# 8,400 annual points @ Hilton Hawaiian Village for $3,995???



## PamMo (Feb 15, 2010)

Anybody ever heard of Sterling Group? They're offering a platinum 8,400 annual points timeshare at HHV for Buy It Now price of $3,995.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130367449571&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123 
Great deal - if it's for real. They will not let you use an independent closing company. Never heard of Sterling Group, and don't see much of a history on eBay. (Other than a multiple buyer named Wes - the same name of the guy who replied to my email...hmmmm???) A quick web search doesn't turn up anything to give you confidence. What do you think? Too good to be true?


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## Amy (Feb 15, 2010)

Those positive seller ratings definitely look suspicious, particularly if you also heard from "Wes" in response to the listing.  

What really irritates me about this eBay listing is that it looks like the seller misappropriated the HGVC chart on the TUG advice page without seeking permission (as far as I'm aware after checking with Brian) or posting a link to TUG for credit.  Now I realize there are only so many ways to duplicate the points chart from the member handbooks.  But this looks like a copy/paste job from TUG's [now slightly outdated] Advice page right down to the "***Notes*" under the Club Points Use Chart.  Another factor that indicates this eBay seller copied TUG's chart -- the TUG chart was created (by me) back when there were far fewer bedroom designation so only Studio, 1 Bedroom, 2 Bedroom and 3 Bedroom whereas now HGVC has more than twice that number in room category designations.


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## PamMo (Feb 15, 2010)

*Sold within a couple of hours of listing*

There were four bidders on that auction - so it "sold" very quickly at their But It Now price. Not surprising - it was a great deal. If the buyer is a TUGger, please let us know how the sale works out. 

I think Hilton might exercise ROFR at that price.


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## sjuhawk_jd (Feb 15, 2010)

*I bought it!*

Well, I bought it at "buy it now".

The seller appears to have two ebay accounts and they both have left feedback for each other (while making the items private, so I can not see what were the item that were bought and sold between the same person). Very suspicious indeed! He has sent me a paypal invoice within seconds of the auction closing. I have asked him to provide an estoppel from the resort. Will keep you posted. Does hawaii has ROFR?
Is the MF of just above $1000 for a 8400 point package in Hawii correct?


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## annenp (Feb 15, 2010)

Sounds Like A Major Scam!!!!


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## Talent312 (Feb 15, 2010)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> Does hawaii has ROFR?
> Is the MF of just above $1000 for a 8400 point package in Hawii correct?



Yes. They have ROFR.. and I think there's a good chance they'll use it.
Search and ye shall find a thread from last Fall on various MF's.


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## Amy (Feb 15, 2010)

Seriously, why would you want to send over $4000 to (1) someone with such a suspicious ebay feedback record who has (2) a listing that indicates no outside 3rd party closing company, and (3) a person willing to sell this timeshare at a seriously below even this lousy market buy it now price?  

Also, I have no idea if the name is a mere coincidence, but could this news announcement be referring to the same business?


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## JonathanIT (Feb 15, 2010)

Amy said:


> Seriously, why would you want to send over $4000 to (1) someone with such a suspicious ebay feedback record who has (2) a listing that indicates no outside 3rd party closing company, and (3) a person willing to sell this timeshare at a seriously below even this lousy market buy it now price?


I agree, with such a sketchy eBay profile, ROFR would be the last of my concerns.  I would run, not walk, away from this seller!  No way would I send any money without some kind of protection.


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## PamMo (Feb 15, 2010)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> Well, I bought it at "buy it now".



Hey, I'm happy to hear you won the bid. You've definitely got more guts than I have! I was very tempted to give it a go, but just didn't want to deal with the headache. I still have my doubts that it's legit, but I've read enough of your posts to think you're too saavy to get scammed. If they think they've got a sucker on the line, they're in for a rude awakening.

Good luck on the sale and let us know how it goes, OK? If it works out, you deserve a standing ovation for a good deal!


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## sjuhawk_jd (Feb 15, 2010)

PamMo said:


> sjuhawk_jd said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I bought it at "buy it now".
> ...


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## amisco (Feb 16, 2010)

*Enlarge  8400 PLATINUM POINTS @ HILTON LAS VEGAS STRIP  listing looks suspicios*

There is another listing for a 8400 Point PLATINUM POINTS @ HILTON LAS VEGAS STRIP which looks very similar to the one bought here...although it lists a different seller.  I have tracked the HVAC listings haven't seen either listing... you have to search under "hilton" not HVAC.... the unit says it is a two bedroom Platnum unit... although the chart lists that it probably should be a 3 bedroom to get the point level....very curious


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## Talent312 (Feb 16, 2010)

amisco said:


> I have tracked the HVAC listings haven't seen either listing...



I doubt that you'd find any... 
"HVAC" is an acronym for Heating, _Ventilating_ & Air Conditioning.

..._(It was late)_


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## sjuhawk_jd (Feb 16, 2010)

Talent312 said:


> I doubt that you'd find any...
> "HVAC" is an acronym for Heating, Venting & Air Conditioning.



That's sound right to describe HGVC on these boards. Lot of "venting" by frustrated buyers who bought directly from the developer  

"Ventilating" or "Ventilation" maybe?


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## Bill4728 (Feb 16, 2010)

There is NO WAY that HGVC will not use their ROFR on a Plat contract for $3999

Hilton is one of the few developers which is still using their ROFR. (granted they are not using it much)


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## amisco (Feb 16, 2010)

*will teach me to post late at night..*

I admit that I was wrong....I meant HGVC....  Thanks Talent312... 

Talent312	
Quote:
Originally Posted by amisco  
I have tracked the HVAC listings haven't seen either listing...
I doubt that you'd find any... 
"HVAC" is an acronym for Heating, Ventilating & Air Conditioning.

...(It was late)


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## Amy (Feb 16, 2010)

Bill4728 said:


> There is NO WAY that HGVC will not use their ROFR on a Plat contract for $3999
> 
> Hilton is one of the few developers which is still using their ROFR. (granted they are not using it much)



Well, one possibility is to lie about the actual sales price on the contract . . . . not that I'm saying that is what buyer will do here.  It wouldn't surprise me if someone would to avoid rofr.


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## Catguy (Feb 16, 2010)

Amy said:


> Well, one possibility is to lie about the actual sales price on the contract . . . .


What incentive would a seller have to accept LESS than what Hilton would pay?  Hypothetically speaking...


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## Talent312 (Feb 16, 2010)

Amy said:


> Well, one possibility is to lie about the actual sales price on the contract . . . . not that I'm saying that is what buyer will do here.  It wouldn't surprise me if someone would to avoid rofr.



I'm sure that it happens.
However, HGVC would be within their rights to audit the transaction. Thus, unless the parties can substantiate payment of the stated price thru closing statements, cancelled checks, deposit receipts and tax payments, they need to prepared for the possibility of being sued and prosecuted for fraud, which in many states is a felony.


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## Amy (Feb 16, 2010)

Talent312 said:


> I'm sure that it happens.
> However, HGVC would be within their rights to audit the transaction. Thus, unless the parties can substantiate payment of the stated price thru closing statements, cancelled checks, deposit receipts and tax payments, they need to prepared for the possibility of being sued and prosecuted for fraud, which in many states is a felony.



My recollection of the rofr process was that HGVC only requested a copy of the contract of sale.  What you've described is _possible_ but it isn't, to my knowledge, part of the regular practice so likely _not probable._


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## hvacrsteve (Feb 16, 2010)

It is possible it is in a company name or LLC and the entire LLC is being transferred and not the actual time share, an actual good reason to put a time share in an LLC.
I don't know of course, but possible.


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## bizaro86 (Feb 16, 2010)

> It is possible it is in a company name or LLC and the entire LLC is being transferred and not the actual time share, an actual good reason to put a time share in an LLC.
> I don't know of course, but possible.



It would be sad if someone bought an LLC with a timeshare in it, that also had other liabilities. No reason that an LLC couldn't also have a loan registered in it, that you would then be responsible for if you wanted the timeshare.

Michael


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## Talent312 (Feb 16, 2010)

But again, whether or not HGVC uses its ROFR, the seller gets paid the same.
Why bother to shield it? Why care at all if HGVC steps in?


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## sjuhawk_jd (Feb 16, 2010)

Talent312 said:


> But again, whether or not HGVC uses its ROFR, the seller gets paid the same.
> Why bother to shield it? Why care at all if HGVC steps in?



You shield it because of a concept known as "customer service." Hilton is going to give the seller money because a "customer" is willing to purchase it at that price! No customer, no Hilton. So, instead of using customer to give a deal to Hilton, let's shield!


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## Jon77 (Feb 16, 2010)

*8400 Points*

sjuhawk_jd Please keep us posted on how this turns out!

Jon


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## travelbugs (Feb 17, 2010)

There's a 5000 pt International Drive right now with bids up to $1675 and less than 20 min. left.:annoyed:


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## pianodinosaur (Feb 17, 2010)

travelbugs said:


> There's a 5000 pt International Drive right now with bids up to $1675 and less than 20 min. left.:annoyed:



It just went for $3650.  Pretty rapid bidding the last 20 minutes.  It certainly looks like the value of our Orlando timeshares has gone down quite a bit.


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## travelbugs (Feb 17, 2010)

And just when I was feeling good about my .90/pt purchase....


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## yumdrey (Feb 17, 2010)

travelbugs said:


> There's a 5000 pt International Drive right now with bids up to $1675 and less than 20 min. left.:annoyed:



The auction was done at $3,650.00
Usually ebay auctions stay low biddings/low prices until 20-40 second before ending.


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## robertr55 (Feb 18, 2010)

travelbugs said:


> And just when I was feeling good about my .90/pt purchase....



If it makes you feel any better, there was also an 8400-point eBay sale on Feb 10 (from Seth, for the Hilton Village Lagoon Tower) for $21,000 ($2.50/pt).

$3995 does sound MUCH better though, doesn't it? Guess we'll see if it works out...


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## sjuhawk_jd (Feb 18, 2010)

*Kid me not!*



robertr55 said:


> If it makes you feel any better, there was also an 8400-point eBay sale on Feb 10 (from Seth, for the Hilton Village Lagoon Tower) for $21,000 ($2.50/pt).
> 
> $3995 does sound MUCH better though, doesn't it? Guess we'll see if it works out...



I just checked on ebay and you are not kidding! I think I am opening champagne tonight


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## sjuhawk_jd (Apr 2, 2010)

*Transaction appears to be Kaput!*

With great unhappiness, I am reporting that this transaction appears to have gone Kaput (bad). I paid the seller on Feb 15th via paypal (credit card) after several days of discussions on the phone. He also mailed me a contract which he signed and I have the contract. Money went to the seller and not to any closing company or escrow company. 

(1) The deal that seller explained to me is that he (Wes Martin) opened a company called Sterling Group LLC to get in the business of timeshares, the company was not doing all that great, but he got this 8400 HGVC from a couple in Florida who traded him these points in return for a non-Hilton timeshare in Florida. The couple just wanted a week in Florida instead of compexity of the points. He had the couple sign over the papers to him, he just have to fill out the name of the buyer. The ROFR will not be applicable since it is a timeshare trade (swap) and no cash. Here are the details on his company:

The Sterling Group Llc
PO Box 4524 
Johnson City, TN 37602 (877) 419-3338 

Vacation consulting services

(2) I checked with Hilton resale and they said that this was possible to do. 

(3) I asked to speak with the Hilton owner and Wes said that they were not reachable since they had gone to Canada for Olympics. 

(4) Now seller (Wes Martin) is not returning calls or emails for the last 4 weeks. I have since left him a negative feedback on ebay, reported him to ebay for manipulation of feedback as discussed earlier in this thread, and also notified ebay about problems with this transaction. I have now learned that for "real estate" transactions, there is no protection from paypal or ebay and my only recourse is now through the credit card company. 

(5) Seller also provided me with a Hilton account number (without the names of the account holders). When I tried to reach HGVC, they will not tell me anything about this account. Before I sent the payment, seller also sent me a scanned page of the recorded deed that shows this ownership (the page does not have the name of the owner either). 

Overall, it is possible that the seller may turn around at some point. Meanwhile, I am looking for suggestions on what else to do. I have done some tremendous deals through ebay (including three successful deals through Kaput Wantedweeks.com), but somehow my "greed" got the better of me on this one!


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## Sandy VDH (Apr 2, 2010)

So can you dispute the charge on your CC.? At least then you are not out the funds.

Hey, the Olympics are over, or did they not notice that.  I would assume they are back, but just keeping out of touch.  Keep us updated.  Keep us updated.


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## jsb15 (Apr 2, 2010)

Good luck on getting a refund from your credit card company but they may also have restrictions on applicable transactions.  Re-reading the thread you had the sophistication to be highly suspicious of this offer but I guess the hope of a smoking deal made you overlook red flags.  Many of us have done well with ebay transactions and I even used a closing agent owned by the seller but if it looks way too good to be true, .....


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## ricoba (Apr 2, 2010)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> ...somehow my "greed" got the better of me on this one!



Don't be too hard on yourself, even though I think you learned a hard lesson the hard way, I do hope you get your $$$ back...but I guess the lesson is, when it's too good to be true...


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## brp (Apr 2, 2010)

Sandy Lovell said:


> So can you dispute the charge on your CC.? At least then you are not out the funds.



Even this may be tough. With vendors that take credit cards, I believe that they have some money on deposit with the CC companies, or some other recourse for the company to deal with disputes. If it's Paypal, they pay some percentage fee, and then get cash (I've not done this, but that's my understanding). As a result, I'm not sure who the credit card company would go after in this case. Best of luck, and do let us know how this develops.

Cheers.


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## sjuhawk_jd (Apr 2, 2010)

*More bad news*

When I googled his name, city combination, I found this link for him/Sterling Group LLC (somehow this did not show up when I googled Sterling Group LLC while doing my due diligence):

http://www.bbb.org/knoxville/busine...es/sterling-group-in-johnson-city-tn-90007750

BBB Rating
Based on BBB files, this business has a BBB Rating of F on a scale from A+ to F.
Reasons for this rating include:
•17 complaints filed against business
•Failure to respond to 14 complaints filed against business.
•BBB does not have sufficient information to determine how long this business has been operating.
•BBB does not have sufficient background information on this business.


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## teepeeca (Apr 2, 2010)

*sjuhawk jd*

Not sure about your cc company, but, you "might" have a "small ray of hope", since it still is within the 60 day timeframe from your billing by the cc company.

They might say that you are out of luck, BUT, file a written dispute, with the cc company regarding this transaction.  You have nothing to lose, except the cost of a postage stamp and a bit of your time.

Tony


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## sjuhawk_jd (Apr 2, 2010)

Called the credit card company and they have given me the temporary credit for the entire amount and have put the amount in dispute. I did explain the situation to them.


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## vacationdoc (Apr 2, 2010)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> Called the credit card company and they have given me the temporary credit for the entire amount and have put the amount in dispute. I did explain the situation to them.



That sounds encouraging.  Good Luck.


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## teepeeca (Apr 3, 2010)

*sjuhwak  jd*

To have a "chance" with your cc company, You MUST file the dispute in WRITING !!!  A "phone call" will NOT work, and is an unacceptable venue with the cc company !!!

IF you look at the "filing a dispute" with the cc cpmpany, it "spells-out" exactly how/what you have to do.

Just trying to "help you out", so you "won't be taken"---OR---it won't be "too late" to file the dispute.

Tony


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## Talent312 (Apr 3, 2010)

teepeeca said:


> To have a "chance" with your cc company, You MUST file the dispute in WRITING !!!  A "phone call" will NOT work, and is an unacceptable venue with the cc company !!! IF you look at the "filing a dispute" with the cc cpmpany, it "spells-out" exactly how/what you have to do.



However, you may also be able to initiate a "written" dispute via the internet while logged into your account. Some CC issuers have an elaborate online procedure for disputing a specific charge using their online secure communication system. You typically check off the charge from a list (or you describe the charge on a form) and the give the reason, either a brief description, or checking on of their standard grounds. Typically, they'll respond in kind, first acknowleging receipt and then with a decision.

This process should be clearly labeled as "dispute a charge" or similar, and not merely as an "inquiry." I've done this successfully with American Express, Bank of America, CitiBank -- I had to respond via internet to Citi a few times over a mundane utility charge, but they did ultimately give me a credit. this way.


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## robertr55 (Apr 4, 2010)

Also - not to change the subject (too much), but there's a yearly 8400pt HGVC listing (Waikaloa) right here on the TUG marketplace for $5000...no clue if the folks behind it are any better than what you're already going through from the eBay listing.


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## PamMo (Apr 5, 2010)

*Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that!!!*

sjuhawk_jd, I was looking forward to hearing you got a really good deal on those HGVC points! So sorry to hear that it's gone bad. The eBay seller had me spooked from the beginning, but I tend to be overly cautious and have lost out on some great buys - and kicked myself later for being so timid.

Hopefully, the CC company will come through for you on the dispute. I always use a credit card when going through PayPal. It's given me extra protection when there was a dispute - and I haven't gotten burned - yet.  Good luck on your refund, and may a legitimate _awesome _deal come your way soon!


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## sjuhawk_jd (Sep 1, 2010)

*Update*

Although I got my money back through the CC, I reported this company to the Knoxville BBB. Today, I got an email from them to contact a lawyer who has been retained by someone for a civil suit against Mr. Martin of the Sterling Group, LLC (Johnson City, TN) and also to contact a police investigator who is looking into this case.


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## pianodinosaur (Sep 1, 2010)

sorry about all that aggravation.  

If you were to purchase HGVC resale I would suggest Judi or Seth.


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## Garnet (Sep 2, 2010)

*Happy to read you got your money back!*

Would have been a terrific deal.  And that's why ebay prices are so cheap.  Folks here will often claim ebay as a "market value" or standard resale pricing.  They are not.  (Well, ok an ebay market value...)  Ebay is bottom of the barrel pricing, for a reason...  I, too purchased from Wantedweeks-so I know!  Took me months to straighten out that mess.  Plus, another seller (I forget the name) went belly up in the middle of the transaction.  I was lucky-I ended up with the weeks.  Although, I did get to pay mf twice...  

And, you did your due diligence. I'd be happy you were diligent about pursuing your cc company and they were diligent about refunding you your money.  Congratulations on that.  That is worth popping open a bottle of champagne.


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