# Buying 500k Wyndham Points



## ShadowR55 (Jan 4, 2017)

A few months ago I bought 500K points for $98k USD. I was wondering what the difference was between Wyndham, Worldmark, Club Pass, VIP? Am I forgetting anything else?



Ok JK, I'm going to buy resale, I didn't fall for the pitch and didn't spend $98k. What I need to know is exactly what resorts I can stay at with my resale points? I'm reading all these posts about VIP, Plus, Club access, Club Pass, Worldmark, Booty, Etc. I'm guessing they make it intentionally confusing so they can sell something different every few years. How far in advance will I need to book and how is availability a few weeks before travel? Am I better off saving the $3700 in maintenance fees and booking my trips like I normally do, which is a few weeks before my trip? Thank you for your help in advance.


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## Ty1on (Jan 4, 2017)

ShadowR55 said:


> A few months ago I bought 500K points for $98k USD. I was wondering what the difference was between Wyndham, Worldmark, Club Pass, VIP? Am I forgetting anything else?
> 
> 
> 
> Ok JK, I'm going to buy resale, I didn't fall for the pitch and didn't spend $98k. What I need to know is exactly what resorts I can stay at with my resale points? I'm reading all these posts about VIP, Plus, Club access, Club Pass, Worldmark, Booty, Etc. I'm guessing they make it intentionally confusing so they can sell something different every few years. How far in advance will I need to book and how is availability a few weeks before travel? Am I better off saving the $3700 in maintenance fees and booking my trips like I normally do, which is a few weeks before my trip? Thank you for your help in advance.



Any Wyndham resorts a retail owner can use, with the exception of Club Pass resorts (These are Worldmark resorts retail owners can pay a fee to exchange into) and Margaritaville.


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## nicemann (Jan 4, 2017)

First welcome to TUG.  Really hope they didn't offer you 500k in points for $98k.  I would suggest looking at the Wyndham Owners Guide http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/plus_membersdirectory1415/ and look at the properties.  From my understanding from page 10 to page 226 you can book with resell points.  Availabily is going to really depend on the property.  Some are really hard and need an ARP (13 months via either points at the property or it being a CWA property).  Some are really easy and can book a few months out.

As far as you being better off paying MFs each year or doing vacations the way you have done in the past...that is really a judgement call.  Timeshares are not for everyone.  Spend a lot of time reading the owners guide and on TUG and then make your decision.


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## vacationhopeful (Jan 4, 2017)

Buy resale .. gets you NONE of these options:
no VIP .. or VIP benefits (extra free GC based on level, no unlimited RTs or HKs)
no Club Pass 

just 1 free yearly guest certificate (pay for the others at $99/129 each)


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## Ty1on (Jan 4, 2017)

How far in advance you need to book depends on the popularity of what you want.  For the most coveted times, you would need the 13 month ARP or pray for a cancellation (and catching it before it is snapped back up).  For most, right at 10 months out will work.  Some places, like Palm Springs in July, are available right up to a few days before check-in.  If you can't plan at least 10 months out, rent.


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## ShadowR55 (Jan 4, 2017)

Ty1on said:


> Any Wyndham resorts a retail owner can use, with the exception of Club Pass resorts (These are Worldmark resorts retail owners can pay a fee to exchange into) and Margaritaville.


Ok so ther is a Club Pass and Club Plus. I can use Club Plus but not Club Pass with my CLub Wyndham Access points. Am I correct? Also is it better to buy Club Wyndham Access points or buy points tied to a certain property? I'm told I can still use those points for any property. I'm trying to figure out how to pay the least amount of Maintenence Fees.


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## Ty1on (Jan 4, 2017)

Club Wyndham Plus is the official name of the overarching points system.  There is no Club Plus that offers a distinction like Club Pass does.

Club Wyndham Access is a trust within Club Wyndham Plus that holds deeds in 70-ish resorts and offers you 13 month advance reservation priority at any of those resorts to the extent CWA owns points in them.

To pay the least amount of maintenance fees, find a contract at a resort with the least fees, such as Bali Hai or Canterbury.  You'll pay more for the contract up front, but will benefit from lower MF for years.  CWA MF will continue increasing as Wyndham adds more and more high-MF contracts taken back by the Ovation program.


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## ShadowR55 (Jan 4, 2017)

Ty1on said:


> Club Wyndham Plus is the official name of the overarching points system.  There is no Club Plus that offers a distinction like Club Pass does.
> 
> Club Wyndham Access is a trust within Club Wyndham Plus that holds deeds in 70-ish resorts and offers you 13 month advance reservation priority at any of those resorts to the extent CWA owns points in them.
> 
> To pay the least amount of maintenance fees, find a contract at a resort with the least fees, such as Bali Hai or Canterbury.  You'll pay more for the contract up front, but will benefit from lower MF for years.  CWA MF will continue increasing as Wyndham adds more and more high-MF contracts taken back by the Ovation program.



How do you convert the weeks at Bali Hai or Canterbury into points? Trying to figure out how many points that would be for other resorts.


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## Ty1on (Jan 4, 2017)

ShadowR55 said:


> How do you convert the weeks at Bali Hai or Canterbury into points? Trying to figure out how many points that would be for other resorts.



You buy converted weeks to start with.  They are in Club Wyndham already and you are awarded the points at the start of your use year, unless you notify them that you want to use your deeded week.  

A point at one resort is a point at any.  Because Bali hai and Canterbury are high point resorts, your MF would be spread across more points, thus a lower MF per point.


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## Richelle (Jan 4, 2017)

I know the main difference is CWA is a "membership" as opposed to a deed.  Not sure if that speeds up the transfer process, but personally, I prefer a deed. There are more restrictions on what Wyndham can or cannot do with my deed.  A "membership" is not subject to the rules and regulations each state has regarding deeded property.  As far as the MF, I listed some that are under $4 per 1k points.  There might be more.

San Francisco-Canterbury  $3.43
Pahio at Bali Hai Villas  $3.45
Dye Club Villas  $3.48
San Francisco Canterbury - Presidential rate    $3.76
Desert Blue Standard $3.83
South Shore at Lake Tahoe $3.83
King Cotton Villas Presidential rate    $3.94
Pahio at Bali Hai Villas Presidential rate    $3.98

That's just a reference, but you will want to look at whats in the listing.  Rates may vary depending on what programs they are signed up for. Also, keep an eye on the closing and transfer costs.  The transfer cost for points contracts is $299.  Wyndham sets that fee.  The seller may contribute to some or all of those costs.  You will have to confirm that BEFORE you agree to buy or place a bid on an auction.  One thing you will want to think about.  Places like Canterbury, or national harbor will cost more upfront because of lower MF.  However, there are a ton of contracts out there that you can easily get for $1, but the maintenance fees are higher.  The question is, if you choose to pay more upfront for the contract with the lower fees, how long will it take you to get your money back in savings?  The answer depends on the resort.  Let's say I have two choices on contracts to buy.  Contract A cost $5000, and the maintenance fees are $1000.  Contract B cost me $1, and my maintenance fees are $1500 a year.  If I bought Contract A, it would take 10 years to recoup that upfront cost to make the low MF worth it. Personally, I don't see myself hanging onto my resale contract that long.  I may decide to get something better later on down the road and will dump my $1 contract.

The others already addressed the availability question.  It's all about Location, time a year, and how far out you are from your travel date. 
Point costs varies on location, time of year, and room type.

Resale is not good towards gaining you VIP status, but as of now, if you already have VIP through developer, your resale points will be treated the same as your developer points for VIP benefits.  That's subject to change at anytime.

Resale points will not get you to club pass locations.  You have to get developer points for those.  If you want to travel to the club pass locations, you would probably be better off buying  contract resale for that resort or renting.  

As far as renting versus owning a timeshare it really depends.  If it's just you and your significant other, then you probably would be better off renting a room at a resort or a hotel room.  If you have a family, and need multiple bedrooms, you might still be better off renting depending on the resort and how often you go.  Some resorts cost more then others.  If you are like me, where we do multiple vacations every year, AND a large family vacation every few years, then timesharing might be good for you.  Our Family trip this year, will be with 27 people.  We will need Three 3-bedroom rooms.  Those would cost about $6k total during the week we are going.  That was the cheapest rate I could find.  My MF are just over $3k a year.  Sometimes I let other family members use my points if they are traveling to a location with a Wyndham resort. You will have to make your own judgment call as to whether the added cost is enough.  

One last thing you may want to consider.  You may not need 500k points.  Depending on how often you travel, when, and how big a room you need, you might be able to get away with a smaller contract which will cost less in MF.  If you find you need more, you can always buy another contract.  There is a ton more information to be had.  Use the link Nicemann gave with the Wyndham directory.  It has a lot of information about the program, as well as the room rates.


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## Richelle (Jan 4, 2017)

Ty1on said:


> You buy converted weeks to start with.  They are in Club Wyndham already and you are awarded the points at the start of your use year, unless you notify them that you want to use your deeded week.
> 
> A point at one resort is a point at any.  *Because Bali hai and Canterbury are high point resorts, your MF would be spread across more points, thus a lower MF per point*.



I'm not sure that is entirely true.  My home resort is not a high point resort, and it's fees are lower then Bonnet Creek, which is a much higher point resort.  I think it has more to do with the age of the resort (which affects the costs to maintain), the costs to run the resort (staff, insurance, taxes, electricity rates, water rates, maintenance, etc), number of rooms, etc.  Older resorts have had more time to increase their fees, plus they are more costly to maintain.  However, depending on what the rates started at, the older resorts can still sometimes be cheaper then the newer ones.  Bonnet Creek is much newer then my home resort, but the MF are less then Bonnet Creek.


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## Ty1on (Jan 4, 2017)

Richelle said:


> I'm not sure that is entirely true.  My home resort is not a high point resort, and it's fees are lower then Bonnet Creek, which is a much higher point resort.  I think it has more to do with the age of the resort (which affects the costs to maintain), the costs to run the resort (staff, insurance, taxes, electricity rates, water rates, maintenance, etc), number of rooms, etc.  Older resorts have had more time to increase their fees, plus they are more costly to maintain.  However, depending on what the rates started at, the older resorts can still sometimes be cheaper then the newer ones.  Bonnet Creek is much newer then my home resort, but the MF are less then Bonnet Creek.



Certainly it isn't the only factor involved in MF costs.  Delinquency rate (probably the biggest factor, now that I think about it), Labor rates in the area, intrinsic maintenance costs related to the age and design of buildings, property taxes, etc., also play a part.  Given identical resorts in the same location, though, the one that confers more points for the same room type will mathematically result in a lower rate per point.


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## jerrybev (Jan 5, 2017)

what are "club pass locations"?  I am platinum, bought all my points from Wyndham,  but not familiar with club pass locations and what is involved.
thank you
jerrybev


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## Ty1on (Jan 5, 2017)

jerrybev said:


> what are "club pass locations"?  I am platinum, bought all my points from Wyndham,  but not familiar with club pass locations and what is involved.
> thank you
> jerrybev



Club Pass is the terminology given to paying a $99 exchange fee to book Worldmark reservations using Wyndham points.  I believe only a VC can help you with this, so you wouldn't see the option on your reservations screen.


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## Richelle (Jan 5, 2017)

Ty1on said:


> Club Pass is the terminology given to paying a $99 exchange fee to book Worldmark reservations using Wyndham points.  I believe only a VC can help you with this, so you wouldn't see the option on your reservations screen.



Correct.  You can see the resort if you look at the map on the owner portal, but if you try to go to the resort page, you are greeted with a page that tells you to call vacation planning to book a club pass location.  Not sure if the new owner portal will change that.


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## foundyoubyaccident (Jan 6, 2017)

If you have more than 1 contract with Wyndham, do you have to pay for more than 1 program fee?


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## Jan M. (Jan 6, 2017)

The program fee is based on the number of points you own not the number of contracts or deeds.


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## bnoble (Jan 6, 2017)

Jan M. said:


> The program fee is based on the number of points you own not the number of contracts or deeds.


...as long as they are in the same account.


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## ronparise (Jan 6, 2017)

ShadowR55 said:


> How do you convert the weeks at Bali Hai or Canterbury into points? Trying to figure out how many points that would be for other resorts.



You cant convert Canterbury weeks to points because there are no weeks to convert, this is and has been an all points resort from the beginning. (UDI)

Bali Hai is different, When it was developed it was all weeks. When Wyndham took it over they put the unsold inventory into the points system and then sold udi ownerships. They also convinced many of the folks that had purchased weeks from the original developer to convert those weeks to points so they could use their ownership here and at the other wyndham resorts, but some owners didnt convert

So there are Bali Hai, deeded weeks, deeded weeks converted to points  and udi deeds in circulation.  Maintenance fees here are high (like $1600 for a 2 bedroom), but because the points required to stay here are also high, the maintenance fee rate is low


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## ronparise (Jan 6, 2017)

bnoble said:


> ...as long as they are in the same account.



whether they are in the same account or not the program fee is based on the number of points.  There is however, a minimum to be aware of


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## bnoble (Jan 6, 2017)

Yes, thanks for that clarification. It was the minimum I was thinking of---splitting several smaller deeds into different accounts *can* increase your fees. But, many larger accounts would cost the same as one super-large one.


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## ronparise (Jan 6, 2017)

jerrybev said:


> what are "club pass locations"?  I am platinum, bought all my points from Wyndham,  but not familiar with club pass locations and what is involved.
> thank you
> jerrybev



club pass is an exchange program whereby a club wyndham owner can reserve worldmark locations with his points, and worldmark owners can reserve Club Wyndham locations with his credits.  there is a directory supplement that outlines the program and the costs.  

https://www.myclubwyndham.com/ffrweb/pdfs/cw_wyndham_club_pass_supplement.pdf


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## ronparise (Jan 6, 2017)

Ty1on said:


> Certainly it isn't the only factor involved in MF costs.  Delinquency rate (probably the biggest factor, now that I think about it), Labor rates in the area, intrinsic maintenance costs related to the age and design of buildings, property taxes, etc., also play a part.  Given identical resorts in the same location, though, the one that confers more points for the same room type will mathematically result in a lower rate per point.



not many people understand the relationship between maintenance fees, the points required to make a reservation and the maintenance fee rate. You clearly do, but Richelle clearly dosent

Maintenance fees are not determined by the point, Thats a calculation that comes later.  Maintenance fees start with the budget to run the resort, labor, taxes, etc as you have outlined in your post, Then like any condo those costs are allocated to each unit in the building(s) (usually 2 bedrooms will pay more than one bedrooms, but less than 3 bedrooms) then in the case of timeshares they divide by the number of weeks in the year. Something to remember is that in most cases (at least all Im familiar with) it dosent matter whether that week is a red week or blue week, the fees are the same 1/52 of the cost of the unit

Now when it comes to the wyndham points system we divide the mf/unit/ by the number of points allocated,  to get the maintenance fee rate (we tend to talk in terms of dollars per 1000 points) 

we usually say that national harbor at $4.62/1000 points has a lower maintenance fee than Nashville which is at $7.24  but thats not true. The rate is lower, but the actual fees are higher To stay in a 2 bedroom at National Harbor, with National Harbor points you will pay $1270 (275x4.62) and at nashville $1114 (7.24 x 154) so you see the fees at National Harbor are actually higher than at Nashville. 

So National Harbor has higher fees, but a lower rate..  The best deals in the use of wyndham points is using points from a place like National Harbor to stay at a place like Nashville  154,000 points x $4.62/1000 = $711  (low maintenance fee rate x low points allocation) and the worst deals would be using high rate points like from my converted week at Fairfield Harbor to stay at a high points resort like National Harbor  9.27 x 275 = $2549

Many here will say that the low maintenance fee rate at places like Canterbury, National Harbor, Panama City etc is because Wyndham must be subsidizing fees at these places to encourage sales. (And they warn that when the subsidies stop, the fees will go up)   thats just not true the biggest reason for the low rate is the high points required to stay here


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## ShadowR55 (Jan 6, 2017)

Wow, ronparise - that makes a lot of sense how you explained it. Interesting, my brother and I want to split 1,000,000 points because we usually travel with a large family, my family - his and parents and in-laws. It turns to be almost 20 people. When we calculated the MF on club wyndham access points - it's basically a wash. The only way it would make sense to have 1 million points was if you had VIP platinum status.


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## Jan M. (Jan 6, 2017)

I'm not a fan of CWA, Club Wyndham Access, as the maintenance fees are higher than I want to pay. On resale market or even from the developer you can easily purchase points/deeds that have lower maintenance fees. Many people will say but I got this deed for such a cheap price and would have had to pay probably $1000 more to get a deed with a similar number of points at a resort with lower maintenance fees. Big deal, in one year or maybe a little longer you could have saved yourself that $1000 in maintenance fees and over the years of your ownership that really adds up. An acquaintance of mine pays higher maintenance fees than I do; I own 98,000 more points than he does but I pay 662.85 less per year in maintenance fees. A different way to look it is if I paid his rate my maintenance fees would be $1244.95 more per year.  I can take a really nice vacation every year on that money. Over a 10 year period at the current rates that is $12,449.50! 

Another thing I'm not a fan of is buying 4 or 5 smaller point deeds instead of holding out for a good deal on 1 or 2 larger point deeds. To make sure you are making valid comparisons when you are looking at the different listings is very important to understand all the different costs and fees and whether some, none or all of them are included or will be added to the final price. If you are looking at purchasing something to give you ARP, advance reservation priority, at a specific resort, make sure you will own enough points at that resort to get the stays you want. And then you have to make sure you don't use them in the meantime and not have enough left to get the ARP stay you wanted. Yes, I once did that to myself.

If you, your brother and both of your spouses are on the deed or deeds any of you can check in (no guest fees) and you can have a reservation in each one of your names for the same resort and/or dates.

Ron pointed out something I missed when I got interrupted by a phone call about shooting at the Fort Lauderdale airport which is only twenty minutes from us. So I'm editing my post.

Always do the math! Purchase price, maintenance fees, closing costs, length of time you expect to own. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples! Good listings on eBay come up often enough that there is no need to jump on the first thing you see. But it is important to know how to evaluate what is actually a good deal when you see it so you don't miss out. If you contact a few of the sellers who handle resales they may be able to find a good deal for you.


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## ronparise (Jan 6, 2017)

Jan M. said:


> I'm not a fan of CWA, Club Wyndham Access, as the maintenance fees are higher than I want to pay. On resale market or even from the developer you can easily purchase points/deeds that have lower maintenance fees. Many people will say but I got this deed for such a cheap price and would have had to pay probably $1000 more to get a deed with a similar number of points at a resort with lower maintenance fees. Big deal, in one year or maybe a little longer you could have saved yourself that $1000 in maintenance fees and over the years of your ownership that really adds up. An acquaintance of mine pays higher maintenance fees than I do; I own 98,000 more points than he does but I pay 662.85 less per year in maintenance fees. A different way to look it is if I paid his rate my maintenance fees would be $1244.95 more per year.  I can take a really nice vacation every year on that money. Over a 10 year period at the current rates that is $12,449.50!
> 
> Another thing I'm not a fan of is buying 4 or 5 smaller point deeds instead of holding out for a good deal on 1 or 2 larger point deeds. To make sure you are making valid comparisons when you are looking at the different listings is very important to understand all the different costs and fees and whether some, none or all of them are included or will be added to the final price. If you are looking at purchasing something to give you ARP, advance reservation priority, at a specific resort, make sure you will own enough points at that resort to get the stays you want. And then you have to make sure you don't use them in the meantime and not have enough left to get the ARP stay you wanted. Yes, I once did that to myself.
> 
> If you, your brother and both of your spouses are on the deed or deeds any of you can check in (no guest fees) and you can have a reservation in each one of your names for the same resort and/or dates.



When I'm comparing contracts, like you I look at the maintenance fee rate, but I also look at purchase price. Sometimes a  low rate contract is priced so high that a high rate contract that can be purchased cheap, makes more sense to me

i usually use a 5 year amortization schedule. So a million points  at national harbor that costs me $10000 with mf ofabout $4600/year has an annual cost of $6600/year for the first 5 years

Compare that to a million points at Fairfield glade where the fees are $6.25/1000 or $6250/millon/ year that I'm able to get for $2000 ($400/yr for 5 years)

$6600/yr for 5 years for the national harbor
$6450/yr for 5 years for Fairfield glade

Which is the better deal.  For me it's the Fairfield glade with the higher fees. Not only is the 5 yr cost a little less but I get to keep $8000 in my pocket to use for the next opportunity

Not saying I'm right or you are wrong. Just saying there are different approaches to the same problem


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## Jan M. (Jan 6, 2017)

ronparise said:


> When I'm comparing contracts, like you I look at the maintenance fee rate, but I also look at purchase price. Sometimes a  low rate contract is priced so high that a high rate contract that can be purchased cheap, makes more sense to me
> 
> i usually use a 5 year amortization schedule. So a million points  at national harbor that costs me $10000 with mf ofabout $4600/year has an annual cost of $6600/year for the first 5 years
> 
> ...



Sorry you are right. I got interrupted by a phone call and neglected to add to the post. Always do the numbers and make sure you are comparing apples to apples!


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