more on the subject of vacations!!


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## Silverdollar (Jul 6, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Got it thanks!  So when you say you used more than half your points at a 50% discount I’m assuming you mean within the 60 day booking window that comes with VIP?  And these were all for your own vacations as opposed to points used for rentals?  How do VIP Platinum folks typically transact rentals?  Do you advertise somewhere?  Do you advertise the points to others or actual weeks of booked vacations that you book beforehand? Just trying to better understand the specific process used to use points for rentals to cover MFs here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, the discount and upgrades to larger units are within the 60-day booking window that comes with VIP. But, to clarify, VIP Platinum gets a 50% discount, VIP Gold gets 35% discount, and VIP Silver gets 25% discount in the 60-day window. And, VIP Platinum gets unit size upgrades within 60 days of check-in, VIP Gold gets upgrades within 45 days of check-in, and VIP Silver gets upgrades within 30 days of check-in.

Most all my points used for rentals were 50% discount and upgrades to larger units. Points used for vacations were a mix of discounts/upgrades and bookings well in advance in order to get what I wanted, where I wanted, and to book specific unit numbers, which is a benefit available to VIP Gold and Platinum.

I don't know how other VIP Platinum owners typically transact rentals. Personally, I list my rentals on a well known timeshare rental site. I advertise actual weeks that I book beforehand. When booking, I use a simple six step process that works for me. 

It is almost impossible for non-VIP owners to compete on rental prices with VIP Platinum owners. Let's consider a week at a particular Wyndham resort in prime season in a 2 BR unit for 224,000 points. A VIP Platinum owner can book a 1 BR unit at that same resort (in the 60-day window) that would normally be 166,000 points at a 50% discount or 83,000 points and then upgrade it to a 2 BR unit for no additional points.

If the VIP Platinum owner has CWA, those points are worth about $6 per 1000. So, 83,000 points x $6 = $498. That 2 BR unit can be rented for $900-$1,200 (sometimes more). That same 2 BR unit would cost a non-VIP owner with CWA 224,000 points x $6 = $1,344, or almost triple what it costs VIP Platinum.

Not only can the Platinum owner rent (or vacation at) the 2 BR unit for 83k points, it leaves them with 141k points (which is the difference between the 224k and 83k) they can use to rent or vacation elsewhere. 

Is inventory and upgrades always available? No. Can you always get your asking price. No. But, if you don't receive any offers, or the price you want, you can always cancel more than 15 days from check-in and get your points back. And since VIP Platinum has unlimited housekeeping credits, unlimited reservation transactions, and plenty of guest certificates, it doesn't cost anything to cancel. Further, with the Points deposit feature, VIP Platinum has until the last day of the year to decide whether to deposit leftover points into the next year, or the following year.

You might ask, what about availability within the 60-day window? And, is it worth anything? All I can say is I've been able to rent enough units this year to pay all my MFs (and more) within the first three months of the year, and still have plenty of points left over to vacation. The key is to know the resorts and seasons to look for. This is something you learn over time.


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## Braindead (Jul 6, 2018)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> Here’s another question, how is availability in CWA vs CWP? Or is it the same pool at 10 months?


Supposed to be the same pool at 10 months. But I did buy CWA from Wyndham because of the price difference.
If I didn’t buy CWA from Wyndham I would’ve bought some CWA resale just in case their is any truth that you will see different availability.
I can tell you when I’m on the website on the ownership page my type of ownership is CWA. I’ve been very happy when using ARP with my CWA points


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## harveyhaddixfan (Jul 6, 2018)

Braindead said:


> Supposed to be the same pool at 10 months. But I did buy CWA from Wyndham because of the price difference.
> If I didn’t buy CWA from Wyndham I would’ve bought some CWA resale just in case their is any truth that you will see different availability.
> I can tell you when I’m on the website on the ownership page my type of ownership is CWA. I’ve been very happy with using ARP with my CWA points



Can an account have CWA and CWP in it? Would only your CWA points work at 13 months? 

I just started the process of buying a 168k Odd Bali Hai contract and figured at some point in the future I may add to it with an even year contract.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 6, 2018)

Silverdollar said:


> As VIP Platinum, I used my points for rentals to pay more than 100% of my MF's in the first 3 months of this year, and still had plenty of points left for vacations. More than half of my points were used at 50% discount and included upgrades. I had unlimited housekeeping credits, unlimited transactions, and plenty of free guest certificates.



SD,

In addition to my questions above, would you be willing to provide the breakdown of points used for personal vacations vs rentals?  I’m trying to gauge how many points I will need to acquire solely for rental purposes to cover all MFs.  Also, I’m assuming when you state that “I used my points for rentals to pay more than 100% of my MF's in the first 3 months of this year” you mean you used a subset of your total points to cover ALL of your MFs for your entire contract for the entire year yes?  Not just the MFs for the rental points right? 

Feel free to PM me if you would rather not post anything publicly. 


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## Braindead (Jul 6, 2018)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> Can an account have CWA and CWP in it? Would only your CWA points work at 13 months?
> 
> I just started the process of buying a 168k Odd Bali Hai contract and figured at some point in the future I may add to it with an even year contract.


I have all types of ownership. ARP on all types shows up using the points calculator and work as they should.
If your Bali Hai is a converted week to points you will have no points ARP on the contract


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 6, 2018)

For VIP users booking within the 60 day window, do the points discounts apply to existing deal specials?  For instance right now in the deals section there’s up to 70% off points bookings at Williamsburg resorts up through July 31.  As a temporary VIP Silver member (until my rescission goes through), would I receive the additional 25% points discount on top of the 70%?


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## Richelle (Jul 6, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Thanks so much Richelle!  You rock!
> 
> I agree it’s all about the perceived value of the VIP benefits.  How often have you all actually been able to use the 60 day points savings features for example?  As a percentage of overall bookings?  10%? 25%?    How often have you all experienced the automatic unit upgrades on reservations as a percentage of bookings?
> 
> ...




I only just went gold from silver. I’ve only been Silver for a little over  year. Long story short, when I bought in 2008, they screwed up my PIC and didn’t credit me enough points. They fixed it and made me grandfathered VIP (VIP Silver was 300k at the time and I should have had 392k).  I have been able to use the discount once and my only vacations with the exception of the last one was during prime and it was too risky to cancel rebook if anything popped up because canceled inventory that popped up disappeared just as quickly.  This last one I was able to book a 3 bed Presidential at WBC at a 25% discount. No upgrade though. That one just popped up and I snagged it. I didn’t expect an upgrade. It’s easier to get upgraded from a one bedroom then a three bedroom presidential. Plus I was only Silver. Gold and platinum get upgraded earlier then silver. Silver get what’s left over. 

RARP allows you to book any clube Wyndhan resort at 11 months instead of 10 in the standard window. This is good if you need to snag a larger room. Owners and CWA (is participating resort) can book at 13 months, but Gokd and Platinum can book at 11 months (2 or 4 tines a year respectively), while everyone else has to wait until 10 months


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## Silverdollar (Jul 6, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> SD,
> 
> In addition to my questions above, would you be willing to provide the breakdown of points used for personal vacations vs rentals?  I’m trying to gauge how many points I will need to acquire solely for rental purposes to cover all MFs.  Also, I’m assuming when you state that “I used my points for rentals to pay more than 100% of my MF's in the first 3 months of this year” you mean you used a subset of your total points to cover ALL of your MFs for your entire contract for the entire year yes?  Not just the MFs for the rental points right?
> 
> ...


Yes, I used a subset of my total points to cover ALL of my MFs for my entire contract for the entire year. That includes all my MFs for CWA, as well as all my MFs for my 2 PIC weeks. NOT just the MFs for the rental points.

I'll need to do some figuring to provide you the breakdown of points used for personal vacations versus rentals. I'll have to get back to you. Just so you know, those percentages can swing widely from year to year because sometimes you can randomly land on really good deals. For example, I recently booked a 4-night vacation at Fairfield Plantation for next month. The 4 nights only cost me 15,500 points. I booked a studio at 50% discount and upgraded to a 2 BR with loft. The value of those 15,500 pts x $6 = $93.00 or $23.25 per night!

As has been said on other threads, there are so many different variables such as when and where you want to vacation, and how many BRs you need, etc. You could easily consume most, if not all, your (VIP) points on one or two vacations at some of the "high point" resorts like Wyndham Emerald Grand, where a 3 BR Plus Bay View will cost you 550,000 pts. On the other hand, you could book 10 week-long vacations at other resorts if you are flexible to travel on short notice and/or open to visit some of the "lesser point" resorts. It all comes down to your family's availability and personal preferences.


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## Jan M. (Jul 6, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> SD,
> 
> In addition to my questions above, would you be willing to provide the breakdown of points used for personal vacations vs rentals?  I’m trying to gauge how many points I will need to acquire solely for rental purposes to cover all MFs.  Also, I’m assuming when you state that “I used my points for rentals to pay more than 100% of my MF's in the first 3 months of this year” you mean you used a subset of your total points to cover ALL of your MFs for your entire contract for the entire year yes?  Not just the MFs for the rental points right?
> 
> ...



At this time with both the changes to the VIP benefits of 4/17 and the new website of 5/17 it is too risky a proposition and irresponsible to encourage someone, especially a new person, to purchase, resale or developer, a large number of points just to be able to do rentals.

The wisest advice many of us give is to buy what you need and where you need if you think you will need to use your ARP. I personally always seem to be recommending that the new people buy a larger number of points than what ever they are looking at. That they will likely want and need more points than they are considering buying and that they at least buy enough points, 231,000, to get past the minimum program fee.

Once they've learned to use the Wyndham booking system and stayed at a couple of resorts, if they find they have friends, acquaintances, co-workers that are willing to pay them for stays then they could consider buying more points. But nothing they couldn't handle the maintenance fees on if they couldn't rent.

Here is my personal story. When my husband got downsized/involuntarily retired from his job up North at the age of almost 61, he easily found another job and we moved to Florida which is what we wanted. It has has been wonderful; our cloud definitely had a silver lining! But instead of the 27 vacation days he had been getting he had to start over with two weeks vacation. We have over a million points and probably close to a million of those were points that we couldn't even begin to use. I had to learn to rent. At this same time our son, our only child, got married and two months later, oops they were expecting. Since then they have had a second child, changed jobs and moved twice so they have rarely been able to use the timeshares. So much for their plan to not start a family until they were turning 30 and well established in careers and finances. Our family is the perfect example of man plans and God laughs!

I put a lot of time and effort into learning to rent, finding reservations, marketing my rentals and dealing with renters. The one thing every person who thinks they might like to rent should know is that there is a learning curve with renting and you will make mistakes, sometimes big ones, as you learn even when you put a lot of time and effort into learning. Here we are now 7 years later, my husband finally retired in February so we can now use all our points for ourselves again and I'm happily retiring from renting. What if during the past 7 years, I or my husband had or in the upcoming years would have a health issue that would make it very difficult or even impossible for me to handle the renting or us to use our points again? I made up a list with contact information for several point managers, told my husband and son about the list and to immediately turn everything over to one of them if something happened to me. Not sure if any of those point managers survived or if any new ones have taken their place. Maybe someone else reading this knows and will post that information. I don't see my husband having the inclination or patience to do renting but our son would and would also need to if something happened to both of us that we were unable to use the timeshares. As long as health permitted my husband would definitely use our timeshares if I was no longer around and so would I if he was no longer around. Our son is only 31 and has a lot of years to go before he can use that many points. I have coached our son about how I do things and what he will need to know to manage the timeshares. We've owned for 17 years and hope to be using our timeshares for another 17 years if not more. But once you get over a certain age you become increasingly aware of how quickly things can change.

What I came to realize from the freeze of 8/16 is how much money an owner can bleed in maintenance fees. An owner wouldn't have to be frozen just have a an unexpected life event of their own or a family member that would make it very difficult to impossible to handle rentals. Plus more things could change with Wyndham making it even harder to make a profit with rentals. But those maintenance fees still have to be paid. Even while you are trying to find a way out.


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## Jan M. (Jul 6, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> For VIP users booking within the 60 day window, do the points discounts apply to existing deal specials?  For instance right now in the deals section there’s up to 70% off points bookings at Williamsburg resorts up through July 31.  As a temporary VIP Silver member (until my rescission goes through), would I receive the additional 25% points discount on top of the 70%?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



No, there are no further discounts.


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## wjappraise (Jul 6, 2018)

Given the changes to the VIP perks, it has become a "no brainer" (shout out to BrainDead), that VIP ownership is not worth the investment.  Years ago, there were many discussions on this website about the inherent value in developer purchased VIP benefits.  Even at that point, most savvy owners agreed that the cost paid for a VIP ownership, even using PIC, was not a sound investment, when the same amount of points could be purchased for a few hundred dollars via resale.  I believe Ron suggested that investing the money saved in even a modest returning money market account would yield interest payments that would cover the fee savings and discounts that VIP ownership allowed.  Since that time, the prospect of getting a desired reservation at a discount, or an upgrade, or a combination of the two, is quite remote.  Anyone who has tried it knows that it involves a much higher risk of loss than prior 5/20/2017.  I will only try it if I have a back up plan, and most of the time it fails.  

That said, a non-VIP account will require careful planning as reservation transactions, HK fees, and guest fees can add up quickly.  I think the worst type of ownership is what a friend of mine recently purchased from Wyndham.  He purchased a low-point contract (126,000 EOY) with no temporary VIP status.  So, he pays for every reservation transaction, has no real buying power, and can book a few days every other year.  The $10,000 price he paid is a complete waste.  I tried to tell him so, but he simply would not listen.  Now, after not being able to book anything (and his salesman does not return phone calls) he understands what I tried telling him.  So, he is now hoping to add some resale contracts so at least he can get some use out of his contract (he is paying a monthly loan payment on top of the MFs).  If he purchased this via resale, he would have exactly the same perks he now has (none) but would have likely paid $100, if that, for the contract.


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## Richelle (Jul 6, 2018)

learnalot said:


> I do not have experience with that.  The RARP benefit predates CWA. RARP may be close to a redundant notion in CWA, but CWA "home resort" access is for resorts that have inventory in CWA.  There may be a few that do not have any inventory in CWA.  If so, those might be available for an RARP res at 11 months. The oldest resorts were sold as fixed weeks, then came the switch to points based sales deeded to a home resort but with access to the others through the club - Club Wyndham Plus. Several years later, they started selling Club Wyndham Access, points based, no home resort.  If resorts sold out as fixed weeks and/or as CWP, there was no CWA Access available at that resort until or unless Wyndham was able to reacquire some inventory through owner default, ovation, or a tradeup purchase.


There are more then a few that do not participate in CWA, so CWA owners would be able to use RARP for those resorts.  They would also be able to use RARP on deeded inventory at CWA participating resorts.   No really redundant.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 6, 2018)

Silverdollar said:


> Yes, I used a subset of my total points to cover ALL of my MFs for my entire contract for the entire year. That includes all my MFs for CWA, as well as all my MFs for my 2 PIC weeks. NOT just the MFs for the rental points.
> 
> I'll need to do some figuring to provide you the breakdown of points used for personal vacations versus rentals. I'll have to get back to you. Just so you know, those percentages can swing widely from year to year because sometimes you can randomly land on really good deals. For example, I recently booked a 4-night vacation at Fairfield Plantation for next month. The 4 nights only cost me 15,500 points. I booked a studio at 50% discount and upgraded to a 2 BR with loft. The value of those 15,500 pts x $6 = $93.00 or $23.25 per night!
> 
> As has been said on other threads, there are so many different variables such as when and where you want to vacation, and how many BRs you need, etc. You could easily consume most, if not all, your (VIP) points on one or two vacations at some of the "high point" resorts like Wyndham Emerald Grand, where a 3 BR Plus Bay View will cost you 550,000 pts. On the other hand, you could book 10 week-long vacations at other resorts if you are flexible to travel on short notice and/or open to visit some of the "lesser point" resorts. It all comes down to your family's availability and personal preferences.



SD thanks for taking the time to reply.  This is REALLY good information for me to digest.  It is VERY interesting to me the variance of opinion on the worth of VIP level.  WJ just posted that it has really been whittled down to a nub in many respects at least compared to days past.  Yet you are giving me real life examples at the same time, this year, of how you used your VIP Platinum benefits to book within the 60 day window at a 50% points discount and then rent out those points and make enough to MORE than cover BOTH your developer points MFs AND your non-developer PIC weeks MFs.  If VIP buys this kind of added flexibility/advantage, and gives me the opportunity to cover my MFs in entirety most years if I really learn how to use the system to my advantage, then compared to resale points, I could generate enough savings to cover the expense over a 20 year period.  I will modify the spreadsheet in this thread to account for these use cases and see what the numbers show.  More to come soon on the analytics.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 6, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> At this time with both the changes to the VIP benefits of 4/17 and the new website of 5/17 it is too risky a proposition and irresponsible to encourage someone, especially a new person, to purchase, resale or developer, a large number of points just to be able to do rentals.
> 
> The wisest advice many of us give is to buy what you need and where you need if you think you will need to use your ARP. I personally always seem to be recommending that the new people buy a larger number of points than what ever they are looking at. That they will likely want and need more points than they are considering buying and that they at least buy enough points, 231,000, to get past the minimum program fee.
> 
> ...



Thanks Jan M.  I agree with your overall assessment.  Perhaps I should provide some additional context.  I already own a few rental properties as part of a LLC business that DW and I run on the side.  I work f/t in technology, but am very familiar with real estate rental management in general, been doing it for ten years now.  I'm certain TS rentals are different, but I'm also fairly certain there are shared lessons learned between the two areas.  That said, we will probably pursue VIP Gold initially and stop there, get familiar with the system, grab a resale contract or two if we decide to start renting - those points will still have VIP Gold benefits applied to them right?  Then if we find a working model and feel that VIP platinum would somehow be more advantageous, we would then consider another developer points transaction.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 6, 2018)

wjappraise said:


> Given the changes to the VIP perks, it has become a "no brainer" (shout out to BrainDead), that VIP ownership is not worth the investment.  Years ago, there were many discussions on this website about the inherent value in developer purchased VIP benefits.  Even at that point, most savvy owners agreed that the cost paid for a VIP ownership, even using PIC, was not a sound investment, when the same amount of points could be purchased for a few hundred dollars via resale.  I believe Ron suggested that investing the money saved in even a modest returning money market account would yield interest payments that would cover the fee savings and discounts that VIP ownership allowed.  Since that time, the prospect of getting a desired reservation at a discount, or an upgrade, or a combination of the two, is quite remote.  Anyone who has tried it knows that it involves a much higher risk of loss than prior 5/20/2017.  I will only try it if I have a back up plan, and most of the time it fails.
> 
> That said, a non-VIP account will require careful planning as reservation transactions, HK fees, and guest fees can add up quickly.  I think the worst type of ownership is what a friend of mine recently purchased from Wyndham.  He purchased a low-point contract (126,000 EOY) with no temporary VIP status.  So, he pays for every reservation transaction, has no real buying power, and can book a few days every other year.  The $10,000 price he paid is a complete waste.  I tried to tell him so, but he simply would not listen.  Now, after not being able to book anything (and his salesman does not return phone calls) he understands what I tried telling him.  So, he is now hoping to add some resale contracts so at least he can get some use out of his contract (he is paying a monthly loan payment on top of the MFs).  If he purchased this via resale, he would have exactly the same perks he now has (none) but would have likely paid $100, if that, for the contract.



WJ thanks for chiming in.  I agree VIP is really hit or miss depending on who you ask, particularly "miss" in comparison to resale points.  I am in the process of rescinding a 126k annual points contract that DW really wanted us to go with last week, for the exact reasons you are outlining here - not enough points to meet our needs realistically after doing additional due diligence.  On the other hand I have folks like SD who are saying they DO get often get discounts, upgrades or a combination of the two, often enough to effectively use their points for rentals and cover MFs.  So it seems some have more success in this area than others.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 6, 2018)

Richelle said:


> There are more then a few that do not participate in CWA, so CWA owners would be able to use RARP for those resorts.  They would also be able to use RARP on deeded inventory at CWA participating resorts.   No really redundant.



Richelle, thanks for this info.  So, I think what RARP is for, if I'm understanding you here, is to give me, a CWA owner, the ability to perform 11 month advance reservations, _outside_ of the CWA 65+ resorts that are considered "home" resorts.  Now I understand RARP!


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## skotrla (Jul 6, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> SD thanks for taking the time to reply.  This is REALLY good information for me to digest.  It is VERY interesting to me the variance of opinion on the worth of VIP level.  WJ just posted that it has really been whittled down to a nub in many respects at least compared to days past.  Yet you are giving me real life examples at the same time, this year, of how you used your VIP Platinum benefits to book within the 60 day window at a 50% points discount and then rent out those points and make enough to MORE than cover BOTH your developer points MFs AND your non-developer PIC weeks MFs.  If VIP buys this kind of added flexibility/advantage, and gives me the opportunity to cover my MFs in entirety most years if I really learn how to use the system to my advantage, then compared to resale points, I could generate enough savings to cover the expense over a 20 year period.  I will modify the spreadsheet in this thread to account for these use cases and see what the numbers show.  More to come soon on the analytics.



My general approach with a new club is to start out resale with the lowest possible maintenance and try to make rentals work with points beyond personal use.  Once you have a baseline on rental opportunities without VIP, you can more easily determine what kind of a return you might get on VIP.  As long as you don't overpay for resale points, you can get out with limited losses.  Once you pull the trigger on VIP, you are locked-in, since anything you paid the developed will require large losses to exit.

-Scott


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## wjappraise (Jul 6, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> On the other hand I have folks like SD who are saying they DO get often get discounts, upgrades or a combination of the two, often enough to effectively use their points for rentals and cover MFs.  So it seems some have more success in this area than others.



HH - Thanks for the appreciation.  I saw SD's post as well.  I am wondering if his use of the past tense is an indication that he did this type of reserving and renting prior to the changes ushered in 05/20/2017.  If so, those days are long gone.  If he was referencing current conditions, then the window for renting units to cover MFs of those reservation costs as well as a sizable "for owner use" is very slim indeed.  That is what I am trying to do, and I have Platinum VIP with PR contracts to help maximize my margins.  I am finding that the only sustainable method is to solely focus on short lead time reservations (60 days or less).  That allows for finding an already discounted reservation and hoping you have someone who can purchase it.  And there seems to be a relatively robust competition for those types of listings.

My model is more finding reservations for my extended family and other friends.  That does not allow the 60 day reservation to be in play very often.  And that impacts the viability of what I can provide, and the prices I can provide.  So, it has impacted me quite stridently.  

Basically, it falls under the "go big, or go home" mantra.  Either buy in up to Platinum VIP level, which have a heavy buy-in cost even when sweetened with PIC contracts, or buy cheaper resale and use the savings to generate interest income to pay for the fees you will now cover as a non-VIP owner.  Even if you do buy in as Platinum VIP, do not expect to find plentiful upgrades and discounts; they simply do not exist at popular resorts during peak times.  If you want to go to Branson during the winter, you are in luck!!  But forget about getting a discount in Florida during the winter, or summer when school is out.


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## Cyrus24 (Jul 6, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> That said, we will probably pursue VIP Gold initially and stop there, get familiar with the system, grab a resale contract or two if we decide to start renting - those points will still have VIP Gold benefits applied to them right? Then if we find a working model and feel that VIP platinum would somehow be more advantageous, we would then consider another developer points transaction.


This is a very good plan.  At some point, I theorize that Wyndham will implement a calculator that limits VIP discounts, upgrades, etc. to only developer purchased points (and PIC's).  I believe resale points will continue to lose benefits as time passes, it's a matter of just programming the take away into the system.  There is nothing wrong with being Gold, assuming you use PIC's to get there.


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## wjappraise (Jul 6, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> We will probably pursue VIP Gold initially and stop there, get familiar with the system, grab a resale contract or two if we decide to start renting - those points will still have VIP Gold benefits applied to them right?  Then if we find a working model and feel that VIP platinum would somehow be more advantageous, we would then consider another developer points transaction.



I would recommend starting the opposite way, get some resale points and see how the program works and the availability and resorts, etc.  Buy enough that you can make reservations you want and buy in increments of 77,000 (1 reservation transaction per 77,000 points per year).  Buy at resorts with either lower MFs, or at popular resorts you want to use, and might need ARP.  Once you've grown familiar with the product, then see if you want to buy Developer points.  You can add them to your account.  

Plus, that way if Wyndham continues to downgrade the VIP perks, you can choose to bypass that expensive avenue.  The way it is now, the VIP product has simply been devalued too much.  If I were starting afresh, I would not buy VIP at this point.  Prior to this, even though I have seen the light of buying resale, I also was intrigued and liked the VIP perks.  They just are not worth the incredible costs now.  

I just saw a recorded deed for a Platinum VIP ownership.  Owner paid $135,000+ three years ago.  He's hoping to get $10,000 now.  Probably will get $5,000.  True, that contract won't have VIP perks.  But it does speak to the incredible loss potential once Wyndham started unilaterally removing de facto rights of ownership from our accounts.


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## skotrla (Jul 6, 2018)

Braindead said:


> Your last comment on DVC. I thought the same thing the first time you started this spreadsheet analysis stuff trying to compare HIVC to Wyndham.
> 
> I think it’s pretty simple and boils down to just a few things to decide such as:
> Resale,developer or developer with PICs. Under 400k points is automatic resale.
> ...



A spreadsheet can't answer whether Gold is worth $23K, but it can help you quantify the financial benefits that the $23K will get you (guest certificates, discounts 60 days out), helping you to make a determination on whether the non-financial benefits are worth the balance.  You assumptions on how many guest certificates you'll use (likely all of them if you do rentals) and how often you'll get discounted reservations will have a large impact here.  If your usage doesn't match these assumptions, your value from Gold won't match what was calculated - that doesn't mean the spreadsheet was wrong, it just means that you were modeling someone else's usage pattern.

As I've said before, I'm not comparing vacationing vs. not vacationing - I'm comparing taking the same vacations using different paths to get there.  Spending more money for the same vacations means spending less money on something else (maybe more vacations). 

My Wyndham vs. HICV comparison wasn't about choosing one over the other - it was about thinking about an unknown system in the terms of a known system.  For example, if I historically spend 500K points/year on HICV vacations, how many points do I need to be able to do the same amount of Wyndham vacations in comparable units? (704K based on both RCI analysis and DRI exchange values). DVC? (2K based on DRI exchange values).

-Scott


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## Hoosier64 (Jul 9, 2018)

Once you send in the recession letter to the address specified in the contract, where do you send the tablet?  I was more concerned with getting the letter in on time than worrying about a $50 tablet.  I just spoke to someone at Wyndham and he stated that I didn't have to return the tablet but I find that hard to believe.  If there is no specific address, Can I just return the tablet next week when I visit another resort?


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 9, 2018)

Hoosier64 said:


> Once you send in the recession letter to the address specified in the contract, where do you send the tablet?  I was more concerned with getting the letter in on time than worrying about a $50 tablet.  I just spoke to someone at Wyndham and he stated that I didn't have to return the tablet but I find that hard to believe.  If there is no specific address, Can I just return the tablet next week when I visit another resort?



I'm not really concerned at all about the tablet.  Since there is literally zero legal verbiage in the contract about the tablet, unless they ask for it back during the rescission process, I'm not going to address it at all.


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## Braindead (Jul 9, 2018)

Hoosier64 said:


> Once you send in the recession letter to the address specified in the contract, where do you send the tablet?  I was more concerned with getting the letter in on time than worrying about a $50 tablet.  I just spoke to someone at Wyndham and he stated that I didn't have to return the tablet but I find that hard to believe.  If there is no specific address, Can I just return the tablet next week when I visit another resort?


You can keep it. I was told ounce your contract and other info is loaded Wyndham can’t reuse it anyway. Wyndham can’t take a chance someone else could get into your personal data such as email, phone number, address etc.


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## bendadin (Jul 12, 2018)

So where are you at with this?


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 12, 2018)

bendadin said:


> So where are you at with this?



Rescission is in process.  I’m now working on a new deal using PIC, on my own terms this time around. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bendadin (Jul 12, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Rescission is in process.  I’m now working on a new deal using PIC, on my own terms this time around.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



So could you log in from the first purchase? My account is still such a mess.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 12, 2018)

bendadin said:


> So could you log in from the first purchase? My account is still such a mess.



I haven’t tried since Monday but last I tried yes I could still login.  Not really any reason to login at this point since I’m heading in a different direction now.  The telesales rep told me to expect a lot of odd account issues during the transition period.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hoosier64 (Jul 12, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I haven’t tried since Monday but last I tried yes I could still login.  Not really any reason to login at this point since I’m heading in a different direction now.  The telesales rep told me to expect a lot of odd account issues during the transition period.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



What types of deals did the telesales rep have available?  Every so often Wyndham corporate calls me but normally I just let them leave a voicemail. 

I just rescinded a contract last week and I checked today and all the contract information was removed.  I have other Wyndham accounts so I didn't have any problems logging in but I'm looking to add a new deal either via telesales or next week when I visit Williamsburg.  The previous deal I had wasn't that bad but I saw a few posts where the cost were much cheaper so I'm going to attempt to work a deal for the same amount of points but at least $4-5,000 cheaper.  I plan to add two PICs to get back to VIP Gold level.


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## bendadin (Jul 12, 2018)

Hoosier64 said:


> What types of deals did the telesales rep have available?  Every so often Wyndham corporate calls me but normally I just let them leave a voicemail.
> 
> I just rescinded a contract last week and I checked today and all the contract information was removed.  I have other Wyndham accounts so I didn't have any problems logging in but I'm looking to add a new deal either via telesales or next week when I visit Williamsburg.  The previous deal I had wasn't that bad but I saw a few posts where the cost were much cheaper so I'm going to attempt to work a deal for the same amount of points but at least $4-5,000 cheaper.  I plan to add two PICs to get back to VIP Gold level.



I went from $201/1k with 120k bonus (resort sales) to $145/1k with 295k bonus (telesales) plus a rebate for 105k. I added 2 PICs as well. We didn't even attempt to save a few dollars per point as the move was already saving us almost $6k. Now if I could just get that 8 hours 53 minutes back. 

The rescinded contract was loaded really quickly. And so was the new contract. But then the rescinded stuff dropped off. And then so did most of the new contract stuff. So now three weeks later, we have the points and the bonus points as well as the RT that go with them. I have the temporary VIP with unlimited HK. They gave me 5 guest certificates (then deducted the two that I used months ago.) I have Wyndham perks but not plus partners. And none of my contracts are "Wyndhamized." And the PICs are nowhere to be seen, which is the root of most of my problems.

Oh, and my well aged Disney searches on my RCI Wyndham portal have disappeared. That was an added bonus.


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## Avislo (Jul 13, 2018)

What does the term "Wyndhamized" mean?


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## Hoosier64 (Jul 13, 2018)

bendadin said:


> I went from $201/1k with 120k bonus (resort sales) to $145/1k with 295k bonus (telesales) plus a rebate for 105k. I added 2 PICs as well. We didn't even attempt to save a few dollars per point as the move was already saving us almost $6k. Now if I could just get that 8 hours 53 minutes back.
> 
> The rescinded contract was loaded really quickly. And so was the new contract. But then the rescinded stuff dropped off. And then so did most of the new contract stuff. So now three weeks later, we have the points and the bonus points as well as the RT that go with them. I have the temporary VIP with unlimited HK. They gave me 5 guest certificates (then deducted the two that I used months ago.) I have Wyndham perks but not plus partners. And none of my contracts are "Wyndhamized." And the PICs are nowhere to be seen, which is the root of most of my problems.
> 
> Oh, and my well aged Disney searches on my RCI Wyndham portal have disappeared. That was an added bonus.



I would really be interested in finding out who you spoke with to get the deal for $145/1k.  If I can work out a deal without having to waste vacation time, that would be great.


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## Hoosier64 (Jul 13, 2018)

Avislo said:


> What does the term "Wyndhamized" mean?



My guess is, getting Wyndham resale contract to have the same benefits as developer purchased contracts.


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## Avislo (Jul 13, 2018)

Thanks.


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## Richelle (Jul 13, 2018)

Hoosier64 said:


> I would really be interested in finding out who you spoke with to get the deal for $145/1k.  If I can work out a deal without having to waste vacation time, that would be great.



Sent you a PM.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## bendadin (Jul 13, 2018)

Avislo said:


> What does the term "Wyndhamized" mean?



It means being able to use the points for Club Pass. The program fee is. 58/1k.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 13, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Rescission is in process.  I’m now working on a new deal using PIC, on my own terms this time around.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Just got a rescission confirmation email this morning, so I actually DID get a response/confirmation of rescission.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 13, 2018)

Hoosier64 said:


> What types of deals did the telesales rep have available?  Every so often Wyndham corporate calls me but normally I just let them leave a voicemail.
> 
> I just rescinded a contract last week and I checked today and all the contract information was removed.  I have other Wyndham accounts so I didn't have any problems logging in but I'm looking to add a new deal either via telesales or next week when I visit Williamsburg.  The previous deal I had wasn't that bad but I saw a few posts where the cost were much cheaper so I'm going to attempt to work a deal for the same amount of points but at least $4-5,000 cheaper.  I plan to add two PICs to get back to VIP Gold level.



The xxx/1000 points will vary depending on how many points you are looking to purchase.  The higher the points volume, the lower the xxx/1000 points price.  What are you looking to purchase?  I can tell you that I was at 155/1000 for a 126k/174k contract with the sales weasel - and at 145/1000 for a 200k/300k contract.  I'm under 140/1000 for a 105/295k contract with the corporate inside sales rep, which also includes two PIC properties.  There's also a current rebate which drives the xxx/1000 even lower.  I'm actually going with two 105k/295k contracts instead of one 192k/192k contract - which is the minimum needed to obtain VIP Gold with two PIC properties - at a lower xxx/1000 cost so we get more bonus points and obtain temp platinum VIP for a full two years at a slightly higher xxx/1000 cost.  This way we can test drive platinum VIP for two years, after which we drop back to permanent VIP Gold, or pursue another avenue to obtain permanent platinum VIP at that point in time.  PM me if you want to discuss pricing and the corporate sales contact in more detail.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 13, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I haven’t tried since Monday but last I tried yes I could still login.  Not really any reason to login at this point since I’m heading in a different direction now.  The telesales rep told me to expect a lot of odd account issues during the transition period.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I tried last night, my login account has been suspended due to the rescission.  Account still exists (it recognizes the credentials still), but it has been disabled.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 14, 2018)

Credits for our rescission posted in full as of today on the two credit cards we used (the Wyndham card held most of the rescission balance).  Progress! 


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 17, 2018)

New Wyndham contracts in place, pending completion of purchase contracts for the two PIC timeshares.  One PIC purchase contract in hand, still waiting on the other PIC contract from the vendor.  Hoping to close out this whole process this week.


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## bendadin (Jul 17, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> New Wyndham contracts in place, pending completion of purchase contracts for the two PIC timeshares.  One PIC purchase contract in hand, still waiting on the other PIC contract from the vendor.  Hoping to close out this whole process this week.



Good for you!

I am getting nowhere with my account. I am almost at the thirty day mark and my PICs are nowhere to be seen. Hence, the new profile pic, courtesy of Wyndham.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 17, 2018)

bendadin said:


> Good for you!
> 
> I am getting nowhere with my account. I am almost at the thirty day mark and my PICs are nowhere to be seen. Hence, the new profile pic, courtesy of Wyndham.



Sorry to hear dude.  My account is still disabled of course.  We are hoping to get the new contract in place before they delete my current account.

I just received reviewed signed the second PIC purchase contract today and sent it back to Wyndham as proof of purchase.  We should be able to wrap up the Wyndham contracts at this point unless something comes back telling me otherwise.  Baby steps right? 


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## bendadin (Jul 17, 2018)

So as a supposition as to why my account isn't set up properly, they threw it out there that it may have been selected for a random audit, and they asked me to submit a maintenance fee statement and then I never responded to it. So there you have it, the answer to "Do they check?"


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## Hoosier64 (Jul 17, 2018)

bendadin said:


> So as a supposition as to why my account isn't set up properly, they threw it out there that it may have been selected for a random audit, and they asked me to submit a maintenance fee statement and then I never responded to it. So there you have it, the answer to "Do they check?"



This statement answers one of the questions I had last week.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 18, 2018)

Wyndham closing scheduled for July 23 pending completion of all open items, which looks good at this point.  Approaching the finish line finally!


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## breezez (Jul 23, 2018)

I have been reading this thread with amusement and interest.   I have no need for VIP at this time, but possibly when I retire in a few years it may be worth PICing my way to gold with some direct purchases.

But, I know I would be pissed off If I bought points direct so I could PIC only to have resort become a points resort, drop RCI or Wyndham change rules again.

Wouldn’t it just be safer to....   Buy a Platinum persons account under an arrangement.   You pay them going resell rate for the account.   They add you to the account as another member you give them say 500K points for 1 or 2 year for reservations and you pay MF’s then you remove them from the contract a year later.   Now you have a Platinum account for less than $10K plus MF you give up 500K Points for one year.    I am sure their are people nearing the end of their travel days and would be more than happy to work a deal like this vice giving back to Wyndham.   You would also have the $299 fee per contract to add yourself to each one closing and recording fees.

Next I have RCI points and some of what you see at 60 days in Wyndham’s system I can get on RCI for even less than a Platinum VIP even adding exchange fees.   This is hit or miss and a lot of time I can find stuff not even available in Wyndham’s system.

Example I just looked at Austin TX for next month 1 week in 1 Bedroom is 6000 RCI Points I pay about .0082 per RCI point so this unit plus exchange fee of $239 will cost me $288.20 for a week if a Platinum gets a 50% discount this would be 125K points to stay at average of $5.75 /1000points this would cost $718.75 or 249% more than the RCI exchange, plus you can’t get same unit either in Wyndham weekends are not available.    Notice the normal points that are crossed out would still have been cheaper than a Wyndham platinum reservation even with exchange fee.



 

When I first got into Wyndham I felt the need to get to VIP Gold or Platinum, but as time has gone on and I have learned how to better use exchange systems and other TS programs, I’m not so sure it’s worth doing unless I can just take over a VIP’s account leaving status in tact.   But I have a few years to ponder and already more TS’s than I have vacation to use.


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## skotrla (Jul 23, 2018)

breezez said:


> I have been reading this thread with amusement and interest.   I have no need for VIP at this time, but possibly when I retire in a few years it may be worth PICing my way to gold with some direct purchases.
> 
> But, I know I would be pissed off If I bought points direct so I could PIC only to have resort become a points resort, drop RCI or Wyndham change rules again.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure of the exact mechanism, but I've heard that Wyndham will not count points for a unit towards VIP if there is no one from the original Wyndham contract on the deed.  If an agreement can be worked out by which the old owner stays on all of the developed-purchased deeds permanently, then this works, but there's not really any way to completely remove the previous owner and maintain status.  It's possible if the original owner was kept on just one contract, it would work, but there are definitely risks.

-Scott


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 23, 2018)

skotrla said:


> I'm not sure of the exact mechanism, but I've heard that Wyndham will not count points for a unit towards VIP if there is no one from the original Wyndham contract on the deed.  If an agreement can be worked out by which the old owner stays on all of the developed-purchased deeds permanently, then this works, but there's not really any way to completely remove the previous owner and maintain status.  It's possible if the original owner was kept on just one contract, it would work, but there are definitely risks.
> 
> -Scott



I have loosely understood that some people have formed LLCs and put the deeds in the name of the LLC itself which never changes.  Ownership of the LLC can then be transferred to someone else behind the scenes.  I have not done sufficient due diligence on this option to know one way or another though.


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## breezez (Jul 23, 2018)

skotrla said:


> I'm not sure of the exact mechanism, but I've heard that Wyndham will not count points for a unit towards VIP if there is no one from the original Wyndham contract on the deed.  If an agreement can be worked out by which the old owner stays on all of the developed-purchased deeds permanently, then this works, but there's not really any way to completely remove the previous owner and maintain status.  It's possible if the original owner was kept on just one contract, it would work, but there are definitely risks.
> 
> -Scott


Scott

There are other posts on here from past tuggers who did this.  In fact if memory serves me right Ron mentioned this in the past.


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## breezez (Jul 23, 2018)

skotrla said:


> I'm not sure of the exact mechanism, but I've heard that Wyndham will not count points for a unit towards VIP if there is no one from the original Wyndham contract on the deed.  If an agreement can be worked out by which the old owner stays on all of the developed-purchased deeds permanently, then this works, but there's not really any way to completely remove the previous owner and maintain status.  It's possible if the original owner was kept on just one contract, it would work, but there are definitely risks.
> 
> -Scott




Scott -

Here is a past post where this was discussed


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## skotrla (Jul 23, 2018)

breezez said:


> Scott -
> 
> Here is a past post where this was discussed



Right, I understand how it works if you keep the original owner on - I'm not sure exactly what the trigger for Wyndham to take away status is (whether you need to keep the original owner on all deeds or one deed).

-Scott


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 24, 2018)

breezez said:


> I have been reading this thread with amusement and interest.   I have no need for VIP at this time, but possibly when I retire in a few years it may be worth PICing my way to gold with some direct purchases.
> 
> But, I know I would be pissed off If I bought points direct so I could PIC only to have resort become a points resort, drop RCI or Wyndham change rules again.
> 
> ...



Finding a platinum VIP account owner that has properly set up their account via a LLC such that you could actually inherit it by changing the managing partner on the LLC itself is a rare thing indeed.  If you can find one, please let me know.  This is the one and only way that I'm aware of to actually facilitate a VIP transfer via Wyndham.  A trust alone doesn't cut it (trusts are great for family inheritance only AFAIK).  Someone please correct me if my assumptions are wrong here.  

Yes there's always an outside risk that Wyndham will change the PIC rules, or that a resort endures a status change in RCI.  That said, I know several TUG folks who have been PIC'ing resorts for the better part of 15 years without any issues.  In reality, making a sea change to the PIC program would upset a fair amount of Wyndham VIP owners, which would not be in Wyndham's best interests, since at least in  theory, VIP owners are Wyndham's most loyal paying customers.  

I'm also aware that you can sometimes get better deals via RCI than utilizing the Wyndham system.  My original Wyndham sales manager told me the same thing actually.  You have to learn how to work the system as you said, and I wholeheartedly agree.


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## breezez (Jul 24, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> In reality, making a sea change to the PIC program would upset a fair amount of Wyndham VIP owners, which would not be in Wyndham's best interests, since at least in  theory, VIP owners are Wyndham's most loyal paying customers.



I don’t think Wyndham cares too much about upsetting their most loyal fans.   Just ask current Wyndham VIP’s!   

I would trust folks at Wyndham about as far as you can throw them.   VIP is not a guarantee in any part of any contract even if you buy 400K - 1M points through them.   It is an added benefit, but it can be changed at any time.   In some way I feel it will be around always, because you have to have something that makes developer points worth more than resell, but in the next round of changes maybe they will devalue it more.

They could come out and say only developer points qualify for VIP discount and resell points can’t be used for discounted stays.   They may do what some other resort systems do by allowing you to pay another fee to allow resell points to qualify for status.   The point is I would just be careful spending a whopping sum of money only to have them flip the tables on me and my plans.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 25, 2018)

So...we signed PIC contracts on Monday night...and my current login account went from disabled to not working at all now LOL.  I tried registering a new account using the same credentials...and it says those credentials already exist, yet I cannot recover either the username or the password currently.  Fun fun!  Also, yesterday I received our VIP Silver cards in the mail...from the rescinded contract!   Looks like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing internally.   The contract rep also told me that they will need to combine my two accounts into one account since we went with two different contracts as opposed to one single contract for the PIC transactions (significantly more bonus points going this way).  I'm sure it will be measured in weeks not days LOL.


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## bendadin (Jul 25, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> So...we signed PIC contracts on Monday night...and my current login account went from disabled to not working at all now LOL.  I tried registering a new account using the same credentials...and it says those credentials already exist, yet I cannot recover either the username or the password currently.  Fun fun!  Also, yesterday I received our VIP Silver cards in the mail...from the rescinded contract!   Looks like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing internally.   The contract rep also told me that they will need to combine my two accounts into one account since we went with two different contracts as opposed to one single contract for the PIC transactions (significantly more bonus points going this way).  I'm sure it will be measured in weeks not days LOL.



We are five weeks in from our developer purchase (the one that we didn't rescind.) I briefly had Plus Partners but that was torn down when the first contract was disassembled. So my program fee is only .56/1k. I received my member card from the first purchase that we rescinded and then my silver card from our second purchase. I have no idea if I will receive a gold or platinum card. I guess that it doesn't matter. 

They also dumped all of my OGS in my RCI Wyndham portal. That was fabulous. So I set up a couple of new ones (with a new $239 fee.) Now my account shows how many Club Wyndham points I have (in addition to what I have on deposit.) It never read like that before so maybe that is new? Who knows? 

You are at a bit of a disadvantage because this is all new to you. I know how it works and how it should read, so it is easier for me to see the flaws.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 26, 2018)

For those who would like to see the rescission response received from Wyndham, here is a generalized version:

7/12/2018

Re: Contract Number #####
Member Number #####

Dear Customer Name Here, 

We have completed your request to rescind the above-referenced contract. We regret that you have decided not to purchase with Wyndham Vacation Resorts at this time.
Any payments made have been refunded in the same manner in which they were paid.
Should you require further assistance, please contact us at 1-888-739-4016, Mon-Fri 8 a.m.-8 p.m., Sat-Sun 9 a.m.-6 p.m. ET

Sincerely, 

Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc.



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## bendadin (Jul 27, 2018)

I finally have my account working properly after five weeks of working on it. And just in time as I saw that I had a deed recorded a couple of days ago. I have two even year contracts. At first I thought that I would dump them because they are a pain, but I decided to buy a Grand Desert odd contract to offset my lopsidedness a bit. Then I put my adult children on that contract so that I didn't have to pay for guest certificates for them. So we shall see. Next on the docket: depositing PICs.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 27, 2018)

bendadin said:


> I finally have my account working properly after five weeks of working on it. And just in time as I saw that I had a deed recorded a couple of days ago. I have two even year contracts. At first I thought that I would dump them because they are a pain, but I decided to buy a Grand Desert odd contract to offset my lopsidedness a bit. Then I put my adult children on that contract so that I didn't have to pay for guest certificates for them. So we shall see. Next on the docket: depositing PICs.



Sounds great! 

My original login credentials are again working as of yesterday.  I can only see two of the four contracts and just submitted a request to merge two accounts into one so I can see all contracts under my active login.  Progress!  


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## bendadin (Jul 27, 2018)

I'm thinking that you should see 6 altogether. 2 105k, 2 bonus, 2 PICs.


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## Richelle (Jul 28, 2018)

breezez said:


> I have been reading this thread with amusement and interest.   I have no need for VIP at this time, but possibly when I retire in a few years it may be worth PICing my way to gold with some direct purchases.
> 
> But, I know I would be pissed off If I bought points direct so I could PIC only to have resort become a points resort, drop RCI or Wyndham change rules again.
> 
> ...




Any of the program rules can change at anytime Wyndham sees fit. They could one day decide they will no longer allow resale points to be used to book reservations outside their home resort. What will happen with those millions of points people bought resale?  I would imagine they would be difficult to unload if Wyndham won’t take them back through Ovations.   They will only be able to unload it to someone who wants to stay at Whatever contract those points for. I think they would be shooting themselves in the foot by doing that, but they can do it if they can find a way to make it work for their bottom line.  

If they took PIC away, I would imagine that would hurt them as well. We give those weeks to Wyndham in exchange for points. I assume they rent those out. If they find it is not making them money, I assume they would stop it, but it’s been going on for a long time. I would imagine if it wasn’t making them money, they would change the program in a way that would make them money, rather then take it away entirely. I could be wrong. It’s all speculation that I can only make based on what little info I have.  Even if they did take it away, I still have two Fixed weeks that I can use or rent out. One in Williamsburg, and one in Orlando. I would probably use Williamsburg and rent out Orlando. I can also still exchange them within RCI, to stay at one of their many resorts without using my Wyndham points. I would probably exchange them for one of their international resorts. I consider VIP as a bonus with benefits I can use. If a sales guy every tries to tell me PIC is going away and I will lose my status, my response will be “Oh well. It was good while it lasted. I’m not buying more points to obtain Silver when I had Gold.”

What you are suggesting has its risks too. Wyndham knows who the original owners on that contract are. Once they come off, so does VIP status. Sure you can do the Trust route, but that in itself costs money and can be complicated. You’d have to find a seller willing to be added to a trust that they have no control over, and hand over their contract to the trust. A lot of people don’t feel comfortable doing something like that, with a complete stranger because they don’t understand it. So you have to find a Platinum Owner, who knows about trusts, and is willing to go through all that stuff with a complete stranger. I would imagine the seller would charge more then Resale value if they go through all that trouble, and then you have any associated costs with setting up a trust and doing a transfer.  Also, if Wyndham somehow catches wind that the original owner is no longer in the trust, they can remove VIP status. They could even terminate your membership to the program. If they catch wind that people are doing the trust loophole, they could require that the trust provide the list of trust members, and prove that the original owner is still part of the trust. If they suspended hundreds of VIP accounts to do a points audit, I don’t think its to far fetched to think they would suspend accounts that are in trusts, until they get the information they want. 


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 28, 2018)

bendadin said:


> I'm thinking that you should see 6 altogether. 2 105k, 2 bonus, 2 PICs.



Yes you are correct.  I should see six, only see two so far.  The account merges are in progress.


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 3, 2018)

Account merges complete as of yesterday.  I see all six contracts now under a single account (including the two PIC contracts).  Also shows as Platinum VIP and I'm now seeing the 50% points discount on bookings within 60 days.  Finally up and running and ready to book our first Wyndham vacation!


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## harveyhaddixfan (Aug 3, 2018)

Wow. You’ve managed to do all of this is a month. I’m buying resale and started July 6. Just sent the notarized deed back to Sumday on Tuesday.


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## skotrla (Aug 3, 2018)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> Wow. You’ve managed to do all of this is a month. I’m buying resale and started July 6. Just sent the notarized deed back to Sumday on Tuesday.



Notarized POA for the closing company or notarized deed?  Normally buyers don't sign the deed.

-Scott


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## harveyhaddixfan (Aug 3, 2018)

skotrla said:


> Notarized POA for the closing company or notarized deed?  Normally buyers don't sign the deed.
> 
> -Scott



There was a section on the deed that they had me sign. The whole thing was 11 pages long including a thorough description of usage rights.


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 3, 2018)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> Wow. You’ve managed to do all of this is a month. I’m buying resale and started July 6. Just sent the notarized deed back to Sumday on Tuesday.



The closing process doesn’t have to be complete for the PIC process to be validated at Wyndham.  As long as you can send proof of purchase that’s good enough for PIC to proceed forward IME.

EDIT:  The non-Wyndham timeshares that I purchased in July for the PIC process are still a work in progress and from what I was told by both Sumday and J&JTimeshare the closing process will take 90-120 days to complete.  The closing company for J&JTimeshare already uses Docusign but the closing company that Sumday uses does not - so I docusigned their contracts myself (I have a docusign account for business purposes) and sent them back to that closing company to attempt to accelerate the signature processes and it appears to have worked.  I'm hoping to see closure and the deed transfer within 60 days but only time will tell of course.  

The timeshare I purchased through Sumday is a deeded week in the Outer Banks for week 42 which I'm actually entitled to use if the transfer occurs in time.  I'm doubtful it will actually happen but on the off chance it does, we may end up actually using it for 2018.

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## bendadin (Aug 3, 2018)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> Wow. You’ve managed to do all of this is a month. I’m buying resale and started July 6. Just sent the notarized deed back to Sumday on Tuesday.



I bought a deed on eBay in June. It was recorded at the county 30 days later. Granted, I already had a POA on file, but I did have to get licenses and POA for the five family members that I added to this deed.


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## Richelle (Aug 3, 2018)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> Wow. You’ve managed to do all of this is a month. I’m buying resale and started July 6. Just sent the notarized deed back to Sumday on Tuesday.


Yes, retail purchases always seem faster because they give you access to your points before the deed is even recorded.  That back end is still going on.  I do not have a deed for my national harbor retail purchase, but I heard at one point there was a big back log at PG county on deed recording.  Not sure if that is fixed yet.


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