# Disney is locking resale buyers OUT of some programs



## vacationhopeful (Jan 18, 2011)

Disney has just announced a new benefit for buying direct verses resale. Starting with any resale closed after March 20, 2011, those points will NOT have access to all the programs which a direct buyer (or prior resale buyer) will have. Mixed ownerships will have the points segregated.


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## MichaelColey (Jan 18, 2011)

Found more details:

http://dvcnews.com/index.php/news-p...dvc-to-create-direct-purchase-benefit-program



> Disney Vacation Club is set to unveil a Direct Purchase Benefit program in which some destinations will be withheld from those purchasing points on the secondary market.
> 
> Under the new program terms, only points purchased directly through Disney Vacation Club sales agents will be eligible for use toward the Disney Collection, Adventurer Collection and Concierge Collection. . .
> 
> In order for resale contract purchases to be eligible for all Member Getaways, the purchase closing must occur by March 20, 2011. As such, all prior resale purchases will also remain eligible for use toward the full slate of Disney Vacation Club destinations.


So it looks like this won't affect DVC stays or other benefits (like annual pass discounts), only using DVC points for special programs.  These are non-DVC resorts, Adventures by Disney and non-RCI resorts.  If you're just using your DVC points for stays in the 11 DVC timeshares, there's no change.

Also, it's encouraging that they're giving people 2 month's notice and older resale contracts are grandfathered in.

We'll have to see if this negatively affects resale prices.  I'm still considering a small (25 to 50 point) contract if I can get the right price, so I'm hoping that it will.


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## ocdb8r (Jan 18, 2011)

Well, not sure what sort of impact this will have on resale prices.  Those programs provided very low value per point compared to actual use.  Unless they somehow make those programs more attractive, I'm not sure this will make a big difference.

That said, how long does a typical resale closing take given Disney is a RTU?


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## vacationhopeful (Jan 18, 2011)

ocdb8r said:


> ...how long does a typical resale closing take given Disney is a RTU?



Great question? And what is a good price for a small DVC contract right now?


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## bnoble (Jan 18, 2011)

ocdb8r is correct.  Anyone with half a brain (and they are looking at resale contracts, so by definition they do...) will realize that these "internal exchange" uses to other Disney properties are almost always horrible values of points.

My reading:  Disney is doing resale purchasers a favor by eliminating these poor use options.  You'd be better renting off excess points, even at distress prices.


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## MichaelColey (Jan 18, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> And what is a good price for a small DVC contract right now?


Depending on the location, $40-$60 per point.


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## durrod (Jan 18, 2011)

Does this restriction includes the Disney cruises? The cruise IMO provides a good value if you go on value season. It is a direct exchange with out added fees like in a regular exchange company ( other than 95 exchange fee). The other places that are restricted do not provide a good value anyway and require a TON of points.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jan 18, 2011)

The cruises are excluded.  

I am sure we will take a Disney cruise one day, so that does make a difference to me, but I guess we will just pay and not use our points, if we buy them at all.  

The DVC annual pass discount makes the DVC points worthy of purchase, but that can also go away.

This may hurt resale value.


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## durrod (Jan 18, 2011)

The only loss I see then is the loss of using the points for a cruise, it was a good option to have. But at least you have enough time to buy a resale now before the deadline, at much cheaper prices than buying direct.


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## ocdb8r (Jan 18, 2011)

durrod said:


> Does this restriction includes the Disney cruises? The cruise IMO provides a good value if you go on value season. It is a direct exchange with out added fees like in a regular exchange company ( other than 95 exchange fee). The other places that are restricted do not provide a good value anyway and require a TON of points.



While they value was "decent" during value season, you still ended up ahead if you rented out your points and then purchased the cruise.

Again, overall I don't think this will be too big of a deal UNLESS they sweeten the value of these options...maybe there's an upside in it for those who buy now and hold.


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## heathpack (Jan 18, 2011)

Slippery slope.  I don't really care about this change personally, but I bet DVD is testing the water with this change.  Savvy resale buyers won't squawk b/c a less-valuable use of points is being lost.  Non-savvy buyers won't notice anything.  Salespeople will overstate the benefit of buying resale.  Then in 3 years, DVD will implement another set of changes with the goal of undercutting resales and the wisdom then will be "whats the difference this isn't much of a change". Typical timeshare BS.

H


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## tomandrobin (Jan 18, 2011)

vacationhopeful said:


> Great question? And what is a good price for a small DVC contract right now?



Depends on the resort and size of contract. Small 25-50 point contracts still sell better then larger contracts.


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## tomandrobin (Jan 18, 2011)

ocdb8r said:


> Well, not sure what sort of impact this will have on resale prices.  Those programs provided very low value per point compared to actual use.  Unless they somehow make those programs more attractive, I'm not sure this will make a big difference.
> 
> That said, how long does a typical resale closing take given Disney is a RTU?



Once you negotiate a deal and submit to Disney, they have 30 days to review (3 weeks is the normal tunraround time), if you pass....then it takes another 3 weeks. 

I submitted a contract to Disney first week of December and the points were in my DVC account yesterday.


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## Dean (Jan 18, 2011)

ocdb8r said:


> While they value was "decent" during value season, you still ended up ahead if you rented out your points and then purchased the cruise.
> 
> Again, overall I don't think this will be too big of a deal UNLESS they sweeten the value of these options...maybe there's an upside in it for those who buy now and hold.


IMO they are actually doing future resale buyers a favor.  IMO, anything under $8 per point compared to DISCOUNTED rates is not a decent deal.  Generally cruises are in the $6-6.75 pp return compared to early booking discounts.  There are also many other negatives in using points to cruise that even if it returns a market value of $12-13 pp, it's still a bad deal overall.


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## capjak (Jan 18, 2011)

I agree with Dean, If I was a resaler I would say this is a benefit of buying resale......No Way can you waste your points on cruises/hotels etc...

If you want to go on a cruise et al...rent your points for cash and use the cash to pay for the cruise.

Points should be used for DVC, other uses are a waste of points.


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## rickandcindy23 (Mar 14, 2011)

We are going to wait to buy our points, but we are definitely buying.  We love Disneyland and the DVC there.  Rick said it would be so nice to just walk out of California Adventure and into the resort and to bed.  I am so excited that he finally agreed.


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## chriskre (Mar 14, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> We are going to wait to buy our points, but we are definitely buying.  We love Disneyland and the DVC there.  Rick said it would be so nice to just walk out of California Adventure and into the resort and to bed.  I am so excited that he finally agreed.



You don't have DVC Points?   

I can't believe it as much as you love Disney.   

You are going to love owning DVC.  
Maybe I've got too much pixie dust in my eyes but I love being able to do lots of last minute trips and calling member services is so much more magical than calling RCI.


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## logan115 (Mar 14, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> We are going to wait to buy our points, but we are definitely buying.  We love Disneyland and the DVC there.  Rick said it would be so nice to just walk out of California Adventure and into the resort and to bed.  I am so excited that he finally agreed.



Congrats, I'd recommend using any of the "big 4" DVC resalers, not sure if I'm allowed to name them but if you google DVC resales you'll see the top 3 for sure.

You'll need to own GCV to have a realistic shot at booking there, believe there are only 48 units total.  

Here's some ROFR data for GCV from the DIS thread 
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2661661&page=15

PASSED - VGC (2060): 
ckmouse--------- 100 VGC (Jun) $100, all 09 & 10 pts, buyer pays closing & '10 MF (sub 2/23, passed 3/15) non-member, TTS
elliefusmom------- 100 VGC (Jun) $100, all '09 & '10 pts (passed 3/29) non-member, TTS
godalejunior------ 200 VGC (Dec) $84, all '09 pts, 163 borrowed '10 pts, 37 '10 pts, seller pays closing and mf (sub 5/9, passed 6/1)
tworgs---------- 200 VGC (Jun) $99 (passed 8/31)
taaren----------- 75 VGC (Oct) $81, 33 '11 pts, all '12 pts, buyer and seller split '11 mf (passed 11/12)
thndrmatt------- 160 VGC (Jun) $86, 50 '10 pts, all '11 pts, buyer pays closing, seller pays mf (sub 10/25, passed 11/17) non-member, TTS
lulubelle------100 VGC (Dec) $90, some banked '10 pts, all '11 pts (passed 11/30) member
karriemouse---- 70 VGC (Dec) $80, 70 '09 pts, all '10 & '11 pts, buyer pays closing (sub 12/2, passed 12/27) member
heathpack---------- 70 VGC (Dec) $80, 49 banked '09 pts, all '10 & '11 pts, buyer pays closing, seller pays mf (passed 1/10) member
Davids-Coco-------- 170 VGC (Jun) $93, 170 banked '10 pts, all '11 pts, buyer pays closing and mf (sub 2/7, passed 3/1) member
monami7---------- 160 VGC (Jun) $91, all '09, '10 & '11 pts (sub 2/18, passed 3/7) member

WAITING - VGC:
dbs1228 (seller)------- 160 VGC (Aug) $95, 98 '10 pts, all '11 pys, buyer pays closing and mf (suc 2/22)

ROFR'D - VGC:
is blank.

Hope this helps,

Chris


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## luvsvacation22 (Mar 14, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> We are going to wait to buy our points, but we are definitely buying.  We love Disneyland and the DVC there.  Rick said it would be so nice to just walk out of California Adventure and into the resort and to bed.  I am so excited that he finally agreed.



Finally!  VGC is an awesome resort, we love it there! Congratulations and Welcome Home soon! :whoopie:


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## rickandcindy23 (Mar 14, 2011)

We decided 160-200 points is what we need.  Even Rick is excited about this purchase.  I wonder why the prices vary so much, for the same resort.  Some of the sale prices include saved points and fees paid by seller?  

We were considering a tour of the property first, and Rick said we didn't need to tour, he was already sold, when he saw those guests going right into the resort after the World of Color show.  We still had to take the tram to the parking structure, find our car, and drive 1 hour to Four Seasons Aviara.  Arriving at FSA was really nice, at the end of the night.


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## bnoble (Mar 14, 2011)

> I wonder why the prices vary so much, for the same resort


Even with DVC, the market is not particularly efficient.


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## chriskre (Mar 14, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> We decided 160-200 points is what we need.  Even Rick is excited about this purchase.  I wonder why the prices vary so much, for the same resort.  Some of the sale prices include saved points and fees paid by seller?
> 
> We were considering a tour of the property first, and Rick said we didn't need to tour, he was already sold, when he saw those guests going right into the resort after the World of Color show.  We still had to take the tram to the parking structure, find our car, and drive 1 hour to Four Seasons Aviara.  Arriving at FSA was really nice, at the end of the night.



Once you own DVC then you can do a few nights in Disney and then end up at Aviara that way you enjoy both places without rushing.  I haven't been to CA Disney yet but I know that staying onsite and taking the boat or monorail home after a long day in the parks is so nice. You're gonna be spoiled soon.


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## a1000monkeys (Mar 14, 2011)

I bought VGC points sight unseen.  The location can't be beat.  With three little kids it's great to be able to quickly walk back to the resort for lunch or a nap.  Also, having the kitchen saves us quite a bit on food costs.


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## got4boys (Mar 14, 2011)

I wish I had purchased earlier. I just purchased end of last year. I love the home booking window - any size for points for as little as 1 day.

I use my with RCI Weeks and Points for the week and for extra day to add on at the end  or beginning of the trip for 1 night due to lower air fare.

No booking fees either if you stay at a DVC resort, no banking or borrowing fees and no mousekeeping fees or internet fees either (free if you are a DVC member) There is also the annual pass discount to be a DVC member ($100 off). If you go twice a year or more, the annual pass is definitely worth it.

Peggy


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## rickandcindy23 (Mar 14, 2011)

Extra nights could help us with the frequent flyer tickets that are so hard to get on that one day you need.  

I wish DVC would build on Maui!  I would like to stay a few days to link weeks together.  It's hard to get two weeks that are an exact match.


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## SuzanneSLO (Mar 15, 2011)

got4boys said:


> [snip]No booking fees either if you stay at a DVC resort, no banking or borrowing fees and no mousekeeping fees or internet fees either (free if you are a DVC member) There is also the annual pass discount to be a DVC member ($100 off). If you go twice a year or more, the annual pass is definitely worth it.
> 
> Peggy



Peggy, you are right that the AP for WDW is a great deal. We typically book 2 trips within a 12 month period (Food & Wine, then Flower & Garden), then skip the next year.

Unfortunately, the AP discount for a DL AP is only $20.  -- Suzanne


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## Jay MA (Apr 26, 2011)

*Disney Cruise*

IMO, the loss of the Disney Cruise option is a significant loss to the resale market.  We recently took the cruise and were told that 30% of the passengers were using points.  Many people said that they could never have afforded the cruise if they had to pay cash.  I think this change significantly affects the value of resale DVC.

I do want to point out that the Disney Cruise option is not part of your ownership interest and Disney could choose to eliminate it for DVC members (even those who purchased directly from Disney).  The DVC people said that was an extreemly unlikely to happen, but I am not so certain.


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## equitax (Apr 26, 2011)

*I don't think this is news...*

This was advertised far in advance by disney.  I think the actual tterms were that deal had to be submitted to DVC for ROFR waiver prior to 3/20 in order not to have the rights stripped.

The notice of restrictions was well known and was on promo material since december or january





MichaelColey said:


> Found more details:
> 
> http://dvcnews.com/index.php/news-p...dvc-to-create-direct-purchase-benefit-program
> 
> ...


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## bnoble (Apr 26, 2011)

> We recently took the cruise and were told that 30% of the passengers were using points. Many people said that they could never have afforded the cruise if they had to pay cash.


Then those people are well and truly foolish.  In almost every case I've ever looked at, you could rent out the number of points it takes to book the cruise for $10/pt (the bottom end of the range for non-distressed points), pay cash for the cruise, and have money left over.

For example, our mid-August Alaska cruise this summer would have required 912 DVC points for the four of us, minimum.  Our cash price (without any special discounts) was just over $6K.  So, using points means I would be paying approximately a 50% premium.


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## Dean (Apr 26, 2011)

Jay MA said:


> IMO, the loss of the Disney Cruise option is a significant loss to the resale market.  We recently took the cruise and were told that 30% of the passengers were using points.  Many people said that they could never have afforded the cruise if they had to pay cash.  I think this change significantly affects the value of resale DVC.
> 
> I do want to point out that the Disney Cruise option is not part of your ownership interest and Disney could choose to eliminate it for DVC members (even those who purchased directly from Disney).  The DVC people said that was an extreemly unlikely to happen, but I am not so certain.


The info I've had suggests that DVD tends to limit cruisers to around 10% of a given cruise which is related to the recent issue where they had no availability using points.


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## Twinkstarr (Apr 26, 2011)

bnoble said:


> Then those people are well and truly foolish.  In almost every case I've ever looked at, you could rent out the number of points it takes to book the cruise for $10/pt (the bottom end of the range for non-distressed points), pay cash for the cruise, and have money left over.
> 
> For example, our mid-August Alaska cruise this summer would have required 912 DVC points for the four of us, minimum.  Our cash price (without any special discounts) was just over $6K.  So, using points means I would be paying approximately a 50% premium.



Like Brian, I've also ran the points vs cash numbers. It makes no sense to me to book with points. And if you have to cancel a points reservation,  , major restrictions on how they can be used.

We met some fellow DVC'ers at our elementary school carnival, they bought points to cruise. About bit my tongue off.


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## timeos2 (Apr 26, 2011)

bnoble said:


> Then those people are well and truly foolish.  In almost every case I've ever looked at, you could rent out the number of points it takes to book the cruise for $10/pt (the bottom end of the range for non-distressed points), pay cash for the cruise, and have money left over.
> 
> For example, our mid-August Alaska cruise this summer would have required 912 DVC points for the four of us, minimum.  Our cash price (without any special discounts) was just over $6K.  So, using points means I would be paying approximately a 50% premium.



Have yet to find any deal - Disney or not - using any type of timeshare or points in trade for a cruise that didn't cost MORE than booking it at the best available price without any trade or timeshare or points involved.  I agree with your assessment - they didn't do their homework and believed they were getting a deal because someone said they were. It cost them although they may not know it.


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## logan115 (Apr 27, 2011)

I'll pile on to what the 4 PPs have said (4 folks that really know timesharing inside and out and give out great objective advice) - 99.999999999999999% of the time it does not make sense to use DVC points for cruises.  If anyone is thinking about using points for cruises on a regular basis I'll be happy to take your points and book the cruise for you paying cash from the proceeds I get renting those points to someone else :whoopie: 

Although it was not by design, taking away the option to use resale points for Disney cruises is actually a blessing as it forces people to use the points in a matter that is most effective - stays at DVC resorts.

Good luck,

Chris


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## tomandrobin (Apr 27, 2011)

logan115 said:


> I'll pile on to what the 4 PPs have said (4 folks that really know timesharing inside and out and give out great objective advice) - 99.999999999999999% of the time it does not make sense to use DVC points for cruises.  If anyone is thinking about using points for cruises on a regular basis I'll be happy to take your points and book the cruise for you paying cash from the proceeds I get renting those points to someone else :whoopie:
> 
> Although it was not by design, taking away the option to use resale points for Disney cruises is actually a blessing as it forces people to use the points in a matter that is most effective - stays at DVC resorts.
> 
> ...



I could not have said it any better!

Heck, if you want to use DVC points for a cruise - Give me your points, I'll book you the cruise and give you a very nice room credit to boot!


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## MichaelColey (Apr 27, 2011)

logan115 said:


> Although it was not by design, taking away the option to use resale points for Disney cruises is actually a blessing as it forces people to use the points in a matter that is most effective - stays at DVC resorts.


It really won't have much impact.  I'm sure the ones who would use points on cruises are mostly the same people who buy their points from Disney.  If someone is astute enough to buy resale, I'm sure most of them are astute enough to check the value they get out of cruises.


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## Dean (Apr 27, 2011)

MichaelColey said:


> It really won't have much impact.  I'm sure the ones who would use points on cruises are mostly the same people who buy their points from Disney.  If someone is astute enough to buy resale, I'm sure most of them are astute enough to check the value they get out of cruises.


Unfortunately that's not as true as you'd think. DVC tends to be a very emotional issue where many check their brains at the door.


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## logan115 (Apr 27, 2011)

Dean said:


> Unfortunately that's not as true as you'd think. DVC tends to be a very emotional issue where many check their brains at the door.



Agree, and many also have the misconception that using points doesn't cost them anything as they've already paid for the points vs paying cash for a cruise.  The "why would I pay $6K when I can use my points and pay zero" mentality.

Whether or not they realize those points are worth closer to $9k or more is another story, as is the question or whether they are willing to put in the work required to rent their points.

Some folks either don't have the time nor the interest to search around and get the best deal, they just want the easy way to book a vacation and it works for them.  While most of us would cringe, and many would advise against it, some folks are going to take this option.

Chris


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## jjking42 (Apr 27, 2011)

MichaelColey said:


> Depending on the location, $40-$60 per point.[/QUOTE
> 
> what was the resale price 5 years ago ?


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## bnoble (Apr 27, 2011)

> It really won't have much impact.


I thought so too.  But, look at the land rush that happened during the period just before 3/20, when resales would be exempt from these meaningless "restrictions".  People _fell all over themselves_ to buy "qualified" resales!  So, now I'm not so sure.

In short, H. L. Mencken was correct when he said "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."



> as is the question or whether they are willing to put in the work required to rent their points.


If you let someone like David at DVCByRequest handle the details for you, it's next to no work.  And, last I heard, he was still paying out at $10/point.


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## MichaelColey (Apr 27, 2011)

MichaelColey said:


> Depending on the location, $40-$60 per point.





jjking42 said:


> what was the resale price 5 years ago ?


I wasn't in the market 5 years ago, so I don't know for sure.

With a little searching, it looks like the developer price 5 years ago was about $86 (with discounts).

I found some 2008 data (not quite 5 years ago) that showed some sales passing ROFR at $60-$75, depending on the resort.

I suspect that resale was much closer to developer pricing 5 years ago.


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## Dean (Apr 27, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> Have yet to find any deal - Disney or not - using any type of timeshare or points in trade for a cruise that didn't cost MORE than booking it at the best available price without any trade or timeshare or points involved.  I agree with your assessment - they didn't do their homework and believed they were getting a deal because someone said they were. It cost them although they may not know it.


I think there are exceptions for limited situations.  The main one I've seen is where the contract price is a good one and you need multiple cabins.  I think the one thing that makes DVC different than most other situations in timesharing where you can trade for cruises is that there is a real and liquid market for converting points to cash.  I can't think of another timeshare system that can really say that.  There are certainly pockets here and there if you own the right thing or know just what to reserve and offer but nothing else where it's generally easy to rent out the points for a fair price.



logan115 said:


> Agree, and many also have the misconception that using points doesn't cost them anything as they've already paid for the points vs paying cash for a cruise.  The "why would I pay $6K when I can use my points and pay zero" mentality.
> 
> Whether or not they realize those points are worth closer to $9k or more is another story, as is the question or whether they are willing to put in the work required to rent their points.
> 
> ...


I don't care what people do with their points.  I do care if they know where they stand and the risks and costs involved.  I think most who think it's a good deal to use points for cruises look at rack rates and compare that way.  No different than using MSRP on comparing car prices, it's an almost meaningless number.  One thing to note is that until you get short notice, the risks of using points is far greater than that of renting and using cash.



Jay MA said:


> IMO, the loss of the Disney Cruise option is a significant loss to the resale market.  We recently took the cruise and were told that 30% of the passengers were using points.  Many people said that they could never have afforded the cruise if they had to pay cash.  I think this change significantly affects the value of resale DVC.
> 
> I do want to point out that the Disney Cruise option is not part of your ownership interest and Disney could choose to eliminate it for DVC members (even those who purchased directly from Disney).  The DVC people said that was an extreemly unlikely to happen, but I am not so certain.


Anyone that tells you cruise exchanges don't have a real risk of being eliminated or priced out of line for everyone, is a fool.  However, the recent change  makes is less likely they will go away.  



logan115 said:


> Some folks either don't have the time nor the interest to search around and get the best deal, they just want the easy way to book a vacation and it works for them.  While most of us would cringe, and many would advise against it, some folks are going to take this option.
> 
> Chris


Laziness and ignorance are often costly situations.


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## icydog (May 5, 2011)

In the Olden Days before I knew you could rent points we often used our points for cruises. Not that I would do that now but without information you make choices on the choices given you. I saw that cruises were an option and I took it. BUT in the Olden Days DVC cruises were not nearly as expensive in points as they are now. They were more of a "good deal" than has been the case of the last 10 years.


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