# We Are Coming for Your Phony Service Animals



## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 26, 2019)

from Flyer Talk:

We Are Coming for Your Phony Service Animals


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## x3 skier (Nov 26, 2019)

YESSSSS!

Cheers


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 26, 2019)

I was walking through SeaTac airport a month ago, near the entry to Concourse C, and came across two dogs, both wearing "service animal" vests, yipping at each other, nose-to-nose.  They were both on hand-held leashes from their owners, the owners standing about 15 feet apart from each other.  So these two supposed "service animals", yipping at teach other nose-to-nose, with leashes extended, were blocking nearly one-third of the width of the transit area on one of the busiest concourses at one of the busiest airports in the US.  And neither owner was doing anything beyond not letting out any more leash.

My mother taught me that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.  So I bit my tongue.


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## geist1223 (Nov 26, 2019)

Properly trained service dog would not be engaged in the above behavior.


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## Luanne (Nov 26, 2019)

geist1223 said:


> Properly trained service dog would not be engaged in the above behavior.


And, if for some reason a true service animal was behaving in this manner, it can be removed.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 26, 2019)

geist1223 said:


> Properly trained service dog would not be engaged in the above behavior.


Precisely my point.  These were clearly not service animals, and passing them off as service animals was an affront to both owners and people who truly rely on and use service animals. 

++++++++++++++

IMHO - the situation is out of control.  Since individual airlines are the ones that I believe should be responsible for flight line issues, I think I am in favor of a program in which passengers can't bring an animal into the passenger cabin unless the animal is cleared by the airline.  And that clearance involves getting approved by a professional that is designated by the airline, and provided at the expense of the traveler.  If you want to fly with your animal, you contact one of the professionals on the airlines list to get approval.  You provide whatever documentation that individual requires to get clearance as either a service animal or an emotional support animal, with any attendant special provisions.  And you do it at your expense.  You can't just show up at the gate with your animal in a vest and expect to be boarded.  

I can see where this would easily evolve to a situation where an animal gets the equivalent of a known traveler number for an airline. After the animal has been cleared once, the animal is approved for future travel unless an incident happens to revoke approval.  

Companion to that would be some form of rule relieving the airline of liability for the decisions they make, so that the airline staff can make decisions they feel appropriate without feeling as if they need to tilt in favor of bending rules to allow boarding.  Explanation: if you devise a system where there is little to no liability for allowing a questionable boarding, but there is significant liability if you deny a questionable boarding, you will end up with a system in which all questionable boardings are allowed.  And that wouldn't be any different from what we have now.


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## Sandy VDH (Nov 26, 2019)

I applaud any changes in this area.  The fake service animal BS is gone way way too far.   It does a huge dis-service to real legitimate service animal.  Pun intended.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 26, 2019)

Another option would be to allow airlines to designate specific flights as animals or not allowed.  I strongly support that true service animals should be allowed on any flight, so I would accompany that with strict provisions to identify animals that are truly service animals and allow those animals on any flight. 

As to pricing, I would simply allow airlines to sort that out in the marketplace.  Is there more revenue from charging a premium for an animal free flight and what should that premium be?  Or is there more revenue from charging people an extra fee to bring their animal on the plane and what should that fee be?

And I would quit all of the nonsense about emotional support animal.  If the animal is a truly qualified and verified service animal, the animal boards along with the passenger. All other animals pay a fee set by the airline, whether that be as an add-on fee or as embedded in the fare for an animals allowed flight. And if the animal is so large as to intrude on into another seat, then a second ticket needs to be purchased, with the airline having discretion as to whether the second ticket is required.  So if you show up at the airport with a Great Dane and only one ticket, you might end up not being on that flight.  Passenger bears the risk, not the airline. 

Is it harsh to require people who need emotional support animals to pay more to travel?  I submit that this is no more harsh than when people who have people who have special needs buy a car.  We don't require that auto dealers sell a special needs modified van for the same price as Chevy Spark.


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## pedro47 (Nov 27, 2019)

Thanks you and Thanks you.
Can a pit bull be a service animal ?


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## WinniWoman (Nov 27, 2019)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Another option would be to allow airlines to designate specific flights as animals or not allowed.  I strongly support that true service animals should be allowed on any flight, so I would accompany that with strict provisions to identify animals that are truly service animals and allow those animals on any flight.
> 
> As to pricing, I would simply allow airlines to sort that out in the marketplace.  Is there more revenue from charging a premium for an animal free flight and what should that premium be?  Or is there more revenue from charging people an extra fee to bring their animal on the plane and what should that fee be?
> 
> ...



I don't buy the emotional support animal bs at all. All pets are emotional support animals. That is why people have pets in the first place. They fill an emotional need for love and so on. Service animals only- like seeing eye dogs, etc.  SMH....


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## WVBaker (Nov 27, 2019)

WinniWoman said:


> I don't buy the emotional support animal bs at all. All pets are emotional support animals. That is why people have pets in the first place. They fill an emotional need for love and so on. Service animals only- like seeing eye dogs, etc.  SMH....



*How Do I Make My Pet Into a Legitimate Emotional Support Animal?*

"It is required by law that you obtain an ESA Letter beforehand. If you are seeking an emotional support animal, you must have a verifiable disability and a legitimate need for an emotional support animal. Before issuing an ESA letter, your medical professional will assess your needs and determine whether you meet the federal definition of having a disability. If your current doctor is ignorant to the benefits of an ESA or if you do not have access to a therapist, ESA Doctors can help connect you with a therapist to see if you qualify for an ESA letter."

https://www.servicedogcertifications.org/emotional-support-animal-laws/


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## x3 skier (Nov 27, 2019)

It is “interesting” that people traveled for years without so-called emotional support animals until they found out they didn’t have to pay a fee or use a carrier if they bought a cheap vest for their pet. 

Cheers


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## heathpack (Nov 27, 2019)

x3 skier said:


> It is “interesting” that people traveled for years without so-called emotional support animals until they found out they didn’t have to pay a fee or use a carrier if they bought a cheap vest for their pet.
> 
> Cheers



Not that I condone the “fake service dog” behavior (nor would I ever engage in such behavior personally) but there’s a multitude of reasons people tell me they’ve gone the fake service dog route.

The most common one is the dog has a serious (life threatening) medical condition and is too large to fly under the seat.  

For example, I have a client who is an elderly lady with a Labrador with terrible epilepsy.  The dog can have 25 seizures over 1-2 days.  The lady’s family is in Massachusetts, she lives in LA and every year she spends the entire summer with the family.  I’ve recommended strongly against the dog flying in the cargo hold, so for years, she rented a car and spent 3 days driving cross country with the dog.  Last year she finally decided she was too old to be doing that (she’s 80+ years old) and told me she’d gone the fake service dog route.  I was shocked because she’s this old-school patrician-type who I would have expected to be the first to follow every rule to the letter.  I’m sure it’s stressful for her to have to lie.  But her options are few- euthanize her dog, try to find an alternative home for a terrible epileptic, try to find someone to watch a terrible epileptic for 4 months, not go home for the summer anymore, hire a driver for 3 days of travel, etc.

Additionally, most airlines are scary in the way they handle pets flying in cargo.  Animals die (mostly from heat stress) and are lost (animal bolts a carrier when the door is open) routinely.  It’s hard for me to understand where the mistakes are made because most of what the airlines do when handling animals in cargo isn’t really that hard.

The other factor on the rise is that people increasingly see their pets as family members, not “just” animals that can be easily replaced.  This has reasonable consequences- reluctance to fly pets in cargo.  Irrational but non-problematic consequences- increasing desire to travel with their pets overall.  And crazy consequences- lack of training/discipline or enforcement of rules of “public” behavior with the sense that your “beloveds” (pets or kids) behavior should never be an annoyance to others.

So I think what airlines really need to do is get their finger on the pulse as to why people fly with pets and meet those needs.  It might mean that flying with a pet is a rare and expensive and inconvenient thing- ie there’s only occasional  flights that will accommodate pets.  But IMO if there’s zero alternative offered beyond “fly them in cargo” then people are forced to investigate work-around options, which then get shared far and wide on the internet and it starts to normalize this behavior to some people.

It’s tough because your average member of the public these days does not have a mindset of ‘greater good’.  If Fluffy could reasonably fly in cargo and the airlines fixed the problems with flying in cargo, a large number of people would still try to circumvent the system so that Fluffy could sit next to them on the plane.  So culturally we have a problem in this country that has many ramifications beyond fake service dogs.

I personally prefer to travel with my dogs.  They are small and could fly under the seat if it ever came to needing to fly them.  It would be pretty uncommon that I’d take them on an airline related trip though, mostly road trips. But they’re good travelers, crate trained and well behaved in public.  We make adjustments to our travel to accommodate them of course, but still if we can manage a pet friendly condo based road trip, they’re joining us.  They take at least one vacation a year with us.  The biggest limiter to them not traveling more with us is the pet-unfriendly nature of timeshare travel.


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## WinniWoman (Nov 27, 2019)

Leave your pets home period. Unless You truly need them due to physical limitations like being blind. That is what pet boarding is for. Many veterinarians have boarding. Or get a pet sitter. Deal with it. This is the way it is when you have a pet. Or else- don't have a pet.


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## AJCts411 (Nov 27, 2019)

And to those who are terrified of dogs, allergic, or who just plain don't like them?  Those who abuse the system should expect to be denied boarding.  And when you do...please take your childish tantrum to the parking garage.  

A certified, trained service animal, certified by a national recognized/licensed organization...whole different story.


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## heathpack (Nov 27, 2019)

WinniWoman said:


> Leave your pets home period. Unless You truly need them due to physical limitations like being blind. That is what pet boarding is for. Many veterinarians have boarding. Or get a pet sitter. Deal with it. This is the way it is when you have a pet. Or else- don't have a pet.



I flew with my pet in an under the seat carrier once.  My mother was ill and I was flying cross country for an unspecified period of time.

I actually have a place I could leave the dog (my clinic) for an undetermined period of time, but 1. It would not be good for her and 2. Most people don’t have ready access to that type of accommodation for the dog.

Really your position is IMO absurd.  Don’t get a dog if you ever might move or have a distant family member become ill or have a dog develop an undesired but severe medical condition.

That’s ok for you to say, since obviously you can take-it-or-leave it as far as owning a pet goes.  But there’s lots of positives to pet ownership- physical and mental health benefits- that just telling people to not own pets at all because that’s the solution that worked for you is silly IMO.


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## WinniWoman (Nov 27, 2019)

Well- there are exceptions but then there is also cargo. I know- not ideal by any stretch. 

For some traveling by car might be an option.

I am a big dog lover btw. I have had dogs all my life. I have not gotten another since my last ones passed in 2011 because I know we still will travel and need freedom.


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## WVBaker (Nov 27, 2019)

"Science may have found a cure for most evils; but it has found no remedy for the worst of them all - the apathy of human beings."
Helen Keller


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## heathpack (Nov 27, 2019)

WinniWoman said:


> Well- there are exceptions but then there is also cargo. I know- not ideal by any stretch.
> 
> For some traveling by car might be an option.
> 
> I am a big dog lover btw. I have had dogs all my life. I have not gotten another since my last ones passed in 2011 because I know we still will travel and need freedom.



That’s a great solution for you I’m sure, but there’s a lot a people at your stage of life who would benefit from owning a pet.  Because you’ve found a solution for you doesn’t mean that everyone else should avail themselves of the same solution.

Cargo should be a last resort IMO.

I’m in the business and I can tell you that leaving an animal in a boarding facility for weeks to months is a bad option.

Forcing a family moving overseas to find a new home for a pet- bad option.

Traveling by car is how I’d do it when possible.  But it takes 3 days to drive across country and that’s not always possible.  Years ago, my father died unexpectedly.  I was on a flight (with my large dog in cargo, no other option) within hours.  Driving over night solo by myself on zero sleep when upset by a death in the family- bad option.

My point being- there are sensible reasons people need to travel with animals.  Saying they just shouldn’t have a pet in case one of these issues should arise is unreasonable IMO.


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## Luanne (Nov 27, 2019)

WinniWoman said:


> Leave your pets home period. Unless You truly need them due to physical limitations like being blind. That is what pet boarding is for. Many veterinarians have boarding. Or get a pet sitter. Deal with it. This is the way it is when you have a pet. Or else- don't have a pet.


Well, there is the case when someone is moving, and flying, to their new destination.  My bff did this with her cat.  She and he daughter flew cross country, with the cat.  Their cars were shipped.


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## Synergy (Nov 27, 2019)

When I moved cross country on short notice, we were able to pay a reasonable fee to bring the cats onboard with us in carriers.  When it came time to move back home, I had the luxury of having time to drive back.  I would have walked with the cats on leashes before putting them in cargo, but Southwest made safe travel with them very easy when driving wasn't an option.


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## WinniWoman (Nov 27, 2019)

Well- so I get everyone's point. Maybe as someone else suggested the airlines should have flights solely for people with non service animal pets. That would solve almost everything.


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## silentg (Nov 27, 2019)

The photo on my avatar is my Grand dog. He goes everywhere with my daughter, he usually prefers to stay home now because he is 13 years old and has trouble seeing. Not a service dog or ESA just a good companion for my daughter and SIL.
When they travel he stays with us or I go over to their place to visit him.
Never been on a plane or a store or stayed in a timeshare.
He does go to work with my daughter, he loves to be with her.
We agree that he is a pet and no special vest is appropriate.
Silentg


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## WVBaker (Nov 27, 2019)

WinniWoman said:


> I don't buy the emotional support animal bs at all.



I, on the other hand, completely understand the benefit of an emotional support animal.

Having retired from law enforcement, I have seen and experienced both the worst and the best of people. Inside me, the one thing that has terrified me the most throughout life, was a visit to a Dentist. One of those trips you can only put off for so long. Now understand, I'm not talking simple uneasiness or apprehension. My blood pressure would escalate from normal, prior to walking through that door, to a high 
of 179/138 on occasion when entering. Taking Valium prior to a visit was the one and only way I could or would do it. I had an occasion that even that didn't work. It became such a problem that my previous dentist refused to perform any procedures. Not even a simple cleaning.
A friend recommended a new dentist that understands this and had a solution. Upon walking into the office, signing in and taking a seat, I was met by two yorkshire terriers who jumped up into the seat next to me. I understood at this point, that this was not going to be just another dreaded visit to the dentist. 

I discovered that these two girls make their rounds the same as any dental assistant. If needed, they will stay by your side for any procedure.

Cal this "bs" if you wish however, with a little furry emotional support, I can complete this visit with blood pressure in check and without medication.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 27, 2019)

WinniWoman said:


> Well- so I get everyone's point. Maybe as someone else suggested the airlines should have flights solely for people with non service animal pets. That would solve almost everything.


I think that is a good, non-government regulated solution.  Another option might be to reserve a certain portion of the cabin as animals allowed, with pricing options similar to that used for any other type of preferred seating.


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## Sandy VDH (Nov 27, 2019)

No one ever said that Emotional Support animals do not offer some level of comfort.  However, claiming they are SERVICE dogs, which perform a specific task for their owner and are trained to perform that task, does not make pets that provides emotion support a service animal.  

Frankly owners of these ESA type Pets that are NOT trained nor controlled well are what are ruining it for everyone else. 

The problem lies in the Services animals are a protected class, and just anyone's pet is NOT.  Getting protected class privileges for a pet that does not warrant protected class is the issue.


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## easyrider (Nov 27, 2019)

If given the option, I think I would pay more to be on a flight that is adult only. No kids or animals. I get why people bring animals and kids and I like animals and kids but I don't like them so much on an airplane.

Bill


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## x3 skier (Nov 27, 2019)

I say again, this was not a problem until persons found out they could buy a cheap vest and fly a pet for free. Suddenly a whole new class of ailments can be cured by bringing a pet on board where before, people survived the horrible experience of leaving their pet behind or finding other solutions.

ESA only flights are certainly possible and would likely be priced at 100 times or more the average price of a ticket since flying a 160 passenger plane with 5 or 6 people with their so called ESA at the current fare certainly isn’t going to be economically viable. Additionally, there aren’t enough aircraft in the world to cover the current flight routes with ESA only routes. One could use NetJets or WheelsUp charters if that’s the answer.  Actually, I wonder if those operators allow such flying of pets.

Friends of mine fly rescue animals all over the country in their private aircraft on a volunteer basis. I asked if they would transport these ESA if asked and was told if space was available, they would. 

The whole idea of non carrier contained or non cargo animals other than true Service Animals aboard a commercial aircraft is rubbish.

Cheers


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## WVBaker (Nov 27, 2019)

Oh well... I suppose one man's "rubbish" is another man's treasure. 

As Mark Twain once said... _"He that does not care for flowers calls them rubbish, and cannot tell one from another, and thinks it is superior to feel like that."
_
Cheers


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## WinniWoman (Nov 27, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> I, on the other hand, completely understand the benefit of an emotional support animal.
> 
> Having retired from law enforcement, I have seen and experienced both the worst and the best of people. Inside me, the one thing that has terrified me the most throughout life, was a visit to a Dentist. One of those trips you can only put off for so long. Now understand, I'm not talking simple uneasiness or apprehension. My blood pressure would escalate from normal, prior to walking through that door, to a high
> of 179/138 on occasion when entering. Taking Valium prior to a visit was the one and only way I could or would do it. I had an occasion that even that didn't work. It became such a problem that my previous dentist refused to perform any procedures. Not even a simple cleaning.
> ...




Well then everyone's pet is an emotional support animal just as I stated. Everyone should be able to bring their pets on board.


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## geist1223 (Nov 27, 2019)

I am sorry I am for banning all nonhuman animals from all means of public transportation other than properly certified and true Service Animals. I understand this means all ESA would be banned.


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## x3 skier (Nov 27, 2019)

WinniWoman said:


> Well then everyone's pet is an emotional support animal just as I stated. Everyone should be able to bring their pets on board.



Since I’m an Emotional Support Animal to my Girlfriends and Kids I think I’ll get a sweatshirt printed with “Emotional Support Animal” on the front and back and fly for free with them.

I’ll bring a leash just in case.

Cheers


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## WinniWoman (Nov 27, 2019)

easyrider said:


> If given the option, I think I would pay more to be on a flight that is adult only. No kids or animals. I get why people bring animals and kids and I like animals and kids but I don't like them so much on an airplane.
> 
> Bill



I don't know about kids, but certainly the people who bring pets on board should pay more, not the other way around.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 27, 2019)

geist1223 said:


> I am sorry I am for banning all nonhuman animals from all means of public transportation other than properly certified and true Service Animals. I understand this means all ESA would be banned.


I don't think a ban on private carriers is needed.  I simply think that companies should be allowed to make whatever rules they see fit, including fare differences and identified seating areas, regarding carrying animals (other than true service animals), and for them to be relieved of liability if they deny boarding to someone who claims they are being discriminated against. As regards service animals, they should be free to create whatever requirements they see for documentation that the animal is truly service animal.  

If we do that, I expect the market will respond so that airlines will charge a premium for bringing an animal on board, carriers will establish some mix of animal-free flights and designated seating areas with animals.  

Responsible organizations will emerge to certify service animals; those organizations will have to do their job because it they don't airlines will stop accepting their certifications.  Logically, this would be done by organizations that are legitimately involved with training service animals, and will be a way for them to make some additional money - which will enable them to do a better job of providing service animals to those who truly need them and can help subsidize the placement of service animals with people who need them but don't have financial means.


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## Pompey Family (Nov 29, 2019)

Fortunately Emotional Support Animals are not acknowledged in the UK for transportation purposes and the only animals allowed in the cabin of aircraft, some trains and some ferries are formally recognised service dogs (I believe the rules are the same for much of Europe).
I have a service dog who is nine months through her twelve month training period (two hour sessions twice weekly), she will undergo an examination and if she passes will be fully accredited. As it is, even in training, every restaurant or store I've entered have allowed her in after I've asked for permission. In restaurants she is trained to go under the table, not to solicit food or attention, most people wouldn't even know she was there and for the most part she uses the opportunity to take a nap. The dogs are trained not to toilet whilst wearing their vests in order that they can relieve themselves at appropriate times and places. Airlines are obliged to accept them on board however you can't just turn up and expect to be accommodated, the airlines require advance notice. The dog is carried free if it can fit under the seat in front (mine can just about) otherwise you have to pay for a seat however most airlines try to place you in the bulkhead seats.

Unfortunately, whilst I can provide her with the experiences of travelling by bus, train and boat there is no way of establishing what her reaction would be to flying as only accredited dogs can be accepted. I know that Qantas Airlines allow dogs on certain flights to establish how they cope but there are no British or other European airlines that offer a similar service. I understand that British Airways are looking at ustilising a simulator at their training headquarters.

The idea that service dogs can be associated with Emotional Support Animals (few, if any, have had anywhere near the training required for a service dog) is one that is unjust and I fully support the ban on bringing any old pet on board an aircraft.


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## heathpack (Nov 29, 2019)

@pompeyfamily you are correct at to airline policies towards pets flying in the U.K. but you are incorrect regarding airline policies towards pets flying in Europe

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepoi...ake-pets-on-board-a-flight-within-europe/amp/


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## Pompey Family (Nov 29, 2019)

Thank you Heathpack. That's interesting to know although I would have liked the article to have been a bit more comprehensive rather than providing two examples of European carriers particularly as the author states that the rules are different in mainland Europe.


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## WVBaker (Nov 29, 2019)

Traveling with your "*emotional support animal" *without any additional fee or costs is allowed by airline carriers if you have an ESA letter.

*American Airlines*
American Airlines acknowledges the needs of an individual who requires an emotional support animal or psychiatric service animal. The company requires supporting documents to facilitate the request, such as an ESA travel letter issued within the year of travel.

*Delta Airlines*
Delta Airlines recommends an early notification about traveling with animals when booking reservations and you can already request for a seat assignment while doing so.  The animal, however, will be required to stay on the floor beside the individual’s seat.

*JetBlue*
As with other airlines, JetBlue’s requirements for ESA travel is a documentation that has the following, per the company website.

*Southwest*
Southwest Airlines allow for travel of emotional support animals within the cabin, except for destinations to Jamaica. 

*United*
Flying with an Emotional Support Animal on United Airlines requires documentation similar to other companies. However, the airline has some rules as to where the animal should be within the aircraft’s cabin. Specifically, “an animal should sit at the customer’s feet without protruding into the aisles to comply with safety regulations. 

*Alaska (formerly Virgin)*
Alaska Airline’s ESA policy for travelers with emotional support animals is standard and as with the rest, the ESA letter should be issued not more than a year before traveling.

https://esadoctors.com/airline-requirements-for-traveling-with-an-emotional-support-dog/


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## Sugarcubesea (Nov 29, 2019)

I’m severely allergic to most dogs and I travel a ton for work and thankfully I get to sit in comfort plus most of the time or first class. This has gotten so out of hand. I fully support service animals that are support animals.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 29, 2019)

The problem is that there are on-line ESA certificate mills that will get you an ESA letter for about $50.  It's easier to get a phony ESA certificate than it is for a college freshman to get a fake id.

+++++

As I've said upthread, I think the simplest thing to do is to drop the whole game of charades.  Allow passengers to bring pets on board, in accordance with whatever rules are set by the airlines.  The airlines will devise a scheme that will allow them to make more money, which they logically should when they provide an additional service. 

The exception, of course, is for legitimate service animals, and again the airlines can adopt whatever policies they desire to ensure that the exception is extended to animals that are truly qualified.


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## heathpack (Nov 29, 2019)

Pompey Family said:


> Thank you Heathpack. That's interesting to know although I would have liked the article to have been a bit more comprehensive rather than providing two examples of European carriers particularly as the author states that the rules are different in mainland Europe.



Well it was just a 30 second google search.  I’m sure if you were really interested in specifics they wouldn’t be hard to find with a little more searching.

The reason I knew what you were saying didn’t sound right is that I have a friend who travels for a month every summer to Austria- with her dachshund in a carrier under the seat.  Pet dog flying in Europe, I was aware that wasn’t a particularly rare thing.


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## WVBaker (Nov 29, 2019)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> The problem is that there are on-line ESA certificate mills that will get you an ESA letter for about $50.  It's easier to get a phony ESA certificate than it is for a college freshman to get a fake id.
> 
> +++++
> 
> ...




The problem is, people need to understand and accept that emotional support animals do in fact provide a legitimate service.

As for the "on-line ESA certificate mills" you mentioned, do you know of any you can share with us?


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## WVBaker (Nov 29, 2019)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I’m severely allergic to most dogs and I travel a ton for work and thankfully I get to sit in comfort plus most of the time or first class. This has gotten so out of hand. I fully support service animals that are support animals.



So, can we assume that you're not allergic to the support animals you referenced?


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 29, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> The problem is, people need to understand and accept that emotional support animals do in fact provide a legitimate service.
> 
> As for the "on-line ESA certificate mills" you mentioned, do you know of any you can share with us?


Just Google Emotional Support Animal letter and follow the "sponsored" links.  You can have your letter in 24 hours after paying money.  Our teams licensed professionals are waiting on-line now to respond to you.  I'm not going to post any links, because why should I do something that will give those sites search engine pop. 

Where do you draw the line between an emotional support animal and a pet?  Really, you can draw the line anywhere you want to draw it, and if you make money giving out ESA letters, you will readily conclude that any animal that provides comfort to a person is providing emotional support.  And when you can draw a line anywhere you want, there is not such thing as a line. 

++++++

But I don't know why you seem to be contending with me.  You and I are in total agreement.  I understand and accept that emotional support animals provide a legitimate service.  I agree that people should be allowed to fly with emotional support animals.  I just don't see where ESAs are in some fundamentally different category than pets.  That is completely different from use of a service animal to provide vision or hearing assistance to a blind or deaf person.


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## WVBaker (Nov 29, 2019)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Just Google Emotional Support Animal letter and follow the "sponsored" links.  You can have your letter in 24 hours after paying money.  Our teams licensed professionals are waiting on-line now to respond to you.  I'm not going to post any links, because why should I do something that will give those sites search engine pop.
> 
> Where do you draw the line between an emotional support animal and a pet?  Really, you can draw the line anywhere you want to draw it, and if you make money giving out ESA letters, you will readily conclude that any animal that provides comfort to a person is providing emotional support.  And when you can draw a line anywhere you want, there is not such thing as a line.
> 
> ...



An ESA letter must be written by a licensed mental health professional.

The rules are very clear when it comes to this question. In order to get a valid emotional support animal letter, it needs to come from a licensed mental health professional. Licensed mental health professionals include psychiatrists, psychologists, licensed clinical social workers, psychiatric nurses, licensed professional counselors, and other licensed therapists.

This is what your ESA letter needs to have:
Mental health professional’s letterhead and signature, as well as date of issuance
Mental health professional’s license type, date of license, license number, and the state that issued the license
Confirmation that an emotional support animal is a vital part of your life
Description of how the animal will help the condition (though they do not need to perform a task specifically for your condition)
“Prescription” (although not technically a prescription, it is commonly referred to as an ESA prescription) or recommendation for an ESA
Your name and details about your pet (type, breed, name, etc.) is not required but may be included

Like we have already explained above, only a licensed mental health professional can “prescribe” or recommend a valid emotional support animal letter. Take note of the term "licensed mental health professional".

And before this even comes into play yes, there are those claiming to be licensed mental health professionals. This is the case in any profession. If you wish to, you can find some scam artist who will provide documentation for any support animal. Even those animals supported in this conversation as legitimate. Does it happen? Of course it does. I've help put people in jail for claiming to be a doctor and even having their own office and guess what, all they had were fake degrees. So yes, it does happen. Always has and always will.

Just because someone doesn't believe that there are legitimate emotional support animals doesn't mean there's not.

Also, please don't take your pet to the airport claiming that they're a "legitimate" emotional support animal. Pardon the pun but, that won't fly.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 29, 2019)

Referring to the ESA letter mills -

Note that these sites do not exist to allow people to determine if their animal qualifies as a service animal.  Nor do they advertise themselves as such.  They exist solely for the purpose of selling people ESA letters. If people don't get ESA letters, the site doesn't get paid.  This is a lowest common denominator issue.  The site that is the most lax about giving out ESA letters is the site that is going to thrive and is going to have the highest satisfaction ratings on Google, Yelp, or any other rating service you want to pick.

Bear in mind that a "licensed professional" linked through these sites is not being paid for an opinion.  They are being paid for a letter.  That's a big difference.  (FWIW - I'm a licensed professional, and in my business, making payment contingent on a favorable opinion would lead to loss of license and expulsion from some important technical associations.)

Also consider what their liability is if they fail to exercise professional care.  Do they have to pay for cleaning up the mess if the animal misbehaves? Are they on the line if the animal bites someone? Hardly! So from their standpoint, this is nothing opportunity to earn $25 for 15 minutes on the phone with someone, so I can check some boxes and give someone a letter.  If I don't give them the letter I don't get my $25.  And there's no risk for me if I give them the letter even if they don't need it?

As noted above, those sites are in the business of getting people ESA letters - not assessing clients.  If I'm a licensed professional on the referral list and I don't issue ESA letters on demand, do you think that the site is going to continue referring inquiries to me?  Do you think one of these sites is going to make referrals to a Professional who is going to turn down requests?  Of course not - they are going to send referrals to whatever professional generates the most income, and that is the professional who has minimal (if any) standards, and who spends the least time with each client (so that they can maximize the number of letters they issue).

++++

But for arguments sake, let's assume there is a legitimately provided ESA letter.  The ESA only says that the animal is an ESA.  It doesn't mean anything about whether the animal is appropriate to bring on an airplane.

Fro example, even if a canine is an ESA, it doesn't belong on a plane if it is yapping at other dogs or other people on the flight. It shouldn't be trying to barge into the aisle.  It shouldn't be trying to squirm into the lap of the person in the next seat so that it can get a look out the window. It shouldn't be begging for table scraps. 

It can do all of those things, and still be an ESA.

++++++++++

Air transportation has been occurring for well over fifty years.  As others have noted above, why has this only become an issue recently?

Again - I think there is a simple solution.  Let carriers establish policies for bringing any animal on board that is not a trained service animal.  (Please note that I am drawing a clear distinction between a trained service animal and an emotional support animal.)  If you have a need to travel with your animal, then book a seating that allows you bring your animal on the plane.


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## x3 skier (Nov 29, 2019)

30 rather interesting ESAs, not all, but some of which have flown.

https://bestlifeonline.com/emotional-support-animals/

According to the article, Turtles, Geese, Ferrets and Peacocks among others have been declared ESA by folks planning to travel by airline. I am amazed that those folks somehow got around before they discovered they needed such items to calm the stress of flying.

Cheers


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## WVBaker (Nov 29, 2019)

T.R. look at post #38. The airlines have established their own rules. Go to the site and they will show you these rules.

Either way, ESA are very real and are allowed on flights. We can continue our dance, with little being agreed to though. Once again...

_"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible."  _
Stuart Chase


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 29, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> T.R. look at post #38. The airlines have established their own rules. Go to the site and they will show you these rules.
> 
> Either way, ESA are very real and are allowed on flights. We can continue our dance, with little being agreed to though. Once again...
> 
> ...


I am familiar with the rules, and it's pretty easy to say that the rules aren't working. Lots of animals are being boarded on planes that have no business being on planes because they haven't been trained to behave.  Maybe everyone of them is an ESA - I doubt it - but for arguments sake I will concede that everyone of those animals is a legitimate ESA.    

The problem, as I have noted previously, is that if they deny boarding, someone can cry "Fowl" (pun intended) and legitimately assert a claim for unfairly being denied boarding.  Whereas there is little to no liability for making an error the other way.  Consequently we are in a situation, where effectively, the airlines have adopted a policies that allow allow almost any passenger to claim that their animal is an ESA. 

++++++++++

Let's continue to dance.  Is it your contention that passengers should be allowed to board planes with ESAs who lack training for proper behavior on planes?  If your answer is "Yes", then I think we can end the dance, with an agreement to disagree. 

But if you believe that animals who have not been trained to behave properly on airplanes should not be allowed to board, how should that be enforced? 

+++++++++++++

And I'll set aside, for the moment, the rejoinder that homo sapiens is an animal  species, and if we allow homo sapiens to board who do not know how to behave on an airplane, why should we deny boarding to other member of the animal kingdom?


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## Sugarcubesea (Nov 30, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> So, can we assume that you're not allergic to the support animals you referenced?


I'm allergic to most dogs. Since this situation with everyone bringing their dog on board as a service animal my allergies have been really bad on flights that have 4 to 6 dogs on a flight... 

I was not trying to be rude and I do fully support those folks that have true support animals, its just gotten out of hand with the folks that buy the best for their dog and say its a service animal...


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## x3 skier (Nov 30, 2019)

One Veteran is glad the Government is going to issue rules for ESA

https://thepointsguy.com/news/the-fed-is-going-to-change-emotional-support-animal-rules-and-im-glad/?tid=curated_01&utm_uniqid=*|UNIQID|*&utm_source=TPG Daily Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=906864&utm_usr=8b694cf5-e774-4d2e-a121-77bc48bf5c76&utm_msg=2863653562ed4cd0a2fe7c7338746124&utm_date=2019-11-30

Cheers


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## WVBaker (Nov 30, 2019)

x3 skier said:


> One Veteran is glad the Government is going to issue rules for ESA
> 
> https://thepointsguy.com/news/the-fed-is-going-to-change-emotional-support-animal-rules-and-im-glad/?tid=curated_01&utm_uniqid=*|UNIQID|*&utm_source=TPG Daily Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=906864&utm_usr=8b694cf5-e774-4d2e-a121-77bc48bf5c76&utm_msg=2863653562ed4cd0a2fe7c7338746124&utm_date=2019-11-30
> 
> Cheers



While grasping at straws, perhaps we need to look at a few remarks that sum up this "opinion" piece.

"The Chicago Tribune sat down with Charles Petrof, a senior attorney with Chicago disabled rights advocacy organization Access Living, who says that purposefully low barriers to entry is the point of these rules. Inclusiveness for all is the goal and according to Petrof “If you need proof beyond a basic doctor’s note, depending on what kind of health care you can afford, you may not get to see your psychiatrist more than once per year. And wait times for mental health treatment can be long. You may not be able to satisfy these requirements in time to take a flight. So what it results in is, if you’re poor and disabled, you’re kicked off the plane.”

I would say that's correct.

Even Carissa Rawson, the individual behind this "opinion" piece notes.

"I understand what he’s saying, and *in all fairness it’s reasonable*. But his solution, rather than changing the laws surrounding emotional support animals, is to lay the responsibility at the feet of airlines. “Once we start changing rules,” he says, “it seems like access for disabled people ends up getting limited. The airlines need to address the dog or animal that is causing a problem.”

Let's see. She understands Mr. Petrof's remarks and as she puts it, "... it’s reasonable".

"So when I heard that new rules for emotional support animals were announced in August, I was beyond excited."
If we follow the link she provided it brings us to...

US Department of Transportation Issues New Rules for Service, Emotional Support Animals

"As the number of emotional support animals in aircraft seem to be an ever-growing problem, airlines such as Alaska, American, Delta, Spirit, Southwest and United have tightened rules regarding ESAs. *The DOT says that it’s not taking any action against airlines that have required documentation related to vaccination, training or behavior.*"

Seems as though they have addressed this. See a previous post in this never ending debate.

"In the final policy statement, the agency specifically addressed certain topics:"

There are a few, many have been discussed already. Here are just a few.

Species Limitations
"Many airlines (Alaska, American, Southwest, United) current limit emotional support animals to dogs and cats and limit service animals to dogs, cats and miniature horses. These seemingly will need to change to avoid “categorically” refusing to transport other species."

Each airline sets it's own rules so, direct any concerns to the individual airline. They are quite free to set their own limitations and have, up to this point done so. Should be unhappy with these limitations, find another airline.

Breed/Species Restrictions:
"*Airlines aren’t allowed to ban entire breeds *— such as pit bulls — although they may refuse to carry a specific animal if it’s found to pose a threat."

Once again, express your concerns with the airline you chose.

Documentation Requirements: 
"DOT will not take action against an airline if it requires passengers to provide advance documentation of a service animal’s vaccination, training or behavior. *However, the department will step in if documentation is used to “unduly restrict passengers with disabilities from traveling with their service animals.*”

Sounds as though the Department of Transportation would like to continue as much of a hands off approach as it can. Let the airlines "police" themselves, which they do.

Containment: 
"*Airlines are allowed to set their own containment rules as long as they are reasonable.* The DOT points to “tethering and similar means of controlling an animal” as reasonable containment rules."

Well of course they are, "... allowed to set their own containment rules as long as they are reasonable." Which they do.

Advance Notice: 
"Airlines are prohibited from requiring advance notice for passengers traveling with service animals as this notice “may significantly harm passengers with disabilities” as it prevents these passengers from making last-minute travel plans necessary for work or family emergencies. "

It's very important they don't delay their disabled passengers.

Check-In Requirements: 
"Airlines aren’t allowed to force passengers with service animals to check in at the counter. However, the Enforcement Office is fine with airlines requiring passengers to check-in ESAs and PSAs at the counter. The DOT notes that regulations permit airlines to require ESA and PSA users to check in one hour before the check-in time for the general public."

Easy to understand.

Proof That an Animal Is a Service Animal: 
"Generally, airlines are allowed to “seek credible verbal assurance” that a passenger has a disability and the animal is a service animal. Further, airlines may ask the passenger questions “to determine the passenger’s need for the animal” — even if the animal has a harness, vest or tag."

Again, read the postings and you will find a description of the letter needed.

Number of Service Animals Per Passenger: 
"Recognizing that “a passenger may reasonably need more than one task-trained service animal,” the DOT isn’t setting a limit on how many service animals may travel with a passenger with a disability. Instead, the department will focus on making sure airlines allow passengers to travel with “one ESA and a total of three service animals if needed.”

I would accept one animal and believe that's fair.

Mental Health Professional Form: 
Airlines are allowed to require passengers to provide “medical documentation of their need for the animal” for emotional support animals and psychiatric support animals. *However, airlines aren’t allowed to reject a form that “meets the criteria found in the rule because of an airline’s preference that the passenger use the airline’s form.*”

Again, please look back and find the form.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/dot-new-rules-service-emotional-support-animals/

Must we continue this dance? 
Cheers


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 30, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> …
> 
> Must we continue this dance?
> Cheers


I think we can each find the partner we came with and head out the door.


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## DrQ (Nov 30, 2019)

Miniature horses are allowed on planes as emotional support animals:
https://www.azcentral.com/story/tra...can-airlines-flight-chicago-omaha/2168455001/

God help the person pulls up to my row with a horse in tow.


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## WVBaker (Nov 30, 2019)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I think we can each find the partner we came with and head out the door.


Perhaps a smart choice T_R_.


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## Tia (Nov 30, 2019)

I know a dog that wears  an emotional support vest that barks at all strangers and cowers.


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## pedro47 (Nov 30, 2019)

This is a very dumb question a miniature horse is about the size of child between 4 to 6 years old .  Would this animal occupy one or two airlines seats and would this emotional support animal be charged for an airline ticket?


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## geist1223 (Nov 30, 2019)

There are only two animals listed under the Federal System as Assistance Animals - miniature horses and dogs.


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## DrQ (Nov 30, 2019)

pedro47 said:


> This is a very dumb question a miniature horse is about the size of child between 4 to 6 years old .  Would this animal occupy one or two airlines seats and would this emotional support animal be charged for an airline ticket?


That is not a dumb question. If there is a couple traveling, there MAY be enough room in front of the pair.




How comfortable ... NOT!


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## DrQ (Nov 30, 2019)

Duplicate post


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## dioxide45 (Nov 30, 2019)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> As I've said upthread, I think the simplest thing to do is to drop the whole game of charades. Allow passengers to bring pets on board, in accordance with whatever rules are set by the airlines. The airlines will devise a scheme that will allow them to make more money, which they logically should when they provide an additional service.


The problem is that the DOT has different rules for ESA. Airlines can't restrict ESAs on flight except in certain circumstances (size, animal is a thread). These DOT rules are different than ADA laws. I agree, just get rid of the shenanigans. When airlines started charging for checked bags, people tried to find ways to avoid the fees and stuff more in to their carry on or bring larger than allowed carry ons. Same will happen with animals as long as the airlines try to make more money from it. People will always try to beat the fee just like they are doing today. So if the airlines try to make more money from such a scheme, people will just do as they are today.


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## HtownRose (Dec 1, 2019)

Security guard:  "No outside food is allowed."

Me:  "This is a service burrito."


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## CanuckTravlr (Dec 1, 2019)

HtownRose said:


> Security guard:  "No outside food is allowed."
> 
> Me:  "This is a service burrito."



Now that is not only funny, but a great idea!!!  

And that is just about how silly this abuse of the rules for legitimate service animals and ESAs has gotten.


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## pedro47 (Dec 1, 2019)

Now that airlines have stop serving meals on flights, you need to bring a meal in your carry on bag to survive l


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## JudyH (Dec 1, 2019)

Can you imagine how dangerous that cute mini horse will be if he colics on a flight. I’ve had horses for years and years and they can go from perfectly happy healthy to riddled with colic pain within minutes.


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## cowboy (Dec 2, 2019)

Bringing a horse on a plane is beyond rediculous, as is bringing dogs on planes.


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## Pompey Family (Dec 3, 2019)

cowboy said:


> Bringing a horse on a plane is beyond rediculous, as is bringing dogs on planes.



Surely you're not suggesting bringing service dogs on planes is ridiculous?


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## Tia (Dec 11, 2019)

Had a spouse bring a dog wearing a service dog vest into a restricted access area yesterday.  The person  the spouse was coming into see said 'you brought the dog in?' Person had said earlier earlier 'the baby' would have to wait in the car. Coworker had given me a heads up there was a dog wearing a vest with the spouse. My impression was this was not a REAL service animal from was said to spouse and about the baby.


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## WVBaker (Dec 11, 2019)

cowboy said:


> Bringing a horse on a plane is beyond rediculous, as is bringing dogs on planes.



https://turnto10.com/news/videos/honey-the-mini-service-horse-goes-through-a-tsa-security-check

https://www.miamiherald.com/living/food-drink/article213518679.html


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## Sandy VDH (Dec 11, 2019)

One reason a miniature horse is sometimes preferred over a dog, is the horse's lifespan. They live 25 to 35 years.  A service dog is usually trained for 1 - 2 years, and is often retired at 10+ depending on breed.  You get 8 to 10-ish years from a service dog, where as miniature horse you should get at least 20.  Obviously depends on what service that animal needs to provide.


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## Pompey Family (Dec 11, 2019)

Sandy VDH said:


> You get 8 to 10-ish years from a service dog, where as miniature horse you should get at least 20. Obviously depends on what service that animal needs to provide.



I'm not really sure what a horse, miniature or otherwise can do in comparison to a service dog. Service dogs can be trained to perform a huge variety of tasks (ignoring those that undertake detection work such as drug/explosive/cadaver but also search and rescue and police/military purposes). Service dogs can be trained to open doors and collect medicine, remove clothing particularly hard to reach items for some people such as socks, push buttons such as pedestrian crossings, lifts, doors etc, can intervene in the onset of nightmares or disassociation, can fetch and retrieve items and a whole plethora of beneficial tasks. Horses are good at pulling stuff, miniatures not so much.


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## Sandy VDH (Dec 11, 2019)

Pompey Family said:


> I'm not really sure what a horse, miniature or otherwise can do in comparison to a service dog. Horses are good at pulling stuff, miniatures not so much.



https://usserviceanimals.org/blog/miniature-horses-as-service-animals/


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## pedro47 (Dec 12, 2019)

Thanks for the link Sandy VDH.

Those miniature horses look well groomed and cared for by their owners. IMO.


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## Pompey Family (Dec 12, 2019)

Sandy VDH said:


> https://usserviceanimals.org/blog/miniature-horses-as-service-animals/



So yes, they are good at pulling stuff as I said but apart from the emotional aspect, which can be attributed to pretty much any pet, they are nowhere near as useful as a service dog, the article simply corroborates that. I work with a husky service dog and her ability to pull and steady her owner, a former soldier who suffered a stroke and has difficulty with his motor skills, is phenomenal. She instinctively knows when to brace, when to pull and when to provide some slack.

"Just like all service animals, service horses will respond to their user, pick up dropped items and medication" that is not the same as giving a dog a command to collect medication. My dog will respond to a command to collect medication (or whatever it is that is required to collect), she will go to the cupboard or location where it is kept, open the door, retrieve the item and return it to my lap. My dog has been trained to locate the exit in any building we are in no matter how unfamiliar it is, by simply giving the command "exit" she will immediately identify and lead me to the nearest exit. She is trained to press the buttons on an elevator or disabled exit button on a door or will press the lever on an emergency exit (most of this I don't require but she is trained to a specific standard). I can take my dog to a restaurant, give her the command to go under the table and she will remain there, unobtrusive, for the duration of my stay, what do you do with a miniature horse?!

Dogs are incredible creatures and their potential and abilities are very underestimated by most people. They are the perfect service animal and are without comparison and whilst I'm sure miniature horses provide much comfort to their owners they are incomparable to the abilities and usefulness of a dog. Plus, I really can't see one curling up on the sofa with me!


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## WVBaker (Dec 12, 2019)

Pompey Family said:


> So yes, they are good at pulling stuff as I said but apart from the emotional aspect, which can be attributed to pretty much any pet, they are nowhere near as useful as a service dog, the article simply corroborates that. I work with a husky service dog and her ability to pull and steady her owner, a former soldier who suffered a stroke and has difficulty with his motor skills, is phenomenal. She instinctively knows when to brace, when to pull and when to provide some slack.
> 
> "Just like all service animals, service horses will respond to their user, pick up dropped items and medication" that is not the same as giving a dog a command to collect medication. My dog will respond to a command to collect medication (or whatever it is that is required to collect), she will go to the cupboard or location where it is kept, open the door, retrieve the item and return it to my lap. My dog has been trained to locate the exit in any building we are in no matter how unfamiliar it is, by simply giving the command "exit" she will immediately identify and lead me to the nearest exit. She is trained to press the buttons on an elevator or disabled exit button on a door or will press the lever on an emergency exit (most of this I don't require but she is trained to a specific standard). I can take my dog to a restaurant, give her the command to go under the table and she will remain there, unobtrusive, for the duration of my stay, what do you do with a miniature horse?!
> 
> Dogs are incredible creatures and their potential and abilities are very underestimated by most people. They are the perfect service animal and are without comparison and whilst I'm sure miniature horses provide much comfort to their owners they are incomparable to the abilities and usefulness of a dog. Plus, I really can't see one curling up on the sofa with me!



Having owned and worked with dogs all my life yes, they can be quite astounding.

It's not my place however, to define what emotional support a miniature horse can or cannot bring someone. That's best left to those who understand that connection.

In the words of, Quintus Horatius Flaccus... "All men do not, in fine, admire or love the same thing."


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## Pompey Family (Dec 13, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> It's not my place however, to define what emotional support a miniature horse can or cannot bring someone. That's best left to those who understand that connection.



Neither is it mine which is why I never made any comparison or definition of what constitutes an emotional support animal and what it can offer to those who require the support. That is what this whole thread is about, the use of animals as emotional support animals in a role similar in nature to that of a fully trained service animal. I simply highlighted the huge difference in capabilities between dogs and miniature horses when used as service animals NOT emotional support animals. Dogs are evidently far more capable and useful than a horse when it comes to performing supportive tasks.


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## MULTIZ321 (Dec 14, 2019)

Man Removed From Flight, Stuck in Austin For Four Days, Due To Unusual Pet.


https://viewfromthewing.com/man-rem...k-in-austin-for-four-days-due-to-unusual-pet/


Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Jan 22, 2020)

Emotional support animals could be banned from planes under DOT rule.










						Emotional support animals could be banned from planes under DOT rule
					

Proposed rule would let airlines ban most "emotional support" animals in airplane cabins and board only trained service dogs.



					www.rollcall.com
				



.


Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Jan 22, 2020)

Feds Want to Rein in 'Emotiona] Service' Animals on Planes.










						Feds Want to Rein In 'Emotional Service' Animals on Planes
					

The viral photos of mini-horses in cabin seats may be numbered, as the Transportation Department announces an effort to ground "Noah's Ark in the air."




					www.wired.com
				





Richard


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