# Marriott System & internal exchange



## DMSTWO (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm a Hyatt owner and a longtime TUG reader.  When first entering the TS market I did considerable research and narrowed my search to Starwood, Marriot and Hyatt.  In the end I chose Hyatt because Satrwood seems to have little concern for owners, and at the time Marriott internal exchanges weren't available without going through II.

I am considering picking up another week or two and had read somewhere that Marriott was making changes to their system to bring it more inline with the other Hotel Based TS systems.  I thought I should check and see what the current status is.  

I tried to do a quick review here on the TUG Marriott forum, but you guys are so active, and post so often, that I haven't been sucessful finding anything that provides an overview of the current Marriott exchange system.  Can someone help point me in the right direction?


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## LUVourMarriotts (Jan 2, 2010)

Here is the most recent thread I could find (July-August).  http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103138


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## m61376 (Jan 3, 2010)

Currently ALL exchanges for either other Marriotts or other resorts go through II. As posted above, it is rumored that an internal exchange system will be forthcoming, but first it was supposed to be summer of '09, then the end of the year, now mid year 2010. To save you a lot of reading- the proposed system, if implemented, has not been fully outlined. It will likely be a points based system  (either for exchanges or, if you opt in, for overall usage- again, not clarified), people will likely have to buy in at some unknown cost, resale owners will likely be allowed to buy in but the cost is unknown (the thread has a lot of discussion about this) and it may (or may not) appeal to a lot of current owners who may (or may not) continue to trade in II because they like the weeks based system and like the ability for the trade-ups that a point based system may eliminate.

The bottom line is no one really knows what the true system- if there is a new system- will be when (and if) one is released.


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## mpizza (Jan 3, 2010)

I attended an update last week.  For what its worth, the Marriott rep said that the internal trading system for Marriott owners was on hold.  Apparently internal trading within the Ritz Carlton product is turning out to be more expensive and more complicated to manage than anticipated.  

She seemed to be more knowledgable than most sales people, she even directed a guest to a resale (thru Marriott) week in HH so they could get free golf for their maintenance fee and take advantage of the 15% anniversary discount.  I didn't realize that the anniversary discount was available for reacquired weeks.  

She also advised that purchasing a low-season week and turning 
it in for points isn't worth it unless you accumulate enough from other sources for a points package.  I wonder if she reads TUG.

Maria


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## DMSTWO (Jan 3, 2010)

Thanks to everyone for their input. I understand that basically this is still a shadow in the mist. 

I read (should I say skimmed) through much of the thread LuvourMarriotts posted.  I found it interesting that very few people on Tug every really talk about the Hyatt system.  I suspect that is because most Hyatt owners tend to be pleased with their resorts and HVC so there isn't a lot of whining.

The Hyatt model is a very good one with regard to internal and external exchange.  It would be great if Marriott adopted it in some fashion. 

Hyatt entered the game late as the last of the big four (Marriott, Starwood, Hilton, Hyatt).  What they did was prove to be a good market follower.  They appear to have blended the best of many of their competitors systems.

The Hyatt system basically is:

1)  Typically you have fixed weeks at your home resort (a few resorts have some floating weeks).
2)   But each unit also has a points value assigned for internal trading and use at II.  The points are unit size/type and season specific and actually mimic the exact point value that  II assigns to the trade.  For example a Platinum 2 Bdr lock-off is assigned 2000 points.
3) You can borrow additional points from a future year provided you pay your MFs in advance to cover that future year.  
4)   All internal trading is done through Hyatt on the points basis with no bias to which resort you own.  The units are deposited into the exchange pool and are issued on a first come first reserve basis.  The exchanges are a one for one points match which means an owner at the least desirable resort has an equal chance to exchange into the best resort as everyone else in the system provided they have the points available.  Trading is not week for week, but point for point and you don't need to use all your points for any given trade.  If you have 2000 points and want to trade into another Hyatt 1 bdr at Key West Platinum Season you would use 1320 points.  The remaining 680 points could be used for other internal trading or deposited with II. 
5)   Hyatt allows part week reservations and part week trades.  Same points rules apply as in "4" above.
6)   Hyatt maintains a "Wait List" so you can request a trade to a specific resort at a specific time and if a unit becomes available the reservation is offer to those on the waitlist in the order in which they appear on the list.
7)   If you chose to exchange through II the trading power becomes more affected by resort desirability, demand and season as would be the case for any TS deposited.
8)    An advantage to other Hyatt owners is that if you chose to transfer your points to the II system, you are awarded the II points immediately, but Hyatt holds your unit in the internal exchange bank for a while (I don't remember how long maybe 30 days) to allow other Hyatt internal exchangers to trade for the week before it moves to II.
9)   One drawback to the system is that because the internal exchange program exists Hyatt placed a restriction on II exchanges in that once you transfer points out to II they can't be used to trade back into Hyatt.

Each year you receive the rights to reserve you fixed week and unit (+12 to +6 months out) trade within the system (+12 to +0 months out) transfer points to II (+12 to +4 months out) and use the II points for up to two years after your fixed week (+12 to -24 months).  Also is you failed to do any of the above you can use internal points to trade within Hyatt for up to six months after your fixed week (0 to -6 months) but reservations are restricted to units available within 60 days of the day you make the reservation.


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## dougp26364 (Jan 3, 2010)

mpizza said:


> I attended an update last week.  For what its worth, the Marriott rep said that the internal trading system for Marriott owners was on hold.



IMHO, that's a good thing. Having been with Marriott since 2001 I've found the internal exchange preference for Marriott to Marriott exchanges works out just fine for us. A points based reservation system has some definate advantages but, we've learned how to manipulate the weeks exchange system well enough that we get what we consider great value out of it as it is now.


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## m61376 (Jan 3, 2010)

DMSTWO- While I agree that, from what I know, the Hyatt system runs great, I think there are a few issues that Marriott would have with adopting a similar system:

-Marriott has many more resorts, so the complexity may or may not make it an untenable system

-I think the real issue is that Marriott wouldn't be starting from scratch. You are right in that, in any points system, a point needs to be a point, regardless of which resort it was credited for. The issue is that there are many happy Platinum owners across a broad range of resorts that suddenly would likely see a very different point credit, such that a Platinum week, for example, at one of the Orlando resorts may only receive enough points to trade into either an off season week or a smaller unit at one of the more demand locations. Similarly for owners of different seasons/resorts, who heretofore enjoyed great trades; likely there would be many "winners" and many "losers" in the new system, which would likely lead to unhappy owners.

I think one of the big issues is assigning point values after the fact, and the potential that 2 BR owners at one locale will have to pool points perhaps from 2 weeks or perhaps years of ownership to get a 2BR at one of the more premium locations.

Maria- thanks for the update. I had actually suspected that the Asia-Pacific points program was a trial run, but it makes sense that they would be looking at how the Ritz internal trading progressed before making such a monumental overhaul. Sometimes, if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it- changing a functional system which, although it has its glitches, has proved to be a successful business model is fraught with danger, and I am very glad Marriott is being very careful.

Any news about the progress on the Cancun property?


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## jancurious (Jan 4, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Any news about the progress on the Cancun property?



I was in Cancun in Dec 2008 & again in Dec 2009.  I walked by the site of the Marriott both times & it looked as if there has been no progress.  There was still a few grading machines on the site, but I couldn't see any progress between the two years.  

Jan


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## mpizza (Jan 4, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Any news about the progress on the Cancun property?



No news specific to Cancun, only that Marriott halted new projects until the economy improved.

Maria


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## m61376 (Jan 4, 2010)

Thanks. Last I had heard was that they were supposedly going ahead with Cancun anyway and that would coincide with the roll out of the new program. 

Looks like neither are likely to occur anytime soon.


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## Michigan Czar (Jan 4, 2010)

I did an owner update a week ago, my rep said that;

1. The internal system will go live June 15
2. Marriott would not sell any more deeded weeks after that time they will only sell points so this was my last chance to pick up another deeded week.

I found either hard to believe as I thought they were only going to use the point system for trading. He also showed me the printed out TUG thread that Dave started about the internal trading system and said Dave had it all correct.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I would be interested in hearing an update from Dave too.


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## Bill4728 (Jan 4, 2010)

m61376 said:


> -I think the real issue is that Marriott wouldn't be starting from scratch. You are right in that, in any points system, a point needs to be a point, regardless of which resort it was credited for. The issue is that there are many happy Platinum owners across a broad range of resorts that suddenly would likely see a very different point credit, such that a Platinum week, for example, at one of the Orlando resorts may only receive enough points to trade into either an off season week or a smaller unit at one of the more demand locations. Similarly for owners of different seasons/resorts, who heretofore enjoyed great trades; likely there would be many "winners" and many "losers" in the new system, which would likely lead to unhappy owners.



I also see this a the main problem with a "retro" point system. Right now your spring "gold" NCV week is a great trader in II. Will it still be a great trader in the new point system??


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## m61376 (Jan 4, 2010)

Bill-
I foresee it's value being more of an average of the season. What I mean is that now savvy owners reserve some peak non-Platinum weeks which may trade as well or better than some of the Platinum weeks, even in the same resort. Point vales will likely depend on the average week in the season- a win for some, a loss for others.

Michigan Czar- 
Once again, different reps are telling exactly opposite stories. It is interesting that the rep had a copy of the Tug thread. Like many others, I've long suspected that "leaks" are made possibly to gauge reaction and get feedback (which is why I've bothered to reiterate my contention that I feel that all present Marriott owners will be treated equitably, simply because there is no financial incentive to penalize any current owner, regardless of their source of purchase; as for future resale buyers, that's another ballgame). 

My impression from those I spoke to was consistent with what the rep said about only points being sold in the future. Cancun was supposed to be the first resort rolled out as a points only property, and was supposed to coincide with the roll out of the new program.


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## dougp26364 (Jan 4, 2010)

Michigan Czar said:


> I did an owner update a week ago, my rep said that;
> 
> 1. The internal system will go live June 15
> 2. Marriott would not sell any more deeded weeks after that time they will only sell points so this was my last chance to pick up another deeded week.
> ...



It seems that earlier it was suppose to go live in Feb. and I'm pretty sure there have been dates earlier than that.

Only when I get something in writing from Marriott or, something in writing from a sales rep who allows me to take a copy with me will I believe anything. Until then, it's only lip service coming from someone who wants to sell me something. A person with any sort of financial incentive isn't a good place to get information.


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## GregT (Jan 4, 2010)

Michigan Czar,

I heard the exact same thing from my sales rep (June 2010 implementation, last time to buy deeded properties) -- who is also a MOC sales rep, so perhaps it's the same person??

He was prodding me to buy a 2BR Napili because he knows I was sniffing around when I was there last year.  

It will be interesting to see what really happens later this year!


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## Clark (Jan 4, 2010)

Michigan Czar said:


> I did an owner update a week ago, my rep said that;
> 
> 1. The internal system will go live June 15
> 2. Marriott would not sell any more deeded weeks after that time they will only sell points so this was my last chance to pick up another deeded week.



Hmmm -- I have just started a New Year's major project to upgrade / automate ******.com , planning it to still be based on seasonal ownership.  If season-based ownership is going to be a thing of the past, that could be a wasted-energy approach :=(

Given Marriott's track record though, I would probably have it finished before they ever get their (alleged) system out -- but it could be the wrong approach -- but maybe they will *never* get it out -- or maybe I should do  it just because, well, I can --

Decisions decisions ----


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## dougp26364 (Jan 4, 2010)

Another thing I find interesting is that any salesman might be pushing the idea that one should hurry up and buy because deeded weeks will become a thing of the past. What I anticipate they'll do next is ask all of us deeded week owners to cough up an additional fee to join any future points program.....assuming there ever is a points program. Wouldn't that just tick people off to have them pay thousands now, then turn around and have Marriott ask for whatever joiner fee they might decide on.


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## Dave M (Jan 5, 2010)

Michigan Czar said:


> I did an owner update a week ago, my rep said that;
> 
> 1. The internal system will go live June 15
> 2. Marriott would not sell any more deeded weeks after that time they will only sell points so this was my last chance to pick up another deeded week.
> ...


I have no current information about any possible implementation date. My primary source has been silent. I generally don't ask for information. I am fed information when my source deems it appropriate.

However, I find it very believable that there would be several different pieces of info being disseminated re the status. (Internal exchange project both "on hold" and "will go live June 15"). It makes sense that salespeople will tell you what might encourage you to buy now. I do find it a stretch to believe that Marriott wouldn't sell any more deeded weeks after June 15.

My reaction if a salesperson told me that no more deeded weeks will be sold after June 15? "Golly, Mr. Salesperson, that sounds as though Marriott believes that a points product is going to be far superior to the current weeks product. It certainly sounds as though I would be making a big mistake by buying something (a deeded week) that Marriott believes will become a dinosaur and that I likely won't be able to sell in the resale market. So I guess I'll just wait until June 15 comes and then decide whether the points product is right for me. Thanks for updating me. May I have my Marriott Rewards points now that were promised for sitting in this sales meeting?"


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## indyhorizons (Jan 5, 2010)

Dave M said:


> I have no current information about any possible implementation date. My primary source has been silent. I generally don't ask for information. I am fed information when my source deems it appropriate.




What an interesting choice of words, "fed information".  Hmmmmm.


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## Dave M (Jan 5, 2010)

I now have an update from my primary source.

The latest info I have is that, as reported above, the June date for implementation of the internal trading system is what Marriott is shooting for. Although there is some possibility of a delay, such a delay, if there is one, should be in terms of weeks, not many months. Also, Marriott will still sell some deeded weeks, which will become known as "legacy weeks".

Cancun is still a done deal, but sales will likely be delayed until 2011. The delay is due to current economic conditions that affect MVCI, as has been reported here over the past year.

I don't have any more details, such as what the new program will look like.


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## LAX Mom (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanks for the update Dave. I have considered the purchase of another resale Marriott but decided months ago to wait until I knew more details of the new program. I currently use my Marriott lock-offs to exchanges during Flexchange. If the new program doesn't have a similar feature then I doubt I'd convert to points. I'll sell my weeks or stay with II for exchanges.

I would think Marriott would have to offer some sort of "Flexchange" in their new trading program. When it's 2 weeks from check-in you can't expect a "like for like" exchange into Ko'Olina. 

It will be interesting to see what Marriott offers. With the bad economy I hope they get this right.


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## FlyerBobcat (Jan 5, 2010)

Dave,

So what triggered this update?  Was it simply the discussion here on this thread?



Dave M said:


> I now have an update from my primary source.
> 
> The latest info I have is that, as reported above, the June date for implementation of the internal trading system is what Marriott is shooting for. Although there is some possibility of a delay, such a delay, if there is one, should be in terms of weeks, not many months. Also, Marriott will still sell some deeded weeks, which will become known as "legacy weeks".
> 
> ...


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## Dave M (Jan 5, 2010)

Sorry, Tom. I don't have any more info to share at this time.  

(And, no, I didn't misunderstand your question.)


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## GregT (Jan 5, 2010)

Dave, thanks very much for the information -- it's very helpful (and invaluable) that you have someone's confidence within Marriott.    I too am very curious to see what they will finally introduce.

All the best,

Greg


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## DanCali (Jan 5, 2010)

*Points System Can Be a Disaster*

I am a Starwood owner and looking to get a Marriott or two because I believe Starwood's point system sucks.

Marriott has a beautiful system going on with the II trades and it works quite well. It is based on trade power and supply and demand - which is how things should be. A points system, which would make things similar to Starwood, is never done with owners' interests in mind and will likely make things worse for many or most. I do not think Marriott owners should be looking forward to this change.

Let me give you an example of how Starwood uses the points system to their advantage - and how it hurts owners.

The two most "coveted" properties to trade into within the Starwood system are Westin St. John and Harborside at Atlantis. These are sold by Starwood as "you don't buy here to trade - you buy here because you want to come here every year". The peak season at these resorts (in terms of most points awarded) is winter, but summer is also extremely high demand due to school vacations. Owners buying a summer floating week at either of these properties (classified by Starwod as "Platinum", versus the winter "Platinum Plus") get a certain number of points which can be used for internal trades. As it turns out, you can own a Summer 3BR Villa in St. John with a private pool or a 3BR lockout at Harborside and you get 125,000 StarOptions. For a 2BR Lockout you get 96,000 Staroptions. But most purchasers are steered away from looking at what that gets you because "you buy where you want to go". 

Now we can look at some of the other nice Starwood properties. A 2BR lockout in Hawaii gets 148,000 StarOptions weeks 1-52. Same for Cancun summer weeks. Same for Desert timeshares in California and Arizona winer weeks. When these are sold, the internal exchange system is highly touted. "You can get 12 days in Atlatis or St. John because this property is so highly valued and you get so many points". "This is the Rolls Royce of our system"...

So now let me ask you this - do you think that 2BR or 3BR summer week owners at St. John or Atlantis (where MFs are $3000) have any incentive to ever trade their units internally if they can't even get a 2BR in Hawaii, Cancun, or even in the desert? Very few do - most either use or rent their units... so very few trades are ever confirmed. But having the "ability" to trade there helps Starwood sell all their newer properties to uninformed owners.

Now think how you would feel if your Aruba summer weeks couldn't get you a summer 2BR at NCV or Hawaii, or a winter week at DSV. Nobody trades out of there anymore so nobody trades in there anymore.... Even owners with a lot of points are not necessarily better off in this scenario if owners with fewer points at desired locations choose to use or rent their units.

On top of that - Right now Marriott owners reserve prime weeks and can exchange them with high trading power. Conversely, Starwood owners cannot deposit weeks they reserve into II. Starwood deposits some week in their season... (the trading power is some blended average of the season) so the best weeks are kept for internal exchanges. It sounds good if you like the points system, but that means that owners who want to go through II don't see prime weeks anymore. So don't think that the II option as you know it today will remain attractive is Marriott takes a similar route. 

The Marriott product today is a good one - it would be a shame to see it ruined.


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## thinze3 (Jan 5, 2010)

LAX Mom said:


> Thanks for the update Dave. I have considered the purchase of another resale Marriott but decided months ago to wait until I knew more details of the new program. I currently use my Marriott lock-offs to exchanges during Flexchange. If the new program doesn't have a similar feature then I doubt I'd convert to points. I'll sell my weeks or stay with II for exchanges.
> 
> I would think Marriott would have to offer some sort of "Flexchange" in their new trading program. When it's 2 weeks from check-in you can't expect a "like for like" exchange into Ko'Olina.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what Marriott offers. With the bad economy I hope they get this right.



Lisa, existing owners will probably be grandfathered. Personally I would buy 'before' the change. If the change doesn't suit you, you will probably have time to sell before resale prices drop - if they do drop.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 5, 2010)

Hmmmmm.  Interesting.

Dave, thanks for the update.  For those of us who love to think out loud, this is the sort of thing that can lead to epic threads on TUG.  

This is one of the things that's great about TUG - reading the thoughts of the most-knowledgable MVCI owners, about any aspect of ownership, helps me to flesh out my own thoughts.  The only thing I don't like about you, Dave, being the person who has a contact for this, is that it puts you in a difficult position when these threads take off.  I'd love to know your opinions about what the new exchange/point system will be and how you might expect it to work, but of course it's understandable that you can't contribute in that way, too.  Our loss.


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## GregT (Jan 5, 2010)

DanCali raises some interesting points about Starwood, and the weaknesses of Starwood's system and the relative benefits of Marriott's current system.

I think we all like the current Marriott system because we understand it and have learned how to exploit the loopholes.  I don't believe Marriott ever intended to create a system where it was so easy for owners to trade up (in an exchange transaction that doesn't financially benefit Marriott).

Additionally, the current business model is heavily dependent on Marriott's ablity to sell timeshares, which will become more and more volatile due to the (permanent?) change in the economy.  

Converting to a points-based system will allow them to leverage the existing network of Marriott properties (and create a "trade into here only with Marriott points" mentality to stimulate new sales, and, IMPORTANTLY, provide a recurring stable revenue stream to them from the annual dues required to participate in the points-based system.  

It will very interesting to see what comes out of this -- and good luck to all (and to Marriott!!)

Greg


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## CMF (Jan 5, 2010)

This news is 






I get to learn the ins and outs of Marriott timeshare ownership all over again.

Charles


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## Buddy&Budette (Jan 5, 2010)

I have been contemplating adding another week(s).  Was trying to decide between getting into Starwood or adding to Marriott.  Looks like I will be doing neither for now.  Starwood just messed up their system and Marriott looks to be doing something that is perhaps similar.  

Will wait to see what develops before I make a move.

Interesting that one is expected to buy with no security of what to expect as far as future use/benefits ... thus the stigma of "timeshare".

Please don't interrupt the last comment as I am putting the Marriott/Starwood/Hyatt/Hilton/ etc in the same group as the "converted motels".

However, it does seem the industry does generally speaking take liberties with its customer base ... the degree these liberties are taken just varies.


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## m61376 (Jan 5, 2010)

GregT said:


> DanCali raises some interesting points about Starwood, and the weaknesses of Starwood's system and the relative benefits of Marriott's current system.
> 
> I think we all like the current Marriott system because we understand it and have learned how to exploit the loopholes.  I don't believe Marriott ever intended to create a system where it was so easy for owners to trade up (in an exchange transaction that doesn't financially benefit Marriott).
> 
> ...



Very true!

Maybe it is due to my own limitations, but I don't see how Marriott can create an equitable system after the fact, because in any new system there are bound to be "winners" and "losers." As pointed out, there are significant downsides to Starwood's system and I'm guessing that many of those same problems will plague Marriott's new points system.

Once they start assigning different point values to different properties/season and owners can no longer trade like for like wrt size, I think there are going to be a lot of unhappy owners. Another problem, akin to what happened with Starwood, is in order to sell newer properties they will likely be assigned higher point values, which may make it very difficult over time to trade into any newer resorts if/when Marriott resumes expansion.

I hope Marriott higher-ups have looked at how Starwood's recent changes have impacted customer satisfaction and recognize that maintaining a loyal customer base is in everyone's best interests. And I am not referring to the direct versus resale issue since, like Terry, I believe that Marriott will ultimately decide it is in their best interest to grandfather existing resale owners, but I am referring to the potential inequitable distribution of points based on not only property desirability because of location and season, but also reflecting higher price points of newer resorts over time. For example, how will the original Maui property be valued in comparison to Lakeshore Reserves or some newer property? Will the new Cancun property, once released, be relatively overvalued in order to promote sales? I think these are issues that concern everyone, because if we join the new program we will effectively give up our right to trade a week for a week.

Personally, I find it troublesome.

Oh- btw- thanks Dave. Your input is all too infrequent these days. Retirement must be taking up too much of your time


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## SueDonJ (Jan 5, 2010)

GregT said:


> ... I don't believe Marriott ever intended to create a system where it was so easy for owners to trade up ...



I do hope to see one feature with a points exchange system that will "even out" trades for those of us who routinely are forced to trade down.  We own 3BR non-lock/off weeks that are GREAT traders, but 95% of the time we're pretty much forced into 2BR exchanges simply because there isn't a large inventory of 3BR weeks anywhere.  We bought the 3BRs because that's what we want to use at our home resort, and we knew the exchange limitations that we'd face, but still it will be nice if the new system opens up our options.  So for example if our total point value was to exceed what's needed for the 2BR exchange we accept, we'd have surplus points to put toward another week.

I've always thought that it would be great if II offered something like an AC to any owner who trades down in the # of BRs - if you own a 2BR and take a 1BR on an exchange, you'd get an AC for an additional 1BR week.  Of course it couldn't have a guarantee of use attached to it because the inventory numbers wouldn't match up, but you'd at least have the option to maybe take advantage of available weeks.

That's what I'm hoping for, anyway, something that might take the little sting out of trading down. 



GregT said:


> It will very interesting to see what comes out of this -- and good luck to all (and to Marriott!!)



Yep, good luck.


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## rsackett (Jan 5, 2010)

The one part I am most interested to see is how Marriott works out the week to points for resorts with different seasons.  Currently if you own a Bronze week you pay the same mainence fee as a Platinum owner.  This is justified since you both spend a week in the room.  If however under the points system the Platinum owner gets more points my guess is that the Bronze owner will not think he should pay the same mainence fees any more.

Ray


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## SueDonJ (Jan 5, 2010)

rsackett said:


> The one part I am most interested to see is how Marriott works out the week to points for resorts with different seasons.  Currently if you own a Bronze week you pay the same mainence fee as a Platinum owner.  This is justified since you both spend a week in the room.  If however under the points system the Platinum owner gets more points my guess is that the Bronze owner will not think he should pay the same mainence fees any more.
> 
> Ray



I guess I can see this if a points value is assigned to every ownership for every use option, but not if a points value is assigned only for exchange purposes.  If the points value has absolutely no impact on home resort usage, then the m/f shouldn't be affected.

IMO, all other things being equal (same resort, #BR and building view type,) a Gold week should be assigned less exchange points value than a Platinum week.


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## rsackett (Jan 5, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> I guess I can see this if a points value is assigned to every ownership for every use option, but not if a points value is assigned only for exchange purposes.  If the points value has absolutely no impact on home resort usage, then the m/f shouldn't be affected.
> 
> IMO, all other things being equal (same resort, #BR and building view type,) a Gold week should be assigned less exchange points value than a Platinum week.



I agree, but if you were a Bronze owner staying in your resort for one week and found out the person next to you paid thy same maint fees you did but he is staying three weeks becaus he came on points?  Most point systems charge more maint fees for more points.

Ray


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## LAX Mom (Jan 5, 2010)

You know that whatever system Marriott implements some owners will be very upset. Owners purchased under the current system and if Marriott changes the terms of exchanging it will anger some people. I'm amazed that in this tough economy Marriott would roll out a new program knowing they'll have some unhappy owners. 

Unhappy owners talk to friends, family, neighbors and work colleagues about how they feel cheated.  They will spread the word to others and it will be more difficult for Marriott to sell units in the future. 

Bronze & silver owners likely won't be pleased with the point values they are assigned. Also the issue raised about MF for these owners is a good point. If everyone pays the same MF how do you make the points equitable between platinum, gold, silver & bronze owners?

When they changed the MR points program last January there was a huge revolt on flyertalk. I can't believe they would risk that again in this financial environment. You can't please everybody all the time!


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## SueDonJ (Jan 5, 2010)

rsackett said:


> I agree, but if you were a Bronze owner staying in your resort for one week and found out the person next to you paid thy same maint fees you did but he is staying three weeks becaus he came on points?  Most point systems charge more maint fees for more points.
> 
> Ray



I'm not sure I understand.  Do you mean his week that he owns at another resort was assigned enough points value to give him three weeks during Bronze season at your resort?  Then I'd figure that he owns something that gives him a pretty high point value in relation to the point value assigned to that Bronze week at your resort - maybe he owns Platinum at an oceanside resort and traded to Bronze at an inland resort, or maybe he owns a 3BR and traded to studios?  That's equitable to me, if point values are only assigned for purposes of exchanging.

Plus, with II now we don't consider m/f when exchanging, do we?  I can't remember ever reading here on TUG that it's something to think about when determining trade value.  Certainly plenty of folks have exchanged into the higher-m/f resorts like the Hawaii and Aruba properties using their weeks that cost them less in m/f, and it hasn't appeared to cause problems.

Now if in this anticipated program change, point values are assigned for purposes of home resort occupancy as well as exchanging, like the way DVC works, then I can see how m/f would be impacted and/or would be a consideration for exchanges.


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## LAX Mom (Jan 5, 2010)

rsackett said:


> I agree, but if you were a Bronze owner staying in your resort for one week and found out the person next to you paid thy same maint fees you did but he is staying three weeks becaus he came on points?  Most point systems charge more maint fees for more points.
> 
> Ray



I think Ray is assuming you have an owner who owns platinum at the same resort where you own a bronze. His platinum is worth many more points (3x) than your bronze week. He trades his points for 3 weeks at your resort, but pays just one MF.

How does Marriott intend to sell silver & bronze weeks in the future?


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## LAX Mom (Jan 5, 2010)

thinze3 said:


> Lisa, existing owners will probably be grandfathered. Personally I would buy 'before' the change. If the change doesn't suit you, you will probably have time to sell before resale prices drop - if they do drop.



You're probably right, but they could also grandfather existing owners as of Jan. 1, 2010, May 1, 2010 or any other date they select. Until I know how they'll treat existing resale owners I don't want to risk buying another week now. If I don't like the new program I'll just dump the Marriott weeks I currently own.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 5, 2010)

LAX Mom said:


> I think Ray is assuming you have an owner who owns platinum at the same resort where you own a bronze. His platinum is worth many more points (3x) than your bronze week. He trades his points for 3 weeks at your resort, but pays just one MF.



Considering that there is an inherent premium on Platinum in relation to Bronze weeks,  I'd expect that his Platinum would offer him a premium of some sort with exchanges over my Bronze.  With usage that translates to him using his one week during the busier/most pleasant climate time of year; with trading that translates to more point value.  If he uses his week at his home resort, he would still only be entitled to one premium week for the m/f he's paid.  If he exchanges, whether it's back into his home resort or at another, m/f are irrelevant (just as they are now with II.)



LAX Mom said:


> How does Marriott intend to sell silver & bronze weeks in the future?



"Buy where you will use" will still come into play and a certain number of folks will buy silver and bronze for that reason.  But your question also raises another issue that others have mentioned and I'm hoping they'll make allowances for in the new exchange system - banking and borrowing.  DVC successfully markets smaller contracts because folks know that they'll be able to combine up to three years worth of points for one trip.


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## cruisin (Jan 5, 2010)

Any points system will benefit Marriott, more benefit to Marriott will mean less benefit or more cost to owners, it will be interesting to see to what degree the impact is.


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## m61376 (Jan 5, 2010)

Besides the issue raised about bronze-silver-gold-platinum differences at the same resort, what I find even more worrisome is how Marriott will assign value to present and future resorts. Will they artificially inflate the point value of future resorts as a sales tool (which of course would make it increasingly difficult if not impossible for current owners to exchange into newer resorts)? Will Platinum owners of certain resorts benefit at the expense of Platinum owners at "lesser" properties? 

I know the Asia Pacific points program is only a single model, but all the info. posted previously about it makes me nervous as to what Marriott might devise. I agree with LAX Mom that revamping a program in the middle of an economic downturn can be very risky.


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## SMB1 (Jan 6, 2010)

Is it known that one would have to covert to points to get into a new system.  Might it be that owners could get the best of both worlds...that the internal trading system simply assigns our owned weeks a point value in a for trading purposes only much like II already does?  The weeks would still be deeded.  Owners could belong to the new system or trade direct or through another trading company.  Is that out of the question?


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## DMSTWO (Jan 6, 2010)

It's threads like this that make TUG so interesting and valuable for those who care to read and enter decisions armed with a reasonable understanding of what they are truly buying.  I appreciate all the good dialog.

The thread has taken an interesting twist that has been hashed and rehashed many times in the Starwood threads, and to a certain extent in other systems...

Most Tuggers comment from the prospective of owners when posting their opinions about a system change.  They don't understand why a TS operator would make a change... given the economy...or that might upset current owners... or that fundamentally changes the ground rules from what certain owners believe they bought and are entitled too (i.e. a certain trading value, or participation in a trading system).

We should remember two things when buying a TS within the deeded unit systems.

First, what you are actually buying is a specific unit at a specific resort during a specified week or season (even if you have floating weeks they legally have to be based on the existence of a physical unit, you may not actually be assigned a unit but the number of physical unit weeks and the number of units weeks for sale must match).  That is all you have bought.  All the trading programs are added perks and subject to change.  Why are the trading rights not "guaranteed"?  I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express so I will offer my understanding.  1) TS resorts, even those in a systems like Marriott, etc. are typically independent legal structures and are controlled by their board of directors (or HOA board).  That board theoretically transfers over time from the developer to the owners.  Once the board is in the control of the owners, the owners can actually vote themselves out of the system, therefore the developer can't make deeded or contractual guarantees that other parties (owners) might change in the future.  2) The trading systems aren't guaranteed  because they are used as a marketing draw to encourage sales.  By allowing flexibility they have the opportunity to changes those perks from time to time to maximize their sales.  This helps set their market position and allows them to respond to competitors actions.

So why would Marriott change the system now in this economy and risk losing favor with some of their current loyal owners.  Specifically, because of the economy.  They need to stimulate sales and current owners don't necessarily figure into that equation.  Why should they do something to make a prior buyer happy?  They already got your money.  Sure some current owners may be repeat buyers, but repeat buyers aren't as big a market as you might believe (especially if they come to learn about the first rule of TUG).  The developer is willing to risk displeasing some of those potential repeat buyers in the interest of luring new money to their system.  They do that by becoming more attractive to those they have failed to appeal to in the past or those that they believe will weigh their choices between the other big four hotel TS systems.  I'm one of those and I'm an example of the type person they want to target.  I think highly of the Marriott properties but haven't bought Marriott and chose Hyatt instead specifically because Marriott didn't have an internal trading system.

Now if they do put in place a reasonable internal exchange system I will buy into Marriott.  Marriott has more resorts and the resorts are equal to or nicer than some of those at Starwood and Hyatt.  I always wanted to take advantage of the Marriott resorts, but if I was going to have to trade through II anyway, why not get the benefit of a strong internal trading system like Hyatt's and also still have the flexibility to trade into Marriott.  I understand the niceties of Marriott to Marriott II trades versus outside to Marriott, but I thought and still do that I have more trading options and just as strong a trading power through my Hyatt units than any within Marriott.

So at least for one new buyer Marriott will have succeeded in putting the last piece of the puzzle in place if they move forward with the internal trading system.

I will, however, buy understanding that I will only buy at a resort I would be willing to use every year because even though the internal trading system was the final enticement, I will understand that it can change at any time and that those changes might or might not prove to be to my advantage.

So I will follow what some consider the first rule of TS buying..."buy where you are willing to go year after year", and I will also follow the first rule of TUG..."never buy from the developer, only buy resale"...

Oops, sorry Marriott even though your marketing ploy will have won my interest, you won't actually receive my money directly...


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## DMSTWO (Jan 6, 2010)

SMB1 said:


> Is it known that one would have to covert to points to get into a new system.  Might it be that owners could get the best of both worlds...that the internal trading system simply assigns our owned weeks a point value in a for trading purposes only much like II already does?  The weeks would still be deeded.  Owners could belong to the new system or trade direct or through another trading company.  Is that out of the question?



That's how I would expect the system to work.  The owned weeks are owned, they can't change that.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 6, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Besides the issue raised about bronze-silver-gold-platinum differences at the same resort, what I find even more worrisome is how Marriott will assign value to present and future resorts. Will they artificially inflate the point value of future resorts as a sales tool (which of course would make it increasingly difficult if not impossible for current owners to exchange into newer resorts)? Will Platinum owners of certain resorts benefit at the expense of Platinum owners at "lesser" properties?
> 
> I know the Asia Pacific points program is only a single model, but all the info. posted previously about it makes me nervous as to what Marriott might devise. I agree with LAX Mom that revamping a program in the middle of an economic downturn can be very risky.



But that's what I expect with exchanges as well as ownerships now, m, that all Platinums are not created equal.  Neither are all Gold, all Silver, etc...  Isn't it understood that with some resorts, a Gold week at one resort may actually be a better trader than a Platinum week at another resort?  If a newer resort has all the amenities of an older resort but also has brand-spanking-new furnishings and appointments inside those brand-new walls, shouldn't the overall package have a higher premium?  I think so.

I'm not thinking that this new system will be a total points conversion that would make the overall MVCI product similar to DVC in usage, but I do see how an overlay points value system (that would affect only the exchange usage) could be implemented to make trading more similar to how DVC manages its non-home resort reservations.  And there, the newer resorts do require more points than the older resorts for the same nights.

Yet Disney/DVC manages to hold its value better than any other timeshare system - it's no wonder that MVCI might be looking to an industry leader as a possible working model.  It could be that especially in this tough economy when MVCI has temporarily suspended development, they're forced to consider changes in the existing ownerships to generate revenue.  From the sounds of things they've been looking at revamping internal exchanges for quite some time, anyway.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 6, 2010)

SMB1 said:


> Is it known that one would have to covert to points to get into a new system.  Might it be that owners could get the best of both worlds...that the internal trading system simply assigns our owned weeks a point value in a for trading purposes only much like II already does?  The weeks would still be deeded.  Owners could belong to the new system or trade direct or through another trading company.  Is that out of the question?



That's actually how I'm thinking (wishfully?) it will be.


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## Dave M (Jan 6, 2010)

Although, as current owners, we would all hope for a free entry into the points program, that isn't likely. For a look at the info I had last July, including a reference to an entry fee to join the points program and a reference to resale owners, see the first post in this thread. 

Also note that the projected implementation date as shown in that post was approximately the same as now seems to be projected.


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## DanCali (Jan 6, 2010)

m61376 said:


> I agree with LAX Mom that revamping a program in the middle of an economic downturn can be very risky.



It is risky revamping in general. They'd be taking a product that most people are highly satisfied with and converting it to something that could be inferior in many ways. Just compare the owner satisfaction survey's on TUG for Marriott versus Starwood.


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## mpizza (Jan 6, 2010)

If they're implementing in June, I would think they'll send official notice 60-90 days prior.   It will interesting to see where the resale market goes - alot of folks holding on to weeks to see if the new system works for them, or alot of dumping?    Once a week is converted to points, will it end the "resale" vs. "direct" discrepancy since it will all be points-based?

Depending on the system details, I have one platinum week purchased direct and one silver resale week I use for trading that I'll probably enroll. 

The other platinum week I purchased resale I always use at my home resort, so probably won't pay to enroll since I never exchange.  

Maria


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## Stefa (Jan 6, 2010)

DanCali said:


> It is risky revamping in general. They'd be taking a product that most people are highly satisfied with and converting it to something that could be inferior in many ways. Just compare the owner satisfaction survey's on TUG for Marriott versus Starwood.



Dan

Starwood has other issues and there is no reason to believe Marriott would find themselves in the same situation just because they adopt a points-based system.   The only similar problem I could see Marriott having is the need to inflate the point value of new resorts in order to get them to sell.  Starwood did this with Cancun where the points value of platinum ownerships was increased from 95k to 148k in order to help sales.  

Starwood has a significant disparity in resort quality.  Although most of their resorts are nice enough the Westins are far superior to the Sheratons.   They also have a complex system where the rules are inconsistent and often vague.  They also have some resorts where resales are part of their internal trading system and others that are not, but sometimes they make exceptions and allow resale owners to buy their way in.  

Much of the frustration with Starwood has less to do with their points system and more to do with their management decisions such as the new trading rules for II and the rising maintenance fees.  

In no way am I suggesting that Marriott won't have issues if/when they move to a new system.  There will certainly be a large number of dissatisfied owners and much grumbling here on TUG.   I just don't find the comparisons to Starwood particularly helpful because Starwood's point system has to be the most poorly implemented.


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## iamnotshopgirl (Jan 6, 2010)

Originally posted by DMSTWO "Most Tuggers comment from the prospective of owners when posting their opinions about a system change. They don't understand why a TS operator would make a change... given the economy...or that might upset current owners... or that fundamentally changes the ground rules from what certain owners believe they bought and are entitled too (i.e. a certain trading value, or participation in a trading system)."

I like your post and although I only quoted a small section you have summed up nicely my feelings in general about timeshareing. But I did not arrive at our common view now shared without some thought. I came to this view after a comment made by a fellow tugger on this board (another thread) which I contemplated for quite some time. Not to go into the specifics of the other thread but briefly it concerned Marriott point changes to their rewards program and the new rental program. I did not like (still do not) changes made which effected me AFTER the fact of purchasing. One of the replies to my post from a fellow tugger put it bluntly and in prospective "the only thing Marriott owes you is a vacation". I still remember the name of the tugger because it infuriated me so much. But the fact is he was right! You have detailed quite nicely in your posting exactly how I came to that conclusion. If I knew at the time of purchase what I now know I probably would not have bought. Hopefully, potential T/S buyers who do their research before buying will come across threads like this one on Tug and be made more aware of what can happen after the fact of purchasing.

bob


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## SMB1 (Jan 6, 2010)

Dave M said:


> Although, as current owners, we would all hope for a free entry into the points program, that isn't likely. For a look at the info I had last July, including a reference to an entry fee to join the points program and a reference to resale owners, see the first post in this thread.
> 
> Also note that the projected implementation date as shown in that post was approximately the same as now seems to be projected.



Oh I'm sure I'd have to buy in and/or pay yearly fees to be allowed to trade in an internal system.  However, That doesn't necessarily mean I'd have to convert my deeded week for points.  Marriott could, if it were in their best interest, run an internal trade system much like II where they give my reserved week a point value that I can use toward a trade or bank those points.  I don't know enough about the overhead cost of something like that.  I'd just rather not convert my weeks.


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## littlestar (Jan 6, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Yet Disney/DVC manages to hold its value better than any other timeshare system - it's no wonder that MVCI might be looking to an industry leader as a possible working model.  It could be that especially in this tough economy when MVCI has temporarily suspended development, they're forced to consider changes in the existing ownerships to generate revenue.  From the sounds of things they've been looking at revamping internal exchanges for quite some time, anyway.



The only reason why DVC holds its value is because of the rental prices for a Walt Disney World deluxe hotel - it's basically because of the Disney theme parks. DVC is a niche product and unique because of the parks. They haven't been very successful in selling off property resorts - it took forever to sell out Vero and Hilton Head and a lot of people bought those just to book at the 7 month window for Walt Disney World stays.

In this economy, I won't be happy to be charged twice for something I already bought. I feel like every time I turn around somebody is asking me to bend over and let them kick me in the butt - I'm tired of it. Congress making deals behind closed doors  - frankly, I'm sick of worrying about change that means my pocket is lighter - somebody is always trying to pick it.


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## AceValenta (Jan 6, 2010)

littlestar said:


> In this economy, I won't be happy to be charged twice for something I already bought. I feel like every time I turn around somebody is asking me to bend over and let them kick me in the butt - I'm tired of it. Congress making deals behind closed doors  - frankly, I'm sick of worrying about change that means my pocket is lighter - somebody is always trying to pick it.




By far  the best comment made by anyone about this subject. Change comes with a cost....Who knows how much this one will take from our pockets.


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## winger (Jan 6, 2010)

We as owners must be very alert and critical with any change to the current system - to seek out whether the change(s) really benefits us as owners.  Like many things in life however, any change(s) may benefit some, but at the same time not for others.  It could depend on each person's travel habits, financial status, etc.

Personally, thinking worse-case scenario, I would hate to see another change(s) to the Marriott system which 'devalues' my ownership SO SOON after the recent Marriott Reward Points devaluation last January (2009).   Now however, IF the new points system actually increases the value of our MVCI ownership, well then it may help our feelings about purchasing directly from MVCI in the first place.  

Before the Jan 2009 MRPs devaluation, I was pumped up about my ownership and openly recommended MVCI ownership to family and friends.  Since Jan 2009, I have NOT recommended MVCI to anyone, not even my enemies!


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## sdtugger (Jan 6, 2010)

*Need An Incentive*

I just reread Dave's original post in the original thread.  He repeatedly said that the buy in would be low and "easy" so that many would move to the new system.  But, of course, adding a new fee (even a low, "easy" fee ) for an existing service wouldn't incentivize many to change.  So, there needs to be an incentive.  

Dave's original post stated that "prime" weeks would have more value in the Marriott internal system than in the II system.  So, that is the incentive.  

It will be very interesting to see if this is true, i.e., the prime weeks do have significantly more value.  It will also be interesting to see where that value comes from.  In other words, there is only a certain pot of Marriott weeks to trade and if the "prime" weeks get more value, then the "less prime" weeks must get less value.

This could either be a great success and everyone will switch.  Or, it could be a dismal failure and few will switch.  Or, it could be somewhere in between.  My biggest concern is that there will be two competing systems going forward and by definition both systems will have fewer total weeks than the current system.

But, at the end of the day, this only impacts trading.  I can live with staying in my timeshares during my season or selling those that don't work (for whatever they may be worth after the switch).


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## Beverley (Jan 6, 2010)

littlestar said:


> In this economy, I won't be happy to be charged twice for something I already bought. I feel like every time I turn around somebody is asking me to bend over and let them kick me in the butt - I'm tired of it. Congress making deals behind closed doors  - frankly, I'm sick of worrying about change that means my pocket is lighter - somebody is always trying to pick it.



Well put


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## winger (Jan 6, 2010)

sdtugger said:


> I just reread Dave's original post in the original thread.  He repeatedly said that the buy in would be low and "easy" so that many would move to the new system.  But, of course, adding a new fee (even a low, "easy" fee ) for an existing service wouldn't incentivize many to change.  So, there needs to be an incentive.
> 
> Dave's original post stated that "prime" weeks would have more value in the Marriott internal system than in the II system.  So, that is the incentive.
> 
> ...


so would a platinum deeded week for Jul 15th at resort A get more value than the another platinum deeded week say for Jun 1st at resort A ?


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## JimIg23 (Jan 6, 2010)

Although I really like Marriott hotels and timeshares (which is why I bought into it) based on Marriott’s track record with their "enhancements" to their reward point system, I don’t have much confidence the program will be better for anyone other than Marriott.  I agree with the post that I also have concerns that two competing system may lead to less inventory for prime time for everyone.   I can't wait to see what this is will be and how much they want for us to join it.  I really hope they don't ask resale people for thousands of dollars to join, because I don't think I would do it.


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## Beverley (Jan 6, 2010)

winger said:


> We as owners must be very alert and critical with any change to the current system - to seek out whether the change(s) really benefits us as owners.



As much as I really like Marriott and have been satisfied, they are a corporate business and track records of corporate business goes something like this ".... stockholders ... business is business ... bottom line ..." A points base system if introduced is designed to benefit Marriott not you or me.  

While it is possible that some may like the "new product", I do not believe that most will.  We've invested tons of money in Marriott and have of course enjoyed many wonderful vacations ... I, for one, do not want a points based system.    If I did I would have bought more in Hilton and World Mark.  

As for a points based system I think World Mark has the best.  No one has any ownership except for points.  They have one of the best online reservation systems, too. None-the-less, while I am happy with that which we own in those systems, my most satisfaction come with the "old fashion" week to week ownership. :whoopie: 

Remember RCI just got themselves into trouble for "redirecting" availability of units in their points based system via a class action suit and now (I believe) ended up with a few damages to pay.   

Beverley


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## JimIg23 (Jan 6, 2010)

winger said:


> so would a platinum deeded week for Jul 15th at resort A get more value than the another platinum deeded week say for Jun 1st at resort A ?



Interesting question, can they have varying points within a specific season?  I would assume for the people who buy now, they could, but what about those who convert?


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## SueDonJ (Jan 6, 2010)

winger said:


> so would a platinum deeded week for Jul 15th at resort A get more value than the another platinum deeded week say for Jun 1st at resort A ?



Hmmmm.  II does use an index for exchange value that uses numbered weeks.  But MVCI doesn't differentiate in practice, currently, in any way between weeks within the same season for same-size/view units at the same resort.

They could, theoretically, at least at the resorts where mention is made in the ownership documents of management having the right to institute a lottery policy for high-demand holiday weeks, because that mention in the docs allows them to acknowledge the difference between holiday and non-holiday weeks.  (The SurfWatch docs do say that, and I've seen it referenced here on TUG by owners at other resorts.)

But would they?  Hmmmm.  I can see assigning higher exchange point value to weeks which are designated and deeded as Platinum Plus, but the arbitrary nature of determining higher point values for certain holiday weeks within a same season might be too logistically difficult.  What would happen with holiday weeks that fluctuate in the calendars - wouldn't that mean that your ownership could net you varying exchange point value depending on the year you elect to exchange?

One other thing comes to mind - some folks complain that II causes problems by differentiating trade value between weeks, because exchangers gobble up those weeks leaving less inventory for owners who want to use their home resort on holiday weeks.  I can see both sides of that argument but figure that as long as it's allowed by the provisions, there's no sense complaining.  But I'll admit that I would prefer a system whereby each week within a season has equal value regardless of holidays.

Maybe in this proposed new system MVCI will follow their precedent and not consider any one week in a season more valuable than another.  Who knows.


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## DanCali (Jan 6, 2010)

winger said:


> so would a platinum deeded week for Jul 15th at resort A get more value than the another platinum deeded week say for Jun 1st at resort A ?



I don't think they can do that. Deeded weeks are assigned randomly in many cases since you bought the season. Weeks in the same season should be treated the same.


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## m61376 (Jan 6, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> But that's what I expect with exchanges as well as ownerships now, m, that all Platinums are not created equal.  Neither are all Gold, all Silver, etc...  Isn't it understood that with some resorts, a Gold week at one resort may actually be a better trader than a Platinum week at another resort?  If a newer resort has all the amenities of an older resort but also has brand-spanking-new furnishings and appointments inside those brand-new walls, shouldn't the overall package have a higher premium?  I think so.



Yes- to a certain degree. I guess what surprised me was the huge disparity when looking at the Asia Pacific points program, which may or may not be indicative of what the final program will look like. My point was that if people realized it from the get go their reaction would be far different than if suddenly faced with a relative loss of trade ability.

As it stands today, people have a certain level of expectation and have enjoyed their great trades with their Plat. Grande Vista units, for example, knowing that if they plan correctly they will likely get even high demand resorts. Potentially those not as high demand 2 BR Platinum weeks may only have enough points for a studio or 1BR, which sets the groundwork for a lot of unhappy owners. Similarly, as you mentioned, many people bought Gold weeks and are used to reserving good weeks that trade great; they will also likely be in for a rude awakening when they receive their point valuations.

And I do understand what you say about new resorts with new amenities- but those point allocations will stay the same forever, and in 3 or 4 years the brand new furnishings may not be so brand new, while another resort may have invested in a total refurbishment but their owners will not enjoy an increased valuation for the expenditure. 

As you mentioned, Disney has done this very successfully from the get-go. I am only cursorily familiar with their system, but I don't think at least they have the huge point disparity between resorts that Marriott introduced in the Asia Pacific program (at least to my knowledge). One also needs to consider what has happened with Starwood, and how unhappy Harborside and St. John's owners are that they can't even trade into the newer Starwood resorts, despite paying much higher MF's. There is a case where owners at resorts paying higher MF's can't exchange for a week at a resort with lower MF's because of inequities in the point allocation system; likely due to Starwood's greed, newer resorts were allocated more points as a sales tool to the detriment of current owners, despite their higher fees. 

One of Marriott's biggest sales pitches heretofore has been selling Gold and off season Silver and Bronze weeks, tantalizing buyers with the prospect of making great trades, and many of them, esp. with flexibility, have done just that. I think there will be a lot of unhappy owners who can no longer get the value out of their weeks that they were used to enjoying.

Of course, the final program may be very different from the Asia Pacific program and the point allocations may be much more equitable, the cost to join may be minimal and all current owners may be treated equally, with grandfathering of current resale owners, and the new program may be a wonderful enhancement to our ownership. Oh- and Marriott may protect the intrinsic value of weeks in an already decimated resale market by only having a small surcharge for future resale weeks if buyers want to join the program. But, while I may be overly cynical, I am fearful that corporate greed may undermine good intentions and we could land up with something that becomes prohibitively expensive and severely undervalues our ownerships and, moreover, makes owners of even top weeks at top resorts in 2010 at a relative disadvantage five years or so down the road when newer resorts are on board. In reality, looking to Starwood as an example, you could find a holiday week Hawaii, Aruba, or ski week, etc. owner unable to trade into a similar sized brand new unit in Orlando, for example, simply because it's the newest and Marriott wants to sell it so it grants it a higher point value.


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## m61376 (Jan 7, 2010)

winger said:


> so would a platinum deeded week for Jul 15th at resort A get more value than the another platinum deeded week say for Jun 1st at resort A ?



That's something I would be shocked if they attempted to do, because it would run counter to the way those weeks have always been sold. Buyers were told that the week assignment on the deed was only for accounting purposes and I would expect that to be a line that Marriott doesn't cross.

I fully expect all weeks in a given season at a given resort to be assigned the same point values. That will be good for some owners and bad for others, who are accustomed top nabbing the higher demand weeks and enjoying their higher trade value. Whether or not that's equitable depends upon who you ask I'm sure, but I do think that's the only way Marriott could possibly run the program.


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## Pit (Jan 7, 2010)

Dave M said:


> Also, Marriott will still sell some deeded weeks, which will become known as "legacy weeks".



From this comment, it sounds like Marriott intends to switch primarily to RTU vs. deeded ownership. Does it then follow that one will need to surrender their deed as part of the points "conversion?"


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## timtax (Jan 7, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Yes- to a certain degree. I guess what surprised me was the huge disparity when looking at the Asia Pacific points program, which may or may not be indicative of what the final program will look like. My point was that if people realized it from the get go their reaction would be far different than if suddenly faced with a relative loss of trade ability.
> 
> As it stands today, people have a certain level of expectation and have enjoyed their great trades with their Plat. Grande Vista units, for example, knowing that if they plan correctly they will likely get even high demand resorts. Potentially those not as high demand 2 BR Platinum weeks may only have enough points for a studio or 1BR, which sets the groundwork for a lot of unhappy owners. Similarly, as you mentioned, many people bought Gold weeks and are used to reserving good weeks that trade great; they will also likely be in for a rude awakening when they receive their point valuations.
> 
> ...



Would it be possible that Marriott would use one time bonus points to incent buyers of new properties just like they have used MR points in the past? This would maintain the integrity of the points system for all property owners but still serve as a marketing tool.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 7, 2010)

Pit said:


> From this comment, it sounds like Marriott intends to switch primarily to RTU vs. deeded ownership. Does it then follow that one will need to surrender their deed as part of the points "conversion?"



Points can be deeded ownership. DVC has deeded ownership even though it is points. If it does go RTU, I don't know how they could have half the resort RTU and the other half deeded. By going to RTU, you are giving up your "ownership". Deeded points, at least people think they still own something.



timtax said:


> Would it be possible that Marriott would use one time bonus points to incent buyers of new properties just like they have used MR points in the past? This would maintain the integrity of the points system for all property owners but still serve as a marketing tool.



If they do, this is akin to RCI and their renting points. They shouldn't be pulling weeks out of the exchange pool to give out. Renting weeks at last minute cheap to people in the exchange pool is one thing (II getaway), but giving them out to incent people for their own profit is another.


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## winger (Jan 7, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I don't think they can do that. Deeded weeks are assigned randomly in *many cases* since you bought the season. Weeks in the same season should be treated the same.


*Yes "in many cases".* When I bought my 'resale" from Marriott, I was given a choice of available Platinum weeks to choose from. Of course, I took what I thought was among the most desireable of the bunch - which was mid-summer.


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## Bill4728 (Jan 7, 2010)

There are basically two ways a TS system can switch over to points.

You can assign points to the owner's week/season. This is like what Starwood, Hyatt & Hilton has. The owner still owns their week but if they choose to not use their week, they can use the points from that week to do internal trading within the TS system.  

OR
You can have the owner of the week, give up their deeded TS and exchange it for "points" in a club. The club then owns the week and the club member uses their points to make reservations at any of the resorts which the club owns weeks. (like the Diamond system)  If at any time you break the contract with the club (like not pay your MFs on time) the club can terminate your membership and *you are out* without a TS. Since you gave up your week to join the club, they wouldn't have to foreclose on it, they can just cancel your membership.


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## winger (Jan 7, 2010)

Bill4728 said:


> There are basically two ways a TS system can switch over to points.
> 
> You can assign points to the owner's week/season. This is like what Starwood, Hyatt & Hilton has. The owner still owns their week but if they choose to not use their week, they can use the points from that week to do internal trading within the TS system.
> 
> ...


I can just imagine Marriott choosing option two as the preferred way for existing owners.  Heck, they will 'borrow' the following phrase from a fellow TS Industry comrade: 

Join our new, enhanced vacation ownership program. Give us your deed, get x amount of MRPs (best award program in the world), and don't have to worry about anything else for life, including HOA's, special assessments, etc.  Let us take care of it all for you.  "Ownership, simplified".


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## SueDonJ (Jan 7, 2010)

winger said:


> *Yes "in many cases".* When I bought my 'resale" from Marriott, I was given a choice of available Platinum weeks to choose from. Of course, I took what I thought was among the most desireable of the bunch - which was mid-summer.



Hmmmm.  Wow.  Winger, I misread your question, and thought you were asking about the often-discussed practice of reserving high-demand holiday weeks to get better exchange value.  Now I see that you're asking if the specific week/unit number in the individual deeds will be (can be?) the basis on which MVCI assigns exchange point values in this new system.  That's a whole different new question!

I can't imagine that they can legally ignore all of the document language that refers to those specific deeded week/unit numbers as simply an accounting that prevents the developer from overselling inventory, as well as all of the language that refers to usage of Floating weeks.  I don't think it matters if the weeks were bought developer-direct from Marriott, resale from Marriott, or resale on the external market - all terms and conditions of the Master Deed, Timeshare Declaration and Bylaws transfer with each purchase.

I think the fact that all owners were not given the same opportunity as you to choose from the available inventory must come into play here somehow, also.  Did your rep give you any explanation as to what benefit you might be getting by being able to choose?


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## Dave M (Jan 7, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> I think the fact that all owners were not given the same opportunity as you to choose from the available inventory must come into play here somehow, also.  Did your rep give you any explanation as to what benefit you might be getting by being able to choose?


Under Marriott's floating week system, there are no preferential benefits that go with any specific deeded week within a particular floating season. 

Thus, for example, the rights of an owner of a July 4th week are exactly the same as an owner of a late September week, assuming both weeks fall within the same season. The sole purposes of identifying an ownership week as being for a specific unit in a specific week of the year are (1) to give you a specific piece of real estate and (2) to ensure that Marriott doesn't sell and record two deeds for the same week and unit. 

However, there are many owners who do not understand that there is no difference. The question is asked several times each year on this forum to the effect of, "Do I have priority in reserving the unit and week that shows on my deed?" The answer, of course, is no.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 7, 2010)

There's something else which would prevent MVCI from assigning exchange point value according to the specific week/unit numbers in the deeds.  What about the resorts which utilized Ultimate Occupancy provisions during the initial development phase?  I know it happened at SurfWatch because one of our deeds is numbered to coincide with a Gardenview unit when we actually purchased an Oceanside unit.  Folks on these boards have talked about it happening at OceanWatch, too, and I don't know where else.

The deeds weren't amended when development was completed; the Ultimate Occupancy provisions spelled out in the docs make the usage distinction clear enough.  I certainly won't be happy if MVCI tries to go by the specific week/unit numbers in the deeds because that will mean we'll only be assigned Gardenview point values when what we purchased, what we use, is Oceanside.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 7, 2010)

Dave M said:


> Under Marriott's floating week system, there are no preferential benefits that go with any specific deeded week within a particular floating season.
> 
> Thus, for example, the rights of an owner of a July 4th week are exactly the same as an owner of a late September week, assuming both weeks fall within the same season. The sole purposes of identifying an ownership week as being for a specific unit in a specific week of the year are (1) to give you a specific piece of real estate and (2) to ensure that Marriott doesn't sell and record two deeds for the same week and unit.
> 
> However, there are many owners who do not understand that there is no difference. The question is asked several times each year on this forum to the effect of, "Do I have priority in reserving the unit and week that shows on my deed?" The answer, of course, is no.



Thanks, Dave, that's what I thought.  Of course the document language is more important, more binding, than the fact that all owners didn't get the same opportunity to choose, but both seemed worth mentioning.


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## winger (Jan 7, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Hmmmm.  Wow.  Winger, I misread your question,...




Yes you misread my question...



SueDonJ said:


> ....  Did your rep give you any explanation as to what benefit you might be getting by being able to choose?


  Actually, I asked and he gave me the standard speal (sp?) that the actual deeded week # and unit do not matter, that these two items were only used for accounting.  But I politely insisted "just in case".  I actually used the word "...just in case something were to ever happen, I wanted to ensure I have a week I could actually use."   The salesman agreed that was a reasonable thought and let me change my deed to another one (with a week I liked)


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