# Please explain DVC points



## siki (Sep 17, 2006)

Hello,

I'm am totally confused about these DVC points.  How exactly does this work?  How many points does one need to use their TS?  Also, can you trade using these points?  We currently own Marriott Aruba Surf Club and when we trade we do so through II.

Thanks.
Michelle


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## mj2vacation (Sep 17, 2006)

siki said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I'm am totally confused about these DVC points.  How exactly does this work?  How many points does one need to use their TS?  Also, can you trade using these points?  We currently own Marriott Aruba Surf Club and when we trade we do so through II.
> 
> ...



We own both (Actually own the Surf Club as well).

with DVC, you decide at size unit that you want, which resort that you want to go to and for how long.

The number of points depend on the unit size, and the season, as well as the night of the week.

For the DVC resorts, you can book as little as one night.  For the Disney Hotels and the Concierge collection (really nice non- disney) hotels, you book for one night or more.  You can also book the Disney Cruise on points.

When you go through II, DVC handles it for you, you just let them know where you want to go.

Some people feel that there is limited value in trading outside of DVC.  We mostly use it at Disney world, but have used it outside as well, and feel that we get a good value.  

DVC is very well run, and you get other perks, like a great discount on Disney Annul Passes.

I like Marriott for their locations, and DVC for the flexibility.  From a system perspective, DVC is far superior, mainly due to flexibility (probably why Marriott is developing their asian points system).

DVC will send you a great info package in the mail.


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## Denise L (Sep 18, 2006)

*Check out the disboards...*

If you are considering a DVC purchase, check out www.disboards.com for a lot of information. Here is the list of DVC point charts http://www.wdwinfo.com/disney-vacation-club/DVCpoints.shtml that shows the points you need for the DVC resorts.

Most people recommend that you buy DVC if you plan to use the resorts at least every other year or so. It may not be worth it to trade your DVC with II, although members do it. Read the DVC discussion boards http://tinyurl.com/htpn9 they are pretty helpful.


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## JudyS (Sep 18, 2006)

DVC sells points packages starting at 150 points.  It is possible to buy packages for smaller numbers of points on the resale market, although small points packages are in short supply. 

The most inexpensive night in a DVC resort costs 8 points; that is for a studio on a weeknight, off-season, at Old Key West in Disneyworld.  The cheapest week in a one bedroom is, I believe 160 points (again, off-season at Old Key West.)   For larger units at peak times, costs are much, much higher.  (the most expensive room & time period costs 158 points a night.) You can see a list of DVC points costs here: http://www.wdwinfo.com/disney-vacation-club/DVCpoints.shtml

It is possible to trade DVC via II.  You do not need to have an II account, because Disney handles the transaction.  The number of points required depends onw hetehr you are requesting a one-bedroom or a two-bedroom, and whether you want high season or low season.  However, because the DVC is so expensive, trading through II is usually not a cost-effective use of points.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 18, 2006)

ok, at the risk of being permanently banned from this bbs, like I was at DISboards.....I reccomend for you to rent a DVC vacation week first for $10 per point BEFORE you buy. When you are at Disney, take the LOW pressure tour and run the numbers very carefully.

IMHO - DVC is only a good value if you intend to stay at one of their 7 home resorts. This is especially true if you limit your stay Sunday-Firday as Friday and Saturday nights are double points...ouch!

IMHO - DVC is a ripoff for II trading, DCL, hotel stays, etc

I can honestly say the DVC is extremely well run, their sales and support staff are top notch, their resorts are fantastic, and their resales hold value (for now tht is)....but you will pay for the Disney experience.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 18, 2006)

Bill, I actually thought about this overnight and agree with you, to a certain extent.

We own Kauai weeks that have high maintenance fees, so depositing them with RCI or II seems a little crazy.  Who wants to deposit Hawaii to go to Vacation Village at Parkway or Marriott Cypress Harbour in Orlando, the easiest trades on the planet?  I prefer to make a little profit by renting the weeks we do not use.  

So I understand what you mean when you say that trading DVC is not a good value.  But I think using the points myself would be a good value, which is why I was considering it.  I can stay in a one-bedroom at the time of year I want to go (all off season with no crowds) for less than $70 a night, weeknights.  That is a great value to me.  The cruises are also a good value, cheaper than buying.  

We bought Hawaii to make a little cash; we will buy DVC to use because we love Mickey Mouse.  

I still do not understand the new rules about renting points.  Can you explain them, Bill?


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## Time2Ponder (Sep 18, 2006)

Please feel free to check out our site, dedicated *exclusively* to DVC (this is in contrast to the Disboards, which encompass the whole of the Disney corporation, including WDW, Disneyland, etc.). We also have a fairly large and active bulletin board. At any rate, on our site, you can find articles on exactly how DVC works, the ins-and-outs of the system, points charts, etc. Mary Waring of MouseSavers recommends us as a great source for DVC information. HTH.

http://www.mouseowners.com

Kim


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## Sue K (Sep 18, 2006)

One of the really nice advantages in the DVC is that you can bank a year's points and also borrow from a future year's points.  As a DVC member you own a certain number of points and every year you receive that number of points to be used for a reservation.  Say you don't want to go to WDW one year, you can bank those points and use them the following year.  So the following year you will have twice as many points to use on a reservation.  Also, you can borrow the next year's points so conceivably you can use three year's points for a reservation.  If you don't want to go every year, this is a great way to own fewer points and still be able to book a longer vacation, a bigger unit, or a more prime time stay.  

Every year you get the number of points you own to make a reservation.  The size of unit you rent, the resort you rent at, the time of year you go and the length of your stay all determine how many points you use for that reservation.  You have total flexibility on your planned vacation!  You can stay in a studio one time and a three bedroom, four full bathroom grand villa another time.  You can stay one day or a month or more (if you have the points).  You can go down in January, the lowest point season, or Easter and Christmas the highest point season.  There are five resorts you can stay in Old Key West, Boardwalk, Yacht and Beach Club, Wilderness Lodge or Saratoga Springs and each resort has it's own point values.

It's all a little confusing and there's a bit of a learning curve when you first join to know exactly how everything works, but it's well worth the effort.  In my mind buying into the DVC is one of the smartest moves I've ever made!


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## siki (Sep 18, 2006)

Thanks for all the great advice.  So, it sounds like purchasing a DVC is worth it if you plan on using it instead of trading.  I want something I can use here and there, but trade too.  We love Disney, but go there maybe every 3 years.  We went in November using my Surf Club as a trade, but could not find an available Disney resort.  We stayed at an off-site resort, which was very nice.  We were disappointed we couldn't get Disney.  All the years I have been there and I have never stayed in the Park.   I plan on researching all the links provided.  
Thanks again!
Michelle


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## Eli Mairs (Sep 21, 2006)

siki said:
			
		

> So, it sounds like purchasing a DVC is worth it if you plan on using it instead of trading.  I want something I can use here and there, but trade too.  We love Disney, but go there maybe every 3 years.



Buying a 150 point resale package would be perfect for you if you only want to go to Disney every 3 years. It would give you enough points for a great vacation.

We bought at OKW in 1992 and absolutely love it. We are flying down on Sunday and staying in a Grand Villa. Those units are unbelievable. Can't wait.


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## siki (Sep 21, 2006)

Eli Mairs said:
			
		

> Buying a 150 point resale package would be perfect for you if you only want to go to Disney every 3 years. It would give you enough points for a great vacation.



How exactly would that work?  I could only use the points every 3 years?
Still confused...


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## Denise L (Sep 21, 2006)

By banking and borrowing your points, you could have a total of 450 points to use in one year if you plan it right. So let's say you have 150 points per year. In 2007, you bank all your points into 2008. For your 2008 reservation, you use the banked points, current points, and you borrow your 2009 points, for a grand total of 450 points!  Then your next point allocation would be for 2010. You could bank those, plan a trip for 2011, and borrow your 2012 points. So you'd go in 2008 and 2011, once every three years.

Is that clear?


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## Dean (Sep 21, 2006)

DVC is perfect for one situation.  That is one who values staying on Disney property and can benefit from the flexibility of the DVC system (not all can) and who does not routinely do long weekends.  No other situation can produce value for their system.  And for those that it truly fits, it is a great system.  The best value is for studios and 2 BR units for 5 nights or less avoiding weekends.  NONE of the exchange options are a reasonable value.


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## siki (Sep 21, 2006)

Thanks for clearing things up.  I don't think DVC is for me.


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## Denise L (Sep 21, 2006)

You may be pleasantly surprised if you take a peek at the resorts....  

If you get a chance, you should rent points to stay onsite and experience one of the DVC resorts.  You'll know then if you'd like to stay there when you visit.  I never dreamed of buying any DVC points until we stayed there last Thanksgiving  . We rented points from an owner!

One nice thing about the points is that they seem fairly easy to rent out if you aren't using them. We have 170 points a year and only plan to go EOY. So for 2007, I rented some of the points out. It took about 5 minutes to find a renter. This helped to cover my 2007 dues and I don't have to bank more than 4 points into 2008. Reservations are so easy to make, Disney has generous cancellation policies, and there are no exchange fees. Waitlists actually work!

It was a bit expensive to buy, but if you look at the history of DVC pricing, it has never gone down. Even since we bought in February, resale prices are up about $10 a point, maybe more.  I can't say if they will keep going up (DVC is RTU until 2042 or 2054), but Disney has a great ROFR strategy that has worked to keep the prices high.

In the meantime, we will be thrilled to be staying on property for the convenience with our small children.  Hopefully, when it comes time to sell, it will as easy as it is now for most members.

Finally, I have been a Disney fan since I was born. I bought Disney stock many years ago, and watched it do nothing for 15 years. I sold it to buy some of these points, so I still have an investment in Disney!


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## Carl D (Sep 23, 2006)

Actually, I think DVC is perfect for someone who stays on site once every three years. 
As said above, with banking and borrowing you can buy a small contract and ust it every third year.


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## GreenMum (Sep 23, 2006)

Where is the best place to rent credits---ebay or on the Disboard?  Do you just rent the days, since I am guessing you can only use the points as a DIS member?


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## Denise L (Sep 23, 2006)

I've rented points from www.disboards.com with no problem. There is a lot of traffic there, so a lot of members to choose from. Some have points to rent and some have reservations to rent. There are also ads here on TUG for DVC point rentals. I have no experience using ebay to rent points.  Good luck!


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## moonlightgraham (Sep 27, 2006)

*DVC Resale Purchase Companies?*

Let's say one decides that a DVC points purchase makes sense. Other than buying direct from Disney, what are the other reputable resellers who market DVC points? I am familiar with The Timeshare Store which provides a nice website to compare prices, etc.. I know DVC has ROFR so picking up a great value is not going to happen, but a penny saved......however, is there any downside to DVC membership in purchasing resale?
Tom


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## Time2Ponder (Sep 27, 2006)

There are no downsides. The membership is not crippled in any way. (Okay, the one downside is having to wait for the sale to pass ROFR, close, and get recorded by DVC. Other than that, however, as I said, the membership is not crippled; they consider you to be the original owber, right down to the "member since" date that appears on the membership card.)

For resales, I also recommend DVC By Resale: http://www.dvcbyresale.com
Shontelle is great and will provide you with very personalized service.

Kim


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## Denise L (Sep 27, 2006)

Disney treats you just like you bought direct from them, it is really nice  .

Seth Nock sold us our DVC Beach Club Villas resale. I highly recommend him. Great to deal with, thorough, and got us through ROFR.


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## spiceycat (Sep 27, 2006)

DVC is great if you love WDW.

if you don't then look elsewhere.

OP - I would try it before buying it - then I would go with 50 points brought resale (from DVC you must buy at least 150 points). Now 50 points aren't always offering on the resalers website - they sell them too fast. So find a resaler you like, then get on their mailing list.

but try it FIRST. Some people think they will like DVC and find out after they brought that they hate it.

some people expect to be treated like DVC is a 5 star resort - it is not. there are not enough CM for that to happen. So they get mad. If you try it before you buy it - then you know what you will be getting.

now that doesn't mean that occasionally you won't get a bad trip. People have problems and you just might have an awfully time on a trip or two. but I brought in 1993 and most of my trips using DVC have been the BEST!!!!


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 27, 2006)

spiceycat said:
			
		

> DVC is great if you love WDW.
> 
> if you don't then look elsewhere.
> 
> ...



I also love DVC, but at today's prices, I advise renting. It is extremely difficult to buy small 50 point contracts as DVC will ROFR most of them as they want to weed out these small owners in favor of 150 point owners. Most 50 point resales that get by ROFR are bought by current DVC owners and they pay FULL Price of close to $100 pp.


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## iluvwdw (Sep 27, 2006)

I don't own DVC but I REALLY REALLY want it!  DH doesn't, so that's not happening ANY time soon.  We are renting points in December for 6 days, 5 nights (excluding weekends, of course).  I am renting for $9.75 per point.  My stay at Saratoga Springs is 55 points.  I am staying at a Deluxe/Home Away From Home resort for LESS than I'd pay to stay at a Moderate!   Obviously, I'm thrilled.

OK, so my question is this...if I can get such a great deal by renting points, what would justify me actually making the purchase?  We plan to go to WDW EVERY year.  But keep in mind I also own timeshare off site, that has served me very well, too.  But for Disney fanatics like myself, I can't help but want to own DISNEY and be totally immersed in the magic 24/7.

So...should I rent every year?  Or take the plunge?


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## Denise L (Sep 28, 2006)

iluvwdw said:
			
		

> OK, so my question is this...if I can get such a great deal by renting points, what would justify me actually making the purchase?  We plan to go to WDW EVERY year.  But keep in mind I also own timeshare off site, that has served me very well, too.  But for Disney fanatics like myself, I can't help but want to own DISNEY and be totally immersed in the magic 24/7.
> 
> So...should I rent every year?  Or take the plunge?



If you are thrilled to stay in a studio every year, then renting probably makes the most sense. It's pretty easy to rent a studio and there is usually a lot of availability.

We bought points earlier this year because we visited and LOVED the convenience of the EPCOT resorts. We walked everywhere or took buses. The kids loved it. We felt immersed in the parks, which is what we wanted. With small children, it saves so much time to already be in the World without having to drive there.

Now, using my very crude math  ...here is the reason that we bought in.  We rented 237 points last year for 6 nights (Sat-Thurs) in a 2 bedroom villa.  At $10/pt, that would be $2370. We had a great rental experience, but there is always more security having control over the reservation.  We decided that if we wanted to visit WDW EOY for 10 years, that would be 5 x 2370 (or more, as rental prices creep up)...so that would be about $12,000+ rounding up.

Now, our current dues on points are about 4.50 each, I think, so x 170 points x 2 years worth of points, that's $1530 in dues for 2 years (340 points).  We use 237 points, rent the other 100 out at $12/pt, or $1200.  So for 1530-1200 = $330, we can stay in our nice, conveniently located Beach Club Villas for 6 nights, including a Saturday!  If we do this 5 x $330, we will spend $1650+ for our trips, saving over $10,000 over renting from a member.

Now, we spent about $16,000 for our points.  Even if in 10 years it is only worth 50% of that, we're still ahead $2000 (again, using my crude math and rose colored glasses). Right now, I could probably sell for what I paid, including closing costs and broker fees, so we'd still have this year's trip costing us just $330, versus the $2370 from last year.

Does any of that make sense?

Oh, did I forget to say that I've always loved Disney? It's my "happiest place."


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## Time2Ponder (Sep 28, 2006)

iluvwdw said:
			
		

> I don't own DVC but I REALLY REALLY want it!  DH doesn't, so that's not happening ANY time soon.  We are renting points in December for 6 days, 5 nights (excluding weekends, of course).  I am renting for $9.75 per point.  My stay at Saratoga Springs is 55 points.  I am staying at a Deluxe/Home Away From Home resort for LESS than I'd pay to stay at a Moderate!   Obviously, I'm thrilled.
> 
> OK, so my question is this...if I can get such a great deal by renting points, what would justify me actually making the purchase?  We plan to go to WDW EVERY year.  But keep in mind I also own timeshare off site, that has served me very well, too.  But for Disney fanatics like myself, I can't help but want to own DISNEY and be totally immersed in the magic 24/7.
> 
> So...should I rent every year?  Or take the plunge?



From a page in my DVC informational/resource website (http://www.mouseowners.com/DVC101.html)

"Is DVC for me?
While you are the only one who can make that decision, here are the general rules of thumb to determine if DVC will work for you:

   1. You can afford the initial cost and Maintenance fees.
   2. You travel to WDW at least every other year.
   3. You stay onsite in moderate or deluxe accommodations.

Those buying into DVC will typically reach a breakeven point on their investment 6-8 years from the date of purchase when compared to paying Disney’s cash room rates.  Variables for individual owners include the manner in which they use their points and purchase price (including interest if financed.)  But frequent visitors to Walt Disney World can obviously save a great deal on their accommodations in the long run after they have passed that breakeven point."

Kim


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 28, 2006)

I own DVC and love it. However, I am very practical when it comes to finances and like to compare apples to apples (unlike DISboard posters) and here is my "opinion"

Only buy DVC if you pay cash (no financing). If you can't afford to buy without financing (especially the 10.75% rates Disney charges) then DO NOT BUY and continue to rent.

To: Deniselew
you forgot to include "lost opportunity costs" in your calculations. If you bought DVC for $16,000, then you lost the 5% CD income that you could have earned if you did not buy. Thus, please add $800 per year to your MF calculations.

DVC is the BEST for staying in one of the seven DVC properties!!! Trading and cruises, etc are not worth it in my opinion.

Yes, you can rent for $9 (from an owner) if you are lucky, but getting $12 rental (if you are the owner) is harder.


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## Denise L (Sep 28, 2006)

Steamboat Bill said:
			
		

> To: Deniselew
> you forgot to include "lost opportunity costs" in your calculations. If you bought DVC for $16,000, then you lost the 5% CD income that you could have earned if you did not buy. Thus, please add $800 per year to your MF calculations.
> 
> DVC is the BEST for staying in one of the seven DVC properties!!! Trading and cruises, etc are not worth it in my opinion.
> ...



Truth be told, that $16,000 would not be in a 5% CD every year  . But like I said, my crude math.

It took me about 5 minutes to get $12/pt. I think it's possible to do that every other year. Maybe even $13/pt.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 28, 2006)

deniselew said:
			
		

> Truth be told, that $16,000 would not be in a 5% CD every year  . But like I said, my crude math.
> 
> It took me about 5 minutes to get $12/pt. I think it's possible to do that every other year. Maybe even $13/pt.



Most people forget about the "lost opportunity" costs in buying a TS, car, boat, etc. Sure you may not buy a CD, but at least this is making a true comparison for different purchases.

$12-13pp is awesome news...the final straw in me getting banned from DISboards was when I posted an ad for $14pp DVC rental and linked it to another thread I created to try to get people to increase their point rental rates. I was very much against the $9-10pp rentals, but DIS wanted to let the market seek its own level. 

Unfortunately, with 100,000 DVC owners, there are many uninformed consumers. I felt like someone down the street from me UNDERPRICED their home by 10-20% and felt it was devaluing my $40,000-$80,000 DVC "investment". Yes, I know TS are NOT an investment, but at the amount of $$$ I see people throwing into DVC, anyone with 1/2 a brain would have to question if this is a smart decision to buy or simply rent.


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## Time2Ponder (Sep 28, 2006)

Steamboat Bill said:
			
		

> $12-13pp is awesome news...the final straw in me getting banned from DISboards was when I posted an ad for $14pp DVC rental and linked it to another thread I created to try to get people to increase their point rental rates. I was very much against the $9-10pp rentals, but DIS wanted to let the market seek its own level.
> 
> Unfortunately, with 100,000 DVC owners, there are many uninformed consumers. I felt like someone down the street from me UNDERPRICED their home by 10-20% and felt it was devaluing my $40,000-$80,000 DVC "investment". Yes, I know TS are NOT an investment, but at the amount of $$$ I see people throwing into DVC, anyone with 1/2 a brain would have to question if this is a smart decision to buy or simply rent.



Well, first, people can do with their points whatever they please. If they decide to drop rental prices to $8 ppt, well, that's their prerogative. And if such an action "devalues your investment," honestly, that's just tough luck. If you're not happy about that, perhaps you should sell your points and just rent for the times that you go down there. It seems it would be potentially more economical for you, plus you wouldn't have to worry about low rental prices; in fact, the low rental prices might just make your day.  

Second, the rental prices reflect what the market will bear. Personally, I don't think you'd get many potential renters who would be willing to pay $14 ppt. For example, the CRO list price for one week in a 1BR at SSR this October is $3200. This reservation, which requires 194 points, would cost $2700 at $14 ppt. With only a $500 difference in price, if I were a potential renter, I'd be much more comfortable going with Disney at that point. Why? Because I can cancel with no penalty, and I can be absolutely sure of what I'm getting (as opposed to trusting an owner). 

Now, if you're looking at $12 or $10 ppt (totals of $2300 and $1900 respectively, and savings of $900 and $1300 over list price respectively), well, then those larger savings maybe will convince me to go with a rental as opposed to Disney. 

It seems to me that, for the non-commercial owner who only occasionally will rent out his/her points, $10 - $12 per point for a rental will recoup MF plus pad the pocket a bit. If that's a sure thing, why mess with it? And if I'm an owner who mostly uses my own points, I'm honestly much more likely to be concerned with my enjoyment of my points/product than with the rental market's supposed "devaluation" of my time at Disney.

All JMO, of course.

Kim


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 28, 2006)

Time2Ponder said:
			
		

> Well, first, people can do with their points whatever they please. If they decide to drop rental prices to $8 ppt, well, that's their prerogative. And if such an action "devalues your investment," honestly, that's just tough luck. If you're not happy about that, perhaps you should sell your points and just rent for the times that you go down there. It seems it would be potentially more economical for you, plus you wouldn't have to worry about low rental prices; in fact, the low rental prices might just make your day.



That is exactly why I am selling some of my DVC and buying a Marriott!!!!

I had 4 DVC contracts for 250 points each. I am NOT a commercial renter. I just originally considered buying DVC for DCL cruises, exchanges, hotel stays, etc. However, after I bought, I found those exchanges very expensive as a $/point value. The BEST DVC value is only at the 7 home resorts.

Thus, I started to rent my extra points. Renting is pretty easy, however, there are people that rent $8-9 pp and this is sad because they are leaving money on the table. If they got educated and everyone used $10 as a minimum, we all would be better off. 

DISboards posters are the only people that actually get MAD if you try to help them make more money. TUGbbs posters seem "more financially educated" and are not blinded by pixie dust...

I will ALWAYS keep at least one DVC contract as I love it....I just see the light at the end of the tunnel and it looks to me like a potential correction in the DVC market. I may be wrong, but if I can rent for $8-9pp, then I would be STUPID to buy (or even keep what I already own).


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## spiceycat (Sep 28, 2006)

Bill - there are several disers (not owners) who expect to rent at $7 to $9 per point.

when they ask me - simply say I can rent for more - if they don't like my price too bad - someone else will.


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## littlestar (Sep 28, 2006)

We just gave my parents some BCV points. They usually stay at a Marriott on a Getaway week through II, but wanted some addtional days onsite when they want to do the Disney parks. A small points package is great for those onsite trips in studios (park days) Sunday through Thursday and then they move over to their Getaway week to have more room and relax.

It's nice to be a member (discounts on annual passes, golf, etc.,) - even if it's a little package like 55 or 60 points. Plus, if you owned a small package, you could have a transfer done to your DVC account if you needed more points for a particular trip (one transfer in or out per use year so plan carefully) and then you would have control over your reservations instead of a stranger. 

If you just want to stay DVC occasionally, then I'd say rent. But if you know you're going to want it every year, I'd think about buying some points.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 28, 2006)

There are three DVC resales on eBay right now:

50 HHI
75 BWV
80 VBR

The BWV would be my reccomendation. I expect it to sell for for over $7000!


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## Carl D (Sep 28, 2006)

One of the biggest problems I have with factoring in lost oppurtunity costs is that most people figure X rate of return on the entire capital cost, and never deduct any money for comparable accommodations every year.

They think this $16,000 is just sitting earning interest.
Every year you must deduct the cost of deluxe, on site accommodations.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 28, 2006)

Carl D said:
			
		

> One of the biggest problems I have with factoring in lost oppurtunity costs is that most people figure X rate of return on the entire capital cost, and never deduct any money for comparable accommodations every year.
> 
> They think this $16,000 is just sitting earning interest.
> Every year you must deduct the cost of deluxe, on site accommodations.



I agree with you in spirit...but you are now comparing apples with strawberries.

My post was to compare "buying" a DVC TS vs "renting" DVC points.

For MANY people, it would be cheaper to rent than purchase DVC. This may not apply to Marriott, Hilton, WM, FF, Suntera, and others.

One more thing I forgot to include was paying the tax on the 5% CD interest off the $16,000 investment. Thus, subtract 30% of the $800 earned = $560 per year in true lost opportunity costs + yearly MF = Grand total spent.

Now compare grand total spent vs rental rates of $9-$10pp and that is comparing "apples to apples".


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 28, 2006)

Steamboat Bill said:
			
		

> There are three DVC resales on eBay right now:
> 
> 50 HHI
> 75 BWV
> ...



ok I am quoting myself...kinda weird.

I have changed my mind....I think 50 HHI points represents FANTASTIC value for someone considering a DVC purchase. The buy it now price is $4000 which is $80pp. In fact, I am considering buying it myself.

The reason it is such a great deal (if you get past ROFR) is that it allows you the cheapest entry into DVC and you can transfer points into your account from other members for about $10pp. When you consider MF = $4pp, then the markup is only $6pp.

One of the tough things about DVC is figuring out how many points to buy. Too few and you need to rent, too many and you become the rentor.

With a 50 point account, you will have to rent points when you need them and bank the 50 points in years you skip Disney.

Listen...I am not ant-DVC, I am not anti-DISboards...nor an I anti-Disney...I am simply anti-dumb decisions.

If you want the CHEAPEST entry into DVC ownership...this is your golden opportunity!

May the pixie dust be with you (for any of the DIS members who knows what I mean)


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## Carl D (Sep 28, 2006)

Steamboat Bill said:
			
		

> I agree with you in spirit...but you are now comparing apples with strawberries.
> 
> My post was to compare "buying" a DVC TS vs "renting" DVC points.


Yes, but you are assuming you will always be able to rent points, and rent them for that price.  With the DVC crackdown on renting, that may not be a sure thing.

Also you must factor in the lost interest income after the breakeven point (if there is one). In other words, you would be losing years of interest on the money you spend to rent points after DVC has paid for itself.
If DVC pays for itself in 10 years, there is 40 years worth of cumulative rental costs afterward that you would be losing interest on.


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## Denise L (Sep 28, 2006)

All this money stuff aside  , I'm glad we bought at Disney. It's fun to plan a vacation there and what really matters is enjoying time with our family.  Add all the magic that I feel when I'm at DL or WDW, and the decision is easy!  We didn't buy to rent out any points, but if we have extra ones, we'll try it every now and then. Otherwise, we can use them, no problem!

Whoever is thinking of buying should go stay there and see for themselves. You'll know if it is right for you and your family!


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 29, 2006)

Carl D said:
			
		

> Yes, but you are assuming you will always be able to rent points, and rent them for that price.  With the DVC crackdown on renting, that may not be a sure thing.
> 
> Also you must factor in the lost interest income after the breakeven point (if there is one). In other words, you would be losing years of interest on the money you spend to rent points after DVC has paid for itself.
> If DVC pays for itself in 10 years, there is 40 years worth of cumulative rental costs afterward that you would be losing interest on.



The DVC crackdown was on point transfers not point rentals. This was a major complaint for me as the crackdown does nothing to stop commercial renters and hurts average members like me who preferred to transfer extra points to DVC owners, rather than renting to a non-DVC owner.

Now I have to rent extra points to non-owners and that is more of a hassle for me (but brings in more revenue than transferring).

I did not buy DVC to make money, but if I have extra points, I am going to rent/transfer them at a reasonable rate.

Most DVC members talk with adjectives like "magic" "pixie dust" "pie in the sky" and that is ok, but when you spend $20,000-$80,000 on a purchase, you should seriously evaluate other options.

Getting back to the OP.....the current eBay ad for 50 HH points is a steal!!!


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## Carl D (Sep 29, 2006)

Steamboat Bill said:
			
		

> The DVC crackdown was on point transfers not point rentals.


It was also on rentals. I believe it was in the Member Clubhouse. 
There was a million page thread about it on Disboards (actually intertwined with your thread). There was also a 1/2 million page solo thread.

Correction, it was in Vacation Magic.


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## Carl D (Sep 29, 2006)

From the August Vacation Magic:

_Policies protect personal use and enjoyment
In a continuing effort to maximize Members' personal enjoyment of their Membership, Disney Vacation Club would like to remind Members about several related policies outlined in the Public Offering Statement and other Member documents.

As a reminder, published policies limit the use of accommodations and recreational facilities solely to the personal use and enjoyment of Owners, their lessees, Guests, exchangers and invitees and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a Unit.

*To maximize the availability of reservations for these permitted purposes, Disney Vacation Club closely monitors reservations and may cancel reserved accommodations if a pattern of rental activity for profit is discovered.*

Additionally, current policies limit Vacation Point-transfer transactions to one transfer per Member or Membership, either as transferee or transferor, during a given Use Year._

(Emphasis done by me.)
So, who knows? I interpret this as a crackdown on rentals AND transfers. Of course, the OCCASIONAL renter need not worry. I think it's targeted at those who rent every year, but that may be enough to limit the rental market.


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 29, 2006)

Carl D said:
			
		

> To maximize the availability of reservations for these permitted purposes, Disney Vacation Club closely monitors reservations and may cancel reserved accommodations if a pattern of rental activity for profit is discovered.



It sounds like Big Mouse (Brother) is watching us!!!!

This is a slippery slope....does any other TS have policies like this?


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## Time2Ponder (Sep 29, 2006)

Carl D said:
			
		

> So, who knows? I interpret this as a crackdown on rentals AND transfers. Of course, the OCCASIONAL renter need not worry. I think it's targeted at those who rent every year, but that may be enough to limit the rental market.



I've been told by three people in the know that they have a list of obvious commercial renters and they are starting with those renters, then working their way down. "Pattern of rental activity" is the key here, and because Disney gets to decide what, exactly, is a "pattern of rental activity," that may leave some owners (even non-commercial ones) as well as renters in the lurch. Disney developed a "you can't do this" letter that is in the process of passing muster with its legal dpeartment (may already have done this, actually).

My feeling is that this will begin a cool-down in the rental market. How will renters know that the owner(s) from whom they are renting the points isn't one of those targeted by Disney (and thus know that their reservation is secure)?

Kim


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## Time2Ponder (Sep 29, 2006)

Steamboat Bill said:
			
		

> It sounds like Big Mouse (Brother) is watching us!!!!
> 
> This is a slippery slope....does any other TS have policies like this?



I don't know, but Disney's POS states that renting for commercial purposes is prohibited. So they have legal and contractual backing on this. The "shade of grey" is in deciding what consitutes a "pattern of rental activity" that is deemed to be commercial, IMO.

Btw, we only have 430 pts, but we'll be selling at least 200 of those (we have 4 contracts altogether). Even though we've never rented out our points, we don't want to risk being saddled with extra points we won't be able to use. Better to sell and spend a few of those extra days at US/IOA that get ripped off by Disney.

Kim


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## Dean (Sep 29, 2006)

Time2Ponder said:
			
		

> I've been told by three people in the know that they have a list of obvious commercial renters and they are starting with those renters, then working their way down. "Pattern of rental activity" is the key here, and because Disney gets to decide what, exactly, is a "pattern of rental activity," that may leave some owners (even non-commercial ones) as well as renters in the lurch. Disney developed a "you can't do this" letter that is in the process of passing muster with its legal dpeartment (may already have done this, actually).
> 
> My feeling is that this will begin a cool-down in the rental market. How will renters know that the owner(s) from whom they are renting the points isn't one of those targeted by Disney (and thus know that their reservation is secure)?
> 
> Kim


The last I heard they were waiting on a position and definition on commercial renters from the legal department.  My feeling is it will drive two groups mostly out of the rental market, those that only felt comfortable with transfers to other members and those that were somewhat timid about doing renting out in the first place.  And it will make those that are still willing to do so, less likely to transfer smaller amounts.  I feel the pool of points for rental will shrink more than the demand and the prices will actually go up.  Regardless it will be almost impossible for the member who just needs a few points to round out a reservation.


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