# Some of the new points values don't make sense. What were they thinking?



## skimble (Nov 25, 2010)

There are some Points values that make me   
I'm seeing a 3 bedroom coastal CA resort worth 33 points for prime summer-July (standard resort with an ocean view 150 yards from the water.) 
And a I've seen a tiny studio unit at another standard coastal CA resort valued at 48 points (no view whatsoever, about 300 yards from the water.)
I'm sure I'm not the only one seeing these.  What are some major point discrepancies you've noticed in the system?


(THIS IS NOT A TOPIC THAT SHOULD NOT BE ROLLED INTO THE TWO EXISTING FORUMS.  IT'S TIME FOR TUGGERS TO DISCUSS THE DETAILS OF THIS NEW SYSTEM, TOPIC BY TOPIC.)


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## AFARR (Nov 25, 2010)

*Interesting points...*

Covered a bit before in the other threads.....

However, I wonder now if because people are seeing the values...and able to complain, if they will be changed over time.     Carolinian makes good points about the OBX (I generally agree with him (her?), because it's the only place I'm familiar with...) with the preference being OBBC I (Silver Crown, on the beach), OBBC II (Gold Crown..1/2 on the beach, 1/2 not), BIS Duck (runs from the sound side to the beach with dedicated beach access, and sound or beach views for a lot of the units)...should get more credits/points...however, BIS Kitty Hawk (still in developer sales) seems to have more points....(I haven't tried looking at the credit system yet)...

AFARR


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## Carolinian (Nov 25, 2010)

AFARR said:


> Covered a bit before in the other threads.....
> 
> However, I wonder now if because people are seeing the values...and able to complain, if they will be changed over time.     Carolinian makes good points about the OBX (I generally agree with him (her?), because it's the only place I'm familiar with...) with the preference being OBBC I (Silver Crown, on the beach), OBBC II (Gold Crown..1/2 on the beach, 1/2 not), BIS Duck (runs from the sound side to the beach with dedicated beach access, and sound or beach views for a lot of the units)...should get more credits/points...however, BIS Kitty Hawk (still in developer sales) seems to have more points....(I haven't tried looking at the credit system yet)...
> 
> AFARR



Yeah, they have put their thumb on the scales in Points Lite, too, for BIS-Kitty Hawk.  On the local timeshare rental market, people often price BIS-Kitty Hawk $100 per week under the oceanfront resorts, but it still only rents if all of the oceanfront resorts have already been rented.  Seascape, also off the beach, but a little closer, also usually rents before BIS-Kitty Hawk.

But if you want to see real nutjob numbers in Points Lite, look at Allen House, Chateau de Maulmont, Stouts Hill, or Residence le Castel (Monaco).

I also look at some east coast resorts that are much harder to find than OBX, like Isle of Palms Beach Club, oceanfront on the outskirts of Charleston, SC, or Tybrisa, on Tybee Island on the outskirts of Savannah, Georgia, and their point totals are less than the OBX.  While OBX is a great place and with a very high summer demand, it makes no sense that those places require less points.  Charleston has always been one of the most high demand / low supply places on the east coast.  I own on the OBX and not in those other places, but I recognize the pecking order of supply and demand.


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## Carolinian (Nov 25, 2010)

On another thread, someone reported a 3BR summer Myrtle Beach week at a resort on the other side of highway 17, a loooonnnngggg way from the beach was given 60 points lite.  Were talking ''drive to the beach'' as opposed to 300 Yards or 150 yards.




skimble said:


> There are some Points values that make me
> I'm seeing a 3 bedroom coastal CA resort worth 33 points for prime summer-July (standard resort with an ocean view 150 yards from the water.)
> And a I've seen a tiny studio unit at another standard coastal CA resort valued at 48 points (no view whatsoever, about 300 yards from the water.)
> I'm sure I'm not the only one seeing these.  What are some major point discrepancies you've noticed in the system?
> ...


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## PeelBoy (Nov 25, 2010)

Carolinian said:


> On another thread, someone reported a 3BR summer Myrtle Beach week at a resort on the other side of highway 17, a loooonnnngggg way from the beach was given 60 points lite.  Were talking ''drive to the beach'' as opposed to 300 Yards or 150 yards.




I own at both OBX and Myrtle Beach.  OBX is a short walk to the beach and yes Myrtle Beach is a short drive to the beach.  My two bedroom July week if spilt and then combined will give me 60 points.

Is it fair?  In my humble opinion yes because I have never seen any two bedroom at Myrtle Beach in July but every now and then I see an OBX July week.  Geographically, Myrtle Beach is more accessible and has a bigger catchment area of population but OBX is isolated and remote at a corner.  Myrtle Beach has more resorts but OBX has to compete with Virginia Beach.  

Personally, I like OBX more than Myrtle Beach but some may choose to go to a more convenient location.  I think more people demand Myrtle Beach than OBX.  Now RCI has become more transparent, so over time, members will realize OBX is cheaper pointwise.  There will be a shift in demand, so as redistribution of timeshare points.


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## Conan (Nov 25, 2010)

I don't know why they're undervaluing the 33 point week you describe.  Generally I'm noticing high point values for a place twhere the time slot and the location are right, and the place itself is pretty crummy.

I'm familiar with Cape Cod.  There are early-August studio and 1-BR  units, no better than motel rooms, that are listed at top point values.  RCI has the data, so they must know the demand is there even when the quality isn't.


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## AFARR (Nov 25, 2010)

PeelBoy said:


> I own at both OBX and Myrtle Beach.  OBX is a short walk to the beach and yes Myrtle Beach is a short drive to the beach.  My two bedroom July week if spilt and then combined will give me 60 points.
> 
> Is it fair?  In my humble opinion yes because I have never seen any two bedroom at Myrtle Beach in July but every now and then I see an OBX July week.  Geographically, Myrtle Beach is more accessible and has a bigger catchment area of population but OBX is isolated and remote at a corner.  Myrtle Beach has more resorts but OBX has to compete with Virginia Beach.
> 
> Personally, I like OBX more than Myrtle Beach but some may choose to go to a more convenient location.  I think more people demand Myrtle Beach than OBX.  Now RCI has become more transparent, so over time, members will realize OBX is cheaper pointwise.  There will be a shift in demand, so as redistribution of timeshare points.



Peelboy,

I've been to VA Beach...didn't like it at all (too much, too close to the beach).   I would go to the OBX (once I learned about it...shame I didn't learn a few years earlier) when I lived in Richmond, VA.   I live in the Allentown, PA area....and the OBX is a VERY popular vacation destination (8 hrs away).   I would have said the OBX pulls from a bigger area...Richmond, Northern VA and DC area, Baltimore, and even up this way.      Myrtle is closer to Atlanta...but for them, they can hit many beaches within the 8 hour drive.    

Never been to Myrtle personally, but on the OBX, you'll see a huge amount of 'own to use' TS owners....even the week 39 on Duck (this year), it was almost completely full...I asked the office as I didn't see a huge number of cars in the parking lot....they had only a very few units reserved but un-used (possibly due to the poor weather all week).   The reason the lots weren't full is that the overall occupancy is lower on the shoulder red season...so a 2 Br. may only have a husband/wife....in the high red season, it will often have 4 or 6 people.   

AFARR


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## krj9999 (Nov 25, 2010)

There are 17 July 2011 Myrtle Beach 2BR units currently available for exchange.



PeelBoy said:


> Is it fair?  In my humble opinion yes because I have never seen any two bedroom at Myrtle Beach in July but every now and then I see an OBX July week.


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## tschwa2 (Nov 25, 2010)

All the current availability in the Myrtle Beach area for July is in Surfside Beach and a car,s ride away from the beach.  It will probably eventually get taken as an exchange because there is no other availability in the area and it may have extra weeks deposited because it does get decent TP despite the less than ideal location compared to other resorts in the area.  

Like other resorts and areas, one would think that without the internal trade ups from the off season owners and because of the high TP to trade in if availability at this and other resorts exceeds general demand that it will be adjusted down in the future.  If it gets enough exchange in without having to reduce the credits to trade in, it should stay high.


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## Carolinian (Nov 26, 2010)

My comparision of summer Myrtle Beach was not with the OBX, but with London.  London who don't see online any time of year, much less summer. So now we have a 2BR off the beach at Myrtle Beach that gets more points lite than London.  Ludicrous!  And the French Riviera is scarce even in winter, and never online in the summer, but Myrtle Beach way off the beach gets a lot more points lite.  Even in South Carolina, Charleston is MUCH harder to find than Myrtle Beach, but those way off the beach MB weeks trumps Charleston in Points Lite's corrupt numbers racket.

SHould summer OBX be in the same ball park as London on points lite numbers? No.  Should way off the beach Myrtle Beach be in the same ballpark as London? No.  The big problem here is that RCI has seriously shortchanged the UK and much of Europe.




PeelBoy said:


> I own at both OBX and Myrtle Beach.  OBX is a short walk to the beach and yes Myrtle Beach is a short drive to the beach.  My two bedroom July week if spilt and then combined will give me 60 points.
> 
> Is it fair?  In my humble opinion yes because I have never seen any two bedroom at Myrtle Beach in July but every now and then I see an OBX July week.  Geographically, Myrtle Beach is more accessible and has a bigger catchment area of population but OBX is isolated and remote at a corner.  Myrtle Beach has more resorts but OBX has to compete with Virginia Beach.
> 
> Personally, I like OBX more than Myrtle Beach but some may choose to go to a more convenient location.  I think more people demand Myrtle Beach than OBX.  Now RCI has become more transparent, so over time, members will realize OBX is cheaper pointwise.  There will be a shift in demand, so as redistribution of timeshare points.


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## Carolinian (Nov 26, 2010)

Conan said:


> I don't know why they're undervaluing the 33 point week you describe.  Generally I'm noticing high point values for a place twhere the time slot and the location are right, and the place itself is pretty crummy.
> 
> I'm familiar with Cape Cod.  There are early-August studio and 1-BR  units, no better than motel rooms, that are listed at top point values.  RCI has the data, so they must know the demand is there even when the quality isn't.



RCI has the data, but for whatever reasons, it puts its thumb on the scales.  Sometimes this is to pander to deveopers.  Other times who knows.  London is my prime example.  In RCI's VIP program with special trades for developers, HOA board, and resort managers, London is the only area in the world they do not allow these special deal trades because the demand is so high and the supply so low.  Yet the highest 3BR at Allen House is 57 points lite.  If any resort should have 60 it is Allen House.  But RCI has clearly thrown supply and demand out the window generally with the UK and much of Europe.  Comparing Europe demand generally with US demand, until a few years ago, RCI used to give European members 2 for 1 credits if they would trade into the US rather than Europe.  And as someone who has watched European availibility online for years, it has decreased from when they stopped doing that.


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## PeelBoy (Nov 26, 2010)

Carolinian said:


> RCI has the data, but for whatever reasons, it puts its thumb on the scales.  Sometimes this is to pander to deveopers.  Other times who knows.  London is my prime example.  In RCI's VIP program with special trades for developers, HOA board, and resort managers, London is the only area in the world they do not allow these special deal trades because the demand is so high and the supply so low.  Yet the highest 3BR at Allen House is 57 points lite.  If any resort should have 60 it is Allen House.  But RCI has clearly thrown supply and demand out the window generally with the UK and much of Europe.  Comparing Europe demand generally with US demand, until a few years ago, RCI used to give European members 2 for 1 credits if they would trade into the US rather than Europe.  And as someone who has watched European availibility online for years, it has decreased from when they stopped doing that.




I am sorry I don't read everything you write because you write faster than I read.

I agree not every point program makes sense, or none of the point programs make sense.  I own 4 (RHC, Diamonds, II via Diamonds and now RCI) and I can easily dispute everyone of them that their point requirements do not match my comprehension of the real world.

RCI has become transparent; every member knows the price and the cost.  Consumers are smart.  With information they will make decision to meet their needs thus driving supply and demand and the price equilibrium.

I compare OBX and Myrtle Beach because I own at both.  I love OBX, which is less known to alot of people.  Over time, I believe OBX point requirement will go up and that of Myrtle Beach will go down.

That's the beauty of transparency.


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## JudyH (Nov 26, 2010)

I think the comparison between London and Myrtle Beach is better than  between OXB and either of the two above.  Believe it or not, many folks do not go to MB for the beach.  They go for eating, shopping, shows, golfing, fishing more often than the beach.  OXB has less to offer that way than MB, OXB is primarily beach and eating, with some fishing.  Summer, MB is less likely to get hurricanes than OXB.

London has the great variety to offer, but people would find it much less expensive to travel to MB than London.


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## skimble (Nov 26, 2010)

PeelBoy said:


> I am sorry I don't read everything you write because you write faster than I read.
> 
> I agree not every point program makes sense, or none of the point programs make sense.  I own 4 (RHC, Diamonds, II via Diamonds and now RCI) and I can easily dispute everyone of them that their point requirements do not match my comprehension of the real world.
> 
> ...


Yes, but smart consumers, knowing what they've been given, will not deposit.  So, in the example I gave above-- the 3 bd coastal CA resort (the Pacifica-- a phenomenal place) would not be offered enough credit to warrant a deposit.  RCI will never learn this because there's no demand.  It's a small resort with 8 units; RCI rarely gets deposits and probably never gets summer deposits.  With a value of 33, they will not likely GET a Pacifica summer deposit.  What is there to entice an owner there to deposit such weeks? 
With a value of 48 for a summer studio week, there will likely be a glut of weeks from this other resort.


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## Mel (Nov 26, 2010)

Carolinian said:


> RCI has the data, but for whatever reasons, it puts its thumb on the scales.  Sometimes this is to pander to deveopers.  Other times who knows.  London is my prime example.  In RCI's VIP program with special trades for developers, HOA board, and resort managers, London is the only area in the world they do not allow these special deal trades because the demand is so high and the supply so low.  Yet the highest 3BR at Allen House is 57 points lite.  If any resort should have 60 it is Allen House.  But RCI has clearly thrown supply and demand out the window generally with the UK and much of Europe.  Comparing Europe demand generally with US demand, until a few years ago, RCI used to give European members 2 for 1 credits if they would trade into the US rather than Europe.  And as someone who has watched European availibility online for years, it has decreased from when they stopped doing that.



If there are fewer European deposits, then there may also be fewer requests for European exchanges.  We don't see the underlying data, so we don't know exactly what the demand is.

The demand for London may in fact be high among a segment of the population, including those with VIP status.  That doesn't mean the demand is higher than for Myrtle Beach or any other places.



JudyH said:


> I think the comparison between London and Myrtle Beach is better than  between OXB and either of the two above.  Believe it or not, many folks do not go to MB for the beach.  They go for eating, shopping, shows, golfing, fishing more often than the beach.  OXB has less to offer that way than MB, OXB is primarily beach and eating, with some fishing.  Summer, MB is less likely to get hurricanes than OXB.
> 
> London has the great variety to offer, but people would find it much less expensive to travel to MB than London.


You've hit upon the key - what is the demand among RCI members - not among the general public, not amonth renters, not even among timeshare owners in general.  I suspect the very fact that there is little availability of timehsare units in London works against Allen House.  If I am setting up a trip to london, and know the change of getting a unit at Allen House are not that great, I'm not likely to wait around for that exchange, and will make other arrangements (exactly what I did 8 years ago for our last family trip to London - we stayed at a Marriott using points from their hotel system.  While we would have had more space in a timeshare, while in London being in a hotel wasn't that big of a deal.

Other factors come into play with some of the other resorts as well.  Beach-front rentals go for a premium, but do the majority of families using timeshares prefer to stay on the beach, or a block or so off the beach.  Remember that timeshares are marketed to a different segment of the population that rentals.  With small children, a family might prefer off-beach so the kids are not spending their entire time at the beach.  With older children, the kids themselves might prefer a pool rather than the beach (mine do), and with teens overall space and luzury might be more of a factor.  That's not to say the BIS Kitty Haw should necessarily be that much more "expensive" than the other resorts in the same area, but that the rental market is not the same as the exchange market, and demand within one might not track demand in the other.


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## Carolinian (Nov 26, 2010)

PeelBoy said:


> I am sorry I don't read everything you write because you write faster than I read.
> 
> I agree not every point program makes sense, or none of the point programs make sense.  I own 4 (RHC, Diamonds, II via Diamonds and now RCI) and I can easily dispute everyone of them that their point requirements do not match my comprehension of the real world.
> 
> ...



The problem is that it is only partial transparency until RCI reveals the formula for setting their numbers and the data behind it, as has they have already admitted that it is not the same formula for everyone, then I guess I understand why they resist that.  Why expose the fact that they are putting their thumb on the scales any more than they have to?  As to beauty, I suspect what some see in Points Lite is akin to an intoxicated single at a singles bar at closing time.  What looked beautiful then often looks quite a bit different the next morning when sobriety intrudes.

RCI is clearly not basing their numbers on supply and demand.  There are extraneous factors involved like insider deals with developers for artificial numbers, and of course the distortion created by their own rental operations. So real demand is not necessarily going to move their flawed numbers.

And the problems are not just between resort areas but within resort areas, like RCI overpointing BIS-Kitty Hawk, the lowest demand resort on the OBX, compared to the much higher demand beachfront resorts.

RCI's bizarre numbers for Points Lite reflect the same accounting principles as the major accounting scandal of its owner, Cendent / Wyndham, not long after its acquisition of RCI.  With that history of cooking the books, who can ever trust a set of numbers out of that swamp unless they reveal the full basis of them, which they are not.


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## Carolinian (Nov 26, 2010)

JudyH said:


> I think the comparison between London and Myrtle Beach is better than  between OXB and either of the two above.  Believe it or not, many folks do not go to MB for the beach.  They go for eating, shopping, shows, golfing, fishing more often than the beach.  OXB has less to offer that way than MB, OXB is primarily beach and eating, with some fishing.  Summer, MB is less likely to get hurricanes than OXB.
> 
> London has the great variety to offer, but people would find it much less expensive to travel to MB than London.



As to travel, it depends on where the people are from.  London is cheaper for many RCI members than Myrtle Beach in terms of travel cost. Even for some in the US in the Northeast, the difference may not be that great, especially at certain times of the year.

The biggest thing you lose sight of, though, is the fact that London has very high demand coupled with very limited supply.  Remember, both factors apply. Myrtle Beach does have very high demand, but also has very high supply.  It is not overbuilt like Orlando yet, but its supply comes a lot closer to covering demand than London.

I guess the best test is to go online and see how much London availibility you see and then compare it to how much Myrtle Beach inventory you see.

Many Tuggers go ga-ga over Manhattan Club, but Manhattan Club is a much easier trade than Allen House.  Royal Regency in Paris is also a much easier trade than Allen House.

I have eaten at many restaurants on the Grand Strand from Calabash to Murrells Inlet (north of MB to south of MB for those unfamiliar with the area), but none of them are as good as some of the OBX restaurants, so for eating there are good options both places, but my own choice for that would be the OBX.

As to fishing you have got it backwards.  The OBX has the best gulf stream and offshore fishing on the east coast, largely due to the fact that the Gulf Stream collides with the Labrador Current off of Cape Hatteras.  There are many fishermen who are own-to-use timeshare owners on the OBX in the Labor Day to Thanksgiving period for that very reason.  It surprised me how many of the fishermen in that period came from Florida as I assumed the fishing would be just as good at their front door, but I was told OBX fishing far exceeded anything in Florida.  Pier fishing and beach fishing is also popular.

As to golfing, you are correct that MB has more golf courses than the OBX, but HHI has both beat in that area.  Shopping and shows are just extras.  Anybody primarily travelling for those purposes would be more likely to head for somewhere like NYC.  Or London.

As to hurricanes, the OBX has only had one serious hurricane in the last 30 or so years.  Florida gets it much worse on that score, and I suspect there is little real difference between MB and the OBX.

One other comparision within SC is MB and Charleston.  Charleston has much higher demand for the limited supply and has a much stronger supply / demand curve than MB.  It offers a much wider array of things to do than MB. Yet the one resort that is oceanfront on the outskirts of Charleston, which has very low supply gets worse numbers than MB.  That is just ludicrous. There is only one resort that is oceanfront and right on Charleston's doorstep and it has less than 10 units.  Its numbers ought to clobber anything in MB, but under RCI's corrupt numbers racket, it lags behind MB.


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## Carolinian (Nov 26, 2010)

It always amazes me the gyrations you will go through to defend RCI.

As to supply and demand for any one location versus another, there is a real easy test.  Go online at RCI and see how much inventory you see for one versus how much you see for the other.  Maybe you would like to report back the total number you see for London and the total number you see for MB.  No?  I didn't think cold hard facts like that would appeal to you!

As to people preferring to be off the beach in a beach area as opposing to being on the beach, I had a real good belly laugh over that.  There have been several location vs. amenities threads on TUG and other t/s websites over the years, and invariably the location people handily exceed the amenities people.  Beach areas and the desirability of being on the beach has always been one of the key issues mentioned as to location being more important.  I guess next you will be telling us that when people go to NYC they really want to be in Newark instead of Manhattan.




Mel said:


> If there are fewer European deposits, then there may also be fewer requests for European exchanges.  We don't see the underlying data, so we don't know exactly what the demand is.
> 
> The demand for London may in fact be high among a segment of the population, including those with VIP status.  That doesn't mean the demand is higher than for Myrtle Beach or any other places.
> 
> ...


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## lolibeachgirl (Nov 26, 2010)

I am one of the people who bought a MB timeshare for the golf, not for the beach.  I don't own summer red because the weather in spring and fall is much more comfortable than summer ever would be for golfing .  I travelled there 5 of my first 7 years of ownership with my ex husband from east central PA.  Every year, we went to the beach only one time during the week, and golfed almost every day.  I am a beach lover, and although both Surfside and Myrtle Beach are fine beaches, this was not why we vacationed there.  We went there for golf first, with beaches, dining out, local history, and shows (one per trip only) being extra diversions.  We enjoyed Barefoot Landing for the Alligator Alley exhibit, and the Aquarium up the road was also fun.  We do not have kids, but on most trips took along family and friends who brought their kids.  Everyone we took has returned at least a second time with us.  Since we were not there during the summer, I can't comment on the waterparks or the amusement rides along the "boardwalk".  Also this is the only TS I've stayed at where we used the pool/hottub daily.

The bottom line on Myrtle Beach is not that it is a beach only destination, it has lots of all around interests for "kids" of all ages.  Don't forget the 2 Harley Davidson bike weeks in May and Sept.  that draw a whole other crowd.  All but one of my trips there were during fall bike week, and although I loved the energy they brought, I was thrilled to NOT be next to the hotels along the beach that were party destinations.  I own at Plantation Resort, and love the quiet, space and amenities at my resort more than having a smaller place with an ocean view among the throngs of people there.  I love a place with an ocean view from the balcony, but at some locations, it's not worth it.  

I have been to the OBX, but stayed in a hotel on the beach with an oceanview (before I owned a TS).  It was a beautiful place, and I would love to go back someday.  I was there for the beach, lighthouses, dining and local history.  The closest I was able to trade into after joining RCI was the Bougue Banks, and that was also beautiful and a relaxing trip.  The main draw was the beach, lighthouses and dining out.  I have friends who've gone to Myrtle Beach who would be bored in either place for a whole week  because the only other thing to do with their kids is mini golf, and a few golf courses.  

Myrtle Beach is just a little longer drive for us, but is worth a week's stay at a timeshare.  People like my friends who like to "do" on vacation instead of just relax, would be ready to leave OBX in about 4 days (although they would have enjoyed their time there for sure).

Just a couple observations of 2 places being compared from someone who wasn't looking at "beach only" when buying a timeshare....

As an aside, Myrtle Beach is not my destination of choice since my divorce because I don't golf as frequently as I used to.  I use my weeks with RCI to trade to Hawaii.  And when I am there, I avoid staying any place that resembles the throngs of people that stay in the Hilton Villages or Marriott complexes.  Just not my cup of tea to be in the crowds.  I prefer to stay in Princeville, and drive 5 minutes to fabulous beaches...so even in a beach destination, there are those of us who don't feel the need to stay "on" the beach.


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## Carolinian (Nov 26, 2010)

You are right on the money that it is spring and fall that are the golf weeks, rather than summer, but those are not the prime weeks with the higher points lite in MB.

I suspect that your friends who like to do things on their vacation would find a lot more to do in Charleston than in MB.   Yet Charleston is underpointed compared to MB.  I mentioned OBX mainly as a comparision to places like Charleston and London, not a comparision to MB.  Both MB and OBX would have a lesser supply / demand curve, even though both are themselves quite decent in summer, that is less than either Charleston / Isle of Palms or even more so, London any time of year.  And for either OBX or MB, the prime resorts are going to be the beachfront resorts, not those where you have to drive to the beach.


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## AFARR (Nov 26, 2010)

*Not a golfer myself....*

I was told that Sea Scape in Kitty Hawk gives owners 8 rounds worth of Greens Fees (not transferable) for their week....and has some very low MFs ($475, I think was the last I saw...which is probably what greens fees cost).

Not sure if other TSs include something like this...

AFARR


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## lolibeachgirl (Nov 26, 2010)

Hi, AFARR,
You are not that far away from me here in PA 

We used to have playing priveleges with Deer Track Courses, which my resort was built along, but both of the courses have been shut down for several years.  We now have golf cart fee only privileges with Indigo Creek that's within a couple miles of the resort.  But I miss watching people tee off the 18th and hit it right into the pond next to the balcony.  Amazingly, people who stay there and submit reviews mention how much they LOVE the wildlife and birds that now wander the overgrown fairways.

Carolinian,
I wasn't looking to get into a dispute on prime weeks and their old value vs current deposit trading value.  You said you had a belly laugh about amenity vs location on the beach.  I was giving you an opinion of someone outside of the "norm" that knows there are lots of people like me out there.  And I know my golf weeks are not prime weeks BUT I would imagine the spring and fall weeks should have more value than an all-beach location resort. 

My friends have never talked about visiting Charleston, I have never looked into going there either, although I may like to visit someday-the main draw would seem to be for the history (which is not the main or even secondary reasons for MB).  I know they plan to visit OBX this summer, and are already concerned about being bored for a whole week.  But they will rent a house with friends, they have only timeshared (in MB) with me.  And the one year they didn't want to take the kids out of school, the dad flew down for 3 days just to golf with my ex.  

And no, if I was visiting NYC, I would not want to stay in Newark (far much more time and trouble than a 5 minute drive)...actually every time I've been there, it was a day trip and I went back home to sleep in my own bed, certainly not worth a week of timeshare from where I live.

I think where people want to go is so subjective.  I used to want to go to MB every year when I golfed.  Now I have no desire to go back, and want to go to Hawaii with all my exchanges.  So the great thing about timesharing is where I want to go can change, and where I CAN go can change along with me...


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## Carolinian (Nov 26, 2010)

Yes, peoples' travel habits do tend to be subjective.  I like historic buildings, and to me, a chance at a timeshare in a historic building like a castle or manor house has much more charm than any new building with any number of bells and whistles.  Others may prefer the new buildings.  There was an HOA president at one OBX resort in the past who owned one timeshare week, which was a January week, that he always used at the resort.  The guy was loaded and could have afforded any week, but he had his own reasons that he liked to go down in January. Personally, I much prefer the OBX in warm season. 

However, in looking at supply and demand, you have to look at trends; what most people want.  There it is very clear.  On the resale market an oceanfront unit has a higher price than a non-oceanfront unit.  Back when the developers were selling them, that was also true in the initial sale.  On the rental market, an oceanfront unit rents quicker and for more money.  RCI does not differentiate within a resort, so that part you cannot tell within a resort, but between resorts, I have often searched the OBX just to look at trends, and usually when there is little availible in warm season, what is there tends to be at the resorts off the beach, exactly like in the rental market.  So, for most people, being on the beach is going to trump being way off the beach.


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## miamidan (Nov 26, 2010)

i have not looked at obx in January but, would assume it to be 5-7 trading power do you think this is over rated or under rated?


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## lolibeachgirl (Nov 26, 2010)

so if we are to follow the logic that customer demands form the trends of timeshares that people want, then why don't the developers build (or buy and convert) more buildings at these locations that are supposedly undervalued in RCI's new deposit value system? If so many people out there want them, they could make so much money selling them.  Maybe because some locations don't have enough interest from the majority of the timesharing poplulation for a full week's stay....maybe some places are enjoyed more by several night's stay in a hotel or B&B.

I don't think I would spend a 10+ hour drive and a week's exchange just to visit Charleston.  For Savannah, it would most likely be a flight and the week's exchange, also not worth it for me.  For London, again the flight, but I would likely spend just a few days in London and move on to other countries from there.  Even for Hilton Head (which I had considered in the past when I golfed heavily with the ex) it was just a little too much farther than Myrtle Beach to consider seriously.

I don't believe that a place not "on sand" in a destination like Myrtle Beach that is just as well known for golf (and family entertainment) as the beach would be overvalued compared to other resort destinations that the main lure is the beach.  Now if you told me that an off the beach resort in Myrtle Beach has higher deposit value for the same week, same size unit, than on "on sand" resort in Myrtle Beach....then that's another story.


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## bnoble (Nov 26, 2010)

> so if we are to follow the logic that customer demands form the trends of timeshares that people want, then why don't the developers build (or buy and convert) more buildings at these locations that are supposedly undervalued in RCI's new deposit value system?


Often because the land values (or building restrictions) in such areas are stacked against the typical timeshare's value proposition.  If you have to pay too much for the land, or you can't build very densely, you are likely to earn less on your capital invested than you would in other, more favorable locations.

The developers do not care about exchange values.  The only thing they care about is getting the best possible return on their invested capital.


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## AFARR (Nov 26, 2010)

*I looked at 2 weeks I own:*



miamidan said:


> i have not looked at obx in January but, would assume it to be 5-7 trading power do you think this is over rated or under rated?



Looked at 2 weeks I own...all done as 2012 deposits on the calculator to ensure maximum value.   

BIS Duck....Unrated resort, sound to ocean, gated community.
Unit 818...closest building to the beach, we have a "beach" view...the building partially blocks the view, but you can see the dune and the ocean...third floor (one bedroom is on the 4th floor).   To get access to the beach, you walk downstairs, go out around the parking lot or around the pool, then cross the elevated crosswalk, past the snack shop (beer's not too expensive there, and the food isn't terrible either!), then down the steps to the beach (crossing over the protective dunes)...so short walk to beach, with good location.   

This is a 3 Br.   Lock Off.
Wk 3:  10 credits for whole deposit or 9 + 8 (to deposit the 2 br. + 1 Br).
Wk 27 (July 4th week): 47 or 38 + 31.
Wk 37 (Shoulder red season...the week after Labor day week)..22 or 18 + 15.



The other resort is Gold Crown...OBBC II.
2 Br.  Non Lock Off.  The unit is on the other side of the beach road from the ocean...you go out through the OBBC II buildings that are oceanside.   This is a 2nd floor unit, no view.   We did tour the unit, but have not used it, it is a bit better decorated than the BIS Duck, but a very comparable size to the 2 Br part of the L/O.   

It gets:
Wk 3  12 Credits
Wk 27 55 Credits
Wk 37 24 credits.


So, the Gold Crown rating gives an increase of 33% (more or less) over the unrated resort....pretty consistent throughout the season.   The location on the BIS Duck unit is probably better for beach access, the OBBC unit is closer to most of the commercial stuff (more restaurants, etc)...I personally like the Duck area, but that's a personal preference only.

Even in the winter months the OBX resorts aren't empty....about 80% full per the office at BIS Duck, so they probably aren't over- or under-valued at all ...people are not be as apt to trade into it, but it does have limited availability due to mostly 'own to use' owners.     So, from my limited knowledge...it's probably not too far from what you'd expect for points given the usage and availability.    

AFARR


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## lolibeachgirl (Nov 26, 2010)

hi bnoble,
I know the developers' main concern is to make money, not make exchangers or owners happy.  But if some of these areas are so valuable to the timesharing crowd as a whole, then wouldn't the developers be able to charge very high for units there because there is sooo much demand?  Even if it costs a lot for the land, they could still make money if all that demand is out there.  Maybe some places are more valuable to those that own then for most people who exchange.   

We all would have like to have more deposit value for our places, but it is what it is (or will be  as supply and demand change, etc).  At least now we can see what we need to do to get the exchange we want-to me that's a step in the right direction at least.


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## bnoble (Nov 26, 2010)

Perhaps.  But, if you are moving up the price ladder, you are cutting off the market.  I'd also argue that the higher up the price ladder you are moving, the more likely it is that your prospects will see through the shenanigans that typically go on during a timeshare sales call.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that "exchange value" must necessarily track other values.  But, I don't think you can use the absence of developer activity to indicate poor exchange value, either.


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## AFARR (Nov 26, 2010)

lolibeachgirl said:


> hi bnoble,
> Snip.....  But if some of these areas are so valuable to the timesharing crowd as a whole, then wouldn't the developers be able to charge very high for units there because there is sooo much demand?  Even if it costs a lot for the land, they could still make money if all that demand is out there.  Snip......



Then you wind up with places like Orlando, Branson, Williamsburg, etc. with overbuilt developments and dropping demand (and oversupply).    I looked at some Williamsburg TSs when I was starting to look for a second week....and at Powhatan Plantation with $1200 MFs **!.    Building TOO ritzy a place to get purchasers then leads to overpriced TSs and then to wayyyyy to high MFs (in comparison to the rest of the area or even other areas).   

***I believe the MFs included a high Special Assessment, but even so, I thought the $800+ base MF was high, and I didn't see mention of any reduction in the SA in the near future...

AFARR


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## Carolinian (Nov 27, 2010)

bnoble said:


> Often because the land values (or building restrictions) in such areas are stacked against the typical timeshare's value proposition.  If you have to pay too much for the land, or you can't build very densely, you are likely to earn less on your capital invested than you would in other, more favorable locations.
> 
> The developers do not care about exchange values.  The only thing they care about is getting the best possible return on their invested capital.



Land values are why there will never be another oceanfront timeshare resort built on the Outer Banks.  The last resort built was way off the beach and the two developers that were scouting locations since were looking only way off the beach.  One actually bought a site but then the company, Peppertree/Equivest got into financial trouble and their site was sold at the courthouse door in Manteo.

Timeshare developers are looking at the bottom line in terms of costs and returns and also want an area where they can generate a tour flow.


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## skimble (Nov 29, 2010)

lolibeachgirl said:


> hi bnoble,
> I know the developers' main concern is to make money, not make exchangers or owners happy.  But if some of these areas are so valuable to the timesharing crowd as a whole, then wouldn't the developers be able to charge very high for units there because there is sooo much demand?  Even if it costs a lot for the land, they could still make money if all that demand is out there.  Maybe some places are more valuable to those that own then for most people who exchange.
> 
> We all would have like to have more deposit value for our places, but it is what it is (or will be  as supply and demand change, etc).  At least now we can see what we need to do to get the exchange we want-to me that's a step in the right direction at least.



You seem to have more faith in RCI's valuation than they deserve.  
I own week 25 at the Carlsbad Inn.  It's actually the first week of summer, but the first day of summer falls midweek, so it's falls short of being considered a prime week in the system.  Ask knowledgeable TUGGERs, and they'll tell you, this is probably the highest demand coastal CA resort.  I own prime coastal resorts in 5 different locations.  The hotest demand is my week 25 at the Carlsbad Inn.  I regularly get over $1300 for my 1 bedroom unit in rent.  
RCI values this week at 38.  Yet, if I owned week 26, it would enhance the trade value by 14 points.  This makes no sense, and it shows no thought.  If RCI's computer system is so sophisticated at measuring demand, why is CBI week 25 valued 33% less than week 26?
If they had a week 25 available at CBI for 38 pts, it would be gone within a day.  Look at RCI rentals, and you'll see... the value of week 25 does no depreciate 33% compared to week 26 at CBI.


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## Liz Wolf-Spada (Nov 29, 2010)

Possibly RCI has not kept up with the many changes in school calendars. I know my district (which I retired from) now starts by August 15 and end by June 3.
Liz


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## stugy (Nov 29, 2010)

*RCI trade values  I don't get it*

This has probably been discussed already and maybe it took a while for "things to sink in" with me, but I really don't get it.  
We own Barrier Island Station, Duck N.C. high red week  42 trade value
We own Allen House Club, London, high red week       42 trade value
Our BIS is a 2 bedroom for 8 (not a lock_out)  so we cannot spit up for "more value.
To trade 
Can't get Manhatten Club though there is lots of availability  (need 60 trade value)  Oh I can combine Allen House and Barrier Island to get a 1 bedroom. 
Myrtle Beach resorts 3 miles from the beach have higher trade value than London???????/   WHAT??   I see no Allen House Club available and tons of Myrtle Beach at that resort within driving distance of the beach.
We own a high red float at Suites at Hershey.  No availability ever!!!   It looks like is has a trade value of 21.  
Who figured out this system?  How long will it take RCI to figure out that this system is not equitable.  Am I depositing my Allen House.......NOT
I know there are some happy people out there.  I'm not one of them.  Is this new system another good reason to use other trade companies.  You bet.  Did the resorts "pay off" RCI.  
Okay, I'm ranting so I'll move on.  It's just not fair.
Pat


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## BevL (Nov 29, 2010)

_[Moved post to this thread - DeniseM Moderator]_

Here's a link to some discussion which actually includes these exact same resorts, Allen House and BIS Duck

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135233


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## HenryT (Nov 29, 2010)

Having just returned from Myrtle Beach I wanted to throw my 2 cents into this discussion.

First I wanted to say that debating which resort/region should have more points is similar to debating which resort/region is better in general. the answer to the latter question is there is no best. It depends on the person and what they like to do.

Also, just because a resort has less availability (in RCI) than another resort does not imply that it has higher demand or a lower supply vs demand ratio (the lower this ratio the higher the net demand for the resort/area). For example, if resort X has a supply of 100 and a demand of 110 then it's supply vs demand ratio is 100/110 = 0.91. Resort Y has a supply of 200 and a demand of 300 so it's supply vs demand ratio is 200/300 = 0.67. Thus, Resort Y has a lower supply vs demand ratio and should require more points for a given timeframe. I think that resort X would be the Outter Banks in the above example and Myrtle Beach would be resort Y.

There are a subset of people who would prefer the Outter Banks over Myrtle Beach and then there are those who would prefer Myrtle beach over the Outter Banks. I would contend though that the demand for Myrtle Beach far exceeds the demand for the Outter Banks even though the demand for the Outter Banks excceds the supply there. The reason for this is that Myrtle Beach is more diverse as far as things to do (just go to any travel guide and review the list of things to do in Myrtle Beach vs the Outter Banks.). You can also do a number of day trips from Myrtle Beach (Charleston, Hilton Head, etc.).

If you look at any indicator of demand for the two areas you will see that Myrtle Beach has much higher demand than the Outter Banks. This fact does not make Myrtle Beach better (some people hate Mrytle Beach because they think it is too commercialized or tacky.). I love it, but I also love Hilton Head and the Outter Banks for different reasons.

I guess I am saying that I think Myrtle Beach should have a higher point value than the Outter Banks.


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## Conan (Nov 29, 2010)

A bit of anecdotal evidence - - I deposited my summer near-Myrtle Beach property with RCI last week and got 51 TP for it.  It's a non-luxury property--it doesn't even have a pool, but it is 2-BR on the beach.

Anyway I saw my week listed on RCI at 46 points.  It's gone now, so somebody was satisfied to pay that price.


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## stugy (Nov 29, 2010)

Are you saying there is more to do At Myrtle Beach than in London??  Gee, I never knew that!!:rofl: 
Pat


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## janej (Nov 29, 2010)

Pat,

RCI has adjusted the value for most summer Hershey weeks after Nov 15.  I deposited a week 33 for 45 TP.  The max value is 47 TP.  They did not adjust week 26 for some reason.  It is the week that includes July 4th holiday.  But it is valued at 23 TP max while the week before is 30 TP and other summer weeks are 47 TP.

I deposited the Hershey week and got the deposit confirmation today.  I never seen it online.  I saw two off season weeks once and found them gone in a day.

Which week do you own at the Allen House?

Jane




stugy said:


> This has probably been discussed already and maybe it took a while for "things to sink in" with me, but I really don't get it.
> We own Barrier Island Station, Duck N.C. high red week  42 trade value
> We own Allen House Club, London, high red week       42 trade value
> Our BIS is a 2 bedroom for 8 (not a lock_out)  so we cannot spit up for "more value.
> ...


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## bnoble (Nov 29, 2010)

We can all speculate as to why it might not be getting the value you want for it, but the whys don't really matter.  If you are not getting good value for a deposit in RCI, *don't deposit it.*  If enough other owners do the same, then RCI will have to offer more credit in exchange to entice some of them back.  

I can tell you that if I owned a week at Allen House, the last thing I would do with it is deposit it to RCI, even if I could get 60 for it.  You are almost certainly much better off renting it out, and using the proceeds to secure the vacation lodging you desire elsewhere.

But, this valuation is not new with 11/15.  Allen House got dinged noticeably on 5/30/09, IIRC.


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## stugy (Nov 29, 2010)

Hi Jane
That is good news about Hershey.  21 points makes no sense.  But I wonder why week 26 would be worth less??
We own a week 39 at Allen House, a 1 bedroom.  It will be deposited elsewhere or rented for next year.  Still hard to believe that there is more to do and see in Myrtle Beach than London!! 
Wish it was in April.  I would love to go for the royal wedding.
Pat


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## Conan (Nov 29, 2010)

Personally I would take a week in London over a week in Myrtle Beach any time in the year, and a 1-BR unit would be fine with me.  But it may be there are more timesharing families looking for a summer 2-BR within range of the beach (even in proportion to the greater number of beach properties).

I looked up the TP points that RCI pays to get an Allen House 1-BR deposit for each week in 2011.  Weeks 19-36 get at least 45 points.  The shoulder weeks 9-18 and 37-43 get at least 40 points.  

I also looked at RCI availability.  Currently RCI offers availability at 2,481 resorts worldwide, of which 1,055 are in the US.  Of these, there are 13 resorts in the US that have weeks on offer at 40 points or more, and only 2 resorts in the US that have weeks on offer at more than 48 points.  In almost every case where 40 points or more are needed that's for the highest-demand week, and other weeks can be had at the same resort for less than 40 points.

So if you choose to deposit your Allen House week into RCI, you're in a position to book almost every week in RCI that's currently available.  If what you want isn't currently available, set your ongoing search early and you have sufficient points to reserve almost any resort that isn't Manhattan Club.


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## lolibeachgirl (Nov 30, 2010)

stugy,
HenryT said "more diverse", not more to see and do.  You have to realize that a large number of timeshare owners are parents with children.  Although London is a wonderful place, full of history and culture, the chances of a family paying for airfare and staying in London for a week with a 2 and 4 year old, or 5 and 7 year old, or even a 9 and 11 year old is just not that realistic.  These types of families want to get to their destinantion by filling up the car with gas and letting their kids sleep for half the trip.  They save money by buying food cheap at home, bringing almost everything else, and planning to cook half the nights they are on vacation.  They want a place where there is lots to keep the kids entertained and happy.  They want to take their kids to the beach, do some putt-putt golf, take them to a show like Medieval Times or the Dixie Stampede, and spend some time in the pool.  Maybe dad will get in a couple rounds of golf and mom will get a break from cooking by going out to eat a couple times.  They most likely will not drag their small kids to museums, to Buckingham Palace, to churches with amazing architecture, etc.

*also, my resort is not 3 miles from "the beach", it is 3 miles from Myrtle Beach, but across the highway (and a shuttle ride in season) from Surfside beach, which some believe is a better beach than Myrtle (less crowded, better sand).


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## lolibeachgirl (Nov 30, 2010)

skimble,
Just because I choose to look at some changes positively, doesn't mean I'm happy with what RCI has assigned to the weeks at my resort.

I don't own summer red at Myrtle Beach, so I don't have any of those prime weeks numbers everyone is talking about.  The most I can get for my 2br is 21, unless I split my lockout (which I was lucky enough to get when I bought...and I paid dearly for it-developer purchase in 1999 before discovering TUG ), than I can get 33 (after paying $99 to combine).

I do own weeks that include Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, AND Harley Davidson Fall Bike week-NONE of which gets more than 19 points for 2br for 2012 (or tops of 30 when splitting and combining).

But I am still glad that I know what my weeks are worth, that I am now able to combine them, that I get change back if I trade down (which I have in the past...now I know it because of the values available to me to look up), and I know how long I can wait to deposit before my value will depreciate, and by how much.


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## StaceyJ (Dec 5, 2010)

*Best Value*

I wonder how long it will be before some TUGger builds a spreadsheet that shows best value...TP vs MF vs common Ebay purchase price.  Will TP value help sellers now get a higher price for their online TS sales?  Or, worse, will new TP values prevent sellers from even finding a buyer?


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## Jennie (Dec 6, 2010)

We own many timeshare weeks. Some are fixed deeded or floating weeks. Some  are at large upscale resorts and some are the basic "plain vanilla" type in smaller resorts.  We use many of them ourselves, year after year, including multiple back-to-back weeks January to March in Ft' Lauderdale, and 3 prime summer weeks at a Cape Cod Resort. (All are huge 2 bedroom units). 

The assigned TP values are decent but not high enough to entice us to deposit any of them. If we could not use one or more of them in a given year, we would be able to easily rent them through TUG, Redweek, or MyResortNetwork at 50 to 100% more than our maintenance fees. We could use the proceeds to rent exactly what we want direct from another timeshare owner.

I see this new RCI program as being a step in the right direction IF they don't slip too many of the deposited weeks out the back door to their rental arm (and that is a big IF !). Already I'm seeing far less availability in prime months. No matter how many TPs are available to me, unless I can see some good weeks available as exchanges, I will have no incentive to deposit and combine what I own. Other owners will undoubtedly come to the same conclusion. Therefore, I do not see this program getting enough quality weeks to exchange. 

A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. And RCI has too many weak links. Their website is constantly full of "bugs" and the team devising the TP values must be (well, you please fill in the blanks with the opposite of compliments). For example, a studio week we own at a standard resort in Hawaii is valued at 43 while a huge two bedroom lock-off in Ft. Lauderdale during President's week is worth 35. The maintenance fees on the studio are $400. while the m/f on the 2 bedroom lock-off is $875..The Hawaii week rents for around $600. to $700.. The lock-off goes for around $1500. Who came up with these TP figures? It makes no sense. 

One possible benefit of this program, despite the obvious flaws, is that it may enable people who own low quality or worthless weeks to combine a few of them and obtain one decent exchange. But many of the people who own such weeks may not be Internet savvy and/or may find the learning curve too steep to be able to figure it all out. Even if they do find a good week, when they add up the cost of the maintenance fees for the two (or more) weeks they own, plus the fee to combine the TPs, and the fee to do the actual exchange, they may wind up paying more than the price of just renting the week outright.


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## beejaybeeohio (Dec 6, 2010)

Jennie's post is very well stated.  The biggest revelation to me since 11/15 is the lack of availability of the resorts I'd like to exchange into. When using the RCI search all feature, the resorts I seek just aren't available. What's the point of having "points" when there's nothing personally worth purchasing in the RCI inventory? Unless this changes, I am very likely to rent out my FC week and will try to unload my SA Bushmen's Nek.


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## Eds (Dec 6, 2010)

StaceyJ said:


> I wonder how long it will be before some TUGger builds a spreadsheet that shows best value...TP vs MF vs common Ebay purchase price.  Will TP value help sellers now get a higher price for their online TS sales?  Or, worse, will new TP values prevent sellers from even finding a buyer?



I use my weeks only for trading and this will be a subject of great interest. High TP, low MF will be able to ask for higher purchas prices. Surprised this is not yet a thread in TUG about this issue.


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## sfwilshire (Dec 6, 2010)

beejaybeeohio said:


> Jennie's post is very well stated.  The biggest revelation to me since 11/15 is the lack of availability of the resorts I'd like to exchange into. When using the RCI search all feature, the resorts I seek just aren't available. What's the point of having "points" when there's nothing personally worth purchasing in the RCI inventory? Unless this changes, I am very likely to rent out my FC week and will try to unload my SA Bushmen's Nek.



The unanswerable element to that is how many were grabbed by ongoing searches. You might find a good VC to tell you. One told me that a resort I desired had only two summer deposits the previous year, so that info must be available to them.

Sheila


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## BevL (Dec 6, 2010)

sfwilshire said:


> The unanswerable element to that is how many were grabbed by ongoing searches. You might find a good VC to tell you. One told me that a resort I desired had only two summer deposits the previous year, so that info must be available to them.
> 
> Sheila



Exactly my thought.  You can't really judge what's available by what's online - the good stuff is rarely going to make it through.


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