# 1 Million Platinum Points = How Many Regular Points?



## A.Win (Mar 28, 2014)

It is clear that each of us value VIP differently. 

So EXCLUDING the cost of acquiring this status and the lower MFs, I was wondering how many regular points you would hypothetically want in exchange for 1 million platinum points.

The main benefits are 50% discount, basically free RTs and housekeeping, and upgrades.

The drawbacks are that your points are tied up waiting for the discount and upgrade windows. You end up with lots of points that are at risk of expiring. So these points are difficult to use and must be used on short notice, given away, rented, or thrown into RCI, right? 

Platinum ownership requires much more planning and strategic thinking in order to maximize the discounts and upgrades. Having regular points is so easy to manage. If managed properly, 1 million can translate to 3 million+ points of reservations. If used poorly (never getting discounts and upgrades), it translates to just 1 million regular points.

I'm estimating 1 million platinum = 2 million regular points for me since the upgrades offset the expiring points problem and extra risk, but you all have more experience. Comments?


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 28, 2014)

I have a 1 million point contract at Royal Vista. I take NO discounted reservations, get No upgrades --- as I use the ARP booking window to reserved the very best of PRIME vacation times at this beachfront resort.

AND if you THINK there are Platinum VIP owners who will risk their booked reservations to do a cancel and rebook discount for you --- boy, are you WRONG. Of course, I might have a discounted vacation for you to rent in Weston or on the other side of I-95 near the Everglades --- lots of ground floor units where you can share your patio with gators and lots of bugs. 

And I bet the very same can be said for July weeks in Myrtle Beach, too.


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## Bigrob (Mar 28, 2014)

It's such a big YMMV that you'll get a wide range of answers, and it depends upon how you plan to use the points. 

So for some, who always manage to reap the cancel/rebook/upgrade scenario, you can get points discounted to 80% and beyond. But I think most would agree that is an exception rather than a rule.

For others, it is more realistic to assume only half of the reservations will be at discount so they may only see points discounted 25%

For most, I think the range would hover between 40-50%. But even that pre-supposes "facts not in evidence". For example - if someone books a very high demand interval that will command a significant premium when they rent it, do they care that they can't cancel and rebook it? Probably not. The market price premium in esssence makes up for the lack of points discount.

It would not surprise me at all to see certain large renters here say they only get discounts on 25-30%, because they are booking very high-demand resorts/timeframes that they can't/won't risk losing on a cancel/rebook. But it doesn't matter because they still rent it for 2 or 3X times the underlying MF for the points.

Just be careful. Points are like potato chips. You can never eat just one and never have enough.


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## am1 (Mar 28, 2014)

5 million or so


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## A.Win (Mar 28, 2014)

vacationhopeful said:


> I have a 1 million point contract at Royal Vista. I take NO discounted reservations, get No upgrades --- as I use the ARP booking window to reserved the very best of PRIME vacation times at this beachfront resort.
> 
> AND if you THINK there are Platinum VIP owners who will risk their booked reservations to do a cancel and rebook discount for you --- boy, are you WRONG. Of course, I might have a discounted vacation for you to rent in Weston or on the other side of I-95 near the Everglades --- lots of ground floor units where you can share your patio with gators and lots of bugs.
> 
> And I bet the very same can be said for July weeks in Myrtle Beach, too.



I hope you bought those points resale. You are basically saying that being platinum means almost nothing to you. You value ARP, but not discounts and upgrades.


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 28, 2014)

A.Win said:


> I hope you bought those points resale. You are basically saying that being platinum means almost nothing to you. You value ARP, but not discounts and upgrades.



Got those RV points for $1050 total. But I know of 10-15 multiple million points RV owners who LIVE at RV during the Winter months who BROUGHT all their points from Wyndham. I never mention my ebay points to them.:ignore:


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## lcml11 (Mar 28, 2014)

vacationhopeful said:


> I have a 1 million point contract at Royal Vista. I take NO discounted reservations, get No upgrades --- as I use the ARP booking window to reserved the very best of PRIME vacation times at this beachfront resort.
> 
> AND if you THINK there are Platinum VIP owners who will risk their booked reservations to do a cancel and rebook discount for you --- boy, are you WRONG. Of course, I might have a discounted vacation for you to rent in Weston or on the other side of I-95 near the Everglades --- lots of ground floor units where you can share your patio with gators and lots of bugs.
> 
> And I bet the very same can be said for July weeks in Myrtle Beach, too.



Hey, I was at Edisto with the allegators right outside the back door.  It was great.


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## pacodemountainside (Mar 28, 2014)

lcml11 said:


> Hey, I was at Edisto with the allegators right outside the back door.  It was great.




When are  we going to see you on Discovery or History Channel wrestling  the allegators, or is it gators?


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## lcml11 (Mar 28, 2014)

pacodemountainside said:


> When are  we going to see you on Discovery or History Channel wrestling  the allegators, or is it gators?



Am to old for that.  I will leave that to you.


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## slabeaume (Mar 28, 2014)

JUst saw Royal Vista available for the time we're going to be at Palm Aire next month.  Thought of using our VIP status and switching to RV, but decided we really wanted to be closer to our daughter (in Coral Springs).    But I have stayed at Royal Vista before with out VIP discount---very nice place!


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 28, 2014)

slabeaume said:


> JUst saw Royal Vista available for the time we're going to be at Palm Aire next month.  Thought of using our VIP status and switching to RV, but decided we really wanted to be closer to our daughter (in Coral Springs).    But I have stayed at Royal Vista before with out VIP discount---very nice place!



I would have switched and enjoyed the morning walk along the beach.


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## ronparise (Mar 28, 2014)

I wouldnt exchange my platinum points for more regular points, But its not because I do a lot of cancel and rebookings...I dont. In fact I would rather not do them at all

Like Linda I make my best reservationswell before the 60 day discount window and I try my best to rent them as soon as possible, and once rented I dont try to cancel and rebook

Heres what I use as my guide when I try to put a value on VIP vs regular points

http://www.vacationmanagementservices.com/index.php#points_payout


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## uscav8r (Mar 29, 2014)

ronparise said:


> I wouldnt exchange my platinum points for more regular points, But its not because I do a lot of cancel and rebookings...I dont. In fact I would rather not do them at all
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Interesting service and payout rates. By this measure, Platinum is about 20% better than a regular ownership, and no better than Gold. Obviously that is only how this one service values the different point levels. 

Are the Diamond levels the site mentions akin to Presidential Reserve?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ronparise (Mar 29, 2014)

uscav8r said:


> Interesting service and payout rates. By this measure, Platinum is about 20% better than a regular ownership, and no better than Gold. Obviously that is only how this one service values the different point levels.
> 
> Are the Diamond levels the site mentions akin to Presidential Reserve?
> 
> ...



I dont know anything about Diamond

I work with several "points managers" and know of several others The one I linked to above is the only one that offers to even talk to non VIP owners, For the most part these services will only talk to Platinum and Presidential reserve owners. and generally their rate is about $6/1000 for access to your Platinum account...so using them as a guide, the difference between Platinum and non VIP is infinite

The ops question is a bogus question because he wants to exclude consideration of mf and purchase price..Its the old..."all things being equal" thing...and all things arent equal. There are far too many variables

 I made a deal list night for a million points where the mf is nearly $6/1000 I never would have made such a deal if I didnt have a Platinum account to put the account into, Neither would I have made the deal if I had to pay much more than nothing for it.  On the other hand

Consider a National Harbor contract (mf about $4/1000 )to a Tamarack contract mf over $8/1000).   The National Harbor Contract is worth more to me outside of a Platinum account than Tamarack is in one. But if I had to buy that National Harbor Contract from Wyndham...no deal

So purchase price and mf is key to me if Im trading money for a contract (Platinum account or not) or if i was to trade a contract in a Platinum account for a non VIP contract (the ops question)


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## A.Win (Mar 29, 2014)

Hi Ron,

I found that property management link interesting as well.

I completely understand why my question is uninteresting to you (and many others). But it actually helps me (not sure about others) determine how much they are willing to pay to upgrade to VIP. 

If you consider that the cost of acquiring VIP can be offset by lower MFs, it may be reasonable to exclude these factors. For example, if VIP costs $80,000, but you can save up to $5,000 in MFs each year, I consider that to be almost even. Many others will want a higher return than this though.


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## am1 (Mar 29, 2014)

A.Win said:


> If you consider that the cost of acquiring VIP can be offset by lower MFs, it may be reasonable to exclude these factors. For example, if VIP costs $80,000, but you can save up to $5,000 in MFs each year, I consider that to be almost even. Many others will want a higher return than this though.



Savings $5000 a year is not a reason to spend 80k and Im a pro Platinum owner.


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## ronparise (Mar 29, 2014)

I think this hits the nail on the head

The questions should be:

given that  a platinum account will cost me $xx, and $yy dollars a year

how many points in  regular account will it take to duplicate the benefits? And what are my costs initially and into the future


I've done work assuming a purchase of 1million from Wyndham at about $100000 and  for myself when I went to platinum for $12000
And I'm doing it again since I've been quoted a price of $20000

As you might imagine the results are different each time 

Your calculation will be different of course.because the benefits of platinum are more or less important to you than me.  (Or anyone else for that matter).  I don't do much in the way of cancel and rebook and upgrades but I do use a lot of guest confirms and I farm out a lot of points to the points managers

Tell me how you intend to use your account and how much you have to spend and I can craft the best strategy


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## A.Win (Mar 29, 2014)

ronparise said:


> Tell me how you intend to use your account and how much you have to spend and I can craft the best strategy



For the next few years we will mostly travel as a family. This can mean anywhere from 4 to 20 people. Since we are restricted by school schedules, this means prime season travel. Points will be spent pretty quickly. We like beach locations in the summer and ski locations in the winter. We generally like to visit different locations and also like international travel. 

Further down the road when I stop working, I can probably travel more like Sandy... taking advantage of more discounts and upgrades and last minute specials through RCI, etc.

I am targeting National Harbor because it is close to home. And it is easier to manage in conjuction with my rental apartment in the area too. And of course I like low MFs. 

I would love to explore how you economically convert weeks to points but I'll focus on that lesson later on.


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## am1 (Mar 29, 2014)

ronparise said:


> Tell me how you intend to use your account and how much you have to spend and I can craft the best strategy



As long as the person can execute the strategy and know how the account can and cannot be used.


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## Bigrob (Mar 29, 2014)

A.Win said:


> For the next few years we will mostly travel as a family. This can mean anywhere from 4 to 20 people. Since we are restricted by school schedules, this means prime season travel. Points will be spent pretty quickly. We like beach locations in the summer and ski locations in the winter. We generally like to visit different locations and also like international travel.
> 
> Further down the road when I stop working, I can probably travel more like Sandy... taking advantage of more discounts and upgrades and last minute specials through RCI, etc.
> 
> ...



Two thoughts... You are, at least currently, constrained by school schedules and traveling at peak times to seasonal resorts. You may find you need ARP at the resorts you want rather than National Harbor. 

Second, for the use you've described, I don't see a lot of value in VIP. Would you be willing to risk losing your reservation trying to cancel and rebook? If you take ski vacations in January or February, you can easily find opportunities to use cancelled points and therefore book extras to try cancel rebook... If you miss, just hang on to the last one. But the large point reservations you aren't going to be able to do this unless you have a lot of points to play with, so my guess is, you wouldn't have enough to be protected for cancel rebook and still be early enough for your summer beach trips.

And the other consideration is... VIP benefits can and do change over time. They are not guaranteed, so if you are calculating, you probably want to set a pretty short investment horizon over for the breakeven point. While some use 10 years as a method for evaluating the relative attractiveness of properties based on MF/K rates, you would probably want to use something shorter for VIP value analysis 5-7 years tops.


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## Bigrob (Mar 29, 2014)

A.Win said:


> I would love to explore how you economically convert weeks to points but I'll focus on that lesson later on.



I meant to address this one as well but forgot. You used to be able to convert fixed weeks to points through corporate at about $2500. I have heard that is no longer an option, and even when it was, there weren't any big enough winners to make it worth the cost. Having said that... It could be a strategy to have a couple of 3br lockoff prime fixed weeks at Kingsgate if... And only if... You are going to make the investment to PIC 2 weeks. You could convert the fixed weeks at the same time for like $189 each and then something that was worth nothing before is now worth about $2k at today's prices. To be clear, those weeks will not convert as VIP eligible points (years ago that was one of the loopholes that was closed). But you can sometimes get paid to take a prime 3br lockoff and it will be a source of cheap points when converted (around $4/K).


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## jebloomquist (Mar 30, 2014)

A.Win said:


> It is clear that each of us value VIP differently.
> ....
> The main benefits are 50% discount, basically free RTs and housekeeping, and upgrades.
> ...
> ...



Here is my experience with Platinum points from a different perspective. In 2013 I used a few million with my family and rented about 3.5 million. This got me 390 Wyndham renter night stays, or on average about 8900 points per night, mainly in 2 bedroom units. Most of that was in one very popular resort. My maintenance fees have gone up in 2014 too much, but in 2013 it was about $4.30/1000. So, it cost me under $40 per night to do the rentals. Plus, I didn't run out of guest certificates until November.

Let's see you do that with regular points.

Jim


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## ronparise (Mar 30, 2014)

jebloomquist said:


> Here is my experience with Platinum points from a different perspective. In 2013 I used a few million with my family and rented about 3.5 million. This got me 390 Wyndham renter night stays, or on average about 8900 points per night, mainly in 2 bedroom units. Most of that was in one very popular resort. My maintenance fees have gone up in 2014 too much, but in 2013 it was about $4.30/1000. So, it cost me under $40 per night to do the rentals. Plus, I didn't run out of guest certificates until November.
> 
> Let's see you do that with regular points.
> 
> Jim




Jim

no doubt the Platinum membership was the difference between making a profit on your rentals and breaking even.  In your case  I know about what you paid to get that Platinum account. So in your case I know that that your money was well spent

In the case of the op. He will probably spend more to make the jump to platinum than you did , and his benefits not nearly as great (he probably wont need 30 or more guest certs for example. 

That the move to platinum made sense for you and me does not predict that it will work as well for anyone else....I think the op is right. There is a number of points he can buy to get the same use, as platinum, but do it cheaper than buying platinum.


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## A.Win (Mar 30, 2014)

When reading about how successful Jim, Ron, Linda, and many other Tuggers have been using and renting their points, it is tempting to believe that us regular folks should do the same, whether through platinum or buying lots of resale points.

But the truth is that Tuggers have invested a great deal of time learning about what they own. 

The fact remains that the AVERAGE owner scrambles just to recover MFs, much less recoup their initial investment. The easier path is always to give their unused weeks away.


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## tschwa2 (Mar 30, 2014)

uscav8r said:


> Interesting service and payout rates. By this measure, Platinum is about 20% better than a regular ownership, and no better than Gold. Obviously that is only how this one service values the different point levels.
> 
> Are the Diamond levels the site mentions akin to Presidential Reserve?
> 
> ...



I think by Diamond they mean DRI (Diamond Resorts International points)- notice the $0.12/$0.13 per point instead of per thousand points.


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## ronparise (Mar 30, 2014)

A.Win said:


> When reading about how successful Jim, Ron, Linda, and many other Tuggers have been using and renting their points, it is tempting to believe that us regular folks should do the same, whether through platinum or buying lots of resale points.
> 
> But the truth is that Tuggers have invested a great deal of time learning about what they own.
> 
> The fact remains that the AVERAGE owner scrambles just to recover MFs, much less recoup their initial investment. The easier path is always to give their unused weeks away.



right on all three counts

What we do isnt rocket science. If I can do it anyone can

I have invested a fair amount of time. and I still am. Here it is a sunny  Sunday in SW Florida, I could be sitting by the pool or on my dock with a cold one, but instead Im about to drive to Sarasota to a meeting of the Florida Timeshare Owners Club to meet TugBrian and  some potential new customers, and maybe learn something new.

and it is a scramble to make any money. I make a little on some of what I doo, break even on most, and lose on some. But at the end of the year Im always happy with the results

Just know that  Linda, Jim and I are not the really big players, The big boys are quieter about what they do and play it a little closer to the vest. If you want to learn something you need to watch what they do...assuming you can find one to talk to


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## bnoble (Mar 30, 2014)

There is a more-or-less constant stream of posts by folks trying to figure out a way to make VIP work under the current qualifying rules.  Nearly every single analysis that comes even close to break-even requires (a) a lot of things to line up just right and (b) a non-trivial time horizon over which to recover acquisition costs.  Executing these plans requires work, diligence, and time invested learning the system.

For example, the OP suggested one equivalence rate:


> For example, if VIP costs $80,000, but you can save up to $5,000 in MFs each year, I consider that to be almost even.


Just on a cash flow basis, it takes sixteen years to recover that---during which time, any one of a number of things could change to make VIP more or less valuable.  That's a lot of risk.  And, it completely ignores the time value of money.  $80K today is worth a lot more than $5K/year for 16 years.  How much more depends on a few assumptions, but it's not zero.

(As an aside: if you think the two are the same, I would like to borrow $80K from you today, and I will pay you $5K per year for the next 16 years.  I will take that deal from as many as wish to offer it.  No limit.)

There are a few folks who *have* figured out how to make it work for them, but nearly all of them acquired the necessary qualified points at a price and under qualification rules much more generous than anyone could do so today.  And, nearly all of them are *renting*, not doing this for personal use.

At the end of the day, VIP is a shiny object---something that you can't get without giving Wyndham a lot of money.  Wyndham in turn pays for the various VIP benefits (point discounts, etc.) through sales proceeds.  On average it *has to* cost less to provide those benefits than Wyndham charges for them, else Wyndham would be losing money on their VOI sales---and they are not, not by a long shot.  Therefore, only owners who extract significantly above-average value are getting a "good deal" out of acquiring VIP at today's prices.

By definition, most people are not significantly above average.

Edited to add: About the only way this can ever work is to end up with a qualified account without actually buying it from Wyndham. There are one or two ways to do that---finding a current VIP owner who will work with you and (eventually) will the account to you, for example.  But, that's more effort than most individuals will need to exert for personal use.


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 30, 2014)

A.Win said:


> When reading about how successful Jim, Ron, Linda, and many other Tuggers have been using and renting their points, it is tempting to believe that us regular folks should do the same, whether through platinum or buying lots of resale points.
> 
> But the truth is that Tuggers have invested a great deal of time learning about what they own.
> 
> The fact remains that the AVERAGE owner scrambles just to recover MFs, much less recoup their initial investment. The easier path is always to give their unused weeks away.



And while a business plan may look GOOD and produce a small profit THIS year, it may NOT work at all NEXT YEAR - you may lose money, not rent your offerings or have Wyndham cream your clock.

Some of the changes I have encountered:
*All cancelled bookings showing up at 8AM online - to appearing in seconds after being cancelled. Hence, the cancel & rebook "trick". What happens when WAITLIST starts working?
*Required to cancel reservations 15 days before check in to NOT lose points if YOU are not using the unit.
*Limited number of FREE Guest Certificates for VIPs.
*Buyer acceptance of Craigslist and eBAY rental selling; Megarenters with call centers. Fewer historical timeshare sites funneling renters - older population preferred those sites; under 40s use auction sites (SkyAuction was one besides eBAY). Now, we have HomeAway amd FlipKey sites - non-mmembership sites --- more looky-loos - flakely clients). Deal with a single person who eats several HOURS of your TIME and you start to become a "PROFILER" --- I love the ones who want a full refund because they can save $25 (or does a chargeback in the payment after checking in).
*The ECONOMY, Stupid! with gas & plane tickets soaring.
*The growing smaller older population with the income to travel - I lose more repeat clients due to aging illnesses. What should be their "replacements in the larger aging bubble" is actually smaller - the first BLOCK where there are very limited CORPORATE AMERICA pension plans retirees.
*More inheriting 2nd generation owners HAVING to rent to assist with paying rising MFs - esp where their elders paid $60K-150K for something worth less than $1000. Something is better than nothing.
*Changes with PAYPAL - charge backs and fee costs.

Plus, the traditional checkin days of FRI and SAT are not aligning with the airlines CHEAPER fares. Our younger population is doing long weekend trips (due to less vacation time & multiple workers?), attention spans?, travel costs?. My one resort SOLD units in 2 week blocks as UNION shutdowns had the business closed the first 2 weeks in July. Now, school districts are migrating to less summer down time, but 2 week blocks of being closed thru out the school year (this the start of year round school?).


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 30, 2014)

bnoble said:


> There is a more-or-less constant stream of posts by folks trying to figure out a way to make VIP work under the current qualifying rules.  Nearly every single analysis that comes even close to break-even requires (a) a lot of things to line up just right and (b) a non-trivial time horizon over which to recover acquisition costs.  Executing these plans requires work, diligence, and time invested learning the system. <snip>
> 
> .......



Thanks, Brian ....

I have been around for awhile here, have street credit (repeat customers), know my resorts (aka Miss Ft Lauderdale), have a combination of ARP points and FIXED DEEDED WEEKS with the views .... a portfolio of weeks and unit sizes .... 
And I have read the Member's Directory the required 3 times. 

I would like OP to provide regular updates on his successes here - others have been successful - great to grow smart owners.

My suggestion is GO SLOWLY for the first year - learn the game - it is far easier to BUY points/timeshares than to dump them. Buy what you personally can use, try to rent and if it still empty just before check in, then go use it.


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## A.Win (Apr 1, 2014)

bnoble said:


> For example, the OP suggested one equivalence rate: For example, if VIP costs $80,000, but you can save up to $5,000 in MFs each year, I consider that to be almost even.
> 
> Just on a cash flow basis, it takes sixteen years to recover that---during which time, any one of a number of things could change to make VIP more or less valuable.  That's a lot of risk.  And, it completely ignores the time value of money.  $80K today is worth a lot more than $5K/year for 16 years.  How much more depends on a few assumptions, but it's not zero.
> 
> (As an aside: if you think the two are the same, I would like to borrow $80K from you today, and I will pay you $5K per year for the next 16 years.  I will take that deal from as many as wish to offer it.  No limit.)



If you could pay me $5K forever (not just 16 years), I'd be happy to give you $80K. This represents a 6.25% return. If you were to buy a fixed annuity for your lifetime, you would probably receive half as much from the insurance company. Or if you had a pension worth $80K, your employer would give you about half of $5K per year for life.


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## bnoble (Apr 1, 2014)

And you are convinced that nothing will change in a way that changes that ROI, ever, right?

The problem isn't that *eventually* you can make it back.  The problem is that the time horizon of payback is so long that you are subject to a lot of risk in the meantime.  For example, what happens if your family circumstances change in a way that sharply reduces your ability to travel and/or your ability to run a labor-intensive rental service?  What happens when (not if) Wyndham changes the VIP rules again?

At the risk of repeating myself: VIP is a shiny object.  Wyndham has to spend less on average than it costs to provide.  Average owners lose money on VIP.  By definition, most people are not significantly above average.  You could be the exception.  But the odds say that you aren't.


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## A.Win (Apr 1, 2014)

BNoble,

I agree with you completely. TUG members enjoy or are willing to spend time learning about their benefits. They probably benefit from VIP. I agree that the average VIP member is not maximizing their usage and these are the ones that Wyndham profits from. Many just try to recover the MF and consider their large up-front investment as lost money.

I also benefit from being a bit younger than average. And I know that my kids love traveling and will be able to benefit from being VIP too. So I'm hoping we have 60+ years of VIP usage.


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## SMHarman (Apr 1, 2014)

and you think VIP usage as it looks now will look the same in 2074?


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## am1 (Apr 1, 2014)

A.Win said:


> BNoble,
> 
> I agree with you completely. TUG members enjoy or are willing to spend time learning about their benefits. They probably benefit from VIP. I agree that the average VIP member is not maximizing their usage and these are the ones that Wyndham profits from. Many just try to recover the MF and consider their large up-front investment as lost money.
> 
> I also benefit from being a bit younger than average. And I know that my kids love traveling and will be able to benefit from being VIP too. So I'm hoping we have 60+ years of VIP usage.



Than all signs say go for it.  It is a risk but the worst that will happen is you will be out 80k less the amount you saved and probably take too many vacations in a larger room then you need.  

Just remember renting is not easy.


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## pacodemountainside (Apr 1, 2014)

*Fairshare  Vacation Plan Use Management Trust*

There is  no doubt VIP  is  a big money maker for Wyndham  and if  some  aspect gets too expensive they can just change/eliminate it!

Based on  audited financials  for 2012, 2013 will be   presented  at big meeting in  May,    it  only cost Wyndham  $12.5 million  for  2012 VIP  benefits which when divided by   around 187K  VIPs is around $67  per person.

In addition  have  to replace    discount  and upgrade points with  unsold  Developer inventory. By law Wyndham has  to pay MF on this, so  good place to dump unrented inventory.   This  expense just gets  buried in    around 60%  selling expenses. 

Clearly  savvy Platinum VIPs  are  getting  lots of bang for their  bucks,  but the rest of  us just contributed to Wyndham's meteoric  stock price  increase!


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## bnoble (Apr 1, 2014)

> Than all signs say go for it.


Yep.  You've convinced yourself that you are an exception.  It's not my money, so I'll stop trying to talk you out of it.


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## Bigrob (Apr 1, 2014)

I am not quite sure I understand where the "VIP Discounts" come from.

I'll over-simplify (as trying to look at the entire set of Wyndham inventory including sold/unsold would be too daunting). Let's say Wyndham has a single shiny timeshare project. 1,000,000,000 UDI. Of this 800,000,000 is sold, 150,000,000 unsold, and 50,000,000 non-performing (deadbeat owners not paying MFs). 

Of the 800,000,000 points owned, 300,000,000 are owned by platinum VIP members.

The 1,000,000,000 total UDI points are calculated based on the point values of all units at par (non-discounted) for all time intervals. But now, some of those 300,000 point reservations are being booked for 50,000 by VIP platinum owners who get the 50% discount and upgrade from a 1BR to a 3BR.

There are only 200,000,000 "extra" points available. So in theory, only 667 upgrades of this type would be available, and then for each discount there would be points left with nothing available to book.

Even the simple example isn't really simple. I guess the bottom line is, is there (soon) a tipping point at which the number of discounted VIP reservations essentially equates to every resort having been "oversold" - like the early days of timeshare when more intervals were sold than were available with the hopes that people wouldn't book?


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 1, 2014)

Eric,
There is *unsold inventory *at all the resorts .. even the sold out resorts. 
If I* trade *in a contract for a new resort's points, those USED Points timeshares are Wyndham's responsibility. 
Turning *points in for cash*; the cash comes from Wyndham but the deeply discounted points are also Wyndham's.

I am sure others will add more examples.


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## A.Win (Apr 1, 2014)

I am convinced that VIP is a very valuable benefit. I am NOT yet convinced that Platinum is worth $80,000. Or even $60,000. I already invested a lot to get to Gold. So I am not starting from nothing.

Knowing what I know now, my strategy would probably be to make friends with an old VIP owner and use or rent his VIP account... and possibly inherit it for much less than I spent.

I will have a sales meeting coming up and I'm anxious to see what I will be offered. I suspect their price will be too high, and I will remain at Gold. When I am certain that I will travel more and definitely need the points, then I may do the upgrade later. But for now, any shortages can be filled by renting or making exchanges.


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## Bigrob (Apr 1, 2014)

You could also look at winpointvip. 10k instead of 80k. But then you have to pay for points as you use them.


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## uscav8r (Apr 1, 2014)

A.Win said:


> I am convinced that VIP is a very valuable benefit. I am NOT yet convinced that Platinum is worth $80,000. Or even $60,000. I already invested a lot to get to Gold. So I am not starting from nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's not that Platinum is valuable, but rather, how much more valuable is it than your current Gold status. It seems you are talking yourself into a little bang for a lot of bucks. 

There is a pretty big jump in benefits (mostly due to the unlimited RTs) from Silver to Gold, but not much from Gold to Platinum for the mostly-personal-use-owner. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ronparise (Apr 1, 2014)

Bigrob said:


> I am not quite sure I understand where the "VIP Discounts" come from.
> 
> I'll over-simplify (as trying to look at the entire set of Wyndham inventory including sold/unsold would be too daunting). Let's say Wyndham has a single shiny timeshare project. 1,000,000,000 UDI. Of this 800,000,000 is sold, 150,000,000 unsold, and 50,000,000 non-performing (deadbeat owners not paying MFs).
> 
> ...



Eric.  

I got into an argument not long ago on the Worldmark forum with some folks that wanted to see the club closed to new growth. ie no new resorts. If there was no new development, there would be no need for a developer, and no need for a sales staff, and Wyndham (the evil empire) would go away

I argued that if the club stops growing it dies. I equated it to a sold out, floating timeshare resort, where there is exactly enough time for all the owners. If 10 units sit vacant at the beginning of the year, there will be 10 owners at the end of the year that get nothing for their mf. and thats a recipe for disaster.  We need the unsold inventory to provide the "room" for the flexibility of the system

Its the same argument with Wyndham, at least I think so.  The unsold inventory is needed to provide enough inventory so that we can all have something  decent, available to us, whenever we choose to make our reservation. and its this "slush" that gives Wyndham what they need to provide the benefits to VIP owners..  Without it the VIP discounts will dry up
and so will availability for everyone

If we arent growing we are dying


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## Ron2 (Apr 2, 2014)

Bigrob said:


> I am not quite sure I understand where the "VIP Discounts" come from......
> 
> ....Even the simple example isn't really simple. I guess the bottom line is, is there (soon) a tipping point at which the number of discounted VIP reservations essentially equates to every resort having been "oversold" - like the early days of timeshare when more intervals were sold than were available with the hopes that people wouldn't book?



I think VIP benefits have far less impact on availability of units than does the PIC program. The VIP benefits for the most part don’t kick in until the end of the reservation cycle where as PIC points can be used at the 10-month Standard Reservation window. PIC points are not backed by any Wyndham UDI or CWA contracts yet they have the same use value as cancelled points and when in the account of a VIP owner, they too can be used for the VIP benefits. I think that the “tipping point” that you refer to is going to be triggered by the millions or billions of points that have been inserted into the system through the PIC Program.


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## comicbookman (Apr 2, 2014)

Ron2 said:


> I think VIP benefits have far less impact on availability of units than does the PIC program. The VIP benefits for the most part don’t kick in until the end of the reservation cycle where as PIC points can be used at the 10-month Standard Reservation window. PIC points are not backed by any Wyndham UDI or CWA contracts yet they have the same use value as cancelled points and when in the account of a VIP owner, they too can be used for the VIP benefits. I think that the “tipping point” that you refer to is going to be triggered by the millions or billions of points that have been inserted into the system through the PIC Program.




Presumably, Wyndham uses the pic weeks to satisfy it's obligations to RCI and II whenever possible.  This would provide a safety valve.  If that is the case, I would expect Wyndham, given that they encourage owners to pic, to come out ahead from a points perspective.  (give an owner x points for their pic, but assign a higher value when banking it with RCI or II)  Of course this is pure speculation on my part.


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## Bigrob (Apr 2, 2014)

Ron2 said:


> I think VIP benefits have far less impact on availability of units than does the PIC program. The VIP benefits for the most part don’t kick in until the end of the reservation cycle where as PIC points can be used at the 10-month Standard Reservation window. PIC points are not backed by any Wyndham UDI or CWA contracts yet they have the same use value as cancelled points and when in the account of a VIP owner, they too can be used for the VIP benefits. I think that the “tipping point” that you refer to is going to be triggered by the millions or billions of points that have been inserted into the system through the PIC Program.



This is a very interesting point. However, I wonder if they can offset this because they can "reserve" unsold inventory (at the real value rather than the retail value) because in order to PIC anything, you have to pay the grossly inflated retail prices. The other aspect is, with a limit of 2 PICs and the qualification rules, my guess is that there are relatively few PIC points versus total VIP-eligible points.


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## jjmanthei05 (Apr 2, 2014)

ronparise said:


> I wouldnt exchange my platinum points for more regular points, But its not because I do a lot of cancel and rebookings...I dont. In fact I would rather not do them at all
> 
> Like Linda I make my best reservationswell before the 60 day discount window and I try my best to rent them as soon as possible, and once rented I dont try to cancel and rebook
> 
> ...



I would agree. Those are about the prices that I pay for my rental contracts. 

Jason


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## A.Win (Apr 4, 2014)

After succeeding with cancel and rebook about 7 times, it failed recently. I was surprised because it was not a particularly popular week. The rep actually jinxed me because she said she had never lost one before.

As a result of this incident, I am downgrading the value of being VIP.

Maybe 1 million platinum = 1.75 million regular points for me now.


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## Bigrob (Apr 4, 2014)

A.Win said:


> After succeeding with cancel and rebook about 7 times, it failed recently. I was surprised because it was not a particularly popular week. The rep actually jinxed me because she said she had never lost one before.
> 
> As a result of this incident, I am downgrading the value of being VIP.
> 
> Maybe 1 million platinum = 1.75 million regular points for me now.



remember it is not cancel rebook anymore. It is rebook cancel. Unless you don't already have a use for it and you made it speculatively, it's not worth risking a reservation you might not get back. and it seems that folks have been missing more recently.


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## ronparise (Apr 5, 2014)

Bigrob said:


> remember it is not cancel rebook anymore. It is rebook cancel. Unless you don't already have a use for it and you made it speculatively, it's not worth risking a reservation you might not get back. and it seems that folks have been missing more recently.



So are you saying you need to make the new reservation in the discount window, before you cancel the old one?   That wont work for those of us that rent, because if there is something available in the discount window, it probably doesnt have any value as a rental

I agree the week has to be available in the discount window to be safe, but the idea is to make your own availability.   The strategy is to make multiple 2 and 3 bedroom reservations at 13 months, and just a few studios or one bedrooms for a time and place that you know will rent well, and that will be sold out at the 60 day mark. 

when inside the 60 day mark, cancel and re book the studio...If it works you get it back at half the points.  if it doesnt work...stop now, dont risk canceling the larger units. But if you get your studio back, cancel one of the larger units and up grade the studio into it.... and then immediately re book the studio...

So now you have a studio at half price and a 3 bedroom at half the studio price.....do it again, and again and again. If you lose one....stop, and be happy with what you have

But if it works, you will have several two and three bedroom units at half the studio price and one studio....Plus a ton of cancelled points


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## Bigrob (Apr 5, 2014)

ronparise said:


> So are you saying you need to make the new reservation in the discount window, before you cancel the old one?   That wont work for those of us that rent, because if there is something available in the discount window, it probably doesnt have any value as a rental
> 
> I agree the week has to be available in the discount window to be safe, but the idea is to make your own availability.   The strategy is to make multiple 2 and 3 bedroom reservations at 13 months, and just a few studios or one bedrooms for a time and place that you know will rent well, and that will be sold out at the 60 day mark.
> 
> ...



Yes... I agree, I know that's what a lot of folks are doing especially with lots of points and the right ARP. (or right at the 10-month window). I know Jason works this process very well.

I am referring to more of the "on-demand" rental model, where the renter tells you what to book rather than booking in advance based on knowing what will rent and where there may be fewer discretionary points to tie up in speculative reservations.

Also, about half of the rental requests I get are within the discount window. I can't always fill them, but often I can. So I'm not sure I agree that if something is available within the discount window it doesn't have rental value. That may be true in some specific areas with very seasonal demand, but it's not true everywhere.


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## ronparise (Apr 5, 2014)

Bigrob said:


> Also, about half of the rental requests I get are within the discount window. I can't always fill them, but often I can. So I'm not sure I agree that if something is available within the discount window it doesn't have rental value. That may be true in some specific areas with very seasonal demand, but it's not true everywhere.



I agree, just like men and women, there is someone for everyone. and there is someone for every timeshare week, but these are special requests.  You cant anticipate them. and you cant count on them. I contend that you have to be lucky to match a last minute request with last minute availability...and Im not going to count on luck

Thats why I have so damned many Wyndham points (and Worldmark Credits and floating week) I tie a lot of it up for 10-13 months in speculative bookings and I want points available for those last minute requests


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