# Shady at best: My experience today with a Diamond to HGVC Max pressure sale



## jayhawker

*THANK YOU TUGBBS FOR GIVING ME THE INFORMATION TO HELP MY PARENTS TODAY.*

I am going to cross-post in both the HGVC and Diamond sections as I felt this should be information for both places.
This is my experience today with Yasamin (spelled phonetically and probably Jasmin) on the phone today from Mystic Dunes.  I was on a conference call with her and my parents at the same time as they went through their MU.
Attached is a copy of the proposal Yasamin wanted my parents to sign.
Background:
My parents are early 70s
Have been Diamond members for ~15 years and actively use their points and vacation often across the US.  They love the program and are part of the US Collection, Trust (no deed--that I know of).
My step-father was just diagnosed with dementia this year (which Yasamin did not know at the time of visit)
My parents are concerned with their future ability to travel, whether their program can be inherited, the increasing MFs of Diamond, and what the buyout holds for them.

My mother called yesterday. She was very excited to tell me that they are potentially going to hand down a small portion of my "inheritance" soon and wanted my input regarding whether I am interested in taking over their travel program at some point in the near future? She said Hilton had bought out Diamond and that they scheduled their owner's meeting during a stay at Mystic Dunes this week. After getting the information, the felt it was best to set up a conference call so we all could talk about options Hilton had for their program in the future.

Yasamin called and set up the three-way conversation. Most of the discussion centered around what my parents and Yasamin discussed the prior day and the contract they were about to sign. The main points:

Yasamin described herself specifically as a HVC Max specialist whose job was to specifically transition people from Diamond to HVC Max.
She said that timeshares are things of the past and everything was moving to a more streamlined platform where points could be used for things like vacation rentals, nights at exclusive places like the Waldorf or Conrad, cruises, HHonors points, even "House" rentals in the same manner as VRBO.  She also used examples such as rental car purchases or gift cards.  "The whole program is changing" and "very exciting."
She was very vague, but told my mother (to her best understanding) that if she did not sign up for Max, that her (already high) MFs would *double* because they will now be part of TWO programs which would need to be maintained. 
Ahh!  But her ability to fight on the behalf of my parents to get them changed over and to waive an add-on points program they had recently signed up for would fix everything.  They just needed to buy a new $30K investment in HVC Max which would negate their old Diamond contract and make the world right.  The good news?  She was able to get that price down even more.
All they had to do was sign a contract for $21,067 at 15.79% interest for 10 years -- for the low price of $356.15 per month -->>>> AND $4192 maintenance fees -->>>> for 15,000 (current annual allotment) points AND (SCORE, RIGHT!?!) 7500 bonus points...subject to availability.
Ps., she never asked if my parents wanted to pay outright rather than finance IF they wanted to move forward anyhow.
THANK GOD MY PARENTS DIDN'T SIGN THIS AND CALLED TO ASK IF I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN TAKING OVER ONE DAY....

My home family:  We have been looking at a few different programs for a period of time.  Mildly familiar with the terms of each program and knew my parents were always happy with their experiences.  Financially well established and can pay cash for any program or investment we choose to settle upon.  Previously a HHonors Diamond Elite member and familiar with Hilton and have been approached about HC before.  Open minded to talk with Yasamin and might have even bought our own deed today at Valdoro if the numbers were correct.  *THANK YOU FOR THE YEARLY MFs vs Points SPREADSHEET!!!  *

I looked at the sales sheet which I will attach below.  I was stunned.  WTH is this?  16% interest?  For what?  Yasamin, what is this for?
"Well, that is the money required to switch your parents in the the much better Max program and get them out of the incredibly high MFs they pay now."  "Your parents are getting older and you don't want them to continue to be financially burdened by such high fees, do you?"  (with my parents on the phone)

I'm sorry, but I did some research on this program, and it isn't even launched yet--and wont be until April 1st.  Is that correct?
"Oh no.  Where did you get that information?  We are selling this program right now.  The information is out there." 
She then referenced a form which my parents saw but she did not send with them
I guess this form talks about grandfathering the Diamond members into Max--but that there was a cost for doing so.
This might be true as may be (as has been discussed on this forum) three tiers and the Diamond members are the lowest and get the leftover, non HGVC properties which are transitioned.
I would suspect is going to be your ticket to being able to use your points at a location in any of the three tiers, at Hilton hotel portfolio properties, and all the other bells and whistles they will throw into the program.  That has been discussed on TUG in many threads. (https://tugbbs.com/forums/goto/post?id=2719748 -- Thx @dayooper )
_*So I asked her--um, where is that info I can't find it on your site or any type of search?*_

She responded, "oh no, that is all internal.   We aren't going to go advertising that for everyone to find.  That information is just for members"
Hmm, ok, well that might be.  Ok, well, my parents are members.  It sounds like you are saying this program is official.  I read emails and letters to other members on official Hilton letterhead that said the program was not available until April 1st and that new members who buy after January 15th or existing who buy new shares after the 15th would automatically be upgraded--but that no DETAILS were available until April 1st AND that there is the possibility that the program could never materialize.
If it is official, where are the benefits listed for me to read about the program?

"Well, that's just a legal part which is needed to protect the program.  If you look, all companies do that."
Eh, you might be right, but I need to see WHAT we/they are actually being promised by enrolling today and signing the contract.  You said the program has launched.  Please show me where I can read about the specifics. 
She then repeats the line about having more properties available to members as found in the letter to members similar to the thread here:  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hgv-max-diamond-integration-discussion-in-owner-update.332533/    -- Thanks @Eric B
I said, yes, but the letter (referenced above) from Hilton says NO ADDITIONAL PURCHASE REQUIRED.  Furthermore, "NO reliance should be made on any oral representation regarding the possibility of future benefits..."

She had no real answer, just spin for this letter...and generally said she was unaware of this letter and that it might simply be fake.  I chose not to discuss the marketing paperwork released on Facebook regarding the transition (found in the link above - Thanks @Nowaker )

I said, ok, well, how is Max set up?  HGVC has a deed to a home property.  I am assuming that my parents are going to be deeded to a property now, where is that going to be?
*"Oh no, MAX is going to be set up in a trust--just like your parents have."* *There will not be a deed.  You simply pay for points.*
Umm, if there is no dead, but you said it was a "Real Estate" transaction -- where is the real property?  Because a REAL ESTATE transaction is a transaction of REAL property by definition. 
No real response for this and a deflection back to how max is a POINTS system just like Diamond.



At this point, I told her that I was no longer interested in anything that was not deeded or able to be sold on the open market. 
She then proceeded to talk about how much my family would lose in MFs gong forward if they did not make the change.
She talked about how my parents would need a lawyer and how it would cost potentially more than $20k to get out of the contract with Diamond since they were completely paid and contractually obligated to pay the MFs.
How if they died (YESSSSS!  WITH MY PARENTS ON THE PHONE), that they would come after legal heirs --including me or even my children-- for any unpaid MFs
I almost laughed at this since BOTH my parents' and my assets are protected behind trusts.


I just thanked her for the time and proceeded to get off the call and immediately call my parents back to tell them NOT TO TALK WITH HER AGAIN OR SIGN ANYTHING IN THAT OFFICE.  PERIOD.
I told her to wait until April 1st when the new program was launched and that it was almost certain that whatever deal they were offering now, would be available to them during the window of opportunity that was mentioned by Hilton.

There was more to this discussion, but these were the highlights.
In case it helps others, I am attaching a copy of the form that Yasamin was working with my parents on. It includes some very creative accounting. We had spoken on the phone for more than an hour and while I intended to go over the numbers with her, I had heard enough to raise so many flags that I didn't need to know more. Here are my questions:

Is the $180,000.00 a shell game number that they are saying Max is worth?  Or is this the value of my parents' plan right now?
The new purchase amount is $20,317 and yet the total "Financed Amount" is $21,067 -- where is the other money going?
Why are they charging a higher maintenance fee "based on added points" in the upper right corner?
It seems that the "Bonus DDH" (points) are a one-time addition?

Is Max now an un-deeded offering? and if so, damn the MFs are crazy.
I have no idea what the $600/wk based upon availability chicken scratch is in the lower right.


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## GT75

I deleted the DRI proprietary information that was attached.    This isn't allowed.


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## Mongoose

jayhawker said:


> *THANK YOU TUGBBS FOR GIVING ME THE INFORMATION TO HELP MY PARENTS TODAY.*
> 
> I am going to cross-post in both the HGVC and Diamond sections as I felt this should be information for both places.
> This is my experience today with Yasamin (spelled phonetically and probably Jasmin) on the phone today from Mystic Dunes.  I was on a conference call with her and my parents at the same time as they went through their MU.
> Attached is a copy of the proposal Yasamin wanted my parents to sign.
> Background:
> My parents are early 70s
> Have been Diamond members for ~15 years and actively use their points and vacation often across the US.  They love the program and are part of the US Collection, Trust (no deed--that I know of).
> My step-father was just diagnosed with dementia this year (which Yasamin did not know at the time of visit)
> My parents are concerned with their future ability to travel, whether their program can be inherited, the increasing MFs of Diamond, and what the buyout holds for them.
> 
> My mother called yesterday. She was very excited to tell me that they are potentially going to hand down a small portion of my "inheritance" soon and wanted my input regarding whether I am interested in taking over their travel program at some point in the near future? She said Hilton had bought out Diamond and that they scheduled their owner's meeting during a stay at Mystic Dunes this week. After getting the information, the felt it was best to set up a conference call so we all could talk about options Hilton had for their program in the future.
> 
> Yasamin called and set up the three-way conversation. Most of the discussion centered around what my parents and Yasamin discussed the prior day and the contract they were about to sign. The main points:
> 
> Yasamin described herself specifically as a HVC Max specialist whose job was to specifically transition people from Diamond to HVC Max.
> She said that timeshares are things of the past and everything was moving to a more streamlined platform where points could be used for things like vacation rentals, nights at exclusive places like the Waldorf or Conrad, cruises, HHonors points, even "House" rentals in the same manner as VRBO.  She also used examples such as rental car purchases or gift cards.  "The whole program is changing" and "very exciting."
> She was very vague, but told my mother (to her best understanding) that if she did not sign up for Max, that her (already high) MFs would *double* because they will now be part of TWO programs which would need to be maintained.
> Ahh!  But her ability to fight on the behalf of my parents to get them changed over and to waive an add-on points program they had recently signed up for would fix everything.  They just needed to buy a new $30K investment in HVC Max which would negate their old Diamond contract and make the world right.  The good news?  She was able to get that price down even more.
> All they had to do was sign a contract for $21,067 at 15.79% interest for 10 years -- for the low price of $356.15 per month -->>>> AND $4192 maintenance fees -->>>> for 15,000 (current annual allotment) points AND (SCORE, RIGHT!?!) 7500 bonus points...subject to availability.
> Ps., she never asked if my parents wanted to pay outright rather than finance IF they wanted to move forward anyhow.
> THANK GOD MY PARENTS DIDN'T SIGN THIS AND CALLED TO ASK IF I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN TAKING OVER ONE DAY....
> 
> My home family:  We have been looking at a few different programs for a period of time.  Mildly familiar with the terms of each program and knew my parents were always happy with their experiences.  Financially well established and can pay cash for any program or investment we choose to settle upon.  Previously a HHonors Diamond Elite member and familiar with Hilton and have been approached about HC before.  Open minded to talk with Yasamin and might have even bought our own deed today at Valdoro if the numbers were correct.  *THANK YOU FOR THE YEARLY MFs vs Points SPREADSHEET!!!  *
> 
> I looked at the sales sheet which I will attach below.  I was stunned.  WTH is this?  16% interest?  For what?  Yasamin, what is this for?
> "Well, that is the money required to switch your parents in the the much better Max program and get them out of the incredibly high MFs they pay now."  "Your parents are getting older and you don't want them to continue to be financially burdened by such high fees, do you?"  (with my parents on the phone)
> 
> I'm sorry, but I did some research on this program, and it isn't even launched yet--and wont be until April 1st.  Is that correct?
> "Oh no.  Where did you get that information?  We are selling this program right now.  The information is out there."
> She then referenced a form which my parents saw but she did not send with them
> I guess this form talks about grandfathering the Diamond members into Max--but that there was a cost for doing so.
> This might be true as may be (as has been discussed on this forum) three tiers and the Diamond members are the lowest and get the leftover, non HGVC properties which are transitioned.
> I would suspect is going to be your ticket to being able to use your points at a location in any of the three tiers, at Hilton hotel portfolio properties, and all the other bells and whistles they will throw into the program.  That has been discussed on TUG in many threads. (https://tugbbs.com/forums/goto/post?id=2719748 -- Thx @dayooper )
> _*So I asked her--um, where is that info I can't find it on your site or any type of search?*_
> 
> She responded, "oh no, that is all internal.   We aren't going to go advertising that for everyone to find.  That information is just for members"
> Hmm, ok, well that might be.  Ok, well, my parents are members.  It sounds like you are saying this program is official.  I read emails and letters to other members on official Hilton letterhead that said the program was not available until April 1st and that new members who buy after January 15th or existing who buy new shares after the 15th would automatically be upgraded--but that no DETAILS were available until April 1st AND that there is the possibility that the program could never materialize.
> If it is official, where are the benefits listed for me to read about the program?
> 
> "Well, that's just a legal part which is needed to protect the program.  If you look, all companies do that."
> Eh, you might be right, but I need to see WHAT we/they are actually being promised by enrolling today and signing the contract.  You said the program has launched.  Please show me where I can read about the specifics.
> She then repeats the line about having more properties available to members as found in the letter to members similar to the thread here:  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hgv-max-diamond-integration-discussion-in-owner-update.332533/    -- Thanks @Eric B
> I said, yes, but the letter (referenced above) from Hilton says NO ADDITIONAL PURCHASE REQUIRED.  Furthermore, "NO reliance should be made on any oral representation regarding the possibility of future benefits..."
> 
> She had no real answer, just spin for this letter...and generally said she was unaware of this letter and that it might simply be fake.  I chose not to discuss the marketing paperwork released on Facebook regarding the transition (found in the link above - Thanks @Nowaker )
> 
> I said, ok, well, how is Max set up?  HGVC has a deed to a home property.  I am assuming that my parents are going to be deeded to a property now, where is that going to be?
> *"Oh no, MAX is going to be set up in a trust--just like your parents have."* *There will not be a deed.  You simply pay for points.*
> Umm, if there is no dead, but you said it was a "Real Estate" transaction -- where is the real property?  Because a REAL ESTATE transaction is a transaction of REAL property by definition.
> No real response for this and a deflection back to how max is a POINTS system just like Diamond.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point, I told her that I was no longer interested in anything that was not deeded or able to be sold on the open market.
> She then proceeded to talk about how much my family would lose in MFs gong forward if they did not make the change.
> She talked about how my parents would need a lawyer and how it would cost potentially more than $20k to get out of the contract with Diamond since they were completely paid and contractually obligated to pay the MFs.
> How if they died (YESSSSS!  WITH MY PARENTS ON THE PHONE), that they would come after legal heirs --including me or even my children-- for any unpaid MFs
> I almost laughed at this since BOTH my parents' and my assets are protected behind trusts.
> 
> 
> I just thanked her for the time and proceeded to get off the call and immediately call my parents back to tell them NOT TO TALK WITH HER AGAIN OR SIGN ANYTHING IN THAT OFFICE.  PERIOD.
> I told her to wait until April 1st when the new program was launched and that it was almost certain that whatever deal they were offering now, would be available to them during the window of opportunity that was mentioned by Hilton.
> 
> There was more to this discussion, but these were the highlights.
> In case it helps others, I am attaching a copy of the form that Yasamin was working with my parents on. It includes some very creative accounting. We had spoken on the phone for more than an hour and while I intended to go over the numbers with her, I had heard enough to raise so many flags that I didn't need to know more. Here are my questions:
> 
> Is the $180,000.00 a shell game number that they are saying Max is worth?  Or is this the value of my parents' plan right now?
> The new purchase amount is $20,317 and yet the total "Financed Amount" is $21,067 -- where is the other money going?
> Why are they charging a higher maintenance fee "based on added points" in the upper right corner?
> It seems that the "Bonus DDH" (points) are a one-time addition?
> 
> Is Max now an un-deeded offering? and if so, damn the MFs are crazy.
> I have no idea what the $600/wk based upon availability chicken scratch is in the lower right.


Pretty typical timeshare tactics.  DRI in my opinion is one of the worst at this.  i bought a 3br platinum at Mystic Dunes for $1 on the resale market.  Loved it until DRI acquired it and ended up giving it back to them.  To me, a timeshare only makes sense if it’s bought at resale prices with low MF.  With pure point systems you have no guarenteed stay.


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## elysium5

Mongoose said:


> Pretty typical timeshare tactics.  DRI in my opinion is one of the worst at this.  i bought a 3br platinum at Mystic Dunes for $1 on the resale market.  Loved it until DRI acquired it and ended up giving it back to them.  To me, a timeshare only makes sense if it’s bought at resale prices with low MF.  With pure point systems you have no guarenteed stay.


I find that timeshare salesmen in the US are the most aggressive. I had a presentation at West 57th Street. There was a former footballer who was presenting - he was H U G E. At the end I said no (obviously), as I wasn't sure what I was getting myself into. He then got two of his buddies to come over and berate me:

"Be a man. Do the right thing"
"Have some balls. You can do it"
"Take a chance in life"
"I was wrong about you. You haven't go what it takes"

It felt more like a mugging

Even if it was a great deal (it wasn't), I would refuse to do business with people like this


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## alwysonvac

jayhawker said:


> THANK GOD MY PARENTS DIDN'T SIGN THIS AND CALLED TO ASK IF I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN TAKING OVER ONE DAY





jayhawker said:


> [*]I just thanked her for the time and proceeded to get off the call and immediately call my parents back to tell them NOT TO TALK WITH HER AGAIN OR SIGN ANYTHING IN THAT OFFICE.  PERIOD.



Welcome to TUG and Thanks for sharing your story. Thank God you were able to stop them.

Tell your parents to stay away from the sales folks (aka owner updates). As you saw first hand for yourself, the sales team is only promoting fear and lies to get folks to buy. Sadly this type of stuff happens every day (not just with Diamond or HGVC) and some are worst than others.


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## jayhawker

Sad that they have to revert to these tactics to make a sale.  Generally, most folks who are in there in the first place, are doing so because they really are interested.


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## jayhawker

Mongoose said:


> Pretty typical timeshare tactics.  DRI in my opinion is one of the worst at this.  i bought a 3br platinum at Mystic Dunes for $1 on the resale market.  Loved it until DRI acquired it and ended up giving it back to them.  To me, a timeshare only makes sense if it’s bought at resale prices with low MF.  With pure point systems you have no guarenteed stay.



Indeed, that was a point we discussed which I left out above.  They said Max was going to be a completely POINT BASED system.  I was like, nope, I need a deed for it to be worth it.  

I then followed up with a few deeds I found on the OM at that very minute and she had all kinds of spin regarding how you are a second-rate citizen if you buy on the open market and kept mentioning how you were not entitled to all the same benefits.  Is this correct?


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## elysium5

jayhawker said:


> Indeed, that was a point we discussed which I left out above.  They said Max was going to be a completely POINT BASED system.  I was like, nope, I need a deed for it to be worth it.
> 
> I then followed up with a few deeds I found on the OM at that very minute and she had all kinds of spin regarding how you are a second-rate citizen if you buy on the open market and kept mentioning how you were not entitled to all the same benefits.  Is this correct?



This link describes the differences between the timeshare systems. It says that the differences between developer and resale for Hilton are 'minor'. From my reading, it looks like most of the benefits transfer upon resale. But the HGVC resale owners can confirm...

She is surely getting huge pressure to complete the sale, and is coming up with any line she can. She is thinking about her mortgage and her bills, and can justify this terrible behavior to herself.


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## dayooper

jayhawker said:


> Indeed, that was a point we discussed which I left out above.  They said Max was going to be a completely POINT BASED system.  I was like, nope, I need a deed for it to be worth it.
> 
> I then followed up with a few deeds I found on the OM at that very minute and she had all kinds of spin regarding how you are a second-rate citizen if you buy on the open market and kept mentioning how you were not entitled to all the same benefits.  Is this correct?



I am a full resale owner and I have the same booking windows as any other owner. I am still treated very well when I arrive, usually get my room requests and, if I have any issues with my room, they are very quick to to fix it. In fact, the only benefit I currently don’t have is I can’t earn towards Elite status. That’s not worth the tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars to get.

In my experience, the HGVC system is pretty for us. It’s flexible and I like the resorts e to so far. I avoid sales presentations at all costs and have been very happy.

I know nothing of the DRI system, except they have a very bad reputation on the sales side (worse than HGVC). I have never set foot in one of their resorts so I can’t comment on them either.


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## pedro47

To the OP, thanks for been a caring and an outstanding son for protecting your parents.
Off the top of my pea brain at $356 per months for ten (10) years not including yearly MF costs.
That timeshare upgrade would have cost your parents roughly $42,720.00 dollars.


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## magmue

> ... How if they died (YESSSSS!  WITH MY PARENTS ON THE PHONE), that they would come after legal heirs --including me or even my children-- for any unpaid MFs. I almost laughed at this since BOTH my parents' and my assets are protected behind trusts.


Either blatant ignorance or a bold faced (and cruelly applied) lie. With or without a trust, heirs can decline timeshares without penalty or obligation.


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## geist1223

Remember the Sales People are now HGVC Employees.


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## jayhawker

pedro47 said:


> To the OP, thanks for been a caring and an outstanding son for protecting your parents.
> Off the top of my pea brain at $356 per months for ten (10) years not including yearly MF costs.
> That timeshare upgrade would have cost your parents roughly $42,720.00 dollars.



I did that quick math too and was amazed that she tried to get this through.  According to the contract which was attached, but removed according to board rules, there was a clause which said there was no prepayment penalty.  What I am unclear with was whether the prepayment would have been required to include the full amount of term financing or not.  The obvious answer is no, but I have seen otherwise in life.  Given that there was a trust issue here, I was not confident in my understanding.



magmue said:


> Either blatant ignorance or a bold faced (and cruelly applied) lie. With or without a trust, heirs can decline timeshares without penalty or obligation.



Thanks.  While not worried, I was not sure what their tactics and standards were as well.  



geist1223 said:


> Remember the Sales People are now HGVC Employees.



That's why I felt maybe it was best for this to fall in both forums given that she was Hilton's rep on the Diamond site who was tasked with converting (aka, transitioning) Diamond members.


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## dayooper

geist1223 said:


> Remember the Sales People are now HGVC Employees.



Yup. Reportedly, they have let some go for their tactics. Whether that’s true or not, who knows. If I were @jayhawker I would consider reporting her to HGVC.

I’m not defending the timeshare salesman or even the ethics of company, just have heard that on various platforms.


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## Larry M

alwysonvac said:


> Welcome to TUG and Thanks for sharing your story. Thank God you were able to stop them.
> 
> Tell your parents to stay away from the sales folks (aka owner updates). As you saw first hand for yourself, the sales team is only promoting fear and lies to get folks to buy. Sadly this type of stuff happens every day (not just with Diamond or HGVC) and some are worst than others.


Ahh, the notorious owner updates.

I no longer have any timeshares. I gave one back to the HOA about a decade ago and the other is closing down, selling the property, and splitting the proceeds among the paid-up owners, BUT I STILL GET PHONE CALLS ABOUT OWNER UPDATES!! I always ask "What is the name of your company?" and get some nebulous answer, and then demand to know "Which timeshare are you calling about?" They will never identify one. I wonder if they get my contact information by scraping this website...

(I also get calls about expiring extended warranties on my vehicles, but they can never tell me about which vehicle it is.)


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## Talent312

Jayhawker, whatever your parents (or you) own now, you will continue to own (whether under the HGV umbrella or not). As long as you are satisfied with that, and don't feel a need to enter HGV-land, there's no reason to even think about HGV Max. Even if you did, it would be far cheaper to buy a HGVC TS resale for $0.50-$1.00 per point, and get all the HGVC benefits (except elite status).

A TS sales-weasel at an "update" once tried to get me to trade my week for their new travel-points program becuz TS-weeks were going to disappear. Only I'd need to shell out $$$ to get in on it.  My response: "My week is not going to disappear. We come here every friggin' year, and expect to do so until the end of time" (which was fine with us, err rather, DW). That was six years ago, and yes, we still go there every friggin' year.

Last year, they offered us $150 to attend another update. We declined.
.


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## heitmullerj02

I own @ HGVC Marbrisa in Carlsbad, CA. Purchased resale through Ebay, (for pennies).I have been to 2 owners updates in the past year and will be going again in a few weeks. I have found their sales people (yes its still a sales event) to be pretty professional, so I am surprised at this. They were more aggressive in Orlando than my home resort and did not have updated info either, but I just kept saying NO and got the gift card. I usually take the free  Hilton Hotel points, it seems easier for them to accept the NO then. HGVC treats me the same and since I use my home resort have not had any issues. I am concerned about availability once Diamond Owners come on board. It does however open up more resorts, especially in Sedona, so I am looking forward to the merge.


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## Snazzylass

magmue said:


> Either blatant ignorance or a bold faced (and cruelly applied) lie. With or without a trust, heirs can decline timeshares without penalty or obligation.


Exactly! That is one of the more ridiculous statements. She drops the threat of the heirs owing unpaid MFs ...um, no.


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## Snazzylass

jayhawker said:


> Sad that they have to revert to these tactics to make a sale.  Generally, most folks who are in there in the first place, are doing so because they really are interested.


Well, let's not be so naive. People might be interested in hearing about the opportunity or learning more. Beyond that, it's a leap to say someone is "interested." After anyone learns more, they may not be interested in proceeding - that's where you and your parents are, and rightly so!

And, who has to pay $100 or offer a gift of value to get you in the door? What does that say?


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## Snazzylass

jayhawker said:


> *THANK YOU TUGBBS FOR GIVING ME THE INFORMATION TO HELP MY PARENTS TODAY.*
> 
> I am going to cross-post in both the HGVC and Diamond sections as I felt this should be information for both places.
> This is my experience today with Yasamin (spelled phonetically and probably Jasmin) on the phone today from Mystic Dunes.  I was on a conference call with her and my parents at the same time as they went through their MU.
> Attached is a copy of the proposal Yasamin wanted my parents to sign.
> Background:
> My parents are early 70s
> Have been Diamond members for ~15 years and actively use their points and vacation often across the US.  They love the program and are part of the US Collection, Trust (no deed--that I know of).
> My step-father was just diagnosed with dementia this year (which Yasamin did not know at the time of visit)
> My parents are concerned with their future ability to travel, whether their program can be inherited, the increasing MFs of Diamond, and what the buyout holds for them.
> 
> My mother called yesterday. She was very excited to tell me that they are potentially going to hand down a small portion of my "inheritance" soon and wanted my input regarding whether I am interested in taking over their travel program at some point in the near future? She said Hilton had bought out Diamond and that they scheduled their owner's meeting during a stay at Mystic Dunes this week. After getting the information, the felt it was best to set up a conference call so we all could talk about options Hilton had for their program in the future.
> 
> Yasamin called and set up the three-way conversation. Most of the discussion centered around what my parents and Yasamin discussed the prior day and the contract they were about to sign. The main points:
> 
> Yasamin described herself specifically as a HVC Max specialist whose job was to specifically transition people from Diamond to HVC Max.
> She said that timeshares are things of the past and everything was moving to a more streamlined platform where points could be used for things like vacation rentals, nights at exclusive places like the Waldorf or Conrad, cruises, HHonors points, even "House" rentals in the same manner as VRBO.  She also used examples such as rental car purchases or gift cards.  "The whole program is changing" and "very exciting."
> She was very vague, but told my mother (to her best understanding) that if she did not sign up for Max, that her (already high) MFs would *double* because they will now be part of TWO programs which would need to be maintained.
> Ahh!  But her ability to fight on the behalf of my parents to get them changed over and to waive an add-on points program they had recently signed up for would fix everything.  They just needed to buy a new $30K investment in HVC Max which would negate their old Diamond contract and make the world right.  The good news?  She was able to get that price down even more.
> All they had to do was sign a contract for $21,067 at 15.79% interest for 10 years -- for the low price of $356.15 per month -->>>> AND $4192 maintenance fees -->>>> for 15,000 (current annual allotment) points AND (SCORE, RIGHT!?!) 7500 bonus points...subject to availability.
> Ps., she never asked if my parents wanted to pay outright rather than finance IF they wanted to move forward anyhow.
> THANK GOD MY PARENTS DIDN'T SIGN THIS AND CALLED TO ASK IF I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN TAKING OVER ONE DAY....
> 
> My home family:  We have been looking at a few different programs for a period of time.  Mildly familiar with the terms of each program and knew my parents were always happy with their experiences.  Financially well established and can pay cash for any program or investment we choose to settle upon.  Previously a HHonors Diamond Elite member and familiar with Hilton and have been approached about HC before.  Open minded to talk with Yasamin and might have even bought our own deed today at Valdoro if the numbers were correct.  *THANK YOU FOR THE YEARLY MFs vs Points SPREADSHEET!!!  *
> 
> I looked at the sales sheet which I will attach below.  I was stunned.  WTH is this?  16% interest?  For what?  Yasamin, what is this for?
> "Well, that is the money required to switch your parents in the the much better Max program and get them out of the incredibly high MFs they pay now."  "Your parents are getting older and you don't want them to continue to be financially burdened by such high fees, do you?"  (with my parents on the phone)
> 
> I'm sorry, but I did some research on this program, and it isn't even launched yet--and wont be until April 1st.  Is that correct?
> "Oh no.  Where did you get that information?  We are selling this program right now.  The information is out there."
> She then referenced a form which my parents saw but she did not send with them
> I guess this form talks about grandfathering the Diamond members into Max--but that there was a cost for doing so.
> This might be true as may be (as has been discussed on this forum) three tiers and the Diamond members are the lowest and get the leftover, non HGVC properties which are transitioned.
> I would suspect is going to be your ticket to being able to use your points at a location in any of the three tiers, at Hilton hotel portfolio properties, and all the other bells and whistles they will throw into the program.  That has been discussed on TUG in many threads. (https://tugbbs.com/forums/goto/post?id=2719748 -- Thx @dayooper )
> _*So I asked her--um, where is that info I can't find it on your site or any type of search?*_
> 
> She responded, "oh no, that is all internal.   We aren't going to go advertising that for everyone to find.  That information is just for members"
> Hmm, ok, well that might be.  Ok, well, my parents are members.  It sounds like you are saying this program is official.  I read emails and letters to other members on official Hilton letterhead that said the program was not available until April 1st and that new members who buy after January 15th or existing who buy new shares after the 15th would automatically be upgraded--but that no DETAILS were available until April 1st AND that there is the possibility that the program could never materialize.
> If it is official, where are the benefits listed for me to read about the program?
> 
> "Well, that's just a legal part which is needed to protect the program.  If you look, all companies do that."
> Eh, you might be right, but I need to see WHAT we/they are actually being promised by enrolling today and signing the contract.  You said the program has launched.  Please show me where I can read about the specifics.
> She then repeats the line about having more properties available to members as found in the letter to members similar to the thread here:  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hgv-max-diamond-integration-discussion-in-owner-update.332533/    -- Thanks @Eric B
> I said, yes, but the letter (referenced above) from Hilton says NO ADDITIONAL PURCHASE REQUIRED.  Furthermore, "NO reliance should be made on any oral representation regarding the possibility of future benefits..."
> 
> She had no real answer, just spin for this letter...and generally said she was unaware of this letter and that it might simply be fake.  I chose not to discuss the marketing paperwork released on Facebook regarding the transition (found in the link above - Thanks @Nowaker )
> 
> I said, ok, well, how is Max set up?  HGVC has a deed to a home property.  I am assuming that my parents are going to be deeded to a property now, where is that going to be?
> *"Oh no, MAX is going to be set up in a trust--just like your parents have."* *There will not be a deed.  You simply pay for points.*
> Umm, if there is no dead, but you said it was a "Real Estate" transaction -- where is the real property?  Because a REAL ESTATE transaction is a transaction of REAL property by definition.
> No real response for this and a deflection back to how max is a POINTS system just like Diamond.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point, I told her that I was no longer interested in anything that was not deeded or able to be sold on the open market.
> She then proceeded to talk about how much my family would lose in MFs gong forward if they did not make the change.
> She talked about how my parents would need a lawyer and how it would cost potentially more than $20k to get out of the contract with Diamond since they were completely paid and contractually obligated to pay the MFs.
> How if they died (YESSSSS!  WITH MY PARENTS ON THE PHONE), that they would come after legal heirs --including me or even my children-- for any unpaid MFs
> I almost laughed at this since BOTH my parents' and my assets are protected behind trusts.
> 
> 
> I just thanked her for the time and proceeded to get off the call and immediately call my parents back to tell them NOT TO TALK WITH HER AGAIN OR SIGN ANYTHING IN THAT OFFICE.  PERIOD.
> I told her to wait until April 1st when the new program was launched and that it was almost certain that whatever deal they were offering now, would be available to them during the window of opportunity that was mentioned by Hilton.
> 
> There was more to this discussion, but these were the highlights.
> In case it helps others, I am attaching a copy of the form that Yasamin was working with my parents on. It includes some very creative accounting. We had spoken on the phone for more than an hour and while I intended to go over the numbers with her, I had heard enough to raise so many flags that I didn't need to know more. Here are my questions:
> 
> Is the $180,000.00 a shell game number that they are saying Max is worth?  Or is this the value of my parents' plan right now?
> The new purchase amount is $20,317 and yet the total "Financed Amount" is $21,067 -- where is the other money going?
> Why are they charging a higher maintenance fee "based on added points" in the upper right corner?
> It seems that the "Bonus DDH" (points) are a one-time addition?
> 
> Is Max now an un-deeded offering? and if so, damn the MFs are crazy.
> I have no idea what the $600/wk based upon availability chicken scratch is in the lower right.


Just want to say, thank you for posting! Thank you for sharing! I completely agree about deeds versus points! All the best to you and your family.


----------



## Arusso

jayhawker said:


> *THANK YOU TUGBBS FOR GIVING ME THE INFORMATION TO HELP MY PARENTS TODAY.*
> 
> I am going to cross-post in both the HGVC and Diamond sections as I felt this should be information for both places.
> This is my experience today with Yasamin (spelled phonetically and probably Jasmin) on the phone today from Mystic Dunes.  I was on a conference call with her and my parents at the same time as they went through their MU.
> Attached is a copy of the proposal Yasamin wanted my parents to sign.
> Background:
> My parents are early 70s
> Have been Diamond members for ~15 years and actively use their points and vacation often across the US.  They love the program and are part of the US Collection, Trust (no deed--that I know of).
> My step-father was just diagnosed with dementia this year (which Yasamin did not know at the time of visit)
> My parents are concerned with their future ability to travel, whether their program can be inherited, the increasing MFs of Diamond, and what the buyout holds for them.
> 
> My mother called yesterday. She was very excited to tell me that they are potentially going to hand down a small portion of my "inheritance" soon and wanted my input regarding whether I am interested in taking over their travel program at some point in the near future? She said Hilton had bought out Diamond and that they scheduled their owner's meeting during a stay at Mystic Dunes this week. After getting the information, the felt it was best to set up a conference call so we all could talk about options Hilton had for their program in the future.
> 
> Yasamin called and set up the three-way conversation. Most of the discussion centered around what my parents and Yasamin discussed the prior day and the contract they were about to sign. The main points:
> 
> Yasamin described herself specifically as a HVC Max specialist whose job was to specifically transition people from Diamond to HVC Max.
> She said that timeshares are things of the past and everything was moving to a more streamlined platform where points could be used for things like vacation rentals, nights at exclusive places like the Waldorf or Conrad, cruises, HHonors points, even "House" rentals in the same manner as VRBO.  She also used examples such as rental car purchases or gift cards.  "The whole program is changing" and "very exciting."
> She was very vague, but told my mother (to her best understanding) that if she did not sign up for Max, that her (already high) MFs would *double* because they will now be part of TWO programs which would need to be maintained.
> Ahh!  But her ability to fight on the behalf of my parents to get them changed over and to waive an add-on points program they had recently signed up for would fix everything.  They just needed to buy a new $30K investment in HVC Max which would negate their old Diamond contract and make the world right.  The good news?  She was able to get that price down even more.
> All they had to do was sign a contract for $21,067 at 15.79% interest for 10 years -- for the low price of $356.15 per month -->>>> AND $4192 maintenance fees -->>>> for 15,000 (current annual allotment) points AND (SCORE, RIGHT!?!) 7500 bonus points...subject to availability.
> Ps., she never asked if my parents wanted to pay outright rather than finance IF they wanted to move forward anyhow.
> THANK GOD MY PARENTS DIDN'T SIGN THIS AND CALLED TO ASK IF I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN TAKING OVER ONE DAY....
> 
> My home family:  We have been looking at a few different programs for a period of time.  Mildly familiar with the terms of each program and knew my parents were always happy with their experiences.  Financially well established and can pay cash for any program or investment we choose to settle upon.  Previously a HHonors Diamond Elite member and familiar with Hilton and have been approached about HC before.  Open minded to talk with Yasamin and might have even bought our own deed today at Valdoro if the numbers were correct.  *THANK YOU FOR THE YEARLY MFs vs Points SPREADSHEET!!!  *
> 
> I looked at the sales sheet which I will attach below.  I was stunned.  WTH is this?  16% interest?  For what?  Yasamin, what is this for?
> "Well, that is the money required to switch your parents in the the much better Max program and get them out of the incredibly high MFs they pay now."  "Your parents are getting older and you don't want them to continue to be financially burdened by such high fees, do you?"  (with my parents on the phone)
> 
> I'm sorry, but I did some research on this program, and it isn't even launched yet--and wont be until April 1st.  Is that correct?
> "Oh no.  Where did you get that information?  We are selling this program right now.  The information is out there."
> She then referenced a form which my parents saw but she did not send with them
> I guess this form talks about grandfathering the Diamond members into Max--but that there was a cost for doing so.
> This might be true as may be (as has been discussed on this forum) three tiers and the Diamond members are the lowest and get the leftover, non HGVC properties which are transitioned.
> I would suspect is going to be your ticket to being able to use your points at a location in any of the three tiers, at Hilton hotel portfolio properties, and all the other bells and whistles they will throw into the program.  That has been discussed on TUG in many threads. (https://tugbbs.com/forums/goto/post?id=2719748 -- Thx @dayooper )
> _*So I asked her--um, where is that info I can't find it on your site or any type of search?*_
> 
> She responded, "oh no, that is all internal.   We aren't going to go advertising that for everyone to find.  That information is just for members"
> Hmm, ok, well that might be.  Ok, well, my parents are members.  It sounds like you are saying this program is official.  I read emails and letters to other members on official Hilton letterhead that said the program was not available until April 1st and that new members who buy after January 15th or existing who buy new shares after the 15th would automatically be upgraded--but that no DETAILS were available until April 1st AND that there is the possibility that the program could never materialize.
> If it is official, where are the benefits listed for me to read about the program?
> 
> "Well, that's just a legal part which is needed to protect the program.  If you look, all companies do that."
> Eh, you might be right, but I need to see WHAT we/they are actually being promised by enrolling today and signing the contract.  You said the program has launched.  Please show me where I can read about the specifics.
> She then repeats the line about having more properties available to members as found in the letter to members similar to the thread here:  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hgv-max-diamond-integration-discussion-in-owner-update.332533/    -- Thanks @Eric B
> I said, yes, but the letter (referenced above) from Hilton says NO ADDITIONAL PURCHASE REQUIRED.  Furthermore, "NO reliance should be made on any oral representation regarding the possibility of future benefits..."
> 
> She had no real answer, just spin for this letter...and generally said she was unaware of this letter and that it might simply be fake.  I chose not to discuss the marketing paperwork released on Facebook regarding the transition (found in the link above - Thanks @Nowaker )
> 
> I said, ok, well, how is Max set up?  HGVC has a deed to a home property.  I am assuming that my parents are going to be deeded to a property now, where is that going to be?
> *"Oh no, MAX is going to be set up in a trust--just like your parents have."* *There will not be a deed.  You simply pay for points.*
> Umm, if there is no dead, but you said it was a "Real Estate" transaction -- where is the real property?  Because a REAL ESTATE transaction is a transaction of REAL property by definition.
> No real response for this and a deflection back to how max is a POINTS system just like Diamond.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point, I told her that I was no longer interested in anything that was not deeded or able to be sold on the open market.
> She then proceeded to talk about how much my family would lose in MFs gong forward if they did not make the change.
> She talked about how my parents would need a lawyer and how it would cost potentially more than $20k to get out of the contract with Diamond since they were completely paid and contractually obligated to pay the MFs.
> How if they died (YESSSSS!  WITH MY PARENTS ON THE PHONE), that they would come after legal heirs --including me or even my children-- for any unpaid MFs
> I almost laughed at this since BOTH my parents' and my assets are protected behind trusts.
> 
> 
> I just thanked her for the time and proceeded to get off the call and immediately call my parents back to tell them NOT TO TALK WITH HER AGAIN OR SIGN ANYTHING IN THAT OFFICE.  PERIOD.
> I told her to wait until April 1st when the new program was launched and that it was almost certain that whatever deal they were offering now, would be available to them during the window of opportunity that was mentioned by Hilton.
> 
> There was more to this discussion, but these were the highlights.
> In case it helps others, I am attaching a copy of the form that Yasamin was working with my parents on. It includes some very creative accounting. We had spoken on the phone for more than an hour and while I intended to go over the numbers with her, I had heard enough to raise so many flags that I didn't need to know more. Here are my questions:
> 
> Is the $180,000.00 a shell game number that they are saying Max is worth?  Or is this the value of my parents' plan right now?
> The new purchase amount is $20,317 and yet the total "Financed Amount" is $21,067 -- where is the other money going?
> Why are they charging a higher maintenance fee "based on added points" in the upper right corner?
> It seems that the "Bonus DDH" (points) are a one-time addition?
> 
> Is Max now an un-deeded offering? and if so, damn the MFs are crazy.
> I have no idea what the $600/wk based upon availability chicken scratch is in the lower right.


Thank you for sharing this.  Your parents are fortunate to have had you intervene and save them money that could be used for better things in life.  After having attended several OMs over the years, the pitch is pretty predictable - the purpose, of course,  is to get you to buy more points despite the fact that the points come with even more MFs.  

The points typically are part of a "promotion" at an outrageous inflated price  The pitch is to tell owners their holding(s) (deeded or points) are, third class citizens and they need to upgrade.   This was the very tactic used when I attended an OM last November. In the case of DRI being now HGV, the name changes but the tactics as reported by persons recently attending OMs remain the same.  As a result, we have all been wondering what the latest strategy (scheme) would be. We now know.  Thank you.  It is the HGV Max conversion.  Hopefully, we will all learn more "if"  the program is rolled out officially in April.


----------



## Arusso

dayooper said:


> Yup. Reportedly, they have let some go for their tactics. Whether that’s true or not, who knows. If I were @jayhawker I would consider reporting her to HGVC.
> 
> I’m not defending the timeshare salesman or even the ethics of company, just have heard that on various platforms.


You got me thinking.  Reporting the sales person to her employer may or may not have the desired outcome.  All TS contracts, whether they are based in deeds, trusts, points etc.,  are founded in a physical resort i.e. real estate.  That's the reason resorts have HOAs and why MFs exist.  As such, what would be more effective to protect consumers is for states to require all TS sales persons to be licensed in real estate and the employer be a bonded  licensed brokerage.  Currently, salespersons at the Owner's Updates can say whatever they want without consequence.  If the persons involved in sales were licensed it would bring a level of ethics that is currently lacking and misrepresenting a product or program would be met with consequences.


----------



## jayhawker

Thanks for the input all.  I am soaking in all of your information.  It seems many of my suspicions and intuitions were correct here.

I worked in real estate for several years, and I completely agree with you @Arusso.  I feel the only contract worth anything is one which is attached to a physical deed.  Likewise, I have very little hope that any efforts to report this person would come to any true fruition.  If anything, I would fear that it would flag them for some reason.  My stepfather is a highly intelligent person--potentially one of the most frugal and well educated people I know--and this coming from someone who has a master's and my wife being a physician.  He has always approached things logically and systematically.  I was stunned to get this call after reviewing the terms and it speaks to how his health has changed.  

**After reading the responses here, I am truly grateful for everyone sharing their experiences and first-hand knowledge.  It made my job generally easy to filter the information which I was being provided.**

I still feel that my home family might benefit from looking at a discounted TS on the OM.  There are a number of brokers listed on these boards whom I will keep an eye on their inventory.  Likewise, I know my parents will continue to enjoy traveling for so long as my stepfather is able.  I will work with them to review the terms of Max when it drops.

-- I am assuming the Jan15th date which applies to new HGV purchases *DOES NOT* apply to OM purchases?  Is that a solid assumption?


----------



## SmithOp

jayhawker said:


> Thanks for the input all. I am soaking in all of your information. It seems many of my suspicions and intuitions were correct here.
> 
> 
> -- I am assuming the Jan15th date which applies to new HGV purchases *DOES NOT* apply to OM purchases? Is that a solid assumption?



Correct, must purchase from HGV to get Maxx as far as we know, it may transfer in the future if someone that bought in from HGV decides to sell, only time will tell, it's all speculation at this point.

There are other ways to trade in to DRI and HGV properties, and the price HGV is asking will pay for a lot of trades.

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


----------



## Gwendyc

We are very happy HGVC resale owners and recently went to a presentation. Fortunately, the sales rep was professional and not high pressure, but they did keep referring to our points as "restricted" and tried to offer us 1800 EOY points for more than twice what we just paid for our 4800 EOY points on the resale market (through one of the TUG recommended brokers last year). And yes, these 1800 points were going to have higher MF than our 4800 points, so I don't know why the Max points are going to have such high fees.


----------



## jayhawker

Gwendyc said:


> We are very happy HGVC resale owners and recently went to a presentation. Fortunately, the sales rep was professional and not high pressure, but they did keep referring to our points as "restricted" and tried to offer us 1800 EOY points for more than twice what we just paid for our 4800 EOY points on the resale market (through one of the TUG recommended brokers last year). And yes, these 1800 points were going to have higher MF than our 4800 points, so I don't know why the Max points are going to have such high fees.



Hmm, that does bring back something this agent said.  When I mentioned the existence of resale properties as an example (and not a threat), she did get an offended tone and said those points will be "restricted" and you won't be able access everything unless you had a Max designation.  By that point, I had generally dismissed everything she was saying, but this is a curious parallel.  I guess I will wait to see what April 1st brings.


----------



## Mongoose

Gwendyc said:


> We are very happy HGVC resale owners and recently went to a presentation. Fortunately, the sales rep was professional and not high pressure, but they did keep referring to our points as "restricted" and tried to offer us 1800 EOY points for more than twice what we just paid for our 4800 EOY points on the resale market (through one of the TUG recommended brokers last year). And yes, these 1800 points were going to have higher MF than our 4800 points, so I don't know why the Max points are going to have such high fees.


Because they are based on DRI which have high MFs.


----------



## goaliedave

dayooper said:


> Yup. Reportedly, they have let some go for their tactics. Whether that’s true or not, who knows. If I were @jayhawker I would consider reporting her to HGVC.
> 
> I’m not defending the timeshare salesman or even the ethics of company, just have heard that on various platforms.


Agree, report them. I got a salesperson fired once.


----------



## goaliedave

My lucky day today, they canceled my mandatory sales presentation, can't imagine why. I'm here on a 2 week corporate marketing promo. Was looking forward to comparing details.


----------



## Mongoose

goaliedave said:


> My lucky day today, they canceled my mandatory sales presentation, can't imagine why. I'm here on a 2 week corporate marketing promo. Was looking forward to comparing details.View attachment 47618View attachment 47618


How can it be mandatory?


----------



## Kakae

jayhawker said:


> *THANK YOU TUGBBS FOR GIVING ME THE INFORMATION TO HELP MY PARENTS TODAY.*
> 
> I am going to cross-post in both the HGVC and Diamond sections as I felt this should be information for both places.
> This is my experience today with Yasamin (spelled phonetically and probably Jasmin) on the phone today from Mystic Dunes.  I was on a conference call with her and my parents at the same time as they went through their MU.
> Attached is a copy of the proposal Yasamin wanted my parents to sign.
> Background:
> My parents are early 70s
> Have been Diamond members for ~15 years and actively use their points and vacation often across the US.  They love the program and are part of the US Collection, Trust (no deed--that I know of).
> My step-father was just diagnosed with dementia this year (which Yasamin did not know at the time of visit)
> My parents are concerned with their future ability to travel, whether their program can be inherited, the increasing MFs of Diamond, and what the buyout holds for them.
> 
> My mother called yesterday. She was very excited to tell me that they are potentially going to hand down a small portion of my "inheritance" soon and wanted my input regarding whether I am interested in taking over their travel program at some point in the near future? She said Hilton had bought out Diamond and that they scheduled their owner's meeting during a stay at Mystic Dunes this week. After getting the information, the felt it was best to set up a conference call so we all could talk about options Hilton had for their program in the future.
> 
> Yasamin called and set up the three-way conversation. Most of the discussion centered around what my parents and Yasamin discussed the prior day and the contract they were about to sign. The main points:
> 
> Yasamin described herself specifically as a HVC Max specialist whose job was to specifically transition people from Diamond to HVC Max.
> She said that timeshares are things of the past and everything was moving to a more streamlined platform where points could be used for things like vacation rentals, nights at exclusive places like the Waldorf or Conrad, cruises, HHonors points, even "House" rentals in the same manner as VRBO.  She also used examples such as rental car purchases or gift cards.  "The whole program is changing" and "very exciting."
> She was very vague, but told my mother (to her best understanding) that if she did not sign up for Max, that her (already high) MFs would *double* because they will now be part of TWO programs which would need to be maintained.
> Ahh!  But her ability to fight on the behalf of my parents to get them changed over and to waive an add-on points program they had recently signed up for would fix everything.  They just needed to buy a new $30K investment in HVC Max which would negate their old Diamond contract and make the world right.  The good news?  She was able to get that price down even more.
> All they had to do was sign a contract for $21,067 at 15.79% interest for 10 years -- for the low price of $356.15 per month -->>>> AND $4192 maintenance fees -->>>> for 15,000 (current annual allotment) points AND (SCORE, RIGHT!?!) 7500 bonus points...subject to availability.
> Ps., she never asked if my parents wanted to pay outright rather than finance IF they wanted to move forward anyhow.
> THANK GOD MY PARENTS DIDN'T SIGN THIS AND CALLED TO ASK IF I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN TAKING OVER ONE DAY....
> 
> My home family:  We have been looking at a few different programs for a period of time.  Mildly familiar with the terms of each program and knew my parents were always happy with their experiences.  Financially well established and can pay cash for any program or investment we choose to settle upon.  Previously a HHonors Diamond Elite member and familiar with Hilton and have been approached about HC before.  Open minded to talk with Yasamin and might have even bought our own deed today at Valdoro if the numbers were correct.  *THANK YOU FOR THE YEARLY MFs vs Points SPREADSHEET!!!  *
> 
> I looked at the sales sheet which I will attach below.  I was stunned.  WTH is this?  16% interest?  For what?  Yasamin, what is this for?
> "Well, that is the money required to switch your parents in the the much better Max program and get them out of the incredibly high MFs they pay now."  "Your parents are getting older and you don't want them to continue to be financially burdened by such high fees, do you?"  (with my parents on the phone)
> 
> I'm sorry, but I did some research on this program, and it isn't even launched yet--and wont be until April 1st.  Is that correct?
> "Oh no.  Where did you get that information?  We are selling this program right now.  The information is out there."
> She then referenced a form which my parents saw but she did not send with them
> I guess this form talks about grandfathering the Diamond members into Max--but that there was a cost for doing so.
> This might be true as may be (as has been discussed on this forum) three tiers and the Diamond members are the lowest and get the leftover, non HGVC properties which are transitioned.
> I would suspect is going to be your ticket to being able to use your points at a location in any of the three tiers, at Hilton hotel portfolio properties, and all the other bells and whistles they will throw into the program.  That has been discussed on TUG in many threads. (https://tugbbs.com/forums/goto/post?id=2719748 -- Thx @dayooper )
> _*So I asked her--um, where is that info I can't find it on your site or any type of search?*_
> 
> She responded, "oh no, that is all internal.   We aren't going to go advertising that for everyone to find.  That information is just for members"
> Hmm, ok, well that might be.  Ok, well, my parents are members.  It sounds like you are saying this program is official.  I read emails and letters to other members on official Hilton letterhead that said the program was not available until April 1st and that new members who buy after January 15th or existing who buy new shares after the 15th would automatically be upgraded--but that no DETAILS were available until April 1st AND that there is the possibility that the program could never materialize.
> If it is official, where are the benefits listed for me to read about the program?
> 
> "Well, that's just a legal part which is needed to protect the program.  If you look, all companies do that."
> Eh, you might be right, but I need to see WHAT we/they are actually being promised by enrolling today and signing the contract.  You said the program has launched.  Please show me where I can read about the specifics.
> She then repeats the line about having more properties available to members as found in the letter to members similar to the thread here:  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hgv-max-diamond-integration-discussion-in-owner-update.332533/    -- Thanks @Eric B
> I said, yes, but the letter (referenced above) from Hilton says NO ADDITIONAL PURCHASE REQUIRED.  Furthermore, "NO reliance should be made on any oral representation regarding the possibility of future benefits..."
> 
> She had no real answer, just spin for this letter...and generally said she was unaware of this letter and that it might simply be fake.  I chose not to discuss the marketing paperwork released on Facebook regarding the transition (found in the link above - Thanks @Nowaker )
> 
> I said, ok, well, how is Max set up?  HGVC has a deed to a home property.  I am assuming that my parents are going to be deeded to a property now, where is that going to be?
> *"Oh no, MAX is going to be set up in a trust--just like your parents have."* *There will not be a deed.  You simply pay for points.*
> Umm, if there is no dead, but you said it was a "Real Estate" transaction -- where is the real property?  Because a REAL ESTATE transaction is a transaction of REAL property by definition.
> No real response for this and a deflection back to how max is a POINTS system just like Diamond.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point, I told her that I was no longer interested in anything that was not deeded or able to be sold on the open market.
> She then proceeded to talk about how much my family would lose in MFs gong forward if they did not make the change.
> She talked about how my parents would need a lawyer and how it would cost potentially more than $20k to get out of the contract with Diamond since they were completely paid and contractually obligated to pay the MFs.
> How if they died (YESSSSS!  WITH MY PARENTS ON THE PHONE), that they would come after legal heirs --including me or even my children-- for any unpaid MFs
> I almost laughed at this since BOTH my parents' and my assets are protected behind trusts.
> 
> 
> I just thanked her for the time and proceeded to get off the call and immediately call my parents back to tell them NOT TO TALK WITH HER AGAIN OR SIGN ANYTHING IN THAT OFFICE.  PERIOD.
> I told her to wait until April 1st when the new program was launched and that it was almost certain that whatever deal they were offering now, would be available to them during the window of opportunity that was mentioned by Hilton.
> 
> There was more to this discussion, but these were the highlights.
> In case it helps others, I am attaching a copy of the form that Yasamin was working with my parents on. It includes some very creative accounting. We had spoken on the phone for more than an hour and while I intended to go over the numbers with her, I had heard enough to raise so many flags that I didn't need to know more. Here are my questions:
> 
> Is the $180,000.00 a shell game number that they are saying Max is worth?  Or is this the value of my parents' plan right now?
> The new purchase amount is $20,317 and yet the total "Financed Amount" is $21,067 -- where is the other money going?
> Why are they charging a higher maintenance fee "based on added points" in the upper right corner?
> It seems that the "Bonus DDH" (points) are a one-time addition?
> 
> Is Max now an un-deeded offering? and if so, damn the MFs are crazy.
> I have no idea what the $600/wk based upon availability chicken scratch is in the lower right.



@jayhawker  Thank you for the info. I am a HGVC owner and I recieved a call yesterday. Where they wanted to up me to HGV Max.
I was offered a larger unit than I currently have which would be more points. It was to be a deeded transaction.
My MF would go up a bit but the larger the unit the more in MF. That is normal and seen in the HOA documents.
I asked what would it cast if I just kept my property and wanted to be HGV Max. I was told there was going to be an option for that but they did not know what the costs would be. That I would be better to lock in now and get the "better" deal that they have for me. 
I was getting a lot of pressure. I told them I would wait to see what will happen. 
To Add: The MF are different for different locations. Since I could use my points at any HGVC property I opted to purchase one of the lower MF properties as my home location.


----------



## Eileen A.

Just attended a HGV Max presentation at the Polo Towers in Las Vegas.   I'm a platinum member with Diamond with 51,500 pts. 
To join HGV Max we needed to purchase 10,000 new points (normally $8 a point but we could buy for $4.43 a point).   The 
$4.43 was an introductory price for platinum owners.   Prices will go up in April. 

The $44,430 would give us access to the Hilton properties.  Was told that as Diamond members move over to Max our inventory would become limited.

I'm not sure how many Diamond owners would pay that much to crossover.  I'm thinking if someone wanted Hilton they would be better off
buying something resale and owning "both". 

Thoughts?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Eileen A. said:


> Just attended a HGV Max presentation at the Polo Towers in Las Vegas.   I'm a platinum member with Diamond with 51,500 pts.
> To join HGV Max we needed to purchase 10,000 new points (normally $8 a point but we could buy for $4.43 a point).   The
> $4.43 was an introductory price for platinum owners.   Prices will go up in April.
> 
> The $44,430 would give us access to the Hilton properties.  Was told that as Diamond members move over to Max our inventory would become limited.
> 
> I'm not sure how many Diamond owners would pay that much to crossover.  I'm thinking if someone wanted Hilton they would be better off
> buying something resale and owning "both".
> 
> Thoughts?


 
IMHO...It would be better to buy an HGVC resale for under 10k than to pay $44k. You would not be able to combine points under both programs vs. HGV Max but saving $34k would be worth it to me.


----------



## rapmarks

Your stepfather was just diagnosed with dementia. Get him in a research study for the infusion  that works on early stages.  Or your mother will be going. To timeshares alone in ten years.  They should not be going to sales updates


----------



## Mongoose

Eileen A. said:


> Just attended a HGV Max presentation at the Polo Towers in Las Vegas.   I'm a platinum member with Diamond with 51,500 pts.
> To join HGV Max we needed to purchase 10,000 new points (normally $8 a point but we could buy for $4.43 a point).   The
> $4.43 was an introductory price for platinum owners.   Prices will go up in April.
> 
> The $44,430 would give us access to the Hilton properties.  Was told that as Diamond members move over to Max our inventory would become limited.
> 
> I'm not sure how many Diamond owners would pay that much to crossover.  I'm thinking if someone wanted Hilton they would be better off
> buying something resale and owning "both".
> 
> Thoughts?


This just doesn't seem like real money anymore.  I know they are experts in helping people rationalize it, but really?!  Its kind of like them selling you an Uber membership for $40K and one free ride and still having to pay for every additional ride.


----------



## dayooper

Mongoose said:


> This just doesn't seem like real money anymore.  I know they are experts in helping people rationalize it, but really?!  Its kind of like them selling you an Uber membership for $40K and one free ride and still having to pay for every additional ride.



I just can’t fathom what timeshare companies are charging. I know there are upgrades and such, but even $30,000 is too much for me. I’ve seen over $100,000 for 1 week at some of the high level Hawaii HGVC deeds! I could be mistaken, but remember the cost for a platinum 3 bedroom penthouse at The Quin or Central on 5th was $500,000!

Spending what we spent for our 2 resale weeks seems like a lot.


----------



## NiteMaire

dayooper said:


> platinum 3 bedroom penthouse at The Quin or Central on 5th was $500,000!


That's a Vidanta Grand Luxxe and/or Estates kind of number!  Didn't realize others were anywhere near that for a week.


----------



## goaliedave

Mongoose said:


> How can it be mandatory?


Corporate marketing stay. They gave me a free 2 week stay in Cali. Mandatory also applies to EOLs and other corporate marketing gifts.


----------



## goaliedave

Eileen A. said:


> Just attended a HGV Max presentation at the Polo Towers in Las Vegas.   I'm a platinum member with Diamond with 51,500 pts.
> To join HGV Max we needed to purchase 10,000 new points (normally $8 a point but we could buy for $4.43 a point).   The
> $4.43 was an introductory price for platinum owners.   Prices will go up in April.
> 
> The $44,430 would give us access to the Hilton properties.  Was told that as Diamond members move over to Max our inventory would become limited.
> 
> I'm not sure how many Diamond owners would pay that much to crossover.  I'm thinking if someone wanted Hilton they would be better off
> buying something resale and owning "both".
> 
> Thoughts?


The usual Diamond price per point for Loyalty members is $3.78. Back in 2019 I was offered $2.78 by the Regional VP who was on site - he's since moved to Bluegreen like a lot of senior Diamond staff.


----------



## goaliedave

Eileen A. said:


> Just attended a HGV Max presentation at the Polo Towers in Las Vegas.   I'm a platinum member with Diamond with 51,500 pts.
> To join HGV Max we needed to purchase 10,000 new points (normally $8 a point but we could buy for $4.43 a point).   The
> $4.43 was an introductory price for platinum owners.   Prices will go up in April.
> 
> The $44,430 would give us access to the Hilton properties.  Was told that as Diamond members move over to Max our inventory would become limited.
> 
> I'm not sure how many Diamond owners would pay that much to crossover.  I'm thinking if someone wanted Hilton they would be better off
> buying something resale and owning "both".
> 
> Thoughts?


Also check out the 4 page internal FAQ that someone scanned and posted in the HGVC sub.


----------



## goaliedave

dayooper said:


> I just can’t fathom what timeshare companies are charging. I know there are upgrades and such, but even $30,000 is too much for me. I’ve seen over $100,000 for 1 week at some of the high level Hawaii HGVC deeds! I could be mistaken, but remember the cost for a platinum 3 bedroom penthouse at The Quin or Central on 5th was $500,000!
> 
> Spending what we spent for our 2 resale weeks seems like a lot.


I dated a salesperson once and so sometimes got informal info, including one time at an update on Las Vegas from the sales manager. I said why am i sitting with you in a room with a dozen other little round tables, when i see an 80 year old guy at an exterior private office with a great view and beautiful salesperson? He winked and said every year we take him for a nice steak dinner and then he buys another $100,000 worth.

This trip I've met dozens of owners in the hot tub who love it and upgrade regularly. One lady said there's a category above platinum she's in. Another guy said his elderly mother in law upgrades every year as the family grows as she likes giving them away.

There are tons of whales with tons of money to waste, not like us, scheming hard to get the good deals.


----------



## elysium5

Gwendyc said:


> We are very happy HGVC resale owners and recently went to a presentation. Fortunately, the sales rep was professional and not high pressure, but they did keep referring to our points as "restricted" and tried to offer us 1800 EOY points for more than twice what we just paid for our 4800 EOY points on the resale market (through one of the TUG recommended brokers last year). And yes, these 1800 points were going to have higher MF than our 4800 points, so I don't know why the Max points are going to have such high fees.


If there's a sure fire way to annoy someone in life, talk to a timeshare salesperson about resale!


----------



## Mongoose

goaliedave said:


> I dated a salesperson once and so sometimes got informal info, including one time at an update on Las Vegas from the sales manager. I said why am i sitting with you in a room with a dozen other little round tables, when i see an 80 year old guy at an exterior private office with a great view and beautiful salesperson? He winked and said every year we take him for a nice steak dinner and then he buys another $100,000 worth.
> 
> This trip I've met dozens of owners in the hot tub who love it and upgrade regularly. One lady said there's a category above platinum she's in. Another guy said his elderly mother in law upgrades every year as the family grows as she likes giving them away.
> 
> There are tons of whales with tons of money to waste, not like us, scheming hard to get the good deals.


I think you nailed it.  Some people will pay that just to be treated special and have there ego stroked. I feel for the older gentlemen.  It sounds like he does it for the attention.


----------



## ccwu

Eileen A. said:


> Just attended a HGV Max presentation at the Polo Towers in Las Vegas. I'm a platinum member with Diamond with 51,500 pts.
> To join HGV Max we needed to purchase 10,000 new points (normally $8 a point but we could buy for $4.43 a point). The
> $4.43 was an introductory price for platinum owners. Prices will go up in April.
> 
> The $44,430 would give us access to the Hilton properties. Was told that as Diamond members move over to Max our inventory would become limited.
> 
> I'm not sure how many Diamond owners would pay that much to crossover. I'm thinking if someone wanted Hilton they would be better off
> buying something resale and owning "both".
> 
> Thoughts?



You can buy resale HGV property for 11,200 points at a friction of the cost. HGV treated resale member and retail member basically the same other than not qualify for elite. Not as Dri has severe restrictions for resale members. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Mongoose said:


> I think you nailed it.  Some people will pay that just to be treated special and have there ego stroked. I feel for the older gentlemen.  It sounds like he does it for the attention.



You nailed it. People buy on emotion. Franklin Mint is another firm which preyed on an elderly whale relative of mine who was lonely. Called her regularly and she bought lots of trinkets worth a fraction of the price. When she died we were astounded as to how much she bought.


----------



## SDurbak

*THANK YOU TUGBBS FOR GIVING ME THE INFORMATION TO HELP MY PARENTS TODAY.*

I am going to cross-post in both the HGVC and Diamond sections as I felt this should be information for both places.
This is my experience today with Yasamin (spelled phonetically and probably Jasmin) on the phone today from Mystic Dunes.  I was on a conference call with her and my parents at the same time as they went through their MU.
Attached is a copy of the proposal Yasamin wanted my parents to sign.
Background:
My parents are early 70s
Have been Diamond members for ~15 years and actively use their points and vacation often across the US.  They love the program and are part of the US Collection, Trust (no deed--that I know of).
My step-father was just diagnosed with dementia this year (which Yasamin did not know at the time of visit)
My parents are concerned with their future ability to travel, whether their program can be inherited, the increasing MFs of Diamond, and what the buyout holds for them.

My mother called yesterday. She was very excited to tell me that they are potentially going to hand down a small portion of my "inheritance" soon and wanted my input regarding whether I am interested in taking over their travel program at some point in the near future? She said Hilton had bought out Diamond and that they scheduled their owner's meeting during a stay at Mystic Dunes this week. After getting the information, the felt it was best to set up a conference call so we all could talk about options Hilton had for their program in the future.

Yasamin called and set up the three-way conversation. Most of the discussion centered around what my parents and Yasamin discussed the prior day and the contract they were about to sign. The main points:

Yasamin described herself specifically as a HVC Max specialist whose job was to specifically transition people from Diamond to HVC Max.
She said that timeshares are things of the past and everything was moving to a more streamlined platform where points could be used for things like vacation rentals, nights at exclusive places like the Waldorf or Conrad, cruises, HHonors points, even "House" rentals in the same manner as VRBO.  She also used examples such as rental car purchases or gift cards.  "The whole program is changing" and "very exciting."
She was very vague, but told my mother (to her best understanding) that if she did not sign up for Max, that her (already high) MFs would *double* because they will now be part of TWO programs which would need to be maintained.
Ahh!  But her ability to fight on the behalf of my parents to get them changed over and to waive an add-on points program they had recently signed up for would fix everything.  They just needed to buy a new $30K investment in HVC Max which would negate their old Diamond contract and make the world right.  The good news?  She was able to get that price down even more.
All they had to do was sign a contract for $21,067 at 15.79% interest for 10 years -- for the low price of $356.15 per month -->>>> AND $4192 maintenance fees -->>>> for 15,000 (current annual allotment) points AND (SCORE, RIGHT!?!) 7500 bonus points...subject to availability.
Ps., she never asked if my parents wanted to pay outright rather than finance IF they wanted to move forward anyhow.
THANK GOD MY PARENTS DIDN'T SIGN THIS AND CALLED TO ASK IF I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN TAKING OVER ONE DAY....

My home family:  We have been looking at a few different programs for a period of time.  Mildly familiar with the terms of each program and knew my parents were always happy with their experiences.  Financially well established and can pay cash for any program or investment we choose to settle upon.  Previously a HHonors Diamond Elite member and familiar with Hilton and have been approached about HC before.  Open minded to talk with Yasamin and might have even bought our own deed today at Valdoro if the numbers were correct.  *THANK YOU FOR THE YEARLY MFs vs Points SPREADSHEET!!!  *

I looked at the sales sheet which I will attach below.  I was stunned.  WTH is this?  16% interest?  For what?  Yasamin, what is this for?
"Well, that is the money required to switch your parents in the the much better Max program and get them out of the incredibly high MFs they pay now."  "Your parents are getting older and you don't want them to continue to be financially burdened by such high fees, do you?"  (with my parents on the phone)

I'm sorry, but I did some research on this program, and it isn't even launched yet--and wont be until April 1st.  Is that correct?
"Oh no.  Where did you get that information?  We are selling this program right now.  The information is out there."
She then referenced a form which my parents saw but she did not send with them
I guess this form talks about grandfathering the Diamond members into Max--but that there was a cost for doing so.
This might be true as may be (as has been discussed on this forum) three tiers and the Diamond members are the lowest and get the leftover, non HGVC properties which are transitioned.
I would suspect is going to be your ticket to being able to use your points at a location in any of the three tiers, at Hilton hotel portfolio properties, and all the other bells and whistles they will throw into the program.  That has been discussed on TUG in many threads. (https://tugbbs.com/forums/goto/post?id=2719748 -- Thx @dayooper )
_*So I asked her--um, where is that info I can't find it on your site or any type of search?*_

She responded, "oh no, that is all internal.   We aren't going to go advertising that for everyone to find.  That information is just for members"
Hmm, ok, well that might be.  Ok, well, my parents are members.  It sounds like you are saying this program is official.  I read emails and letters to other members on official Hilton letterhead that said the program was not available until April 1st and that new members who buy after January 15th or existing who buy new shares after the 15th would automatically be upgraded--but that no DETAILS were available until April 1st AND that there is the possibility that the program could never materialize.
If it is official, where are the benefits listed for me to read about the program?

"Well, that's just a legal part which is needed to protect the program.  If you look, all companies do that."
Eh, you might be right, but I need to see WHAT we/they are actually being promised by enrolling today and signing the contract.  You said the program has launched.  Please show me where I can read about the specifics.
She then repeats the line about having more properties available to members as found in the letter to members similar to the thread here:  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hgv-max-diamond-integration-discussion-in-owner-update.332533/    -- Thanks @Eric B
I said, yes, but the letter (referenced above) from Hilton says NO ADDITIONAL PURCHASE REQUIRED.  Furthermore, "NO reliance should be made on any oral representation regarding the possibility of future benefits..."

She had no real answer, just spin for this letter...and generally said she was unaware of this letter and that it might simply be fake.  I chose not to discuss the marketing paperwork released on Facebook regarding the transition (found in the link above - Thanks @Nowaker )

I said, ok, well, how is Max set up?  HGVC has a deed to a home property.  I am assuming that my parents are going to be deeded to a property now, where is that going to be?
*"Oh no, MAX is going to be set up in a trust--just like your parents have."* *There will not be a deed.  You simply pay for points.*
Umm, if there is no dead, but you said it was a "Real Estate" transaction -- where is the real property?  Because a REAL ESTATE transaction is a transaction of REAL property by definition.
No real response for this and a deflection back to how max is a POINTS system just like Diamond.



At this point, I told her that I was no longer interested in anything that was not deeded or able to be sold on the open market.
She then proceeded to talk about how much my family would lose in MFs gong forward if they did not make the change.
She talked about how my parents would need a lawyer and how it would cost potentially more than $20k to get out of the contract with Diamond since they were completely paid and contractually obligated to pay the MFs.
How if they died (YESSSSS!  WITH MY PARENTS ON THE PHONE), that they would come after legal heirs --including me or even my children-- for any unpaid MFs
I almost laughed at this since BOTH my parents' and my assets are protected behind trusts.


I just thanked her for the time and proceeded to get off the call and immediately call my parents back to tell them NOT TO TALK WITH HER AGAIN OR SIGN ANYTHING IN THAT OFFICE.  PERIOD.
I told her to wait until April 1st when the new program was launched and that it was almost certain that whatever deal they were offering now, would be available to them during the window of opportunity that was mentioned by Hilton.

There was more to this discussion, but these were the highlights.
In case it helps others, I am attaching a copy of the form that Yasamin was working with my parents on. It includes some very creative accounting. We had spoken on the phone for more than an hour and while I intended to go over the numbers with her, I had heard enough to raise so many flags that I didn't need to know more. Here are my questions:

Is the $180,000.00 a shell game number that they are saying Max is worth?  Or is this the value of my parents' plan right now?
The new purchase amount is $20,317 and yet the total "Financed Amount" is $21,067 -- where is the other money going?
Why are they charging a higher maintenance fee "based on added points" in the upper right corner?
It seems that the "Bonus DDH" (points) are a one-tim

[/QUOTE]


jayhawker said:


> *THANK YOU TUGBBS FOR GIVING ME THE INFORMATION TO HELP MY PARENTS TODAY.*
> 
> I am going to cross-post in both the HGVC and Diamond sections as I felt this should be information for both places.
> This is my experience today with Yasamin (spelled phonetically and probably Jasmin) on the phone today from Mystic Dunes.  I was on a conference call with her and my parents at the same time as they went through their MU.
> Attached is a copy of the proposal Yasamin wanted my parents to sign.
> Background:
> My parents are early 70s
> Have been Diamond members for ~15 years and actively use their points and vacation often across the US.  They love the program and are part of the US Collection, Trust (no deed--that I know of).
> My step-father was just diagnosed with dementia this year (which Yasamin did not know at the time of visit)
> My parents are concerned with their future ability to travel, whether their program can be inherited, the increasing MFs of Diamond, and what the buyout holds for them.
> 
> My mother called yesterday. She was very excited to tell me that they are potentially going to hand down a small portion of my "inheritance" soon and wanted my input regarding whether I am interested in taking over their travel program at some point in the near future? She said Hilton had bought out Diamond and that they scheduled their owner's meeting during a stay at Mystic Dunes this week. After getting the information, the felt it was best to set up a conference call so we all could talk about options Hilton had for their program in the future.
> 
> Yasamin called and set up the three-way conversation. Most of the discussion centered around what my parents and Yasamin discussed the prior day and the contract they were about to sign. The main points:
> 
> Yasamin described herself specifically as a HVC Max specialist whose job was to specifically transition people from Diamond to HVC Max.
> She said that timeshares are things of the past and everything was moving to a more streamlined platform where points could be used for things like vacation rentals, nights at exclusive places like the Waldorf or Conrad, cruises, HHonors points, even "House" rentals in the same manner as VRBO.  She also used examples such as rental car purchases or gift cards.  "The whole program is changing" and "very exciting."
> She was very vague, but told my mother (to her best understanding) that if she did not sign up for Max, that her (already high) MFs would *double* because they will now be part of TWO programs which would need to be maintained.
> Ahh!  But her ability to fight on the behalf of my parents to get them changed over and to waive an add-on points program they had recently signed up for would fix everything.  They just needed to buy a new $30K investment in HVC Max which would negate their old Diamond contract and make the world right.  The good news?  She was able to get that price down even more.
> All they had to do was sign a contract for $21,067 at 15.79% interest for 10 years -- for the low price of $356.15 per month -->>>> AND $4192 maintenance fees -->>>> for 15,000 (current annual allotment) points AND (SCORE, RIGHT!?!) 7500 bonus points...subject to availability.
> Ps., she never asked if my parents wanted to pay outright rather than finance IF they wanted to move forward anyhow.
> THANK GOD MY PARENTS DIDN'T SIGN THIS AND CALLED TO ASK IF I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN TAKING OVER ONE DAY....
> 
> My home family:  We have been looking at a few different programs for a period of time.  Mildly familiar with the terms of each program and knew my parents were always happy with their experiences.  Financially well established and can pay cash for any program or investment we choose to settle upon.  Previously a HHonors Diamond Elite member and familiar with Hilton and have been approached about HC before.  Open minded to talk with Yasamin and might have even bought our own deed today at Valdoro if the numbers were correct.  *THANK YOU FOR THE YEARLY MFs vs Points SPREADSHEET!!!  *
> 
> I looked at the sales sheet which I will attach below.  I was stunned.  WTH is this?  16% interest?  For what?  Yasamin, what is this for?
> "Well, that is the money required to switch your parents in the the much better Max program and get them out of the incredibly high MFs they pay now."  "Your parents are getting older and you don't want them to continue to be financially burdened by such high fees, do you?"  (with my parents on the phone)
> 
> I'm sorry, but I did some research on this program, and it isn't even launched yet--and wont be until April 1st.  Is that correct?
> "Oh no.  Where did you get that information?  We are selling this program right now.  The information is out there."
> She then referenced a form which my parents saw but she did not send with them
> I guess this form talks about grandfathering the Diamond members into Max--but that there was a cost for doing so.
> This might be true as may be (as has been discussed on this forum) three tiers and the Diamond members are the lowest and get the leftover, non HGVC properties which are transitioned.
> I would suspect is going to be your ticket to being able to use your points at a location in any of the three tiers, at Hilton hotel portfolio properties, and all the other bells and whistles they will throw into the program.  That has been discussed on TUG in many threads. (https://tugbbs.com/forums/goto/post?id=2719748 -- Thx @dayooper )
> _*So I asked her--um, where is that info I can't find it on your site or any type of search?*_
> 
> She responded, "oh no, that is all internal.   We aren't going to go advertising that for everyone to find.  That information is just for members"
> Hmm, ok, well that might be.  Ok, well, my parents are members.  It sounds like you are saying this program is official.  I read emails and letters to other members on official Hilton letterhead that said the program was not available until April 1st and that new members who buy after January 15th or existing who buy new shares after the 15th would automatically be upgraded--but that no DETAILS were available until April 1st AND that there is the possibility that the program could never materialize.
> If it is official, where are the benefits listed for me to read about the program?
> 
> "Well, that's just a legal part which is needed to protect the program.  If you look, all companies do that."
> Eh, you might be right, but I need to see WHAT we/they are actually being promised by enrolling today and signing the contract.  You said the program has launched.  Please show me where I can read about the specifics.
> She then repeats the line about having more properties available to members as found in the letter to members similar to the thread here:  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hgv-max-diamond-integration-discussion-in-owner-update.332533/    -- Thanks @Eric B
> I said, yes, but the letter (referenced above) from Hilton says NO ADDITIONAL PURCHASE REQUIRED.  Furthermore, "NO reliance should be made on any oral representation regarding the possibility of future benefits..."
> 
> She had no real answer, just spin for this letter...and generally said she was unaware of this letter and that it might simply be fake.  I chose not to discuss the marketing paperwork released on Facebook regarding the transition (found in the link above - Thanks @Nowaker )
> 
> I said, ok, well, how is Max set up?  HGVC has a deed to a home property.  I am assuming that my parents are going to be deeded to a property now, where is that going to be?
> *"Oh no, MAX is going to be set up in a trust--just like your parents have."* *There will not be a deed.  You simply pay for points.*
> Umm, if there is no dead, but you said it was a "Real Estate" transaction -- where is the real property?  Because a REAL ESTATE transaction is a transaction of REAL property by definition.
> No real response for this and a deflection back to how max is a POINTS system just like Diamond.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point, I told her that I was no longer interested in anything that was not deeded or able to be sold on the open market.
> She then proceeded to talk about how much my family would lose in MFs gong forward if they did not make the change.
> She talked about how my parents would need a lawyer and how it would cost potentially more than $20k to get out of the contract with Diamond since they were completely paid and contractually obligated to pay the MFs.
> How if they died (YESSSSS!  WITH MY PARENTS ON THE PHONE), that they would come after legal heirs --including me or even my children-- for any unpaid MFs
> I almost laughed at this since BOTH my parents' and my assets are protected behind trusts.
> 
> 
> I just thanked her for the time and proceeded to get off the call and immediately call my parents back to tell them NOT TO TALK WITH HER AGAIN OR SIGN ANYTHING IN THAT OFFICE.  PERIOD.
> I told her to wait until April 1st when the new program was launched and that it was almost certain that whatever deal they were offering now, would be available to them during the window of opportunity that was mentioned by Hilton.
> 
> There was more to this discussion, but these were the highlights.
> In case it helps others, I am attaching a copy of the form that Yasamin was working with my parents on. It includes some very creative accounting. We had spoken on the phone for more than an hour and while I intended to go over the numbers with her, I had heard enough to raise so many flags that I didn't need to know more. Here are my questions:
> 
> Is the $180,000.00 a shell game number that they are saying Max is worth?  Or is this the value of my parents' plan right now?
> The new purchase amount is $20,317 and yet the total "FiAmount" is $21,067 -- where is the other money going?
> Why are they charging a higher maintenance fee "based on added points" in the upper right corner?
> It seems that the "Bonus DDH" (points) are a one-time addition?
> 
> Is Max now an un-deeded offering? and if so, damn the MFs are crazy.
> I have no idea what the $600/wk based upon availability chicken scratch is in the low


----------



## SDurbak

jayhawker said:


> This is my experience today with Yasamin (spelled phonetically and probably Jasmin) on the phone today from Mystic Dunes


I just read this post last night.  My husband and I are at Mystic Dunes on an “Event of a lifetime” visit, and we had our so-called account review this morning.  Our rep introduced herself as Yasaman, and I immediately recognized her from your post.  We had a bad experience - we are DRI club combo members, and what we had planned to do this year was to swap our 1 BR unit in South Africa for a 2 BR unit, and deposit that in the club combo in order to get enough points each year to be silver level. (We were given 2 years of silver status when we purchased 2 years ago.). To make this story short, I’ll just say that I left the room twice in tears before it was all over. We couldn’t use our Dream Vacation due to Covid, and they wouldn’t extend it or honor it.  Jasaman kept telling us that we had to have already switched our 1 BR for the 2 BR before January 1. (However when the boss came by he said we had to do it by April 1, along with paying $36,000 for an additional 4500 points in order to get silver status).  Jasaman wasn’t interested in talking about what WE wanted to do, she just kept showing us the “best offer from corporate” which was going to cost us either $30,000 or $40,000, depending on whether or not we gave her the names of 3 people they could call and try to sell to. I kept turning those papers face down on the table and telling her we WERE NOT interesting in spending that much money to get into the HGV Max program, but she just kept coming back to that over and over.  She also showed us in writing that we were going to be billed an additional almost $1200+ for maintenance fees in addition to the $1855 we just paid .  She claimed our maintenance fees were going to continue to go up every year with Hilton. We finally just left, and made no changes to what we already had, which they have to honor.  I am so very unhappy with this transition to HGV. It’s just about ruined our little get-away vacation.


----------



## pedro47

SDurbak said:


> I just read this post last night.  My husband and I are at Mystic Dunes on an “Event of a lifetime” visit, and we had our so-called account review this morning.  Our rep introduced herself as Yasaman, and I immediately recognized her from your post.  We had a bad experience - we are DRI club combo members, and what we had planned to do this year was to swap our 1 BR unit in South Africa for a 2 BR unit, and deposit that in the club combo in order to get enough points each year to be silver level. (We were given 2 years of silver status when we purchased 2 years ago.). To make this story short, I’ll just say that I left the room twice in tears before it was all over. We couldn’t use our Dream Vacation due to Covid, and they wouldn’t extend it or honor it.  Jasaman kept telling us that we had to have already switched our 1 BR for the 2 BR before January 1. (However when the boss came by he said we had to do it by April 1, along with paying $36,000 for an additional 4500 points in order to get silver status).  Jasaman wasn’t interested in talking about what WE wanted to do, she just kept showing us the “best offer from corporate” which was going to cost us either $30,000 or $40,000, depending on whether or not we gave her the names of 3 people they could call and try to sell to. I kept turning those papers face down on the table and telling her we WERE NOT interesting in spending that much money to get into the HGV Max program, but she just kept coming back to that over and over.  She also showed us in writing that we were going to be billed an additional almost $1200+ for maintenance fees in addition to the $1855 we just paid .  She claimed our maintenance fees were going to continue to go up every year with Hilton. We finally just left, and made no changes to what we already had, which they have to honor.  I am so very unhappy with this transition to HGV. It’s just about ruined our little get-away vacation.


I feel you made the right decision by leaving the room
Personally, I am very disappointed this is how the Hilton Sale Team is operating.


----------



## pedro47

SDurbak said:


> I just read this post last night.  My husband and I are at Mystic Dunes on an “Event of a lifetime” visit, and we had our so-called account review this morning.  Our rep introduced herself as Yasaman, and I immediately recognized her from your post.  We had a bad experience - we are DRI club combo members, and what we had planned to do this year was to swap our 1 BR unit in South Africa for a 2 BR unit, and deposit that in the club combo in order to get enough points each year to be silver level. (We were given 2 years of silver status when we purchased 2 years ago.). To make this story short, I’ll just say that I left the room twice in tears before it was all over. We couldn’t use our Dream Vacation due to Covid, and they wouldn’t extend it or honor it.  Jasaman kept telling us that we had to have already switched our 1 BR for the 2 BR before January 1. (However when the boss came by he said we had to do it by April 1, along with paying $36,000 for an additional 4500 points in order to get silver status).  Jasaman wasn’t interested in talking about what WE wanted to do, she just kept showing us the “best offer from corporate” which was going to cost us either $30,000 or $40,000, depending on whether or not we gave her the names of 3 people they could call and try to sell to. I kept turning those papers face down on the table and telling her we WERE NOT interesting in spending that much money to get into the HGV Max program, but she just kept coming back to that over and over.  She also showed us in writing that we were going to be billed an additional almost $1200+ for maintenance fees in addition to the $1855 we just paid .  She claimed our maintenance fees were going to continue to go up every year with Hilton. We finally just left, and made no changes to what we already had, which they have to honor.  I am so very unhappy with this transition to HGV. It’s just about ruined our little get-away vacation.


Some of these Hilton sale staff members are making West Gate sales team look liked angels. Folks  that is not good.


----------



## SmithOp

pedro47 said:


> Some of these Hilton sale staff members are making West Gate sales team look liked angels. Folks that is not good.


These are not HGV sales people, she was at Mystic Dunes which is a DRI property I presume because it's not HGV. These are DRI sales people that HGV inherited when they purchased DRI. HGV Sales people do not reduce owner to tears, this Jasmin needs to be fired.

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


----------



## goaliedave

Mongoose said:


> I think you nailed it.  Some people will pay that just to be treated special and have there ego stroked. I feel for the older gentlemen.  It sounds like he does it for the attention.


I look at it the same way i look at someone who spends $60,000 or $600,000 on a car, hey it's their money why do i care why or how they spend their money.


----------



## goaliedave

CalGalTraveler said:


> You nailed it. People buy on emotion. Franklin Mint is another firm which preyed on an elderly whale relative of mine who was lonely. Called her regularly and she bought lots of trinkets worth a fraction of the price. When she died we were astounded as to how much she bought.


Agree BUT it's their money and it makes them happy, you could analyze everyone's spending the same, so who's to say there is anything wrong.


----------



## goaliedave

SDurbak said:


> I just read this post last night.  My husband and I are at Mystic Dunes on an “Event of a lifetime” visit, and we had our so-called account review this morning.  Our rep introduced herself as Yasaman, and I immediately recognized her from your post.  We had a bad experience - we are DRI club combo members, and what we had planned to do this year was to swap our 1 BR unit in South Africa for a 2 BR unit, and deposit that in the club combo in order to get enough points each year to be silver level. (We were given 2 years of silver status when we purchased 2 years ago.). To make this story short, I’ll just say that I left the room twice in tears before it was all over. We couldn’t use our Dream Vacation due to Covid, and they wouldn’t extend it or honor it.  Jasaman kept telling us that we had to have already switched our 1 BR for the 2 BR before January 1. (However when the boss came by he said we had to do it by April 1, along with paying $36,000 for an additional 4500 points in order to get silver status).  Jasaman wasn’t interested in talking about what WE wanted to do, she just kept showing us the “best offer from corporate” which was going to cost us either $30,000 or $40,000, depending on whether or not we gave her the names of 3 people they could call and try to sell to. I kept turning those papers face down on the table and telling her we WERE NOT interesting in spending that much money to get into the HGV Max program, but she just kept coming back to that over and over.  She also showed us in writing that we were going to be billed an additional almost $1200+ for maintenance fees in addition to the $1855 we just paid .  She claimed our maintenance fees were going to continue to go up every year with Hilton. We finally just left, and made no changes to what we already had, which they have to honor.  I am so very unhappy with this transition to HGV. It’s just about ruined our little get-away vacation.


So sorry you went thru that. This is not uncommon with DR, they used Grant Cardone as their sales trainer and he is a hardcore 'control the conversation get the money' guru (you can google his videos).

Under former CEO Mike Flaskey, one call would have had her fired. Not sure if the C suite at HGVC cares. I also had my worst sales experiences at Mystic Dunes a few years ago. You did well to get out.


----------



## csalter2

goaliedave said:


> So sorry you went thru that. This is not uncommon with DR, they used Grant Cardone as their sales trainer and he is a hardcore 'control the conversation get the money' guru (you can google his videos).
> 
> Under former CEO Mike Flaskey, one call would have had her fired. Not sure if the C suite at HGVC cares. I also had my worst sales experiences at Mystic Dunes a few years ago. You did well to get out.



I’m sorry, but Mike Flaskey was not going to fire anyone over their sales tactics.  Do you not believe he knew of how the sales teams treated owners? All of the letters, complaints and lawsuits filed against DRI and he knew nothing of it? Sorry, by his inaction, Flaskey was just as responsible as the leader of the organization. It wasn’t much different under Cloobeck. I’ve been with DRI since2007-08 when they took over from Sunterra.  You’re gravely mistaken.


----------



## csalter2

SmithOp said:


> These are not HGV sales people, she was at Mystic Dunes which is a DRI property I presume because it's not HGV. These are DRI sales people that HGV inherited when they purchased DRI. HGV Sales people do not reduce owner to tears, this Jasmin needs to be fired.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk



Hilton salesman can be just as aggressive and lie like the best of them. I experienced that at one of their Orlando properties a few years ago.


----------



## goaliedave

csalter2 said:


> I’m sorry, but Mike Flaskey was not going to fire anyone over their sales tactics.  Do you not believe he knew of how the sales teams treated owners? All of the letters, complaints and lawsuits filed against DRI and he knew nothing of it? Sorry, by his inaction, Flaskey was just as responsible as the leader of the organization. It wasn’t much different under Cloobeck. I’ve been with DRI since2007-08 when they took over from Sunterra.  You’re gravely mistaken.


A salesperson in Hawaii told me to f off and I texted Mike and he fired him on the spot. SVP Maria Kalber was his fixer for other issues, he asked her to solve an issue i had, and i ended up with 2 free high season weeks. Those 2 solved tons of problems. There are 2 ' fixers' on DR Facebook groups who have got dozens of people out of loans thru Maria. Mike was a great CEO.


----------



## pedro47

SmithOp said:


> These are not HGV sales people, she was at Mystic Dunes which is a DRI property I presume because it's not HGV. These are DRI sales people that HGV inherited when they purchased DRI. HGV Sales people do not reduce owner to tears, this Jasmin needs to be fired.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


Sorry, to disagree but Jasmin now represent Hilton.
Mystic Dunes is now own by Hilton, is this a factual statement.

Maybe, someone from the Hilton management sales team may need to attend a sales presentation with Jasmin as a undercover buyer?


----------



## pedro47

goaliedave said:


> My lucky day today, they canceled my mandatory sales presentation, can't imagine why. I'm here on a 2 week corporate marketing promo. Was looking forward to comparing details.View attachment 47618View attachment 47618


Is it written in a sales contract that it is mandatory to attend a timeshare presentation?
I'm may ask my friend who is a Law Professor at the College of William and Mary to review my contract for clarification.


----------



## Mongoose

pedro47 said:


> Is it written in a sales contract that it is mandatory to attend a timeshare presentation?
> I'm may ask my friend who is a Law Professor at the College of William and Mary to review my contract for clarification.


Not if you are an owner.  If you buy a weekend or teaser package then yes.


----------



## pedro47

Mongoose said:


> Not if you are an owner.  If you buy a weekend or teaser package then yes.


That statement as a teaser weekend package yes, I understand. You must attend a 90 minutes presentation.
But as an owner or as an exchanger, please direct me to that clause/statement in the contract.


----------



## Mongoose

pedro47 said:


> That statement as a teaser weekend package yes, I understand. You must attend a 90 minutes presentation.
> But as an owner or as an exchanger, please direct me to that clause/statement in the contract.


How do I direct you to a clause that doesn't exist?  A corporation can't compel you to give up your time. You have to agree to it.


----------



## dayooper

pedro47 said:


> That statement as a teaser weekend package yes, I understand. You must attend a 90 minutes presentation.
> But as an owner or as an exchanger, please direct me to that clause/statement in the contract.



I don't think anybody said they had to attend just because they are an owner or exchanger. Many concierges will try and tell owners and exchangers they have to do one evedry so often (usually outside the time frame of their last), but you don't have to. 

I believe @SDurbak said they were on an Event of a Lifetime promotion so they were "required" to attend a presentation. People who are on presentations for promotional packages don't actually "have" to attend, but if they don't, they will be charged a hefty fee for their stay.


----------



## pedro47

dayooper said:


> I don't think anybody said they had to attend just because they are an owner or exchanger. Many concierges will try and tell owners and exchangers they have to do one evedry so often (usually outside the time frame of their last), but you don't have to.
> 
> I believe @SDurbak said they were on an Event of a Lifetime promotion so they were "required" to attend a presentation. People who are on presentations for promotional packages don't actually "have" to attend, but if they don't, they will be charged a hefty fee for their stay.


Agreed,  SDurbak, was attending a Event of a Lifement that required they attend a ts presentation.


----------



## WManning

jayhawker said:


> *THANK YOU TUGBBS FOR GIVING ME THE INFORMATION TO HELP MY PARENTS TODAY.*
> 
> I am going to cross-post in both the HGVC and Diamond sections as I felt this should be information for both places.
> This is my experience today with Yasamin (spelled phonetically and probably Jasmin) on the phone today from Mystic Dunes.  I was on a conference call with her and my parents at the same time as they went through their MU.
> Attached is a copy of the proposal Yasamin wanted my parents to sign.
> Background:
> My parents are early 70s
> Have been Diamond members for ~15 years and actively use their points and vacation often across the US.  They love the program and are part of the US Collection, Trust (no deed--that I know of).
> My step-father was just diagnosed with dementia this year (which Yasamin did not know at the time of visit)
> My parents are concerned with their future ability to travel, whether their program can be inherited, the increasing MFs of Diamond, and what the buyout holds for them.
> 
> My mother called yesterday. She was very excited to tell me that they are potentially going to hand down a small portion of my "inheritance" soon and wanted my input regarding whether I am interested in taking over their travel program at some point in the near future? She said Hilton had bought out Diamond and that they scheduled their owner's meeting during a stay at Mystic Dunes this week. After getting the information, the felt it was best to set up a conference call so we all could talk about options Hilton had for their program in the future.
> 
> Yasamin called and set up the three-way conversation. Most of the discussion centered around what my parents and Yasamin discussed the prior day and the contract they were about to sign. The main points:
> 
> Yasamin described herself specifically as a HVC Max specialist whose job was to specifically transition people from Diamond to HVC Max.
> She said that timeshares are things of the past and everything was moving to a more streamlined platform where points could be used for things like vacation rentals, nights at exclusive places like the Waldorf or Conrad, cruises, HHonors points, even "House" rentals in the same manner as VRBO.  She also used examples such as rental car purchases or gift cards.  "The whole program is changing" and "very exciting."
> She was very vague, but told my mother (to her best understanding) that if she did not sign up for Max, that her (already high) MFs would *double* because they will now be part of TWO programs which would need to be maintained.
> Ahh!  But her ability to fight on the behalf of my parents to get them changed over and to waive an add-on points program they had recently signed up for would fix everything.  They just needed to buy a new $30K investment in HVC Max which would negate their old Diamond contract and make the world right.  The good news?  She was able to get that price down even more.
> All they had to do was sign a contract for $21,067 at 15.79% interest for 10 years -- for the low price of $356.15 per month -->>>> AND $4192 maintenance fees -->>>> for 15,000 (current annual allotment) points AND (SCORE, RIGHT!?!) 7500 bonus points...subject to availability.
> Ps., she never asked if my parents wanted to pay outright rather than finance IF they wanted to move forward anyhow.
> THANK GOD MY PARENTS DIDN'T SIGN THIS AND CALLED TO ASK IF I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN TAKING OVER ONE DAY....
> 
> My home family:  We have been looking at a few different programs for a period of time.  Mildly familiar with the terms of each program and knew my parents were always happy with their experiences.  Financially well established and can pay cash for any program or investment we choose to settle upon.  Previously a HHonors Diamond Elite member and familiar with Hilton and have been approached about HC before.  Open minded to talk with Yasamin and might have even bought our own deed today at Valdoro if the numbers were correct.  *THANK YOU FOR THE YEARLY MFs vs Points SPREADSHEET!!!  *
> 
> I looked at the sales sheet which I will attach below.  I was stunned.  WTH is this?  16% interest?  For what?  Yasamin, what is this for?
> "Well, that is the money required to switch your parents in the the much better Max program and get them out of the incredibly high MFs they pay now."  "Your parents are getting older and you don't want them to continue to be financially burdened by such high fees, do you?"  (with my parents on the phone)
> 
> I'm sorry, but I did some research on this program, and it isn't even launched yet--and wont be until April 1st.  Is that correct?
> "Oh no.  Where did you get that information?  We are selling this program right now.  The information is out there."
> She then referenced a form which my parents saw but she did not send with them
> I guess this form talks about grandfathering the Diamond members into Max--but that there was a cost for doing so.
> This might be true as may be (as has been discussed on this forum) three tiers and the Diamond members are the lowest and get the leftover, non HGVC properties which are transitioned.
> I would suspect is going to be your ticket to being able to use your points at a location in any of the three tiers, at Hilton hotel portfolio properties, and all the other bells and whistles they will throw into the program.  That has been discussed on TUG in many threads. (https://tugbbs.com/forums/goto/post?id=2719748 -- Thx @dayooper )
> _*So I asked her--um, where is that info I can't find it on your site or any type of search?*_
> 
> She responded, "oh no, that is all internal.   We aren't going to go advertising that for everyone to find.  That information is just for members"
> Hmm, ok, well that might be.  Ok, well, my parents are members.  It sounds like you are saying this program is official.  I read emails and letters to other members on official Hilton letterhead that said the program was not available until April 1st and that new members who buy after January 15th or existing who buy new shares after the 15th would automatically be upgraded--but that no DETAILS were available until April 1st AND that there is the possibility that the program could never materialize.
> If it is official, where are the benefits listed for me to read about the program?
> 
> "Well, that's just a legal part which is needed to protect the program.  If you look, all companies do that."
> Eh, you might be right, but I need to see WHAT we/they are actually being promised by enrolling today and signing the contract.  You said the program has launched.  Please show me where I can read about the specifics.
> She then repeats the line about having more properties available to members as found in the letter to members similar to the thread here:  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hgv-max-diamond-integration-discussion-in-owner-update.332533/    -- Thanks @Eric B
> I said, yes, but the letter (referenced above) from Hilton says NO ADDITIONAL PURCHASE REQUIRED.  Furthermore, "NO reliance should be made on any oral representation regarding the possibility of future benefits..."
> 
> She had no real answer, just spin for this letter...and generally said she was unaware of this letter and that it might simply be fake.  I chose not to discuss the marketing paperwork released on Facebook regarding the transition (found in the link above - Thanks @Nowaker )
> 
> I said, ok, well, how is Max set up?  HGVC has a deed to a home property.  I am assuming that my parents are going to be deeded to a property now, where is that going to be?
> *"Oh no, MAX is going to be set up in a trust--just like your parents have."* *There will not be a deed.  You simply pay for points.*
> Umm, if there is no dead, but you said it was a "Real Estate" transaction -- where is the real property?  Because a REAL ESTATE transaction is a transaction of REAL property by definition.
> No real response for this and a deflection back to how max is a POINTS system just like Diamond.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point, I told her that I was no longer interested in anything that was not deeded or able to be sold on the open market.
> She then proceeded to talk about how much my family would lose in MFs gong forward if they did not make the change.
> She talked about how my parents would need a lawyer and how it would cost potentially more than $20k to get out of the contract with Diamond since they were completely paid and contractually obligated to pay the MFs.
> How if they died (YESSSSS!  WITH MY PARENTS ON THE PHONE), that they would come after legal heirs --including me or even my children-- for any unpaid MFs
> I almost laughed at this since BOTH my parents' and my assets are protected behind trusts.
> 
> 
> I just thanked her for the time and proceeded to get off the call and immediately call my parents back to tell them NOT TO TALK WITH HER AGAIN OR SIGN ANYTHING IN THAT OFFICE.  PERIOD.
> I told her to wait until April 1st when the new program was launched and that it was almost certain that whatever deal they were offering now, would be available to them during the window of opportunity that was mentioned by Hilton.
> 
> There was more to this discussion, but these were the highlights.
> In case it helps others, I am attaching a copy of the form that Yasamin was working with my parents on. It includes some very creative accounting. We had spoken on the phone for more than an hour and while I intended to go over the numbers with her, I had heard enough to raise so many flags that I didn't need to know more. Here are my questions:
> 
> Is the $180,000.00 a shell game number that they are saying Max is worth?  Or is this the value of my parents' plan right now?
> The new purchase amount is $20,317 and yet the total "Financed Amount" is $21,067 -- where is the other money going?
> Why are they charging a higher maintenance fee "based on added points" in the upper right corner?
> It seems that the "Bonus DDH" (points) are a one-time addition?
> 
> Is Max now an un-deeded offering? and if so, damn the MFs are crazy.
> I have no idea what the $600/wk based upon availability chicken scratch is in the lower right.


Thanks for the information but don't all presentations or updates have a hard sell attached? IMHO no free gift is worth losing 2-3 hours of vacation time to be pressured into buying. Trying to politely decline or rebutting thier false statements is like adding fuel to a fire.


----------



## Mongoose

WManning said:


> Thanks for the information but don't all presentations or updates have a hard sell attached? IMHO no free gift is worth losing 2-3 hours of vacation time to be pressured into buying. Trying to politely decline or rebutting thier false statements is like adding fuel to a fire.


I do agree with you.  Especially since a terrible experience can put a dent in your day.  I do attend once every several years just to see what they have to say, and every once in awhile they have a decent "gift".


----------



## dayooper

Mongoose said:


> I do agree with you.  Especially since a terrible experience can put a dent in your day.  I do attend once every several years just to see what they have to say, and every once in awhile they have a decent "gift".



It has to be a very nice “gift”for me to go. What is reported they are offering isn’t even close for me. I turned down $250 off of our MF’s this past summer and never regretted it.


----------



## csalter2

goaliedave said:


> A salesperson in Hawaii told me to f off and I texted Mike and he fired him on the spot. SVP Maria Kalber was his fixer for other issues, he asked her to solve an issue i had, and i ended up with 2 free high season weeks. Those 2 solved tons of problems. There are 2 ' fixers' on DR Facebook groups who have got dozens of people out of loans thru Maria. Mike was a great CEO.



There could be an occasion in which something was addressed, however if your the CEO of a major corporation and you have SYSTEMIC issues and well documented complaints about your sales teams, then you are fully aware of what’s going on in your organization.  As a CEO, you can change things and it doesn’t have to take years. So if you want to be naïve and think Flaskey was some hero to owners, then I have some swampland real estate I’d love to discuss with you.


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## ccwu

With Diamond resort international, after I rescind a few contracts, the presentations were less pressing now. They saw my many record of rescinding, the salesman asked me why. I told them that I can not put up their pressure, and did not take my ‘NO’, so I agreed to buy and rescind the next day by going to UPS sending a certified mail. Umm. That worked. Now they just do their job, 55 minutes and let me go. We are platinum member. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## goaliedave

csalter2 said:


> There could be an occasion in which something was addressed, however if your the CEO of a major corporation and you have SYSTEMIC issues and well documented complaints about your sales teams, then you are fully aware of what’s going on in your organization.  As a CEO, you can change things and it doesn’t have to take years. So if you want to be naïve and think Flaskey was some hero to owners, then I have some swampland real estate I’d love to discuss with you.


You seem angry, i can't help you with that. You'll learn eventually that for every person that has a bad experience with a person or corporation, there are 10 having a good experience. Certainly true for timeshares. Mike is a legend in the industry - he was just the keynote speaker at ARDA - and has personally helped many owners. Sorry you weren't one of them.


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## goaliedave

ccwu said:


> With Diamond resort international, after I rescind a few contracts, the presentations were less pressing now. They saw my many record of rescinding, the salesman asked me why. I told them that I can not put up their pressure, and did not take my ‘NO’, so I agreed to buy and rescind the next day by going to UPS sending a certified mail. Umm. That worked. Now they just do their job, 55 minutes and let me go. We are platinum member.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol great one!


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## csalter2

goaliedave said:


> You seem angry, i can't help you with that. You'll learn eventually that for every person that has a bad experience with a person or corporation, there are 10 having a good experience. Certainly true for timeshares. Mike is a legend in the industry - he was just the keynote speaker at ARDA - and has personally helped many owners. Sorry you weren't one of them.



Far from angry. I have actually been a happy DR owner. I’ve just been with DR since they took over Sunterra in 2007-08 when Stephen Cloobeck was involved. The salespeople have been misleading/misinforming people from day one and it has continued to today. These are just facts. If you don’t believe that the CEO is not aware of the worldwide sales tactics, then you must have your head in the sand. I am an extremely informed owner. I have actually started a website with over 15,000 DR owners on Facebook. So it’s not about anger, it’s about facts. An isolated incident here or there that is resolved is not the same as a systemic sales system that uses deception to sell. Flaskey knew what was going on. If you don’t believe so, then you’re extremely naïve.

And remember, ARDA looks after the interests of the developers not the interests of the owners so sharing the fact that he was a keynote speaker for them is irrelevant. That has nothing to do with his lack of action with his organization’s sales practices.


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## goaliedave

Your comments about the CEO spelled anger to me, DR is no different than every other Corp in the world with 20% having bad experiences. Not many though where the CEO personally helps! Hundreds of thousands of happy DR members, remember; don't let the hundreds that post displeasure online distract you. Or go view banking or car company forums if you really want to see the angry 20%!


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## csalter2

goaliedave said:


> Your comments about the CEO spelled anger to me, DR is no different than every other Corp in the world with 20% having bad experiences. Not many though where the CEO personally helps! Hundreds of thousands of happy DR members, remember; don't let the hundreds that post displeasure online distract you. Or go view banking or car company forums if you really want to see the angry 20%!





goaliedave said:


> Your comments about the CEO spelled anger to me, DR is no different than every other Corp in the world with 20% having bad experiences. Not many though where the CEO personally helps! Hundreds of thousands of happy DR members, remember; don't let the hundreds that post displeasure online distract you. Or go view banking or car company forums if you really want to see the angry 20%!



I want you to know that I don’t believe that number of unhappy owners is 20%. Also, unhappy is very vague. Unhappy about what? I can tell that unhappiness about the high pressure sales experiences including updates and having to go through VIP services to get your room key so they can hound and lie to you to go to a sales update is certainly well over 20% on that topic alone. Unhappiness with maintenance fees increases is another sore point when compounded with a reduction of benefits and services. The fact that DR does not update their units on a regular basis makes owners very unhappy. I can name several resorts These are facts and not opinions.

As I’ve stated, I’m actually overall a happy owner. However, I’m not the average owner. I’ve interacted with so many owners over the years to have a sample size to know that your 20% number is very low depending on how you’re looking at it.

I can tell you that when I first bought into Marriott I had nowhere near the pressure that DR put on me to buy. Marriott was selling weeks and they were allowing the product to sell itself. Now that Marriott sells points, they are moving closer to DR practices. However, Marriott maintains its resorts extremely well. Their benefits have not been reduced like DR has done.  It must be noted that Marriott and DR fees are comparable so you get less for your money with DR.

The bottom line is Mike Flaskey is aware of his sales division’s practices. There’s no way with letters, lawsuits, attorney generals from varying states ordering exit plans and customer complaints that he is not aware and done nothing to put an end to the deceptive and misleading SYSTEMIC sales practices.


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## goaliedave

TLDR! Maybe overdue on a vacation? Might i suggest Texas next month, a nice golf tournament with celebrities and rocking concert series modeled on the industry leading Diamond Resorts EOLs? You could discuss directly with Mike. https://clubcorpclassic.com/


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## JSJOKIE

jayhawker said:


> *THANK YOU TUGBBS FOR GIVING ME THE INFORMATION TO HELP MY PARENTS TODAY.*
> 
> I am going to cross-post in both the HGVC and Diamond sections as I felt this should be information for both places.
> This is my experience today with Yasamin (spelled phonetically and probably Jasmin) on the phone today from Mystic Dunes.  I was on a conference call with her and my parents at the same time as they went through their MU.
> Attached is a copy of the proposal Yasamin wanted my parents to sign.
> Background:
> My parents are early 70s
> Have been Diamond members for ~15 years and actively use their points and vacation often across the US.  They love the program and are part of the US Collection, Trust (no deed--that I know of).
> My step-father was just diagnosed with dementia this year (which Yasamin did not know at the time of visit)
> My parents are concerned with their future ability to travel, whether their program can be inherited, the increasing MFs of Diamond, and what the buyout holds for them.
> 
> My mother called yesterday. She was very excited to tell me that they are potentially going to hand down a small portion of my "inheritance" soon and wanted my input regarding whether I am interested in taking over their travel program at some point in the near future? She said Hilton had bought out Diamond and that they scheduled their owner's meeting during a stay at Mystic Dunes this week. After getting the information, the felt it was best to set up a conference call so we all could talk about options Hilton had for their program in the future.
> 
> Yasamin called and set up the three-way conversation. Most of the discussion centered around what my parents and Yasamin discussed the prior day and the contract they were about to sign. The main points:
> 
> Yasamin described herself specifically as a HVC Max specialist whose job was to specifically transition people from Diamond to HVC Max.
> She said that timeshares are things of the past and everything was moving to a more streamlined platform where points could be used for things like vacation rentals, nights at exclusive places like the Waldorf or Conrad, cruises, HHonors points, even "House" rentals in the same manner as VRBO.  She also used examples such as rental car purchases or gift cards.  "The whole program is changing" and "very exciting."
> She was very vague, but told my mother (to her best understanding) that if she did not sign up for Max, that her (already high) MFs would *double* because they will now be part of TWO programs which would need to be maintained.
> Ahh!  But her ability to fight on the behalf of my parents to get them changed over and to waive an add-on points program they had recently signed up for would fix everything.  They just needed to buy a new $30K investment in HVC Max which would negate their old Diamond contract and make the world right.  The good news?  She was able to get that price down even more.
> All they had to do was sign a contract for $21,067 at 15.79% interest for 10 years -- for the low price of $356.15 per month -->>>> AND $4192 maintenance fees -->>>> for 15,000 (current annual allotment) points AND (SCORE, RIGHT!?!) 7500 bonus points...subject to availability.
> Ps., she never asked if my parents wanted to pay outright rather than finance IF they wanted to move forward anyhow.
> THANK GOD MY PARENTS DIDN'T SIGN THIS AND CALLED TO ASK IF I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN TAKING OVER ONE DAY....
> 
> My home family:  We have been looking at a few different programs for a period of time.  Mildly familiar with the terms of each program and knew my parents were always happy with their experiences.  Financially well established and can pay cash for any program or investment we choose to settle upon.  Previously a HHonors Diamond Elite member and familiar with Hilton and have been approached about HC before.  Open minded to talk with Yasamin and might have even bought our own deed today at Valdoro if the numbers were correct.  *THANK YOU FOR THE YEARLY MFs vs Points SPREADSHEET!!!  *
> 
> I looked at the sales sheet which I will attach below.  I was stunned.  WTH is this?  16% interest?  For what?  Yasamin, what is this for?
> "Well, that is the money required to switch your parents in the the much better Max program and get them out of the incredibly high MFs they pay now."  "Your parents are getting older and you don't want them to continue to be financially burdened by such high fees, do you?"  (with my parents on the phone)
> 
> I'm sorry, but I did some research on this program, and it isn't even launched yet--and wont be until April 1st.  Is that correct?
> "Oh no.  Where did you get that information?  We are selling this program right now.  The information is out there."
> She then referenced a form which my parents saw but she did not send with them
> I guess this form talks about grandfathering the Diamond members into Max--but that there was a cost for doing so.
> This might be true as may be (as has been discussed on this forum) three tiers and the Diamond members are the lowest and get the leftover, non HGVC properties which are transitioned.
> I would suspect is going to be your ticket to being able to use your points at a location in any of the three tiers, at Hilton hotel portfolio properties, and all the other bells and whistles they will throw into the program.  That has been discussed on TUG in many threads. (https://tugbbs.com/forums/goto/post?id=2719748 -- Thx @dayooper )
> _*So I asked her--um, where is that info I can't find it on your site or any type of search?*_
> 
> She responded, "oh no, that is all internal.   We aren't going to go advertising that for everyone to find.  That information is just for members"
> Hmm, ok, well that might be.  Ok, well, my parents are members.  It sounds like you are saying this program is official.  I read emails and letters to other members on official Hilton letterhead that said the program was not available until April 1st and that new members who buy after January 15th or existing who buy new shares after the 15th would automatically be upgraded--but that no DETAILS were available until April 1st AND that there is the possibility that the program could never materialize.
> If it is official, where are the benefits listed for me to read about the program?
> 
> "Well, that's just a legal part which is needed to protect the program.  If you look, all companies do that."
> Eh, you might be right, but I need to see WHAT we/they are actually being promised by enrolling today and signing the contract.  You said the program has launched.  Please show me where I can read about the specifics.
> She then repeats the line about having more properties available to members as found in the letter to members similar to the thread here:  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hgv-max-diamond-integration-discussion-in-owner-update.332533/    -- Thanks @Eric B
> I said, yes, but the letter (referenced above) from Hilton says NO ADDITIONAL PURCHASE REQUIRED.  Furthermore, "NO reliance should be made on any oral representation regarding the possibility of future benefits..."
> 
> She had no real answer, just spin for this letter...and generally said she was unaware of this letter and that it might simply be fake.  I chose not to discuss the marketing paperwork released on Facebook regarding the transition (found in the link above - Thanks @Nowaker )
> 
> I said, ok, well, how is Max set up?  HGVC has a deed to a home property.  I am assuming that my parents are going to be deeded to a property now, where is that going to be?
> *"Oh no, MAX is going to be set up in a trust--just like your parents have."* *There will not be a deed.  You simply pay for points.*
> Umm, if there is no dead, but you said it was a "Real Estate" transaction -- where is the real property?  Because a REAL ESTATE transaction is a transaction of REAL property by definition.
> No real response for this and a deflection back to how max is a POINTS system just like Diamond.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point, I told her that I was no longer interested in anything that was not deeded or able to be sold on the open market.
> She then proceeded to talk about how much my family would lose in MFs gong forward if they did not make the change.
> She talked about how my parents would need a lawyer and how it would cost potentially more than $20k to get out of the contract with Diamond since they were completely paid and contractually obligated to pay the MFs.
> How if they died (YESSSSS!  WITH MY PARENTS ON THE PHONE), that they would come after legal heirs --including me or even my children-- for any unpaid MFs
> I almost laughed at this since BOTH my parents' and my assets are protected behind trusts.
> 
> 
> I just thanked her for the time and proceeded to get off the call and immediately call my parents back to tell them NOT TO TALK WITH HER AGAIN OR SIGN ANYTHING IN THAT OFFICE.  PERIOD.
> I told her to wait until April 1st when the new program was launched and that it was almost certain that whatever deal they were offering now, would be available to them during the window of opportunity that was mentioned by Hilton.
> 
> There was more to this discussion, but these were the highlights.
> In case it helps others, I am attaching a copy of the form that Yasamin was working with my parents on. It includes some very creative accounting. We had spoken on the phone for more than an hour and while I intended to go over the numbers with her, I had heard enough to raise so many flags that I didn't need to know more. Here are my questions:
> 
> Is the $180,000.00 a shell game number that they are saying Max is worth?  Or is this the value of my parents' plan right now?
> The new purchase amount is $20,317 and yet the total "Financed Amount" is $21,067 -- where is the other money going?
> Why are they charging a higher maintenance fee "based on added points" in the upper right corner?
> It seems that the "Bonus DDH" (points) are a one-time addition?
> 
> Is Max now an un-deeded offering? and if so, damn the MFs are crazy.
> I have no idea what the $600/wk based upon availability chicken scratch is in the lower right.





jayhawker said:


> *THANK YOU TUGBBS FOR GIVING ME THE INFORMATION TO HELP MY PARENTS TODAY.*
> 
> I am going to cross-post in both the HGVC and Diamond sections as I felt this should be information for both places.
> This is my experience today with Yasamin (spelled phonetically and probably Jasmin) on the phone today from Mystic Dunes.  I was on a conference call with her and my parents at the same time as they went through their MU.
> Attached is a copy of the proposal Yasamin wanted my parents to sign.
> Background:
> My parents are early 70s
> Have been Diamond members for ~15 years and actively use their points and vacation often across the US.  They love the program and are part of the US Collection, Trust (no deed--that I know of).
> My step-father was just diagnosed with dementia this year (which Yasamin did not know at the time of visit)
> My parents are concerned with their future ability to travel, whether their program can be inherited, the increasing MFs of Diamond, and what the buyout holds for them.
> 
> My mother called yesterday. She was very excited to tell me that they are potentially going to hand down a small portion of my "inheritance" soon and wanted my input regarding whether I am interested in taking over their travel program at some point in the near future? She said Hilton had bought out Diamond and that they scheduled their owner's meeting during a stay at Mystic Dunes this week. After getting the information, the felt it was best to set up a conference call so we all could talk about options Hilton had for their program in the future.
> 
> Yasamin called and set up the three-way conversation. Most of the discussion centered around what my parents and Yasamin discussed the prior day and the contract they were about to sign. The main points:
> 
> Yasamin described herself specifically as a HVC Max specialist whose job was to specifically transition people from Diamond to HVC Max.
> She said that timeshares are things of the past and everything was moving to a more streamlined platform where points could be used for things like vacation rentals, nights at exclusive places like the Waldorf or Conrad, cruises, HHonors points, even "House" rentals in the same manner as VRBO.  She also used examples such as rental car purchases or gift cards.  "The whole program is changing" and "very exciting."
> She was very vague, but told my mother (to her best understanding) that if she did not sign up for Max, that her (already high) MFs would *double* because they will now be part of TWO programs which would need to be maintained.
> Ahh!  But her ability to fight on the behalf of my parents to get them changed over and to waive an add-on points program they had recently signed up for would fix everything.  They just needed to buy a new $30K investment in HVC Max which would negate their old Diamond contract and make the world right.  The good news?  She was able to get that price down even more.
> All they had to do was sign a contract for $21,067 at 15.79% interest for 10 years -- for the low price of $356.15 per month -->>>> AND $4192 maintenance fees -->>>> for 15,000 (current annual allotment) points AND (SCORE, RIGHT!?!) 7500 bonus points...subject to availability.
> Ps., she never asked if my parents wanted to pay outright rather than finance IF they wanted to move forward anyhow.
> THANK GOD MY PARENTS DIDN'T SIGN THIS AND CALLED TO ASK IF I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN TAKING OVER ONE DAY....
> 
> My home family:  We have been looking at a few different programs for a period of time.  Mildly familiar with the terms of each program and knew my parents were always happy with their experiences.  Financially well established and can pay cash for any program or investment we choose to settle upon.  Previously a HHonors Diamond Elite member and familiar with Hilton and have been approached about HC before.  Open minded to talk with Yasamin and might have even bought our own deed today at Valdoro if the numbers were correct.  *THANK YOU FOR THE YEARLY MFs vs Points SPREADSHEET!!!  *
> 
> I looked at the sales sheet which I will attach below.  I was stunned.  WTH is this?  16% interest?  For what?  Yasamin, what is this for?
> "Well, that is the money required to switch your parents in the the much better Max program and get them out of the incredibly high MFs they pay now."  "Your parents are getting older and you don't want them to continue to be financially burdened by such high fees, do you?"  (with my parents on the phone)
> 
> I'm sorry, but I did some research on this program, and it isn't even launched yet--and wont be until April 1st.  Is that correct?
> "Oh no.  Where did you get that information?  We are selling this program right now.  The information is out there."
> She then referenced a form which my parents saw but she did not send with them
> I guess this form talks about grandfathering the Diamond members into Max--but that there was a cost for doing so.
> This might be true as may be (as has been discussed on this forum) three tiers and the Diamond members are the lowest and get the leftover, non HGVC properties which are transitioned.
> I would suspect is going to be your ticket to being able to use your points at a location in any of the three tiers, at Hilton hotel portfolio properties, and all the other bells and whistles they will throw into the program.  That has been discussed on TUG in many threads. (https://tugbbs.com/forums/goto/post?id=2719748 -- Thx @dayooper )
> _*So I asked her--um, where is that info I can't find it on your site or any type of search?*_
> 
> She responded, "oh no, that is all internal.   We aren't going to go advertising that for everyone to find.  That information is just for members"
> Hmm, ok, well that might be.  Ok, well, my parents are members.  It sounds like you are saying this program is official.  I read emails and letters to other members on official Hilton letterhead that said the program was not available until April 1st and that new members who buy after January 15th or existing who buy new shares after the 15th would automatically be upgraded--but that no DETAILS were available until April 1st AND that there is the possibility that the program could never materialize.
> If it is official, where are the benefits listed for me to read about the program?
> 
> "Well, that's just a legal part which is needed to protect the program.  If you look, all companies do that."
> Eh, you might be right, but I need to see WHAT we/they are actually being promised by enrolling today and signing the contract.  You said the program has launched.  Please show me where I can read about the specifics.
> She then repeats the line about having more properties available to members as found in the letter to members similar to the thread here:  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hgv-max-diamond-integration-discussion-in-owner-update.332533/    -- Thanks @Eric B
> I said, yes, but the letter (referenced above) from Hilton says NO ADDITIONAL PURCHASE REQUIRED.  Furthermore, "NO reliance should be made on any oral representation regarding the possibility of future benefits..."
> 
> She had no real answer, just spin for this letter...and generally said she was unaware of this letter and that it might simply be fake.  I chose not to discuss the marketing paperwork released on Facebook regarding the transition (found in the link above - Thanks @Nowaker )
> 
> I said, ok, well, how is Max set up?  HGVC has a deed to a home property.  I am assuming that my parents are going to be deeded to a property now, where is that going to be?
> *"Oh no, MAX is going to be set up in a trust--just like your parents have."* *There will not be a deed.  You simply pay for points.*
> Umm, if there is no dead, but you said it was a "Real Estate" transaction -- where is the real property?  Because a REAL ESTATE transaction is a transaction of REAL property by definition.
> No real response for this and a deflection back to how max is a POINTS system just like Diamond.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point, I told her that I was no longer interested in anything that was not deeded or able to be sold on the open market.
> She then proceeded to talk about how much my family would lose in MFs gong forward if they did not make the change.
> She talked about how my parents would need a lawyer and how it would cost potentially more than $20k to get out of the contract with Diamond since they were completely paid and contractually obligated to pay the MFs.
> How if they died (YESSSSS!  WITH MY PARENTS ON THE PHONE), that they would come after legal heirs --including me or even my children-- for any unpaid MFs
> I almost laughed at this since BOTH my parents' and my assets are protected behind trusts.
> 
> 
> I just thanked her for the time and proceeded to get off the call and immediately call my parents back to tell them NOT TO TALK WITH HER AGAIN OR SIGN ANYTHING IN THAT OFFICE.  PERIOD.
> I told her to wait until April 1st when the new program was launched and that it was almost certain that whatever deal they were offering now, would be available to them during the window of opportunity that was mentioned by Hilton.
> 
> There was more to this discussion, but these were the highlights.
> In case it helps others, I am attaching a copy of the form that Yasamin was working with my parents on. It includes some very creative accounting. We had spoken on the phone for more than an hour and while I intended to go over the numbers with her, I had heard enough to raise so many flags that I didn't need to know more. Here are my questions:
> 
> Is the $180,000.00 a shell game number that they are saying Max is worth?  Or is this the value of my parents' plan right now?
> The new purchase amount is $20,317 and yet the total "Financed Amount" is $21,067 -- where is the other money going?
> Why are they charging a higher maintenance fee "based on added points" in the upper right corner?
> It seems that the "Bonus DDH" (points) are a one-time addition?
> 
> Is Max now an un-deeded offering? and if so, damn the MFs are crazy.
> I have no idea what the $600/wk based upon availability chicken scratch is in the lower right.


could you please direct me to the document you referenced: THE YEARLY MFs vs Points SPREADSHEET. Thanks you!


----------



## Kozman

magmue said:


> Either blatant ignorance or a bold faced (and cruelly applied) lie. With or without a trust, heirs can decline timeshares without penalty or obligation.



List Diamond as their heir and tell them they have to take it.  Like you said heirs are under no obligation to assume the ownership of the timeshare (points).


----------

