# Points, Does not work for lockoff owners!



## davemy (Jun 26, 2010)

I am so MAD about this new Option! I split my 2 units almost every year and get great trades thru interval. Always upgrades and during school breaks!I plan far ahead. Making 4 weeks of vacations! NOT ANYMORE IF I JOIN POINTS. Also I Bought direct from Marriott and i have never turned my weeks in for rewards points, With the deval in points that is a bad option. Resale owners are signing up because they think that its a GREAT thing, its NOT.


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## DanCali (Jun 26, 2010)

davemy said:


> I am so MAD about this new Option! I split my 2 units almost every year and get great trades thru interval. Always upgrades and during school breaks!I plan far ahead. Making 4 weeks of vacations! NOT ANYMORE IF I JOIN POINTS. Also I Bought direct from Marriott and i have never turned my weeks in for rewards points, With the deval in points that is a bad option. Resale owners are signing up because they think that its a GREAT thing, its NOT.



If you have multiple weeks you can still lock off. All it costs you is about $400. I call this "the hidden lockoff fee". Those who perpetuate the "$199 and done" line are seriously kidding themselves. It's time to put a stop to that...

Evey lockoff costs you 500 - 1000 points. Since MFs are $0.40 per point, I approximated the rental value of apoint to $0.50. That's $250 - $500 you lose for locking off. Makes the $75 oldlockoff fee look nice, doesn't it?

see this post for more detail:



DanCali said:


> Isn't the fact that a 1BR + studio points > 2BR points effectively a lockoff fee? Given the $400 for 800 points "consensus", multiply that by about $0.50 per point to find out what it amounts to.
> 
> Here are some examples, (based on points required to trade in):
> 
> ...


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## davemy (Jun 26, 2010)

I know i can still lock off under any system, but under Marriott points, you do not get enough points to get 3 or 4 vacations during school breaks. I have been to hilton head 5 times during easter and summer weeks, that will not happen anymore unless i want to stay at harbour point. Oh yes and buy more points! Min. purchase $9200.00 dollars!


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## vincenzi (Jun 26, 2010)

We bought resale at Grande Ocean in HH.  We plan to go there every year. It is the only resale that we own.  But, we own two weeks at Marriott Aruba Ocean Club.  Usually, we lock off one week with II and get two weeks at Grande Ocean which enables us to stay 3 weeks at Grande Ocean and one week at Aruba Ocean Club.  We are leaning towards not joining.  We have already spent a lot more money with the maintenance fees and assessments (for Aruba Ocean Club)that we had anticipated.   :annoyed:  Hopefully, this will still be possible for us .  What do you think???


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

DanCali said:


> If you have multiple weeks you can still lock off. All it costs you is about $400. I call this "the hidden lockoff fee". Those who perpetuate the "$199 and done" line are seriously kidding themselves. It's time to put a stop to that...





You're kidding right?

OK, so I don't join the new Destination Club (it's not just a points program if you really look at it). When I lock off my units, there's a $75 fee for each unit. That's $150 total for my two ownerships. Then I have to pay a $109 exchange fee on each unit. That's another $118 in fee's. On top of that, I pay I.I. a membership fee of $89/year (I think it's $89/year). Let's see, that's $150+$118+89=$357.

Or I could join Marriott's Destination Club and pay $199 and do the exact same thing. 

Now I'm not a math major but, $199 to accomplish the same goal seems to be a lot less then $357. You DON'T have to exchange points if you join the Destination Club. You can continue to exchange you lock-off portions in the weeks program. The difference is you have the Destination's Club's exchange manager obtaining the weeks for you from Interval.

Now let's think about this. Marriott's corporate exchange manager vs an individual owner in obtaining an exchange week. Not that I'm a conspircy theorist but, who do you think I'm assuming is going to win that battle?

There are reasons for owners like me who stay at their home resort using their master suite but exhange their lock-off weeks. The sticking point for me was maintaining access to complete my own exchanges using the studio lock-off from Ocean Pointe. deposit or request first won't help me as I'd be stuck searching for a studio unit. I want to be able to continue to search on my own online looking for that trade up into a 1 bedroom unit. If it gets to a point where I can no longer accomplish that goal, then we'll just start using the entire 3 bedroom unit at Ocean Pointe and cease exchanging the studio lock-out.


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## DanCali (Jun 26, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> You're kidding right?
> 
> OK, so I don't join the new Destination Club (it's not just a points program if you really look at it). When I lock off my units, there's a $75 fee for each unit. That's $150 total for my two ownerships. Then I have to pay a $109 exchange fee on each unit. That's another $118 in fee's. On top of that, I pay I.I. a membership fee of $89/year (I think it's $89/year). Let's see, that's $150+$118+89=$357.
> 
> ...



No, I am dead serious.

It's ok that you are not a math major, but I have some experience both with numbers as well as teaching, so let's do this slowly...

Aside from the $165 or $199 "one and done" cost, there are several major hidden costs in the Marriott system - locking off and skimming are the most tangible ones (I can't price loss of voting rights...).

Let's try to isolate these costs using simple fictitious resorts.

Assume there are 2 "like for like" resorts - call the Pacific and Atlantic. Both are 1-52 float, both are 2BR locksoffs.

The cost to trade into a any week at these resorts is as follows:

2BR: 5000 pts
1BR: 3500 pts
Studio: 2300 pts

Isolating the lockoff cost:

Let's assume that each week 2BR owner in the 1-52 gets 5000 points. This assumes no "skimming" because we assumed all weeks are 5000 points to trade into. We'll come back to this when we discuss skimming.

An owner from Pacific want to lock off and trade to Atlantic. In the old II system the cost was $89 membership fee + 218 for two exchange fees + 75 lockoff fee = $382. I'm assuming the studio traded for a studio and the 1BR for a 1BR, but in reality that owner may have done better. I'll settle for like for like. So far this is familiar, right.

With the new system, that owner wants to get the same studio and 1BR in Atlatic. But Marriott's allocation causes a point shortfall because he needs 3500+2300=5800 points and has only 5000. My argument is that this shortfall is the cost of locking off in the Marriott system.

To make that exchange the owner needs 800 points. Those points have a cost...

1) He can get them by using points from a second enrolled unit - that cost of that is $0.30-$0.40 per point (based on MF/point)

2) He can rent from an owner - my estimate was that will cost around $0.50 per point

3) He can rent from Marriott - maybe $0.75 per point?

Either way, it's a cost and not a small one. In this example it comes out to $400 if you assume $0.50. Add to that the annual fee of $165-$200 and you can see why I argues the costs are higher than in the current system.

*Now go back to my previous post (post #2) for "real-world" examples.*

We can do the same thing to isolate skimming.

Isolating the skimming cost:

The example above assumed each owner got the average points of their 1-52 float season - i.e., 5000 points. In reality we know they were likely to get around 4600 points. So there is a 400 point shortfall due to the skim factor. Owners need those points to get an equivalent like for like trade. Similar to above, the cost of that can range from $0.30 to $0.75 per point, depending on how they obtain the points. At $0.50 per point the cost if $200 each year. On top of the annual fee, of course...

Marriott did a great job hiding these costs. I imagine most owners will but into the "one fee and done" fallacy... but that's what it is - a fallacy.

I hope this clarifies what I meant?


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

You have to remember that this isn't just a points program. You can join the program and lock-off your weeks the old fashioned way, exchange them the old fashioned way and only pay $165 or $199 for ALL of your exchanges. Forget points. Just use the Destination Club to complete your weeks based exchange. 

I'm paying $357 for my exchanges without the Destination Club. I can do the same thing in the Destination Club for $199 WITHOUT using points. So yes, the Destination Club can work for owners who like to lock-off their units and exchange. Heck, if I locked off my units and made 4 exchanges rather than two, the cost for the Destination Club if $199 but, the cost for me if I don't join is $675.

What you seem to be hung up on is points. You DON'T have to use points. You can still exchange within the Destination Club using weeks and, you're still only charged the one time fee.


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## DanCali (Jun 26, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> You have to remember that this isn't just a points program. You can join the program and lock-off your weeks the old fashioned way, exchange them the old fashioned way and only pay $165 or $199 for ALL of your exchanges. Forget points. Just use the Destination Club to complete your weeks based exchange.
> 
> I'm paying $357 for my exchanges without the Destination Club. I can do the same thing in the Destination Club for $199 WITHOUT using points. So yes, the Destination Club can work for owners who like to lock-off their units and exchange. Heck, if I locked off my units and made 4 exchanges rather than two, the cost for the Destination Club if $199 but, the cost for me if I don't join is $675.
> 
> What you seem to be hung up on is points. You DON'T have to use points. You can still exchange within the Destination Club using weeks and, you're still only charged the one time fee.



I understand what you are saying... But you lose control of your II account and you are going to make those exchanges through Marriott in a manner they did not intend. 

You think the likelihood of getting those exchanges will be the same? Not trying to be the "old Perry" but if I were Marriott I'd let all your II club account deposits expire, so you use points next time around. But that's just me - I'm sure they are alot more ethical and they will let you trade up through a corporate II account rather than skim your points on trades and lockoffs....


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

This is the very reason we won't be enrolling in the Destinations program. Lock off in to other resorts are just too expensive in points. Sure you can save a couple hundred each year with the consolidated fee when using weeks. However, at $2K to enroll our two resale weeks, it would take 10 years or more to make back our investment. I could probably double that money if I just held on to it in that same period of time. I will take our chances with the current fee structure. If there were more certainty around how the II account would work for enrollees, then I may reconsider.


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## Y-ASK (Jun 26, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I understand what you are saying... But you lose control of your II account and you are going to make those exchanges through Marriott in a manner they did not intend.


I think you are going to lose control any way when Marriott starts to fill all of the points/weeks request within the points system first (which includes weeks that have been deposited by non-enrollees) and owners who did not sign up get what's left over...

I'm not saying that what Marriott is doing is right or wrong but it looks like this might just be the future.  So do you really want to be on the outside looking in when it comes to trades through II?

Y-ASK


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## wuv pooh (Jun 26, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by DanCali
> Isn't the fact that a 1BR + studio points > 2BR points effectively a lockoff fee? Given the $400 for 800 points "consensus", multiply that by about $0.50 per point to find out what it amounts to.
> 
> ...




Not really.  This is really the cost of the option to cancel one part of your reservation for 10 months.

Basic financial engineering theory posits that if you can synthetically create the same thing by a two means then they are equivalent.  Under a points system it would not be smart or fair to the other owners to allow a 2bd to be equal to a 1 bd + studio.

If this was true, or worse less points, then I would never  book a 2 bd.  I would always book a 1 bd + studio.  I have until 60 days before my check in to cancel and get my points back.  This is a long time and my needs might change.  My daughter might have to cancel or my dad can't come, etc.  Then I would have a free put option to cancel and get a good chunk of my points back.  This is a disincentive to reserve a 2bd and not really fair to the other owners for me to get this value with no cost.  There is also a lot more breakage with studios, so this represents the actual cost of allowing people to option to lock off.  Most of the dead weeks in the current system are studios from what I see in II.  You have replaced an old cost of $75 with lots of expired lockoffs with something more closely approximating the true cost of exercising the lockoff.

You may disagree with the cost, or think that it is too high, but it is not unreasonable or a skim, but a requirment of a fair system.  When we see the actual demand generated by the system then Marriott will reset the relative values and we will get closer to the true cost with each iteration.


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## Big Matt (Jun 26, 2010)

Each side of this argument falls apart depending on whether everyone joins the new points program or not.

If lots of owners join then it will be very difficult to stay on the side and trade through interval as before without paying to join.  In other words, the supply in II will be low and if you don't join points, you won't trade much through II.

If few people join the program the reverse will be true.  More owners deposit in II and there will be more available.  Granted, Marriott will grab the "good" deposits for the points owners, but if you are going after trades that are easy to get now, you should be no worse off.

On the balance, regardless of whether it is a huge success of not, Marriott will grab the best deposits from II for their points owners.  The non-points owners will get the scraps in II.


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## TRAVELING FOOL (Jun 26, 2010)

*Lock-offs*

I have been reading all the pros and cons regarding the new point system. Thus far, I have found more cons. I too am skeptical that if I don't join, there won't be enough inventory of Marriotts to trade into. $595 is alot of money besides my MF to join into a system I thought I already belonged to. The points assigned to my MGC is far short of what it costs for me to trade into my own home unit. I usually separate our 2 BR into 2 vacations, which has brought us some very nice exchanges. There is no way we will have enough points to do this in the new system. We also trade in for 110,000 MP every other year. This has given us some very nice European vacations we would never have afforded.While doing so, we've gotten some very nice getaways. In the new system, if I understand right, if I don't trade for a year, the assigned points on my timeshare would be banked or I could convert it into MRPs? Those points are no where near 110,000 pts! I was once a proud Marriott owner, but now feel completely let down.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I understand what you are saying... But you lose control of your II account and you are going to make those exchanges through Marriott in a manner they did not intend.
> 
> You think the likelihood of getting those exchanges will be the same? Not trying to be the "old Perry" but if I were Marriott I'd let all your II club account deposits expire, so you use points next time around. But that's just me - I'm sure they are alot more ethical and they will let you trade up through a corporate II account rather than skim your points on trades and lockoffs....



Whatever you say boss. But Marriott is telling owners they get to keep control. It's just a corporate account, much like many other internal exchange systems operated under, rather than a personal account. 

Call the Marriott desk at Interval or call the Exchange manager with Marriott. I'm not seeing a real difference with weeks based exchanges here other than symantics.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

Big Matt said:


> Each side of this argument falls apart depending on whether everyone joins the new points program or not.
> 
> If lots of owners join then it will be very difficult to stay on the side and trade through interval as before without paying to join.  In other words, the supply in II will be low and if you don't join points, you won't trade much through II.
> 
> ...



I don't think so and for one big reason. The exchange manager has the power to make exchanges with Interval on behalf of members in the Destination Club to obtain requested weeks. IOW, if a weeks member deposits their week for exchange and a Destination Club member has requested that particular week, the exchange manager will have an ongoing request for that week and, when it becomes available it will be fulfilled through the Destination Clubs exchange power and agreement with Interval. So no weeks owner has to join for weeks to be available to Destination Club members.

On the other hand, is the Marriott exchange manger going to have more power to make exchanges than individual owners? It's hard to say for certain but, if I were a betting man I'd say there's a good chance that may be the case. 

So, outside looking in hoping to get the exchange or, inside with the exchange manger working for you. That seems to be the choice.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I don't think so and for one big reason. The exchange manager has the power to make exchanges with Interval on behalf of members in the Destination Club to obtain requested weeks. IOW, if a weeks member deposits their week for exchange and a Destination Club member has requested that particular week, the exchange manager will have an ongoing request for that week and, when it becomes available it will be fulfilled through the Destination Clubs exchange power and agreement with Interval. So no weeks owner has to join for weeks to be available to Destination Club members.
> 
> On the other hand, is the Marriott exchange manger going to have more power to make exchanges than individual owners? It's hard to say for certain but, if I were a betting man I'd say there's a good chance that may be the case.
> 
> So, outside looking in hoping to get the exchange or, inside with the exchange manger working for you. That seems to be the choice.



But I don't think the exchange manager is going to be working a lot to help on week for week exchanges. They will work to get a points exchange for you and get the week needed from II. However if you deposit a week in II for straight up week for week, the exchange manager won't be helping you, it is between you and II at that point.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

TRAVELING FOOL said:


> I have been reading all the pros and cons regarding the new point system. Thus far, I have found more cons. I too am skeptical that if I don't join, there won't be enough inventory of Marriotts to trade into. $595 is alot of money besides my MF to join into a system I thought I already belonged to. The points assigned to my MGC is far short of what it costs for me to trade into my own home unit. I usually separate our 2 BR into 2 vacations, which has brought us some very nice exchanges. There is no way we will have enough points to do this in the new system. We also trade in for 110,000 MP every other year. This has given us some very nice European vacations we would never have afforded.While doing so, we've gotten some very nice getaways. In the new system, if I understand right, if I don't trade for a year, the assigned points on my timeshare would be banked or I could convert it into MRPs? Those points are no where near 110,000 pts! I was once a proud Marriott owner, but now feel completely let down.



And you can do the same thing with the Destination Club. Just don't exchange your unit for points. Instead, lock-off your unit as you normally would and make your exchanges just as you have in the past.

The difference is you'll pay a joiner fee of $595 up front and, in your case, pay $165/year, which will cover your membership fee with Interval ($89) and your two exchange fee's ($218 for Marriott exchanges or up to $298 for external exchanges). 

You DON'T have to convert you week to points. That's up to you each year. You can still make weeks based exchanges using the Destination Club. The only thing you give up are all the extra fee's. One membership fee covers ALL your exchange and lock-off fee's. 

Honestly, I'm no longer seeing what the big deal is. If you don't want to use points, then don't use points. Marriott is not putting a gun to your head and telling you, if you join, you must use points to exchange. You can still belong to the Destination Club and make weeks based exchanges.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> But I don't think the exchange manager is going to be working a lot to help on week for week exchanges. They will work to get a points exchange for you and get the week needed from II. However if you deposit a week in II for straight up week for week, the exchange manager won't be helping you, it is between you and II at that point.



I think that's an assumption and I believe that it's wrong. All members of the Destination Club are members. It won't matter if it's points based or weeks based. All members pay the same fee's to the club manager. The exchange manager is responsible for all exchanges, both weeks and points.


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## JimIg23 (Jun 26, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I understand what you are saying... But you lose control of your II account and you are going to make those exchanges through Marriott in a manner they did not intend.
> 
> You think the likelihood of getting those exchanges will be the same? Not trying to be the "old Perry" but if I were Marriott I'd let all your II club account deposits expire, so you use points next time around. But that's just me - I'm sure they are alot more ethical and they will let you trade up through a corporate II account rather than skim your points on trades and lockoffs....



How do you know you lose control over your II account?  What proof do you have other than the posts in this forum?  

I have yet to make my decision on if I will join.  I am leaning towards it, but I am waiting for proof of what will happen with II access.  Regardless of what people say, A Marriott rep told me we will have direct access to II and do everything we can now, but it will not cost anything other than the Marriott fee unless you trade outside of Marriott.  Now, was the rep right?  I dont know, as much as I know if any of the posts here are right.  I am waiting for a Tugger to log on to II with their new Marriott number and tell us.  Until then, I dont see how there is any proof either way.  Too many people have too little information.  If you do have proof, please share it.  

Also, people seem to think that once you join the system, you HAVE to convert to points every year.  Based on what I have read and my conversations with Marriott, you can reserve, lock off, deposit in II or do whatever you want with you DEEDED weeks, EVEN when you join the system.  Now, will Marriott somehow play with the pool reservation timing so points owners have more access to "prime weeks" within a season?  No one knows yet.  Will the inventory in II for Marriott to Marriott trades dry up?  No one knows yet.  Anyone who says they know, doesnt.  I will bet many will join because of the consolidated fees and still use their deed and not convert to points until they see what the inventory looks like.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I think that's an assumption and I believe that it's wrong. All members of the Destination Club are members. It won't matter if it's points based or weeks based. All members pay the same fee's to the club manager. The exchange manager is responsible for all exchanges, both weeks and points.



I understand what you are saying, but there is still too much unknown surrounding the II account that is holding me back.

Will Marriott pick the week to deposit? They say nothing will change. Well in the current system they pick weeks for thousands of owners for deposit. They will still do that in the new system. But will they let you deposit the specific week you reserved? Why would they if they are just going to turn around and take it back. It makes no sense for Marriott to give owners the ability to reserve a week and then deposit in the new system.

I believe every new enrollee gets a new II account number. That should allow them to get on-line access with that account number. So there could be the ability to setup your own requests and confirm instant exchanges without the help of a VOA, but no one can get a consistent answer from Marriott.

Also when doing a week for week exchange I don't see how II trade power still won't be taken in to consideration. If I am offering up a May Orlando week and am wanting a Christmas HI, they won't confirm the exchange just because I am a member of the new club and have the exchange manager looking out for me.


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## JimIg23 (Jun 26, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I understand what you are saying, but there is still too much unknown surrounding the II account that is holding me back.
> 
> Will Marriott pick the week to deposit? They say nothing will change. Well in the current system they pick weeks for thousands of owners for deposit. They will still do that in the new system. But will they let you deposit the specific week you reserved? Why would they if they are just going to turn around and take it back. It makes no sense for Marriott to give owners the ability to reserve a week and then deposit in the new system.
> 
> ...



I am in the same boat.  I know several Tugger have joined and I think they will post what they see with their new II account numbers.  II is the main reason I am in a holding pattern for now. I was told by MArriott that our deeded weeks will have the same trading power as before.  I am waiting a few weeks for II reps to get a handle on the program then I will ask them also.


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## DanCali (Jun 26, 2010)

Y-ASK said:


> I think you are going to lose control any way when Marriott starts to fill all of the points/weeks request within the points system first (which includes weeks that have been deposited by non-enrollees) and owners who did not sign up get what's left over...
> 
> I'm not saying that what Marriott is doing is right or wrong but it looks like this might just be the future.  So do you really want to be on the outside looking in when it comes to trades through II?
> 
> Y-ASK



Even Marriott saydit expects only 20% of owners to join. Even if a disproportionate amount own Hawaii and HHI, if 80% (or even 50%) of owners are left on the outside, I don't foresee a doomsday scenario with II. If I don'tjoin, my main concern is getting a fair shot at reservations at my home resort; II exchanges will be there and if they are not I'll rent my units out.




wuv pooh said:


> Not really.  This is really the cost of the option to cancel one part of your reservation for 10 months.
> 
> Basic financial engineering theory posits that if you can synthetically create the same thing by a two means then they are equivalent.  Under a points system it would not be smart or fair to the other owners to allow a 2bd to be equal to a 1 bd + studio.
> 
> ...



I understand your disincentive  to book a 2BR based on your pesonal circumstances if a 2BR was truly equivalent to a studio + 1BR. But those are not equivalent even if the points were. A 2BR guarantees you the guests stay together. A studio and 1BR don't. I don't have the option to put my 4 year old in a studio on her own (my inlaws - maybe  )...

So while a stock and a put option are equivalent to a call option and a risk free bond, a studio and a 1BR are not equivalent to a 2BR. Therefore, your financial engineering analogy falls apart on this front...

By the way, Starwood has no lockoff fees, owners get what it costs to trade in, and a large unit equals the sum of the parts. Oh, and the club fee is $109, $33 for the 2nd unit and maxes out there. It can be done... Marriott makes one of the least owner friendly developers look like an angel on many fronts.


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## pacheco18 (Jun 26, 2010)

Even if Marriott handles your non points exchanges, do you think your lockoff will get you a larger unit as it often does in II?  I doubt it.  Marriott has no incentive to satisfy that request - they make more money if you trade up with points.


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## wuv pooh (Jun 26, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I understand your disincentive  to book a 2BR based on your pesonal circumstances if a 2BR was truly equivalent to a studio + 1BR. But those are not equivalent even if the points were. A 2BR guarantees you the guests stay together. A studio and 1BR don't. I don't have the option to put my 4 year old in a studio on her own (my inlaws - maybe  )...
> 
> So while a stock and a put option are equivalent to a call option and a risk free bond, a studio and a 1BR are not equivalent to a 2BR. Therefore, your financial engineering analogy falls apart on this front...
> 
> By the way, Starwood has no lockoff fees, owners get what it costs to trade in, and a large unit equals the sum of the parts. Oh, and the club fee is $109, $33 for the 2nd unit and maxes out there. It can be done... Marriott makes one of the least owner friendly developers look like an angel on many fronts.



We can agree to disagree.  I see your point if the resort is built like Harbour Lake with only a limited number of actual lockout units, but for purpose build resorts like Manor Club Sequel I can always get the units combined with a simple call to room control or the GM.  It is not 'guaranteed' but essentially the same thing.  DVC is the only other points system I know well, and they charge more for the sum of the parts than the whole.  Starwood has the same issue, so they redistribute the costs in another manner, but they are costs and you pay for the flexibility one way or the other.  Marriott feels it is better to move from a transaction based system to a points differential.  Again, I see it as just different and no better or worse for the membership as a whole.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

pacheco18 said:


> Even if Marriott handles your non points exchanges, do you think your lockoff will get you a larger unit as it often does in II?  I doubt it.  Marriott has no incentive to satisfy that request - they make more money if you trade up with points.



What people don't seem to be getting is that Marriott will not be directly handling week for week requests. All week for week requests will go through II and II will issue that confirmation. When you call and say you want to try and exchange a Harbour Lake 2BR for a Palm Desert 2BR, Marriott won't initially look in their inventory, the request will be placed directly to II and II will issue the confirmation.

From the exchange procedures document



> Deposit means the submission to the Exchange Company by an Exchange Member of a 7-consecutive evening Use Period that is part of the Member’s Interest during the applicable Deposit Window. *In exchange for each Deposit, Exchange Company will assign the Member with a Distribution of Exchange Points* for use during the Use Year for the Deposited Use Period. The number of Exchange Points that a Member receives for the Deposited Use Period will be determined by the Exchange Company in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion. Members are required to submit Use Periods in 7-consecutive evening increments.


When you deposit your week to Marriott, all they give you is points. Marriott will not give you a week for week exchange unless it is booked using the deposited points. II handles all week for week requests. This is ultimatly transparent to most members until they get the confirmation from II. Marriott won't be pulling weeks back from II to confirm week for week exchanges. They are only a facilitator in placing the request, that is all.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 26, 2010)

DanCali said:


> If you have multiple weeks you can still lock off. All it costs you is about $400. I call this "the hidden lockoff fee". Those who perpetuate the "$199 and done" line are seriously kidding themselves. It's time to put a stop to that...
> 
> Evey lockoff costs you 500 - 1000 points. Since MFs are $0.40 per point, I approximated the rental value of apoint to $0.50. That's $250 - $500 you lose for locking off. Makes the $75 oldlockoff fee look nice, doesn't it?
> 
> see this post for more detail:



This is a bogus assessment.  The lock off fee you pay has absolutely nothing to do with the point difference between a studio + 1br and a 2br lockoff.

If you want to lock off the unit, you just do it and trade as always.  If you deposit your points and trade back into your resort into a 1br and studio, then you aren't using the system properly.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 26, 2010)

DanCali said:


> No, I am dead serious.
> 
> It's ok that you are not a math major, but I have some experience both with numbers as well as teaching, so let's do this slowly...
> 
> ...



Your argument falls apart because you can still lock off without depositing your week into points.  You math is completely wrong.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 26, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I understand what you are saying... But you lose control of your II account and you are going to make those exchanges through Marriott in a manner they did not intend.
> 
> You think the likelihood of getting those exchanges will be the same? Not trying to be the "old Perry" but if I were Marriott I'd let all your II club account deposits expire, so you use points next time around. But that's just me - I'm sure they are alot more ethical and they will let you trade up through a corporate II account rather than skim your points on trades and lockoffs....



You are making a different argument now.  No matter how you slice it, your analysis of the lock off fee is wrong.


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## m61376 (Jun 26, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> You have to remember that this isn't just a points program. You can join the program and lock-off your weeks the old fashioned way, exchange them the old fashioned way and only pay $165 or $199 for ALL of your exchanges. Forget points. Just use the Destination Club to complete your weeks based exchange.
> 
> I'm paying $357 for my exchanges without the Destination Club. I can do the same thing in the Destination Club for $199 WITHOUT using points. So yes, the Destination Club can work for owners who like to lock-off their units and exchange. Heck, if I locked off my units and made 4 exchanges rather than two, the cost for the Destination Club if $199 but, the cost for me if I don't join is $675.
> 
> What you seem to be hung up on is points. You DON'T have to use points. You can still exchange within the Destination Club using weeks and, you're still only charged the one time fee.



Although I will be getting a definitive answer to this question on Monday, the likelihood is that you may have a much harder time making that weeks trade than you did before, if you are looking for a prime property. The one very big difference is whether Marriott has the right to nab week deposits into II to fulfill point owner requests. That means if you want to trade your week in II and someone else deposits exactly what you'd love to get, you may never see it because Marriott may have a points owner's request that they haven't had the inventory to fulfill, and that week may be gone long before you're ever able to see it.

That's a very big difference from what we have now, and makes the point discrepancies pointed out much more of an issue, in my opinion.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Your argument falls apart because you can still lock off without depositing your week into points.  You math is completely wrong.





BocaBum99 said:


> You are making a different argument now.  No matter how you slice it, your analysis of the lock off fee is wrong.



But if as they speculate, the weeks in II dry up. Then the analysis of lock offs makes perfect sense when trying to exchange in to resorts other than your home resort.


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## tombo (Jun 26, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> This is a bogus assessment.  The lock off fee you pay has absolutely nothing to do with the point difference between a studio + 1br and a 2br lockoff.
> 
> If you want to lock off the unit, you just do it and trade as always.  If you deposit your points and trade back into your resort into a 1br and studio, then you aren't using the system properly.



You deposit your week that Marriott charges others 5000 points to reserve and Marriott will only give you 4600 points for it and with their first skim they keep 400 points. Marriott rents the one bed room side of the week you deposited out for 4200 points and the studio side of your week for 1900 points. Marriott gave you 4600 points for the 2 bed lock-off week you deposited, yet they receive 6100 points renting your week to others pocketing 1500 total points in this example. Any owner who deposits their week for points will apy marriott the jacked up prices, and if you deposit your week into points and try to get 2 weeks for it, you won't have enough points to do so.If you value points at .50 per point per year, Marriott skimmed $750 from the owner's deposit which is a heck of a lot more than it would cost you to join II, pay for 2 exchanges, and pay the $75 lock-off fee. Even though the charges are hidden in skimmed points, points have costs and values, and the number of points skimmed in a lock-off is more expensive than locking off and exchanging through II.

The lock-off skim is much larger than the up front deposit skim, because the 2 sides of a lock-off are more valuable in many cases than the 2 bed room since they can provide 2 vacations for 2 separate points owners using the lock-offs. That is why you used to be able to lock-off your weeks and exchange them for multiple weeks with II, and often multiple weeks in 2 bed units for depositing a 1 bed and a studio. Now with the 4600 points marriott gives you for your week can't afford to get a 2 bed room week,  2 one bed units, or even a one bed and a studio at any like resort  (any resort where a week is valued at 5000 points). In fact with the 4600 points Marriott gives you for you can only afford to rent a one bed room like resort/week with a little change left. It is cheaper and better to exchange and reserve with II than to convert to points, and it has been proven here repeatedly showing points charged and points given by Marriott. 

Marriott expects 20% of owners to convert meaning 80% won't leaving most inventory still with weeks and II. Hopefully if we keep exposing the HIGH hidden costs marriott has when you exchange using points, then maybe we can get the per cent converting below 10% for the good of all current owners.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I understand what you are saying, but there is still too much unknown surrounding the II account that is holding me back.
> 
> Will Marriott pick the week to deposit? They say nothing will change. Well in the current system they pick weeks for thousands of owners for deposit. They will still do that in the new system. But will they let you deposit the specific week you reserved? Why would they if they are just going to turn around and take it back. It makes no sense for Marriott to give owners the ability to reserve a week and then deposit in the new system.
> 
> ...



I was also concerned about who picks the week for deposit. The consistant answer is that the owner does. 

Marriott's biggest issue, and TUG members as well, is they didn't train their staff worth a dang before releasing the program. After such a long time in developement you'd have thought they'd have had a better launch with everyone on the same page.

At this point I'm pretty much convinced that very little changes for deeded week owners who join the Destination Club other than who you call to make an exchange or what account number you log on under. Past that, I don't believe deeded week owners are giving up a thing.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 26, 2010)

tombo said:


> You deposit your week that Marriott charges others 5000 points to reserve and Marriott will only give you 4600 points for it and with their first skim they keep 400 points. Marriott rents the one bed room side of the week you deposited out for 4200 points and the studio side of your week for 1900 points. Marriott gave you 4600 points for the 2 bed lock-off week you deposited, yet they receive 6100 points renting your week to others pocketing 1500 total points in this example. If you value points at .50 per point per year, Marriott skimmed $750 from the owner's deposit which is a heck of a lot more than it would cost you to join II, pay for 2 exchanges, and pay the $75 lock-off fee. Even though the charges are hidden in skimmed points, points have costs and values, and the number of points skimmed in a lock-off is more expensive than locking off and exchanging through II.
> 
> The lock-off skim is much larger than the up front deposit skim, because the 2 sides of a lock-off are more valuable in many cases than the 2 bed room since they cab provide 2 vacations for 2 separate points owners using the lock-offs. That is why you used to be able to lock-off your weeks and exchange them for multiple weeks with II, and often multiple weeks in 2 bed units for depositing a 1 bed and a studio. Now with the 4600 points marriott gives you you can't afford to get a 2 bed room week,  2 one bed units, or even a one bed and a studio at any like resort  (any resort where a week is valued at 5000 points). In fact with the 4600 points Marriott gives you for you can only afford to rent a one bed room with a little change left. It is cheaper and better to exchange and reserve with II than to convert to points, and it has been proven here repeatedly showing points charged and points given by Marriott.
> 
> Marriott expects 20% of owners to convert meaning 80% won't leaving most inventory still with weeks and II. Hopefully if we keep exposing the HIGH hidden costs marriott has when you exchange using points, then maybe we can get the per cent converting below 10% for the good of all current owners.



Skim is irrelevant.  It's just a PR gaffe.  You only join or make deposits if you like the trades.  If you don't like them, then don't join.  

II deposits won't dry up.  They just won't be as rich as they were in the past meaning there will be just as much volume, just not as high quality destinations and units.  I can easily argue that the way it used to work was inefficient and worked for saavy timesharers at the expense of the unsaavy timesharers.

I plan to join later when points resales start happening.  What I will do is get a really cheap points package and then do direct trades with Marriott points owners for all types of exchanges.  They transfer their points into my account and I will use them.  I expect my $MF/point will be less than $.20-.25/point.  At that rate, it will be worth it.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

tombo said:


> Marriott expects 20% of owners to convert meaning 80% won't leaving most inventory still with weeks and II. Hopefully if we keep exposing the HIGH hidden costs marriott has when you exchange using points, then maybe we can get the per cent converting below 10% for the good of all current owners.



I can see some good arguments for enrolling that don't involve converting to points EVER. I sound as though I am going to the dark side with Doug and Perry, but we own two lock off weeks. The II annual fee + two lock off fees + four exchange fees is a lot more than the $169 consolidated fee charged by Marriott. I figured the $1995 fee for enrolling our two weeks would pay for itself in four years.

Now a lot is still up in the air about the corporate II account that has us holding back. There is a lot of time to wait and hear about other members actual experiences before enrolling.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

pacheco18 said:


> Even if Marriott handles your non points exchanges, do you think your lockoff will get you a larger unit as it often does in II?  I doubt it.  Marriott has no incentive to satisfy that request - they make more money if you trade up with points.



Marriott isn't satisfying this request. Interval is still the exchange company. I have always moved up in size by doing my own exchange online with that studio unit. According to Marriott, I'll STILL be able to do my own online exchange. So yes, I believe I'll still be able to exchange up.


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## m61376 (Jun 26, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> At this point I'm pretty much convinced that very little changes for deeded week owners who join the Destination Club other than who you call to make an exchange or what account number you log on under. Past that, I don't believe deeded week owners are giving up a thing.



Doug- you really don't think that if Marriott can pluck week the better week deposits from II to fulfill point requests that your exchange ability will not change? Maybe I am missing something, but I don't understand how that wouldn't impact trading.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 26, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> I was also concerned about who picks the week for deposit. The consistant answer is that the owner does.



It doesn't matter what the consistent answer is.  If Marriott isn't doing it now, they will be doing it in the future.  

Marriott's goal is to control owner deposits so that they can assign it as they wish.  That control will give them control of everything.

The best assumption going forward for planning purposes is that Marriott will be controlling deposits into II.  All the best points systems do it.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Although I will be getting a definitive answer to this question on Monday, the likelihood is that you may have a much harder time making that weeks trade than you did before, if you are looking for a prime property. The one very big difference is whether Marriott has the right to nab week deposits into II to fulfill point owner requests. That means if you want to trade your week in II and someone else deposits exactly what you'd love to get, you may never see it because Marriott may have a points owner's request that they haven't had the inventory to fulfill, and that week may be gone long before you're ever able to see it.
> 
> That's a very big difference from what we have now, and makes the point discrepancies pointed out much more of an issue, in my opinion.



As I'm understanding it, the exchange manger fullfills exchange requests, both for points and weeks. If the request exists and the deposited week has the power to pull that request, it will pull the request. 

Marriott has spent 25 years aquiring 400,000 deeded week owners. How long do you think it's going to take them to aquire that many land trust owners? I really don't see this as a problem.


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## m61376 (Jun 26, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> I plan to join later when points resales start happening.  What I will do is get a really cheap points package and then do direct trades with Marriott points owners for all types of exchanges.  They transfer their points into my account and I will use them.  I expect my $MF/point will be less than $.20-.25/point.  At that rate, it will be worth it.



Nice plan- but for now at least they aren't allowing future resales into the program.

I am guessing though that, for the savvy owner, renting points may be a very nice option.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> At this point I'm pretty much convinced that very little changes for deeded week owners who join the Destination Club other than who you call to make an exchange or what account number you log on under. Past that, I don't believe deeded week owners are giving up a thing.



It makes sense. I am more a wait and see kind of person. There is a lot of time between now and 12/31 to read about others actual experiences before enrolling.

Some important things for us with the II account:


Can the owner pick the week to deposit (answered but not consistent between reps)?
Can the owner go to IntervalWorld.com and deposit a week, place a deposit first request, or place request first request?
Can the owner buy II gold membership?
Can the member deposit a studio or 1BR and still request a larger unit or will Marriott and II no longer permit this through the corporate account?


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 26, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I can see some good arguments for enrolling that don't involve converting to points EVER. I sound as though I am going to the dark side with Doug and Perry, but we own two lock off weeks. The II annual fee + two lock off fees + four exchange fees is a lot more than the $169 consolidated fee charged by Marriott. I figured the $1995 fee for enrolling our two weeks would pay for itself in four years.
> 
> Now a lot is still up in the air about the corporate II account that has us holding back. There is a lot of time to wait and hear about other members actual experiences before enrolling.



Marriott set up the system so that people would conclude what you, Perry and Doug have.  What that will do is give Marriott total control of the inventory and the Club, just as they wanted.  It doesn't bother me, it's just a fact.

My base assumption is always that the Resort Developer is doing everything it can to suck value out of current owners.  That's why resale diminish in value so consistently across the board.  This Marriott point system will be no different.

What is also true is that arbitrage opportunities always manifest themselves.  They are now.  Marriott has proactively tried to close many of them upfront.  But, it doesn't matter how hard they try, they will still be there.  When they do, the saavy timesharers will find the new loopholes and exploit them.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Nice plan- but for now at least they aren't allowing future resales into the program.
> 
> I am guessing though that, for the savvy owner, renting points may be a very nice option.



They are if it is a points resale. Those won't appear for about 1.5 to 2 years. However people won't start to get desperate and start selling real low until about year 4 or 5.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 26, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Nice plan- but for now at least they aren't allowing future resales into the program.
> 
> I am guessing though that, for the savvy owner, renting points may be a very nice option.



Yes they will.  Points in the Trust will need to be resellable.  Sure, Marriott will charge a $2000 fee to rejoin, but it will happen.  I'd be willing to bet any amount of money that it will be true.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 26, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> They are if it is a points resale. Those won't appear for about 1.5 to 2 years. However people won't start to get desperate and start selling real low until about year 4 or 5.



Wanna bet?  It will be in about 1.5-2 years until I can get a cheap Marriott points package that will either be bought back to Marriott, or I will own.  You will be shocked to learn how many packages PCCs pick up within 1.5 years of a developer purchase.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> It doesn't matter what the consistent answer is.  If Marriott isn't doing it now, they will be doing it in the future.
> 
> Marriott's goal is to control owner deposits so that they can assign it as they wish.  That control will give them control of everything.
> 
> The best assumption going forward for planning purposes is that Marriott will be controlling deposits into II.  All the best points systems do it.



You could be right. That's one of the risks vs benefits one has to weigh. Will Marriott bite the hand the feeds it?


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## m61376 (Jun 26, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> As I'm understanding it, the exchange manger fullfills exchange requests, both for points and weeks. If the request exists and the deposited week has the power to pull that request, it will pull the request.
> 
> Marriott has spent 25 years aquiring 400,000 deeded week owners. How long do you think it's going to take them to aquire that many land trust owners? I really don't see this as a problem.



They don't need that many land trust owners. All they need is enough converted point owners to make a sizable impact on prime week inventory. There are many properties where perhaps 10 weeks a year are the ones people really want.

As far as the exchange manager pulling the request for both point and week requests- do you really think they will be given equal priority? And- even IF Marriott considered that they were giving them equal priority, by virtue of the fact that most weeks were allotted less points than needed to book the same week, the "value" Marriott assigns to a week deposit is less than the value of points required for that same deposit; therefore, my week request will, in most cases, have less trade value than a comparable point request. Thus, the point request will have priority and week trades will be less likely to get the more premium weeks.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 26, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> As I'm understanding it, the exchange manger fullfills exchange requests, both for points and weeks. If the request exists and the deposited week has the power to pull that request, it will pull the request.
> 
> Marriott has spent 25 years aquiring 400,000 deeded week owners. How long do you think it's going to take them to aquire that many land trust owners? I really don't see this as a problem.



They don't need to have them all in the land trust.  They just need control of all the inventory.  They created a program that gives it to them.  

When you convert to points, you pay them to take control.  I don't blame you, but if you believe otherwise, then you are fooling yourself.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 26, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> You could be right. That's one of the risks vs benefits one has to weigh. Will Marriott bite the hand the feeds it?



Yes, without any doubt.  They will devour you entirely, your entire estate and all of your friends and relatives.  You didn't know that?


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> It doesn't matter what the consistent answer is.  If Marriott isn't doing it now, they will be doing it in the future.
> 
> Marriott's goal is to control owner deposits so that they can assign it as they wish.  That control will give them control of everything.
> 
> The best assumption going forward for planning purposes is that Marriott will be controlling deposits into II.  All the best points systems do it.



This is a big concern for us with regards to entering the program. If Marriott controls the deposits, I would be out of the new exchange program if I could still control those weeks and deposits myself. Though there is nothing preventing them from going the *wood route and controlling all deposits weeks OR points.


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## DanCali (Jun 26, 2010)

duplicate - deleted


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## dougp26364 (Jun 26, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> It makes sense. I am more a wait and see kind of person. There is a lot of time between now and 12/31 to read about others actual experiences before enrolling.
> 
> Some important things for us with the II account:
> 
> ...



I agree. While I'm leaning towards joining, I'm not in any huge hurry. I won't reserve my Ocean Pointe unit until November. I can wait to lock-off the studio unit until then. For that matter, we had been planing on not lock-off for 2011 so even November isn't a firm drop dead date for me. 

While I'm more optimistic, I'm still leary enough to wait and see what others report or their experience. My biggest concern is maintaining control. If I maintain control, I'll join the club. If I lose control I'll stick with what I have now. I'm just not ready to toss the baby out with the bath water at this moment.


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## m61376 (Jun 26, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Yes they will.  Points in the Trust will need to be resellable.  Sure, Marriott will charge a $2000 fee to rejoin, but it will happen.  I'd be willing to bet any amount of money that it will be true.



I'd also be shocked if they weren't resellable. Actually, I am very surprised that they are trying to make it uncertain as to whether they can be resold. I would think prospective buyers would be wary if they had no out option.

And I agree with you that there will be a lot of smaller point packages on the market within 1.5-2 years. All you need to do is read what one of the new posters wrote about his presentation at MGC. He was smarter than most and came here first. How many people have come to Tug weeks or months after making a purchase? Many will believe the hype that a small amount of points lets them get their feet wet at little cost to start exploring all their options; add to the package as your family grows. When they discover that those points get them to the dessert in the summer, they may not be so happy. After finding they can't book what they thought they'd be able to for a year or two, many will be anxious to bag it and get rid of the MF's.


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## DanCali (Jun 26, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Your argument falls apart because you can still lock off without depositing your week into points.  You math is completely wrong.




The argument is 100 percent valid because I am talking about like for like exchanges with points. Read post no 6 again belore you dismiss anything I have to say on this.

Of course you can be enrolled, and still use II when locking off. If you are saying II works better for lockoff exchanges because they rip you off when you use points then we agree on this. But that is my point... you want to use II for these exchanges becuase it's too cost prohibitive to lock off and do two like for like exchanges using points. Timesharers less savvy will just pay those hidden lockoff fees.


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## tschwa2 (Jun 26, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Yes they will.  Points in the Trust will need to be resellable.  Sure, Marriott will charge a $2000 fee to rejoin, but it will happen.  I'd be willing to bet any amount of money that it will be true.



or they can take a page out of Diamond's book and allow resale points members that were originally sold by Marriott to only be used to book weeks from resorts in the trust and not have access to the entire "Club" unless you buy a certain number of points to requalify.


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## DanCali (Jun 27, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> The best assumption going forward for planning purposes is that Marriott will be controlling deposits into II.  All the best points systems do it.



Something we 100% agree on... And it will happenfor weeks owners who don't enroll too,just like Starwood. At that point resale values will be close to zero, just like Starwood voluntary resorts.


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## buzzy (Jun 27, 2010)

davemy said:


> I am so MAD about this new Option! I split my 2 units almost every year and get great trades thru interval. Always upgrades and during school breaks!I plan far ahead. Making 4 weeks of vacations! NOT ANYMORE IF I JOIN POINTS. Also I Bought direct from Marriott and i have never turned my weeks in for rewards points, With the deval in points that is a bad option. Resale owners are signing up because they think that its a GREAT thing, its NOT.



Please keep us posted on what you are going to do....(Powershift too) because we all do the same thing at the same resort.  I am not leaning towards joining but waiting to see how things change when we try to do what we have done in the past and see how difficult it is....then I probably wouldn't join but sell.  If I sell without joining...at first I thought we would get next to peanuts since it membership doesn't transfer but if Marriott is exercizing ROFR...we may not do as bad as we thought.


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## puckmanfl (Jun 27, 2010)

good morning....

Perhaps one can look at the lockoff problem from a different angle.  There is some "skimming" on downsizing units, but upgrading the size can be viewed as an "opportunity". 

Let me explain....

A 2 bedroom deluxe Lakeshore Reserve Pres. week costs 4675 pts.  A 3 bedroom (same time) costs 5175 ts.  This it only costs 500 pts to ADD the studio or 3rd bedroom.  A studio alone is 1900 pts. for the same time frame.  The same math applies for the resorts with lower costs and to upgrade from a 1 bedroom to a 2 bedroom as well...

I know that you have a volume of points to "play" in this fashion, but it can be a useful tool if multiple family members are enrolled (as you can transfer points).  For example,my sibling is also an owner and we often travel together with our families.  In stead of "snagging" 2 units at waiohai (island) for 4500 each, we can get a 3 bedroom at Kauai Lagoons for 5500 (island) thus only costing 2750 points each.

Yes, this is more difficult for the single week owner...

I disagree with much in this system, but just trying to figure out some "Perry" like ways of exploiting it.  When given lemons, make lemonade!!!

No, I am not a paid operative of MVCD


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## DanCali (Jun 27, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> This is a bogus assessment.  The lock off fee you pay has absolutely nothing to do with the point difference between a studio + 1br and a 2br lockoff.
> 
> If you want to lock off the unit, you just do it and trade as always.  If you deposit your points and trade back into your resort into a 1br and studio, then you aren't using the system properly.






BocaBum99 said:


> Your argument falls apart because you can still lock off without depositing your week into points.  You math is completely wrong.



Speaking of bogus - where did the idea that you can do II weeks trades from within the points system and save on II and lockoff fees come from?

From what I read in the docs - "one and done" does not cover weeks trades...

From II guide page 5 - *Week-Based Exchange Method *(applicable to Individual Members as well *as those Club Program Exchange Members who choose to continue to receive exchange benefits from II based on the relinquishment of a Week*). Where such Club Program Members or Individual Members own a “floating” Vacation Interest, they must first secure a specific Week for a specific type of unit at their Marriott Resort prior to submitting an exchange request. The reservation information must then be submitted to II.

1. ...
2. ...
3. ...
4. ...
5. No fee is required to deposit vacation accommodations. *An exchange
fee, however, is required when placing an exchange request against the
deposited accommodations.*

(This is contrary to the points exchanges which specify "An exchange fee is
required when placing an exchange request for a Member Resort, other
than a Marriott Resort")


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## davemy (Jun 27, 2010)

buzzy, i don't know if you seen my post a few days a go, But for the heck of it i signed up to get on the wait list for Marriott to sell my Beacplace unit. I figure it will takes years for this to happen. Untill then I'm using it next year at Easter, using the whole unit. I have no Plans on joining the points program! I am in the wait and see mode. There is no rush for people to join if you bought direct from marriott. Also, I plan on staying with a non Marriott Interval account untill trades become to difficult.


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## camachinist (Jun 27, 2010)

> Speaking of bogus - where did the idea that you can do II weeks trades from within the points system and save on II and lockoff fees come from?



Thanks for that recitation. It makes sense. If one wants the 'great deal' of the all-inclusive fee, one must convert their enrolled week to points to use the internal system. It appears, regardless of whether a 'personal' account is required, a deposit of one's enrolled but not 'exchanged for points' week causes the triggering of an II exchange fee (presume current M->M fee) when making a request for exchange to another Marriott resort. 

I'd be interested to read more perspective on this and how it figures into a strategy to use (or not use) the new system....


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## JimIg23 (Jun 27, 2010)

DanCali said:


> *An exchange
> fee, however, is required when placing an exchange request against the
> deposited accommodations.*
> 
> (")



That is interesting.  I was told by a marriott rep that depositing your deeded week into II and asking for a Marriott to Marriott exchange was FREE.  He said you only get charged for an exchange into non-Marriott resorts.  What is written above sounds different.  

I think I need to call back and ask them to look at that.  If that is the case, you only get the II access (If you actually do) and lock offs for the yearly fee.  

I really hope by the end of July a Tugger can get on to II with their new number so they can check all this out.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 27, 2010)

camachinist said:


> Thanks for that recitation. It makes sense. If one wants the 'great deal' of the all-inclusive fee, one must convert their enrolled week to points to use the internal system. It appears, regardless of whether a 'personal' account is required, a deposit of one's enrolled but not 'exchanged for points' week causes the triggering of an II exchange fee (presume current M->M fee) when making a request for exchange to another Marriott resort.
> 
> I'd be interested to read more perspective on this and how it figures into a strategy to use (or not use) the new system....



This doesn't appear to be the case. Check out the simplified fee structure examples on the discover tab at my-vacationclub.com.


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## Dave M (Jun 27, 2010)

There appears to be a conflict in the printed information. I have submitted the following question to a person I believe to be knowledgable:



> There seems to be a conflict in wording in various documents regarding the fee for an Internal (Marriott-to-Marriott) exchange through II by an Enrolled Owner who uses his/her week (not points) for an exchange.
> 
> The language at https://www.my-vacationclub.com/en-us/owners/1_exchangeEnroll.jsp clearly states that "Enrolled Owners’ fees for internal exchanges are included in their Club Dues." There is language on that page that states that the owner should deposit through II.
> 
> ...


Stay tuned.


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## JimIg23 (Jun 27, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> This doesn't appear to be the case. Check out the simplified fee structure examples on the discover tab at my-vacationclub.com.



This aligns with what the rep told me, Marriott to Marriott exchanges are free in II, but you pay for Marriott to third party TSs.  

I give up


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## camachinist (Jun 27, 2010)

NO! This thread needs 2000 posts too! 

Somehow I feel like we're live unpaid beta testers for a new system


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## 5infam (Jun 27, 2010)

OK - so let's say that I do not pay an extra fee to II to exchange inside of the Marriott system. It still costs me more money and vacation time in the long run. I own 1 week, 1 bedroom - so no lock off fees for me. I pay $89 a year, plus $109 every other year to exchange back into my resort. That is $287 every 2 years, in total. If I join the points program and do the same thing, it is $165 per year, so the 2 year cost is $330 - not to mention the $1,495 up front for the privilege to pay more than I am paying now!!! Then, top that off with no more AC's. Every time I trade my Maui week (and remember, I am trading right back into my home resort), I get an AC, which I have used for Las Vegas, New Orleans and Cancun. All gone for me with the points program. 

Let's say I do enroll, and pay all the fees mentioned above, but this time I want to go to Cancun again, but use my week instead of an AC, since I no longer get AC's. Well that is outside of Marriott and I will definitely have to pay II a fee to make this exchange happen. So those fees are on top of the higher fees I am paying already.

So let's say I don't join at all. As of now, it appears that Marriott controls the II system, and I probably won't be able to trade back into my home resort, as I do every other year. As it stands now, the way I use II, deposit first with a strong week, I always get back in quickly, as I am first on the list with my home resort priority. It sounds like that goes away, and therefore, the argument of *"just join and it is the same thing, just don't trade for points"* and the argument of *"then don't join and nothing will change for you"* all goes down the toilet for me. The fact is, I may be forced to join if I want to keep doing what I am doing now - and that still may not get me back into my home resort, if Marriott gives priority to points requesters over weeks exchangers. 

Feel free to poke holes in any or all of my concerns - as a matter of fact, I welcome it. I want to be wrong and like this new system. I can see where every 5 years or so, I could trade in a week in for points and get a week in the Caribbean and have a few week days of points left over for Vegas. But that does not help me with how I vacation now, where I can do the same thing with II, using a great trader and get 2 full weeks (with an AC) at a reduced annual cost and no sign up of $1,495!!!


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## m61376 (Jun 27, 2010)

Dave M said:


> There appears to be a conflict in the printed information. I have submitted the following question to a person I believe to be knowledgable:
> 
> Stay tuned.



Dave- Thanks! I must say I asked this question and was told unequivocally that it was one of the benefits of the new system. In fact, when I was complaining about the relatively low point allocation for Surf Club Plat. units (including the fact that I cannot reserve a single week in my season with the point allocation, as well as the fact that last week Marriott charged close to 5K more for an OS view than an OV view, and this week suddenly the enhanced view has no added worth and both have the same point allocation), I was told that the program was not intended to replace my week and that I'd get the best value out of using my week and trading my week as before, but in the new program there wouldn't be the lock off or trade fees. 

I wish they'd get their stories straight.

Since this thread is about lock-offs, and the question really relates to all week trading through II, I think it would be a good idea to start a new thread with the response that you receive so that it doesn't get lost, since it is an important point to clarify. There have been several posts by people feeling that they'll join and still trade in weeks, but enjoy the savings in fees. It would be nice to go in with our eyes open.


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## JimIg23 (Jun 27, 2010)

Dave M said:


> There appears to be a conflict in the printed information. I have submitted the following question to a person I believe to be knowledgable:
> 
> Stay tuned.



Dave

If you are asking about II, can you also see about on line access?  I was told we will have full web access to II with the new # you are given.  

i agree with m61376, it shoudl be a new thread so people can see it.  It will get lost in here....

Thx  Jim


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## buzzy (Jun 27, 2010)

davemy said:


> buzzy, i don't know if you seen my post a few days a go, But for the heck of it i signed up to get on the wait list for Marriott to sell my Beacplace unit. I figure it will takes years for this to happen. Untill then I'm using it next year at Easter, using the whole unit. I have no Plans on joining the points program! I am in the wait and see mode. There is no rush for people to join if you bought direct from marriott. Also, I plan on staying with a non Marriott Interval account untill trades become to difficult.



No, I missed your post where you signed up for the wait list.  May I ask why you want to sell and what is the difference selling through Marriott vs. the open market.  I have 1 deposit unfullfilled and have to rejoin II as it expires soon...just not sure what to do...to many unknowns out there to make a decision yet....


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## Dave M (Jun 27, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> If you are asking about II, can you also see about on line access?  I was told we will have full web access to II with the new # you are given.


Yes, that's one of five "burning" questions I have asked. I'm supposed to have a conference call regarding my questions on Monday, Tuesday or Wedneday, depending on various schedules.

I'll post the answers - if I think I get dependable responses - in a new thread and or in threads that are devoted to specific applicable topics. That's all I have to say on this for now.


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## davidvel (Jun 27, 2010)

Dave M said:


> Yes, that's one of five "burning" questions I have asked. I'm supposed to have a conference call regarding my questions on Monday, Tuesday or Wedneday, depending on various schedules.
> 
> I'll post the answers - if I think I get dependable responses - in a new thread and or in threads that are devoted to specific applicable topics. That's all I have to say on this for now.



Dave, you are an amazing asset (as a poster and Mod.), and give us great info, but sometimes the cloak-and-dagger trumps Perry M!!


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## PerryM (Jun 28, 2010)

*So many puzzle pieces....*



davemy said:


> I am so MAD about this new Option! I split my 2 units almost every year and get great trades thru interval. Always upgrades and during school breaks!I plan far ahead. Making 4 weeks of vacations! NOT ANYMORE IF I JOIN POINTS. Also I Bought direct from Marriott and i have never turned my weeks in for rewards points, With the deval in points that is a bad option. Resale owners are signing up because they think that its a GREAT thing, its NOT.



Before I go to bed to night I am marveling at the "New Math" over here - the sum of the parts MUST equal the whole or there is thievery at work.

Tell that to the parts guy at the Toyota dealership - you want to order all the parts to your new Toyota and they had better add up to the cost of the new car.

Good night - have fun...

P.S.
Ok, I'll give you guys the correct answer - you get a quantity discount when you 2 parts in one transaction.  See I don't need to even talk timeshares to bring some sanity to these arguments.


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## davidvel (Jun 28, 2010)

PerryM said:


> Before I go to bed to night I am marveling at the "New Math" over here - the sum of the parts MUST equal the whole or there is thievery at work.
> 
> Tell that to the parts guy at the Toyota dealership - you want to order all the parts to your new Toyota and they had better add up to the cost of the new car.
> 
> ...



Nice try, but I think its the other way around...


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## Latravel (Jun 28, 2010)

DanCali said:


> No, I am dead serious.
> 
> It's ok that you are not a math major, but I have some experience both with numbers as well as teaching, so let's do this slowly...
> 
> I hope this clarifies what I meant?



You know, you always print this statement but I don't see any particularly ingenious math equations. 

I believe your theory is incorrect because you can use the $199 fee and never trade your unit in for destination points.  There goes your underlining theory.  I plan to join to consolidate my Marriott fees to lock off and trade but never plan to trade my unit for destination points.

So, I never encounter skimming or devaluation.  I just use the system to my advantage, and sharing that knowledge is what we do here on TUG.


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## DanCali (Jun 28, 2010)

Latravel said:


> You know, you always print this statement but I don't see any particularly ingenious math equations.
> 
> I believe your theory is incorrect because you can use the $199 fee and never trade your unit in for destination points.  There goes your underlining theory.  I plan to join to consolidate my Marriott fees to lock off and trade but never plan to trade my unit for destination points.
> 
> So, I never encounter skimming or devaluation.  I just use the system to my advantage, and sharing that knowledge is what we do here on TUG.



Boy, you and BocaBum...so quick to embrace a system you don't even understand the implications of... and to criticize others who bother to analyze the nuts and bolts as information becomes available.

First off, the "theory" posted earlier in this thread is not a theory - it's an opinion. In my opinion, the hidden skimming and lockoff costs I describe in post #6 are real costs and are a total ripoff. But they were concealed very well by Marriott under the disguise of the "one fee and done"

As for getting around those costs and saving money on II by enrolling in points and doing unlimited "free" weeks exchanges the old fashoned way, I assume you wrote your post before you you read this:



DanCali said:


> Speaking of bogus - where did the idea that you can do II weeks trades from within the points system and save on II and lockoff fees come from?
> 
> From what I read in the docs - "one and done" does not cover weeks trades...
> 
> ...



Good luck using II for free weeks exchanges after enrolling... Do you honestly think Marriott would let you join points so you can do unlimited II week exchanges for $199? They are not stupid; that is one loophole they certainly thought of and it appears it has been addressed unequivocally. 

I wish the inventory question was addressed with the same level of clarity.


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## ral (Jun 28, 2010)

tombo said:


> You deposit your week that Marriott charges others 5000 points to reserve and Marriott will only give you 4600 points for it and with their first skim they keep 400 points. Marriott rents the one bed room side of the week you deposited out for 4200 points and the studio side of your week for 1900 points. Marriott gave you 4600 points for the 2 bed lock-off week you deposited, yet they receive 6100 points renting your week to others pocketing 1500 total points in this example. Any owner who deposits their week for points will apy marriott the jacked up prices, and if you deposit your week into points and try to get 2 weeks for it, you won't have enough points to do so.If you value points at .50 per point per year, Marriott skimmed $750 from the owner's deposit which is a heck of a lot more than it would cost you to join II, pay for 2 exchanges, and pay the $75 lock-off fee. Even though the charges are hidden in skimmed points, points have costs and values, and the number of points skimmed in a lock-off is more expensive than locking off and exchanging through II.
> 
> The lock-off skim is much larger than the up front deposit skim, because the 2 sides of a lock-off are more valuable in many cases than the 2 bed room since they can provide 2 vacations for 2 separate points owners using the lock-offs. That is why you used to be able to lock-off your weeks and exchange them for multiple weeks with II, and often multiple weeks in 2 bed units for depositing a 1 bed and a studio. Now with the 4600 points marriott gives you for your week can't afford to get a 2 bed room week,  2 one bed units, or even a one bed and a studio at any like resort  (any resort where a week is valued at 5000 points). In fact with the 4600 points Marriott gives you for you can only afford to rent a one bed room like resort/week with a little change left. It is cheaper and better to exchange and reserve with II than to convert to points, and it has been proven here repeatedly showing points charged and points given by Marriott.
> 
> Marriott expects 20% of owners to convert meaning 80% won't leaving most inventory still with weeks and II. Hopefully if we keep exposing the HIGH hidden costs marriott has when you exchange using points, then maybe we can get the per cent converting below 10% for the good of all current owners.



Very well stated. TUG Members like you are looking at all sides of this situation, trying to make it more transparent. I appreciate your post.


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## davemy (Jun 28, 2010)

Excellent post by Tombo!!! I AGREE!


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## dougp26364 (Jun 28, 2010)

Latravel said:


> You know, you always print this statement but I don't see any particularly ingenious math equations.
> 
> I believe your theory is incorrect because you can use the $199 fee and never trade your unit in for destination points.  There goes your underlining theory.  I plan to join to consolidate my Marriott fees to lock off and trade but never plan to trade my unit for destination points.
> 
> So, I never encounter skimming or devaluation.  I just use the system to my advantage, and sharing that knowledge is what we do here on TUG.



At issue right now is Marriott double speak. In the rules it states you'll continue to pay exchange fee's unless you deposit your weeks to points. On my-vacationclub.com and what Marriott reps are saying is that those fee's are included in the yearly membership fee. 

So which is it? If I join but never deposit my weeks into points, do I still have to pay exchange fee's? If that's the case the only advantage is not paying the lock-off fee or the fee to convert to Marriott Rewards points. Marriott Rewards points have been devalued to a point it makes little sense to spend a timeshare week on them. Saving the lock-off fee on two units is less than the membership fee.

So what am I left with? The option to deposit my two weeks into a points program where Marriott skims off the top, giving Marriott $695 up front plus $199/year to save the cost of locking off both units and the right to have their "exchange" manager handle my exchanges when it's not clear if they'll favor points exchangers ahead of weeks exchangers.

Marriott should have had their act straight on this program right from the start. As it is they've allowed a lot of this program up to interpretation. There appears to be a lot of language that allows Marriott to change the rules and price structure at their whim. 

So now I'm back to square one. I have time to sit on the fence about this new program. I'm going to wait and see how this works itself out. I want some guarentee that my rights as an owner aren't going to be trampled on by Marriott but so far I'm not finding that to be especially true.


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## GetawaysRus (Jun 28, 2010)

Tombo points out how the "points skim" and loss of trading value (the ability you had in the past to get 2 weeks of vacation from a lock-off) is greater for lock-off owners.

I think you have to add that the points program looks even worse for those who own only a single lock-off week (as I do) compared to those who own multiple weeks.  Those with multiple weeks could join the points program with the intention of never trading any weeks for points.  They could continue doing weeks exchanges as they have in the past, but they would still get the benefit that their one annual fee to Marriott would offset the current cost of the multiple exchanges they now may make.  Over a period of years, this would cover the cost of enrollment n the points program, and they would then start to slowly benefit from reduced exchange fees each year.

For me, with only one lock-off week, it's much harder to see how I would gain from the points program.  Points exchanges are not attractive because the number of points I would be given for my week is so low (in my case, 2150 for my Gold season week).  With only 2150 points, I'd probably go from my current situation (2 weeks of vacation from my one lock-off) to only one week of vacation (and perhaps only 5 days of vacation, which might have to be Sunday through Thursday).  It's more attractive for me to continue to do weeks exchanges just as I have done in the past, but with the small number of exchanges that I make there just isn't much (if any) gain that would offset the ponts program enrollment fee.

I feel that Marriott has offered me a raw deal.  And I think I'd feel even worse if I owned a Silver week instead of my Gold week.  With Silver, the number of points you get is even worse.

To attract me, Marriott needed to design a program that would be win-win.  With this program, the win looks very one sided.  I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out how I could win under the terms of the new program.


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## pwrshift (Jun 30, 2010)

Tombo's post makes sense to me too.  

In 2009, 13 months ahead, I booked two owner weeks for the last week of June and the July 4th 2010 week following at Manor Club...the highest valued weeks of the year at this resort.  Immediately asked II to use my studio deposit on file to get me either of the weeks I booked at MMC.  They did.  So I took my owned week at MMC and II got me a 2 bdrm suite at Beachplace for President Week 2011 -another prime week.  Figure out how that could be done on the new system...and how many points it would take.

Here's a case of using the current system to upgrade to larger suites and/or prime time at another resort ... And not to have to deal with inflated points or skimming.  How could anyone with lockoffs think the new plan was the way to go?


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## dioxide45 (Jun 30, 2010)

pwrshift said:


> How could anyone with lockoffs think the new plan was the way to go?



The only potential benefit would be the consolidated fee. However there are risks. Marriott can change the rules on how you deposit weeks in to II. It seems that they will still allow owners to reserve the week they want and deposit it. Though there is always the chance they will go the Starwood route and pick that week for deposit for you.


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