# Soliciting unhappy WKORV-N OF owners



## LisaRex (Apr 7, 2008)

I had a lengthy discussion with a timeshare agent today because I was interested in selling my WKORV-N villa.  I truly believe that we OF owners  have been duped into paying top dollar for a villa that is coded as OF, which according to common industry standards, should have been coded as OV or even IV.  The agent said that EVERY OF north owner she has spoken to is unhappy with the crappy view they were given. 

Because the word is out that north OF views are not really OF, the price that OF units at north can command have fallen.  One was recently listed in the low 40's and she said that she hasn't had ONE person ask for the north property. OF prices at the original location, on the other hand, have remained steady.

I'm not a lawyer, but I am convinced that we OF owners have an open-and-shut case against Starwood for misrepresentation vis a vis their view designation.  I have combed over the owner agreement and nowhere in the document does Starwood modify the meaning for what is a widely understood term "Ocean front" which is an "unimpeded 180 degree view of the ocean." That is what we paid for and that is what we should get.  

When I went to buy, I did my due diligence and called Starwood to confirm that the unit being sold was listed as OF, which they did.  At the time, I asked them to e-mail me a map of the property, which the agent said was not available.  I asked her to mail me a hard copy; again she claimed they simply didn't exist.  So I used the WKORV property map as reference and was satisfied with the OF designation.  Had I known then that the unit I was purchasing (my deeded unit is 5515/16) was located far back from the ocean, overlooking the pool and facing another building, I would not have bought it. _Starwood misrepresented this villa by giving it an OF designation, where every other hotel/timeshare would have designated it as OV. _  I'm sure a jury would agree. 

I am prepared right now to draft a letter to them expressing my unhappiness.  But there is more strength in many voices, so I'm soliciting other owners to join me.  To be clear, if I don't get an answer to my satisfaction, I am absolutely prepared to begin a class action lawsuit against them. 

A friend of mine is a paralegal for Cincinnati attorney Stan Chesley, who was one of the key players in the recent Phen/Fen settlement. He also negotiated the settlement against Dow for the saline breast implants.  I'm going to ask her if one of the attorneys in her office would be willing to take this case.

If you're interested in joining me on my crusade against Starwood, please send me a PM with your name and address.  If any agents would like to refer unhappy owners to this thread, I'd appreciate it, too. 

I'm not sue happy, far from it, but I really do believe we've been wronged here.  And I really doubt that Starwood will provide a remedy unless or until they feel it is in THEIR best interest to do so.  So let's give them an incentive to correct their wrong. 

Lisa
Cincinnati, OH


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## SDKath (Apr 7, 2008)

FYI, OF at WKORV is going for $45,000 and OF delux for $50-52,000.

But I completely agree with you about the false labeling of those units.

K


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## nodge (Apr 7, 2008)

Go Get 'em Lisa!

Almost makes me want to buy a developer WKORV-N OF just to be part of it.

If your attorney is looking to expand the plaintiff class a lot, I've got a few other well documented SVO "misrepresentations' worth considering. 

One downside I see in all of this is that class action attorneys tend to negotiate settlements that allow them to recover their huge fees, while the victims all end up with two-for-one movie coupons or the like.  

Also, in our case, what's to stop our friends at SVO from rolling any attorneys' fees and settlements that they end up paying into their "operating costs" and thereby essentially forcing us owners to pay SVO's bills for all of this?

A better solution, at least initially, may be to file a formal Complaint (in Florida, Hawaii, and in your home state) with the Attorney Generals/Real Estate Commission, etc. in each state.  Attorney Generals/REC's can't litigate disputes between parties, but they CAN pull SVO's licenses to sell timeshares in those states if SVO has or is currently practicing deceptive sales techniques.  SVO would bend over backwards to a group of wronged owners if its licenses to sell timeshares were at risk. (Also, the more complaints each AG/REC's gets, the more likely the AG/REC’s will investigate and take action.)

Also, remember there is a Statute of Limitations to bring tort, contract, and other claims against a defendant.  These SOL’s vary by state and (at least here in Oregon, type of) claim, so time is of the essence.  Filing complaints with the AG’/RECs won’t toll the SOL, so make sure to discuss this issue with your attorney (and docket that deadline!). 

Good Luck!

-nodge

Here is a good starting point for Hawaii.  (Here is a link to the forms (click on "Real Estate Complaint Form" from the window that opens))
Click here and enter:  "Starwood"  "SVO" "Westin" and anything else you can think of to try to figure out how many other complaints are pending against the collection of shifting corporate names that is globally known to us as Starwood Vacation Ownership.

Here is a good starting point for Florida.  Here is a link to the Florida Complaint form.

Without any data to back this up, I tend to think that Hawaii would be tougher on SVO than Florida.  Hawaii isn't as welcoming as Florida to timeshares, and I suspect Florida has a much stronger and richer timeshare lobby supporting the Florida legislature.


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## Lawlar (Apr 7, 2008)

*File Complaint With BBB*



LisaRex said:


> I'm not a lawyer, but I am convinced that we OF owners have an open-and-shut case against Starwood for misrepresentation vis a vis their view designation.  I have combed over the owner agreement and nowhere in the document does Starwood modify the meaning for what is a widely understood term "Ocean front" which is an "unimpeded 180 degree view of the ocean." That is what we paid for and that is what we should get.
> 
> When I went to buy, I did my due diligence and called Starwood to confirm that the unit being sold was listed as OF, which they did.  At the time, I asked them to e-mail me a map of the property, which the agent said was not available.  I asked her to mail me a hard copy; again she claimed they simply didn't exist.  So I used the WKORV property map as reference and was satisfied with the OF designation.  Had I known then that the unit I was purchasing (my deeded unit is 5515/16) was located far back from the ocean, overlooking the pool and facing another building, I would not have bought it. _Starwood misrepresented this villa by giving it an OF designation, where every other hotel/timeshare would have designated it as OV. _  I'm sure a jury would agree.
> 
> ...



I would suggest that you consider filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.  A lot of companies will bend over backwards to settle with you in order to avoid having an unresolved complaint on their record with the BBB.  If there are others who feel aggreived, they should also file with the BBB.  

Filing a complaint with the BBB may get you a prompt resolution without the expense, delays and uncertainty of litigation.  Also, you get the satisfaction of putting a black mark on Starwood's record as a warning to others. If the BBB doesn't resolve the dispute for you then you can still sue.

By the way, when did you first discover that your view was different than what the rep told you to expect?  It helps if you are taking prompt action as soon as you discover the misrepresentation.  It doesn't help if you have stayed there several times without complaining.


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 7, 2008)

SDKath said:


> FYI, OF at WKORV is going for $45,000 and OF delux for $50-52,000.
> 
> But I completely agree with you about the false labeling of those units.
> 
> K



Did you mean OF at *WKORVN *is going for $45K resale?  Certainly the center OF units at WKORV are not selling for $45K...

Go getem' LisaRex.  I rescinded OF WKORVN partially because I found out that WKORV was true OF - while WKORVN was angled (and of course the outrageous price...).  Glad I did - now if I only spent $5K less for our resale OF.

I think the lawsulit should also cover the inability for Owners to comunicate with one another which leads to a HOA board that turn out to be SVO shills.

And that money received via SVO rentals does not go back to the resort's budget - offsetting out ever increasing MFs.


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## myip (Apr 7, 2008)

Lawlar said:


> I would suggest that you consider filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.  A lot of companies will bend over backwards to settle with you in order to avoid having an unresolved complaint on their record with the BBB.  If there are others who feel aggreived, they should also file with the BBB.
> 
> Filing a complaint with the BBB may get you a prompt resolution without the expense, delays and uncertainty of litigation.  Also, you get the satisfaction of putting a black mark on Starwood's record as a warning to others. If the BBB doesn't resolve the dispute for you then you can still sue.
> 
> By the way, when did you first discover that your view was different than what the rep told you to expect?  It helps if you are taking prompt action as soon as you discover the misrepresentation.  It doesn't help if you have stayed there several times without complaining.



Forget about BBB. They are useless... It just waste my time when I file a complain to BBB. Starwood consumer  affair will look at the problem and just restated what the contract say.  You really need a lawyer to deal with Starwood.


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## LisaRex (Apr 7, 2008)

Lawlar said:


> By the way, when did you first discover that your view was different than what the rep told you to expect?  It helps if you are taking prompt action as soon as you discover the misrepresentation.  It doesn't help if you have stayed there several times without complaining.



I haven't stayed there yet.  But I've read complaints from several OF owners who called within the home resort booking period and were given villas that every other hotel would have called OV.   And when I saw the map that they finally released a month or so ago, I was shocked at what villas they coded as OF.  They are NOT unimpeded views.  I paid a huge premium to buy ocean front so I wouldn't have to stress over what view I was going to get.  

The agent I spoke to said that I could probably wait a year or two because once the people who paid $90k for their "ocean front" villas get to see what view they get, they'll put pressure on Starwood to correct the situation.  After all, if they have $90k to burn on a timeshare, they'd have no problem paying $10k to sic a lawyer on Starwood.


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## SDKath (Apr 7, 2008)

DavidnRobin said:


> Did you mean OF at *WKORVN *is going for $45K resale?  Certainly the center OF units at WKORV are not selling for $45K....



Yes, the center OF units at WKORV (South) are $45,000.    At least I found 2 or 3 for that price.  I agree that the North property is taking a hit for their supposed OF units, which many realize are really not the type of OF that most of us are talking about. Then again, neither are the center OF ones of WKORV-S.  The only TRUE OF units in my book are the lovely delux units at the end of the buildings on WKORV.  That's what I would call OF!

Katherine


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## Lawlar (Apr 7, 2008)

*BBB*



myip said:


> Forget about BBB. They are useless... It just waste my time when I file a complain to BBB. Starwood consumer  affair will look at the problem and just restated what the contract say.  You really need a lawyer to deal with Starwood.



I am a lawyer.  A pretty good one (but retired).

The BBB put a lot of pressure on some of my business clients when their salemen misbehaved.  Most of my clients were anxious to maintain a good rating with the BBB so we resolved those complaints quickly.  Also, the BBB has, in some cases, notified attorney generals about companies that were generating numerous consumer complaints. [I think one of my clients went to jail as a result of a BBB complaint to an attorney general.]

We recently had a problem with a car dealer.  My lawyer letter didn't have any effect.  But as soon as I reported the matter to the BBB the manager of the dealership called me and apologized and corrected the problem (he claimed he never received my letter - sure).    

The BBB isn't perfect.  But it is worth the effort.  It is just one more remedy (and an inexpensive one). If the BBB gets a lot of consumer complaints about Starwood I believe that would result in the BBB notifying the authorities that something drastic should be done to end the fraudulent representations.


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## fran (Apr 8, 2008)

Lisa,

We also purchased OF in good faith from the developer based on certain representations.  I'll e-mail my name and address to you.

Fran


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## DeniseM (Apr 8, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Then again, neither are the center OF ones of WKORV-S.  The only TRUE OF units in my book are the lovely delux units at the end of the buildings on WKORV.  That's what I would call OF!
> 
> Katherine



You're confusing me...   (Not particularly hard to do.)  

Are you just saying that you _prefer_ the deluxe OF units on the corners, because the center units certainly are true OF?


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## Ken555 (Apr 8, 2008)

LisaRex,

I think you've got the right idea. Show them you mean business, and are prepared to go to court. 

The BBB is somewhat useless - at least in my area - but it doesn't hurt to file a complaint with them against Starwood. It would show your intentions when you involve the lawyers. 

And I definitely agree that the State Attorney General's office should be notified.

I wish you the best of luck on this. When I visited WKORVN last year I was startled to find how poor the view would be from the front units. My island view was fantastic (great view of ocean) and I was thrilled. But had I paid for ocean front I would be as pissed as you must be. 

We're behind you!


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## mepiccolo (Apr 8, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> You're confusing me...   (Not particularly hard to do.)
> 
> Are you just saying that you _prefer_ the deluxe OF units on the corners, because the center units certainly are true OF?



We own OF Center and personally preferred it over the OF deluxe because both lanais were true OF as opposed to the OF deluxe units which has the studio lanais facing to the side, more like an OV.  It has a superb view, of course, but I too am confused by the comment since both units OF center are true OF views.  We're thrilled with our views and feel really bad for the WKORV North OF purchasers.  When we were on vacation last year while the north side was still being built we noticed that the OF units faced at an angle towards viewing the WKORV buildings and we had an idea even back then that there was going to be a lot of unhappy purchasers at WKORV north.  Good luck with your claim against Starwood.  If I was on the jury I would vote in your favor.


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## LisaRex (Apr 8, 2008)

mepiccolo said:


> When we were on vacation last year while the north side was still being built we noticed that the OF units faced at an angle towards viewing the WKORV buildings and we had an idea even back then that there was going to be a lot of unhappy purchasers at WKORV north.  Good luck with your claim against Starwood.  If I was on the jury I would vote in your favor.



Thanks for your support.  I do appreciate it. 

It's not just the angled view that bothers me.  I could put up with that.  It's that some of the units don't get direct views of the ocean that bothers me.  If you look at the map linked below and look closesly, you'll see the unit numbers that are in white. Now look at Building 5.  Believe it or not, not only are the units marked 09, 10, 11 and 12 coded OF by Starwood (which is stretching it, IMO), but the units marked 13, 14, 15, and 16 are coded by Starwood as OF!! In fact 5515/16 is my deeded unit.  There is no WAY that any hotel in the world could get away with calling a unit that overlooked a pool area and whose direct line of sight was another BUILDING an OF unit.  And one poster, who had a timestamp of 9, was recently assigned 5513/14 or 5515/16.  He had no water in his view.  

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=472617&postcount=19

One of the scrolling pictures of WKORV from this link shows the OF units of the south property. 

http://www.starwoodvacationownership.com/westin_kaanapali_ocean_resort_villas/welcome.jsp

The OF units there are all parallel to the water line and get a direct view of the water except the lower floors which get a lovely view of foliage.   Starwood designates them as OF, which is, IMO a true OF.


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 8, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Yes, the center OF units at WKORV (South) are $45,000.    At least I found 2 or 3 for that price.  I agree that the North property is taking a hit for their supposed OF units, which many realize are really not the type of OF that most of us are talking about. Then again, neither are the center OF ones of WKORV-S.  The only TRUE OF units in my book are the lovely delux units at the end of the buildings on WKORV.  That's what I would call OF!
> 
> Katherine


Not intended to derail this thread on a tangent, but what is the source for these $45K WKORV center OFs?  I admit that I do not search like I used to, but I never seem to come across them when I did.

Also - the center units are true OF (with the studio lanai also facing the ocean) how could they not be?


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 8, 2008)

Photo of OF units at WKORV (B2) and WKORVN (B5) from beach walk between the resorts.  Shows both the Dlx and (partially) the studio-side of the center OF units at WKORV, and the best OF villas at WKORVN





Photo of the offending OF units (B5) from beach - in the back


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## LisaRex (Apr 8, 2008)

thanks for the pictures, David. 

Lisa


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 8, 2008)

No problem - wish I had better photos.
I agree that there is no way units 13-16 in B5 could be considered OF.


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## califgal (Apr 8, 2008)

I saw an ad on My Resort Network for WKORV for oceanfront resale at $45,000, I think it still might be there, one person had a few weeks to sell.


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## timeos2 (Apr 8, 2008)

*Heck, make it $100K*



califgal said:


> I saw an ad on My Resort Network for WKORV for oceanfront resale at $45,000, I think it still might be there, one person had a few weeks to sell.



I've seen Wastegate VV listed for $25,000 - but that sure doesn't mean anyone would pay it!  Listing price means nothing.


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## DeniseM (Apr 8, 2008)

timeos2 said:


> I've seen Wastegate VV listed for $25,000 - but that sure doesn't mean anyone would pay it!  Listing price means nothing.



John - believe it or not, we are talking about $45K because it's the LOWEST price for these OF units that we've seen.  These full ocean front units are just about as close to the water as you will get in Hawaii - I wish I owned one!


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## mepiccolo (Apr 8, 2008)

I remember when we were looking at Westin ads that several ads misleadingly stated "oceanfront" but what they meant was that the WKORV resort was ocean front - not the specific unit that they were selling.  I wonder if the ad for $45,000 for OF was such an ad because I've never seen an actual OF unit at WKORV go that low.  Just a thought.


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## SDKath (Apr 8, 2008)

We almost bought 2 for $45,000 OF at the South property.  ANd we were almost in escrow for a OF delux for $51,000 last month until we changed our mind.  There are some listed right now on some of the common resale websites for that amount.  PM me if you want the sellers' names.  Don't want to make Denise mad.  

Katherine


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## DeniseM (Apr 8, 2008)

SDKath said:


> PM me if you want the sellers' names.  Don't want to make Denise mad.
> 
> Katherine



That's right!  :annoyed:   Don't forget who 'ur messin' with, Lady!  :hysterical:

Actually, unless you, or your friend, or David's friend, are selling these units  feel free to post the info. here!

Think I could swap my WKORV OV unit for one of these?  I DID pay 45K for it - seems FAIR to me!


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## SDKath (Apr 8, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> That's right!  Don't forget who 'ur messin' with, Lady!  :hysterical:
> 
> Actually, unless you, or your friend, or David's friend, are selling these units  feel free to post the info. here!
> 
> Think I could swap my WKORV OV unit for one of these?  I DID pay 45K for it - seems FAIR to me!



Yeah, you can swap it "upgrade it" with Starwood.  The only catch: they are charging $104,000 for it.   

You can sell your OF for about $33,000 and then buy the OF for the above price.  Then the difference is only about $15,000, not $60,000!

I bet prices will go down more too.  The sellers who I spoke to were selling ebcause of major financial reasons and their inability to sustain the high payments for their luxury vacation unit.  It's actually pretty sad and I felt bad for them.  But when people find themselves downsizing, I think their OF condo in Hawaii is one of the first to go.

One seller bought their OF delux for $75,000 less than 3 years ago.  He was taking a $25,000 finacial loss.   

K


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## DeniseM (Apr 8, 2008)

SDKath said:


> You can sell your OV for about $33,000 and then buy the OF for the above price.  Then the difference is only about $15,000, not $60,000!



Don't tempt me!


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 8, 2008)

LisaRex - I am sorry to have brought this up and derailing the thread - I knew I shouldn't discuss a tangental issue.

If true - and those were OF center at WKORV - then a very good price for those reccession proof people.  but I am a born skeptic about certain things (e.g. seeing deeded unit #s...). No doubt that the economy is pushing down TS prices (ALL OVER)...

Yes - John - there are us freaks who pay a premium for certain things (right or wrong) and we have zero regrets.  Just think... you can have 50 TSs for this price...

and... If I were a seller - I would sure hope that TUG picked it up and discussed my VOIs for sale, because that is okay...  
{and don't get me started about the LMR forum...}


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 8, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> Don't tempt me!



You can do it!!! except $33K is being generous  

For $45K - the centerfront OF units can be turned into a positive investment (yes, I said investment...) if you want to spend the effort... (and $$$)


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## califgal (Apr 8, 2008)

I'd love to buy one of those OF offered at $45K, but my husband is the conservative one!  Unfortunatley ( for sellers), I do think prices will still go down, this credit mess isn't over, so we'll wait and see...


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## califgal (Apr 8, 2008)

> For $45K - the centerfront OF units can be turned into a positive investment (yes, I said investment...) if you want to spend the effort... (and $$$)
> April 8, 2008 09:44 PM



You mean in renting it out, right?


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## Fredm (Apr 9, 2008)

califgal said:


> I saw an ad on My Resort Network for WKORV for oceanfront resale at $45,000, I think it still might be there, one person had a few weeks to sell.



Well, I inquired about a purchase and did not get a reply.


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## califgal (Apr 9, 2008)

A few months ago when I first saw the ad I inquired as well. I did get a response and at the time it was available.


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## Fredm (Apr 9, 2008)

califgal said:


> I'd love to buy one of those OF offered at $45K, but my husband is the conservative one!  Unfortunatley ( for sellers), I do think prices will still go down, this credit mess isn't over, so we'll wait and see...



While prices in general are softening, I can offer some upbeat news.
Ocean-front center and deluxe prices at KOR are firming and ticking up.  
In part because the North ocean fronts do not pose direct competition, for reasons mentioned in this thread.

Meanwhile, OV and IV prices at KOR continue to soften because the North units offer better views in these view categories.

Demand definitely shifts to the best view for the price.


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## vacationtime1 (Apr 9, 2008)

califgal said:


> A few months ago when I first saw the ad I inquired as well. I did get a response and at the time it was available.



Likewise.  She said she had five of them . . . .


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 9, 2008)

califgal said:


> You mean in renting it out, right?



Yes - by renting them out, but I am sure there are much better investments out there with less effort.

Did the person selling these OFs - give you the deeded unit numbers?
or just say these were OF? {my skeptical side}  Too often I have seen OFs claimed, but turned out there were interpreting WKORV as an OF resort {quite different}

Would SVO use their ROFR at this price?

Fredm has been selling these units - he probably has the best read on prices.


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## califgal (Apr 9, 2008)

We only look at WKORV as enjoyment not investment.  But to answer your question David, I did not go as far as asking for the deeded unit #'s.  I am skeptical too.


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## Fredm (Apr 10, 2008)

> *Did the person selling these OFs - give you the deeded unit numbers?
> or just say these were OF? {my skeptical side} Too often I have seen OFs claimed, but turned out there were interpreting WKORV as an OF resort {quite different}
> 
> Would SVO use their ROFR at this price?
> ...


I do not believe Starwood would exercise its ROFR at 45, or anything close to it. As long as they have inventory to sell, that is where their interests lie.

ROFR is not a means of setting a floor under the market price.
While it may be counter-intuitive to some, an active ROFR program has the overall effect of softening price, not supporting it. 
A buy-back program, on the other hand, would support the price. 

Regarding secondary market prices, it is important to recognize that the market for ocean-front at KOR is thin. It does not take much to move price either way. 

Our view of the current market: a fair buy price is 51-52 for oceanfront standard, and 55-56 for deluxe. This is up about 8% in the past 12 months. Inventory remains scarce, with buy orders waiting to be filled. Trend, therefore, remains up.

Ocean front fixed weeks 51 and 52 are 65k and 72k. 

Sure, those that have the time, and enjoy the adventure of bottom fishing, can probably buy for a bit less. I am referring to the rational market where both sellers and buyers receive fair value and professional service, without adventure.


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## califgal (Apr 11, 2008)

Thanks for the info Fred.  I appreciate your insight.


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## MON2REY (Apr 17, 2008)

Here's a view of WKORV-N Ocean Front Bldgs 5 & 8.


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## ciscogizmo1 (Apr 17, 2008)

Great picture... looks so nice... I wanna go swimming...

It does kinda look like nobody really has a great view with all those trees.


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## LisaRex (Apr 17, 2008)

Agreed.  It'll be interesting to see what Starwood does with their views.  I spoke to Suzanne Clark a few days ago and she promised a view study at both properties soon.  

Thanks for the pictures, Jim.


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## clsmit (Apr 17, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> Agreed.  It'll be interesting to see what Starwood does with their views.  I spoke to Suzanne Clark a few days ago and she promised a view study at both properties soon.



Did you volunteer to be the focus group for the study? And can others of us help as well? I've never been there so my opinion would be unbiased. And then we can all come back 2 months later, after they've trimmed the trees or whatever, to see if it meets our expectations as a consumer.....


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## LisaRex (Apr 19, 2008)

clsmit said:


> Did you volunteer to be the focus group for the study? And can others of us help as well? I've never been there so my opinion would be unbiased. And then we can all come back 2 months later, after they've trimmed the trees or whatever, to see if it meets our expectations as a consumer.....



I spoke to her about my valid concerns about the views at this property.  She was aware of the issues and promised a view study.  She said that this was to be done this week and promised to get back with me, personally, after the study was completed.  She didn't say what they were going to do with the view study, so I'm going to see what she says before I decide what I'm going to do.  

Do I want to hire an attorney to fight this? No, not really. But someone has to fight them on this because I honestly believe that they are in the wrong here.  There is no comparison between the OF views at the north and south properties.  And some of the views are most definitely not OF.   In reality, only the four front sections should have been coded OF, IMO.  The second stack is pushing the OF designation.  Coding the third stack is a joke, except I'm not laughing. 

I'm not sure what others can do to help, except complain.  However, if you're not an OF owner, legally you have no standing.  At this time I'd like all north OF owners to voice their complaint.  They most certainly won't correct the situation if no one complains.   

I do appreciate your support, though. Thank you.


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## Ken555 (Apr 19, 2008)

It would be outstanding if you were to somehow get a copy of that report, for your own use. I'm sure that's already one of your immediate objectives.


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## fran (Apr 19, 2008)

*View Study*

Lisa,

If the OF units are truly sold out, what good does a view study do now?  If they decrease the number of OF units, doesn't that mean they have effectively oversold OF?  Is Starwood prepared to reimburse those owners the difference between OF and OV?  The thought of litigation makes me nauseous, but we are fully prepared to join in on a class-action lawsuit if this is not resolved (preferably before our vacation in July).

Fran

P.S.  Where can I find a copy of site map which shows the views?


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## LisaRex (Apr 19, 2008)

fran said:


> Lisa,
> 
> If the OF units are truly sold out, what good does a view study do now?  If they decrease the number of OF units, doesn't that mean they have effectively oversold OF?  Is Starwood prepared to reimburse those owners the difference between OF and OV?  The thought of litigation makes me nauseous, but we are fully prepared to join in on a class-action lawsuit if this is not resolved (preferably before our vacation in July).
> 
> ...



I don't know what, if anything, Starwood is prepared to do.  However I'd probably sue for specific performance -- either to give me true OF views or to buy back my villa. 

The view map is here. 

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=472617&postcount=19


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## SDKath (Apr 19, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> I don't know what, if anything, Starwood is prepared to do.  However I'd probably sue for specific performance -- either to give me true OF views or to buy back my villa.
> 
> The view map is here.
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=472617&postcount=19



I am not a lawyer but I think you would have good case for that.  If they can't deliver the product they offered and charged you for, isn't that false advertising/misrepresentation?  Someone who does real estate law should jump in here.  I would be really upset if I had one of those back units during my "OF" week.   

Katherine


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## DeniseM (Apr 19, 2008)

I just made that map bigger and posted a link to it in Owner Resources.


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## SDKath (Apr 19, 2008)

Denise,

Do you have the WKORV map for comparison?  Along with the building numbers?  Can we make that a sticky too.

Katherine


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## saluki (Apr 19, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> I just made that map bigger and posted a link to it in Owner Resources.



Denise-

Thanks for enlarging the map - MUCH easier to read. The total in the owner resource link says "Princeville" though - vs. WKORV-N.


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## nodge (Apr 19, 2008)

Thanks for posting the map.  Was this distributed to new WKORV-N owners around the time of their purchase?  

That "river pool" looks wonderful.  I bet it's even nicer in person ;-)

Does WKORV-N provide innertubes to ride in like at the WKV's lazy river (at the adjacent Westin Kierland hotel) which surprisingly enough is also labeled "river pool" when on resort?  

Suzanne (and Lisa's attorney) might want to "study" that issue too.

-nodge


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## DeniseM (Apr 19, 2008)

saluki said:


> Denise-
> 
> Thanks for enlarging the map - MUCH easier to read. The total in the owner resource *link says "Princeville" though* - vs. WKORV-N.



That was a seriously bad blonde moment!   - Fixed it!


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## DeniseM (Apr 19, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Denise,
> 
> Do you have the WKORV map for comparison?  Along with the building numbers?  Can we make that a sticky too.
> 
> Katherine



I don't have one that shows units - but if anyone else has one, please send me a copy.


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## pointsjunkie (Apr 20, 2008)

would they be allowed to replant all the trees and put in low hedges so then you would all have the ocean front you paid for and were promised? i don't know hawaii rules about transplanting trees.


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## LisaRex (Apr 20, 2008)

pointsjunkie said:


> would they be allowed to replant all the trees and put in low hedges so then you would all have the ocean front you paid for and were promised? i don't know hawaii rules about transplanting trees.



Apparently they are only allowed to prune back the trees twice a year.  I take that to mean that they wouldn't be allowed to remove them either.


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## DeniseM (Apr 20, 2008)

pointsjunkie said:


> would they be allowed to replant all the trees and put in low hedges so then you would all have the ocean front you paid for and were promised? i don't know hawaii rules about transplanting trees.



No, they are not allowed to do that - I asked this question at a BOD meeting.  All beaches in Hawaii are public property and the trees are on the publicly owned set-back, so the resort can't do anything to them without permission from the state.  Also, the trees are considered "historical," for some reason.  

The trees in front of the WKORV are trimmed so far back that they are skeletal, so I imagine that the trees in front of WKORVN will get a severe haircut, too.  They are Kaiwe Trees, which have long sharp thorns and are not a great tree to have on the beach!  They are not native to Hawaii, and legend has it that the missionaries planted them to make the Hawaiians wear shoes.  I don't know if it's true, but I've been told that several times.


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## MON2REY (Apr 21, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> I spoke to her about my valid concerns about the views at this property.  She was aware of the issues and promised a view study.  She said that this was to be done this week and promised to get back with me, personally, after the study was completed.  She didn't say what they were going to do with the view study, so I'm going to see what she says before I decide what I'm going to do.



Lisa, I don't want you to think that I bailed on you.  As I mentioned several weeks ago, I wrote a lengthy letter to Suzanne Clark regarding my disappointing stay in the OF unit in March.  In the letter I spelled out my disgust with the OF unit designations, the view obstruction caused by the trees, and the reservation system (I also mentioned some other relatively minor items).  About ten days ago I received a letter from Carla Smith, Director of Consumer Affairs at SVO.  Apparently Suzanne forwarded my letter to her.  Anyway, to sum up her response, she was sorry that we had a less than desireable stay but offered no ideas for how it could be corrected for the future.  I then emailed her back asking for specific corrections that will be implemented so that this situation does not happen again to any OF owners.  That was a week ago and I haven't received a response yet.


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## Cathyb (Apr 21, 2008)

Lisa: More power to you!  I hope you do take them to the Courts!!! Starwood sold us a property (WMH) and two years later designated it Voluntary (not Mandatory) -- which never existed when we bought it before ground was broken.  Now when our property passes on to our kids when we die, they will not have the privilege of trading within the SVN system -- which is the main reason we bought Starwood in the first place (trading to top Starwood places).  It also cost us the ability for our property to appreciate 

Starwood is solely interested in SELLING timeshares and cares less about the owners that bought them -- I am seeing more and more of that with unhappy Tuggers reporting - like you and me.


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## DeniseM (Apr 21, 2008)

Cathyb said:


> Lisa: More power to you!  I hope you do take them to the Courts!!! Starwood sold us a property (WMH) and two years later designated it Voluntary (not Mandatory) -- which never existed when we bought it before ground was broken.  *Now when our property passes on to our kids when we die, they will not have the privilege of trading within the SVN system -- which is the main reason we bought Starwood in the first place (trading to top Starwood places).  It also cost us the ability for our property to appreciate *
> Starwood is solely interested in SELLING timeshares and cares less about the owners that bought them -- I am seeing more and more of that with unhappy Tuggers reporting - like you and me.



Cathy - I believe that all rights will transfer with inheritance, just not when you sell it.  Has someone told you otherwise?


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## grgs (Apr 21, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> Cathy - I believe that all rights will transfer with inheritance, just not when you sell it.  Has someone told you otherwise?



I believe Denise is right.  The SVN Owner Membership Agreement for Fountains owners (available at: http://www.starwoodvacationownership.com/joinsvn/enroll.jsp) specifically states (italics mine):

"8.  Prohibition against Transfers of SVN Membership or StarOptions. This Agreement is exclusively between SVN Operator and Owner and may not be transferred or assigned by Owner, _except that Owner may transfer SVN Membership by will or intestate succession, or present or future children of such owners who have otherwise succeeded to their parents’ interest_."

Glorian


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## mepiccolo (Apr 21, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> No, they are not allowed to do that - I asked this question at a BOD meeting.  All beaches in Hawaii are public property and the trees are on the publicly owned set-back, so the resort can't do anything to them without permission from the state.  Also, the trees are considered "historical," for some reason.
> 
> The trees in front of the WKORV are trimmed so far back that they are skeletal, so I imagine that the trees in front of WKORVN will get a severe haircut, too.  They are Kaiwe Trees, which have long sharp thorns and are not a great tree to have on the beach!  They are not native to Hawaii, and legend has it that the missionaries planted them to make the Hawaiians wear shoes.  I don't know if it's true, but I've been told that several times.



I normally don't go around judging a tree's beauty but are these not about the ugliest trees ever?  I mean, they look like they'd go perfect in the Blair witch's house!  They are not nor do they look like they are native to Hawaii, they are unacceptable for shade because it SUCKS to step on the thorns they shed and they are just downright wicked-looking.  Can't they be replanted to another part of the island where they can continue to live but no one has to look at them blocking their views nor step on the thorns on what's supposed to be one of the most beautiful beaches in the world.  Keeping them for historical reasons is like forcing Julia Roberts to stay married to Lyle Lovett (okay, I'm sure he's a nice guy but that's the only comparison I could think of-I had a long day!)


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 22, 2008)

OK - OK... there are many better shots of these trees - filled in. They get cut back (and storm blown) and they grow (as living things do).  The trees are protected -and leave brutal thorns in the sand - just the way it is...

I prefer trees over no trees - not my favorite (because of the thorns) - but as an Ocean Front Owner (at the resort with real OF...) - no issue here - at least not one rallying against as TUG represents less than 1% of VOI Owners at WKORV (and a tough hurdle that LR has to overcome with the real issue).  No way that OF owners are going to be able to claim that OF means unobstructed views because of trees... not going to happen.

HOWEVER - placement of those inside units that face over the pool and another building - now... there's a case...


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## taffy19 (Apr 22, 2008)

MON2REY said:


> Here's a view of WKORV-N Ocean Front Bldgs 5 & 8.


I visited Denise L at her resort a few weeks ago and saw both properties. The trees were nicely trimmed so the view is much better today than what you see in this picture. I love the colors of the water, by the way. What a nice picture.  

Also, the bare ground that I saw in DeniseM's picture in this thread, (post #64) is growing in nicely too with a creeper type plant. It will look beautiful and natural once it is all covered. You can see the trimmed trees and partly covered grounds in Denise L's pictures in the same thread, post #74. Are you counting your days back to Maui, Denise? I am already.  

We love our fixed unit, fixed week at the Marriott resort.  All oceanfront units have an unobstructed view and on the first floor too. I spoke with several owners on the first floor and they loved it because they can walk in and out of the condo without having to use an elevator plus they have more room on their grassy lanais. The lanais upstairs are too small. JMHO. 

No lounge chairs are allowed in front of their condos so they have privacy and keep their unobstructed view too which makes perfect sense. I posted several pictures in my Smugmug album here. The chairs are everywhere so there were enough even during Easter week. The ocean view units start on the second or higher floors. Here is a picture of their designated views and you can still enlarge it. Why doesn't Starwood have a brochure like that available so people know what views they can expect?

It would bother me a lot, if I had paid a lot of money for an oceanfront view but was looking at a structure in front of me instead of the ocean. Starwood will have to change that somehow but how can they do it and make everyone happy? I hope for everyone concerned that it can be resolved in a satisfactory manner. 

It is a beautiful resort and having the reef right in front of you is awesome. I never snorkeled on this trip but would have, if it had been right in front of the resort. We miss that at the Marriott as we have to drive to Black Rock or to another snorkeling spot. One has to make a choice what is most important for you and your family.


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## Cathyb (Apr 22, 2008)

iconnections:  Black Rock is a nice walk not necessarily needing to drive if you take your time and walk past Whaler and Kaanapali Hotel.


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## taffy19 (Apr 22, 2008)

Cathy, my friend and I walked to Black Rock early in the morning and we walked fast too but it is too far for carrying a bag with snorkel gear and wetsuit, etc. 

The Westin timeshare resort would be ideal for snorkeling or diving as you are right there!


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## Danilo P (Jun 2, 2008)

LisaRex said:


> In reality, only the four front sections should have been coded OF, IMO.  The second stack is pushing the OF designation.  Coding the third stack is a joke, except I'm not laughing.



I'm looking at the map, and based on the discussion am assuming that the following units are designated as OF?

-- Building 5, Units 01-16.  ("First stack" = 01-08; "Second stack" = 09-12; and "Third stack" =13-16?)
-- Building 8, Units 01-14 (01-04 look to be over the pool... 13-14 seem a bit far from the ocean.)


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## LisaRex (Jun 2, 2008)

Danilo P said:


> I'm looking at the map, and based on the discussion am assuming that the following units are designated as OF?
> 
> -- Building 5, Units 01-16.  ("First stack" = 01-08; "Second stack" = 09-12; and "Third stack" =13-16?)
> -- Building 8, Units 01-14 (01-04 look to be over the pool... 13-14 seem a bit far from the ocean.)



You are correct.


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