# Hyatt Portfolio Club Update 2021 - Some Actual Improvement



## alameda94501 (Dec 29, 2021)

It's been a while since our family fully explored Hyatt Portfolio Club (HPC) and so ... time for a "owner update" last weekend at our home resort!

Sales staff were fine and the general hybrid HPC presentation was the same.  But I did get some updates in the one-on-one after that might be helpful that show some changes:

1.  Annual Conversion Fee - shortly before COVID they *eliminated *the $133 fee to deposit legacy weeks into the Portfolio.  This is probably the biggest update; it means that there's no dis-benefit for HPC members who have legacy weeks to deposit - likely it should be an automatic way to completely convert the 'hybrid' owners to pure Portfolio.  This will give HPC members a permanent leg up on their Portfolio, as everyone throws their week in there.

2.  Welk - starting early next year they are creating a new internal exchange between Hyatt (presumably HPC only), Marriott Vacation Club, Vistana, and Welk on the Interval Intl platform, which is different from our existing general Interval Intl exchange.  They are rebranding all Welk resorts to "Hyatt".  They know there's a lot of upgrades for some of them, but not others (e.g. Northstar).  This is a stepping stone to a new system beyond HPC - it sounded like a main thought process is that eventually HPC will be sunset for the new consolidated system.

3.  Aspen - got a frank update on Aspen, so they are out of the legacy HRC after losing the court battle against Hyatt.  The 25% ownership that HPC still has is still available for HPC members (and if they don't take it after ~6mo, legacy HRC members).  Apparently the Aspen board of directors was the only one in the system that offered the Board President a six-figure salary (all other resorts are volunteer/free positions)?!  It definitely sounded like an 'interesting' community, I guess they had their own internal way of swapping weeks to keep weeks out of the 'riff-raff' legacy HRC members - maybe took themselves a little too seriously.  The salesperson thought that after a few years Aspen might "see the light" and return to legacy HRC, but for now it's out-of-bounds for us.

4.  Future Resorts - Pie in the sky, but it sounded like Portfolio is considering a new resort in Kauai with the trouble they have with Maui and HPC being pretty much locked out. 

5.  Club Fees.  The offer on the table is $19.6k for 1,000 HPC points and to scrub all of our resale legacy weeks into shiny developer HPC Elite status.  A nice side benefit confirmed is that because we would only start with 1,000 HPC points, we pay the small HPC "Classic" Club Fee ($157) annually but enjoy the HPC Elite benefits without paying the HPC Elite Club Fee ($248).  Not a huge benefit, but nice.  Keep in mind maintenance fees on 1,000 HPC points is almost the same as a 2,000 legacy HRC week in Pinon Pointe...

I think eliminating the Annual Conversion Fee is an indicator they are still interested in improving things - and are perhaps reaching a more confident point in their membership.  Earlier I looked over the first few years of Portfolio membership via the Orange County website and their hybrid/upgrade sales are strong (brand new Portfolio members - not so much).  I haven't looked recently after COVID but they were on track for fully selling out of the initial array of points by October 2020 (of course, COVID slowed that down and they added more weeks/points).

I'm not pro-developer by any means, but it's actually getting tempting for our family to make this our first developer purchase, when:

1. The legacy HRC lost a resort (Aspen) and will never get a new resort (really, besides Maui things have been slow for years before HRC was "legacy"- e.g. Escala Lodge in Utah)
2. The $0 Annual Conversion Fee will keep hybrid members fully in the Portfolio,
3. The HPC kept Aspen, 
4. The HPC is adding Welk (well, sharing with the other Marriott brands), and
5.  Elite WOH conversion rates (1 HPC pt = 50 WOH pts) are not great but an adequate "COVID-23" backup given our legacy week maintenance fees.

The downside is throwing $19.6k into the fire (zero resale value), and the 1,000 Portfolio points with their ugly maintenance fees.  In HPC we would be playing completely on Marriott's terms and at their whim, which is uncomfortable for a resale 'pirate' like us. 

I know this is TUG and I know it's a *deeply* unpopular decision to spend a dollar with the developer - but I welcome all feedback before we leave the resort as we consider this option!

... and Happy New Year!

[edit:  There are four members of the II Internal Exchange, not five]


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## vacationtime1 (Dec 29, 2021)

How much of this was in writing?


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## Sapper (Dec 29, 2021)

Thank you Alameda,

I appreciate your work analyzing the point program.

One of the things that concerns me is how easily they can change the program with out any input from the customer base. For example, the removal of the HRC conversion fee. They could just as easily reimplement it… and increase it beyond the $133. Maintenance fees seem to be based on the underlying deeds… however, let’s say they decide to increase the management fee from 10% to 20% specific to the HPP?  

An “overlay” for lack of a better word has been thrown about on the Marriott forum since MVC bought Interval/Vistana.  There was (is) the thought that they could not do it with the Hyatt system (cannot remember why, branding agreement???). Anyway, maybe what you are talking about using Interval as the go-between or overlay for the different systems is how they are going to do it?

The loss of Aspen from HRC and remaining in the HPP… until Hyatt/MVC decides to sell off their share since they no longer manage the property and replace point for point from a Welk property. I strongly suspect the “see the light and come back” is just marketing spin while they figure out how to deal with the situation. If getting into Aspen using HPP as the door, I would try to get something in writing in the purchase contract that if Aspen is reduced in the HPP, then Hyatt buys your points back at current retail rates. My guess is they will not put that into a contract.

Again, thank you for all the work you have put into this!


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## socaltimeshare (Dec 29, 2021)

alameda94501 said:


> 4. Future Resorts - Pie in the sky, but it sounded like Portfolio is considering a new resort in Kauai with the trouble they have with Maui and HPC being pretty much locked out.



Is HPC really locked out of Maui?  I know they haven’t yet, but couldn’t  the HPC trust purchase Maui deeded weeks just like it did at other HRC’s?     Either straight from the developer or through a ROFL process?  There are still deeded weeks being sold there…

The whole promise of a new resort reminds me of other rumors that never came to fruition, like a HRC in NYC.  Until it’s built I consider this to be little more than a talking point for sales staff.


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## Sapper (Dec 29, 2021)

I imagine they could buy the deeds, but would have to pay a heck of a lot more than ROFR. A system that does not want to buy it’s own deeds because they are selling for too much money retail?

I can see a situation where a Maui deed holder and is also in HPP decides to deposit their week into HPP… a Covid / use situation?  It would be rare, but could see it happening.


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## alameda94501 (Dec 29, 2021)

vacationtime1 said:


> How much of this was in writing?



1.  The $0 Annual Conversion Fee was in writing and in the current kit as of Feb 2020.  I could scan it in if you find it helpful.

2.   The Welk internal exchange was in writing on letterhead but they didn't give me a copy.  The date on it was a commencing to email members in January 2022 but I don't have HPC (currently) or other Marriott brands.  I did a quick check on TUG and it didn't seem like anyone has been sent the email yet.

3.  Aspen - I've followed the legal case and think there's nothing in writing but it all makes sense.  HPC's portfolio had a significant number of weeks at the start (all the unsold inventory as of 2017) so of course they can distribute those weeks to their HPC members (and when their members don't take it, to legacy HRC members).  The rumors/innuendo about Board president salaries and secret internal exchanges - not in writing.

4.  Ha!  Definitely nothing in writing.  We've been hearing about future resorts for years - the fact that they actually have something (Welk) really changed the tenor of the meeting though.  Before, it just looked like the legacy HRC but with more fees and without Maui - a tougher sell for legacy owners.  

5.  The "discount" Club fee at $157 instead of $242 is not in writing and would have to be taken on faith.


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## alameda94501 (Dec 29, 2021)

Sapper said:


> Thank you Alameda,
> 
> I appreciate your work analyzing the point program.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Sapper.  

Yes, it's truly hard to listen to the salesperson tell you that the removal of the conversion fee is evidence that "Marriott's customer focused" and that "Marriott will continue to reduce fees", when Hyatt sets all the rules themselves in a secret, dark cave shut off from all communication / social media.

I mean, a cynical view of the world means they suckered people (and many people do feel suckered) who agreed to the $133/wk fee.  The counter is that they increased their Portfolio inventory immediately by going $0/wk, making Portfolio members happier.  But an even harder cynical view of the world is that Marriott doesn't have to make their members happy at all once they trap them in a membership.  I definitely go round-and-round on it, it does seem like there's some longer-term/satisfaction thinking going on there, in that they actually removed it without necessarily needing to.  But who knows?  They always reserve the right to increase the conversion fee back to $133, $250, or $1000/wk....

Re: Overlay - Yes, it's always confusing talking to sales to begin with - they like to throw around guesses as facts.  But according to what I saw (a one page letter with very little details) the bones of the agreement were:

a.  A new II subgroup with the Marriott groups with different point structures, and
b.  Everyone can use it to exchange into Welk.

Also - they will all be branded "Hyatt" on the front door.

Re: Aspen - here are the numbers in writing.  The Portfolio includes 207 unit weeks (1,039,200 HPC/HRC Points) in Aspen, including 3bd, 2bd, 1bd, and 1bd lockoffs.  Unlike other resorts, these are *not* dregs - 3bd units in Diamond/Platinum weeks, etc.  It's not scientific but when you look at the individual Aspen unit-weeks that HPC has, it's 8 pages of units weeks of 2200pts-2950pts, and ~one page of unit weeks between 750-1450.  It's not a huge amount, but there seems like there was quite a bit of unsold inventory based on Aspen pricing ($350k/unit week?) that Portfolio inhaled in 2017.

The sales person's comment on "see the light" makes sense to me, in part because those remarks in context didn't help his position (i.e. sell more HPC), but really was about reassuring legacy HRC owners that Aspen may return to (legacy) HRC. He made some good points that their members would be on their own without systematized HRC exchange, wouldn't be able to access Hyatt management knowhow (I'm talking here about tactical experience like how to get a good price on toiletries) and economies of scale, and would likely have trouble to justify paying the board president his big salary.  I'm no developer advocate but I believe the Grand Aspen board has squandered a ton of money on board president salaries and legal fees for nothing.  The Grand Aspen board's legal arguments were basically "I spent $350k on a unit week and I don't like someone who spent $5k at Pinon Pointe (resale!) being able to exchange into Aspen".  HRC was always based on HRC Exchange, and they all got those in writing when they bought the unit-weeks.  HPC operates within the HRC Exchange rules for all these resorts in Portfolio, and additional absorbs the $41 fees - so HPC members will get to reserve those 207 unit weeks in Aspen for $0 fees (depending on their tier).

We're not a huge Aspen family - never been there - but my main point was that it just seems a little sad when legacy HRC is shrinking, and HPC is maintaining/growing.


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## travelhacker (Dec 29, 2021)

alameda94501 said:


> It's been a while since our family fully explored Hyatt Portfolio Club (HPC) and so ... time for a "owner update" last weekend at our home resort!
> 
> Sales staff were fine and the general hybrid HPC presentation was the same.  But I did get some updates in the one-on-one after that might be helpful that show some changes:
> 
> ...


You've done your research and you are very analytical. I think you'll make a good decision for you even if it may not be what I would do.

I personally don't see the value in it yet. I do think there may come a day when I will either feel like I need to sell my weeks or buy into HPP. 

I could definitely see the value in doing a retro of my weeks if there were some high quality resorts in locations I would want to visit, but I think that's a ways off. They got a ton of inventory with the purchase of Welk (Breckenridge).  I also think they may step up their efforts with buyback.

The Kauai thing is almost certainly salesman speak that has some basis in research a salesperson has done, but it is flawed. Welk owned a large Kauai property. There were talks of that property being used for a new resort after Breckenridge was sold out. However, when Welk was sold to Hyatt, the Welk family kept the Kauai property. So I don't believe that MVC owns any property that they would use for Hyatt development.


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## heathpack (Dec 29, 2021)

I can't imagine spending $19,000 ever for something with zero resale value.

If the day comes that I can't find timeshare inventory with my currently owned weeks- Marriott, Hyatt, Sheraton, Disney- then I'm out of the timeshare game.  I'll just sell an move on.

My typical AirBnB trip is around $2000, and I'd rather have a decade of flexible AirBnB travel vs throwing more $ into the timeshare pot.  Sure, AirBnB costs will likely increase over time.  But MF will increase and its seems like every timeshare system wants to sell me a "one time" buy in to decrease my travel costs forever.  Then five years later try to sell me another "one time" buy in under threat of losing access to my original thing I bought.  It will never stop, so why even go there.  As they used to say "Just Say No".


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## alameda94501 (Dec 29, 2021)

socaltimeshare said:


> Is HPC really locked out of Maui?  I know they haven’t yet, but couldn’t  the HPC trust purchase Maui deeded weeks just like it did at other HRC’s?     Either straight from the developer or through a ROFL process?  There are still deeded weeks being sold there…
> 
> The whole promise of a new resort reminds me of other rumors that never came to fruition, like a HRC in NYC.  Until it’s built I consider this to be little more than a talking point for sales staff.



I think it's possible, but has to be something like this - the Maui HRC owner has to become an HPC hybrid owner, and then annually convert their week into HPC (now $0, so they'll likely always do this if they don't HRPP).  So aside from the HRPP dedicated weeks, we'll end up with HRC CUP weeks for the non-hybrid Maui owners, and HCP ORP weeks for the hybrid ones.

I believe the issue was that Maui was built right at the inception of HPC, and so whoever they teamed up with for Maui's development probably didn't like the discount HPC pricing offered by Portfolio for unit weeks and preferred to go it on their own in legacy HRC while risking maintenance fees of unsold unit weeks.  

For the other resorts, they were older and probably appreciated the discount HPC pricing to get rid of their dregs with their associated maintenance fees.  My understanding is that the developer contracts involve HPC guaranteeing to purchase all unit-weeks that get "returned" (member death, foreclosure, etc) sight unseen.

And yes - new resort promises are a staple of sales staff.  But at least they got to chat about some apparent growth.


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## alameda94501 (Dec 29, 2021)

travelhacker said:


> I personally don't see the value in it yet. I do think there may come a day when I will either feel like I need to sell my weeks or buy into HPP.
> 
> I could definitely see the value in doing a retro of my weeks if there were some high quality resorts in locations I would want to visit, but I think that's a ways off. They got a ton of inventory with the purchase of Welk (Breckenridge).  I also think they may step up their efforts with buyback.
> 
> The Kauai thing is almost certainly salesman speak that has some basis in research a salesperson has done, but it is flawed. Welk owned a large Kauai property. There were talks of that property being used for a new resort after Breckenridge was sold out. However, when Welk was sold to Hyatt, the Welk family kept the Kauai property. So I don't believe that MVC owns any property that they would use for Hyatt development.



Yes, it's interesting that their one-pager showed Welk not being absorbed 100% into HPC but "split" amongst the other Marriott brands.  Given it was a sales meeting, I'm going to believe this as it doesn't portray HPC in a better light - and I pointed out to them that the other Marriott riff-raff would be competing with me on exchanges - they couldn't spin that.  

As for Kauai it was talk about a new Hyatt there but even the salesperson said not to purchase based on such a rumor...  

Not the best use of points, but now that 1:50 WOH conversion is on the table I was casually checking out their network.  It's gotten quite a bit bigger than when I looked at things several years ago on Gold Passport... along with new Class 6, Class 7, and Class 8 (!) resorts.  I think I saw three on Kauai that I could never afford cash.


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## alameda94501 (Dec 29, 2021)

heathpack said:


> I can't imagine spending $19,000 ever for something with zero resale value.
> 
> If the day comes that I can't find timeshare inventory with my currently owned weeks- Marriott, Hyatt, Sheraton, Disney- then I'm out of the timeshare game.  I'll just sell an move on.
> 
> My typical AirBnB trip is around $2000, and I'd rather have a decade of flexible AirBnB travel vs throwing more $ into the timeshare pot.  Sure, AirBnB costs will likely increase over time.  But MF will increase and its seems like every timeshare system wants to sell me a "one time" buy in to decrease my travel costs forever.  Then five years later try to sell me another "one time" buy in under threat of losing access to my original thing I bought.  It will never stop, so why even go there.  As they used to say "Just Say No".



I hear you.  I've found ways to manage only in Hyatt (wow, four systems including the Grand Californian, nice!) with informal swaps with folks in Hilton.  I'm hoping sometime to find a friend in the Disney system to do swaps as well.

But I don't really want to invest from the ground up in a second system.

Truth be told, I wouldn't mind for once being a Developer-blessed Elite in at least one system - which would make my external swaps easier as well.  

But if Hyatt is going to scrap HPC and make something else the "new shiny" soon with Welk, then that's going to make me upset.


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## Sapper (Dec 29, 2021)

alameda94501 said:


> Not the best use of points, but now that 1:50 WOH conversion is on the table I was casually checking out their network.  It's gotten quite a bit bigger than when I looked at things several years ago on Gold Passport... along with new Class 6, Class 7, and Class 8 (!) resorts.  I think I saw three on Kauai that I could never afford cash.



Be careful playing the World of Hyatt points game. There are lots of individual properties playing games now where units are unavailable. Examples range from slightly changing the room description so a room is no longer a basic room, hence, not available for points booking to making units unavailable unless booking multiple days in a row, or making a unit with a slightly different view a ”suite” (and thus higher points requirements) even if it’s the same square footage as a basic unit that there is no availability of for points… but is for cash booking. We are not even getting into the Hyatt authorized devaluation of points by “peak” booking periods. Hyatt corporate, either through negligence or simply turning a blind eye, are allowing their franchisees play points games now where in the past (pre-Covid) they were much more on top of things.


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## bradj (Dec 30, 2021)

vacationtime1 said:


> How much of this was in writing?





vacationtime1 said:


> How much of this was in writing?


Writing? Out of curiosity, I called 1 800 Go Hyatt to ask where I could find the Rules and Regulations and Terms and Conditions for the Portfolio Points Program. The representative looked and looked, but couldn't find any of that, but said she would ask her supervisor where those could be found. It took about 5 minutes, but he did come back with an answer. He would have to contact "Corporate" to find out where that might be found. Call back in a week or so. This ain't no brand new program. Employees should know this stuff. Sales persons can tell you anything. Often times do. alameda just be cautious.


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## alameda94501 (Dec 30, 2021)

bradj said:


> Writing? Out of curiosity, I called 1 800 Go Hyatt to ask where I could find the Rules and Regulations and Terms and Conditions for the Portfolio Points Program. The representative looked and looked, but couldn't find any of that, but said she would ask her supervisor where those could be found. It took about 5 minutes, but he did come back with an answer. He would have to contact "Corporate" to find out where that might be found. Call back in a week or so. This ain't no brand new program. Employees should know this stuff. Sales persons can tell you anything. Often times do. alameda just be cautious.



As is the case for every timeshare company, you can only get the details in writing after you "purchase" (with the 10-day rescission clock).  While I haven't completed a purchase yet from the developer, I've had to rescind twice before because I found a devil in those written details.  

I think it's kind of like buying hearing aids before Costco came around - it's just an inefficient market and every timeshare company tries to cram a high-pressure sales pitch into a couple hours, rather than have an efficient online portal where everyone can transparently see the details and discuss (and talk themselves out of the pitch).  

The written details you requested fit on a CD they give you and is 400+ pages long.


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## alameda94501 (Dec 31, 2021)

Sidenote - did anyone notice the new Hyatt portal reference to Aspen?  Sorry if it's been posted elsewhere:


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## boraxo (Jan 3, 2022)

There is a little too much jargon here for a newcomer. Is there a master thread that explains HPC and specifically if/how to convert legacy weeks into HPC? I would definitely like to get access to Aspen If there is a way to do that. 

however I am sure as heck not buying $10-$20k in points from a developer.


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## ivywag (Jan 3, 2022)

alameda94501 said:


> It's been a while since our family fully explored Hyatt Portfolio Club (HPC) and so ... time for a "owner update" last weekend at our home resort!
> 
> Sales staff were fine and the general hybrid HPC presentation was the same.  But I did get some updates in the one-on-one after that might be helpful that show some changes:
> 
> ...


Alameda-  Just curious if you bought the Portfolio? We, too, went to an “owners’ update” over the weekend and the sales pitch was nearly identical.  I must say, though, that the 2 sales people were very professional and knew a lot about the product.  We only had to educate them on one item.  This was at Highlands Inn.  The only thing that I forgot to ask about was restrictions on Portfolio points bought resale. Originally, I thought that they had to be sold through Hyatt, but have seen some sold on EBay and wonder if there are any restrictions other than maybe not being able to use for World of Hyatt. We did not purchase the points, but did purchase the return package offered at the end.


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## ivywag (Jan 3, 2022)

boraxo said:


> There is a little too much jargon here for a newcomer. Is there a master thread that explains HPC and specifically if/how to convert legacy weeks into HPC? I would definitely like to get access to Aspen If there is a way to do that.
> 
> however I am sure as heck not buying $10-$20k in points from a developer.


You can access Aspen with your HRC points for any HPC inventory available 6 months prior to checkin. Oddly, The HPC inventory does not show up when I use Safari to search, but is there with Firefox or Google. I don’t know why.  By the way, you’re not alone in your confusion about all of this.  I think that they make it confusing on purpose!


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## alameda94501 (Jan 3, 2022)

boraxo said:


> There is a little too much jargon here for a newcomer. Is there a master thread that explains HPC and specifically if/how to convert legacy weeks into HPC? I would definitely like to get access to Aspen If there is a way to do that.
> 
> however I am sure as heck not buying $10-$20k in points from a developer.



Apologies, @boraxo - it at first seems so complex compared to legacy, that I did write a series of posts a while ago (https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/h...ction-how-the-hpc-affects-hrc-members.294333/).  

But actually, the concept ends up being pretty simple.  In 2017 a new entity bought all the unsold property at nine Hyatt resorts including Aspen, and put all unit weeks in a big pool called the Portfolio.  This new entity (and all its members) still have to follow the same legacy HRC rules we do, but internally to them they can invent new rules on how to allocate the Portfolio inventory before it gets released into CUP for everyone, including us.  

So basically we still have access to the pool at 6mo after all the Portfolio members have picked over it.

Almost all of their sales into membership of the Portfolio are to legacy HRC owners, and every year if those "hybrid" owners don't use their guaranteed week, they also add to the pool, so it's growing in size.  

Anyway, for Aspen, even though it was unsold inventory it's not 'dregs' as you might guess - attached are the 207 unit weeks in the pool per the Orange County FL Public Record.  I'm no skier but the point value seems high to me.

But unfortunately you have to buy some Developer points ($10k maybe $20k) to get first dibs.  Or wait until the Portfolio members have picked over it, and it will start to appear in our portal.


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## alameda94501 (Jan 3, 2022)

ivywag said:


> Alameda-  Just curious if you bought the Portfolio? We, too, went to an “owners’ update” over the weekend and the sales pitch was nearly identical.  I must say, though, that the 2 sales people were very professional and knew a lot about the product.  We only had to educate them on one item.  This was at Highlands Inn.  The only thing that I forgot to ask about was restrictions on Portfolio points bought resale. Originally, I thought that they had to be sold through Hyatt, but have seen some sold on EBay and wonder if there are any restrictions other than maybe not being able to use for World of Hyatt. We did not purchase the points, but did purchase the return package offered at the end.



Thanks @ivywag - Both my wife and I do enjoy the sales team at Highlands Inn, even though we've yet to finalize a Developer purchase with them. 

Note that the restrictions on Portfolio points bought resale are terrible (unless you've already purchased Developer points and can make your tier without resale points) AND the maintenance fees on Portfolio points are high.  I'm thinking of putting out a post on historical Portfolio points maintenance fees because it's definitely rising on a higher slope than the resorts I have unit weeks at.

We took last Monday's package home to consider but are likely rescinding tonight.  Honestly we're at a point we'd bite if we get an offer to convert all of our weeks into an Elite tier with a 500pt developer purchase.


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## alameda94501 (Jan 7, 2022)

Just a short thread note that the Welk exchange benefits ($164/wk) are available to both HRC Legacy and Hyatt Portfolio members - not a good reason to purchase Portfolio!

Thanks to @seatrout for verifying no difference in exchange fee, visibility (12mo), and availability between the two!


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## enox5 (Jan 9, 2022)

heathpack said:


> If the day comes that I can't find timeshare inventory with my currently owned weeks- Marriott, Hyatt, Sheraton, Disney- then I'm out of the timeshare game.  I'll just sell an move on.



I'm new to the timeshare game (just bought a week with Marriott). How do you compare Hyatt to Marriott? From what I've read on this forum, Hyatt owners seem less pleased that the Marriott ones..

Apologies if I'm way off base! Is the Hyatt program any good?


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## dsmrp (Jan 9, 2022)

enox5 said:


> I'm new to the timeshare game (just bought a week with Marriott). How do you compare Hyatt to Marriott? From what I've read on this forum, Hyatt owners seem less pleased that the Marriott ones..
> 
> Apologies if I'm way off base! Is the Hyatt program any good?


I like the Hyatt resorts themselves very much. I've stayed in more Westins than Marriotts, but I think Hyatt is comparable.  The resorts are smaller in number of units. The HRC "legacy" reservation rules take a little getting used to, but there's no 'skim' as in the Marriott point system.  Most of the Hyatt owners in this forum don't like the Hyatt Portfolio (HPP) program and haven't bought into it.


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## alameda94501 (Jan 9, 2022)

enox5 said:


> I'm new to the timeshare game (just bought a week with Marriott). How do you compare Hyatt to Marriott? From what I've read on this forum, Hyatt owners seem less pleased that the Marriott ones..
> 
> Apologies if I'm way off base! Is the Hyatt program any good?



Hyatt is not for everyone, but for some (like our family) it's a better fit than Marriott.  Marriott and Vistana (including Sheraton/Westin/Vistana) tend to be in similar places that we don't vacation at.  Even after five years of going only to Hyatt we love the resorts and locations, and we've never lost a Hyatt point.  

There are two programs to get into the resorts:

1. The old Hyatt deed-based unit-weeks:  In this program a resale week, when purchased with high point value and low maintenance fees, are nearly as strong as an original developer purchase and has decent value currently if you want to sell it to someone else.  You can exchange into 15 resorts.

2. The new Hyatt points-based program has zero resale value and can only be purchased from the developer.  You can exchange into 9 resorts, all but one are part of those 15 resorts in the old system.


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## enox5 (Jan 10, 2022)

alameda94501 said:


> 1. The old Hyatt deed-based unit-weeks:  In this program a resale week, when purchased with high point value and low maintenance fees, are nearly as strong as an original developer purchase and has decent value currently if you want to sell it to someone else.  You can exchange into 15 resorts.
> 
> 2. The new Hyatt points-based program has zero resale value and can only be purchased from the developer.  You can exchange into 9 resorts, all but one are part of those 15 resorts in the old system.



Thanks for that. I read that the Hyatt properties are unique (I think that there are only 19 resorts). When I view Hyatt resales, how can I spot if someone is trying to resell the new points based program to me? When I look at the timeshares for sale, I'm never sure what is being offered


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## AJCts411 (Jan 10, 2022)

enox5 said:


> Thanks for that. I read that the Hyatt properties are unique (I think that there are only 19 resorts). When I view Hyatt resales, how can I spot if someone is trying to resell the new points based program to me? When I look at the timeshares for sale, I'm never sure what is being offered



Resale weeks have a deeded week. You are buying a week at that resort which have points assigned to them.   The points, you are buying points in a pool of underlying weeks, most say and I agree...run away.  

I would suggest that many of the Hyatt legacy week owners bought for the location and season use over the attached points and the system


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## charlieth0 (Mar 2, 2022)

alameda94501 said:


> Thanks, Sapper.
> 
> Yes, it's truly hard to listen to the salesperson tell you that the removal of the conversion fee is evidence that "Marriott's customer focused" and that "Marriott will continue to reduce fees", when Hyatt sets all the rules themselves in a secret, dark cave shut off from all communication / social media.
> 
> ...


HRC Aspen is really nice.  Top notch furnishing with spacious living/dining areas.  [just based on one visit as guest in off season.]


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## RunCat (Mar 3, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> I personally don't see the value in it yet. I do think there may come a day when I will either feel like I need to sell my weeks or buy into HPP.



FWIW, I own a number of points with Welk.  Like many, Welk originally sold fixed/float weeks in Escondido & Palm Springs. When Welk expanded into Branson, Cabo, and the upgraded Mountain Villas in Escondido, those were only accessible via the "new" Platinum Points program.  This induced me, and most owners, to convert their ownership.  Northstar and Breckenridge were then added and are also only accessible via points (or possibly exchange).  I suspect something similar may occur with HPP. 



travelhacker said:


> Welk owned a large Kauai property. There were talks of that property being used for a new resort after Breckenridge was sold out. However, when Welk was sold to Hyatt, the Welk family kept the Kauai property.



My understanding is that Welk was planning to develop Kauai before Breckenridge.  However, Hawaiian artifacts were found on the property during excavation and the project was halted.  Development in Breckenridge was then accelerated.  It is understandable why MVC did not include this property in the purchase.


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## ResaleExpert (Mar 3, 2022)

alameda94501 said:


> It's been a while since our family fully explored Hyatt Portfolio Club (HPC) and so ... time for a "owner update" last weekend at our home resort!
> 
> Sales staff were fine and the general hybrid HPC presentation was the same.  But I did get some updates in the one-on-one after that might be helpful that show some changes:
> 
> ...



Documents from this lawsuit show Aspen with 207 unit weeks going to HPC; equivalent to 4 units for the 51 weeks.  Of course, these are likely the lower season weeks.  Good luck getting a trade.


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## ivywag (Mar 4, 2022)

alameda94501 said:


> Apologies, @boraxo - it at first seems so complex compared to legacy, that I did write a series of posts a while ago (https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/h...ction-how-the-hpc-affects-hrc-members.294333/).
> 
> But actually, the concept ends up being pretty simple.  In 2017 a new entity bought all the unsold property at nine Hyatt resorts including Aspen, and put all unit weeks in a big pool called the Portfolio.  This new entity (and all its members) still have to follow the same legacy HRC rules we do, but internally to them they can invent new rules on how to allocate the Portfolio inventory before it gets released into CUP for everyone, including us.
> 
> ...


Does anyone know if the off-season time allotted to each of these intervals is included in these weeks? Each unit has extra time attached. That could add additional availability if not already included.


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## travelhacker (Mar 4, 2022)

ivywag said:


> Does anyone know if the off-season time allotted to each of these intervals is included in these weeks? Each unit has extra time attached. That could add additional availability if not already included.


Yes, this includes the offseason. At one point I looked at the weeks that were conveyed to the trust and there are plenty of great weeks. I don't know that it included any super peak weeks like week 52, but there are weeks basically year round that would have their associated floating time (which includes the first couple of weeks of December, January, and the low season like April, May, October and November).


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## Mongoose (Mar 4, 2022)

What is the mix between Welk deeds and trust?  Do you think the deeds will go HRC and trust will go HPC?


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## travelhacker (Mar 4, 2022)

Mongoose said:


> What is the mix between Welk deeds and trust?  Do you think the deeds will go HRC and trust will go HPC?


My guess is that HPP developer purchases will be able to reserve Welk and Welk developer purchasers will be able to reserve HPP. 

My guess is that Welk week owners will have access to HRC via interval and vice versa.

We'll know soon!


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## ivywag (Mar 5, 2022)

Does Anyone know the restrictions on HPP resale points?  There are several allotments available on Redweek right now.  Actually, I thought that HPP points had to be sold through Hyatt so things must have changed.  I’d appreciate any info.


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## alameda94501 (Mar 6, 2022)

ivywag said:


> Does Anyone know the restrictions on HPP resale points?  There are several allotments available on Redweek right now.  Actually, I thought that HPP points had to be sold through Hyatt so things must have changed.  I’d appreciate any info.



Hi @ivywag - there's a chart I once posted on those restrictions for resale (which they call "NON-AUTHORIZE RESALE"):









						[HPC Contract Talk] Request List, Wait List, and Reservations - HRC vs HPC
					

This is part of a series of posts:  Click here for the Introduction Post Click here for the HRC and HPC Inventory Post Click here for the Annual Conversion Option Post  -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-  There are two pools of inventory now - an HRC pool and an HPC...




					tugbbs.com
				




While anyone can sell anything, my understanding speaking with some brokers is that no seller has been able to charge much for Hyatt Points in resale because of those restrictions.  Furthermore, all transactions ended in a Hyatt ROFR.  Which makes sense, if you're Hyatt you may as well spend $3/pt since you'll resell the next contract at $21/pt.  It definitely sounds like an inefficient market that gives Hyatt an enormous advantage in terms of "points as an investment" or "points for resale".


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## Mongoose (Apr 5, 2022)

alameda94501 said:


> It's been a while since our family fully explored Hyatt Portfolio Club (HPC) and so ... time for a "owner update" last weekend at our home resort!
> 
> Sales staff were fine and the general hybrid HPC presentation was the same.  But I did get some updates in the one-on-one after that might be helpful that show some changes:
> 
> ...


If I want to convert a Silver 1400 point unit to HPC, does it become 1400 HPC points.  What is the REAL advantage to doing this?


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## alameda94501 (Apr 5, 2022)

Mongoose said:


> If I want to convert a Silver 1400 point unit to HPC, does it become 1400 HPC points.  What is the REAL advantage to doing this?



If you are a Portfolio member, then unless you want to use your Silver deeded week, it always is advantageous to do the Annual Conversion to HPC, which is 1:1 - yes, you get 1400 HPC points.  Then you'll have access to the Portfolio ORP inventory (12mo-6mo) and Legacy CUP/LCUP inventory (6mo-0mo) and Portfolio inventory (6mo-0mo). 

If you don't use your Silver deeded week and don't use the Annual Conversion, you'll just have access to the Legacy CUP/LCUP inventory (6mo-0mo) and Portfolio inventory (6mo-0mo).


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## Mongoose (Apr 5, 2022)

alameda94501 said:


> If you are a Portfolio member, then unless you want to use your Silver deeded week, it always is advantageous to do the Annual Conversion to HPC, which is 1:1 - yes, you get 1400 HPC points.  Then you'll have access to the Portfolio ORP inventory (12mo-6mo) and Legacy CUP/LCUP inventory (6mo-0mo) and Portfolio inventory (6mo-0mo).
> 
> If you don't use your Silver deeded week and don't use the Annual Conversion, you'll just have access to the Legacy CUP/LCUP inventory (6mo-0mo) and Portfolio inventory (6mo-0mo).


Thank you Alameda.  I have been reading your posts and you are a real asset to this forum.  So I would have to purchase HPP from the developer and then could add my HRC to it each year?  In one sentence, what is the best advantage to HPC over HRC?


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## alameda94501 (Apr 5, 2022)

Mongoose said:


> Thank you Alameda.  I have been reading your posts and you are a real asset to this forum.  So I would have to purchase HPP from the developer and then could add my HRC to it each year?  In one sentence, what is the best advantage to HPC over HRC?



Let's start with the two biggest disadvantages:

1.  You're paying the developer and you cannot recoup any costs.  There is $0 resale value.

2.  The maintenance fees per point are very high.

The advantages are a few:

1.  For folks who do not use their deeded week, they've basically enhanced the points system.  Banking, borrowing, etc.

2.  The Portfolio ORP inventory (12mo-6mo) gets better every year, because Hyatt sales people are chipping away and adding more legacy/hybrid owners - who Annually Convert their week.

3.  Aspen.  The ironic reason for the lawsuit and termination of Hyatt there was that Portfolio purchased and owns a significant chunk of the unit-weeks in great seasons.  Nothing the legacy owners there have done diminishes that.


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## Mongoose (Apr 5, 2022)

alameda94501 said:


> Let's start with the two biggest disadvantages:
> 
> 1.  You're paying the developer and you cannot recoup any costs.  There is $0 resale value.
> 
> ...


Don't forget the MFs are higher with HPC.  What is the minimum buy in?


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## alameda94501 (Apr 5, 2022)

Mongoose said:


> Don't forget the MFs are higher with HPC.  What is the minimum buy in?



Good question...  something a few of us have been trying to figure out for ourselves.


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## GTLINZ (Apr 6, 2022)

alameda94501 said:


> Aspen.  The ironic reason for the lawsuit and termination of Hyatt there was that Portfolio purchased and owns a significant chunk of the unit-weeks in great seasons.  Nothing the legacy owners there have done diminishes that.



Interesting - i had not heard that. I assume Aspen did that to remove Hyatt ROFR and stop the buybacks? And does anyone know the percentage PP owns at Aspen?

If this is how it played out I could see why Sunset Harbor owners would want to pull out of Hyatt - assuming it is not too late


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## Mongoose (Apr 6, 2022)

GTLINZ said:


> Interesting - i had not heard that. I assume Aspen did that to remove Hyatt ROFR and stop the buybacks? And does anyone know the percentage PP owns at Aspen?
> 
> If this is how it played out I could see why Sunset Harbor owners would want to pull out of Hyatt - assuming it is not too late


My understanding is that it came down to fees and they cut costs by half by dropping Hyatt.


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## travelhacker (Apr 6, 2022)

Mongoose said:


> My understanding is that it came down to fees and they cut costs by half by dropping Hyatt.


It was about 10%, of the amount that was Hyatt specific expenses (like Club Dues), it was something like 5-7% percent.


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## ScoopKona (Apr 6, 2022)

I skimmed the thread and did not find anything about Interval.

Another use for 1400 points is a two-bedroom week anywhere in Interval, a one-bedroom and a studio week, or three studio weeks. With 100 points left over for something later.


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## alameda94501 (Apr 6, 2022)

GTLINZ said:


> Interesting - i had not heard that. I assume Aspen did that to remove Hyatt ROFR and stop the buybacks? And does anyone know the percentage PP owns at Aspen?
> 
> If this is how it played out I could see why Sunset Harbor owners would want to pull out of Hyatt - assuming it is not too late



Hi @GTLINZ the unit weeks they own at Aspen are attached.  Quite a lot of diamond weeks. 

As to "why", it's hard to predict the Aspen association.  Unlike many of us, they paid full price to the Developer, up to $350k, so they are more possessive of their 'real estate transaction'.  Rumors are they even pay their association president a six digit salary. 

What I've heard is they noticed that their inventory 'dried up' after Portfolio purchased all those unit weeks.  I've mentioned before this is because they likely had excess CUP inventory because of unsold fractionals, that the Developer would let go into CUP.  So when the Developer could sell all their unsold inventory to Portfolio, they could finally get out - ending in zero excess CUP inventory.  They then led the association into a legal battle where I believe Hyatt was successful in not only having the case dismissed without any merit, but also got the association to pay Hyatt's legal fees.  Ouch.

Stopping Hyatt ROFR is one of the results of leaving Hyatt, but I don't think that does anything to help current owners' property 'values'.  In fact, I think it allows properties to be swapped at a lower value. 

The Aspen owners still have the Portfolio (and Legacy, at 6mo-0mo) 'riffraff' able to get into their resort in these unit weeks, but they have no exchange rights to go into Hyatt.  So they're back to the ancient model of "use your timeshare or lose it" (which might suit some of them just fine) otherwise they are on their own to rent/exchange.


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## GTLINZ (Apr 7, 2022)

alameda94501 said:


> Stopping Hyatt ROFR is one of the results of leaving Hyatt, but I don't think that does anything to help current owners' property 'values'.  In fact, I think it allows properties to be swapped at a lower value.



That is a lot of inventory.

It may not have helped their current situation, but at least stopping ROFR stopped the further erosion of inventory, and ultimately control.  As mentioned, it has negative impacts also but I can understand wanting to stop the bleeding.


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## Tucsonadventurer (Apr 7, 2022)

Portfolio inventory is not great right now at coveted resorts such as Hawaii, Carmel. I love my 3 resale units which I use only for exchanges as I can recoup what I paid for it at any time.


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## alameda94501 (Apr 7, 2022)

GTLINZ said:


> That is a lot of inventory.
> 
> It may not have helped their current situation, but at least stopping ROFR stopped the further erosion of inventory, and ultimately control.  As mentioned, it has negative impacts also but I can understand wanting to stop the bleeding.



Ah, now I gotcha - yes an ROFR gives Hyatt an opportunity to snap up another unit into the "riffraff".  

In fact, I've heard that even pre-2017 before Portfolio, Aspen went to the trouble of creating an super-internal exchange so that Aspen owners could swap weeks amongst themselves without allowing it go to CUP, again keeping us riffraff out.  Doesn't sound like my kind of community, but then again I could never pay $350,000 for a timeshare/fractional.


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## GTLINZ (Apr 7, 2022)

alameda94501 said:


> Ah, now I gotcha - yes an ROFR gives Hyatt an opportunity to snap up another unit into the "riffraff".



Exactly.  Aspen is different from a traditional weeks timeshare - but ROFR is an advantage for Hyatt.

Taking that a step further, you have Sunset Harbor. The location is so unique, the demand so high, and the HRPP usage so common that I could imagine the owners wanting to remove the ROFR by kicking out Hyatt (in addition to cost reasons).  "Herding cats" is always a difficult proposition - but if it could happen at any Hyatt location, it would be that one.

Hoping to hear some HSH owners take on this.  I did see another post on the topic of removing Hyatt from HSH.


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## ivywag (Apr 7, 2022)

alameda94501 said:


> Hi @GTLINZ the unit weeks they own at Aspen are attached.  Quite a lot of diamond weeks.
> 
> As to "why", it's hard to predict the Aspen association.  Unlike many of us, they paid full price to the Developer, up to $350k, so they are more possessive of their 'real estate transaction'.  Rumors are they even pay their association president a six digit salary.
> 
> ...


Also, remember that each one of these weeks comes with an extra 10 days of usage so I believe that there’s even more in the HRC than is listed. I know that there are rules that govern when the extra days can be used, but can’t remember exactly what they are. There is a limit on how much Mountain Season time can be reserved by each owner.


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## Mongoose (Apr 8, 2022)

GTLINZ said:


> Exactly.  Aspen is different from a traditional weeks timeshare - but ROFR is an advantage for Hyatt.


Timeshares are like Casinos.  The house always wins!


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## amilosla (Apr 11, 2022)

GTLINZ said:


> Exactly.  Aspen is different from a traditional weeks timeshare - but ROFR is an advantage for Hyatt.
> 
> Taking that a step further, you have Sunset Harbor. The location is so unique, the demand so high, and the HRPP usage so common that I could imagine the owners wanting to remove the ROFR by kicking out Hyatt (in addition to cost reasons).  "Herding cats" is always a difficult proposition - but if it could happen at any Hyatt location, it would be that one.
> 
> Hoping to hear some HSH owners take on this.  I did see another post on the topic of removing Hyatt from HSH.


I have 2000 point at Hyatt Sedona. They offered me to convert those points into new Hyatt Portfolio plus buy 700 points. For this they want $15K. Does it make sense?


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## alameda94501 (Apr 11, 2022)

amilosla said:


> I have 2000 point at Hyatt Sedona. They offered me to convert those points into new Hyatt Portfolio plus buy 700 points. For this they want $15K. Does it make sense?



Calculate the amount of maintenance fees that you currently pay, and then calculate the amount of maintenance fees that you would pay with their arrangement with Portfolio.


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## Mongoose (Apr 11, 2022)

amilosla said:


> I have 2000 point at Hyatt Sedona. They offered me to convert those points into new Hyatt Portfolio plus buy 700 points. For this they want $15K. Does it make sense?


No.  Just look at the other posts in TUG that address available weeks per resort.  There are basically only three resorts that have more than 200 weeks available.  Sedona has less than 100. The odds of you getting what you want are not great.  Plus you currently have the lowest MFs. You will see a substantial increase in costs, probably 35-40%.


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## Mongoose (Apr 11, 2022)

Good thread on available weeks. https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/h...hrc-and-hpc-inventory-as-of-june-2019.294334/


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