# TUG Worldmark for sale classifieds



## navegar (Jul 27, 2010)

after reading what I can find about World mark and concluding that it is a pure points based system 
I was very surprised to find the following in a TUG classified sale list search for :"Worldmark":

only two listings poped, one for 
Worldmark Surfside Inn, USA,WA,Ocean Park 
and the other for 
WorldMark Dolphin's Cove, USA,CA,Anaheim 

and in both casses discuing listing with out refrence to points and suggesting this was a traditional deeded week / location specific time share.

Are some WM properties a mix between deeded time shares and points based membership?


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## DeniseM (Jul 27, 2010)

Some resorts were originally owned by other developers, and many owners didn't convert to points when they were bought out by Worldmark.


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## cotraveller (Jul 27, 2010)

There are a number of resorts that are shared by WorldMark and other timeshare systems.  Dlophins Cove in Anaheim has WorldMark and Wyndham units, as does Ocean Walk in Datonya Beach.  Surfside is only partially WorldMark but I'm not sure who has the other units.

The Village at SteamBoat, Steamboat Springs, Colorado has three buildings that are WorldMark, two buildings that are Wyndham, and one building that is Vacation Internationale.

There are no non-point (or credit in WorldMark terms) WorldMark units even though units belonging to other timeshare companies in the same complex may be deeded.


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## LLW (Jul 27, 2010)

navegar said:


> after reading what I can find about World mark and concluding that it is a pure points based system
> I was very surprised to find the following in a TUG classified sale list search for :"Worldmark":
> 
> only two listings poped, one for
> ...




As has been mentioned, WM co-owns properties at some resorts. This ownership may be in terms of fixed units, floating units, or just fixed or floating weeks. The other owners may be other timeshare systems, small independent timeshares, or individuals. Surfside and Dolphin's Cove are two such resorts. 

These ads, if they are for deeded properties, are not for WM ownership. WM is purely point-based. Owners at joint properties sometimes refer to their properties as WM such and such, to give a point of reference.

If you buy into WM, you would not be buying into the advertised units. You would be buying into the Club, which owns some of the other units at those resorts.


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## tschwa2 (Jul 27, 2010)

You would need to go to "Ad type" for points and  use the drop down menu to find WorldMark.  Otherwise it looks for resorts with Worldmark in the title.


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## navegar (Jul 27, 2010)

*life is simplicity*

Thanks all

very interesting.  Got to learn how to recognize the shallows.

If anyone was selling a WM "credit" membership on the TUG classifieds would it come up in a serach for "WorldMark", "for Sale" or is that the most likely way to find them?

I have seen a number of sales on the WM owners site, and thru 3rd party resellers but not here on TUG.

thanks again.


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## navegar (Jul 27, 2010)

ok
I found it now
add type first, not resort name first

thanks again


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## djyamyam (Jul 27, 2010)

cotraveller said:


> Dlophins Cove in Anaheim has WorldMark and Wyndham units,



Does WM still have units in DC?  I thought when they developed their own resort with the new WM Anaheim that they pulled out of DC?


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## Shon_t (Jul 27, 2010)

djyamyam said:


> Does WM still have units in DC?  I thought when they developed their own resort with the new WM Anaheim that they pulled out of DC?



They still have the same number of units at DC.


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## LLW (Jul 28, 2010)

djyamyam said:


> Does WM still have units in DC?  I thought when they developed their own resort with the new WM Anaheim that they pulled out of DC?




Rooms at Dolphin's Cove often are booked out before those at the new Anaheim, as Anaheim is 65%-75% more expensive in terms of credits and therefore MF.


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## cotraveller (Jul 28, 2010)

LLW said:


> Rooms at Dolphin's Cove often are booked out before those at the new Anaheim, as Anaheim is 65%-75% more expensive in terms of credits and *therefore MF*.



236 units at the new Anaheim resort and only 35 WorldMark units at Dolphins's Cove could have a lot to do with Dolphins Cove filling first.  Still incorrectly tying WorldMark maintenance fees to a resort I see.


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## DeniseM (Jul 28, 2010)

Fred - I think everyone else understands what LLC is saying.  When you consider the number of points needed to make a reservation, don't you evaluate it in terms of cost?  I know I do.


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## djyamyam (Jul 28, 2010)

cotraveller said:


> ...only 35 WorldMark units at Dolphins's Cove



That's not a lot at all.  As a legacy weeks owner at DC, I was a bit concerned although I've never had an issue being able to book my units there.


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## cotraveller (Jul 28, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Fred - I think everyone else understands what LLC is saying.  When you consider the number of points needed to make a reservation, don't you evaluate it in terms of cost?  I know I do.



Not in terms of Maintenance Dues, no.  Why not link dues to a Presidential unit at St George in Red Season?  Those require 24,000 credits per week to book.  Or a Seaside 3 bedroom penthouse in Blue season at 14,000 credits?  That's how a fixed week resort works. Maintenance fees are not only per resort, they are based on which week, which season, and which unit you own. Referring to the maintenance dues for a specific WorldMark resort gives the impression that WorldMark maintenance fees also work that way.  That is not the case.

We had this discussion in a different thread a couple of days ago.  WorldMark maintenance fees are tied to account size, not to a resort, or unit, or season or anything else other than account size.  If someone can show me a WorldMark document that lists maintenance fees per resort rather than per account size I will drop the subject.  In the meantime it only adds confusion to try to link dues to a specific WorldMark resort.


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## LLW (Jul 28, 2010)

cotraveller said:


> 236 units at the new Anaheim resort and only *35* WorldMark units at Dolphins's Cove could have a lot to do with Dolphins Cove filling first.  Still incorrectly tying WorldMark maintenance fees to a resort I see.



Actually, 34, per the Worldmark Unit Breakdown in the Owner Education Handbook.

Maybe you can afford not to calculate the financial costs when you book. But when I book nights at a WM resort, I first compute the cost, then decide whether I want to pay that much for those nights, for the particular unit type. If I pay 2,550 credits for 3 nights in a 2BR at Discovery Bay, that translates to $127.50 for the 3 nights. If I have to pay 6,100 credits for 2 nights in a 2BR Presidential at Anaheim, that translates to $305. It doesn't mean that I won't book Anaheim - I did. But that's the way I make an informed decision. I was trained as an accountant. How do engineers do it?



djyamyam said:


> That's not a lot at all.  As a legacy weeks owner at DC, I was a bit concerned although I've never had an issue being able to book my units there.



I don't think legacy owners have to worry. Of the 136 total units (per WM) at DC, only 34 are WM (in total weeks). I have heard that those are the leftover weeks that Fairfield wanted to get rid of by the time they wanted to finish selling (so Wyndham wouldn't want WM to pull out). WM normally has a 13 month booking window, but we were told they reduced it to 12 months so that we can only book at the same time legacy owners can book (is that true?).

But now it's a cheaper alternative to the new WM Anaheim. It has turned out to be good for some WM owners.


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## DeniseM (Jul 28, 2010)

cotraveller said:


> Not in terms of Maintenance Dues, no.



Then you must have a lot more money than I do!


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## djyamyam (Jul 28, 2010)

LLW said:


> Rooms at Dolphin's Cove often are booked out before those at the new Anaheim, as Anaheim is 65%-75% more expensive in terms of credits and therefore MF.





cotraveller said:


> Not in terms of Maintenance Dues, no.  Why not link dues to a Presidential unit at St George in Red Season?  Those require 24,000 credits per week to book.  Or a Seaside 3 bedroom penthouse in Blue season at 14,000 credits?...Referring to the maintenance dues for a specific WorldMark resort gives the impression that WorldMark maintenance fees also work that way.  That is not the case.





LLW said:


> But that's the way I make an informed decision. I was trained as an accountant. How do engineers do it?



Great, two "it's out by a decimal place; it has to be precise" geeks duking it out!     I would say the context is that if it costs 6000 points to book a 2BR at DC and 10000 at WM Anaheim, it's going to cost X% more in points and associated relative MF booking cost, regardless of what MF/point cost your ownership is.  Then you compare the newness/amenity factor of the two resorts and see if the extra cost is worth the value.  That'll be different for each person.  




LLW said:


> WM normally has a 13 month booking window, but we were told they reduced it to 12 months so that we can only book at the same time legacy owners can book (is that true?).



Yes.  Legacy owners can only book 1 year out.  I'm not sure what the rule is for Wyn points owners that have DC as the home resort.


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## cruisin (Jul 28, 2010)

cotraveller said:


> Not in terms of Maintenance Dues, no.  Why not link dues to a Presidential unit at St George in Red Season?  Those require 24,000 credits per week to book.  Or a Seaside 3 bedroom penthouse in Blue season at 14,000 credits?  That's how a fixed week resort works. Maintenance fees are not only per resort, they are based on which week, which season, and which unit you own. Referring to the maintenance dues for a specific WorldMark resort gives the impression that WorldMark maintenance fees also work that way.  That is not the case.
> 
> We had this discussion in a different thread a couple of days ago.  WorldMark maintenance fees are tied to account size, not to a resort, or unit, or season or anything else other than account size.  If someone can show me a WorldMark document that lists maintenance fees per resort rather than per account size I will drop the subject.  In the meantime it only adds confusion to try to link dues to a specific WorldMark resort.



A worldmark owner pays maintenence fees every year for their account, you can figure the cost of staying at a resort by how many credits the stay requires and multiply that by how much you pay in maintenence fees for each  credit, If I have 10,000 credits and my maintenence fees are $700 a year for that account, and I book a 10,000 credit week, my cost is $700 for that week.If I book a 5,000 point week, it cost me $350 to stay. Is there another way to figure the costs? 

Another way of looking at it is,  that the cost to stay for a week, is whatever price was  paid to stay there? Cost = Money spent.


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## cotraveller (Jul 28, 2010)

LLW said:


> Actually, 34, per the Worldmark Unit Breakdown in the Owner Education Handbook.



Who you going to believe?  35 units at Dolphin's Cove per the 2009 Annual Auditors report.  



LLW said:


> Maybe you can afford not to calculate the financial costs when you book. But when I book nights at a WM resort, I first compute the cost, then decide whether I want to pay that much for those nights, for the particular unit type. If I pay 2,550 credits for 3 nights in a 2BR at Discovery Bay, that translates to $127.50 for the 3 nights. If I have to pay 6,100 credits for 2 nights in a 2BR Presidential at Anaheim, that translates to $305. It doesn't mean that I won't book Anaheim - I did. But that's the way I make an informed decision. I was trained as an accountant. How do engineers do it?



And where do your cost figures come from?  2,550 credits at $127.50 translates to 5 cents per credit.  6,100 credits at $305 gives the same 5 cents per credit result.  So is the 5 cents per credit tied to Discovery Bay or to Anaheim?  The correct answer is neither, it is tied to your account size which is what determines you annual dues.

What if I decide to go to Clear Lake in a studio during Blue Season every year?  That's only 3,000 credits.  Using your method of tying the maintenance fees to the resort I should have very low maintenance fees.  But I don't, I will have to pay $363.93 per year because the minimum account size is 5,000 credits.  So to use 3,000 credits every year will cost me over 12 cents per credit in maintenance dues? Do I let those extra 2,000 credits expire or will I do a little extra work to recover some of the cost using those  credits I don't need?

Trying to tie the maintenance dues to a specific resort creates confusion. The WorldMark governing documents, about which some harp over and over saying they should be followed, states very clearly that maintenance fees are tied to the number of credits.  The forumula given in the bylaws only references the number of credits, there is no mention resorts. Why not adhere to the governing documents concerning maintenance dues?  Why add confusion by implying otherwise?

I considered going into the different thinking of engineers and accounts, but it doesn't seem relavent.  



DeniseM said:


> Then you must have a lot more money than I do!



If I do it's because I pay low WorldMark maintenance fees based on my account size rather than the high fees associated with all those deeded resorts you own.  



cruisin said:


> A worldmark owner pays maintenence fees every year for their account, you can figure the cost of staying at a resort by how many credits the stay requires and multiply that by how much you pay in maintenence fees for each  credit, If I have 10,000 credits and my maintenence fees are $700 a year for that account, and I book a 10,000 credit week, my cost is $700 for that week.If I book a 5,000 point week, it cost me $350 to stay. Is there another way to figure the costs?
> 
> Another way of looking at it is,  that the cost to stay for a week, is whatever price was  paid to stay there? Cost = Money spent.



When you book that 5,000 point week you still have to pay dues based on 10,000 credits.  Your out of pocket $$ cost for the year does not change.  That's because the maintenance dues are tied to the number of credits in your account, not to what you do with them.


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## LLW (Jul 28, 2010)

cotraveller said:


> What if I decide to go to Clear Lake in a studio during Blue Season every year?  That's only 3,000 credits.  Using your method of tying the maintenance fees to the resort I should have very low maintenance fees.  But I don't, I will have to pay $363.93 per year because the minimum account size is 5,000 credits.  So to use 3,000 credits every year will cost me over 12 cents per credit in maintenance dues? Do I let those extra 2,000 credits expire or will I do a little extra work to recover some of the cost using those  credits I don't need?




If you own 5000 credits and only use 3000 every year, you rent out the 2000, or book a reservation for a guest, or......... Your cost for owning the account is the MF for 5000, but your cost to use the blue studio week at Clear Lake is the MF for the 3000. If you decide to not get reimbursed for the 2000 that you don't use, it's a different decision.


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## cotraveller (Jul 28, 2010)

LLW said:


> If you own 5000 credits and only use 3000 every year, you rent out the 2000, or book a reservation for a guest, or......... *Your cost for owning the account is the MF for 5000, but your cost to use the blue studio week at Clear Lake is the MF for the 3000*. If you decide to not get reimbursed for the 2000 that you don't use, it's a different decision.



Maybe we're getting somewhere now. Your statement recognizes the difference between cost of ownership and cost of an induvidual trip.

If I own 10,000 WorldMark credits my annual recurring cost of that ownership is currently $584.81 for the maintenance dues on my account.

I can choose to use those 10,000 credits any way I want, it does not affect my annual cost.  I can book a Thursday and Friday night in a 3 bedroom presidental unit at Steamboat Springs in red season and use almost all of those 10,000 credits.  Or I can book a 1 bedroom unit for a week in white season plus a 1 bedroom week in blue season at the same resort and still be within my annual allotment of 10,000 credits.  

Which of those choices I make does not affect my annual maintenance fees. My annual recurring cost is the same in either case.  It is $584.81 because that is the current annual maintenance dues on 10,000 credits.  Ok, I expect someone to jump in now and mention the extra housekeeping I will pay for booking two weeks.  That is not an annual recurring cost.

The cost of a vacation is dependent on many factors, the unit cost is just one of them.  Do I fly or drive?  Do I go out or eat in?  Do I have steak or hamburger.  Those types of decisions do not affect my annual maintenance dues or my annual cost of ownership.

If you want to get into credit rentals and other ways of dealing with one time use credits, either to add or remove them from your account, that is a different issue.  As I said earlier, in either this thread or the other one where we were talking about WorldMark maintenance dues there are many ways to add or remove one time use credits from your account.  Credit rental is just one of them.

Will I enjoy two days in a luxurious Presidential Suite more than two weeks in a one bedroom unit?  That would require a detailed trade off analysis of all the factors.  That is an engineering function.


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## jhoug (Jul 28, 2010)

*Worldmark listings on eBay*

Worldmark on eBay has to be listed in conjuction with a resort per eBay requirements, hence why you are finding such listings, even though Worldmark is purely points-based.  I have bought one-time use points to add to my account from Timeshare Angels and they have to list it that way now too.  It was not so years ago. They just pick a resort that seems most desirable.  Have even seen points for Monterey which has very few units.


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## LLW (Jul 28, 2010)

cotraveller said:


> Maybe we're getting somewhere now. Your statement recognizes the difference between cost of ownership and cost of an induvidual trip.
> 
> If I own 10,000 WorldMark credits my annual recurring cost of that ownership is currently $584.81 for the maintenance dues on my account.
> 
> ...




Most people understand the difference between the cost of ownership and the cost of a trip - maybe to your surprise. 

Your statement above is a rather short term view of timeshare ownership. Long term, you can change the cost of ownership by changing the account. That's why so many Tuggers are trying to get rid of many of their timeshares. As a WM owner, you can split and sell 5K credits off your 10K account, and change the cost of those WM vacations, if you only want to use 5K per year. Maybe engineering studies do not take into account management discretion in making changes?

While you own 10K credits, the MF per credit is your total MF divided by 10K. The MF cost of your vacations using those credits is total credits for the trip times the per credit MF. After you change the account to 5K, the MF per credit is your total MF divided by 5K.

JMHO. Your mileage varies.


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## cruisin (Jul 28, 2010)

LLW said:


> Most people understand the difference between the cost of ownership and the cost of a trip - maybe to your surprise.
> 
> Your statement above is a rather short term view of timeshare ownership. Long term, you can change the cost of ownership by changing the account. That's why so many Tuggers are trying to get rid of many of their timeshares. As a WM owner, you can split and sell 5K credits off your 10K account, and change the cost of those WM vacations, if you only want to use 5K per year. Maybe engineering studies do not take into account management discretion in making changes?
> 
> ...




Am I missing something? If I spend $400 for a room at a resort, isn't my cost for the room $400. 

I booked 4 weeknights at West Yellowstone next year, I then booked the weekend in a nice room at the old faithfull lodge, it was cheaper than booking friday and saturday at the worldmark, and a very neat location. We always look at the $$$  we spend on lodging as the cost to stay there.


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## cotraveller (Jul 28, 2010)

LLW said:


> Most people understand the difference between the cost of ownership and the cost of a trip - maybe to your surprise.



Yep, seems surprising that people recognize that difference based on what I've read here.  The recurring cost of ownership is based on the annual maintenance dues, which for WorldMark are based on the size of the account.  The cost of a trip includes lodging, travel expense to get from here to there, meals, cost of activities at the location I am visiting, etc., etc.   Maybe to your surprise there is a difference between recurring costs and non-recurring costs.  Engineers understand those things.  



LLW said:


> Your statement above is a rather short term view of timeshare ownership. Long term, you can change the cost of ownership by changing the account. That's why so many Tuggers are trying to get rid of many of their timeshares. As a WM owner, you can split and sell 5K credits off your 10K account, and change the cost of those WM vacations, if you only want to use 5K per year. Maybe engineering studies do not take into account management discretion in making changes?



Engineers tend to look at all factors and contingencies, not just the financial ones.  As a WorldMark owner there are many things I can do to take as many or as few trips as I wish, staying at many different resorts or the same one over and over or none at all.  If I take one trip or 100 my annual recurring costs are based on the maintenance dues I pay which are based on the size of the account I own.
Edited to add - engineers take care of adapting to changes, whether it be in their personal situations or due to management dictates.  That's part of the long term engineering planning.



LLW said:


> *While you own 10K credits, the MF per credit is your total MF divided by 10K*. The MF cost of your vacations using those credits is total credits for the trip times the per credit MF. *After you change the account to 5K, the MF per credit is your total MF divided by 5K*.



Thanks, that's exactly my point.  My maintenance dues are based on the number of credits I own.  If the account size changes the maintenance dues change. Whew, it took a long time, but I'm glad to see that you finally agree.


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## sue1947 (Jul 28, 2010)

Fred said:
"Whew, it took a long time, but I'm glad to see that you finally agree. "

Actually, I think you are finally agreeing with LLW but just can't admit you were wrong.   
Obviously, the cost of owning an account is included in the cost of any vacation you use that account for.  If you are doing exchanges, using the maintenance fees to translate credits into cash is the only reasonable way to evaluate and compare exchanges.  I'm not sure why you insist on keeping the cost of an account separate, but I don't keep my account just to look at it; I use it.  If I use it for 2 vacations, the maintenance fees will be split between the 2.  Since the current maintenance fee schedule is at 0.05/credit, that is the value I will assess to the credits needed for each vacation.  Obviously, travel costs are extra but this discussion is about how to cost out the lodging portion of your trip.  

Sue


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## cruisin (Jul 28, 2010)

sue1947 said:


> Fred said:
> "Whew, it took a long time, but I'm glad to see that you finally agree. "
> 
> Actually, I think you are finally agreeing with LLW but just can't admit you were wrong.
> ...




There must have been another reason for this discussion besides LLW's ability to figure the cost of her room? My guess is that shes pretty good at spending her $$$$.


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## cotraveller (Jul 29, 2010)

sue1947 said:


> Fred said:
> 
> Actually, I think you are finally agreeing with LLW but just can't admit you were wrong.
> 
> ...



Nope, this discussion is not about how to cost a trip, or any portion of a trip. It is about how that 5 cents per credit fee you and others are using is determined.  Here's a list for some different size WorldMark accounts. Rounded to the nearest tenth of a cent.


 5,000 credits, $363.69/year, 7.3 cents per credit
 6,000 credits, $474.25/year, 7.9 cents per credit
 7,000 credits, $474.25/year, 6.8 cents per credit
 8,000 credits, $584.81/year, 7.3 cents per credit
 9,000 credits, $584.81/year, 6.5 cents per credit
10,000 credits, $584.81/year, 5.8 cents per credit
15,000 credits, $805.93/year, 5.4 cents per credit
20,000 credits, $1027.05/year, 5.13 cents per credit
30,000 credits, $1469.29/year, 4.9 cents per credit
50,000 credits, $2353.77/year, 4.7 cents per credit
.
 etc., etc., etc
 ;

The annual maintenance fee divided by the number of credits in the account gives you the equivalent cost per credit.  It is not a fixed number.  It's determined by, and only by, how many credits are in your account.

It's a simple concept, it should be easy to understand.

IMHBCO I am not wrong.


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## deedman (Jul 29, 2010)

thanks for posting that cotraveller. that chart re-affirms what all the pros have been telling me about buying 6000 credits and renting the rest at around 5.5 cents, b/c if you don't buy 15000 credits or more its not worth it, and you have a larger up front purchase price.


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## LLW (Jul 29, 2010)

cotraveller said:


> Nope, this discussion is not about how to cost a trip, or any portion of a trip. It is about how that 5 cents per credit fee you and others are using is determined.  Here's a list for some different size WorldMark accounts. Rounded to the nearest tenth of a cent.
> 
> 
> 5,000 credits, $363.69/year, 7.3 cents per credit
> ...




And for those who don't know, the declining MF cost per credit is because for every account there is a fixed MF charge of $142.57, and a variable portion based on how many credits you own. The more credits you own, the more the fixed charge of $142.57 may be spread over. The formula may be found here:
http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25787&sid=435137e301a7af36d2ac1f11c5897fcb

I wanted to say we would have to agree to disagree, except I don't even know what we are disagreeing on.  Is it that you don't agree that the new Anaheim is more expensive than the old Anaheim based on credits, and the new Long Beach (Wa.) is more expensive than the old Long Beach, Fred?


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## cruisin (Jul 29, 2010)

LLW said:


> And for those who don't know, the declining MF cost per credit is because for every account there is a fixed MF charge of $142.57, and a variable portion based on how many credits you own. The more credits you own, the more the fixed charge of $142.57 may be spread over. The formula may be found here:
> http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25787&sid=435137e301a7af36d2ac1f11c5897fcb
> 
> I wanted to say we would have to agree to disagree, except I don't even know what we are disagreeing on.  Is it that you don't agree that the new Anaheim is more expensive than the old Anaheim based on credits, and the new Long Beach (Wa.) is more expensive than the old Long Beach, Fred?



I know if I want to have enough credits to book at the new Anaheim, I will  have to buy a larger account, and my maintenence fees will go up.  Using the above chart, it will be more than $300 more a year in maintenence fees, or I could rent them at 5.5 cents a credit give or take.


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## cotraveller (Jul 29, 2010)

LLW said:


> I wanted to say we would have to agree to disagree, except I don't even know what we are disagreeing on.  Is it that you don't agree that the new Anaheim is more expensive than the old Anaheim based on credits, and the new Long Beach (Wa.) is more expensive than the old Long Beach, Fred?



The statement that it takes more credits to book the newer Anaheim resort than it does to book Dolphin's Cove is a fact, easily verifiable by looking at the credit values tables or book. Same for Long Beach compared to Surfside.  Same as for booking a Penthouse or Presidential unit compared to a standard 2 or 3 bedroom unit.

What started the whole discussion was your statement that linked maintenance fees to a specific resort.  That is where we disagreed as I said that was not true, maintenance fees are strictly a function of the account size, independent of where or how you use them.  

From there it sort of degenerated into an engineer and an accountant presenting different points of view.  That happened all the time when I was actively employed as an engineer, I suspect it still goes on within companies today. There were a lot of smilies spread through the thread.  I took everything in a light hearted mannner and I hope you did too. And maybe along the way some others learned some more about WorldMark.  If so we both accomplished a little something even if we still disagree about the maintenance fees.  C'est la vie, the world would be very boring if everyone agreed about everything.


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## LLW (Jul 30, 2010)

cotraveller said:


> The statement that it takes more credits to book the newer Anaheim resort than it does to book Dolphin's Cove is a fact, easily verifiable by looking at the credit values tables or book. Same for Long Beach compared to Surfside.  *Same as for booking a Penthouse or Presidential unit compared to a standard 2 or 3 bedroom unit.*
> 
> What started the whole discussion was your statement that linked maintenance fees to a specific resort.  That is where we disagreed as I said that was not true, maintenance fees are strictly a function of the account size, independent of where or how you use them.
> 
> From there it sort of degenerated into an engineer and an accountant presenting different points of view.  That happened all the time when I was actively employed as an engineer, I suspect it still goes on within companies today. There were a lot of smilies spread through the thread.  I took everything in a light hearted mannner and I hope you did too. And maybe along the way some others learned some more about WorldMark.  If so we both accomplished a little something even if we still disagree about the maintenance fees.  C'est la vie, the world would be very boring if everyone agreed about everything.



If somebody asks what is the cost of booking a 3BR Presidential at Estes Park for one week in red season, what would you tell her/him?


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## cruisin (Jul 30, 2010)

LLW said:


> If somebody asks what is the cost of booking a 3BR Presidential at Estes Park for one week in red season, what would you tell her/him?



I would tell them to multiply the 26,000 credits  it takes to book the room by the maintenence fee per credit and that would be the cost. My maintnence fees are close to 5 cents a credit, so I would say it costs me $1300 and a housekeeping to book the unit. Cost = Money spent.


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## cotraveller (Jul 30, 2010)

LLW said:


> If somebody asks what is the cost of booking a 3BR Presidential at Estes Park for one week in red season, what would you tell her/him?



I would tell them that it requires 26,000 WorldMark credits to book a week in a 3 bedroom Presidential unit at Estes Park in Red Season.

To answer the next question that is likely to be asked, if they asked me what the maintenance dues are on a 26,000 credit account are I would tell them that currently they are $1,358.73 per year.

That does not mean that the annual dues at WorldMark Estes Park are $1,358.73.  That's the type of wrong statement that started this whole discussion.


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## LLW (Jul 31, 2010)

LLW said:


> Rooms at Dolphin's Cove often are booked out before those at the new Anaheim, as Anaheim is 65%-75% more expensive in terms of credits and therefore MF.





cotraveller said:


> 236 units at the new Anaheim resort and only 35 WorldMark units at Dolphins's Cove could have a lot to do with Dolphins Cove filling first.  Still incorrectly tying WorldMark maintenance fees to a resort I see.





cotraveller said:


> *I would tell them that it requires 26,000 WorldMark credits to book a week in a 3 bedroom Presidential unit at Estes Park in Red Season.
> 
> To answer the next question that is likely to be asked, if they asked me what the maintenance dues are on a 26,000 credit account are I would tell them that currently they are $1,358.73 per year.*
> 
> That does not mean that the annual dues at WorldMark Estes Park are $1,358.73.  That's the type of wrong statement that started this whole discussion.



OK, in order to enable them to go find the cost themselves (so that they can research for any unit at any resort), instead of just giving them the numbers yourself, don't you have to tell them where to go to find out (1) how many credits it costs, (2) how much would those credits cost in MF? In other words, they have to find (a) the unit size at the resort in the Resort Gallery, to look up how many credits it takes, and (b) the MF for those credits in the MF Schedule. Correct?

You first have to go to the Resort (in the Resort Gallery), and find the unit size and the related credits, then go to the MF Schedule to find the related maintenance fees. Correct? You can find all unit sizes at the resort in that resort's Resort Gallery. Correct?

I said, in the post in this thread that started this discussion, "Anaheim is 65%-75% more expensive in terms of credits and therefore MF." Dolphin's Cove has only 3 unit types: 1-, 2-, and 3-BRs. MF for those unit types at Anaheim are 75%, 65%, and 67% more expensive, respectively - I actually did the calculations before I posted   .


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## ecwinch (Jul 31, 2010)

cotraveller said:


> I would tell them that it requires 26,000 WorldMark credits to book a week in a 3 bedroom Presidential unit at Estes Park in Red Season.
> 
> To answer the next question that is likely to be asked, if they asked me what the maintenance dues are on a 26,000 credit account are I would tell them that currently they are $1,358.73 per year.
> 
> That does not mean that the annual dues at WorldMark Estes Park are $1,358.73.  That's the *type of wrong statement* that started this whole discussion.



Contrast the two statements (in the context of the discussion):

Annual dues at WorldMark Estes Park are $1,358.73 

to:

Annual dues, _if you want enough credits to get a 3BR Penthouse for a summer week every year without renting credits_, at WorldMark Estes Park would be $1,358.73.

People logically view their membership in terms of the usage benefit they receive. While the latter statement might be more accurate, I think you are being rather hyper-technical to suggest Lynn is making a "wrong statement".


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## cotraveller (Jul 31, 2010)

LLW said:


> *Anaheim is 65%-75% more expensive in terms of credits *



If you stop with just the part I quoted, you are correct.  When you add



LLW said:


> *and therefore MF*.



You are creating an invalid relationship.  You are relating WorldMark maintenance fees with a specific resort.  That is incorrect, they are a function of, and only of, account size.

If I pick up a two bedroom unit at Anaheim as a 4,000 WorldMark credit Instant Exchange through RCI does that mean that the Maintenance fees for WorldMark Anaheim are $200 (using the oft quoted WorldMark maintenance fee number of 5 cents per credit that has been used in this thread)?  If I get the Anaheim unit in exchange for an expensive Hawaii resort with annual maintenance fees of $1,500  does that mean that the maintenance fees for WorldMark Anaheim are $1,500 per year?

I think not in either case, WorldMark dues are tied to account size, not to a specific resort.  But maybe you will find a way to show that they vary per the two examples I used.  I know accountants can do some very creative things with $$ numbers.


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## jbcoug (Jul 31, 2010)

Fred,

Get over this playing dumb act. You understand perfectly well how others calculate the value of their stays, and why it is a valid approach. We also understand where you are coming from, and that is to disassociate our method of valuing our vacations from the credit devaluation that is taking place (which by the way, we know you won't acknowledge). Personally, I don't care how you pencil this out for your own use. What I am offended by is your attempt to convince others that their methodology is wrong when it is a perfectly valid approach to making vacation decisions. How about you do things your way and allow others to do things as they see fit. And please don't continue to insult us with the BS that we don't know how to value our vacations corectly.

John


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## ecwinch (Jul 31, 2010)

cotraveller said:


> If you stop with just the part I quoted, you are correct.  When you add
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sure the are only tied to account size, but the account size determines the maximum vacation experience you can enjoy without renting credits. So it is a logical and dependent relationship to the resort, unit size, and season.

To suggest that they are an invalid relationship does not make sense.


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## ecwinch (Jul 31, 2010)

jbcoug said:


> Fred,
> 
> Get over this playing dumb act. You understand perfectly well how others calculate the value of their stays, and why it is a valid approach. We also understand where you are coming from, and that is to disassociate our method of valuing our vacations from the credit devaluation that is taking place (which by the way, we know you won't acknowledge). Personally, I don't care how you pencil this out for your own use. What I am offended by is your attempt to convince others that their methodology is wrong when it is a perfectly valid approach to making vacation decisions. How about you do things your way and allow others to do things as they see fit. And please don't continue to insult us with the BS that we don't know how to value our vacations corectly.
> 
> John



It is only scary when you realize that the WM Board would love for someone of a similar mindset to be the replacement Director as outlined in the pending court settlement. Especially someone that viewed things like m/f in such an abstract manner.


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## cruisin (Jul 31, 2010)

jbcoug said:


> Fred,
> 
> Get over this playing dumb act. You understand perfectly well how others calculate the value of their stays, and why it is a valid approach. We also understand where you are coming from, and that is to disassociate our method of valuing our vacations from the credit devaluation that is taking place (which by the way, we know you won't acknowledge). Personally, I don't care how you pencil this out for your own use. What I am offended by is your attempt to convince others that their methodology is wrong when it is a perfectly valid approach to making vacation decisions. How about you do things your way and allow others to do things as they see fit. And please don't continue to insult us with the BS that we don't know how to value our vacations corectly.
> 
> John



Aha! I knew there was some kind of  agenda behind this weird thread other than  trying to show that LLW does not know how to figure her costs for vacationing.


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## LLW (Aug 1, 2010)

cotraveller said:


> *If I pick up a two bedroom unit at Anaheim as a 4,000 WorldMark credit Instant Exchange through RCI does that mean that the Maintenance fees for WorldMark Anaheim are $200 (using the oft quoted WorldMark maintenance fee number of 5 cents per credit that has been used in this thread)?  If I get the Anaheim unit in exchange for an expensive Hawaii resort with annual maintenance fees of $1,500  does that mean that the maintenance fees for WorldMark Anaheim are $1,500 per year?*
> 
> I think not in either case, WorldMark dues are tied to account size, not to a specific resort.  But maybe you will find a way to show that they vary per the two examples I used.  I know accountants can do some very creative things with $$ numbers.



So you are agreeing that the cost of a vacation is the cost of the MF of the credits used for the vacation, whatever it calculates out to be, plus any other fees?

And would you agree that a 2BR at Anaheim costs more than a 2BR at Dolphin's Cove?


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## cotraveller (Aug 1, 2010)

LLW said:


> So you are agreeing that the cost of a vacation is the cost of the MF of the credits used for the vacation, whatever it calculates out to be, plus any other fees?
> 
> And would you agree that a 2BR at Anaheim costs more than a 2BR at Dolphin's Cove?



What I have been saying all along is that there is a difference between the cost of ownership and the cost of an individual vacation.  The annual cost of WorldMark ownership is determined by the number of credits you own, and only by that.  That is what determines your annual maintenance dues.  Your dues are not related to which resort you book.

For an individual vacation, a 2 BR at Anaheim booked directly by a WorldMark owner using WorldMark credits requires more WorldMark credits than a 2BR at Dolphin's Cove booked the same way. I believe I have already agreed with that about 5 posts back.

And since some in this thread (not you) have decided to take the route of accusations and offbeat irrrelavent suggestions, I think it is time to move on.

'til we meet again on another WorldMark thread.  It's been fun.


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## LLW (Aug 2, 2010)

cotraveller said:


> What I have been saying all along is that there is a difference between the cost of ownership and the cost of an individual vacation.  The annual cost of WorldMark ownership is determined by the number of credits you own, and only by that.  That is what determines your annual maintenance dues.  Your dues are not related to which resort you book.
> 
> For an individual vacation, a 2 BR at Anaheim booked directly by a WorldMark owner using WorldMark credits requires more WorldMark credits than a 2BR at Dolphin's Cove booked the same way. I believe I have already agreed with that about 5 posts back.
> 
> ...



To be honest, given everything that's happening, can you blame people for jumping in as they did?  

Yes, till we meet again on another Worldmark thread  . But I promise to never call anybody "wrong and misleading."


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## ecwinch (Aug 4, 2010)

Blinders were invented for a reason.


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## theo (Aug 4, 2010)

*An off-topic Steamboat inquiry...*



cotraveller said:


> The Village at SteamBoat, Steamboat Springs, Colorado has three buildings that are WorldMark, two buildings that are Wyndham, and one building that is Vacation Internationale.



Fred (...or anyone else choosing to chime in):

I'd like to go out to Steamboat to ski next winter, using Wyndham Points. 

Do you have any opinion or experience regarding whether there is any particular difference or preference between the two Wyndham buildings? Native input and / or first hand experience would be welcomed and appreciated. Thanks in advance.


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## LLW (Aug 4, 2010)

theo said:


> Fred (...or anyone else choosing to chime in):
> 
> I'd like to go out to Steamboat to ski next winter, using Wyndham Points.
> 
> Do you have any opinion or experience regarding whether there is any particular difference or preference between the two Wyndham buildings? Native input and / or first hand experience would be welcomed and appreciated. Thanks in advance.




I have never been to Steamboat, but according to this post, WM units in the new building are Deluxes, Penthouses, or Presidentials:
http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=170906#170906

So it sounds like units in the new building are nice. According to other info in the thread, Wyndham was splitting the new buildings with WM. 

As a reference, there's also unit info here for the WM side:
http://www.wmowners.com/worldmark/resorts/info/STMSPR


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## cotraveller (Aug 5, 2010)

theo said:


> Fred (...or anyone else choosing to chime in):
> 
> I'd like to go out to Steamboat to ski next winter, using Wyndham Points.
> 
> Do you have any opinion or experience regarding whether there is any particular difference or preference between the two Wyndham buildings? Native input and / or first hand experience would be welcomed and appreciated. Thanks in advance.



Sent you a pm, but in case anyone else is interested in the Steamboat Springs resort, and at the risk of posting some dumb, wrong, and misleading information, and despite the fact that I said I was done with this thread - - 

We have stayed at WorldMark Steamboat Springs twice. Once in 2001 when there were only two buildings, and last year after the expansion to 6 buildings. Each of the 6 buildings is exclusive to one of the three companies that are in the Village at Steamboat complex.  Building 1, one of the old buildings, is Vacation Internationale.  Buildings  4 and 5, both new buildings, are Wyndham. Buildings 2 (old building), 3 and 6 (both new buildings) are WorldMark.

Buildings 2 through 6 have a parking garage underneath the buildings. I'm not positive about building 1 but I do not think it has covered parking.  There is enough space in the new buildings parking garage for 1 car per unit.  If they fill up additional outside parking is available.  There are three swimming pools, two outdoor and one indoor.

The older WorldMark building contains only standard units. The newer WorldMark buildings have only deluxe, penthouse, and presidential units. All 4 of the new buildings appear the same from the outside. We didn't get inside one of the Wyndham units so I can't offer a direct comparison between the Wyndham and WorldMark units.   

Click here for some pictures of the resort, including the resort grounds and the interior of a building 1 standard 1-Br unit and a building 6 deluxe 1-Br unit.


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## theo (Aug 5, 2010)

*Thanks!*

Thanks Fred, for the PM and for sharing that info here as well. Much appreciated.


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## herindoors911 (Aug 7, 2010)

I often buy in one-time use credits for .05...   so LLW's previous math was right from that aspect.   My Mf's and number of credits bring each credit I own down to under .05.   The more credits you own, the more discounted the cost of the stay becomes.

The math is easy for any worldmark owner, even if they are not mathematically inclined.   Doesn't take a lot of brain cells.


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