# From the NY Post - Hilton fears bad rep over timeshare deal



## tombanjo (Jan 31, 2020)

"In particular, Hilton Worldwide appears worried that a sale of the timeshare resort company could tarnish the brand of its own swanky chain, according to sources close to the situation. "









						Hilton fears bad rep over timeshare deal
					

An auction of Hilton Grand Vacations has been thrown into doubt, as hotel giant Hilton Worldwide appears to be waffling on whether to allow its brand to be licensed to prospective buyers, The Post …




					nypost.com


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## pedro47 (Jan 31, 2020)

Thanks Richard for sharing this article.
Wyndham Destination owners  and Diamonds owners needs to read this whole article. *LOL.*


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## anderik1 (Jan 31, 2020)

I just saw this as well. Makes me really wonder if the sale will go through. 

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## dayooper (Jan 31, 2020)

The tidbit I thought was interesting was Wyndham is a suitor. I may be out of the loop, but that was a new one to me. I wonder what HGVC under Wyndham would look like.


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## Conan (Jan 31, 2020)

Very insightful article, and in the New York Post of all places!


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## ocdb8r (Jan 31, 2020)

My suggestion: If you care about this and have thinking similar to Hilton, I suggest you send an email to reinforce their fears.  Let them know that HGVC managed by Wyndham or Diamond will irreparably damage your view of the Hilton brand and that you'll consider leaving both Hilton and HGVC if something like this were to occur.  I guarantee you Wyndham and Diamond are pulling out every trick in the book to make Hilton feel ok about this...and we should be making sure Hilton knows this matters to owners.  You can send an email to the CEO's office (of course he won't be reading these, but they are more likely to get to the right hands) at christopher.nassetta@hilton.com with cc to ir@hilton.com.

I understand there may be some who think it might not be so bad being merged into Wyndham or Diamond, but I for one am not interested in becoming part of those behemoths.


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## SmithOp (Jan 31, 2020)

dayooper said:


> The tidbit I thought was interesting was Wyndham is a suitor. I may be out of the loop, but that was a new one to me. I wonder what HGVC under Wyndham would look like.



You might want to catch up on your reading.










						Michael Brown to Lead Wyndham Vacation Ownership - Hotel Business
					

PARSIPPANY, NJ – Wyndham Worldwide has appointed Michael D. Brown as president and chief executive officer of Wyndham Vacation Ownership effective Michael Brown




					www.hotelbusiness.com
				





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## GT75 (Jan 31, 2020)

Similar Report (looks like from the same source)





__





						Drama with the Hilton name | Seeking Alpha
					

Concerns by Hilton Worldwide (NYSE:HLT) over its brand reputation could get in the way of a sale of Hilton Grand Vacations (NYSE:HGV), according to New York Post.




					seekingalpha.com


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## pedro47 (Jan 31, 2020)

At one time Wyndham was a suitor of Sunterra Resort now Diamond Resorts; now own by Apollo; CEO Leon Black..


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## CPNY (Jan 31, 2020)

Now I’m glad  Vistana was purchased by MVC lol.


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## brp (Jan 31, 2020)

"Under a 100-year deal announced at the time of the spinoff, Hilton Grand Vacations pays Hilton Worldwide a 5% gross royalty fee for the right to use the Hilton name. By adding the Hilton name to its existing timeshares, a new owner would pay more royalty fees to Hilton."

OK, so maybe we should start talking about possibilities for what may happen in 97 years when this agreement expires...

Cheers.


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## tombanjo (Jan 31, 2020)

Vacations will be digital - virtual experiences. I have already booked a weekend with Eccentrica Gallumbits for 2087. Villa Straylight  was booked that week end, but maybe 2088 I'll get there.


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## brp (Jan 31, 2020)

tombanjo said:


> Vacations will be digital - virtual experiences. I have already booked a weekend with Eccentrica Gallumbits for 2087. Villa Straylight  was booked that week end, but maybe 2088 I'll get there.



When did HGVC announce that they would have a virtual property on Eroticon 6? I must have missed that!

Cheers,
Bruce


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## tahoeJoe (Jan 31, 2020)

brp said:


> "Under a 100-year deal announced at the time of the spinoff, Hilton Grand Vacations pays Hilton Worldwide a 5% gross royalty fee for the right to use the Hilton name. By adding the Hilton name to its existing timeshares, a new owner would pay more royalty fees to Hilton."
> 
> OK, so maybe we should start talking about possibilities for what may happen in 97 years when this agreement expires...
> 
> Cheers.



5% of gross seems incredibly high. Are you sure about this?


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## dayooper (Jan 31, 2020)

tombanjo said:


> Vacations will be digital - virtual experiences. I have already booked a weekend with Eccentrica Gallumbits for 2087. Villa Straylight  was booked that week end, but maybe 2088 I'll get there.



Eh . . . Gallumbits was a little to pretentious for me. Everyone kept saying it was their precious, but the program was a little glitchy and was in dire need of an update. It's like it was two different virtual resorts. Now The Hillton Valley Resort was great! We stayed in the Emmet  program during the Brown season and it was awesome! Our only issue was the 1.21 gigawatts it used.


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## brp (Jan 31, 2020)

tahoeJoe said:


> 5% of gross seems incredibly high. Are you sure about this?



I quoted the article linked above. I have no idea, personally, about the veracity of the statement.

Cheers.


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## dayooper (Jan 31, 2020)

SmithOp said:


> You might want to catch up on your reading.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This came out well before I bought into HGVC or even thought about owning a TS. I still haven't heard of anyone other than Apollo/Diamond and Blackstone being suitors. I know Wyndham was brought up as a what if in the original thread, but it's the first time outside of speculation that they were mentioned by name.


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## 1Kflyerguy (Jan 31, 2020)

brp said:


> I quoted the article linked above. I have no idea, personally, about the veracity of the statement.
> 
> Cheers.



Thats the same figure i have read elsewhere.  It does seem a bit high,  but Hilton is strong brand,  and they do a fair bit of cross marketing, such as passing people who make phone reservations over to HGV for possible promo stays, etc.


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## dayooper (Jan 31, 2020)

1Kflyerguy said:


> Thats the same figure i have read elsewhere.  It does seem a bit high,  but Hilton is strong brand,  and they do a fair bit of cross marketing, such as passing people who make phone reservations over to HGV for possible promo stays, etc.



They also spun off the HGVC division and were in the thick of things as they wrote the contract laguage for the agreement.


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## SmithOp (Jan 31, 2020)

dayooper said:


> This came out well before I bought into HGVC or even thought about owning a TS. I still haven't heard of anyone other than Apollo/Diamond and Blackstone being suitors. I know Wyndham was brought up as a what if in the original thread, but it's the first time outside of speculation that they were mentioned by name.



My point was there is a lot of inbreeding in the Orlando boardrooms of these Timeshare Systems, Brown had previously worked HGV and Marriott before going to Wyndham. Its no surprise Wyndham is interested, imo.


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## dayooper (Jan 31, 2020)

SmithOp said:


> My point was there is a lot of inbreeding in the Orlando boardrooms of these Timeshare Systems, Brown had previously worked HGV and Marriott before going to Wyndham. Its no surprise Wyndham is interested, imo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro



I'm not surprised either. In fact, I thought Wyndham would benefit greatly from the system and brand. More so than Diamond, IMHO. Wyndham as a need for the high end timeshare to keep up with Marriott and HGVC, as long as they kept the Hilton branding, would fill that void spectacularly. The biggest issue is keeping the Hilton brand as it brings in different clientele then their regular hotels.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jan 31, 2020)

Is Wyndham TS separate from the hotels similar to HGVC and Hilton? If not, I doubt Hilton would want to mix brands and share hotel sourced leads that could potentially get in the hands of a competitor. This could damage relationships with their lower end brand franchisees such as Hampton. In general, Hilton and Wyndham are two separate classes.

Hilton HTL should be rightfully concerned about the tarnish on their brand if these deals succeed. 

I hope these deals fall apart.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jan 31, 2020)

dayooper said:


> This came out well before I bought into HGVC or even thought about owning a TS. I still haven't heard of anyone other than Apollo/Diamond and Blackstone being suitors. I know Wyndham was brought up as a what if in the original thread, but it's the first time outside of speculation that they were mentioned by name.


It doesnt appear much happened under Michael Brown as HGVC CEO and the brand appeared to be on cruise control. This could have been distractions and hotel constraints pre-spinoff, or the CEO is a bureaucratic boat anchor. Once Mark Wang came on board expansion started happening.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jan 31, 2020)

Never heard of buyout firm Centerview partners. Can anyone shed light on their interest in the timeshare industry?


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## brp (Jan 31, 2020)

Is Blackstone still in the mix (likely not or someone would have said something here)? A number of people here know a lot more than me about this, but I thought that we potentially liked Blackstone relative to the other options.

Cheers.


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## 1Kflyerguy (Jan 31, 2020)

brp said:


> Is Blackstone still in the mix (likely not or someone would have said something here)? A number of people here know a lot more than me about this, but I thought that we potentially liked Blackstone relative to the other options.
> 
> Cheers.



At one point I heard that Blackstone was outbid by Apollo, but i have not heard that they were completely out.  But to be honest I don't recall hearing that Wyndam was in the mix either.   Not too surprising, but had not heard they were under consideration.

I would think Hilton would object to mixing competing hotel brands such as Wyndam and HVC into a single entity.  That has been problematic for MVC and Hyatt timeshares.


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## Talent312 (Jan 31, 2020)

I thought this statement was particularly self-serving:
"Diamond says that, under Apollo’s ownership, it has stabilized fees, scaled back aggressive sales tactics and made it easier for clients to walk away from their timeshares if they wish."

Oh, really?


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## escanoe (Jan 31, 2020)

dayooper said:


> I thought Wyndham would benefit greatly from the system and brand.



I was previously thinking I might wind up going to the Wyndham system if Diamond made it too tough to stick around.


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## escanoe (Jan 31, 2020)

dayooper said:


> In fact, I thought Wyndham would benefit greatly from the system and brand. More so than Diamond, IMHO. Wyndham as a need for the high end timeshare to keep up with Marriott and HGVC, as long as they kept the Hilton branding, would fill that void spectacularly.



I agree with the reasoning above, plus one other consideration. Wyndham owns RCI. Diamond resorts are currently/mostly with II. If Diamond/Apollo were to consider taking HGVC’s affiliation to II, that would pull many of the good high end properties out of RCI and might devalue it.


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## Mowogo (Feb 1, 2020)

escanoe said:


> I agree with the reasoning above, plus one other consideration. Wyndham owns RCI. Diamond resorts are currently/mostly with II. If Diamond/Apollo were to consider taking HGVC’s affiliation to II, that would pull many of the good high end properties out of RCI and might devalue it.


Exactly why Wyndham might actually be decent.  Wyndham needs HGVC for RCI, as I could actually see Disney flip as well if HGVC went with II.


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## pedro47 (Feb 1, 2020)

I wish Marriott’s would purchase HGVC.


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## tombanjo (Feb 1, 2020)

I wish Hilton would purchase HGVC


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## Deb & Bill (Feb 1, 2020)

I wonder how this will affect the HGVC affiliated resorts.  I just sold my last affiliated week (we moved to Marco and don't need a timeshare there any more) and I know lots of people come to Marco by trading through RCI.


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## CalGalTraveler (Feb 1, 2020)

FYI...Centerview partners doesn't appear to be a buyout firm as indicated in the article. They appear to be an investment bank brokering the deal, perhaps on behalf of HGV.  They were the investment bank working with Diamond in 2016 when Apollo bought.  Below is an article in 2016 describing the relationship:









						Diamond Resorts Seen Likely to Take Itself Private
					

Unable to raise its share price due to short sellers and branded competitors, the timeshare company is likely to go private, according to a source close to the company.




					www.thestreet.com
				









						Centerview Partners
					






					www.centerviewpartners.com


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## HitchHiker71 (Feb 1, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Is Wyndham TS separate from the hotels similar to HGVC and Hilton? If not, I doubt Hilton would want to mix brands and share hotel sourced leads that could potentially get in the hands of a competitor. This could damage relationships with their lower end brand franchisees such as Hampton. In general, Hilton and Wyndham are two separate classes.
> 
> Hilton HTL should be rightfully concerned about the tarnish on their brand if these deals succeed.
> 
> I hope these deals fall apart.



Hi all. I’m a forum member but usually frequent the Wyndham section, and actually started a thread over on our forum about this same topic since Wyndham is a suitor. I think the fact that Michael Brown was the COO at HGVC prior to coming to Wyndham Destinations as CEO makes it likely that Wyndham is one of the primary suitors for this deal. 

To answer your question, similar to Hilton, Wyndham spun off their timeshare division into a separate company back in 2017, now called Wyndham Destinations. This is the company that Michael Brown now heads up as CEO. So your concern about the hotel brand issue is limited as a result. 

I would also surmise that much like when Wyndham acquired Worldmark, if they acquire HGVC, which would become a “premium” timeshare brand, it will be segmented off from Club Wyndham timeshares. It would have to be since the HGVC founding timeshare trust documents probably don’t allow for any integration without explicit majority approval from the ownership base. 

As a Club Wyndham timeshare owner I can book into Worldmark, another previously acquired timeshare company, via a program called Club Pass, but I have to call in (no online reservation capability is available) and inventory availability is limited since we can only book nine months out. Worldmark owners can book further in advance than anyone using Club Pass so we only get the leftovers so to speak. I would expect any access into HGVC to be the same. I would expect HGVC owners to have a similar ability to book into Club Wyndham resorts as well, were this M&A to actually occur. 

It will be interesting to see who ends up scooping up HGVC. 





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## Cecile Boisvert (Feb 1, 2020)

tombanjo said:


> "In particular, Hilton Worldwide appears worried that a sale of the timeshare resort company could tarnish the brand of its own swanky chain, according to sources close to the situation. "
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What I find most shocking in this article is the mention of “a 2 billion dollar” loss for HGVC...yikes!
How long will they be able to resist a sale?
Bankrupcy or huge $ losses could do a lot more damage to the “Hilton brand”.
In 2020, is the timeshare business model still sustainable? I really wonder.


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## CalGalTraveler (Feb 1, 2020)

@HitchHiker71 Thanks for the background. I see Wyndham as a much better suitor than Diamond for several reasons:

1) Wyndham has done a good job separating the Worldmark brand which many owners seem to like.
2) Hilton license would require HGV to be separate from Wyndham similar to MVC and Hyatt. I don't see this as the case with Diamond.
3) RCI ownership and participation as stated previously.
4) Wyndham may want to leverage the HGV reservation system to its other brands  as is it now quite good.


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## Panina (Feb 1, 2020)

Deb & Bill said:


> I wonder how this will affect the HGVC affiliated resorts.  I just sold my last affiliated week (we moved to Marco and don't need a timeshare there any more) and I know lots of people come to Marco by trading through RCI.


For owners of Marco Island affiliates, the risks are minimal.  If you don’t want to be part of HGVC you don’t have to be. For the affiliates that can trade in II, they are great traders. For trades coming from RCI, as always  no guarantees, if you don’t own it.


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## tombanjo (Feb 1, 2020)

It's 2 billion debt. Not loss. Debt is normal for businesses and the norm for take over is suck out all the money, crank up debt, and dump the lame duck to slowly dies on someone else's dime.


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## CalGalTraveler (Feb 1, 2020)

$2 billion debt likely reflects construction of new TS locations such as Maui, NYC, Cabo etc.  Although I haven't calculated the debt leverage for HGV, a look at Wyndham Destinations shows a similar structure with $3B in debt on their bal sheet. They indicated that debt was 2.9x leverage (as defined below) which is within range of 2.5x to 3.0x as a norm for the company.






						Wyndham Destinations Reports Third Quarter 2019 Results
					

ORLANDO, Fla., Oct. 30, 2019 Wyndham Destinations, Inc. (NYSE: WYND), the world's largest vacation ownership and exchange company, today reported third quarter...




					www.prnewswire.com
				




Leverage Ratio: The Company calculates leverage ratio as net debt divided by Adjusted EBITDA.


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## escanoe (Feb 1, 2020)

Not advocating for a Wyndham takeover here, but the big addition I would put near the top of @CalGalTraveler's list ..... based on what I know about Wyndham is they are less likely to try to transition HGVC into some kind of trust system.

On the flip side I might like it if HGVC went to II. Pretty sure I like RCI the best for my needs, but I have a couple of good RCI traders. Adding II access to my current portfolio might be nice.



CalGalTraveler said:


> @HitchHiker71 Thanks for the background. I see Wyndham as a much better suitor than Diamond for several reasons:
> 
> 1) Wyndham has done a good job separating the Worldmark brand which many owners seem to like.
> 2) Hilton license would require HGV to be separate from Wyndham similar to MVC and Hyatt. I don't see this as the case with Diamond.
> ...


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## CalGalTraveler (Feb 1, 2020)

I am not sure what is driving them to sell, but IMHO, I would like them to remain separate as well. I view Wyndham as the lesser of two evils. No matter whom they sell to, it sounds like licensing fees to Hilton will increase and owners will be stuck with the burden of paying for all of this.


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## dayooper (Feb 1, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I am not sure what is driving them to sell, but IMHO, I would like them to remain separate as well. I view Wyndham as the lesser of two evils. No matter whom they sell to, it sounds like licensing fees to Hilton will increase and owners will be stuck with the burden of paying for all of this.



I think the driving force behind push to sell is an equity firm (can’t remember their name). Back in the fall, there was a report that one of the stock holders was pushing to sell off. They on something like 5-7% of the stock.


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## HitchHiker71 (Feb 1, 2020)

escanoe said:


> Not advocating for a Wyndham takeover here, but the big addition I would put near the top of @CalGalTraveler's list ..... based on what I know about Wyndham they are less likely to try to over time try to transition HGVC into some kind of trust system.
> 
> On the flip side I might like it if HGVC went to II. Pretty sure I like RCI the best for my needs, but I have a couple of good RCI traders. Adding II access to my current portfolio might be nice.



Can you provide more detail on what you mean by “some kind of trust system.”? I ask because Club Wyndham has at least three ownership types at present. They still have legacy weeks based deeded ownerships - from Fairfield owners that have never had any desire to convert to a UDI points based deeded contract(s). Then there’s UDI deeded points based contracts - these are called Club Wyndham Select ownerships (CWS).  Finally there are trust based contracts - no deeded ownerships - the trust actually holds the deeded inventory. These are called Club Wyndham Access ownerships (CWA).  

A Wyndham account can actually hold all three ownership types.  I’m both a CWA and a CWS owner myself.  


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## rickandcindy23 (Feb 1, 2020)

Wyndham does control maintenance fees, which would be a plus for HGVC owners.  I am not an owner of HGVC, but I do own Wyndham, and fees do not increase like Marriott does. 

My concern for owners of HGVC is the way Wyndham resale owners are treated in Wyndham.  Resale benefits of HGVC could suffer under Wyndham.  

Now Vistana is with Marriott, and I am seeing a future for my SBP that is not positive for me.  Higher fees with my Marriott's Willow Ridge do not compute for my many weeks SBP weeks, specifically all of the 2 bed, 2 bath villas.  I may have to dump my regular 2 bedroom villas and keep the lockoffs.


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## sheila59 (Feb 1, 2020)

tombanjo said:


> "In particular, Hilton Worldwide appears worried that a sale of the timeshare resort company could tarnish the brand of its own swanky chain, according to sources close to the situation. "
> 
> https://nypost.
> [QUOTE="tombanjo, p...on-fears-bad-rep-over-timeshare-deal/[/QUOTE]Interesting article - after visiting LV this December, and having stayed at the HGVC at the Flamingo about 15 years ago, and then seeing it less than two months ago, I would say that the resort is extremely run down, and in need of someone or something to rescue it. The property was dirty and when we went in through the casino entrance there were homeless hanging around the door, (didn’t see that at other properties?) The bird sanctuary was very sad, the flora and fauna was wilted and dying, and there was a lot of bird dung around. No one seemed to care, it just looked awful, and after staying there 15 years ago, it seems to me that it hasn’t been taken care of in all that time. Sad!


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## Marathoner (Feb 1, 2020)

Likely, all of this is posturing so that Hilton can negotiate an increase of their annual 5% royalty fee from the new buyer


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## audirt (Feb 2, 2020)

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, but how would a sale impact owners at properties like Elara?  As I recall, HGV is only a partial owner there.  Would each property make a choice about whether to go with the new company or breakaway?


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## dgalati (Feb 2, 2020)

ocdb8r said:


> My suggestion: If you care about this and have thinking similar to Hilton, I suggest you send an email to reinforce their fears.  Let them know that HGVC managed by Wyndham or Diamond will irreparably damage your view of the Hilton brand and that you'll consider leaving both Hilton and HGVC if something like this were to occur.  I guarantee you Wyndham and Diamond are pulling out every trick in the book to make Hilton feel ok about this...and we should be making sure Hilton knows this matters to owners.  You can send an email to the CEO's office (of course he won't be reading these, but they are more likely to get to the right hands) at christopher.nassetta@hilton.com with cc to ir@hilton.com.
> 
> I understand there may be some who think it might not be so bad being merged into Wyndham or Diamond, but I for one am not interested in becoming part of those behemoths.


The money offered maybe to much for them to walk away from. It also can be hard to exit your HGVC without taking a financial loss above and beyond your initial purchase price.


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## ocdb8r (Feb 3, 2020)

dgalati said:


> The money offered maybe to much for them to walk away from. It also can be hard to exit your HGVC without taking a financial loss above and beyond your initial purchase price.



Remember, the money isn't being offered to Hilton, but rather HGV which is a separate entity.  Hilton retains a veto on the transaction as part of the branding license.  The new buyer will either need to abandon the Hilton name or get approval pursuant to this license.

Now, I have no doubt that a suitor could sweeten Hilton on the deal by offering up some cash or improving the terms of of the overall license, but I think these reports make clear Hilton is giving this some pause as tarnishing the name could have wide reaching implications.  A deal make not make sense to these suitors if there's a bigger cost to maintaining the Hilton name...and the more we pressure Hilton, the more likely they are to veto the transaction or require too much to make the deal happen.  In either case, I think it's in our interest to try to use what little leverage we have to ensure Hilton protects us from someone looking to just extract as much cash as possible from the HGV operation (with no regard to the reputational damage it could do).


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## ocdb8r (Feb 3, 2020)

audirt said:


> Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, but how would a sale impact owners at properties like Elara?  As I recall, HGV is only a partial owner there.  Would each property make a choice about whether to go with the new company or breakaway?



Short answer - a sale of HGV does little to change the management contract dynamic that exists at each property.

Each property already makes this decision on a regular basis; HGV does not have a management contract in perpetuity.  At many properties, the ownerships they hold as a developer gives them effective control of the Board of each property and thus there's little risk of them losing their contract.  This would continue as the new owner would gain these positions.  What could affect things is those independent Board members that are fans of HGV could sour on a new owner and try to push their Boards to select a different company to manage their property.


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## audirt (Feb 3, 2020)

ocdb8r said:


> Short answer - a sale of HGV does little to change the management contract dynamic that exists at each property.
> 
> Each property already makes this decision on a regular basis; HGV does not have a management contract in perpetuity.  At many properties, the ownerships they hold as a developer gives them effective control of the Board of each property and thus there's little risk of them losing their contract.  This would continue as the new owner would gain these positions.  What could affect things is those independent Board members that are fans of HGV could sour on a new owner and try to push their Boards to select a different company to manage their property.


Makes sense.  Thanks.


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## WalnutBaron (Feb 4, 2020)

For those hoping HGVC is eventually sold to Marriott or II (which is also owned by Marriott), be careful what you wish for. We Hyatt owners are feeling the full effect of Marriott ownership this year after absorbing huge MF increases in 2020, ranging from a minimum of 8% up to as much as 40% over 2019 rates, when Hyatt was still owned by Hyatt. And we're pretty sure Marriott is not done yet, as they determine how to integrate the Hyatt brand in their massive portfolio, which includes Marriott, Vistana (Westin and Sheraton brands), Hyatt, and Interval International. In their calculus, I believe they determined that Hyatt's overall MF structure was lower than the market would bear and saw it as an immediate opportunity to increase cash flow and reduce debt. Of course, the real effect is to reduce resale values and, indirectly, to hammer the resale market--something Marriott cries no tears over, but which substantially affects those of us who are resale owners and potential buyers and sellers.

As a former HGVC owner, I always thought the HGVC and (former) Hyatt systems were far and away the most flexible systems out there, with MF's that were reasonable, providing excellent value to all owners, including resale owners. But that window has closed on Hyatt and may very well close on HGVC as well once a sale is completed.


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## amy241 (Feb 4, 2020)

ocdb8r said:


> My suggestion: If you care about this and have thinking similar to Hilton, I suggest you send an email to reinforce their fears.  Let them know that HGVC managed by Wyndham or Diamond will irreparably damage your view of the Hilton brand and that you'll consider leaving both Hilton and HGVC if something like this were to occur.  I guarantee you Wyndham and Diamond are pulling out every trick in the book to make Hilton feel ok about this...and we should be making sure Hilton knows this matters to owners.  You can send an email to the CEO's office (of course he won't be reading these, but they are more likely to get to the right hands) at christopher.nassetta@hilton.com with cc to ir@hilton.com.
> 
> I understand there may be some who think it might not be so bad being merged into Wyndham or Diamond, but I for one am not interested in becoming part of those behemoths.



I sent an email to them voicing my concerns as an owner in HGVC.


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## nuwermj (Feb 4, 2020)

dayooper said:


> ..., I thought Wyndham would benefit greatly from the system and brand. More so than Diamond, IMHO. Wyndham as a need for the high end timeshare to keep up with Marriott and HGVC, as long as they kept the Hilton branding, would fill that void spectacularly. The biggest issue is keeping the Hilton brand as it brings in different clientele then their regular hotels.



I'm having difficulty imagining how Wyndham Destinations could finance a merger with HGV. If Apollo wins the bid they will use a leveraged buyout and take HGV private. They will then merge HGV and Diamond, then, sometime down the road, sell equity shares in that new entity. The current HGV owners will get cash for their current undervalued shares. Wyndham can't pay cash to buy out HGV share holders. That would require taking on far too much debt.

Alternatively, Wyndham could follow Marriott's model for buying ILG, that is, merge the two companies. But, under this model, the current HGV share holders will simply exchange their current shares for shares in the new company. It doesn't appear that those shares would be as valuable as the cash Apollo can pay. How would a merger boost the value of the combined company enough to pay off the current HGV share holders? It is, after all, these share holders, mostly institutional money, which forced HGV to consider "strategic alternatives."

What am I missing? Who could Wyndham Destinations finance a merger and satisfy its current owners?


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## Nomad420 (Feb 4, 2020)

amy241 said:


> I sent an email to them voicing my concerns as an owner in HGVC.


Want to get a letter out soon as well.  Many concerns when I heard about this potential sale on national news the other day.  How will they handle selling the Hilton name such entities as let's say Wyndam when some of there properties are actually located in HILTON hotels (ie. NYC)???!!!  I purchased just prior to HGVC going public and when that news broke I felt a bit ripped off as nothing was told to me during the purchase and now this news.  Not a happy Hilton camper right now.


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## dayooper (Feb 4, 2020)

nuwermj said:


> I'm having difficulty imagining how Wyndham Destinations could finance a merger with HGV. If Apollo wins the bid they will use a leveraged buyout and take HGV private. They will then merge HGV and Diamond, then, sometime down the road, sell equity shares in that new entity. The current HGV owners will get cash for their current undervalued shares. Wyndham can't pay cash to buy out HGV share holders. That would require taking on far too much debt.
> 
> Alternatively, Wyndham could follow Marriott's model for buying ILG, that is, merge the two companies. But, under this model, the current HGV share holders will simply exchange their current shares for shares in the new company. It doesn't appear that those shares would be as valuable as the cash Apollo can pay. How would a merger boost the value of the combined company enough to pay off the current HGV share holders? It is, after all, these share holders, mostly institutional money, which forced HGV to consider "strategic alternatives."
> 
> What am I missing? Who could Wyndham Destinations finance a merger and satisfy its current owners?



The missing piece is The Hilton Brand licensing. HGVC is worth much less without the Hilton brand licensing. My guess is that's the reason why Apollo was looking at HGVC in the first place. The article states that Hilton is worried about it's Brand image being associated with Diamond and/or Wyndham. HGVC has no control over what Hilton does with it's  brand. If Hilton doesn't allow the brand to transfer to the new owner, the value of the company decreases dramatically. Whether it's warranted or not Diamond's image is not very good. If Hilton thinks that Diamond, or even an association with Diamond would damage the Hilton Hotel image (something the linked article alludes to), the value of HGVC to Diamond (or Wyndham Destinations for that matter) could/would drop to a point where it might not be worth the cost. If they think Wyndham Destinations would not tarnish the image of Hilton, they could allow the brand license to transfer. If they thought Diamond would, they could pull the licensing and the value of the company to Apollo would drop.


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## nuwermj (Feb 5, 2020)

dayooper said:


> The missing piece is The Hilton Brand licensing.



I'm not seeing how Hilton's brand license answers my question. I'm suggesting that Wyndham Destinations cannot afford HGV. My question is how can WYND finance a merger and satisfy HGV share holders.


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## amy241 (Feb 5, 2020)

I received this response to my email to Hilton:


Thank you for your email of yesterday to our Chief Executive, Chris Nassetta, expressing your concern regarding recent news articles about the possible sale of Hilton Grand Vacations.   A few minutes ago, I left a voicemail for you.

In 2017, Hilton divested its stake in Hilton Grand Vacations.  Since then, the company has had independent owners and management.  Nevertheless, we value the input from Hilton’s guests as discussions proceed to determine whether HGVs name will remain unchanged if the current owners of the company sell it. 

With best regards,        


*David Ryan*
Executive Customer Relations


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## Nomad420 (Feb 5, 2020)

amy241 said:


> I received this response to my email to Hilton:
> 
> 
> Thank you for your email of yesterday to our Chief Executive, Chris Nassetta, expressing your concern regarding recent news articles about the possible sale of Hilton Grand Vacations.   A few minutes ago, I left a voicemail for you.
> ...


Starting to feel a bit of a bate and switch deal here.  I again am concerned as what will happen to properties that actually in Hilton Hotels.  What about our contracted Hilton Honors points transfer agreement?  How about the many affiliated properties that many owners now use?  So many questions left unanswered here but thank you for posting this reply.


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## amy241 (Feb 5, 2020)

Nomad420 said:


> Starting to feel a bit of a bate and switch deal here.  I again am concerned as what will happen to properties that actually in Hilton Hotels.  What about our contracted Hilton Honors points transfer agreement?  How about the many affiliated properties that many owners now use?  So many questions left unanswered here but thank you for posting this reply.



I feel like if they pull the Hilton brand from our timeshare program the program will suffer as a result. It will not trade as well in II, value of weeks will experience price drops, etc. I wasn’t even aware Hilton no longer owned HGVC until I read this email.


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## CalGalTraveler (Feb 5, 2020)

There have been other threads on this. IMO...the deal will fall apart if the buyer is not able to use the Hilton name or get the lead flow from Hilton.  Why would Diamond want more no-name timeshare properties? - they've already got plenty. More unbranded properties only adds to their risk burden for ROI because the deal value resides in the Hilton brand license.

Wyndham may have a more strategic need to develop a high-end offering to compete with MVC. However, as @nuwermj pointed out, making this financially feasible and palatable to Hilton HTL are large hurdles.  An advantage of Wyndham is that Hilton would force them to firewall the Hilton brand from the Wyndham brands so things would run similar to today.

But why would Wyndham consider if they cannot easily cross-sell and leverage? Not to mention the awkwardness of hosting Wyndham/ex-HGV properties on Hilton resorts.


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## dayooper (Feb 5, 2020)

nuwermj said:


> I'm not seeing how Hilton's brand license answers my question. I'm suggesting that Wyndham Destinations cannot afford HGV. My question is how can WYND finance a merger and satisfy HGV share holders.



Since I’m not a finance person, I really don’t know and, quite frankly, don’t care. It’s not my job to figure that out. I don’t know the inner workings of Wyndham’s finances. My guess is the only people that can answer that question are those involved. While I have appreciated your input on the potential merger, I am not enjoying this particular aspect of the discussion. I always try to reply to those that ask questions as it’s the polite thing to do, even if it’s something I really don’t want to talk about.

I’m of the thought process that I want things to stay the same. If they are sold, I want to be as far away from Apollo and Diamond as possible. So, let me stay in my happy place where HGVC is HGVC and not Diamond until I have to deal with it.


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## Nomad420 (Feb 5, 2020)

dayooper said:


> I’m of the thought process that I want things to stay the same. If they are sold, I want to be as far away from Apollo and Diamond as possible. So, let me stay in my happy place where HGVC is HGVC and not Diamond until I have to deal with it.


LOL, feel somewhat the same but thank to all who have responded.  It is one of the more interesting and somewhat disconcerting threads now here on the HGVC forum.


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## brp (Feb 5, 2020)

dayooper said:


> I’m of the thought process that I want things to stay the same. If they are sold, I want to be as far away from Apollo and Diamond as possible. So, let me stay in my happy place where HGVC is HGVC and not Diamond until I have to deal with it.



And the reality is that, even if something happens, we'll have quite some time before anything actually changes, so a bunch of time to be moved out of our happy places and into the Real World. No need to jump out any sooner than needed.

We have 3 NYC and one upcoming KOA trip for this year, and I expect that these will still be *my* HGVC for those trips.

Cheers.


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## HitchHiker71 (Feb 5, 2020)

brp said:


> And the reality is that, even if something happens, we'll have quite some time before anything actually changes, so a bunch of time to be moved out of our happy places and into the Real World. No need to jump out any sooner than needed.
> 
> We have 3 NYC and one upcoming KOA trip for this year, and I expect that these will still be *my* HGVC for those trips.
> 
> Cheers.



This would especially be the case if Wyndham is chosen. It has been many years since Wyndham acquired Worldmark, 2006 if memory serves - and there really is little to no integration in existence between Club Wyndham and Worldmark from a timesharing standpoint apart from Club Pass, and there is still zero website inventory search and cross system reservation integration supported to this day. You have to call into Wyndham if you are a Club Wyndham owner to “see” if there’s any available Worldmark inventory and it costs $99 per reservation when you actually book a vacation across the two systems. So 14 years and counting with no systems integration. If HGVC were to be acquired, it’s a pretty safe bet it would be left alone for the foreseeable future, at least based upon past Wyndham performance. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Panina (Feb 5, 2020)

I own all at Florida affiliates except the July 4th Anderson, so it won’t sting as much if it happens.  I can lose money at Anderson but should be able to dispose of it because of location and week.  Meanwhile just waiting to see what happens.  I was thinking last year to sell but now realize those 8400 points for the mf I pay is great.  In Captiva now using some of those points. I do believe HGVC has minimal value if the Hilton name can’t be used and believe (hoping) it will all work out.


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## ocdb8r (Feb 6, 2020)

Nomad420 said:


> Starting to feel a bit of a bate and switch deal here.  I again am concerned as what will happen to properties that actually in Hilton Hotels.  What about our contracted Hilton Honors points transfer agreement?  How about the many affiliated properties that many owners now use?  So many questions left unanswered here but thank you for posting this reply.



First - don't panic.  All indications point to the fact that those looking to scoop up HGVC are interested in maintaining the Hilton brand and associated benefits.  There's no reason that another timeshare developer can't own the HGVC portfolio and maintain the status quo (just as Marriott has with the Hyatt Residence Club portfolio) EXCEPT that Hilton must agree to such an arrangement.

Second - nothing will happen to properties actually in or co-located with Hilton Hotels.  While they are "co-located" the HGVC rooms are actually separately owned.  This has happened to many other locations in the past (St. Regis left the Starwood system, where the Westin Princeville timeshare was co-located...the Four Seasons left Carlsbad while the co-located timeshare remained Four Seasons...and most pertinent, Westgate developed and sold a chunk of the now "Elara" in Las Vegas which Hilton then bought - they continue to own their units in that building).  Yes, it's a bit of a bummer but technically what you own will not change.

Finally - don't ever let yourself believe that "points transfer" is a deeded right.  It can be pulled or modified whenever HGVC or new owners feel like.



HitchHiker71 said:


> This would especially be the case if Wyndham is chosen. It has been many years since Wyndham acquired Worldmark, 2006 if memory serves - and there really is little to no integration in existence between Club Wyndham and Worldmark from a timesharing standpoint apart from Club Pass, and there is still zero website inventory search and cross system reservation integration supported to this day. You have to call into Wyndham if you are a Club Wyndham owner to “see” if there’s any available Worldmark inventory and it costs $99 per reservation when you actually book a vacation across the two systems. So 14 years and counting with no systems integration. If HGVC were to be acquired, it’s a pretty safe bet it would be left alone for the foreseeable future, at least based upon past Wyndham performance.



Don't be so confident that "integration" of the systems should be your only/main concern.  While there is little integration between Worldmark and Wyndham, there have been PLENTY of changes.  Wyndham has done everything possible to bleed as much money as possible out of Worldmark owners, drastically changed the points schedules at new resorts (admittedly, nothing new on HGVC) and has done plenty to marginalize Worldmark.  You also have to remember that Worldmark was the FIRST pure points based system and the contractual arrangements in place made it VERY hard for Wyndham to do their worst.  Only after several lawsuits by Worldmark owners against Wyndham was it left to remain a standalone system.  Integration is the least of my concerns.



dayooper said:


> Since I’m not a finance person, I really don’t know and, quite frankly, don’t care. It’s not my job to figure that out. I don’t know the inner workings of Wyndham’s finances. My guess is the only people that can answer that question are those involved. While I have appreciated your input on the potential merger, I am not enjoying this particular aspect of the discussion. I always try to reply to those that ask questions as it’s the polite thing to do, even if it’s something I really don’t want to talk about.



I also don't understand the premise of the question.  The assertion was made that "Wyndham can't pay cash to buy out HGV share holders. That would require taking on far too much debt."  Why not?  What is "too much" debt?  Too much for who?  Debt financing has never been at lower rates for such a sustained period of time.  There are PLENTY of lenders out there happy to load Wyndham up on debt (just as much as they would whatever vehicle Apollo created for a leveraged buy-out).  If the market values the assets being purchased with the debt, the only question remains whether they trust the management team to manage the assets in a way to create sufficient cash flow to service the debt.  I see no reason why Wyndham would be viewed any worse that Apollo/Diamond from that perspective.  Finally, you assume only an all-cash deal is attractive to shareholders.  They may be quite happy to take a cash+share offer that cashes them out some and keeps some exposure to the market with shares in the new entity.  Bottom line, Wyndham's name wouldn't even be in the mix if they hadn't submitted some sort of credible offer (backed up with whatever finance commitments required).


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## Nomad420 (Feb 6, 2020)

ocdb8r said:


> Second - nothing will happen to properties actually in or co-located with Hilton Hotels.  While they are "co-located" the HGVC rooms are actually separately owned.  This has happened to many other locations in the past (St. Regis left the Starwood system, where the Westin Princeville timeshare was co-located...the Four Seasons left Carlsbad while the co-located timeshare remained Four Seasons...and most pertinent, Westgate developed and sold a chunk of the now "Elara" in Las Vegas which Hilton then bought - they continue to own their units in that building).  Yes, it's a bit of a bummer but technically what you own will not change.
> 
> Finally - don't ever let yourself believe that "points transfer" is a deeded right.  It can be pulled or modified whenever HGVC or new owners feel like.


The example of the Carlsbad Four Seasons timeshare is not exactly comforting.  Since Four Seasons left the property, at least from my perspective, has to say the least suffered.  
Secondly, while I know it is not a "deeded right" the points transfer is in my contract and is quite specific.   If that is lost it would indeed affect my property value as it is would be a lost benefit and would be open to litigation.  This would not be the first time I was involved in a class action law suite for just this type of action (similar but had more to do with fees not "points").


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## brp (Feb 6, 2020)

Nomad420 said:


> Secondly, while I know it is not a "deeded right" the points transfer is in my contract and is quite specific.   If that is lost it would indeed affect my property value as it is would be a lost benefit and would be open to litigation.  This would not be the first time I was involved in a class action law suite for just this type of action (similar but had more to do with fees not "points").



I understand your concerns, in general. But I think that the points transfer option should be the least of our worries given the loss of HGVC point value in doing this. At present, I'm sure that HGVC are very happy to let owners do this as it is a lower-valued use of the points. IMO, taking away this option increases the value of the deed, but that's just me 

Cheers.


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## dayooper (Feb 6, 2020)

brp said:


> I understand your concerns, in general. But I think that the points transfer option should be the least of our worries given the loss of HGVC point value in doing this. At present, I'm sure that HGVC are very happy to let owners do this as it is a lower-valued use of the points. IMO, taking away this option increases the value of the deed, but that's just me
> 
> Cheers.



Is @Nomad420 talking about the club points or the HH conversion? I thought he was talking about club points


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## brp (Feb 6, 2020)

dayooper said:


> Is @Nomad420 talking about the club points or the HH conversion? I thought he was talking about club points



The original post about this up above said "Hilton Honors points transfer," so I figured it was HH. Club points would definitely be a big deal.

Cheers.


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## dayooper (Feb 6, 2020)

brp said:


> The original post about this up above said "Hilton Honors points transfer," so I figured it was HH. Club points would definitely be a big deal.
> 
> Cheers.



Yup, I see it now. Thanks!


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## Talent312 (Feb 6, 2020)

If Hilton declines to allow the new buyer to access its name and Hilton Honors:
Could not the buyer simply rebrand the product -- "Halitosis Grand Vacations?"
The rules say that all or any part of "the club" may be changed or discontinued.

Whatever anyone's contract may say. I suspect there's some clause in there
which incorporates this condition.
.


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## brp (Feb 6, 2020)

Talent312 said:


> If Hilton declines to allow the new buyer to access its name and Hilton Honors:
> Could not the buyer simply rebrand the product -- "Halitosis Grand Vacations?"
> The rules say that all or any part of "the club" may be changed or discontinued.
> 
> ...



They surely could. The argument being made here, and I agree, is that the Hilton name and the association with Hilton brings very much value to HGVC to the point where, without that, it may not be worth what they're paying to purchase it.

Cheers.


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## 1Kflyerguy (Feb 6, 2020)

brp said:


> They surely could. The argument being made here, and I agree, is that the Hilton name and the association with Hilton brings very much value to HGVC to the point where, without that, it may not be worth what they're paying to purchase it.
> 
> Cheers.



I agree, the affiliation with Hilton adds a lot value to HGV.  Many people seem to love the ability to convert club points to HH points.  Not as Tuggers value that, but i think that does appeal to many.  The call center hand-off where people making hotel reservations by phone get passed over to HGV seems to generate a reasonable of sales tour flow with people booking the sales packages.  Not to mention the value many of us place on the HH Amex points.

For whoever ends up as the owner, the value is less without the Hilton name.


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## tombanjo (Feb 6, 2020)

It could be seen as a bit of a poison pill, honor the name and relationship, or the premium brand goes poof.


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## vacationtime1 (Feb 6, 2020)

nuwermj said:


> I'm not seeing how Hilton's brand license answers my question. I'm suggesting that Wyndham Destinations cannot afford HGV. *My question is how can WYND finance a merger and satisfy HGV share holders.*





dayooper said:


> Since I’m not a finance person, I really don’t know and, quite frankly, don’t care. It’s not my job to figure that out. I don’t know the inner workings of Wyndham’s finances. My guess is the only people that can answer that question are those involved. While I have appreciated your input on the potential merger, I am not enjoying this particular aspect of the discussion. I always try to reply to those that ask questions as it’s the polite thing to do, even if it’s something I really don’t want to talk about.
> 
> I’m of the thought process that I want things to stay the same. If they are sold, I want to be as far away from Apollo and Diamond as possible. So, let me stay in my happy place where HGVC is HGVC and not Diamond until I have to deal with it.



Private equity partnerships finance acquisitions with debt.  Apollo would have HGVC take on a pile of debt to finance the purchase (and pay Apollo fees for doing the transaction) and then raise prices (management fees, etc.) to pay off that debt.  If HGVC's cash flow can cover that debt, all is well.  If not, Apollo will eventually jettison the carcass of HGVC after it has sucked it dry.

WYND would presumably use the same game plan.  I'm sure they (or their investment advisors) have a group of MBA finance types who know how to do this.


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## geist1223 (Feb 6, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> This would especially be the case if Wyndham is chosen. It has been many years since Wyndham acquired Worldmark, 2006 if memory serves - and there really is little to no integration in existence between Club Wyndham and Worldmark from a timesharing standpoint apart from Club Pass, and there is still zero website inventory search and cross system reservation integration supported to this day. You have to call into Wyndham if you are a Club Wyndham owner to “see” if there’s any available Worldmark inventory and it costs $99 per reservation when you actually book a vacation across the two systems. So 14 years and counting with no systems integration. If HGVC were to be acquired, it’s a pretty safe bet it would be left alone for the foreseeable future, at least based upon past Wyndham performance.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



There never will be a true and complete integration between Wyndham and Worldmark. It would take a Super Majority vote of Worldmark Members (not including Developer owned Points) to change Worldmark enough to allow for such an integration. Nor will there ever be online access for Club Pass. When you make a Club Pass Reservation (Wyndham or Worldmark) there has to be Points from the other system in the Pool. One reason a Wyndham Member might not see have much availability is only a very small % of Worldmark Members make Reservations through Club Pass. Thus not many Worldmark Points in the Pool. The Point Cost for a Worldmark Member is too high. I can Book a 2 Bedroom at Bali Hai through RCI for 10,000 Worldmark Points. But through Club Pass that same Reservation is 20,000 Worldmark Points. So why should a Worldmark Member ever use Club Pass?


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## HitchHiker71 (Feb 6, 2020)

geist1223 said:


> There never will be a true and complete integration between Wyndham and Worldmark. It would take a Super Majority vote of Worldmark Members (not including Developer owned Points) to change Worldmark enough to allow for such an integration. Nor will there ever be online access for Club Pass. When you make a Club Pass Reservation (Wyndham or Worldmark) there has to be Points from the other system in the Pool. One reason a Wyndham Member might not see have much availability is only a very small % of Worldmark Members make Reservations through Club Pass. Thus not many Worldmark Points in the Pool. The Point Cost for a Worldmark Member is too high. I can Book a 2 Bedroom at Bali Hai through RCI for 10,000 Worldmark Points. But through Club Pass that same Reservation is 20,000 Worldmark Points. So why should a Worldmark Member ever use Club Pass?



There was a clear indication directly from the COO at the annual Wyndham owners meeting in Austin this year that online reservations using Club Pass will be delivered. They didn’t clearly indicate this deliverable will come as part of Project Holiday - the newer online reservation system coming later this year - but it’s on the technology roadmap. The current “dial in” Club Pass reservation system was only “phase one” from what I heard with my own ears. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alwysonvac (Feb 6, 2020)

WalnutBaron said:


> For those hoping HGVC is eventually sold to Marriott or II (which is also owned by Marriott), be careful what you wish for. We Hyatt owners are feeling the full effect of Marriott ownership this year after absorbing huge MF increases in 2020, ranging from a *minimum of 8% up to as much as 40% over 2019 rates,* when Hyatt was still owned by Hyatt...



This caught _my_ attention, since Vistana was purchased by Marriott.

Your post is a little misleading. Some of the MFs were lower than 8%. I think the highest in the 2020 MF thread was 15% with the exception being the resort in Puerto Rico.

From the HYATT 2020 MF thread - https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/sticky-2020-hyatt-maintenance-fees.296295/
​_Charlieth0 posted_​_Hyatt Pinon Pointe EOY _​_*2.6% *increase over (last even year in 2018) _​​_echino posted _​_Hyatt Residence Club Bonita Springs, Coconut Plantation_​_2020 Total $1,418.34_​_*-1.8% decrease* _​​_HenryT posted_​_Hyatt Sunset Harbor _​_Total $1,763.57_​_*0.37% increase*_​​_You posted the following at 8% and indicated the main drivers for the increase_​_FYI, the proposed budget for Hyatt Highlands Inn calls for a stiff 7.9% increase from $1,590 in 2019 to $1,716 in 2020. Ugh. That said, all of the roofs--which were wood shingle and, therefore, a definite fire hazard--have been or are being replaced with fire resistant materials._​​_Here is the breakdown courtesy of the owners association president:_​​


*There was only one Hyatt resort in Puerto Rico that was in the 40% range and it was due to the one time special assessment*. These owners also had their MF reduced by 50% for two years and transaction fees waived if they used their points within the club. If they were paying full MF for the previous years maybe this won’t seem so steep at 21.27% quoted below (which excludes the one time special assessment).
_NOTE: Insurance rates typically increase after a hurricane._

grevas1 posted
_Hyatt Hacienda del Mar 2020-_
_Operating Fee- $1533.14 = 30% increase from 2019
Reserve fee- $350 = -7.72% decrease
M/F- $1883.14 = *21.27% increase*

Disaster Recovery Reserve (one time fee)= $420.10_
_Total fees for 2020- $2303.24 = 48.32% from 2019_

grevas1 posted
_According to the newsletter the management team sends out, if you call Hyatt the transaction fees will be waived if used within Hyatt Residence Club.  As for maintenance fees, my maintenance fees have been slashed/reduced by 50% for the last two years._
View attachment 13292


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## WalnutBaron (Feb 6, 2020)

alwysonvac said:


> This caught attention, since Vistana was purchased by Marriott.
> 
> Your post is a little misleading. Some of the MFs were lower than 8%. I think the highest in the 2020 MF thread was 15% with the exception being the resort in Puerto Rico.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the correction. FYI, here are the increases by resort as reported by Hyatt owners for 2020:

Hyatt Pinon Pointe (Sedona)     7.9%
Hyatt Hacienda Del Mar (Puerto Rico)    21.3% + Disaster Recovery Fee=48.3%
Hyatt Windward Pointe (Key West)  13.7%
Hyatt Beach House (Key West) 14%
Hyatt Highlands Inn (Carmel)  7.9%

Those are the resorts being reported so far.


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## geist1223 (Feb 7, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> There was a clear indication directly from the COO at the annual Wyndham owners meeting in Austin this year that online reservations using Club Pass will be delivered. They didn’t clearly indicate this deliverable will come as part of Project Holiday - the newer online reservation system coming later this year - but it’s on the technology roadmap. The current “dial in” Club Pass reservation system was only “phase one” from what I heard with my own ears.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



And Wyndham's other computer updates/changes have been so smooth and worked so well.


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## pedro47 (Feb 7, 2020)

The hedge funds managers are loving this, because it is driving down their cost to takeover this division of Hyatt. IMHO.


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## Mowogo (Feb 7, 2020)

All the uncertainty is why I’ve been happy to pick up Vegas low seasons, since I know I can rent them most years in a worst case scenario, since CES is in the low season for all the Vegas properties. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brp (Feb 7, 2020)

Mowogo said:


> All the uncertainty is why I’ve been happy to pick up Vegas low seasons, since I know I can rent them most years in a worst case scenario, since CES is in the low season for all the Vegas properties.



Are you doing Home Week bookings for CES, or just renting part weeks? Also, what venues are you using for renting, if I may ask?

Cheers.


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## Mowogo (Feb 7, 2020)

They would be home week, right now my portfolio is Paradise, which is right next to CES venues. 


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## CalGalTraveler (Feb 9, 2020)

@Mowogo Interesting strategy. We also own Paradise. It would be nice to have a fallback for years we dont need the points. What kind of profit do you realize? Where do you advertise? How far in advance do they book?


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## Mowogo (Feb 9, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @Mowogo Interesting strategy. We also own Paradise. It would be nice to have a fallback for years we dont need the points. What kind of profit do you realize? Where do you advertise? How far in advance do they book?



I haven’t actually rented out yet, but for reference one year before I discovered how easy it was to buy, I paid $1200 to stay in a 2BR at Wyndham Grand Desert during the same week


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## AwayWeGo (Feb 14, 2020)

Takeover of HGVC by Walmart or Amazon would have the most entertainment value.  

( Just saying. )  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## rog2867 (Feb 14, 2020)

ocdb8r said:


> My suggestion: If you care about this and have thinking similar to Hilton, I suggest you send an email to reinforce their fears.  Let them know that HGVC managed by Wyndham or Diamond will irreparably damage your view of the Hilton brand and that you'll consider leaving both Hilton and HGVC if something like this were to occur.  I guarantee you Wyndham and Diamond are pulling out every trick in the book to make Hilton feel ok about this...and we should be making sure Hilton knows this matters to owners.  You can send an email to the CEO's office (of course he won't be reading these, but they are more likely to get to the right hands) at christopher.nassetta@hilton.com with cc to ir@hilton.com.
> 
> I understand there may be some who think it might not be so bad being merged into Wyndham or Diamond, but I for one am not interested in becoming part of those behemoths.


I sent it to them both, even got a response from Chris office.  Saying thanks for my input.


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## MamaBess (Feb 17, 2020)

rog2867 said:


> I sent it to them both, even got a response from Chris office.  Saying thanks for my input.



Thank You for the email contacts.  I sent off our email this morning expressing our concerns over this matter. I did let them know that my husband and I opted NOT to purchase any more HGV products due to the possibility of the sale of HGV to Wyndham or Diamond. I also let them know that we have recommended the same course of action to my sister-in-law. I made it very clear that there is much discussion of this possible action in the vacation ownership world, and that those of us who have been loyal to HGV are very concerned. Thanks again for this info. I dont know how much good it will do, but we need to do what we can.


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## Tamaradarann (Feb 17, 2020)

MamaBess said:


> Thank You for the email contacts.  I sent off our email this morning expressing our concerns over this matter. I did let them know that my husband and I opted NOT to purchase any more HGV products due to the possibility of the sale of HGV to Wyndham or Diamond. I also let them know that we have recommended the same course of action to my sister-in-law. I made it very clear that there is much discussion of this possible action in the vacation ownership world, and that those of us who have been loyal to HGV are very concerned. Thanks again for this info. I dont know how much good it will do, but we need to do what we can.



I sent a letter also and included that if another company bought HGVC and significantly changed the flexibility of the reservation system that I would be selling all of my 6 HGVC timeshares.


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## Mr Smith (Feb 17, 2020)

IMHO Hilton wouldn’t care if you sold your hgvc properties. It has little benefit to them.  You need to let them know it will affect your view of Hilton and you will not only sell your hgvc properties, but also refuse to use Hilton hotels as you feel it tarnishes their name/brand.  By stating you won’t use Hilton Hotels you will hurt their direct revenue as well as the smaller 5% from hgvc.


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## Tamaradarann (Feb 18, 2020)

Mr Smith said:


> IMHO Hilton wouldn’t care if you sold your hgvc properties. It has little benefit to them.  You need to let them know it will affect your view of Hilton and you will not only sell your hgvc properties, but also refuse to use Hilton hotels as you feel it tarnishes their name/brand.  By stating you won’t use Hilton Hotels you will hurt their direct revenue as well as the smaller 5% from hgvc.



I didn't contact Hilton and Hilton is not the company that is being taken over.  I contacted HGVC.  They do care about resales since that is one of the factors negatively effecting their sales.  We also stay for many nights at HGVC properties and usually don't advertise resales to other guest.  That would change if HGVC is bought by another company and we start to sell our timeshares.


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## Mr Smith (Feb 19, 2020)

Maybe I’m missing something here.  

If the current HGVC ownership sells to another company, the current HGVC ownership will not care if you sell your properties as they will no longer own it. 

Although Hilton does not own HGVC, it is my understanding they have the right to prevent HGVC from continuing to use the Hilton name/brand.  If they do so, they can potentially kill the value of HGVC as it will no longer have access to Hilton customers for sales and also Hilton branding (a big part of HGVC’s value).  This may prevent a purchase of HGVC if they know upfront Hilton will pull the rights to the Hilton brand.

  Hilton does not want a new company with a current bad/lower reputation dragging the Hilton name through the mud.  This will hurt the Hilton brand and hotels. By telling Hilton (not HGVC) this will affect their brand, it will reinforce their concerns and hopefully push them to continue to try and kill this deal


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## tombanjo (Feb 19, 2020)

I agree that Hilton Hotels has more ability to influence this deal as they have rights to the name and access to their customer base which is a prime source for sales leads. The value of just a collection of management agreements with properties formerly known as Hilton is not as great as the present value with HGVC and Hilton closely working together.


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## Tamaradarann (Feb 19, 2020)

Mr Smith said:


> Maybe I’m missing something here.
> 
> If the current HGVC ownership sells to another company, the current HGVC ownership will not care if you sell your properties as they will no longer own it.
> 
> ...



I guess it depends on how your view the management of HGVC and who is making the decisions to sell HGVC.  My position came from the perspective that top HGVC management either controlled or influenced the decision to sell HGVC to a private equity firm.  Unless the private equity firm cleans house of top management they will continue to work in their current jobs for a new ultimate boss. 

However, I totally agree that the Hilton name is a major factor in this takeover.  I don't think that Hilton needs to be told about the effects that this takeover could have on their name.  They know these other timeshare companies better than we do.  Their ability to withhold the Hilton Brand Name is the ultimate hammer.  How they use it will be interesting.


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## terces (Feb 19, 2020)

Hilton and HGVC are so closely tied at the hip that I just cannot imagine them letting Diamond take over the important role HGVC plays in helping Hilton monetize some of its assets.  For instance at Ocean Towers, HGVC is in the process of converting 600 rooms from Hilton Hotels to HGVC timeshares.  Here is my "back of the napkin" math for the project: 600 rooms x 52 weeks x $53,000 per week = One Billion Six Hundred and Fifty Million Bucks.  Is Hilton really going to let these second rate operators take over the important job of selling these timeshares.  I doubt it.  Maybe Hilton and HGVC just simply need to privative the company and take it off the market


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## JIMinNC (Feb 19, 2020)

terces said:


> Hilton and HGVC are so closely tied at the hip that I just cannot imagine them letting Diamond take over the important role HGVC plays in helping Hilton monetize some of its assets.  For instance at Ocean Towers, HGVC is in the process of converting 600 rooms from Hilton Hotels to HGVC timeshares.  Here is my "back of the napkin" math for the project: 600 rooms x 52 weeks x $53,000 per week = One Billion Six Hundred and Fifty Million Bucks.  Is Hilton really going to let these second rate operators take over the important job of selling these timeshares.  I doubt it.  Maybe Hilton and HGVC just simply need to privative the company and take it off the market



I know Hilton Hotels bought the Hilton Waikoloa hotel in 2002 from the investment group that previously owned it, but I believe that when Hilton Hotels spun off HGVC into a new company they also spun off the hotel real estate assets they owned into an REIT owned by other investors. So if that is the case, any proceeds from the sale of Ocean Tower would not accrue to Hilton Hotels, but to the investors in the REIT.


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