# [ 2013 ] Im BROKE, Stop Paying my Wyndham loan??? HELP!



## ChrisS

I bought 300,000 Wyndham points. I read the "stop paying for timeshare" article and what would happen but i simply can't afford it any more and I am in serious trouble financially. I can't sell it either... I payed an amount so large that im embarrassed to even say how much, lets just say I could have bought a 2014 Corvette. They made it sound like it was the greatest investment at the greatest location. I have researched how much I could sell my Wyndham 300,000 points for and I would not even be able to get 1/10th of what I payed anyway which apparently everyone is in the same boat. I still owe a huge sum, so I can't sell it to anyone or even give it away free, I can't pay the monthly loan and HOA fees any more. So far, I am still up to date on all my payments and wanted to check here before I dove into non payments. I know I made a big mistake and I admit that I did not do my research enough but I simply can't afford it any longer. I was wondering if I wrote the Attorney General for my state (TX) and for Nevada (Wyndham Grand Dessert), then send a letter stating I contacted the Attorney Generals, and I am starting a class action law suit for fraudulent advertising (my timeshare is not worth 1/10th of what i paid, was never that value, and it was not an investment as I was told), to give back my time share and neutralize the loan would I have a chance? Short of them taking back my timeshare, I will have to stop paying, I am going more and more into debt, my job has cut back on hours and I might even have to file Bankruptcy. I don't have a choice if they don't take it back and the loan still sticks. Any help would be greatly appreciated, I know there are so many of the same story, I tried to read as much as possible on the subject for research, but I have not read of anyone paying as much as I have so far. Thanks so much for the help.


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## Rent_Share

ChrisS said:


> I bought 300,000 Wyndham points. . . . I have researched how much I could sell my Wyndham 300,000 points for and I would not even be able to get 1/10th of what I payed anyway .


 
Your research is off assuming your paid over 50,000 you would be lucky to get $ 500 which is 1/100th of what you paid.




ChrisS said:


> I am going more and more into debt, my job has cut back on hours and I might even have to file Bankruptcy. I don't have a choice if they don't take it back and the loan still sticks.


 
Wyndham is the largest timeshare company in the World, they do not care about the better business F rating due to their sale lies and tactics, they write iron clad contracts and had you sign away your rights to anything verbally promised and limited their delivery to what was written in the contract.

That being said I would. Stop Paying, save that money for the costs associated with filing Bankruptcy if necessary. Write to Wyndham and offer to deed it back to them, based on your inability to pay. You should be willing to "prove" that there is no way humanly possible to pay the loan and the maintenance fees. Continue to work your way up through the organization to attempt to get them to take it back for free, because they are going to end up with it anyway and no more cash from you.

It somewhat depends on your other debt, if you have a lot of credit card debt, it might be advantages for you to go ahead and file bankruptcy and get rid of as much debt as you can. If you have primarily student loan debt, that will survive bankruptcy so I would just let Wyndham foreclose on the timeshare debt and work through the 7 years that will stay on your credit profile.


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## Passepartout

If you truly ARE broke, declare bankruptcy. All cases are different, but in the majority, competent counsel can get rid of 'negative assets'. It's a hit on your credit, but DOES reconcile itself in time. Probably sooner and at less cost than a foreclosure.

You can 'ask' Wyndham' to take a deed-back. Not likely they will do it without pressure, and you'll have a hard time proving that you are indigent with your payments current. If you are going to try that, stop paying for a few months, THEN offer to get current if they will absolve you of your contract and take a deed in lieu of foreclosure.

Good Luck.

We should have met before you bought. You might be driving that Corvette.

Jim


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## ronparise

Wyndham does (or at least the did) have a deed in lieu procedure. Basically you have to demonstrate to them that there is no way you can keep up the payments. You will have to provide a statement of net worth. A detailed income and expense record and copies of your bank statements

I don't know who to call or write to get the process started. My friend that started the process was contacted by Wyndham when she fell behind in payments. If it was me I'd call financial services and try to track down someone that can help

Understand though,  that by continuing to make payments your are proving to Wyndham that you can in fact, make the payments. And thats counter to what you really want to do


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## bastroum

Timeshares are generally a depreciating asset when purchased from a developer. The OP is experiencing what many people have experienced (changing economic circumstances). He can no longer afford his purchase. While no one put a gun to his head to buy, he has a point. It should be illegal to sell something for 10 times it's current value. With that said, how would any timeshares have been built without the developers pricing?

BTW...That Corvette will eventually end up in a junkyard. Everyone has priorities.


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## Rent_Share

bastroum said:


> Timeshares are generally a depreciating asset when purchased from a developer. The OP is experiencing what many people have experienced (changing economic circumstances). He can no longer afford his purchase. While no one put a gun to his head to buy, he has a point. It should be illegal to sell something for 10 times it's current value. With that said, how would any timeshares have been built without the developers pricing?
> 
> BTW...That Corvette will eventually end up in a junkyard. Everyone has priorities.


 

No it's just immoral to lie to someone and tell them it's an investment and get them to sign a contract for 100 times what they can sell oit for after the rescission period is over.  

As to the developers pricing - the pricing model is broken when 50 % or more is marketing expense  . 

Are your trying to self justify your portfolio

HGVC-Lagoon, Grand Waikikian; Marriott-DSV, DSV II, Ko Olina, MOC; Starwood-WKORV-N; SDO VRI-The Cove at Yarmouth


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## ChrisS

Thank you all for the help. I wanted to maintain the payments so I did not look like a bad person. But to be honest, Im just throwing the payments on a credit card... hence the spiraling debt. I did this so I could convince them that I have always paid my bills but can no longer do so. I was hoping for a little humanity, that I'm not a dirt bag, but from what all I've been reading, that humanity is non-existent  I guess the next decision is either full out bankruptcy or try to salvage all my other debt and pay it off and just stop paying on this timeshare. I will be able to catch up eventually that way... I just want to say that I appreciate you all helping, truly. You could just read these and move on but you have spent time to help. Have a great day.


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## bastroum

Rent_Share said:


> No it's just immoral to lie to someone and tell them it's an investment and get them to sign a contract for 100 times what they can sell oit for after the rescission period is over.
> 
> As to the developers pricing - the pricing model is broken when 50 % or more is marketing expense  .
> 
> Are your trying to self justify your portfolio
> 
> HGVC-Lagoon, Grand Waikikian; Marriott-DSV, DSV II, Ko Olina, MOC; Starwood-WKORV-N; SDO VRI-The Cove at Yarmouth



I'm in the life insurance business. In my business it is not just immoral to lie it's illegal and you can lose your license to sell and go to jail.

As for my portfolio some were bought from developers, but most were purchased between 2008-2011 for almost nothing. Like everyone else, I became wiser with experience.


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## Passepartout

ChrisS said:


> Thank you all for the help. I wanted to maintain the payments so I did not look like a bad person. But to be honest, *Im just throwing the payments on a credit card... hence the spiraling debt.* I did this so I could convince them that I have always paid my bills but can no longer do so.



Chris, this is the worst possible thing you can be doing. Simply defaulting is preferable. You are adding 20+% to a debt that is already worth 1/100th what you agreed to pay for it.

STOP BEING DUMB!

Jim


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## ronparise

Rent_Share said:


> No it's just immoral to lie to someone and tell them it's an investment and get them to sign a contract for 100 times what they can sell oit for after the rescission period is over.
> 
> As to the developers pricing - the pricing model is broken when 50 % or more is marketing expense  .
> 
> Are your trying to self justify your portfolio
> 
> HGVC-Lagoon, Grand Waikikian; Marriott-DSV, DSV II, Ko Olina, MOC; Starwood-WKORV-N; SDO VRI-The Cove at Yarmouth



When I signed a Wyndham contract they also had me sign a series of disclaimers, one of which had me agree that I was not buying for any income or investment purpose.  Wyndham at least, is very careful not to present their product as an investment.

I think we could live with 50% marketing expense if the resale value held at the other 50%. but it doesnt so I agree with your point, the model is broken. 

But none of this discussion helps the op today

I think the best advice is to negotiate a deed in lieu of foreclosure if this debt is the difference between making it at his new income level or not.  Or bankruptcy if this is but one of several debts he is in trouble with.


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## SMHarman

Passepartout said:


> You can 'ask' Wyndham' to take a deed-back. Not likely they will do it without pressure, and you'll have a hard time proving that you are indigent with your payments current. If you are going to try that, stop paying for a few months, THEN offer to get current if they will absolve you of your contract and take a deed in lieu of foreclosure.





ronparise said:


> Wyndham does (or at least the did) have a deed in lieu procedure. Basically you have to demonstrate to them that there is no way you can keep up the payments. You will have to provide a statement of net worth. A detailed income and expense record and copies of your bank statements
> 
> I don't know who to call or write to get the process started. My friend that started the process was contacted by Wyndham when she fell behind in payments. If it was me I'd call financial services and try to track down someone that can help





ronparise said:


> I think the best advice is to negotiate a deed in lieu of foreclosure if this debt is the difference between making it at his new income level or not.  Or bankruptcy if this is but one of several debts he is in trouble with.



That's your best way out.  You have a mortgage on the timeshare 'asset'.  If you stop paying that mortgage they need to foreclose on you.  That is an expensive process.  Hence they take the deed in lieu of forclosure to achieve the same objective for less cost.

This will impact your credit so make sure any other credit tasks you want to achive (refinance home, lease car) are done before the DILOF is commenced.


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## channimal

what happened before ..and poor decisions are water under the bridge. No sense in trying to argue/defend the relative/perceived values of timeshares.


At this point, for the original poster, contact a bankruptcy lawyer.  Get good legal advice and be honest with your lawyer. It sounds like the timeshare is just one element of your current financial problems.

best of luck to you!


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## Rent_Share

bastroum said:


> I'm in the life insurance business. In my business it is not just immoral to lie it's illegal and you can lose your license to sell and go to jail.
> 
> As for my portfolio some were bought from developers, but most were purchased between 2008-2011 for almost nothing. Like everyone else, I became wiser with experience.


 
They train their sales liars to stretch the truth, go to one of their recruiting events, they even lie during tat process


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## bastroum

Rent_Share said:


> They train their sales liars to stretch the truth, go to one of their recruiting events, they even lie during tat process



Fraud is the intentional deception for personal gain. It is a crime. Although this is off the point of the OP, I still think it is fraud to sell a timeshare for 10X it's value.

I hope the OP is able to deed back his timeshare and work his way out of his financial problems in time. He has received good advice not to make anymore payments and not to put any payments on credit cards. 

Good Luck.


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## VacationForever

bastroum said:


> Fraud is the intentional deception for personal gain. It is a crime. Although this is off the point of the OP, I still think it is fraud to sell a timeshare for 10X it's value.
> 
> Good Luck.



Which value?  The issue is the building is not free.  The open market may sell a week for $1 but in reality the value is closer to 50% of developers' price, the other 50% going to marketing cost.  It is not fraudulent simply because the same week can be picked up for a fraction of developers' price.


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## e.bram

*Mass TS law*

This is Mass law

Section 5. (a) The court, upon finding as a matter of law that a time-share contract or contract clause was unconscionable at the time the contract was made, may refuse to enforce such contract, may enforce the remainder of the contract without the unconscionable clause, or may limit the application of any such unconscionable clause in order to avoid an unconscionable result.

(b) Whenever it is claimed, or appears to said court, that such contract or contract clause is unconscionable, the court shall afford the parties a reasonable opportunity to present evidence as to:

(1) the commercial setting of the negotiations;

(2) whether a party has knowingly taken advantage of the inability of the other party reasonably to protect his interests by reason of physical or mental infirmity, illiteracy, or inability to understand the language of the agreement or similar factors;

(3) the effect and purpose of the contract or clause; and

(4) if a sale, any gross disparity, at the time of contracting, between the amount charged for the time-share and the value of the time-share measured by the price at which similar time-shares were readily obtainable, but a disparity between the contract price and the value of the time-share measured by the price at which a similar time-share was readily obtainable in similar transactions shall not, of itself, render the contract unconscionable.


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## csxjohn

e.bram said:


> This is Mass law
> 
> Section 5. (a) The court, upon finding as a matter of law that a time-share contract or contract clause was unconscionable at the time the contract was made, may refuse to enforce such contract, may enforce the remainder of the contract without the unconscionable clause, or may limit the application of any such unconscionable clause in order to avoid an unconscionable result.
> 
> (b) Whenever it is claimed, or appears to said court, that such contract or contract clause is unconscionable, the court shall afford the parties a reasonable opportunity to present evidence as to:
> 
> (1) the commercial setting of the negotiations;
> 
> (2) whether a party has knowingly taken advantage of the inability of the other party reasonably to protect his interests by reason of physical or mental infirmity, illiteracy, or inability to understand the language of the agreement or similar factors;
> 
> (3) the effect and purpose of the contract or clause; and
> 
> (4) if a sale, any gross disparity, at the time of contracting, between the amount charged for the time-share and the value of the time-share measured by the price at which similar time-shares were readily obtainable, but a disparity between the contract price and the value of the time-share measured by the price at which a similar time-share was readily obtainable in similar transactions shall not, of itself, render the contract unconscionable.




Point #4 pretty much allows anyone to sell a timeshare for as much above the price of other readily available similar units as one wants to and is able to.  (In this jurisdiction)

Legalized burglary?


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## timeos2

bastroum said:


> BTW...That Corvette will eventually end up in a junkyard. Everyone has priorities.



Not necessarily. In watching our 1973 Corvette travel since our ownership ended it appears it will live on virtually forever. We owned it for over a decade and sold it for more than twice what we paid. We thought we did great (and still do). 

Fast forward nearly 25 years and the same car recently go it's 5th owner and the new owner just paid 10x what we bought it for!  Unlike timeshare a good car, especially Corvettes or other classics, can, with proper care, not only keep their value but actually appreciate!  

The OP would have been miles ahead with the Corvette vs the totally wasted purchase of a retail timeshare.


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## bastroum

timeos2 said:


> Not necessarily. In watching our 1973 Corvette travel since our ownership ended it appears it will live on virtually forever. We owned it for over a decade and sold it for more than twice what we paid. We thought we did great (and still do).
> 
> Fast forward nearly 25 years and the same car recently go it's 5th owner and the new owner just paid 10x what we bought it for!  Unlike timeshare a good car, especially Corvettes or other classics, can, with proper care, not only keep their value but actually appreciate!
> 
> The OP would have been miles ahead with the Corvette vs the totally wasted purchase of a retail timeshare.



I'm glad you had such good luck with your Corvette. The best information I could find is the following. Of the 305,000 Corvettes produced between 1973 and 1979 only 10,000 to 30,000 are probably still around. Therefore if you took great care, spent a lot of money on maintenance and didn't drive it very much you are correct. However, for 90% of the people that bought that vehicle it is in the junkyard.


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## alexan56

*Wyndham Help*

This is my friend's situation. She lives in Venezuela and "purchased" a 150k wyndham account (in Las Vegas). She recently got into some debt and has cancelled her Credit card (Aug 15). Will wyndham come after her? As she is overseas and doesnt mind the bad credit.


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## Passepartout

Just a wild guess here, because every situation is different, and frankly I don't know that we've ever heard back from someone who defaulted internationally.

My gut feeling is that other than cancelling the ability to book vacations, and a flag to keep them from buying more, I don't think that the U.S credit agencies maintain files on people outside thee U.S. It won't affect her ability to travel to the US, because credit is not something Customs and Immigration check when a foreign national person enters the US.

Eventually, Wyndham will foreclose and take back the ownership and sell it to someone else. This may take some time (maybe years) and your friend will owe big money on paper, but there is probably no chance of collecting it from her- and they know that.

Jim


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## Sandy

ChrisS, 

You also might want to read this thread: About to Start Foreclosure Process (Wyndham)  http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231584

I did not read through the posts, and do not know if they will help you. However, it might give you some insight on what another person is doing. Looks like it is at least 5 pages long...


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## alexan56

Passepartout said:


> Just a wild guess here, because every situation is different, and frankly I don't know that we've ever heard back from someone who defaulted internationally.
> 
> My gut feeling is that other than cancelling the ability to book vacations, and a flag to keep them from buying more, I don't think that the U.S credit agencies maintain files on people outside thee U.S. It won't affect her ability to travel to the US, because credit is not something Customs and Immigration check when a foreign national person enters the US.
> 
> Eventually, Wyndham will foreclose and take back the ownership and sell it to someone else. This may take some time (maybe years) and your friend will owe big money on paper, but there is probably no chance of collecting it from her- and they know that.
> 
> Jim


Noted and thanks. Hope they don't haunt her


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