# Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana and Marriott Ownerships



## SueDonJ

All "official" indications via Marriott Vacations Worldwide Investor Calls have been that following Vistana coming under the MVW umbrella, there will be some type of Vistana/Marriott timeshare integration with reciprocal usage benefits. Sales reps have been mentioning it for quite some time but lately it appears to be ramped up with some sales presentations including written presentation material. It is important to note that until MVW/Vistana executive-level communications are distributed to all owners/members, nothing that is said during a sales presentation can be taken as official notice. (If history repeats, based on how the Destination Club points program was introduced to Marriott owners at the time, there will be changes made to the owners' websites on the release date and then emails/snail mail will follow.)

With more and more info making its way out of sales presentations, it's time to focus TUG's efforts to consolidate all of the available tidbits so that the many, many participants here who own Vistana and Marriott timeshares won't have to dig through thread after thread after thread (and thank you to @dioxide45 for suggesting it!)

This thread will serve as the Marriott forum's catch-all from this point forward, and I'm sending a link to Denise so she knows what's happening on this board. Please feel free to share, discuss, speculate until the cows come home. Except, please try to limit duplicate posts as much as possible. Instead of posting the same info on both forums, maybe post in your forum of choice and then drop a link to your post in the other forum? We'll do our best to keep some semblance of order so that all of us who are impacted can make sense of things.

Good luck to all of us!


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## JIMinNC

_Before I saw this thread, I had posted my thoughts on the recent round of rumors in the thread on this topic on the Vistana forum that was mentioned in the weekly TUG email newsletter today. While we are trying to consolidate, I think what I wrote there fits here as well, so while I will not duplicate any other posts, I do think it makes sense to add that one post here to start the discussion. Hopefully that's OK, but if not, Susan and/or Denise can adjust as necessary. Below is a link to that Vistana thread, followed by what I wrote there:_

https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/vistana-will-finally-integrate-with-mvci-on-june-1st.331769/

I haven't engaged much in the recent Marriott/Vistana integration speculation because it seemed to be just that - rampant speculation and spin by Sales. This recent round feels different to me, though, and seems more credible for the following reasons:

1) The reported timing is generally consistent with what Executive Management has disclosed in their investor/earnings presentations
2) It seems we have now had multiple reports that have said basically the same thing
3) Most of those reports have come from the Vistana side of the integration. If these latest rumors are true, the Vistana reps are now selling a product that will soon sunset (as far as new sales are concerned), so it makes sense that they have been briefed at a high level what the new product will look like so they can adapt their sales presentation to let prospects know that while they are buying FlexOptions today, those will eventually convert to Destination Points on some basis.

So, while I agree that anything you hear at a sales presentation needs to be taken with a large grain of salt, this latest round may actually be our first meaningful clues as to what the eventual integration will look like. Of course, it could also turn out to be just more B.S. (Bountiful Speculation - thanks @davidvel for the acronym), but this does feel different to me.


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## jmhpsu93

This is a great idea - should be a sticky.


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## dioxide45

jmhpsu93 said:


> This is a great idea - should be a sticky.


It sounds good in theory, but I would actually disagree. No one looks at stickies. They bypass them and just look at the rest of the posts in the main forum.


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## bogey21

I think one thing is certain and that is Marriott will figure out how to gin more revenue out of whatever they do...

George


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## Ken555

Good. Let’s keep all the fiction in one place for now. Thanks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45

Will there be a similar single "official" thread in the Vistana forum for discussion over there? There are certainly difference in how this could impact Vistana owners and we see just as many 'I got great new" threads from timeshare presentations over in that forum.


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## suzannesimon

You can be sure that whatever it is, it won’t be free.  I see a lot of Facebook posts from new owners asking where on the Vistana (or Marriott) website do they go to book those resorts.


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## dhstache

Will probably be a new "program" with a fee to join and be able to access what's called "Common Currency". Would prefer the word "integration" not be used as  full integration or merger will not happen per MVW Exec words (aka, no changes or consolidation of the separate land trusts). The brands, ownership process, benefits, and points systems will remain in place. MVW has indicated the new program will be for Points owners only, Deeded Week owners will continue thru Interval. Also indications that Vistana to MVC will be a higher "common currency conversion" than MVC to Vistana. Common Currency program will only be between MVC, Westin, and Sheraton VCs (not other MVW brands and not sure about the couple of "Vistana" named resorts, which are contract relationships with MVW).


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## Eric B

dhstache said:


> ... Vistana to MVC will be a higher "common currency conversion" than MVC to Vistana.



Interesting thought.  I kind of wonder how much Vistana availability will go to MVC if that's the case as it would disincentivize Vistana owners from exchanging into MVC.  Could be the availability would be from developer-owned inventory, but then it would be the developer losing out on the exchange rate difference.  TANSTAAFL, after all.


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## JIMinNC

dhstache said:


> Will probably be a new "program" with a fee to join and be able to access what's called "Common Currency". Would prefer the word "integration" not be used as  full integration or merger will not happen per MVW Exec words (aka, no changes or consolidation of the separate land trusts). The brands, ownership process, benefits, and points systems will remain in place. MVW has indicated the new program will be for Points owners only, Deeded Week owners will continue thru Interval. Also indications that Vistana to MVC will be a higher "common currency conversion" than MVC to Vistana. Common Currency program will only be between MVC, Westin, and Sheraton VCs (not other MVW brands and not sure about the couple of "Vistana" named resorts, which are contract relationships with MVW).



Might be true, but MVW executive management has also spoken of a two-phase integration - 1) a Common Points Currency, and 2) a Common Points Product that would eventually be sold at all Marriott/Westin/Sheraton locations. Given that the timeline for the integration has been stretched out due to the impacts of the pandemic, it is possible they used the time to blend the two-phases into one transition, but that's only speculation, and is mainly based on the rumors coming out of recent sales presentations that have stated that after the transition, only one points product will be sold. Only time will tell on that.

But even if they DO transition to a single product for all new sales, the existing legacy systems will likely continue more or less as is (i.e. legacy Vistana and Marriott owners won't be forced to give up their current system, and could use their existing ownership as they have been doing), but legacy owners may have to pay a fee or make a purchase to upgrade their ownership to the new product/exchange program.


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## Norcal5

This is such a bummer.  Zero advantage to Marriott owners.  Big win for Vistana.  There is not a single resort I’m interested in on the Vistana side. Is anyone else feeling like we points owners are going to be losing out?


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## VacationForever

Norcal5 said:


> This is such a bummer.  Zero advantage to Marriott owners.  Big win for Vistana.  There is not a single resort I’m interested in on the Vistana side. Is anyone else feeling like we points owners are going to be losing out?


I also prefer MVC resorts although I own both Vistana and MVC and there are just a couple of Vistana resorts which we enjoy.  Having said that, until I see the details of the integration, I don't believe it will be truly one system.  I believe it will act more like the Wyndham-Worldmark-Shell model where owners only get to cross book at at shorter timeframe, like at 8 months.


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## Ken555

Norcal5 said:


> This is such a bummer. Zero advantage to Marriott owners. Big win for Vistana. There is not a single resort I’m interested in on the Vistana side. Is anyone else feeling like we points owners are going to be losing out?



Those of us who didn’t want the integration at all on the Vistana side are losing out since many Marriott owners (other than yourself) seem to want to trade to the nice Westin resorts. We think it’s a big win for Marriott, and very few advantages to Vistana.

We are concerned we won’t be able to trade in as easily as have been able to for many years. I have no intention of trading into Marriott units using my Vistana StarOptions…up until now I’ve been able to trade into Marriotts just fine via Interval using my less expensive SDO weeks…why would I pay more for less?

Of course, I won’t believe anything until it’s official.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## alexadeparis

The only thing I wonder is if we will be able as Vistana owners to convert to MVC points and then sell those points in the rental pool. Due to personal circumstances, it doesn't seem like I will be doing too much traveling in the coming years - it would be nice if I could break even on MF costs out vs. Rental fees in. I am not looking to make money - just mitigate my losses.


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## SueDonJ

Norcal5 said:


> This is such a bummer.  Zero advantage to Marriott owners.  Big win for Vistana.  There is not a single resort I’m interested in on the Vistana side. Is anyone else feeling like we points owners are going to be losing out?



I have no idea what's coming so can't form an opinion now about whether it will be more advantageous for Marriott or Vistana owners, or, whether it'll work well with my particular Marriott ownership or not. I still think the easiest (relatively) thing they can do that will benefit all owners is to allow Vistana owners/members to become Destination Club members in the same way that Marriott owners are allowed, i.e. an additional usage option to elect Destination Club Exchange Points annually that would be subject to the same DC rules and processes that we Marriott DC members are subject to. But my guess as to what they will do is only as good as anyone else's.


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## JIMinNC

Norcal5 said:


> This is such a bummer.  Zero advantage to Marriott owners.  Big win for Vistana.  There is not a single resort I’m interested in on the Vistana side. Is anyone else feeling like we points owners are going to be losing out?



I feel very differently, as there are several Vistana resorts I would like to visit if and when we can use Destination Points. My top targets would be:

- Westin Los Cabos (have stayed here before on a Vistana preview package, and thought is was a great place)
- The Maui Westins as an even year alternative/change of pace from our odd year Marriott's Maui Ocean Club ownership
- Westin St. John
- Sheraton PGA for golf

I also would probably consider the Palm Desert Westins as occasional alternatives to the Marriott Desert Springs resort.

While I agree Marriott adds a wider variety of new locations for legacy Vistana owners than Marriott owners get from Vistana, for us there is still significant value in the integration.


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## Norcal5

JIMinNC said:


> I feel very differently, as there are several Vistana resorts I would like to visit if and when we can use Destination Points. My top targets would be:
> 
> - Westin Los Cabos (have stayed here before on a Vistana preview package, and thought is was a great place)
> - The Maui Westins as an even year alternative/change of pace from our odd year Marriott's Maui Ocean Club ownership
> - Westin St. John
> - Sheraton PGA for golf
> 
> I also would probably consider the Palm Desert Westins as occasional alternatives to the Marriott Desert Springs resort.
> 
> While I agree Marriott adds a wider variety of new locations for legacy Vistana owners than Marriott owners get from Vistana, for us there is still significant value in the integration.


I’m glad to hear you enjoyed the Westin Los Cabos.  Now that would be nice.  Thank you for bringing it up.


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## suzannesimon

I own Marriotts, Vistana’s and a Hyatt week. Since I have access to all 3, I would prefer the status quo. I hear the same thing from both Vistana and Marriott owners. Vistana thinks they are losing out, that Marriott owners will take all the Vistana weeks because they are so much better than Marriotts. Marriott owners think the opposite. I’m not worried since I rarely use any weeks other than my owned weeks anyway, but there are more Westin’s I would like to try than Marriotts. They are just a hair superior in my opinion over Marriott especially in the service area.


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## Steve Fatula

I am just hoping for DC points created II deposits, I don't lose the ability to exchange those into Vistana. Right now, you can't use them for Marriott, hopefully that stays the same.


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## Dean

I don't think any of us truly know what to expect other than some major big picture principles.  None of what I'll say is different than I've said before.  For me personally I see no real addition to the options that I will likely use other than possibly to increased volume, mostly for Maui.  The places where there are truly differences don't interest me, others will feel differently.  I truly expect some type of overlay at this point and possibly a direct integration with the DC system at some point.  I think it's likely the highest levels of MVC will have access to whatever comes out up front, I'm not so sure about the same being true for the other systems, we'll see.  Some were concerned about increased competition for Orlando getaways with DVC coming back to II.  Increased competition for the top options ia a major risk with whatever final product is instituted.  

Steve I think it's likely that one will ultimately lose that option with points based deposits but not weeks based ones.


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## Sicnarf

dhstache said:


> Will probably be a new "program" with a fee to join and be able to access what's called "Common Currency". Would prefer the word "integration" not be used as  full integration or merger will not happen per MVW Exec words (aka, no changes or consolidation of the separate land trusts). The brands, ownership process, benefits, and points systems will remain in place. MVW has indicated the new program will be for Points owners only, Deeded Week owners will continue thru Interval. Also indications that Vistana to MVC will be a higher "common currency conversion" than MVC to Vistana. Common Currency program will only be between MVC, Westin, and Sheraton VCs (not other MVW brands and not sure about the couple of "Vistana" named resorts, which are contract relationships with MVW).


According to a couple of Vistana sales presentations I attended the past 2 weeks:
1. there is no new program
2. Vistana owners will be able to convert their developer-purchased or qualified Vistana weeks and flex points to DC pointd based on a set exchange rate on an annual basis - no fee
3. Vistana elite owners will be granted the equivalent MVCI elite level - no fee
4. MVCI owners will able to book vistana properties using DC points based on a set echange rate - no fee
5. Vistana will only sell DC points starting June 1st or sooner


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## Sicnarf

SueDonJ said:


> I have no idea what's coming so can't form an opinion now about whether it will be more advantageous for Marriott or Vistana owners, or, whether it'll work well with my particular Marriott ownership or not. I still think the easiest (relatively) thing they can do that will benefit all owners is to allow Vistana owners/members to become Destination Club members in the same way that Marriott owners are allowed, i.e. an additional usage option to elect Destination Club Exchange Points annually that would be subject to the same DC rules and processes that we Marriott DC members are subject to. But my guess as to what they will do is only as good as anyone else's.


Yes, this is how it will be rolled out according to the 2 sales presentations I attended the past 2 weeks - no fees!


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## dioxide45

suzannesimon said:


> I own Marriotts, Vistana’s and a Hyatt week. Since I have access to all 3, I would prefer the status quo. I hear the same thing from both Vistana and Marriott owners. Vistana thinks they are losing out, that Marriott owners will take all the Vistana weeks because they are so much better than Marriotts. Marriott owners think the opposite. I’m not worried since I rarely use any weeks other than my owned weeks anyway, but there are more Westin’s I would like to try than Marriotts. They are just a hair superior in my opinion over Marriott especially in the service area.


I would agree. We own both Vistana and Marriott. We don't trade Vistana in II, so getting free exchanges wouldn't help us there. It would be nice to have a single annual fee instead of the $215 DC Fee plus the $215 we now pay in VSN fees for our two Vistana weeks. Outside of that, we already have access to both systems and I fear that StarOption availability will become scarce at resorts where Marriott may offer a big amount of DC points. Think Maui mainly.


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## DanCali

alexadeparis said:


> The only thing I wonder is if we will be able as Vistana owners to convert to MVC points and then sell those points in the rental pool. Due to personal circumstances, it doesn't seem like I will be doing too much traveling in the coming years - it would be nice if I could break even on MF costs out vs. Rental fees in. I am not looking to make money - just mitigate my losses.



Even if you could rent points, I wouldn't count on point rental to be better than actually renting your Vistana weeks.


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## DanCali

Ken555 said:


> Those of us who didn’t want the integration at all on the Vistana side are losing out since many Marriott owners (other than yourself) seem to want to trade to the nice Westin resorts. We think it’s a big win for Marriott, and very few advantages to Vistana.
> 
> We are concerned we won’t be able to trade in as easily as have been able to for many years. I have no intention of trading into Marriott units using my Vistana StarOptions…up until now I’ve been able to trade into Marriotts just fine via Interval using my less expensive SDO weeks…why would I pay more for less?
> 
> Of course, I won’t believe anything until it’s official.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



If I envision this working as an exchange system, in which case the only way Marriott owners would be able to trade into Vistana is if Vistana owners choose to convert their weeks to DC points. If that happens though, it means that Vistana owners are converting weeks to DC points because they see a benefit in doing that, so it'd be premature to say there are "very few advantages to Vistana." There may be advantages to some owners (those who use the DC points system will be doing it voluntarily).

Marriott has treated Hawaii weeks much better than other weeks and if they do that with Vistana, I can certainly envision WKORV/N owners trading for points, potentially making that inventory less accessible to Scottsdale and Orlando Vistana owners. On the other hand, if those WKORV/N owners were just using their weeks as home resort stays, rather than trading with Staroptions, we never really had access to that inventory to begin with. How Vistana will change really depends on how people's usage behaviors change.

Fortunately, I own at places with a high rental value. If I don't use my week and I can rent a 2BR WKV for $4000-$4500 it'd take about 6000 DC points to make it worth it for me to give up that option and convert it to points. Otherwise, I will just rent it out and rent as many points as I need from others (which is pretty much where I am with my Marriott weeks also). Given that very few weeks in the Marriott system get even 5000 points, I'm not holding my breath...

I suspect converting to DC points will be a convenient option for owners of weeks that will get treated more generously and for owners who prefer convenience over the hassle of renting. It is very convenient to use a points system and access to 60+ new high-quality resorts would be an attractive proposition to many.


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## Ken555

DanCali said:


> If I envision this working as an exchange system, in which case the only way Marriott owners would be able to trade into Vistana is if Vistana owners choose to convert their weeks to DC points. If that happens though, it means that Vistana owners are converting weeks to DC points because they see a benefit in doing that, so it'd be premature to say there are "very few advantages to Vistana." There may be advantages to some owners (those who use the DC points system will be doing it voluntarily).
> 
> Marriott has treated Hawaii weeks much better than other weeks and if they do that with Vistana, I can certainly envision WKORV/N owners trading for points, potentially making that inventory less accessible to Scottsdale and Orlando Vistana owners. On the other hand, if those WKORV/N owners were just using their weeks as home resort stays, rather than trading with Staroptions, we never really had access to that inventory to begin with. How Vistana will change really depends on how people's usage behaviors change.
> 
> Fortunately, I own at places with a high rental value. If I don't use my week and I can rent a 2BR WKV for $4000-$4500 it'd take about 6000 DC points to make it worth it for me to give up that option and convert it to points. Otherwise, I will just rent it out and rent as many points as I need from others (which is pretty much where I am with my Marriott weeks also). Given that very few weeks in the Marriott system get even 5000 points, I'm not holding my breath...
> 
> I suspect converting to DC points will be a convenient option for owners of weeks that will get treated more generously and for owners who prefer convenience over the hassle of renting. It is very convenient to use a points system and access to 60+ new high-quality resorts would be an attractive proposition to many.



Please don’t take this the wrong way, but what you just posted is what we have discussed for well over a dozen years on TUG regarding how and if an integration between Marriott and SVN/VSN would work. I’m just waiting for them to announce the system, and am not wasting much time thinking about what may be.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mowogo

DanCali said:


> Marriott has treated Hawaii weeks much better than other weeks and if they do that with Vistana, I can certainly envision WKORV/N owners trading for points, potentially making that inventory less accessible to Scottsdale and Orlando Vistana owners. On the other hand, if those WKORV/N owners were just using their weeks as home resort stays, rather than trading with Staroptions, we never really had access to that inventory to begin with. How Vistana will change really depends on how people's usage behaviors change.


The main change that is guaranteed to happen with Vistana will be the slow bleeding of inventory from VSN as inventory shifts to trading in the common currency and more voluntary intervals are dropped from the program.  The rate will likely depend on how easy they make it for owners to access the common currency, but VSN is never going to have more inventory available than it does today.


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## Dean

Mowogo said:


> The main change that is guaranteed to happen with Vistana will be the slow bleeding of inventory from VSN as inventory shifts to trading in the common currency and more voluntary intervals are dropped from the program.  The rate will likely depend on how easy they make it for owners to access the common currency, but VSN is never going to have more inventory available than it does today.


There would be a corresponding decrease in competition but like any points system there is inherently more competition during the highest demand times and relatively less at other times.


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## Dean

Talked to my MVC sales contact this morning.  He says an integrated product is coming second quarter and they expect training and direct information in a few weeks.


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## Bill R

I'm a Westin owner.  The sales person at our owner's update "encore" at Westin Los Cabos this week went over this at a high level, but mostly to tell us that our Vistana 4 star elite will transfer to Marriott Titanium rather than the Gold it is now.  There were some "points" equivalents on the sheet (ha ha) he showed us - I recall 10-15,000? - but when I asked what that was, he said "ignore that".  Hmmm
We own St. John and Maui and St. John is already really hard to get into, even for owners.  The Interval process is a pain and we have not been able to make that work for us, and we have "eyed" some of the Marriott VC properties, like Marbella, and Kauai, and some other Caribbean locations.  Vistana messed up for the Princeville property on Kauai when they let the St. Regis hotel "get away", as it was the best part of the Princeville resort, being able to go to the St. Regis for the day on their beach!  And although it needed updating, that St. Regis (or whatever it will be next) has the one of the best locations of anyplace I have ever been, on Hanalei Bay.  That was a really dumb Marriott decision, IMO.  Anyway, we are pretty happy with the Westin locations but definitely interesting in others!   We bought because we love Hawaii, although they (the State, and the Westin) have let the pandemic throw them for a loop.  I think the manager of WKORN should be fired.

My impression from our very nice and maybe too honest Los Cabos sales person is that the time shares sales have been VERY hurt by the pandemic, and they are offering a lot for folks to buy SOMETHING!  We'd like to see some kind of usable - other than Interval - exchange and reservation system to "trade" into Marriott VC properties.  And I will admit that Vistana's system is not always easy to understand and use...


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## lorenmd

we just completed an update at the marriott which we do not own. we are vistana owners.  he said it is projected to be announced end of april.  marriott and vistana properties will no longer be in II, but their own internal system.  Disney will fill that hole and will now trade in II.  the one thing he said which i don't believe is that the only way for us to get into marriott DC points is to buy marriott points even 1000 of them.  he does not believe that we will automatically have access to DC points for a small annual fee but i hope he is wrong. he also said it is voluntary. one year i can convert to DC points and one year i can use my star options as always.   so the big question for me is, can i convert two of my non owner weeks to in the network for a set amount of new money. and will there be a fee to join marriott DC points.  next week we are at our home resort SDO and we will see how they present it.  i am looking forward to having access to all the marriott properties especially at the 60 day mark. and he did say my MF will be less than if i had them all converted to DC points permanently.  he said i wouldn't want to do that. MF with DC points is much higher.


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## jwalk03

lorenmd said:


> we just completed an update at the marriott which we do not own. we are vistana owners.  he said it is projected to be announced end of april.  marriott and vistana properties will no longer be in II, but their own internal system.  Disney will fill that hole and will now trade in II.  the one thing he said which i don't believe is that the only way for us to get into marriott DC points is to buy marriott points even 1000 of them.  he does not believe that we will automatically have access to DC points for a small annual fee but i hope he is wrong. he also said it is voluntary. one year i can convert to DC points and one year i can use my star options as always.   so the big question for me is, can i convert two of my non owner weeks to in the network for a set amount of new money. and will there be a fee to join marriott DC points.  next week we are at our home resort SDO and we will see how they present it.  i am looking forward to having access to all the marriott properties especially at the 60 day mark. and he did say my MF will be less than if i had them all converted to DC points permanently.  he said i wouldn't want to do that. MF with DC points is much higher.



no way in the world Marriott & Vistana are leaving II, such a common sales lie they have been using for years to try and get people to buy DC points instead of trading.


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## Eric B

lorenmd said:


> marriott and vistana properties will no longer be in II, but their own internal system.



Interesting thought that really would be a surprise if it came to pass.  Cutting Marriott and Vistana properties out of II, which is also owned by the same company, would hurt the income of the company by reducing the amount of exchange fees they get from Marriott and Vistana owners.  It would also hurt both Marriott and Vistana by reducing the flow of sales prospects from exchanges.  What could possibly be the motivation for a company to do that sort of thing?  Oh, it would also limit what they can do with underperforming inventory that would otherwise be bulk deposited with the exchanges.


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## VacationForever

Lies, lies and more lies..


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## ljmiii

lorenmd said:


> marriott and vistana properties will no longer be in II, but their own internal system...


To pick this lie out of the raft of others...

Through ILG, II is owned by Marriott Vacations Worldwide. Why would they want to shoot themselves in the foot? And even if they did leave II...so what?!? Weeks owners would still own their weeks and can use, rent, or trade them as they wish. If II was no longer willing to trade Marriott and Vistana weeks, we would all decamp to one of the other timeshare exchange companies (e.g. SFX) that would be more than happy to take us.


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## SandyPGravel

I can't wait to turn down my owner's update in March.


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## dioxide45

lorenmd said:


> we just completed an update at the marriott which we do not own. we are vistana owners.  he said it is projected to be announced end of april.  *marriott and vistana properties will no longer be in II, but their own internal system.  *Disney will fill that hole and will now trade in II.  the one thing he said which i don't believe is that the only way for us to get into marriott DC points is to buy marriott points even 1000 of them.  he does not believe that we will automatically have access to DC points for a small annual fee but i hope he is wrong. he also said it is voluntary. one year i can convert to DC points and one year i can use my star options as always.   so the big question for me is, can i convert two of my non owner weeks to in the network for a set amount of new money. and will there be a fee to join marriott DC points.  next week we are at our home resort SDO and we will see how they present it.  i am looking forward to having access to all the marriott properties especially at the 60 day mark. and he did say my MF will be less than if i had them all converted to DC points permanently.  he said i wouldn't want to do that. MF with DC points is much higher.


We heard this line after Marriott rolled out DC. How Marriott would no longer deposit weeks to II and how Marriott inventory would dry up in II. Has it happened? No, not really. Sure there have been some changes in deposit patterns and the number of weeks Marriott deposits, but for the most part people are still getting Marriott exchanges. Also, most of the people that bought resale post June 2010 have II as their only real exchange option. Another thing to remember, that while the number of deposits into II go down the number of people seeking deposits also goes down by the same amount.

We will continue to see Marriott and Vistana weeks available in II for years to come. That said, Vistana availability in II has definitely changed over the years. Mostly after Vistana started to allow StarOption banking and borrowing.


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## Bird01

Sicnarf said:


> According to a couple of Vistana sales presentations I attended the past 2 weeks:
> 1. there is no new program
> 2. Vistana owners will be able to convert their developer-purchased or qualified Vistana weeks and flex points to DC pointd based on a set exchange rate on an annual basis - no fee
> 3. Vistana elite owners will be granted the equivalent MVCI elite level - no fee
> 4. MVCI owners will able to book vistana properties using DC points based on a set echange rate - no fee
> 5. Vistana will only sell DC points starting June 1st or sooner


Does Vistana know the common currency yet conversion ratios yet. I just attended a Vistana presentation where they offered enough Westin Flex + enrolling options to make me a Chairman's Club on the MVC side (Elite 5 on Vistana side). Can they actually "promise" that or is that just a sales pitch?


----------



## Ken555

Bird01 said:


> Does Vistana know the common currency yet conversion ratios yet. I just attended a Vistana presentation where they offered enough Westin Flex + enrolling options to make me a Chairman's Club on the MVC side (Elite 5 on Vistana side). Can they actually "promise" that or is that just a sales pitch?



If it’s not in writing, you know the answer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45

Bird01 said:


> Does Vistana know the common currency yet conversion ratios yet. I just attended a Vistana presentation where they offered enough Westin Flex + enrolling options to make me a Chairman's Club on the MVC side (Elite 5 on Vistana side). Can they actually "promise" that or is that just a sales pitch?


They haven't confirmed, but numbers thrown around here from sales presentation speculation are;
*Westin Flex* 28:1
*Sheraton Flex* 32:1
*Westing Aventuras* ???
*All the Other HomeOption Programs (Nanea, WSJ) *???


----------



## Bird01

dioxide45 said:


> They haven't confirmed, but numbers thrown around here from sales presentation speculation are;
> *Westin Flex* 28:1
> *Sheraton Flex* 32:1
> *Westing Aventuras* ???
> *All the Other HomeOption Programs (Nanea, WSJ) *???


Thank you. First #'s I've seen. My concern is after the conversion that the DC Points won't reserve a full week (7 days) at my resorts. I believe that happened to some Marriott owners back in 2010 or so.


----------



## dioxide45

Bird01 said:


> Thank you. First #'s I've seen. My concern is after the conversion that the DC Points won't reserve a full week (7 days) at my resorts. I believe that happened to some Marriott owners back in 2010 or so.


That is very possible, that is why you would continue to use your week to book your home resort. StarOptions and VSN also won't go away. You will still be able to use it just as you would today. The concern though is that if Marriott offers a lot of DC points to certain Vistana weeks (Hawaii), they may be more likely to convert their weeks to DC points leaving less available inventory to book in VSN.


----------



## rog2867

Norcal5 said:


> This is such a bummer.  Zero advantage to Marriott owners.  Big win for Vistana.  There is not a single resort I’m interested in on the Vistana side. Is anyone else feeling like we points owners are going to be losing out?


Not a single resort in the whole collection?  No Hawaii, no St. John,  Bahamas, Mexico?


----------



## suzannesimon

Norcal5 said:


> This is such a bummer.  Zero advantage to Marriott owners.  Big win for Vistana.  There is not a single resort I’m interested in on the Vistana side. Is anyone else feeling like we points owners are going to be losing out?


I’ve found the Westins to be slightly better resorts than the Marriotts. I have both but gravitate to the Westin resorts more frequently.


----------



## Dean

rog2867 said:


> Not a single resort in the whole collection?  No Hawaii, no St. John,  Bahamas, Mexico?


As I've said before, I don't think Westin/Vistana brings anything to the table for me.  We wouldn't go to St. John or Atlantis and don't plan to return to MX.  They do add volume for Maui only IMO (for us) but that is not worth extra competition in my view.  Hyatt would be another matter but that doesn't appear to be on the table at the present time.  MVC potentially adds a lot more to the other side but ultimately it depends on how a crossover or combined product flushes out.  I'll wait and see but be skeptical though being Chairman's Club I suspect I'll be in a better position than most to take advantage of any options going forward.


----------



## THSMTHS

We own deeded weeks in both systems. Marriott deeded weeks loose value when converted to points. They loose value a second time converting into II's point system. We purchased high season, for trading power. (Blue in the II book) To me, it doesn't make any sense to settle for less then what was purchased. The way to do that, is deposit weeks instead of points into II to trade. Since 1992 we have only had 2 bad II trades. There are some wonderful resorts out there that do not belong to Marriott or Vistana. At this time it is unlikely we would trade our Westin Nanae weeks for anything outside of Vistana, but time will tell. It will be interesting to see how everything might be laid out between the two consortium's. I am hoping that everyone will not be in the same pot, at the same time for accessing both resort groups, as we bought both Marriott and Vistana resorts for different reasons. That being said, I am probably being overly optimistic.


----------



## dneveu

We attended a timeshare presentation this weekend in dessert springs CA. We chose the $250 visa gift card option,  Presentation was low key and nice discussion.  At  40 minutes when asked if we wanted to buy points and said no thank you the closer came in and we we wrapped up at 45 minutes. 

Sales manager said Vistana /Westin units will  all be in the points system by 6/30/22. We talked about some if those  properties.  There is no ETA for when Hyatt residence club (HRC)  units will be in system, although believes will happen in future and point levels for current tiers will go up then (+ grandfather current owners).   As HRC has fractional units like Ritz did and benefits at HRC currently are higher this made sense to us knowing history of Ritz and how tiers changed from original 3 to current 5 (after a ritz added).  We asked if any changes to Interval are being planned -  answer was no. No changes to interval (ie ability to deposit or trade).


----------



## CPNY

dneveu said:


> We attended a timeshare presentation this weekend in dessert springs CA. We chose the $250 visa gift card option,  Presentation was low key and nice discussion.  At  40 minutes when asked if we wanted to buy points and said no thank you the closer came in and we we wrapped up at 45 minutes.
> 
> Sales manager said Vistana /Westin units will  all be in the points system by 6/30/22. We talked about some if those  properties.  There is no ETA for when Hyatt residence club (HRC)  units will be in system, although believes will happen in future and point levels for current tiers will go up then (+ grandfather current owners).   As HRC has fractional units like Ritz did and benefits at HRC currently are higher this made sense to us knowing history of Ritz and how tiers changed from original 3 to current 5 (after a ritz added).  We asked if any changes to Interval are being planned -  answer was no. No changes to interval (ie ability to deposit or trade).


I though HRC would never be integrated into the Vistana/Marriott Vacation club universe, unless contracts are renegotiated. (@JIMinNC Fixed it)


----------



## JIMinNC

dneveu said:


> We attended a timeshare presentation this weekend in dessert springs CA. We chose the $250 visa gift card option,  Presentation was low key and nice discussion.  At  40 minutes when asked if we wanted to buy points and said no thank you the closer came in and we we wrapped up at 45 minutes.
> 
> Sales manager said Vistana /Westin units will  all be in the points system by 6/30/22. We talked about some if those  properties.  There is no ETA for when Hyatt residence club (HRC)  units will be in system, although believes will happen in future and point levels for current tiers will go up then (+ grandfather current owners).   As HRC has fractional units like Ritz did and benefits at HRC currently are higher this made sense to us knowing history of Ritz and how tiers changed from original 3 to current 5 (after a ritz added).  We asked if any changes to Interval are being planned -  answer was no. No changes to interval (ie ability to deposit or trade).



Actually, according to Marriott Vacations Worldwide's Executive Team during their investor presentations, the Hyatt HRC program is expressly prohibited from being integrated with Marriott/Westin/Sheraton by the licensing agreement with Hyatt Hotels, which retains all rights to the HRC brands. That is why MVW bought Welk Resorts and is rebranding them as Hyatt - to build out the Hyatt product that will likely always be managed separately from the Marriott/Westin/Sheraton branded network.

I guess "never" is a long time, because agreements can be renegotiated, but unless something major changes with Hyatt Hotels, there is no intention to ever integrate Hyatt.


----------



## Fasttr

Heard from a MGV pitchman via a virtual pitch that June 28th is the date for the new merged system to be kicked off.  Take that for what it’s worth, considering the source, but it was a random enough date that I figured I would toss it out there.


----------



## Marriottsrule

Fasttr said:


> Heard from a MGV pitchman via a virtual pitch that June 28th is the date for the new merged system to be kicked off.  Take that for what it’s worth, considering the source, but it was a random enough date that I figured I would toss it out there.


3/14


----------



## CPNY

Marriottsrule said:


> 3/14


Interesting. Care to divulge more? Unless of course you’re a Marriott mole and you’re here to stir the pot? Either way I’d be surprised since during the 4Q earnings call they said more would be announced in June


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> Either way I’d be surprised since during the 4Q earnings call they said more would be announced in June



Technically, they didn't say more would be "announced" in June. Here is the exact quote:

_"We also have a lot of new things we've been working on to grow our business long term, which we will discuss in more detail during our June 17 Investor Day. From launching a new unified product combining our Westin, Marriott, and Sheraton branded products into one new offering, to investing to provide more personalized experiences for our customer, to using data analytics in new and exciting ways to further enhance our business, we are in a great position to grow our company this year, and for many years to come."_
They said they would discuss some of the new things they've been working on, one of which was the unified product. That doesn't mean that's necessarily the announcement - that's when they will discuss how their new initiatives will help them grow their business. So, they still could publicly announce the program before that Investor Day, and then during that June presentation, provide Wall Street with more color on how they think that new program will impact their business strategically. Of course, they could also choose to announce it that day, or they could talk more about it but say the program details won't be rolled out until some future date.

Wall Street analysts are more interested in management's discussion of how new products and new programs will impact sales, expenses, earnings, etc. rather than the details of how the program will work for owners. So, I actually wouldn't expect that June 17 presentation to include the kind of details we are interested in. I would expect those details will come either before or after that day.


----------



## CPNY

JIMinNC said:


> Technically, they didn't say more would be "announced" in June. Here is the exact quote:
> 
> _"We also have a lot of new things we've been working on to grow our business long term, which we will discuss in more detail during our June 17 Investor Day. From launching a new unified product combining our Westin, Marriott, and Sheraton branded products into one new offering, to investing to provide more personalized experiences for our customer, to using data analytics in new and exciting ways to further enhance our business, we are in a great position to grow our company this year, and for many years to come."_
> They said they would discuss some of the new things they've been working on, one of which was the unified product. That doesn't mean that's necessarily the announcement - that's when they will discuss how their new initiatives will help them grow their business. So, they still could publicly announce the program before that Investor Day, and then during that June presentation, provide Wall Street with more color on how they think that new program will impact their business strategically. Of course, they could also choose to announce it that day, or they could talk more about it but say the program details won't be rolled out until some future date.
> 
> Wall Street analysts are more interested in management's discussion of how new products and new programs will impact sales, expenses, earnings, etc. rather than the details of how the program will work for owners. So, I actually wouldn't expect that June 17 presentation to include the kind of details we are interested in. I would expect those details will come either before or after that day.


True, not an announcement but more info on it.


----------



## rthib

Marriottsrule said:


> 3/14


Pi Day


----------



## Ken555

CPNY said:


> Interesting. Care to divulge more? Unless of course you’re a Marriott mole and you’re here to stir the pot? Either way I’d be surprised since during the 4Q earnings call they said more would be announced in June



Gotta luv a new member with name “Marriottsrule” leaving an incomplete post, eh? One post, since that’s all he’s ever posted on TUG. Guess this guy is impartial.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dougp26364

Opps


----------



## Dean

Ken555 said:


> Gotta luv a new member with name “Marriottsrule” leaving an incomplete post, eh? One post, since that’s all he’s ever posted on TUG. Guess this guy is impartial.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Sales?


----------



## rthib

CPNY said:


> Interesting. Care to divulge more? Unless of course you’re a Marriott mole and you’re here to stir the pot? Either way I’d be surprised since during the 4Q earnings call they said more would be announced in June


I didn't interpret that as June was the date, but that they would have more information for investors by that date. 
Which either means it will be implemented before then and they will give an update on initial success or that they will give another update on what plans are and a date then.


----------



## CPNY

rthib said:


> I didn't interpret that as June was the date, but that they would have more information for investors by that date.
> Which either means it will be implemented before then and they will give an update on initial success or that they will give another update on what plans are and a date then.


I misspoke. Either way it will be good for the investor but won’t be good for the customer. Hopefully it’s well after June.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> I misspoke. Either way it will be good for the investor but won’t be good for the customer. Hopefully it’s well after June.


Yeah, I am sure they will be speaking to the investors about how it is good for investors. This won't be a presentation to talk about how it is good for customers.


----------



## harringtsn

FWIW, I attended a sales presentation last week at Waiohai. The sales guy said details of the integration would be announced by the end of March with implementation in June.

As an aside, he also mentioned that in a few months the Waiohai sales office would be moving temporarily down the beach to the Sheraton Kauai while they do a major remodeling of their space.


----------



## pacman777

Ken555 said:


> Gotta luv a new member with name “Marriottsrule” leaving an incomplete post, eh? One post, since that’s all he’s ever posted on TUG. Guess this guy is impartial.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




could be the CEO of MVC's account posting this...


----------



## JIMinNC

CPNY said:


> I misspoke. Either way it will be good for the investor but won’t be good for the customer. Hopefully it’s well after June.





dioxide45 said:


> Yeah, I am sure they will be speaking to the investors about how it is good for investors. This won't be a presentation to talk about how it is good for customers.



I'm both an investor in VAC and an owner/customer, so I wonder...will it be good for me or bad????


----------



## SueDonJ

_*Moderator Note*: A number of related posts from another thread have been moved to this one, because it's the one that's cross-referenced/linked on the Vistana forum and we're trying to limit the number of related threads. Sorry if it causes some momentary confusion. _


----------



## rickxylon

Just finished a presentation at Waikoloa. They said announcement would be 3/14 and they knew details but couldn’t discuss them until then.


----------



## dioxide45

So far, what I am seeing with deed conveyances to the MVC DC Trust is that Marriott dropped a bunch of inventory into the MVC Trust, all of it looks like Marriott weeks. On November 30th, Vistana added a bunch of Princeville weeks into the Westin Flex trust. So they are still up till recently independently loading each of the trusts with their own segregated inventory.

If we were looking at a March announcement and June go live, it doesn't look like we will have a single combined trust. If they were creating a new single trust, I wouldn't see them still conveying weeks to the existing trusts.


----------



## rthib

dioxide45 said:


> If we were looking at a March announcement and June go live, it doesn't look like we will have a single combined trust. If they were creating a new single trust, I wouldn't see them still conveying weeks to the existing trusts.


I have not seem any announcements of a combined trust.  Just a system to reserve from one system to another with a common currency.


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> So far, what I am seeing with deed conveyances to the MVC DC Trust is that Marriott dropped a bunch of inventory into the MVC Trust, all of it looks like Marriott weeks. On November 30th, Vistana added a bunch of Princeville weeks into the Westin Flex trust. So they are still up till recently independently loading each of the trusts with their own segregated inventory.
> 
> If we were looking at a March announcement and June go live, it doesn't look like we will have a single combined trust. If they were creating a new single trust, I wouldn't see them still conveying weeks to the existing trusts.



Wouldn't they have to keep feeding both trusts as long as they are still selling both DC Points and Flex plans at the different brands? Even if Flex goes away entirely with the new product (not saying it will, but hypothetically) it would seem they would have to keep funneling inventory into that trust to support sales between now and the sunset date. I'm assuming that any residual inventory left over in a trust that ultimately sunsets could be transferred later to any consolidated trust. We don't know how many months of inventory they like to keep, but the November 30 transaction you noted is still 6-7 months before the notional June go live date.


----------



## dioxide45

rthib said:


> I have not seem any announcements of a combined trust.  Just a system to reserve from one system to another with a common currency.


We haven't seen an announcement about anything other than a combined product to reserve and sell. What form it takes hasn't been announced. It was hypothesized early on that the DC program already did everything they would need it to do and all they would have to do is stop conveying deeds to the Vistana trusts (they have a lot of them) and start conveying the deeds to the DC trust that currently holds all the Marriott deeds that make up the points trust.


----------



## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> Wouldn't they have to keep feeding both trusts as long as they are still selling both DC Points and Flex plans at the different brands? Even if Flex goes away entirely with the new product (not saying it will, but hypothetically) it would seem they would have to keep funneling inventory into that trust to support sales between now and the sunset date. I'm assuming that any residual inventory left over in a trust that ultimately sunsets could be transferred later to any consolidated trust. We don't know how many months of inventory they like to keep, but the November 30 transaction you noted is still 6-7 months before the notional June go live date.


That is quite possible and it seems the conveyance to the Westin Flex trust was small but the one to Sheraton Flex spanned a lot of resorts. They could just be feeding enough in to keep the sales machine going. I don't know what possibilities exist to remove inventory from the trust to move to another trust once it has been declared. I suspect they wouldnt' do that and just sell down the existing trust until depleted. We continue to speculate...


----------



## Marriottsrule

CPNY said:


> Interesting. Care to divulge more? Unless of course you’re a Marriott mole and you’re here to stir the pot? Either way I’d be surprised since during the 4Q earnings call they said more would be announced in June


Attended virtual presentation a few days ago that’s what I was told…sounded like a strange date.


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> We haven't seen an announcement about anything other than a combined product to reserve and sell. What form it takes hasn't been announced. It was hypothesized early on that the DC program already did everything they would need it to do and all they would have to do is stop conveying deeds to the Vistana trusts (they have a lot of them) and start conveying the deeds to the DC trust that currently holds all the Marriott deeds that make up the points trust.



My thinking has always been that the Exchange Company, not the DC Trust, was set up originally and deliberately to be the conduit through which any inventory could be manipulated. Meaning, Marriott could offer affiliation and open enrollment to any other timeshare/fractional companies/owners/members regardless of whether they come under the Marriott umbrella or not. If that's the case then Vistana members/owners could simply be DC Exchange Members like all of us Marriott enrolled Weeks Owners, defined as "affiliates." It's always seemed to me that would be the simplest of all the options to effect integration.

I'll admit, though, that all their talk during investor presentations about a combined product to sell leaves me stumped. Could there be a type of umbrella under which all DC and Flex Trusts could remain separate but with their corresponding Points sold as the same product?


----------



## Sicnarf

What I was told was they will only sell DC points going forward and all unsold Vistana inventory will be added to the DC trust. All existing Vistana developer and authorized ownerships will be able to exchange to DC based on a to-be published exchange rate. Unauthorized resale ownerships can purchase DC points to be eligible for the DC exchange like today.


----------



## Mowogo

SueDonJ said:


> I'll admit, though, that all their talk during investor presentations about a combined product to sell leaves me stumped. Could there be a type of umbrella under which all DC and Flex Trusts could remain separate but with their corresponding Points sold as the same product?


If DC essentially ”purchased” all remaining flex points to add to DC Trust so the trust would essentially be owner of those home options in the existing trusts.  And the process continues as future inventory is acquired through ROFR.


----------



## JIMinNC

SueDonJ said:


> My thinking has always been that the Exchange Company, not the DC Trust, was set up originally and deliberately to be the conduit through which any inventory could be manipulated. Meaning, Marriott could offer affiliation and open enrollment to any other timeshare/fractional companies/owners/members regardless of whether they come under the Marriott umbrella or not. If that's the case then Vistana members/owners could simply be DC Exchange Members like all of us Marriott enrolled Weeks Owners, defined as "affiliates." It's always seemed to me that would be the simplest of all the options to effect integration.
> 
> I'll admit, though, that all their talk during investor presentations about a combined product to sell leaves me stumped. Could there be a type of umbrella under which all DC and Flex Trusts could remain separate but with their corresponding Points sold as the same product?



While just making Vistana owners affiliates in DP could suffice to effect a common exchange platform for owners (i.e. the common exchange currency they have mentioned in investor presentations), it seems they want more than that. By going to a single product offering, they no longer have to have Vistana sales reps who are trained to sell Flex/StarOptions and MVC sales reps who are trained to sell DPs. By selling only one product, they don't have to maintain two parallel sales training programs, two parallel sales accounting systems, duplicative marketing materials and web sites, etc. Wall Street wants to see cost savings from the merger, and simplifying products can contribute to that goal. One company - one product (at least for their Marriott-owned brands). If I were running the company that would be my goal.


----------



## daileys

Newbie on here... read this thread and didn't see much discussion of what I'm most interested in as a MVC owner...

Westin has quite a few interesting properties / locations that MVC does not have - namely Mexico (both and East and West coasts) and Bahamas, plus additional Hawaii properties. My question is: when will Mariott owners be able to use DC points to book those properties, and what will be the points cost compared to MVC properties?

I live in California - the Caribbean is really tough to get to, so Mexico is really appealing, and even the Bahamas is an easier connecting flight from the US than Aruba etc. So I'm excited for these additional options.

Any thoughts on both timing of the actual ability to use DC points for Westin and how Marriott and Westin will decide on relative value vs some of the upper end MVC properties?


----------



## JIMinNC

Steve Dailey said:


> Newbie on here... read this thread and didn't see much discussion of what I'm most interested in as a MVC owner...
> 
> Westin has quite a few interesting properties / locations that MVC does not have - namely Mexico (both and East and West coasts) and Bahamas, plus additional Hawaii properties. My question is: when will Mariott owners be able to use DC points to book those properties, and what will be the points cost compared to MVC properties?
> 
> I live in California - the Caribbean is really tough to get to, so Mexico is really appealing, and even the Bahamas is an easier connecting flight from the US than Aruba etc. So I'm excited for these additional options.
> 
> Any thoughts on both timing of the actual ability to use DC points for Westin and how Marriott and Westin will decide on relative value vs some of the upper end MVC properties?



If you read through the rumors above, the current "hot" rumor from two sources is March 14 announcement with availability starting in June. But those are just rumors from sales reps. The only authoritative factual info we can bank on is what Executive Management has said in their quarterly earnings calls. The specific quote from the CEO is in post #54 above. Very general and vague, but *something* is coming.

As far as points values, that will have to wait for them to publish the points schedules, but I would think they would want to come up with points values that are reasonably consistent across brands - i.e. - the Westin's on Maui would be in the same ballpark as the purpose built Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili Villas just down the beach. But that's just more speculation.

If the March 14 rumor is true, we may not have to wait much longer to find out. If it's not true, we'll find out later this spring, most likely.


----------



## michael49

For what it's worth, the "Welcome" person here at Waiohai (full review to follow next week) also told us that the merger details will be revealed on March 14. Of course, she was trying to get us to go to an "update" presentation!


----------



## dioxide45

michael49 said:


> For what it's worth, the "Welcome" person here at Waiohai (full review to follow next week) also told us that the merger details will be revealed on March 14. Of course, she was trying to get us to go to an "update" presentation!


That is next Monday! Can't wait. I anticipate emails to go out on Sunday!


----------



## jmhpsu93

Sales rep today indicated a soft launch on March 14th with a real launch in June/July for booking 2023 dates, no additional details had been with sales yet.

They had a brief training that morning that showed some examples of points charts but nothing has been released officially.  His theory is that Ritz-Carlton>Westin>MVC>Sheraton and that simliar seasons/views in comparable locations will reflect that.  Example Westin St. John would be somehere in between RC St. Thomas and MVC St. Kitts.

He knew we weren't buying pretty quickly and had a pleasant chat with the rep and his team lead so I don't think they'd have any reason to lie about it.


----------



## TravelTime

Steve Dailey said:


> Newbie on here... read this thread and didn't see much discussion of what I'm most interested in as a MVC owner...
> 
> Westin has quite a few interesting properties / locations that MVC does not have - namely Mexico (both and East and West coasts) and Bahamas, plus additional Hawaii properties. My question is: when will Mariott owners be able to use DC points to book those properties, and what will be the points cost compared to MVC properties?
> 
> I live in California - the Caribbean is really tough to get to, so Mexico is really appealing, and even the Bahamas is an easier connecting flight from the US than Aruba etc. So I'm excited for these additional options.
> 
> Any thoughts on both timing of the actual ability to use DC points for Westin and how Marriott and Westin will decide on relative value vs some of the upper end MVC properties?



I am in California too. I agree it is very hard to get to the Caribbean. We are going to Ritz Carlton St Thomas for 15 nights in June. We are flying out of SFO and I am using United miles since the cost per person was $1300+ and we are a family of 4. I live closer to Sacramento and to fly out from Sac would a lot more miles or even more expensive. Maybe I booked too late since I just booked a couple weeks ago. I was waiting to book due to Covid and making sure we could fly.

I am looking forward to a merged MVC/Vistana program even though I own MVC DPs and Vistana. I prefer booking with DPs because I can book at 13 months. Right now, if I want a location other than Maui where I own. I can only book 8 months out and then it is hard to find leftover inventory in desirable locations at 8 months. 

I am also hoping that I will be able to move up to Chairman’s level with the merged program since I own a 2 BR oceanfront in Maui. If the DP values are the same as the MOC in Maui, then I would become Chairman’s Club. I am Presidential now, which I have been happy with.


----------



## michael49

And....no news!


----------



## dioxide45

michael49 said:


> And....no news!


Over in the sister thread on the Vistana forum, it was reported that the announcement was pushed back a week. Expect an announcement on the 21st! Woohoo!


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> Over in the sister thread on the Vistana forum, it was reported that the announcement was pushed back a week. Expect an announcement on the 21st! Woohoo!



Should I keep holding my breath?  Turning some funny colors….


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> Over in the sister thread on the Vistana forum, it was reported that the announcement was pushed back a week. Expect an announcement on the 21st! Woohoo!



We shall see. I doubt it but that’s just me


----------



## dougp26364

Eric B said:


> Should I keep holding my breath?  Turning some funny colors….



I’ve held my breath so long I could be mistaken for one of the blue Fugates of Kentucky








						The Fugate Family Of Kentucky Has Had Blue Skin For Centuries — Here's Why
					

For 197 years, the Fugate family has remained sealed off from the outside world as they've passed their blue skin through the generations.




					allthatsinteresting.com


----------



## kds4

During our update last week, rep didn't seem to try to 'spin'. Confirmed an 'overlay' type of product coming in the 'near future' once conversion rates between Vistana and MVC were finalized, that a new ownership level above Chairman's Club is coming (because of Vistana having a level of ownership with quantity requirements higher than Chairman's Club), and no need to buy additional points as current Chairman's Club would be grandfathered to the new level as they have previously unless you were already grandfathered to Chairman's Club. In that case you would remain at Chairman's Club while those who actually owned enough to be Chairman's Club would get bumped up - meaning only 1 'grandfather' benefit per account (no double-grandfathering). We didn't buy anything and left on pleasant terms.


----------



## Fasttr

kds4 said:


> During our update last week, rep didn't seem to try to 'spin'. Confirmed an 'overlay' type of product coming in the 'near future' once conversion rates between Vistana and MVC were finalized, that a new ownership level above Chairman's Club is coming (because of Vistana having a level of ownership with quantity requirements higher than Chairman's Club), and no need to buy additional points as current Chairman's Club would be grandfathered to the new level as they have previously unless you were already grandfathered to Chairman's Club. In that case you would remain at Chairman's Club while those who actually owned enough to be Chairman's Club would get bumped up - meaning only 1 'grandfather' benefit per account (no double-grandfathering). We didn't buy anything and left on pleasant terms.


I always enjoyed having 2 grandfathers.  ;-)


----------



## SunandFun83

Norcal5 said:


> This is such a bummer.  Zero advantage to Marriott owners.  Big win for Vistana.  There is not a single resort I’m interested in on the Vistana side. Is anyone else feeling like we points owners are going to be losing out?


You might open your mind and review the Westins that are superior or at least equal to Marriotts:  Kierland, St. John, Nanea, Beavercreek.  They also have unique locations  like Cancun, Bahamas which widen the Marriott Map.

I am super excited to be able to book some.


----------



## craigc

I'm with you SunandFun83, I see quite a few I'd like to book in '23. I was not aware of the one in Scottsdale, that looks nicer than the MVC location.


----------



## rickandcindy23

craigc said:


> I'm with you SunandFun83, I see quite a few I'd like to book in '23. I was not aware of the one in Scottsdale, that looks nicer than the MVC location.


Westin Kierland is gorgeous, and so is Sheraton Desert Oasis, for that matter.


----------



## steve1000

FWIW - I was told in an owner update today that the announcement of the new program that had been planned for March 14th was re-scheduled to Monday March 21. 
We'll see if that happens.


----------



## Fasttr

steve1000 said:


> FWIW - I was told in an owner update today that the announcement of the new program that had been planned for March 14th was re-scheduled to Monday March 21.
> We'll see if that happens.


The IT department hadn’t started on the changes yet and figured they needed a week to implement the them.   (Insert eye roll emoji here).


----------



## dougp26364

With all these dates they’re talking about, do they ever mention what year?


----------



## Dean

I'm getting some tidbits.  Booking starts in June but only for 2023.  Bahama's and Avon not in initially and no Hyatt initially.  No more specifics than that at this point.


----------



## dsmrp

Dean said:


> I'm getting some tidbits.  Booking starts in June but only for 2023.  Bahama's and Avon not in initially and no Hyatt initially.  No more specifics than that at this point.


That's for Marriott folks booking Vistana.  I'm curious about the other way around, Vistana booking Marriott.


----------



## JIMinNC

Dean said:


> I'm getting some tidbits.  Booking starts in June but only for 2023.  Bahama's and Avon not in initially and no Hyatt initially.  No more specifics than that at this point.



Based on Executive Mgmt’s statements, Hyatt is not just “initially”. They are contractually prohibited from including Hyatt under their Hyatt licensing agreement.


----------



## Dean

dsmrp said:


> That's for Marriott folks booking Vistana.  I'm curious about the other way around, Vistana booking Marriott.


What I'm being told is both sides will have the same guidelines.  At this point I'm not getting any restrictions otherwise but that doesn't mean there won't be any.  I'm guessing a reduced booking window but we'll see as more official info is released.  What I am also being told is no enrollment of Westin/Starwood together with MVC currently.  I know the info is sketchy but the source is reliable IMO.


JIMinNC said:


> Based on Executive Mgmt’s statements, Hyatt is not just “initially”. They are contractually prohibited from including Hyatt under their Hyatt licensing agreement.


I'm aware but that was the wording I was given which makes me wonder if there might be changes in the future or it might just be the way it was phrased.


----------



## JIMinNC

Dean said:


> I'm aware but that was the wording I was given which makes me wonder if there might be changes in the future or it might just be the way it was phrased.



If your source is in Sales, it seems that Sales has been consistently including Hyatt in some idealistic future version of whatever MVW comes up with, but that is directly contradicted by what the Executive team is telling the investor community. My only theory on why Sales keeps mentioning Hyatt is that since Hyatt has some very appealing locations where MVC and Vistana are not, Sales is engaging in some wishful thinking, since they know that holding out the possibility that Hyatt may one day be included might garner them a few more sales.

But thinking about it logically, I can't imagine how MVW could ever manage to integrate Hyatt (other than through II) with the competing loyalty programs and different brand ownership. I guess if Marriott International ever acquired Hyatt Hotels, that could all change, but given the number of brands MI already controls, I would think any acquisition of Hyatt would raise serious antitrust issues.


----------



## Dean

Jim, I have followed your posts on the stockholders side and very much appreciate the information and effort involved.  My info is from sales but this person is not into hyperbole or being misleading, unfortunately that's not the usual with sales.  It's far more likely I read more into his wording than anything else.  But his wording did give at least a glimmer of hope that it could happen at some point.  While there are challenges in incorporating Hyatt, some that make it very unlikely, I'm sure they would if they could.  Things could change in the future with that situation.  My prediction is they're either eventually integrate Hyatt or sell it off, time will tell.


----------



## Dean

A couple of other tidbits realizing this is all very new and will be an evolving situation from a knowledge and understanding standpoint.  After reviewing the information I was given, which is extremely limited, I'm not sure that points owners on the non MVC side will have access initially.  It does appear that different levels on the MVC side will have different access but no specifics at this point.


----------



## TSKing

JIMinNC said:


> If you read through the rumors above, the current "hot" rumor from two sources is March 14 announcement with availability starting in June. But those are just rumors from sales reps. The only authoritative factual info we can bank on is what Executive Management has said in their quarterly earnings calls. The specific quote from the CEO is in post #54 above. Very general and vague, but *something* is coming.
> 
> As far as points values, that will have to wait for them to publish the points schedules, but I would think they would want to come up with points values that are reasonably consistent across brands - i.e. - the Westin's on Maui would be in the same ballpark as the purpose built Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili Villas just down the beach. But that's just more speculation.
> 
> If the March 14 rumor is true, we may not have to wait much longer to find out. If it's not true, we'll find out later this spring, most likely.



I had a zoom call with a sales rep (MVC) in February because I own also Vistana.  What he told me was Vistana options are converting to my MVC points.  I am not sure if he meant (I thought he did but now not sure) that my points from Vistana would automatically convert and all the properties would be in my one MVC account!  Can't wait for the announcement.  I own Westin and Sheraton in Vistana.  What the sales rep told me was that the Westin was worth more points, there would be a higher exchange ratio.  So because of this he was offering to sell me more points to trade in my Sheratons!  More cash, no not me, not now!!!  He also said if you own Vistana  already, you have will have access to Marriott with those points.  Otherwise if you are a Vistana owner only, things will be the same.  You must buy into MVC if you want access to those properties, other than outside exchange (II).


----------



## VacationForever

TSKing said:


> I had a zoom call with a sales rep (MVC) in February because I own also Vistana.  What he told me was Vistana options are converting to my MVC points.  I am not sure if he meant (I thought he did but now not sure) that my points from Vistana would automatically convert and all the properties would be in my one MVC account!  Can't wait for the announcement.  I own Westin and Sheraton in Vistana.  What the sales rep told me was that the Westin was worth more points, there would be a higher exchange ratio.  So because of this he was offering to sell me more points to trade in my Sheratons!  More cash, no not me, not now!!!  He also said if you own Vistana  already, you have will have access to Marriott with those points.  Otherwise if you are a Vistana owner only, things will be the same.  You must buy into MVC if you want access to those properties, other than outside exchange (II).


Salespeople know squat.


----------



## dougp26364

TSKing said:


> I had a zoom call with a sales rep (MVC) in February because I own also Vistana.  What he told me was Vistana options are converting to my MVC points.  I am not sure if he meant (I thought he did but now not sure) that my points from Vistana would automatically convert and all the properties would be in my one MVC account!  Can't wait for the announcement.  I own Westin and Sheraton in Vistana.  What the sales rep told me was that the Westin was worth more points, there would be a higher exchange ratio.  So because of this he was offering to sell me more points to trade in my Sheratons!  More cash, no not me, not now!!!  He also said if you own Vistana  already, you have will have access to Marriott with those points.  Otherwise if you are a Vistana owner only, things will be the same.  You must buy into MVC if you want access to those properties, other than outside exchange (II).



The key here is “he was offering to sell you more points”. As soon as I read that I realized he was in,y telling you what he thought you needed to hear in order to get you to buy now.

I’ll be glad when they finally make an official announcement. Then we can shift from speculation to dissecting the program and finding the loopholes. I’m sure we’ll all find something to complain about first before we find the advantages and ways we can use the program to our advantage. We’ll also shift to the new lies the salesmen begin to tell once the official program is official


----------



## CPNY

dougp26364 said:


> The key here is “he was offering to sell you more points”. As soon as I read that I realized he was in,y telling you what he thought you needed to hear in order to get you to buy now.
> 
> I’ll be glad when they finally make an official announcement. Then we can shift from speculation to dissecting the program and finding the loopholes. I’m sure we’ll all find something to complain about first before we find the advantages and ways we can use the program to our advantage. We’ll also shift to the new lies the salesmen begin to tell once the official program is official


The new program hasn’t been rolled out yet and I already hate it haha


----------



## dougp26364

CPNY said:


> The new program hasn’t been rolled out yet and I already hate it haha



When the DC came out I was extremely displeased with the “skim”. Mostly because I had envisioned converting my Ocean Pointe unit to DC points, booking a smaller unit and having points left over to go somewhere else. That didn’t happen. Instead we weren’t even given enough points to book our deeded week with our deeded view of we converted to points. Adding insult to injury, o couldn’t even move down from a 3 bedroom OF to a 2 bedroom OF and have enough points for the week we were accustomed to booking.
All these years later we’ve added a deed, added trust points, climbed to presidents and then chairman’s level and found ways to make the program work well for us. We’ve even converted our 2022 Ocean Pointe week to DC points for the first time as we plan to try Marco Island in December instead of Palm Beach. We’ll see how that goes


----------



## vacation dreaming

So where is this big announcement?  I thought today was the day?  Vistana owners can barely access the reservation website these days.  Something needs to change.


----------



## KS2beach

TSKing said:


> I had a zoom call with a sales rep (MVC) in February because I own also Vistana.  What he told me was Vistana options are converting to my MVC points.  I am not sure if he meant (I thought he did but now not sure) that my points from Vistana would automatically convert and all the properties would be in my one MVC account!  Can't wait for the announcement.  I own Westin and Sheraton in Vistana.  What the sales rep told me was that the Westin was worth more points, there would be a higher exchange ratio.  So because of this he was offering to sell me more points to trade in my Sheratons!  More cash, no not me, not now!!!  He also said if you own Vistana  already, you have will have access to Marriott with those points.  Otherwise if you are a Vistana owner only, things will be the same.  You must buy into MVC if you want access to those properties, other than outside exchange (II).


We are in the same boat- we own Westin- Sheraton- and MVC- so anxious to see how this shakes out. My biggest worry is not being able to get into my WRF home ownership after all these others added in to book out at 12 months and 13 months.


----------



## dougp26364

vacation dreaming said:


> So where is this big announcement?  I thought today was the day?  Vistana owners can barely access the reservation website these days.  Something needs to change.



they didn’t say March 21 of this year did they?


----------



## dougp26364

We’ll maybe it is happening. I just tried to log in and check our account and can’t get the page to load. Maybe there is hope after all


----------



## dioxide45

dougp26364 said:


> We’ll maybe it is happening. I just tried to log in and check our account and can’t get the page to load. Maybe there is hope after all


Hell, that is the norm these days on the Vistana.com website.


----------



## Fasttr

Apparently the changes were not worth mentioning.  ;-)


----------



## bbland

Hi all, new here and new to Timeshares.  We stay every year at Steamboat Sheraton and are considering buying a week.  But it's very confusing.  If this isn't the right thread I apologize in advance.  The unit we want is currently deeded for a specific unit and specific week, which is exactly what we want.  If we buy now, will we retain that?  Also, if we buy now, will it be converted to points in the future where we would have the option of going somewhere else?  Every time I call into Vistana, they just try to sell me their points directly and I can't get any answers.

Thanks in advance,
Beth


----------



## dioxide45

bbland said:


> Hi all, new here and new to Timeshares.  We stay every year at Steamboat Sheraton and are considering buying a week.  But it's very confusing.  If this isn't the right thread I apologize in advance.  The unit we want is currently deeded for a specific unit and specific week, which is exactly what we want.  If we buy now, will we retain that?  Also, if we buy now, will it be converted to points in the future where we would have the option of going somewhere else?  Every time I call into Vistana, they just try to sell me their points directly and I can't get any answers.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Beth


This question is probably best asked in the Vistana forum as its own thread. I don't think Sheraton Steamboat was sold as fixed week/fixed unit. So the deeded week and unit number are probably meaningless. Ask in the Vistana forum to confirm.








						Vistana / Sheraton / Westin Timeshares
					

Discussions about the Vistana / Westin / Sheraton branded Timeshare network




					tugbbs.com


----------



## KS2beach

dougp26364 said:


> We’ll maybe it is happening. I just tried to log in and check our account and can’t get the page to load. Maybe there is hope after all


just heard now saying March 24th for information


----------



## KS2beach

Steve Dailey said:


> Newbie on here... read this thread and didn't see much discussion of what I'm most interested in as a MVC owner...
> 
> Westin has quite a few interesting properties / locations that MVC does not have - namely Mexico (both and East and West coasts) and Bahamas, plus additional Hawaii properties. My question is: when will Mariott owners be able to use DC points to book those properties, and what will be the points cost compared to MVC properties?
> 
> I live in California - the Caribbean is really tough to get to, so Mexico is really appealing, and even the Bahamas is an easier connecting flight from the US than Aruba etc. So I'm excited for these additional options.
> 
> Any thoughts on both timing of the actual ability to use DC points for Westin and how Marriott and Westin will decide on relative value vs some of the upper end MVC properties?


Sounds like announcement pushed back to March 24th, others are saying unknown if actually is the case- will believe it when they send out--but this is what we heard;

* Vistana program stays as is for all current owners.

* Marriott owners will not have access to Vistana properties until 8 Months unless someone elects to to move their ownership into DC program

* Annually you can elect to move SO’s into the DC program

* 5 Star elite will be grandfathered into Chairman’s Level, but I’m unsure if you had to have conversions that equaled 15,000+ DC Vacation Club Points

* Vistana Owners will not have a enrollment fee into the merged program, but will have the Club Fee to access (like our annual Vistana Fee)


----------



## rthib

KS2beach said:


> Sounds like announcement pushed back to March 24th, others are saying unknown if actually is the case- will believe it when they send out--but this is what we heard;
> 
> * Vistana program stays as is for all current owners.
> 
> * Marriott owners will not have access to Vistana properties until 8 Months unless someone elects to to move their ownership into DC program
> 
> * Annually you can elect to move SO’s into the DC program
> 
> * 5 Star elite will be grandfathered into Chairman’s Level, but I’m unsure if you had to have conversions that equaled 15,000+ DC Vacation Club Points
> 
> * Vistana Owners will not have a enrollment fee into the merged program, but will have the Club Fee to access (like our annual Vistana Fee)


That sounds possible, wondering what the "you need to buy DC points in order to get" catch will be to drive up sales.


----------



## Fasttr

KS2beach said:


> just heard now saying March 24th for information


Seems the marketing department is as bad as the IT department.


----------



## Dean

rthib said:


> That sounds possible, wondering what the "you need to buy DC points in order to get" catch will be to drive up sales.


To level up?  Enroll resale? Credit additive across both programs for status?  New level requirements?  No matter the outcome, sales will have to take the specifics and use it to encourage people to buy.  It's sounded like this is going to be a phased program with possible crossover access now and a future fully combined program, time will tell.


----------



## craigc

"* Marriott owners will not have access to Vistana properties until 8 Months unless someone elects to to move their ownership into DC program"

If this is the case, I doubt we (MVC) will be able to get many nights at the top end properties....Westin St John and Riverfront in Beaver Creek for example.


----------



## SandyPGravel

craigc said:


> "* Marriott owners will not have access to Vistana properties until 8 Months unless someone elects to to move their ownership into DC program"
> 
> If this is the case, I doubt we (MVC) will be able to get many nights at the top end properties....Westin St John and Riverfront in Beaver Creek for example.


8 months is the same time frame Vistana owners have, so it will be an even field at the 8 month mark.  I was worried (because I know very little about the Marriott system) about the 13 month access I have seen mentioned.  Is that the home resort ownership time frame?


----------



## craigc

SandyPGravel said:


> 8 months is the same time frame Vistana owners have, so it will be an even field at the 8 month mark.  I was worried (because I know very little about the Marriott system) about the 13 month access I have seen mentioned.  Is that the home resort ownership time frame?


Thank you Gina, I was not aware of that. I assumed that they were at 12/13 like the MVC.   If you are points based in MVC, you can book at 13, if a deeded week, I believe it is 12 mos out.


----------



## vacationtime1

craigc said:


> "* Marriott owners will not have access to Vistana properties until 8 Months unless someone elects to to move their ownership into DC program"
> 
> If this is the case, *I doubt we (MVC) will be able to get many nights at the top end properties*....Westin St John and Riverfront in Beaver Creek for example.


Just as "we" (Vistana owners) are unlikely to get Park City ski weeks.  Seems fair.


----------



## jwalk03

craigc said:


> Thank you Gina, I was not aware of that. I assumed that they were at 12/13 like the MVC.   If you are points based in MVC, you can book at 13, if a deeded week, I believe it is 12 mos out.



Weeks are 13 months if booking consecutive or concurrent weeks.  12 months to book a single week.


----------



## SandyPGravel

jwalk03 said:


> Weeks are 13 months if booking consecutive or concurrent weeks.  12 months to book a single week.


Ok, that makes sense.  Is this timeframe at any resort or at a "home" resort.


----------



## jwalk03

SandyPGravel said:


> Ok, that makes sense.  Is this timeframe at any resort or at a "home" resort.



Weeks owners can only book at a home resort.  Anything outside of a home resort reservation would be through Interval.  (There is a limited exception for Florida Club weeks, where you can book consecutive or concurrent weeks at other FC resorts at 7 months out, or single FC weeks at 6 months out.)


----------



## Sicnarf

MVC Destination Club (DC) has no home resort concept and booking preference is based on elite level and length of stay. Also, a DC member can only book units deposited in the DC Exchange or units owned by the DC Trust if the member also owns units in the Trust. Hence, an MVC DC Trust member will not be able to book a Vistana unit unless a Vistana owner deposits a Vistana unit  to the DC Exchange or the Vistana unit is added to the DC Trust.


----------



## californiagirl

I’m currently at Ko Olina.  I went to the sales center today to see the refurbished model room and to get a copy of the resort map with the view categories per building.  The salesman said he was pressed for time since he was working on a project.  He said the points charts for Westin and Sheraton would be available to them on Thursday.  He apologized for not being able to spend more time with me.  We were together less than 5 minutes.  That was a first for me…having a salesperson anxious to get away!


----------



## Mowogo

Sicnarf said:


> MVC Destination Club (DC) has no home resort concept and booking preference is based on elite level and length of stay. Also, a DC member can only book units deposited in the DC Exchange or units owned by the DC Trust if the member also owns units in the Trust. Hence, an MVC DC Trust member will not be able to book a Vistana unit unless a Vistana owner deposits a Vistana unit  to the DC Exchange or the Vistana unit is added to the DC Trust.


I could see Flex owners doing DC Exchange as standard, especially if that is what they are encouraged to do in the next "owners update."


----------



## daviator

Mowogo said:


> I could see Flex owners doing DC Exchange as standard, especially if that is what they are encouraged to do in the next "owners update."


I can see that too.  But Flex doesn’t have a lot of great inventory, it’s a big dump of weeks they couldn’t sell plus some dribs and drabs of desirable weeks.  Phoenix in August, anyone?  

Don't get me wrong, it’s not all bad, but if Marriott owners think they’re going to easily be able to book the Westin properties in Maui, St. John, etc., I suspect they will be disappointed.


----------



## dioxide45

Mowogo said:


> I could see Flex owners doing DC Exchange as standard, especially if that is what they are encouraged to do in the next "owners update."


It may depend on where/when they want to go and how Marriott values the Vistana weeks at. Say someone owns Sheraton Flex and it gets a 32:1 ratio. They have 81,000 options which works out to 2,550 points in the Marriott system. The 81,000 Options would get them a week in a 1BR Premium in Maui any time of the year. However, if we look at the Marriott point chart, it would only get them a Studio in low season.

Similar in Orlando. 81,000 StarOptions would get them a 2BR in prime season at either Vistana Villages or Vistana Resort but at Grande Vista the 2,550 points would only work for a 2BR for about 8 weeks of the year.


----------



## Mowogo

dioxide45 said:


> It may depend on where/when they want to go and how Marriott values the Vistana weeks at. Say someone owns Sheraton Flex and it gets a 32:1 ratio. They have 81,000 options which works out to 2,550 points in the Marriott system. The 81,000 Options would get them a week in a 1BR Premium in Maui any time of the year. However, if we look at the Marriott point chart, it would only get them a Studio in low season.
> 
> Similar in Orlando. 81,000 StarOptions would get them a 2BR in prime season at either Vistana Villages or Vistana Resort but at Grande Vista the 2,550 points would only work for a 2BR for about 8 weeks of the year.


The conversion rate is brutal, but we have to understand that the standard TUG user is not the standard timeshare owner, and there are lots of owners that believe what they are told at updates.  If they are told they can get better Use of their ownership converting to DC then they will.  And yes you can get Maui for much cheaper waiting for VSN, but there are people that would get value out of being able to lock in that week further in advance.


----------



## APilgrim

Anyone else get this email:  
As you may already know, Marriott is in the final stages of assimilating your Starwood owner portfolio into the MVC program. As this process moves forward, there will be decisions and choices that all Starwood owners will be making in the coming months. However, our corporate team is running a special campaign for specific Starwood owners because of where and/or how they are deeded.

 Given the limited time along with the overwhelming number of Starwood owners we are trying to accommodate, we are conducting these campaigns on a virtual basis only. This meeting is NOT mandatory. However, there are changes that you may want take advantage of which will put you in a much better position once your portfolio (shown at the bottom of this email) is consolidated into the MVC program. The changes and options being referred to in this email will NOT be available after Final Consolidation. Please let us know what dates and times work best for you prior to March 31st and we'll try to accommodate you as best we can.

I responded and asked for more detail.  From his reply it seems to be an attempt at an "Owner's Update".  Also didn't include a date for "Final Consolidation" and wouldn't tell me what the changes I might want to take advantage of unless I agreed to his virtual meeting.


----------



## dsmrp

APilgrim said:


> Anyone else get this email:
> As you may already know, Marriott is in the final stages of assimilating your Starwood owner portfolio into the MVC program. As this process moves forward, there will be decisions and choices that all Starwood owners will be making in the coming months. However, our corporate team is running a special campaign for specific Starwood owners because of where and/or how they are deeded.
> 
> Given the limited time along with the overwhelming number of Starwood owners we are trying to accommodate, we are conducting these campaigns on a virtual basis only. This meeting is NOT mandatory. However, there are changes that you may want take advantage of which will put you in a much better position once your portfolio (shown at the bottom of this email) is consolidated into the MVC program. The changes and options being referred to in this email will NOT be available after Final Consolidation. Please let us know what dates and times work best for you prior to March 31st and we'll try to accommodate you as best we can.
> 
> I responded and asked for more detail.  From his reply it seems to be an attempt at an "Owner's Update".  Also didn't include a date for "Final Consolidation" and wouldn't tell me what the changes I might want to take advantage of unless I agreed to his virtual meeting.



Nope nothing in email for me.  Perhaps Marriott-Vistana is targeting mandatory owners.


----------



## VacationForever

Just salesperson's creative marketing.  See the use of Starwood owner?  It is now Vistana.  This is not a corporate email or position.


----------



## vacation dreaming

I am a mandatory owner and did not receive this. I agree - using Starwood not Vistana is a giveaway that it is not corporate.


----------



## dioxide45

APilgrim said:


> Anyone else get this email:
> As you may already know, Marriott is in the final stages of assimilating your Starwood owner portfolio into the MVC program. As this process moves forward, there will be decisions and choices that all Starwood owners will be making in the coming months. However, our corporate team is running a special campaign for specific Starwood owners because of where and/or how they are deeded.
> 
> Given the limited time along with the overwhelming number of Starwood owners we are trying to accommodate, we are conducting these campaigns on a virtual basis only. This meeting is NOT mandatory. However, there are changes that you may want take advantage of which will put you in a much better position once your portfolio (shown at the bottom of this email) is consolidated into the MVC program. The changes and options being referred to in this email will NOT be available after Final Consolidation. Please let us know what dates and times work best for you prior to March 31st and we'll try to accommodate you as best we can.
> 
> I responded and asked for more detail.  From his reply it seems to be an attempt at an "Owner's Update".  Also didn't include a date for "Final Consolidation" and wouldn't tell me what the changes I might want to take advantage of unless I agreed to his virtual meeting.


This is just a standard marketing email to get you into an "Owner Update". Others have received similar communication as this in the recent past. Nothing specific regarding the integration. Vistana has been selling a "consolidated" product for almost a year now, even though they knew nothing about how it would work.


----------



## daviator

dsmrp said:


> Nope nothing in email for me.  Perhaps Marriott-Vistana is targeting mandatory owners.


"The changes and options... will NOT be available after Final Consolidation..." is a classic attempt at FOMO, fear of missing out... Act now!  Limited time offer!

There's not going to be a "final consolidation" and I would not recommend buying on rumors from a sales guy who just wants your money OR wants to reclaim your deeded weeks and sell you something of inferior value.

I haven't received one of these, but there have been other posts from people who have gotten similar messages.


----------



## CPNY

daviator said:


> "The changes and options... will NOT be available after Final Consolidation..." is a classic attempt at FOMO, fear of missing out... Act now!  Limited time offer!
> 
> There's not going to be a "final consolidation" and I would not recommend buying on rumors from a sales guy who just wants your money OR wants to reclaim your deeded weeks and sell you something of inferior value.
> 
> I haven't received one of these, but there have been other posts from people who have gotten similar messages.


It’s disgusting how they sold owners expensive timeshares 15-20 years ago, then get these same people to give it back and pay more for something inferior, leaving the owners scratching their heads wondering what went wrong lol.


----------



## dioxide45

Well, only a few more hours till we see a big announcement!!!


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> Well, only a few more hours till we see a big announcement!!!


The nice thing is that you can just recycle this post from last week, and then maybe use it again next week, and the week after.  

I'm not holding my breath but it would be nice to get this thing out in the open so we can start talking about reality instead of just rumor.


----------



## JIMinNC

It would appear that something is indeed being rolled out today through the sales offices. I have now seen photos in two posts on a couple of the Marriott Facebook groups of new signage - one from Myrtle Beach and one on Maui. One said "COMING SOON FOR OWNERS: Ready for More? More destinations. More brands. More choices." and the other said "COMING SOON FOR OWNERS: Ready for More? More choices. More benefits. More simplicity." The graphics style/design was identical on both, even though the message was slightly different, so it would seem to be a corporate rollout.


----------



## Dean

JIMinNC said:


> It would appear that something is indeed being rolled out today through the sales offices. I have now seen photos in two posts on a couple of the Marriott Facebook groups of new signage - one from Myrtle Beach and one on Maui. One said "COMING SOON FOR OWNERS: Ready for More? More destinations. More brands. More choices." and the other said "COMING SOON FOR OWNERS: Ready for More? More choices. More benefits. More simplicity." The graphics style/design was identical on both, even though the message was slightly different, so it would seem to be a corporate rollout.


I have confirmation from my contact also but no specifics or points charts yet.


----------



## dioxide45

The only confirmed thing (from a sale rep) is conversion rate of Westin Flex and Westin Kierland Villas 2BR Plat+. These would be 28.84:1 and 36.57:1 respectively.


KACTravels said:


> For the previous conversion rates, in today's text she only confirmed today Westin Flex @ 28.84 and Kierland Platinum @ 36.57


----------



## alexadeparis

live anecdotal reporting of a presentation today on one of the Marriott Facebook groups is as follows:
"The take away was that Starwood Owners will have to buy into Marriott’s Trust Points to be able to use the System and there are now 70 Resorts. According to the [salesperson], Marriott has worked extremely hard to be fair to all existing Owners (Marriott and Starwood)."


----------



## rickandcindy23

alexadeparis said:


> live anecdotal reporting of a presentation today on one of the Marriott Facebook groups is as follows:
> "The take away was that Starwood Owners will have to buy into Marriott’s Trust Points to be able to use the System and there are now 70 Resorts. According to the [salesperson], Marriott has worked extremely hard to be fair to all existing Owners (Marriott and Starwood)."


Not a good transition at all.  I am having reservation # issues that are ongoing with my guests at SBP not being able to confirm their weeks.


----------



## dougp26364

alexadeparis said:


> live anecdotal reporting of a presentation today on one of the Marriott Facebook groups is as follows:
> "The take away was that Starwood Owners will have to buy into Marriott’s Trust Points to be able to use the System and there are now 70 Resorts. According to the [salesperson], Marriott has worked extremely hard to be fair to all existing Owners (Marriott and Starwood)."



they later qualified that to say they would NOT have to buy in, they’d be automatically included. It sounds like they’ll have to convert their weeks or star options to play in the DC pool.

it’s exciting that maybe something is actually happening, but o think I’ll wait until someone has something in writing instead of, “We attended a presentation” information


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Should be a busy week on TUG with this rollout plus HGV Max in early April. Let the games begin!


----------



## Mowogo

dougp26364 said:


> they later qualified that to say they would NOT have to buy in, they’d be automatically included. It sounds like they’ll have to convert their weeks or star options to play in the DC pool.
> 
> it’s exciting that maybe something is actually happening, but o think I’ll wait until someone has something in writing instead of, “We attended a presentation” information


If there is no extra fee to access the DC pool then I can see a lot of owners converting instead of using VSN.  13 month booking window is huge and depending on desires could justify the skim in conversion rates depending on holdings.  I see the standard owners update to even focus on the benefits of converting to DC every year even if they don’t complete the sale just to build the new program and give it more inventory.  And I’d say that to access future resorts you will likely have to convert.


----------



## TSKing

APilgrim said:


> Anyone else get this email:
> As you may already know, Marriott is in the final stages of assimilating your Starwood owner portfolio into the MVC program. As this process moves forward, there will be decisions and choices that all Starwood owners will be making in the coming months. However, our corporate team is running a special campaign for specific Starwood owners because of where and/or how they are deeded.
> 
> Given the limited time along with the overwhelming number of Starwood owners we are trying to accommodate, we are conducting these campaigns on a virtual basis only. This meeting is NOT mandatory. However, there are changes that you may want take advantage of which will put you in a much better position once your portfolio (shown at the bottom of this email) is consolidated into the MVC program. The changes and options being referred to in this email will NOT be available after Final Consolidation. Please let us know what dates and times work best for you prior to March 31st and we'll try to accommodate you as best we can.
> 
> I responded and asked for more detail.  From his reply it seems to be an attempt at an "Owner's Update".  Also didn't include a date for "Final Consolidation" and wouldn't tell me what the changes I might want to take advantage of unless I agreed to his virtual meeting.


Yes, I received that sometime in February and made a virtual appointment.  They are again "selling" by informing you what is to come and how you can take advantage of the point values before they are changed.  I own Sheraton, Westin and also MVC Points.  But he did inform to me the exchange value they will use for Sheraton and Vistana Options if transferred to Marriott VC points.  Apparently Westin is worth more than Sheraton.  So if you own Sheraton Flex for example,  I would be able to turn that in to exchange for a Westin.  Of course they would allow only one Sheraton Flex week, toward a purchase of a Westin property.  So in this particular deal I would have to come up with $30K.  But it would be worth more MVC points because Westin is worth more.  Anyway, I didn't go for it and the deal was off once I ended the call.  I'm sorry I have forgotten the particulars.  And also they won't offer it to me again once I ended the call.  So if you don't own MVC, you may want to find out what the deal is.


----------



## regatta333

Sales rep we met with on a recent trip to Ko'Olina just contacted me.  He confirmed the previously mentioned conversion for Westin Kierland at 4,050 DC points for a 2BD platinum season week.  He said that during January the Marriott values for Arizona were lower, so that it was averaged.  Still seems that this was undervalued in comparison to the Marriott property.

We were prepared to pay the $19K it would have cost to buy 1,500 DC points for the flexibility of converting our 2 platinum Kierland weeks, but at this conversion rate, I honestly cannot see the value of ever electing to convert these weeks.  And having 1,500 standalone DC points is certainly not worth $19K.


----------



## dioxide45

regatta333 said:


> Sales rep we met with on a recent trip to Ko'Olina just contacted me.  He confirmed the previously mentioned conversion for Westin Kierland at 4,050 DC points for a 2BD platinum season week.  He said that during January the Marriott values for Arizona were lower, so that it was averaged.  Still seems that this was undervalued in comparison to the Marriott property.
> 
> We were prepared to pay the $19K it would have cost to buy 1,500 DC points for the flexibility of converting our 2 platinum Kierland weeks, but at this conversion rate, I honestly cannot see the value of ever electing to convert these weeks.  And having 1,500 standalone DC points is certainly not worth $19K.


I initially thought it was undervalued compared to Canyon villas but it doesn't look to be the case. Platinum Canyon Villas owners get 2,950 DC points when they elect and Platinum Plus receive 3,900.

Who says you have to buy 1,500 DC points to be able to convert your 2 Plat+ WKV weeks? Not sure that will actually be the case.


----------



## regatta333

dioxide45 said:


> Who says you have to buy 1,500 DC points to be able to convert your 2 Plat+ WKV weeks? Not sure that will actually be the case.



You had to buy a minimum of 1,000 DC points to be able to buy into this hybrid product which would enable you to elect (on an annual basis) to convert your Vistana weeks to DC points..  At least, that's what we were told.


----------



## CPNY

regatta333 said:


> You had to buy a minimum of 1,000 DC points to be able to buy into this hybrid product which would enable you to elect (on an annual basis) to convert your Vistana weeks to DC points..  At least, that's what we were told.


I am doubtful that one would have to buy points to be eligible to elect to convert. 

My thought is as long as the Vistana VOI is enrolled fully in the VSN (eligible to convert to bonvoy points) then they would be able to elect to play in the Destination Club Exchange. What May happen is, come June they stop selling Flex options and all unsold flex inventory is put into the DC exchange. Going forward all sales will be sold as DC points. Current Flex owners in the VSN can still book their flex inventory 12-8 months then at 8 months all other VSN resorts. MVC members would have access to the unsold flex inventory in the DC 13-12 months out as well as access to the VSN inventory that owners elected to convert prior to the deadline they set. If you’re a VSN owner and you don’t elect to exchange in the DC, then you continue to use the ownership as it is being used today. Others who know the legality of the trusts can weigh in on whether this is even possible.


----------



## kozykritter

regatta333 said:


> Sales rep we met with on a recent trip to Ko'Olina just contacted me.  He confirmed the previously mentioned conversion for Westin Kierland at 4,050 DC points for a 2BD platinum season week.  He said that during January the Marriott values for Arizona were lower, so that it was averaged.  Still seems that this was undervalued in comparison to the Marriott property.
> 
> We were prepared to pay the $19K it would have cost to buy 1,500 DC points for the flexibility of converting our 2 platinum Kierland weeks, but at this conversion rate, I honestly cannot see the value of ever electing to convert these weeks.  And having 1,500 standalone DC points is certainly not worth $19K.


Is this an unretro'd resale week or a developer purchased/requalified week?


----------



## regatta333

kozykritter said:


> Is this an unretro'd resale week or a developer purchased/requalified week?



They are two resale weeks.


----------



## bogey21

Things have gotten so complicated from when I bought my first Marriott TS, a pre-construction Sabal Palms Week.  Thing were so simple then and Marriott Customer Service was a joy to deal with...

George


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> I am doubtful that one would have to buy points to be eligible to elect to convert.
> 
> My thought is as long as the Vistana VOI is enrolled fully in the VSN (eligible to convert to bonvoy points) then they would be able to elect to play in the Destination Club Exchange. What May happen is, come June they stop selling Flex options and all unsold flex inventory is put into the DC exchange. Going forward all sales will be sold as DC points. Current Flex owners in the VSN can still book their flex inventory 12-8 months then at 8 months all other VSN resorts. MVC members would have access to the unsold flex inventory in the DC 13-12 months out as well as access to the VSN inventory that owners elected to convert prior to the deadline they set. If you’re a VSN owner and you don’t elect to exchange in the DC, then you continue to use the ownership as it is being used today. Others who know the legality of the trusts can weigh in on whether this is even possible.


I noticed in one of the images posted to the Facebook group that there is a footnote (1) beside "Vistana SIgnature Network" in 
_Members of the Vistana Signature Network1 will first need to elect to receive Club Points to travel ito a Marriott Vacation Club Resort or property _in the small print. I couldn't find additional small print to indicate what that (1) actually is referencing. Perhaps resale mandatory restrictions on VSN membership?
It is small and blurry, but wonder what that refers to?


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I noticed in one of the images posted to the Facebook group that there is a footnote (1) beside "Vistana SIgnature Network" in
> _Members of the Vistana Signature Network1 will first need to elect to receive Club Points to travel ito a Marriott Vacation Club Resort or property _in the small print. I couldn't find additional small print to indicate what that (1) actually is referencing. Perhaps resale mandatory restrictions on VSN membership?
> It is small and blurry, but wonder what that refers to?
> View attachment 50080


I THINK that’s exactly what that means. I don’t think mandatory resales will be eligible to be elected to convert. The same way we aren’t eligible to convert to bonvoy points. I’d expect the unit needs to be retro back into the VSN. This will enable them to sell more points to one of their biggest source of revenue…. Owners who have already spent a ton of money in the past. As we know Many timeshare owners sign on the dotted line to buy more without any clue why. But I can’t see retro’d or developer purchased VOI owners having to buy anything additional. I can’t see them needing to buy a minimum amount of DC points just to elect to convert their existing Vistana VOI. 


I’m just hoping there is some legal issue that keeps Harborside in the VSN only.


----------



## michael49

So far it appears that all the discussion is "What's in it for Vistana/Sheraton owners". 
What about Marriott owners (weeks and/or points)? Or have I missed something?


----------



## dioxide45

michael49 said:


> So far it appears that all the discussion is "What's in it for Vistana/Sheraton owners".
> What about Marriott owners (weeks and/or points)? Or have I missed something?


I think the biggest change will be for Vistana owners. That said, it will help MVC owners too as they will have the opportunity to exchange into Westin and Sheraton resort with DC points. Inventory will depend on how many Vistana owners actually elect Club Points with their week or Flex ownership.


----------



## VacationForever

michael49 said:


> So far it appears that all the discussion is "What's in it for Vistana/Sheraton owners".
> What about Marriott owners (weeks and/or points)? Or have I missed something?


I believe that if you own a resale and unenrolled MVC week, nothing changes.  If you have enrolled weeks (and you elect points for the year) and DC points, then you can trade into Vistana resorts via internal exchange system.


----------



## CPNY

michael49 said:


> So far it appears that all the discussion is "What's in it for Vistana/Sheraton owners".
> What about Marriott owners (weeks and/or points)? Or have I missed something?


That makes sense. Remember this was an acquisition so there is a lot of uncertainty for vistana owners. Vistana owners generally like what they have. We have seen changes since the take over and many are not favorable. What would change for Marriott owners?


----------



## dsmrp

CPNY said:


> I THINK that’s exactly what that means. I don’t think mandatory resales will be eligible to be elected to convert. The same way we aren’t eligible to convert to bonvoy points. I’d expect the unit needs to be retro back into the VSN. This will enable them to sell more points to one of their biggest source of revenue…. Owners who have already spent a ton of money in the past. As we know Many timeshare owners sign on the dotted line to buy more without any clue why. But I can’t see retro’d or developer purchased VOI owners having to buy anything additional. I can’t see them needing to buy a minimum amount of DC points just to elect to convert their existing Vistana VOI.
> 
> 
> I’m just hoping there is some legal issue that keeps Harborside in the VSN only.



+1,  I agree come June, Marriott will say mandatory resale owners will need to buy DC points in order for their vistana star options to convert to DC points.  In this 'soft' period until then, maybe
still selling Flex as an alternate conversion method.

This is consistent with what Marriott is still selling for the Hyatt Portfolio program.
Resale (HRC) owners (who are mostly points based anyway) would need to purchase 660 portfolio points, at nearly $14K, in order to elect annually to have their resale points participate/exchange as portfolio like points.  No conversion ratio needed, as it is 1:1 HRC to HPP point.


----------



## dougp26364

dioxide45 said:


> I think the biggest change will be for Vistana owners. That said, it will help MVC owners too as they will have the opportunity to exchange into Westin and Sheraton resort with DC points. Inventory will depend on how many Vistana owners actually elect Club Points with their week or Flex ownership.



If MVW makes it either free to current owners (hard to believe) or very inexpensive, say $295 to convert developer purchase weeks, they’ll probably enroll a lot of ILG owners. There’s a lot more variety with MVW and having the option could be a huge benefit down the road. I don’t see the ILG resort options ever growing beyond what they are now.

If MVW requires a 1,000 or 1,500 new point purchase to join, it will take longer,  it I still think they’ll get a pretty high number of owners to eventually join, but it will take 5-10 years instead of 1-2.

So, which way would sales want it to go? Force a purchase of a small number of points now vs hope for larger sales down the road after ILG owners see that their options to book internally aren’t growing? If I were a betting man, I think they’ll require a small point package purchase


----------



## CPNY

dougp26364 said:


> If MVW makes it either free to current owners (hard to believe) or very inexpensive, say $295 to convert developer purchase weeks, they’ll probably enroll a lot of ILG owners. There’s a lot more variety with MVW and having the option could be a huge benefit down the road. I don’t see the ILG resort options ever growing beyond what they are now.
> 
> If MVW requires a 1,000 or 1,500 new point purchase to join, it will take longer,  it I still think they’ll get a pretty high number of owners to eventually join, but it will take 5-10 years instead of 1-2.
> 
> So, which way would sales want it to go? Force a purchase of a small number of points now vs hope for larger sales down the road after ILG owners see that their options to book internally aren’t growing? If I were a betting man, I think they’ll require a small point package purchase


I expect a an election fee similar to banking or exchange fees, but not a pure buy in or enrollment fee like they did back in 2010. They want to dangle the opportunity for people to cross book. They are expecting a ton of new customers to sell to. The “you need more” sales pitch at every owners update will generate a lot more revenue.


----------



## mjm1

dougp26364 said:


> If MVW makes it either free to current owners (hard to believe) or very inexpensive, say $295 to convert developer purchase weeks, they’ll probably enroll a lot of ILG owners. There’s a lot more variety with MVW and having the option could be a huge benefit down the road. I don’t see the ILG resort options ever growing beyond what they are now.
> 
> If MVW requires a 1,000 or 1,500 new point purchase to join, it will take longer,  it I still think they’ll get a pretty high number of owners to eventually join, but it will take 5-10 years instead of 1-2.
> 
> So, which way would sales want it to go? Force a purchase of a small number of points now vs hope for larger sales down the road after ILG owners see that their options to book internally aren’t growing? If I were a betting man, I think they’ll require a small point package purchase





CPNY said:


> I expect a an election fee similar to banking or exchange fees, but not a pure buy in or enrollment fee like they did back in 2010. They want to dangle the opportunity for people to cross book. They are expecting a ton of new customers to sell to. The “you need more” sales pitch at every owners update will generate a lot more revenue.



I agree with Doug and think an upfront fee to enroll is more likely. The Destination Club does not have various fees for transactions, just an annual club dues based on the owner’s level of membership. I don’t see them going away from that concept.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## dioxide45

dougp26364 said:


> If MVW makes it either free to current owners (hard to believe) or very inexpensive, say $295 to convert developer purchase weeks, they’ll probably enroll a lot of ILG owners. There’s a lot more variety with MVW and having the option could be a huge benefit down the road. I don’t see the ILG resort options ever growing beyond what they are now.
> 
> If MVW requires a 1,000 or 1,500 new point purchase to join, it will take longer,  it I still think they’ll get a pretty high number of owners to eventually join, but it will take 5-10 years instead of 1-2.
> 
> So, which way would sales want it to go? Force a purchase of a small number of points now vs hope for larger sales down the road after ILG owners see that their options to book internally aren’t growing? If I were a betting man, I think they’ll require a small point package purchase


From some reports out of the sales office, there won't be a buy in fee. Shocking, but I wouldn't expect sales to say there is no buy in fee if there really was one. So it seems enrollment for qualified Vistana weeks won't require additional purchase, but there may still be an enrollment fee. What will it cost annually to elect points? That may be free or have a fee. Right now, the VSN fee comes at a lower cost than the annual DC fee. Perhaps in order to elect you pay a fee that makes up the difference?

Sales will of course try the old sales trick of "you need trust points to access all the great inventory" or "you need a hybrid account". Or they will sell, "book the Oceanfront view by just adding a thousand Club/Flex points and combine with what you own to book OF". You know, all that same garbage.


----------



## VacationForever

I just cannot see Vistana qualified weeks and Flex points requiring any sort of fees to "convert" to MVC DC points.  The question is how much point purchase is required to "qualify" Vistana resale weeks and Flex points.


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> I just cannot see Vistana qualified weeks and Flex points requiring any sort of fees to "convert" to MVC DC points.  The question is how much point purchase is required to "qualify" Vistana resale weeks and Flex points.


Another question is, will Vistana continue to sell their product while Marriott sells DC Trust points? If Vistana continues to sell Flex, then I suspect it will be the $10K to requalify one Vistana ownership and $5K for each additional. This is how they are currently requalifying Vistana unqualified weeks.


----------



## Sicnarf

Correct, you won't be able to book high demand units that are in the Trust and not yet released to the DC Exchange unless you own Trust points.


----------



## dioxide45

Sicnarf said:


> Correct, you won't be able to book high demand units that are in the Trust and not yet released to the DC Exchange unless you own Trust points.


That is true, but the question is, at least for the Vistana trusts, they don't really contain a lot of high value units. In order for Vistana units to get to the MVC Exchange, it will require a VIstana owner to actually elect their week or points for Club Points. Most Marriott Trust inventory makes it into the MVC Trust pretty quickly. So I think for a while, Vistana availability in the new scheme will be fairly limited. THey will need to entice Vistana owners to elect Club Points, thus why I think they will go the route of no fees to enroll or elect.


----------



## Mowogo

dioxide45 said:


> That is true, but the question is, at least for the Vistana trusts, they don't really contain a lot of high value units. In order for Vistana units to get to the MVC Exchange, it will require a VIstana owner to actually elect their week or points for Club Points. Most Marriott Trust inventory makes it into the MVC Trust pretty quickly. So I think for a while, Vistana availability in the new scheme will be fairly limited. THey will need to entice Vistana owners to elect Club Points, thus why I think they will go the route of no fees to enroll or elect.


And it wouldn’t be too hard to just align the annual membership fee so that it really is just DC being another exchange option within VSN if qualified


----------



## dioxide45

Mowogo said:


> And it wouldn’t be too hard to just align the annual membership fee so that it really is just DC being another exchange option within VSN if qualified


I would agree, but how does it work exactly? Right now everyone is still a VSN member. You get DC owner benefits, but it seems you are still a VSN member. If they align the fee, a one week owner will end up paying more than they do now, even if they never elect Club Points. The minimum DC fee is $215 where the one week VSN fee is only $155.


----------



## Mowogo

dioxide45 said:


> I would agree, but how does it work exactly? Right now everyone is still a VSN member. You get DC owner benefits, but it seems you are still a VSN member. If they align the fee, a one week owner will end up paying more than they do now, even if they never elect Club Points. The minimum DC fee is $215 where the one week VSN fee is only $155.



Any time you greatly increase the access on this scale is an opportunity to reprice, and by updating the VSN fee you don’t have to overcome the upsell roadblock to get people to convert to DC. And yes it hurts those that never exchange, but they are going to get their money from everyone for this somehow. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CPNY

mjm1 said:


> I agree with Doug and think an upfront fee to enroll is more likely. The Destination Club does not have various fees for transactions, just an annual club dues based on the owner’s level of membership. I don’t see them going away from that concept.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike


Correct, the election fee would be for the vistana owners in the vistana side. If we are assuming the destination club is the program for all then of course Marriott owners wouldn’t pay to book a Sheraton or better Westin property than they own. Although Marriott owners should pay an upgrade fee when booking westins lol


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Correct, the election fee would be for the vistana owners in the vistana side. If we are assuming the destination club is the program for all then of course Marriott owners wouldn’t pay to book a Sheraton or better Westin property than they own. Although Marriott owners should pay an upgrade fee when booking westins lol


Their upgrade fee should be with more points. We will have to wait and see what the Vistana DC point charts look like.


----------



## jabberwocky

CPNY said:


> What May happen is, come June they stop selling Flex options and all unsold flex inventory is put into the DC exchange. Going forward all sales will be sold as DC points. Current Flex owners in the VSN can still book their flex inventory 12-8 months then at 8 months all other VSN resorts. MVC members would have access to the unsold flex inventory in the DC 13-12 months out as well as access to the VSN inventory that owners elected to convert prior to the deadline they set.


I think you are right that they will start putting unsold flex into the DC Trust. But I’m failing to see how MVC members could book a week at 13 months when most Vistana resorts don’t allow bookings for the underlying deeds until 12 months prior. Those rules are part of the underlying timeshare association covenants and rules - not VSN. MVC can’t just allow a change in the booking window without having to change the underlying covenants and rules for each timeshare association.


----------



## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> I think you are right that they will start putting unsold flex into the DC Trust. But I’m failing to see how MVC members could book a week at 13 months when most Vistana resorts don’t allow bookings for the underlying deeds until 12 months prior. Those rules are part of the underlying timeshare association covenants and rules - not VSN. MVC can’t just allow a change in the booking window without having to change the underlying covenants and rules for each timeshare association.


If it’s unsold inventory that Marriott controls, they can make it available in the Dc exchange for those Marriott owners who are eligible to book at 13 months. Same way they can book the Marriott inventory that’s in the exchange at that time. Or am I messing up points and weeks? I though higher level Marriott owners in the DC can book at 13 months


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> That is true, but the question is, at least for the Vistana trusts, they don't really contain a lot of high value units. In order for Vistana units to get to the MVC Exchange, it will require a VIstana owner to actually elect their week or points for Club Points. Most Marriott Trust inventory makes it into the MVC Trust pretty quickly. So I think for a while, Vistana availability in the new scheme will be fairly limited. THey will need to entice Vistana owners to elect Club Points, thus why I think they will go the route of no fees to enroll or elect.


This is a very valid and important point. It is also something I don’t think the average MVC owners appreciates. 

For example, there are currently zero Westin OF Maui units in Flex. Vistana has found it more profitable to resell these as deeded weeks rather than put them into the WFlex trust.

The upshot of this is that for an MVC owner to get access to these OF units, a current Westin OF owner will have to elect into MVC - unless Vistana starts picking up units via ROFR and putting them in the DC trust.  Given the proposed DC points exchange rates being mentioned, I don’t know why I would ever do so (I certainly won’t).   The values within VSN are much superior than a similar DC point booking IMO.


----------



## CPNY

jabberwocky said:


> This is a very valid and important point. It is also something I don’t think the average MVC owners appreciates.
> 
> For example, there are currently zero Westin OF Maui units in Flex. Vistana has found it more profitable to resell these as deeded weeks rather than put them into the WFlex trust.
> 
> The upshot of this is that for an MVC owner to get access to these OF units, a current Westin OF owner will have to elect into MVC - unless Vistana starts picking up units via ROFR and putting them in the DC trust.  Given the proposed DC points exchange rates being mentioned, I don’t know why I would ever do so (I certainly won’t).   The values within VSN are much superior than a similar DC point booking IMO.


I expect MVW to get aggressive with ROFR


----------



## jabberwocky

CPNY said:


> If it’s unsold inventory that Marriott controls, they can make it available in the Dc exchange for those Marriott owners who are eligible to book at 13 months. Same way they can book the Marriott inventory that’s in the exchange at that time. Or am I messing up points and weeks? I though higher level Marriott owners in the DC can book at 13 months


Higher level Marriott owners can book at 13 months; however, I believe the underlying deeds can also be booked for multiple consecutive weeks at 13 months if you own multiple deeds.

That isn’t the case with most Vistana resorts.It is pretty much always 12 months (some fixed week deeds automatically book earlier).  So any booking at 13 months via MVC would be prospective and not have an actual “legal” underlying booking at the resort.


----------



## jabberwocky

CPNY said:


> I expect MVW to get aggressive with ROFR


I agree.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> I expect MVW to get aggressive with ROFR





jabberwocky said:


> I agree.


The problem is that they only have ROFR at a few resorts. They could up their game in Maui, but I suspect that they will offer a lot of points to Maui weeks to convert to Club Points. Probably in line or a bit higher than Marriott offers MOC owners in the new towers. A 2BR oceanfront gets almost 7,500 Club Points. I suspect the Westin properties may get closer to 8,000. That may not ba a good value to the astute Tugger, but most others would just see that they can score several weeks in DC for that amount of points and elect Club Points.


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## SueDonJ

jabberwocky said:


> I think you are right that they will start putting unsold flex into the DC Trust. But I’m failing to see how MVC members could book a week at 13 months when most Vistana resorts don’t allow bookings for the underlying deeds until 12 months prior. Those rules are part of the underlying timeshare association covenants and rules - not VSN. MVC can’t just allow a change in the booking window without having to change the underlying covenants and rules for each timeshare association.



Like every other floating timeshare system there's a "subject to availability" restriction on whatever intervals can be booked through the DC Trust and the DC Exchange Company, and we've not seen any evidence that MVW has tried to override the existing rules of Weeks inventory after it's made available via the Trust or Exchange Company. If the underlying rules for Vistana intervals are strictly worded such that they can't be released prior to a 12-mos window then I'd expect they won't be made available prior to that window (regardless of any DC members' access to earlier booking windows.)

If that's the case then of course many DC members might not understand the technical difference, and Sales definitely won't get into the weeds of it, but it's certain that TUG members will notice it in practice.


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## SandyPGravel

Is there a MVC for dummies so I can understand what options I may have? 

I realize no one knows all the details yet, but I'm worried I'll do something stupid with what I own. 

I only own at Westin St John, one Plat + fixed week fixed unit, and one Plat float week. I'm getting the vibe that my P+ fixed is valuable. 

Is electing DC like exchanging in VSN or is it a permanent thing that I would be relinquishing my unit forever?

I have been happy for a while bc I understood the ins & outs of VSE, now I'm back to kindergarten. 

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk


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## KACTravels

SandyPGravel said:


> Is there a MVC for dummies so I can understand what options I may have?


I‘ve been reading the stickies above.








						Marriott Abound (formerly Destination Club) Points-System FAQ & Guide
					

** During 2022 Marriott Vacations Worldwide announced in Investor Meetings that Vistana timeshares would be integrated into the Marriott points system, and, that the Destination Club would be renamed Abound. After all details have been officially announced, this FAQ will be reviewed/edited to...




					tugbbs.com


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## dougp26364

SandyPGravel said:


> Is there a MVC for dummies so I can understand what options I may have?
> 
> I realize no one knows all the details yet, but I'm worried I'll do something stupid with what I own.
> 
> I only own at Westin St John, one Plat + fixed week fixed unit, and one Plat float week. I'm getting the vibe that my P+ fixed is valuable.
> 
> Is electing DC like exchanging in VSN or is it a permanent thing that I would be relinquishing my unit forever?
> 
> I have been happy for a while bc I understood the ins & outs of VSE, now I'm back to kindergarten.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk



Welcome to timeshare. A place and ownership where timeshare developers will try to always keep you in “kindergarten” as a way to get you into owner updates and sell you more.

We’ve owned timeshare for nearly 25 years. We’ve gone from fixed week/fixed unit to floating weeks to deed weeks with points values to trust ownership with no assigned resort, week or season. TUG is your best bet for good intel on what’s happening, the latest rumors and best ways to maximize your ownership. There’s a great thread on the Vistana section by DeniseM with some answers from an inside source the will provide a little clarity. Until they put the official program and rules in writing, we’re all just guessing. Even thought the sales staff now has some semi-firm explanation of what’s about to happen, I still don’t trust what they say as the program hasn’t been officially released. The expect release date in June of this year.

Just do like I do and follow the threads on TUG. Right now it’s the best anyone can do


----------



## dioxide45

SandyPGravel said:


> Is there a MVC for dummies so I can understand what options I may have?
> 
> I realize no one knows all the details yet, but I'm worried I'll do something stupid with what I own.
> 
> I only own at Westin St John, one Plat + fixed week fixed unit, and one Plat float week. I'm getting the vibe that my P+ fixed is valuable.
> 
> Is electing DC like exchanging in VSN or is it a permanent thing that I would be relinquishing my unit forever?
> 
> I have been happy for a while bc I understood the ins & outs of VSE, now I'm back to kindergarten.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk


Based on answers provided by what appears to be someone in sales in a thread in the Vistana forum, this is what we know. These answers seem to be from a sales contact Denise has that was going through training videos on the new program.

Your WSJ week will = a fixed number of Club Points
You can elect to receive that number of Club Points annually or you can use VSN or you could use your home resort.
You elect to receive Club Points each year, it is not permanent and you are not relinquishing forever.


----------



## emeryjre

Regarding inventory available to book at under the new program.  Wasn't it said by the "source" that eligible inventory would come from Westin/Sheraton owners electing to convert their VOI for DC points?  There was no mention of any other inventory being available to book other than converted VOI's


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## dioxide45

emeryjre said:


> Regarding inventory available to book at under the new program.  Wasn't it said by the "source" that eligible inventory would come from Westin/Sheraton owners electing to convert their VOI for DC points?  There was no mention of any other inventory being available to book other than converted VOI's


That is my understanding and that is how it works on the Marriott weeks side. The only way inventory gets in from Marriott weeks is when owners convert their week to Club Points. There can be other ways that MVC can manipulate the inventory inside the exchange company. Of course for Marriott, the DC trust is a big owner of inventory and also deposits most of its inventory to the MVC Exchange Company. I don't think this will or can happen on the Vistana side of things since the VSN layer also exists along with the Flex Trusts and they won't want Flex owners to lose the ability to trade their Home Options in VSN.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> That is my understanding and that is how it works on the Marriott weeks side. The only way inventory gets in from Marriott weeks is when owners convert their week to Club Points. There can be other ways that MVC can manipulate the inventory inside the exchange company. Of course for Marriott, the DC trust is a big owner of inventory and also deposits most of its inventory to the MVC Exchange Company. I don't think this will or can happen on the Vistana side of things since the VSN layer also exists along with the Flex Trusts and they won't want Flex owners to lose the ability to trade their Home Options in VSN.


If Marriott takes back a vistana unit as part of a sale, does that unit stay in the Trust it was originally in or does it go somewhere else until Marriott decides where to put it? 

I can see all of these owner updates going forward consisting of “give us your vistana week and upgrade to DC points where you’ll have direct access to all resorts”. That will be more vistana inventory for Marriott to fund the DC exchange. Knowing how Marriott operates, we know there will be many lies and manipulation upon its owners to buy more. I expect Marriott to increase its revenue by large margins in the coming years.


----------



## divenski

dioxide45 said:


> That is my understanding and that is how it works on the Marriott weeks side. The only way inventory gets in from Marriott weeks is when owners convert their week to Club Points. There can be other ways that MVC can manipulate the inventory inside the exchange company. Of course for Marriott, the DC trust is a big owner of inventory and also deposits most of its inventory to the MVC Exchange Company. I don't think this will or can happen on the Vistana side of things since the VSN layer also exists along with the Flex Trusts and they won't want Flex owners to lose the ability to trade their Home Options in VSN.



Another likely way is through Interval deposits of Marriott weeks. Remember that MAR owns II too... Or is that what you meant by exchange company?


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> If Marriott takes back a vistana unit as part of a sale, does that unit stay in the Trust it was originally in or does it go somewhere else until Marriott decides where to put it?
> 
> I can see all of these owner updates going forward consisting of “give us your vistana week and upgrade to DC points where you’ll have direct access to all resorts”. That will be more vistana inventory for Marriott to fund the DC exchange. Knowing how Marriott operates, we know there will be many lies and manipulation upon its owners to buy more. I expect Marriott to increase its revenue by large margins in the coming years.


In the time between a deed back and conveyance to a trust, Marriott owns that inventory. It generally won't be available for owner reservations as they rent it on Marriott.com. During this period of time, they will be paying the annual MFs for the week. At some point in time they will actually want to sell the points associated with the underlying inventory and they will convey it to the trust. Based on the rep saying that they will begin selling DC points at some point, I would expect them to stop putting Vistana inventory in the Flex trusts and start adding it to the DC Trust.

I don't see them doing any kind of trade ins. That doesn't seem to be Marriott's MO. They may up the deed back program. When they first rolled out DC, they were actually doing buybacks. They may go that route to try to get more inventory into DC Trust that they can control who it goes to instead of relying on Vistana weeks and Flex owners to elect Club Points.


----------



## dioxide45

divenski said:


> Another likely way is through Interval deposits of Marriott weeks. Remember that MAR owns II too... Or is that what you meant by exchange company?


MVC Exchange Company is different from Interval. We do have some information that would lead us to think Marriott can pull inventory from II to make available for points reservations. We don't really know how that works, but it was mentioned early on in the DC rollout in 2010. We suspect the MVC Exchange Company and/or DC Trust is also a member of II and can exchange weeks between themselves. How that works is anyone's guess since MVC isn't very transparent about how they handle the inventory on the back end.


----------



## dougp26364

emeryjre said:


> Regarding inventory available to book at under the new program.  Wasn't it said by the "source" that eligible inventory would come from Westin/Sheraton owners electing to convert their VOI for DC points?  There was no mention of any other inventory being available to book other than converted VOI's





dioxide45 said:


> That is my understanding and that is how it works on the Marriott weeks side. The only way inventory gets in from Marriott weeks is when owners convert their week to Club Points. There can be other ways that MVC can manipulate the inventory inside the exchange company. Of course for Marriott, the DC trust is a big owner of inventory and also deposits most of its inventory to the MVC Exchange Company. I don't think this will or can happen on the Vistana side of things since the VSN layer also exists along with the Flex Trusts and they won't want Flex owners to lose the ability to trade their Home Options in VSN.



I could be wrong, but I seem to remember reading the source as saying any unsold inventory once the deal is done will become part of the trust. At that time they will begin to sell DC points only. That indicates to me that whatever inventory is currently held by ILG will be available to book thru DC points.

I remember when they started the Destination Trust program up with MVW the speculation was that only resorts with heavy unsold inventory like Crystal Shores, the Sunset Tour at Oceana Palms and Grand Château would be widely available. However I recall a decent selection of inventory from which to choose. To this day some of the older resorts on HHI, which received very few points in exchange for their weeks, are difficult to book using points. There just isn’t any value for the owners of those weeks in the DC so their owners didn’t join and don’t deposit. Most of those older HHI resorts were sold out LONG before the trust. I suspect the same may be true with ILG. Low value weeks just won’t get deposited as often.

It’s going to take some time for availability to stabilize. If MVW doesn’t charge a joiner or opt in fee like they did with their own owners, there may be a pretty decent flood of ILG inventory to the pool early on.

Reading FB and TUG shows me the differences between informed owners (TUG) and the uninformed (FB Groups).When we’re at a resort I’m always amazed at the ignorance of the majority of owners as to what they own, how they can use it and the silly mistakes they make that leads to their dissatisfaction. One woman was ticked off because she was told she could exchange into Hawaii. The representative was having an impossible time explaining that requesting that particular exchange at less than 90 days was nearly impossible. She couldn’t understand the concept of timeSHARE and first come first reserved. I’ve also seen owners ticked off about their room assignments who were exchangers. They couldn’t understand owners at that resort staying on their owned time had higher priority than they did with their two weeks of ownership at some other resort.

Since TUG is a unique and rather small percentage of timeshare owners, I suspect sales and marketing will have a field day signing up the masses and inventory will be more abundant than if everyone read TUG and better understood how to maximize their ownership and minimize their costs.


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## CPNY

dougp26364 said:


> Since TUG is a unique and rather small percentage of timeshare owners, I suspect sales and marketing will have a field day signing up the masses and inventory will be more abundant than if everyone read TUG and better understood how to maximize their ownership and minimize their costs.



Yeah, sales is going to make a killing on this. So many will be either buying more or trading in what they have to “upgrade”.


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## dougp26364

CPNY said:


> Yeah, sales is going to make a killing on this. So many will be either buying more or trading in what they have to “upgrade”.



when we do an owner update or, as Hilton seems to be calling it now, a “portfolio review”, I spend about as much time listening in on the other tables as I do our own salesman. I am simply amazed at the ignorance of what they actually own from current owners doing their updates, how easily manipulated they can be and how readily they’ll jump head long into a very bad deal.

I was listening to a young couple in Breckenridge last year. The salesman was trying to sell them a studio unit for $15,000 and the wife was ready to jump headlong into the contract. She was smart enough to call her dad, but I never heard the outcome to see if her dad was smart enough to tell her to cool her jets and do some research first.


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## CPNY

dougp26364 said:


> when we do an owner update or, as Hilton seems to be calling it now, a “portfolio review”, I spend about as much time listening in on the other tables as I do our own salesman. I am simply amazed at the ignorance of what a timeshare is from current owners doing their updates, how easily manipulated they can be and how ready they’ll jump head long into a very bad deal.


I DO THE SAME! Its insane how people sign onto something they have no idea what they are signing.


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## dougp26364

CPNY said:


> I DO THE SAME! Its insane how people sign onto something they have no idea what they are signing.



I’ve stopped trying to educate owners around the pool or hot tubs when we strike up a conversation. It just isn’t worth the effort and there’s always a ton of resistance. Instead I mention TUG as a source to help the, maximize their ownership. Who knows how many actually take my advice. I will answer questions. I just nod my head when they tell me how great exchanging for BonVoy points or a cruise is with timeshare.


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## CPNY

dougp26364 said:


> I’ve stopped trying to educate owners around the pool or hot tubs when we strike up a conversation. It just isn’t worth the effort and there’s always a ton of resistance. Instead I mention TUG as a source to help the, maximize their ownership. Who knows how many actually take my advice. I will answer questions. I just nod my head when they tell me how great exchanging for BonVoy points or a cruise is with timeshare.


I crack up when they boast “at first they wanted $30,000 but I said no and they came back with another offer that I refused. In the end I got them down to $26,000, I got a great deal”. I always follow up with have you ever heard of TUG? I know the answer is no before they answer. I then tell them to rescind then join TUG immediately lol.

(That happened at the surf club in Aruba)


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## dioxide45

Unfortunately online user forums are used by a very small percentage of the overall population. I am sure a lot more people read TUG forums than actually actively participate. For many, timeshare is way down their list of important things to concern themselves with. There are some statistics from research out there that indicate most people will forget half of what you told them within an hour, even more within a day and most of it within a week. Mention something and for the most part it doesn't stick for long. For many, they buy timeshare spontaneously and also think about it and make their reservations spontaneously. That is why so many people can't make the reservations they want, because they think about their reservations in January for spring break.


----------



## cbyrne1174

I find Disney owners are the least knowledgable. Even the ones that know about resale contracts are still oblivious that they can do the exact same thing with every other major company. They'll spend like $20,000 (buy in cost) just to be able to spend 1 week a year on site at WDW in a 1 bedroom unit and think it's an amazing deal because they got it resale. Sure it's cheaper then paying rack rates for deluxe rooms, but they don't bother researching other companies before taking the dive. When you look at average salaries across the US, maybe about 5% of the population can honestly afford those price tags without it affecting their retirement. They are fanatics and only want Disney brand and everything else is trash. It makes literally 0 sense because it's not for the kids. Marriott's World Center and Bonnet Creek are the resorts closest to WDW that have the best amenities for kids hands down. 

People online always point out my opinion is because I'm local to WDW and get to go whenever I want, but honestly let's look at Hawaii..... If you do the math of trading into Marriott's Ko Olina by using the studio portion of a lock off, it ends up being like $100/night. The Ko Olina owners like to deposit their studio portions into II for a 2nd week because of it's TDI, so it's pretty easy to score a studio there with an OGS. If you price the cost of staying at Aulani using resale Saratoga Springs points, it ends up being $250 a night for a studio there. Is Aulani worth 2.5x the price of Marriott's Ko Olina for the exact same room type? I really don't think it is. As a result, when I go to Oahu, I will find a $100/night studio at Marriott with my lock off, then add on MAYBE 3 nights at Aulani for variety. Ironically, the 3 nights at Aulani is more expensive than the entire week at Ko Olina, but most DVC owners are blinded by the brand to see the difference in value. 

This pattern isn't just with timeshares. People are just bad at making financial decisions in general. Look at the current real estate market blood bath. I've been holding off becoming a first time home buyer because I know that buying when rates are high is safer than when rates are low because low rates artifically inflates the value of the home. I've been at the point where I can afford to be a home owner for a few years now (I'm 32), but being able to afford the payments/maintenance is not the same thing as being able to afford to be stuck in a home that is actually worth 100k less than what you paid for it.


----------



## Mowogo

dioxide45 said:


> That is my understanding and that is how it works on the Marriott weeks side. The only way inventory gets in from Marriott weeks is when owners convert their week to Club Points. There can be other ways that MVC can manipulate the inventory inside the exchange company. Of course for Marriott, the DC trust is a big owner of inventory and also deposits most of its inventory to the MVC Exchange Company. I don't think this will or can happen on the Vistana side of things since the VSN layer also exists along with the Flex Trusts and they won't want Flex owners to lose the ability to trade their Home Options in VSN.


Figure that any unsold flex inventory is going to become the basis for DC Exchange even before flex owners start opting in.  Depending on how manipulative they want to be with inventory is how much/little would be available to those that choose to convert vs those who do not. Converting Vistana elites to the level that gives 13 month access to DC booking can definitely encourage some more inventory trading if members want specific weeks. Retail owners might convert to DC because they are told converting is like getting access to VSN early.  And if you have enough to be elite, it might actually be the smart play, especially if a Flex owner.


----------



## Mowogo

cbyrne1174 said:


> I find Disney owners are the least knowledgable. Even the ones that know about resale contracts are still oblivious that they can do the exact same thing with every other major company. They'll spend like $20,000 (buy in cost) just to be able to spend 1 week a year on site at WDW in a 1 bedroom unit and think it's an amazing deal because they got it resale. Sure it's cheaper then paying rack rates for deluxe rooms, but they don't bother researching other companies before taking the dive. When you look at average salaries across the US, maybe about 5% of the population can honestly afford those price tags without it affecting their retirement. They are fanatics and only want Disney brand and everything else is trash. It makes literally 0 sense because it's not for the kids. Marriott's World Center and Bonnet Creek are the resorts closest to WDW that have the best amenities for kids hands down.
> 
> People online always point out my opinion is because I'm local to WDW and get to go whenever I want, but honestly let's look at Hawaii..... If you do the math of trading into Marriott's Ko Olina by using the studio portion of a lock off, it ends up being like $100/night. The Ko Olina owners like to deposit their studio portions into II for a 2nd week because of it's TDI, so it's pretty easy to score a studio there with an OGS. If you price the cost of staying at Aulani using resale Saratoga Springs points, it ends up being $250 a night for a studio there. Is Aulani worth 2.5x the price of Marriott's Ko Olina for the exact same room type? I really don't think it is. As a result, when I go to Oahu, I will find a $100/night studio at Marriott with my lock off, then add on MAYBE 3 nights at Aulani for variety. Ironically, the 3 nights at Aulani is more expensive than the entire week at Ko Olina, but most DVC owners are blinded by the brand to see the difference in value.
> 
> This pattern isn't just with timeshares. People are just bad at making financial decisions in general. Look at the current real estate market blood bath. I've been holding off becoming a first time home buyer because I know that buying when rates are high is safer than when rates are low because low rates artifically inflates the value of the home. I've been at the point where I can afford to be a home owner for a few years now (I'm 32), but being able to afford the payments/maintenance is not the same thing as being able to afford to be stuck in a home that is actually worth 100k less than what you paid for it.


Disney sells the dream, and Aulani having the little Disney touches is cool, but I agree on it being nowhere near what is charged for the difference between MVC/HGVC and DVC.  Now, I will consider exchanging into DVC at the right value proposition, and using a low maintenance fee exchanger is something that I’ve done the past two years where even with the fees I am getting a 1BR at Saratoga for around $1000 Because the small on property perks are worth it as a part of a Disney vacation at that pricing for a week.


----------



## capjak

Mowogo said:


> Disney sells the dream, and Aulani having the little Disney touches is cool, but I agree on it being nowhere near what is charged for the difference between MVC/HGVC and DVC.  Now, I will consider exchanging into DVC at the right value proposition, and using a low maintenance fee eybxchanger is something that I’ve done the past two years where even with the fees I am getting a 1BR at Saratoga for around $1000 Because the small on property perks are worth it as a part of a Disney vacation at that pricing for a week.



Except you can rent out Disney for more than twice the maintenance fee and it takes less than a week.  

You can also sell your Disney for 50% more than 10 years ago resale prices have gone up that much (50%).  

I can not do either with my other timeshares (maybe WKORV-North regarding rental).


----------



## dhstache

Amazed at the incorrect information being shared. There will be no merger, combining, consolidating, etc of the 3 VC brands...Westin, Sheraton, and Marriott. Nothing of Vistana will be added to the MVC Land Trust (legally can't). There will be a new "offering"...aka Capability...to reserve cross-brand without having to use Interval. It will be processed thru the Exhange Company same as international MVC locations (the MVC Land Trust is US properties only). It will not be launched for use until after June 17. This has all been announced and discussed at MVW Earnings Calls, Seminar Panels, and SEC Filings. Anything else is pure conjecture, especially statements by Sales Personnel, whose sole job is to sell you Points using very creative language. There have been no rules, process, restrictions, or procedures issued (in fact, have had some sales people make purposeful retraction of statements). Just going to sit back and wait until something official is published.


----------



## CPNY

dhstache said:


> Amazed at the incorrect information being shared. There will be no merger, combining, consolidating, etc of the 3 VC brands...Westin, Sheraton, and Marriott. Nothing of Vistana will be added to the MVC Land Trust (legally can't). There will be a new "offering"...aka Capability...to reserve cross-brand without having to use Interval. It will be processed thru the Exhange Company same as international MVC locations (the MVC Land Trust is US properties only). It will not be launched for use until after June 17. This has all been announced and discussed at MVW Earnings Calls, Seminar Panels, and SEC Filings. Anything else is pure conjecture, especially statements by Sales Personnel, whose sole job is to sell you Points using very creative language. There have been no rules, process, restrictions, or procedures issued (in fact, have had some sales people make purposeful retraction of statements). Just going to sit back and wait until something official is published.


I don’t think anyone here is saying that they will be truly combined or consolidated into the same land trust. Who really knows but We are all in agreement that Marriott can direct the vistana inventory they control and dump it into the DC exchange (their exchange company) regardless of the trust it is in. On the back end it’s all separate but to the consumer and the way sales will spin it is “it’s combined”. The biggest concern by most is, how much inventory can Marriott strip from the VSN to put into the exchange company.


----------



## dioxide45

dhstache said:


> Amazed at the incorrect information being shared. There will be no merger, combining, consolidating, etc of the 3 VC brands...Westin, Sheraton, and Marriott. Nothing of Vistana will be added to the MVC Land Trust (legally can't). There will be a new "offering"...aka Capability...to reserve cross-brand without having to use Interval. It will be processed thru the Exhange Company same as international MVC locations (the MVC Land Trust is US properties only). It will not be launched for use until after June 17. This has all been announced and discussed at MVW Earnings Calls, Seminar Panels, and SEC Filings. Anything else is pure conjecture, especially statements by Sales Personnel, whose sole job is to sell you Points using very creative language. There have been no rules, process, restrictions, or procedures issued (in fact, have had some sales people make purposeful retraction of statements). Just going to sit back and wait until something official is published.


What are your specific sources regarding the legality? I am not exactly sure why you don't think Westin & Sheraton timeshare weeks can't be added to the land trust? Marriott added Ritz Carlton and Grand Residence properties at one time. A land trust needs to only contain real estate and since a timeshare week is real estate there is nothing preventing any timeshare brand from being put into the same land trust. They could put a house in it if they wanted to, allocate points to each night occupancy of that house and sell those points.

If they stop selling Flex, they will have to do something with any Vistana deeds taken back as well as any Flex contracts they either ROFR on or foreclose they will still have to continue selling Flex or put those somehow into the DC land trust. Flex certainly can't go into the DC trust, but no reason Westin and Sheraton deeded weeks can't. I recall no legal filings with the SEC that would say otherwise. Perhaps you have some other sources. The earnings calls have been pretty vague as to any specific details.


----------



## Maui.Hawaii

Westin Flex owner here that just attended a Marriott Vacation Club presentation.  They told me that the merger will take place by July 1st and I can continue to use my Westin Flex as it currently exists after the merger.  However, if I want to ever reserve any of the 73 properties currently in the MVC Trust, I will need to purchase four 250 point intervals (1,000 MVC points) to "join" the MVC Trust.  Now when we bought the Westin Flex plan the salesman told me that once the merger was completed I would have access to all the Marriott properties.  I guess he didn't lie, he just didn't tell me I would have to pay more money to buy more points in order to access the MVC properties!

So I need to buy 1,000 MVC points to be a part of the MVC Trust but of course they are only selling a minimum of 1,500 points so I would need to buy that to have access to the current MVC Trust properties. My Westin points will exchange to MVC points at a 28.824 to 1 ratio, so my current 150,000 Westin points will get me 5,204 MVC points.  They will sell me 1,500 MVC points so I can be part of the Trust for $19,360 or $0.12907 per point. They also have said that with the 1,500 MVC points I am buying plus the 5,204 MVC points I will have from the Westin conversion, I will have a total 6,704 MVC points.  The salesman said with that many MVC points, I should buy the little bit more needed to get to the MVC VIP Executive level of 7,000 MVC points so that I will not only get into the MVC Trust but also get VIP Executive level which means I can reserve at 13 months instead of 12 months.  

So please provide feedback as what here is the truth, what is false, and what would you do?


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## Eric B

Maui.Hawaii said:


> Westin Flex owner here that just attended a Marriott Vacation Club presentation.  They told me that the merger will take place by July 1st and I can continue to use my Westin Flex as it currently exists after the merger.  However, if I want to ever reserve any of the 73 properties currently in the MVC Trust, I will need to purchase four 250 point intervals (1,000 MVC points) to "join" the MVC Trust.  Now when we bought the Westin Flex plan the salesman told me that once the merger was completed I would have access to all the Marriott properties.  I guess he didn't lie, he just didn't tell me I would have to pay more money to buy more points in order to access the MVC properties!
> 
> So I need to buy 1,000 MVC points to be a part of the MVC Trust but of course they are only selling a minimum of 1,500 points so I would need to buy that to have access to the current MVC Trust properties. My Westin points will exchange to MVC points at a 28.824 to 1 ratio, so my current 150,000 Westin points will get me 5,204 MVC points.  They will sell me 1,500 MVC points so I can be part of the Trust for $19,360 or $0.12907 per point. They also have said that with the 1,500 MVC points I am buying plus the 5,204 MVC points I will have from the Westin conversion, I will have a total 6,704 MVC points.  The salesman said with that many MVC points, I should buy the little bit more needed to get to the MVC VIP Executive level of 7,000 MVC points so that I will not only get into the MVC Trust but also get VIP Executive level which means I can reserve at 13 months instead of 12 months.
> 
> So please provide feedback as what here is the truth, what is false, and what would you do?



It's worth the paper it's printed on.  I would wait until there is an official announcement, then research and decide whether or not I really want to have the access to the MVC properties via that mechanism rather than via II, ThirdHome, etc., enough to justify the additional cost.  At this point, I'm not sure it would be worth it for that much up front and an additional set of MFs.


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## JIMinNC

dhstache said:


> Amazed at the incorrect information being shared. There will be no merger, combining, consolidating, etc of the 3 VC brands...Westin, Sheraton, and Marriott. Nothing of Vistana will be added to the MVC Land Trust (legally can't). There will be a new "offering"...aka Capability...to reserve cross-brand without having to use Interval. It will be processed thru the Exhange Company same as international MVC locations (the MVC Land Trust is US properties only). It will not be launched for use until after June 17. This has all been announced and discussed at MVW Earnings Calls, Seminar Panels, and SEC Filings. Anything else is pure conjecture, especially statements by Sales Personnel, whose sole job is to sell you Points using very creative language. There have been no rules, process, restrictions, or procedures issued (in fact, have had some sales people make purposeful retraction of statements). Just going to sit back and wait until something official is published.



I'm not sure it's necessarily true that the June 17 date is specifically relevant to when the launch date of the consolidated product is going to be. June 17 is the date of Marriott Vacations Worldwide's next Investor Day. While it's true they did mention they would be discussing the "new unified product" offering during that meeting, the focus of that discussion will be much broader and will include briefings on how a variety of their new initiatives will impact their overall business - sales growth, expense management, etc. The audience for that meeting is the investor community, Wall Street analysts, etc., so their focus is very "big picture." It's entirely possible that many of the new initiatives they will be discussing on June 17 are already in process or even already being implemented. They will just discuss on June 17 how they see those initiatives impacting the long term growth of their business. While it is certainly entirely possible they could, in fact, wait until after the June 17 meeting to divulge any more details of the combined offering, I have not heard them say anything in their earnings calls that would prevent them from announcing more details prior to that point. Steve Weisz's exact quote from the last earnings call was: 

_"We also have a lot of new things we've been working on to grow our business long term, which we will discuss in more detail during our June 17 Investor Day. From launching a new unified product combining our Westin, Marriott, and Sheraton branded products into one new offering, to investing to provide more personalized experiences for our customer, to using data analytics in new and exciting ways to further enhance our business, we are in a great position to grow our company this year, and for many years to come."_


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## kozykritter

Maui.Hawaii said:


> Westin Flex owner here that just attended a Marriott Vacation Club presentation.  They told me that the merger will take place by July 1st and I can continue to use my Westin Flex as it currently exists after the merger.  However, if I want to ever reserve any of the 73 properties currently in the MVC Trust, I will need to purchase four 250 point intervals (1,000 MVC points) to "join" the MVC Trust.  Now when we bought the Westin Flex plan the salesman told me that once the merger was completed I would have access to all the Marriott properties.  I guess he didn't lie, he just didn't tell me I would have to pay more money to buy more points in order to access the MVC properties!
> 
> So I need to buy 1,000 MVC points to be a part of the MVC Trust but of course they are only selling a minimum of 1,500 points so I would need to buy that to have access to the current MVC Trust properties. My Westin points will exchange to MVC points at a 28.824 to 1 ratio, so my current 150,000 Westin points will get me 5,204 MVC points.  They will sell me 1,500 MVC points so I can be part of the Trust for $19,360 or $0.12907 per point. They also have said that with the 1,500 MVC points I am buying plus the 5,204 MVC points I will have from the Westin conversion, I will have a total 6,704 MVC points.  The salesman said with that many MVC points, I should buy the little bit more needed to get to the MVC VIP Executive level of 7,000 MVC points so that I will not only get into the MVC Trust but also get VIP Executive level which means I can reserve at 13 months instead of 12 months.
> 
> So please provide feedback as what here is the truth, what is false, and what would you do?


What a MVC salesperson told you makes sense if they are trying to get you to buy DC points. It flies completely in the face of what a Vistana insider has shared in the Vistana form so I suggest that you go there and read all the answers that were given to user questions, if you haven't already:









						UPDATE: Marriott sales now has the merger details and they are allowed to discuss them with owners.
					

3/27/22 UPDATE: My "Source" is very knowledgeable and well-respected in the timeshare community. Anyone who thinks I would "promote" something unethical doesn't know me, or TUG very well. Rude responses will be deleted.  This thread is for two purposes  1. For Tuggers to ask brief questions.  2...




					tugbbs.com


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## CPNY

I wonder how they will handle resale DC points purchases from Vistana owners. Resale DC points count toward status levels once you pay the junk fee. I’d assume if your Vistana VOI converted to 4501 points and you purchased 2500 DC points resale, then you would be whatever level 7K would get you. Once again, resale is best


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## JIMinNC

Maui.Hawaii said:


> Westin Flex owner here that just attended a Marriott Vacation Club presentation.  They told me that the merger will take place by July 1st and I can continue to use my Westin Flex as it currently exists after the merger.  However, if I want to ever reserve any of the 73 properties currently in the MVC Trust, I will need to purchase four 250 point intervals (1,000 MVC points) to "join" the MVC Trust.  Now when we bought the Westin Flex plan the salesman told me that once the merger was completed I would have access to all the Marriott properties.  I guess he didn't lie, he just didn't tell me I would have to pay more money to buy more points in order to access the MVC properties!
> 
> So I need to buy 1,000 MVC points to be a part of the MVC Trust but of course they are only selling a minimum of 1,500 points so I would need to buy that to have access to the current MVC Trust properties. My Westin points will exchange to MVC points at a 28.824 to 1 ratio, so my current 150,000 Westin points will get me 5,204 MVC points.  They will sell me 1,500 MVC points so I can be part of the Trust for $19,360 or $0.12907 per point. They also have said that with the 1,500 MVC points I am buying plus the 5,204 MVC points I will have from the Westin conversion, I will have a total 6,704 MVC points.  The salesman said with that many MVC points, I should buy the little bit more needed to get to the MVC VIP Executive level of 7,000 MVC points so that I will not only get into the MVC Trust but also get VIP Executive level which means I can reserve at 13 months instead of 12 months.
> 
> So please provide feedback as what here is the truth, what is false, and what would you do?



The basic truth is, we do not know what the truth is...yet. The sales rep is trying to make a sale today, so just as they have done for the last 2-3 years, they are trying to say that you will need to buy a base interest in the MVC Trust to be able to reserve MVC properties. That may or may not be true. Not enough specific information has been released yet from MVC Corporate to know whether that is true or not. In fact, some other TUGgers have posted earlier in this thread that they were told recently that no purchase would be required for Westin Flex to be usable to book MVC properties. So, I would not buy anything right now based on representations made by a rep who is trying to sell you something today. Wait until MVC Corporate provides more written details on what the new program is going to look like.

One thing that I think is correct, because it's now been heard from multiple presentations by multiple TUGgers, is the 28.84 or so to 1 conversion ratio of Westin Flex to MVC Trust Points. That is being consistently reported by multiple people. So, you can probably assume that your 150,000 Westin points will translate to around 5200 MVC Points. Whether you will actually need to buy anything new to get that conversion, is not yet known for sure. If I were you, the only reason I would even consider buying any additional points right now would be if you know 100% you want to get the Executive Level benefits that require 7000 MVC points. You are short of that level now, so if you want those benefits, you will either need to buy MVC points direct from MVC or on the resale market. Resale will be much cheaper, and once you pay the $3/point initiation fee to MVC, resale points will function just like points bought from MVC - at least that's they way it has worked for the last decade or so.


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## JIMinNC

dhstache said:


> Amazed at the incorrect information being shared. There will be no merger, combining, consolidating, etc of the 3 VC brands...Westin, Sheraton, and Marriott. Nothing of Vistana will be added to the MVC Land Trust (legally can't). There will be a new "offering"...aka Capability...to reserve cross-brand without having to use Interval. It will be processed thru the Exhange Company same as international MVC locations (the MVC Land Trust is US properties only). It will not be launched for use until after June 17. This has all been announced and discussed at MVW Earnings Calls, Seminar Panels, and SEC Filings. Anything else is pure conjecture, especially statements by Sales Personnel, whose sole job is to sell you Points using very creative language. There have been no rules, process, restrictions, or procedures issued (in fact, have had some sales people make purposeful retraction of statements). Just going to sit back and wait until something official is published.



After reading through the thread linked above by @kozykritter, I think there is some seemingly correct info that we now have:

While each of the three VC brands - Westin, Sheraton, and Marriott - will retain their current branding as you say, Westin/Sheraton owners (Flex and weeks, except for resale Westin/Sheraton week owners), will be able to elect for MVC Points starting this summer for travel in 2023 just as legacy MVC weeks owners have been doing since 2010.
Westin/Sheraton Elite Levels will map over to MVC Elite Levels
At some point, sales of Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex will cease (I would bet that happens fairly shortly after or concurrent with the summer start of cross-brand bookings). This means any unsold Westin/Sheraton intervals will likely begin being deeded over to the same Trust that owns MVC intervals. Not sure how they would handle unsold interests that have already been deeded over too the former Vistana trusts.
When the Westin/Sheraton intervals begin being deposited into the MVC Exchange Company this summer, existing MVC Destination Club owners will have the ability to book those Westin/Sheraton nights. Any Westin/Sheraton intervals that become owned by the MVC Trust will also be available to all DC owners.
Points charts for some former VSN resorts are still being tweaked.


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## rthib

Someone posted this on Marriot Insiders page. Said they got it at an owners update. Nothing new but it is a nice map to show where everything is


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## dansimms

I am touring at Ocean Pointe on April 8th.  I am already a grandfathered Chairman.  Curious to see if there will be a benefit level above Chairman that isn't too far out of reach.  The extra perks would have to be substantial.  But if I have to jump up another 7000 Trust Points, there is no way I can justify something remotely close to that.


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## kds4

dansimms said:


> I am touring at Ocean Pointe on April 8th.  I am already a grandfathered Chairman.  Curious to see if there will be a benefit level above Chairman that isn't too far out of reach.  The extra perks would have to be substantial.  But if I have to jump up another 7000 Trust Points, there is no way I can justify something remotely close to that.



At our last owner update (earlier this month) we were told that owners can/will continue to be grand-fathered (but only one level). If you want the higher benefits of a prospective level above CC, perhaps buying just what you need to get to Chairman Club now without being grandfathered (before the new level above CC is introduced - which we have heard from multiple sources over the past year is coming) is the way to go. If you are Chairman's Club based on actual ownership, you could set yourself up to be grandfathered to the next higher level when/if it is rolled out. We were grand-fathered CC at one time, but bought 1,500 resale points (and paid the fees) to get there on our own a few years back for just this reason ...


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## alexadeparis

I posted this on the other thread as well: I went to a presentation today and was able to take a photo of my sheet showing the MVC DC point values assigned. As you can see, they know exactly what is voluntary, mandatory, retroed, and not. Confirmed that they do NOT know when or if HRA will be brought in, or Riverfront. According to my rep this is because both are owned by other companies and only managed by Vistana, but they are working on both. Tried to get me to purchase an eoy Westin flex package to bring in my unauthorized SVV and hope that when HRA comes online i can make it to Chairman before they raise the points levels. Hard pass.
We here on tug know everything the reps know, other than what our individual units will earn in MVC. They couldn't outright deny that there may be a future opportunity to enroll these a ala the June 2010 cutoff for Marriott, so i will just wait and see.


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## CPNY

alexadeparis said:


> I posted this on the other thread as well: I went to a presentation today and was able to take a photo of my sheet showing the MVC DC point values assigned. As you can see, they know exactly what is voluntary, mandatory, retroed, and not. Confirmed that they do NOT know when or if HRA will be brought in, or Riverfront. According to my rep this is because both are owned by other companies and only managed by Vistana, but they are working on both. Tried to get me to purchase an eoy Westin flex package to bring in my unauthorized SVV and hope that when HRA comes online i can make it to Chairman before they raise the points levels. Hard pass.
> We here on tug know everything the reps know, other than what our individual units will earn in MVC. They couldn't outright deny that there may be a future opportunity to enroll these a ala the June 2010 cutoff for Marriott, so i will just wait and see.


I bet they are working very hard to get HRA in. I for one really hope that they cannot. Did your rep confirm that unauthorized mandatory resale would not be eligible to convert? It seems that’s the consensus however at @jabberwocky update today his sales rep said mandatory un-authorized would be eligible. I guess time will tell


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## VacationForever

alexadeparis said:


> I posted this on the other thread as well: I went to a presentation today and was able to take a photo of my sheet showing the MVC DC point values assigned. As you can see, they know exactly what is voluntary, mandatory, retroed, and not. Confirmed that they do NOT know when or if HRA will be brought in, or Riverfront. According to my rep this is because both are owned by other companies and only managed by Vistana, but they are working on both. Tried to get me to purchase an eoy Westin flex package to bring in my unauthorized SVV and hope that when HRA comes online i can make it to Chairman before they raise the points levels. Hard pass.
> We here on tug know everything the reps know, other than what our individual units will earn in MVC. They couldn't outright deny that there may be a future opportunity to enroll these a ala the June 2010 cutoff for Marriott, so i will just wait and see.


So did the salesperson say whether resale mandatory week is eligible for MVC enrollment?


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## dioxide45

It seems we really can't take the word of a salesperson on what or which VOIs will be able to be enrolled. Denise's contact says one thing, a rep at an owner update says another. It seems we can't rely on them for information because they may not know, or make it up as they go. We won't really know until Marriott announcement the damn thing and lets us go in and actually look at stuff for ourselves.


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## VacationForever

Just thinking aloud, I wonder if we enroll a Vistana week into the MVC program, can we continue to use VSN when we decide not to elect DC club points for the year, or can we only be in one system?  I like the simplicity of VSN's seasons as it provides better value.  For instance, looking at the MVC chart, Thanksgiving week requires higher points and it runs until the weekend past Thanksgiving.  On the other hand, the week before, during and after Thanksgiving require the same number of SOs.  Since we usually travel during that period and varies by year, VSN gives us the flexibillity and not require significantly more points over Thanksgiving week.


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## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> Just thinking aloud, I wonder if we enroll Vistana week into the MVC program, can we continue to use VSN when we not elect DC club points for the year, or can we only be in one system?  I like the simplicity of VSN's seasons and provides better value and flexibility for how we might want to use the SOs.  For instance, looking at the MVC chart, Thanksgiving week requires higher points use and it runs until the weekend past Thanksgiving.  On the other hand, week before, during and after Thanksgiving require the same number of SOs.  Since we usually travel before, during and after Thanksgiving, VSN gives us the flexibillity and not require significantly more points over Thanksgiving week.


The way the fine print reads on those photos being posted is that the vistana member has to elect to participate in the DC Exchange. I’m assuming that if we don’t elect, we continue using what we have. The same has been reported by many of those who have done updates in the past few days as well as the informant through Denise. Whether or not there is enough inventory in the VSN to satisfy our needs in the future is the question.


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## VacationForever

CPNY said:


> The way the fine print reads on those photos being posted is that the vistana member has to elect to participate in the DC Exchange. I’m assuming that if we don’t elect, we continue using what we have. The same has been reported by many of those who have done updates in the past few days as well as the informant through Denise. Whether or not there is enough inventory in the VSN to satisfy our needs in the future is the question.


There are 2 steps.  First is enrollment.  The moment you are enrolled, you are part of the MVC club and you pay MVC club dues.  Since club dues cover free II account and free II trades, I am thinking once enrolled, you cannot go back to VSN.  VSN will continue to exist and likely to work as it is.  Second step is something that you decide each year, whether to elect DC points or you want to use your week as it is.

If enrollment means it is a one-way traffic, then thinking through the way we use SOs, we are likely to not enroll.  Our Vistana ownership is "authorized/eligible".


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## pchung6

VacationForever said:


> There are 2 steps.  First is enrollment.  The moment you are enrolled, you are part of the MVC club and you pay MVC club dues.  Since club dues cover free II account and free II trades, I am thinking once enrolled, you cannot go back to VSN.  VSN will continue to exist and likely to work as it is.  Second step is something that you decide each year, whether to elect DC points or you want to use your week as it is.
> 
> If enrollment means it is a one-way traffic, then thinking through the way we use SOs, we are likely to not enroll.  Our Vistana ownership is "authorized/eligible".


I hope this is not the case. I still don't see any reason/value to enroll. VSN is way better and easier to use. When I look at MVC pts chart, my head spins.


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## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> There are 2 steps.  First is enrollment.  The moment you are enrolled, you are part of the MVC club and you pay MVC club dues.  Since club dues cover free II account and free II trades, I am thinking once enrolled, you cannot go back to VSN.  VSN will continue to exist and likely to work as it is.  Second step is something that you decide each year, whether to elect DC points or you want to use your week as it is.
> 
> If enrollment means it is a one-way traffic, then thinking through the way we use SOs, we are likely to not enroll.  Our Vistana ownership is "authorized/eligible".


If it’s a one and done forever then I would never do it. But I doubt it is only because they have to give you the option to book your deeded home resort week right? I think once you convert for that year then you can’t bring the options back into the VSN. In that case it’s a one way street.

I agree with you, the way I use my SO I wouldn’t enroll or convert. I’d likely have to convert all of my VOI’s to get one week somewhere. Where I can use the SO and get 3-5 weeks


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## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> There are 2 steps.  First is enrollment.  The moment you are enrolled, you are part of the MVC club and you pay MVC club dues.  Since club dues cover free II account and free II trades, I am thinking once enrolled, you cannot go back to VSN.  VSN will continue to exist and likely to work as it is.  Second step is something that you decide each year, whether to elect DC points or you want to use your week as it is.
> 
> If enrollment means it is a one-way traffic, then thinking through the way we use SOs, we are likely to not enroll.  Our Vistana ownership is "authorized/eligible".


This is not my understanding. Just like with Marriott weeks, you can continue to use what you own or elect Club Points every year. If you don't elect Club Points, then you can use your Home Resort, VSN or go through II.


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## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> This is not my understanding. Just like with Marriott weeks, you can continue to use what you own or elect Club Points every year. If you don't elect Club Points, then you can use your Home Resort, VSN or go through II.


I agree, and it’s my understanding as well based on my owners presentation today (Vistana side). VSN will continue to exist and units within VSN can still book as normal. What is changing is that there will now be an extra option where you can choose to put your Vistana week/points into the DC Exchange.

I think of it as being just like depositing a week into II. It’s only for that particular year and I can use VSN in a future year.


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## VacationForever

CPNY said:


> If it’s a one and done forever then I would never do it. But I doubt it is only because they have to give you the option to book your deeded home resort week right? I think once you convert for that year then you can’t bring the options back into the VSN. In that case it’s a one way street.
> 
> I agree with you, the way I use my SO I wouldn’t enroll or convert. I’d likely have to convert all of my VOI’s to get one week somewhere. Where I can use the SO and get 3-5 weeks


In MVC, each year you elect to turn your MVC week into DC points or not.  If you don't, you use your MVC deeded week to book whatever it is in the season.  The elephant in the room is VSN.  Since you essentially should only pay one club fee and you enroll, wouldn't you now be in MVC DC instead of VSN?  It will be great if you can continue to use both VSN and DC systems.


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## alexadeparis

dioxide45 said:


> It seems we really can't take the word of a salesperson on what or which VOIs will be able to be enrolled. Denise's contact says one thing, a rep at an owner update says another. It seems we can't rely on them for information because they may not know, or make it up as they go. We won't really know until Marriott announcement the damn thing and lets us go in and actually look at stuff for ourselves.


I agree with this, it may be something that hasn’t been made clear to them. They did tell me I had to make a purchase to allow it, but when I asked them outright if an amnesty enrollment might be offered as it was in 2010 for Marriott resale weeks, they said anything is possible in the future but have been told no for now. I replied that there are too many uncertainties for me to buy anything for now, and they didn’t push any further. The look on their face made me feel that there is a strong possibility down the road that we may be offered some type of enrollment for a fee, but that is not what they said.


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## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> In MVC, each year you elect to turn your MVC week into DC points or not.  If you don't, you use your MVC deeded week to book whatever it is in the season.  The elephant in the room is VSN.  Since you essentially should only pay one club fee and you enroll, wouldn't you now be in MVC DC instead of VSN?  It will be great if you can continue to use both VSN and DC systems.


I was under the impression they are increasing the VSN fee for Enrolled units to be in line with the fee DC members pay. The real question is, will there be two different VSN fees? The current fee for those who cannot book in the DC and a higher one for those who can? Or will they just raise the price for all of us regardless of ability to convert. If they raise the VSN fee without the ability to convert, that will make for a lot of unhappy owners. The other question is around multiple ownership. You pay on the first two in the VSN, would that continue or just one fee for all? As much as I can’t wait for this to roll out, I wish it wasn’t happening for years lol.


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## VacationForever

CPNY said:


> I was under the impression they are increasing the VSN fee for Enrolled units to be in line with the fee DC members pay. The real question is, will there be two different VSN fees? The current fee for those who cannot book in the DC and a higher one for those who can? Or will they just raise the price for all of us regardless of ability to convert. If they raise the VSN fee without the ability to convert, that will make for a lot of unhappy owners. The other question is around multiple ownership. You pay on the first two in the VSN, would that continue or just one fee for all? As much as I can’t wait for this to roll out, I wish it wasn’t happening for years lol.


MVC DC fees are by ownership level.  Obviously, the more you own, the higher the fees.

$215 Owners and Select Members
$255 Executive and Presidential Members
$280 Chairman's Club Members


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## alexadeparis

To add to what I was told regarding the enrollment and election, all fully authorized enrolled weeks will automatically be enrolled, no action required and no choice really. Then each year we will have to select whether to use home resort use, elect for VSN SOs, or elect for MVC DC points. Once that choice is made for that year, you must use it that way for that year, no take backs. So I could decide to get MVC DC points for 3 units and keep the other 3 in SOs, it’s really going to come down to knowing what we want to do that year and then maximizing the respective points charts. Obviously for Hawaii, St John and HRA, that wouldn’t make sense, but converting to DC points might work if I don’t care where I stay in say Orlando or Palm desert, etc and can use the MVC chart fluctuations to my advantage.


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## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> MVC DC fees are by ownership level.  Obviously, the more you own, the higher the fees.
> 
> $215 Owners and Select Members
> $255 Executive and Presidential Members
> $280 Chairman's Club Members


So a non elite May pay $215 which is more for someone with one ownership but the same amount as someone with 2+ in the VSN. If the increase in fees gets free Marriott exchanges, I wouldn’t be upset.


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## CPNY

alexadeparis said:


> To add to what I was told regarding the enrollment and election, all fully authorized enrolled weeks will automatically be enrolled, no action required and no choice really. Then each year we will have to select whether to use home resort use, elect for VSN SOs, or elect for MVC DC points. Once that choice is made for that year, you must use it that way for that year, no take backs. So I could decide to get MVC DC points for 3 units and keep the other 3 in SOs, it’s really going to come down to knowing what we want to do that year and then maximizing the respective points charts. Obviously for Hawaii, St John and HRA, that wouldn’t make sense, but converting to DC points might work if I don’t care where I stay in say Orlando or Palm desert, etc and can use the MVC chart fluctuations to my advantage.


When you say elect for VSN SO, is that going to be new? As in you have to give up your home resort usage or just continue on the way it is now, either book your home resort, or wait and book something at 8 months? The way it’s written makes it look like you have to choose one of the three options in the beginning of the year.


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## alexadeparis

CPNY said:


> When you say elect for VSN SO, is that going to be new? As in you have to give up your home resort usage or just continue on the way it is now, either book your home resort, or wait and book something at 8 months? The way it’s written makes it look like you have to choose one of the three options in the beginning of the year.


VSN usage will be exactly the same, you don’t have to choose ahead of the use year, but once you break the home usage it goes to SOs. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. Nothing is changing on the VSN side, we will just get one more choice of points currency to use if we break home use.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> I was under the impression they are increasing the VSN fee for Enrolled units to be in line with the fee DC members pay. The real question is, will there be two different VSN fees? The current fee for those who cannot book in the DC and a higher one for those who can? Or will they just raise the price for all of us regardless of ability to convert. If they raise the VSN fee without the ability to convert, that will make for a lot of unhappy owners. The other question is around multiple ownership. You pay on the first two in the VSN, would that continue or just one fee for all? As much as I can’t wait for this to roll out, I wish it wasn’t happening for years lol.


I think what is really happening is that the VSN fee isn't changing (other than perhaps some annual increases). What will change is if you opt to enroll in the program (I think this has to happen just like Marriott weeks), you take on a new DC Club Fee. That fee is a fee that covers all the other fees involved in your ownership and all the other fees now go to $0. So if you are paying a DC Club Fee, the VSN fee is now $0. This way, mandatory owners that could be shut out still pay the same VSN fee and perhaps some that simply never want to participate aren't forced into what could be a higher fee. Just a theory and not sure the contact worded it correctly or not.


----------



## daviator

CPNY said:


> When you say elect for VSN SO, is that going to be new? As in you have to give up your home resort usage or just continue on the way it is now, either book your home resort, or wait and book something at 8 months? The way it’s written makes it look like you have to choose one of the three options in the beginning of the year.


If I have to decide at the beginning of each calendar year which trading network I’m going to use for the following year (presumably, right?) — now I’m basically being asked to plan my travel up to 24 months in advance. That’s a bridge too far and would result in me ALWAYS choosing VSN.

If the decision to be made is about which network I will use THIS year, well that decision has often been made before this year even began, since I probably needed to make reservations last year for this year.

So I am a little confused about the timing of the annual election.


----------



## dioxide45

daviator said:


> If I have to decide at the beginning of each calendar year which trading network I’m going to use for the following year (presumably, right?) — now I’m basically being asked to plan my travel up to 24 months in advance. That’s a bridge too far and would result in me ALWAYS choosing VSN.
> 
> If the decision to be made is about which network I will use THIS year, well that decision has often been made before this year even began, since I probably needed to make reservations last year for this year.
> 
> So I am a little confused about the timing of the annual election.


When electing Club Points, you have up to Sept 30 or Oct 31 (depends on status) of the year prior to the use year to decide. So you technically could make a home resort reservation in the first 3/4 of the use year, cancel it and elect Club Points by the deadline. We don't know if a StarOption reservation in the first 3/4 of the use year that is later cancelled would break the ability to convert to Club Points like it breaks the ability to make Home Resort reservations or II deposits in Vistana today. This is stuff they probably haven't even thought of.


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> When electing Club Points, you have up to Sept 30 or Oct 31 (depends on status) of the year prior to the use year to decide. So you technically could make a home resort reservation in the first 3/4 of the use year, cancel it and elect Club Points by the deadline. We don't know if a StarOption reservation in the first 3/4 of the use year that is later cancelled would break the ability to convert to Club Points like it breaks the ability to make Home Resort reservations or II deposits in Vistana today. This is stuff they probably haven't even thought of.


Ok, so it’s similar to the banking deadlines. That makes more sense.  For some reason i was reading it as “you have to decide by the beginning of the (calendar) year” which didn’t seem like it worked.   Thanks for explaining.


----------



## alexadeparis

daviator said:


> Ok, so it’s similar to the banking deadlines. That makes more sense.  For some reason i was reading it as “you have to decide by the beginning of the (calendar) year” which didn’t seem like it worked.   Thanks for explaining.


I didn’t ask if it would change,  and it wasn’t mentioned, so I think that nothing will change with respect to banking, borrowing or any other VSN deadlines or timelines. Whether the MVC election timelines will differ, I didn’t think to ask that either,


----------



## VacationForever

CPNY said:


> So a non elite May pay $215 which is more for someone with one ownership but the same amount as someone with 2+ in the VSN. If the increase in fees gets free Marriott exchanges, I wouldn’t be upset.


Yes, free II trade.  I use II to trade my MVC weeks more so than using DC points.  Sometimes I use DC points to extend my II exchange by adding in lower point days (Sun-Thu), making it a 10 to 11 days stay.


----------



## rthib

VacationForever said:


> Yes, free II trade.  I use II to trade my MVC weeks more so than using DC points.  Sometimes I use DC points to extend my II exchange by adding in lower point days (Sun-Thu), making it a 10 to 11 days stay.


And free unlimited retrades. Since some resorts honor the II view code you can keep retrading until you get what you want. Or take a Sunday-Sunday and keep looking for a Saturday-Saturday etc..
And for lock-off no lock-off fee and also even for reserving your week, no cancellation fee.


----------



## VacationForever

rthib said:


> And free unlimited retrades. Since some resorts honor the II view code you can keep retrading until you get what you want. Or take a Sunday-Sunday and keep looking for a Saturday-Saturday etc..
> And for lock-off no lock-off fee and also even for reserving your week, no cancellation fee.


Agree. When we first bought MVC weeks, we were surprised that the weeks had a lockoff fee because Vistana does not have lockoff fee.  With Vistana, whether you buy a 2BR or a 2BR LO, it is stated in the deed and you can just book each side of the 2BR LO.   With Vistana, you can deposit one side of the 2BR LO into II and use the other side for SO booking or even turn one side in for Bonvoy points. The free retrades are nice too.  I can keep retrading until I find something that I like.


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> Agree. When we first bought MVC weeks, we were surprised that the weeks had a lockoff fee because Vistana does not have lockoff fee.  With Vistana, whether you buy a 2BR or a 2BR LO, it is stated in the deed and you can just book each side of the 2BR LO.   With Vistana, you can deposit one side of the 2BR LO into II and use the other side for SO booking or even turn one side in for Bonvoy points. The free retrades are nice too.  I can keep retrading until I find something that I like.


Yeah, Vistana is a little different as each side of the lock off unit is technically a separate VOI. So nothing really to lock off. It is more akin to locking together when you make a full 2BR reservation.


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## KS2beach

Maui.Hawaii said:


> Westin Flex owner here that just attended a Marriott Vacation Club presentation.  They told me that the merger will take place by July 1st and I can continue to use my Westin Flex as it currently exists after the merger.  However, if I want to ever reserve any of the 73 properties currently in the MVC Trust, I will need to purchase four 250 point intervals (1,000 MVC points) to "join" the MVC Trust.  Now when we bought the Westin Flex plan the salesman told me that once the merger was completed I would have access to all the Marriott properties.  I guess he didn't lie, he just didn't tell me I would have to pay more money to buy more points in order to access the MVC properties!
> 
> So I need to buy 1,000 MVC points to be a part of the MVC Trust but of course they are only selling a minimum of 1,500 points so I would need to buy that to have access to the current MVC Trust properties. My Westin points will exchange to MVC points at a 28.824 to 1 ratio, so my current 150,000 Westin points will get me 5,204 MVC points.  They will sell me 1,500 MVC points so I can be part of the Trust for $19,360 or $0.12907 per point. They also have said that with the 1,500 MVC points I am buying plus the 5,204 MVC points I will have from the Westin conversion, I will have a total 6,704 MVC points.  The salesman said with that many MVC points, I should buy the little bit more needed to get to the MVC VIP Executive level of 7,000 MVC points so that I will not only get into the MVC Trust but also get VIP Executive level which means I can reserve at 13 months instead of 12 months.
> 
> So please provide feedback as what here is the truth, what is false, and what would you do?


We own 2 Westin properties and in 2020 thought buying 1,500 DP with Marriott would help bridge our ownerships. We just went to Marriott update last week and they tried to convince us we should buy 1500 more DP points to jump to next level the break down they offered us 4500 one time points- 1500 yearly DP  after discounts etc. for $17,640.  Bottom line we turned it down.
Our WKV 81,000- is 2,850 marriott- our WRF 95,700 is 2,250 marriott- our Sheraton 44,000 is 900 Marriott-  i doubt we would ever change over to use the marriott properties with those- We have however enjoyed using our Marriott DP for 5 night get aways (Hilton Head- Myrtle Beach- going to Frenchman's cove in Nov) Everyone's travel needs are different, Good Luck with your decision.


----------



## dioxide45

KS2beach said:


> Our WKV 81,000- is 2,850 marriott- our WRF 95,700 is 2,250 marriott- our Sheraton 44,000 is 900 Marriott


What season and unit sizes are these? Which Sheraton is the 44K at? I didn't think Westin Riverfront was going to be included at the outset?


----------



## needvaca

KS2beach said:


> We own 2 Westin properties and in 2020 thought buying 1,500 DP with Marriott would help bridge our ownerships. We just went to Marriott update last week and they tried to convince us we should buy 1500 more DP points to jump to next level the break down they offered us 4500 one time points- 1500 yearly DP  after discounts etc. for $17,640.  Bottom line we turned it down.
> Our WKV 81,000- is 2,850 marriott- our WRF 95,700 is 2,250 marriott- our Sheraton 44,000 is 900 Marriott-  i doubt we would ever change over to use the marriott properties with those- We have however enjoyed using our Marriott DP for 5 night get aways (Hilton Head- Myrtle Beach- going to Frenchman's cove in Nov) Everyone's travel needs are different, Good Luck with your decision.


another Tug member said their salesperson said 2600 for the WKV 81,000.  Did you see the 2,850 in writing, on a slide, etc.  or was it just verbal?  I hope it's the 2850


----------



## dioxide45

needvaca said:


> another Tug member said their salesperson said 2600 for the WKV 81,000.  Did you see the 2,850 in writing, on a slide, etc.  or was it just verbal?  I hope it's the 2850


We don't know what 81,000 it is actually for. Is it a Gold+ season 2BR or the 1BR side of the 2BR LO in Platinum+ season. Those two 81K may have different DC point allocations.


----------



## VacationForever

needvaca said:


> another Tug member said their salesperson said 2600 for the WKV 81,000.  Did you see the 2,850 in writing, on a slide, etc.  or was it just verbal?  I hope it's the 2850


See this post.  1BR premium platinum season translates to 2600.  2BR Gold translates roughly to 3460.









						CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
					

I have been a long time loyalist (hotel) of Westin and Marriott when I was travelling for business, I have always liked both equally, and that extends to timeshare.  I don't think one is better than the other.  Marriott is certainly more aggressive for its shareholders and bottom line.   I used...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> See this post.  1BR premium platinum season translates to 2600.  2BR Gold translates roughly to 3460.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
> 
> 
> I have been a long time loyalist (hotel) of Westin and Marriott when I was travelling for business, I have always liked both equally, and that extends to timeshare.  I don't think one is better than the other.  Marriott is certainly more aggressive for its shareholders and bottom line.   I used...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com


I am not sure we can rely on those values. If you convert the 1BR small and 1BR large separately, the total is higher than the entire 2BR unit. I


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure we can rely on those values. If you convert the 1BR small and 1BR large separately, the total is higher than the entire 2BR unit. I


You probably can’t convert them separately. It seems that you have to convert the whole VOI according to “sources”.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> You probably can’t convert them separately. It seems that you have to convert the whole VOI according to “sources”.


They may require an owner to convert the entire 2BR, but with Vistana each side of a lock off is a separate VOI. With Marriott, it is all one ownership. We will have to wait and see how Marriott does this with Vistana.


----------



## Venter

dioxide45 said:


> They may require an owner to convert the entire 2BR, but with Vistana each side of a lock off is a separate VOI. With Marriott, it is all one ownership. We will have to wait and see how Marriott does this with Vistana.


Denise's source said Vistana owners will have to elect the whole unit. You will not be able to choose a side and just elect that to use


----------



## dioxide45

Venter said:


> Denise's source said Vistana owners will have to elect the whole unit. You will not be able to choose a side and just elect that to use


This is what the source said. It seems my interpretation of this is different than others?

_Is the election for Vistana into DC a one time decision or an annual decision (like currently exchanging for Bonvoy/Interval)?_
*Every year you decide what does and does not go in DC. You can split but each VOI can't be split, you owns a 148,100 flex, it all goes in or none of it*


----------



## kozykritter

I would think a VOI would be defined as a contract. You have one underlying purchase contract for the lock off, right?  I would guess that is considered one VOI even though the system treats it as two separate units. Seems like we won't know for sure until we know for sure


----------



## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> I would think a VOI would be defined as a contract. You have one underlying purchase contract for the lock off, right?  I would guess that is considered one VOI even though the system treats it as two separate units. Seems like we won't know for sure until we know for sure



I believe in Vistana, a 2 BR LO is treated as 2 separate VOIs that have their own housekeeping allotment associated with them.  If someone books the two sides separately using their ownership in the 2 BR LO, they aren't charged for an additional housekeeping service, while if you use the SOs from a different VOI to book the 2, you'd be charged for an extra housekeeping above the number of VOIs you own, assuming that you didn't draw from housekeeping allocations for any other VOIs you own..


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> I would think a VOI would be defined as a contract. You have one underlying purchase contract for the lock off, right?  I would guess that is considered one VOI even though the system treats it as two separate units. Seems like we won't know for sure until we know for sure


When you buy a lock off, you are actually deeded two different VOIs, I am almost certain they each have their own contract number.


----------



## Seagila

dioxide45 said:


> When you buy a lock off, you are actually deeded two different VOIs, I am almost certain they each have their own contract number.



Looks like a lock-off is considered one VOI and only has one contract number.


----------



## dioxide45

Seagila said:


> Looks like a lock-off is considered one VOI and only has one contract number.
> 
> View attachment 50928


When you are looking on the StarOption summary, is each side listed separately?


----------



## Seagila

dioxide45 said:


> When you are looking on the StarOption summary, is each side listed separately?



The booking system sees the lock-off as two separate units that can be reserved and/or deposited into II either as a full two-bedroom or individual one-bedroom units. Vistana's system is definitely more sophisticated than Marriott's archaic one. I've always thought it excessive that Marriott charges a lock-off fee and reservation cancellation fee to unenrolled weeks owners.


----------



## TravelTime

To me, a huge issue with Vistana is if you do not use, rent or deposit your mandatory home resort in the year it is awarded, you can’t do much with it except exchange within VSN at 8 months. At 8 months, there is not much desirable inventory left.


----------



## CPNY

Seagila said:


> Vistana's system is definitely more sophisticated than Marriott's archaic one.



don’t worry, Marriott is working hard to make Vistana’s site more archaic and it’s working! Well not the site, the site isn’t working.


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> To me, a huge issue with Vistana is if you do not use, rent or deposit your mandatory home resort in the year it is awarded, you can’t do much with it except exchange within VSN at 8 months. At 8 months, there is not much desirable inventory left.


Not for where we love to visit every year and I have always been able to book using SOs at 8 months.


----------



## CPNY

VacationForever said:


> Not for where we love to visit every year and I have always been able to book using SOs at 8 months.


Same! I’ve been so happy with what I’ve been able to do with star options. That includes school holiday weeks on occasion. It’s been great and I do hope it continues.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> Not for where we love to visit every year and I have always been able to book using SOs at 8 months.



I am not talking about using it if you love it. I mean if for whatever reason, you are not able to use your home resort in the 12 months allocated, using Star Options at 8 months is not great. I did a search for 8 month inventory this week and there is nothing I would want. Also I need when kids are out of school, further limiting options. With MVC, I get 2.5 years to use my DPs anywhere I want to go with a 13 month booking window. How can VSN be better than this?


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> I am not talking about using it if you love it. I mean if for whatever reason, you are not able to use your home resort in the 12 months allocated, using Star Options at 8 months is not great. I did a search for 8 month inventory this week and there is nothing I would want. Also I need when kids are out of school, further limiting options.


My point is I don't want to travel to my home resort.  I use SOs to book at other resorts which we love to travel to at 8 months.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> My point is I don't want to travel to my home resort.  I use SOs to book at other resorts which we love to travel to at 8 months.



Oh, okay. I misunderstood. How do you get 2 BR units during peak seasons at 8 months? Before we adopted our children, I could sometimes find a 1 BR off season with SOs at 8 months. I once got lucky and booked a 1 BR OF at WKOVR. But then I also lost 81,000 SOs last year when I could not find anything to use them for.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> To me, a huge issue with Vistana is if you do not use, rent or deposit your mandatory home resort in the year it is awarded, you can’t do much with it except exchange within VSN at 8 months. At 8 months, there is not much desirable inventory left.



Here you go again. I’ve used SOs for every use year since I bought my WKV except the last couple due to the pandemic, and I’ve always exchanged for WKORV or other desirable locations at the time I wanted to go. 

I even booked Harborside for this year without issue. But go on, keep saying there’s nothing desirable left… 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> Oh, okay. I misunderstood. How do you get 2 BR units during peak seasons at 8 months? Before we adopted our children, I could sometimes find a 1 BR off season with SOs at 8 months. I once got lucky and booked a 1 BR OF at WKOVR. But then I also lost 81,000 SOs last year when I could not find anything to use them for.


Generally we only travel to Ko Olina if we want to go to Hawaii.  We have been to Westin Kaanapali, Princeville, Marriott Kaui and Maui resorts and just never have the desire to go back to any of these places again.  We also don't like crowds and prefer to travel in Winter and Fall, and usually go to Kierland and Mission Hills in the Westin system and Desert Springs in the Marriott system.  During summer, we go to Newport Coast in June and August.


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> Here you go again. I’ve used SOs for every use year since I bought my WKV except the last couple due to the pandemic, and I’ve always exchanged for WKORV or other desirable locations at the time I wanted to go.
> 
> I even booked Harborside for this year without issue. But go on, keep saying there’s nothing desirable left…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Which week? I know Marriott made more inventory available for owners and it seemed that there has been a ton of Harborside lately. More than normal years. I was able to book 4th of a July week!


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> Here you go again. I’ve used SOs for every use year since I bought my WKV except the last couple due to the pandemic, and I’ve always exchanged for WKORV or other desirable locations at the time I wanted to go.
> 
> I even booked Harborside for this year without issue. But go on, keep saying there’s nothing desirable left…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Glad you find good things at 8 months. Not sure how you do it. Do not get angry at me for sharing my reality. If you have some good tips and tricks, please share them with everyone here. I own Vistana and MVC and MVC is hands down superior, but more expensive to participate in MVC with DPs.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> Glad you find good things at 8 months. Not sure how you do it. Do not get angry at me for sharing my reality. If you have some good tips and tricks, please share them with everyone here. I own Vistana and MVC and MVC is hands down superior, but more expensive to participate in MVC with DPs.


Superior is subjective. How can It be superior to me when the 2-3 resorts I love are in the Vistana Network and my Star Options can get me there for 3-4 weeks. I’d have to convert all of my ownerships to get enough DC points for one week at a comparable resort, which wouldn’t be my first choice.

Dont get me wrong, DC is great, but superior is subjective. Vistana will be superior to me until 2024 when HRA can convert. Again, it would probably take all of my vistana ownerships to get a week at HRA via the DC Exchange when my SO will get me 4 weeks in a one bedroom premium, 5 weeks in a one bedroom deluxe (not a Marriott studio).


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> Glad you find good things at 8 months. Not sure how you do it. Do not get angry at me for sharing my reality. If you have some good tips and tricks, please share them with everyone here. I own Vistana and MVC and MVC is hands down superior, but more expensive to participate in MVC with DPs.



Yikes, I’m not angry. As for sharing…that’s exactly what we have done for as long as I’ve been here. But, as you admitted earlier today in another post, you don’t frequent the Vistana forum that often… 

As for comparing Marriott to Westin…well, as I’ve posted before, I’ve been happier with Westin quality and that’s why I bought it. I have still been to 10 or more Marriotts and there’s no way I’m spending a lot to visit them. Forgive me if I say Westin is “hands down superior” to Marriott. I’ve owned since 2005 and been able to go to the locations I wanted when I wanted with StarOptions at an affordable rate, and I’ve visited Marriott’s via II by trading SDO and buying getaway weeks. This isn’t difficult to do, and many of us have been doing it a long, long time. 

I have zero interest in giving Marriott any money for a false sense of access based on reports from sales weasels when there is no public documents supporting the program. But I’m glad someone is, since the system has to make money to improve…at least, that was the thinking for years but we haven’t seen a new Westin resort in a long time and without new resorts there seems little reason to give them new money. There are very few Marriott resorts on my list to visit, though I’m sure I would be pleased to see a few - I’ve been considering one of the resorts in Spain and they are frequently available via II. No new money needed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Steve Fatula

I've only been to one Westin, this past year, Westin Desert Willow, and it's definitely not up to DSV standards (comparing to same  area). The rest may be, I have no idea. But this "my timeshare is better than yours" stuff quickly gets out of hand. I've owned Marriott for 23 years now, and I love it, gives me everything I ever wanted for travel (except the website, lol). CPNY is correct, it's subjective. What works for me may not work at all for you, and vice versa. I'm happy for those who own Vistana and love it, better than all the owners who hate their ownership. I suppose emotions are running high due to the merger. Whether we like it or not, we're becoming a little more merged group.


----------



## Ken555

Steve Fatula said:


> I've only been to one Westin, this past year, Westin Desert Willow, and it's definitely not up to DSV standards (comparing to same  area). The rest may be, I have no idea. But this "my timeshare is better than yours" stuff quickly gets out of hand. I've owned Marriott for 23 years now, and I love it, gives me everything I ever wanted for travel (except the website, lol). CPNY is correct, it's subjective. What works for me may not work at all for you, and vice versa. I'm happy for those who own Vistana and love it, better than all the owners who hate their ownership. I suppose emotions are running high due to the merger. Whether we like it or not, we're becoming a little more merged group.



Well, I've been to 10+ Marriotts and I've been to most of the Westins and though it's been a long time since I've been to DSV, I find WDW much nicer given the choice. But then, I prefer the smaller 1-bed units while the Marriott small side is just a hotel room without washer/dryer/full kitchen/etc so it doesn't compare well.

Of course, generally speaking, this is subjective. It always has been, and always will (other than the factual objective differences, such as the simple example of no washer/dryer/full kitchen in the Marriott lock-offs  ).


----------



## TravelTime

This is the MVC thread so I think it is okay to state one’s opinion in support of MVC, especially if one owns in both MVC and Vistana. I really love the Ritz Carlton resorts within MVC and that was the #1 reason I decided to buy DPs. For example, in comparing Ritz Carlton St Thomas to Westin St John, I think Ritz Carlton St Thomas is really gorgeous and the location is great. While I love St John, the Westin over there is just okay and the location is not great.

St John used to be one of my top favorite places in the world when Caneel Bay was open. Now, I much prefer staying at Ritz Carlton St Thomas because the resort is fantastic. Many people think St Thomas is inferior for some reason. I think St Thomas is really nice and a great place to stay. I think it gets a bad rap due to all the cruise ships. This reminds me of how Oahu has a bad reputation due to Honolulu. I avoided Oahu for 20+ years. When I finally forced myself to visit Oahu, I fell in love with the island. The ocean around Oahu is most like the Caribbean to me.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> This is the MVC thread so I think it is okay to state one’s opinion in support of MVC, especially if one owns in both MVC and Vistana. I really love the Ritz Carlton resorts within MVC and that was the #1 reason I decided to buy DPs. For example, in comparing Ritz Carlton St Thomas to Westin St John, I think Ritz Carlton St Thomas is really gorgeous and the location is great. While I love St John, the Westin over there is just okay and the location is not great.
> 
> St John used to be one of my top favorite places in the world when Caneel Bay was open. Now, I much prefer staying at Ritz Carlton St Thomas because the resort is fantastic. Many people think St Thomas is inferior for some reason. I think St Thomas is really nice and a great place to stay. I think it gets a bad rap due to all the cruise ships. This reminds me of how Oahu has a bad reputation due to Honolulu. I avoided Oahu for 20+ years. When I finally forced myself to visit Oahu, I fell in love with the island. The ocean around Oahu is most like the Caribbean to me.


Keep in mind I haven’t stayed at MFC or the Ritz on St Thomas but St. John seems like a different vibe compared to st Thomas. One feels like an unspoiled island and the other a generic Caribbean island. From what I’ve seen, the beaches on St John are amazing. I haven’t seen the beach at the Ritz or STT.

Westin St John is a great place to explore the island from. To me it’s not a place I’d want to stay a full day at the resort. It reminds me of the Harborside. Both are Great to stay and enjoy small pieces of time at their pool on occasion (travel day/after a Long Beach day) but the real draw for both is paradise island/Atlantis for HRA and the beaches of St John for WSJ. It’s different for the Ritz. The whole idea of the Ritz is to stay at the resort and enjoy the luxuries of that high end property. With that being said, how is their beach? If their beachfront is pristine then I’d say it’s amazing. But if you need to leave the Ritz to find pristine beaches, is it really worth all of those points? May as well stay in an airbnb or a lower point Marriott timeshare to use as your base camp while you enjoy the island.

this is one of those examples of difference of opinion. I’ve been to many Marriott resorts that are fantastic and I’d love to go back! There are Marriott resorts than are much nicer than vistana resorts and vistana resorts that are much nicer than Marriott resorts.

I don’t think that Vistana owners hate Marriott resorts, we just aren’t happy with the way MVW operates.  We enjoy what we have and don’t trust corporate to continue that customer satisfaction on the Vistana side. We are concerned that what we have will be stripped away little by little and we will be extorted to spend Tens of thousands of dollars to book what we used to be able to with ease.


----------



## Eric B

CPNY said:


> With that being said, how is their beach?



I'm there this week.  Meh; it's about 15 feet wide and is suffering slightly from sargassum - nothing to compare with the ones on St John away from the resort.  Some halfway decent looking reefs to snorkel out to from the beach, though; will be trying that in a couple of hours.  Lots of chaise lounges on the beach belonging to the resort, though there is also public access (but not to use them).  Sand is quite nice, but I wouldn't come here for the beach.


----------



## CPNY

Eric B said:


> Sand is quite nice, but I wouldn't come here for the beach.



how many DC points does it cost to stay there for a week? If the beach is meh and you wouldn’t go there for the beach, why not stay at a lower point cost resort? This is why I’d think MFC and WSJ would be better options to stay when traveling to STT/STJ.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> how many DC points does it cost to stay there for a week? If the beach is meh and you wouldn’t go there for the beach, why not stay at a lower point cost resort? This is why I’d think MFC and WSJ would be better options to stay when traveling to STT/STJ.


It ain't cheap,


			http://www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/common/cms/mvc/pdfs/helpfulTools/resorts/RS/pdfDisplay/2023_RS.pdf


----------



## Eric B

CPNY said:


> how many DC points does it cost to stay there for a week? If the beach is meh and you wouldn’t go there for the beach, why not stay at a lower point cost resort? This is why I’d think MFC and WSJ would be better options to stay when traveling to STT/STJ.



I'm not really sure; I'm on an exchange via ThirdHome that cost me the equivalent of 10,667 WorldMark credits and a $795 exchange fee, so cost me a lot less all in than the 1 BR WSJ weeks I own.  This was my first visit here and I figured I'd try it out - I would return as the facilities are quite nice.


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> It ain't cheap,
> 
> 
> http://www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/common/cms/mvc/pdfs/helpfulTools/resorts/RS/pdfDisplay/2023_RS.pdf



My cost for a 2 BR suite was a lot better than that, though the availability isn't as great as it would be going through Marriott and using points.  Still don't know if I'd be able to do that or what my cost per point would be.  Ran into some folks staying here in a 2 BR for the same week that rented on VRBO for $10,000 for the week and like it so much they were planning on buying in....


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> It ain't cheap,
> 
> 
> http://www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/common/cms/mvc/pdfs/helpfulTools/resorts/RS/pdfDisplay/2023_RS.pdf


So 3675 in a two bedroom for the times I would go. If I go by speculation conversion of my units (assuming I can convert), it would take all of my VOI’s for one week. I can book 2 two bedrooms with the VSN at WSJ and still have points left over.


----------



## CPNY

Eric B said:


> I'm not really sure; I'm on an exchange via ThirdHome that cost me the equivalent of 10,667 WorldMark credits and a $795 exchange fee, so cost me a lot less all in than the 1 BR WSJ weeks I own.  This was my first visit here and I figured I'd try it out - I would return as the facilities are quite nice.


I need to get back into looking at third home


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> how many DC points does it cost to stay there for a week? If the beach is meh and you wouldn’t go there for the beach, why not stay at a lower point cost resort? This is why I’d think MFC and WSJ would be better options to stay when traveling to STT/STJ.



The point cost in June when I am going is very low. About the same as staying at the Marriott Frenchman’s Cove. I think the beach at Westin St John is meh too. You need to have a rental car to drive to the public beaches that are nice. 

To me, paradise in St John was destroyed with the hurricane. If you ever stayed at Caneel Bay, it was amazing. I have never been to such an amazing resort. I hope it reopens. We stayed there for 8 days a few years before the hurricane. I wanted to go back but it was too late.






						Caneel Bay Resort | St John, USVI Beachfront Resort
					

The resort remains closed through 2022, with the exception of VI Ecotours at Honeymoon Beach and ZoZo’s Restaurant at Caneel Bay.




					www.caneelbay.com
				




I would stay at Westin St John too with my SOs if I could get a booking there. It is pretty hard to get at the 8 month mark. Not impossible if you check a lot but hard. We are staying at Ritz St Thomas for 15 nights in June. If I could have gotten something to combine it and split the time on each island, I would.

We will visit St John at least 3-4 times on our upcoming trip. Most of those times will be by boat. One time, we may take the ferry over and go to Honeymoon Beach, which is one of Caneel Bay’s beaches. I need to see if it is open to the public. I think this beach rents cabanas, which is important for me due to my light skin and recent skin cancer surgery. To me, taking the ferry over to St John and then a taxi to the beach is not all that much more complicated than staying at Westin St John and driving over to the beaches. Westin St John is on the wrong side of St John. If it were on a beach like Caneel Bay was, I would own there for sure.

Do you have any advice about getting around St John? Which are the best beaches? Which beaches have chairs and umbrellas for rent?


----------



## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> So 3675 in a two bedroom for the times I would go. If I go by speculation conversion of my units (assuming I can convert), it would take all of my VOI’s for one week. I can book 2 two bedrooms with the VSN at WSJ and still have points left over.



What do you own in Vistana? I own WKOVRN. Based on speculation, it would convert to DPs for about double what it would cost to stay at Ritz Carlton St Thomas in the summer. So I do not understand why you say you get more value out of Vistana. I think it’s about the same. 

I am paying over $3000 for my Vistana week. I think the MFs at Westin St John are higher than what I pay and my unit is one of the highest cost ones in VSN. 

I think some people purchase at the Orlando resort and save money that way to use the VSN. I just do not like to rely on luck with hoping to book at WSJ or elsewhere at 8 months. There are a few resorts I like that are easier to book at 8 months but it depends on the season. I think Harborside, Laugunamar and possibly Princeville are easier to book at 8 months and I would like to visit those locations one day. Overall, I like the certainty of booking my home resort in Vistana at 12 months or booking with DPs at 13 months. This way, I know for sure I will get something I want.

How often have you been able to book at WSJ at the 8 month mark and when was it? I often look and can’t find a week at or after the 8 month mark. Before Covid, I was able to piece something together at WSJ but I ended up not going. I recall it was very hard to book and I had to keep checking repeatedly to see if something opened up. I think in the end it would have been a mix of room types.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> What do you own in Vistana? I own WKOVRN. Based on speculation, it would convert to DPs for about double what it would cost to stay at Ritz Carlton St Thomas in the summer. So I do not understand why you say you get more value out of Vistana. I think it’s about the same.
> 
> I am paying over $3000 for my Vistana week. I think the MFs at Westin St John are higher than what I pay and my unit is one of the highest cost ones in VSN.
> 
> I think some people purchase at the Orlando resort and save money that way to use the VSN. I just do not like to rely on luck with hoping to book at WSJ or elsewhere at 8 months. There are a few resorts I like that are easier to book at 8 months but it depends on the season. I think Harborside, Laugunamar and possibly Princeville are easier to book at 8 months and I would like to visit those locations one day. Overall, I like the certainty of booking my home resort in Vistana at 12 months or booking with DPs at 13 months. This way, I know for sure I will get something I want.
> 
> How often have you been able to book at WSJ at the 8 month mark and when was it? I often look and can’t find a week at or after the 8 month mark. Before Covid, I was able to piece something together at WSJ but I ended up not going. I recall it was very hard to book and I had to keep checking repeatedly to see if something opened up. I think in the end it would have been a mix of room types.


I own in orlando and have booked only at SVV, HRA, WSJ, WLR, WKOVN-OF X2, Ski weeks at SMV. HRA is tough at 8 months but I’ve booked spring break weeks precovid as well as holiday summer weeks (Memorial Day/ 4th of July). The oceanfront in Hawaii were at 8 months and I sent my mom and my aunt and uncle on two different occasions. All pre COVID. No one said it was easy to book at 8 months, but it’s def not impossible. All of my SO come from orlando currently. I am waiting for the transfer of an EOY WKV small one bedroom to come into my account. My annual fees are less than 3,000 and I have a nice amount of options for my usage.


----------



## Steve Fatula

CPNY said:


> If the beach is meh and you wouldn’t go there for the beach, why not stay at a lower point cost resort? This is why I’d think MFC and WSJ would be better options to stay when traveling to STT/STJ.



The best stay I have ever had at any resort (likely until I get to St Thomas) was at a Ritz Carlton. The service was impeccable. For me, and everyone is different, that made the trip the best ever for pure overall happiness. They are far beyond any other timeshare service wise. Some may not care, I do. I engaged with the crew daily and there was absolutely nothing I could ask for they didn't get me or had. It felt like family and I loved it, they took care of me in every way and then some. There were so many things within the room that I've never seen at any other timeshare in 22 years of trips that were just great to have.

I am staying at both MFC and the Ritz later this year and am 99.9% sure I will enjoy the Ritz vastly better based on my previous experience at one. Not interested in beach, not my thing, but we'll see when I get there. I wish there were more Ritz resorts, I'd probably only stay at them. 

Regarding the lockoff thing, I don't stay in lockoffs so the point is moot for me. I actually prefer pure 2 BR with no lockoff.


----------



## CPNY

Steve Fatula said:


> The best stay I have ever had at any resort (likely until I get to St Thomas) was at a Ritz Carlton. The service was impeccable. For me, and everyone is different, that made the trip the best ever for pure overall happiness. They are far beyond any other timeshare service wise. Some may not care, I do. I engaged with the crew daily and there was absolutely nothing I could ask for they didn't get me or had. It felt like family and I loved it, they took care of me in every way and then some. There were so many things within the room that I've never seen at any other timeshare in 22 years of trips that were just great to have.
> 
> I am staying at both MFC and the Ritz later this year and am 99.9% sure I will enjoy the Ritz vastly better based on my previous experience at one. Not interested in beach, not my thing, but we'll see when I get there. I wish there were more Ritz resorts, I'd probably only stay at them.
> 
> Regarding the lockoff thing, I don't stay in lockoffs so the point is moot for me. I actually prefer pure 2 BR with no lockoff.


Since you don’t care for the beach, I can see why you will enjoy it. The beach is def my thing, much more so than the resort. What I love is a big room, my own kitchen, and a washer dryer. After that…..get me to the pristine beach! Lol. No one is denying the quality of the Ritz being impeccable. That’s a fact that we can all agree on. For you, the high point value will be worth it. For me, I’d rather multiple trips at a “nice” resort. It sounds like the beaches at MFC, Ritz, and WSJ are all comparable. For that reason I’d choose WSJ because I’d rather spend my time on the isle of St John.

A combined program wouldn’t help me to achieve that better than the VSN. That was my original Point. I’m not knocking the DC, I’m just saying that it won’t work in my favor. That’s ok, that’s the rules of the game. Doesn’t mean I’m on the losing end (yet). For me the VSN is a winning bet, until MVW Erodes the inventory. When the game changes so will my strategy. No biggie, it makes ownership fun I guess, keeps ya on your toes haha.


----------



## Clifbell

[Timeshare Traveler Episode 47...  The Marriott Vacation Club / Vistana Merger is happening - MERGED]

I am excited about the Merger of Marriott Vacation Club finally happening.  It has been a long four + years since the announcement.  The sales team is now showing "informal" updates to what the future merged program will look like.  Of course, there is a "last chance" to buy the benefits to Vistana points.

In this video, I will discuss the merger as described to me... I will touch on it from a Vistana owner perspective.  I will also discuss my views of the merger from the Marriott Vacation Club perspective.  All in all, I am happy.  I get to be Bonvoy Platinum for life as a result of owning some Marriott Vacation club points and Vistana Points.

Timeshare Traveler Episode 47...  The Marriott Vacation Club / Vistana Merger is happening

Map of all my timeshare reviews


----------



## Ken555

Steve Fatula said:


> The best stay I have ever had at any resort (likely until I get to St Thomas) was at a Ritz Carlton. The service was impeccable. For me, and everyone is different, that made the trip the best ever for pure overall happiness. They are far beyond any other timeshare service wise. Some may not care, I do. I engaged with the crew daily and there was absolutely nothing I could ask for they didn't get me or had. It felt like family and I loved it, they took care of me in every way and then some. There were so many things within the room that I've never seen at any other timeshare in 22 years of trips that were just great to have.
> 
> I am staying at both MFC and the Ritz later this year and am 99.9% sure I will enjoy the Ritz vastly better based on my previous experience at one. Not interested in beach, not my thing, but we'll see when I get there. I wish there were more Ritz resorts, I'd probably only stay at them.
> 
> Regarding the lockoff thing, I don't stay in lockoffs so the point is moot for me. I actually prefer pure 2 BR with no lockoff.



The Ritz is on my list. I’ve stayed at both of the Four Seasons timeshares and believe they are superb, so if it’s anything like those I know I would enjoy it.

Using the lock off / smaller 1-bed in Vistana with its superior features is one of its distinctive benefits compared to Marriott, and a major reason why I bought with them rather than Marriott. The systems are designed to be flexible, so when comparing what is best for one is not always best for all. With this in mind, for those considering converting it’s yet another factor since a unit with a full kitchen and washer/dryer at Marriott will cost more than a well equipped, though smaller, unit at Vistana.

If the eventual program is similar to what’s been reported, I have little doubt I will be happy just sticking with using SOs to stay at other Vistana resorts and using my SDO to trade into others, including Marriott, as I’ve done for many, many years. If things change, then I’ll just rent my WKV (as I am doing for next year) and give away my SDO and move on. There are many other options competing for my travel money and time, and I see little reason to waste significant sums with Marriott. 

Full disclosure: I’m currently biased against Marriott after their recent devaluation on the hotel side…I’ve got well over a million BonvoyPesos and almost everything I want just increased considerably. Considering ditching both credit cards, using my points, and switching to another brand, assuming I can’t find value in the next year or so. With this in mind, there’s no way I will give Marriot a dime.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CPNY

Ken555 said:


> There are many other options competing for my travel money and time, and I see little reason to waste significant sums with Marriott.
> 
> Full disclosure: I’m currently biased against Marriott after their recent devaluation on the hotel side…I’ve got well over a million BonvoyPesos and almost everything I want just increased considerably. Considering ditching both credit cards, using my points, and switching to another brand, assuming I can’t find value in the next year or so. With this in mind, there’s no way I will give Marriot a dime.



So many other great travel options! VRBO, AIRBNB, Great resort deals constantly being Advertised, or just renting on redweek for less than MF in many cases. Spending tens of thousands of dollars on timeshare points is a real head scratcher!

the devaluation on the hotel side is terrible! While MVW is separate from Marriott hotels, we know the apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree.


----------



## Steve Fatula

Ken555 said:


> The Ritz is on my list. I’ve stayed at both of the Four Seasons timeshares and believe they are superb, so if it’s anything like those I know I would enjoy it.
> 
> Using the lock off / smaller 1-bed in Vistana with its superior features is one of its distinctive benefits compared to Marriott, and a major reason why I bought with them rather than Marriott. The systems are designed to be flexible, so when comparing what is best for one is not always best for all. With this in mind, for those considering converting it’s yet another factor since a unit with a full kitchen and washer/dryer at Marriott will cost more than a well equipped, though smaller, unit at Vistana.
> 
> If the eventual program is similar to what’s been reported, I have little doubt I will be happy just sticking with using SOs to stay at other Vistana resorts and using my SDO to trade into others, including Marriott, as I’ve done for many, many years. If things change, then I’ll just rent my WKV (as I am doing for next year) and give away my SDO and move on. There are many other options competing for my travel money and time, and I see little reason to waste significant sums with Marriott.
> 
> Full disclosure: I’m currently biased against Marriott after their recent devaluation on the hotel side…I’ve got well over a million BonvoyPesos and almost everything I want just increased considerably. Considering ditching both credit cards, using my points, and switching to another brand, assuming I can’t find value in the next year or so. With this in mind, there’s no way I will give Marriot a dime.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Yep, I get it. I would probably be annoyed myself. Though, there is a thread here where numerous people are reporting trips that cost less Bonvoy points since the change. And some more also of course. I suppose it depends on the specific properties. For me, not an issue as I just go where it's cheap and I'd want to go anyway. Random places, no plan. That's the way I travel. If today I see something and it's a decent deal I go for it. My goal is currently to stay at every single MVCI. No good reason, cause I can. For Bonvoy points I have my own way of using them and get great value out of them. Far more than any cashback card. For others, not so much and yes, if it doesn't make sense, change where you send your business. If you truly believe "devalue" then change.

There is no problem with sticking with what you have. In the past, that's the way Marriott has worked. They might give you more options, you will likely pay for it, but you could always use what you have as you had it. I have liked that aspect. No one here had to convert to destinations points, their options have remained. I could still have my week unenrolled, but enrolled gave too many advantages that I wanted. Change is always stressful.

The reason I bought marriott was more destinations originally in program. I don't often travel (other than DSV and Branson) to the same town over and over. I travel all around the world, and while Marriott doesn't have tons of overseas options, where they have it I will go. Yes, could trade into others but want to stay at Marriott where I can. And it was the best choice for that back in 1999. At least for me. I'm not knocking you guys at all. I get it. And I love when timeshares owners of any brand are happy with what they have! See too many horror stories, whether Marriott or any other brand. If you can continue to use what you always had the way you have, then, you should be mostly happy.

But I don't see the point of coming over to Marriott forums and constantly complaining about things you say you don't want. If you don't want or won't use those options, don't!


----------



## Steve Fatula

CPNY said:


> So many other great travel options! VRBO, AIRBNB, Great resort deals constantly being Advertised, or just renting on redweek for less than MF in many cases. Spending tens of thousands of dollars on timeshare points is a real head scratcher!
> 
> the devaluation on the hotel side is terrible! While MVW is separate from Marriott hotels, we know the apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree.



I guess you have not read all the reports of stays being cheaper. I am sure overall they are not, but, it's not like anywhere near disaster levels here. I still find many places to go cheaply and get immense value out of the points the way I use them. Many here including me own DC points, very happy with them. You can scratch your head all you want. If it's not for you it's not but i don't show up in the Vistana forums to bash Vistana either. I could. 

I know there is change going on, and I know you love your brand. That's cool. But many of us love the Marriott brand too. Travel as you see fit, I'm happy if you enjoy what you are doing. But that doesn't make what anyone else does wrong. 

For me, hate Airbnb and VRBO, not an option. Renting not an option on Redweek, it's not for me for many reasons. For some it is and if you can get what you want, that's great!


----------



## daviator

dioxide45 said:


> When you buy a lock off, you are actually deeded two different VOIs, I am almost certain they each have their own contract number.


None of my Vistana lockoffs have two contract numbers.


----------



## daviator

Clifbell said:


> [Timeshare Traveler Episode 47...  The Marriott Vacation Club / Vistana Merger is happening - MERGED]
> 
> I am excited about the Merger of Marriott Vacation Club finally happening.  It has been a long four + years since the announcement.  The sales team is now showing "informal" updates to what the future merged program will look like.  Of course, there is a "last chance" to buy the benefits to Vistana points.
> 
> In this video, I will discuss the merger as described to me... I will touch on it from a Vistana owner perspective.  I will also discuss my views of the merger from the Marriott Vacation Club perspective.  All in all, I am happy.  I get to be Bonvoy Platinum for life as a result of owning some Marriott Vacation club points and Vistana Points.
> 
> Timeshare Traveler Episode 47...  The Marriott Vacation Club / Vistana Merger is happening
> 
> Map of all my timeshare reviews


I wish people would stop calling it a merger, because it definitely is not a merger. It seems to essentially be an overlay of the DP program over Vistana's network (or part of it, anyway) which qualified Vistana owners can opt into. It remains to be seen how much Vistana inventory will be available on the DP side; many Vistana folks are likely to stick with their current network and their weeks may never enter the DP pool.

I think the new overlay creates some great opportunities on both sides for those who want to travel outside of their native network, but it’s far from a merger of the programs. The Vistana network is embedded in the deeds and isn’t going anywhere.

_*Moderator Note*: [Quote added after posts were merged into this thread.] <--SueDonJ_


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## DanCali

CPNY said:


> Superior is subjective. How can It be superior to me when the 2-3 resorts I love are in the Vistana Network and my Star Options can get me there for 3-4 weeks. I’d have to convert all of my ownerships to get enough DC points for one week at a comparable resort, which wouldn’t be my first choice.
> 
> Dont get me wrong, DC is great, but superior is subjective. Vistana will be superior to me until 2024 when HRA can convert. Again, it would probably take all of my vistana ownerships to get a week at HRA via the DC Exchange when my SO will get me 4 weeks in a one bedroom premium, 5 weeks in a one bedroom deluxe (not a Marriott studio).




I don't know that one is superior over the other. Those like me, who already own in both systems, see advantages and disadvantages in both, and that's probably why they own in both...  

Over the ~15 years since we bought our first week, the common denominator has been (i) buy in places with lower MFs, (ii) buy in places/seasons that have high rental values relative to MFs, (iii) and buy from the developer only if you have a very-very-very good reason to do so. We like where we own and purchases we made over time were buying more weeks in the same locations.

While there haven't been many changes in Vistana in the past 15 years, Marriott certainly rocked things with the DC system and now with the Vistana integration. We've always been trying to maximize the value of our ownership while adhering to the above principles. I expect we will continue to do so in the future.

As an example of how what I mean -- at some point we found ourselves with 3 enrolled MVC weeks totaling about 12,000 DPs with blended MFs of about $0.40/point. But we always used those weeks as "weeks" and rented DC points when needed. I always thought there was merit to the argument of having both points and weeks, but never saw value in buying DC points given the high MFs and the ability to instead rent them when needed at a cost similar to MFs. So instead of buying 12,000 points which would have cost at least $60K (on the resale market) and with MFs of $0.65/point, I decided to replicate our weeks portfolio and buy 3 more identical unenrolled resale weeks at a total cost or around $35K. Now we have 3 pure "weeks" in a location we originally bought pre-DC and still like, and can use our 3 other enrolled weeks as points, or weeks. So we now have ~12,000 DC "points" (via enrolled weeks) with lower upfront cost, lower maintenance fees and more flexibility with usage...!


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## VacationForever

We own at both Vistana and MVC and won't say if one is better than another.  The interesting thing for us is while we bought our MVC timeshare post June 2010 and we are at Presidential level, we rarely use DC points, other than to add on a few days to an II trade.  The best use of DC points we have used todate was when we travelled to Hilton Head and booked exactly when we wanted to be there.  We use II mainly to trade into other MVC weeks (lockoff and trade for 2BR) have rented out DC points when we could not use them. DC certainly offers greater flexibility and availability.  With Vistana, we use SOs to book Fall stays and get greater bang for the buck.


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## CPNY

Steve Fatula said:


> I guess you have not read all the reports of stays being cheaper. I am sure overall they are not, but, it's not like anywhere near disaster levels here. I still find many places to go cheaply and get immense value out of the points the way I use them. Many here including me own DC points, very happy with them. You can scratch your head all you want. If it's not for you it's not but i don't show up in the Vistana forums to bash Vistana either. I could.
> 
> I know there is change going on, and I know you love your brand. That's cool. But many of us love the Marriott brand too. Travel as you see fit, I'm happy if you enjoy what you are doing. But that doesn't make what anyone else does wrong.
> 
> For me, hate Airbnb and VRBO, not an option. Renting not an option on Redweek, it's not for me for many reasons. For some it is and if you can get what you want, that's great!


I completely understand the advantages of ownership and how TS stays work out to be cheaper, I own 5 of them after all and I get much better value from TS usage than booking other sites. Please don’t get so defensive over Marriott. I wasn’t bashing Marriott and if you go back you’ll see how I said the DC is great as well as many of the Marriott resorts being amazing. I understand you have brand loyalty as most of us who bought Vistana have. But I was pointing out that spending tens of thousands of dollars on timeshares is a head scratcher when you can buy resale for half the price. That point is a fact. There obviously reasons why someone may buy more to enroll a resale week, but buying direct from the developer isn’t worth it generally. 

Also, Marriott BOUGHT (as we are always reminded) vistana so we are all Marriott now eh, so I guess it’s ok to be in a Marriott forum? I don’t have to love everything Marriott nor did I love everything vistana. But the point that was being made is, if things change for the negative and some of us are “forced” to spend  a ton of money to participate, we will look for alternate travel options, as there are plenty. One such option I mentioned was renting weeks on redweek for many times less than maintenance fees. I wasn’t making the case that airbnb,vrbo, or renting are better than ownership, because I think just the opposite. It was mentioned that there are alternatives to spending tens of thousands of dollars all over again.


----------



## SueDonJ

_*Moderator Note*: Yep, this is a monster thread. But until official notice is provided to all Vistana owners/members (and hopefully all MVW owners/members simultaneously,) every report from every source - sales presentations included - will be merged into this thread. If we learned anything from the initial rollout of the Destination Club all those years ago, it's that even the sales reps who thought they understood the program, didn't. Please, until you've gotten official notice and written documentation that proves what any Vistana/Marriott employees are telling you, don't open new threads with what is still basically speculation._


----------



## rcv82

daviator said:


> None of my Vistana lockoffs have two contract numbers.



I bought 3 WKORV OFD weeks (resale) together and they are all under 1 contract number. So I don’t think contract number will be the basis for conversion. On my dashboard it also lists the three different underlying weeks, and under each of those weeks it lists the 1 bedroom and the studio and associated StarOptions and the remaining balance by year. Maybe they will make you trade the whole week including both portions of the lock off (I sure hope not), but as you have said, that is inconsistent with how everything thing else in Vistana works. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve Fatula

CPNY said:


> But Yes, spending tens of thousands of dollars on timeshares is a head scratcher when you can buy resale for half the price. That point is a fact.
> 
> Also, Marriott BOUGHT (as we are always reminded) vistana so we are all Marriott now eh, so I guess it’s ok to be in a Marriott forum? I don’t have to love everything Marriott nor did I love everything vistana. But the point that was being made is, if things change for the negative and some of us are “forced” to spend  a ton of money to participate, we will look for alternate travel options, as there are plenty. One such option I mentioned was renting weeks on redweek for many times less than maintenance fees. I wasn’t making the case that airbnb,vrbo, or renting being better than ownership, because I think just the opposite. It was mentioned that there are alternatives to spending tens of thousands of dollars all over again.



Ok, so, no, it is not a fact that spending money for a direct timeshare is a head scratcher when you can buy resale for half the price (Marriott). That would be true if the products were identical, they are not. What you get direct vs resale is different. Of course, it's a moot point for the most part now as you can't buy direct for the most part in the US. But I did buy an enrolled week in Spain and there are benefits to that. Apples and Oranges. Though some do still buy direct in order to change their resales into enrolled weeks.

In order for Marriott to buy Vistana, Vistana had to sell right? So, why not direct that disappointment to Vistana who you were loyal to? Did Marriott force them to sell? (Actually I don't know the motive there). But if Vistana chose to sell, that's the actual problem.

I agree with you that if somehow things got bad and your existing ownership was no longer worth it or desirable, etc., then yes, you might want to look elsewhere rather than throw more money in. Totally and completely agree.

I misunderstood what you were trying to say then. It sounded like you were one of those saying rent everything buy nothing, not even resale. Of course, my question was going to be then why don't you sell what you have but you didn't mean that. Sorry about that,


----------



## CPNY

Steve Fatula said:


> Ok, so, no, it is not a fact that spending money for a direct timeshare is a head scratcher when you can buy resale for half the price (Marriott). That would be true if the products were identical, they are not. What you get direct vs resale is different. Of course, it's a moot point for the most part now as you can't buy direct for the most part in the US. But I did buy an enrolled week in Spain and there are benefits to that. Apples and Oranges. Though some do still buy direct in order to change their resales into enrolled weeks.
> 
> In order for Marriott to buy Vistana, Vistana had to sell right? So, why not direct that disappointment to Vistana who you were loyal to? Did Marriott force them to sell? (Actually I don't know the motive there). But if Vistana chose to sell, that's the actual problem.
> 
> I agree with you that if somehow things got bad and your existing ownership was no longer worth it or desirable, etc., then yes, you might want to look elsewhere rather than throw more money in. Totally and completely agree.
> 
> I misunderstood what you were trying to say then. It sounded like you were one of those saying rent everything buy nothing, not even resale. Of course, my question was going to be then why don't you sell what you have but you didn't mean that. Sorry about that,


Yes there are times where a direct purchase can be beneficial but there are usually specific circumstances around that. A purchase to enroll a week into DC or an enrolled week direct from marriott for some may be worth it. For the most part resale is best. The TUG mantra has always been rescind, research, resale.

I am def not one of those people who are against owning, as a matter of fact I’m closing in another as we speak. Heck, I even bought an independent for RCI points!

for the record I don’t hate Marriott lol


----------



## VacationForever

Everything which we now own was bought directly from the developers.  Buying MVC resale post-June 2010 just does not work for us.  We like the flexibility of being in MVC DC system, even though we use II more than directly booking through points.  We have also resold all of our resale purchases in various systems.


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## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> _*Moderator Note*: Yep, this is a monster thread. But until official notice is provided to all Vistana owners/members (and hopefully all MVW owners/members simultaneously,) every report from every source - sales presentations included - will be merged into this thread. If we learned anything from the initial rollout of the Destination Club all those years ago, it's that even the sales reps who thought they understood the program, didn't. Please, until you've gotten official notice and written documentation that proves what any Vistana/Marriott employees are telling you, don't open new threads with what is still basically speculation._


There have been some marketing materials with fine print that seem to indicate certain things as well images of a number of DC point charts for Vistana properties, so it is not all speculation.


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## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> There have been some marketing materials with fine print that seem to indicate certain things as well images of a number of DC point charts for Vistana properties, so it is not all speculation.


Yes, but what I understand is that people are taking clandestine photos of those materials because the sales reps who are using it to entice sales are not allowing the materials to be taken from the room. For purposes of educating owners/members as to the program specifics, IMO everything is speculation until it's made available to every owner/member through official channels that don't serve only to bolster sales.


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## KS2beach

needvaca said:


> another Tug member said their salesperson said 2600 for the WKV 81,000.  Did you see the 2,850 in writing on a slide,.  or was it just verbal?  I hope it's the 2850


yes we saw it in writing on a slide, we had the 2bedroom lock off gold plus season and the exchange was 2,850.. and I will say seeing the new 2023 book about how many DC points to stay at Westin made my head spin.. so Many breaks and different rates like week by week different almost, I will try and attach a few pics I took  one is of WRF AND OTHER WKV


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## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> Yes, but what I understand is that people are taking clandestine photos of those materials because the sales reps who are using it to entice sales are not allowing the materials to be taken from the room. For purposes of educating owners/members as to the program specifics, IMO everything is speculation until it's made available to every owner/member through official channels that don't serve only to bolster sales.


Sadly, MVC has made the sale office the only method to obtain such information. This seems to be the method that VAC corp has chosen and is endorsing, at least for now, as the official channel.


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## Steve Fatula

CPNY said:


> I am def not one of those people who are against owning, as a matter of fact I’m closing in another as we speak. Heck, I even bought an independent for RCI points!



That is also something I could never do, buy a different system. Optimizing ownership in one system is enough work for me. It may make better financial sense, but money isn't everything. People like you, vacationforever, traveltime, etc. apparently can handle it. I have so much to do as is in my retired life.


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## Red elephant

dioxide45 said:


> Sadly, MVC has made the sale office the only method to obtain such information. This seems to be the method that VAC corp has chosen and is endorsing, at least for now, as the official channel.


I was under the impression this was a soft launch so only sales would have this information. I could be wrong. I called central office and asked for my conversion and the gave me 2600 for SVV. WSJ and Nanea needed tweaking.  I have not called back since then.


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## CPNY

Steve Fatula said:


> That is also something I could never do, buy a different system. Optimizing ownership in one system is enough work for me. It may make better financial sense, but money isn't everything. People like you, vacationforever, traveltime, etc. apparently can handle it. I have so much to do as is in my retired life.


Idk about handle it….. I’m always so dang confused on what to book. My company gave us unlimited PTO so it’s dangerous LOL


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## Ken555

Steve Fatula said:


> Yep, I get it. I would probably be annoyed myself. Though, there is a thread here where numerous people are reporting trips that cost less Bonvoy points since the change.



I’ll have to find that thread.



> And some more also of course. I suppose it depends on the specific properties. For me, not an issue as I just go where it's cheap and I'd want to go anyway. Random places, no plan. That's the way I travel. If today I see something and it's a decent deal I go for it.



I’ve done this many times myself. It’s wonderful to have low expectations and just book and go. 



> My goal is currently to stay at every single MVCI. No good reason, cause I can. For Bonvoy points I have my own way of using them and get great value out of them. Far more than any cashback card. For others, not so much and yes, if it doesn't make sense, change where you send your business. If you truly believe "devalue" then change.



As I wrote, I might. It all depends on how it goes for me, but at the moment it’s not very positive. I’m certainly willing to let the facts prove otherwise.



> There is no problem with sticking with what you have. In the past, that's the way Marriott has worked. They might give you more options, you will likely pay for it, but you could always use what you have as you had it. I have liked that aspect. No one here had to convert to destinations points, their options have remained. I could still have my week unenrolled, but enrolled gave too many advantages that I wanted. Change is always stressful.
> 
> The reason I bought marriott was more destinations originally in program. I don't often travel (other than DSV and Branson) to the same town over and over. I travel all around the world, and while Marriott doesn't have tons of overseas options, where they have it I will go. Yes, could trade into others but want to stay at Marriott where I can. And it was the best choice for that back in 1999. At least for me. I'm not knocking you guys at all. I get it. And I love when timeshares owners of any brand are happy with what they have! See too many horror stories, whether Marriott or any other brand. If you can continue to use what you always had the way you have, then, you should be mostly happy.



Yup.



> But I don't see the point of coming over to Marriott forums and constantly complaining about things you say you don't want. If you don't want or won't use those options, don't!



Y’know, you are being too defensive, as has already been pointed out. I’m a long time timeshare owner and contributor to TUG. I have contributed to many Marriott threads in the past, and my opinion on the current events and how it impacts me might be valuable to others. Your attempt to stop discussion by denigrating my post is unwelcome.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Clifbell

dioxide45 said:


> Sadly, MVC has made the sale office the only method to obtain such information. This seems to be the method that VAC corp has chosen and is endorsing, at least for now, as the official channel.


Certainly my experience... I am hoping this is the "soft launch" and the official launch will be more manageable.


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## rcv82

KS2beach said:


> yes we saw it in writing on a slide, we had the 2bedroom lock off gold plus season and the exchange was 2,850.. and I will say seeing the new 2023 book about how many DC points to stay at Westin made my head spin.. so Many breaks and different rates like week by week different almost, I will try and attach a few pics I took one is of WRF AND OTHER WKV



It’s interesting that they have Westin Riverfront information given that it’s supposedly one of two Vistana resorts not initially participating in the integrated program. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CPNY

rcv82 said:


> It’s interesting that they have Westin Riverfront information given that it’s supposedly one of two Vistana resorts not initially participating in the integrated program.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Makes me wonder if they have the same for Harborside resort


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## Red elephant

CPNY said:


> Makes me wonder if they have the same for Harborside resort


When I asked central sales about HRA they did not have conversion for it yet as it would not be included til 2024.


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## Steve Fatula

Ken555 said:


> Y’know, you are being too defensive, as has already been pointed out.



And as I had already replied back to CPNY but applies to you as well, I obviously misunderstood what you two were saying. As I told him, sorry about that. 

And to use a CPNY word, you say defensive, I say loyal. 

Hopefully all the uncertainty will end before too much longer. Heck, I want to know if I'll be able to stay at various Vistana resorts, esp where there are no Marriotts and how that will work exactly, along with availability, etc. Will be very interesting.


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## dougp26364

dioxide45 said:


> There have been some marketing materials with fine print that seem to indicate certain things as well images of a number of DC point charts for Vistana properties, so it is not all speculation.





SueDonJ said:


> Yes, but what I understand is that people are taking clandestine photos of those materials because the sales reps who are using it to entice sales are not allowing the materials to be taken from the room. For purposes of educating owners/members as to the program specifics, IMO everything is speculation until it's made available to every owner/member through official channels that don't serve only to bolster sales.



It looks real up until the point they won’t let you take the information with you. I’ve seen far to many dog and pony shows from sales teams in the past.

A hard and fast rule of thumb for me is, if I can take the information with me, it’s real. If I can’t, it’s most likely fake news.

I want to believe what I’m seeing, but when they force everyone onto the sales floor for information and won’t let anyone take anything with them other than clandestine pictures……we’ll then it doesn’t pass the sniff test.

I’ll wait until the hard release when it’s all in writing for everyone to see. Until then, I think I’ll stay on my timeshare couch rather than waste time of smoke and mirrors sales presentations where I’m not allowed to take any presentation literature with me.


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## kozykritter

rcv82 said:


> It’s interesting that they have Westin Riverfront information given that it’s supposedly one of two Vistana resorts not initially participating in the integrated program.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It's not participating yet from the Vistana owner side being able to elect DC points. That likely wouldn't affect Marriott owners being able to book with points in the opposite direction if somehow inventory was available to them (take backs, unsold Flex, who knows how!) as a DC exchange transaction once the IT is in place to support it. They had to prepare a DC points chart for every Vistana property for booking use, whether that's at initial program rollout or a year or two from now. It's a sales tool at the very least.

WRF's chart tracks very similar to fellow ski resort Mountainside which makes sense.


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## Eric B

kozykritter said:


> take backs, unsold Flex, who knows how



I would include managed shared bulk inventory deposited in II - others have posted that this does occur.


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## dioxide45

dougp26364 said:


> It looks real up until the point they won’t let you take the information with you. I’ve seen far to many dog and pony shows from sales teams in the past.
> 
> A hard and fast rule of thumb for me is, if I can take the information with me, it’s real. If I can’t, it’s most likely fake news.
> 
> I want to believe what I’m seeing, but when they force everyone onto the sales floor for information and won’t let anyone take anything with them other than clandestine pictures……we’ll then it doesn’t pass the sniff test.
> 
> I’ll wait until the hard release when it’s all in writing for everyone to see. Until then, I think I’ll stay on my timeshare couch rather than waste time of smoke and mirrors sales presentations where I’m not allowed to take any presentation literature with me.


Passing the sniff test and being pure speculation are two different things. They never (rarely) let anything leave the sales floor. Mainly because, well, most developer purchases don't pass the sniff test when you vet them out with your own math on your own time. Thus the "must buy today" of how timeshares are sold. Marriott owners may never get much in writing about the new program other than "here you go, new resorts to book" along with points charts for booking Vistana properties. Vistana owners will hopefully get something more, but who knows. At a hard launch, we will still be relying on others to know how many points people get in exchange for their weeks. Resale owners would then also be able to determine if they can or can't participate. Other than that, there isn't much else to know I guess. We will most likely take in an owner update at SVR when we visit in a little over a month. Most likely because I like the smoke and mirrors and what they might try next. It is all part of the game, and they will give us some fancy gift for our troubles


----------



## Avulasai

I am new to this board…. Would appreciate some feedback. We attended a vistana presentation and bought 81000 star options package for $32k. Everyone said I should rescind. Few questions :
1) any idea after the merger what would be star options to dp points conversion. ?
2) what is an good price for 81000 start options package ? Looks like it generally gives us 1 week or 2 weeks depending on location and timing for a 2 bedroo
3) it’s $32k onetime plus annual maintenance


----------



## byeloe

Avulasai said:


> I am new to this board…. Would appreciate some feedback. We attended a vistana presentation and bought 81000 star options package for $32k. Everyone said I should rescind. Few questions :
> 1) any idea after the merger what would be star options to dp points conversion. ?
> 2) what is an good price for 81000 start options package ? Looks like it generally gives us 1 week or 2 weeks depending on location and timing for a 2 bedroo
> 3) it’s $32k onetime plus annual maintenance


1.  Depends on which resort your options are from.  Maybe in the 2500 point range
2.  81000 from WKV is around $9000 or from SVV maybe $2000 to 4000 ( resale market)


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## Avulasai

byeloe said:


> 1.  Depends on which resort your options are from.  Maybe in the 2500 point range
> 2.  81000 from WKV is around $9000 or from SVV maybe $2000 to 4000 ( resale market)


What resale market ? It appears resale market is only for weeks but not points . I could not find mvc or SVv points


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## byeloe

Avulasai said:


> What resale market ? It appears resale market is only for weeks but not points . I could not find mvc or SVv points


If you buy a Mandatory vistana resort the week comes with Staroptions that you can use to go to other resorts at 8 months.
2bd HIGH Season at SVV-Bella or SVV-Keywest come with 81000 options.  They will cost from $2000 to $4000 resale when you can find them.

A 1BD Platinum large at WKV also comes with 81000 staroptions but will cost from $7000 to $9000


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## DanCali

byeloe said:


> 1.  Depends on which resort your options are from.  Maybe in the 2500 point range
> 2.  81000 from WKV is around $9000 or from SVV maybe $2000 to 4000 ( resale market)




81,000 at WKV can come in the form or a large 1BR Platinum (high) season, or a 2BR lockoff Gold (mid) season.

The 1BR Platinum is significantly more expensive on the resale market than the 2BR Gold due to the lower maintenance fees (and higher rental value compared to MFs). I haven't followed prices but my best guess would be $7K-$9K for the 1BR Platinum vs. $2K-4K for the 2BR Gold.


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## Avulasai

Avulasai said:


> What resale market ? It appears resale market is only for weeks but not points . I could not find mvc or SVv points


Never mind I found it… now what is the difference in buying points on resale Vs directly from Sheraton Vs Marriott directly ? Resale is so cheap…


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## Avulasai

Thank you. now what is the difference in buying points on resale Vs directly from Sheraton Vs Marriott directly ? Resale is so cheap…would Marriott put restrictions if so what kind? For example I want to buy Marriott DP points in resale  and use them on myrtle beach ocean watch. Does anyone know how many points for the peak July seasons for a 2- bedroom


----------



## byeloe

Avulasai said:


> Never mind I found it… now what is the difference in buying points on resale Vs directly from Sheraton Vs Marriott directly ? Resale is so cheap…


The only Vistana points that you can get directly are flex options, either WESTIN FLEX, Sheraton Flex or Westin Aventuras Flex.  They have minimal resale value since the ability to use the options at 8 Months does not transfer to the buyer.

A WKV resale will hold value better.

You can't convert resale options to bonvoy pts(usually not cost effective anyway) or count the options towards Elite status.

Other than that,  resale mandatory star options work exactly the same as developer purchased options


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## Steve Fatula

Avulasai said:


> Thank you. now what is the difference in buying points on resale Vs directly from Sheraton Vs Marriott directly ? Resale is so cheap…would Marriott put restrictions if so what kind? For example I want to buy Marriott DP points in resale  and use them on myrtle beach ocean watch. Does anyone know how many points for the peak July seasons for a 2- bedroom



There is no difference between resale Marriott points and direct Marriott points, except, you have to pay various junk fees to get full use of them, one time fees. See: https://vacationpointexchange.com/resale/. There is a large resale market out there, most any place that sells resale timeshares sells resale points. Peak season July ranges from 3450 to 5400 depending on exact dates and view. As little as 600 points for a week in winter.


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## Fasttr

Avulasai said:


> Does anyone know how many points for the peak July seasons for a 2- bedroom


Points charts can be found here.....


			https://vacationpointexchange.com/pointschart/points_charts_2022.pdf


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## CPNY

Avulasai said:


> I am new to this board…. Would appreciate some feedback. We attended a vistana presentation and bought 81000 star options package for $32k. Everyone said I should rescind. Few questions :
> 1) any idea after the merger what would be star options to dp points conversion. ?
> 2) what is an good price for 81000 start options package ? Looks like it generally gives us 1 week or 2 weeks depending on location and timing for a 2 bedroo
> 3) it’s $32k onetime plus annual maintenance


Listen to everyone….. do you think you you’ll get different information here?


----------



## Avulasai

CPNY said:


> Listen to everyone….. do you think you you’ll get different information here?


Thank you.


----------



## CPNY

Avulasai said:


> Thank you. now what is the difference in buying points on resale Vs directly from Sheraton Vs Marriott directly ? Resale is so cheap…would Marriott put restrictions if so what kind? For example I want to buy Marriott DP points in resale  and use them on myrtle beach ocean watch. Does anyone know how many points for the peak July seasons for a 2- bedroom


This is the wrong thread for this discussion. Post a new thread in the Marriott forum


----------



## o2bonn

dioxide45 said:


> Passing the sniff test and being pure speculation are two different things. They never (rarely) let anything leave the sales floor. Mainly because, well, most developer purchases don't pass the sniff test when you vet them out with your own math on your own time. Thus the "must buy today" of how timeshares are sold. Marriott owners may never get much in writing about the new program other than "here you go, new resorts to book" along with points charts for booking Vistana properties. Vistana owners will hopefully get something more, but who knows. At a hard launch, we will still be relying on others to know how many points people get in exchange for their weeks. Resale owners would then also be able to determine if they can or can't participate. Other than that, there isn't much else to know I guess. We will most likely take in an owner update at SVR when we visit in a little over a month. Most likely because I like the smoke and mirrors and what they might try next. It is all part of the game, and they will give us some fancy gift for our troubles


Here is a pic from the new book …


----------



## dougp26364

dioxide45 said:


> Passing the sniff test and being pure speculation are two different things. They never (rarely) let anything leave the sales floor. Mainly because, well, most developer purchases don't pass the sniff test when you vet them out with your own math on your own time. Thus the "must buy today" of how timeshares are sold. Marriott owners may never get much in writing about the new program other than "here you go, new resorts to book" along with points charts for booking Vistana properties. Vistana owners will hopefully get something more, but who knows. At a hard launch, we will still be relying on others to know how many points people get in exchange for their weeks. Resale owners would then also be able to determine if they can or can't participate. Other than that, there isn't much else to know I guess. We will most likely take in an owner update at SVR when we visit in a little over a month. Most likely because I like the smoke and mirrors and what they might try next. It is all part of the game, and they will give us some fancy gift for our troubles



True enough. But once everything is official, owners can find most of the information, rules and points values required to book online. Right now it’s just something a salesman is showing prospects with no real way to confirm if it’s accurate.

Sometimes I don’t mind watching the rodeo. I’m just not buying the bull.


----------



## JIMinNC

daviator said:


> I wish people would stop calling it a merger, because it definitely is not a merger. It seems to essentially be an overlay of the DP program over Vistana's network (or part of it, anyway) which qualified Vistana owners can opt into.



I think the terminology - merger vs. overlay - is sort of just semantics, and may depend upon whether you are looking at this from the VSN side or the Marriott side. Clearly from the VSN side, this looks more like an overlay, since it's a new option overlaid on the VSN network. But in that same sense, on the MVC side, the DP Program was also an overlay on top of the original MVC weeks program when DP was launched back in 2010. But ever since June 2010, DP has been the program that is sold in the sales offices and any new resorts go into DP, not weeks. I think very soon, maybe even this summer, VSN will no longer be sold in the sales offices. Existing VSN owner privileges will live on, but not for new sales. After some point all new sales will be DP at all Marriott, Westin, Sheraton locations.

So, from the MVC side, it looks like the VSN program is being assimilated within the broader Marriott program in the the exact same way our weeks program was assimilated in 2010. Weeks were the legacy MVC program that the DP Program replaced for new sales, but existing weeks rights lived on for those of us who still want to play with weeks rather than DPs. VSN is another legacy program that the DP Program will replace for new sales, but which will live on for legacy owners who chose to use their weeks or StarOptions rather than DPs. In that way, it is more of a merger than an overlay, since sometime in the months ahead all new VOI sales will be DPs - one consolidated product that two legacy programs - MVC weeks and VSN - are affiliated with.


----------



## jabberwocky

JIMinNC said:


> I think very soon, maybe even this summer, VSN will no longer be sold in the sales offices. Existing VSN owner privileges will live on, but not for new sales. After some point all new sales will be DP at all Marriott, Westin, Sheraton locations.


Just a point of clarification - Vistana has never sold “VSN”. VSN itself is an overlay on the weeks system - you never really own StarOptions - it has always been what value does your week or HomeOptions convert into within VSN. It is a subtle point, but one I think some of the Marriott folks don’t have a full appreciation of given their experience with DP.

The only “points” that they have ever sold on the Vistana side have been in one of the flex programs or at select individual resorts (ie Nanea). But these programs were relatively new, and a small percentage of the overall ownership. What you are saying may be true for the “voluntary” resorts that lose their SO exchange value when sold on the resale market; but the mandatory VOIs will still retain their ability to convert to SO.

At any rate, I think it will probably be at least 10-15 years before we see any real impact on ability to book within VSN given the disparity between the proposed DP values and SO values for certain resorts.


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## rcv82

byeloe said:


> The only Vistana points that you can get directly are flex options, either WESTIN FLEX, Sheraton Flex or Westin Aventuras Flex. They have minimal resale value since the ability to use the options at 8 Months does not transfer to the buyer.
> 
> A WKV resale will hold value better.
> 
> You can't convert resale options to bonvoy pts(usually not cost effective anyway) or count the options towards Elite status.
> 
> Other than that, resale mandatory star options work exactly the same as developer purchased options



Resale Flex can be a good way to go depending on your needs. While “voluntary” meaning the ability to use StarOptions at 8 months does not apply unless retro’ed with another purchase, you have the ability to book any resort in your Flex ownership plan for anytime beginning at 12 months for any duration up to two weeks at a time. So what you don’t get it the ability to book other Vistana resorts outside your plan at 8 months unless requalified. I see very cheap Sheraton Flex often, but not so much on Westin Flex. 

I will also note that if you can get resale Flex cheap, it really isn’t going to lose value from the resale price—the original purchaser already took that hit. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wjarcher

jabberwocky said:


> Just a point of clarification - Vistana has never sold “VSN”. VSN itself is an overlay on the weeks system - you never really own StarOptions - it has always been what value does your week or HomeOptions convert into within VSN. It is a subtle point, but one I think some of the Marriott folks don’t have a full appreciation of given their experience with DP.
> 
> The only “points” that they have ever sold on the Vistana side have been in one of the flex programs or at select individual resorts (ie Nanea). But these programs were relatively new, and a small percentage of the overall ownership. What you are saying may be true for the “voluntary” resorts that lose their SO exchange value when sold on the resale market; but the mandatory VOIs will still retain their ability to convert to SO.
> 
> At any rate, I think it will probably be at least 10-15 years before we see any real impact on ability to book within VSN given the disparity between the proposed DP values and SO values for certain resorts.



My concern after the introduction of the new system is mainly about the VSN availability of the popular resort such as WKORV/N which are assigned with much higher DP value.  We've been using SVV to trade in Maui to add on the week we own there, how likely can i continue to do so.


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## dougp26364

Here’s what I have gleaned from everything I’ve read and heard

1. nothing is finalized. Everything is subject to change, but it’s unlikely there will be major changes
2. Westin/Vistana/Sheraton owners will maintain their current usage rights exactly like they have them now. They will continue to be able to use their ownership as they always have without interruption
3. Westin/Vistana/Sheraton owners will have the option to elect participation in Marriotts Destination Club on an annual basis (I haven’t seen mention of the timeframe to elect this option).
4. Marriott owners will only have access to Westin/Vistana/Sheraton inventory that has been elected by those owners to be deposited/converted toDestination Points.
5. once the program is finalized, only Destination Club Points will be sold
6. Once the program is finalized, any unsold inventory with Westin/Vistana/Sheraton will be deposited into the Destination Club trust.
7. MVC owners are not likely to see much Westin/Vistana/Sheraton inventory in the DC until 2024 and more likely 2025.
8. I anticipate Westin/Vistana/Sheraton owners who are not TUG members may be more excited about the prospect of all the MVC locations and will test the availability.
9. I anticipate there will still be the Marriott “skim”(given fewer points than it takes to reserve what you currently hold), and this will limit the number of Westin/Vistana/Sheraton conversions to the DC is those owners can find what they want in their own program.
10. As points reservations become more popular, weeks exchanges will become a little more difficult to obtain, but this will take many years (decades) to play out.

What we don’t know is when this will be finalized or the exact date that they wil, stop selling the current program. Sales does not appear to be guaranteeing anything, making this an informed guess/rumor IMHO with guidance by Mother Marriott. I do believe that all sales material has been provided by mother Marriott. I believe the soft launch is designed to get feedback from owners at the sales presentations to see what works and what might not work, allowing for time to tweak the program, as in tweak the points given for any particular week (up/down) based on current owner response.

The most important thing I’m taking away from all this discussion is that nothing is finalized and everything is subject to change. That makes all of this informed speculation IMHO with a pretty solid source for that speculation. Still, I would not recommend buying additional time/points unless it is to provide additional vacation time with full, current ownership usage rights in the group of resorts you prefer. I would not buy now based on a program that is still subject to change. IOW, if I wanted Marriott Destination Club access, I’d buyDestination Club points, either direct or resale, rather than increase my Westin/Vistana/Sheraton ownership on the promise of conversion rights. If I wanted to lock in Westin/Vistana/Sheraton first right privileges then I’d increase my ownership in that group before the opportunity is gone


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## GregT

dougp26364 said:


> Here’s what I have gleaned from everything I’ve read and heard
> 
> 1. nothing is finalized. Everything is subject to change, but it’s unlikely there will be major changes
> 2. Westin/Vistana/Sheraton owners will maintain their current usage rights exactly like they have them now. They will continue to be able to use their ownership as they always have without interruption
> 3. Westin/Vistana/Sheraton owners will have the option to elect participation in Marriotts Destination Club on an annual basis (I haven’t seen mention of the timeframe to elect this option).
> 4. Marriott owners will only have access to Westin/Vistana/Sheraton inventory that has been elected by those owners to be deposited/converted toDestination Points.
> 5. once the program is finalized, only Destination Club Points will be sold
> 6. Once the program is finalized, any unsold inventory with Westin/Vistana/Sheraton will be deposited into the Destination Club trust.
> 7. MVC owners are not likely to see much Westin/Vistana/Sheraton inventory in the DC until 2024 and more likely 2025.
> 8. I anticipate Westin/Vistana/Sheraton owners who are not TUG members may be more excited about the prospect of all the MVC locations and will test the availability.
> 9. I anticipate there will still be the Marriott “skim”(given fewer points than it takes to reserve what you currently hold), and this will limit the number of Westin/Vistana/Sheraton conversions to the DC is those owners can find what they want in their own program.
> 10. As points reservations become more popular, weeks exchanges will become a little more difficult to obtain, but this will take many years (decades) to play out.
> 
> What we don’t know is when this will be finalized or the exact date that they wil, stop selling the current program. Sales does not appear to be guaranteeing anything, making this an informed guess/rumor IMHO with guidance by Mother Marriott. I do believe that all sales material has been provided by mother Marriott. I believe the soft launch is designed to get feedback from owners at the sales presentations to see what works and what might not work, allowing for time to tweak the program, as in tweak the points given for any particular week (up/down) based on current owner response.
> 
> The most important thing I’m taking away from all this discussion is that nothing is finalized and everything is subject to change. That makes all of this informed speculation IMHO with a pretty solid source for that speculation. Still, I would not recommend buying additional time/points unless it is to provide additional vacation time with full, current ownership usage rights in the group of resorts you prefer. I would not buy now based on a program that is still subject to change. IOW, if I wanted Marriott Destination Club access, I’d buyDestination Club points, either direct or resale, rather than increase my Westin/Vistana/Sheraton ownership on the promise of conversion rights. If I wanted to lock in Westin/Vistana/Sheraton first right privileges then I’d increase my ownership in that group before the opportunity is gone


Thank you Doug, this is a very nice summary of the current position, as we understand it.

From a Marriott owner perspective, Point #6 is most important to understand — how much unsold inventory actually exists and/or has Marriott been actively ROFRing the high quality Westin’s for the last year for purposes of building that inventory?

I own Starwood and bought so that I can access specific properties (Westin Princeville, primarily but have also visited Harborside, Lagunamar and WKORV).  It is interesting to open up the possibility of now accessing them with DC points (Harborside TBD) and I am curious how the value and availability will unfold between the two systems.   This is a tough one for Marriott and I don’t envy them the complexities.

Thanks again for your fine summary!

Best,

Greg


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## Eric B

dougp26364 said:


> 6. Once the program is finalized, any unsold inventory with Westin/Vistana/Sheraton will be deposited into the Destination Club trust.



This one seems a bit speculative.  There are some categories of unsold inventory that the developer has chosen not to deposit into the Flex trusts because of its higher value separate from those trusts (e.g., the oceanfront WKORV/N units) and some that isn't included in any of the Flex trust products (e.g., WSJ).  I haven't seen anything that would indicate that unsold inventory will be deposited in the Destination Club trust and I'm not sure that depositing it would be necessary or potentially even possible due to the way some of them are set up.


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## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> Passing the sniff test and being pure speculation are two different things. They never (rarely) let anything leave the sales floor. Mainly because, well, most developer purchases don't pass the sniff test when you vet them out with your own math on your own time. Thus the "must buy today" of how timeshares are sold. Marriott owners may never get much in writing about the new program other than "here you go, new resorts to book" along with points charts for booking Vistana properties. Vistana owners will hopefully get something more, but who knows. At a hard launch, we will still be relying on others to know how many points people get in exchange for their weeks. Resale owners would then also be able to determine if they can or can't participate. Other than that, there isn't much else to know I guess. We will most likely take in an owner update at SVR when we visit in a little over a month. Most likely because I like the smoke and mirrors and what they might try next. It is all part of the game, and they will give us some fancy gift for our troubles


I think that Vistana owners who choose to "enroll" (or whatever terminology is used) their eligible ownerships in the DC Exchange Company will get the same documentation as is given to owners of Marriott Weeks, at the least a copy of the "Enrollment Agreement" and "Exchange Procedures" governing documents, either the existing versions as amended to include Vistana-specific requirements/language or versions separate and distinct. (I don't know for a fact if it's mandated by law that MVW provide those in the same way that it's mandated that Weeks purchasers must be provided certain docs, but I suspect it probably is because they only ever distribute informational materials to satisfy legal requirements.) I agree with you that MVW won't ever publish for public consumption a chart showing the DC Points election values of Vistana Weeks or Points, because if it were a legal requirement they would have published such a list for Marriott Weeks.

I'm looking forward to your report following your upcoming sales presentation.


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## SueDonJ

o2bonn said:


> Here is a pic from the new book …View attachment 51104


In talking about this being a "soft launch" - I think it's great that MVW learned something from the initial Destination Club launch and is providing at least the developed Points Charts for Vistana properties. But I'm hesitant to say that MVW's purpose with a "soft launch" is for them to be able to tweak things prior to the "official" rollout, one reason being because the information they're releasing must have already received approval from the regulatory agencies and it's already in the same book form that we remember from the initial DC rollout. If history is any indication, there won't be tweaks made to these Points Charts until the 2024 charts are tweaked to reflect changes in days/dates of holidays.

The one footnote, "Resort is available using Club Points only through the MVC Exchange Company," is interesting. At the initial rollout that language confused us a bit, until we figured out fairly early on that it meant that no intervals at those resorts had to that point been conveyed to the DC Trust. If the same footnote is on every page in the Vistana Points Charts, it will be interesting going forward to learn if MVW ever intends to convey non-MVC-branded intervals to the DC Trust or if the integration of any other timeshare systems will only ever be via the DC Exchange Company.


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## Eric B

SueDonJ said:


> The one footnote, "Resort is available using Club Points only through the MVC Exchange Company," is interesting. At the initial rollout that language confused us a bit, until we figured out fairly early on that it meant that no intervals at those resorts had to that point been conveyed to the DC Trust. If the same footnote is on every page in the Vistana Points Charts, it will be interesting going forward to learn if MVW ever intends to convey non-MVC-branded intervals to the DC Trust or if the integration of any other timeshare systems will only ever be via the DC Exchange Company.



That footnote has been in all of the full pictures I've seen posted for Vistana points charts (Kierland, WKORV/N, Lagunamar, and SVV).


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## SueDonJ

dougp26364 said:


> Here’s what I have gleaned from everything I’ve read and heard
> 
> 1. nothing is finalized. Everything is subject to change, but it’s unlikely there will be major changes
> 2. Westin/Vistana/Sheraton owners will maintain their current usage rights exactly like they have them now. They will continue to be able to use their ownership as they always have without interruption
> 3. Westin/Vistana/Sheraton owners will have the option to elect participation in Marriotts Destination Club on an annual basis (I haven’t seen mention of the timeframe to elect this option).
> 4. Marriott owners will only have access to Westin/Vistana/Sheraton inventory that has been elected by those owners to be deposited/converted toDestination Points.
> 5. once the program is finalized, only Destination Club Points will be sold
> 6. Once the program is finalized, any unsold inventory with Westin/Vistana/Sheraton will be deposited into the Destination Club trust.
> 7. MVC owners are not likely to see much Westin/Vistana/Sheraton inventory in the DC until 2024 and more likely 2025.
> 8. I anticipate Westin/Vistana/Sheraton owners who are not TUG members may be more excited about the prospect of all the MVC locations and will test the availability.
> 9. I anticipate there will still be the Marriott “skim”(given fewer points than it takes to reserve what you currently hold), and this will limit the number of Westin/Vistana/Sheraton conversions to the DC is those owners can find what they want in their own program.
> 10. As points reservations become more popular, weeks exchanges will become a little more difficult to obtain, but this will take many years (decades) to play out.
> 
> What we don’t know is when this will be finalized or the exact date that they wil, stop selling the current program. Sales does not appear to be guaranteeing anything, making this an informed guess/rumor IMHO with guidance by Mother Marriott. I do believe that all sales material has been provided by mother Marriott. I believe the soft launch is designed to get feedback from owners at the sales presentations to see what works and what might not work, allowing for time to tweak the program, as in tweak the points given for any particular week (up/down) based on current owner response.
> 
> The most important thing I’m taking away from all this discussion is that nothing is finalized and everything is subject to change. That makes all of this informed speculation IMHO with a pretty solid source for that speculation. Still, I would not recommend buying additional time/points unless it is to provide additional vacation time with full, current ownership usage rights in the group of resorts you prefer. I would not buy now based on a program that is still subject to change. IOW, if I wanted Marriott Destination Club access, I’d buyDestination Club points, either direct or resale, rather than increase my Westin/Vistana/Sheraton ownership on the promise of conversion rights. If I wanted to lock in Westin/Vistana/Sheraton first right privileges then I’d increase my ownership in that group before the opportunity is gone


My one vehement disagreement is with your #4. We learned from an early-edition DC FAQ from Marriott that requests for DC Points exchanges could be fulfilled through machinations other than just owners electing DC Points. That particular FAQ has long since disappeared but I saved the quoted language and deliberately put it in the TUG DC Points FAQ because I don't understand why the "DC Exchange Company intervals come only from owners who elect" notion continues to flourish.

From Page 2 of the TUG FAQ:
>>_~~ Inventory Sources for DC Points Usage ~~_
MVCI Weeks and MVCD Points inventory is kept separate according to the terms of each system's governing documents in order to protect Owners/Members ownership and usage rights. Inventory available through the DC Exchange Company is sourced from Marriott-controlled deposits as well as (according to a no-longer-available FAQ that had been posted to the owners' website during the early DC years,) _"... other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International."_<<

As for #7 re when we'll start to see Vistana intervals available in the DC Exchange Company, I think it'll be immediately after the official launch if MVW is able to machinate Vistana intervals as it has always been able to machinate MVC intervals. It won't be a great deal of inventory at the beginning, of course, but there's no way that MVW will allow the official launch to happen with the success of this chapter dependent only on recalcitrant Vistana owners. They know as well as we do that the initial takeaway for Vistana owners/members will be mostly negative, because that's just human nature, and they need exchanges to happen quickly so as to entice Vistana owners/members to enroll.

I can't even make a guess as to if/when Vistana intervals might end up somehow in the DC Trust, am counting on all you Trust experts to educate me.


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## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> Since you don’t care for the beach, I can see why you will enjoy it. The beach is def my thing, much more so than the resort. What I love is a big room, my own kitchen, and a washer dryer. After that…..get me to the pristine beach! Lol. No one is denying the quality of the Ritz being impeccable. That’s a fact that we can all agree on. For you, the high point value will be worth it. For me, I’d rather multiple trips at a “nice” resort. It sounds like the beaches at MFC, Ritz, and WSJ are all comparable. For that reason I’d choose WSJ because I’d rather spend my time on the isle of St John.
> 
> A combined program wouldn’t help me to achieve that better than the VSN. That was my original Point. I’m not knocking the DC, I’m just saying that it won’t work in my favor. That’s ok, that’s the rules of the game. Doesn’t mean I’m on the losing end (yet). For me the VSN is a winning bet, until MVW Erodes the inventory. When the game changes so will my strategy. No biggie, it makes ownership fun I guess, keeps ya on your toes haha.



The beach at WSJ and MFC are not good beaches. Not sure why people keep acting like WSJ has a good beach. The beach at WSJ is worse than the one at Ritz Carlton St Thomas. You can drive to the good beaches in WSJ and lug your stuff around. If you really are a beach lover, then you would not stay at WSJ. You would want to stay directly on a great beach and be able to walk out.

You keep taking about the high point value of the Ritz. I already told you that the point value in the summer is about the same as MFC. I do not mind the comparisons but I would appreciate if people would be accurate when making comparisons about something objective like point values.

When we stay at the Ritz St Thomas in June, I am planning to take many sailing excursions directly from the Ritz on their private sailboat and sail around St John. To me, that is the way to go for ocean lovers. I am an ocean lover and prefer sailing over sitting on a beach. I like to be on the ocean or sitting in a beautiful resort looking at the ocean more than sitting in the sun on the beach. I need a lot of shade so even an umbrella does not cut it in the sun on the beach. I like to rent a cabana or at least the chairs that roll over you. Those block the sun well.

I think you should take this discussion over to the Vistana forum. Unless you own DPs with MVC and have stayed at the Ritz Carlton, I am not sure why you would making such strong comments on something you do not understand.


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## Fasttr

SueDonJ said:


> It won't be a great deal of inventory at the beginning, of course, but there's no way that MVW will allow the official launch to happen with the success of this chapter dependent only on *recalcitrant *Vistana owners.


recalcitrant  

Now that's an SAT word!!  ;-)


----------



## SueDonJ

Eric B said:


> This one seems a bit speculative.  There are some categories of unsold inventory that the developer has chosen not to deposit into the Flex trusts because of its higher value separate from those trusts (e.g., the oceanfront WKORV/N units) and some that isn't included in any of the Flext trust products (e.g., WSJ).  I haven't seen anything that would indicate that unsold inventory will be deposited in the Destination Club trust and I'm not sure that depositing it would be necessary or potentially even possible due to the way some of them are set up.


I agree that there is no need for MVW to consolidate all of the inventory under its umbrella to the DC Trust, because the separate and distinct DC Exchange Company serves perfectly as the conduit through which any and all inventory can be manipulated by MVW. There is nothing to say that they couldn't continue to sell MVW- and Vistana-branded intervals exactly the way they're being sold today, keeping the Vistana (and any other timeshare company) integration to only the DC Exchange Company.

The thing, though, is that during investor calls while talking about the integration they have repeatedly referenced a single points product. What remains to be seen is whether that will happen in the form of actual DC Trust conveyances of Vistana intervals or via another layer of integration combining DC Points with Flex (or any other Vistana points.)


----------



## CPNY

SueDonJ said:


> My one vehement disagreement is with your #4. We learned from an early-edition DC FAQ from Marriott that requests for DC Points exchanges could be fulfilled through machinations other than just owners electing DC Points. That particular FAQ has long since disappeared but I saved the quoted language and deliberately put it in the TUG DC Points FAQ because I don't understand why the "DC Exchange Company intervals come only from owners who elect" notion continues to flourish.
> 
> From Page 2 of the TUG FAQ:
> >>_~~ Inventory Sources for DC Points Usage ~~_
> MVCI Weeks and MVCD Points inventory is kept separate according to the terms of each system's governing documents in order to protect Owners/Members ownership and usage rights. Inventory available through the DC Exchange Company is sourced from Marriott-controlled deposits as well as (according to a no-longer-available FAQ that had been posted to the owners' website during the early DC years,) _"... other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International."_<<
> 
> As for #7 re when we'll start to see Vistana intervals available in the DC Exchange Company, I think it'll be immediately after the official launch if MVW is able to machinate Vistana intervals as it has always been able to machinate MVC intervals. It won't be a great deal of inventory at the beginning, of course, but there's no way that MVW will allow the official launch to happen with the success of this chapter dependent only on recalcitrant Vistana owners. They know as well as we do that the initial takeaway for Vistana owners/members will be mostly negative, because that's just human nature, and they need exchanges to happen quickly so as to entice Vistana owners/members to enroll.
> 
> I can't even make a guess as to if/when Vistana intervals might end up somehow in the DC Trust, am counting on all you Trust experts to educate me.



I posted this in the other thread. The last section “d” states that the network operator, in this case MVW can make reservations in anticipation of Bonvoy point conversions as well as external exchange. I’m sure MVW will make less bulk deposits into interval and put some into the DC Exchange in anticipation of amount VSE owners converting to participate in the DC program. So I agree, there will be Vistana inventory in the DC at the onset. I’m sure DVC did the same thing with interval, which is why we saw DSS inventory in II very quickly! 


CPNY said:


> Ok so going through governing documents I would love some clarification on this stuff and to hear your thoughts. I see vistana East vacation club consists of Bella/Key West, HRA, and WSJ. Each of these has their own verbiage of being part of the club. Here is what it says for Key West SVV: I assume this is just the “mandatory” aspect.
> 
> “_Key West. Key West will be sold on a fee title basis. The fee simple title to the Key West property will be submitted to the condominium form of ownership. Units in Key West are being sold subject to a vacation ownership plan. Under the Club Resort vacation ownership plan for Key West, fee title to a VOI, consisting of an undivided 1/52nd interest in the Owner's Unit as tenant in common with the other Owners of VOIs in that Unit, is conveyed to a Purchaser. A Unit is committed to the Club Resort vacation ownership plan on the recording by the Developer of the first deed to a VOI in such Unit, which first deed will also designate the specific VOI being conveyed in that Unit. Title to VOIs will be transferred to Purchasers by a special warranty deed pursuant to the terms of a purchase agreement.
> As described above and as set forth in the Club Resort Affiliation Agreement for Key West, membership in the Club is an inseparable part of each Club Resort VOI in Key West. Therefore, when a Purchaser acquires a Club Resort VOI in Key West, the Purchaser automatically becomes a Club Member.” _
> 
> Here is what is said regarding the Club, which is different than the network. The network which is the VSN is just an exchange. Now that there will be another exchange I assume that mandatory club members must have access to that exchange as well? Here is what it says:
> 
> _“The Club currently is affiliated with the Vistana Signature Network, an exchange program under Florida law, pursuant to a Network Affiliation Agreement. Not all of the Network Resorts are Club Resorts. At Club Resorts, all owners are required to be Club Members. Only the Club Resorts are component sites of the Club multisite vacation ownership plan under Florida law. Subject to availability and pursuant to the Network Rules for the Vistana East Vacation Club, all Network Members will have the opportunity to reserve accommodations and related facilities located at their Home Resort and other Network Resorts, if any, that are affiliated with the Network from time to time.
> Pursuant to the Network Affiliation Agreement for the Club, Club Operator also has contracted with Network Operator for Network Operator to perform certain obligations and duties of Club Operator under each Club Affiliation Agreement, including the operation of the reservation system for the Club.”_
> 
> Last but not least, Does this give MVW the right to take units from the VSN to place into the DC exchange? does this silence the “MVW can’t take inventory from the VSN and put it into the DCE” crowd? Or is this for interval bulk deposits? It could be a case for funding the DCE considering the DCE is an external exchange. ITS about to get real if that’s the case. If the DCE is not considered an external exchange and is a network exchange like the VSN, how could they keep club members out of converting?
> 
> _“d. Network Float Period. The Network Float Period begins eight (8) months prior to the Check-in Day for a given Vacation Period and ends sixty (60) days prior to the Check-in Day. It follows the Home Resort Reservation Period for a given Vacation Period and precedes the Network Options Period. During the Network Float Period, all Network Members must compete with other Network Members for reservations on a first-come, first-served basis for a reservation for any available Vacation Period that the Network Member has sufficient StarOptions to reserve. Due to the automatic reservation of Reserved Periods as described in Section 4.2.a(2), the availability of such Vacation Periods may be limited.
> *Network Members also will compete with Network Operator for reservations during the Network Float Period with respect to Network Operator's rights to make reservations for bulk banking for external exchange and anticipating Network Member demand to access the Starwood Preferred Guest Program as discussed above.”*_


----------



## SueDonJ

Fasttr said:


> recalcitrant
> 
> Now that's an SAT word!!  ;-)


Words, I can do but you can keep your filthy math!


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> I think that Vistana owners who choose to "enroll" (or whatever terminology is used) their eligible ownerships in the DC Exchange Company will get the same documentation as is given to owners of Marriott Weeks, at the least a copy of the "Enrollment Agreement" and "Exchange Procedures" governing documents, either the existing versions as amended to include Vistana-specific requirements/language or versions separate and distinct. (I don't know for a fact if it's mandated by law that MVW provide those in the same way that it's mandated that Weeks purchasers must be provided certain docs, but I suspect it probably is because they only ever distribute informational materials to satisfy legal requirements.) I agree with you that MVW won't ever publish for public consumption a chart showing the DC Points election values of Vistana Weeks or Points, because if it were a legal requirement they would have published such a list for Marriott Weeks.
> 
> I'm looking forward to your report following your upcoming sales presentation.




I'm curious how they will match ownership in Vistana with existing MVC ownerships. Will they be using only the Bonvoy numbers on file?


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## TravelTime

I am still scratching my head and wondering why people who do not own at Marriott, and especially the ones who do not own DPs, are coming over to the Marriott forum to complain about Ritz Carlton and Marriott? I can see if you are an owner and complaining about Marriott on this forum. But I would not go to the Wyndham forum and complain about them because I do not own there. I would go there if I were considering buying there. More than likely, Vistana owners will not lose anything with the integration. There is a lot of fear right now for Vistana owners and I get that because I am a Vistana owner too. But let’s wait and see. No use freaking out in advance.


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## TravelTime

CPNY said:


> So many other great travel options! VRBO, AIRBNB, Great resort deals constantly being Advertised, or just renting on redweek for less than MF in many cases. Spending tens of thousands of dollars on timeshare points is a real head scratcher!
> 
> the devaluation on the hotel side is terrible! While MVW is separate from Marriott hotels, we know the apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree.



For some people, this is true. If spending a lot on timeshares is a head scratcher, why do you own Harborside? Isn’t that the most expensive resort within the VSN? Also it is a hard one to unload even for a dollar. I looked at buying over there but it made no sense even for a dollar.


----------



## SueDonJ

TravelTime said:


> I am still scratching my head and wondering why people who do not own at Marriott, and especially the ones who do not own DPs, are coming over to the Marriott forum to complain about Ritz Carlton and Marriott? I can see if you are an owner and complaining about Marriott on this forum. But I would not go to the Wyndham forum and complain about them because I do not own there. I would go there if I were considering buying there. More than likely, Vistana owners will not lose anything with the integration. There is a lot of fear right now for Vistana owners and I get that because I am a Vistana owner too. But let’s wait and see. No use freaking out in advance.


I don't blame Vistana owners for reading any- and everything under the sun wherever they can find it, this forum included. We mods have actually made a point of letting both groups of Vistana and Marriott people know that there are threads in each of the forums and we encourage everyone to participate for their own and their fellow TUGgers' benefit.

As for the negativity, there has always been and will always be people with a definite preference for one of the brands over the other. It's best to just roll with it because it's never going away. Sometimes I choose to defend my preference for Marriott as fiercely as any Vistana people will defend theirs. Unless it violates TUG Rules, anybody else is free to do the same.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> The beach at WSJ and MFC are not good beaches. Not sure why people keep acting like WSJ has a good beach. The beach at WSJ is worse than the one at Ritz Carlton St Thomas. You can drive to the good beaches in WSJ and lug your stuff around. If you really are a beach lover, then you would not stay at WSJ. You would want to stay directly on a great beach and be able to walk out.
> 
> You keep taking about the high point value of the Ritz. I already told you that the point value in the summer is about the same as MFC. I do not mind the comparisons but I would appreciate if people would be accurate when making comparisons about something objective like point values.
> 
> When we stay at the Ritz St Thomas in June, I am planning to take many sailing excursions directly from the Ritz on their private sailboat and sail around St John. To me, that is the way to go for ocean lovers. I am an ocean lover and prefer sailing over sitting on a beach. I like to be on the ocean or sitting in a beautiful resort looking at the ocean more than sitting in the sun on the beach. I need a lot of shade so even an umbrella does not cut it in the sun on the beach. I like to rent a cabana or at least the chairs that roll over you. Those block the sun well.
> 
> I think you should take this discussion over to the Vistana forum. Unless you own DPs with MVC and have stayed at the Ritz Carlton, I am not sure why you would making such strong comments on something you do not understand.


How you do the beach and the ocean is different than others. As I have point out in the post you quoted. If you go back and read it you’ll see what I said about the Ritz. I’ll say it again. “No one is denying the quality of the Ritz being impeccable, that’s a fact we can all agree on”. Clearly you are just being a bit defensive as well.

I think this thread should only be in the vistana forum and both have the same title so I am free to comment on any thread I feel. I am a paid tug member after all. I never understood the whole “you can’t post in a Marriott forum if you don’t own Marriott” it’s very elitist and makes you sounds privileged. But since we are discussing MARRIOTT OWNED RESORTS, I can comment and post regarding what own. Again, it is a high point value when I can get 4 weeks at the WSJ but only end up with 1 at MFC or the Ritz.i am absolutely not bashing Marriott resorts or the quality. Trust me, WSJ isn’t the greatest, I know this. If you go back you’ll see where I said I would just rather be on the island of St John.


----------



## Eric B

TravelTime said:


> I am still scratching my head and wondering why people who do not own at Marriott, and especially the ones who do not own DPs, are coming over to the Marriott forum to complain about Ritz Carlton and Marriott? I can see if you are an owner and complaining about Marriott on this forum. But I would not go to the Wyndham forum and complain about them because I do not own there. I would go there if I were considering buying there. More than likely, Vistana owners will not lose anything with the integration. There is a lot of fear right now for Vistana owners and I get that because I am a Vistana owner too. But let’s wait and see. No use freaking out in advance.



Well, it is the Timeshare Users Group BBS, not the Timeshare Owners Group BBS.  I’m not complaining about anything in any case; I believe you’re responding to other postings — but I would welcome postings that provide perspectives from non-owner users in any of the fora about systems I do own in as they can give a sense of potentially valid comparisons between resorts.

Edit to add:  I do believe that postings like this one by a non-Wyndham owner about what they believed at the time was a Wyndham timeshare in the Wyndham forum are perfectly acceptable:









						Magic Village Views in Orlando
					

We are staying at Magic Village Views in Orlando. We got it as an exchange through ThirdHome from an owner so I assume this is a timeshare. It is managed by Wyndham and part of their Trademark Collection. I am wondering if it’s a timeshare because if it is, then I will post a review on TUG.




					tugbbs.com


----------



## Eric B

One other thought — I hope there isn’t a push to combine the Vistana and Marriott fora.  They are distinct enough to support the separation IMHO.


----------



## SueDonJ

CPNY said:


> How you do the beach and the ocean is different than others. As I have point out in the post you quoted. If you go back and read it you’ll see what I said about the Ritz. I’ll say it again. “No one is denying the quality of the Ritz being impeccable, that’s a fact we can all agree on”. Clearly you are just being a bit defensive as well.
> 
> I think this thread should only be in the vistana forum and both have the same title so I am free to comment on any thread I feel. I am a paid tug member after all. *I never understood the whole “you can’t post in a Marriott forum if you don’t own Marriott*” it’s very elitist and makes you sounds privileged. But since we are discussing MARRIOTT OWNED RESORTS, I can comment and post regarding what own. Again, it is a high point value when I can get 4 weeks at the WSJ but only end up with 1 at MFC or the Ritz.


*As the Marriott moderator* I just want to make the point clear that what is bolded above has NEVER been a TUG Rule. Some people might think it should be, but it's not. Sure, with respect to the Marriott/Vistana integration there will come a day when separation between the two TUG forums is more clear but that time isn't now. We encourage everyone to join in the fun and help us all get through this state of confusion.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I am still scratching my head and wondering why people who do not own at Marriott, and especially the ones who do not own DPs, are coming over to the Marriott forum to complain about Ritz Carlton and Marriott? I can see if you are an owner and complaining about Marriott on this forum. But I would not go to the Wyndham forum and complain about them because I do not own there. I would go there if I were considering buying there. More than likely, Vistana owners will not lose anything with the integration. There is a lot of fear right now for Vistana owners and I get that because I am a Vistana owner too. But let’s wait and see. No use freaking out in advance.


LOL you should have just tagged me in this post. Im sorry you think I’m complaining about the Ritz because I’m not at all, nor am i complaining about Marriott or the DC here. I’m just talking about the point value THAT MY OWNERSHIPS IN VISTANA WILL GET ME.

I’m just shocked you’re surprised by this statement When these posts have the same title talking about the same exact topic in two different forums. Two forums of let’s face it, the same company, it was an Acquisition remember? I get it that Marriott owners don’t like anyone posting in the Marriott forum if they don’t own the specific product Marriott sold so Maybe you should change the title of this thread and add in NO NON MARRIOTT OWNERS ALLOWED


----------



## SueDonJ

Eric B said:


> One other thought — I hope there isn’t a push to combine the Vistana and Marriott fora.  They are distinct enough to support the separation IMHO.


We're thinking alike, typing at the same time. The possibility of combining the two TUG forums hasn't ever been entertained.

And, we're going to please stop now with the comments about who should be posting where and what should be posted. As always, if you think something is in violation of TUG Rules then hit the "Report" button and the mods/Admin will review. Thanks!


----------



## DanCali

TravelTime said:


> The beach at WSJ and MFC are not good beaches. Not sure why people keep acting like WSJ has a good beach. The beach at WSJ is worse than the one at Ritz Carlton St Thomas. You can drive to the good beaches in WSJ and lug your stuff around. If you really are a beach lover, then you would not stay at WSJ. You would want to stay directly on a great beach and be able to walk out.
> 
> You keep taking about the high point value of the Ritz. I already told you that the point value in the summer is about the same as MFC. I do not mind the comparisons but I would appreciate if people would be accurate when making comparisons about something objective like point values.
> 
> When we stay at the Ritz St Thomas in June, I am planning to take many sailing excursions directly from the Ritz on their private sailboat and sail around St John. To me, that is the way to go for ocean lovers. I am an ocean lover and prefer sailing over sitting on a beach. I like to be on the ocean or sitting in a beautiful resort looking at the ocean more than sitting in the sun on the beach. I need a lot of shade so even an umbrella does not cut it in the sun on the beach. I like to rent a cabana or at least the chairs that roll over you. Those block the sun well.
> 
> I think you should take this discussion over to the Vistana forum. Unless you own DPs with MVC and have stayed at the Ritz Carlton, I am not sure why you would making such strong comments on something you do not understand.




Picture of the beach at the WSJ resort is below so people can make up their own mind... I think it's a very nice beach but, that said, St. John has such amazing beaches that it's more fun for us to get in the Jeep with our stuff and drive for 20-45 minutes to a different beach each day. WSJ is a great resort IMO - we don't own there (MFs too high for my taste) but exchanged and rented multiple times, and for me it's literally the crown jewel in the Vistana portfolio.

We haven't been at the Ritz on ST but stayed at MFC multiple times for 1-2 night stays on the way back from St. John. The views there are amazing, and it's a great resort too (although always felt crowded). But to us St. John is greatly preferred as a destination over St. Thomas so issue is resolved there.


----------



## Eric B

SueDonJ said:


> Words, I can do but you can keep your filthy math!





SueDonJ said:


> We're thinking alike, typing at the same time. The possibility of combining the two TUG forums hasn't ever been entertained.



Dang!  I was hoping others would pick up the pluralization as “fora”.  Guess that’s kind of like math….


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> For some people, this is true. If spending a lot on timeshares is a head scratcher, why do you own Harborside? Isn’t that the most expensive resort within the VSN? Also it is a hard one to unload even for a dollar. I looked at buying over there but it made no sense even for a dollar.



I don’t! 

“Resorts owned” as in I no longer own it. I was successful in giving it away. I guess there is that age old TUG mantra, buy where you want to go that had me own it. When it was purchased, it wasn’t what it was today, the MF were extremely low. Once the fees skyrocketed and I learned about TS ownership here, I’d probably still own it not knowing any better. I go to the HRA every year so if for some reason getting in is impossible via the VSN then yes I can choose to own again or just rent a unit for the cost of MF or below. It made sense to own there at one time, but that has proven to not be the case any longer.


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## Steve Fatula

CPNY said:


> I guess there is that age old TUG mantra, buy where you want to go that had me own it.



I guess timeshare salesmen should love me then. Since I want to go everywhere....

So, is WSJ the crown jewel of Vistana? If so, would probably add it to my list of places to go one day. If not, what is the crown jewel?


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## CalGalTraveler

I blame the developers. These integration changes are causing considerable anxiety because the developers (I am looking at you MVC and HGV) are not sharing all details of their new programs transparently.

The choice to participate is not one size fits all. Participating and how you use will boil down to looking at your current portfolio economics - have you already invested in elite? multiple properties? DP? and comparing the buy-in cost relative to your other options which include do nothing and use what you own, trade in II/RCI or double down with another resale. Every portfolio and owner will be different i.e. did you buy resale?  your travel location preferences, do you need more points?  For some who are already heavily invested, it makes sense to continue. For others who may just own one property, are not elite and don't trade it may not.

All the systems (MVC, Vistana, Hyatt, HGV) offer great resorts so arguing about it is moot. It is a question of what fits your travel preference, existing portfolio of TS investments and budget.


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## vacationtime1

Steve Fatula said:


> I guess timeshare salesmen should love me then. Since I want to go everywhere....
> 
> So, is WSJ the crown jewel of Vistana? If so, would probably add it to my list of places to go one day. If not, what is the crown jewel?


I think picking Vistana's "crown jewel" is an east coast / west coast thing.

I lot of east coast people love WSJ.  I'm not into 10-12 hours of travel to get to a beach.

I think Westin's Maui resorts (specifically the OF units) are the "crown jewel" on the west coast.

Because you are in Oklahoma, you need to visit both and compare.


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## CalGalTraveler

What is considered the "Crown Jewel" in MVC? Ritz? MOC? Oahu? FWIW Westin Princeville is not bad either.

@TravelTime I will be interested in your observations of St. Thomas (outside of the Ritz compound) when you visit. We visited St John in the 1990's (we rented a home). St. John is one of our favorite places on earth. The warm clear water, the beaches.  We haven't returned because of the time and cost of getting there from the west coast.

In comparison, we found St Thomas and St Croix suffered from high crime and poverty at the time. We decided we didn't want to return to those islands. Perhaps it has changed since we visited?


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## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> I blame the developers. These integration changes are causing considerable anxiety because the developers (I am looking at you MVC and HGV) are not sharing all details of their new programs transparently.
> 
> The choice to participate is not one size fits all. Participating and how you use will boil down to looking at your current portfolio economics - have you already invested in elite? multiple properties? DP? and comparing the buy-in cost relative to your other options which include do nothing and use what you own, trade in II/RCI or double down with another resale. Every portfolio and owner will be different i.e. did you by resale?  your travel location preferences.  For some who are already heavily invested, it makes sense to continue. For others who may just own one property, are not elite and don't trade it may not.
> 
> All the systems (MVC, Vistana, Hyatt, HGV) offer great resorts so arguing about it is moot. It is a question of what fits your travel preference, existing portfolio of TS investments and budget.


For developers it is about making it a one size fits all. It never matters about your personal circumstances, the product is always right for you. By putting details out there, it will show that the product really isn't good for most people.


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## CPNY

Steve Fatula said:


> I guess timeshare salesmen should love me then. Since I want to go everywhere....
> 
> So, is WSJ the crown jewel of Vistana? If so, would probably add it to my list of places to go one day. If not, what is the crown jewel?


So I’ve never been to Hawaii but if I had to put the crown jewel on a vistana resort to visit I’d assume it would be the an OF room at WKORV based on the demand.  WSJ isn’t the greatest resort. What makes it desirable is the island of St John imo. Compared to the built up islands everyone is used To, it has that unspoiled natural thing going for it. Along with some of the best beaches I’ve seen in the Caribbean. I think the reason why people are always talking about WSJ isn’t because they think it’s the crown jewel, I think it’s because it’s hard to get reservations in the VSN. Most owners go back year after year and then there are owners who can’t even get in due to availability issues. I’ve been Lucky enough to get reservations. I feel like everyone’s crown jewel will be different. My crown jewel is the crummy Harborside. I like the Atlantis enough to keep going back, and it’s super close with multiple direct flights.

there is no resort in Vistana that can compare to a Ritz Carlton, the service and experience is unparalleled. Of course I’m basing this on my experience of visiting timeshare resorts in the Marriott/Vistana eco system and my experiences of staying at Ritz Carlton hotels. I’d have to assume that the level of service you get at a Ritz Carlton hotel is going to be the same at the RC TS.

if you’re in the middle of the country you have a true advantage of experiencing everything so it’s no wonder why you want to go everywhere! Lucky you. I’m on the east coast so I gravitate toward the Caribbean and Florida for the most part.


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## CalGalTraveler

Westin Riverside (Avon, CO) is quite nice too. We have enjoyed stays at MKO (my DH prefers it to Waikiki) and Grand Chateau (not a crown jewel but good quality with a view of the strip, IMHO we prefer Elara across the street for Vegas because it has a Vegas vibe (vs. standard TS decor), direct access to Miracle Mile, and larger pool with private owners deck and hot tub. But GC is certainly fine.)


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## CPNY

CalGalTraveler said:


> Westin Riverside (Avon, CO) is quite nice too. We have enjoyed stays at MKO (my DH prefers it to Waikiki), The rooms are quite spacious and kitchen well equipped for a group of 8.


I’d love to do a ski week in WRF one day


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## Steve Fatula

CPNY said:


> if you’re in the middle of the country you have a true advantage of experiencing everything so it’s no wonder why you want to go everywhere! Lucky you. I’m on the east coast so I gravitate toward the Caribbean and Florida for the most part.



Hah, country, continent is no obstacle. Been to Australia/Asia 4 times now. Can't be any further (or much) and will be going back for more as Australia is so large, there's at least 3 other areas I want to visit there. So, it doesn't matter to me where it is. There is no luck involved, I chose to live where I do. Not everyone has that choice so do feel somewhat fortunate. Still, even if I lived on coasts, wouldn't matter much to me as far as where I go.

Actually, I'd love to get into Key West.  And I wouldn't mind that "crummy" Harborside. I was hoping for Key West in December actually, but program integration might be too late for that this year as far as inventory. Yes, there are other ways to get there, rent, pay, etc., but I don't like doing those.

As far a crown jewel in Marriott, I don't think there is any. If you asked 10 people you might get at least 5 answers. Many west coast folks always like Maui, I am meh on the island myself. But that is what makes travel so nice, there is something for everyone even people with stranger (er unique) tastes.


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## CalGalTraveler

@CPNY FWIW we traded Bonvoy points to get in Riverside hotel side. Not SOs but the pools and spa are shared. Our studio had a corner view and a fireplace. It has direct gondola access and ski valet to BC.  I expect the villas are even nicer. I expect that like WSJ and Westin Kaanapali OF people use or rent out what they own so availability in SOs or DP is like finding a unicorn.


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## dioxide45

Steve Fatula said:


> Actually, I'd love to get into Key West. And I wouldn't mind that "crummy" Harborside. I was hoping for Key West in December actually, but program integration might be too late for that this year as far as inventory. Yes, there are other ways to get there, rent, pay, etc., but I don't like doing those.


Not sure what program integration will get you into Key West. Vistana doesn't have a property there. There is a Key West phase of Sheraton Vistana Villages, but that is in Orlando. The Welk/Hyatt intgration may help one get into Key West in the future if they currently only own Welk.


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## Eric B

Steve Fatula said:


> Actually, I'd love to get into Key West. And I wouldn't mind that "crummy" Harborside. I was hoping for Key West in December actually, but program integration might be too late for that this year as far as inventory.



Don't forget that the Key West inventory in Vistana isn't in Key West - instead it's the name of a phase at Sheraton Vistana Villages in Orlando.


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## Steve Fatula

dioxide45 said:


> Not sure what program integration will get you into Key West. Vistana doesn't have a property there. There is a Key West phase of Sheraton Vistana Villages, but that is in Orlando. The Welk/Hyatt intgration may help one get into Key West in the future if they currently only own Welk.



Hah, though there was, when I look at your signature, knowing little to nothing about Vistana, I see SVV - Key West, and assumed there was one in Key West! So much for that thought.


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## SueDonJ

I have a question for anyone who's already been or will be going to a sales presentation where this soft launch is happening, either at a Marriott or Vistana sales office - which is why I'm duplicate-posting this in both forums - 

If you were to choose to purchase now, prior to the official launch, are you able to immediately elect Destination Club Points from any owned intervals which are being enrolled* simultaneously with your new purchase?

*"Enrolled" meaning that your existing previously-owned intervals will be eligible for annual exchange to DC Points.

I'm trying to think through what the official launch might look like as far as availability metrics on the day of the official launch, specifically if Vistana intervals that are newly-eligible for DC Points election will be immediately available to all DC Exchange Company members on the launch date, due to DC Points elections having been processed immediately with the simultaneous purchase.


----------



## DanCali

vacationtime1 said:


> I think picking Vistana's "crown jewel" is an east coast / west coast thing.
> 
> I lot of east coast people love WSJ.  I'm not into 10-12 hours of travel to get to a beach.
> 
> I think Westin's Maui resorts (specifically the OF units) are the "crown jewel" on the west coast.



This is very true. We rarely get to Hawaii from Florida because it's two 6 hour flights + a 6 hour time difference in the summer. USVI is 90 minutes and Nassau (Atlantis) is 30 minutes... We have not stayed in the OF units at WKORV, but have been there in the past and love it too.




CPNY said:


> So I’ve never been to Hawaii but if I had to put the crown jewel on a vistana resort to visit I’d assume it would be the an OF room at WKORV based on the demand.  WSJ isn’t the greatest resort. What makes it desirable is the island of St John imo. Compared to the built up islands everyone is used To, it has that unspoiled natural thing going for it. Along with some of the best beaches I’ve seen in the Caribbean. I think the reason why people are always talking about WSJ isn’t because they think it’s the crown jewel, I think it’s because it’s hard to get reservations in the VSN.



Reservations at WSJ have been (somewhat) easier to get since they changed the point chart for that resort. 176,700 Staroptions for a 2BR in peak season (vs. 148,100 originally) does price out quite a few owners and also maybe entices existing owners to exchange instead of use or rent their weeks, thus making more inventory available.

I wouldn't say Westin St. John "isn't the greatest resort" - it doesn't fall below the standards of the other Westins, IMO - but probably doesn't outshine others either. If anything at Vistana isn't "the greatest resort" it's probably Harborside. We do own 2 weeks there and like it as a destination with everything that comes along with it (Atlantis access, condo with full kitchen etc) but the units themselves are below even Sheraton standards. Despite occasional refurbishments, it just feels older and less well-kept inside the units than other resorts.


----------



## CPNY

DanCali said:


> This is very true. We rarely get to Hawaii from Florida because it's two 6 hour flights + a 6 hour time difference in the summer. USVI is 90 minutes and Nassau (Atlantis) is 30 minutes... We have not stayed in the OF units at WKORV, but have been there in the past and love it too.
> 
> If anything at Vistana isn't "the greatest resort" it's probably Harborside. We do own 2 weeks there and like it as a destination with everything that comes along with it (Atlantis access, condo with full kitchen etc) but the units themselves are below even Sheraton standards. Despite occasional refurbishments, it just feels older and less well-kept inside the units than other resorts.



Agreed, which is why it called it “crummy”. From a villa/resort standard, it is def lackluster. It was built with being at the Atlantis in mind. I guess that’s why they named it Harborside Resort at Atlantis. The draw is being at Atlantis. I can’t figure out for the life of me how the maint fees are so high yet they rooms are still the same old rooms (minus a few soft refurbishments).


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## Steve Fatula

I'd go there even if the rooms are subpar. Want to get back to the Bahamas and Would love to be at the Atlantis really. If I could ever get in being a Marriott owner.


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## CPNY

Steve Fatula said:


> I'd go there even if the rooms are subpar. Want to get back to the Bahamas and Would love to be at the Atlantis really. If I could ever get in being a Marriott owner.


Right… that was my whole argument lol. I like going to the Atlantis. While the rooms are subpar, my SO get me quite a few of Them. The rooms are the rooms, they aren’t the highest end furnishings but I feel like it does the job. So many dining options at Atlantis that not having a full range in the kitchen isn’t a big miss. I think if you get a good room with a great view like I get, you’d enjoy it. I really enjoy a nice bottle of wine after a day at the beach while on the balcony waiting the yachts sail by.


----------



## SandyPGravel

CPNY said:


> Right… that was my whole argument lol. I like going to the Atlantis. While the rooms are subpar, my SO get me quite a few of Them. The rooms are the rooms, they aren’t the highest end furnishings but I feel like it does the job. So many dining options at Atlantis that not having a full range in the kitchen isn’t a big miss. I think if you get a good room with a great view like I get, you’d enjoy it. I really enjoy a nice bottle of wine after a day at the beach while on the balcony waiting the yachts sail by.


I agree HRA isn't up to par. Even SVV is better. But, we've been there 5 times, (our first trip we got married on the beach) and are returning this November for 9 days over Thanksgiving week for the basketball tournament. 

If Marriott does take over I hope the bedding will get an upgrade. It would make the lackluster rooms so much more palatable if grills were available. I know, they want everyone in the restaurants. 

Plus, beyond Atlantis, the views are spectacular, the SCUBA diving is amazing, and the people are incredibly kind.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk


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## CPNY

SandyPGravel said:


> I agree HRA isn't up to par. Even SVV is better. But, we've been there 5 times, (our first trip we got married on the beach) and are returning this November for 9 days over Thanksgiving week for the basketball tournament.
> 
> If Marriott does take over I hope the bedding will get an upgrade. It would make the lackluster rooms so much more palatable if grills were available. I know, they want everyone in the restaurants.
> 
> Plus, beyond Atlantis, the views are spectacular, the SCUBA diving is amazing, and the people are incredibly kind.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk


All of the beds were just replaced 3 years ago. They were so firm when they were put in, I couldn’t sleep! I wish grills would be added but it won’t ever happen. If they did they would be charcoal grills but even then I highly doubt it will ever happen. I don’t think the Atlantis wants people cooking meals in their room. They have a lot of restaurants and they need people to sell overpriced subpar food to. It’s a shame because the food at baha mar is so much better.

I wish they would actually completely renovate the showers. They old tile still has that ugly blue and green scheme that was put in 25 years ago. Most of the upgrade money went into soft refurbishment, new roofs on some of the buildings, and upgraded heat exchange water heaters. There was nothing worse when the hot water ran out at around 6PM because everyone was showering in the buildings. Compared to other Marriott resorts, the Harborside is really lackluster, but, the Atlantis and paradise island is a huge draw. Also, the HRA pool isn’t so bad either. It’s clean, quiet, and pretty large. While there are minuses there are plenty of pluses for the Harborside.

the real interesting part is how this will fall into the combined program. Why the full year delay? To my knowledge Marriott owns a lot of inventory, I’m not sure why they couldn’t just dump it into The DC exchange. Actually let me rephrase, no one know who’s owns the unsold foreclosed inventory at Harborside. Is it Brookfield? MVW? The HOA?


----------



## catharsis

SueDonJ said:


> I have a question for anyone who's already been or will be going to a sales presentation where this soft launch is happening, either at a Marriott or Vistana sales office - which is why I'm duplicate-posting this in both forums -
> 
> If you were to choose to purchase now, prior to the official launch, are you able to immediately elect Destination Club Points from any owned intervals which are being enrolled* simultaneously with your new purchase?
> 
> *"Enrolled" meaning that your existing previously-owned intervals will be eligible for annual exchange to DC Points.
> 
> I'm trying to think through what the official launch might look like as far as availability metrics on the day of the official launch, specifically if Vistana intervals that are newly-eligible for DC Points election will be immediately available to all DC Exchange Company members on the launch date, due to DC Points elections having been processed immediately with the simultaneous purchase.


No, I can confirm that does not happen.

As someone who took the chance to enrol a resale SMV week with a (relatively compared to Marriott) small Westin Flex purchase since the soft launch, our newly 'authorised' weeks are eligible to enrol, but the only real change we have seen is the SO availability, nothing at all about MVC DC points.

We have not received anything like the MVC enrolment document set one receives when enrolling a legacy Marriott week in the DC either.


----------



## dougp26364

Opps


----------



## dansimms

kds4 said:


> At our last owner update (earlier this month) we were told that owners can/will continue to be grand-fathered (but only one level). If you want the higher benefits of a prospective level above CC, perhaps buying just what you need to get to Chairman Club now without being grandfathered (before the new level above CC is introduced - which we have heard from multiple sources over the past year is coming) is the way to go. If you are Chairman's Club based on actual ownership, you could set yourself up to be grandfathered to the next higher level when/if it is rolled out. We were grand-fathered CC at one time, but bought 1,500 resale points (and paid the fees) to get there on our own a few years back for just this reason ...


I did the same thing.  I added 1750 DPs to take us over the 15000 to 15050 and will have them added for the 2024 year, to keep my maintenance fee lower for 2023.  I choose 42,500 Bonvoy Points to attend, applied for the Amex Card with the 100,000 Bonvoy Point Bonus and $300 annual account credit / 50,000 Bonvoy annual bonus certificate for the down payment which is part of 15 month no interest promo for new accounts.  I will Finance with Marriott at 13.99% for 18 months to earn an extra 1750 DP bonus on top of the double bonus for buying now, 3500 DPs.  Since there is no prepayment penalty on the loan, I will make a large pay down payment on it right away, but not wipe it out until after 18 months . Their funny math says all this lowered my blended cost down to about $7.13 per point .  That is based on the 5250 total bonus DPs being valued at $2 per point , but I told them that I know I could just rent those points at leas then 75 cents each .In the back of my mind, I had wanted to consider getting my point balance above 15000 just in case more Chairman perks were coming at any time in the next few years, so we decided to do it .  All in all, with the total Bonvoy add on of about 200,000 we felt buying from the developer was within reason in the manner that we did it.  We also got $2000 off because we stayed at a different Marriott Hotel the week earlier (On 2, 35000 Annual vouchers earned from Chase Marriott Card). You get the $2000 off just by having a stay at any cost prior to your tour if it was within 7 days .


----------



## jwalk03

CPNY said:


> Agreed, which is why it called it “crummy”. From a villa/resort standard, it is def lackluster. It was built with being at the Atlantis in mind. I guess that’s why they named it Harborside Resort at Atlantis. The draw is being at Atlantis. I can’t figure out for the life of me how the maint fees are so high yet they rooms are still the same old rooms (minus a few soft refurbishments).



I would assume part of the high MFs are some kind of annual payments to Atlantis for access right?  I'm sure they are not providing it for nothing!


----------



## jwalk03

Steve Fatula said:


> I guess timeshare salesmen should love me then. Since I want to go everywhere....
> 
> So, is WSJ the crown jewel of Vistana? If so, would probably add it to my list of places to go one day. If not, what is the crown jewel?



If you go by the TUG ratings- its a tie between Westin Kierland & Westin Princeville- both have a 9.24 TUG Review rating.  The top rated Marriott is Phuket Beach Club at 9.58.


----------



## VacationForever

@Steve Fatula My absolute favorite Westin property is Westin Lagunamar in Cancun.  We have been there 3 times but no longer feel safe to travel to Mexico anymore. Double level huge infinity pools in front of the lovely Carribean water and white sandy beach.  Restaurant service in the hotel zone area was impeccable and warm.  A distant second is Westin Kierland.  The property is beautiful and well maintained.  It is next to Kierland Commons and Scottsdale Quarters where there are many fine restaurants and shops.

We have been to Princeville and Westin Kaanapali and other than being in Hawaii, there is not much that we like about them.  Princeville is up on the bluff and most rooms have no view.  Even the ones with ocean view, are so-so because the ocean is far away.  The grounds are beautiful and remind us of Marriott's Ko Olina. Service was alright at Princeville and we do like Kauai.  Service at Westin Kanaapali was horrid. Their valet also damaged our rental car and we wasted a significant part of 5 days hanging around the room while we waited for a supervisor to acknowledge the issue and take responsibility.  I posted a review of it on Tug.  Can't pay us enough to return.


----------



## CPNY

jwalk03 said:


> I would assume part of the high MFs are some kind of annual payments to Atlantis for access right?  I'm sure they are not providing it for nothing!


I spoke to a member of the HOA and when I asked why it had the highest fees in the network, he responded very condescendingly with “it costs a lot of money to operate a water park”. To which I replied “there is an Atlantis facilities fee that we pay for access to the grounds, I didn’t know we pay for the operation of the water park. If we are paying to maintain and operate the grounds of Atlantis, why do we then have to pay an access fee? Furthermore, since we are paying to maintain and operate, is the HOA taking part of any profits of Atlantis?” The Atlantis facilities fee isn’t the reason that the fees are very expensive.


----------



## kds4

dansimms said:


> I did the same thing.  I added 1750 DPs to take us over the 15000 to 15050 and will have them added for the 2024 year, to keep my maintenance fee lower for 2023.  I choose 42,500 Bonvoy Points to attend, applied for the Amex Card with the 100,000 Bonvoy Point Bonus and $300 annual account credit / 50,000 Bonvoy annual bonus certificate for the down payment which is part of 15 month no interest promo for new accounts.  I will Finance with Marriott at 13.99% for 18 months to earn an extra 1750 DP bonus on top of the double bonus for buying now, 3500 DPs.  Since there is no prepayment penalty on the loan, I will make a large pay down payment on it right away, but not wipe it out until after 18 months . Their funny math says all this lowered my blended cost down to about $7.13 per point .  That is based on the 5250 total bonus DPs being valued at $2 per point , but I told them that I know I could just rent those points at leas then 75 cents each .In the back of my mind, I had wanted to consider getting my point balance above 15000 just in case more Chairman perks were coming at any time in the next few years, so we decided to do it .  All in all, with the total Bonvoy add on of about 200,000 we felt buying from the developer was within reason in the manner that we did it.  We also got $2000 off because we stayed at a different Marriott Hotel the week earlier (On 2, 35000 Annual vouchers earned from Chase Marriott Card). You get the $2000 off just by having a stay at any cost prior to your tour if it was within 7 days .



Glad you found an approach that works for you and gets you what you want.


----------



## JIMinNC

SueDonJ said:


> I agree that there is no need for MVW to consolidate all of the inventory under its umbrella to the DC Trust, because the separate and distinct DC Exchange Company serves perfectly as the conduit through which any and all inventory can be manipulated by MVW. There is nothing to say that they couldn't continue to sell MVW- and Vistana-branded intervals exactly the way they're being sold today, keeping the Vistana (and any other timeshare company) integration to only the DC Exchange Company.
> 
> The thing, though, is that during investor calls while talking about the integration they have repeatedly referenced a single points product. What remains to be seen is whether that will happen in the form of actual DC Trust conveyances of Vistana intervals or via another layer of integration combining DC Points with Flex (or any other Vistana points.)



I agree that if we believe MVW's management that their end point is a single points product, they will either have to begin conveying Westin/Sheraton intervals to the DC Trust or create a new trust(s) for the Westin/Sheraton intervals that are monetized in DC points rather than FlexOptions. At some point, one would think that to create a single product to sell, they must stop conveying intervals to trusts that are monetized in FlexOptions. I don't know anything about the legalities of these trusts, so I have no idea whether they can merge everything under one DC trust or will need to have multiple trusts that are all monetized in DC Points, but it would seem that their goal of a single points product must, by definition, signal the eventual demise of the FlexTrusts that are monetized in a dead-end product - i.e. FlexOptions.


----------



## dansimms

JIMinNC said:


> I agree that if we believe MVW's management that their end point is a single points product, they will either have to begin conveying Westin/Sheraton intervals to the DC Trust or create a new trust(s) for the Westin/Sheraton intervals that are monetized in DC points rather than FlexOptions. At some point, one would think that to create a single product to sell, they must stop conveying intervals to trusts that are monetized in FlexOptions. I don't know anything about the legalities of these trusts, so I have no idea whether they can merge everything under one DC trust or will need to have multiple trusts that are all monetized in DC Points, but it would seem that their goal of a single points product must, by definition, signal the eventual demise of the FlexTrusts that are monetized in a dead-end product - i.e. FlexOptions.


I would think any new property moving forward now would have a lot less legal baggage and could quickly be a part of the new universally accessed point product.


----------



## jwalk03

dansimms said:


> I would think any new property moving forward now would have a lot less legal baggage and could quickly be a part of the new universally accessed point product.



When was the last time Vistana added a new property?  I assume you are correct, but I wonder if we will ever see another new Vistana property.  New timeshare properties don't seem to be a priority these days and I would think any they add would likely be in the correct Marriott Vacation Club product vs the Sheraton or Westin brands?


----------



## dansimms

jwalk03 said:


> When was the last time Vistana added a new property?  I assume you are correct, but I wonder if we will ever see another new Vistana property.  New timeshare properties don't seem to be a priority these days and I would think any they add would likely be in the correct Marriott Vacation Club product vs the Sheraton or Westin brands?


It doesn’t matter at this point in my opinion. Let’s say a Pulse location is added  in Charleston , Nashville or Chicago.  It’s one bigger happy family now and would fall into this new universal bucket in my opinion.


----------



## dioxide45

jwalk03 said:


> When was the last time Vistana added a new property?  I assume you are correct, but I wonder if we will ever see another new Vistana property.  New timeshare properties don't seem to be a priority these days and I would think any they add would likely be in the correct Marriott Vacation Club product vs the Sheraton or Westin brands?


The last new Vistana property was the Sheraton Kauai. Pretty much a hotel conversion. It looks like all of the inventory from there went into Sheraton Flex trust. Before that it was The Westin Los Cabos. Vistana still owns the hotel at The Westin Cancun and one in Puerto Vallarta. Westin Aventuras owners can book The Westin Cancun at 12 months using HomeOptions, it becomes available to everyone else at 8 months. That said, it is still not technically in Westin Aventuras. Only The Westin Lagunamar and The Westin Los Cabos are in Aventuras. I doubt they will ever convert Puerto Vallarta to timeshare. Perhaps they will find a buyer to take on that property and have it managed by Marriott International.


----------



## dioxide45

dansimms said:


> It doesn’t matter at this point in my opinion. Let’s say a Pulse location is added  in Charleston , Nashville or Chicago.  It’s one bigger happy family now and would fall into this new universal bucket in my opinion.


They will simply add any new properties to the DC Trust as they did with all the previous new MVC properties such as South Beach, Mayflower, San Diego, San Francisco and perhaps some others I missed. They will sell them as DC points. It really isn't a universal bucket because Westin and Sheraton Flex along with Westin Aventuras will continue to just co-exist.


----------



## dansimms

Why 


dioxide45 said:


> They will simply add any new properties to the DC Trust as they did with all the previous new MVC properties such as South Beach, Mayflower, San Diego, San Francisco and perhaps some others I missed. They will sell them as DC points. It really isn't a universal bucket because Westin and Sheraton Flex along with Westin Aventuras will continue to just co-exist.
> [/QUOTE
> Why wouldn’t they brand a new location in a general way that could be tied to all the sub- brands.  That is how I would like to see it.


----------



## Dean

dansimms said:


> Why


I would assume they want to move the product toward MVC points and therefore anything new would be expected to be in the MVC trust.  Ultimately I'm sure they'd like integrate all products into that bucket as much as legally possible but monetizing the move along the way as well.


----------



## dioxide45

dansimms said:


> Why wouldn’t they brand a new location in a general way that could be tied to all the sub- brands. That is how I would like to see it.


It has been said that Vistana will stop selling Flex products in the near future and move toward selling DC points. It was also explained a while ago that the agreement between Vistana and Marriott International did not allow for new resorts to be built or added beyond the resorts already in the network or that were planned (Sheraton Kauai, Puerto Vallarta). The agreement between Marriott Vacation Club and Marriott International did permit for new resorts to license the Marriott name. The way all the sub brands come together is through the MVC Exchange Company, by having that it doesn't really matter where the inventory actually goes. In fact they are selling Costa Rica as weeks and if you want to use DC points it is facilitated through VC Exchange Company.

All of that said, I doubt we will ever see a new Sheraton or Westin property built (with the possible exception of a Sheraton in Puerto Vallarta). Any new resorts will likely all be Marriott Vacation Club.


----------



## jabberwocky

JIMinNC said:


> I agree that if we believe MVW's management that their end point is a single points product, they will either have to begin conveying Westin/Sheraton intervals to the DC Trust or create a new trust(s) for the Westin/Sheraton intervals that are monetized in DC points rather than FlexOptions. At some point, one would think that to create a single product to sell, they must stop conveying intervals to trusts that are monetized in FlexOptions. I don't know anything about the legalities of these trusts, so I have no idea whether they can merge everything under one DC trust or will need to have multiple trusts that are all monetized in DC Points, but it would seem that their goal of a single points product must, by definition, signal the eventual demise of the FlexTrusts that are monetized in a dead-end product - i.e. FlexOptions.


I'm wondering if a future sales pitch to Flex owners will be to trade their Flex contract for DC points.  I think this would be an attractive alternative.  MVC could then legally move an equivalent amount of deeds out of the Flex trust into the DC trust.  IIRC, the Flex trust terms allow Vistana to add/remove properties as they see fit (of course ensuring there are enough weeks to cover the issued points).  One would think this would be pretty simple and a good driver of revenue.


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> I'm wondering if a future sales pitch to Flex owners will be to trade their Flex contract for DC points.  I think this would be an attractive alternative.  MVC could then legally move an equivalent amount of deeds out of the Flex trust into the DC trust.  IIRC, the Flex trust terms allow Vistana to add/remove properties as they see fit (of course ensuring there are enough weeks to cover the issued points).  One would think this would be pretty simple and a good driver of revenue.


If MVC doesn't already have a step-by-step long-term strategy mapped out pertaining to this consolidation, they should hire some TUGers to create them because you all come up with some great visions here!


----------



## jabberwocky

kozykritter said:


> If MVC doesn't already have a step-by-step long-term strategy mapped out pertaining to this consolidation, they should hire some TUGers to create them because you all come up with some great visions here!


Lol. I’m available for a reasonable fee!


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> If MVC doesn't already have a step-by-step long-term strategy mapped out pertaining to this consolidation, they should hire some TUGers to create them because you all come up with some great visions here!


Given all the things that they seem to have overlooked with this soft rollout, they have a lot more work to do.


----------



## Dean

I was talking to my contact yesterday.  He says booking starts 1 June for all MVC members with points but he wasn't completely sure what the lead time would have to be.  He'd previously said that for 2023 and beyond but that didn't come up yesterday.  He is being told that Hyatt is being actively worked on but there has been no movement in integrating Hyatt.  The 2 properties for Vistana/Westin that are not being included now are expected to be by 2024.  All who have status with Vistana/Westin will have status with MVC but he didn't have the specific on how that would look like exactly.  He could not provide actual points requirements but said it should be comparable to what the MVC options are in general.  I did ask about changes with the MVC Owner Benefit levels and he said he hasn't heard anything and feels it's just sales speak.  He did say he was surprised MVC had not tried to monetize the integration for the Vistana/Westin owners as am I.  So not really much information but good to hear from someone I have trust in.


----------



## kozykritter

Dean said:


> He did say he was surprised MVC had not tried to monetize the integration for the Vistana/Westin owners as am I.


Vistana already has an internal exchange system, pure point ownership products and access to MVC properties through II. The vast majority of its owners are very happy with what they already have and have the standard human aversion to things changing so charging them a fee to access MVC directly could likely be the tipping point for them to say no way, leaving MVC with little Vistana inventory for its members to book.

If they exclude unqualified Vistana resale weeks from being able to enroll in MVC as is being speculated right now, then they have a chance to make $$$ by selling those people ownership to requalify or charging them a significant enrollment fee to access MVC. Also there will be opportunity to sell Vistana owners points once they start using the MVC system and wanting more, and vice versa for MVC owners


----------



## Dean

kozykritter said:


> Vistana already has an internal exchange system, pure point ownership products and access to MVC properties through II. The vast majority of its owners are very happy with what they already have and have the standard human aversion to things changing so charging them a fee to access MVC directly could likely be the tipping point for them to say no way, leaving MVC with little Vistana inventory for its members to book.
> 
> If they exclude unqualified Vistana resale weeks from being able to enroll in MVC as is being speculated right now, then they have a chance to make $$$ by selling those people ownership to requalify or charging them a significant enrollment fee to access MVC. Also there will be opportunity to sell Vistana owners points once they start using the MVC system and wanting more, and vice versa for MVC owners


Sales can always find a way to spin things to make you think you need or want something you don't need.  Realize that few owners are as informed and aware as those on TUG.  It sounds like they are working on an enrollment option but nothing has been formalized as of yet from what I can gather.  Everyone currently has the same options they have had and likely will continue to have (at least for now), they will just have more options now.  However, there may be less inventory and more competition going forward.  The only things that are constant with timeshares is that they change and usually not for the better for a large portion of currently owners.


----------



## jmhpsu93

o2bonn said:


> Here is a pic from the new book …View attachment 51104


Wow - those are really out of whack with SO points charts for that resort.


----------



## rickandcindy23

dansimms said:


> I did the same thing.  I added 1750 DPs to take us over the 15000 to 15050 and will have them added for the 2024 year, to keep my maintenance fee lower for 2023.  I choose 42,500 Bonvoy Points to attend, applied for the Amex Card with the 100,000 Bonvoy Point Bonus and $300 annual account credit / 50,000 Bonvoy annual bonus certificate for the down payment which is part of 15 month no interest promo for new accounts.  I will Finance with Marriott at 13.99% for 18 months to earn an extra 1750 DP bonus on top of the double bonus for buying now, 3500 DPs.  Since there is no prepayment penalty on the loan, I will make a large pay down payment on it right away, but not wipe it out until after 18 months . Their funny math says all this lowered my blended cost down to about $7.13 per point .  That is based on the 5250 total bonus DPs being valued at $2 per point , but I told them that I know I could just rent those points at leas then 75 cents each .In the back of my mind, I had wanted to consider getting my point balance above 15000 just in case more Chairman perks were coming at any time in the next few years, so we decided to do it .  All in all, with the total Bonvoy add on of about 200,000 we felt buying from the developer was within reason in the manner that we did it.  We also got $2000 off because we stayed at a different Marriott Hotel the week earlier (On 2, 35000 Annual vouchers earned from Chase Marriott Card). You get the $2000 off just by having a stay at any cost prior to your tour if it was within 7 days .


Too much math.  You lost me!


----------



## jwalk03

dioxide45 said:


> The last new Vistana property was the Sheraton Kauai. Pretty much a hotel conversion. It looks like all of the inventory from there went into Sheraton Flex trust. Before that it was The Westin Los Cabos. Vistana still owns the hotel at The Westin Cancun and one in Puerto Vallarta. Westin Aventuras owners can book The Westin Cancun at 12 months using HomeOptions, it becomes available to everyone else at 8 months. That said, it is still not technically in Westin Aventuras. Only The Westin Lagunamar and The Westin Los Cabos are in Aventuras. I doubt they will ever convert Puerto Vallarta to timeshare. Perhaps they will find a buyer to take on that property and have it managed by Marriott International.



Whats the hang up on Puerto Vallarta that would stop them from converting it?  I mean why would they want to own a hotel when their core business is timeshare.


----------



## dioxide45

jwalk03 said:


> Whats the hang up on Puerto Vallarta that would stop them from converting it?  I mean why would they want to own a hotel when their core business is timeshare.


THat is a good question. They are probably simply looking at return on investment. Will it make them enough money to convert it to timeshare and sell the points off in Aventuras when in the end they will probably want to stop selling Aventuras in favor of selling DC points instead. Thus why I beleive they are actively trying to market the property to sell as a hotel.


----------



## jwalk03

dioxide45 said:


> THat is a good question. They are probably simply looking at return on investment. Will it make them enough money to convert it to timeshare and sell the points off in Aventuras when in the end they will probably want to stop selling Aventuras in favor of selling DC points instead. Thus why I beleive they are actively trying to market the property to sell as a hotel.



They wouldn't have to put it in Aventuras right?  Could they just convert it and add it directly to the DC as a new resort?


----------



## dansimms

rickandcindy23 said:


> Too much math.  You lost me!


Sorry.   When you can get bonuses like this, buying from the developer can be defended. Although , not necessarily as inexpensive as you can get by buying resale.


----------



## JIMinNC

jwalk03 said:


> They wouldn't have to put it in Aventuras right?  Could they just convert it and add it directly to the DC as a new resort?



As currently structured, the DC is limited to U.S. resorts. International locations in MVC still sell enrolled weeks that can trade in DC Points through the MVC Exchange..


----------



## dioxide45

jwalk03 said:


> They wouldn't have to put it in Aventuras right?  Could they just convert it and add it directly to the DC as a new resort?


The only way they could really sell it as timeshare is to add it to Aventuras or sell it as weeks. They could setup some separate system that mimics Aventuras but based on DC point values instead of Vistana HomeOptions, but no need when they already have Aventuras. I don't really see them ever building this property out. It would be nice to have the additional option, but I suspect it won't happen. MVC for years owned a small plot of land beside Live Aqua in Cancun that they had planned to build a MVC property at. Crash happened and they decided to sell it off. It finally sold a few years ago.


----------



## byeloe

dioxide45 said:


> MVC for years owned a small plot of land beside Live Aqua in Cancun that they had planned to build a MVC property at. Crash happened and they decided to sell it off. It finally sold a few years ago.


I believe that it will be a RIU


----------



## bazzap

JIMinNC said:


> As currently structured, the DC is limited to U.S. resorts. International locations in MVC still sell enrolled weeks that can trade in DC Points through the MVC Exchange..


With the exception of Asia, where MVC only ever sold weeks at Phuket Beach Club (PBC) and stopped that a long time ago.
When they introduced the Asia Pacific (AP) points programme, they conveyed all remaining weeks inventory to this programme and have only sold points since then.
This remains a separate programme to DC, but the two do interwork now.
Those who do own eligible PBC weeks can enrol them in DC.


----------



## jabberwocky

I have a question for those who own post-2010 Marriott resale weeks and have attended sales presentations.

In general, does Marriott ever provide offers to trade in your existing week in exchange for a DP purchase?

From what I have read on TUG, it seems like they are sometimes willing to enroll your existing resale week if you either purchase additional DP or make a developer week purchase (Aruba seems to be a popular choice).  But there is some speculation on the Vistana forum that they may want to take weeks to have people move directly into DP.

I'm skeptical and think while they may have some sort of conversion offer for the Flex programs, they likely don't want to hold too much inventory in the trust and would prefer to just enroll weeks via the selling of more DP.


----------



## VacationForever

jabberwocky said:


> I have a question for those who own post-2010 Marriott resale weeks and have attended sales presentations.
> 
> In general, does Marriott ever provide offers to trade in your existing week in exchange for a DP purchase?
> 
> From what I have read on TUG, it seems like they are sometimes willing to enroll your existing resale week if you either purchase additional DP or make a developer week purchase (Aruba seems to be a popular choice).  But there is some speculation on the Vistana forum that they may want to take weeks to have people move directly into DP.
> 
> I'm skeptical and think while they may have some sort of conversion offer for the Flex programs, they likely don't want to hold too much inventory in the trust and would prefer to just enroll weeks via the selling of more DP.


I have not heard of such offers.


----------



## DanCali

jabberwocky said:


> I have a question for those who own post-2010 Marriott resale weeks and have attended sales presentations.
> 
> In general, does Marriott ever provide offers to trade in your existing week in exchange for a DP purchase?
> 
> From what I have read on TUG, it seems like they are sometimes willing to enroll your existing resale week if you either purchase additional DP or make a developer week purchase (Aruba seems to be a popular choice).  But there is some speculation on the Vistana forum that they may want to take weeks to have people move directly into DP.
> 
> I'm skeptical and think while they may have some sort of conversion offer for the Flex programs, they likely don't want to hold too much inventory in the trust and would prefer to just enroll weeks via the selling of more DP.



Vistana was into those offers, especially with our WKV weeks where they have no ROFR.

We never got an offer like this from Marriott. I think they probably get better deals with ROFR and, as a business strategy, it's better to offer people something they don't have (access to DC points) then offer to take away a deeded week they probably like.


----------



## dioxide45

I have never seen a trade in offer with MVC like we used to see with Vistana. Vistana was heavy into these when selling Sheraton Flex early on. THey soaked up a lot of weeks that may have otherwise made it to resale markets. When Marriott Vacations Worldwide bought ILG, these trade in options didn't last much longer. I get the impression that MVC doesn't like that method to sell new product. Marriott is more about enrolling weeks as part of a purchase. I suspect the same will happen in the future with voluntary resale, mandatory resale and resale flex contracts. The ability to enroll those in the combined program with the purchase of DC trust points.


----------



## Dean

jabberwocky said:


> I have a question for those who own post-2010 Marriott resale weeks and have attended sales presentations.
> 
> In general, does Marriott ever provide offers to trade in your existing week in exchange for a DP purchase?
> 
> From what I have read on TUG, it seems like they are sometimes willing to enroll your existing resale week if you either purchase additional DP or make a developer week purchase (Aruba seems to be a popular choice).  But there is some speculation on the Vistana forum that they may want to take weeks to have people move directly into DP.
> 
> I'm skeptical and think while they may have some sort of conversion offer for the Flex programs, they likely don't want to hold too much inventory in the trust and would prefer to just enroll weeks via the selling of more DP.


I have seen several reports of trade offers and received one myself when I inquired about the others I'd seen.  At the time I was offered a competitive value for the week I was considering (about 2/3 what I paid) and the then discounted price per point for the retail purchase.  For what I had asked about (Aruba OF or event week), the price difference was still too great but was reasonable if I were going to make a retail purchase anyway.


----------



## 2boysmom

We were in HH last weekend and received an offer to credit the equity of our 2 DSVII red weeks towards a purchase of the equivalent number of points (4300) but at the 'new and not yet announced' pp of $19+pp plus they would enroll our 1 post 2010 resale week (oceanfront Surf Watch gold).  The net cost would have been $40K+ and we said no. We were shocked they were trying to float this new point price since it isn't even official.  Would have gotten us to Presidential but we told them we were finished buying anything and wanted Marriott to consider a flat rate to enroll resale weeks as we suspect a lot of owners like us are out there. Willing to pay something but not tens of thousands.


----------



## VacationForever

2boysmom said:


> We were in HH last weekend and received an offer to credit the equity of our 2 DSVII red weeks towards a purchase of the equivalent number of points (4300) but at the 'new and not yet announced' pp of $19+pp plus they would enroll our 1 post 2010 resale week (oceanfront Surf Watch gold).  The net cost would have been $40K+ and we said no. We were shocked they were trying to float this new point price since it isn't even official.  Would have gotten us to Presidential but we told them we were finished buying anything and wanted Marriott to consider a flat rate to enroll resale weeks as we suspect a lot of owners like us are out there. Willing to pay something but not tens of thousands.


Sounds like it wasn't legitimate and a teaser.  How can they sell you points at $19 per point?


----------



## kozykritter

VacationForever said:


> Sounds like it wasn't legitimate and a teaser.  How can they sell you points at $19 per point?


Maybe MVC is following the lead of Hilton in their merger with DRI where they created HGV Max, a level most existing owners have to buy in to with big $$$ to get access to DRI properties as well as any other new properties Hilton brings on board. Perhaps they might roll something out like this for existing MVC owners to get Vistana access... That would be an awful shock!


----------



## CKMason

We are currently at Sheraton Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach and attended a sales presentation for Vistana on April 23. According to the salesperson the locations in Myrtle Beach and in Orlando (both Marriott and Vistana) are engaged in “pre-rollout” sales presentations relating to the rollout of the “blended” system on July 1—or as our salesperson put it “late summer”. In addition to the presentations at Myrtle Beach and Orlando, there are also dog and pony shows for invited owners in other locations, including Washington DC.

Before I go further, you need to know that our situation may not be typical. We are 3-Star Elite with Vistana and Chairman’s Club with Marriott all with developer purchases. (Yes, I know but that is a discussion for another time.). I do not know how Vistana/Marriott will handle resale purchases in this new system.

According to what the salespersons (one from the Vistana side and one from the Marriott side) told us, if you buy into the blended system, both your StarOptions and your Marriott ownership (for us points and weeks) will show up together on both the Vistana dashboard and the Marriott web account. You will be able to move, at no further cost, Vistana points into Destination Points and vice versa. You will be able to make Marriott reservations in the Vistana system and vice-versa. If you have an II account for Marriott and one for Vistana, those will also be merged into one account. The blended system will also move your Vistana points into the Marriott Trust, which will then allow for Vistana StarOptions to be resold to Marriott [Vistana currently does not do buy-backs] and, according to the sales people, will ease inheritance issues, especially if your children don’t want the timeshares [never could get this straight in my mind, except that with Vistana, it appears that the timeshares roll into your estate automatically, but I thought that the executor could always reject them.]

In addition, instead of the various fees that Vistana charges [banking, point conversion to Marriott Bonvoy, II fees for internal (Marriott to Vistana and vice-versa) exchanges, reservation cancellations, guest fees], these will now all be covered by the standard Marriott fee for the appropriate level, The Marriott fee covers both Vistana and Marriott membership, but I suspect it will go up proportionately. In addition, there will be no more housekeeping fees as we now experience with Vistana when the number of uses of points exceeds a certain level.

In the blended system, there is no more Home Resort window for reservations. All Vistana resorts will be able to be booked 12 months out and all Marriott resorts 13 months out, at least for Chairman’s Club level members. I am assuming that to book a Marriott with Vistana StarOptions, one would first have to convert the number needed and then the timeframe would apply.

The process requires one to turn in their current ownership of StarOptions and repurchase at the current StarOption point value. We were given full credit for the dollars we spent on our current ownership plus credit for an Explorer package we had purchased earlier plus credit for the hotels we stayed in on the road getting to Myrtle Beach. [They give up to 10 days credit coming and going; we got a good deal because we stayed on Marriott Bonvoy points on our trip and got credit for full value of the room rate.].

We have 176,700 StarOptions which would be valued at 5,140 Destination Points in the blended system. [34.37 StarOptions to 1 Destination Club Point]. It does appear that there will still be some “skim” in the system from Vistana to Marriott. I did a quick analysis comparing 2-bedroom lockouts in prime time [February/March] for Marriott Desert Springs II [3,775 Destination Club Points] and Westin Mission Hills [148,100 StarOptions] with the result of 39.23 StarOptions points to 1 Destination Club Point]. [Purchase price: 34.37; spend price 39.23]. Even in the blended system, it probably would be better to use StarOptions for Vistana resorts and Destination Club points for Marriott resorts.

The claim is, and I have no idea if it is true, it will be more expensive on the Marriott side to buy into the system. Essentially the current going price for a StarOption is about $.43 per point which should make a Marriott Destination Club point run about $14.72.

That is pretty much my brain dump about what we were told. Of course, there is NO paperwork to undergird the statements made. We are supposed to get it in the coming weeks as the system rolls out for good. Caveat emptor.

I started by posting this on the Vistana board, but thought that Marriott owners might find it interesting also.


----------



## TravelTime

This is interesting, I have a question. You said:

“You will be able to move, at no further cost, Vistana points into Destination Points and vice versa.”

“The process requires one to turn in their current ownership of StarOptions and repurchase at the current StarOption point value.”

So I am a bit confused. Does this mean there is or is not a cost to participate in both systems?


----------



## CKMason

TravelTime said:


> This is interesting, I have a question. You said:
> 
> “You will be able to move, at no further cost, Vistana points into Destination Points and vice versa.”
> 
> “The process requires one to turn in their current ownership of StarOptions and repurchase at the current StarOption point value.”
> 
> So I am a bit confused. Does this mean there is or is not a cost to participate in both systems?


Yes, there is a cost to >>join<< the blended system [the cost of repurchasing the StarOptions] but after joining all most all of the miscellaneous fees that Vistana charges go away, including any charges for converting points in one system to the other. Sorry I wasn't more clear.


----------



## VacationForever

CKMason said:


> We are currently at Sheraton Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach and attended a sales presentation for Vistana on April 23. According to the salesperson the locations in Myrtle Beach and in Orlando (both Marriott and Vistana) are engaged in “pre-rollout” sales presentations relating to the rollout of the “blended” system on July 1—or as our salesperson put it “late summer”. In addition to the presentations at Myrtle Beach and Orlando, there are also dog and pony shows for invited owners in other locations, including Washington DC.
> 
> Before I go further, you need to know that our situation may not be typical. We are 3-Star Elite with Vistana and Chairman’s Club with Marriott all with developer purchases. (Yes, I know but that is a discussion for another time.). I do not know how Vistana/Marriott will handle resale purchases in this new system.
> 
> According to what the salespersons (one from the Vistana side and one from the Marriott side) told us, if you buy into the blended system, both your StarOptions and your Marriott ownership (for us points and weeks) will show up together on both the Vistana dashboard and the Marriott web account. You will be able to move, at no further cost, Vistana points into Destination Points and vice versa. You will be able to make Marriott reservations in the Vistana system and vice-versa. If you have an II account for Marriott and one for Vistana, those will also be merged into one account. The blended system will also move your Vistana points into the Marriott Trust, which will then allow for Vistana StarOptions to be resold to Marriott [Vistana currently does not do buy-backs] and, according to the sales people, will ease inheritance issues, especially if your children don’t want the timeshares [never could get this straight in my mind, except that with Vistana, it appears that the timeshares roll into your estate automatically, but I thought that the executor could always reject them.]
> 
> In addition, instead of the various fees that Vistana charges [banking, point conversion to Marriott Bonvoy, II fees for internal (Marriott to Vistana and vice-versa) exchanges, reservation cancellations, guest fees], these will now all be covered by the standard Marriott fee for the appropriate level, The Marriott fee covers both Vistana and Marriott membership, but I suspect it will go up proportionately. In addition, there will be no more housekeeping fees as we now experience with Vistana when the number of uses of points exceeds a certain level.
> 
> In the blended system, there is no more Home Resort window for reservations. All Vistana resorts will be able to be booked 12 months out and all Marriott resorts 13 months out, at least for Chairman’s Club level members. I am assuming that to book a Marriott with Vistana StarOptions, one would first have to convert the number needed and then the timeframe would apply.
> 
> The process requires one to turn in their current ownership of StarOptions and repurchase at the current StarOption point value. We were given full credit for the dollars we spent on our current ownership plus credit for an Explorer package we had purchased earlier plus credit for the hotels we stayed in on the road getting to Myrtle Beach. [They give up to 10 days credit coming and going; we got a good deal because we stayed on Marriott Bonvoy points on our trip and got credit for full value of the room rate.].
> 
> We have 176,700 StarOptions which would be valued at 5,140 Destination Points in the blended system. [34.37 StarOptions to 1 Destination Club Point]. It does appear that there will still be some “skim” in the system from Vistana to Marriott. I did a quick analysis comparing 2-bedroom lockouts in prime time [February/March] for Marriott Desert Springs II [3,775 Destination Club Points] and Westin Mission Hills [148,100 StarOptions] with the result of 39.23 StarOptions points to 1 Destination Club Point]. [Purchase price: 34.37; spend price 39.23]. Even in the blended system, it probably would be better to use StarOptions for Vistana resorts and Destination Club points for Marriott resorts.
> 
> The claim is, and I have no idea if it is true, it will be more expensive on the Marriott side to buy into the system. Essentially the current going price for a StarOption is about $.43 per point which should make a Marriott Destination Club point run about $14.72.
> 
> That is pretty much my brain dump about what we were told. Of course, there is NO paperwork to undergird the statements made. We are supposed to get it in the coming weeks as the system rolls out for good. Caveat emptor.
> 
> I started by posting this on the Vistana board, but thought that Marriott owners might find it interesting also.



I highly suspect that most of the process that you have listed here had been made up by the local sales team.  Move DC points to Vistana system and vice versa?  Doesn't sound like a one blended system.


----------



## TravelTime

CKMason said:


> Yes, there is a cost to >>join<< the blended system [the cost of repurchasing the StarOptions] but after joining all most all of the miscellaneous fees that Vistana charges go away, including any charges for converting points in one system to the other. Sorry I wasn't more clear.



As a person who bought Vistana and MVC from the developer, what did they say would be your out of pocket cost to join the blended system?


----------



## dioxide45

CKMason said:


> Yes, there is a cost to >>join<< the blended system [the cost of repurchasing the StarOptions] but after joining all most all of the miscellaneous fees that Vistana charges go away, including any charges for converting points in one system to the other. Sorry I wasn't more clear.


Realiase you were at a presentation where they were trying to sell you more timeshare. From other contact people have on the boards, if you own developer purchased StarOptions or enrolled Marriott weeks or Trust points, there should be no need to purchase anything new. Vistana owners that own "enrolled" VOIs won't have to buy anything new or pay any additional fee to "join".


----------



## CKMason

dioxide45 said:


> Realiase you were at a presentation where they were trying to sell you more timeshare. From other contact people have on the boards, if you own developer purchased StarOptions or enrolled Marriott weeks or Trust points, there should be no need to purchase anything new. Vistana owners that own "enrolled" VOIs won't have to buy anything new or pay any additional fee to "join".


I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens at the rollout in the summer.


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## jmhpsu93

VacationForever said:


> I highly suspect that most of the process that you have listed here had been made up by the local sales team.  Move DC points to Vistana system and vice versa?  Doesn't sound like a one blended system.


For what it's worth, if that's made up that's quite a lot of work that went into spinning that yarn.


----------



## Eric B

jmhpsu93 said:


> For what it's worth, if that's made up that's quite a lot of work that went into spinning that yarn.



I could see it taking a lot of work to come up with some problem that can only be solved by making another purchase when the buyer already owns as much or more than they can use.  Plus, they didn't have to sell anything that the buyer didn't already have and liked!  I wonder how much the closing costs were for that one.


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## Dean

jmhpsu93 said:


> For what it's worth, if that's made up that's quite a lot of work that went into spinning that yarn.


It's probably more half truths than completely made up.  I don't think anyone should buy anything based on their thoughts of a combined program until they have enough information to make an informed decision which no one has at this point.


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## Steve Fatula

Dean said:


> It's probably more half truths than completely made up.  I don't think anyone should buy anything based on their thoughts of a combined program until they have enough information to make an informed decision which no one has at this point.



Agree. It could have even been correct information at the time, but until implemented and announced, subject to change anyway.


----------



## Bird01

Re: "In the blended system, there is no more Home Resort window for reservations". I'm not sure what that means. Today, as a Vistana owner,  I can make a Home Resort reservation at 12 months. It seems that they must preserve the Home Resort priority for those owners. Maybe Marriott owners and Vistana options (not Home Resort) can only reserve Vistana properties at 8 months out? That's the way it is today for Star Options reservations at properties other than your Home Resort.


----------



## VacationForever

Bird01 said:


> Re: "In the blended system, there is no more Home Resort window for reservations". I'm not sure what that means. Today, as a Vistana owner,  I can make a Home Resort reservation at 12 months. It seems that they must preserve the Home Resort priority for those owners. Maybe Marriott owners and Vistana options (not Home Resort) can only reserve Vistana properties at 8 months out? That's the way it is today for Star Options reservations at properties other than your Home Resort.


There is still the concept of "Home Resort" booking window in MVC system for weeks.  Weeks and DC points are 2 separate inventory buckets.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> There is still the concept of "Home Resort" booking window in MVC system for weeks.  Weeks and DC points are 2 separate inventory buckets.



Then it might make sense that MVC could roll out the new program allowing DP owners, converted points from enrolled weeks and owners with more than one week (whether it is a Marriott or Vistana week), to book at 13 months. For single week owners of Marriott and Vistana, they would get the 12 month booking window. Then the program is pretty easy to integrate into the overall MVC program.


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## Bird01

Maybe. We have 5 weeks in Marriott now and can book at 13 months as I recall. And we are Elite 4 in Vistana. At our recent Vistana update we were told we would get a 13-month booking window. However, I do no recall if that was because of multiple Vistana properties (7 "weeks") or the Elite status level.


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## TravelTime

I have been thinking of whether to buy 3500 DPs on the resale market to get to Chairman’s Club level in the event they create more benefits for Chairman’s Club. But I have been waiting to see whether MVC will have a low cost way to enroll my Vistana week because that will get me past the requirement for Chairman’s Club.


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## dewco

Currently at Ko Olina on a 5-night, $699 package that requires the sales presentation. Bought this package in May 2019 with a 12 month usage under my name. The deadline was extend several times because of COVID but we are finally using it. We are staying in a ground floor studio with a view of the garden shrubbery. This studio is a huge downgrade from a Westin studio; more spacious, washer/dryer, full size refrigerator, two burners & dishwasher. We attended a presentation at Ko Olina in December 2019 where they offered points for sale but we didn’t buy anything. The integration is to happen in June But they are showing the combined package of properties is currently at 92. They seem to have all the property points loaded into their system. If we had taken the time, we could have been shown the point cost for a Westin property under

My other half owns several Westin properties, no Flex, and do not own anything Marriott so we are very interested in understanding the new combined program. We have always attended presentations together. We attended a Westin Princeville presentation in September 2021 as guests of our friends who we were staying with. During the Kauai trip we also had a Marriott presentation at the Kauai Beach Club location.

We attended the presentation on May 1 and kept quite about the Westin properties, waiting to see how much information the had on me/us. The only thing they had in their file is that I attended a presentation at a desert property in 2011. We were very low key during the presentation and didn’t want to bring up the Westin ownerships. We were mostly focused on the Marriott points they were trying to sell but did get around to discussing a bit of how the Westin would integrate with the new program. She showed us how a 2 bedroom lock off, island view, platinum, annual Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villa would become 6200 Club Points. The maintenance fee would do a double from the current fee under Westin. It would seen that this should be a really hard sell if people understood what will happen if they hand over their deeded Westin weeks for a bunch of points.

We don’t know the value of Marriott points so I can’t speculate about what we would get at a Marriott property but it seems hard to imagine that it would be anything that justify the huge increase in maintenance fees. The only thing we were shown was 20 examples of what one could do with1500 points. I glazed over when the price was discussed because I knew we weren’t interested. They did say the point price was to increase on May 3.

There is still lots to learn for us but we feel the learning process will be better at a Westin presentation.


----------



## kozykritter

dewco said:


> She showed us how a 2 bedroom lock off, island view, platinum, annual Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villa would become 6200 Club Points. The maintenance fee would do a double from the current fee under Westin. It would seen that this should be a really hard sell if people understood what will happen if they hand over their deeded Westin weeks for a bunch of points.


Wait, when you say hand over do you turn that ownership over to Marriott permanently and replace it with a points ownership? That's the only way having to pay maintenance fees to Marriott would make sense. What's been discussed through many sales presentations detailed on TUG instead is enrolling the ownership with Marriott and then deciding each year if you want to convert it into points. There's been no discussion that a Vistana owner would pay Marriott maintenance fees whenever they converted to DC points in a given year instead of paying maintenance fees to Vistana. This would change the whole equation for many people and I suspect permanently have them say no way!


----------



## jabberwocky

Bird01 said:


> Re: "In the blended system, there is no more Home Resort window for reservations". I'm not sure what that means. Today, as a Vistana owner,  I can make a Home Resort reservation at 12 months. It seems that they must preserve the Home Resort priority for those owners. Maybe Marriott owners and Vistana options (not Home Resort) can only reserve Vistana properties at 8 months out? That's the way it is today for Star Options reservations at properties other than your Home Resort.


The only way your Vistana week is in the “blended system” is if you elect it for points in the prior year. If you don’t elect then it is not in the blended system and you can book your home resort week.   So there may be a bit of truth in that statement.


----------



## jabberwocky

kozykritter said:


> Wait, when you say hand over do you turn that ownership over to Marriott permanently and replace it with a points ownership? That's the only way having to pay maintenance fees to Marriott would make sense. What's been discussed through many sales presentations detailed on TUG instead is enrolling the ownership with Marriott and then deciding each year if you want to convert it into points. There's been no discussion that a Vistana owner would pay Marriott maintenance fees whenever they converted to DC points in a given year instead of paying maintenance fees to Vistana. This would change the whole equation for many people and I suspect permanently have them say no way!


I think @dewco means that if you were to trade-in or sell your week and buy the equivalent points the MF would be more. If you elect for points it is for the following year only - and you can use your week as normal in the future.


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> I think @dewco means that if you were to trade-in or sell your week and buy the equivalent points the MF would be more. If you elect for points it is for the following year only - and you can use your week as normal in the future.


Probably so but always like to get clarification straight from the source of the post in case the salesperson told them something completely different than what we already think is true!


----------



## dewco

kozykritter said:


> Wait, when you say hand over do you turn that ownership over to Marriott permanently and replace it with a points ownership? That's the only way having to pay maintenance fees to Marriott would make sense. What's been discussed through many sales presentations detailed on TUG instead is enrolling the ownership with Marriott and then deciding each year if you want to convert it into points. There's been no discussion that a Vistana owner would pay Marriott maintenance fees whenever they converted to DC points in a given year instead of paying maintenance fees to Vistana. This would change the whole equation for many people and I suspect permanently have them say no way!


At this presentation, we didn’t discuss our Westin ownership so there wasn’t a specific discussion about how these ownerships would/could work in the blended system. Maybe I made assumptions from reading hundreds of speculative posts that the goal for Marriott is to convert the Westin & Sheraton (Vistana) ownerships to Marriott DC points. I do understand that one can’t be forced to do anything. Based on what was presented at the presentation, I don’t think it would make sense to pay the Marriott maintenance fees instead of the Vistana fees, whether it be a onetime exchange or a permanent transfer. My takeaway from the posts is that what fee is to be paid is unknown at this time.


----------



## SueDonJ

dewco said:


> At this presentation, we didn’t discuss our Westin ownership so there wasn’t a specific discussion about how these ownerships would/could work in the blended system. Maybe I made assumptions from reading hundreds of speculative posts that the goal for Marriott is to convert the Westin & Sheraton (Vistana) ownerships to Marriott DC points. I do understand that one can’t be forced to do anything. Based on what was presented at the presentation, I don’t think it would make sense to pay the Marriott maintenance fees instead of the Vistana fees, whether it be a onetime exchange or a permanent transfer. My takeaway from the posts is that what fee is to be paid is unknown at this time.


I think something got lost in translation during your presentation.

Enrolling an eligible Marriott Week in the Destination Club is never a permanent exchange of the Week for DC Points, and, the only Marriott owners who pay the per-point MF's are those who purchase Destination Club Trust Points. All like Weeks intervals (same resort/unit size/season) pay the same MF's regardless of whether a Week is enrolled or not and regardless of whether an enrolled Week is elected for DC Points or not. The only difference is that owners of DC-enrolled Weeks pay an additional annual Club Dues fee, which the amount varies based on the status tiers and is separately invoiced from the Weeks MF's. (This annual fee must be paid regardless of whether the enrolled Weeks are elected for points; non-payment of the Club Dues will result in the Week being unenrolled.)

I agree with your takeaway that it's unknown what the equivalent "Club Dues" fee will be for Vistana ownerships that are eligible for enrollment (meaning they can be elected for DC Points on an annual basis.) I sort of remember DeniseM's contact saying that the VSN fees already being charged will be raised to levels similar to Marriott's Club Dues fees?


----------



## dewco

SueDonJ said:


> I think something got lost in translation during your presentation.
> 
> Enrolling an eligible Marriott Week in the Destination Club is never a permanent exchange of the Week for DC Points, and, the only Marriott owners who pay the per-point MF's are those who purchase Destination Club Trust Points. All like Weeks intervals (same resort/unit size/season) pay the same MF's regardless of whether a Week is enrolled or not and regardless of whether an enrolled Week is elected for DC Points or not. The only difference is that owners of DC-enrolled Weeks pay an additional annual Club Dues fee, which the amount varies based on the status tiers and is separately invoiced from the Weeks MF's. (This annual fee must be paid regardless of whether the enrolled Weeks are elected for points; non-payment of the Club Dues will result in the Week being unenrolled.)
> 
> I agree with your takeaway that it's unknown what the equivalent "Club Dues" fee will be for Vistana ownerships that are eligible for enrollment (meaning they can be elected for DC Points on an annual basis.) I sort of remember DeniseM's contact saying that the VSN fees already being charged will be raised to levels similar to Marriott's Club Dues fees?


I never said I own any Marriott, only Westin, so I’m not familiar with how the various Marriott systems work. I also mentioned that I still have lots to learn & understand how the combined programs will work together.


----------



## SueDonJ

dewco said:


> I never said I own any Marriott, only Westin, so I’m not familiar with how the various Marriott systems work. I also mentioned that I still have lots to learn & understand how the combined programs will work together.


I figured that you didn't own Marriott so that's why I explained how Marriott works. Please understand, I'm not faulting you for your sales rep's obvious attempt to leave you confused about all this.


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## VacationForever

I've owned Vistana since 1996 and had RCI set up.   I have never stayed at where I own.  I called each year to deposit into the RCI system for exchange.  Subsequently I moved to RCI Points and 76,000 points just showed up each year without calling.  I left RCI in 2008 and moved to II.  Because I own a fixed/float week, the week was automatcally booked for me 18 months out and I always have to call to cancel.  But after cancelling, I could use the Vistana online system to reserve or deposit into II.


----------



## TravelTime

Has anyone heard whether MVC DC points owners will be able to book all the combined resorts at 13 months? Or do you think they will have different rules specifically for booking the Vistana resorts since Vistana currently only allows home resort bookings at 12 months and SO bookings at 8 months?

In the current MVC points system, is there any precedent for not allowing certain resorts to be booked at 13 months?

It would seem to me it would be a strange way to sell a new combined system with saying you can only book Marriott-branded resorts at 13 months and Westin/Sheraton branded resorts at 12 or 8 months.


----------



## Sicnarf

Since you need to deposit to DC by September the year before your use year, then anyone in DC should be able to book the deposited unit 13 months ahead (i.e., October the following year).


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> Has anyone heard whether MVC DC points owners will be able to book all the combined resorts at 13 months? Or do you think they will have different rules specifically for booking the Vistana resorts since Vistana currently only allows home resort bookings at 12 months and SO bookings at 8 months?
> 
> In the current MVC points system, is there any precedent for not allowing certain resorts to be booked at 13 months?
> 
> It would seem to me it would be a strange way to sell a new combined system with saying you can only book Marriott-branded resorts at 13 months and Westin/Sheraton branded resorts at 12 or 8 months.


The only precedent that exists in DC is for The Ritz-Carlton CLub for Members and Select Members where they can't book until 6 months in advance (Vail is an exception)

_Members and Select Members may not access Luxury Property, other than Accommodations located in The Ritz-Carlton Club, Vail, until six (6) months prior to the first day of a given unreserved Use Period._

I would fully expect Vistana properties to have the same booking windows as Marriott resorts. These of course will be booking windows, there might not be availability. Som resorts have rules in the CC&Rs that owners can't reserve more than 12 months in advance. That same rule should apply to the trusts and exchange company. So while you can theoretically book 13 months out, practically it is impossible. Some resorts can reserve 18 months in advance or actually automatically reserve 18 months out. The MVC Exchange Company could take advantage of that and make or keep those reservations to offer up for DC members. The trusts and MVC Exchange Company would have the same reservation rights as a regular owner.


----------



## Red elephant

From what I was explained at a recent presentation once Vistana owners convert their week to DC points then it belongs in that  network program and those rules apply not VSN.


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## dioxide45

Red elephant said:


> From what I was explained at a recent presentation once Vistana owners convert their week to DC points then it belongs in that  network program and those rules apply not VSN.


True, VSN rules would not apply, but underlying deeded reservation rules should still apply.


----------



## TravelTime

For me, there are a couple of main advantages to enrolling a Vistana week and electing DPs. The biggie to me is being able to book at 13 months and actually getting any resort I want in the room size and view type I want. I can’t get this now using SOs at 8 months. So I hope MVC will keep this benefit for DPs.


----------



## SueDonJ

TravelTime said:


> For me, there are a couple of main advantages to enrolling a Vistana week and electing DPs. The biggie to me is being able to book at 13 months and actually getting any resort I want in the room size and view type I want. I can’t get this now using SOs at 8 months. So I hope MVC will keep this benefit for DPs.


It's important to remember that the Destination Club functions "subject to availability" in the same way that any other floating timeshare system functions. Just because you may be eligible for certain reservation windows does not at all mean that what you want to book will be available to book as soon as any windows open. Inventory in the DC Exchange Company is as affected by high demand as inventory in any other exchange company.

As for whether inventory that isn't available to be booked by owners until a certain point can be made available before that point to DC members, I wouldn't even try to guess. We still don't know if the DC integration for Vistana owners will be the same as it is for Marriott owners/members, i.e. as an overlay separate from every other usage option, or (as suspected by some Vistana members) as a component of VSN membership. The setup matters because all of the stipulations in the governing docs of the DC and of the owners' existing applicable/affected components will have to legally coexist.


----------



## bazzap

Sicnarf said:


> Since you need to deposit to DC by September the year before your use year, then anyone in DC should be able to book the deposited unit 13 months ahead (i.e., October the following year).


The deadline for electing enrolled weeks for DC points varies by Owner level, ours is by end October the year before use year.


----------



## korndoc

I am at Marriott Maui Beach Club and am scheduled for a presentation tomorrow (Tuesday).  As far as I can tell from this long series of posts,  Marriott has yet to announce anything official regarding the combination of Vistana and MVC.  Is that true?
 I sat through a presentation in January and was told the rollout would be here by June and I needed to purchase 1000 trust points to take advantage of the combined program. But a quick check led to Tuggers advising me to not do anything until we see an official statement from Marriott. So I just want to be sure that after these 4 months there is still nothing official and therefore I should ignore anything suggested by the salesperson Tuesday. (Interestingly, that salesperson actually allowed me to leave the presentation and get back to him later in the day with the same offers still available, giving me the opportunity to write to TUG and get responses!  That’s never happened to me before and he will probably never allow that again since I turned him down.)
Thanks,
Jeff


----------



## dougp26364

Nothing new. NEVER buy on a promise. The only reasonable reason to buy more points is because you need more points to achieve your vacation goals based on the program rules at the time you buy. Ther has been NOTHING put in writing that says current owners need to “buy more points” to be included in any merged program. To the contrary, recent owner updates seem to indicate all owners will have access to all resort weeks deposited into the points program without making an additional purchase. Likewise ILG owners will have access to the points program simply by electing to deposit their weeks into the DC, much like MVW owners do when depositing their deeded weeks into the DC.. NO ADDITIONAL PURCHASE REQUIRED.

Of course we won’t know for certain until the program is officially rolled out.


----------



## korndoc

Thanks. After my experience in January and strong TUG advice, I was going to today’s meeting knowing not to add any points. But I wanted to be sure I didn’t miss anything official from Marriott.   Glad to learn I haven’t. 
     Really funny how in March we were all expecting the Marriott announcement.  When it didn’t come out on a particular Monday the word was to expect it NEXT Monday.  Would have been nice to have known WHICH Monday


----------



## JIMinNC

korndoc said:


> Thanks. After my experience in January and strong TUG advice, I was going to today’s meeting knowing not to add any points. But I wanted to be sure I didn’t miss anything official from Marriott.   Glad to learn I haven’t.
> Really funny how in March we were all expecting the Marriott announcement.  When it didn’t come out on a particular Monday the word was to expect it NEXT Monday.  Would have been nice to have known WHICH Monday



Actually, they DID roll out the new program in late March in what has been called a "soft launch", but at this point it's only through the sales offices. The sales teams have been given information and are passing that info on to owners during sales presentations. But since Sales often "embellishes" the facts in order to make a sale, it's still hard to distinguish what facts the sales people are accurately communicating and what is just sales spin. For what it's worth, here is what the Marriott Vacations Worldwide CEO said in the quarterly earnings call last week:

_*"At the end of March, we began pre-marketing our new combined product offering at our Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton sales centers, and we expect to complete the development of the related technology and officially launch the product later this summer."*_

Until the actual program rules are published in updated program terms and conditions documentation, it will be hard to know exactly what the accurate details are. That should come in a few months.


----------



## rthib

And even is you want trust points buy resale. Only reason to buy direct is to get a hybrid deal (points and enrolled week) or to enroll multiple resale weeks


----------



## korndoc

OK, went to the sales meeting today. As Doug said, owners will have access to Vistana properties by simply going online like we do now for Marriott properties with no reason to spend more. He even showed me the new Marriott website that lists Marriott, Sheraton and Westin properties.
But then he told me I had to be a hybrid owner or VIPowner otherwise I will NOT be able to access the Vistana properties! That would require me to own 4000 points. With my Desert Springs Villas I own only 3225points.
In January Tuggers told me not to buy anything until we see what is officially required. At that time the minimum they would sell was 1000 points which would make me a VIP. Today they told me the minimum they would sell is 1500 points,  TUG folk said in January even if I do need to be a hybrid or VIP, I could buy points at a third of the $15-16 they wanted. 
     Now RTHIB says:


rthib said:


> Only reason to buy direct is to get a hybrid deal (points and enrolled week)


      So now I am confused. Can I become a Hybrid or VIP owner by buying on the 2nd hand market or must I buy direct from Marriott? And if I need to buy from Marriott I now have to buy 50% more points than I needed in January! 
     Signed: Frustrated and confused in Maui. (But SO RELAXED!)
      Thanks for your replies


----------



## dioxide45

Don't buy anything more until we see what is officially announced (outside a sales presentation) and see if what you own now can actually book Vistana properties. Hybrid owner and VIP are not official terms, they only seem to come out of the sales team.


----------



## rthib

korndoc said:


> Now RTHIB says:
> 
> So now I am confused. Can I become a Hybrid or VIP owner by buying on the 2nd hand market or must I buy direct from Marriott? And if I need to buy from Marriott I now have to buy 50% more points than I needed in January!
> Signed: Frustrated and confused in Maui. (But SO RELAXED!)
> Thanks for your replies


Not a hybrid owner but a hybrid package. If you wanted to get up next level it is usually about same as secondary market to buy a hybrid pack which a week and point which usually equals out to around $7/pt but with lower MF since the week should have lower per point MF. But only useful if you want a large number of points.

If you just want 1000 points, best place to buy is resale. Cheaper and after you pay the fee (referred to by tuggers as junk fee) the points are same as Marriott points just much, much cheaper.


----------



## kozykritter

Hybrid owner could refer to owning both MVC and Vistana. It's how they pitched it to me at two different MVC presentations in 2019 as a way to guarantee access to the combined program. Since they don't sell Vistana ownership, they pitched  you DC points to take the Elite (VIP) route instead, 4000 getting you to Select level. We have no independent confirmation from Marriott yet whether what they told you is true, of course.


----------



## DanCali

Not sure that I've seen Elite levels referred to as "VIP" before.

I asked to speak with a supervisor yesterday and was on hold for about 20 minutes - didn't quite feel like I got the "VIP" treatment! (although the supervisor was helpful once I finally got her on the line)


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> Hybrid owner could refer to owning both MVC and Vistana. It's how they pitched it to me at two different MVC presentations in 2019 as a way to guarantee access to the combined program. Since they don't sell Vistana ownership, they pitched  you DC points to take the Elite (VIP) route instead, 4000 getting you to Select level. We have no independent confirmation from Marriott yet whether what are saying is true.


Exactly my point. MVC long considered "hybrid" to be an enrolled weeks owner with Trust Points. Now they pitch it as a Vistana and Marriott owner. No where in the documentation for the program is "hybrid" mentioned. It is a term meant to sell you on emotion, not on logic.


----------



## Dean

DanCali said:


> Not sure that I've seen Elite levels referred to as "VIP" before.
> 
> I asked to speak with a supervisor yesterday and was on hold for about 20 minutes - didn't quite feel like I got the "VIP" treatment! (although the supervisor was helpful once I finally got her on the line)


Technically they're called "Owner Benefit Levels".  Elite actually refers to Bonvoy.  I personally have used the term VIP interchangeably for MVC.  Whether one feels like a VIP really doesn't matter IMO no different than if one feels Elite.


----------



## Steve Fatula

DanCali said:


> I asked to speak with a supervisor yesterday and was on hold for about 20 minutes - didn't quite feel like I got the "VIP" treatment! (although the supervisor was helpful once I finally got her on the line)



But, but, your call is *very important*!


----------



## catharsis

The hold time when calling "MVC4VIP" is very definitely different than when calling the non-chairmans club line... so this at least tacitly an official designation.


----------



## TravelTime

Does folks think they are enhancing Chairman’s Level and that is why the online system is having problems?


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> Does folks think they are enhancing Chairman’s Level and that is why the online system is having problems?


Doubtful. I was getting some 500 errors just trying to access the profile page. Likely database issues and timeouts.


----------



## korndoc

The salesman told me “hybrid “ referred to owning a week plus owning separately purchased Trust points. And having a total of 4000 combined points brings me to VIP status.  Either hybrid or VIP status would allow me to reserve a Westin or other Vistana property.


----------



## dioxide45

catharsis said:


> The hold time when calling "MVC4VIP" is very definitely different than when calling the non-chairmans club line... so this at least tacitly an official designation.


That phone number and "VIP Weekends" seem to be the only reference to it. I can't find "VIP" referenced anywhere in the MVC Exchange Procedures document.


----------



## dioxide45

korndoc said:


> The salesman told me “hybrid “ referred to owning a week plus owning separately purchased Trust points. And having a total of 4000 combined points brings me to VIP status.  Either hybrid or VIP status would allow me to reserve a Westin or other Vistana property.


"Hybrid" is a meaningless term with no real definition. It can't be found anywhere in the MVC Exchange Procedures document. We also don't know of any official qualifications to be able to book a Vistana property with DC Club Points. It was all a sales trick to sell more points.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Cannot log into Marriott site today.  Hmmm...


----------



## dioxide45

rickandcindy23 said:


> Cannot log into Marriott site today.  Hmmm...


I have been able to login. But can't navigate very well. Sometimes I can get to the profile page, more times I can't. I was able to do a chat earlier. I haven't tried searching availability.


----------



## TravelTime

I know the new program will be announced in June. Does anyone have an idea if it will be early, mid or late June?


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> I know the new program will be announced in June. Does anyone have an idea if it will be early, mid or late June?


I have seen late June reported more often. I predice June 19th or 26th.


----------



## dougp26364

dioxide45 said:


> I have seen late June reported more often. I predice June 19th or 26th.



What year?


----------



## Pucelle

I sat through a presentation May 6th at Ko'Olina.  In the presentation paperwork they have, everything goes until June 29th and June 30th is the start of whatever the new system will be.  I found that to be such an odd date, why not just go to June 30th and start the new program July 1st?


----------



## dougp26364

Pucelle said:


> I sat through a presentation May 6th at Ko'Olina.  In the presentation paperwork they have, everything goes until June 29th and June 30th is the start of whatever the new system will be.  I found that to be such an odd date, why not just go to June 30th and start the new program July 1st?



Perhaps there’s something magical about the 6 months mark? 

June 30th is a Thursday. Maybe they want to make sure the IT department is available on a weekday so when the bugs appear they’re not on weekend time trying to fix it? Could also have to do with web site traffic. Maybe Thursday is a slower day and there will less disruption.


----------



## dsmrp

Or maybe Marriott-MVC's fiscal year begins July 1st, and there's a large accounting/tax advantage for having new program begin in the current fiscal year 2022.

MVC IT will be told to support whatever date, day of the week the execs decide on. ( I worked in IT, and financial concerns ruled. )


----------



## JIMinNC

dsmrp said:


> Or maybe Marriott-MVC's fiscal year begins July 1st, and there's a large accounting/tax advantage for having new program begin in the current fiscal year 2022.
> 
> MVC IT will be told to support whatever date, day of the week the execs decide on. ( I worked in IT, and financial concerns ruled. )



Marriott Vacations Worldwide is on a calendar year fiscal year - Jan 1-Dec 31.


----------



## wuv pooh

At my presentation yesterday the sales rep was able to show that the resorts are in the system and that initial points and point charts are in the system.  Not allowed to review the charts since they are not final, but they are clearly getting close if they can solve their other IT issues.


----------



## dougp26364

wuv pooh said:


> At my presentation yesterday the sales rep was able to show that the resorts are in the system and that initial points and point charts are in the system.  Not allowed to review the charts since they are not final, but they are clearly getting close if they can solve their other IT issues.



This gives me hope that maybe there might be new places to explore beginning in 2024 for us. My 2023 plans are pretty much laid out. By the time they get the new options loaded I’ll have everything booked for 2023 that I I tend to book with MVW with the exception of December, and December is either south Florida or Hawaii. MVW has great options in both locations, so adding ILG does little for us when making 2023 plans

Of course we’ve had that hope for the last few years……So there’s that


----------



## kozykritter

wuv pooh said:


> At my presentation yesterday the sales rep was able to show that the resorts are in the system and that initial points and point charts are in the system.  Not allowed to review the charts since they are not final, but they are clearly getting close if they can solve their other IT issues.


Interesting! Did they mention what those other IT issues were?


----------



## TravelTime

dougp26364 said:


> This gives me hope that maybe there might be new places to explore beginning in 2024 for us. My 2023 plans are pretty much laid out. By the time they get the new options loaded I’ll have everything booked for 2023 that I I tend to book with MVW with the exception of December, and December is either south Florida or Hawaii. MVW has great options in both locations, so adding ILG does little for us when making 2023 plans
> 
> Of course we’ve had that hope for the last few years……So there’s that



Are the new resorts all the Vistana resorts? Anything new other than Vistana? Have you heard how much in advance the Vistana resorts will be able to be booked? 13 months? 12 months?


----------



## dougp26364

TravelTime said:


> Are the new resorts all the Vistana resorts? Anything new other than Vistana? Have you heard how much in advance the Vistana resorts will be able to be booked? 13 months? 12 months?



The only things I’ve heard are on this site. We’ve spoken with salesmen and we’ve actually purchased enough points/deeds to go from executive to presidential to chairman level….. but that was for our own wants/needs/desires within MVW and without concern for whatever the merger may or may not bring.

Judging by what’s been reported by others, everything with ILG EXCEPT for Hyatt/Welk properties should be available based on what’s deposited into the DC points pool. Per this site it sounds as if all unsold inventory will automatically become part of the trust and there will be no more deeds sold, with the possible exception of deeds being resold directly by MVW from owners using their sales department to get rid of their unwanted timeshare deeds (bundle packages of re-sale deed plus new points). 

What will we really see? No one knows for certain. It does appear that the fog is clearing from the crystal ball and the information gleaned from the owners updates is more accurate than it’s been in the past.


----------



## Dean

TravelTime said:


> Are the new resorts all the Vistana resorts? Anything new other than Vistana? Have you heard how much in advance the Vistana resorts will be able to be booked? 13 months? 12 months?


My source tells me all Westin related options except the Bahama's and Avon, at least for now.


----------



## dioxide45

Dean said:


> My source tells me all Westin related options except the Bahama's and Avon, at least for now.


That is also what all of the marketing material that we have seen reported from sales presentations seem to indicate in the fine print.


----------



## jabberwocky

dougp26364 said:


> Judging by what’s been reported by others, everything with ILG EXCEPT for Hyatt/Welk properties should be available based on what’s deposited into the DC points pool.


I think it is just Vistana properties for now. ILG also includes the Aqua-Aston properties in addition to Hyatt/Welk and Vistana. I haven’t heard of those Aqua-Aston being included in the trust.


----------



## dsmrp

Dean said:


> My source tells me all Westin related options except the Bahama's and Avon, at least for now.


By "Westin" do you mean only the Westin branded resorts or all Vistana, including Sheraton branded, except 
Harborside and Westin Riverfront ?


----------



## dioxide45

dsmrp said:


> By "Westin" do you mean only the Westin branded resorts or all Vistana, including Sheraton branded, except
> Harborside and Westin Riverfront ?


Sheraton branded are included as well as the one non Sheraton branded Vistana Beach Club.


----------



## VacationForever

jabberwocky said:


> I think it is just Vistana properties for now. ILG also includes the Aqua-Aston properties in addition to Hyatt/Welk and Vistana. I haven’t heard of those Aqua-Aston being included in the trust.


As I recall, Aqua-Aston properties have been resold by MVW.


----------



## wuv pooh

Dean said:


> My source tells me all Westin related options except the Bahama's and Avon, at least for now.


The map they showed me has all the Westins I am aware of. Vistana 
was in orlando, but don't know if there are others. They said Atlantis has some issue right now. First occupancy is sometime in 2023 for all resorts. All owners are to be equal with no Marriott or Westin preference like in II.


----------



## wuv pooh

Here is the brochure showing the resorts and that Atlantis and one in Colorado are to be a year late.


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> As I recall, Aqua-Aston properties have been resold by MVW.


Not yet at least. Still owned by VAC.


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> Not yet at least. Still owned by VAC.


I must have gotten a stroke!


----------



## DanCali

Got some info at an MVC Owner update that MVC owners will be able to book Vistana resorts for 2023 reservations (Jan 1 or later checkin) starting July 1. Almost there…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dsmrp

DanCali said:


> Got some info at an MVC Owner update that MVC owners will be able to book Vistana resorts for 2023 reservations (Jan 1 or later checkin) starting July 1. Almost there…



So if prior speculation is true, i.e. all Vistana unsold inventory + Flex will be put into DC or trust,
then only mandatory resale owners and direct VSN owners not opting for DC will be 'funding' inventory for VSN.
I don't think (tho' have no data) that Flex is the majority of VSN inventory.
I am hopeful VSN inventory won't be significantly affected, but would miss exchanging into SDO.
My apologies if this has all been hashed out earlier.

If Marriott keeps inventory within DC and doesn't do II mini bulk deposits, there will be little/no Marriott/Vistana units for Vistana voluntary resale owners to exchange into. 
Bulk deposits are already few & far between.
Limiting II deposits is another method to push resale owners to pay their pound of flesh (er $$)
or deedback to Marriott. To paraphrase a Vistana salesman from years ago, "your unit was resale from the prior system, but you haven't bought from my (current) system".


----------



## dougp26364

dsmrp said:


> So if prior speculation is true, i.e. all Vistana unsold inventory + Flex will be put into DC or trust,
> then only mandatory resale owners and direct VSN owners not opting for DC will be 'funding' inventory for VSN.
> I don't think (tho' have no data) that Flex is the majority of VSN inventory.
> I am hopeful VSN inventory won't be significantly affected, but would miss exchanging into SDO.
> My apologies if this has all been hashed out earlier.
> 
> If Marriott keeps inventory within DC and doesn't do II mini bulk deposits, there will be little/no Marriott/Vistana units for Vistana voluntary resale owners to exchange into.
> Bulk deposits are already few & far between.
> Limiting II deposits is another method to push resale owners to pay their pound of flesh (er $$)
> or deedback to Marriott. To paraphrase a Vistana salesman from years ago, "your unit was resale from the prior system, but you haven't bought from my (current) system".



For the last 10 or so years Marriott, as well as other timeshare management companies, have been scheming to control their inventory as a way to force people who want to stay on their system to have to buy into that system. Furthermore they’ve always schemed ways to reduce the value of resale and/or force the resale buyer to buy at least some retail to “legitimize” those resale weeks. 

I’ve been a member of II since our first purchase in 1998. There have been many changes since then, including availability of instant exchanges. I can still find great availability in resorts that aren’t part of larger systems, but finding the Marriott weeks I use to be able to find via instant exchange has become more difficult. There was a time when I was a three bedroom ocean front at Ocean Pointe with my studio Ocean Pointe deposit. I use to deposit the studio and trade back into Ocean Pointe for the master suite of the 3 bedroom OF unit. I haven’t seen that sort of instant exchange availability in years.

Many years ago I recall a salesman telling us that we wouldn’t be able to trade up in size at all and exchanging into a Marriott resort without being a Marriott owner would be impossible. Well, that hasn’t exactly come true, but there has been a shift and Marriott does have much tighter control of its inventory than it has in the past. Will they ever get to the point where you must have a least a little bit of retail to access anything Marriott? I doubt it. Will they tighten the screws? If you ask me, they already have. How will all this affect ILG owners, especially resale owners? Ask Marriott resale owners that have owned before/after the beginning of the DC and you’ll get a clearer picture. 

Keep in mind I generally look for instant exchanges anymore, and even that has been few and far between. I believe deposit first or request first exchanges still bring the desired results. For our situation we’re limited to what weeks we can travel and I prefer to choose my resort and week rather than give II a range of dates and/or resorts. So my view is defiantly skewed towards the instant exchange inventory.


----------



## VacationForever

I didn't own Marriott timeshare until 2013.  For me, I have had no issues in getting II exchanges, and we are very specific as to where and when we want to go.


----------



## craigc

Dean said:


> My source tells me all Westin related options except the Bahama's and Avon, at least for now.



Of course......the two I am most interested in .  Any idea why these two are not included at launch Dean?


----------



## Dean

craigc said:


> Of course......the two I am most interested in .  Any idea why these two are not included at launch Dean?


I think it's related to unique issues with the legal documents but there may be others more versed than I on the why.  I got the sense it was felt they'd come along but it'd be a couple of years more, we'll see.


----------



## kozykritter

craigc said:


> Of course......the two I am most interested in .  Any idea why these two are not included at launch Dean?


Those two properties are delayed due to their unique ownership structures. Harborside at Atlantis is jointly owned with another company and Westin Riverfront is owned by a development company which built it and operates it on behalf of Vistana. That means there's going to have to be legal negotiations to change their agreement terms  to allow the new program, which means they won't participate at the initial launch but Marriott is hopeful they will be available the following year, meaning 2024 bookings.


----------



## heitmullerj02

I have not switched to II with  my fixed week Vistana because RCI converts it to points. I trade this for Sedona and SO. Cal Does anyone think I would get a better pick on trading with II or is it just another annual fee?


----------



## heitmullerj02

Should add that with RCI points, I can split my week which I do all the time. I believe there is an additional fee in II todo this.


----------



## VacationForever

heitmullerj02 said:


> Should add that with RCI points, I can split my week which I do all the time. I believe there is an additional fee in II todo this.


What do you own?  Do you own a 2BR lockoff or a dedicated 2BR?  If it is a dedicated 2BR, you cannot split into 2 weeks in II.  II has much better properties.  I was with RCI from 1996 to 2007 and then switched to II.  Best decision ever.   Almost all my trades are back into Westin and Marriott properties.  I traded into a 2BR Four Seasons Aviara in April with a 1BR portion of SVR.


----------



## dioxide45

Is SVR the only Vistana resort that has some weeks in RCI Points? Will these be able to be enrolled in the new program? For some reason I would think these can't be enrolled and would continue to operate through RCI Points.


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> Is SVR the only Vistana resort that has some weeks in RCI Points? Will these be able to be enrolled in the new program? For some reason I would think these can't be enrolled and would continue to operate through RCI Points.


Desert Springs also trades in RCI.  With SVR, I was in RCI Weeks for about 5 years and then moved to RCI Points for another 5 years, before cancelling it out and moved to II.  Being in RCI points does not have anything to do with whether they can be enrolled or not.


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> Desert Springs also trades in RCI.  With SVR, I was in RCI Weeks for about 5 years and then moved to RCI Points for another 5 years, before cancelling it out and moved to II.  Being in RCI points does not have anything to do with whether they can be enrolled or not.


But there is a difference between trading in RCI and an RCI points week. RCI points means you automatically get RCI points (not TPU) every year (or every other year) for your week to use in RCI Points. With an RCI Points ownership, I think in order to use your week as a week at your home resort you have to call RCI to tell them you are using your week and don't want the RCI Points. A week that is enrolled in RCI Points may get messy when also enrolled in Abound.


----------



## Bodie

MVC has to service their debt.  The purchase isn't a gift to us.  We will pay in some form.  For me, there is nothing of appeal except for what they added in the Caribbean and Mexico.  Just more of the same.


----------



## VacationForever

dioxide45 said:


> But there is a difference between trading in RCI and an RCI points week. RCI points means you automatically get RCI points (not TPU) every year (or every other year) for your week to use in RCI Points. With an RCI Points ownership, I think in order to use your week as a week at your home resort you have to call RCI to tell them you are using your week and don't want the RCI Points. A week that is enrolled in RCI Points may get messy when also enrolled in Abound.


Yes, we are saying the same thing. I received 76K RCI points automatically, unless I told them that I wanted to use my week. While my SVR was developer purchase, I did not elect to enroll in SVN until 2012 or so, and by that time I was in II.  Presumably, I would have to drop RCI when I enrolled in SVN.  Sheraton/Starwood Vacation Club sent me mail every year since its inception of SVN in 1999 to join, initially for $99 and that would include II. I received final notice to join in 2012 for $599 and that I would no longer be offered again.


----------



## DRH90277

dioxide45 said:


> But there is a difference between trading in RCI and an RCI points week. RCI points means you automatically get RCI points (not TPU) every year (or every other year) for your week to use in RCI Points. With an RCI Points ownership, I think in order to use your week as a week at your home resort you have to call RCI to tell them you are using your week and don't want the RCI Points. A week that is enrolled in RCI Points may get messy when also enrolled in Abound.



Vistana - Is there a list of the specific properties that will be added for points and when?  A salesperson at OceanWatch had a few pages of required points for various resorts at the end of June.  I should have taken a photo of the booklet.  It was no secret but merely not widely distributed at that point.


----------



## dsmrp

DRH90277 said:


> Vistana - Is there a list of the specific properties that will be added for points and when?  A salesperson at OceanWatch had a few pages of required points for various resorts at the end of June.  I should have taken a photo of the booklet.  It was no secret but merely not widely distributed at that point.


I think all Vistana resorts except Harborside Bahamas and Westin Riverside (CO) can be in the Abound program. There is a PDF file for 2022 point values.  I've seen it in various posts here. Or suggest you check the stickies.


----------



## ljmiii

DRH90277 said:


> Vistana - Is there a list of the specific properties that will be added for points and when?


I have this, which shows the Vistana (and MVC) properties which will be accessible with MVC DPs. I haven't seen the points charts.


----------



## dsmrp

dsmrp said:


> I think all Vistana resorts except Harborside Bahamas and Westin Riverside (CO) can be in the Abound program. There is a PDF file for 2022 point values.  I've seen it in various posts here. Or suggest you check the stickies.


@DRH90277, here is the stickies post in which SunDonJ has linked in the 2023 DC club redemption tables. Vistana resorts aren't in it tho.









						Marriott Abound (formerly Destination Club) Points-System FAQ & Guide
					

** During 2022 Marriott Vacations Worldwide announced in Investor Meetings that Vistana timeshares would be integrated into the Marriott points system, and, that the Destination Club would be renamed Abound. After all details have been officially announced, this FAQ will be reviewed/edited to...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## Bodie

We bought two weeks in Aruba back in 2004.  We  enjoyed our ownership and the benefits that came with it.  In 2012 we added 2500 DC points.  For the past few years, the entire process of planning for a vacation  has become - to me - ridiculously  cumbersome.  Moreover, the  product has become stale and boring.   There are those on this site who seem to navigate the rules and opportunities with ease;  I am not one of them.    The spin off from Marriott, Inc has not enhanced the MVC product.  Within the next few years, I will sell our interests for whatever price I get.  We knew from the beginning this was not an "investment" that would gain in value.  Regrettably, I can no longer recommend MVC and its product(s) to anyone.


----------



## VacationForever

Bodie said:


> We bought two weeks in Aruba back in 2004.  We  enjoyed our ownership and the benefits that came with it.  In 2012 we added 2500 DC points.  For the past few years, the entire process of planning for a vacation  has become - to me - ridiculously  cumbersome.  Moreover, the  product has become stale and boring.   There are those on this site who seem to navigate the rules and opportunities with ease;  I am not one of them.    The spin off from Marriott, Inc has not enhanced the MVC product.  Within the next few years, I will sell our interests for whatever price I get.  We knew from the beginning this was not an "investment" that would gain in value.  Regrettably, I can no longer recommend MVC and its product(s) to anyone.


The alternative is to pay more to stay in a tiny hotel room.  We refuse to stay in a standard hotel room anymore.  Space is very important to us when we are away from home.  No matter how bad a timeshare product is, whether it is a Marriott or a Wyndham, the value proposition remains excellent.

Where are you going to stay when you travel?  Other than cruising, there is not another product.


----------



## Bodie

VacationForever said:


> The alternative is to pay more to stay in a tiny hotel room.  We refuse to stay in a standard hotel room anymore.  Space is very important to us when we are away from home.  No matter how bad a timeshare product is, whether it is a Marriott or a Wyndham, the value proposition remains excellent.
> 
> Where are you going to stay when you travel?  Other than cruising, there is not another product.


We are aging out on travel .   At some point, it will become too difficult.  Not tomorrow or next year but within the next 10-12.  Right now, we're active and healthy.  Cruising is not our thing.  Simply saying, I could not recommend MVC - as it has become -  to anyone.


----------



## Ken555

VacationForever said:


> The alternative is to pay more to stay in a tiny hotel room. We refuse to stay in a standard hotel room anymore. Space is very important to us when we are away from home. No matter how bad a timeshare product is, whether it is a Marriott or a Wyndham, the value proposition remains excellent.
> 
> Where are you going to stay when you travel? Other than cruising, there is not another product.



Private home rentals. There’s more out there than just hotels and timeshares.


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## VacationForever

Ken555 said:


> Private home rentals. There’s more out there than just hotels and timeshares.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I don't do private home rentals, period.  To each his own.


----------



## Ken555

VacationForever said:


> I don't do private home rentals, period. To each his own.



That’s fine, but doesn’t mean others won’t…still means your earlier post was incomplete. I was just pointing out one type of alternative rental, and there are others, too, beyond cruises, hotels or timeshares.


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## GregT

VacationForever said:


> I don't do private home rentals, period.  To each his own.


Hello VF,

I'm curious about this -- Jonell and I do it with increasing frequency as a different outlet to our traditional 15-year travel pattern -- I would appreciate your thoughts on the downsides as our experience has mostly been good.

Best,

Greg


----------



## VacationForever

GregT said:


> Hello VF,
> 
> I'm curious about this -- Jonell and I do it with increasing frequency as a different outlet to our traditional 15-year travel pattern -- I would appreciate your thoughts on the downsides as our experience has mostly been good.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


Renting someone's home means there can be surprises.  It maybe something as basic as beds and linens, and cleanliness of the home.  There is also the worry of the remote chance that there are hidden cameras.  Going with big brand names means consistencies, the ability to change rooms and escalate to get problems resolved.  When we were in Italy, the tour guides were pointing out the AirBnB apartments and we were rather turned off.  Sometimes pictures don't realistically depict the conditions of the accommodation.  We are somewhat picky, especially my husband.  Surprises mean stress for him, which translates to stress for me.


----------



## Ken555

VacationForever said:


> Renting someone's home means there can be surprises. It maybe something as basic as beds and linens, and cleanliness of the home. There is also the worry of the remote chance that there are hidden cameras. Going with big brand names means consistencies, the ability to change rooms and escalate to get problems resolved. When we were in Italy, the tour guides were pointing out the AirBnB apartments and we were rather turned off. Sometimes pictures don't realistically depict the conditions of the accommodation. We are somewhat picky, especially my husband. Surprises mean stress for him, which translates to stress for me.



On the flip side, I had friends who were in Italy last week and rented several private homes. They had wonderful experiences. That said, they were expensive. If you plan on renting a private home and pay the same or less than a hotel, your experience will be different.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## JIMinNC

GregT said:


> Hello VF,
> 
> I'm curious about this -- Jonell and I do it with increasing frequency as a different outlet to our traditional 15-year travel pattern -- I would appreciate your thoughts on the downsides as our experience has mostly been good.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg




@GregT, as another data point, my sentiments are almost exactly the same as @VacationForever

We also prefer the more predictable quality of timeshares and hotels that are affiliated with the major chains. About the only time we would consider an AirBnB or VRBO would be if we were going somewhere where there were no major brand affiliated timeshares/hotels. Our feelings have only been solidified in the last three years that we've owned our Hilton Head condo. Most of the units in the complex where we own are in some kind of rental program and we've now seen the great variability in quality from unit-to-unit. Some friends of ours have exceedingly nice renovated units that we would be happy to put friends or family in if we needed extra space in addition to our 2BR in the future, but some other units I would be embarrassed to send someone too. I find it hard to trust online reviews as the unit we bought was rated 4-5 stars on VRBO, but we thought it was awful and would have been very disappointed if we had rented that unit from the previous owner. We only slept there two or three times before we launched a $100K full renovation.


----------



## DRH90277

Vistana - Weston and Sheraton timeshares.  Has anyone been able to compare these to the Marriott timeshares?  Are they considered the equivalent, worse, or better in terms of the locations, facilities and experiences?  Is Vacation Club trying to upgrade or downgrade the experience and cost?    

I looked online at the one in Myrtle Beach and it didn't seem up to the Marriott standard in terms of the facilities and location.  

My only other experience with recent additions to the portfolio is with the Mayflower Pulse in Washington, DC.  We stayed there a couple of years ago and it was a pretty big step down and in need of a major renovation.  The only attribute we saw was the location.  We will give it another chance if they clean it up and fix it up.  I would love to hear a good report on this one.


----------



## alexadeparis

DRH90277 said:


> Vistana - Weston and Sheraton timeshares.  Has anyone been able to compare these to the Marriott timeshares?  Are they considered the equivalent, worse, or better in terms of the locations, facilities and experiences?  Is Vacation Club trying to upgrade or downgrade the experience and cost?
> 
> I looked online at the one in Myrtle Beach and it didn't seem up to the Marriott standard in terms of the facilities and location.
> 
> My only other experience with recent additions to the portfolio is with the Mayflower Pulse in Washington, DC.  We stayed there a couple of years ago and it was a pretty big step down and in need of a major renovation.  The only attribute we saw was the location.  We will give it another chance if they clean it up and fix it up.  I would love to hear a good report on this one.


IMHO, Westin exceeds Marriott, Sheraton is a little lower sometimes than Marriott, but usually almost equivalent.


----------



## dioxide45

DRH90277 said:


> Vistana - Weston and Sheraton timeshares.  Has anyone been able to compare these to the Marriott timeshares?  Are they considered the equivalent, worse, or better in terms of the locations, facilities and experiences?  Is Vacation Club trying to upgrade or downgrade the experience and cost?
> 
> I looked online at the one in Myrtle Beach and it didn't seem up to the Marriott standard in terms of the facilities and location.
> 
> My only other experience with recent additions to the portfolio is with the Mayflower Pulse in Washington, DC.  We stayed there a couple of years ago and it was a pretty big step down and in need of a major renovation.  The only attribute we saw was the location.  We will give it another chance if they clean it up and fix it up.  I would love to hear a good report on this one.


There are certainly some properties that aren't up to snuff. Those tend to be the hotel conversions or older resorts that are not as consistent with the brand. The Mayflower is a hotel conversion. I am not sure why you would say the Myrtle Beach location was not up to standard. I suspect you are talking about OceanWatch? This is one of Marriott's flagship properties with beautiful 2BR villas. The location isn't on the boardwalk of Myrtle Beach, but many like the location in North Myrtle Beach. The Marriott OceanWatch resort is far and above better than Sheraton Broadway Plantation.

As for comparing the different resorts; Sheraton, Westin & Marriott. We own both Marriott and Vistana and have stayed at over 30 resorts. I would put the Westin resorts on par with most of the top tier Marriotts. The problem with many Westins is the amenities in the units, especially the kitchen is lacking. Poor quality cooking supplies like pots and pans along with a poor selection of cooking utensils is one thing we don't like about the Westin Vacation Club properties. Westin and Sheraton don't even provide any food storage containers in the kitchen. Marriott's have higher quality dinnerware, silverware and pots and pans than both Westin and Sheraton. As for the rest of the unit, Westin is far and above better in the bathroom department. Their villa bathrooms are fantastic. Marriott has an edge for in room entertainment given that most of their units have internet connected television systems that allow you to connect to Prime, YouTube and Netflix without needing to have your own device. I have yet to see that at a Westin or Sheraton property. Westin and Sheraton also use flat sheets on the beds and don't seem to have a proper duvet. We always have to pack our own fitted sheet when we know we will be staying in a Vistana property.

As for the rest of the resort; Marriott, Westin and Sheraton all seem to compare about the same. Onsite food and beverage is about the same but we tend to notice that Marriott usually has few more options and I give the Marketplaces at Marriott resorts a bit of an edge. There are of course outliers on either side where a resort isn't up to par or where a resort far exceeds. Westin Kierland Villas is like this. The resort and overall feel of the resort more than make up for the shortfalls that exist in the villas (kitchens without ovens and low quality supplies).


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## Dean

alexadeparis said:


> IMHO, Westin exceeds Marriott, Sheraton is a little lower sometimes than Marriott, but usually almost equivalent.


I would concur for the properties I've seen but one should investigate each property they are interested in for any system.


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## DRH90277

dioxide45 said:


> There are certainly some properties that aren't up to snuff. Those tend to be the hotel conversions or older resorts that are not as consistent with the brand. The Mayflower is a hotel conversion. I am not sure why you would say the Myrtle Beach location was not up to standard. I suspect you are talking about OceanWatch? This is one of Marriott's flagship properties with beautiful 2BR villas. The location isn't on the boardwalk of Myrtle Beach, but many like the location in North Myrtle Beach. The Marriott OceanWatch resort is far and above better than Sheraton Broadway Plantation.
> 
> As for comparing the different resorts; Sheraton, Westin & Marriott. We own both Marriott and Vistana and have stayed at over 30 resorts. I would put the Westin resorts on par with most of the top tier Marriotts. The problem with many Westins is the amenities in the units, especially the kitchen is lacking. Poor quality cooking supplies like pots and pans along with a poor selection of cooking utensils is one thing we don't like about the Westin Vacation Club properties. Westin and Sheraton don't even provide any food storage containers in the kitchen. Marriott's have higher quality dinnerware, silverware and pots and pans than both Westin and Sheraton. As for the rest of the unit, Westin is far and above better in the bathroom department. Their villa bathrooms are fantastic. Marriott has an edge for in room entertainment given that most of their units have internet connected television systems that allow you to connect to Prime, YouTube and Netflix without needing to have your own device. I have yet to see that at a Westin or Sheraton property. Westin and Sheraton also use flat sheets on the beds and don't seem to have a proper duvet. We always have to pack our own fitted sheet when we know we will be staying in a Vistana property.
> 
> As for the rest of the resort; Marriott, Westin and Sheraton all seem to compare about the same. Onsite food and beverage is about the same but we tend to notice that Marriott usually has few more options and I give the Marketplaces at Marriott resorts a bit of an edge. There are of course outliers on either side where a resort isn't up to par or where a resort far exceeds. Westin Kierland Villas is like this. The resort and overall feel of the resort more than make up for the shortfalls that exist in the villas (kitchens without ovens and low quality supplies).



Thank you.  I'm glad to hear this.  Some of the items you mentioned are pretty easy to upgrade.  I'm more hopeful now that these properties will enhance our options and experiences.  Of course, it will be nice when we are able to see the point values, etc.  

We will stick with our OceanWatch for Myrtle Beach - it would be a tough sell to the families to move off the beach.


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## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott has an edge for in room entertainment given that most of their units have internet connected television systems that allow you to connect to Prime, YouTube and Netflix without needing to have your own device. I have yet to see that at a Westin or Sheraton property.



While the Marriott "smart" tv functionality is nice to have, it's incomplete for me since it doesn't offer all the streaming channels I use and requires me to login to each. At least it's smart enough (or says it is smart enough) to automatically logout of my account at the end of my stay (when I remember I do this manually). Of course, I rarely use this feature since I travel with a Roku 4K stick which is very small and simply connect it to the TV.

Some of the Vistana resorts make it easy to connect your own device, such as at WKV, which takes a few seconds to connect the HDMI port and has USB power for the device right below the tv.


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## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> While the Marriott "smart" tv functionality is nice to have, it's incomplete for me since it doesn't offer all the streaming channels I use and requires me to login to each. At least it's smart enough (or says it is smart enough) to automatically logout of my account at the end of my stay (when I remember I do this manually). Of course, I rarely use this feature since I travel with a Roku 4K stick which is very small and simply connect it to the TV.
> 
> Some of the Vistana resorts make it easy to connect your own device, such as at WKV, which takes a few seconds to connect the HDMI port and has USB power for the device right below the tv.
> 
> View attachment 60395


I agree, those are pretty handy as we do usually bring along our Firestick in the event we want to watch Hulu, but most often our TV never gets turned on during our stay unless it is to watch Shark Tank. For some reason we seem to watch that when we travel. We tend to consume most video on our computers or iPad. Good that there are multiple options.


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## rcv82

dioxide45 said:


> There are certainly some properties that aren't up to snuff. Those tend to be the hotel conversions or older resorts that are not as consistent with the brand. The Mayflower is a hotel conversion. I am not sure why you would say the Myrtle Beach location was not up to standard. I suspect you are talking about OceanWatch? This is one of Marriott's flagship properties with beautiful 2BR villas. The location isn't on the boardwalk of Myrtle Beach, but many like the location in North Myrtle Beach. The Marriott OceanWatch resort is far and above better than Sheraton Broadway Plantation.
> 
> As for comparing the different resorts; Sheraton, Westin & Marriott. We own both Marriott and Vistana and have stayed at over 30 resorts. I would put the Westin resorts on par with most of the top tier Marriotts. The problem with many Westins is the amenities in the units, especially the kitchen is lacking. Poor quality cooking supplies like pots and pans along with a poor selection of cooking utensils is one thing we don't like about the Westin Vacation Club properties. Westin and Sheraton don't even provide any food storage containers in the kitchen. Marriott's have higher quality dinnerware, silverware and pots and pans than both Westin and Sheraton. As for the rest of the unit, Westin is far and above better in the bathroom department. Their villa bathrooms are fantastic. Marriott has an edge for in room entertainment given that most of their units have internet connected television systems that allow you to connect to Prime, YouTube and Netflix without needing to have your own device. I have yet to see that at a Westin or Sheraton property. Westin and Sheraton also use flat sheets on the beds and don't seem to have a proper duvet. We always have to pack our own fitted sheet when we know we will be staying in a Vistana property.
> 
> As for the rest of the resort; Marriott, Westin and Sheraton all seem to compare about the same. Onsite food and beverage is about the same but we tend to notice that Marriott usually has few more options and I give the Marketplaces at Marriott resorts a bit of an edge. There are of course outliers on either side where a resort isn't up to par or where a resort far exceeds. Westin Kierland Villas is like this. The resort and overall feel of the resort more than make up for the shortfalls that exist in the villas (kitchens without ovens and low quality supplies).



In addition to the bathrooms, another area the Westins and Sheratons have the general advantage is in the small side unit of a lock-off. Many are smaller one bedroom units while others are studios (pretty good sized in most locations). In both cases they have washers/dryers, a full size (or nearly full sized) refrigerator, and a decent limited kitchen with a small dishwasher. 

As was stated, the hotel conversions tend to be more cramped, but still have the same basic features. The Sheraton Steamboat does have some rooms labeled as “hotel rooms”. Those do not have the studio features, but are cheap in terms of points. 


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## Ken555

rcv82 said:


> In addition to the bathrooms, another area the Westins and Sheratons have the general advantage is in the small side unit of a lock-off. Many are smaller one bedroom units while others are studios (pretty good sized in most locations). In both cases they have washers/dryers, a full size (or nearly full sized) refrigerator, and a decent limited kitchen with a small dishwasher.
> 
> As was stated, the hotel conversions tend to be more cramped, but still have the same basic features. The Sheraton Steamboat does have some rooms labeled as “hotel rooms”. Those do not have the studio features, but are cheap in terms of points.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



FWIW, both WDW and WKV have a full size dishwasher in the small 1-bed. Also in regards to the small 1-bed, WDW has a full size refrigerator and WKV has a small (but perfectly adequate) refrigerator. The only kitchen amenity missing in the small unit is an oven. 

The direct comparison for the vast majority of resorts is that of the Westin/Sheraton small 1-bed to the Marriott studio, which is essentially a hotel room. This was the main reason I bought SVN way back when (and that I liked the idea of every large 1-bed at WMH had its own BBQ on the patio…which I believe is no longer true). The large 1-bed Marriott units are great, but I won’t stay in a small unit for more than a single night since it’s just a hotel room with a microwave. Really, Marriott? What a horrible design choice.


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## Dean

Ken555 said:


> FWIW, both WDW and WKV have a full size dishwasher in the small 1-bed. Also in regards to the small 1-bed, WDW has a full size refrigerator and WKV has a small (but perfectly adequate) refrigerator. The only kitchen amenity missing in the small unit is an oven.
> 
> The direct comparison for the vast majority of resorts is that of the Westin/Sheraton small 1-bed to the Marriott studio, which is essentially a hotel room. This was the main reason I bought SVN way back when (and that I liked the idea of every large 1-bed at WMH had its own BBQ on the patio…which I believe is no longer true). The large 1-bed Marriott units are great, but I won’t stay in a small unit for more than a single night since it’s just a hotel room with a microwave. Really, Marriott? What a horrible design choice.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'll point out that any time there's a small/large 1BR option; one should always be cautious when exchanging in to those resorts.  In many cases one will get the smaller BR when exchanging and it may not be obvious up front.  Just another reason to investigate any possible exchange.


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## Ken555

Dean said:


> I'll point out that any time there's a small/large 1BR option; one should always be cautious when exchanging in to those resorts. In many cases one will get the smaller BR when exchanging and it may not be obvious up front. Just another reason to investigate any possible exchange.



To the best of my knowledge, when exchanging via II all the small 1-bed units show “LK” (limited kitchen) vs “K”. This isn’t difficult. BTW, the Marriott studios don’t show any kitchen designation at all at II.


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## SueDonJ

Ken555 said:


> FWIW, both WDW and WKV have a full size dishwasher in the small 1-bed. Also in regards to the small 1-bed, WDW has a full size refrigerator and WKV has a small (but perfectly adequate) refrigerator. The only kitchen amenity missing in the small unit is an oven.
> 
> The direct comparison for the vast majority of resorts is that of the Westin/Sheraton small 1-bed to the Marriott studio, which is essentially a hotel room. This was the main reason I bought SVN way back when (and that I liked the idea of every large 1-bed at WMH had its own BBQ on the patio…which I believe is no longer true). The large 1-bed Marriott units are great, but I won’t stay in a small unit for more than a single night since it’s just a hotel room with a microwave. Really, Marriott? What a horrible design choice.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I agree, studio units without a kitchen don't appeal to me at all for anything other than a quick one-night stay, and even then only if a more-economical hotel room isn't available. But there's definitely a market for them, especially among the people who are using Points (as opposed to Weeks) because it costs so much fewer points to book them. Disney's another system where the studio units are useless for my purposes, at least some of them at judging by the DVC Beach Club studio I once stayed in, and there are probably others.

I'm interested to see the Abound Points Charts for Westin/Sheraton resorts to see the differential between what you call the "small 1BR" and the "large 1BR." I'm wondering if they'll correlate to the differentials between Marriott Studio and 1BR units, or,  if the Westin/Sheraton "small 1BR" will cost more points than a Marriott Studio.


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## Dean

Ken555 said:


> To the best of my knowledge, when exchanging via II all the small 1-bed units show “LK” (limited kitchen) vs “K”. This isn’t difficult. BTW, the Marriott studios don’t show any kitchen designation at all at II.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It's not difficult for an instant exchange but is for an ongoing search unless one can establish parameters that would differentiate the 2.  Regardless I was making a broader point that expands far beyond Vistana.


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## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> I agree, studio units without a kitchen don't appeal to me at all for anything other than a quick one-night stay, and even then only if a more-economical hotel room isn't available. But there's definitely a market for them, especially among the people who are using Points (as opposed to Weeks) because it costs so much fewer points to book them. Disney's another system where the studio units are useless for my purposes, at least some of them at judging by the DVC Beach Club studio I once stayed in, and there are probably others.
> 
> I'm interested to see the Abound Points Charts for Westin/Sheraton resorts to see the differential between what you call the "small 1BR" and the "large 1BR." I'm wondering if they'll correlate to the differentials between Marriott Studio and 1BR units, or,  if the Westin/Sheraton "small 1BR" will cost more points than a Marriott Studio.


We have been staying in Marriott studios more recently and while they aren't ideal they aren't as bad as they could be. For us the biggest issue is no in room ice machine and no in room laundry. I can make do with a small refrigerator and no oven or stovetop. I also don't like that they only have two place settings and a TINY sink. Marriott could easily fix all of these except the laundry either before or during the next round of renovations.

The studio still has one bed, one sofa and one bathroom, so it isn't really any different than a full 1BR except for the square footage. We like them because they are pretty cheap. We were able to score some good deals on ShortStay getaways for less than $13 a night (taxes included) for 18 nights over three bookings.


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## Ken555

Dean said:


> It's not difficult for an instant exchange but is for an ongoing search unless one can establish parameters that would differentiate the 2. Regardless I was making a broader point that expands far beyond Vistana.



Other than Vistana, what network has small and large 1-bed units that have a partial or full kitchen?


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## Eric B

Wyndham & WorldMark


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## Dean

Eric B said:


> Wyndham & WorldMark


And Bluegreen, there are likely others.


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## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> Wyndham & WorldMark


From what I understand though, sometimes the smaller side or studios only have a murphy bed?


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## Ken555

Dean said:


> And Bluegreen, there are likely others.



Good to know, but I’ve never stayed there. I thought this thread was about Marriott and Vistana… 


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## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> Good to know, but I’ve never stayed there. *I thought this thread was about Marriott and Vistana…*
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You asked the question _"Other than Vistana, what network has small and large 1-bed units that have a partial or full kitchen?" _People are giving you answers.


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## VacationForever

Ken555 said:


> Other than Vistana, what network has small and large 1-bed units that have a partial or full kitchen?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



If you are referring to Marriott only, Shadow Ridge Enclaves has 2 BR Deluxe which comprises 1 large BR and 1 small BR with kitchen.


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## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> You asked the question _"Other than Vistana, what network has small and large 1-bed units that have a partial or full kitchen?" _People are giving you answers.



And I thought they would limit themselves to the thread topic. But thanks, as always, for clarifying my posts for me. You do TUG a service.


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## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> And I thought they would limit themselves to the thread topic. But thanks, as always, for clarifying my posts for me. You do TUG a service.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Other than Vistana? If it is limited to only the thread topic, there is only one other than Vistana which is Marriott Vacation Club and that was already answered. It seems several people interpreted it the same way. So the problem seems to be with how you asked the question, not how people interpreted it.


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## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> Other than Vistana? If it is limited to only the thread topic, there is only one other than Vistana which is Marriott Vacation Club and that was already answered. It seems several people interpreted it the same way. So the problem seems to be with how you asked the question, not how people interpreted it.



You need to stop being so critical of my posts. I wrote “Good to know”, and then added I don’t stay there. This is a Marriott/Vistana thread. Enough.


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## Dean

VacationForever said:


> If you are referring to Marriott only, Shadow Ridge Enclaves has 2 BR Deluxe which comprises 1 large BR and 1 small BR with kitchen.


So too would the lock off portion of the 3 BR at Grande Chateau and it wouldn't bet a partial kitchen.  Do any of the Lakeshore units have a smaller 1BR, I was under the impression that some of the units there separated into a 1 BR as the second portion.


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## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> You need to stop being so critical of my posts. I wrote “Good to know”, and then added I don’t stay there. This is a Marriott/Vistana thread. *Enough*.


*Yes sir!!! *Get over yourself. Perhaps you should not be so critical either. I just pointed out how some may have interpreted your post in response to you being critical of them seemingly going off topic even though you were the one to lead it off topic in the first place.


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## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> From what I understand though, sometimes the smaller side or studios only have a murphy bed?



That's correct.  They do provide details on what there is, of course, and often they don't make it into exchanges because of owner/member demand for the loaction.  YMMV.  Apologies for straying off the strict thread topic....

ETA: sometimes there is a Murphy bed in addition to the regular one, too.


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## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> *Yes sir!!! *Get over yourself. Perhaps you should not be so critical either. I just pointed out how some may have interpreted your post in response to you being critical of them seemingly going off topic even though you were the one to lead it off topic in the first place.



You continually criticize and correct my posts. I’m tired of it, and I’m going to start commenting about it. I’m here to learn and provide what info I have, and not be corrected for leaving out a comma or being told what to think. You know a lot about timeshares, and you participate and provide good info in many threads that many of us appreciate, but you also are too critical of many posts. I may be the first to speak up publicly about it, but I know I’m not alone. Please think a little about how your comments will be received before posting, and perhaps give the poster a little benefit of the doubt. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## kozykritter

Ken555 said:


> You continually criticize and correct my posts. I’m tired of it, and I’m going to start commenting about it. I’m here to learn and provide what info I have, and not be corrected for leaving out a comma or being told what to think. You know a lot about timeshares, and you participate and provide good info in many threads that many of us appreciate, but you also are too critical of many posts. I may be the first to speak up publicly about it, but I know I’m not alone. Please think a little about how your comments will be received before posting, and perhaps give the poster a little benefit of the doubt.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thank you for bravely bringing this forth and I agree. I can see the good intentions and commitment from some users here (including him) to making things as accurate as possible and creating a great resource for all yet it feels at times like I'm being nitpicked by them on small details when the gist of what I'm sharing is the important stuff and on point IMHO. It's totally annoying! When it happens I try to remember to take a deep breath and let it go because I didn't come here for a constant tug of war but instead to share in this community and have all of us benefit from doing the same with each other. Differing opinions are part of making this happen but there needs to be room and tolerance for expression that isn't perfect in its form. Otherwise it feels like we're back in school again, constantly being evaluated and corrected. That's no fun


----------



## sharr7

Maybe there's more of a history or I've missed more of the incendiary past posts but this specific example is a weird hill to die on - it's very odd to ask about other timeshare networks, get responses, and then if it wasn't exactly what you meant to be asking, instead of letting it go or clarifying what you meant, to just shut down the conversation like everyone else was wrong. 

I've found both of your contributions helpful over the last few years and it hasn't appeared to a third-party person such as myself that someone was being overly pedantic. Since it's around forever, people can search for old threads, and there's ability to edit or clarify, within the forum medium it is good/helpful to correct any misinformation to an extent. Perhaps what could be seen as nitpicking is an important fact for someone else. Again I didn't look through history of you all's posts specifically so maybe something needed to be said but I'd hate for people to be afraid to clarify or correct or add things to a conversation. Only one user comes to mind when I think of frustratingly antagonistic and it's not either of you lol...

Anyway everyone clearly needs some final official Abound details, all these threads in both Marriott and Vistana forums are STRUGGLING for anything new and true. We've picked the bones clean I think of every detail that can be analyzed...need more meat badly before we all turn on each other


----------



## kozykritter

sharr7 said:


> Maybe there's more of a history or I've missed more of the incendiary past posts but this specific example is a weird hill to die on - it's very odd to ask about other timeshare networks, get responses, and then if it wasn't exactly what you meant to be asking, instead of letting it go or clarifying what you meant, to just shut down the conversation like everyone else was wrong.
> 
> I've found both of your contributions helpful over the last few years and it hasn't appeared to a third-party person such as myself that someone was being overly pedantic. Since it's around forever, people can search for old threads, and there's ability to edit or clarify, within the forum medium it is good/helpful to correct any misinformation to an extent. Perhaps what could be seen as nitpicking is an important fact for someone else. Again I didn't look through history of you all's posts specifically so maybe something needed to be said but I'd hate for people to be afraid to clarify or correct or add things to a conversation. Only one user comes to mind when I think of frustratingly antagonistic and it's not either of you lol...
> 
> Anyway everyone clearly needs some final official Abound details, all these threads in both Marriott and Vistana forums are STRUGGLING for anything new and true. We've picked the bones clean I think of every detail that can be analyzed...need more meat badly before we all turn on each other


As my therapist says, when the cup has been filled to the rim, it only takes one drop to make it overflow! And bystanders are left scratching their heads when it happens since they only saw the one drop go in and the resulting reaction seems out of proportion. So yes, you may have missed the filling of the cup over time in this forum and other ones since you perhaps weren't the one receiving the constant "input" along the way. I'm a pretty easygoing, levelheaded and optimistic glass-half-full kind of person and I truly love the exchange of perspectives here that run the gamut. It's what makes this board a great resource for all of us. I think Ken and I are just asking that the nitpicking of exact details of every post made gets toned down and any user pauses for a moment to ask themselves "Do I really need to respond this way or at all?". It's what I do to check myself and avoid behavior that doesn't add anything of benefit to the community and only serves to make me feel like I'm right. I would wish for the same from others.


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## SueDonJ

kozykritter said:


> As my therapist says, when the cup has been filled to the rim, it only takes one drop to make it overflow! And bystanders are left scratching their heads when it happens since they only saw the one drop go in and the resulting reaction seems out of proportion. So yes, you may have missed the filling of the cup over time since you perhaps weren't the one receiving the constant "input" along the way. I'm a pretty easygoing, levelheaded and optimistic glass-half-full kind of person and I truly love the exchange of perspectives here that run the gamut. It's what makes this board a great resource for all of us. I think Ken and I are just asking that the nitpicking of exact details of every post made gets toned down and the user pauses for a moment to ask themselves "Do I really need to respond this way or at all?". It's what I do to check myself and avoid behavior that doesn't add anything of benefit to the community. I would wish for the same from others.


I think I might be one of the people you're talking about who nitpick every detail down to its smallest particle. Even if you don't think I'm one of them, I've certainly seen a few pointed comments about letting people "agree to disagree" that may have been generated by my posts about the Destination Club/Abound. The thing is, though, it's hard to let some opinions/information stand without challenging it considering that I - and many others - have an excellent working knowledge of the DC! In this thread and the one on the Vistana forum I have certainly learned a whole lot about Vistana timeshares that I never would have bothered to learn if our two systems weren't being integrated, and I appreciate all of the Vistana owners who have taken the time to teach me. I'll admit that having invested that time myself, it's sometimes off-putting to have my contributions dismissed summarily because they seemingly don't fit what a Vistana owner wants from the upcoming integration.

Regardless, we're all free to take what we want and leave what we don't in these conversations. There will come a day when all of this coalesces with whatever Marriott officially releases about Vistana integrations, and I intend to continue to try to help the Vistana owners make their way through their Abound program if the information I have is useful. I can't say enough how difficult it was for us Marriott owners to have the Destination Club dumped on us with no guidance - we floundered around for more than a year trying to interpret the legalese and combat rampant negativity and rumors/misinformation at the same time. None of us should want a repeat of that mess.

*As a moderator *trying to navigate the overall tone of these discussions, I'm following the example set by the Marriott forum moderator prior to and at the DC inception, giving some leeway because it's basic human nature to be fearful of the unknown and fear breeds short tempers and irritation. The particular exchange that precipitated this airing of grievances is over, though. Let's all take a breath and move on to the next one, please.


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## Fasttr

SueDonJ said:


> ... airing of grievances....








Serenity Now....Serenity Now!!!


----------



## kozykritter

SueDonJ said:


> I think I might be one of the people you're talking about who nitpick every detail down to its smallest particle. Even if you don't think I'm one of them, I've certainly seen a few pointed comments about letting people "agree to disagree" that may have been generated by my posts about the Destination Club/Abound. The thing is, though, it's hard to let some opinions/information stand without challenging it considering that I - and many others - have an excellent working knowledge of the DC! In this thread and the one on the Vistana forum I have certainly learned a whole lot about Vistana timeshares that I never would have bothered to learn if our two systems weren't being integrated, and I appreciate all of the Vistana owners who have taken the time to teach me. I'll admit that having invested that time myself, it's sometimes off-putting to have my contributions dismissed summarily because they seemingly don't fit what a Vistana owner wants from the upcoming integration.
> 
> Regardless, we're all free to take what we want and leave what we don't in these conversations. There will come a day when all of this coalesces with whatever Marriott officially releases about Vistana integrations, and I intend to continue to try to help the Vistana owners make their way through their Abound program if the information I have is useful. I can't say enough how difficult it was for us Marriott owners to have the Destination Club dumped on us with no guidance - we floundered around for more than a year trying to interpret the legalese and combat rampant negativity and rumors/misinformation at the same time. None of us should want a repeat of that mess.
> 
> *As a moderator *trying to navigate the overall tone of these discussions, I'm following the example set by the Marriott forum moderator prior to and at the DC inception, giving some leeway because it's basic human nature to be fearful of the unknown and fear breeds short tempers and irritation. The particular exchange that precipitated this airing of grievances is over, though. Let's all take a breath and move on to the next one, please.


Yes, you were one of the users in my mind when I wrote that. I agree that it's time to move on from this conversation and learn to function better as the big joined family that we have become as a result of this integration. Think The Brady Bunch.


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## jmhpsu93

dioxide45 said:


> *The studio still has one bed, one sofa and one bathroom*, so it isn't really any different than a full 1BR except for the square footage. We like them because they are pretty cheap. We were able to score some good deals on ShortStay getaways for less than $13 a night (taxes included) for *18 nights over three bookings.*


My wife and I love each other dearly but that situation would be recipe for law enforcement involvement, or at the very least a divorce attorney.


----------



## jabberwocky

So back to an integration question. How does it work with MVC when ownerships are transferred to a family member? Do the points from the transferred week also transfer and count towards status for the child/recipient?

Suppose I have enough points for executive level and my parents have an enrolled TS week. If the week was transferred into my name, my understanding is that The week would continue to be enrolled and eligible for DP conversion. Would those points then be able to take me to a higher level (ie presidential) assuming I passed the threshold level?

The reason I’m asking is that I was told in an update that the Vistana weeks I am getting from my parents (both developer purchases) will not be recognized for points if they are transferred to me even though they would be in VSN. Essentially MVC treats family transfers the same as resale (ie the enrolled status doesn’t transfer).

Is this correct?  My understanding was the status/points would transfer for weeks in the existing MVC system if it is family.


----------



## Fasttr

jabberwocky said:


> So back to an integration question. How does it work with MVC when ownerships are transferred to a family member? Do the points from the transferred week also transfer and count towards status for the child/recipient?
> 
> Suppose I have enough points for executive level and my parents have an enrolled TS week. If the week was transferred into my name, my understanding is that The week would continue to be enrolled and eligible for DP conversion. Would those points then be able to take me to a higher level (ie presidential) assuming I passed the threshold level?
> 
> The reason I’m asking is that I was told in an update that the Vistana weeks I am getting from my parents (both developer purchases) will not be recognized for points if they are transferred to me even though they would be in VSN. Essentially MVC treats family transfers the same as resale (ie the enrolled status doesn’t transfer).
> 
> Is this correct?  My understanding was the status/points would transfer for weeks in the existing MVC system if it is family.


MVC allows enrolled weeks to retain enrollability if handed down the direct bloodline (eg. parent to child), but not to/from other family members like from brother to sister, etc.


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## vacationtime1

jabberwocky said:


> So back to an integration question. How does it work with MVC when ownerships are transferred to a family member? Do the points from the transferred week also transfer and count towards status for the child/recipient?
> 
> Suppose I have enough points for executive level and my parents have an enrolled TS week. If the week was transferred into my name, my understanding is that The week would continue to be enrolled and eligible for DP conversion. Would those points then be able to take me to a higher level (ie presidential) assuming I passed the threshold level?
> 
> The reason I’m asking is that I was told in an update that the Vistana weeks I am getting from my parents (both developer purchases) will not be recognized for points if they are transferred to me even though they would be in VSN. Essentially MVC treats family transfers the same as resale (ie the enrolled status doesn’t transfer).
> 
> Is this correct?  My understanding was the status/points would transfer for weeks in the existing MVC system if it is family.


We know what the answer "should" be, but Marriott's answer is going to be whatever Marriott's answer will be.

I wouldn't put much weight on what a salesperson said during an update.  That person had every reason to downplay the value of this potential gift so you still need to buy more points.


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## frank808

Dean said:


> So too would the lock off portion of the 3 BR at Grande Chateau and it wouldn't bet a partial kitchen. Do any of the Lakeshore units have a smaller 1BR, I was under the impression that some of the units there separated into a 1 BR as the second portion.


Yes Lakeshore has a deluxe 2br that can comprises a small 1br and standard 1br. The small 1br side has a kitchen with no stove and a smaller refrigerator (like a Westin Kaanapali studio). Lakeshore small 1br does not have washer and dryer in room. Also the master bedroom has French doors instead of a standard bedroom door. 

I have been looking for a deluxe 2br for many years at Lakeshore. But the price people are asking for it are to high. Also maintenance fees for deluxe 2br is pretty high at Lakeshore.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## rickxylon

Fasttr said:


> MVC allows enrolled weeks to retain enrollability if handed down the direct bloodline (parent to child), but not to/from other family members like from brother to sister, etc.


This is also true for transfers to grandchildren.


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## jabberwocky

vacationtime1 said:


> We know what the answer "should" be, but Marriott's answer is going to be whatever Marriott's answer will be.
> 
> I wouldn't put much weight on what a salesperson said during an update.  That person had every reason to downplay the value of this potential gift so you still need to buy more points.


Thanks. I think a lot of it was blowing smoke trying to get me to buy “today”. Basically the Westin Flex offer they made comes out to the equivalent of $13.89/DP assuming a conversion rate of 28.8. From what I’ve read this isn’t really that great of a deal, and certainly not “30% below Marriott prices”.

I’ll take my chances that my parents will be treated as developer when they transfer.  If needed, I can always buy the 850 or so points to get me to the presidential level if I want (assuming they will combine Abound points from both systems).


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## jont

Fasttr said:


> View attachment 60566
> 
> 
> Serenity Now....Serenity Now!!!


Insanity later!!!!
Stay away from my computers.


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## curbysplace

jabberwocky said:


> So back to an integration question. How does it work with MVC when ownerships are transferred to a family member? Do the points from the transferred week also transfer and count towards status for the child/recipient?
> 
> Suppose I have enough points for executive level and my parents have an enrolled TS week. If the week was transferred into my name, my understanding is that The week would continue to be enrolled and eligible for DP conversion. Would those points then be able to take me to a higher level (ie presidential) assuming I passed the threshold level?
> 
> The reason I’m asking is that I was told in an update that the Vistana weeks I am getting from my parents (both developer purchases) will not be recognized for points if they are transferred to me even though they would be in VSN. Essentially MVC treats family transfers the same as resale (ie the enrolled status doesn’t transfer).
> 
> Is this correct?  My understanding was the status/points would transfer for weeks in the existing MVC system if it is family.



Unless MVCI made a change sometime in the last year the only way a legacy week (deeded week with the ability to be converted annually to points) is if it’s passed down after the death of the owner.


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## rickxylon

curbysplace said:


> Unless MVCI made a change sometime in the last year the only way a legacy week (deeded week with the ability to be converted annually to points) is if it’s passed down after the death of the owner.


Not true. Children and grandchildren can be added to the titles now. I’ve done it several times.


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## aklausing

Does anyone have any current information as to when the Vistana and Westin properties are going to start showing availability in the Destination Points program? When I log into my account the message comes up and just says, "We’re working hard to launch later this summer, so watch for more details in the coming weeks. " 
I guess this might have been the message that's been posted the last several weeks, but for some reason I thought it was supposed to be in July?


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## kozykritter

aklausing said:


> Does anyone have any current information as to when the Vistana and Westin properties are going to start showing availability in the Destination Points program? When I log into my account the message comes up and just says, "We’re working hard to launch later this summer, so watch for more details in the coming weeks. "
> I guess this might have been the message that's been posted the last several weeks, but for some reason I thought it was supposed to be in July?


No firm date announced by Marriott. Everything else is speculation at this point.


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## dioxide45

The date is July 28th, until the 28th is in the past and then we have no other date. It will happen when it happens. As far as I am concerned, the later the better.


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## Red elephant

dioxide45 said:


> The date is July 28th, until the 28th is in the past and then we have no other date. It will happen when it happens. As far as I am concerned, the later the better.


I am told that we have till September to enroll in Abound so that does not give us much time to learn about the program before opting in.


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## dioxide45

Red elephant said:


> I am told that we have till September to enroll in Abound so that does not give us much time to learn about the program before opting in.


I beleive the September date would be just if you want to elect Abound points for 2023 use year. Opting in will likely be an ongoing process and even if you don't decide by September 2023, it wouldn't stop you from electing Abound Club Points for 2024 use year.


----------



## Red elephant

dioxide45 said:


> I beleive the September date would be just if you want to elect Abound points for 2023 use year. Opting in will likely be an ongoing process and even if you don't decide by September 2023, it wouldn't stop you from electing Abound Club Points for 2024 use year.


Yes I am referring to opting in for use in 2023.. That does not give us much time to try and understand this new program if they keep pushing the launch date .


----------



## dioxide45

Red elephant said:


> Yes I am referring to opting in for use in 2023.. That does not give us much time to try and understand this new program if they keep pushing the launch date .


I agree. I suspect conversion will be low in 2023 anyway as a lot of owners have probably already made plans and bookings.


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## Bodie

Here's what I don't understand (amongst many other things).  MVC spent a lot of money adding to their inventory.  I'm assuming this is a debt that will have to be serviced.  Is Abound Club going to entail another fee  -  separate and distinct from Destination Club - so we can access these new properties, etc?  Just tell me what I'm going to get and how much it's going to cost.  Or, is this going to be another MVC exercise in deciphering the Rosetta Stone?


----------



## dioxide45

Bodie said:


> Here's what I don't understand (amongst many other things).  MVC spent a lot of money adding to their inventory.  I'm assuming this is a debt that will have to be serviced.  Is Abound Club going to entail another fee  -  separate and distinct from Destination Club - so we can access these new properties, etc?  Just tell me what I'm going to get and how much it's going to cost.  Or, is this going to be another MVC exercise in deciphering the Rosetta Stone?


From what we understand, there will be no enrollment fee for Vistana owners to join Abound. The benefit that Marriott is hoping for is being able to upsell Vistana owners to buy Abound Trust Points to add to their ownership. If you were disappointed you didn't buy that oceanfront, they will say you only need to buy X more Abound points and you can book oceanfront. People will buy not knowing the challenges of actually finding oceanfront availability. Marriott is banking on selling a larger more collective product to a larter more collective ownership base.

A Marriott owner should not see any additional fees to get access. Though it is possible some Vistana (Westin mainly) resorts may cost more points to book, so they will try to sell Marriott owners more Trust points to be able to book them.


----------



## Dean

Bodie said:


> Here's what I don't understand (amongst many other things).  MVC spent a lot of money adding to their inventory.  I'm assuming this is a debt that will have to be serviced.  Is Abound Club going to entail another fee  -  separate and distinct from Destination Club - so we can access these new properties, etc?  Just tell me what I'm going to get and how much it's going to cost.  Or, is this going to be another MVC exercise in deciphering the Rosetta Stone?


From what I've been able to gather the current start date is 1 August but subject to being pushed back.  I haven't updated the info in a couple of weeks, I'll reach out to see.

What I've been told is that those that are qualified under the other programs will remain so with a conversion factor to equate the various systems.  The unknown seems to be the mandatory resorts that were resale.  The rest can enroll.  As I understand it, it's a fee then an additional fee for each contract/week but no extra points are included.  Others likely have more specific information about this and it's been reported here as well.


----------



## OSUM12

I'm new to this forum, I came across it this weekend when doing some research after an owners update I attended.  My husband and I purchased a week at Sheraton Vistana Villages directly from Sheraton back in 2005. My husband travels a lot for work, or at least did prior to Covid, and the points from our credit card accumulation along with our weekly timeshare always allowed plenty of vacations for our family with minimal out of pocket expenses.  Over the last 15 years it's been very easy to bank our options and book at other resorts through Vistana, we have never had a problem with availability.  This past week we were in Orlando at our home resort and I asked to attend a presentation about the new program, we both wanted to understand how it worked, when it would be launched, how our week would be integrated, etc....We were both very excited to have access to new resorts that previously weren't on the program (I understand I could have banked in the past with Interval and booked the Marriott resorts, but it was always just easiest to work within the Vistana network).

In a nutshell, this is what we were told during what turned out to be a 2.5 hour presentation.  He said that the new program was expected to launch in August or September.   We were told that since we owned a fixed week and never integrated to the Flex program, that we would not be able to join the Abound program.  I asked if I could join for a fee and to have our week valued at some sort of conversion rate, the answer was no. He said we had two options, the first was to buy more flex options at $20k for 51,700 options or $30k for 81,000 options.  This would put us into the Abound program as well as give us lifetime platinum status and the ability to book any resort in the program 12 months out.  The second option was to do nothing and not be able to join Abound.  He said once Abound went live, they were completely doing away with the Vistana site and our week would be integrated with Interval International and we would only be able to book our home resort 12 months out and non-home resorts 8 months out (which is what it is now).  However, he said that 97% of owners had already committed and paid the extra $$ to be a part of the Abound network, therefore, that inventory would likely never go to Interval and we wouldn't have access to them.  He said it would be harder for us to book outside our home resort if we were a part of Interval.  I asked him about a quote from Lori Gustafson at the Marriott Worldwide Investor Day on June 16th where she said "if Sheraton owners wanted to avail themselves of the Abound opportunity that it was additive and there would be no incremental cost to an owner".  His answer was that this was only the case for owners that had converted to the Flex program years back.  To me an owner is an owner, especially if we bought direct and not on the resale market.  He never even talked about how the new program would work, it was really just a sales pitch to buy more options.

As people who really enjoy the flexibility of the program and vacationing at various resorts throughout the network, we said we would buy the 51,700 options but had to come in the next day to fill out the paperwork and sign since we had time-sensitive plans.  They allowed us to go with the plan of coming in the next morning.  Our fear was we would be left for dead in Interval and vacationing in Orlando for the rest of our lives (no offense to Orlando).  The entire day it nagged at me and I spend hours out of my vacation looking on various sites and doing research.  It seems there aren't official guidelines listed anywhere and that everyone is getting different information.  My gut told me not to do it and I canceled the meeting and told them we weren't purchasing.  It also rubs me the wrong way that I have been a dues paying owner for 17 years and they are not going to let me into the "club" unless I pay another $20-30k.  My husband and I are just going to sit tight and see what actually happens when the program officially rolls out.


----------



## Bodie

Dean said:


> From what I've been able to gather the current start date is 1 August but subject to being pushed back.  I haven't updated the info in a couple of weeks, I'll reach out to see.
> 
> What I've been told is that those that are qualified under the other programs will remain so with a conversion factor to equate the various systems.  The unknown seems to be the mandatory resorts that were resale.  The rest can enroll.  As I understand it, it's a fee then an additional fee for each contract/week but no extra points are included.  Others likely have more specific information about this and it's been reported here as well.


Thank you for the info.


----------



## Bodie

Dean said:


> From what I've been able to gather the current start date is 1 August but subject to being pushed back.  I haven't updated the info in a couple of weeks, I'll reach out to see.
> 
> What I've been told is that those that are qualified under the other programs will remain so with a conversion factor to equate the various systems.  The unknown seems to
> 
> 
> dioxide45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> From what we understand, there will be no enrollment fee for Vistana owners to join Abound. The benefit that Marriott is hoping for is being able to upsell Vistana owners to buy Abound Trust Points to add to their ownership. If you were disappointed you didn't buy that oceanfront, they will say you only need to buy X more Abound points and you can book oceanfront. People will buy not knowing the challenges of actually finding oceanfront availability. Marriott is banking on selling a larger more collective product to a larter more collective ownership base.
> 
> A Marriott owner should not see any additional fees to get access. Though it is possible some Vistana (Westin mainly) resorts may cost more points to book, so they will try to sell Marriott owners more Trust points to be able to book them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> be the mandatory resorts that were resale.  The rest can enroll.  As I understand it, it's a fee then an additional fee for each contract/week but no extra points are included.  Others likely have more specific information about this and it's been reported here as well.
Click to expand...


----------



## Bodie

Thank you for the info.


----------



## VacationForever

OSUM12 said:


> I'm new to this forum, I came across it this weekend when doing some research after an owners update I attended.  My husband and I purchased a week at Sheraton Vistana Villages directly from Sheraton back in 2005. My husband travels a lot for work, or at least did prior to Covid, and the points from our credit card accumulation along with our weekly timeshare always allowed plenty of vacations for our family with minimal out of pocket expenses.  Over the last 15 years it's been very easy to bank our options and book at other resorts through Vistana, we have never had a problem with availability.  This past week we were in Orlando at our home resort and I asked to attend a presentation based on the new program, we both wanted to understand how it work, when it would be launched, how our week would be integrated, etc....We were both very excited to have access to new resorts that previously weren't on the program (I understand I could have banked in the past with Interval and booked the Marriott resorts, but it was always just easiest to work within the Vistana network).
> 
> In a nutshell, this is what we were told during what turned out to be a 2.5 hour presentation.  He said that the new program was expected to launch in August or September.   We were told that since we owned a fixed week and never integrated to the Flex program, that we would not be able to join the Abound program.  I asked if I could join for a fee and to have our week valued at some sort of conversion rate, the answer was no. He said we had two options, the first was to buy more flex options at $20k for 51,700 options or $30k for 81,000 options.  This would put us into the Abound program as well as give us lifetime platinum status and the ability to book any resort in the program 12 months out.  The second option was to do nothing and not be able to join Abound.  He said once Abound went live, they were completely doing away with the Vistana site and our week would be integrated with Interval International and we would only be able to book our home resort 12 months out and non-home resorts 8 months out (which is what it is now).  However, he said that 97% of owners had already committed and paid the extra $$ to be a part of the Abound network, therefore, that inventory would likely never go to Interval we wouldn't have access to them.  He said it would be harder for us to book outside our home resort if we were a part of Interval.  I asked him about a quote from Lori Gustafson at the Marriott Worldwide Investor Day on June 16th where she said "if Sheraton owners wanted to avail themselves of the Abound opportunity that it was additive and there would be no incremental cost to an owner".  His answer was that this was only the case for owners that had converted to the Flex program years back.  To me an owner is an owner, especially if we bought direct and not on the resale market.  He never even talked about how the new program would work, it was really just a sales pitch to buy more options.
> 
> As people who really enjoy the flexibility of the program and vacationing at various resorts throughout the network, we said we would buy the 51,700 options but had to come in the next day to fill out the paperwork and sign since we had time-sensitive plans.  They allowed us to go with the plan of coming in the next morning.  Our fear was we would be left for dead in Interval and vacationing in Orlando for the rest of our lives (no offense to Orlando).  The entire day it nagged at me and I spend time out of my vacation looking on various sites and doing research.  It seems there arent' guidelines listed anywhere and that everyone is getting different information.  My gut told me not to do it and I canceled the meeting and told them we weren't purchasing.  It also rubs me the wrong way that I have been a dues paying owner for 17 years and they are not going to let me into the "club" unless I pay another $20-30k.  My husband and I are just going to sit tight and see what actually happens when the program officially rolls out.


The saleperson was lying.  You will be able to join the Abound program since you already own a developer direct purchase timeshare.


----------



## kozykritter

OSUM12 said:


> I'm new to this forum, I came across it this weekend when doing some research after an owners update I attended.  My husband and I purchased a week at Sheraton Vistana Villages directly from Sheraton back in 2005. My husband travels a lot for work, or at least did prior to Covid, and the points from our credit card accumulation along with our weekly timeshare always allowed plenty of vacations for our family with minimal out of pocket expenses.  Over the last 15 years it's been very easy to bank our options and book at other resorts through Vistana, we have never had a problem with availability.  This past week we were in Orlando at our home resort and I asked to attend a presentation based on the new program, we both wanted to understand how it work, when it would be launched, how our week would be integrated, etc....We were both very excited to have access to new resorts that previously weren't on the program (I understand I could have banked in the past with Interval and booked the Marriott resorts, but it was always just easiest to work within the Vistana network).
> 
> In a nutshell, this is what we were told during what turned out to be a 2.5 hour presentation.  He said that the new program was expected to launch in August or September.   We were told that since we owned a fixed week and never integrated to the Flex program, that we would not be able to join the Abound program.  I asked if I could join for a fee and to have our week valued at some sort of conversion rate, the answer was no. He said we had two options, the first was to buy more flex options at $20k for 51,700 options or $30k for 81,000 options.  This would put us into the Abound program as well as give us lifetime platinum status and the ability to book any resort in the program 12 months out.  The second option was to do nothing and not be able to join Abound.  He said once Abound went live, they were completely doing away with the Vistana site and our week would be integrated with Interval International and we would only be able to book our home resort 12 months out and non-home resorts 8 months out (which is what it is now).  However, he said that 97% of owners had already committed and paid the extra $$ to be a part of the Abound network, therefore, that inventory would likely never go to Interval we wouldn't have access to them.  He said it would be harder for us to book outside our home resort if we were a part of Interval.  I asked him about a quote from Lori Gustafson at the Marriott Worldwide Investor Day on June 16th where she said "if Sheraton owners wanted to avail themselves of the Abound opportunity that it was additive and there would be no incremental cost to an owner".  His answer was that this was only the case for owners that had converted to the Flex program years back.  To me an owner is an owner, especially if we bought direct and not on the resale market.  He never even talked about how the new program would work, it was really just a sales pitch to buy more options.
> 
> As people who really enjoy the flexibility of the program and vacationing at various resorts throughout the network, we said we would buy the 51,700 options but had to come in the next day to fill out the paperwork and sign since we had time-sensitive plans.  They allowed us to go with the plan of coming in the next morning.  Our fear was we would be left for dead in Interval and vacationing in Orlando for the rest of our lives (no offense to Orlando).  The entire day it nagged at me and I spend time out of my vacation looking on various sites and doing research.  It seems there arent' guidelines listed anywhere and that everyone is getting different information.  My gut told me not to do it and I canceled the meeting and told them we weren't purchasing.  It also rubs me the wrong way that I have been a dues paying owner for 17 years and they are not going to let me into the "club" unless I pay another $20-30k.  My husband and I are just going to sit tight and see what actually happens when the program officially rolls out.


The only word I can find in my head to describe that salesman's behavior is reprehensible. Seriously, how do people like that live with themselves? So glad you listened to your gut! Soon you will be enjoying Abound if you wish, in spite of the lies you were told.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> The only word I can find in my head to describe that salesman's behavior is reprehensible. Seriously, how do people like that live with themselves? So glad you listen to your gut! Soon you will be enjoying Abound if you wish, in spite of the lies you were told.


Vistana Villages has been some of the worst sales experiences we have had. I have over heard many conversations while there too and the lies fly off their tongues with great ease.


----------



## Dean

Dean said:


> From what I've been able to gather the current start date is 1 August but subject to being pushed back.  I haven't updated the info in a couple of weeks, I'll reach out to see.
> 
> What I've been told is that those that are qualified under the other programs will remain so with a conversion factor to equate the various systems.  The unknown seems to be the mandatory resorts that were resale.  The rest can enroll.  As I understand it, it's a fee then an additional fee for each contract/week but no extra points are included.  Others likely have more specific information about this and it's been reported here as well.


I did reach out and the current start date is still 1 August but until it actually happens, we'll have to see.  My guess is it'll come down to whether things actually work when they flip the switch on the computer change over.


----------



## kozykritter

Dean said:


> I did reach out and the current start date is still 1 August but until it actually happens, we'll have to see.  My guess is it'll come down to whether things actually work when they flip the switch on the computer change over.


Even if they can't flip the switch on on August 1st, it would be nice if they would release on that date all the details of what is going to happen, even if it is happening later than planned.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> Even if they can't flip the switch on on August 1st, it would be nice if they would release on that date all the details of what is going to happen, even if it is happening later than planned.


Once they do that, the sales staff can no longer sell more timeshare under questionable tactics and nebulous information


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> Once they do that, the sales staff can no longer sell more timeshare under questionable tactics and nebulous information


True but then they could actually have a compelling case to sell to certain owners in an honest way. I know, dare to dream


----------



## dsmrp

OSUM12 said:


> I'm new to this forum, I came across it this weekend when doing some research after an owners update I attended.  My husband and I purchased a week at Sheraton Vistana Villages directly from Sheraton back in 2005. My husband travels a lot for work, or at least did prior to Covid, and the points from our credit card accumulation along with our weekly timeshare always allowed plenty of vacations for our family with minimal out of pocket expenses.  Over the last 15 years it's been very easy to bank our options and book at other resorts through Vistana, we have never had a problem with availability.  This past week we were in Orlando at our home resort and I asked to attend a presentation about the new program, we both wanted to understand how it worked, when it would be launched, how our week would be integrated, etc....We were both very excited to have access to new resorts that previously weren't on the program (I understand I could have banked in the past with Interval and booked the Marriott resorts, but it was always just easiest to work within the Vistana network).
> 
> In a nutshell, this is what we were told during what turned out to be a 2.5 hour presentation.  He said that the new program was expected to launch in August or September.   We were told that since we owned a fixed week and never integrated to the Flex program, that we would not be able to join the Abound program.  I asked if I could join for a fee and to have our week valued at some sort of conversion rate, the answer was no. He said we had two options, the first was to buy more flex options at $20k for 51,700 options or $30k for 81,000 options.  This would put us into the Abound program as well as give us lifetime platinum status and the ability to book any resort in the program 12 months out.  The second option was to do nothing and not be able to join Abound.  He said once Abound went live, they were completely doing away with the Vistana site and our week would be integrated with Interval International and we would only be able to book our home resort 12 months out and non-home resorts 8 months out (which is what it is now).  However, he said that 97% of owners had already committed and paid the extra $$ to be a part of the Abound network, therefore, that inventory would likely never go to Interval and we wouldn't have access to them.  He said it would be harder for us to book outside our home resort if we were a part of Interval.  I asked him about a quote from Lori Gustafson at the Marriott Worldwide Investor Day on June 16th where she said "if Sheraton owners wanted to avail themselves of the Abound opportunity that it was additive and there would be no incremental cost to an owner".  His answer was that this was only the case for owners that had converted to the Flex program years back.  To me an owner is an owner, especially if we bought direct and not on the resale market.  He never even talked about how the new program would work, it was really just a sales pitch to buy more options.
> 
> As people who really enjoy the flexibility of the program and vacationing at various resorts throughout the network, we said we would buy the 51,700 options but had to come in the next day to fill out the paperwork and sign since we had time-sensitive plans.  They allowed us to go with the plan of coming in the next morning.  Our fear was we would be left for dead in Interval and vacationing in Orlando for the rest of our lives (no offense to Orlando).  The entire day it nagged at me and I spend hours out of my vacation looking on various sites and doing research.  It seems there aren't official guidelines listed anywhere and that everyone is getting different information.  My gut told me not to do it and I canceled the meeting and told them we weren't purchasing.  It also rubs me the wrong way that I have been a dues paying owner for 17 years and they are not going to let me into the "club" unless I pay another $20-30k.  My husband and I are just going to sit tight and see what actually happens when the program officially rolls out.


Yes your salesperson was lying. I have a fixed week too, but at Vkistana resort SVR, that was retro-ed into the network.  My salesperson at SMV briefly indicated my week would be eligible for Abound program, along with my direct week purchase, and told me the conversion pt amount.  Orlando resorts get around 2500-2600 pts; not so much as others because Orlando is overbuilt and they are comparing to the Marriott Orlando resorts.
Still it is more than I thought we'd get.  My fixed week is valued 150 pts less than my float week, even tho' it's a better season.


----------



## Luvtoride

I’m attending a sales presentation on Thursday 7/28 at the Marriott Aruba Surf Club. This is pretty close to the unofficial Aug 1 integration date mentioned in this thread. If there is anything you want me to try to find out, let me know. 
We are Chairmans level and my purpose for going this time was to find out about the integration of the Sheraton and Westin resorts into the MVC program (or Abound if that’s what the new combined club will be called). I would like to be able to use my DC points to go to Cancun. We will see if they can answer that question for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DanCali

OSUM12 said:


> I'm new to this forum, I came across it this weekend when doing some research after an owners update I attended.  My husband and I purchased a week at Sheraton Vistana Villages directly from Sheraton back in 2005. My husband travels a lot for work, or at least did prior to Covid, and the points from our credit card accumulation along with our weekly timeshare always allowed plenty of vacations for our family with minimal out of pocket expenses.  Over the last 15 years it's been very easy to bank our options and book at other resorts through Vistana, we have never had a problem with availability.  This past week we were in Orlando at our home resort and I asked to attend a presentation about the new program, we both wanted to understand how it worked, when it would be launched, how our week would be integrated, etc....We were both very excited to have access to new resorts that previously weren't on the program (I understand I could have banked in the past with Interval and booked the Marriott resorts, but it was always just easiest to work within the Vistana network).
> 
> In a nutshell, this is what we were told during what turned out to be a 2.5 hour presentation.  He said that the new program was expected to launch in August or September.   We were told that since we owned a fixed week and never integrated to the Flex program, that we would not be able to join the Abound program.  I asked if I could join for a fee and to have our week valued at some sort of conversion rate, the answer was no. He said we had two options, the first was to buy more flex options at $20k for 51,700 options or $30k for 81,000 options.  This would put us into the Abound program as well as give us lifetime platinum status and the ability to book any resort in the program 12 months out.  The second option was to do nothing and not be able to join Abound.  He said once Abound went live, they were completely doing away with the Vistana site and our week would be integrated with Interval International and we would only be able to book our home resort 12 months out and non-home resorts 8 months out (which is what it is now).  However, he said that 97% of owners had already committed and paid the extra $$ to be a part of the Abound network, therefore, that inventory would likely never go to Interval and we wouldn't have access to them.  He said it would be harder for us to book outside our home resort if we were a part of Interval.  I asked him about a quote from Lori Gustafson at the Marriott Worldwide Investor Day on June 16th where she said "if Sheraton owners wanted to avail themselves of the Abound opportunity that it was additive and there would be no incremental cost to an owner".  His answer was that this was only the case for owners that had converted to the Flex program years back.  To me an owner is an owner, especially if we bought direct and not on the resale market.  He never even talked about how the new program would work, it was really just a sales pitch to buy more options.
> 
> As people who really enjoy the flexibility of the program and vacationing at various resorts throughout the network, we said we would buy the 51,700 options but had to come in the next day to fill out the paperwork and sign since we had time-sensitive plans.  They allowed us to go with the plan of coming in the next morning.  Our fear was we would be left for dead in Interval and vacationing in Orlando for the rest of our lives (no offense to Orlando).  The entire day it nagged at me and I spend hours out of my vacation looking on various sites and doing research.  It seems there aren't official guidelines listed anywhere and that everyone is getting different information.  My gut told me not to do it and I canceled the meeting and told them we weren't purchasing.  It also rubs me the wrong way that I have been a dues paying owner for 17 years and they are not going to let me into the "club" unless I pay another $20-30k.  My husband and I are just going to sit tight and see what actually happens when the program officially rolls out.



If there was a "Wall of Shame" on TUG reserved for the most reprehensible and dishonest salespeople, this guy would be #1. I too have been through 2.5 hours of button pushing mixed with lies that turn into a 2-day nagging feeling and a ruined vacation (That's when we found TUG and saved $60K...). I seriously wish you'd out him out by name and that he got fired by MVC. The unfortunate thing is that he's probably a top salesperson and they probably don't care how he does it.

You and your husband dodged a bullet and saved a lot of money you didn't have to spend to get what you want. I just feel so bad for others who fall for these lies. Besides getting people to buy products they don't need that are worth less than 10% what they paid, it reflects extremely poorly on the industry, on MVC, and also on the more honest salespeople who deal with that fallout.

Odds are extremely high you will be allowed into the new program since you have a developer purchase. In future presentations, they will try to get you to buy more points because an Orlando week probably won't get you too far in the new system. Just remember that VSN and Interval will still be around, and you can also rent points from others as you need them at a cost very similar to point maintenance fees.


----------



## sharr7

OSUM12 said:


> However, he said that 97% of owners had already committed and paid the extra $$ to be a part of the Abound network,


My favorite part is this made up statistic. Like in June they had to secure the doors to the sales center because there were so many owners clamoring to come through and throw money at this new program with zero official details or guarantees.

It is pretty reprehensible behavior and you can see how easy it is to get away with it. They make those promises that you'll be "in" with purchase, and when the program launches, lo and behold, you're "in!" Wow! With even a few more points to play around with for your low buy in of tens of thousands of dollars. The very few owners who then catch wind of "they just let me in without Flex" grumble a bit, even fewer try and reach out, and even fewer actually get a chance to directly question sales. And even if they get to that point they'll just gaslight you into thinking you misunderstood something. Or that nothing was set in stone and plans changed pre-launch.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

If I bought the minimum resale DP points for $6000 (?) all-in including junk fees, would that be considered a developer purchase that would qualify my unit because the junk fees were paid to requal?


----------



## VacationForever

CalGalTraveler said:


> If I bought the minimum resale DP points for $6000 (?) all-in including junk fees, would that be considered a developer purchase that would qualify my unit because the junk fees were paid to requal?


No.  To requalify, you have to buy from MVC.


----------



## Bodie

kozykritter said:


> Even if they can't flip the switch on on August 1st, it would be nice if they would release on that date all the details of what is going to happen, even if it is happening later than planned.


Maybe the MVC sales office in Utah has a better fix on things.  I have found them to be a little more forthright.


----------



## jabberwocky

Luvtoride said:


> I’m attending a sales presentation on Thursday 7/28 at the Marriott Aruba Surf Club. This is pretty close to the unofficial Aug 1 integration date mentioned in this thread. If there is anything you want me to try to find out, let me know.
> We are Chairmans level and my purpose for going this time was to find out about the integration of the Sheraton and Westin resorts into the MVC program (or Abound if that’s what the new combined club will be called). I would like to be able to use my DC points to go to Cancun. We will see if they can answer that question for me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Since you are interested in Cancun, maybe ask how many points would be required for the Westin Lagunamar, March 25-April 2 next year.  I'd be curious to see how things compare to the Vistana SO equivalent cost.


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> Since you are interested in Cancun, maybe ask how many points would be required for the Westin Lagunamar, March 25-April 2 next year.  I'd be curious to see how things compare to the Vistana SO equivalent cost.


I can tell you that. They gave me a book of Westin point charts when I bought my 1K trust points last month. 2700 studio, 3900 1 Bed, 5900 2 Bed.


----------



## jabberwocky

kozykritter said:


> I can tell you that. They gave me a book of Westin point charts when I bought my 1K trust points last month. 2700 studio, 3900 1 Bed, 5900 2 Bed.


I didn’t know they were giving that out. Do they have different values for Oceanside vs regular units at Lagunamar - or are they all the same value like they are in VSN?


----------



## kozykritter

Bodie said:


> Maybe the MVC sales office in Utah has a better fix on things.  I have found them to be a little more forthright.


That is where I made my recent purchase so I'm connected to the sales director there and they have very few details of how it will work. He said no firm date yet for launch but he was told that they would be moving over Vistana inventory at the end of the month (July). This inventory is likely unsold, foreclosed, deedbacks, etc since nobody on the Vistana side will be enrolling and electing points for their ownership until it all launches.


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> I didn’t know they were giving that out. Do they have different values for Oceanside vs regular units at Lagunamar - or are they all the same value like they are in VSN?


No separate category. Yes they hand out a booklet that has point charts for all the Westin properties plus Harborside. I asked if there was one for Sheraton and they told me they don't have one but I heard from another purchaser that they received one.


----------



## Red elephant

kozykritter said:


> I can tell you that. They gave me a book of Westin point charts when I bought my 1K trust points last month. 2700 studio, 3900 1 Bed, 5900 2 Bed.


Wow!! I used to go to Lagunamar with my SVV and stay in a premium 1 bedroom and with points that cannot happen.


----------



## Red elephant

kozykritter said:


> No separate category. Yes they hand out a booklet that has point charts for all the Westin properties plus Harborside. I asked if there was one for Sheraton and they told me they don't have one but I heard from another purchaser that they received one.


Can you post the points for Harborside please? I thought they had not figured that out yet.


----------



## kozykritter

Red elephant said:


> Can you post the points for Harborside please? I thought they had not figured that out yet.


They have the point sheets for both Harborside and Riverfront set along with a disclaimer that they won't be participating until 2024 at the earliest. I have scanned the entire booklet and will post shortly.


----------



## Bodie

DanCali said:


> If there was a "Wall of Shame" on TUG reserved for the most reprehensible and dishonest salespeople, this guy would be #1. I too have been through 2.5 hours of button pushing mixed with lies that turn into a 2-day nagging feeling and a ruined vacation (That's when we found TUG and saved $60K...). I seriously wish you'd out him out by name and that he got fired by MVC. The unfortunate thing is that he's probably a top salesperson and they probably don't care how he does it.
> 
> You and your husband dodged a bullet and saved a lot of money you didn't have to spend to get what you want. I just feel so bad for others who fall for these lies. Besides getting people to buy products they don't need that are worth less than 10% what they paid, it reflects extremely poorly on the industry, on MVC, and also on the more honest salespeople who deal with that fallout.
> 
> Odds are extremely high you will be allowed into the new program since you have a developer purchase. In future presentations, they will try to get you to buy more points because an Orlando week probably won't get you too far in the new system. Just remember that VSN and Interval will still be around, and you can also rent points from others as you need them at a cost very similar to point maintenance fees.





DanCali said:


> If there was a "Wall of Shame" on TUG reserved for the most reprehensible and dishonest salespeople, this guy would be #1. I too have been through 2.5 hours of button pushing mixed with lies that turn into a 2-day nagging feeling and a ruined vacation (That's when we found TUG and saved $60K...). I seriously wish you'd out him out by name and that he got fired by MVC. The unfortunate thing is that he's probably a top salesperson and they probably don't care how he does it.
> 
> You and your husband dodged a bullet and saved a lot of money you didn't have to spend to get what you want. I just feel so bad for others who fall for these lies. Besides getting people to buy products they don't need that are worth less than 10% what they paid, it reflects extremely poorly on the industry, on MVC, and also on the more honest salespeople who deal with that fallout.
> 
> Odds are extremely high you will be allowed into the new program since you have a developer purchase. In future presentations, they will try to get you to buy more points because an Orlando week probably won't get you too far in the new system. Just remember that VSN and Interval will still be around, and you can also rent points from others as you need them at a cost very similar to point maintenance fees.


----------



## Bodie

DanCali said:


> If there was a "Wall of Shame" on TUG reserved for the most reprehensible and dishonest salespeople, this guy would be #1. I too have been through 2.5 hours of button pushing mixed with lies that turn into a 2-day nagging feeling and a ruined vacation (That's when we found TUG and saved $60K...). I seriously wish you'd out him out by name and that he got fired by MVC. The unfortunate thing is that he's probably a top salesperson and they probably don't care how he does it.
> 
> You and your husband dodged a bullet and saved a lot of money you didn't have to spend to get what you want. I just feel so bad for others who fall for these lies. Besides getting people to buy products they don't need that are worth less than 10% what they paid, it reflects extremely poorly on the industry, on MVC, and also on the more honest salespeople who deal with that fallout.
> 
> Odds are extremely high you will be allowed into the new program since you have a developer purchase. In future presentations, they will try to get you to buy more points because an Orlando week probably won't get you too far in the new system. Just remember that VSN and Interval will still be around, and you can also rent points from others as you need them at a cost very similar to point maintenance fee
> 
> 
> DanCali said:
> 
> 
> 
> If there was a "Wall of Shame" on TUG reserved for the most reprehensible and dishonest salespeople, this guy would be #1. I too have been through 2.5 hours of button pushing mixed with lies that turn into a 2-day nagging feeling and a ruined vacation (That's when we found TUG and saved $60K...). I seriously wish you'd out him out by name and that he got fired by MVC. The unfortunate thing is that he's probably a top salesperson and they probably don't care how he does it.
> 
> You and your husband dodged a bullet and saved a lot of money you didn't have to spend to get what you want. I just feel so bad for others who fall for these lies. Besides getting people to buy products they don't need that are worth less than 10% what they paid, it reflects extremely poorly on the industry, on MVC, and also on the more honest salespeople who deal with that fallout.
> 
> Odds are extremely high you will be allowed into the new program since you have a developer purchase. In future presentations, they will try to get you to buy more points because an Orlando week probably won't get you too far in the new system. Just remember that VSN and Interval will still be around, and you can also rent points from others as you need them at a cost very similar to point maintenance fees.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "He's probably a top salesperson and they probably don't care how he does it."
> 
> Several years ago we went to a sales presentation at Frenchman's Cove to see if we wanted to add DC points.  The salesperson missed a few lessons in charm school.  We found him to be a curt, impatient bully.  Needless to say we declined the "offer."  We subsequently found out from the sales rep we had previously purchased points from that there had been a lot of complaints but because he was a top producer - in excess of $2,000,000 a year - MVC wasn't going to touch him.
Click to expand...


----------



## kozykritter

As promised, here are the Westin and Harborside 2023 charts for using DP as of when I made my purchase on June 11th (likely still the same but who knows). I had to significantly compress the file to meet upload size limits so it turned a bit fuzzy but still legible. Happy to share it because there is no language in it prohibiting such and they are handing them out to buyers with no disclaimers about use.

The last page has all the disclaimers about point levels and the bit about Harborside and Riverfront not being included until at least 2024, including their owners not able to enroll/elect points for those ownerships until then.


----------



## kyaustin

Looks like something is indeed coming....

*PARDON OUR DUST*
*Your Owner website will be offline starting 12:30 a.m. Eastern Time on August 1, 2022, for a scheduled system update. We expect the website to be unavailable for approximately 15 hours.*
There continues to be many behind-the-scene improvements as we bring together multiple vacation options for you to explore and enjoy. This important update will enhance your vacation planning and online experience.
Thank you for your patience during
this extended outage.
_For Weeks Owners, any inventory scheduled to be released on August 1st will be moved to 9:00 a.m. on August 2nd. later._


----------



## kozykritter

kyaustin said:


> Looks like something is indeed coming....
> 
> *PARDON OUR DUST*
> *Your Owner website will be offline starting 12:30 a.m. Eastern Time on August 1, 2022, for a scheduled system update. We expect the website to be unavailable for approximately 15 hours.*
> There continues to be many behind-the-scene improvements as we bring together multiple vacation options for you to explore and enjoy. This important update will enhance your vacation planning and online experience.
> Thank you for your patience during
> this extended outage.
> _For Weeks Owners, any inventory scheduled to be released on August 1st will be moved to 9:00 a.m. on August 2nd. later._


Vistana's website has the same message except for the Weeks Owner inventory bit at the bottom. Things are happening!


----------



## craigc

dioxide45 said:


> The date is July 28th, until the 28th is in the past and then we have no other date. It will happen when it happens. As far as I am concerned, the later the better.


Just back from the Pulse in San Diego, that was the date that I was given also.  2 more days!


----------



## DRH90277

We were at OceanWatch at the end of June and the sales guy had the printed VCP point sheets for individual Vistana resorts.  He expected the point sheets would be posted soon and properties could be reserved for 2023.  Well, nothing yet.  Does anyone have a feel for whether the properties being added upgrade the portfolio.  I looked up the Myrtle Beach property and concluded this would certainly not be any competition for the steller OceanWatch.  

Any insight??


----------



## VacationForever

DRH90277 said:


> We were at OceanWatch at the end of June and the sales guy had the printed VCP point sheets for individual Vistana resorts.  He expected the point sheets would be posted soon and properties could be reserved for 2023.  Well, nothing yet.  Does anyone have a feel for whether the properties being added upgrade the portfolio.  I looked up the Myrtle Beach property and concluded this would certainly not be any competition for the steller OceanWatch.
> 
> Any insight??


Some better and some worse.  Westin Kierland is heads and shoulders above Canyon Villas.  Ocean Watch is far superior to Sheraton Broadway Plantation.  Some are almost similar and can go one way or the other - Desert Springs, Shadow Ridge vs. Westin Mission Hills and Desert Willow.


----------



## jabberwocky

DRH90277 said:


> We were at OceanWatch at the end of June and the sales guy had the printed VCP point sheets for individual Vistana resorts.  He expected the point sheets would be posted soon and properties could be reserved for 2023.  Well, nothing yet.  Does anyone have a feel for whether the properties being added upgrade the portfolio.  I looked up the Myrtle Beach property and concluded this would certainly not be any competition for the steller OceanWatch.
> 
> Any insight??


I’d say that the Mexico resorts that Vistana has are infinitely better than anything currently in the MVC Mexico portfolio.


----------



## Dean

jabberwocky said:


> I’d say that the Mexico resorts that Vistana has are infinitely better than anything currently in the MVC Mexico portfolio.


IMO that's a low bar in more ways than one.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> I’d say that the Mexico resorts that Vistana has are infinitely better than anything currently in the MVC Mexico portfolio.


For sure, since MVC is just sitting on an empty plot of land in Cancun (unless they sold it already).


----------



## Bodie

Why do I think MVC is going to hold something tantalizingly  out of reach than could be “ours” for only……


----------



## californiagirl

jabberwocky said:


> I’d say that the Mexico resorts that Vistana has are infinitely better than anything currently in the MVC Mexico portfolio.


I’m not aware of any MVC resorts in Mexico.  Are you speaking of Marriott hotels and resorts instead?


----------



## jmhpsu93

jabberwocky said:


> I’d say that the Mexico resorts that Vistana has are infinitely better than anything currently in the MVC Mexico portfolio.



I'd say it's more of an undefined number better.


----------



## aklausing

kozykritter said:


> No separate category. Yes they hand out a booklet that has point charts for all the Westin properties plus Harborside. I asked if there was one for Sheraton and they told me they don't have one but I heard from another purchaser that they received one.


Do you happen to have a point chart for the Westin Cape Coral Resort?


----------



## kozykritter

aklausing said:


> Do you happen to have a point chart for the Westin Cape Coral Resort?


Only have charts for Westin timeshare properties within Vistana so unfortunately can't help you with that.


----------



## dioxide45

aklausing said:


> Do you happen to have a point chart for the Westin Cape Coral Resort?


This really isn't a Vistana timeshare property. From what I understand there is a timeshare property colocated with the Westin hotel, but the timeshare technically isn't a Westin nor Vistana resort. It is similar to the Buganvilias resort in Puerto Vallarta. It is located with the Sheraton Buganvilias Resort, but it isn't Vistana.


----------



## californiagirl

dioxide45 said:


> This really isn't a Vistana timeshare property. From what I understand there is a timeshare property colocated with the Westin hotel, but the timeshare technically isn't a Westin nor Vistana resort. It is similar to the Buganvilias resort in Puerto Vallarta. It is located with the Sheraton Buganvilias Resort, but it isn't Vistana.


That too bad this resort isn’t part of Vistana.  It’s a beautiful property.  We stayed there in 2016 in a 3 bedroom unit that we booked through II getaways.  The only downside is the resort is not on a beach.  It is on the bay.  However it’s a short drive to Sanibel and Captiva islands.


----------



## californiagirl




----------



## Luvtoride

jabberwocky said:


> Since you are interested in Cancun, maybe ask how many points would be required for the Westin Lagunamar, March 25-April 2 next year. I'd be curious to see how things compare to the Vistana SO equivalent cost.



I asked and they looked it up for me. 5,500 MVC points for those 8 nights in a 2 bedroom. Not sure how that compares to Vistana. 
Good luck. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Luvtoride

kyaustin said:


> Looks like something is indeed coming....
> 
> *PARDON OUR DUST*
> *Your Owner website will be offline starting 12:30 a.m. Eastern Time on August 1, 2022, for a scheduled system update. We expect the website to be unavailable for approximately 15 hours.*
> There continues to be many behind-the-scene improvements as we bring together multiple vacation options for you to explore and enjoy. This important update will enhance your vacation planning and online experience.
> Thank you for your patience during
> this extended outage.
> _For Weeks Owners, any inventory scheduled to be released on August 1st will be moved to 9:00 a.m. on August 2nd. later._



I just came from a presentation at Aruba Ocean club. They confirmed the 8/1/22 date for Vistana and Sheraton properties to be added to the MVC site for booking directly with points. They had the points calendar/ calculator live on their screen and they gave me examples of points needed for Westin Lagunamar (see my separate response to Jabberwocky above). 
The Hyatt properties will be at a later date (not given), but they showed us the Hyatt properties that will be included. Nothing too exciting as they overlap with many locations that MVC already has a strong presence ie. Orlando and Hawaii. We know someone who stayed at the Bonita Springs, FL Hyatt a few months ago and they said it was very nice. 

Price of points going up in Aug too from the $16.08 retail price now due to the new systems coming in. 

I need to check the ROFR spreadsheet for Aruba Ocean Club as they quoted us a high (Platinum) 2 bedroom here for $49,600 which comes to $11.21 point. I’ve seen these advertised on Red Week (and probably TUG, but I will check for sure) for around $17,000-$20,000 range.
When I told the sales manager I would more likely buy resale, he said it was like buying a Ferrari without wheels…no bells and whistles for enrollment. I reminded him I’m already at Chairman’s level and have all the Bells and Whistle of MVC ownership and would only use the Aruba week to vacation at during high demand seasons. 
They were very respectful of our ownership and time and didn’t draw it out thankfully, other than reminding me that MVC has ROFR. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## GregT

Luvtoride said:


> I just came from a presentation at Aruba Ocean club. They confirmed the 8/1/22 date for Vistana and Sheraton properties to be added to the MVC site for booking directly with points. They had the points calendar/ calculator live on their screen and they gave me examples of points needed for Westin Lagunamar (see my separate response to Jabberwocky above).
> The Hyatt properties will be at a later date (not given), but they showed us the Hyatt properties that will be included. Nothing too exciting as they overlap with many locations that MVC already has a strong presence ie. Orlando and Hawaii. We know someone who stayed at the Bonita Springs, FL Hyatt a few months ago and they said it was very nice.
> 
> Price of points going up in Aug too from the $16.08 retail price now due to the new systems coming in.
> 
> I need to check the ROFR spreadsheet for Aruba Ocean Club as they quoted us a high (Platinum) 2 bedroom here for $49,600 which comes to $11.21 point. I’ve seen these advertised on Red Week (and probably TUG, but I will check for sure) for around $17,000-$20,000 range.
> When I told the sales manager I would more likely buy resale, he said it was like buying a Ferrari without wheels…no bells and whistles for enrollment. I reminded him I’m already at Chairman’s level and have all the Bells and Whistle of MVC ownership and would only use the Aruba week to vacation at during high demand seasons.
> They were very respectful of our ownership and time and didn’t draw it out thankfully, other than reminding me that MVC has ROFR.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That's interesting -- I was under the impression that the Hyatt properties would not be included (and still don't expect them to be....)   I will be curious to see what happens on August 1st (if anything).

Best,

Greg


----------



## jabberwocky

jmhpsu93 said:


> I'd say it's more of an undefined number better.


I guess I should have said approaches infinity in the limit!


----------



## jmhpsu93

Luvtoride said:


> I asked and they looked it up for me. 5,500 MVC points for those 8 nights in a 2 bedroom. Not sure how that compares to Vistana.
> Good luck.
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Bat $#$t crazy.    About $3300 in MFs vs. $2300 if you're using Staroptions (using a 2 BR LO mandatory phase at SVV - you can get the SOs even cheaper), for example.  It's even worse in the slower seasons from what I saw.  

It'll be cheaper to trade into there even accounting for the fact I've never seen a 2 BR available there and I'd need two trades (1 BR and studio).


----------



## jabberwocky

Luvtoride said:


> I asked and they looked it up for me. 5,500 MVC points for those 8 nights in a 2 bedroom. Not sure how that compares to Vistana.
> Good luck.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thanks - I'm trying to reconcile this with the chart posted by @kozykritter in post 615 .  For the 8 days it looks like it would be 5900 (full week) + 1075 (Saturday night) = 6975.  Did they perhaps look at a different set of dates - or is there a discount method I don't know about.

On the Vistana side I was able to book an Oceanside 2BR for 177,725 SO.  With a 28.8:1 conversion ratio for Westin Flex, this would work out to around 6170 DP, or around 12% cheaper.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Thanks - I'm trying to reconcile this with the chart posted by @kozykritter in post 615 .  For the 8 days it looks like it would be 5900 (full week) + 1075 (Saturday night) = 6975.  Did they perhaps look at a different set of dates - or is there a discount method I don't know about.
> 
> On the Vistana side I was able to book an Oceanside 2BR for 177,725 SO.  With a 28.8:1 conversion ratio for Westin Flex, this would work out to around 6170 DP, or around 12% cheaper.


You could look at say a Tuesday to Wednesday reservation to get the eight nights and only have the one set of expensive Fri and Sat nights in there. When you do a Sat to Sun 8 night stay, you have that extra expensive Sat point night instead of a cheaper mid week.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> You could look at say a Tuesday to Wednesday reservation to get the eight nights and only have the one set of expensive Sat and Sun nights in there. When you do a Sat to Sun 8 night stay, you have that extra expensive Sat point night instead of a cheaper mid week.


Alas, I have the kids as my big constraint.  Their spring break starts March 25 and they have to be back in school on April 3rd.  I thought about only doing seven days, but the airfare is the same, so I added the more expensive Saturday night as I've had a few extra points kicking around because of all the covid banking.

If you do have the flexibility, I would definitely set it up to start midweek and avoid the more expensive days (I usually do this in Maui).


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> Alas, I have the kids as my big constraint.  Their spring break starts March 25 and they have to be back in school on April 2nd.  I thought about only doing seven days, but the airfare is the same, so I added the more expensive Saturday night as I've had a few extra points kicking around because of all the covid banking.
> 
> If you do have the flexibility, I would definitely set it up to start midweek and avoid the more expensive days (I usually do this in Maui).


I did looked at the chart you referenced from @kozykritter and I can't see a week in March or April that would cost 5500 let along 8 nights. THe only exception would be after april 14th where a 2BR for eight nights would run 5,700 if you only include one Fri and one Sat night.


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> Thanks - I'm trying to reconcile this with the chart posted by @kozykritter in post 615 .  For the 8 days it looks like it would be 5900 (full week) + 1075 (Saturday night) = 6975.  Did they perhaps look at a different set of dates - or is there a discount method I don't know about.
> 
> On the Vistana side I was able to book an Oceanside 2BR for 177,725 SO.  With a 28.8:1 conversion ratio for Westin Flex, this would work out to around 6170 DP, or around 12% cheaper.


I suppose there is the remote possibility that they changed the points chart since first published and downgraded the amount of points needed. Could happen...seems unlikely


----------



## ndang3

GregT said:


> That's interesting -- I was under the impression that the Hyatt properties would not be included (and still don't expect them to be....)   I will be curious to see what happens on August 1st (if anything).
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


There is a licensing issue with Hyatt hotels preventing them from including Hyatt timeshares into the abound program. Until that contract expires don’t expect to see the Hyatt inventory included.


----------



## kyaustin

ndang3 said:


> There is a licensing issue with Hyatt hotels preventing them from including Hyatt timeshares into the abound program. Until that contract expires don’t expect to see the Hyatt inventory included.



What sort of licensing issue, if you know?


----------



## VacationForever

kyaustin said:


> What sort of licensing issue, if you know?


When Hyatt sold/spun off Hyatt timeshare, there was a 50-year licensing where Hyatt timeshare will continue to use the Hyatt name and pay to Hyatt, the hotel company, license fees to continue to use the name.  This arrangement cannot be terminated unless Marriott Vacation Worldwide wants to go into negotiation and likely would cost MVW hundreds of millions of dollars to do so.


----------



## Luvtoride

VacationForever said:


> When Hyatt sold/spun off Hyatt timeshare, there was a 50-year licensing where Hyatt timeshare will continue to use the Hyatt name and pay to Hyatt, the hotel company, license fees to continue to use the name. This arrangement cannot be terminated unless Marriott Vacation Worldwide wants to go into negotiation and likely would cost MVW hundreds of millions of dollars to do so.



I don’t think that would be an issue to prevent the properties from being included in the program. As long as they don’t intend to rename the properties (as they aren’t renaming the Westin or Vistana properties either).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45

The new date I heard today at a Westin presentation for the cutover of the program is August 7th.


----------



## ndang3

VacationForever said:


> When Hyatt sold/spun off Hyatt timeshare, there was a 50-year licensing where Hyatt timeshare will continue to use the Hyatt name and pay to Hyatt, the hotel company, license fees to continue to use the name.  This arrangement cannot be terminated unless Marriott Vacation Worldwide wants to go into negotiation and likely would cost MVW hundreds of millions of dollars to do so.


How many years left to the 50 year term?


----------



## VacationForever

ndang3 said:


> How many years left to the 50 year term?


It happened when ILG acquired Hyatt timeshare company, about 5 years ago, so 45 years, give or take.


----------



## jabberwocky

Luvtoride said:


> I don’t think that would be an issue to prevent the properties from being included in the program. As long as they don’t intend to rename the properties (as they aren’t renaming the Westin or Vistana properties either).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If I were the CEO of HYATT there is no way I would want anything with my company’s name on it within a MARRIOTT Vacation Club. It would cause confusion and may lead people to think that Hyatt is a Marriott brand.

The only way they get included is if Marriott buys out the contract from Hyatt and gets to put their name on the properties. Or they Hyatt TS owners could always vote to change management company brands.


----------



## dioxide45

jabberwocky said:


> If I were the CEO of HYATT there is no way I would want anything with my company’s name on it within a MARRIOTT Vacation Club. It would cause confusion and may lead people to think that Hyatt is a Marriott brand.
> 
> The only way they get included is if Marriott buys out the contract from Hyatt and gets to put their name on the properties. Or they Hyatt TS owners could always vote to change management company brands.


That is a big sticking point. The license agreement gives HRC access to the World of Hyatt members to market to them the Hyatt timeshare product. Hyatt isn't going to want to have MVC folks marketing to World of Hyatt members to buy Marriott Abound points while at a Marriott timeshare property. Unless Marriott International (hotel company) somehow buys Hyatt, we won't see any integration between Hyatt and MVC.


----------



## TravelTime

kozykritter said:


> I can tell you that. They gave me a book of Westin point charts when I bought my 1K trust points last month. 2700 studio, 3900 1 Bed, 5900 2 Bed.



Can you post the point charts somewhere if you haven’t already?

Oops…I kept reading the thread and I see that you have posted it. That is amazing that you scanned it all and shared it here on TUG! Thank you so very much!


----------



## TravelTime

kozykritter said:


> I can tell you that. They gave me a book of Westin point charts when I bought my 1K trust points last month. 2700 studio, 3900 1 Bed, 5900 2 Bed.



The 2BR is valued at a lot of points. It is in the same range as some of the MVC Hawaii resorts in Oahu/Ko Olina and Kauai. It is surprising they valued it at so many points. Maybe they expect Cancun to be extremely popular so they can use it as a selling point in sales presentations.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> Can you post the point charts somewhere if you haven’t already?
> 
> Oops…I kept reading the thread and I see that you have posted it. That is amazing that you scanned it all and shared it here on TUG! Thank you so very much!


See this post;








						Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana and Marriott Ownerships
					

I did reach out and the current start date is still 1 August but until it actually happens, we'll have to see.  My guess is it'll come down to whether things actually work when they flip the switch on the computer change over.  Even if they can't flip the switch on on August 1st, it would be...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## TravelTime

jabberwocky said:


> I’d say that the Mexico resorts that Vistana has are infinitely better than anything currently in the MVC Mexico portfolio.



I agree since MVC does not have any Mexico resorts in its portfolio!


----------



## GregT

kozykritter said:


> As promised, *here are the Westin and Harborside 2023 charts for using DP* as of when I made my purchase on June 11th (likely still the same but who knows). I had to significantly compress the file to meet upload size limits so it turned a bit fuzzy but still legible. Happy to share it because there is no language in it prohibiting such and they are handing them out to buyers with no disclaimers about use.
> 
> The last page has all the disclaimers about point levels and the bit about Harborside and Riverfront not being included until at least 2024, including their owners not able to enroll/elect points for those ownerships until then.


This is fantastic -- thanks for posting this!!!  Post #621 if someone wants to see the Westin points booklet posted by Kozykritter.

Best,

Greg


----------



## VacationForever

Thanks @kozykritter for the document.  As I have suspected, from this charts I will stick to using VSN for SOs bookings.


----------



## GregT

It is interesting reading the Westin points chart that Kozykritter posted.   My limited understanding prior to this chart was that the Westin points were modestly higher than the points required to stay in a "comparable" Marriott property.  I no longer think this is the case, and see some interesting differences.

I have often thought that Westin Kaanapali and Maui Ocean Club are very comparable properties (with sentimental value being the tie break -- MOC for me   )

Using Presidents Week as a comparator, for WKORV vs. MM1:

2BR OF:   9,975 versus 9,050
2BR OV:   7,400 versus 8,025

It's interesting to me that the 2BR OV is consistently lower at WKORV than MM1, with summer being 7,050 points versus 7,625 to stay in Lahaina Villas.   The 2BR OF at WKORV is consistently higher.  This must be ascribed to perceived demand as their is a limited number of 2BR OV's at Maui Ocean Club but there is much more supply at WKORV.

I don't know their Palm Desert properties but Marriott ascribes greater value to Westin Desert Willow, with Q1 pricing at 4,725 points for a 2BR from late January - April.   Shadow Ridge Enclaves is 4,500 points for the same period, Shadow Ridge is 4,000 -- and Westin Mission Hills is also 4,000.

Interesting.    I will be very curious to track the inventory availability with DC points (and when the reservation is available) if we ever get a new reservation system.

Best,

Greg


----------



## VacationForever

GregT said:


> It is interesting reading the Westin points chart that Kozykritter posted.   My limited understanding prior to this chart was that the Westin points were modestly higher than the points required to stay in a "comparable" Marriott property.  I no longer think this is the case, and see some interesting differences.
> 
> I have often thought that Westin Kaanapali and Maui Ocean Club are very comparable properties (with sentimental value being the tie break -- MOC for me   )
> 
> Using Presidents Week as a comparator, for WKORV vs. MM1:
> 
> 2BR OF:   9,975 versus 9,050
> 2BR OV:   7,400 versus 8,025
> 
> It's interesting to me that the 2BR OV is consistently lower at WKORV than MM1, with summer being 7,050 points versus 7,625 to stay in Lahaina Villas.   The 2BR OF at WKORV is consistently higher.  This must be ascribed to perceived demand as their is a limited number of 2BR OV's at Maui Ocean Club but there is much more supply at WKORV.
> 
> I don't know their Palm Desert properties but Marriott ascribes greater value to Westin Desert Willow, with Q1 pricing at 4,725 points for a 2BR from late January - April.   Shadow Ridge Enclaves is 4,500 points for the same period, Shadow Ridge is 4,000 -- and Westin Mission Hills is also 4,000.
> 
> Interesting.    I will be very curious to track the inventory availability with DC points (and when the reservation is available) if we ever get a new reservation system.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


Similarly, I compared Westin Desert Willow, Westin Mission Hills and Marriott's Desert Springs Villas 1.  We have stayed at all Westin and Marriott's properties and strongly prefer Desert Springs Villas I.  Based on this chart, Desert Willow is more expensive to stay compared to Desert Springs Villas I, and Desert Springs Villas 1 is more expensive than Mission Hills.


----------



## GregT

VacationForever said:


> Thanks @kozykritter for the document.  As I have suspected, from this charts I will stick to using VSN for SOs bookings.



I agree -- and I think alot of people will want to stay with their StarOptions -- but I do think this introduces new booking strategies.    For me, TUGgers know that I think WPORV is a fantastic property. 

I could see the situation where I book WPORV 12 months out using Marriott DC Points.   And then wait to see if WPORV is available with StarOptions 8 months out.

If it is, I book with SOs and cancel my WPORV reservation and get my DC points back.  Someone else will pick up my original WPORV dates with DC Points -- 8 months out..

I don't see this happening alot because it ties up those DC points, but it can definitely be helpful if I'm confident I want to go to WPORV and need specific dates.

Interesting.

Best,

Greg


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Does Abound differentiate the Westins from the North/South and Nanea? Are the points the same?

North has better IV because no units face parking lots. The other two Westin properties run the risk of a parking lot/ or backing shuttle beep view.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> Does Abound differentiate the Westins from the North/South and Nanea? Are the points the same?
> 
> North has better IV because no units face parking lots. The other two Westin properties run the risk of a parking lot/ or backing shuttle beep view.


North and South are different pages in the charts, but after a quick glance, the points all look to be the same between the two.


----------



## aimersyo

kozykritter said:


> No separate category. Yes they hand out a booklet that has point charts for all the Westin properties plus Harborside. I asked if there was one for Sheraton and they told me they don't have one but I heard from another purchaser that they received one.



Wow that's crazy.  I own Westin Flex and if you convert my options to MVC that's roughly 2800, which is the cost to stay in a 1 br for 7 days during spring break, vs 3900.   Seems definitely more expensive to convert to the other side than to stick with your own properties.  I wonder if it will be the same for me to convert to MVC points and stay at a Marriott location.


----------



## Bodie

Is it just me or is anyone else less than impressed by the new inventory?


----------



## californiagirl

As I stated earlier for us the only benefit would be the additIonal resorts in Mexico and Harborside.


----------



## dioxide45

Bodie said:


> Is it just me or is anyone else less than impressed by the new inventory?


Not sure what anyone was expecting. The big timeshare companies all have resorts in most of the same places. So there is a lot of overlap. However, for some locations it will provide more options. Can't book into Maui Ocean Club, you have three more resorts to try for.


----------



## rickxylon

californiagirl said:


> As I stated earlier for us the only benefit would be the additIonal resorts in Mexico and Harborside.


Also St John’s


----------



## ocdb8r

californiagirl said:


> As I stated earlier for us the only benefit would be the additional resorts in Mexico and Harborside.





rickxylon said:


> Also St John’s


Agree that these are likely the main resorts of value to MVC owners.  I also think the Vistana Colorado locations add some good diversity of options for skiers (the Ritz Vail is outrageously priced in points and hard to get into from what I have heard...and the Streamside properties are quite dated - Mountain Valley lodge is the most decent and available MVC option in CO).

However, don't discount the "small 1 bedroom" at most of the continental US Vistana locations.  To me this is big plus over a studio at a comparable MVC location (for just a bit more in points).  You get a unit with a true separate bedroom and living room, full fridge, cooktop and full washer/dryer and a microwave (sometimes with convection feature).  Also valuable for bigger families as when you book a 2-bedroom lockoff at these locations you're getting a large 1 bedroom + a small 1 bedroom, giving you that extra living room to dump the kids in!

Finally, I personally think nothing in the MVC portfolio in AZ beats the Westin Kierland Villas. (edited to add...I guess MVC agrees as looking at the points charts, the sm 1-bed here is often the same price as a full 1-bed at MVC Canyon Villas!  That said, for other continental US locations, the sm 1-bed at Vistana resorts is normally priced just a bit more than a studio at nearby MVC locations).

CA, HI, FL and SC are a toss up, likely down to personal preference or the better unit configuration I mention above.


----------



## kozykritter

aimersyo said:


> Wow that's crazy.  I own Westin Flex and if you convert my options to MVC that's roughly 2800, which is the cost to stay in a 1 br for 7 days during spring break, vs 3900.   Seems definitely more expensive to convert to the other side than to stick with your own properties.  I wonder if it will be the same for me to convert to MVC points and stay at a Marriott location.


I think the philosophy that's been adopted here in regards to this integration is the best benefits will come when you use ownership in one system to stay at properties in another. If you want to stay at Westins, use your Flex. If you want to stay at Marriott properties, convert to DP in Abound or use your Flex options in Interval to exchange. Converting to DP and then booking backwards to Vistana seems like the least desirable option, perhaps one only used in desperation if you can't find inventory you need elsewhere.


----------



## Red elephant

rickxylon said:


> Also St John’s


I will not be depositing my St John would rather rent it out if not using for myself.


----------



## hcarman

VacationForever said:


> Some better and some worse.  Westin Kierland is heads and shoulders above Canyon Villas.  Ocean Watch is far superior to Sheraton Broadway Plantation.  Some are almost similar and can go one way or the other - Desert Springs, Shadow Ridge vs. Westin Mission Hills and Desert Willow.


What do you like better about Kierland than Canyon Villas?  We love Canyon Villas and it is pretty upscale sharing a property with JW.  It is a great location.  We drove by Kierland once but don't remember much about it.  I do remember it is close to some good shopping areas.


----------



## VacationForever

hcarman said:


> What do you like better about Kierland than Canyon Villas?  We love Canyon Villas and it is pretty upscale sharing a property with JW.  It is a great location.  We drove by Kierland once but don't remember much about it.  I do remember it is close to some good shopping areas.


For us long time Vistana and Marriott owners, Canyon Villas is a dump.  The check-in area is very small, very much like Worldmark check-in experience.  The buildings look like old converted condo buildings.   The room we had was dark and dingy. We didn't feel anything luxurious about it.  We also had awful food and service at JW Marriott next door.  The restaurant at the golf course was a little better.  We just never want to go back to Canyon Villas.

Westin Kierland is one of the crown jewels in the Vistana system.  The rooms are very nice and is one of the best Westin properties.  It is next door to the hotel which has great food too.  It is also very close to Kierland Commons and Scottsdale Quarter. One more thing, it is a couple of minutes walk to the golf course and practice facility.


----------



## GregT

hcarman said:


> What do you like better about Kierland than Canyon Villas?  We love Canyon Villas and it is pretty upscale sharing a property with JW.  It is a great location.  We drove by Kierland once but don't remember much about it.  I do remember it is close to some good shopping areas.


I think Canyon Villas and Sheraton Desert Oasis are very comparable properties.   They are good, basic timeshare units that are serviced by a good, basic pool amenity.  I like both and have stayed at both as a base camp for Spring Training, and bought an SDO for cheap because of the spring training access.

I've not stayed at Kierland, but I get the impression from the Vistana board that Kierland is a destination in its own right, in addition to having great access to golf and the adjacent hotel amenity.  I don't view SDO or Canyon Villas as a destination in their own right.   I do hope to stay at Kierland when I'm going out to Phoenix area and looking to stay on property most of the time.

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

To call Canyon Villas a "dump" seems a little bombastic. My definition of a dump would be more akin to some of the motels along 192 with prostitutes and drug deals going down on a regular basis. I beleive Canyon Villas has renovated their villas, so they aren't old or tired. I don't find them anymore dark than the small 1BR at Westin Kierland Villas where the only window is in the bedroom. That said, Canyon Villas has some big drawbacks that make it less desirable than Kierland. It is located in North Phoenix. It is close to the Desert Ridge Mall which has a lot to do, but it seems there are better shopping and dining options in the Scottsdale area where Kierland is located.

Canyon Villas also has only one, effective, pool area. The Lizard Lagoon and Spa Pool are good concepts, but everyone gravitates to the only real pool area at the Canyon Pool. Lizard Lagoon is only 1' deep and outside of some kids playing for a short time, most people want to be in a regular pool. Spa Pool is probably okay in the winter when it is cooler, but the times we have been, no one else was there. The Canyon Pool is far too busy for our taste. Canyon Villas and Westin Kierland do have some great common seating areas, but the lobby at Kierland is much better, though we usually don't hang out in the lobby. Both have access to their respective hotels and I would give an edge to the JW at Desert Ridge over the Westin Kierland Hotel. Though the JW Desert Ridge often limits Canyon Villas guests from using their facilities. I don't think that happens at Kierland. Parking at Canyon Villas is also setup very poorly. It isn't as bad at Kierland.

Kierland however does have a few drawbacks. They close the Recreation Pool far too early and it drives families to the Relaxation Pool. We were going to go down to the Relaxation Pool last night but heard a lot of screaming, looked out and it was full of kids. That isn't my idea of Relaxation. We passed. They need to keep the Recreation Pool open until at least 10pm. These things are swim at your own risk, so I don't understand why they close it so early. Last night we also could hear a dog barking (yapping) for over two hours in our building. I walk down a floor and knew it was from the room below ours. I called the front desk to look into it. They called back to tell me that no one was registered in that room nor the one beside it. Odd, since there were do not disturb signs on the door. Not sure what was up with that, perhaps some staff using the room for the night? Certainly resorts can't stop all guests from sneaking pets on property, but the barking lasted for a long time after I called, which means they didn't simply just send someone to the room to knock and enter.


----------



## Red elephant

dioxide45 said:


> To call Canyon Villas a "dump" seems a little bombastic. My definition of a dump would be more akin to some of the motels along 192 with prostitutes and drug deals going down on a regular basis. I beleive Canyon Villas has renovated their villas, so they aren't old or tired. I don't find them anymore dark than the small 1BR at Westin Kierland Villas where the only window is in the bedroom. That said, Canyon Villas has some big drawbacks that make it less desirable than Kierland. It is located in North Phoenix. It is close to the Desert Ridge Mall which has a lot to do, but it seems there are better shopping and dining options in the Scottsdale area where Kierland is located.
> 
> Canyon Villas also has only one, effective, pool area. The Lizard Lagoon and Spa Pool are good concepts, but everyone gravitates to the only real pool area at the Canyon Pool. Lizard Lagoon is only 1' deep and outside of some kids playing for a short time, most people want to be in a regular pool. Spa Pool is probably okay in the winter when it is cooler, but the times we have been, no one else was there. The Canyon Pool is far too busy for our taste. Canyon Villas and Westin Kierland do have some great common seating areas, but the lobby at Kierland is much better, though we usually don't hang out in the lobby. Both have access to their respective hotels and I would give an edge to the JW at Desert Ridge over the Westin Kierland Hotel. Though the JW Desert Ridge often limits Canyon Villas guests from using their facilities. I don't think that happens at Kierland. Parking at Canyon Villas is also setup very poorly. It isn't as bad at Kierland.
> 
> Kierland however does have a few drawbacks. They close the Recreation Pool far too early and it drives families to the Relaxation Pool. We were going to go down to the Relaxation Pool last night but heard a lot of screaming, looked out and it was full of kids. That isn't my idea of Relaxation. We passed. They need to keep the Recreation Pool open until at least 10pm. These things are swim at your own risk, so I don't understand why they close it so early. Last night we also could hear a dog barking (yapping) for over two hours in our building. I walk down a floor and knew it was from the room below ours. I called the front desk to look into it. They called back to tell me that no one was registered in that room nor the one beside it. Odd, since there were do not disturb signs on the door. Not sure what was up with that, perhaps some staff using the room for the night? Certainly resorts can't stop all guests from sneaking pets on property, but the barking lasted for a long time after I called, which means they didn't simply just send someone to the room to knock and enter.


Aren’t the windows in the bedrooms at most of these resorts anyway? So dark is subjective. I own at SDO which is like canyon villas and given an option I would stay at Kierland. I use SDO as a trader and book Kierland with staroptions. But that’s just my preference .


----------



## dioxide45

Red elephant said:


> Aren’t the windows in the bedrooms at most of these resorts anyway? So dark is subjective. I own at SDO which is like canyon villas and given an option I would stay at Kierland. I use SDO as a trader and book Kierland with staroptions. But that’s just my preference .


There are windows in the bedrooms at most resorts, but most also have windows in the living room. There is no window in the livingroom of the 1BR standard at WKV. I think SDO might be the same, but not sure. Given the choice, I would also pick WKV over SDO every time.


----------



## hcarman

VacationForever said:


> For us long time Vistana and Marriott owners, Canyon Villas is a dump.  The check-in area is very small, very much like Worldmark check-in experience.  The buildings look like old converted condo buildings.   The room we had was dark and dingy. We didn't feel anything luxurious about it.  We also had awful food and service at JW Marriott next door.  The restaurant at the golf course was a little better.  We just never want to go back to Canyon Villas.
> 
> Westin Kierland is one of the crown jewels in the Vistana system.  The rooms are very nice and is one of the best Westin properties.  It is next door to the hotel which has great food too.  It is also very close to Kierland Commons and Scottsdale Quarter. One more thing, it is a couple of minutes walk to the golf course and practice facility.


I would disagree on your assessment of Canyon Villas being a dump?!  In fact, we enjoy the Desert Ridge area so much we bought a week there many years ago and still return.  We certainly go out and do other things but there is plenty to keep us busy at the two properties.  Front desk area isn’t large but we don’t spend much time sitting in the lobby unless we are visiting the pet bearded dragon.  And never found our room to be dark - in fact when we go in the spring everything seems so bright.  But we will certainly give Kierland a try and see what we think - we probably didn’t see too much just driving through.


----------



## RC51Tofuman

We just had our owner update YESTERDAY. I am trying to catch-up on this thread for the last 5 pages of this thread.

They told us Aug 8 is when the merger happens. We declined to take up on their offer that was given to us today. We kept the paper with all the chicken scratch of the Sales Pitch.

We are current owners of 1 bedroom Westin Flex at Nanea as 1 of the Home properties. 

They made the pitch of us upgrading to 2 bedroom, purchasing all 6 certificates (never to be offered again), 13 month window booking, bump from executive (which means nothing in new program) to platinum, plus bonus options deposited in our bank.

I am at the pool right now with Wife and 5 year old and can't think of the further details ....but it's all on paper back at the hotel room.

Is purchasing a resale still the better way to go in this soon New environment????

Update from earlier Post
Upgrade to 163,000 (2bedroom)
Platinum for life
104,000 bonus options
58,000 options
1x offer to purchase 6 coupons
Cost to us would be
$24,325 + 895 escrow
New maintenance fee $3423

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


----------



## mjm1

rcv82 said:


> I made the above table from the disclosures provided with Westin Flex from a couple years ago. It does not have the seasons. It would be especially interesting to see the season distribution on WRF.
> 
> Also note that the unit count varies on how they sold the property, I.e., on some they count the large and small side of a unit separately, while in other locations the combined lockoff is counted as a single unit.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





RC51Tofuman said:


> We just had our owner update YESTERDAY. I am trying to catch-up on this thread for the last 5 pages of this thread.
> 
> They told us Aug 8 is when the merger happens. We declined to take up on their offer that was given to us today. We kept the paper with all the chicken scratch of the Sales Pitch.
> 
> We are current owners of 1 bedroom Westin Flex at Nanea as 1 of the Home properties.
> 
> They made the pitch of us upgrading to 2 bedroom, purchasing all 6 certificates (never to be offered again), 13 month window booking, bump from executive (which means nothing in new program) to platinum, plus bonus options deposited in our bank.
> 
> I am at the pool right now with Wife and 5 year old and can't think of the further details ....but it's all on paper back at the hotel room.
> 
> Is purchasing a resale still the better way to go in this soon New environment????
> 
> Update from earlier Post
> Upgrade to 163,000 (2bedroom)
> Platinum for life
> 104,000 bonus options
> 58,000 options
> 1x offer to purchase 6 coupons
> Cost to us would be
> $24,325 + 895 escrow
> New maintenance fee $3423
> 
> Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
> 
> Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk



Thanks for sharing.

If I understand what you shared I think you inter-mixed the tiers of the Abound program and the Bonvoy program (ie going from Executive to Platinum). You would move to platinum in the Bonvoy program with Marriott Int’l. You would also move to Executive in the Abound program, which is equivalent to 3* Elite with Vistana. There actually is a nice and potentially valuable benefit at the Executive level. You can make reservations for one night or more at 13 months. At the lower level you have to wait until 10 months before checkin for one night or up to six nights, but you can make a seven night or more reservation at 10 months. So depending on your future needs that could be a benefit.

So, it is something to consider along with other options you mentioned.

Best regards.

Mike


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## RC51Tofuman

Thanks Mike
Appreciate the response.
We held off and declined the initial offer.
We weren't sure what was factual and just a sales pitch.
They gave us Encore package which would Lock-in on what pricing and extras were offered. We have up until our next visit to say Yes for this initial offering of the presentation. So we signed up on the Encore package and it will give us time to think about it 

Since I discovered this forum, I figured to throw the information out there and see what type of responses I get.

Before all of this.....I was thinking of purchasing as Resale on Redweek or a recommended broker. 
But ofcourse with this Merger of Vistana and Marriott throws another twist. 

I appreciate all the replies

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


----------



## wballoni

I apologize if this was covered somewhere back in the previous 27 pages of the thread. Has there been any discussion of the impact on current Marriott owners of adding Vistana owners? For instance, could it get significantly harder to book popular Marriott resorts with points?


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## samcar1

Is Ritz Carlton within the Marriott DC point system? I thought I saw it but maybe its just a pipe dream


----------



## dioxide45

samcar1 said:


> Is Ritz Carlton within the Marriott DC point system? I thought I saw it but maybe its just a pipe dream


Yes, Ritz Carlton Residences properties can be book using Club Points. I beleive 1+ nights at 6 months for Owner and Select and 1+ night at 13 months for Executive and above.


----------



## Dean

wballoni said:


> I apologize if this was covered somewhere back in the previous 27 pages of the thread. Has there been any discussion of the impact on current Marriott owners of adding Vistana owners? For instance, could it get significantly harder to book popular Marriott resorts with points?


It has been discussed and non of us truly know.  I suspect the highest demand options in both systems will become more difficult for the inventory in the DC.  This will likely have more affect on the MVC side initially but that will likely even out over time.  We shall see.


----------



## samcar1

dioxide45 said:


> Yes, Ritz Carlton Residences properties can be book using Club Points. I beleive 1+ nights at 6 months for Owner and Select and 1+ night at 13 months for Executive and above.


thank you for clarifying.  I will be President on this plan.  It's all very confusing.  I hope it works out well for all.


----------



## Pamplemousse

Way past 15 hours and now new message that it will take longer and come back tomorrow.


----------



## dioxide45

Did we honestly think it would be done in 15 hours??? We were kidding ourselves.


----------



## Pamplemousse

No we didn’t. But it’s cute that they retain optimism!


----------



## billymach4

Personally I am a very outspoken critic of this website and affiliated processing. Whatever they are doing is a Massive Project. Been on the backend of many such projects myself. 

Let's cut them some slack and let them get it right.


----------



## Pamplemousse

They set the expectations saying it would take “15 hours”.
Wrong to believe them?


----------



## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> Did we honestly think it would be done in 15 hours??? We were kidding ourselves.


Most companies set a lower bar that can be easily beaten. When they announced 15 hours I thought it would take them a lot less and that after few hours it would all be up and running . Marriott keeps on surprising me and not in a good way.


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## kyaustin

True, they should have said we expect this to take at least 15 hours but may take as many as 24 (or xx hours) to set expectations correct.
That is unless their 15 hour estimate was already them setting expectations low when they thought it would only be 4-5 hours, in which case this is a total FUBR


----------



## dougp26364

samcar1 said:


> Is Ritz Carlton within the Marriott DC point system? I thought I saw it but maybe its just a pipe dream



They can, but availability is often as scarce as hens teeth, especially in high season. San Francisco seems to be the easiest to book. Vail in Spring, Summer and Fall has decent availability. I’ve read of others on TUG getting St Thomas Ritz units as well as Lake Tahoe. I’ve searched some for the Lake Tahoe Ritz but have been unsuccessful myself. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen the Aspen property have availability and that’s the one I’d really love to visit. We are Chairman’s level as can book 13 months ahead, although that’s not always when I see openings for the Ritz properties. I’m hoping to get an October unit in Vail for our anniversary next year.


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## samcar1

I guess ski season is a pipe dream?


----------



## dougp26364

samcar1 said:


> I guess ski season is a pipe dream?



For a Ritz property? Maybe, but I’m never looking for ski season as we’re not skiers.

Ritz was sold entirely differently than the typical timeshare to a rather exclusive, upscale, clientele. Because of the way it was sold and how Ritz owners usage rights work, it makes it a little more difficult for MVC owners to gain access to those properties.

This YouTube video gives a little insight into how they sold thenRitz properties and the differences in how their owners can book time within that club.


----------



## dioxide45

dougp26364 said:


> For a Ritz property? Maybe, but I’m never looking for ski season as we’re not skiers.
> 
> Ritz was sold entirely differently than the typical timeshare to a rather exclusive, upscale, clientele. Because of the way it was sold and how Ritz owners usage rights work, it makes it a little more difficult for MVC owners to gain access to those properties.
> 
> This YouTube video gives a little insight into how they sold thenRitz properties and the differences in how their owners can book time within that club.


I think the usage in San Francisco is unique to that location? I am not sure all of the locations allow for nightly usage like San Francisco?


----------



## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> I think the usage in San Francisco is unique to that location? I am not sure all of the locations allow for nightly usage like San Francisco?



At St Thomas they were sold as three week fractionals with two winter (high season) weeks and a summer (shoulder) week on a rotating/cycle basis.  They also allow booking unused inventory within 60 days.  I don't own there, but had looked into it.  Not sure of any other details.


----------



## samcar1

thanks.  I know about the fractional timeshares.  That's why i was surprised to see it show up on the Marriott Chart.


----------



## rickxylon

Just got this thru the chat function. Reps name deleted.


What is the latest estimate as to when the website will be working

4:16:25 PM
Hello, sorry we still do not have the exact date but it should not take long since the issue comes from one of our systems and we need that system for a lot of our tasks so I hope that it will not take too long. In the meantime, if you need to book something using points or anything related to points we can do it for you.

4:18:44 PM
Me
Thanks. When it’s working again, will the response time be faster? It has been horribly slow for a long time.

4:20:25 PM
I know and I apologize for that as well, yes it must work way better, and well all of this is because of the product transformation which is getting closer but of course it will be working fine soon.


----------



## jyatl

dougp26364 said:


> For a Ritz property? Maybe, but I’m never looking for ski season as we’re not skiers.
> 
> Ritz was sold entirely differently than the typical timeshare to a rather exclusive, upscale, clientele. Because of the way it was sold and how Ritz owners usage rights work, it makes it a little more difficult for MVC owners to gain access to those properties.
> 
> This YouTube video gives a little insight into how they sold thenRitz properties and the differences in how their owners can book time within that club.



Thought I'd share my experience booking Ritz. I'm on the way back from 6 days at the St Thomas Ritz. I booked 1/29 when I bought my first bundle, before i even closed. I originally booked for 5 days. Then on the day of check in while waiting at the airport,  i called owner services and added another day. The rep had to get a supervisor to approve since i was technically booking 1 day. She had to cancel the 5 day then rebook 6. All in all very smooth experience.


----------



## GraceH

dioxide45 said:


> The problem is that they only have ROFR at a few resorts. They could up their game in Maui, but I suspect that they will offer a lot of points to Maui weeks to convert to Club Points. Probably in line or a bit higher than Marriott offers MOC owners in the new towers. A 2BR oceanfront gets almost 7,500 Club Points. I suspect the Westin properties may get closer to 8,000. That may not ba a good value to the astute Tugger, but most others would just see that they can score several weeks in DC for that amount of points and elect Club Points.


I’m a newbie going through some old posts so you’ll have to excuse this delayed reply.
I own a deeded MOC OF in the new towers and was unsuccessful booking a July 4th, 2023 week (I know, high demand week) at 6am PST 12 months out with a desktop computer, laptop, and iPad at the ready to lock down a reservation. Instead I had to resort to my backup plan of using DC points (luckily we had plenty banked from previously cancelled trips), but I had to use 9,000 DC points to book the same OF unit that’s worth only 7475 Club points when I elect my unit. Kinda frustrating but am thankful at the same time to have scored a booking for July 4th so that we could travel with family (who did not have to sweat bullets trying to book WKORVN) at the same time.
I’m certainly curious to see how much an OF WKORV/N/Nanea would be worth in DC points.


----------



## GraceH

GregT said:


> I could see the situation where I book WPORV 12 months out using Marriott DC Points.   And then wait to see if WPORV is available with StarOptions 8 months out.
> 
> If it is, I book with SOs and cancel my WPORV reservation and get my DC points back.



Only minor caveat is you may lose building and/or view preferences specified at initial booking (12 month prior) to those reservations with timestamps earlier than your followup SO reservation. Though the loss of these preferences may be worthwhile sacrifice to get back your higher value DC points.


----------



## GraceH

The Ritz


dougp26364 said:


> They can, but availability is often as scarce as hens teeth, especially in high season. San Francisco seems to be the easiest to book.



[Unsolicited quick review] The Ritz-Carlton Club in San Francisco is lovely.
Fully stocked kitchen with wine fridge, beer, and on call chef too. They have housekeeping twice daily, a laundromat closet, 1.5BA, turn-down service, and more.
The 24hr lounge has a fancy coffee machine, and a huge variety of TAZO tea flavors. Snacks, fruits, wine social hour daily, and a nice outside patio too and a 2-story gym I’d forgotten to check out.
Cookie Chest in the lobby stocked around the clock (pre-covid).
View of Union square from the Cheesecake Factory in Macy’s And ice skating rink from Nov, 2019


----------



## jabberwocky

GraceH said:


> I’m certainly curious to see how much an OF WKORV/N/Nanea would be worth in DC points.


Our 2BR WKORV/N OF week get us 8325 points in the new Abound program. Of course it takes a lot more points to book the same unit at that time, which is why I’ve booked via Vistana and may try renting out our July 4th reservation, we’ll see.


----------



## pacman777

GraceH said:


> The Ritz
> 
> 
> [Unsolicited quick review] The Ritz-Carlton Club in San Francisco is lovely.
> Fully stocked kitchen with wine fridge, beer, and on call chef too. They have housekeeping twice daily, a laundromat closet, 1.5BA, turn-down service, and more.
> The 24hr lounge has a fancy coffee machine, and a huge variety of TAZO tea flavors. Snacks, fruits, wine social hour daily, and a nice outside patio too and a 2-story gym I’d forgotten to check out.
> Cookie Chest in the lobby stocked around the clock (pre-covid).
> View of Union square from the Cheesecake Factory in Macy’s And ice skating rink from Nov, 2019



Isn’t the Club access only if you book a club level room on the hotel side ($$$$$)? Not for timeshare bookings? If timeshare units and bookings get access to that club then that’s a bargain!


----------



## michael49

--Isn’t the Club access only if you book a club level room on the hotel side ($$$$$)? Not for timeshare bookings? If timeshare units and bookings get access to that club then that’s a bargain!--

We had access to the Club both times that we stayed there. The last time was about 4 years ago.


----------



## Davey54321

michael49 said:


> --Isn’t the Club access only if you book a club level room on the hotel side ($$$$$)? Not for timeshare bookings? If timeshare units and bookings get access to that club then that’s a bargain!--
> 
> We had access to the Club both times that we stayed there. The last time was about 4 years ago.


We did as well when we were there 3 or 4 years ago…


----------



## kozykritter

Interesting discussion. Back to some speculating ...Today I called in about some wait lists and the owner services rep told me that they were told that the new program would launch at the end of fall. I asked her if she meant to say the end of summer and she said she is certain they said the end of fall which would be nearly Christmas. It made me think that I need to plan my 2023 travels with MVC now without thinking I will be accessing DC points through Abound with my Vistana ownership to use in my bookings, in case she is right. Has anyone heard anything like this?


----------



## GraceH

jabberwocky said:


> Our 2BR WKORV/N OF week get us 8325 points in the new Abound program. Of course it takes a lot more points to book the same unit at that time, which is why I’ve booked via Vistana and may try renting out our July 4th reservation, we’ll see.



8325 points, much better than 7475 and fair given the much nicer Vistana studios vs that Marriott efficiency.


----------



## Fallenone

pacman777 said:


> Isn’t the Club access only if you book a club level room on the hotel side ($$$$$)? Not for timeshare bookings? If timeshare units and bookings get access to that club then that’s a bargain!


That specific RC is for residence and timeshare only. Different from the other RC hotel which is quite close. Hence all who stay there can use the club. The club itself does not provide nearly as much as the RC hotel $$$$ club access rooms.


----------



## daviator

kozykritter said:


> Interesting discussion. Back to some speculating ...Today I called in about some wait lists and the owner services rep told me that they were told that the new program would launch at the end of fall. I asked her if she meant to say the end of summer and she said she is certain they said the end of fall which would be nearly Christmas. It made me think that I need to plan my 2023 travels with MVC now without thinking I will be accessing DC points through Abound with my Vistana ownership to use in my bookings, in case she is right. Has anyone heard anything like this?


That seems as if it would eliminate any possibility for Vistana owners to elect DP/Abound points for 2023, since I think the election deadline is maybe 9/30 for the following year.  Which is basically what you said, lol...

As disappointing as this might be to any Vistana owners who are eager to access MVC properties or MVC owners wanting to access Vistana, it seems like it might be a more realistic schedule than any of the previous estimated launch dates which have been discussed.  But yeah, Fall ends on December 21, so late Fall is basically Christmas.


----------



## jabberwocky

daviator said:


> That seems as if it would eliminate any possibility for Vistana owners to elect DP/Abound points for 2023, since I think the election deadline is maybe 9/30 for the following year.  Which is basically what you said, lol...
> 
> As disappointing as this might be to any Vistana owners who are eager to access MVC properties or MVC owners wanting to access Vistana, it seems like it might be a more realistic schedule than any of the previous estimated launch dates which have been discussed.  But yeah, Fall ends on December 21, so late Fall is basically Christmas.


This is a good point. They probably wanted to get it rolled out this summer so Vistana owners could elect their units for 2023 usage and as. A result may have tried the IT transition before it was fully tested and ready. 

While conceivably they could get it done in time for the Sept 30 deadline, it is becoming increasingly unlikely in my opinion. Better for them to take their time and do it right.  It maybe some time until we see something real.


----------



## dioxide45

They could always allow for Vistana owners to Elect through December 31st for the first year only. Sept 30/Oct 31 is an arbitrary number anyway. If Vistana owners can't elect 2023, it makes the whole system a bust for another whole year.


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## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> They could always allow for Vistana owners to Elect through December 31st for the first year only. Sept 30/Oct 31 is an arbitrary number anyway. If Vistana owners can't elect 2023, it makes the whole system a bust for another whole year.


A couple people here were told in presentations that they would elect points whenever they wanted to do a transaction, not by a deadline like for MVC weeks. If that's the case, then not launching until late 2022 is not as impactful to Vistana owners. MVC owners would see Vistana inventory build even more slowly in this case than it's likely to under a set deadline, unfortunately.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> A couple people here were told in presentations that they would elect points whenever they wanted to do a transaction, not by a deadline like for MVC weeks. If that's the case, then not launching until late 2022 is not as impactful to Vistana owners. MVC owners would see Vistana inventory build even more slowly in this case than it's likely to under a set deadline, unfortunately.


I am not exactly sure what others were told, but I don't see why it would be any different for Vistana owners than it is Marriott owners. The rules are all written into the Exchange Procedures.


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## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> They could always allow for Vistana owners to Elect through December 31st for the first year only. Sept 30/Oct 31 is an arbitrary number anyway. If Vistana owners can't elect 2023, it makes the whole system a bust for another whole year.


True but by that time many Vistana owners have already made travel plans for 2023 and the number of deposits will be greatly reduced. The best Marriott inventory will also be long gone by that time so there will be disappointment on both sides.


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## wjarcher

Based on what I was told this week, Vistana election will start in October, and end by 12/31 this year to accommodate the launch of the new program. No changes for MVC club deadlines. Not sure how it would impact the cross program booking, I assume Vistana weeks would be available for MVC members as late as October.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## regatta333

We are supposed to be Presidential in Marriott when the systems are merged.  My understanding was that most of these miscellaneous fees (banking options, Interval exchanges into Marriott, etc) would go away.  Since the banking deadline for us is October 1 and the system is still not live, I guess will we still have to pay banking fees this year.


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## wjarcher

regatta333 said:


> We are supposed to be Presidential in Marriott when the systems are merged. My understanding was that most of these miscellaneous fees (banking options, Interval exchanges into Marriott, etc) would go away. Since the banking deadline for us is October 1 and the system is still not live, I guess will we still have to pay banking fees this year.



The merged program only applies to your 2023 usage. The banking fee and deadline for your Vistana 2022 usage won't change.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> They could always allow for Vistana owners to Elect through December 31st for the first year only. Sept 30/Oct 31 is an arbitrary number anyway. If Vistana owners can't elect 2023, it makes the whole system a bust for another whole year.


Am I remembering correctly that the rules/deadlines for electing Points were relaxed during 2010, the year the DC was launched? It was so confusing that many owners still didn’t have enough information to decide to enroll their Weeks by the election deadlines, nevermind enroll them and elect Points for them!


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## kozykritter

wjarcher said:


> Based on what I was told this week, Vistana election will start in October, and end by 12/31 this year to accommodate the launch of the new program. No changes for MVC club deadlines. Not sure how it would impact the cross program booking, I assume Vistana weeks would be available for MVC members as late as October.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


On Facebook a nice couple were told in a virtual presentation today that it will launch in about 90 days which adds to the evidence that a summer launch has been aborted. If MVC doesn't think they can do a successful launch right now, in the end we'll all be happier if they wait until a time when they can pull it off without too many hitches.  Otherwise, imagine the website outage frustration and anger times a hundred!  No thanks


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## vacationtime1

kozykritter said:


> On Facebook a nice couple were told in a virtual presentation today that it will launch in about 90 days which adds to the evidence that a summer launch has been aborted. If MVC doesn't think they can do a successful launch right now, in the end we'll all be happier if they wait until a time when they can pull it off without too many hitches.  Otherwise, imagine the website outage frustration and anger times a hundred!  No thanks


Worse than that -- until Marriott gets its IT act together, they don't have a product to sell.


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## JIMinNC

kozykritter said:


> On Facebook a nice couple were told in a virtual presentation today that it will launch in about 90 days which adds to the evidence that a summer launch has been aborted. If MVC doesn't think they can do a successful launch right now, in the end we'll all be happier if they wait until a time when they can pull it off without too many hitches.  Otherwise, imagine the website outage frustration and anger times a hundred!  No thanks



If the launch has, in fact, been delayed due to the technology issues, there may be some reference to that when Marriott Vacations Worldwide releases their 2Q 2022 earnings early next week. In their June Investor Day presentation at the New York Stock Exchange, executive management quoted a "summer" launch for Abound. If that has moved to fall, they may have an obligation to disclose that material change in their comments next week. The earnings release is scheduled for Monday after the market closes, and the Analyst Conference Call is at 8:30am EDT on Tuesday August 9. We may hear something more definitive then.


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## fbast

I met with a MVC sales rep to explore the new Abound program on 08/4. I purchased a Vistana Fountains II two bedroom unit on the resale market over 20 years ago.  The rep informed me the deadline to join Abound was August 12. The cost to join didn't seem attractive to me. Has anybody joined or met with a rep?
I would appreciate any feedback or advice from my fellow owners. Thanks in advance.


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## VacationForever

fbast said:


> I met with a MVC sales rep to explore the new Abound program on 08/4. I purchased a Vistana Fountains II two bedroom unit on the resale market over 20 years ago.  The rep informed me the deadline to join Abound was August 12. The cost to join didn't seem attractive to me. Has anybody joined or met with a rep?
> I would appreciate any feedback or advice from my fellow owners. Thanks in advance.


There is no deadline.  Sales will continue to sell you developer points or international weeks to qualify your resale.  Their only goal is to make a sale now.

Since you bought your resale > 20 years ago, back in 2007/2008 when SVR imposed a special assessment, there was an offer that went out to resale SVR owners, except Cascades and Lakes phases, to join SVN back then.  Did you join?  If you had joined, then your week is already in the internal network.


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## marciaheitz

I'm confused so someone please enlighten me. I'm a Marriott owner and this is (from what I'm reading here) going to be a Vistana/Marriott merger so owners can trade into either system (again my understanding so far). But earlier in the thread it was referred to as a Marriott/Westin/Sheraton system now. I try to learn the rules so I can use them to my advantage so please someone explain this piece to me. Thanks in advance!


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## VacationForever

marciaheitz said:


> I'm confused so someone please enlighten me. I'm a Marriott owner and this is (from what I'm reading here) going to be a Vistana/Marriott merger so owners can trade into either system (again my understanding so far). But earlier in the thread it was referred to as a Marriott/Westin/Sheraton system now. I try to learn the rules so I can use them to my advantage so please someone explain this piece to me. Thanks in advance!


Vistana is the "company" for Westin and Sheraton timeshare system.  It was re-branded from Starwood for the timeshare side, when that got sold off to ILG.  Marriott (timeshare business) bought ILG.  The merged system has not yet been implemented.  Interval Leisure Group (ILG) also includes Interval International, a timeshare exchange company, and Hyatt timeshare business.  Marriott recently acquired Welk resorts and those are being merged into the Hyatt brand.  They are kept separate for now - Hyatt Residence Club and Hyatt Vacation Club (Welk),


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## fbast

VacationForever said:


> There is no deadline.  Sales will continue to sell you developer points or international weeks to qualify your resale.  Their only goal is to make a sale now.
> 
> Since you bought your resale > 20 years ago, back in 2007/2008 when SVR imposed a special assessment, there was an offer that went out to resale SVR owners, except Cascades and Lakes phases, to join SVN back then.  Did you join?  If you had joined, then your week is already in the internal network.


I did join the SVN network and was able to exchange my Vistana unit for the Westin St. John resort and Harborside-Paradise Island, Bahamas.  I also was a member of RCI for many years and cancelled my membership.  I just joined Interval International and I'm hoping for better luck with exchange availability at Marriott resorts.


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## daviator

marciaheitz said:


> I'm confused so someone please enlighten me. I'm a Marriott owner and this is (from what I'm reading here) going to be a Vistana/Marriott merger so owners can trade into either system (again my understanding so far). But earlier in the thread it was referred to as a Marriott/Westin/Sheraton system now. I try to learn the rules so I can use them to my advantage so please someone explain this piece to me. Thanks in advance!


Also, it's not really a merger of the systems, more like an overlay, where Vistana owners will have the option every year to assign their ownership to the Destination Club system (now being renamed Abound.)  Ownerships which are assigned to Abound will be available for all Abound/DC members to reserve.  But Vistana owners who don't need or want to access Marriott Vacation Club resorts can just continue to use their ownerships as they do today, within the Vistana network, and not participate in Abound.


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## VacationForever

fbast said:


> I did join the SVN network and was able to exchange my Vistana unit for the Westin St. John resort and Harborside-Paradise Island, Bahamas.  I also was a member of RCI for many years and cancelled my membership.  I just joined Interval International and I'm hoping for better luck with exchange availability at Marriott resorts.


In this case, there should be no cost to join the Abound program.  No need to buy anything.


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## fbast

VacationForever said:


> In this case, there should be no cost to join the Abound program.  No need to buy anything.


Not true - there is a $15 - 20,000 cost to join Abound according to the MVC rep that I met with last week.  I'm confused now.  
Does anyone know when SVN dissolved and internal exchanges were discontinued?


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## Eric B

fbast said:


> Not true - there is a $15 - 20,000 cost to join Abound according to the MVC rep that I met with last week.  I'm confused now.
> Does anyone know when SVN dissolved and internal exchanges were discontinued?



The VSN (formerly SVN) is still active and available and it is still possible to book stays through it using StarOptions.  Rumors of its demise are greatly exaggerated.


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## VacationForever

fbast said:


> Not true - there is a $15 - 20,000 cost to join Abound according to the MVC rep that I met with last week.  I'm confused now.
> Does anyone know when SVN dissolved and internal exchanges were discontinued?


VSN is not being dissolved.  Since your timeshare was enrolled, i.e. made to perform like a developer-bought timeshare, you will be part of Abound.   Owners like you will have options to continue to use the week, trade in II, book through VSN using SOs, or elect to convert to Abound points each year and book through Abound.  Ask yourself - do you trust a salesperson whose goal is to transfer money from your pocket to theirs, or the collective knowledge of TUG?


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## daviator

fbast said:


> Not true - there is a $15 - 20,000 cost to join Abound according to the MVC rep that I met with last week.  I'm confused now.
> Does anyone know when SVN dissolved and internal exchanges were discontinued?


SVN was not dissolved (it was renamed to VSN when Starwood Vacation Ownership became Vistana) nor is it going to dissolve.  It continues to be the primary way that Vistana owners access other Vistana properties outside of their home resort(s).  Even with the new Abound overlay, VSN will continue to exist and many Vistana owners will continue to use it.


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## dougp26364

fbast said:


> Not true - there is a $15 - 20,000 cost to join Abound according to the MVC rep that I met with last week.  I'm confused now.
> Does anyone know when SVN dissolved and internal exchanges were discontinued?



timeshare salesmen lie and you’ve been lied too.


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## Grandma2016

jabberwocky said:


> Our 2BR WKORV/N OF week get us 8325 points in the new Abound program. Of course it takes a lot more points to book the same unit at that time, which is why I’ve booked via Vistana and may try renting out our July 4th reservation, we’ll see.


I own OF as well at KOR.  Where did you see how many points it takes with Marriott to book same weeks we own?


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## dioxide45

Grandma2016 said:


> I own OF as well at KOR.  Where did you see how many points it takes with Marriott to book same weeks we own?











						Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana and Marriott Ownerships
					

I did reach out and the current start date is still 1 August but until it actually happens, we'll have to see.  My guess is it'll come down to whether things actually work when they flip the switch on the computer change over.  Even if they can't flip the switch on on August 1st, it would be...




					tugbbs.com


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## Grandma2016

dioxide45 said:


> Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana and Marriott Ownerships
> 
> 
> I did reach out and the current start date is still 1 August but until it actually happens, we'll have to see.  My guess is it'll come down to whether things actually work when they flip the switch on the computer change over.  Even if they can't flip the switch on on August 1st, it would be...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com


If my calculations are right.....i have 33125 MVC points not counting my week 52s.  This divided by 5500 which is a 1 BR OF at KOR (our preferred room type) would give me 6 weeks.  With my SO value on what I own not counting week 52 i have 769100 SO divided by 95100 (cost of 1 BR OF) gets me 8 weeks in 1 BR OF.  So Im losing 2 weeks if I transfer my weeks to MVC.  But doing this gives me 13 month booking window?????  Thoughts????


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## ocdb8r

Grandma2016 said:


> If my calculations are right.....i have 33125 MVC points not counting my week 52s.  This divided by 5500 which is a 1 BR OF at KOR (our preferred room type) would give me 6 weeks.  With my SO value on what I own not counting week 52 i have 769100 SO divided by 95100 (cost of 1 BR OF) gets me 8 weeks in 1 BR OF.  So Im losing 2 weeks if I transfer my weeks to MVC.  But doing this gives me 13 month booking window?????  Thoughts????


As a general rule it will almost certainly never make sense to elect MVC DPs in order to use them at Vistana resorts; StarOptions will always give you more nights at Vistana resorts EXCEPT in a few instances where the specific nights you want are in a season MVC DP charts have defined as a substantially lower season than the VSN StarOption Chart has (I have looked at the Charts and these instances are few and far between but they do exist at MVC DP has a much more detailed set of "season" charts).  As a result, you should likely not elect/convert MVC DPs (and keep in mind, if you are eligible at all, this is a decision you can make each year; it is not permanently "transferring" your weeks).

As to the 13 month reservation window; First, it is unclear if this will apply to Vistana resorts at all - no one has been able to articulate how MVC could allow this for Vistana resorts given how the legal docs for the resorts are written; Second, even if it is possible for Vistana resorts, the only available inventory will be those weeks OTHER owners have elected to convert to MVC DPs.  That is likely to be very little inventor at most resorts (and miniscule at the Hawaii resorts).  Even if this is permissible at 12 months out (as has been speculated) you will encounter the same inventory issues.  Bottom line, again, you're likely to see very little reservation window benefit for Vistana resorts by using MVC DPs (this could change over time as more Vistana owners participate and choose to elect/convert....but I suspect it will be a long time).


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## Grandma2016

ocdb8r said:


> As a general rule it will almost certainly never make sense to elect MVC DPs in order to use them at Vistana resorts; StarOptions will always give you more nights at Vistana resorts EXCEPT in a few instances where the specific nights you want are in a season MVC DP charts have defined as a substantially lower season than the VSN StarOption Chart has (I have looked at the Charts and these instances are few and far between but they do exist at MVC DP has a much more detailed set of "season" charts).  As a result, you should likely not elect/convert MVC DPs (and keep in mind, if you are eligible at all, this is a decision you can make each year; it is not permanently "transferring" your weeks).
> 
> As to the 13 month reservation window; First, it is unclear if this will apply to Vistana resorts at all - no one has been able to articulate how MVC could allow this for Vistana resorts given how the legal docs for the resorts are written; Second, even if it is possible for Vistana resorts, the only available inventory will be those weeks OTHER owners have elected to convert to MVC DPs.  That is likely to be very little inventor at most resorts (and miniscule at the Hawaii resorts).  Even if this is permissible at 12 months out (as has been speculated) you will encounter the same inventory issues.  Bottom line, again, you're likely to see very little reservation window benefit for Vistana resorts by using MVC DPs (this could change over time as more Vistana owners participate and choose to elect/convert....but I suspect it will be a long time).


My thoughts exactly.


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## rcv82

ocdb8r said:


> As a general rule it will almost certainly never make sense to elect MVC DPs in order to use them at Vistana resorts; StarOptions will always give you more nights at Vistana resorts EXCEPT in a few instances where the specific nights you want are in a season MVC DP charts have defined as a substantially lower season than the VSN StarOption Chart has (I have looked at the Charts and these instances are few and far between but they do exist at MVC DP has a much more detailed set of "season" charts). As a result, you should likely not elect/convert MVC DPs (and keep in mind, if you are eligible at all, this is a decision you can make each year; it is not permanently "transferring" your weeks).
> 
> As to the 13 month reservation window; First, it is unclear if this will apply to Vistana resorts at all - no one has been able to articulate how MVC could allow this for Vistana resorts given how the legal docs for the resorts are written; Second, even if it is possible for Vistana resorts, the only available inventory will be those weeks OTHER owners have elected to convert to MVC DPs. That is likely to be very little inventor at most resorts (and miniscule at the Hawaii resorts). Even if this is permissible at 12 months out (as has been speculated) you will encounter the same inventory issues. Bottom line, again, you're likely to see very little reservation window benefit for Vistana resorts by using MVC DPs (this could change over time as more Vistana owners participate and choose to elect/convert....but I suspect it will be a long time).



While I agree with your general rule, it appears that for Westin Maui owners, the DPs will get you far more nights than the StarOptions to go anywhere other than Maui. I have to believe this will make Maui much tougher to get into with StarOptions. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Grandma2016

rcv82 said:


> While I agree with your general rule, it appears that for Westin Maui owners, the DPs will get you far more nights than the StarOptions to go anywhere other than Maui. I have to believe this will make Maui much tougher to get into with StarOptions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Are you thinking for ppl booking outside of home booking period?


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## jabberwocky

rcv82 said:


> While I agree with your general rule, it appears that for Westin Maui owners, the DPs will get you far more nights than the StarOptions to go anywhere other than Maui. I have to believe this will make Maui much tougher to get into with StarOptions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


How do you figure? Remember the election has to be done by September 30 of the prior year in many cases. If the election isn’t done and you just have an owner who is lazy and doesn’t book at least 8 months in advance, the week now becomes available via SO.


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## rcv82

jabberwocky said:


> How do you figure? Remember the election has to be done by September 30 of the prior year in many cases. If the election isn’t done and you just have an owner who is lazy and doesn’t book at least 8 months in advance, the week now becomes available via SO.



You do have to plan ahead, so yes lazy people (or those with a change of plans) may default to StarOptions. But if you know you want to not use it a year, the 8300 or so DPs for an OF week is worth far more than the 176,700 StarOptions to travel outside Maui. With 3 OF weeks, I will never plan to use those as StarOptions. (My Sheraton Mountain Vista worth 148,100 StarOptions, however, will mostly get used as StarOptions. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## DanCali

rcv82 said:


> You do have to plan ahead, so yes lazy people (or those with a change of plans) may default to StarOptions. But if you know you want to not use it a year, the 8300 or so DPs for an OF week is worth far more than the 176,700 StarOptions to travel outside Maui. With 3 OF weeks, I will never plan to use those as StarOptions. (My Sheraton Mountain Vista worth 148,100 StarOptions, however, will mostly get used as StarOptions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I agree that 8300 DPs will generally get you farther than 176,700 SOs. WKORV was either undervalued in SVN or is overvalued in the DC exchange, and most owners who plan in advance and who do not use their home resort will choose DPs over SOs.

But if you think of cash as the ultimate equalizer, the difference is not always as vast which causes some weird incentives for non-Maui owners. If you ascribe values of $0.68/DP (approximate actual rental value) and 3 cents per Staroption (approximately what it's worth to me as a rental at WKV) the difference favors 8300 DP, but it's only by a small margin (certainly not "far more"). I imagine your 2BR OF can rent for $5000-$5500 so the value I use for SOs probably also applies to you as well, give or take a bit.

One can argue that this makes WKV Platinum and Maui more or less equivalent (which they were in SVN) but they certainly are not equivalent in the DC exchange. Everything, with the possible exception of Lagunamar, got very undervalued relative to Maui. Therefore, I suspect many of the savvier WKV owners will either stay in the SO world or, using cash as the equalizer, will rent out their week for $4500-$5000 and use that cash to rent 6400-7100 DPs from the WKORV/N owners


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## daviator

DanCali said:


> I agree that 8300 DPs will generally get you farther than 176,700 SOs. WKORV was either undervalued in SVN or is overvalued in the DC exchange, and most owners who plan in advance and who do not use their home resort will choose DPs over SOs.
> 
> But if you think of cash as the ultimate equalizer, the difference is not always as vast which causes some weird incentives for non-Maui owners. If you ascribe values of $0.68/DP (approximate actual rental value) and 3 cents per Staroption (approximately what it's worth to me as a rental at WKV) the difference favors 8300 DP, but it's only by a small margin (certainly not "far more"). I imagine your 2BR OF can rent for $5000-$5500 so the value I use for SOs probably also applies to you as well, give or take a bit.
> 
> One can argue that this makes WKV Platinum and Maui more or less equivalent (which they were in SVN) but they certainly are not equivalent in the DC exchange. Everything, with the possible exception of Lagunamar, got very undervalued relative to Maui. Therefore, I suspect many of the savvier WKV owners will either stay in the SO world or, using cash as the equalizer, will rent out their week for $4500-$5000 and use that cash to rent 6400-7100 DPs from the WKORV/N owners


Good analysis.

But I think one of the things that the developer counts on is that the percentage of owners who are "savvier" is a pretty small piece of the pie.


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## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> The point cost in June when I am going is very low. About the same as staying at the Marriott Frenchman’s Cove. I think the beach at Westin St John is meh too. You need to have a rental car to drive to the public beaches that are nice.
> 
> To me, paradise in St John was destroyed with the hurricane. If you ever stayed at Caneel Bay, it was amazing. I have never been to such an amazing resort. I hope it reopens. We stayed there for 8 days a few years before the hurricane. I wanted to go back but it was too late.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caneel Bay Resort | St John, USVI Beachfront Resort
> 
> 
> The resort remains closed through 2022, with the exception of VI Ecotours at Honeymoon Beach and ZoZo’s Restaurant at Caneel Bay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.caneelbay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would stay at Westin St John too with my SOs if I could get a booking there. It is pretty hard to get at the 8 month mark. Not impossible if you check a lot but hard. We are staying at Ritz St Thomas for 15 nights in June. If I could have gotten something to combine it and split the time on each island, I would.
> 
> We will visit St John at least 3-4 times on our upcoming trip. Most of those times will be by boat. One time, we may take the ferry over and go to Honeymoon Beach, which is one of Caneel Bay’s beaches. I need to see if it is open to the public. I think this beach rents cabanas, which is important for me due to my light skin and recent skin cancer surgery. To me, taking the ferry over to St John and then a taxi to the beach is not all that much more complicated than staying at Westin St John and driving over to the beaches. Westin St John is on the wrong side of St John. If it were on a beach like Caneel Bay was, I would own there for sure.
> 
> Do you have any advice about getting around St John? Which are the best beaches? Which beaches have chairs and umbrellas for rent?


There has been plenty of 8 month reservations at WSJ. I just booked 8 nights in a pool villa for Memorial Day week. There are still plenty of 2 bedrooms available


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