# DVC thoughts - Riviera, BLT, elsewhere, nowhere???



## ljmiii (Aug 19, 2020)

Over the past two years I sold all but 30 of our BCV points anticipating that I would buy at Riviera for our EPCOT/HS needs.  Jan 2042 was coming like a freight train...and then the resale restrictions were announced.  Now I'm looking at my calendar anticipating at least one long visit but more likely three-ish shorter visits to WDW for its 50th anniversary. Meanwhile, I clicked through the 'Buy more DVC' links and found that until 9/16/20 I could buy 200 Riviera points at ~$164/pt (in two 100 point contracts) or 300 points at ~$159/pt (in two 150 pt contracts). And so I face a number of choices...

1) Use my BLT points for MK and AK and rent points at BCV or BWV for more time at EPCOT/HS as needed. $20-ish per point is annoying...but doable.

2) Buy more BLT and uber/lyft/drive my way around the parks. BLT is our favorite resort for many, many reasons - walk to MK, 2060 expiration, low dues, great views, 'extra' bathroom, big kitchen easily capable of storing all our food/drinks and seating 7 for breakfast, great restaurants at the Contemporary and at the other monorail resorts. Plus we can stretch our points by booking standard view if necessary.

3) Buy at Riviera despite the restrictions. The upside is that the Disney Skyliner turned out to be a swift and fun means of transportation. I do worry about trying to get *to* the parks in the morning rush and even more about weather related closures. The downsides are numerous - sky high dues, very high point requirements for 2/3rds of the rooms (which doesn't even guarantee you a 'good' view like BLT's TPV), few dining options onsite, tiny kitchen for a 2BR, the missing bathroom, and of course the resale restrictions. Plus that nagging feeling that I'm better off paying cash to stay at the Caribbean or a family suite at AoA if I'm going to stay on the Skyliner.

4) Buy at AKV. The themeing is amazing, the animals are fun, Kidani has the 'extra' bathroom when we need, we love the restaurants (though the choices are limited), the pools are nice, 2057 isn't a bad expiration, and the initial price is better than BLT. But it is a drive everywhere.

5) A variation on (1). Rent points for now and 'hold my powder' in hopes that one of the two scuttlebutt DVC locations I would actually want to buy at - the front of EPCOT or Yacht Club Villas - ever becomes a reality.

I'm unwilling to buy at any 2042 resort. We're uninterested in OKW extended because of the lack of a sofa in the studios (plus the elevator situation) and we would much rather stay at AKV than SSR. I own MVCI and we have enjoyed our stays at the Royal and Imperial Palms...except for the whole fastpass/ADR thing. But now that the kids are old enough to stay in the parks by themselves (and/or with friends) staying 'off-property' isn't going to happen for the next few years.

Obviously not expecting answers so much as thoughts.


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## AnnieBets (Aug 19, 2020)

Primary consideration should be to buy where you want to stay. That sounds like BLT to me.  Some people on DISBoards expect resale prices to drop due to economy but DVC just started back using ROFR so I don’t have a clue what will happen.


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## Dean (Aug 19, 2020)

ljmiii said:


> Over the past two years I sold all but 30 of our BCV points anticipating that I would buy at Riviera for our EPCOT/HS needs.  Jan 2042 was coming like a freight train...and then the resale restrictions were announced.  Now I'm looking at my calendar anticipating at least one long visit but more likely three-ish shorter visits to WDW for its 50th anniversary. Meanwhile, I clicked through the 'Buy more DVC' links and found that until 9/16/20 I could buy 200 Riviera points at ~$164/pt (in two 100 point contracts) or 300 points at ~$159/pt (in two 150 pt contracts). And so I face a number of choices...
> 
> 1) Use my BLT points for MK and AK and rent points at BCV or BWV for more time at EPCOT/HS as needed. $20-ish per point is annoying...but doable.
> 
> ...


Obviously lots of variables.  Weren't the restrictions known early on, were you not aware they were at least rumored?  As a retail buyer the restrictions wouldn't bother me partly because many buyers aren't likely to worry about it much and partly because I wouldn't buy to sell later.  If Riviera is where you want to be most trips, it's reasonable to buy there probably now more than at any other time.  Personally I think prices will ease down over the next couple of years but probably not enough to wait a year or 2 and lose that usage.  ROFR will be up and down, that people are even talking about it is exactly what DVD wants.  I wouldn't wait hoping for something that hasn't had a good rumor mill like Yacht club.  What unit type are you looking at, if it's 1BR then you should have lots of viable options but if it's studios then I'd probably make different choices with 2 BR somewhere in between.


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## elaine (Aug 19, 2020)

Are you buying direct? If not, Resale pricing on AKV is sorta (irrationally) high right now. IMHO the Riviera pricing is pretty good. I had no idea it was that low. BLT is a safe, solid bet. If that's where you prefer to stay, I'd probably just buy there, resale.  I did these machinations myself. We bought AKV over SSR for best value for a place we liked to stay.


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## mj2vacation (Aug 19, 2020)

I was a skeptic of the skyliner when it was announced.  Having stayed at riviera and using it, it is awesome.


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## got4boys (Aug 19, 2020)

Buy BLT on the resale market. You still can use the points in the original resorts, other than Riviera. Location. Location. Location. Walking distance to Magic Kingdom. Magic Kingdom is the most visited theme park in the world. Cost of points for the stay is rather inexpensively if you get a standard view, and the price will keep going up. I was one of the lucky ones that bought my points during the last recession for $97 a point. I wish now I bought more, but it was all I could afford at the time.

Prices are good right now on them. Been seeing them on the resale market for about $140. 2021/2022 is the year (once the pandemic goes away) will be the 50th anniversary of Magic Kingdom. Disney may stretch out the celebration. Lots of media, lots of exposure. There will be lots of pandemic newborns in 2021. Two years later, there will be lots of Disney trips...(before the child turns 3 - because he or she gets in free) - 2024 will be a busy year at Walt Disney World.

Yes, Riviera is very nice, it is new, but the resale restrictions is a downfall. You will eventually sell it and it will eventually look old and tired. Yes, it is on the gondola system and it is great when the weather is perfect...but when there is a chance of lightening - it gets shut down - it is a ride.  Don't get me wrong, I was tempted (I stayed there in July 2020).


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## littlestar (Aug 20, 2020)

Buy BLT resale if you buy.  Riviera has the resale restrictions and high point charts.


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## ljmiii (Aug 20, 2020)

Dean said:


> Weren't the restrictions known early on, were you not aware they were at least rumored?...


Initially, no. Then scuttlebutt on disboards centered around the idea that Riviera would be the first of the DVC2 resorts - owners of DVC would be shut out of the DVC2 resorts and conversely DVC2 wouldn't be able to trade into the DVC resorts. 

Then when DVC filed Riviera's POS docs with with state of Florida the reaction was a twofold surprise. One, that they would try to allow Riviera owners to book into the existing DVC resorts but not the reverse (which isn't allowed by the Buena Vista Trading Company (BVTC) docs in the POSs). And two, that they would fail to do so in their initial attempt - the first version of Riviera's POS filed with the state said, "Purchasers who purchase an Ownership Interest at any DVC Resort, other than Riviera Resort, from a Club Member who owned the Ownership Interest prior to January 19, 2019, are excluded from the prohibition set forth in this Paragraph 2." Which was not what DVD wanted at all.


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## ljmiii (Aug 20, 2020)

Dean said:


> Obviously, lots of variables...


Thank you very much for your thoughts...particularly about Riviera and Yacht Club Villas.


Dean said:


> What unit type are you looking at, if it's 1BR then you should have lots of viable options but if it's studios then I'd probably make different choices with 2 BR somewhere in between.


I should have said. For the 50th anniversary we would almost certainly be looking for 2BRs. For some intermediate timeframe 1BRs while we would be taking one kid + guest. Then studios if/when it is just my wife and I.


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## ljmiii (Aug 20, 2020)

elaine said:


> Are you buying direct?...IMHO the Riviera pricing is pretty good. I had no idea it was that low....BLT is a safe, solid bet. ...I did these machinations myself. We bought AKV over SSR


I have enough grandfathered points at BLT to keep me a 'blue card' member until 2060 so that isn't an issue.  And the attractive pricing for buying direct at Riviera (and deadline for doing so) is what is bringing the decision off the back burner. Both BLT and AKV resale are indeed good choices. BLT we know, AKV (Jambo) we've stayed in once.


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## Dean (Aug 20, 2020)

ljmiii said:


> Thank you very much for your thoughts...particularly about Riviera and Yacht Club Villas.
> I should have said. For the 50th anniversary we would almost certainly be looking for 2BRs. For some intermediate timeframe 1BRs while we would be taking one kid + guest. Then studios if/when it is just my wife and I.


I'm still sure the info was available to me from a rumor standpoint very early on for Riviera, certainly early enough that I would have know about it with enough time to plan to purchase and sell off other contracts but it may have been through some of my other sources rather than DIS.  

I wouldn't buy for a one time trip as the main issue.  Were I in this situation (and I was to some degree for 1999 because of the free passes), I'd plan on the minimum that would get me there with banking and borrowing even if I had to skip a year ahead and/or after to have enough.  Normally I'm not a big fan to the banking/borrowing plan but for a one time trip, it's likely best.  2 BR are easier than studios, I wouldn't tie myself to a specific resort just for the one time trip though I would want an 11 month reservation option.  Good luck, let us know what you decide.


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## bnoble (Aug 20, 2020)

Dean said:


> I wouldn't buy for a one time trip as the main issue.


I think this is especially true for trips in the next 1-2 years. I expect there to be significant downward pressure in the DVC rental market and an increase in discounts when booking directly with Disney during that time.

It's also worth recognizing that you are only thinking about this because of the short-fuse incentive. That's the point of short-fuse incentives, to move people to act that otherwise wouldn't if given the time to think about it.


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## ljmiii (Aug 21, 2020)

So, I ran some more numbers this morning. My focus was on the most prevalent 2BR villa view during summer...but the numbers don't change much if I look at other seasons or rooms (ignoring unicorns I'm unlikely to choose like AKV's Kilimanjaro Club Concierge rooms or Riviera's Tower Rooms). I also included the distribution of 2BR villas by room and view type.

Riviera Resort - ~$160/pt & $8.31/pt dues - 2070 exp - LO 58 /90 Ded 28/62 (SV/PV) - 494pts = $4,105.14/wk
Bay Lake Tower - ~$140/pt & $6.58/pt dues - 2060 exp - LO 24/105/18 Ded 11/77/32 (SV/LV/TPV) - 379 pts = $2,493.82/wk
Animal Kingdom - ~$110/pt & $7.67/pt dues - 2057 exp - LO - 10/34/33/5  Ded - 0 (VA/SV/SaV/KCC) - 354pts = $2,715.18/wk
.....................................................................................................Kidani  - LO -  0/64/105/0  Ded - 0/37/102/0

Or I can rent from David at $20/pt (or $??/pt from 'owner' groups/forums)
Boardwalk - 313pts @$20 = $6,260.00
Beach Club - 343pts @$20 = $6,860.00

Obviously, there are no guarantees about what the future will look like for price, dues, rentals, etc. If current trends hold expiration dates won't matter for BLT/AKV/DRR until around 2035 at the earliest...but you never know. And there is no guarantee for availability for the dates I want in any case.

So basically I reaffirmed that Riviera is a 'No'...even ignoring the effects of the resale restrictions. I'm better off renting at one of the two DVC resorts that actually *are* within walking distance of EPCOT and HS (and in which I would prefer to stay anyway). And I'm back to deciding how many DVC points do I actually want to *own* for the next 15 years.

Thank you all for your thoughts.


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## Dean (Aug 21, 2020)

Good luck, certainly places like Riviera and VGF are going to be more expensive no matter how you cut it.  The unique part about BLT is that the dues are likely to be the best overall long term.  It's also interesting to compare BCV vs BWV resale and to see how large the difference is there.


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## TimeshareTraveller (Oct 4, 2020)

There is another possibility with Riviera. You could set up a cheap LLC and purchase Riviera within the LLC. Then when time came to resell it, you just change the ownership in the LLC to the new Riviera owner --the owner never changes from Disney's perspective because the owner is the LLC. This isn't what the typical timeshare purchaser that comes in off the street will do, but it creates a Riviera that has the resale potential of trading into all of the resorts. The downside is that you will want to have a very cheap LLC state to run that single Riviera out of. Call it a real estate rental LLC, and depreciate the cost of the Riviera purchase. Rent it to your kids or to another party once.

It's a total Pain in the Behind to do, but it solves the resale issue. And makes the resale of that Riviera very attractive.

(I should caution that I am not a lawyer and do not play one on TV. It might be worth talking to one beforehand. But all of my rental properties are safeguarded in LLCs for legal protection reasons. No reason you can't do this with this property.)


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## Lisa P (Oct 11, 2020)

Interesting idea. Will DVD sell DVC points to a rental business LLC?


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## TimeshareTraveller (Oct 13, 2020)

You would need to ask them, but this is not a resale to an LLC that will do a Viking Ship. As long as they had someone willing to sign for the loan (if you need a loan), then putting the deed into an LLC is just the titling. 

One of the other benefits is that the resort when sold to a new owner would not go through ROFR because the owner isn't changing. All you do is swap out owners of the LLC and possibly change the address of the LLC home office.


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## chromeo (Oct 14, 2020)

I think the question is how long you are going to hold.

In the short run, I don't see the point in buying at all.  Disney is going to have way too much hotel capacity for a long time, and I see incentives continuing.  DVC does not make sense against a $300 room at CB, which is really nice, by the way.  And points are ridiculously cheap to rent right now, which is the obvious solution short term.

I think BLT is way undervalued right now, for holding longer term and selling like you did your 2042.  It has a great chart.

If you plan to hold forever, and pass it to your kids, I think Riviera is a good option, but you better LOVE Riviera, or you better be willing to put in the work and risk to rent it out forever.  That doesn't seem to be true for most.

If DVC Yacht Club becomes reality, which I think it will, it will not be for many years.  I would guess whatever they build in the place of Reflections is next, so that's like 10 years until that happens.  Maybe not a terrible plan?


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 14, 2020)

chromeo said:


> I think the question is how long you are going to hold.
> 
> In the short run, I don't see the point in buying at all.  Disney is going to have way too much hotel capacity for a long time, and I see incentives continuing.  DVC does not make sense against a $300 room at CB, which is really nice, by the way.  And points are ridiculously cheap to rent right now, which is the obvious solution short term.
> 
> ...



I always thought that too about Yacht/Beach club. If you look at google maps, its really easy for them to just simply push back the parking area and expand both sections.


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## chromeo (Oct 14, 2020)

Right now, there is no money, and DVC is trying to sell 1/2 of Aulani and 3/4 of Riviera.

After that would be whatever goes in Reflections's space, which may or may not be Reflections.

That's already really far out, so who knows what happens then.  It depends on how the projects are Epcot are going, which is currently not great, but I do think the next step would be an Epcot area resort.


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## DazedandConfused (Oct 17, 2020)

chromeo said:


> Right now, there is no money, and DVC is trying to sell 1/2 of Aulani and 3/4 of Riviera.
> 
> After that would be whatever goes in Reflections's space, which may or may not be Reflections.
> 
> That's already really far out, so who knows what happens then.  It depends on how the projects are Epcot are going, which is currently not great, but I do think the next step would be an Epcot area resort.



What makes you think aulani is only 50% sold


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## chromeo (Oct 17, 2020)

DazedandConfused said:


> What makes you think aulani is only 50% sold



Because Disney had declared 55% pre-Covid, and it's not exactly flying off the shelves.  Maybe I'm off by a few percent now.


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 19, 2020)

chromeo said:


> Because Disney had declared 55% pre-Covid, and it's not exactly flying off the shelves.  Maybe I'm off by a few percent now.



Why won't they just sell it for cheaper? It's already 8 years old so you're losing value on the expiration date of the contract.


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## Dean (Oct 20, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Why won't they just sell it for cheaper? It's already 8 years old so you're losing value on the expiration date of the contract.


They've offered additional incentives.  DVC has always taken a long term approach in such matters all the way back to VB which sold poorly with SSR which took forever to sell as well.  Plus they'll need inventory to sell over the next few years, not everyone wants Riviera.


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## ljmiii (Oct 20, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Why won't they just sell it for cheaper? It's already 8 years old so you're losing value on the expiration date of the contract.


DVC is in no rush to sell Aulani - they make plenty of money renting out the villas for cash. Also the resale market is currently telling us that 21 years = forever, some of the most expensive resale contracts expire Jan 2042. So Aulani's 2062 expiration date is long past forever.


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 20, 2020)

Dean said:


> They've offered additional incentives.  DVC has always taken a long term approach in such matters all the way back to VB which sold poorly with SSR which took forever to sell as well.  Plus they'll need inventory to sell over the next few years, not everyone wants Riviera.



Understandable about Riviera. Putting those resale restrictions makes me want to own Riviera even less. It's easy to bypass those restrictions anyways if you use the forums. You can simply rent your restricted points out and rent Riviera points, so the restrictions are just a stupid move on their part.


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## Dean (Oct 20, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Understandable about Riviera. Putting those resale restrictions makes me want to own Riviera even less. It's easy to bypass those restrictions anyways if you use the forums. You can simply rent your restricted points out and rent Riviera points, so the restrictions are just a stupid move on their part.


Maybe though I tend to think they know more than we do in this area and I'm not sure easy is the word I would use but it is workable if that's the situation one finds themselves in.  The reality is that many people don't know about the alternatives going in and even for those that do, many will buy anyway.  I also think most on the BBS are far overestimating the impact of the restrictions both on the sales side and on the resale side but time will tell.  Even most that know they can rent both directions won't.  How many times have I seen people post they've bought retail when they knew about the alternative and savings.  Even before any restrictions it wasn't uncommon to see someone say they bought retail because they trusted Disney and/or were uncertain of the resale process.


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## chromeo (Oct 20, 2020)

The sales plan pre-Covid was obvious from all the kiosks everywhere (I passed three between my room and the bar at Poly pre-Covid).  DVC is trying to be like all the other timeshares and sell emotionally at the parks.  It doesn't care if your purchase holds value.  It doesn't care if you get hosed when life happens and you have to sell.  They already cashed the check.  That's kind of the point, like everyone else.  But it will take a looooong time to get there.

This will make a new class of DVC that is locked down resale.  Even that will still have some value, because it is still a Disney resort, just more limited in booking.


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## Dean (Oct 20, 2020)

chromeo said:


> The sales plan pre-Covid was obvious from all the kiosks everywhere (I passed three between my room and the bar at Poly pre-Covid).  DVC is trying to be like all the other timeshares and sell emotionally at the parks.  It doesn't care if your purchase holds value.  It doesn't care if you get hosed when life happens and you have to sell.  They already cashed the check.  That's kind of the point, like everyone else.  But it will take a looooong time to get there.
> 
> This will make a new class of DVC that is locked down resale.  Even that will still have some value, because it is still a Disney resort, just more limited in booking.


But isn't that as it should be.  IMO looking at this from a business standpoint they should have done a LOT more a lot earlier to separate retail and resale.  Probably a true VIP system.


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## chromeo (Oct 23, 2020)

Dean said:


> But isn't that as it should be. IMO looking at this from a business standpoint they should have done a LOT more a lot earlier to separate retail and resale. Probably a true VIP system.



Maybe.  I guess there are plenty of other timeshares with this model, and they seem to sell enough.  So someone is making money, and too bad if customers lose all that money when they change their mind.  Shareholders win.  I guess it might make more cash long term, when combined with some more aggressive salesmen.  It just isn't a system I'm interested in.  I bought into DVC because it has resale value and could always be sold if I wanted to.

It's hard for me to square the sad stories of people losing their shirts here on TUG with the Disney brand.  I'm sure DVC has scammy salesman, and boy do they have an emotional connection to sell you, I just thought the product wasn't scammy.  But that was the (very recent) old version of DVC, which was a different product in a different, pre-2020 time.


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## Dean (Oct 23, 2020)

chromeo said:


> Maybe.  I guess there are plenty of other timeshares with this model, and they seem to sell enough.  So someone is making money, and too bad if customers lose all that money when they change their mind.  Shareholders win.  I guess it might make more cash long term, when combined with some more aggressive salesmen.  It just isn't a system I'm interested in.  I bought into DVC because it has resale value and could always be sold if I wanted to.
> 
> It's hard for me to square the sad stories of people losing their shirts here on TUG with the Disney brand.  I'm sure DVC has scammy salesman, and boy do they have an emotional connection to sell you, I just thought the product wasn't scammy.  But that was the (very recent) old version of DVC, which was a different product in a different, pre-2020 time.


Certainly it's changed over the years as was inevitable.  When I bought originally it was just called "The Disney Vacation Club" which is now OKW.  Colored cloth napkins, colored embroidered towels, nothing glued down, a separate member check in desk, etc.  But even then it was just a timeshare, no more and no less.  While I'm not sure about people losing their shirt's with DVC; any timeshare purchase, including DVC, should be throw away money financially.  If anything, DVC has done better and held it's value better than anything else over the years even today.  But let's be clear, DVD's job is to sell timeshare, no more and no less.  DVCMC's job is to manage those timeshares under the rules of the POS.  I personally don't buy the idea that one should expect more (or less) because it's Disney.  There was never a guarantee of long term sales options or value, quite the contrary if you read the POS where this issue is actually spelled out.


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## elaine (Oct 23, 2020)

Dean said:


> If anything, DVC has done better and held it's value better than anything else over the years even today.


I'd have no issues buying resale for usage for 5-7 years with a plan to divest. Even direct, if you've used it for 5+ years is not a terrible deal. you'll likely recoup a substantial portion of your capital outlay.


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