# Worldmark and Wyndham



## truthseeker1 (Jun 30, 2018)

the short - presently on a 2 year “trial” membership with a fixed number of points.

I need advice - a sales person was trying to talk us into converting to ownership explaining that our original contract price (over $2 but under $3 per credit) was “worth” more under the new corporation.

They seemed to be implying that it was a Wyndham ownership at an old Worldmark price (ie a “good deal”) as they no longer offer even close to that pricing since the “big change”.

He did say one caveat that it would be $99 extra to stay at a Wyndham resort but that they were higher quality (and also cost more points per night even in addition to the $99 fee).

However they waved around a kindle fire with a Wyndham logo that would be our “booklet” instead of the old worldmark books that we saw last time.

Reading all the posts about getting points on 40 cents on the dollar makes it seem like this is not a “good deal” however, I’m still curious.

The only reason I have to believe the salesperson is that even in “walking away” they didn’t offer anything any better so far (where as last time they were wheeling and dealing which is why we’re in this trial thing in the first place).

My other concern is getting nickled and dimed to death on ever increasing maintenance fees or other hidden housekeeping-ish costs.

Also would the extra $2 per credit above the purported resale cost even be remotely worth it to buy from the developer?

As far as quality of product.  We’re staying at a wm property now and it’s well maintained and in very good order but not over the top or luxury (Formica counter tops, 5-10 year old white apartment-grade kitchen appliances, smallish tv maybe 37 or 42 inches).  Furniture is a bit newer it seems all in good shape.

It suites our needs fine traveling with a child, but we’ve also stayed at more “luxurious” resorts.

I’m wondering how the Wyndham properties really compare...


----------



## lauramiddl (Jun 30, 2018)

truthseeker1 said:


> Also would the extra $2 per credit above the purported resale cost even be remotely worth it to buy from the developer?



No

I've never ever seen the "extra" benefits that come with a developer purchase pencil out. For a typical 2br annual contract (10,000-12,000 credits), you'd pay an extra $20,000-24,000.

With the money you save buying resale, you can easily rent what you want where you want. Especially if you're only wanting a wyndham property every few years. 

If you think you would regularly want to stay at wyndham properties, look into buying a wyndham resale.


----------



## truthseeker1 (Jun 30, 2018)

Cool.

Thanks for the info.


----------



## geist1223 (Jun 30, 2018)

What the Salesman was pushing was Worldmark Points with Travelshare Points from the Developer. Resell Points can only directly Book into the 80 to 90 Worldmark Resorts. Resell WM Points can Book into Wyndham and other Timeshare Resorts through II or RCI and other trade organizations. So if you are happy with the average WM resorts you do not need Travelshare/Developer Points. Many people to include most Sales people do not truly understand the relationship between Worldmark and Wyndham. Wyndham does not own Worldmark Resorts. Wyndham is the Developer for Worldmark. This means Wyndham builds or acquires Resort properties and then turns over the property to Worldmark. Wyndham then has the right to sell Points generated by those Resorts. The independent (ha) WM BOD sets policy for Worldmark. The independent (ha) WM BOD has separately retained Wyndham to be the day to day Manager of the WM Resorts. WM has no employees. WM consists of the Resorts and it's Members.

Is it worth it to have Travelshare/Developer Points in order to directly Book into Wyndham Resorts at about 10X the up front cost? That is an individual choice. Most Members of TUG and Worldmark will tell you no. But as an example for a WM Members to Book a 2 Bedroom at Bali Hai on Kauai. Through Wyndham Pass this would cost you the $99 trade fee and 20,000 WM Points. To Book this same Resort through RCI it would cost you 10,000 WM Points and the $239 (May now be $249) trade fee. I will admit it is easier to Book Bali Hai through Wyndham Pass than RCI. The cancellation policy is also better with Wyndham Pass than RCI. But it will cost you twice the number of Points for the same Reservation and the large up front costs.

There are some other benefits(?) of Developer/Travelshare WM Points that most people say are not worth the up front costs  such as the ability to Book Directly into Worldmark South Pacific - New Zealand and Australia, etc.

Also if you have lots of WM Points (Developer or resell) you can Book into the Penthouse or Presidential  Units at a WM Resort. These have the Granite Counter Tops, stone/tile floors, etc. But they will cost you substantially more WM Points.


----------



## Lisa P (Jun 30, 2018)

lauramiddl said:


> No ... With the money you save buying resale, you can easily rent ...
> If you think you would regularly want to stay at wyndham properties, look into buying a wyndham resale.


Totally agree.


geist1223 said:


> Also if you have lots of WM Points (Developer or resell) you can Book into the Penthouse or Presidential  Units at a WM Resort. These have the Granite Counter Tops, stone/tile floors, etc. But they will cost you substantially more WM Points.


Right and this is still generally cheaper resale.

If you are considering a resale purchase of WM credits vs. Wyn points, the decision may depend on where you you actually want to vacation, and not just the deluxe features.  A number of the nicer and newer resorts are shared properties between the two programs with some units in each but the proportion of inventory is heavier on one side or the other.  Where do you want to go?

Also, if you primarily want luxury resorts, you may find that a different system offers more of that.  We find the Wyndham properties to be comfortable, clean, well-stocked and well-maintained, nicely refurbished on a regular basis, and offering excellent resort activities, amenities and landscaping.  We've loved our vacations at these lovely resorts.  However, perhaps with the exception of Presidential Reserve units, most Wyndham resorts are not in the top tier of luxury resorts.  If you want that consistently, and can afford it, you may also consider some other systems.  Resale, of course.


----------



## DaveNV (Jun 30, 2018)

I think a point to consider is where you live, and where you like to travel.  WorldMark tends to be heavily West-Coast-centered, with only a relative handful of resorts in the eastern part of the country.  Wyndham has a presence all over the place.  Using WorldMark credits to regularly trade into Wyndham properties seems counterproductive, no matter the cost.  As was mentioned, if you think you'll stay at Wyndham most often, buy Wyndham.  Conversely, if you happen to live in the West, and if WorldMark provides a level of comfort you're happy with, then it may be the option you might choose.  

Research is key, as is an honest assessment of what your vacation experience needs to be.  A lot of people think they "need" granite countertops and fancy-schmancy accommodations, where for others, the location is more important.  Granite countertops are nice, but if you're only spending sleeping hours in the unit, you're spending a lot more for something you aren't really using very much.

Dave


----------



## truthseeker1 (Jun 30, 2018)

Thank you all of you, this is great information.

Anyone know why they were now “waving around” a Wyndham branded tablet as the “book” of points?  Is it the same worldmark book with a different skin or is it truly something special like the developer salesperson seemed to imply?


----------



## DaveNV (Jun 30, 2018)

I haven't seen the tablet you were shown, but it doesn't sound like more than a digital version of the available account.  Smoke and mirrors in the digital age.  They can only let you reserve locations that are available, so a pretty digital image isn't worth much if there is no availability at that resort.  The fact that they were waving it around, and (it doesn't sound like) they didn't let you look at it one-on-one, so I'd put it down to salesman commi$$ion rhetoric.  From the WorldMark page there is a link to book Wyndham (if you have Travelshare) so maybe that's what they were waving around.  As the old saying goes, "points are points."

Dave


----------



## truthseeker1 (Jun 30, 2018)

Ok thank you so much for your excellent information, this is extremely helpful.


----------



## rhonda (Jun 30, 2018)

truthseeker1 said:


> Thank you all of you, this is great information.
> 
> Anyone know why they were now “waving around” a Wyndham branded tablet as the “book” of points?  Is it the same worldmark book with a different skin or is it truly something special like the developer salesperson seemed to imply?


The reason I've heard:  It is more difficult for the new buyer to find the "Recision" document on the tablet than when provided in a packet of printed forms.


----------



## ronparise (Jul 1, 2018)

geist1223 said:


> What the Salesman was pushing was Worldmark Points with Travelshare Points from the Developer. Resell Points can only directly Book into the 80 to 90 Worldmark Resorts. Resell WM Points can Book into Wyndham and other Timeshare Resorts through II or RCI and other trade organizations. So if you are happy with the average WM resorts you do not need Travelshare/Developer Points. Many people to include most Sales people do not truly understand the relationship between Worldmark and Wyndham. Wyndham does not own Worldmark Resorts. Wyndham is the Developer for Worldmark. This means Wyndham builds or acquires Resort properties and then turns over the property to Worldmark. Wyndham then has the right to sell Points generated by those Resorts. The independent (ha) WM BOD sets policy for Worldmark. The independent (ha) WM BOD has separately retained Wyndham to be the day to day Manager of the WM Resorts. WM has no employees. WM consists of the Resorts and it's Members.
> 
> Is it worth it to have Travelshare/Developer Points in order to directly Book into Wyndham Resorts at about 10X the up front cost? That is an individual choice. Most Members of TUG and Worldmark will tell you no. But as an example for a WM Members to Book a 2 Bedroom at Bali Hai on Kauai. Through Wyndham Pass this would cost you the $99 trade fee and 20,000 WM Points. To Book this same Resort through RCI it would cost you 10,000 WM Points and the $239 (May now be $249) trade fee. I will admit it is easier to Book Bali Hai through Wyndham Pass than RCI. The cancellation policy is also better with Wyndham Pass than RCI. But it will cost you twice the number of Points for the same Reservation and the large up front costs.
> 
> ...


 

I have a hard time reading the post I quoted above, as it is as wrong and misleading as the salesman’s pitch

1) resale or developer purchases can exchange through Rci and II
The $99 exchange mentioned by the op is in the internal exchange program Wyndham runs whereby a Club Wyndham plus owners can use  their points for Worldmark reservations and Worldmark owners can use theie credits for Club Wyndham reservations

The catch is that only developer purchased credits (and Wyndham points) work in this exchanged program. So resale owners have to be happy with what they own or exchange through Rci or buy both clubs

2) wyndham dosent own the Worldmark resorts, that’s true; the club owns the properties. But Wyndham doesn’t own the club Wyndham resorts either the owners own them.

Wyndham is the developer and manager of both systems

Now here’s the thing without a developer and manager there is no timeshare system. And the resorts would be just a pile of lumber and bricks

To be sure, wyndham is a strong manager and they have packed the board of directors with their own employees and folks that will do their bidding and some people don’t like that.  Mr Geist is one of the many owners that have for years tried to vote wyndham out of control

Most members don’t care who sits on the board as long as the the place is clean and comfortable when we check in
*******^^*^^******************

Bottom line; from the salesman’s perspective $2 per credit is cheaper than $3. But he’s not telling you that you can buy on the secondary market for 30 cents

The only difference is that developer credits come with Travelshare benefits.  So the question a prospective buyer should be asking is.   what are the travelshare benefits and are they worth the extra money

Travelshare allows you to use your credits for things other than Reservations at Worldmark resorts. We have already mentioned that you can use them for Club Wyndham Reservations. But you can also use them for cruises, car rentals and other travel related things.  But here’s the catch. You have to pay maintenance fees each year to use your credits ie every credit costs you something each year so essentially when you spend credits you are spending money. And the money you spend using credits outside the system is significantly more than if you just used cash. The ratio used to be you get less than 5 cents of value  for every 7 cents you spend on maintenance fees

It’s your money , you have to decide


----------



## geist1223 (Jul 1, 2018)

I don't understand how it is confusing. I specifically said with Wyndham Pass the fee is $99. I specifically said the $239($249) was with RCI. But perhaps Ron is getting old and needs new glasses.

Also there is never been a Vote to remove Wyndham as the Manager. You might ask Ron why he was thrown off the forum for www.wmowners.com.


----------



## ronparise (Jul 1, 2018)

Exactly right. I misread what you said about Rci

But regarding the relationship between Wyndham and Worldmark I don’t think that there is any question that the sales people understand it  perfectly well 

My pet peave is when you say wyndham dosent own Worldmark.  Of course they don’t 

I drive a Ford and the ford name is plastered all over the vehicle. No one is confused by that. I mean no one thinks that ford owns my car

I’m in a Ramada inn tonight and the sign says “Ramada Inn by Wyndham”. I don’t think anyone is confused. Wyndham dosent own this hotel and neither does Ramada We all know this or if we don’t, we don’t care as long as the place is meets Ramada standards 

You and the others that love to say “wyndham dosent own Worldmark” must be trying to make some sort of point. Perhaps because I’m getting old and senile  I just don’t get what it is.   I really don’t


----------



## ronparise (Jul 1, 2018)

geist1223 said:


> I don't understand how it is confusing. I specifically said with Wyndham Pass the fee is $99. I specifically said the $239($249) was with RCI. But perhaps Ron is getting old and needs new glasses.
> 
> Also there is never been a Vote to remove Wyndham as the Manager. You might ask Ron why he was thrown off the forum for www.wmowners.com.


I didn’t say anything about a vote to remove Wyndham as a manager. I mentioned wmowners annual effort to take control of the board of directors Every year those guys solicit proxies to vote for an owner over a wyndham employee for the board


----------



## ecwinch (Jul 1, 2018)

rhonda said:


> The reason I've heard:  It is more difficult for the new buyer to find the "Recision" document on the tablet than when provided in a packet of printed forms.



I dont believe this to be true. They still have to sign a paper contract, and the state mandated disclosures are still part of the contract.


----------



## rleigh (Jul 2, 2018)

You're getting a lot of info here for a person just starting to consider buying.

Here's my limited input:

Never buy directly. It's NEVER worth it. Buy from a reputable company that handles owner-to-owner purchases. Some also buy from eBay. 

Other than choosing which timeshare to buy, that's most important.

wmowners.com has a section dedicated to this that is very informative and well-organized. They also cover the pros and cons of WM.

Take a look at WM and Wyndham and maybe others to see what fits your needs.

WM is very flexible. One of the best benefits is Waitlists for a chance to get a date/place that's full. 

I totally agree regarding  nickel & diming. That's one thing that bothers me but I still find it overall well worth it.

Also know that many properties don't have air conditioning. That's my number one complaint.


----------



## taterhed (Jul 2, 2018)

So here's my contribution:

Most WM properties are on the West Coast etc.....  Yup.  But Interval International and RCI are on ALL the coasts.  Period.
Resale WM isn't Wyndham.  Maybe someday Wyndham will get their way....but not yet. Otherwise...I wouldn't own it.
Resale WM is less than $.40 cents a point--all in and fully loaded.  Pay more and you're paying too much.

So, you do the math:  $.40 cents or $2 dollars plus.  No amount of 'extra' benefits can overcome that in the current state of affairs.  If you need more....buy a different and complimentary system to go with it.  WM SP or Wyndham or Marriott etc....  Still probably cheaper.

The key is know what you want to do first.....and then figure out how to make that happen at an affordable cost and with a process you can use to actually make the reservations.

cheers.


----------



## truthseeker1 (Jul 4, 2018)

Thank you all for helping me to make an informed decision.

My big do the math is if the $700 to $1500 yearly maintenance fees mean I’m still getting a good deal - not for a week or even a series of nights at the travelodge or Motel 6 it certainly seems, but for longer stays at a decently appointed condo plus amenities it probably works out to a reasonable good deal (as long as you’re willing to book 6-13 months in advance for the “hotspots”).

Top it off with bonus time, sales, and the waitlist (we already experienced this for our first stay), it’s not so bad at all.  Especially for a West-coaster.

If it was really a really big bargain it probably wouldn’t be for long, but it does seem to work in the favor of those who understand and know how to work the system.

It seems to be an awful deal, however if you buy retail with all the hidden nickel and dime costs to do anything outside of the W.M box (which is why you’d want to buy retail in the first place), plus including the maintenance fees, travel share fees, housekeeping, etc.

Interestingly enough my cell phone seemed to have signal in their sales unit when I arrived, but by the time we were in negotiations I had no signal, I thought it was just a dead corner of the unit, but when I stepped outside of the unit to the outdoor hallway to try and get signal I couldn’t get any either, which made me wonder a bit.

I guess the only flip side is if no one bought retail they wouldn’t be able to sustain or expand...

If you buy used you can get a pretty good bargain it seems with minimal sacrifice of “extras”, at least on the cost of the points themselves.

So far I haven’t seen any “bargain” on the maintenance fees albeit hitting close to the 2500 point mark with your purchase seems to help some, from what I’ve been reading.

Anyone who bought used here have any regrets (aside from the price paid if it was too high)?


----------



## DaveNV (Jul 4, 2018)

truthseeker1 said:


> Anyone who bought used here have any regrets (aside from the price paid if it was too high)?



Just the opposite:  I have no regrets.  I bought WorldMark last Fall on eBay.  I got a fully-loaded 12K account for $1556 out the door - Seller paid all closing costs. My maintenance fees are about $82 a month, billed quarterly. On closing, the surprise was an extra 12K credits in the account I wasn't expecting, effectively giving me a year's credits for free.  By my math, I paid ~13 cents a credit, which is about one-third the going rate. So I got a killer bargain, by all accounts.  Yes, I pay Housekeeping once I've used the token that comes with my annual allotment.  And no, I don't have access to those Wyndham portal things.  But I can rent locations from Wyndham owners, when and where needed.  No sense paying retail for a "benefit" I'm not likely to use.  I currently have four vacations planned through next Spring, and I haven't touched the credits that will drop into my account next month, on my anniversary date.  I'm a happy owner.

Dave


----------



## izzymail (Jul 5, 2018)

No regrets! I bought mine in 2017 and I have made 3 stays so far. You have hit most of the pros and cons. The value is good and the process fairly simple once you understand it. If I bought retail I would definitely have big regrets, but resale is great.


----------



## mash84121 (Jul 5, 2018)

We love our WorldMark. We bought four years ago resale 12,000 points for a fraction of what we would have paid retail. The only thing I would add is that like all timeshares you have to plan ahead. The prime locations and prime seasons book early. But that is not unique to WorldMark and if you plan ahead you can get any resort. Having a purely points based system evens the playing field for booking.


----------



## taterhed (Jul 5, 2018)

I have two resale WM accounts:  love em.

I'm actually very surprised how far the WM credits go with selective reservations, Monday/Madness and more.
Most flexible system I know of.  Where else can you grab a Marriott week off interval for <$600?


----------



## rhonda (Jul 5, 2018)

No regrets.  WM owners for 18+ years ... have ~145 reservations in our history page.  Use lots of cash reservation methods: Monday Madness, Bonus Time, etc, and get a lot of mileage from our ownership.  Love our Worldmark!


----------



## bbodb1 (Jul 8, 2018)

Just to add to Rob's point from earlier in this thread, we just returned from Worldmark Blaine and were offered a purchase (deal) with the following parameters:
5000 credits
$14,549 total purchase price (and fees)
about $2.90 per credit
Terms were $5700 down payment
120 month financing
monthly payment of $155.35 on 17.49% interest
WorldMark dues of $515.88 (I'm assuming that is a yearly amount)

We were in and out within the promised 60 minutes and the presentation was very low pressure.  I had a few questions about WorldMark that were answered and overall I found the presentation informative.  While I understand the best advice is to NEVER attend a sales presentation (in any form) I did learn more about the workings of WorldMark so for me (a non WorldMark owner) I was okay with this. 

Obviously, we did NOT purchase because as Rob notes above, I can find much better deals resale but I did want to document this as the current offer for anyone interested.

I should also mention that WorldMark doesn't work as well for us given our location is NOT proximate to any WorldMark locations we want to visit.  However, the WorldMark system continues to intrigue me and we might benefit from it when we retire.


----------



## DaveNV (Jul 8, 2018)

bbodb1 said:


> we just returned from Worldmark Blaine



How did you like the resort?  Did Birch Bay have one of their amazing super-low tides while you were there?

Dave


----------



## bbodb1 (Jul 8, 2018)

DaveNW said:


> How did you like the resort?  Did Birch Bay have one of their amazing super-low tides while you were there?
> 
> Dave



The resort was nice, Dave - thanks for asking!  By the way, I thought I would add some info in the thread on WorldMark Birch Bay about our stay as well...
I'm not sure if they had one of their super low tides during our stay but I was amazed just how far out the tide went during the low tide cycle.  One morning, we walked out into the bay quite a away and we were still in dry land and continued to go even further out and never got in water much above our knees.  As we turned to head back in, we were surprised how far out we had wandered.  We took our time coming back in with the tide and watched it slowly engulf one exposed area after another.  It was quite a tranquil morning as this was well before the 4th of July (and not so many people there at that time).  
Boy did the 4th of July bring about a different scene!


----------



## DaveNV (Jul 8, 2018)

bbodb1 said:


> The resort was nice, Dave - thanks for asking!  By the way, I thought I would add some info in the thread on WorldMark Birch Bay about our stay as well...
> I'm not sure if they had one of their super low tides during our stay but I was amazed just how far out the tide went during the low tide cycle.  One morning, we walked out into the bay quite a away and we were still in dry land and continued to go even further out and never got in water much above our knees.  As we turned to head back in, we were surprised how far out we had wandered.  We took our time coming back in with the tide and watched it slowly engulf one exposed area after another.  It was quite a tranquil morning as this was well before the 4th of July (and not so many people there at that time).
> Boy did the 4th of July bring about a different scene!



Great to hear. I used to live about a mile down the Birch Bay-Lynden Road from the beach there.  Things have become more developed since then, but it's still a great place to get away.

The 4th gets VERY busy out there.  Being so close to the Border, a lot of Canadians come south, especially since Canada Day is July 1st. Then a lot of Americans head north for the 4th, and they all converge on Birch Bay.  When I was a kid living in Bellingham, going to Birch Bay in Summer was a major deal for us - it was our little piece of resort paradise.  When the waterslides opened, it was like our own theme park. 

Did you get a chance to wander through the State Park right there? It's a really nice place in Summer.

Dave


----------

