# Fractional Air Travel: Researching on affordable options...



## Bourne (Nov 21, 2007)

It seems like I like living in a fractional world... fractional DC, Yacht etc. With cars, I did not want to share and ended up buying what I wanted for a long time last month. 

With a new baby due ( the 2Br joke on the other thread ), it is going to get a tad bit more expensive looking at 4 tix 4 - 5 times a year during peak seasons. 

I have taken an exhaustive look at On Demad charters and it seems they to tend to be close to First Class fare x 4. 

I created this thread to see if anyone can research/ throw some light on Fractional air travel. 

Never say never.


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Nov 21, 2007)

It really depends on where you live. There are a TON of them in my area of South Florida and the cost can be $3 per mile and can actually be equivalent to first class tix for a family of four.

One thing I noticed is that it is really only worth it for trips under 3 hours of fly time and the sweet spot is for flights of around 1-2 hours. Anything more may require a stop for refueling, etc.


----------



## NeilGoBlue (Nov 21, 2007)

Bourne said:


> It seems like I like living in a fractional world... fractional DC, Yacht etc. With cars, I did not want to share and ended up buying what I wanted for a long time last month.
> 
> With a new baby due ( the 2Br joke on the other thread ), it is going to get a tad bit more expensive looking at 4 tix 4 - 5 times a year during peak seasons.
> 
> ...



I've begun my research... I'm still a couple years away..

I don't know enough to even ask the right questions!

But what I have learned.. it's incredibly expensive, and if you are traveling for only vacations (as opposed to business where you might be able to justify it), you can't justify it economically.  

I will start with a jet card to limit my exposure and to learn more about the service and the different jets.

The VLJs intrigue me as does the avantair as does pilatus.. but once again, I don't know enough.  I'm purposely staying away from calling the companies, because i'm afraid i'll get sucked in.  I keep telling myself 2010...2010


----------



## Bourne (Nov 21, 2007)

Same here 

The one's on my list are Sentient and Marquis Jet. 

I like Marquis jet's flat pricing. No hidden charges and no gimmicks. However, a defined usage of 100K+ per year is a bit too steep for me or the corp.

A more reasonable option is Sentient. Evening though the buy-in is around 100-250K, there are multile offers out there that can let you have the 250K level at 50-100K. Amex and FS Residence Club comes to mind. The good thing about a Sentient membership is that the funds act as a debit account without any expiration. They also have a last minute option available.

The catch is that they nickel and dime you on every possible thing including overnight stays for crew. 

http://www.sentient.com/membership/travelcard.asp


----------



## Tedpilot (Nov 22, 2007)

Depending on your frequency of travel a straight charter jet may be the best option.  Bill is correct in the sweet spots w/ the jets.  The smaller jets only can reasonably go about 3.5-4 hours in a single leg and they are the most affordable as well.  Anything outside of the CONUS will cost you dearly.  Jet fuel is running about $5/gal now and don't expect it to drop anytime soon.  All of the fractionals I have looked in have clauses that cover the additional costs of a trip, fuel, FBO fees, embarkation, etc...  Do due diligence like you never have before so you know exactly what it will cost.  Also, on a typical Beech 400 or older Lear 20 series a family of four would max the plane out for a 3 hour leg...little planes hate weight and have minimal storage for luggage...ask the questions.  In the AV business we have a saying that no question is a dumb question.

If you are considering moderate usage or more (15-20 hrs/mo) I would compare buying/leasing an older Lear or King Air.  You'll find that there is significant markup in the real costs of operating the aircraft vs what they (Fractionals) charge you.  Also consider a Cessna King Air...much less expensive and has plenty of lift capacity you'll just get there much slower.  You can learn to fly the King yourself in a few months saving yet more money.

If you have any specific questions about the flying biz, let me know...

Ted


----------



## NeilGoBlue (Nov 22, 2007)

Tedpilot said:


> If you have any specific questions about the flying biz, let me know...
> 
> Ted



Ted,

What are your thoughts about the safety of the single engine planes.. i.e pilatus along with fact that it is a turboprop vs a jet?


----------



## Bourne (Nov 22, 2007)

I do have a Private Pilot's license with Instrument rating. However I have not flown a single hour in the past three years. Things a l'll kid can do to you.  

Once I do get back, I would like to get my MultiEngine rating. However, to me, flying is purely recreational.


----------



## NeilGoBlue (Nov 22, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> It really depends on where you live. There are a TON of them in my area of South Florida and the cost can be $3 per mile and can actually be equivalent to first class tix for a family of four.
> 
> One thing I noticed is that it is really only worth it for trips under 3 hours of fly time and the sweet spot is for flights of around 1-2 hours. Anything more may require a stop for refueling, etc.



Bill,

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the big deal if you have to stop for refueling? (remember, i was told there was no dumb questions!)  If I'm flying from maryland to california, and I stop somewhere to take on some fuel, stretch the legs... is it really a big deal?  Am I missing something?


----------



## Tedpilot (Nov 22, 2007)

Neil -

Single engine planes are very safe, no worries.  The pilatus PC-12 is a great aircraft IMO.  I think of it akin to a modern King Air, just more efficient for it's payload capacity and much smaller.  It however, does not have the lift capacity that one might hope for.  It is best suited for what could be driven in a day vs flying across the US.

I'd like to chime in on the stopping for fuel.  Fractional usage is based on flight hours.  If going from say, DC to LA a small Lear, Beechjet or similar would have to stop whereas most Gulfstreams & Citations could make it one hop.  If you assumed they all flew the same speed at climb, cruise, and descent it would take approximately 45-60 minutes longer of flight time and 2-2.5 hours in total time of the trip in the smaller plane plus additional FBO & landing fees.  Keep in mind that the smaller corporate type aircraft are usually significantly slower than commercial aircraft (10-30%) too which will make the trip even longer.  Mid sized corporate jets and larger all fly similar speeds of the airliners.  Bottom line, in a smaller aircraft that fuel stop could cost you a lot of money.

The most significant limiting factor w/ smaller planes is takeoff performance at high altitude...Denver, Vail, Aspen, Reno, etc...  Those locations will require a significantly reduced fuel load just to get off of the ground and then drive additional fuel stops.  Forget summertime in some of these places as a legal takeoff won't be possible.  If you forsee flying into high pressure altitude locations then a powerful twin turboprop or jet is an absolute must, even then, you're going to be limited.

To get a real idea of costs during due diligence ask to see recent billings for members that are using the aircraft you think you want with a trip of similar distance.  Don't settle for the fee structure they tout, review actual bills to see how the additional fees add up and what they are for.

Bourne - Sounds like you have a great perspective on flying.  I have unfortunately witnessed many people that take up flying and don't keep up with it and eventually bend a plane or worse.  It is a serious business and takes regular practice and studying to maintain not only your currencies but your proficiency which is even more important.

Ted


----------



## MULTIZ321 (Nov 22, 2007)

Ted,

You've brought a whole additional level of expertise to the Tug family. Your posts on flying and the aviation industry have been very informative. I appreciate your taking the time to share your knowledge.

Have also enjoyed your comments on the Tug Destination Club Forum too.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.

Richard


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Nov 22, 2007)

MULTIZ321 said:


> Ted,
> 
> You've brought a whole additional level of expertise to the Tug family. Your posts on flying and the aviation industry have been very informative. I appreciate your taking the time to share your knowledge.
> 
> ...



I will second that....thanks Ted.

Are you the same Ted as this company?

http://www.flyted.com/index.html


----------



## Tedpilot (Nov 22, 2007)

Thanks Richard & Bill - Happy T-day to you and everyone else as well.  I do not fly for Ted aka United.  I fly for a much bigger organization...the best in the world hands-down...the USAF.


----------



## NeilGoBlue (Nov 22, 2007)

Tedpilot said:


> Thanks Richard & Bill - Happy T-day to you and everyone else as well.  I do not fly for Ted aka United.  I fly for a much bigger organization...the best in the world hands-down...the USAF.



Ted, Very cool.. Thanks for protecting us....

Ted and Bill...

I was thinking of supplementing my travel with a jet card.  The problem is that I would take easy flights commercial and take the hard flights with the jet card or fractional.  So, If I was flying into the bahamas, cabo son lucas, or jackson hole, my thoughts were to be use the card.  I have a family of four with two young ones.. so transferring planes, etc is a PITA..

But, what I hear you saying is that my plan has a few holes in it...

Given what I'm saying, what planes do you reccomend?


----------



## Tedpilot (Nov 22, 2007)

Neil - There are many aircraft that would meet your needs.  An expert in the business would have the best information on range/payload capabilities regarding their fleet.  However, looking at the least expensive aircraft to meet your reqs of four pax and flights up to approximately five hours brings several aircraft to mind.

Smaller aircraft that carry up to seven pax for shorter legs or your family for longer legs I would look into late model Leers...specifically, model 45 or higher in numerics.  Some of the recent small Cessna Citations would fit well and directly compete with the Leers.  Personally, I like the Leers better and they have excellent performance capabilities for the high PA (pressure altitude) locations (Jackson Hole).

If you wanted some flexibility to carry a slightly larger crowd upwards of ten-twelve people, perhaps for entertaining or business then your best options would likely be an older Gulfstream 3 series (G3).  Similar in size, range and cost point would be the Hawkkers.  With both of these aircraft you'll want to look into older aircraft as the latest varieties are extremely expensive (i.e. G5, G550, et al).  These aircraft will also have cabin attendants where as the smaller will not.  Basically, a crew of three vs just two pilots and inflight meal service is possible where as in the smaller aircraft it will not be.

During due diligence you'll want to know about a few pieces of avionics and certifications that are imperative for your cost and safety.  If you fly into mountainous terrain areas you'll want to know if the aircraft is equipped w/ EGPWS (enhanced ground proximity warning system).  In the early 90s we/USAF had a C130 crash into a ridge departing Jackson Hole at night.  Had they had this system they likely would have survived and climbed above the rising ridge.  Trust me that it is important for any location w/ rapidly rising terrain around it and the older system of regular GPWS does not cut it (the difference is in a feed of position via GPS compared to a database that correlates to aircraft altitude and flight projectory and displayed on a screen with visual/aural warnings for the crew).  Next, you'll want to ensure that the aircraft is equipped w/ GPS and is RNAV capable (route navigation performance specifications).  This allows the aircraft to fly virtually direct legs between airports vs overflying ground based navigational aids...this saves you money because you'll get there sooner as the distance to travel is shorter.  Lastly, the aircraft needs to be RVSM (reduced vertical separation minima) certified.  The class A airspace (18,000'-FL600) above the CONUS used to be broken down such that aircraft in opposite directions had 2000' of separation.  With the introduction of RVSM that has been reduced to 1000'.  Only aircraft that are RVSM certified are allowed to fly between FLs (flight levels) 290-410 inclussive.  Four points here...fewer deviations are required at higher altitudes for bad weather (thunderstorms), the ride is much smoother (less turb), the aircraft will typically fly faster (less time enroute = $) and fuel effifciency is much better the higher you can get w/ jet engines even though you are flying faster.  Most of the jets that you will consider will have ceilings of FL410-450.  However, even to transit the RVSM airpsace you must be certified unless they can clear traffic out of your way which is nearly impossible anywhere east of the Mississippi River.  To note, that altitude block will expand over time to include all altitudes between 18,000 & FL600.  Thus, lower altitude = slower, rougher, longer and more costly to you.

There are many great aircraft out there for various needs.  Don't let the age of an aircraft spook you, they are not like cars.  A 20-30 year old aircraft could and should be as good as new.  Engines, airframes and avionics undergo routine and mandated inspections and overhauls on a regular basis as mandated by the FAA.

Let me know if I can help guide you any further.

Ted


----------



## NeilGoBlue (Nov 22, 2007)

Wow.. thanks Ted... I'm saving this post for later when I'm ready to purchase... you've been very generous.. thanks!


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Nov 23, 2007)

When I looked into Marquis Jet, it was approximately $5,000 per hour of fly time (whees up to wheels down).

I personally determined that (for me) it could make sense to fly short trips (under 2 hours) with 6 people averaging $833 per person per hour. It would actually be economical to fly to the Caribbean and hit an island 45 minutes from South Florida. It is MUCH cheaper to charter a propeller plane vs a jet for these shorter trips.

Anything more (i.e. 5 hours) would be so expensive (in total) that it would make more sense to fly those trips commercial.


----------



## Carl D (Nov 23, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> When I looked into Marquis Jet, it was approximately $5,000 per hour of fly time (whees up to wheels down).


I have also been a proffesional pilot for nearly 20 years.
Keep in mind that Marquis Jet is not fractional ownership, but rather buying a chunk of charter time all at once.
One of the big differences is there is no recoup of your initial investment.


----------



## Carl D (Nov 23, 2007)

One thing to add:
I know there are some well off folks here in this forum, but most should keep in mind that jet ownership, even fractional ownership, is a big boy's game. Depending on how heavy you get into it, we're talking about many millions up front, tens of thousands every month in management fees, and a few thousand dollars every hour you fly on top off it all.


----------



## NeilGoBlue (Nov 23, 2007)

Carl D said:


> One thing to add:
> I know there are some well off folks here in this forum, but most should keep in mind that jet ownership, even fractional ownership, is a big boy's game. Depending on how heavy you get into it, we're talking about many millions up front, tens of thousands every month in management fees, and a few thousand dollars every hour you fly on top off it all.



Yep...The dollar amount blew me away.... It'll be a few years yet... (and that is if everything goes right).... I'll probably start with a jet card.. that way I can manage my risk and outlay..


----------



## Tedpilot (Nov 23, 2007)

Carl is right, if you buy fractional or otherwise, it is big bucks even for the super wealthy.  Jetcards and the likes get you the services without huge outlays so they are attractive.  I read an article earlier tonight that the founders of Google just bought a Boeing 767...that my friends will be expensive just to park it!  Maybe they'll hire me to be a pilot?  I knew of two guys a number of years ago that got out of the USAF and they were U2's pilots for their world tour flying an old 707 around the world.  That would have been very intersting hanging with the band and being paid to fly them around.


----------



## Bourne (Nov 24, 2007)

Carl D said:


> One thing to add:
> I know there are some well off folks here in this forum, but most should keep in mind that jet ownership, even fractional ownership, is a big boy's game. Depending on how heavy you get into it, we're talking about many millions up front, tens of thousands every month in management fees, and a few thousand dollars every hour you fly on top off it all.



My sweet spot would be around $1,500 per hour. $1,000 would be a slam dunk. 

I am leaning towards Pre-Paid cards with no expiration like Sentient. They do not require a large chunk of change upfront and do not have monthly fee like fractionals. IMHO, it almost works as a debit card.


----------



## Carl D (Nov 24, 2007)

Bourne said:


> My sweet spot would be around $1,500 per hour. $1,000 would be a slam dunk.
> 
> I am leaning towards Pre-Paid cards with no expiration like Sentient. They do not require a large chunk of change upfront and do not have monthly fee like fractionals. IMHO, it almost works as a debit card.


I am actually a captain for one of the main fractional companies, however I'm unfamiliar with Sentient. 
I'm curious, what type of aircraft can you get for $1.5g's/hour without monthly fees? Is there any up front purchase cost? 
That just seems like a ridiculously low price. Perhaps it's not a jet?


----------



## Carl D (Nov 24, 2007)

Tedpilot said:


> During due diligence you'll want to know about a few pieces of avionics and certifications that are imperative for your cost and safety.  If you fly into mountainous terrain areas you'll want to know if the aircraft is equipped w/ EGPWS (enhanced ground proximity warning system).  In the early 90s we/USAF had a C130 crash into a ridge departing Jackson Hole at night.  Had they had this system they likely would have survived and climbed above the rising ridge.  Trust me that it is important for any location w/ rapidly rising terrain around it and the older system of regular GPWS does not cut it (the difference is in a feed of position via GPS compared to a database that correlates to aircraft altitude and flight projectory and displayed on a screen with visual/aural warnings for the crew).  Next, you'll want to ensure that the aircraft is equipped w/ GPS and is RNAV capable (route navigation performance specifications).  This allows the aircraft to fly virtually direct legs between airports vs overflying ground based navigational aids...this saves you money because you'll get there sooner as the distance to travel is shorter.  Lastly, the aircraft needs to be RVSM (reduced vertical separation minima) certified.  The class A airspace (18,000'-FL600) above the CONUS used to be broken down such that aircraft in opposite directions had 2000' of separation.  With the introduction of RVSM that has been reduced to 1000'.  Only aircraft that are RVSM certified are allowed to fly between FLs (flight levels) 290-410 inclussive.  Four points here...fewer deviations are required at higher altitudes for bad weather (thunderstorms), the ride is much smoother (less turb), the aircraft will typically fly faster (less time enroute = $) and fuel effifciency is much better the higher you can get w/ jet engines even though you are flying faster.  Most of the jets that you will consider will have ceilings of FL410-450.  However, even to transit the RVSM airpsace you must be certified unless they can clear traffic out of your way which is nearly impossible anywhere east of the Mississippi River.  To note, that altitude block will expand over time to include all altitudes between 18,000 & FL600.  Thus, lower altitude = slower, rougher, longer and more costly to you.


Ted has given an excellent summary of some avionics packages to look for when purchasing an aircraft.
One additional item that Ted may have forgot, is TCAS II (traffic collision avoidance system). Many smaller aircraft may have a less sophisticated system, either TCAD or TCAS I. 
TCAS II will actually issue the crew RA's (resolution advisories) if the TCAS sees an iminant conflict. Basically it screams at the crew to climb or descend. The cheaper systems will just issue a TA (traffic advisory), but it's up to the crew to find and maneuver (I have no idea how to spell that word) around the conflict.
As for general aircraft systems-- remember redundancy is good. The less expensive, smaller aircraft will likely have less redundancy built in the aircraft systems.


----------



## Tedpilot (Nov 24, 2007)

Carl is correct, TCAS II has saved my hiney more than once!  Of all the gadgets in the cockpit that is one that I look at quite a bit.  TCAS is sweet, it is like having a miniature air traffic radar that you can see all of the other aircraft around you and what altitude they are at...those that are "participating" anyway.

Neil/Bourne - Don't get frazzled w/ the acronyms of the equipment.  Just realize that if you get into an older aircraft they may not have some of these very helpful and worthwhile systems, particularly updated versions.  Carl and I left some more common systems out that I would assume on his part and certainly for me that any modern aircraft would have (e.g. weather radar).

Ted


----------



## Bourne (Nov 24, 2007)

Carl D said:


> I am actually a captain for one of the main fractional companies, however I'm unfamiliar with Sentient.
> I'm curious, what type of aircraft can you get for $1.5g's/hour without monthly fees? Is there any up front purchase cost?
> That just seems like a ridiculously low price. Perhaps it's not a jet?



I have not found an option yet in that price range.  

What I mean was that if an option in that price range existed, it would be something that I would sign up for. 

Right now, Sentient and its comparable options charge 2.5-3k/hr at the mminimum on an older Light jet. I would have to wait sometime for those numbers to make sense or the industry's entry level price point would have to drop to the level I want.


----------



## Fractional Center (Nov 25, 2007)

*Fractionals are the wave of the future*

If you want to learn about fractionals, there is a new website that launched on 11/22/07. It’s the World’s first fractional buyer’s superstore. The website, The Fractional Concierge brings together ALL assets sold as fractionals: Real estate, aircraft, sea vessels, automobiles, recreational vehicles, and everything else from handbags and artwork to dogs and organically grown meats. The website gives you detailed information, pricing and photos on hundreds of fractional assets so you can peruse the many different options.


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Nov 25, 2007)

Fractional Center said:


> If you want to learn about fractionals, there is a new website that launched on 11/22/07. It’s the World’s first fractional buyer’s superstore. The website, The Fractional Concierge brings together ALL assets sold as fractionals: Real estate, aircraft, sea vessels, automobiles, recreational vehicles, and everything else from handbags and artwork to dogs and organically grown meats. The website gives you detailed information, pricing and photos on hundreds of fractional assets so you can peruse the many different options.



Welcome to TUG...I edited your post so the link works correctly.

Also, I want to welcome you as a new TUG member and want to encourage you to post relevant information on the topic of fractional ownership, rather than just announcing a new web site.

Some people may view your post as spam, but I will allow it to remain as you are providing a great new service. 

Good luck with your site and we look forward to you contributing to this forum.


----------



## Fractional Center (Nov 27, 2007)

*Thanks for the opportunity*

Dear Moderator, Thank you for the opportunity to post my Press Release to your site. So many great things are happening in the Fractional Industry. I would welcome the chance to submit information. I write about fractional breaking news every day in the blog on my website. How often would you like me to post? I don't want to overdue my welcome.

Daniel


----------



## Steamboat Bill (Nov 27, 2007)

Fractional Center said:


> Dear Moderator, Thank you for the opportunity to post my Press Release to your site. So many great things are happening in the Fractional Industry. I would welcome the chance to submit information. I write about fractional breaking news every day in the blog on my website. How often would you like me to post? I don't want to overdue my welcome.
> 
> Daniel



I suggest that you create a new thread on this forum titled "Fractional Industry News" and you can post updates to that thread perhaps once a week or so. 

We are "primarily" interested in fractional properties, rather than yachts, planes, cars, etc.

Give it a try, I will edit your post for you (if you want) if there is a problem.


----------

