# [ 2012 ] Need Help [Legacy Vacation club]



## sangu (May 16, 2012)

I was introduced to Timeshare when I was in Vegas and bought one on Friday 5/11/12. Then my friend advised me that there are lot of scams out there and I may be a victim of the scam. 

When I looked more into the sales agreement, the name and address of the resort doesn't match. Now I am not sure which resort I will get my timeshare for.  And also the breakdown is correct and but the amount I paid is $30 extra. They mentioned that all the maintenance for 2012 is current and I have to pay for rest of the year. But in the agreement the yearly maintenance fee is $780 which is full year maintenance amount they told me. But in the agreement nothing is mentioned about the annual maintenance fee for the resort. 

When I called to cancel it ,they mentioned that it is a liquidation and all sales are final. "All sales are final" is also written in the agreement. I sent my cancellation request notice by mail and email on 05/15/12. I paid the entire amount from my credit card. 

I need some advice. Am I still covered under Nevada State law as I sent my cancellation request before 5th calendar day? What are my options if they refuse to cancel it? Is it legal to cancel the credit card transaction if they refuse to cancel it?

Thanks!


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## sangu (May 16, 2012)

On an additional note, they didn't provide any Rescission letter or form. I sent the letter based on a sample letter I found in a TUG forum.


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## ronparise (May 16, 2012)

Im not a lawyer, nor am I familiar with Nevada law, but here in Florida, even timeshares sold on the secondary market are covered by the law and regulation dealing with your rescission rights...

Nevada may do something  different, 

You have already sent a cancel letter, so thats good....Is it legal to contact your credit card company?...sure, but will you be successful?....I dont know, but you have to contact them to even have a chance


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## sangu (May 16, 2012)

Thanks! Good that I paid with my AMEX card. I heard that they are good in protecting customers compares to other cards. I will call them and ask if I can dispute. But I am not sure as the agreement says that "All sales are final".


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## csxjohn (May 16, 2012)

*Call your Credit Card Company!*

" When I looked more into the sales agreement, the name and address of the resort doesn't match."

Tell this to the credit card company and it should be enough for them to cancel the payment.  Explain that you think you may be the victim of a fraud and you want to cancel the payment.

Good luck.


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## RX8 (May 16, 2012)

What did you buy and from whom?  If it was from a developer I don't see how that would make a difference from a rescission standpoint.  There is no such thing as a "used" timeshare.


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## sangu (May 16, 2012)

I bought the timeshare for Legacy Vacation club in Steamboat Springs,CO from Timeshare Liquidators in Las Vegas. I was so dumb to notice that the agreement doesn't have a invoice number or agreement number. It just has the RCI resort ID and their inventory ID. 

They advised me that no matter where I purchase it I can use the points for any RCI resort and in fact they advised not to use it for the same resort so I can use the points for more than one week.

I am confused whether I am eligible for Rescission as they claim it as the liquidation, not a resale. And the agreement says "All sales are final".


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## Passepartout (May 16, 2012)

It would not be uncommon to find different addresses. The business office may indeed be in a different place than the sales office.

Was this a developer sale? Some reseller? If a developer sale, they cannot make the 'all sales final' assertion. Not sure about a reseller,  but even on eBay, real estate sales (of which timeshares qualify) are not binding.

I might get in touch with the BBB of Las Vegas, perhaps the NV Atty. General, and certainly challenge the CC charge, asserting fraud, and providing documentation that you had attempted rescission within the legally allowed 'cooling off' period.

That it was a 'used' TS. All TSs are 'used'. From the second day the place is open, someone slept in the bed the night before you and someone else will sleep in it the night after you leave. What's 'new' about that?

We wish you well.

Please post some more details. And keep us posted about the results.

Jim


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## sangu (May 16, 2012)

Thanks! But the agreement have the same address in Resort address and contact address. But the resort with that name is in a different address. Maybe they are under the same management. I don't know. I even sent the Cancellation letter through FAX today(5th calendar day from the day of purchase). Also opened a dispute with my CC.

Should I contact AG office now or wait till they respond to my letter or CC inquiry?


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## aliikai2 (May 16, 2012)

*The name sounds like a reseller, not a developer*

I don't know the law in Nevada, but you may not be able to cancel this resale purchase. How did you find these folks? Greg



sangu said:


> I bought the timeshare for Legacy Vacation club in Steamboat Springs,CO from Timeshare Liquidators in Las Vegas. I was so dumb to notice that the agreement doesn't have a invoice number or agreement number. It just has the RCI resort ID and their inventory ID.
> 
> They advised me that no matter where I purchase it I can use the points for any RCI resort and in fact they advised not to use it for the same resort so I can use the points for more than one week.
> 
> I am confused whether I am eligible for Rescission as they claim it as the liquidation, not a resale. And the agreement says "All sales are final".


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## Passepartout (May 16, 2012)

It sounds like you have much to learn. Is this a vacation club, or a resort? Is it in RCI Points? Does what you paid include RCI membership? Googling it, it looks like a resort. Do you REALLY want to vacation in Steamboat Springs? Other Legacy resorts? What is the underlying week? Unit size? Do they have an internal exchange? How many points do you get for the $780 annual MF? We consider a penny a point a year a pretty good deal and generally pass on more expensive ones unless we REALLY like the resort and want to stay there, so 78,000 points would be worthwhile.

All sales final clauses should have raised a huge red flag for you. I would contact the AG's office to see if this can be binding on out-of-state real estate sales. You may have to get Colorado involved in this, and I have no idea how much $$ we are talking about here, but it is probably worth pursuing.

On eBay auctions, there is one (Legacy V.C. Steamboat) available now. Price is $1, and no bids. One (2BR) sold 5/8 for $14.14. So if you paid much more than that, you was took.

Do what it takes to get out of this, including cancelling the CC.

Jim


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## Karen G (May 16, 2012)

sangu said:


> Should I contact AG office now or wait till they respond to my letter or CC inquiry?


Here's a phone number I found:
Timeshares	 Real Estate, Division
                         702-486-4033 or 
                         775-687-4280
It is from this Nevada website. They should be able to tell you your rescission rights for a transaction of this type.


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## sangu (May 16, 2012)

I was contacted while visiting in NYNY casino. They were at the front desk and I thought it's the casino offering vacation packages, so attended the presentation. I don't know what I was thinking at that time. We went for the presentation at 2PM and came out purchasing it at 6PM.

Yes. I am learning a lot about timeshare now. It's a resort. I bought 2BR  for $2500+closing cost $873, total to $3373 and I have to pay $780 maintenance fee for 2012. It's a float type, no speficic unit or type and annual 28000 RCI points. The closing cost also included RCI membership fee for 2012. They said it's all the points that matters not the resort. They advised not to use the resort instead use other resorts and pay by points. Also they said if I didn't like it they can sell it for me.


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## Karen G (May 16, 2012)

I found this quote of Nevada law:

Answer

NRS 119A.410 Right to cancel contract of sale.
1. The purchaser of a time share may cancel, by written notice, the contract of sale until midnight of the fifth calendar day following the date of execution of the contract. The contract of sale must include a statement of this right. 
2. The right of cancellation may not be waived. Any attempt by the developer to obtain a waiver results in a contract which is voidable by the purchaser. Looks to me like putting "all sales are final" on the contract would be an attempt to obtain a waiver & thus makes the contract voidable.
3. The notice of cancellation may be delivered personally to the developer or sent by certified mail, return receipt requested, to the business address of the developer. 
4. The developer shall, within 15 days after receipt of the notice of cancellation, return all payments made by the purchaser. 
(Added to NRS by 1983, 982; A 1985, 1141; 1987, 894; 2003, 984; 2007, 1549) 



Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_...re_and_by_what_method_to_cancel#ixzz1v3VJiome

I don't think a reseller can claim he's not under this law simply by calling it a "liquidation" instead of a sale.  If you sent your rescission notice and have proof that you mailed it within the time specified, it would seem to me that you are covered.  I would also contact my credit card company and send them a copy of this law and a copy of my rescission letter.


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## Passepartout (May 16, 2012)

It could be worse. Many people who find TUG do so after buying a TS worth $1 for $15,000 or more. It could also be better, as 28,000 RCI points is not all that usable a number. Most middle-of-the-road TSs will 'cost' 35,000 or so points to get into for a week's vacation 'in season'. Shoulder or off-season you can get into some fairly nice places, but don't count on getting into Disney quality on 28K. There is also the $190 RCI fee for booking using your points. I suppose they also told you about all the wonderful 7500 point weeks you can get into at the last minute? There are darn few of those and they are all less-than-desirable resorts in off season. Think Steamboat Springs in March after the snow melts.

Anyway, keep trying to cancel the sale, and if timeshare still appeals to you, come back and learn about them before you spend any more money. If they still won't release you, come back anyway and learn how to best use what you bought. Lots of us (me included) have paid more and gotten something less usable.

I'd advise against 'letting' the resale outfit sell it for you, they will just charge you even more. You can give it away here without incurring more cost if it comes to that.

Jim


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## aliikai2 (May 16, 2012)

*How do you get from a resale company to Developer??*

I don't see that this resale company can be called a developer any more than I can, they sell resale properties, they are not selling at retail like a developer. At least that is what I see.. Greg



Karen G said:


> I found this quote of Nevada law:
> 
> Answer
> 
> ...


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## sangu (May 16, 2012)

Wow! I love this forum! Thank you all for helping me on this!!!

I sent the agreement along with my cancellation letter to my CC and also the link: http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-119A.html#NRS119ASec410
which has the above listed law conditions. I will call Nevada Real Estate divisions to see if this contract can be voided.


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## Karen G (May 16, 2012)

aliikai2 said:


> I don't see that this resale company can be called a developer any more than I can, they sell resale properties, they are not selling at retail like a developer. At least that is what I see.. Greg


That would be a good question to ask the agency that I mentioned in post #12--is a timeshare reseller held to the same law that a developer is?  It seems that this particular outfit that sold to the OP operates like the developer does by soliciting prospects and giving a presentation at their office.  They seem to be more like a developer than a private individual who is selling his own timeshare.


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## Passepartout (May 16, 2012)

sangu said:


> Wow! I love this forum! Thank you all for helping me on this!!!
> 
> I sent the agreement along with my cancellation letter to my CC and also the link: http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-119A.html#NRS119ASec410
> which has the above listed law conditions. I will call Nevada Real Estate divisions to see if this contract can be voided.



You might also call/notify the resort to inform them that you are in rescind mode with the reseller and not to start any transfer of ownership process. You aren't interested, and pursuant to Nevada code yada yada yada are exercising your right to rescind.

Good Luck.....

Jim


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## sangu (May 17, 2012)

*Costly lesson learned.*

I finally got hold of Nevada Real Estate divisions. They said Nevada resales don't have cancellation option. The deals are completed then and there. The rescission applies to timeshare purchases from Developers only. So I can not cancel it. 

I will have to wait 3 months to get the deeds transferred and get my RCI account details. I think I will take the loss and give it away. Not sure if someone will be interested with just 28000 points. Costly lesson learned.


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## csxjohn (May 17, 2012)

sangu said:


> I finally got hold of Nevada Real Estate divisions. They said Nevada resales don't have cancellation option. The deals are completed then and there. The rescission applies to timeshare purchases from Developers only. So I can not cancel it.
> 
> I will have to wait 3 months to get the deeds transferred and get my RCI account details. I think I will take the loss and give it away. Not sure if someone will be interested with just 28000 points. Costly lesson learned.



Have you talked to your credit card company yet?  It seems you were deceived and there are discrepancies in the deal.


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## Passepartout (May 17, 2012)

Bummer! Even at that, 3 months will be August before you can book a week. Maybe the reseller will book a week's stay some place/time that would work for you and you could replace the points after you get your account? Thing is, the further out you can book a vaca (something they don't always tell you about TSs) the better the choice as to location/week. The closer to move-in, the slimmer the pickin's are. Another consideration, if you are unable to use the 2012 points, they automatically roll over to the next 'use year'. After you pay the 2013 MF, you'll have 56K points which is a nice vaca, and maybe a couple of lesser last-calls. 

I suppose it would be understandable to want nothing to do with the seller, but until the transfer is made and you have an account, you are sort of joined at the hip. You need them- at least for now.

Stick around TUG. Learn the basics of RCI Point use. Don't despair, lots of us got into timeshares in similar ways- and most bought from developers for multiples of what you paid.

You can still get some nice vacations from this- and that's the value you saw in it when you bought this. That hasn't changed.

Jim


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## RX8 (May 17, 2012)

I have never heard of a reseller using tactics of a developer - that is soliciting prospects for a high pressure sales presentation.  Seems like they found a loophole in Nevada law that locks in their customers with no rescission rights.  

I would think the intent of the law is to protect customers once they come out of the ether of the sales presentation.  With resellers now getting into that arena, I think the law needs to be amended.


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## Karen G (May 17, 2012)

sangu said:


> I finally got hold of Nevada Real Estate divisions. They said Nevada resales don't have cancellation option. The deals are completed then and there. The rescission applies to timeshare purchases from Developers only. So I can not cancel it.


Thanks for letting us know. I stand corrected in my assessment of your situation and I appreciate knowing what Nevada law says.

You might want to stick around TUG and learn how to use what you've bought. While you did pay more than what you could have had you bought on eBay, you got a bargain compared to what you would have paid had you bought from the developer.  If you are able to travel in the off seasons or on short notice, you might be able to pick up  2-3 weeks per year and as a member of RCI you'll have access to Extra Vacation Getaways or Last Call trips.  Why not give it a try for a year or so since you've already paid for it.

Many of us on TUG have paid far more for a timeshare week than we would have had we found TUG before buying, but that hasn't stopped us from having some great vacations and finding bargains the next time we bought. I hope you can enjoy what you have.


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## sangu (May 17, 2012)

I called the resort too. The management for the resort is in the resort address mentioned in the agreement because the same management manages both resorts. I guess that won't be considered a discrepancy. Let's see what they respond to the CC inquiry.

RCI membership fees was mentioned as $278 in the initial form they gave and $248 in the agreement. I have singed on both. Not sure if this fee is for one year or 2 years. I believe it's supposed to be 2 years as the yearly membership fee they mentioned was $124. Are there any membership intiation fee or something? I couldn't find about it in RCI website. I would have to ask them about that. Maybe they will correct it.

I guess I would have to buy points to use the vacation this year. I hope I can make use of it or get rid of it soon. 

Thank you very much to all of you!! I really appreciate your caring and immediate responses.


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## Rent_Share (May 17, 2012)

sangu said:


> I *was contacted while visiting in NYNY casino. They were at the front desk and I thought it's the casino offering vacation packages*, so attended the presentation. I don't know what I was thinking at that time. We went for the presentation at 2PM and came out purchasing it at 6PM.
> 
> .


 
Need to spread the word *not to visit  NYNY* Casino for renting space to crooks


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## sangu (May 17, 2012)

It's just not only NYNY. It was the first casino approached us. Then we were approached by every casino. Looks like they target young couples from other states.


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## Passepartout (May 17, 2012)

RX8 said:


> I have never heard of a reseller using tactics of a developer - that is soliciting prospects for a high pressure sales presentation.  Seems like they found a loophole in Nevada law that locks in their customers with no rescission rights.
> 
> I would think the intent of the law is to protect customers once they come out of the ether of the sales presentation.  With resellers now getting into that arena, I think the law needs to be amended.



I also think this is a new tactic, and the law needs to be amended. Until then, *perhaps a moderator can add the warning to the BSR stickies that in Nevada, resales are not able to be rescinded.*

Whenever I see an 'All Sales Final' notation, an immediate *RED FLAG* is raised and my B.S. alarm tells me that I need more information. No way in hell I'd spend $3000 on something I didn't fully understand and hadn't taken for a test drive.

Jim


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## skibum200 (May 17, 2012)

Not to hijack this thread but I can't believe what I am reading.  I just purchased this exact same deal one day later than the original poster.  I too purchased for $3373 28,000 points at the Steamboat legacy suites.  Is it possible that two units were available?  I feel a little buyers remorse.  Is 28,000 points for $2500 plus $500 closing costs with a $780 HOA a good deal?


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## amycurl (May 17, 2012)

In essence, no, it's not a good deal. For RCI points, 1 cent a point is a good deal; I think you're paying almost 3 cents, but math was never my strong suit. In addition, you could have gotten one of these for free or almost-free off of e-bay. But you've lost less money than others have in the past. So hang out here at TUG and learn more about how to get the best use out of your investment.

I am really concerned about a reseller suddenly using developer tactics. Maybe those PCCs have found a business model that is even more lucrative than a Viking Ship, or using e-bay. It's like a Frankenstein business model--they get paid thousands on the front end, and then use developer tactics to get thousands more from unsuspecting customers on the back end. Plus, buyers can't back out like they can on e-bay, and they get more money, too. Even with higher costs (the kick back to NYNY, paid sales people) they are still probably making out like bandits. This is the kind of thing that the new resellers organization needs to start educating AGs about, so that the laws can be changed ASAP.


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## skibum200 (May 17, 2012)

we are a newly married 26 year old couple.  What is interesting is that the entire deal was sold around the "RCI points" that i will receive.  The actual property that i am a deeded owner to wasn't even mentioned.  It wasn't until just now that I realize my I own week 21 at a ski resort, which is an off season where nothing is going on.  I realize the true value lies in the points and the ability to travel to many different places.  Nowhere in my contract does it even mention the actual week that i own.  Would it be possible to dispute this with my credit card company?  Worst case scenario is i'll just deal with the 28,000 points and consider it a lesson learned.  Thanks


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## csxjohn (May 17, 2012)

skibum200 said:


> we are a newly married 26 year old couple.  What is interesting is that the entire deal was sold around the "RCI points" that i will receive.  The actual property that i am a deeded owner to wasn't even mentioned.  It wasn't until just now that I realize my I own week 21 at a ski resort, which is an off season where nothing is going on.  I realize the true value lies in the points and the ability to travel to many different places.  Nowhere in my contract does it even mention the actual week that i own.  Would it be possible to dispute this with my credit card company?  Worst case scenario is i'll just deal with the 28,000 points and consider it a lesson learned.  Thanks



Definitely call the CC company.

And the true value in timeshares is not always the points.  Many buy where they want to go. And there are other ways to trade where points are not involved, which you will learn about here on TUG.


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## skibum200 (May 17, 2012)

The interesting thing about this company is that they claimed to be working for banks selling "foreclosed timeshare properties"  they had a "hot sheet" of properties that listed the original price paid, and the remaining balance.  On my specific property the remaining balance was 10,000 bucks and they eventually offered it for 2500 so i thought i was getting a great deal.  Anyone have any info on this forclosure timeshare deal?  The staff seemed to be giddy with excitement at this new tactic, sales angle.


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## sangu (May 17, 2012)

*Purchase Agreement*

Here is my purchase agreement. 

AgreementPage1
AgreementPage2

The address of the resort is mentioned 3 times in the agreement as 1000 Highpoint Drive. But "Legacy Vacation Club Steamboat Springs Hilltop" is located in that address. "Legacy Vacation Club Steamboat Springs Suites" is located at  1485 Pine Grove Road, Steamboat Springs, CO, 80487. Here are the links: 
http://www.legacyvacationresorts.com/destinations/colorado/steamboat-springs-suites/

http://www.legacyvacationresorts.com/destinations/colorado/steamboat-springs-hilltop/

Both the resorts are managed by the same management. But still the agreement clearly have the resort is located at 1000 Highpoint Drive. The amount by the split is totaling to $3343, but the total amount in the agreement is $3373.


Do you think I have a case? Or can they escape by saing that the address was mentioned incorrectly and they will issue timeshare for "Legacy Vacation Club Steamboat Springs Suites" and the amount will be changed to $3343? It's still eating my head.


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## ronparise (May 17, 2012)

amycurl said:


> In essence, no, it's not a good deal. For RCI points, 1 cent a point is a good deal; I think you're paying almost 3 cents, but math was never my strong suit. In addition, you could have gotten one of these for free or almost-free off of e-bay. But you've lost less money than others have in the past. So hang out here at TUG and learn more about how to get the best use out of your investment.
> 
> I am really concerned about a reseller suddenly using developer tactics. Maybe those PCCs have found a business model that is even more lucrative than a Viking Ship, or using e-bay. It's like a Frankenstein business model--they get paid thousands on the front end, and then use developer tactics to get thousands more from unsuspecting customers on the back end. Plus, buyers can't back out like they can on e-bay, and they get more money, too. Even with higher costs (the kick back to NYNY, paid sales people) they are still probably making out like bandits. This is the kind of thing that the new resellers organization needs to start educating AGs about, so that the laws can be changed ASAP.



I dont think you can back out on ebay...sure if you are the high bidder, you can just not sign the contract or not pay, but once you send your money you will have a hard time backing out unless there is a title problem or unless the ebay ad was incorrect.

Consider too that selling timeshares in this way is better for the resorts than the Viking ship approach. This way there is a new owner paying fees rather than a default and forclosure expenses

Ive been approached by a company out of Orlando (where else) that offered to sell my timeshares.  They didnt promise a price, but they did say that they sell just like the developers do...with high pressure presentations in resort towns....and they generally get prices somewhere between developer pricing and ebay pricing..I blew the guy off because I  wasnt willing to pay his up front fee for something that I had never seen before....Now that we have some evidence that they do sell like the developers do; I may call him back


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## sangu (May 17, 2012)

Same situation here. We are 29 year old newly married couple. They mention only about the points. Nothing about the underlying property and they are giving advise on not to use the resort and use points for somewhere else.


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## sangu (May 17, 2012)

I may have a case here. Here is the info I found on http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-119A.html#NRS119ASec710


NRS 119A.710  Unfair methods of competition; deceptive or unfair acts.  It is unlawful to engage in unfair methods of competition or deceptive or unfair acts in the offer to sell or sale of a time share including, without limitation:
     1.  Misrepresenting or failing to disclose any material fact concerning a time share.
     2.  Including in an agreement for the purchase of a time share provisions purporting to waive any right or benefit provided for purchasers under this chapter.
     3.  Receiving from a prospective purchaser any money or other valuable consideration before the purchaser has received a statement of public offering.
     4.  Misrepresenting the amount of time or period of time the unit will be available to a purchaser.
*     5.  Misrepresenting the location or locations of the unit.*
     6.  Misrepresenting the size, nature, extent, qualities or characteristics of the unit.
     7.  Misrepresenting the nature or extent of any services incident to the unit.
     8.  Misrepresenting the conditions under which a purchaser may exchange occupancy rights to a unit in one location for occupancy rights to a unit in another location.
     9.  Failing to disclose initially that any promised entertainment, food or other inducements are being offered to solicit the sale of a time share.


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## Passepartout (May 17, 2012)

You guys oughtta either hire Guido and the kneebreakers or parade in front of their desk with a sandwich sign that says 'DON'T SIGN ANYTHING YOU CAN'T BACK OUT OF!!!!'

The seller obviously got a bunch of 'mud season' ski resort weeks that have been converted to minimal RCI Points accounts. (Grandview Las Vegas is worth about 92,000 points for under $800/yr MF and is generally available on eBay for a few bucks) What you got may not be the worst thing going, but they didn't do you any favors.

What they are doing should be criminal, and they have no shame, problem is that it seems to be legal, and they CAN have the ALL SALES FINAL disclaimer. 

Did anybody say "Welcome to TUG?" You folks are going to need all the help you can get. 

Keep fighting the good fight, but if all else fails, we can help you get the most out of what you bought.- Or help you give the weeks away without costing you more.

Jim

PS- Another thought occurred to me. This Legacy outfit has 4 resorts in Florida, one each in NJ and Reno and as well as 2 in Steamboat. You might check to see what opportunities there are for internal exchanges if any of those locations appeal to you.


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## amycurl (May 17, 2012)

ronparise said:


> Consider too that selling timeshares in this way is better for the resorts than the Viking ship approach. This way there is a new owner paying fees rather than a default and foreclosure expenses.



I agree, it's better for resort. I'm looking at it from a consumer's perspective: the protections in the law when it comes to developer sales are there for a reason, so if resellers are using the same tactics, then those laws should apply to them. I know you're very buyer-beware, but there's a reason why consumer protection laws exist and are needed. 

It would seem to be a very compelling business model for the PCCs and larger resellers. But it comes at the expense, again, of people who don't understand (and might not be able to afford, even at "resale" prices,) what they are selling. 

This model may be the beginning of the end of the e-bay $1 sale.  And my understanding was that real estate auctions on e-bay were non-binding, but I could be wrong. 

May we live in interesting times....


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## susieginger (May 21, 2012)

*I am trying to get out of similar experience*

Write everybody you can.  Do not make a CC payment or that will imply that you agree with the charges.  Write your story to NV Atty General, Consumer Complaint Form.  (They just keep tract with how many others are being scammed by this company.)  Write to NYNY .  They should take some responsibility in you being scammed in their lobby.  You were the victim of "Bait and Switch"  (like me).  Send your story to the American Express CC via certified letter.   Fill out a BBB complaint, online.  I have done all of this.  The only thing left is to go on the local TV's Problem Solver program.  Name Names!!  An attorney told me that the Timeshare people are more scared of bad publicity than they are of the law. Keeping you for 6 hours until they finally made a sale...they wore you down....be sure and include that in your story.  Be sure and keep a file, a good paper trail.  Write down the names of the people you talk to.  My fraudulant experience was with Sunset Harbor Resorts and Points Rental Liquidators...also in Las Vegas.  American Express was wonderful.  Put my dispute on permanent status after they investigated my case.  I had sent them a copy of the "contract" I signed.
Good Luck!!  Keep fighting.  The crooks expect us to give into their pressure, nasty letters, etc.


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## ronparise (May 22, 2012)

amycurl said:


> I agree, it's better for resort. I'm looking at it from a consumer's perspective: the protections in the law when it comes to developer sales are there for a reason, so if resellers are using the same tactics, then those laws should apply to them. I know you're very buyer-beware, but there's a reason why consumer protection laws exist and are needed.
> 
> It would seem to be a very compelling business model for the PCCs and larger resellers. But it comes at the expense, again, of people who don't understand (and might not be able to afford, even at "resale" prices,) what they are selling.
> 
> ...



Im sure you are right about ebay sales...if you are the high bidder you probably can back away, and just not pay....but once you sign the contract that they present and send them your money i think you have a deal

I agree completely with the need for consumer protection laws especially when it deals with financial products, real estate and mortgages.

I was responding to another post when I said this model is better for the resorts, but I didnt mean to say that it was justified for that reason. 



It is interesting to note that if whats reported here is accurate; that they are going after young couples...That explains why they didnt approach my wife an me when we were in vegas last month...All my gray hair and wrinkles scared them away

If the resorts would just start accepting deed backs, all these problems would go away


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## djohn75087 (May 22, 2012)

amycurl said:


> In essence, no, it's not a good deal. For RCI points, 1 cent a point is a good deal; I think you're paying almost 3 cents, but math was never my strong suit. In addition, you could have gotten one of these for free or almost-free off of e-bay. But you've lost less money than others have in the past. So hang out here at TUG and learn more about how to get the best use out of your investment.
> 
> I am really concerned about a reseller suddenly using developer tactics. Maybe those PCCs have found a business model that is even more lucrative than a Viking Ship, or using e-bay. It's like a Frankenstein business model--they get paid thousands on the front end, and then use developer tactics to get thousands more from unsuspecting customers on the back end. Plus, buyers can't back out like they can on e-bay, and they get more money, too. Even with higher costs (the kick back to NYNY, paid sales people) they are still probably making out like bandits. This is the kind of thing that the new resellers organization needs to start educating AGs about, so that the laws can be changed ASAP.




Timeshare resale companies definitely try to take advantage of uneducated buyers just like the developers do. I got to see this first hand for myself. After leaving my first Wyndham presentation my wife and I were very impressed with what Wyndham had to offer, but not impressed enough to pay 12k for 84k points when I knew nothing about the system. We went back to our overpriced condo and hit the internet. We found a resale company offering 126k points for $2600 plus closing and transfer. Being a newbie I quickly agreed to the price. The salesperson then said she would need to get the sale approved by the owner. She called me back a couple of hours later saying the owner also wanted $800 for mfs. I told her I needed to run it by me wife. I got off the phone and back on the net. That’s when I found eBay and saw the $1 sales. She called back a couple of hours later and said the owner would cover the mfs. I told her I changed my mind. If she had left it alone I would have paid the $2600. Funny thing is I now own 385k for less than the $2600 I was willing to pay for 126k. The point is, there are no good guys in the timeshare business. Buyer beware, their only goal is to make as much money as possible.  The funny thing is they probably made a couple thousand off the original owner, and they had $2600 from me and they still wanted more!


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## theo (May 22, 2012)

*Too broad a brush being used to "paint" here...*



djohn75087 said:


> The point is, there are no good guys in the timeshare business.



With all due respect, you are quite simply mistaken. There are many independent, fully sold out resorts that have an affiliated resale broker on site (albeit often only part time) who is completely honest --- and would be promptly driven off scene at the first hint of ever being otherwise.

Your quoted "point" has some merit as pertains to many (...maybe even most) so-called "resale companies". However, in my nearly 30 years of timeshare experience, I can assure you that there are indeed some "good guys" in the business --- you simply haven't had the occasion or opportunity to encounter them in your own limited dealings...


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## csxjohn (May 22, 2012)

*Here's a clue.*



theo said:


> However, in my nearly 30 years of timeshare experience,...



This is why this site is so helpful.  There are good and bad in every business but listening to what experience has taught people like theo, we can learn things that would take us another 30 years to learn on our own.

Thanks for all your insight.


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## easyrider (May 22, 2012)

What an interesting way to sell timeshare weeks. The amounts seem small enough to make it too costly to go to civil court and too high to go to small claims court.

Bill


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## djohn75087 (May 22, 2012)

you simply haven't had the occasion or opportunity to encounter them in your own limited dealings...[/QUOTE]

The sad thing is that you may be right, but everytime I have a discussion with any timeshare salesman I assume that he/she is lying to me because of what I've seen for myself or read on these sights. Because there are so many dishonest t/s salseman I just assume I can't trust any of them. What would you consider a sign that the salesman is being honest? I know that if they say the deal is only good for today I assume everything is a lie.


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## Rent_Share (May 22, 2012)

easyrider said:


> What an interesting way to sell timeshare weeks. The amounts seem small enough to make it too costly to go to civil court and too high to go to small claims court.
> 
> Bill


 
You would have to sue in Nevada or where ever their main office is


Except these are gifts that keep on giving with recurring maintenance fees


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## theo (May 22, 2012)

*One more time, with feeling...*



djohn75087 said:


> Because there are so many dishonest t/s salsemen I just assume I can't trust any of them. What would you consider a sign that the salesman is being honest?



I tried previously to make some clear distinctions which you may have missed; let me try again...

Like you, I would always assume that any and every *developer* sales weasel breathing air is either mistaken, exaggerating or flat out lying with virtually every lip movement. Most will say *anything* to make a sale, knowing full well that ultimately *only* the actual *written* contract content matters at all. 

Resale company representatives (who are not developer associated) often don't know much (...if anything) about timeshare weeks they are peddling. Accordingly, it can certainly be difficult to distinguish between mere incompetence and outright dishonesty in this bunch.

As stated already however, there are many independent, sold out resorts where the on-site resale broker has absolutely nothing to do with the (long departed) original developer. These folks I tend to trust; while they are certainly still out to make a buck, they would be hard pressed to misrepresent either the product or a realistic resale value or they would very soon just be given the boot and *gone*...


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## csxjohn (May 22, 2012)

*I've seen the honest ones.*



theo said:


> I tried previously to make some clear distinctions which you may have missed; let me try again...
> 
> Like you, I would always assume that any and every *developer* sales weasel breathing air is either mistaken, exaggerating or flat out lying with virtually every lip movement. Most will say *anything* to make a sale, knowing full well that ultimately *only* the actual *written* contract content matters at all.
> 
> ...



A Mr. Ron Thompson in Burnsville NC handles all the resales for the HOA at Alpine Village.  He's a real estate agent in the area. If he tried to hustle anyone into buying, he would not have those units to sell.  

The manager at the resort referred me to him when I wanted to list a unit for sale.

The good guys are out there!


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## sangu (May 23, 2012)

*Question on week usage*

Amex is still disputing for me. But they are claiming that it's a foreclosure and not resale or developer laws are applicable for these sales.

I also found that the Unit number and week number were handwritten on the top leftmost corner on another document. They told me that it's a float type and I can use it anytime. But that was not written in any of the documents.

The week for this timeshare # is 21 which is the current week of May. They told me that I can start using it as soon as the deeds are trasferred which will possibly take about 3 months.  Eventhough I pay the maintenance fees for 2012, I can not use the timeshare for the resort I bought right? Or when it has a value of 28000 points it can be used anytime of the year for the resort I bought? Please clarify. This could be considered as a "Misrepresentation of the fact" clause and can also be applied for a foreclosure sale.


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## Karen G (May 23, 2012)

sangu said:


> Amex is still disputing for me. But they are claiming that it's a foreclosure and not resale or developer laws are applicable for these sales.



Please clarify that statement:  Is Amex claiming it's a foreclosure and not a resale? Is Amex saying developer laws are applicable to these sales?



sangu said:


> I also found that the Unit number and week number were handwritten on the top leftmost corner on another document. They told me that it's a float type and I can use it anytime. But that was not written in any of the documents.
> 
> The week for this timeshare # is 21 which is the current week of May.



For deeding purposes a specific unit number and week is often listed on the contract & the deed since it's a real estate transaction. But, if the week has been converted to a points system, the unit number and week are irrelevant since you'd have the points to use in exchange for a week or days some place else.



sangu said:


> They told me that I can start using it as soon as the deeds are trasferred which will possibly take about 3 months.  Eventhough I pay the maintenance fees for 2012, I can not use the timeshare for the resort I bought right? Or when it has a value of 28000 points it can be used anytime of the year for the resort I bought? Please clarify. This could be considered as a "Misrepresentation of the fact" clause and can also be applied for a foreclosure sale.


You could deposit the points for the usage year you bought into RCI and then you have a year (or might be 2 yrs.?) to use them. On RCI points, often you have a "usage year" that might be different from a calendar year. When I owned a points resort mine ran something like  October 1, 2001 through September 30, 2002. It was very confusing.


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## Passepartout (May 23, 2012)

I can't offer any advice on the CC dispute or the resale outfit's description of it being resale or foreclosure. Seems to me that a sale is a sale through a dealer and that 'cooling-off' rules should apply.

Anyway, to your other question. It's immaterial that the underlying week has passed on an RCI points account. Once the account has been set up, you should see those points in it and be able to book a vacation using the 2012 points. You shouldn't expect a really top resort week, in season, because the year is getting on and most of the 'good' weeks have been booked already. Timeshares are not like hotels where you can just call for a reservation. It doesn't work that way. You might be able to see an attractive 'last call' though and these are cash deals that don't take points, saving your points for next year. Your 28K of 2012, combined with the 2013 points (you'll have to pay the 2013 MF) should be able to score a really nice vaca in 2013.

Hope that clarified what you are buying a little bit. There is more info in the stickies.

Jim


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## sangu (May 23, 2012)

I guess Amex is still waiting for response from Timeshare Liquidators. But all of the laws listed in the timeshare section in Nevada Real Estate Divisions website are not applicable to Foreclosure sale as per: NRS 119A.170.


NRS 119A.170  Applicability of this chapter and chapter 645 of NRS.

     1.  The provisions of this chapter, except subsection 4, do not apply to:

     (a) The sale of 12 or fewer time shares in a project or the sale of 12 or fewer time shares in the same subdivision;

     (b) The sale or transfer of a time share by an owner who is not the developer, unless the time share is sold in the ordinary course of business of that owner;

     (c) Any transfer of a time share:

           (1) By deed in lieu of foreclosure;

           (2) At a foreclosure sale; or

           (3) By the resale of a time share that has been acquired by an association by deed in lieu of foreclosure or at a foreclosure sale;

     (d) A gratuitous transfer of a time share;

     (e) A transfer by devise or descent or a transfer to an inter vivos trust; or

     (f) The sale or transfer of the right to use and occupy a unit on a periodic basis which recurs over a period of less than 5 years,

Ê unless the method of disposition is adopted to evade the provisions of this chapter or chapter 645 of NRS.


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## glypnirsgirl (May 23, 2012)

Seems to me that this sale does not fall into the exceptions.



sangu said:


> I guess Amex is still waiting for response from Timeshare Liquidators. But all of the laws listed in the timeshare section in Nevada Real Estate Divisions website are not applicable to Foreclosure sale as per: NRS 119A.170.
> 
> 
> NRS 119A.170  Applicability of this chapter and chapter 645 of NRS.
> ...



And this final provision is your salvation. If they can claim that they are an association as set up within the definition, it seems to me that their purpose in setting up that way was for the purpose of circumventing the rules.

And all of this is my personal opinion, not a legal opinion.


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## Passepartout (May 23, 2012)

Bottom line, though, Elaine, OP bought with the contract clearly stating that all sales were final, and saw enough value in the presentation that he decided that he needed to jump right on it. Only after researching (here) did he get the buyer's remorse. I also think the sale is subject to rescission rights, but clearly the weasels have the laws of Nevada on their side. It isn't right, but without an expensive court battle it is what it is. And, where we are just talking about $3K, no 'injured' buyer and certainly no law firm is going to go to the time and expense of taking on the real estate laws of a state.

Sure, he could have bought more points for less, but we've all made decisions in haste that we could regret at leisure. Bought the wrong car, gotten into the wrong line at the grocery store or toll booth. Stuff happens. 

Maybe the thing for the OP to do is to get a really cheap $1- 90,000 point deal and combine the points. He'll have double the MF, but 3X the vacations.

Jim


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## sangu (May 24, 2012)

*Is the purchase contract still binding?*

Finally Timeshare Liquidators agreed (verbally though, nothing in written) that the resort address mentioned in the Purchase agreement is incorrect. Still no apologies for that mistake and they are proceeding with the sale. 

If I understand it correctly,Timeshare is a real estate property whether it's a week or point system. And I believe address is the most crucial part in timeshare or any real estate property. I can not buy or they can not sell something which don't exist in the address mentioned in the contract. 

The sales manager again and again mentioned that all that matters is the RCI points, not the resort. We were not given time to check the validity of the address before the purchase. And we were pressured to make a decision fast as the sale must be completed before 5PM and the offer must be taken on 05/11/2012 itself or else the offer is gone. I checked that all foreclosure sale of any real estate property in Nevada must be completed between 9AM and 5PM. The sales manager hurried us to process American express transaction before 5PM and the transaction went through at 4:57PM PST.

Timeshare Liquidators still won't void the contract and says it's binding. When the address of the property itself is wrong, how could a purchase contract be binding?


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## Passepartout (May 24, 2012)

sangu said:


> The sales manager again and again mentioned that all that matters is the RCI points, not the resort. We were not given time to check the validity of the address before the purchase. And we were pressured to make a decision fast as the sale must be completed before 5PM and the offer must be taken on 05/11/2012 itself or else the offer is gone. I checked that all foreclosure sale of any real estate property in Nevada must be completed between 9AM and 5PM. The sales manager hurried us to process American express transaction before 5PM and the transaction went through at 4:57PM PST.
> 
> Timeshare Liquidators still won't void the contract and says it's binding. When the address of the property itself is wrong, how could a purchase contract be binding?



Sangu, I don't want to wish any bad news on you, but since you signed the contract that said 'ALL SALES FINAL', I think you bought yourself a timeshare. Too bad. If it had been a genuine deal, it still would have been available the next day and the one after that. Could have been worse, though. Someone actually bought this mud week from the developer!

I hope that you are able to convince the reseller to cancel the contract. If they do, it would be purely on their good graces. From what you wrote in the above quoted paragraph about being pressed and hurried, I don't see that they have any incentive to do that. They have a fish on the line (you) and are not going to let you off.

Good luck, but you might start building a fire under this seller to expedite the closing and RCI membership process so you can get some use from the 2012 points they supposedly sold you.

Jim


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## sangu (May 24, 2012)

I am starting to realize that I can not exit. I am in Mass and can not take leave from work to go to Vegas again and again for trials and stuff. With the pressure and tension for the last 2 weeks and time and money that I have to spend for a legal case, I am thinking to take the loss and move on. 

But if they transfer something with an incorrect address I can not resell it or give it away. They are not sending something in writing that they made mistake because that could be a problem for them if I file a case. What should I do now?


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## Passepartout (May 24, 2012)

sangu said:


> But if they transfer something with an incorrect address I can not resell it or give it away. They are not sending something in writing that they made mistake because that could be a problem for them if I file a case. What should I do now?



You're making a mountain out of a mole hill. When you want to sell (unlikely) or give away what you bought, simply make a copy of the deed that you get from the resort as it is recorded with the county where the TS is, and change the names of the owners (you) to the names of the purchasers and forward it to the county for recording. I'm reasonably sure that the county will have the correct legal description of the property.

Jim


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## ronparise (May 24, 2012)

sangu

First of all let me say that I think you were hustled. The tactics used to convince you to buy give all of us "honest" salesman a bad name.  I also think that if you were to pursue this you would win and your monies be returned.

I am however not an attorney and any attorney you might hire will probably cost you more than you have invested.

I see two possibilities for you...1) figure out what you own and how to use it or 2) git rid of it..give it away or sell it to someone else, or pay someone to take it off your hands...or just refuse to pay your maintenance fees when billed, and let the hoa foreclose.

My retorical question for you is; Why did you wait until now to do your homework. The research you are doing now should have been done before you wrote the check?  You know that now, and you knew it then. but the flashing lights and the loud music and a slick salesman took advantage of you.  What happens in Vegas, didnt stay in Vegas this time.

Lesson learned... I bet you wont let that happen again  The maintenance fees will be a constant reminder


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## sangu (May 24, 2012)

Yes. Lesson learned. I will never ever buy or sign something without prior research. 

Now I understood that sometimes losing is a better choice than fighting. Anyway atleast I tried after realizing my mistake. Thank you all your support and suggestion.


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## newbie88jo (Jul 6, 2013)

sangu said:


> Yes. Lesson learned. I will never ever buy or sign something without prior research.
> 
> Now I understood that sometimes losing is a better choice than fighting. Anyway atleast I tried after realizing my mistake. Thank you all your support and suggestion.



Sangu,
I'm likely in the same boat.  did they make good on the trading of points and were they usable?   Lots of what they promised me where a no go in the end.  Did the credit card company support you after you showed them that there was misrepresentation?  Any help from the NV AG or your states AG or representative?


What happens if my wife didn't sign the state of Nevada disclosure?


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## DeniseM (Jul 6, 2013)

This is a 2012 thread, and Sangu hasn't been on TUG for more than a year.  To contact them, click on their blue user name and send them and email.


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## newbie88jo (Jul 11, 2013)

*Call NV AG's office and many of the NV senators 800-992-0900 for help.*



glypnirsgirl said:


> Seems to me that this sale does not fall into the exceptions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



for contact information
Check out:
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/App/Legislator/A/Senate/

The actions taken may prevent other victims.

newbie88jo


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