# 2019 MF's Discussion thread



## TravelTime (Nov 4, 2018)

It seems like most of Marriott is averaging 4-5% increase on average.


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## SeaDoc (Nov 4, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> It seems like most of Marriott is averaging 4-5% increase on average.



Avg hotel rate increase for 2018 - 3.7% according to the following:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/324793/annual-growth-in-average-global-hotel-rates/


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## MOXJO7282 (Nov 4, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> It seems like most of Marriott is averaging 4-5% increase on average.


It seems that way. That is too much to be sustainable.  I'm not sure what the long term solution is.


SeaDoc said:


> Avg hotel rate increase for 2018 - 3.7% according to the following:
> 
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/324793/annual-growth-in-average-global-hotel-rates/


I would've loved to have my Marriott TSs follow the hotel increases since 2010. Hotels have increased at a much more reasonable rate.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 4, 2018)

A 5% increase in MFs also means a 5% increase in the management fee. Management fee revenue is the second largest revenue item for VAC. About 13% of gross revenue. So by increasing the fees at a steady pace, it allows them to show additional growth in the company.


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## VacationForever (Nov 4, 2018)

Our Marriott MF have certainly increased much more than our Vistana's.  The rate that MVCI increases MF is worrisome.  I would assume that Vistana is going to start to see the same high rate of increase starting from 2020.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 4, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> Our Marriott MF have certainly increased much more than our Vistana's.  The rate that MVCI increases MF is worrisome.  I would assume that Vistana is going to start to see the same high rate of increase starting from 2020.


Yes, that is a big concern since we are heavily invested in Marriott and Vistana. Our SVV maintenance fees actually went down for 2018. Still waiting to see what 2019 looks like.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 4, 2018)

After sitting through the Board of Directors meeting for Grande Vista a couple weeks ago, I can see why the fees are going up. Management at the resort seems to like their pet projects and toys. A towel folding machine a few years ago. Supposed to make it faster and more efficient to get towels back out to the pools? Did they lay off any staff to make up the difference? They say they just didn't have to increase fees as much the next year. Next they want a Towel Tracker to the tune of at lease $30,000 each. That should mean you need at least one less person to constantly clean up towels and dole them out. I didn't hear any of the board members holding the managements feet to the fire as to if they were going to lay off staff or reduce needed staff through attrition. Management seems good at spending other people's money.

_ETA: They are also adding a media wall at Grande Vista. To the tune of about $120,000 IIRC. These all also incur a management fee against the cost._


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## VacationForever (Nov 4, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Yes, that is a big concern since we are heavily invested in Marriott and Vistana. Our SVV maintenance fees actually went down for 2018. Still waiting to see what 2019 looks like.


My 2018 SVR went down from 2017 and the proposed 2019 MF appears to be about the same or lower than 2018.  I have not looked at an exact dollar comparison but I would consider it flat to down.


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## suenmike32 (Nov 5, 2018)

May I ask....what is a "media wall"?


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 5, 2018)

Is there an opportunity in these meetings for owners to voice their comments and dissent to such items? It seems these should be recorded into the minutes at a minimum.

Can owners introduce a benchmark relative to competition such as Hyatt and Hilton which are more efficient for similar quality and tend to be $500 to $1000 less in MF per year. That would be a leading indicator of mgt effectiveness. 

How do they measure if mgt is doing a good job? Is mgt bonused on meeting certain objectives such as cost improvements and guest satisfaction. Most modern businesses operate this way.

I am not sure what this media wall is but if it is used to advertise Marrott timeshares this is inappropriate spend.


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## jont (Nov 5, 2018)

suenmike32 said:


> May I ask....what is a "media wall"?


I believe it is a permanent large outdoor movie screen/tv mounted on a wall.


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## davidvel (Nov 5, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Is there an opportunity in these meetings for owners to voice their comments and dissent to such items? It seems these should be recorded into the minutes at a minimum.
> 
> Can owners introduce a benchmark relative to competition such as Hyatt and Hilton which are more efficient for similar quality and tend to be $500 to $1000 less in MF per year. That would be a leading indicator of mgt effectiveness.
> 
> ...


If the hoa (aka resort) board wasn't stacked, we could pick any management  company  we want. But as long as we want our timeshare to begin with the word "Marriot's",  none of this matters. There is no competition,  and the management company makes MORE profit when it spends more of our money. It's  backward. No incentive to reduce costs, only pressure to increase profit (and our mf).


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## davidvel (Nov 5, 2018)

jont said:


> I believe it is a permanent large outdoor movie screen/tv mounted on a wall.


Yes, it's  like a jumbotron at a stadium.


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## Superchief (Nov 5, 2018)

Since the implementation of the points program, I have noticed that MVC properties are becoming more like resorts than timeshare condominiums. A larger percentage of guests at each resort are not owners, so they don't really care about the costs. There have been significant increases in activity expenses, activity staff, guest services, HR, and housekeeping. Management wants to inflate their resort CS scores rather than manage costs. I would prefer reductions in these non-essential areas and that guests pay for their activities rather than owners. I recently returned from Oceana Palms and couldn't believe the number of activities offered (many complimentary) and the size of the staff. This is a smaller resort and most owners don't even want most of the activities and would prefer more peaceful experiences by the pool.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 5, 2018)

Superchief said:


> Since the implementation of the points program, I have noticed that MVC properties are becoming more like resorts than timeshare condominiums. A larger percentage of guests at each resort are not owners, so they don't really care about the costs. There have been significant increases in activity expenses, activity staff, guest services, HR, and housekeeping. Management wants to inflate their resort CS scores rather than manage costs. I would prefer reductions in these non-essential areas and that guests pay for their activities rather than owners. I recently returned from Oceana Palms and couldn't believe the number of activities offered (many complimentary) and the size of the staff. This is a smaller resort and most owners don't even want most of the activities and would prefer more peaceful experiences by the pool.



I think you are correct that the experience is evolving toward a more inclusive resort experience rather than the more traditional timeshare condominium experience. But we actually like that and that is the reason we opted for Marriott and HGVC ownership rather than a more traditional condo timeshare. While we don't usually use a lot of the activities, obviously some folks do or they wouldn't offer them. But we do like our timeshare resorts to offer food service, on site pool bars, etc. When we stayed at a Diamond property in Sedona earlier this year, it was more the condo-style resort and we missed the on-site pool bar and food services we usually get at MVC and HGVC. I suspect the evolution to a more resort-style experience is just a reflection of changing traveler tastes - just like the addition of the Pulse locations reflects changing travel preferences.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 5, 2018)

Superchief said:


> Since the implementation of the points program, I have noticed that MVC properties are becoming more like resorts than timeshare condominiums. A larger percentage of guests at each resort are not owners, so they don't really care about the costs. There have been significant increases in activity expenses, activity staff, guest services, HR, and housekeeping. Management wants to inflate their resort CS scores rather than manage costs. I would prefer reductions in these non-essential areas and that guests pay for their activities rather than owners. I recently returned from Oceana Palms and couldn't believe the number of activities offered (many complimentary) and the size of the staff. This is a smaller resort and most owners don't even want most of the activities and would prefer more peaceful experiences by the pool.



We bought in prior to the spin-off of the timeshares from the hotel company and prior to the points program even being rumored. We specifically chose SurfWatch for a number of reasons, first being its footprint and dedication to Hilton Head's natural setting but also because it had extensive onsite amenities, healthy staffing and a full activities schedule with a good mix of free and fee-based offerings. Over the years they've added some, subtracted some, but I wouldn't want them to prioritize cost savings for owners if it results in a condo-like community. If that were what we wanted for our vacations, we wouldn't have bought at SurfWatch - we would have simply continued renting at the condos just down the beach from SurfWatch, which is where we'd been staying for a few years prior and which is what drove us to a tour of SurfWatch!

Over our years of owning at Barony we've happily watched them upgrade the units, footprint and activities/amenities to be more like SurfWatch's. The pool area at the gardenside section and the bar/grille at the oceanside area in particular are huge improvements over what had been there before, well worth the costs and increased staffing levels required to maintain them.

When visiting the other resorts we like a healthy mix, too. I always know that the older resorts won't offer as much as the newer but I'm not at all interested in using Marriott Weeks or Points to visit a resort-style complex that doesn't offer resort-style amenities (and like Jim says, we know going in that Pulse properties are different animals altogether.) Honestly, I'm still sad after learning that Waiohai no longer has its onsite restaurant, despite not knowing if we'll ever stay there again. We enjoyed two very nice meals there over a two-week stay and came away wishing that every resort could have a full-service restaurant! 

I think we're what could be called midrange owners - we weren't there at the MVC and Weeks inception but were well-established before MVW and Points came on the scene. 5% annual MF increases didn't sound crazy when we bought and honestly, don't sound crazy now. My thinking has always been that as long as we're getting from our Marriott spends experiences that make the costs appear within reason (and of course as long as our discretionary budget can absorb them) then we're happy. So far, so good.


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## TravelTime (Nov 5, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> I think you are correct that the experience is evolving toward a more inclusive resort experience rather than the more traditional timeshare condominium experience. But we actually like that and that is the reason we opted for Marriott and HGVC ownership rather than a more traditional condo timeshare. While we don't usually use a lot of the activities, obviously some folks do or they wouldn't offer them. But we do like our timeshare resorts to offer food service, on site pool bars, etc. When we stayed at a Diamond property in Sedona earlier this year, it was more the condo-style resort and we missed the on-site pool bar and food services we usually get at MVC and HGVC. I suspect the evolution to a more resort-style experience is just a reflection of changing traveler tastes - just like the addition of the Pulse locations reflects changing travel preferences.



Me too. That is why I bought into Marriott Vacation Club and other similar vacation clubs. I like a resort experience with lots of activities, amenities, services, restaurants and things to do, even if I do not use them. I am not a condo-type of vacationer. If I were, I would not have joined any timeshares since renting through AirBnB or VRBO would be cheaper and more flexible.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 5, 2018)

When people ask me, "Why not just rent an AirBnB?" I tell them two things: 1) I want to ensure the quality and cleanliness of the unit; 2) I want the resort-like amenities.


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## StevenTing (Nov 5, 2018)

I've been tracking and forecasting my MF's for a number of years, trying to gauge what I will need to come up with in the future.  Most of my timeshares are in Hawaii and I have see the MF's growing faster than the historical average while Grand Chateau has been less than average.  Current increase over my all of my timeshares is 4.63%.  Hopefully my income keeps pace.

Not surprising but the DC fees are higher than historical average.  My guess is because additional properties continue to be added, this is pulling up the cost.  If the integrate the ILG properties in the Trust, I wonder if the % increase will be higher or lower than average.

Including 2019 fees, looks like I will have paid about $58k in MF's since my first ownership.  I'm currently paying about $11.5k.  In about 10 years, it will be between $17k-$18k.  The nice thing, however, is that I'm receiving about $20k in value for my stays had I rented the same time from Redweek.


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## klkaylor (Nov 5, 2018)

Anyone know what this Chairmans Club Fee is for that I got in my trust points MF bill?


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## SueDonJ (Nov 5, 2018)

klkaylor said:


> Anyone know what this Chairmans Club Fee is for that I got in my trust points MF bill?



From the TUG Points FAQ:
"...
*~~ Other DC Costs ~~*

- *All Members* must pay the *annual Club Dues* fee which is based on the number of DC Points that a Trust Member owns, or, for which an Exchange Member is eligible through all Enrolled Weeks, or, a combination of both. Effective with the 2019 invoices the fees are:

*$205 Owners and Select Members*
*$245 Executive and Presidential Members*
*$270 Chairman's Club Members*
(Historically at the DC introduction on 6/20/10 these fees ranged between $165 and $199.)

The Club Dues fee covers a corporate membership in Interval International's external exchange system, as well as most Marriott and II administration and transaction fees for DC Trust and DC Exchange Members.

The Club Dues fee for DC Trust Members is included as a component of the annual MF's invoice, with a payment due date of December 1.

The Club Dues fee for DC Exchange/Enrolled Members is invoiced separately from the Weeks MF's bills, with a payment due date of December 10.
..."


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## Luvtoride (Nov 5, 2018)

Steve,
Thanks for sharing your detailed analysis...this is a great way to review and forecast your overall cost of owning your TS.  

I do an analysis which I use to determine my usage each year prior to the deadlines for converting weeks to MR points, converting to DC points or using the week with Marriott to book/ lockoff, trade or deposit to Interval.  

Any of us who own multiple weeks and points, no matter how they were acquired need to carefully track our portfolio to make sure we get the most beneficial usage each year for our needs. 

Thanks for the great example, Steve. 



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45 (Nov 5, 2018)

suenmike32 said:


> May I ask....what is a "media wall"?


As others pointed out, it is a large screen where they can show movies and such around the pool. There is already one similar at Shadow Ridge. Here is a thread discussing it when it was being built.

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/new-jumbotron-at-enclaves-shadow-ridge.243696/


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## dioxide45 (Nov 5, 2018)

I am all for the resort experience. When it comes to food and beverage options, on site restaurants are great. They should however pay for themselves and really have no impact on the owners MF bill since they are owned by Marriott Vacation Club. Owners get no benefit from them and I suspect if they constantly take losses, Marriott closes them down. Owners shouldn't have to subsidize on site restaurants. Of course we really shouldn't have to subsidize onsite golf either, but Grande Vista does that to the tune of $800,000 a year.

However, when it comes to activities, at Harbour Lake in 2010 the activities fee was $20.06 per unit week. In 2019 it is almost $50.00. That ends up being about $820,000 a year. For us at least, we don't feel like we are getting anything more per for our extra $30 or even for the full $50 since we don't partake in any activities when we are at a resort. I understand that activities are necessary but should we really be paying to give people free mimosas once a week? There are of course some activities that they charge for, but they either don't allocate that as an income item on the budget and just use it to offset the Activities line item or it is going to someone else (Marriott's bottom line?).

As for activities where there happens to be any sales staff on site (welcome reception), any cost really should be paid for by the sales department. There are of course a lot of other activities that I see on the sheet they hand out at checkin, it seems that the timeshare experience is getting to be more like the cruise experience when it comes to activities.

One interesting note. In 2018, Harbour Lake budgeted $792,000 for activities. Grande Vista was at $1.2 million. However, Grande Vista has almost three times the number of units than Harbour Lake has but are only spending about 50% more on activity costs. Not sure what to make of that. The proposed $50 per unit week for activities at Harbour Lake for 2019 seems to be somewhat out of line.

Overall, activities make up a small percentage of the overall MF budget, however, with them increasing the costs across all line items it starts to add up. I don't feel like I am getting more now than I was previously for what is now north of a $1,400 MF for each of these weeks. In the end it is still just 7 nights in a room.


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## TravelTime (Nov 5, 2018)

I guess you have to ask yourself if $200 a night is worth it at that location or whether you feel you are overpaying and it is time to sell. I can’t imagine paying less than that for a nice hotel room.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 5, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I guess you have to ask yourself if $200 a night is worth it at that location or whether you feel you are overpaying and it is time to sell. I can’t imagine paying less than that for a nice hotel room.


I really wouldn't compare it to a hotel. We probably wouldn't travel somewhere in a "hotel" for a week. We would for a road trip, but a timeshare wouldn't work for that kind of travel anyway. I would be more inclined to compare it to other types of travel to see if it offers a comparable vacation experience. Perhaps to all inclusive travel or cruising. So far it seems like cruising gives the best overall travel value IMO. For close to or even less than we pay in our MFs, I can take a seven night cruise including all food. I can probably find all-inclusive deals that are close to our MFs as well.

I am really not inclined to sell our Marriott weeks because I simply can't recreate what we have once they are gone since they are enrolled legacy resale weeks. There is simply no way I can get that back again without a huge cash investment. I would perhaps try to rent out the DC points in years when we don't use them, but I certainly wouldn't get close to covering our MFs.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 5, 2018)

In the final analysis, the issue of resort activities/amenities that add to maintenance fees becomes one of personal preference. Some people actively use those amenities/activities and don't mind their maintenance fees paying for them. Some people don't want or need those activities/amenities and would prefer they be sold on an a la carte basis rather than forcing everyone to subsidize those things whether they use them or not. This latter group values lower fees and doesn't want to pay for things they never use. Some other people might be somewhere in between these two groups. That's probably where we fall.

Personally, we are not active users of resort activities, but do use many of the resort amenities - pool, bar, restaurants, etc. As dioxide45 notes, some of those are self supporting - bars and restaurants - but others are paid for by owners through maintenance fees - pool, exercise room, internet services, etc. I think people tend to prefer not to be nickel-and-dimed for things when on vacation, and by including many of the activities and amenities in the operating budget rather than as fee-for-service, it results in higher usage of the amenities and overall more satisfied guests. IMHO satisfied guests should be resort management's top priority, so including more is probably a better strategy than a la carte pricing. I personally don't have an issue with these things being included in the operating budget, even though we don't use that many of the activities. A resort has the responsibility to make sure that ALL guests have a great experience, and ensuring that those who use a lot of services don't feel like they are being nickel-and-dimed is important. Just because we don't benefit doesn't mean other guests don't benefit. 

Same thing happens at hotels - in our room rate/resort fee we pay for each night, we all pay for many amenities and services we don't use, but it allows the hotel to offer more services for those who do.

The same thing happens in our communities, states, and nation - we pay taxes to support many services we individually may never use, but it's all part of being a member of a community, state, or nation. I look at a timeshare HOA in much the same way - we pay in to support a "community" of vacationers - some utilize more of the amenities and services than others, but it's all part of ensuring that the resort meets the needs of as many owners as possible.


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## Superchief (Nov 5, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> I am all for the resort experience. When it comes to food and beverage options, on site restaurants are great. They should however pay for themselves and really have no impact on the owners MF bill since they are owned by Marriott Vacation Club. Owners get no benefit from them and I suspect if they constantly take losses, Marriott closes them down. Owners shouldn't have to subsidize on site restaurants. Of course we really shouldn't have to subsidize onsite golf either, but Grande Vista does that to the tune of $800,000 a year.
> 
> However, when it comes to activities, at Harbour Lake in 2010 the activities fee was $20.06 per unit week. In 2019 it is almost $50.00. That ends up being about $820,000 a year. For us at least, we don't feel like we are getting anything more per for our extra $30 or even for the full $50 since we don't partake in any activities when we are at a resort. I understand that activities are necessary but should we really be paying to give people free mimosas once a week? There are of course some activities that they charge for, but they either don't allocate that as an income item on the budget and just use it to offset the Activities line item or it is going to someone else (Marriott's bottom line?).
> 
> .


I totally agree. I appreciate the resort experience regarding food and beverage options and recreational facilities. I expect to pay for nice pools, fitness centers, and reasonable other options (putt putt, game rooms, etc.). The food and beverage options should be good quality at a fair price and should pay for themselves or generate profit. Oceana Palms has upgraded their onsite restaurant, market place, and bar and I find it to be better quality and price than Ocean Pointe. It is now a money maker for the resort. My problem is with the increase in costly activities that aren't critical to the vacation experience and should be funded by the participants. These include many of the 'free alcohol' or food events that are becoming more common. I enjoy wine and local beer tastings, but I would prefer to pay a nominal amount that would cover the cost. Activity fees have increased substantially at Canyon Villas, Mountainside, and Oceana Palms. The projected cost for 2019 activities at Oceana Palms is over $100. I assume there are also increases in staffing that are included in other budget items. These are discretionary expenses that can be better managed.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 5, 2018)

Superchief said:


> My problem is with the increase in costly activities that aren't critical to the vacation experience and should be funded by the participants. These include many of the 'free alcohol' or food events that are becoming more common. I enjoy wine and local beer tastings, but I would prefer to pay a nominal amount that would cover the cost.



The free alcohol and food events are becoming more common all across the hospitality business. Several hotels I've been at recently were offering free special events like that on some nights. The cost of those events is bundled into the room rates they charge. Given that trend, across multiple brands, I can only conclude they must be popular and considered successful based on post-stay surveys.


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## TravelTime (Nov 5, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> I really wouldn't compare it to a hotel. We probably wouldn't travel somewhere in a "hotel" for a week. We would for a road trip, but a timeshare wouldn't work for that kind of travel anyway. I would be more inclined to compare it to other types of travel to see if it offers a comparable vacation experience. Perhaps to all inclusive travel or cruising. So far it seems like cruising gives the best overall travel value IMO. For close to or even less than we pay in our MFs, I can take a seven night cruise including all food. I can probably find all-inclusive deals that are close to our MFs as well.
> 
> I am really not inclined to sell our Marriott weeks because I simply can't recreate what we have once they are gone since they are enrolled legacy resale weeks. There is simply no way I can get that back again without a huge cash investment. I would perhaps try to rent out the DC points in years when we don't use them, but I certainly wouldn't get close to covering our MFs.



I totally understand your point of view from an owner’s perspective and the alternate ways you can spend your money. We also need to think like a business. If Marriott can rent “our” units for $200-$700+ per night depending on the location and brand, then they will see a 4-5% increase as still being a good deal for us and as a necessary evil to keep the resorts in tip top condition. I am not defending Marriott and the MF increases but just trying to see both sides.


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## Superchief (Nov 5, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> The free alcohol and food events are becoming more common all across the hospitality business. Several hotels I've been at recently were offering free special events like that on some nights. The cost of those events is bundled into the room rates they charge. Given that trend, across multiple brands, I can only conclude they must be popular and considered successful based on post-stay surveys.


I've never been to a hotel that offered free drinks or food in the US. Even the CL's at Marriott's charge for alcoholic beverages, often at the same high prices as the hotel bar. I don't expect others to pay for my drinks or food, so I think that timeshare guests wouldn't mind paying nominal fees to cover the cost of the food/beverages.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 5, 2018)

IMO if there is some craft beer tasting or some other offering like that, they should be seeking out either a local vendor/restaurant that wants to come in to promote their business or if these are offerings sold by the onsite bars, then Marriott should be paying for those costs as it promotes their establishments. If the booze is dispensed by Marriott owned establishments on site to then promote those same establishments, it really shouldn't be paid for by the owners in the MF. I of course don't know, as I have never taken part in such tastings.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 6, 2018)

Superchief said:


> I've never been to a hotel that offered free drinks or food in the US. Even the CL's at Marriott's charge for alcoholic beverages, often at the same high prices as the hotel bar. I don't expect others to pay for my drinks or food, so I think that timeshare guests wouldn't mind paying nominal fees to cover the cost of the food/beverages.



I was at a Springhill Suites or Hilton Garden earlier this year - I can't remember the exact brand where this was offered, but it was not one of the full service brands - and one night they had free beer and light snacks for about an hour in the lobby. We also attended a free reception with food and free drinks for higher-level Marriott Rewards members at the W hotel in Barcelona in September - free drinks from the bar and everyone got a mimosa upon arrival at the hour-long event. I also recall there was some event we missed on at least one of our visits to the Westin Hilton Head this summer.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 6, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> I would be more inclined to compare it to other types of travel to see if it offers a comparable vacation experience. Perhaps to all inclusive travel or cruising. So far it seems like cruising gives the best overall travel value IMO. For close to or even less than we pay in our MFs, I can take a seven night cruise including all food. I can probably find all-inclusive deals that are close to our MFs as well.



I'm not sure a cruise is really comparable, since you are usually comparing a small cruise stateroom that might be only 100-150 square feet to a much larger timeshare unit that could be 700-1400 square feet. On our recent Azamara Mediterranean cruise, we did book a larger suite category stateroom that was almost 500 square feet with a separate living room, bedroom, bathroom, and a large balcony. But that single eight-night cruise cost us almost three times the TOTAL maintenance fee bill for our DC Points, 1.5 MVC weeks, and one HGVC week.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 6, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> I'm not sure a cruise is really comparable, since you are usually comparing a small cruise stateroom that might be only 100-150 square feet to a much larger timeshare unit that could be 700-1400 square feet. On our recent Azamara Mediterranean cruise, we did book a larger suite category stateroom that was almost 500 square feet with a separate living room, bedroom, bathroom, and a large balcony. But that single eight-night cruise cost us almost three times the TOTAL maintenance fee bill for our DC Points, 1.5 MVC weeks, and one HGVC week.


I don't think it is an unfair comparison. When I am traveling on a cruise, it is usually only two people and I expect a small stateroom. I am not going on a cruise for a large 2BR villa. We usually don't travel with large groups where the economics of a 2BR unit may make more sense. I need only compare the vacation value I get from one vs the other. Right now, it seems that cruise is winning. Size of the cabin on a cruise is of little importance to us since most time is spent outside of it.


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## VacationForever (Nov 6, 2018)

I do agree that cruising makes a compelling value proposition especially for a couple.  We spend 2 to 3X on cruising over our timeshare MF.  All meals are included, plus a variety of activities and entertainment.  We always get great service and food. We are cruising 24 nights this year, 10 nights in a 200 sq ft room and 14 nights in a 500 sq ft room.  Next year we have 16 nights in a 600 sq ft room.  In 2020 we will be back to a 200 sq ft room for 27 nights. We never find a 200 sq ft stateroom too small. A kitchen is unnecessary.  Besides the bed and bathroom, there is a sitting area and a balcony, and we get housekeeping twice a day.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 6, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think it is an unfair comparison. When I am traveling on a cruise, it is usually only two people and I expect a small stateroom. I am not going on a cruise for a large 2BR villa. We usually don't travel with large groups where the economics of a 2BR unit may make more sense. I need only compare the vacation value I get from one vs the other. Right now, it seems that cruise is winning. Size of the cabin on a cruise is of little importance to us since most time is spent outside of it.





VacationForever said:


> I do agree that cruising makes a compelling value proposition especially for a couple.  We spend 2 to 3X on cruising over our timeshare MF.  All meals are included, plus a variety of activities and entertainment.  We always get great service and food. We are cruising 24 nights this year, 10 nights in a 200 sq ft room and 14 nights in a 500 sq ft room.  Next year we have 16 nights in a 600 sq ft room.  In 2020 we will be back to a 200 sq ft room for 27 nights. We never find a 200 sq ft stateroom too small. A kitchen is unnecessary  Besides the bed and bathroom, there is a sitting area and a balcony, and we get housrkeeping twice a day.



I didn't mean to imply that I didn't think there was comparable value in a cruise, just my way of looking at it is they are two different experiences that are hard to directly compare. For example, we didn't* need* the larger suite stateroom on our September cruise, but it sure was nice to have the extra space, large balcony to enjoy breakfast and our own private sun loungers, and a table and chairs/couch in the living room to enjoy the fruit, shrimp, meat snacks the butler delivered to our cabin each afternoon. The large walk-in shower and separate tub was also a nice perk compared to the normally tiny cruise bathrooms. It was basically like a 1BR timeshare unit, just without the kitchen, which as VacationForever notes, wasn't needed due to the all-inclusive meals/wine/drinks, etc. 

For us, the "value" of timeshares are the extra space, kitchen, amenities, etc - even for just the two of us - at a much better price than renting comparable hotel suites or resort accommodations. We rarely now travel with a larger group than  just us. For us the "value" of the cruise was not the cost-based "value", but the experience "value". From a purely cost perspective, it wasn't a good "value" at all. Our cost per night was north of $1,500, but the experience was priceless. It was our first cruise since a Disney cruise with our kids 11 years ago, so we are now looking at cruising as a more experiential activity, rather than something we look at as a cost-efficient way to travel like timeshares. We're doing a Tahiti cruise next summer and another Azamara Greek Isles cruise in 2020.


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## LUVourMarriotts (Nov 9, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Is there an opportunity in these meetings for owners to voice their comments and dissent to such items?



In the past, I have asked this question to a member of the HOA board at Aruba Surf Club, and just recently asked this question to the GM at Fairway Villas.  I was told, by both, that they have less than 1% of the ownerships feelings towards any given project.  It is up to the board to review all suggestions that are presented to them.  It is also up to the board to determine which of the suggestions they explore, and which they discard.  The reason I asked is because I read about new additions in quarterly newsletters and thought to myself, that is a stupid addition/feature, why was that added?  

The way the board sees it, if they do a project that only costs each owner $10 in MF, and some percentage of guests will enjoy this new feature, lets do it.  But where does it end?  Does every resort need new features added every year?  The percentage of guests that will actually use this feature should be a very important factor when determining to do the project.  But the board has no way of getting that data.  If there was just some sort of technology that allows many people to be contacted and vote, without USPS costs, that would be great!    (I get that technology costs something too)


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 9, 2018)

LUVourMarriotts said:


> In the past, I have asked this question to a member of the HOA board at Aruba Surf Club, and just recently asked this question to the GM at Fairway Villas.  I was told, by both, that they have less than 1% of the ownerships feelings towards any given project.  It is up to the board to review all suggestions that are presented to them.  It is also up to the board to determine which of the suggestions they explore, and which they discard.  The reason I asked is because I read about new additions in quarterly newsletters and thought to myself, that is a stupid addition/feature, why was that added?
> 
> The way the board sees it, if they do a project that only costs each owner $10 in MF, and some percentage of guests will enjoy this new feature, lets do it.  But where does it end?  Does every resort need new features added every year?  The percentage of guests that will actually use this feature should be a very important factor when determining to do the project.  But the board has no way of getting that data.  If there was just some sort of technology that allows many people to be contacted and vote, without USPS costs, that would be great!    (I get that technology costs something too)



I am sorry but that seems like a very weak excuse. So they put their heads in the sand and make a guess as to what people want because they know better?

Imagine if our elected representatives said that they are not going to talk to constituents and calling or writing makes no difference to their decisions because that is only 1% and there is no way of knowing what people believe. (I am not trying to be political but trying to give another model to demonstrate why this response by Marriott is utter stupidity.)

I am not a Marriott owner but own Vistana and Hilton. Hilton is very interested in knowing what their owners want and getting their perspectives. HGVC maintenance fees also tend to be $500 to $1000 lower for similar quality and activities which is a key indicator of better management efficiency and effectiveness.

IMHO...The more I learn about Marriott the less I trust them. As a Vistana owner this kind of attitude by MVC is worrisome. Until I can get a sense of trust for Marriott and what they are going to do with ILG, we will not invest in more MVC/Vistana/Hyatt properties but will likely buy our next unit in HGVC.


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## TravelTime (Nov 9, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> I really wouldn't compare it to a hotel. We probably wouldn't travel somewhere in a "hotel" for a week. We would for a road trip, but a timeshare wouldn't work for that kind of travel anyway. I would be more inclined to compare it to other types of travel to see if it offers a comparable vacation experience. Perhaps to all inclusive travel or cruising. So far it seems like cruising gives the best overall travel value IMO. For close to or even less than we pay in our MFs, I can take a seven night cruise including all food. I can probably find all-inclusive deals that are close to our MFs as well.
> 
> I am really not inclined to sell our Marriott weeks because I simply can't recreate what we have once they are gone since they are enrolled legacy resale weeks. There is simply no way I can get that back again without a huge cash investment. I would perhaps try to rent out the DC points in years when we don't use them, but I certainly wouldn't get close to covering our MFs.



I am not sure if I would compare timeshare to cruises. My average timeshare week costs $2200 - $2600 per week plus food for Hawaii or a similar upscale destination for 2 adults. A cruise costs at least $6000 per week with food for a small stateroom for the minimum level of acceptable luxury cruise. If you are comparing low end cruises to timeshares, then cruises may look positive. For us, they are more expensive. In spite of that, we are cruising in Tahiti for 11 nights in 2019.


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## VacationForever (Nov 9, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I am not sure if I would compare timeshare to cruises. My average timeshare week costs $2200 - $2600 per week plus food for Hawaii or a similar upscale destination for 2 adults. A cruise costs at least $6000 per week with food for a small stateroom for the minimum level of acceptable luxury cruise. If you are comparing low end cruises to timeshares, then cruises may look positive. For us, they are more expensive. In spite of that, we are cruising in Tahiti for 11 nights in 2019.


I don't think we are saying that straight MF costs the same as the cost of a cruise.  We spend alot on cruises and they are certainly very luxurious.  While the stateroom is smaller than a timeshare villa, for us cruising is in direct competition with timesharing.  To eat as well in a timeshare as on a cruise, i.e. full service breakfast, lunch, dinner, entertainment, snacks - cakes, cookies with coffee and tea all day etc, daily housekeeping, now you are looking at comparable costs.


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## Steve Fatula (Nov 9, 2018)

We're one of those couples that actually enjoy the activities and for a weeks stay, we probably participate in ~5 of them. You can thank us for the increased cost. 

We just find they add enjoyment to the trip. We've been to many places quite a few times, and, activities give us more stuff to do we would likely never do otherwise. Being retired, don't care about relaxation type vacations, we have plenty of time to do that all year round. But I feel we are certainly in the minority noticing the attendance levels at various events. 

Cruises, we will likely never take one. It's just not for us. 

I do agree that 5% increase is not good if it continues long term.


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## Fredflintstone (Nov 9, 2018)

davidvel said:


> If the hoa (aka resort) board wasn't stacked, we could pick any management  company  we want. But as long as we want our timeshare to begin with the word "Marriot's",  none of this matters. There is no competition,  and the management company makes MORE profit when it spends more of our money. It's  backward. No incentive to reduce costs, only pressure to increase profit (and our mf).


That’s sadly what happens when they believe owners gave them a blank cheque on MFs through the contracts they signed. Perhaps they need to hear more complaints from the ownership. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45 (Nov 10, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I am not sure if I would compare timeshare to cruises. My average timeshare week costs $2200 - $2600 per week plus food for Hawaii or a similar upscale destination for 2 adults. A cruise costs at least $6000 per week with food for a small stateroom for the minimum level of acceptable luxury cruise. If you are comparing low end cruises to timeshares, then cruises may look positive. For us, they are more expensive. In spite of that, we are cruising in Tahiti for 11 nights in 2019.


A cruise for us would never cost anything close to $6000. While Marriott timeshares are nice, I wouldn't compare them to luxury cruises. They may compare more to the premium lines (Princess, Celebrity as examples) which might run a little more expensive than our average Marriott or Vistana MF, but the cruise comes with food and daily housekeeping. Also no need for a rental car.


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## TravelTime (Nov 10, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> A cruise for us would never cost anything close to $6000. While Marriott timeshares are nice, I wouldn't compare them to luxury cruises. They may compare more to the premium lines (Princess, Celebrity as examples) which might run a little more expensive than our average Marriott or Vistana MF, but the cruise comes with food and daily housekeeping. Also no need for a rental car.



I agree with that. Marriott does have some upscale resorts like the Ritz Carlton that are a good use of points. I wish MVC would expand the luxury options for using DPs. Overall, MVC does not have a great mix of luxury options right now or the cost using DPs is higher than paying cash.


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## pedro47 (Nov 10, 2018)

Marriott resorts have more upscale timeshare resorts IMHO.

Embassy Suites is the only hotel chain that offer free alcohol and light finger foods daily from 5 to 7pm during a hotel stay.  It is not really free because it is factor into your hotel bill stay.

Fix amenities should not be an extra charge cost to owners, exchangers or guests because these amenities  were built to enjoy by everyone staying at the resort.  I am reference fix items liked tennis & basketball courses, pickle ball, swimming  pools, games room & movie theater, putt putt golf, volleyball , ping pong tables and gas grills.

Timeshare and cruising are similar in some expects, example both share the one common goal. You are on vacation to relax with family or friends. Both offer free amenities to enjoy.

The one or the two major differences are on a cruises all meals and production shows are included with your cruise.  On a cruise you have the opportunity to visit many differences ports of call without you steering the vessel or getting lost. With a cruise there are no yearly maintenance fees.

The average timeshare maintenance fee is probably $1100.00 per week; plus club dues.
The average cruise cost for a seven night cruise with a balcony for two is probably $4500.00 dollars for two adults.

Disney Cruise are higher than most of the cruise lines right time IMHO.


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## Quimby4 (Nov 13, 2018)

$1435 at Marriott Dessert Spring Villas II, plus my $205 DC fee. Ya, I'm thinking of selling. 
Bought resale years ago and used it for great trades, but now that teens are pretty much adults not wanting to stay at 1 location for 7 nights. 
Plus in the hotel points game so this is expensive compared to all of the free nights I can get. 
Is Marriott buying back DSV II?


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## SeaDoc (Nov 13, 2018)

Quimby4 said:


> $1435 at Marriott Dessert Spring Villas II, plus my $205 DC fee. Ya, I'm thinking of selling.
> Bought resale years ago and used it for great trades, but now that teens are pretty much adults not wanting to stay at 1 location for 7 nights.
> Plus in the hotel points game so this is expensive compared to all of the free nights I can get.
> Is Marriott buying back DSV II?



Yes, Red season - but always ask, you never know...


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## LUVourMarriotts (Nov 14, 2018)

_[Post moved from 2019 MF's sticky thread --> SueDonJ]_



Seaport104 said:


> *Marriott's Aruba Surf Club - 2BR Gold Oceanside (same MF for platinum and gold weeks and view categories)*
> 
> 2019 Utilities $262.92
> 2019 Replacement Reserve $558.67
> ...



This is a 1% increase from 2018.  I love it!  I hope this is the beginning of several years like this.


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## TXTortoise (Nov 15, 2018)

While I love Hawaii, I do find it interesting(?) that MOC and Ko Olina both are averaging 4-5% increases, while Waiohai trends lower.

I know Waiohai is much smaller, but from a percentage standpoint I'm not sure why there is such a significant difference.  I haven't looked at the resort details and suppose people cost could be the big variable.

MOC - 4.85%
Ko Olina - 4.75%
Waiohai - 3%


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## TravelTime (Nov 15, 2018)

TXTortoise said:


> While I love Hawaii, I do find it interesting(?) that MOC and Ko Olina both are averaging 4-5% increases, while Waiohai trends lower.
> 
> I know Waiohai is much smaller, but from a percentage standpoint I'm not sure why there is such a significant difference.  I haven't looked at the resort details and suppose people cost could be the big variable.
> 
> ...



Could someone post the MFs for these resorts over the past 10 years so we can see the trend?


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## Fasttr (Nov 15, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Could someone post the MFs for these resorts over the past 10 years so we can see the trend?


Check out StevenTing's tracking here....  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...gh58HPTlEaQicc1TID2i80q1Yg/edit#gid=236961480

FYI.... you can always find this at www.vacationpointexchange.com (see top menu)


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## Steve Fatula (Nov 15, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Could someone post the MFs for these resorts over the past 10 years so we can see the trend?



I sent you a link via text.


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## Superchief (Nov 27, 2018)

Marriott Canyon Villas continues to be one of the worst managed resorts for budget constraint. Increase continue to be higher than most other resorts. In the past four years, my fees have increased 5.7, 7.3, 5.5, and 5.4%. I own 2BR Gold season and my cost per DC point has increased from .61 in 2014 to .80 this year. I purchased my week here prior to the points program and therefore didn't know how lowly valued a Gold week would be. I would sell this week except I would then lose my Chairman status. Most of the increases have been in human resource and activities related expenses.


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## jpc763 (Nov 28, 2018)

I am a weeks owner with all of my properties enrolled in DC.  I just did a calculation on the maintenance fee cost per DC point and here is what I have found:

Imperial Palms - $0.70
Shadow Ridge - $0.67
Ko Olina - $0.58

What this tells me (if I am correct) that I should cash in Ko Olina before either of the other two and trade the other two over Ko Olina.


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## csalter2 (Nov 29, 2018)

jpc763 said:


> I am a weeks owner with all of my properties enrolled in DC.  I just did a calculation on the maintenance fee cost per DC point and here is what I have found:
> 
> Imperial Palms - $0.70
> Shadow Ridge - $0.67
> ...



Your cost per point is lower at Ko Olina because you significantly more points than you do for the others. However, I’m not understanding what you mean by cashing in Ko Olina and trading the other two overKo Olina. Can you please explain for me.


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## VacationForever (Nov 29, 2018)

jpc763 said:


> I am a weeks owner with all of my properties enrolled in DC.  I just did a calculation on the maintenance fee cost per DC point and here is what I have found:
> 
> Imperial Palms - $0.70
> Shadow Ridge - $0.67
> ...



Smilarly I do not understand your last statement.  Can I assume that your Imperial Palms and Shadow Ridge are not prime season weeks?


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## Fasttr (Nov 29, 2018)

csalter2 said:


> However, I’m not understanding what you mean by cashing in Ko Olina and trading the other two overKo Olina. Can you please explain for me.





VacationForever said:


> Smilarly I do not understand your last statement.


Not to put words in @jpc763's mouth, but I took the comment to mean that Ko'Olina is their most efficient DC point generator, so for the MF's spent vs the DC points it generates, if they were going to convert one of their weeks to DC points in any given year, they would be better off electing Ko'Olina vs the other two.

Looking only at that factor, they are probably right, but there are other factors to consider such as trading power of each week in II, etc. when looking at which week is best for what usage.


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## Superchief (Nov 29, 2018)

csalter2 said:


> Your cost per point is lower at Ko Olina because you significantly more points than you do for the others. However, I’m not understanding what you mean by cashing in Ko Olina and trading the other two overKo Olina. Can you please explain for me.


I think jpc means that Ko Olina is better for converting to DC points, while the other two are better to reserve the week and exchange (or occupy). Another factor to consider is what would be where you want to vacation. If you plan to use your home resort, the redemption points may be more or less than the cost for a specific week.


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## jpc763 (Nov 29, 2018)

csalter2 said:


> Your cost per point is lower at Ko Olina because you significantly more points than you do for the others. However, I’m not understanding what you mean by cashing in Ko Olina and trading the other two overKo Olina. Can you please explain for me.


Fasttr and Superchief are correct.  If I want DC points, the best option is to cash in Ko Olina.



VacationForever said:


> Smilarly I do not understand your last statement.  Can I assume that your Imperial Palms and Shadow Ridge are not prime season weeks?


Imperial Palms is the "Special Season" - the highest season.  Shadow Ridge is Gold Season so not the highest season.



Fasttr said:


> Not to put words in @jpc763's mouth, but I took the comment to mean that Ko'Olina is their most efficient DC point generator, so for the MF's spent vs the DC points it generates, if they were going to convert one of their weeks to DC points in any given year, they would be better off electing Ko'Olina vs the other two.
> 
> Looking only at that factor, they are probably right, but there are other factors to consider such as trading power of each week in II, etc. when looking at which week is best for what usage.


Well put.  Thanks!



Superchief said:


> I think jpc means that Ko Olina is better for converting to DC points, while the other two are better to reserve the week and exchange (or occupy). Another factor to consider is what would be where you want to vacation. If you plan to use your home resort, the redemption points may be more or less than the cost for a specific week.



In general, I have never traded Ko Olina and have almost always traded Imperial Palms.  I have been very successful trading Imperial Palms, I believe because it is a 3BR.  The points generated does not get us a week anywhere really.  Same goes for Shadow Ridge.  It trades decently and does not really give us enough points to go any of the places we like.

So in a given year, if we decide not to go to Ko Olina, we will probably convert to DC points and not exchange.  If we decide not to go to Imperial Palms or Shadow Ridge, we will exchange and not convert to points.


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## VacationForever (Nov 29, 2018)

I look at my weeks a little differently, I am already paying for MFs for all of them so points/mf $ is immaterial to me.  If I want to divide up exchanging and electing for DC points, I would convert the ones that generate the most DC points and use the ones that generate the least DC points to exchange in II.


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## icydog (Dec 1, 2018)

_[Moved from 2019 MF's sticky thread --> SueDonJ]_

By the way, when are maintenance fees due (a) for weeks and for (b) destination points? Thanks.

[ETA] Never mind. I found the dates on my invoices. I was surprised to find out that my DC points were due by 11/30/2018 (I will pay them today, ugh)  and that my weeks all have different due dates in January 2019.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 26, 2018)

I've updated the first post in the 2019 Maintenance Fees sticky thread. With most of us making annual payments during this next month, please consider scrolling through the list in that first post and, if it hasn't been reported already, posting the details of your owned Week(s). These annual threads are such a helpful resource and your participation is much appreciated.


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