# vero beach



## flnewbie (Feb 6, 2018)

hi, I am a newbie looking to possibly buy some DVC resale - is Vero beach a good way to get in? are the benefits the same? lower maintenance fees maybe? are there any advantages to buying Vero? (we would stay there if only thing avail but would also want to trade into WDW properties as well)


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## chalee94 (Feb 6, 2018)

> is Vero beach a good way to get in?



not unless you intend to stay at VB a lot during the summer, no. it is a very poor choice to buy at VB intending to stay mostly at wdw.



> are the benefits the same?



mostly the same benefits as other resales but you lose the 11 month window onsite at wdw, which can be extremely important at certain times of the year. (most resale benefits have been going away in case you were not aware...)



> lower maintenance fees maybe?



much, much higher maintenance fees. part of the reason it's a poor choice.

even if you buy in more cheaply with a VB resale, the fees will cost you more over time.

and the hurricanes of 2017 came pretty close to crushing VB, which may have meant more fees in the form of a special assessment.

also, if any DVC resort were to be spun out of the DVC system completely, it would be VB (the chances of this are extremely remote, but not impossible - but it is very likely that in 2042, VB will be removed from the DVC system).

SSR is the best value if you just want to stay onsite at wdw.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 6, 2018)

I’d recommend buying at Animal Kingdom if you want to get in cheaper. It has the cheapest resale price per point for one of the nicest resorts with a long expiration date. Saratoga and Old Key West are a little less price per point but the resale value is decreasing, you will get less time on the contract and I hear they are not as upscale as all the other DVCs and they are just as far from Magic Kingdom and they are just resorts with no theme park attached. I suspect AK resale will hold its value plus you can then book the value rooms there and save a lot of points and stay more days. Of course, best choices are the monorail resorts but they are more expensive to start with on a price per point basis. We own at Grand Floridian, Grand Cal, Aulani, Animal Kingdom and Poly.


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## AnnaS (Feb 9, 2018)

I agree with the above.  Do not buy Vero unless you plan on staying there most of the time.  MF very high.
Go with SSR, OKW or AKV.  Good luck!


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## flnewbie (Feb 9, 2018)

Thanks for the great replies  I think I am going to look into resale AKV!


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## Dean (Feb 10, 2018)

flnewbie said:


> hi, I am a newbie looking to possibly buy some DVC resale - is Vero beach a good way to get in? are the benefits the same? lower maintenance fees maybe? are there any advantages to buying Vero? (we would stay there if only thing avail but would also want to trade into WDW properties as well)


Somewhat duplicate but I'll add my take.  As noted, do not buy VB unless you want to stay there routinely.  It's cheaper per point but more on dues and in the long haul, that will cost more than the lower cost would save.  Plus if WDW is the goal you'd always have to wait until the 7 month window.  SSR is the best value and it's only 3 years less than AKV.  It also has lower dues than AKV and along with BLT, the lowest of the system with both likely staying lower and I suspect, advancing at a slightly lower pace.  For WDW SSR will be the best value just to get into the system, BLT will be second with AKV likely third.  The off property options can be useful but again, only if on intends to use them a fair portion of the time.  The best off property values $$$ wise will be Aulani or VB with a subsidized contract or HHI.  I would not buy OKW unless one wants a 3 BR there most of the time because of the higher dues, shorter expiration and the risk of the transition from the 2042 expiration to the 2057 group.

Obviously there is more than just the financial components but it is a big portion and for many, it is a requisite.  Some of the resorts have options that may be cheaper that you'd have to both own there AND reserve at exactly 11 months out.  These include BWV, BLT & VGV standard and AKV value & concierge.  If one would use these lower point villas around 80% of the time or more, they will cut some of the costs IF one actually buys the lower points needed.  In reality most won't actually use them enough to make a difference plus if one owns say SSR, it'd still be as cheap or cheaper to use for AKV or BLT than owning there and using the cheaper rooms one couldn't get at the 7 month window.  For example, the last time I did the calculation, one would have to stay in an AKV value room at least 2/3 of the time and buy less points compared to using SSR points for a standard at AKV.  I haven't run the numbers for SSR vs BLT but I suspect they are similar but the principles will hold regardless.  BLT will have a higher buy in cost but you'd need about 5-10% less points if one made use of the BLT standard.  

Lastly, no one new to DVC without a ton of general on site stays at similar (deluxe) resorts, knows where they want to stay though many think they do, they often get caught up in the emotions.  Preferences will change quickly for almost all.  The most common mistakes I see with those buying in is overbuying the resort, and buying too few or too many points early on.  For most situations, esp those not comparing to a 1 or 2 BR in magic season or higher, they should buy a cushion of points in the 10-20% range.  More for studios, less for larger villas.  And as a rule one should look to buy a full sized contract of around 150 points minimum and for most, a 25 pt retail add on contract if that doesn't put them too far over on the number of points they would use keeping the cushion in mind.  I feel this is best even if they don't think they will use the current discounts, I'd think of it as insurance against future changes.  For those looking at significantly less than 150-175 total the 25 pt add on likely isn't worth it unless they will know they will get significant benefit from the perks.  And for those thinking a lot more points and multiple home resort, they should buy some at one resort and try it and then stretch out their purchase decision by a couple of years or more in many cases.


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## Mosescan (Feb 17, 2018)

If I had, for example, 3 different contracts of 100 points each and 3 different resorts, could I use all 300 points to book at one of those resorts 11 months out or am I restricted to only using the points from that resort to book at the 11 month window? I am wondering because if I could use all of the points then it would make sense to buy most of your points at the best price and maint fee level and get a small contract where you actually want to stay most of the time.

Thanks,


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## AnnaS (Feb 17, 2018)

Mosescan said:


> If I had, for example, 3 different contracts of 100 points each and 3 different resorts, could I use all 300 points to book at one of those resorts 11 months out or am I restricted to only using the points from that resort to book at the 11 month window? I am wondering because if I could use all of the points then it would make sense to buy most of your points at the best price and maint fee level and get a small contract where you actually want to stay most of the time.
> 
> Thanks,



No, you can book 11 months out for each resort you own at.  You cannot combine all 300 for one resort.  You can bank/and/or borrow for that particular resort.


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## Mosescan (Feb 17, 2018)

So there is no point in having a bunch of small contracts at different resorts. I’m better to just have 1 large contract where I want to stay most often. 

I think this is 1 timeshare I will definitely try before I buy. If we’re only going to use it every few years, I may be better just renting. I have lots of HGVC so I only want the DVC for that true Disney experience for my kids.


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## Dean (Feb 17, 2018)

Mosescan said:


> So there is no point in having a bunch of small contracts at different resorts. I’m better to just have 1 large contract where I want to stay most often.
> 
> I think this is 1 timeshare I will definitely try before I buy. If we’re only going to use it every few years, I may be better just renting. I have lots of HGVC so I only want the DVC for that true Disney experience for my kids.


There can be a point depending on how you'd use it.  I would not buy without a fair amount of experience in at least 2 of 3 areas (DVC, Disney deluxe, timeshares in general).  The more knowledge and experience the better but obviously one has given up savings by delaying too far into the game.  I would not buy planning to go every few years.  I think EOY is workable but every third year questionable at best.  Plus the savings of buying for less trips is less as well.  Things are at a high right now and there will be a pullback in price at some point though when and whether it's worth waiting is unknown.  IMO the biggest issue is whether to buy DVC at all but after that the choice of home resort, UY & # of points is still VERY important.  MOST people buying in initially make significant mistakes.  They buy too few or too many points, they overpay by getting the newer most expensive resorts, they buy retail when they shouldn't and they rarely know enough to make good decisions.  The exceptions are few but include people that have a ton of experience in the areas I mentioned, former DVC members, and those with a significant exposure to the system from family/friends.  While some uncertainty will always be present, once one is sufficiently educated AND has the appropriate level of experience, they should KNOW what's best for them not just think they know.  Statements like, this was our first trip or I've always wanted to stay at X resort so that's where I bought instantly tell you they did not make an informed decision and they're chance of it being a good one in their situation is low but they might luck out.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 18, 2018)

What I like about DVC is if you change your vacation patterns or make rookie mistakes, it is easy to resell your points or rent them out for about double the MFs. I am sure I have made rookie mistakes but I made the best decisions at the time I decided. Also it is nice to stay at the deluxe resorts. The MFs are fairly low compared to the market rate for DVC deluxe resorts.


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## Dean (Feb 18, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> What I like about DVC is if you change your vacation patterns or make rookie mistakes, it is easy to resell your points or rent them out for about double the MFs. I am sure I have made rookie mistakes but I made the best decisions at the time I decided. Also it is nice to stay at the deluxe resorts. The MFs are fairly low compared to the market rate for DVC deluxe resorts.


But there still a real cost to do so in the range of10 to 15% of the previous cost


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## Jayco29D (Feb 18, 2018)

Dean said:


> But there still a real cost to do so in the range of10 to 15% of the previous cost



Yes but this is vacation, not an investment. It is a usage based product like a car. If you can resell your timeshare for 10%-15% less than you paid in just a couple of years, that sounds like a good decision even if you made rookie mistakes or change your vacation patterns. That is why TUG is so helpful. We all know timeshares and vacations are indulgences to begin with. On TUG, I constantly hear people talking about re-balancing their timeshare portfolio. Who can predict what they will be doing in 3, 5, 10 or 20 years? You could rent at all the DVCs to figure out what you like but that is very expensive too. It’s better to make the best decision with available information and not have regrets. I know I would not be happy with Saratoga Springs so I would never buy that resort, no matter what the financials.


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## Dean (Feb 19, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Yes but this is vacation, not an investment. It is a usage based product like a car. If you can resell your timeshare for 10%-15% less than you paid in just a couple of years, that sounds like a good decision even if you made rookie mistakes or change your vacation patterns. That is why TUG is so helpful. We all know timeshares and vacations are indulgences to begin with. On TUG, I constantly hear people talking about re-balancing their timeshare portfolio. Who can predict what they will be doing in 3, 5, 10 or 20 years? You could rent at all the DVCs to figure out what you like but that is very expensive too. It’s better to make the best decision with available information and not have regrets. I know I would not be happy with Saratoga Springs so I would never buy that resort, no matter what the financials.


IMO that it's discretionary spending/vacation doesn't give one a pass on the goal to make good decisions with finances.  And depending on the choices made it may not be $2000 but $10K for a retail purchase.  IMO the car example is a good one but likely not how you're thinking, buying a new car and deciding in a year you don't like it and then sell it to buy something else is possible but just as poor a choice financially.  While one can't truly predict what the future will hold, many of the issues can be anticipated if one just puts in the long term thinking.  Retirement, possible job changes, kids in activities and can't travel, I won't go as much as I think I will, and I won't like the resort I thought I would are all things that can and should be considered.  

I've been doing the timeshares and DVC thing a long time, since before the internet back to the Prodigy DVC BBS.  I've seen lots of people waste lots of money making poor, impulsive and emotional choices including financing at ridiculous rates and buying retail because they were more comfortable doing so.  If one makes a truly informed decision based on experience and real information, I'd agree with you, it's good to have the chance to adjust.  But for others reading, I'd strongly suggest they put in the time, work and money to make decisions based on true knowledge and experience rather than impulsing it because it's Disney and vacation.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 19, 2018)

I appreciate the good advice being shared on this thread and I am sure it is super helpful to the OP. I do not think anyone wrote that buying DVC (or any timeshare) should be an impulse decision and no one suggested buying and selling within one year. DVC is a luxury purchase. If people really want to maximize finances, there are more affordable ways to visit Disney in almost equivalent style (or perhaps better style for the less money, depending on your needs). In addition, going to Disney more than once or twice in a lifetime is not a very smart financial decision. Disney is an overpriced amusement park and not an efficient use of money (from a purely financial POV). People buy DVC and visit Disney because they love it. It is magical and Disney commands a premium for that magic. Staying on site at a DVC resort is a luxury and very few people can afford it, especially at rack rates. To maximize finances, I would not recommend buying at DVC. My only point was if you do not make a perfect decision, you can at least get most or all of your money back with DVC, unlike other timeshares.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 19, 2018)

Just for comparison purposes, I randomly grabbed two pending sales listings from DVC Resale Market. Regardless of this small price difference, I would choose Animal Kingdom over Saratoga Springs. AK is a deluxe resort with a theme park. AK is beloved by many people for the animals. Saratoga Springs is the lower end of DVC resorts and has no theme park and just as far from Magic Kingdom as AK. AK has value rooms that are super affordable for point usage. There are cheaper and more expensive point packages for these resorts but I was looking for the cheapest currently on DVC Resale Market for a mid-sized point package to make the closest possible apples to apples package comparison for pending sales for SS vs AK. I was actually shocked to see that I could find a cheaper AK package since usually SS is lower price per point (all things being equal).

Saratoga Springs

ID: SS9569
160 0 | 160 | 160 Sep $97 $15,520

Animal Kingdom

ID: AK60060
160 0 | 162 | 160 Jun $95 $15,200


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## Dean (Feb 19, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Just for comparison purposes, I randomly grabbed two pending sales listings from DVC Resale Market. Regardless of this small price difference, I would choose Animal Kingdom over Saratoga Springs. AK is a deluxe resort with a theme park. AK is beloved by many people for the animals. Saratoga Springs is the lower end of DVC resorts and has no theme park and just as far from Magic Kingdom as AK. AK has value rooms that are super affordable for point usage. There are cheaper and more expensive point packages for these resorts but I was looking for the cheapest currently on DVC Resale Market for a mid-sized point package to make the closest possible apples to apples package comparison for pending sales for SS vs AK. I was actually shocked to see that I could find a cheaper AK package since usually SS is lower price per point (all things being equal).
> 
> Saratoga Springs
> 
> ...


Looking at dues alone there is a significant long term cost for AKV over SSR.  The last time I compared all the numbers it was 20% more over like 30 assuming equal inflation.  If one uses value at AKV that changes the numbers but the last time I did it was before the change in booking categories which also changes the numbers.  While you might personally be talking about variations at entry level, many looking at buying in talk themselves into poor choices.  The way I answer such questions is to the masses as well.


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## littlestar (Feb 19, 2018)

I would go for SSR resale. You are close to Disney Springs with all the restaurants and shopping. AKL is dark, isolated with only one park close by bus, and more expensive dues.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 19, 2018)

Dean said:


> Looking at dues alone there is a significant long term cost for AKV over SSR.  The last time I compared all the numbers it was 20% more over like 30 assuming equal inflation.  If one uses value at AKV that changes the numbers but the last time I did it was before the change in booking categories which also changes the numbers.  While you might personally be talking about variations at entry level, many looking at buying in talk themselves into poor choices.  The way I answer such questions is to the masses as well.



Hi Dean, Just out of curiosity, which timeshares do you own? Which ones do you think are the best overall? You seem to have a lot of TS experience so it would be helpful to know more on your overall preferences and rationales. It is always interesting to me when I read your opinions on the various threads.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 19, 2018)

P.S. I agree with Dean that from a purely economics point of view, Saratoga Springs is the cheapest to own. The MFs are a lot cheaper and could save about $1 per point per year - which adds up over time.


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## Dean (Feb 19, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Hi Dean, Just out of curiosity, which timeshares do you own? Which ones do you think are the best overall? You seem to have a lot of TS experience so it would be helpful to know more on your overall preferences and rationales. It is always interesting to me when I read your opinions on the various threads.


I'm Chairman's (top VIP) with Marriott with 16 weeks total, Platinum with Bluegreen (their highest VIP) with over 100,000 points and own a small amount each of an RCI points resort, Mx week (points individual resort) & Wyndham Points plus 433 points with DVC down from 885 years ago.  Bought DVC likely as the first non family resale buyer if not the first true resale buyer period back in 1994 and Marriott fairly shortly thereafter.  I've seen a lot come through, especially with DVC, and seen a lot of people waste lots of money, often 5 figures worth buying things that won't work how they envision.  There are few things better than Disney at separating people from their money making poor decisions they feel great about.  I've also sold some timeshares over the years, including a couple of Marriott, chunk of DVC points all at OKW, a second contract at the MX resort and several fixed week/fixed units at an Aruba resort.  Thus I consider myself more educated than most for Bluegreen, Marriott, DVC and Interval/RCI esp.  And my greatest area of knowledge and experience is with DVC.  I've made a lot of good choices, sometimes by chance and avoided a lot of potential mistakes, also sometimes by chance.  For example, the Aruba resort I mentioned was the one I both bought and sold weeks then later bought weeks which I ended up converting to Bluegreen.  They had 3 special assessments while I was involved but by chance I missed the first 2 because I didn't own at weeks at the time of the SA and the last I missed most of it because I'd converted to BG points and the SA was spread over a very large group of people.  That one would have been $10K had I not lucked out.  



Jayco29D said:


> P.S. I agree with Dean that from a purely economics point of view, Saratoga Springs is the cheapest to own. The MFs are a lot cheaper and could save about $1 per point per year - which adds up over time.


Obviously there are variables, SSR is not the same as VGF for example.  So one who has a number of trips under their belt ON PROPERTY and is well aware of the actual DVC resorts and who has a clear understanding of their goals over say the next 7-10 years should be able to make good decisions.  Whether they will or not would remain to be seen.  I referenced some of the common mistakes I've seen above.  But there does come a time when one has to fish or cut bait.  I've also seen posts from people who have looked at DVC for a decade or more who clearly are (and were) good candidates for DVC membership and haven't bought.  But the issue is that the savings they've given up is minor compared to the impact for some of mistakes.  Things like not only financing a timeshare but putting one's home at risk to do so.  As I said, I often post to those reading now or in the future as much or more than to the specific post or person I'm replying to.  So while you and I might quibble about whether we should buy SSR, AKV, BWV or BLT all resale for example; the ultimate decision for an individual may impact both their financial well-being and their usage/enjoyment of what they own.  There are clearly situations where buying top or bottom or in between is best and where buying retail is best.  But one who buys say VGF retail and uses at other locations most of the time literally spent an extra $10-15K they didn't need to AND they may not be able to use it how they want/envision.  And that $10K will be $50K when one looks at what they could have done with the extra funds that were wasted.  We don't want make perfect the enemy of good but we want to avoid as many mistakes and make as good choices as possible.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 20, 2018)

Thanks Dean. Your personal experience and background with timeshares is impressive. I admire that you are posting on TUG to help others avoid making big financial mistakes. I tend to comment from what I like personally, with a little less overall concern for the financial implications. However, I am value conscious and do not want to waste our hard earned money either. TUG - and folks like you with a lot of timeshare experience - have helped me immensely in saving a lot of money in many ways. I am sure others feel the same way. It’s helpful to know you have a lot of experience with DVC, Marriott and Interval/RCI. I look forward to learning more from you.


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## littlestar (Feb 20, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Thanks Dean. Your personal experience and background with timeshares is impressive. I admire that you are posting on TUG to help others avoid making big financial mistakes. I tend to comment from what I like personally, with a little less overall concern for the financial implications. However, I am value conscious and do not want to waste our hard earned money either. TUG - and folks like you with a lot of timeshare experience - have helped me immensely in saving a lot of money in many ways. I am sure others feel the same way. It’s helpful to know you have a lot of experience with DVC, Marriott and Interval/RCI. I look forward to learning more from you.


Dean's advice years ago on the Dis boards gave me the courage and information to buy our first Marriott.


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## Dean (Feb 20, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Thanks Dean. Your personal experience and background with timeshares is impressive. I admire that you are posting on TUG to help others avoid making big financial mistakes. I tend to comment from what I like personally, with a little less overall concern for the financial implications. However, I am value conscious and do not want to waste our hard earned money either. TUG - and folks like you with a lot of timeshare experience - have helped me immensely in saving a lot of money in many ways. I am sure others feel the same way. It’s helpful to know you have a lot of experience with DVC, Marriott and Interval/RCI. I look forward to learning more from you.


That's the beauty of places like TUG, the group mentality to help each other.  We each bring something to the table.


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## Southerngirl528 (Feb 20, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Hi Dean, Just out of curiosity, which timeshares do you own? Which ones do you think are the best overall? You seem to have a lot of TS experience so it would be helpful to know more on your overall preferences and rationales. It is always interesting to me when I read your opinions on the various threads.



I've wondered the same thing, Jayco29D, as Dean seems to have a lot of background. 



Dean said:


> I'm Chairman's (top VIP) with Marriott with 16 weeks total, Platinum with Bluegreen (their highest VIP) with over 100,000 points and own a small amount each of an RCI points resort, Mx week (points individual resort) & Wyndham Points plus 433 points with DVC down from 885 years ago. Bought DVC likely as the first non family resale buyer if not the first true resale buyer period back in 1994 and Marriott fairly shortly thereafter. I've seen a lot come through, especially with DVC, and seen a lot of people waste lots of money, often 5 figures worth buying things that won't work how they envision. There are few things better than Disney at separating people from their money making poor decisions they feel great about. I've also sold some timeshares over the years, including a couple of Marriott, chunk of DVC points all at OKW, a second contract at the MX resort and several fixed week/fixed units at an Aruba resort. Thus I consider myself more educated than most for Bluegreen, Marriott, DVC and Interval/RCI esp. And my greatest area of knowledge and experience is with DVC. I've made a lot of good choices, sometimes by chance and avoided a lot of potential mistakes, also sometimes by chance. For example, the Aruba resort I mentioned was the one I both bought and sold weeks then later bought weeks which I ended up converting to Bluegreen. They had 3 special assessments while I was involved but by chance I missed the first 2 because I didn't own at weeks at the time of the SA and the last I missed most of it because I'd converted to BG points and the SA was spread over a very large group of people. That one would have been $10K had I not lucked out.



Fascinating! Thanks for posting this, Dean.   So you obviously are a fan of TS!   Do you mostly rent, or are you semi-retired making the rounds of all those fabulous TS you have?


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## Dean (Feb 20, 2018)

Southerngirl528 said:


> I've wondered the same thing, Jayco29D, as Dean seems to have a lot of background.
> 
> 
> 
> Fascinating! Thanks for posting this, Dean.   So you obviously are a fan of TS!   Do you mostly rent, or are you semi-retired making the rounds of all those fabulous TS you have?


A little of both.  I'm still working full time but full time today means I'm traveling 5-6 weeks a year usually with multiple units.  Last summer we had 8 villas in HH for a family trip of 51 people, the year before was 10 villas at Ocean Pointe (2 & 3 BR).  I've basically positioned myself for retirement and to cover large family trips and at times I do rent, esp my DVC and Grande Ocean weeks.  I might add that of the ownerships I mentioned above including over 20 fixed weeks in Aruba over time, there have been exactly 3 retail purchases and all with a purpose.  For Marriott it was a Surfwatch week which made my 3 retail Grande Ocean weeks become qualified and eligible for reward points well before the DC came around.  For DVC it was a 100 point AKV retail purchase (4*25) with the goal of selling all and keeping 25 to be qualified and get the perks, I just never got around to it.  I usually do rent out my DVC points and almost all of my stays have been on exchanges.  The third retail purchase was a 3000 pt bluegreen purchase converting the aruba weeks I owned at the time to points and to be qualified and giving me then Gold and later Platinum status.  Of those the Marriott purchase was clearly the worst and the BG clearly the best choice.  But part of it was luck and part planning.  I'd say looking at DVC esp it's often easy to tell if someone is making a poor choice but much more difficult to know if they're making a good one because of the individual nuances we wouldn't be privy to on a BBS.  Much like what's the best Marriott to buy? because it depends on many variables.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 20, 2018)

Dean said:


> A little of both.  I'm still working full time but full time today means I'm traveling 5-6 weeks a year usually with multiple units.  Last summer we had 8 villas in HH for a family trip of 51 people, the year before was 10 villas at Ocean Pointe (2 & 3 BR).  I've basically positioned myself for retirement and to cover large family trips and at times I do rent, esp my DVC and Grande Ocean weeks.  I might add that of the ownerships I mentioned above including over 20 fixed weeks in Aruba over time, there have been exactly 3 retail purchases and all with a purpose.  For Marriott it was a Surfwatch week which made my 3 retail Grande Ocean weeks become qualified and eligible for reward points well before the DC came around.  For DVC it was a 100 point AKV retail purchase (4*25) with the goal of selling all and keeping 25 to be qualified and get the perks, I just never got around to it.  I usually do rent out my DVC points and almost all of my stays have been on exchanges.  The third retail purchase was a 3000 pt bluegreen purchase converting the aruba weeks I owned at the time to points and to be qualified and giving me then Gold and later Platinum status.  Of those the Marriott purchase was clearly the worst and the BG clearly the best choice.  But part of it was luck and part planning.  I'd say looking at DVC esp it's often easy to tell if someone is making a poor choice but much more difficult to know if they're making a good one because of the individual nuances we wouldn't be privy to on a BBS.  Much like what's the best Marriott to buy? because it depends on many variables.



Interesting background, Dean. How do you know when someone is making a poor choice in purchasing DVC?


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## Southerngirl528 (Feb 20, 2018)

Dean said:


> A little of both. I'm still working full time but full time today means I'm traveling 5-6 weeks a year usually with multiple units. Last summer we had 8 villas in HH for a family trip of 51 people, the year before was 10 villas at Ocean Pointe (2 & 3 BR). I've basically positioned myself for retirement and to cover large family trips and at times I do rent, esp my DVC and Grande Ocean weeks. I might add that of the ownerships I mentioned above including over 20 fixed weeks in Aruba over time, there have been exactly 3 retail purchases and all with a purpose. For Marriott it was a Surfwatch week which made my 3 retail Grande Ocean weeks become qualified and eligible for reward points well before the DC came around. For DVC it was a 100 point AKV retail purchase (4*25) with the goal of selling all and keeping 25 to be qualified and get the perks, I just never got around to it. I usually do rent out my DVC points and almost all of my stays have been on exchanges. The third retail purchase was a 3000 pt bluegreen purchase converting the aruba weeks I owned at the time to points and to be qualified and giving me then Gold and later Platinum status. Of those the Marriott purchase was clearly the worst and the BG clearly the best choice. But part of it was luck and part planning. I'd say looking at DVC esp it's often easy to tell if someone is making a poor choice but much more difficult to know if they're making a good one because of the individual nuances we wouldn't be privy to on a BBS. Much like what's the best Marriott to buy? because it depends on many variables.



Wow! And here I thought I had a nice little TS collection with my 500 DVC points (which have been a wonderful purchase that I began when DVC was only a year old!), and 3 weeks at MMOC/Napili!!   Between you and a lot of other folks here, I feel like a beginner! LOL But I truly appreciate the input from others that have a great deal more expertise than myself.


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## Dean (Feb 20, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Interesting background, Dean. How do you know when someone is making a poor choice in purchasing DVC?


It would depend on specifics so  you'd have to look at each situation independently but clues are how emotional they are, that they've only been investigating a few weeks to a couple of months, that they haven't had much on property time, that they have never stayed with DVC or when they say things like "I always wanted to stay at X resort so I bought there" and/or they didn't feel comfortable going resale.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 20, 2018)

Hi Dean, Based on your criteria, we made a very bad decision to buy into DVC. I was emotional (eager to buy to prepare for our future adopted kids who have already lost half their childhood in a foreign orphanage), I only investigated about a month, I did not visit in advance (until recently when we went to Grand Cal) and I have never stayed at a DVC property - unless 30 years ago at Polynesian counts. However, we did buy 300 of our 470 points on the resale market - $82.50 per point for Aulani. That was probably the only “intelligent” thing I did. The good news is prices have gone up so much since we purchased that I think I will at least break even if we sell in the next few years. The other thing I like is I have 16 nights booked in 2018 in mainly 1 bedrooms that normally would cost $1000 to $1500 per night - and I still have points left over to bank into 2019.


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## Dean (Feb 21, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Hi Dean, Based on your criteria, we made a very bad decision to buy into DVC. I was emotional (eager to buy to prepare for our future adopted kids who have already lost half their childhood in a foreign orphanage), I only investigated about a month, I did not visit in advance (until recently when we went to Grand Cal) and I have never stayed at a DVC property - unless 30 years ago at Polynesian counts. However, we did buy 300 of our 470 points on the resale market - $82.50 per point for Aulani. That was probably the only “intelligent” thing I did. The good news is prices have gone up so much since we purchased that I think I will at least break even if we sell in the next few years. The other thing I like is I have 16 nights booked in 2018 in mainly 1 bedrooms that normally would cost $1000 to $1500 per night - and I still have points left over to bank into 2019.


Sometimes you get lucky and it works out, the problem is it often doesn't.


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## Mosescan (Feb 21, 2018)

Dean,

Do you really think there is going to be a pullback on prices in the resale market in the next few years? I'm honestly considering buying 150 points now and just renting them out every year until my kids are old enough to spend some time there. I figure with Dave's vacation rentals I could cover my maint fees and pocket $1000/year for 4 or 5  years until my kids are older. They are currently 4yo and 6 months. If I owned long enough I could theoretically pay for them with my rental income. I have to say that looking at the prices to rent for a week at the Disney resorts, I can understand how they are able to sell their timeshares so easily. It's $10k for a week in a 1 BR!!! I could spend a month in the Hilton Hawaiian Village and pay for my flights for that kind of money!

BUT!!! I want this experience for my kids and the cheapest way to get it is to own DVC points. 150 points would get us into a 1 BR savanna view at AK every other year. Owning there over SS means about $1/point more in maint fees, but they also rent for $1/point more that SS so at least while I'm renting them I'm breaking even WRT maint fees. The question is buy now while I can get them for around $95/point or wait and see if they come down in the next few years. As I said my kids aren't really going to appreciate the "Disney" experience for at least  5 more years so I've got time.

And my other question is what happens when the RTU runs out? They don't overtly mention an end date on their website but they do say that you will save x amount of money over the length of your membership implying that there is an end date.

Thanks,

Vic


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## Dean (Feb 21, 2018)

Mosescan said:


> Dean,
> 
> Do you really think there is going to be a pullback on prices in the resale market in the next few years? I'm honestly considering buying 150 points now and just renting them out every year until my kids are old enough to spend some time there. I figure with Dave's vacation rentals I could cover my maint fees and pocket $1000/year for 4 or 5  years until my kids are older. They are currently 4yo and 6 months. If I owned long enough I could theoretically pay for them with my rental income. I have to say that looking at the prices to rent for a week at the Disney resorts, I can understand how they are able to sell their timeshares so easily. It's $10k for a week in a 1 BR!!! I could spend a month in the Hilton Hawaiian Village and pay for my flights for that kind of money!
> 
> ...


There has to be some hiccups along the way as a minimum but for most I don't think it reasonable to wait to try to time it.  IF one is sufficiently educated, DVC makes sense and they can afford it (in my book that's cash); then I likely wouldn't wait trying to hit the sweet spot.  Just like taking that approach with the stock market, it often doesn't work out.  However, with the current setup and price, DVC doesn't makes sense for a lot of people today that it did make sense for 5 years ago looking at finances alone which I see as a trump card.  I'm not a big fan of buying to rent but I do think it often makes sense to do so here and there if you'll need more later and it allows you to buy a full sized contract of say 150 or greater.  I wouldn't buy just to use starting in 4-5 years though but if you'll use some now and more later, I might.  We're a few hours away and we feel that the grandkids appreciate Disney starting around 3-4 so for us, owning now would make sense putting ourselves in your situation though if I didn't own DVC currently but know what I know, I likely wouldn't buy in at all.

Financially it sounds like you're overly optimistic on the return.  Even buying, using all points yourself and comparing to reasonable metrics, breakeven is now over 20 years in most situation.  Common mistakes people make in comparing are they use DVC rack rates as their comparison when they wouldn't pay those rates otherwise and/or they forget the Time Value of Money/Opportunity cost portion.  The 2 best metrics are what you could rent for privately or what you would spend if you didn't own DVC if not renting privately with discounts.

As for experience, I wouldn't go all drama and take the stance that the only way to get a great experience is buying DVC.  The actual savings over what you could get without owning is relatively small on a 1-2 trip basis making, certainly not enough to rush in and buy just to get that savings.  That's a common mistake I see, rushing to buy conning oneself by trying to buy quickly for that next trip savings.  It causes a LOT of stress, often leads to poor choices and frequently costs money in the long run.  We find we're just as happy off property and to be honest, some of the off property options are better resorts with better rooms.  DVC excels in 2 areas, theming and location, otherwise they fall behind about 10-12 resorts in the area IMO.  And if one is trying to do Disney AND other location, DVC is an extremely poor choice to use for that and one would truly need to go with something like Marriott, Hilton, Bluegreen, Wyndham or similar for only one option.

As for AKV vs SSR, it's a personal choice.  IF owning DVC makes sense and AKV is where you want to spend most of your trips, it's not that big of a different enough to argue about since you pick up the home resort reservation priority.  But I wouldn't think renting is a long term plan, you're assuming the $1 pp spread is permanent (it likely isn't) and you're assuming you can't get what you want owning SSR which I also disagree with.  When most people are investigating DVC they tend to assume the current setup is the bottom and in reality it's likely the best case scenario with lots of pitfalls.

As for RTU, no one knows what options there might be or if those options will make sense, they didn't for OKW when it was offered.  I'd assume they just take them away on the end date for planning purposes.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 21, 2018)

Dean said:


> Sometimes you get lucky and it works out, the problem is it often doesn't.



Thanks Dean. I love reading your email replies and learning from your experience. The number 1 reason we bought without extensive research at DVC is for the kids. We know they love Disney because they asked us for Mickey watches for Christmas. We feel they have already lost half their life without parents, caring and love. I used to go to Walt Disney World three times a year as a child and it is some of my best memories. We already decorated their room all Disney and had a Disney-themed Christmas with them by Skype (sad but true - no kid deserves to be orphaned but at least they finally celebrated a Christmas with parents - us!). I decided I only want to stay in the parks at Disney because my worst memories of WDW as a child is the parking. Even as a kid, I hated staying offsite and the driving, traffic, crowds and parking far away. I hated the long lines as a kid too. We could never afford to stay onsite when I was a kid. When folks told me I need to take the kids to Disney, I poo-pooed it at first because of the bad memories of crowds and parking. Then I thought, if we can stay onsite, I would have a completely different experience - extra magic hours, airport transportation, member lounges, monorail, ability to take a break during the day in our room, etc. Now that we have the means, we can afford to be DVC members and the benefits of staying onsite alleviate many of my concerns about going to WDW. So we bought 470 points split between 5 home resorts last year to prepare for the kids arrival. I feel fortunate I discovered TUG and learned about the resale market. It would have cost $30,000 more to buy all the points we have now if we bought them all direct and also based on the recent price increases in both resale and direct points. I already booked 16 days of Disney vacations and got exactly what I wanted in terms of room categories and dates (with a few points leftover to bank in our 2019 use year) and purchased four Platinum Plus annual passes with last year's 25% discount, with the hope the kids will be here soon. It is great that we can activate the annual passes as late as Dec 31, 2018 but paid 2017 prices. We are planning two WDW trips out of our annual passes (one at the end of 2018 and another in summer 2019). I would never rent this many days for the same price we pay as DVC owners, nor would we be able to rent exactly the same days and room types we want without being owners at the various home resorts we chose. With an average price per night of $1000 (or more, esp for 1 bedrooms), 16 days in mostly 1 bedrooms would cost about $16,000+ retail - which is a huge percentage of what we paid for the points. The annual MFs on our points is only about $3200 a year. I know you say not to compare to retail prices. However, in our case, we only would rent direct from Disney or via Expedia - not from owners or on VRBO, AirBNB, Redweek or TUG. I do not like dealing with owners for renting. I doubt we would go through a Disney point rental broker either to book our own vacation (although we are open to renting our unused points to others). In the past (and even now), if I am not using my own timeshare, then I book directly from the hotel or resort company. I know it is more expensive this way but I have reasons why I like doing this. In the worst case, if we do not like a particular DVC home resort, we will sell or rent out the unused points to others. Points rent for about double the MFs. In the best case, we can start making magical memories with our kids this year. We have no regrets because DVC is one of the most stable timeshares on the market, even though it is also one of the most expensive ones. Just thought I'd share my rationale. I understand for people who are on limited budgets, they may not have the luxury to buy DVC without very thorough research and it might not make sense for many of the reasons Dean cited in this thread. I totally agree with Dean that it makes no sense to finance timeshares.


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## Dean (Feb 21, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Thanks Dean. I love reading your email replies and learning from your experience. The number 1 reason we bought without extensive research at DVC is for the kids. We know they love Disney because they asked us for Mickey watches for Christmas. We feel they have already lost half their life without parents, caring and love. I used to go to Walt Disney World three times a year as a child and it is some of my best memories. We already decorated their room all Disney and had a Disney-themed Christmas with them by Skype (sad but true - no kid deserves to be orphaned but at least they finally celebrated a Christmas with parents - us!). I decided I only want to stay in the parks at Disney because my worst memories of WDW as a child is the parking. Even as a kid, I hated staying offsite and the driving, traffic, crowds and parking far away. I hated the long lines as a kid too. We could never afford to stay onsite when I was a kid. When folks told me I need to take the kids to Disney, I poo-pooed it at first because of the bad memories of crowds and parking. Then I thought, if we can stay onsite, I would have a completely different experience - extra magic hours, airport transportation, member lounges, monorail, ability to take a break during the day in our room, etc. Now that we have the means, we can afford to be DVC members and the benefits of staying onsite alleviate many of my concerns about going to WDW. So we bought 470 points split between 5 home resorts last year to prepare for the kids arrival. I feel fortunate I discovered TUG and learned about the resale market. It would have cost $30,000 more to buy all the points we have now if we bought them all direct and also based on the recent price increases in both resale and direct points. I already booked 16 days of Disney vacations and got exactly what I wanted in terms of room categories and dates (with a few points leftover to bank in our 2019 use year) and purchased four Platinum Plus annual passes with last year's 25% discount, with the hope the kids will be here soon. It is great that we can activate the annual passes as late as Dec 31, 2018 but paid 2017 prices. We are planning two WDW trips out of our annual passes (one at the end of 2018 and another in summer 2019). I would never rent this many days for the same price we pay as DVC owners, nor would we be able to rent exactly the same days and room types we want without being owners at the various home resorts we chose. With an average price per night of $1000 (or more, esp for 1 bedrooms), 16 days in mostly 1 bedrooms would cost about $16,000+ retail - which is a huge percentage of what we paid for the points. The annual MFs on our points is only about $3200 a year. In the worst case, if we do not like a particular home resort, we will sell or rent the points. Points rent for about double the MFs. In the best case, we can start making magical memories with our kids this year. We have no regrets because DVC is one of the most stable timeshares on the market, even though it is also one of the most expensive ones.


I think you took a high risk approach but it'll likely work out.  Here's what I would suggest to you.  Think what if you'd done everything the way you did except you didn't find TUG and didn't find out enough to go resale and spent the extra $30K.  What you would tell people to avoid going forward, that's where I'm coming from except I know that for many doing the things the way you did, even with a lot of the same situation, often means they'll make poor choices.  Patience it peace.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 21, 2018)

Dean said:


> I think you took a high risk approach but it'll likely work out.  Here's what I would suggest to you.  Think what if you'd done everything the way you did except you didn't find TUG and didn't find out enough to go resale and spent the extra $30K.  What you would tell people to avoid going forward, that's where I'm coming from except I know that for many doing the things the way you did, even with a lot of the same situation, often means they'll make poor choices.  Patience it peace.



If I had not found TUG, I would not have bought DVC. I would not even know DVC existed. I went overboard with what I spent and I would not have spent $30,000 more to buy all direct from DVC at current prices. I did a ton of research in a short amount of time and ultimately the decision was based on adopting older kids and wanting to enjoy life with them as soon as possible hassle free as well as my dislike of staying offsite in Orlando hotels (at least 30 trips spent offsite as a child and teen). I do not think I would plan a trip to WDW if we did not stay onsite with all the conveniences of DVC.


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## Dean (Feb 21, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> If I had not found TUG, I would not have bought DVC. I would not even know DVC existed. I went overboard with what I spent and I would not have spent $30,000 more to buy all direct from DVC at current prices. I did a ton of research in a short amount of time and ultimately the decision was based on adopting older kids and wanting to enjoy life with them as soon as possible hassle free as well as my dislike of staying offsite in Orlando hotels (at least 30 trips spent offsite as a child and teen). I do not think I would plan a trip to WDW if we did not stay onsite with all the conveniences of DVC.


But a lot of people would.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 21, 2018)

Dean said:


> But a lot of people would.



I think if people are happy staying offsite, then they absolutely should not buy DVC. If folks are happy staying offsite, they could rent a 2 bedroom for $1000 or so per week in many great offsite hotels in Orlando. DVC is a luxury purchase. If I were reading this thread as a non-owner, I would not want to buy at DVC. In my opinion, there is no good *financial* reason for buying at DVC. There are many cheaper alternatives and no one needs DVC or Disney, for that matter.


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## Mosescan (Feb 21, 2018)

Disney, as are all timeshares really, is 100% luxury. If I buy it will be because I can afford that luxury and I want to share that luxury with my children to give them that Disney experience. I own a lot of HGVC points so I can stay in Orlando fairly close to the parks but I really want to try staying at the parks at least for the portion of a trip where we will be going to the parks. I think for now I will cool my jets and see if I can't manage to get a trade in through the RCI or registry collection. Honestly if I can get it that way then there is no need to even consider buying DVC. If I can't then I may have to consider it. Time will tell.


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## chalee94 (Feb 21, 2018)

Mosescan said:


> And my other question is what happens when the RTU runs out? They don't overtly mention an end date on their website but they do say that you will save x amount of money over the length of your membership implying that there is an end date.



When the RTU runs out, you own nothing and you owe nothing. The lease is over and everything on the land reverts to Disney's ownership. They can extend the current resort (as Dean said, the OKW extension was poorly planned), refurb and start offering another 50 year contract or tear it down and build a hotel or whatever they want.

The end dates (post 8) and a ton of other useful information for the DVC resorts can be found here:

https://www.disboards.com/threads/the-dvc-resource-center-updated-january-2018.3655476/


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## Jayco29D (Feb 21, 2018)

chalee94 said:


> When the RTU runs out, you own nothing and you owe nothing. The lease is over and everything on the land reverts to Disney's ownership. They can extend the current resort (as Dean said, the OKW extension was poorly planned), refurb and start offering another 50 year contract or tear it down and build a hotel or whatever they want.
> 
> The end dates (post 8) and a ton of other useful information for the DVC resorts can be found here:
> 
> https://www.disboards.com/threads/the-dvc-resource-center-updated-january-2018.3655476/



The way I look at it, I will be dead by the time the RTUs expire. LOL


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## Jayco29D (Feb 21, 2018)

We should start a thread called: Reasons Why You Bought at DVC. I suspect financial reasons will not be on the list. Or if it is on the list, we are all fooling ourselves!


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## Jayco29D (Feb 21, 2018)

Mosescan said:


> Disney, as are all timeshares really, is 100% luxury. If I buy it will be because I can afford that luxury and I want to share that luxury with my children to give them that Disney experience. I own a lot of HGVC points so I can stay in Orlando fairly close to the parks but I really want to try staying at the parks at least for the portion of a trip where we will be going to the parks. I think for now I will cool my jets and see if I can't manage to get a trade in through the RCI or registry collection. Honestly if I can get it that way then there is no need to even consider buying DVC. If I can't then I may have to consider it. Time will tell.



I agree, Disney is a luxury non-essential purchase. I have heard it is hard, if not impossible, to get a trade into a DVC resort. In reading through TUG, I think only Saratoga Springs may occasionally become available. I am sure the more experienced people like Dean would be able to comment on this. SFX has a few Disney resorts listed in their directory but they told me that they are never available for exchanging because DVC owners do not make deposits.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 21, 2018)

P.S. For me, one good reason to stay at an offsite hotel/resort would be if it is pet friendly. Disney resorts do not allow pets at all and their boarding facility is not overnight. Since we will not be driving to Orlando - we live in California - we would not bring our pets to WDW so this is not an issue for us in Orlando. However, for Disneyland in California, we may prefer to stay at a pet friendly hotel/resort instead of Grand Cal over the longer term. We have already scoped out the Anaheim area and visited several kennels for boarding our dogs while at Disneyland and staying at Grand Cal.


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## silentg (Feb 22, 2018)

With that many weeks, you must be paying lots of$$$ On Maintenence fees.
I have 7 timeshares and I pay a lot in Maintenence too!


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## Dean (Feb 22, 2018)

silentg said:


> With that many weeks, you must be paying lots of$$$ On Maintenence fees.
> I have 7 timeshares and I pay a lot in Maintenence too!


It is quite a bit but for how I use them it's still a deal.


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## Bailey#1 (Feb 23, 2018)

We bought DVC over 10 years ago, with the idea of vacationing with family, those plans worked out well.

Now we are adding on for our retirement and senior years. DVC is the most senior friendly timeshare out there, especially if you are flying. Honestly, you can vacation there well into your 80's, with not worrying about driving, luggage handling, and grocery shopping. We looked into buying a condo, 
but when we figured things out, it makes much more sense to buy into DVC. Sure there is more economical ways but everything has a price, and sometimes the more economical ways are more expensive.   

DVC has a strong resale, rental, family interest (meaning family will always visit you) value that if something should happen to us we would feel protected in a way that our family would not be in a bind over these timeshares. 

My point is that piece of mind has value to it. How much value depends on your value of time, safety, convenience, and added worries.


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## Dean (Feb 23, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> We should start a thread called: Reasons Why You Bought at DVC. I suspect financial reasons will not be on the list. Or if it is on the list, we are all fooling ourselves!


Unless there is a savings, it makes no sense to buy.  Obviously it depends on what you're comparing to, for DVC it's comparing to on property cash and/or DVC rental.


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## silentg (Feb 23, 2018)

We were able to stay at Disney Vero Beach on an RCI exchange about8 years ago. Is it harder to get now?


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## Dean (Feb 23, 2018)

silentg said:


> We were able to stay at Disney Vero Beach on an RCI exchange about8 years ago. Is it harder to get now?


Almost all of my DVC stays over the past 18 years have been on exchanges.  VB, OKW, VWL, SSR, BCV, BWV and AKV.  As many as 10 exchanges at one time for a family trip.  But it is more difficult, for WDW it's essentially only SSR 1 BR with a rare AKV or AKV 1 BR for the past 3 years.  I haven't looked at VB & HH but would figure they are available off season but not the rest.


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## silentg (Feb 23, 2018)

Yes we stayed in April 2010


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## Jayco29D (Feb 23, 2018)

silentg said:


> With that many weeks, you must be paying lots of$$$ On Maintenence fees.
> I have 7 timeshares and I pay a lot in Maintenence too!



I think the MFs are reasonable because before we discovered the upscale branded timeshare market, we stayed in small hotel rooms for $400-$600+ per night. Now we can stay in 1 and 2 bedrooms with kitchens for a fraction of the cost.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 23, 2018)

Bailey#1 said:


> We bought DVC over 10 years ago, with the idea of vacationing with family, those plans worked out well.
> 
> Now we are adding on for our retirement and senior years. DVC is the most senior friendly timeshare out there, especially if you are flying. Honestly, you can vacation there well into your 80's, with not worrying about driving, luggage handling, and grocery shopping. We looked into buying a condo,
> but when we figured things out, it makes much more sense to buy into DVC. Sure there is more economical ways but everything has a price, and sometimes the more economical ways are more expensive.
> ...



Totally agree!


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## Jayco29D (Feb 23, 2018)

Dean said:


> Almost all of my DVC stays over the past 18 years have been on exchanges.  VB, OKW, VWL, SSR, BCV, BWV and AKV.  As many as 10 exchanges at one time for a family trip.  But it is more difficult, for WDW it's essentially only SSR 1 BR with a rare AKV or AKV 1 BR for the past 3 years.  I haven't looked at VB & HH but would figure they are available off season but not the rest.



Hi Dean, with all the DVC points you own and have owned over the year, why would you do DVC stays on exchange?


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## Dean (Feb 24, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Hi Dean, with all the DVC points you own and have owned over the year, why would you do DVC stays on exchange?


It has been much cheaper to do the exchanges and rent out the points.  We've been able to stay where we were happy doing so.  As I said, we'd planned to sell all but the 25 points but never got around to it.  While I think exchanging in is workable for us going forward, I don't think it has the options it did 10 years ago.  For a novice buying to exchange in would not be a good choice IMO but for someone looking to get to Disney and other places, owning something they could use but might be able to exchange in with could be a workable plan.


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## Mosescan (Feb 24, 2018)

Dean said:


> It has been much cheaper to do the exchanges and rent out the points.  We've been able to stay where we were happy doing so.  As I said, we'd planned to sell all but the 25 points but never got around to it.  While I think exchanging in is workable for us going forward, I don't think it has the options it did 10 years ago.  For a novice buying to exchange in would not be a good choice IMO but for someone looking to get to Disney and other places, owning something they could use but might be able to exchange in with could be a workable plan.


That’s what I’m hoping my HGVC will be good for. I’ll try to exchange into the park DVC resorts. If not then the HGVC resorts aren’t too far away. I may still buy some DVC though! Lol!


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## littlestar (Feb 24, 2018)

Mosescan said:


> That’s what I’m hoping my HGVC will be good for. I’ll try to exchange into the park DVC resorts. If not then the HGVC resorts aren’t too far away. I may still buy some DVC though! Lol!


Owning DVC points would allow you to book a DVC resort other than SSR.  Saratoga shows up the most in RCI.  Other DVC resorts are few and far between in RCI these days. I occasionally see OKW in RCI.  And I personally have not seen AKL in ages in RCI.

We also use our DVC points to tack an extra two or three days onto a 7 night exchange thru RCI.  Or after a 7 night exchange/Getaway with Interval International into Sheraton or Marriott, we book two or three days onsite at DVC. 9 or 10 day vacations work out perfectly for us. For May I have two one bedrooms booked at Marriott Harbour Lake for our daughters and a Sheraton Vistana Villages for my husband and I and then we move over to Disney property for the last few days using DVC points.


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## Dean (Feb 24, 2018)

Mosescan said:


> That’s what I’m hoping my HGVC will be good for. I’ll try to exchange into the park DVC resorts. If not then the HGVC resorts aren’t too far away. I may still buy some DVC though! Lol!


It's a high risk high high reward play but if you're OK with the off property resorts in HGVC (which are overall nicer than DVC resorts), OK with SSR or similar, can do a 1 BR and plan far out; you're chances of success are high.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 24, 2018)

Bailey#1 said:


> We bought DVC over 10 years ago, with the idea of vacationing with family, those plans worked out well.
> 
> Now we are adding on for our retirement and senior years. DVC is the most senior friendly timeshare out there, especially if you are flying. Honestly, you can vacation there well into your 80's, with not worrying about driving, luggage handling, and grocery shopping. We looked into buying a condo,
> but when we figured things out, it makes much more sense to buy into DVC. Sure there is more economical ways but everything has a price, and sometimes the more economical ways are more expensive.
> ...



"My point is that piece of mind has value to it." - I agree!


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## Jayco29D (Feb 24, 2018)

Dean said:


> Unless there is a savings, it makes no sense to buy.  Obviously it depends on what you're comparing to, for DVC it's comparing to on property cash and/or DVC rental.



I think - as long as you can afford it - there are many purchases that make sense for emotional reasons, enjoyment and peace of mind. Like I said before, DVC is a luxury, non-essential purchase. If we are strictly looking at financial reasons, then buying a DVC timeshare does not make sense at all. Going back to Disney again and again would, technically, be unnecessary. I hope I am communicating this properly. While I am a Disney owner, and purchased most of my points resale, I think it was a frivolous purchase but one we can afford and we did try to maximize our value. If we based decisions solely on saving money, we would own very little expect our primary home and 2 cars. We would have one pet instead of four including three expensive pure breeds. In fact, if we were solely concerned with financial savings, we would never buy a new car or go on a vacation far from home. In the olden days, when I was a kid, we never went on vacation more than 200 miles away from home (always by car) and that seemed like a luxury.


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## Dean (Feb 24, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> I think - as long as you can afford it - there are many purchases that make sense for emotional reasons, enjoyment and peace of mind. Like I said before, DVC is a luxury, non-essential purchase. If we are strictly looking at financial reasons, then buying a DVC timeshare does not make sense at all. Going back to Disney again and again would, technically, be unnecessary. I hope I am communicating this properly. While I am a Disney owner, and purchased most of my points resale, I think it was a frivolous purchase but one we can afford and we did try to maximize our value. If we based decisions solely on saving money, we would own very little expect our primary home and 2 cars. We would have one pet instead of four including three expensive pure breeds. In fact, if we were solely concerned with financial savings, we would never buy a new car or go on a vacation far from home. In the olden days, when I was a kid, we never went on vacation more than 200 miles away from home (always by car) and that seemed like a luxury.


Sure but my point is that if it doesn't make financial sense at least compared to on property, it doesn't make sense at all.  Just to be a member of the club doesn't make any sense.


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## Mosescan (Feb 25, 2018)

Well apparently I've lost all sense then. I put an offer in on a contract tonight. We'll see what the reply is and I'll let you know how it goes. They may just tell me to pound sand as I offered much less than they were asking but right around what they have been selling for so we'll see.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 25, 2018)

Mosescan said:


> Well apparently I've lost all sense then. I put an offer in on a contract tonight. We'll see what the reply is and I'll let you know how it goes. They may just tell me to pound sand as I offered much less than they were asking but right around what they have been selling for so we'll see.



If you think you will have fun and you have the money, then go for it! Which DVC resort did you make an offer on?


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## Mosescan (Feb 25, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> If you think you will have fun and you have the money, then go for it! Which DVC resort did you make an offer on?


AK


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## mdurette (Feb 25, 2018)

silentg said:


> We were able to stay at Disney Vero Beach on an RCI exchange about8 years ago. Is it harder to get now?



I exchanged once their in 2009 via II and in April 2015 via RCI (20 TPUS).    Haven't seen it show up again.....


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## littlestar (Feb 25, 2018)

Mosescan said:


> Well apparently I've lost all sense then. I put an offer in on a contract tonight. We'll see what the reply is and I'll let you know how it goes. They may just tell me to pound sand as I offered much less than they were asking but right around what they have been selling for so we'll see.


Good luck.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 25, 2018)

Mosescan said:


> AK



Nice resort. I have seen their price per point all over the map so you should get one at a good price. If the one you made the offer on does not work out, I am sure you will find another contract at the price you are willing to pay.


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## Mosescan (Feb 25, 2018)

Ended up in a multiple offer situation so I had to amend my offer. I’ll find out after 5 tonight if I got it. It’s a big contract so it’s not cheap but it will pay for itself over time so I’m ok with it.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 25, 2018)

Multiple offers on a timeshare are rare. How big is your contract?


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## silentg (Feb 25, 2018)

Did you get it?


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## frank808 (Feb 26, 2018)

Mosescan said:


> That’s what I’m hoping my HGVC will be good for. I’ll try to exchange into the park DVC resorts. If not then the HGVC resorts aren’t too far away. I may still buy some DVC though! Lol!


Pretty much just 1br SSR nowadays. There was a time a few years ago that exchanging was great.  But now there are less opportunities and locations.  Also RCI has increased the exchange fees plus now DVC collects $190 a week when exchanging in.

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk


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## Jayco29D (Feb 26, 2018)

I suspect DVC does not want folks to exchange because RCI does not have good options for trading into. That may be one way they keep their resale prices high. DVC is not a trader.


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## Dean (Feb 26, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> I suspect DVC does not want folks to exchange because RCI does not have good options for trading into. That may be one way they keep their resale prices high. DVC is not a trader.


Overall they have been encouraging trading somewhat. I suspect their agreement with RCI requires a certain volume of exchanges


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## Mosescan (Feb 26, 2018)

silentg said:


> Did you get it?


Still waiting to hear back from the seller.


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## mj2vacation (Feb 27, 2018)

Dean said:


> It's a high risk high high reward play but if you're OK with the off property resorts in HGVC (which are overall nicer than DVC resorts), OK with SSR or similar, can do a 1 BR and plan far out; you're chances of success are high.



Which HGV resorts do you feel are nicer?


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## mj2vacation (Feb 27, 2018)

Dean said:


> Overall they have been encouraging trading somewhat. I suspect their agreement with RCI requires a certain volume of exchanges


Trading has always been encouraged, and is good for Disney as they get the revenue from tickets, meals, etc.

I suspect that as some members get more savvy about alternative uses of their membership, such as renting points, that may affect RCI exchanges more than other options. DVC would prefer not have a ton of members trading for cruises (not Disney overall, just DVC).

In the past, we would have considered using DVC for an exchange into some of the higher end II resorts, I see RCI as a downgrade.

Now we just rent any extra points (not that we have that problem often.


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## Southerngirl528 (Feb 27, 2018)

Dean said:


> Overall they have been encouraging trading somewhat. I suspect their agreement with RCI requires a certain volume of exchanges



Agree. I have not and will not be exchanging my DVC points for an RCI exchange. If it was still II, I would exchange once in a blue moon for a premium resort like Marriott or Westin.



Jayco29D said:


> I suspect DVC does not want folks to exchange because RCI does not have good options for trading into. That may be one way they keep their resale prices high. DVC is not a trader.



Agree entirely that RCI's options are lackluster for the most part. And totally agree that DVC is not a trader!


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## Jayco29D (Feb 27, 2018)

The comments above are what make me think that Disney does not want people trading. I have noticed that some upscale brands move to RCI from II in order to control trading more. Then they add The Registry to make it seem like they are giving more to their members. And they make it very hard to trade into their resort for other RCI members who do not own their brand. There are two upscale brands that I know of (Disney and an upscale Mexican brand) that have used this strategy and moved from II to RCI/The Registry. My suspicion (as an ex-corporate brand marketing manager) is that trading devalues the brand and makes it harder for the developers to control pricing and sales.


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## Mosescan (Feb 27, 2018)

I would think Disney would want people who don't own Disney to trade into their resorts as it supplies fresh meat to theirs sales department. Although I suppose maybe they figure if people can't trade in then they'll buy in! That's what I did although in the resale market.


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## Dean (Feb 28, 2018)

mj2vacation said:


> Trading has always been encouraged, and is good for Disney as they get the revenue from tickets, meals, etc.
> 
> I suspect that as some members get more savvy about alternative uses of their membership, such as renting points, that may affect RCI exchanges more than other options. DVC would prefer not have a ton of members trading for cruises (not Disney overall, just DVC).
> 
> ...





Southerngirl528 said:


> Agree. I have not and will not be exchanging my DVC points for an RCI exchange. If it was still II, I would exchange once in a blue moon for a premium resort like Marriott or Westin.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree entirely that RCI's options are lackluster for the most part. And totally agree that DVC is not a trader!


DVC has done enough advertising/encouragement for exchanges that they obviously have to have an underlying reason to do so.  Even at member events they have consistently pushed exchanges.  They really don't use them as sales fodder so that can't be it.  They don't interact with them at all to make the possibility of a sale feasible.  There isn't going to be much difference in revenue because someone will be in a given room so the biggest difference is simply what an exchanger would spend over what a member would spend.  I'm guessing an exchanger would spend less than a member who's less than a cash guest or renter simply because timeshare owners tend to be more cost conscious and accustomed to cooking in more. The only way they'd get a sale from an RCI exchanger would be if they happened to inquire themselves in some way since there is zero attempt to contact them for sales.  Certainly members that are very knowledgeable of the real costs and other options are not likely to use exchanges in most situation. 

For using points for cash exchanges, I think DVC is neutral.  They do have to turn those points into cash which is inefficient but given it's a zero sum system, if they have trouble doing so and get less dollars per point, they just raise the points more to cover it. They do use it on the sales side.

As for II vs RCI, IMO the difference is smoke and mirrors.  Certainly as a % of listings in the book II has a higher % of better resorts but RCI has many more resorts than II. But if you look at the total number of top resorts and you look at what's really available, I think they're about equal or slightly better for RCI, esp now with DVC being there.  You have to take Marriott (and possibly Starwood) off the table with II due to the internal preferences and holds and IMO it was only Marriott, Westin and DVC that made the statement true about II having better quality. 



Jayco29D said:


> The comments above are what make me think that Disney does not want people trading. I have noticed that some upscale brands move to RCI from II in order to control trading more. Then they add The Registry to make it seem like they are giving more to their members. And they make it very hard to trade into their resort for other RCI members who do not own their brand. There are two upscale brands that I know of (Disney and an upscale Mexican brand) that have used this strategy and moved from II to RCI/The Registry. My suspicion (as an ex-corporate brand marketing manager) is that trading devalues the brand and makes it harder for the developers to control pricing and sales.


I think you've misinterpreted the reasons they've moved, esp for DVC.  Since they don't farm the exchanges for sales, the 1 in 4 (etc) really doesn't make any difference.  I think RCI is a better fit for DVC and is cheaper for DVC.  Also note that DVC had the regional block with II as well.  Historically DVC has moved from RCI to II back to RCI over the years and looked a dual affiliation before the last move instead from what I understand.  I know RCI tends to give more financial incentives to resorts, for example, at one time Bluegreen was paying for the members RCI membership at about 60¢ on the dollar but now BG doesn't pay anything since RCI credits them for exchanges.  IIRC, the Mx resort system you think of makes it difficult even for owners to exchange back in and they do aggressively go for sales from those that exchange in so I think their reasons are different. 



Mosescan said:


> I would think Disney would want people who don't own Disney to trade into their resorts as it supplies fresh meat to theirs sales department. Although I suppose maybe they figure if people can't trade in then they'll buy in! That's what I did although in the resale market.


See above, they don't try to sell to the exchangers.  Most true timeshare people aren't going to pay the Disney prices even resale but a few will.  Owning DVC is a different mindset than the traditional Timeshare group.  While there is some crossover, there really isn't much.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 28, 2018)

Mosescan said:


> Although I suppose maybe they figure if people can't trade in then they'll buy in! That's what I did although in the resale market.



This is what I think their strategy is. The other upscale brand I am thinking of did this to reduce trading since it is often cheaper to exchange than buy into their timeshare company. Many people won't buy a membership if they can trade in for about the same amount (or less sometimes) than owning.

I don't think DVC needs exchangers as "fresh meat" because they have 20 million visitors a year to WDW alone. That's a lot of fresh meat already. Plus I am not sure exchangers are always the best target market for DVC since they (we) are more educated than the general public about the TS industry and how to get good deals (like the resale market). I think DVC's best target market are Disney fanatics who will buy direct from DVC.

My DVC salesman said the vast majority of people buy direct from DVC, even though the price per point is higher. I bought about a third of my points direct because on some resorts, esp for small contracts, the total price delta was not that big, they gave me fully loaded contracts including the previous year's points, and the points are useable on the same day you place the order (ease and convenience means a lot to me). I know I am different than many Tuggers in being more value and convenience oriented and less price sensitive. So if the price delta is not significantly different on a contract, I tend to buy direct. Otherwise, I buy resale.


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## Dean (Feb 28, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> My DVC salesman said the vast majority of people buy direct from DVC, even though the price per point is higher. I bought about a third of my points direct because on some resorts, esp for small contracts, the total price delta was not that big, they gave me fully loaded contracts including the previous year's points, and the points are useable on the same day you place the order (ease and convenience means a lot to me). I know I am different than many Tuggers in being more value and convenience oriented and less price sensitive. So if the price delta is not significantly different on a contract, I tend to buy direct. Otherwise, I buy resale.


While it's true most new buyers go retail, the majority of those are not sufficiently educated to know and feel comfortable with the other alternatives.  IMO it's only reasonable to go retail for certain options where they are not available on the open market at a true savings whether it be by # of points or price difference.  And now with the increase in requirements for perks, that takes away the reasonableness of the combo purchase strategy for almost everyone.


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## Jayco29D (Feb 28, 2018)

Dean said:


> IIRC, the Mx resort system you think of makes it difficult even for owners to exchange back in and they do aggressively go for sales from those that exchange in so I think their reasons are different.



Thanks Dean. All good points. I agree that the DVC customer is different than many of the folks in the traditional TS market. I am sort of a hybrid customer in buying both direct and resale depending on the price delta and other factors.

Who is IIRC?


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## Jayco29D (Feb 28, 2018)

Dean said:


> While it's true most new buyers go retail, the majority of those are not sufficiently educated to know and feel comfortable with the other alternatives.  IMO it's only reasonable to go retail for certain options where they are not available on the open market at a true savings whether it be by # of points or price difference.  And now with the increase in requirements for perks, that takes away the reasonableness of the combo purchase strategy for almost everyone.



Totally agree with you on this.


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## Mosescan (Feb 28, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Thanks Dean. All good points. I agree that the DVC customer is different than many of the folks in the traditional TS market. I am sort of a hybrid customer in buying both direct and resale depending on the price delta and other factors.
> 
> Who is IIRC?


IIRC = if I recall correctly


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## Jayco29D (Feb 28, 2018)

Mosescan said:


> IIRC = if I recall correctly



Ha, ha. LOL I thought IIRC was a new Mexican TS company!


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## Southerngirl528 (Mar 1, 2018)

Dean said:


> You have to take Marriott (and possibly Starwood) off the table with II due to the internal preferences and holds and IMO it was only Marriott, Westin and DVC that made the statement true about II having better quality.



And those 3 mentioned companies are the reason I much prefer II. I already own DVC, and won't be trading for a lesser TS with that ownership. And owning at MMOC/Napili, I have zero plans to trade that either. I bought it to stay there and there only.


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## Dean (Mar 1, 2018)

Southerngirl528 said:


> And those 3 mentioned companies are the reason I much prefer II. I already own DVC, and won't be trading for a lesser TS with that ownership. And owning at MMOC/Napili, I have zero plans to trade that either. I bought it to stay there and there only.


The point was that if one owns elsewhere, getting those properties during overall desirable time is not very likely essentially making them a non factor.  Of course DVC isn't in II any more.  Certainly if one is doing "internal" trades to Marriott or Starwood, that's different and requires II to be functional.


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## Commish_DVC (Mar 4, 2018)

Regarding DVC & Vero Beach,   DVC owners have consistently stated that VB is the worst DVC option, however, I would argue VB is actually a great option for certain family types/vacation patterns.

When I was purchasing resale in 2013 the mantra was "Friends do not let Friends buy Vero Beach as a point Cow"   I purchased VB anyway and have used the 500pt VB Contract to have awesome vacations at WDW,  Beach Club, Bay Lake, Poly Bungalows etc.

Reasons to purchase at Vero Beach:

You have a large family and require 2BR Villas requiring a lot of Points!- Large VB Contracts are currently in the $65 range, assuming $60 buy in that would be $30,000 for a $500 point contract with 24 years remaining

VB Maintenance fees are the highest - paying a $1.50-$2.50 premium over other DVC resorts, However,  the Market Price for DVC points (for sake of argument) is $14-$17,   a 2BR Stay at Bay Lake Tower is 386 points - compared against the MF this would be $3,300 for a week ~$470 a night (still way below market for a Disney Deluxe Villa)


Buy Vero Beach If:

You want to travel to WDW NOW! -  If children/family are the right age where you will be going to WDW frequently or if you have a large family and require more than one 2BR -  (use the points for 5-10 years then sell at current market)

You are willing to plan vacations 7 months out - Expensive DVC resorts(as well as SSR, OKW, AK are generally available at 7 months), with a large cheap VB contract, have really great options.

You do not plan to travel Christmas/Easter/Presidents day weeks (unless you are willing to stay at SSR).

You can afford to buy a larger contract (you are net getting very far with DVC with a 200 point contract/large family)

You would like to stay at Vero Beach (which is a lovely resort, just not WDW)

You can appreciate (stomach) the $8.50 MF's  - keeping in mind that the Market for points is $14-$17

The decision to buy at Vero Beach can only be made by comparing the current VB price against other 2042 expiring resorts (BC,BWV,OKW,WL,HH etc)  and SSR (2054) if there is a big enough gap between VB low/sub $60's vs other resorts  ($80-100) (especially if the contracted is loaded with points where seller pays management fees)  VB is a solid move


I love my Vero Beach Point Cow!


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## Dean (Mar 4, 2018)

Commish_DVC said:


> Regarding DVC & Vero Beach,   DVC owners have consistently stated that VB is the worst DVC option, however, I would argue VB is actually a great option for certain family types/vacation patterns.
> 
> When I was purchasing resale in 2013 the mantra was "Friends do not let Friends buy Vero Beach as a point Cow"   I purchased VB anyway and have used the 500pt VB Contract to have awesome vacations at WDW,  Beach Club, Bay Lake, Poly Bungalows etc.
> 
> ...


IMO it makes sense ONLY if you want to stay at VB a fair portion of the time.  The long term cost in dues will make it more expensive than SSR AND you give up the 11 month reservation window.  But I'd agree that there is a cost difference where it would make sense but one it has never reached.


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## Commish_DVC (Mar 4, 2018)

Your analysis is flat out wrong - "one it has never reached" - You are in no position to make such a statement -  I believe my $39 VB purchase would clearly qualify and VB can be purchased in the 50's

Additionally, buying at VB has NOTHING To do with staying at VB.  it is all about the 7 month window where the cheap VB points are worth exactly the same as any other DVC location (with higher MF's)  -  It is about maximizing the value of the lower acquisition cost by utilizing the VB points to reserve the higher end DVC resorts (which would not include SSR*) 

And enjoying the heck out of those sweet WDW resorts, the most important part!

* I believe one flaw when using SSR as a comparison to other resorts, is that there isn't a "SSR - Home Resort Premium", Saratoga rooms are the last resorts to fill up and the "Preferred" room category is poor point value compared to BC, BW, WL.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 4, 2018)

Not to argue with anyone but I will just add in my two cents. If you are buying an offsite DVC home resort, Aulani could be a great option. It has a long contract left, it rents out at a high rate (if you rent it yourself), it is super desirable to stay at and hard to get into without the 11 month reservation window, the cost per point is low if you find a good contract (in the $80s) and MFs are about $1 per point lower than Vero Beach. We bought a 200 pt contract recently for $82.50 pp. We are in California so getting there is easy for us. Just pointing out another "affordable" option for folks for buying into DVC and concerned about the initial cost. If you live on the West coast of USA, Aulani is a great option since you probably would not go to WDW in Orlando yearly. But it does make planning for WDW a lot harder without the 11 month booking window at a WDW resort.


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## Commish_DVC (Mar 4, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Not to argue with anyone but I will just add in my two cents. If you are buying an offsite DVC home resort, Aulani could be a great option. It has a long contract left, it rents out at a high rate (if you rent it yourself), it is super desirable to stay at and hard to get into without the 11 month reservation window, the cost per point is low if you find a good contract (in the $80s) and MFs are about $1 per point lower than Vero Beach. We bought a 200 pt contract recently for $82.50 pp. We are in California so getting there is easy for us. Just pointing out another "affordable" option for folks for buying into DVC and concerned about the initial cost. If you live on the West coast of USA, Aulani is a great option since you probably would not go to WDW in Orlando yearly. But it does make planning for WDW a lot harder without the 11 month booking window at a WDW resort.



Thanks for the reply - I just posted on MO about Aulani and you answered my question here! - I think Aulani is where the LT value is in the DVC system, but VB can be a decent value if you can get a big contract cheap - VB sets the "floor" for DVC resales and if you can bid it down at least you are buying in "lowest" (large contracts generally $3-5 lower)


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## Jayco29D (Mar 4, 2018)

Commish_DVC said:


> Thanks for the reply - I just posted on MO about Aulani and you answered my question here! - I think Aulani is where the LT value is in the DVC system, but VB can be a decent value if you can get a big contract cheap - VB sets the "floor" for DVC resales and if you can bid it down at least you are buying in "lowest" (large contracts generally $3-5 lower)



What is MO?

I agree that the long term value in the DVC system is probably in Aulani. It is taking a long time to sell out and DVC is still actively selling it. I suspect once Aulani is sold out, the price per point will go way up. It is certainly one of the most expensive resorts to rent on Expedia - $1500-$2500 per night for 1-2 bedrooms. I keep scratching my head as to why the price per point is so low, given how hard it is to book at 7 months and it is often sold out all summer. Atlantis is being built next to Aulani and Atlantis will be the most expensive resort ever built in the world. I would think that would make the Ko Olina area more desirable over the long term. I read an article recently that said Ko Olina is becoming the Palm Beach of Hawaii i.e. going more upscale and more desirable. Many people like Maui and Kauai better than Oahu because they are less developed. However, the Ko Olina area is gorgeous and some folks like that Oahu has the most to do - a combination of city life in Honolulu with the traditional Hawaii lifestyle and lush greenery in other areas around the island of Oahu.

I wish DVC would open a Caribbean DVC resort. I hope that is in their long term plans. I like the offsite DVC locations. Maybe they will one day since Disney cruising has proven to be so successful.


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## Commish_DVC (Mar 4, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> What is MO?



Mouse Owners is one of many DVC forums - TUG helps me for the non-DVC timeshares


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## Dean (Mar 4, 2018)

Commish_DVC said:


> Your analysis is flat out wrong - "one it has never reached" - You are in no position to make such a statement -  I believe my $39 VB purchase would clearly qualify and VB can be purchased in the 50's
> 
> Additionally, buying at VB has NOTHING To do with staying at VB.  it is all about the 7 month window where the cheap VB points are worth exactly the same as any other DVC location (with higher MF's)  -  It is about maximizing the value of the lower acquisition cost by utilizing the points to reserve the higher end DVC resorts (which req. more points naturally).


It sounds like you're comparing to when you bought in the past, to do so you'd have to compare to what say SSR would have been at the same time.  I'm not sure when you bought but there was a time when you could get SSR for under $50 a point following 2008. For today, you'd have to compare to current prices.  If you compare to listing prices for both at $70 for VB & SSR at $100 and use 3.5% at the end of 2041 your costs are roughly $38276.55 for VB and $31486.59 for SSR.  If you invest the $3K difference you can potentially make up the difference.  You'd have 12 years left on SSR and you'd have the 11 month advantage for WDW.  If you do the same, BLT & AKV are also cheaper than VB.  Again, not a bad choice if you want to use it at VB part of the time but a poor choice for WDW alone as the goal unless you can find a subsidized contract at around the same buy in price.


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## Commish_DVC (Mar 4, 2018)

Dean said:


> It sounds like you're comparing to when you bought in the past, to do so you'd have to compare to what say SSR would have been at the same time.  I'm not sure when you bought but there was a time when you could get SSR for under $50 a point following 2008. For today, you'd have to compare to current prices.  If you compare to listing prices for both at $70 for VB & SSR at $100 and use 3.5% at the end of 2041 your costs are roughly $38276.55 for VB and $31486.59 for SSR.  If you invest the $3K difference you can potentially make up the difference.  You'd have 12 years left on SSR and you'd have the 11 month advantage for WDW.  If you do the same, BLT & AKV are also cheaper than VB.  Again, not a bad choice if you want to use it at VB part of the time but a poor choice for WDW alone as the goal unless you can find a subsidized contract at around the same buy in price.



I just closed on 500 BRV in Feb 2018 at $79, so no chance VB $70! - should be high 50's (& obviously I valued $79 WL>$100 SSR when I purchased in Jan)

As an owner of an Vero Beach point cow, I wanted the community to know that a VB point cow is nice to have!


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## Dean (Mar 4, 2018)

Commish_DVC said:


> I just closed on 500 BRV in Feb 2018 at $79, so no chance VB $70! - should be high 50's (& obviously I valued $79 WL>$100 SSR when I purchased in Jan)
> 
> As an owner of an Vero Beach point cow, I wanted the community to know that a VB point cow is nice to have!


The larger contract size certainly affected the price.  I used listing prices but the spread for passed ROFR is similar for all properties I mentioned.  And at the end of 2042 the others I mentioned still have potential value.  VB is a nice option if you use it but a poor choice as a points cow.  Not to mention it's at risk for a special assessment at any time, like HH, but your long term costs will be more than SSR.


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## Commish_DVC (Mar 5, 2018)

Well that's a factor of acquisition cost - not a factor of your opinion - Back to my OP - if you want to use points NOW - need to acquire them some how assuming a $24,000 budget buying 400@$60 can be a better option than 240 points at $100 - your responses come off as "all knowing" vs an opinion  "poor choice as a point cow"  "a level that has never been reached", "Vero Beach is a nice option if you use it", once again with the faulty premise that you need to stay where you own, simply not true.   Clearly if you blow out costs over 24 years the higher MF's are a negative, however if the goal is to use now - well twenty years in the future is less relevant.  There are so many different types of DVC owner's some small, some big, some with short term focus, others long term. - allow other points of view, your responses come off as if you are a self proclaimed "expert" on all DVC matters.


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## Dean (Mar 5, 2018)

Commish_DVC said:


> Well that's a factor of acquisition cost - not a factor of your opinion - Back to my OP - if you want to use points NOW - need to acquire them some how assuming a $24,000 budget buying 400@$60 can be a better option than 240 points at $100 - your responses come off as "all knowing" vs an opinion  "poor choice as a point cow"  "a level that has never been reached", "Vero Beach is a nice option if you use it", once again with the faulty premise that you need to stay where you own, simply not true.   Clearly if you blow out costs over 24 years the higher MF's are a negative, however if the goal is to use now - well twenty years in the future is less relevant.  There are so many different types of DVC owner's some small, some big, some with short term focus, others long term. - allow other points of view, your responses come off as if you are a self proclaimed "expert" on all DVC matters.


There's roughly a $30 spread between VB and SSR whether you take listing or ROFR prices, that's factual.  The dues are what they are as a fact and I think we can assume inflation as a fact but can quibble about what to use.  Most use 3-4% which is why I used 3.5%.  Using todays real numbers and those reasonable assumptions VB will cost more over the almost 24 years remaining.  IF you invest the difference, you might or might not be able to make up the loss depending on return.  And you'd have something worth less and something worth zero Jan, 2042 and you would not have an 11 month window at WDW plus you might not have access to the lower standard view units at SSR.  Can you use points at 7 months out most of the time, sure but you have a significant advantage having a reservation in place 11 months out.  Clearly you disagree but my views are based on running these calculations over 18-20 years at various times.  When VB was $38 a point, SSR could be had for $48.  Certainly if you're willing to take larger contracts of say 400 or greater, you can get a discount but that applies to any resort, esp the ones in question.  To buy off property at HH, VB or HI one has to either have a planned use or a significant savings looking at the combination of up front price and dues.  In your stated situation it's break even at best with the negatives I laid out thus no reason to do so.


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## littlestar (Mar 6, 2018)

I do not think I have ever seen a subsidized dues Vero contract. With grand kids and school schedules in our future, Vero was out of the question for us because of wanting an 11 month window for booking WDW. Special assessments scared me off, too, with Hilton Head and Vero. Also was afraid of Disney cutting them loose.


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## Dean (Mar 6, 2018)

littlestar said:


> I do not think I have ever seen a subsidized dues Vero contract. With grand kids and school schedules in our future, Vero was out of the question for us because of wanting an 11 month window for booking WDW. Special assessments scared me off, too, with Hilton Head and Vero. Also was afraid of Disney cutting them loose.


I've seen a number over the years but I haven't followed specific contracts in some time.  Given the small size of the resort and relative number of points, they may be difficult to find.  I looked for one at one time to use at VB but couldn't find one cheap enough I was comfortable proceeding. I also wonder if DVD would be more active in ROFR for those, they should be.  But if one can find one and VB makes sense anyway, it's likely a good choice though it's just a math evaluation like VB in general for WDW.  Same for Aulani.  DVC has never had a SA but VB came VERY close at one time with formal discussions internally about one.  IMO the SA issue is the least of the worries but it is a consideration.  The other issue not discussed yet here is that both VB & HH have a risk of just being wiped out.  I think that's a far more likely scenario than a SA but both unlikely.  What happens if the resort is wiped out.  Per the POS if the resort is planned to be rebuilt those member could use the points at other resorts subject to availability which is actually unusual in the timeshare world, normally you wouldn't be able to use them if your home resort was nonfunctional.  If it was simply closed down, they would pay any expenses then divide any remaining proceeds, including insurance, among the owners pro rata.  It's difficult to know what the proceeds would be but my best guess is about 50% of the current resale sales price on a per point basis give or take but less wouldn't surprise me.  They then would not be members unless they owned elsewhere.


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## Jayco29D (Mar 6, 2018)

Dean said:


> I've seen a number over the years but I haven't followed specific contracts in some time.  Given the small size of the resort and relative number of points, they may be difficult to find.  I looked for one at one time to use at VB but couldn't find one cheap enough I was comfortable proceeding. I also wonder if DVD would be more active in ROFR for those, they should be.  But if one can find one and VB makes sense anyway, it's likely a good choice though it's just a math evaluation like VB in general for WDW.  Same for Aulani.  DVC has never had a SA but VB came VERY close at one time with formal discussions internally about one.  IMO the SA issue is the least of the worries but it is a consideration.  The other issue not discussed yet here is that both VB & HH have a risk of just being wiped out.  I think that's a far more likely scenario than a SA but both unlikely.  What happens if the resort is wiped out.  Per the POS if the resort is planned to be rebuilt those member could use the points at other resorts subject to availability which is actually unusual in the timeshare world, normally you wouldn't be able to use them if your home resort was nonfunctional.  If it was simply closed down, they would pay any expenses then divide any remaining proceeds, including insurance, among the owners pro rata.  It's difficult to know what the proceeds would be but my best guess is about 50% of the current resale sales price on a per point basis give or take but less wouldn't surprise me.  They then would not be members unless they owned elsewhere.



Good points Dean. I read on the Vistana forum that the Westin St John folks were all given some great incentives while they wait for it to be re-built. I can't recall the details but the postings I read made it sound like many owners were happy with how they were treated. I would assume Disney would do something similar or better if HH or VB were wiped out. I hope to one day trade my StarOptions to stay at WSJ so that is why I have been keeping up with those resorts. I assume that is a long term goal for us since owners with a WSJ home resort will be trying to get in as soon as they can and it will take a few years to rebuild it. I am amazingly impressed with how the Caribbean resorts are rebuilding so quickly in general.


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## Dean (Mar 7, 2018)

Jayco29D said:


> Good points Dean. I read on the Vistana forum that the Westin St John folks were all given some great incentives while they wait for it to be re-built. I can't recall the details but the postings I read made it sound like many owners were happy with how they were treated. I would assume Disney would do something similar or better if HH or VB were wiped out. I hope to one day trade my StarOptions to stay at WSJ so that is why I have been keeping up with those resorts. I assume that is a long term goal for us since owners with a WSJ home resort will be trying to get in as soon as they can and it will take a few years to rebuild it. I am amazingly impressed with how the Caribbean resorts are rebuilding so quickly in general.


The technical requirements are what I stated and that's all one should expect.  The variables are going to be what happens to the points that are shorter notice, passed banking windows banked, borrowed or would be in holding plus lost reservations.  Based on what I've seen over the years Disney in general and DVC specifically does great with individual issues but not as well with large picture issues.  They've had a few opportunities over the years to handle big picture issues.  They did great with hurricane interruptions but they did poorly with the valet parking change and with several refurbishment projects with in place reservations.  And I believe they ponied up money to avoid a SA when VB was damaged before.

Specific to the valet issue.  Valet parking was free to DVC members for years even after the valet was outsourced.  But the contract came up and the company was no longer willing to do it just for tips so DVC had to decide whether to pay full price for those that wanted it or to go pay to play.  Clearly with those choices, pay to play for those that wanted to use it was the correct choice but they implemented it poorly.  They didn't notice it to the point where some checked in with free parking and left with charges with no warning.  It was like cloak and dagger in the middle of the night.

They have a history of planning major refurbishments and scheduling them after reservations are already set.  Can you imagine you reserve minute one at 11 months out or even walk a reservation that's difficult to get then it's pulled out from under you.  There were 2 major AKV refurbishments and one BWV that impacted DVC members significantly that come to mind.  The BWV took members away from BW view rooms and away from the resort many to SSR but overall they seemed to do better than the AKV ones.  The 2 AKV ones did the same and one took them away from once in a lifetime concierge club stays almost exclusively to SSR.  In addition, they handled it individually depending on who you talked to and where they were in the process.  Some got the SSR for free, free dining plan and return of all points.  Some got nothing but just a return of the points difference and no options except SSR with lots of in between.  With AKV they left it up to the resort both times to notify and plan it which was a big mistake IMO and it was clearly not done well.  

Let's say VB or HH were wiped out but they planned to rebuild, here's my assumptions of what they would and would not do.  They would let you use your points at the 7 month window at other resorts as required and bank per rules.  They would likely take points in holding status and give them back without the restriction.  They would likely allow banking after the deadline.  They would likely return borrowed points to the original UY.  They would not allow extension or further banking of banked points (they didn't with the hurricanes).  They would not allow booking outside the 7 month window elsewhere.  They could not create inventory availability so if no availability means you lose the points, so be it.  They would not allow non qualified points to be used for cash type items like the DC or DCL.  They might allow a priority wait list in specific case by case situations but not en mass.  There might or might not be some dues credits in the meantime but if there were it would be due to lower costs of items that dues cover while it's down.  

Marriott has taken on resorts over the years some of which are no longer with Marriott, in some cases Marriott simply dumped them and in others they just agreed to disagree.  Obviously each issue I'll reference has it's own nuances but for sake of this discussion, I'll generalize.  I can think of at least 8 resorts off hand that are no longer in the Marriott system.  For some of these, Marriott sold weeks as Marriott's through their resale side.  Many who bought did so in large part for the exchange priority through II back into Marriott's.  Of course that option went away once a given resort was no longer a Marriott.  With the first 2 that left early on, I don't think Marriott sold any of those but for the rest I think they did at all or most.  With the first one that left where they had sold weeks, I am told they gave those owners that had bought from them the opportunity to trade for another week still in the system but in inventory though I don't know details.  Later they didn't give that option and denied it when asked.  

It's just like the Marriott HH Hurricane thing this past year, they had to chose who got the rooms and who didn't.  I know many have issues with how they did this but that they had to chose is factual.  The reality is that the owner or exchanger is taking risk for these issues per the contract and legal documents and what's written is all the company is required to do and frankly, all that should be expected is within the framework of what the documents say.


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## littlestar (Mar 7, 2018)

Are Vero and Aulani the only DVC resorts that have some contracts with subsidized dues? And do the subsidized dues always stay with the contracts when they are sold to someone else?


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## Bailey#1 (Mar 7, 2018)

littlestar said:


> Are Vero and Aulani the only DVC resorts that have some contracts with subsidized dues? And do the subsidized dues always stay with the contracts when they are sold to someone else?


Yes, Vero and Aulani are the only DVC that have some contracts with subsidized dues. Yes, they can be sold to someone else.


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## Dean (Mar 7, 2018)

littlestar said:


> Are Vero and Aulani the only DVC resorts that have some contracts with subsidized dues? And do the subsidized dues always stay with the contracts when they are sold to someone else?


As noted, they are the only 2 with ongoing long term subsidies.  Others have had temporary subsidies during the active sales process.  The reason for VB is that the resort was planned to be much larger and was scaled back thus increasing the dues over what they would have been.  Legally they didn't have to do this, the disclaimer that phases might not be added would have protected them.  For Aulani they simply miscalculated/misrepresented them and they likely did have legal risk had they not done so or some other measure that accomplished a similar end.  I'm also reminded of the allocation that  happened with BLT while in sales but before it opened.  As I understand it they gave members the option of a refund or adding on even less than the usual 25 pts which is why you'll see an occasional contract of less than 25 pts there.


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