# 2015 Program Changes [merged]



## Whoozr

Just received an interesting email, seems like Wyndham is trying to put a limit on the number of reservations a mega renters can reserve at a location on a given day. 

Their discussion resulted in two changes to the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Program Rules and Guidelines: 

In an effort to make it easier for owners to manage and use their points, effective August 4, 2015, reservations that are cancelled in accordance with the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Cancellation Policy will now have points returned as Regular Use Year Points and will no longer be referred to as Cancelled Reservation Points. Existing Cancelled Reservation Points in your account will be changed to Regular Use Year Points with the same expiration date.

What does this mean for you? Previously, Cancelled Reservation Points could not be used for all Club benefits. With this change, should you need to cancel your reservation per the cancellation policy, 15 days or more before your arrival date, your points will be returned as Regular Use Year Points and can be used for more Club benefits than before.

In an effort to increase availability, there will be a Nightly Unit Limit on the number of units an owner can book at a single resort of 10 units, or 20 percent of the inventory at that resort affiliated with CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, whichever is less. Going forward, the Nightly Unit Limit should increase availability for more owners at the most sought after resorts. The Nightly Unit Limit applies to new Standard and Express reservations booked after October 1, 2015 (ARP reservations are not limited). This will not impact existing reservations made prior to October 1, unless the reservation is cancelled and, after October 1, a new reservation is confirmed.

What does this mean for you? The change should increase usage by more owners at the most sought after resorts. ;


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## antjmar

*limit on units for mega renters...*

Just got an e-mail with some changes...
This will make thing harder for some mega renters whom dont own at a particulr resort. (limit not in effect with ARP).

"...In an effort to increase availability, there will be a Nightly Unit Limit on the number of units *an owner can book at a single resort of 10 units, or 20 percent of the inventory at that resort affiliated with CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, whichever is less*. Going forward, the Nightly Unit Limit should increase availability for more owners at the most sought after resorts. The Nightly Unit Limit applies to new Standard and Express reservations booked after October 1, 2015 (ARP reservations are not limited). This will not impact existing reservations made prior to October 1, unless the reservation is cancelled and, after October 1, a new reservation is confirmed.

What does this mean for you? The change should increase usage by more owners at the most sought after resorts.


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## Ty1on

Whoozr said:


> Just received an interesting email, seems like Wyndham is trying to put a limit on the number of reservations a mega renters can reserve at a location on a given day.
> 
> Their discussion resulted in two changes to the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Program Rules and Guidelines:
> 
> In an effort to make it easier for owners to manage and use their points, effective August 4, 2015, reservations that are cancelled in accordance with the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Cancellation Policy will now have points returned as Regular Use Year Points and will no longer be referred to as Cancelled Reservation Points. Existing Cancelled Reservation Points in your account will be changed to Regular Use Year Points with the same expiration date.
> 
> What does this mean for you? Previously, Cancelled Reservation Points could not be used for all Club benefits. With this change, should you need to cancel your reservation per the cancellation policy, 15 days or more before your arrival date, your points will be returned as Regular Use Year Points and can be used for more Club benefits than before.
> 
> In an effort to increase availability, there will be a Nightly Unit Limit on the number of units an owner can book at a single resort of 10 units, or 20 percent of the inventory at that resort affiliated with CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, whichever is less. Going forward, the Nightly Unit Limit should increase availability for more owners at the most sought after resorts. The Nightly Unit Limit applies to new Standard and Express reservations booked after October 1, 2015 (ARP reservations are not limited). This will not impact existing reservations made prior to October 1, unless the reservation is cancelled and, after October 1, a new reservation is confirmed.
> 
> What does this mean for you? The change should increase usage by more owners at the most sought after resorts. ;



I think the biggest change here for VIPs is that they would be able to credit pool cancelled points now.

I'm not sure how many megarenters are taking 10 superprime intervals at the same location and week.  It is obviously happening, if they came up with the rule.


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## am1

Not right at all.  Points should be points.  I do not see how Wyndham can manage this when they have so many other issues that go unresolved.


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## Ty1on

am1 said:


> Not right at all.  Points should be points.  I do not see how Wyndham can manage this when they have so many other issues that go unresolved.



This does vindicate the renter strategy of seeking to own prime fixed weeks at desirable locations.

The cancelled points change can't possibly be a bad thing.


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## am1

Can points be constantly credit pooled?


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## mistalong

*My Point exactly*

Wrong post.


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## scootr5

am1 said:


> Can points be constantly credit pooled?



IIRC, VIPs can credit pool in the actual use year (they don't have to do it before it starts).

Bluegreen recently enacted something similar to this in an effort to curb the large renters at Big Cedar Wilderness Club, limiting people to 10 outstanding reservations per regional area.


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## scootr5

mistalong said:


> I've heard of a penny a point, but a dollar a point?!!!  Ri-darn-diculous!
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/371390865394



A dollar a point means the auction would have closed at $154,000. $1565 is essentially a penny a point.


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## Ty1on

scootr5 said:


> IIRC, VIPs can credit pool in the actual use year (they don't have to do it before it starts).
> 
> Bluegreen recently enacted something similar to this in an effort to curb the large renters at Big Cedar Wilderness Club, limiting people to 10 outstanding reservations per regional area.



I think they can credit pool 6 or 9 months in if they are Gold or Platinum, respectively.  No cookies for Silver.


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## am1

scootr5 said:


> IIRC, VIPs can credit pool in the actual use year (they don't have to do it before it starts).
> 
> Bluegreen recently enacted something similar to this in an effort to curb the large renters at Big Cedar Wilderness Club, limiting people to 10 outstanding reservations per regional area.



Right so will a reservation that is cancelled using credit pool points go back to regular points which can be credit pooled again?


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## scootr5

am1 said:


> Right so will a reservation that is cancelled using credit pool points go back to regular points which can be credit pooled again?



That seems to be what they are saying. I'm guessing they didn't think that loophole through very clearly (or there will be some sort of clarifying fine print).


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## Ty1on

scootr5 said:


> That seems to be what they are saying. I'm guessing they didn't think that loophole through very clearly (or there will be some sort of clarifying fine print).



It will be important to find out whether cancelled points pick up at current use year or original use year.  If original use year, then it will be important to find out whether they expire them on you, or allow you to re-pool with an expiration date 3 years from the original use year.  Or maybe they will assign them to original use year and expire them?


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## mistalong

*Hurting Magarenters?*

Most megarenters are well educated, therefore most have multiple accounts so is it really going to hurt them?


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## bnoble

Maybe not---each of those accounts would have to be qualified as Plat VIP separately.  If all points are in a single account, you only have to qualify once, and can add resale points as needed.

It won't stop the point managers, though. They are definitely working out of separate accounts.

The no-more-cancel-points change can benefit regular owners as well---cancellations early in the UY could still be pooled if you cancel before the end of the prior UY. In fact, I might try it with some pool credits that are due to expire next year that I may or may not have a use for.


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## Ty1on

bnoble said:


> Maybe not---each of those accounts would have to be qualified as Plat VIP separately.  If all points are in a single account, you only have to qualify once, and can add resale points as needed.
> 
> It won't stop the point managers, though. They are definitely working out of separate accounts.
> 
> The no-more-cancel-points change can benefit regular owners as well---cancellations early in the UY could still be pooled if you cancel before the end of the prior UY. In fact, I might try it with some pool credits that are due to expire next year that I may or may not have a use for.



This could put a hitch in the manager's giddyup, though, if, say Ron has reserved 10 rooms for Mardi Gras and the manager wants to reserve another 5 against Ron's account.....


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## bnoble

True.  I assume that most accounts-under-management are not also landlords themselves.  I could be wrong about that.

I'm struggling to find the legal basis for this restriction, though, other than "Wyndham, in its sole discretion can change the program at any time."  Anyone else have a theory?


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## csxjohn

My post was already stated, missed it.


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## geekette

Sounds like it could be a drag when attempting to plan a family reunion.  Thanks for the tip.


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## ronparise

mistalong said:


> I've heard of a penny a point, but a dollar a point?!!!  Ri-darn-diculous!
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/371390865394




Thats almost exactly a penny a point


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## Ty1on

ronparise said:


> Thats almost exactly a penny a point



Poor guy, this is the third time he's been slapped :rofl:


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## csxjohn

Ty1on said:


> Poor guy, this is the third time he's been slapped :rofl:



I deleted mine, it would have been four.


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## ronparise

sorry dup post


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## ronparise

Ty1on said:


> This could put a hitch in the manager's giddyup, though, if, say Ron has reserved 10 rooms for Mardi Gras and the manager wants to reserve another 5 against Ron's account.....



a quick read tells me I wont be impacted.. I own  La Belle Maison and CWA points that I ARP for Mardi Gras, 

Mardi Gras except for a few Avenue Plaza units gets sold out in the ARP window. Ive never been able to get close to 10 units at 10 months. and my managers dont get to use my La Belle points. 

Where this could hurt is when it comes time to cancel and rebook A limit of ten per resort per account could cut my income a bit.


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## vacationhopeful

Okay.... did I miss the "YOUR reservation is cancelled window so many days before checkin because you have 10 (or 10%) of the rooms rented?"

 OR is it "you can't book a unit in this window as you already have 10 units (or 10%) of the CWP inventory booked"? 

Is it FRI and SAT of the same weekend ... really 2 units of the 10 or are they 1 unit of the 10 for FRI & 1 unit of 10 for SAT?

This could get ugly. Esp if you have the reservation in a GUEST's name....


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## vacationhopeful

So CWA inventory does NOT count? Only CWP inventory?

How will we know of if 10% or 10 units ... Royal Vista has only 93 units... so 10% is 9 units. But Santa Barbara as 90 units ... but many PRIME season weeks are STILL fixed weeks ... I have 4 fixed weeks for just ONE PRIME winter week ... and one of those is a converted Fixed Week to CWP points.

This might work at Bonnet Creek for Christmas/New Years .. but they have to get the Megarenters with 10 Member Numbers all being billed to the same address, bank account, phone number .... Tax Payer ID Number .... for it to be really effective.


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## am1

vacationhopeful said:


> So CWA inventory does NOT count? Only CWP inventory?



Why does CWP get a pass?  At 10 months we are both looking at the same inventory.  

I already have one angle to play this that will not achieve the outcome wyndham wants.


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## CruiseGuy

Make sure you're reading it correctly: Club Wyndham Access is part of Club Wyndham Plus.  Turn to page 367 of the directory.

The correct terminology for points at a specific resort is Club Wyndham Select, which is also part of Club Wyndham Plus.

Club Wyndham Plus includes Club Wyndham Access, Club Wyndham Select, Presidential Reserve, and the Margaritaville programs.


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## 55plus

I'm not a mega renter, but I do rent to others. I think the new policy is good for most owners. It will give more owns access to high demand locations and timeframes which is a good thing for everyone.

Disclaimer: My position may change after I read the new policy (what I read on this thread I like so far).


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## CruiseGuy

I haven't received this email from Wyndham.  Are there others who haven't received it yet?


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## Ty1on

CruiseGuy said:


> Make sure you're reading it correctly: Club Wyndham Access is part of Club Wyndham Plus.  Turn to page 367 of the directory.
> 
> The correct terminology for points at a specific resort is Club Wyndham Select, which is also part of Club Wyndham Plus.
> 
> Club Wyndham Plus includes Club Wyndham Access, Club Wyndham Select, Presidential Reserve, and the Margaritaville programs.



You're on a one-man crusade to get us calling Select the right name :hysterical:

But ACTUALLY, your point is perfect.  Since it applies to CWP, then it applies to Access, Select, PR, and MV.


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## 55plus

CruiseGuy said:


> I haven't received this email from Wyndham.  Are there others who haven't received it yet?



I haven't receive the email as of yet...


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## CruiseGuy

Ty1on said:


> You're on a one-man crusade to get us calling Select the right name :hysterical:
> 
> But ACTUALLY, your point is perfect.  Since it applies to CWP, then it applies to Access, Select, PR, and MV.



LOL.  Not really, but I think a lot of folks here use CWP when they mean CWS (Select). And I think that letter is confusing a lot of folks who aren't reading it carefully and closely.  (and I won't claim to be the most knowledgeable person here, but I really try to read and understand what's going on with Wyndham so that I can make the most of my points)


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## Ty1on

CruiseGuy said:


> LOL.  Not really, but I think a lot of folks here use CWP when they mean CWS (Select). And I think that letter is confusing a lot of folks who aren't reading it carefully and closely.  (and I won't claim to be the most knowledgeable person here, but I really try to read and understand what's going on with Wyndham so that I can make the most of my points)



You are right on both counts.  People, including me, CWP when we mean CWS, and it makes a significant difference when interpreting this rule change.


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## Cheryl20772

My email copy arrived at 12:04 this afternoon. Since no one has posted the whole thing here, I'll give you a paragraph. They want us to know they read our feedback. Do you think the rules are uncomplicated by these changes? 



> The Fairshare Vacation Owners Association Board relies on this feedback and looks for opportunities to simplify and enhance the product. Recently, the board met and considered two particular concerns that over time have emerged as trends: the rules are too complicated and the most sought after resorts have limited availability.


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## am1

morrisjim said:


> I'm not a mega renter, but I do rent to others. I think the new policy is good for most owners. It will give more owns access to high demand locations and timeframes which is a good thing for everyone.
> 
> Disclaimer: My position may change after I read the new policy (what I read on this thread I like so far).



Even if people think this is okay they better be worried about whats next.  Wyndham changing policy at will would be reason for me not to purchase from them as a normal owner.


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## Ty1on

Cheryl20772 said:


> My email copy arrived at 12:04 this afternoon. Since no one has posted the whole thing here, I'll give you a paragraph. They want us to know they read our feedback. Do you think the rules are uncomplicated by these changes?



For the average user, I think it does un-complicate the rules.  There are few members reserving 10 rooms at a time.


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## mistalong

Cheryl20772 said:


> Do you think the rules are uncomplicated by these changes?



My wife (the lawyer) goes, "who they he!! do they think they are to tell us how to use our points?  I don't care if we don't have enough points to book 10 at a time."

Me, I think it's good for the standpoint of people who just wan't to book some simple holiday travel without all the hassle.  Ron, has a nitch, New Orleans. But the 40-50 rooms at Christmas at all the Florida locations is a bit excessive.


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## Joe33426

morrisjim said:


> I haven't receive the email as of yet...



You might want to check your spam folder.  I didn't receive the email either, but checked my spam folder and found the email.


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## Joe33426

So, when cancelled reservation points are returned as regular points, we'll be able to use future use year points for reservations in the express window, right?  Under the old rules, IRRC you couldn't borrow cancelled points if you are out of current and future year regular points.  I just had this happen to me due to some weird fluke.  The system said I couldn't borrow cancelled points (or rather that I had no points, but I actually did have a bunch of cancelled points in the future use year).  

Isn't there something else involved with moving points back from future use years to use in the current use year that results in cancelled points?  I wonder if that will change too.


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## vacationhopeful

mistalong said:


> My wife (the lawyer) goes, "who they he!! do they think they are to tell us how to use our points?  I don't care if we don't have enough points to book 10 at a time."
> 
> Me. I think it's good for the standpoint of people who just wan't to book some simple holiday travel without all the hassle.  Ron, has a nitch, New Orleans. But the 40-50 rooms at Christmas at all the Florida locations is a bit excessive.



Please .. South Florida - does not have 40-50 rooms to be booked by ONE MEGARENTER.

Royal Vista is 90 units ... YOU MUST have ARP with ONLY CWP points owned at RV a(s this resort is NOT PART of CWA).

Sea Gardens (largest of the beachy resort and the OLDEST) and Santa Barbara (90 units total) still have lots of PRIME weeks owned as FIXED WEEKs --- a rule change is NOT going to make MORE prime inventory available to any points owner(s). PRIME weeks generally were never SOLD as POINTS.


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## Bigrob

scootr5 said:


> That seems to be what they are saying. I'm guessing they didn't think that loophole through very clearly (or there will be some sort of clarifying fine print).



I don't think there will be, actually. It would be too much of an administrative nightmare to try to keep track of origination of points in a credit pool. 

I wonder if this is phase one of an effort to "tag" points with a status. It's not clear to me how it will be implemented, since regular use points have to be associated to a contract. What contract will cancelled points be returned to?

I've had situations where they restored cancelled points as regular points, all associated to a single contract, so that there were several million points associated to a 500K contract.


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## Designerd

*AM1 - More Thoughts/Feedback of Cancelled Points??*



am1 said:


> Right so will a reservation that is cancelled using credit pool points go back to regular points which can be credit pooled again?



AM1  - I really would like to know how this works with cancelled points.

Example:
I placed my points in credit pool for 2015.  I may need to cancel a reservation.  Will the points go to regular 2015 Points (expires Sept 30 - End of Use year) or will they go to cancelled points with the 3 year expiration?  I paid to have the points pooled before I made my 2015 reservations.  

*If they go back to normal use year, I don't think I am gaining anything because you had to use cancelled points before end of year anyway correct?
- I know that if they go back as regular points, you can transfer to RCI or member with "Wyndham Direct purchase accounts" may use them for rewards (cruises, planes, etc..).

If anyone finds out, please let me know! Looking for the "Silver Lining" Thanks


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## markb53

With the new rules that will be implemented Aug 4th. There is no limit on number of units a owner can book during during ARP. So for someone like Ron who doesn't depend on cancel/rebook to make a profit. I don't see this having that much effect on them. It you do a cancel rebook at 60 days when there basically no inventory left. You will quickly run afoul of the new 20 percent rule. If Wyndham implements this exactly as written, you could cancel and rebook once, but the second time you would be in violation of the 20 percent rule and the rebook wouldn't be allowed. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## bnoble

> Even if people think this is okay they better be worried about whats next. Wyndham changing policy at will would be reason for me not to purchase from them as a normal owner.


For the most part, nearly all of the changes since I've owned in the last 8 years or so have been complete non-events for me. The one potential exception is the GC policy, but that's not been an issue in practice. Yet.  The 10-unit/20% limit may actually be good for me, but it will be on the margins at best.

If you're a landlord, on the other hand, nearly all of those changes have been at least annoying, if not worse.


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## Ty1on

vacationhopeful said:


> Please .. South Florida - does not have 40-50 rooms to be booked by ONE MEGARENTER.
> 
> Royal Vista is 90 units ... YOU MUST have ARP with ONLY CWP points owned at RV a(s this resort is NOT PART of CWA).
> 
> Sea Gardens (largest of the beachy resort and the OLDEST) and Santa Barbara (90 units total) still have lots of PRIME weeks owned as FIXED WEEKs --- a rule change is NOT going to make MORE prime inventory available to any points owner(s). PRIME weeks generally were never SOLD as POINTS.



So then one should not expect to be affected at all by this rule....


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## Ty1on

markb53 said:


> It you do a cancel rebook at 60 days when there basically no inventory left. You will quickly run afoul of the new 20 percent rule.



ding! ding! ding!

That appears to be the motive behind the rule.


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## bnoble

Ty1on said:


> ding! ding! ding!
> 
> That appears to be the motive behind the rule.



I don't follow.  The wording says "20 percent of the inventory at that resort affiliated with CLUB WYNDHAM Plus"---inventory, not *available* inventory. Am I missing something?


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## Ty1on

bnoble said:


> I don't follow.  The wording says "20 percent of the inventory at that resort affiliated with CLUB WYNDHAM Plus"---inventory, not *available* inventory. Am I missing something?



My interpretation is that inventory means reservable nights.  Once a unit is reserved, it's out of inventory for the reservation system.  That's just my read, though.

They even made sure to get in there that if you cancel/rebook after October 1, even with a reservation placed before, the rule is in effect.


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## markb53

Ty1on said:


> ding! ding! ding!
> 
> That appears to be the motive behind the rule.



That is exactly my feeling. We will have to see how it gets implemented. I think this is actually a pretty ingenious way to make it at least a little difficult for mega-renters that count on cancel/rebook. If that's the case I think this is a good thing. As is the change that is happening with how canceled reservations will come back as regular points instead of canceling points. 

I do have a question about the canceled points thing. What if I called today and put my 2016 182k CWA points in the credit pool. They would be good till July 28, 2018. Then in March 2016 I make a reservation with my pool points in January 2017. Then I cancel that reservation would the points come back as regular points in 2016 or 2017.
With the old system they should come back as canceled point in 2017, since that was the year the reservation is. But now they're not going to be canceled points, so who knows. 


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## Bigrob

bnoble said:


> I don't follow.  The wording says "20 percent of the inventory at that resort affiliated with CLUB WYNDHAM Plus"---inventory, not *available* inventory. Am I missing something?



I agree with your interpretation. There is nothing to indicate otherwise.

At certain resorts, there may be relatively little inventory at certain times that is associated with CWP. For example, summer weeks at Westwinds... most of those have not been converted.

It's also unclear if it extends to each separate unit TYPE. If it does, then it could be quite limiting if someone wanted to book several 3BR Presidentials for a family reunion, for example.


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## Bigrob

Ty1on said:


> My interpretation is that inventory means reservable nights.  Once a unit is reserved, it's out of inventory for the reservation system.  That's just my read, though.
> 
> They even made sure to get in there that if you cancel/rebook after October 1, even with a reservation placed before, the rule is in effect.



I don't think so. I think it's based on total inventory associated with CWP (which may be a small subset of the total units at some resorts where most desirable weeks are still in weeks).


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## Bigrob

markb53 said:


> That is exactly my feeling. We will have to see how it gets implemented. I think this is actually a pretty ingenious way to make it at least a little difficult for mega-renters that count on cancel/rebook. If that's the case I think this is a good thing. As is the change that is happening with how canceled reservations will come back as regular points instead of canceling points.
> 
> I do have a question about the canceled points thing. What if I called today and put my 2016 182k CWA points in the credit pool. They would be good till July 28, 2018. Then in March 2016 I make a reservation with my pool points in January 2017. Then I cancel that reservation would the points come back as regular points in 2016 or 2017.
> With the old system they should come back as canceled point in 2017, since that was the year the reservation is. But now they're not going to be canceled points, so who knows.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



I believe they will come back as regular points in the use year of the reservation.


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## am1

The 20% think is just going to make this a disaster.  

Has Wyndham thought of the times when no one wants the inventory but I am limited to 10 units.  That will force me to book at places where other owners want to book.


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## markb53

Bigrob said:


> I agree with your interpretation. There is nothing to indicate otherwise.
> 
> At certain resorts, there may be relatively little inventory at certain times that is associated with CWP. For example, summer weeks at Westwinds... most of those have not been converted.
> 
> It's also unclear if it extends to each separate unit TYPE. If it does, then it could be quite limiting if someone wanted to book several 3BR Presidentials for a family reunion, for example.



By the way it is worded. If there were 10 units available to the point system (not fixed weeks), you could only book 2 since that would be 20 percent. 


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## Bigrob

I wonder if they have been "testing" this inventory management system at Bonnet Creek and that's why there hasn't been any inventory coming back.


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## bnoble

> Has Wyndham thought of the times when no one wants the inventory but I am limited to 10 units.


Do you have a plausible example?


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## am1

bnoble said:


> Do you have a plausible example?



Any time more than 10 units sit empty at its simplest.


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## mistalong

vacationhopeful said:


> Please .. South Florida - does not have 40-50 rooms to be booked by ONE MEGARENTER.



I'm basing it off of this post from earlier this year:

 Sea Gardens Xmas
This morning I dumped 49 units for Christmas and New Years at Sea Gardens.

I needed the points to book elsewhere as wyndham released a bunch of units today.


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## Ty1on

Bigrob said:


> I don't think so. I think it's based on total inventory associated with CWP (which may be a small subset of the total units at some resorts where most desirable weeks are still in weeks).



I see what you are saying now.  So if a resort only has 30 units in CWP inventory, the limit would be 6 no matter how many have actually been reserved.  IF that is the case, then it isn't after cancel/rebook, because you are held to the same limit whether 12 months out or 60 days out.


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## uscav8r

*Interesting Wyndham email (portion) [merged]*

While (almost) everyone is speculating as to the effect on megarenting, there is one aspect that affects the regular owner. Gone will be the poor man's credit pool to accelerate future year's points into the current year. If one were short of points for a reservation, one could use the express reservation to pull points from the next use year, cancel the booking, and then make their desired reservation using cancelled points. 

This is a potential downside for some owners, unless the points are being "deposited" into the year of the reservation like the cancelled were. This isn't clear to me yet. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bigrob

Ty1on said:


> I see what you are saying now.  So if a resort only has 30 units in CWP inventory, the limit would be 6 no matter how many have actually been reserved.  IF that is the case, then it isn't after cancel/rebook, because you are held to the same limit whether 12 months out or 60 days out.



That's the way I'm reading it.


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## Bigrob

uscav8r said:


> While (almost) everyone is speculating as to the effect on megarenting, there is one aspect that affects the regular owner. Gone will be the poor man's credit pool to accelerate future year's points into the current year. If one were short of points for a reservation, one could use the express reservation to pull points from the next use year, cancel the booking, and then make their desired reservation using cancelled points.
> 
> This is a potential downside for some owners.
> 
> This could be offset by regaining ARP.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I'm not sure that's correct. If it works like I think it will, if you pull 2016 points to reserve something in September that you cancel, the points won't go back to 2016. They will be regular use year points 2015, the use year of the reservation they were used for, rather than the original contract they came from. So you could then make a reservation with those points for Christmas (assuming anything were available to book). 

It will be interesting to see how this is actually implemented.


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## uscav8r

Yeah, I just edited my previous post!


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## am1

mistalong said:


> I'm basing it off of this post from earlier this year:
> 
> Sea Gardens Xmas
> This morning I dumped 49 units for Christmas and New Years at Sea Gardens.
> 
> I needed the points to book elsewhere as wyndham released a bunch of units today.



May have been for SB and Palm Aire as well.  That morning I was scrambling to get all the points I could to book somewhere more valuable.


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## jebloomquist

As I read the email
 "In an effort to increase availability, there will be a Nightly Unit Limit on the number of units an owner can book at a single resort of 10 units, or 20 percent of the inventory at that resort affiliated with CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, whichever is less. Going forward, the Nightly Unit Limit should increase availability for more owners at the most sought after resorts. The Nightly Unit Limit applies to new Standard and Express reservations booked after October 1, 2015 (ARP reservations are not limited). This will not impact existing reservations made prior to October 1, unless the reservation is cancelled and, after October 1, a new reservation is confirmed."

The email does not say "account". It says "owner". Can an account have more that 10 reservations, if they are spread between the "owner" and "other owners" in the account? This, I believe has still to be determined.

Jim


----------



## Bigrob

jebloomquist said:


> As I read the email
> "In an effort to increase availability, there will be a Nightly Unit Limit on the number of units an owner can book at a single resort of 10 units, or 20 percent of the inventory at that resort affiliated with CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, whichever is less. Going forward, the Nightly Unit Limit should increase availability for more owners at the most sought after resorts. The Nightly Unit Limit applies to new Standard and Express reservations booked after October 1, 2015 (ARP reservations are not limited). This will not impact existing reservations made prior to October 1, unless the reservation is cancelled and, after October 1, a new reservation is confirmed."
> 
> The email does not say "account". It says "owner". Can an account have more that 10 reservations, if they are spread between the "owner" and "other owners" in the account? This, I believe has still to be determined.
> 
> Jim



Interesting that you would interpret it in a more positive way. Another way to interpret that would be to assert that it does not matter if an owner has multiple accounts, they would still be subject to the lessor of 10 or 20% of inventory across all the accounts. 

It is also unclear as to whether reservations in an owner's account that have guest confirmations on them would "count" against the limit.


----------



## Ty1on

Bigrob said:


> Interesting that you would interpret it in a more positive way. Another way to interpret that would be to assert that it does not matter if an owner has multiple accounts, they would still be subject to the lessor of 10 or 20% of inventory across all the accounts.
> 
> It is also unclear as to whether reservations in an owner's account that have guest confirmations on them would "count" against the limit.



The only way to look at this imho is as a shot over the bow of megarenters.  With that in mind, I would be surprised if they didn't count GCs against the limit.  I would think if they chose one factor not to count, it would be reservations in the guest's own name.


----------



## Bigrob

Ty1on said:


> The only way to look at this imho is as a shot over the bow of megarenters.  With that in mind, I would be surprised if they didn't count GCs against the limit.  I would think if they chose one factor not to count, it would be reservations in the guest's own name.



Not really. I don't know about most, but I wait to put guest names on until the last possible moment for a number of reasons, but mainly to maintain flexibility in case guests wants to change dates or needs to cancel. In other words, I get calls frequently from Wyndham warning of overlapping reservations that need to be addressed in the next 48 hours or 10 days. So not counting those reservations would not make much sense.


----------



## Ty1on

Bigrob said:


> Not really. I don't know about most, but I wait to put guest names on until the last possible moment for a number of reasons, but mainly to maintain flexibility in case guests wants to change dates or needs to cancel. In other words, I get calls frequently from Wyndham warning of overlapping reservations that need to be addressed in the next 48 hours or 10 days. So not counting those reservations would not make much sense.



But in essence, multiple reservations without GCs are already disallowed and subject to cancellation, right?  Or is there a nuance I'm not understanding?  If I'm right, then this rule can only be targeted at GCs,  If I'm wrong, well what's new?


----------



## Bigrob

There is another interesting facet to this. The regular use year points that are associated to a contract TRANSFER with that contract when the contract is sold. Previously, if you had a contract, made a reservation from those points, and cancelled the reservation, the cancelled points stayed in the account and the contract transferred without the points. 

But now...?


----------



## Bigrob

Ty1on said:


> But in essence, multiple reservations without GCs are already disallowed and subject to cancellation, right?  Or is there a nuance I'm not understanding?  If I'm right, then this rule can only be targeted at GCs,  If I'm wrong, well what's new?



That only applies inside of 15 days. And does not apply to same-day reservations. I almost always enter the GCs before the 15 day mark. In a few cases, I've had trouble getting the guest data for the GC and I have to watch to make sure there are different owner names assigned to the ones inside the window.


----------



## Ty1on

Bigrob said:


> That only applies inside of 15 days. And does not apply to same-day reservations. I almost always enter the GCs before the 15 day mark. In a few cases, I've had trouble getting the guest data for the GC and I have to watch to make sure there are different owner names assigned to the ones inside the window.



Learning a lot from you and Ron.  Some of it takes a couple times to sink in.


----------



## Cheryl20772

Designerd said:


> AM1  - I really would like to know how this works with cancelled points.
> 
> Example:
> I placed my points in credit pool for 2015.  I may need to cancel a reservation.  Will the points go to regular 2015 Points (expires Sept 30 - End of Use year) or will they go to cancelled points with the 3 year expiration?  I paid to have the points pooled before I made my 2015 reservations.
> 
> *If they go back to normal use year, I don't think I am gaining anything because you had to use cancelled points before end of year anyway correct?
> - I know that if they go back as regular points, you can transfer to RCI or member with "Wyndham Direct purchase accounts" may use them for rewards (cruises, planes, etc..).
> 
> If anyone finds out, please let me know! Looking for the "Silver Lining" Thanks



You are not alone!

I always pool points just before use year which is April 1 for my points. Then last week I had to cancel a reservation which went back as cancel points but with expiration Dec 31, 2015. I have nothing else that expires Dec 31; so what use year did they use? I plan to use them in Oct or Nov so not a problem, but I'm going to wait and see how they look after Aug 4. I was expecting March 31, 2016 expiration.


----------



## traveldaddy

Could this be a precursor to tracking all points to the contract level?

Which the next step could be to have resale contracts not get VIP benefits or some other rule changes that screw resale owners? 

They might be working to a different endgame and just figuring out the IT and legal to get there in steps. 

Just conjecture 

Have not seen the email yet.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Here is another QUESTION:

Myrtle Beach Resorts' Regional ARP --- if the 10 unit limit applies to ALL the those summer weeks (say July 4th week).... that could take a BIG hit on those owners who rent. 

Are there even any TUGGER/owners who do a large rental presence in that area?

And the Holiday/Spring Break weeks at Bonnet Creek .... will those owners go after LARGER units? Or stick with their bread & butter 2bdr units with a upgrade from the 1bdr?


----------



## Ty1on

vacationhopeful said:


> Here is another QUESTION:
> 
> Myrtle Beach Resorts' Regional ARP --- if the 10 unit limit applies to ALL the those summer weeks (say July 4th week).... that could take a BIG hit on those owners who rent.
> 
> Are there even any TUGGER/owners who do a large rental presence in that area?
> 
> And the Holiday/Spring Break weeks at Bonnet Creek .... will those owners go after LARGER units? Or stick with their bread & butter 2bdr units with a upgrade from the 1bdr?



Is there really any doubt that this move is targeting renters?


----------



## antjmar

mistalong said:


> My wife (the lawyer) goes, "who they he!! do they think they are to tell us how to use our points?  I don't care if we don't have enough points to book 10 at a time."
> 
> Me, I think it's good for the standpoint of people who just wan't to book some simple holiday travel without all the hassle.  Ron, has a nitch, New Orleans. But the 40-50 rooms at Christmas at all the Florida locations is a bit excessive.


I agree with you and your wife, it may be 10 at a time  today (which is only 5 units if doing the cancel and upgrade trick), but next year it may be 5 or 3 at a time...
Should help the "average" owner.


----------



## bnoble

am1 said:


> Any time more than 10 units sit empty at its simplest.



Well, you could have booked all ten of those last week, too, so it's not like it has gotten any worse.

I understand this is not a good development for you, but this particular argument for why the rest of us should care is a stretch.


----------



## am1

bnoble said:


> Well, you could have booked all ten of those last week, too, so it's not like it has gotten any worse.
> 
> I understand this is not a good development for you, but this particular argument for why the rest of us should care is a stretch.



But in some cases it is true.  Wyndham would rather have units sit empty then have owners booked them.


----------



## bestresort

*wyndham sucks*

Wyndham is overly complex and this makes it worse.

Furthermore, they keep trying to punish heir best customers by changing rulesyear after year.

Need i remind you

1. costs to add guest names
2. costs to make reservations
3. now limits to use points

This is a ponzi scheme ready to implode.

If they take my usability away, they can have their points back a and the loan that came with it.


----------



## bestresort

*sad but true*



am1 said:


> But in some cases it is true.  Wyndham would rather have units sit empty then have owners booked them.



They want to push demand from the best resorts to the less desirable ones


----------



## am1

bestresort said:


> They want to push demand from the best resorts to the less desirable ones



But even at the less desired resorts and times we will now be limited to booking 10 units.  How does that help anyone?  

Lets remember at 10 months everyone has the same chance to book what ever is available.


----------



## ace2000

am1 said:


> But even at the less desired resorts and times we will now be limited to booking 10 units.  *How does that help anyone?  *



Seriously?  I think it's pretty clear that the end goal is to create more inventory for the high demand resorts/times, which in turn benefits a greater number of owners. And that means the mega-renters will have to use their points elsewhere at the lower demanded resorts/times.  But, they will have to be more creative and use their points regardless somewhere, or they'll lose them.  

At least that's my take on this latest change.


----------



## vacationhopeful

We are all looking too close to home and not at the bigger picture --- the BIG Question is:

Will this "rule" apply to Extra Holidays who at the inside the 60 day from checkin mark ... gets to GRAB 90% of the inventory that becomes available?

The SMART money follows the paper money: Extra Holidays WINS! with even MORE (free) inventory inside the 60 day from checkin mark via these cancellations.

And then I wonder HOW long the exclusion for "ARP made reservations" will exist? Is that ONLY the ARP or will it include the VIP Platinum 2 per USE year bennies/perks?


----------



## am1

ace2000 said:


> Seriously?  I think it's pretty clear that the end goal is to create more inventory for the high demand resorts/times, which in turn benefits a greater number of owners. And that means the mega-renters will have to use their points elsewhere at the lower demanded resorts/times.  But, they will have to be more creative and use their points regardless somewhere, or they'll lose them.
> 
> At least that's my take on this latest change.



You do not think some owners will want to book more than 10 units at a resort that has excess inventory that would otherwise go unused?

Who is going to pay for all this administration and where is the bonus money coming from to pay the person who thought of this.


----------



## ace2000

am1 said:


> You do not think some owners will want to book more than 10 units at a resort that has excess inventory that would otherwise go unused?



Tell us who should care about the answer to this?  If it really is inventory that would otherwise go unused, what's the big deal?  Perhaps I'm missing your point.


----------



## mistalong

vacationhopeful said:


> the BIG Question is:
> 
> Will this "rule" apply to Extra Holidays who at the inside the 60 day from checkin mark ... gets to GRAB 90% of the inventory that becomes available?




EXACTLY! 

Let's add this up:
+More availability for Extra Holidays
+Starting a drought with the resale market by via Ovation

Equals More profit for Wyndham


Here's some questions  I'm curious how these situations that will factor in to this:

1) With Ovation, as they take these  contracts back until they are sold to new owners who's responsible for that contracts MF?  Or does our MF's go up to compensate for fewer owners?

2) With the possibility more availability for Extra Vacations with this new format, when Wyndham sells those rooms does a portion of the proceeds go to the HOA?


----------



## Bigrob

*Some important clarifications...*

So, I did call in to check on this, and got some interesting clarifications:

1. There is an "transition period" that will occur between Aug 3/4 - where all of your current cancelled points will become regular use year points. These points will NOT be associated to a contract... the contract line will be "blank".

2. AFTER August 4th, any reservation you cancel, the points will go back to where they came from to make the reservation, NOT to the use year of the reservation. The examples I was provided included:

    A. Reservations made from a credit pool will go back to the same credit pool
    B. Reservations made from a contract will go back to that contract and to the same use year of that contract - so if you borrow points to make a reservation in the express window, with the intention of cancelling the reservation and making a different reservation NOT in the express window - you will no longer be able to do this. 

3. The 10 unit/20% limit does NOT apply to units listed with Extra Holidays. You could reserve all of Bonnet Creek (if you happened to have several hundred million points) and put all of the reservations with Extra Holidays, and none of the reservations would be cancelled. 

4. There will NOT be a block on making the reservation when you reach the Nightly Unit Limit (NUL). What will happen instead is that the reservation will be automatically cancelled. Supposedly the points will go back to where they are supposed to go (unless it's inside the 15-day window, in which case the points will simply be lost.) Which reservation gets cancelled when you book the 11th night? Supposedly, the last one. This is troubling because you may not know that a reservation you're making isn't allowed, and you need to know that because you may have to choose between which reservation you'll want to keep, rather than having the system automatically cancel the last one.

5. Overlaps count, even if only a single night of overlap. 

The "waiver" for placing reservations with Extra Holidays seems to reflect an OCI issue (Organizational Conflict of Interest). Wyndham is, in its role as manager/administrator of CWP, advantaging its own subsidiary to the detriment of owners and 3rd party companies. I'll leave it to the attorneys amongst us to weigh in on that aspect.


----------



## am1

mistalong said:


> EXACTLY!
> 
> 
> Here's some questions  I'm curious how these situations that will factor in to this:
> 
> 1) With Ovation, as they take these  contracts back until they are sold to new owners who's responsible for that contracts MF?  Or does our MF's go up to compensate for fewer owners?
> 
> 2) With the possibility more availability for Extra Vacations with this new format, when Wyndham sells those rooms does a portion of the proceeds go to the HOA?



The answers to your questions are related.  Not sure who pays the mfs for unsold ovation contracts but Wyndham is suppose to pay mfs for their unsold points.  Those points as well as others that owners have traded in are the basis for wyndham being able to rent out reservations.

This is part of the reason why new timeshares have low mfs.


----------



## Bigrob

mistalong said:


> EXACTLY!
> 
> Let's add this up:
> +More availability for Extra Holidays
> +Starting a drought with the resale market by via Ovation
> 
> Equals More profit for Wyndham
> 
> 
> Here's some questions  I'm curious how these situations that will factor in to this:
> 
> 1) With Ovation, as they take these  contracts back until they are sold to new owners who's responsible for that contracts MF?  Or does our MF's go up to compensate for fewer owners?
> 
> 2) With the possibility more availability for Extra Vacations with this new format, when Wyndham sells those rooms does a portion of the proceeds go to the HOA?



I think these changes my have a stabilizing influence on the resale market. Some current buyers may now sit on the sidelines based on the recent changes. So while supply may still be reduced, I think demand is also going to decline.

When Wyndham takes back contracts, it essentially is treated the same way as unsold inventory, and Wyndham is responsible for its pro rata share of the HOA fees. I don't believe Wyndham charges itself CWP fees on unsold inventory, so taking back inventory may have a nominal impact on the CWP portion as it slightly reduces the denominator.

Extra Holidays doesn't have anything to do with payment of HOA fees. Those fees are paid by the owner regardless of how or whether units or reservations are occupied. If, as an owner, I make a reservation and have Extra Holidays market it for me, I still pay the HOA via my regular fees. The same is true for the unsold inventory that Wyndham places with Extra Holiday (as Wyndham is the largest Wyndham owner and places the vast majority of inventory with Extra Holidays). Wyndham is still responsible for paying its pro rata share of HOA fees on the inventory it owns.


----------



## tschwa2

Are Extra Holiday's 100% non Wyndham owned inventory?  Does Wyndham reserve inventory with unsold points and put that inventory into Extra Holidays and if so do they market their weeks before other owners?


Another question.  So lets just say an owner books 20 units over a summer weekend using ARP and then tries to cancel and rebook.  Could they still do it for 10 units but not 11 or more?


----------



## am1

Thanks.  Did they say if it was per owner or account?  How many people trust wyndham to cancel the correct reservations and to never make mistakes? 

Wyndham seems to be overstepping their mandate in managing the resorts and reservation system.  



Bigrob said:


> So, I did call in to check on this, and got some interesting clarifications:
> 
> 1. There is an "transition period" that will occur between Aug 3/4 - where all of your current cancelled points will become regular use year points. These points will NOT be associated to a contract... the contract line will be "blank".
> 
> 2. AFTER August 4th, any reservation you cancel, the points will go back to where they came from to make the reservation, NOT to the use year of the reservation. The examples I was provided included:
> 
> A. Reservations made from a credit pool will go back to the same credit pool
> B. Reservations made from a contract will go back to that contract and to the same use year of that contract - so if you borrow points to make a reservation in the express window, with the intention of cancelling the reservation and making a different reservation NOT in the express window - you will no longer be able to do this.
> 
> 3. The 10 unit/20% limit does NOT apply to units listed with Extra Holidays. You could reserve all of Bonnet Creek (if you happened to have several hundred million points) and put all of the reservations with Extra Holidays, and none of the reservations would be cancelled.
> 
> 4. There will NOT be a block on making the reservation when you reach the Nightly Unit Limit (NUL). What will happen instead is that the reservation will be automatically cancelled. Supposedly the points will go back to where they are supposed to go (unless it's inside the 15-day window, in which case the points will simply be lost.) Which reservation gets cancelled when you book the 11th night? Supposedly, the last one. This is troubling because you may not know that a reservation you're making isn't allowed, and you need to know that because you may have to choose between which reservation you'll want to keep, rather than having the system automatically cancel the last one.
> 
> 5. Overlaps count, even if only a single night of overlap.
> 
> The "waiver" for placing reservations with Extra Holidays seems to reflect an OCI issue (Organizational Conflict of Interest). Wyndham is, in its role as manager/administrator of CWP, advantaging its own subsidiary to the detriment of owners and 3rd party companies. I'll leave it to the attorneys amongst us to weigh in on that aspect.


----------



## ronparise

tschwa2 said:


> Are Extra Holiday's 100% non Wyndham owned inventory?  Does Wyndham reserve inventory with unsold points and put that inventory into Extra Holidays and if so do they market their weeks before other owners?
> 
> 
> Another question.  So lets just say an owner books 20 units over a summer weekend using ARP and then tries to cancel and rebook.  Could they still do it for 10 units but not 11 or more?



thats the way I see it, I can rebook 10 of my arp reservations but not 11.


----------



## Ty1on

Bigrob said:


> So, I did call in to check on this, and got some interesting clarifications:
> 
> 1. There is an "transition period" that will occur between Aug 3/4 - where all of your current cancelled points will become regular use year points. These points will NOT be associated to a contract... the contract line will be "blank".
> 
> 2. AFTER August 4th, any reservation you cancel, the points will go back to where they came from to make the reservation, NOT to the use year of the reservation. The examples I was provided included:
> 
> A. Reservations made from a credit pool will go back to the same credit pool
> B. Reservations made from a contract will go back to that contract and to the same use year of that contract - so if you borrow points to make a reservation in the express window, with the intention of cancelling the reservation and making a different reservation NOT in the express window - you will no longer be able to do this.
> 
> 3. The 10 unit/20% limit does NOT apply to units listed with Extra Holidays. You could reserve all of Bonnet Creek (if you happened to have several hundred million points) and put all of the reservations with Extra Holidays, and none of the reservations would be cancelled.
> 
> 4. There will NOT be a block on making the reservation when you reach the Nightly Unit Limit (NUL). What will happen instead is that the reservation will be automatically cancelled. Supposedly the points will go back to where they are supposed to go (unless it's inside the 15-day window, in which case the points will simply be lost.) Which reservation gets cancelled when you book the 11th night? Supposedly, the last one. This is troubling because you may not know that a reservation you're making isn't allowed, and you need to know that because you may have to choose between which reservation you'll want to keep, rather than having the system automatically cancel the last one.
> 
> 5. Overlaps count, even if only a single night of overlap.
> 
> The "waiver" for placing reservations with Extra Holidays seems to reflect an OCI issue (Organizational Conflict of Interest). Wyndham is, in its role as manager/administrator of CWP, advantaging its own subsidiary to the detriment of owners and 3rd party companies. I'll leave it to the attorneys amongst us to weigh in on that aspect.



So if I understand the cancellation properly, owners will have one shot with credit pool points from past use years....


----------



## antjmar

ronparise said:


> thats the way I see it, I can rebook 10 of my arp reservations but not 11.



I dont think this new rule applies to ARP. so you can book as many as you want using ARP.
edit:
yes you are correct if you are cancelling and rebooking...


----------



## Ty1on

tschwa2 said:


> Are Extra Holiday's 100% non Wyndham owned inventory?  Does Wyndham reserve inventory with unsold points and put that inventory into Extra Holidays and if so do they market their weeks before other owners?



Unsold points are not within the points pool.  Wyndham pays MF on any points that are in the pool that they've bought or taken back through loan default, cancellation, or Ovation.  This MF payment does not come out of club funds.


----------



## Bigrob

Ty1on said:


> Unsold points are not within the points pool.



Are you sure about this? My understanding has been that until sold, Wyndham has both the responsibility (maintenance fee) and right to use unsold points. Otherwise, in new resorts the reserve funds would be seriously underfunded, maintenance fees would be astronomical until a large percentage of the resort was sold, etc. 

To Cindy's question, the answer is yes, Wyndham does deposit large blocks of inventory to Extra Holidays - by far the largest owner and depositor. Making the Extra Holidays exception to the NUL quite self-serving (some might say unethical and possibly illegal, in violation of anti-trust law).


----------



## am1

antjmar said:


> I dont think this new rule applies to ARP. so you can book as many as you want using ARP.
> edit:
> yes you are correct if you are cancelling and rebooking...



Why does ARP reservations get a pass?  Usually when someone uses their ARP to make a reservation those are for the highest demand times.


----------



## Bigrob

Ty1on said:


> So if I understand the cancellation properly, owners will have one shot with credit pool points from past use years....



Correct. If you have points in a credit pool that expire early in 2016, you best make a reservation with those points now and cancel it. I think someone posted they had points in a credit pool expiring Jan 9 2016. If they make a reservation in for early Jan 2016 and cancel it, they will have the points for all of 2016 (assuming they have a January use year). If they don't... and wait until after August 4th... when they try it, it will just spring back to the credit pool expiration date of Jan 9 2016.


----------



## Bigrob

One other piece of advice for those with a fair number of contracts and points - you may want to take a screen print on August 3rd. There may be some "glitches" especially if you have a fair number of contracts/points in various statuses.


----------



## uscav8r

bestresort said:


> Wyndham is overly complex and this makes it worse.
> ...
> If they take my usability away, they can have their points back a and the loan that came with it.


I disagree with your first statement, but I guess it depends on your point of view. For all practical purposes, this change actually SIMPLIFIES the system for a majority of owners. Now a regular owner has one less points category to understand and deal with.

Unless you are a megarenter or high-volume owner who will conceivably book a chunk of a given resort at a given time and then rely on the cancel-rebook game (which has already become an iffy proposition), the effect will be transparent.

I think there may be a 2nd/3rd order effect, whether intended or not: megarenters may put more effort (even more than is already the case) into buying up contracts at specific resorts (or CWA) to get into the unaffected ARP zone. This, in turn, will further drive up resale prices (although the impact may be a bit muted due to the already inflated prices and lack of inventory). Regular owners may find themselves priced out of the ARP resale market. And if things get TOO pricey, they will start looking at other, higher-end systems (HGVC, Marriott, Starwood) as financially viable alternatives to Wyndham.

As Bigrob alluded in another unrelated thread, driving commercial renters to ARP and reducing their cancel-rebook chances essentially slows down their capital turnover rate as the capital (i.e., points) is tied for longer periods of time until a return is realized (rental funds received). Whether this is enough to dissuade them from continuing/expanding their businesses remains to be seen. It certainly is causing some angst amongst the ranks as shown by this thread.

But as in all things, if there exists enough financial incentive to do business, the megarenters who can adapt will survive and those who cannot adapt will suffer and/or leave.


----------



## 55plus

I received the email today and read it thoroughly. It meets the needs and wants of the majority of owners - the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. For once Wyndham got it right...


----------



## uscav8r

Bigrob said:


> So, I did call in to check on this, and got some interesting clarifications:
> ...
> 2. AFTER August 4th, any reservation you cancel, the points will go back to where they came from to make the reservation, NOT to the use year of the reservation. The examples I was provided included:
> 
> A. Reservations made from a credit pool will go back to the same credit pool
> B. Reservations made from a contract will go back to that contract and to the same use year of that contract - so if you borrow points to make a reservation in the express window, with the intention of cancelling the reservation and making a different reservation NOT in the express window - you will no longer be able to do this.


Bye bye, Poor Man's Points Accelerator. Now the only option is to rent points from Wyndham, and even then, only for up to 1 night of a reservation in the SRP.

Cancel a Credit Pool booking and retain potentially several years of life? This is actually a boon for those who use the credit pool continuously (offset by the "unlimited" ARP bookings that are given up by pooling, of course).


----------



## antjmar

am1 said:


> Why does ARP reservations get a pass?  Usually when someone uses their ARP to make a reservation those are for the highest demand times.



Probably since you have a deed which guarantees you the week or points at that resort and the ARP booking. 

"


----------



## Sandy VDH

Getting rid of cancelled points. I am very happy with.

Limit bookings to 10% of inventory, does not impact me at all.

Happy with the change, as it is written.


----------



## Ty1on

Bigrob said:


> Are you sure about this? My understanding has been that until sold, Wyndham has both the responsibility (maintenance fee) and right to use unsold points. Otherwise, in new resorts the reserve funds would be seriously underfunded, maintenance fees would be astronomical until a large percentage of the resort was sold, etc.



The developer (not the Club) owns the unsold points and pays their MF, you were correct.  What I read separates the two, but for all intents and purposes, it is under the same umbrella.


----------



## bnoble

> AFTER August 4th, any reservation you cancel, the points will go back to where they came from to make the reservation, NOT to the use year of the reservation.


I'll miss the ability to convert pool credits into something that can be deposited to RCI, and the ability to borrow into express, cancel, and rebook into Standard.  But, on balance, this does make things simpler, and the ability to keep credits in the credit pool might provide some value.

Edited to add: thinking about this more, you can still accomplish borrow-for-standard by credit pooling the required future year's points, so the flexibility is still there, it just costs a few bucks to do.


----------



## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> 2. AFTER August 4th, any reservation you cancel, the points will go back to where they came from to make the reservation, NOT to the use year of the reservation. The examples I was provided included:
> 
> A. Reservations made from a credit pool will go back to the same credit pool
> B. Reservations made from a contract will go back to that contract and to the same use year of that contract - so if you borrow points to make a reservation in the express window, with the intention of cancelling the reservation and making a different reservation NOT in the express window - you will no longer be able to do this.



It would seem this will also end the practice of rolling cancelled points forward to future use years by those with multiple use years in the same account.

(Not everyone had their contracts aligned to a single use year, and some re-acquired multiple use years after the use year consolidation.)


----------



## alexadeparis

antjmar said:


> Probably since you have a deed which guarantees you the week or points at that resort and the ARP booking.
> 
> "



Correct. ARP reservations are deeded rights and Wyndham cannot change the privileges on those. It may unintentionally create some demand for the resale contracts in hot ARP resorts, even the smaller contracts will be snapped up.


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> It would seem this will also end the practice of rolling cancelled points forward to future use years by those with multiple use years in the same account.
> 
> (Not everyone had their contracts aligned to a single use year, and some re-acquired multiple use years after the use year consolidation.)



That is correct. Also, according to the agent I spoke with, the system will automatically make reservations with points that expire earliest - ordinarily what you'd want, unless you're making a booking close to the expiration of those points, in which case you might want to save those points for reservations that come earlier in their use year. So depending upon what you're making the reservation for, you may need to call in to restack where the reservation was made from. At least you don't have to call in to restack to use cancelled points instead of regular (since the system irritatingly pulled from regular use points before cancelled points).


----------



## Ty1on

CO skier said:


> It would seem this will also end the practice of rolling cancelled points forward to future use years by those with multiple use years in the same account.
> 
> (Not everyone had their contracts aligned to a single use year, and some re-acquired multiple use years after the use year consolidation.)



So the use-year consolidation was a one-time shot?


----------



## Bigrob

Sandy VDH said:


> Getting rid of cancelled points. I am very happy with.
> 
> Limit bookings to 10% of inventory, does not impact me at all.
> 
> Happy with the change, as it is written.



the one thing you may miss is not being able to roll points forward anymore.


----------



## CO skier

alexadeparis said:


> Correct. ARP reservations are deeded rights and Wyndham cannot change the privileges on those. It may unintentionally create some demand for the resale contracts in hot ARP resorts, even the smaller contracts will be snapped up.



None of my UDI deeds mention anything about Advance Reservation Priority.


----------



## CO skier

Ty1on said:


> So the use-year consolidation was a one-time shot?



It was hit-or-miss then, and it still is.


----------



## scootr5

Has anyone else considered this "Nightly Limit" of 10 units like this: I reserve 20 units at Royal Vista using ARP for check in February 20th. on January 2nd I cancel and rebook 10 units. On January 3rd I cancel and rebook the remaining 10 units.

The policy states "Nightly Unit Limit on the number of units an owner can book at a single resort of 10 units". I have only booked 10 per night.


----------



## Ty1on

scootr5 said:


> Has anyone else considered this "Nightly Limit" of 10 units like this: I reserve 20 units at Royal Vista using ARP for check in February 20th. on January 2nd I cancel and rebook 10 units. On January 3rd I cancel and rebook the remaining 10 units.
> 
> The policy states "Nightly Unit Limit on the number of units an owner can book at a single resort of 10 units". I have only booked 10 per night.



I'm thinking it would work like this:

February 20, 20 units.
January 2, you cancel rebook 10 units, total 20
January 3, you cancel/rebook 10 units, total 20
Sometime between Jan 2 and whenever, 10 units are cancelled because you have exceeded the 10 unit limit.
After that, you have 10 units booked.

I have a feeling that if you are "paying full fare" for the rooms, they're fine.
I really think it's Cancel/Rebook they are going after.


----------



## scootr5

Ty1on said:


> I'm thinking it would work like this:
> 
> February 20, 20 units.
> January 2, you cancel rebook 10 units, total 20
> January 3, you cancel/rebook 10 units, total 20
> Sometime between Jan 2 and whenever, 10 units are cancelled because you have exceeded the 10 unit limit.
> After that, you have 10 units booked.
> 
> I have a feeling that if you are "paying full fare" for the rooms, they're fine.
> I really think it's Cancel/Rebook they are going after.



Sure, but the email states there is a nightly limit on the number you can book. I only booked 10 units per night.

It doesn't state that there is a an overall limit on the number of reservations that can be in place at one time. That was how Bluegren implemented theirs: "To give all Club members fair access to available inventory, a maximum of 100 advance reservations (or 500 nights), with no more than 10 reservations in a single destination or region, may be confirmed and/or pending at any given point in time. Should you exceed the maximum reservation or nightly allowance, reservations will automatically be canceled on your behalf to bring you into compliance."


----------



## CO skier

scootr5 said:


> Has anyone else considered this "Nightly Limit" of 10 units like this: I reserve 20 units at Royal Vista using ARP for check in February 20th. on January 2nd I cancel and rebook 10 units. On January 3rd I cancel and rebook the remaining 10 units.
> 
> The policy states "Nightly Unit Limit on the number of units an owner can book at a single resort of 10 units". I have only booked 10 per night.



The Nightly Unit Limit applies to the nights in the reservations, not the number of reservations that may be made at the same resort in any given day.

In the above example, the second group of 10 overlaps the first group, so 10 reservations are out of compliance with the new rule and subject to cancellation.


----------



## Bigrob

scootr5 said:


> Has anyone else considered this "Nightly Limit" of 10 units like this: I reserve 20 units at Royal Vista using ARP for check in February 20th. on January 2nd I cancel and rebook 10 units. On January 3rd I cancel and rebook the remaining 10 units.
> 
> The policy states "Nightly Unit Limit on the number of units an owner can book at a single resort of 10 units". I have only booked 10 per night.



Pretty sure it won't work like that. If you cancel and rebook the first 10, those are the 10 that will get canceled, and you'll be left with 10 remaining (full fare) reservations. When you go for the second round of cancel rebook, assuming they are still available and don't get snatched, you'll be able to cancel and rebook those. 

If you already have the max number of units, anything you do after that will result in a reservation being cancelled (last in first out). Therefore, you will want to make sure if you're replacing an existing reservation, that you "have room", especially if you've found a particularly good reservation.

I don't think this is directed at cancel/rebook per se; I think it's directed at those that grab 50-100 reservations when they find out about a championship fight in Las Vegas, for example. (I wasn't smart enough to be one of those). Some event gets announced and all the units are immediately swept up by mega-renters who rent there, and regular owners are boxed out. That's the target.

If it limits cancel/rebook and eliminates points rolling, those are just added benefits from Wyndham's perspective.


----------



## csxjohn

You're right, it states

" Nightly Unit Limit on the number of units an owner can book "

I am 99.99% positive that since units are not all booked at night they are talking about nights booked.  In your case will have 20 nights booked no matter when you made the bookings.

As always I could be interpreting this wrong.


----------



## scootr5

CO skier said:


> The Nightly Unit Limit applies to the nights in the reservations, not the number of reservations that may be made at the same resort in any given day.
> 
> In the above example, the second group of 10 overlaps the first group, so 10 reservations are out of compliance with the new rule and subject to cancellation.



I could see how it could be interpreted that way as well, since the language is slightly ambiguous. BG was at least very clear in their explanation.


----------



## cyseitz

CruiseGuy said:


> I haven't received this email from Wyndham.  Are there others who haven't received it yet?



I have not gotten that...Maybe they sent it to those who book 10 or more on the same dates??


----------



## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> I don't think this is directed at cancel/rebook per se; I think it's directed at those that grab 50-100 reservations when they find out about a championship fight in Las Vegas, for example. (I wasn't smart enough to be one of those). Some event gets announced and all the units are immediately swept up by mega-renters who rent there, and regular owners are boxed out. That's the target.



Under the new rule, 9 mega-renters and maybe 10 regular owners book those 100 reservations in the first few minutes or hour instead of 1 or 2 mega-renters booking the 100 nights.

I don't see how general availability was increased by much, as stated in the original email.


----------



## CO skier

scootr5 said:


> Has anyone else considered this "Nightly Limit" of 10 units like this: I reserve 20 units at Royal Vista using ARP for check in February 20th. on January 2nd I cancel and rebook 10 units. On January 3rd I cancel and rebook the remaining 10 units.
> 
> The policy states "Nightly Unit Limit on the number of units an owner can book at a single resort of 10 units". I have only booked 10 per night.



You are onto something with the ARP exemption.

10 one bedrooms and 10 3-or-4 bedroom Presidentials may be reserved during ARP (20 units for the same nights).

At 60 days, cancel and rebook the 1 bedroom for 50%, then cancel a Presidential and upgrade.

There are now 18 ARP units and 1 unit subject to the new rule.

Repeat this 10 times (unlikely, but theoretically just as possible as before the new rule), and the result is 10 Presidentials booked for 50% of the 1 bedroom price plus 10 1 bedroom units back in inventory -- exactly as what can occur now.  Here, again, I do not see how availability was improved under the rule.

If 3 mega-renters are specializing in a certain resort and reserving 30 (or 60) units per week at their resort, under the new rule the 3 mega-renters just specialize in the other two resorts, too, and each mega-renter makes 10 (or 20 ARP) reservations at each of the three resorts.  Once again, there is no more availability under the new rule than what is available currently.

I am still trying to understand where all this "increased availability" from the new rule will be found.  It seems to be more of a PR campaign than anything substantial.  The effects on the credit pool points and ending rollover points appear to be the most significant -- and maybe these effects were unintended.


----------



## vacationhopeful

It appears IF you have ARP and booked during the ARP window .. you could have LOTS of units overlapping more than 10 per night. No cancellation due to the "NEW" policy. But when you can & rebook to save "points" using any VIP discount .. those "new/recent" reservation are with points NOT in the ARP booking window; subject to cancellation.

So the NEXT real question I have is:
I book during the ARP window a Royal Vista unit with 2017 Regular points for FRI Jan 7, 2017 .... I cancel the reservation (work keeps me home) for Dec 23 ... my points are returned as Regular Points. I immediately book with those newly Returned Regular points using their ARP again for Royal Vista the week before Christmas & NYE.

I feel that is within the new procedure ... as no cancelled points; hence, the can be ARP points again ... later in the year, as long as the new reservation is made within the ARP window.

Dang ,,, this would also work for Myrtle Beach ARP and late June reservation.


----------



## ronparise

Co-skier is exactly right, there is no increased availability. 

For the high demand stuff that gets taken in the first few minutes 13 months in advance, (Mardi Gras and Bike Week come to mind) there is no change, 

for the moderately high demand stuff (like Myrtle Beach in the summer. or Glacier Canyon weekends)  Most of this gets taken in the ARP period, and the rest in the first few minutes at ten months. 

At a hypothetical 300 unit resort, it doesnt make any difference to the bulk of the ownership whether 10 owners get 30 reservations each or 30 owners get 10 each, or 300 get one each, any way you slice it all the best stuff is gone when everyone else goes looking. in other words most owners will still come up short. 

bottom line:  the change will affect a few individuals like me and Eric, (and we will no doubt have to make some changes in the way we operate)  but nothing changes for the rest of the owner base.

The big question is why was the email I got addressed to Richard Raspenti,


----------



## Bigrob

ronparise said:


> The big question is why was the email I got addressed to Richard Raspenti,



I'm glad you said this. Because mine was addressed to Robert Lennon.


----------



## traveldaddy

Bigrob said:


> I'm glad you said this. Because mine was addressed to Robert Lennon.



And we are supposed to believe they will track points correctly back to their origination?

Good call on the screenshot before Aug 3 btw.

Jeesh.

I still haven't received the e-mail, but am looking forward to seeing whom it will be addressed to.


----------



## Vacationfuntips

I borrowed points from 2016  (didn't use the credit pool) to make a reservation for 2015.  If I cancel the 2015 reservation that I made, would my points go back for my allotment of 2016 regular use year points?  

Or would points stay in 2015 since I brought them over before the change?  I would cancel after the new rule - would this extend my points to use for 2016  (now that I don't need the 2015 reservation) and these were the borrowed 2016 points to begin with?

I am confused. ..?

Cynthia T.


----------



## ronparise

scootr5 said:


> I could see how it could be interpreted that way as well, since the language is slightly ambiguous. BG was at least very clear in their explanation.



It isnt a question of how we might understand the rule, or even how the guy that wrote the rule understands it, The question is how the it guy writes the code. Once we understand what the computer does when we make our reservations we will know what we can get away with


----------



## Vacationfuntips

I am thinking that this new rule will make planning more complicated, that is if I DO want to deposit into RCI and I have an odd amount of points in my account at the end of the use year.  I might have to purchase the difference?  I never had to do that before.   
Cynthia T.


----------



## paxsarah

bnoble said:


> I'll miss *the ability to convert pool credits into something that can be deposited to RCI*, and the ability to borrow into express, cancel, and rebook into Standard.  But, on balance, this does make things simpler, and the ability to keep credits in the credit pool might provide some value.
> 
> Edited to add: thinking about this more, you can still accomplish borrow-for-standard by credit pooling the required future year's points, so the flexibility is still there, it just costs a few bucks to do.



Thanks for pointing this out. I just dodged a bullet! (and by bullet, I mean getting stuck with June 2016-expiring pool credits that I had intended to deposit to RCI)


----------



## Bigrob

Vacationfuntips said:


> I borrowed points from 2016  (didn't use the credit pool) to make a reservation for 2015.  If I cancel the 2015 reservation that I made, would my points go back for my allotment of 2016 regular use year points?
> 
> Or would points stay in 2015 since I brought them over before the change?  I would cancel after the new rule - would this extend my points to use for 2016  (now that I don't need the 2015 reservation) and these were the borrowed 2016 points to begin with?
> 
> I am confused. ..?
> 
> Cynthia T.



Cynthia, the way it was explained to me is that there is a migration overnight on August 3rd. The points sitting there as cancelled points will be converted to regular use year points with no associated contract, for the use year in which they are sitting. If you cancel before Aug 4th, they will be sitting as cancelled points that will get converted to 2015 regular use year points. If you cancel after Aug 4th, I'm not sure what will happen since you booked the reservation before the change, but would have cancelled it after the change. If you make that reservation after August 4th and cancel it, the points will definitely go back to 2016.

My guess is that if the reservation you made was made with regular use year points from 2016, that they will go back to 2016 if you cancel after August 4. This is because the system would still know what contract the points came from. Once the points are cancelled points, there is no traceability back to a contract.


----------



## am1

Sandy VDH said:


> Limit bookings to 10% of inventory, does not impact me at all.
> 
> Happy with the change, as it is written.



What about at a resort that only has two wyndham units?


----------



## am1

Better do all the cancellations in the same day or moment as more than 10 arp reservations are fine but they will still count towards the 10 reservation limit if any new reservations are made inside 10 months to check in



CO skier said:


> You are onto something with the ARP exemption.
> 
> 10 one bedrooms and 10 3-or-4 bedroom Presidentials may be reserved during ARP (20 units for the same nights).
> 
> At 60 days, cancel and rebook the 1 bedroom for 50%, then cancel a Presidential and upgrade.
> 
> There are now 18 ARP units and 1 unit subject to the new rule.
> 
> Repeat this 10 times (unlikely, but theoretically just as possible as before the new rule), and the result is 10 Presidentials booked for 50% of the 1 bedroom price plus 10 1 bedroom units back in inventory -- exactly as what can occur now.  Here, again, I do not see how availability was improved under the rule.


----------



## Ty1on

am1 said:


> What about at a resort that only has two wyndham units?



I'm sure the limit would be 1 there LOL


----------



## Bigrob

For some reason, I am reminded of this thread and wondering if the OP was a "test case" for Wyndham applying this policy.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225157


----------



## Ty1on

Bigrob said:


> For some reason, I am reminded of this thread and wondering if the OP was a "test case" for Wyndham applying this policy.
> 
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225157



<common non-profane exclamatory redacted in honor of the TUG Religious Police> what a painful thread that was to read.  Do you think a shill would actually take the time to brew up that entire story, type long, detailed updates, and report after some time that it was resolved?  I'm not sure their attention span would last long enough to keep it up.


----------



## Bigrob

am1 said:


> Better do all the cancellations in the same day or moment as more than 10 arp reservations are fine but they will still count towards the 10 reservation limit if any new reservations are made inside 10 months to check in



I don't think it will be "moments" as I suspect it will at least require an overnight batch run. But the point is... if you only did one (cancel/rebook/upgrade) and left the other 18 to do for the next day, the one booked in the standard reservation window (reservation 19) is at risk of cancellation. And of course it is the one you most want to keep. So the point is right... you would need to do all of the cancel/rebooks on the same day.

At some point, I'm hoping someone will ask for (and subsequently post) the 20% inventory by location. What I would hate to have happen is to be over the NUL and not know it, because the resort only has 24 units for example. 

For "resorts" with many different HOAs, I wonder if the NUL applies to the "resort" in aggregate, or to each of the individual neighborhoods? If you upgrade, you may not know you're going to a different neighborhood for which you might go over the NUL (thinking about locations such as Smuggs).


----------



## Ty1on

Bigrob said:


> I don't think it will be "moments" as I suspect it will at least require an overnight batch run. But the point is... if you only did one (cancel/rebook/upgrade) and left the other 18 to do for the next day, the one booked in the standard reservation window (reservation 19) is at risk of cancellation. And of course it is the one you most want to keep. So the point is right... you would need to do all of the cancel/rebooks on the same day.
> 
> At some point, I'm hoping someone will ask for (and subsequently post) the 20% inventory by location. What I would hate to have happen is to be over the NUL and not know it, because the resort only has 24 units for example.
> 
> For "resorts" with many different HOAs, I wonder if the NUL applies to the "resort" in aggregate, or to each of the individual neighborhoods? If you upgrade, you may not know you're going to a different neighborhood for which you might go over the NUL (thinking about locations such as Smuggs).



It could be monks with 10-keys tabulating each member's points usage


----------



## antjmar

CO skier said:


> None of my UDI deeds mention anything about Advance Reservation Priority.


No but they do say you own a small percentage of the total points at that resort. It would be unlawful to forbid you to reserve what you own on a deed.  Just my opinion..


----------



## Bigrob

Ty1on said:


> <common non-profane exclamatory redacted in honor of the TUG Religious Police> what a painful thread that was to read.  Do you think a shill would actually take the time to brew up that entire story, type long, detailed updates, and report after some time that it was resolved?  I'm not sure their attention span would last long enough to keep it up.



No idea. I and several others were pretty convinced early on the story was manufactured. But I could not come up with a plausible rationale for someone to craft such a story.


----------



## Ty1on

Bigrob said:


> No idea. I and several others were pretty convinced early on the story was manufactured. But I could not come up with a plausible rationale for someone to craft such a story.



I'd say a very intelligent and persistent troll, perhaps, but based on her storyline, I don't see the endgame for Wyndham.


----------



## Ty1on

Bigrob said:


> No idea. I and several others were pretty convinced early on the story was manufactured. But I could not come up with a plausible rationale for someone to craft such a story.



Interesting....I just picked up on the fact that the "Owner advocate" who "used to work for them" has all of five posts on Tug.


----------



## CO skier

am1 said:


> Better do all the cancellations in the same day or moment as more than 10 arp reservations are fine but they will still count towards the 10 reservation limit if any new reservations are made inside 10 months to check in



That's not the way the new rule it written:

"The Nightly Unit Limit applies to new Standard and Express reservations booked after October 1, 2015 (ARP reservations are not limited)."

ARP reservation are unlimited, so the new 10 limit does not apply to them, and they do not count towards other reservations that do fall under the new rule, because they are not Standard or Express reservations.

Someone could have 60 ARP reservations and 10 cancelled-rebooked or regular reservations all for the same nights and still be in compliance with the new rule.  Nothing gets cancelled, days, weeks, or months later.

How the new rule is written and how it is interpreted by whoever is responsible for cancelling out-of-compliance reservations can be debated until someone actually tries it.


----------



## am1

CO skier said:


> That's not the way the new rule it written:
> 
> "The Nightly Unit Limit applies to new Standard and Express reservations booked after October 1, 2015 (ARP reservations are not limited)."
> 
> ARP reservation are unlimited, so the new 10 limit does not apply to them, and they do not count towards other reservations that do fall under the new rule, because they are not Standard or Express reservations.
> 
> Someone could have 60 ARP reservations and 10 cancelled-rebooked or regular reservations all for the same nights and still be in compliance with the new rule.  Nothing gets cancelled, days, weeks, or months later.
> 
> How the new rule is written and how it is interpreted by whoever is responsible for cancelling out-of-compliance reservations can be debated until someone actually tries it.



I was told the 10 or more arp reservations would count as 10.  Any more booked inside 10 months would be in violation.


----------



## Ty1on

am1 said:


> I was told the 10 or more arp reservations would count as 10.  Any more booked inside 10 months would be in violation.



Who told you that?


----------



## am1

Ty1on said:


> Who told you that?



OC Rep tonight


----------



## CO skier

CO skier said:


> None of my UDI deeds mention anything about Advance Reservation Priority.





antjmar said:


> No but they do say you own a small percentage of the total points at that resort. It would be unlawful to forbid you to reserve what you own on a deed.  Just my opinion..



You are correct of course, but it completely missed the point that Advance Reservation Priority (ARP) is an administrative rule, not a deeded right.

If Wyndham has the option to limit reservations to 10 in the Standard or Express reservations, they could do the same for ARP reservations.  There is no deeded right protecting this.  If the objective of the new administrative rule is to somehow increase availability, exempting ARP reservations from the 10 unit/20% rule runs completely contrary to this goal.


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> That's not the way the new rule it written:
> 
> "The Nightly Unit Limit applies to new Standard and Express reservations booked after October 1, 2015 (ARP reservations are not limited)."
> 
> ARP reservation are unlimited, so the new 10 limit does not apply to them, and they do not count towards other reservations that do fall under the new rule, because they are not Standard or Express reservations.
> 
> Someone could have 60 ARP reservations and 10 cancelled-rebooked or regular reservations all for the same nights and still be in compliance with the new rule.  Nothing gets cancelled, days, weeks, or months later.
> 
> How the new rule is written and how it is interpreted by whoever is responsible for cancelling out-of-compliance reservations can be debated until someone actually tries it.



I agree, we can debate what the meaning is but we won't know for certain until it's applied. However, my interpretation is the same as Adam's. You can have as many ARP reservations as you have points and ARP for; but that doesn't mean they wouldn't count as reservations and that you can have 10 additional standard/express reservations, only that you are not limited to 10 if you have enough points and ARP for more.


----------



## CO skier

am1 said:


> I was told the 10 or more arp reservations would count as 10.  Any more booked inside 10 months would be in violation.



Try calling a few more times, and you will probably get a few differing answers.

Once the new rule is in effect, cancellations will probably be a manual process.  Cancellations will depend on how the someone doing the cancelling interprets the rule.

I only know what is written, and what is written says "ARP reservations are not limited".  That seems very clear to me.


----------



## Ty1on

CO skier said:


> Try calling a few more times, and you will probably get a few differing answers.
> 
> Once the new rule is in effect, cancellations will probably be a manual process.  Cancellations will depend on how the someone doing the cancelling interprets the rule.
> 
> I only know what is written, and what is written says "ARP reservations are not limited".  That seems very clear to me.



Isn't that currently the process with overlaps?


----------



## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> I agree, we can debate what the meaning is but we won't know for certain until it's applied. However, my interpretation is the same as Adam's. You can have as many ARP reservations as you have points and ARP for; but that doesn't mean they wouldn't count as reservations and that you can have 10 additional standard/express reservations, only that you are not limited to 10 if you have enough points and ARP for more.



Not to belabor the point, but where does the new rule state, the "Nightly Use Limit applies to, or even includes, ARP reservations" in any way?


----------



## Ty1on

CO skier said:


> You are correct of course, but it completely missed the point that Advance Reservation Priority (ARP) is an administrative rule, not a deeded right.
> 
> If Wyndham has the option to limit reservations to 10 in the Standard or Express reservations, they could do the same for ARP reservations.  There is no deeded right protecting this.  If the objective of the new administrative rule is to somehow increase availability, exempting ARP reservations from the 10 unit/20% rule runs completely contrary to this goal.



I'm not sure about that.  It seems to me, if you own deeded points at home resorts, you own the right to first come first serve ARP reservations, no matter how many points you own.  I think this may be why they make the distinction.  If you paid for a million points, retail or resale, you should be able to book those rooms all at once if you want.  Once ARP has passed, you have forfeited your exclusive rights to those reservations IMO.

I do still think this is all about thwarting the cancel/rebook game, not disabling the megapoints holders.


----------



## CO skier

Ty1on said:


> Isn't that currently the process with overlaps?



Only within 15 days of arrival.  The new rule does not change this.  As written (and it is beginning to seem no one knows what is written really means), someone could have 60 ARP reservations and 10 Standard or Express reservations up until 15 days, just like today.


----------



## CO skier

Ty1on said:


> I'm not sure about that.  It seems to me, if you own deeded points at home resorts, you own the right to first come first serve ARP reservations, no matter how many points you own.  I think this may be why they make the distinction.  If you paid for a million points, retail or resale, you should be able to book those rooms all at once if you want.  Once ARP has passed, you have forfeited your exclusive rights to those reservations IMO.



What you say is true.  Under the new rule only a maximum of 10 of the ARP reservations may now be converted to Standard, Express, or VIP discount reservations for the same nights, instead of all of them.  The remaining ARP reservations must stay as ARP reservations or be cancelled.


----------



## Ty1on

CO skier said:


> Only within 15 days of arrival.  The new rule does not change this.  As written (and it is beginning to seem no one knows what is written really means), someone could have 60 ARP reservations and 10 Standard or Express reservations up until 15 days, just like today.



I'm sure that they will soon issue formal policies that remove the vagueness of their email blast.  I hope?


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> Not to belabor the point, but where does the new rule state, the "Nightly Use Limit applies to, or even includes, ARP reservations" in any way?



To quote the entire paragraph from the email:

"In an effort to increase availability, there will be a Nightly Unit Limit on the number of units an owner can book at a single resort of 10 units, or 20 percent of the inventory at that resort affiliated with CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, whichever is less. Going forward, the Nightly Unit Limit should increase availability for more owners at the most sought after resorts. The Nightly Unit Limit applies to new Standard and Express reservations booked after October 1, 2015 (ARP reservations are not limited). This will not impact existing reservations made prior to October 1, unless the reservation is cancelled and, after October 1, a new reservation is confirmed."

There is no question that ARP reservations are not limited. What is in question is whether they "count" against the reservation limit. The number of units an owner can book is limited to 10 units or 20%. If you already have 20 or 60 units reserved from ARP, where are you reading that you can have 10 additional reservations booked during the standard reservation window? It doesn't say they don't count, just that you aren't limited to 10 ARP reservations.

I'd like to think you're right. But I suspect you are not. I do agree with you that it is quite likely you could get a different answer from each VC you ask.


----------



## Bigrob

Ty1on said:


> I'm sure that they will soon issue formal policies that remove the vagueness of their email blast.  I hope?



I'm pretty sure that will not happen. The wording may be deliberately vague and ambiguous as they may be leaving some room to "adjust" if the results they want are not achieved. I asked about whether they were going to be issuing FAQ's and the answer was... probably not, because the vast majority of owners would simply be confused by the type of clarification and nuance being discussed here. Let's face it... the typical owner is not concerned with whether they can make 10 standard reservations for the same timeframe as their 20 existing ARP reservations.

My guess is that for a large percentage of owners, the reaction is... "Hey, cool... no more cancelled points! And maybe we'll see availability we didn't before!" and be done with it.


----------



## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> There is no question that ARP reservations are not limited. What is in question is whether they "count" against the reservation limit. The number of units an owner can book is limited to 10 units or 20%. If you already have 20 or 60 units reserved from ARP, where are you reading that you can have 10 additional reservations booked during the standard reservation window? It doesn't say they don't count, just that you aren't limited to 10 ARP reservations.



"The Nightly Unit Limit applies to new Standard and Express reservations booked after October 1, 2015"

It is clearly stated that the 10 unit/20% rule applies *only *to Standard and Express reservations.

So why would ARP reservations, which are not Standard or Express reservations, count towards the Nightly Use Limit?


----------



## CO skier

I think that ARP reservations should apply to the Nightly Use Limit, and that may be the intent, but that is not how the new rule is worded in the email in the original post.


----------



## am1

CO skier said:


> I think that ARP reservations should apply to the Nightly Use Limit, and that may be the intent, but that is not how the new rule is worded in the email in the original post.



That is why I asked and reported what I was told.


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> "The Nightly Unit Limit applies to new Standard and Express reservations booked after October 1, 2015"
> 
> It is clearly stated that the 10 unit/20% rule applies *only *to Standard and Express reservations.
> 
> So why would ARP reservations, which are not Standard or Express reservations, count towards the Nightly Use Limit?



Asked and answered. The language neither expressly states that the ARP reservations would count against the limit, or that they would not. You interpret, because the ARP reservations are not limited to 10 and are not standard or express reservations, that they don't count against your total allotment of 10 units or 20%. I interpret, because there is a limit of 10 units or 20% excepting in the case of ARP reservations which are not limited, that there is nothing here to assure that you can make 10 additional reservations for the same time frame at the same resort in the standard and express reservation window because  you haven't made any standard or express reservations, only ARP reservations. They are still reservations at the resort at the same time as the reservation you are trying to add... which would be the 21st, or 61st, or even the 11th reservation being made for the same time at the same resort and it would be a reservation that is being made in the standard or express reservation window. It therefore qualifies as a reservation that would be automatically cancelled.

It has been my experience that if something is not clear, the common sense and more restrictive interpretation is generally correct, as applied by Wyndham. But I'm all for someone experimenting and would be happy to be proven wrong.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> What you say is true.  Under the new rule only a maximum of 10 of the ARP reservations may now be converted to Standard, Express, or VIP discount reservations for the same nights, instead of all of them.  The remaining ARP reservations must stay as ARP reservations or be cancelled.



I think this is exactly right,  unless of course someone has more than one Platinum account


----------



## uscav8r

ronparise said:


> I think this is exactly right,  unless of course someone has more than one Platinum account



Who in their right mind would do such a thing? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ronparise

uscav8r said:


> Who in their right mind would do such a thing?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I sure wouldnt know


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> I think this is exactly right,  unless of course someone has more than one Platinum account



The bots, if they exist, would never allow it.


----------



## traveldaddy

*Need advice re: new wyndham cancellation policy*

I hope everyone is aware of the new Wyndham policy re: cancelled points return to regular use points. Of course, I _still_ have not received the e-mail from Wyndham (and yes, I checked my spam filter btw). 

So, I am one of those folks that has multiple use years in my account, and I was going to try to roll forward some points to manage what I wanted. Most of my points are Jan use year start, but one contract is April use year. I had points from the April 1/15 to March 30/16 that I used to book a Crestview 2Bd for Feb 12-15, 2016 (I think this is Presidents day in US, but Family day weekend for some Canucks for sure). I don't think we can use that week.

The original plan was to wait until early Jan/16 and cancel, hoping the points would drop into Jan use year and I would have until Dec to use - which would not be a problem. However, with the new policy, if I wait to cancel, it will go back into the original use year, and I don't have time and/or there is very little available where we want to go since I will have to use the points by March 30. I already have another Xmas and a March break vacation scheduled (who da thunk I would be complaining about too many vacays?!?  ) 

Any suggestions on how to avoid losing the points? I don't have the new policy in writing, so I am a little uncertain as to how it works (I think like everyone else). It is 107K points, which for me is pretty significant. I could just rent the weekend, as it is pretty high demand, but I am not a "renter" - I have done it a total of once, so I get the process and am capable, but it has a high PITA factor and is not my first choice as a solution. I can't credit pool now, as it is too late. What else can I do with the new policy? When do I have to do it? (i.e. pre Aug 3rd or post?)

Any suggestions are appreciated. 

Craig

P.S. If I figure something out, and plan on canceling, I will post separately to coordinate in case someone on TUG wants the reservation. I did this before with a high demand reservation and the TUGer was appreciative. Trying to Pay it forward.


----------



## CO skier

traveldaddy said:


> I hope everyone is aware of the new Wyndham policy re: cancelled points return to regular use points. Of course, I _still_ have not received the e-mail from Wyndham (and yes, I checked my spam filter btw).
> 
> So, I am one of those folks that has multiple use years in my account, and I was going to try to roll forward some points to manage what I wanted. Most of my points are Jan use year start, but one contract is April use year. I had points from the April 1/15 to March 30/16 that I used to book a Crestview 2Bd for Feb 12-15, 2016 (I think this is Presidents day in US, but Family day weekend for some Canucks for sure). I don't think we can use that week.
> 
> The original plan was to wait until early Jan/16 and cancel, hoping the points would drop into Jan use year and I would have until Dec to use - which would not be a problem. However, with the new policy, if I wait to cancel, it will go back into the original use year, and I don't have time and/or there is very little available where we want to go since I will have to use the points by March 30. I already have another Xmas and a March break vacation scheduled (who da thunk I would be complaining about too many vacays?!?  )
> 
> Any suggestions on how to avoid losing the points? I don't have the new policy in writing, so I am a little uncertain as to how it works (I think like everyone else). It is 107K points, which for me is pretty significant. I could just rent the weekend, as it is pretty high demand, but I am not a "renter" - I have done it a total of once, so I get the process and am capable, but it has a high PITA factor and is not my first choice as a solution. I can't credit pool now, as it is too late. What else can I do with the new policy? When do I have to do it? (i.e. pre Aug 3rd or post?)
> 
> Any suggestions are appreciated.
> 
> Craig
> 
> P.S. If I figure something out, and plan on canceling, I will post separately to coordinate in case someone on TUG wants the reservation. I did this before with a high demand reservation and the TUGer was appreciative. Trying to Pay it forward.



I do not have multiple use years, but as I understand the process, why would you have to wait until Jan 2016 to cancel the reservation?

If you cancel the reservation today or before August 2nd (just to be safe), wouldn't the cancelled points for a 2016 reservation appear in your Jan - Dec 2016 Use Year no matter which use year the points originated (isn't that the whole idea of rolling points forward)?  Then the cancelled points become Regular 2016 Use Year Points not associated with any particular contract after the change on August 4, and they then expire Dec, 2016?


----------



## Ty1on

CO skier said:


> I do not have multiple use years, but as I understand the process, why would you have to wait until Jan 2016 to cancel the reservation?
> 
> If you cancel the reservation today or before August 2nd (just to be safe), wouldn't the cancelled points for a 2016 reservation appear in your Jan - Dec 2016 Use Year no matter which use year the points originated (isn't that the whole idea of rolling points forward)?  Then the cancelled points become Regular 2016 Use Year Points not associated with any particular contract after the change on August 4, and they then expire Dec, 2016?



Give it a shot and let everyone know


----------



## CO skier

Am I the only one who does not particularly like having a minion stuck to the bottom of my shoe?


----------



## traveldaddy

CO skier said:


> I do not have multiple use years, but as I understand the process, why would you have to wait until Jan 2016 to cancel the reservation?
> 
> If you cancel the reservation today or before August 2nd (just to be safe), wouldn't the cancelled points for a 2016 reservation appear in your Jan - Dec 2016 Use Year no matter which use year the points originated (isn't that the whole idea of rolling points forward)?  Then the cancelled points become Regular 2016 Use Year Points not associated with any particular contract after the change on August 4, and they then expire Dec, 2016?



I am still a newbie. I understood I had to wait until the Jan 2016 use year started, or they would fall into the April 1/15 to March/16 use year (which does not roll them forward, as that is where they came from). I certainly may be mistaken, as I have never done it before.

Down to my last free RT for this year and I need to book something in Sept at the 10 month mark for next summer, so if I muck it up, it will cost me in buying another RT if I have to try to rebook another reservation. So want to be sure I get it right - at least as sure as I can be. System is kinda complicated and with the rule changes, well, it is even more so.


----------



## Bigrob

traveldaddy said:


> I am still a newbie. I understood I had to wait until the Jan 2016 use year started, or they would fall into the April 1/15 to March/16 use year (which does not roll them forward, as that is where they came from). I certainly may be mistaken, as I have never done it before.
> 
> Down to my last free RT for this year and I need to book something in Sept at the 10 month mark for next summer, so if I muck it up, it will cost me in buying another RT if I have to try to rebook another reservation. So want to be sure I get it right - at least as sure as I can be. System is kinda complicated and with the rule changes, well, it is even more so.



The way it has "usually" worked for me is that when I cancel a reservation, the points return to the use year with the latest expiration. But it doesn't always work that way... sometimes the points are returned to an earlier use year IF the later use year has no points remaining, BUT the earlier use year does. (If none of them have points they go to the latest use year again). 

My guess is that would not apply in your case - you probably have points remaining in your jan-dec 2016 use year, but perhaps not in your apr-mar 2016 use year. If that's the case you should be fine, the points should become cancelled points in the Jan-Dec 2016 use year. If you cancel before the cutover, they should become regular use points without an associated contract.

My guess is, there will be a degree of flexibility on a one-time basis if they don't go where you want them to.


----------



## traveldaddy

Bigrob said:


> The way it has "usually" worked for me is that when I cancel a reservation, the points return to the use year with the latest expiration. But it doesn't always work that way... sometimes the points are returned to an earlier use year IF the later use year has no points remaining, BUT the earlier use year does. (If none of them have points they go to the latest use year again).
> 
> My guess is that would not apply in your case - you probably have points remaining in your jan-dec 2016 use year, but perhaps not in your apr-mar 2016 use year. If that's the case you should be fine, the points should become cancelled points in the Jan-Dec 2016 use year. If you cancel before the cutover, they should become regular use points without an associated contract.
> 
> My guess is, there will be a degree of flexibility on a one-time basis if they don't go where you want them to.



Okay, I think I understand. Basically, do it before the deadline and I 'should' get the points into the Jan 2016 use year like I want, but some risk it falls into Apr-Mar/16 use year. 

Backup would be to wait and book something if I can find it. 

Then last resort is to push into RCI? or would I have to book something after the deadline, then cancel it so it becomes 'regular' points and then put those in RCI?

Last question, what is the TUG etiquette for canceling a high demand reservation? new post and first person to PM, arrange a time? did this before, but not sure what the standard is.

Thanks for the help, it is greatly appreciated.

Bigrob - you are correct. Checked my point status and I have Jan2016 use year points, Apr/16-Mar/17 points, but nothing for Apr/15-Mar/16. So it seems like it should work based on your response.


----------



## antjmar

traveldaddy said:


> The original plan was to wait until early Jan/16 and cancel, hoping the points would drop into Jan use year and I would have until Dec to use - which would not be a problem. However, with the new policy, if I wait to cancel, it will go back into the original use year, and I don't have time and/or there is very little available where we want to go since I will have to use the points by March 30. I already have another Xmas and a March break vacation scheduled (who da thunk I would be complaining about too many vacays?!?  )
> 
> Any suggestions on how to avoid losing the points? I don't have the new policy in writing, so I am a little uncertain as to how it works (I think like everyone else). It is 107K points, which for me is pretty significant. I could just rent the weekend, as it is pretty high demand, but I am not a "renter" - I have done it a total of once, so I get the process and am capable, but it has a high PITA factor and is not my first choice as a solution. I can't credit pool now, as it is too late. What else can I do with the new policy? When do I have to do it? (i.e. pre Aug 3rd or post?)
> 
> Any suggestions are appreciated.
> 
> Craig



I would wait till Jan try to cancel see what happens. If it doesn't go the way you'd like call and ask to get the contracts realigned. 
It appears that the trick is gone so no need to have 2 use years...if all your points are 12/31 use year you'll have all year to use them.


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## traveldaddy

Okay, the newbie is officially back in a confused state as to what to do......


----------



## CO skier

antjmar said:


> I would wait till Jan try to cancel see what happens.



Do not wait until January, or the cancelled points will definitely revert to your March 30, 2016 Use Year End Date.  You need to decide what to do by August 2nd.


ETA:  And DEFINITELY do not call to have your contract aligned, unless you are absolutely certain that is what you want to do.


----------



## antjmar

CO skier said:


> Do not wait until January, or the cancelled points will definitely revert to your March 30, 2016 Use Year End Date.  You need to decide what to do by August 2nd.



No one can be sure where the points will go,  The use trick may still work...
and Wyndham will still adjust use year to 12/31 if requested.


----------



## Ty1on

CO skier said:


> Am I the only one who does not particularly like having a minion stuck to the bottom of my shoe?



Meaning???


----------



## antjmar

CO skier said:


> ETA:  And DEFINITELY do not call to have your contract aligned, unless you are absolutely certain that is what you want to do.


Why?

you seem to think the use trick is gone...


----------



## CO skier

traveldaddy said:


> Okay, the newbie is officially back in a confused state as to what to do......



If all your April, 2015 - March 30, 2016 points are gone, cancel your Feb. 2016 reservation now.  Cancellations do not cost a RT.  The cancelled points should appear in your Jan. - Dec. 2016 Use Year as cancelled points.  If they do, you all set for a Dec. 2016 expiration date even after the changes on August 4th.   Use your new RT after Jan. 1, 2016 to put the cancelled points into new reservations.

If the cancelled points return to your Apr. - Mar, 2016 Use Year, repost here and you are sure to receive many suggestions on how to call in to correct the mistake.


----------



## CO skier

antjmar said:


> Why?
> 
> you seem to think the use trick is gone...



Some people like having overlapping Use Years for reasons that are unrelated to rolling points forward or the new rule.


----------



## antjmar

CO skier said:


> Some people like having overlapping Use Years for reasons that are unrelated to rolling points forward or the new rule.


OK thanks.


----------



## CO skier

antjmar said:


> OK thanks.



 Sure, no problem.

Just one example is July 1 Use Years that overlap the usual Jan. 1 Use Years.

This spreads a portion of the total points over 18 months instead of all-in-12 months, and it still allows all the points to be used together for summer or end-of-year holidays.


----------



## Vacationfuntips

CO skier said:


> Sure, no problem.
> 
> Just one example is July 1 Use Years that overlap the usual Jan. 1 Use Years.
> 
> This spreads a portion of the total points over 18 months instead of all-in-12 months, and it still allows all the points to be used together for summer or end-of-year holidays.



I used to have the July and January use years.  It was the greatest  - I always had points, and canceled reservations rolled forward...This was until Wyndham realigned my contracts to make them all January use years.  This happened when I added another contract to my account.  Anyone who adds on, should realize that this could happen to them.  

Things are always changing with Wyndham!

I am so curious to know (with the new rule)  if the canceled points that I borrowed will move back to the 2016 use year or stay in 2015  when I cancel my reservation?  These points were canceled and re-booked points...  Guess I am going to find out very soon?  I will post how it turns out.

Cynthia T.


----------



## Bigrob

Vacationfuntips said:


> I used to have the July and January use years.  It was the greatest  - I always had points, and canceled reservations rolled forward...This was until Wyndham realigned my contracts to make them all January use years.  This happened when I added another contract to my account.  Anyone who adds on, should realize that this could happen to them.
> 
> Things are always changing with Wyndham!
> 
> I am so curious to know (with the new rule)  if the canceled points that I borrowed will move back to the 2016 use year or stay in 2015  when I cancel my reservation?  These points were canceled and re-booked points...  Guess I am going to find out very soon?  I will post how it turns out.
> 
> Cynthia T.



If they are canceled and rebooked points sitting in a reservation, they don't have a contract to go back to at this point, so they will likely go back as regular use year points in the year of the reservation you've made. If they are sitting as canceled points already, they should become regular points in the use year they are currently sitting as cancelled points in.

This is going to be interesting. I can envision scenarios where there is no way to identify what points were used for existing reservations and after Aug 3rd, if those reservations are cancelled the points will be returned as points associated to the "predominant contract" in the use year of the reservation. That could be a problem for pre-existing reservations made with 2016 cancelled points.

Thinking about this, all the points sitting in current reservations through the end of this year; when those reservations are cancelled, those points will come back as regular points in the use year of the predominant contract, which for most will be 2015 points with an expiration in December. That may lead to (in the case of platinum owners) multiple credit pool fees; and in the case of all owners, many more points being deposited to RCI than usual.

In case you are wondering which is the predominant contract; I believe that when an account is first set up, it is set up as the use year of the contract that first goes in. So at the account level there is a use-year indicator (I don't believe there's anyplace for us to see this directly). The predominant contract is the largest point contract with that use year. Given that, I can see a flurry of activity to try to shape it that the predominant contract is identified as one where ARP is valuable. If what I was told is true, all of the points that don't currently  have contract identifiers will be reset to the predominant contract. So if one were to happen to have an LBM April use year as a predominant contract, and one were to happen to have 10s of millions of unassociated points tied up in the right reservations; then when those reservations are cancelled, the unassociated points should become regular use year points in the April 2016-Mar 2017 use year associated to the LBM contract. Hypothetically enabling one to use millions of points for ARP reservations for Mardi Gras in 2017. And of course there are no limits to ARP reservations.

Not sure this is going to INCREASE availability for high demand resorts after all...


----------



## ronparise

so Eric
you have lost me completely


I know when I make a reservation the points are taken from a certain contract. Are you saying that under the new policy, if I cancel that reservation the cancelled points (now regular use year points, stay associated with that same contract?

and if that contract has been sold, the "cancelled" points because they no longer can be associated with the original contract (because its been sold) will now be associated with something you are calling the "predominant contract"

and the predominant contract is the oldest one in the account... and can then be used for ARP

Is this all guesswork on your part or is this what you were told when you made that call?


My concern has been that the points from a cancelled reservation would follow the contract. So in the case of a sale, the cancelled points would go to the new owner.   Is that even a remote possibility?


and to your point    "Not sure this is going to INCREASE availability for high demand resorts after all".  Im sure its not going to increase availability.  Continuing with your La Bell Maison example; there are only 140 units in that building, and for Mardi Gras they are currently all gone in the first few minutes at 13 months.  It doesnt matter whether 7 owners get 20 each or 14 owners get 5 each and 70 owners get 1 each or whatever combination you come up with...  At 8:15 13 months ahead of the friday before mardi gras tuesday they will all be gone, and the other 500000 club wyndham owners will be shut out


----------



## vacationhopeful

My largest contract is RV .... ha, ha, ha .... for my use year. I could have a very good Xmas and NYE rental crop.

Planning is oh so important with Wyndham. Must get busy.


----------



## Bigrob

ronparise said:


> so Eric
> you have lost me completely
> 
> 
> I know when I make a reservation the points are taken from a certain contract. Are you saying that under the new policy, if I cancel that reservation the cancelled points (now regular use year points, stay associated with that same contract?



Yes, that is what I was told. For a reservation made from regular use year points that are associated to a contract after August 4th; the points will go back to the contract. If they were in a credit pool, they will go back to the same credit pool. If the contract was transferred out before the reservation was cancelled, the points stay in your account (do NOT transfer to buyer after the fact) and because that contract is no longer in your account, but the point have to be associated to a contract after August 4th, they will be associated to the "predominant" contract. Also, what I was told is that the predominant contract is the largest contract of the same use year as the account. However, I believe this is just what the VC's were told, and we won't know for a fact that's how it works until it's rolled out, because the IT guys in India that coded it might not have got all the nuances of the business rules.



ronparise said:


> and if that contract has been sold, the "cancelled" points because they no longer can be associated with the original contract (because its been sold) will now be associated with something you are calling the "predominant contract"
> 
> and the predominant contract is the oldest one in the account... and can then be used for ARP
> 
> Is this all guesswork on your part or is this what you were told when you made that call?



All of this is what I was told when I called, and I do think I had an experienced and well-informed VC. I may call in today to see if they can tell me what the predominant contract is in my account. The only part that was not specifically stated is whether it's purely the largest contract, or the largest contract of the same use year as the account. (Note, it is the largest, not the oldest; the oldest is what determined the use year of the account to begin with, but according to the VC, that is not what determines the predominant contract.)



ronparise said:


> My concern has been that the points from a cancelled reservation would follow the contract. So in the case of a sale, the cancelled points would go to the new owner.   Is that even a remote possibility?



I guess this depends on how the system was programmed. If the first factor in returning points is the associated CONTRACT number, then it may be a possibility (and likely a nightmare for some of us). If the first factor in returning points is the originating MEMBER number, then it should not occur. But given some of the other mysterious activities that take place within the system, I wouldn't rule it out completely as a possible "gotcha". What I was told is that the points would be returned to the same account and re-associated to the predominant contract. But you can bet I'll be watching it closely post transition.



ronparise said:


> and to your point    "Not sure this is going to INCREASE availability for high demand resorts after all".  Im sure its not going to increase availability.  Continuing with your La Bell Maison example; there are only 140 units in that building, and for Mardi Gras they are currently all gone in the first few minutes at 13 months.  It doesnt matter whether 7 owners get 20 each or 14 owners get 5 each and 70 owners get 1 each or whatever combination you come up with...  At 8:15 13 months ahead of the friday before mardi gras tuesday they will all be gone, and the other 500000 club wyndham owners will be shut out



Correct. But to VacationHopeful's point, she might end up with a 1-year window of additional ARP at Royal Vista for high-demand reservations; others may end up with a 1-year increase for high-demand reservations at other resorts, and all with ARP that is not subject to the new limits. This may make a difference at locations that have not traditionally been completely sold out during the ARP period.


----------



## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> This is going to be interesting. I can envision scenarios where there is no way to identify what points were used for existing reservations and after Aug 3rd, if those reservations are cancelled the points will be returned as points associated to the "predominant contract" in the use year of the reservation. That could be a problem for pre-existing reservations made with 2016 cancelled points.



Another option would be that the "blank" contract line in an account replaces the "Cancelled Points" line after August 4th, and any cancelled points going forward that do not have an associated contract are consolidated in the "blank" contract.

That would be the simplest solution and not create any "false ARP", but that probably does not mean much with Wyndham.



Bigrob said:


> So, I did call in to check on this, and got some interesting clarifications:
> 
> 1. There is an "transition period" that will occur between Aug 3/4 - where all of your current cancelled points will become regular use year points. These points will NOT be associated to a contract... the contract line will be "blank".


----------



## Vacationfuntips

Thanks Eric, What I am hoping for and what will happen is still unknown to me?  I am not expecting my points to go back to 2016 as regular use year points, but I will "test" the system.  I think my points will remain in 2015.  With the changes coming, I don't think borrowing points for other than Express reservations will work?   

When I purchased my 1st Wyndham points contract it was a June/July use year.  My last Wyndham purchase, was a smaller points contract that Wyndham used to change all of my contracts use years to Dec/Jan.

 I am okay with it, and have adjusted my vacation planning - but I never requested Wyndham to do this or to realign everything because of it.  

Changes are always about "improving" the Club Wyndham product and experience.  Let's see how the new changes turn out?  

Cynthia T.


----------



## Bigrob

Vacationfuntips said:


> Thanks Eric, What I am hoping for and what will happen is still unknown to me?  I am not expecting my points to go back to 2016 as regular use year points, but I will "test" the system.  I think my points will remain in 2015.  With the changes coming, I don't think borrowing points for other than Express reservations will work?
> 
> When I purchased my 1st Wyndham points contract it was a June/July use year.  My last Wyndham purchase, was a smaller points contract that Wyndham used to change all of my contracts use years to Dec/Jan.
> 
> I am okay with it, and have adjusted my vacation planning - but I never requested Wyndham to do this or to realign everything because of it.
> 
> Changes are always about "improving" the Club Wyndham product and experience.  Let's see how the new changes turn out?
> 
> Cynthia T.



You're right that you'll lose the ability to borrow for other than Express reservations. But the plus is that you won't lose the longer access to credit pooled points if you use them for a reservation that you cancel... points you credit pool after Aug 3rd, would be points that will have a shelf life of 3 years, regardless of how many times you book and cancel reservations with them.


----------



## antjmar

Bigrob said:


> But the plus is that you won't lose the longer access to credit pooled points if you use them for a reservation that you cancel... points you credit pool after Aug 3rd, would be points that will have a shelf life of 3 years, regardless of how many times you book and cancel reservations with them.



Wow that is great, I never thought of that!:whoopie:


----------



## am1

Bigrob said:


> You're right that you'll lose the ability to borrow for other than Express reservations. But the plus is that you won't lose the longer access to credit pooled points if you use them for a reservation that you cancel... points you credit pool after Aug 3rd, would be points that will have a shelf life of 3 years, regardless of how many times you book and cancel reservations with them.



I will have to try to keep track of which points were used for which reservation.  Cancel the reservations that expire the furthest out first.


----------



## Bigrob

am1 said:


> I will have to try to keep track of which points were used for which reservation.  Cancel the reservations that expire the furthest out first.



You shouldn't have to do this long. The way it was explained to me was that once the cutover is complete, the system will automatically make reservations with the points that would expire first for the given time period. So the only thing you might want/need to do is call in to restack some of the points when you make the reservation, if you want to make a reservation for late in a certain contract's use year that still has points, and you'd rather save those points for a reservation you'd make earlier in the use year.

I know it sounds complicated, but I think in practice it won't be too bad... just have to think about the reservations you're making a long ways out, and make sure you're pulling the points you want to for those. For example, for me I'll want to use July and October use year points for Christmas reservations. If I still have some regular Jan use year points when I make those reservations, I'll have to call in at the end of the day and restack them, to make sure I'm not holding onto Christmas reservations with points that will expire with little time to use them (and too late in the use year to credit pool them.)

The other approach would be to scrap the rest of the year, cancel everything you're not using that's unsold, and make a bunch of reservations in 2016. As a Platinum Owner with a January use year, you have until September 30th to credit pool. So you have time for Thanksgiving but not for Christmas, to cancel, see where the points land, and if in 2015, credit pool them. After this year, however, unless you need ARP, just credit pool everything and forget it.


----------



## am1

I may take a knee on Monday or scramble.  We will see.



Bigrob said:


> You shouldn't have to do this long. The way it was explained to me was that once the cutover is complete, the system will automatically make reservations with the points that would expire first for the given time period. So the only thing you might want/need to do is call in to restack some of the points when you make the reservation, if you want to make a reservation for late in a certain contract's use year that still has points, and you'd rather save those points for a reservation you'd make earlier in the use year.
> 
> I know it sounds complicated, but I think in practice it won't be too bad... just have to think about the reservations you're making a long ways out, and make sure you're pulling the points you want to for those. For example, for me I'll want to use July and October use year points for Christmas reservations. If I still have some regular Jan use year points when I make those reservations, I'll have to call in at the end of the day and restack them, to make sure I'm not holding onto Christmas reservations with points that will expire with little time to use them (and too late in the use year to credit pool them.)
> 
> The other approach would be to scrap the rest of the year, cancel everything you're not using that's unsold, and make a bunch of reservations in 2016. As a Platinum Owner with a January use year, you have until September 30th to credit pool. So you have time for Thanksgiving but not for Christmas, to cancel, see where the points land, and if in 2015, credit pool them. After this year, however, unless you need ARP, just credit pool everything and forget it.


----------



## Ron2

Bigrob said:


> Yes, that is what I was told. For a reservation made from regular use year points that are associated to a contract after August 4th; the points will go back to the contract. If they were in a credit pool, they will go back to the same credit pool. If the contract was transferred out before the reservation was cancelled, the points stay in your account (do NOT transfer to buyer after the fact) and because that contract is no longer in your account, but the point have to be associated to a contract after August 4th, they will be associated to the "predominant" contract. Also, what I was told is that the predominant contract is the largest contract of the same use year as the account. However, I believe this is just what the VC's were told, and we won't know for a fact that's how it works until it's rolled out, because the IT guys in India that coded it might not have got all the nuances of the business rules.



When I called Owner Care, I was told that cancellations would become regular points but they would lose their ARP and would not be associated with their original contract. There was no mention of a "predominant" contract. Apparently its all just speculation as to how this will work, even with the Wyndham specialists.


----------



## traveldaddy

That is what I was wondering. From the posts here (I still have not received the email!) I did not see it state that the regular points have ARP, just that they are returned to the same use year. Was that assumed somewhere in the chain of thread or in the original email from Wyndham?

I can see once they do this rollout, that benefits will change. I am thinking if they can trace points to the contract level, them VIP discounts or late credit pooling could be in the firing line for resale points. Not sure what they will do to us lowly non-VIP resale owners. 

Just speculation of course.


----------



## Bigrob

Ron2 said:


> When I called Owner Care, I was told that cancellations would become regular points but they would lose their ARP and would not be associated with their original contract. There was no mention of a "predominant" contract. Apparently its all just speculation as to how this will work, even with the Wyndham specialists.



It doesn't surprise me that there are different answers coming out from Wyndham. I will say that the person I spoke with seemed quite knowledgeable and is also a Wyndham Owner herself, so may have done some fact-checking for personal reasons as well. But she can't really "know" positively because to Ron P.'s point, it doesn't really matter how anyone thinks it should work, or even spec'd it to work - it only matters what the folks coding it did with the code. All the more reason, I think, to get a good snapshot before the changeover.

EDIT TO ADD: The more I think about it, the more likely I think it is that the interpretation your OC rep provided might be the correct one. Functionally, I don't think they would want points to go back to a predominant contract with good ARP. I'm thinking of a location like Bonnet Creek, where there are many times ARP would come in handy; as long as you were not using the ARP to try to secure more than 10 units, you could use the ARP to secure key units, cancel them at the 10 month mark and rebook same day (with other points before the points restack overnight as BC ARP points, or from another account) and then have ARP to use again. You could use the ARP 4 times a year that way. Nonetheless, I'm not discounting that it COULD work that way... 

I could see it getting confusing to have a new category of points... regular use year points with no ARP... mixed in with regular use year points that DO have ARP. I suppose it would be somewhat like regular use year points from converted fixed week contracts.


----------



## Bigrob

traveldaddy said:


> That is what I was wondering. From the posts here (I still have not received the email!) I did not see it state that the regular points have ARP, just that they are returned to the same use year. Was that assumed somewhere in the chain of thread or in the original email from Wyndham?
> 
> I can see once they do this rollout, that benefits will change. I am thinking if they can trace points to the contract level, them VIP discounts or late credit pooling could be in the firing line for resale points. Not sure what they will do to us lowly non-VIP resale owners.
> 
> Just speculation of course.



There was nothing in the email about the points being associated back to the contract or credit pool they came from. That was information that I received when I called in. 

I think there will be more significant system changes required to limit the ability to use non-VIP points for discounts, because at this time the discounts are governed at the account level. The "price" offered in points is based on the account and only one offer is presented. I'm not sure that is high on the priority list because the ability to use VIP benefits on the full account is one of the things touted heavily by sales. FYI, they already have - and have had - traceability to the points for a long time. 

At one point I thought a change they might make would have been to make cancelled points ineligible for VIP benefits. In this manner sales could continue to tout the benefits of VIP to "apply to the full account" but might conveniently "forget" to mention that you couldn't use the benefit over and over again on cancel/rebooks. This change obviates that concern. I suspect a change of that magnitude would have required a longer lead time for the fallout.

Regarding availability; it is NEVER going to improve if Wyndham continues to grab and hold literally ALL of the inventory via Extra Holidays. Last night I had someone staying at Bonnet Creek who wanted to stay an extra night. There of course were no units available to book. When I called the resort, I asked, "don't you have any backup units available in case of maintenance issues, etc."? to which she said, "oh yeah, we have units. In fact the guests could have stayed in the same unit they were in, it's available. It would be $249/night."


----------



## vacationhopeful

Bigrob said:


> ....Regarding availability; it is NEVER going to improve if Wyndham continues to grab and hold literally ALL of the inventory via Extra Holidays. ...



Any really PRIME time inventory within 60 days of checkin has VALUE only as a rental to Extra Holidays or for "targets" in the Discovery Program. Least we forget, the Discovery Program who get "short stays" (3 or 4 nights during Prime time) ... found them at Royal Vista during late Feb and Mar - each cancelled reservation would become 2+ Discovery pigeons' vacation stays.

And it will get worst - as the economy is improves, MORE aggressive sales tactics, expanded internet selling/acceptance. 

I own for ARP and while I have covered my costs over the last years ... my baby boomer generation is growing larger and retiring. Who of my generation is still skiing and enjoying ice & snow? Fewer every year! But the warmth of Florida - Wyndham has grown only in Orlando area ... not Pompano nor anywhere on the Gulf side.

PS I have been looking at the non-Wyndham area resorts as new turf to buy. I don't think many of the Snowbird crew would considered oceanfront stays at Myrtle Beach to be warm and inviting (indoor pools have to be gotten to) and those catwalks at Ocean Blvd would be "interesting" in icy conditions.


----------



## ronparise

I had my conversation with owner care today, I work with the same person for all my problems, and her title is Senior Case Specialist, Owner Care, so Im guessing she has a little more experience than the average owner care person

heres what I learned:

Regarding cancelled reservations. She says the only change will be in the name. Behind the scenes everything stays the same. They were never able to attach a cancelled point with a particular contract, so now that doesnt change. They are still cancelled points but will now be called regular use year points, and will not be associated with any contract. The only difference is that the things we could never do with cancelled points will now be possible. 

She confirmed that we will be able to make more than 10 reservations: the excess will be cancelled later

She was also pretty sure that the system wouldnt see ARP reservations when counting to 10 so you could have 20 ARP reservations and 10 Standard and Express reservations

And talking about what the system will or wont see. It wont see or tie together multiple accounts. So the owner with an interest in multiple platinum accounts or points managers with multiple platinum accounts available to them will be able to have 10 reservations in each one. 


All this convinces me that this is no more than a PR move. The stated goal is to "increase availability for more owners at the most sought after resorts".  That sounds great, but thats a carefully worded statement and the key words are "for more owners" it doesnt say for how many more.  For the most popular reservations there will be no change;  everything will get sucked up in the ARP window just like now.  

But lets make a big assumption  that there are some very popular reservations left in the Standard reservations window. Under the new rules we are limited to 10 each. Lets assume a hypothetical 100 unit resort where only 50 of our hard to get reservations were taken in the ARP window, 50 are left. so now instead of 2 owners getting 25 each, there will be 5 owners able to get 10 each.  So back to our goal of increasing availability for more owners .... it worked, in my example availability was increased for 3 owners.   Big effing deal!  There is no change for the bulk of the owner base. But at least thing feel more fair.  Unfortunately the number of reservations hung up in rentals wont change significantly, and the guy that paid $20000 and $600 a year mf for 105000 points will still be pissed off when on his one very expensive weekend vacation a year he shares a hot tub with one of my rental customers that paid me just $300 for the same weekend.


----------



## am1

Which weeks should I start reserving in New Orleans?



ronparise said:


> All this convinces me that this is no more than a PR move. The stated goal is to "increase availability for more owners at the most sought after resorts".  That sounds great, but thats a carefully worded statement and the key words are "for more owners" it doesnt say for how many more.  For the most popular reservations there will be no change;  everything will get sucked up in the ARP window just like now.
> 
> But lets make a big assumption  that there are some very popular reservations left in the Standard reservations window. Under the new rules we are limited to 10 each. Lets assume a hypothetical 100 unit resort where only 50 of our hard to get reservations were taken in the ARP window, 50 are left. so now instead of 2 owners getting 25 each, there will be 5 owners able to get 10 each.  So back to our goal of increasing availability for more owners .... it worked, in my example availability was increased for 3 owners.   Big effing deal!  There is no change for the bulk of the owner base. But at least thing feel more fair.  Unfortunately the number of reservations hung up in rentals wont change significantly, and the guy that paid $20000 and $600 a year mf for 105000 points will still be pissed off when on his one very expensive weekend vacation a year he shares a hot tub with one of my rental customers that paid me just $300 for the same weekend.


----------



## ronparise

am1 said:


> Which weeks should I start reserving in New Orleans?



You can have anything Im not able to reserve.


----------



## persia

Perhaps Glacier Canyon folks complaining? That place is swamped with mega-renters. But it will have no affect since the popular weeks are gone in ARP anyway....


----------



## ronparise

persia said:


> Perhaps Glacier Canyon folks complaining? That place is swamped with mega-renters. But it will have no affect since the popular weeks are gone in ARP anyway....




exactly right


----------



## am1

Will reservations booked before October 1st count towards the limit of 10 if more are booked for the same dates after october 1?  Sort of like the question if ARP reservations will be completely excluded from counting.  But a one time event.  

Who is going to pay for the extra housekeeping costs and checking guests in and out of resorts?


----------



## ecwinch

ronparise said:


> Lets assume a hypothetical 100 unit resort where only 50 of our hard to get reservations were taken in the ARP window, 50 are left. so now instead of 2 owners getting 25 each, there will be 5 owners able to get 10 each.  So back to our goal of increasing availability for more owners .... it worked, in my example availability was increased for 3 owners.   Big effing deal!  There is no change for the bulk of the owner base. But at least thing feel more fair.  Unfortunately the number of reservations hung up in rentals wont change significantly, and the guy that paid $20000 and $600 a year mf for 105000 points will still be pissed off when on his one very expensive weekend vacation a year he shares a hot tub with one of my rental customers that paid me just $300 for the same weekend.



Personally I think the intent is to increase the cost of the renting by limiting the cancel/rebook strategy. If someone booked 20 ARP and 10 standard reservations, they will not be able to cancel/rebook any of the ARP reservations.


----------



## Ty1on

ecwinch said:


> Personally I think the intent is to increase the cost of the renting by limiting the cancel/rebook strategy. If someone booked 20 ARP and 10 standard reservations, they will not be able to cancel/rebook any of the ARP reservations.



But that person would be able to cancel/rebook the 10 standard reservations, which originally cost the same points as the ARP....


----------



## ecwinch

Sure - but the cost of doing business just went up. Lets assume a 75k reservation. Twenty units booked in ARP and 10 at standard. So 2.25m pts.  

Under old rules - cancel rebook each res = 1.125m pts
New rules = 1.5m (20 ARP) + 375k (10 Std) = 1.875m


----------



## Ty1on

ecwinch said:


> Sure - but the cost of doing business just went up. Lets assume a 75k reservation. Twenty units booked in ARP and 10 at standard. So 2.25m pts.
> 
> Under old rules - cancel rebook each res = 1.125m pts
> New rules = 1.5m (20 ARP) + 375k (10 Std) = 1.875m



Yes, it seems like that may have been the intention.


----------



## Don40

This rule change is trying to slow down the cancel rebook.  Wyndham is happy if you use full points to book a unit as ARP is not affected, book to the max amount of points you have.  
This is trying to cut down on the potential profit a renter can make with the 50% discount and upgrade feature.
Wyndham is the largest renter scooping up the inventory for nothing, and complaining about a few people making a dollar.  They are greedy, let them play by the same rules as everyone else, that will free up inventory for the rest of the owners.


----------



## ronparise

ecwinch said:


> Sure - but the cost of doing business just went up. Lets assume a 75k reservation. Twenty units booked in ARP and 10 at standard. So 2.25m pts.
> 
> Under old rules - cancel rebook each res = 1.125m pts
> New rules = 1.5m (20 ARP) + 375k (10 Std) = 1.875m



Eric

I think you are exactly right.  looking at it on a per reservation basis;  instead of each reservation costing me 37,500 points , (about $300) now my average cost will be  62500 points plus a guest confirm (about $425) 

So lets take it to the next step. and try to predict the reaction of the typical mega renter.  I think that they will increase the number of rentals that they do, to preserve their income stream

Wyndham may cut back on the number of cancel and rebooks that happen, but overall I think rental activity will increase. It will become more difficult to get a reservation at Glacier Canyon, not easier.


----------



## am1

ronparise said:


> Wyndham may cut back on the number of cancel and rebooks that happen, but overall I think rental activity will increase. It will become more difficult to get a reservation at Glacier Canyon, not easier.



One resort I may enter which I previously had not needed to.


----------



## Bigrob

ronparise said:


> Eric
> 
> I think you are exactly right.  looking at it on a per reservation basis;  instead of each reservation costing me 37,500 points , (about $300) now my average cost will be  62500 points plus a guest confirm (about $425)
> 
> So lets take it to the next step. and try to predict the reaction of the typical mega renter.  I think that they will increase the number of rentals that they do, to preserve their income stream
> 
> Wyndham may cut back on the number of cancel and rebooks that happen, but overall I think rental activity will increase. It will become more difficult to get a reservation at Glacier Canyon, not easier.



Agree, and it will make mega-renters more likely to enter new markets. As you've been saying, it will distribute each resort to a wider base of mega-renters, but not eliminate or even reduce the rental activity at each resort. In fact to the extent margins are reduced, activity (volume) may increase to compensate.

I do believe Ron and Ron's contacts more than I do mine regarding points treatment; I think the points treatment will be essentially unchanged and that "cancelled" points will be different in name only (and carry the ability of regular use points other than ARP). My contact was definitely wrong on one other point she was making to me, so the rest of what I heard is more suspect.  It is unfortunate that Wyndham doesn't seem to provide a "single source of truth" about changes such as these.


----------



## Bigrob

am1 said:


> Who is going to pay for the extra housekeeping costs and checking guests in and out of resorts?



You lost me on this one. What about this change is increasing housekeeping and check-ins?


----------



## am1

Bigrob said:


> You lost me on this one. What about this change is increasing housekeeping and check-ins?



I am sure you are not the only one.

In the past I would book full weeks when possible.  Now I will have to make sure I do not go over 10 reservations for any given night.  That may mean I can only book a Saturday - Friday reservation as I have maxed out the friday night already.  That leaves the Friday night reservation on its own for someone else to book.  

I would also put together 2-4 reservations to make up a week for the same guest.  Now I will not need to do that.  2-4 owners will now occupy that room over the week instead of just 1.


----------



## ecwinch

Don40 said:


> This rule change is trying to slow down the cancel rebook.  Wyndham is happy if you use full points to book a unit as ARP is not affected, book to the max amount of points you have.
> This is trying to cut down on the potential profit a renter can make with the 50% discount and upgrade feature.
> Wyndham is the largest renter scooping up the inventory for nothing, and complaining about a few people making a dollar.  They are greedy, let them play by the same rules as everyone else, that will free up inventory for the rest of the owners.



I am sorry, but I find the comparison to Wyndham's rental activities to be apples and oranges. Wyndham does not engage in a systematic process to grab units with the highest rental potential at the 10/13 month mark. And Wyndham stopping their rental activity that would have almost no impact on the average owner being able to book prime units. That is a red herring.


----------



## Bigrob

ecwinch said:


> And Wyndham stopping their rental activity that would have almost no impact on the average owner being able to book prime units. That is a red herring.



Do you have evidence of this? It may be a true statement for the owner that can book far in advance. It is definitely not the case, from what I have seen, for owners who can only book short notice, when Wyndham has grabbed all of the remaining inventory. But perhaps you have inside information and insight that I don't?

I had a very recent example. Plenty of availability if you go through extraholidays. No availability to book with points. A guest wanted to extend, and the unit they were in and got kicked out of was available. BUT NOT TO OWNERS TO BOOK. Only through Wyndham's rental arm, which is not subject in any way to the rules being imposed on all other owners. I agree with Don40. It is at best a conflict of interest to have one part of the company serving up advantages to another part of the company. 

But sure, it's a red herring if you say so. Maybe you'll feel differently if you want to extend your vacation and get strong-armed into paying extraholidays for it instead of being able to use your points.


----------



## Bigrob

ronparise said:


> I had my conversation with owner care today, I work with the same person for all my problems, and her title is Senior Case Specialist, Owner Care, so Im guessing she has a little more experience than the average owner care person
> 
> heres what I learned:
> 
> Regarding cancelled reservations. She says the only change will be in the name. Behind the scenes everything stays the same. They were never able to attach a cancelled point with a particular contract, so now that doesnt change. They are still cancelled points but will now be called regular use year points, and will not be associated with any contract. The only difference is that the things we could never do with cancelled points will now be possible.



I spoke with another agent today who confirmed that reservations made from regular use year points will go back to being regular use year points in the year they were made from, and not be associated to a contract (and therefore have no ARP.)

But unlike today, she did say that reservations made from credit pooled points will go back to the credit pool with the same expiration as they had originally. As most of you know, if you cancel a reservation made with credit pooled points today, the points are cancelled points in the year of the reservation. So that IS a change, and a positive one (at least in most situations, unless you have points in a pool that are set to expire.)


----------



## ecwinch

Bigrob said:


> Agree, and it will make mega-renters more likely to enter new markets. As you've been saying, it will distribute each resort to a wider base of mega-renters, but not eliminate or even reduce the rental activity at each resort. In fact to the extent margins are reduced, activity (volume) may increase to compensate.



I agree that the potential exists, but I think the offset will be less overall.

Certainly it will cause some renters to target a broader range of resorts and  operate under the limit in order to retain margins. But there is not unlimited demand for rentals. So by increasing their costs, making their operations more complicated, and creating barriers for new renters to become commercial renters - the net impact will offset the impact of mega-renters diversifying to other resorts IMHO.

And increasing their volume involves taking on more points or finding more accts to manage. Which just increases fixed operating costs and business risk. All things the makes the business less viable. For it would only take a few defaults by pts managers to adversely impact that business model.


----------



## ecwinch

Bigrob said:


> Do you have evidence of this? It may be a true statement for the owner that can book far in advance. It is definitely not the case, from what I have seen, for owners who can only book short notice, when Wyndham has grabbed all of the remaining inventory. But perhaps you have inside information and insight that I don't?
> 
> I had a very recent example. Plenty of availability if you go through extraholidays. No availability to book with points. A guest wanted to extend, and the unit they were in and got kicked out of was available. BUT NOT TO OWNERS TO BOOK. Only through Wyndham's rental arm, which is not subject in any way to the rules being imposed on all other owners. I agree with Don40. It is at best a conflict of interest to have one part of the company serving up advantages to another part of the company.
> 
> But sure, it's a red herring if you say so. Maybe you'll feel differently if you want to extend your vacation and get strong-armed into paying extraholidays for it instead of being able to use your points.



Come on ... I clearly said "prime units".

But in case I missed something - what rules is Wyndham's rental arm exempt from?


----------



## paxsarah

Bigrob said:


> I spoke with another agent today who confirmed that reservations made from regular use year points will go back to being regular use year points in the year they were made from, and not be associated to a contract (and therefore have no ARP.)
> 
> But unlike today, she did say that reservations made from credit pooled points will go back to the credit pool with the same expiration as they had originally. As most of you know, if you cancel a reservation made with credit pooled points today, the points are cancelled points in the year of the reservation. So that IS a change, and a positive one (at least in most situations, unless you have points in a pool that are set to expire.)



Or if you have points in a pool that you want to deposit to RCI. Before this change, I'd be happy to deposit all my points into the credit pool that I wasn't planning on using for ARP. If I decided to use RCI (so far only for DVC but it is a good trade), I'd transfer the points to RCI close to whenever I needed to to make the exchange (after booking and cancelling if necessary with pooled points). Now I may have to hold back points for RCI deposits as well as ARP, depending on our plans. It does complicate things a little bit for us now.


----------



## vacationhopeful

ecwinch said:


> Come on ... I clearly said "prime units".
> 
> But in case I missed something - what rules is Wyndham's rental arm exempt from?



From what I understand, Extra Holidays can "CLAIM for FREE" 90% of any available inventory 60 days before checkin.

If an owner contracts with Extra Holidays to rent a reservation or fixed week ownership, Wyndham charges all types of fees against the "cash" collected including clean fees and credit card processioning fees PLUS 40% commission of the GROSS income. A 1 week reservation is deemed RENTED if ONLY 1 of the 7 nights is booked. And the owner can NOT find out if the unit is rented before the checkin date. They find out the final value number via a payment 30 days after checkout/end of reservation. Image a unit with a MF of $1200 and Extra Holidays website rents it for Tues night at $89 - netting chump change to the owner (actually, it could be zero).


----------



## am1

vacationhopeful said:


> From what I understand, Extra Holidays can "CLAIM for FREE" 90% of any available inventory 60 days before checkin.



Is it for free or using unsold points, points for plus partners, etc?


----------



## traveldaddy

*Thank you all*

Canceled my reservation last night. This morning it was updated as Jan/16 canceled points, so I have them for all of next year. 

I guess I will be able to say I rolled points forward 3 times, the first, last and only time. Remember the good old days? 

I appreciate the help very much.


----------



## Bigrob

traveldaddy said:


> Canceled my reservation last night. This morning it was updated as Jan/16 canceled points, so I have them for all of next year.
> 
> I guess I will be able to say I rolled points forward 3 times, the first, last and only time. Remember the good old days?
> 
> I appreciate the help very much.



Cool! Glad it worked out for you. And you can now extend them another 3 years by credit pooling on Dec 31.


----------



## Bigrob

paxsarah said:


> Or if you have points in a pool that you want to deposit to RCI. Before this change, I'd be happy to deposit all my points into the credit pool that I wasn't planning on using for ARP. If I decided to use RCI (so far only for DVC but it is a good trade), I'd transfer the points to RCI close to whenever I needed to to make the exchange (after booking and cancelling if necessary with pooled points). Now I may have to hold back points for RCI deposits as well as ARP, depending on our plans. It does complicate things a little bit for us now.



This is a good point that I had not considered. It does seem that there should be a way to facilitate being able to deposit points for use with RCI... because unless you're VIP, you have to credit pool before the use year begins, and you may not know at that time whether (and how many points) you want to deposit to RCI. Hmmm.


----------



## Bigrob

ecwinch said:


> Come on ... I clearly said "prime units".
> 
> But in case I missed something - what rules is Wyndham's rental arm exempt from?



Wyndham's rental arm is not bound by the limits that everyone else is in terms of number of concurrent reservations. 

Just because something is, or becomes, available at the last minute does not necessarily imply that it is not prime. That is the mistake so many people make. These prime units are being grabbed automatically by extraholidays, not subject to the same rules as the rest of us, and are being held for ransom at ridiculous extraholidays rates rather than being offered to owners to book. 

We are paying for Wyndham to manage this through our CWP fees. They are using those fees, in part, to fund development of system changes and business rules that further allow their own rental arm to grab additional inventory. If the Wyndham rental arm abided by their own rules, then I do think you would see a difference in availability, and to Ron's point the owner booking at the last minute would have more opportunity to make his weekend booking with his 105,000 point contract that he paid $20,000 for and $780 maintenance fees on. Imagine how much angrier that mythical owner is when he's sitting next to Ron's renter who paid $300 for a 3-night stay, and he couldn't even use his points but had to pay extraholidays $225+/night for the same stay.


----------



## Bigrob

am1 said:


> Is it for free or using unsold points, points for plus partners, etc?



They are accounting for the "free" inventory via several mechanisms and from deposits from unwitting owners willing to accept the "deal" from extraholidays. 

This is another factor to consider, they use the "free" points at the 60-day mark to absorb the inventory (read: limit the utilization of VIP discounts); if you as an owner deposit your interval with them after the 60-day mark, you are at the back of a long line of points/intervals that were deposited before you, meaning the odds of your interval being rented are greatly reduced.


----------



## Vacationfuntips

Here is my update regarding 2016 points that I brought over (borrowing them) to 2015 before the change on Aug 4th.  Once I canceled my reservation my points were returned as regular use year 2015 points.  Since the points were placed into 2015, they stayed in 2015.  The points were not returned to 2016.  I verified the use year allocation by checking on points I had that were available to deposit in RCI.  

Now I have regular use year 2015 points and must  use them by the end of the year.   

Cynthia T.


----------



## am1

Bigrob said:


> They are accounting for the "free" inventory via several mechanisms and from deposits from unwitting owners willing to accept the "deal" from extraholidays.
> 
> This is another factor to consider, they use the "free" points at the 60-day mark to absorb the inventory (read: limit the utilization of VIP discounts); if you as an owner deposit your interval with them after the 60-day mark, you are at the back of a long line of points/intervals that were deposited before you, meaning the odds of your interval being rented are greatly reduced.



But it is wyndham's points that they are using to reserve those points.  At what amount of points Wyndham is able to take reservations at 60 days for extra holidays we do not know.


----------



## Bigrob

am1 said:


> But it is wyndham's points that they are using to reserve those points.  At what amount of points Wyndham is able to take reservations at 60 days for extra holidays we do not know.



Good point. Pretty sure it is not at face value. Probably at Platinum discount level.


----------



## ecwinch

I do not read the Trust Agreement to say that Wyndham has to use points to make reservations at the 60 day mark. Only that they need to pay "occupancy related expenses" for the reservation. But that they may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy by unit type until the 30 day mark.

This is in paragraph 11.08 of the Trust Agreement.

Also says that Wyndham is free to make reservations at any time with pts they own directly. Subject to the same 10% rule above.


----------



## Ty1on

Bigrob said:


> Good point. Pretty sure it is not at face value. Probably at Platinum discount level.



I thought I read something about 25% of point value, but I can't find it now.


----------



## Bigrob

Ty1on said:


> I thought I read something about 25% of point value, but I can't find it now.



Where do you think you read that?


----------



## Bigrob

ecwinch said:


> I do not read the Trust Agreement to say that Wyndham has to use points to make reservations at the 60 day mark. Only that they need to pay "occupancy related expenses" for the reservation. But that they may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy by unit type until the 30 day mark.
> 
> This is in paragraph 11.08 of the Trust Agreement.
> 
> Also says that Wyndham is free to make reservations at any time with pts they own directly. Subject to the same 10% rule above.



And NOT subject to the new rules that govern everyone else. Thanks for reading that in the Trust Agreement. 

Does anyone know if an up-to-date Trust Agreement is posted online anywhere? If not, would someone be willing to post a link to a google drive, box, dropbox, or other site with their copy of the Trust Agreement?


----------



## Ty1on

Bigrob said:


> Where do you think you read that?



I can't honestly say, but it stands out in my mind.


----------



## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> Does anyone know if an up-to-date Trust Agreement is posted online anywhere? If not, would someone be willing to post a link to a google drive, box, dropbox, or other site with their copy of the Trust Agreement?



http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128302

This is from the VOA trust agreement that was recently posted to the Wyndham Advice and Information Stickie

"11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use. In addition, to the extent more Points are available in the Plan than are allocated to Members other 
than Wyndham, Wyndham may sell or lease Points on such terms as Wyndham and the Trustee deem reasonable. The purchasers or lessees of such Points shall have such Membership rights as Wyndham and the Trustee deem appropriate."


Full points must be paid for all reservations.  The points must come from somewhere, otherwise it would be "overselling."  When a discount reservation is made, the member pays the discounted points and Wyndham provides the balance.  It would make no sense for Wyndham to use a discount, because Wyndham would have to pay the difference -- discount or no discount, Wyndham would always pay 100% of the points.


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128302
> 
> "11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use. In addition, to the extent more Points are available in the Plan than are allocated to Members other
> than Wyndham, Wyndham may sell or lease Points on such terms as Wyndham and the Trustee deem reasonable. The purchasers or lessees of such Points shall have such Membership rights as Wyndham and the Trustee deem appropriate."
> 
> 
> Full points must be paid for all reservations.  The points must come from somewhere, otherwise it would be "overselling."  When a discount reservation is made, the member pays the discounted points and Wyndham provides the balance.  It would make no sense for Wyndham to use a discount, because Wyndham would have to pay the difference -- discount or no discount, Wyndham would always pay 100% of the points.



Are you stating the above as a fact from some other document or source? Because I don't read that into the 11.08 Trust Language quoted above. I read that as an either/or:

Case 1. Wyndham as owner of points can use the points for reservations at any time it deems fit (not subject to any NUL) - as this would be outside 60 days, such reservations are presumably at full point value (although this is not stated).

Case 2. Wyndham can reserve 90% of available units at the 60 day mark, and all of the remaining units at the 30 day mark, and the payment is NOT in points... it is either directly or by a "third party" (read: Wyndham's rental arm, ExtraHolidays) causes to "pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used."

There are two things troubling in that statement. One is the determination of the "occupancy related expenses" - and the other, not so obvious implication, is that if the nights are reserved and NOT USED, there is no compensation stated or implied, even though those nights were no longer available for owners to book.

Nothing here in any way changes the clear fact that Wyndham grabbing all the inventory at 60 and 30 days - whether or not they pay some token amount, or nothing at all if not used - does in fact affect availability for owners, especially those who due to work or family considerations, don't have the luxury of planning their trips 10 months in advance.

If Wyndham were serious about reducing complaints about lack of availability, they would stop gobbling up all the inventory at high demand resorts in the discount window.

Consider this example at Bonnet Creek, for example. 1770 units in total. Let's say for the sake of argument, out of that there are still 100 units available at day 61. On day 60, the availability drops to 10, and mega-renters seeing the dark green turning to light green gobble up the remainder. At day 30, megarenters who forgot to cancel/rebook find they can't cancel/rebook, because Wyndham is automatically grabbing everything inside of 30 days. (Yes, they are doing this. That is why the units don't come back.) No wonder Joe average has no chance if he can't plan far in advance. Oh, and if you're silver... good luck getting an upgrade!

Here at TUG we advise potential timeshare owners that timeshares may not be for them if they want to travel at peak times and can't plan well in advance. But that is not the refrain played by sales (and the false availability reserved for "Discovery" points just adds to the mis-perception that Joe Average will be able to use his points the way he thinks he can). Is it any surprise that this is a common complaint? 

Physician, heal thyself.


----------



## ecwinch

I believe - based on both the language and observations on unit availability - that the 10% limit/cap on Wyndham is based on total inventory by type, and not the remaining inventory at the 60 day mark. 

So if a resort has 100 1 BR units (total inventory), then Wyndham cannot reserve the last 10 units until 30 days out - either with their pts or by taking the inventory at the 60 day mark.

So if 12 1 BR rooms are available at 60 days out, then they can take 2 units. Not that they can take all but 1.2 units.


----------



## Ty1on

ecwinch said:


> I believe - based on both the language and observations on unit availability - that the 10% limit/cap on Wyndham is based on total inventory by type, and not the remaining inventory at the 60 day mark.
> 
> So if a resort has 100 1 BR units (total inventory), then Wyndham cannot reserve the last 10 units until 30 days out - either with their pts or by taking the inventory at the 60 day mark.
> 
> So if 12 1 BR rooms are available at 60 days out, then they can take 2 units. Not that they can take all but 1.2 units.



Yes, the Member's guide supplement has clarified that.

If there are less than 50 Club units at a property, the limit becomes 20% of the total units owned by the Club.


----------



## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> Are you stating the above as a fact from some other document or source?


What are you suggesting?  That Wyndham just reserves out of thin air?  Do you really think that any state timeshare regulatory agency would allow this?  Wyndham must have a bazillion unsold and foreclosed points that expire every year.  There is absolutely no reason why they would not use these points to make full credit reservations within 60 days, if that is what they chose to do.




Bigrob said:


> I read that as an either/or:
> 
> Case 1. Wyndham as owner of points can use the points for reservations at any time it deems fit (not subject to any NUL) - as this would be outside 60 days, such reservations are presumably at full point value (although this is not stated).
> 
> Case 2. Wyndham can reserve 90% of available units at the 60 day mark, and all of the remaining units at the 30 day mark, and the payment is NOT in points... it is either directly or by a "third party" (read: Wyndham's rental arm, ExtraHolidays) causes to "pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used."
> 
> There are two things troubling in that statement. One is the determination of the "occupancy related expenses" - and the other, not so obvious implication, is that if the nights are reserved and NOT USED, there is no compensation stated or implied, even though those nights were no longer available for owners to book.



Of course the reservations are made by Wyndham for full points (see above).  Wyndham can then choose to sell (or give away) these reservations for any amount.  If they sell these reservations in bulk to a third party for $100 each, that is $100 per reservation more than if they just let their bazillion points expire worthless.  If Wyndham chooses to market any of these reservations through Extra Holidays, there is nothing to prevent this.  Once again, if they sell only some nights here and there, that is more than letting the points expire.

Who knows if Wyndham is grabbing inventory at 60 or 30 days?  Mega-renters who book premium reservations at 13 or 10 months with the intent to rent, or cancel/rebook and rent are just as bad, if not worse.  If someone cannot make their vacation plans more than 60 days (or 13 or 10 months) in advance, they would obviously be more satisfied with hotels (which may not have any availability at 60 days, either) than with a timeshare.  Salespeople would never point this out, of course, because how would that help a sale?




Bigrob said:


> If Wyndham were serious about reducing complaints about lack of availability, they would stop gobbling up all the inventory at high demand resorts in the discount window.



If Wyndham were serious about reducing complaints about lack of availability, they would stop [landlords including mega-renters] gobbling up all the inventory at high demand resorts in the [ARP and 10-month] window, then cancelling-rebooking-and/or-upgrading in the VIP discount window.




Bigrob said:


> Here at TUG we advise potential timeshare owners that timeshares may not be for them if they want to travel at peak times and can't plan well in advance. But that is not the refrain played by sales (and the false availability reserved for "Discovery" points just adds to the mis-perception that Joe Average will be able to use his points the way he thinks he can). Is it any surprise that this is a common complaint?



At my first presentation and purchase , the salesperson somehow forgot to mention anything about ongoing maintenance fees.  Imagine my surprise when that first bill showed up, and what it did for my per-vacation cost analysis versus what the salesperson presented.  Timeshare salespeople stretch the truth and outright lie.  So what is new?

Your post (and others' in other threads) reek of sour grapes because someone or something is interfering with what used to be a predictable cancel/rebook road to profitability.  Wyndham is an easy target, because there is no way to prove it one way or another.  If Wyndham were capturing all cancellations within 60 days (doubtful, but everyone is entitled to their paranoia), at least that possibility is clearly spelled out in the VOA Trust, whereas cancel/rebook is just a loophole in the rules.


----------



## vacationhopeful

[/COLOR]





CO skier said:


> What are you suggesting?  *That Wyndham just reserves out of thin air?*
> 
> _You are giving Wyndham too much credit ... if the reservation is AVAILABLE they can grab it. Nowhere have I heard or read that Wyndham pays (in points or $$$) for those units. It is UN-BOOKED ... and Wyndham can USE IT for whatever reason and NOT pay for it._
> 
> 
> Do you really think that any state timeshare regulatory agency would allow this?  Wyndham must have a bazillion unsold and foreclosed points that expire every year.  There is absolutely no reason why they would not use these points to make full credit reservations within 60 days, if that is what they chose to do.
> 
> _WHY? If the rule book says Wyndham can take ... why get involved with all that accounting. Extra Holidays pays sales taxes and has commissions and advertising expenses (and office space, computer time, etc) ... Read the Extra Holiday's rental contract to TS owners .... If an owner turns over a reservation to EH, only one guest is put in the unit ... even if for ONLY 1 night of the 7 day reservation ... the other 6 nights the unit sit EMPTY. It is a DUMB reservation system ... not a hotel running on every night is LOST income._
> 
> Of course the reservations are made by Wyndham for full points (see above).  Wyndham can then choose to sell (or give away) these reservations for any amount.  If they sell these reservations in bulk to a third party for $100 each, that is $100 per reservation more than if they just let their bazillion points expire worthless.  If Wyndham chooses to market any of these reservations through Extra Holidays, there is nothing to prevent this.  Once again, if they sell only some nights here and there, that is more than letting the points expire.
> 
> _The unbooked inventory at 60 days out has NO VALUE to Wyndham Corporate... it is salvage GIVEN over to Extra Holidays. The HOA pays the bills either thru FW ownership or deeded points or via CWA trust for the points that CWA owns. _
> 
> Who knows if Wyndham is grabbing inventory at 60 or 30 days?  Mega-renters who book premium reservations at 13 or 10 months with the intent to rent, or cancel/rebook and rent are just as bad, if not worse.  If someone cannot make their vacation plans more than 60 days (or 13 or 10 months) in advance, they would obviously be more satisfied with hotels (which may not have any availability at 60 days, either) than with a timeshare.  Salespeople would never point this out, of course, because how would that help a sale?
> 
> [I]MEGA-RENTERS own points and pay MFs. Allegdely, discounts via the VIP system is paid for by Sales via a balancing of the discounts over the year ... and this very well might happen[/I].
> 
> 
> If Wyndham were serious about reducing complaints about lack of availability, they would stop [landlords including mega-renters] gobbling up all the inventory at high demand resorts in the [ARP and 10-month] window, then cancelling-rebooking-and/or-upgrading in the VIP discount window.
> 
> _Wyndham has SOLD the points to owners ... some who choose to READ the Member Directory and some who whine. _
> 
> At my first presentation and purchase , the salesperson somehow forgot to mention anything about ongoing maintenance fees.  Imagine my surprise when that first bill showed up, and what it did for my per-vacation cost analysis versus what the salesperson presented.  _Timeshare salespeople stretch the truth and outright lie.  So what is new?_
> 
> Your post (and others' in other threads) reek of sour grapes because someone or something is interfering with what used to be a predictable cancel/rebook road to profitability.  Wyndham is an easy target, because there is no way to prove it one way or another.  If Wyndham were capturing all cancellations within 60 days (doubtful, but everyone is entitled to their paranoia), at least that possibility is clearly spelled out in the VOA Trust, whereas cancel/rebook is just a loophole in the rules.
> 
> _Wyndham can take 90% of the available unbooked inventory at 60 days out and 100% within 30 days. And no, Wyndham doesn't have to pay for it ... it is considered "Salvage Inventory" ... whether it is PRIME TIME or LOWER than CRAP seasonal inventory._



See updates above.

I have had my Fixed Week unit during Prime Season "occupied" by a Extra Holiday's tenant. And I, within 2 weeks, was in the HOA meeting hot the all bull crap asking "WHAT RIGHT" and where was my signature on a release to give up my unit to Extra Holiday's. And the best line was, I want ALL my money without commissions or fees in my hand NOW. 

I learned NEXT TIME, to call the POLICE for theft ... I got NO MONEY, their guest roosted in my unit and MY _friends_ got another similar unit for the few nights they were in town. But at 10PM at night, to have the front desk DENIED I had a unit there, leaving my guests standing homeless in the lobby ... I had to get the assistant resort managed called at HOME ..etc.

And HOW did I find all this out as to WHO was sleeping in MY fixed deed week? I called my unit and ASK to speak to "me" by name. And when the person said they did NOT know "me", I asked if they had rented the place from me? No, they had paid EXTRA HOLIDAYS .... so the Extra Holidays web site was $250+ per night and that is the CASH money I wanted ... I have no agreement to lease to EH and I was sure as crap not going to REWARD the thieving operation.


----------



## Bigrob

Ty1on said:


> Yes, the Member's guide supplement has clarified that.
> 
> If there are less than 50 Club units at a property, the limit becomes 20% of the total units owned by the Club.



That restriction applies to everyone BUT Wyndham.


----------



## ronparise

So how is the new policy working

are the points from reservations made with credit pooled points, going back to the pool or are they being carried as regular use year points ?...

and if you have multiple use years are they "rolling forward"?


----------



## Ty1on

Bigrob said:


> That restriction applies to everyone BUT Wyndham.



Yeah I think Wyndham is only restricted from using the last 10%.


----------



## Ty1on

Bigrob said:


> That restriction applies to everyone BUT Wyndham.



Just to be clear, by "owned by the club," I mean held in trust for use by Club members.


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> Your post (and others' in other threads) reek of sour grapes because someone or something is interfering with what used to be a predictable cancel/rebook road to profitability.  Wyndham is an easy target, because there is no way to prove it one way or another.  If Wyndham were capturing all cancellations within 60 days (doubtful, but everyone is entitled to their paranoia), at least that possibility is clearly spelled out in the VOA Trust, whereas cancel/rebook is just a loophole in the rules.



Actually, I am still very high on the Wyndham product. I am looking for ways to make it more accessible for all owners, and it's clear we disagree about the impact of Wyndham grabbing all the available inventory at 30 days and most of it at 60 days. Wouldn't it make more sense to NOT block that inventory, but just make reservations as they get them through EH? More units available for all, and no conflict of interest. 

One would think that having been deceived by Wyndham sales already, you would not be such an advocate for a self-serving change that does not address the issue it purportedly is designed to address, and I guess I'm confused as to why you'd attack me for pointing out the flaw in addressing the availability issue. Quite honestly, the nightly unit limit change doesn't impact me directly at all, I never held units in excess of the new limit anyway. I'm sure it does impact some other owners. But I don't see any way to characterize the on-going ability of Wyndham to lock up all the inventory at 30 days as being in any way helpful in addressing the availability issue for all owners. 

I guess it is what it is. I'm just disappointed that Wyndham didn't address both sides of the issue by changing the amount of inventory they take concurrent with the change being made for all other owners... in the interest of truly increasing availability for all owners.


----------



## Bigrob

ronparise said:


> So how is the new policy working
> 
> are the points from reservations made with credit pooled points, going back to the pool or are they being carried as regular use year points ?...
> 
> and if you have multiple use years are they "rolling forward"?



not rolling forward, at least from what I've seen so far. Limited sample size. And irritatingly, I again was told that the points do go back to the contract they came from (with ARP). The only points going forward that don't go back to a contract or credit pool (according to the person I spoke with today) is RENTED points. She read it specifically from the instructions/notes they received in training. Those are the ones that go back to regular use year points without an associated contract line.

Unfortunately I won't know for sure one way or the other on that aspect for awhile. I still have my doubts that it will go back to a specific contract, as both Ron's and the other VC I spoke to said they would not.


----------



## ecwinch

Bigrob said:


> I am looking for ways to make it more accessible for all owners, and it's clear we disagree about the impact of Wyndham grabbing all the available inventory at 30 days and most of it at 60 days. Wouldn't it make more sense to NOT block that inventory, but just make reservations as they get them through EH? More units available for all, and no conflict of interest.



If you look at reservation availability at the 60 to 30 day mark, I do not find any evidence that Wyndham is systematically moving inventory into EH to the extent your comments imply.

If Wyndham were, I think we would see resorts with high rental potential literally disappear at the 30 day mark. But right now Bonnet Creek is dark green between Aug 22 and Sept 2. You are implying that we should see nothing, as Wyndham would grab all that inventory as fast as they can.


----------



## Bigrob

ecwinch said:


> If you look at reservation availability at the 60 to 30 day mark, I do not find any evidence that Wyndham is systematically moving inventory into EH to the extent your comments imply.
> 
> If Wyndham were, I think we would see resorts with high rental potential literally disappear at the 30 day mark. But right now Bonnet Creek is dark green between Aug 22 and Sept 2. You are implying that we should see nothing, as Wyndham would grab all that inventory as fast as they can.



LOL. I am guessing you don't do too many rentals. That is a slow time at Bonnet Creek. (See Chart). Southern schools are back in session, which kills the drive-to volume. And northerners seem to prefer winter/spring breaks. There are other threads about availability at Bonnet Creek (when there is high demand) - at first we wondered if there was a maintenance event there, but it was confirmed to me - by Wyndham - that they do grab all the inventory at 30 days as it's cancelled during certain periods at Bonnet Creek. I'm not saying they grab all the inventory everywhere at 30 days. You can find Fairfield Glade almost anytime you look. But if you are looking for something desirable - the kind of thing a late-booking owner might actually want - it doesn't return to inventory because it is grabbed by Wyndham. My guess - and it's a pretty well-educated guess - is that Wyndham/Extra Holidays use a program to determine appropriate inventory levels based on demand. At high demand times, the desired inventory level is going to be higher than available inventory, so the program grabs everything.


----------



## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> One would think that having been deceived by Wyndham sales already, ...



This is another misinterpretation.  My only developer purchase was with an independent timeshare at Lake Tahoe in 1994.

All my timeshares purchased since then have been resale.

I have never been deceived by Wyndham sales.


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> At my first presentation and purchase , the salesperson somehow forgot to mention anything about ongoing maintenance fees.  Imagine my surprise when that first bill showed up, and what it did for my per-vacation cost analysis versus what the salesperson presented.  Timeshare salespeople stretch the truth and outright lie.  So what is new?



I think it's easy to see how I could infer you were referring to Wyndham sales. The whole thread has been about Wyndham, not random third party timeshare hucksters. I'm glad for the clarification that you were not deceived by Wyndham sales.


----------



## ecwinch

Bigrob said:


> LOL. I am guessing you don't do too many rentals. That is a slow time at Bonnet Creek. (See Chart). Southern schools are back in session, which kills the drive-to volume. And northerners seem to prefer winter/spring breaks. There are other threads about availability at Bonnet Creek (when there is high demand) - at first we wondered if there was a maintenance event there, but it was confirmed to me - by Wyndham - that they do grab all the inventory at 30 days as it's cancelled during certain periods at Bonnet Creek. I'm not saying they grab all the inventory everywhere at 30 days. You can find Fairfield Glade almost anytime you look. But if you are looking for something desirable - the kind of thing a late-booking owner might actually want - it doesn't return to inventory because it is grabbed by Wyndham. My guess - and it's a pretty well-educated guess - is that Wyndham/Extra Holidays use a program to determine appropriate inventory levels based on demand. At high demand times, the desired inventory level is going to be higher than available inventory, so the program grabs everything.



So Week 35 - Aug 28-Sep 4 (Fri-Fri) - is not a week in high demand?


----------



## Ty1on

ecwinch said:


> So Week 35 - Aug 28-Sep 4 (Fri-Fri) - is not a week in high demand?



School has sprung by then, no?


----------



## Bigrob

ecwinch said:


> So Week 35 - Aug 28-Sep 4 (Fri-Fri) - is not a week in high demand?



Not this year, because Labor Day is late. Falls in week 36.


----------



## Bigrob

Ty1on said:


> School has sprung by then, no?



He's referring to the demand chart I posted but didn't offset due to the holiday being late.


----------



## antjmar

Bigrob said:


> LOL. I am guessing you don't do too many rentals. That is a slow time at Bonnet Creek. (See Chart).


Interesting chart. I dont do  rentals in FL . I'm surprised week 26 and 27 are so Popular in Florida...  last place I'd want to be in July 
Is that chart from Wyndham?


----------



## Ty1on

antjmar said:


> Interesting chart. I dont do  rentals in FL . I'm surprised week 26 and 27 are so Popular in Florida...  last place I'd want to be in July
> Is that chart from Wyndham?



Remember all those poor slave families who are held prisoner by the school calendar.  Like mine.


----------



## Bigrob

antjmar said:


> Interesting chart. I dont do  rentals in FL . I'm surprised week 26 and 27 are so Popular in Florida...  last place I'd want to be in July
> Is that chart from Wyndham?



Nooooooooo.

I once tried to get such a chart. For some reason that was considered proprietary information. But I did get an occupancy report by resort which was interesting.


----------



## Ty1on

Bigrob said:


> Nooooooooo.
> 
> I once tried to get such a chart. For some reason that was considered proprietary information. But I did get an occupancy report by resort which was interesting.



I'm amazed you were able to get an Occ report.


----------



## antjmar

Ty1on said:


> Remember all those poor slave families who are held prisoner by the school calendar.  Like mine.


Like mine?
Central florida in July no thanks My family will be on the beach
Like Bigrob said us northerners prefer Florida during spring break!
Ill be there in April!


----------



## Ty1on

antjmar said:


> Like mine?
> Central florida in July no thanks My family will be on the beach
> Like Bigrob said us northerners prefer Florida during spring break!
> Ill be there in April!



You are fortunate to live where the summers are mostly beautiful.  Imaging having to tow your family from Flariduh to a temperate climate.  SC.  Keep driving.  NC?  Nope.  Va.?  Getting a little better, but it's still sticky out.  MD?  roll up the windows, lock the doors, and keep driving with the hope we can make it to the WVa mountains or CT on this tank of gas. :rofl:


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## Bigrob

Ty1on said:


> I'm amazed you were able to get an Occ report.



I believe it was a bit of an accident. But you never know what you might get if you ask for it. Ron has gotten a treasure trove of information on his visits.


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## whitewater

*Wyndham Program Updates*

Stumbled across a couple of new changes.  Under the "whats new" & "program rules & guidelines updates" section 2 topics caught my interest.  I had not heard about the 2nd aspect of the program changes.  

I will be interested to see if it truely does in fact open up more units.  

Supplement Attached wit more details.  Credit pool changes have been discussed a lot but this 2nd change was new to me.  Thoughts or ideas how many units will be opened up based on this or other impacts I'm thinking about?  


*
From Wyndham:*

In an effort to increase availability, there will be a Nightly Unit Limit on the number of units an owner can book at a single resort of 10 units, or 20 percent of the inventory at that resort affiliated with CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, whichever is less. Going forward, the Nightly Unit Limit should increase availability for more owners at the most sought after resorts. The Nightly Unit Limit applies to new Standard and Express reservations booked after October 1, 2015 (ARP reservations are not limited). This will not impact existing reservations made prior to October 1, unless the reservation is cancelled and, after October 1, a new reservation is confirmed.


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## am1

Is not what a points system should be about.  It has been poorly implemented and I resent my program fees paying for managing it.


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## Bigrob

This change is actually nearly a year old now.


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## Jan M.

*less availability*

In the past year since this was implemented all I have noticed is less availability. Has anyone else noticed that there is little or actually no availability at many resorts. Which is hard to understand when it isn't peak travel season or a high demand time for many of those resorts. 

Another thing I've noticed in the past few months is that there is no availability in the one bedroom units at quite a few resorts. What is up with that? It almost seems if they are trying to force VIP owners to use more points to book their stays by making the smaller units unavailable to use for the free upgrades. In the past it was the larger units that were hard to find. It is usually just my husband and I so a one bedroom unit is fine and I really resent having to use more points to book something larger because Wyndham is playing games.


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## ilya

I have also noticed less availability. At Daytona 13 months out  little to no availability July 4th.  I was told they don't release all the inventory to deeded owner ARP. They hold some back for the 10 month out owners.   But, after looking on some rental sites and ebay advertising, I came across Triptivity By Wyndham rental program which states they guarantee availability . After calling the number I found it was a pilot program to get NEW owners. I guess they hold certain units for this program as well.


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## raygo123

ilya said:


> I have also noticed less availability. At Daytona 13 months out  little to no availability July 4th.  I was told they don't release all the inventory to deeded owner ARP. They hold some back for the 10 month out owners.   But, after looking on some rental sites and ebay advertising, I came across Triptivity By Wyndham rental program which states they guarantee availability . After calling the number I found it was a pilot program to get NEW owners. I guess they hold certain units for this program as well.


That has always been the case.  Not all units are CWA, not part of the trust.  In fact the percentage is low.  As CWA, you only have access to the units in the trust during the ARP period.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## ilya

I own at Daytona  and CWA. I was using my ARP in Daytona when I was told of this. I understand about ARP in CWA ., and the availability of units.


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## raygo123

There is a thread on tug entitled triplicity by Wyndham.  Somewhere around February or March.  Wyndham holds points and deeds, if they don't sell or rent them it's a lost opportunity.

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