# "DC Trust and Legacy/Exchange Points are the same."



## SueDonJ (Jul 4, 2013)

This topic is threatening to take over every thread here!  Let's help ourselves by maintaining this one as an ongoing discussion with the latest info/speculation, and refer/link to it in other threads instead of taking them off track.

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Various Marriott reps and execs have been saying some version of, "they're the same thing," since the Destination Club was introduced back in June, 2010.  They also say things like, "purchasing Trust Points will 'morph' or 'supercharge' the Points you get from your enrolled Weeks into Trust Points," or, "you'll be able to combine the two types of Points to access any inventory," etc.  It's important to note that these statements aren't completely correct.  But, they're not completely incorrect either!  It shouldn't come as a surprise that Marriott puts the dichotomy in its best possible light when you consider that their objective is to sell, literally and figuratively, the DC Points Product.  Our objective isn't the same - we simply want to know how DC Points work so we can get the best usage value.

There are terms and conditions in the DC governing documents that apply only to Trust Points, others only to Exchange Points, and others still to both types of Points.  These account for variances that will exist until/unless the docs are amended such that there aren't any specific-application t&c's, and they're the reason for the technical v. functional differences between Trust and Legacy Points.

Trust and Legacy Points have the same usage value.  In other words, the costs for any intervals in the Points Chart or for any DC Collections offers are the same regardless of which type of Points you'll be using.  That's how it can be said that, "they're the same."  But the difference between them is in which "bucket" the certain intervals are located at the time of a request.  Trust Points have direct access to any available intervals that have been conveyed to the Trust as well as any intervals that are made available through the DC Exchange Company (from a number of different sources.)  Legacy Points have direct access to only the intervals that are made available through the Exchange Company.

It's obvious that since the DC inception Marriott has tweaked its inventory management such that a larger number of Trust intervals are now being deposited to the EC in advance of check-in dates, and, that some intervals can be deposited to the EC on an immediate basis by a VOA when a particular request is made.  TUGgers are reporting what appears to be a fairly high level of satisfaction with reservation requests through the EC.  But as evidenced by reports to TUG from Owners/Members trying to use a combination of Trust and Legacy Points for a single interval, all available inventory is NOT simply parked in the Exchange Company to satisfy all requests.  If it were, then those TUGgers would not have been told as they were by VOA's that, "what you're requesting is only available with Trust Points."  The reason, as speculated by many TUGgers, is that Marriott must retain some intervals in the Trust "bucket" to be able to satisfy anticipated requests from pure Trust Members.  (Think of it as being similar to the Weeks system in which Marriott cannot access any Weeks which must be held back - according to those t&c's - for Weeks Owners' usage.)

So, combining the two types of Points for a single reservation comes down in the simplest form to a technical v. functional issue - the interval costs the same amount of DC Points regardless of the type of Points, but availability will be driven by the inventory "buckets" until/unless there aren't any distinctions between Trust and Legacy Points.

As far as the "supercharge" claim, I think it's possible that the VOA's have been instructed to perform immediate deposits of certain Trust intervals to the EC when they're requested by Owners with a combination of Trust and Legacy Points, but not when requested by Owners of only Legacy Points.  If this is what's happening then it certainly can be played up as a selling feature by Marriott reps/execs, but perhaps their terminology needs some tweaking because it's obvious from the t&c's that Legacy Points cannot be legally converted to Trust Points.

**********
Obviously this doesn't get into ALL the minute details of inventory management but it should be a good start.  Please, feel free to add your own experiences, speculation, and disagreement to this thread.  The more the merrier.


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## lizap (Jul 4, 2013)

I am so glad you started a separate thread; this is a very important issue.  Marriott is still contending there is no difference.  Only time will tell.  I'm not buying this way unless I have something in writing from Marriott.


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## ajlm33 (Jul 4, 2013)

I was told yesterday at a presentation at the Aruba Surf Club that they were the same. I said "really?" and he again repeated that trust points and legacy points were equal. Only time will tell, I guess...


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## FractionalTraveler (Jul 4, 2013)

I have executed over 20 DC reservations since the program was launched.

I own Legacy and Trust points.  The way the system has allowed me to use these points has indicated to me that the points are being treated the same and are being combined when needed to satisfy my reservation.

I have never run across any searches or reservation transactions that has limited me to using only bucket or the other.  The system currently lets me decide how I want the points applied from either enrolled legacy points or newer trust points.  

I haven't observed any difference or limitation to date.

FT


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## GregT (Jul 4, 2013)

Sue,

It is interesting -- and I believe that Marriott _wants_ us to believe that points are points -- but I believe they are different.

I also think, for the most part, that Marriott does a good job (today) at combining the two buckets, to maintain the functionality that points are points.

Successful example:  I booked a 3BR OF at Kauai Lagoons exactly 13 months out -- that can only come from the Trust.  And I used legacy points.

Failure example:  I knew an individual week was in the Trust -- but it did not appear to me 13 months out -- I watched carefully for it (for this very reason), and have done this several times (figuring an isolated incident could be explained, but not the pattern).

I don't believe the passage of time has cured this older example, as we also have a recent example of a TUGger being told that a reservation was only available to Trust Points.

So....I think, _for the most_, legacy points are as effective as Trust Points -- but I've seen (and I believe) that they can, on occasion, are treated differently.

Best,

Greg


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## dougp26364 (Jul 4, 2013)

From a legal standpoint I'm sure they're not the same. From the practicle standpoint of owners using points, I'm sure they are the same.

All that matters is one thing. Can owners get the reservations they want in a seemless system utilizing either trust point, legacy points or a combination of both? IMHO, the answer to that question is yes, owners can use points seamlessly at this time. 

I'm at a point I really don't care what the legal documents say. All I care about is getting the reservations and/or exchanges I'm after. I've been able to do that so far in the weeks system, the points system and reserving vacations at my home resort.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 5, 2013)

dougp26364 said:


> From a legal standpoint I'm sure they're not the same. From the practicle standpoint of owners using points, I'm sure they are the same.
> 
> All that matters is one thing. Can owners get the reservations they want in a seemless system utilizing either trust point, legacy points or a combination of both? IMHO, the answer to that question is yes, owners can use points seamlessly at this time.
> 
> I'm at a point I really don't care what the legal documents say. All I care about is getting the reservations and/or exchanges I'm after. I've been able to do that so far in the weeks system, the points system and reserving vacations at my home resort.



This is basically what it all comes down to. It seems that some have had trouble making certain reservations, but for the most part many are quite please with their ability to reserve with points.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 5, 2013)

dougp26364 said:


> . . . All that matters is one thing. Can owners get the reservations they want in a seemless system utilizing either trust point, legacy points or a combination of both?  . . . All I care about is getting the reservations and/or exchanges I'm after. . . .



I did not always get what I wanted via the weeks system, but so far with DC, I have yet to fail getting what I wanted.  So, if the system is working, it is good.  If it had not been working, it would have been a bad system.  At this point, I would have to say that DC has been a success.


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## StevenTing (Jul 5, 2013)

I had one problem at the very beginning of the program. I got customer advocacy involved and it was resolved in two weeks time.  This was for a 13 day ocean front stay in the Lahaina Tower in Maui in 2011


--
Sent using Tapatalk


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## SMB1 (Jul 9, 2013)

*Denied Again.*



SMB1 said:


> I have both legacy and trust points.  Saw a summer 2014 OceanWatch week on my-vacationclub.com.  When I tried to book it it said I was going to have to borrow points from 2015.  Called a VOA who told me that that week was only available as a trust reservation.  Could not combine my 2014 exchange points with 2014 trust points to get it.



Again this morning I was denied a week at OceanWatch because it was Trust only inventory.  I asked the VOA why they could not deposit the week into the exchange pool and use my trust and exchange points to book it.  I told her this had been done for me in the past and that Marriott officials have been claiming recently that points are points and they work seamlessly together. She put me on hold to talk to a supervisor.   

According to the supervisor, it is up to the resort to decide if they want to designate some trust only reservations and that OceanWatch is one of those.


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## GregT (Jul 9, 2013)

SMB1 said:


> Again this morning I was denied a week at OceanWatch because it was Trust only inventory.  I asked the VOA why they could not deposit the week into the exchange pool and use my trust and exchange points to book it.  I told her this had been done for me in the past and that Marriott officials have been claiming recently that points are points and they work seamlessly together. She put me on hold to talk to a supervisor.
> 
> According to the supervisor, it is up to the resort to decide if they want to designate some trust only reservations and that OceanWatch is one of those.



Can you tell us the dates (and view category) that you were trying to reserve -- where weeks were available for Trust Point reservations, but not a hybrid reservation?


Thanks!


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## SueDonJ (Jul 9, 2013)

SMB1 said:


> Again this morning I was denied a week at OceanWatch because it was Trust only inventory.  I asked the VOA why they could not deposit the week into the exchange pool and use my trust and exchange points to book it.  I told her this had been done for me in the past and that Marriott officials have been claiming recently that points are points and they work seamlessly together. She put me on hold to talk to a supervisor.
> 
> According to the supervisor, it is up to the resort to decide if they want to designate some trust only reservations and that OceanWatch is one of those.



Interesting remark about it being up to the resorts.  Wonder if Marriott - as the system Manager - makes the decision for each resort or if it's the resort BOD or GM?  Certainly there haven't been any reports to TUG of owners being asked to vote on anything remotely related ...

Thanks for posting.  

_(Moderator Note:  Do you have any objection to your post and replies to it being moved to the "DC Trust and Legacy/Exchange Points are the same." thread?  It's your choice.)_


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## dioxide45 (Jul 9, 2013)

SMB1 said:


> Again this morning I was denied a week at OceanWatch because it was Trust only inventory.  I asked the VOA why they could not deposit the week into the exchange pool and use my trust and exchange points to book it.  I told her this had been done for me in the past and that Marriott officials have been claiming recently that points are points and they work seamlessly together. She put me on hold to talk to a supervisor.
> 
> According to the supervisor, it is up to the resort to decide if they want to designate some trust only reservations and that OceanWatch is one of those.



I am thinking you were being given a line. I could be wrong, but I simply don't see the resorts in any way being involved with the inventory management.


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## SMB1 (Jul 11, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> Interesting remark about it being up to the resorts.  Wonder if Marriott - as the system Manager - makes the decision for each resort or if it's the resort BOD or GM?  Certainly there haven't been any reports to TUG of owners being asked to vote on anything remotely related ...
> 
> Thanks for posting.
> 
> _(Moderator Note:  Do you have any objection to your post and replies to it being moved to the "DC Trust and Legacy/Exchange Points are the same." thread?  It's your choice.)_



No problem.

_Thank you!  SueDonJ_


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## SMB1 (Jul 11, 2013)

GregT said:


> Can you tell us the dates (and view category) that you were trying to reserve -- where weeks were available for Trust Point reservationsI'VE TRIED TO , but not a hybrid reservation?
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Each of the last 2 Tuesday mornings I've tried to book 7 nights at the 13 month mark.  So OceanWatch August 3rd view Ocean and August 9th Ocean front were only trust points.


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## Fasttr (Jul 11, 2013)

I think its related to a 13 month out reservation.  I too had the issue with a 13 month out attempt trying to use combined points, but have never had an issue with 12 months or less out.  And the 13 month out did say MVC TRUST in the reservation notes when I eventually only used trust points to get it, instead of MVC EXCHANGE  which all of the 12 months or less have said in the reservation notes.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 11, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> I think its related to a 13 month out reservation.  I too had the issue with a 13 month out attempt trying to use combined points, but have never had an issue with 12 months or less out.  And the 13 month out did say MVC TRUST in the reservation notes when I eventually only used trust points to get it, instead of MVC EXCHANGE  which all of the 12 months or less have said in the reservation notes.



Hmmmm.  Could it really be that simple, that Marriott is making everything available through the DC Exchange Company but not until the 12-mos mark?  It sure does seem to explain a whole lot of things ...


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## windje2000 (Jul 11, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> Hmmmm.  Could it really be that simple, that Marriott is making everything available through the DC Exchange Company but not until the 12-mos mark?  It sure does seem to explain a whole lot of things ...



That is very much like my suggestion in this earlier thread.

link


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## lizap (Jul 13, 2013)

I asked a Marriott rep to put in writing to me (a couple of weeks ago) that trust points and legacy points can be combined.  When he was trying to sell me a fixed week (convertible into legacy points)  along with DC points, he kept saying they were the same and could be combined.  There have been reports of people having trouble booking using both as they come from separate buckets.  He has yet to respond.  Very telling...


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## GregT (Jul 15, 2013)

All,

I had a lengthy conversation with a representative from Customer Advocacy today.  The purpose was to talk about the week 26 Unit 6206 that just disappeared into the Trust.  I was trying to figure out if this week can be booked via legacy points, or whether it would require Trust Points.   

I told him I was aware of some instances where a week wasn't available to legacy points, only for Trust Points (this has occurred both for me, and also for SMB recently).

He was insistent that a point was a point, and that the week I am interested in should be available to either the legacy point or the trust point user at the same time.   He indicated that some of what I described might be explained by the timing of inventory release.

He indicated that, for the Trust, just like for week reservations, only 50% of the underlying weeks are made available for Point reservations.  And the remaining 50% become available at 12 months out.  I had suspected that they were holding some back, but this was the first pseudo-confirmation.  

I thought this was an interesting comment -- I can't reconcile SMB's experience with this, but I can reconcile my own experience.   There are two Kauai Lagoon 3BR OFs in the Trust -- one loaded 13 months out (and I booked it with legacy points) and then no availability showed up until 12 months out -- when the second one loaded.  It is also possible that some of the 3BR units that I sighted 12 months out at MOC (but not 13 months out) were simply released at 12 months out.   I had assumed that because it was fixed week/single week, that it would have been available to a Trust Point owner between months 12-13, but he had indicated that was not the case.

He indicated it was to preserve fairness to all owners, to avoid too much being absorbed 13 months out.  This seemed at odds with the whole 20% premium thing to book 13 months out -- but maybe that's a rule that's gone by the wayside.

So...I am going to run some experiments in 2015 (I am out of 2014 parts) to see what I can try to decipher.  I would be happy to be able to book the 6206 week 26 with legacy points (and then count on room assignments to connect me).  

Best,

Greg


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## windje2000 (Jul 15, 2013)

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> I had a lengthy conversation with a representative from Customer Advocacy today.  The purpose was to talk about the week 26 Unit 6206 that just disappeared into the Trust.  I was trying to figure out if this week can be booked via legacy points, or whether it would require Trust Points.
> 
> ...



Most interesting - Did you get any insight into whether the inventory is made available by or thru  the DC Exchange Co. at 13 and 12 months out and therefore obtainable by both legacy and trust point owners?  (Which would explain the notations on the reservations noted in several posts by FT.)


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## GregT (Jul 15, 2013)

windje2000 said:


> Most interesting - Did you get any insight into whether the inventory is made available by or thru  the DC Exchange Co. at 13 and 12 months out and therefore obtainable by both legacy and trust point owners?  (Which would explain the notations on the reservations noted in several posts by FT.)



I didn't get any insight as to the mechanism used -- sorry about that! 

I just spoke with Maui Ocean Club's GM and room assignments manager to try to understand room priority (and they were very helpful).   She believed my chances were decent if I was an early time stamp and I requested that specific room.  She indicated that it was their preference to try and keep me in the same room.  Finally, she indicated it didn't matter whether I made the reservation with Trust Points or legacy points, because I asked if my odds increased if I made the reservation with Trust Points, or partial Trust Points.

Hmmm....... interesting.

Best,

Greg


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## GregT (Jul 19, 2013)

All,

A separate thread has included information on the nature of Trust versus Legacy points.

In summary, for the vast majority of point reservations, Legacy Points will function the same as Trust Points.

However, Marriott inventory control appears to designate certain weeks as requiring Trust Points to reserve from months 12-13.  These appear to be ultra-prime weeks that are scarce in the Trust.  The anecdotal information from VOAs is that at Month 12, the "Trust Only" weeks can be booked with legacy points.

Best,

Greg


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## thinze3 (Jul 19, 2013)

MVCI is coming to Houston in order to "explain" the questions that have been coming in about the DC Club.  It will be a 2 HR presentation with the first hour being about the system (with some Q&A), and the second hour only for those who want more detailed information, broken down into smaller groups.

I specifically asked about the 2 buckets.  The lady told me that all units had now been combined and that all points are now the same.  That is one of the topics on the agenda.  I reminded her that only last year the salespeople were saying just the opposite.  She was aware of that.

Anyway, I don't know if I'm going or not.  They are offering 20K points to come in and here them out.


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## jcjl1 (Jul 19, 2013)

*Coming to HTown?*

Haven't heard about it.  When is it and any idea what the criteria was for being invited?


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## thinze3 (Jul 19, 2013)

jcjl1 said:


> Haven't heard about it.  When is it and any idea what the criteria was for being invited?



Three days, August 8-10 at The Woodlands Marriott. there were 3 different times available on Saturday (08/10) alone.

I mentioned that I hadn't heard anything about it, and the lady told me that the invitations were "targeted".  I signed up for Aug 10th but have until Aug 3rd to cancel.


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## brigechols (Jul 19, 2013)

thinze3 said:


> MVCI is coming to Houston in order to "explain" the questions that have been coming in about the DC Club.  It will be a 2 HR presentation with the first hour being about the system (with some Q&A), and the second hour only for those who want more detailed information, broken down into smaller groups.
> 
> I specifically asked about the 2 buckets.  The lady told me that all units had now been combined and that all points are now the same.  That is one of the topics on the agenda.  I reminded her that only last year the salespeople were saying just the opposite.  She was aware of that.
> 
> Anyway, I don't know if I'm going or not.  They are offering 20K points to come in and here them out.



My invitation offered 20k points or $100. I'll pass.


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## jcjl1 (Jul 19, 2013)

thinze3 said:


> Three days, August 8-10 at The Woodlands Marriott. there were 3 different times available on Saturday (08/10) alone.
> 
> I mentioned that I hadn't heard anything about it, and the lady told me that the invitations were "targeted".  I signed up for Aug 10th but have until Aug 3rd to cancel.





brigechols said:


> My invitation offered 20k points or $100. I'll pass.



Thanks for your quick responses!  Guess they have me pegged as not going to buy Trust Points (which is correct)!


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## ggillen (Jul 21, 2013)

'MVCI is coming to Houston'.       Do you have any idea if MVCI will be coming to NYC?
The only time I can have questions answered is to go to a timeshare presentation.
It would be great to be able to talk to someone from the MVC Destinations Program,
face to face, rather than being restricted to talking on the phone to a Rep. Thanks


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## lizap (Jul 22, 2013)

*Why Isn't MVC Willing to Put in Writing That DC Points and Legacy Points are Same*

There has been much discussion on this forum about the problems of combining DC trust points and legacy points.  The problems center around the fact that they come from different 'buckets'; people have reported problems when trying to book a reservation that requires points from both.  I asked a MVC rep several weeks ago if this was a problem, and he replied that they were the same now and would not create any problems.  I asked him to put this in writing, and have not heard from him since then.  I am very interested in purchasing MVC, especially from MVC ( legacy week plus buying DC points), but cannot until this is cleared up.  I'm sure I can't be the only one in this boat.  Why doesn't MVC clear this up by putting a statement that the points can be combined without any problems on their website?

[_Note threads merged.  <--- SueDonJ_]


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## Fasttr (Jul 22, 2013)

I think the majority here have concluded that they are basically the same when using points from 12 months and less before reservation date, but in certain instances in the 13 month window, there are still differences.  If you plan to be booking primarily in the 13 month window, then it could prove to be problematic at times, but if most of your reservations would be made in the 12 month window, then I don't see it as an issue... IMO.  Depends if you plan to purchase enough points to be Premier or Premier+ where the 13 month window is a benefit to you.


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## lizap (Jul 22, 2013)

OK, then why don't they guarantee/put in writing there is no problem?  I think there are a number here that are still not convinced.



Fasttr said:


> I think the majority here have concluded that they are basically the same when using points from 12 months and less before reservation date, but in certain instances in the 13 month window, there are still differences.  If you plan to be booking primarily in the 13 month window, then it could prove to be problematic at times, but if most of your reservations would be made in the 12 month window, then I don't see it as an issue... IMO.  Depends if you plan to purchase enough points to be Premire or Premier+ where the 13 month window is a benefit to you.


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## Fasttr (Jul 22, 2013)

lizap said:


> OK, then why don't they guarantee/put in writing there is no problem?



I am not a Marriott or a VAC employee, so I would not know the answer to that.  I'm guessing the majority of the employees really don't know the nuances of the reservation system which is why nobody is willing to put it in writing for you.


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## lizap (Jul 22, 2013)

So they are trying to sell a product without knowing the nuances of the system.  Makes perfect sense. I think I will wait to purchase until they learn those nuances or until there are a substantial number of others who report positive results combining points.  



Fasttr said:


> I am not a Marriott or a VAC employee, so I would not know the answer to that.  I'm guessing the majority of the employees really don't know the nuances of the reservation system which is why nobody is willing to put it in writing for you.


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## Fasttr (Jul 22, 2013)

I will add that I am one who has experienced the issue in the 13 month window (I am not P or P+, I was using the 120% points to make sure I could get the unit).  That said, I have also used combined (Legacy and Trust)  points to book a couple of times in the 12 month window and did not have any issues whatsoever with those.


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## lizap (Jul 22, 2013)

I'm glad to hear that you didn't have a problem combining points in the 12 month window.  I'll put you down on the positive results list.




Fasttr said:


> I will add that I am one who has experienced the issue in the 13 month window (I am not P or P+, I was using the 120% points to make sure I could get the unit).  That said, I have also used combined (Legacy and Trust)  points to book a couple of times in the 12 month window and did not have any issues whatsoever with those.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 22, 2013)

lizap said:


> OK, then why don't they guarantee/put in writing there is no problem?  I think there are a number here that are still not convinced.



Because technically it's not true according to the definitions and stipulations contained in the governing documents.  DC Trust Members and DC Exchange Members are defined specifically in those docs with the main difference between them being how the Members' Points are acquired.  As well, the docs specify how intervals are acquired from different sources and then become available for reservations.

Even if Marriott somehow manages to integrate Trust and Exchange Points such that _every_ reservation comes from the same inventory pool and is available to all DC Members (which is happening now on a more frequent basis than at the DC rollout but still not 100% of the time,) there will still be a difference between the technical and functional aspects of the system.  I wouldn't expect that Marriott could publish an official statement saying Trust and Exchange Points are the same because that statement is effectively contrary to the governing documents; I'd expect an official statement like that only if/when the docs are amended.

For what it's worth, throughout the entire life cycle when Weeks were the only Marriott game in town there were many questions surrounding inventory machinations that Marriott didn't ever make fully transparent to MVCI Owners.  They just don't work that way.


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## puckmanfl (Jul 22, 2013)

good evening....

I have booked 3 bedroom OF at Kauai Lagoons (6/14-6/21 2014) at 13 months using legacy points only.  Booked RC Vail (ski season) at 13 months using Legacy points.

Pretty sure these units were Trust inventory...


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## lizap (Jul 22, 2013)

Why don't they just amend the governing documents?




SueDonJ said:


> Because technically it's not true according to the definitions and stipulations contained in the governing documents.  DC Trust Members and DC Exchange Members are defined specifically in those docs with the main difference between them being how the Members' Points are acquired.  As well, the docs specify how intervals are acquired from different sources and then become available for reservations.
> 
> Even if Marriott somehow manages to integrate Trust and Exchange Points such that _every_ reservation comes from the same inventory pool and is available to all DC Members (which is happening now on a more frequent basis than at the DC rollout but still not 100% of the time,) there will still be a difference between the technical and functional aspects of the system.  I wouldn't expect that Marriott could publish an official statement saying Trust and Exchange Points are the same because that statement is effectively contrary to the governing documents; I'd expect an official statement like that only if/when the docs are amended.
> 
> For what it's worth, throughout the entire life cycle when Weeks were the only Marriott game in town there were many questions surrounding inventory machinations that Marriott didn't ever make fully transparent to MVCI Owners.  They just don't work that way.


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## Fasttr (Jul 22, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> good evening....
> 
> I have booked 3 bedroom OF at Kauai Lagoons (6/14-6/21 2014) at 13 months using legacy points only.  Booked RC Vail (ski season) at 13 months using Legacy points.
> 
> Pretty sure these units were Trust inventory...



The question is not if they were Trust inventory, its whether that Trust inventory was placed into the Exchange as of the date you booked it.  I believe by definition it had to be or you would not have been able to book it.  Look at your Marriott reservation....if it said MVC EXCHANGE, it was inventory that had been placed into the Exchange, regardless of where it came from.  The point being that IMO, at times, there is inventory at the 13 month mark that still has not been placed into the Exchange.


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## lizap (Jul 22, 2013)

Did you use legacy points or a combination of DC and legacy points for RC Vail?




puckmanfl said:


> good evening....
> 
> I have booked 3 bedroom OF at Kauai Lagoons (6/14-6/21 2014) at 13 months using legacy points only.  Booked RC Vail (ski season) at 13 months using Legacy points.
> 
> Pretty sure these units were Trust inventory...


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## SueDonJ (Jul 22, 2013)

The other thing that occurs to me that we're not necessarily dealing with now but will happen eventually as more and more pure Trust Members are brought into the system, is the assumption that Trust Members have a similar guarantee to Trust-conveyed intervals that Weeks Owners have to intervals at their home resorts.

Marriott can't just dump intervals from the DC Exchange Company into the Trust so if the object is to make all intervals available to all DC Members, the only alternatives are to either keep everything completely separate, or, dump everthing into the Exchange Company.  But doing that, effectively making every interval available on an equal basis to Trust and Exchange Members, could eventually lead to Trust Members not being able to use their Points.  Not now, and maybe not even soon, but eventually when the program has matured and there are more pure Trust Members onboard, it's Marriott's ability to keep separate the various inventory pools which will safeguard those Trust Members' usage rights.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 22, 2013)

lizap said:


> Why don't they just amend the governing documents?



I was typing Post [#42] when you wrote this.


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## rpgriego (Jul 22, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> The question is not if they were Trust inventory, its whether that Trust inventory was placed into the Exchange as of the date you booked it.  I believe by definition it had to be or you would not have been able to book it.  Look at your Marriott reservation....if it said MVC EXCHANGE, it was inventory that had been placed into the Exchange, regardless of where it came from.  The point being that IMO, at times, there is inventory at the 13 month mark that still has not been placed into the Exchange.



This is the BEST post EVER on this blog, regarding this repeated subject! And four [well written] sentences finally made me understand. THANKS!


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## dioxide45 (Jul 22, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> The other thing that occurs to me that we're not necessarily dealing with now but will happen eventually as more and more pure Trust Members are brought into the system, is the assumption that Trust Members have a similar guarantee to Trust-conveyed intervals that Weeks Owners have to intervals at their home resorts.
> 
> Marriott can't just dump intervals from the DC Exchange Company into the Trust so if the object is to make all intervals available to all DC Members, the only alternatives are to either keep everything completely separate, or, dump everthing into the Exchange Company.  But doing that, effectively making every interval available on an equal basis to Trust and Exchange Members, could eventually lead to Trust Members not being able to use their Points.  Not now, and maybe not even soon, but eventually when the program has matured and there are more pure Trust Members onboard, it's Marriott's ability to keep separate the various inventory pools which will safeguard those Trust Members' usage rights.



This is the one reason that they will never amend the governing documents. As the DC program gets more mature they need the flexibility and the legal distinction will be necessary. As a legacy points owner, you will never own and have direct access to what the trust owners own. Trust owners will never have access to weeks inventory. As more inventory is added to the trust and more high point trust owners come along, they want the ability to hold back specific inventory for trust owners only.

I suspect as more and more points are sold and more and more inventory makes it in to the trust, getting reservations at 13 or even 12 months out of what is actual trust inventory will be harder.



Fasttr said:


> The question is not if they were Trust inventory, its whether that Trust inventory was placed into the Exchange as of the date you booked it.  I believe by definition it had to be or you would not have been able to book it.  Look at your Marriott reservation....if it said MVC EXCHANGE, it was inventory that had been placed into the Exchange, regardless of where it came from.  The point being that IMO, at times, there is inventory at the 13 month mark that still has not been placed into the Exchange.



I would suspect that this is what is happening. At resorts where there is a lot of trust inventory, MVCI has determined that it won't all be used by trust owners, so they deposit the inventory in to the MVCI Exchange Company very early. Kauai Lagoons is an example of this.

I also believe that reps have the ability to pull certain inventory from the trust and deposit it to the MVC Exchange Company in order to fill specific legacy reservation requests. Though all legacy points reservations will show "MVC Exchange" as in order to reserve it the inventory must pass through the Exchange Company.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 22, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> This is the one reason that they will never amend the governing documents. As the DC program gets more mature they need the flexibility and the legal distinction will be necessary. As a legacy points owner, you will never own and have direct access to what the trust owners own. Trust owners will never have access to weeks inventory. As more inventory is added to the trust and more high point trust owners come along, they want the ability to hold back specific inventory for trust owners only.
> 
> I suspect as more and more points are sold and more and more inventory makes it in to the trust, getting reservations at 13 or even 12 months out of what is actual trust inventory will be harder.
> 
> ...



Yep, I agree completely.


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## lizap (Jul 22, 2013)

Excellent explaination. Then they are NOT the same.  Thus, it is misleading for them to say they are; hence they will NEVER put this in writing.




dioxide45 said:


> This is the one reason that they will never amend the governing documents. As the DC program gets more mature they need the flexibility and the legal distinction will be necessary. As a legacy points owner, you will never own and have direct access to what the trust owners own. Trust owners will never have access to weeks inventory. As more inventory is added to the trust and more high point trust owners come along, they want the ability to hold back specific inventory for trust owners only.
> 
> I suspect as more and more points are sold and more and more inventory makes it in to the trust, getting reservations at 13 or even 12 months out of what is actual trust inventory will be harder.
> 
> ...


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## GregT (Jul 23, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> This is the one reason that they will never amend the governing documents. As the DC program gets more mature they need the flexibility and the legal distinction will be necessary. As a legacy points owner, you will never own and have direct access to what the trust owners own. Trust owners will never have access to weeks inventory. As more inventory is added to the trust and more high point trust owners come along, they want the ability to hold back specific inventory for trust owners only.
> 
> I suspect as more and more points are sold and more and more inventory makes it in to the trust, getting reservations at 13 or even 12 months out of what is actual trust inventory will be harder.
> 
> ...





lizap said:


> Excellent explaination. Then they are NOT the same.  Thus, it is misleading for them to say they are; hence they will NEVER put this in writing.



I agree -- this is a very succinct summary by Dioxide, and I also believe this is exactly what is happening.

Best,

Greg


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## thinze3 (Jul 23, 2013)

I guess I just don't see the complication.
Why cannot there be only one bucket? 

X trust points = X inventory.
X legacy points = X legacy weeks


Start with a bucket full of trust inventory.
Every time a legacy member deposits his week, he gets DC points and the week goes into the same bucket.

EXAMPLE:
1,000,000 DC points (trust points)
400 DC weeks in bucket (trust weeks) = (2800 nights)

After a Legacy deposit:
1,002,500 DC points 
401 DC weeks in bucket (2807 nights)

Anyone, at any time should be able to get any inventory from that one bucket, whether they own points from the trust or have received points from their deposit.


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## Fasttr (Jul 23, 2013)

thinze3 said:


> I guess I just don't see the complication.
> Why cannot there be only one bucket?
> 
> Anyone, at any time should be able to get any inventory from that one bucket, whether they own points from the trust or have received points from their deposit.



If life was that simple, what would we have to TUG about??

:hysterical:


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## Quilter (Jul 23, 2013)

lizap said:


> There has been much discussion on this forum about the problems of combining DC trust points and legacy points.  The problems center around the fact that they come from different 'buckets'; people have reported problems when trying to book a reservation that requires points from both.  I asked a MVC rep several weeks ago if this was a problem, and he replied that they were the same now and would not create any problems.  I asked him to put this in writing, and have not heard from him since then.  I am very interested in purchasing MVC, especially from MVC ( legacy week plus buying DC points), but cannot until this is cleared up.  I'm sure I can't be the only one in this boat.  Why doesn't MVC clear this up by putting a statement that the points can be combined without any problems on their website?
> 
> [_Note threads merged.  <--- SueDonJ_]



So far I haven't had any impact on the usage of my ownership that I can directly connect to reservations coming from a particular bucket.   To clarify, I have made just a few points reservations.  

I may be wrong but what I've gained from this thread is: 1) that currently the points are pretty much the same from the 12 month point, 2) sometimes they are the same from the 13 month point, 3) the governing documents hold the right to return to a division of points with the increase of more Trust owners put those demands on the system.   Am I right?   Did I miss anything?  

Your post shows a hesitation to get into the MVC system because of an impact made by a division of points you perceive will directly relate to your use.    I'd like to better understand the impact you perceive.  

Can you explain more specifically how you see the division of points causing you trouble with your possible ownership?


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## SueDonJ (Jul 23, 2013)

thinze3 said:


> I guess I just don't see the complication.
> Why cannot there be only one bucket?
> 
> X trust points = X inventory.
> ...



Think of the DC Trust as the "home resort" of DC Trust Members (those who have purchased Trust Points.)  Those owners have rights to directly access any intervals which have been conveyed to the Trust, while both Trust and Exchange (Legacy) owners (those who have enrolled Weeks and have converted them to Points) have an equal right to intervals which are obtained through the DC Exchange Company.

Right now in the DC program's infancy there is a huge disparity between how many intervals have been conveyed and the number of DC Trust Points which have been sold, so Marriott has a lot of leeway to mingle many Trust-conveyed intervals in the Exchange Company for use by both Trust and Exchange Members.  But when the time comes that enough DC Trust Points have been sold to correlate with a majority of the Weeks which have been conveyed to the Trust, Marriott won't have as much leeway to mingle inventory in the Exchange Company because they'll have to hold back Trust intervals in order to safeguard the Trust Members' usage rights.  What we don't know, I don't think, is how long a period it is that Marriott has to comply with that safeguard for Trust Members, or exactly how Marriott is able to manipulate inventory when a Trust Member reserves Exchange Company intervals. With Weeks we know that Marriott doesn't have a right to claim unreserved owned Weeks until some point around 75 days prior to check-in.  If/when we learn the terms of the safeguards for Trust intervals we'll have a better idea of how Marriott is able to mingle inventory.

So now to greatly simplify things based on your example (using figures pulled out of thin air here,) say the Trust consists of only 10 Maui Ocean Club 2BR OF Weeks which correlate to 20K DC Points (2,000 each.)  Now say there are 10 DC Trust Members who each own 2,000 Trust Points.  For some period of time it's assumed that those 10 Trust Members should have first rights to reserve those 10 specific conveyed Weeks.  But if Marriott makes those 10 intervals available through the DC Exchange Company immediately upon their Reservation Windows opening, then Exchange (Legacy) Members would be able to reserve them on an equal basis thus negating whatever first usage rights the DC Trust Members should have to Trust inventory.

Again, right now it's not a problem with so much excess inventory (meaning not correlated to sold Trust Points) in the Trust - Marriott is able to and has been mingling a large number of Trust intervals in the Exchange Company.  But eventually Marriott will have to be more strict about holding back Trust inventory for Trust Members' usage, depending on how much of a margin they manipulate between ongoing Trust conveyances and purchased Trust Points.


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## Fasttr (Jul 23, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> Think of the DC Trust as the "home resort" of DC Trust Members (those who have purchased Trust Points.)  Those owners have rights to directly access any intervals which have been conveyed to the Trust, while both Trust and Exchange (Legacy) owners (those who have enrolled Weeks and have converted them to Points) have an equal right to intervals which are obtained through the DC Exchange Company.
> 
> Right now in the DC program's infancy there is a huge disparity between how many intervals have been conveyed and the number of DC Trust Points which have been sold, so Marriott has a lot of leeway to mingle many Trust-conveyed intervals in the Exchange Company for use by both Trust and Exchange Members.  But when the time comes that enough DC Trust Points have been sold to correlate with a majority of the Weeks which have been conveyed to the Trust, Marriott won't have as much leeway to mingle inventory in the Exchange Company because they'll have to hold back Trust intervals in order to safeguard the Trust Members' usage rights.  What we don't know, I don't think, is how long a period it is that Marriott has to comply with that safeguard for Trust Members, or exactly how Marriott is able to manipulate inventory when a Trust Member reserves Exchange Company intervals. With Weeks we know that Marriott doesn't have a right to claim unreserved owned Weeks until some point around 75 days prior to check-in.  If/when we learn the terms of the safeguards for Trust intervals we'll have a better idea of how Marriott is able to mingle inventory.
> 
> ...



Well said, but what really makes the whole thing work for everybody (and I am a pure Trust Point only owner, saying this) is the Enrolled weeks that the Legacy Point owners have tossed into the Exchange.  Without those, a lot of what is purely in the Trust is unsold weeks in shoulder seasons, which is not a big draw (I realize there are some prime ressies in there too).  Thankfully the Enrolled owners saw value in the less than full week reservations and other features of the plan as again, IMO, their deposits into the Exchange is what really is making the transition a success, is what is making it work for pure Trust point owners, and not to mention is making stockholders in the VAC happy people right now (at least on paper )

I for one Trust only owner, would be perfectly fine to have everything in one bucket!!  You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 23, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> Well said, but what really makes the whole thing work for everybody (and I am a pure Trust Point only owner, saying this) is the Enrolled weeks that the Legacy Point owners have tossed into the Exchange.  Without those, a lot of what is purely in the trust is unsold weeks in shoulder seasons, which is not a big draw (I realize there are some prime ressies in there too).  Thankfully the Enrolled owners saw value in the less than full week reservations and other features of the plan as again, IMO, their deposits into the Exchange is what really is making the transition a success, is what is making it work for pure Trust point owners, and not to mention is making stockholders in the VAC happy people right now (at least on paper )
> 
> I for one Trust only owner, would be perfectly fine to have everything in one bucket!!  You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.



I think most of us would like the simplicity of a one-bucket system, no doubt!  But it took Marriott years to develop a Points system and I don't think they would have been granted approval from the states' agencies for a single-bucket integration of Points and existing Weeks, not with the timeshare laws being what they are.  It appears Marriott's choices were either a Points system completely separate from the existing Weeks system, or what's in place now, a Points system in which the existing Weeks system can be integrated but only with a whole lot of inventory manipulation and machination that makes everything complicated.


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## Fasttr (Jul 23, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> I think most of us would like the simplicity of a one-bucket system, no doubt!  But it took Marriott years to develop a Points system and I don't think they would have been granted approval from the states' agencies for a single-bucket integration of Points and existing Weeks, not with the timeshare laws being what they are.  It appears Marriott's choices were either a Points system completely separate from the existing Weeks system, or what's in place now, a Points system in which the existing Weeks system can be integrated but only with a whole lot of inventory manipulation and machination that makes everything complicated.



For most of us in the DC (Trust and Legacy), however maddening it seems at times to figure it all out, it does seem to work nicely for most reservations.  I guess we have to give them that!!!


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## SueDonJ (Jul 23, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> For most of us in the DC (Trust and Legacy), however maddening it seems at times to figure it all out, it does seem to work nicely for most reservations.  I guess we have to give them that!!!



I completely agree.  Marriott's new system isn't perfect but it's pretty darn good, and I'm one happy camper that they've managed to implement something that marries their extensive resort/hotel network with the flexibility inherent in a points product.  And TUG's savvy Marriott owners have been such a valuable resource for figuring all the ins and outs.


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## thinze3 (Jul 23, 2013)

Marriott doesn't need to hold back anything for trust owners, now or in the future.  There should be a total number units available that matches the total number of trust points owned, whether it's by Marriott or individuals.  There will always be management issues, i.e. "All we have remaining are 4 nights here or 3 nights there."  This happens in many businesses.  

If a Legacy owner waits to long to reserve he would be in the same boat as the trust points owner doing the same. Marriott has the skim from Legacy owners and unused annual points from all owners to help with that.

And for that matter, if you offer trust members first right to reserve trust inventory, then shouldn't it work the same for Legacy owners, who ultimately are what make this whole system possible? On that premise shouldn't I be able to fork over my Waiohai to gain access to your Surfwatch before a trust member does? It is the Legacy members who broaden the scope of of the trust ownership immensely.

My answer to this is "NO".  There should be one bucket for all.


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## Fasttr (Jul 23, 2013)

thinze3 said:


> Marriott doesn't need to hold back anything for trust owners, now or in the future.  There should be a total number units available that matches the total number of trust points owned, whether it's by Marriott or individuals.  There will always be management issues, i.e. "All we have remaining are 4 nights here or 3 nights there."  This happens in many businesses.
> 
> If a Legacy owner waits to long to reserve he would be in the same boat as the trust points owner doing the same. Marriott has the skim from Legacy owners and unused annual points from all owners to help with that.
> 
> ...



I think we all need to purchase points in the Thinze3 Vacation Club!!


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## SueDonJ (Jul 23, 2013)

thinze3 said:


> *Marriott doesn't need to hold back anything for trust owners, now or in the future.*  There should be a total number units available that matches the total number of trust points owned, whether it's by Marriott or individuals.  There will always be management issues, i.e. "All we have remaining are 4 nights here or 3 nights there."  This happens in many businesses.
> 
> If a Legacy owner waits to long to reserve he would be in the same boat as the trust points owner doing the same. Marriott has the skim from Legacy owners and unused annual points from all owners to help with that.
> 
> ...



About the first sentence that I bolded - isn't that almost the same thing as saying for all these years during which Marriott timeshares have been in existence, "Marriott doesn't need to hold back any Weeks inventory for Weeks Owners, now or in the future?"  Of course they've had to, and now for Trust Members, too!  Owners/Members have to have first rights to what they own - that's the main premise of every timeshare law ever enacted!  That's why one of the governing docs of the MVC Destination Club must be the Disclosure Guide, that stipulates which intervals have been conveyed to the Trust up to and at the time of enrollment/purchase.

As much as it would make things simpler for us if there weren't all these buckets and rules, I really don't think that any of us want Marriott to have free noncompliant reign to manipulate inventory in whatever ways are easiest for us.  IMO wanting that's a classic case of "be careful what you wish for," because there would be nothing to stop Marriott from taking full advantage to further their own ends and not ours!


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## thinze3 (Jul 23, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> .... and I'm one happy camper ....



I'll bet you are.  Most weeks owners that joined the DC weren't as lucky as you.  Not many had weeks worth 5-6000 points each with MF's at $.20 per point. Darn the luck.


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## thinze3 (Jul 23, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> About the first sentence that I bolded - isn't that almost the same thing as saying for all these years during which Marriott timeshares have been in existence, "Marriott doesn't need to hold back any Weeks inventory for Weeks Owners, now or in the future?"  Of course they've had to, and now for Trust Members, too!  Owners/Members have to have first rights to what they own - that's the main premise of every timeshare law ever enacted!  That's why one of the governing docs of the MVC Destination Club must be the Disclosure Guide, that stipulates which intervals have been conveyed to the Trust up to and at the time of enrollment/purchase.
> 
> As much as it would make things simpler for us if there weren't all these buckets and rules, I really don't think that any of us want Marriott to have free noncompliant reign to manipulate inventory in whatever ways are easiest for us.  IMO wanting that's a classic case of "be careful what you wish for," because there would be nothing to stop Marriott from taking full advantage to further their own ends and not ours!





You have to read past the first sentence to understand the simplicity.  Of course you have to have the same number of weeks available as is owned in the trust AND deposited from Legacy owners, nothing more and nothing less.  You have one unit you sell 52 weeks - or 52 X 2500 points. There is no inventory to hold back.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 23, 2013)

thinze3 said:


> You have to read past the first sentence to understand the simplicity.  Of course you have to have the same number of weeks available as is owned in the trust AND deposited from Legacy owners, nothing more and nothing less.  You have one unit you sell 52 weeks - or 52 X 2500 points. There is no inventory to hold back.



But Trust Members' ownership consists of interests in a real estate Trust, which Trust consists of specific inventory.  A separate component of the MVC Destination Club is the Affiliate Agreement between the Trust and the DC Exchange Company, which also gives Trust Members access to the EC inventory.  But according to the set-up as mandated by the governing docs, the affiliate agreement can be severed.  So what happens upon such a severance if the Trust inventory isn't kept separate from the EC inventory?

That's why I think that Marriott is doing a good job with mingling inventory.  Because despite being constrained by the Trust Members' ownership rights they're still managing to make it appear almost seamless for both Trust and Exchange Members to successfully reserve almost all intervals.


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## lizap (Jul 23, 2013)

This is one of the best comments I've seen on this thread. 




thinze3 said:


> I guess I just don't see the complication.
> Why cannot there be only one bucket?
> 
> X trust points = X inventory.
> ...


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## gblotter (Aug 12, 2013)

We just attended a sales presentation on Friday at Timber Lodge.

The salesman insisted that owning trust points would "supercharge" our reservation power.  He admitted that MVW would be angry at him for saying that.  He claimed that he can easily demonstrate online how owning trust points will reveal reservations that do not show up with just legacy points.

I responded that I have always been able to get the reservations I want using legacy points.

I also mentioned that I was disappointed with the "bottom of the barrel" room assignments given to DC points reservations.  He was completely uninterested in having a discussion on that topic.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 12, 2013)

gblotter said:


> We just attended a sales presentation on Friday at Timber Lodge.
> 
> The salesman insisted that owning trust points would "supercharge" our reservation power.  He admitted that MVW would be angry at him for saying that.  He claimed that he can easily demonstrate online how owning trust points will reveal reservations that do not show up with just legacy points.



So did you ask him to demonstrate?


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## Fasttr (Aug 12, 2013)

gblotter said:


> We just attended a sales presentation on Friday at Timber Lodge.
> 
> The salesman insisted that owning trust points would "supercharge" our reservation power.  He admitted that MVW would be angry at him for saying that.  He claimed that he can easily demonstrate online how owning trust points will reveal reservations that do not show up with just legacy points.



From what GregT has proven with multiple tests (and a few others of us have experienced on occasion where a reservation at 13 months could only be gotten with Trust points) the sales geek's claim that he could show you is technically correct....he probably could show you.  From there he is trying to play a Jedi mind trick on you, hoping you will think that by owning *some* Trust points, all of your points (Legacy and Trust) will presto/chango have Trust point power.  IMO, it doesn't work that way (as I have tried to use Legacy and Trust points to book a Trust only room and it didn't work).  So the only points that would be able to book those rare instances that you can only use Trust points.... is Trust Points.  So if you have 3000 Legacy points and 1500 Trust points, unless that Trust only ressie can be booked for your 1500 Trust points, you are still not going to get it.  Again....IMO.


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## GregT (Aug 12, 2013)

Fasttr said:


> From what GregT has proven with multiple tests (and a few others of us have experienced on occasion where a reservation at 13 months could only be gotten with Trust points) the sales geek's claim that he could show you is technically correct....he probably could show you.  From there he is trying to play a Jedi mind trick on you, hoping you will think that by owning *some* Trust points, all of your points (Legacy and Trust) will presto/chango have Trust point power.  IMO, it doesn't work that way (as I have tried to use Legacy and Trust points to book a Trust only room and it didn't work).  So the only points that would be able to book those rare instances that you can only use Trust points.... is Trust Points.  So if you have 3000 Legacy points and 1500 Trust points, unless that Trust only ressie can be booked for your 1500 Trust points, you are still not going to get it.  Again....IMO.




I agree completely with Fasttr's post -- I have no doubt the sales rep could show space that requires Trust Points, but booking it with Legacy Points is a different matter.   

I do not believe Trust Points will supercharge your Legacy Points (and was told this also at Timber Lodge).   It is a Jedi mind trick.  These are not the droids you are looking for.  I do believe Trust Points (in quantity) can be superior to Legacy Points for a few specific reservations, but Trust Points as an add-on to Legacy Points have not demonstrated any preferential access for confirming reservations.  

I would be very interested if we could find examples of how to make that happen.

Best,

Greg


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## gblotter (Aug 12, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> So did you ask him to demonstrate?


No.

My desire for an early exit was stronger than my curiosity to see the demonstration.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 12, 2013)

gblotter said:


> No.
> 
> My desire for an early exit was stronger than my curiosity to see the demonstration.



I understand, I would do the same thing.


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