# Westin Kierland Explorer Pkg Experience, sales not so great...



## Ekaaj (Aug 25, 2007)

Hi everyone,

I am just posting this in case anyone is interested in the information.  Sorry if it's long, but I wanted to be very clear.

Quick background: DH and I went to our very first timeshare presentation nearly 2 years ago, at Westin Kierland.  Weren't sure if it was right for us, bought Explorer Pkg to return.  Researched many other timeshares, went to a couple other presentations, etc.  We really do think SWood has a great VO system, but decided timesharing isn't right for us at this time, for various reasons.  (And yes, if we do ever buy SWood, it will be resale, and then maybe requal a developer week if that's still available.)

Recently stayed at WKV for 4 nights on the pkg, and attended the required presentation again.  Check-in was fine, except that they put us in Bldg 1, in the room over the trash bins and delivery area.  Not only did it smell, but the trash and delivery trucks, plus noise from the workers yelling, woke us up very early in the morning, and the noise continued for a couple of hours.  After much discussion, they finally moved us to a quieter room.  I was simply surprised that with a resort that wasn't full, (90%) they would use such a poor room location for someone on the Explorer Pkg.  Wouldn't you want to put your best foot forward?

Room location aside, we did have a very nice time.  We always love the villas and resort, and the pool staff at the resort seems to have improved since we were there last.  TIP: Taylor at the resort bar makes fantastic margaritas, (and other drinks!) and the server Donny is quite amusing to talk to.

Our chief complaint was our presentation.  We met with Aziz, and we were very upfront with him about our research, our decision to not purchase, and why.  I understand that his job is to sell, but he was actually quite insulting during much of the presentation, was obviously angry about our decision, and LIED about many things - something I do not tolerate from salespeople.  They want to sell - fine - at least TRY to be honest about it!  

Anyway, since we had done so much research, and also thanks to TUG, we probably knew more than he did about Starwood and SVO.  Aziz was cagey and difficult to talk with, and refused to listen to any of our concerns, even after saying many times, "Ok, we can talk about whatever you'd like to talk about."  Then when we tried to actually discuss the SVO program with him, and our thoughts on the positives and negatives, he went right back to his sales pitch.  Come on - if you have a buyer who clearly will NOT be purchasing, (we told him so at _least _20 times), then don't you at least want to know why?  I would.  

He overinflated hotel prices, underinflated the # of Starpoints needed for stays, claiming, for instance, that you can trade your villa week for a one week suite in the Westin Excelsior or St. Regis in Rome, Italy, or even one week in an overwater bungalow at Sheraton Moorea.  No, you can't.  You might get 2 or 3 days in a regular room in Rome, and overwater bungalows can't be booked with just points anymore.  He even claimed that owners can reserve outside their home resort online - unless that changed in the past few weeks since I looked at TUG, he is lying about that one!  He also tried to tell us that the Hawaii villas rent for $7,000 per week.  I actually _laughed _at that one.  When we told him he was incorrect on many of his points, he refused to acknowledge it, and just tried to go back to his VERY hard sell.  

We finally refused to talk to him anymore, and as we had been there for more than an hour and 40 minutes, we asked for our certificate.  After he insulted us one final time regarding the price we paid for our Explorer Pkg, we left.  (And yes, I know the Explorer Pkg isn't the greatest deal in the world, but it beats paying over-inflated developer prices!  Plus, we had a very nice vacation and a bunch of points towards a future vacation!)

My point is that if anyone is headed to WKV for a sales presentation or add'l purchase, you might want to steer clear of Aziz, even if it means calling ahead and requesting another salesperson.  I did speak with a mgr in the sales office about our experience, and she was very apologetic and understanding.  I told her that we know that SWood has a good program, and you shouldn't need to lie in order to sell it.  It simply isn't right for us at this time.  The mgr gave us some extra Starpoints as an apology - we didn't ask for anything - which I thought was very nice.

Overall, we still like SWood hotels, and will probably return to Westin Kierland resort or the villas in the future, just for a night or two.


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## Fletcher921 (Aug 25, 2007)

Interesting..

I also have to ask...  We are going to the property in a couple weeks - can you be specific with any advice regarding what we may want to ask for in regards to room location??  We have 8 units reserved on getaways - a bunch of golfers (our men...) reserved the whole week although they are only using 3 nights.  The 'wives' and significant others get to go for the first part of the week....


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## Ekaaj (Aug 25, 2007)

I responded to your other post - I'll still see if I can find the map and scan it.  I'm not so great with our scanner, but hubby knows how and he'll be home later.


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## Fletcher921 (Aug 25, 2007)

thank you!!!


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 26, 2007)

Sorry to hear about your conflict.  Aziz was the guy we worked thru (see my 2 threads on this - end of March and in the 'sticky') - we didn't really have the same issues.  I used the misinformation (similiar to every SVO TS sales presentation) to our advantage in some ways - and kept in perspective what they are paid to do (and, yes, the tactics suck) and what we wanted.  They made their sale - and we walked away with an EOY WPORV at a 'fair' price (for a Developer sale).  'Win-Win'.
  Knowledge is power - especially in negotiations. I didn't waste my time on correcting the misinfo (except when it pertained to what we wanted) - and tried to learn from the 'experience'.  Like... no more Owner Updates for us - not worth the incentives anymore.


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## Ekaaj (Aug 26, 2007)

DavidnRobin, I'm glad your experience was better.  I do wonder if part of that was because you were actually buying, though, as opposed to us deciding not to purchase.  Aziz clearly was unhappy with that.  As for the "misinformation", as you so gently put it , I guess I just don't see why they should lie in the first place.  SWood _is_ a good program, so why not just be honest about the benefits?  But that's just me -  I don't lie to my clients, and they end up happy with the services I provide them b/c I don't promise what I can't give.


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## zinger1457 (Aug 27, 2007)

I had the same problems with Aziz about 2 years ago.  Complained to the manager but it obviously did little good.  At first I wasn't sure if he was just ignorant of SVO or lying but I've no doubt now he's making things up to get a sale.  The sad part is SVO management is aware of it and doesn't do anything about it.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 27, 2007)

zinger1457 said:


> I had the same problems with Aziz about 2 years ago.  Complained to the manager but it obviously did little good.  At first I wasn't sure if he was just ignorant of SVO or lying but I've no doubt now he's making things up to get a sale.  The sad part is SVO management is aware of it and doesn't do anything about it.



I recall Robin saying how well I handled Aziz - he was really pissing her off (and she is incredibly easy going...).  I just kept my cool, and shared only what I needed to share.  I ended up with a deal that I thought I would never get (as others pointed out during my real-time experience thread) - I must have walked away 3-4 times.  I agree - his job is to sale TSs by hook or crook. I used this in my favor - especially when I had nothing to lose except a few hours, and he probably had a sales quota to fill.

I agree that from top to bottom - SVO still has the old TS mentality - it is really too bad.  Our first TS presentation in Kauai (where we bought and rescinded WKORV-N) was so full of misinfo - looking back - it was truly remarkable. The TS salesman and 'finance' guy were also a piece of work - I walk out with a PC, but said I would likely rescind - when I did - they got really pissed and kicked up the BS.  e.g saying that next month the WKORV-N OF would be over $80K (up from $74K) - it dropped to $68K.  Attempting to make me feel like an idiot for passing up 'such a deal' - right...

Luckily - we found TUG - and now I am armed with more info than even the TS salepeople seem to have.


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## Kagehitokiri (Aug 27, 2007)

map in this thread >
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53822


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## dougp26364 (Aug 28, 2007)

Keep in mind that many of the TS salesmen you encounter can't afford to buy the product they're selling. Many are green (Aziz obviously is not) and don't know diddly other than what their sales managers feed them. Those that remain often pitch heat to get the sale throwing enough contracts against the wall that some of them stick. If you don't get the contract signed you have zero chance the sale will stick.

BTW, while it might not make sense to put a prospect in the worst location, you have to understand that your at the bottom of the pecking order for unit location. I'm certain that owners will have preference followed by owners staying off their time followed by other Starwood internal exhcnagers, outside exchangers and finally renters/explorer package guests. If the resort was only 90% full I can't think of why they'd put you in that location unless the other 10% were undergoing yearly maintenance/renovations at that time.


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## Ekaaj (Aug 28, 2007)

dougp26364 said:


> BTW, while it might not make sense to put a prospect in the worst location, you have to understand that your at the bottom of the pecking order for unit location...If the resort was only 90% full I can't think of why they'd put you in that location unless the other 10% were undergoing yearly maintenance/renovations at that time.



We understand all that.  There were other rooms available at the time - we checked.

In regard to the sales tactics, I still maintain that SWood would be better off overall if they gave their salespeople correct info, and encouraged the sellers to be honest, as opposed to turning a deaf ear when their sales staff outright lies about nearly everything.  I could at least understand a small bit of stretching the truth, but not purely lying the ENTIRE time.  Clearly, Aziz has made a practice of spewing nonsense at potential buyers.


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## Ekaaj (Aug 28, 2007)

DavidnRobin said:


> Aziz was the guy we worked thru - we didn't really have the same issues.



And later...


DavidnRobin said:


> I recall Robin saying how well I handled Aziz - he was really pissing her off (and she is incredibly easy going...). I just kept my cool, and shared only what I needed to share.



I'm just wondering, which is it?  Did you really not have the same issues we did, or was Aziz lying and pissing off your wife?  LOL, I'm not trying to put you on the spot, just trying to make a point.  My husband said later that if we really WERE going to buy, he would have demanded to do so through a different salesman, and NOT Aziz.  I'm just wondering why you put up with that nonsense from him.  Unless the owners and buyers demand better service from the sales staff, you and future SVO owners will continue to have to put up with crap from people like Aziz.  (BTW, our first experience with the SWood sales staff was much better.  They weren't nearly so "hard-sell", and they actually listened to us.)   Whether I choose to buy or not, I would much rather have a pleasant sales experience, than one that is irritating and stressful.  

Anyway, I know it worked out for you, DavidnRobin, and you got the deal you wanted, which is really all that matters from your perspective.  From my perspective, it actually does matter _more _how I am treated, which then has an influence on whether or not I ever want to come back, or even send my friends back.  Two different agendas, I suppose, but not necessarily mutually exclusive.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 28, 2007)

Ekaaj said:


> And later...
> 
> 
> I'm just wondering, which is it?  Did you really not have the same issues we did, or was Aziz lying and pissing off your wife?  LOL, I'm not trying to put you on the spot, just trying to make a point.  My husband said later that if we really WERE going to buy, he would have demanded to do so through a different salesman, and NOT Aziz.  I'm just wondering why you put up with that nonsense from him.  Unless the owners and buyers demand better service from the sales staff, you and future SVO owners will continue to have to put up with crap from people like Aziz.  (BTW, our first experience with the SWood sales staff was much better.  They weren't nearly so "hard-sell", and they actually listened to us.)   Whether I choose to buy or not, I would much rather have a pleasant sales experience, than one that is irritating and stressful.
> ...



I can understand your confusion - quickly writing posts tends to to that.  He was pissing off Robin because of his approach and hard-sell techniques - and since she is usually more laid back then me (remembering of course that we are from NorCal) - it surprised her that I kept my cool and didn't tell him to F-off at some point.

From my perspective - I went in knowing to expect the BS (as we had been thru it 2x before), and armed with what I knew about the SVO system, resales, Requals, WPORV, V vs. M resorts, etc.  - and what I hope to accomplish (if anything).  It didn't phase me when I heard misinformation that was not pertainent to me (like the great value of converting SOs to SPs) - I even allowed him to go thru the entire SVO system presentation - even after I told him I was very familiar with it (I was still interested in any new developments).

Anyway - we finished the normal presentation time - and got our hard-earned incentive SPs.  Aziz was pretty much in-line from our previous TS presentation experiences.  It wasn't until the ExpPkg woman - that I realized that we could potentially get the deal we wanted (that I already wrote about ad naseum - there are 2 posts on this - one link is in the requal sticky, the other in this section around the same time - late March).  Up to this point - I was not biting on what they were selling - and was just trying to get out in 90 minutes.

This is when the fun began from a negotiation standpoint.  Aziz was actually helpful in making it happen because of his experience - this came after our 'Owner Update'.  Their office knew how to make it happen - along with Aziz, but that didn't stop me from almost walking out a couple of times.  Especially at the end when they came with a contract for 2008 - and I had stated all along that we were only interested in an EOY odd (2009).

I think the main difference is that I didn't take the hard-sell tactics personally (or Aziz's 'nature' - which is difficult to address and still be PC) - or as a challenge to my intelligence.  I was interested in an EOY (odd) WPORV, but only if certain conditions were met (some of which was said to be unattainable due to 'so-called' SVO Corp requirements).  I actually got more incentives than I expected since I was willing to do the deal without the ExpPkg incentives - which I would have never accepted on its own.

As doug wrote above - this is what they do (unfortunately) - there were plenty of people walking away with contracts (VV-Amelia mostly) - some of which I met by the pool which started my own impromptu poolside seminar (which I decided to 'cease and desist' on my own before WKV did -  ) - I wrote about this.

All the Best.


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## oneohana (Aug 28, 2007)

Ekaaj said:


> We understand all that.  There were other rooms available at the time - we checked.
> 
> In regard to the sales tactics, I still maintain that SWood would be better off overall if they gave their salespeople correct info, and encouraged the sellers to be honest, as opposed to turning a deaf ear when their sales staff outright lies about nearly everything.  I could at least understand a small bit of stretching the truth, but not purely lying the ENTIRE time.  Clearly, Aziz has made a practice of spewing nonsense at potential buyers.



How many salespeople tell the truth? I find that the sales managers are wrong also, are they lying? Or do they not know? I still go to the "owner's update" to find what other rumors are out there. I'm done purchasing, and I tell them upfront.
Most people going to these sales presentations don't know that the salespeople are lying. It seems that Aziz must be one of their top salespeople if he is still there. *wood would not keep him around if he wasn't making them money.


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