# New User With Questions



## chriswanamaker (Jun 6, 2012)

Hello All!

Back in 2010, I bought two "week" timeshares in Hilton Head - Week #48 and #52 (with the option of #53 every few years). Since the purchase, I've banked my weeks and used them to travel to all kinds of great places.

On a recent exchange to the Grandview At Las Vegas, I decided to sit through a "presentation". During my discussions with the sales guy, he learned of my units in Hilton Head and showed me that they could be worth 106,000 to 120,000 total point annually which I could then use for exchanges and other great things - plane tickets, cruises, rental cars, ect.

Instead of going for the expensive option, they looked at a very basic every other year unit at the Grandview just to get me into the points system where I could then get my current "weeks" converted into "points".

When I looked at the deal, it didn't make sense to me - $9990 for a biannual unit, 24,500 point every year and an extra "certificate" exchange that I could use yearly.

Since I am not too familiar with the points system and the current pricing on those types of units, I am turning to this forum for a little guidance. I certainly see the value of the points system - but would like to know what some of the pitfalls are and what kind of "points" unit I should be looking for so I can easily covert my weeks into points.

Any help would be awesome!

Thanks!
Chris


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## Passepartout (Jun 6, 2012)

Welcome to TUG!

We trust you didn't buy *anything*. If you did, rescind immediately. Look at resale values like on eBay. TSs are worth basically nothing.

Now, that out of the way, there are lots of different point systems, and there is no correlation one with another. Hilton has one, RCI has two, Wyndham has one, yada, yada, yada. It's no wonder the Grandview sales weasel couldn't make it make sense to you. They have about given up on selling 'weeks' like what you have, and are concentrating on selling their association with RCI Points. That biennial unit with the 24,000 RCI points is worth nothing. 12,000 points a year won't get you into a studio in a middling quality TS. You can see annual Grandviews on eBay with 90,000 points for $1.

In my opinion, keep what you have. It's understandable, it seems to exchange well, occasionally you get that bonus week 53. Unless you find that you want to travel to more timeshares, keep doing what you are doing. If you want/need? more, buy resale. Or just rent. If you are an RCI member, for instance, those 1 bedroom Grandview Las Vegas units are very commonly available for $260 a week on last calls. $199 on sale for 7 nights. Why own and subject yourself to ever increasing Maintenance Fees that are higher?

Stick around study what interests you and add to the basic timeshare knowledge that you have.

Glad you are here.

Jim Ricks


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## ampaholic (Jun 6, 2012)

Simple and effective words to live by:

How can you tell if a timeshare salesperson is lying? His/Her lips are moving.


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## chriswanamaker (Jun 6, 2012)

No worries there - I didn't buy anything, even when they sent me to the "closer" who offered me a unit in the middle-of-no-where TN for half the price, more points and a higher maintenance fee.

With regards to the unit at the Grandview - it was 49,000 points per usable year (every other) - but since they were requiring me to pay 1/2 the maintenance cost every year, I split the points as well just to get a better idea of what they were trying to present.

I like the idea of the RCI points program because I can use the point towards cruises and airfare. Are there cheap points based units out there that make sense to purchase just so I can get into the RCI points program?


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## chriswanamaker (Jun 6, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> Simple and effective words to live by:
> 
> How can you tell if a timeshare salesperson is lying? His/Her lips are moving.



Very true. To the guy's credit, once I told him it didn't make sense to me - he agreed and suggested that I look for a low cost points unit just so I can unlock the potential of my Hilton Head units.


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## aliikai2 (Jun 6, 2012)

chriswanamaker said:


> No worries there - I didn't buy anything, even when they sent me to the "closer" who offered me a unit in the middle-of-no-where TN for half the price, more points and a higher maintenance fee.
> 
> With regards to the unit at the Grandview - it was 49,000 points per usable year (every other) - but since they were requiring me to pay 1/2 the maintenance cost every year, I split the points as well just to get a better idea of what they were trying to present.
> 
> I like the idea of the RCI points program because I can use the point towards cruises and airfare. Are there cheap points based units out there that make sense to purchase just so I can get into the RCI points program?


The sales weasels make it sound great using points for points partners, in fact that is a waste of points unless you are going to lose them. They only allow you to use 25% of your points towards overpriced air/car, etc and then they add so high fees to that. It simply isn't worth doing, so disregard this and any other sales weasel speak asap. Greg


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## Karen G (Jun 6, 2012)

chriswanamaker said:


> I like the idea of the RCI points program because I can use the point towards cruises and airfare. Are there cheap points based units out there that make sense to purchase just so I can get into the RCI points program?


Usually the cruises and airfare can be obtained cheaper going through the various cruise companies and airlines. What the salesman is describing to you is the RCI Points for Deposit program through RCI points. 

If you own a weeks-based timeshare that does not have any timeshare weeks ownerships that have been converted to points, then you could deposit those into the PFD program for a fee that continues to go up as do all RCI fees.

For a time I owned a points-based unit at Rayburn Country in Texas to be able to be part of the RCI points system. It was a well-managed older resort with a reasonable maintenance fee. At the same time I owned four South Africa resorts that I was able to put into the PFD program, and for awhile it all worked out great and we got some good exchanges.  But, since RCI fees were going up and our travel situation changed, I got rid of all those units and no longer belong to RCI.


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## Passepartout (Jun 6, 2012)

chriswanamaker said:


> I like the idea of the RCI points program because I can use the point towards cruises and airfare. Are there cheap points based units out there that make sense to purchase just so I can get into the RCI points program?



Yes. Resales are all over the place that are already 'converted' to RCI Points. Beware, however that while you CAN exchange those points towards air and cruises, it's no bargain. Generally speaking you end up paying virtually the same price for the flight or cruise as you would through a discounter, AND the MF for the points based TS. Occasionally, because you can use the 'discount' on multiple seats/cabins, you can get ahead, but almost never for 2 airline seats or 1 cruise cabin.

Anyway, look for resales on eBay. Just enter RCI Points in the search window, or the TUG Bargain Deals (under the Buying, Selling, Renting forum) or in the TUG Marketplace (in the red stripe above)

The 'magic number' you want to see is $.01/point/year. In other words a penny a point a year for MF. It isn't too difficult to achieve. I've seen as low as $.0072 recently. Don't fall for MF of $.013 or higher unless it's at a resort that you really want to use as a 'week' and not the points.

Jim


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## chriskre (Jun 7, 2012)

I own a triennial at Grandview and get 14K points per year for a very reasonable MF of $115.  With that unit I can "points for deposit" other units that I already own in resorts that are not already selling RCI points and RCI gives me RCI points for it which I can then use for access to RCI points inventory.

I agree with the others here that using RCI points for cruises, rental cars etc is a poor return on your investment and actually costs more than just booking thru a cruise broker like vacationstogo.com or Expedia.  

I like RCI points and know I'm in the minority here but I find that the inventory at many places that I want to go is more plentiful in the bigger units in RCI points.   There are also some great bargains in RCI points like the Manhattan Club and Disney.


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## ampaholic (Jun 7, 2012)

To me the three important things to consider with RCI Points are:

1. your home resort and home group matters - because - you get a 303 day booking window at all points resorts (good), but you get 304-334 days out at your home group (better) and you get 335-365 days out at your home resort (best).
For example we have Meadow Lake for a home resort where we like to go often, so I can book late June 2013 now long before any non owners can. I can also often get a weekend there at the last minute.
I also have VV@P as a home resort (I have 5 home resorts) so I am grouped with all the Dailymanagement group and can get reservations 304-334 days out - before any other RCI Points members can (except the home resort owners).

2. Don't get too many points - I have 189K points every year and would actually like to have fewer (maybe 140K) - such is life.
Go here: http://www.rci.com/GPN/CDA/Common/pd...idsUpdate1.pdf
to see how many points you'll need to do what you want to do. You can always rent more points to fill out a vacation - but having extra can be an issue to use before they expire (but not as bad as a week you can't use IMO).

3. When you buy don't overpay: A real smokin' solid deal is less than a penny per point in MF's costs along with closing under $300 and this years points thrown in for for free. A resonable deal would be points @ a penny to 1.5 cents each in MF's along with $500 in closing and no free points IF it's at a resort you want for a home resort.

3a. A red week gives you more points per MF (generally) than a white or blue week.


-----

Oh, and when you book into your home resort within the owners ARP you will only need to pay between zero and $40 bucks for a reservation!


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## jbiza (Jun 7, 2012)

Using RCI Points can be very effective if you have a flexible schedule & can travel on short notice because of the Instant Exchanges for 7500-9000 points.

Also, you can use RCI Points for individual nights when you may not need to stay an entire week, for quick getaways.


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## chriswanamaker (Jun 7, 2012)

To everyone that has replied - thank you. The information has been very helpful!

I guess the biggest draw to the RCI points program for me is the fact that I can use the points for items like short stays and airfare - especially since I travel for my business often.

Knowing that these timeshares are near worthless, why do they still try and sell ones (like a 1 BR at the Grandview) for $12K-15K? Are they just counting on stupid people or is there some sort of market for these - but only in specific areas?

@Ampaholic - Do you happen to have that document? When I tried the link, it didn't work.

@ChrisKRE - If you don't mind me asking, how much was the unit itself? Feel free to email/PM me if you don't want to post publicly.

@Passepartout - Just to make sure I understand what you mean, a 40,000/point/year unit would be $400 in maintenance fees each year? What about the purchase price of the unit?

Thanks again everyone!


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## Karen G (Jun 7, 2012)

chriswanamaker said:


> Knowing that these timeshares are near worthless, why do they still try and sell ones (like a 1 BR at the Grandview) for $12K-15K? Are they just counting on stupid people or is there some sort of market for these - but only in specific areas?


The market for developer sales is uninformed buyers who aren't aware of resales and cheap rentals. You are among the fortunate few who found TUG in time.


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## chriswanamaker (Jun 7, 2012)

TUG has been really helpful - and it all started with a Google search for "1 Bedroom Lockout" during my research


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## Passepartout (Jun 7, 2012)

chriswanamaker said:


> @Passepartout - Just to make sure I understand what you mean, a 40,000/point/year unit would be $400 in maintenance fees each year? What about the purchase price of the unit?
> 
> Thanks again everyone!



Well, the buy in is pretty much immaterial. Here's one, for instance that is just a skosh over the penny a point mark, but you'll get the idea. The buy-in is $1 and there are so far no bids. http://www.ebay.com/itm/75-500-RCI-...50827520294?pt=Timeshares&hash=item231e055126

Jim


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## chriswanamaker (Jun 7, 2012)

Passepartout said:


> Well, the buy in is pretty much immaterial. Here's one, for instance that is just a skosh over the penny a point mark, but you'll get the idea. The buy-in is $1 and there are so far no bids. http://www.ebay.com/itm/75-500-RCI-...50827520294?pt=Timeshares&hash=item231e055126
> 
> Jim



Ok - Maybe you can help me better understand this then. If this EBay auction is in the "magic area" and the buy-in is just $1 - why would has no one jumped on this? Am I missing something?


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## theo (Jun 7, 2012)

*The "buy-in" is actually to a long term committment...*



chriswanamaker said:


> Ok - Maybe you can help me better understand this then. If this EBay auction is in the "magic area" and the buy-in is just $1 - why would has no one jumped on this? Am I missing something?



"Purchase price" is a one time thing. Maintenance fees, on the other hand, are annual and forever. 

In this economy, annual maintenance fees simply have many people saying "no mas" to the luxury of timeshare ownership. This is, in large part, why you can find dozens of *free* timeshares in the Bargain Deals section of TUG on any day of any week.


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## chriswanamaker (Jun 7, 2012)

Is there a way to tell if a unit's maintenance fees are going to keep going up or if they are going to pretty much remain the same?


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## Passepartout (Jun 7, 2012)

In the example I brought from eBay, the MF is $805/a year, then there is the $90/yr. RCI membership, then there is $189 EACH exchange fees to use (book) a week., so for those 75,000 points to be used (for me, that's 2-3 weeks vacations) the out of pocket cost is about $1300- $1500 not counting transportation and time-off work. Granted, those should be pretty nice vaca's, but hardly inexpensive. And remember, except for the exchange fees and transportation, those costs go on. And on. And on.That's why people are willing- even anxious to give 'em away for free.

Jim

Oh, we were typing at the same time. Most MF's will go up around 5%/yr, and are due about the same time as your holiday credit card bills.


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## Karen G (Jun 7, 2012)

chriswanamaker said:


> Is there a way to tell if a unit's maintenance fees are going to keep going up or if they are going to pretty much remain the same?


You can pretty much count on maintenance fees going up because the costs to maintain the unit--like electricity, wear & tear on the furniture, labor, water, cable tv, appliances, etc.--go up like they do on everything else.


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## theo (Jun 7, 2012)

*A safe bet...*



chriswanamaker said:


> Is there a way to tell if a unit's maintenance fees are going to keep going up or if they are going to pretty much remain the same?



It's a safe bet that maintenance fees, virtually anyhwhere and everywhere, will *always* go up --- just like the cost of most everything else in life. The "unknown" is by how much, something which is determined by many factors including (but not limited to) the competence of the facility management, the age of the facility and its' infrastructure, the adequacy of the financial reserves on hand, etc.


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## chriswanamaker (Jun 7, 2012)

I agree. I just wasn't sure if there was a way to tell if some would go up slower (a more established location) or faster (a location still under construction like the Grandview).

For the units that I currently have, I've always written off the maintenance fees under my business since I use the timeshares for business travel. While that situation certainly helps me ... I can understand why some may be shying away from adding more units to their portfolio in tough times.

Has anyone had any experience renting theirs as a way to generate income (or at least cover MF)? Using that unit in FL as an example, if I could rent it out for the cost of the MF, I could still bank the points and travel someplace else for only $189 (exchange fee). What are the thoughts on that type of philosophy?


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## Passepartout (Jun 7, 2012)

No guarantee you can cover MF with rent. Some do, some don't. High rent areas/ high demand weeks (Jan. Maui or Daytona Spring Break or New Orleans Mardi Gras come to mind) will make a premium. But for instance Grandview Las Vegas is on RCI Last Calls perennially for $260 for a week. The individual owner will be extremely lucky to make his MF nut on rent. 

Another difficulty with your idea is that if you rent (or use) the unit (week), you don't get the points. It's an either/or situation. 

Ron Parise seems to regularly make enough to at least support his habit on Wyndham TSs, but I think that (a) he works at it and (b) he knows his product well. 

Jim


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## jbiza (Jun 7, 2012)

chriswanamaker said:


> ... I can understand why some may be shying away from adding more units to their portfolio in tough times.



Also, the built in cost of transportation particularly airfare to destinations is very important to consider in your financial calculations as well, especially when you may be traveling with several family members/kids etc. 

You have to be able to GET TO the T/S that you exchange into if it's not within a reasonable driving distance.  For example, Hawaii sounds good to exchange into but it's not just around the corner from the east coast to get to...


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## chriswanamaker (Jun 10, 2012)

Thanks again to everyone for all of your help. I've used the information and have been researching all of my questions to get a better understanding of the market.

Besides EBay and this Forum, is there another reputable place to look for people selling their timeshares?


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## Passepartout (Jun 10, 2012)

If I were looking for a specific TS, I'd rent there. And while I was there, I'd ask the manager if they had a list of owners who'd like to sell their week. Many do. Also check CraigsList for the area where you are interested in buying. Redweek has sales, but costs $15 to join. I haven't looked, but Timeshare forum, www.ts4ms.com I think has classifieds too.

But right now, I'd urge you to rent while keeping an eye out for just what you want. Patience, Grasshopper!

Jim


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## chriswanamaker (Jun 10, 2012)

Right now, I am looking to see what I can find a the Grandview. I've stayed there a few times and enjoy it - so I would't mind owning there. If purchasing something on the resale market for that location looks like a long shot, then I would be open to looking elsewhere - but agree with the fact of renting there first. There's nothing worse than buying a timeshare in a place you've never been to and finding out it's crap once you get there!


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## pacodemountainside (Jun 10, 2012)

chriswanamaker said:


> Thanks again to everyone for all of your help. I've used the information and have been researching all of my questions to get a better understanding of the market.
> 
> Besides EBay and this Forum, is there another reputable place to look for people selling their timeshares?




Yes, many!  If looking for Wyndham  go to Wyndham Forum. Red Week is highly rated. Plug time  share resales in your  browser or say "resort name or developer name" and time shares.

Generally you will find ebay and here lowest as sellers have recognized their  TSs have little if any value. Most of the other sites have dreamers although many say make an offer.

I would be extra careful using craigslist. Lots of deals made there, but about half the responses I get to rental ads are scammers. Big article in Denver Post today about  several people here getting  scammed by  people selling cars and having money wired to them and disappearing.

In any case insist on  large reputable title company to hold the money. Red Week has  a preferred provider. There have been posts here for  discount  no frills companies. Would have  to do search to find or others will chime in.


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## theo (Jun 10, 2012)

*Other resale sites...*



chriswanamaker said:


> <snip> Besides EBay and this Forum, is there another reputable place to look for people selling their timeshares?



Two other sites where you can find advertised resales are RedWeek.com and MyResortNetwork.com. In both instances, you can search by geographic area and / or by specific resort name to find available listings.


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## JudyS (Jun 11, 2012)

I like RCI Points, and own several RCI Points timeshares, but the best use of RCI Points is to book stays at timeshares, not for RCI Points Partners (which is RCI's program for things such as airfare and car rentals.) 

As Chriskre said, there are some timeshares that are a much better deal through RCI Points than through RCI Weeks. 



chriswanamaker said:


> ...
> I guess the biggest draw to the RCI points program for me is the fact that I can use the points for items like short stays and airfare - especially since I travel for my business often.



The problem is that RCI only lets you use 1/3rd of your points towards RCI Points Partners.  I'll bet the timeshare salesman didn't tell you that part! (You can use a little more if you belong to RCI Platinum, but that costs an extra annual fee.)

Plus, RCI Points Partners has high fees every time you book airfare or a car rental, etc. Plus, RCI Points Partners' web interface is buggy as h*ll and RCI charges extra if you book your airfare (or whatever) over the phone, even if it's their fault that you can't book online. 

Plus, RCI can and will further restrict RCI Points Partners whenever they feel like it. 

Currently, RCI Points Partners gives 0.9 cents per point toward airfare, car rentals, etc., but there is also the cost of their fees. So, if you want an airline ticket costing $360, you will have to give RCI Points 40,000 of your points, plus their booking fee.

RCI Points Partners is an OK use of RCI Points that would otherwise expire, but you aren't going to break even booking something through RCI Points Partners unless your MF (annual maintenance fee) per RCI Point is 0.8 cents or less. Very few timeshares have MFs that low per point.



chriswanamaker said:


> ...Knowing that these timeshares are near worthless, why do they still try and sell ones (like a 1 BR at the Grandview) for $12K-15K? Are they just counting on stupid people...


Well, "stupid" is a strong word. But the timeshare developers are counting on uninformed people, at least.


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## chriswanamaker (Jun 11, 2012)

JudyS said:


> The problem is that RCI only lets you use 1/3rd of your points towards RCI Points Partners.  I'll bet the timeshare salesman didn't tell you that part! (You can use a little more if you belong to RCI Platinum, but that costs an extra annual fee.)



Yeah ... that part was left out during our conversation. If that's the case, then I would need a lot of points in order to do what I originally wanted to do with the points. Looks like my credit card points are much more valuable!


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## chriskre (Jun 11, 2012)

chriswanamaker said:


> @ChrisKRE - If you don't mind me asking, how much was the unit itself? Feel free to email/PM me if you don't want to post publicly.



I don't mind sharing.  I bought it from Sumday vacations on their website.
He sells on ebay too but I didn't want to have to bid and wait so I bought it from him for $199 all costs included.   Maybe I could have gotten it on ebay for $1, not sure but I felt the $199 was worth knowing it was a sure thing.
It was stripped when I bought it but I bought it for a second RCI points account that wasn't blocked into Disney.   



chriswanamaker said:


> Besides EBay and this Forum, is there another reputable place to look for people selling their timeshares?



Sumday vacations had some nice units at good prices.  



chriswanamaker said:


> Looks like my credit card points are much more valuable!



Yes those credit card churns go along way.  I'm not a pro yet but have been hanging out on Flytertalk and that's the place to learn how to max those FF and hotel points.  I haven't paid airfare for the last 2 years since I got the AA credit cards and I've got 2 more tickets coming to me again this year.   

I've also rarely paid a hotel room with all the Marriott rewards and Amex Worldpoints.  I don't have status with anyone yet but with all the daily charging that I do it's enough to get me any hotel nights I need in cities that don't have timeshares.  Is this a great country, or what?


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## chriswanamaker (Jun 12, 2012)

Thanks for the info ... I'll have to check out those websites a little!


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