# 2 million seats @ 79 pence



## Carolinian (Feb 10, 2006)

Check out the deal on Ryan Air.  They are selling two milliion seats at 79 pence each, which is about US$2, plus tax, of course.

www.ryanair.com


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 10, 2006)

Carolinian said:
			
		

> Check out the deal on Ryan Air.  They are selling two milliion seats at 79 pence each, which is about US$2, plus tax, of course.
> 
> www.ryanair.com



I guess this will put all airlines out of business due to their dumping of seats, right?


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## jerseygirl (Feb 10, 2006)

We caught one of these sales last year -- what a great deal!  Three people from London to Rome for US$103, all taxes and fees included ... in July, no less!


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## Keitht (Feb 11, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> I guess this will put all airlines out of business due to their dumping of seats, right?



This is a regular occurrence with Ryan Air.  It hasn't put the other airlines out of business yet.  They are a LCC anyway and £10 flights are commonplace with them.  Is that a problem for you??


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 11, 2006)

Keitht said:
			
		

> This is a regular occurrence with Ryan Air.  It hasn't put the other airlines out of business yet.  They are a LCC anyway and £10 flights are commonplace with them.  Is that a problem for you??



Oh, I get it.  So, dumping of inventory onto a free market doesn't necessarily kill the industry, right?


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## DebBrown (Feb 11, 2006)

But if they dump the seats, where will we sit??


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## getreal (Feb 11, 2006)

*Timeshare vs Airlines*



			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> Oh, I get it.  So, dumping of inventory onto a free market doesn't necessarily kill the industry, right?



Boca ... don't hold back, please tell us how you really feel about this.    

Perhaps you want to start a seperate thread to discuss RCI rentals in detail, because there seems to be a lot of interest about weeks being dumped onto the rental market and what it will do to timeshare.

My personal issue with RCI is that they are very secretive.   It does not have to be that way.   I think they can make a good living and be transparent.  Somehow they prefer not to.  The combination of rentals and secrecy makes me uncomfortable.

I think it is valid for you to make comparisons to other travel industries like airlines.   An obvious parallel is that an timeshare week is like an airplane seat.  If has a very hard expiration date, and if you cannot find a buyer  before this date, its value drops to zero.

But the difference is that the airline industry is an open market whereas TS has a monopolistic RCI that manipulates it, and your comparisons should take this in mind.


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 11, 2006)

getreal said:
			
		

> Boca ... don't hold back, please tell us how you really feel about this.
> 
> Perhaps you want to start a seperate thread to discuss RCI rentals in detail, because there seems to be a lot of interest about weeks being dumped onto the rental market and what it will do to timeshare.
> 
> ...



LOL.  I don't need to start a thread on RCI rentals.  Every thread on TUG is focused on it.  ROFL.

Transparancy occurs when markets are free and open.  By definition a monopoly or oligopoly is secretive.  No need to be more open with information.  Profits are maximized simply by maintaining the status quo and slowing any progress.  Trasparancy occurs when more nimble competitors without a base of customers or profits to protect attack and successfuly penetrate those monopolies.

The interesting aspect of timesharing is that the monopolies are changing due to the competitive environment (e.g. mini-point systems and rental environment) while many timesharers who loved the way timesharing used to be want to preserve it.  So, niche competitors such as the alternate exchange companies have popped up in an attempt to meet that demand.  Unfortunately, those 3rd parties are just as secretive and they walk a fine line since they want to be like it was.  But, like it was is NOT how the market is moving.  So, they will either go out of business over time, change their model to move with the market or become a niche business like those vendors who still sel stylus' for turntables.

The best way for timesharing to become more transparent is for rentals to become broad and pervasive in every day life.  Only then, will families in general focus on staying in resort condos for vacation rather than hotels.  Then, the transparent, open market you seek will manifest itself.  So, a condo will be as easy to get as booking it on hotels.com.  Oh, I forgot, you can already do that today.


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## getreal (Feb 11, 2006)

*RCI is laughing at us*



			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> LOL.  ...  ROFL.


You know, the only ones that are laughing is RCI.  All the way to the bank.

I think you suggest that the current market movement is toward openness & transparency.  I like your insight and while I hope you are right, I am not sure.    

If you look at Ebay that is totally open and and how much business they do, it is a joke that RCI is still around.   At this stage RCI is growing and gobbling up other exchange groups like Worldmark, VRI, etc.  I think they still have the wind at their back.  

Your comment "many timesharers who loved the way timesharing used to be want to preserve it" is very true.   Many TUGgers kid themselves to think they are part of a select group that know how to game the system to their own advantage.      This attitude reminds me of the so called Soviet experts in the 1970's who claimed they could predict what the Soviet Union was up to next.   Again you can hear RCI laughing.


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## Carolinian (Feb 11, 2006)

I have seen a lot of threads hijacked to be pro-points and/or pro-rental threads, but this is unusual - a thread on an AIRLINE sale getting hijacked in that manner.  Amazing!


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## JeffV (Feb 11, 2006)

Just to set the record straight, RCI has not yet "gobbled up" VRI. VRI is an independent management company not an exchange company. Many of the resorts they manage are affiliated with both RCI and II.


			
				getreal said:
			
		

> .   At this stage RCI is growing and gobbling up other exchange groups like Worldmark, VRI, etc.  I think they still have the wind at their back.


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## timeos2 (Feb 11, 2006)

*Maybe the others but*



			
				getreal said:
			
		

> At this stage RCI is growing and gobbling up other exchange groups like Worldmark, VRI, etc.  I think they still have the wind at their back.


There is no fact behind the statement that RCI is gobbling up VRI. Don't want anyone to get nervous about that.


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## Carolinian (Feb 11, 2006)

timeos2 said:
			
		

> There is no fact behind the statement that RCI is gobbling up VRI. Don't want anyone to get nervous about that.



The other chains they gobbled up, through their parent, Cendant, were Fairfield and Peppertree/Equivest.

VRI is a management company, rather than a timeshare chain.


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## getreal (Feb 11, 2006)

timeos2 said:
			
		

> There is no fact behind the statement that RCI is gobbling up VRI. Don't want anyone to get nervous about that.



Does VRI still have their own exchange system, or was that taken over by RCI?

Just checking.


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## JeffV (Feb 11, 2006)

I don't recall VRI ever having their own exchange system. They do rent time to members at discounted prices. 


			
				getreal said:
			
		

> Does VRI still have their own exchange system, or was that taken over by RCI?
> 
> Just checking.


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## getreal (Feb 11, 2006)

JeffV said:
			
		

> I don't recall VRI ever having their own exchange system. They do rent time to members at discounted prices.



I think they did ... look at http://www.timeshareforums.com/showthread.php?t=151 (post #3)

Implicit in your reply is that they no longer have it.  Another score for RCI !


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 11, 2006)

getreal said:
			
		

> You know, the only ones that are laughing is RCI.  All the way to the bank.
> 
> I think you suggest that the current market movement is toward openness & transparency.  I like your insight and while I hope you are right, I am not sure.
> 
> ...



Cendant is breaking up into 4 distinct companies this year.  RCI will be in a different company than Trendwest and Fairfield.  Trendwest and Fairfield will likely be merged into the same brand.  My guess is that they call it Wyndham.


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 11, 2006)

Carolinian said:
			
		

> I have seen a lot of threads hijacked to be pro-points and/or pro-rental threads, but this is unusual - a thread on an AIRLINE sale getting hijacked in that manner.  Amazing!



Carolinian,

It's just that you are such a draw on TUG that everyone follows you around.  You are a TUG superstar.


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## getreal (Feb 11, 2006)

*Will this be different*



			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> Cendant is breaking up into 4 distinct companies this year.  RCI will be in a different company than Trendwest and Fairfield.  Trendwest and Fairfield will likely be merged into the same brand.  My guess is that they call it Wyndham.



Is this in any way going to change RCI's monopoly on exchanges?    Is the new Wyndham going to handle its own exchanges or still funnel them all through RCI?


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## boyblue (Feb 11, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> Carolinian,
> 
> It's just that you are such a draw on TUG that everyone follows you around.  You are a TUG superstar.



Yea Mon, I'm A big fan.


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 11, 2006)

getreal said:
			
		

> Is this in any way going to change RCI's monopoly on exchanges?    Is the new Wyndham going to handle its own exchanges or still funnel them all through RCI?



The best analogy that I can come up with for RCI is AT&T.  It was once a proud monopoly for over 100 years.  Then, after several anti-trust lawsuits, it finally agreement in a consent decree to spin off all of its local Bell Operating Companies to compete in the much sexier computer industry and long distance services.  That was a dumb mistake because it turns out that local service is all that matters.  There is no room in the telephone business for a distinction between local and long distance telephone service.  But, in the intervening 20 years between 1984 and 2004, every business model was tried and failed.  So now, all the long distance only companies are dead and the only thing that remains are integrated local, long distance and cell phone companies.  The way it was in 1983.

I believe the same will be true for timeshare exchange.  There really is no need for an exchange company.  All you really need are extremely efficient rental sites and large, mega resort groups.  A mega resort group is like a Fairfield, Bluegreen, WorldMark, Marriott, Hyatt, Starwood, etc.  These resort groups aggregate their resorts and have or could/should have their own internal reservation systems.  There is no need for an exchange company except for when their owners want to go outside of the system.  But, over time, there won't be any need for exchange companies because those mega resort groups will do direct exchanges between them (say a WorldMark for a Bluegreen).  The market for third party exchange will get smaller and smaller over time.  There is no need to pay $89 for an RCI membership, $149 for an exchange when all you need to do is call up your resort group toll free number and book a unit for free.

So, if I were the CEO of RCI or II, I would rather be Franz Hanning at Fairfield or George Donovan at Bluegreen.


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## getreal (Feb 11, 2006)

Boca

That is a very lucid argument.    I think many people would love to be rid of RCI's high-handed way of dealing with us.


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 11, 2006)

getreal said:
			
		

> Boca
> 
> That is a very lucid argument.    I think many people would love to be rid of RCI's high-handed way of dealing with us.



RCI's real competitors are Redweek, Myresortnetwork.com and eBay.  Timeshare owners can either deposit their week into the RCI black hole or list their timeshare for rent on these sites and then use the cash to rent something from someone else or do a direct exchange.

Redweek, myresortnetwork and eBay are all open, transparent systems.  And, trading power is self evident and market based.  The point system is the US Dollar, one of the strongest currencies in the world.

Now, flash forward a few years and imagine owning a few mini-systems that have little or no reservation fee.  You either book the week or partial week stay you want on a first come, first served basis.  Or, you place your time for rent on Redweek.com.  No need for RCI or II.  Done.


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## timeos2 (Feb 11, 2006)

*This is at best a 1/4 truth*



			
				getreal said:
			
		

> I think they did ... look at http://www.timeshareforums.com/showthread.php?t=151 (post #3)
> 
> Implicit in your reply is that they no longer have it.  Another score for RCI !


And so one of the reasons I tend to take statements by outsiders and the press in general with a grain of salt. I see it all too often when a general news outlet tries to cover a story about a technical company such as Microsoft or AOL. They tend to use what they think is "common knowledge" rather than actually researching what is involved and often come to completely incorrect conclusions.  Unfortunatley I see a similar pattern regarding exchange companies - RCI in particular - where "eveyone knows" what they are doing based not on personal information but inuenedo, "insider" leaks and speculation. All may be correct but my experience with that approach to obtaining "facts" in areas where I do have knowledge has a long history of arriiving at erroneous answers. 

So heres another case where I happen to have personal contacts at the highest levels of a company in a business relationship.  And the facts don't support the theory.  Yes, VRI once published a book of resorts and gave the impression that they were an exchange company. But they were in fact using RCI services in a trial to see if that was a business they wished to get into. In the end they decided it was too expensive to set up correctly and opted to revise the agreement with RCI to offer the now well known VRI internal trade advantage. They have also talked about a similar arrangement with II but that hasn't happened so far. 

So RCI had nothing to "take" or "score" on in this case. Yet a viable case was made by piling one wrong assumption on another until reaching an incorrect conclusion. I have the sneaking suspicion that if we actually had real experience in the operation of the exchange companies many of those assumptions that seem so obvious would also turn out to be at best only partially correct or a worst completely false. Experience says that is far more likely than finding all the "common knowledge" to be on the mark.


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## getreal (Feb 11, 2006)

*1/4 truth and 3/4 arrogance*

timeos2

It may happen from time to time that you have better information than a single post.   But you do not know everything.   

In this case you claim to know more than a post I referred to.  That may be true.  But that was just one example of the trend I was describing.

And once I stripped down the patronizing tone of your post, I realized that you did not refute the basic idea, namely that RCI is a dominant, monopolistic player in the timeshare exchange field, and they have been gobbling up other exchange companies.

I still assume this to be true.   Do you concur?


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## timeos2 (Feb 11, 2006)

*A little knowlodge can be very dangerous*

Well no one knows everything - I certainly fall in that group!  Most of us learn something new every day.  

As for RCI they are the biggest and thus the easiest target.  Heck, I rail against the big boys all the time in other fields and I'm not too happy with RCI either. But I don't think they are the devil. They are in a cut throat business that is in a sea of change - for that matter what business isn't right now - and they are able to take steps most companies can't afford to. One difference with RCI or, in the bigger picture Cendant, is that they are an optional, luxury type provider.  No one is forced to use any of their services unlike your local power company or some rather well known software vendors who can in fact manipulate the whole market due to monopoly powers.  RCI is dominant but not a monopoly. They could have been if the one time swallowing of II had occurred but the government correctly prevented that.  

Yes RCI is a fierce competitor and they are changing the rules in timeshare exchange to fit what they see as the future. Don't use them if you don't trust them or feel they are on the wrong path.  I don't think it's fair to paint them as dishonest unless we had verifiable proof. As great as the few inside sources we do have may be we don't know what bias or agendas they may have or what level of corporate information they can gain access to.  And I repeat that what may seem obvious on the surface to an outsider is all too often incorrect.  

As for other exchange companies being gobbled up the ones listed aren't exchange based but resort operators and / or developers some of which have internal trade systems.  They were some of the very systems that threatened the old RCI model and seem to have helped push them into a points system of their own to remain competitive.  In the end the model Boca sees may be much closer to the final result.  If cash is the "points" used you don't need a broker any longer.  If renting and shear numbers of different available unit types are going to rule then the Cendant move to buy up many sources makes perfect sense.  But now I'm making assumptions based on an outside view of an organization I know nothing about.  Dangerous territory for anyone to tread.  I'm reminded of a classic Don Martin cartoon in MAD magazine of a dinosaur who dies, is buried and found thousands of years later. The "experts" of the modern day recreate his skeleton in the funniest way and display it as an example of what the beast looked like.  That type of flawed expertise is far too common yet often believed by the masses who simply have no other source for their "facts".


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 11, 2006)

getreal said:
			
		

> timeos2
> 
> It may happen from time to time that you have better information than a single post.   But you do not know everything.
> 
> ...



I am not sure where you are coming from.  VRI is a management company, not an exchange company.  What they have done is a great job at managing a bunch of resorts and then negotiating a very good deal with RCI for its members.  That VRI preference is to die for.

Unless I missed something, RCI doesn't own VRI.

All mini-systems use their deposit power to negotiate a great deal with the exchange companies.

As far a RCI being a monopoly, I don't agree that they are.  There are two companies of roughly equal size and all resorts have the choice of affiliating with either II or RCI or both.  Like any business, I am sure that RCI and II do their best to offer special benefits to those resorts that provide exclusive access to their exchange services.


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## getreal (Feb 11, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> As far a RCI being a monopoly, I don't agree that they are.  There are two companies of roughly equal size and all resorts have the choice of affiliating with either II or RCI or both.  Like any business, I am sure that RCI and II do their best to offer special benefits to those resorts that provide exclusive access to their exchange services.



Boca / timeos2

I called RCI monopolistic, i.e. they act as if they have a monopoly, and that you have to deal with them on their terms. 

RCI's terms typically are: Please deposit your week and we will offer you the exchanges options that we want.    

At other markets (whether you buy clothes, cars or groceries) you can see what you will get, before you pay.   RCI can get away with this business model due to their dominant size.   

Do you agree up to this point ?

As for the future, I still see RCI's power increasing, Boca predicted that the market direction will make them obsolete.  We seem to differ on that.


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## timeos2 (Feb 11, 2006)

getreal said:
			
		

> Boca / timeos2
> 
> I called RCI monopolistic, i.e. they act as if they have a monopoly, and that you have to deal with them on their terms.
> 
> ...



I agree the model is bad but since it is an option the use it the fault lies with the members that are willing to accept it.  I prefer any service I use to have open pricing so I can decide if it's of value or not.  RCI, II and most other weeks based systems simply don't offer that.  I choose not to utilize them for the majority of my timeshare trades largely due to that secrecy.  If I were forced to be an RCI member and use the weeks system I would 100% agree that they would then be a monopoly.  The "Please" in the request means they can't control my time unless I willingly give it to them thus agreeing to those terms.


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## RonaldCol (Feb 12, 2006)

*Getting into the Fray ...*

Sorry, folks, I just started reading this thread. Who's involved here? How do I get into THIS fray? Who's my tag team partner(s)?


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## getreal (Feb 12, 2006)

*Too late, too late*



			
				RonaldCol said:
			
		

> ... How do I get into THIS fray? ...


I think you are too late for THIS one ... but if you look around, you may find another one soon.


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 12, 2006)

RonaldCol said:
			
		

> Sorry, folks, I just started reading this thread. Who's involved here? How do I get into THIS fray? Who's my tag team partner(s)?



I think Bruce needs a team mate.  Isn't TUG fun?


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## RonaldCol (Feb 13, 2006)

There is the AM and the PM. AM means Pre-Moderator Input and PM Post-Moderator Input. 

I miss the days of AM, when there were routine character assassinations on TUG, back biting, sniping, allusions of immoral beliefs, misinterpretations of threads and postings, thread-nappings, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Those were the good old days, the days of the "Pre-Awakening."


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## Carolinian (Feb 13, 2006)

RonaldCol said:
			
		

> There is the AM and the PM. AM means Pre-Moderator Input and PM Post-Moderator Input.
> 
> I miss the days of AM, when there were routine character assassinations on TUG, back biting, sniping, allusions of immoral beliefs, misinterpretations of threads and postings, thread-nappings, yadda, yadda, yadda.
> 
> Those were the good old days, the days of the "Pre-Awakening."



I would agree that there is now freer expression at www.timeshareforums.com and www.timesharetalk.co.uk


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