# Rising Gas Prices



## TravelTime (Mar 3, 2022)

Yesterday, I paid $5.20 per gallon at my “cheap” no-name gas station. We are going to Tahoe on Sunday. I told my husband to fill up the tank before we go because gas is always significantly higher over there. We go to Hawaii next month. Yahoo!

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…. On Monday, the national average was $3.61 a gallon,according to AAA. By comparison, the average U.S. gas price was about $2.65 a year ago.

In California, where prices are now averaging $4.82 a gallon — up 5 cents from last week — the situation is already grim. A year ago, the Golden State’s average pump price was about $1.16 cheaper….

…At one Chevron gas station in Los Angeles county, customers are paying $6.25 per gallon over the weekend, causing them to dig deeper into their pockets at the pump…

… However, a defining characteristic of the current inflationary environment is consumers that complain, but ultimately pay for goods and services that have reset at higher levels….









						Drivers 'blown away' by spiking gas prices as Ukraine-Russia crisis fires up oil — Yahoo Finance
					

Gas prices are marching toward $4 per gallon, and in California are already above that level, as Russia's invasion of Ukraine puts oil prices on a tear.




					apple.news


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## MdRef (Mar 3, 2022)




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## amycurl (Mar 3, 2022)

Back in 2012, I thought I would never pay under $3.50 for gas again in my life. Then, prices dropped, and everyone seemed to forget how expensive gas could be. Basically, when you buy gas, you're dollar-cost averaging....I buy the same amount of gas at $2/gallon as I do at $3.50 (the weekly national average has been hovering between $3.50-$3.60/gallon.) But, then again, I don't own a large SUV. I actually buy less now because I only do my commute about 2-3 times per month, vs. 3-4 times per week.

Also, what we pay for gas is still *far less* than most other countries, and that's reflected in the choices we make (why SUV and large trucks tend to be more popular here than in other countries.)


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## TravelTime (Mar 3, 2022)

amycurl said:


> Back in 2012, I thought I would never pay under $3.50 for gas again in my life. Then, prices dropped, and everyone seemed to forget how expensive gas could be. Basically, when you buy gas, you're dollar-cost averaging....I buy the same amount of gas at $2/gallon as I do at $3.50 (the weekly national average has been hovering between $3.50-$3.60/gallon.) But, then again, I don't own a large SUV. I actually buy less now because I only do my commute about 2-3 times per month, vs. 3-4 times per week.
> 
> Also, what we pay for gas is still *far less* than most other countries, and that's reflected in the choices we make (why SUV and large trucks tend to be more popular here than in other countries.)



Maybe gas prices are also up since fewer white collar people are driving due to work from home. Gas stations also need to make up for losses since 2020.


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## beejaybeeohio (Mar 3, 2022)

Back in the mid-aughts I was paying over $4 per gallon in northeastern Ohio. Paid $3.29 at Costco Tuesday less the 4% cash back on gas purchases awarded yearly for using their credit card. There are other ways to save $$ at the pump e.g., here we have the Giant Eagle GetGo cents off per gallon depending on how many groceries you buy at their supermarkets.


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## Superchief (Mar 3, 2022)

Gas in our area went from 3.19 to 3.39 to 3.59 to 3.79 in the past week. There are definitely things the government can do to encourage US oil production that would gradually lower price, but they are afraid to upset the green energy fanatics. We are still a long way from being able to eliminate oil, so it would be better to produce it here than buy it and ship it from Russia and OPEC countries. I suspect our oil production practices are much cleaner than theirs. Higher US production means higher global supply, thus lower oil prices.

We usually experience about .20 increase this time of year due to the shift to the summer blends. Perhaps they can wave that requirement this year. I've read several studies that show the summer blends are no better to the environment than the regular blends. Each metro region has their own special blend so they can only buy it from a few refineries, resulting in less competition. I would expect that many areas have similar conditions, so I don't understand why they can't reduce the number of special blends so they could be more widely available. Is the air in Cincinnati or Columbus that different than Indianapolis?  Refineries also use this time of year to reduce production for maintenance which also causes gas price increases.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 3, 2022)

Current price of oil is $110 for WTI (US benchmark grade) and $114 for Brent (EU benchmark grade). Gasoline/Petrol will go higher. . .


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## seascapemvy (Mar 3, 2022)

If you think gas prices are high, think about this.  30% of the worlds wheat is grown in Ukraine and Russia and that planting season starts in 6 weeks.  If they dont plant in the right window there will be no crop and people will starve.


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## joestein (Mar 3, 2022)

Gas is around $4/gallon near me in NJ for regular. I think it is around $4.80 for premium.

I am going to take MPG into serious consideration when I replace my car.   My MDXs gets only around 16 MPG.  The older one only takes premium.  I don't think I would buy an EV, but I would consider a Hybrid.

If you think gas went up a lot, I was at Food Emporium yesterday and was looking at some prepared good.  An item that we have bought in the past went from $2.99/each in the summer to $3.99 in the fall and was just increased to $4.99.   That is a 66% increase.


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## emeryjre (Mar 3, 2022)

Do you think of any of the insanely wealthy oligarchs really care about the peasants of the world.  They are descendants of the rulers and czars that watched millions die as they lived their lives of luxury.


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## PigsDad (Mar 3, 2022)

What?  This post has been here for over seven hours and we still haven't gotten our first "I have an EV so I don't buy gas" post!   

Kurt


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## Superchief (Mar 3, 2022)

joestein said:


> Gas is around $4/gallon near me in NJ for regular. I think it is around $4.80 for premium.
> 
> I am going to take MPG into serious consideration when I replace my car.   My MDXs gets only around 16 MPG.  The older one only takes premium.  I don't think I would buy an EV, but I would consider a Hybrid.
> 
> If you think gas went up a lot, I was at Food Emporium yesterday and was looking at some prepared good.  An item that we have bought in the past went from $2.99/each in the summer to $3.99 in the fall and was just increased to $4.99.   That is a 66% increase.


Salmon at Costco was $8.99 a few months ago and was $12.49 today. I noticed many items at Costco increased this week. I think the rising shipping costs are a key reason for the increase. Higher fuel prices impact everything we buy and do, so I don't understand why no serious efforts are being made to increase our production.


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## Superchief (Mar 3, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> What?  This post has been here for over seven hours and we still haven't gotten our first "I have an EV so I don't buy gas" post!
> 
> Kurt


Many were planning to buy a Porsche or VW but they are sitting on the bottom of the sea.


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## rickandcindy23 (Mar 3, 2022)

Superchief said:


> Gas in our area went from 3.19 to 3.39 to 3.59 to 3.79 in the past week. There are definitely things the government can do to encourage US oil production that would gradually lower price, but they are afraid to upset the green energy fanatics. We are still a long way from being able to eliminate oil, so it would be better to produce it here than buy it and ship it from Russia and OPEC countries. I suspect our oil production practices are much cleaner than theirs. Higher US production means higher global supply, thus lower oil prices.
> 
> We usually experience about .20 increase this time of year due to the shift to the summer blends. Perhaps they can wave that requirement this year. I've read several studies that show the summer blends are no better to the environment than the regular blends. Each metro region has their own special blend so they can only buy it from a few refineries, resulting in less competition. I would expect that many areas have similar conditions, so I don't understand why they can't reduce the number of special blends so they could be more widely available. Is the air in Cincinnati or Columbus that different than Indianapolis?  Refineries also use this time of year to reduce production for maintenance which also causes gas price increases.


Agree with all of that.


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## rickandcindy23 (Mar 3, 2022)

emeryjre said:


> Do you think of any of the insanely wealthy oligarchs really care about the peasants of the world.  They are descendants of the rulers and czars that watched millions die as they lived their lives of luxury.


Yes, that is so true.


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## slip (Mar 3, 2022)

Filled up for the first time since we got to Molokai. Only 2 gas stations in here and they both have the same prices.


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## ScoopKona (Mar 3, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> What?  This post has been here for over seven hours and we still haven't gotten our first "I have an EV so I don't buy gas" post!
> 
> Kurt



I'm in the process of buying a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle. So, I'll get gas. H2, specifically. But I won't actually pay anything for it for three years. 

This works out to "free car for me." It's a shame there aren't more H2 stations. 20 seconds on a calculator proves the numbers are outstanding.


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## Mongoose (Mar 3, 2022)

It doesn’t help that we willfully reduced domestic production by 3m barrels a day.


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## geist1223 (Mar 3, 2022)

I can't say anything because it would be so political. But I thought some one said the inflation would only last a short period of time. I think it was said about 8 months ago


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## TravelTime (Mar 3, 2022)

slip said:


> Filled up for the first time since we got to Molokai. Only 2 gas stations in here and they both have the same prices.
> 
> View attachment 48149



Not too bad. I guess we will not have any sticker shock in Hawaii next month. I drove by Chevron today and regular was $5.30 and premium was $5.70. I am bracing for major stick shock in Tahoe on Sunday. It is usually at least $.50 more than here.


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## TravelTime (Mar 3, 2022)

geist1223 said:


> I can't say anything because it would be so political. But I thought some one said the inflation would only last a short period of time. I think it was said about 8 months ago



I think higher prices are likely here to stay. Labor costs are way up so how can prices go down? Everything will adjust upwards and we will just be living at a new higher pricing level. Our local McDonalds is paying $18 to start and we are 3 hours outside the San Francisco Bay Area. I can only imagine what McDonalds pays in the San Francisco Bay Area.


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## slip (Mar 3, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Not too bad. I guess we will not have any sticker shock in Hawaii next month. I drove by Chevron today and regular was $5.30 and premium was $5.70. I am bracing for major stick shock in Tahoe on Sunday. It is usually at least $.50 more than here.



No, from California it won't be too much of a change for you. I think Oahu was $4.79 a gallon when we left.


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## TravelTime (Mar 3, 2022)

slip said:


> No, from California it won't be too much of a change for you. I think Oahu was $4.79 a gallon when we left.



Wow, what a deal! We were worried Hawaii gas would be higher than here.


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## MrockStar (Mar 3, 2022)

slip said:


> Filled up for the first time since we got to Molokai. Only 2 gas stations in here and they both have the same prices.
> 
> View attachment 48149


Hopefully you will drive less now that your retired and on Molokai.


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## slip (Mar 3, 2022)

MrockStar said:


> Hopefully you will drive less now that your retired and on Molokai.



So far we have gone into Kaunakakai town everyday but we had shopping and DMV stuff we had to do. We are 13 mile's from town so 26 miles round trip. So about a gallon round trip for us. It should slow down for us now so we should drive less overall. No stop lights here so we get better gas mileage.  Oahu was all stop and go for my daily work route. 

While we were into today, I noticed rhe other gas station was not the same price. They were about 15 cents higher.


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## MrockStar (Mar 3, 2022)

That's not to bad  a distance from town, a real workout on a bike.


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## geist1223 (Mar 4, 2022)

I paid $3.779 per gallon at Costco in Salem, Oregon yesterday. With the 4% discount that works out to $3.63.


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## pedro47 (Mar 4, 2022)

Jeff, Happy Aloha Friday.
I was informed everything is higher in Hawaii? True or False?
So what is the average gas prices in Oahu?


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## Bucky (Mar 4, 2022)

geist1223 said:


> I can't say anything because it would be so political. But I thought some one said the inflation would only last a short period of time. I think it was said about 8 months ago



and yet you did anyway!


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## Icc5 (Mar 4, 2022)

My wife likes to buy pork tenderloins at Trader Joe's which she was getting for something like $3.59 or so a pound.  Yesterday she went to get a few and they have jumped to something like $7.59 a pound.  In the South Bay (Cupertino,California) and retired we of course watch,make adjustments and if we want something we either pay the price or find an alternative.  It's just getting harder to wrap our minds around how fast everything is adjusting.  Our gas,food,water,electricity,car prices, you name it and it is skyrocketing.
Bart


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## slip (Mar 4, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> Jeff, Happy Aloha Friday.
> I was informed everything is higher in Hawaii? True or False?
> So what is the average gas prices in Oahu?



I think that $4.79 was the average. Costco does have the best prices if you don't mind the long lines and the wait. It's usually about .70 cents less there. So about $4.09 a gallon.


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## pedro47 (Mar 4, 2022)

slip said:


> I think that $4.79 was the average. Costco does have the best prices if you don't mind the long lines and the wait. It's usually about .70 cents less there. So about $4.09 a gallon.


Thanks


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## MrockStar (Mar 4, 2022)

I think i would consider an E-bike if i lived on Molokai depending on the traffic and width of the roads there.


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## CalGalTraveler (Mar 4, 2022)

slip said:


> No, from California it won't be too much of a change for you. I think Oahu was $4.79 a gallon when we left.



It was surprising to see gas about .50c cheaper in Hawaii than in California when we visited in Feb. California also has a special formulation to reduce smog in LA so the price is always higher. FWIW When I visited LA over the past few years, it has seemed to have made a difference in LA smog. You can see the mountains on more days than I remember in the past.


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## CalGalTraveler (Mar 4, 2022)

ScoopLV said:


> I'm in the process of buying a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle. So, I'll get gas. H2, specifically. But I won't actually pay anything for it for three years.
> 
> This works out to "free car for me." It's a shame there aren't more H2 stations. 20 seconds on a calculator proves the numbers are outstanding.



Sounds interesting. Can you share more details? What brand, Financials, incentive etc. We are needing a new car in the next 3 years so are evaluating options.


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## TravelTime (Mar 4, 2022)

slip said:


> I think that $4.79 was the average. Costco does have the best prices if you don't mind the long lines and the wait. It's usually about .70 cents less there. So about $4.09 a gallon.



The nearest Costco to us is 25 miles away so 50 miles round trip. Plus the long wait makes it unattractive to us. If it were nearby, I might consider it. Costco was going to open a store in our town but the locals fought it and won. The old timers are against big box stores. However, we have a Home Depot so go figure.


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## slip (Mar 4, 2022)

MrockStar said:


> I think i would consider an E-bike if i lived on Molokai depending on the traffic and width of the roads there.



Roads would probably be good for that ride here on an E-bike. I'm not much of a rider so I won't go that option. I'll start out walking for some excersize.


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## slip (Mar 4, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> The nearest Costco to us is 25 miles away so 50 miles round trip. Plus the long wait makes it unattractive to us. If it were nearby, I might consider it. Costco was going to open a store in our town but the locals fought it and won. The old timers are against big box stores. However, we have a Home Depot so go figure.



It was close when I lived on Oahu but the crowds turned me off. Plus I did put on a lot of miles there so the savings weren't large enough for me to make it worth while. I only filled up every 2 to 3 weeks and I usually filled up when on a half a tank.


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## Passepartout (Mar 4, 2022)

We are visiting Southern Cal. Gas is hovering about $5 a gallon. One TV station showed a Shell station at $5.79 for regular. I won't be topping off at that one. There is an Arco near me at $4.50ish. I paid $3.18 at home last week.

It will be back to using the ebike for errands pretty soon!


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## pedro47 (Mar 4, 2022)

Passepartout said:


> We are visiting Southern Cal. Gas is hovering about $5 a gallon. One TV station showed a Shell station at $5.79 for regular. I won't be topping off at that one. There is an Arco near me at $4.50ish. I paid $3.18 at home last week.
> 
> It will be back to using the ebike for errands pretty soon!


Two years ago, it was the Covid pandemic, next the shortage of labor / workers wanted to work for low pay, the increase in the federal minimum wage, and now there is inflation, a war in Ukraine plus the raising gasoline prices around the world.


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## joestein (Mar 4, 2022)

Icc5 said:


> My wife likes to buy pork tenderloins at Trader Joe's which she was getting for something like $3.59 or so a pound.  Yesterday she went to get a few and they have jumped to something like $7.59 a pound.  In the South Bay (Cupertino,California) and retired we of course watch,make adjustments and if we want something we either pay the price or find an alternative.  It's just getting harder to wrap our minds around how fast everything is adjusting.  Our gas,food,water,electricity,car prices, you name it and it is skyrocketing.
> Bart



Yet they say we only have inflation of 7%.   I think they exclude food and energy.


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## BJRSanDiego (Mar 4, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> We are going to Tahoe on Sunday.
> 
> ————————————-
> 
> ...


If you are taking highway 50 past Echo Lake or Echo Lake Summit (south of lake Tahoe), check with Caltrans first.  They had a "cabin sized" boulder roll down and block the road.  So the road is closed until they blast the thing into pieces that can be moved.  There is currently no estimate of when that will be.


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## Tia (Mar 4, 2022)

McD's medium combo meal Filet 0 Fish was $7.89 where I'm at this week. I am thinking they changed the fish sandwich after all these years. Wasn't what it used to be at all sadly. Taste wise not the same, looked like ? minced fish possibly , 1/2 the cheese they used to have and a toasted bun. Did not like it. Will try again to see if it was a change or just a one time bad sandwich



TravelTime said:


> I think higher prices are likely here to stay. Labor costs are way up so how can prices go down? Everything will adjust upwards and we will just be living at a new higher pricing level. Our local McDonalds is paying $18 to start and we are 3 hours outside the San Francisco Bay Area. I can only imagine what McDonalds pays in the San Francisco Bay Area.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 4, 2022)

Tia said:


> McD's medium combo meal Filet 0 Fish was $7.89 where I'm at this week. I am thinking they changed the fish sandwich after all these years. Wasn't what it used to be at all sadly. Taste wise not the same, looked like ? minced fish possibly , 1/2 the cheese they used to have and a toasted bun. Did not like it. Will try again to see if it was a change or just a one time bad sandwich


I am pretty sure the Filet-O-Fish has always come with half a slice of cheese.


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## emeryjre (Mar 4, 2022)

I understand gas prices are moving up an average of 10 cents a gallon per day in Bismarck, ND.  There is a refinery just across the river in Mandan, ND.

So what you saw last week may be different than what you see today or Monday.  The situation with Russia is certainly contributing to the price rise.


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## swditz (Mar 4, 2022)

Passepartout said:


> We are visiting Southern Cal. Gas is hovering about $5 a gallon. One TV station showed a Shell station at $5.79 for regular. I won't be topping off at that one. There is an Arco near me at $4.50ish. I paid $3.18 at home last week.
> 
> It will be back to using the ebike for errands pretty soon!


May want to get it when you see it. A local station here went up an additional 23 cents in less than 6 hours. Expecting $4 by tomorrow.


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## Passepartout (Mar 4, 2022)

swditz said:


> May want to get it when you see it. A local station here went up an additional 23 cents in less than 6 hours. Expecting $4 by tomorrow.


Agreed. The referenced Arco was mobbed by the time we got there! It will be good to get back home to the plug-in car.


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## bogey21 (Mar 4, 2022)

My Son fracks wells in the Permian here in Texas.   About a year or so ago he got laid off.  3 or 4 months ago he got called back at about 3/4 his previous pay.  He told me yesterday that his pay has just been increased to a level higher than when he got laid off.  What happens is when the oil companies cut back on drilling the service companies they hire to do the drilling have to cut back on what they charge just to stay in business.  When the oil companies gear up and start drilling more, the service companies have more business than they can handle and jack up their prices.  My Son is now the beneficiary of $110 WTI...

George


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## Tia (Mar 4, 2022)

I said 1/2 the cheese it used to have , so now it's like 1/4 of a slice it looked like to me



dioxide45 said:


> I am pretty sure the Filet-O-Fish has always come with half a slice of cheese.


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## Lydlady (Mar 4, 2022)

Tia said:


> I said 1/2 the cheese it used to have , so now it's like 1/4 of a slice it looked like to me



I just finished one of these sandwiches about ten minutes ago. Now I'm embarrassed to say I was so hungry I didn't pay attention but I thought it was half a slice of cheese.


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## joestein (Mar 4, 2022)

All these Filet O Fishes.... Is this a lent thing?


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## clifffaith (Mar 4, 2022)

We have a 90 minute round trip each day for Cliff’s radiation treatments so we fill up twice a week right now. Monday gas in our San Juan Capistrano adjacent area was $4.98. We filled up today at $5.08.


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## TravelTime (Mar 4, 2022)

BJRSanDiego said:


> If you are taking highway 50 past Echo Lake or Echo Lake Summit (south of lake Tahoe), check with Caltrans first.  They had a "cabin sized" boulder roll down and block the road.  So the road is closed until they blast the thing into pieces that can be moved.  There is currently no estimate of when that will be.



Thanks for the heads up. Fortunately, we are on the 80 side and ski at Palisades. Hopefully, nothing will cause a problem on this side.


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## mentalbreak (Mar 4, 2022)

Tia said:


> McD's medium combo meal Filet 0 Fish was $7.89 where I'm at this week. I am thinking they changed the fish sandwich after all these years. Wasn't what it used to be at all sadly. Taste wise not the same, looked like ? minced fish possibly , 1/2 the cheese they used to have and a toasted bun. Did not like it. Will try again to see if it was a change or just a one time bad sandwich



I’m not sure if this happens nationwide or not, but in MSP, McDs started using a different filet o fish when the sandwiches went on sale during lent. Smaller filet and definitely lower quality. My mom noticed and that was the end of our special once/year McDonalds Friday fish dinner during Lent.  I guess that makes them a leader - they have been pulling the down-sizing market move since the mid-80s.

On another tangent but related fish note, if you ever have the chance to catch an “On the Hook” food truck in your area - do it. Best fish-fry cod I have ever had.


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## TravelTime (Mar 4, 2022)

Just drove by a gas station and I saw $5.95 per gallon in Auburn, CA. It was for premium and paying with credit card so it applies to me. I am dreading what I will see on Tahoe this weekend.


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## The Colorado Kid (Mar 4, 2022)

Gonna need a new space on the pumps for the $10 digit


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## TravelTime (Mar 4, 2022)

joestein said:


> Yet they say we only have inflation of 7%.   I think they exclude food and energy.



The 7% is an average. It is probably higher but the government is reporting 7%. It also varies a lot regionally.


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## TravelTime (Mar 4, 2022)

The Colorado Kid said:


> Gonna need a new space on the pumps for the $10 digit
> View attachment 48245



Wow, where is this? Even higher than the highest I have yet seen in CA but not by all that much.


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## easyrider (Mar 4, 2022)

Finally bought my first tank of gas this year. It was close to $90. Gas was about $3.90 today. I have a 25 gallon tank and @ $6.00 it would be $150 a tank. I get 12 mpg so about 300 miles a tank. We are close to $100 a tank which is about 33 cents a mile. @ $6 a gallon its $150 a tank or about 50 cents a mile. Oh well. That is what I read to expect by summer. I thought about a hybrid car but I like my suv's and can buy alot of gas for the price of a hybrid car.

Bill


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## easyrider (Mar 4, 2022)

joestein said:


> All these Filet O Fishes.... Is this a lent thing?



Yes. I wasn't even thinking about Lent but its Friday and I see cod on the kitchen counter top. 

Bill


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## moonstone (Mar 4, 2022)

I haven't seen any Canadians posting on this thread so I'll jump in.  Our gas prices are also going up like crazy and we were already paying more then the highest US prices.  Today in Barrie ON, which is about 60 miles as the crow flies north of Toronto, the cost was Cndn$1.749 per liter.  By using this conversion table (Online Calculator Converting the cost Cents Per Litre to dollars per gallon of gasoline in Canada and USA in US Gallons (mississauga4sale.com) to convert liters to US gallons and the Canadian dollar value to US dollars, that price comes out to about US$6.66 per US gallon!!  More than any state's prices I can see on GasBuddy  dot com.  We have heard reports that we will be paying Cndn$2.00/liter by summer - approaching what we were paying last fall in the Netherlands. 


~Diane


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## Passepartout (Mar 4, 2022)

moonstone said:


> I haven't seen any Canadians posting on this thread so I'll jump in.  Our gas prices are also going up like crazy and we were already paying more then the highest US prices.


Yup. We like to whine, but in the overall scheme of things, US fuel prices are the envy of the world. Nowhere in the world is energy as cheap as in the USA. We!l, maybe Mexico, but certainly not in Europe.


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## jmhpsu93 (Mar 4, 2022)

The first world problems are strong in this discussion.  SMH

I forgot that the hidden amendment in the Bill of Rights guaranteed cheap gasoline to all Americans.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 4, 2022)

Passepartout said:


> Yup. We like to whine, but in the overall scheme of things, US fuel prices are the envy of the world. Nowhere in the world is energy as cheap as in the USA. We!l, maybe Mexico, but certainly not in Europe.


Well, there are a lot of other places that are far cheaper than the USA and even Mexico. The middle east is probably paying under $1US a gallon and much of South America is the same. You can get gas real cheap in Venezuela.


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## kanerf (Mar 4, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> What?  This post has been here for over seven hours and we still haven't gotten our first "I have an EV so I don't buy gas" post!
> 
> Kurt


Yup, I do.  Well Plug-In Hybrid, so I don't buy too much gas.


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## Ken555 (Mar 4, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Well, there are a lot of other places that are far cheaper than the USA and even Mexico. The middle east is probably paying under $1US a gallon and much of South America is the same. You can get gas real cheap in Venezuela.



Great comparisons! Everyone I know escaped from Venezuela and it wasn’t because they wanted to pay higher fuel costs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Passepartout (Mar 4, 2022)

kanerf said:


> Yup, I do.  Well Plug-In Hybrid, so I don't buy too much gas.


Me too. We bought 10 gallons of gas in February. For two vehicles including my Tundra with a drinking problem.


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## joestein (Mar 4, 2022)

easyrider said:


> Yes. I wasn't even thinking about Lent but its Friday and I see cod on the kitchen counter top.
> 
> Bill



Every Friday we try a new pizza place by our new house.  One town over, Matawan has an excess of great pizza.   Pizza in our town kinda sucks.  It is around a 15 min drive to Matawan, so not so bad.

We are not doing this for Lent - I am jewish and my wife is catholic, but neither of us are religious.

Sesame seed crust seems to be a big thing in Matawan.  We went to Esposito's - the home of the sesame seed pizza.   They claim to won the best non-traditional pizza at the international pizza expo in Las Vegas in 2015.     

We got tomatoes, garlic, fresh mozz and homemade pesto with 1/2 sausage.   It was really outstanding - though a bit oily.    I post my reviews to the NJ Pizza page in Facebook.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 4, 2022)

joestein said:


> We are not doing this for Lent - I am jewish and my wife is catholic, but neither of us are religious.


Not doing it for Lent? I certainly hope not. Friday is a traditional fasting day during Lent and many Christians abstain from red meat or meat from warm blooded animals. Usually something is given up during lent. It is quite obvious this isn't being done for Lent!


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## youppi (Mar 4, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Well, there are a lot of other places that are far cheaper than the USA and even Mexico. The middle east is probably paying under $1US a gallon and much of South America is the same. You can get gas real cheap in Venezuela.


Yes there is around 50 countries where the gas is cheaper than USA as per https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/
But if you check the gas price vs the income, there is only 3 countries where the gas is cheaper for there population than for US population https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/articles/85/

Check the data of USA and Canada in both URL. The gas is 1.34x more expensive in Canada ($1.40 vs $1.044 per litre) but it's 2x (1.6% vs 0.8%) more expensive for Canadian because American income is much higher than Canadian income. 

Check the data of USA and Mexico in both URL. The gas is 1.07x more expensive in Mexico ($1.118 vs $1.044 per litre) but it's 8x (6.4% vs 0.8%) more expensive for Mexican because American income is much higher than Mexican income.

Note: The data in the URL are from February 28, 2022 but the gas price increased everywhere during the last week and not only in USA. So, the ratio should be similar today too.


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## Tia (Mar 4, 2022)

Had not thought about Lent being the cause, terrible if so



mentalbreak said:


> I’m not sure if this happens nationwide or not, but in MSP, McDs started using a different filet o fish when the sandwiches went on sale during lent. Smaller filet and definitely lower quality. My mom noticed and that was the end of our special once/year McDonalds Friday fish dinner during Lent.  I guess that makes them a leader - they have been pulling the down-sizing market move since the mid-80s.
> 
> On another tangent but related fish note, if you ever have the chance to catch an “On the Hook” food truck in your area - do it. Best fish-fry cod I have ever had.


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## easyrider (Mar 5, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Not doing it for Lent? I certainly hope not. Friday is a traditional fasting day during Lent and many Christians abstain from red meat or meat from warm blooded animals. Usually something is given up during lent. It is quite obvious this isn't being done for Lent!



There was a time I gave up things for Lent. One Lent I was really thinking about it and I decided to give up the give up. To most it would seem I gave up nothing but the reality is I did give more by giving up nothing in particular. We had cod tonight and I wondered why but then I wondered why not. It's a good tradition that reminds me of good things.

Bill


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## geist1223 (Mar 5, 2022)

moonstone said:


> I haven't seen any Canadians posting on this thread so I'll jump in.  Our gas prices are also going up like crazy and we were already paying more then the highest US prices.  Today in Barrie ON, which is about 60 miles as the crow flies north of Toronto, the cost was Cndn$1.749 per liter.  By using this conversion table (Online Calculator Converting the cost Cents Per Litre to dollars per gallon of gasoline in Canada and USA in US Gallons (mississauga4sale.com) to convert liters to US gallons and the Canadian dollar value to US dollars, that price comes out to about US$6.66 per US gallon!!  More than any state's prices I can see on GasBuddy  dot com.  We have heard reports that we will be paying Cndn$2.00/liter by summer - approaching what we were paying last fall in the Netherlands.
> 
> 
> ~Diane



When we travel to Vancouver BC we always stop at the last Costco in Washington to buy food and top off the vehicle. We always notice lots of Canadian Plated Vehicles getting gas. We talked to a few of the Canadian Drivers and they come down about once a week to fill up their tanks.


----------



## pedro47 (Mar 5, 2022)

Gas prices in the Tidewater Va area are as low $2.99 per gal in Hampton, Va to $3.40 per gal in Virginia Beach, Va.


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## swditz (Mar 5, 2022)

I am curious to see if folks start a run on EV cars. I remember when people were selling off their SUVs  because of high gas prices. We needed a vehicle for our six kids and picked up an awesome deal on a 3 year old suburban!
Is there a large inventory? If not I'm sure prices will skyrocket. We were thinking of changing over. if the right vehicle/deal comes along we probably would but I doubt one will be easy to find now.


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## am1 (Mar 5, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> What?  This post has been here for over seven hours and we still haven't gotten our first "I have an EV so I don't buy gas" post!
> 
> Kurt


Does not matter as everything else goes up.


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## beejaybeeohio (Mar 5, 2022)

Fish Tales
McDonald's FoF sandwiches are something I might order even outside of Lenten Fridays, but more than double the price from a few years ago when they were 2 for $4 has reduced my craving for them.
Arby's fish sandwiches are a great deal and much more fishy than Mickey D's! priced at 2 for $6 everyday.


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## Talent312 (Mar 5, 2022)

Luckily, I bought a full-tank b4 the invasion and still have 3/4 full.
But in 2 weeks, I drive about 5 hours (330 miles) to Ft. Lauderdale.
Still, as others say, gas prices in the U.S. are still relatively cheap.

BTW, we saw $3.79 at Sam's Club in N. Florida today.
I may want to top-off at that price.
.
.


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## 1Kflyerguy (Mar 5, 2022)

We are at MVC Newport Coast Villas this weekend.  I just paid $5.49 for regular yesterday in Newport Beach.  I have heard local news reports of prices over $7 a gallon in LA this weekend.


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## Ken555 (Mar 5, 2022)

1Kflyerguy said:


> We are at MVC Newport Coast Villas this weekend. I just paid $5.49 for regular yesterday in Newport Beach. I have heard local news reports of prices over $7 a gallon in LA this weekend.



There are always certain LA locations that are ~$1-2 higher than the vast majority, and it’s likely these are the ones you’re hearing about. I may go out today to buy gas - for comparison, as of today (per the website) Costco gas (at one location in LA) is $4.85.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## TravelTime (Mar 5, 2022)

…On Saturday, the average price of a gallon of self-serve regular in Los Angeles County rose 9.5 cents to $5.247…









						$7 Gas in SoCal? Lines Are Long at Arcadia Sam's Club for ‘Bargain' $4.29
					

Gas prices spiked more than 13 cents in one day overnight — the largest one day hike since 2015. Pumps near the Beverly Center offer $6.65 for regular and more than $7 for premium.




					www.nbclosangeles.com


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## am1 (Mar 5, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I am pretty sure the Filet-O-Fish has always come with half a slice of cheese.


And always a bad sandwich.


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## MrockStar (Mar 5, 2022)

4:19 $ today in Detroit. Costco was slammed today.


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## joestein (Mar 5, 2022)

Just saw $4.40 this afternoon at Exxon in Old Bridge, NJ.

Saw $3.79 10 mins earlier at Lukoil in Old Bridge.   I thought they were going to be sanctioned - they are a Russian owned business.


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## Talent312 (Mar 5, 2022)

joestein said:


> Saw $3.79 10 mins earlier at Lukoil in Old Bridge.  I thought they were going to be sanctioned - they are a Russian owned business.



They came out in opposition to the war... probly had to...
They have a lot of locally-owned franchises in the U.S.
Some localities are talking about shutting 'em down, anyway.
.


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## vikingsholm (Mar 5, 2022)

This is what I've read on message boards from people in the industry plus those who invest in oil or gas:

Over a year ago, these people were saying that the current rise in prices (prior to the Ukraine invasion) was expected to be up to around $100 per barrel of crude by now. Part of that was due to expected demand increase coming out of the pandemic, and part because some of the domestic production being shut down during the pandemic crude price plunge would not be started up due to bankruptcies, or just kept closed down to limit supply and jack up the price. Then there's the ramp up to summer blends and summer demand.

However, the Ukraine invasion has prevented what may have been a price pullback around the $100 level, and the uncertainty and less supply coming out of Russia has popped it to $115 already. On top of this, Saudi Arabia has also withheld supply to get prices higher while this demand returned, and sounds unlikely to want to increase their output anytime soon.

The people I follow are now saying they expect prices to get to $185-200 per barrel within this year, if international conditions stay as they are. Any further boycott of Russia or worse war situations could aggravate that more.

A partial countervaling measure may be a new Iranian nuke deal in the works, after which sanctions blocking their oil supply output now would be eased. This could happen over the next month.

Sounds like we need to be prepared for even higher prices, regardless.

Costco gas always seems cheaper, and in the SF Bay Area and Tahoe, if you shop for groceries at Safeway or Raleys you can get rebates of from 10c to 50c per gallon at their gas stations based on your amount of grocery spending.

A little less driving by all might be in order here, and I hope this spurs people away from those monster pickups and back to smaller cars, hybrids, and EVs. It is another reason to extend work from home more permanently too - that saves gas from less commuting, especially in large urban areas. This price increase is all going to look so petty in 10-20 years when people find out how real the effects of climate change are going to be, and how unexpectedly fast it's coming, IMO.


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## MrockStar (Mar 5, 2022)

Guess is time to break out my winter ride 2003 Honda civic hybrid that gets close to 50mpg with 255, 000 miles on the clock and running good still.


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## Superchief (Mar 6, 2022)

I can't believe our leaders would prefer to buy oil from Iran rather than remove some barriers to domestic production. There are several lease applications for production on federal lands that haven't been approved due to clean energy policies. A separate lease is required for production, following an initial lease for exploration. These delayed leases are in areas where the oil has already been found. The longer the delay for increasing domestic production, the longer we will have to pay high gas (and every other product) prices while we continue to fund the economies of countries who hate us.


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## joestein (Mar 6, 2022)

I don't care what the price for gas is - we can't give up pressure on Iran.  They are an evil country that will use the proceeds to sow war and chaos in the middle east.   They fund several terrorist groups.


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## ScoopKona (Mar 6, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Sounds interesting. Can you share more details? What brand, Financials, incentive etc. We are needing a new car in the next 3 years so are evaluating options.



If you don't live within driving distance of one of the nine H2 filling stations, there is no reason to even look into this.

Unless a network of H2 stations is built, these only work as commuters or "drive about town" cars. Toyota makes the only model for sale in the US right now.


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## CalGalTraveler (Mar 6, 2022)

ScoopLV said:


> If you don't live within driving distance of one of the nine H2 filling stations, there is no reason to even look into this.
> 
> Unless a network of H2 stations is built, these only work as commuters or "drive about town" cars. Toyota makes the only model for sale in the US right now.


Thanks. I was always under the impression that H2 is 10 years out. We live in northern California so when I looked online and I see more than 9 stations. I also see stations going to places where we drive. Worth considering.

You said the economics work. Can you provide an example of what you learned? And possibly some good resources you found?


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## ScoopKona (Mar 6, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks. I was always under the impression that H2 is 10 years out. We live in northern California so when I looked online and I see more than 9 stations. I also see stations going to places where we drive. Worth considering.
> 
> You said the economics work. Can you provide an example of what you learned? And possibly some good resources you found?



I'm buying a certified pre-owned (lease turn in) for around $20K. It comes with a three-year gas card worth $15K. The H2 station is 30 miles from me, but basically across the street from Costco -- so I'll make that trip once per month anyway.

My calculus is that I don't want to buy any more internal combustion engines; and that mining for lithium isn't doing the planet any favors, either. So H2 is the smartest way to get from point A to point B. Our bus system runs on H2, as well.


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## MrockStar (Mar 6, 2022)

I like the idea, Thanks ScoopLV.


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## pedro47 (Mar 6, 2022)

How much oil does the major oil refinery companies hold in reserves in those large oil tankers (ships and land oil tankers)?


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## emeryjre (Mar 6, 2022)

Tried the Toyota Mirai on a long term lease.  Gave it back after 30 days.  No hydrogen available.  They were not happy, but neither was I.  The vehicle itself was very nice and using the first tank of fuel was lot of fun.  This was 4 years ago.

California had/has been promising Hydrogen at the new stations.  Not sure what the supply situation is currently. 

The research to produce green hydrogen is very intense. Hopefully one the weekly lab announcements will really produce low cost, low carbon hydrogen.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 6, 2022)

As of this writing (3/6/22 - 6:46 PM CST) West Texas Intermediate future are above $125 a barrel, up almost $10 since Friday close.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 6, 2022)

Well, gas jumped today here in northeast Florida to four bucks! Well technically $3.999. Anyway, it has been a long time since I saw $4 gas at the pumps. I have longed realised that it is a big scam. It usually takes six weeks for increases in oil prices to impact prices at the pumps. This whole thing over the war on Ukraine certainly shouldn't be impacting trust costs at the pump. From what I can tell, demand isn't any higher today than it was last week. The west is still importing Russian oil, so it isn't like supply is down. The whole thing is plastered all over the news to make us willing to accept the increases in price while it is all just a big scam to empty our pockets.

I even saw something where the administration may be considering going to Venezuela to seek oil instead of importing from Russia. Really? The two are allies and Russia could just funnel their oil through them.


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## emeryjre (Mar 6, 2022)

The US has plenty of Natural Gas Production, but Natural Gas has increased in price from around 3.50 in late December to around 5.00 today.  Around 40% increase.  Wait until you start getting your next heating bills for the next shoe to drop.

In California the pain has been especially hard for fixed income seniors.


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## easyrider (Mar 6, 2022)

Many people voted for the end of fossil fuel in 2020 and won. It was actually guaranteed. Maybe the people didn't know that gas is a fossil fuel, lol. This isn't a political jab at anything so please don't go off. This is only my interesting observation as we move away from gas for now. 

Bill


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## jabberwocky (Mar 6, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I even saw something where the administration may be considering going to Venezuela to seek oil instead of importing from Russia. Really? The two are allies and Russia could just funnel their oil through them.


This would probably be difficult since the Venezuelan crude has very different characteristics and refining requirements than the Russian variety.  

Russian oil usually has an API > 30 (Urals is the dominant type) with a sulfur content of about 1.5%.  Venezuelan crude is quite a bit heavier with an API of around 15-16 (Merey grades - by far the largest proportion of Venezuelan production) and has a sulfur content of around 2.5%.  It would be tough to substitute one type for another.  

Refineries are designed to process certain grades of oil - which is why it can be difficult to just "import" more oil if you don't have the right refining capacity.  Refineries along the gulf coast were set up to process the Venezuelan product and had to adjust when the sanctions on VE kicked in. 

Of course, there is a friendly country to the north of the US that has plenty of heavy oil that is closer to the Venezuelan grades (Alberta oil sands crude has an API of around 20 so it's a good fit for gulf coast refiners).  Had Keystone XL not been delayed and then canceled, it would be pumping an extra 830,000 bpd now.  This would more than offset any imports from Russia.


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## jabberwocky (Mar 7, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> How much oil does the major oil refinery companies hold in reserves in those large oil tankers (ships and land oil tankers)?


It's tough to say and I don't think any disclose this precise amount (there is also the constant movement of product through the system - think pipelines etc.)  As a rough way to look at it, you can do an estimate from the financial statements how many days it would take a company to sell all of their inventory (inventory turnover ratio).  Based on this, Exxon has about 80 days of inventory available, Chevron has around 85 days, Conoco 88.  This includes all products that they sell, so it's not just crude oil. 

Interesting side-note - some analysts will actually procure satellite images of refinery storage facilities.  As the oil tanks get full, the "ceiling" in the units goes up, so you can roughly tell how much oil is in each tank based on an overhead view. Back in 2020 when oil prices crashed you could see that the world was literally getting to the point where there was no place to store any more oil in the land-based storage systems.


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## Ken555 (Mar 7, 2022)

Just a reminder that we have had high gas prices in the past. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Roger830 (Mar 7, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Well, gas jumped today here in northeast Florida to four bucks! Well technically $3.999. Anyway, it has been a long time since I saw $4 gas at the pumps. I have longed realised that it is a big scam. *It usually takes six weeks for increases in oil prices to impact prices at the pumps. This whole thing over the war on Ukraine certainly shouldn't be impacting trust costs at the pump*. From what I can tell, demand isn't any higher today than it was last week. The west is still importing Russian oil, so it isn't like supply is down. The whole thing is plastered all over the news to make us willing to accept the increases in price while it is all just a big scam to empty our pockets.



The increase at the pump is needed now so that the gas stations have enough funds to pay for the higher priced shipment in the future. Not a scam, just business.


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## seascapemvy (Mar 7, 2022)

Roger830 said:


> The increase at the pump is needed now so that the gas stations have enough funds to pay for the higher priced shipment in the future. Not a scam, just business.


It will keep going up as long as the war lasts.  We lost any oppotunity to keep prices down when we gave up our being the marginal producer.  The oil companies decided aftet the electrion to not increase production and now it would take another 18 months to increase supply.  It would take even longer to make up for Europes Russian use.  Expect $5.00 a gallon by summer.  Plus, expect to pay a fortune for electricity this summer and if it is extremely hot people to die because they are shut off and have no AC.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

Roger830 said:


> The increase at the pump is needed now so that the gas stations have enough funds to pay for the higher priced shipment in the future. Not a scam, just business.


Ahh, so that is the excuse?


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## emeryjre (Mar 7, 2022)

A different view of the rise in oil prices.

Insana: Energy prices are soaring, but the Keystone Pipeline wouldn’t have helped ease the pressure (msn.com)


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## burg1121 (Mar 7, 2022)

Turn on our energy.


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## gln60 (Mar 7, 2022)

geist1223 said:


> I can't say anything because it would be so political. But I thought some one said the inflation would only last a short period of time. I think it was said about 8 months ago


Watch what people DO…..NOT what they SAY


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## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

It amazes me that some people (not necessarily here) are giddy about high gas prices when high gas prices mostly impact the poor and middle class which those same people purport to support the most. Fixed income earners are hurt the most by increasing energy costs and inflation. Fuel prices are getting into recession causing territory.


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## gln60 (Mar 7, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> It amazes me that some people (not necessarily here) are giddy about high gas prices when high gas prices mostly impact the poor and middle class which those same people purport to support the most. Fixed income earners are hurt the most by increasing energy costs and inflation. Fuel prices are getting into recession causing territory.


100% correct


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## MrockStar (Mar 7, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Just a reminder that we have had high gas prices in the past.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


And that was the goal in the recent past, to encourage turning to greener renewable energy sources, smaller more fuel-efficient vehicles and population shifts to denser core cities' ect.


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## Superchief (Mar 7, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> This would probably be difficult since the Venezuelan crude has very different characteristics and refining requirements than the Russian variety.
> 
> Russian oil usually has an API > 30 (Urals is the dominant type) with a sulfur content of about 1.5%.  Venezuelan crude is quite a bit heavier with an API of around 15-16 (Merey grades - by far the largest proportion of Venezuelan production) and has a sulfur content of around 2.5%.  It would be tough to substitute one type for another.
> 
> ...


I've been thinking about the reasons that our leadership has chosen not to modify their US oil production policies as well as allowing the completion of the pipeline. These actions would gradually at least partially alleviate supply problems, and would assure that we have oil access if global tensions expand. These are my thoughts regarding potential reasons for doing nothing up until now.

They are afraid that people will wonder why they didn't do something sooner to prevent this dramatic increase to begin with. Gas prices were going up dramatically even before the Ukraine invasion.
They are afraid of the green energy advocates, and want gas to go up substantially so people will be forced to stop driving fossil fuel vehicles. This ignores the fact the world will be relying on fossil fuels for another 50 years as new technologies become viable and affordable.
This action will be delayed until later to cause a decline in gas prices just prior to the November elections.
Meanwhile, people are experiencing significant financial issues caused by the high energy prices and inflation is exacerbated by increasing shipping costs. We are relying more on oil from our enemies and countries who condone the Russian invasion of Ukraine.  Although it will take time to ramp up production in the US, a supportive policy will have positive impact on the futures and gradually decrease oil prices. Immediate help can also be provided by eliminating the the summer blend requirements that slow down refinery production and add at least .20 per gallon cost.


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## MrockStar (Mar 7, 2022)

Its nothing new really, those who control energy control the means to produce and project power.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

emeryjre said:


> A different view of the rise in oil prices.
> 
> Insana: Energy prices are soaring, but the Keystone Pipeline wouldn’t have helped ease the pressure (msn.com)


Wasn't approval for the pipeline initially rejected in 2012? The pipeline would have probably been done long before the last permit was nixed.


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## joestein (Mar 7, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Just a reminder that we have had high gas prices in the past.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I don't think this high.


----------



## joestein (Mar 7, 2022)

Superchief said:


> I've been thinking about the reasons that our leadership has chosen not to modify their US oil production policies as well as allowing the completion of the pipeline. These actions would gradually at least partially alleviate supply problems, and would assure that we have oil access if global tensions expand. These are my thoughts regarding potential reasons for doing nothing up until now.
> 
> They are afraid that people will wonder why they didn't do something sooner to prevent this dramatic increase to begin with. Gas prices were going up dramatically even before the Ukraine invasion.
> They are afraid of the green energy advocates, and want gas to go up substantially so people will be forced to stop driving fossil fuel vehicles. This ignores the fact the world will be relying on fossil fuels for another 50 years as new technologies become viable and affordable.
> ...




Sadly, all political reasons.  It would be nice to have our country governed by those who main goal is to govern wisely.

This is not a hit on just Democrats as Republicans are just as guilty.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

joestein said:


> I don't think this high.


I recall $4+ a gallon back in and around 2008 when we lived in Ohio.


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## emeryjre (Mar 7, 2022)

There are several phases of the Keystone Pipeline operational.  The last phase would have imported about 500,000 BPD of bitumen crude from Canada.  The additional oil that would have been transported was light grade crude from the Baken.  This would have been about 380,000 BPD.  The Baken oil is currently being pumped out of the ground and is being moved to refineries in different ways.

It is the last phase that was cancelled.


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## Superchief (Mar 7, 2022)

emeryjre said:


> There are several phases of the Keystone Pipeline operational.  The last phase would have imported about 500,000 BPD of bitumen crude from Canada.  The additional oil that would have been transported was light grade crude from the Baken.  This would have been about 380,000 BPD.  The Baken oil is currently being pumped out of the ground and is being moved to refineries in different ways.
> 
> It is the last phase that was cancelled.


It's ironic that the methods being used to transport this oil (trains, trucks, barges) all cost more, are less safe, take more time, and have greater impact on the environment. Millions of dollars had already been spent.  This decision sure made a lot of sense


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Mar 7, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> The 7% is an average. It is probably higher but the government is reporting 7%. It also varies a lot regionally.



Rural price changes are largely not included in the CPI these days.  How the CPI is calculated has become more and more complex.  Food and energy is still included, but there are rules that can impact how the CPI is calculated.  The CPI no longer includes direct housing increases in cost - but rather an average monthly rental equivalent for homes - which as you might imagine can be quite different.  When we monkey around with how we make these calculations upon which so many important economic markers are based - it's not good especially over the long term. 

Here's a link that helps dispel some of the commonly held myths about CPI:









						Common Misconceptions about the Consumer Price Index: Questions and Answers :  U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
					

Common Misconceptions about the Consumer Price Index: Questions and Answers




					www.bls.gov
				




Because we have monkeyed with how CPI-U and headline CPI is calculated, there's a website I check called shadowstats.com that tracks how we used to calculate CPI back in 1980 before monkeying around with the statistics, and also prior to us monkeying around in the early 1990s.  Perhaps the charts below may feel a bit more "real world" in what we're actually experiencing...


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## emeryjre (Mar 7, 2022)

Superchief said:


> It's ironic that the methods being used to transport this oil (trains, trucks, barges) all cost more, are less safe, take more time, and have greater impact on the environment. Millions of dollars had already been spent.  This decision sure made a lot of sense


Several of my neighbors in ND are real happy with how oil is moved from the Baken.  They have good high paying jobs related to moving oil from the Baken.  So someone else might have gained a job, but they would have lost theirs.  The cost of transporting the oil is reflected in the price that is paid for the oil at the well head.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 7, 2022)

Superchief said:


> I've been thinking about the reasons that our leadership has chosen not to modify their US oil production policies as well as allowing the completion of the pipeline. These actions would gradually at least partially alleviate supply problems, and would assure that we have oil access if global tensions expand. These are my thoughts regarding potential reasons for doing nothing up until now.
> 
> They are afraid that people will wonder why they didn't do something sooner to prevent this dramatic increase to begin with. Gas prices were going up dramatically even before the Ukraine invasion.
> They are afraid of the green energy advocates, and want gas to go up substantially so people will be forced to stop driving fossil fuel vehicles. This ignores the fact the world will be relying on fossil fuels for another 50 years as new technologies become viable and affordable.
> ...



The current administration has approved 34% _more _drilling leases than the previous administration in the first year:









						New Data: Biden’s First Year Drilling Permitting Stomps Trump’s By 34%
					

Center for Biological Diversity: Thousands of Permits OK’d Despite President’s Authority to End Drilling by 2035



					biologicaldiversity.org
				




Please note the link above comes from a decidedly left of center organization that is critical of fossil fuels in general - just in case anyone wants to question the validity of the data that is readily available to anyone who wants to actually look at the data as opposed to talking points.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> The current administration has approved 34% _more _drilling leases than the previous administration in the first year:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This looks to be comparing first year permits to first year permits of each administration. It doesn't point out that monthly permits in 2020 were, on average, 452 and went down to about 300 in the first year of the new administration. It should also be pointed out that most of the permits being issued are because courts have blocked the bans against issuing new permits. So the permits issued aren't necessarily being done willingly. Oh how they like to spin their stories to meet their narrative.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 7, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> This looks to be comparing first year permits to first year permits of each administration. It doesn't point out that monthly permits in 2020 were, on average, 452 and went down to about 300 in the first year of the new administration. It should also be pointed out that most of the permits being issued are because courts have blocked the bans against issuing new permits. So the permits issued aren't necessarily being done willingly. Oh how they like to spin their stories to meet their narrative.



Please provide evidence of your talking points.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 7, 2022)

I guess I'll stick my oar in. I suspect I'm the only one here who actually makes money directly from oil and gas production. . . and it's tied to BLM permit leasing.

You have to look at the price of oil at the time when you are looking at permits. 2017 had low prices, which reduced that rate of drilling. The higher the price of O/G, the higher the rate of drilling - assuming, of course that there is enough up-front money to drill wells with. 

Furthermore, with the demand for reduced CO2 production, long term projects are not being funded, as the expectation is that by the time they get producing, they won't be able to recoup the investment money, much less make a profit.

So, you're getting a shortage. it isn't just US demand, there's demand all over the world. . .


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## Superchief (Mar 7, 2022)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> I guess I'll stick my oar in. I suspect I'm the only one here who actually makes money directly from oil and gas production. . . and it's tied to BLM permit leasing.
> 
> You have to look at the price of oil at the time when you are looking at permits. 2017 had low prices, which reduced that rate of drilling. The higher the price of O/G, the higher the rate of drilling - assuming, of course that there is enough up-front money to drill wells with.
> 
> ...



I pulled the following quote from a more in-depth article from CNBC that was posted on another thread. This clearly captures a key reason oil companies are reluctant to invest in new production;

'Biden’s climate plan includes goals to transition from fossil fuels to clean energy, cut emissions from electric power to zero by 2035 and reach net-zero emissions by 2050.'

Does anyone think it is realistic to expect complete elimination of fossil fuel by 2050? Would this really improve our climate situation? I don't understand why more attention isn't given to preserving our forests, farmland, and water resources. I learned that plants convert CO2 to Oxygen while in the fourth grade. Forests and farmland also provide slower absorption and evaporation of water, thus reducing droughts and floods. Population growth and water demands in the dry Western region has likely had more impact on climate in the area than carbon emissions. The new chip factory in Ohio will cover more than 200 acres of farmland and chip production will require millions of gallons of water. How will this impact climate?

The fixation on fossil fuels will not solve our problems and there are currently no alternatives without their own issues.


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## ScoopKona (Mar 7, 2022)

emeryjre said:


> Tried the Toyota Mirai on a long term lease.  Gave it back after 30 days.  No hydrogen available.  They were not happy, but neither was I.  The vehicle itself was very nice and using the first tank of fuel was lot of fun.  This was 4 years ago.
> 
> California had/has been promising Hydrogen at the new stations.  Not sure what the supply situation is currently.
> 
> The research to produce green hydrogen is very intense. Hopefully one the weekly lab announcements will really produce low cost, low carbon hydrogen.



All hydrogen is not just "low carbon" it's NO CARBON. Carbon is a different element, after all. The only byproduct harvesting Hydrogen is Oxygen. And the only byproduct when consuming it is pure water.

Carbon doesn't enter into the picture -- unless the electricity used to harvest the H2 from seawater comes from a coal/gas powered plant. 

The ideal solution is to use solar/wind/geothermal/hydroelectric during off peak times to harvest the H2. Iceland could run H2 plants all day and all night.


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## emeryjre (Mar 7, 2022)

ScoopLV said:


> All hydrogen is not just "low carbon" it's NO CARBON. Carbon is a different element, after all. The only byproduct harvesting Hydrogen is Oxygen. And the only byproduct when consuming it is pure water.
> 
> Carbon doesn't enter into the picture -- unless the electricity used to harvest the H2 from seawater comes from a coal/gas powered plant.
> 
> The ideal solution is to use solar/wind/geothermal/hydroelectric during off peak times to harvest the H2. Iceland could run H2 plants all day and all night.


Hydrogen production is very carbon intensive.  Once it is produced, there is no carbon, but producing H2 iv very carbon intensive

There are various names for Hydrogen production.  The one you are describing is known as green hydrogen.  I am not aware of any large scale production of H2 that qualifies for green hydrogen as of yet.  It is the goal, but there are technical barriers that have not been overcome yet. 

google search for:  green hydrogen vs blue hydrogen will produce tons of articles


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## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Please provide evidence of your talking points.


Some are right there in the link you provided;
_New federal data shows the Biden administration approved 3,557 permits for oil and gas drilling on public lands in its *first year*, far outpacing the Trump administration’s *first-year* total of 2,658._

Then there is this quoting 2020 permit numbers. Of course this article is trying to make the same argument yours did;
_monthly permits jumped to 452 in 2020 as fossil fuel companies stocked up on them in anticipation of an administration less supportive of drilling._








						Why Biden is approving public lands oil drilling permits faster than Trump did — and angering environmentalists
					

The Biden administration has issued more permits for oil and gas drilling on public land per month than the Trump administration did in its first three years, according to a new analysis of federal data.




					news.yahoo.com
				




Wasn't an executive order signed within days of inauguration to ban new drilling permits? Yes, it was. That seems to prove they are less supportive of drilling


			https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/biden-suspends-oil-and-gas-drilling-in-series-of.html
		


Then we have the courts blocking that ban;








						Federal judge blocks Biden's ban on leases for drilling on public lands
					

The Interior Department said it would “comply with the decision,” signaling that lease sales to drill in Alaska and in the Gulf of Mexico will likely resume — at least for now.




					www.nbcnews.com
				




Then recently we have a new freeze on new permits because a judge blocked the methods the new administration was using to calculate the cost on the climate. Under the prior administration that number was $7 per ton and the new administration moved it to $51. Instead of just reverting back to the prior calculation, they froze new permits. That doesn't seem like they are really all that willing to offer more drilling.








						Biden Administration Halts New Drilling in Legal Fight Over Climate Costs
					

The Interior Department is pausing new federal oil and gas leases and permits after a judge blocked the government from weighing the cost of climate damage in decisions.




					www.nytimes.com


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## easyrider (Mar 7, 2022)

Superchief said:


> Does anyone think it is realistic to expect complete elimination of fossil fuel by 2050? Would this really improve our climate situation?



It will be painful for sure but yes. I think so because of the advances in technology and the fact that tech builds on tech. There will be some amazing discoveries made in next decade, imo.

Not so much of an improvement for the climate but definitely an improvement for the environment, imo. 

Bill


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## Superchief (Mar 7, 2022)

easyrider said:


> It will be painful for sure but yes. I think so because of the advances in technology and the fact that tech builds on tech. There will be some amazing discoveries made in next decade, imo.
> 
> Not so much of an improvement for the climate but definitely an improvement for the environment, imo.
> 
> Bill


Even if all new vehicles sold after 2030 are carbon free, a big if, many of them will still be around in 2050. Most people and businesses can't afford to replace their vehicles when they are still in excellent condition. New technology will also have to be affordable and not present other environmental issues, such as lithium battery replacement and disposal.


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## easyrider (Mar 7, 2022)

Superchief said:


> Even if all new vehicles sold after 2030 are carbon free, a big if, many of them will still be around in 2050. Most people and businesses can't afford to replace their vehicles when they are still in excellent condition. New technology will also have to be affordable and not present other environmental issues, such as lithium battery replacement and disposal.



I know. That is why I say it will be painful. I think the technology exists for atmospheric ev charging but there are some bugs to work out because there isn't a payment mechanism. If atmospheric ev charging becomes available there would eventually be no need for a battery. The ev would run on atmospheric electricity. The biggest obstacle of using this tech is paying for the using something that is abundantly free, imo.

Bill


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## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

easyrider said:


> I know. That is why I say it will be painful. I think the technology exists for atmospheric ev charging but there are some bugs to work out because there isn't a payment mechanism. If atmospheric ev charging becomes available there would eventually be no need for a battery. The ev would run on atmospheric electricity. The biggest obstacle of using this tech is paying for the using something that is abundantly free, imo.
> 
> Bill


You are talking about technology that isn't even developed yet.


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## nomoretslt (Mar 7, 2022)

Price of regular gas in Southeast NC/Northeast SC border up 75 cents per gallon in less than a week.  $3.79 in SC (less taxes), $3.99 NC.


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## TUGBrian (Mar 7, 2022)

certainly not a pretty picture for those with regular or lengthy commutes!


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 7, 2022)

Superchief said:


> Even if all new vehicles sold after 2030 are carbon free, a big if, many of them will still be around in 2050. Most people and businesses can't afford to replace their vehicles when they are still in excellent condition. New technology will also have to be affordable and not present other environmental issues, such as lithium battery replacement and disposal.



It won't be as painful as many think it will be - especially when we consider the fact that BEVs have far fewer moving parts and are therefore prone to much longer lifespans.  The 4680 battery packs coming into production this year are 1mm mile batteries.  The current 2170 battery packs are 500k battery packs.  The average ICE vehicle's lifespan, at present, is 140k miles in comparison.  Long term the BEV ownership is an economic winner for everyone involved in other words.   In theory a 1mm mile battery pack, assuming 20k/year miles driven, would last 50 years.  The concept of swapping out vehicles every few years is very likely going to change as the transportation fleet converts over to BEV based upon this fact alone.  The pain involved is in keeping ICE vehicles that require constant upkeep and maintenance in comparison.  Consumers will vote with their pocketbooks in this regard.  Many already are - demand for BEVs far outstrips current supply.


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## easyrider (Mar 7, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> You are talking about technology that isn't even developed yet.



That's probably true regarding development for the commercial public use but it was theoretically proved by Richard Feynman back in the 60's that electricity can be harvested from the atmosphere. After 70+ years of scientific research I'm pretty sure they have it figured out with the exception of the financials. 

Bill


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## TravelTime (Mar 7, 2022)

Deleted…too many typos and my brain is not functioning!


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## Ken555 (Mar 7, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> In CA, that can easily be 300 miles a week. At an average of $5 a gallon in CA, that could mean $1500 a month.



$1500 / 4 = $375 per week
$375 / 300 miles = $1.25 per mile
$5 gallon / $1.25 = 4 miles per gallon

Try again.


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## bogey21 (Mar 7, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> It won't be as painful as many think it will be - especially when we consider the fact that BEVs have far fewer moving parts and are therefore prone to much longer lifespans.



Most likely longer EV lifespans at some point will result in 15-20 year loans with somewhat reasonable monthly loan or lease payments...

George


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## TravelTime (Mar 7, 2022)

Deleted…too many typos and my brain is not functioning!


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## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> 300 miles a week x $5 a gallon = $1500 per week. That is 30 miles each way or 60 miles a day. That is not unusual in many parts of CA. But let’s just say the average low income person drives half that or 15 miles each way to work. It would be $750 a week. Or even a quarter at $375 a week. This is all crazy high. I spend $72 a week on gas even at close to $6 a gallon.
> 
> Note: I had a typo in the second sentence. In my paragraph, I said “per week” in first sentence and had a typo in second sentence. Most people would have understood but, of course, I fixed it.


I think you are looking at getting 1MPG? That isn't right. If you get 20MPG, your 300 miles is only 15 gallons of gas a week. That works out to $75 a week in gas or $300 a month.


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## Ken555 (Mar 7, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> 300 miles a week x $5 a gallon = $1500 per week. That is 30 miles each way or 60 miles a day.



How many miles per gallon in this hypothetical scenario? That was the point of my earlier response.

And now you're writing that it's $1500 PER WEEK. Fairly sure that's not what you meant.

If it's 300 miles a week, costs $375 per week ($1500 / 4) and gas is $5/gallon, then you're buying 75 gallons per week (375 / 5), which means your car is only getting 4 miles per gallon. Are you sure that's what you wanted to write?


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## Ken555 (Mar 7, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> If you get 20MPG, your 300 miles is only 15 gallons of gas a week. That works out to $75 a week in gas or $300 a month.



Yup. And many people drive fuel efficient vehicles with 25-30 miles per gallon. So if 30 miles per gallon, then it's just 10 gallons per week or $50 per week or $200 per month. Even at 20mpg it's a long way from $300 per month to $1500.

Hey, we all make little mistakes now and then. I'm sure @TravelTime was just rushed when she posted this.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 7, 2022)

bogey21 said:


> Most likely longer EV lifespans at some point will result in 15-20 year loans with somewhat reasonable monthly loan or lease payments...
> 
> George



Agreed - similar to financing boats for example.  Only time will tell of course.  The other thought is that if TaaS takes hold - whenever self driving AI actually matures to the point of production implementation and legislative approval - then you'll be able to deploy your vehicle into the TaaS fleet when not in use (which is 95% of it's useful life).  Then your vehicle is actually making you money when not in use.  People cannot imagine not owning a personal vehicle at present - but 20 years out from today - it's feasible that humans driving will be the exception and not the rule.


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## TravelTime (Mar 7, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I think you are looking at getting 1MPG? That isn't right. If you get 20MPG, your 300 miles is only 15 gallons of gas a week. That works out to $75 a week in gas or $300 a month.



Ha ha…you are right. Many people with jobs a good distance away drive many times more than me so I can only imagine their monthly gas bills. No more match for me although I am going to track my driving habits for a little while only because I am curious.


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## Ken555 (Mar 7, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Agreed - similar to financing boats for example.  Only time will tell of course.  The other thought is that if TaaS takes hold - whenever self driving AI actually matures to the point of production implementation and legislative approval - then you'll be able to deploy your vehicle into the TaaS fleet when not in use (which is 95% of it's useful life).  Then your vehicle is actually making you money when not in use.  People cannot imagine not owning a personal vehicle at present - but 20 years out from today - it's feasible that humans driving will be the exception and not the rule.



I would love not having to own a car. I have friends (also in California) who believe the same... we can't wait for the technology to advance sufficiency for this to become a reality.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> I would love not having to own a car. I have friends (also in California) who believe the same... we can't wait for the technology to advance sufficiency for this to become a reality.


It sounds fantastic. Even with all the promises though, I don't expect to see it in my lifetime and I am in my mid 40s.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> It won't be as painful as many think it will be - especially when we consider the fact that BEVs have far fewer moving parts and are therefore prone to much longer lifespans.  The 4680 battery packs coming into production this year are 1mm mile batteries.  The current 2170 battery packs are 500k battery packs.  The average ICE vehicle's lifespan, at present, is 140k miles in comparison.  Long term the BEV ownership is an economic winner for everyone involved in other words.   In theory a 1mm mile battery pack, assuming 20k/year miles driven, would last 50 years.  The concept of swapping out vehicles every few years is very likely going to change as the transportation fleet converts over to BEV based upon this fact alone.  The pain involved is in keeping ICE vehicles that require constant upkeep and maintenance in comparison.  Consumers will vote with their pocketbooks in this regard.  Many already are - demand for BEVs far outstrips current supply.


While it all sounds great, it doesn't really do anything to solve our problems today and to suggest that we dismiss today's issue of high gas prices based on promises to tomorrow doesn't really help those (not us) that hurt most from inflation and higher energy prices.


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## PigsDad (Mar 7, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Agreed - similar to financing boats for example.  Only time will tell of course.  The other thought is that if TaaS takes hold - whenever self driving AI actually matures to the point of production implementation and legislative approval - then you'll be able to deploy your vehicle into the TaaS fleet when not in use (which is 95% of it's useful life).  Then your vehicle is actually making you money when not in use.  People cannot imagine not owning a personal vehicle at present - but 20 years out from today - it's feasible that humans driving will be the exception and not the rule.


TaaS is will probably be the most disruptive change we may see in the near-term future, IMO.  Think beyond individual ownership of cars (or whatever they will known as).  TaaS would have major impacts on housing (no need for houses to have garages and driveways, no need for cities to have huge parking lots / ramps, etc.).  With fully autonomous vehicles, road design could be completely different than today, intersections wouldn't need stoplights (just weave all of the vehicles through), dynamic lane assignments for freeways (allocate direction of lanes based on capacity need), etc.  Lots of possible, game-changing innovations.

Kurt


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## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> TaaS is will probably be the most disruptive change we may see in the near-term future, IMO.  Think beyond individual ownership of cars (or whatever they will known as).  TaaS would have major impacts on housing (no need for houses to have garages and driveways, no need for cities to have huge parking lots / ramps, etc.).  With fully autonomous vehicles, road design could be completely different than today, intersections wouldn't need stoplights (just weave all of the vehicles through), dynamic lane assignments for freeways (allocate direction of lanes based on capacity need), etc.  Lots of possible, game-changing innovations.
> 
> Kurt


This all assumes that 100% of drivers would be using TaaS. That won't happen any time in the near-term. Also, who owns the cars? What happens if you violate some terms of service of the company that does own the cars. What if you say something on social media or have certainly leanings that the company doesn't like (happens today). No more rides for you!

This "you will own nothing and be happy" is rather troublesome.


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## PigsDad (Mar 7, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> This all assumes that 100% of drivers would be using TaaS. That won't happen any time in the near-term. Also, who owns the cars? What happens if you violate some terms of service of the company that does own the cars. What if you say something on social media or have certainly leanings that the company doesn't like (happens today). No more rides for you!
> 
> This "you will own nothing and be happy" is rather troublesome.


You're still thinking inside the box.  And near-term is relative.   

Kurt


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## TravelTime (Mar 7, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> This all assumes that 100% of drivers would be using TaaS. That won't happen any time in the near-term. Also, who owns the cars? What happens if you violate some terms of service of the company that does own the cars. What if you say something on social media or have certainly leanings that the company doesn't like (happens today). No more rides for you!
> 
> This "you will own nothing and be happy" is rather troublesome.



I have been talking about flying cars for a long time. My husband at Apple thought I was nuts (maybe I am). But I think there is room for skepticism about how it will be executed. There are many things that have been talked about for decades and/or around for a very long time that would greatly reduce oil and energy dependence that still have not become practical.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> You're still thinking inside the box.  And near-term is relative.
> 
> Kurt


Asking about disparate treatment of customers certainly isn't thinking inside the box. Near term would be something that could potentially solve the issue as fast as increasing production of petroleum can (a few years). Or really look into why fuel prices are really going up. No change in supply or demand at the pump is causing the recent increases.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I have been talking about flying cars for a long time. My husband at Apple thought I was nuts (maybe I am). But I think there is room for skepticism about how it will be executed. There are many things that have been talked about for decades and/or around for a very long time that would greatly reduce oil and energy dependence that still have not become practical.


Yeah, it is all a pipe dream.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 7, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> You're still thinking inside the box.  And near-term is relative.
> 
> Kurt


TaaS (Transportation as a Service) is not a matter of technology. It is a matter of population density. Look at New York City. It has had TaaS (effectively) for over my lifetime. What is a taxi but TaaS? Or a subway? It's only effective in high density urban environments.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 7, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> It sounds fantastic. Even with all the promises though, I don't expect to see it in my lifetime and I am in my mid 40s.



If you have driven any of the Tesla vehicles using FSD recently - you'd know this is largely already here today.  I road tripped with a friend of mine recently on a trip back and forth from Delaware to South Carolina.  We used his M3 with FSD.  Out of sixteen hours of drive time - us humans drove for a grand total of 32 minutes - about half of which was by choice - only about 16 minutes was due to FSD requesting human assistance.  So in other words - the AI drove for 928 out of 960 minutes of drive time.  This technology is much closer than most people realize.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 7, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> While it all sounds great, it doesn't really do anything to solve our problems today and to suggest that we dismiss today's issue of high gas prices based on promises to tomorrow doesn't really help those (not us) that hurt most from inflation and higher energy prices.



That's why we should be using an "all of the above" approach.  Use carbon capture tech to produce fossil fuel based energy now during the transition period.  We should be subsidizing the heck out of carbon capture tech right now - which we really aren't doing and haven't done.  But the fact that drilling ROI is measured in terms of years or even decades - when we look at many automotive companies converting to entirely BEV fleets by 2035 - the ROI isn't anywhere near what it's been even just a few years ago.  The wartime geopolitical impacts we are seeing right now are always tough to predict - hindsight is always 20/20.  Inflation is here to stay for the near term unfortunately - for many very valid economic reasons.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 7, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Yeah, it is all a pipe dream.



Except for the fact that Tesla has clearly demonstrated it's feasible and has demand outstripping supply to the tune of 6-12 month backlogs for the M3 and MY now.  It's far from a pipe dream - just look around you.  This is the same transformation we saw when converting transportation from the horse and buggy to mass produced automobiles - and we're watching it play out before our very eyes.  By 2035 - things will look very different than they do today in this respect.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 7, 2022)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> TaaS (Transportation as a Service) is not a matter of technology. It is a matter of population density. Look at New York City. It has had TaaS (effectively) for over my lifetime. What is a taxi but TaaS? Or a subway? It's only effective in high density urban environments.



This isn't true when we apply full self driving to TaaS - it would apply regardless of urban or rural location - though it certainly works better especially in the short term for urban environments.  We would only need 20% of the vehicles currently on the road to run a TaaS infrastructure in comparison given vehicles are only used roughly 5% of the time that we own them.  But I take your point.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 7, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> This isn't true when we apply full self driving to TaaS - it would apply regardless of urban or rural location - though it certainly works better especially in the short term for urban environments.  We would only need 20% of the vehicles currently on the road to run a TaaS infrastructure in comparison given vehicles are only used roughly 5% of the time that we own them.  But I take your point.


There are two different aspects to TaaS - and they are not tied together. Ownership and service.

NYC is based on eliminating the ownership aspect. You don't own a car, you rent a ride (Taxi,Subway, Bus, ect.) Self driving technology doesn't matter, you rent the human driver with the ride.

Self driving does not preclude ownership. I could have a self driving car and still own it 100% - and park it in my garage. Nor does it require BEV technology . It could work just as well with ICE.

To me, it boils down to the concept - do you want to control your transportation ability? I do (very much). I want 24x7 availability, with unlimited range. And at a nearly fixed price. Like the western cowboy in the 19th century and his horse. If I want to "light a shuck" at 2 AM to Noplacespecial, I can and will.

But that is a matter of taste. YMMV.


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## joestein (Mar 7, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I have been talking about flying cars for a long time. My husband at Apple thought I was nuts (maybe I am). But I think there is room for skepticism about how it will be executed. There are many things that have been talked about for decades and/or around for a very long time that would greatly reduce oil and energy dependence that still have not become practical.



I dont think the problem is making cars fly - I think that can and will happen.   I think air traffic is the issue - who is going to control that.  Do you want two flying cars crashing over a residential neightborhood?  or the engine dying out?


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## joestein (Mar 7, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> If you have driven any of the Tesla vehicles using FSD recently - you'd know this is largely already here today.  I road tripped with a friend of mine recently on a trip back and forth from Delaware to South Carolina.  We used his M3 with FSD.  Out of sixteen hours of drive time - us humans drove for a grand total of 32 minutes - about half of which was by choice - only about 16 minutes was due to FSD requesting human assistance.  So in other words - the AI drove for 928 out of 960 minutes of drive time.  This technology is much closer than most people realize.



Can't WAIT for that.   I would to be able to have a few drinks and have the car drive me home.   Or sleep during the night while the car is driving me down to Florida.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 7, 2022)

joestein said:


> Can't WAIT for that. I would to be able to have a few drinks and have the car drive me home. Or sleep during the night while the car is driving me down to Florida.



The FSD was really quite impressive over such a long road trip. The biggest challenges we experienced were range and recharge times. It’s a 600 mile trip each way. Realistically we could go about 250 miles per charge. Sure the range is 321 miles on my friends M3LR but that’s going from 100% to 0% which isn’t realistic. So figure about 80% of 320 miles per charge or around 250-260 miles. Each charge at a Tesla charger took us about 45 minutes all total. That added about 1.5-2 hours each way to our road trip - and then we had to find a local charger in Myrtle Beach once we arrived for another 30-40 minutes. 

I could have made the entire 600 mile trip one way in my pickup truck without stopping in comparison. I would have been running on fumes but I’ve actually done it. 33 gallon fuel tank at 20MPG highway puts me at 660 miles maximum. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TravelTime (Mar 7, 2022)

joestein said:


> I dont think the problem is making cars fly - I think that can and will happen.   I think air traffic is the issue - who is going to control that.  Do you want two flying cars crashing over a residential neightborhood?  or the engine dying out?



I agree. That is why I said execution is the issue. So many things need to be worked out.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 7, 2022)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> There are two different aspects to TaaS - and they are not tied together. Ownership and service.
> 
> NYC is based on eliminating the ownership aspect. You don't own a car, you rent a ride (Taxi,Subway, Bus, ect.) Self driving technology doesn't matter, you rent the human driver with the ride.
> 
> ...



You are missing the most important aspect of TaaS. Long term cost of ownership and maintenance. This is what makes TaaS with ICE unsustainable compared to TaaS with BEV. When an ICE vehicle only lasts 150k miles in service and we compare that to 500k-1mm miles in service with a BEV vehicle - the results are clear. BEV wins hands down. One BEV vehicle using 100k miles/year will last 5-10 years. One ICE vehicle will last 1.5 years in comparison. This is the underlying reason why BEV and TaaS are married together. Diesel can help ICE since diesels can last much longer - which is why our commercial fleets almost universally use Diesel engines - but even in this instance the long term cost of ownership lends itself to BEV - this is why companies like Amazon, Fedex, UPS, and many others are going BEV for their commercial fleets.

In all but the most rural areas - the vast majority of consumers would be able to order a TaaS vehicle and have it appear at their home within 5-10 minutes.  That’s pretty close to around the clock near real time availability - and likely at a small fraction of the price that personal ownership and all of its fiscal drawbacks has to offer.  Strictly from a financial standpoint - owning a liability that is the second most expensive lifetime purchase for most people - and only using it 5% of the time - is a horrible ROI.  

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TravelTime (Mar 7, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> If you have driven any of the Tesla vehicles using FSD recently - you'd know this is largely already here today.  I road tripped with a friend of mine recently on a trip back and forth from Delaware to South Carolina.  We used his M3 with FSD.  Out of sixteen hours of drive time - us humans drove for a grand total of 32 minutes - about half of which was by choice - only about 16 minutes was due to FSD requesting human assistance.  So in other words - the AI drove for 928 out of 960 minutes of drive time.  This technology is much closer than most people realize.



Tesla must have improved rapidly. I have read mixed to not so good reviews on the self driving aspect of Tesla. I have not been in a Tesla so I can’t comment other than what I have read. A few questions out of curiosity and interest:

-Since the technology is so good, why is there anyone in the driver’s seat at all? 
-Does the Tesla take turns, brake, go on and off ramps, etc?
-Are all the Tesla models this advanced?
-Are there any other cars using the FSD technology or just Tesla? 

I might make my next car a Tesla if it is this advanced.


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> To me, it boils down to the concept - do you want to control your transportation ability? I do (very much). I want 24x7 availability, with unlimited range. And at a nearly fixed price. Like the western cowboy in the 19th century and his horse. If I want to "light a shuck" at 2 AM to Noplacespecial, I can and will.


The problem is, long term the plan is to not make this 24/7 availability or ownership available to the masses. These cars will either be far too expensive to even be available to buy by anyone except for the uber wealthy or the vehicles won't be available to buy at all. Price them high enough that you are pretty much forced to buy a transportation subscription...


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## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> If you have driven any of the Tesla vehicles using FSD recently - you'd know this is largely already here today.  I road tripped with a friend of mine recently on a trip back and forth from Delaware to South Carolina.  We used his M3 with FSD.  Out of sixteen hours of drive time - us humans drove for a grand total of 32 minutes - about half of which was by choice - only about 16 minutes was due to FSD requesting human assistance.  So in other words - the AI drove for 928 out of 960 minutes of drive time.  This technology is much closer than most people realize.


This works great for long distance mainly highway drives, but what about the jaunt across town on surface streets or over to the grocery store. I suspect most of the driving is going to be done by a human? Those 32 minutes are the barrier to full TaaS with 100% autonomy.


----------



## emeryjre (Mar 7, 2022)

Back from the future to a look at the current movement of oil in the US
Using a free link at WSJ









						How Much Oil Does the U.S. Import From Russia and Why Did Biden Ban It?
					

Despite being the top global producer, the U.S. had used Russian crude to service more isolated coastal markets and keep refineries running at optimal levels.




					www.wsj.com


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## dioxide45 (Mar 7, 2022)

Well, the $3.99 a gallon only lasted a few days here. Up to $4.19/gallon in our area of Florida.


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## geekette (Mar 7, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> The problem is, long term the plan is to not make this 24/7 availability or ownership available to the masses. These cars will either be far too expensive to even be available to buy by anyone except for the uber wealthy or the vehicles won't be available to buy at all. Price them high enough that you are pretty much forced to buy a transportation subscription...


Timeshare!    I’ll take mudseason.


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## Superchief (Mar 7, 2022)

After watching Star Trek for years when I was young, I had always hoped to be able to be beamed somewhere during my lifetime. I guess that won't happen.


----------



## MrockStar (Mar 7, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> The problem is, long term the plan is to not make this 24/7 availability or ownership available to the masses. These cars will either be far too expensive to even be available to buy by anyone except for the uber wealthy or the vehicles won't be available to buy at all. Price them high enough that you are pretty much forced to buy a transportation subscription...


And there lies the downfall for a lot of us who plan to move very far away from urban centers, which iam doing in about 3 to 4 years.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 7, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> This works great for long distance mainly highway drives, but what about the jaunt across town on surface streets or over to the grocery store. I suspect most of the driving is going to be done by a human? Those 32 minutes are the barrier to full TaaS with 100% autonomy.



Only 16 minutes where FSD actually required human intervention. This was mostly in parking lots, parking garages, navigating in very close quarters, etc. We used FSD for most of the around town haunts while local in Myrtle Beach area as well, but we didn’t track the local travel as closely as we did the actual road trip because we had other folks we were hanging out with in the vehicle with us. We will likely take another similar road trip in the fall and will track both the road trip and the local around town data at that time and see how well the FSD can navigate local driving I comparison. 

Autopilot is only for highway use - not to be confused with FSD which is the system that engages when you exit the highway and is designed primarily for city streets and local driving in comparison. So to be specific the vast majority of the road trip was actually managed by enhanced autopilot - FSD engages when autopilot doesn’t know what to do in essence. This is all instantaneous from a human observation standpoint. 

So for 960 minutes of our road trip - 944 of those minutes were driven by AI - or 98.3% of the road trip - whereas only 16 minutes required human intervention.  The remaining 16 minutes were chosen human intervention (preference).  IME unless you have firsthand experience with just how far FSD and autopilot have come - you just don’t understand how close we are to TaaS becoming a reality. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ScoopKona (Mar 7, 2022)

Superchief said:


> After watching Star Trek for years when I was young, I had always hoped to be able to be beamed somewhere during my lifetime. I guess that won't happen.




We can actually do that -- but only for very short distances and nobody can actually look at the object being teleported while the beaming happens


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## easyrider (Mar 8, 2022)

Superchief said:


> After watching Star Trek for years when I was young, I had always hoped to be able to be beamed somewhere during my lifetime. I guess that won't happen.



I heard an interview where Michio Kaku said that transporter technology would likely be happening in the next 100 years. Currently they can only beam small particles from one place to another. So you are right about it not happening in our lifetimes which is kind of a bummer. 

Bill


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## pedro47 (Mar 8, 2022)

Gas prices in the Tidewater Virginia areas are averaging $4.00 per gallon for regular gasoline.


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## joestein (Mar 8, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> The FSD was really quite impressive over such a long road trip. The biggest challenges we experienced were range and recharge times. It’s a 600 mile trip each way. Realistically we could go about 250 miles per charge. Sure the range is 321 miles on my friends M3LR but that’s going from 100% to 0% which isn’t realistic. So figure about 80% of 320 miles per charge or around 250-260 miles. Each charge at a Tesla charger took us about 45 minutes all total. That added about 1.5-2 hours each way to our road trip - and then we had to find a local charger in Myrtle Beach once we arrived for another 30-40 minutes.
> 
> I could have made the entire 600 mile trip one way in my pickup truck without stopping in comparison. I would have been running on fumes but I’ve actually done it. 33 gallon fuel tank at 20MPG highway puts me at 660 miles maximum.
> 
> ...



You don't necessarily need a EV for AI driving.   EV might be great for local travel, but as you point out, not so much for long distance.   I think the tech of the immediate future is Hybrid - until we figure out how to better charge EV vehicles.  - Maybe longer lasting batteries or new tech that can charge in 5 mins plus more locations overall.


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## bogey21 (Mar 8, 2022)

Hybrid makes sense to me.  I'm surprised it is not more prevalent...

George


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## joestein (Mar 8, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> The problem is, long term the plan is to not make this 24/7 availability or ownership available to the masses. These cars will either be far too expensive to even be available to buy by anyone except for the uber wealthy or the vehicles won't be available to buy at all. Price them high enough that you are pretty much forced to buy a transportation subscription...



That is where it will get interesting.  There will be different tiers of subscription.  Do you want a car in an instant or can you wait 1/2 hour.  Do you want to be driven in private lux vehicle or a shared van.

I have read about business plans where you will get your ride for free with a purchase.   For example - Starbucks is considering a mobile barista.  Your ride is free with your purchase.


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## PigsDad (Mar 8, 2022)

joestein said:


> You don't necessarily need a EV for AI driving.   EV might be great for local travel, but as you point out, not so much for long distance.   *I think the tech of the immediate future is Hybrid *- until we figure out how to better charge EV vehicles.  - Maybe longer lasting batteries or new tech that can charge in 5 mins plus more locations overall.


You have to look at how often the average person drives more than a single charge in a single day.  With ranges of 300 miles or better, I would bet that 99%+ of people only do that a few times a year.  If that is the case, there really is no need to go with a Hybrid vs. EV just for those few trips.  People may think they need a Hybrid, but in most cases an EV would actually suit them better.  The reduced maintenance and longevity of an EV outweighs the the very few times most people would take advantage of the Hybrid capabilities for long trips.

Kurt


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## joestein (Mar 8, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> You have to look at how often the average person drives more than a single charge in a single day.  With ranges of 300 miles or better, I would bet that 99%+ of people only do that a few times a year.  If that is the case, there really is no need to go with a Hybrid vs. EV just for those few trips.  People may think they need a Hybrid, but in most cases an EV would actually suit them better.  The reduced maintenance and longevity of an EV outweighs the the very few times most people would take advantage of the Hybrid capabilities for long trips.
> 
> Kurt



Maybe - with a hybrid - you dont need a charger to be installed in your home.     I am also concerned about the life of the batteries.  I think I have read stories where the charge doesn't hold as much or last as long within a few years.  I have heard the batteries re incredibly expensive to buy.


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## Superchief (Mar 8, 2022)

TUGBrian said:


> certainly not a pretty picture for those with regular or lengthy commutes!
> 
> View attachment 48440


This chart clearly illustrates that policy changes increased prices long before the recovery and war. The 'war on oil' started with the executive orders issued on 1/21/21. That is when the curve starts its upward trend.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 8, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> You are missing the most important aspect of TaaS. Long term cost of ownership and maintenance. This is what makes TaaS with ICE unsustainable compared to TaaS with BEV. When an ICE vehicle only lasts 150k miles in service and we compare that to 500k-1mm miles in service with a BEV vehicle - the results are clear. BEV wins hands down. One BEV vehicle using 100k miles/year will last 5-10 years. One ICE vehicle will last 1.5 years in comparison. This is the underlying reason why BEV and TaaS are married together. Diesel can help ICE since diesels can last much longer - which is why our commercial fleets almost universally use Diesel engines - but even in this instance the long term cost of ownership lends itself to BEV - this is why companies like Amazon, Fedex, UPS, and many others are going BEV for their commercial fleets.
> 
> In all but the most rural areas - the vast majority of consumers would be able to order a TaaS vehicle and have it appear at their home within 5-10 minutes.  That’s pretty close to around the clock near real time availability - and likely at a small fraction of the price that personal ownership and all of its fiscal drawbacks has to offer.  Strictly from a financial standpoint - owning a liability that is the second most expensive lifetime purchase for most people - and only using it 5% of the time - is a horrible ROI.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What's the ROI on travelling? Zero. Nor will TaaS be necessarily cheaper. There will be a profit margin built in by the providers, and as more people become dependent on TaaS, that margin will increase. (Monopoly pricing, you know.) 

My ICE cost me $23,000 in 2011. I've put less than $1000 in repairs, and another couple of thousand in wear items - tires, batteries, windshield wipers, ect. $26,000 / 11 years /12 months per year = $197 a month. Call it $100 a month for insurance (actually less). I don't consider that unaffordable, nor do I expect the cost to rise dramatically (on average, these are strange times) over time. BEV's batteries currently last only around 10 years, and have the occasional habit of burning, in an uncontrollable fire. Plus they have shorter range, and longer downtime for "fueling"; both of which work against TaaS. And what about rush hour pricing?

If living trapped in a high density urban core is so appealing, why did suburbs come into existence in the first place. Because that is what TaaS does, it traps people in a high density urban core.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 8, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Tesla must have improved rapidly. I have read mixed to not so good reviews on the self driving aspect of Tesla. I have not been in a Tesla so I can’t comment other than what I have read.



FSD is now up to v10.9 with a major v11 on the immediate horizon.  FSD has been improving with relative rapidity over the last several years now.



> A few questions out of curiosity and interest:
> 
> -Since the technology is so good, why is there anyone in the driver’s seat at all?



Because that is not currently legal.  Legislation will have to catch up with the technology.  FSD is also not a level five autonomous driving solution yet either.  Technically it's still only level two, here are the levels as defined by the NHTSA:






> -Does the Tesla take turns, brake, go on and off ramps, etc?



Yes, that is what FSD does.



> -Are all the Tesla models this advanced?



Not all no.  FSD is generally available on model years 2014 and up, but there are caveats related to both hardware and software on various vehicle models and model years.  Here's what Tesla has to say about this topic:









						Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability | Tesla Support
					

Autopilot is an advanced driver assistance system that enhances safety and convenience behind the wheel. When used properly, Autopilot reduces your overall workload as a driver. Learn more about Autopilot.




					www.tesla.com
				






> -Are there any other cars using the FSD technology or just Tesla?



Other automotive manufacturers have their own flavors of FSD.  GM has Super Cruise, Ford has BlueCruise, VW has IQ DRIVE, etc.  IMHO none of them are as far along as Tesla's AI.  



> I might make my next car a Tesla if it is this advanced.



I suspect we will see a jump up from level two to level three with FSD within the next couple of years.  Musk has promised full time FSD for many years now - but lately he has backed off speaking publicly about it much - because true level five autonomous driving is likely still quite a few years off.  This is mostly because of the unpredictability of human error.  As long as there are humans driving - there will be driving errors that machines would never allow for - and would communicate with each other almost instantaneously regarding situational data to avoid problems.  This is not possible with a human being at the wheel in comparison - though it would be possible for the vehicle itself to broadcast situational data to other autonomous vehicles in its immediate vicinity to help offset the unpredictability factors.


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## PigsDad (Mar 8, 2022)

joestein said:


> Maybe - with a hybrid - you dont need a charger to be installed in your home.     I am also concerned about the life of the batteries.  I think I have read stories where the charge doesn't hold as much or last as long within a few years.  I have heard the batteries re incredibly expensive to buy.


With the new batteries being manufactured that will be rated at 1 million miles, I think battery longevity will be a non-issue.

Kurt


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## MdRef (Mar 8, 2022)

U.S. to ban Russian oil imports today.

Bank of America says if most of Russia's oil exports were stopped, the market would be in a 5-million-bpd deficit or bigger, which *could trigger an oil price move to $200 per barrel. *


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## TravelTime (Mar 8, 2022)

My car is nothing like a Tesla with FSD. I drive a 7 year old Acura RDX so nothing fancy. However, at the time I got this car, it was fully loaded with all technology available at the time. It has many safety features that I never thought I would need since I think I am a careful driver. A simple safety feature is when you turn on the blinker to change lanes, it beeps if a car is next to you. I have always used this feature but it was mostly just a second warning after I looked in the blind spot. Yesterday, this feature prevented what could have been a big accident for me. So after 7 years driving this car, I am very grateful for its “outdated” technology that may have saved my life or at least prevented a huge accident on the highway.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 8, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> You have to look at how often the average person drives more than a single charge in a single day.  With ranges of 300 miles or better, I would bet that 99%+ of people only do that a few times a year.  If that is the case, there really is no need to go with a Hybrid vs. EV just for those few trips.  People may think they need a Hybrid, but in most cases an EV would actually suit them better.  The reduced maintenance and longevity of an EV outweighs the the very few times most people would take advantage of the Hybrid capabilities for long trips.
> 
> Kurt



Agreed.  People tend to focus on the exception not the rule.  Focus on the 80% not the 20%.  The other point worth making is that the last time I checked - one of the chief advantages of BEVs is that you will charge them at home to meet the vast majority (80%+) of your day to day driving needs.  There's no need for five minute charging at a station away from your home when 80+% of your day to day driving will be met by the range of the current battery pack in your BEV - charged at home overnight while you sleep.  When you look at the actual vehicle usage patterns - home charging will meet 80+% of actual driving needs.  This means that the number of remote charging stations needed will be nowhere close to the number of gas stations currently required - since the last time I checked - only farmers and precious few other professions keep large quantities of diesel and/or gasoline on their premise close to their domicile.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 8, 2022)

MdRef said:


> U.S. to ban Russian oil imports today.
> 
> Bank of America says if most of Russia's oil exports were stopped, the market would be in a 5-million-bpd deficit or bigger, which *could trigger an oil price move to $200 per barrel. *



This will likely accelerate the move toward BEV over the next couple of years - even more rapidly than we are already witnessing.


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## MdRef (Mar 8, 2022)

Big Oil Profits Soar To *$174 Billion* As Americans Bear Higher Gas Prices.

“Americans looking for someone to blame for the pain they experience at the pump need look no further than the wealthy oil and gas company executives who choose to line their own pockets rather than lower gas prices with the billions of dollars in profit big oil rakes in month after month,” said Kyle Herrig, president of Accountable.US.  









						Higher Gas Prices As Big Oil Profits Soar To $174 Billion
					

24 of the top Big Oil and gas corporations made $174 billion in profits this year while hiking gas prices on American consumers.




					www.accountable.us


----------



## Tia (Mar 8, 2022)

This seems to be true of all company executives including pharmaceuticals, banks , insurance etc



MdRef said:


> Big Oil Profits Soar To *$174 Billion* As Americans Bear Higher Gas Prices.
> 
> “Americans looking for someone to blame for the pain they experience at the pump need look no further than the wealthy oil and gas company executives who choose to line their own pockets rather than lower gas prices with the billions of dollars in profit big oil rakes in month after month,” said Kyle Herrig, president of Accountable.US.
> 
> ...


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 8, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Agreed.  People tend to focus on the exception not the rule.  Focus on the 80% not the 20%.  The other point worth making is that the last time I checked - one of the chief advantages of BEVs is that you will charge them at home to meet the vast majority (80%+) of your day to day driving needs.  There's no need for five minute charging at a station away from your home when 80+% of your day to day driving will be met by the range of the current battery pack in your BEV - charged at home overnight while you sleep.  When you look at the actual vehicle usage patterns - home charging will meet 80+% of actual driving needs.  This means that the number of remote charging stations needed will be nowhere close to the number of gas stations currently required - since the last time I checked - only farmers and precious few other professions keep large quantities of diesel and/or gasoline on their premise close to their domicile.


This is ignoring the fact that 20% of the population lives in multifamily housing. Whether that be apartments or condominiums. We have a long way to go to get those places to install enough charging stations to meet the needs of all the residents.


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## joestein (Mar 8, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> With the new batteries being manufactured that will be rated at 1 million miles, I think battery longevity will be a non-issue.
> 
> Kurt



Talking about it and actually manufacturing it without defects in mass numbers is another thing entirely.


----------



## joestein (Mar 8, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> My car is nothing like a Tesla with FSD. I drive a 7 year old Acura RDX so nothing fancy. However, at the time I got this car, it was fully loaded with all technology available at the time. It has many safety features that I never thought I would need since I think I am a careful driver. A simple safety feature is when you turn on the blinker to change lanes, it beeps if a car is next to you. I have always used this feature but it was mostly just a second warning after I looked in the blind spot. Yesterday, this feature prevented what could have been a big accident for me. So after 7 years driving this car, I am very grateful for its “outdated” technology that may have saved my life or at least prevented a huge accident on the highway.



I have two Acura MDXs - 2011 and 2020.  I think the SH-AWD is great, but otherwise I think the Acura driving technology stinks.  It seems to react when it shouldn't.  For example - a car slows down in front of me to make a right turn.  I start to pass them as they have almost completed the turn and are no longer in front of me -  the car starts to break like I am going to have a head on collision, even though I  am not close to having any sort of collision.


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## joestein (Mar 8, 2022)

MdRef said:


> Big Oil Profits Soar To *$174 Billion* As Americans Bear Higher Gas Prices.
> 
> “Americans looking for someone to blame for the pain they experience at the pump need look no further than the wealthy oil and gas company executives who choose to line their own pockets rather than lower gas prices with the billions of dollars in profit big oil rakes in month after month,” said Kyle Herrig, president of Accountable.US.
> 
> ...



I dont love paying so much at the pump.  But dont blame the oil companies - blame the policies of our gov't.   Not just drilling/leases, but how about reigning in the speculators.   The price is rising on speculation - not actual supply and demand.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 8, 2022)

joestein said:


> Talking about it and actually manufacturing it without defects in mass numbers is another thing entirely.



The 4680 battery packs that are 1mm mile packs are already starting mass production. Tesla MYs with these packs are already being produced in the Giga Texas plant.  









						Tesla announces it has produced 1 million next-gen 4680 battery cells
					

Tesla has announced that it has produced 1 million of its next-generation 4680 battery cell at its pilot factory in...




					electrek.co
				




There's still a lot more ramp up to be sure - but the future is now here for the nextgen 4680 tabless structural battery packs.


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## Mongoose (Mar 8, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> This is ignoring the fact that 20% of the population lives in multifamily housing. Whether that be apartments or condominiums. We have a long way to go to get those places to install enough charging stations to meet the needs of all the residents.


Don't be fooled.  I'm afraid the goal is to force people away from private home ownership and vehicle ownership.  This effort is to "encourage" people to move into multi-family housing and take mass transit.  What better way to accomplish this than force gas to $6 a gallon and make EV charging unavailable to the masses.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 8, 2022)

Far too many things need to change for fully autonomous EVs to take over the critical mass;


Fire departments need to invest in proper equipment to put out car battery fires.
Insurance industry needs an overhaul. If there is an accident, who is paying for it? The manufacturer, the car owner or the occupant?
The ability to mass scale mining of resources that go into battery production.
Mass scaling of the electric grid to be able to charge all these beasts. Right now, oil extraction doesn't use the same kind of electricity that charging all these cars will take.
Regulatory changes at each individual state level for autonomous driving


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## Mongoose (Mar 8, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Far too many things need to change for fully autonomous EVs to take over the critical mass;
> 
> 
> Fire departments need to invest in proper equipment to put out car battery fires.
> ...


Plus the fire codes for parking garages are not designed for EV.  This could be a massive expense.


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## CalGalTraveler (Mar 8, 2022)

Younger generation are not so tied to their cars. Our son uses Uber in a suburban area because it is cheaper than owning a vehicle.

Key question: Are there any hybrid or EV owners here that would go back to an all ICE vehicle?


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 8, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Younger generation are not so tied to their cars. Our son uses Uber in a suburban area because it is cheaper than owning a vehicle.
> 
> Key question: Are there any hybrid or EV owners here that would go back to an all ICE vehicle?



TUG generally represents the past (older generations) vs the future (younger generations).  My kids all own vehicles at present - but are much more TaaS friendly in using Uber and such as a general rule.  The younger generations don't equate freedom of choice with a personally owned vehicle like the older generations do.  This is partly why this shift will occur - the future generations have different core values than the generations of the past.  This is what will drive solutions that will resolve any outstanding gaps to convert the transportation fleet from ICE to BEV.

I don't currently own a BEV - but several of my good friends do.  We currently own two ICE vehicles.  I drive a 2018 RAM 1500 Limited pickup and my wife drives a 2017 Honda Accord EX-L.  We own both vehicles outright.  We are focused on paying off our primary mortgage this year - but will then shift gears and likely replace her Honda Accord with a Tesla M3 and/or MY within the next couple of years - all things being equal.  Pickups are still relatively new to the BEV market - and we sometimes tow using our pickup - and towing performance with BEVs is a weak point at present.  This is where the nextgen 4680 battery packs should help - but this remains to be seen as I want to see real world reports firsthand - I'm not an early adopter in this regard.


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## nomoretslt (Mar 8, 2022)

At 9:30 this morning, my local gas station was $4.09/gallon.  1 hour later as I passed by again, $4.19.


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## PigsDad (Mar 8, 2022)

MdRef said:


> Big Oil Profits Soar To *$174 Billion* As Americans Bear Higher Gas Prices.


Divide that profit number by the number of gallons of gas, diesel, and other oil products that they sell, and and even a 10 year old would be able to see it wouldn't move the needle at the pump much even if their profit was $0.  If you're so upset about oil company profits, I would suggest buying some of their stock -- they pay out most of their profits via dividends. 

Kurt


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## PigsDad (Mar 8, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Far too many things need to change for fully autonomous EVs to take over the critical mass;


Agree.  This isn't an overnight transformation, but it is coming. 20 years? 50 years?  Don't know.

Kurt


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## MdRef (Mar 8, 2022)

Today’s AAA National Average: $4.173

Current Avg.    $4.173
Yesterday Avg.    $4.065
Week Ago Avg.    $3.619
Month Ago Avg.    $3.455
Year Ago Avg.    $2.774

Today's AAA California Avg: $5.444
Gas prices seem to have gone up almost 34% in one month. If that trend continues, to our California drivers, how do you do it?


----------



## MdRef (Mar 8, 2022)

joestein said:


> I dont love paying so much at the pump.  But dont blame the oil companies - blame the policies of our gov't.   Not just drilling/leases, but how about reigning in the speculators.   The price is rising on speculation - not actual supply and demand.


That may soon change based on the news today.


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## PigsDad (Mar 8, 2022)

MdRef said:


> That may soon change based on the news today.


I certainly hope so.  If the government is restricting the import of oil (and I'm not disagreeing with that decision), then they should also be changing policy to allow / encourage more domestic production.  The big problem is that these things cannot turn on a dime;  it will take a long time to ramp up any significant production.

Kurt


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## TravelTime (Mar 8, 2022)

joestein said:


> I have two Acura MDXs - 2011 and 2020.  I think the SH-AWD is great, but otherwise I think the Acura driving technology stinks.  It seems to react when it shouldn't.  For example - a car slows down in front of me to make a right turn.  I start to pass them as they have almost completed the turn and are no longer in front of me -  the car starts to break like I am going to have a head on collision, even though I  am not close to having any sort of collision.



I think the Acura navigation system is pretty awful. However, I have not had problems with the safety features. Maybe once or twice the brake notice came on when I did not think it was warranted. I have not had the extreme effect from the braking system. I am very happy with my Acura RDX. It is 7 years old and my maintenance bills are $400 every 2 years or so just for a basic service. I used to have a BMW and maintenance costs were astronomical once the warranty wore off. When I had the BMWs, they used to include free maintenance for first 4 years, then I got an extended warranty. After that, I got stuck with bills. So I doubt I will ever have a German car again.


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## pedro47 (Mar 8, 2022)

According to some one in the oil industry they are looking at making more profits in the next 90 days then they made in the last seven years.
Folks something is wrong. Our oil from Alaska and Canada is not coming to the United States.


----------



## TravelTime (Mar 8, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> TUG generally represents the past (older generations) vs the future (younger generations).  My kids all own vehicles at present - but are much more TaaS friendly in using Uber and such as a general rule.  The younger generations don't equate freedom of choice with a personally owned vehicle like the older generations do.  This is partly why this shift will occur - the future generations have different core values than the generations of the past.  This is what will drive solutions that will resolve any outstanding gaps to convert the transportation fleet from ICE to BEV.
> 
> I don't currently own a BEV - but several of my good friends do.  We currently own two ICE vehicles.  I drive a 2018 RAM 1500 Limited pickup and my wife drives a 2017 Honda Accord EX-L.  We own both vehicles outright.  We are focused on paying off our primary mortgage this year - but will then shift gears and likely replace her Honda Accord with a Tesla M3 and/or MY within the next couple of years - all things being equal.  Pickups are still relatively new to the BEV market - and we sometimes tow using our pickup - and towing performance with BEVs is a weak point at present.  This is where the nextgen 4680 battery packs should help - but this remains to be seen as I want to see real world reports firsthand - I'm not an early adopter in this regard.



Your comments are generally true in that I notice younger people do not like driving anymore. However, Uber gets expensive outside of short drives in the city. I can’t see the majority of anyone relying on Uber unless they live close to work. I have gone 30 miles to SFO in an Uber and gotten a $50 bill one way plus 15% tip. Nowadays with inflation and gas prices higher, I imagine it is more. I just googled it and Uber is $1 to $2 per mile and that was in an article in June 2021.


----------



## Mongoose (Mar 8, 2022)

MdRef said:


> Big Oil Profits Soar To *$174 Billion* As Americans Bear Higher Gas Prices.
> 
> “Americans looking for someone to blame for the pain they experience at the pump need look no further than the wealthy oil and gas company executives who choose to line their own pockets rather than lower gas prices with the billions of dollars in profit big oil rakes in month after month,” said Kyle Herrig, president of Accountable.US.
> 
> ...


The oil companies don't determine the price of oil, at least in the US.  Its determined by the futures markets.  You have speculators that are making/losing a fortune legally gambling on this.  They are the ones to be upset with as well as the US Government for reducing our daily production by 20% in a single year.


----------



## TravelTime (Mar 8, 2022)

Mongoose said:


> The oil companies don't determine the price of oil, at least in the US.  Its determined by the futures markets.  You have speculators that are making/losing a fortune legally gambling on this.  They are the ones to be upset with as well as the US Government for reducing our daily production by 20% in a single year.



In this case, supply is also going down esp in Europe.


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 8, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> According to some one in the oil industry they are looking at making more profits in the next 90 days then they made in the last seven years.
> Folks something is wrong. Our oil from Alaska and Canada is not coming to the United States.


Yeah, it is because they bought oil at prices they were weeks or months ago and they get to sell the gas at the prices that oil is sitting at today.


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 8, 2022)

Roger830 said:


> The increase at the pump is needed now so that the gas stations have enough funds to pay for the higher priced shipment in the future. Not a scam, just business.


That would mean when oil prices drop the gas stations drop the gas price early in anticipation of not having to pay as much for future lower priced shipments. We know that always happens.


----------



## Mongoose (Mar 8, 2022)

If it makes you feel better, they are paying about $9 per gallon in the UK (when converting liters to gallons and pounds to dollars).


----------



## bogey21 (Mar 8, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Younger generation are not so tied to their cars. Our son uses Uber in a suburban area because it is cheaper than owning a vehicle.



Where are you going to find Uber drivers if the cost of gas gets outrageously high?  Or does Uber just jack up their rates?  If they do, how often do they change them?

George


----------



## TravelTime (Mar 8, 2022)

I read in the Wall Street Journal that the administration is talking to Venezuela and Saudi Arabia [redacted] about getting oil from them now. [redacted]


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Mar 8, 2022)

bogey21 said:


> Where are you going to find Uber drivers if the cost of gas gets outrageously high?  Or does Uber just jack up their rates?  If they do, how often do they change them?
> 
> George



Uber changes prices all the time. There are some Uber drivers that drive EVs too.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Mar 8, 2022)

bogey21 said:


> Where are you going to find Uber drivers if the cost of gas gets outrageously high?  Or does Uber just jack up their rates?  If they do, how often do they change them?
> 
> George



Not quickly enough with regard to higher fuel prices going up so quickly:









						Record high gas prices affecting rideshare and delivery drivers - KESQ
					

As the Russian invasion of Ukraine continues, gas prices in the country have kept reaching record highs. President Joe Biden announced Tuesday the U.S will ban all Russian imports, causing even more pain at the pump for Americans. The average price for a gallon of regular gas in Riverside County...




					kesq.com


----------



## DeniseM (Mar 8, 2022)

Folks: I know it's tough, but let's not make this political, or we will have to close the thread.


----------



## MdRef (Mar 8, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> I certainly hope so.  If the government is restricting the import of oil (and I'm not disagreeing with that decision), then they should also be changing policy to allow / encourage more domestic production.  The big problem is that these things cannot turn on a dime;  it will take a long time to ramp up any significant production.
> 
> Kurt


If the current increase in prices is based on supply purchased at far lower price per barrel than today, guess what happens when the price per gallon is based on the cost of crude today. That should happen shortly in the coming months.


----------



## MdRef (Mar 8, 2022)

Mongoose said:


> The oil companies don't determine the price of oil, at least in the US.  Its determined by the futures markets.  You have speculators that are making/losing a fortune legally gambling on this.  They are the ones to be upset with as well as the US Government for reducing our daily production by 20% in a single year.


“But oil and gas companies have shown little willingness so far to ramp up production to help reduce costs and the new report, by the government watchdog group Accountable.US, accuses them of “taking advantage of bloated prices, fleecing American families along the way” amid ongoing fallout from the Covid-19 pandemic.”

And yes, we should be ramping up our production rather than even thinking about getting crude from a terrorist coddling country like Iran. U.S. imports 1m barrels of oil from Iran despite sanctions.


----------



## Ken555 (Mar 8, 2022)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 8, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Interestingly though, the cost to produce oil hasn't changed either.

To be specific however, in order to produce more wind energy, you need to build more turbines. I would suspect the cost to scale wind energy is far more expensive than the cost to pump more oil.


----------



## Ken555 (Mar 8, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Interestingly though, the cost to produce oil hasn't changed either.
> 
> To be specific however, in order to produce more wind energy, you need to build more turbines. I would suspect the cost to scale wind energy is far more expensive than the cost to pump more oil.



From what I’ve read, the ROI has become much faster in the last few years for wind and solar. I suggest you read up on it. It’s not an immediate replacement for our oil consumption due to obvious reasons.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 8, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> From what I’ve read, the ROI has become much faster in the last few years for wind and solar. I suggest you read up on it. It’s not an immediate replacement for our oil consumption due to obvious reasons.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I am not arguing ROI, but that isn't what the meme was saying. There are also big issues with wind turbines that usually get swept under the rug.


----------



## Ken555 (Mar 8, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not arguing ROI, but that isn't what the meme was saying. There are also big issues with wind turbines that usually get swept under the rug.



If you’re restricting this dialog to the meme, then…it’s accurate. Oil costs have gone up in recent days, and wind has not. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TravelTime (Mar 8, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Interestingly though, the cost to produce oil hasn't changed either.
> 
> To be specific however, in order to produce more wind energy, you need to build more turbines. I would suspect the cost to scale wind energy is far more expensive than the cost to pump more oil.



Maybe I am confused by the meme. Is it trying to be funny about wind energy?


----------



## MdRef (Mar 8, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not arguing ROI, but that isn't what the meme was saying. There are also big issues with wind turbines that usually get swept under the rug.



True.

I suppose there's good and bad with anything.









						Advantages and Challenges of Wind Energy
					

Wind energy advantages explain why wind power is one of the fast-growing renewable energy sources in all the world.




					www.energy.gov
				





Also.

Wind doesn’t generally blow reliably, and turbines usually function at about 30% capacity or so. In the event that the weather is not going to support you, you may wind up without power or at any rate you’ll need to depend on standard electric power to take care of you during those times.

The manufacturing and installation of wind turbines require heavy upfront investments. Wind turbines and other supplies needed to make wind energy could 
be extremely costly in advance.

Erosion is another potential environmental problem that can stem from construction projects.

Severe storms and high winds can cause damage to the blades of the wind turbines.


----------



## joestein (Mar 8, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I think the Acura navigation system is pretty awful. However, I have not had problems with the safety features. Maybe once or twice the brake notice came on when I did not think it was warranted. I have not had the extreme effect from the braking system. I am very happy with my Acura RDX. It is 7 years old and my maintenance bills are $400 every 2 years or so just for a basic service. I used to have a BMW and maintenance costs were astronomical once the warranty wore off. When I had the BMWs, they used to include free maintenance for first 4 years, then I got an extended warranty. After that, I got stuck with bills. So I doubt I will ever have a German car again.



I agree about the navigation. That is what happens when it is made by a radio company (Alpine) rather than a GPS maker.    My 2011 which has navigation can't even say street names.  It is a joke.   However, my 2020 has android auto and apple car (or whatever it is called), so we just use google maps.    

My 2013 volvo C70 doesn't have a screen or a GPS and I still need to put my phone in a cradle.  Can't wait for my company to replace it.


----------



## joestein (Mar 8, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Your comments are generally true in that I notice younger people do not like driving anymore. However, Uber gets expensive outside of short drives in the city. I can’t see the majority of anyone relying on Uber unless they live close to work. I have gone 30 miles to SFO in an Uber and gotten a $50 bill one way plus 15% tip. Nowadays with inflation and gas prices higher, I imagine it is more. I just googled it and Uber is $1 to $2 per mile and that was in an article in June 2021.



We went to an affair about 15 mins from my home.  I took UBER because I wanted to drink.   It was around $10 to get there and the way back was $45.   Last time I use UBER.


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## Tia (Mar 8, 2022)

They have it figured out , how to make more $$$. Saw this in Denver if you want a ride to somewhere , it's time dependent thinking and probably software .  Like Casino's have software to figure the odds.



joestein said:


> We went to an affair about 15 mins from my home.  I took UBER because I wanted to drink.   It was around $10 to get there and the way back was $45.   Last time I use UBER.


----------



## MrockStar (Mar 8, 2022)

They know the had you for the return trip.


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## nomoretslt (Mar 8, 2022)

Uber and Lyft are good at price gouging.  My daughter’s group of friends like to go to local brew fests and wine tastings, etc.  Yeah, the Uber or Lyft is so reasonable to get there.  However, the return trip is sometimes more than triple because they KNOW they’ve gotcha!  Not right.


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## MrockStar (Mar 8, 2022)

I will call one of my kids first for the ride home if I ever need to.


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## Mongoose (Mar 8, 2022)

MdRef said:


> “But oil and gas companies have shown little willingness so far to ramp up production to help reduce costs and the new report, by the government watchdog group Accountable.US, accuses them of “taking advantage of bloated prices, fleecing American families along the way” amid ongoing fallout from the Covid-19 pandemic.”
> 
> And yes, we should be ramping up our production rather than even thinking about getting crude from a terrorist coddling country like Iran. U.S. imports 1m barrels of oil from Iran despite sanctions.


We had massive production and were energy self sufficient for the first time in 100 years until 2021.  Then in 2021, production dropped 20%, why?  Because the current government is hostile to the energy sector.  Oil sector companies all look to the Keystone XL pipeline being canceled and are no longer will to put significant capital at risk.  Can anyone blame them?


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## Mongoose (Mar 8, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Ken555 said:
> 
> 
> > Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
> ...



Wind power faces serious cost inflation and project delays as raw materials prices rise - Fastmarkets


----------



## Mongoose (Mar 8, 2022)

Wind is not all that clean, sorry.  It requires strip-mining of massive amounts of raw materials, the energy can't be stored easily, it kills massive numbers of birds, and produces massive amounts of toxic waste.  

The Big Cover Up: Wind Industry Burying Millions of Toxic Turbine Blades In Landfills – STOP THESE THINGS

How Many Birds Do Wind Turbines Really Kill? | Smart News| Smithsonian Magazine


----------



## Mongoose (Mar 8, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> From what I’ve read, the ROI has become much faster in the last few years for wind and solar. I suggest you read up on it. It’s not an immediate replacement for our oil consumption due to obvious reasons.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Not really:  "
Another important figure, the _Break Even Point,_ tells how long until your investment is paid for. To find a BEP, use:

_BEP_ = _Cturbine_ / _Pa
BEP_ = $1,300,000 / $58,079/yr
_BEP_ = 22.38 years "

How Much Does a Wind Turbine Cost? Let's Do The Calculations (windpowerengineering.com)


----------



## MrockStar (Mar 8, 2022)

Noise pollution as well. And visually not pleasant to look at. Ocean views in bays or coastal waters.


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## amycurl (Mar 8, 2022)

Heard on NPR this evening, that, adjusted for inflation, prices were still higher when it was over $4 in 2008. People have short memories. While we still haven't probably seen the top yet, I think some perspective is good to keep in mind. Paying slightly-higher-but-still-lower-than-many-countries at the pump seems to be a fairly easy and relatively painless way I can support the millions of people in Ukraine.


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## pedro47 (Mar 8, 2022)

Gas prices are going up daily at the gas stations.  How many gasoline stations received gasoline daily. Food for Thought.


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## MrockStar (Mar 8, 2022)

Its not so much consumer gasoline  prices we have to worry about, its commercial diesel that concerns us most. Everything we need to survive as American's is shipped by trucks. Get ready for large prices at supermarkets, restaurants, and drugstores near you. Some can walk, ride a bike or carpool to neiborhood  stores, but most of us have to drive to work or will very soon.


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## Mongoose (Mar 8, 2022)

amycurl said:


> Heard on NPR this evening, that, adjusted for inflation, prices were still higher when it was over $4 in 2008. People have short memories. While we still haven't probably seen the top yet, I think some perspective is good to keep in mind. Paying slightly-higher-but-still-lower-than-many-countries at the pump seems to be a fairly easy and relatively painless way I can support the millions of people in Ukraine.


Gas prices are the most expensive in US history, breaking record from 2008


Updated 4:48 pm EST Mar. 8, 2022


After rising dramatically following Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the price of gas reached a record, topping a high that had stood for nearly 14 years.


As of Tuesday morning, the average national price for a gallon of regular gasoline touched $4.17, according to AAA, the highest price ever, not accounting for inflation. That was up from $4.07 on Monday and $3.61 a week earlier.


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## Superchief (Mar 8, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I guess I will try to buy a sail car. Do you know where I can find one? Unfortunately, the blades are petroleum based so their prices will also be going up.


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## Superchief (Mar 8, 2022)

joestein said:


> We went to an affair about 15 mins from my home.  I took UBER because I wanted to drink.   It was around $10 to get there and the way back was $45.   Last time I use UBER.


Uber pricing is out of control and they are very unreliable. When in Charleston, I took Uber into town from an airport hotel and cost was about $15. When I tried to return in non-rush hour, the cost would have been $50. I found a local taxi for $22. I've also had issues finding availability. I get a $15 /month Uber credit from Amex and seldom use it.


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## Superchief (Mar 8, 2022)

I saw a report today that one of the challenges with drilling new wells on federal land is that the leases won't be released until the appropriate government agency determines their new 'environmental' cost to charge the oil companies. Alaska has plenty of oil available and already has a pipeline that can ship all that can be produced.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 8, 2022)

Superchief said:


> I saw a report today that one of the challenges with drilling new wells on federal land is that the leases won't be released until the appropriate government agency determines their new 'environmental' cost to charge the oil companies. Alaska has plenty of oil available and already has a pipeline that can ship all that can be produced.


From what I understand, a judge threw out the administrations calculation of that "climate cost", resulting in the administration to stop issuing new permits just last week.The new cost was $51 per ton where the cost calculation under the prior administration was $7 per ton. They could have gone back to the prior cost calculation, but they decided to instead suspend issuing new permits.


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## Superchief (Mar 8, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> From what I understand, a judge threw out the administrations calculation of that "climate cost", resulting in the administration to stop issuing new permits just last week.The new cost was $51 per ton where the cost calculation under the prior administration was $7 per ton. They could have gone back to the prior cost calculation, but they decided to instead suspend issuing new permits.


I guess nobody can put all the blame on the oil companies for not producing more oil. The longer US production is delayed, the more people here will suffer. I would think that the government would be doing everything in their power to get more production to lower the record oil prices, reduce inflation and food costs, and help increase shipping options. If it was hard to find truck and delivery drivers before, now it will be impossible.


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## MrockStar (Mar 8, 2022)

The Amish farmers are looking pretty smart about now. As long as they can feed their horses.


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## TravelTime (Mar 8, 2022)

joestein said:


> We went to an affair about 15 mins from my home.  I took UBER because I wanted to drink.   It was around $10 to get there and the way back was $45.   Last time I use UBER.



Wow! Why was the return trip $45?


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 8, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Wow! Why was the return trip $45?


"surge pricing"


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## TravelTime (Mar 8, 2022)

This thing about “I am willing to support Ukraine with higher gas prices” reminds me when everyone was saying “I wear a mask to protect you.” Higher gas prices disproportionately affects lower income people. They can’t work from home and their jobs are often far from their homes. In California, we have many people driving from the Central Valley into the Bay Area daily for many different jobs. This is an unfair burden. I personally think if we want to support Ukraine with our wallets then everyone who is middle class and above should pay a progressive Ukraine tax. Then we will see how people really feel. I know this is an exaggeration but hopefully some folks understand what I really mean.


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 8, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> This thing about “I am willing to support Ukraine with higher gas prices” reminds me when everyone was saying “I wear a mask to protect you.” Higher gas prices disproportionately affect lower income people. They can’t work from home and their jobs are often far from their homes. In California, we have many people driving from the Central Valley into the Bay Area daily for many different jobs. This is an unfair burden. I personally think if we want to support Ukraine with our wallets then everyone who is middle class and above should pay a progressive Ukraine tax. Then we will see how people really feel. I know this is an exaggeration but hopefully some folks understand what I really mean.


Generally people who project with things like this aren't impacted by the actual cost at all. There are people who say they are okay with green energy, but they live in an urban area and don't drive. So the price of gas at the pump is meaningless. Look at certain media and celebrities. They are all out there saying one thing or another, but the impact of it will never hit them in any meaningful way. Those that say they are okay paying higher prices at the pump to help Ukraine are the people that can afford to pay more at the pump, but they don't seem to care about the many others that can't.


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## jabberwocky (Mar 8, 2022)

I used to consistently use Uber when traveling. Now I find it unreliable both in availability and pricing.

Case 1. Tried to get an Uber twice from Toronto airport to downtown. Uber cancelled both requests after about five minutes due to no available drivers. There was an UberXL I could have called - but they wanted $105 for the trip. I ended up walking over to the limo stand and got a great driver there for a flat rate $68 including tip.

Case 2. Downtown Toronto again. I left the hotel at 7:30 am. Destination was 2.5 km. Uber cost $10.52. At 5 pm was going to head back to the hotel and Uber had surged to $32. I walked back.


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## MrockStar (Mar 8, 2022)

Walking is healthier, not always practical.


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## pedro47 (Mar 9, 2022)

In chess is still checkmate?


----------



## Brett (Mar 9, 2022)

“Gas prices are so high, this morning, parents were like: ‘All right, kids, we’re Amish now. Let’s get in the buggy — we’re taking the horse to school.’” — JIMMY FALLON

“Gas prices are so high, Americans are just filling their cars with Red Bull and hoping for the best.” — JIMMY FALLON

“But on the bright side, this is the perfect excuse to pretend you’re going to get back on the bike you bought mid-pandemic and rode twice.” — JAMES CORDEN

 the Indy 500 was just changed to the Indy 5.” — JIMMY FALLON


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## Roger830 (Mar 9, 2022)

Brett said:


> “Gas prices are so high, this morning, parents were like: ‘All right, kids, we’re Amish now. Let’s get in the buggy — we’re taking the horse to school.’” — JIMMY FALLON
> 
> “Gas prices are so high, Americans are just filling their cars with Red Bull and hoping for the best.” — JIMMY FALLON
> 
> ...



It's too bad that they replaced Leno with dull Fallon. He hasn't been funny since he played with Trump's hair.

Stephen Colbert was funny, he said that Americans should be willing to endure higher gas prices. Too bad everybody doesn't earn $16 million per year.


----------



## Talent312 (Mar 9, 2022)

I refer Stephen Colbert to Fallon.
Colbert is a bit caustic, but at least he's a brighter bulb.
If I'm in the mood for silliness, I'll turn to Fallon.

.


----------



## joestein (Mar 9, 2022)

amycurl said:


> Heard on NPR this evening, that, adjusted for inflation, prices were still higher when it was over $4 in 2008. People have short memories. While we still haven't probably seen the top yet, I think some perspective is good to keep in mind. Paying slightly-higher-but-still-lower-than-many-countries at the pump seems to be a fairly easy and relatively painless way I can support the millions of people in Ukraine.



I fully support Ukraine.   However, the correlation between supporting Ukraine and Gas prices is a thin one.  Prices were already well risen before Ukraine.    The administration's policies have set the tone.


----------



## joestein (Mar 9, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> Gas prices are going up daily at the gas stations.  How many gasoline stations received gasoline daily. Food for Thought.




It is all speculation.   They can change the regs on oil futures to help reduce the cost.   Make oil traders actually own what they trade, rather than just a small percentage.   However, like most industries - they own the politicians.   Politicians don't care about people - only about getting paid or reelected.


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 9, 2022)

Roger830 said:


> It's too bad that they replaced Leno with dull Fallon. He hasn't been funny since he played with Trump's hair.
> 
> Stephen Colbert was funny, he said that Americans should be willing to endure higher gas prices. Too bad everybody doesn't earn $16 million per year.





Talent312 said:


> I refer Stephen Colbert to Fallon.
> Colbert is a bit caustic, but at least he's a brighter bulb.
> If I'm in the mood for silliness, I'll turn to Fallon.



Late night television hosts have become more of a political hatchet jobs than actual comedy. Fallon was the last to resist pulling politics so heavily into his show, but was mainly forced to by senior management because his poor ratings.  respect him more for *trying* to keep politics out of his show. Colbert on the other hand, well, his previous "comedy" show was based on political commentary. I respect him as a "comedian" the least. But I guess there is a close ties between Colbert and Kimmel. None of them overall are really all that funny. Comedy has taken a dramatic fall.


----------



## joestein (Mar 9, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Wow! Why was the return trip $45?



I always thought because it was around midnight instead of early evening.   I also think there is a cost transparency issue on UBER.  I remember having trouble figuring out the cost of the ride until after ordered.  Of course it might be that I am not using the app correctly.


----------



## joestein (Mar 9, 2022)

Talent312 said:


> I refer Stephen Colbert to Fallon.
> Colbert is a bit caustic, but at least he's a brighter bulb.
> If I'm in the mood for silliness, I'll turn to Fallon.
> 
> .




At least Fallon tries to keep his show light.  It is supposed to a late night comedy show to fall to sleep with.     Colbert and Kimmel insert way too much politics.   It is the last thing I want to see at 11:30pm if I am still up.

I will never forget Colbert crying with a bottle of scotch live on his 2016 election special.    He couldn't handle that his candidate lost.  Absolutely zero professionalism.


----------



## Icc5 (Mar 9, 2022)

I understand the higher gas prices and pay what we have to.  What I never understand is how we started being charged the higher prices way before the gas stations were paying higher for their gas supplies.  I feel as if we were taken advantage of by paying more before the supply costs were raised.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Mar 9, 2022)

Let's not forget about supply and demand. There is a big assumption on this thread that the oil and gas industry has no options to increase production.

If the U.S. were energy independent in 2020 without Keystone pipeline or other additional capital investments. why can't the US do it again? in addition, we heard from at least one person on this thread that higher prices are incenting his relative to return to work in the Permian Basin indicating that economic forces are already at work to increase production.

Higher prices and the desired to take share from the lost Russian oil at these high prices will drive the producers and frackers to fill this demand to add share from competitors and reap profit to meet Wall St. expectations.  History has shown that they cannot contain themselves and the market pendulum swings.

For the producers to do otherwise is price fixing along the lines of the Middle Eastern cartels. But even those cartels do not work perfectly when there are profits to be made.


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## MdRef (Mar 9, 2022)

Icc5 said:


> I understand the higher gas prices and pay what we have to.  What I never understand is how we started being charged the higher prices way before the gas stations were paying higher for their gas supplies.  I feel as if we were taken advantage of by paying more before the supply costs were raised.


Wait till you pay for that higher crude. Look out summer driving.


----------



## joestein (Mar 9, 2022)

Icc5 said:


> I understand the higher gas prices and pay what we have to.  What I never understand is how we started being charged the higher prices way before the gas stations were paying higher for their gas supplies.  I feel as if we were taken advantage of by paying more before the supply costs were raised.



Once again - due to speculation in the market.   Our Gov't could change the rules if they wished - but they dont wish to.

How does oil speculation raise gas prices? | HowStuffWorks


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Mar 9, 2022)

FWIW...We are getting out the popcorn with the Amish. Solar/EV, work at home so no commute. We sip gas with our remaining ICE vehicles because we don't drive those much. Inflation in food etc will be more than offset from the higher prices on oil stocks which were bought during low periods as a hedge.

Take control or be controlled.  Almost 50 years after the 70's oil crisis. Have we not learned anything?


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Mar 9, 2022)

nomoretslt said:


> Uber and Lyft are good at price gouging.  My daughter’s group of friends like to go to local brew fests and wine tastings, etc.  Yeah, the Uber or Lyft is so reasonable to get there.  However, the return trip is sometimes more than triple because they KNOW they’ve gotcha!  Not right.



I can recall using Uber in Myrtle Beach a few years back when we got caught in an unexpected rainstorm that didn't abate quickly - so we Uber'd back to our hotel (pre-timeshare ownership days).  I remember talking with the Uber driver about her experiences in Myrtle Beach and how she almost always worked late nights over the weekend days because everyone was out getting plastered and would Uber back to their hotels - at much higher rates - and the tips would be obscene since everyone was plastered.


----------



## Superchief (Mar 9, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Let's not forget about supply and demand. There is a big assumption on this thread that the oil and gas industry has no options to increase production.
> 
> If the U.S. were energy independent in 2020 without Keystone pipeline or other additional capital investments. why can't the US do it again? in addition, we heard from at least one person on this thread that higher prices are incenting his relative to return to work in the Permian Basin indicating that economic forces are already at work to increase production.
> 
> ...


There are a few things that are limiting the oil companies from producing more oil in the US. There are lease restrictions on federal land, and there are high costs associated with exploration and drilling new wells. Oil companies are reluctant to spend millions on new production because there is a long payback period and this administration has stated that there should be no fossil fuel by 2050. Oil companies are making excessive profits right now, but they are probably trying to make as much now while they can.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Mar 9, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> From what I understand, a judge threw out the administrations calculation of that "climate cost", resulting in the administration to stop issuing new permits just last week.The new cost was $51 per ton where the cost calculation under the prior administration was $7 per ton. They could have gone back to the prior cost calculation, but they decided to instead suspend issuing new permits.



To be fair - it was around $50 under the previous democrat administration prior to being lowered to $7 by the republican administration.  The current administration was simply returning it to the prior norm.  I realize this is a contentious issue.  The higher price is essentially a form of carbon tax - a global estimate vs a US only estimate is the difference in the price modeling.  Since the carbon we produce affects everyone globally...


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Mar 9, 2022)

Superchief said:


> There are a few things that are limiting the oil companies from producing more oil in the US. There are lease restrictions on federal land, and there are high costs associated with exploration and drilling new wells. Oil companies are reluctant to spend millions on new production because there is a long payback period and this administration has stated that there should be no fossil fuel by 2050. Oil companies are making excessive profits right now, but they are probably trying to make as much now while they can.



But according to posters on this thread we were already energy independent in 2020 with existing capital infrastructure.


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 9, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> But we were already energy independent in 2020 with existing capital infrastructure.


The problem is that many fracking outfits collapsed along with the oil market a few years ago. That has to be built back up again.


----------



## Mongoose (Mar 9, 2022)

joestein said:


> We went to an affair about 15 mins from my home.  I took UBER because I wanted to drink.   It was around $10 to get there and the way back was $45.   Last time I use UBER.


A lot cheaper than drinking and driving!  Good for you!


----------



## pedro47 (Mar 9, 2022)

MrockStar said:


> The Amish farmers are looking pretty smart about now. As long as they can feed their horses.


The Amish farmers, I feel grow their own grain to feed their horses.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Mar 9, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> The problem is that many fracking outfits collapsed along with the oil market a few years ago. That has to be built back up again.



Good point. There will be delays as supply and demand adjust. My understanding of the fracking (and possibly some drilling markets) are fragmented and not owned by big oil so this will increase the odds of investors and entrepreneurs jump in to reap profit.


----------



## Mongoose (Mar 9, 2022)

Icc5 said:


> I understand the higher gas prices and pay what we have to.  What I never understand is how we started being charged the higher prices way before the gas stations were paying higher for their gas supplies.  I feel as if we were taken advantage of by paying more before the supply costs were raised.


Gas stations only make about 1.4% profit on fuel.  They make their profit in a $2 bottle of soda.  Again, the jump in pricing is based on the commodities markets.  Fuel being stored in a tank is not much different than gold being stored in a vault.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Mar 9, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> But according to posters on this thread we were already energy independent in 2020 with existing capital infrastructure.



I've posted this on other related threads - but the US has never been energy independent in point of fact.  I'm not going to go dig up the other posts - but we consume roughly 19mm BPD of product - at most we have produced 12mm BPD here in the US - and at least 33% of that is exported (meaning we only ever produced 8mm BPD that stayed in country - out of nearly 20mm BPD of consumption across all forms of petroleum).  Don't believe the hype - it's simply not true when you look at the actual data.  Lastly, we are nearly back to producing the same output here the US (12mm BPD) that we produced pre-pandemic.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 9, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> But according to posters on this thread we were already energy independent in 2020 with existing capital infrastructure.





dioxide45 said:


> The problem is that many fracking outfits collapsed along with the oil market a few years ago. That has to be built back up again.



Let me give a real example - from personal experience. The names have been changed, to protect the guilty.

In the mid 2000's, Clip Joint Oil bid peanuts on some inaccessible Federal lease acreage under a Federal lake. Not surprisingly, they got their bid. This was in South Texas. Clip Joint picked up over 6,000 acres under the lake. Their goal was to sell it to Sucker Oil company. The only problem was that the _Federales_ banned drilling on any Federal property on or near said lake. No access. However, you could lease minerals next to the lake and drill there. Only they had already been leased by bigger oil companies. Only one site remained, a little but perfect site that could access all 6,000 acres. Guess who controlled that site. . . 

After several years of negotiation, a deal was struck between Clip Joint, Sucker Oil, and RSE. A well was drilled and fracked, and is still producing today. Sucker Oil had many more leases elsewhere and drilled them, as they would be more profitable. Then the price of oil collapsed and Sucker couldn't produce their way out of their debt. Sucker went bankrupt. The banks now own Sucker Oil, and they don't want to invest much money in drilling. The only drilling is based on existing cash flow, which isn't high.

So , , . How many well will Sucker Oil drill? Will the banks risk more money to drill after taking a bath a few years ago? You tell me. Of course, The prices are high now, but tomorrow? if you can't get a drilling permit under the lake, it doesn't really matter. . .

Welcome to the world of oil and gas. . .


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## dioxide45 (Mar 9, 2022)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Let me give a real example - from personal experience. The names have been changed, to protect the guilty.
> 
> In the mid 2000's, Clip Joint Oil bid peanuts on some inaccessible Federal lease acreage under a Federal lake. Not surprisingly, they got their bid. This was in South Texas. Clip Joint picked up over 6,000 acres under the lake. Their goal was to sell it to Sucker Oil company. The only problem was that the _Federales_ banned drilling on any Federal property on or near said lake. No access. However, you could lease minerals next to the lake and drill there. Only they had already been leased by bigger oil companies. Only one site remained, a little but perfect site that could access all 6,000 acres. Guess who controlled that site. . .
> 
> ...


I guess my question is, why do the banks still own Sucker Oil? They aren't really in the oil business. They don't foreclose on houses to keep them on the books, they turn around and unload them.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 9, 2022)

A chapter 11 cramdown bankruptcy. The bank holds the controlling equity interest in Sucker. If they continue to hold it, they don't have to declare the loss. (After all, it's value might go up). Sucker Oil is now a private company, not publicly traded.

Much of the capital lend was not by standard banks, but by investment banks, like Goldman Sachs. Different rules.


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## CalGalTraveler (Mar 9, 2022)

Someone (or the banks) own Sucker Oil plots and will find ways to capitalize on them. Otherwise they are worthless albatrosses that sit on the books which does no one any good.

Banks are a poor source of startup funding. There are historic amounts of money out there in PE, Venture, and Limited Partners seeking to get more on their money than 1%. the dip in stocks will also drive a trend seeking returns with associated risk.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 9, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Someone (or the banks) own Sucker Oil plots and will find ways to capitalize on them. Otherwise they are worthless albatrosses that sit on the books which does no one any good.
> 
> Banks are a poor source of startup funding. There are historic amounts of money out there in PE, Venture, and Limited Partners seeking to get more on their money than 1%. the dip in stocks will also drive a trend seeking returns with associated risk.


They all behave like investment banks. Lots of them lost money by lending to Oil and Gas drillers after 2014. How big, after the previous losses, is the appetite for speculative oil and gas drilling now? 

Deposit banks and investment banks are two different animals, even if they are both called banks.


----------



## bogey21 (Mar 9, 2022)

Superchief said:


> There are a few things that are limiting the oil companies from producing more oil in the US. There are lease restrictions on federal land, and there are high costs associated with exploration and drilling new wells. Oil companies are reluctant to spend millions on new production because there is a long payback period and this administration has stated that there should be no fossil fuel by 2050. Oil companies are making excessive profits right now, but they are probably trying to make as much now while they can.


This may be stale info but my Son works fracking wells.  He told me that many drillers were only drilling enough to cover their debt service and lease obligations.  He said they were afraid to spend the money on more wells fearing that they might not be allowed to produce enough to justify their cost of drilling...

George


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## CalGalTraveler (Mar 9, 2022)

Perhaps appetite may be dampened similar to housing after 2008. However that was eventually overcome once housing demand skyrocketed. Same will go for oil.  This too shall eventually pass. Supply and demand will prevail however it is not instant. That's why taking control of what you can (lower energy usage, buy more efficient energy e.g. LEDs, hybrid/EVs/H2, solar etc). and hedging bets e.g. buying oil stocks when low, is important to ride out market inefficiencies.


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## MrockStar (Mar 9, 2022)

Cash for clunkers rebooted? Could it happen again for EV adoption?


----------



## Talent312 (Mar 9, 2022)

Just topped up at 4.22, about 0.50 higher than last week.
BTW, gas is running about 6.50/gal. in Amsterdam (CNN).
I'd say we have it pretty easy.
If I have to give up a few trips to the steakhouse, so be it.
.

.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 9, 2022)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> They all behave like investment banks. Lots of them lost money by lending to Oil and Gas drillers after 2014. How big, after the previous losses, is the appetite for speculative oil and gas drilling now?
> 
> Deposit banks and investment banks are two different animals, even if they are both called banks.



Couple these concerns with the very real issue of peak oil due to fleet electrification that has growing momentum and banks aren’t going to fund the leases for speculative oil drilling. Too much risk with decreasing guarantee of any long term return now. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Superchief (Mar 9, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Perhaps appetite may be dampened similar to housing after 2008. However that was eventually overcome once housing demand skyrocketed. Same will go for oil.  This too shall eventually pass. Supply and demand will prevail however it is not instant. That's why taking control of what you can (lower energy usage, buy more efficient energy e.g. LEDs, hybrid/EVs/H2, solar etc). and hedging bets e.g. buying oil stocks when low, is important to ride out market inefficiencies.


I'm glad I've always bought fuel efficient cars  because I don't like wasting money on gas and am conscious of the pollution we cause. We currently have an Acura TLX with 25-35 MPG and Hyundai Santa Fe UV with 20-25. Both are 4 cyl but have good acceleration and handling. We will likely buy a Santa Fe hybrid in 1-2 yr because I'm not ready for an electric car here in Ohio, and my trees will convert enough CO2 to oxygen to offset the gas we use. These may be the last cars that we own because they should last another 10-20 yr. 

I never understood why people buy the gas hogs because gas price have always gone back up after they've gone down.


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## CalGalTraveler (Mar 9, 2022)

@Superchief Sounds like a good plan. We may opt for a hybrid for our next car if the range doesn't improve on EVs.


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## Superchief (Mar 9, 2022)

What is happening currently in Ukraine is barbaric. Hospitals with mothers and children and evacuation convoys are being bombed and shelled. These are atrocious war crimes. The only thing stopping Europe and the US from doing something is the threat of nuclear war. This is why I am appalled that we would consider negotiating with Iran regarding their nuclear capabilities in exchange for oil rather than encouraging domestic production increases. There are too many unpredictable world powers that possess nuclear power, and Iran is more dangerous than any of them. 

Given the world situation, I would not want to rely on our enemies for any energy sources. Fossil fuels will be around for a long time, so we need to increase production as other sources are being developed. All of our military primarily relies on fossil fuels, as do global airlines. The expectation that fossil fuels can be eliminated by 2050 is totally unrealistic. I've learned form experience that you don't eliminate current technology that works until the new technology is operational and broadly (and affordably) available. Let's put priority back on US and Canadian oil exploration and production. It is produced a lot more cleanly here than in Russia, Venezuela, and OPEC countries.


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## geist1223 (Mar 9, 2022)

I have never understood why we export so much Oil. Also when people are quoting the Price of Oil most of this is on future Contracts with Delivery in 90 to 120 days. So if the price goes up somebody makes money. Ofmthe price goes down somebody is left holding the bag.


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## dannybaker (Mar 9, 2022)

I thought this was interesting USA CONSUMPTION 

CharacteristicDemand in billion gallons*2020**127.71*2019146.292018145.242017144.58


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## bluehende (Mar 9, 2022)

Mongoose said:


> The oil companies don't determine the price of oil, at least in the US.  Its determined by the futures markets.  You have speculators that are making/losing a fortune legally gambling on this.  They are the ones to be upset with as well as the US Government for reducing our daily production by 20% in a single year.


Production is up from a year ago.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 9, 2022)

Superchief said:


> I'm glad I've always bought fuel efficient cars  because I don't like wasting money on gas and am conscious of the pollution we cause. We currently have an Acura TLX with 25-35 MPG and Hyundai Santa Fe UV with 20-25. Both are 4 cyl but have good acceleration and handling. We will likely buy a Santa Fe hybrid in 1-2 yr because I'm not ready for an electric car here in Ohio, and my trees will convert enough CO2 to oxygen to offset the gas we use. These may be the last cars that we own because they should last another 10-20 yr.
> 
> I never understood why people buy the gas hogs because gas price have always gone back up after they've gone down.



Depends on your needs for a larger vehicle.  Most folks I know who own SUVs or pickups don't really have a demonstrated need.  For us, we have a large yard and do a lot of our own tree trimming  (22 mature trees on our property) and leaf collection and take it all to a local yard refuse dump ourselves.  This would be very difficult without a pickup truck.  We also tow a 20' bowrider boat during summer months - often borrowing a close friend's boat when it's not in use.  We're actually preparing to purchase a larger 25' bowrider together (joint ownership) which is over 5000lbs dry towing weight - so we require a vehicle capable of towing this kind of weight, including four people in the seats which takes the GVWR up to close to 6k pounds.  We often tow to some locations that are two hours away - so having a purpose built vehicle that can tow without much trouble is important.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 9, 2022)

geist1223 said:


> I have never understood why we export so much Oil. Also when people are quoting the Price of Oil most of this is on future Contracts with Delivery in 90 to 120 days. So if the price goes up somebody makes money. Ofmthe price goes down somebody is left holding the bag.



We export because we can - because we don't mandate by fiat that all oil produced in the US must be consumed in the US.  We have free markets for good reason.  It's my general understanding that we primarily export refined fuels (as opposed to crude) because we have a lot of refining capacity here in the US overall.


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## MrockStar (Mar 9, 2022)

We have the worlds largest reserves of natural gas CNG is exported because of this.


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## CalGalTraveler (Mar 9, 2022)

Superchief said:


> Let's put priority back on US and Canadian oil exploration and production. It is produced a lot more cleanly here than in Russia, Venezuela, and OPEC countries.



Agree for certain locations, however not everywhere. Anyone who has seen the eyesore rigs off the Long Beach shore, or experienced oil spills on the gulf may disagree.


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## nomoretslt (Mar 9, 2022)

Windpower rigs are also eyesores, are extremely noisy (ask anyone who lives close to one) and are bird killers.

The last “cheap” local gas station:  9:30 am...$3.99 per gallon.  10:30 a.m,....$4.19.  Way to go!  I see many of the working poor in this area going back on government assistance.  Why bother to work?  Too expensive to get to your job,  I don’t think they are willing too pay more to ..... well,  never mind.


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## Superchief (Mar 9, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Agree for certain locations, however not everywhere. Anyone who has seen the eyesore rigs off the Long Beach shore, or experienced oil spills on the gulf may disagree.


Most of the new lease requests on federal lands are in isolated areas that nobody lives near.


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## clifffaith (Mar 9, 2022)

clifffaith said:


> We have a 90 minute round trip each day for Cliff’s radiation treatments so we fill up twice a week right now. Monday gas in our San Juan Capistrano adjacent area was $4.98. We filled up today at $5.08.



Today we paid $5.52 at our local Mobil station, and saw $6.15 at a Chevron about four blocks away. I expect to see it higher every time we fill up for the foreseeable future. BTW, I never pumped gas in my life before Cliff got sick and I figured he needed to teach me how before he started getting chemo and radiation.


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## Mongoose (Mar 9, 2022)

clifffaith said:


> Today we paid $5.52 at our local Mobil station, and saw $6.15 at a Chevron about four blocks away. I expect to see it higher every time we fill up for the foreseeable future. BTW, I never pumped gas in my life before Cliff got sick and I figured he needed to teach me how before he started getting chemo and radiation.


Still $3.89 in CO.


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## slip (Mar 9, 2022)

I just paid $5.63 a gallon on Molokai today. Ever since I moved to Hawaii, I started filling up when my tank got to half. I really don't put a lot of miles on and it usually takes me 2 weeks to get down to a half a tank.


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## MrockStar (Mar 9, 2022)

Ouch.


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## TUGBrian (Mar 9, 2022)

4.60 for regular, 5.60 for diesel  (up almost 50 cents today alone) driving home tonight.


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## jabberwocky (Mar 9, 2022)

We’re paying the equivalent of $5.19 for gas and I filled our diesel car yesterday for $5.47/gallon.


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## Ken555 (Mar 9, 2022)

Paid $5.80 for premium today at a no name station. Across the street Chevron was charging $6.30. Costco in the area was $5.50 (but I didn’t want to wait the 30+ min in line).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45 (Mar 9, 2022)

It was $4.39 on our way out today. I only saw one station that was still $4.19.


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## MrockStar (Mar 9, 2022)

Ouch, probably going to be 7.00 $ by the summer vacation season. Guess I will just stay at our cottage and float out on the boat with my grandkids. Lots of bike riding and kayaking going to happen this summer.


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## emeryjre (Mar 9, 2022)

The only short term solution is OPEC plus. 

in interviews with various oil CEOs on CNBC, the fastest domestic increases will be gotten from the Permian Basin in Texas and anybody that has operations there was stepping up ASAP.   But still would be several months for increased output.

Turning leases into output.  Minimum 12 months with no supply chain hitches or environmental group challenges.

OPEC plus. An announcement of increased output would drop prices right now, as the oil in storage would be replaced at a lower cost.

UAE representative saying it would ask for an increase in output dropped futures price by 8 to 10 dollars today. 

If anybody has any pull with the Saudi Arabian people in charge, please ask them to step up.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 9, 2022)

emeryjre said:


> If anybody has any pull with the Saudi Arabian people in charge, please ask them to step up.


I'll pull some strings...


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## Superchief (Mar 9, 2022)

emeryjre said:


> The only short term solution is OPEC plus.
> 
> in interviews with various oil CEOs on CNBC, the fastest domestic increases will be gotten from the Permian Basin in Texas and anybody that has operations there was stepping up ASAP.   But still would be several months for increased output.
> 
> ...


What about Alaska?


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## emeryjre (Mar 9, 2022)

Superchief said:


> What about Alaska?


Nobody mentioned it.  

I have not followed the production efforts or drilling in that part of the US.

What I do see is a lot of environmental challenges to any new drilling whenever drilling or mining is talked about in Alaska.


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## Superchief (Mar 9, 2022)

emeryjre said:


> Nobody mentioned it.  I have not followed the production efforts or drilling in that part of the US.


I heard a report that said production there was being restricted due to delays for permits. They didn't provide details but there is lots of oil and a pipeline already there so it would seem to be a priority to get the production going as quickly as possible.


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## Ken555 (Mar 9, 2022)

Superchief said:


> I heard a report that said production there was being restricted due to delays for permits. They didn't provide details but there is lots of oil and a pipeline already there so it would seem to be a priority to get the production going as quickly as possible.



Why am I reading that there were hundreds of approved permits that are not being utilized?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## emeryjre (Mar 9, 2022)

Superchief said:


> I heard a report that said production there was being restricted due to delays for permits. They didn't provide details but there is lots of oil and a pipeline already there so it would seem to be a priority to get the production going as quickly as possible.


Was just reading about Alaska.  The challenges to every attempt to drill are based on environmental challenges by various groups opposed to drilling. That is a quick take.
Seems to be plenty of proven reserves.


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## geekette (Mar 10, 2022)

clifffaith said:


> Today we paid $5.52 at our local Mobil station, and saw $6.15 at a Chevron about four blocks away. I expect to see it higher every time we fill up for the foreseeable future. BTW, I never pumped gas in my life before Cliff got sick and I figured he needed to teach me how before he started getting chemo and radiation.


?  Wow.   full service was gone before I ever had my license.   I had a boyfriend that would do it, freeing me up to clean the windshield and dispose of trash.

meanwhile, those are scary high prices.   Location matters, 3.99 was best I saw yesterday.


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## bogey21 (Mar 10, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Why am I reading that there were hundreds of approved permits that are not being utilized?


The way I understand it is that oil companies get leases, permits, etc. that cover relatively large areas then figure out which of them is the best place to drill a well.  If they didn't control the leases, permits, etc surrounding where they have productive wells, someone else would get them and tap into their oil field.  Thus they don't drill everywhere they have leases, permits, etc...

George


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## Mongoose (Mar 10, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Why am I reading that there were hundreds of approved permits that are not being utilized?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Because those are undesirable locations where the geology is not good for exploration.


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## "Roger" (Mar 10, 2022)

I am a little reluctant to post this link because I fully understand people are hurting, but I found this piece interesting...









						Gas prices are way up, but real cost of driving a mile was higher for most of the past century
					

Prices are rising fast and inflation is squeezing family budgets, but a little perspective is in order




					www.marketwatch.com
				




Gasoline cost $1.25 a gallon back in 1980, but the average worker was only making $6.75 an hour. It took the typical worker about 11 minutes to earn enough to buy a gallon of gas. Now with gas costing $4.17 a gallon, it takes a typical worker making $26.94 an hour just over nine minutes to earn enough to buy a gallon.​​And that gallon of gas takes you a lot further, which is what you really should care about when you fill up your tank...​​In 1980, gas mileage was so awful that driving a mile cost 30 cents for gas (in today’s dollars). Today — if your vehicle gets the national average of about 23 miles per gallon — driving a mile costs about 16 cents for the gas.​


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## Mongoose (Mar 10, 2022)

"Roger" said:


> I am a little reluctant to post this link because I fully understand people are hurting, but I found this piece interesting...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good post.  I think the point is that the severity of these increases could have been blunted with effective energy and foreign policies.


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## TravelTime (Mar 10, 2022)

Talent312 said:


> Just topped up at 4.22, about 0.50 higher than last week.
> BTW, gas is running about 6.50/gal. in Amsterdam (CNN).
> I'd say we have it pretty easy.
> If I have to give up a few trips to the steakhouse, so be it.
> ...



It is not so easy in CA. I haven’t looked this week yet but last week I saw prices close to or higher than Amsterdam.


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## Superchief (Mar 10, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Why am I reading that there were hundreds of approved permits that are not being utilized?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The way I saw it explained is that there is a permit to explore, and a separate permit to drill. As Dioxide posted earlier, the drilling permits were being delayed by the regulators trying to decide what the environmental impact  cost would be charged. The oil industry also has to deal with two federal departments: Energy and Land Management. Both of their heads are clearly anti fossil fuel. The head of the Energy department didn't even know how much oil is used per day in the US.


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## MrockStar (Mar 10, 2022)

This could be a good problem, encouraging Walking, biking, carpooling, riding public transportation and a return to smaller fuel-efficient cars instead of hulking large SUV's and Pickup trucks. PS iam not condoning bad policy or purposely trying to raise energy prices. I like the Free market to set those rates.


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## emeryjre (Mar 10, 2022)

We will survive.  It will result in greater lifestyle changes for lower income individuals and families.  

Here is an article from the Wall Street Journal on raising output.  I know it is popular to attack government policies for our problems.  This article has some interesting perspectives about our current policies.  It is not behind a paywall









						Frackers Say Bottlenecks Impede Output Boost as Oil Prices Soar
					

Shale companies say they are trying to help to fill a gap in global oil supplies after Russia’s attack on Ukraine, but wary investors and supply-chain issues are crimping output.




					www.wsj.com


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## bizaro86 (Mar 10, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> This would probably be difficult since the Venezuelan crude has very different characteristics and refining requirements than the Russian variety.
> 
> Russian oil usually has an API > 30 (Urals is the dominant type) with a sulfur content of about 1.5%.  Venezuelan crude is quite a bit heavier with an API of around 15-16 (Merey grades - by far the largest proportion of Venezuelan production) and has a sulfur content of around 2.5%.  It would be tough to substitute one type for another.
> 
> ...



I agree with your comments on Keystone XL.

A few quick comments that may be of interest. Merey is a blend of Orinoco heavy and Santa Barbara Light, both produced in Venezuela. They blend them as the Orinoco wouldn't flow otherwise. So the 15 degree API is an average of the two.

Similarly, the 20 degree API you mentioned is WCS blend. That is oil sands crude (api as low as 8, which is a hockey puck at room temperature) blended with light ends, generally condensate, to get the API up to 20.

We have to blend our heavy to a lighter blend here than the Venezuelans do, because ambient temperatures in Northern Alberta are much colder than Venezuela, and viscosity goes up as temperature drops.


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## MrockStar (Mar 10, 2022)

Thank you Canada for sending your oil here to America. Sorry its now by rail car or tanker truck  environmental dirtier than pipelines but we really appreciate it .


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## Ken555 (Mar 10, 2022)

MrockStar said:


> Thank you Canada for sending your oil here to America. Sorry its now by rail car or tanker truck environmental dirtier than pipelines but we really appreciate it .



Isn’t the keystone pipeline still in use to the Midwest? What they didn’t build is the connection to Nebraska and to the gulf so Canada could export their oil to other countries. I’m not an expert on this, nor do I pretend to be, so correct me if I’m wrong… but from what I read we’ve had the keystone pipeline for ~12 years and it delivers oil from Alberta to Illinois and Texas refineries. 









						Keystone Pipeline - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## MrockStar (Mar 10, 2022)

If it was operational why did they cancel it? And why where the Canadians so upset about it.


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## Ken555 (Mar 10, 2022)

MrockStar said:


> If it was operational why did they cancel it? And why where the Canadians so upset about it.



Canadians were going to make a lot of money with the pipeline, as it lowered cost to ship to other countries. Were you under the assumption that the pipeline would only bring Canadian oil to the US?

Also, only the latest phases were canceled. The pipeline has been operational for a long time.


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## bizaro86 (Mar 10, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Isn’t the keystone pipeline still in use to the Midwest? What they didn’t build is the connection to Nebraska and to the gulf so Canada could export their oil to other countries. I’m not an expert on this, nor do I pretend to be, so correct me if I’m wrong… but from what I read we’ve had the keystone pipeline for ~12 years and it delivers oil from Alberta to Illinois and Texas refineries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Keystone pipeline has been in operation for a long time. 

The Keystone XL pipeline was cancelled when its permit got pulled. It would have delivered a great deal of Canadian crude to the Midwest.



Ken555 said:


> Canadians were going to make a lot of money with the pipeline, as it lowered cost to ship to other countries. Were you under the assumption that the pipeline would only bring Canadian oil to the US?
> 
> Also, only the latest phases were canceled. The pipeline has been operational for a long time.



The part that moved oil from the Midwest to the gulf coast got built. It didn't require a presidential permit as it was all internal to the US. Canadian companies have been using it to ship oil out of gulf coast ports occasionally, but most of the oil transported is refined in the gulf coast states.

Keystone XL only was planned to go as far as Steele City, Nebraska. It wouldn't have expanded export capacity through the gulf coast, so it isn't likely that much of it would be exported as crude. It probably would have lowered the cost of heavy oil in PADD 2 (roughly the midwest) which probably brings down gasoline prices in that area as many PADD 2 refineries have added cokers to handle Canadian heavy. 

Transmountain is still getting built (fingers crossed, as costs have escalated quite a bit) so pretty soon that oil will flow to the Pacific instead. That is better for Canada, as we would have multiple options to sell it to (California, Asia, etc) vs the US Midwest, where the refiners have a monopsony on Canadian crude. It is very likely Transmountain will raise the price of gasoline in the US Midwest as refineries there will have more competition to buy Canadian oil.


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## jabberwocky (Mar 10, 2022)

bizaro86 said:


> I agree with your comments on Keystone XL.
> 
> A few quick comments that may be of interest. Merey is a blend of Orinoco heavy and Santa Barbara Light, both produced in Venezuela. They blend them as the Orinoco wouldn't flow otherwise. So the 15 degree API is an average of the two.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I’ve learned something about the Merey blend. And yes, they can’t shove the bitumen down the pipes so I was referring to WCS - which is what most the commodity contracts are usually based on. 

I’ve actually got a nice set of jars in my office that Syncrude used to give out to executives (I picked it up in an estate auction a few years back). Each jar has a different component of the inputs and outputs from the production process (e.g. unprocessed oil sands, bitumen, sand, sulphuric and WCS crude).   It’s kind of cool - but yes, the bitumen itself is extremely thick. 

The whole production process itself is amazing in terms of engineering up in Wood Buffalo (both Suncor and Syncrude have let me into their control rooms and taken me behind the scenes). Not to mention the massive size of the machinery. If you are looking at fully autonomous driving, my guess is that these companies are going to be the first ones to successfully deploy a full system with their trucks.


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## jabberwocky (Mar 10, 2022)

bizaro86 said:


> The Keystone pipeline has been in operation for a long time.
> 
> The Keystone XL pipeline was cancelled when its permit got pulled. It would have delivered a great deal of Canadian crude to the Midwest.



The maddening part is that the section that actually crosses the border and needs the permit is effectively completed and in the ground. If needed this could be up and running within 9 months I think. 



bizaro86 said:


> Transmountain is still getting built (fingers crossed, as costs have escalated quite a bit) so pretty soon that oil will flow to the Pacific instead. That is better for Canada, as we would have multiple options to sell it to (California, Asia, etc) vs the US Midwest, where the refiners have a monopsony on Canadian crude. It is very likely Transmountain will raise the price of gasoline in the US Midwest as refineries there will have more competition to buy Canadian oil.


Ah yes, Transmountain. This is another one taking too long. Construction has been slow due to several mishaps. Our next door neighbour is a senior manger overseeing a portion of the construction- so I get to hear lots of stories when he is back from BC every couple of weeks.  Everyone thinks all the crude will be headed to Asia - but in reality a good portion will probably end up in California from this pipeline.


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## emeryjre (Mar 10, 2022)

Based on the reading and research I did today, my opinion (and only my opinion), a good move for the US would be to focus on getting oil production and drilling going in Alaska.  

The pipelines are in place, the oil reserves are proven.  The refinery infrastructure is in place.  

It would not increase supply in the short run, but in the next 1 to 2 years the supply would add significantly to US production and crude availability on the west coast.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 10, 2022)

Ken555 said:


> Isn’t the keystone pipeline still in use to the Midwest? What they didn’t build is the connection to Nebraska and to the gulf so Canada could export their oil to other countries. I’m not an expert on this, nor do I pretend to be, so correct me if I’m wrong… but from what I read we’ve had the keystone pipeline for ~12 years and it delivers oil from Alberta to Illinois and Texas refineries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Picture is worth a thousand words:












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## MrockStar (Mar 10, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Picture is worth a thousand words:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks.


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## Superchief (Mar 10, 2022)

emeryjre said:


> Based on the reading and research I did today, my opinion (and only my opinion), a good move for the US would be to focus on getting oil production and drilling going in Alaska.
> 
> The pipelines are in place, the oil reserves are proven.  The refinery infrastructure is in place.
> 
> It would not increase supply in the short run, but in the next 1 to 2 years the supply would add significantly to US production and crude availability on the west coast.


Even news of increased production of oil in the US would likely bring down the oil prices due to the speculation component of the pricing. This would send a clear signal that more oil will be produced here and supplies will increase. This is why I am dumbfounded that our administration keeps putting barriers to our production while seeking more oil from OPEC, Iran, and Venezuela.


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## MrockStar (Mar 10, 2022)

Its a way to push new energy adoption because it makes the cost of carbon based energy nearer to the cost of implementing wind & solar and battery technology for electric EV powered cars.


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## amycurl (Mar 10, 2022)

I just paid $3.99 at Costco on the way home this evening. While the line was short (just had to wait for the two cars at the pump in front of me,) I've *never* not been able to pull up right to the pump at 8 pm on a cold March Thursday night. I'm glad I stopped, though, because I bet the line tomorrow afternoon when we go to purchase a teevee for my mom will be crazy-go-nuts. 

I still think it's amazing that we spent *so many* years paying less than $3/gallon between 2008 and now. I really did think I'd never see under $3/gallon again in my lifetime in 2008, tbh.

Again, I consider all of my gas purchases to be dollar cost averaging. I purchase the same amount of gas, from the same place, at more-or-less the same intervals (a little longer per interval since COVID and I went from commuting about 3 days a week to about 3-4 days a month.) Over the past 15 years, I figured it has all pretty much evened out. Trying to "time" gas prices, to me, is about as ridiculous a time-suck as trying to "time" the market.


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## Ken555 (Mar 11, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Picture is worth a thousand words:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Saw that on the wiki page I referenced… it’s just unfortunate that some people here are posting comments as if the pipeline doesn’t exist when it does. 


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## MrockStar (Mar 11, 2022)

Most of us have known that several sections already exist. it's just the last XL section that has been in the news for the last several years. Not shure which "some people" you're referring to.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 11, 2022)

bizaro86 said:


> The Keystone pipeline has been in operation for a long time.
> 
> The Keystone XL pipeline was cancelled when its permit got pulled. It would have delivered a great deal of Canadian crude to the Midwest.
> 
> ...


It seems that Transmountain may end up suffering the same fate. Will it ever get built? The company that is running the project is government owned. The Canadian government announced it will stop funding the project forcing the company to go out to private debt markets to raise money. Is there an appetite on the private market to fund such a project? What will the interest rates be like?


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## MrockStar (Mar 11, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> It seems that Transmountain may end up suffering the same fate. Will it ever get built? The company that is running the project is government owned. The Canadian government announced it will stop funding the project forcing the company to go out to private debt markets to raise money. Is there an appetite on the private market to fund such a project? What will the interest rates be like?


Bummer.


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## bizaro86 (Mar 11, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> It seems that Transmountain may end up suffering the same fate. Will it ever get built? The company that is running the project is government owned. The Canadian government announced it will stop funding the project forcing the company to go out to private debt markets to raise money. Is there an appetite on the private market to fund such a project? What will the interest rates be like?



If the government doesn't actively cancel Transmountain it will get built. Most of the extra costs are "tollable". So they go into the formula for calculating the fees producers pay to move oil on the pipeline. That means those costs earn a return. The amount of equity already in the project means that borrowing debt for the remainder won't be an issue as long as the government actually wants them to do it.

I suspect the Ukraine situation will make cancelling it politically unpopular at this time, so progress should continue.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 11, 2022)

If anyone here wants to get a long term education on the oil and gas business, start reading article on the following forum:





__





						RBN Energy | Accelerating energy market analytics through collaboration, networking and alliances
					

RBN Energy is a fundamentals analytics company known for its energy markets consultancy, Backstage Pass services and the renowned Daily Energy Post – the RBN blog




					rbnenergy.com
				




I've been doing to for years. . .


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## PigsDad (Mar 11, 2022)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> If anyone here wants to get a long term education on the oil and gas business, start reading article on the following forum:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What? Actually educate ourselves about the topic?  Naw... It's more fun just to spew our biased opinions based on nothing more than our favorite media talking heads.    

Kurt


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## Ken555 (Mar 11, 2022)

MrockStar said:


> Most of us have known that several sections already exist. it's just the last XL section that has been in the news for the last several years. Not shure which "some people" you're referring to.



Your earlier post which started this tangent:



MrockStar said:


> If it was operational why did they cancel it? And why where the Canadians so upset about it.



Seems pretty clear you did NOT know it was operational based on your post. 


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## MrockStar (Mar 11, 2022)

I knew the parts not labeled XL where completed.


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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 11, 2022)

PigsDad said:


> Agree. This isn't an overnight transformation, but it is coming. 20 years? 50 years? Don't know.
> 
> Kurt





			https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/11/us-clears-way-for-driverless-vehicles-without-steering-wheels.html
		


Sooner than many think….legal rules were just published for fully autonomous driving systems based upon demand from providers intent on introducing autonomous systems this decade. 


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## MrockStar (Mar 11, 2022)

Glad i will be retiring up north in a rural township Quads are legal on all roads except state roads and hi ways. Thousands' of acres of state land/trails, low population density lots of large clear lakes. Maybee they will install a few EV charging stations at state rest stops and state/county buildings. Don't expect any autonomous vehicles except on I-75


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## seascapemvy (Mar 11, 2022)

I just read that all the inflation we have and had have in the past year plus is because of Putin.  There was no inflation until Putin started the war.  Gee, I must be crazy because my food, utilities and gas went up over 7% in 2021 yet we are being told there was no inflation.


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## geist1223 (Mar 11, 2022)

In 2021 it was temporary only to last a few months caused by the Port and Shipping Problems. Now it is a new inflation caused by Putin.


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## MrockStar (Mar 11, 2022)

A lot of blame being thrown around lately.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 11, 2022)

MrockStar said:


> A lot of blame being thrown around lately.


Never allow a crisis to go to waste.


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## MrockStar (Mar 11, 2022)

Rob Emanuel said it best.


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## seascapemvy (Mar 11, 2022)

geist1223 said:


> In 2021 it was temporary only to last a few months caused by the Port and Shipping Problems. Now it is a new inflation caused by Putin.


Thank you.  My next question is what will be the cause after the war is over?


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Mar 11, 2022)

seascapemvy said:


> Thank you.  My next question is what will be the cause after the war is over?


That's easy. To stop Global Warming. . .


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## MdRef (Mar 11, 2022)

*Uber to Roll Out Fuel Surcharge in US as Gas Soars*

Uber Technologies Inc. said on Friday U.S. customers, excluding New York City, will have to pay a fuel surcharge from Wednesday as the ride-hailing firm tries to address concerns of drivers and couriers hit by record high gasoline prices.

Customers will have to pay a surcharge fee of either 45 cents or 55 cents on each Uber trip and 35 cents or 45 cents on each Uber Eats order, depending on their location. The money charged will go directly to the workers, Uber said.

The surcharge will last for at least 60 days after which it will make adjustments based on feedback from workers and customers.









						Uber to Roll Out Fuel Surcharge in US as Gas Soars
					

Uber Technologies Inc. said on Friday U.S. customers, excluding New York City, will have to pay a fuel surcharge from Wednesday as the ride-hailing firm tries to address concerns of drivers and couriers hit by record high gasoline prices.Customers will have to pay a...




					www.newsmax.com


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## MrockStar (Mar 11, 2022)

Glad I filled up the boats last fall.


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## Ken555 (Mar 11, 2022)

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## HitchHiker71 (Mar 11, 2022)

The Real Reason Big Oil Won't Save Us From High Gas Prices
					

The Real Reason Big Oil Won't Save Us From High Gas Prices




					time.com
				





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## T-Dot-Traveller (Mar 11, 2022)

seascapemvy said:


> I just read that all the inflation we have and had have in the past year plus is because of Putin.  There was no inflation until Putin started the war.  Gee, I must be crazy because my food, utilities and gas went up over 7% in 2021 yet we are being told there was no inflation.





MrockStar said:


> A lot of blame being thrown around lately.





geist1223 said:


> In 2021 it was temporary only to last a few months caused by the Port and Shipping Problems. Now it is a new inflation caused by Putin.





Ralph Sir Edward said:


> That's easy. To stop Global Warming. . .



Back in 1974 - when the gas shortage hit ; I was a 19 year old & in university. I lived near campus and walked everywhere -
All I cared about was the price of beer. 8oz drafts ran between 25 cents & 35 cents. per glass.Cash only.!! We mostly went to the less costly establishments.

Life was good & choices were easy.


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## geist1223 (Mar 11, 2022)

I loved Dimers Night.


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## MrockStar (Mar 12, 2022)

Most things seemed better back then.


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## WManning (Mar 12, 2022)

seascapemvy said:


> I just read that all the inflation we have and had have in the past year plus is because of Putin.  There was no inflation until Putin started the war.  Gee, I must be crazy because my food, utilities and gas went up over 7% in 2021 yet we are being told there was no inflation.


LOL on inflation because of Putin. Can someone explain then why the US treasury has been paying 7.12% since Nov 2021 on I bonds?


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## Brett (Mar 12, 2022)

MrockStar said:


> Most things seemed better back then.




good old 1950's - $.20 gas


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## Tia (Mar 12, 2022)

Social Security 2022 increase was  5.9%  cost-of-living adjustment 



seascapemvy said:


> I just read that all the inflation we have and had have in the past year plus is because of Putin.  There was no inflation until Putin started the war.  Gee, I must be crazy because my food, utilities and gas went up over 7% in 2021 yet we are being told there was no inflation.


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## MULTIZ321 (Mar 12, 2022)

U.S. Gas Prices Are Skyrocketing-How Much Worse Will It Get? Car and Driver






__





						U.S. Gas Prices Are Skyrocketing—How Much Worse Will It Get?
					

The average U.S. gas price is now $4.17, the highest ever, and in some places, it's already well into the $5 and even $6 range.




					www.caranddriver.com
				





Richard


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## Superchief (Mar 12, 2022)

They can easily cut the current cost of gas by .20+ per gallon by eliminating the summer blend requirements. Tests have shown that most summer blends don't reduce emissions at all.


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## geist1223 (Mar 12, 2022)

Last year. Major Oil Company made $3Billion in profits. It made $1Billion in the first 2 months of this year. So who is ripping off the consumer?


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## ScoopKona (Mar 12, 2022)

geist1223 said:


> So who is ripping off the consumer?



The consumer is letting it happen to him or herself. Same as always. There are always options -- it's just that few people have the courage to break away from the herd and implement them.


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## bizaro86 (Mar 12, 2022)

geist1223 said:


> Last year. Major Oil Company made $3Billion in profits. It made $1Billion in the first 2 months of this year. So who is ripping off the consumer?



The extremely low profits earned by oil companies the last 5 years or so are as big or bigger a cause of current high prices as the Russia/Ukraine situation.

Prices have been low, so many oil firms went bankrupt, and the ones that didn't earned low returns on their investments. So naturally verynlittle was spent on drilling new wells and otherwise increasing supply. Covid bailed consumers out by reducing demand for a few years, but now that demand has increased again without a supply response prices have jumped.

Firms are drilling again now, so I'd expect price increases to moderate in the medium term


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## seascapemvy (Mar 13, 2022)

Tia said:


> Social Security 2022 increase was  5.9%  cost-of-living adjustment


The Social Security increase is set based on 3rd quarter inflation not the 4th quarter.  Inflation was over 7% and people are falling behind.  We need to end inflation now.


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