# Quantitative Analytics!



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

Wyndham website sucks! No downloads as I could get from my bank or CC companies!
But, I did it the hard way and created an excel to analyze my Wyndham usage. Here is a look at the big picture! I plan to analyze this in greater detail! If anyone else is doing similar stuff, I would appreciate your sharing your insight! I wish I could get at the data directly!


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

Wyndham data that I obtained the hard way fails the basic INTEGRITY test!

SUM(CONTRACT POINTS AWARDED) - SUM(RESERVATION POINTS) = SUM(AVAILABLE POINTS)

Who the hell is minding the store at Wyndham! Their hair should be on fire if they cared!


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Wyndham data that I obtained the hard way fails the basic INTEGRITY test!
> 
> SUM(CONTRACT POINTS AWARDED) - SUM(RESERVATION POINTS) = SUM(AVAILABLE POINTS)
> 
> Who the hell is minding the store at Wyndham! Their hair should be on fire if they cared!



Does this mean that your family saved 2.8 million Wyndham pts or $17k?  It usually takes about 10 years to break even with VIPP telesales ($66k at $134/1k plus 2 PIC) accounting for VIP savings. 

I think it’d take 18 years for you or your family to break even, before you start saving.  Would have been 12 years had you bought telesales.


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

I have to gather all the numbers in one place. Then I will really have a handle on all this. I will post on this thread as and when I improve and fine-tune my analytics. Thank you for your interest. 

I think such an analysis can be beneficial. You should try it too. Unfortunately, without the ability to download transactions from Wyndham, it's a bit tedious. But it can be done. I can list the steps I took to do this, if anyone is interested.


----------



## raygo123 (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Wyndham website sucks! No downloads as I could get from my bank or CC companies!
> But, I did it the hard way and created an excel to analyze my Wyndham usage. Here is a look at the big picture! I plan to analyze this in greater detail! If anyone else is doing similar stuff, I would appreciate your sharing your insight! I wish I could get at the data directly!
> 
> View attachment 15307


Now what do you do with this?  You booked all in the the 60 days window so doubled your points.  When I go to points on the site it tells me in the top right I have 1,250,000 points for 2019.  I own 790,000.  So about half the time I received the discount and or upgrade or both.  That tells me how effective I was and still have gone where and when I wanted.  Below that is your history.  Every transaction that affected your points.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I have to gather all the numbers in one place. Then I will really have a handle on all this. I will post on this thread as and when I improve and fine-tune my analytics. Thank you for your interest.
> 
> I think such an analysis can be beneficial. You should try it too. Unfortunately, without the ability to download transactions from Wyndham, it's a bit tedious. But it can be done. I can list the steps I took to do this, if anyone is interested.



For 1 million Wyndham VIPP points, you get another 1 million Wyndham pts as 50 percent discount.  Of about 10 trips a year, you would probably get 5 free upgrades.  With upgrades worth 40k pts, that means the 5 free upgrades are worth 200k points a year.  VIPP pretty much get 1.2 million Wyndham pts for free per year or $7.2k year benefits.

The upfront cost for VIPP would be $66k with telesales.  It would take 9 years to break even, but it’s straight savings from there.


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

Here's a better analytic showing number of reservations, discounts, upgrades, and points by year and user!


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> Now what do you do with this?  You booked all in the the 60 days window so doubled your points.  When I go to points on the site it tells me in the top right I have 1,250,000 points for 2019.  I own 790,000.  So about half the time I received the discount and or upgrade or both.  That tells me how effective I was and still have gone where and when I wanted.  Below that is your history.  Every transaction that affected your points.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



Please check to see if points awarded you minus reservation points equal what is shown as your available balance. I would love to know if you too come up with any discrepancy!

In the point history, filter only contract transactions yo come up with points awards. Then filter only reservation-related transactions to come up with point usage. The difference should match your available balance.

Data is beautiful! You get a much better picture that's dispassionate and without emotions and presumptions!


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)




----------



## raygo123 (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Please check to see if points awarded you minus reservation points equal what is shown as your available balance. I would love to know if you too come up with any discrepancy!
> 
> In the point history, filter only contract transactions yo come up with points awards. Then filter only reservation-related transactions to come up with point usage. The difference should match your available balance.
> 
> Data is beautiful! You get a much better picture that's dispassionate and without emotions and presumptions!


Not yet and never will.as a VIP PLATIUM, it never will.  I do know that but do know my effective date per 1,000 was $3.08.  I also know that every time I make a reservation the totals ad up right.  What other than account transactions matter?

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

It has nothing to do with VIP or discounts. Just like a bank account, Balance must equal the sum of all transactions from inception, which is from the initial balance of zero.
When it doesn't, that means there was a computing error sometime in the past resulting in what is called an anomalous update which makes the balance go out of sync from the sum of all transactions!


----------



## raygo123 (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> View attachment 15312


I also use RCI and the quite season deposit unit upgrade.  I get 63,000 points for every 35,000 points I deposit and comparing just reservations and points will throw everything out of wack.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## raygo123 (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> It has nothing to do with VIP or discounts. Just like a bank account, Balance must equal the sum of all transactions from inception, which is from the initial balance of zero.
> When it doesn't, that means there was a computing error sometime in the past resulting in what is called an anomalous update which makes the balance go out of sync from the sum of all transactions!


Starting with a balance of zero means you have no bank account.  Why would you not start with your current balance of the use year?  I don't understand zero balance accounting.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

Sorry, nothing should go out of whack in a DOUBLE ENTRY accounting system!
In your example, 35000 points are all that matters to the accounting system, YOUR WYNDHAM ACCOUNT will be debited 35000 points.
63000 RCI points do not impact your Wyndham account! It just affects your mental state! You feel good! That's all!

Your RCI account is separate, you will get a CREDIT of 63000 RCI points.


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> Starting with a balance of zero means you have no bank account.  Why would you not start with your current balance of the use year?  I don't understand zero balance accounting.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



If every transaction correctly updates your account balance, the balance is always perfect and sync in with the transactions. So you don't have to go back to zero from 10 years ago but you can trust the yearend balance from the prior year.  This is a basic concept in accounting or bookkeeping!


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Here's a better analytic showing number of reservations, discounts, upgrades, and points by year and user!
> 
> View attachment 15311


You seriously travel 14-19 times a year?  I guess you are either retired or semi-retired.


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

My wife works as a paraprofessional at the county school for special needs children. So, we have to pack all the travel in summer months or spring /winter breaks. 19 reservations but mostly 2-3 days in each place. 
It's work using up Wyndham points, not really vacation! 
Making up for having very few vacations in the last 40 years!


----------



## chapjim (Dec 5, 2019)

For 2020, Wyndham was showing total points for the year as 812,000 points in excess of what I own.  What happened was there were eight transactions in February 2019 against 2020 points that netted to 0. (I made, then canceled, four reservations at Ocean Walk for March 2020.)  However, Wyndham ignored the negative transactions.  They returned 812,000 points to my 2020 account but didn't subtract the points from the account when I made the reservations.  DOH!


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 5, 2019)

chapjim said:


> For 2020, Wyndham was showing total points for the year as 812,000 points in excess of what I own.  What happened was there were eight transactions in February 2019 against 2020 points that netted to 0. (I made, then canceled, four reservations at Ocean Walk for March 2020.)  However, Wyndham ignored the negative transactions.  They returned 812,000 points to my 2020 account but didn't subtract the points from the account when I made the reservations.  DOH!


Maybe you shouldn't post about this publicly? Wyndham known to read TUG.


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

chapjim said:


> For 2020, Wyndham was showing total points for the year as 812,000 points in excess of what I own.  What happened was there were eight transactions in February 2019 against 2020 points that netted to 0. (I made, then canceled, four reservations at Ocean Walk for March 2020.)  However, Wyndham ignored the negative transactions.  They returned 812,000 points to my 2020 account but didn't subtract the points from the account when I made the reservations.  DOH!



This is exactly what I am talking about! Some bug or a back-door violation by the 'ticket' troubleshooters! An anomalous update! Will never pass muster in a banking or money environment.
I would assume a lot of anomalies are due to residual bugs from the conversion to a new system.

But I haven't fully understood your scenario. If they netted to 0, reservation and res-cancel transactions must cancel each other correctly. Are you saying reservation transactions did not subtract from available balance but res-cancel transaction added to the balance? Hard to believe.
This is a 2020 reservation using 2020 points. SO, not a borrowed point scenario, right? I see an option to purchase points! I wonder if the system could screw by mixing them up! Hmmm!
You may want to check other years like 2021 to see if they screwed them up too!


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Maybe you shouldn't post about this publicly? Wyndham known to read TUG.



If they have to read this TUG to find out something so basic a principle related to an accounting system, they have real problems with their IT!
IT folks should have integrity check routines to check such basic stuff! And when they discover a bug, it's going to be fixed. Question is what happens if you use up the points? A programmer can't drive your account negative on his own! Owner care will have to get involved!


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

I have made 2019 reservations borrowing points from 2020. I have also made 2020 reservations using 2020 points. So far, I have not noticed any anomalies. 
Discrepancy related to my account, is a 'ticket' deal with GOODWILL point adjustments to reimburse the difference between gold reservations I had made and the platinum discount I was eligible for when I transitioned from Gold to Platinum. 
Another time, I had to request the owner care to take the points from 2017-2018 bonus contract instead of 2018-2018 annual contract. It's dumb that they arbitrarily pick the use year. I made the case to Owner Care that I want to use up Bonus points before Regular points because Bonus points can't be deposited into a future year. So, they moved points from Bonus to regular contract.


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

Also, remember what is shown on the web page may not be the true numbers in the back end systems, It could such be a frontend system! I would love to find out how their systems are structured! They probably have a hodge-podge of legacy systems dealing with their disjointed departments! Par for the course for many large firms and especially the hospitality business!


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Also, remember what is shown on the web page may not be the true numbers in the back end systems, It could such be a frontend system! I would love to find out how their systems are structured! They probably have a hodge-podge of legacy systems dealing with their disjointed departments! Par for the course for many large firms and especially the hospitality business!


If you spend all the time making spreadsheets and analyzing systems or systems engineering, you should seriously think about renting more of your Wyndham TS points.  With VIP discounts, have you been making at least some profit or merely breaking even?

If you are at least making some profit, you may want to spend about 10 hours/week running a TS rental business.  This is especially the case now that you bought an additional 400k pts, which is effectively 800k pts with Wyndham VIPP discounts.


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

That's the idea! Need good analysis and a good business plan before I acquire any more points!
Between my son's business use of Canterbury and Midtown45 and 4 other rentals (5 guest reservations, unfortunately), I should have more than covered 2019 MF!


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> That's the idea! Need good analysis and a good business plan before I acquire any more points!



Don't buy anymore points until you get better at renting and more definitive what you can rent.  If you do buy resale, buy Grand Desert, National Harbor, or some other low MF.  These can easily be given away or given back to Wyndham via Ovations.

If you can rent at $6/1k pts costing $3/1k pts with VIPP, that means you'd profit $3/1k pts.  With 1.4 million pts, let's say you use 700k pts for yourself and your son.  Let's say you rent 700k pts.  That's $2,100/yr just for renting the 700k pts. 

It'd probably take 5 hours/week to rent the 700k throughout the year.  But hey, if you're retired or semi-retired and have a lot of time on your hands, renting TS Wyndham points would help you break even faster.  So instead of breaking even at 18 years, you might break even at 15 years.


----------



## chapjim (Dec 5, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Maybe you shouldn't post about this publicly? Wyndham known to read TUG.



I asked Wyndham about it because the last thing I wanted was for Wyndham to come after me a year or so later wanting their 812K points.  Never got an answer so I fiddled around with the numbers and figured out what was the problem.  It wasn't hard because it was pretty early in the year 2019 and I had only made maybe 2.5 million worth of reservations in 2020.

The 812K points weren't really available -- I couldn't have used them.  It just looked like they were available according to the My Ownership-Points tab.


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 5, 2019)

chapjim said:


> I asked Wyndham about it because the last thing I wanted was for Wyndham to come after me a year or so later wanting their 812K points.  Never got an answer so I fiddled around with the numbers and figured out what was the problem.  It wasn't hard because it was pretty early in the year 2019 and I had only made maybe 2.5 million worth of reservations in 2020.
> 
> The 812K points weren't really available -- I couldn't have used them.  It just looked like they were in the My Ownership-Points tab.


That is fair.


----------



## chapjim (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> This is exactly what I am talking about! Some bug or a back-door violation by the 'ticket' troubleshooters! An anomalous update! Will never pass muster in a banking or money environment.
> I would assume a lot of anomalies are due to residual bugs from the conversion to a new system.
> 
> But I haven't fully understood your scenario. If they netted to 0, reservation and res-cancel transactions must cancel each other correctly. Are you saying reservation transactions did not subtract from available balance but res-cancel transaction added to the balance? Hard to believe.
> ...



Hard to believe?  Yeah, no kidding!  (Except that it being Wyndham, it's a little easier to believe.)

Yes.  These were reservations with check-in dates in 2020 using 2020 points.  But the reservations were made in early 2019 -- 13 or 14 months before check-in.  I think I was trying to make reservations for the Daytona 500 but got the wrong dates from some website so I canceled all the reservations.  Points were returned to my account but were not deducted when I made the reservation.

As I recall, the cancellations were made within a day or two of the reservations, maybe even same day.

I check everything although when you have 4.6 million and the allotment for the year shows as 5.4, it kind of stands out!


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 5, 2019)

chapjim said:


> Hard to believe?  Yeah, no kidding!  (Except that it being Wyndham, it's a little easier to believe.)
> 
> Yes.  These were reservations with check-in dates in 2020 using 2020 points.  But the reservations were made in early 2019 -- 13 or 14 months before check-in.  I think I was trying to make reservations for the Daytona 500 but got the wrong dates from some website so I canceled all the reservations.  Points were returned to my account but were not deducted when I made the reservation.
> 
> I check everything although when you have 4.6 million and the allotment for the year shows as 5.4, it kind of stands out!


Remember in June 2019 when I said the Nats sucked, won’t make the playoffs, and shouldn’t have fired their old manager who consistently made but sucked in the playoffs. You said Nats will make the playoffs.  Guess I will eat my words.


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 5, 2019)

chapjim said:


> Hard to believe?  Yeah, no kidding!  (Except that it being Wyndham, it's a little easier to believe.)
> 
> Yes.  These were reservations with check-in dates in 2020 using 2020 points.  But the reservations were made in early 2019 -- 13 or 14 months before check-in.  I think I was trying to make reservations for the Daytona 500 but got the wrong dates from some website so I canceled all the reservations.  Points were returned to my account but were not deducted when I made the reservation.
> 
> ...


Jim, you know, you can sell your house and live in TS full-time!  That would be fun for a while.


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

chapjim said:


> I asked Wyndham about it because the last thing I wanted was for Wyndham to come after me a year or so later wanting their 812K points.  Never got an answer so I fiddled around with the numbers and figured out what was the problem.  It wasn't hard because it was pretty early in the year 2019 and I had only made maybe 2.5 million worth of reservations in 2020.
> 
> The 812K points weren't really available -- I couldn't have used them.  It just looked like they were in the My Ownership-Points tab.



That's more like it. Reservation and Res Cancel are not where I would expect a programmer to screw up. And final testing would have caught something so basic.

Real screwball transactions are adjustments etc. where they do not have a regular process flow or after-thoughts nobody bothered to provide for! Even that is so straightforward, it's not very likely to run into a bug there.

Now Contract trade can be a somewhat more complex transaction! In June 2019, I was tricked into trading 315 CWA points into 420 Grand Desert deeded points with the additional purchase of 105. The corresponding transactions that I see are so screwy. Especially since some of the 2018 CWA points had already been used or committed to reservations. I need more analyze them further to understand their logic and correctness.
You have to reverse all the future year awards. Add to this points borrowing and rental, purchase etc., I can see how a bug can creep in! 

I guess 2021 would be needed in December 2019 to make 13 months advance reservations but I wonder why they award it on 1/1/2019. I bet that is a legacy from when they used to have different contract start months.


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

chapjim said:


> Hard to believe?  Yeah, no kidding!  (Except that it being Wyndham, it's a little easier to believe.)
> 
> Yes.  These were reservations with check-in dates in 2020 using 2020 points.  But the reservations were made in early 2019 -- 13 or 14 months before check-in.  I think I was trying to make reservations for the Daytona 500 but got the wrong dates from some website so I canceled all the reservations.  Points were returned to my account but were not deducted when I made the reservation.
> 
> ...



Ha! There is a clue! Like I suspected, the reservation system is probably a front-end kluge because the bosses wanted a 'user-friendly' reservation system and it would be too big a deal to fix the backend mess and the short-cut guys put on a pretty face on the ugly beast of the backend system with a dodgy message interface! No wonder the damn thing is so slow! I bet, the Res and Res-Cancel messages were processed in the wrong order at the backend and the whole thing got buggered up! It's always easier to write a brand new system from scratch without the burden of the old legacy systems nobody remembers the details of!

You know your bank will process your daily transactions, not in the order they came but in the order of transaction priority! It helps you that process all the credits before the debits!

Maybe Wyndham too processes all cancels(credits) before reservations (debits).

But if you ever run into an NSF situation, BEWARE! They will maximize the number of overdraft fees you will pay! For example, let's say you have a balance of $1000, and you write one check for $1000, and 10 checks for $100 each, you would think they could pay the 10 $100 checks and ding you ONE fee on the $1000 check. No, they will pay the $1000 check because they 'assume'  the bigger amount is more important to you and ding you 10 overdraft fees on the 10 checks!


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

4.6 million points! Impressive! All developer points? My Kona sales manager said I should look into resale after getting my VIP status. But, I don't want to start something which my children cannot or do not want to sustain! It's one thing for them to say 'Dad, you should profit from Wyndham points!' and another thing for them to pitch in and LEARN the system and make it work profitably!
For now, I am just Ok with recovering MF!

Btw, I have 24 guest reservations left! Do they disappear on 12/31 or get carried over?
Easier to TUG this question rather than search tediously on Wyndham knowledgebase! See what I did there? I made a catchy verb! I hope it catches on!

Clear as mud! It doesn't answer my question!


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> 4.6 million points! Impressive! All developer points? My Kona sales manager said I should look into resale after getting my VIP status. But, I don't want to start something which my children cannot or do not want to sustain! It's one thing for them to say 'Dad, you should profit from Wyndham points!' and another thing for them to pitch in and LEARN the system and make it work profitably!
> For now, I am just Ok with recovering MF!
> 
> Btw, I have 24 guest reservations left! Do they disappear on 12/31 or get carried over?
> Easier to TUG this question rather than search tediously on Wyndham knowledgebase! See what I did there? I made a catchy verb! I hope it catches on!


Guest reservations are per year and do not rollover.  The Wyndham Plus Members Directory is below.

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/plus_membersdirectory1819/index.php#/265


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> 4.6 million points! Impressive! All developer points? My Kona sales manager said I should look into resale after getting my VIP status. But, I don't want to start something which my children cannot or do not want to sustain! It's one thing for them to say 'Dad, you should profit from Wyndham points!' and another thing for them to pitch in and LEARN the system and make it work profitably!
> For now, I am just Ok with recovering MF!
> 
> Btw, I have 24 guest reservations left! Do they disappear on 12/31 or get carried over?
> Easier to TUG this question rather than search tediously on Wyndham knowledgebase! See what I did there? I made a catchy verb! I hope it catches on!


I think @chapjim has 1 million developer pts and 3.6 million resale pts.  I could be wrong.


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

Clear as mud! It doesn't answer my question!


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

Grammarhero, I don't see any verbiage on expiry or roll over! Can you clip that for me? Thx.

Btw, if you are a resale owner, you don't get any?

So, a mega-renter with resale points has to buy a $99 guest confirmation. That explains the $99 cleaning fee all those guys charge! Hmmm!


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> .......Will never pass muster in a banking or money environment.......I would assume a lot of anomalies are due to residual bugs from the conversion to a new system.
> 
> 
> SNA27 said:
> ...



I am just guessing - but I bet major banks pay their key IT folks more  than Wyndham pays .

I have been reading the TUG Wyndham forum for about 4 years ; and IT glitches are a regular reported in threads .

I would go with Raygo123 on the concept - if it works - then go on vacation.
ie -" what other than account transactions matter ? "


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Grammarhero, I don't see any verbiage on expiry or roll over! Can you clip that for me? Thx.
> 
> Btw, if you are a resale owner, you don't get any?
> 
> So, a mega-renter with resale points has to buy a $99 guest confirmation. That explains the $99 cleaning fee all those guys charge! Hmmm!


It’s safe to assume that the guest confirmations don’t roll over.  That’s why Wyndham uses the language “per year.” Resale owners get two guest confirmations per year.


----------



## bendadin (Dec 5, 2019)

chapjim said:


> I asked Wyndham about it because the last thing I wanted was for Wyndham to come after me a year or so later wanting their 812K points.  Never got an answer so I fiddled around with the numbers and figured out what was the problem.  It wasn't hard because it was pretty early in the year 2019 and I had only made maybe 2.5 million worth of reservations in 2020.
> 
> The 812K points weren't really available -- I couldn't have used them.  It just looked like they were available according to the My Ownership-Points tab.



Wait! So that discrepancy in the points in the Total Use Year Points as to what I know I own is the amount of points that we available due to discounts? I have a 2019 discrepancy by a good amount but I chalked that up to a rescission last year affecting this year's tab. I have a discrepancy next year as well but I got rid of a couple contracts. It was close but not quite. So then I added up my reservations in the discount window for 2020. That wasn't close at all. So I made a reservation in the discount window to see if that total points number changed and it did not. 

So if it isn't your actual points, and it isn't the imputed value of discount (not upgrades) then what is it?


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> .... I would love to find out how their systems are structured! They probably have a hodge-podge of legacy systems dealing with their disjointed departments! Par for the course for many large firms and especially the hospitality business!



I believe there are past TUG threads that have information on the legacy systems - not that it will cure anything .


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

I made 3 reservations for my son in Grand Desert for 12/6-8. He decided he was not going to use them. So, I added point-protection for $49 and put them up on Airbnb. 

One got taken but I had to make an additional guest reservation for 12/4-6. Not bad for $945 payout for (13,000 + 26,500) 39,500 points + $49.

Son changed his mind again and is going to use one of them. 

I am still waiting for takers on the last one! Or cancel and get my 26,500 points back. Not a bad insurance, $49! After all, 26,500 points are worth > $49!

Grammarhero, I am learning inside baseball! I am with you on Nats! But then, I know I will lose you when I ask you what game they play! Ha ha ha!


----------



## raygo123 (Dec 5, 2019)

That was to point out ifyou start with zero how do you debit that transaction?





SNA27 said:


> Sorry, nothing should go out of whack in a DOUBLE ENTRY accounting system!
> In your example, 35000 points are all that matters to the accounting system, YOUR WYNDHAM ACCOUNT will be debited 35000 points.
> 63000 RCI points do not impact your Wyndham account! It just affects your mental state! You feel good! That's all!
> 
> Your RCI account is separate, you will get a CREDIT of 63000 RCI points.



Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk


----------



## OutSkiing (Dec 5, 2019)

I'm amazed that 100% of those reservations were made within 60 days.  We often make reservations during peak times so we make them 13 - 10 months in advance.  I do see mid-town and Canterbury seem to be available for 'business travel' mid weeks within 60 days so that adds up.

I hadn't tried the filter option on the history page before .. nice way to sift through though it looks like the resort selection boxes down the right don't really filter by resort.

Bob


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I made 3 reservations for my son in Grand Desert for 12/6-8. He decided he was not going to use them. So, I added point-protection for $49 and put them up on Airbnb.
> 
> One got taken but I had to make an additional guest reservation for 12/4-6. Not bad for $945 payout for (13,000 + 26,500) 39,500 points + $49.
> 
> ...


So it seems you profited $650 on 39.5k pts.


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

bendadin said:


> Wait! So that discrepancy in the points in the Total Use Year Points as to what I know I own is the amount of points that we available due to discounts? I have a 2019 discrepancy by a good amount but I chalked that up to a rescission last year affecting this year's tab. I have a discrepancy next year as well but I got rid of a couple contracts. It was close but not quite. So then I added up my reservations in the discount window for 2020. That wasn't close at all. So I made a reservation in the discount window to see if that total points number changed and it did not.
> 
> So if it isn't your actual points, and it isn't the imputed value of discount (not upgrades) then what is it?



Point is the point as far as accounting is concerned! I don't understand why there is confusion with discounts! Forget imputed values! That just make you feel good but it does not matter when it comes to bean counting!

Sum(Contract Award Points - RCI deposits) - Sum(Reservation Points) MUST EQUAL Sum(available points)!

If not, you should holler! But please don't open a TICKET! Ticket troubleshooters bugger up a system through backdoor updates and muck it all up! In any IT Ecosystem, the best and brightest are used to develop systems, and the troubleshooting support work is assigned to newbies! And they end up creating all kinds of problems!


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> So it seems you profited $650 on 39.5k pts.



How do you figure? My REVENUE is $945 and one expense is $49.
Are you using the imputed value of points according to some golden rule?

$900/39.5k ~= 22/1000


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> How do you figure? My REVENUE is $945 and one expense is $49.
> Are you using the imputed value of points according to some golden rule?


Estimating 39.5k to be $240 in MF.


----------



## OutSkiing (Dec 5, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> When I go to points on the site it tells me in the top right I have 1,250,000 points for 2019.  I own 790,000.  So about half the time I received the discount and or upgrade or both.



When I read this I had to go check if accumulated discounts were somehow calculated on the site!

To be clear, the 460k difference is not applied on the site from discounts given. It would be due to forward deposits made in prior years and you surmise that you were able to forward deposit due to the discounts in prior years.

Bob


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Don't buy anymore points until you get better at renting and more definitive what you can rent.  If you do buy resale, buy Grand Desert, National Harbor, or some other low MF.  These can easily be given away or given back to Wyndham via Ovations.
> 
> If you can rent at $6/1k pts costing $3/1k pts with VIPP, that means you'd profit $3/1k pts.  With 1.4 million pts, let's say you use 700k pts for yourself and your son.  Let's say you rent 700k pts.  That's $2,100/yr just for renting the 700k pts.
> 
> It'd probably take 5 hours/week to rent the 700k throughout the year.  But hey, if you're retired or semi-retired and have a lot of time on your hands, renting TS Wyndham points would help you break even faster.  So instead of breaking even at 18 years, you might break even at 15 years.




Grammarhero 

Your math is way off! $6/1000 is a silly low-ball figure based on MF cost! Nobody will start a business to sell at cost!

I would like to get $30/1000 or $21,000/700k points or a lot more! So far I have made $3,080/162K or $19/1000.

I haven't quantified the business use by my son but I bet that's a much better ratio! $4500/X points, but I haven't computed X yet!


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Estimating 39.5k to be $240 in MF.



It's better to set up a Revenue Metric independent of MF. MF is a SUNK cost! I have to pay for it anyway!

Make sunk cost your floor! Anything above that is a bonus! Now make a metric that will yield you a bonus that exceeds the sunk cost!

Anyway, the price is decided by the market and not by my sunk cost! I am not trying to rent Branson or Fairfield Glade! I will only rent hot properties!


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 5, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Grammarhero
> 
> Your math is way off! $6/1000 is a silly low-ball figure based on MF cost! Nobody will start a business to sell at cost!
> 
> ...


I try to use conservative figures.  Remember another tugger estimated $5k profit from renting 1.5 million pts after deducting for MF costs and guest confirmations.


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> I am just guessing - but I bet major banks pay their key IT folks more  than Wyndham pays .
> 
> I have been reading the TUG Wyndham forum for about 4 years ; and IT glitches are a regular reported in threads .
> 
> ...



T-Dot, You surprise me! I would have thought you would subscribe to fundamental axioms like 2 + 2 = 4! Ha ha! 

Btw, Raygo123 was confusing actual points paid with the imputed value of points! No way to balance your checkbook!


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> I try to use conservative figures.  Remember another tugger estimated $5k profit from renting 1.5 million pts after deducting for MF costs and guest confirmations.



I get that! But selling at cost is a non-starter! What are we, Commies?


----------



## raygo123 (Dec 5, 2019)

Yes that is true.  But it has been holding for three years.  It is trending that way.  Im going to blow it this year with two weeks in February in Florida and taking family to the dells using benefit points last of july so i only a 120,000 carryover.  I don't think any of those will be coming up in the discount window.





OutSkiing said:


> When I read this I had to go check if accumulated discounts were somehow calculated on the site!
> 
> To be clear, the 460k difference is not applied on the site from discounts given. It would be due to forward deposits made in prior years and you surmise that you were able to forward deposit due to the discounts in prior years.
> 
> Bob



Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 5, 2019)

OutSkiing said:


> I'm amazed that 100% of those reservations were made within 60 days.  We often make reservations during peak times so we make them 13 - 10 months in advance.  I do see mid-town and Canterbury seem to be available for 'business travel' mid weeks within 60 days so that adds up.
> 
> I hadn't tried the filter option on the history page before .. nice way to sift through though it looks like the resort selection boxes down the right don't really filter by resort.
> 
> Bob



I am amazed that people can plan things 13 months ahead! I admire you!
When I was young, I was focussed on the present and couldn't think of TOMORROW!
Now that I am old, I can't recall YESTERDAY!
I remember something vaguely about a horse, maybe even a carriage! Ha ha ha!


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 6, 2019)

I was going to contribute something noteworthy today as it was turning into yesterday but it's tomorrow or is it today and I forget what I was going to say yesterday!

Dang! That's a Mindbender without Kush! 

Airbender pwned!

Completely original! I am going to copyright this Mindbender paradox!


----------



## raygo123 (Dec 6, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> T-Dot, You surprise me! I would have thought you would subscribe to fundamental axioms like 2 + 2 = 4! Ha ha!
> 
> Btw, Raygo123 was confusing actual points paid with the imputed value of points! No way to balance your checkbook!


It has nothing to do with balancing anything.  Your sunken cost is also cost of goods.  The more reservations during the discount window the lower the cost of goods sold.  So your "sunked" cost become a variable cost of goods sold.  Your zero base accounting is a simple sales and expense report.  What my calculations yeilds is the ability to determine the profit margin of every unit rented.  

I had no idea you had in your mind a rental business, but we're talking about discrepancies in your account.  I don't rent and the only challenge for me is how effectively I am using my points.  My calculations permit me to judge from year to year the actual cost per reservation busing a common denominator, cost per point.  You will not be able to run a rental business by just using the discount window.  People know where they want to go and when, not what you can get during the discount window.  You may know accounting, but your business plan will not work.  I suggest you find on here some of the effects of the demise of cancel and rebook and it's effect on the rental business with Wyndham.  

What you are calling sunken cost is the most important aspect to renting "for profit".  Just ask all those mega renters how cancel and rebook affected their bottom line and cost of goods sold.  Or should I say former renters.  They all knew the "imputed" value of points is how low of a cost can you get them.  It actually is the only thing that matters as we already know what are the best resorts to book and when.  Bike week, Pompano Beach in winter etc.  The number of points and their cost determine the rental price and profit margins.  

If I were you I would stick to your accounting job.  Something you know a little about.


Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## raygo123 (Dec 6, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> T-Dot, You surprise me! I would have thought you would subscribe to fundamental axioms like 2 + 2 = 4! Ha ha!
> 
> Btw, Raygo123 was confusing actual points paid with the imputed value of points! No way to balance your checkbook!


Also when you can book in the discount window, 2 + 2 = 8

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 6, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> It has nothing to do with balancing anything.  Your sunken cost is also cost of goods.  The more reservations during the discount window the lower the cost of goods sold.  So your "sunked" cost become a variable cost of goods sold.  Your zero base accounting is a simple sales and expense report.  What my calculations yeilds is the ability to determine the profit margin of every unit rented.
> 
> I had no idea you had in your mind a rental business, but we're talking about discrepancies in your account.  I don't rent and the only challenge for me is how effectively I am using my points.  My calculations permit me to judge from year to year the actual cost per reservation busing a common denominator, cost per point.  You will not be able to run a rental business by just using the discount window.  People know where they want to go and when, not what you can get during the discount window.  You may know accounting, but your business plan will not work.  I suggest you find on here some of the effects of the demise of cancel and rebook and it's effect on the rental business with Wyndham.
> 
> ...


OP spent $183k on 1.4 million developer pts plus 2 PICs, although he could have only spent $123k with telesales.  It doesn't look like OP and his son use all 1.4 million pts in a year, particularly with VIP discounts.  OP appears to have five (5) hours extra/week to rent points, if he is posting on TUG, analyzing his Wyndham pts spent, and making spreadsheets. 

I estimate OP's break even point to be 18 years, accounting for the 50 percent discount and free upgrades.  However, if OP can rent 700k/yr at $2k/yr profit at 5 hrs/week, his break even point would be 15 years.  He just has to learn the peak travel seasons at various resorts.  Eastern beaches in summer.  HI and FL in winter.  Bike Week for Daytona.  Christmas and Thanksgiving in Orlando.


----------



## raygo123 (Dec 6, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> OP spent $183k on 1.4 million developer pts plus 2 PICs, although he could have only spent $123k with telesales.  It doesn't look like OP and his son use all 1.4 million pts in a year, particularly with VIP discounts.  OP appears to have five (5) hours extra/week to rent points, if he is posting on TUG, analyzing his Wyndham pts spent, and making spreadsheets.
> 
> I estimate OP's break even point to be 18 years, accounting for the 50 percent discount and free upgrades.  However, if OP can rent 700k/yr at $2k/yr profit at 5 hrs/week, his break even point would be 15 years.  He just has to learn the peak travel seasons at various resorts.  Eastern beaches in summer.  HI and FL in winter.  Bike Week for Daytona.  Christmas and Thanksgiving in Orlando.


Buy a municipal Bond and make that this year free of Federal taxes and save 5 hours a week to do accounting work on the side.  At $50/hr X 5 hrs X 52 weeks = $13,000

Now you at least know why I don't rent.  I made my million at my day job now is the time to enjoy.  Maybe I will become a timeshare salesman and show people how you can rent out points to pay your maintenance fees.  That is easier than renting.



Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 6, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> Buy a municipal Bond and make that this year free of Federal taxes and save 5 hours a week to do accounting work on the side.  At $50/hr X 5 hrs X 52 weeks = $13,000
> 
> Now you at least know why I don't rent.  I made my million at my day job now is the time to enjoy.  Maybe I will become a timeshare salesman and show people how you can rent out points to pay your maintenance fees.  That is easier than renting.
> 
> ...



I forgot to include OP’s $1.7k/yr profit he already gets from his son using Canterbury and Midtown at 100k a year.  ($4500 divided by 2 years, minus 100k pts at $6/pt).  I’m glad OP has been getting $20/1k for his rentals, but with diminishing returns, it’s unsustainable.  With his son’s rental, I think OP can actually get $4k/yr.  his break even point would then be 12 years, instead of 15 years.

Renting TS pts a lot more fun than side accounting work.  I estimate being a millionaire at age 47.  Would be 46 but for my vacations and TS vacations.

I’d rather spend 5 hours a week renting TS than a side legs business with mind numbing work.


----------



## raygo123 (Dec 6, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> I forgot to include OP’s $1.7k/yr profit he already gets from his son using Canterbury and Midtown at 100k a year.  ($4500 divided by 2 years, minus 100k pts at $6/pt).  I’m glad OP has been getting $20/1k for his rentals, but with finishing pts, it’s unsustainable.  With his son’s rental, I think OP can actually get $4k/yr.  his break even point would then be 12 years, instead of 15 years.
> 
> Renting TS pts a lot more fun than side accounting work.  I estimate being a millionaire at age 47.  Would be 46 but for my vacations and TS vacations.
> 
> I’d rather spend 5 hours a week renting TS than a side legs business with mind numbing work.


And if his son doesn't go there anymore or not available or his company no longer permits him to pay that much for a room, his whole paradine has changed.  Now he has to rely on the open market.  I once worked for a company that depended on almost half their business from Sears.  Until Sears decided the sales per square foot did not meet their minimum requirements.  It took years to get back to the sales level Sears contributed to the overall sales.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 6, 2019)

I think we are conflating too many issues here.

1. My first concern is making sure my Wyndham account balance is correct just like I would with a bank account. Reconciling the Account Balance has been more tedious without the ability to download transactions. I am confident I will be able to reconcile the balance to transactions and find out the source of any discrepancy! Tedious but not impossible!

2. Taking advantage of the discount window and upgrades has no bearing on Issue #1. In fact, all my 69 bookings so far have been in the discount window with 33 upgrades. If I buy a $100 item for $50 when it goes on sale, its cost to me is still only $50. And $100 figure has no significance other to make me feel good about having gotten a deal! 

3. The ability to rent points was often pushed as a great feature to motivate me into buying more points. So, I don't understand why Wyndham would discourage renters. Anyway, I became an accidental Airbnb host as I had explained earlier. I will have to understand a lot more about various desirable locations, conference dates, etc. before I would undertake rental business seriously! Airbnb does take some of the hassles out of it, though!


----------



## raygo123 (Dec 6, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I think we are conflating too many issues here.
> 
> 1. My first concern is making sure my Wyndham account balance is correct just like I would with a bank account. Reconciling the Account Balance has been more tedious without the ability to download transactions. I am confident I will be able to reconcile the balance to transactions and find out the source of any discrepancy! Tedious but not impossible!
> 
> ...


Because they competed with Wyndham's rental business and kept prices too low and owners complained about availability.  It is written in the directory that commercial renting is prohibited.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 6, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> It’s safe to assume that the guest confirmations don’t roll over.  That’s why Wyndham uses the language “per year.” Resale owners get two guest confirmations per year.



I made 6 guest reservations in 2018. All of my son's reservations were made as a guest too. My sons' names got on to the system with the Flagstaff FW where I included their names too. Only smart thing I did wrt Wyndham without even realizing it!
I have so far made 18 Guest reservations in 2019 and I still have 24 left. There are no transactions relating to guest awards visible to us on the website. There's no way to reconcile the number 24. I would hate to call Customer (dis)Service on this!


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 6, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> Because they competed with Wyndham's rental business and kept prices too low and owners complained about availability.  It is written in the directory that commercial renting is prohibited.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



Would my few and infrequent rentals be considered commercial renting because it's listed on Airbnb?


----------



## raygo123 (Dec 6, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Would my few and infrequent rentals be considered commercial renting because it's listed on Airbnb?


No

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## Rolltydr (Dec 6, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> No
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



The best post of this entire thread. Short, sweet and to the point. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Eric B (Dec 6, 2019)

Rolltydr said:


> The best post of this entire thread. Short, sweet and to the point.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



It was one of my favorite ones, too, but caveat emptor - legal advice you get on TUG is worth every penny you pay for it.  Which reminds me; @SNA27, membership in TUG helps support its maintenance and only costs $15.  The advice and experience of other timeshare users is well worth that, but I would probably look elsewhere for actual legal advice.


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 6, 2019)

I paid the $15 membership! So, BBS is different from TUG?

What is the referral reward? I wonder who should get it! Hmm!

@T-Dot-Traveller I chose you to receive the referral reward!
Why does it still say on this BBS I am a guest?

Apparently, I have not properly linked using a codeword! There is no TUG member number to enter, is there?


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 6, 2019)

Looks like the link worked! I am officially recognized as a TUG member now!


----------



## jules54 (Dec 6, 2019)

SNA27 I know you are renting trying to cover your Maintance fees. You consider anything over that profit? Cause with what you paid for your contracts will you ever make a profit? Lol just kidding you.
I know your a numbers guys. Here is a simple country girl's way off figuring profit.
I take my yearly maintenance fees which are substantial. I then figure out how much 1,000 pts costs. I don't figure Contract by contract. All my contracts have long ago paid for themselves.

Rental Amount-COS-99.00 guest confirmation even if I use a free one=Profit. Example below

Rental 2240.00
COS.    980.00 140,000 pts x 7.00 per 1,000  I round up
GC.        99.00
profit   1161.00 that's real profit after all expenses which are points cost and GC cost

If you did this 10 times a year that is how much profit? 11,610.00 profit 

If the reservations take less points it's still the same model.

In your opinion am I doing something wrong?


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 6, 2019)

Dear Madam @jules54,
I will never dare to find anything wrong with a matriarch who presides over a large progeny and profits by doing what comes naturally to her!
I would love to learn from your vast wealth of experiential knowledge!

Your math is perfect! Your Revenue Factor is 2240/140 = 16/1000, Cost Factor = (7 + 99/140)/1000, resulting in a Profit Factor of $8.29/1000!
If you capitalize your original investment and depreciate it over 30 years, then you could add a Depreciation Factor and get a clearer picture!

I have been thinking about what to charge my sons for the use of points! I don't really want to charge anything and their mother will never tolerate it! But it's just to address the unequal usage! And to set up a fair formula for the future after we're gone!
Just charging rock-bottom FEES/1000 doesn't address the investment value of the points. But this is really not an investment with ROI potential. So, I am considering the depreciation model especially since TS is a depreciating asset, unlike my residence! It's more like an automobile. Actually, TS is worse than an automobile! Apparently, it depreciates to ZERO when you walk out the door having been enthralled by the Wyndham Sales Wizards and Witches!

Btw, may I ask what is the significance of 54 in your username?


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 6, 2019)

IRS allows Real Property to be depreciated over 27.5 years. So my investment of 183k (I still have to verify this number) will depreciate at the rate of $6,655 per year. So, I will add that to my annual cost and come up with a fair family usage charge per 1000. $10 per 1000 in my case looks like a nice round number!


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 7, 2019)

How do I fix the typo on the thread header?


----------



## Sandi Bo (Dec 7, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> How do I fix the typo on the thread header?


You have a limited amount of time (days? - not sure how long) where you can update the thread header.  You must be logged in, and in the upper right corner, if you can still update it - you'll have a Thread Tools option.  If you only have Watch Thread and Ignore Thread you can no longer update.  If Thread Tools is still there, you'll see an option to edit the title in the dropdown.   If Thread Tools is no longer there, you can select to report the thread, it'll ask you for a reason, and you could ask to have the Title updated. 

Thread Tools will be in the upper right corner of your post when you are logged in (if the option is still available to you):


 
You always have and option to report a thread at the bottom of each post. This contacts a moderator:


----------



## bendadin (Dec 7, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I have been thinking about what to charge my sons for the use of points! I don't really want to charge anything and their mother will never tolerate it! But it's just to address the unequal usage! And to set up a fair formula for the future after we're gone!



I had a kid who needed a pretty good amount of points for a 15 night stay in Manhattan for his internship. He had a roommate from school so they split the cost. He covered my MF.  Same kid going back to Manhattan but Mommy is going this time so the stay is on me. (2 bedroom PR up from hotel, heck yeah!)

I have others who request here and there and we typically just eat those points. They are all owners on my account and a couple of them have our grandbabies so then that changes the dynamics right there.


----------



## jules54 (Dec 7, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Dear Madam @jules54,
> I will never dare to find anything wrong with a matriarch who presides over a large progeny and profits by doing what comes naturally to her!
> I would love to learn from your vast wealth of experiential knowledge!
> 
> ...



The 54 stands for the year of my parents greatest joy. My birth year 1954


----------



## chapjim (Dec 7, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> IRS allows Real Property to be depreciated over 27.5 years. So my investment of 183k (I still have to verify this number) will depreciate at the rate of $6,655 per year. So, I will add that to my annual cost and come up with a fair family usage charge per 1000. $10 per 1000 in my case looks like a nice round number!
> 
> View attachment 15346



That's fine for you full cost retail purchase but how does one depreciate something that only cost $1?

For tax purposes, I don't depreciate anything, even the cost of my Presidential Reserve contract.  Two reasons:  one, maintenance fees used for major refurbishment sound a lot like an anti-depreciation expenditure; and two, claiming depreciation invites an IRS audit.  I don't think I have anything to fear but don't want the hassle.


----------



## raygo123 (Dec 7, 2019)

chapjim said:


> How do you depreciate something that only cost $1?


Devide by 27

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## chapjim (Dec 7, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> Devide by 27
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



LOL!! $.03/year


----------



## raygo123 (Dec 7, 2019)

chapjim said:


> LOL!! $.03/year


Unless you use an accelerated depreciation method.maybe $.06/ year the first five and then the amount decreases over the balance of the time period.  Somthin like that.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## jules54 (Dec 7, 2019)

If my babies or their babies want to go somewhere with Wyndham points. They pay what the points cost me. Unless it's near Christmas or their Birthdays or as a reward for being good citizens and I've never had to bail any of them out of jail. My daughter in law once told me I raised a good son. My response was NO I RAISED A GOOD MAN.
All adult age babies have their names on one contract so no GC fees. One of our sons is a JR so he and his father have the same. Didn't have to put his specific name on anything.
The upside of having all those names on my account is I book reservations for specific events way before the event. I can make 7 reservations for the same dates at the same resort before I get the warning that my reservation will be cancelled in 48 hrs unless I change the name on it.


----------



## Makai Guy (Dec 7, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> How do I fix the typo on the thread header?



For future reference, answers to most of your TUGBBS operational questions can be found in the BBS Help section, accessed via the yellow link in the blue navigation bar near the top of the page. 

In this case, see
https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/how-to-edit-your-post.38444/


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Dec 7, 2019)

chapjim said:


> LOL!! $.03/year





raygo123 said:


> Unless you use an accelerated depreciation method.maybe $.06/ year the first five and then the amount decreases over the balance of the time period.  Somthin like that.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



If you use chapjim's method - then you can say -"It's not worth a plugged nickel "


----------



## bendadin (Dec 7, 2019)

jules54 said:


> If my babies or their babies want to go somewhere with Wyndham points. They pay what the points cost me. Unless it's near Christmas or their Birthdays or as a reward for being good citizens and I've never had to bail any of them out of jail. My daughter in law once told me I raised a good son. My response was NO I RAISED A GOOD MAN.
> All adult age babies have their names on one contract so no GC fees. One of our sons is a JR so he and his father have the same. Didn't have to put his specific name on anything.
> The upside of having all those names on my account is I book reservations for specific events way before the event. I can make 7 reservations for the same dates at the same resort before I get the warning that my reservation will be cancelled in 48 hrs unless I change the name on it.



I have eight and the Jr situation as well with a kid though he is on the account. While listed with their suffices, the GC does not and I just don't risk the system dumping something. That being said, FIL has the same name but MIL is on the account so we can send them places as well. No trust yet as I still have kids under 18 so my owner list is not complete.


----------



## Eric B (Dec 7, 2019)

chapjim said:


> ... how does one depreciate something that only cost $1?
> 
> For tax purposes, I don't depreciate anything, even the cost of my Presidential Reserve contract.  Two reasons:  one, maintenance fees used for major refurbishment sound a lot like an anti-depreciation expenditure; and two, claiming depreciation invites an IRS audit.  I don't think I have anything to fear but don't want the hassle.



Actually, you would have to decide whether it's qualified real estate that you can deduct under Section 179 and get the full tax benefit up front rather than spread out over the useful life of the property.  That could wind up being worth $0.28 in the first year, assuming you're in a 28% tax bracket, rather than $0.01 per year for 27 1/2 years.  This isn't intended as legal or tax planning advice, of course, which would depend on the specific context of your tax situation.  In either case, they would likely round down to zero if you use TurboTax instead of doing it manually....


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 7, 2019)

jules54 said:


> The 54 stands for the year of my parents greatest joy. My birth year 1954



I had a hunch that's what it was! I asked because that's my birth year too! Don't know about the 'greatest joy' part!

Apparently, the conjunction 'never mind' was born in 1954 too!

https://www.buzzfeed.com/audreyworboys/word-same-year-you-were-born​


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 7, 2019)

chapjim said:


> That's fine for you full cost retail purchase but how does one depreciate something that only cost $1?
> 
> For tax purposes, I don't depreciate anything, even the cost of my Presidential Reserve contract.  Two reasons:  one, maintenance fees used for major refurbishment sound a lot like an anti-depreciation expenditure; and two, claiming depreciation invites an IRS audit.  I don't think I have anything to fear but don't want the hassle.



If Wyndham doesn't break out Capital Improvement costs from routine upkeep, you would be in the clear if you deducted MF.

I remember reading long ago, that I MUST take depreciation deduction for a rental house that I own whether or not it's beneficial to me! And recapture the depreciation if and when I sell the rental. Even if I elect to forego the depreciation, IRS will recapture depreciation as if I had taken it when I sell the rental! Wow!

Read the experts making this point emphatically! You can't forego the depreciation just because you will derive no benefit from taking that deduction. It's not optional!
https://ttlc.intuit.com/community/r...-income-is-low-i-am-retired-so-i-do/00/521076

There is a TUG article on taking depreciation when you rent out your timeshare!
https://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/income_taxes_and_timeshares_from_an_accountant.html


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 7, 2019)

This may be a way for people to recover their investment! Convert it from personal use to full-time rental. Start taking depreciation deduction to recover the costs. Maybe even sell it after a few years and take the Ordinary loss for the entire amount minus the depreciation already taken!


----------



## raygo123 (Dec 7, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> This may be a way for people to recover their investment! Convert it from personal use to full-time rental. Start taking depreciation deduction to recover the costs. Maybe even sell it after a few years and take the Ordinary loss for the entire amount minus the depreciation already taken!


I'll give you one thing, your optimistic.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## Rolltydr (Dec 7, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> This may be a way for people to recover their investment! Convert it from personal use to full-time rental. Start taking depreciation deduction to recover the costs. Maybe even sell it after a few years and take the Ordinary loss for the entire amount minus the depreciation already taken!



I’m no lawyer but I would think that would make you susceptible to a lawsuit from Wyndham since turning it into your own rental property is specifically forbidden in your contract.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 7, 2019)

Wyndham sales guys always pushed the rental angle if I cannot use the points! Not a mega-renter competing with them with gazillion resale points! I would bet exit companies have looked at this as a way to charge hefty fees!

Any all this is idle talk! Mapping out a route to somewhere I am not going!


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 7, 2019)

Rolltydr said:


> I’m no lawyer but I would think that would make you susceptible to a lawsuit from Wyndham since turning it into your own rental property is specifically forbidden in your contract.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



At least in NY in which I am an attorney, Wyndham wouldn’t sue first.  It costs $499 to file, and an attorney will charge $2k for a complaint.  Wyndham would likely ask OP to stop first.  It doesn’t make much business sense to sue someone who’s given you $183k in developer purchases and $6.4k/yr in MF.  You’d want to maintain that friendly customer relationship and money stream.

That being said, at least in NY, as long as OP or his son uses half of his 1.4 million pts, his pt usage primarily personal.  If he starts renting over half of his 1.4 million pts, his pt usage is then primarily commercial.


----------



## Rolltydr (Dec 7, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> At least in NY in which I am an attorney, Wyndham wouldn’t sue first.  It costs $499 to file, and an attorney will charge $2k for a complaint.  Wyndham would likely ask OP to stop first.  It doesn’t make much business sense to sue someone who’s given you $183k in developer purchases and $6.4k/yr in MF.  You’d want to maintain that friendly customer relationship and money stream.
> 
> That being said, at least in NY, as long as OP or his son uses half of his 1.4 million pts, his pt usage primarily personal.  If he starts renting over half of his 1.4 million pts, his pt usage is then primarily commercial.


Maybe I should stick to non-legal alalysis. ;-)


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 7, 2019)

Rolltydr said:


> Maybe I should stick to non-legal alalysis. ;-)


This thread evolved or descended into analysis of Wyndham renting, tax deductions, and accounting schemes.


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 7, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> This may be a way for people to recover their investment! Convert it from personal use to full-time rental. Start taking depreciation deduction to recover the costs. Maybe even sell it after a few years and take the Ordinary loss for the entire amount minus the depreciation already taken!


Might be smart for TS depreciation.  The President figured this out for rental property depreciation.


----------



## Rolltydr (Dec 7, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> This thread evolved or descended into analysis of Wyndham renting, tax deductions, and accounting schemes.



Yes. The more I read, the more I wanted to drink!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 7, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> This may be a way for people to recover their investment! Convert it from personal use to full-time rental. Start taking depreciation deduction to recover the costs. Maybe even sell it after a few years and take the Ordinary loss for the entire amount minus the depreciation already taken!


Apparently, Redweek, Irs, and TurboTax has articles on tax deductions for timeshares.
https://www.irs.gov/faqs/sale-or-tr...se-of-business-property-condo-timeshare-etc-1
https://www.redweek.com/resources/articles/timeshare-tax-deductions
https://www.google.com/amp/s/ttlc.i...xpense-on-a-timeshare-if-rented/00/406385/amp


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 7, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> This may be a way for people to recover their investment! Convert it from personal use to full-time rental. Start taking depreciation deduction to recover the costs. Maybe even sell it after a few years and take the Ordinary loss for the entire amount minus the depreciation already taken!


Redweek articles on depreciation dedications for TS rental income and selling TS.
https://www.redweek.com/resources/articles/tax-aspects-renting-timeshare
https://www.redweek.com/resources/articles/tax-aspects-selling-timeshare


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 8, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Hey hey hey! Don't tread that perilous path!
> Trump, as imperfect as he may be, is but the expression of the aspirations and frustrations of millions! I wanted a Chanakya or a Machiavelli or even a Michael Corleone to get rid of this demented anti-American permissive rot, but he is all we could get! I can work with that! I love my messenger and my President! He is doing a great job draining the swamp! Swamp critters are fighting for their lives! But they will asphyxiate to death!
> Barron-hating Dingbats can go drown themselves! Can you imagine that dingbat on the SCOTUS? What a lucky escape for America! All's well that ends well! Hallelujah!


Didn’t mean to have you talk about politics, which is frowned upon on TUG.  My only comment was that it might be smart to treat TS depreciation as tax deductible, capitalized, carryover losses, which the President figured out for his rental property.


----------



## SNA27 (Dec 8, 2019)

What is your field of law in that dysfunctional corruptocracy of NYC! Upstate NY is beautiful but it is an enslaved vassal state subjugated by NYC!

Midtown45 has the most persistent hustlers in the TS business! When I was there in May, they brought out a whole parade of minstrels, wizards, blow-hards, brow-beaters and even muggers to part me from my money! But, for me, it's so easy to say NO to rude, overbearing hustlers with really annoying accents! The more they persist, the more I resist! 

Never again will I subject my wife and myself to their waterboarding torture! Not worth their crappy reward!


----------



## Rolltydr (Dec 8, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I recommend Vodka on the rocks! Tonic and lime slice if you want to dilute your experience! Let the ice melt a bit! Zdrovie! Здоровье!
> But you do run the risk of being labeled a Russian Asset or Putin Puppet!



I hate vodka and Putin so that won’t work. I won’t get into my politics at the risk of violating board rules but I prefer bourbon and I have no problem if it is imported.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Dec 8, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Didn’t mean to have you talk about politics, which is frowned upon on TUG.



Apparently : the policy regarding  contentious issues was implemented when escalating confrontations between members created significant problems . This was before I started reading / later joined TUG . Those threads were in a prior  TUG bbs format so there is no legacy reading option .

It is always best to stick to a timeshare related context .
such as : “Russian Timeshares run by the Gulag Corp. follow the RTU format but it can be extended for life by the developer” .

TUG lounge is the preferred location for non- timeshare topics . Good judgement is the best
policy when commenting on general interest topics .

The personal edit function helps too , if o’neil hindsight , thinks a moderator will frown on one’s post .Moderators can also lock a thread that has descended into chaos .
< FYI- this  occur at least once a year in the TUG Mexican Forum - regarding travel & safety.  While the topic is timeshare related - individual comments can lead to a locked thread or a moderator editing a thread .


----------



## rapmarks (Dec 8, 2019)

I really feel this thread is in violation of tug rules now


----------



## Sandi Bo (Dec 8, 2019)

I'll just put this here... 

From Rules (which can be found in the links at the top of this TUG BBS page).

*Avoid posting about politics, religion, or contentious social issues*

Unless directly related to timesharing, such discussions are prohibited in these forums, including TUG Lounge. We've been down that road before, it was ugly, and we are not going there again.


----------



## Karen G (Dec 8, 2019)

The End


----------

