# TUG changes for 2010



## TUGBrian

Starting off fresh for 2010, and ive always been one to open things up for discussion, while these are not going to be implemented instantly...just an fyi for some changes to be coming within the next month or so....and the reasonings behind them.

1. 25 free ads per year decreasing.

While the ads will still remain at $3 per ad (assuming you go over the limit)...due to abuses of the 25 limit (basically some people are just buying more memberships instead of paying for the ad overages)...we are going to have to adjust this number significantly to put it more in line with the cost of a membership.  It will be at a minimum of 5, thus allowing you to post an ad the entire year, at no additional cost to a member.

Note that less than 200 members have even posted 25 ads since the ad system went live back in 2007, so this isnt going to impact the vast majority of members.  I just want those who utilize the benefits of TUG above and beyond the regular membership fee, to pay their fair share if they are not submitting reviews and or referring other members.

2. Renewal Fees will change.  Currently a 1 year renewal is $10, this will go to $15.  However we will still give all members the option to renew for $10 a year with the 3 year renewal going to $30  (or $10 per year)...and both of course will come with ad credits just as before.


Now for the main reason behind this.

The past few years, one extremely large expense new expense for TUG has developed, and this is legal fees.

While I cannot discuss details (obviously), I can say that it costs tug many thousands of dollars a year to defend your right to post your opinions here without censorship.

Many of these companies that prey on the uneducated and or gullible, do not like to see the truth about them posted on a public timeshare owners site that is readily available via google searches for their company name...and in attempts to get us to alter or remove said posts, sick their lawyers on us.

TUG keeps a lawfirm that specializes in internet law on retainer to handle any and all legal threats (and there are many) that come in.  and each and every one of them is due to posts on the forums.

I personally will ALWAYS support the right to free speech, and allow everyone to voice their own opinions without the fear of a lawsuit...and thankfully there are laws specifically written to protect your right to publicly state your opinions without the fear of being sued.

The problem is, many of these organizations feel its in their best interests to attempt to threaten with legal action, in the hopes that we will just agree to their demands.    I however take personal offense to that, and this is where the legal fees come in.

TUG of course is in no way going anywhere, and overall the costs are not actually increasing for the regular user, as a 1 year membership is still $15, and you can still renew for $10 a year total.  I merely want to offset the costs of these new legal fees as much as I can, so I can continue to protect your right to actually educate other owners regarding the TRUTH about some of these timeshare organizations.

also note that for those that contribute to the site in terms of reviews and referrals, will also be able to do so without any change....as I never want to eliminate the ability for those that contribute to this community on a regular basis to make it better and larger, should not have to do so with money!

other new items coming in 2010:

1. newsletter signups for non-members
2. TUGBBS thread searches linked on resort review pages (ie a new link will exist on every resort review page that will display any and all discussion threads about that resort here on the forums)
3. upload photos for resorts within the resort review page (no more emailing!)
4. points systems review pages
5. a suprise =)

I wish you all a fantastic new year, and thank you all for making TUG the best place on the internet for timeshare owners!


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## Stricky

TUGBrian said:


> 5. a suprise =)


 

Sorry to hear about the legal costs. I think everyone would be willing to tolerate some additional ads in the forums if that could help raise revenue.


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## Egret1986

*TUG IS the best place on the internet for timeshare owners!*

It's a shame that free speech here on TUG has to be defended.  The 2010 changes are not unreasonable.  I applaud your efforts on the part of the membership and those looking for advice and come to TUG for info and to ask questions.


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## dmbrand

I guess I am completely naive about the lawsuit issues.  In retrospect, I suppose that companies might not want to be mentioned in a less than glowing light.

Thank you for the enlightenment, and also for maintaining this forum in its current format.  We need to stay "informed" consumers; I find TUG to contain a wealth of information that isn't provided in many other places.  I personally have saved many $$$ from the advice received here.


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## Bruce W

NO problems here with the changes. Tug is and has been the first site I visit each day, even during Fantasy Baseball Season.

Best $10,  uh $15 spent


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## TUGBrian

putting ads on the forums is a line Im not currently willing to cross, I like leaving the forums on its own completely dedicated server, and preventing advertising to keep it 100% unbiased and specifically for user opinions.

Honestly, its also one of the things that protects us as well, as the TUGBBS.com server is completely free to use, and tug does not generate one penny of profit off its running.

In some of our "legal" items, it has been claimed that TUG profits off the "lies" spread on its forums by users...basically saying that we make things up about the scams and such, because somehow TUG competes with these companies?

*shrug...i gave up trying to comprehend some of the nonsense ive heard from lawyers over the past few years....you reallly would be amazed at how "out there" some of this stuff really is.

Alot of it comes from the fact that the forum discussions are for the most part completely indexed within google now, and when someone types in the company name, these threads pop up even above said companies own websites!


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## ace2000

Brian,

Is there anything that can be done with some sort of disclaimer automatically appearing at the bottom of each person's post? 

In other words, posting something to the effect of 'This post reflects the opinion of this poster only and does not reflect the opinion of TUG'... your liability seems to be similar to what a radio talk show might suffer and they continually run commercials like this.

Just wondering if there's something that can be done to decrease your liability... 

Also, one thing that I've always been concerned about is the fact that your moderators appear to be endorsing certain companies, individuals, etc. I would think if a moderator wants to endorse a company or an individual they should do so with another username that does not include the title of moderator. Just my opinion only...

TUG is currently a great bargain!!!!


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## baileysj88

*Applaud your effort!*

A big hearty thanks to TUGBrian and all those that support this forum. I for one am glad that there are those still out there willing to stand up and fight for what is right. My wife and I have proudly been serving our nation for more than 21 years (Air Force) and we salute all those who fight for the well being of others.

I have absolutely no problems with individuals stating their opinions. Even better when they are backed up with truthful facts. These changes sound good to me and I look forward to seeing this forum continue to grow and help educate people about the timeshare community. Keep the great advice flowing!


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## TUGBrian

baileysj88 said:


> A big hearty thanks to TUGBrian and all those that support this forum. I for one am glad that there are those still out there willing to stand up and fight for what is right. My wife and I have proudly been serving our nation for more than 21 years (Air Force) and we salute all those who fight for the well being of others.
> 
> I have absolutely no problems with individuals stating their opinions. Even better when they are backed up with truthful facts. These changes sound good to me and I look forward to seeing this forum continue to grow and help educate people about the timeshare community. Keep the great advice flowing!



disclaimers already exist on the site, and each user agrees to the posting guidelines upon registering as well.

While the concept of a forum is completely normal, and its common knowledge that every post is the opinion of that user, and not of TUG...common sense and law dont always go hand in hand.

per the moderator issues, its a very valid point...and also important to note that moderators are NOT tug employees.  100% of them are volunteers and owners just like you, and recieve no salary of any kind from TUG...nor do they represent TUG in any legal capacity.  Each and every one of them is a timeshare owner just like you, who after participating on the forums just like everyone else, has chosen to volunteer their time in upholding the rules that each registered user on the forum agrees to during their registration.

They still have their own opinons and are welcome to participate as regular users, as I think it would be a detriment to the forum itself if its most active and helpful members were restricted from posting after they took on the moderator role (also think id have alot fewer moderators if that were the case as well!)

Discussions regarding moderator comments take place on a regular basis, and some have taken it upon themselves to go above and beyond and point out their comments are their "opinions" in their posts...even though as mentioned above...thats the case by default.

There is a monstrous gap between someone saying "in my opinion, that company sucks and rips people off"...and merely saying "that company sucks and rips people off"

...as stated earlier, i gave up trying to comprehend what is logical and morally right, vs what is right in a court of law...but such is life...and probably why im not a high paid lawyer =)


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## DeniseM

ace2000 - Since Moderators are all timeshare owners and unpaid volunteers,  we are allowed to share our opinions like any other member.  Like Brian said, I don't think it wouldn't be much fun to be a Mod if all we were allowed to do was "babysit" the forums.  If a Mod was trying to take advantage by promoting something for personal gain, we would get called on it immediately, believe me!  And if a Mod violates the rules - they are let go!


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## ace2000

DeniseM said:


> ace2000 - Since Moderators are all timeshare owners and unpaid volunteers, we are allowed to share our opinions like any other member. Like Brian said, I don't think it wouldn't be much fun to be a Mod if all we were allowed to do was "babysit" the forums. If a Mod was trying to take advantage by promoting something for personal gain, we would get called on it immediately, believe me! And if a Mod violates the rules - they are let go!


 
First of all, this is very difficult to manage and violations would be difficult to catch. It could be a friend, a family member, or even a spouse that is receiving the endorsement.

Opinions are one thing, endorsements are another. Obviously, if a someone came to TUG seeking advice, and received an answer from someone with the TUG moderator title, that would carry some extra weight. Again, just my opinion only... it's not a big deal to me, if you all don't think it's a concern.


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## Aussiedog

*no problem here*

Happy to pay the higher fee.  I receive annual value from this site that is well in excess of $15!!!

Thanks for the heads up Brian.

Ann


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## TUGBrian

ace2000 said:


> First of all, this is very difficult to manage and violations would be difficult to catch. It could be a friend, a family member, or even a spouse that is receiving the endorsement.
> 
> Opinions are one thing, endorsements are another. Obviously, if a someone came to TUG seeking advice, and received an answer from someone with the TUG moderator title, that would carry some extra weight. Again, just my opinion only... it's not a big deal to me, if you all don't think it's a concern.



everyones opinions are a big deal, so I am not trying to be dismissive.  However I just cannot see an acceptable solution to this one as I think it would do more harm than good to somehow censor the moderators due to nothing more than a title in the upper left hand corner of their posts.

IMO, most if not all of the moderators are already respected members of the forums, and when they reply to a topic...they are providing solid advice.

If that is not the case, believe me we hear about it via email and or private messages and its dealt with on a case by case basis.


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## dmbrand

As to the original post.....

#5 - any hints on the surprise?  and when?


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## TUGBrian

dmbrand said:


> As to the original post.....
> 
> #5 - any hints on the surprise?  and when?



well that would ruin the suprise now wouldnt it :whoopie:


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## SueDonJ

Brian, you do a great job and provide an invaluable service with TUG, and I think the fees are well worth the value we get in return.  Many thanks for all you do ....

I am thrilled to pieces with the new review pics upload feature - Lord knows emailing them in the past nearly made my head explode.


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## LisaH

TUGBrian said:


> well that would ruin the suprise now wouldnt it :whoopie:



The suspense is killing me!!!  
Seriously, thanks for providng this website to all of us!


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## Happytravels

*2010*

This is my first site of the day and the last site of the day. I visit almost everyday without fail. 

Thanks Brian for everything you do!!!!!!  Know complaints here.


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## mpizza

I've been an avid reader for many years and the value I've receive is more than 100x the membership fee.  I appreciate the fact that you maintain this site for timeshare owners and look forward to our 2010 surprise.

Thanks for all you do!

Maria


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## Bwolf

It doesn't surprise me that scam companies, self-serving developers, and various other scoundrels and thieves would like to shutdown TUG.  TUG is a Beacon of Truth that exposes the scams and lies.


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## zazz

Bwolf said:


> It doesn't surprise me that scam companies, self-serving developers, and various other scoundrels and thieves would like to shutdown TUG.  TUG is a Beacon of Truth that exposes the scams and lies.



It is ironic.   So many people in this business who operate on the wrong side of the ethical, moral and even legal lines go right out and try to use laws meant to protect people to prevent the truth about their businesses from coming out.


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## M. Henley

*Cheap at the Price*

Having received a PhD's worth of education through TUG I can honestly say it is one of the bargains in life.


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## geekette

ace2000 said:


> First of all, this is very difficult to manage and violations would be difficult to catch. It could be a friend, a family member, or even a spouse that is receiving the endorsement.
> 
> Opinions are one thing, endorsements are another. Obviously, if a someone came to TUG seeking advice, and received an answer from someone with the TUG moderator title, that would carry some extra weight. Again, just my opinion only... it's not a big deal to me, if you all don't think it's a concern.



I don't think it's a concern at all.  

People go all over the internet believing whatever they want to believe, they talk to people at work, on line at the grocery store, thru Facebook, etc.  If someone cares enuf about a subject, they will do their research and not rely on something said by one anonymous person (altho, some people do ignore caveat emptor and always will).  

It's extremely rare that I take a moderator post on any board with more "ooomph" just because they're a mod.  and if that were the case, wouldn't it mean that I would value what you say even less because you aren't a mod?  I guess I don't see a problem, but admit that titles have never meant anything to me, online or in real life.  There is no implied credibility.  There is instead a website role.  

I think the other thing here is, where is the line drawn between opinion and endorsement?  If I'm not being paid, I don't feel I'm "endorsing" (I just raved about the Magic Bullet and have zero stake in whether someone buys one or not - my opinion is that it's great and I would recommend it, but, I do not believe I endorsed it simply because I believe that's a paid arrangement but wonder what hte legal definition is???)


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## JMAESD84

Thanks Brian for all that you do to provide the best website for we timeshare users.

Regarding resort photos.  

Can we also have the ability to download resort photos?  

This would be a helpful feature for when preparing ads for the rental, sale or exchange of timeshares on other sites such as craiglist, eBay, etc.


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## arch53

*A Bargain*

I would gladly pay additional to avoid ads on forum. TUG is an great example of the realization of the potential of the internet. I'm hooked.


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## ace2000

geekette said:


> I don't think it's a concern at all.
> 
> People go all over the internet believing whatever they want to believe, they talk to people at work, on line at the grocery store, thru Facebook, etc. If someone cares enuf about a subject, they will do their research and not rely on something said by one anonymous person (altho, some people do ignore caveat emptor and always will).
> 
> It's extremely rare that I take a moderator post on any board with more "ooomph" just because they're a mod. and if that were the case, wouldn't it mean that I would value what you say even less because you aren't a mod? I guess I don't see a problem, but admit that titles have never meant anything to me, online or in real life. There is no implied credibility. There is instead a website role.
> 
> I think the other thing here is, where is the line drawn between opinion and endorsement? If I'm not being paid, I don't feel I'm "endorsing" (I just raved about the Magic Bullet and have zero stake in whether someone buys one or not - my opinion is that it's great and I would recommend it, but, I do not believe I endorsed it simply because I believe that's a paid arrangement but wonder what hte legal definition is???)


 
First, we're talking about legal liability here...  it IS possible for a forum to be sued if the forum officers/owners endorse certain products and/or bad-mouth others.  I'm not saying whether they would win or not, but there _might_ be some liability... especially if it was allowed to continue over a period of time.  

Here's the definition of the word endorsement:
_To give approval of or support to, especially by public statement._

So, I don't want to get into a debate over what the word endorsement means vs. opinion.

What if you were a TUG member and happened to have a business entity that was a competitor of a business that continually received endorsements from TUG owners/moderators?  What if a moderator provided advice to someone to rescind a specific developer contract?  Could TUG be sued by Mariott, Wyndham, etc.???  I don't know...  It has the potential to get ugly and it really could be easily solved with a rule keeping moderators out of that role.  Also, it would be best to find the answers from an attorney.  I'm just raising it as a _potential_ issue.

Please read my statement at the end of my earlier post that states if Brian doesn't see it as a concern, then it is definitely not my concern.  I am huge TUG supporter and really appreciate this group!


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## TUGBrian

ace2000 said:


> First, we're talking about legal liability here...  it IS possible for a forum to be sued if the forum officers/owners endorse certain products and/or bad-mouth others.  I'm not saying whether they would win or not, but there _might_ be some liability... especially if it was allowed to continue over a period of time.
> 
> Here's the definition of the word endorsement:
> _To give approval of or support to, especially by public statement._
> 
> So, I don't want to get into a debate over what the word endorsement means vs. opinion.
> 
> What if you were a TUG member and happened to have a business entity that was a competitor of a business that continually received endorsements from TUG owners/moderators?  What if a moderator provided advice to someone to rescind a specific developer contract?  Could TUG be sued by Mariott, Wyndham, etc.???  I don't know...  It has the potential to get ugly and it really could be easily solved with a rule keeping moderators out of that role.  Also, it would be best to find the answers from an attorney.  I'm just raising it as a _potential_ issue.
> 
> Please read my statement at the end of my earlier post that states if Brian doesn't see it as a concern, then it is definitely not my concern.  I am huge TUG supporter and really appreciate this group!



the individual would have to stand to gain financially...and in regards to the TUGBBS forums...it makes zero profit either way.


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## zcrider

*TUG is the best!!!*

I am in total support of the new changes..............I know you would only make them if they needed to be in place!  I too come here daily and am trying to get my TUG PhD.     Where else could I get information like this and take my family on wonderful vacations that we could never afford without all this knowledge.  And learning this stuff is FUN b/c this forum makes it easy!  I think it has saved me way more $$$ then I have paid in!
  Thanks so much for all the hard work, and I value everyones opinions and look forward to reading them each day!  Please keep them comming.


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## bobby

Thanks for the hours and hours you and all the volunteers put in to keep us on top of the timeshare game. My favorite is the reviews/rankings.


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## Tacoma

I was also shocked that people would threaten to sue TUG for the comments posted here.  However this is a litigious society we live in.  I will happily pay the added cost for the value I receive here on TUG.  Keep up the good work.

Joan


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## AnnaS

Just wanted to also thank Brian and all the volunteers. 

I love the reviews/rankings the best.


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## catcher24

I don't visit the TUG site as often as a lot of members do (based on the preceding posts), but I have found my TUG membership to be one of the best values I get for my money. TUG would be a bargain to me at twice the price. The reviews are invaluable when I'm searching for a nice resort in a given area, and the exchange and resale sections are very valuable as well. Two posters mention getting their "Time Share PH D" via TUG, and I would have to agree that I have learned more about time shares from TUG than from all other sources combined. Thank you for maintaining the site, Brian, and I don't expect you will receive many (if any) complaints about the small fee increases.


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## ace2000

All I've got to say is that IF these fees keep continually increasing, I'm just going to have to place my TUG membership into my LLC... and you don't want to know what happens next...


:hysterical:


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## stmartinfan

TUG continues to be a great bargain, both for the timeshare information as well as the general "life" questions that get posted and answered here every day.  Thanks for this wonderful resource.


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## pittle

I also check TUG first thing in the morning and several times during the day.  I couldn't remember when my membership comes up for renewal, so I checked.  I set up a reminder to renew at the end of February for another 3 years!  It is a bargain.  I have learned so much and found many friends here.  I have also had the chance to meet some in person. 

Thanks for all the hard work.  I help as an administrator on a small forum, so I cannot imagine how much time you spend on this one.


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## dtdt

*Tug is the #1 resource .*

Tug is the #1 resource for me. I have 3 timeshares, and consult TUG numerous times a year.  Thanks for the good job! Well worth $15 a year.


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## Passepartout

As one TUG addict to the rest of you: TUG membership is a bargain at twice- oh, I mean 50% more-  the price...  

Jim Ricks


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## Lawlar

*Lawyers*



TUGBrian said:


> ....The past few years, one extremely large expense new expense for TUG has developed, and this is legal fees.
> 
> While I cannot discuss details (obviously), I can say that it costs tug many thousands of dollars a year to defend your right to post your opinions here without censorship.
> 
> Many of these companies that prey on the uneducated and or gullible, do not like to see the truth about them posted on a public timeshare owners site that is readily available via google searches for their company name...and in attempts to get us to alter or remove said posts, sick their lawyers on us....



I hate those pesky lawyers!!!  I really do.

We have a right to express our opinions - and yes, the Constitution gurantees that we can do so.  Thank you for paying the price to protect our rights.

Now that I'm retired, I'm writing a mystery novel.  Guess who the dark and evil villians are in my book?  Lawyers!!!!  I know where all the bones are buried and I'm happy to reveal the truth.  

 [As I've said before, I'll probably spend many centuries in Purgatory - or worse - for the years I spent practicing law.  Shakespeare was right.]


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## Nickfromct

Brian: 

 The $15 fee has saved me thousands. Keep up the great work here at TUG!


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## Keitht

Tacoma said:


> I was also shocked that people would threaten to sue TUG for the comments posted here.  However this is a litigious society we live in.  I will happily pay the added cost for the value I receive here on TUG.  Keep up the good work.



We should all be thankful that TUG in the form of Brian, has the financial ability to stand up to those threatening legal action.  I know of at least one forum where one group of companies can't even be mentioned because they have threatened legal action and the site owner can't afford to take a chance on them bluffing.


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## pedro47

We will always support this web site and that is why we renewed our membership today for an additional 3 years.


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## AnnaS

pittle said:


> I also check TUG first thing in the morning and several times during the day.  I couldn't remember when my membership comes up for renewal, so I checked.  I set up a reminder to renew at the end of February for another 3 years!  It is a bargain.  I have learned so much and found many friends here.  I have also had the chance to meet some in person.
> 
> Thanks for all the hard work.  I help as an administrator on a small forum, so I cannot imagine how much time you spend on this one.



Still learning here.  Where did you check your membership renewal information?  Thank you.


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## Kazy

Just wanted to add my thanks for all you do.  When we bought our timeshares, we were completely lost as to what to do.  The developer was only superficially helpful with learning the system.  I discovered TUG by searching the internet for more information and have found it to be invaluable.  My friends think that I am a timeshare expert! lol  I owe it to all the great people here who are so willing to share their time and expertise.


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## pittle

AnnaS said:


> Still learning here.  Where did you check your membership renewal information?  Thank you.



I started at the *TUG Home page *and clicked on *Resort Reviews *because I knew that I would have to *log in *there.  When I logged in, at My TUG, my name popped up and below it it said "Membership is valid through 3/1/2010."

http://tug2.com/TUGMembers/Login.aspx is the Link


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## MULTIZ321

Brian and all the Tug Volunteers,

Happy New Year and thanks for all your efforts to help make Tug the great resource that it is, not only for Timeshare information but for life information as well.

A Huge Tug Fan,

Richard


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## catcher24

AnnaS said:


> Still learning here.  Where did you check your membership renewal information?  Thank you.



Hey Brian. If people are having a difficult time finding the renewal location you might want to consider putting a link to the renewal page on the home page. A small separate link near the top or on one side. Just a thought.


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## AnnaS

I found it this morning.  It's on the front page right after logging on.


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## TUGBrian

AnnaS said:


> I found it this morning.  It's on the front page right after logging on.



there is a link on the left side of the homepage, as well as when anyone tries to log in and their membership is expired.

its also in the renewal emails sent out...and I made this page for simple reference as well:

http://renewal.tug2.net


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## geekette

Lawlar said:


> I hate those pesky lawyers!!!  I really do.
> 
> We have a right to express our opinions - and yes, the Constitution gurantees that we can do so.  Thank you for paying the price to protect our rights.
> 
> Now that I'm retired, I'm writing a mystery novel.  Guess who the dark and evil villians are in my book?  Lawyers!!!!  I know where all the bones are buried and I'm happy to reveal the truth.
> 
> [As I've said before, I'll probably spend many centuries in Purgatory - or worse - for the years I spent practicing law.  Shakespeare was right.]



Please let me know when you get it published - I love a good mystery!!


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## islandhome

*Great site, well worth a membership*

I just found this site yesterday..and have spent hours on here already.  Today I signed up for a 3 year membership.  I have learned more about timeshares than I ever thought possible, where were you 17 years ago when we first bought??    If you haven't become a member yet, trust me, its well worth it !


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## TUGBrian

islandhome said:


> I just found this site yesterday..and have spent hours on here already.  Today I signed up for a 3 year membership.  I have learned more about timeshares than I ever thought possible, where were you 17 years ago when we first bought??    If you haven't become a member yet, trust me, its well worth it !



Hi Island!  Welcome to TUG!

pleae note that a new membership to TUG is still $15...the 3 year $25 discount is for a 3 year renewal of an existing membership.


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## islandhome

oh oh


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## TUGBrian

islandhome said:


> oh oh



No worries, easy fix!

I can either grant you an extra year for the additional $10 submitted, or refund it and process you as a regular 1 year membership, your choice!


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## islandhome

The extra year will be great, thanks


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## DeniseM

geekette said:


> Please let me know when you get it published - I love a good mystery!!



Lawler - are you familiar with eBooks - digital books like the Kindle and Nook?  Some authors are offering their books for free to eBook owners to publicize their books and increase their reading audience.


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## Lawlar

*Good idea*



DeniseM said:


> Lawler - are you familiar with eBooks - digital books like the Kindle and Nook?  Some authors are offering their books for free to eBook owners to publicize their books and increase their reading audience.



Thank you for the idea.  I own a Kindle and spend hours on it everyday.  I may self-publish and spend a little $ promoting it.  But it is too early to think about that now.  I need to finish it first (21 Chapters are in my computer - so it will be finished this year).

Geekette:  I'll send you an autographed copy - for free!


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## TUGBrian

Renewal pricing changes will go into effect on 2/1/2010

no other changes will be made at this time...just the change to the 1 year renewal for $15...and the 3 year renewal to $30

Ill likely have a buffer period where people can still renew at the old rates if they recieved some of the older renewal emails already..and while i go through and update all the pages.


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