# Now I think I have seen it all! [merged]



## KathyPet (Jan 31, 2012)

Here at St. Kitts they have the mesh fabric pool chairs.  Some of the chairs (maybe 10%) have those nice thick pads that attach with the straps.  I like the padded chairs but it is not my life's work to get one and certainly not worth getting up at 7 AM to put my things on one to claim one.  Yesterday afternoon around 4 as people were picking up to leave the pool area a couple who did have two chairs with pads seated on the other side of the pool got up, picked up their stuff and then removed the pads from the chairs they were seated in and walked into their villa with them.  If that don't beat all!


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## m61376 (Jan 31, 2012)

That's almost sad. You do get to see a snapshot of human nature sometimes, and not always for the better.

I would have so loved to hear that security intervened.


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## ronparise (Jan 31, 2012)

I think thats to be expected there ... I wouldnt be surprised if actually more  of the chairs should have those pads and if you were to check all the units you would find them


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## timeos2 (Jan 31, 2012)

At our resorts (both non-names) each & every chair/lounge has a cushion. In fact they have two so each night they are removed, cleaned & replaced the next day. Hard to believe that the "premium" Marriott system would only have cushions on some chairs and worse not clean them after the day use is over. What does that extra $300-$400 or more in annual fees pay for besides Marriott profits? Perfect (small) example of why I find brand names a bad bet.


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## MALC9990 (Jan 31, 2012)

KathyPet said:


> Here at St. Kitts they have the mesh fabric pool chairs.  Some of the chairs (maybe 10%) have those nice thick pads that attach with the straps.  I like the padded chairs but it is not my life's work to get one and certainly not worth getting up at 7 AM to put my things on one to claim one.  Yesterday afternoon around 4 as people were picking up to leave the pool area a couple who did have two chairs with pads seated on the other side of the pool got up, picked up their stuff and then removed the pads from the chairs they were seated in and walked into their villa with them.  If that don't beat all!



What a sad pair - really not necessary. Here at PBC - each of the 3 pools has a team of staff who look after all the guests very well. However each pair of pool side sun beds has a notice which clearly states that if you leave your sun bed unoccupied for more than an hour and there are guests looking for a bed then you things will be removed by the staff and the beds reused.


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## scrapngen (Jan 31, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> At our resorts (both non-names) each & every chair/lounge has a cushion. In fact they have two so each night they are removed, cleaned & replaced the next day. Hard to believe that the "premium" Marriott system would only have cushions on some chairs and worse not clean them after the day use is over. What does that extra $300-$400 or more in annual fees pay for besides Marriott profits? Perfect (small) example of why I find brand names a bad bet.



sigh....what did Marriott do to you that makes you so aggressive toward the brand that you continually lurk on the _Marriott_ boards to find any conceivable negatives (conveniently ignoring all positives and/or STILL starting arguments re: same) and post how your no-name is SOOOO much better??? 

(mind you, I'm not saying it's not ----- PLEEEEASE don't tell me how I'm another blind M owner who pays big bucks for something you get for pennies -----)

 just that you seem to revel in this...yet don't go after Starwood owners, Four Seasons owners, etc...


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## GregT (Jan 31, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> At our resorts (both non-names) each & every chair/lounge has a cushion. In fact they have two so each night they are removed, cleaned & replaced the next day. Hard to believe that the "premium" Marriott system would only have cushions on some chairs and worse not clean them after the day use is over. What does that extra $300-$400 or more in annual fees pay for besides Marriott profits? Perfect (small) example of why I find brand names a bad bet.





scrapngen said:


> sigh....what did Marriott do to you that makes you so aggressive toward the brand that you continually lurk on the boards to find any conceivable negatives (conveniently ignoring all positives and/or STILL starting arguments re: same) and post how your no-name is SOOOO much better???
> 
> (mind you, I'm not saying it's not ----- PLEEEEASE don't tell me how I'm another blind M owner who pays big bucks for something you get for pennies -----)
> 
> just that you seem to revel in this...yet don't go after Starwood owners, Four Seasons owners, etc...



ScrapnGen beat me too it -- not sure why it's so important.


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## timeos2 (Jan 31, 2012)

scrapngen said:


> just that you seem to revel in this...yet don't go after Starwood owners, Four Seasons owners, etc...



It is the same with all the brands. For some reason the Marriott owners choose to be more aggressive with the "it's the only way we can have quality" nonsense recently.  It used to be DVC - maybe Starwood will be next? 

The underlying, simple fact is that brand names aren't required for quality. Owner vigilance & demands drive that. Paying for the name is an expensive shortcut to perceived quality, not an actual guarantee.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 31, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> ... What does that extra $300-$400 or more in annual fees pay for besides Marriott profits? Perfect (small) example of why I find brand names a bad bet.



*AGAIN, John, your trolling in the Marriott boards is not helpful to those who come here looking for accurate information about Marriott timeshares.*

Once more, Marriott's management fee is equal to 10% of the operating expenses as determined by the regularly-audited annual Operating Budgets.  In order for Marriott to collect $300-$400 in management fees, the owners' MF would have to be $3,300-$4,400 ($3K + 10% to $4K + 10%.)  The MF for the resort at St. Kitt's, including Marriott's fee and property taxes, ranges between $1,501.79 and $1,952.83.

If you want to continue extolling your preferred timeshare model, the stand-alone non-branded model that doesn't generate profits for the big bad name-brand developers, have at it.  I don't care if you shout it from every thread.  But if you continue to try to prove that your model is better than the name-brand model by misrepresenting the name-brand model, which is what you've done here with incorrect MF info, then I'm going to call you on it every time.

As a moderator I would hope that you would be able to look at this with impartial moderator eyes and realize that what you're doing is not conducive to TUG's stated goals of being the best timeshare info source available.  But it doesn't appear to me that you're able to do that.  So if you continue, I will ask your fellow moderators to review what you post whenever you post incorrect Marriott information.

You know, I've said before, I like you and I like reading you.  But you're now at the point where what you're contributing to the Marriott threads on TUG is just flat-out wrong.  Not helpful, not nice, not cool.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 31, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> It is the same with all the brands. For some reason the Marriott owners choose to be more aggressive with the "it's the only way we can have quality" nonsense recently.  It used to be DVC - maybe Starwood will be next?
> 
> The underlying, simple fact is that brand names aren't required for quality. Owner vigilance & demands drive that. Paying for the name is an expensive shortcut to perceived quality, not an actual guarantee.



I'm one of the most pro-Marriott TUGgers, yet I haven't EVER said that your preference for a non-branded timeshare is somehow wrong.  You are more aggressive with the "it's the only way" stance than anyone!  If you would bother to read what we happy Marriott owners actually write and respond to that, instead of your perception of what we write, then we wouldn't have a problem.  We have NEVER said that a Marriott or other brand-name timeshare is the "only way to get quality;" what we've said is that there are intangible benefits to owning a Marriott timeshare, such as inclusion in the Marriott Rewards program and the II Marriott-to-Marriott preference, and "the only way to get" those intangibles is through ownership of a Marriott timeshare.  There's a difference, and you're deliberately misrepresenting what we say about that difference, to prove an argument that doesn't exist.


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## scrapngen (Jan 31, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> It is the same with all the brands. For some reason the Marriott owners choose to be more aggressive with the "it's the only way we can have quality" nonsense recently.  It used to be DVC - maybe Starwood will be next?
> 
> The underlying, simple fact is that brand names aren't required for quality. Owner vigilance & demands drive that. Paying for the name is an expensive shortcut to perceived quality, not an actual guarantee.




Hmmm...don't see that "nonsense" you speak of being said here....And the only one talking about "it's the only way we can have quality" is YOUR interpretation. In almost all of the threads I've read, the "M people (who are often owners of other properties as well - no names included) are quick to say there are other quality resorts. Sometimes they DO say that it gets a more consistent level - or that the level is virtually the same across the resorts _due to the branding_ - so you know what you'll get. 

*BUT*.... the few times when they say it's the *only* way they get what they want - they are usually referring to a *very* specific location/time of year/view/size etc. that ownership in their particular M resort *guarantees* them. *Not *that it's great simply because it's a Marriott. (!) They do not deny people can stay there for less, (altho they WILL argue that you won't get THAT SPECIFIC VIEW/SIZE/TIME OF YEAR with that trade) or that they can stay at other great places that might be nicer in quality - they say that to get *specifically* what they want, they need to own, and resale is best. 

Again, I don't see you attacking similar threads like this one in Starwood or other name branded threads...and it seems to me that Starwood and Four Seasons owners are just as likely to say that the only way to get to certain properties in their chains is also to own - but that doesn't seem to bother you. It seems that you have a bias toward M and also a bias toward M owners. (BUT still like to stay at their properties:hysterical: )

I, too, actually value your input and posts - but when it comes to Marriott - it is the inaccuracies that you pronounce as factual and your willingness to fight without regard to OP's intent -  that bother me


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## scrapngen (Jan 31, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> I'm one of the most pro-Marriott TUGgers, yet I haven't EVER said that your preference for a non-branded timeshare is somehow wrong.  You are more aggressive with the "it's the only way" stance than anyone!  If you would bother to read what we happy Marriott owners actually write and respond to that, instead of your perception of what we write, then we wouldn't have a problem.  We have NEVER said that a Marriott or other brand-name timeshare is the "only way to get quality;" what we've said is that there are intangible benefits to owning a Marriott timeshare, such as inclusion in the Marriott Rewards program and the II Marriott-to-Marriott preference, and "the only way to get" those intangibles is through ownership of a Marriott timeshare.  There's a difference, and you're deliberately misrepresenting what we say about that difference, to prove an argument that doesn't exist.



We overlapped w/a similar response - but you are a much better writer than I am - good at maintaining an even tone - and have an amazing knowledge of the brand and its resorts, which is why I don't normally post when you are there.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 31, 2012)

scrapngen said:


> We overlapped w/a similar response - but you are a much better writer than I am - good at maintaining an even tone - and have an amazing knowledge of the brand and its resorts, which is why I don't normally post when you are there.



Oh my, thank you.   

This is why I love TUG so much - practically everything I know about timeshares I learned here, either when posters wrote it or when they wrote how to find it.  I really believe it's an invaluable resource and every poster has something to contribute.  Getting off-track occasionally is expected, but eventually we all get it right.


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## thinze3 (Jan 31, 2012)

KathyPet said:


> Here at St. Kitts they have the mesh fabric pool chairs.  Some of the chairs (maybe 10%) have those nice thick pads that attach with the straps.  I like the padded chairs but it is not my life's work to get one and certainly not worth getting up at 7 AM to put my things on one to claim one.  Yesterday afternoon around 4 as people were picking up to leave the pool area a couple who did have two chairs with pads seated on the other side of the pool got up, picked up their stuff and then removed the pads from the chairs they were seated in and walked into their villa with them.  If that don't beat all!



Because you are not "worrying" about it, you are in a much better state of mind. 

Enjoy. 


.


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## ronparise (Jan 31, 2012)

Im with the voice in the wilderness here (John)  I think its important to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Johns posts provide a valuable counter point to the "Marriott is better and worth the premium price and the rest of you are nuts if you dont agree", attitude  shown here on TUG. 

Marriott may be different, but certainly not better than Wyndham or any other timeshare, (they all provide a comfortable home away from home while on vacation)

Just as your Mercedes is different but no better than my Ford (both seem to work just fine to get us from here to there)

If you are willing to pay an unwarrented premium for your Mercedes and Marriott; good for you. I dont get it and I thank John for his posts letting me know Im not completely nuts for thinking that way


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## SueDonJ (Jan 31, 2012)

ronparise said:


> ... Johns posts provide a valuable counter point to the "Marriott is better and worth the premium price and the rest of you are nuts if you dont agree", attitude  shown here on TUG. ...



Each and every timeshare system has its proponents and detractors.  There is nothing wrong with preferring one over the other and there is nothing wrong with the occasional TUG to-do over how folks formed their preferences.

I honestly can't think of any one Marriott owner here who has said unequivocally in response to any and every Marriott-related discussion that, ""Marriott is better and worth the premium price and the rest of you are nuts if you dont agree."  And I don't believe either that it is the prevailing attitude on TUG among Marriott owners - in fact as a VERY happy owner, I'm more attuned to the prevailing sentiment among TUG Marriott owners that Marriott is failing its owners with all the recent changes!

When we Marriott owners extoll the virtues of Marriott timeshares, we generally support our opinions with the facts about our experiences owning them.  What shouldn't EVER be tolerated on TUG is what Timeos has taken to doing lately, which is misrepresenting or falsifying information about Marriott timeshares in order to make his point.  That's just wrong.  It doesn't help anybody.

I thought that it was against the rules for posters to repeatedly hijack threads off-topic to further one specific agenda.  Timeos is also doing that.  If it is against TUG rules, I'd like to see a moderator step in and do something to stop it.


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## timeos2 (Jan 31, 2012)

I didn't want to post on this thread again as I already made my comment. But in answer to the last post stating a differing opinion on a post made by someone else isn't hijacking a thread.  Enough said.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 31, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> I didn't want to post on this thread again as I already made my comment. But in answer to the last post stating a differing opinion on a post made by someone else isn't hijacking a thread.  Enough said.



I'm sorry, but in the latest thread the OP complained about folks who took the cushions from their pool loungers when they left the area, and you responded with incorrect information about Marriott's management fees.  How you can correlate the two is beyond me.


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## Passepartout (Jan 31, 2012)

KathyPet said:


> Yesterday afternoon around 4 as people were picking up to leave the pool area a couple who did have two chairs with pads seated on the other side of the pool got up, picked up their stuff and then removed the pads from the chairs they were seated in and walked into their villa with them.  If that don't beat all!



This is simply human nature. Some would call it 'entitlement'. "I own here, so therefore the lounge pads are mine." Sharing the resource (or pad) never enters their mind.

No reason to bash one system or another. There are selfish a$$es everywhere.

I would give the resort the benefit of the doubt, that on St. Kitts, the lounge pads are very nice and special ones. It isn't like management can just send someone down to WalMart for replacements.

Report the behavior to the pool concierge and be done with it.  

Jim


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## thinze3 (Jan 31, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> I'm sorry, but in the latest thread the OP complained about folks who took the cushions from their pool loungers when they left the area, and you responded with incorrect information about Marriott's management fees.  How you can correlate the two is beyond me.



By asking John questions you are stringing him along.  Be Strong!


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## Smooth Air (Jan 31, 2012)

Kathy,
I think I saw the "pad snatching couple" at Ocean Pointe when we were there last April! While they did not "take" things up to their villa, they always arrived ( she would dispatch him) at the Sailfish pool at 7:00AM. He would "claim" 6 chairs...always the same spot....on the west side of the pool, facing east, in front of the main lobby. He would toss books, towels, t-shirts on each chair, place plastic noodles & flip flops under the chairs. It was quite unbelievable to watch. Then "his" chairs would remain unoccupied ( except for all of thier junk) until around noon when she would show up. 

This "entitled" couple had 2 little kids. The kids never sat on the chairs, the father never sat on the chairs...the kids ran around and he chased the kids. Meanwhile, she luxuriated in the sun, sunbathing....6 chairs for one woman. The chairs remained "claimed" by these 2 until the end of the day. One day it rained and they were not there when the rain started. They were often "not there" throughout the day. They did not come back to pick up their stuff. I don't know what happened.  

It was unbelievable. Even more unbelievable was that not once did the "chair monitors"/Loss Prevention people ( or whatever they call those Ocean Pointe employees who walk around the pool but do nothing ) remove their stuff. That's what they tell us they do. But they don't.  

I guess now they are in St. Kitts "claiming" chair pads. I guess you can be grateful they are only taking 2 instead of 6!!  

Smooth Air


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## timeos2 (Jan 31, 2012)

*The PC version*

So the altered (and very last - promise!) version of my original comment, altered to fit the thread I guess, is: 

I'm very surprised that a quality resort would not have enough cushions for the pool chairs. In fact I would expect them to have TWO per chair so one can be cleaned while the other is in use.  That is how it is done at resorts (to remain unnamed) I am personally familiar with. 

Perhaps the fees are too low to allow this level of quality & service?  Or maybe the fees are being used for the wrong purposes? I suggest owners look into this with their Board. 

It is wrong that a guest would take the cushion so they alone will have it the next day, but the bigger question is why they don't have enough to begin with. 

Better now?


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## davewasbaloo (Jan 31, 2012)

Smooth Air said:


> Kathy,
> I think I saw the "pad snatching couple" at Ocean Pointe when we were there last April! While they did not "take" things up to their villa, they always arrived ( she would dispatch him) at the Sailfish pool at 7:00AM. He would "claim" 6 chairs...always the same spot....on the west side of the pool, facing east, in front of the main lobby. He would toss books, towels, t-shirts on each chair, place plastic noodles & flip flops under the chairs. It was quite unbelievable to watch. Then "his" chairs would remain unoccupied ( except for all of thier junk) until around noon when she would show up.
> 
> This "entitled" couple had 2 little kids. The kids never sat on the chairs, the father never sat on the chairs...the kids ran around and he chased the kids. Meanwhile, she luxuriated in the sun, sunbathing....6 chairs for one woman. The chairs remained "claimed" by these 2 until the end of the day. One day it rained and they were not there when the rain started. They were often "not there" throughout the day. They did not come back to pick up their stuff. I don't know what happened.
> ...



Lol, there is a running joke that the Germans do this around the globe and indeed I have witnessed it many times. Though on cruises, I saw this most frequently with fellow Americans.

I am surprised that not all the chairs have their own mats. I must confess, I would rather pay more maintenance and have the place ship shape. For example, at our resort, they stopped heating the outdoor pool. That really annoys me as I would rather it be used than be a glorified duck pond.....


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## rrlongwell (Jan 31, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> ... When we Marriott owners extoll the virtues of Marriott timeshares, we generally support our opinions with the facts about our experiences owning them ...



Attempting to surpress a variety of discussions pertaining to any brand name Timeshares Groups is a mistake.  Marriott is a very good case study on a major player that has seen fit to spin off their timeshare division (this suggests that this group had serious problems).  The discussions could be very benifical to both former Marriott managed properties owners (note:  the new group still uses the Marriott name) and other owners in groups like Sheradon and Wyndham.  I hope Timesos2 reconsiders and continues to post.

Tug just reached a new low, in my book.  I will be sure to pass on the sterotyping crack onto my German born wife.  I would hope the Moderator would edit that on general principles, even though it is not directly prohibited in the rules (after a couple of years, I finally got around to reading them).


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## scrapngen (Jan 31, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> So the altered (and very last - promise!) version of my original comment, altered to fit the thread I guess, is:
> 
> I'm very surprised that a quality resort would not have enough cushions for the pool chairs. In fact I would expect them to have TWO per chair so one can be cleaned while the other is in use.  That is how it is done at resorts (to remain unnamed) I am personally familiar with.
> 
> ...



Getting better  and glad to see you maintaining a sense of humor. So in the same spirit - maybe you'd like a thread entitled "What types of chaise loungers/cushioned or not and how are they maintained at various resorts??" This could also cover # of loungers vs size of pool/ownership. This could be posted in a general TS forum so as not to seem directed. 

Then we can discuss why one resort might or might not care for their loungers in contrast to their fees... Could it be the cost of goods in the area? the cost of labor in same? what about historical problems at the resort leading to the current decisions? 

Actually, this thread might be of interest to many, as loungers by poolside is an important part of the general enjoyment of many TS locations!!    

See??? NOW it becomes less of an argument or perceived dig at "high MF, name brand resorts," and more of a discussion providing insight and better knowledge of a variety of resorts...


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## SueDonJ (Jan 31, 2012)

rrlongwell said:


> Attempting to surpress a variety of discussions pertaining to any brand name Timeshares Groups is a mistake.  Marriott is a very good case study on a major player that has seen fit to spin off their timeshare division (this suggests that this group had serious problems).  The discussions could be very benifical to both former Marriott managed properties owners (note:  the new group still uses the Marriott name) and other owners in groups like Sheradon and Wyndham.  I hope Timesos2 reconsiders and continues to post. ...



I don't want to suppress any spirited, factual discussions about Marriott and other timeshares.  I agree with you - looking at a subject from all sides, positive and negative and everything in-between,  is the most beneficial way to reach an informed opinion.  But if non-factual info and other misrepresentations are allowed to stand in any such discussion, the opinion formed is flawed.


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## KathyPet (Jan 31, 2012)

Wow!  All I wanted to do was comment on the cushion hoarders  not start WW3.  
Unfortunately here at St. Kitts the timeshare units and the hotel share the same property.  The pools and accompanying loungers belong to and  are maintained by the hotel.  The vacation club pays a fee to the hotel to provide and maintain these type of amenities

Also the there is no pool concierge or any security staff lurking to enforce any rules


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## scrapngen (Jan 31, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> I don't want to suppress any spirited, factual discussions about Marriott and other timeshares.  I agree with you - looking at a subject from all sides, positive and negative and everything in-between,  is the most beneficial way to reach an informed opinion.  But if non-factual info and other misrepresentations are allowed to stand in any such discussion, the opinion formed is flawed.



REALLLLY need a "LIKE" button! It's a great way to say "I am in agreement with the statements/sentiments posted, and she/he said it as well as or (in many cases) much better than I would have...  

Sue, you'd have a lot of "LIKES." It is not so much that I am always in agreement with you. (altho I can be)  but on days like today, you have a way of stating what I am also thinking in a very level, calm, "stick-to-the-facts, Maam"  way.  I also appreciate your doggedness on pursuing Marriott policies, reading through the legalese, and quoting same when questions arise.


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## scrapngen (Jan 31, 2012)

KathyPet said:


> Wow!  All I wanted to do was comment on the cushion hoarders  not start WW3.
> Unfortunately here at St. Kitts the timeshare units and the hotel share the same property.  The pools and accompanying loungers belong to and  are maintained by the hotel.  The vacation club pays a fee to the hotel to provide and maintain these type of amenities
> 
> Also the there is no pool concierge or any security staff lurking to enforce any rules



I think you just inadvertantly became the straw that broke the camel's back. Or maybe an analogy about releasing the floodgates would be more apropos...  

**And I apologise, since I never (except recently) stayed on your topic, either! 

Truly, I originally read this thread and thought like you did!! Geezz, the things people do! Actually, I was trying to imagine this guy walking from the pool down hallways and/or elevators with these huge cushions!!! What on earth anyone he passed must have thought  Then you have them in your room, taking up space, smelling like sweat and chlorine (or maybe pristine after having been cleaned for the night by the staff  ) Meanwhile, juggling drink mug, book, pool toys, towels (well, got them poolside, probably) 

THen again, I've trailed along as my DH has done some crazy (to me, but obviously not to him) thing that supposedly makes his stay better, but is either embarrassing, ridiculous, slightly bending of potential rules etc. to me. And I'm sure I've done the same to him. Just never would dream of taking lounge chair cushions and hoarding them during my stay!!:hysterical:


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## mike2200 (Jan 31, 2012)

KathyPet said:


> Here at St. Kitts they have the mesh fabric pool chairs.  Some of the chairs (maybe 10%) have those nice thick pads that attach with the straps.  I like the padded chairs but it is not my life's work to get one and certainly not worth getting up at 7 AM to put my things on one to claim one.  Yesterday afternoon around 4 as people were picking up to leave the pool area a couple who did have two chairs with pads seated on the other side of the pool got up, picked up their stuff and then removed the pads from the chairs they were seated in and walked into their villa with them.  If that don't beat all!



couldn't pay for such entertainment...


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## timeos2 (Jan 31, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> I don't want to suppress any spirited, factual discussions about Marriott and other timeshares.  I agree with you - looking at a subject from all sides, positive and negative and everything in-between,  is the most beneficial way to reach an informed opinion.  But if non-factual info and other misrepresentations are allowed to stand in any such discussion, the opinion formed is flawed.



Sue - Being serious now you are assuming that my so called crusade against Marriott (it is not by the way - I suspect ALL developer controlled resorts - name or no name it doesn't matter) is somehow wrong (as in non-factual). I see the statements such as "only a XXX brand timeshare can give me quality" as being the misstatements as I know for a fact it isn't true. 

A recent thread here in the Marriott section is a great example. A question was raised by an owner about what can be on the table when the management is up for renewal.  Some who apparently are blinded by a name jump in to say "you can't ask for lower fees (and other things) or Marriott will walk away!". THAT is a dangerous and totally incorrect statement. One too prevalent when only one view - that the mothership corporation, whoever that may be, is looking out for the members - is allowed to be the only voice in the woods. 

It is the job of YOUR resort Board to question things and make demands when it's time to renegotiate the management agreement (just one of many examples).  It is NOT in you best interest for them to simply rubber stamp whatever corporation X demands as some seem to think is necessary. It doesn't mean the current management has to be removed or changed but they need to know they work for the owners - not the other way around. 

I fear the newbies / uninformed will believe the misrepresentations often fostered by all sales organizations.  The examples above are certainly key ones and it takes years of ownership and often more involvement than most owners ever care to have to learn what is really going on and how things can be manipulated. It's hardly ever in the owners favor except for the great advice/insights from so many here on TUG.  And much of it comes from opposing views based on real experience rather than perceptions. 

No one - certainly not me - knows it all.  I do have nearly 20 years of active participation in timesharing groups, as a HOA member and with many sales & management organizations.  I have also owned a wide selection of resorts & systems including the name brands. My posts are certainly my take on all I've seen & learned over that time. In some cases I see pitfalls I wish I had been made aware of years ago without learning them through sometimes hard life lessons.  

Fern, Dave, Spence and many others who were around when I first got interested used to try to pass on what they knew and we all learned together from those varied experiences. Much of what they said conflicted with "common sense" but it turns out timeshares don't subscribe to common sense - they truly are a tiny world of their own.  TUG has done great making options known to squeeze the best value out. I hope my small contributions have added at least something to the mix. Limiting what you want to read or hear is your right but it may pay to at least think about a different take rather than just the party line every time.


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## thinze3 (Jan 31, 2012)

Don't say I didn't warn you! :ignore: 




SueDonJ said:


> I'm sorry, but in the latest thread the OP complained about folks who took the cushions from their pool loungers when they left the area, and you responded with incorrect information about Marriott's management fees.  How you can correlate the two is beyond me.



followed by



thinze3 said:


> By asking John questions you are stringing him along.  Be Strong!


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## SueDonJ (Jan 31, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Sue - Being serious now you are assuming that my so called crusade against Marriott (it is not by the way - I suspect ALL developer controlled resorts - name or no name it doesn't matter) is somehow wrong (as in non-factual). I see the statements such as "only a XXX brand timeshare can give me quality" as being the misstatements as I know for a fact it isn't true. ...



John, I understand your preference for a timeshare that is not one of the name-brands.  No problem there at all, and like I've said before, someday if/when my preference changes to a stand-alone model, I'm going to be very grateful for the knowledge I've gained from you about that model.  As anyone would be - you're a tireless champion for the model you prefer and there is nothing wrong with that!

My problem is that lately it seems that you've begun inserting your opinion in threads where the overall timeshare model isn't related to the topic, and/or, misrepresenting the Marriott product when you do share your opinion.  One example is the topic of Marriott's 10% Management Fee.  You told me yourself that you believe Marriott consistently pads the Operating Budgets of the individual resorts by forcing the BOD/HOA to purchase goods and hire employees at higher costs than are necessary, in an effort to increase their 10% take.  You told me that you know this is happening because of one product at one resort which an owner told you about.  I and several others responded with facts about the ways our resorts' BODs were able to contain and in some cases reduce costs with Marriott's support but you've yet to acknowledge those factual statements.  In the particular thread that brought all this to a head today, you referred to Marriott's management fee being in the $300-$400 range and I pointed out that at the resort in question that figure is impossible based on the resort's actual Operating Budget.  That's one of the examples I'd use for saying that you're not stating facts.



timeos2 said:


> ... A recent thread here in the Marriott section is a great example. A question was raised by an owner about what can be on the table when the management is up for renewal.  Some who apparently are blinded by a name jump in to say "you can't ask for lower fees (and other things) or Marriott will walk away!". THAT is a dangerous and totally incorrect statement. One too prevalent when only one view - that the mothership corporation, whoever that may be, is looking out for the members - is allowed to be the only voice in the woods.
> 
> It is the job of YOUR resort Board to question things and make demands when it's time to renegotiate the management agreement (just one of many examples).  It is NOT in you best interest for them to simply rubber stamp whatever corporation X demands as some seem to think is necessary. It doesn't mean the current management has to be removed or changed but they need to know they work for the owners - not the other way around. ...



You're right, it is the job of the BOD to further the owners' best interests whenever possible.  Having access to Marriott governing docs and understanding how the Developer/Manager/HOA relationship functions at Marriott resorts, it is my opinion that trying to force Marriott to accept anything less than the 10% Management Fee that is stipulated in the governing docs could have dire consequences for the owners.  It is my opinion that the 10% is too lucrative/important to Marriott for them to give it up easily, and that if they concede it at one of their resorts they will open the floodgates for all other resorts to demand the same.  I just don't see it happening, and I'm one of the folks in that thread saying exactly that.

But I also said that seeing as it's a stipulation in the governing docs, it is theoretically possible for an ownership majority vote to change it.  (That's not a route that I would want my fellow owners at my resorts to take because I think the risk of losing Marriott's management is too great, and I like owning a Marriott-managed timeshare.  But others are certainly free to disagree with me.)  I also agreed with someone else in the thread who said that it may be possible for the BOD/HOA to negotiate other concessions in order to reduce fees.  So IMO the management contract renegotiation with Marriott isn't an all-or-nothing "you either kowtow to Marriott in all ways or else" situation, but rather a situation that requires a realistic view of the various risks and rewards.     



timeos2 said:


> ... I fear the newbies / uninformed will believe the misrepresentations often fostered by all sales organizations.  The examples above are certainly key ones and it takes years of ownership and often more involvement than most owners ever care to have to learn what is really going on and how things can be manipulated. It's hardly ever in the owners favor except for the great advice/insights from so many here on TUG.  And much of it comes from opposing views based on real experience rather than perceptions.
> 
> No one - certainly not me - knows it all.  I do have nearly 20 years of active participation in timesharing groups, as a HOA member and with many sales & management organizations.  I have also owned a wide selection of resorts & systems including the name brands. My posts are certainly my take on all I've seen & learned over that time. In some cases I see pitfalls I wish I had been made aware of years ago without learning them through sometimes hard life lessons.
> 
> Fern, Dave, Spence and many others who were around when I first got interested used to try to pass on what they knew and we all learned together from those varied experiences. Much of what they said conflicted with "common sense" but it turns out timeshares don't subscribe to common sense - they truly are a tiny world of their own.  TUG has done great making options known to squeeze the best value out. I hope my small contributions have added at least something to the mix. Limiting what you want to read or hear is your right but it may pay to at least think about a different take rather than just the party line every time.



John, I'm a big supporter of yours.  Over the years you and the other mavens have taught me many things and I imagine there is still much that I could learn from you all.  But I have learned enough to know that none of us ever gets everything right, and I think I now have enough Marriott-specific knowledge to point out to you when you're wrong.  IMO, you've recently almost-irrationally upped the anti-Marriott campaign here on the Marriott board where we Marriott owners would like to be able to discuss both the pros and cons of our resorts without always having to be on the defensive, and I think you're wrong for taking it to such an extreme.  It's not personal, and I sincerely hope that you don't take it that way.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 31, 2012)

thinze3 said:


> Don't say I didn't warn you! :ignore:



OK, Terry, now I'm done.  But I saw a glimmer of an olive branch and wanted to give John the benefit of the doubt.


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## Beefnot (Jan 31, 2012)

Don't underestimate the power of branding.  No different from Sony or Pepsi or Mercedes or any other brand.  Vizios televisions may perform every bit as well as Sony, RC every bit as tasty as Pepsi, and upscale Hyundais every bit as luxurious as Mercedes.  But guess what?  They ain't Sony, Pepsi, or Mercedes.  Building brand perception and loyalty is valuable, both to the brand--as this allows for a premium to be charged--and to the customer--as there is an inherent trust and comfort in the product.

Timeos2 makes many correct points that we indeed can have comparable quality for less.  This is a perspective that I tend to share, and there is much that can be learned if people sit back and absorb it.  However, people don't necessarily place equal value on their time to research and develop trust in off-brand items.  Whereas some of us may enjoy the tireless effort to discover hidden gems that will maximize our utility while simultaneously minimizing our out-of-pocket expense, others are perfectly happy in shortcutting the effort vs. utility vs. expense equation through the simple optimization approach of selecting a brand they trust.

I have no problem with timeos2's point of view, and I believe it to be a very valuable endeavor to dispel brand "myths".  The issue I have is the apparent lack of discernment with when to wield the weapon.  If the title/purpose of a given thread warrants raising the issue, or if there is a need to correct factual or perceptual misstatements, then boom, lay down the heavy-handed perspective and open up the debate.  When it's folks celebrating why they love their brand or complaining about human behavior or some minor gripe with a property, I really don't see the productivity of whipping out the stick.  The message gets lost when there is no discernment on the part of the messenger.


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## AwayWeGo (Jan 31, 2012)

*Whoa!  Vizio Isn't Premium?  Who Knew?*




Beefnot said:


> Vizios televisions may perform every bit as well as Sony, RC every bit as tasty as Pepsi, and upscale Hyundais every bit as luxurious as Mercedes.  But guess what?  They ain't Sony, Pepsi, or Mercedes.


Shux, I thought Vizio was considered a premium TV brand, right up there with Sony & all the other big bux TVs & electronics.  Just goes to show how out of touch I am. 

One brand name product that for sure is better than any no-name _el cheapo_ is Gillette razor blades.  Gillette blades are way better than any other I've tried for comfort & smoothness -- not to mention shaving close without nicking the skin. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Quilter (Jan 31, 2012)

KathyPet said:


> Here at St. Kitts they have the mesh fabric pool chairs.  Some of the chairs (maybe 10%) have those nice thick pads that attach with the straps.  I like the padded chairs but it is not my life's work to get one and certainly not worth getting up at 7 AM to put my things on one to claim one.  Yesterday afternoon around 4 as people were picking up to leave the pool area a couple who did have two chairs with pads seated on the other side of the pool got up, picked up their stuff and then removed the pads from the chairs they were seated in and walked into their villa with them.  If that don't beat all!



Hi Kathy,

I don't know if you'll see this since the thread was hijacked but here's my 2 cents with regards to the chair pads.

There could have been a legitimate reason the couple pulled them off and carried them away.   They could have specifically asked management to supply them with a couple--maybe even rented them.   They could have bought them like you can buy the bedding and bathrobes.   They could have "borrowed"  the cushions from another pool area and were returning them.   

All of the above are a stretch but my concern would be to dwell on the unpleasant thought of such entitled behavior without know all the details.

I had to look at the St. Kitts website to see if there was more than 1 pool.   We stayed at the hotel years ago and the pictures reminded me how pretty it is.   I hope you have a very relaxing stay.   If I was there I would book a reservation for a lovely dinner at Marshall's and ask for a table overlooking the cliff.   

Suzzanne


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## Beefnot (Jan 31, 2012)

Why not make management aware of what you witnessed and, if this is unsanctioned behavior, that you are very displeased with the lack of policing and inability for you to secure padded chairs.  Maybe they'll bequeath some consolation perk on you.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 31, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> At our resorts (both non-names) each & every chair/lounge has a cushion.





timeos2 said:


> I'm very surprised that a quality resort would not have enough cushions for the pool chairs. In fact I would expect them to have TWO per chair so one can be cleaned while the other is in use.  That is how it is done at resorts (to remain unnamed) I am personally familiar with.



How convenient to keep those resort "unnamed". No way for anyone to really substantiate your claims. However, if you are disclosing all your resorts in the list of resorts in your profile, then these resorts would be Cypress Pointe and The Cove at Yarmouth (Which I would consider DRI a brand name). Looking at the photos of the pools at these resorts on Trip Adviser, some of which were just uploaded this month, I don't see very many cushions on the chairs. Now perhaps there are some that were not in the photographs, but that is a stretch from "each and every chair".

In fact, if you take a look at the photos, many of the loungers appear to be those horrible plastic ones with the nylon mesh instead of the slightly better steel ones with vinyl straps.


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## AwayWeGo (Jan 31, 2012)

*Brand Name, Shmand Name.*




dioxide45 said:


> However, if you are disclosing all your resorts in the list of resorts in your profile, then these resorts would be Cypress Pointe and The Cove at Yarmouth (Which I would consider DRI a brand name).


DRI is not calling the shots at either of those timeshares.  

True, the DRI timeshare sellers have been known to fuzz over the reality that independent owner-controlled HOAs are in charge, but it's still a reality. 

You could look it up. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## KathyPet (Jan 31, 2012)

Umm, while I would like to believe the best of people I really can't see any reason to do so here.  There are no signs or information of any sort that indicates that you can "rent" the pads for the chairs.  There was nothing in the information in the villa and while the towel hut does have snorkel gear and the spongee type pool floats for rent there is no indication on the list of items for rent they rent the chair pads.  The pads I saw these folks carrying were old and faded and did not look like they were purchased.  I cannot imagine that there is a store on St. Kitts to purchase anything like this.  They were carrying the pads up the stairs to their unit on the second floor of their building so they were not returning them to another pool area.

Nope I really am very sure that were "hoarding" them.

PS: went to Marshall's for dinner along with Serendipity, the Beach House (twice) and Royal Palm Restaurant at Oattley's Plantation Inn.  Great food at all of them!


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## MALC9990 (Feb 1, 2012)

Smooth Air said:


> Kathy,
> I think I saw the "pad snatching couple" at Ocean Pointe when we were there last April! While they did not "take" things up to their villa, they always arrived ( she would dispatch him) at the Sailfish pool at 7:00AM. He would "claim" 6 chairs...always the same spot....on the west side of the pool, facing east, in front of the main lobby. He would toss books, towels, t-shirts on each chair, place plastic noodles & flip flops under the chairs. It was quite unbelievable to watch. Then "his" chairs would remain unoccupied ( except for all of thier junk) until around noon when she would show up.
> 
> This "entitled" couple had 2 little kids. The kids never sat on the chairs, the father never sat on the chairs...the kids ran around and he chased the kids. Meanwhile, she luxuriated in the sun, sunbathing....6 chairs for one woman. The chairs remained "claimed" by these 2 until the end of the day. One day it rained and they were not there when the rain started. They were often "not there" throughout the day. They did not come back to pick up their stuff. I don't know what happened.
> ...


I have my own solution to these "bed blockers" - I just move their stuff and take over the sun beds they seemed to think they own. The only thing that reserves a sun bed is a bum that is sat on it.


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## MALC9990 (Feb 1, 2012)

KathyPet said:


> Umm, while I would like to believe the best of people I really can't see any reason to do so here.  There are no signs or information of any sort that indicates that you can "rent" the pads for the chairs.  There was nothing in the information in the villa and while the towel hut does have snorkel gear and the spongee type pool floats for rent there is no indication on the list of items for rent they rent the chair pads.  The pads I saw these folks carrying were old and faded and did not look like they were purchased.  I cannot imagine that there is a store on St. Kitts to purchase anything like this.  They were carrying the pads up the stairs to their unit on the second floor of their building so they were not returning them to another pool area.
> 
> Nope I really am very sure that were "hoarding" them.
> 
> PS: went to Marshall's for dinner along with Serendipity, the Beach House (twice) and Royal Palm Restaurant at Oattley's Plantation Inn.  Great food at all of them!



Thanks for the recommendations on places to eat.


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## m61376 (Feb 1, 2012)

John-
I'd love all resorts to have chair cushions, but in my experience most don't. We were at Harborside last summer and their hard chaises around most of their pools were a big step down from Marriott's strappy chairs. And there wasn't a cushion anywhere, even for handicapped use (I asked). My Mom was with us, and I landed up buying a blow up air raft (and had to blow it up by mouth- no air hose available to guests) so she could lie on the lounges, since with rheumatoid arthritis those lounges were impossible. The only solution they had offered were extra towels. No one even mentioned the pool area with the textilene chaises that we found mid week. But we had a great time anyway, and didn't find it necessary to bash Starwood for their choice of chaises.

I am glad for you that your resorts have double sets of cushions for everyone. I'm venturing to guess though that there are amenities lacking that you'd like to see perhaps (and maybe where Marriott chose to put those MF dollars), or that others could be hypercritical of if they wanted to be. But as long as you enjoy your trips and Kathy enjoys hers, despite the lack of cushions (or the despite the cushion hogs in this case) then all is good.


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## Smooth Air (Feb 1, 2012)

MAL,
I love it!  

What do the "absentee bums" say when they return? 
Where do you put their stuff? 
Any confrontation?

Smooth Air


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## ampaholic (Feb 1, 2012)

Hey, wait I thought we were boycotting the Marriott boards in February???

And here John goes and makes a good point - *"there are statistically fewer cushion hogs at 'no name' resorts since more of the 'self entitled snobs' ie 'cushion hogs' gravitate to the name brands".*

 

:rofl:


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## GregT (Feb 1, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> And here John goes and makes a good point - *"there are statistically fewer cushion hogs at 'no name' resorts since more of the 'self entitled snobs' ie 'cushion hogs' gravitate to the name brands".*
> 
> 
> 
> :rofl:



Rick, that's funny.....it sure would be tough to boycott a response to that one if it was posted.


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## rrlongwell (Feb 1, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> Hey, wait I thought we were boycotting the Marriott boards in February??? ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## AwayWeGo (Feb 1, 2012)

*TUG-BBS Boycott?  Who Knew ?*




ampaholic said:


> I thought we were boycotting the Marriott boards in February?


Shux, I thought we were boycotting the Marriott _timeshares_ in February. 

No problem.  I wasn't planning on going to 1 this month anyhow. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## ampaholic (Feb 1, 2012)

AwayWeGo said:


> Shux, I thought we were boycotting the Marriott _timeshares_ in February.



Oh, Alan you made me laugh out loud with that crack

:hysterical: :rofl: :hysterical:


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## Smooth Air (Feb 1, 2012)

"self entitled snobs ...gravitate to name brands"
Wow! That's quite the sweeping stereotype! 

While there are a few "self entitled snobs" at Ocean Pointe (my home resort), I must say that we have met some wonderful poeple (other Marriott Owners) at Ocean Pointe. I would never describe them as "self entitled snobs".

If we think this through, I guess you are not saying that '"All Marriott Owners are self entitled snobs." What you seem to be saying is that "All self entitled snobs gravitate to name brands". So...no "self entitled snobs" where you own?


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## ampaholic (Feb 1, 2012)

Smooth Air said:


> "self entitled snobs ...gravitate to name brands"
> Wow! That's quite the sweeping stereotype!
> 
> While there are a few "self entitled snobs" at Ocean Pointe (my home resort), I must say that we have met some wonderful poeple (other Marriott Owners) at Ocean Pointe. I would never describe them as "self entitled snobs".
> ...



It has been my experience that the human population is composed of:

78% Loving, helpful, non self absorbed, hard working people.
4% self absorbed, self entitled, selfish, snobbish, get others to do the work types. 
18% in flux - who play both sides depending on the circumstances.

The 4% "dark side" people can blend in with the other 96% at will - and might pop up anywhere - even poolside at a Marriott resort or at a resort where I own.

Or here 

(PS the numbers I mentioned are from a lecture on business ethics at UC Berkeley)


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## wvacations (Feb 1, 2012)

Kind of on one of the subjects of this tread on human nature. This summer at Marriott Ko Olina we went down for a day at the pool at 8:00 am. Lots of chairs with towels draped over them but very few people. We found 2 unclaimed chairs behind 2 other poolside chairs. We had our coffee. Then we had lunch and no one ever sat in the poolside chairs. About 2:00 pm the couple that "claimed" the chairs before 8:00am buy placing a towel and pair of shoes on each chair, came and took possession of the pool side chairs. They stayed 45 minutes, took their shoes but left the towels draped over the chairs, left and never came back. Fact is some people are just plain self centered and rude. 

If you have been to Ko Olina on June, many people cannot find chairs by the pool, yet many are empty but "claimed" with a towel. It just irritates me how rude people can be.


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## cruisin (Feb 1, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Sue - Being serious now you are assuming that my so called crusade against Marriott (it is not by the way - I suspect ALL developer controlled resorts - name or no name it doesn't matter) is somehow wrong (as in non-factual). I see the statements such as "only a XXX brand timeshare can give me quality" as being the misstatements as I know for a fact it isn't true.
> 
> A recent thread here in the Marriott section is a great example. A question was raised by an owner about what can be on the table when the management is up for renewal.  Some who apparently are blinded by a name jump in to say "you can't ask for lower fees (and other things) or Marriott will walk away!". THAT is a dangerous and totally incorrect statement. One too prevalent when only one view - that the mothership corporation, whoever that may be, is looking out for the members - is allowed to be the only voice in the woods.
> 
> ...



I am very negative about Marriott in the future. I had 182 nights in 2011 between stays and credit card, obviously a platinum member, own a number of Marriotts, and the last 5 years have been horrible for this brand in my opinion, loss of rewards, raising maintenence fees, raising points for hotel stays, the new points system that allows them in the future to build cheaper resorts at higher point totals and sell the points at beautiful, established lower point resorts with no inventory, but gives the buyer a false promise. I have no confidence in the future of a system designed for the  purpose of getting rid of undesirable, unsold inventory. It has been a rapid succession of devaluing what I own, get and use. I will still stay at Marriott over most places, but the last 5 years blew any myth I had that Marriott was different. It would probably be really depressing to look back 5 years ago and compare it to where we are today,  and have the same thing happen over the next 5 years. What will HOA fees be? How many points for an hotel stay, maybe double the skim? Now they have spun off what they probably view as an anchor. Marriott was Great in so many ways, resorts , rewards, vacation packages etc, still good, but the direction is horrible. 

I would expect chairs with cushions at A Marriott resort, but I would also suspect with the "new" Marriott,  that the timeshare pays a premium to the hotel for the St Kitts services. I have not looked at the breakdown of the resort expenses, but you can tell from my post that I do not think Marriott and their BOD are looking out for the owners


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## dioxide45 (Feb 1, 2012)

cruisin said:


> I would expect chairs with cushions at A Marriott resort, but I would also suspect with the "new" Marriott,  that the timeshare pays a premium to the hotel for the St Kitts services. I have not looked at the breakdown of the resort expenses, but you can tell from my post that I do not think Marriott and their BOD are looking out for the owners



This is something to remember. The property in St Kitts is a shared property with a privately owned hotel. I believe the hotel is responsible for the maintenance of the pools? So in order to have cushions for all the chairs, the HOA would also have to get buy in from the hotel ownership/management to purchase these goods. I would not expect the HOA to have to cover all of the expense of these items.

This also shows that when people make a statement, they don't always know all the facts...


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## dioxide45 (Feb 1, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Sue - Being serious now you are assuming that my so called crusade against Marriott (it is not by the way - I suspect ALL developer controlled resorts - name or no name it doesn't matter) is somehow wrong (as in non-factual). I see the statements such as "only a XXX brand timeshare can give me quality" as being the misstatements as I know for a fact it isn't true.



You make this statement, but your actions speak louder. While you indicate that you have this issue with all developers, you only seem to post these statements in the Marriott forum. Doing a search in the Starwood forum, there has only been one post made by you since the beginning of October 2011. There are a number more in the Hilton forum, it appears you didn't like the iPads for all HOA members . I don't either, but that is another matter.

So while you state that your issue is with all name brands, you appear to continue to single out Marriott and Marriott owners?

I believe in being able so speak ones opinion, but lets be willing to also accept the opinions of others and not continue to belittle them.


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## MALC9990 (Feb 3, 2012)

wvacations said:


> Kind of on one of the subjects of this tread on human nature. This summer at Marriott Ko Olina we went down for a day at the pool at 8:00 am. Lots of chairs with towels draped over them but very few people. We found 2 unclaimed chairs behind 2 other poolside chairs. We had our coffee. Then we had lunch and no one ever sat in the poolside chairs. About 2:00 pm the couple that "claimed" the chairs before 8:00am buy placing a towel and pair of shoes on each chair, came and took possession of the pool side chairs. They stayed 45 minutes, took their shoes but left the towels draped over the chairs, left and never came back. Fact is some people are just plain self centered and rude.
> 
> If you have been to Ko Olina on June, many people cannot find chairs by the pool, yet many are empty but "claimed" with a towel. It just irritates me how rude people can be.



In the morning - say around 9 to 9:30 - I wait 30 to 45 mins and if the beds "claimed" by their absentee users have not been occupied then the towels are  removed - replaced by mine and then by my rear end on the bed.


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## ampaholic (Feb 3, 2012)

MALC9990 said:


> In the morning - say around 9 to 9:30 - I wait 30 to 45 mins and if the beds "claimed" by their absentee users have not been occupied then the towels are  removed - replaced by mine and then by my rear end on the bed.



What's the rest of the story - what do you do when the ones who own the towels you moved come back?

Awkward silence?

Staredown?


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## Smooth Air (Feb 3, 2012)

MAL,
And, then what? What do the "absentee bums" say/do when they return & find you sitting in "their" chairs & their stuff having been replaced by yours?
Where do you put their stuff when you remove it? On another chair? On the ground? Or, what?

Once at Ocean Pointe, a man & woman left "their" chairs & went up to their villa just as we were arriving at the Kingfish pool. They took all of their stuff with them....books, towels, bags, etc. However, a little brochure...the kind of flyer you see in newspapers....was left on one of "their" chairs. We assumed it was garbage, threw it in the garbage can, sat down & settled in. Well.... a couple of hours later that couple returned to Kingfish pool. He came over to us & said " I can't believe  you people! You took OUR chairs! We went to the villa for lunch. Then we come back and you are sitting here. We left a book on the chair so you should have known we were coming back. You have really upset my wife."
Well... we were speechless. I said "I am sorry, sir. You & your wife can sit here if you like. We will just move over there."
He just turned, angrily walked away and said "Don't bother. But you should know that you have really upset my wife". 

Can you believe that? 

What would you have done, MAL??


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## Beefnot (Feb 3, 2012)

I would have said "Sorry, you and your upset, chair-saving wife can look elsewhere for another spot."


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## Beefnot (Feb 3, 2012)

Anyone wonder, how many of our compatriots here on TUG are one of those self-entitled, inconsiderate folks being described?  Bet your bottom dollar that even some of the TUG veterans, who by all accounts may seem like great, sweet, mild-mannered people, are in fact chair-hording, pad-stealing gargoyles.  They know who they are, and maybe, just maybe, they will change their ways as a result of this thread...


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## jimf41 (Feb 3, 2012)

Smooth Air said:


> MAL,
> 
> What would you have done, MAL??



I can't speak for MAL but myself I have a personality with two sides. A mean side and a nice side. If the mean side comes out I would have,

A. Punched him in the nose
or
B. Pushed him in the pool
or
C. Kicked him in the crotch

Most often though I am able to control my emotions and the mean side stays hidden and the nice side comes out. In that case I would have just politely told him,

" Listen pal your wife is so ugly she scaring my grandchildren. She's exposing flesh that shouldn't have seen the light of day much past 1975. Take her back up to your room and stay there till I checkout."

Like I said it always pays to be polite and nice to people.


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## Passepartout (Feb 3, 2012)

I'd have said, "Gosh, I didn't see anything with your name on it. If I had I would have selected another seat. How was lunch?"

Or depending on the situation, I might say "[Resort name] puts these lounges here for guests/owners use. Not to store unknown passerby's belongings. These were being used for storage and there are places for that".

'Course the response might hinge on whether the confronter is a 90 y.o. pushing a walker or some buff 25 y.o. clutching a long-neck Bud.

For those who want to be able to go for lunch or swim or restroom etc. and still want to 'save a seat', how about using one of those little plastic or cardboard clock faces with moveable hands that say 'Will Return At:'. People use them regularly in Europe for parking when there is a time limit for a space. Set your return time, put it on the seat to show it isn't abandoned and then come back when you say you will. If it's reasonable, I think people will honor it.

I am of course just speculating here. I don't go to resorts big enough that one has to jockey for a lounge and assume that a scrap of paper or towel will hold it indefinitely. If someone's bum is in it, it's occupied. If not, it's available.

The whole thing sounds like adults playing kindergarten games to me.

Jim


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## SueDonJ (Feb 3, 2012)

I try not to let it aggravate me too much and will try to find an empty lounge chair.  But if there are no "unsaved" lounges then I ask an employee to help me out.  That way if/when the Entitled come back loaded for bear, I can just say, "that employee over there helped me, maybe s/he can help you, too."


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## aka Julie (Feb 3, 2012)

I would have told him what makes them think they are entitled to "save" chairs and have them unoccupied for the majority of the day.  They don't own the chairs.  This is a problem which the property needs to address aggressively IMO.  They don't want to antagonize guests so they look the other way.

At properties where this is a problem, there should be an insert in the "welcome" packet outlining the pool chair policy and that it will be strictly enforced.  That way when their items are removed, they can't complain. 

Rude, entitled people can be found at any resort, but they know 9 times out of 10 they will get away with their behavior.


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## ampaholic (Feb 3, 2012)

Once you have been in "real" life and death situations I think you can see the sillyness of opening a "Hatfield/McCoy" situation with a perfect stranger.

Just say "I saved this spot before you checked in, didn't you get the email?"

or after reading this thread I might well say:

"Hey, are you one of those "self absorbed snobs" mentioned on TUG? and then laugh.


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## RBERR1 (Feb 3, 2012)

I will say that the resorts in Hilton Head during summer seem to handle this well.  If the employees do not see anyone there for a period of time they leave a note and then if still noone the employees remove the stuff.

When the other people come back and complain to you, I just tell them to talk to the man with the id tag right over there.


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## Smooth Air (Feb 3, 2012)

Thanks for all of your replies!
He looked to be older....maybe 20 years older....not using a walker but not "...some buff 25 y.o clutching a long-neck Bud" (nice visual). He & his wife looked really unhappy. I wondered if perhaps they were dealing with some recent personal loss or tragedy or if they were always that unhappy. Fortunately, we never did see them again @ OP after that week. However, we did have the awkwardness of encountering them a couple of times throughout the week.

At Ocean Pointe, they do include a reminder with the check-in materials that are given to each guest upon check-in to the effect that if you leave your chair unoccupied, Loss Prevention will remove your belongings. Ocean Pointe Management steadfastly maintains that they regularly enforce this policy but they do not. People know that. That's why they leave their stuff there.


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## ampaholic (Feb 3, 2012)

In a post 911 world it is adventurous to leave anything "laying around".

If you have a really mischievous nature you could say to the returning snobs

"Some government types were here nosing around, what exactly was in that stuff you left here?"


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## alexadeparis (Feb 3, 2012)

Bottom line is that one person is not any more entitled to use/save/hog a pool lounge than the next person. If I see a chair that looks unoccupied but has a pool towel or other personal item, I will very loudly and annoyingly say "Is anyone using this chair?" If no one answers that is in the pool or in line at the snack bar, etc, I simply neatly organize anything that clearly doesn't belong to the hotel, and stick it somewhere nearby. 

A hotel pool towel would simply be placed on the ground. If it was a beach towel someone brought, I fold it neatly and stick it on the landscaping ledge, over the fence, whatever. Ditto for any other personal items. 

I am not going to disrespect their personal items, but they are taking a chance that they could lose those items by leaving them unattended for so long, not all people are as honest as I am. 

You must be present to "occupy" a pool chair. Period. It's not complicated. These chair hoggers sure wouldn't like it if the situation was reversed and they came down and found 10 people using the pool and 100 chairs "saved". First come, first served. 

That being said the only time it is acceptable to put your personal items in a "spot" to save it is during Chicago winters when you have dug a parking spot out after a snowstorm (those tuggers from here know what I mean). Those that steal those spots risk their cars being keyed.

If someone came up to me and said I took their pool chair and pointed at their personal items, I would simply point out that I called out before moving their stuff to ask if the chair was in use and no one responded. If they still have a problem, they can take it to the resort management, which of course they won't do. There's no way thay they are going to be able to justify leaving their stuff on a pool chair for hours on end without being present to use it. You can't ask for relief from the authorities if you don't have "clean hands". They were in the wrong to start off with.


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## drjkn (Feb 3, 2012)

jimf41 said:


> I can't speak for MAL but myself I have a personality with two sides. A mean side and a nice side. If the mean side comes out I would have,
> 
> A. Punched him in the nose
> or
> ...


JIM .. JUST HOPE THAT YOU NEVER STAY AT A RESORT THAT I AM STAYING AT. IF YOU DID A, B OR C TO ANYONE..THEY WOULD BE CALLING THE PADDY WAGON FOR YOU.. I AM 6'1, 285 AND USE TO BOX PROFESSIONLY. 
SO JUST BE NICE TO EVERY ONE AND TREAT THEM LIKE YOU WANT TO BE TREATED.


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## ampaholic (Feb 3, 2012)

drjkn said:


> JIM .. JUST HOPE THAT YOU NEVER STAY AT A RESORT THAT I AM STAYING AT. IF YOU DID A, B OR C TO ANYONE..THEY WOULD BE CALLING THE PADDY WAGON FOR YOU.. I AM 6'1, 285 AND USE TO BOX PROFESSIONLY.
> SO JUST BE NICE TO EVERY ONE AND TREAT THEM LIKE YOU WANT TO BE TREATED.



I think bragging about how much sunlight you block and what you used to do for a living is not real productive in this thread - unless you are trying to get it closed?

Besides unless you are the world champion boxer - you know dang well there is always someone who can "outbox" you


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## Beefnot (Feb 3, 2012)

drjkn said:


> JIM .. JUST HOPE THAT YOU NEVER STAY AT A RESORT THAT I AM STAYING AT. IF YOU DID A, B OR C TO ANYONE..THEY WOULD BE CALLING THE PADDY WAGON FOR YOU.. I AM 6'1, 285 AND USE TO BOX PROFESSIONLY.
> SO JUST BE NICE TO EVERY ONE AND TREAT THEM LIKE YOU WANT TO BE TREATED.



All that weight and boxing skills ain't gonna help you if (C) happens.  Matter of fact, immediately thereafter you would feel all of 5'2, 140 in heels.  And perhaps even with (A) if in your former life you had a glass jaw.

P.S. What was your record by the way?


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## jimf41 (Feb 3, 2012)

drjkn said:


> JIM .. JUST HOPE THAT YOU NEVER STAY AT A RESORT THAT I AM STAYING AT. IF YOU DID A, B OR C TO ANYONE..THEY WOULD BE CALLING THE PADDY WAGON FOR YOU.. I AM 6'1, 285 AND USE TO BOX PROFESSIONLY.
> SO JUST BE NICE TO EVERY ONE AND TREAT THEM LIKE YOU WANT TO BE TREATED.



DRJKN,

I knew someone would come along and drive home the point for me. The thing about confronting people is that you never know who you are confronting. It's very annoying to most of us that people go to resorts and feel that they can do whatever they like and deny the use of resort amenities to others just in case they might want to use them "sometime" during the day.

Although I actually meant to convey the idea that maybe the person they confronted might be me, you actually said it much more eloquently. I certainly wouldn't want to get in your face over a disagreement over a pool chair. I doubt many other TUGGERS would either. 

The argument about hogging pool chairs has been going on since I joined TUG and I think it will keep going on forever. The guy that confronted SMOOTH AIR was wrong. He was the guy my post was aimed at. I was hoping some folks that act like that would read it, take a breath and say wait a minute, maybe that's who said he'd throw me in the pool. Now they have to worry about you too.

So DRJKN, if somebody confronts you like I did step back, take a breath and walk away. You're a big enough guy to do that. That's what SMOOTH AIR did although I don't think I would have offered up my chair so quickly. SMOOTH AIR  had a anecdote to relate on TUG and went on with his vacation. The other guy is probably still fuming because he just couldn't step back, breathe and think things through for a second or two.

BTW, I see you have only 30 posts. Stick around awhile and you'll find out that I have a funny but sometimes strange sense of humor.


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## Smooth Air (Feb 3, 2012)

DRJKN/Jim:
You are both right!
DRJKN, you have to "know" Jim to see the humor in his post. 

I like alexadeparis's approach: "Is anybody using these chairs?" I may try that one next time. If more of us did that, then people wld stop "hogging". Bottom line: Most of us are too nice. In retrospect, I was way too nice to "guy with brochure and unhappy wife".


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## Beefnot (Feb 3, 2012)

jimf41 said:


> DRJKN,
> 
> I knew someone would come along and drive home the point for me. The thing about confronting people is that you never know who you are confronting. It's very annoying to most of us that people go to resorts and feel that they can do whatever they like and deny the use of resort amenities to others just in case they might want to use them "sometime" during the day.
> 
> ...




I frequently see people quoting someone's number of posts.  He's (I sure hope it's a he, else he is likely one big and UGLY woman) only got 30 but has been a member since 2008.  Just because he hasn't posted doesn't mean he cannot read.


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## Beefnot (Feb 3, 2012)

drjkn said:


> JIM .. JUST HOPE THAT YOU NEVER STAY AT A RESORT THAT I AM STAYING AT. IF YOU DID A, B OR C TO ANYONE..THEY WOULD BE CALLING THE PADDY WAGON FOR YOU.. I AM 6'1, 285 AND USE TO BOX PROFESSIONLY.
> SO JUST BE NICE TO EVERY ONE AND TREAT THEM LIKE YOU WANT TO BE TREATED.



Oh, and does your response support my suggestion that there are indeed TUGgers who are inconsiderate, pad-hoarding, self-entitled summanamitches?  Or were you just taking offense to the hypothetical confrontationalism you perceived in jim41's response?


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## DKT (Feb 3, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> I try not to let it aggravate me too much and will try to find an empty lounge chair.  But if there are no "unsaved" lounges then I ask an employee to help me out.  That way if/when the Entitled come back loaded for bear, I can just say, "that employee over there helped me, maybe s/he can help you, too."




This is how I also usually handle it.  Or sometimes if I am not in the mood to deal with a rude person, I just say "oh no really, when I got here there was nothing on these chairs" and then smile....what can they say to that...

Denise


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## scrapngen (Feb 3, 2012)

alexadeparis said:


> Bottom line is that one person is not any more entitled to use/save/hog a pool lounge than the next person. If I see a chair that looks unoccupied but has a pool towel or other personal item, I will very loudly and annoyingly say "Is anyone using this chair?" If no one answers that is in the pool or in line at the snack bar, etc, I simply neatly organize anything that clearly doesn't belong to the hotel, and stick it somewhere nearby.
> 
> A hotel pool towel would simply be placed on the ground. If it was a beach towel someone brought, I fold it neatly and stick it on the landscaping ledge, over the fence, whatever. Ditto for any other personal items.
> 
> ...



I pretty much agree with you - I will also check with anyone in nearby chairs, then will look around IN the pool, and of course assuming that I've already verified no use in well over an hour, will loudly ask - then will move their stuff. (Trying to find a nice, clean, dry spot for it  ) 

My main concern with personally removing others' stuff is that sometimes those chairs that are supposedly unoccupied are actually from people like my family who play in the pool for over an hour at a time before coming out for air. However, we usually try to only occupy 2 chairs for the 4 of us somewhere toward a corner or back (preferably shady) area. We don't always know we're not occupying for an hour. BUT, we are in the pool - not at a bar or villa or lunch, etc.!! And hopefully we are cognizant enough to hear someone loudly ask if we're around. :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:


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## DKT (Feb 3, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> I frequently see people quoting someone's number of posts.  He's (I sure hope it's a he, else he is likely one big and UGLY woman) only got 30 but has been a member since 2008.  Just because he hasn't posted doesn't mean he cannot read.



Count me in as one of those who can read, but does not post alot....member since 2007.   I have to say I do enjoy everyone's humor....Its nice to laugh after a long day.  Sorry, but I sometimes even laugh when someone is not trying to be funny. :rofl: 

As for the pool chairs at MFC we usually don't have a problem. My only complaint and its a tiny one is the chairs that sit in the water. If it just happens to be a big group, they tend to take over that area of the pool. I just wish the chairs were not in the water.  

Just to add, I never move personal items only when there are just towels..

Denise


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## jimf41 (Feb 3, 2012)

You're right we don't have a problem now at MFC but the resort is only half built. I'm a little worried about down the road when they double the amount of units. There will be a small upper pool and a playground a little farther back but I don't see either as being able to handle twice the volume.

Fortunately MFC is the type of resort that most people don't hang around at every day. Folks are out and about at some of the beaches, shopping, day trips to ST John or other islands. Last February I'd say the pool area was at it's max comfortable capacity. You could get a chair with some shade by 9:30 or 10:00 and without shade up until about noon. Same for the beach.

When the number of units goes from the current 110 or so to about 212 I think the pool arrival times are going to inch closer to 8:00. Still that's a lot better than some resorts.


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## ampaholic (Feb 4, 2012)

OK I give what is MFC short for?

I think I'm going to start a thread about a pet peeve even worse than cushion hogging - using abbreviations in a snobbish way: not at least once spelling out what they abbreviate.

   

Please don't take me totally seriously - or totally flippantly. :whoopie:


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## MALC9990 (Feb 4, 2012)

My peeve is not with someone who takes a sunbed, uses it and then perhaps goes off for lunch or to the pool or beach for an hour or two. Those beds will be obviously in use and occupied. My peeve is with those who send someone down to the pool at 7am and who places a book or a tube of sunscreen on 4 or some times 6 sunbeds - always the ones in the prime spot and then they are not used for hours and hours. Then at about 2pm a few ladies will appear having been to the spa for a facial or a manicure or whatever. They then use the beds for an hour before departing again.

These are the ones I target and occupy. When someone does eventually appear, I just say that the beds were unoccupied when I came down at 9 am and I and wife have been there for hours - so how could they be their sunbeds.


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## Beefnot (Feb 4, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> OK I give what is MFC short for?
> 
> I think I'm going to start a thread about a pet peeve even worse than cushion hogging - using abbreviations in a snobbish way: not at least once spelling out what they abbreviate.
> 
> ...



If you look at the resorts listed under DKT and jim41, you will figure it out.


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## ampaholic (Feb 4, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> If you look at the resorts listed under DKT and jim41, you will figure it out.



Ah, man couldn't you just tell me, now I have to look at their "bio" to figure out the lingo?

Scratch that, I'll try again:

I'm 6'1" 285 and I used to box .... uh, wait ... never-mind, my boxing record was 0-1 (tried it once at age 12 - didn't like getting hit). Of course later on at Parris Island I had to get over that aversion - Semper Fi.


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## jimf41 (Feb 4, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> OK I give what is MFC short for?
> 
> I think I'm going to start a thread about a pet peeve even worse than cushion hogging - using abbreviations in a snobbish way: not at least once spelling out what they abbreviate.
> 
> ...



I apologize. Abbreviations used to be my pet peeve also but it's one of those things you just have to get used to on TUG. Using the II (Interval International) abbreviations is OK ( I have no idea what OK stands for) as long as you reference them in parenthesis as I just did. MFC (Marriott Frenchmans Cove) is Marriott Frenchmans Cove. 

When I was in HS (high school) I took a typing class and made it up to 43 WPM (words per minute). I have since completely lost that skill and now use only the middle finger on my right hand. Occasionally I will use my thumb for the space bar. 

Currently complete laziness is my only excuse for using abbreviations.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 4, 2012)

ampaholic said:


> OK I give what is MFC short for?
> 
> I think I'm going to start a thread about a pet peeve even worse than cushion hogging - using abbreviations in a snobbish way: not at least once spelling out what they abbreviate.
> 
> ...



MFC = Marriott's Frenchman's Cove (in St Thomas USVI). I think many people are so used to using the II codes when speaking of their resorts. Then of course there are those that don't use the II code, such as MOC for Maui Ocean Club, whose II code is MMO.


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## ampaholic (Feb 4, 2012)

jimf41 said:


> I apologize. Abbreviations used to be my pet peeve also but it's one of those things you just have to get used to on TUG. Using the II (Interval International) abbreviations is OK ( I have no idea what OK stands for) as long as you reference them in parenthesis as I just did. MFC (Marriott Frenchmans Cove) is Marriott Frenchmans Cove.
> 
> When I was in HS (high school) I took a typing class and made it up to 43 WPM (words per minute). *I have since completely lost that skill and now use only the middle finger on my right hand. *Occasionally I will use my thumb for the space bar.
> 
> Currently complete laziness is my only excuse for using abbreviations.



Thanks I won't forget MFC now.

Where I live there are scores of drivers who apparently also have lost their skills at communicating and now just shortcut with the middle finger on their right hand.

:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:


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## DKT (Feb 4, 2012)

jimf41 said:


> You're right we don't have a problem now at MFC but the resort is only half built. I'm a little worried about down the road when they double the amount of units. There will be a small upper pool and a playground a little farther back but I don't see either as being able to handle twice the volume.
> 
> Fortunately MFC is the type of resort that most people don't hang around at every day. Folks are out and about at some of the beaches, shopping, day trips to ST John or other islands. Last February I'd say the pool area was at it's max comfortable capacity. You could get a chair with some shade by 9:30 or 10:00 and without shade up until about noon. Same for the beach.
> 
> When the number of units goes from the current 110 or so to about 212 I think the pool arrival times are going to inch closer to 8:00. Still that's a lot better than some resorts.




I agree, it will be interesting to see how everything shakes out once the resort is full.  

We are pretty spoiled there, so I am a little nervous about how we will like Aruba this summer. 

Denise


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## suzannesimon (Feb 4, 2012)

The only time I've seen Frenchman's Cove pool near capacity is on check-in/check-out days when the check-out people are still hanging around and the check-in people are waiting for rooms.  Now with the Destination Club, it might even out the crowds throughout the week.


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## MALC9990 (Feb 7, 2012)

*Selfish sun bed blockers [merged here]*

We are in our last few days at Phuket Beach Club. This morning all the prime beds by the pool had items placed on them at 06:30.  At 10:30 I moved items from 4 beds for our group.  We will see what happens. Pool rules posted by the pool state clearly no reserving beds and that items placed and left for 45 mins and beds not used will be removed.


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## dioxide45 (Feb 7, 2012)

This was thouroughly hashed out in this recent thread.


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## MALC9990 (Feb 7, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> This was thouroughly hashed out in this recent thread.



I know but could not find it. Anyway just a small victory for those who use the beds. They arrived at 11:07 and I sent them away to find another bed or two elsewhere. They probably went off to complain to management. I am now waiting for the return match.:hysterical:


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## Smooth Air (Feb 9, 2012)

MAL,
So...what happened? What did they say?


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## MALC9990 (Feb 9, 2012)

Smooth Air said:


> MAL,
> So...what happened? What did they say?



They said that every one was doing it and they were just looking for a bed - however they had placed items on the beds at before 9 am and came to use them at after 11 am. 

Anyway they never came back and this morning there was no sign of them either.

It has got quieter today with fewer people so no issue today.

I guess the return match may happen when we arrive in St Kitts in late April.


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## Smooth Air (Feb 9, 2012)

MAL,
Good to know. I am going to try your approach next time I am faced with "chair hogs".

Enjoy your last few days @ Phuket! How's the weather?


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