# Minimum purchase to enroll a PIC



## Richelle (Jun 16, 2018)

I saw some people post that they were told that you have to purchase a minimum of 105,000 points to enroll a PIC. That might be the case if you buy at a resort. I was told by a person at Wyndham corporate sales (also called telesales), that the minimum is 49,000 points (around $10k). You can enroll up to two fixed weeks with that 49,000 points package.   I enrolled a four bedroom at Williamsburg Plantation that I got on eBay for $28 total.  I mention this, because I don’t want someone overpaying to enroll a PIC or to have to deal with a resort sales person. At least the people at corporate sales have their calls recorded. The resort sales guys won’t let you record the conversation.  Hope this helps some of you.

Update:

Some of you reading this may not know much about PIC. PIC stands for Personal Interval Choice.  Page 359 of the 2014-2015 directory explains more, but this is the nutshell version. If you have a qualifying fixed non-Wyndham week timeshare, you can enroll up to two of them in PIC.  There are two flavors of PIC.  PIC Express which is good for five years.  Then there is PIC Plus which is permanent for as long as you own both the fixed week and points contract.  Neither PIC contracts are transferable on the resale market. You can only enroll a fixed week at the time of a retail purchase. Each fixed week has a fixed point value:


one bedroom 105,000 points


two bedroom 154,000 points


three (or more) bedrooms 254,000 points.


With PIC plus, you can use those points towards VIP status and to make reservations ($89 fee per week IF you use the points for bookings).  With PIC Express, it only counts towards VIP status.  You cannot use those points to make bookings.  To enroll a fixed week into either PIC program, you need to make a point purchase.  The minimum purchase is 49,000 points if you buy through corporate ($10,000).  If you buy through the resorts, they will likely make you buy 105,000 points ($20k-$25k).  When you buy those 49,000 points, you can enroll up to two fixed weeks for a maximum if 508,000 points (two 3 bedrooms).  Keep in mind, you still have to pay the maintenance fees for the fixed week, as well as the Wyndham program fee if .56/1000 w/o Plus partners or .58/1000 w/Plus Partners. My fixed week has a maintenance fee of $849 a year. Add in the program fee and my total fees for that fixed week is $996.32 per year for a three bedroom. That works out to $3.92/1000 points. Cheaper then the majority of points contracts.


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## ronparise (Jun 16, 2018)

Richelle said:


> I saw some people post that they were told that you have to purchase a minimum of 105,000 points to enroll a PIC. That might be the case if you buy at a resort. I was told by a person at Wyndham corporate sales (also called telesales), that the minimum is 49,000 points (around $10k). You can enroll up to two fixed weeks with that 49,000 points package.   I enrolled a four bedroom at Williamsburg Plantation that I got on eBay for $28 total.  I mention this because I don’t want someone overpaying to enroll a PIC or to have to deal with a resort sales person. At least the people at corporate sales have their calls recorded. The resort sales guys won’t let you record the conversation.  Hope this helps some of you.


It used to be about 50000 per week. Maximum of two weeks. 

As I see it you could do 254000 + 254000 + 105000= 613000 points and silver. Cost about $20000

If you already own a small contract or buy another small number of points  ( at least 87000 points)  you would get to gold.  So your total purchase would be about $40000

And if you wanted to be Platinum your total “investment” (for the Wyndham points (500000) would be about $80000. 


As I see it the only two benefits are the guest confirms, and discounts within 60 days of check it.i don’t think you can count on upgrades) If you got 50% discounts on half your reservations you would have the effective use of another 500000 points

Rather then spending $80000 I think I would rather buy 150000 million points on the secondary market the extra 500000 will cost you an additional $3000 or so per year in maintenance fees... so about $25 years to break even and that assume you pay cash. I f you financed it I don’t think you would ever break even

Of course if you wanted a lot more points (I had 30 million) and were able to rent a bunch at a profit, I could justify an investment of $80000 or so


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## Braindead (Jun 16, 2018)

So now it’s possible to
For $2 buy 2 PICs listed in the eBay ad 
Buy 49k or 64k points for $10k when enrolling the 2 PICs

You can get upto 572k developer status points for $10,002.00- Silver VIP
With very low MFs. For $700 MF on 254k with the eBay ad!! Under $3.50 per thousand with program fee included. That’s lower than any Wyndham Plus resort.

Seems pretty silly to me that most here recommend buying resale instead of going that route?


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## Braindead (Jun 16, 2018)

Buy 130k CWA contract to get Gold VIP for about $19k
Now your Gold for under $30,000.00
You would also still have a low average on your MFs


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## Cyrus24 (Jun 16, 2018)

Richelle said:


> I saw some people post that they were told that you have to purchase a minimum of 105,000 points to enroll a PIC. T


To be clear, I did not say that you 'have to purchase 105K' to be able to PIC, nor did I say that it took 2 purchases to get 2 units into the PIC system.  It happens that this is the way I did it.  Most efficient, probably not.  Just as PIC'ing a 2BR was not very efficient.  I've lived and I've learned.  Most important thing I've learned over time, in life, is to not sweat the small stuff.  I'm very happy with my Gold ownership.  If and when I ever decide to bump myself on up to Platinum, you can bet that I'll have a 3BR in my pocket ready to PIC as a replacement for the 2BR I currently have in the Wyndham system.  Replacing the 2BR with a 3BR is an easy 100K points toward the next tier.  Side note, it's very nice for members of the forum to know that you can PIC for as low as a 49K point Developer purchase.  As Braindead shared, PIC'ing low MF dollar resorts purchased off EBay can really drive down your overall $/1000 cost of points and get you to Silver with very dollars spent in the sales office.


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## ronparise (Jun 16, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> To be clear, I did not say that you 'have to purchase 105K' to be able to PIC, nor did I say that it took 2 purchases to get 2 units into the PIC system.  It happens that this is the way I did it.  Most efficient, probably not.  Just as PIC'ing a 2BR was not very efficient.  I've lived and I've learned.  Most important thing I've learned over time, in life, is to not sweat the small stuff.  I'm very happy with my Gold ownership.  If and when I ever decide to bump myself on up to Platinum, you can bet that I'll have a 3BR in my pocket ready to PIC as a replacement for the 2BR I currently have in the Wyndham system.  Replacing the 2BR with a 3BR is an easy 100K points toward the next tier.  Side note, it's very nice for members of the forum to know that you can PIC for as low as a 49K point Developer purchase.  As Braindead shared, PIC'ing low MF dollar resorts purchased off EBay can really drive down your overall $/1000 cost of points and get you to Silver with very dollars spent in the sales office.




paying. Even $ 10k for silver is a waste of money. 

I would still like to confirm that you can pic 2 weeks with just a $10000 purchase. I thiought you needed 50000 points per week


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## Cyrus24 (Jun 16, 2018)

One of the things missing from many pieces of information given by those making posts is timing.  When did Richelle actually PIC the 4BR at the time of a 49,000 point phone purchase?  If that happened in 2017/2018, well this is very current and very useful information. We all know that things change.  What someone could do over the phone in 2008 might not work in 2018.  As well, something that someone did in March 2018 might not work in July 2018.


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## Arb (Jun 16, 2018)

Regarding PIC weeks -- is it possible to replace a 2br PIC week with a 3br PIC week?


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## Cyrus24 (Jun 16, 2018)

I would like to know that, as well.  If someone actually did that, I'd like to know when and how much of a Developer Purchase was involved.  I may want to do that someday.


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## Braindead (Jun 16, 2018)

Whatever answer you get from Wyndham better be signed.
Just guessing you would be the same as enrolling a new PIC. Might be able to do it all at ounce with a new purchase. But knowing Wyndham you would probably have to drop the 2bdr out for a few months or they would drop the 3bdr instead and you would be back where you started


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## Richelle (Jun 16, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> To be clear, I did not say that you 'have to purchase 105K' to be able to PIC, nor did I say that it took 2 purchases to get 2 units into the PIC system.  It happens that this is the way I did it.  Most efficient, probably not.  Just as PIC'ing a 2BR was not very efficient.  I've lived and I've learned.  Most important thing I've learned over time, in life, is to not sweat the small stuff.  I'm very happy with my Gold ownership.  If and when I ever decide to bump myself on up to Platinum, you can bet that I'll have a 3BR in my pocket ready to PIC as a replacement for the 2BR I currently have in the Wyndham system.  Replacing the 2BR with a 3BR is an easy 100K points toward the next tier.  Side note, it's very nice for members of the forum to know that you can PIC for as low as a 49K point Developer purchase.  As Braindead shared, PIC'ing low MF dollar resorts purchased off EBay can really drive down your overall $/1000 cost of points and get you to Silver with very dollars spent in the sales office.



I probably should have included that I saw it here and on the Facebook groups. I didn’t mean to imply you were the only one who said it.  There was more then one person who mentioned it here, as well as the Facebook groups.


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## Richelle (Jun 16, 2018)

ronparise said:


> paying. Even $ 10k for silver is a waste of money.
> 
> I would still like to confirm that you can pic 2 weeks with just a $10000 purchase. I thiought you needed 50000 points per week


 
One purchase, two PICs. Not $10k each. So for $10k you can have a total of 557k points that are eligible for VIP if you enroll (2) three bedrooms and buy 49,000 points. That would get you silver. 

To be clear for those that do not already know, it has to be a “qualifying” week . Talk with a corporate sales person to verify it’s eligible before buying anything on eBay. RCI Gold crowns are the best options for multiple reasons.


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## Richelle (Jun 16, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> One of the things missing from many pieces of information given by those making posts is timing.  When did Richelle actually PIC the 4BR at the time of a 49,000 point phone purchase?  If that happened in 2017/2018, well this is very current and very useful information. We all know that things change.  What someone could do over the phone in 2008 might not work in 2018.  As well, something that someone did in March 2018 might not work in July 2018.




Yes. Did it a few weeks ago.


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## Richelle (Jun 16, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> I would like to know that, as well.  If someone actually did that, I'd like to know when and how much of a Developer Purchase was involved.  I may want to do that someday.



There are a couple people I know of who are trying to go straight to Gold with PIC. I did that, but I didn’t have to buy a lot of points to make that happen because I made a retail purchase back in 2008. I can give you the name of my sales person but the only thing she can do is confirm it. She cannot try to sell you anything unless you specifically ask for her and you have to do that through email. She can at least confirm that you can enroll a PIC with 49,000 point purchase.


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## Richelle (Jun 16, 2018)

Braindead said:


> Whatever answer you get from Wyndham better be signed.
> Just guessing you would be the same as enrolling a new PIC. Might be able to do it all at ounce with a new purchase. But knowing Wyndham you would probably have to drop the 2bdr out for a few months or they would drop the 3bdr instead and you would be back where you started


 

The telesales rep posted in Facebook that the minimum was 49k points. Is that in writing? Lol


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## Richelle (Jun 16, 2018)

Arb said:


> Regarding PIC weeks -- is it possible to replace a 2br PIC week with a 3br PIC week?


 

Yep. There is a form you fill out for each week. We had a two bedroom lock out split between the two weeks. We consolidated to one and added the four bedroom.


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## Cyrus24 (Jun 16, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Yep. There is a form you fill out for each week. We had a two bedroom lock out split between the two weeks. We consolidated to one and added the four bedroom.


Excellent information.  And very current.  THANK YOU.  I'm not in the market, today, but, I will remember this thread.


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## Richelle (Jun 16, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> Excellent information.  And very current.  THANK YOU.  I'm not in the market, today, but, I will remember this thread.



No problem. I swore I would never buy more points from Wyndham, but when I learned that I could use a resale fixed week and only buy 49,000 points to enroll it, I figured I’d jump on it before they changed their mind. Lol


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## Braindead (Jun 17, 2018)

Richelle said:


> The telesales rep posted in Facebook that the minimum was 49k points. Is that in writing? Lol


I was talking about swapping out a 2bdr for a new 3bdr PIC


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## Avislo (Jun 17, 2018)

Did not know  that a swap of a PIC could be done.  With or without a developer purchase.  A PIC can be dropped.  I to would be interested to know if a PIC could be changed to a different unit without a additional purchase.


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## Jan M. (Jun 17, 2018)

Avislo said:


> Did not know  that a swap of a PIC could be done.  With or without a developer purchase.  A PIC can be dropped.  I to would be interested to know if a PIC could be changed to a different unit without a additional purchase.



It is my understanding that to add a different PIC would require an additional purchase. When the resort that was our PIC sold I was told that we couldn't replace it with a different one.


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## Richelle (Jun 17, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> It is my understanding that to add a different PIC would require an additional purchase. When the resort that was our PIC sold I was told that we couldn't replace it with a different one.


 
I might have misunderstood your question earlier.  I believe The majority of PIC changes can only be done with a new purchase.  However, when I enrolled the first fixed into PIC, they made it a one bedroom when it was supposed to be a two bedroom lockout. The sales guy said I would have to buy more points to get it fixed.  Owner Care fixed it for free.  I would imagine in Your case, since it was not their error, you would have to buy more points to enroll it.  I know someone told me you can negotiate with telesales like you do the resorts.  They may have a contract they are looking to dump cheaper then $10k. Don’t hold me to this but I think someone got a 64,000 contract at Bentley Brook for $8k. Bentley brook has high MF but if it’s only 64,000, it’s not going to break the bank and would get you the new PIC enrolled.  If you have the cash to spend, and it’s important to you, it might be worth a call.  Before you do though,  call Owner Care directly to see if thee is anything that can be done for free.  If you already called once, try one more time.  You don’t always get the same answer.  I’ll see if I can find anything out as well.


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## Avislo (Jun 17, 2018)

Thanks all for the information.


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## Braindead (Jun 17, 2018)

I just wonder how long the policy of being able to enroll 2 PICs with a 49k point purchase has been in effect.
Is it new and shows that sales have dropped off with the new rules and the disaster called Voyager ?
Looks like Wyndham is hungry for sales to me especially from current owners if its only offered from corporate sales


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## Richelle (Jun 17, 2018)

Braindead said:


> I just wonder how long the policy of being able to enroll 2 PICs with a 49k point purchase has been in effect.
> Is it new and shows that sales have dropped off with the new rules and the disaster called Voyager ?
> Looks like Wyndham is hungry for sales to me especially from current owners if its only offered from corporate sales




Everytime I have gone to an update, there is always a new minimum, as in the minimum number of points they were “allowed” to sell. Never was that minimum as low as 49,000 points. I never thought to ask a corporate sales person what the minimum was to enroll a PIC. I would imagine there is not a ton of commission on 49,000 points, so that might be why it’s not advertised much. Might also be why PIC is not brought up by the sales people when trying to sell you more points. If you can get 254k points from something you bought off eBay for $28, why spend $34k for those points when you only need to spend $10k to get them. A car salesman is going to try and sell you the car that gets him the most commission. PIC and 49,000 points doesn’t get them much.  I think the minimum from corporate has always been lower then resorts, but whether or not it’s always been 49,000, I’m not sure. It is possible they lowered it a bit to entice more people, but I did see a 28,000 contract on eBay one time. I thought that was kind of a useless contract, but now I’m thinking it might have been originally purchased to enroll a PiC.


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## Braindead (Jun 17, 2018)

ronparise said:


> paying. Even $ 10k for silver is a waste of money.


I usually agree with you Ron but I don’t on this one.

Low MF resale contracts have been bringing $10 per thousand or higher.

If you can get over 550k developer status points for under $20 per thousand with low MFs.
I would recommend paying the additional cost. Silver just happens to come along with it and about all of us have probably made reservations that would get the Silver discount and or upgrade.

Then in the future if you want to achieve higher VIP and can handle it financially your well on your way.

As Cyrus24 and I have posted being Gold for $30k to $35k was worth it to us and have no regrets


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## Avislo (Jun 17, 2018)

Within the last week or so a 49,000 contract could be gotten through Old Town Alexandria.  Do not know if it came with any PIC rights.


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## Avislo (Jun 17, 2018)

Maybe someone going to the Old Town Alexandria meeting could go ask about the availability of this and it may not even take a sales meeting to get the information.


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## Braindead (Jun 18, 2018)

Richelle said:


> I saw some people post that they were told that you have to purchase a minimum of 105,000 points to enroll a PIC. That might be the case if you buy at a resort. I was told by a person at Wyndham corporate sales (also called telesales), that the minimum is 49,000 points (around $10k). You can enroll up to two fixed weeks with that 49,000 points package.   I enrolled a four bedroom at Williamsburg Plantation that I got on eBay for $28 total.  I mention this, because I don’t want someone overpaying to enroll a PIC or to have to deal with a resort sales person. At least the people at corporate sales have their calls recorded. The resort sales guys won’t let you record the conversation.  Hope this helps some of you.
> 
> Update:
> 
> ...


Would you please post the quote you had on the 64k CWA contract.
Your price on the 49k CWA contract is $10,000.00 thats over $200 per 1k points that’s awfully high.
I’m sure I could buy the 64k contract and enroll the PICs for around $10,000.00
You say about the same price for both contracts.

I don’t understand why you keep recommending the 49k in all the threads if an owner can get 64k for about the same net purchase price in dollars.
Why not recommend buying the 64k contract? Free 15k developer points


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## Richelle (Jun 18, 2018)

Braindead said:


> Would you please post the quote you had on the 64k CWA contract.
> Your price on the 49k CWA contract is $10,000.00 thats over $200 per 1k points that’s awfully high.
> I’m sure I could buy the 64k contract and enroll the PICs for around $10,000.00
> You say about the same price for both contracts.
> ...



Good points. The 64,000 contract I was referring to was Bentley Brook. That has higher fees so it’s harder to sell, so they sell it less then CWA which is more popular. Also, the fewer points you buy, the higher the price per 1,000. The $10k mark is $204 per 1,000 points for a 49,000 point contract.  I was offered a 105,000 point CWA contract for $16,800. That’s $160 per 1,000 points. The more you buy, the cheaper it is. The resorts with higher fees cost less then the more popular options such as CWA, Bonnet, National Harbor, etc.  

Yes, it doesn’t make sense to spend $10k on a 49,000 point contract when you can get 64,000 for the same price except, if you want to step your way up to VIP and want all your points with a specific resort or CWA. It makes sense to go for the high MF contract for more points, if you don’t plan on buying more points. The savings would be negligible for that small amount of points.


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## Richelle (Jun 18, 2018)

Braindead said:


> Would you please post the quote you had on the 64k CWA contract.
> Your price on the 49k CWA contract is $10,000.00 thats over $200 per 1k points that’s awfully high.
> I’m sure I could buy the 64k contract and enroll the PICs for around $10,000.00
> You say about the same price for both contracts.
> ...




Would you like it better if I said “you could get 49,000 to 64,000 points for around $10k”

Edit: I was just told the price went up, but the caveat is that the new price is a base price. You can likely negotiate it down depending on what you ask for. The harder to dump contracts will likely go for lower. The new price is $12,900.  I think you were right about enticing owners, but they were doing it by price and not minimum # of points.


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## Braindead (Jun 18, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Would you like it better if I said “you could get 49,000 to 64,000 points for around $10k”
> 
> Edit: I was just told the price went up, but the caveat is that the new price is a base price. You can likely negotiate it down depending on what you ask for. The harder to dump contracts will likely go for lower. The new price is $12,900.


I believe you stated the telesales lady said you could get the 64k contract for about the same price.
If I’m offered 49k or 64k CWA for $10,000 and enroll 2 PICs
I would take the 64k every time and really don’t understand why anybody wouldn’t take the 15k free points


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## Richelle (Jun 18, 2018)

Braindead said:


> I believe you stated the telesales lady said you could get the 64k contract for about the same price.
> If I’m offered 49k or 64k CWA for $10,000 and enroll 2 PICs
> I would take the 64k every time and really don’t understand why anybody wouldn’t take the 15k free points




If that was going to be my one and only points purchase or I already had points at a low fee resort sure. It wouldn’t make much of a difference  If I was looking to slowly building up my points by paying cash for small purchases, I’d pay a little extra for the lower Mf. A “little” being the key word. Otherwise I’d be building up my points with high Mf contracts.   I think it’s a matter of preference really. I think most would go for the most points option if MF were not an issue for them.


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## raygo123 (Jun 18, 2018)

It only makes sense now with the new rules to do the PIC program if you already own qualifying resorts for life time PIC.  In my case my PIC is in Mexico, i pay MFs of $800 every 10 years.

Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk


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## ronparise (Jun 18, 2018)

Braindead said:


> I usually agree with you Ron but I don’t on this one.
> 
> Low MF resale contracts have been bringing $10 per thousand or higher.
> 
> ...




That you don’t have regrets is not enough to convince me that it makes sense

I bought a $55000 boat. It was a stupid  decision from a dollars and cents (or sense point of view, but I have no regrets.

Here’s my thinking on a silver account the only real benefit is the 25% discount

Two weeks 3 bedroom weeks  PICed with a 49000 point purchase the owner would end up with a silver account with a total 557000 points.  Let’s assume this owner can get half of his reservations inside the discount window. He effectively has the use of about 625000 points

Now let’s consider the above owners best friend. He is a wyndham resale points owner that has a 500000 point account. He wants to make the same reservations as his friend so he needs to add an additional 126000 points contract to what he owns.  He finds a wyndham owner on the tug bargain deals forum who is giving away a contract of this size

He will pay about $500 closing and transfer fees and his mf will increase about $300 a year more than his friend

So the one guy spends $10000 up front and his fees  go up about $300 a year and the second guy spends $500 up front and his fees go up $600 a year. 

10000/600 = 16 years to break even

You might argue  that the first guy owns 3 bedroom weeks with a low mf ok I’ll grant you that let’s assume 2 weeks at $900 a year add the $89 annual fees and we are at $2000 mf. And let’s assume the second guy started with 500000 points at $6/1000 or $3000 mf. A difference of $1000 a year

I presume my guy will invest 10000 in a stock index fund and his account will grow at the rate of 10% a year earning back that $1000 every year


Bottom line silver is worthless


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## Cyrus24 (Jun 18, 2018)

ronparise said:


> Bottom line silver is worthless


Worth/Value is always in the eye of the beholder.  The 25% discount is not near as important to me as is the later date for doing a Points Deposit.  I can't put a price on having that later date as an option.  Opens up all kinds of late year travel options that just weren't available with a March deposit date.


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## Richelle (Jun 18, 2018)

So


ronparise said:


> That you don’t have regrets is not enough to convince me that it makes sense
> 
> I bought a $55000 boat. It was a stupid  decision from a dollars and sense point of view, but I have no regrets.
> 
> ...


 
if I followed your logic correctly, assuming the guy did invest that $10k into a 10% return stock index fund, both end up with the same after the first 10 years. The only exception being the Silver guy probably got some upgrades, so if we are playing even Stephens we should account if the extra points for the bigger room the resale guy has to pay. After 10 years, the guy with the stock fund will continue earning that $1k a year provided he doesn’t remove his investment from the stock fund.  Here is my only issue with that. You’re assuming they would actually put that money into an investment and that there is actually a 10% return.  When you bought that boat, did you consider putting that money into a stock index rather then buying a boat?  I’m guessing you went with the boat because at the time, the entertainment value was worth more to you then earning money by investing it. We could all stick that money in an investment and let it continue to grow. While we are at it, let’s just skip the timeshares altogether and put the money we’d be paying in Mf into the stock fund as well. No one NEEDS timeshares. No one NEEDS boats. We get them for the entertainment value. Now, from a logic perspective, you are right that the responsible thing to do would be to invest that money. When you buy a car, do you buy the cheapest beater you can to get you from point A to Point B, and invest the savings into a stock index fund?  No. Likely you chose a car you like to drive, and has some features you want but don’t need.

My point is, yes, we could stick all our money in a stock index and only buy the absolute minimum we need to survive. But what is the point of doing that, for the next 50 years, assuming you live that long?  In your case, the two are dead even for ten years, provided there is no economic downturn that drags that out.  During that time, the Silver guy is getting upgrades on at least some of his reservations. He also has unlimited housekeeping credits so he can take mini vacations without having to worry about using them up. At $8 per 1,000 that can add up.  Then you have the extended points deposit deadline that allows you more time to decide if you are going to use or move your points. He also continues to have Silver after that 10 year mark. I don’t disagree with you that Silver is not worth much, but I think in this particular scenario, it’s worth at least that much.


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## skotrla (Jun 18, 2018)

ronparise said:


> That you don’t have regrets is not enough to convince me that it makes sense
> 
> I bought a $55000 boat. It was a stupid  decision from a dollars and sense point of view, but I have no regrets.
> 
> ...



Generally agree, but a couple of points to consider - 

1) The extra 4 guests certificates are worth $400/year - not everyone will use these, but still something to consider

2) In the last 16 years, S&P 500 has gone up about 7% per year

If you combine these together, that's $700/year in benefits the Silver VIP owner gets, reducing the break even as low as 8 years, so generally still not worth it, but not quite as bad.

-Scott


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## capital city (Jun 18, 2018)

I think a more accurate comparison would be a electric car vs a gas car not whether you buy a nice car vs a beater. If the same electric car saves you $500 year in gas but cost 5k more upfront. It will take 10 years straight up to break even. If you invest that 5k and get 10% you will never break even. But how much is it worth to you to save the environment?


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## Cyrus24 (Jun 18, 2018)

I drove a 'clean' diesel VW until they determined that they were not really 'clean'.  I paid the premium and thought I was helping the environment!!!  At the end of the day, I wasn't helping the environment but made out like a bandit with the settlement.  I was actually a winner on that new car purchase.

My point.  We all make decisions for our own reasons.  Some are winners, some are losers and only the individual making the decision may do the categorization.


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## ronparise (Jun 18, 2018)

skotrla said:


> Generally agree, but a couple of points to consider -
> 
> 1) The extra 4 guests certificates are worth $400/year - not everyone will use these, but still something to consider
> 
> ...




Even if I put the $10000 under my mattress and it dosent appreciate at all, I still have it and my timeshares 10 years later. You only have your timeshares


----------



## skotrla (Jun 18, 2018)

Depending on the assumptions you make, you can get to break even as early as Y5 - with the default assumptions listed, the resale purchaser is paying an extra $40K over 20 years.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_4coq6UCfqPVyE1A3bOA9zRSgQEi-I1m

Change: Break Even Year, Extra money paid by resale buyer 

Default: Y6, $41K
Investment Return = 10%: Y6, $40K
Annual Points Needed = 1000K: Y5, $51K
60-day Bookings = 25%: Y7, $33K
Annual Maintenance Increase = 3%: Y6, $33K
Annual Guest Fees Used = 1: Y7, $33K

-Scott


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## skotrla (Jun 18, 2018)

ronparise said:


> Even if I put the $10000 under my mattress and it dosent appreciate at all, I still have it and my timeshares 10 years later. You only have your timeshares



The investment income on the $10K was supposed to pay the maintenance delta - if you are paying an extra $1K per year on maintenance, the $10K will be gone in 10 years.

-Scott


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## skotrla (Jun 18, 2018)

skotrla said:


> Depending on the assumptions you make, you can get to break even as early as Y5 - with the default assumptions listed, the resale purchaser is paying an extra $40K over 20 years.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_4coq6UCfqPVyE1A3bOA9zRSgQEi-I1m
> 
> ...



Left off the biggest sensitivity...

Resale Initial Cost $8/1K, Resale Annual Cost $5/1K: Y6, $24K
Resale Initial Cost $12/1K, Resale Annual Cost $4/1K: Y9, $6K

In any long term analysis, maintenance cost dominates.

-Scott


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## ronparise (Jun 18, 2018)

I was a silver owner from my first day owning Wyndham and it came with a resale purchase.  I never found any value with it.. Gold is a different story, but even then, if I have a choice between spending money up front, or spending a little more each month... Im holding on to bank account

You guys see it differently, thats great.....Wyndham wins


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## Marathoner (Jun 18, 2018)

ronparise said:


> I was a silver owner from my first day owning Wyndham and it came with a resale purchase.  I never found any value with it.. Gold is a different story, but even then, if I have a choice between spending money up front, or spending a little more each month... Im holding on to bank account
> 
> You guys see it differently, thats great.....Wyndham wins


Understand. But you were platinum and you've definitely benefited from that elite status, right? 

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## Avislo (Jun 18, 2018)

He says he bought a boat off of profits from his Wyndham activity.


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## Cyrus24 (Jun 18, 2018)

He developed a pretty solid business model, operating on loop holes.  Wyndham shut it down.  Wyndham wins!!!  I do wish they'd found a better way of eliminating Point Stripping than doing away with the Credit Pool.  That hurt all of us who actually used our points for personal enjoyment.


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## Richelle (Jun 18, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> He developed a pretty solid business model, operating on loop holes.  Wyndham shut it down.  Wyndham wins!!!  I do wish they'd found a better way of eliminating Point Stripping than doing away with the Credit Pool.  That hurt all of us who actually used our points for personal enjoyment.




Wyndham may have won in the end but he still made money from it.


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## ronparise (Jun 19, 2018)

Marathoner said:


> Understand. But you were platinum and you've definitely benefited from that elite status, right?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk



Yes I was Platinum, but I did it for $6000 down and $150 a month and even that was too much except for three things that cant be done anymore


Platinum is much more valuable than Silver. 30 guest confirms and unlimited transactions made a big difference, but the big deal was that I learned from tuggers was that you could become Platinum with just a 63000 point direct purchase, ($12000)But even $12000 was too much, Ultimately I figured out how to get VIP with all resale contracts.    You only needed 1 million VIP eligible points. You could then add up to a total of 40 contracts per account and all the points got the discount  But even that didnt help much because the reservations I got within 60 days of check in were not good rentals.. What made my accounts profitable was learning the cancel/rebook/upgrade trick... Everything could be discounted and you cant do that any more But that aint all........

There were three features of a wyndam ownership that I used to make the system work for me (some might call them loopholes 1) cheap (free) VIP accounts 2) the cancel rebook trick and  3)  the credit pool

The problem was that I got too big, Using the credit pool. I was using 3 years of points in my first year of ownership but just breaking even in future years.. I had to grow or die, and I didnt have an exit strategy .. I had to dump some of my contracts every year.. I needed a buyer.....and I didnt have one, until I did

In  2014,  I sold off 20 million points (I kept 10) and bought another 20 million, did it again in 2015 and was on my way to doing it yet again in 2016. and then my world fell apart.. Wyndham froze my accounts (and a lot of others) It wasnt rentals that brought me down. wyndham really doesnt have a problem with rentals (They do on the scale I was doing it, but not generally) . Their  problem was that I had more reservations in my account than my ownership could justify. I had 90 million points in reservations in a 10 million point account. and they couldnt figure out how that could happen..... so I told them.  I used the credit pool to put 3 years of points into reservations, then I sold the underlying contracts.. 

I still remember the  exact words I used to tell their lawyer what had happened.   "I owned 30 million points at the beginning of the year, I used the credit pool to put 90 million points in reservations, and then I sold contracts with a face value of 20 million points, that were now stripped of points.....(pause for effect)  and the ironic thing is;  You bought them"   "Oh and I have 10 million more points under contract to buy. They will settle by the end of the year. I intend  to strip them and sell those contracts to you too"

Thats what pissed them off. Not the rentals, not stripping contracts, not even that I sold off the stripped contracts....What pissed them off was that they were the ones that bought the stripped contracts. 

I may be taking more credit than I deserve, but I think you can thank me (and the other guys that were doing what I did) for the auto upgrade feature that brought and end to the cancel/rebook/uppgrade trick and you can thank me for the end of the credit pool

I didnt have a business, I had a hustle, that worked for a while and then it didnt... not for me, or anyone else..


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## Lisa P (Jun 19, 2018)

I finally understand.    Have wondered... so thanks Ron.  Very interesting.  (Made me chuckle too.)


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## paxsarah (Jun 19, 2018)

ronparise said:


> Thats what pissed them off. Not the rentals, not stripping contracts, not even that I sold off the stripped contracts....What pissed them off was that they were the ones that bought the stripped contracts.


LOL! We're sometimes critical here of people who buy Wyndham points without really knowing what they're buying, but it's kind of the ultimate irony that Wyndham itself was buying those contracts without really understanding their own system or why those contracts were being offered back to the mother ship.


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## Marathoner (Jun 19, 2018)

ronparise said:


> I didnt have a business, I had a hustle, that worked for a while and then it didnt... not for me, or anyone else..



You shouldn't be too critical of yourself - you specialized in New Orleans event week rentals (Mardi Gras, Jazz fest, etc).

This would have been profitable whether you were credit pooling or not, right? 

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## skotrla (Jun 19, 2018)

ronparise said:


> Yes I was Platinum, but I did it for $6000 down and $150 a month and even that was too much except for three things that cant be done anymore
> 
> 
> Platinum is much more valuable than Silver. 30 guest confirms and unlimited transactions made a big difference, but the big deal was that I learned from tuggers was that you could become Platinum with just a 63000 point direct purchase, ($12000)But even $12000 was too much, Ultimately I figured out how to get VIP with all resale contracts.    You only needed 1 million VIP eligible points. You could then add up to a total of 40 contracts per account and all the points got the discount  But even that didnt help much because the reservations I got within 60 days of check in were not good rentals.. What made my accounts profitable was learning the cancel/rebook/upgrade trick... Everything could be discounted and you cant do that any more But that aint all........



Excellent post - you should write a book!

-Scott


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## Richelle (Jun 19, 2018)

Marathoner said:


> You shouldn't be too critical of yourself - you specialized in New Orleans event week rentals (Mardi Gras, Jazz fest, etc).
> 
> This would have been profitable whether you were credit pooling or not, right?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


 

Probably less profitable because he would have booked less rooms, but you are correct that it would have been profitable still.


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## ronparise (Jun 19, 2018)

skotrla said:


> Excellent post - you should write a book!
> 
> -Scott




I’ve thought about that but I have to be careful but to violate the NDA I signed


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## ronparise (Jun 19, 2018)

Marathoner said:


> You shouldn't be too critical of yourself - you specialized in New Orleans event week rentals (Mardi Gras, Jazz fest, etc).
> 
> This would have been profitable whether you were credit pooling or not, right?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk



Exactly right if I had not done the cancel and rebook and I had not borrowed future years points with the credit pool I still could have made reservations and rented them.  And yes I would have said I had a small rental business. But  it would have been very small and not very profitable. Consider this; a one bedroom  at la Belle Maison is 121000 points for 4 day weekend (I think I remember that correctly) at $5/1000 points plus a guest confirm that’s $700. I was renting these weekends for $1200; so a $500 profit

In my best year I was able to get 17 Mardi Gras reservations at La Belle Maison so that year I got a $8500 profit There are other good weekends in New Orleans and you can get the reservations at  10 months but they are not nearly as profitable . Essence Music Fest for example I rented the 4 day weekend for $600 so I would lose $100 on each reservation


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## bobbyoc23 (Jun 19, 2018)

paxsarah said:


> LOL! We're sometimes critical here of people who buy Wyndham points without really knowing what they're buying, but it's kind of the ultimate irony that Wyndham itself was buying those contracts without really understanding their own system or why those contracts were being offered back to the mother ship.



But they must have been able to find out pretty easily before accepting them, right? Or did they not check the estoppel? And once they got the stripped contracts in their possession they wouldn’t have been able to sell them to new prospects for the next couple years, right? They can’t just reload them, that would put more points into the system than are supposed to be. I’m glad it worked out for you Ron. Maybe Wyndham should have offered to hire you as their in-house subject matter expert... clearly they don’t understand their own product


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## Jimag (Jun 20, 2018)

Richelle said:


> I saw some people post that they were told that you have to purchase a minimum of 105,000 points to enroll a PIC. That might be the case if you buy at a resort. I was told by a person at Wyndham corporate sales (also called telesales), that the minimum is 49,000 points (around $10k). You can enroll up to two fixed weeks with that 49,000 points package.   I enrolled a four bedroom at Williamsburg Plantation that I got on eBay for $28 total.  I mention this, because I don’t want someone overpaying to enroll a PIC or to have to deal with a resort sales person. At least the people at corporate sales have their calls recorded. The resort sales guys won’t let you record the conversation.  Hope this helps some of you.
> 
> Update:
> 
> ...



Reading through this thread (as of 11:30 p.m., 6/19) has been interesting and informative.  I hate to admit, however, that I am still a bit confused about the PIC Plus Program.  Actually I am also confused by the PIC Express Program, primarily because I can't see why anyone would choose PIC Express over PIC Plus, but I will leave that question for another time.  With regard to the PIC Plus Program, I compared the Plus program requirements set forth in the Club Wyndham Plus Member's Directory 2014-15 with the program requirements set forth in the 2018-19 version of the Directory.  The following passage is an excerpt from pages 292-293 of 2018-2019 Directory (the underlined and bracketed language in the passage appeared in the Club Wyndham Plus Member’s Directory 2014-2015 and has been struck from the latest version of the requirements).

*PIC Program*

*Personal Interval Choice (PIC) Plus Program*

*Eligibility Requirements:*  Membership in the PIC _Plus_ Program is available with a new vacation ownership purchase from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or to CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Members who pay the PIC _Plus_ Membership Enrollment Fee.  [Membership is limited to five consecutive years for those who pay the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee.]  In order to be eligible, non-Wyndham week(s) must be: (1) affiliated with RCI and (2) not currently participating in a points-based program, including RCI Points.  Members will be responsible for maintenance fees on their non-Wyndham week(s).  [Exchanges must be made at least 9 months prior to the check-in date of the non-Wyndham week(s).  A maximum of two non-Wyndham weeks may be enrolled in the PIC Plus program at the time of enrollment in the PIC Plus program.  Please refer to the Club Wyndham Plus Member's Directory for additional terms and conditions.]​The revised version appears to have made only one substantive change, but it is an important one.  Previously, membership in the PIC Plus program was limited to five consecutive years for those folks who elected to pay a PIC Plus membership enrollment fee instead of making a new purchase of Wyndham direct points.  It appears the five year membership limitation for those electing to pay the PIC Plus program enrollment fee as opposed to making a new purchase has been removed in the new rules.  This could be significant.  The other language deleted from the previous version of the requirements does not appear to make substantive changes to the program. 

Does anyone know the amount of the PIC Plus enrollment fee?  I'm fairly certain the enrollment fee is distinct from the annual $89 exchange fee for each PICed week.  The exchange fee is an annual fee, correct?

Both versions of the Member's Directory advise: "More information is available by visiting a Member Services representative at your nearest Club Wyndham resort."  Can anyone suggest what corporate office to contact on PIC matters?  Dealing with a resort sales representative may not be the best approach.


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## BibbityBoppity (Jun 20, 2018)

ronparise said:


> It used to be about 50000 per week. Maximum of two weeks.
> 
> As I see it you could do 254000 + 254000 + 105000= 613000 points and silver. Cost about $20000
> 
> ...




It’s 49,000 new points to enroll up to 2 PIC Plus/Express properties.


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## Richelle (Jun 20, 2018)

Jimag said:


> Reading through this thread (as of 11:30 p.m., 6/19) has been interesting and informative.  I hate to admit, however, that I am still a bit confused about the PIC Plus Program.  Actually I am also confused by the PIC Express Program, primarily because I can't see why anyone would choose PIC Express over PIC Plus, but I will leave that question for another time.  With regard to the PIC Plus Program, I compared the Plus program requirements set forth in the Club Wyndham Plus Member's Directory 2014-15 with the program requirements set forth in the 2018-19 version of the Directory.  The following passage is an excerpt from pages 292-293 of 2018-2019 Directory (the underlined and bracketed language in the passage appeared in the Club Wyndham Plus Member’s Directory 2014-2015 and has been struck from the latest version of the requirements).
> 
> *PIC Program*
> 
> ...




PIC Plus enrollment fee is $2,395. Based on the language in both, it sounds like you can choose to pay the enrollment fee instead of making a new purchase, but everyone is saying you have to make a new purchase. No one can tell me why it says “Or”. My telesales rep checked with her PIC guy and owner care. Both said you have to make a new purchase. 

The only reason I can see someone using PIC Express is if they have a points based membership with RCI. Points based is not eligible for PIC Plus but you can use it for PIC Express. If they have a fixed week they enroll into PIC Express it might be because for some reason they cannot exchange it like they do for the ones in PIC Plus. Or the sales guy doesn’t know what he is doing. 

 The number for corporate sales is‭ (800) 786-6764‬. I have a rep I use and I can provide a direct email if you would prefer.


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## Jimag (Jun 20, 2018)

Richelle said:


> PIC Plus enrollment fee is $2,395. Based on the language in both, it sounds like you can choose to pay the enrollment fee instead of making a new purchase, but everyone is saying you have to make a new purchase. No one can tell me why it says “Or”. My telesales rep checked with her PIC guy and owner care. Both said you have to make a new purchase.
> 
> The only reason I can see someone using PIC Express is if they have a points based membership with RCI. Points based is not eligible for PIC Plus but you can use it for PIC Express. If they have a fixed week they enroll into PIC Express it might be because for some reason they cannot exchange it like they do for the ones in PIC Plus. Or the sales guy doesn’t know what he is doing.
> 
> The number for corporate sales is‭ (800) 786-6764‬. I have a rep I use and I can provide a direct email if you would prefer.


Wow. The deleted language in the previous version of the Directory -- "Membership is limited to five consecutive years for those who pay the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee." -- wouldn't have made sense unless paying the enrollment fee was an alternative to a new purchase of points.  

What was up with that five-year period limitation on membership?  If everyone paid the membership fee and made a new purchase of points, what did that language mean?

If the "or" is a typo in both versions of the Directory, does that mean everyone needs to make a new purchase and pay the enrollment fee of $2,395?

Maybe the answer is that the Directory is not an authoritative document and the Wyndham documents required to enroll a PIC clarify these points.  Do you know of any other authoritative source setting forth PIC requirements or is the program what Wyndham says it is when you seek to make an enrollment?


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## Richelle (Jun 20, 2018)

Jimag said:


> Wow. The deleted language in the previous version of the Directory -- "Membership is limited to five consecutive years for those who pay the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee." -- wouldn't have made sense unless paying the enrollment fee was an alternative to a new purchase of points.
> 
> What was up with that five-year period limitation on membership?  If everyone paid the membership fee and made a new purchase of points, what did that language mean?
> 
> ...



Other then the PIC enrollment form, I have not seen anything. Even the PIC enrollment form makes it sound like you can choose to pay the fee instead of buying new points.


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## Jimag (Jun 20, 2018)

Richelle said:


> PIC Plus enrollment fee is $2,395. Based on the language in both, it sounds like you can choose to pay the enrollment fee instead of making a new purchase, but everyone is saying you have to make a new purchase. No one can tell me why it says “Or”. My telesales rep checked with her PIC guy and owner care. Both said you have to make a new purchase.
> 
> The only reason I can see someone using PIC Express is if they have a points based membership with RCI. Points based is not eligible for PIC Plus but you can use it for PIC Express. If they have a fixed week they enroll into PIC Express it might be because for some reason they cannot exchange it like they do for the ones in PIC Plus. Or the sales guy doesn’t know what he is doing.
> 
> The number for corporate sales is‭ (800) 786-6764‬. I have a rep I use and I can provide a direct email if you would prefer.


Thanks for the corporate sales number.  I would like the name and e-mail of a reliable rep, if you don't mind providing it.  Thanks again.


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## Richelle (Jun 20, 2018)

Jimag said:


> Thanks for the corporate sales number.  I would like the name and e-mail of a reliable rep, if you don't mind providing it.  Thanks again.


Sent you a PM. I don’t like making her name public without her permission. I should probably ask if it’s ok to make it public.


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## Jimag (Jun 20, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Other then the PIC enrollment form, I have not seen anything. Even the PIC enrollment form makes it sound like you can choose to pay the fee instead of buying new points.


Does everyone making a PIC enrollment need to pay the PIC membership fee?  If so, that would really make the language in both the Directory and the PIC Application incongruous.


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## Richelle (Jun 20, 2018)

Jimag said:


> Does everyone making a PIC enrollment need to pay the PIC membership fee?  If so, that would really make the language in both the Directory and the PIC Application incongruous.


No, the fee is waived if you buy more points.


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## Jimag (Jun 20, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Sent you a PM. I don’t like making her name public without her permission. I should probably ask if it’s ok to make it publ





Richelle said:


> No, the fee is waived if you buy more points.


This just keeps getting to be more and more of a puzzle.  Who pays the fee and why, if it's not an alternative to a new purchase?  This is just a rhetorical question, as I know you already said you don't have an answer.


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## Avislo (Jun 20, 2018)

This is a interesting discussion.  Has anyone actually picked one or two resorts without a purchase of developer points and if so, what was the fee, and would they post a copy of the contract redacting personal information.


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## bendadin (Jun 20, 2018)

From what we were told, it is $2395, though it is waived with purchase  

PIC Express wanted the fee and the new developer purchase after 5 years. But there is this word MAY that is in the regulations


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## skotrla (Jun 20, 2018)

$2395 x 2 for 2 weeks of PIC and Silver would be way better than a $10,000 developer purchase.  Has anyone tried this?  For low maintenance units, that might be cheaper than buying Wyndham points units via resale?

-Scott


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## Braindead (Jun 20, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> The 25% discount is not near as important to me as is the later date for doing a Points Deposit.  I can't put a price on having that later date as an option.


Agree the number one reason to get to Gold or especially Platinum is the point deposit feature.
 With the credit pool it didn’t matter if you had all resale or Platinum for planning your point usage.


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## Braindead (Jun 20, 2018)

Jimag said:


> Who pays the fee and why, if it's not an alternative to a new purchase?  This is just a rhetorical question, as I know you already said you don't have an answer.


Waiving the $2,395 I think it’s just another sales gimmick on PIC Plus anyway.
Look at the money we are saving you with your new purchase
Wyndham trying to show you how great of a deal you are getting.


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## CCdad (Jun 20, 2018)

I recall that owners of fixed weeks at legacy Wyndham resorts were charged the $2,395 fee to convert their fixed week contract into points (VIP qualfying points).  With a new developer purchase you could negotiate to have the  $2,395 fee waived just like for the PIC Plus fee.


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## Jimag (Jun 20, 2018)

skotrla said:


> $2395 x 2 for 2 weeks of PIC and Silver would be way better than a $10,000 developer purchase.  Has anyone tried this?  For low maintenance units, that might be cheaper than buying Wyndham points units via resale?
> 
> -Scott


I didn't interpret the requirements related to the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee as stating the fee was applied to each PICed week like the $89 transfer fee.  I thought the Membership Fee was just that a fee for membership in the program without regard to whether you PICed one or two weeks.  Of course, this matter is moot, if Wyndham doesn't apply the requirements according to their plain meaning, as reported earlier in this thread.  And you couldn't argue the plain meaning of the words, because the PIC program is discretionary, although I would consider it to be bad faith if Wyndham, faced with the argument that the PIC membership fee is an alternative to a new purchase of direct points, said something like "oh yeah, not any longer."


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## Jimag (Jun 20, 2018)

Jimag said:


> I didn't interpret the requirements related to the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee as stating the fee was applied to each PICed week like the $89 transfer fee.  I thought the Membership Fee was just that a fee for membership in the program without regard to whether you PICed one or two weeks.  Of course, this matter is moot, if Wyndham doesn't apply the requirements according to their plain meaning, as reported earlier in this thread.  And you couldn't argue the plain meaning of the words, because the PIC program is discretionary, although I would consider it to be bad faith if Wyndham, faced with the argument that the PIC membership fee is an alternative to a new purchase of direct points, said something like "oh yeah, not any longer."



CCdad had an interesting post a few minutes ago.  He "recalls that owners of fixed weeks at legacy Wyndham resorts were charged the $2,395 fee to convert their fixed week contract into points (VIP qualfying points). With a new developer purchase you could negotiate to have the $2,395 fee waived just like for the PIC Plus fee."  Maybe the answer is suggested by CCdad's recollection and the language in the Directory and the PIC Application form posted earlier by Richelle reflects sloppy draftsmanship.

Here's a thought -- from an accounting perspective the membership fees would go into one category and marketing and sales expenses, including commissions, would go into another, wouldn't they?  That may mean paying the membership fee as an alternative would cut out the marketing and sales unit at Wyndham but still credit Wyndham with a hefty fee with only processing costs.


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## Avislo (Jun 20, 2018)

Per Wyndham Destinations Owner Care, to use PIC Plus requires a developer purchase.


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## Jimag (Jun 20, 2018)

Avislo said:


> Per Wyndham Destinations Owner Care, to use PIC Plus requires a developer purchase.


I'm not surprised to hear that.  They should amend the language in the Directory and the PIC Application form.


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## bendadin (Jun 20, 2018)

Avislo said:


> Per Wyndham Destinations Owner Care, to use PIC Plus requires a developer purchase.



And I got this from Owner's Care: "In our contract standards an owner may bring in 2 PIC properties with a minimum purchase of 98,000 points.  It does not say anything about the amount of points per PIC."


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## Richelle (Jun 20, 2018)

bendadin said:


> And I got this from Owner's Care: "In our contract standards an owner may bring in 2 PIC properties with a minimum purchase of 98,000 points.  It does not say anything about the amount of points per PIC."



Telesales tells me it’s 49,000 points whether you are enrolling one or two.  They are the ones that sell these things.  I think they’d know a bit more about sales the owner care.


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## Jimag (Jun 20, 2018)

As I said before, they need to update the language in both the Member's Directory and the PIC Application.  It would be a good thing to do it before putting the new Directory in print.


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## Jimag (Jun 20, 2018)

bendadin said:


> And I got this from Owner's Care: "In our contract standards an owner may bring in 2 PIC properties with a minimum purchase of 98,000 points.  It does not say anything about the amount of points per PIC."


By the way, did they say who pays the PIC Membership fee for what reason?  The answer can't be it's waived for a new point purchase because that would beg the question of whether it's possible to pay the Membership fee in lieu of a purchase.


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## Jimag (Jun 20, 2018)

Richelle said:


> Telesales tells me it’s 49,000 points whether you are enrolling one or two.  They are the ones that sell these things.  I think they’d know a bit more about sales the owner care.


I agree with that, but what does this disconnect indicate?


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## Jimag (Jun 20, 2018)

Jimag said:


> I agree with that, but what does this disconnect indicate?[/QUOTE
> 
> I'll answer that myself -- it appears to me that many of the folks Wyndham hires to interface with us really don't understand the program or that they are given deficient guidance on the program and how to answer our questions.  What's more it also appears that the folks who are writing the rules may not fully understand what the purpose of the PIC program really is.  It's either that or that they can't put it into words.


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## Richelle (Jun 20, 2018)

Jimag said:


> I agree with that, but what does this disconnect indicate?


Definitely.


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## Jan M. (Jun 20, 2018)

I followed the link for the new directory that Richelle posted on the Alexandria vs another location thread. It does confirm that a week for PIC plus cannot be an RCI points week. So as an OP said you would have to take the week out of points. Our week in PIC was an RCI points week but it was either 10 or 12 years ago that we enrolled our week and as I've told the resort sold so we've no longer had that PIC week since 2014. I believe the PIC program changed since then, maybe when they added PIC Express? Wyndham will take points for PIC Express so they aren't as selective as they are with PIC Plus. I also noticed when I read the new directory that is says that PIC Plus weeks *will* be subject to an annual verification process but says for PIC Express that they *may* be.

Some of the information in the new directory appears confusing. It says that PIC Plus counts towards VIP status and lets you use those PIC weeks as Wyndham points if you choose to do so. It goes on to say that for PIC Express weeks the value of the allocated points will only count toward your 5 year VIP status and you pay .58 per thousand points. It doesn't say that you get to use those points as Wyndham points. Can someone who actually has PIC Express clarify this part?


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## Richelle (Jun 21, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> I followed the link for the new directory that Richelle posted on the Alexandria vs another location thread. It does confirm that a week for PIC plus cannot be an RCI points week. So as an OP said you would have to take the week out of points. Our week in PIC was an RCI points week but it was either 10 or 12 years ago that we enrolled our week and as I've told the resort sold so we've no longer had that PIC week since 2014. I believe the PIC program changed since then, maybe when they added PIC Express? Wyndham will take points for PIC Express so they aren't as selective as they are with PIC Plus. I also noticed when I read the new directory that is says that PIC Plus weeks *will* be subject to an annual verification process but says for PIC Express that they *may* be.
> 
> Some of the information in the new directory appears confusing. It says that PIC Plus counts towards VIP status and lets you use those PIC weeks as Wyndham points if you choose to do so. It goes on to say that for PIC Express weeks the value of the allocated points will only count toward your 5 year VIP status and you pay .58 per thousand points. It doesn't say that you get to use those points as Wyndham points. Can someone who actually has PIC Express clarify this part?


Yes, with PIC Express, you cannot use those points for booking. Most people would only use PIC Express if their week doesn’t otherwise qualify.  RCI points contract wouldn’t qualify but you can use it in PIC express for VIP status. You just cannot use them for bookings. That’s been confirmed to me from multiple
People.


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## bendadin (Jun 21, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> Some of the information in the new directory appears confusing. It says that PIC Plus counts towards VIP status and lets you use those PIC weeks as Wyndham points if you choose to do so. It goes on to say that for PIC Express weeks the value of the allocated points will only count toward your 5 year VIP status and you pay .58 per thousand points. It doesn't say that you get to use those points as Wyndham points. Can someone who actually has PIC Express clarify this part?



So after this PIC Express fiasco, we came away that PIC Express would give you the "credit" for the points but you cannot deposit the points for use in the Wyndham system. For instance, I have 3 contracts with DVC. They were trying PIC Express 2 of the contracts. It wasn't until hours later did they say that it would only be for temporary silver and a new purchase is needed at the end of the 5 years and maybe that $2395 fee to boot. They know that they can't sell DVC points. So PIC Express is for those who want/need VIP credit but their ownership doesn't fit into the Plus parameters. Where it fell apart was in their assessment of the points. They were saying that one contract is worth 254k whereas another contract is worth 154k. Anyone who knows DVC knows that life doesn't revolve around bedroom size or weeks. So they were trying to put a square peg in a round hole. BUT, I'm keeping those contracts anyway and I'm paying MF on those contracts and using the points. So it an ends to a mean, sort of. 

Still a horrible path when compared to Plus, though.


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## Lisa P (Jun 21, 2018)

Is this correct (below)?

*PIC Plus is most similar to the old PIC program?*
Anyone can make a Wyndham points developer purchase, enroll their non-Wyndham, non-Points ownerships to make them eligible for annual optional deposit with Wyndham in exchange for Wyndham points, and benefit from VIP levels commensurate with the collective maximum annual Wyndham points they'd have if they chose to deposit all of their PIC'ed weeks.

*PIC Express takes some of the features from three old programs:  PlusPartners, Discovery, and PIC? *
With old PlusPartners, fixed week or resale Wyndham owners paid a $2,395 fee to Wyndham corporate (not Sales) to make their account eligible for certain developer-points-purchase benefits.  Back then, the desired benefit was mostly access to the new RCI Points system and PlusPartners points-for-airfare/hotel/airfare/tickets options.  With PIC Express, the desired benefit would be temporary VIP status.  Bach then, Sales did not promote way of obtaining PlusPartners without a developer purchase either - you had to know to ask for it or seek it directly from corporate.
With old Discovery, potential buyers paid a fee to Sales for temporary/one-or-two year use of points to either try out Club Wyndham or to try out VIP benefits if the Discovery points increased their account to a new VIP level.  With PIC Express, there's a temporary aspect to the benefits with a 5-year limit.
With old PIC, a designated Wyndham points value for each PIC'ed non-Wyndham timeshare week was included when counting up the number of eligible points in a Wyndham account to determine VIP levels.
Other features of all of these old programs are not necessarily part of PIC Express.

(above paragraph edited)


BibbityBoppity said:


> It’s 49,000 new points to enroll up to 2 PIC Plus/Express properties.





bendadin said:


> ...Owner's Care: "In our contract standards an owner may bring in 2 PIC properties with a minimum purchase of 98,000 points."





Richelle said:


> Telesales tells me it’s 49,000 points whether you are enrolling one or two.


If there is more than one way to enroll in PIC Express, then either side may have their own references as well as some leeway to offer a deal better than what's in the reference.  It's possible that Wyndham corporate (Owner Care?) was referencing rules for PIC Plus or old rules for PIC or just some standard explanation info.  It's possible that a Salesperson (either SalesWeasel or TeleTales ) is able to offer a better deal at times to entice a potential buyer who has a particular objection (ex., one enrolled timeshare would not have enough points value to attain the next VIP level but they won't pay for two).  It's curious that the two quoted figures above are multiples of each other (49K x 2 = 98K) and the person who quoted 98K was addressing a possible PIC express of 2 contracts.

PIC Express looks like a potentially effective sales tool.  Wyndham already sells a lot of developer points to current owners.  They benefit if owners have time to learn about VIP benefits and grow accustomed to using them, perhaps become more willing to make a developer purchase later.  Even when PIC Express does not produce future sales, Wyndham corporate will have received PIC Express fee$ from people to whom Sales were unable to sell more product.


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## ecwinch (Jun 21, 2018)

Lisa P said:


> Is this correct (below)?
> 
> *PIC Plus is most similar to the old PIC program?*
> Anyone can make a Wyndham points developer purchase, enroll their non-Wyndham, non-Points ownerships to make them eligible for annual optional deposit with Wyndham in exchange for Wyndham points, and benefit from VIP levels commensurate with the collective maximum annual Wyndham points they'd have if they chose to deposit all of their PIC'ed weeks.
> ...




The mechanism is not that you deposit the the week with Wyndham. You deposit the week with RCI, and then after you make the deposit, you call Wyndham and they exchange your deposited RCI week for Wyndham points. This is the reason that the timeshare has to be an RCI resort, and I believe - the reason it has to be a deeded week.

Also - I am not sure I see that PIC Express provides the benefits described. I might be wrong, but I dont believe that if I had 300k resale points, and PIC Express'd a deeded week for 200k that I could use PlusPartners as described. Someone will certainly correct me, but I believe only your developer purchased points are eligible for PlusPartners - and a resale owner would not have developer purchased points.


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## Lisa P (Jun 21, 2018)

ecwinch said:


> The mechanism is... You deposit the week with RCI, and then after you make the deposit, you call Wyndham and they exchange your deposited RCI week for Wyndham points.


Thank you.  Different mechanism, same result, in that you give up your use of the PIC'ed week and your Wyndham account receives Wyndham points in return.



ecwinch said:


> ...[not sure] that PIC Express provides the benefits described.... I dont believe that if I had 300k resale points, and PIC Express'd a deeded week for 200k that I could use PlusPartners as described. Someone will certainly correct me, but I believe only your developer purchased points are eligible for PlusPartners...


That's correct.  I've updated my post to indicate that PIC Express only takes some of the features of each of those old programs.  PIC Express does not provide PlusPartner access... I meant that it has a similar $2,395 fee through corporate and Sales does not promote this avenue to PIC Express although it seems to be referenced in Wyndham materials.  Thank you.


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## Braindead (Jun 21, 2018)

Lisa P said:


> Different mechanism, same result, in that you give up your use of the PIC'ed week and your Wyndham account receives Wyndham points in return.


Just to be clear for the readers. It’s not different mechanism, same result
The mechanism  ecwinch layed out is the only mechanism to turn your PIC plus week into Wyndham points.
There’s only one way not multiple ways


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## Capitalb (Jun 21, 2018)

I have a PIC question.  How would EOY weeks be treated?  Would I only get 1/2 credit toward the next VIP level?


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## Lisa P (Jun 21, 2018)

Braindead said:


> The mechanism  ecwinch layed out is the only mechanism to turn your PIC plus week into Wyndham points.
> There’s only one way not multiple ways



Today, yes.  

We never used the PIC program.  So I cannot confirm this firsthand.  However, a long time ago, there were posts on TUG and on another timesharing forum indicating that Wyndham (then called "Fairfield") did not always deposit PIC'ed weeks into RCI.  I believe that in the original old PIC program, Wyndham/Fairfield had the options to rent those weeks out directly to renters or to assign them to RCI rental venues, in addition to their use in RCI exchange inventory.

Today's PIC Plus and PIC Express programs don't do this if the only mechanism for assigning a PIC'ed week to Wyndham is to deposit it first with RCI.  Thanks for the clarity.


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## bendadin (Jun 21, 2018)

But now you have to make a developer purchase for PIC Express so wouldn't you then get PlusPartners?

Our case: PIC Express DVC 1 for 254k and DVC 2 for 154k (I can't seem to figure out how they came up with those numbers anyway.) So they said that minimum purchase would be 105k (incorrect.) The 408k that counts toward VIP doesn't transfer in (well in DVC case, that is) so then the 105k made us temporary silver with bonus points of temporary gold. That temporary word was the undoing of the whole deal. We were adamant in our questions that it was permanent gold and they told us time and time again that it was, UNTIL it was being recorded. That is when the truth came out.


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## capital city (Jun 21, 2018)

Sorry if this has already been answered.  Is the pic program something Wyndham can change? Can they disallow you to deposit those weeks in the future and take away VIP status? I'm with Ron that it probably still doesn't make sense but I might do it anyways if I know I'll have it long term.


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## ronparise (Jun 21, 2018)

Braindead said:


> Agree the number one reason to get to Gold or especially Platinum is the point deposit feature.
> With the credit pool it didn’t matter if you had all resale or Platinum for planning your point usage.




It never would have occurred to me that the points deposit feature was that valuable. Everybody gets to March ; right?

I would think that most timeshare owners would have made their vacation plans for the rest of the year by then

My problem always was I didn’t have enough points and pulled points from future years. That was valuable to me.  But to be able to roll points forward... not so much

Of course I never had to work under the new system.  So I don’t know.   No doubt I’m out of touch, now


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## Richelle (Jun 21, 2018)

Lisa P said:


> Is this correct (below)?
> 
> *PIC Plus is most similar to the old PIC program?*
> Anyone can make a Wyndham points developer purchase, enroll their non-Wyndham, non-Points ownerships to make them eligible for annual optional deposit with Wyndham in exchange for Wyndham points, and benefit from VIP levels commensurate with the collective maximum annual Wyndham points they'd have if they chose to deposit all of their PIC'ed weeks.
> ...


Just to be clear, there are currently two PIC programs.  One PIC Plus and the other PIC Express. PIC express is not new. Neither is PIC Plus. Both have been around for awhile and still exist.


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## Richelle (Jun 21, 2018)

ronparise said:


> It never would have occurred to me that the points deposit feature was that valuable. Everybody gets to March ; right?
> 
> I would think that most timeshare owners would have made their vacation plans for the rest of the year by then
> 
> ...




We also have our vacation plans planned ahead as well. But sometimes we have left over points or a trip gets canceled.  Having extra time gives us a chance to work out what to do with the extra points.  As it is now, we have the next two years vacation plans laid out, but things change.

When our vacation plans started getting bigger we bought more points.  PIC points are cheaper then regular points if you do it right.  My four bedroom is $850 a year.  I spent $28 on it and I get 254,000 points. My MF on those points are cheaper then my national harbor points. So not only is PIC the cheapest way to get Silver, it’s also cheaper in MF then buying the equivalent amount of points at a low MF resort.  I can sit here and tell you 500,000 national harbor points is $5,000 on eBay, but the maintenance fees are more expensive, yadayada. It’s a matter of what fits for you.  If you don’t care about VIP, club Pass, or Plus Partners, then just go straight resale. You don’t have to worry about deposits, exchanges, whatever.  For me, the VIP at such a cheap rate, and the low MF, is worth dealing with all that.  Plus my four bedroom is a gold crown in Williamsburg which is within driving distance of me.  I can choose to use my fixed week instead. Plus, the MF are cheaper.  Upfront costs are one time, MF are for as long as you own.


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## Braindead (Jun 21, 2018)

ronparise said:


> It never would have occurred to me that the points deposit feature was that valuable. Everybody gets to March ; right?
> 
> I would think that most timeshare owners would have made their vacation plans for the rest of the year by then
> 
> ...


Being Platinum allows an owner to reserve anything through the end of the year with the peace of mind you can cancel any reservation without the risk of losing those points at year end.  I don’t use RCI. RCI is a waste to me outside of last calls.

You can reserve all possible units that you might need for a family reunion or any other big get together without worrying about who can’t make it months in advance

The more points you have the more valuable it is to me. Have reservations to rent for the holidays. They don’t get rented no problem cancel and deposit the points.

I have said it before— I don’t think owners fully understand how big of a benefit it is for Gold and Platinum owners.  A resale owner decides that they don’t need any more points this year and deposit their points in March. In June friends call do you want to meet up at x resort in December I see there’s some availability. Oh no we have no points we put them into next year. I think a lot more points will be lost at years end than owners think.

Like I posted before with the credit pool it didn’t matter. Now its a big decision for resale and Silver owners.

Even if Platinum uses points at year end for MFs. That’s better than the points expiring


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## Richelle (Jun 21, 2018)

Braindead said:


> Being Platinum allows an owner to reserve anything through the end of the year with the peace of mind you can cancel any reservation without the risk of losing those points at year end.  I don’t use RCI. RCI is a waste to me outside of last calls.
> 
> You can reserve all possible units that you might need for a family reunion or any other big get together without worrying about who can’t make it months in advance
> 
> ...




You make excellent points about the benefit of the points deposit extension. The points deposit extension to the end of the year is the only platinum benefit i would be able to take advantage of, that i don't already have.  Since i travel during prime, upgrades and discounts may be rare for me, but i may get lucky on the upgrade side.  For people who are retire and can afford to be flexible, they could take advantage of the discounts and upgrades.  If they add to the VIP benefits, i might change my mind later, but right now i would have to spend about $45k to go Platinum.  Less if i swap out my mom's two bedroom PIC for a three bedroom.  Considering she spent $20k on that back in 99, I don't see myself doing that anytime soon. lol


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## Cyrus24 (Jun 21, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> It does confirm that a week for PIC plus cannot be an RCI points week. So as an OP said you would have to take the week out of points. Our week in PIC was an RCI points week but it was either 10 or 12 years ago that we enrolled our week


You can still convert a points week to its original deeded week for PIC.  

Immediately after buying developer points and enrolling the eligible 'week' for PIC, I contacted RCI and asked to have an RCI Points week that I already owned converted to an RCI week.  They send you a form (e-mail), you fill it out, send (e-mail) it back and the conversion gets done.  I had been told by sales that I had 30 days to do the convert or my PIC enrollment could be voided.  I wanted it done inside the rescission period.  I've done this twice (in 2017 and again in 2018), both times the approval and updates to my RCI points account were completed within 5 days.  The form allows you to pick the effective year for the conversion.  I picked 1 year in the future as I did not want to accidentally have a Points reservation cancelled.  My wishes were fulfilled.


The first week I converted has been deposited for 2019 with RCI/Wyndham and the associated Wyndham Points are in my account.  I expect the 2018 PIC to work just as easily once it comes time to deposit that week.  My point is, unless something has changed in the last 2 months, you can take one of your eligible RCI points resorts and get it to a week for PIC at the time of Developer purchase.  It was a real win for me as I was finding that I did not need those RCI points, having the Wyndham points and the associated move up to Gold VIP fit my vacation plans better. 

Am I the only one who has converted the points to weeks in order to get the PIC in the last year?


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## Richelle (Jun 22, 2018)

Capitalb said:


> I have a PIC question.  How would EOY weeks be treated?  Would I only get 1/2 credit toward the next VIP level?


No one has answered this so I will attempt to. Since you can only deposit your week once a year, it would make sense that you only get “credit” towards your VIP status every other year. I know with points only half the points count. So for consistency purposes, they might do the same with PIC. However, other then the sleezy sales tactics the sales people use, when have we know Wyndham to be consistent?  Unfortunately it doesn’t say anywhere in the directory or the owner 101 articles so I think it’s left up to whoever enters in Your PIC into the system. They do have a PIC inquiry department. You can call Owner care and ask them to submit the question to them. Fair warning though, the last time I dealt with the PIC inquiry department, I had to email the CEO. They are not the fastest horses in the stables. Hopefully someone kicked their butts into gear since then.


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## Hoosier64 (Jun 27, 2018)

Has anyone ever heard of ghost points being used to PIC your way to VIP? With a new purchase, of course. How are PIC weeks added into the contract language?


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## Richelle (Jun 27, 2018)

Hoosier64 said:


> Has anyone ever heard of ghost points being used to PIC your way to VIP? With a new purchase, of course. How are PIC weeks added into the contract language?


Ghost points?  Not sure where you got that term. When you buy more points, there is a PIC enrollment form you fill out with the information for youeach Fixed/float week. There is nothing  in the contract itself. You have proof you enrolled it and the publicized directory that explains the program and requirements. Like almost everything else, they could discontinue the program, but I would imagine they would grandfather people in like they did when the eligiblty requirements changed for VIP. No guarantee of course, but there is also nothing guaranteed about the program except whatever rights are tied to deeded ownership with the local governments.


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## Happyowner/user (Jun 28, 2018)

Arb said:


> Regarding PIC weeks -- is it possible to replace a 2br PIC week with a 3br PIC week?


Yes it is.  That is doable...call member services


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## Richelle (Jun 28, 2018)

Owners Cares direct # is 
1-866-388-7654. See if there is anything they can recommend like filling out a PIC correction form. Wouldn’t hurt to ask.


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