# [2015] Marriott to acquire Starwood hotels



## cubigbird (Nov 16, 2015)

It was announced today that Marriott will acquire Starwood hotels.  

Here is an article from CNBC

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/16/marriott-to-buy-starwood-for-122b-in-cashstock.html

I wonder how this will influence SVO since it is being spun off to ILG.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 16, 2015)

There's also a thread in the Marriott forum:  Holy Moly.  Marriott is Acquiring Starwood [Hotel Business, not Timeshares]


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## GrayFal (Nov 16, 2015)

What does this mean for you?

While the deal is absolutely fantastic news for Marriott Rewards members, who will eventually have access to Starwood’s arguably higher-end portfolio, the implications aren’t so positive for the Starwood Preferred Guest program — and its 21 million members. SPG is significantly more rewarding than Marriott Rewards, which only last month announced plans to up its game a bit in order to catch up with the competition.

We can of course hope for Marriott to adopt the SPG program, but with fewer than half the members of Marriott Rewards, that certainly isn’t likely. And there is some hope that Marriott could operate the Starwood Preferred Guest program alongside its own, as IHG is currently doing with Kimpton, though with less competition in the lodging industry there may be little incentive to do so in the long term.



Read more: http://thepointsguy.com/2015/11/marriott-to-acquire-starwood-hotels/#ixzz3rfASCuxl


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LisaRex (Nov 16, 2015)

Interesting news.  I can't imagine that they'll operate two different loyalty programs, so I'm glad that I haven't stockpiled SPs. I'll probably be cancelling my SPG AMEX in favor of a card that gives more favorable earnings power to leisure travelers. 

I'm still optimistic that the SVO internal exchange system (e.g. SOs) will remain relatively intact for a few years, but it'll be interesting to see how they're going to work out an SO->MR conversion.


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## cubigbird (Nov 16, 2015)

I'm wondering how they'll map the elite status.  Of course one can only speculate at this time.  Starwood Gold is certainly very valuable (at least in my travels) but I doubt they would map to Marriott Gold, same with Platinum.  Marriott Silver can be obtained fairly easily through their Chase credit card and I'd hate to see gold members get downgraded to silver.  

I wonder how this will change the developer pitches of SPG gold.  Buy now and lock it in :hysterical:

Ditto to a previous post, all with hopes they keep SPG, but as with anything publicly traded, the point is not to create value for the consumer, rather the shareholder.


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## komosatp (Nov 16, 2015)

Does this make HRA even more of an odd-duck than before? Or does it make it simpler? I can't get my head around it....

HRA was only semi-Starwood, and the only non-Starwood branded TS in the SVO system. Now the resort that HRA has deeded access to (Atlantis) is Marriott affiliated, though still owned by a private equity real estate company (Brookfield). Starwood resort brands will be within the Marriott portfolio, but HRA will be Interval affiliated.

Is HRA now the 'Kevin Bacon' of the resort version of six-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon?


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## Ken555 (Nov 16, 2015)

Wow, this is not what I expected or wanted. I'm making a bunch of reservations today just in case...and I suggest you do the same (can always cancel). I chose SPG years ago on purpose since it had a more valuable redemption and earning ratio vs Marriott. The game is changing!


Sent from my iPad


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## amundson (Nov 16, 2015)

Interesting news.  I somewhat feel as though the spinoff of the timeshare was in preparation for and helped enable this merger with Marriott.  This is conjecture on my part.

Also, some of the properties are adjacent to a Westin hotel, which was interesting with the spin off, but now is more interesting with the purchase by Marriott and possible branding changes.  My assumption is that the Westin Brand and the relationships in those locations between the timeshare units and the hotels will continue.  

Going forward, I wonder if this makes it less likely that timeshare properties will intermingle with hotel properties.  Somehow, this whole things seems to make it less desirable to be a timeshare owner.


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## tomandrobin (Nov 16, 2015)

This has totally caught me off guard.

Last year, it was US Airways merger that sucked hard......Now Starwood being bought by Marriott really can't be a good thing for me. 

Now what to do with my 200,000 starpoints?


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## Jason245 (Nov 16, 2015)

tomandrobin said:


> This has totally caught me off guard.
> 
> Last year, it was US Airways merger that sucked hard......Now Starwood being bought by Marriott really can't be a good thing for me.
> 
> Now what to do with my 200,000 starpoints?


Use then asap

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## tomandrobin (Nov 16, 2015)

Jason245 said:


> Use then asap



Biggest problem with that is as a timeshare owner, many things are planned far out. 

Christmas booked, Easter booked, Memorial Day weekend booked, 2 weeks at ST John booked, Labor Day booked, October Cruise/Disney booked, Christmas booked.


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## DeniseM (Nov 16, 2015)

We don't use SP's for hotel stays - would you recommend transferring them to our favorite airline?


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## LisaRex (Nov 16, 2015)

FWIW, here is what is posted on SPG.com: 

"Today we’re excited to share the news that Starwood Hotels & Resorts will join together with Marriott International to create the world’s largest hotel company. For our Starwood Preferred Guest® (SPG®) members, this will mean even more choices in even more places, giving you access to 1.1 million rooms across 5,500 hotels and resorts in more than 100 countries.

We will work to bring you the very best of SPG and Marriott Rewards®, two of the most rewarding loyalty programs in our industry. Our members are at the core of everything we do, and that will not change.

Today is the first day of a long journey as we combine our two companies. For now, we remain separate, and there is no change to your SPG program status, your Starpoints® or your existing reservations. You will continue to earn Starpoints and elite stay/night credit for your stays, as well as bonus Starpoints for any promotions in which you are participating. There is no change to how you manage your SPG account or book reservations.

Over the coming months, as we have more to share, we’ll be sure to reach out to you by email, at spg.com and via twitter (@spg). In the meantime, we remain at your service wherever you need us — whether in our hotels, at spg.com, on the SPG mobile app or via our Customer Contact Centers.

Thank you for sharing your travels with us.
Chris Holdren
Senior Vice President, Starwood Preferred Guest"


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## LisaRex (Nov 16, 2015)

tomandrobin said:


> Biggest problem with that is as a timeshare owner, many things are planned far out.
> 
> Christmas booked, Easter booked, Memorial Day weekend booked, 2 weeks at ST John booked, Labor Day booked, October Cruise/Disney booked, Christmas booked.



Are your flights already booked?  SPs are actually pretty useful for booking flights, too.


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## ragdoll (Nov 16, 2015)

Jason245 said:


> Use then asap



I agree with this. I have no interest in Marriott hotels. They are inferior, downmarket products. I guess we will burn our points and say goodbye.


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## dsmrp (Nov 16, 2015)

LisaRex said:


> Are your flights already booked?  SPs are actually pretty useful for booking flights, too.



I forget, who pays for the 5000 pts bonus when you transfer 20K to airline miles, AMEX or Starwood?

This sale news makes the current SVN promotion offer to sell SPG pts much less appealing.


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## toddvb20 (Nov 16, 2015)

Does anyone know if starpoints transferred/converted to Delta sky miles ever expire?


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## VacationForever (Nov 16, 2015)

For those of you who say Marriott is inferior to Starwood, you are likely to be thinking of the Courtyards and Residence Inns.  JW Marriotts are on par with Westins.  In my business travel life, I loved JW Marriotts. I just don't find their reqards program as rewarding as Starwood's.


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## John Cummings (Nov 16, 2015)

*Marriott to buy Starwood*

Marriott to buy Starwood to create world's biggest hotel chain.

http://news.yahoo.com/marriott-buy-starwood-hotels-12-2-billion-deal-111819799--sector.html


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## Talent312 (Nov 16, 2015)

*Marriott to buy Starwood*

*CNBC* -- Marriott International will buy Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide for $12.2 billion to create the world's largest hotel chain with top brands including Sheraton, Ritz Carlton and the Autograph Collection. 

The combined company will own or franchise more than 5,500 hotels with 1.1 million rooms worldwide and give Marriott greater presence in markets such as Europe, Latin America and Asia including India and China. 

Marriott currently has three-quarters of its rooms in the United States. Starwood, which also owns St. Regis and Aloft hotel brands, gets nearly two-thirds of its revenue from outside the country.

Starwood had essentially put itself up for sale in April, when it said it was considering strategic alternatives, taking about 14 percent off its stock up to Friday's close.

The company, which had a market value of $12.67 billion as of Friday, had reached out to InterContinental Hotels Group, Wyndham Worldwide and sovereign wealth funds for a possible deal since July, sources had told Reuters.
.
.


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## suzannesimon (Nov 16, 2015)

I don't think this is going to change much, if anything, for us timeshare owners.  Marriott timeshares are  owned by MVC and Starwood (soon to be Vistana) will be owned by Interval.  I don't see how anything can be combined there unless Interval buys MVC also.  They already purchased Hyatt.  I actually wouldn't mind Marriott managing HRC.  I'd like to see some Marriott management expertise there since it never has risen to Starwood quality anyway.


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## shade (Nov 16, 2015)

Fortunately, I arranged hotels in Madrid and Valencia for a October '16 trip to Spain. The Westin in each location was a great deal for cash and points. This morning used my remaining Starpoints for an additional room at Westin Madrid for my daughter and mother-in-law. I have always found wonderful value for Starpoints in Europe. Much better than airline transfers.


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## LisaRex (Nov 16, 2015)

suzannesimon said:


> I don't think this is going to change much, if anything, for us timeshare owners.



I agree, especially in the short term. The exception may be Elite Owners who valued the connection between the hotel and timeshare wings.


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## mnmrsjjp (Nov 16, 2015)

If they make too many changes they will anger the SPG folks and loose a lot of business.  If they combine programs and then charge higher point values for the Starwood Hotels as they do for Marriott they will also lose a lot of customers.  This was not good news.  Does anyone know if one can get elite gold status just by the amount charged for Marriott or does it require room stays?


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## vistana101 (Nov 16, 2015)

I wonder how this will affect starpoint conversions from timeshare weeks and other SPG participation via SVN. Lifetime SPG platinum for 5 star elite members? Enrollment in gold program for all members? 

I am happy, however, about the greater selection of properties we will have on the hotel side. At least domestically, I know I have personally been a bit limited in certain locations in the past due to a lack of Starwood properties.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 16, 2015)

mnmrsjjp said:


> If they make too many changes they will anger the SPG folks and loose a lot of business.  If they combine programs and then charge higher point values for the Starwood Hotels as they do for Marriott they will also lose a lot of customers.  This was not good news.  Does anyone know if one can get elite gold status just by the amount charged for Marriott or does it require room stays?



In the Marriott Rewards program you earn status by annually accumulating "Elite Nights" - 10 for Silver, 50 for Gold, 75 for Platinum.  EN's are earned at all of the Marriott-family brands one-for-one through cash stays and timeshare stays (owners and II exchangers) and, recently-implemented, through redemption award stays.  EN's are also earned through use of the Chase Marriott VISA at a ratio of 1EN for every $3,000 spend.  EN's over and above the current-year's requirements roll over to the next year.

Marriott Rewards Points are earned through spends at Marriott hotels/resorts and the VISA card, with multiples as bonuses for specific spends.  MRP can be redeemed for stays based on property tiers, for airline miles, for Travel Packages that economize hotel and air, for various products in a catalog which of course isn't the most economical use of points but it's an option.

Lifetime status requirements:
Silver - 250 Total EN plus 1.2 million MRP
Gold - 500 Total EN plus 1.6 million MRP
Platinum - 750 Total EN plus 2 million MRP

There are a few one-off properties that don't participate in the Marriott Rewards Program, either through Nights or Points or both.

This is the most basic info.  Of course it's much too soon to start speculating on what will happen to SPG but you asked, and it might help to be able to refer back to this.  I'm sure whatever I've missed, somebody else will be happy to fill in.


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## dsmrp (Nov 16, 2015)

*Another redemption tier*

I'm speculating that if Marriott gets around to consolidating the two loyalty programs, they'll make another level or two(?) charging more redemption points, and put the highest end Starwood hotels in with the highest end Marriotts.  It'll cost more for both Marriott and Starwood members


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## Helios (Nov 16, 2015)

tomandrobin said:


> This has totally caught me off guard.
> 
> Last year, it was US Airways merger that sucked hard......Now Starwood being bought by Marriott really can't be a good thing for me.
> 
> Now what to do with my 200,000 starpoints?



I agree.  I really disliked the Continental merged with United. :annoyed:

I wish MVC had bought Vistana.  Now I hope ILG buys Marriott and merges Hyatt, Vistana, and Marriott into one timeshare system.    That would be the best case scenario...IMHO...


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## RALnGA (Nov 16, 2015)

*Atlantis and  Marriott last year merged*

Wasn't it last year that Marriott bought part of the Atlantis?
So now it seems Harborside will be part of this deal....maybe that is why you can't reserve Harborside after May of next year...
I read SPG and SVN will be around  for a little while ,maybe a year then they will disappear... 

RAL


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## cubigbird (Nov 16, 2015)

This is why the advice of "buy where you want to go" should always be the most material and prevail in buying a TS.  With all of these changes about to occur, I still have my fixed weeks at the resorts I want to go to.  The rest of the fluff can go away at any time, and I'm sure most of it will, or change as we know it.  I love the SVN and SPG benefits, but remember these are all publicly traded companies.  Their objective is maximizing value for their shareholders, not for their customers.  Changes will be made with profit first, customer second.


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## komosatp (Nov 16, 2015)

RALnGA said:


> Wasn't it last year that Marriott bought part of the Atlantis?


Marriott was only peripherally involved in the Atlantis recapitalization*. The total recap was for around $2 billion. A consortium of bank lenders provided $1.75 billion. Brookfield, the hedge fund/private equity company that now owns Atlantis put in $175 million of their own money. Marriott provided $100 million. So Marriott provided around 1/20th (~5%) of the recap funding, and in the form of a loan, not an equity investment. I don't think that loan gives Marriott much of a role in the day-to-day at Atlantis. It was more of a good faith gesture to inaugurate Atlantis becoming part of the Autograph Collection. 

The bottom line is the Marriott loan was probably a value-add play for Marriott to add a signature property to use in its hotel loyalty system. And to have an inside track if/when Brookfield decides to sell Atlantis. Brookfield likes it because they have a seasoned hotel managment company ready to step-in should the newly formed Atlantis management company not measure up.

*And Atlantis wasn't exactly 'purchased'. Sol Kerzner, the former owner and original builder of Atlantis, defaulted on loans he took out to expand Atlantis and take the his company private. The loans couldn't be refinanced (Atlantis was able to make the debt payments, but was unable to refinance when the balloon payment on his original loans came due) and Brookield owned the piece of the original deal that allowed them to become the new owner of the property, should it go onto default.

I'm not writing this all to nitpick little details, but to highlight the fact that Marriott isn't really all that involved at Atlantis. I get the fun speculation, but there will be lots of bidders should Atlantis go up for sale.


RALnGA said:


> So now it seems Harborside will be part of this deal....maybe that is why you can't reserve Harborside after May of next year...


Where did you see that HRA was part of this deal? AFAIK HRA is part of the SVN, and SVN is still being sold to Interval. 

And I'm also not sure what could be 'sold' at HRA, since HRA is sold-out and is owned by by the people who own timeshares there. It doesn't have a license to operate as a Starwood branded resort, and its access to Atlantis' amenities are based on and access deed between HRA and Atlanis, with SVN and Interval (and Marriott for that matter) not having anything to do with that access deed.


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## SuzyQ (Nov 16, 2015)

http://time.com/money/4114661/marriott-starwood-merger-rewards-points/


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## ekinggill (Nov 16, 2015)

I recently flipped 60K SPG points for 90k AAdvantage miles.  Feeling like that was a well timed move.

Don't know if the special is still available



tomandrobin said:


> This has totally caught me off guard.
> 
> Last year, it was US Airways merger that sucked hard......Now Starwood being bought by Marriott really can't be a good thing for me.
> 
> Now what to do with my 200,000 starpoints?


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## Sicnarf (Nov 16, 2015)

I may be optimistic but my prediction is that SPG will just become MR, and SPs will just become MRPs.  And yes, we may have to use more MRPs for some upscale Starwood properties BUT the upside is tons more choices of locations and properties!

Having spend a ton of $ with *wood to become lifetime platinum SPG member, I'm hopeful that it will carry over to MR. Note that Marriott is guaranteed to collect from me the equivalent of 75 night stays of MF yearly.


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## SMHarman (Nov 16, 2015)

Sicnarf said:


> I may be optimistic but my prediction is that SPG will just become MR, and SPs will just become MRPs.  And yes, we may have to use more MRPs for some upscale Starwood properties BUT the upside is tons more choices of locations and properties!
> 
> Having spend a ton of $ with *wood to become lifetime platinum SPG member, I'm hopeful that it will carry over to MR. Note that Marriott is guaranteed to collect from me the equivalent of 75 night stays of MF yearly.


Marriott won't be collecting the MF. That's going to VVE / II


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## JudyS (Nov 16, 2015)

I also am very disappointed with the news. There had been rumors that Hyatt (Hotels) would buy Starwood (Hotels), and I would have greatly preferred that. I  am sitting on about 150,000 Starpoints and I'm sure a big devaluation is coming. The only question is how soon. 

I have several major surgeries upcoming in 2016. Plus, my husband just lost his job, so we have no idea what our financial situation or his schedule will be like. This means burning my Starpoints soon on a big trip is not an option. 

Yeah, I know I can transfer Starpoints to airlines, Amtrak, etc., but I was really hoping to use them for hotels in Europe. Bummer!



Sicnarf said:


> I may be optimistic but my prediction is that SPG will just become MR, and SPs will just become MRPs....


Yeah, but if Marriott gives us one Marriott Reward Point for one Starpoint, that would be an enormous devaluation. Even a couple of Marriott Reward Points per Starpoint might be a devaluation.  It's easy to get 2 cents of value per Starpoint, and getting 3 cents (or more) per Starpoint is doable if your travel plans have some flexibility. What's a Marriott Reward Point worth?


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## JudyS (Nov 16, 2015)

suzannesimon said:


> ...  I actually wouldn't mind Marriott managing HRC.  I'd like to see some Marriott management expertise there since it never has risen to Starwood quality anyway.


HRC -- is that the same as HRA? (Harborside at the Atlantis.)

I just bought my first Starwood timeshare in 2014. I had a trade into the Harborside in 2015, but instead ended up in the ICU. (No, "ICU" is not an abbreviation for a timeshare!  )

I really hope HRA stays affiliated with Starwood timeshares for a while, so I get a chance to use my Starwood preference in II to trade in there.

Now, if ILG (Interval) bought the Marriott timeshare division, that would be great! Unfortunately, I doubt ILG can swing that financially. They bought Hyatt and Starwood timeshares, but the Marriott timeshare division is a much larger company.


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## JudyS (Nov 17, 2015)

Seems like I'm not the only one worried about my Starpoints. There's actually an article about this in _Time_ magazine: 

http://time.com/money/4114661/marriott-starwood-merger-rewards-points/
*What Marriott’s Purchase of Starwood Means for Your Hotel Reward Points:
Travelers are expecting the worst.*

Some key quotes:
"Most of the commenters at the frequent flier forum FlyerTalk believe that the Marriott-Starwood merger is particularly bad for travelers with lots of SPG points, and they expect that the move will kick off a new era of mergers in the hotel world....
...Still, while the most likely outcome for travelers is a devaluation of reward points and perhaps the disappearance of some hotel brands and their reward programs entirely, travel experts say that there’s no need to use up your reward points in a hurry....'No need to panic or hurry to burn your points,' Boarding Area advised...."


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## Sicnarf (Nov 17, 2015)

JudyS said:


> I also am very disappointed with the news. There had been rumors that Hyatt (Hotels) would buy Starwood (Hotels), and I would have greatly preferred that. I  am sitting on about 150,000 Starpoints and I'm sure a big devaluation is coming. The only question is how soon.
> 
> I have several major surgeries upcoming in 2016. Plus, my husband just lost his job, so we have no idea what our financial situation or his schedule will be like. This means burning my Starpoints soon on a big trip is not an option.
> 
> ...



Marriott gives 10  MRPs per $ spent while *wood only gives 2 SPs.  So I  would hope the conversion rate should be 1SP=5MRP.


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## YYJMSP (Nov 17, 2015)

vistana101 said:


> I wonder how this will affect starpoint conversions from timeshare weeks and other SPG participation via SVN. Lifetime SPG platinum for 5 star elite members? Enrollment in gold program for all members?



I'm of the opinion that the ILG purchase of SVO would keep the concept of SVN alive, since ILG would have all of the properties necessary to keep some sort of trading between them going; however, I think the SPG conversions would have been at risk, since they'd probably have to "buy" the points from SPG, and why would they do that.

Now with the Marriott purchase of Starwood, I think we can basically kiss the SPG conversions good-bye.  This will definitely hurt, as we do use the conversions about half of the time...

I'm predicting we'll see an announcement in 2016 that this feature is gone as a result of changes to SVN, the Elite program, and the demise of SPG.

I wonder how they'll deal with outstanding SPG points incentive agreements (i.e. certificates to buy points for a few years after a developer purchase, the points associated with Explorer packages, etc) if there is no longer any such thing as SPG points...


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## YYJMSP (Nov 17, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> Lifetime status requirements:
> Silver - 250 Total EN plus 1.2 million MRP
> Gold - 500 Total EN plus 1.6 million MRP
> Platinum - 750 Total EN plus 2 million MRP



I'm hoping that they'll convert lifetime SPG points to MRP at ~1:3, to ~1:4 so the requirements will be 250nts/~400K for Silver, 500nts/~500K for Gold, and 750nts/~600K for Platinum, when they absorb the existing SPG membership, assuming SPG Platinum corresponds to MR Gold, and MR Platinum has some benefits above what we got as SPG Platinum (I'm not familiar with the MR program features...)

That and I'm hoping SPG actually has records to compute lifetime points accumulated.


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## GrayFal (Nov 17, 2015)

Sicnarf said:


> Marriott gives 10  MRPs per $ spent while *wood only gives 2 SPs.  So I  would hope the conversion rate should be 1SP=5MRP.



15 MRPs per $1 using Marriott VISA


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## Lansdowne (Nov 17, 2015)

Thank you for the info.


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## ciscogizmo1 (Nov 17, 2015)

Is there a chart out there with the different Marriott ViSA cards and what they offer?  I might have to upgrade.

I'm still sad.  We stayed in Portland, Oregon at the Nines.  We stayed for 5 nights on concierge level for 80,000 points.   If I were to stay at a Marriott hotel on the Waterfront in Portland I would have to 140,000 points.  So, this is where the points devalue for me.  You can never use rewards points to stay concierge level with Marriott.  I've only been able to upgrade by paying cash.  If I want to stay at the 80,000 point level in Portland I would have to stay at a Fairfield Inn.  

Another example is that we frequent Disneyland a lot.  So, if I stay on Marriott Points I can pay anywhere from 100,000 to 140,000 points for a 5 night stay.   With Starwood I would pay 32,000 - 55,000 points for a 5 night stay.   

I won't speculate now but with Marriott the owner I doubt they are going to lower their point structure when all they have been doing is raising them or moving hotels from category to category.


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## n2fc (Nov 17, 2015)

*Marriott Gold*



mnmrsjjp said:


> If they make too many changes they will anger the SPG folks and loose a lot of business.  If they combine programs and then charge higher point values for the Starwood Hotels as they do for Marriott they will also lose a lot of customers.  This was not good news.  Does anyone know if one can get elite gold status just by the amount charged for Marriott or does it require room stays?



Marriott "gold" requires 50 nights per year, "platinum" is 75...
("silver" requires only 10)

The Chase Marriott (premier) charge card confers "silver" elite status automatically (15 nights), and 1 extra elite credit per $3000 charged to the card...


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## LisaRex (Nov 17, 2015)

For the hotel side, I'm assuming that they will fold SPG into the MR program by retrofitting the current portfolio into MR categories (e.g. an SPG7 will be a MR 9) and that they will covert it 1:1.  

Why?  Because the number of hotel points required are very similar:

Marriott Program:
Category # MR points need (Saver rate)
1 7,500 (6,000)
2 10,000 (7,500)
3 15,000 (10,000)
4 20,000 (15,000)
5 25,000 (20,000)
6 30,000 (25,000)
7 35,000 (30,000)
8 40,000 (35,000)
9 45,000 (40,000)

Starwood Program:Category Starpoints
1 3,000
2 4,000
3 7,000
4 10,000
5 12,000-16,000
6 20,000-25,000
7 30,000-35,000

I can't imagine that with this data, they'd ever give Starwood members double or even quintuple their SPs.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 17, 2015)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> Is there a chart out there with the different Marriott ViSA cards and what they offer?  I might have to upgrade. ...



Marriott Rewards Credit Card from Chase (JPMorgan Chase and Co. link)

_"Marriott Rewards Credit Cards are available to US residents that have a valid permanent home address within the 50 United States or the District of Columbia only."_  I believe there are other options for Canada and Europe; hopefully those owners will chime in here.


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## Henry M. (Nov 17, 2015)

LisaRex said:


> Why?  Because the number of hotel points required are very similar:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...



I'm not sure how you conclude that MR point requirements are similar to Starpoint requirements. Except at the very highest category, the Marriott properties require about twice the points as the Starwood properties for a given category, not counting the 5th night free that you get at most Starwood properties.

I recently spent a night at Courtyard by Marriott on Maui, and it cost me almost twice what a room at the Sheraton or Westin in Ka'anapali would have cost. For sure there is no comparison in those properties, so I'm not sure that even the categories are equivalent. Marriott categories seem to represent properties a step or two below the Starwood properties for a given category number, further exacerbating the difference in the value of each programs reward points.


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## ragdoll (Nov 17, 2015)

*Starwood Affiliation vs Marriott Affiliation*

I'm wondering if some of the Starwood-branded hotels will rethink their association with Starwood/Marriott and may decide to affiliate with another management company. We may lose some hotel choices in the long run particularly at the higher end.


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## vistana101 (Nov 17, 2015)

YYJMSP said:


> I'm of the opinion that the ILG purchase of SVO would keep the concept of SVN alive, since ILG would have all of the properties necessary to keep some sort of trading between them going; however, I think the SPG conversions would have been at risk, since they'd probably have to "buy" the points from SPG, and why would they do that.
> 
> Now with the Marriott purchase of Starwood, I think we can basically kiss the SPG conversions good-bye.  This will definitely hurt, as we do use the conversions about half of the time...



I would definitely not be happy about the loss of SPG privileges and conversion options. I took a look at some of the info on the SVN site about the Interval acquisition and I saw this:



> *WILL CURRENT AND FUTURE STARWOOD VACATION NETWORK (SVN) MEMBERS STILL HAVE ACCESS TO STARWOOD HOTELS? WILL I STILL BE ABLE TO CONVERT MY STAROPTIONS TO STARPOINTS AND ACCESS STARWOOD HOTELS WORLDWIDE?
> 
> Yes, all current and future Owners will continue to enjoy Gold-level access to the Starwood Preferred Guest® program as they have in the past. The terms and conditions governing access to Starwood hotels through SVN and the SPG program are reviewed and updated from time to time. Any changes that may take place in the ordinary course of business would not be attributable to the transaction.*



I wonder if Marriott will honor this and give SVN members access to their gold level ideally, or at least their silver level. Also will be interesting to see if the conversion options are kept at all, (even before Marriott announcement, this seemed a bit unclear based on Starwood's wording above), and if so how/if the conversions are affected numerically.


----------



## ciscogizmo1 (Nov 17, 2015)

LisaRex said:


> For the hotel side, I'm assuming that they will fold SPG into the MR program by retrofitting the current portfolio into MR categories (e.g. an SPG7 will be a MR 9) and that they will covert it 1:1.
> 
> Why?  Because the number of hotel points required are very similar:
> 
> ...



I disagree with you on this because most of the time the 5th night is free with Starwood so it comes out way lower.  I posted real live examples of how I used the Starwood system in the post above.  You are taking the typical accountant view and comparing them which is okay but it isn't reality.  I'm sure that is how the Marriott corporation will look it.  I always check on my Marriott rewards to see if I can get a better deal and I cannot.   You cannot stay on concierge level with points with Marriott.   Also with Starwood if there is a room available you can book it on points.  With Marriott they only allow X amount of rooms to be booked on points.  So, for places like London you have to book 11 months out to the day.   With Marriott in Europe it can be tricky as you have to book the day they release the rooms for the week.  So in London the one hotel I was interested in releases their rooms on Sundays for the week.   However, I needed a reservation for Thursday through Tuesday.  I had to book the first part Thursday to Sunday and then, book the next week Sunday to Tuesday and, then, I had to call Marriott to use a special point rate.   Plus, the category they place the rooms in for Marriott are much higher than Starwood (look at my Anaheim comparison)   It is very obvious that Marriott over values their hotels.


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## ciscogizmo1 (Nov 17, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> Marriott Rewards Credit Card from Chase (JPMorgan Chase and Co. link)
> 
> _"Marriott Rewards Credit Cards are available to US residents that have a valid permanent home address within the 50 United States or the District of Columbia only."_  I believe there are other options for Canada and Europe; hopefully those owners will chime in here.


 Thanks for the link..


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## ciscogizmo1 (Nov 17, 2015)

The hotels I look at in Anaheim aren't luxury hotels.  But here is an example of a Marriott hotel that is rate a category 7 and cost 140,000 points for a 5 night stay in August:


*SpringHill Suites Anaheim Maingate  

1160 West Ball Road Anaheim, California 92802 

 1.5 miles  from Anaheim 


Guest rating 4.6/5  


 Save hotel
.

 Free high speed Internet 
 Free breakfast 
 Kitchen/kitchenette 
 Fitness center 
 Category 7 
 Hotel Reward
 • Cash + Points 



SpringHill Suites Anaheim Maingate 


From

 140,000   points/stay 

or


199 
 USD /night    *

Now here is a similar hotel with Starwood it is considered a Category 4 and cost 40000 points for a 5 night stay.  Remember the 5th night is free:

*Sheraton Park Hotel at the Anaheim Resort  
1855 South Harbor Boulevard
Anaheim,
California
92802
United States
SPG Category 4


Photos 

|

Hotel Information  

370 sq ft / 34 m²
Sweet Sleeper Bed
Starbucks coffee in room
Refrigerator
Wi-Fi internet for an additional charge


Average Rate Per Night
8,000 Starpoints 



Terms & Details


Reserve  


5th Night Free! 

+ Show Night-By-Night Rate *

The free breakfast Marriott offers is not worth 100,000 points in my book.


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 17, 2015)

Will SVO/VSE VOIs (aka TS weeks) still have SPG-like privileges transferred with equivalency (if at all...) to Marriott?
... equivalent SVN privileges in ILG/II?

doubt it...


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## vistana101 (Nov 17, 2015)

For one example, the St. Regis Bal Harbour is 35,000 starpoints for one night in prime season while the Ritz down the road is 70,000 points per night in Marriott's system. A 1 to 1 conversion would be very disappointing.


----------



## LisaRex (Nov 17, 2015)

vistana101 said:


> For one example, the St. Regis Bal Harbour is 35,000 starpoints for one night in prime season while the Ritz down the road is 70,000 points per night in Marriott's system. A 1 to 1 conversion would be very disappointing.



I didn't even see a reward worth 70,000 MRs in their grid.  But you are correct.  Apparently, the Ritz hotels are in a category (which Marriott calls "tiers") of their own.  The redemption rate for these are rather laughable.  Here are the points required for these hotels:

Ritz-Carlton 
Hotel Tier:  1  30,000 (20,000)
Hotel Tier:  2  40,000 (30,000)
Hotel Tier:  3  50,000 (40,000)
Hotel Tier:  4  60,000 (50,000)
Hotel Tier:  5  70,000 (60,000)

I've stayed in a few Ritzes (Boston 2x and Half Moon Bay), and enjoyed them, but both were on the corporate dime.  I'd never pay that kind of dough for a room with a bed, even one with a chocolate on the pillow.  So that's kind of a non-issue FOR ME. 

But if you look at the "regular" top tier hotels in each program, it's not nearly as bad.  For instance, The Phoenician in Phoenix is a Level 6 SPG hotel, which I imagine is comparable to the JW Marriott Camelback (Level 8 Marriott)? The former will run you 20,000-25,000 SPs and the latter will run you 35,000-40,000 MRs.  

Yes, a significant increase, _except_ but not so bad if you overlay the cost per night into how you EARN MRs.   

For business travelers who can actually stay in Marriott hotels, they can earn a whopping 15 points per $ spent if they're able to use their Chase Marriott Rewards card.  If their corporation restricts them to a corporate card, they can still earn 10 points per $ spent.  By comparison, you can only earn a maxi of 5 SPs per night in the SPG program, and only 2-3 if you cannot use your SPG AMEX.   So that's a significant increase in the number of points you can earn. 

For leisure travelers such as myself, I can earn 2x points on restaurants, which is my #2 category of personal spending (behind home improvement stores right now because I'm in the middle of building a lake house.) The SPG Amex only gives me 1:1 earnings ratio on non-hotel spending, so I'll earn quite a few more points if I switch to the Chase MR card.  

And, of course, the Chase card gives you one night in Cat 1-5 each year, with an $85 annual fee. 

IOW, I can't say that I'm thrilled to be looking at the sunset of the SPG program.  I'll definitely miss the 12,000 SP nights at the Sheraton Fisherman's Wharf and the deals on flights with SPs.  But it's not a complete disaster. And you really should look on the bright side, because there's not a darn thing we can do about it except bang our heads on the wall. .


----------



## DavidnRobin (Nov 17, 2015)

LisaRex said:


> And you really should look on the bright side, because there's not a darn thing we can do about it except bang our heads on the wall. .



How about a Class Action Lawsuit?  Oops! Forgot that I failed to opt-out of the Arbitration clause...
:rofl:


----------



## LisaRex (Nov 17, 2015)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> You are taking the typical accountant view and comparing them which is okay but it isn't reality.  I'm sure that is how the Marriott corporation will look it.



I only come armed with common sense and the knowledge of what happened with the airline mergers.  In the airline mergers, the loyalty programs merged and the ratio was 1:1, no matter what their earnings or redemption platforms looked like prior to the merge.  I was active on FlyerTalk during the early mergers, and loyal members of the airlines that were swallowed up by other airlines kicked and screamed about the worth of their miles vs. "SkyPesos."

The good news is that elite members were always given comparable status in the new program.  (Though I do believe that some "lifetime statuses" were taken away, though I could be wrong on that.)

What further complicates this latest merger is the former affiliations between TSs and hotels.  The former Starwood timeshare division spun itself off from Starwood but retained the "Sheraton" and "Westin" monikers (for a huge fee).  II will own that branch.  Marriott hotels, which is still affiliated with Marriott TSs company, will now own the Starwood hotels, but will not be affiliated with Starwood TSs.  

So my GUESS is that SVN will continue for awhile and then replaced by some II internal currency.  This COULD be a good thing if they value their resorts fairly and open it up to Hyatt TSs, which are reportedly nice. 

My GUESS is that SO to hotel currency will be discontinued permanently, or possibly grandfathered in.   But I think II's focus will be on exchanges, which is where their expertise is.


----------



## LisaRex (Nov 17, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> How about a Class Action Lawsuit?  Oops! Forgot that I failed to opt-out of the Arbitration clause...
> :rofl:



That's too bad because had you not opted out, you might be among the victors who qualify for a $25 per night rebate on your next Marriott, formerly Starwood, hotel!


----------



## ciscogizmo1 (Nov 17, 2015)

LisaRex said:


> I
> But if you look at the "regular" top tier hotels in each program, it's not nearly as bad.  For instance, The Phoenician in Phoenix is a Level 6 SPG hotel, which I imagine is comparable to the JW Marriott Camelback (Level 8 Marriott)? The former will run you 20,000-25,000 SPs and the latter will run you 35,000-40,000 MRs.


  Good luck in booking at the Camelback.   I just looked for Starwood Phoenician for 5 nights from March 5 to 10th it is available for 100,000 points but for Marriott there is no availability on points.

But you are right there is nothing we can do about it.  It definitely makes me sad though.


----------



## NNerland (Nov 17, 2015)

Please remember that they signed multi million dollar, multi year contracts to continue the licensing use of Westin, Sheraton...etc.

In these deals, which all cost us money, they are done to ensure the continued value play.  Will the points be worth as much, one can argue we have to wait and see - but to even insinuate they will be dropped is insane.

Their entire value proposition of their network GOES OUT THE WINDOW - and thus WHY they signed these deals that go into play in selling their developer assets.

I agree we have no idea where loyalty and such is going...but Marriott is picking up a multi-million dollar check each year, and I understand for something like 75 years (that was the contract).

I am waiting for the rolling heads (smilies) -- but Marriott said they realize they are so far behind in Technology and Marketing.   SPG was a killer in that area.   They are acquiring this.  They also stated that SPG had a far superior loyalty program.   Yes there is something like 2-1 Marriott to SPG members, but there are going to be MANY duplicates.

My big issues is the new flood of redeemers at quality properties that SPG has, the increased redemption levels, and possible suite upgrades going away.

But hardly one person has talked about how Marriott admitted WHY they bought SPG -- Platform, Global Presence, Website/Tech/Ap

Finally - can we please stop comparing a Hotel Merger with an AIRLINE MERGER.   Hotels are NOT Monopoly's and they have a HUGE incentive to reward their customers.   Airlines OWN GATES and OWN YOU as a customer based on where you HUB FROM -- Hotels must win your business WHERE YOU GO.  I do like some more "value" options when traveling to cities that don't have SPG.   But when traveling you still have MILLIONS of hotel rooms to choose from when you end in a city -- NOT THE CASE WITH AIRLINES.....The Gov't has gone back to the GOOD OLD DAYS of Monopolies and we are all cattle.  They care VERY little about leisure traveler and all about business.  Just look at how the Medallian Rewards have gone - to $$ spent.

Hotels really have an interest in keeping their customers at EVERY City they arrive in and must be competitive.  

Again just my opinion


----------



## SueDonJ (Nov 17, 2015)

LisaRex said:


> ... What further complicates this latest merger is the former affiliations between TSs and hotels.  The former Starwood timeshare division spun itself off from Starwood but retained the "Sheraton" and "Westin" monikers (for a huge fee).  II will own that branch.  Marriott hotels, which is still affiliated with Marriott TSs company, will now own the Starwood hotels, but will not be affiliated with Starwood TSs. ...



A minor correction - Marriott, Int'l spun off its timeshare division to a separate company, Marriott Vacations Worldwide, back in 2011.  The only affiliations between the timeshare and hotel companies is a franchise/naming rights agreement for which MVW pays MI a significant fee, and continuing Marriott Rewards membership and benefits for the timeshare owners.

When the Starwood timeshare division is spun off to Interval Leisure Group, it appears that it will be a very similar arrangement to what's in place now between MVW and MI.  And as explained to me by other Marriott TUGgers, when the Starwood hotels are acquired by MI (which apparently can't/won't happen unless the Starwood timeshare spin-off goes through) at that point the franchise/naming rights fee will be paid by ILG to MI.


----------



## LisaRex (Nov 17, 2015)

Here's an article discussing just what we've been discussing: 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/must-starwood-elites-high-life-171904387.html

The biggest news, I suppose, is confirmation that the programs will not remain separate: 

"No details have been released yet on what it means for the loyalty programs but Marriott CEO Arne Sorenson says 'we will take the best of both programs and make sure the bests are preserved.'"


----------



## YYJMSP (Nov 17, 2015)

vistana101 said:


> I would definitely not be happy about the loss of SPG privileges and conversion options. I took a look at some of the info on the SVN site about the Interval acquisition and I saw this:



Got a "personalized" email with the following:



> Dear Owner,
> 
> Earlier this week, Starwood Hotels & Resorts (Starwood) announced that they are joining with Marriott International to form the world’s largest hotel company, creating a marriage of the best in innovation and execution.
> 
> ...



Nothing about  what happens to Elite-level benefits, other than the SPG Platinum, but that's kinda expected at this early stage in the game.


----------



## DanCali (Nov 17, 2015)

*Point Value*

According to The Points Guy the ratio should be 3 to 1 or even 4 to 1.

http://thepointsguy.com/2014/05/what-is-a-point-or-mile-worth-new-monthly-valuation-series/.

I tend to agree. I have quite a few points in both programs (400K+ in Starwood and 600K+ with Marriott) and you get a much bigger bang for your Starpoints. A free Westin night costs 10K-12K points and a comparable Marriott branded hotel is 30K-35K.

Also, excluding status bonus, Marriott gives you 10 points per dollar for stays while Starwood gives you 2(?). Marriott's credit card gives you 5 points per dollar charged at Marriott while Starwood gives you 2.


----------



## dioxide45 (Nov 17, 2015)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> Is there a chart out there with the different Marriott ViSA cards and what they offer?  I might have to upgrade.
> 
> I'm still sad.  We stayed in Portland, Oregon at the Nines. * We stayed for 5 nights on concierge level for 80,000 points.   If I were to stay at a Marriott hotel on the Waterfront in Portland I would have to 140,000 points.*  So, this is where the points devalue for me.  You can never use rewards points to stay concierge level with Marriott.  I've only been able to upgrade by paying cash.  If I want to stay at the 80,000 point level in Portland I would have to stay at a Fairfield Inn.
> 
> ...



I think you need to look at the earnings rates. For Marriott you get 10 points per dollar. At Starwood I think I read that you get 2? So in order to stay at the Marriott, you would have to spend only $14,000 to earn those 140,000 points to stay at the Marriott hotel on the Waterfront in Portland. For those 80,000 SPG points, you would actually have to spend $40,000 at Starwood hotels to get that same stay. 

The big benefit comes up with the credit card. If you have the Marriott card you can usually find promos of 50,000-70,000 signup bonus points from Chase and then 1 point per dollar for non Marriott spending. The SPG American Express you only get 25,000 signup bonus but do earn the same 1 point per dollar. So credit card spending is where SPG has Marriott beat.

Comparing their lowest tier hotels. Marriott's costs 7,500 Marriott Rewards Points. Requiring only $750 in spending at a Marriott hotel. To stay at the lowest tier Starwood that costs 3,000 points, you have to spend $1,500 at Starwood hotels.

If you are simply comparing program to program and excluding the credit cards, it seems that Marriott's program has a better redemption rate.


----------



## JudyS (Nov 17, 2015)

I agree completely with ciscogizmo1. The cost to book a room is NOT similar in StarPoints and in Marriott Reward Points. 7500 (the lowest cost for a room using Marriott Reward Points during most time periods) is not "very similar" to 3000 (the lowest cost for a room using StarPoints, year-round.) Instead, it is more than twice as much.

And, as ciscogizmo1 said, StarPoints offers a discount in the form of a 5th night free. There is also a further discount available in StarPoints if one books 5 nights (in hotel categories 3 or 4) at the same time as transferring 50,000 miles to an airline. This program is called "Nights and Flights" and it's an excellent deal if you want some airline miles as well as a hotel room.

Of course, Marriott *could* convert StarPoints to Marriott Reward Points at a 1:1 ratio. But if Marriott does that, it won't be because the value of a StarPoint is similar to the value of a Marriott Reward Point. It will be because Marriott is greedy.



NNerland said:


> Please remember that they signed multi million dollar, multi year contracts to continue the licensing use of Westin, Sheraton...etc.....
> 
> ....But hardly one person has talked about how Marriott admitted WHY they bought SPG -- Platform, Global Presence, Website/Tech/Ap
> 
> Finally - can we please stop comparing a Hotel Merger with an AIRLINE MERGER.   Hotels are NOT Monopoly's and they have a HUGE incentive to reward their customers.   Airlines OWN GATES and OWN YOU as a customer based on where you HUB FROM -- Hotels must win your business WHERE YOU GO.  I do like some more "value" options when traveling to cities that don't have SPG.   But when traveling you still have MILLIONS of hotel rooms to choose from when you end in a city -- NOT THE CASE WITH AIRLINES.....The Gov't has gone back to the GOOD OLD DAYS of Monopolies and we are all cattle.  They care VERY little about leisure traveler and all about business.  Just look at how the Medallian Rewards have gone - to $$ spent....


Very good points!

I did in fact see that the Marriott CEO said that one of the main things that made Starwood attractive to Marriott was the Starwood Preferred Guest (aka SPG aka StarPoint) loyalty program. 

If Marriott does a massive devaluation of StarPoints, they will be shooting themselves in the foot. I'll bet that not only are SPG members more loyal than the typical Marriott Reward member, they are more affluent, too. Of course, companies have shot themselves in the foot before. (Remember "New Coke"?) So, I'm still concerned that a massive devaluation of StarPoints may be coming eventually. But, I don't think it's guaranteed.


----------



## JudyS (Nov 17, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> ...
> If you are simply comparing program to program and excluding the credit cards, it seems that Marriott's program has a better redemption rate.


This may be true, but acquiring points through credit cards is way easier than acquiring points by actual hotel stays. Virtually all of my StarPoints come from credit card use. (As a timeshare owner, I hardly ever stay at hotels.) 

If you stay at a Starwood hotel and charge the cost to your Amex SPG credit card, the earn rate gets closer to Marriott's. Base SPG members get 4 StarPoints total per dollar spent if they stay at a Starwood property and charge it to their Amex SPG credit card. All Elite SPG members get at least 5 (I'm not sure if some categories of Elite get more.) 

If you own a StarWood timeshare purchased directly from the developer, you're Elite in SPG. And, it can actually make sense to buy a developer Starwood purchase, so many TUG members are SPG Elite.


----------



## dioxide45 (Nov 17, 2015)

JudyS said:


> This may be true, but acquiring points through credit cards is way easier than acquiring points by actual hotel stays. Virtually all of my StarPoints come from credit card use. (As a timeshare owner, I hardly ever stay at hotels.)
> 
> If you stay at a Starwood hotel and charge the cost to your Amex SPG credit card, the earn rate gets closer to Marriott's. Base SPG members get 4 StarPoints total per dollar spent if they stay at a Starwood property and charge it to their Amex SPG credit card. All Elite SPG members get at least 5 (I'm not sure if some categories of Elite get more.)
> 
> If you own a StarWood timeshare purchased directly from the developer, you're Elite in SPG. And, it can actually make sense to buy a developer Starwood purchase, so many TUG members are SPG Elite.



The same though exists for the Marriott credit card. If you have that, you earn an additional 5 points per dollar at Marriott hotels. So you actually earn 17 pionts per dollar (10 for the base spending, 5 for the credit card and an additional 2 because the credit card gets you to Marriott silver where you actually earn 12 point per dollar on hotel stays.

The credit card for every day spending is where the value is in the SPG program. Earning points on hotel stays, it seems that Marriott has SPG beat IMO.


----------



## YYJMSP (Nov 17, 2015)

NNerland said:


> Please remember that they signed multi million dollar, multi year contracts to continue the licensing use of Westin, Sheraton...etc.
> 
> In these deals, which all cost us money, they are done to ensure the continued value play.  Will the points be worth as much, one can argue we have to wait and see - but to even insinuate they will be dropped is insane.
> 
> Their entire value proposition of their network GOES OUT THE WINDOW - and thus WHY they signed these deals that go into play in selling their developer assets.



I expect that they signed up for the right to continue using those names as a brand, nothing more -- I would be surprised if there was anything in those agreements about SPG points, status, etc.


----------



## YYJMSP (Nov 17, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> I think you need to look at the earnings rates. For Marriott you get 10 points per dollar. At Starwood I think I read that you get 2? So in order to stay at the Marriott, you would have to spend only $14,000 to earn those 140,000 points to stay at the Marriott hotel on the Waterfront in Portland. For those 80,000 SPG points, you would actually have to spend $40,000 at Starwood hotels to get that same stay.
> 
> The big benefit comes up with the credit card. If you have the Marriott card you can usually find promos of 50,000-70,000 signup bonus points from Chase and then 1 point per dollar for non Marriott spending. The SPG American Express you only get 25,000 signup bonus but do earn the same 1 point per dollar. So credit card spending is where SPG has Marriott beat.
> 
> ...



Elite levels of SPG earn more points, so the more you stay, the more you get.

If you're SPG Platinum and stay at least 75 nights, a year you get 4pts/USD.  Factor in you choosing the points as your welcome amenity, the Make A Green Choice program, various promotions constantly going on, it's not unreasonable to get in the range of 10pts/USD or higher on most paid stays.

I find I routinely earn 1000+ SPG points per night on $100/nt stays (which also includes breakfast and evening snacks :whoopie


----------



## dioxide45 (Nov 17, 2015)

YYJMSP said:


> Elite levels of SPG earn more points, so the more you stay, the more you get.
> 
> If you're SPG Platinum and stay at least 75 nights, a year you get 4pts/USD.  Factor in you choosing the points as your welcome amenity, the Make A Green Choice program, various promotions constantly going on, it's not unreasonable to get in the range of 10pts/USD or higher on most paid stays.
> 
> I find I routinely earn 1000+ SPG points per night on $100/nt stays (which also includes breakfast and evening snacks :whoopie



I was comparing the base programs because it is really the only way to compare apples to apples. Each program has their promos. There were years where Marriott owners could buy gift cards and get at least the equivalent of 25-30 points per dollar for Marriott stays. Higher tier elite members in Marriott get more points on hotels stays also. A platinum member in Marriott using the credit card is getting a minimum of 20 points per dollar for stays at Marriott hotels with no promos. Those same platinum members in Marriott are getting breakfast too.


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## SMHarman (Nov 17, 2015)

YYJMSP said:


> I expect that they signed up for the right to continue using those names as a brand, nothing more -- I would be surprised if there was anything in those agreements about SPG points, status, etc.


I think you will find that document covers way more than the brand over the door.


----------



## dioxide45 (Nov 17, 2015)

SMHarman said:


> I think you will find that document covers way more than the brand over the door.



Even if it does, I would find it unlikely that it would require that the SPG program to be continued on indefinitely. That would be a deal killer to almost any sale of Starwood Hotels when Starwood was looking to sell the hotel division. The deal likely does include provisions for ILG to buy StarPoints to give to owners for conversion of their weeks and or other outstanding offers they have to give StarPoints to owners.

I think it will be odd for ILG to long term continue to offer Marriott Reward points to Westin and Starwood timeshare owners. It is possible and perhaps likely, but it would be a strange arrangement. I think it is more likely that they will somehow re-brand the Westin and Starwood properties as Hyatt and offer some type of conversion there. Though that is purely speculation.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out for current Starwood owners.


----------



## YYJMSP (Nov 17, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> I think it is more likely that they will somehow re-brand the Westin and Starwood properties as Hyatt and offer some type of conversion there. Though that is purely speculation.



Isn't part of the long-term agreement that they signed (anyone have a pointer to it online?) that they have to maintain the brand affiliation?


----------



## dioxide45 (Nov 18, 2015)

YYJMSP said:


> Isn't part of the long-term agreement that they signed (anyone have a pointer to it online?) that they have to maintain the brand affiliation?



You are likely right, and that would make sense given that Starwood would want that long term revenue.


----------



## thinze3 (Nov 18, 2015)

*Here's the Marriott announcement via email*

_As a valued member, we're excited to share the news that Marriott International will join together with Starwood Hotels & Resorts to create the world's largest hotel company. For our Marriott Rewards members, this will mean even more choices in even more places, giving you access to 1.1 million rooms across 5,500 hotels in more than 100 countries. 

Marriott Rewards and Starwood Preferred Guest (SPG) are among the industry's most-awarded loyalty programs, and they should be even stronger when the companies merge. Our programs and brands complement each other well, and we intend to draw upon the best of both programs to provide more value for our guests and hotels. 

This is the start of a long journey as we combine our two companies. For now, we remain separate, and there is no change to your Marriott Rewards program status, your Rewards points or your existing reservations. You will continue to earn Rewards points and elite stay/night credit for your stays, and bonus points for any promotions in which are you are participating. There is no change to how you manage your Rewards account or book reservations.

Over the coming months, as we have more to share we'll be sure to reach out to you by e-mail, at marriottrewards.com and via twitter (@MarriottRewards). In the meantime, we remain at your service wherever you need us—whether in our hotels, at marriottrewards.com, the Marriott mobile app, or via our Customer Care Centers. 

All my best, 


Arne Sorenson
President and Chief Executive Officer 
Marriott International, Inc._


----------



## okwiater (Nov 18, 2015)

NNerland said:


> Please remember that they signed multi million dollar, multi year contracts to continue the licensing use of Westin, Sheraton...etc.
> 
> In these deals, which all cost us money, they are done to ensure the continued value play. Will the points be worth as much, one can argue we have to wait and see - but to even insinuate they will be dropped is insane.
> 
> ...



^^ This

 Hotels are not airlines and have to compete not only with other chains but also with individuals through platforms like Airbnb. The considerations for a functional hotel loyalty program are vastly different from those of an airline loyalty program. Is it possible that SPG conversions will be massively devalued? Yes, of course. But if Marriott is serious about remaining competitive in this rapidly changing space, they would be smart to use this opportunity to comprehensively restructure their rewards program to stave off defections. They didn't pay $12 billion to acquire a bunch of customers in order to immediately piss them off and drive them to another lodging provider.

 How will this affect Starwood timeshare owners who want to convert to Starpoints? It's way too early to say, other than that "conversion to Starpoints" is a huge component of an effective sales presentation, and ILG is in the business of selling timeshares at developer prices. I have no doubt that ILG's licensing agreement contains provisions to ensure that tool stays in their toolbox.


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## NNerland (Nov 18, 2015)

okwiater said:


> ^^ This
> 
> Hotels are not airlines and have to compete not only with other chains but also with individuals through platforms like Airbnb. The considerations for a functional hotel loyalty program are vastly different from those of an airline loyalty program. Is it possible that SPG conversions will be massively devalued? Yes, of course. But if Marriott is serious about remaining competitive in this rapidly changing space, they would be smart to use this opportunity to comprehensively restructure their rewards program to stave off defections. They didn't pay $12 billion to acquire a bunch of customers in order to immediately piss them off and drive them to another lodging provider.
> 
> How will this affect Starwood timeshare owners who want to convert to Starpoints? It's way too early to say, other than that "conversion to Starpoints" is a huge component of an effective sales presentation, and ILG is in the business of selling timeshares at developer prices. I have no doubt that ILG's licensing agreement contains provisions to ensure that tool stays in their toolbox.




I agree - I would also be SHOCKED if their Branding (as mentioned by a few previous posts) are all the the SVO is paying for in the Long Term.  Name is worth something - but the "hotel" is the ONLY THING the NETWORK is worth.  Lets be honest you buy where you go, so going to other resorts doesn't happen as often as convincing one the NETWORK conversion.

I would NEVER have bought into a 19 resort network - when you can buy in to others much, much larger.  I bought into the HOTEL Conversion, Home Resort, Other fallbacks and expansion for Resorts, AND Interval International.   

We all PAY for these features and it is in THEIR best interest to keep them in tact -- ESPECIALLY with expansion.


----------



## SMHarman (Nov 18, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> Even if it does, I would find it unlikely that it would require that the SPG program to be continued on indefinitely. That would be a deal killer to almost any sale of Starwood Hotels when Starwood was looking to sell the hotel division. The deal likely does include provisions for ILG to buy StarPoints to give to owners for conversion of their weeks and or other outstanding offers they have to give StarPoints to owners.
> 
> I think it will be odd for ILG to long term continue to offer Marriott Reward points to Westin and Starwood timeshare owners. It is possible and perhaps likely, but it would be a strange arrangement. I think it is more likely that they will somehow re-brand the Westin and Starwood properties as Hyatt and offer some type of conversion there. Though that is purely speculation.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how it all plays out for current Starwood owners.


True. Subject to change and all that. 

But I would expect that while the successor to HOT maintains a reward program VVE has access to it.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 18, 2015)

NNerland said:


> I agree - I would also be SHOCKED if their Branding (as mentioned by a few previous posts) are all the the SVO is paying for in the Long Term.  Name is worth something - but the "hotel" is the ONLY THING the NETWORK is worth.  Lets be honest you buy where you go, so going to other resorts doesn't happen as often as convincing one the NETWORK conversion.
> 
> I would NEVER have bought into a 19 resort network - when you can buy in to others much, much larger.  I bought into the HOTEL Conversion, Home Resort, Other fallbacks and expansion for Resorts, AND Interval International.
> 
> We all PAY for these features and it is in THEIR best interest to keep them in tact -- ESPECIALLY with expansion.



Prepare to be shocked.  Or, in other words, hope for the best but prepare for the worst.  Many of the Marriott TUGgers take full advantage of the Marriott Rewards and timeshare affiliation but I don't think any of us would say that our "best interest" is the primary driving factor for any of the Marriott companies involved.  The governing docs give them leeway to change the program to the detriment of its members and they've proven time and time again that they'll do it.

MI and Marriott Rewards have a history (as most customer loyalty programs do) of devaluing the program in certain aspects while increasing it in others.  Over the years they've added higher hotel tiers on a number of occasions and they routinely re-value the tier levels of specific properties based on redemption award supply and demand.  They've also ceased offering the more lucrative Travel Packages while increasing the Points requirements for replacement travel packages and airline miles.  All the while, the amount of MRP's that are given to the timeshare owners in exchange for their eligible* Weeks/Points has remained constant as the amount specified in the Addendum to the purchase as it was originally sold.

In your shoes I'd expect the SPG program and timeshare affiliation to continue in one form or another when everything shakes out, but I wouldn't at all expect it to remain as is.

* With Marriott Weeks, only those purchased direct from the developer, those purchased from the official Marriott Resales Operations, and those enrolled in the Destination Club are eligible for the MRP Exchange option; Weeks purchased on any external resale markets are not eligible.  With Marriott Points, the MRP Exchange option appears to follow the life of the Points upon resale.


----------



## okwiater (Nov 18, 2015)

"Buy where you want to go" holds true now more than ever. As a recent 5* Elite owner, I will be sad if some of the perks go away -- or become irrelevant due to devaluation -- but even in the worst case scenario I will be more than happy to use and rent the properties I own.


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## Henry M. (Nov 18, 2015)

I very much agree! 

When I bought my properties I figured that whatever happens to SVN, and the association with Starwood, they were very nice places that would likely be maintained by whoever would take them over. The important thing is that they were located where I wanted to go, and I would be happy if I couldn't trade or otherwise exchange with another location.


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## vistana101 (Nov 18, 2015)

Glad to see SVO sent out the email reassurance about gold and platinum status as part of being in SVN, but it will be interesting to see what happens throughout the next couple months/years. Also, are the new timeshares going to be Vistana Signature Experiences as previously announced? Or has the name changed now that Interval has come along.


----------



## cubigbird (Nov 18, 2015)

vistana101 said:


> Glad to see SVO sent out the email reassurance about gold and platinum status as part of being in SVN, but it will be interesting to see what happens throughout the next couple months/years. Also, are the new timeshares going to be Vistana Signature Experiences as previously announced? Or has the name changed now that Interval has come along.



Assuming SPG merges into MR, how would this logistically work with the timeshares?  ILG will own the timeshares and Marriott would be a separate company entirely.  How would Marriott allow ILG to grant gold elite status to developer purchases seeing ILG is a completely separate (and unaffilliated) company??? 

For those of us that do have SPG gold, I hope that they DON'T map to MR silver.  That would be a MAJOR devaluation and MR Silver can be had easily with the Chase MR Visa.


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 18, 2015)

Improved flexibility with an associated cost, and a decrease in relative quality for the Consumer.
Perceived improvement in bottom-line for the Corporation.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 18, 2015)

cubigbird said:


> Assuming SPG merges into MR, how would this logistically work with the timeshares?  ILG will own the timeshares and Marriott would be a separate company entirely.  How would Marriott allow ILG to grant gold elite status to developer purchases seeing ILG is a completely separate (and unaffilliated) company??? ...



The same way it works now for Marriott timeshare owners. Marriott Rewards is the customer loyalty program affiliated with the hotel company Marriott, Intl, and Marriott Vacations Worldwide is the entirely separate timeshare company following its spin-off in 2011.  Still the affiliate/franchise agreements allow the timeshare owners to continue with the customer loyalty program.

Think of the difference between MVW and Vistana only in terms of the company names - both are timeshare divisions of hotel companies that were/will be spun off to entirely separate companies. MVW is allowed to use "Marriott" in its name following its separation from MI, while your new timeshare company is not being allowed to keep "Starwood" in its name after it's spun off.

Whatever form the SPG customer loyalty program takes under the Marriot, Intl umbrella (after the timeshare spin-off to Vistana, the spin-off acquisition by ILG, and the Starwood hotel company acquisition by MI,) there is precedence in the Marriott transactions process between the separate Marriott hotel and timeshare companies that can be followed in similar fashion through the Starwood transactions process.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 18, 2015)

cubigbird said:


> Assuming SPG merges into MR, how would this logistically work with the timeshares?  ILG will own the timeshares and Marriott would be a separate company entirely.  How would Marriott allow ILG to grant gold elite status to developer purchases seeing ILG is a completely separate (and unaffilliated) company???
> 
> For those of us that do have SPG gold, I hope that they DON'T map to MR silver.  That would be a MAJOR devaluation and MR Silver can be had easily with the Chase MR Visa.



All that is happening is that the new company will be paying a fee to buy points and even elite status from the combined rewards program.

Just like Chase and American Express buy points from Marriott Rewards and SPG respectively. Marriott Vacations Worldwide and Vistana Signature Experiences will buy points from the combined program. Those points aren't free that they give to owners who convert their weeks to points in the reward program.

Marriott Vacations Worldwide has a similar program where they give new buyers achieving a certain ownership level free gold or platinum elite status in Marriott Rewards. While Marriott Vacations Worldwide carries the Marriott name, they are still a separate company. They have to pay Marriott Rewards a fee to give those owners that gold or platinum elite status. It really won't be any different for Vistana Signature Experiences.

The brands that Vistana Signature Experiences sells will in the future become Marriott brands. The points programs will at some point likely be combined. When a Westin or Sheraton vacation club owner owner converts to points or gets elite status, Vistana Signature Experiences will just pay Marriott Rewards instead of SPG.


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## vistana101 (Nov 19, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott Vacations Worldwide has a similar program where they give new buyers achieving a certain ownership level free gold or platinum elite status in Marriott Rewards.



How does this work for Marriott? Is there a vacation club point requirement to get Gold with MR? Or do all owners who bought developer receive an elite MR level?


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## dioxide45 (Nov 19, 2015)

vistana101 said:


> How does this work for Marriott? Is there a vacation club point requirement to get Gold with MR? Or do all owners who bought developer receive an elite MR level?



I don't know how it works under MVCI's new ownership levels, but under under the three old MVCI levels, if you bought enough points to take you up to Premier Owner, they made you Marriott Rewards Gold Elite for three years. If you bought enough points that it took you to Premier Plus, then you got Marriott Rewards Platinum Elite status for three years. Not every owner that buys points gets elite status in Marriott Rewards.


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## LisaRex (Nov 19, 2015)

okwiater said:


> "Buy where you want to go" holds true now more than ever. As a recent 5* Elite owner, I will be sad if some of the perks go away -- or become irrelevant due to devaluation -- but even in the worst case scenario I will be more than happy to use and rent the properties I own.



I don't know.  I think buying where you want to go makes definite sense to people who want to return to the same place again and again and again and again.  For people like me, who get bored with the same locations, a robust exchange program is essential to ownership. I sold WKORV and bought SVV in part because I couldn't stomach exchanging an OF unit. (NOW that OF owners get more SOs, it makes more sense.)   

So I'm actually still holding out hope that an acquisition by II will actually work out okay, despite its clunky and buggy website.  I actually had SVV on the market because I'd grown tired of the Starwood network.  If a buyer comes along, I'll sell because I think that both Marriott and Starwood have ruined their timeshares. They used to be fairly straightforward and easy to understand.  With all these added layers of complexity and uncertainty, they've made ownership more of a pain than a delight.  That's a shame.


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## vistana101 (Nov 19, 2015)

After looking at some more hotels/categories, it seems that Starwood is a bit more generous in terms of categorizing their hotels. If you look at Marriott, they value some Courtyards and Fairfield Inns as category 8 and 9 hotels, which seems a bit crazy to me. You are also constrained to mostly their lower tier, budget hotels (Residence Inn, Fairfield Inn, Courtyard, Springhill Suites etc.) until category 7, when you start to see a decent (not huge) selection of higher level hotels with the Marriott brand and a few brands above that. 

I looked at a lot of their Florida hotels, where you can't find a nice, truly beachfront property (similar to many of the Starwood hotels in Florida) until category 8 or 9. I also noticed that the Boston Marriott Copley Place is listed as category 8 (out of 9), while the adjacent Westin is only a category 5 (40,000 vs. 16,000 points in prime season).

On top of all this, the Ritz Carlton branded hotels are in a whole different tier system (as noted before on this thread), ranging from 30,000 to 70,000 points per night. 

Seems like in general, a lot of properties require a very high point redemption.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 19, 2015)

It occurred to me after just posting in the related Marriott forum thread that you Starwood TUGgers might have some answers.  (DOH! Not exactly a lightbulb moment.  )

With so many moving parts it's difficult to try to figure out how at the end of all the machinations the customer loyalty program - Marriott Rewards - will work, especially as to the affiliations between what will then be two timeshare companies separate from each other and separate from the hotel company which will administer the loyalty program, Marriott Int'l.

First is the re-naming of Starwood's timeshare division, SVO, to Vistana Signature Experiences.  Then - or in conjunction with? - is the spin-off of VSE to a subsidiary company of Interval Leisure Group.  Then is MI's acquisition of Starwood Hotels et al business.  All of the press releases indicate that at this point it's only the first step that's expected to be completed 4th QTR '15, the second by 2nd QTR '16, and then the last is contingent on the second being completed.  IMO it's kind of odd that no impediments to any of the processes have been theorized on TUG ...

So at this point, are you SVN/VSE owners seeing any indication that the first is complete?  Other than the notices announcing the upcoming changes, have your official notices relative to your ownerships (emails, reservation and other transaction confirmations, etc) begun referencing the VSE name yet?  Any changes to your online owner account portals?


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## dsmrp (Nov 19, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> It occurred to me after just posting in the related Marriott forum thread that you Starwood TUGgers might have some answers.  (DOH! Not exactly a lightbulb moment.  )
> 
> With so many moving parts it's difficult to try to figure out how at the end of all the machinations the customer loyalty program - Marriott Rewards - will work, especially as to the affiliations between what will then be two timeshare companies separate from each other and separate from the hotel company which will administer the loyalty program, Marriott Int'l.
> 
> ...



Nope I haven't seen any name changes in the emails I've been getting.
It's all still _'Starwood Vacation Network'_, and the email address is 
_starwoodvacationownership@starwoodvo.com_ .
If Starwood for accounting purposes moved the vacation ownership biz to VSE, it's still all opaque to me   Normally I'd say 'transparent' as to users, but not in this case :rofl:


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## sjlola (Nov 19, 2015)

*Lots of speculation, long wait for answers*

The Starwood Flyertalk Forum has a 1000+ post thread on this, but as a 5* Elite with Lifetime SPG Plat, I was curious as to what Tuggers with similar status were thinking. On reading those posts on Flyertalk, here's what SPG folks are thinking, and I tend to agree:

1. We'll be lucky if our Starpoints convert to Marriott Rewards at anything better than a 2:1 ratio

2. Lifetime status for SPG members will likely not transfer over to MR. A 1-level demotion is speculated (SPG Plats become MR Gold, etc.)

3. Start using/converting your stockpiled Starpoints now

4. Starwood Amex is likely toast as Marriott has a strong, long-term relationship with Chase Visa

5. SPG Elite members will likely lose out in this merger

6. No reason to panic yet as the merger hasn't been approved yet and it will take at least a year to work out any consolidation of benefits in the loyalty programs

Lots of poking at frequent travelers on the Flyertalk forum calling them whiners for decrying the loss of benefits and devaluation of Starpoints for hotel stays their employers paid for. I'm a bit concerned, as are some of the other posters here, about the ongoing ability to convert SO to SP. As we paid for the weeks in the timeshare, we have serious skin in the game and many SVO owners did so specifically to be able to stay at Starwood Hotels. As I'm not crazy about Marriott hotels, I suspect we will be converting to hotel points less frequently and using our 4 weeks a year at hour home resorts at WKORV/N, which is where we like to vacation anyway. We've accumulated too many Starpoints, so it's likely we'll transfer half to airline miles while we still can (and get the bonus) and make a couple of reservations for 2016 to St. Regis NYC & Kauai.


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## YYJMSP (Nov 19, 2015)

sjlola said:


> 6. No reason to panic yet as the merger hasn't been approved yet and it will take at least a year to work out any consolidation of benefits in the loyalty programs



This is the only point to consider right now, everything else is speculation and needless panic.

We don't know what is going to happen, and I suspect nothing will affect us in 2016 (too late to change, and don't we all have the year already booked anyways?), but there will be changes in 2017, and we'll all have to adapt...

Of course I'm hopeful those changes are neutral or positive in impact on us, as we have a lot invested in the value added features of SVN and Eliteness, beyond the properties themselves.  In theory ILG could operate the equivalent of SVN including StarOptions and SPG interaction (I'm sure SVO pays for our SPG benefits and there will be continued demand for SPG members to get to our properties, so why couldn't ILG do the same as what we have now)

My other half is convinced the world has ended, to which I say "get a grip"


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 19, 2015)

I agree that this is no reason to panic, BUT I would recommend against putting any more skin in the game.


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## duke (Nov 19, 2015)

sjlola said:


> We've accumulated too many Starpoints, so it's likely we'll transfer half to airline miles while we still can (and get the bonus) and make a couple of reservations for 2016 to St. Regis NYC & Kauai.



What "Bonus" is currently available for converting StarPoints to Airline miles?


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## dioxide45 (Nov 19, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> It occurred to me after just posting in the related Marriott forum thread that you Starwood TUGgers might have some answers.  (DOH! Not exactly a lightbulb moment.  )
> 
> With so many moving parts it's difficult to try to figure out how at the end of all the machinations the customer loyalty program - Marriott Rewards - will work, especially as to the affiliations between what will then be two timeshare companies separate from each other and separate from the hotel company which will administer the loyalty program, Marriott Int'l.
> 
> ...



I am pretty sure the spinoff of VSE isn't completed. THe spinoff of Starwoods's timeshare division was announced in February 2011. The original plan would have been to issue shares in the new VSE based on the value of the timeshare division in Starwood Hotel and Resorts. Now they will spinoff and sell the timeshare division to ILG all in one transaction. At which time ILG will issue new shares to current Starwood shareholders. Starwood Shareholders will own 55% of ILG when the deal is done.

The original spinoff may have been set to complete before the new 2Q16 date of the new expected close of the Starwood/ILG transaction. However, now given that the timeshare division has been sold, it likely delayed that completion.

So, until the deal is completed in 2Q16, I wouldn't expect owners to see anything with the new Vistana Signature Experiences name, since that company won't exist as a wholly owned subsidiary until the transaction is closed.


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## sjlola (Nov 19, 2015)

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the bonus to transfer Starpoints to airline miles is 25%; one of the best in the business which is why many are upset over the thought of losing the SPG Amex. Apparently, the SPG Amex is one of the most lucrative affiliations for American Express.


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## duke (Nov 19, 2015)

sjlola said:


> Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the bonus to transfer Starpoints to airline miles is 25%; one of the best in the business which is why many are upset over the thought of losing the SPG Amex. Apparently, the SPG Amex is one of the most lucrative affiliations for American Express.



Yes, I know, I was hoping there was and additional AA bonus promotion.....


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 19, 2015)

duke said:


> Yes, I know, I was hoping there was and additional AA bonus promotion.....



Hi duke - the AA bonus program ended a few months ago.  I converted a bunch of SPs to AA miles - glad I did...


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## YYJMSP (Nov 19, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> I agree that this is no reason to panic, BUT I would recommend against putting any more skin in the game.



Agreed, we were going to buy a WSJ (picked up an Explorer for the bonus points) but are holding off on pulling the trigger until this all sorts out...


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## LobsterHunter (Nov 19, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> Hi duke - the AA bonus program ended a few months ago.  I converted a bunch of SPs to AA miles - glad I did...



David, so did I, and now I'm not so happy since AA just greatly devalued their entire program.  Just google _American Airlines Devaluation _ if you want to see how bad, now they are like Delta & United.  Didn't waste any time after their merger w/US Air


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 19, 2015)

I used most of our miles to fly from SFO to STT via MIA next June - 331 days ahead to get Exit row going out (I have AA status thru work) with 1st class coming home (2-stop, but only 30Kpp)


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## mnmrsjjp (Nov 19, 2015)

Hilton has Visa and Amex options,why couldn't Marriot?

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk


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## cubigbird (Nov 19, 2015)

AA also has Citi and Barclaycard as a result of the AA-US merger.  It can be done.....


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## dioxide45 (Nov 19, 2015)

cubigbird said:


> AA also has Citi and Barclaycard as a result of the AA-US merger.  It can be done.....



If what I Googled is correct, the Barclaycard converted to an Aviator card and they no longer offer any kind of US Airways or American Airlines credit card. So only one credit card company for the AAdvantage credit card, Citibank.

_ETA: When Southwest took over AirTran, my wife's Barclay's AirTran credit card was sold to Chase._


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## Fairwinds (Nov 20, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> I used most of our miles to fly from SFO to STT via MIA next June - 331 days ahead to get Exit row going out (I have AA status thru work) with 1st class coming home (2-stop, but only 30Kpp)



That seems like a great deal. I've just recently begun to use AA and haven't used the rewards yet. I have been using Delta for years and it seems their coach seats now begin at 35k and those seem rare.


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## gkbiiii (Nov 21, 2015)

okwiater said:


> "Buy where you want to go" holds true now more than ever. As a recent 5* Elite owner, I will be sad if some of the perks go away -- or become irrelevant due to devaluation -- but even in the worst case scenario I will be more than happy to use and rent the properties I own.



All your Five-Star & SVO benefits, will go way including:
Lifetime SPG Platinum
Ability to transfer points to SPG
SPG points to airline miles conversions 
Easier access to Harborside at Atlantis
Five-Star VIP Onsite Benefits


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## Sicnarf (Nov 21, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> If what I Googled is correct, the Barclaycard converted to an Aviator card and they no longer offer any kind of US Airways or American Airlines credit card. So only one credit card company for the AAdvantage credit card, Citibank.
> 
> _ETA: When Southwest took over AirTran, my wife's Barclay's AirTran credit card was sold to Chase._



The Red Aviator card is Barclay's equivalent of Citi Advantage  card.  Both cards have exactly the same AA benefits.


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## Negma (Nov 21, 2015)

gkbiiii said:


> All your Five-Star & SVO benefits, will go way including:
> Lifetime SPG Platinum
> Ability to transfer points to SPG
> SPG points to airline miles conversions
> ...



Based on what?


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 21, 2015)

I think the Internet term is trolling.


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## Negma (Nov 21, 2015)

Thats what it looked like to me.......


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## Helios (Nov 21, 2015)

gkbiiii said:


> All your Five-Star & SVO benefits, will go way including:
> Lifetime SPG Platinum
> Ability to transfer points to SPG
> SPG points to airline miles conversions
> ...



Easier access to Harborside Atlantis?  Not sure what you mean.

IMHO, lifetime plat will go away, I seriously doubt it will be replaced by Marriott's Plat which is worse than SPG.


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## John Cummings (Nov 21, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> I think the Internet term is trolling.



I doubt that somebody who has 140 posts on TUG is a troll.


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## Helios (Nov 22, 2015)

The sad thing is that some of the items that were mentioned will happen just because of the end of SPG.  I am certainly not happy about it.

Has anyone contacted corporate sales to ask about what they know?  I am thinking about doing it.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 22, 2015)

moto x said:


> The sad thing is that some of the items that were mentioned will happen just because of the end of SPG.  I am certainly not happy about it.
> 
> Has anyone contacted corporate sales to ask about what they know?  I am thinking about doing it.



I am thinking that they don't even know yet. It would have been confusing enough with just the sale of VSE to ILG, now add in the sale of HOT to MAR and you have another entire layer of confusion. No one will know really until the changes are announced. They rarely tell low level sales staff much until they are ready to actually make the changes.


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## Sicnarf (Nov 22, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> I am thinking that they don't even know yet. It would have been confusing enough with just the sale of VSE to ILG, now add in the sale of HOT to MAR and you have another entire layer of confusion. No one will know really until the changes are announced. They rarely tell low level sales staff much until they are ready to actually make the changes.



I concur with dioxide45.  Also I'm quite optimistic that SPG members won't be screwed contrary to the general opinion.  As discussed in the Marriott forum, the relationships amongst the various entities (ILG, VSE, HOT, MAR) are contractual in nature and will not change much after the sale.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 22, 2015)

Sicnarf said:


> I concur with dioxide45.  Also I'm quite optimistic that SPG members won't be screwed contrary to the general opinion.  As discussed in the Marriott forum, the relationships amongst the various entities (ILG, VSE, HOT, MAR) are contractual in nature and will not change much after the sale.



I am not sure how many contracts there really are. More likely agreements. VSE is still part of HOT. Do they really have a contract between each other within the same company? Maybe, maybe not. However, if HOT wants to still sell VSE to ILG, they will work something out. Selling VSE is required in order for MAR to acquire HOT. Obviously a lot can happen between now and when these deals close. so there is still a lot of negotiating left. ILG is going to want to make sure the owners they acquire from HOT in the deal to buy VSE are protected and still receive what they have come to expect. So they are are going to work for that. HOT knows that they need to give ILG what they want in the deal or the HOT/MAR deal falls through and someone has to pony up a lot of money to break the deal.


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## Helios (Nov 22, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure how many contracts there really are. More likely agreements. VSE is still part of HOT. Do they really have a contract between each other within the same company? Maybe, maybe not. However, if HOT wants to still sell VSE to ILG, they will work something out. Selling VSE is required in order for MAR to acquire HOT. Obviously a lot can happen between now and when these deals close. so there is still a lot of negotiating left. ILG is going to want to make sure the owners they acquire from HOT in the deal to buy VSE are protected and still receive what they have come to expect. So they are are going to work for that. HOT knows that they need to give ILG what they want in the deal or the HOT/MAR deal falls through and someone has to pony up a lot of money to break the deal.



I am actually an optimist, but I have a bad feeling about this one.  Like it has been mentioned before, the priority is to make money for stock owners not keep TS owners happy with benefits that were promised under a previous regime. However, I recognize this is a complex issue that is intertwined...

In you opinion, any chance the ILG deal would fall through and MVC would buy SVN?


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## dioxide45 (Nov 22, 2015)

moto x said:


> In you opinion, any chance the ILG deal would fall through and MVC would buy SVN?



Anything is possible, but I don't see this one happening. I think it would have been a good route to go for MVW, but they aren't in the acquisition mode, where ILG certainly was given their recent Hyatt acquisition. 

I think there is a better chance that the HOT/MAR deal falls through. Anything can happen though. Of course, if the ILG/VSE deal doesn't go through then the MAR/HOT deal is also over. Of course, it is always possible that MVC could be acquired by ILG. I don't see that happening since MVC really isn't for sale. Companies aren't bought, they are sold. Can't buy something if it isn't for sale, unless you can talk the current owner in to selling.


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 22, 2015)

John Cummings said:


> I doubt that somebody who has 140 posts on TUG is a troll.



I didn't say Troll - I said trolling... 
meaning putting out a post like that... what was the purpose?


----------



## okwiater (Nov 22, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> I didn't say Troll - I said trolling...
> meaning putting out a post like that... what was the purpose?



You were correct in saying "trolling" -- the post was spurious antagonization based on nothing.

 Yes, it is certainly possible for lifetime SPG Platinum and Starpoints transfers to go away, but those risks were created during the VSE spinoff, not the Marriott acquisition. From a legal & contractual perspective, Marriott's acquisition changes absolutely nothing since they are buying Starwood in its entirety including the Westin & Sheraton brands, to which SVO/VSE/ILG has a long-term exclusive license which includes the ability to provide Elite status and points.

 The only real risk in my mind is points devaluation, which is a problem for all SPG members not just SVO owners. However, notwithstanding Marriott's "responsibility to shareholders," if one of the stated reasons for acquiring Starwood was the value of the SPG program, then it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to simply transform it into Marriott Rewards and obliterate its inherent value. Will we see changes? Yes, almost certainly. But while I don't see Marriott's acquisition of Starwood as a "net positive," I also don't think reality is going to look anything like the pessimistic doom and gloom scenarios being discussed.


----------



## YYJMSP (Nov 22, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> Selling VSE is required in order for MAR to acquire HOT.



Was there something in MAR's statements that the purchase of HOT was dependent on HOT first getting rid of VSE?

I think MAR can still buy HOT and then spin off VSE (isn't SVO a bunch of separate legal companies, all effectively wholly owned subsidiaries of HOT?), and ILG or someone else, or no-one, could buy out VSE.  Or they could just keep VSE.

Who knows... 

Still way too many moving parts and scenarios -- we have wait and see what actually happens before panic sets in.


----------



## SueDonJ (Nov 22, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> I didn't say Troll - I said trolling...
> meaning putting out a post like that... what was the purpose?



Sometimes folks get frustrated and expect the worst.  Sometimes any change is looked at as a bad thing.  Sometimes folks just like to voice their fears to gain power over them.  Sometimes you just need to vent.  TUG's as good a place as any to do it.


----------



## dioxide45 (Nov 22, 2015)

SueDonJ said:


> Sometimes folks get frustrated and expect the worst.  Sometimes any change is looked at as a bad thing.  Sometimes folks just like to voice their fears to gain power over them.  Sometimes you just need to vent.  TUG's as good a place as any to do it.



I think though that this was a non Starwood owner or perhaps lower level owner points out that "your" elite benefits would get removed. So they weren't referring to themselves. Looked more as a way to raise eyebrows than venting or frustration. I think DavidnRobin post #113 is more of an accurate definition.


----------



## SueDonJ (Nov 22, 2015)

YYJMSP said:


> Was there something in MAR's statements that the purchase of HOT was dependent on HOT first getting rid of VSE?
> 
> I think MAR can still buy HOT and then spin off VSE (isn't SVO a bunch of separate legal companies, all effectively wholly owned subsidiaries of HOT?), and ILG or someone else, or no-one, could buy out VSE.  Or they could just keep VSE.
> 
> ...



From the press release on news.marriott.com on 11/16/15:





> ... The transaction is subject to Marriott International and Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide shareholder approvals, completion of Starwood’s planned disposition of its timeshare business, regulatory approvals and the satisfaction of other customary closing conditions.  Assuming receipt of the necessary approvals, the parties expect the transaction to close in mid-2016. ...



MAR spun off its own timeshare division in 2011.  It doesn't appear that they'd want to take the risk of VSE not being spun off in advance of the acquisition.


----------



## Helios (Nov 22, 2015)

YYJMSP said:


> Still way too many moving parts and scenarios -- we have wait and see what actually happens before panic sets in.



Very true, that's the only thing to do now.


----------



## John Cummings (Nov 22, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> I didn't say Troll - I said trolling...
> meaning putting out a post like that... what was the purpose?



Isn't somebody that is trolling a troll? In any event it doesn't matter.


----------



## DeniseM (Nov 22, 2015)

John Cummings said:


> I doubt that somebody who has 140 posts on TUG is a troll.



I think you confusing "shill" and "troll."  A troll posts baloney to stir the doo doo - has nothing to do with the number of posts one has.


***Clarification:  I am not calling anyone a "troll."  

What I'm saying is that a regular TUG member with lots of posts *can still be a troll. * 

When Ridewithme38 posted on a regular basis, I called him a troll about once a week, and he has over 3,000 posts!


----------



## okwiater (Nov 22, 2015)

John Cummings said:


> Isn't somebody that is trolling a troll? In any event it doesn't matter.


No. Someone can lie without being a liar. It's the difference between describing an action vs. describing someone's character.


----------



## okwiater (Nov 22, 2015)

So here's a possibility which hasn't been discussed yet:



> The transaction is subject to Marriott International and Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide shareholder approvals, *completion of Starwood’s planned disposition of its timeshare business,* regulatory approvals and the satisfaction of other customary closing conditions.



Since the ability to convert into Starpoints and grant Elite status has been a critical component of the SVO timeshare salesperson's toolkit, doesn't the Marriott acquisition of Starwood potentially materially devalue the SVO acquisition as well, particularly if SPG is going to be gutted? If so, it seems possible (if unlikely) that this news could unravel the SVO acquisition and thereby lead to the unraveling of the Marriott acquisition as well.


----------



## dioxide45 (Nov 22, 2015)

okwiater said:


> So here's a possibility which hasn't been discussed yet:
> 
> 
> 
> Since the ability to convert into Starpoints and grant Elite status has been a critical component of the SVO timeshare salesperson's toolkit, doesn't the Marriott acquisition of Starwood potentially materially devalue the SVO acquisition as well, particularly if SPG is going to be gutted? If so, it seems possible (if unlikely) that this news could unravel the SVO acquisition and thereby lead to the unraveling of the Marriott acquisition as well.



You would think that there would have been some mention of a possible sale of HOT to MAR when the negotiations were happening between HOT and ILG. I also wonder how involved in the negotiations MAR will be on the VSE transaction, given that they are to be the new owner of HOT.

It would be good to know what ILG thinks of the HOT/MAR transaction. Did they know about it when they announced their acquisition of VSE or were they caught off guard?


----------



## steve b (Nov 22, 2015)

This was exactly my point over on the Marriott Thread.   These co branding deals were made far before the announced acquisition of Starwood Hotels Corp by Marriott.   I also think a brand new consolidated timeshare exchange program run similar to the Destination Club is absolutely on the horizon.  If it weren't for that they never would have done this deal


----------



## Ken555 (Nov 22, 2015)

steve b said:


> This was exactly my point over on the Marriott Thread.   These co branding deals were made far before the announced acquisition of Starwood Hotels Corp by Marriott.   I also think a brand new consolidated timeshare exchange program run similar to the Destination Club is absolutely on the horizon.  If it weren't for that they never would have done this deal




Um...sure. You really think the timeshare business is more important to Marriott than the hotel business? I suggest you look at the numbers.


Sent from my iPad


----------



## gkbiiii (Nov 22, 2015)

Negma said:


> Based on what?



When the merger is complete, most on flyertalk think the SPG guest program will be dissolved and that lifetime status, will not be honored in the new program.  Most of the key benefits are not part of the current Marriott guest program.  

As well, I believe that the interval sale will mean that their is NO longer ANY association to even a new hotel rewards program.


----------



## gkbiiii (Nov 22, 2015)

moto x said:


> Easier access to Harborside Atlantis?  Not sure what you mean.
> 
> IMHO, lifetime plat will go away, I seriously doubt it will be replaced by Marriott's Plat which is worse than SPG.



1.  The ability to use points to book Harborside.
2.  The Starwood priority given by Interval to trade into Harborside.
3.  It is possible that this may remain intact with the Interval sale but: Marriott just bought the Atlantis Resort, it is quite possible that it may soon do a full buyout, of Harborside as well.


----------



## gkbiiii (Nov 22, 2015)

okwiater said:


> You were correct in saying "trolling" -- the post was spurious antagonization based on nothing.  *NO*
> 
> Yes, it is certainly possible for lifetime SPG Platinum and Starpoints transfers to go away, but those risks were created during the VSE spinoff, not the Marriott acquisition. *From a legal & contractual perspective, Marriott's acquisition changes absolutely nothing since they are buying Starwood* in its entirety including the Westin & Sheraton brands, to which SVO/VSE/ILG has a long-term exclusive license which includes the ability to provide Elite status and points.  *NO*
> 
> The only real risk in my mind is points devaluation, which is a problem for all SPG members not just SVO owners. However, notwithstanding Marriott's "responsibility to shareholders," if one of the stated reasons for acquiring Starwood was the value of the SPG program, then it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to simply transform it into Marriott Rewards and obliterate its inherent value. Will we see changes? Yes, almost certainly. But while I don't see Marriott's acquisition of Starwood as a "net positive," I also don't think reality is going to look anything like the pessimistic doom and gloom scenarios being discussed.



By the middle of 2016 Interval International will be the full owner of Starwood Vacation Ownership, NOT Marriott.  I don't see there being ANY relationship with Marriott & Interval with these vacation club properties.  I think the brand names will stay (for a while at least) but as we have seen with the Ritz Carlton properties and others, maybe not.

All this I did not see coming: last week has been a pure disaster, for airline and hotel frequent guest programs!!!


----------



## gkbiiii (Nov 22, 2015)

gkbiiii said:


> By the middle of 2016 Interval International will be the full owner of Starwood Vacation Ownership, NOT Marriott.  I don't see there being ANY relationship with Marriott & Interval with these vacation club properties.  I think the brand names will stay (for a while at least) but as we have seen with the Ritz Carlton properties and others, maybe not.
> 
> All this I did not see coming: last week has been a pure disaster, for airline and hotel frequent guest programs!!!



What I am saying, is not at all, controversial on the flyertalk site.  It is the common consensus.  I predict that Harborside will be sold to Marriott to be re-flagged a Marriott Vacation Club Resort.  This would be an outstanding addition to their international portfolio.


----------



## SueDonJ (Nov 22, 2015)

gkbiiii said:


> ... As well, I believe that the interval sale will mean that their is NO longer ANY association to even a new hotel rewards program.



That's so extreme.  Why do you think so?  IMO the SPG program will be a different animal when it's merged under the Marriott Rewards umbrella on both the hotel and timeshare sides, but there hasn't been any indication that MI intends to sever the affiliation between the the former SPG and the timeshares.  When all is said and done if things go as announced then VSE will be a separate company similar to how MVW is a separate company from MI.  MVW kept the timeshare affiliation with Marriott Rewards when it was spun off of MI; why wouldn't VSE (under the ILG umbrella) be able to?


----------



## SueDonJ (Nov 22, 2015)

gkbiiii said:


> What I am saying, is not at all, controversial on the flyertalk site.  It is the common consensus.  I predict that Harborside will be sold to Marriott to be re-flagged a Marriott Vacation Club Resort.  This would be an outstanding addition to their international portfolio.



Don't get me wrong - this is not at all meant to be a bashing of flyertalk.  I love that site, think it's the absolute best for hotel and air miles information.  But when it comes to timeshares what FT'ers present is not always based on experience.  I wouldn't go looking for a timeshare consensus at FT.


----------



## gkbiiii (Nov 22, 2015)

SPG won't exist by 2017 and by that time, Interval ownership will be fully in control.  Perhaps Interval will make trades within its own trading network better for SVO properties.  I really think, the future will be what Interval has planned for the future.  Really, Marriott is just in this, for the Starwood hotels, so we will see what happens in the future.  But one thing we know (from the Marriott Chairman's recent interview), SPG's days are numbered.

On the positive, I have had great experiences with Interval and maybe there will be some significant benefits, from being owned by them.  If the SVO owners could have lower/no interval fees and higher trading power, this could be a partial win.  

I should note, that gaining the Marriott Rewards Program, is really gaining nothing at all.  So in the end, you loose a dead SPG program and perhaps gain something meaningful with Interval.


----------



## SueDonJ (Nov 22, 2015)

gkbiiii said:


> 1.  The ability to use points to book Harborside.
> 2.  The Starwood priority given by Interval to trade into Harborside.
> 3.  It is possible that this may remain intact with the Interval sale but: Marriott just bought the Atlantis Resort, it is quite possible that it may soon do a full buyout, of Harborside as well.



Marriott Intl. didn't buy Atlantis; they entered into a long-term franchise agreement with the owners that designates Atlantis as a hotel in MI's Autograph Collection.  The overwhelming majority of hotels with Marriott-brands names on them are not owned by MI but managed and/or franchised by MI.

MI is not going to buy Harborside - they've been out of the timeshare business since 2011.  MVW could contract with the HOA (and/or possibly majority ownership?) of Harborside to manage it, but buying it outright doesn't fit in with the whole "asset light" strategy that MVW has been pursuing since it was spun off of MI.


----------



## gkbiiii (Nov 22, 2015)

*On the positive: Interval is a Great Company*

The flyertalk crowd may fair far worse, then the Starwood owners.  Marriott takeover of Starwood is HORRIBLE and the new guest program is bound to mirror that.  The same with the "New & Improved" AAdvantage Program after the merger AA/US.

I think unlike above many (may) grow to like being part of Interval International.  Some of their worldwide properties are outstanding, such as the Marriott Marbella and others.  I really like their offers and sometimes there are really great deals.  Only time will tell, what we get from them in the future.


----------



## dioxide45 (Nov 22, 2015)

gkbiiii said:


> What I am saying, is not at all, controversial on the flyertalk site.  It is the common consensus.  I predict that Harborside will be sold to Marriott to be re-flagged a Marriott Vacation Club Resort.  This would be an outstanding addition to their international portfolio.





gkbiiii said:


> 1.  The ability to use points to book Harborside.
> 2.  The Starwood priority given by Interval to trade into Harborside.
> 3.  It is possible that this may remain intact with the Interval sale but: Marriott just bought the Atlantis Resort, it is quite possible that it may soon do a full buyout, of Harborside as well.



Marriott most certainly did not buy Atlantis. The Atlantis resort affiliatied with Marriott through their Autograph Collection. Atlantis is still independantly owned but operates under a fianchise agreement with Marriott. Really no different than  any other franchise agreement that Marriott has with most of their hotels. It is not uncommon for hotels to change flags at any given time.

Marriott did provide a $100 million loan as part of the agreement, but they didn't take over any ownership of Atlantis. Atlantis is owned by Brookfield Asset Management.

I believe that Harborside was originally built as a partnership between SVN and Kerzner International. Harborside never had the Starwood name on it and Atlantis was never affiliated with Starwood. Kerzner International owned the original property and SVN sold the inventory.

Harborside is not owned by anyone but the owners now. Now VSE could sell the management rights to it I suppose, but the BOD at Harborside would likely have to be willing to affiliate with MVW. I suppose that it is possible, but I don't see it happening. Harborside is one of SVNs premier resorts and a lot of people buy in to the system to have access to it. Dropping Harborside would be a big mistake for ILG/VSE.


----------



## Helios (Nov 22, 2015)

gkbiiii said:


> 1.  The ability to use points to book Harborside.
> 2.  The Starwood priority given by Interval to trade into Harborside.
> 3.  It is possible that this may remain intact with the Interval sale but: Marriott just bought the Atlantis Resort, it is quite possible that it may soon do a full buyout, of Harborside as well.



Ok, this has nothing to do with elite benefits going away because these items are available to all SVN owners with developer purchases, retro purchase, or mandatory resales...


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## SMHarman (Nov 22, 2015)

gkbiiii said:


> What I am saying, is not at all, controversial on the flyertalk site.  It is the common consensus.  I predict that Harborside will be sold to Marriott to be re-flagged a Marriott Vacation Club Resort.  This would be an outstanding addition to their international portfolio.


That would require VVE to choose to sell it. Not Starwood hotels. 
Further, they need to seek it to the separate listed Marriott timeshare entity. Not Marriott hotels.


----------



## dsmrp (Nov 23, 2015)

*Getting a piece of the pie*

Okay going out on a limb here.
After reading the posts last week from the news about Marriott buying Starwood hotels, a certain 70's song got stuck in my head. Maybe because of some posters reaction to the news.  Here's my first and last (?) effort at song parody  I only got half way, maybe someone else could finish up the remaining verses or do a rewrite? or a youtube ?:rofl:
Well hope you enjoy, it was fun for me and DH.

<cue the music>

_A long long time ago
I can still remember how
My VOIs used to make me smirk
Cause I knew if I had my search
That I could make those uptrades work
By eplus retrade and flexing for a while

But starry options drained my wallet
On every unit I’d deposit
Bulk drops on a diet
Oh sightings way too quiet

I do remember winter’s tales
Of Woody’s proposed two big sales,
Vacate shares and then they’ll bail
Who will we soon hail? It’s

Aye, aye my world leisure guy
Gotta buy it all those Hyatts, get a piece of the pie
Yet them good ole tuggers know how to buy
Sayin’ sales will usually lie
Re-sale is the way don’t be shy

Do you feel that HOT has cooled?
Or have we just been really fooled?
If the Chinese tell us so?
Do you believe your points still roll?
Will rewards mar your travel soul?
And can you teach me how to make ‘em grow?

Well, I know that you’re playin’ to win
Cuz’ wasting cash is a tugger’s sin
Games are getting retooled
Man, we hate not knowing the rules

Some will a covet manda-tory stock
From a pink shelly beach to a desert loch
But I know units up for hock
The day the network dies
I started sayin'

Aye, aye my world leisure guy
Gonna bill ya all those villas, get a piece of the pie
Yet them good ole tuggers know how to buy
Sayin’ sales will usually lie
Re-sale is the way we know why

Now for ten years villas been reboarded
And resort seats corporate hoarded 
But, that's not how it used to be

When stay where you own was what we knew
The seasons were colored:  red white n’ blue
And our time was fixed ‘tween you and me

Oh and while exchange was still gold crown
Vacation clubs were floating ‘round
Maint’nance fees just exploded
HOAs nearly imploded

And while Mary ought read books on stars
Most expect switching avatars
As we speculate from a-far
The ways our contracts pay
We’re just hoping

Aye, aye my world leisure guy
Give ‘em treats to the elites, get a piece of the pie
Yet them good ole tuggers know how to buy
Sayin’ sales will usually lie
Resale is the way do or die
. . ._


----------



## LisaRex (Nov 23, 2015)

It'd be helpful if you'd give a hint about which 70's song you have in your head.


----------



## SMHarman (Nov 23, 2015)

LisaRex said:


> It'd be helpful if you'd give a hint about which 70's song you have in your head.


Really? American VOI, sorry Pie


----------



## LisaRex (Nov 23, 2015)

SMHarman said:


> Really? American VOI, sorry Pie



I only read the first two stanzas before I gave up.  I guess I should have held out til the 4th.


----------



## dsmrp (Nov 23, 2015)

LisaRex said:


> I only read the first two stanzas before I gave up.  I guess I should have held out til the 4th.



Oops sorry, I thought the first 2 lines would help kick it in.  I guess not many remember Weird Al Yankovic's version for Star Wars Phantom Menace  ???


----------



## Henry M. (Nov 23, 2015)

First line did it for me ...


----------



## pharmgirl (Nov 23, 2015)

We own both Marriott (KoOlina) and Starwood (Maui) and use Marriott cc for Marriott maintenance and SPG AmEx to pay Starwood maintain fees

Any suggestions about changing? Using Marriott CC for both maintainance fees?


----------



## cubigbird (Nov 23, 2015)

pharmgirl said:


> We own both Marriott (KoOlina) and Starwood (Maui) and use Marriott cc for Marriott maintenance and SPG AmEx to pay Starwood maintain fees
> 
> Any suggestions about changing? Using Marriott CC for both maintainance fees?



SPG points are by far the most valuable currency out there.  SPG changes won't happen soon, probably not until 2017.  Get & use SPG points as long as you can until changes and deadlines are announced.  I'd stick with separate cards for now.


----------



## vistana101 (Nov 23, 2015)

What do you all think about the value of Starpoints versus Hyatt points? After some brief research, it seems a lot of their hotel categories are similar. They are also currently offering status match to their diamond level if you are SPG Plat!


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## LisaRex (Nov 24, 2015)

vistana101 said:


> What do you all think about the value of Starpoints versus Hyatt points? After some brief research, it seems a lot of their hotel categories are similar. They are also currently offering status match to their diamond level if you are SPG Plat!



Acc to FlyerTalkers, it's not unusual for hotels and airlines to offer one-time status matches, often just for the asking.  If you are a frequent traveler, they want your business.


----------



## cubigbird (Nov 24, 2015)

vistana101 said:


> What do you all think about the value of Starpoints versus Hyatt points? After some brief research, it seems a lot of their hotel categories are similar. They are also currently offering status match to their diamond level if you are SPG Plat!



Flyer Talk or TUG travel info is probably a better place for this but I'll go ahead and answer it.  SPG points are still much more valuable than Hyatt IMHO because of what you can do with them outside of award nights.  I agree though, some of Hyatt's categories are similar.   One of the biggest benefits are the 1:1 transfers to airlines, Nights & Flights and the 5k bonus points for transferring 20k to an airline.  i.e.: 20k SPG points = 25k AA miles.

Back on topic, and as discussed previously if these benefits go away with the merger, that would be a HUGE consumer loss.


----------



## dsmrp (Nov 24, 2015)

cubigbird said:


> . ... One of the biggest benefits are the 1:1 transfers to airlines, Nights & Flights and the 5k bonus points for transferring 20k to an airline.  i.e.: 20k SPG points = 25k AA miles.
> 
> Back on topic, and as discussed previously if these benefits go away with the merger, that would be a HUGE consumer loss.



I think some others have said that the points to American airlines transfer is no more.
I sure hope they keep the transfer option to Alaska for awhile


----------



## cubigbird (Nov 24, 2015)

dsmrp said:


> I think some others have said that the points to American airlines transfer is no more.
> I sure hope they keep the transfer option to Alaska for awhile



There was a bonus on top of the 5K that is no more.  You can still transfer to AA.


----------



## pacman777 (Nov 25, 2015)

My concern is what will happen if Marriott decides to phase out the Starwood brands (eg Westin, Sheraton, W, etc) all together. The brand name of the current Starwood timeshares will be significantly diminished. The reason I bought into Starwood timeshares was due to my loyalty to Starwood hotels which I associate with high quality. If that goes away, then the current SVN becomes the way of lesser quality timeshare companies that do not command a premium (eg Westgate, Welk, Bluegreen , etc). I would much rather pay a premium and be an owner of a timeshare associated with a reputable hotel brand (Starwood, Marriott or lastly Hilton).


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 25, 2015)

Why would they eliminate Westin, Sheraton, etc as a brand name? Too much brand recognition. There is no upside for them to do this. Probably just keep all their brands under one corporate umbrella - lots of Corps do this.
IMO


----------



## Scott & Laura (Nov 25, 2015)

I liked the American Pie response.

  Marriott I do not believe would ever phase out Starwood names.  First off those brands provide a large revenue stream.  

Secondly Starwood has a great reputation overseas   and particularily in China were Marriott has  a miniscule presence.  The industry growth potential in China and India is huge.  It would be bad business to change familiar brand names and rebrand Starwood when the name recognition has a couple of million loyal customers.

The SPG point sytem generates a lot of cash for the STarwood hotel chain. Why would they want to anger customers by getting rid of a revenue stream.  Their shareholders would be angered if they did. 


Scott


----------



## dioxide45 (Nov 25, 2015)

pacman777 said:


> My concern is what will happen if Marriott decides to phase out the Starwood brands (eg Westin, Sheraton, W, etc) all together. The brand name of the current Starwood timeshares will be significantly diminished. The reason I bought into Starwood timeshares was due to my loyalty to Starwood hotels which I associate with high quality. If that goes away, then the current SVN becomes the way of lesser quality timeshare companies that do not command a premium (eg Westgate, Welk, Bluegreen , etc). I would much rather pay a premium and be an owner of a timeshare associated with a reputable hotel brand (Starwood, Marriott or lastly Hilton).



I think it would be hard for them to do this. There may often be a Marriott and a Westin or Sheraton right across the street from each other in some major cities. It would be odd to have two Marriott's, wouldn't it? There may even be exclusivity agreements with some of the property owners that there can't be another hotel of the same brand within x number of miles.

I see no reason that Marriott will phase out the Westin and Starwood brands. Perhaps some of the other smaller brands could be incorporated some day, but doubtful also because of the reasons mentioned above.


----------



## dioxide45 (Nov 25, 2015)

moto x said:


> In you opinion, any chance the ILG deal would fall through and MVC would buy SVN?



Responding on this again. If for some reason the ILG deal falls through, are the chances good that Marriott Vacations Worldwide would swoop in to buy VSE in order to save the MAR/HOT deal?


----------



## LisaRex (Nov 26, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> Responding on this again. If for some reason the ILG deal falls through, are the chances good that Marriott Vacations Worldwide would swoop in to buy VSE in order to save the MAR/HOT deal?



Why do you think that the MAR/HOT deal needs to be saved?  Marriott bought HOT after the divestiture of VSE.


----------



## SueDonJ (Nov 26, 2015)

LisaRex said:


> Why do you think that the MAR/HOT deal needs to be saved?  Marriott bought HOT after the divestiture of VSE.



But none of the transactions are completed yet, not even the renaming/spinoff of VSE and that needs to happen before the MAR/HOT deal.  There are still a lot of moving parts that have to fall into place ...


----------



## dioxide45 (Nov 26, 2015)

LisaRex said:


> Why do you think that the MAR/HOT deal needs to be saved?  Marriott bought HOT after the divestiture of VSE.



HOT was obviously shopping VSE. So if for some reason the ILG/VSE deal doesn't happen, do they still just spin it off outright, or do they go after another buyer for it?

As Sue said, none of these deals are done. I was just theorizing possible scenarios.


----------



## tschwa2 (Nov 26, 2015)

I think they would look for another buyer and hopefully DRI doesn't end up making a play for it.


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## SMHarman (Nov 26, 2015)

pacman777 said:


> My concern is what will happen if Marriott decides to phase out the Starwood brands (eg Westin, Sheraton, W, etc) all together. The brand name of the current Starwood timeshares will be significantly diminished. The reason I bought into Starwood timeshares was due to my loyalty to Starwood hotels which I associate with high quality. If that goes away, then the current SVN becomes the way of lesser quality timeshare companies that do not command a premium (eg Westgate, Welk, Bluegreen , etc). I would much rather pay a premium and be an owner of a timeshare associated with a reputable hotel brand (Starwood, Marriott or lastly Hilton).


Truly, that and the customers loyal to those brands is what they are paying for. 
Marriott already has a portfolio of brands e.g. Ritz. This adds to them. 

Hotels have switched brands through their lives and will continue to do so. Some within the same umbrella. 


DavidnRobin said:


> Why would they eliminate Westin, Sheraton, etc as a brand name? Too much brand recognition. There is no upside for them to do this. Probably just keep all their brands under one corporate umbrella - lots of Corps do this.
> IMO


Exactly.


----------



## SMHarman (Nov 26, 2015)

dioxide45 said:


> Responding on this again. If for some reason the ILG deal falls through, are the chances good that Marriott Vacations Worldwide would swoop in to buy VSE in order to save the MAR/HOT deal?


If the ILG deal falls through then there is a listed VVE from a share split. No need to cancel the hotel merger. 

Too much conflation on this thread.


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## VacationForever (Nov 26, 2015)

dsmrp said:


> <cue the music>
> 
> _A long long time ago
> I can still remember how
> ...



Sandra, this is excellent.  Thank you for sharing.


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## Scott & Laura (Nov 27, 2015)

I think the point on conflation is right on the mark.

Marriot is a Hotel management company and they brand their Hotels Marriot---they manage and do not want to own real estate. There is a distinct disadvantage to ownership, as it ties up working capital and shareholders do not want top see 20-30% of every dollar they invested idly tiued up in a fixed asset.


Starwood is a Hotel management company woith different Brand name recognition. Starwood manages their Hotels under the Westin, Sheraton, W, etc name brands. Each brand represents different imagery to guests. If you walk into a W you can immediately recognize its not a Westin or St.Regis

To rebrand all as Marriot would require all the Hotel owners who signed for a brand name recognition to waive those agreements and sign off on the name Marriot---which means less expensive less frills Hotel than Westin or St.Regis etc.


I would think dumping the brand name of Starwood they just paid a Billion + for and change them all to Marriot would be akin to the Titanic Captain putting a hole on the opposite side of the Titanic to let the water out that was coming in from hole caused by Iceberg 


Marriot and Starwood provide management--they make their money from management and if they buy assets they would see their stop drop.  Also if they dump Starwood brand recognition they would anger real estate owners who hired them for their name recognition


Marriot would face a HUGE rebranding and advertising camapign to convince guests that Marriots fewer frills Hotels are equivalent for guests who stay at ST.Regis that is now branded as a Marriot---I see no way that is possible.

WHy pay billion+ to just anger and confuse your customer base?  They are generating billions in revenue each year and they don't do that by making stupid decisions.

The Starwood Vacation Network was spun off specifically so they did not have Real Estate tied up in company---by selling off the real estate they bought back stock increasing stock prices and helped the company economic stability. A Management company weathers down turns in economic cycles much better than a company that has funds tied up in bricks and mortar


Scott


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## Ken555 (Nov 27, 2015)

I can't believe any of you seriously think Marriott would kill the Starwood brand names. 

What could easily happen is the end of the StarPoints program, etc.


Sent from my iPad


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## Scott & Laura (Nov 27, 2015)

Folks should keep in mind that the Starpoint system provides a huge revenue stream to Hotels. Why would they want to kill that off.

If they accept Starpoints ( keep in mind Starwood Hotels has a signed agreement to accept them) the Vistana Vacations formerly SVN  compensates them with CASH 


Also by accepting STarpoints from SVN Vistana they get revenues from rooms traded in for them


It would be ludicrous to believe they just paid Billion + for a Hotel brand utilizing STarpoints and dump the very revenue stream that provided that revenue to Starwoods bottom line --and one of the very revenue streams they just  compensated Shareholders of Starwood for in order to acquire

At times that makes sense but only in cases where you can dominate market  by getting rid of Competitor.  Such as Coke buying Pepsi    However Federal Government takes dim view on monopolization


In this case Marriot runs their trap line in small rivers  and Starwood runs theirs in a big lake---where collectively they add and compliment each other and create oppurtunities for people to stay under one roof.  In past if I went to small town I had to use Marriot or Wyndham   Now In future I may be able to use Starpoints and stay in small towns


Starwood only was in large cities and fished for business travelers. 


Scott


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## SueDonJ (Nov 27, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> I can't believe any of you seriously think Marriott would kill the Starwood brand names.
> 
> What could easily happen is the end of the StarPoints program, etc.
> 
> ...



I agree, there's no reason to expect the SW hotel brands to disappear when the MAR/HOT acquisition happens.  Marriot, Int'l. already manages a number of brands under the umbrella, SW's brands can easily survive.

The loyalty program points are a different story.  They've said that the SPG program will be integrated into the Marriott Rewards program and that the end result will be a combination of the two.  It'll be interesting to see it from both vantage points.


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## Scott & Laura (Nov 27, 2015)

I agree with integration but not under one Brand name


I think more like Delta-Alsaka--KLM  airlines were each has their own but their are interchangeable and transferable across the board


Scott


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## taffy19 (Nov 27, 2015)

I read this a few days ago and may be of interest:

http://www.hotelmanagement.net/marr...podcMTctlN73YDBceEJhqyQJxPr3HJdQN18R7RhHnDg==


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## Scott & Laura (Nov 27, 2015)

That article is very good


It confirms my views and suspicions very succinctly

Scott


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## Scott & Laura (Nov 27, 2015)

Sheraton's issues are a lot of them in United States are subpar


Overseas it has a very high name and the Hotels are respected in Europe and China


Scott


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## Ken555 (Nov 27, 2015)

iconnections said:


> I read this a few days ago and may be of interest:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.hotelmanagement.net/marr...podcMTctlN73YDBceEJhqyQJxPr3HJdQN18R7RhHnDg==




Eh, that's a lot of nothing IMO.


Sent from my iPad


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## Scott & Laura (Nov 27, 2015)

Public statements by corporate officers are never a "lot of nothing." they should be paid attention to.



They have reasons and in this case they are assuaging concerns of both stock shareholders, owners of hotels they manage, employees of the Hotels, SPG point users and customers -- by communicating they have recognized concerns of all five
.
 It means that the corporate directors have recognized and are acutely sensitive to all the respective issues and concerns. They cannot announce actualities as they have not completed the transaction but, they make clear Gloabal brand recognition is a driving force that this transaction targeted.

In the case of Best Buy purchasing Musicland/Sam Goody group the corporate officers failed to recognize and address either the employees or customers of Musicland and it was a disaster ending in a complete loss to Best Buy.


Scott


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## x3 skier (Nov 27, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> Eh, that's a lot of nothing IMO.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad



Agree

As the saying goes, "Nothing to see here folks, move along."

As guy quoted says, he was the money and M&A guy, not anything to do with operations, combinations, reorganization, etc. So, he's happy it was a good financial deal and what happens next was a lot of "humma, humma" as we used to say in the trenches when we heard the top brass give out with a lot of bland no content verbiage. 

I'd wait and see what actual activities take place. 

Cheers


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## Scott & Laura (Nov 27, 2015)

I have read Starwood's corporate margin calls for years and what "the money guy" said was a lot if you know how to read financials. The margin calls addressed Starwoods areas of weakness and how they needed to divest itself of Timeshare unit to raise cash.

The Money guy is generalizing (about Mr.Marriots active involvement along with the others such as operations, etc. having weighed in and given their views) and talked about the positive benefits while recognizing sensitive areas they DO NOT want to see fears arise in --such as SPG. 

 The money guy layed out the future of the industry in general and how they hope to address the new competition and fact the industry has gone from competing locally with guy across street for business and now with internet and travel they have to compete globally everywhere to retain customer loyalty.
It is a succinct recognition of sensitive areas needing to be addressed  with the acquisition, and the reasons Marriot purchased Starwood and how it will help secure the company's position for the future.


He simplified what is a 500 page novel and summarized it for those who don't want to read 500 pages and presented it in a capsule summary. Who, What, where they are at, why they are there and what issues need to be sensitively handled to retain HAPPY customer loyalty now and in the future  To Grow the company


What else is there he can say at this time?

He stated once the company consummates the purchase the other parties will then have the freedom to begin acting and integrating things.

I respectfully disagree with the view that what he said was Nothing important

I retired at age 50 from business and bought Starwood on a whim because it forced us to travel and vacation where I never did before

I view this development as positive and it was described as more of a merger  37-38 percent ownership has a huge voice at the table in a large corporation.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 27, 2015)

This video has already been posted in the Marriott thread:

WATCH: Marriott CEO Discusses Future of Marriott Rewards, SPG Loyalty Programs <--- travelpulse.com link



> ... Sorenson concluded by stating that the company plans to "create a hospitality loyalty program that values the best of both programs and then some." ...



The CEO of Marriott, Int'l. doesn't usually respond to internet musings in this manner so just as we should seriously consider Public Statements, we should seriously consider this release as well.  It's fairly obvious that when all is said and done their intent is to completely integrate the two loyalty programs into one, and it only makes sense that it will come under the MI umbrella as Marriott Rewards.

I'm not sure why, after all that has been said, anyone would expect the two loyalty programs to remain as separate entities?


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## Scott & Laura (Nov 27, 2015)

That is an excellent video.  It states clearly the goal is to have a unified point program.  It also recognizes branding.  After watching and reading my guess is it will be a unified program under a new Name. In that way they can brand it to alleviate every ones concerns. I do not believe Marriot would even attempt to brand it under the name Marriot. Re-branding a merged point system with a new name makes the most sense.

The video acknowledges the legal issues and need for time -- years to appropriately resolve. 

Starwoods point system had more to offer then Marriots. Since it was an extension of proprietary knowledge as to how they did it profitably--the merger will give Marriot access and able to come up with a program to enhance and assuage concerns. The Video acknowledges Starwoods program and that it was important to Marriot whose own program lags behind Starwoods.

I think a new program with even greater benefits to increase brand loyalty will emerge. Coupled with the size of the new company they will have a lot of muscle to get increased benefits. 





Above all in any business deal is the track record and integrity of the men behind it. Bill Marriot is a family man and family values are utmost important to him.   He is not Bernie Madoff. I think Mr.Marriot will serve everyone well.


Scott


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## Ken555 (Nov 27, 2015)

And on a related note, I applied for a new credit card with a different hotel affiliation since I have no interest in accumulating even more StarPoints until we know exactly what's going to happen to the program.


Sent from my iPad


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## SueDonJ (Nov 27, 2015)

Scott & Laura said:


> ... I do not believe Marriot would even attempt to brand it under the name Marriot. Re-branding a merged point system with a new name makes the most sense. ...



We'll have to agree to disagree here.  Marriott is the acquiring company and already has an established successful loyalty program with brand name recognition.  Of course anything can happen but I'll be very surprised if the end result name isn't Marriott Rewards.



Scott & Laura said:


> ... Above all in any business deal is the track record and integrity of the men behind it. Bill Marriot is a family man and family values are utmost important to him.   He is not Bernie Madoff. I think Mr.Marriot will serve everyone well.
> 
> 
> Scott



Nothing wrong with optimism - we should all hope for nothing but the best!  But knowing the Marriott Rewards program, I know that optimism doesn't always pan out.  _Relative specifically to the timeshares_ for every single change over the years to the Marriott Rewards program, what they called "enhancements" were and are seen as devaluations by those of us who take full advantage of the loyalty program and timeshare affiliation.  And they didn't lose any measurable integrity in the industry for those changes.


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## Scott & Laura (Nov 27, 2015)

I understand your feeling

Two reasons why if they make one system it would be rebranded.

1) example  If McDonalds bought Kentucky Fried Chicken they would not re-brand them McDonalds just because they are owned by McDonalds due to f the strong Brand imagery   and that would be case with Marriot who has strong brand imagery  that does not lend itself to St.Regis, Westin, Aloft which represent distinctly differing brand imageries

Starwoods point system is well known to be stronger than Marriots   a  partnership or re-brand would be needed to expand and convey imagery beyond the imagery associated with Marriots name alone. If they merely substituted Marriots name for Starwood--that would set off brand confusion and unduly alarm people.


2)  Ritz-Carlton kept there rewards brand  and they formed a partnership
     Marriot is known not to meddle with brands they acquire  Starwoods point system is better than Marriots and Marriots purchase allows them access to inner proprietary information to improve Marriots


Scott


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## okwiater (Nov 27, 2015)

I tend to agree that it is unlikely SPG will simply merge into Marriott Rewards.

Here is an exact quote from Marriott's CEO, Arne Sorenson: "While we will be spending a great deal of time in the coming months developing our strategy for SPG and Marriott Rewards, our members should take comfort in the fact that we know without a doubt these loyalty programs are the most powerful tool we have for developing strong relationships with our best customers. The SPG program was one of the most attractive aspects of our acquisition of Starwood. *To state the obvious, devaluing points or member benefits is not the way to preserve and strengthen these programs, which is our aim.*"


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## Ken555 (Nov 27, 2015)

okwiater said:


> I tend to agree that it is unlikely SPG will simply merge into Marriott Rewards.
> 
> Here is an exact quote from Marriott's CEO, Arne Sorenson: "While we will be spending a great deal of time in the coming months developing our strategy for SPG and Marriott Rewards, our members should take comfort in the fact that we know without a doubt these loyalty programs are the most powerful tool we have for developing strong relationships with our best customers. The SPG program was one of the most attractive aspects of our acquisition of Starwood. *To state the obvious, devaluing points or member benefits is not the way to preserve and strengthen these programs, which is our aim.*"




While there is a reason to be hopeful, based on recent history in the travel industry, I would suggest that devaluing the program in some fashion will occur. After so many other programs have devalued their benefits (while marketing typically spins it as a positive change) I'm really quite surprised that some of you really think this time it will be different. 

I've decided it's just time to diversify my hotel points for the first time in well over 15 years, in any meaningful way. I rely upon the value I've expected to receive from Starwood and without any guarantee that will remain, which we do not have at this time regardless of all the statements so far released, I think it's just silly to expect anything other than a devalue of the program.

I'll be pleasantly surprised if they don't devalue the program within the next two years (figuring they close the deal next year, that gives them one year or so to make changes). 

My guess is that the hotel category change which typically occurs in March/April (IIRC) will show many more hotels moving up than in previous years, as a way to devalue the program in a manner consistent with what we expect as normal...but perhaps including more hotels than normal.


Sent from my iPad


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## SMHarman (Nov 28, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> My guess is that the hotel category change which typically occurs in March/April (IIRC) will show many more hotels moving up than in previous years, as a way to devalue the program in a manner consistent with what we expect as normal...but perhaps including more hotels than normal.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad



Starwood has always been pretty scientific with category changes and based it on average Revenue per room. 

I don't expect that to change.  it's driven by the check expected by the hotel to replace a Revenue room.


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## Ken555 (Nov 28, 2015)

SMHarman said:


> Starwood has always been pretty scientific with category changes and based it on average Revenue per room.
> 
> I don't expect that to change.




That's exactly what I meant. They were, but I don't expect that to remain consistent. It's just such an easy method to devalue the program without many complaining, etc.

I think it's just silly to think they won't try to find more value revenue for the company from the loyalty program. As long as they're still competitive with the market, they'll do fine. Airline programs haven't really suffered after almost all devalued them, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the same with hotel programs.


Sent from my iPad


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## SMHarman (Nov 28, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> That's exactly what I meant. They were, but I don't expect that to remain consistent. It's just such an easy method to devalue the program without many complaining, etc.
> 
> I think it's just silly to think they won't try to find more value revenue for the company from the loyalty program. As long as they're still competitive with the market, they'll do fine. Airline programs haven't really suffered after almost all devalued them, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the same with hotel programs.
> 
> ...


But for an airline it is right-hand left-hand for much of the spend. Yes some is between the carriers in an alliance. 

For the hotels it is franchisor franchisee. Real money.


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## Ken555 (Nov 28, 2015)

SMHarman said:


> But for an airline it is right-hand left-hand for much of the spend.
> 
> For the hotels it is franchisor franchisee. Real money.




There are many variables involved. But it would be easy to devalue the program while not impacting the money corporate pays the franchisee for a night. And even for airlines, the frequent miles unspent are a liability for them and every time they devalue they "earn" $$$.

It's simple to say I'm wrong. It's more difficult to suggest that it's unrealistic to believe that Marriott will do whatever they can to earn more money, and there's always been a fine line for the loyalty programs in earning the loyalty of frequent travelers and not doing so. 


Sent from my iPad


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## SMHarman (Nov 28, 2015)

I'm not saying you are wrong. You are likely right. 

Some of this really may be down to how the franchise agreement is written for SPG. 

Interesting times are ahead and like you my hotel spend is up for grabs. Though cash back looks more appealing. Our Chase freedom.


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## okwiater (Nov 28, 2015)

The fact that so many of you are talking about taking so much of your business elsewhere if SPG is significantly devalued is precisely the reason why I believe Marriott will be judicious in how they redesign the points program. Marriott didn't give up 38% of the company to simply go and piss off all the Starwood customers. I'm sure there will be changes and Marriott will be looking out for its bottom line, but the assumption that "devaluing points = more revenue" is overly simplistic and likely inaccurate. As others have pointed out, this isn't an airline and Marriott will have dozens of competitors across its markets... not to mention thousands of franchisees whose livelihoods will be affected if Marriott chases away Starwood's most loyal former customers.


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## x3 skier (Nov 28, 2015)

One of their biggest competitors is the Hilton family that made a huge devaluation of their program. Since Starwood and Marriott will no longer have to compete against each other, I see this as a good indication a devaluation of Star Points is likely if not certain since they can devalue less than Hilton and still have a better program to retain customers.

Cheers


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## SueDonJ (Nov 28, 2015)

okwiater said:


> The fact that so many of you are talking about taking so much of your business elsewhere if SPG is significantly devalued is precisely the reason why I believe Marriott will be judicious in how they redesign the points program. Marriott didn't give up 38% of the company to simply go and piss off all the Starwood customers. I'm sure there will be changes and Marriott will be looking out for its bottom line, but the assumption that "devaluing points = more revenue" is overly simplistic and likely inaccurate. As others have pointed out, this isn't an airline and Marriott will have dozens of competitors across its markets... not to mention thousands of franchisees whose livelihoods will be affected if Marriott chases away Starwood's most loyal former customers.



Understandably you're looking at it from the Starwood side of the house.  But what happens when you look at it from the Marriott side?

There are 21m SPG members of which the majority, from all I'm reading/hearing, think that their program is more valuable than the Marriott Rewards program.  (It may well be but reality doesn't matter because it's the perception that fueled the internet outcry, that forced MI's CEO to issue that unprecedented youtube statement.)  What you and they seem to be saying is that if the end result loyalty program devalues their benefits, they'll jump ship for a competitor.  

There are 54m Marriott Rewards members who, if the SPG benefits are actually better than those of MR and Marriott doesn't devalue them, will understandably want their benefits to be increased to match the SPG benefits when/if the two programs are consolidated.  Although they're not as vocal at this point about jumping ship if they're not treated equally by the end result, you can bet they'll use the threat then as effectively as SPG members are using it now.

So what will hurt Marriott more?  Devaluing somewhat the SPG program and risking a percentage of the 21m jumping ship, or taking the risk that an equal percentage of the 54m MR members will jump ship if the end result under the Marriott umbrella is two programs of which the acquired one has a perceived higher value?  The one thing I wouldn't expect them to do is retain all of the highest-value benefits in both systems without devaluing others; that's just not going to happen.

One constant is that people hate change; another is that people threaten all sorts of things but don't follow through.  Marriott is under no illusion that just the fact that this acquisition is happening will cause some SPG and MR to jump ship regardless of the end result loyalty program.  Their aim is going to be to pacify as many SPG and MR members as they can - and there the MR members have the numbers to come out on top.  And like I said, don't be fooled by their words - what they present as "enhancements" in one aspect of the program usually result in a concession/devaluation elsewhere.

{eta} What's telling is that back in October Marriott announced changes to the MR program to bring certain aspects in line with SPG (cash&points, counting award redemption nights, etc.)  Obviously in hindsight they were forward-looking to try to fend off some of the criticism being voiced now, but it also proves that they've already put a value on aspects of SPG's program that they're willing to retain.  (Upcoming MR changes: Cash & Points for real, award stays towards status, and more <--- flyertalk.com thread)


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## VacationForever (Nov 28, 2015)

I own boatloads of MRP and SPG points.  The ratio is different in value but I don't value one system over the other.  I have both credit cards and enjoy staying at both brands.  I am just very surprised by many posts here implying that Starwood is somewhat superior to Marriott.  Quality is independent at each hotel and timeshare. I love JW Marriott (hotels) for many years before I came to accept Westin as being as good and my husband was the other way around. He now strongly prefers Marriott as a brand, hotel and timeshare. My experience at Marriott (timeshare) in Maui and Kaui was far better than Westin, so much so that I vouch never to return to the 2 Westin resorts there.


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## Ken555 (Nov 28, 2015)

x3 skier said:


> One of their biggest competitors is the Hilton family that made a huge devaluation of their program. Since Starwood and Marriott will no longer have to compete against each other, I see this as a good indication a devaluation of Star Points is likely if not certain since they can devalue less than Hilton and still have a better program to retain customers.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers




^^ THIS


Sent from my iPad


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## Ken555 (Nov 28, 2015)

*Marriott to acquire Starwood hotels*



sptung said:


> My experience at Marriott (timeshare) in Maui and Kaui was far better than Westin, so much so that I vouch never to return to the 2 Westin resorts there.




The Maui Westin's are my favorite resorts in the program. In fact, the only better timeshare I've visited is Four Seasons. I haven't yet been to the Marriotts on Maui, but have been to many others and they are all inferior to the Westin product...I have heard that the Maui Marriots are nice, tho.


Sent from my iPad


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## Ken555 (Nov 28, 2015)

okwiater said:


> The fact that so many of you are talking about taking so much of your business elsewhere if SPG is significantly devalued is precisely the reason why I believe Marriott will be judicious in how they redesign the points program. Marriott didn't give up 38% of the company to simply go and piss off all the Starwood customers. I'm sure there will be changes and Marriott will be looking out for its bottom line, but the assumption that "devaluing points = more revenue" is overly simplistic and likely inaccurate. As others have pointed out, this isn't an airline and Marriott will have dozens of competitors across its markets... not to mention thousands of franchisees whose livelihoods will be affected if Marriott chases away Starwood's most loyal former customers.




Summarizing scenarios as simplistic is what I do! 

However, I don't think there are dozens of similar competitors in scope and presence as Marriott and Starwood.


Sent from my iPad


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## dsmrp (Nov 28, 2015)

sptung said:


> Sandra, this is excellent.  Thank you for sharing.



You're welcome, glad a few people at least liked it 
I might finish out the rest of the verses late next year or 2017, depending upon what solidifies out after the sales are final.

IMO, I feel there will be some decrease in value for SPG pts whether converted to Marriott points or kept in name as 'spg'.
If major changes are made, I think Marriott would implement in phases if they can, rather than go big-bang, so as not to rile spg members.

It would be much more telling to know how many spg points are outstanding, that is, not yet redeemed, and what percentage of the hotels' occupancy redeemed points represent.  But can't know, these are part of the proprietory knowledge Marriott will get or maybe has gotten in their pre-agreement analysis.


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## pedro47 (Nov 28, 2015)

Starwood owners should be happy, Marriott is a first class organization.


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## BigBC (Nov 30, 2015)

I think this is the correct view. Interval won't keep access to SPG for Starwood Vacations Club over the long haul from my perspective. MVC won't allow Marriott to service the needs of a competitive product. My guess is that Interval will have to replace SPG benefits for Starwood Vacations Club with something else down the road. Certainly will devalue my Starwood ownership as I use SPG alot.


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## Ken555 (Nov 30, 2015)

pedro47 said:


> Starwood owners should be happy, Marriott is a first class organization.




Unfortunately, not all their hotels are first class.


Sent from my iPad


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## okwiater (Nov 30, 2015)

BigBC said:


> I think this is the correct view. Interval won't keep access to SPG for Starwood Vacations Club over the long haul from my perspective. MVC won't allow Marriott to service the needs of a competitive product. My guess is that Interval will have to replace SPG benefits for Starwood Vacations Club with something else down the road. Certainly will devalue my Starwood ownership as I use SPG alot.



This is nonsense. MVC is a separate company from Marriott and will have no say in the SVO-ILG/Marriott relationship.


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## VacationForever (Nov 30, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> Unfortunately, not all their hotels are first class.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad


Marriott has multiple levels of hotels, just like Starwood.  Four points is very substandard.  You need to compare Westin with JW Marriott.


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## Ken555 (Nov 30, 2015)

sptung said:


> Marriott has multiple levels of hotels, just like Starwood.  Four points is very substandard.  You need to compare Westin with JW Marriott.



I've been to many very nice Four Points (especially in Europe, though I was at a new one just a few weeks ago in the States). I've also been to a few that have been rebranded and have a lot to be desired. 

I've also been to many, many Marriott hotels (of various brands). There's a reason I prefer Starwood. JW is quite nice, Marriotts are generally okay, etc. I think it's interesting that you think JW is equivalent to Westin, since I always thought JW was better (I haven't stayed at a JW in years, though I've been to many...latest in Scottsdale when I stayed at Canyon Villas). 

I'm not a hotel snob. I don't need the best. I've been very critical of some Starwood hotels over the years, but I've had much better results - in general - from Starwood than Marriott. 

And then there's the comparison of the loyalty programs...and Marriott doesn't come close to the benefits, for me, as SPG did. Oh, well. Nothing lasts forever.


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## SMHarman (Nov 30, 2015)

okwiater said:


> This is nonsense. MVC is a separate company from Marriott and will have no say in the SVO-ILG/Marriott relationship.


I concur as I said earlier the SVO/ILG contract surely has a points program affinity for the duration of the branding affinity. Further it surely has a successor clause. 

Unless Marriott just shut down SPG the Marriott Rewards is the successor. 

I don't see car Hire companies etc looking for points cobrand exclusivity.


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## YYJMSP (Nov 30, 2015)

okwiater said:


> This is nonsense. MVC is a separate company from Marriott and will have no say in the SVO-ILG/Marriott relationship.





It comes down to what is in the "long term" agreements between SVO/VSE and HOT for access to SPG and how they survive HOT's sale to MAR.



I would think there are clauses to handle buyout situations like this.



Too bad we can't see the actual agreements.



Worst case they only guarantee access to the brand names Westin and Sheraton.  Best case they cover ongoing access to trading VOIs for hotel points and some kind of status.


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## vistana101 (Dec 1, 2015)

I certainly hope we will be able to maintain elite status and have point conversions. Even though they are not the best value, I often find myself unable to use a villa week and the point conversions have been very helpful. Hopefully we will have clear updates and information by the end of 2016.


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## MichaelColey (Dec 1, 2015)

Personally, I think some consolidation of brands is inevitable.  Marriott currently has 19 different brands.  Starwood has about a dozen.  Do they really need/want THIRTY different brands of hotels?  It would make a lot of sense to combine the similar ones and choose the strongest name (and maybe add "by Marriott") to go forward.


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## Scott & Laura (Dec 1, 2015)

I agree that a consolidation would be in order.

It will take years to complete as Marriott and Starwood have shifted away from property ownership in order to become the property managers for others.

Marriott and Starwood offer a branded image and, in cases were Marriott and Starwood offer a similar Hotel experiences the merger under a single name would make sense.

However since the hotels are owned by others which they  manage, those legal agreements become subject to the owners to determine if they wish to stay or switch to another company outside Starwood or Marriott to manage.

In any event changes would have to be accepted by the owners before anything could be done and I assume they will be addressed as management agreements come due and are either extended or cancelled over next few years


Scott


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## okwiater (Dec 1, 2015)

So which brands would you consolidate? Luxury Collection & Autograph are I think the most obvious but I am sure there are others. Which ones overlap to the point where merging them into one or the other is likely to be a minimal expense for the hotel owner and likely not to alienate any significant number of either brand's target customers?


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## jnsywg (Dec 2, 2015)

My guess is that within five years the "Delta" brand is gone from Canada. Most of the "Delta" hotels will convert to Sheraton or Marriott with some dropping to Courtyard or other. To keep the hotel owners happy this will be timed to coincidence with regular renovation cycles.


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## Scott & Laura (Dec 2, 2015)

Anything I would suggest at this time would be merely speculation on my behalf.
It's above my pay grade.

When Marriott's purchase agreement is finalized, I am sure they will review all the Hotel's Guests expectations and then decide what are the goals each brand is trying to achieve and what services or experiences are they trying to provide to guests. .They will also have to meet with the Hotel owners and determine if everything meets their needs and expectations. They certainly don't want to lose Hotel owners unless the owners are unwilling to maintain properties. 

They would then have to shape and focus each brand and where brands are able to offer the same experience I think they would create a singular brand in order to reduce management and costs.

This will take years as they have existing contracts with the Hotel owners already in place.

Scott


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## SueDonJ (Sep 20, 2016)

from news.marriott.com:

_"*Marriott’s Acquisition of Starwood Receives Antitrust Approval in China; Marriott and Starwood Expect to Become Combined Company on September 23*

Marriott International, Inc. (NASDAQ: MAR) and Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide, Inc. (NYSE: HOT) today announced their merger transaction has received approval from the Chinese Ministry of Commerce (MOFCOM). As this was the last regulatory approval required to complete the merger, Marriott and Starwood are now able to proceed with closing the transaction and expect the transaction to be completed before the market opens on September 23, pending satisfaction of customary closing requirements.  Upon closing, Marriott will solidify its status as the world’s largest hotel company.

In conjunction with the merger closing, Starwood expects its shares will cease trading on the New York Stock Exchange before market open on September 23, 2016.   As previously announced, Starwood shareholders will receive $21.00 in cash and 0.80 shares of Marriott International, Inc. Class A common stock for each share of Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide, Inc. common stock. ..."_


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