# Getting Screwed by Hawaiian Airlines, 101



## csodjd (May 9, 2020)

I was scheduled to attend my step-daughter's wedding in Hana over Memorial Weekend. I fly American typically and did this time. But I purchased tickets on Hawaiian Air for direct flights to and from Maui for my son (from SFO), my daughter (from SFO), and my other step-daughter (from LAX). Pretty steep fares too, about $400 each way, since it was holiday weekend travel. Needless to say, the wedding is off, hotel closed, quarantined on arrival, etc. I waited until HA canceled the flights to and from Maui, which they have now done. So, time to ask for a refund.

Refund? No. They were "able" (they did, without asking) to rebook the flights to one-stop through Honolulu, with less than a six-hour delay, and so - even though Maui is subject to a 14-day quarantine, the booked flight was canceled, and it changed from a non-stop to a layover in Honolulu - to them that's a "reasonable accommodation" and so they will not refund the fare. Moreover, they screw you on the voucher. If the one-way voucher was for $400 (my daughter's flight back to SF), and the fare drops to $179 each way in the future (as it has), less than $400 RT, she can only use the entire $400 voucher for that one-way fare. Basically pissing $221 into the wind. So the voucher doesn't even have equal value. If the fare is > $400, it only counts for $400. If it is < $400, they charge you $400. That is unconscionable in my view.

*I strongly urge and recommend that NOBODY EVER choose to fly Hawaiian Airlines if they are paying for their tickets.* You are buying a risk. Spend your money on airlines that try to help their customers. (Remember, the US, that's us, the taxpayer, has given them BILLIONS of dollars to help them.) In contrast, American (which my wife and I were booked on) gave full refunds, no questions asked.

*I urge you not to reward an airline with your business for doing what it can to take advantage of its customers in extraordinary circumstances.* Spend your money on airlines that put their customers first. That is NOT Hawaiian Airlines.

Here are some notable quotes from the "Chat" with the HA agent this evening:

"Thank you for patiently waiting. Unfortunately we are unable to provide you with a refund for the other 3 confirmation. DOT guidelines only require that we refund tickets if we cancel a flight and are able to provide a reasonable accommodation (generally more than  6 hour time difference)." Meaning: they are not going to do anything for their customers that they are not absolutely required by law to do.

"Unfortunately we are unable to provide you with a refund as we were able to provide you with alternative accommodations."

"Only the passengers can use the tickets for our tickets are non-transferable, and please be advised that we need to maximize the amount of the Travel Credit." (That last part was in reference to charging the full voucher value even if the fare is less than the value of the voucher. Airline speak for, we're going to screw you if we can.)

"Refund or credit will not be provided if a flight change is made and the applicable new fare is less than the original fare paid."

Disgruntled ex-Hawaiian Air customer.

Craig


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## Kapolei (May 9, 2020)

I have no allegiance to any companies.  Although I will say I am a big fan of Alaska Airlines.  I really like their attitude.  I would fly HA if it was my only option.  But Alaska is normally my go to airline.


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## csodjd (May 9, 2020)

Kapolei said:


> I have no allegiance to any companies.  Although I will say I am a big fan of Alaska Airlines.  I really like their attitude.  I would fly HA if it was my only option.  But Alaska is normally my go to airline.


When looking to use AA miles a lot of the flights that come up are on Alaska. Agree. A good airline generally.


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## Kapolei (May 9, 2020)

csodjd said:


> When looking to use AA miles a lot of the flights that come up are on Alaska. Agree. A good airline generally.


 
The British Airways (Chase card) has nice sign up points that can be used on Alaska.  Alaska is a basic no frills airline run by good people.  I prefer their smaller planes.  I would rather be on a flight with a 100 souls than 350.  Their 1st class is nothing special but can be somewhat affordable.


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## dioxide45 (May 9, 2020)

This is the game that all the airlines are playing.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (May 9, 2020)

The game that the airlines play is that they want to attract the business of people who fly frequently.  They want those customers to divert as much of their flying as possible to the chosen airline. So their first priority is to take care of those regular, frequent customers via the mileage program perks that are given to those flyers.  

Maintaining that customer base builds their passenger loads.  Also, those flyers will will often fly on the selected airline even if it isn't the cheapest flight.  The flip side is that if someone is only an infrequent flyer, the experience won't be quite so pleasant..  It shows up most often when passengers have flight changes - as you are experiencing.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 9, 2020)

@csodjd Sorry to hear about your issues. We had a close call on a few flights in April with United and Alaska but we ended up getting refunds. This was a great lesson for me to book with Southwest and avoid this hassle next time. 

A 6 hour delay is within the guidelines if the same flight is delayed but they are routing you through another airport on a different flight which takes a non-stop to a 1-stop. IMO that is a significant change because you purchased a nonstop; it is not only a hassle to change planes but it exposes your family to potentially more covid exposure through the stop-over airport.

_"In its “enforcement notice,” the DOT said “carriers have a longstanding obligation to provide a prompt refund to a ticketed passenger when the carrier cancels the passenger’s flight or makes a significant change in the flight schedule and the passenger chooses not to accept the alternative offered by the carrier.” _









						DOT to airlines: Refunds are not optional for canceled flights - The Points Guy
					

The Department of Transportation issued a stark message to airlines Friday, reminding carriers that they must to provide cash refunds to travelers whose flight gets canceled. The agency threatened that it would "take enforcement action as necessary."




					thepointsguy.com
				




I would recommend calling Hawaiian again and see if the next agent can be more accommodating, pointing out that rerouting a non-stop to a stop-over flight is a significant change and not acceptable accommodation.

If that doesn't work, file a USA DOT complaint. It takes about 5 minute to fill out the form and they do respond.





__





						File a Consumer Complaint | US Department of Transportation
					

Information about filing airline related complaint for safety and security, airline service, and disability and discrimination complaints.




					www.transportation.gov
				




Good luck!


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## Roger830 (May 9, 2020)

Years ago I was able to cancel a flight to Florida that was a direct changed to one stop and received a full refund.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 9, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> This is the game that all the airlines are playing.


Yes, most of the airlines, but Southwest is my favorite.  Granted, I book only with points because I have Chase credit cards and can move points over, and I get 100% of my points refunded + the $5.60 per leg fee is refunded back to my credit card.  

We have to cancel United to Kauai for 6/6.  I am hoping they let us book Maui with the credit.  That would be my ideal.  It's basically the same price as the ticket we bought to Kauai.  

Alaska is flying us back to Oakland from Kauai.  We were flying SW to Denver from Oakland.  I do love Alaska.  I feel so welcomed by their flight attendants.  The flight attendant on our last United flight kept rolling her eyes at me.  I had my earbuds in, listening to my book and didn't hear whatever question she was asking the first time.  I had to pop my earbuds out to hear.  I guess it was bothering her that I was not paying attention to her.  My SIL was a flight attendant for 33 years for United, and when I told her that, she was sure she knew the woman.  I just knew her first name.  The lady needs to retire.  She apparently hates her job.  And this was first class.


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## csodjd (May 9, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @csodjd Sorry to hear about your issues. We had a close call on a few flights in April with United and Alaska but we ended up getting refunds. This was a great lesson for me to book with Southwest and avoid this hassle next time.
> 
> A 6 hour delay is within the guidelines if the same flight is delayed but they are routing you through another airport on a different flight which takes a non-stop to a 1-stop. IMO that is a significant change because you purchased a nonstop; it is not only a hassle to change planes but it exposes your family to potentially more covid exposure through the stop-over airport.
> 
> ...


Thanks. That's a good reference. I DID emphasize that turning a non-stop into a one-stop with change of plan is not an acceptable accommodation to me, even if it can all be done without delaying me more than six hours (who things a 5-hour change is reasonable?). No luck. In their view, they could route me through Venus as long as the delay is not more than six hours. But, yes, I'm going to take that DOT language and try again.


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## csodjd (May 9, 2020)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> The game that the airlines play is that they want to attract the business of people who fly frequently.  They want those customers to divert as much of their flying as possible to the chosen airline. So their first priority is to take care of those regular, frequent customers via the mileage program perks that are given to those flyers.
> 
> Maintaining that customer base builds their passenger loads.  Also, those flyers will will often fly on the selected airline even if it isn't the cheapest flight.  The flip side is that if someone is only an infrequent flyer, the experience won't be quite so pleasant..  It shows up most often when passengers have flight changes - as you are experiencing.


I am one of their HawaiianMiles customers, and I (used to) fly them pretty regularly. I also have their credit card. I'm certainly not one of their "best" customers, but I have generally flown Hawaiian at least once or twice a year.


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## csodjd (May 9, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> Years ago I was able to cancel a flight to Florida that was a direct changed to one stop and received a full refund.


That is part of American's Contract of Carriage. Refund for any time change of more than one hour, or any change from non-stop to one or more stops.


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## Tamaradarann (May 9, 2020)

csodjd said:


> I am one of their HawaiianMiles customers, and I (used to) fly them pretty regularly. I also have their credit card. I'm certainly not one of their "best" customers, but I have generally flown Hawaiian at least once or twice a year.



We fly Hawaiian from JFK to HNL since it is a direct flight.  However their change policy is not customer friendly.  I love Southwest's change policy and would rather fly them but it would entail at least 2 plane changes from my local airport and an overnight stay between flights.  Now that Southwest is flying between island we are using that as our interisland airline rather than Hawaiian.  Of course Southwest is the best for Florida flights from NY.


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## controller1 (May 9, 2020)

csodjd said:


> That is part of American's Contract of Carriage. Refund for any time change of more than one hour, or any change from non-stop to one or more stops.



That WAS AA's Contract of Carriage. On April 8 they changed to refunds for a change of four hours or more.


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## bnoble (May 9, 2020)

Unfortunately, I don't think DOT defines what "significant change" means, and instead leaves it to the airline's CoC. If Hawaiian's CoC only defines it to be six hours (but not e.g. change in routing, metal, etc.) then in this case they are within their rights to not offer a refund. It might be short-sighted, but they can.

For reference, Delta's threshold for refunds is an arrival difference of 90 minutes or more, which almost always would include any change from a nonstop to a connecting flight.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 9, 2020)

IMO...HUCA (Hang Up Call Again) may help. Who knows? Perhaps the last rep was having a bad day or is new and doesn't know where rules can be flexed.

IMO Asking your family to reroute with a stop at least doubles the risk of Covid exposure because of new flight crews, passengers etc. So use DOT as a fallback especially since other airlines have shorter windows. United had a 24 hour window when this started and DOT shot that down as unreasonable. Covid changed what is reasonable.


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## Kapolei (May 9, 2020)

Tamaradarann said:


> We fly Hawaiian from JFK to HNL since it is a direct flight.  However their change policy is not customer friendly.  I love Southwest's change policy and would rather fly them but it would entail at least 2 plane changes from my local airport and an overnight stay between flights.  Now that Southwest is flying between island we are using that as our interisland airline rather than Hawaiian.  Of course Southwest is the best for Florida flights from NY.



My negative attitude towards HA goes back to the time that I used to fly Aloha interisland.  Aloha was so flexible and Hawaiian was difficult.  So I picked my favorite.  Aloha went bankrupt due to third airline competition and an aging fleet of jets the did not have modern fuel-efficient engines.  Sad loss for the State of Hawaii.  HA should be given credit for the progress they have made as a company and the number they employ.  Now they are in survival mode and they need to survive.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 9, 2020)

HA has historically price gouged inter-island flights. I heard it is the most expensive in the U.S.A. on a cost per mile basis.

Southwest is bringing rationaity to a mostly monopoly market. I do not feel badly for HA


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## csodjd (May 9, 2020)

bnoble said:


> Unfortunately, I don't think DOT defines what "significant change" means, and instead leaves it to the airline's CoC. If Hawaiian's CoC only defines it to be six hours (but not e.g. change in routing, metal, etc.) then in this case they are within their rights to not offer a refund. It might be short-sighted, but they can.
> 
> For reference, Delta's threshold for refunds is an arrival difference of 90 minutes or more, which almost always would include any change from a nonstop to a connecting flight.


So, I just read the actual Enforcement Notice of the DOT dated April 3, 2020. It does NOT support HA in this case. Three things stand out. 

The first is the use of "or." It says, " passengers should be refunded promptly when their scheduled flights are cancelled *or *significantly delayed...." 

Second, the passenger has the right to decline the alternative schedule offered by the airline. It says, "Carriers have a longstanding obligation to provide a prompt refund to a ticketed passenger when the carrier cancels the passenger’s flight *or makes a significant change in the flight schedule and the passenger chooses not to accept the alternative offered by the carrier.*" 

Finally, it references law from 2011 in a footnote rejecting the "accommodation" argument being made by Hawaiian Airlines and rejecting their Contract of Carriage provision: "See Enhancing Airline Passenger Protections, 76 Fed. Reg. 23110-01, at 23129 (Apr. 25, 2011) (“We reject . . . assertions that carriers are not required to refund a passenger's fare when a flight is cancelled if the carrier can accommodate the passenger with other transportation options after the cancellation. *We find it to be manifestly unfair for a carrier to fail to provide the transportation contracted for and then to refuse to provide a refund if the passenger finds the offered rerouting unacceptable* (e.g., greatly delayed *or otherwise inconvenient*) and he or she no longer wishes to travel.”)" 

They go on to explain, per a March 4, 2020, DOT statement, that "Cancelled Flight – A passenger is entitled to a refund if the airline cancelled a flight, regardless of the reason, and the passenger chooses not to be rebooked on a new flight on that airline."

So, the passenger gets to choose and can reject the rescheduled/rebooked flight in his/her discretion.


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## bnoble (May 9, 2020)

csodjd said:


> *or makes a significant change in the flight schedule and the passenger chooses not to accept the alternative offered by the carrier.*"


I read that too. The question is: what is a "significant change"? The answer: it's defined by the Contract of Carriage, and that says anything that changes your arrival by less than six hours is not "significant."



csodjd said:


> *We find it to be manifestly unfair for a carrier to fail to provide the transportation contracted for and then to refuse to provide a refund if the passenger finds the offered rerouting unacceptable*


Right. And the Contract of Carriage defines what was contracted for---it's not as simple as "your original flight."

Personally, I think six hours is outrageous as a definition of irregular operations, and think Delta's 90 minutes is a lot more reasonable. But it's not up to me.


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## csodjd (May 9, 2020)

bnoble said:


> I read that too. The question is: what is a "significant change"? The answer: it's defined by the Contract of Carriage, and that says anything that changes your arrival by less than six hours is not "significant."
> 
> Right. And the Contract of Carriage defines what was contracted for---it's not as simple as "your original flight."
> 
> Personally, I think six hours is outrageous as a definition of irregular operations, and think Delta's 90 minutes is a lot more reasonable. But it's not up to me.


You're missing the import of the use of the word "or." Significant change OR canceled. Fine... significant change is 6 hrs or more. But that's the second clause. The first clause is "canceled." If EITHER occurs (that's what "or" means) the refund requirement is met. 

Moreover, the reason for this enforcement notice was because the DOT is seeking to protect the customer, not inform that airline what they can get away with. It was a threat to bring enforcement action if they are viewed by the DOT as acting unfairly toward the flying consumer. It should therefore be construed so as to effect its purpose, which is consumer protection by ensuring refunds. To that end, in March 2020 they made clear that the passenger does not have to accept the rebooking, irrespective of the time delay. Note the, "or otherwise inconvenient" language. It is clearly "inconvenient" to have a non-stop changed to a stop-over with a plane change.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 9, 2020)

bnoble said:


> I read that too. The question is: what is a "significant change"? The answer: it's defined by the Contract of Carriage, and that says anything that changes your arrival by less than six hours is not "significant."
> 
> 
> Right. And the Contract of Carriage defines what was contracted for---it's not as simple as "your original flight."
> ...



@csodjd +1 the "or" is important. 

United thought 24 hours was  "reasonable" but got overruled by DOT.

I always went by the mantra that if your flight number changed, that constitutes a cancellation. Airlines are playing all kinds of games right now and DOT is backing consumers.


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## Luanne (May 9, 2020)

I'm wondering if this is just the way Hawaiian Airlines has always operated, or if the airlines are now getting desperate to protect some revenue.  I had no problem getting a full refund from Alaska when one leg of a flight changed by two hours and the return leg changed from a non-stop to one stop and added 4 hours to the flight.  I was first offered a credit, but when I said I wanted a refund, no problem. They even returned my companion pass to me.  But, that was a bit earlier.  I'm wondering if now airlines are trying to tighten up on their refunds.


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## csodjd (May 9, 2020)

Luanne said:


> I'm wondering if this is just the way Hawaiian Airlines has always operated, or if the airlines are now getting desperate to protect some revenue.  I had no problem getting a full refund from Alaska when one leg of a flight changed by two hours and the return leg changed from a non-stop to one stop and added 4 hours to the flight.  I was first offered a credit, but when I said I wanted a refund, no problem. They even returned my companion pass to me.  But, that was a bit earlier.  I'm wondering if now airlines are trying to tighten up on their refunds.


It would not surprise anyone, I'm sure, if they were bending over backward to try and hold on to our money, out of perhaps a legitimate fear of insolvency and/or bankruptcy. But for a customer, that is even more reason to demand a refund, because a voucher for an airline that's out of business isn't worth much.


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## tompalm (May 9, 2020)

I am done with Hawaiian. I sold my points and canceled my credit card. I was supposed to fly to Vegas on May 4th and canceled my trip a few weeks ago.  The flight had already been canceled, but that didn’t seem to matter. I didn’t get my money back and was told that I would be given a credit and it would cost $250 per trip per person to use that credit. So $500 RT to fly to Vegas or LA per person and that is about what they normally charge anyway. Additionally, the $89 extra comfort seats and any tax would not be available. So even if I used the credit, that was $400 I will never get back. Other airlines don’t charge as much and have better service. I have a lot of friends at Hawaiian and wish them well.  The company will be fine. But they will have to be a lot cheaper than other airlines before I fly them again.


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## bnoble (May 10, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Significant change OR canceled. Fine... significant change is 6 hrs or more. But that's the second clause. The first clause is "canceled."


No I read it. But canceled doesn’t mean “flight number changed,” nor does it mean “routing changed.” At least, that’s never been my reading of the CoC. I hope I am wrong and you get your money back, I really do. But my prior experience with a bunch of airline changes over the years suggests that if the CoC was written the way it is worded now, they would be making an exception.

You might look to see if that six hour wording is a recent change. If it was different when you bought your ticket, the other interval is the one you could argue for. Check FlyerTalk maybe?



CalGalTraveler said:


> United thought 24 hours was "reasonable" but got overruled by DOT.


...because its Contract of Carriage specifies a shorter period as “significant.” Right now it too is six hours; it used to be shorter. https://thepointsguy.com/guide/change-cancel-united-airlines-flight/


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## csodjd (May 10, 2020)

bnoble said:


> But canceled doesn’t mean “flight number changed,” nor does it mean “routing changed.”


Sorry, but that doesn't pass the smell test. When a flight that goes from A to B is replaced with a different flight that goes from A to C, then you change planes and fly from C to B, your A to B flight was canceled. "Flight" is not a reference to start and end points, it is a reference to the path and means taken. Your off-the-cuff "definition would seem to imply that it is not a "flight change" so long as they get you from A to B, no matter what that involves.


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## csodjd (May 10, 2020)

bnoble said:


> I hope I am wrong and you get your money back, I really do.


For me it is not about the money. The money is not going to change my life at all. It is about exposing the principle, shining light on unfair business practices so people understand what they are facing when they CHOOSE the airline to take. We have choices, and we may choose NOT to fly Hawaiian Airlines if the truth is known. They may squeak a few hundred undeserved dollars out of me, but if I lead to 500 people choosing not to fly Hawaiian Air, and/or lead to a DOT enforcement action, I'm okay with that.


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## Tamaradarann (May 10, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Sorry, but that doesn't pass the smell test. When a flight that goes from A to B is replaced with a different flight that goes from A to C, then you change planes and fly from C to B, your A to B flight was canceled. "Flight" is not a reference to start and end points, it is a reference to the path and means taken. Your off-the-cuff "definition would seem to imply that it is not a "flight change" so long as they get you from A to B, no matter what that involves.



I agree with you.  You bought a ticket and paid a certain price(which may have been greater than other flights) to fly from a specific place, taking off at a certain time, and landing at a specifc place, at a specific time.  Any significant deviation from that is a break in what you paid for.  A hour or so deviation is reasonable.  Six hours is too much.

I recall flying from NY to Tucson in the 1980's for a job interview on American Airlines.  The flight was going through Chicago which I didn't realize at the time was the worst place to go through.  The plane left at about 4PM and bad weather caused the plane not to be able to land so we circled and circled until the pilot made the decision to go to a safe landing airport in Michigan to refuel.  Well by the time we got to land in Chicago I missed the connecting flight to Tucson.  I finally got to Tucson about 5:30 AM in the morning the next day.  I had a 7:00 AM breakfast appointment to start the interview day so instead of getting a good night sleep all I did was take a shower and change my clothes to get prepared for the interview.  Well when I checked in for my return flight a few days later I mentioned my horrible flight experiencce to the American Airlines Associate at the desk.  She upgraded my seat to first class complimentary.   That was good customer service and Hawaiian Airlines needs to learn something about it.  During these flight cancellations we are not expecting Hawaiian Airlines to give us something that we didn't pay for.  We expect them to give us what we paid for nothing more, nothing less.


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## bnoble (May 10, 2020)

Like I said, I hope I am wrong and you are right. Good luck. Maybe The Points Guy's advice of HUCA (Hang Up and Call Again) will be your best bet.








						Can I get a refund if the airline changes my flight schedule? - The Points Guy
					

The policies of the major U.S. carriers vary greatly.




					thepointsguy.com


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## gdrj (May 10, 2020)

tompalm said:


> I am done with Hawaiian. I sold my points and canceled my credit card. I was supposed to fly to Vegas on May 4th and canceled my trip a few weeks ago.  The flight had already been canceled, but that didn’t seem to matter. I didn’t get my money back and was told that I would be given a credit and it would cost $250 per trip per person to use that credit. So $500 RT to fly to Vegas or LA per person and that is about what they normally charge anyway. Additionally, the $89 extra comfort seats and any tax would not be available. So even if I used the credit, that was $400 I will never get back. Other airlines don’t charge as much and have better service. I have a lot of friends at Hawaiian and wish them well.  The company will be fine. But they will have to be a lot cheaper than other airlines before I fly them again.



I have an upcoming inter-island with them in late June, waiting to see if they cancel.  I had another miles flight that was cancelled.  They say it takes 2 to 4 weeks to get miles redeposited and 1 to 2 billing cycles for tax and seat upgrade to be refunded.  I'm not sure if HA is going to survive this, without being bought out or bankruptcy and less routes. I had to cancel flights with AA and SWA and had no issues.


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## gdrj (May 10, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Thanks. That's a good reference. I DID emphasize that turning a non-stop into a one-stop with change of plan is not an acceptable accommodation to me, even if it can all be done without delaying me more than six hours (who things a 5-hour change is reasonable?). No luck. In their view, they could route me through Venus as long as the delay is not more than six hours. But, yes, I'm going to take that DOT language and try again.



I would definitely file complaint with DOT.  I'm far from an expert on this but if the flight is cancelled and new flight is different flight # it qualifies as cancelled. Below is from DOT site
*Am I Entitled to a Refund?*
*In the following situations, passengers are entitled to a refund of the ticket price and/or associated fees.*


Cancelled Flight – *A passenger is entitled to a refund if the airline cancelled a flight, regardless of the reason, and the passenger chooses not to travel.*
Schedule Change/Significant Delay - A passenger is entitled to a refund if the airline made a significant schedule change and/or significantly delays a flight and the passenger chooses not to travel.
DOT has not specifically defined what constitutes a “significant delay.”  Whether you are entitled to a refund depends on many factors – including the length of the delay, the length of the flight, and your particular circumstances.  DOT determines whether you are entitled to a refund following a significant delay on a case-by-case basis.


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## dioxide45 (May 10, 2020)

gdrj said:


> DOT has not specifically defined what constitutes a “significant delay.” Whether you are entitled to a refund depends on many factors – including the length of the delay, the length of the flight, and your particular circumstances. DOT determines whether you are entitled to a refund following a significant delay on a case-by-case basis.


The problem is that the individual airlines define a significant delay and change that definition at will.


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## TravelTime (May 10, 2020)

Fiji Air canceled my flight to Fiji in May. They are not offering a refund. They are giving me a credit to travel through December 2021. Is this a reasonable accommodation or should I be insisting on a refund?


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## CalGalTraveler (May 10, 2020)

gdrj said:


> I would definitely file complaint with DOT.  I'm far from an expert on this but if the flight is cancelled and new flight is different flight # it qualifies as cancelled. Below is from DOT site
> *Am I Entitled to a Refund?*
> *In the following situations, passengers are entitled to a refund of the ticket price and/or associated fees.*
> 
> ...



This. The flight number was changed because the flight was cancelled. Otherwise there is no such thing as a cancellation. Airlines are trying to pull the wool over consumers' eyes by calling such routing changes "modifications." Southwest will automatically rebook as a "modification" but when you call they will provide the refund. 

I think OP has a case and is entitled to a full refund.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 10, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> Fiji Air canceled my flight to Fiji in May. They are not offering a refund. They are giving me a credit to travel through December 2021. Is this a reasonable accommodation or should I be insisting on a refund?



Take the refund. No matter your plans you are entitled to a refund per DOT.  The longer you wait to request the refund, the harder it will be because the companies may run out of money and are trying to preserve cash.


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## TravelTime (May 10, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Take the refund. No matter your plans you are entitled to a refund per DOT.  The longer you wait to request the refund, the harder it will be because the companies may run out of money and are trying to preserve cash.



I asked for a refund and Fiji Air refused. I just googled them and they are not offering refunds. They are probably not covered by DOT because they are not a US airline.


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## dioxide45 (May 10, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> I asked for a refund and Fiji Air refused. I just googled them and they are not offering refunds. They are probably not covered by DOT because they are not a US airline.


If they are flying your flight out of the United States, then the same policy should apply. I would dispute the credit card charge.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 10, 2020)

+1 Start with HUCA and notify them on DOT rules, then DOT filing then dispute the CC as order of priority. You may never see that money again if you don't pursue these actions.


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## csodjd (May 10, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> +1 Start with HUCA and notify them on DOT rules, then DOT filing then dispute the CC as order of priority. You may never see that money again if you don't pursue these actions.


I tried again. Same result. I quoted and cited the DOT rules, the Enforcement Notice, and the Federal Regulations. No luck. I recorded the entire transaction and have submitted it to the DOT with a formal complaint. CC is next up.


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## Luanne (May 11, 2020)

csodjd said:


> I tried again. Same result. I quoted and cited the DOT rules, the Enforcement Notice, and the Federal Regulations. No luck. I recorded the entire transaction and have submitted it to the DOT with a formal complaint. CC is next up.


Keep us posted.  This is just so wrong on the part of Hawaiian.


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## csodjd (May 11, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Keep us posted.  This is just so wrong on the part of Hawaiian.


To their credit, they are showing impressive and consistent determination to do the wrong thing.


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## Luanne (May 11, 2020)

csodjd said:


> To their credit, they are showing impressive and consistent determination to do the wrong thing.


I'm not sure how far up the food chain you've gone with Hawaiian, but besides forwarding your info to DOT you might want to go higher up with Hawaiian as well.  I'm what dh calls a "letter writer".  This was mostly back in the day when the only way you could resolve issues was on the phone or by mail.  When I'd write the letters I'd always include a copy to the president or CEO, customer service and the BBB.  Pretty much in all cases I was successful in getting things resolved the way I wanted.  I learned to write calmly, state the problem and then state what I wanted.


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## csodjd (May 11, 2020)

Luanne said:


> I'm not sure how far up the food chain you've gone with Hawaiian, but besides forwarding your info to DOT you might want to go higher up with Hawaiian as well.  I'm what dh calls a "letter writer".  This was mostly back in the day when the only way you could resolve issues was on the phone or by mail.  When I'd write the letters I'd always include a copy to the president or CEO, customer service and the BBB.  Pretty much in all cases I was successful in getting things resolved the way I wanted.  I learned to write calmly, state the problem and then state what I wanted.


Today I think you just Twitter it. I'm not a Twitter user, but I posted my complaint/rant on Facebook and my daughter hashtagged it. Not sure if that does it or not.


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## Luanne (May 11, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Today I think you just Twitter it. I'm not a Twitter user, but I posted my complaint/rant on Facebook and my daughter hashtagged it. Not sure if that does it or not.


In today's environment I have had good luck with Facebook (I don't have a Twitter account).  But I was mostly contacting airlines and hotels that way because the wait times on the phone were just too long.  I found that either posting something on their website, or sending a private message would get me a quick response, and in all cases my questions were answered or issue resolved (including refunds) quickly.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 12, 2020)

@csodjd FYI United was just over-ruled by DOT for changing the hours rules after the tickets were purchased (i.e. was 2 hours prior to March then changed to 6 hours). Perhaps the same applies for Alaska?









						United's New Refund Policy Is An "Unfair and Deceptive Practice' Per DOT Guidance - View from the Wing
					

Airlines are required to provide a refund when they cancel a flight, or make a significant change to their schedule. Federal law does not define what either of these two things mean, so airlines can create their own definition as long as it's reasonable. United has adopted an unreasonable...




					viewfromthewing.com


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## rickandcindy23 (May 12, 2020)

We are going to be dealing with United for a full refund for my MIL for her first class seat 6/6 on United, nonstop from Denver to Lihue.  The flight hasn't changed (yet) but my mother-in-law is almost 92, and she is terrified of going on the flight with Covid 19.  She just will not go.   We can take the credit for our flights and use it for next February (if Governor Ige even lets us on the island).  

Hawaii is going to lose a lot more than a bunch of businesses.  They are going to lose their status as the ideal vacation for those of us who love it.  We are not going to feel the same, with businesses gone and feeling unwelcome for a year or more.


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## csodjd (May 12, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @csodjd FYI United was just over-ruled by DOT for changing the hours rules after the tickets were purchased (i.e. was 2 hours prior to March then changed to 6 hours). Perhaps the same applies for Alaska?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe Hawaiian has done the same. And I see a class action lawsuit has already been filed against Hawaiian Airlines for refusal to provide refunds for canceled flights in violation of the law, and as an unfair and deceptive business practice.


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## critterchick (May 12, 2020)

csodjd said:


> That is part of American's Contract of Carriage. Refund for any time change of more than one hour, or any change from non-stop to one or more stops.



That was recently changed to four hours, for flights booked after April 17 or thereabouts.


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## csodjd (May 14, 2020)

So yesterday (Tuesday), in response to what they referred to as overwhelming numbers of complaints, the US DOT came down on United and Hawaiian and rejected their efforts to change their definition of a canceled flight retroactively. They said it would constitute an unfair and deceptive business practice. Hawaiian changed their definition of a "canceled "flight April 21, so if you purchased your tickets before that date, the old rule applies. DOT said refunds should be issued within a week According to TPG. 

What a really stupid way for Hawaiian Airlines to alienate passengers at a time when they need consumer loyalty more than ever. I intend to get my refund and fly ANY airline BUT Hawaiian in the future.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 14, 2020)

Glad this worked out for you and that DOT did the right thing. We only used HA for inter-island and I always thought they overcharged for such flights and then charged for baggage fees on top of that. I hope Southwest stays in Hawaii for the long haul.


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## bnoble (May 14, 2020)

bnoble said:


> You might look to see if that six hour wording is a recent change. If it was different when you bought your ticket, the other interval is the one you could argue for. Check FlyerTalk maybe?





csodjd said:


> Hawaiian changed their definition of a "canceled "flight April 21, so if you purchased your tickets before that date, the old rule applies.


I'm glad that turned out to be the case.


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## csodjd (May 14, 2020)

bnoble said:


> I'm glad that turned out to be the case.


Thx. Of course, it is only because the DOT is twisting arms and threatening them. And I have not called yet to see if HA is complying! I've never been impressed when someone does the "right thing" only because they were forced to. I always taught my kids that they should do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, and that's all the reason needed.


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## LisaH (May 14, 2020)

Glad it has worked out in your favor. I have canceled both United and Delta flights and in all cases, a credit is due for the full amount. I am OK with that since I am sure that I will fly with them once the quarantine is over. Just keep my fingers crossed that these airlines won't go belly up before my credits are used up.


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## brianfox (May 16, 2020)

I just cancelled a HA flight that was purchased in an entirely different manner.  Hoping I don't run into any problems.

Purchased in February using Hawaiian Miles for travel June 29, 2020.  Four one-way tickets purchased for a total of 105,000 miles.
Paid obligatory taxes ($22.50) and upgraded to Extra Comfort (4 seats - $320)
Also paid for Allianz insurance, which of course is not Cancel for any Reason, so I will attempt to cancel that policy separately.

Chatted with Hawaiian online - very quick response.
Because my ticket was purchased before March 1, it is NOT eligible for a Covid19 Waiver.
They said they could cancel the flight for free, but any rebooking I did would have to be at the same mileage value per seat.  Meaning 26,250 points or lower.
Rebooking could take place even into 2022.
But I am assuming mileage points will be devalued as a result of this whole lockdown mess, and any seat would cost more miles. 
They said I would NOT be able to add extra miles to rebook, which really sucked.
So I asked if I had the option to cancel flight and redeposit points for a fee.
They said it would cost $150 for the entire itinerary to redeposit points.  I triple asked that it wouldn't be $150 per passenger.
I took them up on it, and for the $150 I will supposedly:

Have 105,000 points added back to my account
Receive a refund of $22.50 for taxes
Receive a refund of $320 for the seat upgrade (I honestly thought that was gone with the wind)
Really hoping this works out well.  Will post update when it happens.
$150 is worth this hassle, especially because I never expected to get the seat upgrade money back.
Even if I get the points back and "all goes well", hoping HA doesn't go out of business, thus erasing my points.


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## Tamaradarann (May 16, 2020)

brianfox said:


> I just cancelled a HA flight that was purchased in an entirely different manner.  Hoping I don't run into any problems.
> 
> Purchased in February using Hawaiian Miles for travel June 29, 2020.  Four one-way tickets purchased for a total of 105,000 miles.
> Paid obligatory taxes ($22.50) and upgraded to Extra Comfort (4 seats - $320)
> ...



I asked for a refund in early April for a May 13 flight for my husband and I from Lihue to JFK that Hawaiian Airlines cancelled.  I received an e-mail about a week ago saying that my 52,000 points will be restored and my account credited with the 11.25 + $320 for the seat upgrades.

However, now I am seeing that if I used my credited points to book a flight for two next year from Honolulu to JFK it will cost more than the 52,000 points.  So perhaps I should have taken a credit.  Of course if Hawaiian goes out of business a credit would be worthless so maybe the cash is King.


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## csodjd (May 16, 2020)

They gave me points back without any fight. But, TODAY, STILL, Hawaiian refuses to comply with the DOT orders, even the latest orders, and they are refusing to provide me a refund for my flights purchased last year for May of this year. I cited the DOT orders and rulings. I gave a link to the DOT document. No luck. The "Chat" customer "service" person refused a refund and said I'd have to email HA and take it up with them. And this is after all the bad PR they are getting. 

This is what the DOT says: "The Aviation Enforcement Office would consider a practice of retroactively applying a new definition of cancellation or significant change that disadvantages passengers who purchased tickets under a more generous cancellation or significant change definition to be unfair and deceptive." 

My tickets were purchased in October. On April 24 I believe it is they changed their policy. But they won't budge. I've emailed their next level up, including a highlighted copy of the DOT enforcement (attached). We'll see. I'm not optimistic that a bad customer service airline will change its tune.


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## dioxide45 (May 17, 2020)

csodjd said:


> They gave me points back without any fight. But, TODAY, STILL, Hawaiian refuses to comply with the DOT orders, even the latest orders, and they are refusing to provide me a refund for my flights purchased last year for May of this year. I cited the DOT orders and rulings. I gave a link to the DOT document. No luck. The "Chat" customer "service" person refused a refund and said I'd have to email HA and take it up with them. And this is after all the bad PR they are getting.
> 
> This is what the DOT says: "The Aviation Enforcement Office would consider a practice of retroactively applying a new definition of cancellation or significant change that disadvantages passengers who purchased tickets under a more generous cancellation or significant change definition to be unfair and deceptive."
> 
> My tickets were purchased in October. On April 24 I believe it is they changed their policy. But they won't budge. I've emailed their next level up, including a highlighted copy of the DOT enforcement (attached). We'll see. I'm not optimistic that a bad customer service airline will change its tune.


Have you opened a complaint with DOT.


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## ba2471 (May 17, 2020)

did/does southwest airlines fly inter-island?


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## Luanne (May 17, 2020)

ba2471 said:


> did/does southwest airlines fly inter-island?


Yes SW has inter-island flights.


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## ba2471 (May 17, 2020)

thank you.  Will plan on that.


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## csodjd (May 17, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Have you opened a complaint with DOT.


Yes. And I'll probably file a follow-up complaint since even after the latest DOT notice they are still doing it.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 18, 2020)

Looks like Hawaiian is finding more ways to tighten their belt:


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## dioxide45 (May 18, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Looks like Hawaiian is finding more ways to tighten their belt:
> 
> View attachment 20864


I have noticed a lot of companies pulling out of online "malls" like the Rapid Rewards Shopping and United Shopping. Best Buy used to be in them all. Along with Bed Bath & Beyond. Some others. Now those aren't in any of these malls. I think it is just another way of saving advertising dollars.


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## bnoble (May 18, 2020)

It's also a way to preserve cash. The airlines have to pay cash money for things you buy with points in one of those marketplaces.


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## dioxide45 (May 18, 2020)

bnoble said:


> It's also a way to preserve cash. The airlines have to pay cash money for things you buy with points in one of those marketplaces.


I think the Hawaiian Airlines online mall is just a shopping portal where you shop at everyday online retailers and earn Hawaiian Airline miles in their program. Marriott had a portal many years ago and dumped it. Others like United, American, Southwest all have similar portals. Kind of like Ebates (some different stupid name now), which you earned cash back instead of points.

It doesn't sound like they are doing away with purchasing merchandise with points. Not sure if they ever had that.


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## dioxide45 (May 18, 2020)

These portals are actually a way to make money for the points programs. They sell the points to the vendor who gives them out to people who buy through their portal. The portal makes money by earning a commission % from all the retailers they sign up.

I suspect this decision to discontinue the mall is actually independent of COVID. Perhaps a decision was made months ago. Perhaps they were coming up on the end of their contract with whichever vendor they use to support the mall and couldn't come to a new agreement. Perhaps they wanted to charge more for the miles that they sold and the vendor balked. WHo knows. I suspect the margins are slim on the miles they sell with these partnerships and coming to a new agreement didn't happen.


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## brianfox (Jun 2, 2020)

UPDATE: 
Everything went well.

The date I spoke with HA and paid the $150 was 5/16

105,000 miles redeposited to my account - 5/22
$22.50 in taxes refunded to CC - 5/22
$320 seat upgrade refunded to CC - 6/2




brianfox said:


> Purchased in February using Hawaiian Miles for travel June 29, 2020.  Four one-way tickets purchased for a total of 105,000 miles.
> Paid obligatory taxes ($22.50) and upgraded to Extra Comfort (4 seats - $320)
> Also paid for Allianz insurance, which of course is not Cancel for any Reason, so I will attempt to cancel that policy separately.
> 
> ...


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## maui-or-bust (Jul 8, 2020)

brianfox said:


> UPDATE:
> Everything went well.
> 
> The date I spoke with HA and paid the $150 was 5/16
> ...


Basically  same for me . A buddy and I sent  this to* customer_advocate@hawaiianair.com :*
Description: 
On the advice of our doctor, my wife and I are unable to travel this summer due to the Covid-19 pandemic. I’ve spoken to Hawaiian Airlines customer service department regarding our cancellation options. The first option is to receive vouchers for my wife and I, good until May 31, 2022. We can only use the vouchers for the same amount of points as our current reservation. This is not acceptable due to me making the reservation at a special point rate. This restriction makes it impossible to book the same flight at a later date. The second option is to return all of the points back to my Hawaiian Airlines account. However, I was told I would be charged a cancellation fee of $150. This too is unacceptable.

Response:
We apologize for the delayed response - as you can imagine, we're seeing unprecedented levels of contacts during this time.

As a one-time courtesy, we will redeposit the HawaiianMiles used to pay for your award tickets waiving the normal redeposit fees. Please allow up to 14 business days for these miles to be posted to your account.

We're also refunding your Extra Comfort fees of $356 (total). The refund will be credited to the original form of payment, credit cards ending in---- and ----. This transaction should appear on your next credit statement or the one thereafter. Please note, due to the overwhelming amount of refund requests there may be a delay in receiving your refund and miles. We certainly appreciate your patience in this matter.

Took about a week , All is fine.  With a little persistence. 
I always say:  " You have to ASK to GET"  
Sometimes more than once.  
John


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## csodjd (Jul 8, 2020)

It is sad, however, that they hide the good customer service behind the wall of a customer service department that will not help you get that refund. That, to me, is deceptive and not good customer service. Moreover, I suspect the reason you got it done as "easily" as that is because the DOT has come down on them along with multiple news reports, TPG, etc. Good customer service would empower the person you first spoke to to do what you eventually got done by being persistent.


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