# Too Heavy to Fly



## Rose Pink (Aug 25, 2008)

DH called me yesterday--fuming--about his flight delay.  The airline had seated all the passengers and taxied out to the runway for takeoff and then decided the plane was too heavy for the high altitude and the high temperature so they taxied back to the terminal and asked a dozen volunteers to get off to make the plane lighter.  Neither he nor I have ever heard of such a thing.

The episode delayed the flight by two hours.  DH is fuming because the altitude at this airport hasn't changed recently   and the temperatures are not unusual, either.  One would assume that since this is a busy international airport that flies these planes to this destination on a daily basis, that flying conditions would be a known factor before loading all the passengers and taxiing out to the runway.

Any insight?

In case you are wondering, those kicked off the flight received $400, meals and accomodations for another flight.  It's just that not everyone has the luxury of changing plans on such short notice--especially business travelers.


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## Steamboat Bill (Aug 25, 2008)

you think they would have just removed the luggage.


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## AwayWeGo (Aug 25, 2008)

*Clear The Cheap Seats.*

Shux, you'd think they'd just 86 all the passengers flying on PriceLine tickets. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Cathyb (Aug 25, 2008)

Which airline and airport?  We saw it happen in Cabo San Lucas last December -- they claimed it was due to the snow in Chicago.  Fortunately it wasn't our flight.


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## IreneLF (Aug 25, 2008)

I've never heard of such a thing either.
On one of our flights (to So America) we were told that they need to stop someplace to refuel, not because of distance but because of temps and altitude, and that they underfill the tank deliberately. 
 Maybe they screwed up?


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## borntotravel (Aug 25, 2008)

First of all, they aren't going to remove just the luggage.  Since 9/11, no passenger - no luggage (unless, of course, the airline loses it and then they are happy to carry hundreds of bags without the passenger!).

They should have figured this out before they left the gate, but be thankful that they caught it before takeoff.  If the plane was over weight, if it took off without reducing the load,  instead of getting to your destination late, you might not have gotten there at all.  Which would you prefer?  Have you not heard of all the plane crashes over the past week???? Better safe than sorry!


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## charford (Aug 25, 2008)

I was on a flight where they decided before boarding that they needed to make the load lightweight. I think that this was because of the extreme turbulence around the airport. It was extreeemely bumpy on takeoff.  So, they decided that people were to be boarded in priority of when they checked in. I was travelling with a group of middle school students and after they saw them boarding the aircraft - all under 100 pounds each - they decided that everyone else could board. BTW, it was so bumpy, some of my students were making out their wills.  

Perhaps the air temperature made the air conditions around the airport  not favorable for a loaded plane of that type?


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## Passepartout (Aug 25, 2008)

As temperatures rise air becomes less dense making wings and engines less efficient. The small airplane I fly can accommodate (read:fly with) 4 people in winter and just 2 on warm days. I'm sure you've read about the bulking up of people recently. FAA used to allow airlines to use 170 lbs as an average, and if you've looked around, people and luggage are bigger.

I suppose the pilot could have had each passenger stand on a scale then seated each one to be sure the weight was distributed properly, but that isn't likely to happen either. 

In the end, it's the pilot's discretion whether to fly a given mission or not. If he felt it was unsafe to fly the load/fuel/air density, so be it. Far better to lift off a 6000 foot runway at 5000 feet than to need 8000 to get it done.

Jim Ricks


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## pointsjunkie (Aug 25, 2008)

they also could have had heavy cargo y=that they were being paid to transport so after figuring the weight the people had to go. we had that once, a crate of lobsters came on board in cargo and they had to lighten the plane (with people).


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## Fletcher921 (Aug 25, 2008)

I would have been happy to deplaned and received a freebie flight later...


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## DEROS (Aug 25, 2008)

*Fuel Cost*

I have read that sometimes airlines will not fuel up all the way or not at all because it would be cheaper to buy fuel at the next airport destination.  I think someone did a cost analysis and figured it would be cheaper to comp passengers $400 than purchase fuel to fly the people.  The voucher really does not cost the airlines all that much money, especially if the next flight you book is not full.


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## Rose Pink (Aug 25, 2008)

borntotravel said:


> ...
> They should have figured this out before they left the gate, ....


 
That's the point.  DH has flown this route several times this summer under the same circumstances and this is the first time someone decided it was unsafe?  Of course we'd rather be safe than sorry (_duh_!) but it does give one cause to wonder if the other flights were unsafe but flew anyway.  With another family member making this same flight later this week, I am feeling quite uneasy.

Thanks, everyone, for your responses.   DH is platinum ff and with all the years and millions of miles he has flown, he has never had this happen to him nor heard of it happening to other passengers.  Sign of the times?


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## Rose Pink (Aug 25, 2008)

DEROS said:


> I have read that sometimes airlines will not fuel up all the way or not at all because it would be cheaper to buy fuel at the next airport destination. ....


 
I've heard that, too.  Reading the thread on gasoline prices it would make sense since gas in SLC is way higher than gas in Houston (are they still having gas wars at the stations in Houston?).  Does the cost of airline fuel mirror the cost of gasoline for automobiles in any given area?


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## Rose Pink (Aug 25, 2008)

Fletcher921 said:


> I would have been happy to deplaned and received a freebie flight later...


 
DH and many other business travelers just don't have that option.  They have to be at work on time.


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## Ann-Marie (Aug 25, 2008)

We have had 2 scenerios.  Once, they told us that our luggage was being held until the next flight because of the weight.  Another time, there was 6 stand by passengers that, after sitting in the seats they were given, were told sorry, you now have to get off because of the weight.  One person was tiny, and they decided she could stay.  Man, I would hate for an airline to tell ME to get off because I was too big.  Not surprised if that will be next.


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## Rose Pink (Aug 25, 2008)

Ann-Marie said:


> We have had 2 scenerios. Once, they told us that our luggage was being held until the next flight because of the weight. Another time, there was 6 stand by passengers that, after sitting in the seats they were given, were told sorry, you now have to get off because of the weight. One person was tiny, and they decided she could stay. Man, I would hate for an airline to tell ME to get off because I was too big. Not surprised if that will be next.


 
How recently did these incidents happen?  How do they know how heavy the plane is?  I don't see them weighing the plane--do they weigh the luggage before it is loaded on board?  Is all this just a guesstimate?  One would think the airlines would know how heavy a full plane is and make fuel accomodations or just not sell that many seats if they can't accomodate the weight.  None of this makes any sense to me.  They overbook, they kick paying passengers off, what next?


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## Art (Aug 25, 2008)

We have had this with flights out of Las Vegas and Salt Lake City.

In both cases, it was an extremely hot day which either increased the distance required for the plane to take off or required a lighter load so the plane could take off in the available length of runway.  

In the Las Vegas case, the tower changed the runway to be used after we had taxied out meaning that even if the pax load was correct initially, it no longer was in light of a different runway length and wind conditions.

In the Salt Lake City case, an extra fuel load had been because of the unexpected need to fly around storms on the way to its destination which had not been included in the original flight plan.  

In other words, there are legitimate reasons for unloading passengers even after departure from the gate.

Art


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## Rose Pink (Aug 25, 2008)

Art said:


> We have had this with flights out of Las Vegas and Salt Lake City.
> 
> In both cases, it was an extremely hot day which either increased the distance required for the plane to take off or required a lighter load so the plane could take off in the available length of runway.
> 
> ...


 
Both Vegas and SLC are hot in the summer.  High temperatures are not unusual at all.  It was no hotter yesterday than it has been other days this summer.  As for the need to fly around storms, wouldn't the pilot know that before he taxied out?  I can see that there are legitimate reasons to lighten the load but after departing the gate?  That just seems like very poor planning.  It is rather disconcerting to me.


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## Passepartout (Aug 25, 2008)

Rose Pink said:


> Both Vegas and SLC are hot in the summer.  High temperatures are not unusual at all.  It was no hotter yesterday than it has been other days this summer.  As for the need to fly around storms, wouldn't the pilot know that before he taxied out?  I can see that there are legitimate reasons to lighten the load but after departing the gate?  That just seems like very poor planning.  It is rather disconcerting to me.



Rose Pink, you haven't said what airport this occurred at, but in fact yesterday, the density altitude here in the intermountain West was higher than usual. Perhaps the pilot of the affected aircraft taxied across a scale or his aircraft is equipped with monitors that alert to an overgross situation. Customarily the 1st officer programs the flight computer as the aircraft is enroute to the active runway while the pilot is at the controls. The computer wouldn't be aware of the overgross until it was away from the gate. 

Get over it! How 'disconcerting' would it be if they had attempted takeoff and the computer or the pilot's judgement had screamed ABORT! ABORT! at about 150 knots as the end of the runway gets too close to fly over. Then the flaps, reversers, brakes all get deployed, THEN they go back to the gate so the aircraft can be looked over by the mechanics.

The passengers, instead of being miffed, should have thanked the flight crew for using good judgement, and allowing them to fly again tomorrow. Aircraft, as good and safe as they are, are still subject to the condition of the air they fly through. 

Jim Ricks


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## DebBrown (Aug 25, 2008)

A few years ago we were on a flight Christmas Day to Hawaii and about 20 passengers were not allowed to board because the plane had too much fuel.  They tried to redistribute or remove the fuel with no luck so the last boarding group got booted.  We each got a whole row to lay down and nap but I felt bad for those stranded.

Deb


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## grest (Aug 25, 2008)

This happened to us, too, on a snowy night.  No passengers volunteered to get off, with or without compensation, since we knew it was likely the last flight out.  As a result, they asked for volunteers to leave their luggage behind, to be delivered the next day, for a free round trip ticket.  Most of the passengers volunteered.  It was a good day!
Connie


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## clsmit (Aug 25, 2008)

I had this happen with TWA (when it existed) on their smallest planes. They'd count noses and move people around on the plane to shift the weight around. Then if it was still too heavy by their estimation they'd ask someone to get off with compensation. This was about 10 years ago, well before the current gas and airline prices. So it's not new to the industry.


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## Ann-Marie (Aug 25, 2008)

Both of my situations happened before the fuel price increases.  I can't imagine what happens now because of the fuel prices.


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## Carl D (Aug 25, 2008)

Is there a specific question here? If so, perhaps I can shed some light..


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## Jan (Aug 25, 2008)

Yes, I was on a Northwest flight and out of Memphis they asked for volunteers because the flight was to heavy.  We were going to Kansas City and it was a very hot day.  I volunteered and got a bump.
                   Jan:whoopie:


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## Rose Pink (Aug 25, 2008)

Passepartout said:


> .... Perhaps the pilot of the affected aircraft taxied across a scale or his aircraft is equipped with monitors that alert to an overgross situation. *Customarily the 1st officer programs the flight computer as the aircraft is enroute to the active runway while the pilot is at the controls. The computer wouldn't be aware of the overgross until it was away from the gate.*
> 
> Get over it! ...


 
Thank you for the explanation.  I can "get over it" when I understand what happened.


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## Rose Pink (Aug 25, 2008)

Carl D said:


> Is there a specific question here? If so, perhaps I can shed some light..


 
Yes, I've asked several specific questions in this thread.  To reiterate, they are:

1.  Why was this flight different than the other flights that DH has taken under the same conditions (same aircraft, same airport, same destination, same weather)?  

2. How do the airlines determine weight?  At what point do they know (or estimate) the weight?  

3. Why aren't these things known prior to taxiing to the runway?  (Is it what Jim suggested about driving over a scale after leaving the terminal?)

Thank you.


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## Carl D (Aug 25, 2008)

Rose Pink said:


> Yes, I've asked several specific questions in this thread.  To reiterate, they are:
> 
> 1.  Why was this flight different than the other flights that DH has taken under the same conditions (same aircraft, same airport, same destination, same weather)?
> 
> ...


Just a side note--
All these take off distances are predicated on the worst possible scenario. 
For example, under normal conditions the aircraft may need 4,000 ft of a 12,000 ft runway to depart.
However, several contingencies are looked at:

- Can the aircraft accelerate to V1 (takeoff decision speed), and then abort the take off, and stop in the remaining runway?
- Can it accelerate to V1, lose an engine, and continue to accelerate to Vr (rotation speed), then cross the departure end of the runway at a minimum of 35 ft.
- Can the aircraft climb at a minimum of 200 ft per mile with one engine inoperative? (or more if terrain dictates).

If the above examples can not be achieved, weight must be reduced.
These are just a few examples of what happens that the passenger will (hopefully) never see.

Feel free to ask more questions if I didn't explain adequately.


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## x3 skier (Aug 26, 2008)

To add what Carl D very well explained, if you ever heard the Cockpit Crew tell you over the PA, "We are waiting for the final paperwork", they are waiting for the final bag/passenger count so they can compute all the distances required for takeoff, etc. if dispatch has not already done it for them.

High Altitude airports are OK on "Standard or Cold Days" but when it gets hot, takeoff performance rapidly decreases.

BTW, if anyone asks me my weight, I always tell them I am a FAA Standard Passenger.  

Cheers


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## Rose Pink (Aug 26, 2008)

Carl D said:


> Feel free to ask more questions if I didn't explain adequately.


 
You did great, Carl.  Thank you.  It is the temperature that has DH and I stumped as the temp that day is not unusual for our climate--sometimes it is even hotter.  That coupled with all the hundreds of flights over the years in similar conditions and this is the first time he has ever experienced this.  We never questioned the airline's decision but couldn't figure out why "this time" was different.  I guess we won't know for sure.


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## Carol C (Aug 26, 2008)

I don't blame the airlines one bit. This is to be expected with the alarming increase in obesity in the "Western" world (and even in children) and the concurrent historic rise in fuel prices. I don't blame the airlines for charging for extra luggage either. Have you ever seen the boxes of tvs and other heavy consumer electronics that passengers carry through MIA, for example? 

Something's gotta give. Just be glad they're still giving vouchers to folks who volunteer to be bumped.


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## pwrshift (Aug 26, 2008)

I haven't heard of this in years. I can remember on a short 1 hour flight in a small jet, maybe 20 years ago, being asked to move to another seat to balance the plane but that was it. Made me feel singled out and promptly went on a diet - that didn't work for long as the planes got bigger. 

Brian


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Aug 26, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> I haven't heard of this in years. I can remember on a short 1 hour flight in a small jet, maybe 20 years ago, being asked to move to another seat to balance the plane but that was it. Made me feel singled out and promptly went on a diet - that didn't work for long as the planes got bigger.
> 
> Brian



About three or four years ago I took a bump on a late afternoon Alaska Airlines flight out of Las Vegas during a heat wave.  Plane was sold out, and they had to send it out with about ten empty seats because of reduced lift.

When we lived in the San Bernardino Mountains it seemed as if every summer a private plane would crash at the Big Bear airport while attempting a takeoff during a heat wave.  That airport is over 6500 feet elevation, and during a heat wave summer temps in the Big Bear Valley will often be in the mid-90s Fahrenheit.

Humidity is also a factor.  Humid air is less dense than dry air (at the same temperature and elevation), so planes loss some lift due to humidity.  The humidity effects, though, are not as large as temperature and elevation effects.

Density Altitude...You're Higher Than You Think!


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## Rose Pink (Aug 27, 2008)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Density Altitude...You're Higher Than You Think!


 
From the above link:  
The worst case remembered involved a Cherokee 140. It was a hot afternoon when *three large men* climbed aboard and attempted a takeoff in 1988. Eyewitnesses said later the craft climbed fifty feet above the runway, then sank. The pilot pulled back on the yoke and the plane would temporarily climb, then sink again, not ready to fly. Finally, he pulled the nose up so high, barely clearing the trees, that it rose almost vertically, then stalled and spun into the ground. Only the pilot survived the crash.


Obesity (even overweight) causes increased morbity and mortality due to heart disease, diabetes and cancer among other ailments.  Now we can add it as a contributor to plane crashes.  Guess it's time to get serious about my diet.


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