# Change in SVN ELITE benefits



## duke

Received this email from SVO today:

There’s no better way to celebrate the three-year anniversary of the Starwood Vacation Network(SM) Elite program than by enhancing your membership benefits. Our goal is to consistently exceed your expectations, and this year is no exception. 

 After a thorough evaluation of the privileges associated with Starwood Vacation Network Elite membership and our ability to successfully satisfy member requests, we have added three new benefits and modified existing benefits. As a result, the Avis® Preferred Membership, Special Financing and Villa Upgrade benefits have been replaced. The Villa Upgrade benefit was replaced due to a 90-percent occupancy rate at our vacation ownership resorts that prevented us from fulfilling on this upgrade. However, we are confident that the following new benefits will enhance your vacation experiences even further.

New Extended Starpoints Conversion Period

 Instead of the current extended Starwood Preferred Guest® Starpoints® Conversion Period of May 31, Starwood Vacation Network Elite Four- and Five-Star members will now have until October 1—an additional four months—to decide whether or not to convert your Use Weeks to Starpoints for use at more than 850 Starwood hotels and resorts worldwide. That gives you the ability to convert year-round. Please note that this new benefit will be available to you beginning with the conversion period for the 2008 Use Year. 

Earn a 10-percent Premium on Starpoints Conversion

Beginning with the 2008 Use Year, Starwood Vacation Network Elite Four- and Five-Star members will  receive an additional 10-percent premium when converting to Starpoints. For example: If the conversion value of your Use Week is 100,000 Starpoints, you will receive 110,000 Starpoints at the time of conversion.


Earn more Starpoints through Signature Escapes

Starwood Vacation Network Elite members can earn bonus Starpoints for booking an adventure vacation, escorted tour or cruise vacation by visiting mystarcentral.com and selecting Signature EscapesSM, your online travel center. Four-Star members will now earn a total of 4,000 Starpoints for each vacation booked on Signature Escapes, and Five-Star members will earn a total of 5,000 Starpoints for each vacation booked. Please note that this new benefit does not apply to Signature Events.

Starwood Vacation Network Elite Member Travel Services  Whether it’s a family gathering, a romantic getaway or an extravagant vacation beyond your imagining, this exclusive service offers unsurpassed service, customized travel planning and exclusive itineraries to bring you the most extraordinary travel experiences in the world. Within the next seven to ten business days, you will receive a benefits packet by U.S. Postal Mail outlining these enhancements to the Starwood Vacation Network Elite program.

 In addition to these new benefits and service, you can learn more about your membership privileges by participating in our upcoming Starwood Vacation Network Elite webinar on Tuesday July 31, 2007 at 3 p.m. Eastern time. This webinar will focus on your new and existing Starwood Vacation Network Elite benefits to help you get the most value from them when vacationing. You will receive a separate invitation to join us for this informative session in the coming weeks. 

 We look forward to enhancing your Starwood Vacation Network Elite member experiences. If you have any questions regarding your new or existing benefits, please contact your Starwood Vacation Network Elite Special Servicing Team at 888.SVN.ELITE (888.786.3548). 


Kind regards, 
*Suzanne Clark
 Vice President, Owner Services
 Starwood Vacation Ownership


----------



## duke

My suggestion:  If you want the SPG Platinum for Life then you better get it before they hit 2000.  I wouldn't want to bet that they will extend this great benefit.


----------



## Transit

Are they completely removing the villa upgrade benefit?


----------



## kenzie

Duke thanks for the info Ijust called svo to voice my complaint about doing away with villa upgrade they suggested to email ownerres@starwoodvo.com THANKS AGAIN:annoyed: :annoyed: :annoyed:


----------



## Westin5Star

Thanks for the update.  I am not too happy about losing the auto villa upgrade just 1 day after becoming 5*.  I just emailed the address listed that I am considering rescinding my purchase; one of the main reasons that I wanted to get to 5* was for the auto villa upgrades.  I just don't plan to stay at the hotels enough to use the Platinum option.  I would ask that anyone else that is upset about this supposed policy change also email Starwood Elite.


----------



## Negma

Just saw the e-mail and I do not like it. I just wrote them. Time to cause a ruckus.


----------



## Westin5Star

I am calling and I been on hold for several minutes.  I am thinking that I might not be the only person to be calling about this!  Since this notice was just sent out today, I believe that Starwood may consider a change if they are bombarded with calls and emails.  I will do my part; will you?  

If you are already 5* and are unhappy with this then please contact Starwood.  If you are considering purchases that would put you at 5*, and this negative impacts your drive to purchase (hint-hint) then please contact Starwood.  I actually think potential buyers may have more pull in getting this policy reversed!


----------



## DavidnRobin

Unhappily this is my 1000th post - I was hoping to repond to a DeniseM post as I was her 1000th post.

Here is the email address for the sender: Suzanne.Clark@starwoodvo.com

I got an OOTO reply.

I wrote the following...
*****
Dear Suzanne (or to whom it may concern)-

The two key benefits I actually use are Villa upgrades and the Avis membership.  Replacing these with benefits that I would not use in the first place (e.g. StarOption to StarPoint conversion) is not an improvement in benefits not matter how you attempt to spin it.

Why would we ever convert our wonderful Deluxe Ocean-Front Westin Ka'anapali VOI that is worth only 80K StarPoints, or our Westin Princeville VOI that is worth only 86K StarPoints (especially with the StarPoint devaluation that has occurred over the years) to a stay at a hotel of lesser quality for a shorter period of time???

This notice saddens me - we were hoping to purchase even more VOIs to get to 4* and eventually 5* Elite.  Now I question whether it is worth it...

Sadly
David and Robin
*****

I would agree that this gives Elite status less value, and therefore less importance in obtaining a higher Elite status.  Of all the benefits - the villa upgrade has the most value (not to us - but in general).

If the 90% occupancy rate was the reason, then why not keep it as a benefit since they only would need to implement it 10% of the time?


----------



## oneohana

Thanks Westin5Star for the information.  I did not purchase yet, but was seriously looking for that last purchase to get to 5*. With this new information, I'm not sure if getting to 5* is now worth it. The only thing left is the platinum for life. Maybe if they increased the starpoint conversion to 25% it might be worth something. Off to contact *wood and complaign.


----------



## Catazog

*3 Star Elite changes*

I also just got the email from Starwood. The changes for 3 Star Elites are the same, except my Starpoint conversion period has been extended from March 31 to July 1. I'm also irritated about the discontinuation of the upgrade program. Even if they have a "90 percent occupancy rate" I think they should have kept the program and at least given people the chance to be upgraded if they were traveling at an off-peak time. Personally, I do like the 81,000 Starpoints we can get if we convert our 2 BR lockoff. Last year we spent 6 nights in the Westin Paris (when it was still a Cat 5) where regular rooms were going for 450 euros a night (and we were upgraded to a junior suite due to my husband's Plat status from endless business travel). But being able to upgrade to a better view was definitely attractive at WKORV.


----------



## Transit

I logged onto Starcentral to see if there was any additional information on this. It seems they have removed all reference to the elite program.


----------



## DeniseM

If I was Elite I would be majorly PO'd by the elimination of the upgrade perk!      If I was someone considering becoming Elite, that would absolutely eliminate any further consideration for me.  Now I'm glad they didn't have any WKORV OF units available when I was interested!  



DavidnRobin said:


> Unhappily this is my 1000th post - I was hoping to repond to a DeniseM post as I was her 1000th post.


  Ahhhhhh.....that's sweet!  This is my next to the last week of school and I've been super busy, plus I spent the 3-day weekend in Tahoe, so I have not been the "blabber fingers" that I usually am.  (I got a Royal Flush again, too!!!!!)


----------



## mariawolf

Here is what I sent off to Ms Clark!
Dear Ms. Clark,
I am contacting you regarding the change in Elite Benefits.  I am very disappointed in the changes.  As a 3 star elite member I am basically left with no real benefits for my ownership.  The ONLY valuable benefit was the upgrade ability in the resorts.
I own a week 52 at Harborside which is impossible to upgrade but my other week is week 1 at Harborside and I can tell you that it is rarely at 90% occupancy that time of the year.  Even for those areas where it is 90% occupancy it doesn't make any sense not to have this option available to owners.  I would equate it to the situation where there is a "wait list"--I understand you will only wait list the number that you can reasonably assume will ultimately get the date they are wait listed for.  Why would you take away a benefit that at least 10% of your owners would be able to enjoy.
Particularly in the case of your resorts with high maintenance fees such as Harborside (where the increase was over $300 this year!) why would I convert to use a hotel for fewer nights??  You may try to say this is a valuable change but in fact why would anyone convert to get less nights in another location??
I hope you will seriously reconsider your actions as I feel it will take away any incentive for owners to buy additional weeks!
Maria Wolf


----------



## nodge

Maria, you wrote a nicer email than me.  Here is what I emailed SVN:

Dear Suzanne,

I'm sorry to learn that SVN has abandoned (not "modified") the villa upgrade feature for elite members.  I will not likely ever convert to StarPoints, so I (like most of us owners willing to do the math) don't care how long you extend the StarPoint conversion window.  No matter how you spin these changes, I anticipate that you will have many unhappy elite members.

Click on this link to monitor in real-time what we owners think of this new plan:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48154 

On the plus side, I've been circling around buying a new developer unit at Disney Vacation Club, but was debating whether I should use those funds instead to pursue higher SVN elite levels.  SVN's arbitrary willingness to change and outright cancel elite benefits at will certainly helps make my decision easier.

Best of luck selling these rotten fish to potential new elite members.

-[nodge]
SVN 3 Star Elite Owner - Woo Woo.


----------



## wannagotoo

I too sent a letter. We bought 4 units from the developer BECAUSE we would be 5 star elite and have the upgrades. As for the other benefits, the option to convert to starpoints went by the wayside with the point devaluation. The Platinum Concierge Service we had in the past because we were Plat with Starwood anyway. And we would never use the Avis membership because there are much better deals on Priceline. So what is left? We can check in 2 hours earlier and check out 2 hours later? So we bought 3 extra units for that! As much as I detest litigation, I am extremely angry that they are taking away the whole reason that we bought 4 units. There has to be some form of protection or recourse that would dissuade Starwood from using deceptive tactics to sell units. I am sincerely hoping that I am misreading the email.


----------



## DavidnRobin

DeniseM said:


> If I was Elite I would be majorly PO'd by the elimination of the upgrade perk!   If I was someone considering becoming Elite, that would absolutely eliminate any further consideration for me.  Now I'm glad they didn't have any WKORV OF units available when I was interested!
> 
> Ahhhhhh.....that's sweet!  This is my next to the last week of school and I've been super busy, plus I spent the 3-day weekend in Tahoe, so I have not been the "blabber fingers" that I usually am.  (I got a Royal Flush again, too!!!!!)



First - *DeniseM *
I want to thank you.  Your 1000th post to me on my first post was kind and thoughtful - and helped me (us) on our path to RRR&R - with some great vacations to look forward to.  I have tried to return in kind (except where I get censored by a Moderator...   ) Wow! youv'e written 2300+ to my 1000 posts.  You are Queen BabbleFingers.   

I am going to slowdown (not stop) - people interested in SVN resale (and those Rs) will have to either learn to use the advanced search feature -or someone else will need to contribute a 1000 posts.  We have the vacations that we need until 2010.  I am not even a TUG member anymore because... (I'm cheap? Scottish?, lazy...?    It is a bargain for $15 and costs me $1000s and saved me $1000s (and probally caused others to save and spend cost $1000s), but I don't need resort reviews anymore.  We will be happy for a while doing St John, Maui, Scottsdale, (reapeat) and soon add in Kauai.  With a sweet EU vacation in 2009.

To: Westin5Star
You are my hero - congrats!  Buy where you want to go... and you have sweeter SVO VOIs than us (except WSJ...   ).  I need your job (or lack of - DnR are working stiffs with only 3-4 weeks per year - but at least trying to 'Strike Out Cancer'.

Re: the SVN Elite Villa Upgrade BS... (eventhough I wrote a quick email)
If you think about it warpedly like me - this actually could benefit (meaning those who own the best units).  For example: in owning these types of units OF Dlx WKORV. Harborside PLT 2Bd LO, WLR PLT 2Bd, WSJ-VG, PLT WKV prem and/or WPORV.  There is no villa upgrade option - there is no unit to upgrade to.  WPORV has a single view type.  Nowhere to go upwards with these types - is there?

So anyway - no big effect really - Elite is for TS Villa Upgrades, and Platinum is for Hotels (and there are plenty of Platinum SPGs)  If you don't plan on using the Hotel benefit often in being Platinum SPG, and you already have the TS units other SVN Elites are trying to upgrade to.  Then no loss... or am I missing something?

The big question is whether unit location (Floor) is 'first-come/first-served' or time-stamped? (a gamble we took with requalifying our WKORV)  That could be a true benefit for Elite levels (for Robin and I at least).  If SVO was smart - they would make this a benefit.  I think that would be a benefit most would prefer - and would sale more units and reducing the value of resales.  I am amazed how many SVO/SVN management decisions are ass-backwards - I think it is a residue of 'old-school' TS thinking.

Regardless - eventhough I wrote an email in protest (loved the spin of 'celebrating our 3rd anniversary... where going to screw you...') - it doesn't really impact us - but it really sucks.  

SO-SP conversion is a rip in most cases - and I would never do it (I would rent first).  With SP devaluation - SVO is killing themselves (or us actually). 

I can just see SVO Management saying "Gee - let's make SO-SP conversion a better benefit that is a great deal for us, and take away Villa Upgrades so we can rent out for more - and btw will just keep devaluating the SP value - It's a WIN-WIN-WIN!"

If you go deeper - this could even make SVN Mandatory Resales even a better value since a benefit of Elite is less important.  I told you - badbrain...

OK - enough babble...
I will still be lurking - and posting anything that can't be searched for - feel free to PM.

Take Care.  Tuggers are the best. Peace.


----------



## Ekaaj

Hi everyone,

I am somewhat new to this board, but have been lurking for a few weeks.  First, I'd like to say thanks to everyone who has posted information regarding Starwood ownership.  My husband and I have been researching this for some months now, and are headed to Westin Kierland Villas in August on an Explorer package.  (We've been there once already, not using the Explorer pkg, though.  Glad we didn't buy the first time!  I'm a "research it to death" kind of person.  Hubby loves that.   )  Anyway, I'm sure I will have more questions for you experienced owners in the future, but for now I'll just add my two cents on this issue.

I am _appalled _that Starwood has taken away such superior benefits from their Elite owners.  Not only have they taken away some of the more valuable benefits, they have (as far as I'm concerned) insulted you by offering such ludicrous benefits in return.  If I were an owner, I'd be thinking "How dumb do you think we are??!"  Converting to Starpoints makes no sense financially, and the 10% increase amounts to, essentially, squat.  If we had bought a Platinum WKR 2 bedroom lockoff, which gives you only 81,000 Starpoints, and IF we were 4 or 5 star Elite, we'd get an additional 8,100 points??  That doesn't even buy us a day at our favorite resort in town, (Wigwam) and buys us only 1/2 day at the Westin Kierland Resort, in summer no less.  So yeah, that's not even a decent % increase.

Basically, what this does for us is cause us to worry about what would happen in the future, should we become owners.  Any company who is fickle enough to take away the main reason(s) people are trying to become "Elite" is not a company that I put much trust in.  That's just bad business sense all around, IMHO.  And to begin the letter with "Our goal is to exceed your expectations" is silly when they are, in fact, quite missing the bar.

I am absolutely planning on sending an email to Starwood, as well as making a phone call or two.  We were on the fence about buying a resale or two to requalify with developer buys in August, but this pretty much makes the decision for us.  Why would we buy from the developer to become Elite, if this is the kind of treatment we are to expect?

I'll let you know if we, as a _potential _owners, hear anything back.


----------



## Ekaaj

Just saw DavidnRobins' response.  While the "upgrade retraction" may not have much of an impact on certain owners, to me it just gives a sense of how Starwood is willing to treat them.  I definitely get the feeling that they just want to make as much money as possible, regardless of how their owners feel about their policies.  While the bottom line is important, I don't understand why they wouldn't want to have the absolute best benefits out there - wouldn't that bring them more clients in the long run, and thus, more $$ to that bottom line?  I would think so....

Ok, now I'm just rambling. Guess I'm kinda disappointed.  One of the other reasons we originally wanted to buy into Starwood (two years ago) was to be able to convert to Starpoints, b/c we love the Starwood brand of hotels.  But all of the benefits are looking less and less valuable....sigh....


----------



## Westin5Star

The auto villa upgrade did go away. I talked to Starwood this afternoon and it is NEVER available not even if great units are not being used.  The guy I talked to definitely had talking points of how villa upgrades were rarely given because of lack of inventory and just caused alot of problems.  I'm very disappointed in Starwood and I really hope that they reconsider their decision; they will lose alot of future sales if they do not!

David, as for the auto villa upgrades not making a big difference for the "nicer resorts" like Princeville, I totally disagree for my situation.  The main reason that I wanted to get to 5* was for this benefit.  I was planning on booking 2 weeks per year in Princeville, Harborside, Kierland, and Lagunamar using my lockout feature.  I was then hoping that at least half the time I would be upgraded from the smaller or studio half to the larger or premium 1BR.  Especially with kids this is a HUGE deal.  I know that you and Robin prefer the larger half of the lockout as well and at least in Princeville you could have been upgraded most of the time from the studio.

Thank you to everyone that has and will contact Starwood.  I hope that it makes a difference!


----------



## califgal

We're just regular owners ...no star!  We were looking foward to becoming 3* at some point but with no more upgrades, I agree there's not much point.  I did write and complain.  Maybe they will get sick of hearing from all of us and bring it back!

So there's no more upgrades ...at all?!  In April we were even upgraded for our 1 night in the studio, they gave us an oceanview deluxe..I guess that won't even happen any more??!


----------



## DavidnRobin

Westin5Star said:


> The auto villa upgrade did go away. I talked to Starwood this afternoon and it is NEVER available not even if great units are not being used.  The guy I talked to definitely had talking points of how villa upgrades were rarely given because of lack of inventory and just caused alot of problems.  I'm very disappointed in Starwood and I really hope that they reconsider their decision; they will lose alot of future sales if they do not!
> 
> David, as for the auto villa upgrades not making a big difference for the "nicer resorts" like Princeville, I totally disagree for my situation.  The main reason that I wanted to get to 5* was for this benefit.  I was planning on booking 2 weeks per year in Princeville, Harborside, Kierland, and Lagunamar using my lockout feature.  I was then hoping that at least half the time I would be upgraded from the smaller or studio half to the larger or premium 1BR.  Especially with kids this is a HUGE deal.  I know that you and Robin prefer the larger half of the lockout as well and at least in Princeville you could have been upgraded most of the time from the studio.
> 
> Thank you to everyone that has and will contact Starwood.  I hope that it makes a difference!



AhHa - ugrading the small-side to the large-side - makes sense unless you need the LO ability.  I never even considered it an issue, but your right.  Regardless - as this sinks in this is a big blow to SVN Elite members.  We didn't really buy WPORV for the Elite benefit - not sure if we would buy anymore SVO VOIs - going to enjoy the ones we have.

I sent Suzanne this link - hopefully someone at SVO is paying attention.
Good luck - I guess you on the fence on rescinding.


----------



## grgs

Westin5Star said:


> I was then hoping that at least half the time I would be upgraded from the smaller or studio half to the larger or premium 1BR.  Especially with kids this is a HUGE deal.



While I agree that not upgrading the unit size is extremely disappointing, what I'd really like to know is if they will still upgrade the view category for elite members?  

Westin5Star, did Starwood say anything about that?  

Also, I wonder if this will have any impact on the pecking order of how units are assigned.  Will elite members have any edge in room assignments over non-elites?

I don't quite get Starwood's rationale for dropping this benefit--surely one of the most popular of elite membership.  So what if it is only available occasionally--once in a while is still a nice perk!  

Glorian


----------



## duke

*Response from Suzanne Clark at Starwood*

I sent and email to Suzanne Clark at Starwood today...this is what I got back:

Thank you for your email.  I will be out of the office on travel beginning Monday,  May 28 returning Thursday, May 31.  I will have limited access to email and voicemail during these days, however, I will respond to daily emails each evening.  If you need immediate assistance please contact my assistant Scott Stiff at ( 407)-903-4393 or scott.stiff@starwoodvo.com.

Thank you,
Suzanne Clark
Vice President, Owner Services


----------



## duke

*Response from Suzanne Clark's Assistant at Starwood*

Did everyone leave after they sent out the email notice......

Thank you for your email message, however, I will be out of the office beginning at 2:30 pm, Thursday, May 31, returning June 6, with no access to email or voice mail.  For immediate assistance, please contact Selena Rennie at 407.903.4851 or selena.rennie@starwoodvo.com OR Debbie Gross at 407.903.4646 or debra.gross@starwoodvo.com.

If your request can wait, I'll be happy to assist you upon my return.

Kind regards,
Scott W. Stiff, Administrative Assistant to
Suzanne Clark, Vice President, Owner Services
Office: 407.903.4393
Fax: 407.903.4367


----------



## califgal

They sure sound like a bunch of whimps not wanting to deal with all of the fall out!!!


----------



## Denise L

Well, I'm sure it says somewhere in the fine print, "subject to change," right? That's how it always is and always has been.  Just like hotels requiring more Starpoints, the system is constantly being reevaluated.

I think that Starwood made this change because it was no longer something they could even promise as a perk, since most of the time they could not offer it. So they were probably getting Elite members complaining about how they didn't get an upgrade all the time. I suppose they could say instead, "As an Elite member, there is a very small chance that you might get an upgrade, but don't count on it and please don't complain, we are tired of you expecting something that we can't guarantee." I mean, what do you do when the occupancy is so high? It says a lot that our resorts are so popular with owners. I would think that would be a positive thing?

I suppose if Starwood limited the amount of Elites to match the unoccupied units, then they could possibly make the promise of villa upgrades?

I'm not defending the practice of making promises and breaking them, but this is why they have the fine print.  Things are always changing. Lazy river, no lazy river. Two buildings, oh, it's three now.  Room service, yes and then no, and then yes (I think). Pool open 24 hours, then pool hours are posted. Slide opens at 8 AM, then changes to 10 AM.  Just ask for more amenities, oh, sorry, no more extra dishwashing detergent. Plenty of underground parking for everyone, not! When you buy your other EOY, you won't be charged any more for the SVN fee, but we pay $31.30.  

They did promise us fabulous vacations every year, which Starwood delivers on.  I'd buy more weeks if I could afford them, for the vacations, not the perks that may or may not be there tomorrow.  I just hope that the timestamp still rules  .

When we bought our home, the developer told us that they were going to build a park across the street.  Instead, they filled in the area and built an unrelated neighborhood of 20 houses, blocking our view. I'm sure there must have been some fine print somewhere....

Sorry to hear that so many Elites are upset  .


----------



## DeniseM

califgal said:


> We're just regular owners ...no star!
> So there's no more upgrades ...at all?!  In April we were even upgraded for our 1 night in the studio, they gave us an oceanview deluxe..I guess that won't even happen any more??!



Good question! - as "regular" owners, we have been upgraded three times: 

One side of our lock-off - upgraded from OV to OF studio
Rental - upgraded from IV to OV studio
Rental - upgraded from IV to OF studio

*David* - don't be a stranger!


----------



## Denise L

I would guess that upgrades would be offered if available, but should not be expected or demanded. Isn't that what hotels do? (I don't stay in hotels anymore...only timeshares  )


----------



## mariawolf

Well I guess the point is that it looks like even if they are there they won't be offered or given--why let a unit stay empty when an owner could upgrade to it--in most cases they will be able to rent the smaller/less expensive unit as there are always folks bargain shopping.
It is interesting everyone is away based on their auto response e mails.
It will be interesting to see if they even respond.


----------



## Negma

I have sent two letters and will continue to fight this. We have been upgraded several times from the small to large one bedroom and it makes for a nicer experience. 

This seems to be a decision made by people that do not talk to their customers. Keep the pressure on them because this is ridiculus.

I do not buy this 90% argument, then make upgrades avalible for 5*, a reason for others to buy more. Just not good marketing.


----------



## Bill4728

Why does this surprise any of you??

This is the company which choose to make the newest phase of VV voluntary!!  How could any company be selling units in 2 phases of the same resort and have a week be in a mandatory phase and one be in a voluntary phase. I bet they don't tell their buyer that by buying in the voluntary phase they automatically lose more than 1/2 the resale value of the TS.


----------



## Westin5Star

grgs said:


> While I agree that not upgrading the unit size is extremely disappointing, what I'd really like to know is if they will still upgrade the view category for elite members?
> 
> Westin5Star, did Starwood say anything about that?
> 
> Also, I wonder if this will have any impact on the pecking order of how units are assigned.  Will elite members have any edge in room assignments over non-elites?
> 
> I don't quite get Starwood's rationale for dropping this benefit--surely one of the most popular of elite membership.  So what if it is only available occasionally--once in a while is still a nice perk!
> 
> Glorian




The person that I talked to specifically said that there is NO MORE upgrades for views either.  We specifically discussed with regarding WKORV.  

We did not discuss any advantages on timestamps for Elite members but I am pretty sure that they would have mentioned this.  He was trying to say anything he could to make me happy with Starwood's decision.  I will say that he was very nice and professional in defending Starwood.  

He kept referring to the survey that was sent to all Elite members.  He said that the results that came back showed that most 5* Elite members were not even interested in the auto villa upgrade; hard to believe.


----------



## Negma

I replied to that survey and I clearly said that was one of the big benefits. This is truely sad news and we will fight and annoy them until they change.

So I just called, the representative was very nice and took the company line. Apparently there are few upgrades ever available and they have been looking at this for awhile. I must have just been lucky, does not feel like that now. She said many people do convert to points-we discussed that bad decision-but it is the way it is.

She also gave me a snail mail address to complain to as well:
Elite member services
Attn:Kasey Clements
9002 San Marco Court
Orlando Fl  92819

She said I was the first call she had received. I just beleive that there must be a comprimise here. My guess is this change will also reduce the number of phone calls they get.


----------



## formerhater

This is disappointing as the program was designed as an incentive to encourage owners to purchase multiple weeks.  Now that many of us have, they taketh away.  Why not discontinue the perk for new elites, while allowing existing ones to keep the perks they were offered to get them to buy?


----------



## mariawolf

Here is reply I got--
Dear Maria,



Thank you for taking the time to share your concerns with me regarding the change in the villa upgrade benefit. I would like the opportunity to speak with you directly and will be calling you later this afternoon to discuss.



Regards,



Suzanne Clark

Vice President Owner Service

Starwood Vacation Ownership

Office: 407-903-4621

Cell: 407-342-6378


----------



## Henry M.

I got back the exact same e-mail as Maria, word-for-word. Ms. Clark will be busy on the phone this afternoon!

Henry


----------



## DavidnRobin

mariawolf said:


> Here is reply I got--
> Dear Maria,
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to share your concerns with me regarding the change in the villa upgrade benefit. I would like the opportunity to speak with you directly and will be calling you later this afternoon to discuss.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Suzanne Clark
> Vice President Owner Service
> Starwood Vacation Ownership
> Office: 407-903-4621
> Cell: 407-342-6378



Well - I just got off the phone with Suzanne. I was amazed actually - I figured maybe an associate would call.  Nice touch for a VP to call - and a very pleasant call (of course).

It is unlikely that the Villa Upgrade would be reinstated (unless there is an extreme uproar).  I stated - why take the benefit away even if a villa upgrade is only occuring 10% of the time.  She stated that the reason it was discontinued was because of Elite members dissatisfaction of not getting villa upgardes (big surprise there - I have seen this 'Elite'-ism occur in person).  I said - perhaps it would be better to reset Elites expectations - afterall it is based on availability.

Anyway - we had a nice chat.  I got a chance to discuss a few of the issues I see with some of the SVO/SVN practices (SP devaluation) - and that the SO-SP conversion was not a benefit that was useful to us (why would I do this with OF WKORV, WPORV, or WSJ?).  Although - I imagine there are folks who find it very useful - not us.  Therefore - the only real benefit (Villa Upgrade) is gone - why shoot for 4*/5*?  She listened well as I expect a VP to do - and said that she would discuss with the Executive Commitee that ideas that she (and others) is gathering from her discussions with Elite members.

She asked to contact her if there were other things that Elite members would like to see as a benefit. I added - priority in unit location (sorry tuggers - selfish on my part - but as I wrote previously - this would be a major benefit for Elites over non-Elites - causing more folks to buy SVO VOIs - which is their goal afterall)  Don't hate me...

btw, the Avis program was stopped from the Avis side - not theirs.

She also said that she has been reading this thread...  I hope that is true.

Later - off to WSJ in 13 days...

Check out this video link on St John that I saw on VINOW - perfect...
http://www.travelistic.com/user/videos/AndrewBurnett


----------



## Time2Ponder

DavidnRobin said:


> She asked to contact her if there were other things that Elite members would like to see as a benefit. I added - priority in unit location (sorry tuggers - selfish on my part - but as I wrote previously - this would be a major benefit for Elites over non-Elites - causing more folks to buy SVO VOIs - which is their goal afterall)  Don't hate me...



There exists a potential problem with this approach, however: If, as a West Coaster, I arise at 4:45 AM exactly a year in advance to get a great time stamp on my reservation, only to have my initiative blown away by an elite member who reserved in the late afternoon four months after I reserved, I'd get understandably peeved at Starwood. I'm betting that people who own just one or two weeks are the Starwood target audience -- and it would benefit Starwood not to aggravate them. Perhaps a compromise would be to grant elites favored status (i.e., bump them up) over non-elites when they make their reservations on the same day?

At any rate, not knowing exactly what effect the elite program has on views, locations, etc. (as well as how often the program will change) makes me less likely to purchase from the developer in the future.


Kim


----------



## duke

DavidnRobin said:


> She also said that she has been reading this thread...  I hope that is true.



Starwood IS reading and distributing this thread.

They are receiving our e-mails and distributing them also.


----------



## mariawolf

I also got the call and I do think she is viewing this site.
Very pleasant conversation and although I think it is pretty hopeless I would continue the contact.
They are looking at other benefits like a priority check in line/special lounge--not important to me-- never have a problem at Harborside.
Their feeling is why to have most elites unhappy with not ever getting upgraded to the small amount happy with being upgraded.  My point was if there is availability at check in and someone asks it doesn't make sense to not get an upgrade--she did seem to be sympathetic to that point but I think unless folks keep on this no changes will be made.
I agree it was pretty classy to have someone return the calls!
But I still think taking that perk away just doesn't make sense.
Also FYI I did bring up that at St John they provide Starbucks coffee, detergent etc. while at Harborside they don't and she says she will pass that along as there should be some consistency--
Others out there do they provide it at other locations also?
Keep the thread going and productive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## mariawolf

Other interesting info she provided is that 24% of owners convert yearly.
My comment to that is that at somewhere like Harborside where the fee is over $2200 per year it doesn't make sense to do that--I think she said Mission Hills has the highest percentage of owners converting--don't know anything about that resort or why it would be so high there.


----------



## MON2REY

I have no Elite status and am sure I never will.  I have nothing against 4* or 5* Elites getting all the benefits they can but I don't think it should be at a cost to non-Elites.  Increase SP's or discounts, give additional maid service, or....; but do not give them preference as to views or upgrades.  We all paid what we did for our units with the understanding that we will get what we paid for as long as we play by the rules.  If we get up early to make our reservations at the earliest possible moment, then we should be able to reap the benefits of doing so.


----------



## grgs

MON2REY said:


> Increase SP's or discounts, give additional maid service, or....; but do not give them preference as to views or upgrades.



I agree that they shouldn't get preference over owners at a particular resorts, but I'm ok with elites getting some preference of location over other non-elites using StarOptions.  Someone who owns OV at WKORV should expect to get OV (as long as they make their reservation in the 8-12 mo. window).  But for an elite member using StarOptions, it would be reasonable for them to get consideration over a non-elite member. 

I wonder if the importance of time-stamp and pecking order applies once you're inside of the 8 mos. window?

Glorian


----------



## seenett

Let me play devil's advocate :annoyed: 

I have been reading this thread with great interest.  I have been a SVN member since 2001 and I don't have Elite status, but I think I have a good idea of how it works.  I never felt that I should go out and buy more Starwood units just to reach Elite status - eben 5* doesn't seem worth the price.

The ONLY sure thing in Starwood (and other timeshares) is what is recorded on your deed.  That is not subject to change.  Everything else is, including the SVN program and Elite benefits.  It is even possible for a resort's HOA to completely severe all ties with SVN, if they so desire. I wrote the first version of TUG's SVN FAQ in 2002 there have been several changes (i.e. tweaking) of the system - StarOption re-valuations and the introduction of Elite to name a few.  SVN isn't even 10 years old yet and they are still growing like crazy - there will always be issues that will change.

Villa Upgrades:  I totally agree that if there really are very few upgrades available, then the disappointment of not getting one can be a real let down to the owner.  I am sitting on 80,000 United Airline miles that I can never seem to redeem.  UA would rather wait until boarding in the hopes they can sell a full fare first class seat to someone else rather than give it to me.  I would prefer they tell me that upgrades will not be available than keep stringing me along.  No organization wants to set itself up for a negative customer response.  As harsh as it sounds, if Starwood removes the expectation, they also remove the disappointment.  From my understanding, the upgrades were based on availability - meaning (for example) no "non-Elite" ocean front owner would be displaced in favor of an Island View Elite.  BUT, perception is reality.  If a non-Elite IV owner was not upgraded at his home resort but an Elite owner from another Starwood resort was, this perception can also create disappointment.  I'm sure Starwood is hearing complaints from non-Elites who are under the mistaken belief that they should be upgraded at their home resort.

AVIS - I don't know the exact benefit, but was it that much better that AWD codes available by being members of a hotel/airline points program?

STARPOINTS - So now Elites can convert their units to a higher number of StarPoints?  I agree that StarPoint conversion is usually a losing proposition and a 10% increase won't make it a much better deal.  We, as educated TUG members, already know this.  I have a feeling that the vast majority of 5* members have never heard of TUG and probably think this is a great new benefit.  I wonder how many people with SERIOUS money bought 4 or 5 (or more) developer weeks in Hawaii or Harborside just to be Elite,without analyzing the total costs involved?  These are Starwood's ideal owners and they probably think this new program is great. Perception is reaity again.

All this being said, it is just my opinion.  I also agree that any current Elite members have the absolute right to complain to Starwood if they are not happy with the changes.


----------



## DeniseM

seenett said:


> Villa Upgrades:  I totally agree that if there really are very few upgrades available, then the disappointment of not getting one can be a real let down to the owner....As harsh as it sounds, if Starwood removes the expectation, they also remove the disappointment.



I agree with Chris on this - at check-in, I have heard Elite Owners raising holy heck because they expected an upgrade and didn't get one.  Tuggers know the score, but think about the zillions of others out there that BELIEVE everything the sales people tell them and think they are GUARANTEED an upgrade every time!  However, if Starwood is going to remove the formal policy, I think they should still  offer upgrades informally, when available.  I see no sense in letting units stand empty!  Of course, I think they should offer them to us lowly, 1 week owners too!


----------



## duke

The idea that limited villa upgrade availability should lead to removal of that benefit makes little sense.  If the opportunity to upgrade your villa is removed then anyone with an IV unit will have to stay in the IV......even if OV is available.  And those with small 1 br units will have to stay in their small 1 br even if a large 1 br is available.

Under this logic it may be better to wait until <8 months out and make a reservation using StarOptions.  Here your unit designation will not matter and you can reserve a better view or larger unit if available.  Moreover, an owner from another SVN resort may get a better room because he had to make the reservation using StarOptions.

Let's get real, if there is any chance of an upgrade then it is better to have that chance rather than not.  

By the way, these villas are not owned by Starwood.  They are owned by us and we pay a large management fee to have Starwood manage them for "us".


----------



## rocky

I have tried like DavidnRobin, to let people use the search and take a break from posting.....  it's been a year or so now.  I was active back in the day, on the old software.  But I read still to entertain myself and stay on top of what goes on.... and sometimes I just have to weigh-in.

And this change in Elite benefits, in conjunction with the recent devaluation of starpoints values in relation to our units is SO INSULTING it's painful.  And I say that as a non-elite SVO owner.

Seriously.  In about 5 years, when all the new units are nice and worn, and one grows tired of dealing with 16 year old interlopers in the jacuzzi at 10pm that live at other hotels.  And that thimbleful of laundry soap won't wash the two towels they left for the six people in your party starts to get on your nerves...... one can reflect on how at least their Elite membership is worth 4 days at a Four Points Sheraton in Barstow......  and it will make it all worth while.


----------



## Tony&Perry

*Rip Off*

The point is - they used the Elite membership as a sales promotion and people bought expecting this advantage.  Now it is removed.  I am staying at WKV right now and purchased a EOY at Cancun 2 days ago thinking I would lockoff and use the smaller unit for options to exchange and then upgrade if available. Obviously I would pick a low season resort for that and I am sure availability would be there (eg WKV in August).  Now that has gone.  I have called the sales office here, the salesman, manager, quality assurance manager, and emailed 3 people at central saying I would cancel my purchase.  No one returned my messages!!!!  I think that speaks a lot about what to expect in the future.


----------



## wannagotoo

When we were considering buying a unit, the salesperson explained in detail the benefits of the Elite Program. We weighed the options; upgrade to one bedroom from studio/upgrade of view, and decided to buy 3 additional units. The upgrade benefit was the majority of the sales presentation and we bought based on that benefit.  I don't understand how they can remove it because they polled other people and the other people didn't think it was valuable. Starwood offered the upgrade possibility with 5 Star, we accepted and bought 4 units. That's like polling freeway drivers to see if they benefit from hybrids using the carpool lane. Who cares! The people who bought the hybrids bought on the idea that they would have that benefit.


----------



## skim118

I have sympathy for the SVN Elites who were clearly over-promised about the upgrade possibilities.  

The SVN Elites should rightfully get first dibs at upgrade possiblities at the time of check-in at least.

But promising 90/30-day advance upgrade to Elites was a costly mistake from SVN's point of view.  By upgrading a SVN Elite from a studio to a 1-bed unit at the 90-day limit, SVN is preventing another SVN member from getting the full 2-bed-rm lockoff unit for the same week in the ensuing 90 days.

I guess  if you want to stay 2 weeks in a row in a 1-bed rm unit then you should buy 2 1-bed rm weeks.

Unlike Hotel upgrades the difference between a studio unit and the 1-bed rm unit for 1 week is so large I always wondered how sustainable is this financial model for SVN ?


----------



## pharmgirl

We own at WKorv and Marriott KoOlina.  Marriott has gone to completely non smoking even on balconies.  We had just purchased a 2nd week 2 mnths before the non smoking decision.  My husband was furious and no longer wants to go to koOlina.  Same problem with the 5 star upgrade disappearing after people purchased.   With a hotel, if you don't like rules or procedures - just go to another hotel or rent a house.  With a timeshare can't easily just go to another.

We had planned to buy another 2 or 3 weeks in Maui but we no longer will buy timeshares, we will rent additional weeks.

Watch out Starwood - don't kill the golden goose


----------



## Courts

Starwood's plan is strictly MONEY plain and simple. 

Last year I heard a very telling quote from a top executive of Starwood Hotels. He said "we can raise our rates whenever we want". Hmmm, in other words, if you don't like it, go someplace else. 

Unfortunately, SVO's are pretty much stuck with their decision to buy into the SVN. This recent decision coupled with the devaluation of "points" leaves SVO's with little more than another timeshare. 

I would not buy just on the expectation of becoming an "elite member", but it could have been a "tipping point" if indecisive.

There are no longer any "real perks". Yes, you can convert points to airline tickets IF it is an advantage to you, but many of us do not even see that as an advantage.

With suspicions that exchange companies are hoarding units in order to rent,  is that same suspicion popping up with Starwood?

We must wait and see if Starwood will realize it has become an average hotel/timeshare company.

.


----------



## vacationtime1

*Suzanne Clark contacted me also*

I sent e-mails protesting the change in the villa upgrade policy to Suzanne Clark and the other names mentioned in this thread today and received the same e-mail as mariawolf (post #35) and emuyshondt (post #36) this afternoon.  Suzanne called me at my office as she said she would.  She was very aware of the unhappiness that has been created.

A pleasant chat, but I don't see Starwood modifying its new policy.  Suzanne said that the problem with the suite upgrade program is that many elite members now have the *expectation* of getting suite upgrades and are angry when they are not upgraded.  As a result, Starwood has been getting so many complaints from 3*, 4*, and 5* Elites who did not get suite upgrades that it concluded the upgrade program was generating more badwill with Elite members than it was generating goodwill (my words, not hers).  Suzanne said that it is important to Starwood not to over-promise, especially to elite members.  She agreed it was a matter of perception, but because so many elites now *expect* to be upgraded, the program is not working as intended.

As others have already stated in this thread, the problem is the discrepancy between what the sales department promises and what owner services is able to deliver.  We read many posts about how to snag 4* and 5*elite status for the purpose of getting these extra goodies.  The sales department spins the additional benefits as available and likely; it does not have to deliver.

Seenet is right (as usual).  If a promise is not in your property deed, it doesn't exist.


----------



## Courts

vacationtime1 said:


> I sent e-mails protesting the change in the villa upgrade policy to Suzanne Clark and the other names mentioned in this thread today and received the same e-mail as mariawolf (post #35) and emuyshondt (post #36) this afternoon.  Suzanne called me at my office as she said she would.  She was very aware of the unhappiness that has been created.
> 
> A pleasant chat, but I don't see Starwood modifying its new policy.  Suzanne said that the problem with the suite upgrade program is that many elite members now have the *expectation* of getting suite upgrades and are angry when they are not upgraded.  As a result, Starwood has been getting so many complaints from 3*, 4*, and 5* Elites who did not get suite upgrades that it concluded the upgrade program was generating more badwill with Elite members than it was generating goodwill (my words, not hers).  Suzanne said that it is important to Starwood not to over-promise, especially to elite members.  She agreed it was a matter of perception, but because so many elites now *expect* to be upgraded, the program is not working as intended.
> 
> As others have already stated in this thread, the problem is *the discrepancy between what the sales department promises and what owner services is able to deliver.*  We read many posts about how to snag 4* and 5*elite status for the purpose of getting these extra goodies.  The sales department spins the additional benefits as available and likely; it does not have to deliver.
> 
> Seenet is right (as usual).  If a promise is not in your property deed, it doesn't exist.


Now the sales department will only have the starpoints to hype which in itself is an overpromise IMO. 

.


----------



## Time2Ponder

While I sympathize, to some extent, with elites, my thinking is similar to that of seenett and Denise L: Caveat emptor. The only thing that is ever guaranteed an owner is what is clearly spelled out in black and white in the deed. 

I have never known a company to keep its benefits program in stasis: these programs are always changing. Look at what happened with frequent flyer programs: consider how difficult it is to utilize accrued miles for upgrades or tickets.  

To be honest, I'm a bit surprised by what I perceive to be the overreactions here. (It reminds me of the way some Disney fanatics feel put-upon when Disney implements some new policy -- e.g., no heelies in the parks.) Starwood is a company whose business it is to make money, pure and simple. They do provide great vacations, and if they're able to offer some additional benefits to their loyal (elite) customers, then that's just icing on their already-significant cake.


----------



## KOR5Star

I just sent the following letter, which I copied to the local VP in charge of my ownership:

*Suzanne,

This is not a good thing.  Not in the least.  It's hard for me to believe you can truly think of this as a good thing for 5 stars either.

I have used the Villa Upgrade as recently as March.  It is the most valuable 5 Star benefit to me and the reason I bought so many SVN weeks.  My plan was to split my 2BR units, use the 1BR on high demand times and my studio on low demand times to get an upgrade to a 1BR.  You just blew that all away.

Villa upgrades have always been promoted as a benefit "when available".  Your 90% occupancy logic makes absolutely no sense.  I'm slack jawed.  Because you can't offer the benefit all of the time, you've arbitrarily decided not to offer the benefit at any time?!  Why on Earth would you take this away?  How could this be a significant cost to the SVN? 

As for the 10% more Starpoints, that's too little too late.  My Starpoint value has been devalued so drastically in just the 3 years I've been an SVN member that 10% seems like you're rubbing it in, not fixing the situation.

Starwood hotels have been leaping and bounding in category since I bought in 2004.  In just the past few years far more than half the chain has increased significantly.  The increases and rate of increase have been outrageous and far exceeds any excuses about rising hotel rates. 

As an alternative suggestion, why not tie in the Starpoints to a local Starwood hotel?  Most of your locations seem to have sister or closely related properties.  As local demand and rates increase, therefore hotel catagory, why not increase the timeshare's Starpoint value as well?  It seems to me the only fair thing to do.  When we trade the week for Starpoints, do you not rent these rooms in that same local market and enjoy the same increased revenue?  Why should we suffer getting less and less each year while you get more and more?

I don't want to belabor the point, but I can't speak out loudly enough against the demise of the suite upgrade benefit.  Again, it is the reason I am 5 Star! 

As **** **** can attest, I was the happiest guy on Earth when I bought and for the first few years, but lately... with the devaluations, this severe reduction in benefits, the on-going practice of re-qualifying resale weeks... now you're requalifying EY weeks when people only buy EOY!  I'm feeling VERY foolish about my "investment" with Starwood.

Not that I ever thought timeshare was a good "investment".  I compare it to a luxury car.  It's over priced, loses a ton of value the moment you buy it, but it feels great when you use it.  Where timeshare differs from a luxury car is my dealer never makes me feel foolish by taking away critical parts of my car after I bought it or extend the manufacturer's warranty and give loyal customer benefits to people that bought their cars in the used market.

The shine is getting dull on this apple.   Please stop making fools of your loyal owners.

Regards,
****
*


----------



## mariawolf

I wonder just how many folks were really angry when they didn't get an upgrade--I called every day for a month before for my last time (week 52 impossible at Harborside)--didn't really expect it but I didn't call and say how angry I was--I am more angry that they are letting 10% of their rooms (and in the week I usually go to Harborside early January even more) stay empty instead of letting me even try to upgrade!
Everyone expects an upgrade if rooms are empty--check out Trip Advisor--folks on that site that rent from owners or direct from the hotel are always asking how to get upgrades/better views etc.  That is something hotels have always offered and I don't think that started with the consumers!


----------



## jerseygirl

KOR5STAR's post represents the reason "requalifying" was not discussed publicly on TUG for many years.


----------



## Cathyb

Now maybe you Elite Members will know what we early one week purchasers into the Starwood program (Westin Mission Hills on groundbreaking day) are feeling when we keep seeing more and more taken AWAY from us. 

Fortunately back then we were able to trade into Harborside and St. John on one phone call  so we already enjoyed staying there.  Now they are just memories because we one weekers don't have the bennies that Elite has so getting in there is next to impossible. 

We are lucky enough to own a variety of timeshares so Starwood pushing us further down the ownership queue for benefits hasn't stopped our upscale vacationing but it has left a sour taste in our mouth for Starwood in general.


----------



## grgs

Cathyb said:


> Now maybe you Elite Members will know what we early one week purchasers into the Starwood program (Westin Mission Hills on groundbreaking day) are feeling when we keep seeing more and more taken AWAY from us.
> 
> Fortunately back then we were able to trade into Harborside and St. John on one phone call  so we already enjoyed staying there.  Now they are just memories because we one weekers don't have the bennies that Elite has so getting in there is next to impossible.



I don't quite understand your post.  Elites don't have any advantage trading into Harborside or St. John over non-elites that I'm aware of.

As a one week owner, I pretty much feel that Starwood has delivered what I believed I was buying--no more, no less.  So I don't feel that as a one week owner anything as been "taken away."  I'm not being argumentative, just trying to understand what you feel you've lost.  Perhaps  you know something that I don't.

Glorian


----------



## BradC

I'm amused by one inconsistency from Starwood in the discussions listed here:



Westin5Star said:


> He kept referring to the survey that was sent to all Elite members.  He said that the results that came back showed that most 5* Elite members were not even interested in the auto villa upgrade....



...and then...



vacationtime1 said:


> Suzanne said that the problem with the suite upgrade program is that many elite members now have the *expectation* of getting suite upgrades and are angry when they are not upgraded.



I'm not elite, but had been considering it.  I'm certainly not now.  The only benefit I now see of buying yet another week would be that I wouldn't pay any more SVN fees on a third interval.


----------



## nodge

mariawolf said:


> I wonder just how many folks were really angry when they didn't get an upgrade--I called every day for a month before for my last time . . .



I suspect that this is a major reason for the change.  If all 13,000+ of us are calling in daily to try to upgrade, Starwood has to hire more people to answer the phones. If it eliminates this benefit, it can cut its staff accordingly, and the MBA’s in the corporation can all validate their existence by showing how much money they have saved the company.

Hey Starwood, why not do what Hilton et al. have been doing for years and allow us owners to book units through a strange, new technology called “the Internet.”   You could probably cut your phone-in staff even more, and we elite owners, who already love to lurk for deals via RCI’s, II’s, and other exchange company’s “on-line search engines” found on each company’s “web pages” could make a new game of scoring an upgrade via SVN’s very own on-line system.  Just “modify” your upgrade policy to require that upgrades can only be booked online.  If you did, all of your overpaid MBA’s (gee wouldn’t you save even more money if you canned them instead?) would still look good too.

If concert promoters can manage to sell tickets to popular concerts where demand far exceeds supply, SVN can do the same thing with surplus inventory.  It just makes sense to allow your best customers first crack at it, and allowing us to use “the Internet” keeps your administration expenses for this task minimal.

Moreover, I’m pretty darned sure that sending out a “pee on me and tell me it’s raining” email that cancels the elite room upgrade program while throwing a few (very, very few) StarPoints my way if I book an overpriced vacation through your new “exciting” tour company is pretty low in anybody’s playbook on how to win the hearts and minds of us owners. I would think they would teach that in MBA school too, but apparently not.

You’re welcome.
-nodge


----------



## skim118

grgs said:


> I don't quite understand your post.  Elites don't have any advantage trading into Harborside or St. John over non-elites that I'm aware of.
> 
> Glorian



Maybe Cathy was refering to the fact that 4 & 5 stars can have an existing reservation at your home resort and still be on the waitlist for Harborside or WSJ.


----------



## mepiccolo

My husband and I have bought TS's 3 different times now - but we have NEVER sat in on a timeshare sales presentation.  Perhaps that is a really good thing because we didn't make any of our purchases based on false promises or high expectations of what we would get-we bought resale and we bought the view we wanted to be assured we'd get each time (OF).  On our first purchase-after we were totally turned off talking to a WKORV salesman who made statements to us like we were idiots ("we had to buy now, before we left the island because they had to be notarized") we simply walked into a ts resale office in Lahaina and very quickly realized what the developer offered in incentives nowhere came close to the higher price we'd have to pay to purchase through the developer.  I'm wondering now if we'd actually sat in a 2-3 hour sales presentation if we would have been convinced of how wonderful it was to buy directly from the developer.  I guess I'll never know but I'm glad we dodged that bullet.  As an aside our friends who went with us last year to WKORV on a TS offer had to do the sales presentation and when they walked out of the presentation they came over to tell us what they had been told.  My husband and I immediately walked over to the sales office and asked if it was true what they had been told and OF COURSE we were told they misunderstood.  Our friends are not stupid nor were they confused - they were just flat out lied to.   Like cigarette cartons come with a warning timeshare sales contracts should read "Warning-educate yourself on TUG before you make your purchase."


----------



## grgs

Time2Ponder said:


> While I sympathize, to some extent, with elites, my thinking is similar to that of seenett and Denise L: Caveat emptor. The only thing that is ever guaranteed an owner is what is clearly spelled out in black and white in the deed.



Very true--and it's good to be reminded of that!  So buy more weeks to use if you wish, but to do so with the Elite benefits as a major consideration will probably lead to disappointment.  They can change at any moment.



Time2Ponder said:


> To be honest, I'm a bit surprised by what I perceive to be the overreactions here. (It reminds me of the way some Disney fanatics feel put-upon when Disney implements some new policy -- e.g., no heelies in the parks.) Starwood is a company whose business it is to make money, pure and simple. They do provide great vacations, and if they're able to offer some additional benefits to their loyal (elite) customers, then that's just icing on their already-significant cake.



I don't know--I think the reaction is understandable.  These are people who have made a significant investment with Starwood and are very upset at the loss of a particular benefit.  

Having said that, though, I can see Starwood's perspective.  Most owners are not like Tuggers!  Tuggers understand how things work.  How many of us would reserve a studio at WKORV during the 4th of July and expect to be upgraded to a 1 bedroom?  Not a one I would guess--even if the salesperson told us otherwise.  Most of the people buying, though, probably believe what they're told and then feel betrayed that they don't get the upgrade.  There is an argument to be made that it's better to just remove the upgrade benefit and no longer have that used in sales presentations if it leads to disappointment for a majority of owners.  Again, I do understand why existing Elite owners are upset.

Glorian


----------



## Henry M.

Nobody likes to lose a benefit they once had so I think its understandable why Elites would be upset. I do agree, though, that you should buy TS where you want to go and based on the vacation offered not on any side benefits that can be changed at any time. Assume that at some point the property you buy at will be the only place you can go to and think whether that will meet your vacation needs. If not, don't buy there. Hotel points, trading benefits, etc, can all be gone tomorrow.

I can also see Starwood's side, up to a point. I have witnessed many irate customers in Maui, mostly owners at WMH or VV, that come to Maui and are disappointed when they end up in one of the not-so-special rooms. Some ended up on the construction side, others perhaps not as close to the ocean as they expected. When the resort is close to 100% full during 4th of July week, mostly with local owners, some of these guests start yelling and berating the front desk staff because they didn't get what they expected and want the staff to do something despite the fact that all rooms are in use and the best rooms were understandably given to home resort owners. This, however, is the fault of a few bad customers for having unreasonable expectations and then stepping all over the front desk staff. The sales staff is also partially to blame. However, I think the upgrade benefit is great and should be continued as it is - based on availability. When availability is 10%, customers should not expect to get an automatic upgrade. Starwood also needs to educate its sales force to not overpromise - again, not an Elite member benefit problem, but one of other parts of the system. The SPG program offers suite upgrades to SPG Platinum members, but most don't get as irate when there is none available. I haven't heard of SPG thinking of taking the benefit way just because of a few unreasonable customers. The same should go for SVN.

Perhaps member services is just working with what is within their reach to change. They don't control the sales organization. However, this is not in the best interest of owners and SVN. No sense treating a symptom when the disease requires a different medicine. I hope SVO can realize this and change its plan of action regarding this particular benefit. I was even upgraded once when I was no-star from an ocean view to an ocean front studio and I certainly enjoyed it. Blanket removal of upgrade possibilities  takes flexibility out of the system.

Perhaps assigning upgrades 90 days out is too much. A few days before check-in time   the front desk staff could go through its list, sort it by home resort ownership, then elite level, then call-in time and assign upgrades based on available rooms. This would allow all that wanted to make reservations to get a room and use what is left over to give a little something to their most loyal customers. This is better than letting good rooms go unused.


----------



## duke

So, let me get this straight, again, ....  Who owns these units that are being used as upgrades?  Starwood?  NO!,   Starwood does not own them.  One of us owns them and has decided not to use it.  Well then, what is Starwood doing here?

Kinda seems like you call United Airlines and speak to an hourly Customer Service Rep and she/he says "I am not going to even consider you for an upgrade, Mr. Platinum Flyer, because the person before you who called and only flew one time before on this airline complained that he/she could not get an upgrade......

Who's running the show here?  Starwood is on our payroll.  We pay their salaries.  Are we now letting the employees run the Company?


----------



## LisaRex

I can definitely see how elite owners would feel betrayed by this development.  However (and it's easy for me to say this because I'm a 1-week resale owner) I'd wait until the dust settled before I'd call in the cavalry.  

The only thing that _may_ have really changed is the unrealistic _expectation _of being upgraded.  I'd imagine the benefit was always "subject to availability" (I could be wrong) but many people either overlooked that or were misled by unscrupulous salesmen.  And that led many people to be bitterly disappointed when that expectation wasn't met instead of pleasantly surprised when it was.  

Common sense dictates that as more and more properties become sold out, the less likely anyone, including elites, has for a complimentary upgrade. Given that the program GUARANTEES owners their unit if booked within the owner window, then elite owners hoping for a complimentary upgrade are going to get squeezed out.  

However, as the SVO programs grows, that squeeze is going to loosen.    Because the more properties they develop, the more likely owners will use the SVN system to enjoy other properties.  Once those OF and OV owners start traveling, the better it will be for all of us, but especially for elite owners because that will open up inventory and that means a better chance of being upgraded.

Right now all of our options are very limited and most of us are staying at our home property.  But I believe that will change as they develop more resorts.  Aruba, Bermuda, Paris, London, Palm Springs, Sydney --- there are so many really exciting possibilities. _The most important thing to all owners should be management's commitment to building premiere resorts in sought after locations_.  If they hold to that mission statement, then I think that we'll ALL be very satisfied customers.


----------



## mepiccolo

Well said LisaRex.  I agree that rather than leave an OF or OV unit unused they will pleasantly surprise an elite member with an upgrade rather than leave it unused.  So what they are really taking away is the elite members' high expectations and in the process have to deal with less disappointed people.  10% availability for upgrades should not translate to anger when you fall into that 90% of elite members who don't get an upgrade.  Unfortunately it sounds like a lot of heads are being bitten off at the front desk and if I worked there I would be happy that they were implementing this.  But really, the benefit will still be given when it is available so the reality is nothing is lost - it seems Starwood is just asking elite members to be more reasonable - 10% is really such low odds for upgrades anyway I'm not sure why so many elite members are acting like it is a guaranteed privilege as opposed to lucky odds that you will fall into that small 10%  On the one hand I understand the anger of elite members that they are saying this advantage is being taken away, on the other hand, I understand Starwood having less of a headache from elite members with unreasonable expectations (it was only 10%!)  I'd be curious to know from other TUG members who are elite if they are upgraded down the line - a surprise lucky bonus as opposed to an expected benefit:  Translates into happier members the way I see it.


----------



## DavidnRobin

I really do love all the differing Tuggers opinions and perspectives on this issue - and SVOs.  Everybody is right! - well, maybe not SVO entirely.  Whether or not this benefit is deeded (it is not) - two major promises were made and broken - SP value and Villa upgrades.

Why would anyone (knowledgable) buy from SVO now? The salespeople must be livid.

Yes, we like the SVO units and some parts of the system and don't need SO-SP conversion or Villa upgrades.  We more care about floor location for WKV, WKORV, and maybe WPORV (our WSJ is fixed). We can plan 12 months in advance (and do) so the 1st-come/1st served still works.

As said before - the best thing SVO/SVN could do is create a fair and equitable system for reservations and upgrades - AND get with the new century and UPGRADE their archiac computer database and reservation system that would save them (or us as duke puts it) tons of money.

Bottom line for us (and probably other informed SVO owners) - is there is no reason to go through buying other VOIs to get higher Elite status or requal our other resale VOIs.  

IMO, this change in benefit only strengthens the Mandatory resale market.  No real reason to get to Elite status unless you really want better SO-SP conversion benefits - or wait-list possibilities or some fees waived (or having your own lounge and basket of fruit) - or get to SPG Plat if you use their hotel for travel.  Not worth the $10K+ premium spent on buying from SVO over resale.

Sounds like why SVO decided to build future SVO resorts as SVN Voluntary.  

Looks as if we will not being buying the other half of our EOY WPORV, or any other SVO VOIs unless they are Mandatory - and certainly no reason to get the small side unit as the LO.  My belief is that resale units at WKV and WKORV (and I guess VV non-Amelia)  worth >81K SOs just became more valuable.

Time will tell.

added: what do you think they are going to do with those unused units thatt would have gone towards upgrades?  does the word 'rent' comes to mind?  if this rent $ ends up in our pockets (since we are the owners as duke points out) as reduced MFs, then great - not going to hold my breath. More likely will be absorbed into SVO/SVN as added fat.


----------



## seenett

duke said:


> So, let me get this straight, again, ....  Who owns these units that are being used as upgrades?  Starwood?  NO!,   Starwood does not own them.  One of us owns them and has decided not to use it.  Well then, what is Starwood doing here?



This is another misunderstood issue.  Who owns these units?  We don't know, but it *could very well be Starwood* - they are the largest single owner of weeks in SVN.  Unsold weeks belong to Starwood and they are responsible for maintenance and taxes until they are sold.  Even a "sold out" resort doesn't mean that Starwood has sold 100% of the weeks - it means they have sold 100% of the weeks they intended to sell.  They would be crazy not too keep a small percentage of inventory available for emergency room changes or mainenance issues.

Owners who trade for options or points ("_decided not to use it_") surrender their untis to Starwood for them to use as they please.  There are no documents that say these units will be made exclusively available to other SVN owners as trades or upgrades.  Starwood, as the management company, can assign traded-in units or Starwood owned units to any "inventory pool" they want to - including the SVN-owned weeks pool (which can be rented hotel style, used as promos, whatever).

Starwood uses a fairly complicated system to manage all their inventory pools, and overall it is a pretty good system.  This system (as it was once explained to me by an SVN executive) tries to project owner demand for each week at each resort. The projection is based on historical demand, the ratio of sold to unsold weeks in the resorts/seasons, historical % of owners who trade out via II, historical % of internal SVN exchange requests, projected new sales per resort in the next year, projected new SVN resort openings, etc. etc. etc.  

The projections are made 12 months in advance to help divide inventory into the pools, and inventories can be shifted between pools if demand changes.  A good example of how this system benefits SVN members is the II "bulk deposits" Starwood makes.  The deposits are made more than 12 months in advance so owners do not have to worry about "short dated" depsoits in II - owners do not feel the time crunch that non-SVN owners face when deciding whether to deposit weeks into II or not.  MOST of us are probably happy that Starwood does not give II many "Big 3" resort weeks to II for non-SVN members to trade into, leaving more internal SVN inventory available to members.

The bottom line is that unless a resort sells fixed weeks and fixed units, there will need to be some system in place that prioritizes how weeks are assigned and used.  I think Starwood has a pretty good system overall that keeps most members happy most of the time.

I think Starwood made a mistake by offering so many "premiums" to create the Elite program.  Even knowing just a little about their inventory system, I doubt this "villa upgrade" feature would have been sustainable.  They are trying to nip it now to avoid biggeer messes in the future.


----------



## Negma

I talked to Suzanne yesterday for about 1/2 an hour and I give her a lot of credit for calling. I will not rehash the issues already discussed but i do think the upgrades on planes is a great analogy, how many times have you seen demand outweigh the supply, and they stiil do upgrades. 

We discussed the points at length and she does understand and said they are looking at the devaluation issue. But she was also open to other idea's, so to be proactive I sent her a list of some solid (I believe) and some off the wall, you can decide. If you have any additions please send them to her because it can work. I also sent her Marriot's policy on multi-week owners that she was not aware of. 

So here is what I sent, please add to the list and send them to her:
-Additional discounts on food at restaurants 
-Earlier later check-in 
-Concierge to call for additional reservations 
-Discounts of points for hotel stays-ex. 12,000 point stay has a code for     only 10K for elites 
-Increase options for points (as we discussed, these are already de-valued) 
-Bank or borrow options 
-Allow earlier reservation windows, whether 1 hour earlier 8 months out, or a week earlier, etc 
-Bring back upgrades for level 5 
-Ability to make reservations at same location at one time, example Ownership of 148 k in Hawaii could be booked at normal 12 months, but book a consecutive week at the same location using other options at same time 
-no $99 or $35 SVN fee 
-allow me to e-mail my request, but have it reviewed first at request date. 
-The link and explanation from Marriott is enclosed.

I think we CAN help make a difference


----------



## mepiccolo

It was SPECIFICALLY Marriott's multi-week 13-month window privilege which kept us from buying a Marriott timeshare last year.  It is a policy that may make a few people happy but overall decreases the value of owning a timeshare for one week owners and, as in our case, completely keeps a lot of people from wanting to play the Marriott game at all.  Timeshare is addictive -but first you have to get talked into that first purchase and this 13-month window for multi-week owners will keep alot of people turned off to timeshares at all.  Who wants to spend that kind of money to be treated like redheaded stepchildren?  It would be a huge mistake for Starwood to ever make that move.  If Starwood ever stupidly adopted a policy like that we would be one on a long list of people who would sell our Westin timeshare.  I believe it would be in Starwood's best interest to have many people owning their timeshares instead of catering to make just a few happy.


----------



## Negma

I thought about this and knew it would not be popular for single week owners. I can understand why, but i do not think the numbers and the math would cause a big issue. There are 1300 5* members. I do not think based on the growth of Starwood that this would impact availability. Marriot owners can chime in, but keep in mind, this was one of a couiple of ideas, there may be a perk in there somewhere.


----------



## Henry M.

Good idea, Negma. I think a constructive dialog is much better than just getting angry and upset. 

I think the $99/$35 SVN fee is already waived at least for 5*. 

Some benefits I like about the SPG Platinum Program that could be applied here:

1.) Upgrade to best available room at time of check-in. I think they assign these a day or two before arrival. I get a suite about 1/2 the time. Sometimes nothing is available but that's OK too.

2.) Access to the executive lounge at hotels that have them, redgardless of room reserved. Overseas this includes free wine and sometimes other liquor, very nice appetizers (often enough to not need dinner), breakfast, etc.  SVO could have such a lounge for its Elite members and would help bring them together to form a tighter knit community. I've been invited to several management parties. It would be nice to have them more often.

3.) 50% bonus on Starpoints for eligible hotel stays. 

4.) 500 Starppoints as an amenity for staying at a Starwood property (even when staying with Starpoints). 

5.) Late check-out - Already available for Elites.

6.) Free internet access - already available to everyone


----------



## VacationPro

jerseygirl said:


> KOR5STAR's post represents the reason "requalifying" was not discussed publicly on TUG for many years.



I was a bit taken aback by that comment as well--I don't see how the "requalifying" of weeks has anything to do with the 5 star benefits received.  Explaining how you game the system is pretty bold, too--it essentially confirms their point that an upgrade was "expected", even if it was during off-peak times.

My bet is that Starwood will "reinstate" upgrades at check-in or with-in a very narrow window.  I think the existing window is costing them a pretty significant chunk of change.  With this approach, owners will at least feel like they were heard, and Starwood gets what it needs in terms of cost savings.


----------



## LisaRex

DavidnRobin said:


> As said before - the best thing SVO/SVN could do is create a fair and equitable system for reservations and upgrades - AND get with the new century and UPGRADE their archiac computer database and reservation system that would save them (or us as duke puts it) tons of money.



Absolutely agree.  As I've said before, I'd trade weeks for a higher floor before I'd accept a 1st or 2nd floor OF unit for another week.  I think that room assignment has caused a lot of unnecessary angst among all owners.  Some people like me don't even consider booking a unit if it's past one year out.  I'm afraid that I'd be caller 300 and end up with the crappiest room in the place even though I paid $50k for my unit.  My perception is probably light years from reality, but when you're given no information, it's tough to be informed.  

The second biggest concern to me is rising MFs.  For places on the ocean like WKORV and WPORV, I think there are ways to reduce MFs that SVO needs to consider.  For instance, after giving elites complimentary upgrades, if any units were available they could offer lesser view owners, then internal SVN traders, then II traders, a one level view upgrade for $x ($500-1000) and put the money in a pool to lower the MFs for everyone.  Or if they remain unbooked they could offer those units to renters at the highest price they could fetch, with the profits going into the common fund. Of course, that would require having a computerized system and moving away from the archaic system they have now.

***
Unrelated question: I know that folks at voluntary resorts cannot trade within the SVN.  But can owners of mandatory resorts trade INTO these resorts?


----------



## duke

Here's my bet on what SVO will do now:

1.  Reinstate upgrades for 4* and 5* ELITES.

2.  Implement a tiered starpoint bonus for ELITES:  3* 10%, 4* 15%, and 5* 20%.

The discussion here and the e-mails should really have an effect.

Please keep up the comments.

Just my opinion......

duke


----------



## KOR5Star

VacationPro said:


> I was a bit taken aback by that comment as well--I don't see how the "requalifying" of weeks has anything to do with the 5 star benefits received.  Explaining how you game the system is pretty bold, too--it essentially confirms their point that an upgrade was "expected", even if it was during off-peak times.
> 
> My bet is that Starwood will "reinstate" upgrades at check-in or with-in a very narrow window.  I think the existing window is costing them a pretty significant chunk of change.  With this approach, owners will at least feel like they were heard, and Starwood gets what it needs in terms of cost savings.


I'm against requals.  There is no need to do this.  These weeks fly out of inventory without the incentive.  I'm more than a little annoyed that I was told the only way to 5 Star was through buying from the developer, then I find people being allowed to circumvent the system for business reasons that completely escape me.

The "gaming the system", as you put it, is Starwood's own explaination of how you get the most out of your 5 Star membership.  The strategy was presented by a VP in a in NYC in the Sheraton Hotel and Towers.  It was the first in the series of informational seminars for owners.  

...not that anyone would need a presentation to realize how to use an "as available" upgrade benefit most effectively.

How you get the idea that it confirms I would "expect" an upgrade is beyond me.  I even wrote in my letter that it was on an availablity basis.  

It's pretty clear to me you're upset with the idea I'm against requals, so now you're reaching for anything else to smear me... label me a pompous demander of amenities.


----------



## mepiccolo

Negma said:


> I thought about this and knew it would not be popular for single week owners. I can understand why, but i do not think the numbers and the math would cause a big issue. There are 1300 5* members. I do not think based on the growth of Starwood that this would impact availability. Marriot owners can chime in, but keep in mind, this was one of a couiple of ideas, there may be a perk in there somewhere.



But Starwood has to think of all its future sales to new owners.  If the percentage of 5* members is so small, why would they risk making hundreds of their owners unhappy (not to mention discourage potential future buyers) for this minor percentage of 5* members?  It's essentially telling all future potential buyers that they are buying into a two-class system.  That first timeshare sale is the most difficult one to make - why would Starwood make it harder on themselves to make that first sale?


----------



## grgs

mepiccolo said:


> It was SPECIFICALLY Marriott's multi-week 13-month window privilege which kept us from buying a Marriott timeshare last year.  It is a policy that may make a few people happy but overall decreases the value of owning a timeshare for one week owners and, as in our case, completely keeps a lot of people from wanting to play the Marriott game at all.



I have to agree with the above.  I would be extremely disappointed if Starwood implemented an advanced reservations system for elite owners.  Even if someone only owns 1 week, they may have spent $40K+ for that week.  I think it's only fair that they have an equal shot with all other owners at that resort to book the week they want.  I'm sure when Marriott first implemented the 13-month window it wasn't a problem, but overtime it seems to have developed into a huge problem.  To date, I have never heard that any Starwood  owner, booking at 12 mos., has had a problem getting a reservation. I would hate for that to change.

That being said, I appreciate Negma's proactive work on thinking about positive things Starwood can do for elite owners.

Glorian


----------



## VacationPro

KOR5Star said:


> I'm against requals.  There is no need to do this.  These weeks fly out of inventory without the incentive.  I'm more than a little annoyed that I was told the only way to 5 Star was through buying from the developer, then I find people being allowed to circumvent the system for business reasons that completely escape me.
> 
> The "gaming the system", as you put it, is Starwood's own explaination of how you get the most out of your 5 Star membership.  The strategy was presented by a VP in a in NYC in the Sheraton Hotel and Towers.  It was the first in the series of informational seminars for owners.
> 
> ...not that anyone would need a presentation to realize how to use an "as available" upgrade benefit most effectively.
> 
> How you get the idea that it confirms I would "expect" an upgrade is beyond me.  I even wrote in my letter that it was on an availablity basis.
> 
> It's pretty clear to me you're upset with the idea I'm against requals, so now you're reaching for anything else to smear me... label me a pompous demander of amenities.



I'm not upset with anything you said--you obviously have a right to your opinion.  I don't happen to agree, but I'm certainly not trying to "smear" or "label" you.

In you letter, you said "*...the reason I bought so many SVN weeks. My plan was to split my 2BR units, use the 1BR on high demand times and my studio on low demand times to get an upgrade to a 1BR...* "

That sounds like an expectation to me, if it is a reason you bought "so many SVN weeks".

My point is that I think your letter would have been more effective if you would have limited your comments to the item that seems to be most important to you, which I believe is the loss of the upgrade benefit.


----------



## KOR5Star

VacationPro said:


> I'm not upset with anything you said--you obviously have a right to your opinion.  I don't happen to agree, but I'm certainly not trying to "smear" or "label" you.


You wrote *Explaining how you game the system is pretty bold, too--it essentially confirms their point that an upgrade was "expected", even if it was during off-peak times.* It certainly felt like a back hand to me.

BTW, I didn't specify "off-peak".  I pointedly wrote "low demand times".  It's not a subtle difference.  "Off peak" could be any week that is not "peak".  It could still have a decently high demand, but not considered peak.  "Low demand times" are self explanitory.  They are clearly times when the property is under utilized with much vacancy... it is the OPPOSITE of "peak".



VacationPro said:


> In your letter, you said "*...the reason I bought so many SVN weeks. My plan was to split my 2BR units, use the 1BR on high demand times and my studio on low demand times to get an upgrade to a 1BR...* "
> 
> That sounds like an expectation to me, if it is a reason you bought "so many SVN weeks".


Yes, as I stated in my intial response to you, I didn't need a presentation by an SVN VP to tell me how to use the benefit.  That was immediately obvious.   I only pointed out that SVN actually taught Elites to "game the system" in Manhattan.  I didn't say that was the first time I realized how to use the benefit.

Again, note my quote: "low demand times"



VacationPro said:


> My point is that I think your letter would have been more effective if you would have limited your comments to the item that seems to be most important to you, which I believe is the loss of the upgrade benefit.


I wish you would have simply said this to begin with. 

It's all important to me.  The general decline in amenities and priviledges is important to me.  If it were just the upgrades, that's easy to take care of... simply buy more weeks.  I'm already pushing one million StarOptions.  

But it's not "just" the upgrades.  It's the devaluation of StarPoints.  It's going to the owner's update and having them bash what I currently own because they want me to "upgrade" into WKORV-N.  It's letting every Tom, Dick and Harry become 5 Star and compete with me for upgrades.  The exclusivity of 5 Star Elite is gone.  Why even call it "Elite" if people are becoming 5 Star for as little as $89K? 

Yes, I'm glad you said we are entitled to have our conflicting opinions.  Your initial post seemed to say something completely different, hence my response.


----------



## Denise L

I would hope that Starwood would *not* want to follow in Marriott's steps. Starwood would be far better off differentiating itself by being the best of the best (wasn't there an earlier thread about combining all the great features of the various hotel-based systems?), instead of making any system-wide decisions based on pressure from an Elite class.  Clearly they would upset a very large number of regular owners by offering Elites an advantage in making regular reservations at their home resorts  .  Is there anything in the fine print about changing the reservation system on a whim  ?!

If they did, I would want them to give us plenty of notice and offer to buy back our weeks at the price that we paid  so that I could by a Hyatt instead.  I also would see no reason to recommend Starwood to any of my friends or relatives.

This class system is depressing to me, so forgive me if I vent a little.  I thought that by buying a week at a nice timeshare, I could own 1/52 of a five-star villa and imagine for a week that I could always live like that.  Class should not matter. We are all owners. If others can afford to own multiple weeks or are savvy enough to requalify enough resales to be able to combine SOs, etc, then congratulations to them for being able to enjoy so many nice vacations. You can enjoy the very nice welcome basket and the special check-in desk and the ability to convert to Starpoints every year, etc. Sell your intervals and buy a Marriott if you want the 13-month window.


----------



## mepiccolo

Couldn't have said it better Denise.  TUG has definitely taught us one thing: if you want to be assured ocean front, buy ocean front.  If you want to be assured you can get into Hawaii, buy a Hawaiian timeshare, don't buy a California or Arizona timeshare for less money and then be angry when you can't trade into Hawaii.  You can only be assured what is on your deed-you certainly can't count on what TS salespeople tell you.  Buy what you want where you want.   Last year I innocently started one of the longest threads ever on the Marriott site when I inquired about purchasing a week and it got into the whole 13-month reservation priority for multiple week owners.  The multiple week owners were happy as pie about the process but there were several more unhappy one week owners.  Worse yet, the 13-month reservation window is apparently abused by people who purposely reserve the highest demand weeks solely to rent them out for profit.  That really sucks for the other Marriott owners who were hoping to take their family on vacation over Easter break, for example.  If I was in charge of Starwood I would not sacrifice the happiness of many just to make a few happy.  We are all owners and we we all signed on the dotted line about a 12-month reservation window.  I agree with Denise-if you think the 13-month reservation window is so great, go buy Marriott...leave Starwood's superior reservation system as is.


----------



## LisaRex

I absolutely agree giving a priority booking window to elites would cause an uproar among the non-elites, which I assume are the majority of owners. The lack of priority window for elites was one of the key reasons I bought Starwood over Marriott, even though I preferred Marriott's overall program.   Given my husband's career, there will never be a time when he'll be able to take 4 weeks of vacation in one year.  I'm lucky I can get him to take off for 2. So I'll never own more than one week unless and until we retire.  If elite owners were able to hopscotch me at my home resort, I wouldn't have paid a $20k premium for my view.

That being said, I think multiple week owners deserve something significant for their loyalty.  As I said earlier, if home resort owners haven't booked all the better views and/or the larger units, then elite owners should be given a complimentary upgrade. They should also be given priority once the internal trade window opens up since our view category goes out the window once we leave our home resort.


----------



## skim118

There is no way for SVN to modify the 12-month reservation window.  According to the WKORV deed the only person that has reservation priority over a single-week owner at WKORV is a multiple week owner at WKORV.  Clearly the multiple WKORV week owner can book two weeks and obtain a 12 month + 1 week window and so on.

But an SVN Elite member that owns 1 WKORV week & 1 WKV week is not allowed to gain any reservation advantage over a single week owner during the WKORV home-resort preference period.  The home-resort preference rules cannot be changed by SVN.  

They can change the 8-month float window for Network usage & maybe they can give consideration to the SVN Elites during that period.


----------



## califgal

Westin better not go the way of Marriott with the 13 mo advance booking for muliple week owners!  Right now the reservation system is about as fair as can be.  If you call 12 mo. out first thing in the a.m. ...you'll get what you paid for and most likely  a request of a high floor.  

I bet they will continue to upgrade "when available"  just not officially.  I don't think they ever promised upgrades to elites. It was pitched as such from the sales people, but there was the pecking order.

5* said he was against requal's??   Did I read that wrong?  Didn't you get to 5* by following that path?  Or am I confusing posts?

Westin needs to be the leader in customer service and product...not  a follower of Marriottt.


----------



## mesamirage

califgal said:


> Right now the reservation system is about as fair as can be. *If you call 12 mo. out first thing in the a.m*. ....


 
I know everyone is used to what we have... but *NO* one can really be that happy with Starwoods reservation system that requires you to get up at 4:45am, 12 months out to the day, to make a reservation!!??!! Can they?? We spent 10's of thousands of dollars for these resorts and we have to get up at the crack of dawn like its Black Friday after Thanksgiving hoping we can get thru on the phone to get a reservation!! I feel like I'm trying to be the 12th caller into a radio station to win a pair of $10 tickets to a concert! Starwoods reservation system needs to be upgraded to the 21st century with software thats smart, fair, and able to handle on the priority rules that Starwood and us the owners would like to have in place!!

I've only owned Starwood since last year and I'm already fed up with the reservation system.... it really seems to be the weak link in Starwood being able to keep everyone happy. STARWOOD UPGRADE AND FIX OUR RESERVATION SYSTEM!! Its going to be the demise of the greatest collection of resorts that any Timeshare/Hotel company has every put together. Starwood, Figure it out... if you can't, hire some minds that can or pay some 3rd party to find a solution.

Steve

PS Hyatt has the reservation system figured out... yeah every system can be better, but at least its real time, web-based, and fair.


----------



## califgal

Of course the 'system' can be improved, I meant right now bascially we all have the same chance  ....If I can get up at 4:45 am calif time, once or twice a year so can anyone else.  I agree in this age of technology it should be able to be done on the computer.


----------



## mesamirage

Califgal,

Sorry, I didn't really mean that to feel like it was directed at you... its directed at Starwood (and the fact that we have all be conditioned to accept the 6am reservation phone call) and its Starwood that has me and I'm sure so many others frustrated when it comes to the reservation system. I also believe this current issue of taking away the room upgrade perk from the Elite members is just another example of a BROKE reservation system... I know Starwood could keep the perk and handle it correctly, including some method of being able to check on your upgrade status online, if they would just *FIX* the reservation system. Instead some suit at the corporate office decided taking away a perk instead of FIXING the real problem, which is the reservation system, is the best way to solve the issue. INSANE!! Its like taking away a toy from my kids because they can't share it... they both end up with nothing but the complaining goes away. What kind of thinking and problem solving is that by Starwood?? Fire some people who don't understand how to solve this and bring in some fresh thinking. 

Steve


----------



## mariawolf

Just FYI--for those who commented that the front desk might surprise an elite owner at check in--according to Ms. Clark in my conversation this won't happen--that is what I find most frustrating--a larger unit will stay empty even if available--as I think I said previously hotels are the ones who promoted asking for upgrades and to think they are available but not allowed to offer them to elite members makes no sense!


----------



## LisaRex

mariawolf said:


> Just FYI--for those who commented that the front desk might surprise an elite owner at check in--according to Ms. Clark in my conversation this won't happen--that is what I find most frustrating--a larger unit will stay empty even if available--as I think I said previously hotels are the ones who promoted asking for upgrades and to think they are available but not allowed to offer them to elite members makes no sense!



I agree.  Those great OF and OV rooms should never sit empty unless they are being remodeled.  

But as I said before, I wouldn't have a problem if they offered non-complimentary upgrades (with a significant discount for elites) if the money raised went to reduce the MFs and improve the property for everyone.


----------



## LisaRex

KOR5Star said:


> It's all important to me.  The general decline in amenities and priviledges is important to me.  If it were just the upgrades, that's easy to take care of... simply buy more weeks.  I'm already pushing one million StarOptions.



If I were a 5* owner, I'd definitely be ticked.  I'd also be very surprised if Starwood didn't bend over backwards to keep you happy despite the new policy.  I'd love to know what kind of actual experiences you have with upgrades.  If they do, indeed, let rooms sit empty vs. accomodating you, I'd  support a letter writing campaign to get them to change that policy.  I'm not an elite owner, but I think that Starwood should play fair.  

When's your next trip?


----------



## KOR5Star

Denise L said:


> I would hope that Starwood would *not* want to follow in Marriott's steps. Starwood would be far better off differentiating itself by being the best of the best (wasn't there an earlier thread about combining all the great features of the various hotel-based systems?), instead of making any system-wide decisions based on pressure from an Elite class.  Clearly they would upset a very large number of regular owners by offering Elites an advantage in making regular reservations at their home resorts  .  Is there anything in the fine print about changing the reservation system on a whim  ?!
> 
> If they did, I would want them to give us plenty of notice and offer to buy back our weeks at the price that we paid  so that I could by a Hyatt instead.  I also would see no reason to recommend Starwood to any of my friends or relatives.
> 
> This class system is depressing to me, so forgive me if I vent a little.  I thought that by buying a week at a nice timeshare, I could own 1/52 of a five-star villa and imagine for a week that I could always live like that.  Class should not matter. We are all owners. If others can afford to own multiple weeks or are savvy enough to requalify enough resales to be able to combine SOs, etc, then congratulations to them for being able to enjoy so many nice vacations. You can enjoy the very nice welcome basket and the special check-in desk and the ability to convert to Starpoints every year, etc. Sell your intervals and buy a Marriott if you want the 13-month window.


As a 5 Star Elite, I completely agree with you.  I DO NOT want to be able to make reservations any earlier than a one week owner can.  That level of fairness is one of the things that drew me to SVN.  It's the only fair way to run things. 

Yes, caveat emptor, but I would like and expect the major perks and fairness which define a program of membership to remain intact.  It seems unethical to do otherwise.  I would expect the items in writing to represent my minimum benefits in case the management company changes, but if our management company (SVN) remains, they should live up to the promises made when we bought.

I do not see any large unexpected economic challenges from offering Elites upgrades, like promised.

Pardon me for this, but if a member is so... well... STUPID to beleive the upgrade is guarenteed and not on an availability basis, that's their problem and should not be made mine.


----------



## Westin5Star

califgal said:


> Of course the 'system' can be improved, I meant right now bascially we all have the same chance  ....If I can get up at 4:45 am calif time, once or twice a year so can anyone else.  I agree in this age of technology it should be able to be done on the computer.



We don't all have the same chance.  I have a much better chance than most and I don't have to wake up at 4:45am to do it.  At one of my companies, I have a telesales division currently with with 40 employees / dialers.  My IT department makes sure that all dialers are set to Starwood at that time and then my admin books my room.  I'm still sleeping!  Again there is no way to make it 100% fair but this way certainly isn't; except that we can all purchase dialers and hire employees.

I had also commented on page 1 (I believe) of this post that I was told over the phone that better rooms will go unused and that upgrades will NEVER be given.  This could obviously change and they may surprise us buy of right now we are being told NO UPGRADES EVER!

I have another call with Starwood on Monday.  I have a list of things to discuss with them but I will specifically be discussing:
1.  The communication of the change- very insulting- "There's no better way to celebrate the 3rd anniversary"- if you are going to take away a great beneift just say so and give the reason- don't insult everyone's intelligence.
2.  The purpose / reason for the chance- I do not believe the survey excuse; especially after reading this post- once I learn the actual reason for the change I hope to address it.
3.  Possiblity of reversing / modifying the change- I doubt anything can happen on my phone call but it won't hurt to ask and to make some suggestions that would be beneficial to Starwood- lets face it they will lose sales given their new policy- I will at minimum discuss having an unwritten rule of being upgraded if bettter units are not being used.
4.  Suggestions of alternative benefits for Elite- I liked the idea of regular maid service, improved timestamps (same day 12 months out), first use of StarOptions conversions (maybe requests put in at 9 months out to be recorded first thing 8 months out), food and beverage discounts, etc.

I am still just hoping that Starwood made a quick mistake and that they realize it and fix it.  The calls and emails into Starwood will only help the chance of the decision being reversed!


----------



## KOR5Star

skim118 said:


> There is no way for SVN to modify the 12-month reservation window.  According to the WKORV deed the only person that has reservation priority over a single-week owner at WKORV is a multiple week owner at WKORV.  Clearly the multiple WKORV week owner can book two weeks and obtain a 12 month + 1 week window and so on.
> 
> But an SVN Elite member that owns 1 WKORV week & 1 WKV week is not allowed to gain any reservation advantage over a single week owner during the WKORV home-resort preference period.  The home-resort preference rules cannot be changed by SVN.
> 
> They can change the 8-month float window for Network usage & maybe they can give consideration to the SVN Elites during that period.


Not entirely true, but very close.  

As a multiweek owner at WKORV, I CAN NOT book earlier than anyone else when I'm using multiple weeks in a row.

What happens is I call for the first week, 12 months out at the earliest moment.  SVN then sends an internal e-mail, which sits and gathers dust until the following week.  When someone strolls in that day, get their coffee, shoot the breeze with their coworker, scratch their butt, adjust their chair, etc..., they finally get down to booking the reservations in their e-mail pile.  This e-mail pile consists of booking requests for the ENTIRE network.  If it's a peak week, just imagine how many requests are in there.  

From my conversations with SVN, there is ONE person that does this... *ONE!*

Again, if the second week is a high demand week, with lots of early morning calls, it is VERY likely, that a multi-week owner will not get a great timestamp for their second week.

The "unofficial" policy is the original timestamp for the original week is kept as a note attached to all subsequent reservations.  Call me anal, but I want the "official" timestamp to have the very best time I can get for my entire vacation.  I don't want any surprises.


----------



## KOR5Star

LisaRex said:


> If I were a 5* owner, I'd definitely be ticked.  I'd also be very surprised if Starwood didn't bend over backwards to keep you happy despite the new policy.  I'd love to know what kind of actual experiences you have with upgrades.  If they do, indeed, let rooms sit empty vs. accomodating you, I'd  support a letter writing campaign to get them to change that policy.  I'm not an elite owner, but I think that Starwood should play fair.
> 
> When's your next trip?


I received a note from SVN saying they were going to call me about it to discuss.  I truly hope it's a discussion with the possibility for change and not simply telling me the same thing verbally.

I was just there on low demand week in March and received a 1BR upgrade for my studio.  I'll be there again in August.  I did not foresee my chances for an upgrade as good during this time in August as it was, but now with the change, I see my chances for an upgrade as completely gone.

My message to SVN will be that the discomfort and dissappointment experienced by Elite owners from not getting upgrades is a function of their sales team's lies, not an intrinsic function of the benefit.  If properly explained in the first place, there would be absolutely no problem.


----------



## KOR5Star

Westin5Star said:


> We don't all have the same chance.  I have a much better chance than most and I don't have to wake up at 4:45am to do it.  At one of my companies, I have a telesales division currently with with 40 employees / dialers.  My IT department makes sure that all dialers are set to Starwood at that time and then my admin books my room.  I'm still sleeping!  Again there is no way to make it 100% fair but this way certainly isn't; except that we can all purchase dialers and hire employees.
> 
> I had also commented on page 1 (I believe) of this post that I was told over the phone that better rooms will go unused and that upgrades will NEVER be given.  This could obviously change and they may surprise us buy of right now we are being told NO UPGRADES EVER!
> 
> I have another call with Starwood on Monday.  I have a list of things to discuss with them but I will specifically be discussing:
> 1.  The communication of the change- very insulting- "There's no better way to celebrate the 3rd anniversary"- if you are going to take away a great beneift just say so and give the reason- don't insult everyone's intelligence.
> 2.  The purpose / reason for the chance- I do not believe the survey excuse; especially after reading this post- once I learn the actual reason for the change I hope to address it.
> 3.  Possiblity of reversing / modifying the change- I doubt anything can happen on my phone call but it won't hurt to ask and to make some suggestions that would be beneficial to Starwood- lets face it they will lose sales given their new policy- I will at minimum discuss having an unwritten rule of being upgraded if bettter units are not being used.
> 4.  Suggestions of alternative benefits for Elite- I liked the idea of regular maid service, improved timestamps (same day 12 months out), first use of StarOptions conversions (maybe requests put in at 9 months out to be recorded first thing 8 months out), food and beverage discounts, etc.
> 
> I am still just hoping that Starwood made a quick mistake and that they realize it and fix it.  The calls and emails into Starwood will only help the chance of the decision being reversed!


I agree with all your numbered points.

As for the phone thing, we've had this discussion before.  

I'm comfortable with the incredibly small group of people having an unfair advantage because they have access to a phone bank like you do.  I'd bet we could count the number of SV owners that have this advantage only using our fingers and probably only using one hand.

If the reservation system goes on the web, thousands "in the know" will be able to use bots for book their reservations in milliseconds. Those not in the know will get bots from people in the know.

Looking at my sister's experience with timeshare reservations in an internet based system, I highly suspect the rampant use of bots.  I've witnessed her get denied when she was trying at the very first moment available.  She's a multiweek owner an even has an advantage over "lesser" owners... and still got beat.  The rampant use of bots seems like the best explaination.


----------



## Fredm

*Upside*

While the frustration and disappointment over loss of upgrades is understandable, the expanded window for the StarPoints election may be getting short shift here. As is true for all use alternatives, its value is directly related to how you would take advantage of it. Nonetheless, a lot can be said for the ability to now substitute real value in the case of an 11th hour cancellation. Prior to this change any reservation date post the first quarter risked being lost without opportunity to obtain a substitute value. Upgrades have a  value on the margain, but saving a use year's value can be worth much more when confronted with its loss. From this perspective, the extension until October virtually insures against loss of use. Perhaps not an equivelent benefit to ugrade entitlement, but certainly a redeeming feature, IMHO. As all such benefits are subject to change, surely this is not the end of life as we know it.
Just a perspective.


----------



## rfb813

*Posted by Emuyshondt:*

"Perhaps assigning upgrades 90 days out is too much. A few days before check-in time the front desk staff could go through its list, sort it by home resort ownership, then elite level, then call-in time and assign upgrades based on available rooms. This would allow all that wanted to make reservations to get a room and use what is left over to give a little something to their most loyal customers. This is better than letting good rooms go unused."

In reading all the posts in this thread it appears that the above comment is worthy of real consideration.  I would expect that the rooms manager for the resort will have to assign the locations of all owners and guests at the resort for a specific week. I know this is how Marriott works its system and assigns rooms: first priority to owners at the resort within their season, second to owners at the resort outside of their season, third to owners of other Marriott resorts exchanging into the resort and fourth to non-Marriott owners exchanging into the resort from II.  Why can't Starwood apply this system with the consideration of Elite status and time stamp when assigning rooms.  If a upgrade is available under this priority system, great.  I agree "This is better than letting good rooms go unused".


----------



## mepiccolo

KOR5Star said:


> I agree with all your numbered points.
> 
> As for the phone thing, we've had this discussion before.
> 
> I'm comfortable with the incredibly small group of people having an unfair advantage because they have access to a phone bank like you do.  I'd bet we could count the number of SV owners that have this advantage only using our fingers and probably only using one hand.
> 
> If the reservation system goes on the web, thousands "in the know" will be able to use bots for book their reservations in milliseconds. Those not in the know will get bots from people in the know.
> 
> Looking at my sister's experience with timeshare reservations in an internet based system, I highly suspect the rampant use of bots.  I've witnessed her get denied when she was trying at the very first moment available.  She's a multiweek owner an even has an advantage over "lesser" owners... and still got beat.  The rampant use of bots seems like the best explaination.



Getting up at the crack of dawn once or twice a year is far more acceptable than this web alternative.  Sometimes using advanced technology is not progressive.  I'd prefer to keep the reservation system as a phone call than making it on the internet but for Starwood to upgrade their computer system so that they can actually give you the number of the unit you will get on that phone call.  Ticketmaster does this on a much larger scale so Starwood should be able to offer this as well.  Frankly, if you want the best view/floor possible then getting up out of bed to make a phone call is the fairest way to let everyone have the same opportunity.  I want to compete against other humans for a busy week - not against computers set up by their owners who are still in bed.


----------



## DavidnRobin

KOR5Star said:


> If the reservation system goes on the web, thousands "in the know" will be able to use bots for book their reservations in milliseconds. Those not in the know will get bots from people in the know.
> 
> Looking at my sister's experience with timeshare reservations in an internet based system, I highly suspect the rampant use of bots.  I've witnessed her get denied when she was trying at the very first moment available.  She's a multiweek owner an even has an advantage over "lesser" owners... and still got beat.  The rampant use of bots seems like the best explaination.



Sorry- had to comment on this...
You are incorrect about this.

This may have been used in the past - or with an outdated systems.  The so-called 'bots' are easily beaten out by a code that can't be scanned and needs to be inputted by hand - have you bought a concert ticket lately? Probaby not - since you have people buy them for you...

Now if you want to have your hired hands all trying to play a numbers game and get the code entered as quick as possible like with the phone system- have at it.

I have been dealing with SVO/SVN about issues with my data in their system - and I know from experience in dealing with them - that their existing system is broken.

The one thing SVO/SVN could do to both help themselves and owners is to get a modern database and reservation system.  You know all that clicking sound you here when talking to them - using a 'backspace' key to erase info because they are using some outdated UNIX based program written over a decade ago (if not longer)...  We have dozens of people at my work (and certainly 1000s throughout the SF Bay Area working a 100s of companies) that could easily create a workable modern database and linked reservation system.

Obviously - a phone system needs to be in place - along with a computer system - but even it the associate is entering this info -it starts with their database and with a reservation software shell - you are not competing with bots - just different and better ways to serve thier customers and reducing their and therefore our costs.


----------



## KOR5Star

mepiccolo said:


> Getting up at the crack of dawn once or twice a year is far more acceptable than this web alternative.  Sometimes using advanced technology is not progressive.  I'd prefer to keep the reservation system as a phone call than making it on the internet but for Starwood to upgrade their computer system so that they can actually give you the number of the unit you will get on that phone call.  Ticketmaster does this on a much larger scale so Starwood should be able to offer this as well.  Frankly, if you want the best view/floor possible then getting up out of bed to make a phone call is the fairest way to let everyone have the same opportunity.  I want to compete against other humans for a busy week - not against computers set up by their owners who are still in bed.


Yes.  Well said.  It would be nice to know your location at the time of booking.

The only downside I can see is if a unit goes off-line for some reason... fire, health hazard, etc...  In that case, if we all knew where we were supposed to be, there could be no recovery for the person who had the misfortune of booking that particular room.  They would have to drop to the bottom of the food chain and get whatever is left over.  If we didn't know where we were, the managment would have the opportunity to shift everyone right.  We'd all get just a little less than we were supposed to, but nobody would arrive expecting a particular veiw and now had the worst room in the house.


----------



## KOR5Star

rfb813 said:


> *Posted by Emuyshondt:*
> 
> "Perhaps assigning upgrades 90 days out is too much. A few days before check-in time the front desk staff could go through its list, sort it by home resort ownership, then elite level, then call-in time and assign upgrades based on available rooms. This would allow all that wanted to make reservations to get a room and use what is left over to give a little something to their most loyal customers. This is better than letting good rooms go unused."
> 
> In reading all the posts in this thread is appears that the above comment is worthy of real consideration.  I would expect that the rooms manager for the resort will ahave to assign the locations of all owners and guests at the resort for a specific week. I know this is how Marriott works its system and assigns rooms: first priority to owners at the resort within their season, second to owners at the resort outside of their season, third to owners of other Marriott resorts exchanging into the resort and fourth to non-Marriott owners exchanging into the resort from II.  Why can't Starwood apply this system with the consideration of Elite status and time stamp when assigning rooms.  If a upgrade is available under this priority system, great.  I agree "This is better than letting good rooms go unused".


Yes, when I receive my call, this is something I would ask for.  It's a reasonable compromise.

It's really no different than the hotels operate.  As Platinum, I arrive with a particular catagory of room booked.  *IF AVAILABLE*, I get upgraded at check-in... not months before check-in.. it's done right at check-in.


----------



## Time2Ponder

duke said:


> The discussion here and the e-mails should really have an effect.




I'm not so sure about this. Approximately 30 people have participated in this thread, with varying degrees of opinion -- in other words, out of the thousands of elites in existence, not many have found their way here to complain. 

Tuggers are people who are aware of the subtle ins and outs of TS programs; I'm guessing that most owners, however, (even including elites) are fairly unaware of how their programs work, and thus aren't really all that concerned about the changes.

JMO. YMMV.


----------



## KOR5Star

DavidnRobin said:


> Sorry- had to comment on this...
> You are incorrect about this.
> 
> This may have been used in the past - or with an outdated systems.  The so-called 'bots' are easily beaten out by a code that can't be scanned and needs to be inputted by hand - have you bought a concert ticket lately? Probaby not - since you have people buy them for you...


No need to be sorry.  

Yeah, I'm an electrical engineer in the semiconductor industry.  I know a routine (and so do at least thousands of others) that can take that image, warp it, and run a CR algorithm as it goes.  It takes about 500ms on a typical PC.  It's not 100% accurate, so it may take a couple/few attempts.

Basically the bot fills out the form.  The user tells the bot where the warped security code is by identifying the characters immediately before it and away she goes.  If it's wrong the host will reject and provide a different image... which is the very thing that makes this algorithm successful.  If it can't warp and recognize one, the host throws it away and provides and different warp.  

So if it tries two or three times, big deal.  The majority of the time will be the host rejecting it.  It might take a couple/few seconds instead of the milliseconds I initially stated.



DavidnRobin said:


> We have dozens of people at my work (and certainly 1000s throughout the SF Bay Area working a 100s of companies) that could easily create a workable modern database and linked reservation system.
> 
> Obviously - a phone system needs to be in place - along with a computer system - but even it the associate is entering this info -it starts with their database and with a reservation software shell - you are not competing with bots - just different and better ways to serve thier customers and reducing their and therefore our costs.


I generally agree.  Their system certainly seems wanting, but it might not be an old system.  It might just be a bad one.  Do a search on All American.  It's a semiconductor distributor that just imploded because they tried to upgrade their system and it was a disaster because they made the wrong choice.  So much of a disaster that the whole company crashed and burned and either is no more or shortly will be no more.


----------



## DavidnRobin

KOR5Star said:


> No need to be sorry.
> 
> Yeah, I'm an electrical engineer in the semiconductor industry.  I know a routine (and so do at least thousands of others) that can take that image, warp it, and run a CR algorithm as it goes.  It takes about 500ms on a typical PC.  It's not 100% accurate, so it may take a couple/few attempts.
> 
> Basically the bot fills out the form.  The user tells the bot where the warped security code is by identifying the characters immediately before it and away she goes.  If it's wrong the host will reject and provide a different image... which is the very thing that makes this algorithm successful.  If it can't warp and recognize one, the host throws it away and provides and different warp.
> 
> So if it tries two or three times, big deal.  The majority of the time will be the host rejecting it.  It might take a couple/few seconds instead of the milliseconds I initially stated.
> 
> 
> I generally agree.  Their system certainly seems wanting, but it might not be an old system.  It might just be a bad one.  Do a search on All American.  It's a semiconductor distributor that just imploded because they tried to upgrade their system and it was a disaster because they made the wrong choice.  So much of a disaster that the whole company crashed and burned and either is no more or shortly will be no more.



Sorry - not a semi-techno but if you want to talk bioscience... the techno jargon is fine, but I am approaching from a pragmatic side.

Each reiteration takes time (try this on ticketmaster)... for what??? a reservation?  that can be made by phone or internet (in ideal world)?  perhaps on those super hard to get weeks - maybe...? (likely not even then)

you are not trying to get front row ickets to The Police - you actually have to be an Owner (at 12 months) or the SOs (at 8 months) to use - so creating a specialized system (and effort) to thwart it is not worth it

All I am saying (along with many others).
1) the SVO/SVN database system is really archaic and needs to be at 100%
2) the reservation software and database link needs to be upgraded to the 21st century
3) the status quo is costing everyone time and money
4) 90/10 rule here - make a reservation system that deals with 90%(+) of the owner needs (both by phone and web-based)

SVO/SVN is suffering from 'old-school' mentality driving by Marketing/Sales - including policies - especially that start off with 'congratulations on our 3rd year - prepare to bend over...'


----------



## Tony&Perry

*Self-referal bonus points*

Has any SVN elite received a self-referal bonus when buying a new unit. Marriott does this but I would like to know if SVN NEVER does it or if it is negotiable.
Thanks


----------



## Denise L

Tony&Perry said:


> Has any SVN elite received a self-referal bonus when buying a new unit. Marriott does this but I would like to know if SVN NEVER does it or if it is negotiable.
> Thanks



I have asked and friends have asked. The answer has been no self-referral Starpoints.


----------



## nodge

*Wiggle Room in SVN's Elite Enrollment Contract*

Hey Starwood Tuggers,

There may be wiggle room in SVN’s elite enrollment contract that suggests that the villa upgrade benefit CANNOT be cancelled at will by SVN.

I found and dusted off my “Starwood Vacation Network Elite Level Enrollment Form” (Rev. 7-11-05) that was part of the SVN Elite enrollment procedure.  The following two clauses are relevant here:

“4.  I understand that some benefits, such as unit upgrades, early check-in and late check-out, are subject to availability and resort and SVN Rules and may not be available at all SVN resorts.  Unit size upgrades, if available, will be permitted into the next size unit (e.g. studio upgrade into a one bedroom unit) and are only available for units with the same number of keys.”

“9.   I understand that all SVN Rules shall apply to SVN Elite Members except as specifically provided in this Enrollment Form and related SVN Elite Membership documents.  I further understand that SVN Elite, including eligibility criteria and each feature and benefit of SVN Elite, is subject to additions, modifications and/or termination at any time.  While it is anticipated that the SVN Operator will continue to offer SVN Elite, my decision to purchase the Interest is based primarily on my use of my Interest at my Resort, and not on the continued availability of SVN Elite.”

At first glance, these two clauses appear to adequately  preserve SVN’s right to cancel the room upgrade benefit provided in section 4, but the highlighted “except as specifically provided in this Enrollment form” term in clause 9 definitely clouds this issue.  

Moreover, none of the other benefits of SVN elite membership besides the villa upgrade benefit are specifically listed in the “Starwood Vacation Network Elite Level Enrollment Form” (Rev. 7-11-05).”   Rather, the other benefits (late check-out, platinum for life, etc.) are listed in a bullet chart provided in a glossy, fancy-pants welcome to elite packet that accompanied the official “enrollment form.”

In light of the fancy-pants brochure which lists ALL the benefits of SVN elite membership AND the fact that the villa upgrade feature is the only benefit that is expressly listed in the actual "Starwood Vacation Network Elite Level Enrollment Form,”  one could argue that since the “villa upgrade” benefit is “specifically provided in this Enrollment form,”  and section 4 of that agreement expressly states that “unit size upgrades, if available, will be permitted” and the second sentence of section 9 is part of the “SVN Elite Membership Documents,” then the second sentence of section 9 (which preserves SVN’s right to cancel benefits) DOESN’T apply to benefits listed in section 4 of that agreement.

In other words, SVN preserved its right to change and cancel any aspect of the SVN elite program, EXCEPT the villa upgrade feature of section 4, which expressly states that “villa upgrades . . . will be permitted.” 

At a minimum, one could argue that the language is ambiguous regarding this issue.  Since ambiguities are usually construed against the drafter of the document, owners would still prevail.

Hey Starwood MBA’s!  In between patting yourselves on the back for saving so much money by screwing us, did any of you bother to check with SVN’s legal department before you elected to kill the villa upgrade feature?   If not, I think you should consider giving them a ring.  

-nodge


----------



## mesamirage

DavidnRobin said:


> All I am saying (along with many others).
> 1) the SVO/SVN database system is really archaic and needs to be at 100%
> 2) the reservation software and database link needs to be upgraded to the 21st century
> 3) the status quo is costing everyone time and money
> 4) 90/10 rule here - make a reservation system that deals with 90%(+) of the owner needs (both by phone and web-based)
> 
> SVO/SVN is suffering from 'old-school' mentality driving by Marketing/Sales - including policies - especially that start off with 'congratulations on our 3rd year - prepare to bend over...'


 
David,

I just want to say I agree 100% with what you are saying.. I have also voiced my displeasure with the Starwood reservation system as well.. it is BROKE. It may take an investment of $$$ to fix it, but the technology exist and it can be done. The main problem I see with Starwood feeling like they need to fix it along with their decisions to change ELITE perks is that they are mainly only affecting existing owners, so I don't think that at the end of the day they care. We are all on the hook for our MF fees, either to pay them or sell the interval to someone else who will have to pay them... Starwood knows they aren't going to lose our payments since we are legally bound to pay them. All Starwood likely really cares about is NEW Sales... changing ELITE perks doesn't change that much, and fixing the reservation system doesn't change it either. We love the Starwood product but until we the owners have the real voice in what happens we will always to subject to Starwood deciding what is best for us. 

I'm not 100% sure what happens with Starwood when a property sells out, but with Hyatt the owners replace Hyatt on the board for the resort... I'm not 100% clear on the process and what voice Hyatt still has but I know more control goes to the owners who are really the ones with the biggest interest in keeping the property(s) top notch. Again not sure of the process... but there has to be a way to get our voice heard more on issues that are important to us with Starwood, issues that Starwood doesn't have a financial interest in fixing.

Just a few thoughts..... The Starwood product is a fantastic product, but no reason it can't be better.

Steve


----------



## KOR5Star

DavidnRobin said:


> Sorry - not a semi-techno but if you want to talk bioscience... the techno jargon is fine, but I am approaching from a pragmatic side.
> 
> Each reiteration takes time (try this on ticketmaster)... for what??? a reservation?  that can be made by phone or internet (in ideal world)?  perhaps on those super hard to get weeks - maybe...? (likely not even then)
> 
> you are not trying to get front row ickets to The Police - you actually have to be an Owner (at 12 months) or the SOs (at 8 months) to use - so creating a specialized system (and effort) to thwart it is not worth it



Well... maybe like *Westin5Star*, I'm over estimating the number of people that would have access to and exploit an internet bot advantage.  Perhaps my sister's experience is due to some other issue I'm not aware of and I'm mistaken to assume bot usage.  

It's human nature to believe other people are just like us.  *Westin5Star* implies there would be little difference between his phone bank advantage and and internet advantage using bots... ergo, he must believe there are many people with command of, or at least access to, the services of a phone bank.

Is it worth it?  Considering I have a school aged son and I'm locked into that calender... along with a b'zillion other familes all trying to take a vacation at the same time... it's an advantage I would definately exploit.  As you know, time stamp is everything.  Even if it didn't make a difference in getting your week in the first place (and I believe it would), it certainly would impact your unit location request.  

Even 5 Star Elite doesn't trump timestamp.  If a one unit owner has a better timestamp, they get first dibbs on the best unit location.  So for the best shot at a great unit location, yes, I believe it's worth it.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Each reiteration takes time". This is handled automatically... no need for human intervention.  On my side each attempt would take less than a second and occur without my intervention.  The only additional time would be waiting for the host system to reject the password and refresh the page with a new one.   This too should take less than a second on a high speed link.  It could probably retry 5 times before an accomplished typist could finish typing their name and telephone number.  



DavidnRobin said:


> All I am saying (along with many others).
> 1) the SVO/SVN database system is really archaic and needs to be at 100%
> 2) the reservation software and database link needs to be upgraded to the 21st century
> 3) the status quo is costing everyone time and money
> 4) 90/10 rule here - make a reservation system that deals with 90%(+) of the owner needs (both by phone and web-based)
> 
> SVO/SVN is suffering from 'old-school' mentality driving by Marketing/Sales - including policies - especially that start off with 'congratulations on our 3rd year - prepare to bend over...'


I think we all agree the current reservations system seems to be a poor implementation, but I'm not so sure it's archaic or out dated.  

Due to accountability issues and cost, companies need to implement systems that reach into every aspect of a business.  This could result in using a system that's really great for all the nuances of selling timeshare and running the business side, but sucks wind for reservations and inventory control. 

Unfortunately, the system is often chosen by executives for their ease of business operation, not the ease of the customers.  And don't forget, we're not really customers anymore.  We are owners.  They already have our money and we MUST keep giving them their MFs or pass the "hot potato" to someone that will.  

But at least we can agree on the basic point that the system is not convenient for owners.


----------



## nodge

*Additional SVN Rant*

As long as I’ve got some time to rant, I should note that I was recently able to book, not one, not two, but three, count ‘em THREE large one bedroom villas at Westin Mission Hills Villas for late October 2007 via Interval International “Getaways” for cheap.  How cheap you ask?  Not $800/week, Not $500/week, not even $300/week.  But because I’m so special (not), I was able to book each unit for $288/week  (plus guest certificates).

I picked a week in October at WMH’s when my kids have a 4 day weekend, so I thought I’d treat ‘em to a little sun.  Then I called my folks in Michigan and they signed up for a unit, and they talked my uncle and his family into joining us.  So now we’ve got a great family reunion planned, and we are all looking forward to it, dumpsterville  or not.

But in light of Starwood’s recent “modifications” to the SVN Elite program, I think I now understand why I was able to pull so many units at such a great price.  Starwood wants new blood at its resorts, and it would rather give excess inventory to II to sell as cheap “getaways” than allow us owners an opportunity to upgrade into those same units using reduced staroptions.

In light of this great trip that I was able to book for cheap, my feelings on this new SVN tactic are mixed.  But when Starwood tells us owners that it is operating at peak capacity at all of its resorts, it would appear to be because SVN is essentially giving away excess inventory to II to sell at well below market rates.  

Hey Starwood MBA’s!  Why do I get a much better deal at an SVN property using an outside exchange company instead of staying within SVN?   In other words, thanks for giving me such a great deal at your owners’ expense.  Oh wait, I’m an owner too . . .   

-nodge


----------



## DavidnRobin

KOR5Star said:


> I'm not sure what you meant by "Each reiteration takes time". This is handled automatically... no need for human intervention.  On my side each attempt would take less than a second and occur without my intervention.  The only additional time would be waiting for the host system to reject the password and refresh the page with a new one.   This too should take less than a second on a high speed link.  It could probably retry 5 times before an accomplished typist could finish typing their name and telephone number.




It may be instaneous in your computer time - but not theirs - try it some time in realtime with TicketMaster (or the like) when there is a major event that goes on sale - it takes a while for their side to process.  Oh, btw - these are not easility scanned.

Anyway... I wasn't looking to be agreed with - it is like arguing about gravity in a way - the system needs serious fixing and IT WOULD BE a cost savings to do so (in the long run)


----------



## duke

nodge said:


> I was recently able to book, not one, not two, but three, count ‘em THREE large one bedroom villas at Westin Mission Hills Villas for late October 2007 via Interval International “Getaways” for cheap.  How cheap you ask?  Not $800/week, Not $500/week, not even $300/week.  But because I’m so special (not), I was able to book each unit for $288/week  (plus guest certificates).
> 
> But in light of Starwood’s recent “modifications” to the SVN Elite program, I think I now understand why I was able to pull so many units at such a great price.  Starwood wants new blood at its resorts, and it would rather give excess inventory to II to sell as cheap “getaways” than allow us owners an opportunity to upgrade into those same units using reduced staroptions.
> 
> But when Starwood tells us owners that it is operating at peak capacity at all of its resorts, it would appear to be because SVN is essentially giving away excess inventory to II to sell at well below market rates.
> 
> Hey Starwood MBA’s!  Why do I get a much better deal at an SVN property using an outside exchange company instead of staying within SVN?   In other words, thanks for giving me such a great deal at your owners’ expense.  Oh wait, I’m an owner too . . .
> -nodge



This sucks if true.  Are they doing this to get "fresh meat" in to sell more units?


----------



## duke

nodge said:


> In other words, SVN preserved its right to change and cancel any aspect of the SVN elite program, EXCEPT the villa upgrade feature of section 4, which expressly states that “villa upgrades . . . will be permitted.”
> 
> At a minimum, one could argue that the language is ambiguous regarding this issue.  Since ambiguities are usually construed against the drafter of the document, owners would still prevail.
> 
> Hey Starwood MBA’s!  In between patting yourselves on the back for saving so much money by screwing us, did any of you bother to check with SVN’s legal department before you elected to kill the villa upgrade feature?   If not, I think you should consider giving them a ring.
> 
> -nodge



Any attorney here able to write the letter or file the papers?


----------



## TheUnitrep

nodge said:


> There may be wiggle room in SVN’s elite enrollment contract that suggests that the villa upgrade benefit CANNOT be cancelled at will by SVN.
> 
> ...if available, will be permitted into the next size unit (e.g. studio upgrade into a one bedroom unit) and are only available for units with the same number of keys.”



It was explained to me during our last sales presentation that the reason this statement is included was to specify which units qualified for upgrade.  By including this, Starwood was preventing owners from being able to upgrade from a studio or one bedroom to a two bedroom lock off.



> ...I further understand that SVN Elite, including eligibility criteria and each feature and benefit of SVN Elite, is subject to additions, modifications and/or termination at any time.  While it is anticipated that the SVN Operator will continue to offer SVN Elite, my decision to purchase the Interest is based primarily on my use of my Interest at my Resort, and not on the continued availability of SVN Elite.”



It appears to me that this clause gives Starwood the right to add to, delete from or teminate the Elite program at any time.  It also alerts owners that they should not base a purchase decision on the program continuing.

Seems pretty black and white to me that Starwood has the right to do as they wish when it comes to the Elite program, but then again I am no attorney or expert in this area.

Jerry


----------



## oneohana

nodge said:


> As long as I’ve got some time to rant, I should note that I was recently able to book, not one, not two, but three, count ‘em THREE large one bedroom villas at Westin Mission Hills Villas for late October 2007 via Interval International “Getaways” for cheap.  How cheap you ask?  Not $800/week, Not $500/week, not even $300/week.  But because I’m so special (not), I was able to book each unit for $288/week  (plus guest certificates).
> 
> I picked a week in October at WMH’s when my kids have a 4 day weekend, so I thought I’d treat ‘em to a little sun.  Then I called my folks in Michigan and they signed up for a unit, and they talked my uncle and his family into joining us.  So now we’ve got a great family reunion planned, and we are all looking forward to it, dumpsterville  or not.
> 
> But in light of Starwood’s recent “modifications” to the SVN Elite program, I think I now understand why I was able to pull so many units at such a great price.  Starwood wants new blood at its resorts, and it would rather give excess inventory to II to sell as cheap “getaways” than allow us owners an opportunity to upgrade into those same units using reduced staroptions.
> 
> In light of this great trip that I was able to book for cheap, my feelings on this new SVN tactic are mixed.  But when Starwood tells us owners that it is operating at peak capacity at all of its resorts, it would appear to be because SVN is essentially giving away excess inventory to II to sell at well below market rates.
> 
> Hey Starwood MBA’s!  Why do I get a much better deal at an SVN property using an outside exchange company instead of staying within SVN?   In other words, thanks for giving me such a great deal at your owners’ expense.  Oh wait, I’m an owner too . . .
> 
> -nodge



Are these weeks that *wood space banks for the other properties? I think they give II a 2bdrm l/o and II splits the unit into 2 1bdrm units.
Did you look at Marriots prices for the same time? They were the same price. If I owned a silver or gold week I would be very upset that they are renting for less than their mf's. These weeks are always available due to the heat. The end of Oct. might not be too bad. The temp is already in the 100's there.


----------



## skim118

KOR5Star said:


> Not entirely true, but very close.
> 
> As a multiweek owner at WKORV, I CAN NOT book earlier than anyone else when I'm using multiple weeks in a row.
> 
> What happens is I call for the first week, 12 months out at the earliest moment.  SVN then sends an internal e-mail, which sits and gathers dust until the following week.  When someone strolls in that day, get their coffee, shoot the breeze with their coworker, scratch their butt, adjust their chair, etc..., they finally get down to booking the reservations in their e-mail pile.  This e-mail pile consists of booking requests for the ENTIRE network.  If it's a peak week, just imagine how many requests are in there.
> 
> From my conversations with SVN, there is ONE person that does this... *ONE!*
> 
> Again, if the second week is a high demand week, with lots of early morning calls, it is VERY likely, that a multi-week owner will not get a great timestamp for their second week.
> 
> The "unofficial" policy is the original timestamp for the original week is kept as a note attached to all subsequent reservations.  Call me anal, but I want the "official" timestamp to have the very best time I can get for my entire vacation.  I don't want any surprises.




What you have written maybe true; but in practical terms our friends who have two OV weeks in WKORV make one booking and they stay in the same 2-bed-room lockoff unit for both the weeks during the past three years.  Their second week booking timestamp seems irrelevant to them.

In fact they just avoid WKORV on their second Saturday since it is such a Zoo at the front desk and they go to Hana instead.  WKORV staff are very friendly/accomodative to multi-week owners & they seem to always get their room requests also.  BTW they are not 3-star Elites either because one of their weeks was bought resale.


----------



## Ken555

Wow. I stop reading TUG for a few days and *this* is what I come back to? 

I assume SW has the right to change the Elite program however it likes. However, would this change not be considered a "reduction of services". If the Elite program was used as a primary means to encourage sales, could SW be required to honor the program? I'm sure they're not, but it's food for thought. I suggest a petition...there are plenty of free petition sites on the web which will host this...

Well, a week or so ago I was crunching numbers (along with many of you, I'm sure!) after all those positive 5* Elite posts. Now, I have almost no reason whatsoever to puchase *any* SVN properties direct. In fact, like others on this board, my next t/s purchase may be a Hyatt or other so I could go to other locations. In business I don't ever put all my eggs in one basket, and it seems I (we) should do the same with our t/s's. 

BTW, what's to say they wouldn't renege on the Platinum for Life, either? For those of you who have this great benefit, did your contract stipulate how long it would last, and/or does SW have the right to change the program benefits without your approval? What's in the fine print, and are you *sure* they can't change it so it's value is primarily removed?


----------



## Ken555

nodge said:


> As long as I’ve got some time to rant, I should note that I was recently able to book, not one, not two, but three, count ‘em THREE large one bedroom villas at Westin Mission Hills Villas for late October 2007 via Interval International “Getaways” for cheap.



We may see you there! I've been reserving weeks at WMH via II's Getaway for two years now, and the Fall is great there. We had three units last year and it worked great. I believe this is just excess inventory / II deposits. Sometimes they have 2-bed units avaiable via II...


----------



## KOR5Star

DavidnRobin said:


> It may be instaneous in your computer time - but not theirs - try it some time in realtime with TicketMaster (or the like) when there is a major event that goes on sale - it takes a while for their side to process.


Is this the system you propose?   What's happening while you wait... countless others are getting their tickets in front of you?  Sounds just as broken to me.  



DavidnRobin said:


> Oh, btw - these are not easility scanned.


"Scanned"?  Nobody is scanning anything.  The image is identified, warped and a character recognition algorithm is run on the all the intermediate results until a recognizable character is found.  It does this until it can't find any more characters.  It orders the characters in sequence based on location (because the first characters are not necessarily the first resolved).  Takes about 500ms for a six character passcode.  I call that pretty darn easy.



DavidnRobin said:


> Anyway... I wasn't looking to be agreed with - it is like arguing about gravity in a way - the system needs serious fixing and IT WOULD BE a cost savings to do so (in the long run)


The idea that a change would save money is an assumption.  Indeed you could be right.  It could be an old outdated system.  On the other hand, it could be a current system that saves a bunch of money in other, more cost sensitive areas for the company.

We are not customers.  We are owners. I'm sure the cost of running the reservation system is passed down to us in our MFs.  Starwood would value economical performance in other aspects of their business over one that is paid for by someone else.  

It has been my experience, in this new age of all encompassing systems like SAP, that no one system does great at everything.  In fact, it usually sucks big wind at a few things.  

Don't assume that simply because it's not convenient for us that money can be saved for the company.  There's a bigger picture to consider.

And sometimes it's just better to "go with the devil you know".  It may seem outdated to you, but in the end it's as fair as it can be.  IMHO, it's inconvenient, but not broken.

The biggest improvement they could make is to delay the time at which they start taking reservations.  This would make it more convenient for West Coasters to make their reservations.

Being from Long Island, this is not an issue for me, but I'd be more than willing to wait another hour for the benefit of my West Coast timeshare brethren.


----------



## pointsjunkie

Ken555 said:


> Wow. I stop reading TUG for a few days and *this* is what I come back to?
> 
> I assume SW has the right to change the Elite program however it likes. However, would this change not be considered a "reduction of services". If the Elite program was used as a primary means to encourage sales, could SW be required to honor the program? I'm sure they're not, but it's food for thought. I suggest a petition...there are plenty of free petition sites on the web which will host this...
> 
> Well, a week or so ago I was crunching numbers (along with many of you, I'm sure!) after all those positive 5* Elite posts. Now, I have almost no reason whatsoever to puchase *any* SVN properties direct. In fact, like others on this board, my next t/s purchase may be a Hyatt or other so I could go to other locations. In business I don't ever put all my eggs in one basket, and it seems I (we) should do the same with our t/s's.
> 
> BTW, what's to say they wouldn't renege on the Platinum for Life, either? For those of you who have this great benefit, did your contract stipulate how long it would last, and/or does SW have the right to change the program benefits without your approval? What's in the fine print, and are you *sure* they can't change it so it's value is primarily removed?



can they take away the platinum for life???? hoe is this perk written in the eliye papers? is there anyway they can take it away? please respond to this, i will not become a 5* if their is any possibility that they can revoke platinum for life after you have it.


----------



## Cathyb

Yes, having an advantage on a waitlist in a hard-to-get location like Harborside is brutal -- better yet, deadly for us one weekers.  More importantly the value of Westin Mission hills in reselling because of the initiation of the mandatory and non-mandatory category.  When we bought, none of this was in existence -- and who knows what the future has for us.  I am one sad Westin owner


----------



## KOR5Star

pointsjunkie said:


> can they take away the platinum for life???? hoe is this perk written in the eliye papers? is there anyway they can take it away? please respond to this, i will not become a 5* if their is any possibility that they can revoke platinum for life after you have it.


They can take away EVERYTHING.  

Nothing is set in stone except the particular unit and particular week you own. 

The only question is "How likely is it that these things will be eventually taken away?"   

The answer is everything that is unique to Starwood is the most likely.  If, for whatever reason, Starwood no longer manages our home resort, we could not expect the perks we receive from Starwood to continue.  

It's likely that the basic fundamentals of timesharing (float, membership in an exchange company, etc...) would continue because the owners would want that to continue.

At one point in the distant future, all our timeshare ownership is destined to be sold, proceeds split between owners and creditors, torn down and rebuilt as possibly something completely different. It's inevitable. 

But before that happens, expect a few enourmous assessments as things deteriorate and need to be brought back to life... like the roof, the pool, renovating the rooms, etc...  It's the same as your house back home.  It's new for awhile.  You renovate.  It's kind of new again.  It might be renovated again.  It's... sort of new... again.  Then when you renovate for the thrid time, there are so many structural problems that it's easier and cheaper to tear it down and build a new place... if the neighborhood remained a good one.

All that talk about willing it to your children and your children's children is just that... talk.  What would your great grandchild want with a dilapidated building that would cost him a ton of money every year in MFs just to keep going?  What management company would sign up for the headaches to manage a place like that?


----------



## Henry M.

Time2Ponder said:


> I'm not so sure about this. Approximately 30 people have participated in this thread, with varying degrees of opinion -- in other words, out of the thousands of elites in existence, not many have found their way here to complain.
> 
> Tuggers are people who are aware of the subtle ins and outs of TS programs; I'm guessing that most owners, however, (even including elites) are fairly unaware of how their programs work, and thus aren't really all that concerned about the changes.
> 
> JMO. YMMV.



Ms. Clark called me as promised Friday afternoon. I was unable to take her call so she left me a message and called again Sunday evening. She is definitely interested in talking to people and opinions expressed here and in direct communications to Starwood are being at least read. I am still willing to give SVN a little time to figure this out.

What I got from the call was that  the upgrade benefit was resulting in many dissatisfied owners, particularly 3* who make the vast majority of Elite members. Many started calling every day 30 days out and ended up upset when they didn't get an upgrade. Rather than the benefit being a perk it resulted in negative feelings for many. Perhaps outright canceling it is not the right move and Starwood is seeing what they can do about it. There are no promises but I think things may change again in the next couple of months.

I do give Ms. Clark high marks for taking the time to talk to owners that have written to express concerns. She spent quite a long time with me on the phone, during a weekend. She seems very reasonable, not just repeating a company line but genuinely thinking about alternatives and the issues associated with them. If she is able to follow through with her ideas I think things will change for the better in the not too distant future. I do not think this was some sort of conspiracy to enable SVN to have more rooms available for rent or to somehow stick it to the Elites. I'm still more or less satisfied with the overall program. If they restore the upgrade benefit and do something about the Starpoint devaluation so the benefits are like when I first purchased, then I will be very satisfied again.


----------



## duke

emuyshondt said:


> If they restore the upgrade benefit and do something about the Starpoint devaluation so the benefits are like when I first purchased, then I will be very satisfied again.




1. Reinstate upgrades for 4* and 5* ELITES.   (Eliminates the complaints from 3* elites and reduces the upgrade demand -  Only 1300 5* and 900 4*)

2. Implement a tiered starpoint bonus for ELITES: 3* 10%, 4* 15%, and 5* 20%.   (Smooths over the SPG hotel starpoint devaluation)


----------



## mariawolf

I still think that if an upgrade is available at check in all elite members should be able to request it--give the call in requests  to the 4 & 5 elites and let the 3's have a shot at check in--it still doesn't make sense not to allow them if the rooms are available--or let all just request at check in so that all have a fair shot at them.


----------



## skim118

I find it mildly amusing that now 5* SVN Elites are ready to throw the 3* Elites(sic) back into the land of serfdom.  Clearly SVN is succeeding in their divide and conquer tactics !!

In reality the 3* Elites are way more important to SVN due to their larger number and due to the fact that SVN can keep the fantasy of higher Elite levels to push more unit sales to them.

My gut feeling is regardless of SVN corporate schmoozing, Villa upgrades at 90/30 days is history. The marketing guy/gal who proposed it as a sales tool without doing thorough cost analysis is in the same unemployment line as the marketing person who proposed the "all-you can-eat-lobster-deal" at Red Lobster.


----------



## Henry M.

I think all owners should have a shot at the upgrades. Start at the top of the Elite pile and go down the list. If rooms are available and would otherwise be unused, make someone happy. Perhaps non-Elite owners will then want to get a higher elite status to be more likely to get an upgrade. While I think there should be special privileges for those with the highest investment, that shouldn't preclude others from getting some of them. 

The issue is that perhaps the expectations are too high right now. No one should be expecting upgrade, much less demanding it to the point of abusing the staff (I've seen this with my own eyes), when they get to say WKORV on July 4th week and they get a less than stellar room on a trade from another property. The upgrade is based on availability and is just a side perk. There are about 14,000 Elites, mostly 3*, competing for that perk and the number appears to be growing fast. If you get an upgrade, fine, but as long as you get what you own, then there shouldn't be any complaints. If you don't own in Maui, then you should have no beef with whatever room you get, just as a Maui owner, regardless of Elite status, should have no beef with "dumpsterville" at WMH if that resort is completely full. Sure you can ask politely for a change but there is no obligation on the part of the resort to give you more than the minimum that corresponds to the StarOptions you own.

On the Starpoint conversion, I would think the conversion rate should be repaired for all owners. As previously suggested, you should be able to get more or less the same rooms at a Westin or Sheraton close to your home resort and the Starpoint conversion should be adjusted to reflect that. Then the bonuses suggested by Duke would be a nice perk for Elites. As it stands right now, even a 20% bonus doesn't put things back to where they were before the category creep and Starpoint devaluation.


----------



## rocky

emuyshondt said:


> On the Starpoint conversion, I would think the conversion rate should be repaired for all owners. As previously suggested, you should be able to get more or less the same rooms at a Westin or Sheraton close to your home resort and the Starpoint conversion should be adjusted to reflect that. Then the bonuses suggested by Duke would be a nice perk for Elites. As it stands right now, even a 20% bonus doesn't put things back to where they were before the category creep and Starpoint devaluation.



Agreed.  Fix the conversion for all owners.  Using fixed point values does not address future devaluations..... because, frankly, this is not the last devaluation we will see.  After that give % bonuses ON TOP of adjusted starpoint values to Elites if necessary to reward them for the lost upgrade feature.  

The starpoint devaluation is really a super super super serious problem.  

As mentioned above, the Platinum program is a nice perk... but anyone who thinks they can't change that program until it's worthless is fooling themselves.  Starwood can change it anytime.  Starwood could be sold to a private equity firm and they could cancel it.....  anything can happen.  Anyone who works in Corporate America knows change is constant and nothing is absolute.  If the numbers don't work, or it becomes to costly to administer they will strip the program down to a place where it works for them again.    No matter how cool being an Elite seems or how nice your sales person is, or how much you think you have out-witted the system with EOY to EY requals and a phone bank of autodialers in Bangalore.  It's about business, not vacations and Starwood is always going to make the rules fit their needs.

I used a BOT to write this posting.


----------



## Westin5Star

*Upgrades are back???*

I just finished my call with Suzanne.  She is a real professional.  Coming away from the call I got the impression that she is going to be able to make some very positive changes for us as far as villa upgrades but that she obviously could not come out and say this.  My feeling is that within a month or so we will receive a revised communication from Starwood.  The new policy will likely be that upgrades will be given at checkin, subject to availability, given by preference in order of Elite status (similar to SPG).

She all but assured me that Starwood WILL NOT leave a 1BR unit open next to a 5* owner that is in a studio; even though that is the current "policy".

I also suggested many other potential Elite benefits that she took notes on.  We pretty much agreed that the current benefits offered to 5* members is not sufficient and certainly is not going to really help their sales.  I would hope that when / if they bring back some form of upgrade policy that it will also be accompanied by some other benefits!

I really feel like the phone calls and emails have and will make a difference so if your voice hasn't yet been heard then.....

I am also going to start a new thread on what I learned about the new Starwood reservation system.


----------



## rfb813

When I bought recently at Vistana Villages I bought to increase the StarOptions to allow a trade into any of the resorts. We were original Vistana Falls owners who upgraded to Cascades when SVN was created by Starwood the new owners.  This recent puchase allowed me to become a 3* Elite which had only had one advantage to me and that was the ability to convert to StarPoints annually. I never expected to use the upgrade feature since at the 3* level it seem very unlikely I would get to use it. While many don't believe in conversion to StarPoints for us it provides additional flexibility in the use of the various timeshares (11 weeks) we own. Many times our family will use all weeks and sometimes we don't and use the Starpoints, Marriott Rewards, Hilton Honors and Four Seasons Cash we receive form a convesrion to travel to locations where no timeshares exist. Our family loves the flexibility. 

The added time to decide on the conversion which has been announced is of interest to me and perhaps other Elite Owners.  However as I indicated in an earlier post in this thread Starwood should not eliminate the ability of an upgrade.  There are ways to handle this problem. 

In addition, I agree with the idea of increasing the Starpoints conversion.  While the costs of hotel rooms has gone up and the increased Starpoints are meant to reflect this, the value of a unit week for Starwood as a rental  or other use has also increased as well the maintenance costs associated with the week.  The conversion should refect this.


----------



## soccer321

Hello all,
 I have not posted here in quite a while, but I do look in every once in a while. I became an elite member when the program first started. The only benefit that is of any value to me is the CHANCE to have the ability to upgrade. I realize, like all the other adults who became elite members, that I would not always get an upgrade, but IF one was available,I would have a CHANCE to get it. Somehow I was able to understand this concept.
  First, ALL people who work for starwood are salespeople, whether they actually work in the sales department or in customer service. You can bet your bottom dollar that they are repeating the company line whenever they speak to any customer, no matter what your level, elite or not. They will ALWAYS put the company line before the truth.
 If you actually believe that they are taking your ability to upgrade away  because it was making so many of us unhappy, than you still must believe that everything a timeshare salesperson / customer service person says is always true. (Most of us  learned that lesson the hard way, didn't we?) 
  I just love the way that starwood is taking away the main reason so many of us have paid them so much money in order to become "elite", AND at the same time actually trying to convince us that they are doing it for our own good (to keep you from POSSIBLY becoming dissatisfied).   I just hope that for starwoods next anniversary congratulations card  they don't decide to take away all the pool chairs because they read about our dissatisfaction in finding empty ones at some of their resorts. Problems in any service in a service industry should be corrected, not simply removed. 
  I am glad to hear that when several of you have spoken to the elite customer service that they have been so pleasant. I guess they haven't spent the money that we have, and I am sure that makes being pleasant easier.
 The bottom line concerning their action is , well it is the bottom line($$$$$). Many of your posts have alluded to this. Until they actually believe that their action will impact their profits, they will not do a thing. 
  With the large number of posts on this topic, this issue could serve as a springboard for someone with INTEGRITY in the starwood organization to actually make responsiveness to their loyal customer base a fact rather than an empty phrase. After all, it is in starwoods best interest to have its loyal customers speaking to and refering other people to the SVN. We really do want starwood to succeed, and starwood must start to respect their clientel (and the power of the internet) in order to become even better.


----------



## KOR5Star

emuyshondt said:


> I think all owners should have a shot at the upgrades. Start at the top of the Elite pile and go down the list. If rooms are available and would otherwise be unused, make someone happy. Perhaps non-Elite owners will then want to get a higher elite status to be more likely to get an upgrade. While I think there should be special privileges for those with the highest investment, that shouldn't preclude others from getting some of them.


I think all elites, but that's it, not everyone.  It should run like the hotels.  We all get upgraded *AT CHECK-IN*.  First the platinums get the upgrades, then the golds.  "Normal" guests get the room they booked.  It should be the same for SVN.  Otherwise, the better rooms will take a non-stop beating and result in an early assesment for renovations on those rooms.

But one thing is clear in my mind.  ALL ELITES should be eligible for an upgrade, not just 4* or 5*... EVERY ELITE.



emuyshondt said:


> The issue is that perhaps the expectations are too high right now.


This is a result of poor communication and outright lies from salespeople.  This is where the problem begins.  That should be addressed to head off future upset owners.

The current program where people keep calling each day is flawed.  Every day a 3* gets their hopes up "Maybe today is the day!".  They call and get dissapointed... again!  This madness needs to end.  Let all upgrades occur at check-in for everyone.  No calls... Orlando can't help you.  It's in the control of the front desk on the day of arrival.  End of story.



emuyshondt said:


> On the Starpoint conversion, I would think the conversion rate should be repaired for all owners. As previously suggested, you should be able to get more or less the same rooms at a Westin or Sheraton close to your home resort and the Starpoint conversion should be adjusted to reflect that. Then the bonuses suggested by Duke would be a nice perk for Elites. As it stands right now, even a 20% bonus doesn't put things back to where they were before the category creep and Starpoint devaluation.


I'll second that suggestion.  The ongoing devaluation is of great concern.


----------



## Negma

Well I am encouraged. It sounds like we are making progress. I do believe that if they handle the upgrades as they do in hotels we will all win. If it is available great, if not, at least the place is booked. Also sinilar to airline upgrades.

The piece about the points will have to change too. It was interesting that in my discussion with Suzanne, she told me that they buy the points from starwood. It sounded like they all need to get on the same page for the company to make this a win for the organization. 

The dialogue in this thread has been very helpful.


----------



## mariawolf

Although I guess if I were a 4/5 I would not be happy to wait till check in but maybe doing it at check in is the most fair--I will repeat that not doing any upgrades and letting larger rooms/room with views sit empty does not make any sense!
Hotel upgrades at check in have been going on for years!


----------



## Time2Ponder

KOR5Star said:


> I think all elites, but that's it, not everyone.  It should run like the hotels.  We all get upgraded *AT CHECK-IN*.  First the platinums get the upgrades, then the golds.  "Normal" guests get the room they booked.  It should be the same for SVN.  Otherwise, the better rooms will take a non-stop beating and result in an early assesment for renovations on those rooms.



I disagree that the "better" rooms will take a beating. Consider what's happening now: most owners who rent choose to rent out the studio side of their lock-offs. It seems far more likely that these "unattractive" rooms take a greater beating at the hands of non-owners (and will continue to do so), even in the scenario you invision.

Generally, with regard to maintenance costs, a room is a room is a room. Maintenance costs of a 1BR should not be significantly higher than maintenance costs of a studio (incrementally speaking). 

If a better room is available, it is in Starwood's best business interests to upgrade ANYONE (regardless of owner/elite status) to said room. It builds good will and may make non-owners take a good, long look at the possibility of buying Starwood. Besides that, it costs Starwood nothing to make this happen.


----------



## KOR5Star

rocky said:


> I used a BOT to write this posting.


:rofl: 
ROTFLMAO


----------



## KOR5Star

Time2Ponder said:


> I disagree that the "better" rooms will take a beating. Consider what's happening now: most owners who rent choose to rent out the studio side of their lock-offs. It seems far more likely that these "unattractive" rooms take a greater beating at the hands of non-owners (and will continue to do so), even in the scenario you invision.
> 
> Generally, with regard to maintenance costs, a room is a room is a room. Maintenance costs of a 1BR should not be significantly higher than maintenance costs of a studio (incrementally speaking).
> 
> If a better room is available, it is in Starwood's best business interests to upgrade ANYONE (regardless of owner/elite status) to said room. It builds good will and may make non-owners take a good, long look at the possibility of buying Starwood. Besides that, it costs Starwood nothing to make this happen.


Why haven't hotels discovered this logic yet. They should upgrade as many people coming through the door as possible.  It would make good business sense, right?  

Maintanence is not the same.  It goes by square footage.  The 900 square foot 1BR commands a significantly larger share of the MF than the Studio.  There is more furniture/fixtures, more air to heat/cool, etc... in a 1BR than a Studio.


----------



## Henry M.

KOR5Star said:


> Why haven't hotels discovered this logic yet. They should upgrade as many people coming through the door as possible.  It would make good business sense, right?



A hotel can always get a last minute paying guest that wants one of the better rooms. This is unlikely to happen at a timeshare since most owners make reservations months in advance. By the time check-in day comes along they pretty much know what rooms will be used over the next week and the situation is not likely to change. Thus you can upgrade people. As a 5*, I want first dibs on those upgrades, but I don't mind if someone else also benefits after I've been taken care of.


----------



## bud_baker

I must say that this has been one of the more interesting threads I've ever read.. I've learned something about coding, bots, engineering, statistics,  data banks, elitisim, surfdom, and the list goes on.. and maybe the most important lesson from all of this is maybe I really don't want to buy that "rock solid" 2 BR Vistana Villages platinum.. that the money is better invested and then renting from owners looking to cover their M.F.s for the year.. the art of the deal ;0)


----------



## KOR5Star

emuyshondt said:


> A hotel can always get a last minute paying guest that wants one of the better rooms. This is unlikely to happen at a timeshare since most owners make reservations months in advance. By the time check-in day comes along they pretty much know what rooms will be used over the next week and the situation is not likely to change. Thus you can upgrade people. As a 5*, I want first dibs on those upgrades, but I don't mind if someone else also benefits after I've been taken care of.


A couple of things...

Half my visits are planned.  The other half are spontaneous.  When I went to Maui in March, it was because I was getting stressed by Long Island's Winter weather and I needed some time in my "Happy place".    I quite literally booked a studio while we were in the limo on the way to JFK.  Next, I bought my tickets, because I was buying airline tickets to where ever I could get in.   I appreciated the upgrade to a 1BR.  It took that much more of the Winter edge off.  

I tend to believe everyone is like me, so I'll suggest I'm not the only 5* doing this.  We own some much time, how could you plan so far in advance for all of them?

Your analogy to a hotel is flawed.  Hotels DO know, for the most part, who is coming and for how long.  Walk-ins happen, but they are not the norm.  And the later into the evening you get, the more unlikely they are to happen.

If your logic holds, "normal" guests should be upgraded to suites in hotels after... say... 8 or 9PM?

No.  Upgrades should be for Elites only.  If you think 3 stars are getting upset over not getting an upgrade, just imagine the chaos when EVERYONE gets an upgrade.  It's an altruistic thought, but unworkable and unnecessarily expensive.


----------



## Time2Ponder

KOR5Star said:


> Maintanence is not the same.  It goes by square footage.



This is why I said "incrementally speaking". As the square footage increases, the MFs will increase. In other words, the difference between a studio and a 1BR is comparable to the difference between a BMW 5-series and a BMW 7-series; it is not comparable to the difference between a BMW 7-series and a Yugo.


----------



## Time2Ponder

KOR5Star said:


> Your analogy to a hotel is flawed.  Hotels DO know, for the most part, who is coming and for how long.  Walk-ins happen, but they are not the norm.  And the later into the evening you get, the more unlikely they are to happen.



Hotels (especially those in major metropolitan areas) are likely to hold out some luxury rooms in the hope of acquiring some last-minute business travelers whose companies are paying full freight for their lodgings. If only a suite is available, then the company, alas, pays. 

This is not the case with TSs, who are always looking out for the next possible owner/multi-owner, whom they really want to impress.


----------



## Denise L

This thread makes me thankful that I was never on the _Titanic_ with all of these Elites...surely there would be no room in the lifeboat for me  .


----------



## KOR5Star

Time2Ponder said:


> This is why I said "incrementally speaking". As the square footage increases, the MFs will increase. In other words, the difference between a studio and a 1BR is comparable to the difference between a BMW 5-series and a BMW 7-series; it is not comparable to the difference between a BMW 7-series and a Yugo.


I don't understand your point.  Maybe because your analogy doesn't resemble the MF difference between a studio and a 1BR.

Area of a studio is 500 square feet. 
Area of a 1BR is 900 square feet... almost double.

Starwood simply divides the property cost into the number of square feet of units. We actually pay per square foot.

Almost double doesn't seem like an insignificant difference to me.


----------



## Henry M.

KOR5Star said:


> I quite literally booked a studio while we were in the limo on the way to JFK.  Next, I bought my tickets, because I was buying airline tickets to where ever I could get in.   I appreciated the upgrade to a 1BR.  It took that much more of the Winter edge off.



I did something similar January of last year (except I did give myself from Friday to Sunday to get home, pick up my wife and pack). I also got upgraded. I wouldn't expect this to work during the summer, though. You probably won't even get the view you paid for because of exchangers. Such a short notice trip is pretty rare, though. I don't think many people would undertake such a long trip without a couple of day's notice. As long as you had more than one day's notice you'd be covered in the proposed scheme because you'd be at the top of the list when rooms are assigned.

I'm not trying to get benefits for anybody other than myself, I just wouldn't mind  if someone else got something similar to me as long as the program worked. I'd be more concerned about too many people getting into the Elite program really impacting other benefits (like early check-in/late check-out), than allowing unused rooms to be used by anybody at the resort on a given week.


----------



## KOR5Star

Time2Ponder said:


> Hotels (especially those in major metropolitan areas) are likely to hold out some luxury rooms in the hope of acquiring some last-minute business travelers whose companies are paying full freight for their lodgings. If only a suite is available, then the company, alas, pays.
> 
> This is not the case with TSs, who are always looking out for the next possible owner/multi-owner, whom they really want to impress.


I'm sure we could search for a particular hotel that actually gets a decent amount of last minute biz travelers, but let's all take a giant step back to reality, OK?   

Let's compare apples to apples for a minute.  How many "walk-ins" do you thing The Westin Maui gets?  How about the Maui Sheraton?  I'd dare guess very few.  Well.. I have to confess.  I KNOW it's damn few because I just got off the phone with both hotels.  They said it's *very* rare.   I'd also dare to say MOST hotels in resort areas would experience about the same amount.

A quick call to my a Sheraton here on Long Island has just confirmed the same thing.  It happens, but it's not the norm.

So, back to your argument about hotels and last minute renters.  It's an inaccurate assumption on your part.    

The daily usage cost of a 1BR are almost twice that of a studio.  Your basis for offering upgrades seems to assume the cost of staying in a studio or 1BR are comparable.

Your altruistic suggestion would cost us quite a bit of money each year.


----------



## KOR5Star

emuyshondt said:


> I'm not trying to get benefits for anybody other than myself, I just wouldn't mind  if someone else got something similar to me as long as the program worked. I'd be more concerned about too many people getting into the Elite program really impacting other benefits (like early check-in/late check-out), than allowing unused rooms to be used by anybody at the resort on a given week.


I'm with you half way on this paragraph.  I agree with the first half, but dissagree that the program would work.

Also, you seem to be assuming the unused room is "free".  Remember, an upgrade is supposed to be for unit size only, so these "free" upgrades are from studio to 1BR.  This is not free.  In fact, the cost almost doubles.  Going from a 1BR IV to a 1BR OV... now THAT is free.  But what is currently defined as an upgrade is not free.  

IMHO, our MFs would go through the roof, because all the most expensive units to maintain would have incredibly high occupancy rates and the cheapest units to maintain would have the lowest occupancy.

Again, it's an altruistic suggestion that earns you points on the "good guy" scale, but financially speaking, it's a bomb and could even cost the very people you're trying to help the ability to own.  The MFs could get so high as to be unaffordable for many.


----------



## Time2Ponder

KOR5Star said:


> The daily usage cost of a 1BR are almost twice that of a studio.  Your basis for offering upgrades seems to assume the cost of staying in a studio or 1BR are comparable.



Other than AC usage (which itself is quite variable, depending upon individual considerations), explain to me how they are not. Are additional towels used? Additional housekeeping? Additional water?

Any "extra" costs with regard to furniture, etc. were incurred at the resort's inception; they are sunken costs. Any additional costs required by them will be incremental (according to the mathematical usage of the word) and will be reflected in the MFs (which vary incrementally according to square footage).



KOR5Star said:


> Your altruistic suggestion would cost us quite a bit of money each year.



And upgrading elites to better rooms would not, in the end, cost non-elite owners additional money for benefits of which they not the recipients?? How is this fair to the non-elite owners, taken on a resort-by-resort basis? Should I, as a WKORV owner, either have to pay higher MFs (for your upgrades) or get jammed out of a better room simply because you, as an elite, own at Harborside -- a completely unrelated resort?


----------



## KOR5Star

Time2Ponder said:


> Other than AC usage (which itself is quite variable, depending upon individual considerations), explain to me how they are not. Are additional towels used? Additional housekeeping? Additional water?


Set yourself up why don't you!  

Additonal towels?  Yes, I believe more towels are provided in a 1BR than a studio.

Additional housekeeping? Absolutely! Unless you're trying to maintain that cleaning one room of 500 square feet takes exactly the same effort as cleaning two rooms and a full kitchen of 900 square feet.  

Additional water?  No

The furniture, carpeting, counter tops, appliances, etc... takes a beating with each guest.  Yes, I realize YOU take care of things when YOU are there, but the wear and tear needs to be averaged over the number of stays.  Believe it or not, all these "things" wear out faster when the unit is used more.    There are more "things" in a 1BR unit than a studio.



Time2Ponder said:


> Any "extra" costs with regard to furniture, etc. were incurred at the resort's inception; they are sunken costs. Any additional costs required by them will be incremental (according to the mathematical usage of the word) and will be reflected in the MFs (which vary incrementally according to square footage).


This is only true if you assume they will never replace anything on a room by room basis.  Once one thing in one room needs replacing the entire resort will be renovated.  Only then can you take a single snapshot at inception of the cost and maintain equality with the rest of the facility.

If units need to be "refreshed" your "sunken cost" argument goes out the window because now the extra wear and tear has added a cost outside those "sunken costs".

This is really a simple concept if you just give me the benefit of the doubt for a minute.  

Did you ever notice that people change their kitchens and bathrooms way more often then their bedrooms?  That's because kitchens and bathrooms are high traffic areas.  They wear out faster.  People try to take care of their homes... they really do.  But usage is usage.  Stuff wears out and breaks. Although we spend A LOT of time in a bedroom, we really don't wear things out... other than the blankets, sheets and mattress.

Same thing applies to 1BR units if everyone were upgraded into them.  They'd wear out faster than the studios because they'd simply be used more.  And since there are more things to wear out in them, it costs much more than wearing out a studio.  Hence, each stay in a 1BR costs more in maintenance than each stay in a studio.

Therefore, our MFs would go through the roof if they started to upgrade everyone.



Time2Ponder said:


> And upgrading elites to better rooms would not, in the end, cost non-elite owners additional money for benefits of which they not the recipients?? How is this fair to the non-elite owners, taken on a resort-by-resort basis? Should I, as a WKORV owner, either have to pay higher MFs (for your upgrades) or get jammed out of a better room simply because you, as an elite, own at Harborside -- a completely unrelated resort?


Answering the last first... Harborside is not a completely unrelated resort.  It's in the SVN and you, as a WKORV owner, have as much right to their facilities as they have to ours (I own all my weeks at WKORV).  

Yes, my upgrade as a 5* costs you money.  No doubt about it.  Perhaps thats just another reason Starwood was trying to kill the benefit.

Compared to the differences multi-week owners enjoy in other networks, this upgrade cost forced on the masses is small potatoes, but it is a cost.  The only savior is that most people are NOT elite, and if you consider most elites (like everyone else) vacation during peak times, they don't often get upgrades.  So there is much restraint in the system that gives away your money to elites like me.  Let everyone upgrade and that restraint dissappears.  Everyone would upgrade whenever they could, 52 weeks out of the year and costs of their upgraded stays would be nearly twice what it would be without the upgrade.

Think of it like this:  If you get a couple of rain drops on you, it's tough to notice and it won't bother you in the least.  Have someone dump a bucket of water over your head and you're gonna feel it and be annoyed.

The current system of elite upgrades is like a very light rain.  Yes, you're getting wet, but it's hardly noticeable.  Giving everyone upgrades would be like getting hit with the bucket.


----------



## duke

I do NOT like the idea of upgrade at checkin.  And, I do not think it is possible.  SVO allocates rooms from their central office.  They do not have the systems to do it at check-in.

Moreover, If I have an IV or Studio .....  I would like to know * in advance * what I am going to get.

I like the current policy and want to keep it.

I agree that Starwood's logic makes no sense......Like the pool chair example...I can't find a chair at the pool and complain....so Starwood should remove all the chairs.  Bad logic.

And the ELITE program is just what it is ... ELITE.  The higher levels should receive more.  Buy more and get more!!!


----------



## KOR5Star

duke said:


> I do NOT like the idea of upgrade at checkin.  And, I do not think it is possible.  SVO allocates rooms from their central office.  They do not have the systems to do it at check-in.
> 
> Moreover, If I have an IV or Studio .....  I would like to know * in advance * what I am going to get.
> 
> I like the current policy and want to keep it.
> 
> I agree that Starwood's logic makes no sense......Like the pool chair example...I can't find a chair at the pool and complain....so Starwood should remove all the chairs.  Bad logic.
> 
> And the ELITE program is just what it is ... ELITE.  The higher levels should receive more.  Buy more and get more!!!


You may not like the idea, but why would you think it impossible?  

Starwood has a hotel reservation system.  That doesn't mean the hotels don't have any flexibility in what you get when you check-in.  It's the same with our timeshares.  Orlando is simply the reservation system.  The front desk at our resorts already have ultimate power in unit location and anything else you can imagine.  Why not upgrades?

You may like it the way it is, but it's clear that Starwood feels a change needs to be made.  Compromise usually leads to a satisfactory outcome for both parties.  Locking in your heels and not budging usually means one party is leaving the table as a loser.  And tell me, if it came down between us and Starwood, who would be the losers?  The sad truth is they can change almost anything they want.  Why not compromise and live to fight another day?

Out of curiosity, why is it so important to know the unit size before you arrive.    I've been trying, but have not been able to think of a good reason why I would *NEED* to know this information in advance.


----------



## Time2Ponder

KOR5Star said:


> Set yourself up why don't you!
> 
> Additonal towels?  Yes, I believe more towels are provided in a 1BR than a studio.
> 
> Additional housekeeping? Absolutely! Unless you're trying to maintain that cleaning one room of 500 square feet takes exactly the same effort as cleaning two rooms and a full kitchen of 900 square feet.
> 
> Additional water?  No



A whopping two additional towels are provided in the 1BR; hardly a deal- breaker. 

And with regard to housekeeping, I have a difficult time believing that paying a minimum-wage housekeeping worker for the extra hour's worth of work required to clean a 1BR (if it is required) is not a deal-breaker. To be honest, I think the amount of housekeeping required for each room depends upon the number of individuals in a room plus their individual habits. My husband and I leave our 1BR much cleaner, I'll guess, than a family of four (with two kids) will leave a studio. JMO. YMMV.



KOR5Star said:


> The furniture, carpeting, counter tops, appliances, etc... takes a beating with each guest.  Yes, I realize YOU take care of things when YOU are there, but the wear and tear needs to be averaged over the number of stays.  Believe it or not, all these "things" wear out faster when the unit is used more.    There are more "things" in a 1BR unit than a studio.



And I'm still betting that studios get the most wear-and-tear, based primarily on the fact that it is the studio side of LO(s that are rented out by owners. Plus, when a family of four is cooped up in one....



KOR5Star said:


> Answering the last first... Harborside is not a completely unrelated resort.  It's in the SVN and you, as a WKORV owner, have as much right to their facilities as they have to ours (I own all my weeks at WKORV).
> 
> Yes, my upgrade as a 5* costs you money.  No doubt about it.  Perhaps thats just another reason Starwood was trying to kill the benefit.
> 
> Compared to the differences multi-week owners enjoy in other networks, this upgrade cost forced on the masses is small potatoes, but it is a cost.  The only savior is that most people are NOT elite, and if you consider most elites (like everyone else) vacation during peak times, they don't often get upgrades.  So there is much restraint in the system that gives away your money to elites like me.  Let everyone upgrade and that restraint dissappears.  Everyone would upgrade whenever they could, 52 weeks out of the year and costs of their upgraded stays would be nearly twice what it would be without the upgrade.
> 
> Think of it like this:  If you get a couple of rain drops on you, it's tough to notice and it won't bother you in the least.  Have someone dump a bucket of water over your head and you're gonna feel it and be annoyed.
> 
> The current system of elite upgrades is like a very light rain.  Yes, you're getting wet, but it's hardly noticeable.  Giving everyone upgrades would be like getting hit with the bucket.




You are really far off the mark here. What is small potatoes to someone can be a whole crop to someone else. What's more, according to my understanding, there are approximately 20,000 elite owners. If upgrades are given out constantly, your assertion of the costs of elite upgrades is hardly the light rain you postulate. Think severe thunderstorm, especially in terms of MF. 

Again, why should I pay -- at all -- for your upgrades simply because you own more than one week of a SVN TS? I'm more than happy to pay my freight. But the idea that I should pay yours, too, is a lot of horse hockey.


----------



## KOR5Star

Time2Ponder said:


> You are really far off the mark here. What is small potatoes to someone can be a whole crop to someone else. What's more, according to my understanding, there are approximately 20,000 elite owners. If upgrades are given out constantly, your assertion of the costs of elite upgrades is hardly the light rain you postulate. Think severe thunderstorm, especially in terms of MF.
> 
> Again, why should I pay -- at all -- for your upgrades simply because you own more than one week of a SVN TS? I'm more than happy to pay my freight. But the idea that I should pay yours, too, is a lot of horse hockey.


You should really to pick one or the other to maintain a rational argument.

You can't trivialize the costs of upgrading from a studio to a one bedroom, then complain about the high cost of an elite doing the same exact thing.

Either it's trivial or it's not.  Pick one.

I believe the cost per event is trivial... like a single drop of water.  I believe the current cost of elites getting upgrades might test the limits of trivial... like a light drizzle.  I believe if EVERYONE were upgraded, the water would burst the dam and flood the whole darn town. 

You obviously believe a lot of people rent out their studios.  I don't see any evidence of this.  Sure, I see some adds on TUG, Redweek, etc... but even if we looked everywhere and found hundreds, do you realize how many units are out there?  Even hundreds, which I don't see BTW, would be a drop in the bucket.

Am I missing something?  Is there some vast repository of studios for rent somewhere that I missed?

You also believe renters trash the places they rent.  Did you trash places when you rented?  I certainly didn't.  Nobody I know did.  Although there are some inconsiderate people out there, I'll tell you from experience (my family has owned a resort hotel and rental homes since I was a kid) most people DO NOT trash their units.  

It's my experience that most people want to do the right thing.  Some renters trash.  The VAST MAJORITY do not.  I suspect the owners that trashed when they rented, still trash as owners.

The bottom line is this:  If you don't like the program, call up and complain about it.  I've been rallying owners around the "stop requals" banner, which is quite unpopular here on TUG.  Why not start rallying owners against elite upgrades?  

We all have our opinions and we are all right.  Fight for what is right to you.  Just don't let it get to you if you fail.  I don't like requals, but if I fail at stopping the practice I'm not going to be bitter.  If you fail at taking away perks for elites, let it go and be happy.

Of course, if you're successful I'll sell my weeks for dirt cheap to the filthiest people I can find.

Nah... only kidding.


----------



## mariawolf

Anyone else get a call?


----------



## KOR5Star

mariawolf said:


> Anyone else get a call?



Yes.  Same story as others.


----------



## wannagotoo

This has taken away a primary incentive for people to buy multiple units along with discrediting Starwood.


----------



## nodge

I’ve often wondered what ever happened to: 1) the management team that approved “New Coke,” and 2) all of those Radio Shack TRS-80 and Commodore 64 computers that were all the rage 30+ years ago.  I’m glad to know that they all found a nice, comfortable home at SVN.  

Anyone for a game of Pong?

-nodge


----------



## KOR5Star

wannagotoo said:


> This has taken away a primary incentive for people to buy multiple units along with discrediting Starwood.



You've got that right!  

I only hope Suzanne's concern translates into a reversal of this awful decision.


----------



## Bill4728

KOR5Star said:


> The bottom line is this:  If you don't like the program (_elite changes_), call up and complain about it.  I've been rallying owners around the "stop requals" banner, which is quite unpopular here on TUG.  Why not start rallying owners against elite upgrades?
> 
> We all have our opinions and we are all right.  Fight for what is right to you.  Just don't let it get to you if you fail.  I don't like requals, but if I fail at stopping the practice I'm not going to be bitter.  If you fail at taking away perks for elites, let it go and be happy.


Kor5star

Why don't you like requals?


----------



## Henry M.

I'm not KOR5Star, but I can see a problem with making it too easy to join the Elite ranks with requals.

The Elite program is supposed to reward those that are loyal SVO customers and have made a significant investment in SVO properties. As anything else, the program costs something and is funded out of the money used to buy the additional time required to become Elite. Part of the extra money that is paid for a developer week goes towards this program. When you buy resale you don't give Starwood the money that goes to fund this program. You are basically sneaking in through a back door and are not one of the invited guests. If enough people requal, then the program will have to be reduced or eliminated since it will no longer be appropriately funded. There will not be enough food for everyone if there are too many party crashers.

Some might say that there shouldn't be an Elite program at all since that could potentially reduce the price of all the units. Others, however, find that they benefit from the program and that it enhances the desirability of being a multiple week owner. I fall in the latter camp and would rather Elite benefits were set aside for those that have actually earned/bought them. A room upgrade is one thing, but the rest of the benefits and future enhancements could be greatly curtailed by too many people getting them without having paid for them.


----------



## calgarygary

emuyshondt said:


> I'm not KOR5Star, but I can see a problem with making it too easy to join the Elite ranks with requals.
> 
> The Elite program is supposed to reward those that are loyal SVO customers and have made a significant investment in SVO properties. As anything else, the program costs something and is funded out of the money used to buy the additional time required to become Elite. Part of the extra money that is paid for a developer week goes towards this program. When you buy resale you don't give Starwood the money that goes to fund this program. You are basically sneaking in through a back door and are not one of the invited guests. If enough people requal, then the program will have to be reduced or eliminated since it will no longer be appropriately funded. There will not be enough food for everyone if there are too many party crashers.
> 
> Some might say that there shouldn't be an Elite program at all since that could potentially reduce the price of all the units. Others, however, find that they benefit from the program and that it enhances the desirability of being a multiple week owner. I fall in the latter camp and would rather Elite benefits were set aside for those that have actually earned/bought them. A room upgrade is one thing, but the rest of the benefits and future enhancements could be greatly curtailed by too many people getting them without having paid for them.



I am brand new to timesharing and what little I already know tells me that you are not sneaking in through the back door uninvited.  You have requalified a week through the developer and as such, have that invitation.  The weeks were all paid for at developer prices at some point in time, and actually, due to transfer fees, the developer has probably realized more income from resales.  As such, to say that Starwood has not realized the income to fund the Elite program is a flawed arguement.


----------



## KOR5Star

Bill4728 said:


> Kor5star
> 
> Why don't you like requals?


Because I think requals are incredibly unfair to the people that bought from the developer.  

There are people that can not afford to become 5 Star and would desperately like to be, yet others have become 5 Star for as little as $89K.  That "requal'ed 5 Star Elite" now trumps the Starwood customer who bought from the developer, paid more money, but has less status.

It is my opinion that Starwood should stand behind it's official claims.  Sounds like a no-brainer, but clearly they don't.  

This is NOT the result of people believing salesman's lies.  It is the official stated position of Starwood.  I've spoken to several managers as well as a VP.  The salespeople are officially instructed by Starwood to tell customers that the only way to get the perks is to buy from the developer.  Many of the salespeople that learn about requals feel duped.

The requal program was intended for people that bought a week on the open market and realized they wanted the whole package and were willing to pay for it.  It was a way to be inclusive and accomdating.  It became nothing more than a loophole that is exploited.  It should be closed, or at least fixed.

I'd like to see a requal program that is at least one-to-one and is subject to approval by a high level manager, to make sure it's being used in the manner it was intended... not as a loophole to be exploited.


----------



## KOR5Star

emuyshondt said:


> I'm not KOR5Star, but I can see a problem with making it too easy to join the Elite ranks with requals.
> 
> The Elite program is supposed to reward those that are loyal SVO customers and have made a significant investment in SVO properties. As anything else, the program costs something and is funded out of the money used to buy the additional time required to become Elite. Part of the extra money that is paid for a developer week goes towards this program. When you buy resale you don't give Starwood the money that goes to fund this program. You are basically sneaking in through a back door and are not one of the invited guests. If enough people requal, then the program will have to be reduced or eliminated since it will no longer be appropriately funded. There will not be enough food for everyone if there are too many party crashers.
> 
> Some might say that there shouldn't be an Elite program at all since that could potentially reduce the price of all the units. Others, however, find that they benefit from the program and that it enhances the desirability of being a multiple week owner. I fall in the latter camp and would rather Elite benefits were set aside for those that have actually earned/bought them. A room upgrade is one thing, but the rest of the benefits and future enhancements could be greatly curtailed by too many people getting them without having paid for them.


I responded to *Bill4728* already, but if I would have read your response first, I would have simply wrote "Yeah.  What he said!".

You may not be me, but you have my permission to play me on TV anytime. :rofl:


----------



## Henry M.

calgarygary said:


> I am brand new to timesharing and what little I already know tells me that you are not sneaking in through the back door uninvited.  You have requalified a week through the developer and as such, have that invitation.  The weeks were all paid for at developer prices at some point in time, and actually, due to transfer fees, the developer has probably realized more income from resales.  As such, to say that Starwood has not realized the income to fund the Elite program is a flawed arguement.



The Elite program works only if there are a limited number of people that buy into it. If you cheapen it through requals, then the number of Elites can increase to a level that makes the program become unsustainable.


----------



## KOR5Star

calgarygary said:


> I am brand new to timesharing and what little I already know tells me that you are not sneaking in through the back door uninvited.  You have requalified a week through the developer and as such, have that invitation.  The weeks were all paid for at developer prices at some point in time, and actually, due to transfer fees, the developer has probably realized more income from resales.  As such, to say that Starwood has not realized the income to fund the Elite program is a flawed arguement.


Not all that flawed.  The funding for the program is more than just the price paid.  

Why do you think Starwood wants to entice people to own multiple weeks?  Why would they care?  Think about it.  Why would it really matter to Starwood if people owned a bunch of weeks or if everyone just owned one.  They have no problem selling them.  That's for sure.

It's the same reason Las Vegas caters to "whales".

I'm opening myself up to flames here because I'm going to get into class distinctions that I'm sure will ruffle some feathers.  I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.  I'm just speaking the truth.  It's the way of the world.  

I think people that become 5 Star through the developer fully recognize the lack of real value their purchase has.  It is an indulgent luxury bought with disposable assets.  Those able to dispose of a few hundred thousand in this way are more likely to have Starwood stock their fridge, book not just one or two, but many excursions and activities through the concierge, make multiple visits to the spa, etc... In other words, spend a lot more money with Starwood using its services.

If someone needed to go through the hassles of purchasing, then requal'ing, often fighting.... yada, yada, yada... to save a few bucks.  I'm sure they are NOT as likely to use Starwood's services.  These are the people that run off to Star Market as soon as they arrive and pinch pennies all along the way to their next trip to Hawaii possible.

In other words, they are not actually "elite".  They just maneuvered their way into getting some of the perks of elite, but they do not enjoy an elite lifestyle and they do not represent the income stream to Starwood that a true elite represents.

Now please!  Don't read what I just wrote and think that I believe the wealther person is a better person.  That's not what I'm saying at all.  All I'm saying is the wealthier person tends to spend more money on vacation... therefore generating more income for Starwood... therefore enticing Starwood to "sweeten the pot" and try to attract that type of clientele with an "elite" program.

Why do I open my mouth?  I just know I'm going to get flames for simply speaking the truth.


----------



## KOR5Star

emuyshondt said:


> The Elite program works only if there are a limited number of people that buy into it. If you cheapen it through requals, then the number of Elites can increase to a level that makes the program become unsustainable.


Yeah.  What he said! 

Basically what I said, but with far fewer words and not opening himself up to flames.  Doh!


----------



## skim118

emuyshondt said:


> The Elite program works only if there are a limited number of people that buy into it. If you cheapen it through requals, then the number of Elites can increase to a level that makes the program become unsustainable.



Don't worry about the fact that there are too many riff-raff Elites in the SVN program.  

I am sure the marketing minds at SVN are actively coming up with new incentives when they create brand-new Elite levels 6 star & 7 star(just like Cat 6 & 7 levels in SPG)


----------



## wannagotoo

Back in May, the "marketing minds" sent a letter:

"We are pleased to report that construction is progressing beautifully...based on our pace we are on track for an on time opening of the resort in the fall of 2007."  When we bought at WKORV-N we were told that it would open end of May. Do they really think that the buyers forgot that?

Now we get a letter "There’s no better way to celebrate the three-year anniversary of the Starwood Vacation Network(SM) Elite program than by enhancing your membership benefits." So we are not supposed to notice what was removed?

Unfortunately, deception is a major part of the Starwood program.


----------



## Time2Ponder

KOR5Star said:


> Not all that flawed.  The funding for the program is more than just the price paid.
> 
> Why do you think Starwood wants to entice people to own multiple weeks?  Why would they care?  Think about it.  Why would it really matter to Starwood if people owned a bunch of weeks or if everyone just owned one.  They have no problem selling them.  That's for sure.
> 
> It's the same reason Las Vegas caters to "whales".
> 
> I'm opening myself up to flames here because I'm going to get into class distinctions that I'm sure will ruffle some feathers.  I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.  I'm just speaking the truth.  It's the way of the world.
> 
> I think people that become 5 Star through the developer fully recognize the lack of real value their purchase has.  It is an indulgent luxury bought with disposable assets.  Those able to dispose of a few hundred thousand in this way are more likely to have Starwood stock their fridge, book not just one or two, but many excursions and activities through the concierge, make multiple visits to the spa, etc... In other words, spend a lot more money with Starwood using its services.
> 
> If someone needed to go through the hassles of purchasing, then requal'ing, often fighting.... yada, yada, yada... to save a few bucks.  I'm sure they are NOT as likely to use Starwood's services.  These are the people that run off to Star Market as soon as they arrive and pinch pennies all along the way to their next trip to Hawaii possible.
> 
> In other words, they are not actually "elite".  They just maneuvered their way into getting some of the perks of elite, but they do not enjoy an elite lifestyle and they do not represent the income stream to Starwood that a true elite represents.
> 
> Now please!  Don't read what I just wrote and think that I believe the wealther person is a better person.  That's not what I'm saying at all.  All I'm saying is the wealthier person tends to spend more money on vacation... therefore generating more income for Starwood... therefore enticing Starwood to "sweeten the pot" and try to attract that type of clientele with an "elite" program.
> 
> Why do I open my mouth?  I just know I'm going to get flames for simply speaking the truth.




I, for one, am not going to flame you. 

However, don't you think Starwood would be better off simply charging an initiation fee and then subsequent yearly dues for a true "Elite" program? What I'm sort of thinking of here is similar to Universal Studios/Islands of Adventure's "Front of the Line" access. 

Let's face it: how many timeshares can a person own? My husband and I are already maxed out (with vacations, schools, etc.) with regard to timeshares. So, there's no way we're going to buy another TS at this point in our lives. 

And yet, when we do go on vacation, we tend to do "premium"-type things (powered hanggliding, parasailing, horseback riding, etc.). The only time we eat in our room is lunch (and then, not always). We're the lazy, cash-dropping  customers whom Starwood loves to see pull up to the door. And if Starwood offered some sort of true "Elite" program like the "Front of the Line" access offered at Universal, we might very well go for it -- simply for early check-in and delayed check-outs. 

Anyway, just thinking outside the box here for a true "Elite" program: You get what you pay for... and pay for... and pay for... and pay for.... It's the American way!!


----------



## KOR5Star

Time2Ponder said:


> I, for one, am not going to flame you.
> 
> However, don't you think Starwood would be better off simply charging an initiation fee and then subsequent yearly dues for a true "Elite" program? What I'm sort of thinking of here is similar to Universal Studios/Islands of Adventure's "Front of the Line" access.
> 
> Anyway, just thinking outside the box here for a true "Elite" program: You get what you pay for... and pay for... and pay for... and pay for.... It's the American way!!


Yes, we think alike, but I was afraid of bringing it up for fear of a REAL flaming.  What we're suggesting here would not be taken lightly by existing members.

I was thinking more in lines with a Country Club model.  You initially buy in at some "going rate" price.  You then have annual dues and a commitment to spend a certain amount of money with the facility.  If you want out, you can sell your membership for the going rate price to the next person on the waiting list.

Right now they have less than 1500 5 Stars, so make the the max membership 2000 and let it ride. 

But even if they did something like this, I still believe they need to live up to their promises.  They promised a very valuable perk to thousands of people and now they think they can just pull that perk because it didn't work out like they planned... opps!  No.  They need to reinstate the perk.

I'd like to see Starwood reinstate the upgrade perk AND I'd like to see an internal "club".  Of course it should have tennis and golf privledges and a built-in discount for food, merchandise and services (since there would be a bond and a mandatory minimum spend agreement).


----------



## pointsjunkie

if starwood sells 500 units at full developer prices to 200 families and getting their money for each, then 50 families sell to other people .starwood already received their money for the units then the 50 people buy 50 other units and starwood allows the resale units that they already received payment on to be brought back into the system and they get 50 extra sales out of it, then they are ahead of the game. starwood is happy and so are the new owners.

when we go on vacation we are spenders, would i love to get to 5* using the requal system ,yes i would. i would love the platinum perk and of course is reinstated the upgrades. it has become a game, how to get there for as little as possible. $120-$130 thousand is certainly not a little bit of money. we have bought 4 developer weeks,paid my dues and now want to get to the finish line with some extra help with requals.

hope my rambling didn't confuse you all. i am watching a movie while i am writing


----------



## mepiccolo

There's a big elephant in the living room that no one has mentioned here.  If you have the money to spend purchasing several units from the developer - why not just buy the best possible view category and be assured it each time you vacation there instead of buying several units and hoping for an upgrade?  A high percentage of the people here on TUG who purchased one unit through the developer have gone on to make their next purchase on the resale market-without giving a thought about trying to requalify it to get to elite status.  The lure of being an elite member is just not there for everyone, and certainly not for my husband and I.  We've made all our purchases on the resale market, have made sure to buy an oceanfront unit each time and we are completely happy with our purchases and our "status".  For us, we'd rather arrive knowing we have one of the best units in the resort instead of showing up and having the concierge be extra nice to us while they have us wait in a "special" lounge to see if an upgrade is available.


----------



## jerseygirl

I'll risk getting flamed as well ....

I think it might be a mistake to assume that people who enjoy paying less than retail can't afford to pay retail.

This thread reminds me of a story ...

A hungry fox noticed a juicy bunch of grapes growing high on a grapevine. He leaped. He snapped. Drooling, he jumped to reach them, but try as he might, he could not obtain the tasty prize. 

Disappointed by the fruitless efforts he'd made to get the grapes that day, he said, with a shrug, to comfort himself, "Oh, they were probably sour anyway!"


----------



## grgs

KOR5Star said:


> There are people that can not afford to become 5 Star and would desperately like to be, yet others have become 5 Star for as little as $89K.  That "requal'ed 5 Star Elite" now trumps the Starwood customer who bought from the developer, paid more money, but has less status.



I'm not going to flame you, but I did want to check on your $89K figure.  Westin5Star said he achieved 5 star with _*$189K *_in purchases.  Is this who you're referring to?  Or did I miss another post somewhere?

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48116

Glorian


----------



## califgal

I've just looked in on this thread again and I have to say to Jersey Girl.....Well said!!!

KOR5star you might have bought all of your timeshares at developer prices but, unfortunately your money can't buy you social graces.


----------



## Ekaaj

califgal said:


> I've just looked in on this thread again and I have to say to Jersey Girl.....Well said!!!
> 
> KOR5star you might have bought all of your timeshares at developer prices but, unfortunately your money can't buy you social graces.



I have been following this thread quietly, and I must say I agree with califgal.  I am not fond of anyone (Kor5Star) who essentially says, "I don't want to offend people, I just want to write down whatever rude remark comes into my head."  



			
				KOR5Star said:
			
		

> I'm opening myself up to flames here because I'm going to get into class distinctions that I'm sure will ruffle some feathers. I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. I'm just speaking the truth. It's the way of the world.



The 1800's called. They want their class system back.

Feel free to put out the flames with a bottle of Cristal.  Come on, we all KNOW you can afford it...isn't that what this is all about?


----------



## KOR5Star

grgs said:


> I'm not going to flame you, but I did want to check on your $89K figure.  Westin5Star said he achieved 5 star with _*$189K *_in purchases.  Is this who you're referring to?  Or did I miss another post somewhere?
> 
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48116
> 
> Glorian


IIRC, Westin5Star was the guy that requal'ed EYs by purchasing EOYs... which started me on my quest to complain about requals.  Again, I'm OK with one-to-one, but buy a tiny bit and requal a whole honkin' bunch is a bit over the  top.

But to answer your question, no, Westin5Star is not the one that bought 5*  for $89K.


----------



## KOR5Star

jerseygirl said:


> I think it might be a mistake to assume that people who enjoy paying less than retail can't afford to pay retail.


I knew the flames were coming.  

I'm starting to believe people would rather get their panties in a knot than to analyze something unemotionally.  

My point is people who enjoy working to find bargains tend to continue doing so.  

They won't eat at the hotel resturant more than once for $200 when they can get in their car and eat a mile away for $150.  They won't have Starwood stock their kitchen when they can make a stop at Star Market, spend an hour and have everything they want at half the price.

The two types of people I outlined represent a difference in the potential revenue stream to Starwood.  An enhanced revenue stream for goods and services is the very reason why Starwood would have an Elite program in the first place.  They want to attract the people who represent that larger revenue stream... the ones that don't enjoy working for a bargain... the ones that just want it and get it... not the bargain hunters.


----------



## KOR5Star

Ekaaj said:


> I have been following this thread quietly, and I must say I agree with califgal.  I am not fond of anyone (Kor5Star) who essentially says, "I don't want to offend people, I just want to write down whatever rude remark comes into my head."
> 
> The 1800's called. They want their class system back.
> 
> Feel free to put out the flames with a bottle of Cristal.  Come on, we all KNOW you can afford it...isn't that what this is all about?


It's sad that people have such a hard time being objective.

Don't shoot the messenger.  I simply put in writing a mentality and methodology corporations use to increase the bottom line... to lure big spenders.  

This shouldn't shock you.  It shouldn't insult you.  It happens all around you every day of your life.  

Do you not see certain people getting the best tables at resturants?  Ever notice the manager, owner or chef making a visit to a particular table?  How do you think the resturant decides who gets this treatment?  How would you feel if you frequented a resturant on a weekly or even daily basis and people that haven't spent nearly as much as you got the better tables and VIP treatment while you simply looked on day after day?   Would you continue to frequent that resturant?  I think not.  Welcome to the class system. :rofl:  

It's all about revenue stream.  The problem with timeshare is there is no way to track spending and provide rewards after the fact.  They need to predict spending patterns and reward before the fact because they can't be subjective with their rewards like a resturant can. 

I'm sure they did an analysis and saw that multi-week owners spent more money.  So "Elite" was born to lure more of these spenders into the program.

And yes, I've been very lucky in life, but it doesn't change our reality.  Apparently it's a reason you dislike me.  It reminds me of a story...

A hungry fox noticed a juicy bunch of grapes growing high on a grapevine....


----------



## KOR5Star

califgal said:


> I've just looked in on this thread again and I have to say to Jersey Girl.....Well said!!!
> 
> KOR5star you might have bought all of your timeshares at developer prices but, unfortunately your money can't buy you social graces.


Clearly you don't agree with what I said. Typically when that happens to me I try to offer an intelligent counterpoint to what was written.  I find it much more effective than your chosen path to respond.


----------



## beacowboy

*We love Maui too.*

Maui helped us decide that timesharing, all things considered, is not a bad option despite the shortcomings: long term cost, long term commitment, immediate depreciation at time of purchase.  If you are like us and "want Maui", then be ready to spend discretionary income.  The slice of "paradise" even though a costly lengthy plane ride away is worth it for us.  If sold on the concept and discretionary income hit and then also the Maui location, then the issues of : long term quality, maint fees, deed, and specific amenities emerge as the crucial issues.

If you love Hawaii,

and have unlimited means, would buy a second home there.

and have limited means, and 1-2 week pampered escapes from the "grind" is the goal, then would buy one of the Hotel brand timeshares either via the predictable direct developer route of the hit or miss, "trust or not" , resale route. 

and have limited means, and don't need the on site pampering, and if more time is the goal, then would buy many weeks (as more economical) a non hotel brand timeshare such as One Napili Way or equivalent (consider the Big Island...since it is still growing).

Now to answer specifically,

Maui Marriott and Westin are both very expensive.
If you are OK using 50K OR MORE.... because the pampering is what you envision for your escape, then we endorse your thinking hysterical: just kidding, we really do since we think buying location and quality is better than buying "pair of pants" you'll never wear....

Spend away, trade, and be happy but ready to commit and pay yearly maint fees !   

Would buy the new one units if they truly are purpose built and with full functioning kitchens.

Would buy either Maui or Big Island Waikoloa as (knock on wood) these areas are less likely to be devastated by hurricanes.

Best of Luck....we love helping others spend their money !    

Love these icons:    Y'all come back now.


----------



## calgarygary

KOR5Star said:


> Not all that flawed.  The funding for the program is more than just the price paid.
> 
> Why do you think Starwood wants to entice people to own multiple weeks?  Why would they care?  Think about it.  Why would it really matter to Starwood if people owned a bunch of weeks or if everyone just owned one.  They have no problem selling them.  That's for sure.
> 
> It's the same reason Las Vegas caters to "whales".
> 
> I'm opening myself up to flames here because I'm going to get into class distinctions that I'm sure will ruffle some feathers.  I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.  I'm just speaking the truth.  It's the way of the world.
> 
> I think people that become 5 Star through the developer fully recognize the lack of real value their purchase has.  It is an indulgent luxury bought with disposable assets.  Those able to dispose of a few hundred thousand in this way are more likely to have Starwood stock their fridge, book not just one or two, but many excursions and activities through the concierge, make multiple visits to the spa, etc... In other words, spend a lot more money with Starwood using its services.
> 
> If someone needed to go through the hassles of purchasing, then requal'ing, often fighting.... yada, yada, yada... to save a few bucks.  I'm sure they are NOT as likely to use Starwood's services.  These are the people that run off to Star Market as soon as they arrive and pinch pennies all along the way to their next trip to Hawaii possible.
> 
> In other words, they are not actually "elite".  They just maneuvered their way into getting some of the perks of elite, but they do not enjoy an elite lifestyle and they do not represent the income stream to Starwood that a true elite represents.
> 
> Now please!  Don't read what I just wrote and think that I believe the wealther person is a better person.  That's not what I'm saying at all.  All I'm saying is the wealthier person tends to spend more money on vacation... therefore generating more income for Starwood... therefore enticing Starwood to "sweeten the pot" and try to attract that type of clientele with an "elite" program.
> 
> Why do I open my mouth?  I just know I'm going to get flames for simply speaking the truth.



Again, a very flawed logic is presented.  The Las Vegas Whale, is comped rooms, meals, beverages, entertainment etc. to encourage their stay at a specific property so that their disposable income is spent where the real money is made - at the tables.  If we recognize that the same approach applies to the elite member, those that have saved disposable income in their purchase, are more likely to have that income available for the extras during their stay.  However the underlying error in your arguement is the belief that true elite's provide an income stream to Starwood.  Do not make the mistake that cash flow = profit.  In many cases, the services provided the guests are done so at minimal & often negative profit.  The "real" income for Starwood is in the sale of the unit, not in stocking it with groceries or providing spa services.  The Elite program is designed not to enhance cash flow, but rather to encourage multiple purchases, facilitating the sales department in selling out properties to ensure capital is available for future expansion.

As far as the arguement that too many members dilutes the elite experience, that is easily rectified by establishing a well publicized limit to membership, thus enticing current 3 & 4* to make that additional purchase.  

I too will now risk flames, KOR5Star, I personally believe that your concern with requalifications is not a belief in a class system or dilution of the elite experience with non-elite people, but rather that you didn't save the $200K or so to further enhance your stays.  After all, it's like purchasing a car, there are those that walk into a showroom and pay sticker, but there is real satisfaction in your purchase when you drive away knowing that you sweated every last penny out of the dealership.

PS - "Clearly you don't agree with what I said. Typically when that happens to me I try to offer an intelligent counterpoint to what was written. I find it much more effective than your chosen path to respond." "I'm starting to believe people would rather *get their panties in a knot *than to analyze something unemotionally."  Frankly, your chosen path involves a phrase that apparently is acceptable to you, but I think most find unacceptable.


----------



## jerseygirl

ROFL -- Is this where you spend your big bucks on dinner?  They must love the fact that you're willing to spend the $2.50 extra for cheese on your burger.

Dinner Menu at The Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas:

Island Pupus, Soups, and Salads

Chicken Wings Hawaiian Style  9.00
Volcanic tangy Spicy Sauce, and Coconut Ranch Dressing

Coconut Breaded Shrimp  10.50
Flaky Coconut and Panko, Asian Slaw and Mango Cocktail Sauce

Crab cake  12.00
On Asian Greens with Mango Cocktail and Remoulade sauce

Chicken Quesadilla  8.00
Sonoran Chicken with Chili and Spices, Jack Cheese in a Flour Tortilla

Tomato, Onion and Pepper Quesadilla  8.00
Sliced Kula Tomato, Kula Onion, Sweet Pepper, Jack Cheese in Flour Tortilla

California and Hawaiian Sushi Roll with Sashimi  15.95
Crab, Avocado Roll and Cucumber with Sweet Sushi Rice in Nori Roll

Spicy Seared Scallops  9.50
Cajun Spiced Scallops with Tropical Salsa and Kecapmanis

Island Pupu Platter  15.95
Sampler of Coconut Shrimp, Chicken Wings, and Veggie Spring Roll

Maui Onion soup  6.50
Caramelized Maui Onion with Sherry Wine and Cheese Croutons

House Made Chicken Noodle Soup  6.50
Chicken, Carrots, Celery, Onion and Fettuccini in Clear Chicken Broth

Classic Caesar Salad with Anchovy  9.75
Add Grilled Chicken Breast or Seared Rare Ahi  3.50

Fresh Upcountry Haiku Greens  7.00
Mesclun Greens with Cucumber and Tomatoes


Fresh House made Thin Crust Pizza

Cheese- Four Mild Italian Cheeses  12.00

Fresh tomato, Basil, and Parmesan cheese  12.50 
Kula Tomatoes, Fresh Basil, Aged Provolone Cheese

Pepperoni and Italian sausage  12.50
Pepperoni and Spicy Italian Sausage with Four Cheeses


Hawaiian Pineapple and Ham  12.50
Sweet Pineapple and Ham with Mild Marinara and Cheese

Mushroom, Peppers, and Maui Onion  12.50
Fresh Mushrooms, Peppers, and Maui Onion and Four cheeses

A $3.00 fee will be added to all split orders 


                                     Main Courses

Steak and Lobster- Mauka and Makai  39.95
Filet Mignon with Cabernet Sauce
10oz. Broiled Cold Water Lobster Tail and Drawn Butter

Grilled New York Steak  26.50
10 oz New York Steak, Choice of Rice Pilaf, Pasta, or Mashed Potatoes

Oven Roasted Chicken Breast  19.50
With Wild Mushroom Ragout and Rice Pilaf

Tournedos of Beef Tenderloin  29.50
Beef Filet with Cabernet Sauce, Served with Garlic Mashed Potatoes

Broiled Lobster Tail  33.50
Oven Broiled 10 oz. Cold Water Lobster Tail, Rice Pilaf, Pasta, or Mashed Potatoes

Fresh Island Hook of the Day  28.00
Sautéed Island Snapper with Lemon Passion Buerre Blanc

Grilled Fresh Maui Mahi Mahi and Tropical Fruit Salsa  26.00
Served with choice of Rice Pilaf, Pasta, or Mashed Potatoes

Penne with Shrimp and Scallops  27.50
Sautéed Shrimps and Scallops with White Wine Basil Cream Sauce

Four Cheese Ravioli Primavera  19.00
Fresh Vegetables in a Light Tomato Sauce Over Filled Pasta

Fettuccini Alfredo  15.50
Garlic Cream Sauce with Fresh Asiago Cheese and Herbs

Grilled Vegetable and Tofu Napoleon  16.50
Garden Vegetables, Wontons and Seared Tofu with Fresh Herb Tomato Sauce

Beach Burger  11.50
Grilled 8 oz Black Angus Beef Patty or Garden Burger
With Kula Lettuce, Maui Onions and Tomato

Extras:  2.50
Any Combination of Swiss, Cheddar or American cheese Bacon, Mushroom, Sautéed Onions



Chicken Teriyaki Burger  11.50
Grilled Breast, Teriyaki Sauce, Lettuce, Onion, Tomato  

Mahi Mahi Burger  11.50
Grilled Island Mahi Mahi, with Coleslaw, Lettuce, Onion, Tomato


----------



## KOR5Star

calgarygary said:


> Do not make the mistake that cash flow = profit.  In many cases, the services provided the guests are done so at minimal & often negative profit.  The "real" income for Starwood is in the sale of the unit, not in stocking it with groceries or providing spa services.  The Elite program is designed not to enhance cash flow, but rather to encourage multiple purchases, facilitating the sales department in selling out properties to ensure capital is available for future expansion.


I wasn't suggesting the relationship between whales at a casino and timeshare owners was a one-to-one comparison.  I was illustrating the efforts of managment to offer perks to attract high rollers.

You talk about flawed logic, then you present an unsustainable business plan as your argument?  What happens when the units get sold out? ... the facility goes bankrupt?  I do not discount the value of selling the units as fast as possible, but I think you go way off the reservation when you suggest that services at these resorts are provided at a loss.



calgarygary said:


> As far as the arguement that too many members dilutes the elite experience, that is easily rectified by establishing a well publicized limit to membership, thus enticing current 3 & 4* to make that additional purchase.


Agreed, that's one way to do it. 



calgarygary said:


> I too will now risk flames, KOR5Star, I personally believe that your concern with requalifications is not a belief in a class system or dilution of the elite experience with non-elite people, but rather that you didn't save the $200K or so to further enhance your stays.  After all, it's like purchasing a car, there are those that walk into a showroom and pay sticker, but there is real satisfaction in your purchase when you drive away knowing that you sweated every last penny out of the dealership.
> 
> PS - "Clearly you don't agree with what I said. Typically when that happens to me I try to offer an intelligent counterpoint to what was written. I find it much more effective than your chosen path to respond." "I'm starting to believe people would rather *get their panties in a knot *than to analyze something unemotionally."  Frankly, your chosen path involves a phrase that apparently is acceptable to you, but I think most find unacceptable.


Sounds like you've got your panties in a knot.  You clearly left the intelligent rebuttal mode and went into personal attack mode.

Don't be mistaken.  I am human too.  If insults and flames are hurled at me , don't be surprised if my reply is not squeeky clean of comments someone like yourself could get insulted by.  "Panties in a knot" is just another way of  saying "upset" and since it was in response to some rather nasty comments toward me that had nothing to do with the content of what I wrote, I thought it very appropriate.


----------



## KOR5Star

jerseygirl said:


> ROFL -- Is this where you spend your big bucks on dinner?  They must love the fact that you're willing to spend the $2.50 extra for cheese on your burger.


Another biting attack that substitutes ridicule for a rational response to my statements.  I thought better of you.  I guess I was mistaken.


----------



## Ekaaj

KOR5Star said:
			
		

> Do you not see certain people getting the best tables at resturants? Ever notice the manager, owner or chef making a visit to a particular table? How do you think the resturant decides who gets this treatment? How would you feel if you frequented a resturant on a weekly or even daily basis and people that haven't spent nearly as much as you got the better tables and VIP treatment while you simply looked on day after day? Would you continue to frequent that resturant? I think not. Welcome to the class system.



By the way, years ago I worked in the hospitality industry; some nice resorts, upscale restaurants, etc., so I know how that system works.  And it's often NOT like you claim.   For example, I worked at the Four Seasons, and _everyone_ got personalized attention - whether they were a one-timer coming to brunch or a studio suite guest in the off season - not just the "big spenders" in the Presidential Suite.  (And to be brutally honest, it was often the case that most of us didn't WANT to deal with the "Presidential Suite Big Spenders" - we did it because we had to, but they were usually pains in the butt to work with, took way too much of your time away from other guests, and often didn't tip well.)  

I worked more than 10 years in the hospitality industry, and tried to give each person a great experience no matter what the situation.  It's called courtesy, and has nothing to do with a class system. 

The only people who are generally concerned about _having _a class system are those who want to be at the top of it.

Getting back to the actual subject, someone mentioned having an "Elite" system based on a one-time payment to get into it, with annual dues.  I wonder if that would work here.  I still think that Starwood should reinstate the original benefits, but if they aren't going to do that, then they might as well offer something else that WILL satisfy their owners, with benefits that not only offer tangible value, (ie food discounts), but are also guaranteed not to disappear. 

I still think that continuing to alienate the owners by taking away benefits is a hugely poor business idea, as it does nothing to create faith in and loyalty to Starwood.  It only makes people wonder, "What will they take away next?"


----------



## jerseygirl

KOR5Star said:


> Another biting attack that substitutes ridicule for a rational response to my statements.  I thought better of you.  I guess I was mistaken.



I apologize for using ridicule to make my point.  But, given the structure of most Starwood resorts (with Harborside being an obvious exception due to the plethora of expensive restaurants and services), it's just not logical to believe they're using the Elite Program to draw owners who will spend big $ at the resort.  

Even at Harborside/Atlantis, I would guess that the really big $ is spent by those with the yachts in the Harbor and those staying in the $10000/night suites in the Royal Towers.  Spending by Harborside guests probably represents a minor blip on their radar screen, if that.

I've been at this timeshare game for quite a few years now.  In fact, the very first purchase I considered was a developer purchase from Starwood when SVN was brand new.  I resisted the urge to sign on the dotted line while at the resort, went home and started researching.  TUG was full of stories of people who bought A and ended up with B.  It continues to this day.  Read the Marriott boards -- you'll find tons of people who have found that the ability to exchange for Marriott points every other year isn't worth much at all.  And, many single week owners who weren't told about the fact that multi-week owners have a considerable advantage when it comes to booking prime weeks.  I could go on and on.  But, I learned really quickly that there were better ways to build a great portfolio of timeshares than buying from the developer.

The bottom line is that you may have been "taken" just a little bit by paying full price for enough developer units to get to 5 Star.  The consolation is that you own some great units/weeks.  But, it really doesn't speak kindly to work toward denying benefits to those who did their research and found a way to buy the same thing for less.  Or, to assume that those people are lower class, spend less money while on vacation, etc.  As my mother would say, "that behavior doesn't become you."  I never really understood the grammatical structure of phrase, but I knew exactly what she meant everytime she said it.  (And, she would say it now if she read my post about the dinner menu, so I will once again apologize.)


----------



## duke

jerseygirl said:


> I think it might be a mistake to assume that people who enjoy paying less than retail can't afford to pay retail.



Actually you can get to 5* ELITE for less than $89,000.  It can be done for around $70,000.  That's a savings of over $100,000 from buying from the Developer.

Does saving a $100,000 make sense?

There is still a few (700) SPG Platinum for Life left.....


----------



## calgarygary

KOR5Star said:


> Sounds like you've got your panties in a knot.  You clearly left the intelligent rebuttal mode and went into personal attack mode.
> 
> Don't be mistaken.  I am human too.  If insults and flames are hurled at me , don't be surprised if my reply is not squeeky clean of comments someone like yourself could get insulted by.  "Panties in a knot" is just another way of  saying "upset" and since it was in response to some rather nasty comments toward me that had nothing to do with the content of what I wrote, I thought it very appropriate.



Did not suggest that you were not human, just pointing out that you were making what I felt were inappropriate remarks.  However it would appear that without my making personal attacks, just indicating that I believe that your logic is flawed, that you have indeed wish to lower the debate.  "Panties in a knot" is not just another way of saying upset but rather a very sexist way of stating your mood.



KOR5Star said:


> I wasn't suggesting the relationship between whales at a casino and timeshare owners was a one-to-one comparison.  I was illustrating the efforts of managment to offer perks to attract high rollers.
> 
> You talk about flawed logic, then you present an unsustainable business plan as your argument?  What happens when the units get sold out? ... the facility goes bankrupt?  I do not discount the value of selling the units as fast as possible, but I think you go way off the reservation when you suggest that services at these resorts are provided at a loss.


As you used the analogy of whales at a casino, I just pointed out how the analogy is not applicable as the supposed high rollers of the timeshare game have already parted with their big dollars and now Starwood is only going after ancilliary cash flow.  Of course the facility does not go bankrupt - last time I checked MF was more than property taxes.  As an individual who has spent many years in food and beverage, I can tell you for a fact that most hotel restaurants and lounges are not profit centres for their companies.  Yes there are exceptions but on average, they are break even at best.


----------



## Ekaaj

jerseygirl said:


> But, it really doesn't speak kindly to work toward denying benefits to those who did their research and found a way to buy the same thing for less.  _*Or, to assume that those people are lower class, spend less money while on vacation, etc. *_ As my mother would say, "that behavior doesn't become you."



I fully agree.  

I also realized, after having written my last post, that people have different ideas about *ahem* "class" depending on where they live or where they grew up.  I am from the Southwest, and things tend to be much more "equal" and laid back here.  I was thinking, before I even remembered that KOR5Star is from New York (or so says the profile), that people in places such as New York (and Hollywood, etc.) have a much different view on class and treatment.  These are places where you DO have to "know" somebody, "be" somebody, or spend exhorbitant amounts of money in order to get into the restaurants or clubs where you can then be treated, and therefore _feel, _as if you really "*are*" somebody.  Right?  

But for the majority of the population, that is neither a desire nor a goal.  Most of us, I would bet, just want to have a fun, relaxing vacation with good service, good food, a nice room to sleep in, (with a view, if possible! ) and the enjoyment of family and friends. I don't need to be on a 5Star Elite list and spend several hundred thousand dollars to enjoy that.

Someone else said that it makes more sense to buy where you want to go, in the season you want, with the view you want, and be happy.  I agree.  I still don't know if DH and I will make a timeshare purchase - sometimes I think we should just buy a little cabin up north where it's cooler in July!  But based on what people have been saying on these forums, if we do buy a timeshare, it will definitely be resale, no matter what company we go with.  I used to think that the benefits offered by buying direct would make it worth it, but not anymore - especially seeing Starwood take those benefits away so easily, and so quickly.  So, thanks to everyone for all the advice.  I'll be following this thread in the future, just to see if SWood changes their mind about any of the benefits...


----------



## Time2Ponder

jerseygirl said:


> ROFL -- Is this where you spend your big bucks on dinner?  They must love the fact that you're willing to spend the $2.50 extra for cheese on your burger.




Actually, we spend over $100/day in pool drinks for two.

Follow the alcohol; it's the source of the resort's profits.


----------



## jerseygirl

Good point, but I would venture a guess that some of the resale buyers spend big bucks on alcohol as well.  Don't tell Starwood, but I don't care what price they charge for a Pina Colada at the pool.  And, I just calculated that I can buy over 2000 of them with the money I saved on my last resale purchase, so the next Tugger round is on me!


----------



## Time2Ponder

jerseygirl said:


> Good point, but I would venture a guess that some of the resale buyers spend big bucks on alcohol as well.



We're resale buyers.


----------



## jerseygirl

Time2Ponder said:


> We're resale buyers.


I knew I liked you!    Sorry, I made an incorrect assumption that your post was in support of the "attracting big spenders" theory.


----------



## Westin5Star

mepiccolo said:


> There's a big elephant in the living room that no one has mentioned here.  If you have the money to spend purchasing several units from the developer - why not just buy the best possible view category and be assured it each time you vacation there instead of buying several units and hoping for an upgrade?  A high percentage of the people here on TUG who purchased one unit through the developer have gone on to make their next purchase on the resale market-without giving a thought about trying to requalify it to get to elite status.  The lure of being an elite member is just not there for everyone, and certainly not for my husband and I.  We've made all our purchases on the resale market, have made sure to buy an oceanfront unit each time and we are completely happy with our purchases and our "status".  For us, we'd rather arrive knowing we have one of the best units in the resort instead of showing up and having the concierge be extra nice to us while they have us wait in a "special" lounge to see if an upgrade is available.



Here is the big elephant in my living room:

This for me has nothing to do with location or view or season.  I have bought OFD in WKORV and Platinum in WLR, WKV, and HRA.  The reason that the upgrade benefit is appealing to me isn't to improve when I can travel to the resort or in what view I can have.  We have two small children and thus the appeal is in booking a studio or small 1BR and getting upgraded to a large 1BR.  We were hoping to turn our five 2BR LOs / year into upto 10 full weeks in larger 1BRs (when inventory allowed for this).

In most cases, yes I could have looked at buying all larger 1BR weeks and not 2BR LOs.  Unfortunately we really wanted to buy in OFD at WKORV and in WPORV and they were only selling 2BR LOs and not just the larger 1BRs.  Unless Starwood changes its mind on this policy, we will most likely just trade for SO for these units when we do not take family or friends with us.  I doubt that I will ever rent out my smaller units and converting to SP (which is a terrible value), trading II, or letting it go all seem like a waste.


----------



## Westin5Star

Time2Ponder said:


> Actually, we spend over $100/day in pool drinks for two.
> 
> Follow the alcohol; it's the source of the resort's profits.



I am a resale / developer (to requal) buyer and I spend about $100 per day on drinks for myself between the pool, lunch, and dinner.  This is probably why my posts never make any sense.

My wife and kids usually drink about another $100 combined in drinks and smoothies.  

We usually leave the week at the resort with $3k-4k or so on the tab for meals, drinks, spa treatments, excursions, etc.  Although I agree that they Starwood makes alot of money upfront when they sell units, I know that they are making plenty of profit during my visits.  

I don't really concern myself with the money that I spend while on vacation.  I do, however, like the idea of considering my resort purchases vs. what I saved in buying resale.  It is a great way to make me feel good about all this!


----------



## mepiccolo

jerseygirl said:


> I'll risk getting flamed as well ....
> This thread reminds me of a story ...
> 
> A hungry fox noticed a juicy bunch of grapes growing high on a grapevine. He leaped. He snapped. Drooling, he jumped to reach them, but try as he might, he could not obtain the tasty prize.
> 
> Disappointed by the fruitless efforts he'd made to get the grapes that day, he said, with a shrug, to comfort himself, "Oh, they were probably sour anyway!"



Actually this thread reminds us of another story:

One about a certain emperor who spent the kingdom's fortune on a "special" wardrobe that only the wise and privileged could see...


----------



## mepiccolo

Correct me if I'm wrong since I'm not an elite, but don't the elites only pay maintenance fees for the first three intervals owned?  If that is true with that math Starwood loses significant revenue compared to if each of those additional units were sold to separate people.  

My guess would be that after the sales of units alcohol is the big revenue generator for the resort and, as a resale buyer, I'd be willing to bet that my husband has purchased more $5.00 beers at the resort than most of the elite members.  Unless of course one can make the argument that elite members tend to be drunks and perhaps that explains their decision to buy and buy and buy at a premium from the developer.

Jersey girl, we like the way you think and we'll take you up on the free drink!


----------



## Pedro

mepiccolo said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong since I'm not an elite, but don't the elites only pay maintenance fees for the first three intervals owned? If that is true with that math Starwood loses significant revenue compared to if each of those additional units were sold to separate people.


Elite members pay MF the same as anybody else.  It is the SVN membership fee that gets waived for the third interval and above.


----------



## mepiccolo

Westin5Star said:


> Here is the big elephant in my living room:
> 
> This for me has nothing to do with location or view or season.  I have bought OFD in WKORV and Platinum in WLR, WKV, and HRA.  The reason that the upgrade benefit is appealing to me isn't to improve when I can travel to the resort or in what view I can have.  We have two small children and thus the appeal is in booking a studio or small 1BR and getting upgraded to a large 1BR.  We were hoping to turn our five 2BR LOs / year into upto 10 full weeks in larger 1BRs (when inventory allowed for this).
> 
> In most cases, yes I could have looked at buying all larger 1BR weeks and not 2BR LOs.  Unfortunately we really wanted to buy in OFD at WKORV and in WPORV and they were only selling 2BR LOs and not just the larger 1BRs.  Unless Starwood changes its mind on this policy, we will most likely just trade for SO for these units when we do not take family or friends with us.  I doubt that I will ever rent out my smaller units and converting to SP (which is a terrible value), trading II, or letting it go all seem like a waste.



It still points out the fact that unfortunately you didn't purchase what you really wanted.  We also have two little ones so we knew it would be several years before it would be safe to have our children in the separate lock-off unit.  With that in mind we have planned to take friends and relatives with us for the next several years and in the future the lock-off will be great for our family's needs.  It once again makes me glad we never sat in a 3-4 hour brain washing timeshare presentation before we made any of our purchases.  We researched it and were clear on what we were getting and are guaranteed to get each time we vacation when we made our resale purchases.


----------



## Ekaaj

**Gets in line for JerseyGirl's drink tab**     We'll be at the Westin Kierland in August if you wanna stop by...   Will buy you an authentic Arizona margarita in return.:whoopie:  Try the Prickly Pear...yum!


----------



## Fredm

*Way too interesting*

At the risk of joining the flamed, this is way too interesting to not comment on. My perspective is not of an elite owner. I just sell the stuff. In this respect it is far easier to simply butt-out. But, it does provide a perspective a bit different than what is being voiced. I have no ax to grind, nor am I defending/justifying any particular point of view.

Starwood indeed has the right to change the program as they wish, at any time. All who lose sight of that, do so at their peril. It says so in plain English.
As a reseller, my personal interest is in supporting the requal program. No doubt about it. But, the moment that Starwood relaxed its qualification and eligibility criteria by allowing requals, and eoy's to qualify annuals, etc. red flags should have been flying high. Anyone who thinks that an "elite" program can remain "elite" when qualification is played fast and loose is crazy. At the very moment that caution should have been exercised, is when it was blown to the wind. Those early "true" elite members  made their purchases based on their belief that the status would be protected. At the very least, they assumed qualification would be the same, if benefits would not. Even if they were not entirely correct in their assumption, it was a reasonable one.
I have a perspective on this. I have a client who listed their Marriott timeshares with me. Their objective in liquidating, was to attain TRIPLE 5* Elite. One for themselves, and one for each of two children. TRIPLE! They did. They spent over $300,000! I am grateful to have the loyalty of several such clients. When they found out that they could have purchased Mission Hills resale,  and re-qualified with  some Maui direct purchases, they were speechless.  Literally speechless. They were in my office, looked at me, and their faces turned red. I mean, they could have saved 100k! But, more importantly, they realized that what they attained was being manipulated. They felt manipulated. Not good for Starwood's image and credibility. Stawood is playing badly advised games, in my opinion. No matter how much money one has, $100,000 is not chump change. Especially when it represents a sense of being taken advantage of.

On a lesser scale, this holds true for every elite owner who purchased under the original guidelines. The moment that others qualified on terms other than they did, was the time to shout the roof off. Those are the owners who have a beef , if anyone does.  Although the program would still be subject to change, it could be credibly argued, that the changes just announced would not have otherwise been necessary if the floodgates were not opened to benefit  a short term sales quota objective. Those that do not believe this motivated the loosening, well, we do have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.  
Those that bought for their own reasons, attained elite because of it, and did so with eyes wide open, are not the ones vocal here best I can tell. Others did so with eyes wide shut, congratulating themselves for gaming it, under the then applicable rules. Where did common sense go? Perhaps they really thought that the relaxed elite qualifications were made especially for them, THEN would remain unchanged.  Reminds me of the last to buy in a residential development. Once there, they want to raise the drawbridge so others will not enter and spoil what they have attained. Somehow, they view themselves as special. Once the next subdivision is approved, they are the first to City Hall to cry about the ruination of their quality of life. They never stopped to think that what they purchased is subject to change. Or, more humbly, what if the person just before them raised the bridge so they couldn't get in? Instead of saying, as did WC Fields, any club that would have me as a member is not worth joining, they could not get the money together fast enough. Nothing wrong with gaming the rules.The rules were obviously set-up to be gamed. Just do not lose sight of who is gaming whom.  
 Meanwhile, my triple five * family has not uttered another word about it. They will simply proceed with life, placing Starwood in an appropriate category  when occasion arises to speak of them. There is no pretense, or righteous indignation. As an interesting aside, I heard the husband say to his wife, in passing, Marriott would never do such a thing to its Black (highest level) cards. They are right about that. Marriott treats its special relationship customers like gold, and trip over themselves to show it. They are also careful to not promise too much.
On this point, back in 1994 I was employed by Marriott. They released a package of "gold" benefits to all timeshare buyers, packaged in a beautiful black and gold casing. Within 4 or 5 months the entire program was dismantled at the direct order of Bill Marriott Jr., whose approval was not initially required to implement it. He believed that it would set unrealistic expectations. Further, it was his view that if the product was not salable without it, there was a larger problem involved that needed fixing.
I never forgot that. That was the real beginning of Marriott's VO growth. Desert Springs Villas I was just sold-out. Villas II had not yet begun construction. The only resorts in the Marriott system were in Hilton Head, Orlando (and Longboat Keys), and Vail. Marriott had not built any of them, although Park City Utah and Cypress Harbor in Orlando were under construction. That was only 13 years ago.
I am not posting to champion the Marriott system. I left their employ when I was personally unable to justify charging up to 50% more than it could be bought for elsewhere. I decided to be among the elsewhere. I merely wish to make a point by comparison. Say what you will about Marriott's 13 month reservation rules. I am not defending it either. However, it's origins were motivated by 2 principles; allowing the multi-share owner to book consecutive or concurrent weeks with the least hassle, and encouraging owners to buy additional weeks for this purpose. Regardless of your view of this reservation policy: right, wrong, or indifferent, Marriott has steadfastly adhered to it for more years than Starwood has been in the VO business.  Owners have come to rely on its implementation, and thus far have not been whip-sawed. Its implementation is what it has always been. This is true of both direct and secondary market purchases, without distinction, period. I do not wish to launch yet another leg of this discussion by that statement. It is not one that can be argued with, and only serves to lose sight of my meaning. 
Those who pursued elite status at the time the qualification rules were relaxed, allowed themselves to believe that the change which helped them, was the only change they could expect.  Really now, try to be objective about  it. Ask yourself,  If you did not act on it then, and the issue was posed academically, would your response be the same? I think not. No one likes to be gamed. To think that the one who writes the rules is being gamed, is not one to be argued with in any case.


----------



## jerseygirl

Great post Fred.  

Just a couple of observations:


Starwood allowed reqauls WAY before the Elite Program was announced, and used to permit buyers to bring in as many resale units as they owned (with the purchase of a silver EOY, no less.)  In fact, they directly hit their resale buyers up with that proposition.  Eventually, they started permitting only one for one, but actively promoted the EOY option (buy your first at 60% to get the first resale in, and your second at 40% to get the second one in).  
When the Elite Program was first announced, they forgot to exclude those owners who had purchased all necessary units to qualify via the resale market.  Eventually, the legal people got around to excluding them in the promotional material and official rules, and an effort was made to remove the elite status from these buyers.  I personally know two who used the initial documentation to successfully retain their status -- I'm sure there are lots more.
With regard to Marriott -- I think you're absolutely correct except for one point.  TUG is full of single-week owners who were not told about the reservation advantage for multiple-week owners when they initially purchased.  Perhaps they didn't ask the right questions, but I think there's a reason the term "lie by omission" was created.  If I remember my early Catholic school education, this could arguably be classified as a venial sin vs. Starwood's "voluntary resort" practices, but it's wrong in my book nonetheless.  
Back to Starwood -- I think your clients are 100% spot on with regard to Starwood's treatment of its clients.  I got that feeling from the very start -- has anyone ever read the initial letter you receive (a welcome letter, I guess!!) when you buy a voluntary resort in the resale market?  It's hilarious, and I am certain that anyone who wrote a letter like that in my company would be escorted to the door immediately!  I realized that if Starwood was so willing to completely screw their owners who might need or want to sell someday with the whole "voluntary resort" program, that they would eventually get around to screwing everyone else too.  (Had the same feeling when RCI Points was created with obvious advantages over RCI weeks -- knew it was only a matter of time until RCI got around to screwing the Points owners too!).  And, that's why I've never requalified any of my Starwood units.  Some might argue that I can't afford to p), but actually it's always boiled down to refusing to line the pockets of a company who very obviously had no interest in protecting my "investment."
I own Hyatt and HGVC units in addition to Starwood.  Hyatt won't let me exchange my unit for Hyatt points and Hilton won't give me Elite status no matter how many points I buy in the resale market.  But, with those two exceptions, all owners are treated exactly the same, and that's why I'm in the process of reducing my Starwood ownership and adding to my Hyatt ownership (plus, the resorts are nicer too ).  I'm going to spend my vacation dollars (you know, add cheese to my burger and buy pina coladas at the pool!) with companies I respect and companies that appreciate my business even after the initial sale is made.

(Okay, I'm not selling my Harborside.  I guess my principles are only so strong.)


----------



## Fredm

jereseygirl

As mentioned, I am not defending or advocating Marriott's policy re: 13 month reservations. I understand the issues.
 Venial sins get you to purgatory, but, my Sisters of Charity were never quite clear about how long?
 My comments had more to do with consistency of policy.
Regarding your principles being only so strong, and Harborside; I believe that is only a veniel sin. Not everyone can be God, and have their principles and actions  be exactly alike. Self-serving, without harming others, is more than most can boast.


----------



## calgarygary

Fredm said:


> jereseygirl
> 
> As mentioned, I am not defending or advocating Marriott's policy re: 13 month reservations. I understand the issues.
> Venial sins get you to purgatory, but, my Sisters of Charity were never quite clear about how long?
> My comments had more to do with consistency of policy.
> Regarding your principles being only so strong, and Harborside; I believe that is only a veniel sin. Not everyone can be God, and have their principles and actions  be exactly alike. Self-serving, without harming others, is more than most can boast.



Following up a very informative post with this post deserves two


----------



## jerseygirl

calgarygary said:


> Following up a very informative post with this post deserves two



Nah ... three!


----------



## Kazakie

mariawolf said:


> Other interesting info she provided is that 24% of owners convert yearly.



24% of what owners?  Can't be all owners as not all resorts are mandatory, and some of the Sheratons (Myrtle Beach, Orlando, etc) were purchased and those owner's can't convert.  Would it be that 24% of 5* owners convert ONE of their numerous weeks? (that would get you down to a much more reasonable ~5% conversation rate).


----------



## Kazakie

duke said:


> I do NOT like the idea of upgrade at checkin.  And, I do not think it is possible.  SVO allocates rooms from their central office.  They do not have the systems to do it at check-in.
> 
> Moreover, If I have an IV or Studio .....  I would like to know * in advance * what I am going to get.
> 
> I like the current policy and want to keep it.


The idea of upgrading ahead of time seems rather ridiculous from a business point of view.  Would you prefer upgrades at checkin or no upgrades at all?


----------



## nodge

I agree that Starwood, like all other timeshare companies, would sellout its customers to protect its own interests.  I think the shock, at least for me, is the speed with which Starwood did it and the relatively minor benefit SVN obtained (reduced administrative costs in dealing with elite’s phone requests) in exchange for what it has cost them (severely compromising SVN’s good will among its best customers.)

SVN has sent me the following two messages with its latest antics:

1)  Screw-you current customer, we’ve already got your money, and were doing so well selling units to fresh, know-nothing, meat off the street, we no longer need to keep our promises we made to you when you purchased from us last year (or yesterday in the case of at least one tugger here).  Moreover, our marketing machine is so vast and complete, we don’t even need your word of mouth recommendations.  In fact, feel free to post your discontent on a publically available web site.  Our fresh meat customers NEVER check there anyway; and,

2)  You know everything that we’ve ever told you about our product – StarOptions, StarPoints, “Platinum For Life,” etc.?  Well if we can outright cancel the best (non-5 star) elite benefit at the drop of a hat, just think how quickly we can AND WILL, and way, way sooner than you can possibly imagine, change all of THOSE benefits too.

In light of SVN’s bold new direction, the only question that I really have is why does it still have a “Vice President of Owner Services” or even an “Owner Services” department at all?  I guess they still need someone to send out all of those luggage tags.

-nodge


----------



## LisaRex

I am a resale buyer at WKORV-N.  Thanks to the fine folks here who took their valuable time to share their knowledge and experiences, to the very nice salesman from Marriott who spent over an hour explaining the ins and outs of their system and helping me compare it honestly to Starwood's, and to some very helpful real estate agents, I bought a unit that I have no regrets about buying.  I bought the view that I wanted (OF) at the property I wanted (WKORV-N) and I am looking forward to many years of relaxing vacations at a great location.  

I completely understand the bitterness that elite owners are feeling towards Starwood.  You paid thousands,in some case tens of thousands of dollars, in premiums for a benefit that has been taken away under the guise of a congratulatory letter.  That is completely outrageous and very poor form, Starwood.

What I don't understand is the hostility displayed towards resale _owners_.  Whether you are a retail or a resale buyer, we are all essentially subjects of King Starwood.  And if the King continues to renege on promises, it is a bad deal for ALL owners.  From the scrapping of the lazy river at WKORV-N to the dissolution of elite upgrades, it is dishonest to market something, and take people's money based on that, if you do not deliver it.

Starwood management had to know months ago that the elite upgrade program was not working.  They could have frozen that benefit at any time in order to protect it for existing 5* owners.  Yet, not only did they not grandfather the benefit for existing 5* owners, but they continued to market this benefit up until the day that the program change was announced!  We have one poster who just recently became a 5* elite.  I can't imagine the anger and frustration he/she is feeling. 

I don't care if you paid $69k or $18k for your unit or if you're a retail or resale owner.  You should get what Starwood promised.  And we should all unite together to hold Starwood management accountable for the program they marketed, whether we will personally benefit or not.  The integrity of the program should matter to all of us.


----------



## jerseygirl

I couldn't agree more LisaRex.  Fred said it best when he talked about Marriott's consistency and the ability to sell their product without a bunch of ever-changing gimmicks (... if the product was not salable without it, there was a larger problem involved that needed fixing...).  

Starwood changes the rules of the game whenever it suits THEM -- the interests of their owners couldn't be more subordinated.  As long as you understand that, buy where you want to go and you'll be happy.  It would be very foolish to base your happiness on anything other than the week(s) and unit(s) you own ... no matter how much money you've spent.


----------



## tomandrobin

This thread has been very interesting, very informative and very deverse in opions. Most of these new changes do not effect me since I am a single unit Starwood owner. Eliteless you could say. Moving up the Elite status chain has been a goal of ours, but may not be as important now for us to achieve. So far as an owner we have been pleased with our Westin Kierland purchase. 

There were three big reasons for us buying our Kierland unit. First, we loved the resort. Two, we love Starwood properties and like the ability to exchange into other Starwood properties. And third, the Staroption program that enables us to do number two. 

If the Staroption program went away, that would pretty much end our ownership or future ownership with Starwood. We almost bought into Marriott for or first unit, but felt the Starwood system was better for our use. I like the direction Starwood has been going with thte new resorts they are planning/developing. Looking forward to both Cancun and Aruba once they are complete. 

If I was a 5* Elite owner I would be upset and I do sympathize with them on thier "possible" lost. (Since only 10% got the upgrade, 90% didn't lose anything). On the upside, as a 5* owner most of you still own some pretty nice weeks in some really nice resorts. 

And Fredm....What a great post on your part...Thank You for putting an excellent perspective from the other side of the fence.


----------



## Henry M.

LisaRex said:


> What I don't understand is the hostility displayed towards resale _owners_.



I don't think there's any hostility towards resale owners.  The problem is with the requal program itself. I think resale owners are smart to save some money and take advantage of something clearly allowed by SVO practices. The discussion is whether these practices should be allowed or not, not about those who take advantage of them.

Any Elite program relies on being limited in the number of participants. For example, the problem with the upgrade perk is that there are too many people eligible to take advantage of it. Requals make it easier for more and more people to participate and thus dilute the benefit.  The expectations set are also such that this program becomes a dissatisfier when people don't get the upgrade instead of being a benefit.

I don't know how real the problem is since I have no idea of how many people are using requals to reach Elite levels vs. how many reach them buying from the developer. I could well be a non-issue or it could be a huge problem. In any case, even through regular sales, the more people join in, the less that can be reasonably offered. The benefits need to be carefully planned up front, assuming a certain growth rate and a certain number of eligible members. It appears something went wrong with Starwood's setup for the plan and now they're struggling to figure out what to do. It certainly is not the fault of resale buyers getting requals. It all lies squarely at the feet of Starwood for their poor planning and/or execution. Any dissatisfaction is a result of them having set expectations too high.

I don't know how real the upgrade dissatisfaction issue is for most owners. I never expected that I HAD to get an upgrade but felt happy when I did. I assume most people would feel like that, but I've also witnessed many abusive owners at WKORV demanding upgrades. I would rather have a 10% chance of being upgraded than having none at all.


----------



## LisaRex

emuyshondt said:


> I don't think there's any hostility towards resale owners.



One poster compared resale owners to party crashers who weren't invited to the party.  I'd say that's an inappropriately hostile attitude.


----------



## Ekaaj

LisaRex said:


> One poster compared resale owners to party crashers who weren't invited to the party.  I'd say that's an inappropriately hostile attitude.



Don't forget the "lower class" comparison.  That one was my favorite.



			
				KOR5Star said:
			
		

> I'm opening myself up to flames here because I'm going to get into class distinctions that I'm sure will ruffle some feathers.



Ah, there's at least one on every message board.  Oh well, I have found these boards to be greatly informative, if not a little rude at times.

Back to subject - I'm just curious, how many of the owners on this board would actually be willing to pay for a more concrete "Elite" program, with benefits in writing?  If it was elective, would you shell out $ every year to be part of it?


----------



## tomandrobin

emuyshondt said:


> The problem is with the requal program itself. I think resale owners are smart to save some money and take advantage of something clearly allowed by SVO practices. The discussion is whether these practices should be allowed or not, not about those who take advantage of them.



I agree, the requal program is the biggest flaw with the elite program. If it had been left untouched, there would definately be less of an issue here. Then the only members affected by the change are the owners who bought all developer weeks. 



emuyshondt said:


> Any Elite program relies on being limited in the number of participants. For example, the problem with the upgrade perk is that there are too many people eligible to take advantage of it. Requals make it easier for more and more people to participate and thus dilute the benefit.  The expectations set are also such that this program becomes a dissatisfier when people don't get the upgrade instead of being a benefit.



If the number of 5* elites are/were fixed then the opposite would happen. If there are 2000 5* Elite members and Starwood keeps adding resorts/rooms the odds/percentage of getting an upgrade should increase. If the number of resorts and rooms were static then I can see how it availability to upgrrade would decrease as more members became 5* Elite status.


----------



## Loriannf

*An "Elective" Benefits program*

My decision would be based solely on the benefits.  I'm currently a lowly 3 star elite and wasn't really receiving an benefits from the prior program.  We own 3 bedroom weeks at WSJ - what are they going to upgrade us to?  The units don't lock out, so there's no option to split and use half.  We've had no success trading for anything outside WSJ, so no benefits at check-in have ever been an issue.

What would I pay for?  How about getting on a  wait list WITHOUT giving up my home resort reservation - now available to 4 and 5 star, but I'd pay for that in a heartbeat, especially if the long-term cost is less than another unit.  Being able to make a reservation at 8 1/2 or 9 months instead of 8 - yes again, I'd pay for that.  Also, early check-in and late check-out, WSJ airport transfers without charge, and the ability to use "bonus" weeks (i.e, rent at a reduced cost inventory unlikely to sell out).  What I wouldn't pay for are luggage tags, SPG gold status (so easy to get, so worthless), or anything else which should be given free of charge to Elite members anyway.

Just my two cents.

Lori


----------



## tomandrobin

The only benefit we have seen from our "gold" staus has been the seperate check-in line at the Swan & dolphin Hotel in Disney during Christmas week.


----------



## Henry M.

LisaRex said:


> One poster compared resale owners to party crashers who weren't invited to the party.  I'd say that's an inappropriately hostile attitude.



I was actually the one that wrote that, and in retrospect it didn't quite properly convey what I was trying to say. I've previously said in other threads that I would tell people to alternate resales and developer purchases to get the most benefit out of the system. Perhaps the analogy should have included one of the owners of the venue inviting others in that were not part of the original guest list of the party. Sorry if I came across as hostile - I am certainly not hostile towards resale/requal owners.

The point was supposed to be that the program is set up for a certain number of people and making it easier to get in diminishes the benefits that can be given to the those that have really invested in the system. There are apparently over 14,000 Elites, maybe 1,300 5*, and no limit on any of the numbers. The 2000 5* limit mentioed is for SPG Platinum membership, not the number of 5*.

As long as the percentage of Elite owners with respect to the number of weeks available remains steady, then everything should be OK. If suddenly there is a way for everyone to get to Elite levels through very cheap requals, the the whole program is diminished for everybody. I do agree that the Mandatory/Voluntary situation is not good. I think the ability to exchange within the system is for everybody's benefit and that there should be some way for voluntary property owners to be able to get back into SVN for exchange purposes.


----------



## KOR5Star

Ekaaj said:


> Don't forget the "lower class" comparison.  That one was my favorite.
> 
> *Quote:
> Originally Posted by KOR5Star
> I'm opening myself up to flames here because I'm going to get into class distinctions that I'm sure will ruffle some feathers.*
> 
> Ah, there's at least one on every message board.  Oh well, I have found these boards to be greatly informative, if not a little rude at times.
> 
> Back to subject - I'm just curious, how many of the owners on this board would actually be willing to pay for a more concrete "Elite" program, with benefits in writing?  If it was elective, would you shell out $ every year to be part of it?


Holy smokes!  I guess if someone says something you don't agree with, they become that "one on every message board" you speak of.  I'm surprised you find only "one".

You talk of rude?  You may not agree with my premise, but that does not give you license to take my words out of context and damn me with them.  That's the only rude thing going on here.

In that SAME EXACT post, I wrote the following:
*"Now please! Don't read what I just wrote and think that I believe the wealthier person is a better person. That's not what I'm saying at all. All I'm saying is the wealthier person tends to spend more money on vacation... therefore generating more income for Starwood... therefore enticing Starwood to "sweeten the pot" and try to attract that type of clientele with an "elite" program."*

But you chose to completely ignore those words.  Why?  I can't imagine that you didn't read them as well.  What makes it difficult for you to contemplate an opposing point of view without getting rude and resorting to character assassination? 

My use of the phrase "class distinctions" was clearly not meant in the way you imply.  It was meant to designate between groups of people with significantly different spending habits, not to imply one group was "better" than the other.  That's YOUR assumption.  Several of you on this thread have equated having money with the quality of the person.  I think that shows a profound ignorance of the nature of people. 

I knew I'd get flames.  Some people on the site have shown there is no room for dissenting opinions... and they will not be tolerated.  

For the record, I am not against anyone that has taken advantage of the requal loophole.  I AM against the loophole itself for the reasons I've already stated.  If you've misinterpreted those statements as being somehow insulting to you, sorry, but that's due to your own mind's workings, not mine.

In reality, all I did was present an opinion which was cleary counter to your own.  Being different from your opinion didn't make it insulting, condescending or arrogant.  It was just different.

In answer to your question.  Yes, I would pay for Elite.  If you read my other posts, I suggested a country club model.  There would be a substantial buy-in (say $50K+) plus an annual fee and mandatory spending minimums.  In return, there should be extra perks like first access to desirable tee times, etc... 

Members would be able to recoup some or all of their initial investment (whatever the market would bear) when they sell their membership to the next qualified (by Starwood) person on the list.  The number of memberships would need to be a set fraction of the number of Starwood units or membership could be limited by the size of the buy-in.


----------



## KOR5Star

Ekaaj said:


> By the way, years ago I worked in the hospitality industry; some nice resorts, upscale restaurants, etc., so I know how that system works.  And it's often NOT like you claim.   For example, I worked at the Four Seasons, and _everyone_ got personalized attention - whether they were a one-timer coming to brunch or a studio suite guest in the off season - not just the "big spenders" in the Presidential Suite.  (And to be brutally honest, it was often the case that most of us didn't WANT to deal with the "Presidential Suite Big Spenders" - we did it because we had to, but they were usually pains in the butt to work with, took way too much of your time away from other guests, and often didn't tip well.)


And I would like to point out that the above statement is condemning an entire "class" of customer.  It is clear that you, sir, are the one with a malicious bias, not I.

I was simply categorizing people by their spending habits.  You condemn them by how much money they have.

...and you speak of others being "rude"?

To set the record straight, there are rude people and cheap tippers in all financial categories.


----------



## Ekaaj

First, it should hardly surprise you to be accused of being rude - I am not the first person on this board to assert that your words are less than kind.  A look at your previous posts is quite enlightening.

Second, I am a lady, not a sir.

Thirdly, the reason we did not like waiting on certain "Presidential Big Spenders" was not at all because of how much money they had, but rather that they were often very rude and demanding, and took away some of our ability to properly serve other guests.  This was in direct response to your assertion that those who _are _spending more money should, therefore, get better treatment and service than those who spend less.

And finally, I see no more need to argue with someone who will never understand that what they accuse others of is, in fact, what they are doing themselves.


----------



## LisaRex

A strong case can be made that allowing requalifications to gain elite status is profoundly unfair without bringing socioeconomic circumstances into the equation. The simple fact of the matter is that some owners paid a huge premium for the same benefits that others who paid significantly less are (in theory) allowed to enjoy.  That is unfair whether you have $14,000 or $140 in monthly disposable income. 

If I'd have become an elite member via the developer only to find out that I could have attained the same status via buying resale at half the price, instead of feeling like a first class guest of Starwood, I'd feel like a first class sucker.  And when I received the insulting "Let's reward you for being our most valued member by removing your best benefit" letter, I'd be a royally pissed first class sucker. 

At the end of the day, I believe that ALL "elite" members have been victims of a smartly executed marketing scheme.  No matter how you got there, you paid significant amounts of money for benefits that have been removed with no notice, no apology, and no attempt at restitution.  And that is not the how a first class operation treats its customers.


----------



## Ekaaj

LisaRex said:


> And that is not the how a first class operation treats its customers.



I agree wholeheartedly.  The interesting thing is, I have been dealing with the Starwood hotels dept. during the last few days, making plans for some upcoming trips, and have received outstanding service.  That's one of the things we like about the Starwood hotels brand - they really seem committed to their guests' satisfaction.  I wonder why it does not seem to be translating to their owners....


----------



## KOR5Star

jerseygirl said:


> I apologize for using ridicule to make my point.  But, given the structure of most Starwood resorts (with Harborside being an obvious exception due to the plethora of expensive restaurants and services), it's just not logical to believe they're using the Elite Program to draw owners who will spend big $ at the resort.
> 
> Even at Harborside/Atlantis, I would guess that the really big $ is spent by those with the yachts in the Harbor and those staying in the $10000/night suites in the Royal Towers.  Spending by Harborside guests probably represents a minor blip on their radar screen, if that.
> 
> I've been at this timeshare game for quite a few years now.  In fact, the very first purchase I considered was a developer purchase from Starwood when SVN was brand new.  I resisted the urge to sign on the dotted line while at the resort, went home and started researching.  TUG was full of stories of people who bought A and ended up with B.  It continues to this day.  Read the Marriott boards -- you'll find tons of people who have found that the ability to exchange for Marriott points every other year isn't worth much at all.  And, many single week owners who weren't told about the fact that multi-week owners have a considerable advantage when it comes to booking prime weeks.  I could go on and on.  But, I learned really quickly that there were better ways to build a great portfolio of timeshares than buying from the developer.
> 
> The bottom line is that you may have been "taken" just a little bit by paying full price for enough developer units to get to 5 Star.  The consolation is that you own some great units/weeks.  But, it really doesn't speak kindly to work toward denying benefits to those who did their research and found a way to buy the same thing for less.  Or, to assume that those people are lower class, spend less money while on vacation, etc.  As my mother would say, "that behavior doesn't become you."  I never really understood the grammatical structure of phrase, but I knew exactly what she meant everytime she said it.  (And, she would say it now if she read my post about the dinner menu, so I will once again apologize.)


Another rational, measured response that I've come to enjoy and expect from you.

I'd like to make it clear that I never referred to anyone as high class or low class.  As you can read from my recent posts, I used the phrase "class distinctions" to differentiate between people of differing wealth and spending habits.  

I must admit, I predicted the term "class" might be misinterpreted.  That's why I spoke of the potential flaming and tried to carefully qualify what I was saying with the paragraph that started "Please..." in that same post.  Alas, those efforts were in vein.  I'm not sure many got past the word "class" and still tried to understand what I was saying.  I'm not sure what other word or phrase I should have used.  "Class" was the proper one.  ...but I probably should have tried harder.

I don't feel "taken".  I feel betrayed by Starwood.  I bought into something that I thought had a particular threshold and therefore exclusivity, only to find it had no such thing.

Our disagreement is about whether requal bargain seekers spend less as a group.  I'm absolutely sure there are many that have the money, but enjoy the challenge of it all.  My premise is those type of people don't change their spots.  Finding bargains is what they do... all the time.  And if IIRC, some people have stated they would only be able to afford 5* by doing the requal thing.  

So we have two types of requal 5 Stars.... one's with plenty of money that enjoy the challenge of getting the best bargains they can find and those that could not have been 5 Star otherwise.  The assumption that these requal 5 Stars would have the same spending patterns and offer Starwood similar revenue streams as the ones who impetuously bought in at full price is, IMHO, false.


----------



## KOR5Star

Ekaaj said:


> And finally, I see no more need to argue with someone who will never understand that what they accuse others of is, in fact, what they are doing themselves.


At last, we agree!


----------



## KOR5Star

LisaRex said:


> A strong case can be made that allowing requalifications to gain elite status is profoundly unfair without bringing socioeconomic circumstances into the equation. The simple fact of the matter is that some owners paid a huge premium for the same benefits that others who paid significantly less are (in theory) allowed to enjoy.  That is unfair whether you have $14,000 or $140 in monthly disposable income.
> 
> If I'd have become an elite member via the developer only to find out that I could have attained the same status via buying resale at half the price, instead of feeling like a first class guest of Starwood, I'd feel like a first class sucker.  And when I received the insulting "Let's reward you for being our most valued member by removing your best benefit" letter, I'd be a royally pissed first class sucker.
> 
> At the end of the day, I believe that ALL "elite" members have been victims of a smartly executed marketing scheme.  No matter how you got there, you paid significant amounts of money for benefits that have been removed with no notice, no apology, and no attempt at restitution.  And that is not the how a first class operation treats its customers.


Well put.

I'd add that this makes a "sucker" out of no one.  If I promise you something and that promise is reasonable to believe due to my reputation and your experience in the market (such as staying in my hotels), then you find out I've betrayed you, I am the one tarnished as a liar and a cheat.  YOU are not a "sucker".

It's a subtle difference, but feeling like a sucker or a fool implies there is anger at oneself for being naive.  My anger is clearly with Starwood.  I entered into an agreement with what I thought was a trusted partner.  

It's like saying a wife is a fool or a sucker because her husband cheated on her.  The only fool is the betrayer.


----------



## LisaRex

KOR5Star said:
			
		

> The assumption that these requal 5 Stars would have the same spending patterns and offer Starwood similar revenue streams as the ones who impetuously bought in at full price is, IMHO, false.



I don't think a person can reasonably draw any conclusions on the spending patterns of 5* Requal Owners vs. 5* Retail Owners based on anectodal evidence.  Starwood might track this data but I doubt they'll share.


----------



## Westin5Star

*Response Via MyStarCentral*

Thank you for contacting Westin Vacation Ownership. 

We thank you for taking the time to express your concern today. Our goal is to enhance the Elite program benefits and consistently deliver on each of the benefits. Through an Elite owner survey conducted in 2006 to obtain voice of the customer, members responses indicated that the Villa Upgrade benefit was more of a dis-satisfier than a satisfier due to lack of fulfillment. In addition, after thorough internal evaluation of actual fulfillment we confirmed that owner occupancy has increased thus drastically limiting our ability to extend the Villa Upgrade benefit. We have therefore chosen to replace this benefit with benefits that are more likely to be fulfilled. We anticipate that owner occupancy will continue to increase as we will continue to expand our resort locations in the most sought out destinations. In order to maintain consistency in the Elite program, we will not be extending this benefit at any specific occupancy rate. 

Our goal is to continue to survey Elite members, review our internal fulfillment of benefits and continue to research ways to enhance the program. We will conduct at minimum, a yearly review of the programs benefits and services in an effort to keep the program fresh and exciting for our owners. 

We would like to take this opportunity to announce a new and exciting personalized feature just for you! Starwood Vacation Network Elite Member Travel Services was designed to assist with all of your additional travel needs, whether its a family gathering, a romantic getaway or a dream vacation. They offer customized travel planning, including air and car reservations. You may contact the Starwood Vacation Network Elite Member Travel Services toll free at 888-229-4258 or direct at 941-536-0321. 

We hope this information was helpful. Westin Vacation Ownership looks forward to assisting you in the near future. Should you need further assistance, please contact Owner Services at 800.847.8262 in the U.S., Canada and Puerto Rico, 0.800.89.5065 in the United Kingdom, 001.800.847.8262 from Mexico and 407.903.4640 for all other areas. Owner Services is available Monday through Friday, 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. and Saturday through Sunday, 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. Eastern time. 

Kevin Johnston 
E-Communications Specialist 
SVO Management Inc. 
Fax: 407-903-4641 
Website: www.mystarcentral.com


----------



## Ekaaj

KOR5Star said:


> At last, we agree!



Thank you for admitting it.  That was gracious of you.


----------



## Fredm

*The Up Side*

This has been a very long run on the negative changes to the Elite program, and several side bars along the way about who's who in the Starwood circus.  
Believe it or not, there was some very good news in the restructured benefit plan, if I understand it correctly. Again, just a perspective. I do not intend to imply it is a net benefit overall. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, for sure. Nonetheless, the window for StarPoints election was significantly expanded. You may not think it a big deal if you would not elect StarPoints as an alternative use with premeditation. Prior to this change, you almost had to. No longer. Those Elites faced with an 11th hour cancellation of travel plans can now at least take StarPoints as a back-up source of value at almost any time. (certainly for 5 *). That was not possible before. When confronted with the real possibility of losing use, this becomes a major benefit. In contrast, Marriott owners must declare their intention to take Marriott Rewards by mid-December of the prior year. It must be premeditated or the alternative is lost to them.
 It is one of those flexible uses that means nothing until you have occasion to take advantage of it. When you do, it adds more value than an upgrade will by a long shot.
Just an observation. (if my understanding of the newly announced plan is accurate). If it is not, well, there is a benefit worth pursuing with the Powers- That- Be, IMHO. It is the flaw that makes Marriott Rewards inconsequential in a purchase decision. Back- up value when you need it is a gem.


----------



## LisaRex

FredM, 

You are correct about the StarPoints window, and that is, indeed a positive change.  However, given that Starwood has recently increased the number of StarPoints needed for award stays without adjusting the StarOption conversion rate to keep up with inflation, the whole StarPoints program has become yet another sore point with owners. 

An owner who converts 148,100 StarOptions (which is the weekly conversion for a 2 bdrm unit during high season in Maui) to StarPoints will not have sufficient points for a week stay at a Cat. 7 hotel.  Nor will it be enough for a suite upgrade for a week at a Cat. 5.  An owner who uses their studio week and converts their 1 bdrm week will only have 81,000 StarPoints, which may not even buy them a week at a Cat. 5 hotel.   

Once again, the salesmen sold them on what a great feature the StarPoint conversion option was without disclosing that they wouldn't adjust for inflation.  And what seemed like a really great feature at the time has been signicantly devalued.  So the owners paid a +20% premium to the developer for a feature that will allow them to exchange their spacious 1 bdrm condo at a prime beachfront location for....a 600 foot hotel room in a Category 4 hotel?  

http://www.starwoodhotels.com/preferredguest/starpoints/redeem/point_comparison.html


----------



## tomandrobin

LisaRex said:


> FredM,
> 
> You are correct about the StarPoints window, and that is, indeed a positive change.  However, given that Starwood has recently increased the number of StarPoints needed for award stays without adjusting the StarOption conversion rate to keep up with inflation, the whole StarPoints program has become yet another sore point with owners.
> 
> An owner who converts 148,100 StarOptions (which is the weekly conversion for a 2 bdrm unit during high season in Maui) to StarPoints will not have sufficient points for a week stay at a Cat. 7 hotel.  Nor will it be enough for a suite upgrade for a week at a Cat. 5.  An owner who uses their studio week and converts their 1 bdrm week will only have 81,000 StarPoints, which may not even buy them a week at a Cat. 5 hotel.
> 
> Once again, the salesmen sold them on what a great feature the StarPoint conversion option was without disclosing that they wouldn't adjust for inflation.  And what seemed like a really great feature at the time has been signicantly devalued.  So the owners paid a +20% premium to the developer for a feature that will allow them to exchange their spacious 1 bdrm condo at a prime beachfront location for....a 600 foot hotel room in a Category 4 hotel?
> 
> http://www.starwoodhotels.com/preferredguest/starpoints/redeem/point_comparison.html



Lisa

To use the Staroptions to Starpoints for hotels it would not be 81k Starpoints, it would be 81k staroptions. The Starpoints for a one bedroom conversion will be about half of that for use at hotels. Which makes the situation even worse.


----------



## nodge

SVO Managment Inc. said:


> Thank you for contacting Westin Vacation Ownership.
> 
> We thank you for taking the time to express your concern today. Our goal is to enhance the Elite program benefits and consistently deliver on each of the benefits. Through an Elite owner survey conducted in 2006 to obtain voice of the customer, members responses indicated that the Villa Upgrade benefit was more of a dis-satisfier than a satisfier due to lack of fulfillment. In addition, after thorough internal evaluation of actual fulfillment we confirmed that owner occupancy has increased thus drastically limiting our ability to extend the Villa Upgrade benefit. We have therefore chosen to replace this benefit with benefits that are more likely to be fulfilled. We anticipate that owner occupancy will continue to increase as we will continue to expand our resort locations in the most sought out destinations. In order to maintain consistency in the Elite program, we will not be extending this benefit at any specific occupancy rate.
> 
> Our goal is to continue to survey Elite members, review our internal fulfillment of benefits and continue to research ways to enhance the program. We will conduct at minimum, a yearly review of the programs benefits and services in an effort to keep the program fresh and exciting for our owners.
> 
> We would like to take this opportunity to announce a new and exciting personalized feature just for you! Starwood Vacation Network Elite Member Travel Services was designed to assist with all of your additional travel needs, whether its a family gathering, a romantic getaway or a dream vacation. They offer customized travel planning, including air and car reservations. You may contact the Starwood Vacation Network Elite Member Travel Services toll free at 888-229-4258 or direct at 941-536-0321.
> 
> We hope this information was helpful. Westin Vacation Ownership looks forward to assisting you in the near future. Should you need further assistance, please contact Owner Services at 800.847.8262 in the U.S., Canada and Puerto Rico, 0.800.89.5065 in the United Kingdom, 001.800.847.8262 from Mexico and 407.903.4640 for all other areas. Owner Services is available Monday through Friday, 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. and Saturday through Sunday, 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. Eastern time.
> 
> Kevin Johnston
> E-Communications Specialist
> SVO Management Inc.
> Fax: 407-903-4641
> Website: www.mystarcentral.com



Hey Gang,

 I think those luggage tags are secret SVO message decoders! 

 If you take your SVO Elite Enrollment Form and crunch it up into the little ball that it’s worth and then balance the SVO promotional DVD on top of it with the excessive weight of the luggage tag holding down the DVD, then place the contraption in a sun beam that reflects onto the Hallmark welcome card, a code appears!  The best resolution appears to come if the ink on your SVO Elite Enrollment form is still wet.

Anyway, my decoding skills are a little rusty, but here is what I’ve been able to decode so far from the above SVO message:

“Thank” = Still hazy, but it is a four letter word that starts with “F” and ends with “K”
“enhance” = “screw you and”
“deliver” = “screw you”
“assisting you” = “screwing you again”
“fresh” =  “worthless”

 “more of a dis-satisfier than a satisfier due to lack of fulfillment.” = “a primary benefit for elite members and their decision to become elite members.”

“In order to maintain consistency in the Elite program” = “Because we would rather give excess inventory to fresh meat off the street instead of honoring our promises to you,”

“new” = “pre-existing”
“exciting”  = “worthless”

“SVO Management Inc.”  = Still fuzzy, but it keeps switching between “evil doers” and “dumb asses.”

Thank God for those luggage tags, now we all can finally decode SVO’s messages to us! 

Hey we can even send coded messages back to SVO.  Here's one from me:

THANK YOU!!!   SVO MANAGEMENT INC. for your recent and without warning changes to the SVO Elite Program, which is now rendered "fresh" and "exciting" by your actions.

-nodge


----------



## saluki

Nodge...you are really on a roll...

 :rofl:


----------



## skim118

LisaRex said:


> An owner who uses their studio week and converts their 1 bdrm week will only have 81,000 StarPoints, which may not even buy them a week at a Cat. 5 hotel.



TomandRobin already mentioned it, but here are the numbers and they are awful  

1-bed rm week in WKORV 81,000 Staroptions converts into 43,754 Starpoints.

A Studio week in WKORV 67,100 Staroptions converts into 36,246 Starpoints.


----------



## Fredm

*Not again!*



tomandrobin said:


> Lisa
> 
> To use the Staroptions to Starpoints for hotels it would not be 81k Starpoints, it would be 81k staroptions. The Starpoints for a one bedroom conversion will be about half of that for use at hotels. Which makes the situation even worse.



You are right about that. Again, I am not making a case for the value of StarPoints. Most would readily agree that they are a poor deal for the owner economically. Therefore, would not be selected as a preferred alternative use. But, some do. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Far be it for me to tell others what they should like. You, Lisa, and I seem to agree that they are a poor exchange of value. My point is a different one. When confronted with effectively losing the value of the use-year entirely, StarPoints represent a back-up value that is, at the very worst, some amount of future cost avoidance. Certainly not the crown jewel of Elite status, but a darn good insurance policy.

It is easy to get off on another rant about what is wrong. I think this thread has covered that territory pretty well.  I certainly am not suggesting that Elites should be happy about it. But, recognizing the value of a benefit is the first step in taking advantage of it, if and when the need arises. 

I am going to risk being flamed for this. My post had a simple meaning. It was not complicated. Why then do some feel compelled to resurrect complaints about the devaluation of StarPoints? I am going to weigh in with a candid, objective, response to the subject.  It is not directed at you personally, but the perspective at large, and to those that hold it. My intent is not to be ornery, but to throw some cold water on a line of thinking. If a step back is possible, please take it.
The devaluation of StarPoints should not come as a surprise to anyone. No loyalty program in existence, without exception, has maintained parity with its entry value. The first day in the program represents the best case scenario. Points are devalued in varying degrees for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is inflation and cost of operations. To suggest that they should be adjusted for inflation, or indexed to some similar measure, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It defies the reason they were devalued in the first place. Those that whine about this are not going to change their mind. I know that. It is one of those irrational behaviors that otherwise intelligent people engage in when confronted with reason, and rather be self-righteous. It is an attitude of somehow being special, and exempt from the realities of life. No one would really expect to pay the same amount for a hotel room today then they did 10 years ago, using the same currency as payment (be it points or cash).  Yet, a cause celebre among some here is that they should be entitled to exactly that proposition. Why? Because they own a timeshare? StarPoints are not connected to ownership by deed. They are not part of its "bundle of rights".  They can even be completely canceled, unilaterally, at any time. Almost all know that. So, what is the basis for the position? Now, please, do not roll out the tired argument that because it is an alternative to use, it should remain consistent with the deeds entitled rights. Unless the calendar is repealed, a week will remain 7 nights, forever. The true comparison is not the week, but the maintenance fee to support the weekly use. The cost of operations will increase, and so goes the maintenance fees. Likewise, the cost of maintaining a hotel room increases. Is anyone really suggesting that timeshare maintenance fees be frozen, or Starwood rebate fees based on inflation? What is the difference?  It begins to sound like the huffing and puffing of a spoiled child, who it outraged because what they want is being denied them. The child has an excuse. They do not yet know they are not the center of the universe. This'"points" issue is not an "Elite" member issue. It applies uniformly to all owners who purchased directly from Starwood.. "Elites" are the owners who have the added flexibility to take a back-up value when the real world intrudes on their travel plans. I would be somewhat comforted by that. But, my glass is not always half empty.


----------



## Catazog

I have to say that ". . . members responses indicated that the Villa Upgrade benefit was more of a dis-satisfier than a satisfier due to lack of fulfillment" is the most convoluted marketing-speak I've read in a long time!


----------



## Time2Ponder

Fredm said:


> The devaluation of StarPoints should not come as a surprise to anyone. No loyalty program in existence, without exception, has maintained parity with its entry value.



Fred, if you're going to get flamed, then I should get flamed as well: I made precisely this point earlier when I mentioned Frequent Flyer programs. I also indicated that the only thing to which owners are entitled is that which is spelled out clearly in the deed. It's fairly simple, and I suspect most people recognize and understand the issues. Comprehension, however, is not necessarily synonymous with affection. What's the old joke: "I liked you better before I got to know you...."


----------



## Henry M.

Fredm said:


> Now, please, do not roll out the tired argument that because it is an alternative to use, it should remain consistent with the deeds entitled rights. Unless the calendar is repealed, a week will remain 7 nights, forever. The true comparison is not the week, but the maintenance fee to support the weekly use. The cost of operations will increase, and so goes the maintenance fees.



When you exchange a week for points you are indeed looking at an alternative to use. You give Starwood the right to use/rent your week at whatever the then current rental rates are. Starwood would always be able to recover the cost of the Starpoints since the rental rates for the villas is usually significantly higher than for an equivalent hotel room in the area near the resort.  My week for a 2BR lock-off in Maui  (that is really a week in a studio plus a week in a 1BR) will, over time, be rented for more money than a single room at the Sheraton Maui or Westin Maui.

If the number of days are not kept in line, and given the way hotel rental rates are going up, Starwood is getting a windfall when you exchange your week for Starpoints. If they used a local property as a comparison gauge, then the transaction would be fairer for both sides. 

Having said that, I do agree with you that there is no "right" to such a benefit. If I remember the documents I read when I first purchased a unit, it is outright stated that the SPG conversion privilege could be terminated at any time. I don't feel cheated by the devaluation (I mostly like to use my weeks anyhow), but I wouldn't mind seeing the conversion ratio be maintained. I don't feel like it is an untenable proposition since Starwood is getting something of increasing value when they do the conversion. The exchange could remain even regardless of increasing costs for both types of rooms.


----------



## pointsjunkie

using the starpoints is a major value to me. we use it to go places where starwood has no timeshare. we have stayed at absolutley fabulous resorts. i convert some of my weeks every year and vacation 4-5 times a year ,using the 5th night free award. staying in NYC during christmas with the entire family with points is a benefit that we love.:whoopie:


----------



## LisaRex

FredM, I don't have a pony in this race as I'm a resale owner.  But I do think that retail owners have a legitimate gripe against Starwood management for the many reasons listed in this thread.  I don't think it's petulant or unreasonable to expect that the benefits touted by SVO salesmen would have an equivalent value less than a year later, especially when folks paid tens of thousands of dollars for these benefits.


----------



## TheUnitrep

LisaRex said:


> ...I don't think it's petulant or unreasonable to expect that the benefits touted by SVO salesmen would have an equivalent value less than a year later, especially when folks paid tens of thousands of dollars for these benefits.



Put credence in something a TIMESHARE salesman says (no offense intended Fred), now that's funny!!!:hysterical:


----------



## LisaRex

TheUnitrep said:


> Put credence in something a TIMESHARE salesman says (no offense intended Fred), now that's funny!!!:hysterical:



It's easy for me laugh because I've never sat in front of a timeshare salesman and don't ever intend to.  Hear no lies.


----------



## duke

Fredm said:


> It begins to sound like the huffing and puffing of a spoiled child, who it outraged because what they want is being denied them.



No, Fred.  This is not the case.

These are comments by previously happy customers that are now, due to the changes, unsatisfied.  Unsatisifed customers are not good for any vendor or manager.

To make a comparison to spoiled children is wrong.  These are adults who paid for and continue paying for a superior program (including the extras).

We know what is in the deed and we know what was told to us and we know the difference.  However, that does not make a satisfied customer.

SVO is quite lucky to be able to get this feedback and I hope they will make improvements.  I also hope they will realize that we are not spoiled children, nor are we stupid enough to believe that it is better to have no upgrades than the chance of getting an uprade.


----------



## Time2Ponder

duke said:


> We know what is in the deed and we know what was told to us and we know the difference.  However, that does not make a satisfied customer.



Actually, what makes a satisfied customer is a knowledgable customer, one who approaches a transaction with eyes wide open. Caveat emptor. Make sure that what is important to you (and what will keep you satisfied) appears in the legal contract that you sign. AFAIK, every single loyalty program out there indicates that terms and conditions may be changed, or that the program may be terminated at any time with no liability on the part of the company.

I'm curious: Has any Starwood TS salesperson ever *promised* that the Elite program would be around forever, with all the same benefits? Has any buyer actually even asked this question, or has s/he simply made unfounded and illogical assumptions?

(For the record: I am not an Elite customer, nor have I thought about purchasing additional TSs just for the purposes of becoming Elite.) I am fully aware of the manner in which Starwood has cut back on the Elite program. Despite this fact, however, if Starwood developed additional properties that were of interest to me (*and I received more vacation time*), I'd definitely go ahead and purchase from them. Why? Because they offer a superior TS product. Not because they have an Elite program. 

Btw, I would consider some sort of country club-type plan if Starwood offered it.


----------



## Fredm

*HUH?*



LisaRex said:


> FredM, I don't have a pony in this race as I'm a resale owner.  But I do think that retail owners have a legitimate gripe against Starwood management for the many reasons listed in this thread.  I don't think it's petulant or unreasonable to expect that the benefits touted by SVO salesmen would have an equivalent value less than a year later, especially when folks paid tens of thousands of dollars for these benefits.





> It's easy for me laugh because I've never sat in front of a timeshare salesman and don't ever intend to. Hear no lies.



Lisa, which is it?  If you have not purchased directly and have no pony in this race, you cannot be speaking about lies you have been told. Nor am I speaking about other matters.  I am speaking specifically about a points program. An optional/alternative use that no one is forced to take. The rest has already been pounded into dust.





> These are comments by previously happy customers that are now, due to the changes, unsatisfied. Unsatisifed customers are not good for any vendor or manager.
> 
> To make a comparison to spoiled children is wrong. These are adults who paid for and continue paying for a superior program (including the extras).



Duke, with all due respect, that is exactly what it sounds like. Again, I am speaking about the StarPoints specifically. Nothing else. 



> We know what is in the deed and we know what was told to us and we know the difference. However, that does not make a satisfied customer.


 
As mentioned, I did not expect to change the minds of those who continue with this line of thought.

Look, I am a reseller. The product I represent on behalf of owners to buyers does not include StarPoints, and in some cases, StarOptions. I also have a business interest in the continuation of the requal program. I am not defending Starwood here. They would prefer it if I would just disappear. The conclusion to be drawn from all of this is that it pays to buy a resale. The "premiums" are not worth the difference in price. My vested interest lies in that very proposition. But, if I am not buying the rant, you can bet the ranch Starwood is not. So, what is the point, besides huffing and puffing because you don't like it?


----------



## LisaRex

Fredm said:


> Lisa, which is it?  If you have not purchased directly and have no pony in this race, you cannot be speaking about lies you have been told.



I never said that I was _personally_ told lies.  Nonetheless, I do have sympathy with people who forked over thousands of dollars to developers for benefits that were weaned out. That, IMO, is audaciously unfair and I'll lend my voice to the outcry. 

I also wouldn't be so quick to write off Starwood as being deaf to owner  complaints. I work for an international Fortune 25 consumer products company and our customer base is in the billions.  Yet the potential impact of just a few dozen angry letters can be staggering.  I know lower level managers who have never personally met their category President.  But Mrs. Jones from Little Rock can gain a personal audience with him with one phone call to a consumer complaint line.  The Mrs. Joneses of the world cause Mr. President to lose sleep at night because Mr. President has determined, though much number crunching, that Mrs. Jones is his target audience and she represents _ten thousand _consumers. And, if you have the sense of a cumquat, you keep your loyal consumers happy. 

According to Lodging Magazine, "Fifty percent of (Marriott Vacation Club's) business comes from owners buying additional weeks or referring their friends...”  (http://www.lodgingmagazine.com/index.cfm?fm=Article.Detail&aid=46)  From a marketing POV, that statistic is staggering.  Unless SVO is run by trained monkeys, I can assure you that the owners who have voiced their displeasure over these "modifications" are most definitely being heard by management.  The fact that a V.P. is personally talking to people on the nights and weekends should give you an indication how seriously these complaints are being taken.  

Speaking of marketing, I'm pretty sure I've personally spoken to you when you contacted me via another timeshare resale website. (Your user name is kind of a giveaway.)  It puzzles me what would motivate you, a resale agent, to come into a website of timeshare owners and call the people who could very well be your next customers bratty and whiny.  

Know your target audience and keep them happy.  A lesson for us all.


----------



## baz48

jerseygirl said:


> Great post Fred.
> 
> 
> [*]When the Elite Program was first announced, they forgot to exclude those owners who had purchased all necessary units to qualify via the resale market.  Eventually, the legal people got around to excluding them in the promotional material and official rules, and an effort was made to remove the elite status from these buyers.  I personally know two who used the initial documentation to successfully retain their status -- I'm sure there are lots more.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Does anyone know exactly when the resale issue was added to the promotional material and rules?  I believe it's the language about rights not transferring to a third party.
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## califgal

This debate will go on and on.......we are "no star" and we WERE considering taking the path to 4-5*.  It was lousy of Starwood to take away the upgrade benefit, however even as a "no star" I understood that it should never  be expected,no matter what a saleperson told us. If  the rooms are available and Starwood themselves haven't sold them, to sit empty is a crime. But Starwood giveth and as we have seen, taketh away.

When my husband and I were discussing 5* and lifetime plat, he had mentioned ...what if they at some point take that away?!  I had answered that they could never do that!  Well now we see they can ....!

And the subject of requals....whether people here like it or not Starwood wants to sell timeshares and the requal process is another way to get a sale.

We still will most likely buy another week resale, and really buy the view we want.


----------



## TheUnitrep

LisaRex said:


> ... It puzzles me what would motivate you, a resale agent, to come into a website of timeshare owners and call the people who could very well be your next customers bratty and whiny..



It's nice to have a "resale agent" give his professional opinion, regardless of how much it pains us to hear.  

My earlier post of not putting credence into anything a TIMESHARE salesman says is a result of the numerous developer presentations my wife and I have sat through over the years. 

We've come to realize that developers pay their salesmen to sell intervals not educate potential owners about the idiosyncrasies of ownership.  These salesmen emphasize the positive.  They tout what’s possible but never tell you it’s highly unlikely.  Starwood is no different in this respect.  We’ve learned this the hard way.

Nearly four years ago, we purchased our first Starwood timeshare (Sheraton Mountain Vista).  The salesman said nothing about "Mandatory" v. "Voluntary" resorts and how this distinction impacts the overall value of purchasing at SMV.  While the salesman did not "lie," I think the omission was a calculated one.  However, I do not hold Starwood responsible for the salesman not telling me.  I didn't know any better, so I consider it my fault for not doing my due diligence.  

Because of this, I spent a great deal of time learning about the SVO system and now consider myself pretty knowledgeable about it.  Whenever we attend the owner update presentations during our vacations at Starwood resorts, I find it amusing to ask the salesman pointed questions about ownership.  On several occasions, I have even caught salesmen telling flat out lies about what I can and can't do in response to my questions.  

Once this occurs, I typically take the salesmen by surprise when I inquire about mandatory/voluntary, the value of StarPoint conversion and ability to trade into resorts at the 8-month mark.  At this point, I've had salesmen realize that I am not a "newbie" and they scale down the rhetoric.

While all may not agree with some of the posts in this thread, we should appreciate Fred’s willingness to share his honest perspective.  I would rather deal with a resale agent like Fred, who tells me the “cold, hard truth,” than a salesman who tells me only things I want to hear.  

Jerry


----------



## Time2Ponder

TheUnitrep said:


> While all may not agree with some of the posts in this thread, we should appreciate Fred’s willingness to share his honest perspective.  I would rather deal with a resale agent like Fred, who tells me the “cold, hard truth,” than a salesman who tells me only things I want to hear.
> 
> Jerry



I agree 100%. While everyone can be a critic, not everyone can be a critical advisor. Fred is the latter, IMO. (Just for reference, I have never had any personal or business dealings with Fred and only know him from his posts on this thread. However, I would gladly do business with him in the future, if I had the chance.)


----------



## califgal

I agree, I appreciate Fred's input.
If I was elite I would appreciate having more time to convert into starpoints.  Like Fred said, if you ever had to cancel at least the starpoints give you something although not equal.  I would rather get starpoints then have to deposit into Interval.


----------



## nodge

*Cry Baby!?!*

Hmmm.  A baby is helpless, yet is able to get his or her needs met simply by crying .  . . ..  What’s wrong with that?

SVO MANAGEMENT INC. holds all the cards here and has elected to make a bonehead decision that renders its current elite program essentially worthless.  Moreover, in order to induce sales, IT (not just its salesmen) highly touted this benefit.  EVERY ROOM OF EVERY SVO property included one of those restaurant table fold-cards promoting the program.  Giant floor to ceiling posters in all of its lobbies touted this benefit.  Its web site promoted these benefits and, and yes even its paperwork spelled out the benefits of the program in the form of a signed contract.  (For all you legal guys out there, think "Fraud in the Inducement" not "breach of contract" theories)

SVO MANAGEMENT INC. also relied heavily on the whole Starwood tie-in. At every opportunity is says to potential customers, “Hey you can trust us.  We’re STARWOOD, one of the largest publicly traded hotel chains in the world.  We’re NOT one of those ‘70’s-style timeshare companies.  Sure you’ll pay more with us, but we’re STARWOOD!!”  

SVO MANAGEMENT INC’s latest antics reveal that they are nothing more than one of those ‘70’s-style timeshare companies.  All of you people scolding us for trusting Starwood seem to think we could have seen the sky-blue polyester leisure suits with white shoes they were all wearing under their STARWOOD clothes.  Maybe so, but what do we do now?

At a minimum, I think we owe it to potential new SVO MANAGEMENT INC victims to point out all of the polyester, “polo” cologne, pinkie rings and gold neck chains hiding under SVO MANAGEMENT INC’s “blue chip” veneer.

-nodge


----------



## Fredm

LisaRex said:


> I never said that I was _personally_ told lies.  Nonetheless, I do have sympathy with people who forked over thousands of dollars to developers for benefits that were weaned out. That, IMO, is audaciously unfair and I'll lend my voice to the outcry.
> 
> I also wouldn't be so quick to write off Starwood as being deaf to owner  complaints. I work for an international Fortune 25 consumer products company and our customer base is in the billions.  Yet the potential impact of just a few dozen angry letters can be staggering.  I know lower level managers who have never personally met their category President.  But Mrs. Jones from Little Rock can gain a personal audience with him with one phone call to a consumer complaint line.  The Mrs. Joneses of the world cause Mr. President to lose sleep at night because Mr. President has determined, though much number crunching, that Mrs. Jones is his target audience and she represents _ten thousand _consumers. And, if you have the sense of a cumquat, you keep your loyal consumers happy.
> 
> According to Lodging Magazine, "Fifty percent of (Marriott Vacation Club's) business comes from owners buying additional weeks or referring their friends...”  (http://www.lodgingmagazine.com/index.cfm?fm=Article.Detail&aid=46)  From a marketing POV, that statistic is staggering.  Unless SVO is run by trained monkeys, I can assure you that the owners who have voiced their displeasure over these "modifications" are most definitely being heard by management.  The fact that a V.P. is personally talking to people on the nights and weekends should give you an indication how seriously these complaints are being taken.
> 
> Speaking of marketing, I'm pretty sure I've personally spoken to you when you contacted me via another timeshare resale website. (Your user name is kind of a giveaway.)  It puzzles me what would motivate you, a resale agent, to come into a website of timeshare owners and call the people who could very well be your next customers bratty and whiny.
> 
> Know your target audience and keep them happy.  A lesson for us all.




Lisa.

Regarding my user name being a giveaway, I do not use psudo names because I am in this business. Have been for a very long time. I don't mind having my name associated with my posts. 

 I did not come into a website of timeshare owners and call the people who could very well be my next customers bratty and whinny. Only those whos shoes fit. And, very specifically on a narrow issue of fact that is not disputable . Those who choose to,  make my case.  Call it whatever you wish.

Regarding your being puzzled about my remarks, I will explain them to you. My first post in this thread stated that it would be far easier for me to butt-out of the discussion, precisely because I am a reseller. The reason I joined in is because I felt I had a perspective to offer.  In offering it, my comments were focused on the Elite benefit changes, which is the subject of this thread.
I followed with a post on a positive aspect of the benefit change. Again, very focused on that item only. Both posts clearly giving credence to other owner issues.
Nonetheless, for no other reason than my second post referenced StarPoints, some here including yourself took it as an opportunity to complain about the issue. My problem with the complaint has already been stated. In so doing, I made characterizations I stand behind. This is what puzzles you. Why would I voice them to those with whom I may someday have the opportunity to do business with? .
 Well, I will tell you.  There are legitimate gripes among the Starwood owner base. There are also frivolous ones. Lumping them under a single "dissatisfied customer" hat, is not only counterproductive, it is confusing to some and misleading to many. I fully agree with you that Starwood management would be interested in customer satisfaction issues. Being interested in them, and changing them for the betterment of the owner is another matter entirely. Anyone can make noise. Angry mobs make noise. That does not make them effective. Starwood is not some clueless, bungling timeshare developer. They did not make their changes off the cuff. They knew exactly what they were doing. All based in their business metrics. To be effective, one must be rational about what is being said. If reasonable, and in line with their business  objectives, progress is possible. The surest way to run into a brick wall, is not have a credible argument. They will listen; it's called Public Relations. My characterizations were an attempt at pointing out the irrational. It was not a blanket comment. Indeed, three times in the same post I specifically made note that my comments related to the StarPoints issue only. I repeat, those who find reason to argue with a statement of fact concerning points programs only make my case.
There are those who really do wish to be told what they want to hear. despite their pronouncements that they want to be told what they need to know. My personal best interests were put aside in saying what I believe was need to know stuff. What makes me qualified to say so?  Ah, that is not a question you chose to ask. You were too busy being sure of your point of view. I did not make the comment simply to earn the antagonism of future customers. It is hard enough to accumulate sound information, without confusing the matter  with groundless gripes. That serves no one, and makes the market for what you own less than it should be. Some do not know where their interests lie, even if it bites them in the rear end. Please consider that you may have something to learn. 
In this regard, UnitRep and Time2Ponder, thank you very much for your kind and understanding supportive comments.


----------



## Time2Ponder

nodge said:


> Hmmm.  A baby is helpless, yet is able to get his or her needs met simply by crying .  . . ..  What’s wrong with that?



Unless I'm mistaken, you and other elite members are not helpless infants. [And I'll bet that if I had referred to you in such a manner, you'd have taken offense.] You are independent adults who are capable of reading the fine print (if you so desire), weighing said print and assimilating the information available therein, and then making a sound decision based on your knowledge. That you find yourself in such a position is unfortunate, but, quite honestly, it was avoidable.

Most companies are in business to make money. Starwood is no exception. You claim a breach of trust has occurred (at least that's what I'm assuming, based on your infant analogy), but would you, as an intelligent, knowledgeable adult, trust any of the following people without reading their "fine print": Telemarketers, car salespersons, politicians (I list these occupations because in recent years, polls have indicated that people find them to be among the least trustworthy)? Would you even accept the major findings of the following people without reading their "fine print" or getting a "second opinion": Doctors, clergy, police, teachers (These occupations are considered to be among the most trustworthy)? I sure as heck wouldn't.



nodge said:


> SVO MANAGEMENT INC. holds all the cards here and has elected to make a bonehead decision that renders its current elite program essentially worthless.  Moreover, in order to induce sales, IT (not just its salesmen) highly touted this benefit.  EVERY ROOM OF EVERY SVO property included one of those restaurant table fold-cards promoting the program.  Giant floor to ceiling posters in all of its lobbies touted this benefit.  Its web site promoted these benefits and, and yes even its paperwork spelled out the benefits of the program in the form of a signed contract.  (For all you legal guys out there, think "Fraud in the Inducement" not "breach of contract" theories)
> 
> SVO MANAGEMENT INC. also relied heavily on the whole Starwood tie-in. At every opportunity is says to potential customers, “Hey you can trust us.  We’re STARWOOD, one of the largest publicly traded hotel chains in the world.  We’re NOT one of those ‘70’s-style timeshare companies.  Sure you’ll pay more with us, but we’re STARWOOD!!”
> 
> SVO MANAGEMENT INC’s latest antics reveal that they are nothing more than one of those ‘70’s-style timeshare companies.  All of you people scolding us for trusting Starwood seem to think we could have seen the sky-blue polyester leisure suits with white shoes they were all wearing under their STARWOOD clothes.  Maybe so, but what do we do now?
> 
> At a minimum, I think we owe it to potential new SVO MANAGEMENT INC victims to point out all of the polyester, “polo” cologne, pinkie rings and gold neck chains hiding under SVO MANAGEMENT INC’s “blue chip” veneer.
> 
> -nodge



I don't know what salespeople you met. However, when we did the tour for Starwood (a three-hour WKORV-N tour), the salesperson and closer were obviously (despite their "blue-chip veneer") the polyester lesiure suit-wearing types. Eventually, they wore us down and we signed. The next day, we were annoyed enough about the fact that we'd been held hostage for three hours that we rescinded while there. But we still LOVED the blue-chip product. So we went the resale route, knowing that following such route meant we would lose some of Starwood's benefits.

Ultimately, Starwood does not hold all the cards. If you're that unhappy with your purchase and their product (which guarantees only a lifetime's worth of great vacations [sans upgrades, of course]), you can always sell. Ultimately, the power to do or to not do a certain thing is in your hands.

As far as I'm concerned, Westin still offers a superior, blue-chip product. I knew what I was getting (as well as what I wasn't getting) and I purchased exactly what I wanted.

It's not Starwood's fault that you didn't do the same.


----------



## tomandrobin

Even with these recent changes, I still love our Starwood ownership. I didn't care if I got a free upgrade on check-in....ever. If I ever do, great! But if I book a one bedroom, that is what I expect. 

I am one of the few that like the Staroption/point conversion. I have posted before on this option, and how we see it as a great asset to our membership. I don't agree with the way Starwood is devaluing the option system. I think its more of a reflection of non-resort owners that are driving the change, but unfortunately we feel the pain the most. The conversion rate and point value for our units will remain constant, but for non-members over time will have more means to "earn" more points.

Fred I like they way you are putting the information out there.....straight and to the point! 

This change will not deter us from purchasing additional Starwood properties. The goal of becoming 5* is probably dead. We bought Starwood cuase we like the properies in thier system and being able to internally trade within the Starwood system. Now, if Starwod did away with thier Staroption program, we'll be running over to Marriott.


----------



## myip

I understand the no size upgrade.  How about view upgrade?  Does Elite has a priority over the view of the unit for resort that you don't own?  How about for resort that you own ie: Maui?


----------



## DavidnRobin

I had dropped out of this thread when the insults started flying (sadly - not even recognized as such by the poster - and still persisted for a 100+ posts)

A few comments (from my viewpoint only):

We are one of those scoundrels that bought resale, and then requaled.  I cannot believe that any type of promise was made by SVO/SVN to Owners that the exclusiveness of the Elite program was to them only, and requals would never be considered - for one simple reason - even now few Owners and SVO know little about requals - and therefore even less so back then.  This goes for M and V resorts also - it is very complicated on its own - who would have ever thought to ask?

I believe that requals are a drop in the bucket (how many people even know about them or have used them? - I would guess <500 given my direct experience and reading TUG) - and we are not the reasons for the 'pure' Elite members issues regarding the breakdown of the system.  SVO's objective is to sale VOIs and make profit for their shareholders.  Your issues should be with Starwood and elimination of benefits.  We played the game as best we could - if others would have done the same DD as us - they would have taken the same approach as we did and saved $10000s.  I have no sympathy whatever.

While I appreciate Fred's viewpoints - I do not agree with them all, but he has ever right to write them (of course), and I appreciate the effort.  Although a few more paragraph breaks would help in reading them.  

We did not buy WPORV and then requal WKORV for the Elite program - it was just an added benefit.  We did it because (as I said before) I believe that WPORV will be a unique TS to own - even with it being a Voluntary resort - and we got over 250K SPs in doing so - along with a great resort at 50% and 3*Elite (which we don't really need).

As I wrote - with the elimination of Villa Upgrade, and future benefit eliminations  - it is unlikely we would buy more VOIs from SVO to move up the Elite ladder - we would not need Plat-for-Life for may years from now - besides there seems to be 1000s of these on Flyer-Talk.

We bought into SVO/SN becuase we loved the properties and the system. As I wrote earlier - we have little need for the Villa Upgrade or the SO-SP conversion.  We bought where we wanted to go and the view type we wanted.  We paid a hefty premium for OF at WKORV (resale) with our eyes wide open.  We also bought WPORV (from SVO) with our eyes wide open and with tremendous DD.  My discusssions with SVO/Suzanne were more about making promises and then breaking them - even know they have every right to do so.  Just bad business - and I saw old-school TS mentality at work.

I keep reading about the elimination of SOs and SPs (and changing M resorts to V resorts) - where does this come from? These are part of the contract since they are part of the CCC&Rs agreed to when signing the contract - and tied into the SVO program as a whole.  Yes, they can devalue them - but I don't believe they could eliminate them.  Also, they cannot change a M resort to a V resort - this is also part of the contract signed for these resorts - unless they eliminated SVN  They could eliminate SVN as the method for exchanging since they do have an Exchange Club for each TS region set-up in the CCC&Rs that was intended for that purpose, but they would be crazy to try and eliminate SVN, or eliminate SPs. It is basic to their 4-part program (Home Owner, SVN Exchange, SO-SP conversion, and II).

Anyway - best of luck - enjoy those vacation that you bought and SVO was selling.  We still love the system and the resorts - and are even happier that we bought resale-mandatory, and extracted as much as we could by playing the game. (ty TUG)

We are off to Love City (STJ-WSJ) in a few days - woohoo!  What a great resale buy that was - and as a fixed week/unit - would never need to requal it - just use it every year and enjoy ourselves (or rent, or direct exchange). And certainly never use the SVN system or the SO-SP conversion - 67.1K SOs and 22K SPs for a 2Bd/3Ba TH at WSJ - why even bother?


----------



## tomandrobin

DavidnRobin said:


> We are off to Love City (STJ-WSJ) in a few days - woohoo!







You guys have a great trip! We were just talking about St John this morning. Remembering what a great time we had on our last visit. We are heading to Harborside next week!


----------



## nodge

My beef is with SVO MANAGEMENT INC., not with anything a salesmen said or did.

Let’s review.  SVO MANGEMENT INC. elected to cancel at will and without any advance notice very recent written promises (in at least one case reported here promises made only a day or two earlier) made to induce sales.  Independent of its legal ability to do this (which I think is debatable), its actions also have a certain negative public relations price for SVO MANAGEMENT INC.

This web site is one of the places where it pays that price, and we are the ones responsible for making sure they pay it.  Otherwise, if we (the elite owners who are directly affected by this decision) let SVO MANAGEMENT INC. just slide by on this, we send a message to it that the political consequences for similar boneheaded decisions in the future will also be minimal. 

For ALL SVN members, this means the very foundation of the SVO program--the Holy Grail StarOption program—could face a similar fate.  Earlier this year, SVO MANAGEMENT INC. had no problem arbitrarily and without notice upping the StarOptions needed to stay in Cancun.  It gave the higher StarOption amount to the folks who had already bought there, but it didn’t have any legal obligation to do so.  Those folks got lucky.  Who’s to say it won’t one day just up and reduce the StarOptions associated with a particular resort?  

One of the basic tenets of real estate is stability.  Although a timeshare is a quasi real-estate purchase, SVO MANAGEMENT INC. should recognize that real or perceived every time it arbitrarily changes the terms of its program, and especially making those changes without notice to us owners, it is compromising that stability.   The fact that it cancelled benefits within months or even days of giving them to us certainly doesn’t help maintain a perception of a stable program.

Maybe elite upgrades aren’t a big enough rallying point to get us owners to work together to protect our interests from SVO MANAGEMENT INC.   The fact remains that SVO MANAGEMENT INC. screwed some of us, and if we owners don’t at least voice our displeasure, SVO MANAGEMENT INC. won’t even think twice before screwing all of us much more later.

-nodge


----------



## Time2Ponder

nodge said:


> For ALL SVN members, this means the very foundation of the SVO program--the Holy Grail StarOption program—could face a similar fate.



Yes, we know/knew that was always a possibility, no matter how distant. That's why we bought what we wanted (OF deluxe) where we wanted it (WKORV). We own real property, not membership in a network.




nodge said:


> One of the basic tenets of real estate is stability.
> 
> -nodge



Our deeds are eminently stable. It is the loyalty and network programs that are not.


----------



## grgs

tomandrobin said:


> This change will not deter us from purchasing additional Starwood properties. The goal of becoming 5* is probably dead. We bought Starwood cuase we like the properies in thier system and being able to internally trade within the Starwood system. Now, if Starwod did away with thier Staroption program, we'll be running over to Marriott.



My point of view exactly!  Truly, if they ever did away with internal trading (StarOptions), their one advantage over Marriott would be gone.  I assume Starwood/Hilton/Hyatt are what's driving Marriott's talk of developing an internal trading system.

Glorian


----------



## DavidnRobin

tomandrobin said:


> You guys have a great trip! We were just talking about St John this morning. Remembering what a great time we had on our last visit. We are heading to Harborside next week!



Thanks - we plan to - enjoy Harborside.

I had forgot to add to my post: while SVO claims to have polled Elites about the Villa Upgrade and came to the conclusion based on the poll that it caused more displeasure than benefit (hard to believe)- no where has anybody chimed-in on TUG that they were polled.  So - which Elites were actually polled?  You would think at least on Tugger would have mentioned that they had been polled - hmmm....


----------



## tomandrobin

DavidnRobin said:


> Thanks - we plan to - enjoy Harborside.
> 
> I had forgot to add to my post: while SVO claims to have polled Elites about the Villa Upgrade and came to the conclusion based on the poll that it caused more displeasure than benefit (hard to believe)- no where has anybody chimed-in on TUG that they were polled.  So - which Elites were actually polled?  You would think at least on Tugger would have mentioned that they had been polled - hmmm....



Must have been the same poll that indicated we wanted luggage tags!

Curious why they only sent one tag. We usually need 2 to 10 tags for travel. Who only uses one?


----------



## LisaRex

I've got no beef with Fred M. giving his perspective.  In fact, I honestly appreciate it.  One of his colleagues offered invaluable advice when I was searching for my resale which saved me a ton of money.  It's his, and others' characterization of owners who complain about Starwood's business practices as "whiny" that I take issue with.   It is perfectly legitimate for unhappy consumers to air their grievances about timeshare management on a timeshare message board. If you don't agree with what I say then let's open up a respectful dialogue about it.


----------



## Negma

DavidnRobin said:


> Thanks - we plan to - enjoy Harborside.
> 
> I had forgot to add to my post: while SVO claims to have polled Elites about the Villa Upgrade and came to the conclusion based on the poll that it caused more displeasure than benefit (hard to believe)- no where has anybody chimed-in on TUG that they were polled.  So - which Elites were actually polled?  You would think at least on Tugger would have mentioned that they had been polled - hmmm....



We were polled. We discussed why we liked the upgrade perk. This thread has gotten off track and personal and that bothers me more than the issue.

I would still like for folks to put their efforts into ideas to improve the program. What would motivate you to buy more properties other than what everyone already agrees is a great product.


----------



## pointsjunkie

i have kept out of this for the most part, but i have read on this site that the elites would stand on-line at wkorv and be upset with the staff if they could not get upgraded,we did this to ourselves.

the staff would report back  to management that the owners were unhappy and sometimes obussive because they were expecting an upgrade (as in entitled) so to alleviate the problem they just got rid of it. it stated  upgrades only if a available. poor behavior of a few, made this happen.

do i think 5* should have the perk back, absolutely.


----------



## arlene22

Negma said:


> I would still like for folks to put their efforts into ideas to improve the program. What would motivate you to buy more properties other than what everyone already agrees is a great product.



To me, the most valuable Elite perk comes at 4* : the ability to hold a reservation and waitlist at the same time.


----------



## gns4az

*Consistency*



DavidnRobin said:


> I had forgot to add to my post: while SVO claims to have polled Elites about the Villa Upgrade and came to the conclusion based on the poll that it caused more displeasure than benefit (hard to believe)- no where has anybody chimed-in on TUG that they were polled.  So - which Elites were actually polled?  You would think at least on Tugger would have mentioned that they had been polled - hmmm....



Were we (a 3 *) polled?  *Not*.

Did we get an email notice of the changes?  *Not*  (so happens to arrived via snail mail yesterday - discouraging that I had to read about it here nearly two weeks ago)

Luggage tags?  Don't really care, but Not.

Are we unhappy with the changes to the elite program?  *Yes*

Would we buy additional developer units?  *Absolutely Not*  We understood the rules of the upgrade benefit ("as available basis") and received upgrades twice in the past two years.  Since we have the advantage of traveling during off peak times at most locations, we saw this as a distinct benefit of multiple week ownership.


----------



## Westin5Star

*My Response to Starwood Survey:*

My communications have been regarding the villa upgrade option that was COMPLETELY taken away from all Elite levels.  Based on the numbers, it makes total sense for you to still, at minimum, offer villa upgrades to 5* Elites at time of checkin when available.  There is no reason to allow rooms to go unused!  

Suzanne and everyone else I talked to was nice but the decision that is being made lacks proper logic.  If owners are upset because all of the lounge chairs are taken, do you take away all of the lounge chairs?  I believe that recommunicating the policy to remind owners would have been the best way to handle the problem.  It also probably would have made sense to disallow calls for upgrades and require this to be communicated only at checkin and when available.  

I believe that with the number of 3* Elites vs. number of resorts, it also possibly even made sense to close out the upgrade option for 3*s (just surprising them with it when it was available).  There are only about 2000 4* and 5*.  Based on occupancy rates and number or SVO rooms available this option for your "most valued?" customers should have continued!  

Starwood is getting alot of bad press about this and has already lost past and future sales.  I believe that quickly reconsidering and revising this policy will lesson the future negative impact of this very poor decision!


----------



## pointsjunkie

i basically siad the same thing to the person who called me. offer the upgrade at check-in to 4 & 5*s if available. doubt if it will come back. but we can all try.


----------



## mariawolf

Any elite member should be able to upgrade at check in if available!!!!!
Got the brochure in the mail today--spent a lot of money printing/mailing that out--what a waste of money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A simple letter telling us we no longer matter to them would have been enough!


----------



## duke

I received the brochure.....5* ELITE does NOT say SVN fee waived.
Is this also a hidden change??????


----------



## Transit

mariawolf said:


> Any elite member should be able to upgrade at check in if available!!!!!
> Got the brochure in the mail today--spent a lot of money printing/mailing that out--what a waste of money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A simple letter telling us we no longer matter to them would have been enough!



Are you saying Starwood has changed it's position on villa upgrades for elites?


----------



## mariawolf

No I am just posting my opinion about the removal of elite benefits and the fact that they wasted money printing up a fancy brochure when all they should have done was sent a letter.


----------



## myip

*? 5 Stars Elite*



duke said:


> I received the brochure.....5* ELITE does NOT say SVN fee waived.
> Is this also a hidden change??????



Does 5 stars get $99 StarPoint conversion fee waived.  Do  5 star still have noon check out?


----------



## KOR5Star

myip said:


> Does 5 stars get $99 StarPoint conversion fee waived.  Do  5 star still have noon check out?



Going through the 5 Star brochure section by section...

Automatic Platinum Preferred Guest Membership
This used to be called "Platinum for Life" IIRC.  I'm concerned the term changed to something that doesn't sound so long lasting.

Platinum Concierge Service
This is just saying you're SPG Platinum again.  It comes with platinum.

Priority Early Villa Check-in (2PM)

Priority Late Villa Check-out (Noon)

Secure Wait list Priority for Stays at SVO Resorts While Keeping Your Confirmed Reservation

Friendship Rewards Program Upgrade
40K Starpoints instead of the usual 20K points.

Exclusive Discounts on Owner Events and Vacation Packages
Woo-hoo.  Keep it.

Earn More Starpoints Through Signiture Escapes
5K bonus Starpoints.  Overpriced travel offerings.  Keep them too.

Partner Preferred Programs
They give your name to "partners" so they can spam you with "offers".

SVN Elite Preferred Rates at TPC Golf Courses
Doh!  I'm a tennis guy.  

Exclusive Toll-Free Number and SVN Elite Special Services Team
A team dedicated to making the experience feel anything but "exclusive" and making you feel anything but "elite".

SVN Elite Member Travel Services
We're stupid enough to over pay for Timeshare, maybe we're stupid enough to overpay for simple travel services.

Annual Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints Conversion
Every year conversions.

$99 Starpoints Conversion Fee Waived

New Extended Starpoints Conversion Period
October 1st.

Earn a 10% Premium on Starpoints Conversion

Nothing about the SVN membership being waived.  We'll find out when the MFs are due.  I'd like to hear the spin about them offering us the unique opportunity to hand over more cash each year.

Call me a pessimist, but the shine is off the apple for me.  I can't help but look at the whole thing through a jaunticed eye.  I'll be at WKORV in August.  I fear I may not enjoy it as much... knowing I've done business with people whose word is worthless.


----------



## myip

Is the only different between 4 stars and 5 stars is:

Automatic Platinum Preferred Guest Membership
This used to be called "Platinum for Life" IIRC. I'm concerned the term changed to something that doesn't sound so long lasting.


----------



## zeke013

KOR5Star said:


> Call me a pessimist, but the shine is off the apple for me.  I can't help but look at the whole thing through a jaunticed eye.  I'll be at WKORV in August.  I fear I may not enjoy it as much... knowing I've done business with people whose word is worthless.




Correct me if I'm wrong - but aren't there enough 4* and 5* Elites around to raise hell?  Seems like some well-placed pressure from some of Starwood's most loyal customers could get the attention of some of the shot-callers.  I realize "selling" your timeshare won't get much attention since they don't care who's paying the fees - but I am surprised there isn't some sort of letter-writing/calling campaign to the CEO.

I would think having 2,000-3,000 of your strongest base contacting you to complain about a policy change would work wonders.  

http://www.starwoodhotels.com/corporate/profile_overview.html

Then again, maybe I'm naive.


----------



## calgarygary

Interesting link, I did not realize that Starwood's CEO & Chairman does not have a history in the hospitality industry.  Maybe that is why the current direction of the Elite program and possibly of Starwood is moving away from service.  It is quite possible that the corporate direction is in development anticipating that growth through acquisitions (hotels) and development (timeshares) will offset any customer loyalty losses that decreases in customer service will cause.


----------



## skim118

calgarygary said:


> Interesting link, I did not realize that Starwood's CEO & Chairman does not have a history in the hospitality industry.  Maybe that is why the current direction of the Elite program and possibly of Starwood is moving away from service.  It is quite possible that the corporate direction is in development anticipating that growth through acquisitions (hotels) and development (timeshares) will offset any customer loyalty losses that decreases in customer service will cause.



Starwood is still looking for a real CEO;  they just a have an interim one because the previous CEO was "fired"  in April for having an "inappropriate" relationship(sic) with an employee.

Starwood when it was run and basically built-up to where it is by Barry Sternlicht used to be a customer-centric corporation.  Now it is leaderless and the current management is essentially taking whatever short-term measures it can take to avoid being swallowed up private equity groups.


----------



## pointsjunkie

we have been sending letters, making phone calls,and sending e-mails to anyone at starwood that would listen. after speaking to suzanne clark, they are taking all our concerns and complaints, and sugeestions to a think tank and hopefully they will address them. let's give them time. at least a week.:hysterical:


----------



## Westin5Star

It had been about a week and a half since my conversatoin with Suzanne so  I emailed her to find out if any changes had been discussed or made.  She said that the current policy is still that villa upgrades will never be given.  In my conversation over the phone she had told me that she couldn't see Starwood letting a 1BR sit empty and placing a 5* Elite in a studio.  However, based on her email this is the new and current policy!


----------



## Westin5Star

*My Response To Suzanne Clark*

Suzanne,

Thank you for getting back to me.  I am sure hoping that Starwood revisits and changes this policy; if even only for 5*s.  I’m not sure if you have seen the TUG posts concerning the new HGVC Elite Program.  It would appear to me that anyone considering buying multiple weeks and wanting to truly be Elite will give priority to HGVC over SVO.  THIS WILL MEAN MANY LOST SALES FOR STARWOOD UNLESS THEY CHANGE THEIR POLICY.  Here is the link:
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49554


Here is one of the comments:
Quote:
Originally Posted by myip  
The new elite has 3 level.

Elite Plus
Upgrade to next best unit type at point of check in subject to availability

Hey Starwood!!! While you were busy removing room upgrades for elite members, Hilton was busy adding them. Well at least one company is listening to us. Congrats Hilton owners! You chose wisely.

-nodge


----------



## Courts

nodge said:


> Hmmm.  A baby is helpless, yet is able to get his or her needs met simply by crying .  . . ..  What’s wrong with that?
> 
> SVO MANAGEMENT INC. holds all the cards here and has elected to make a bonehead decision that renders its current elite program essentially worthless.  *Moreover, in order to induce sales, IT (not just its salesmen) highly touted this benefit.  EVERY ROOM OF EVERY SVO property included one of those restaurant table fold-cards promoting the program.  Giant floor to ceiling posters in all of its lobbies touted this benefit.  Its web site promoted these benefits and, and yes even its paperwork spelled out the benefits of the program in the form of a signed contract*.  (For all you legal guys out there, think "Fraud in the Inducement" not "breach of contract" theories)
> 
> SVO MANAGEMENT INC. also relied heavily on the whole Starwood tie-in. At every opportunity is says to potential customers, “Hey you can trust us.  We’re STARWOOD, one of the largest publicly traded hotel chains in the world.  We’re NOT one of those ‘70’s-style timeshare companies.  Sure you’ll pay more with us, but we’re STARWOOD!!”
> 
> SVO MANAGEMENT INC’s latest antics reveal that they are nothing more than one of those ‘70’s-style timeshare companies.  All of you people scolding us for trusting Starwood seem to think we could have seen the sky-blue polyester leisure suits with white shoes they were all wearing under their STARWOOD clothes.  Maybe so, but what do we do now?
> 
> At a minimum, I think we owe it to potential new SVO MANAGEMENT INC victims to point out all of the polyester, “polo” cologne, pinkie rings and gold neck chains hiding under SVO MANAGEMENT INC’s “blue chip” veneer.
> 
> -nodge


If Starwood were in the insurance industry in the state of PA, they would be in deep trouble with all the "inducements" and not delivering. Yes even though it was not spelled out in the FINE PRINT.

From my perspective, their "starpoints makeup" is more of an insult than anything. The whole Starpoints thing are mere crumbs to me.

.


----------



## wannagotoo

So what do we do? I have tried email, calling, etc. We have 4 units purchased at the same location solely based on the benefits we were told we would receive which are now basically 75% gone. What is the next step?


----------



## DavidnRobin

wannagotoo said:


> So what do we do? I have tried email, calling, etc. We have 4 units purchased at the same location solely based on the benefits we were told we would receive which are now basically 75% gone. What is the next step?



IMO - not a whole lot unless you want to attempt a class action suit - and based on the contractual text - it may be difficult to find an attorney to take the case.

I would plan on using/exchanging/renting your units and use your vacations and remaining benefits to the fullest.

You can complain (as we all have) and hope they make it right.

oh yeah - do not buy anymore VOIs direct from SVO - and tell everyone who is interested in TSing to buy resale.

****
If this were OZ - all I would need to do is click my heels together 3 times and I would be back home in Kansas.
****


----------



## wannagotoo

Is there any clarity as to how the units are assigned? I called today and was told:
-It is not based on the number of units you own at the property OR status but when you make your reservation
-If you book 12 month out, you can only receive the view type you paid for but if you book 8 months out you can request an upgraded view but it is only based on availability
-Rooms are assigned according to when you booked with no regard to status

Has anyone received other information?


----------



## DeniseM

If you are an owner, and reserve at 12 mos. out, your Resv. is timestamped and your priority for a good location is based on that timestamp.  The rest of this thread about upgrades doesn't really apply to one week owners.

So, in theory, if you own ocean view, and you were the 10th person to call in the morning, 12 mos. out, you would be 10th in line for the best view - ocean view.  Rooms are not assigned until the night before.

If you book at less than 8 mos. out, you are making a Staroptions exchange and you lose your owner's priority period - in other words, it's like an exchanging in from another resort.  You could even get an island view unit.  The people that reserved early the first day, should get the best views.

Your mileage may vary!


----------



## nodge

*Any benefit with filing ARDA Ethics complaints against Starwood?*

Hi Gang,

I’ve got a question (below) about the American Resort Development Association's (ARDA's) dispute resolution practices, but before I ask it let me fill you in on some things I’ve been able to find out about ARDA.

BACKGROUND:

Unless we affirmatively opt out each year, each of us Starwood Owners automatically pay $5 each year to ARDA, whose primary objective appears to be lobbying governments (Feds, State and Local) to favor timeshare development issues.

Near as I can tell, ARDA appears to be run and managed by the big timeshare developers, with Starwood Vacation Ownership’s own (former?) CEO even serving as Chairman of ARDA last year.

Individual timeshare owners like us are not eligible to join ARDA.  ARDA membership appears to be limited to timeshare developers and related companies that serve the timeshare industry.  These folks appear to meet regularly in Vegas to give each other awards and the like.

ARDA’s web site also offers limited consumer protection information for us.  For example, it reports that in order to be a member of ARDA, each timeshare developer agrees to abide by an ARDA regulated "Code of Standards & Ethics" related to consumer solicitations, sales meetings, and administrative procedures. ARDA says that if any ARDA member violates any of these provisions, it will investigate and if warranted sanction the violating company.  It would appear that the only sanction it has though is to cancel that developer’s ARDA membership.

I’ve reviewed the “Code of Standards & Ethics” and I’m pretty sure that SVO MANAGEMENT, INC’s at will cancellation of the elite upgrade benefit only months and even in some cases days after inducing new sales with this promise violates many of ARDA’s “Code of Standards & Ethics” provisions.

QUESTION:

In light of the foregoing, here is my question:

Given the fact that the wolves are running ARDA, is there any benefit for us sheep to report these “code of standards & ethics violations” to ARDA?

I suspect that doing so would at least force some sort of written response from Starwood.  Who knows, if enough of us filed these complaints (via THIS on-line form by the way), maybe Starwood would have to take notice.

Then again, I don’t know why ARDA would really be all that interested in helping us consumers, particularly against one of its best paying members that has also gotten all of us owners to pay ARDA a little something each year too.

Florida's Bureau of Compliance - Timeshare Section also offers this complaint form which looks promising. 

Thoughts?

-nodge


----------



## califgal

I would say anything is worth a try, but it does sound like the fox is minding the hen house!


----------



## Henry M.

*Villa upgrades for Elite members*

I just got a letter from Starwood informing me about my reservation for WKORV-N next year. It is dated July 20. In the section about "important information about your reservation"  it states:

- Particular view categories are garanteed only for Owners of the Westin Ka' anapali Ocean Resort Villas North who are making their reservations during their Home Resort Preference Period 12-8 months prior to the arrival date). Owners reserving less than 8 months prior to their arrival date do not have guaranteed access to their deeded view.

- Ever effort will be made to fulfill your special requests, including villa assignment requests, but requests are not guaranteed. 

- Unforeseen events or circumstances beyond our control may result in last-minute changes. As a result, villa assignment or special requests that have been fulfilled will not be released or confirmed prior to the check-in process on the day of arrival. 

- Special requests placed by Starwood Vacation Network Elite Members are fulfilled based solely on availability of a vacant villa in the desired upgrade category, once all requests have been processed.  

_[I take it you can still place special requests as an Elite member and get an upgrade, if available.]_

- For security reasons, neither the resort staff nor Owner Services will confirm specific villa assignment prior to the check-in on the day of arrival.

- Changes made to the length of a reservation (changing the arrival or departure date) or to a different size villa (other than releasing one side of the lockoff) will result in a loss of priority in the queue for fulfilling requests.


----------



## BradC

I wouldn't put too much faith in the reservation confirmation comments reflecting current policies.  My Harborside reservation, which I just made this month, warns me about construction at the resort continuing through _late 2005_.


----------



## LisaRex

BradC said:


> I wouldn't put too much faith in the reservation confirmation comments reflecting current policies.  My Harborside reservation, which I just made this month, warns me about construction at the resort continuing through _late 2005_.



That's just embarrassing. 

Does anyone else envision the SVO reservationists typing out the confirmation letters on an IBM Selectric?


----------



## Westin5Star

*Platinum Upgrade Given*

My family and I traveled to Colorado last week.  We tried to use some StarOptions to stay in Avon but there was no availability.  We then decided to stay at the St. Regis Aspen using StarPoints.  I had read that the automatic platinum upgrade was not valid at the St. Regis brand and specifically (on Flyertalk) that the Aspen location did not give upgrades to suites.  I was very surprised at checkin to have received an upgrade to an awesome 1BR suite.  It made a big difference in being comfortable and having some extra room with my two small kids.

I am still shocked that no 3,4, or 5* Elite has posted proof of a TS upgrade since the benefit was taken away a few months ago.   I am even more shocked that Starwood is leaving perfectly good 1BRs go unused right next to a 5* Elite (who likely has spent a lot of $ with Starwood) staying in a small Studio.  This still just makes no sense to me!

If you have been upgraded at a TS in the past few months then please post the details.  If you have been in a studio and not been given an upgrade to 1BR (if you knew that one was available) then please post.


----------



## fljbrs

I'm 5-star elite and I have just been upgraded at WKORV-N. My weeks there are island view and we got a beautiful ocean front (not sure if it was considered ocean view or ocean front, but it was in fact what I could accept as ocean front). Sincerely, I was not expecting that, and probably the resort being brand new has something to do with it. Obviusly, the reservation was made almost one year ago (but not in the first possible day for it).
It's been a good surprise, as it has been the resort itself..I was afraid about what to expect just in the second week after opening, but everything was fine. My only complain would be that nobody is watching the pool to enforce the rules, and that means jacuzzis always full of children using them as small pools  and disturbing anyone else (under 16 are not allowed to be in the jacuzzis), or even some glass bottle at the pool (and that is a BIG RISK with those winds!).
Anyway, wonderful resort and excellent staff.
About 5-star benefits, I don't think the upgrades here are so important...I sincerely trust Starwood when they say it could be quite frustrating...if getting an unit in Hawaii or the Caribbean is almost impossible out of your home resort, then it's obvious an upgrade to a larger unit would be more a fantasy than a real option to expect. I would make them other suggestions....for instance, free valet parking or free daily tidy service for 5-star owners...things like those would be much more practical than flying upgrades, imho.


----------



## Negma

We were also upgraded at the north to an Ocean view. I am travelling on business, but I did get a picture of the view that I will post when I get back. The story is the same as above.


----------



## myip

fljbrs said:


> I'm 5-star elite and I have just been upgraded at WKORV-N.


The new SVN elite benefits starts in 2008.  You can still get upgrade this year.


----------



## califgal

I am of the the belief, that for your very first stay, unless you have purchased oceanfront, (because where else can you go from there?!)..they upgrade you(reguardless of status) so that you want to upgrade your purchase.  Our first year(we bought island view at WKORV) we were upgraded to a oceanview deluxe , and it was a fabulous view! That reservation was made probably at the 8th month window, we vacationed in August.

The next time I made the reservation at 12 mo. and we got our mountain vew, but luckily a high floor. This was during April spring break of this year.


----------



## Westin5Star

myip said:


> The new SVN elite benefits starts in 2008.  You can still get upgrade this year.



I was specifically told (as many others were) that the changes to the benefits took place earlier this year when they were announced.  Specifically I was told that, effective immediate, no upgrades for Elite owners will be given.  The only exception to this (immediate policy change) was the increase StarPoints upon conversion which are set to start in 2008; it was not appropriate for them to start this half way through the year.  I do have great news on the upgrade issue which I will be posting shortly.


----------



## Westin5Star

*Email to Suzanne Clark*

Before I copy the email that I sent I would like to say that Suzanne has communicated very well throughout this tough time of changing benefits.  She is a true professional and has definitely made me feel like a valued customer.  This morning I sent the following email to Suzanne:

Suzanne,
It has been a couple of months since we spoke.  I again appreciate the time that you spent talking to me.  When I had first called the Elite phone number, I was also told that upgrades would not ever be given.  In our last conversation, you informed me that Starwood’s policy was that they would not be doing any upgrades for 5* Elite owners.  You did mention that you were taking our feedback and that you were going to see if anything could be changed.  Two 5* Elite TUG members just posted stories of recently being upgraded.  If this means that you were able to positively impact the policy, I would like to thank you VERY MUCH!  Does this mean that you were able to get the policy changed?  Can we as 5* Elite members at least have a hope of an upgrade at check in?
Thank you again for you help and assistance,


----------



## Westin5Star

*Upgrades Are Back!*

Here is Suzanne's reply:
So nice to hear from you again.  While we are not going to communicate the villa upgrade as a promised benefit, we have put the process in place to surprise and delight our Elite owners and automatically upgrade you when available.  It will work just like the SPG upgrade benefit, if available upon check in we will automatically upgrade you. Have a great evening! Suzanne 

I then sent this for clarification:
I’m sorry Suzanne but I had one more question for clarification.  I am assuming that a 5* Elite would get an upgrade before a 3 or 4* Elite if only one was available.  Is this correct?

Here is Suzanne's reply:
Yes, we will begin with 5,4,3 star as priority..... Suzanne


----------



## Negma

I too have continued to talk with her electronically to keep this issue alive. Her communication makes sense and is a reasonable starting point. Thank you for keeping us in the loop.


----------



## LisaRex

Sounds like a reasonable solution.


----------



## rocky

Westin5Star said:


> we have put the process in place to surprise and delight our Elite owners..........



Sounds like Starwood has jumped on the Net Promoter Score bandwagon......  "surprise and delight" gives it away.


----------



## fran

*Surprise and Delight*

We just returned from a wonderful 2 week stay at WKORV-N.  My reservation was for a 1BR the first week and a studio for the second week.  Upon check-in, I asked if it was possile to convert the second week to a 1BR unit if we shortened our stay.  I was told that they would let me know after the room assignments had been made for that week.  Well, quite to my surprise, I was told that we could remain in the 1BR unit that we were in for the second week as a complementary upgrade and we did not have to shorten our stay.  We were not only surprised and delighted, but thrilled to be 3 Star Elite if that had anything to do with it.

Fran


----------



## duke

Westin5Star said:


> Here is Suzanne's reply:
> So nice to hear from you again.  While we are not going to communicate the villa upgrade as a promised benefit, *we have put the process in place to surprise and delight our Elite owners and automatically upgrade you when available.  It will work just like the SPG upgrade benefit, if available upon check in we will automatically upgrade you.* Have a great evening! Suzanne
> 
> I then sent this for clarification:
> I’m sorry Suzanne but I had one more question for clarification.  I am assuming that a 5* Elite would get an upgrade before a 3 or 4* Elite if only one was available.  Is this correct?
> 
> Here is Suzanne's reply:
> Yes, we will begin with 5,4,3 star as priority..... Suzanne



SO, What happens to an SVN owner that makes a reservation at the 8 month window using StarOptions?  Will he get and Island View, Ocean View, or Ocean Front View?  I don't think that the "Upgrade Policy" or "No Policy" makes any sense now?  Will they tell you what you get when you make your StarOption reservation?  They did before.  Or will they hold this back and allocate at check-in (for 8 month window StarOption traders)?  IF so, then there will be lots of rooms and views available for 5*'s!!!  Or, do upgrades only apply to a Studio to a 1 BR?  What is the "View" upgrade policy and how does it differ from the room size?


----------



## pharmgirl

I really wish we could know when making reservation what view we will have - even if later than the "owner window".  We have flexibility and I would not reserve unless I could have ocean view (which we own) or ocean front (upgrade!).  Its a long trip and I don't want to be surprised with island view if I can't make early reservations.  I'd rather change the week to get what I bought and want


----------



## Westin5Star

duke said:


> SO, What happens to an SVN owner that makes a reservation at the 8 month window using StarOptions?  Will he get and Island View, Ocean View, or Ocean Front View?  I don't think that the "Upgrade Policy" or "No Policy" makes any sense now?  Will they tell you what you get when you make your StarOption reservation?  They did before.  Or will they hold this back and allocate at check-in (for 8 month window StarOption traders)?  IF so, then there will be lots of rooms and views available for 5*'s!!!  Or, do upgrades only apply to a Studio to a 1 BR?  What is the "View" upgrade policy and how does it differ from the room size?



My understanding of this is that if an SVN owner reserves at 8 months then they will most likely get a Island View (especially if Elite owners are also trading in).  If that SVN owner is 5, 4, or 3* Elite (in that order) then they will have a very good chance at an upgraded view and / or room size (ie studio to 1BR) depending on what is available.  I could be wrong on this but this is as I understand it.


----------



## Westin5Star

Darlene had a great idea to send a gift to Suzanne for her assistance in bringing back Elite upgrades at checkin.  By Darlene's suggestion (and coupon code), we sent Suzanne a "Thank You" cookie gift basket on behalf of all TUGGERS!  Thank you again Darlene for your help on this!


----------



## nodge

*Elite upgrades may be back by my trust in SVO isn't*



SVO Management said:


> While we are not going to communicate the villa upgrade as a promised benefit, we have put the process in place to surprise and delight our Elite owners and automatically upgrade you when available.



If this benefit has indeed been returned, why would Starwood NOT want to communicate this fact to its elite owners? 

The notice could go something like this:

. . .

Dear Elite Owner,

You know how we induced you to buy your new developer unit with the promise that we would give you free room upgrades in the future, if available, and then a couple of months ago arbitrarily and without any advance notice just up and cancelled that benefit?  Well, I’m pleased to secretly (shhhh don’t tell anyone) inform you that at least for now we have sort-of returned that benefit subject to the following changes:

Our original promise was to give you notice of the upgrade ahead of time (30 days for 3 star elites, 60 days for 4 star elites, etc.) so you could plan your trip accordingly.  For example, if you traveled off season you would know ahead of time that you only needed to use enough StarOptions for a small one bedroom, but would still be guaranteed a large one-bedroom unit on arrival.  

We have dumped that whole advance notice thing because it takes way too much of our reservation agents’ time dealing with your requests over the phone, thereby taking away from their ability to make telemarketing calls for us on your nickel. 

Accordingly, our new policy is that if a better villa is available on check-in and no-one else is entitled to it, we’ll give it to you rather than have it go unused.  Sure, this is a basic common sense policy, but it still took us a couple of months to get around to adopting it, and we just wanted to annoy you these past few months first.

We know that your expectations of us are so low that you will be surprised and delighted with this new, super secret, change.  Moreover, please delete this email because we don’t want to formally communicate this new, super secret, change.  We would rather have you only know about the change that cancelled this benefit outright, but we really didn’t (remember, mums the word . . . ..)

Please send your “Thank-You” cookies to the following address .  . ..

Sincerely,
SVO Management, Inc.

. . .

I’m guessing that SVO’s legal department proposed this “solution.” 

You can almost hear the testimony now . . . ..“We didn’t cancel a benefit that we used to induce new sales, we simply modified the implementation of that benefit to make it more manageable . . . ..” 

-nodge


----------



## Westin5Star

Nodge,
I love your funny posts.  There is alot of truth in what you write.  

I am very excited to have the upgrades back at all; it beats not having any chance at an upgrade.  I wanted to get to 5* almost exclusively so that I could often turn my studio into a 1BR (for instance I would split LO for 2 consecutive weeks and hope for 2 weeks in a 1BR).  I knew that sometimes it would get it and sometimes I wouldn't but it would not have changed my travel plans.  I do understand being able to use less StarOptions so of course I would rather that they still tell me ahead of time.  

BRING BACK NOTIFYING US AHEAD OF TIME FOR UPGRADES- In the meantime, thank you for bringing back upgrades at all!


----------



## duke

Nodge:  Outstanding!


----------



## Negma

Nodge: Great post. But I just intercepted this internal memo, sorry:

To SVO Management;

     The poster known as nodge is now on double secret probation.

Signed

Loving legal dept.


----------



## nodge

Negma said:


> Nodge: Great post. But I just intercepted this internal memo, sorry:
> 
> To SVO Management;
> 
> The poster known as nodge is now on double secret probation.
> 
> Signed
> 
> Loving legal dept.



I'm not worried. SVO would need some sort of internal communication and tracking system to actually enforce it.  If they had those systems, I guess they could give me lousy rooms or deny my StarOption reservation requests in retaliation.

Hey wait a minute . . . ..

I need to get back in SVO's good graces pronto.  Do you think Suzzane would like a nice TUG luggage tag?  I'd get her a set, but know that most people only need one.

-nodge


----------



## DavidnRobin

very, very funny.

i will donate my luggage tag...


----------



## DavidnRobin

So - I can pay the ~$2000 MFs and convert WPORV usage for 86K StarPoints... such a deal - do I get a luggage tag also?

*****
Dear DAVID, 

Congratulations on your decision to purchase with Starwood Vacation Ownership. Because we are excited to have you as a member of the Starwood family, we are delighted to present you with the following exciting opportunity. 

Your membership in Starwood Vacation NetworkSM provides you with countless travel options. Even before you have the opportunity to visit your Home Resort, you can make the most of your membership through this Starwood Preferred Guest® promotion.  

Available exclusively to new Owners who have not yet enjoyed occupancy rights at their Home Resort, this Starwood Preferred Guest promotion can help you enjoy one of the cornerstones of Starwood Vacation Network. With payment of a usage fee, you can receive the converted value of your ownership week in Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints®, allowing you to travel to Starwood hotels and resorts around the world. These Starpoints will be available for your use for six years from the date of deposit. 

Starwood Preferred Guest offers extraordinary experiences, rewards and recognition wherever your travels take you. Enjoy flexible reward options with distinguished Starwood brands, airline programs and various merchandise partners—as well as the exclusive benefit of no blackout dates on Free Night Awards. 

Although this promotion is available until December 31 of the year prior to your occupancy, you may contact us anytime to take advantage of this valuable offer. For more information, please contact Owner Services toll free at 888.619.2988, Monday through Friday from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m., Eastern time.

Sincerely, 
Suzanne Clark 
Vice President 
Owner Services
*****


----------



## Henry M.

I think the fee for Starpoints before your usage years is around $1,600. That's less than $0.02/Starpoint. Not a great deal, but not completely unreasonable. It is quite as bad as exchanging your villa for points.


----------



## nodge

Suzanne Clarke's Welcome E-Mail said:


> Congratulations on your decision to purchase with Starwood Vacation Ownership. Because we are excited to have you as a member of the Starwood family, we are delighted to present you with the following exciting opportunity.
> 
> ...
> 
> Sincerely,
> Suzanne Clark
> Vice President
> Owner Services  (pronounced "Owner Leveraging Services")
> *****




That is indeed an “exciting opportunity.”

Speaking of which, I’m surprised Suzanne is using the clichéd term “exciting opportunity” in her email.  If my weekly unsolicited e-mail marketing promotions from SVO are any indicator,  “surprise and delight” is the new “exciting opportunity” of today. In a rare case, SVO also makes do with “extraordinary opportunity,” but its use is limited to particularly bad deals like $27,000 African Safaris.

In light of this, I think that it is safe to assume that Suzanne may have not personally written that notice to you.  She’s way too up on the current marketing buzzwords to have let that slip by.

-nodge


----------



## Ekaaj

Nodge, you make life so much more interesting.


----------

