# VIP question



## GeraldineT (Aug 18, 2011)

We bought 469,000 resale points at Bonnet Creek.  I see all the discussions about resale and Non-VIP being "second class citizens".  Maybe I am missing something but I have never had any sort of issue or problem.  I do most online but the few times I gave called I was helped very professionally.  I do not feel less of an owner because of not being VIP or having bought resale.  

What are the benefits to being VIP.  I know extra discouts and maybe upgrades but is it worth the additional money spent.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 18, 2011)

I don't feel they treat VIP all that special (we are VIP Plat).  The sales staff has a way different attitude about resales than the staff who answer the phone.  Believe me, the staff at Wyndham are all really nice.  It's the people behind the scenes who are scheming to de-value our ownership.  They don't want us to use our ownership the way the salespeople said we could, that's for sure.  Those guest fees are very high.  Wyndham is making its money.


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## GeraldineT (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks rickandcindy.  When we were in the process of buying I had contacted Wyndham and they basically told me was that they don't care how you acquired your ownership as long as you pay your maintenance.  With so many people defaulting on their deed and behind in maintenance fees they should be happy that people buy resale.   This was a very different response than I got from Marriott who didn't want to give me the time of day.  As for the sales staff I really don't give a rats ass what they think because I don't plan on buying more points.


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## WeLovetoTravel (Aug 18, 2011)

Geraldine-
I am also a VIP owner. We were uneducated, uninformed buyers. I did not find TUG until a couple of years ago. The VIP benefits were not worth what we paid! We are making the best of our ownership, and most importantly using our points on great vacations, just like you. Only the sales weasels will try to tell you that you are second class!
-Deb


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## timesharedollars (Aug 18, 2011)

At the Gold level (About $80,000 Retail) the VIP benefits do become substantial with respect to getting more out of the points you own.  Your points stretch further if you are able to book within 60 days (Very possible off-peak but almost impossible at peak).  You would use 35% less points to book a 1 bdrm and get a free upgrade to a 2 bdrm if available.  This can mean using as little as 10% of the points in the chart when you can combine discount and upgrade.  You can get a free hard copy of the Wyndham book and learn all the VIP benefits by ordering one online through your account.  Just go to Services Tab, select directory and then go to the bottom and order the free book.  Wyndham will never treat you as lesser owner, its just that your points may not go as far and you may get nickel and dimed a bit more for things like extra reservations and housekeeping.  If you are traveling at inside of 60 days and want to share in some VIP benefits then considering renting points from a TUGGER that will usually only charge you for the maint fees on the points they use for you.  This means you can benefit from discounts and upgrades they are able to use to book your stay.  Just a thought.


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## timeos2 (Aug 18, 2011)

GeraldineT said:


> We bought 469,000 resale points at Bonnet Creek.  I see all the discussions about resale and Non-VIP being "second class citizens".  Maybe I am missing something but I have never had any sort of issue or problem.  I do most online but the few times I gave called I was helped very professionally.  I do not feel less of an owner because of not being VIP or having bought resale.
> 
> What are the benefits to being VIP.  I know extra discouts and maybe upgrades but is it worth the additional money spent.



VIP is a total sales BS now (as to get it you would have to pay 100 times what it could be worth & there is ZERO guarantee of future value. Plus it canny be resold so the value is zero. Big 0.  Don't worry about it, think about it or ever try to get it.) 

We have never felt the least bit slighted by not being VIP &, many times, have received the same "perks' despite the fact that we we 100% resale owners, no VIP, for over 5 years.  Ignore it.


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## timeos2 (Aug 18, 2011)

timesharedollars said:


> At the Gold level (About $80,000 Retail) the VIP benefits do become substantial with respect to getting more out of the points you own.  Your points stretch further if you are able to book within 60 days (Very possible off-peak but almost impossible at peak).  You would use 35% less points to book a 1 bdrm and get a free upgrade to a 2 bdrm if available.  This can mean using as little as 10% of the points in the chart when you can combine discount and upgrade.  You can get a free hard copy of the Wyndham book and learn all the VIP benefits by ordering one online through your account.  Just go to Services Tab, select directory and then go to the bottom and order the free book.  Wyndham will never treat you as lesser owner, its just that your points may not go as far and you may get nickel and dimed a bit more for things like extra reservations and housekeeping.  If you are traveling at inside of 60 days and want to share in some VIP benefits then considering renting points from a TUGGER that will usually only charge you for the maint fees on the points they use for you.  This means you can benefit from discounts and upgrades they are able to use to book your stay.  Just a thought.



It is nearly impossible to ever get anything near what it would cost to get VIP (now) and that's if they didn't reduce future values - which they have & likely will again. Don't even consider VIP as to get it you have to buy retail & that s NEVER a good value. NEVER. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT OR YOU WILL PAY WAY TOO MUCH!


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## Shelbyd95 (Aug 20, 2011)

The salesperson told us they are selling retail points for $220/1000...That's just plain crazy...As far as VIP goes, we do use the benefits like discounted points within the 60 days and this year we booked our reservations within the 30 days so got unit upgrades as well.  Do I think it's worth paying retail for VIP benefits...Not a chance.


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## ronparise (Aug 20, 2011)

timesharedollars said:


> At the Gold level (About $80,000 Retail) the VIP benefits do become substantial with respect to getting more out of the points you own.  Your points stretch further if you are able to book within 60 days (Very possible off-peak but almost impossible at peak).  You would use 35% less points to book a 1 bdrm and get a free upgrade to a 2 bdrm if available.  This can mean using as little as 10% of the points in the chart when you can combine discount and upgrade.  You can get a free hard copy of the Wyndham book and learn all the VIP benefits by ordering one online through your account.  Just go to Services Tab, select directory and then go to the bottom and order the free book.  Wyndham will never treat you as lesser owner, its just that your points may not go as far and you may get nickel and dimed a bit more for things like extra reservations and housekeeping.  If you are traveling at inside of 60 days and want to share in some VIP benefits then considering renting points from a TUGGER that will usually only charge you for the maint fees on the points they use for you.  This means you can benefit from discounts and upgrades they are able to use to book your stay.  Just a thought.



I would urge you to do the math..you cant get a reservation for 10% of book value..maybe 25% but not 10...and I wouldnt bet on doing everything at the 60 day mark or count on the upgrade every time...In fact if you wait until the last minute you may get nothing or have to rent a larger unit than you need because its all thats available.

A Gold VIP (500000 points) as someone has already pointed out, costs about $80000 retail and if they buy at a reasonable maintenance fee , those fees will be about $2500 a year

The big financial benefit is a 35% discount in the 60 day window and a possible upgrade. If you reserve a one bedroom and upgrade to a two bedroom, thats another about 35% difference (using bonnet creek as my example)

For the sake of my example lets assume our Gold member makes half his reservations in the 60 day window and gets an upgrade on half of them. If I was to duplicate the same reservations with resale points as our Gold member I will need more points than he has. I figure about 250000 more or a total of about 750000

There is currently an 800000 point  Bonnet Creek deal on  ebay  priced at $8000 and the mf is $4200

the difference in purchase price is $72000 the difference in mf is $1700 a year
It will take the  retail buyer 42 years to break even (and thats assuming he pays cash and dosent get a mortgage...If he borrows the money I dont think he will ever break even

I didnt figure the $1.00 a day USA today delivered to the room in my calculations (I just steal one form a VIP down the hall)

There is no question that VIP offers a financial benefit....Its just not enough that a retail purchase will make any sense


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## learnalot (Aug 20, 2011)

ronparise said:


> I didnt figure the $1.00 a day USA today delivered to the room in my calculations (I just steal one form a VIP down the hall)


:hysterical: 

Ron,

You crack me up.  I was also just telling DH about your recent, "...as Bill Clinton would say..." explanation.  Thanks for sharing both your sensible analysis and your satirical humor.


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## ronparise (Aug 20, 2011)

learnalot said:


> :hysterical:
> 
> Ron,
> 
> You crack me up.  I was also just telling DH about your recent, "...as Bill Clinton would say..." explanation.  Thanks for sharing both your sensible analysis and your satirical humor.



Thanks for the kind words, my wife finds my humor just annoying


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## GeraldineT (Aug 20, 2011)

Ron, your post gave me a chuckle.  Especially the USA today.  With 3 little kids I couldnt book a 1BR and take a chance that I get an upgrade because in the event that I didn't my vacation would be HELL.  

Right now we are looking at a week in October.  The discounts are just hitting.  Around 10% today and hoping it goes to 25%.  I also have a week in September for my sister and that was a 25% discount at 45 days.  Curious to see if it goes down more at 30 days.  

So glad i found this website.  Everyone has been so helpful.


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## ronparise (Aug 20, 2011)

I forgot to mention that even us non vip owners can get a discount once in a while..

At a recent "owner update" a friend of mine was advised (she is a VIPowner) to stretch her points by reserving the larger unit early, then within 60 days to cancel and re book a smaller unit and upgrade to the larger unit she just cancelled.. So I know the sales force is looking for ways to justify the high cost of a retail purchase....but the math just dosent work


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## vacationhopeful (Aug 20, 2011)

ronparise said:


> I didnt figure the $1.00 a day USA today delivered to the room in my calculations (I just steal one form a VIP down the hall)...



I taught you that one!


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## vacationhopeful (Aug 20, 2011)

GeraldineT said:


> Ron, your post gave me a chuckle.  Especially the USA today.  With 3 little kids I couldnt book a 1BR and take a chance that I get an upgrade because in the event that I didn't my vacation would be HELL.
> 
> Right now we are looking at a week in October.  The discounts are just hitting.  Around 10% today and hoping it goes to 25%.  I also have a week in September for my sister and that was a 25% discount at 45 days.  Curious to see if it goes down more at 30 days.
> 
> So glad i found this website.  Everyone has been so helpful.



Unlikely as that is the Mickey's Not So Scary Halloween Party, BikeOctFest in Daytona, and Columbus Day weekend.


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## shaun401 (Sep 2, 2011)

I would like some of the VIP benefits, but I not at the costs they are charging.


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## ronparise (Sep 2, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> I taught you that one!



Linda, You taught me a lot more than that....Thanks


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## drjkn (Sep 3, 2011)

ronparise said:


> I would urge you to do the math..you cant get a reservation for 10% of book value..maybe 25% but not 10...and I wouldnt bet on doing everything at the 60 day mark or count on the upgrade every time...In fact if you wait until the last minute you may get nothing or have to rent a larger unit than you need because its all thats available.
> 
> A Gold VIP (500000 points) as someone has already pointed out, costs about $80000 retail and if they buy at a reasonable maintenance fee , those fees will be about $2500 a year
> 
> ...


So u are the AH that takes my paper   shame on u cheap skate


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## vacationhopeful (Sep 3, 2011)

drjkn said:


> So u are the AH that takes my paper   shame on u cheap skate



Ron is not a cheap skate. He buys me beer whenever we catch up at the same resort.


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## learnalot (Sep 3, 2011)

drjkn said:


> So u are the AH that takes my paper   shame on u cheap skate



Relax.  He doesn't really steal your paper.  It was just ironic humor related to another thread.


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## timeos2 (Sep 3, 2011)

GeraldineT said:


> We bought 469,000 resale points at Bonnet Creek.  I see all the discussions about resale and Non-VIP being "second class citizens".  Maybe I am missing something but I have never had any sort of issue or problem.  I do most online but the few times I gave called I was helped very professionally.  I do not feel less of an owner because of not being VIP or having bought resale.
> 
> What are the benefits to being VIP.  I know extra discouts and maybe upgrades but is it worth the additional money spent.



The only REAL benefit is to line the sales weasels pockets with undeserved income thanks to the VIP (means retail now) buyers overpaying. You do NOT want to be a part of THAT group (also commonly known as uninformed buyers aka "suckers" in sales weasel terms) who pay Wyndham retail when you can literally get all the points you ever want for a few pennies or even free vs $12-$15 per 1000.  What a ripoff!  Don't worry about it - 99% of the "perks" you can get without VIP and the 1% you don't want to have to pay dearly for. Just not worth it. Enjoy your points. And VIP's don't be mad - if you have it from the old days when resale counted you did great - those that paid retail now know better don't you?  I hope so.


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## timeos2 (Sep 3, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> I taught you that one!



If you ASK at the desk they are also free. I can live without delivery to my door for a savings of tens of thousands - thank you.


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## ronparise (Sep 4, 2011)

drjkn said:


> So u are the AH that takes my paper   shame on u cheap skate



I didnt take your paper, I promise...I was just trying to make the point that VIP benefits are not worth the paper they are printed on.   

I get my news from from other places anyway...Bill Maher, Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert and David Letterman.


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## BellaWyn (Sep 4, 2011)

shaun401 said:


> I would like some of the VIP benefits, but I not at the costs they are charging.


GeraldineT:
As is accurately reflected by other owners in this thread a VIP ownership, when purchased through the developer, is an *excessively overpriced product.*  Ron’s examples are reasonably accurate. The math just doesn’t work. The perspective of Wyndham ownership, at any level, being a “caste” system is nothing but a sales distortion designed to speak to delicate egos.  The resorts don’t care what the ownership level is of guests visiting the property.  Volume does not determine quality of service, and rightly so.  The VIP attitude of entitlement we occasionally witness comes from highly un-informed VIP owners who do not understand the benefit or how to use it to their best advantage.

The perspective of “value” related to VIP is elusive.  How the value of VIP is determined is entirely dependent on how the VIP uses the benefit and what they expect to get out of it.  It’s not really about a newspaper or early check-in or even room entitlements.  All that is just sales hype.  VIP is also a dynamic product that tends to change at Wyndham’s whim.:annoyed: 

A VIP ownership is like having a silver dollar in your pocket that costs you literally thousands to obtain.  The unique nature of that silver dollar is that is has the capability of multiplying itself when you spin it correctly.  The ongoing argument is that *you will never be able to spin it enough to get it to pay for the initial cost, which is accurate* in today's market.

Now, all that being said….  I have a scenario for existing WYN VIP’s out there…..   Particularly focused toward Plats:

If you could get a reasonable amount of the cost of your developer purchase back by selling your ownership, would you take some of those funds and run out and buy resale and be still satisfied with a standard ownership?  You would, at that point, know what you would NOT be getting.  Would you be happy or would it just piss you off?


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## rrlongwell (Sep 4, 2011)

BellaWyn said:


> GeraldineT::



Moot question for most users of Wyndham.  Unless you travel all the time or are in the rental business (which I think is outside the scope of this discussion), the discounts for VIP amount amount to under $1,000 equilvant per year (the estimated value of the discounted points) for users that only want one or two weeks per year.  Ron is not wrong, for the relatively low user, the payback from a financial perspective makes no sense.


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## drjkn (Sep 4, 2011)

ronparise said:


> I didnt take your paper, I promise...I was just trying to make the point that VIP benefits are not worth the paper they are printed on.
> 
> I get my news from from other places anyway...Bill Maher, Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert and David Letterman.


OK
Never expected so much to be said about a Joke..

Ron can buy me a beer     LOL


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## Sandy VDH (Sep 4, 2011)

I am VIP Plat, with a 160K purchase retail from Wyndham directly.  It was the one and only timw we purchased directly from wyndham.  The plat status was written into the contract, at my insistence.  A year or so back when they automatically dumped the status of any one who had achieved status by resale,  I got my status reinstated after showing them copies of my contract.

It was worth it enough to me as I convert 3 non-points weeks, a resale, PICed 2 units, and did an equity trade on a unit that was about to be due a high SA.

I have just over 1 M on paper.  But we never use the pic weeks for points.  Too valuable for me where they are.  Because I am over 1M we get 30 GC per year.  I am on the look out for some additional points to add, but being picky about where we obtain them and at what MF.

So we got to VIP plat for about 14K.  Yes probably overpaid, but with the 30 GC, no transaction fees, unlimited house keeping, 60 day window 50% & free upgrades if available.  It does work for us.  

Our typical usage is 1 or 2 units, about 50% of points are either RARP OR standard ressies.  Remaining points about 5 - 8 units usually within 60 day mark.  Get free upgrade about 95% of the time.  But we are being flexible and booking resorts that have upgrades available.  We don't always have the resort or destination locked in.  Sometimes we are being opportunistic.


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## am1 (Sep 4, 2011)

I would not buy Wyndham without VIP benefits.  There are just too many junk fees that make planning too difficult.  

Hopefully this means that Wyndham would not cut anymore benefits.   They would be wise to keep what is left.


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## timeos2 (Sep 4, 2011)

am1 said:


> I would not buy Wyndham without VIP benefits.  There are just too many junk fees that make planning too difficult.
> 
> Hopefully this means that Wyndham would not cut anymore benefits.   They would be wise to keep what is left.



In over a decade and a half as non-VIP who used prime times and at least two bedroom units exclusively we paid a grand total of $135. in "junk fees". Hardly worth paying 10K + to "avoid", no?  And we never skimped. And virtually every year we wasted housekeeping credits - never bought one.  We had Presidential units, penthouses - Y2K in the penthouse of Royal Vista for a 50% discount in points (we didn't book until late Oct) will never be forgotten as one of our great stays.  By simply using banking, pooling and a tiny amount of rental points (again - under $500 over the 15 years) we always got a minimum of three weeks in a 2BR or more each and every year. Always school vacation/summer as we were stuck with those just as most other school aged kids families are. Being VIP would have cost us thousands and paid back a few pennies on average. Total bunk that there is any real value to VIP,  made especially true when you consider the costs to get it today (we could have got VIP with resale and STILL couldn't justify it - just the extra annual fees negated any "savings" it may have offered).  Oh, we also got our USA Today. And usually early check in.  He he.  The check in folks couldn't care less if we were VIP or not as long as we were pleasant at the time. Much cheaper than the bogus and costly VIP.  

Now it's far cheaper to rent - cut our Wyndham expenditure by over 50% with nothing required to be paid. We've already had two stays in 2011 and have a third coming up in November (all 2BR + - none more than $350 for 7 nights). We couldn't come close to that cost by owning.  We love Wyndham now more than ever as using but not owning is the ultimate - no VIP required!


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## AwayWeGo (Sep 4, 2011)

*? ? ? ?*




am1 said:


> I would not buy Wyndham without VIP benefits.  There are just too many junk fees that make planning too difficult.


With all due respect, isn't that another way of saying you'd rather pay full freight even knowing that you can get 99% of VIP benefits without being VIP, not to mention that you have to overpay grossly for the other 1% ?

Or am I missing something ?   (Wouldn't be the 1st time.) 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## am1 (Sep 4, 2011)

In response to the last two posts.

I am glad being non-VIP worked for you.  But you have since decided to change  your strategy.  

Awaywego, what you are missing is the 3rd option of renting reservations which timeos2 is doing of renting the reservations that he needs.  

With what RCI has done recently it is a very low return of banking portions with RCI.  No longer are there 28k 2 bedrooms in great locations.  

I am not interested in discussing the benefits/value of VIP as the question posed was not about that.


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## BellaWyn (Sep 4, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> Moot question for most users of Wyndham.



Which is *exactly WHY the question was posed specifically to VIP's* and not "most users."  And, I believe that if you re-read my post, *I completely supported Ron's position.*  It's not even arguable.  Maybe you could attempt to  answer the question for yourself instead of the whole of the collective Wyndham owners.  

If you think about it, *it's* really *a yes or no answer* and does not require pontification.

For you specifically Longwell, *I'd like to see you do that in one sentence that does not look like a paragraph.*



Sandy Lovell said:


> I am VIP Plat....  Our typical usage is 1 or 2 units, about 50% of points are either RARP OR standard ressies.  Remaining points about 5 - 8 units usually within 60 day mark.  Get free upgrade about 95% of the time.  But we are being flexible and booking resorts that have upgrades available.  We don't always have the resort or destination locked in.  Sometimes we are being opportunistic.


Thank you Sandy for your detailed response.  There are a few of us that obtained Plat from a mix of mostly re-sale & developer purchase for significantly less than what a developer contract would cost us today.  We were fortunate to get under that wire.  

Understanding that, is it safe to say your answer would be "no" on this question?  Meaning:
"No, I would not take the monies and purchase a resale non-VIP ownership for equivalent points." 

AND

"No, I would not be happy with that kind of ownership having now become accustomed to the VIP benefits."

If I am misinterpreting, please correct.


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## ronparise (Sep 4, 2011)

am1 said:


> In response to the last two posts.
> 
> I am glad being non-VIP worked for you.  But you have since decided to change  your strategy.
> 
> ...



The question posed was exactly about that, Here's what the op asked:

_What are the benefits to being VIP. I know extra discouts and maybe upgrades but is it worth the additional money spent._

I hate to beat a dead horse,  but Ill repeat my position....VIP benefits are super...and I would love to have them. This year I will spend  $2500 in guest certs that I wouldnt have had to pay if I was a VIP. . But what I own would have cost me about $375000 from Wyndham, instead of the $1000 I actually spent.  To spend $375000 to save $2500 dosent make sense to me. I dont book at the last minute so I dont enjoy the discounts and upgrades a VIP can get, but I could make the same case. To spend big dollars to save pennies, just cant make sense Of course if you are a VIP and you have already spent those big bucks, I understand your need to justify that decision to yourself ; and by all means I encourage you make the most of what you own. But dont make the same mistake twice, and dont try to convince me that knowing what you know now, you would do the same thing again(ie buy from the developer).


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## timeos2 (Sep 4, 2011)

ronparise said:


> The question posed was exactly about that, Here's what the op asked:
> 
> _What are the benefits to being VIP. I know extra discouts and maybe upgrades but is it worth the additional money spent._
> 
> I hate to beat a dead horse,  but Ill repeat my position....VIP benefits are super...and I would love to have them. This year I will spend  $2500 in guest certs that I wouldnt have had to pay if I was a VIP. . But what I own would have cost me about $375000 from Wyndham, instead of the $1000 I actually spent.  To spend $375000 to save $2500 dosent make sense to me. I dont book at the last minute so I dont enjoy the discounts and upgrades a VIP can get, but I could make the same case. To spend big dollars to save pennies, just cant make sense Of course if you are a VIP and you have already spent those big bucks, I understand your need to justify that decision to yourself ; and by all means I encourage you make the most of what you own. But dont make the same mistake twice, and dont try to convince me that knowing what you know now, you would do the same thing again(ie buy from the developer).



The reason I keep returning to this much beaten subject is to prevent the uninitiated from the false, sales fed nonsense, that VIP is a value AT THE PRICE YOU PAY TODAY.  It isn't possible to get the deal of 7-10 years ago of VIP via resale, and even then the numbers weren't in favor of VIP but the cost was tiny compared to today, and ignoring the ever declining value of the VIP program that has been sliding downward for years. No guarantees of any benefits whatsoever. 

As Ron and others have clearly stated no amount of twisted arithmetic or logic can make paying thousands, even tens of thousands in many cases, to possibly "save" (and remember, zero guarantee the benefit you rely on will remain available) a few dollars at most per transaction.  No amount of twisted logic makes the numbers work - you are paying far more than you can ever get back - no exceptions!  If you point to the million plus VIP point holder then whatever "savings" they may claim on guest certificates, discounted points and the ever popular $1 newspaper are far more than gone to the purchase price of those million points PLUS the annual fees on them.  With those two factored in the buyer cannot come out ahead - why else would Wyndham press it? To lose income? Be real.  They make more on VIP than any other owners. That's the real bottom line. 

So if you are a VIP by all means use it to the absolute maximum you can but don't kid yourself that you are ahead by being VIP. With a possible exception of those few who got it with resale way back & haven't carried too many points over all that time (for excessive annual required expense) you may be breaking even or even savings few cents per year. The rest of the VIP's I can safely say are losing money. Period.  So if you are on the fence about any type of plan to get VIP today to "save" forget it. It isn't going to happen and reaching for VIP is fulfilling a weasels dream and setting yourself up for unneeded expenditures.  

Wyndham is a great system. Buy 70% of what you'll use at resale and then use pooling, banking, borrowing & renting to fill in the rest. You'll get the best average price overall for the life of your ownership.  Even cheaper just rent Wyndham. Let the owners do the dirty work for you for far less than you could as an owner.  Either way you'll get true value vs the need to try to trump up imaginary savings that just don't exist in the VIP world.  

Disappoint a weasel = buy resale or rent and enjoy. Never let VIP bother or temp you as it's a false idol. Newbies PLEASE read & learn. VIP is bunk. Ignore it.


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## am1 (Sep 4, 2011)

ronparise said:


> The question posed was exactly about that, Here's what the op asked:
> 
> _What are the benefits to being VIP. I know extra discouts and maybe upgrades but is it worth the additional money spent._
> 
> I hate to beat a dead horse,  but Ill repeat my position....VIP benefits are super...and I would love to have them. This year I will spend  $2500 in guest certs that I wouldnt have had to pay if I was a VIP. . But what I own would have cost me about $375000 from Wyndham, instead of the $1000 I actually spent.  To spend $375000 to save $2500 dosent make sense to me. I dont book at the last minute so I dont enjoy the discounts and upgrades a VIP can get, but I could make the same case. To spend big dollars to save pennies, just cant make sense Of course if you are a VIP and you have already spent those big bucks, I understand your need to justify that decision to yourself ; and by all means I encourage you make the most of what you own. But dont make the same mistake twice, and dont try to convince me that knowing what you know now, you would do the same thing again(ie buy from the developer).



I was answering BellaWyn's question.  Then I responded to the two people quoting that post that I have no interest in discussing the value or lack of it in regards to VIP.

I am glad you are able to make your points work.  

You are right that $375 000 would be a lot to pay for what you own now just to be VIP.  

All I am saying that given the choice between being a Wyndham resale owner and not a Wyndham resale owner I would choice the later.


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## BellaWyn (Sep 4, 2011)

ronparise said:


> Of course if you are a VIP and you have already spent those big bucks, I understand your need to justify that decision to yourself ; and by all means I encourage you make the most of what you own. But dont make the same mistake twice, and dont try to convince me that knowing what you know now, you would do the same thing again(ie buy from the developer).



Ron, I wasn't trying to justify anything or convince anyone.  Not in the least!  *I FULLY SUPPORT YOUR MATH!*  My question was posed SPECIFICALLY to existing VIP Plat owners related to if they would be happy with a standard ownership now that they have had Plat.  It's not a justification and if you're not VIP then the question was not directed at you.  

AM1 and Sandy managed to answer the question from a VIP perspective (thank you very much).  I think it's a fair reflection for the OP to get an understanding from ALL types of owners.

So, clearly we have re-established:deadhorse:  that:
1) To *purchase VIP in today's market is ridiculously overpriced* and imprudent financially
2) *VIP's that have VIP *(regardless of how they obtained it or how annoyed they are with themselves or Wyndham) *like it* and probably would dislike going back to a standard ownership.

The polarized posturing of those two statements is WHY the Wyndham sales twits can suck people into a VIP purchase.  And it's why newbies keep coming back, over and over to ask the same question.


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## BellaWyn (Sep 4, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> ....buy resale or rent and enjoy.


If VIP owners did not exist for you to rent the extremely discounted pricing you are afforded what other options would you employ to obtain Wyndham property vacations?  Curious to understand whether you think the mega-renters are unable to break-even at some point on those ownerships.  I understand *this question does NOT apply to "standard owners" and am not recommending they purchase developer!  *

Just wondering what YOU would do if the mega-renter did not exist.


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## timeos2 (Sep 4, 2011)

BellaWyn said:


> If VIP owners did not exist for you to rent the extremely discounted pricing you are afforded what other options would you employ to obtain Wyndham property vacations?  Curious to understand whether you think the mega-renters are unable to break-even at some point on those ownerships.  I understand *this question does NOT apply to "standard owners" and am not recommending they purchase developer!  *
> 
> Just wondering what YOU would do if the mega-renter did not exist.



Two of our three rentals came from RCI - Both less than $300/week. No "mega owner" involved or needed. The third was from an owner I've known for years - no VIP involved. So that theory doesn't hold water although other rentals of WYNDHAM may have involved one are more mega owners but if so I wasn't made aware. Plus a non-VIP can get the vast majority of the discount as well- usually about 10% less than VIP so even that benefit is limited in value. They do save on Guest Cert but again the dollar value vs cost makes no sense. 

Old VIP from 19xx to 2003/4 (whenever it was they stopped resale from qualifying) was borderline value - any purchased since retail required is a loser proposition. Again if you have it certainly use it as you are paying dearly for it and you'll never see that money back. 

New readers / potential buyers: Don't be fooled by VIP. It is a sucker play to benefit only Wyndham.


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## Carol C (Sep 4, 2011)

ronparise said:


> I didnt take your paper, I promise...I was just trying to make the point that VIP benefits are not worth the paper they are printed on.
> 
> I get my news from from other places anyway...Bill Maher, Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert and David Letterman.


  Truly fair and balanced! :whoopie:


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## BellaWyn (Sep 4, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> *No "mega owner" involved or needed.  *The third was from an owner I've known for years - no VIP involved. So that theory doesn't hold water although other rentals of WYNDHAM may have involved one are more mega owners but if so I wasn't made aware.*<-- so, you're not really sure? *



It wasn't a theory nor was I trying to get anything to "hold water" with my question.  I was simply curious as to what you rent and how.  It might assist the OP in potential future options as she learns to navigate her resale ownership.:whoopie: 

John, I want to sincerely thank you for the volume of vehement disdain you have for a program you have never participated in because, gratefully, you have always been prudent enough in your financial decisions to not get pulled into the retail purchase.  It's energy most don't have to waste related to perception of misfortune that comes with hindsight.  

*I'm sure newbies that come to TUG to learn how to survive that misfortune appreciate being referred to as "fools" and "suckers" and gives them a sense of the support they were seeking.*

In the case of the OP, she clearly has saved herself the labeling by purchasing resale.  People come to TUG to learn how to improve on using their vacation ownerships.  Not to be berated or labeled. There are a plethora of verbal options that are softer.  Learn kinder adjectives!  You may be able to "save" more newbies that way because they won't be embarrassed to post their questions.:whoopie:


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## ronparise (Sep 4, 2011)

BellaWyn said:


> My question was posed SPECIFICALLY to existing VIP Plat owners related to if they would be happy with a standard ownership now that they have had Plat.  :



And I think you would be safe asking a standard owner if they would like to have VIP attached to their account, at no cost the answer would be "Sure!" 


And  if you asked a follow up question of those Platinum VIPs like this"

What if you had to go back to a standard ownership, and all the money you paid for that VIP status , principal and interest was returned to your bank account....would you be happy ?..I think that answer would also be "Sure!"


Unfortunately we dont have those choices. we are where we are because of choices we made in our past.....in every case we made the best decision possible with the information we had available to us. 

These discussions are not for our benefit, As John points out they are for the benefit of someone in the middle of their decision process. Lets give them the best information possible


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## timeos2 (Sep 4, 2011)

I don't mean to be offensive with the terms however they are freely & frequently used by Wyndham (and other) t/s sales weasels referring to the "marks" (another frequently used term) they are trying to push overpriced retail timeshares to.  Those who got caught shouldn't take offense as they simply got snared in a calculated plan to get their money - value be d*****!

Now my crusade is to try to inform those who didn't fall for it (current, non-VIP owners who get bombarded with "great offers" virtually every time they stay at a Wyndham resort) and of course non-owners looking to get into the great Wyndham system for the best value.  Both groups are well advised to close their eyes/ears/minds to the mere mention of VIP as it is playing to their emotional need to feel "special" at a tremendous cost.  Even worse is a retail purchase that doesn't include VIP as that is truly paying a steep premium for nothing.  

SO, to sum up, current VIP's my terms are meant to be applied as common language not stabs at you.  You made the best choice you could given what you knew at the time.  Please make the very best use of it you can & get whatever you can from it. I hope you get your money back in savings but honestly don't believe you will/can. 

For non-owners & non-VIP owners PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE listen & learn. 

THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE TO VIP IF YOU PAY ANY PREMIUM FOR YOUR POINTS!  NONE!  Ignore that fact at great risk to your wallet and an ownership you'll likely regret or at least enjoy far less value from than you can easily obtain using much cheaper resale for your purchase. 

That is as clear as I can be. I merely hope to save people from unnecessary & costly purchases they would likely live to regret. I have nothing to gain or lose if they decide to buy resale or retail or not at all.  My Wyndham ownership is gone and I can say overall it was extremely positive & we'd do it again in a heartbeat.  But today it makes no sense for us to own.


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## cbm32 (Sep 4, 2011)

timeos2

You have said it....and said it.....and said it.....and said it.   

I think we get it.


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## timeos2 (Sep 4, 2011)

cbm32 said:


> timeos2
> 
> You have said it....and said it.....and said it.....and said it.
> 
> I think we get it.



And yet a question on "Should I get VIP for...." comes up nearly every day. It cannot be said enough I guess.


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## BellaWyn (Sep 4, 2011)

ronparise said:


> And I think you would be safe asking a standard owner if they would like to have VIP attached to their account, at no cost the answer would be "Sure!" *<-- don't understand your point.  Why wouldn't people want something more for free?*
> 
> And  if you asked a follow up question of those Platinum VIPs like this"
> 
> ...


*Nothing in any of my posting advocates purchasing developer.  *The questions and answers are intended give the OP a broader perspective from all types of owners.  The chest-pounding resale owners always seem to have the louder voice by using harsh adjectives in describing the "stupidity" of those that purchased retail.  There is a point where it becomes counter-productive and serves to scare more people away than really help them.

And they will KEEP coming and keep asking as long as Wyndham has active sales.  Can't we find a more productive way to support those questions without the harsh ranting?:annoyed:


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## siesta (Sep 4, 2011)

am1 said:


> I was answering BellaWyn's question.  Then I responded to the two people quoting that post that I have no interest in discussing the value or lack of it in regards to VIP.
> 
> I am glad you are able to make your points work.
> 
> ...


 vip is a marketing ploy, put the kool aid down and walk away. The very essence of it is to encourage more point purchasing as well as to discourage people (that dont know any better) from buying resale.


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## BellaWyn (Sep 4, 2011)

siesta said:


> VIP is a marketing ploy, put the kool aid down and walk away. The very essence of it is to encourage more point purchasing as well as to discourage people (that don't know any better) from buying resale.


*All true. *
But as an experienced VIP Plat AM1 had an opinion.  It works for him and he was merely answering the question of "would I want my Wyndham ownership without VIP?"  The answer was not intended to mislead or encourage a developer sale.


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## Sandi Bo (Sep 4, 2011)

*VIP Platinum fan*

I'll speak from a VIP Platinum perspective. Perhaps my situation is unique, but I would think others may be in my situation, or could be someday.

My Dad is VIP Platinum and I (and my 4 siblngs) will inherit his ownership.  I can only guess, and at this point really don't want to know, how much he has spent on his 1.4M (M for Million) points. That is water under the bridge.  The point is that he does own 1.4M.  

This past summer, 25 family members spent a week at Daytona Beach (family from CA, NE, FL, CT, MA).  My 86 year old Dad was body surfing in the ocean, or floating in the lazy river with his 1 year old great-grand daughter.  This is what Dad bought his Wyndham for.  Kind of his legacy so to speak. It is important to him that we will continue to get together as a family, and this is what he has put in place to make that possible.

Are there other ways he could have spent his money? You bet. But this is what he did. I have learned how to rent his excess points, cover his maintenance and then some, and have time left for the family. (Still learning thanks to TUG).

Of one thing I am sure -- we want to keep the points together and maintain the VIP status. What makes this of value, is the VIP Platinum status. If it wasn't a VIP Platinum account, I'm not sure we'd keep it. 

I will have to say, to BellaWyn's point, that when I first came here, my initial impression was that the VIP Platinum was worthless.  I have learned that it is not. There are several levels of VIP and posts can be misleading when they generalize about VIP. I have learned a little about the posters, and the perspective that they come from (I hope) and now take that into consideration.

The point I would make is that every situation is different and there is not one right answer. VIP Platinum can be a good thing, buying resale can be a good thing, today, buying from a developer is probably never good - but who knows exactly what the situation might be.  

For me and VIP Platinum, the more I learn, the more I like it. There are many perks to VIP Platinum (that Sandy outlined above) that can really make ownership worthwhile.  And yes, profitable. Learning to use Wyndham properly has been the difficult part. I don't think owning a timeshare should be such a game, but it is, and so I'm learning to play it. One regret, I do wish I had gotten involved sooner. Advice to anyone in my shoes, the sooner you learn, the better.

BTW, getting the paper is really important to Dad (so please don't take his Ron). He enjoys his perks. He really wants his guests treated special (when he has had friends stay with him, or when my sisters or I have, he insists we have the master suite). But he doesn't like the bell hops helping with his bags (such as at Bonnet Creek).  He can do that himself. Just don't forget the paper. 

P.S. Sandy Lovell -- Wow - I'm so impressed. I can't imagine there are many that have obtained VIP Platinum status like you did. Maybe I'm wrong. I know my Dad did not, and he's a smart guy. He just kept believing the sales staff.  When he was at 1M he told me he wouldn't buy any more.  But someone talked him into Club Access (said it would lower his MF's). Cost him $20,000 to buy another 200,000 pts to get into Club Access. Then another $20,000 to buy another 200,000 to get out of Club Access.  I think that's how it happened (don't quote me).  I think that's how he ended up with 1.4M.  Like I said, water under the bridge. He is thrilled to see that money can be made, and that his heirs will use his "investment" as he originally intended.


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## ausman (Sep 4, 2011)

I think we are all agreed, if you have a VIP status, then it is good to have.

I also think we are all agreed it is not worth paying for to get.

As I have said previously, many times, someone has to buy retail so someone can buy resale. So as an experienced time share person what would be your advice to others?


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## AwayWeGo (Sep 5, 2011)

*Nothing That The Timeshare Companies Sell At Full Freight Is Worth The Money.*




basham said:


> So as an experienced time share person what would be your advice to others?


Pay no attention to the hard-sell razzle-dazzle & ballyhoo.  

Buy timeshares resale. 

Save thousands of dollars on exactly the same thing as full freight, or the equivalent, or something even better. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Sandi Bo (Sep 5, 2011)

*And check here first*

Don't do anything without running your scenario by TUG first.

One thing's for sure, you'll get lots of opinions and advice. There is lots of experience here, use it. Each situation is unique, so kick the tires here first. 

If you think you are getting a great deal on something, there will be another one (or ten) deals tomorrow.  Make sure you know what you are getting into before you make such a long term investment of your money and your time.  It will take time to learn the Wyndham system and how to make the most of your points.

And if you are looking to sell, DO NOT pay an upfront fee to anyone, no matter what.


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## AwayWeGo (Sep 5, 2011)

*People Ask...& Ask...& Ask...& Ask...The Same Things, Over & Over.  (So It Goes.)*




cbm32 said:


> timeos2
> 
> You have said it....and said it.....and said it.....and said it.
> 
> I think we get it.


Sure, you get it.  I get it.  timeos2 gets it.  Lots of TUG-BBS people get it. 

Unfortunately, not everybody does get it, & even so more & more newbies keep on showing up who start clicking at Square 1 just about every day. 

And it's not just Wyndham VIP they ask about. 

The same-old-same-old that's boring to the old hands is of vital interest to some of the newcomers, e.g. *. . .* 

-- What about ROFR?  Will it help support the value of my timeshare ?

-- Ever heard of [ _-- insert up-front fee hornswoggle here --_ ] ?  They said they have a buyer for my timeshare ready & waiting. 

--  Is [ _-- insert "relief" PCC here --_ ] legitimate ?  They say they can get me off the hook for my timeshare.  

-- I just bought a new timeshare for $28*,*500.  Is it a good deal? Should I rescind ?

And so on & so forth right on down the line. 

We can't expect that the newbies will all go back to the dim & distant past to seek out answers to those & other frequently asked questions.  

The only way to spread the word about VIP & ROFR & PCCs & up-front fees & buying resale, etc., is to keep typing it....& typing it.....& typing it.....& typing it.  

So it goes. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## cbm32 (Sep 5, 2011)

I apologize for not making my point more clear.  I have no problem with points being made multiple times on this site.  My post was really more aimed at the repeating of the same point ad nauseam in the same thread.

Maybe it is just me but I tend to not bother posting my opinion when I believe it has been sufficiently made by someone else (or more than one someone else) and, unless someone refutes my point with what I believe to be faulty logic, I try to not bother making the same point several times in the same thread.  

Again, maybe it is just me but when I see the same point being made by the same person over and over again in the same thread I tend to start feeling that that poster is becoming dogmatic and overbearing.

Just my opinion, for what it is or is not worth.

Now, following my own advice, I will attempt to refrain from making this point any further (at least in this thread LOL)


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## AwayWeGo (Sep 5, 2011)

*Repetition Is The Mother Of Learning.*




cbm32 said:


> I have no problem with points being made multiple times on this site.


Me neither -- nor within the same TUG-BBS discussion topic. 

Keep those TUB-BBS entries coming -- the same or different _mox nix_. 

Is this a great web site or what ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## BellaWyn (Sep 5, 2011)

AwayWeGo said:


> *Is this a great web site or what ? *



*Indeed it is!  Worth every penny and MORE that members pay for it!  

 Delighted to pay full retail to be a TUG member!*​


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## slabeaume (Sep 19, 2011)

As someone who was at first sorry I bought another EOY and had my 4 Pahio weeks converted to Wyndham (making me platinum VIP), I've since changed my mind.  I didn't really pay much to become platinum and don't really pay much more in maintenance fees.  I've come to really like the free guest certificates and no "booking" fees.  Really like being able to get properties at 50% of the normal points at 60 days out with upgrades to larger units---and I've done this many times.  And recently made my first exchange with Trading Places --- booked a 1 bedroom unit within the 60 days and was upgraded to a 2 bedroom for 50% of the points for the normal 1 bedroom --- and was able to get a 2 bedroom exchange into Maui for next May(I bet a lot of exchangers know how hard that can be--at least with RCI).  So I'm slowly learning to play the game and it can be a fun game to play.  So if you find yourself with VIP status, don't fret about it too much---learn to take advantage of the benefits.  Would I buy timeshares in general again----I'm not sure.  I think with as easy as it is now to get properties on Craigslist, EBAy, rental agents, ... , I probably wouldn't buy any!  Maintenance fees end up being about what a week rental would be.   But since I started buying them about 20 years ago, it's worked out fine.


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## rrlongwell (Sep 19, 2011)

*Discovery Role in VIP Process*

I have sat by a number of people at various Wyndham Locations being pitched buy a discovery package to temporarly raise the VIP level.  This pitch is being used when they do not buy retail.  Has anyone taken them up on their kind offer and if so did it really work that way?  The other version being pitched if you are already Platinium is to buy discovery packages to get the VIP point discounts applied to the discovery points.  Has anyone tried this, if so how did it work out.  These are usally being pitched as part of the buy more points and Wyndham will rent them for you theme (Extra Holidays, etc.)


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## toothlady (Sep 29, 2011)

*VIP*

If I am the lowest level of VIP can that be taken away?  Example.  I have 308,000 points.  VIP.  I purchase more points, will I still have the benefits from 308,000 point value?  Will I be able to have the benefit at the next level if I purchase enough points.  Does resale make my VIP null and void?


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## timeos2 (Sep 29, 2011)

toothlady said:


> If I am the lowest level of VIP can that be taken away?  Example.  I have 308,000 points.  VIP.  I purchase more points, will I still have the benefits from 308,000 point value?  Will I be able to have the benefit at the next level if I purchase enough points.  Does resale make my VIP null and void?



No, it does not. But the additional resale points may not qualify to use the VIP items.  They might not notice but if they do those points will be denied those perks.


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## ronparise (Sep 29, 2011)

toothlady said:


> If I am the lowest level of VIP can that be taken away?  Example.  I have 308,000 points.  VIP.  I purchase more points, will I still have the benefits from 308,000 point value?  Will I be able to have the benefit at the next level if I purchase enough points.  Does resale make my VIP null and void?



In my experience adding resale points to your account will not raise you to the next level of VIP but the new points will get the same treatment as your existing points 

for example if you add 200000 points to your account you will not go to VIP Gold,You will still get just 5 guest certificates but you will  get free housekeeping for all your reservations, and if you were to make all your reservations in the express reservations window, you will get a 25% discount on them all..


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## Sandy VDH (Sep 29, 2011)

I concur, because status is on account, and not directly on individual point sources.


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## kaio (Sep 30, 2011)

BellaWyn said:


> * Delighted to pay full retail to be a TUG member!*​



:rofl: Hahahahaha.  Be reminded, to my experience 15% of the time, Wyndham transfers VIP benefits accidently.  then 25% of _those_ instances, they will _eventually _take those VIP benefits away that they accidently trasferred (usually if you contact customer service for some reason or another), and 1% of _the scenerios where they take away your resale VIP_, they GIVE IT RIGHT BACK a few weeks later (have seen it happen).  Of course this is like a lottery, never expect to come out ahead....

Edit: To RonParadise; that is my experience as well.


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## rrlongwell (Sep 30, 2011)

kaio said:


> :rofl: Hahahahaha.  Be reminded, to my experience 15% of the time, Wyndham transfers VIP benefits accidently.  then 25% of _those_ instances, they will _eventually _take those VIP benefits away that they accidently trasferred (usually if you contact customer service for some reason or another), and 1% of _the scenerios where they take away your resale VIP_, they GIVE IT RIGHT BACK a few weeks later (have seen it happen).  Of course this is like a lottery, never expect to come out ahead....
> 
> Edit: To RonParadise; that is my experience as well.



Do you mind if I ask if your experience base is wide enough to suggest the percentages may be good indicators?

P.S.  I did not know there was a re-sale market for Tugs Membership, maybe I should look into it.  I wounder if the benifits are less with re-sale of the membership.


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## kaio (Sep 30, 2011)

rrlongwell said:


> Do you mind if I ask if your experience base is wide enough to suggest the percentages may be good indicators?
> 
> P.S.  I did not know there was a re-sale market for Tugs Membership, maybe I should look into it.  I wounder if the benifits are less with re-sale of the membership.



Just my personal opinion rrlongwell...  who knows how much they screw up... they are never consistent anyway.


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## rrlongwell (Sep 30, 2011)

kaio said:


> Just my personal opinion rrlongwell...  who knows how much they screw up... they are never consistent anyway.



That is a trueism.


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## dr_adventure (Oct 9, 2011)

slabeaume said:


> As someone who was at first sorry I bought another EOY and had my 4 Pahio weeks converted to Wyndham (making me platinum VIP), I've since changed my mind.  I didn't really pay much to become platinum and don't really pay much more in maintenance fees.  I've come to really like the free guest certificates and no "booking" fees.  Really like being able to get properties at 50% of the normal points at 60 days out with upgrades to larger units---



I'm VIP Platinum and spent about 50K - which is a lot - but the unlimited reservations and 50% discount are great if you like to do short 1-2 night stays in a number of locations (as I do).  I did a combination of retail (though most were existing deeds and resale) - if you get the right sales person there are ways to get those resale points into VIP.  

I don't think you get treated any better being VIP - except at check in at Wyndham managed resorts.  Is VIP worth the money - in the long run it could be -


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## ausman (Oct 9, 2011)

In the long run, we are all dead, and VIP status matters little. 

VIP is hard to justify from a $ and cents perspective, if you have it, it can be nice to have. If you don't, then there is no way to justify the $ that are needed to obtain.


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