# Just bought MVC, threatened to cancel offered me Resale thru them



## S8Farm (Oct 1, 2015)

I went to my 5th MVC presentation and was finally sold.  My parents have been in the program for years and love it.  We have benefited greatly.  I have a good job, am very flexible, and have disposable income.  After doing more research I'm scaring myself out of it.  I know I'm paying a premium for points but do like the convenience aspect.  That said I emailed my salesman letting him know I'm thinking of canceling.  I told him I've learned a lot about resales since and have a hard time paying more than double what they are going for on the secondary market  I voiced other concerns with availability and things I have read on this site.  First they said that if I buy secondary market points I will not have all the benefits that I am getting with them (concierge, extra incentive points etc.) but I also will only be able to book 60 days in advance (which makes it really tough). That kind of pisses me off because then I don't really "own" anything at all if I cant resale it to people with the same benefits.   

Well now they are offering my the "hybrid". They say if I KEEP my original package I can buy a week thru them that I can convert to 1900 points for about $5500.  They are going to waive the $2300 conversion fee (I'm sure ONLY because I'm within my 10 days of canceling).  My question is, is that true? Do you have to already be a Marriott member to purchase resale? And are ALL of the benefits really the same if I purchase thru them.  

So they really got me because I called to cancel but now they are potentially getting me to spend more money with them.  I spoke with my dad and he seems to think its a good deal. But I hate that I'm paying $23000 for 2000 pts and then just another $5500 for another 1900 pts ...


----------



## kds4 (Oct 1, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> I went to my 5th MVC presentation and was finally sold.  My parents have been in the program for years and love it.  We have benefited greatly.  I have a good job, am very flexible, and have disposable income.  After doing more research I'm scaring myself out of it.  I know I'm paying a premium for points but do like the convenience aspect.  That said I emailed my salesman letting him know I'm thinking of canceling.  I told him I've learned a lot about resales since and have a hard time paying more than double what they are going for on the secondary market  I voiced other concerns with availability and things I have read on this site.  First they said that if I buy secondary market points I will not have all the benefits that I am getting with them (concierge, extra incentive points etc.) but I also will only be able to book 60 days in advance (which makes it really tough). That kind of pisses me off because then I don't really "own" anything at all if I cant resale it to people with the same benefits.
> 
> Well now they are offering my the "hybrid". They say if I KEEP my original package I can buy a week thru them that I can convert to 1900 points for about $5500.  They are going to waive the $2300 conversion fee (I'm sure ONLY because I'm within my 10 days of canceling).  My question is, is that true? Do you have to already be a Marriott member to purchase resale? And are ALL of the benefits really the same if I purchase thru them.
> 
> So they really got me because I called to cancel but now they are potentially getting me to spend more money with them.  I spoke with my dad and he seems to think its a good deal. But I hate that I'm paying $23000 for 2000 pts and then just another $5500 for another 1900 pts ...



There are many posts/threads on the benefit of owning weeks, points, and/or both. If I was as unsure as you appear to be from your post, I believe I would cancel, do more research, and then reapproach buying points from Marriott at a future date (if that is what I ultimately decided I wanted to do) or proceed with researching/buying a resale week. 

There's no emergency to 'Buy from Marriott today or you'll regret it'. In reality you may find the complete opposite to be true if you proceed (and end up regretting your points purchase).

Just my opinion. Good luck.


----------



## jimf41 (Oct 1, 2015)

Welcome to TUG.

Looks like what they offered you works out to $7.30 per point. Not cheap but better than the $12.92 they are going for retail from MVC. The resale value of the 2000 trust points  is about $5 PP or $10,000 currently. The resale value of the week they are selling you is probably 50-60% of their selling price.

Whether you take the deal or not depends on so many factors it's hard to advise you. The basic TUG mantra is rescind and buy resale. Hard to argue with that because you could buy two Ocean Pointe OF 2b Plat weeks for that same $28,500 and have two deeds and two pretty good traders at one on the nicest MVC resorts. The resale value of those weeks would be pretty close to what you paid for them.

What you wouldn't be able to do is convert those weeks to DC points and use them in the DC exchange market. The DC exchange offers a lot of flexibility and better chance of getting a prime week IMO.

The concierge is joke. That's the person who calls you up and week before your stay and gets you to sign up for the show (sales presentation). The 60 day nonsense is absolute BS but I'll let one of the folks that actually bought resale points chime in and explain that.

Here's the bottom line. If you rescind, the same deal or better will be offered to you again. Unless you really want to do this deal right now I'd cancel and take my time doing a little research so you feel good about your decision. It seems to me you're a little hesitant to get your feet wet right now and that's a good thing.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 1, 2015)

I have been thinking about becoming a member for quite some time.  I might have joined a year ago but the sales lady was just so condescending and rude she could have offered it for 1/3 of the price and I wouldn't have bought from her.  I never had any reservations till I started reading online.  Like I said my parents have LOVED it and we have greatly benefited from it.

My biggest reservation on outside resales is I love the points system and I love Marriott.  I know a lot of people don't (like the points) but the flexibility is really what gets me excited.  One responder said that 2000 doesn't get you much but the way I travel I feel like it can get me a lot (I used my parents login to see what I can get), so adding another 1900 makes me feel like it's a ton.  I'm 33, work from home, have 3 younger kids and my wife doesn't work.  I have no problem waiting till Sept or just when the points go down to book a vacation. And if there are ever any good deals that pop up I can drop what I'm doing and go (as long as gma can watch em).  

So that's a little more about my situation.  What I would love to understand better is a few on here have said I can buy 3 prime weeks for $28k and just trade, thus getting me much better value so here are my questions.  a) can I finance those (outside of doing a HELOC)  b) how much work goes into trading ... points just seem so simple and my other hesitation is that we like going to new different places, owning at a single location doesn't appeal a ton to me so how easy is trading and c) can you trade these other timeshares for Marriott's or are those exclusive to others.

And lastly yes I would love to hear about this whole 60 day booking if I purchase outside of the program.  Has anyone here bought Marriott points outside of Marriott and is it just as easy to book?  I've now had 2 people from Marriott say the benefits are different and I'd only have 60 days to book.  

Thanks for all the input!


----------



## BJRSanDiego (Oct 1, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> ...I would love to hear about this whole 60 day booking if I purchase outside of the program. ...



I believe from what I've read is there is no 60 day restriction on points bought on secondary market.  I think that the sales people are telling you BS.

I know for a fact that there is no restriction on weeks bought on the secondary market (before or after the cutoff date of June 2010).


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 1, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> And lastly yes I would love to hear about this whole 60 day booking if I purchase outside of the program.  Has anyone here bought Marriott points outside of Marriott and is it just as easy to book?  I've now had 2 people from Marriott say the benefits are different and I'd only have 60 days to book.



The 60 day booking restriction does apply if you do not pay MVC the junk fees to open up the resale points for unrestricted access.  The junk fees currently amount to about $2 per point....so if you buy your points resale for $5 a point (assumed price to pass ROFR) you would also have to pay MVC $2 a point to be able to fully use them.  As long as you pay the junk fees, you would be ok.

I encourage you to read the Points FAQ sticky to learn all there is to learn about the points system.


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 1, 2015)

As Jimf41 pointed out, by adding the resale week, you drop the cost to $7.30/point for the total package. If you bought resale points, you could probably buy them for around $5/point, but would then have to pay Marriott $2 more per point to fully activate them in the system, so your total cost would also be around $7/point for resale points.

The sales rep is correct that if you just buy resale points at $5/point you will be restricted to reserving only 60 days out. But what he didn't tell you is that, as Fasttr points out, by paying the $2/point activation fee to Marriott, those points then become fully usable just like any other points - with the exception that Marriott has the right to not allow those points to be exchanged for Marriott Reward points and they also might be restricted from booking the Explorer Collection tour packages and such (but Rewards Points and Explorer Collection do not offer the best value per point anyway, so that may not be a big loss).

So, you could buy 3900 resale points for about $7/point (all in with the Marriott fees) or do the hybrid package at about $7.30. Of those two, I would recommend the hybrid because 1) the cost is about the same and you have the security of knowing that it was bought from Marriott and as a result will never be restricted in usage rights compared to other owners; and 2) You will also have a deeded week that you have the option to use as a deeded week in the traditional trading system. Something like having a piece in both games.

As far as points vs trading, you will get many different opinions on TUG on that question. Many on TUG are long time weeks owners, so they love the weeks-based system. You can definitely get more value per dollar with weeks trading than points, but for the reason outlined below, I prefer points, despite the higher cost.

With traditional trading, you put in a request for where you want to go and then wait for Interval International to come up with a match. Sometimes it happens soon (or there might even be inventory sitting there to book immediately if it's off season), other times you have to wait for months, and other times a match may never happen. It depends on the trading power of the week you are trading and the demand for the week you are searching for. Personally, I've never liked that process with the accompanying uncertainty and waiting, so I much prefer the points system. 

With points, the process is a little more straight-forward in my opinion. You can go online and see availability just like booking a hotel room online. It's all still subject to availability, so if you want a high demand season/location, you better be online right when the inventory is released. I am a relatively new owner myself, having bought in summer 2014 with a hybrid package similar to what they pitched you. We've been very pleased with the location availability in the DC points system. Points also have the advantage of being able to book shorter stays, long weekends, or longer stays of 8, 9, 10, etc days, whereas with traditional weeks trading, it has to be done in seven-day increments.


----------



## gmarine (Oct 1, 2015)

Id pass on this purchase and take your time to do more research to see if you really want to spend $28K on a timeshare.  One thing to add.  It sounds to me like you want to finance this purchase.  Financing $28K for a timeshare is not advisable. By the time you add the interest on top of your maintenance fees you could simply rent anywhere you want for less money and not be stuck with ever increasing maintenance fees.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 1, 2015)

They offered an incentive that if we finance for 18 months they will give us another 2000 pts.  Did the math and it seems like I get paid back my finance charges thru points if I pay it off or refi.  After that I will just swallow it in my HELOC as my interest is so low I'd rather have the funds available than have it all in a timeshare.  I'll just accelerate the payments and write off the interest.  But you bring up a good point about renting.  I've seen a little on that.  How difficult is it to rent points or a timeshare.  I'm assuming its not as flexible as the points but is it pretty easy to maneuver?


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 1, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> They offered an incentive that if we finance for 18 months they will give us another 2000 pts.  Did the math and it seems like I get paid back my finance charges thru points if I pay it off or refi.



Just want to make sure you realize those are 2000 single use points, meaning you only get them once.  You can rent those for about $1000, so that is the real value of those.


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 1, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> They offered an incentive that if we finance for 18 months they will give us another 2000 pts.  Did the math and it seems like I get paid back my finance charges thru points if I pay it off or refi.  After that I will just swallow it in my HELOC as my interest is so low I'd rather have the funds available than have it all in a timeshare.  I'll just accelerate the payments and write off the interest.  But you bring up a good point about renting.  I've seen a little on that.  How difficult is it to rent points or a timeshare.  I'm assuming its not as flexible as the points but is it pretty easy to maneuver?



You can rent Marriott Vacation Club timeshares on Marriott.com just like hotels, but not every room size or view is available. You can go online and shop and see what the rates are. You can rent by the night or as many nights as you want.

Many people also rent direct from owners through web sites like Redweek.com or VRBO. These owner-to-owner rentals are generally much cheaper than Marriott.com. Personally, I've never been comfortable with such rentals since it requires trusting someone you don't know based on an internet rental posting. Most such rentals require upfront payment and are non-refundable if your plans change. The reservation stays in that owners name in Marriott's system, but you as the renter are just listed as an "additional guest."

Once you are a points owner and have a DC Points account, you can "rent" additional points from web sites like http://vacationpointexchange.com in years when your travel needs require more points than you own. Through VPE you pay another owner who has excess points to transfer those single-use year points to your account. Once they are transferred they are your points to use that year just like any other points and any reservation you make is your reservation, in your name only. The going rate is around $0.50 per point, or about the same cost as the annual maintenance fees. I prefer this approach to regular owner rentals because the trust factor only lasts as long as it takes you to pay the owner through PayPal and for them to get the points into your account. Often that's just minutes. With a VRBO or Redweek rental, the trust has to last all the way to check-in.

Folks who are not DC Points owners can still have an existing points owner make a reservation for them, but that essentially has the same issues and risks as the Redweek or VRBO rentals.


----------



## vacationhopeful (Oct 1, 2015)

Never call the salesman/woman to cancel a Timeshare purchase ... they will cut the price and throw MORE slop into the bucket so as to confuse you PAST the RESCIND WINDOW.

Certified Mail/Return Receipt with "I am exercising my option to cancel Such&Such contract (number) brought on 9/30/15."

The next sales presentation will be a better deal ... they will cancel the contract, but eventually, they will sweeten the deal.


----------



## davidvel (Oct 1, 2015)

Sounds to me you're really trying to justify the purchase for some reason. Have you honestly looked at what you can get for this purchase?

Aside from a few tricked out specialty (event weeks) that may be bookable through points, a retail purchase of points (especially financed) is almost always way more than just renting the rooms from Marriott. 

Where are you most likely to go with your 2000 points for $23,000 + interest + $1000 per year MF (every year forever)? Until you figure this out, then figure what the nightly rate is for what you're getting compared to renting the rooms directly, you have no idea what you bought. Not knowing where you'd go most often, I choose Oceanwatch for an example: 


> Summer, 2 bedroom oceanview (not oceanside or oceanfront). You could get a weekend, if its available, (2 nights) for your 2000 points.You'd have a few points left for a midweek day in winter, worth about $140. Averaged over 20 years, that would be 23,000/20=$1,150 + $1000 MF = $2,150-$140=2,010 or *$1,005 PER NIGHT.* (Not counting interest ($2,000/yr?) if you borrow.)


At least you're flexible! 

I'm not analyzing the hybrid route, and this is just one scenario. If you're honest about where you want to stay, you can do your own calculation, but it will always cost you at least $2,000/year given what you bought.


----------



## Password is taco (Oct 1, 2015)

To the OP, I'm in a similar boat as you - same age, couple kids, and looking to get into the timeshare game.  In my analysis, I just don't see the value in the points program.  It's very expensive upfront which seems to completely wipe away any benefit to owning.  Your main attraction to the points program seems to be flexibility, but the ultimate in flexibility is not buying a timeshare and paying as you go.  You should try and calculate a break even on the points purchase and see how many years it will take to justify the purchase versus paying as you go.  For me, if it was more than 10 years, I wasn't interested

For me, I've decided to buy a week at a resort that my family and I will go frequently.  We can also afford to buy a week without financing, which as someone else mentioned, financing a timeshare further reduced the benefit of owning.


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 1, 2015)

I agree with the advice to not finance or at the very least to pay it off with a HELOC as soon as you can. HELOC money is dirt cheap after tax these days. But I disagree that points are not economical, especially for someone your age with many years to spread the up front costs. Renting a timeshare resort is very expensive and I do not think rental compares well to points ownership.

With your hybrid purchase, you would be getting 3900 points instead of  2000. Using the same OceanWatch example, that would get you at least a week in any 2BR view category from August 14 through May 14. 

In Dec, Jan, Feb:  You could book three weeks in Ocean Front, plus enough points left over for five or six extra days; You could book Four+ weeks in Ocean Side; or Five+ weeks in Ocean View 

In Mar, Sept, Oct, or Nov: In Ocean Front, you could book one full week, and by renting an extra 450 points at a cost of $225, you could book two full weeks. In Ocean Side, you would have just enough to book two full weeks with no additional point rental required.

In April, May, and late Aug through early Sep: Book a full week in any view category, with anywhere from 400 to 1,225 points left over for other trips.

In Summer - May 15 through August 13 - You could book OceanWatch Garden View or Ocean View and have points left over. If you wanted Ocean Side, you would need to rent 275 points ($138) or for Ocean Front you would need to rent 775 points ($388).

In lieu of renting points, you could bank or borrow from another year for free as long as in the years you pulled points from, you chose a vacation that didn't take as many points.

At your age, 33, you could easily spread your upfront purchase over 40 or 45 years of usage - so assuming you find a way to minimize or eliminate interest expense in the short run you cost would be about $2,000/yr for maintenance fees plus $600 to $700 per year amortizing the $28,000 upfront costs. So a total cost of $2,700 per year would yield the following costs per night:

$386/night for one week
$193/night for two weeks
$129/night for three weeks
$ 96/night for four weeks

Summer rates at OceanWatch on Marriott.com range from $669/night+taxes for Garden View to $749/night+ taxes for oceanfront. That's probably pushing $6,000 for an oceanfront week when taxes are added in. Even in the lowest January and February off season months, Gardenview rooms rent for $139/night +taxes.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 1, 2015)

davidvel said:


> Sounds to me you're really trying to justify the purchase for some reason. Have you honestly looked at what you can get for this purchase?
> 
> Aside from a few tricked out specialty (event weeks) that may be bookable through points, a retail purchase of points (especially financed) is almost always way more than just renting the rooms from Marriott.
> 
> ...




I'm not trying to convince myself. Thru my research on here I've noticed that many of you aren't pro points.  So as I talk to you I'm trying to be a critical thinker opposite of the popular view and as I talk to Marriott I'm using your arguments, I just want to do the right thing   So here's my math that shows me its not a terrible deal:

With 3900 points I feel like (with the way we travel) I can get about 3-4 weeks if I'm smart with my points.  I played around on my parents account for a few hours and if I do several 5 night stays and a few 2-3 night stays off peak then I'm good.  I was surprised I could get Maui and Kuai at a studio for 5 nights (wouldn't bring the kids) for around 1500 points in Sept. Sept/Oct I can get Orlando and HH resorts for a week for about the same as well. My wifes family is from Northern Cali and Tahoe off peak is pretty cheap as well.  Like I said I'm very flexible with travel dates so I don't need to go during peak.  So with that said for just 3 weeks I would surely spend about $220 night at a decent resort.  $220x21 days is $4620 (if I can get 4 weeks then its $6160).  My payment for the first 18 months is about $300/month and my MFs would be $2k/year. So I'm paying about $466 month ($5592 year).  But once that's paid for then my annual cost goes to $2k ( though I know those will rise).  So I'm paying $2k a year to vacation from 2 weeks (if I splurge) to 4 weeks.  And have the flexibility of points.  So for me MF's are going to have to really skyrocket past wherever rental or hotel prices are for this to not seem worth it.  

If I'm 60 years old then maybe the long term benefit is there but if I divide this ($28k + MF's) over the next 40-50 years then at $7 point I see some great benefits.  Owning at a single place holds no appeal to me, I know I can trade but as some other commenters have mentioned I would rather not sweat that out.  

I'm sure I'm annoying some of you and you just think I'm being stubborn but I am analyzing this thing to death.  I have no problem walking away but I feel like I've squeezed as much as I can out of them and am ready to pull the trigger (well not cancel) if I can't talk myself out of it.  (That's just how I do things).

So is my math crazy? what am I missing?  I know we don't know where MF's will be in 20 years and that's the only thing I don't love about this program. Does my other math make sense considering my age and the fact that I'm getting about $7 a point?


----------



## gmarine (Oct 1, 2015)

One comment about financing using a HELOC. Yes, its cheaper interest. But if for some unforeseen reason you are unable to pay that loan you are effectively risking your home for the purchase of a timeshare. 

Regarding renting, I would consider the private rental rates rather than the rack rates. You can pretty much rent anywhere, anytime for very close to or not that much more than maintenance fees.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 1, 2015)

gmarine said:


> One comment about financing using a HELOC. Yes, its cheaper interest. But if for some unforeseen reason you are unable to pay that loan you are effectively risking your home for the purchase of a timeshare.
> 
> Regarding renting, I would consider the private rental rates rather than the rack rates. You can pretty much rent anywhere, anytime for very close to or not that much more than maintenance fees.



I have the money to pay it off.  I just like the tax advantage and low interest rates.  To me liquidity is more important than paying a few points in interest.  Heaven knows that this ISN'T a real estate investment with any equity involved haha


----------



## Password is taco (Oct 1, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> I agree with the advice to not finance or at the very least to pay it off with a HELOC as soon as you can. HELOC money is dirt cheap after tax these days. But I disagree that points are not economical, especially for someone your age with many years to spread the up front costs. Renting a timeshare resort is very expensive and I do not think rental compares well to points ownership.
> 
> With your hybrid purchase, you would be getting 3900 points instead of  2000. Using the same OceanWatch example, that would get you at least a week in any 2BR view category from August 14 through May 14.
> 
> ...



To me $10,000 to $12,000 upfront and $1100 maintenance fee for a platinum week at a desireable location sounds a lot better than $28,000 upfront and a $2,000 maintenance fee that is also work one platinum week at a desireable location.  If it's flexibility your after, it seems less flexible to buy into a program rather than pay as you go.


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 1, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> My parents have been in the program for years and love it.



Are your parent's weeks enrolled in the points program?  It sounds like they are since you are using their account to search availability.  If so, why not just rent whatever points you need using their account.  You pay to rent the points and just use their points account as a vehicle to receive the rental points and to book your ressies.  By doing that, you get to book using the flexibility of the points program using their account, and be able to do all the things you would be able to do if you owned the points, but you get to avoid the upfront purchase costs.  As others have pointed out, if you have a DC account, you can easily rent points (they are plentiful) for basically equal to the cost of the annual maintenance fees, so there are no extra costs on an ongoing basis.

That way, if down the road your lifestyle changes, and the timeshare life no longer suits you, you are out nothing...you just stop renting points.  

Its worth a ponder.


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 1, 2015)

If you and/or your parents are unfamiliar with renting points...check out this thread....it explains it fairly well.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217001


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 1, 2015)

Password is taco said:


> To me $10,000 to $12,000 upfront and $1100 maintenance fee for a platinum week at a desireable location sounds a lot better than $28,000 upfront and a $2,000 maintenance fee that is also work one platinum week at a desireable location.  If it's flexibility your after, it seems less flexible to buy into a program rather than pay as you go.



I'm so new to all of this that some things that you guys assume I might know I don't.  In response to Taco.  That sounds great but how does that work?  If I don't want ONE location can I turn that one week into 3-4 weeks like with points?  I agree its cheaper but I'm not just looking at what's cheapest, I want flexibility to be able to go to Hawaii for 5 nights, Boston for a few, NYC (hopefully what I heard is right and they are adding there) for a night or two, maybe Tahoe off peak and then a more fun destination for a week (Hawaii, St Thomas, Aruba etc). Like I said from what I'm seeing that's doable with points. And I realize I might not get ALL of that for 3900 points but just so you have an idea.  My Mom really has the off peak, lower points thing figured out and works it pretty good for them.

What would be the process of doing that with a platinum week? If I trade a plat week for a lesser week do I get something left over?  Or do I have to buy a few separate weeks and then trade each one individually to get the kind of flexibility I mentioned above?


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 1, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> Are your parent's weeks enrolled in the points program?  It sounds like they are since you are using their account to search availability.  If so, why not just rent whatever points you need using their account.  You pay to rent the points and just use their points account as a vehicle to receive the rental points and to book your ressies.  By doing that, you get to book using the flexibility of the points program using their account, and be able to do all the things you would be able to do if you owned the points, but you get to avoid the upfront purchase costs.  As others have pointed out, if you have a DC account, you can easily rent points (they are plentiful) for basically equal to the cost of the annual maintenance fees, so there are no extra costs on an ongoing basis.
> 
> That way, if down the road your lifestyle changes, and the timeshare life no longer suits you, you are out nothing...you just stop renting points.
> 
> Its worth a ponder.



I do like the idea of renting points possibly but my mom works for Delta seasonally. So she flies for free all year round and only works 4 months.  They have close to 7000 points and they use every last one of them.  Working for the airlines and this points system is a match made in heaven haha


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 1, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> I agree with the advice to not finance or at the very least to pay it off with a HELOC as soon as you can. HELOC money is dirt cheap after tax these days. But I disagree that points are not economical, especially for someone your age with many years to spread the up front costs. Renting a timeshare resort is very expensive and I do not think rental compares well to points ownership.
> 
> With your hybrid purchase, you would be getting 3900 points instead of  2000. Using the same OceanWatch example, that would get you at least a week in any 2BR view category from August 14 through May 14.
> 
> ...



JiminNC I must have missed this post.  It would have saved me from doing my own math and I hate math  Thanks for the input.  This is along the lines of what I'm thinking.  Unless I get an answer about the plat weeks and being able to trade them easily for more weeks.  

I really appreciate all the responses I'm getting quite the education.


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 1, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> I do like the idea of renting points possibly but my mom works for Delta seasonally. So she flies for free all year round and only works 4 months.  They have close to 7000 points and they use every last one of them.  Working for the airlines and this points system is a match made in heaven haha



You would not be renting them from your mother, you would be renting them from other owners and using your parents account as the vessel to get it done.  Check out the rental thread link I posted above.  For you and your needs, this is a no brainer.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 1, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> You would not be renting them from your mother, you would be renting them from other owners and using your parents account as the vessel to get it done.  Check out the rental thread link I posted above.  For you and your needs, this is a no brainer.



Oh ok.  That makes more sense.  Do you know if there's anything in the contract that guarantees that you can always give points to whoever you want?  I just wonder if Marriott ever gets smart and cuts that off and limits to only family or something like that. Renting really devalues what they are trying to do it seems.  That said I will check out the site and maybe that is the deal breaker.  

Anything else I should be aware of with renting?  Anyone disagree with Fasttr? Just trying to see ALL the angles here.  Still have 6 days to cancel.


----------



## davidvel (Oct 1, 2015)

Trying to go through your example but maybe I'm too tired for the math. But no way off season midweek Tahoe or Maui studio is $220/night.  

A few more thoughts: Its a stretch to calculate over 40 years as your MF will more than double if not triple over that time. Yes room rates rise, but its just too speculative IMO. (You could always amortize it over 50 years to make it look even better.)

Even the hybrid model is tough, but closer to breaking even. Over 20 years, you're more realistically at $3,400/yr +interest ($500/yr). 
Without specific examples of what 3-4 weeks your thinking of getting, its impossible to fairly compare to renting. 

I like the point rental through your parents account. You save $28,000 and only pay MF (ie rent) when you want to!! Its the best of all worlds.


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 1, 2015)

gmarine said:


> Regarding renting, I would consider the private rental rates rather than the rack rates. You can pretty much rent anywhere, anytime for very close to or not that much more than maintenance fees.



The OP can do this only if he is comfortable with private owner-to-owner transactions. If he is, great - mucho money can be saved. But those transactions are not without risks and downsides that I outlined in post #11 above. The OP needs to decide how he feels about private rental transactions.


----------



## Password is taco (Oct 1, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> I'm so new to all of this that some things that you guys assume I might know I don't.  In response to Taco.  That sounds great but how does that work?  If I don't want ONE location can I turn that one week into 3-4 weeks like with points?  I agree its cheaper but I'm not just looking at what's cheapest, I want flexibility to be able to go to Hawaii for 5 nights, Boston for a few, NYC (hopefully what I heard is right and they are adding there) for a night or two, maybe Tahoe off peak and then a more fun destination for a week (Hawaii, St Thomas, Aruba etc). Like I said from what I'm seeing that's doable with points. And I realize I might not get ALL of that for 3900 points but just so you have an idea.  My Mom really has the off peak, lower points thing figured out and works it pretty good for them.
> 
> What would be the process of doing that with a platinum week? If I trade a plat week for a lesser week do I get something left over?  Or do I have to buy a few separate weeks and then trade each one individually to get the kind of flexibility I mentioned above?



Sorry, what I wrote was in response to Jim's analysis.  Points and weeks are apples and oranges.  It doesn't seem like weeks makes sense for you because of the way you like to travel.  But my point is, if flexibility is what's so important, why not retain ultimately flexibility and pay as you go.  If the payback is 40 to 45 years, like in Jim's analysis, then I think you might as well pay as you go.  I just don't see the benefit of such a high upfront cost and relatively high ongoing annual maintenance fees of the points program.


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 1, 2015)

Password is taco said:


> To me $10,000 to $12,000 upfront and $1100 maintenance fee for a platinum week at a desireable location sounds a lot better than $28,000 upfront and a $2,000 maintenance fee that is also work one platinum week at a desireable location.  If it's flexibility your after, it seems less flexible to buy into a program rather than pay as you go.





S8Farm said:


> I'm so new to all of this that some things that you guys assume I might know I don't.  In response to Taco.  That sounds great but how does that work?  If I don't want ONE location can I turn that one week into 3-4 weeks like with points?  I agree its cheaper but I'm not just looking at what's cheapest, I want flexibility to be able to go to Hawaii for 5 nights, Boston for a few, NYC (hopefully what I heard is right and they are adding there) for a night or two, maybe Tahoe off peak and then a more fun destination for a week (Hawaii, St Thomas, Aruba etc). Like I said from what I'm seeing that's doable with points. And I realize I might not get ALL of that for 3900 points but just so you have an idea.  My Mom really has the off peak, lower points thing figured out and works it pretty good for them.
> 
> What would be the process of doing that with a platinum week? If I trade a plat week for a lesser week do I get something left over?  Or do I have to buy a few separate weeks and then trade each one individually to get the kind of flexibility I mentioned above?



In my opinion, there is no way to obtain the flexibility you seem to want with just weeks. With a lockoff unit (a 2BR unit that can divide into a 1BR unit and a Studio) you can leverage that one lockoff week into two weeks by splitting the unit into the 1BR and the Studio and depositing both for trades. You will also often get accommodation certificates from II that allow you to book a week at low season, low demand locations for $200 or so. But other than those kinds of things, IMHO, it would be very difficult to achieve the flexibility you described in posts #16 and #22 with just weeks.


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 1, 2015)

Password is taco said:


> Sorry, what I wrote was in response to Jim's analysis.  Points and weeks are apples and oranges.  It doesn't seem like weeks makes sense for you because of the way you like to travel.  But my point is, if flexibility is what's so important, why not retain ultimately flexibility and pay as you go.  If the payback is 40 to 45 years, like in Jim's analysis, then I think you might as well pay as you go.  I just don't see the benefit of such a high upfront cost and relatively high ongoing annual maintenance fees of the points program.



The payback is not 40-45 years. I was just spreading the upfront cost over 40-45 years because the OP is only 33 and that's the potential life usage of the ownership. That is the proper way to calculate the fully-loaded cost per night which is what I was comparing. If you want to talk payback period, the actual payback is much, much shorter. For example:

-- $28,000 upfront cost.
-- $2000 or so a year in maintenance fees.

If the OP booked an OF summer week at OceanWatch that would cost $5500 to $6000 to rent, then he would be getting that week for only the $2000 MF, a savings in in-year costs of $3500 to $4000. At that rate of savings, it only takes 7 or 8 years to recoup the $28K upfront costs. This assumes his interest cost is minimal, but even if you add that in, payback is probably less than 10 years. So after the 10 years, he's recouped his upfront cost, and after that, his ongoing cost is just the maintenance fee.

The math would be similar if the weeks booked were spring weeks or off season, but he could parlay his points into two weeks or more of vacation.

And both analyses don't factor in inflation, so the assumption has to be that hotel rates and MF increase in proportion at the same rate.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 1, 2015)

davidvel said:


> Trying to go through your example but maybe I'm too tired for the math. But no way off season midweek Tahoe or Maui studio is $220/night.
> 
> A few more thoughts: Its a stretch to calculate over 40 years as your MF will more than double if not triple over that time. Yes room rates rise, but its just too speculative IMO. (You could always amortize it over 50 years to make it look even better.)
> 
> ...



The Tahoe that I looked at was a 2 bedroom so I think a little over $200 seems realistic. I might be off on Hawaii but once again even for a studio that seems in Hawaii price range. And yes MFs will increase but so will hotel prices and points rentals right?


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 1, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> Oh ok.  That makes more sense.  Do you know if there's anything in the contract that guarantees that you can always give points to whoever you want?  I just wonder if Marriott ever gets smart and cuts that off and limits to only family or something like that. Renting really devalues what they are trying to do it seems.  That said I will check out the site and maybe that is the deal breaker.
> 
> Anything else I should be aware of with renting?  Anyone disagree with Fasttr? Just trying to see ALL the angles here.  Still have 6 days to cancel.



This is the one big unknown with point rentals - will Marriott ever restrict transfers between owners in some fashion. From what I've read on TUG, Disney Vacation Club limits transfers to something like one per year per owner (not sure if it's always been this way at Disney or whether that was a program change at some point), so if Marriott did that, it would severely limit the point rental market.

Right now, the conventional wisdom on TUG is that point rentals are too small in number to be on Marriott's radar screen as a concern for undermining their sales, but I'm sure if Marriott ever did get concerned that sales could be materially affected by point transfers, then they would make a change to the rules. Is that a big enough risk to impact your decision making? Who knows? It's not an issue now, but no one can say it never will be.

Having said that, using your parents account to rent points could be an ideal solution for you, given your unique situation. Any reservations made would be in your parents' names with you as a guest, but that's obviously no big deal since you are family. It could be a great low cost solution if you want to save the up front costs. If Marriott changes the rules in the future, you could always buy your own points then, just recognizing that the price per point will be higher (they increase the price by 20-30 cents every three or four months).


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 1, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> The OP can do this only if he is comfortable with private owner-to-owner transactions. If he is, great - mucho money can be saved. But those transactions are not without risks and downsides that I outlined in post #11 above. The OP needs to decide how he feels about private rental transactions.



Yea after reading Fasttrs link this seems to be the downside. There doesn't seem to be a way with no risk outside of knowing the person. So the question is is it worth sweating that out?  Maybe. I've bought scalped tickets many times but have gotten screwed twice. There I was out a couple hundred here seems like a bigger risk but definitely worth considering. Seems like the only downside other than having to go out and try and find the points when I want them limiting the flexibility a bit.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 1, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> This is the one big unknown with point rentals - will Marriott ever restrict transfers between owners in some fashion. From what I've read on TUG, Disney Vacation Club limits transfers to something like one per year per owner (not sure if it's always been this way at Disney or whether that was a program change at some point), so if Marriott did that, it would severely limit the point rental market.
> 
> Right now, the conventional wisdom on TUG is that point rentals are too small in number to be on Marriott's radar screen as a concern for undermining their sales, but I'm sure if Marriott ever did get concerned that sales could be materially affected by point transfers, then they would make a change to the rules. Is that a big enough risk to impact your decision making? Who knows? It's not an issue now, but no one can say it never will be.
> 
> Having said that, using your parents account to rent points could be an ideal solution for you, given your unique situation. Any reservations made would be in your parents' names with you as a guest, but that's obviously no big deal since you are family. It could be a great low cost solution if you want to save the up front costs. If Marriott changes the rules in the future, you could always buy your own points then, just recognizing that the price per point will be higher (they increase the price by 20-30 cents every three or four months).



But Jim it would still be an issue because remember if they restrict to family I am not talking about renting their points but they would have to rent from other people and then add me as a guest. 

And to your last point that is what scares me. If I decide to rent now then they get smart and limit that and then I have to pay $15 a point. And so at that point I'm upset that I didn't buy now. And honestly I either over pay or just don't do it. 

I really get that there are some cheaper ways but from what I'm reading I either rent and hope they don't wisen up on renting and end up paying a lot more for points.  Or I realize that I'm probably overpaying a little for maximum flexibility and worry free vacationing. Buying a week just doesn't excite me. Or I don't buy anything and in 30 years I'm at the mercy of inflation and what hotels will cost between now and then.

Great dialogue. You all have really made me think a lot.


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 1, 2015)

davidvel said:


> Trying to go through your example but maybe I'm too tired for the math. But no way off season midweek Tahoe or Maui studio is $220/night.



True for Tahoe - $130 to $170/night+tax off season at Timber Lodge for a 1BR. Not true for Maui Ocean Club, where a very off-season October rental in a Garden View Studio/Hotel Suite is $309 to $349/night+tax.



davidvel said:


> A few more thoughts: Its a stretch to calculate over 40 years as your MF will more than double if not triple over that time. Yes room rates rise, but its just too speculative IMO. (You could always amortize it over 50 years to make it look even better.)



As I said in my post just above, the 40 year calculations are just the expected useful life of the ownership given the OP's age. I used that in my earlier post to amortize the up front cost to calculate a reasonable room cost per night for ownership to compare to rentals. Since it's only a valid number for amortizing the upfront cost, that is fixed and does not change, and has no impact on the MF.

Obviously, if MF rise faster than hotel rental rates then the comparison looks worse as time goes on. Not sure what that relationship is or will be.



davidvel said:


> Even the hybrid model is tough, but closer to breaking even. Over 20 years, you're more realistically at $3,400/yr +interest ($500/yr).
> Without specific examples of what 3-4 weeks your thinking of getting, its impossible to fairly compare to renting.



I'm not sure why you would just spread the up front cost over 20 years given the OP's age. It's entirely reasonable to assume he will be able to use the ownership for at least 40 or 45 years (age 73-78). Obviously we can't predict the future, but as I noted a few posts above, with a true break even of only 7 -10 years, unless the OPs lifestyle changes suddenly soon, anything over 10 years the economics look decent. The longer after that initial 7-10 years the ownership works for the OP, the better deal it is financially.



davidvel said:


> I like the point rental through your parents account. You save $28,000 and only pay MF (ie rent) when you want to!! Its the best of all worlds.



Yes, for the OP's unique situation, this could be the sweet spot.


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 1, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> Yea after reading Fasttrs link this seems to be the downside. There doesn't seem to be a way with no risk outside of knowing the person. So the question is is it worth sweating that out?  Maybe. I've bought scalped tickets many times but have gotten screwed twice. There I was out a couple hundred here seems like a bigger risk but definitely worth considering. Seems like the only downside other than having to go out and try and find the points when I want them limiting the flexibility a bit.



My concern with rental risk is more focused on renting an actual week from an owner - in that case you don't own the reservation and are just their guest. You have to trust the owner you rent from at the time you send them the money upfront and you don't know until you check in that everything is OK. That could be months. I would worry too much that I would show up to check in and all would not be well.

There is risk in point rentals as well, but that risk is limited to the short period between the time you pay them (usually PayPal) and when they transfer the points into your account. Once the points are in your account, they are yours 100%. The one time I rented points, the transaction time from payment to points appearing in my account was less than 30 minutes.

There are usually plenty of points available on VPE. The real deals at under 50-cents may be hard to find at times, but at 50-55 cents, points are plentiful on VPE.


----------



## l0410z (Oct 1, 2015)

I believe long term how happy one is with their timeshare purchase has as much or more  to do with usage than cost.    Let us take cost out of the equation is this is not a major concern .    

Lets focus on usage.  How much do you know and understand about the DC point or week usage?      There is a lot to know. 

If you are not comfortable that you know a lot, I would cancel until you are comfortable.   

Right now, you have flexibility.  This helps big time with usage but how  confident are you that this will continue for a long period of time?

Good luck


----------



## jme (Oct 1, 2015)

*you want flexibility?*

*Renting 2000 points * annually will cost you $1000 maximum (and 3900 points will be around $1900, perhaps less, with no loss in flexibility). No up-front cost to finance or pay off, & no maintenance fees for either. 

What will 2000 points cost you annually if you purchase them?  
Easy to fugure out...it's your $23,000 plus your maintenance fee.....
again, your flexibility will be absolutely equal to renting them. 

Cost of 3900 points as described will be $28,500 plus TWO ongoing annual maintenance fees, with SAME flexibility as renting the points.  There is no loss of flexibility by renting, and there is no gain of flexibility by owning them; by renting them perhaps you'll be more flexible because you can skip a year if needed. If you maybe, God forbid, have an auto accident or serious sickness and must sell, who will buy your points and for how much?

Is there really any agonizing over a decision to be made here?


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 1, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> But Jim it would still be an issue because remember if they restrict to family I am not talking about renting their points but they would have to rent from other people and then add me as a guest.



I think you may still misunderstand how a point rental would work using your parents' account. Here is the sequence:

1) You go on VPE, find someone to rent you 4000 points at $0.50/point
2) You give the "seller" your parents' name as it appears on their Marriott account and your parents' account number. You pay them $2000 on a credit card through PayPal.
3) The selling owner transfers 4000 points into your parents' account. They show up almost immediately as soon as the other owner calls Marriott. These points are now 100% owned by your parents. The seller has relinquished all rights to those 4000 points.
4) You (or your parent) would then use your parents' Marriott account to book the reservation you desire using the 4000 points. That reservation will be in the name of your parents, but they can put you on the reservation as their guest.

As long as Marriott allows unlimited or at least very liberal point transfer privileges, this approach should work. But if they limit transfers as Disney does, this will no longer work. No one can predict the likelihood of that. 



S8Farm said:


> And to your last point that is what scares me. If I decide to rent now then they get smart and limit that and then I have to pay $15 a point. And so at that point I'm upset that I didn't buy now. And honestly I either over pay or just don't do it.



As I said, no way anyone can predict what might happen there. The only protection is that point rentals are infinitesimally small relative to the total points ownership. As long that is the case, Marriott may not feel it's worth antagonizing their biggest points owners (who are often the biggest point rental sellers). $28K is a lot of money, but if it's worth it to you for protection against that possibility, regardless of the probability, then only you can make that call.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 1, 2015)

l0410z said:


> I believe long term how happy one is with their timeshare purchase has as much or more  to do with usage than cost.    Let us take cost out of the equation is this is not a major concern .
> 
> Lets focus on usage.  How much do you know and understand about the DC point or week usage?      There is a lot to know.
> 
> ...



Good thought. I think I'm going to use the heck out of them, at least that's the hope. Things change though. I lose my job and I'm in trouble. But my parents can always use more points so as long as they are ok I think that's less of a concern. We LOVE to travel and we love going to different places. So usage for me shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## l0410z (Oct 1, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> Good thought. I think I'm going to use the heck out of them, at least that's the hope. Things change though. I lose my job and I'm in trouble. But my parents can always use more points so as long as they are ok I think that's less of a concern. We LOVE to travel and we love going to different places. So usage for me shouldn't be a problem.



Not suggestioning you will or might lose your job....I was thinking about kids.  More important is understanding usage complexity in how to use points.  If you are comfortable and cost not an issue ...you have your answer.


----------



## enma (Oct 2, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> We LOVE to travel and we love going to different places. So usage for me shouldn't be a problem.



I have read all this analysis and math here. As a mother of 3 kids my advise is to go with it. If you have the money the memories the points will give you are priceless. My take on life is you can't always calculate and reason everything. Live your life to the fullest and enjoy the vacations with your family. Can't take that money to your grave anyway.


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 2, 2015)

At the risk of posting too many times, I did want to make you aware of one potential issue with renting points using your parents' account. I'm not experienced enough in point rentals to assess how big of an issue this is or is not, but maybe the point rental gurus like Fasttr can shed some light.

The only way rented/transferred points are different than points you (or your parents) own, is they cannot be transferred again or banked to the following year or borrowed into a previous year. They are forever stuck in their use year.

When a reservation is made using points, Marriott's system picks which point bucket to pick from within your account (Trust points, enrolled points, borrowed points, banked points, etc.) Usually the system defaults to whichever point pool has the earliest expiration date. You have some ability to manually change that allocation, but there are some limits to the changes you can make.

I had a recent reservation where I rented 650 use year 2016 points to make a four day reservation in Hilton Head for April 2016. But instead of letting me use those 650 points for Hilton Head, the Marriott system forced me to use 650 of the 750 bonus points I received with my purchase since those expired prior to the Dec 31, 2016 expiration date of the rented points. As it turned out for me, that wasn't a big issue as I had another reservation to make a couple weeks later for Hawaii, and these rented points would be easily consumed by that reservation.

As I said, I don't know enough about rentals yet to know if these "bucket" issues would potentially cause an issue with your parents' regular points. It could be a problem if the system forced you to use their owned points first, instead of the rented points. It could cause them a problem if the system insisted that it first use their owned points that they may want to bank to the following year for some reason. They would then not be able to bank the rented points that would still be left in their account.

Maybe someone can shed light on whether this could be a thorny issue or not.


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 2, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> At the risk of posting too many times, I did want to make you aware of one potential issue with renting points using your parents' account. I'm not experienced enough in point rentals to assess how big of an issue this is or is not, but maybe the point rental gurus like Fasttr can shed some light.
> 
> The only way rented/transferred points are different than points you (or your parents) own, is they cannot be transferred again or banked to the following year or borrowed into a previous year. They are forever stuck in their use year.
> 
> ...



The system will *recommend* which bucket of points it is planning on using for the reservation.  That said, at that point in the reservation process, there is a link to see more options which will then show you all the options available to you, so in that area, the OP would be able to select his transferred points, rather than his parents points.  I think the system uses a hierarchy of which points are first expiring, taking into consideration bankability, etc, so for the most part, it chooses wisely on its own.  But knowing you can override it is a nice feature.  

That said, the system is not perfect as I have had a couple instances where no matter what I told it to do, it overrode me.  In those instances, a quick call to a VOA allows them to contact folks in the IT department, and they are able to swap into the ressie the points you really want to use. 

If I were the OP, I wouldn't let this issue deter me from going this route.  That said, from my reading of his most recent posts....it sounds like he has pretty much made up his mind about going through with the hybrid purchase...which in the end should also work nicely for his needs....it will just cost him more in upfront costs than the pure rental option.  Either way, he should be able to enjoy great vacations for years to come.

Perhaps his best approach would be to try the points rental route for his next trip or two and see how it goes.  If it works and he likes it...great.  If not and he still thinks the hybrid route is the way to go, he can always get this same basic hybrid deal at that point in time.


----------



## presley (Oct 2, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> Unless I get an answer about the plat weeks and being able to trade them easily for more weeks.



Here is one example of using a week for more weeks. You have to join II and use them for exchanging. Most of the time, you trade for a full week, but they do have some short stays.

If you own a Desert Springs Villas in Palm Desert, you have a 2 bedroom lockout. You pay to lock it out and make it 2 units. Now, you can trade in II for 2 weeks. II has something going where you can book an extra exchange when you make an exchange. If you use that, your 2 exchanges turn into 4 weeks. Once in a while, they will give you an AC, which is another exchange/cheap rental week. I get those once or twice per year. So, yes a one week ownership can work into 4 - 6 weeks of vacation, but it really depends on where you want to go and when you want to go.


----------



## kds4 (Oct 2, 2015)

presley said:


> Here is one example of using a week for more weeks. You have to join II and use them for exchanging. Most of the time, you trade for a full week, but they do have some short stays.
> 
> If you own a Desert Springs Villas in Palm Desert, you have a 2 bedroom lockout. You pay to lock it out and make it 2 units. Now, you can trade in II for 2 weeks. II has something going where you can book an extra exchange when you make an exchange. If you use that, your 2 exchanges turn into 4 weeks. Once in a while, they will give you an AC, which is another exchange/cheap rental week. I get those once or twice per year. So, yes a one week ownership can work into 4 - 6 weeks of vacation, but it really depends on where you want to go and when you want to go.



This has been our experience depositing and exchanging one of our weeks through Interval International (II). We have a 3BR lock-off at Marriott Grande Vista (MGV) that we deposit with II as a 2BR and Studio. We just recently used one of our studio deposits to trade back into MGV in a 3BR next summer (and we still have a 2BR deposit from this week available to trade somewhere else). Using an II program called 'Choose 2', you can also add a second week from a selected group of destinations each time you book a trade. So, you can hypothetically get a total of 4 weeks from 1 week owned by locking off and taking advantage of the 'Choose 2' program. 

II also offers a program called 'Short Stays' for Gold and Platinum level members that allows you to make up to 2 reservations of 1-6 nights each for each deposit you have in your account. Using a similar approach as above, you can get up to 4 stays of 1 to 6 nights each for each week you own by locking off and depositing with II then making short stay reservations against both deposits.

You can also mix it up. Own a lock-off week. Lock it off and make two II deposits. Use one deposit to make a week reservation (and potentially double it with a second 'Choose 2' reservation). Use the 2nd deposited part of your locked off week to make up to two short stay reservations of 1 to 6 nights each.


----------



## kds4 (Oct 2, 2015)

As both Fastr and ...Taco have discussed, renting points through your parents existing DC account makes the most sense to 'play with points'. You create no long term financial obligations to Marriott this way (maintenance fees) and make no large out of pocket up front expenditure/indebtedness. 

Even if Marriott decides to restrict points transfers at some point in the future (for example to only 1 transaction per year), there will still be points to rent. The burden will be on the owner of the points in choosing how to execute their one authorized rental transaction. You will still be free to rent as many times as you want.

For points, I would go this route.


----------



## kds4 (Oct 2, 2015)

You can also still pursue your own version of the 'hybrid' model Marriott pitched you by purchasing a strong trading resale week that you can 'convert' to other destinations by depositing and trading through II (as I discussed in a previous post) and then rent DC points through your parents existing account.

This will give you all the functional benefits of the hybrid package Marriott pitched you (a week to use or convert/deposit plus access to and use of DC points) for a fraction of both the upfront cost and continuing maintenance fees.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 2, 2015)

kds4 said:


> Even if Marriott decides to restrict points transfers at some point in the future (for example to only 1 transaction per year), there will still be points to rent. The burden will be on the owner of the points in choosing how to execute their one authorized rental transaction. You will still be free to rent as many times as you want.



I think such a rule change - if it ever happened - would have more of a chilling effect on transfer/rentals than this statement implies.

1) The mega renters with tens of thousands of points would never be able to rent all of their points in just one transaction, so the supply of available points would go down. They would have to hold out for the single biggest buyer they could find.

2) Other smaller point renter/sellers would likely try to hold out for someone who will take all of their points and not split into smaller lots as many do now. For the buyer, this would make it more difficult to find the package you need, as you would need to find one person who is selling/renting the exact number of points you need - or - if Marriott would do as you suggest and only limit outgoing transfers, you would need to find multiple sellers with smaller packages that when combined meet your need.

So while it is true that such a rule change by Marriott may not eliminate the ability to rent points, I think it would restrict the process sufficiently to dramatically limit the practical utility of using point rentals as a primary vacation strategy.


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 2, 2015)

kds4 said:


> This has been our experience depositing and exchanging one of our weeks through Interval International (II). We have a 3BR lock-off at Marriott Grande Vista (MGV) that we deposit with II as a 2BR and Studio. We just recently used one of our studio deposits to trade back into MGV in a 3BR next summer (and we still have a 2BR deposit from this week available to trade somewhere else). Using an II program called 'Choose 2', you can also add a second week from a selected group of destinations each time you book a trade. So, you can hypothetically get a total of 4 weeks from 1 week owned by locking off and taking advantage of the 'Choose 2' program.
> 
> II also offers a program called 'Short Stays' for Gold and Platinum level members that allows you to make up to 2 reservations of 1-6 nights each for each deposit you have in your account. Using a similar approach as above, you can get up to 4 stays of 1 to 6 nights each for each week you own by locking off and depositing with II then making short stay reservations against both deposits.
> 
> You can also mix it up. Own a lock-off week. Lock it off and make two II deposits. Use one deposit to make a week reservation (and potentially double it with a second 'Choose 2' reservation). Use the 2nd deposited part of your locked off week to make up to two short stay reservations of 1 to 6 nights each.



This is an excellent and interesting example of how weeks can be leveraged into multiple weeks if you are willing to put the time and energy into playing the game. So the OP will need to assess how hard they are willing to work at the trading game to save money vs points. 

How often do Marriott resorts show up in the choose 2 or short stay offerings versus other general II inventory? Are these primarily the leftovers that also get put into Accommodation Certificates, Getaways, etc.?


----------



## klpca (Oct 2, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> This is an excellent and interesting example of how weeks can be leveraged into multiple weeks if you are willing to put the time and energy into playing the game. So the OP will need to assess how hard they are willing to work at the trading game to save money vs points.
> 
> How often do Marriott resorts show up in the choose 2 or short stay offerings versus other general II inventory? Are these primarily the leftovers that also get put into Accommodation Certificates, Getaways, etc.?



Short stays are definitely the leftovers, including Marriott's, but there are nice leftovers there. My last short stay was to Grand Solmar in Cabo last April. I see the best inventory within 90 days. 

Weeks work best (and are awesome, imho) if you are a flexible traveler. If you have absolutes in your expectations (absolutely have to travel during a high season, absolutely have to have a two bedroom, absolutely have to stay in  Marriott) then I think that weeks could lead to disappointment.


----------



## presley (Oct 2, 2015)

JIMinNC said:


> How often do Marriott resorts show up in the choose 2 or short stay offerings versus other general II inventory? Are these primarily the leftovers that also get put into Accommodation Certificates, Getaways, etc.?



I can only answer for short stays. I don't look at every area, but there are normally always short stays for Palm Desert. I've seen several short stays for Hawaii. I haven't searched other areas where Marriotts are located. Marriott does seem to be one of the more active participants in the short stay option.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 2, 2015)

So I think I've decided to stick with it.  I'm going with the hybrid and am buying a resale in Wburg (for $6200) that will get me 2025 points.  They made a big deal about going over the match but I'm sure that was for show.  It was hard to find a perfect match and anything under 2000 would have left me just shy of Select status.  I was under the assumption (from my mother, not the salesman) that all points members got a 25% discount if you book within 30 days.  This was kind of what pushed me over because we like quick last minute getaways and I see myself taking advantage of that.

I really appreciate the rental advice.  I just am young and have been fortunate enough to have a really good paying secure job.  And even though they may never mess with rentals I just don't want to risk it and end up having to pay $16/point one day.  I will DEFINITELY be renting (thanks fasttr!) moving forward but just want to be an owner and not have to worry about things ever changing.  They are waiving the $2300 fee, paid me back my $700 (from the week that I got for the presentation), gave me an extra 2000 points this year, and get another 2000 after 18 months.  Oh and enrolled me in the getaways that they say they don't offer anymore (though I'm  not sure I believe that). So over the next 3 years I will have 18075 points to play with.  I know that's chump change for some of you  but I should be able to have some fun with those! 

So even though I didn't follow some of the advice on here I hope you guys let me into the fold.  I have learned so much and have already educated my parents on several things.  Marriott is getting a lot of money from me so I want to learn how to maximize this as much as possible and lessen the blow from this overpriced opportunity, no offense JW!

So thanks again and I hope to learn a few things over the years that I can pass along  to you guys and/or maybe make some deals with a few of you in the future.  Any other advice or caution?  Oh and is that getaways program any good?


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 2, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> So I think I've decided to stick with it.  I'm going with the hybrid and am buying a resale in Wburg (for $6200) that will get me 2025 points.  They made a big deal about going over the match but I'm sure that was for show.  It was hard to find a perfect match and anything under 2000 would have left me just shy of Select status.  I was under the assumption (from my mother, not the salesman) that all points members got a 25% discount if you book within 30 days.  This was kind of what pushed me over because we like quick last minute getaways and I see myself taking advantage of that.



Select status won't get you that.  The 25% discount is when you pay $$$ for a stay at a MVC resort booked via marriott.com.  You need at least Executive Status to get the last minute point discounts.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 2, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> Select status won't get you that.  The 25% discount is when you pay $$$ for a stay at a MVC resort booked via marriott.com.  You need at least Executive Status to get the last minute point discounts.



Oh boy well then he lied.  Argggg


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 2, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> Oh boy well then he lied.  Argggg



HERE is the link to the benefits at each level.

Line 2 is the 25% for $$$ stays.

Line 3 is the points discount for last minute stays.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 2, 2015)

what's an owner rental discount?  And wow I don't even see a difference between select and regular owner


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 2, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> what's an owner rental discount?  And wow I don't even see a difference between select and regular owner



You are correct....not much difference at all.

Owner rental discounts allow MVC owners the ability to rent villas at MVC resorts directly from Marriott.com (just like you would if you wanted to book a night at the local Courtyard)....but because you are an owner, you input a special code, based on your status level, when booking a room at a MVC resort and that qualifies you for that percentage discount off the Leisure Rate at Marriott.com, assuming that rate code still has availability.

Anybody can book MVC resorts via Marriott.com and pay cash.  This just gives MVC owners who do so a little break on the cash rate.


----------



## Password is taco (Oct 2, 2015)

This has been a very interesting thread, I really appreciate everyone's contributions.  This is a really great community to be a part of.


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 2, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> what's an owner rental discount?  And wow I don't even see a difference between select and regular owner



The only real difference is that Owners have to pay a 20% points surcharge to book in the window between 12 months out and 13 months out. Select can book at 13 months with no surcharge.

In my opinion, the only tier really worth paying to move up to is Executive because of the ability to book less-than seven-day stays at 13 months out instead of 10. If I ever add more points to our ownership it will be to move to this level.


----------



## Quilter (Oct 3, 2015)

Excuse me. . .can I step in way down on this conversation?   I've glanced through the 1st page, jumped to the last.   It got pretty involved and I'm too frazzled by  my own numbers puzzle at the moment.

But, I have had communication this past week with my friend in MVC resales.   I asked about a 3 bedroom GV Platinum hybrid package because of the raving trade results on a different thread.

Here's parts of his 2 email response:

"$12,600. . . .we have a special right now where you can enroll any week with a 2,500 point purchase."

That's all I know.  Let me know how this stacks with your current offer of if you'd like more details.  

I would not buy Manor Club.   We own Manor Club and of all the 5 properties we own that is the one that we use just for the generation of points.   This is from the 2nd email I've recently received from the COA:

"September 30, 2015

 RE:     Notice of Annual Meeting
      Manor Club at Ford's Colony Condominium Association
      Manor Club at Ford's Colony Time-Share Association

Dear Marriott's Manor Club Owner:

The 2015 Annual Meetings of Manor Club at Ford's Colony Condominium Association and Manor Club at Ford's Colony Time-Share Association will be held at 11:30 a.m., Eastern Daylight time, on October 15, 2015, at the Ford's Colony Country Club, (see Reader Board for exact meeting room location), 240 Ford's Colony Drive, Williamsburg, Virginia 23188.

To date, the Associations have not received your your vote(s) for the upcoming Annual Meetings. In order to hold valid meetings of each membership, each Association must obtain quorum which is 25% of the total voting interests. As of today, the Associations have not met the quorum requirements. If you are not planning to attend the Annual Meetings, it is imperative you submit your vote(s) prior to the meeting so quorum can be met. Not reaching the required votes will result in additional follow-up campaigns to those Owners who have not voted with the goal of obtaining quorum. This will be an additional expense to the Associations."

Resorts have a difficult time getting that 25% quorum and Manor Club seems to have it's difficulties in that regard.


----------



## kds4 (Oct 3, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> So I think I've decided to stick with it.  I'm going with the hybrid and am buying a resale in Wburg (for $6200) that will get me 2025 points.  They made a big deal about going over the match but I'm sure that was for show.  It was hard to find a perfect match and anything under 2000 would have left me just shy of Select status.  I was under the assumption (from my mother, not the salesman) that all points members got a 25% discount if you book within 30 days.  This was kind of what pushed me over because we like quick last minute getaways and I see myself taking advantage of that.
> 
> I really appreciate the rental advice.  I just am young and have been fortunate enough to have a really good paying secure job.  And even though they may never mess with rentals I just don't want to risk it and end up having to pay $16/point one day.  I will DEFINITELY be renting (thanks fasttr!) moving forward but just want to be an owner and not have to worry about things ever changing.  They are waiving the $2300 fee, paid me back my $700 (from the week that I got for the presentation), gave me an extra 2000 points this year, and get another 2000 after 18 months.  Oh and enrolled me in the getaways that they say they don't offer anymore (though I'm  not sure I believe that). So over the next 3 years I will have 18075 points to play with.  I know that's chump change for some of you  but I should be able to have some fun with those!
> 
> ...



While we have enjoyed visiting Williamsburg and it may generate the amount of points closest to your direct points purchase, I would throw in a couple of thoughts. First, Williamsburg is a non-lock off property which means you will never be able to potentially make two deposits to Interval International (should you care about potentially using the unit that way instead of occupying or converting it to DC points). Also, should you plan to want to utilize II as a means of exchanging your owned week for other destinations, I do not believe it will be as strong a trader as other weeks you could potentially own.

As far as why I keep bringing up II, consider this. You want to go to a given place. It will cost you xxx in DC points but that destination and timeframe may also be available through II. Which is the more economical way to go there? If you can get the week using points for less than using up the full value of points your owned week converts to in DC, then using points for that trip makes sense. On the other hand, if staying there using DC points for the week you want will require using up all the points your owned week converts to plus require additional of your direct purchased points, then using an II exchange may be a better move.

"Destination X costs 3,000 points through the DC program but is also available through II. My owned week converts to 2,500 points. Going through II makes more sense as I am 'spending' 2,500 points (the value of my week) to exchange for it versus spending 3,000 points (the value my week is worth plus 500 additional DC points I own separate from my week)." 

With a lock-off unit there is a force multiplier in II in the form of 'uptrades'. This means you can get a bigger unit than what you deposited to II. While not guaranteed, we have had good success (especially with last minute exchanges - 90 days out or less). Our last uptrade was from a deposited studio into a 3BR (Marriott to Marriott). I do not believe uptrades are possible exchanging weeks directly through Marriott, only through II. Barring a some scenario that I cannot foresee, an uptrade will always be the best value to using a week rather than converting it to DC points or even occupying it. The risk is that an uptrade, or even a given exchange to a location you want to go when you want to go isn't guaranteed. That is why II offers a 'Request First' ability. Tell them what you want and they will search for it. If you can't get it through II, you can still go ahead and convert your week through DC and go on points. It's just added flexibility. 

If I were going to buy a hybrid package, I would definitely consider a lock-off unit. You can also mitigate the cost by considering purchase of an Every Other Year (EOY) week. OF course, you are limited to the inventory they are offering.

Personally, my first choice would be a 3BR Grande Vista Lock-Off (but I'm admittedly biased toward MGV/MGR).


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 3, 2015)

kds4 said:


> While we have enjoyed visiting Williamsburg and it may generate the amount of points closest to your direct points purchase, I would throw in a couple of thoughts. First, Williamsburg is a non-lock off property which means you will never be able to potentially make two deposits to Interval International (should you care about potentially using the unit that way instead of occupying or converting it to DC points). Also, should you plan to want to utilize II as a means of exchanging your owned week for other destinations, I do not believe it will be as strong a trader as other weeks you could potentially own.



Another reason a Manor Club Gold week may not be the best bundle choice is that it has high maintenance fees per point generated.  I believe it was in the $0.59/point range for 2015, which likely puts it in the $0.62/point range for 2016.  That's even higher than the MF's on points....which everybody agrees is pretty high.  

Lots to ponder before finalizing a deal, that's for sure.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 3, 2015)

What am I missing here?  I could care less about the Manor club.  I used to live in Wburg and really have no desire to ever use it.  I looked at several properties and if all I care about is points then why would I care where I buy.  If they theyr are going to give me 2025 points for $6200 vs paying at HH $9200 for 1700 points then why would I do that?

He said my MF's are $1160 and everywhere else I looked (Orlando, HH, Myrtle) the fees were within $80.  

So to recap, if all I care about is points then wouldn't I just try and find my best value at points vs price?


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 3, 2015)

Quilter said:


> Excuse me. . .can I step in way down on this conversation?   I've glanced through the 1st page, jumped to the last.   It got pretty involved and I'm too frazzled by  my own numbers puzzle at the moment.
> 
> But, I have had communication this past week with my friend in MVC resales.   I asked about a 3 bedroom GV Platinum hybrid package because of the raving trade results on a different thread.
> 
> ...




So I am paying $23k for 2000 points.  They are selling me a week in Wburg for $6200 which will convert yearly to 2025 points.  They are giving me an extra 2k points as incentive and another 2k points if I finance for 18 months. They refunded my most recent stay. Enrolling me in the getaways program. And waiving the conversion to points fee.  

So if it's points you care about you can find a better deal.  If it's the location then that's for you to decide.


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 3, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> Another reason a Manor Club Gold week may not be the best bundle choice is that it has high maintenance fees per point generated.  I believe it was in the $0.59/point range for 2015, which likely puts it in the $0.62/point range for 2016.  That's even higher than the MF's on points....which everybody agrees is pretty high.
> 
> Lots to ponder before finalizing a deal, that's for sure.





S8Farm said:


> What am I missing here?  I could care less about the Manor club.  I used to live in Wburg and really have no desire to ever use it.  I looked at several properties and if all I care about is points then why would I care where I buy.  If they theyr are going to give me 2025 points for $6200 vs paying at HH $9200 for 1700 points then why would I do that?
> 
> He said my MF's are $1160 and everywhere else I looked (Orlando, HH, Myrtle) the fees were within $80.
> 
> So to recap, if all I care about is points then wouldn't I just try and find my best value at points vs price?



Remember, the purchase price is one time....but the MF's are forever, so if you are paying $0.15 per point more in MF for a 2025 point week, that is costing you $304 a year more....lets factor that over the next 30 years, and you have paid $9,120 more than perhaps you had to.  

All I am saying is that there are many factors that go into which week you choose in a hybrid package, and its likely you were not comparing MF's.  As an example, a Cypress Harbor Summer week goes for $6,900 (only $700 more in purchase price) AND gives you 2500 points annually, but the MF's are only $0.46 per point....about $0.13 per point cheaper (AND cheaper per point than the Trust points), year after year after year.  Is it likely you could get this bundled without MVC forcing you to purchase 2500 Trust points?....not sure, but you have already gotten them to agree to not a pure 1:1 bundle ratio so who knows, but perhaps its worth asking.  The point here is that the week you chose has pretty high MF's per point allotted.  There may be better weeks out there with a better MF/point ratio for close to the same purchase price.  

And bringing back up what others have said....there is SO much to learn, and when you have only 10 days to rescind hanging over your head, that's a lot of pressure, and you are not likely to learn all you need to learn in that short period of time to make the best decision for you.  

And as for all of the goodies you keep bringing up....

MVC's waiving the enrollment fee is fictitious value as that is ALWAYS done on these MVC Resale bundle deals....so toss that aside.
The initial 2000 bonus points they are giving you has value (approx. $1000), but the second 2000 points they are giving you after paying them interest for 18 months has negative value unless they have recently got very competitive on their interest rates (put it on your HELOC, pass on the second 2000 points, and save yourself some money).


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 3, 2015)

And as for all of the goodies you keep bringing up....

MVC's waiving the enrollment fee is fictitious value as that is ALWAYS done on these MVC Resale bundle deals....so toss that aside.
The initial 2000 bonus points they are giving you has value (approx. $1000), but the second 2000 points they are giving you after paying them interest for 18 months has negative value unless they have recently got very competitive on their interest rates (put it on your HELOC, pass on the second 2000 points, and save yourself some money).
[/

I only brought up what I have because I was hoping I'd hear some other incentives that weren't offered.  I've been in sales my whole life I know that these things aren't special to me or one time only


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 3, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> Remember, the purchase price is one time....but the MF's are forever, so if you are paying $0.15 per point more in MF for a 2025 point week, that is costing you $304 a year more....lets factor that over the next 30 years, and you have paid $9,120 more than perhaps you had to.
> 
> All I am saying is that there are many factors that go into which week you choose in a hybrid package, and its likely you were not comparing MF's.  As an example, a Cypress Harbor Summer week goes for $6,900 (only $700 more in purchase price) AND gives you 2500 points annually, but the MF's are only $0.46 per point....about $0.13 per point cheaper (AND cheaper per point than the Trust points), year after year after year.  Is it likely you could get this bundled without MVC forcing you to purchase 2500 Trust points?....not sure, but you have already gotten them to agree to not a pure 1:1 bundle ratio so who knows, but perhaps its worth asking.  The point here is that the week you chose has pretty high MF's per point allotted.  There may be better weeks out there with a better MF/point ratio for close to the same purchase price.
> 
> ...



I just spoke to Marriott.  He said they are pretty much the same (Cypress Harbor and Manor), so let's see what that means ha.  He said he is sending me an email in 5 min to show the difference.  I can get a 2bd at Cypress Harbor for 1975 points for $5400.  Since the select level doesn't get me excited I might just go with that one and save the $800.  

If MF's are the same I'm getting the feeling that you guys think that Cypress Harbor is better ...


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 3, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> I just spoke to Marriott.  He said they are pretty much the same (Cypress Harbor and Manor), so let's see what that means ha.  He said he is sending me an email in 5 min to show the difference.  I can get a 2bd at Cypress Harbor for 1975 points for $5400.  Since the select level doesn't get me excited I might just go with that one and save the $800.
> 
> If MF's are the same I'm getting the feeling that you guys think that Cypress Harbor is better ...



He is talking about a Cypress Harbor *Sport* week for 1975 points.  I was talking about a Cypress Harbor *Summer* week.  The MF/point ratio on that *Sport* week is back up in the $0.56/point range....like he said, not much different than your Manor week.  

Not only do Resorts matter regarding MF's, but the MF/allotted point will be different based on season, view, etc, etc.  

So many factors.


----------



## burg1121 (Oct 3, 2015)

I have never understood why some people don't like trading with II but each to his own. I'm at executive leave and have as much trouble trading my pts as my weeks with II not to mention the DC website is terrible. My only thought is make sure the week you buy is at a resort you like. There will probably a more than a few times you have to use it. And remember if the salesperson's mouth is moving it's not for your benefit but his. Good luck with which ever way you go.


----------



## kds4 (Oct 3, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> What am I missing here?  I could care less about the Manor club.  I used to live in Wburg and really have no desire to ever use it.  I looked at several properties and if all I care about is points then why would I care where I buy.  If they theyr are going to give me 2025 points for $6200 vs paying at HH $9200 for 1700 points then why would I do that?
> 
> He said my MF's are $1160 and everywhere else I looked (Orlando, HH, Myrtle) the fees were within $80.
> 
> So to recap, if all I care about is points then wouldn't I just try and find my best value at points vs price?



No intent to sound critical with my prior post. My discussion regarding II was only from the perspective of offering additional flexibility in how you could use the enrolled week you are considering purchasing.

Last thought, besides trading power I definitely agree with Fasttr regarding paying attention to the MFPP (maintenance fee per point) as well as weighing the differences between the purchase price and season/point allocation. A little difference in the short run may become a big difference in the long run. 

His assessment of Cypress Harbor (summer season) is spot on and all MVC properties in Orlando are generally strong traders.


----------



## m61376 (Oct 3, 2015)

After reading others' posts above I'd just like to add a few considerations into the mix:
-You currently have great job flexibility (and assume that will continue) and have 3 young kids (giving your family a lot of vacation time flexibility). However, fast forward 5 years- how old will your kids be? What will their schedules be? More importantly, have you considered how that will impact your vacation flexibility. School aged kids means vacations around school schedules, which impacts availability, flexibility, and often precludes last minute planning due to higher airfare over those periods.

-I think why some members keep on mentioning having the option to use II for trading weeks is that there can be some great deals- esp. for off season and Flexchange (59 days or less) trades. The value of a lock-off week during Flexchange can far exceed the value of the points otherwise allotted to the week. If you are buying a hybrid Manor Club week, make sure it is a Sequel week- the original side doesn't have lock-offs and the Sequel does. That way, if you ever decide that you want to give II a chance, esp. during Flexchange, you have the option of locking off and maximizing benefits.

-Currently, with 3 young kids, you're happy with shorter stays (and can maximize benefits of those cheaper Sunday through Thursday night point rates). As kids get older a few things change. If you have under two's you're not paying for 5 airline tickets, but within a short period you will, and that might impact whether going cross country for less than a week makes sense. Also, in many ways it's easier to go away with a baby than older kids. And, as school schedules impact travel, you may not be able to simply get up and go when you want to and as frequently as you want to, and may change your vacationing pattern to trips of a week or more.

-It's oftentimes hard to justify a purchase based on dollars and cents alone, and prior to the DC system there were many posts on how to evaluate ownership and whether or not it made sense financially. Many of us here stressed the intangible benefits of ownership; you can't put a price tag on the memories, and the concept if you won you'll get up and go and not let the complacency of everyday life intervene. Personally, I wish we discovered timeshares when our "kids" were kids. We bought resale weeks when resale prices were much higher than they are today. While always  a bargain shopper, I don't regret buying when we did for a second; we've had too many wonderful trips, replete with priceless memories. So I really do believe there's an intangible benefit from ownership.

That said, you should reconsider the advice offered by others above to rent points and utilize your parent's account, at least for a year or two. Get a feel for different destinations, availability, and all the other things that go along with ownership. Maybe you'll feel just as adamant about point ownership; maybe you will fall in love with a destination that you'd envision visiting repeatedly. We used to love to travel all over, and used to feel the same way about revisiting one spot. The only place that we both felt that we'd like to visit again was Aruba. Since we've bought there we rarely opt to trade elsewhere. At least for us, there's something to be said for having a "home away from home;" it's almost like a second home for a couple of weeks  year, without the burden of maintenance. It's truly relaxing to be able to go somewhere totally familiar just to veg out, as a balance to those more hectic morning to night sightseeing-type vacations. My family used to call me the "brochure lady"- I had sole responsibility for trip planning, and had detailed itineraries for all over. I never thought I could enjoy a vacation that was just relaxation, yet I shocked myself and have.Many owners here have their own favorite destination for just relaxing family time, and as you experience different places you might surprise yourself and find your own personal haven.  

-Don't feel pressured to buy now because prices may go up in the future. My sense from reading your posts is that you'd benefit from time spent learning and playing in the system. Just my two cents, and that's all it may be worth....At any extent, hi and welcome to Tug . Whatever you decide, stick around and you'll learn a lot as to how to maximize your usage.


----------



## dioxide45 (Oct 3, 2015)

The clock is ultimately ticking and it is the sales rep hope that they hold you off and delay just long enough to get you outside the rescission period. Their pay check is dependent on it.

Lets look at some scenarios with purchasing points and financing through Marriott. I don't know if that was the plan or not, but it is very expensive. $23000 financed at 10.9% over 10 years works out to about $38,000. Add in $1000 in MFs per year (likely to increase) over those 10 years and you have a a total all in of about $50,000. That works out to $5000 a year for travel lodging costs. I could stay in a lot of places for that price. I can take four or five cruises for two for close to that.

Thinking you may have 40 years in travel available, the costs do come down. Say you actually fork over the cash to buy the points outright and not finance. Then pay 40 years of MFs that increase at only 3% a year.

MFs over 40 years = $75,400
Initial Purchase Price = $23,000
Total: $98,400

Divide that by 40 years and your annual cost of travel lodging is $2,460. I didn't even include opportunity cost. That is for only 2,000 points. You might be able to squeak out a week, or two in the off season. You might get more if you travel in low low season, but you can get those same nights for about the same cost by renting?


----------



## davidvel (Oct 3, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> Oh boy well then he lied.  Argggg


No surprise. But, the sales person lied to you and you continue to talk business with him. That's surprising.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 3, 2015)

davidvel said:


> No surprise. But, the sales person lied to you and you continue to talk business with him. That's surprising.



It wasn't the guy that sold me, it's the one trying to keep me.  Like I've said I've been in sales my whole life.  I believe I'm very honest with people but I know the drill.  He said he misunderstood my question and was referring to the booking.  I thought I was clear but that's why I'm glad I found this site. and know what to look for.  I look at contracts and make sure things we talk about are in writing.  I know some people hate being lied to but for me it's not about what is said but is written.  If at the end of the day the deal makes sense then I'm not walking away over a misunderstanding or overzealous salesman.  If I thought he was just being a complete snake then I probably would walk.  I walked last year because the woman trying to sell me was the most condescending woman I've ever met.  I actually really like the guy that sold me he was the 5th to try and even though there might be better ways to do this, me liking him helps a little.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 3, 2015)

kds4 said:


> No intent to sound critical with my prior post. My discussion regarding II was only from the perspective of offering additional flexibility in how you could use the enrolled week you are considering purchasing.
> 
> Last thought, besides trading power I definitely agree with Fasttr regarding paying attention to the MFPP (maintenance fee per point) as well as weighing the differences between the purchase price and season/point allocation. A little difference in the short run may become a big difference in the long run.
> 
> His assessment of Cypress Harbor (summer season) is spot on and all MVC properties in Orlando are generally strong traders.



I don't think you were being critical.  Very helpful actually.  I decided to not go with Manor and they are looking at Cypress Harbour, Grande Vista, Reserve and Harbour lake.  Even though I'm doing this for points I do like the idea that if I forget or something happens that we have a resort down there.  Only a 8 hour drive for us.  And the MF's were about $100 less a year.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 3, 2015)

m61376 said:


> After reading others' posts above I'd just like to add a few considerations into the mix:
> -You currently have great job flexibility (and assume that will continue) and have 3 young kids (giving your family a lot of vacation time flexibility). However, fast forward 5 years- how old will your kids be? What will their schedules be? More importantly, have you considered how that will impact your vacation flexibility. School aged kids means vacations around school schedules, which impacts availability, flexibility, and often precludes last minute planning due to higher airfare over those periods.
> 
> -I think why some members keep on mentioning having the option to use II for trading weeks is that there can be some great deals- esp. for off season and Flexchange (59 days or less) trades. The value of a lock-off week during Flexchange can far exceed the value of the points otherwise allotted to the week. If you are buying a hybrid Manor Club week, make sure it is a Sequel week- the original side doesn't have lock-offs and the Sequel does. That way, if you ever decide that you want to give II a chance, esp. during Flexchange, you have the option of locking off and maximizing benefits.
> ...



All good thoughts.  I'm sure some of you are thinking I'm being stubborn here but renting seems to make the most sense to me AFTER the hybrid purchase. I want to own, I want the peace of mind knowing that I will have points for me over the next 40-50 years.  I really think that Marriott will change that one day.  I might be wrong and might end up paying more but I know we will use these like crazy.  Traveling is just something we both love to do.  Kids in school will change things but the wife is leaning towards homeschooling (i'm not quite there yet but she usually wins).  

As far as waiting and testing the waters goes. Like I've said a few times this was my 5th presentation.  I've been to the Manor Club, Grand Chateau, Ko Olina, Tahoe, Harbour Lake and Park City.  Marriott has my heart.  We use Hyatt a lot for work and I like them but Marriott is #1 for a reason.  I only like the best, that's why I work for State Farm  (no mean comments about SF please haha)


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 3, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> All good thoughts.  I'm sure some of you are thinking I'm being stubborn here but renting seems to make the most sense to me AFTER the hybrid purchase. I want to own, I want the peace of mind knowing that I will have points for me over the next 40-50 years.  I really think that Marriott will change that one day.  I might be wrong and might end up paying more but I know we will use these like crazy.  Traveling is just something we both love to do.  Kids in school will change things but the wife is leaning towards homeschooling (i'm not quite there yet but she usually wins).
> 
> As far as waiting and testing the waters goes. Like I've said a few times this was my 5th presentation.  I've been to the Manor Club, Grand Chateau, Ko Olina, Tahoe, Harbour Lake and Park City.  Marriott has my heart.  We use Hyatt a lot for work and I like them but Marriott is #1 for a reason.  I only like the best, that's why I work for State Farm  (no mean comments about SF please haha)



You are not alone.....that is why VAC stock has done quite well since the spinoff from Marriott.

Live long and prosper....and have great vacations while doing so!!!!


----------



## kds4 (Oct 3, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> I don't think you were being critical.  Very helpful actually.  I decided to not go with Manor and they are looking at Cypress Harbour, Grande Vista, Reserve and Harbour lake.  Even though I'm doing this for points I do like the idea that if I forget or something happens that we have a resort down there.  Only a 8 hour drive for us.  And the MF's were about $100 less a year.



We feel similarly and it is about the same distance down there for us. We exchange and/or convert our weeks to points far more often than we stay at our home resort, but having one we like to go to (as a prior poster commented) has been a great fall back.


----------



## Seaport104 (Oct 3, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> I don't think you were being critical.  Very helpful actually.  I decided to not go with Manor and they are looking at Cypress Harbour, Grande Vista, Reserve and Harbour lake.  Even though I'm doing this for points I do like the idea that if I forget or something happens that we have a resort down there.  Only a 8 hour drive for us.  And the MF's were about $100 less a year.



My recommendation is Grande Vista platinum, 3BR preferred, with the florida club option. Here's why-

- you get 3,775 points for 1500 in maintenance fees which is below the .50 cents per trust point. Since you are purchasing 2,000 trust points I think you have to buy an every other year so it equals/comes close to  the 2,000 points purchase

- if you trade it in Interval you can lock off and get two weeks, if trading for another Marriott no exchange fee and free retrades

- If you want to use your deeded week, you can book Ocean Pointe (beachfront FL property), Beachplace Towers, Miami Doral and Legend's Edge at 6 months out provided you are flexible with dates and are not looking to go during holidays.


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 3, 2015)

Seaport104 said:


> My recommendation is Grande Vista platinum, 3BR preferred, with the florida club option. Here's why-
> 
> - you get 3,775 points for 1500 in maintenance fees which is below the .50 cents per trust point. Since you are purchasing 2,000 trust points I think you have to buy an every other year so it equals/comes close to  the 2,000 points purchase
> 
> ...



This makes some great sense.  MF/point on the 3BR MGV Platinum Every other Year is down around $0.39 per point.  And everybody touts the great trading power of the 3BR MGV in II....and the FL Club is a nice added feature to be able to book other FL properties and not have to deal with II.   Are EOY's available via MVC Resales usually??? I don't see any listed on their website.  

For the OP's benefit, when you convert an EOY into points, do you get the full points every other year, and then need to bank or borrow if you want half every year.  Not exactly sure how that works, so it would likely be important for the OP to know that to help in his decision making.


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 4, 2015)

Seaport104 said:


> My recommendation is Grande Vista platinum, 3BR preferred, with the florida club option. Here's why-
> 
> - you get 3,775 points for 1500 in maintenance fees which is below the .50 cents per trust point. Since you are purchasing 2,000 trust points I think you have to buy an every other year so it equals/comes close to  the 2,000 points purchase
> 
> ...





Fasttr said:


> This makes some great sense.  MF/point on the 3BR MGV Platinum Every other Year is down around $0.39 per point.  And everybody touts the great trading power of the 3BR MGV in II....and the FL Club is a nice added feature to be able to book other FL properties and not have to deal with II.   Are EOY's available via MVC Resales usually??? I don't see any listed on their website.
> 
> For the OP's benefit, when you convert an EOY into points, do you get the full points every other year, and then need to bank or borrow if you want half every year.  Not exactly sure how that works, so it would likely be important for the OP to know that to help in his decision making.



The EOY Platinum 3BR Grand Vista is a hybrid that I've had my eye on for a long time and is something I've considered as way to boosting myself to Executive if and when that time comes. The MF per point is excellent and the EOY minimizes the point purchase you need to make since as an EOY, you only have to buy half the points the week is worth.

They had EOY Platinum 3BR at Grand Vista on the Marriott Resales site last fall, but I haven't seen one online since.

It would be interesting if the OP could ask his salesman about this and see if they have 3BR EOY Platinums available at Grand Vista, but unlisted, or how often they have them.


----------



## JIMinNC (Oct 4, 2015)

burg1121 said:


> I have never understood why some people don't like trading with II but each to his own.



I hate the waiting and the uncertainty with traditional weeks-based timeshare trading. I also don't like the limitation of 7 day stays. I struggled for 16 years trying to RCI trade the years we didn't use our week at our former home resort at Kaanapali Beach Club in another system. We thankfully sold that ownership a year ago right after we bought our Marriott hybrid for our DC Points, but we still have TPUs left over in RCI that we're struggling to use. We did finally manage to get an RCI trade to HHI this past summer and another to HGVC on the Big Island next summer, but in each case, we had to wait six months or so for a trade to come through. I hate that. 

With DC Points - so far - every reservation I've wanted - including a 2BR OF on Maui in the high 2016 summer season - I've been able to book online, real time, first time on the Points website. Maybe my opinion might change in the future, but given we'll have more flexibility in 2017 after our youngest heads off to college - I suspect that Points will work even better then. 

Having said all this, I am going to try an up-trade to Gold season in HHI through II with our Silver Barony week for 2017 as a test to try to squeeze a little more value out of that week, but I don't want to have to rely on the trading game for most trips. It takes too much waiting and work when I can just go online and book something with Points.


----------



## Seaport104 (Oct 4, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> This makes some great sense.  MF/point on the 3BR MGV Platinum Every other Year is down around $0.39 per point.  And everybody touts the great trading power of the 3BR MGV in II....and the FL Club is a nice added feature to be able to book other FL properties and not have to deal with II.   Are EOY's available via MVC Resales usually??? I don't see any listed on their website.
> 
> For the OP's benefit, when you convert an EOY into points, do you get the full points every other year, and then need to bank or borrow if you want half every year.  Not exactly sure how that works, so it would likely be important for the OP to know that to help in his decision making.



In addition in nothing to deal with II, you also don't need to use trust points to book those weeks. Booking those platinum weeks are a ton of points within the DC system and surely would cost a lot more to book in points.

With the EOY, you get the full points in the year of use so you just bank or borrow in the off years. 

Another plus with the EOY 3 BR, the annual maintenance of approx $750 is less than an annual manor club maintenance fees.

As for availability, my understanding is the website isn't updated daily so it is possible that they are available. However, availability would depend on an owner listing their EOY with Marriott Resale to broker. 

Before they came out with the current offer to buy DC points to enroll post 2010 weeks I looking for one and they did not have it at the time but that was over a year ago.


----------



## dgf15215 (Oct 5, 2015)

S8Farm - you are in an ideal position to enjoy the points program. My wife and I are also both self-employed and very flexible in our ability to schedule time off, that's really helpful in this situation. We first purchased two, three weeks over the course of time that we traded through RCI years ago. When the points program came into being we purchased points and now trade all our weeks for points. Based on your age you 're starting a little younger than we did which means the cost of the points themselves will be more easily amortized over the long haul. The flexibility of arriving and departing on our own schedule as opposed to the locked-in week schedule has been a great asset to us, especially in terms of the length of stay and best airline arrangements. I'm just learning about renting points and am pretty fascinated by the prospect. Yes, the entire enterprise is expensive but it's a great value. We also own a condo in a summer cultural resort area with a short season. As one of the Board members of that 16-unit building I now know the full cost of maintaining a building even without pools, landscaping and elevators. I really appreciate showing up and it being pretty much perfect each time, then leaving and not worrying about it. And a few weeks ago while we were in Newport Beach (a really great property) we got pitched the deal with buying a resale week and lowering the cost per point that way. If we weren't done buying points I might have jumped at that. Good luck.


----------



## Fasttr (Oct 6, 2015)

S8Farm.....so, I would imaging that you must have nailed down a hybrid deal by now.

Just curious what combo you ended up going with???


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 9, 2015)

Fasttr said:


> S8Farm.....so, I would imaging that you must have nailed down a hybrid deal by now.
> 
> Just curious what combo you ended up going with???



Sorry for the late response, must have missed it.  We went with the Cypress Harbor Sport for $5500.  The MF's were about the same as Manor but we are much more interested in visiting Orlando than Wburg if we ever forgot to switch the points or didn't want to mess with trading.  It will give me 1975 points.  So between both packages we are getting bout $7.20 a point.  We are looking forward to many great memories.

We are trying to decide between Aruba, St Croix or St Thomas for our first trip.  What do you guys think?


----------



## dgf15215 (Oct 9, 2015)

I would check out the cost of flying. For me, Aruba is the best connection both in time it takes and the cost. Plus Aruba is a great destination IMHO with lots of things for kids to do and an entire "village" for tourists within a short walk away with restaurants, movie theaters and shopping.


----------



## dioxide45 (Oct 9, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> Sorry for the late response, must have missed it.  We went with the Cypress Harbor Sport for $5500.  The MF's were about the same as Manor but we are much more interested in visiting Orlando than Wburg if we ever forgot to switch the points or didn't want to mess with trading.  It will give me 1975 points.  So between both packages we are getting bout $7.20 a point.  We are looking forward to many great memories.
> 
> We are trying to decide between Aruba, St Croix or St Thomas for our first trip.  What do you guys think?



St Thomas may be the easist trade in DC points followed by Aruba. Though both are probably pretty easy depending on when you are going. Marriott doesn't have a vacation club in St Croix. Not sure how you would look to get there. We went to St Croix on a cruise stop and had a good time but it is a totally different vibe than St Thomas or St John and all three are very different from Aruba.


----------



## Seaport104 (Oct 9, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> Sorry for the late response, must have missed it.  We went with the Cypress Harbor Sport for $5500.  The MF's were about the same as Manor but we are much more interested in visiting Orlando than Wburg if we ever forgot to switch the points or didn't want to mess with trading.  It will give me 1975 points.  So between both packages we are getting bout $7.20 a point.  We are looking forward to many great memories.
> 
> We are trying to decide between Aruba, St Croix or St Thomas for our first trip.  What do you guys think?



Congrats in your purchase! Your purchase was well thought out and you are buying because that's what you want as opposed to others who go in a presentation and buy on a whim to later regret it. 

As for Aruba, St. Croix, St Thomas- Aruba is my favorite. 

I wasn't too impressed with St. Croix. Wouldn't go back, felt very isolated and safety I think is an issue at night. St. Thomas I would go back but not much to do after dark. The town closes early unlike Aruba where after a long day at the beach you can walk comfortably at night to the "strip" with the restaurants and stores open until 11 - midnight.


----------



## kenkeller48 (Oct 10, 2015)

*Marriott timeshares aren't what they used to be*

It would be wrong to compare your parents' experiences with the system that exists today, which is calibrated to extract as much money from timeshare owners as possible while not delivering on their promises.  When we bought in the 90's it was a reasonably good value to have a timeshare.  The choice of properties was robust and trades came easily to us.  Today, with the internet, you don't need to expend a large amount of capital to get a quality vacation experience.  In fact, I know that I can rent my home unit for far less than my annual maintenance costs and I don't have to master an incomprehensible and unfriendly process for scheduling a vacation.  My advice is:  bank your money and use tripadvisor.com or vrbo to book your vacations whenever and wherever you want.


----------



## mjhines (Oct 10, 2015)

*Decisions, decisions*

Looks like this thread is drawing to a close, so I would like to append a comment on the shared wisdom it demonstrates. I am just shy of 80 years, a 20 year timeshare user (points and weeks) and a long time admirer of TUG. I read this thread carefully even though I have no involvement with Marriott nor any misconceptions about sales presentations or buying commitments. But I wanted to say that the conversation here should be offered to newbies as a prime example of how TUG works. My congratulations to all posters for reasoned, pertinent, intelligent and considerate presentations. The results are clearly rewarding to the OP and pleasing to this TUG member. Thank you all.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 10, 2015)

mjhines said:


> Looks like this thread is drawing to a close, so I would like to append a comment on the shared wisdom it demonstrates. I am just shy of 80 years, a 20 year timeshare user (points and weeks) and a long time admirer of TUG. I read this thread carefully even though I have no involvement with Marriott nor any misconceptions about sales presentations or buying commitments. But I wanted to say that the conversation here should be offered to newbies as a prime example of how TUG works. My congratulations to all posters for reasoned, pertinent, intelligent and considerate presentations. The results are clearly rewarding to the OP and pleasing to this TUG member. Thank you all.



Well said.  I'm very glad that i found this community and have learned a ton.  It is saved as a favorite and will be checking it often


----------



## HtownRose (Oct 11, 2015)

S8Farm said:


> my mom works for Delta seasonally. So she flies for free all year round and only works 4 months.  They have close to 7000 points and they use every last one of them.  Working for the airlines and this points system is a match made in heaven haha



Sorry for the off-topic reply, but would love to hear more about your mom's job ~ research for my bridge-to-retirement job search.


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 11, 2015)

HtownRose said:


> Sorry for the off-topic reply, but would love to hear more about your mom's job ~ research for my bridge-to-retirement job search.



She started working for Delta a few years ago as a gate agent.  She started out working part time, then went seasonal.  She and my dad get to fly standby for free year around but she only works from May to the end of August. Sometimes they call her in for Christmas but I think she can say no.  Kids 25 and under share their same benefit (her parents do as well). Kids over 25 fly at a pretty decent discount (I usually fly to Cali for a little less than $200 but I just saw that I can go to Brazil for less than $400) but son and daughter in laws unfortunately don't count.  She also gets a number of buddy passes a year to use at her discretion.  The standby life can be really annoying sometimes but once you figure out the trends and when to fly and not to fly then you can usually do pretty well.  There are 6 kids in my family so this has been a great thing for us.  

But like I said earlier I don't know if there is a better job for MVC members.  If you can put up with mean and privileged travelers (I'm sure I'm talking about some of you ) for the awesome benefit then it will go a long ways.  They've added points 2 or 3 times and now that I've shared this renting concept they will be even better off.

Last thing about it. We were able to do Ko Olina with all 6 kids (all are married and most have kids) between the travel benefits, buddy passes and points it was probably the cheapest anyone has ever done Hawaii with a family that big in the history of the world :whoopie: So I would definitely look into it. Pay sucks ( I think she makes like $10-12 hour) but if you've done well or spouse is still working (my Dad is a VP for an auto group and makes decent money) then this is a great option.  But I do know it's not easy to get into because it's pretty competitive.  Really helps if you live near a big hub.

Wow I typed a lot! Hope it helps!


----------



## S8Farm (Oct 11, 2015)

kenkeller48 said:


> It would be wrong to compare your parents' experiences with the system that exists today, which is calibrated to extract as much money from timeshare owners as possible while not delivering on their promises.  When we bought in the 90's it was a reasonably good value to have a timeshare.  The choice of properties was robust and trades came easily to us.  Today, with the internet, you don't need to expend a large amount of capital to get a quality vacation experience.  In fact, I know that I can rent my home unit for far less than my annual maintenance costs and I don't have to master an incomprehensible and unfriendly process for scheduling a vacation.  My advice is:  bank your money and use tripadvisor.com or vrbo to book your vacations whenever and wherever you want.



My parents experience has all come in the last few years since the points system came around.  They originally bought 2 EOY's in Ko Olina about 10 years ago but have had a much better experience with points.  I know that it's not for everyone but has worked well for our family.


----------

