# Harrah's to acquire Planet Hollywood?



## John Cummings (Sep 21, 2009)

"September 16, 2009 - Harrah's buys $140 million in debt of the Planet Hollywood Casino which is next to their Las Vegas properties. It is wildly assumed that this step is the first in a hoped for acquisition of the property to be the 8th casino in Las Vegas. [10] Harrah's assembled all 8 of it's existing Las Vegas properties, by purchasing existing resorts beginning in April 1992. Although it was widely announced in previous years that the company planned to implode properties and build new ones from the scratch, the new corporate strategy, known as Project Link was announced in 2009. Conceding that the company had little experience in building major resorts, it developed Project Link, which calls for a retaining and improving all the existing buildings, and adding a collection of about 20 restaurants and bars to be built along a winding corridor between the company’s O’Sheas and Flamingo casinos, on the east side of the Strip. It is an attempt to create the kind of entertainment district that has developed organically in cities such as Los Angeles, Memphis and New Orleans yet is lacking on the Strip, with its enclosed, casino-centric zones"

This is pretty ironic as Harrah's is in very bad financial condition. They acquired $20 billion in debt when they were purchased by Hamlet Holdings last year.


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## Rent_Share (Sep 21, 2009)

It doesn't say what they paid for the debt, maybe they bought the whole thing from a PCC, who got paid a fee to get the debt off the seller's back


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## AwayWeGo (Sep 21, 2009)

*Doubling Down.*

Maybe they'd like to go _Double Or Nothing_ with WestGate to take over the timeshare too while they're at it. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Courts (Sep 21, 2009)

I guess I can use my "Harrah's" gold rewards card in Planet Hollywood casino soon.  

.


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## ricoba (Sep 21, 2009)

What the "suits" don't get is that Las Vegas was built on giving the average Joe/Jane the most bang for his/her buck...

Sure let Harrah's take over the whole Strip...I'll take a Boyd property any day. 

As a "low roller" I get comped all the time with Boyd.

Or maybe the El Cortez or South Point...places that are built by families/individuals for the average man or woman.


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## AwayWeGo (Sep 21, 2009)

*Me Too.*




ricoba said:


> I'll take a Boyd property any day.


Which ones are Boyd properties ? 

I mean, we're low rollers too. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## ricoba (Sep 21, 2009)

AwayWeGo said:


> Which ones are Boyd properties ?
> 
> I mean, we're low rollers too.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​




Downtown:  Main Street Station, The California and my fave, the Fremont

Off Strip:  Sam's Town, Suncoast, Orleans (where I always get freebies), Gold Coast...

They tore down their Strip property ( the Stardust) to build the now on hold Echelon Place!


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## JeffW (Sep 21, 2009)

The Orleans used to be a Coast (?) casino until they got bought out by Boyd.  Non-gambler offers are not nearly as good:  they added a $5/night resort fee (you don't get $5/night out of it), can cancelled their "Fun Book", which used to give 2-1 on drinks, show tickets, etc.  Now THAT you could get some value from.

South Pointe was originally South Coast, part of that chain.  I don't know the details, but it was sold off from the Coast Casino chain, bought by someone else (maybe independent), and renamed South Pointe.

Jeff


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## ricoba (Sep 21, 2009)

JeffW said:


> The Orleans used to be a Coast (?) casino until they got bought out by Boyd.  Non-gambler offers are not nearly as good:  they added a $5/night resort fee (you don't get $5/night out of it), can cancelled their "Fun Book", which used to give 2-1 on drinks, show tickets, etc.  Now THAT you could get some value from.
> 
> South Pointe was originally South Coast, part of that chain.  I don't know the details, but it was sold off from the Coast Casino chain, bought by someone else (maybe independent), and renamed South Pointe.
> 
> Jeff



It was bought by Michael Gaughan, the son of the legendary Jackie Gaughan.

You are right it was originally a Coast Casino.  They merged with Boyd and then Michael Gaughan bought out South Coast (now South Point from Boyd).

Boyd was founded by another Vegas legend, Sam Boyd and his son Bill Boyd still plays big part in the Boyd Corporation.

I really don't like the Orleans, but they always comp me...so what's not to like??? 

I have never had to pay the "resort fee". 

I really prefer the Fremont on Fremont Street in dirty old downtown Las Vegas!


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## ScoopKona (Sep 21, 2009)

ricoba said:


> I really prefer the Fremont on Fremont Street in downtown dirty old downtown Las Vegas!



$1 margaritas, 24/7, and a decent seafood buffet three nights a week. What's not to like?

I don't gamble at all -- the games hold no interest for me. (If anyone in Vegas offered cribbage, I would haunt that casino like a specter. But cribbage is a skill game, and casinos aren't interested in handing out free money.)


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## Karen G (Sep 22, 2009)

ricoba said:


> I really don't like the Orleans, but they always comp me...so what's not to like???


Apparently a lot of people like the Orleans. We were there Friday night to see The Temptations. I had won tickets on the radio by being the 10th caller.  I thought we were never going to find a parking place. We went around the whole building and finally found a place on one of the top floors of the parking garage. The place was packed with people everywhere inside.

I love the Orleans theater. It is just big enough--every seat affords a good view of the stage and there is plenty of leg room. The Temptations were great and put on a fantastic show. One of them is one of the original guys and they said he had been performing for 48 years. He can still sing & dance just like the original group.


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## John Cummings (Sep 22, 2009)

Charging a resort fee is becoming more common. Some of the Station Casino/Hotels now charge it. The Aliante Station Hotel charges a $15 /nt resort fee which they call a "hotel amenities fee". The Aliante is one of the newer Station Casino/Hotels in North Las Vegas. The Agua Caliente Casino/Resort in Rancho Mirage CA where I stayed for 4 nights last week charge a $12 /nt resort fee. They told me it was just a gimmick so the hotels can advertise a lower room rate. I give them credit for being honest about it. If you get comped, you won't have to pay the resort fee.

I would never stay at a place I didn't like just because it was comped. We are very picky about where we stay and play. Our favorite off-strip property in Las Vegas is the Silverton at Blue Diamond and I-15. They always comp us for everything plus free show tickets and $300-500 in free slot play. The Silverton's rooms are pretty nice and we often get a suite if available. We don't play there as much as we far prefer the Paris on the strip but we have often stayed a couple nights at the Silverton combined with a few nights at the Paris. We don't like downtown Las Vegas at all.

However, we would much rather stay and play in the Agua Caliente in Rancho Mirage CA or Harrah's Rincon in San Diego county. I seriously doubt that we will ever go back to Las Vegas unless for a family reunion. We used to spend 30-40 nights a year in Las Vegas.


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## JeffW (Sep 22, 2009)

While we're still on the topic, add me as one who in likes the Orleans.  Been staying there every year (twice this year) for the last 5-6 years.  I'm not sure it does anything fantastically, but in terms of overall value, I think it's really tough to beat:

- the rooms aren't super-luxorious, but they are adequate, and not expensive
- it's not sitting on the Strip (were traffic can be a nightmare), but it's also not way out (like Red Rock of Suncoast)
- buffet isn't gourment, but the food isn't bad, and a great deal for a ~$7 breakfast and sub-$15 dinner

It's pool is nice; it has a bowling alley and movie theatre; it even has a live band playing at night.

For my trip in August, I paid $18 one night (+ $5 restort fee), and $0 for two other nights.  It's going to KILL me when I go back next Spring, and I'm back to paying 'regular' rates.

Jeff


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## ScoopKona (Sep 22, 2009)

JeffW said:


> While we're still on the topic, add me as one who in likes the Orleans.
> Jeff



Across the street and a little west of the Orleans is International Market, one of the few things about Las Vegas that I truly love. 

They don't have a single thing you can find at your neighborhood supermarket. Not one.

What they DO have is everything you CAN'T find at your neighborhood supermarket, like:

German sausages and mustards
Italian canned tomatoes, porcini mushrooms, and decent balsamic vinegars
300 varieties of olive oil from roughly 20 countries
real Irish bacon
French butter
British Heinz baked beans, bangers, pasties and clotted cream
Japanese snack foods and enough sushi ingredients to open a restaurant
More varieties of soy sauce than you can shake a stick at
Every form of noodle/pasta from every great noodle/pasta culture
Fifty (count 'em, 50!) varieties of kimchi.
Swiss, German, Belgian and British chocolates
Russian black bread, caviar, and canned goods
(former) East German curry ketchup (If you visted East Berlin, back when it was still East Berlin, you know how cool this is)
New Zealand Lamb, Long Island pekin duck (with head and feet still attached)
Vast assortment of North African and Indian spices and canned yummies.

Nearly every region of the world is represented -- except North and South America. There are plenty of markets that cater to this hemisphere. International Market caters to "everywhere else."


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## JeffW (Sep 23, 2009)

I've seen it but never been in it.  I'll need to make a point to visit it next year.

Jeff


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## ScoopKona (Sep 23, 2009)

JeffW said:


> I've seen it but never been in it.  I'll need to make a point to visit it next year.
> 
> Jeff



They sell membership cards for $10. Or you can pay 10% extra and skip the card.

I can't seem to walk into that store without spending at least $100, so the card makes financial sense. (Blowing $100 on sushi ingredients, cheese-filled Greek pastries and Chinese shrimp chips doesn't really make financial sense, though.)


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## JeffW (Sep 23, 2009)

As long as it's free to enter, that's good.  I could see my wife maybe wanting to buy one or two small things, so the surcharge is not a big deal.  

Jeff


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Sep 23, 2009)

ScoopLV said:


> (If anyone in Vegas offered cribbage, I would haunt that casino like a specter. But cribbage is a skill game, and casinos aren't interested in handing out free money.)


If there were demand, they would simply provide a dealer and take a percentage of the pot.


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## John Cummings (Sep 23, 2009)

ScoopLV said:


> I don't gamble at all -- the games hold no interest for me. (If anyone in Vegas offered cribbage, I would haunt that casino like a specter. But cribbage is a skill game, and casinos aren't interested in handing out free money.)



I have played cribbage for over 50 years. As much as I like the game it requires NO more skill than the many varieties of poker or black jack that are played at all the casinos.


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## ScoopKona (Sep 23, 2009)

John Cummings said:


> I have played cribbage for over 50 years. As much as I like the game it requires NO more skill than the many varieties of poker or black jack that are played at all the casinos.



Do you agree that over the course of 100 games, the better cribbage player will amass a larger point total than his or her challenger? 

Do you agree that a lucky player can win any given game, but luck doesn't really decide who wins a best of seven?

I say yes to both. That means cribbage is a skill game.


If a casino were to offer cribbage in the way they now offer blackjack, I would immediately play a dozen small-wager games against all their dealers to see who was weakest. Then I'd wager whatever maximum they allowed against those dealers. There's no way any casino would offer this game -- there's no house edge. I don't think contract bridge is going to be offered anytime soon, either.


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## John Cummings (Sep 23, 2009)

ScoopLV said:


> Do you agree that over the course of 100 games, the better cribbage player will amass a larger point total than his or her challenger?
> 
> Do you agree that a lucky player can win any given game, but luck doesn't really decide who wins a best of seven?
> 
> I say yes to both. That means cribbage is a skill game.




That is obvious but poker is equally as much a skill game. By the way I also played contract bridge for more than 50 years. All 3 are skill games with different sets of skills.


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## ScoopKona (Sep 23, 2009)

John Cummings said:


> That is obvious but poker is equally as much a skill game. By the way I also played contract bridge for more than 50 years. All 3 are skill games with different sets of skills.



I disagree. _Betting_ is the skill in poker. Throw away betting, and poker is basically a kid's game*. There's very little skill to the actual card game. (Ranging from "None at All" for Texas Hold'em to "very little" for draw poker and stud poker.)

I'd put bridge head and shoulders above poker as far as card playing is concerned. Finessing an ace out of your opposing team is something that takes practice and patience. But knowing bidding conventions is still more important to winning than knowing how to play the game.

For me, cribbage is the zenith of card games. There are no contracts, no bets, no psychology. Just you, your opponent, and the cards -- who's a better card player. There's an element of chance, sure. But that is negated over the course of several games. Better players get more points by either knowing (or being able to calculate) the draw percentages and being sharper on the play and pegsmanship in general.

I prefer cribbage to hearts because once you know the game, hearts boils down to "who's the best card counter."



* When you get down to it, most casino games are kid's games. Without the gambling element, nobody in their right mind would play blackjack, roulette, slots, etc. for any length of time. Casinos took these games, or invented them, because the games can be learned in a matter of minutes by basically anyone (even craps). And the expectation of winning is good enough to make people forget how statistics work. 

I go to a casino and see the people playing (as I walk to a restaurant or show) and ask myself, "Would I do this if there wasn't any money involved?" The answer for me at least is "no."


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## John Cummings (Sep 23, 2009)

ScoopLV said:


> I disagree. _Betting_ is the skill in poker. Throw away betting, and poker is basically a kid's game*. There's very little skill to the actual card game. (Ranging from "None at All" for Texas Hold'em to "very little" for draw poker and stud poker.)
> 
> I'd put bridge head and shoulders above poker as far as card playing is concerned. Finessing an ace out of your opposing team is something that takes practice and patience. But knowing bidding conventions is still more important to winning than knowing how to play the game.
> 
> ...



You are entitled to your opinion. However you are obviously not a poker player or video poker player. There is a lot of skill in both games though the skills are not the same. The odds of Video poker can be changed by several percentage points based on the skill of the player. Many of the full pay Video Poker machines like Jokers Wild have a payback percentage greater than 100% with optimal play. The casinos can do this because the vast majority of Video Poker players are not skilled players. I agree that slots, roulette and most casino games are strictly luck.


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## ScoopKona (Sep 23, 2009)

John Cummings said:


> You are entitled to your opinion. However you are obviously not a poker player or video poker player. There is a lot of skill in both games though the skills are not the same. The odds of Video poker can be changed by several percentage points based on the skill of the player. Many of the full pay Video Poker machines like Jokers Wild have a payback percentage greater than 100% with optimal play. The casinos can do this because the vast majority of Video Poker players are not skilled players. I agree that slots, roulette and most casino games are strictly luck.



OK. Let's say you can find a $1 per hand video poker machine that pays out a whopping 104%. (If I'm not mistaken, that's pretty much unheard of.) If you can crank out 600 hands per hour, that's $24/hr to stare at cards on a video screen. How many hours of that per day can you handle? 

As for poker, except for tournaments, there's always somebody with deeper pockets than you. Players aren't allowed to pocket half their winnings mid-game, so a bad all-in call can ruin your day. 

In tournaments, even the big tournaments, the elite players don't always make a spot at the final table because a bad beat can wipe them out.

I agree that there are a few dozen poker players who consistently are at the money table in tournaments. But it's still hit and miss. There's just too much luck involved for me. 

I guess my point is that there are much easier ways to make a living. And when I vacation, I want to vacation. Not stare at cards all day.


EDIT -- Just for yuks, I googled "casino cribbage" and found this: http://www.lvdcasino.com/cribbage.html

One, it's in Michigan -- and I'm in Las Vegas. Two, it's a team game. I'll play partners when there are four cribbage players. But I'd prefer to split that into two games then have the winners and losers play each other. I'm amazed Las Vegas doesn't have enough cribbage players to support a $100 per person weekly tournament. I'd be in, every week.


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## John Cummings (Sep 24, 2009)

ScoopLV said:


> OK. Let's say you can find a $1 per hand video poker machine that pays out a whopping 104%. (If I'm not mistaken, that's pretty much unheard of.) If you can crank out 600 hands per hour, that's $24/hr to stare at cards on a video screen. How many hours of that per day can you handle?
> 
> As for poker, except for tournaments, there's always somebody with deeper pockets than you. Players aren't allowed to pocket half their winnings mid-game, so a bad all-in call can ruin your day.
> 
> ...



I agree there are much better ways to make a living. However, I play Video Poker and the slots strictly for the fun of it and not to make money. It is entertainment and nothing more. I would also play cribbage at the casinos if it was available but it isn't. There is luck in cribbage as in all card games. If you don't get the cards, you will not win no matter how skillful you are unless you are playing against a total dummy. A skillful player will prevail in the long run just as they will in poker.

Apparently you don't play Video Poker or you would know that you would never play $1.00 per hand. In order to get the max payout percentage you need to play 5 X denomination which is $1.25 for a quarter machine, $5 for a dollar machine etc. That is because there is a huge bonus for the Royal Flush when playing max coin. On a non progressive machine the payout for a Royal Flush for 5 coins in is typically 800:1 vs 250:1 for coins 1-4. For Jokers Wild the typical payback for a Royal is 940:1 for the 5th coin ( coins 1-4 are the same as the others ) because a Royal is harder to get on a Jokers Wild Machine. Progressive machines are even better though often they have a penalty for being progressive. I always look for progressives with a high payout. I have won many Royal Flushes on progressive machines with a high payout. All slot and poker machines are cyclical which is part of being random. Hopefully you will sit down at a machine that is in a hot cycle. That is where the luck comes in as well as some skill in managing your bankroll. As Kenny Rogers said, you need to know when to hold em and when to fold em. You would be surprised how many people will sit playing at a cold machine rather than moving to a different one. I never play when the casino is crowded as it limits my ability to move around from machine to machine.

Video Poker machines are the only machines where the player knows what the payback percentage is for any given machine. That is because the payback table dictates the odds and the player can read that.

I happen to be very good with numbers which is very important in most card games. There is a huge difference between table poker and Video Poker. Video Poker is strictly a strategy game  based on numbers. Table poker requires people skills in knowing when to bluff, how much to bet etc. In Video Poker, you always bet the same and you can't bluff a machine.

It is not a matter of how many hours I can stand playing Video Poker or a slot machine. It is not an endurance test and I am not doing it to make a living. I play as long as I am having fun. When I get tired of it, I go do something else like go to a movie, hang out at the pool, go to the room and relax, or whatever. How long I play at one sitting could be several hours or less than an hour. I used to play table games many years ago, usually blackjack but I now play only slots and Video Poker. I don't care to play with the typical table game players that frequent the casinos now. It was much different several years ago.

I don't go on vacations to gamble. Gambling trips are just that and not vacations. It happens to be my hobby. We go on many vacations where gambling is not involved at all.


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## Sandy VDH (Sep 24, 2009)

I also play cribbage, but I never bet on cribbage.  It is skill (at keeping the right cards) and luck (at cutting the perfect card).

For Video Poker, I play Jacks or better.  

Having some knowledge will improve you odds. For starters picking the right machine and playing the maximum bet.

But I have noticed the VP payouts are getting worse and worse.  It is hard to find a 9,6 payout machine anymore at most of the casinos.  (By the way for those that don't know, 9,6 refers to the payout amounts full house, flush for a bet of 1.)

A few years ago you could find a lot of machines at 9,6 now I am lucky if I find an 8,5.  I have seen a whole lot of 6,4 machines as well.  What really bothers me, is I see a whole bunch of machings that only pay even for 2 pairs.


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## jamstew (Sep 24, 2009)

John Cummings said:


> If you don't get the cards, you will not win no matter how skillful you are unless you are playing against a total dummy. .



Truer words were never spoken. After complaining to my former boss that I never got any cards, he decided that it must be because I really didn't know how to play (blackjack). Although I insisted that I certainly did know how, he was determined to teach me. After about an hour of dealing hands, he said, "You really just don't get any cards, do you?"


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## Sandy VDH (Sep 24, 2009)

What are you Phil Helmuth, complaining that you keep loosing to players with no skill only luck. 

Luck does help.  Professional Poker players should be a fine example.  How many of them don't make it into money let alone the final table in the big poker tournaments.


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## beanie (Sep 24, 2009)

just came back from 8 days in vegas where I played mostly dueces wild as the payouts on jacks or better weren't that good . I scored 4 dueces 3x's and a royal no duece once and still lost $300. but had a great time doing it.  this talk of cribbage reminds me of national lampoons vegas vacation where chevy chase goes into a casino and they have games like war , etc. and he exclaims " I love these games " and proceeds to lose anyway. now me I want spades and hearts


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## pianodinosaur (Sep 24, 2009)

Regarding gambling in Las Vegas:

You Play, You Pay


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## John Cummings (Sep 25, 2009)

Sandy Lovell said:


> For Video Poker, I play Jacks or better.
> 
> Having some knowledge will improve you odds. For starters picking the right machine and playing the maximum bet.
> 
> ...



Picking the right machine is a matter of luck except for checking the pay table. Playing Max Bet is a given. Like they say, if you can't afford to play $5.00 a hand then play a quarter machine. If you can't afford to play $1.25 a hand then play a nickel machine, if you can't afford to play $0.25 per hand then go to a movie.

Knowing the proper strategy for the machine you are playing and sticking to that strategy is the most important factor on increasing your odds of winning. When I first started playing Video Poker many years ago, I read every book I could get my hands on about strategy and how the machines worked. I got Video Poker software when it first became available. I played the VP tutor software until I could go hours without making an error. When I play, it is all automatic to me as to what to hold or not. I don't have to think about it other than remember what kind of game I am playing as the strategy varies tremendously based on what Video Poker game you are playing.

It is very true that full pay Video Poker machines are becoming pretty rare. You certainly will not find any on the strip in Las Vegas. The Barbary Coast used to have full pay Deuces Wild. The best machines I ever found were at the Silverton in Las Vegas. They had a bank of Bob Dancer's ( Video Poker guru ) multi denomination/game full pay machines. They had all the games from JOB, Deuces Wild, Joker Wild, Bonus, Double Bonus, etc. with denominations from $0.05 to $1.00. They were full pay across all denominations. Unfortunately they removed these machines 2 years ago. I have found full pay machines at some of the California Indian casinos. Changing the payout for 2 pairs from 2:1 to 1:1 for a JOB machine lowers the payback tremendously. Two pairs on a 2:1 machine contributes the largest percentage of the machine's payout than any other hand.

I am yet to see any 6:4 JOB machines nor 1:1 for 2 pairs. I don't play much JOB anymore but used to play it a lot. Now I only play it if I find a progressive with a large jackpot. I regularly play Shock Wave, Joker Wild, Double Double Bonus, Bonus, and Deuces wild. Shock Wave and Joker Wild are my 2 favorites. I like Shock Wave because it has 2 jackpots of 4,000, the Royal Flush and Shockwave. Shockwave is when you get 4 of a kind followed by another 4 of a kind within the next 10 hands. Shockwave also has a pretty good payback table at 100:1 for straight flush, 11/8 for FH/Flush and 5:1 for straight. They are not found everywhere but most of the Harrah's casinos have them. By the way, the payback for Video Poker does vary among the Harrah's casinos on the strip with the Flamingo being by far the worst. Full pay machines are more common for the dollar and higher machines.

There are several reasons for the paybacks dropping:

Players are becoming more skillful with the proliferation of Video Poker Tutor software that you can play on your PC. I have used Bob Dancer's WinPoker for years which is the best. It covers all games and plays just like the real machines. You can adjust the pay tables to match the machines you normally play. It analyzes each hand and tells you if you made a mistake and what you should do with all the odds for every possible combination based on the hand you were dealt. It also tells you the penalty for making the error. It is much better than the cheat sheets which only cover basic play and don't get into all the penalty card combinations.

The casinos include the value of the rewards through the player's cards in 
calculating the overall payback percentage.

There are far fewer slot and Video Poker players today for the number of machines.

I am sorry this is so long but I get somewhat carried away with the subject.


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## spatenfloot (Oct 2, 2009)

John Cummings said:


> "
> This is pretty ironic as Harrah's is in very bad financial condition. They acquired $20 billion in debt when they were purchased by Hamlet Holdings last year.


The difference is that Harrah's was taken private so they no longer have to publicly report earnings like MGM. That makes a big difference if you can take losses without worrying about hiding it from shareholders.


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## spatenfloot (Oct 2, 2009)

John Cummings said:


> But I have noticed the VP payouts are getting worse and worse.  It is hard to find a 9,6 payout machine anymore at most of the casinos.  (By the way for those that don't know, 9,6 refers to the payout amounts full house, flush for a bet of 1.)
> 
> A few years ago you could find a lot of machines at 9,6 now I am lucky if I find an 8,5.  I have seen a whole lot of 6,4 machines as well.  What really bothers me, is I see a whole bunch of machings that only pay even for 2 pairs.


I play deuces wild and can usually find a decent number of good paytable machines, usually at Bally's or Bellagio. I was surprised last trip to even find a good one at PH! Also, the CVS on LV Blvd south hehe.


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## John Cummings (Oct 2, 2009)

spatenfloot said:


> I play deuces wild and can usually find a decent number of good paytable machines, usually at Bally's or Bellagio. I was surprised last trip to even find a good one at PH! Also, the CVS on LV Blvd south hehe.



I am very familiar with Bally's as we stay at the Paris. I found the same or better pay tables at the Paris and it is a lot nicer place to play than Bally's even though they are connected and both are Harrah's properties.

Full Pay Deuces Wild are extremely rare and you won't find them at Bally's. Full Pay Deuces Wild pays 5:1 for four of a kind. What they often do is up the payback for a straight flush and 5 of a kind, but pay only 4:1 for four of a kind. This lowers the payback considerably as 4 of a kind contributes the most to the payback of any hand. I haven't seen 5:1 since they took out the Bob Dancer machines at the Silverton and a few years ago at the Barbary Coast which no longer exists.

We are going to Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas in a month for 3 nights. We are staying at Caesar's Palace rather than the Paris because we got invited to the Bette Midler show at Caesar's. I have never played Video Poker at Caesar's so I will check it out. If it is too bad, we will go to the Paris and I can play Shockwave. We will also be staying 3 additional nights at the Silverton because they invited us. That is probably where I will play the most.


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## Courts (Oct 3, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *John Cummings *
> We are going to Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas *in a month for 3 nights*. We are staying at Caesar's Palace rather than the Paris because we got invited to the *Bette Midler show *at Caesar's.


We'll be at the PH for five nights but going to see Bette. I'm a little concerned about getting back to the PH in a timely manner as we are leaving the following morning. 

Someone earlier mentioned as much as 45 minute wait for cab after a show.

.


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## Karen G (Oct 4, 2009)

Courts said:


> We'll be at the PH for five nights but going to see Bette. I'm a little concerned about getting back to the PH in a timely manner as we are leaving the following morning.


It's not a bad walk from Caesars Palace to Planet Hollywood. I think you could walk it faster than taking a cab.


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## goaliemn (Oct 4, 2009)

Courts said:


> We'll be at the PH for five nights but going to see Bette. I'm a little concerned about getting back to the PH in a timely manner as we are leaving the following morning.
> 
> Someone earlier mentioned as much as 45 minute wait for cab after a show.


PH is almost across the street from Caesars.  I'd venture to say within 2 blocks..


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## John Cummings (Oct 4, 2009)

Courts said:


> We'll be at the PH for five nights but going to see Bette. I'm a little concerned about getting back to the PH in a timely manner as we are leaving the following morning.
> 
> Someone earlier mentioned as much as 45 minute wait for cab after a show.
> 
> .



Unless you are not able to, walking from Caesar's to Planet Hollywood is much better than taking a cab. It is not that far and it is very safe in that area. I would cross Flamingo Ave. from Caesar's to the Bellagio corner and then cross the strip to the Bally's corner. That way, you can stop for a few minutes to get an excellent view of the Bellagio Water show up close and listen to the music that accompanies the show. They have pedestrian bridges that cross Flamingo Ave. and the strip so you will be above the street which gives an excellent view of the show. They have the free shows every 15 minutes. From Bally's you just walk past the Paris and there you are at Planet Hollywood. Granted it does seem shorter than it is but it really is an easy walk and there will be lots and lots of other people walking. It should only take 15 minutes to walk to the PH plus whatever time you stop to see the water show or whatever.


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## Courts (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks.

Heard so many people talk about how close places look but how far they really are when walking.  

.


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## John Cummings (Oct 5, 2009)

Courts said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Heard so many people talk about how close places look but how far they really are when walking.
> 
> .



That is true but in the case of Caesar's and Planet Hollywood, they aren't that far apart.


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## Robert D (Oct 6, 2009)

To get back to the subject of this thread, I asked my casino host at Caesar's about the rumor of Harrah's taking over Planet Hollywood. He said the chances are pretty good and that Harrah's bought a lot of PH's debt. I don't think he has any inside info but it probably depends on how bad things are for PH.  The worse things get for them the more the likelihood that Harrah's takes it over.  Personally, I'd like to see it happen as it would add another quality property to Harrah's Vegas portfolio and give us another nice place to stay besides Paris and Caesar's.


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## John Cummings (Oct 6, 2009)

Robert D said:


> To get back to the subject of this thread, I asked my casino host at Caesar's about the rumor of Harrah's taking over Planet Hollywood. He said the chances are pretty good and that Harrah's bought a lot of PH's debt. I don't think he has any inside info but it probably depends on how bad things are for PH.  The worse things get for them the more the likelihood that Harrah's takes it over.  Personally, I'd like to see it happen as it would add another quality property to Harrah's Vegas portfolio and give us another nice place to stay besides Paris and Caesar's.



Being a Harrah's Diamond card member, I agree to some extent. However, it is not a good thing that one or two companies dominate the Las Vegas strip. In acquiring Planet Hollywood, Harrah's will have 10 casinos in Las Vegas with 9 of them clustered in the mid-strip area. Most of the others are owned by MGM.


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## JeffW (Oct 6, 2009)

John Cummings said:


> ...In acquiring Planet Hollywood, Harrah's will have 10 casinos in Las Vegas with 9 of them clustered in the mid-strip area. Most of the others are owned by MGM.



Good then that the Nevada Casino Control Commission doesn't seem to have a problem with that.  

Jeff


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## Robert D (Oct 6, 2009)

John, you're a notch above me, I'm just Platinum but I don't play the machines, only craps which seems to make it harder to get to diamond. I'm not worried about Harrah's and MGM having a monopoly in Vegas.  They already dominate the strip but there seems to be plenty of competion from Venetian, Wynn, and the smaller places.  You might notice the affect more than me in that the full pay video poker machines are gone, but I don't think there were many of them in Harrah's or MGM casinos before they were so dominant.


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## John Cummings (Oct 6, 2009)

Robert D said:


> John, you're a notch above me, I'm just Platinum but I don't play the machines, only craps which seems to make it harder to get to diamond. I'm not worried about Harrah's and MGM having a monopoly in Vegas.  They already dominate the strip but there seems to be plenty of competion from Venetian, Wynn, and the smaller places.  You might notice the affect more than me in that the full pay video poker machines are gone, but I don't think there were many of them in Harrah's or MGM casinos before they were so dominant.



I don't really consider the Wynn properties to be competitive with the  Harrah's properties as the Wynn properties are considerably more upscale. You are correct about not having full pay VP machines at the strip casinos. You have to go off strip to find those and even then they are pretty rare. The last time I saw full pay VP machines on the strip was at the Barbary Coast where they had full pay Deuces Wild VP a few years ago. The Barbary Coast is now Bill's owned by Harrah's. There is some variance between the Harrah's casinos with the Flamingo having the worst VP machines.


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## kjd (Oct 7, 2009)

I don't know where all of this is going but it seems that corporate greed has gotten LV in a lot of trouble.  I was recently suprised to see that Harrah's was running an Indian casino in Cherokee NC.  In LV as elsewhere, these corporate giants have shaved the gaming odds, devalued the reward point systems, raised prices for food and drinks, fired casino employees (no boxmen anymore at Strip casino crap tables) and have generally done everything to drive the average gambler away.  They now wonder why they are losing money and blame the recession for their troubles.  

The latest egregious example that I saw in NC was the use of a digital blackjack table that was operated by a live dealer via means of several buttions.  There were no cards and no shoe.  There was a claim that the digital blackjack shoe contained six decks but who knows.  There was also a virtual crap table that had no dealers.  Only a TV screen. Gamblers sat at a table for six players.  An on-screen dealer presided over the action.  Payoffs were given by a bar coded receipt that came from a slot under the table.

Is this what we have to look forward to in LV?


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 7, 2009)

*Are The MBAs Ruining The Casinos ?*




kjd said:


> The latest egregious example that I saw in NC was the use of a digital blackjack table that was operated by a live dealer via means of several buttions.  There were no cards and no shoe.  There was a claim that the digital blackjack shoe contained six decks but who knows.  There was also a virtual crap table that had no dealers.  Only a TV screen. Gamblers sat at a table for six players.  An on-screen dealer presided over the action.  Payoffs were given by a bar coded receipt that came from a slot under the table.
> 
> Is this what we have to look forward to in LV?


For slot machines, Las Vegas is already there. 

Can TV screens & payoff chits be far behind for the rest of the Las Vegas casino games ? 

Shux, when there's no more real craps & no more real blackjack & no more real slot machines, the customers will be able to experience most of the same phony casino ambiance by staying home & playing via Internet if they are so inclined. 

BTW, when we were in Reno recently, the Circus Circus Casino had banners advertising that it has the only real coin slot machines in town.  Presumably all those at the other casinos deal exclusively in bar-code chits.  However that may be, even at the Circus Circus, most of the slot machines already pay off in chits, with only a few dozen actually accepting & paying off via coins.  So it goes. 

One philosophical question is _Are They Still Slot Machines When They No Longer Have Coin Slots_ ?  

The Chief Of Staff & I have never been much into any kind of gambling, in or out of casinos.  The advent of all-virtual games in the casinos will erase what little residual interest in gaming we may have left. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## John Cummings (Oct 7, 2009)

kjd said:


> The latest egregious example that I saw in NC was the use of a digital blackjack table that was operated by a live dealer via means of several buttions.  There were no cards and no shoe.  There was a claim that the digital blackjack shoe contained six decks but who knows.  There was also a virtual crap table that had no dealers.  Only a TV screen. Gamblers sat at a table for six players.  An on-screen dealer presided over the action.  Payoffs were given by a bar coded receipt that came from a slot under the table.
> 
> Is this what we have to look forward to in LV?



Before you blame Harrah's, make sure that the gaming compacts ( yes, they are called compacts, not contracts ) the state of NC has with the Indian tribes does not restrict the type of games. In California, the Indian casinos are not allowed to have any dice games by state law. Therefore they invented California craps which is craps without dice. Many other states have many quirky restrictions on the games allowed at the Indian casinos. In California, prohibiting dice games is the only restriction.


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## John Cummings (Oct 7, 2009)

AwayWeGo said:


> [SIZE="3One philosophical question is _Are They Still Slot Machines When They No Longer Have Coin Slots_ ?
> 
> The Chief Of Staff & I have never been much into any kind of gambling, in or out of casinos.  The advent of all-virtual games in the casinos will erase what little residual interest in gaming we may have left.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​[/FONT][/SIZE]



The vast majority of slot players do not agree with you. I don't know of any slot player that wants the coin machines back. Who wants to wait for hopper fills, hand payouts, etc.? Who enjoys getting their hands filthy from the coins? The coin machines greatly restrict the ability to move from machine to machine which is important not to mention having to go to the restroom.

Video slots are just as much a slot machine as the reel machines. They are all controlled in the same manner. Slot machines, like so many other things are advancing with the new technology. Prior to the Video slots, I pretty well only played Video Poker as I found the standard reel slots to be very boring. Now I play both Video slots and Video Poker equally as much. It is obvious that the vast majority of folks prefer the new Video slots. Just go in any casino and you will see that very few people are playing the standard reel slots compared to the video ones. People that used to play the $1.00 reel slots now play the penny video slots but still bet the same or more. Those standard reel machines are still there but are usually not being played.


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## AwayWeGo (Oct 7, 2009)

*Vast Majority, Shmasst Majority.*




John Cummings said:


> The vast majority of slot players do not agree with you. I don't know of any slot player that wants the coin machines back. Who wants to wait for hopper fills, hand payouts, etc.? Who enjoys getting their hands filthy from the coins? The coin machines greatly restrict the ability to move from machine to machine which is important not to mention having to go to the restroom.


I'll leave it to the MBAs to analyze what the vast majority likes, while I question their assumptions about modern biz. models that simply write off the preferences of a quirky minority. 

Meanwhile, I still like real cards & real dice & real chips & real coins -- although those $1 cartwheel tokens are OK.  (But it wouldn't hurt to have penny machines that actually take pennies.  Ditto dimes & ditto Sacagaweas, etc.)

The bigtime casinos are so large that they have plenty of space to accommodate coinless machines for the vast majority _and_ real-money slot machines for us quirky old timers. 

Only an MBA could think in terms of crowding out a portion of the (potential) customer base via _Our Way Or The Highway_ styles of biz. modeling.  I mean, shux, even the supermarkets let customers choose paper or plastic. 

BTW, some (most?) of the coinless chit-spewing slot machines are set up to provide coin-drop sound effects for small & medium & large payoffs -- you know, _tonk-tonk-tonk-tonk-tonk-tonk-tonk-tonk-tonk-tonk-tonk-tonk-tonk-tonk-tonk_ -- even though nothing's physically dropping into the hopper, & on the newer models there might not even be any hopper.  

Times change, eh ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## John Cummings (Oct 7, 2009)

AwayWeGo said:


> Meanwhile, I still like real cards & real dice & real chips & real coins -- although those $1 cartwheel tokens are OK.  (But it wouldn't hurt to have penny machines that actually take pennies.  Ditto dimes...



I have to assume that you don't play slot machines or you are joking. So I am going to have to carry several hundred pennies and feed 25, 50, 100, 300 or so for each spin? Wow, that sure sounds like fun.

Most penny machines are 20-100 lines

Dime machines are a mute point because they are few and far between.

I can't imagine anybody that would refuse to play the slots just because they no longer take coins. In any event, the coin machines aren't coming back and the VAST majority of slot players are happy about that. To compare it with plastic and paper is absurd. That is comparing apples with oranges. The paper only slot machines benefit both the casino and the player.

As far as using real dice or real cards, that is only an issue outside of Nevada and is usually dictated by state laws, not the casinos.


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## Sandy VDH (Oct 7, 2009)

Coins, who want coins.  In this day of bacterial concerns, I want to handle money less and less, coin and paper.  Imagine how many hands money goes throught without being disinfected at all.  

I am very happy with the chit program.


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## kjd (Oct 7, 2009)

State gaming laws and agreements negotiated with Indian tribes do dictate casino action in many cases.  Usually, the casino cooks up a format to circumvent the laws.  Such as virtual craps.  However, one must recognize that these electronic mutations also serve the interests of casino operators.

Blackjack dealers are supposed to deal a certain number of hands per hour.  Since the odds of all games favor the casino it's in the casino's interest to deal the greatest number of hands per hour.  More profit for the casino.

I believe that digital blackjack will result in more hands being delt within a given period of time.  If, in the case of virtual craps you can also replace employees at the same time, it's even more attractive.  Technology may be coming to a casino near you.


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## John Cummings (Oct 7, 2009)

kjd said:


> State gaming laws and agreements negotiated with Indian tribes do dictate casino action in many cases.  Usually, the casino cooks up a format to circumvent the laws.  Such as virtual craps.  However, one must recognize that these electronic mutations also serve the interests of casino operators.
> 
> Blackjack dealers are supposed to deal a certain number of hands per hour.  Since the odds of all games favor the casino it's in the casino's interest to deal the greatest number of hands per hour.  More profit for the casino.
> 
> I believe that digital blackjack will result in more hands being delt within a given period of time.  If, in the case of virtual craps you can also replace employees at the same time, it's even more attractive.  Technology may be coming to a casino near you.



It depends whether players accept it or not. In Nevada, where the games are not restricted, it probably will not fly. Of course where you have the whole Las Vegas strip dominated by Harrah's and MGM then who knows. In California, almost nobody plays California craps even though there is no choice if you want to play craps. The craps tables are usually empty even though the casinos are packed. In Nevada, I doubt you will see such a radical change as you described for Blackjack.

I welcome the changes to the slots that technology has brought. The games are a lot more entertaining to play than the old machines.

It was the Indian casinos that were the first to use new technology. They had the coinless machines years before Nevada. They also pioneered the Video Slots long before they appeared in Nevada. Most of this was dictated by state laws. There were Indian casinos in California long before they were legalized. The Indian casinos had their own slots that were typically 8 line video machines. They got around the law prohibiting slot machines by saying they were no different than the lottery machines. We played these in California and Idaho. When they legalized them in California, then the casinos got the same machines as Nevada with a few keeping the Indian 8 line machines as well. We preferred the old Indian 8 line machines. I won some pretty hefty jackpots on them including $97,000. and $22,000. jackpots at Barona in San Diego county.

It is interesting that even today, many of the California casinos have more advanced technology than in Nevada. I am not referring to the games themselves but in other areas such as handling rewards, slot locators, etc.


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## Robert D (Oct 7, 2009)

kjd said:


> I don't know where all of this is going but it seems that corporate greed has gotten LV in a lot of trouble.  I was recently suprised to see that Harrah's was running an Indian casino in Cherokee NC.  In LV as elsewhere, these corporate giants have shaved the gaming odds, devalued the reward point systems, raised prices for food and drinks, fired casino employees (no boxmen anymore at Strip casino crap tables) and have generally done everything to drive the average gambler away.  They now wonder why they are losing money and blame the recession for their troubles.
> 
> The latest egregious example that I saw in NC was the use of a digital blackjack table that was operated by a live dealer via means of several buttions.  There were no cards and no shoe.  There was a claim that the digital blackjack shoe contained six decks but who knows.  There was also a virtual crap table that had no dealers.  Only a TV screen. Gamblers sat at a table for six players.  An on-screen dealer presided over the action.  Payoffs were given by a bar coded receipt that came from a slot under the table.
> 
> Is this what we have to look forward to in LV?



If the casinos had their way, everything would be a machine and there would be no live games like craps or black jack because it saves them a ton of money. The machine doesn't get sick, not show up for work, and doesn't get paid by the hour.  Also, the through put is a lot more with machines vs. live games. From what I can tell, Harrah's is leading the charge into replacing live games with machines. One of the first things they did when they bought Caesar's was to take out some craps tables in the Forum casino and install an electronic roulette game that has one dealer spinning the ball for up to12-15 players on digital terminals.  If they ever replace the craps tables with a machine, my gambling days are over.


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## JeffW (Oct 8, 2009)

Every company will, to some degree, try to reduce costs, at least until there's some pushback.  Lots of companies outsourced their call centers to India, but in the past few years, some have moved them back to the US - customers weren't happy speaking with "Mike" from India.  Similarly, Walmart took a hit on their (Chinese) toys when they had the issues with (lead paint?) a year ago or so.

There are some 'utilitarian' casinos, where there's not a lot of style and ambiance, it's just gambling, with perhaps a better return to the customer.  [If you look at the % returns for say slot machines, I think it's almost alwasys the older casinos that have the highest return, never the big, glamorous ones.]

There will probably be some casinos that try 'dealerless' games.  There's certainly a market for that.  But casinos trying to promote a gambling atmosphere, will probably still have humans working the games.

Jeff


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