# Martial Law.....



## mdurette (Mar 20, 2020)

Rumors....I stress RUMORS are starting to fly around that the US may impose this weekend.
I didn't even know what it was, had to look up.

Basically .. Law enforcement by military.


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## Brett (Mar 20, 2020)

mdurette said:


> Rumors....I stress RUMORS are starting to fly around that the US may impose this weekend.
> I didn't even know what it was, had to look up.
> 
> Basically .. Law enforcement by military.




and just where are these "rumors" coming from?
I've been to Lowe's and Walmart today .... everything looked normal -  people shopping.   I bought everything I needed. 
  No black helicopters
*Walmart even had toilet paper !  *


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## missyrcrews (Mar 20, 2020)

I can say that Target team members have been given paperwork today that verifies that we are "essential workers."  There is a phone number on the paperwork for law enforcement to call.  Yes, I would say that martial law is a distinct possibility.


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## wackymother (Mar 20, 2020)

mdurette said:


> Rumors....I stress RUMORS are starting to fly around that the US may impose this weekend.
> I didn't even know what it was, had to look up.
> 
> Basically .. Law enforcement by military.



It's martial law, not Marshall law.


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## Passepartout (Mar 20, 2020)

mdurette said:


> Rumors....I stress RUMORS are starting to fly around that the US may impose this weekend.
> I didn't even know what it was, had to look up.
> 
> Basically .. Law enforcement by military.


Not to be picky, but.... It's Martial Law, NOT Marshall! HAHAHA


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## geist1223 (Mar 20, 2020)

Yeah Thurgood would not like be associated with this decision. Even though it has been 17 years since he died.


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## Passepartout (Mar 20, 2020)

geist1223 said:


> Yeah Thurgood would not like be associated with this decision. Even though it has been 17 years since he died.


Or even George.


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## Tia (Mar 20, 2020)

National Guard Ramping Up COVID-19 Response
					

About 2,050 National Guard soldiers and airmen in 27 states have been activated to support coronavirus response efforts.



					www.defense.gov
				




Check this out, don't be laughing imho


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## wilma (Mar 20, 2020)

ummm, if you’re gonna spread rumors, it’s martial law...


mdurette said:


> Rumors....I stress RUMORS are starting to fly around that the US may impose this weekend.
> I didn't even know what it was, had to look up.
> 
> Basically .. Law enforcement by military.


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## Luanne (Mar 20, 2020)

Tia said:


> National Guard Ramping Up COVID-19 Response
> 
> 
> About 2,050 National Guard soldiers and airmen in 27 states have been activated to support coronavirus response efforts.
> ...


From what I've heard the military is being called in to assist, not to enforce.  As the governor of New York was saying the military is ALWAYS called in for national emergencies.  Read the article.


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## chellej (Mar 20, 2020)

Activating the National Guard and Martial Law are 2 different things.  DS was activated for the last Hurricane in Texas......they help with logistics, rescue, any number of things.  They are extra bodies in an emergency.  These kinds of rumors are not helpful and just add to the panic.


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## bbodb1 (Mar 20, 2020)

Passepartout said:


> Or even George.


You beat me to it!






...but of course, it is Thorogood.....

On a totally unrelated note now - although this was nearly 30 years ago, I can still hear and _*feel *_the music of George Thorogood and the Destroyers to this day.  There was no warm up with George.  Literally, the entire band comes out and from the 1st note we are being blasted with magnificent guitar..  It was a spectacular performance - no show needed because the music did the talking.  One of the simplest stage setups I have ever seen.  Plain.  Nothing got in the way.  Loud. Outstanding.


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## chapjim (Mar 20, 2020)

mdurette said:


> Rumors....I stress RUMORS are starting to fly around that the US may impose this weekend.
> I didn't even know what it was, had to look up.
> 
> Basically .. Law enforcement by military.



How did you look it up if you can't spell it?


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## bbodb1 (Mar 20, 2020)

chapjim said:


> How did you look it up if you can't spell it?


Google makes inaccuracy the norm.


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## bbodb1 (Mar 20, 2020)

But to get back into the spirit of this thread, we do need a modern day Marshall Plan.....


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## chapjim (Mar 20, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> Google makes inaccuracy the norm.



One would think that in the process of looking it up, he would have learned how to spell it.


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## geekette (Mar 20, 2020)

Our state guard was activated weeks ago.  They are so far managing logistics, getting this there, that over here.... They might also be helping to get food to the infirm and homebound.  

Military is not just for fighting.  They lead our sandbagging efforts, too, when our rivers threaten residences.

In Italy, they are performing a very grim task, that I hope they will not have to do here.


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## geekette (Mar 20, 2020)

Sen Chuck Schumer has requested Marshall Plan for hospitals.  Maybe that's the misunderstanding that led to rumor.


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## bluehende (Mar 20, 2020)

While Martial Law can not be ruled out. it will not be invoked unless this gets so bad it leads to civil unrest.


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## bbodb1 (Mar 20, 2020)

chapjim said:


> One would think that in the process of looking it up, he would have learned how to spell it.


That's the problem with Google these days, Jim.  I deal with it when my elementary students attempt research on a simple topic.  Today's technology has conditioned students not to worry with actual learning because if you get in the general area of a correct spelling, they believe Google _*always *_points them to what they intended.  _*Write it down??!??  *_Can't be bothered with that says the look on their faces....


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## bbodb1 (Mar 20, 2020)

bluehende said:


> While Martial Law can not be ruled out. *it will not be invoked unless this gets so bad it leads to civil unrest*.



There are other corrective forces at work addressing that possibility.....








						Some Stock Up On Guns And Ammunition During Coronavirus Crisis
					

In some states, ammunition and gun sales have soared as the coronavirus pandemic grows. Lines have formed at gun stores as many gun buyers say they want to be ready with protection if there's panic.




					www.npr.org


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## DaveNV (Mar 20, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> There are other corrective forces at work addressing that possibility.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have a friend in another state who posted on Facebook a few days ago, repeating all the fear and panic rhetoric, asking where he could buy rifle ammunition in his area.  He's drinking the Kool-Aid and getting ready for the apocalypse.  I'm afraid someone is going to get hurt, or worse, through all of this.  

It's one thing to stay safe and be prepared to protect yourself, but another thing altogether to contribute to unease in an already stressed population.  I really appreciate that one Seattle TV station has an unbiased ongoing campaign of "Facts Not Fear" through all of this.  They want people to be informed, not afraid.

Dave


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## Passepartout (Mar 20, 2020)

You have to protect your toilet paper stash! Get out the machine guns!


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## mdurette (Mar 20, 2020)

chapjim said:


> One would think that in the process of looking it up, he would have learned how to spell it.



He is a she and spelling has NEVER been a strength!  I have corrected the title.

I told you I didn't even know what it meant.   I googled Marshall read the definition and clicked off.     I just did it again smart google apparently knew what I was asking because they changed the results to Martial and I didn't notice.   You guys and gals are tough today.

Massachusetts has activated the national guard.


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## Chrisky (Mar 20, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> There are other corrective forces at work addressing that possibility.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OMG, they are going to shoot the covid-19 virus when they see it coming.  LOL. Just too idiotic.


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## turkel (Mar 20, 2020)

So DH in law enforcement told me yesterday they haven’t heard Martial Law but one of his officers has been called up by the National Guard. Self quarantine seems to be the current recommendation. 

Ammo sales are up. People are concerned. Newsom in California just let out an excess of inmates. These are strange times and I am sure people are scared and want to be able to defend themselves if needed. Law abiding citizens don’t shoot other people for toilet paper but there is concern that an increase in lawlessness may occur. Some have no intention of being victimized .


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## WVBaker (Mar 20, 2020)

Brett said:


> and just where are these "rumors" coming from?
> I've been to Lowe's and Walmart today .... everything looked normal -  people shopping.   I bought everything I needed.
> No black helicopters
> *Walmart even had toilet paper !  *



Went to Food Lion today no toilet paper, but everything else was normal. Many elderly, 70s and 80s, out shopping. Oh yea, keep in mind, when in a crowd don't cough. They all take off running.


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## presley (Mar 20, 2020)

I can't say it's too far fetched. There's been helicopters out more than usual lately. Whenever I see one while walking my dogs, I wonder if they are going to tell me I can be out walking my dogs. I walk through/by 3 parks every day. They could just be flying by to make sure that there aren't any groups gathering.


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## presley (Mar 20, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> Oh yea, keep in mind, when in a crowd don't cough. They all take off running.


That info makes me want to cough so people will get out of my way.


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## SandyPGravel (Mar 20, 2020)

missyrcrews said:


> I can say that Target team members have been given paperwork today that verifies that we are "essential workers."  There is a phone number on the paperwork for law enforcement to call.  Yes, I would say that martial law is a distinct possibility.



I received the same kind of letter today, I work IT at a Distribution Center for large retail pharmacy chain.


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## CalGalTraveler (Mar 20, 2020)

There is a lot of foreign trolling and misinformation on social media so be careful. The military can help with building hospitals and distributing/procuring medical supplies to areas of need.


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## rhonda (Mar 20, 2020)

presley said:


> I can't say it's too far fetched. *There's been helicopters out more than usual lately.* Whenever I see one while walking my dogs, I wonder if they are going to tell me I can be out walking my dogs. I walk through/by 3 parks every day. They could just be flying by to make sure that there aren't any groups gathering.


I agree!  For two days this week the helicopter traffic over my house was _intense_.  Low and slow, shook my roof.


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## bbodb1 (Mar 20, 2020)

rhonda said:


> I agree!  For two days this week the helicopter traffic over my house was _intense_.  Low and slow, shook my roof.


Were they black???


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## geist1223 (Mar 20, 2020)

presley said:


> I can't say it's too far fetched. There's been helicopters out more than usual lately. Whenever I see one while walking my dogs, I wonder if they are going to tell me I can be out walking my dogs. I walk through/by 3 parks every day. They could just be flying by to make sure that there aren't any groups gathering.



But are they all Black with no identifying marks?


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## geist1223 (Mar 20, 2020)

"Essential Personnel" continue to work even if the Governor issues a stay at home order like California. I like how Marijuana Stores were declared "Essential" in California." Have to keep people pacified. Hopefully Liqour Stores are also "Essential."


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## klpca (Mar 20, 2020)

rhonda said:


> I agree!  For two days this week the helicopter traffic over my house was _intense_.  Low and slow, shook my roof.


Weird, I've had none that I can remember. Just normal military traffic.

Btw, our city closed the dog parks. I hope that the Husky owners survive because this is serious for them!


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## Brett (Mar 20, 2020)

geist1223 said:


> "Essential Personnel" continue to work even if the Governor issues a stay at home order like California. I like how Marijuana Stores were declared "Essential" in California." Have to keep people pacified. Hopefully Liqour Stores are also "Essential."




yes !  

On the local news in Virginia they showed people lining up at the gun stores.   The store owners said it's been record sales this past couple of weeks. Apparently people believe this will be similar to the zombie apocalypse movies only real life.


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## pedro47 (Mar 20, 2020)

There was no lines at the Bass Pro Store in Hampton, Va.. today.


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## Brett (Mar 20, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> There was no lines at the Bass Pro Store in Hampton, Va.. today.



this was a gun store in Norfolk where they only allowed a limited number of people in the store.   They had lines outside - one line for ammo sales, another for guns.


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## chapjim (Mar 20, 2020)

Chrisky said:


> OMG, they are going to shoot the covid-19 virus when they see it coming.  LOL. Just too idiotic.



It's to fend off the people who want your toilet paper!


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## Fredflintstone (Mar 20, 2020)

chapjim said:


> It's to fend off the people who want your toilet paper!



And hand sanitizer


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## chapjim (Mar 20, 2020)

Fredflintstone said:


> And hand sanitizer
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



"Gimme a string bean, I'm hungry man!  Shotgun fired and away he ran." (Bob Dylan, "Talking World War III Blues")


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## 10spro (Mar 20, 2020)

Strange times we're in. There are reports that kids here are supposedly going into grocery stores and coughing directly on the fresh fruit and vegetables on purpose. I may be old now but I don't ever remember a time when I would have thought that was fun or funny.


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## WVBaker (Mar 20, 2020)

chapjim said:


> It's to fend off the people who want your toilet paper!


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## chapjim (Mar 20, 2020)

presley said:


> I can't say it's too far fetched. There's been helicopters out more than usual lately. Whenever I see one while walking my dogs, I wonder if they are going to tell me I can be out walking my dogs. I walk through/by 3 parks every day. They could just be flying by to make sure that there aren't any groups gathering.



Far more likely that they are media helicopters.  There's no traffic so the trafficopters are looking for something to report.


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## chapjim (Mar 20, 2020)

“I hate to thrust my Western cultural values on anyone, but maybe it’s time to stop eating bats.” —David Harsanyi


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## dioxide45 (Mar 20, 2020)

I highly doubt you would see nationwide martial law. Perhaps something more regional (think a neighborhood or city) if violence or lawlessness breaks out.


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## davidvel (Mar 21, 2020)

rhonda said:


> I agree!  For two days this week the helicopter traffic over my house was _intense_.  Low and slow, shook my roof.


All kidding aside, lots of training in San Diego recently involving Osprey aircraft (helicopter/airplane hybrid).  Yes, they can be noisy, but are preparing for ongoing deployment overseas. As I'm sure you heard, we call it around here, "The sound of freedom."


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## goaliedave (Mar 21, 2020)

Canada did this in 1970 during our Quebec based civil war. Canadian Prime Minister said a few days ago he will do it again. Basically a suspension of rights and freedoms, jail on a whim, etc.

Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk


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## pedro47 (Mar 21, 2020)

Brett said:


> this was a gun store in Norfolk where they only allowed a limited number of people in the store.   They had lines outside - one line for ammo sales, another for guns.


Was this Bob Gun Store, on Granby St. this is where I would purchase all my weapons and ammunition. Great store.


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## Brett (Mar 21, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> Was this Bob Gun Store, on Granby St. this is where I would purchase all my weapons and ammunition. Great store.




I don't know, it was just a local TV news story.  It was the interviews that got my attention
People buying guns and ammo for the coming Armageddon


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Mar 21, 2020)

Time to binge watch all the Mad Max / Mel Gibson movies .
watch & learn .

[FYI ; I think it was oil/ gas / fuel -  not toilet paper that was the hoarding focus 
& right now the world has more than enough oil - so no immediate worries .]


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## Maple_Leaf (Mar 21, 2020)

goaliedave said:


> Canada did this in 1970 during our Quebec based civil war. Canadian Prime Minister said a few days ago he will do it again. Basically a suspension of rights and freedoms, jail on a whim, etc.


"Just watch me." - Pierre Trudeau


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## DannyTS (Mar 21, 2020)

Don't the governments (local, state and federal) realize that the panic is going to kill more people than the virus? Every single action has made people more and more scared. I wonder if those that jumped to buy toilet paper first were actually not part of groups that knew there was a plan that would develop this way.

The sticker price, so far, is 2 trillion dollars (excluding of course the 30 trillion dollars lost in the markets).  In the absence of the virus, I wounder how many lives could be saved if 2 trillion dollars were spent on health care.

Additional though and I am not telling people to disobey orders and recommendations by the way: government bureaucrats are telling businesses to close and stay home, potentially losing everything while they collect 100% of the paycheques. Talking about shared sacrifice.


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## geekette (Mar 21, 2020)

10spro said:


> Strange times we're in. There are reports that kids here are supposedly going into grocery stores and coughing directly on the fresh fruit and vegetables on purpose. I may be old now but I don't ever remember a time when I would have thought that was fun or funny.


No, not funny.  Same people that licked ice cream and put it back??   I'd ask the store to roll tape and grab those kids up, take em down to central booking and scare the hell out of them.  Slap an ankle monitor on them and confine to home, call em on parole.  If they left home, I'd actually book em.


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## missyrcrews (Mar 21, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Don't the governments (local and federal) realize that the panic is going to kill more people than the virus? Every single action has made people more and more scared.


YES YES YES.  THIS.  You should have seen the person in tears at Target last night because she had mistakenly bought ibuprofen, "and they say that you need Tylenol for this virus." Calmed her down the best I could, found Tylenol, and sent her on her way.  The fear and isolation get to people, especially those that don't have good support systems in the first place.  I'm spending my time at Target making eye contact with everyone I can.  I don't approach very close, and I'm washing my hands a TON...but if I'm going to go down, then that's how I'll do it.  Taking care of my fellow humans and loving on them the best way I know how.  I'm cautious, but I steadfastly refuse to panic.

[Reply text extracted from quote]


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## bbodb1 (Mar 21, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Don't the governments (local, state and federal) realize that the panic is going to kill more people than the virus? Every single action has made people more and more scared. I wonder if those that jumped to buy toilet paper first were actually not part of groups that knew there was a plan that would develop this way.
> 
> The sticker price, so far, is 2 trillion dollars (excluding of course the 30 trillion dollars lost in the markets).  In the absence of the virus, I wounder how many lives could be saved if 2 trillion dollars were spent on health care.
> 
> Additional though and I am not telling people to disobey orders and recommendations by the way: government bureaucrats are telling businesses to close and stay home, potentially losing everything while they collect 100% of the paycheques. Talking about shared sacrifice.


This is why there is a discussion in another thread on the need to develop a plan (for future use if needed because it is too late now) on _*how*_ to properly shutdown the country if this kind of isolation is needed again.  Chances are that plan will be needed at some point. 

For those interested, it is this thread....


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## presley (Mar 21, 2020)

chapjim said:


> Far more likely that they are media helicopters.  There's no traffic so the trafficopters are looking for something to report.


They aren't media and they aren't black. I searched images on Google to try to find what they are. The closest thing I can come up with is that the are private helicopters. They look much like the one Kobe Bryant was killed in. 

Meanwhile, here's a picture that was sent to me last night of downtown San Diego.




The Disney Wonder is docked in town. I heard that some of the cruise ships are going to be used for hospital rooms. Not sure if that is the case for San Diego, but if so, maybe I'll get to be on the Disney Wonder next month like I've been planning for a year.


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## DannyTS (Mar 21, 2020)

When this is over, who exactly would want to travel on a cruise ship that was used as a hospital?


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## Brett (Mar 21, 2020)

geekette said:


> No, not funny.  Same people that licked ice cream and put it back??   I'd ask the store to roll tape and grab those kids up, take em down to central booking and scare the hell out of them.  Slap an ankle monitor on them and confine to home, call em on parole.  If they left home, I'd actually book em.



right, if they actually exist 

all sorts of rumors, and "reportedly said" tales of strange things in these pandemic times


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## mdurette (Mar 21, 2020)

presley said:


> The Disney Wonder is docked in town. I heard that some of the cruise ships are going to be used for hospital rooms. Not sure if that is the case for San Diego, but if so, maybe I'll get to be on the Disney Wonder next month like I've been planning for a year.



The Wonder is there because it was scheduled to start a stint out of San Diego yesterday.   I know this because I was planning to be on it


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## mdurette (Mar 21, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> When this is over, who exactly would want to travel on a cruise ship that was used as a hospital?



The article that I read in relation to Carnival offering up their empty ships was to hold people that needed medical attention, but did not have any contagious disease.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Mar 21, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> When this is over, who exactly would want to travel on a cruise ship that was used as a hospital?



RMS - Queen Elizabeth 1 was built in 1938 / Entered service for troop transportation. in1940
and returned to it’s original purpose in 1946.


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## davidvel (Mar 21, 2020)

goaliedave said:


> Canada did this in 1970 during our Quebec based civil war. Canadian Prime Minister said a few days ago he will do it again. Basically a suspension of rights and freedoms, jail on a whim, etc.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk


And so it begins again..


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## Miss Marty (Mar 21, 2020)

The Maryland National Guard service members are dedicated to
serving our communities in response to the COVID-19 pandemic!

" To our friends and neighbors - _there is not a threat of martial law. "_

When you see a Maryland National Guard Humvee on your street or service member(s) setting up tents, know we are providing a services to someone in need!

Whether it's providing transportation support, delivering much needed supplies, or setting up health screening stations - we are working for you!

Facebook
Maryland National Guard


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## Miss Marty (Mar 21, 2020)

Latest Guard update: More than 11,400 troops mobilized for COVID-19 response
					

Every state, three territories and Washington D.C. have activated Army and Air National Guard personnel to assist in efforts to combat the spread of COVID-19.




					www.militarytimes.com


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## CPNY (Mar 21, 2020)

mdurette said:


> Rumors....I stress RUMORS are starting to fly around that the US may impose this weekend.
> I didn't even know what it was, had to look up.
> 
> Basically .. Law enforcement by military.


National guard, tanks and troops have moved into some larger cities. Trains transporting hundreds of tanks rolling into NJ and i heard near Chicago yesterday and this photo taken in NYC 

My brother lives in NJ and there are tanks positioned at certain intersections near testing sites. On Long Island there are the same. They will be placed to maintain order so things don’t get out of control. In Europe you have to fill out a form explaining why you are out of the house. I hope we don’t have that, my printer just broke, I won’t be able to fill out any forms lol.


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## goaliedave (Mar 21, 2020)

Maple_Leaf said:


> "Just watch me." - Pierre Trudeau


Love it! I still remember our civil war of 1970, and the surrendering terrorists coming out of their underground cave on national tv. Easier to do in Canada and the other western democracies though than USA lol, Texas would say f u .

Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk


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## bbodb1 (Mar 21, 2020)

goaliedave said:


> Love it! I still remember our civil war of 1970, and the surrendering terrorists coming out of their underground cave on national tv. Easier to do in Canada and the other western democracies though than USA lol, Texas would say f u .
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk


Where is Joe Bob Briggs when you really need him?


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## Brett (Mar 21, 2020)

goaliedave said:


> Love it! I still remember our civil war of 1970, and the surrendering terrorists coming out of their underground cave on national tv. Easier to do in Canada and the other western democracies though than USA lol, Texas would say f u .
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk



Virginia (rural) might be the same !


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## Chrisky (Mar 21, 2020)

goaliedave said:


> Canada did this in 1970 during our Quebec based civil war. Canadian Prime Minister said a few days ago he will do it again. Basically a suspension of rights and freedoms, jail on a whim, etc.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk



First of all, the October Crisis that happened in 1970 in Quebec was not a Quebec based civil war.
  The  War Measures Act, which has been invoked three times in Canada’s history—during the First and Second World Wars and most recently by Mr. Trudeau’s father, Pierre Trudeau, in 1970 was in response to the kidnapping of James Cross, a British diplomat, and the kidnapping and murder  of a Quebec provincial cabinet minister Pierre Laporte, by the Front de libération du Québec (FLQ). 
This War Measures Act has now been repealed and replaced in 1988, by the _Emergencies Act. _

The _Emergencies Act_ differs from the _War Measures Act_ in two important ways:

A declaration of an emergency by the Cabinet must be reviewed by Parliament
Any temporary laws made under the act are subject to the _Charter of Rights and Freedoms_.
Thus any attempt by the government to suspend the civil rights in Canada, even in an emergency, will be subject to the "reasonable and justified" test under section 1 of the Charter.

Our Prime Minister did not say he would use this act, but it is there to be used if necessary.


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## AnnaS (Mar 21, 2020)

10spro said:


> Strange times we're in. There are reports that kids here are supposedly going into grocery stores and coughing directly on the fresh fruit and vegetables on purpose. I may be old now but I don't ever remember a time when I would have thought that was fun or funny.



Like the ones that lick the ice cream at the store and put it back on the shelf.....

We washed all vegetables and fruits with soap and water as soon as we brought them in.  (We wiped down the wagon with lysol wipes/have gloves before and after and wipe all our groceries with the lysol wipes before putting them away).


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## chapjim (Mar 21, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Don't the governments (local, state and federal) realize that the panic is going to kill more people than the virus? Every single action has made people more and more scared. I wonder if those that jumped to buy toilet paper first were actually not part of groups that knew there was a plan that would develop this way.
> 
> The sticker price, so far, is 2 trillion dollars (excluding of course the 30 trillion dollars lost in the markets).  In the absence of the virus, I wounder how many lives could be saved if 2 trillion dollars were spent on health care.
> 
> Additional though and I am not telling people to disobey orders and recommendations by the way: government bureaucrats are telling businesses to close and stay home, potentially losing everything while they collect 100% of the paycheques. Talking about shared sacrifice.



Don't the governments media (local state and federal national) realize that the panic is going to kill more people than the virus?

There, I fixed it!  Let's put the blame where it belongs.


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## chapjim (Mar 21, 2020)

goaliedave said:


> Canada did this in 1970 during our Quebec based civil war. Canadian Prime Minister said a few days ago he will do it again. Basically a suspension of rights and freedoms, jail on a whim, etc.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk



Canada isn't limited by the US Constitution.


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## geekette (Mar 21, 2020)

Brett said:


> right, if they actually exist
> 
> all sorts of rumors, and "reportedly said" tales of strange things in these pandemic times


Yes, but I want to set a precedent for copy cats.


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## DannyTS (Mar 21, 2020)

A Tale of Two Quarantines
					

I ended up quarantined in both Beijing and Washington during the coronavirus outbreak. The experiences weren’t as different as you might think.




					foreignpolicy.com


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## MrockStar (Mar 21, 2020)

The National Guard is first activated by the Governor for domestic disaster relief Ie Hurricanes, floods,earthquakes, tornadoes Ect. This time is a national heath emergency so in Michigan the Governor has the Guard handing out water distributing food to the needy and seniors and delivering medical supplies to hospitals and clinics. As a recently retired MI guardsman please dont spread misinformation/rumors here we all have enough stress/concern for our fellow Americans and should look for ways we can help/encourage others now. Thanks.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Mar 21, 2020)

In California they're making plans  that if martial law is imposed, they will also call out the Screen Actors Guild, the screenwriters union, the society of camera operators, all of the musicians and rappers - basically everyone involved in the entertainment industry.  Working alongside the military forces, those folks will take care of martial arts.


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## goaliedave (Mar 22, 2020)

chapjim said:


> Canada isn't limited by the US Constitution.


Are you sure? Isn't the USA Constitution the most powerful doc in the world?

Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk


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## goaliedave (Mar 22, 2020)

Chrisky said:


> First of all, the October Crisis that happened in 1970 in Quebec was not a Quebec based civil war.
> The War Measures Act, which has been invoked three times in Canada’s history—during the First and Second World Wars and most recently by Mr. Trudeau’s father, Pierre Trudeau, in 1970 was in response to the kidnapping of James Cross, a British diplomat, and the kidnapping and murder of a Quebec provincial cabinet minister Pierre Laporte, by the Front de libération du Québec (FLQ).
> This War Measures Act has now been repealed and replaced in 1988, by the _Emergencies Act. _
> 
> ...


Yes he did say he would use it. Here in the present 

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## goaliedave (Mar 22, 2020)

Brett said:


> Virginia (rural) might be the same !


I have often speculated what it would take for people to get off their tv watching couches to get a serious separatist movement going in the USA. Pervasive elsewhere.

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## pedro47 (Mar 22, 2020)

Have you read the whole United States Constitution and all the amendments,
lately ?


----------



## pedro47 (Mar 22, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> A Tale of Two Quarantines
> 
> 
> I ended up quarantined in both Beijing and Washington during the coronavirus outbreak. The experiences weren’t as different as you might think.
> ...



This is an excellent article. IMO.


----------



## Eric B (Mar 22, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> Have you read the whole United States Constitution and all the amendments,
> lately ?



Yes.  A better resource, though, for the limitations on the use of the military for law enforcement is available at:



			U.S. Northern Command > Newsroom > Fact Sheets
		


As an aside, here's a link on Marshall Law:









						Marshall Law (TV Mini Series 2002) - IMDb
					

Marshall Law: Created by Rick Held, Bevan Lee, Alison Nisselle. With Lisa McCune, Alison Whyte, William McInnes, Anne Phelan. Set against the backdrop of Melbourne Magistrates' Court, the series stars Lisa McCune and Alison Whye as two young lawyers, the Marshall sisters.




					www.imdb.com


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## Sugarcubesea (Mar 22, 2020)

MrockStar said:


> The National Guard is first activated by the Governor for domestic disaster relief Ie Hurricanes, floods,earthquakes, tornadoes Ect. This time is a national heath emergency so in Michigan the Governor has the Guard handing out water distributing food to the needy and seniors and delivering medical supplies to hospitals and clinics. As a recently retired MI guardsman please dont spread misinformation/rumors here we all have enough stress/concern for our fellow Americans and should look for ways we can help/encourage others now. Thanks.



MrockStar, I'm the only living relative for my 86 year old aunt who lives in a low cost HUD senior complex in Plymouth MI, I dropped off food yesterday for her and we took precautions, I put the food down and then she came and grabbed it.  Will the National Guard help someone that has no car and no way to go to the store?


----------



## geekette (Mar 22, 2020)

Sugarcubesea said:


> MrockStar, I'm the only living relative for my 86 year old aunt who lives in a low cost HUD senior complex in Plymouth MI, I dropped off food yesterday for her and we took precautions, I put the food down and then she came and grabbed it.  Will the National Guard help someone that has no car and no way to go to the store?


Depends on where you are as to the tasks assigned to NatG.  Here, yes, they do food delivery to "shut ins" (but are currently moving medical supplies as our state did get a shipment from national stockpile in the past few days).  I would not be surprised if they help with "welfare checks" as this goes on.


----------



## Maple_Leaf (Mar 22, 2020)

Railfanners are fueling the martial law rumours with videos like these.  Is the transportation of this much military equipment by train a common sight in the United States? Is it just business as usual?


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## geekette (Mar 22, 2020)

Depends on where they are headed.  Maybe borders.  Maybe they are the next hospitals...


----------



## pedro47 (Mar 22, 2020)

I feel the average American citizen do not want Marital Law and does not understand how Marital Law will & would affect their daily movements. IMO.


----------



## silentg (Mar 22, 2020)

We all need to be on the same side, no fussing about spelling or fanning the flames of rumors. Just taking things day by day and waiting for this pandemic to end.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Mar 22, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> I feel the average American citizen do not want Marital Law and does not understand how Marital Law will & would affect their daily movements. IMO.


DW and I have been living under marital law for 46 years now.  We've managed to cope and even thrive.


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## chapjim (Mar 22, 2020)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> DW and I have been living under marital law for 46 years now.  We've managed to cope and even thrive.



I was waiting for someone else to jump on this!  I know some marital lawyers, it that will help.  Actually, they are non-marital lawyers.


----------



## chapjim (Mar 22, 2020)

geekette said:


> Depends on where they are headed.  Maybe borders.  Maybe they are the next hospitals...



If they were eastbound in Gainesville, GA, they are probably headed for the Port of Charleston, or if they hang a right, the Port of Savannah or even the Port of Jacksonville.  Why?  Part of a unit deployment judging from the mix of tracked vehicles, wheeled vehicles, tankers, generators, etc.

There are no borders to defend if you go east from Gainesville, GA.

Relax, people!

Edit:  Another guess.  Since the RR tracks in Gainesville, GA run SW to NE, and the train in the video is heading NE, my bet is all this stuff is going to Ft. Bragg, near Fayetteville, NC.


----------



## chapjim (Mar 22, 2020)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> In California they're making plans  that if martial law is imposed, they will also call out the Screen Actors Guild, the screenwriters union, the society of camera operators, all of the musicians and rappers - basically everyone involved in the entertainment industry.  Working alongside the military forces, those folks will take care of martial arts.



Don't forget the grips.  And the key grips!  And the gaffers, too!


----------



## geekette (Mar 22, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> I feel the average American citizen do not want Marital Law and does not understand how Marital Law will & would affect their daily movements. IMO.


I don't see it happening unless civil unrest breaks out.   We do not currently have domestic wars nor are we being criminalized.  

We do have reports of parking lot squabbles over TP.  I could see those getting a bit worse, but it helps that bars are shut down.  Sounds like cops are making the rounds and even parking outside store entrances.

Otherwise, we aren't "under lockdown" and I wish that phrase would stop being used.  Here, we have a Level 1 emergency + travel advisory, essential travel only.  Our non-essential businesses are still open but it's only a matter of time, and testing.   I can leave my home at will.  I can re-enter my home at will.


----------



## geekette (Mar 22, 2020)

chapjim said:


> I was waiting for someone else to jump on this!  I know some marital lawyers, it that will help.  Actually, they are *non-marital lawyers.*


Good point!


----------



## pedro47 (Mar 22, 2020)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> DW and I have been living under marital law for 46 years now.  We've managed to cope and even thrive.



LOL   I got you 52years,  11months,

17hours,  46seconds with the Commander-in-Chief. Wow!,,


----------



## geekette (Mar 22, 2020)

chapjim said:


> If they were eastbound in Gainesville, GA, they are probably headed for the Port of Charleston, or if they hang a right, the Port of Savannah or even the Port of Jacksonville.  Why?  Part of a unit deployment judging from the mix of tracked vehicles, wheeled vehicles, tankers, generators, etc.
> 
> There are no borders to defend if you go east from Gainesville, GA.
> 
> ...


I was kinda teasing.  I did not look at train direction, just thought we had closed or tightened Canadian border recently.  I would not expect to need heavy artillery up there.  A simple Please oughta do.  

We are getting towards hurricane season in a few months, too.  SE is the right direction.  I hope they are on an infrastructure-related mission.   

I see convoys here frequently.  Stuff is always moving.  Maybe those were all filled with TP rations!


----------



## geekette (Mar 22, 2020)

chapjim said:


> Don't forget the grips.  And the key grips!  And the gaffers, too!


I'll be on the lookout for the best boy!


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Mar 22, 2020)

chapjim said:


> Don't forget the grips.  And the key grips!  And the gaffers, too!


And the dancers too.   Just imagine a line of national guard troops advancing in formation - led by line of ballerinas en pointe!


----------



## Talent312 (Mar 22, 2020)

Perhaps they could use RPG guns to fire rolls of TP at curfew-violators.
.


----------



## MrockStar (Mar 23, 2020)

Sugarcubesea said:


> MrockStar, I'm the only living relative for my 86 year old aunt who lives in a low cost HUD senior complex in Plymouth MI, I dropped off food yesterday for her and we took precautions, I put the food down and then she came and grabbed it.  Will the National Guard help someone that has no car and no way to go to the store?


Call/txt me i will help you.AL


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## Sugarcubesea (Mar 23, 2020)

MrockStar said:


> Call/txt me i will help you.AL


Wow, thank you so much. So very kind hearted.


----------



## Sugarcubesea (Mar 23, 2020)

MrockStar said:


> Call/txt me i will help you.AL


Wow, thank you so much. So very kind hearted.


----------



## Talent312 (Mar 23, 2020)

I agree with this article from www.ccn.com ...

*Stay-At-Home Orders Are Unconstitutional*
[Generally, these orders prohibit people to gather in groups of 10 or more.]

The First Amendment to the Constitution guarantees “the right of the people peaceably to assemble.” The strict prohibition on any law abridging this right applies to state and local governments as well as Congress. Under the Incorporation Doctrine (which applies the Bill of Rights to states through case law via the 14th Amendment), the Supreme Court has fully incorporated the First Amendment guarantees to place these strictures on the states.

There are no exceptions for emergencies in the constitution. Guarantees are guarantees. In a 1990 paper entitled, “Emergency in the Constitutional Law of the United States,” University of Missouri School of Law professor, William B. Fisch wrote: "Neither the term 'emergency' nor any cognate of comparable generality appears in the text of the U.S. Constitution. The Constitution was intended to function in emergencies as well as in normal times, and therefore an emergency affords no excuse for deviating from its terms." Further, Fisch writes that there are three specific emergency power exceptions explicitly granted in the Constitution (in times of war and rebellion), “inviting the conclusion that the Framers intended no other exceptions to be recognized."...


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## Luanne (Mar 23, 2020)

Talent312 said:


> I agree with this article from www.ccn.com ...
> 
> *Stay-At-Home Orders Are Unconstitutional*
> [Generally, these orders prohibit people to gather in groups of 10 or more.]
> ...


I'd rather be safe and possibly help to not spread COVID-19 than be worrying about if the order was constitutional.


----------



## Brett (Mar 23, 2020)

Luanne said:


> I'd rather be safe and possibly help to not spread COVID-19 than be worrying about if the order was constitutional.



right,   maybe the post was intended to help restaurants and other businesses of more than 10 people "assemble peaceably"


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## CalGalTraveler (Mar 23, 2020)

Talent312 said:


> I agree with this article from www.ccn.com ...
> 
> *Stay-At-Home Orders Are Unconstitutional*
> [Generally, these orders prohibit people to gather in groups of 10 or more.]
> ...




Hmmm...somehow I don't think the framers of the constitution were considering drunken spring break parties in Florida as a right of peaceful assembly...


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 23, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Hmmm...somehow I don't think the framers of the constitution were considering drunken spring break parties in Florida as a right of peaceful assembly...
> 
> View attachment 18200


Regardless if they did or didn't, it doesn't make them lawbreakers.

Additional actions I am seeing by a number of local authorities is disturbing. This past weekend people went out on boats and partied. So they shut down marinas and boat ramps. It seems that this disaster is giving people reason to exert control over other people's lives. The power seems to be getting to them...


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## CalGalTraveler (Mar 23, 2020)

@dioxide45 Are you saying it is okay if these teenagers (even some underage, and some publicly intoxicated which also breaks the law) have a right to pass around Covid and then fly back home and spread it to everyone else causing massive economic and health damage to their families and communities?  I see shutting down a boat ramp no different than park rangers closing parks at night to keep teens from partying. However spreading this disease has much greater consequences.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 23, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @dioxide45 Are you saying it is okay if these teenagers (even some underage who are breaking the law) have a right to pass around Covid and then fly back home and spread it to everyone else causing massive economic and health damage to their families and communities?  I see shutting down a boat ramp no different than park rangers closing parks at night to keep teens from partying.


I am not saying it is okay and if they are underage and drinking then yes, they are breaking the law. However, just gathering is not breaking the law. Shutting down boat ramps during normal operating hours is definitely different than closing parks at night. We may not agree with their actions and they may be irresponsible, but we can't always police stupidity, nor should we. Lets not forget the underlying rights we all have in this country.


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## Mongoose (Mar 23, 2020)

Talent312 said:


> I agree with this article from www.ccn.com ...
> 
> *Stay-At-Home Orders Are Unconstitutional*
> [Generally, these orders prohibit people to gather in groups of 10 or more.]
> ...


The Constitution is NOT a suicide pact.  Plus this is not martial law.


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## CalGalTraveler (Mar 23, 2020)

Florida just put in travel restrictions: So they are keeping people out but sending these Covid kids back to infect other communities...

*Miami Herald: DeSantis: NY lockdown started exodus by air. FL arrivals must isolate for 14 days.*

Gov. Ron DeSantis will require anyone on a flight from the New York, New Jersey or Connecticut area to self-isolate for 14 days upon their arrival in Florida in an effort to control the spread of coronavirus, he announced late Monday.



			https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article241432331.html


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## dioxide45 (Mar 23, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> FYI...Florida just put in travel restrictions: So they are keeping everyone out but sending these Covid kids back to infect other communities...
> 
> *Miami Herald: DeSantis: NY lockdown started exodus by air. FL arrivals must isolate for 14 days.*
> 
> ...


Seems like he is doing this to deter people from coming in from states that are locked down?

I am still not sure how they could consider breaking the quarantine criminal? What laws were broken, it looks like executive order, not a law passed by state legislature.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Mar 23, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Seems like he is doing this to deter people from coming in from states that are locked down?
> 
> I am still not sure how they could consider breaking the quarantine criminal? What laws were broken, it looks like executive order, not a law passed by state legislature.



It's a strange law:  a New Yorker can connect via Chicago (another locked down state) and not have to quarantine.


----------



## Mongoose (Mar 23, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Seems like he is doing this to deter people from coming in from states that are locked down?
> 
> I am still not sure how they could consider breaking the quarantine criminal? What laws were broken, it looks like executive order, not a law passed by state legislature.


If they violate self-quarntine and infect someone, that would be both a criminal and civil violation of the law.


----------



## Mongoose (Mar 23, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Seems like he is doing this to deter people from coming in from states that are locked down?
> 
> I am still not sure how they could consider breaking the quarantine criminal? What laws were broken, it looks like executive order, not a law passed by state legislature.


The issue is the mayor of NY told people to go about their lives as normal.  Now they have an infection rate 500% higher than the average for large cities.  This act is in response to his Negligence.  FL has culpability for not closing the beaches.  All those kids are going to fly home and spread it to those that are older, and potentially ill and will result in death.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Mar 23, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> If they violate self-quarntine and infect someone, that would be both a criminal and civil violation of the law.



I think infecting someone would be really difficult to prove unless someone lived in a bubble and this was the only person they came in contact with. 

More likely is if they were stopped on a traffic ticket and it was found they were supposed to be under-self quarantine.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 23, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> The Constitution is NOT a sucicide pact.  *Get over it*.  Plus this is not martial law.


Nothing like simply trying to shut down discussion with bullying,


----------



## Mongoose (Mar 23, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Nothing like simply trying to shut down discussion with bullying,


Sorry. If you feel bullied.  Was not my intent. I edited my post.


----------



## Mongoose (Mar 23, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I think infecting someone would be really difficult to prove unless someone lived in a bubble and this was the only person they came in contact with.
> 
> More likely is if they were stopped on a traffic ticket and it was found they were supposed to be under-self quarantine.


You would certainly have to prove intent.  Italy just passed a law with a sentence of 21 years in prison related to this.  In China there is a phenomenon where bad actors aree purposely trying to infect others by spreading their siliva on elevator buttons and other contact items.


----------



## geekette (Mar 23, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> The issue is the mayor of NY told people to go about their lives as normal.  Now they have an infection rate 500% higher than the average for large cities.  This act is in response to his Negligence.  FL has culpability for not closing the beaches.  All those kids are going to fly home and spread it to those that are older, and potentially ill and will result in death.


Can you give me a date on when this NY mayor allegedly said this, and which city?  NY negligence is an accusation too far, imo.

I don't think we can go by "infection rate" since most areas do not have testing.  You cannot compare them to anywhere else.  

Some of these states not closing down non-essential business have not had enough testing to really know when it would be warranted.  Could have been 3 weeks ago.  Could be 3 weeks from now.  Nobody knows the true rate of infection, it is not possible to know here in USA.


----------



## geist1223 (Mar 23, 2020)

There can be reasonable limitations placed upon a person's Constitutional Entitlements. Nothing is absolute.  Even speech can have limitations. It is a balancing test. The Burden is on the Government to show why the limitation is reasonable.


----------



## Mongoose (Mar 23, 2020)

geekette said:


> Can you give me a date on when this NY mayor allegedly said this, and which city?  NY negligence is an accusation too far, imo.
> 
> I don't think we can go by "infection rate" since most areas do not have testing.  You cannot compare them to anywhere else.
> 
> Some of these states not closing down non-essential business have not had enough testing to really know when it would be warranted.  Could have been 3 weeks ago.  Could be 3 weeks from now.  Nobody knows the true rate of infection, it is not possible to know here in USA.











						School’s still in session: NYC’s Mayor de Blasio won’t cut classes amid coronavirus concerns
					

Even as Los Angeles — which has the nation’s second-largest school district — and big cities across the country closed schools to contain the virus, Mayor de Blasio refused to budge, despite calls from teachers, parents and politicians to keep the students home.




					www.nydailynews.com


----------



## geekette (Mar 23, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> School’s still in session: NYC’s Mayor de Blasio won’t cut classes amid coronavirus concerns
> 
> 
> Even as Los Angeles — which has the nation’s second-largest school district — and big cities across the country closed schools to contain the virus, Mayor de Blasio refused to budge, despite calls from teachers, parents and politicians to keep the students home.
> ...


March 13!  You might want to update your intel.  

Nowhere does it say "live your lives normally".  Instead, the interrelated issues are listed, not that there is no threat.


----------



## Mongoose (Mar 24, 2020)

geekette said:


> March 13!  You might want to update your intel.
> 
> Nowhere does it say "live your lives normally".  Instead, the interrelated issues are listed, not that there is no threat.


LOL.  The point is, his failure to act is the issue and why NY is performing so poorly.  Schools should have been closed way before March 13th.  That is what my comment was related to.  Do your own research if you like and you will see his comments and failure to recognize the threat.









						Mayor Resisted Drastic Steps on Virus. Then Came a Backlash From His Aides. (Published 2020)
					

Mayor Bill de Blasio acknowledged that he had to be persuaded to close schools and restaurants.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## geekette (Mar 24, 2020)

No, de Blasio did not fail to recognize the threat, he had to consider logistics of displaced people and keeping the subway running, and the significant number of food-insecure people, etc.  

Cuomo gets final say anyhow.

Some states still haven't closed schools or done much of anything towards containment.  I'd say Florida leads in reckless disregard.


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## bluehende (Mar 24, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> The Constitution is NOT a suicide pact.  Plus this is not martial law.


  Very interesting concept.  The constitution is definitely a living breathing document.  Not just with the amendments but also with the interpretation.  There is no doubt that crisis situations are a great catalyst for that change in interpretation.  9/11 was a great example of that.  I have yet to see a position that a large group of our society deems necessary not be justified by some part of the constitution.   In this case the preamble insures domestic tranquility.and promote the general welfare.  Could these orders not be argued that they are essential to these basic premises of the constitution itself.


----------



## chapjim (Mar 24, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> Where is Joe Bob Briggs when you really need him?



Why?  You got some drive-in movies that need to be reviewed?


----------



## chapjim (Mar 24, 2020)

bluehende said:


> Very interesting concept.  The constitution is definitely a living breathing document.  Not just with the amendments but also with the interpretation.  There is no doubt that crisis situations are a great catalyst for that change in interpretation.  9/11 was a great example of that.  I have yet to see a position that a large group of our society deems necessary not be justified by some part of the constitution.   In this case the preamble insures domestic tranquility.and promote the general welfare.  Could these orders not be argued that they are essential to these basic premises of the constitution itself.



Sorry, but a living breathing Constitution is no constitution at all.  It's meaning will blow in the wind.


----------



## bbodb1 (Mar 24, 2020)

chapjim said:


> Why?  You got some drive-in movies that need to be reviewed?


Perhaps you missed Goaliedave's post just before mine.....it had a JBB reference in there....


----------



## bluehende (Mar 24, 2020)

chapjim said:


> Sorry, but a living breathing Constitution is no constitution at all.  It's meaning will blow in the wind.


  Here is a good article on the interpretations.  There is a very good paragraph or two on a certain amendment that will not be named here.





__





						Constitutional Topic: Constitutional Interpretation - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net
					

A discussion of the Constitutional Topic of the various ways the Constitution is interpreted



					www.usconstitution.net


----------



## WVBaker (Mar 24, 2020)

chapjim said:


> Sorry, but a living breathing Constitution is no constitution at all.  It's meaning will blow in the wind.



I agree. The whole idea for a "living constitution" and constitutional review, is based in part on the Supreme Court case of Marbury v. Madison back in 
1803. That decision relied on an argument regarding the writing of the constitution which of course, had no validity when the constitution was written.

Our constitution is not some living thing, it's a legal document.


----------



## bluehende (Mar 24, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> I agree. The whole idea for a "living constitution" and constitutional review, is based in part on the Supreme Court case of Marbury v. Madison back in
> 1803. That decision relied on an argument regarding the writing of the constitution which of course, had no validity when the constitution was written.
> 
> Our constitution is not some living thing, it's a legal document.


  So as a policeman you never told any groups of people to disperse?????????  Or anyone to shut up.  Or put down that gun.

Would that be against the constitution as the original premise of this discussion is saying as a constitutional literist.


----------



## goaliedave (Mar 24, 2020)

I think that, especially with this President, the chances of declaring martial law country wide are zero. He stated yesterday he wants to get back to life as usual in weeks, rather than months. No one needs to fear martial law.

Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk


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## geekette (Mar 24, 2020)

goaliedave said:


> I think that, especially with this President, the chances of declaring martial law country wide are zero. He stated yesterday he wants to get back to life as usual in weeks, rather than months. No one needs to fear martial law.


Yeah, I'd be more concerned that I would be dragged to the office at gunpoint...


----------



## goaliedave (Mar 24, 2020)

geekette said:


> Yeah, I'd be more concerned that I would be dragged to the office at gunpoint...


Haha would't that be something. I think most in USA want to get back to work asap anyway.

Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk


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## geekette (Mar 24, 2020)

goaliedave said:


> Haha would't that be something. I think most in USA want to get back to work asap anyway.


not at risk of death!

Not sure about others, but no way I trust my fellow coworkers to stay home when ill.  I can always make more money.


----------



## goaliedave (Mar 24, 2020)

geekette said:


> not at risk of death!
> 
> Not sure about others, but no way I trust my fellow coworkers to stay home when ill. I can always make more money.


Amen!

Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk


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## Rolltydr (Mar 24, 2020)

bluehende said:


> Here is a good article on the interpretations. There is a very good paragraph or two on a certain amendment that will not be named here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is rather obvious to me that if we need courts to “interpret” the Constitution that those interpretations are going to change because the courts themselves continually change. Otherwise, our Founding Fathers would have deemed the Constitution to be clear and definitive and would have seen no reason for courts to interpret it. Therefore, as the courts are made up of living and breathing (and, hopefully, thinking) people, the Constitution itself is living and breathing.


Harry


----------



## Mongoose (Mar 26, 2020)

geekette said:


> Can you give me a date on when this NY mayor allegedly said this, and which city?  NY negligence is an accusation too far, imo.
> 
> I don't think we can go by "infection rate" since most areas do not have testing.  You cannot compare them to anywhere else.
> 
> Some of these states not closing down non-essential business have not had enough testing to really know when it would be warranted.  Could have been 3 weeks ago.  Could be 3 weeks from now.  Nobody knows the true rate of infection, it is not possible to know here in USA.


New York City Now has more cases than all countries but the top five.  Here's De Blasio in his on words just 3 weeks ago.  This and the statements by the NYC Health Commissioner encouraging people to go out is literally the reason why NYC has more cases than Japan, South Korea and the UK Combined!  If they had acted on March 3rd like most other states and major cities with cases had we would not be seeing this.  Tragically this will end the lives of many. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1234648718714036229








						COVID-19 Map - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
					

Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases by the Center for Systems Science and Engineering (CSSE) at Johns Hopkins University (JHU)




					coronavirus.jhu.edu


----------



## geekette (Mar 26, 2020)

Wow, strong words.  Blaming this one guy for all of this, even using the word "literally".   Show me how many states shut down by March 3?  Many didn't nearly St Pat's.  Some still haven't.  Not all schools are closed even now.   

So how did this infection get to New York?  Is that his fault, too?  Where were the tests to help him make a decision based on data?   He's a mayor, that is all.  Where is all the PPE that would help health care workers not get infected by patients and pass that along?  Would you like to lay lay that at his doorstep, too?


----------



## Mongoose (Mar 26, 2020)

geekette said:


> Wow, strong words.  Blaming this one guy for all of this, even using the word "literally".   Show me how many states shut down by March 3?  Many didn't nearly St Pat's.  Some still haven't.  Not all schools are closed even now.
> 
> So how did this infection get to New York?  Is that his fault, too?  Where were the tests to help him make a decision based on data?   He's a mayor, that is all.  Where is all the PPE that would help health care workers not get infected by patients and pass that along?  Would you like to lay lay that at his doorstep, too?


His fault is telling people there was no risk.  You don't need a test to take precautions, the risks were known. I've been tracking this at work since January 20. That is why we implemented a travel ban on high risk countries.  He was trying to make a point and put people at risk.  That is why NYC now 1500% more than any other city.  It's not the people it's a total failure of leadership.


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## goaliedave (Mar 27, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> His fault is telling people there was no risk. You don't need a test to take precautions, the risks were known. I've been tracking this at work since January 20. That is why we implemented a travel ban on high risk countries. He was trying to make a point and put people at risk. That is why NYC now 1500% more than any other city. It's not the people it's a total failure of leadership.


Leaders not taking it seriously blew it for USA. POTUS in January saying "its only 5 cases", Feb 25 clip i posted elsewhere saying "it's fully contained" ... words matter. Many people in USA blindly follow leaders so vitally important. Fauci refusing to be on the podium any longer... POTUS saying in 3 weeks he wants full churches and economy resumed ... no other leader (Brasil excepted) is behaving this way. A month ago, WHO predicted that on April 8 thousands in USA will die. What are people waiting for?

Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk


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## Mongoose (Mar 27, 2020)

goaliedave said:


> Leaders not taking it seriously blew it for USA. POTUS in January saying "its only 5 cases", Feb 25 clip i posted elsewhere saying "it's fully contained" ... words matter. Many people in USA blindly follow leaders so vitally important. Fauci refusing to be on the podium any longer... POTUS saying in 3 weeks he wants full churches and economy resumed ... no other leader (Brasil excepted) is behaving this way. A month ago, WHO predicted that on April 8 thousands in USA will die. What are people waiting for?
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk


I think its mainly denial.  We haven't experienced anything like this is 100 years.  We have largely been untouched by world catastrophes, with a few notable exceptions.  Even 9/11 didn't have this scope of threat to the average citizen.  Many just can't cope with the idea that it can happen here.  Cognitive Dissonance plays a significant role.


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## geekette (Mar 27, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> His fault is telling people there was no risk.  You don't need a test to take precautions, the risks were known. I've been tracking this at work since January 20. That is why we implemented a travel ban on high risk countries.  He was trying to make a point and put people at risk.  That is why NYC now 1500% more than any other city.  It's not the people it's a total failure of leadership.


Point that anger all the way up the chain.


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## Mongoose (Mar 27, 2020)

geekette said:


> Point that anger all the way up the chain.


We can agree to disagree.  I would hope we can agree on the fact that we don't want to live in a Country where the Federal Government mandates across country how all states operate during an emergency.  We are a Republic made up of self-governed states.  Local decisions are best handled locally.  The federal government controls the borders and international travel.  The state and local governments control things like shelter in place, curfews, healthcare and emergency response.  It would be a disaster if we gave the federal government control over these things.


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## goaliedave (Mar 27, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> We can agree to disagree. I would hope we can agree on the fact that we don't want to live in a Country where the Federal Government mandates across country how all states operate during an emergency. We are a Republic made up of self-governed states. Local decisions are best handled locally. The federal government controls the borders and international travel. The state and local governments control things like shelter in place, curfews, healthcare and emergency response. It would be a disaster if we gave the federal government control over these things.


It would be un-American for sure. Disaster is debatable.

Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk


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## geekette (Mar 27, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> We can agree to disagree.  I would hope we can agree on the fact that we don't want to live in a Country where the Federal Government mandates across country how all states operate during an emergency.  We are a Republic made up of self-governed states.  Local decisions are best handled locally.  The federal government controls the borders and international travel.  The state and local governments control things like shelter in place, curfews, healthcare and emergency response.  It would be a disaster if we gave the federal government control over these things.


Sure, but don't hide the truth.  Don't pretend that people won't die, that this is nothing.


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## Mongoose (Mar 27, 2020)

geekette said:


> Sure, but don't hide the truth.  Don't pretend that people won't die, that this is nothing.


Not at all.  This is bad.  Its just not the end of the world.  The initial data from the WHO was flawed.  They estimated 3.8% morbidity rate.  Its actually more like 0.8% which is still 10x more than the flu.  The UK just dropped its fatality stats from 500,000 to 20,000.  People need to take care and follow orders.  We will probably see 100,000 to 400,000 dead here.  Just a guess but better than the 2.2M they were initially predicting.


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## WVBaker (Mar 27, 2020)

goaliedave said:


> Leaders not taking it seriously blew it for USA. POTUS in January saying "its only 5 cases", Feb 25 clip i posted elsewhere saying "it's fully contained" ... words matter. Many people in USA blindly follow leaders so vitally important. Fauci refusing to be on the podium any longer... POTUS saying in 3 weeks he wants full churches and economy resumed ... no other leader (Brasil excepted) is behaving this way. A month ago, WHO predicted that on April 8 thousands in USA will die. What are people waiting for?
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk



Let's not forget that many health officials were downplaying this as well, and still are.

"Essentially the entire problem we are having is due to panic, not the virus," he said. "I was saying this six weeks ago. We have six deaths from the coronavirus, 18,000 from the flu. Why isn't the message, 'Get your flu vaccine?'"

Pinsky, host of "Dr. Drew After Dark," said the coronavirus impact has been milder than initially projected.

"The entirety of the problem now is that people are being pushed into bankruptcy. Travel is down. The supply chain is being interrupted because of panic," he reiterated.

"The flu virus is vastly more consequential, and nobody is talking about that."









						Dr. Drew: Media-driven panic over coronavirus is a bigger problem than the virus
					

"It is a press-induced panic that will have real consequences. It will not be the virus."




					www.wdrb.com
				




Now, we all understand you mean Trump. So, shall I give you other links that show you how the medical field felt back in January?


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## Mongoose (Mar 27, 2020)

goaliedave said:


> It would be un-American for sure. Disaster is debatable.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk


One of the things I love most about this country is that each of the 50 states is an individual experiment.  If you don't like your state move.  If a state is mismanaged and struggles, it doesn't bring down the entire country.  The last thing we need is an all powerful central state reminiscent of China (or the Hunger Games... LOL).


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## Rolltydr (Mar 27, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> We can agree to disagree. I would hope we can agree on the fact that we don't want to live in a Country where the Federal Government mandates across country how all states operate during an emergency. We are a Republic made up of self-governed states. Local decisions are best handled locally. The federal government controls the borders and international travel. The state and local governments control things like shelter in place, curfews, healthcare and emergency response. It would be a disaster if we gave the federal government control over these things.



Ummm, this IS a disaster!


Harry


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## Luanne (Mar 27, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, but this needs to be known.


Yeah, that was back on March 2.  A lot more is known since then. Attitudes have changed. {Some] People have stepped up and become more responsible. But if you want to keep on beating a dead horse, be my guess.


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## Brett (Mar 27, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> One of the things I love most about this country is that each of the 50 states is an individual experiment.  If you don't like your state move.  If a state is mismanaged and struggles, it doesn't bring down the entire country.  The last thing we need is an all powerful central state reminiscent of China (or the Hunger Games... LOL).





unfortunately this virus likes to travel .......  hope it doesn't "bring down the country"


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## Panina (Mar 27, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, but this needs to be known.


There are many dead horses to beat.  Unfortunately it will not fix anything.  We can’t change the bad choices made in the past. 

The choices today and tomorrow are the only ones in our control now.


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## Rolltydr (Mar 27, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> One of the things I love most about this country is that each of the 50 states is an individual experiment. If you don't like your state move. If a state is mismanaged and struggles, it doesn't bring down the entire country. The last thing we need is an all powerful central state reminiscent of China (or the Hunger Games... LOL).



Interesting, then, that you list your location as United States, not the state you are so proud of living in! 

The states need an entity to coordinate the needs of those states during a crisis. Otherwise, they are competing with each other and with limited ability to procure those needs. Like it or not, the federal government has the capabilities required to meet all, or at least most, of the needs of the states. That is one of the reasons we have a United States if America, the location you are obviously so proud to live.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mongoose (Mar 27, 2020)

Rolltydr said:


> Interesting, then, that you list your location as United States, not the state you are so proud of living in!
> 
> The states need an entity to coordinate the needs of those states during a crisis. Otherwise, they are competing with each other and with limited ability to procure those needs. Like it or not, the federal government has the capabilities required to meet all, or at least most, of the needs of the states. That is one of the reasons we have a United States if America, the location you are obviously so proud to live.
> 
> ...


I'm a Proud Coloradoan and a Proud American.  I believe in the Constitution and the Federalist system of government.  Yes, we are the United States.  One country made up of 50 states.  The constitution purposefully limits the power of the federal government.  No the federal government can not meet the needs of all the states nor should it.  They can coordinate and help respond but at the end of the day its the local first responders, doctors and nurses that make the difference.


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## Mongoose (Mar 27, 2020)

Brett said:


> unfortunately this virus likes to travel .......  hope it doesn't "bring down the country"


It won't.  Have faith!


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## Mongoose (Mar 27, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Yeah, that was back on March 2.  A lot more is known since then. Attitudes have changed. {Some] People have stepped up and become more responsible. But if you want to keep on beating a dead horse, be my guess.


The point is it didn't have had to change.  The China travel ban was implemented way back in January.  The risks were known.  They were simply ignored.


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## Mongoose (Mar 27, 2020)

Rolltydr said:


> Ummm, this IS a disaster!
> 
> 
> Harry
> [/QUO





Rolltydr said:


> Ummm, this IS a disaster!
> 
> 
> Harry


Touche'


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## Rolltydr (Mar 27, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> I'm a Proud Coloradoan and a Proud American.  I believe in the Constitution and the Federalist system of government.  Yes, we are the United States.  One country made up of 50 states.  The constitution purposefully limits the power of the federal government.  No the federal government can not meet the needs of all the states nor should it.  They can coordinate and help respond but at the end of the day its the local first responders, doctors and nurses that make the difference.


And when there aren’t enough of those, what does each state do?


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## Rolltydr (Mar 27, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> Not at all.  This is bad.  Its just not the end of the world.  The initial data from the WHO was flawed.  They estimated 3.8% morbidity rate.  Its actually more like 0.8% which is still 10x more than the flu.  The UK just dropped its fatality stats from 500,000 to 20,000.  People need to take care and follow orders.  We will probably see 100,000 to 400,000 dead here.  Just a guess but better than the 2.2M they were initially predicting.


You can’t say what the rate is now because we haven’t had the testing available to make that determination. You’re adding 1+1 and coming up with .8. We don’t know how many people have died because we’ve only been testing for a couple of weeks. We don’t know how many people have had covid19 because we‘ve only been testing for a couple of weeks. We don’t  know how many people have it right now because we don’t have enough test kits available to test everyone the doctors suspect have it!

So, I can choose to believe you when you pull numbers out of your butt that have no relation to anything, or I can choose to believe the medical and scientific community who are using actual real data they are collecting in real time. Fortunately, most of the decision-makers are starting to realize the experts actually know what they’re talking about. I’ll side with the experts.


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## bluehende (Mar 27, 2020)

[Q


Mongoose said:


> Not at all.  This is bad.  Its just not the end of the world.  The initial data from the WHO was flawed.  They estimated 3.8% morbidity rate.  Its actually more like 0.8% which is still 10x more than the flu.  The UK just dropped its fatality stats from 500,000 to 20,000.  People need to take care and follow orders.  We will probably see 100,000 to 400,000 dead here.  Just a guess but better than the 2.2M they were initially predicting.


  You were lied to there.  The Kings College model did not change at all.  They compared the old death total with no mitigation (ps that number did not change) against a modeled death rate if we had reacted way sooner than we did.  The model was run to show the effect of when you self quarantine with the variable being the death rate.


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## Mongoose (Mar 27, 2020)

Rolltydr said:


> You can’t say what the rate is now because we haven’t had the testing available to make that determination. You’re adding 1+1 and coming up with .8. We don’t know how many people have died because we’ve only been testing for a couple of weeks. We don’t know how many people have had covid19 because we‘ve only been testing for a couple of weeks. We don’t  know how many people have it right now because we don’t have enough test kits available to test everyone the doctors suspect have it!
> 
> So, I can choose to believe you when you pull numbers out of your butt that have no relation to anything, or I can choose to believe the medical and scientific community who are using actual real data they are collecting in real time. Fortunately, most of the decision-makers are starting to realize the experts actually know what they’re talking about. I’ll side with the experts.


Have a nice day.


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## Mongoose (Mar 27, 2020)

bluehende said:


> [Q
> 
> You were lied to there.  The Kings College model did not change at all.  They compared the old death total with no mitigation (ps that number did not change) against a modeled death rate if we had reacted way sooner than we did.  The model was run to show the effect of when you self quarantine with the variable being the death rate.


You are right. Thanks for setting me straight.









						No, a COVID Scientist Didn’t Walk Back His Prediction | National Review
					

From the beginning he has said that lockdowns work.




					www.nationalreview.com


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## Rolltydr (Mar 27, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> Have a nice day.


G’day mate!


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## bluehende (Mar 27, 2020)

People   Italy had 919 deaths in the last 24 hrs.  They are less than 1/6 of our population.  Basically that means 6000 deaths a day here.  Every curve and model has us BEHIND Italy in every metric.  There is plenty of blame to go around for the last 40 years.  After aids we knew this was coming some day.  Well it is here.  There are two good ways to limit the damage.  Best is to identify and isolate those that have it.   We are too late for that one.  The other is to reduce dramatically human contacts and isolate and protect vulnerable populations.    The good news that in the scheme of humanity losing 1 or 2 percent is no big deal unless one of those is you or a family member.  Please be empathic to the many people on this board that are in those vulnerable populations.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 27, 2020)

bluehende said:


> After aids we knew this was coming some day. Well it is here.


Really it would be more after SARS, MERS, H1N1. All those within the last 20 years. We had 20 years to plan for this. Not really sure what all we did because I am not in the know of what all goes on behind the scenes, but it seems that we needed to do more. Hindsight is 20/20. I know they need thousands of respirators, but perhaps the next virus will attack something different and they need something else to fight that. Perhaps we need rolling stock piles of medical equipment and protective equipment. A hospital places an order for new product, the product they order comes out of the stock pile and the stock pile is replenished with what they order. That way, nothing really gets too far out of date or sits for a few decades in mothballs to only find out it is garbage. It would also seem that areas of high population density need to plan better also since that seems to be the main issue, at least in the United States.

There will probably be investigations in congress and what after things settle down, most of which will be a waste of time and money and mostly for political reasons. Not really meant to solve anything.


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## Mongoose (Mar 27, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Really it would be more after SARS, MERS, H1N1. All those within the last 20 years. We had 20 years to plan for this. Not really sure what all we did because I am not in the know of what all goes on behind the scenes, but it seems that we needed to do more. Hindsight is 20/20. I know they need thousands of respirators, but perhaps the next virus will attack something different and they need something else to fight that. Perhaps we need rolling stock piles of medical equipment and protective equipment. A hospital places an order for new product, the product they order comes out of the stock pile and the stock pile is replenished with what they order. That way, nothing really gets too far out of date or sits for a few decades in mothballs to only find out it is garbage. It would also seem that areas of high population density need to plan better also since that seems to be the main issue, at least in the United States.
> 
> There will probably be investigations in congress and what after things settle down, most of which will be a waste of time and money and mostly for political reasons. Not really meant to solve anything.


I kicked off our Pandemic Committee in October of 2019.  In the opening presentation I quoted a report from the CDC that we were due for a global pandemic.  I was thinking something worse than SARS and H1N1 or H1N9.  I did not expect this.  This is more like the Spanish Flu.  Thank God our medicine and science has vastly improved since then.


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## goaliedave (Mar 27, 2020)

Mongoose said:


> One of the things I love most about this country is that each of the 50 states is an individual experiment. If you don't like your state move. If a state is mismanaged and struggles, it doesn't bring down the entire country. The last thing we need is an all powerful central state reminiscent of China (or the Hunger Games... LOL).


Definitely the USA way. If people don't like it they should get out or stay out.

Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk


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## bluehende (Mar 27, 2020)

bluehende said:


> People   Italy had 919 deaths in the last 24 hrs.  They are less than 1/6 of our population.  Basically that means 6000 deaths a day here.  Every curve and model has us BEHIND Italy in every metric.  There is plenty of blame to go around for the last 40 years.  After aids we knew this was coming some day.  Well it is here.  There are two good ways to limit the damage.  Best is to identify and isolate those that have it.   We are too late for that one.  The other is to reduce dramatically human contacts and isolate and protect vulnerable populations.    The good news that in the scheme of humanity losing 1 or 2 percent is no big deal unless one of those is you or a family member.  Please be empathic to the many people on this board that are in those vulnerable populations.




In the 80's I worked on a project to develop a therapeutic for aids.  We had a visiting scientist as a consultant.  He gave a talk to basically show why we need to act for a good virucide .  Even as a young researcher his presentation scared the living crap out of me.  So at that point scientists knew it was a matter of time for this or even worse.  I would guess we can go back to 1918 for some to know.  So I can verify back to aids.  I remember his slide on warnings from the cdc.  This was pretty early in the aids problem and there was a high level of concern about an aids like virus that could be spread through any vector involving water or air.  We actually had a class of drugs that showed promise, but were not willing to pay the price for all the clinical trials.  Found it more profitable as we were not a big pharma company to sell the leads.


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