# Little Girl that Died on Cruise Ship



## geist1223 (Jul 22, 2019)

The Father and Mother were on "The Today Show" this morning. This was a horrible tragedy. I can not image how much pain the Family is having. But what I disagree with was their totally blaming the Cruise Line and hiring an attorney that specializes in sueing Cruise Lines. This was not a bottom window. The child could not have climbed up by herself. The child had to be lifted up (by Grandfather) and placed on the edge of the open window. Whatever happened to acceptance of individual responsibility? This accident would never have happened but for the action of lifting the child up.


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## silentg (Jul 22, 2019)

Just so sad


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## VacationForever (Jul 22, 2019)

I agree that the parents and grandparent need to take responsibility.  Unfortunately the cruise line will likely settle instead of continuing with the bad publicity.


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## x3 skier (Jul 22, 2019)

As reported in the Indianapolis Star:

“Police initially said Chloe's grandfather, Salvatore Anello of Valparaiso, told officers he lost his grip while holding the girl outside a window on the Freedom of the Seas cruise ship, according to the Associated Press.”

How is the Cruise Line responsible for this?

Cheers


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## Brett (Jul 22, 2019)

x3 skier said:


> As reported in the Indianapolis Star:
> 
> “Police initially said Chloe's grandfather, Salvatore Anello of Valparaiso, told officers he lost his grip while holding the girl outside a window on the Freedom of the Seas cruise ship, according to the Associated Press.”
> 
> ...



I believe that story has changed the past couple of weeks but I agree, the cruise line will probably settle at some point


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## VacationForever (Jul 22, 2019)

Brett said:


> I believe that story has changed the past couple of weeks but I agree, the cruise line will probably settle at some point


Story changed to support the lawsuit...


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## pedro47 (Jul 22, 2019)

The Grandfather story changes every time he open his mouth.
This is a very sad story for the child parents, grandparents, family members, friends and the cruise line.
There are and there will be no winner in this lawsuit.  A very young child has loss their life because of bad judgement by someone.


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## Patri (Jul 22, 2019)

The family can spin it however they want, but they alone know the truth. They have to live with themselves and the nights may be long. It is very sad.


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## Brett (Jul 22, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> Story changed to support the lawsuit...



yes, for sure


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## easyrider (Jul 22, 2019)

Bottom line, imo, is the cruise line screwed up by providing the ability for any person to fall out of the upper deck public area to their death. Especially in an are where kids play. As soon as the person boarded the ship the cruise line is responsible for their passengers safety. In 2010 the cruise ships leaving USA ports fall under the Cruise Vessel safety act. Basically, the window should have been closed when passengers are on board because it is part of a glass wall. 

Bill


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## Luanne (Jul 22, 2019)

easyrider said:


> Bottom line, imo, is the cruise line screwed up by providing the ability for any person to fall out of the upper deck public area to their death. Especially in an are where kids play. As soon as the person boarded the ship the cruise line is responsible for their passengers safety. In 2010 the cruise ships leaving USA ports fall under the Cruise Vessel safety act. Basically, the window should have been closed when passengers are on board because it is part of a glass wall.
> 
> Bill


By that logic the cruise ship would be liable if a passenger climbed up on one of the outside railings, then fell overboard.  Are you saying that any open area like that should be somehow barricaded?  Heck, I could have fallen off the balcony in our stateroom.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 22, 2019)

easyrider said:


> Bottom line, imo, is the cruise line screwed up by providing the ability for any person to fall out of the upper deck public area to their death. Especially in an are where kids play. As soon as the person boarded the ship the cruise line is responsible for their passengers safety. In 2010 the cruise ships leaving USA ports fall under the Cruise Vessel safety act. Basically, the window should have been closed when passengers are on board because it is part of a glass wall.
> 
> Bill


All decks of the ship would have to be enclosed in glass. May as well cruise in a bubble. The window was not at deck level, but rather at and above the railing. It is no different than an open deck with a railing. The windows open to allow additional ventilation.


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## Sea Six (Jul 22, 2019)

Reminds me of Michael Jackson holding his kid over the balcony.


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## easyrider (Jul 22, 2019)

Luanne said:


> By that logic the cruise ship would be liable if a passenger climbed up on one of the outside railings, then fell overboard.  Are you saying that any open area like that should be somehow barricaded?  Heck, I could have fallen off the balcony in our stateroom.



No. I'm saying the 2010 Cruise Vessel act requires enclosed areas to be enclosed and railings to be solid and 42 inches high. The open window is part of an enclosed view wall and should not be open when passengers are on board.

Bill


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## dioxide45 (Jul 22, 2019)

You would suspect that the cruise line had video of the incident. There are cameras everywhere on the ships these days.


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## easyrider (Jul 22, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> All decks of the ship would have to be enclosed in glass. May as well cruise in a bubble. The window was not at deck level, but rather at and above the railing. It is no different than an open deck with a railing. The windows open to allow additional ventilation.



Yes it is very different because the open window is part of an enclosure and should not have been open.

Bill


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## dioxide45 (Jul 22, 2019)

easyrider said:


> Yes it is very different because the open window is part of an enclosure and should not have been open.
> 
> Bill


Does the existence of a 42" railing around that enclosure change anything?


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## easyrider (Jul 22, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> You would suspect that the cruise line had video of the incident. There are cameras everywhere on the ships these days.



I bet you are right about the camera. To think that the grandpa intentionally dropped his grand kid out of the window at 11 stories is ludicrous, imo. It wasn't intentional on the grand fathers part but it was a safety mistake on the vessels part, imo.

Bill


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## WVBaker (Jul 22, 2019)

easyrider said:


> Bottom line, imo, is the cruise line screwed up by providing the ability for any person to fall out of the upper deck public area to their death. Especially in an are where kids play. As soon as the person boarded the ship the cruise line is responsible for their passengers safety. In 2010 the cruise ships leaving USA ports fall under the Cruise Vessel safety act. Basically, the window should have been closed when passengers are on board because it is part of a glass wall.
> 
> Bill



You can't always protect people from themselves.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 22, 2019)

easyrider said:


> I bet you are right about the camera. To think that the grandpa intentionally dropped his grand kid out of the window at 11 stories is ludicrous, imo. It wasn't intentional on the grand fathers part but it was a safety mistake on the vessels part, imo.
> 
> Bill


I would certainly not think he intentionally dropped the child, but if initial reports are true where he dangled the child and lost footing or his grip then the grandfather is negligent, not the cruise line.


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## easyrider (Jul 22, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> Does the existence of a 42" railing around that enclosure change anything?



I guess the attorneys will sort it out and I bet the cruise lines make it harder for enclosures to open. I thought these enclosure windows were supposed to locked.

Bill


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## Luanne (Jul 22, 2019)

easyrider said:


> No. I'm saying the 2010 Cruise Vessel act requires enclosed areas to be enclosed and railings to be solid and 42 inches high. The open window is part of an enclosed view wall and should not be open when passengers are on board.
> 
> Bill


Count me out in being in a glass walled room with all of the windows closed.

I'm so confused by this whole thing now.  I thought the window the girl fell out of was higher up, something she couldn't have gotten to on her own.  In no way am I saying this was not a terrible, terrible thing to have happened.  But to hold the cruise line completely responsible seems a bit much.  I also don't think the grandfather dangled the child, or dropped her intentionally.  However it happened it will haunt him forever.


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## x3 skier (Jul 22, 2019)

easyrider said:


> No. I'm saying the 2010 Cruise Vessel act *requires enclosed areas to be enclosed* and railings to be solid and 42 inches high. The open window is part of an enclosed view wall and should not be open when passengers are on board.
> 
> Bill



“requires enclosed areas to be enclosed”?

I’m confused. So anything with walls can’t have a window that’s open?  Then since a stateroom with a balcony is an “enclosed area”, the balcony door can’t be opened? The balcony must be enclosed lower deck to upper deck?  The vessel and its design with opening windows wasn’t inspected and approved by the Coast Guard in order to sail in US waters and Ports?

Every cruise ship I’ve ever been on has the same opening windows as the Freedom of the Seas (which I have sailed on before). 

It certainly seems to me the grandfather was holding the child near or out the window and somehow lost his grip as he stated according to his original report. A true tragedy but an accident just the same. 

Cheers


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## Beachclubmum (Jul 22, 2019)

I've followed the story of Chase Lykken for a few years now.  He was a boy who nearly drowned on a Disney cruise and was left with permanent brain damage.  In the aftermath of that incident, Disney added lifeguards to the cruise ship pools. Likewise, I believe that this cruise line will be making some changes.


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## VacationForever (Jul 22, 2019)

Beachclubmum said:


> Likewise, I believe that this cruise line will be making some changes.



I doubt very much.  This "problem" is a feature of all cruise ships and has nothing to do with this cruise line.


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## Beachclubmum (Jul 22, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> I doubt very much.  This "problem" is a feature of all cruise ships and has nothing to do with this cruise line.



I guess time will tell.  I could see them putting something into place so this doesn't happen again.


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## Luanne (Jul 22, 2019)

Beachclubmum said:


> I guess time will tell.  I could see them putting something into place so this doesn't happen again.


Maybe make everyone wear life jackets, put toddler on leashes.  And yes, I am kidding............somewhat.


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## pedro47 (Jul 22, 2019)

Maybe all cruise lines will be forced to seal every window in the children play areas  for safety reasons. IMO.


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## easyrider (Jul 22, 2019)

x3 skier said:


> “requires enclosed areas to be enclosed”?
> 
> I’m confused. So anything with walls can’t have a window that’s open?  Then since a stateroom with a balcony is an “enclosed area”, the balcony door can’t be opened? The balcony must be enclosed lower deck to upper deck?  The vessel and its design with opening windows wasn’t inspected and approved by the Coast Guard in order to sail in US waters and Ports?
> 
> ...



Public areas in buildings with glass type enclosures, like a restaurant on an upper story, have windows that can only open 4 inches because this is code. Even private areas in many buildings only open four inches. The 4 inch rule is because that is the supposed size of a baby's head. This rule applies to railings as well. 

So the cruise ship window on the 11th story should only be able to open 4 inches or not at all. How is this window open enough to let a person fall through ? It is likely a service window that was mistakenly left open to be open over 4 inches, imo.

Bill


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## pedro47 (Jul 22, 2019)

Also, maybe all cruise lines needs to prohibit adults parents and grandparents in the children play areas. Plus, cruise lines will needs to come up with a written consent form about not lifting children up near open windows, railings and on their balconies.


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## Luanne (Jul 22, 2019)

pedro47 said:


> Maybe all cruise lines will be forced to seal every window in the children play areas  for safety reasons. IMO.


Well, that takes care of the children's play areas, but what about the rest of the ship?  What if grandpa, or grandma or the parents, decide to let the child "sit" on the railing.  Or play outside on the balcony.


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## "Roger" (Jul 22, 2019)

easyrider said:


> No. I'm saying the 2010 Cruise Vessel act requires enclosed areas to be enclosed and railings to be solid and 42 inches high. The open window is part of an enclosed view wall and should not be open when passengers are on board.
> 
> Bill


I just read through the 2010 Cruise Security and Safety Act and I didn't see anything about enclosed areas having to be enclosed. (Did I miss it?)

The act does require 42" railings which raises another point. Even if the grandpa was unaware of the window being open, why is he boosting a one year old onto a railing 42" high?


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## easyrider (Jul 22, 2019)

"Roger" said:


> I just read through the 2010 Cruise Security and Safety Act and I didn't see anything about enclosed areas having to be enclosed. (Did I miss it?)
> 
> The act does require 42" railings which raises another point. Even if the grandpa was unaware of the window being open, why is he boosting a one year old onto a railing 42" high?



I didn't read the entire thing but it seems like the act was to design ships under International Code which would require that the openings at a certain height to only open 4 inches unless the opening has a safety screen.

There isn't any safety screen on this window in question and the opening is on the 11th deck. If it were a public building this would be a serious code violation. I think this code applies to the cruise ships that port in the USA.

I think the Cruise ship staff screwed up and not the grandfather.

Bill


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## sail27bill (Jul 22, 2019)

I am with the parents on this one.  42 inches is not that high.  At 2 and a half to 3 years old my daughter could jump and climb like you couldn't believe.  Her upper body strength then and now is incredible. She started climbing out of a full size crib at 6 months (she was double jointed) and we had to anchor all furniture to the walls to prevent toppling when she was a year old.  I could easily see her hanging onto the railing at 3, pulling herself up, sitting on the railing and falling out the window in a blink of an eye.  My son who is five years older, would sometimes pick her up when she was 1-2 years old, and I could see him accidentally doing what the grandfather did.  This was a children's play area...having an open window that low is negligent.  Children do the craziest things, and safety should be paramount in an area designed for children.  Other areas of the ship allows for some parental responsibility because it isn't designed or geared specifically towards children.  But this was. Grandpa's sight might not have been good enough to distinguish that the window was open and not closed, or if he lost his grip because little ones squirm, I get it.  But at eleven stories up, in a children's play area, the cruise line should have had guidelines in place to prevent this sort of thing from happening.  Someone opened a window that shouldn't have been open.  I grieve for the family.  Their loss is profound and will never truly subside.

Anita


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## am1 (Jul 22, 2019)

Our first cruise our sons were 20 months and very active.  They got away from us and were running down the hallway and every cabin door was open.  It was a balcony level.  Very happy when we found them.  It was on a different floor.


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## Gypsy65 (Jul 22, 2019)

Luanne said:


> By that logic the cruise ship would be liable if a passenger climbed up on one of the outside railings, then fell overboard.  Are you saying that any open area like that should be somehow barricaded?  Heck, I could have fallen off the balcony in our stateroom.



I totally agree
Society is sue happy and becoming dumber every day

The recommendation to lock it down is crazy!!!

I’m on a cruise right now and hear people bitching about the glass obstruction on the top deck

People want it their way right up until someone can sue. Then it’s someone else’s fault for not having it safer

Safe is a rubber room. Lock people like this who bitch about everything the hell up!!


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## Gypsy65 (Jul 22, 2019)

Luanne said:


> Maybe make everyone wear life jackets, put toddler on leashes.  And yes, I am kidding............somewhat.



Or
Make the parents watch their kids???

Yeah. Parents watch your kids. Not my job or the cruise lines job or anyone else’s job

It’s the parents and if they can’t. Take them away

Life is not safe. Period!!
We had lawn darts. Smoking parents. Etc
And we all lived
Now it’s bubble wrap and trophy’s for everyone


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## easyrider (Jul 22, 2019)

Gypsy65 said:


> I totally agree
> Society is sue happy and becoming dumber every day
> 
> The recommendation to lock it down is crazy!!!
> ...



I get what you are saying. I often feel the same way. In this case I don't because common sense would be that no window should be open in an enclosed area without a safety screen or opening limiter. It just isn't right to have this type of opening at this height that people can get too close to. 

Bill


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## Gypsy65 (Jul 22, 2019)

The cruise we are on. Alaska. Has 1200 kids on it.
Not sure why? Many are too young for Disney memories yet alone Alaska

Maybe no kids on any cruise until they are 6’


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## Gypsy65 (Jul 22, 2019)

I ride.
Have since before I could peddle a bike

If I get caught in the rain. Wipe out and wreck my bike and kill the passenger can I sue Harley for the bike crashing?
They built it
Or maybe the tire company? They made them
Or why not the weather man?  He said sunny all week

Where does it end?


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## easyrider (Jul 22, 2019)

Gypsy65 said:


> Or
> Make the parents watch their kids???
> 
> Yeah. Parents watch your kids. Not my job or the cruise lines job or anyone else’s job
> ...



I disagree. The cruise ship is responsible for every passenger on the vessel and they admit this. The little girl who fell 11 stories and died was being watched by an adult.

I do agree about the lawn darts, they were fun !!! I remember when it was legal to drink beer and drive. I remember people used to smoke in airplanes. I am kind of glad some things changed.

Where does it end?

For me, right now, lol.

Bill


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## geist1223 (Jul 22, 2019)

What has happened to personal responsibility and accountability? Why is everything the fault of some Corporation? Got to look for some deep pockets to pick? Now if the attorney and parents were simply instituting an action to get the Cruise Line to take some action to prevent such an accident in the future and rejecting any financial damages. Maybe prohibit all Grandparents, Aunts, Uncles, etc. Maybe prohibit anyone under the age of 25 (about mature brain date) or over the age of 55 (possible onset of early dementia/Alzheimer's).


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## Firepath (Jul 22, 2019)

Years ago we took our 3 and 5 yr. olds on a Disney Cruise. My husband insisted we could not have balcony because of the children. I can't imagine anyone purposely lifting a child to a window and not being able to see that it was open. So tragic!


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## davidvel (Jul 23, 2019)

easyrider said:


> No. I'm saying the 2010 Cruise Vessel act requires enclosed areas to be enclosed and railings to be solid and 42 inches high. The open window is part of an enclosed view wall and should not be open when passengers are on board.
> 
> Bill





easyrider said:


> I didn't read the entire thing but it seems like the act was to design ships under International Code which would require that the openings at a certain height to only open 4 inches unless the opening has a safety screen....


Well  you're a bit emphatic Bill despite your lack of citation.  You first state the 2010 Cruise Vessel Act required this area to be enclosed (and presumably no open windows allowed), and then you say you didn't read the Act but you believe "it seems like the act" required certain opening sizes. 

It's only fair to cite to your source before you tell others "no" and then make your unsupported claim.


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## easyrider (Jul 23, 2019)

Dave, I certainly don't have a code answer regarding cruise ship windows. I think I said "seems like" regarding the windows. International building code requirements require buildings, probably not ships, to meet certain standards. The requirements apply to when the construction takes place meaning the codes for 2000 IBC may require different standards today. The ship was built in 2006 which is before the 2010 safety act was implemented. I was reading that anyone could open these windows. 

My thought on the matter is that the cruise ship windows at 11 stories high should meet the same safety requirement that any structure this size has. Especially considering the use of this area of the ship.

All of the reports I have read on this claim this baby was not dangled out of a window. What I read is that she was up against the glass but there was no glass to support her where she fell out. I think it is ridiculous to have a window this size open at 11 stories high without a safety screen. Besides the issue of a freak accident like this one it would be very easy for items to go overboard and hit some one below.

The attorneys will sort it out. The people involved are not money grubbing out for money greedy dummies. The grandfather wasn't holding the baby out of the opening. The idea that these folks are responsible for this accident isn't at all fair, imo. I really don't get why anyone is supporting the cruise line in this matter. If it were you in these circumstances would you just roll over ?

This family's daughter died and if the window had a safety screen or a limiter, this child would be alive.

Bill


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## pedro47 (Jul 23, 2019)

This incident has open a can of worms for the cruise industry. IMO. How many incident liked this has occurred in the past eighty (80) years in this industry???

How many children have sailed on cruise ships for the past four (4) decades ???

How many incidents liked this have occurred on the #1 family Disney Cruise Lines ships?????


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## Bunk (Jul 23, 2019)

Here is an article about what happened:  https://www.southbendtribune.com/content/tncms/live/

According to the family attorney, the Grandfather was with Chloe in a children’s play area and lifted her onto a wooden railing to look out the window. It was a large wall of windows and Anello could not tell the pane was open, Winkleman said.

Chloe went to bang on the glass like she does at her 10-year-old brother’s hockey games, Winkleman said. He blamed the cruise line for having windows that passengers can open in a children’s play area.

“This was a tragic accident that was preventable,” he said. “This is a hidden danger.”

When questioned about whether Anello should have put his granddaughter on the railing, Winkleman said it a was reasonable decision because Anello thought all the windows were closed. He gave the example of someone walking into a glass door thinking it is open.

Looks like this happened before the ship left port. 

I am the grandfather of an active 18 month old.  Even if the window was open when it should have been closed, I would be haunted by the realization that I put my grandchild on a wooden railing and didn't hold on to her.  I wouldn’t think that I made a reasonable decision.  I wonder if one reason for a lawsuit would be to make the grandfather feel less guilty.  

According to the article, it appears that the newer ships must prevent passengers from opening windows, but this ship was built before that law went into effect.

There may be a dispute about where the accident took place.  The article doesn't say the width and height of the wooden railing.


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## pedro47 (Jul 23, 2019)

access forbidden could not open your web link.


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## geist1223 (Jul 23, 2019)

As had been said before the Grandfather's story has changed several tkmes.


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## Big Matt (Jul 23, 2019)

What would have happened if the family was at the Grand Canyon and the grandfather dropped the kid to her death over a railing?  How about the same at Niagara Falls?  This is a very sad and unfortunate situation.  Unless the objective is to make cruise ships safer, the family is gold digging.


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## bluehende (Jul 23, 2019)

geist1223 said:


> As had been said before the Grandfather's story has changed several tkmes.



It has been said but if you look at news reports his story has been exactly the same since the incident.  I just checked and this is not true.  There have been more details but the original story is consistent with what they are saying now.

Newsweek story from day after.

"Essentially her grandfather lifts her up and puts her on a railing and where he thinks that there is glass there because it's clear, but it turns out there was no glass there," he told NBC.

Related Stories

Tribute Paid to Toddler Who Died After Slipping From Grandfather's Arms
Cruise Ship Passenger Saved After Falling Overboard Dies in Hospital
Toddler Aboard Cruise Ship Dies After Slipping From Grandfather's Arms
Winkleman explained that Wiegand would often watch her brother play ice hockey and enjoyed banging on the glass divider between players and spectators.

"She goes to bang on the glass like she would have at one of those hockey rinks, and the next thing you know, she's gone," he added, suggesting the Royal Caribbean cruise line was to blame. "Why in the world would you leave a window open in an entire glass wall full of windows in a kid's area?"

https://www.newsweek.com/granddad-d...dow-death-hysterical-sedated-accident-1448423


Sounds to me exactly what they are saying now.  This grandfather will be haunted by this for the rest of his life.  As a grandfather I am sure he is also blaming himself and is trying to justify a bit of the guilt on the cruise ship.  Not being there I have no idea whether this happened due to negligence  by either party or how much each is to blame.  However, vilifying him by misrepresentation and insinuating that they are only in it for the money is just mean.


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## WVBaker (Jul 23, 2019)

A beautiful 18 month old child is lost forever because her Grandfather made a stupid error in judgment, so place the blame if you must where it belongs.


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## bluehende (Jul 23, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> A beautiful 18 month old child is lost forever because her Grandfather made a stupid error in judgment, so place the blame if you must where it belongs.



Blame is not always a binary choice.


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## WVBaker (Jul 23, 2019)

bluehende said:


> Blame is not always a binary choice.



Very true. In this case, at least in my opinion, there's no doubt that there is no binary choice. The Grandfather is solely responsible for his action and the fate of his Granddaughter.

My point was, many have turned this into a binary choice, which they're entitled to do. Place the blame where they choose, right or wrong.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 23, 2019)

I'm sure the grandfather blames himself every minute of every day, but that doesn't mean the family should quietly go away and suffer silently. I'd sue in these circumstances, too.

"S/he didn't die in vain" can be somewhat of a panacea for all kinds of horrible deaths. If this is one of a million lawsuits that people are driven to file just because their grief is so unimaginable that they don't want others to suffer the same, and the cruise industry is forced to review/change its safety precautions as a result, it's a suit worth filing.


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## bluehende (Jul 23, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> Very true. In this case, at least in my opinion, there's no doubt that there is no binary choice. The Grandfather is solely responsible for his action and the fate of his Granddaughter.
> 
> My point was, many have turned this into a binary choice, which they're entitled to do. Place the blame where they choose, right or wrong.



I am not sure you understand what I mean by binary choice.  Binary is an either or choice with no middle ground.  While I agree from all I know the grandfather shares the lions share of the blame, I have not been convinced that the cruise ship bears no blame.  Not having been there I have no idea how much if any blame goes to the ship.  I do not know whether the open window should have been so obvious as to absolve them of blame.  My gut is that an area with children having an open window with no guard that is easily accessible from a railing is not a safe situation.  I may be looking at this through my lens of being a grandfather and have too much empathy for the guy.


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## WVBaker (Jul 23, 2019)

bluehende said:


> I am not sure you understand what I mean by binary choice.  Binary is an either or choice with no middle ground.  While I agree from all I know the grandfather shares the lions share of the blame, I have not been convinced that the cruise ship bears no blame.  Not having been there I have no idea how much if any blame goes to the ship.  I do not know whether the open window should have been so obvious as to absolve them of blame.  My gut is that an area with children having an open window with no guard that is easily accessible from a railing is not a safe situation.  I may be looking at this through my lens of being a grandfather and have too much empathy for the guy.



I completely understood. It's a choice in which there are only two alternatives. In this case it would mean either blame the cruise line or blame the Grandfather. My feeling is that the Grandfather bears all responsibility for this. Regardless if the window was open or closed, you don't place a child, especially an 18 month old, in such a position. Being a Grandfather myself as well, I would never do so.

Perhaps it's best we simply agree to disagree.


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## Luanne (Jul 23, 2019)

This whole thing is a terrible tragedy.  None of us know the full story, and may never know it.

Just my two cents.  I wouldn't let a child that young remained unwatched, or untended by a family member, no matter if they were in a children's play area.  If the open window had been at a height that the child could have gotten to it alone then I definitely think the cruise ship was at fault.  In this case the child was lifted up and put on the rail, or in the window, or whatever.  I don't know if the grandfather let go of her purposely, if his grasp slipped or what.  Whether or not that window should have been open is somewhat immaterial [to me].  She was lifted up and placed there.


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## rapmarks (Jul 23, 2019)

My husband attended a three week class at a college and we stayed in student housing and were required to do food service in the cafeteria. My children were four and 7 months.   After lunch, I was holding the baby, my son came running toward me.  He went right through the railing over an open stairwell two stories up.  Somehow he grabbed the top of the railing and swung back in.  I had nightmares many times over this incident and it freaks me out just recalling it.  The railing wasn’t safe for children, but this was a college.


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## easyrider (Jul 23, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> A beautiful 18 month old child is lost forever because her Grandfather made a stupid error in judgment, so place the blame if you must where it belongs.



We will see. That is why these people lawyer-ed up. 

It is true that the grandfather should not have let the child play on the rail, imo. I wouldn't have let my kids or grand kids play on the rail. You, me and probably every one that posted here must be smarter than the average person. Safety codes are made for people that are not as smart as us for the most part, imo, but these codes are essential to keeping people safe.

Bill


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## bluehende (Jul 23, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> I completely understood. It's a choice in which there are only two alternatives. In this case it would mean either blame the cruise line or blame the Grandfather. My feeling is that the Grandfather bears all responsibility for this. Regardless if the window was open or closed, you don't place a child, especially an 18 month old, in such a position. Being a Grandfather myself as well, I would never do so.
> 
> Perhaps it's best we simply agree to disagree.



That would be fine if we actually disagreed.


----------



## Pathways (Jul 23, 2019)

Prediction: Family gets the max from the ship's insurance carrier, nothing additional from the cruise line.  This family needs the settlement to help them 'blame' someone else.  No matter the outcome, they will never fully trust each other again, and even the marriage will be strained with parents leveling different amounts of blame/forgiveness.

When a grandparent watches a child who wrecks their bike and loses a tooth or something similar, they all know it's an accident.  But the strain from it can last for years.



bluehende said:


> grandfather lifts her up and puts her on a railing



A railing by definition is for separation, it is NOT A SEAT.  A person of any age should NEVER sit or be placed on a railing -  NEGLIGENT  (Pet peeve of mine - people of all ages too lazy to stand in a queue and instead sitting on the chain/ropes.)



bluehende said:


> She goes to bang on the glass like she would have at one of those hockey rinks



He actively allowed the child to 'bang on the glass'.  Who in their right mind does this?  Why would you allow a child of this age to do this at a hockey rink?  To a toddler, if it's Ok to do it there, it's Ok to bang on glass anywhere else. They do not have the capacity to determine the thickness of glass and whether it may break or have any other consequences.

Again - NEGLIGENT


Actual blame:100% grandparent.  Negligent on two counts by his own admission.


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## Brett (Jul 23, 2019)

easyrider said:


> We will see. That is why these people lawyer-ed up.
> 
> It is true that the grandfather should not have let the child play on the rail, imo. I wouldn't have let my kids or grand kids play on the rail. You, me and probably every one that posted here must be smarter than the average person. Safety codes are made for people that are not as smart as us for the most part, imo, but these codes are essential to keeping people safe.
> 
> Bill



true,  posters here are smarter than average  ..... well, almost everyone 
I have a fear of heights so I probably wouldn't let my children near a railing like that but we don't know the exact circumstances, only what's been described by different reports


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## rapmarks (Jul 23, 2019)

Brett said:


> true,  posters here are smarter than average  ..... well, almost everyone
> I have a fear of heights so I probably wouldn't let my children near a railing like that but we don't know the exact circumstances, only what's been described by different reports


I have that fear of heights also, and the thought of this disturbs me so much.


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## WVBaker (Jul 23, 2019)

An example of those that refuse to take responsibility for the results of their actions until they have exhausted all opportunities to blame someone else.


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## Big Matt (Jul 23, 2019)

I wonder what Eric Clapton would say?  I do know how he handled his own situation.


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## bluehende (Jul 23, 2019)

Pathways said:


> Prediction: Family gets the max from the ship's insurance carrier, nothing additional from the cruise line.  This family needs the settlement to help them 'blame' someone else.  No matter the outcome, they will never fully trust each other again, and even the marriage will be strained with parents leveling different amounts of blame/forgiveness.
> 
> When a grandparent watches a child who wrecks their bike and loses a tooth or something similar, they all know it's an accident.  But the strain from it can last for years.
> 
> ...



I am not sure where you get he actively allowed the child to do this.  

And to turn it around if a kid cannot determine whether a piece of glass will break then why would you have such a piece of glass or lack of in a kids area?  Would that also not be negligent?

This is why I am not 100% that the ship has no blame.  This open window was in a kids area where a railing made it very accessible.  Kids climb railings and anything else around.  Kids cannot be watched every second.   Every parent has a story of looking away for a second and the kid is gone.  My DIL tells the story of my 18 month old grandson.  She turned around to get a pan out of the cabinet.  Turned back to see him standing on the counter about to climb up the top cabinets.  I am sure this was much higher than any railing.  I know people will say I am blaming the ship but please understand that without investigating myself and knowing how dangerous the open window situation was I cannot absolve them of any blame.  There is a difference.  Is this not the same as a wet spot in a store.  People should watch where they are going , but the store is negligent in allowing for a dangerous situation.


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## WVBaker (Jul 23, 2019)

"Winkleman said the family was in a play area on the ship circled by clear glass panels when the accident happened and that Anello lifted Chloe up to a railing he thought was behind glass but turned out to be open to the air."

https://www.insideedition.com/famil...-death-cruise-ship-returns-home-funeral-54394

Rails at that level are not for sitting, standing on or in this case being placed on. She didn't climb up to the railing unbeknownst to others. She was lifted up to the railing.

Not knowing the points of argument, I would guess that attorneys for the ship would bring to light that there is contributory negligence on the part of Anello. There must be a responsible party whose negligence caused the injury. While obvious, most don't believe that some injuries are simply accidents caused, if anything, by their own carelessness.


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## Pathways (Jul 23, 2019)

bluehende said:


> This is why I am not 100% that the ship has no blame



I agree that in court the ship would be assigned some measure of liability.  It's is almost never 100%.  (But this will clearly be settled.  No way would the family want the grandparent to be placed on the stand to answer questions, nor would the cruise line want the bad publicity of the questions they would be asking them.)



bluehende said:


> I am not sure where you get he actively allowed the child to do this



These were quotes in the local media here, that the grandparent was holding up the child who then reached to bang on the glass 'like she does at hockey games'.  (toddlers can't do that without someone holding them up.)  Had the parent been shocked that the child reached to the glass that wasn't there, I would buy that there was no warning.  But their first recollection was 'like she does at the hockey games'  which infers this activity occurred before and could be predicted. (And honestly, I see parents lifting their kids to bang on windows all the time. They think it's cute)

I'm sure the story will now be consistent and convincing since it will now be told only through the lawyers.



bluehende said:


> Kids climb railings and anything else around.



Agree here also. The railings and window may be an real issue, but if this case the ADULT lifted the child, so can't blame the railing/ship.  All of us with kids/grandkids lift them in unsafe areas, swing them around, and play in a way that one slip and they could be badly hurt.  Seldom happens, but when it does it's on US. 

Again, just sad as the relationships within this family will be tested for years.


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## Luanne (Jul 23, 2019)

I keep going back to the fact that her grandfather lifted her up and put her on the railing.  He should have keep a tight hold on her.  Even if he thought there was glass in front of her, she could have just as easily fallen backwards.


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## Pathways (Jul 23, 2019)

WVBaker said:


> lifted Chloe up to a railing he thought was behind glass but turned out to be open to the air.



While I want to believe this at face value also, I struggle here. A kids area with lots of glass panels. They keep it so clean that you couldn't tell there was no glass? Couldn't hear the noise from outside?  (Possible if there were LOTS of kids).  No breeze? In port and docked. Maybe was actually using the open window to get a better view?


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## SmithOp (Jul 23, 2019)

Maybe pictures will help, its a sliding window used for ventilation, unfortunately there is a hand rail right there.












Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Luanne (Jul 23, 2019)

SmithOp said:


> Maybe pictures will help, its a sliding window used for ventilation, unfortunately there is a hand rail right there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You do NOT put a toddler on a railing like that without firmly holding on to her.


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## easyrider (Jul 23, 2019)

Kids sit on hand rails at many venues. Zoo, aquarium and hockey are just a few places I see kids on rails. Looking at the pictures of the window these windows would not be allowed to open more than 4 inches in any commercial building when they are over six feet off the ground or floor unless there is a safety screen or fall protection device.

Even so, I would never put a kid on a rail like this. I bet many do though.

Bill


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## Luanne (Jul 23, 2019)

easyrider said:


> Kids sit on hand rails at many venues. Zoo, aquarium and hockey are just a few places I see kids on rails. Looking at the pictures of the window These windows would not be allowed to open more than 4 inches in any commercial building when they are over six feet off the ground or floor unless there is a safety screen or fall protection device.
> 
> Bill


This was an 18 month old toddler.  She did not climb up and sit herself on that rail.  As I keep saying, if someone was going to put a child of that age on a railing, and expect her to be able to sit, they need to have a firm grasp on her.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 23, 2019)

SmithOp said:


> Maybe pictures will help, its a sliding window used for ventilation, unfortunately there is a hand rail right there.



Oh, those pictures are just so incredibly sad.


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## CPNY (Jul 23, 2019)

SmithOp said:


> Maybe pictures will help, its a sliding window used for ventilation, unfortunately there is a hand rail right there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s crazy that the window opens and it’s at handrail level. That’s a liability. Those windows shouldn’t open.


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## pedro47 (Jul 24, 2019)

This grandparent is a law enforcement officer.  What happen to his common sense and his judgement skills?


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## Luanne (Jul 24, 2019)

pedro47 said:


> This grandparent is a law enforcement officer.  What happen to his common sense and his judgement skills?


I thought it was the father?  Is the grandfather one as well?  Not that it should matter whether either, or both, or them are in law enforcement.  A parent and/or grandparent needs to have common sense and judgement skills when dealing with children.


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## davidvel (Jul 24, 2019)

I still don't get it, but the facts are so vague and conflicting right now. Law enforcement initially reported the grandfather said he dangled the baby. Family lawyer now saying he didn't. Some reports say this was a child care area, but the photos don't reflect this. Family lawyer says grandfather can't tell if a window is open or closed, but he just happened to put the baby on a rail next to the open window. Wouldn't he feel the blowing air, or perceive the difference between glass and air?

There are railings, balconys, and other areas all over the ship where there is no protection above railing level, and a baby could fall overboard if an adult picks them up and loses grip after putting them on the railing.

My opinion is the GF placed baby up on the rail, and lost his grip.

Regardless, a tragic outcome.


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## bluehende (Jul 24, 2019)

davidvel said:


> I still don't get it, but the facts are so vague and conflicting right now. Law enforcement initially reported the grandfather said he dangled the baby. Family lawyer now saying he didn't. Some reports say this was a child care area, but the photos don't reflect this. Family lawyer says grandfather can't tell if a window is open or closed, but he just happened to put the baby on a rail next to the open window. Wouldn't he feel the blowing air, or perceive the difference between glass and air?
> 
> There are railings, balconys, and other areas all over the ship where there is no protection above railing level, and a baby could fall overboard if an adult picks them up and loses grip after putting them on the railing.
> 
> ...



The article I posted says that translation problems were the reason for the initial report.

Also it has always been reported that the area is adjacent to the waterpark.

I would also point out that this area is enclosed and only a small part is open.

The pictures to me show a window that should not open(or at minimum have some kind of guard)   and a railing that should not have a toddler placed on it for any reason.


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## Panina (Jul 24, 2019)

Bottom line a precious life was lost.  Being this has been brought to the publics attention hopefully nothing like this will happen again.  

The cruise lines will need to take addition precautions for safety.  Unfortunately no matter how many precautions are taken a ship cannot be totally safe for children, even adults.  It is up to the guardians of children to check and not assume an area is safe.  

My heart goes out to the family.  To live with the thought only if I didn’t.....  I can understand the lawsuit.   I can’t imagine mentally to be able to take the blame but also the ship needs to put more signage and guards on openings in play areas.  

Both have a part in this tragedy.  

One can say if the ship had guard rails on windows with big signs that could open in play areas this would not have happened.  Others can argue who picks a child up against glass to bang their head and plus doesn't hold them properly.


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## easyrider (Jul 24, 2019)

Luanne said:


> This was an 18 month old toddler.  She did not climb up and sit herself on that rail.  As I keep saying, if someone was going to put a child of that age on a railing, and expect her to be able to sit, they need to have a firm grasp on her.



The other day I was trying to put my grand daughter Milani into her high chair. While I was holding her in one arm and using the other to adjust the chair she wiggled and fell into the chair. I have put her in the chair many times.


davidvel said:


> I still don't get it, but the facts are so vague and conflicting right now. Law enforcement initially reported the grandfather said he dangled the baby. Family lawyer now saying he didn't. Some reports say this was a child care area, but the photos don't reflect this. Family lawyer says grandfather can't tell if a window is open or closed, but he just happened to put the baby on a rail next to the open window. Wouldn't he feel the blowing air, or perceive the difference between glass and air?
> 
> There are railings, balconys, and other areas all over the ship where there is no protection above railing level, and a baby could fall overboard if an adult picks them up and loses grip after putting them on the railing.
> 
> ...




I have only been on two cruise ships and from what I can remember is the cabin with the balcony exits to a rail so you couldn't fall off the ship. The cabin that didn't have a balcony had a small window that didn't open.

The railings were all over the ship at the same height. If a person placed a baby on these railings I would consider it very dangerous. The railings in front of the windows should be thought of in the same way as the railings without windows, imo. The other issue is that the open window looked open in other pictures I saw because the windows are tinted. 

It will be interesting to see how this gets sorted out. 

Bill


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## AnnaS (Jul 25, 2019)

So, so sad.  I can't even imagine.

I would think they have videos.  No clear video, we will never know exactly what/how it happened 100%.  

May she RIP.


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## Aurelius (Jul 25, 2019)




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## x3 skier (Jul 25, 2019)

davidvel said:


> Law enforcement initially reported the grandfather said he dangled the baby. Family lawyer now saying he didn't.



Shock and surprise! A lawyer states something different to make the case more favorable to his side of the case than the person who actually is the main person in a suit. 

This whole incident is a tragic accident. 

Cheers


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## AnnaS (Jul 26, 2019)

Window should not have been open.  I have to "think" anyone in their right mind would not have put a child anyone near that window if he knew there was no glass.  I have to believe he did not realize there was no glass........how/why I don't know.......even if there was a glare/was wearing sunglasses,,,,,,,,,,,I would think you can see a difference between that particular opening and all the ones next to it, above it, below it..........only one open?  this also seems odd to me.......how much ventilation could there have been with only one open? Can these windows be opened/(slides) by anyone?  

Whatever happened..........stupid mistake.......slipped by accident........a child lost her life........tragic accident and can't even imagine living with it all.


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## Gypsy65 (Jul 26, 2019)

These are hand rails.
Not balancing beams!!!

Any kid climbing up on one should be seen and stopped by staff or the guardian therefore making hand rails plenty safe with a window or not
As for the adults? We probably wouldn’t fit out the window and shouldn’t be climbing up on the hand rail either

I think the cruise line will make adjustments but don’t feel they should pay a single dime for flat out stupidity

I see dumb parents with kids standing in grocery carts all the time. And many other sketchy parenting behaviors


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## clifffaith (Jul 26, 2019)

This is one of those instances where a series of missteps all converge with terrible consequences. My heart aches for this family.


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## MULTIZ321 (Oct 29, 2019)

Grandfather charged in death of toddler on cruise ship.


https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/28/us/toddler-cruise-ship-death-grandfather-charged/


Richard


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## pedro47 (Oct 29, 2019)

This is a very sad story and now this story has taken another tragic turn with the grandfather been charged with the death of his granddaughter. The cruise ship video must be damaging for the grandfather IMO.


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## pedro47 (Oct 29, 2019)

After looking/reviewing at some of the above posts of the alleged window observation on the cruise ship; as the window been open or closed. One can clearly see and tell that a window is clearly open. As posted by Aurelius.

I feel it was a lack of judgement by the grandfather or could have been a mental breakdown moment causing a lack of judgement by the grandfather IMHO. There will be no winner in this lawsuit.


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## MULTIZ321 (Nov 21, 2019)

Video of toddler's fatal cruise ship fall may factor in whether grandfather is convicted.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/trav...and-death-video-grandfathers-fate/4258219002/


Richard


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## MULTIZ321 (Nov 26, 2019)

Grandfather who dropped child to her death from cruise describes tragic incident.


https://www.foxnews.com/us/grandfat...r-death-from-cruise-describes-tragic-incident.


Richard


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## pedro47 (Nov 27, 2019)

Personally, I feel the Grandfather should stop doing all television interviews. He does not look liked he is telling the whole truth. IMHO.

This cruise ship has sailed for many, many years, and with thousands of cruise passengers and children on board.

This Grandfather is the only person who allegedly did not see an open window and would allow his Granddaughter to sit in open window. 

Something is wrong. I feel so sorry that an innocent child is loss forever.


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## Bunk (Nov 27, 2019)

Keep in mind that this is not a civil case.  The grandfather is charged with a crime..  So another question is whether the filing of a criminal charge is appropriate.  This criminal case is brought in Puerto Rico.  I don't know what is the standard under the Puerto Rico Penal Code to prove criminal negligence. Does anyone have a definition of criminal negligence under the Puerto Rico Penal Code


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## VacationForever (Nov 27, 2019)

Undoctored videos don't lie...


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## CanuckTravlr (Nov 27, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> Undoctored videos don't lie...



To which undoctored videos are you referring?  Perhaps you could provide a link?


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## VacationForever (Nov 27, 2019)

CanuckTravlr said:


> To which undoctored videos are you referring?  Perhaps you could provide a link?


The video was submitted to Puerto Rico authorities.  They used the video to determine that the grandfather be criminally charged.


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## CanuckTravlr (Nov 27, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> The video was submitted to Puerto Rico authorities.  They used the video to determine that the grandfather be criminally charged.



OK, thanks.  I had seen that reference, but that video has not been released to the public; only to the defence attorneys, who claim it is not inconsistent with the grandfather's statements.  I thought you might have been referring to something that had been released.  So I guess for now the jury (literally) is still out.  Tragic in any case.


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## b2bailey (Nov 27, 2019)

Every time I see this post title I cringe at the thought of being the grandparent responsible for the death of my grandchild. There's no way this was NOT an accidental death. Not sure I could recover from it.


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## CanuckTravlr (Nov 27, 2019)

b2bailey said:


> Every time I see this post title I cringe at the thought of being the grandparent responsible for the death of my grandchild. There's no way this was NOT an accidental death. Not sure I could recover from it.



Agreed.  I don't think anyone believes he deliberately dropped his granddaughter.  He has been charged with negligent homicide.  In other words, the prosecutors believe his actions are considered sufficiently outside the norm as to rise to the level of contributory negligence in the death.

Whether the video and the facts bear that out remains to be seen.  He is unfortunately already in a special hell of his own creation and I don't know how he will live with himself because of that, no matter what the trial ultimately decides.


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## VacationForever (Nov 27, 2019)

Family suing the cruise line is in poor taste.  They need to take responsibility and just move on.


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## MULTIZ321 (Dec 11, 2019)

Family of Chloe Wiegand, who died falling from cruise ship, sues Royal Caribbean.


https://www-nbcnews-com.cdn.ampproj...-died-falling-cruise-ship-sues-royal-n1099576.


Richard


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## x3 skier (Dec 11, 2019)

MULTIZ321 said:


> Family of Chloe Wiegand, who died falling from cruise ship, sues Royal Caribbean.
> Richard



SURPRISE! I assume they will also sue the Grandfather. 

Cheers


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## pedro47 (Dec 11, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> Family suing the cruise line is in poor taste.  They need to take responsibility and just move on.



I agree with your posted 110%, the whole family needs to take responsibility and move on with their lives.

 IMO. 

Is someone guilty in this story?


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## LannyPC (Dec 11, 2019)

MULTIZ321 said:


> Family of Chloe Wiegand, who died falling from cruise ship, sues Royal Caribbean.



Has it been settled or has it just been put before the courts?


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## VacationForever (Dec 11, 2019)

LannyPC said:


> Has it been settled or has it just been put before the courts?


Nope.  The family sued and we have not heard anything about settling.  On the other hand the grandfather has been charged for criminal negligence.


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## Brett (Dec 11, 2019)

MULTIZ321 said:


> Family of Chloe Wiegand, who died falling from cruise ship, sues Royal Caribbean.
> 
> 
> https://www-nbcnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1099576?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE=#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/family-chloe-wiegand-who-died-falling-cruise-ship-sues-royal-n1099576.
> ...



The family suing Royal Caribbean was on the news tonight.


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## Gypsy65 (Dec 14, 2019)

This family just needs to move on as stated
Sure it was horrible but not anyone’s fault but their own

I think I read that the grandfather said the kid loved banging on windows or something like that???

WTH sort of parenting is that?
Who allows this sort of behavior?

All this will do is cause the industry to clamp down on any freedoms while raising rates
Pretty soon cruising will be in the shallow end of the pool if this sort of thing keeps happening


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## MULTIZ321 (Dec 19, 2019)

FATAL SLIP Royal Caribbean cruise video shows moment grandfather drops toddler to her death from window 'he thoughtwas closed'


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10584...oment-grandfather-drops-toddler-death-window/


Richard


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## mentalbreak (Dec 19, 2019)

Started to watch but as the video was loading I decided that I just couldn’t do it. I think it’s in the category of things I wouldn’t be able to ever unsee.

Instead I closed the link and said a prayer for all involved.


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## pedro47 (Dec 19, 2019)

The video was very hard to watch. IMO.
Seeing that child along walking toward that open window.


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## VacationForever (Dec 19, 2019)

There is not much info on the video.


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## AnnaS (Dec 19, 2019)

It was hard to watch.....not too clear but you can definitely make out what the passenger is saying.  I thought I got something else out of it...may she RIP.


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## Passepartout (Dec 19, 2019)

Accidents are accidents. There was no malice, and no one should feel better by profiting from the pain of others' loss. Time to move on, and perhaps celebrate the life of little Chloe on the anniversary of her birth, certainly not on the day her life ended. May the family find peace and a way to heal. The memory of the child deserves it.

Jim


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## AnnaS (Dec 19, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> Accidents are accidents. There was no malice, and no one should feel better by profiting from the pain of others' loss. Time to move on, and perhaps celebrate the life of little Chloe on the anniversary of her birth, certainly not on the day her life ended. May the family find peace and a way to heal. The memory of the child deserves it.
> 
> Jim



100%


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## pedro47 (Dec 19, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> Accidents are accidents. There was no malice, and no one should feel better by profiting from the pain of others' loss. Time to move on, and perhaps celebrate the life of little Chloe on the anniversary of her birth, certainly not on the day her life ended. May the family find peace and a way to heal. The memory of the child deserves it.
> 
> Jim


100%


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## PigsDad (Dec 19, 2019)

Ok, I watched the video and I'm pulling no punches with my opinion here. 

The video shows the little girl running over to the window (solid on the bottom, no panes slide open down there), and then the grandfather following her.  He then puts his hands on the rail and lean over the edge, *sticking his head and upper body out the window*.  Then he picks up the girl, places her on the railing and a few moments later the "accident" happens.

_Now _the family / lawyers are claiming the grandfather didn't know / couldn't tell that the window above the railing was open.  The same window that the video showed he leaned over and stuck his head out moments *before *hoisting the little girl on the railing.  I call BS.  This was not an accident -- it was negligence on the part of the grandfather.  The fact that the family is suing makes me sick.  And the infuriating part of this is that the family will probably win or get a big settlement.  Greedy bastards.

Feel free to disagree with me, but that's how I see it.

Kurt


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## AnnaS (Dec 20, 2019)

I did get the same out of it.  The guest speaking in Spanish seems to indicate the same thing.  This is why I posted I got something else out of it. Just my first opinion thought - and I might be wrong.  

Very poor choice - think Michael Jackson with his son over the balcony - not thinking...but definitely not intentional...it was an accident..........he will have to live with this the rest of his life.  They all need to move on but I don't think they should be blaming the cruise line for this.  The family should drop the law suit and move on - no one is going to feel better about this no matter what the settlement.


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## Patri (Dec 20, 2019)

PigsDad said:


> Feel free to disagree with me, but that's how I see it.
> Kurt


That's what I saw too, and it puzzled me. The tape, though fuzzy, appears to exonerate the cruise line. The grandfather was leaning out the window way before the girl dropped. He probably lost his grip and changed his story. Maybe he was trying to thrill the child hanging her in the air.


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## bluehende (Dec 20, 2019)

Thank you for posting descriptions of the video.  There is no way I can watch it.


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## klpca (Dec 20, 2019)

Yep. I'll give almost anyone the benefit of the doubt, but when grandpa put his head through the open window, well now that's a different story. I am sure that he didn't mean to drop her, but he *knew* that that window was open. There's no other way to spin it. I wonder if the parents hadn't seen this video and just believed grandpa's story? If not then this video will be devastating for them because it tells the truth about the events of the incident.

Nothing but tragedy here.


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## Brett (Dec 20, 2019)

Patri said:


> That's what I saw too, and it puzzled me. The tape, though fuzzy, appears to exonerate the cruise line. The grandfather was leaning out the window way before the girl dropped. He probably lost his grip and changed his story. Maybe he was trying to thrill the child hanging her in the air.



I'm not watching the video but if that's what's shown then yes, he is at fault


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## Gypsy65 (Dec 21, 2019)

I’m sure grandpa looked out and then picked the kid up to do the same and the child just slipped out of his hands

People do this sorta thing ALL the time. Tossing them up in the air. Hanging them over balconies etc..

Poor judgment and as stated. No fault of the cruise line
I don’t see how it would be their fault even if he really didn’t see the window
He picked the child up to a level it could never have been at unless the kid was 6’ tall


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## VacationForever (Dec 21, 2019)

The issue is that this guy was not strong enough to handle a wriggling toddler over his head and to hold at 45 degrees angle and hence he dropped her.  To me it was obvious from the video.


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## MULTIZ321 (Jan 17, 2020)

Granddad of toddler who died in cruise ship fall knew window was open, Royal Caribbean says.










						Royal Caribbean Cruises claims footage proves toddler's death was fault of grandfather
					

The cruise line says video footage proves that the grandfather of Chloe Wiegand knew a ship window was open before he held her up to it.




					www-nbcnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org
				



.


Richard


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## pedro47 (Jan 17, 2020)

This is just a very sad story. IMHO.  Because a little girl is now dead, not walking, talking or playing daily and never having a chance to enjoy her life to the fullness.


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## Cornell (Jan 21, 2020)

Posting this as a follow up to this story.  









						Royal Caribbean cruise line says Indiana grandfather leaned out window, so he knew it was open before his granddaughter’s fall
					

The cruise line says video shows the man leaning out of the open window for about eight seconds moments before he lifted his granddaughter up to it.




					www.chicagotribune.com
				




Royal Caribbean is seeking that the lawsuit by the toddler's family be dismissed b/c fault lies squarely with the grandfather. 

_*It says surveillance video on the ship shows Anello leaning out of the open window for about eight seconds just moments before he lifted his granddaughter, who would have turned 2 in December, up to the window, from which she fell to the dock far below.*_

_*"This is a case about an adult man, who, as surveillance footage unquestionably confirms: (1) walked up to a window he was aware was open; (2) leaned his upper body out the window for several seconds; (3) reached down and picked up Chloe; and (4) then held her by and out of the open window for thirty four seconds before he lost his grip and dropped Chloe out of the window,” the court filing states.*_


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## davidvel (Jan 21, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Posting this as a follow up to this story.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's what I saw in the video.  Completely at odds with the the family and grandpa are claiming.


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## Cornell (Jan 21, 2020)

It's upsetting to me, too, when I see the video that there were so many people nearby that could have stopped this.  I know the inclination is to not get involved in other people's business but what the grandfather did here was so dangerous & reckless that I cannot understand how no one told him to cut it out.


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## Sea Six (Jan 21, 2020)

Poor little girl is dead because of the negligent behavior of her own grandfather, yet the family expects to be paid out by the cruise line.  SAD!


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## Gypsy65 (Jan 21, 2020)

Cornell said:


> It's upsetting to me, too, when I see the video that there were so many people nearby that could have stopped this.  I know the inclination is to not get involved in other people's business but what the grandfather did here was so dangerous & reckless that I cannot understand how no one told him to cut it out.



I “ think “ to answer your question why no one got involved is because we live in a very “ mind your own business “ society 

Years, even decades ago telling someone their actions were dangerous would have maybe been a more welcomed observation 

Today we as a society have learned to stay out of it, either due to backlash or in extreme cases maybe even a lawsuit??

How many Dateline type shows have you seen where people are getting the piss beat out of them and people just watch and video it?
Even security type personnel just watch beatings in major cities such as NYC, maybe that’s what they’re instructed to do??

The minute someone gets involved then that opens up all sorts of issues whether small such as a pissing match or large like a lawsuit

People would rather stay out of things even though we as a society really need more to get involved


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## Patri (Jan 22, 2020)

The other people were just going about their business. They were on vacation. I don't know if any even realized what was going on. Them talking to the grandpa might have also startled him, he drops the baby, and then blames them. But honestly, I saw no poor behavior by the other people.


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## MULTIZ321 (Feb 25, 2020)

Grandfather of toddler who died falling from cruise ship to plead guilty to her death.










						Grandfather of toddler who died falling from cruise ship to plead guilty in her death
					

An attorney for Salvatore Anello, Chloe Wiegand's grandfather, told NBC News that paperwork was filed to change his plea in a deal to avoid jail time.




					www.nbcnews.com
				



.


Richard


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## Gypsy65 (Feb 26, 2020)

I hope that the family isn’t t saying they are doing this plea so this man can go home while still believing that he didn’t know the window was open

They need to drop the lawsuit. Acknowledge that grandpa lied and move on
He might be color blind but does that mean you can’t tell brighter light differences from a open window and closed tinted?
Does colorblind mean you can’t tell the difference between your head going through an open window as his clearly did and that of your head hitting a closed window?

After he pushed his head through the window, what glass was this kid going to bang on?

He is either a liar and a fool or a really  really stupid man

He took a horrible incident and tried lying to cover up his stupidity, had he just said what happens from the start then all this would have been was just a really bad event but he and the family take no responsibility 

They should all be locked up just for being dumb especially after they lost this child


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## pedro47 (Feb 26, 2020)

This is  just a very sad story, with no happy ending IMHO.


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## Sea Six (Feb 27, 2020)

Anyone know the details of the plea deal?  Grampa serving any jail time?


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## Cornell (Feb 27, 2020)

Sea Six said:


> Anyone know the details of the plea deal?  Grampa serving any jail time?


According to the Chicago Tribune, no jail time.


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## Passepartout (Feb 27, 2020)

Cornell said:


> According to the Chicago Tribune, no jail time.


I think this is the correct response. He will serve probation in Indiana where they live. No penalty will bring the child back. The grandfather is not a criminal. The family needs time to heal and move on. All in all, a very sad incident that shouldn't befall any family.

Jim


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## pedro47 (Feb 27, 2020)

The granddad is suffering every minute of day thinking about what happen. 
There is no happy ending to this tragic.


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## Sandy VDH (Feb 27, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> The granddad is suffering every minute of day thinking about what happen.
> There is no happy ending to this tragic.



That is for certain.


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## x3 skier (Feb 27, 2020)

I have about zero empathy for the grandfather and the family. A true tragedy and then the denials, fabrications, lawsuit and tv appearances blaming everyone else for a tragic and careless accident.

May the child RIP.


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## VacationForever (Feb 27, 2020)

I wonder if the family will continue with their civil lawsuit against Royal Caribbean.


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