# Wyndham exercised ROFR



## joanncanary (Jun 2, 2021)

I was purchasing a club access contract of 210,000 points for less than 1000 and just heard that they were exercising their ROFR. Very sad. It was the perfect amount of points that I wanted to add on. I never before heard of them doing this


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## Jan M. (Jun 2, 2021)

That's very likely the first any of us have heard of Wyndham exercising ROFR. If Wyndham doesn't exercise ROFR on PR resales it's really hard to believe they're going to do it on a measly little 210k CWA resale. There are typically a lot of CWA listings sold on eBay and many of them are for a whole lot more points than this. And they've sold for under $1k. Is the seller using this as an excuse to back out of the deal?


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## Lisa P (Jun 2, 2021)

Will be VERY curious to hear more, whether this is legit.


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## wjappraise (Jun 2, 2021)

Jan M. said:


> That's very likely the first any of us have heard of Wyndham exercising ROFR. If Wyndham doesn't exercise ROFR on PR resales it's really hard to believe they're going to do it on a measly little 210k CWA resale. There are typically a lot of CWA listings sold on eBay and many of them are for a whole lot more points than this. And they've sold for under $1k. Is the seller using this as an excuse to back out of the deal?



It has to be an excuse used by the seller. Might be good to ask for proof of the ROFR being exercised. 

I simply don’t believe it without proof.


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## joanncanary (Jun 2, 2021)

This has been been going on since February and I don’t really trust them I was working thru timely acquisitions, someone named Rebecca. I just asked for a copy, we shall see what happens. What would be my recourse if the buyers did just back out?


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## troy12n (Jun 2, 2021)

There will be plenty of others out there. CWA points are dime a dozen on the resale market



joanncanary said:


> This has been been going on since February and I don’t really trust them I was working thru timely acquisitions, someone named Rebecca. I just asked for a copy, we shall see what happens. What would be my recourse if the buyers did just back out?



Leave negative feedback and complain to ebay...


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## joanncanary (Jun 2, 2021)

Well it’s official

_*Moderator Note*: This post was reported out of concern by a fellow TUGger because the attachment contained identifying/contact information for the poster (information which may/could be harvested by bad guys who search sites like TUG for phishing and other nasty online activity.) As the first mod to come across the report I've chosen to delete the attachment but have sent a PM to the poster letting her know that she's free to re-attach the letter if desired. Me? I'd summarize and just quote the important info.  <-- SueDonJ_


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## dgalati (Jun 2, 2021)

joanncanary said:


> This has been been going on since February and I don’t really trust them I was working thru timely acquisitions, someone named Rebecca. I just asked for a copy, we shall see what happens. What would be my recourse if the buyers did just back out?


I have bought a few deeds from Timely Acquisitions and they were great to work with. I would be surprised if they tried to use it as a way to back out of a deal.


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## dgalati (Jun 2, 2021)

joanncanary said:


> Well it’s official


Looks like Wyndham found a way to buy without using a third party. This might help the resale price from being close to $0.


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## dgalati (Jun 2, 2021)

troy12n said:


> There will be plenty of others out there. CWA points are dime a dozen on the resale market
> 
> 
> 
> Leave negative feedback and complain to ebay...


Ebay is like the wild west. Negative feedback usually cant be left after 60 days. This is why most resellers ask for feedback before it closes.


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## Lisa P (Jun 2, 2021)

joanncanary said:


> Well it’s official


WOW! 
That IS. Very. Big. News.
Thank you for sharing the document.


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## wjappraise (Jun 2, 2021)

joanncanary said:


> Well it’s official



Wow. 

Thanks for sharing. I was officially wrong! Don’t let that get out. 

In fact, please suspend this thread as me being wrong is socially contentious. 

Wes.


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## Jan M. (Jun 2, 2021)

I read the letter and find it very hard to believe. I'm wondering what's going on. When Wyndham can take back anything they want via Certified Exit for absolutely nothing why in the world would they pay for something. Especially pay $1k for a measly little 210k CWA points. Just a few months ago a TUG member sold a CWA contract of around 775K points for less than that on eBay. And there have been plenty of other larger point CWA contracts that have also gone for around $1k if not less.

Does it not make sense to anyone else that Wyndham would suddenly set an expectation that owners could actually get paid instead of giving back points and getting nothing for them via Certified Exit?


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## wjappraise (Jun 2, 2021)

Jan M. said:


> I read the letter and find it very hard to believe. I'm wondering what's going on. When Wyndham can take back anything they want via Certified Exit for absolutely nothing why in the world would they pay for something. Especially pay $1k for a measly little 210k CWA points. Just a few months ago a TUG member sold a CWA contract of around 775K points for less than that on eBay. And there have been plenty of other larger point CWA contracts that have also gone for around $1k if not less.
> 
> Does it not make sense to anyone else that Wyndham would suddenly set an expectation that owners could actually get paid instead of giving back points and getting nothing for them via Certified Exit?



I’m wondering if the title company (or post card company) understated their price when informing Wyndham of the sale. I know I’ve seen that before on some of the deeds I’ve purchased.

Or maybe certified exit isn’t generating enough new inventory.  

Wes


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## arcsinx (Jun 2, 2021)

wjappraise said:


> I’m wondering if the title company (or post card company) understated their price when informing Wyndham of the sale. I know I’ve seen that before on some of the deeds I’ve purchased.
> 
> Or maybe certified exit isn’t generating enough new inventory.
> 
> Wes



That may be indeed what's going on. With Covid restrictions easing up and travel surges in high swing, could it be that demand for new inventory is forcing Wyndham to change strategies? If so, this would be big for Wyndham owners and prospective buyers.


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## Jan M. (Jun 2, 2021)

Joann also posted about this in the Wyndham Facebook group. One person who responded said they also bought something at the beginning of February and the points were put into their account two weeks ago. However that person didn't say whether they bought CWA points or deeded points and who they bought through.

If you look at all the sold and completed listings for CWA points on eBay just in the last two months it seems strange that this is the first time we're hearing of this. Has anyone ever seen anything in their contract or deed paperwork that says Wyndham has ROFR?


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## Ty1on (Jun 2, 2021)

joanncanary said:


> Well it’s official



I find it hard to believe that the ROFR letter is on "WVR" letterhead without a graphic logo or mention of the T+L branding, or even the Wyndham Destinations name change they took on two years ago. they took on months ago, and that it is not signed by a contact representative in Title Services.  I'm not saying it's a counterfeit, but it wouldn't be the first.


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## Jan M. (Jun 2, 2021)

Okay here's why I'm having so much trouble believing this and think there's some other explanation.

Joann said she bought in February. Say that Wyndham processes 50 resale transfers a day Monday-Friday. I think that's probably a pretty conservative number. That would be from every single owner and reseller out there and we know there are plenty of resellers. There's a lot more being sold than just what see on eBay. If we start with February 16th, the day after President's Day, Take off Good Friday, Easter Monday and Memorial Day and there's approximately 73 business days. So 73 days times 50 transfers per day is 3,650 transfers. If you think 50 resale transfers per day is too high then cut that number down to half, so 25 per day, and you still have 1,825 resale transfers! And this is the first anyone's heard of this happening?

The date on the letter is May 7th. But Timely Acquisitions just today got around to telling Joann about a letter dated almost a month ago. There's plenty of resellers a lot more competent than that and yet we haven't heard word one either here on TUG or in any of the Facebook groups about this happening to anyone else.


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## joanncanary (Jun 2, 2021)

There were multiple pages and there was one with the name and signature of someone in the title department. I did not want to post all of the forms as there’s personal info on them. Also the final signature was on 5/19 so it was not final on 5/7


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## Jan M. (Jun 2, 2021)

joanncanary said:


> There were multiple pages and there was one with the name and signature of someone in the title department. I did not want to post all of the forms as there’s personal info on them. Also the final signature was on 5/19 so it was not final on 5/7



I noticed that there were multiple pages. Wyndham has been going after some of the resellers. Did you buy this off eBay? Does Timely Acquisitions have any other Wyndham listings on eBay or wherever you found this one? Have they told you when they will be refunding your money?


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## joanncanary (Jun 2, 2021)

They supposedly refunded it. It may take a few days to show up. The agent told me that there was an ROFR on a previous, much larger club access contract. Maybe it is them and it was from eBay.


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## Jan M. (Jun 3, 2021)

A friend who's fantastic at digging up information sent me this. Under certain circumstances the ROFR is in the contract for CWA.


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## wjappraise (Jun 3, 2021)

arcsinx said:


> That may be indeed what's going on. With Covid restrictions easing up and travel surges in high swing, could it be that demand for new inventory is forcing Wyndham to change strategies? If so, this would be big for Wyndham owners and prospective buyers.



That and no new resorts being added of any real size or substance. I know there a couple small ones being added. But they only bring in a small amount of inventory. 

Gone are the days of a new tower being added to bonnet creek. Or even the much smaller Clearwater beach resort. 

Wes.


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## troy12n (Jun 3, 2021)

wjappraise said:


> That and no new resorts being added of any real size or substance. I know there a couple small ones being added. But they only bring in a small amount of inventory.
> 
> Gone are the days of a new tower being added to bonnet creek. Or even the much smaller Clearwater beach resort.



I don't know how accurate that is. In the last year, we got most, if not all of the Shell inventory added to the system. Also the Wyndham in Portland, and Margaritaville's in Nashville and Atlanta, while not large, and not pure Wyndham inventory, is new investment. 

Worldmark is building a new resort of considerable size in Moab, UT. I'm not sure what new resorts, or expansion of resorts Wyndham has planned in the future, or perhaps may be building now. 

But it's kind of silly to think they won't expand. There's lots of "holes" in areas Wyndham serves. Especially pure Wyndham inventory in the West. But also areas like Savannah, St. Augustine are untapped potential for new resorts. The fascination with Beach resorts in the East kind of bugs me.


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## dgalati (Jun 3, 2021)

joanncanary said:


> They supposedly refunded it. It may take a few days to show up. The agent told me that there was an ROFR on a previous, much larger club access contract. Maybe it is them and it was from eBay.



Most Ebay sellers do have a disclaimer on the possibility of a ROFR.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 3, 2021)

Jan M. said:


> A friend who's fantastic at digging up information sent me this. Under certain circumstances the ROFR is in the contract for CWA.



I think it's not so much certain circumstances as a point in time after which ROFR has been included in the standard T&Cs for every contract sold - at least for those states that permit such contractual verbiage, as I believe there are some states that don't allow for ROFR type contractual verbiage.  Unfortunately I'm not sure when that point in time was - I know it was in my CWA contract signed in July 2018. I suspect ROFR wasn't always embedded into the purchase agreements - which may also help explain the intermittent nature of ROFRs being exercised by Wyndham. 

It's also worth mentioning that Wyndham has been purchasing resale contracts via third parties for years now.  @dgalati has seen this firsthand during his travels - where he noticed that Wyndham was the acquiring entity behind the third party resale transfer when selling some of his previous contracts.  Dominic can correct me if I'm wrong here.  Point being, Wyndham has been taking an "all of the above" approach to acquiring resale contracts for the past few years - including Certified Exit (previously Ovations), third party resale companies, etc.  If they can pay out $1k for 210k points, then sell those 210k points at $150/1000 via their retail sales and marketing division - that's over 30k in gross profits.


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## Lisa P (Jun 3, 2021)

ROFR on a points system like CWA should be a no-brainer source of cheap inventory. Wondering _*when*_ Wyndham began including a ROFR clause in their sales. Sure wasn't in our FairShare Plus (converted from fixed weeks) ownership documents a couple decades ago (yup, I just rechecked). Will be interesting to see whether any more reports surface of Wyndham exercising ROFR and at what price points.


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## tschwa2 (Jun 3, 2021)

Lisa P said:


> ROFR on a points system like CWA should be a no-brainer source of cheap inventory. Wondering _*when*_ Wyndham began including a ROFR clause in their sales. Sure wasn't in our FairShare Plus (converted from fixed weeks) ownership documents a couple decades ago (yup, I just rechecked). Will be interesting to see whether any more reports surface of Wyndham exercising ROFR and at what price points.


CWA had an ROFR from its inception.  I don't know if any of the UDI's have ROFR clauses.


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## wjappraise (Jun 3, 2021)

troy12n said:


> I don't know how accurate that is. In the last year, we got most, if not all of the Shell inventory added to the system. Also the Wyndham in Portland, and Margaritaville's in Nashville and Atlanta, while not large, and not pure Wyndham inventory, is new investment.
> 
> Worldmark is building a new resort of considerable size in Moab, UT. I'm not sure what new resorts, or expansion of resorts Wyndham has planned in the future, or perhaps may be building now.
> 
> But it's kind of silly to think they won't expand. There's lots of "holes" in areas Wyndham serves. Especially pure Wyndham inventory in the West. But also areas like Savannah, St. Augustine are untapped potential for new resorts. The fascination with Beach resorts in the East kind of bugs me.



All Shell inventory comes with existing owners. Zero net gain of inventory. All of the other resorts noted to be added are TINY, ergo very little inventory added. For those paying attention to the hospitality industry as a whole over the past 14 years, and Wyndham strategies in particular, it’s clear they need more inventory if indeed timeshare sales are up. 

Certainly Wyndham has engaged prognosticators far wiser than any of us to analyze the purchase trends expected for the millennials and Gen X and Gen Z buyers. They all purchase differently than Boomers. And it would seem that analysis coupled with the real estate bust of 2007-2014, has lessened the new resort development pace for Wyndham. Recapturing existing inventory lacks the appeal of rolling out new resorts but it has to be massively cheaper. And less risky. We will see how this silly viewpoint is proved wrong or right. My guess is ROFR and eBay corporate buying will increase. 

Just one dude’s opinion.


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## Jan M. (Jun 3, 2021)

tschwa2 said:


> CWA had an ROFR from its inception.  I don't know if any of the UDI's have ROFR clauses.



My friend who's excellent at researching went back through their CWA contracts. As of the date of their CWA contract in June 2018 ROFR wasn't in there but on a later contract it was. Craig reported that a July 2018 contract had it in there. So we know that ROFR was added sometime in later June 2018 or at the beginning of July 2018. 

So now we have a date to work with. There likely aren't that many owners who bought developer after July 1, 2018 that are selling what they bought already. That would be a possible explanation of why it hasn't happened often enough for us to have known about it before this.


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## tschwa2 (Jun 3, 2021)

Jan M. said:


> My friend who's excellent at researching went back through their CWA contracts. As of the date of their CWA contract in June 2018 ROFR wasn't in there but on a later contract it was. Craig reported that a July 2018 contract had it in there. So we know that ROFR was added sometime in later June 2018 or at the beginning of July 2018.
> 
> So now we have a date to work with. There likely aren't that many owners who bought developer after July 1, 2018 that are selling what they bought already. That would be a possible explanation of why it hasn't happened often enough for us to have known about it before this.


My understanding is even if it wasn't specifically mentioned on contracts the documents that set up CWA included the ROFR,  that would be enough.  Per a 2013 thread about CWA "Details are covered in Article 9.5 of CWA legal documents which you can obtain from owner relations."

And there are always people who buy developer and are selling at a 90%+ loss within 6 months.  We haven't seen any ROFR because Wyndham hasn't been exercising ROFR before this report.


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## Ty1on (Jun 3, 2021)

troy12n said:


> I don't know how accurate that is. In the last year, we got most, if not all of the Shell inventory added to the system. Also the Wyndham in Portland, and Margaritaville's in Nashville and Atlanta, while not large, and not pure Wyndham inventory, is new investment.
> 
> Worldmark is building a new resort of considerable size in Moab, UT. I'm not sure what new resorts, or expansion of resorts Wyndham has planned in the future, or perhaps may be building now.
> 
> But it's kind of silly to think they won't expand. There's lots of "holes" in areas Wyndham serves. Especially pure Wyndham inventory in the West. But also areas like Savannah, St. Augustine are untapped potential for new resorts. The fascination with Beach resorts in the East kind of bugs me.



In fairness, the Shell inventory added extends only to the new Shell to Club Wyndham conversions.  Shell availability to CWP members extends only to the degree there are converted contracts.

I think Wyndham has been pretty careful about Club Wyndham expansion in the West because they fear oversaturation between the two brands and WorldMark is pretty well known as a good system for Western travel.  Those WorldMark resorts that see less popularity with its own members have had inventory added into the Club Wyndham world to help drive demand.  Outside of that, Wyndham likes to use Plus Partners (giving the ability to exchange between Wyndham and WorldMark for a fee) as a sales tool to entice people to buy developer points in both systems, as resales are not availed to this benefit.  So, in short, I think it is probably a strategic decision to focus WorldMark expansion on the West and Club Wyndham expansion on the East.


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## Jan M. (Jun 3, 2021)

tschwa2 said:


> We haven't seen any ROFR because Wyndham hasn't been exercising ROFR before this report.



According to what my friend found out today from a dependable reseller they've used in the past, yes Wyndham has exercised ROFR on CWA contracts that were developer purchased after July 1, 2018 and since resold. Joann's reseller told her this wasn't the first time they had it happen. I wasn't inclined to trust them as I thought I'd seen some negative posts here on TUG about them. However after having it confirmed by a reliable source I no longer doubt that it's been happening. 

I'm now wondering if Wyndham has price parameters for exercising the ROFR on post July 1, 2018 developer purchased CWA contracts. We know that both DVC and Marriott have price parameters that if aren't met they will exercise ROFR.

Craig, Hitchhiker, and I have speculated on how timeshares might change in the future. We both fully expect to see changes to meet the needs of the younger generations. I would think Wyndham has ideas in development if they don't already have a plan in place that they're gearing up for. Very interesting.


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## Rolltydr (Jun 3, 2021)

troy12n said:


> I don't know how accurate that is. In the last year, we got most, if not all of the Shell inventory added to the system. Also the Wyndham in Portland, and Margaritaville's in Nashville and Atlanta, while not large, and not pure Wyndham inventory, is new investment.
> 
> Worldmark is building a new resort of considerable size in Moab, UT. I'm not sure what new resorts, or expansion of resorts Wyndham has planned in the future, or perhaps may be building now.
> 
> But it's kind of silly to think they won't expand. There's lots of "holes" in areas Wyndham serves. Especially pure Wyndham inventory in the West. But also areas like Savannah, St. Augustine are untapped potential for new resorts. The fascination with Beach resorts in the East kind of bugs me.


I would love to see a Wyndham property in Savannah!


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## troy12n (Jun 3, 2021)

Rolltydr said:


> I would love to see a Wyndham property in Savannah!



As would I... it's a gaping hole. St. Augustine and Savannah are me and my wife's favorite places and we travel there often. I actually own a fixed week timeshare in St. Augustine but would love to have a Wyndham type situation where we could do weekends or "less than a week". Also in Savannah.


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## dgalati (Jun 3, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I think it's not so much certain circumstances as a point in time after which ROFR has been included in the standard T&Cs for every contract sold - at least for those states that permit such contractual verbiage, as I believe there are some states that don't allow for ROFR type contractual verbiage.  Unfortunately I'm not sure when that point in time was - I know it was in my CWA contract signed in July 2018. I suspect ROFR wasn't always embedded into the purchase agreements - which may also help explain the intermittent nature of ROFRs being exercised by Wyndham.
> 
> It's also worth mentioning that Wyndham has been purchasing resale contracts via third parties for years now.  @dgalati has seen this firsthand during his travels - where he noticed that Wyndham was the acquiring entity behind the third party resale transfer when selling some of his previous contracts.  Dominic can correct me if I'm wrong here.  Point being, Wyndham has been taking an "all of the above" approach to acquiring resale contracts for the past few years - including Certified Exit (previously Ovations), third party resale companies, etc.  If they can pay out $1k for 210k points, then sell those 210k points at $150/1000 via their retail sales and marketing division - that's over 30k in gross profits.


A business plan that very few companies can duplicate. @HitchHiker71 you are correct the third party was arranged through Wyndham's preferred resale broker at the time. The broker also disclosed a interest in the third party company that was purchasing from me then selling to Wyndham.  Deeds were recorded within hours of each other on the same day. Transfer time from start to finish was 4-5 weeks from time purchase agreement was signed. This was when normal transfers were running 12-16 weeks. I did not receive more the $500 per deed but purchase agreement stated no points were available for the current use year.


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## troy12n (Jun 3, 2021)

So what exactly does this mean from a "sellers" perspective. If they have an auction that theoretically goes for $1000.00. Does it mean that Wyndham has to pay the seller $1001.00 for it? They can't pay less than whatever the auction goes for? I realize from a buyers perspective, they don't have any recourse. Other than find one of the many other CWA auctions to buy from.


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## dgalati (Jun 3, 2021)

troy12n said:


> So what exactly does this mean from a "sellers" perspective. If they have an auction that theoretically goes for $1000.00. Does it mean that Wyndham has to pay the seller $1001.00 for it? They can't pay less than whatever the auction goes for? I realize from a buyers perspective, they don't have any recourse. Other than find one of the many other CWA auctions to buy from.


Wyndham will pay the agreed to sales price along with terms on closing costs. From a sellers perspective its a nothing burger as the sellers have nothing more to gain or lose on the transaction.


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## wjappraise (Jun 3, 2021)

troy12n said:


> So what exactly does this mean from a "sellers" perspective. If they have an auction that theoretically goes for $1000.00. Does it mean that Wyndham has to pay the seller $1001.00 for it? They can't pay less than whatever the auction goes for? I realize from a buyers perspective, they don't have any recourse. Other than find one of the many other CWA auctions to buy from.



From what I know in the real estate field, ROFR allows them to purchase by meeting the sales price. They don’t need to beat the price. Just meet it. So in your example they would purchase for $1000. 

Wes


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## r4rab (Jun 3, 2021)

troy12n said:


> So what exactly does this mean from a "sellers" perspective. If they have an auction that theoretically goes for $1000.00. Does it mean that Wyndham has to pay the seller $1001.00 for it? They can't pay less than whatever the auction goes for? I realize from a buyers perspective, they don't have any recourse. Other than find one of the many other CWA auctions to buy from.



I don't think Wyndham has to out bid the buyer. I think they just need to pay the seller the sale price they would have received from the buyer (in your example $1000.00). Seller gets the same amount, Wyndham gets the contract, Buyer is SOL.


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## JohnPaul (Jun 3, 2021)

troy12n said:


> I don't know how accurate that is. In the last year, we got most, if not all of the Shell inventory added to the system. Also the Wyndham in Portland, and Margaritaville's in Nashville and Atlanta, while not large, and not pure Wyndham inventory, is new investment.
> 
> Worldmark is building a new resort of considerable size in Moab, UT. I'm not sure what new resorts, or expansion of resorts Wyndham has planned in the future, or perhaps may be building now.
> 
> But it's kind of silly to think they won't expand. There's lots of "holes" in areas Wyndham serves. Especially pure Wyndham inventory in the West. But also areas like Savannah, St. Augustine are untapped potential for new resorts. The fascination with Beach resorts in the East kind of bugs me.



No, you gained access to Shell properties via what Wyndham owned or has gotten Shell owners to convert. You did not get “most if not all the Shell inventory “.


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## troy12n (Jun 3, 2021)

JohnPaul said:


> No, you gained access to Shell properties via what Wyndham owned or has gotten Shell owners to convert. You did not get “most if not all the Shell inventory “.



What I meant is we gained inventory at all shell properties. Which I think is correct. Not all of it, but what the shell owners sold.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 3, 2021)

Jan M. said:


> According to what my friend found out today from a dependable reseller they've used in the past, yes Wyndham has exercised ROFR on CWA contracts that were developer purchased after July 1, 2018 and since resold. Joann's reseller told her this wasn't the first time they had it happen. I wasn't inclined to trust them as I thought I'd seen some negative posts here on TUG about them. However after having it confirmed by a reliable source I no longer doubt that it's been happening.
> 
> I'm now wondering if Wyndham has price parameters for exercising the ROFR on post July 1, 2018 developer purchased CWA contracts. We know that both DVC and Marriott have price parameters that if aren't met they will exercise ROFR.
> 
> Craig, Hitchhiker, and I have speculated on how timeshares might change in the future. We both fully expect to see changes to meet the needs of the younger generations. I would think Wyndham has ideas in development if they don't already have a plan in place that they're gearing up for. Very interesting.



I continue to believe that T&L is central to the overall long term strategy.  Think travel subscriptions - not lifetime purchases.  Think termed leases as opposed to lifetime subscriptions.  I'm certain that Wyndham has statistics on the average lifetimes for contracts before those contracts are handed in via Certified Exit or sold on the secondary markets.  I'm sure this average is decreasing due to differences in traveling habits for the younger generations.  There is nothing preventing Wyndham from holding onto recycled inventory and removing it from CWP and placing it into another exchange meant for a different type of program in the future AFAIK.  They could rent this held inventory for the time being via EH and other websites in the interim.  This is purely speculative on my part to be clear - but it makes a certain kind of sense to me looking at how the millenials, gen x'ers (my generation), and Gen Z'ers want to vacation.  

When attending the update last week at TOTG - Wyndham had bulletin boards advertising "Wyndham TravelUp" program - which I hadn't heard of prior - some type of subscription website that was just launched on May 20, meant for Wyndham owners looking to use their points for hotels, airlines, cruises, etc.  I got a quick look at the website via an iPad that the salesperson had - but the URL was masked.  It felt like this new website was either an online version of Plus Partners, or something related to T&L.  The cruise pricing I saw was pretty good actually.  According to the sales manager, this new function was only available via a new purchase - big surprise right?  Anyone else seen anything about this TravelUp program yet? Could just be the newest sales ploy - but to have official marketing bulletins in the lobby and in the sales center - makes me think it's something new/valid.


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## Jan M. (Jun 3, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I continue to believe that T&L is central to the overall long term strategy.  Think travel subscriptions - not lifetime purchases.  Think termed leases as opposed to lifetime subscriptions.  I'm certain that Wyndham has statistics on the average lifetimes for contracts before those contracts are handed in via Certified Exit or sold on the secondary markets.  I'm sure this average is decreasing due to differences in traveling habits for the younger generations.  There is nothing preventing Wyndham from holding onto recycled inventory and removing it from CWP and placing it into another exchange meant for a different type of program in the future AFAIK.  They could rent this held inventory for the time being via EH and other websites in the interim.  This is purely speculative on my part to be clear - but it makes a certain kind of sense to me looking at how the millenials, gen x'ers (my generation), and Gen Z'ers want to vacation.
> 
> When attending the update last week at TOTG - Wyndham had bulletin boards advertising "Wyndham TravelUp" program - which I hadn't heard of prior - some type of subscription website that was just launched on May 20, meant for Wyndham owners looking to use their points for hotels, airlines, cruises, etc.  I got a quick look at the website via an iPad that the salesperson had - but the URL was masked.  It felt like this new website was either an online version of Plus Partners, or something related to T&L.  The cruise pricing I saw was pretty good actually.  According to the sales manager, this new function was only available via a new purchase - big surprise right?  Anyone else seen anything about this TravelUp program yet? Could just be the newest sales ploy - but to have official marketing bulletins in the lobby and in the sales center - makes me think it's something new/valid.



In talking to other owners about the possible future of timeshares with Wyndham I've described termed leases as a version of the Discovery package. 

A person would pay an upfront cost with no maintenance fees for the use of x number of points over a period of anywhere from 2-10 years. Wyndham could tailor it to fit the buyer, both with the number of points and years. It could be done as the use of a certain number of points annually for x number of years or a total number of points to be used over a certain number of years. I'd expect there would be an option to rent up to a certain number of points should the person need more points in a given year. I'd make it a higher rate to discourage people from buying leases for less points than they would routinely want and need. Also limit the number of points they could rent over the term of their lease. I would also expect there would be the option carry over a limited number of points for a fee should the need arise and again I would make it a higher fee and possibly limit the number of times it could be done. 

Would Wyndham even have to set up a new block of inventory to do this? As long as the CWA contracts and leases they've sold don't exceed the total annual points in CWA there would be no need for separate inventory. It makes sense to market it as telling the potential buyers of these leases that they will have access to all the inventory in CWA just like CWA owners do without the burden of owning anything or paying annual maintenance fees. Of course those maintenance fees are likely to go up astronomically but that won't be a concern for lease holders. And also of course the if those maintenance fees go up big time in the next year the lease holder can expect to pay more if they don't purchase a lease now. New product but some of the same old sales pitches.

I'm sure my ideas are things Wyndham has already considered or have already decided on for what comes next. Clearly there's a market for a new type of product and Wyndham will be meeting that demand. I expect to see this new product within a year or two at most. There will also be a side effect of them offering a product like this that won't make a number of owners happy. And I have no doubt that is also part of Wyndham's plan.


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## WyndhamBarter (Jun 3, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Anyone else seen anything about this TravelUp program yet?



Just noticed a trademark application in progress, filed last month:

https://uspto.report/TM/90690692

There's also a website, but it looks to be a long-standing London based travel agency?
https://www.travelup.com/en-gb/about-us

...definitely different graphics from the trademark application.  Maybe an acquisition
of a small travel agent in the works to get the WWW domain name?


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 3, 2021)

WyndhamBarter said:


> Just noticed a trademark application in progress, filed last month:
> 
> https://uspto.report/TM/90690692
> 
> ...



Yep - that first link is the same logo I saw at the sales center. Good find!  So this does appear legitimate and if they are applying for a trademark then it’s worth something to Wyndham. 

The sales center represented TravelUp as a new members only benefit - but they really didn’t have much info to share since it was supposedly just launched on 5/20.  They said it’s a new Club Wyndham benefit to use our points for travel outside of timesharing - but unlike the current PP program the points to dollars conversions won’t be so out of kilter.  It will be interesting to see where this goes.  

EDIT:  here’s a link to a thread we have going on one of the FB groups regarding TravelUp:









						Supportive Wyndham Timeshare Users | Facebook
					

Bring us your confused, your noob, and undoubtedly bring us your happy owners! This isn’t the place to re-hash negative stories or bring others down. Negativity has no place here and will be...




					www.facebook.com
				




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## meetseti (Jun 3, 2021)

Jan M. said:


> So now we have a date to work with. There likely aren't that many owners who bought developer after July 1, 2018 that are selling what they bought already.


What year did Club Wyndham Access begin?


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 4, 2021)

Jan M. said:


> In talking to other owners about the possible future of timeshares with Wyndham I've described termed leases as a version of the Discovery package.
> 
> A person would pay an upfront cost with no maintenance fees for the use of x number of points over a period of anywhere from 2-10 years. Wyndham could tailor it to fit the buyer, both with the number of points and years. It could be done as the use of a certain number of points annually for x number of years or a total number of points to be used over a certain number of years. I'd expect there would be an option to rent up to a certain number of points should the person need more points in a given year. I'd make it a higher rate to discourage people from buying leases for less points than they would routinely want and need. Also limit the number of points they could rent over the term of their lease. I would also expect there would be the option carry over a limited number of points for a fee should the need arise and again I would make it a higher fee and possibly limit the number of times it could be done.
> 
> ...



Actually I'm glad you mentioned this Jan.  I heard at TOTG last week that you can now double the size of the Discovery package from Wyndham.  IIRC it used to be 400k points and up to two years to use those points?  I heard at TOTG that it's now up to 800k points and up to four years to use those points.  So I think you're onto something - we're just going to see expanded iterations of Discovery for the younger generations that don't want to make any lifetime purchases.

The challenge with the Discovery approach is that it only has a minority of the resorts participating.  The new search filter that was recently suspended - "only show resorts I can book" was targeted to Discovery owners - since they only have like 90(?) of the 24x resorts available to them.  IIRC the resort has to opt in to participate in the Discovery program.  I'm not sure how the inventory for Discovery is managed - is it blocked off from the rest of CWP ownership inventory somehow?  If so, then what I'm talking about is actually already occurring specific to Discovery.  If not, it may just be lumped into CWP inventory just like everything else - in which case there may not be a need for inventory segmentation.  

Specific to the new market - the only constant in life is change.  The older folks typically look at the younger folks and scratch their heads - but that's not going to prevent the changes from occurring.  We can adapt or we can resist.  Peronsally, I choose the former.  Wyndham has a tough divide to manage - I think most of the owner base is aging and doesn't really want systemic change - while the younger generations don't want to buy anything for a lifetime.  Change is therefore inevitable.  How Wyndham manages this is going to be interesting to watch.  I've got my popcorn ready.


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## Eric B (Jun 4, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> The older folks typically look at the younger folks and scratch their heads....



That's the one thing that we can probably bet will not change (and never has).


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## troy12n (Jun 4, 2021)

Eric B said:


> That's the one thing that we can probably bet will not change (and never has).



I think this kind of goes both ways. I'm kind of inbetween "young" and "old" and scratch my heads in both directions. I see a lot of older people out there just ignoring rules (like fake "service animals", hogging chairs in pools and generally acting like they own the place because they've been an owner longer than god) and I see younger people being slobs and having out of control kids and passing out drunk at the pool instead of keeping track of the kids and not cleaning up after themselves

I'm in the middle, kids gone, trying to enjoy myself and keep to myself, while dodging trash the young people leave, and the dog crap from the old couples animals which don't belong there...


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## Jan M. (Jun 4, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Change is therefore inevitable. How Wyndham manages this is going to be interesting to watch. I've got my popcorn ready.



I amuse myself speculating about the future of timesharing with Wyndham.  A glass of red wine pairs well with that. Lol.  

The move from fixed weeks to points met a market need. Having 13 month APR at the resorts and inventory in CWA met a need. Extra Holidays met a need for people who want to stay at Wyndham resorts and it offers easy searching and booking. Both you and I have been saying for several years now that the market's there for a new type of product and Wyndham will once again be coming up with something to meet that need. 

I can see how the no guests restriction for certain resorts for certain dates plays very well to set the stage for debuting a new product. Also a record number of owners wanting to travel and needing to use up their points means there's less available for people who've rented for years and never considered buying. People who were used to renting from owners and often getting very good deals are now finding themselves in for rude awakening this summer. 

COVID delayed either the planning or the implementation of whatever new product is coming. It would be a good idea to make sure it's out and ready to sell no later than mid May, 2022 for Memorial weekend and the start of the summer season. But around the holidays and right before tax refund time would also be good too. That would give people their points to be able to book summer stays. If we were running a betting pool as to when Wyndham will be coming out with this new product, what month, early, mid or late would you pick?


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## dgalati (Jun 4, 2021)

Jan M. said:


> I amuse myself speculating about the future of timesharing with Wyndham.  A glass of red wine pairs well with that. Lol.
> 
> The move from fixed weeks to points met a market need. Having 13 month APR at the resorts and inventory in CWA met a need. Extra Holidays met a need for people who want to stay at Wyndham resorts and it offers easy searching and booking. Both you and I have been saying for several years now that the market's there for a new type of product and Wyndham will once again be coming up with something to meet that need.
> 
> ...


A little harder to find discounts in the 60 day window. If your flexible on travel plans last minute deals are still coming available at least on a 1 bedroom. The problem is finding someone to check for availability constantly. To bad Wyndham doesn't have a wait list like Worldmark. I have used it several times and always able to get a 1 bedroom. I highly doubt a 3-4 bedroom comes up last minute on either Worldmark or Wyndham.


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## jhoug (Jun 5, 2021)

tschwa2 said:


> CWA had an ROFR from its inception.  I don't know if any of the UDI's have ROFR clauses.


A National Harbor UDI contract we bought in 2008 has ROFR


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## Breezy52 (Jun 5, 2021)

I am not sure if this exactly is the same, but right of first refusal is a very smart move if you for instance have of second Trust deed with a person Or a small company.  For example, I take out a loan for 5k this way and I’m paying on it every month. Then the deed is being sold for $1k which I will have to continue paying on as If it is still 5K. I want the option to buy  that deed for $1k.  I can’t blame them for wanting right at first refusal.  
Of course I’d like to see it them have to sell that to an owner at a super reduced price.   Am I thinking straight?


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## Jimag (Jun 6, 2021)

For whatever information provided at updates is worth, two weeks ago at Margaritaville Rio Mar in Puerto Rico, I was told that ROFR is being exercised as a matter of course when Margaritaville points are resold.  This factoid was provided as the reason Margaritaville contracts have become scarce.  I have not been scanning resale offers recently.  Is it accurate to say Margaritaville contracts have become rare on the resale market?


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## wjappraise (Jun 6, 2021)

Jimag said:


> For whatever information provided at updates is worth, two weeks ago at Margaritaville Rio Mar in Puerto Rico, I was told that ROFR is being exercised as a matter of course when Margaritaville points are resold. This factoid was provided as the reason Margaritaville contracts have become scarce. I have not been scanning resale offers recently. Is it accurate to say Margaritaville contracts have become rare on the resale market?



They’ve always been scarce. Far fewer of them compared to Club Access 


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## Jimag (Jun 6, 2021)

wjappraise said:


> They’ve always been scarce. Far fewer of them compared to Club Access
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In fact, I was told Margaritaville contracts have become "unavailable" not "scarce."  By instinct, I avoid absolutes and in this case it made my question unclear.  Margaritaville resale contacts have been offered on occasion.  I bought one a few years ago.  I was told I won't be able to buy another on resale because Wyndham is exercising ROFR on Margaritaville resales.  Have you seen a Margaritaville contract recently?


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## bnoble (Jun 6, 2021)

Jimag said:


> I was told I won't be able to buy another on resale because Wyndham is exercising ROFR on Margaritaville resales.


Maybe. But, this might also be the sales agent's FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) strategy. Given that the agent could solve this "problem" by selling you points directly, my money is on the latter.


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## wjappraise (Jun 6, 2021)

Think this will go ROFR? 









						CLUB WYNDHAM ACCESS 287,000 POINTS - ANNUAL!  | eBay
					

CLUB WYNDHAM ACCESS. 287,000 - ANNUAL POINTS. 287,000 - Annual. this May delay the closing process. The process is waiting for all personal checks to clear before we move forward. Paid in Full, Title is Free and Clear.



					www.ebay.com
				




It’s only 287,000 points and bid all way up to $2,175. 

They will probably leave that sale alone.


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## bendadin (Jun 7, 2021)

Jimag said:


> For whatever information provided at updates is worth, two weeks ago at Margaritaville Rio Mar in Puerto Rico, I was told that ROFR is being exercised as a matter of course when Margaritaville points are resold.  This factoid was provided as the reason Margaritaville contracts have become scarce.  I have not been scanning resale offers recently.  Is it accurate to say Margaritaville contracts have become rare on the resale market?



All of them are becoming scarce. I was told that they cannot retrade a Margaritaville. So if someone wants out, why credit them for their purchase when you can just ROFR it when they try to dump it.


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## Ty1on (Jun 7, 2021)

troy12n said:


> I think this kind of goes both ways. I'm kind of inbetween "young" and "old" and scratch my heads in both directions. I see a lot of older people out there just ignoring rules (like fake "service animals", hogging chairs in pools and generally acting like they own the place because they've been an owner longer than god) and I see younger people being slobs and having out of control kids and passing out drunk at the pool instead of keeping track of the kids and not cleaning up after themselves
> 
> I'm in the middle, kids gone, trying to enjoy myself and keep to myself, while dodging trash the young people leave, and the dog crap from the old couples animals which don't belong there...


Most of the service animal cheaters I see are the younger generation with their emotional support pomeranians.


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## meetseti (Aug 12, 2021)

Update on the ROFR issue: Wyndham did not exercise ROFR on some CWA points I received through Timeshare Nation. The points showed up in my account today.

Every page of the estoppel letter said the contract was subject to ROFR, so I was surprised the deal went through. Since Timeshare Nation's price is zero, why wouldn't Wyndham just take the free points? My best guess is that the estoppel used boilerplate language and these points weren't actually subject to ROFR. I don't know when the former owner acquired them — before or after Wyndham started writing ROFR into its contracts.

Here's a timeline of the transaction:

*April 6*: I signed the contract with Timeshare Nation.
*May 6*: Transfer agent notified me she had submitted the contract to Wyndham for ROFR.
*June 21*: Wyndham requested more paperwork from the sellers and me. More than 30 days had already passed since Wyndham was notified, so I looked back at the estoppel and noticed the language: "Upon Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc. receipt of a written offer* and any additional requested documents*, Wyndham has a period of thirty (30) days to decide on exercising its Right of First Refusal" (emphasis mine). I realized the 30-day time limit is essentially meaningless — Wyndham could stretch this out indefinitely by requesting more documents.
*July 23*: I received Wyndham's Assignment and Assumption Agreement via DocuSign for transfer of the points. The transfer agent called to let me know Wyndham was not exercising ROFR.
*Aug. 12*: The points appeared in my account.


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## 55plus (Aug 13, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> Most of the service animal cheaters I see are the younger generation with their emotional support pomeranians.


Emotional Support Animals and Comfort Animals are not considered Service Animals and are not protected under ADA. The airlines are finally cracking down on the abuse. Wyndham Ocean Walk did when one jumped my dog. I have a service dog due to military injuries. On many occasions and places fake service dogs would bark, growl and at times lunge at mine. In an elevator at Ocean Walk some fat slob and his fake service dog got on the elevator and it jumped my dog. Long story short, Wyndham management forced that dog off the property. Even if it was a service dog, which it wasn't, under the law a business can force it to leave due to behavior issues.


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## dgalati (Aug 13, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> Most of the service animal cheaters I see are the younger generation with their emotional support pomeranians.


I see alot of our older generation doing it also. So glad airlines decided to clamp down on the abuse!


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## dgalati (Aug 13, 2021)

55plus said:


> Emotional Support Animals and Comfort Animals are not considered Service Animals and are not protected under ADA. The airlines are finally cracking down on the abuse. Wyndham Ocean Walk did when one jumped my dog. I have a service dog due to military injuries. On many occasions and places fake service dogs would bark, growl and at times lunge at mine. In an elevator at Ocean Walk some fat slob and his fake service dog got on the elevator and it jumped my dog. Long story short, Wyndham management forced that dog off the property. Even if it was a service dog, which it wasn't, under the law a business can force it to leave due to behavior issues.


When I was at Wyndham Midtown 45 a few weeks ago I was surprised how many dogs seen in the building. There was one on our 31st floor when the owners left for dinner one night it howled up a storm. I didn't mind but I am sure others on the floor found it offensive!


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## troy12n (Aug 13, 2021)

dgalati said:


> I see alot of our older generation doing it also. So glad airlines decided to clamp down on the abuse!



I was in a grocery store today and an older lady, i'm guessing 60's or 70's had a large black purse like pouch with a HUGE sticker which said "registered service animal"... inside the little pouch was a chihuahua... a damn chihuahua!

She was petting it the whole time, it was barking, in the middle of the grocery store. Service Animal my a$$


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## happyhopian (Aug 14, 2021)

ROFR is very smart - honestly too smart for Wyndham so I'm surprised they have adopted. A couple of observations.

1. They are adding inventory as in properties but they cannot add inventory as in points to sell to others when those acquisitions also have owners coming in.
2. They live in a fixed system as in when they produce a property they have x points to sell. That never changes. 
3. To get more points they either have to build a new property to recycle points.
4. The is where ovations was so great in that some people would just give them back and they get to recycle inventory at no cost.
5. What hasn't been factored though is the resale value. With resale points at near zero people who want to TRY it out can purchase for $4/1000 instead of $150/1000. Think about that and I know many people who have started this way because that is virtually no risk.
6. When the price of resale goes up, it makes the higher price of developer sales more amenable especially when they throw in financing, temp vip and other perks which have little cost.
7. When they sell developer they make money. They make no money off resale - there for increasing resale value is a HUGE for them if they want to claw back inventory points to sell again and keep the value prop higher for those looking to invest AND close the gap between resale and developer.
8. Disney and other have done a GREAT job at managing resale values and it has done very very well for them in keeping their pricing and demand moving up.
LAST POINT - take everything I said and then add in the extra-holidays side of the business. They RENT these points out at full retail value on inventory they can always get first draw on (which I and many others disagree with but it is true). I think their greatest value going forward is acquiring the points to use for EH rentals where they are making huge bang and as they put more and more rental owners out of business through VIP changes THIS will have much more value.

Buying back resale, establishing a floor and recycling inventory is very smart for them. I am just surprised to see them making smart decisions like this where as most of their decisions in the past have been on greed or spite against people getting more benefit than they should.


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## OutSkiing (Aug 14, 2021)

Jimag said:


> In fact, I was told Margaritaville contracts have become "unavailable" not "scarce."  By instinct, I avoid absolutes and in this case it made my question unclear.  Margaritaville resale contacts have been offered on occasion.  I bought one a few years ago.  I was told I won't be able to buy another on resale because Wyndham is exercising ROFR on Margaritaville resales.  Have you seen a Margaritaville contract recently?


We bought a small Margaritaville contract (126k) off eBay in January this year and it went through just fine.


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## Mongoose (Aug 15, 2021)

troy12n said:


> There will be plenty of others out there. CWA points are dime a dozen on the resale market
> 
> 
> 
> Leave negative feedback and complain to ebay...


Probably way to late to leave feedback.  There is a limited window.  I'm also on the hunt for a 189K-210K Wyndham.  With all the take back in megarenter accounts I would think ROFR would be rare.


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## randyz (Aug 17, 2021)

happyhopian said:


> LAST POINT - take everything I said and then add in the extra-holidays side of the business. They RENT these points out at full retail value on inventory they can always get first draw on (which I and many others disagree with but it is true). I think their greatest value going forward is acquiring the points to use for EH rentals where they are making huge bang and as they put more and more rental owners out of business through VIP changes THIS will have much more value.
> 
> Buying back resale, establishing a floor and recycling inventory is very smart for them. I am just surprised to see them making smart decisions like this where as most of their decisions in the past have been on greed or spite against people getting more benefit than they should.



To your point about EH. I have forgotten at what point they can move points to EH, but I presume they cannot grab prime inventory at 10 months like the megarenters.


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## paxsarah (Aug 17, 2021)

randyz said:


> To your point about EH. I have forgotten at what point they can move points to EH, but I presume they cannot grab prime inventory at 10 months like the megarenters.


The way I read it, for points Wyndham owns it can book reservations with those points like any owner. They can't just take inventory they don't own until 60 days out (and even then they have to compensate for it), and can only take the last 10% inside 30 days.



pacodemountainside said:


> 11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use.


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## HitchHiker71 (Aug 17, 2021)

randyz said:


> To your point about EH. I have forgotten at what point they can move points to EH, but I presume they cannot grab prime inventory at 10 months like the megarenters.



Neither Wyndham nor any owner can move points to EH. EH only accepts existing reservations for rentals. For points that Wyndham owns, they can book reservations using their points and then submit those existing reservations to EH for rentals. Just want to ensure that anyone who might read this understands that EH has never rented points for anyone - they rent existing reservations. 


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## VacayKat (Aug 19, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Neither Wyndham nor any owner can move points to EH. EH only accepts existing reservations for rentals. For points that Wyndham owns, they can book reservations using their points and then submit those existing reservations to EH for rentals. Just want to ensure that anyone who might read this understands that EH has never rented points for anyone - they rent existing reservations.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They will use your points to book vacations for you - but they get your verbal ok to do it. And the process and paperwork os essentially the same as if you had booked the reservation yourself. Sort of like when you make reservations with CS for yourself.


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