# HGV at Coylumbridge Lodges



## Squid (Dec 11, 2018)

Hello Everyone!

Long time member here but I have never owned a TS until maybe now.

I'm about to pull the trigger on two "Holiday Certificates" during platinum weeks at Coylumbridge Lodges. I hear a lot about the Craigendarroch here but not very much about Coylumbridge.

Each one is at £3,995 including the £195 legal fees.

This will get me 14,000 HGVC Platinum points a year as each is two bedroom unit.

The MF last year was £516.46 ($645 at today's price) and is expected to be close to that this year (but not released yet). This seems reasonable compared to other MF's for HGVC.

My overall questions are:
1: Does anyone else here own here and what things good and/or bad should I know about?

2: Am I getting a good deal overall especially since they are HGVC Resales and I get Elite status? (Not that big of a deal I see nowadays.)

3: In legalese, are "Holiday Certificates" the same as Deeds?

4: The weeks convert free to HGVC at 7k each but I have to manually let them know each year. Is this normal? I know in the US (EDIT) you are getting a "season and a unit size" that equals points. (Thank You Cyberc!)

5:  Has anyone signed up and used TransferWise.com It seems like a great option for paying and converting usd to pound sterling. This will give me the option of breaking up the MF's over 10 payments at no additional charge since it would be a international bank account.

6: Any red flags I should be aware of?

Thanks in advance for all your help and responses.


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## Cyberc (Dec 11, 2018)

Squid said:


> My overall questions are:
> 
> 3: In legalese, are "Holiday Certificates" the same as Deeds?
> 
> ...



I have removed the questions which I don’t have any knowledge about. Unfortunately I don’t have any specific knowledge about the hotel. 

3. No the certificates are not the same as deeds but they are commonly used in Europe when buying a timeshare as a RTU (right to use). Your ownership will expire in 20xx mine in Portugal expires in 2042. Iirc others expire after 99 years. 

4. It’s normal when you own a fixed week or event week that it’s prebooked each year and you need to call in to cancel the booking to free up your points. I think I read that some resorts now allow you to cancel online. 

In the US you don’t just buy points you buy a season and a unit size. Those two combined equals a number of points each year or EOY. 

6. Check when the RTU expires and adjust your offer price according to that.


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## Squid (Dec 11, 2018)

I had no idea about the RTU. Sending and Email.


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## ConejoRed (Dec 11, 2018)

I own at Craigendarroch Lodges and it is also a holiday certificate.  The use is "perpetual" with no expiration date however so there is currently no "expiration" date on it.  I did receive something recently in the mail from the HOA that they were gathering feedback on whether to change it to RTU with a fixed expiration date (similar to what the Craigendarroch Suites have apparently) but it sounded like a big undertaking to get the changed passed and I am not sure I would vote for the change as I think it will diminish the resale value the closer you get to the RTU expiration date.


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## GT75 (Dec 11, 2018)

Squid said:


> I'm about to pull the trigger on two "Holiday Certificates" during platinum weeks at Coylumbridge Lodges. I hear a lot about the Craigendarroch here but not very much about Coylumbridge.



Hopefully @Pathways or @Sky313 or @Anthony Schmid will response because I think they own there.


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## GT75 (Dec 11, 2018)

Squid said:


> 4: The weeks convert free to HGVC at 7k each but I have to manually let them know each year. Is this normal? I know in the US (EDIT) you are getting a "season and a unit size" that equals points.



From my experience at Craigendarroch (which I expect to be the same at Coylumbridge), you will have an automatic fix week reservation made for you for next year and following year.    You will see these reservations in your reservation list.   If you cancel your reservation, it will revert to points.    This is the same as other fixed week reservations in the HGVC system.    So, I didn't need to call to cancel.   I could do this all on-line.


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## Anthony Schmid (Dec 11, 2018)

GT75 said:


> Hopefully @Pathways or @Sky313 or @Anthony Schmid will response because I think they own there.


I purchased both Craigendarroch Lodge and Coylumbridge Lodge for the platinum points. They both work identical where I received a holiday certificate. I cancelled both 2019 and 2020 reservations online for both resorts to take the points. I don't know much about the resorts other than they are in Scotland


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## GT75 (Dec 11, 2018)

ConejoRed said:


> I did receive something recently in the mail from the HOA that they were gathering feedback on whether to change it to RTU with a fixed expiration date



Wow, that is interesting.    Something that I didn't know about.


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## GT75 (Dec 11, 2018)

Squid said:


> 6: Any red flags I should be aware of?



Here is my take on purchasing HGVC from Scotland.


The purchase price (~$0.74/point) and the MFs (currently) (~$0.092/point)are very good.   The fees including that to enroll the unit into HGVC are lower than a resale unit in US HGVC.   
Your MFs will vary depending upon the exchange rate.   Right now it is the lowest in 20 months.   So obviously, it can be higher.
This is an affiliate, so there is a possibility (I think slight) that it could pull out from HGVC.  
The MFs increase for Craigendarroch is only 2.4%.    From the data being collected, it seems like most of the best/better MFs are only increasing around that value.    Hopefully, Coylumbridge will be similar.


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## dayooper (Dec 11, 2018)

GT75 said:


> Here is my take on purchasing HGVC from Scotland.
> 
> 
> The purchase price (~$0.74/point) and the MFs (currently) (~$0.092/point)are very good.   The fees including that to enroll the unit into HGVC are lower than a resale unit in US HGVC.
> ...



What were the transfer and enrollment fees at Craigendarroch, at least when you bought?


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## PigsDad (Dec 11, 2018)

The exchange rate is a significant risk, IMO.  In 2007 the exchange rate would have made the MFs 60% higher than today.  The USD has been strong against the Pound in the current economic cycle -- will it continue?  Or will it drop?  Nobody really knows.  As long as you can accept this risk, I think the Scotland properties can be a very good deal.

Kurt


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## GT75 (Dec 11, 2018)

dayooper said:


> What were the transfer and enrollment fees at Craigendarroch, at least when you bought?



Legal fees - £195
Enrollment fee - £277
Total fees = £472 = $592.36 (at today's exchange rate)


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## dayooper (Dec 11, 2018)

GT75 said:


> Legal fees - £195
> Enrollment fee - £277
> Total fees = £472 = $592.36 (at today's exchange rate)



Nice price compared to the $1000 that it takes to transfer a deeded US unit. Thanks for the info!


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## ConejoRed (Dec 11, 2018)

GT75 said:


> Wow, that is interesting.    Something that I didn't know about.



Found the letter.... will try and attach it here and hope it is readable.


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## GT75 (Dec 11, 2018)

ConejoRed said:


> Found the letter



Thanks.     I am not in favor of it either.

I guess on the positive side, I didn't pay that much for it in the first place.     So, if it went away in 2050, it wouldn't be that much of a loss.     I don't think that I will be here in 2050 anyways to worry about it.


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## Sky313 (Dec 11, 2018)

GT75 said:


> Hopefully @Pathways or @Sky313 or @Anthony Schmid will response because I think they own there.


Yes, as said above, received a holiday certificate which is perpetual. Can easily cancel reservation for points online (previously had to call in). I posted a map/pic layouts of the lodges based on numbers in the HGVC detailed resort Sticky. The lodge is run by the Highland lodges club and as such is an affiliate but they have a HGVC sales office there  http://www.coylumbridge.info.

If i remember correctly there was a special assessment last year or so for the river flooding.

Also make sure to choose a good platinum week (in the middle and not at the edge of platinum) . Not sure, but potentially Hilton /HGVC can change the calendar of platinum /gold/silver weeks in the future to change the value of your week.  My concern with Coylumbridge is that it does not seem as popular or not as well up kept. The hotel has mixed reviews as some rooms are small and dated, and recently changed ownership (was on sale for years ) but i believe Hilton still manages it


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## PigsDad (Dec 12, 2018)

Sky313 said:


> Also make sure to choose a good platinum week (in the middle and not at the edge of platinum) . Not sure, but potentially Hilton /HGVC can change the calendar of platinum /gold/silver weeks in the future to change the value of your week.


I don't think there is much risk of HGVC lowering the value of a week.  Just imagine the uproar from owners!  The only season adjustment HGVC has ever made that I know of if at Flamingo, where they _upgraded _some weeks to a higher season -- I've never heard of a downgrade.

Kurt


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## DannyTS (Dec 12, 2018)

The platinum season at Craigendarroch is generous in the summer  and it extends from weeks 21 to 43. I agree that there is a low chance HGVC will change the points chart at any resort, it would make owners uncomfortable at all the resorts. 

However, according to the sales department most of the buyers there are locals (80-90%) and owning a week when the kids are not in school should help to sell if you ever decide to. I think it is worth to pay the extra dollars and/or to wait for the right week.


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## natarajanv (Dec 12, 2018)

ConejoRed said:


> Found the letter.... will try and attach it here and hope it is readable.
> View attachment 9392 View attachment 9393



Its good to know that HILTON is taking back the Craigendarroch lodges weeks. There are like 12 bronze/silver weeks. What will happen if all the owners of Bronze/Silver weeks decide to give it back?


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## GT75 (Dec 12, 2018)

natarajanv said:


> Its good to know that HILTON is taking back the Craigendarroch lodges weeks.



That wasn't Hilton but the HOA which was just asking for comments.   I have heard that this is already a dead item and will go no further.     I really don't see how it could be changed by an HOA if it is in the owner's contract.


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## natarajanv (Dec 12, 2018)

GT75 said:


> That wasn't Hilton but the HOA which was just asking for comments.   I have heard that this is already a dead item and will go no further.     I really don't see how it could be changed by an HOA if it is in the owner's contract.



I agree that amending the HOA constitution might be the dead item, but reading the attached document by @ConejoRed, It see that "HGVC offers an exit strategy where qualifying owners may be able to give their week to them for no consideration". This is what I was more concerned about as who will be responsible for MF's if some of the dog weeks were given back. I don't like that idea, unless I am misreading/misinterpreting it.


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## GT75 (Dec 12, 2018)

natarajanv said:


> HGVC offers an exit strategy where qualifying owners may be able to give their week to them for no consideration



I missed that part of the letter because I was too focused on the other item.    I see it now, thanks for pointing it out.    I see pluses and minuses to the change.


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## Anthony Schmid (Dec 14, 2018)

Attached is a letter I received from Coylumbridge


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## GT75 (Dec 14, 2018)

Anthony Schmid said:


> Attached is a letter I received from Coylumbridge



Interesting reading through the letter.   It looks to me that the reserve fee funding is short and needs to be increased for Coylumbridge.    We all want our MFs to be low but not too low that the property isn't being maintained sufficiently.   This is my opinion on MFs and isn't a statement on Coylumbridge MF funding.


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## Sky313 (Dec 14, 2018)

GT75 said:


> Interesting reading through the letter.   It looks to me that the reserve fee funding is short and needs to be increased for Coylumbridge.    We all want our MFs to be low but not too low that the property isn't being maintained sufficiently.   This is my opinion on MFs and isn't a statement on Coylumbridge MF funding.


 
I understand but personally hope the assessments to increase reserves will be minimal.


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## Sky313 (Dec 15, 2018)

Also seems like there's not too many people exchanging their weeks or signing up for HGVC with their fixed week.

If anyone on this forum is interested in a relatively cheap exchange week with low maintenance fees and low buy in costs, this is it.


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## PigsDad (Dec 15, 2018)

Sky313 said:


> If anyone on this forum is interested in a relatively cheap exchange week with low maintenance fees and low buy in costs, this is it.


After reading that letter, I would say that buying in now has a significant risk of being hit with either "substantial increases" in the reserve fee (part of the MF) or special assessment(s) to cover the the upcoming work, especially considering this line from the letter:

"As we have an ageing property portfolio you can understand that projected work over the next 20 years is substantial and costly.  To be able to commit to this programme will inevitably require substantial increases in the reserves funding element of our annual fees."​
Combined with the exchange rate risk, I would be very cautious about purchasing a week there right now.  It may be a bargain now, but could become a nightmare later.  For those who have been around a while, this could be another South Africa TS situation.

Kurt


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## Sky313 (Dec 15, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> After reading that letter, I would say that buying in now has a significant risk of being hit with either "substantial increases" in the reserve fee (part of the MF) or special assessment(s) to cover the the upcoming work, especially considering this line from the letter:
> 
> "As we have an ageing property portfolio you can understand that projected work over the next 20 years is substantial and costly.  To be able to commit to this programme will inevitably require substantial increases in the reserves funding element of our annual fees."​
> Combined with the exchange rate risk, I would be very cautious about purchasing a week there right now.  It may be a bargain now, but could become a nightmare later.  For those who have been around a while, this could be another South Africa TS situation.
> ...



You make a good point. I was able to get Elite status through resale prices however....
At the time didn't know about the projected work needed. I think if US owners are looking for a way to elite status at resale prices this may be it, although has some risks. Sounds like the relationship with Hilton and HGVC is still intact. It's still considered a RCI gold property as well.


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## Pathways (Dec 15, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> After reading that letter, I would say that buying in now has a significant risk of being hit with either "substantial increases" in the reserve fee (part of the MF) or special assessment(s) to cover the the upcoming work, especially considering this line from the letter:



Seriously?  Currently $700 US for 7000 points.  The reserve fund at a measly $150 US out of that $700.  I would welcome a 'substantial' increase, even a 100% increase would not bother me.  I would rather have it fully funded.  It would still be one of the cheapest 7000 point contracts in the HGVC system.

I know, I know, the exchange rate risk.  That's always a concern, unlike my Marriott's where there is no 'risk' as it's a 'given' that it's going up, up , and up.



PigsDad said:


> The exchange rate is a significant risk, IMO. In 2007 the exchange rate would have made the MFs 60% higher than today



While correct, you're really cherry picking here.  (even at 60% higher, it would have been a great value in the HGVC system)  While exchange right now is GREAT, look back thirty years - there have been only four or five years even close to 2007's rate.



Sky313 said:


> At the time didn't know about the projected work needed. I think if US owners are looking for a way to elite status at resale prices this may be it, although has some risks. Sounds like the relationship with Hilton and HGVC is still intact. It's still considered a RCI gold property as well.



The 'acceptable' standard throughout most of the EU locations is quite different than our USA 'resort' expectations. They don't seem to look ahead on a schedule, but only consider replacements when things get really in poor condition. While I can't see a change from the HGVC system at Craigendarroch because the Suites there are 'points only' sales, I have wondered what HGVC would do if Coylumbridge didn't maintain reasonable standards.

I am pleased that more oversight from the US is taking place.  The only real risk is a lot of the owners are locals who don't belong to the Club, and may be resistant to funding renovations.  HGVC does not control the BOD, but hopefully the BOD will look far enough ahead to realize dollars now will be well spent towards future value.


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## PigsDad (Dec 16, 2018)

Pathways said:


> Seriously?  Currently $700 US for 7000 points.  The reserve fund at a measly $150 US out of that $700.  I would welcome a 'substantial' increase, even a 100% increase would not bother me.  I would rather have it fully funded.  It would still be one of the cheapest 7000 point contracts in the HGVC system.


I'll stand by my statement.  It is not only the risk (or most likely the inevitability) of the reserve fees being significantly increased, with the reserves having been set below what they needed to be for so long, there is also the risk of special assessments.  And those would be way more than $150.

 Like I said previously, if you know and are willing to accept the risks, it can be a great property to own.  But knowledge is key, and just focusing on it being a current bargain is shortsighted, IMO.

Kurt


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## Pathways (Dec 16, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> Like I said previously, if you know and are willing to accept the risks, it can be a great property to own. But knowledge is key, and just focusing on it being a current bargain is shortsighted, IMO.



I think we are in total agreement.  'Knowledge is the key'  IOW - Read the balance sheets and know how the numbers compare to other timeshare properties.  I like to compare to Marriott because they refurbish and rehab on a luxurious level and continuous basis.  Know what the worst case basis is - a total rebuild on a strictly cash basis. And compare to what you pay each year.  If this was a Marriott property and I was paying a premium fee each year and then a report like this came out, I would be concerned. I pay over $500/yr in reserves in a couple of Marriott's. As you say, this is 'significantly' and 'way more than $150'.  But of course when you are starting way down at $150 per year, and it has been there for years, it's all relative.

Also you are correct to not focus on it being a current bargain.  That's why I pointed out your 2007 exchange rate example is an anomaly.  Never look at one year like that. Look long term and see whether there is a trend or scattered data points in the exchange rate.  One could extrapolate from the data that the current bargain is short term, but last years bargain is typical.  And of course, another 2007 year may come along which will make ownership fees at Coylumbridge cost almost as much as numerous other HGVC properties.


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## 2travelinggoatz (Dec 20, 2018)

With the Brexit chaos, a substantial mf increase due to a high exchange rate is unlikely anytime soon.  The effect of the US economy, slated for a recession approx at the end of 2019, would be the more likely trigger if...Brexit is successful.  Although, it could balance out if the UK economy goes into a recession as well [which is currently their greatest fear].  In the meantime, ride the wave and enjoy!


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## Anthony Schmid (Jul 6, 2019)

I downloaded the may 2019 annual meeting report and it shows that the maintenance fees are underfunded and it looks like we are due for a hefty increase. Attached are the 2 options in the report.





Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## Cyberc (Jul 7, 2019)

Anthony Schmid said:


> I downloaded the may 2019 annual meeting report and it shows that the maintenance fees are underfunded and it looks like we are due for a hefty increase. Attached are the 2 options in the report.View attachment 12758View attachment 12759
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



So the suggestion is to increase the reserve fee with either £30 or £50?

If that will ensure that the reserve fee is not underfunded it’s a good thing. An increase of £50 is IMO not that much. 

Btw looking at the yellow numbers it seems that the increase is £60 and not £50?


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## Tamaradarann (Jul 7, 2019)

Sky313 said:


> I understand but personally hope the assessments to increase reserves will be minimal.



We all hope that assessments will be minimal or non-existent.  However, that is why every year there is an amount that is placed in the reserve from your maintenance in addition to the cost of annual operation.  If the Association of the Resort approves a budget to collect and place too little into the reserved every year for an extended period of time the reserve may not be sufficient to cover planned extensive maintenance and repairs that need to be done.  So it is a case of you pay a little more maintenance each year over your course of ownership or at times you may have to pay a large special assessment to make up for the shortfall.


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## Anthony Schmid (Jul 7, 2019)

The reserve study showed Coylumbridge is " Reserve fund is severely underfunded (currently, excluding VAT, 22% of maintenance fee)"
The 2 options given were to raise the maintenance fees from £530 in 2019 to £910 in 2020, £922 in 2021 and back down to £764 in 2022 and keep it steady from there. The second option is to raise it to £630 in 2020, £703 in 2021 and £763 in 2022.




Option 2


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## Sky313 (Jul 7, 2019)

Option 2 looks better. My concern with option 1 is that they may not decide to lower after 2021


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## Anthony Schmid (Jul 8, 2019)

Attached is a copy of the Coylumbridge annual meeting from May 31,2019


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## Sky313 (Jul 8, 2019)

Anthony Schmid said:


> Attached is a copy of the Coylumbridge annual meeting from May 31,2019


thanks, i haven't received this yet in the mail


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## Anthony Schmid (Jul 8, 2019)

Sky313 said:


> thanks, i haven't received this yet in the mail


Actually, i found this on the coylumbridge owners site.
https://www.coylumbridge.info/
login as: chlcmember
password: inverness
all lowercase
lots of good information there for owners


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## Anthony Schmid (Jul 8, 2019)

Here is a copy of the Craigendarroch meeting on April 27, 2019


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## Pathways (Jul 8, 2019)

For those who follow the BOD and their plans, there are no surprises here.  I have been nothing but impressed with the deep dive they take and the full disclosure they make about the resort issues/plans.

I have personally communicated to the management/BOD for a couple of years that I would not only support a dues increase, but felt it was needed to get the reserves in a position to keep the lodges up to HGVC standards.  While I enjoy MF's virtually the lowest in the HGVC system, the long term is more important.  Water cooler talk predicted the changes with the hotel sale, and the substantial changes and expenditures required this year were an anomaly.  

I like the fact that more than one option was laid out to get the resort reserves where they need to be.  The on-site HGVC inspection group must have been open with their recommendations.  My guess would be very few owners will support a huge increase just to get the fund to 100% in just a couple of years.  I supported the second option as it will get the fund where it needs to be to keep this resort as HGVC standards, and still keep the overall MF among the lowest in the system.

Some of the BOD is concerned about the delinquencies, but quite frankly every data point presented is under 2.5 % which I think is great.  I could only dream that some other timeshares I own had numbers that good.


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## Cyberc (Sep 29, 2019)

Anyone got an update regarding the potential increase of MF at the resort?


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## Anthony Schmid (Sep 29, 2019)

Cyberc said:


> Anyone got an update regarding the potential increase of MF at the resort?


I asked an owner who was at Coylumbridge for week 34. This is what she posted when I asked about a £60 increase next year.
 that’s not accurate as such, no.

In the minutes from the AGM, section 7 -affect of sale of hotel - stated we are all facing and increase of £28.75 on our fees to cover the cost of the expenditure this year of the hotel ditching us - ie new check in etc for us.

Section 8 The reserve fund - this is low due to recent upgrades and bank erosion project. Discussion on that was a recommended to increase all fees by £50, but that will involve further consultation. That’s £5/month.

There’s nothing specific to 2 bed lodges that I’ve seen. Hope this helps.
The link I posted does mention that the concrete roofs do need replacing.
https://www.coylumbridge.info/wp-co...1XpQhXFRTsiBA95f8Fb2CIaSzB0kEuRgtDyhTV2bJePCw


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## Cyberc (Sep 29, 2019)

Anthony Schmid said:


> I asked an owner who was at Coylumbridge for week 34. This is what she posted when I asked about a £60 increase next year.
> that’s not accurate as such, no.
> 
> In the minutes from the AGM, section 7 -affect of sale of hotel - stated we are all facing and increase of £28.75 on our fees to cover the cost of the expenditure this year of the hotel ditching us - ie new check in etc for us.
> ...



ok thanks. 

it seems that the approx £400 increase which was suggested didn’t materialize after all.


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## Anthony Schmid (Sep 29, 2019)

Cyberc said:


> ok thanks.
> 
> it seems that the approx £400 increase which was suggested didn’t materialize after all.


I was told from a board of director at Craigendarroch, that they also will have a nice increase in maintenance fees. Lodge 94, The 3 bedroom Plus lodge, will be over £1000 next year due to much needed maintenance.


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