# KL Presentation offers going down?



## letsgosteelers (Sep 13, 2014)

My mom is on the Big Island this week, she auditioned for the WOF show which is taping there this week.

I told her to avoid the timeshare presentation offers at all costs.

ugg, just got a text that she is attending a presentation @ KingsLand on the 17th and getting 40k HH points!


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## letsgosteelers (Sep 19, 2014)

Holy toledo...

Just talked to my mom and she said they tried to sell her a 100K timeshare / program and then a 50k offering..

WTH?? 

They asked the typical where do you want to go, dream trip and she said African Safari, or Bali.

She said the 100k offering had a resort in Bali but I thought that was just a hotel.  She said the package was a new package of resorts and hotels

I don't know what the details were as far as points, bonus etc but has anyone heard of such a program?


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## Talent312 (Sep 19, 2014)

What she may be referring to is a group of 82 hotels that Hilton classifies as international resorts, which includes one in Bali -- see http://www3.hilton.com/en/resorts/list.html  These are a step above the standard hotel, but they're still under the umbrella of Hilton Hotels -- not HGVC. Or some other resort collection that she can burn her points with. But whatever, I would say, there's no way that spending that kind of $$ would ever make it worthwhile... there's simply no break even point to be had. 

 .


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## holdaer (Sep 19, 2014)

letsgosteelers said:


> Holy toledo...
> 
> Just talked to my mom and she said they tried to sell her a 100K timeshare / program and then a 50k offering..
> 
> ...





The sales rep could be referring to Anantara Vacation Club Bali Seminyak.  It appears HGVC has added another affiliated resort to the list of available resorts to members.  One bedroom pool villa requires less points than GW or KL. 

http://www.hiltongrandvacations.com/Member.aspx#search/index


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## Ron98GT (Sep 19, 2014)

Talent312 said:


> What she may be referring to is a group of 82 hotels that Hilton classifies as international resorts, which includes the one in Bali -- see http://www3.hilton.com/en/resorts/list.html  These are a step above the standard hotel, but they're still under the umbrella of Hilton Hotels -- not HGVC.
> 
> They may have told her that they can be booked using HGVC points or HGVC bonus points (or HHonors points). But using HGVC points, either by conversion to HHonors or directly, is a fairly poor use of HGVC points becuz, they convert them to HHonors points at a poor rates.  HGVC points are best used for their primary purpose -- booking HGVC resorts -- which these resorts are not.
> 
> ...


Probably referring to this:

http://clubtraveler.hgvclub.com/you...ubtraveler&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=july


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## Ron98GT (Sep 19, 2014)

letsgosteelers said:


> Holy toledo...
> 
> Just talked to my mom and she said they tried to sell her a 100K timeshare / program and then a 50k offering..
> 
> ...


I assume you mean $100,000.00, like in dollars, not points. 

Ouch


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Bali_bombings

I think I'll skip Bali.


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## rfc0001 (Sep 19, 2014)

Ron98GT said:


> Probably referring to this:
> http://clubtraveler.hgvclub.com/you...ubtraveler&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=july


I'm confused, is Antara available to all members, as that article states, or just Elite Premier (34,000 point direct purchases) as http://hgvcelite.com/Elite.aspx states? Assuming the latter, that's probably how they are pitching 34,000 point purchases. Problem is, with the bonus points that would come with that purchase--approx. 145,000 (1.45 BP/$), you would have 185,000 points to burn in your first 2 years -- you better be retired and a world traveler if you plan on using that many points effectively  Much better to buy small chunks as you need the BPs IMO, which is the only way you are going to get the value out of the BPs worth the premium of paying direct (and yes, there is case where this makes sense -- probably not this one).


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## letsgosteelers (Sep 19, 2014)

Ron98GT said:


> I assume you mean $100,000.00, like in dollars, not points.
> 
> Ouch



yes sorry, $100,000 & then $50,000!!


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## SmithOp (Sep 19, 2014)

List price for the 14,400 pt units is $100k, first level Elite at 14k.


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## rfc0001 (Sep 19, 2014)

SmithOp said:


> List price for the 14,400 pt units is $100k, first level Elite at 14k.


What the Fish? I was just at a KL sales preso in July, armed with Excel, so wrote down all the prices. 14,400 KL1 was going for $86,500 -- still not 34,000 points though   BTW, the 14,400 pt contract is the highest CPP in all of Waikoloa (lowest MF/pt in all of HGVC though at $0.10/pt).  The lowest CPP was Bay Club at $5/pt: 
        4800pts  $24,120 $5.03CPP


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## SmithOp (Sep 19, 2014)

rfc0001 said:


> What the Fish? I was just at a KL sales preso in July, armed with Excel, so wrote down all the prices. 14,400 KL1 was going for $86,500 -- still not 34,000 points though




Is that the 2br premium?  Did you price the 3br?

I have the price sheet at home, I'll upload it when I get a chance.


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## rfc0001 (Sep 19, 2014)

SmithOp said:


> Is that the 2br premium? Did you price the 3br?


Yes, 2 Bdrm Premier Platinum Season:
Platinum 2 Bdrm Premier 14,400pts $86,500 $6.01CPP

Incl $700 closing cost


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## 1Kflyerguy (Sep 19, 2014)

rfc0001 said:


> Yes, 2 Bdrm Premier Platinum Season:
> Platinum 2 Bdrm Premier 14,400pts $86,500 $6.01CPP
> 
> Incl $700 closing cost



Guess there go my thoughts of possibly trading in my 5000 point LV strip property towards a KL purchase... It would be nice to reach elite status... but the math just does not seem to work...


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## holdaer (Sep 19, 2014)

rfc0001 said:


> I'm confused, is Antara available to all members, as that article states, or just Elite Premier (34,000 point direct purchases) as http://hgvcelite.com/Elite.aspx states? Assuming the latter, that's probably how they are pitching 34,000 point purchases. Problem is, with the bonus points that would come with that purchase--approx. 50,000 (1.45 BP/pt), you would have 117,300 points to burn in your first 2 years -- you better be retired and a world traveler if you plan on using that many points effectively  Much better to buy small chunks as you need the BPs IMO, which is the only way you are going to get the value out of the BPs worth the premium of paying direct (and yes, there is case where this makes sense -- probably not this one).



Looks like Anantara resorts are now available to ALL HGVC club members.  Not just Elite.

http://www.hgvclubprogram.com/resort/anantara-vacation-club-bali-seminyak-2/


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## presley (Sep 19, 2014)

1Kflyerguy said:


> Guess there go my thoughts of possibly trading in my 5000 point LV strip property towards a KL purchase... It would be nice to reach elite status... but the math just does not seem to work...



The HGVC Elite doesn't offer much.  The benefits are in hhonors.  For $75./year you can have instant gold status in hhonors with the American Express card.  Or, just have the regular no fee one and charge $20K/year on it and get gold hhonors.


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## rfc0001 (Sep 19, 2014)

holdaer said:


> Looks like Anantara resorts are now available to ALL HGVC club members. Not just Elite.
> 
> http://www.hgvclubprogram.com/resort/anantara-vacation-club-bali-seminyak-2/


Wonder if there are more resorts that you have access to if you are Elite? Seems HGVC is in the process of acquiring all of them anyways, so probably a temporary benefit even if so.





presley said:


> The HGVC Elite doesn't offer much. The benefits are in hhonors. For $75./year you can have instant gold status in hhonors with the American Express card. Or, just have the regular no fee one and charge $20K/year on it and get gold hhonors.


Other tangible benefits are free 7-day reservation fees, $49 for all other reservations, 10% Open Season discount, use of KL pools when staying at Bay Club/Kohala; Elite Plus adds: all fess reduced to $49, free room upgrade to next room type (uses less points for same reservation), convert _current_ year HGVC points to HH, 15% Open Season discount; Elite Premier adds: All fees waived, upgrade fees waived, reserve specific rooms, free concierge service, free limo service, and 30% Open Season discount. For me, The KL upgrade and free room upgrades are _potentially _valuable, if you can buy direct for the same cost _after subtracting the value of the BPs _(by maximizing the value of the BPs). Case and point, a $15K HGVC purchase comes with 25,000 BPs -- which you can get 5 2 bdrm weeks in DVC for (any season) -- worth $10K in peak season, $6K on average (_even based on renting DVC points, not paying direct _) -- so right there you are getting a $30K value for your $15K purchase. So, _if you plan ahead and only buy the BPs_ _you need_ (which is really what you are buying when paying a premium for direct) you basically end up getting your actual ownership for less than resale (or free if you are really good at planning ahead). The key is plan out your vacations and point usage prior to buying direct, and only buy what you need, when you need it -- small chunks at a time, knowing you can always trade in your purchase and get more BPs. Of course, most people don't actually use their BPs and end up converting them to HH points which is a really bad value. However, if you do it with eyes wide open, it _can _make sense.


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## letsgosteelers (Sep 19, 2014)

so $100k compared to....

Hilton Grand Waikikian 2 Bed Premier Platinum 14400 Gold Crown $42,000.00 

Hilton King’s Land Premier 2 Bed Platinum 14400 Gold Crown $27,500.00 

Hilton King’s Land Premier 2 Bed Gold 14400 Gold Crown $29,500.00 


sure no bonus pts but looks like you are paying for those points


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## rfc0001 (Sep 19, 2014)

letsgosteelers said:


> so $100k compared to....
> 
> Hilton Grand Waikikian 2 Bed Premier Platinum 14400 Gold Crown $42,000.00
> 
> ...


When buying BPs (what the direct premium is actually buying), the actual points on the contract only impact the value of the underlying contract. So, in my illustration, you buy 25K BPs for $17K, worth $30K conservatively, and still have a residual value of that contract of $5K. $15 investment for $35K return in 4 years (you have 4 years to use BPs if deposited with RCI) -- pretty good deal.

To get the exact same points resale to cover the same 25,000 BP + 11,600 base points usage in 4 years (36,600 points total = 9,150/yr), you would have to pay $18,300. So, buying direct was a cheaper way to get the same points. Agree, you end up with fewer points, but as long as you only ever buy the BPs/points you can actually consume over 4 years, then you can keep upgrading and getting more BPs over time -- you can also buy-down your original contract for a lower CPP when the market goes down-- this is what I did -- I bought in LV for $4/pt, then upgraded to a _lower_ CPP at KL1 for $3.41/pt (and got more bonus points). Then added on at $6/pt for the BPs (exact scenario outlined above), then will upgrade to a larger pt contract at a lower CPP when the economy hits the skids in 2-3 years and get more BPs at the same time -- and get Elite in the process. It's complex, sure, but it's not _entirely _crazy .


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## SmithOp (Sep 19, 2014)

rfc0001 said:


> It's complex, sure, but it's not _entirely _crazy .




You know, it sounds like a timeshare sales pitch. I suppose if you can trade up to a nice CPP hats off to you.  I wouldn't want the hassles of booking and renting all those BPs but there are a lot of people on here making money renting.


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## rfc0001 (Sep 20, 2014)

SmithOp said:


> You know, it sounds like a timeshare sales pitch. I suppose if you can trade up to a nice CPP hats off to you. I wouldn't want the hassles of booking and renting all those BPs but there are a lot of people on here making money renting.


I'm not renting RCI (which isn't allowed)--I'm using the BPs to deposit into RCI to book DVC in lieu of renting DVC points to book direct -- which would cost $30K, _on average _(and would be roughly 50% more if you booked direct, paying cash), plus I still have $5K residual value in the contract even if I dump it. However, the better value is to get HGVC to credit you the full value towards an upgrade, even though you drained it's value by using all the BPs, and get more BPs and possibly lower CPP if you bought high. You can have your cake and eat it to. No doubt, both paths get you to the same place in the end (you can always buy more points resale), and are roughly equivalent in total cost, which is why I chose direct since there are some tangible benefits all other things being equal.


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## SmithOp (Sep 20, 2014)

rfc0001 said:


> I'm not renting RCI (which isn't allowed)--I'm using the BPs to deposit into RCI to book DVC in lieu of renting DVC points to book direct -- which would cost $30K, _on average _(and would be roughly 50% more if you booked direct, paying cash), plus I still have $5K residual value in the contract even if I dump it. However, the better value is to get HGVC to credit you the full value towards an upgrade, even though you drained it's value by using all the BPs, and get more BPs and possibly lower CPP if you bought high. You can have your cake and eat it to. No doubt, both paths get you to the same place in the end (you can always buy more points resale), and are roughly equivalent in total cost, which is why I chose direct since there are some tangible benefits all other things being equal.




I thought you were plowing the profit back into the next trade up somehow...hmmm how about renting club res booked with the BPs.

Do you go to DVC that much?  It would be money never spent for us, we have no desire to stay at Disney.  We had an only, now he's off to college we prefer locations sans kids.


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## 1Kflyerguy (Sep 20, 2014)

rfc0001 said:


> Wonder if there are more resorts that you have access to if you are Elite? Seems HGVC is in the process of acquiring all of them anyways, so probably a temporary benefit even if sther tangible benefits are free 7-day reservation fees, $49 for all other reservations, 10% Open Season discount, use of KL pools when staying at Bay Club/Kohala; Elite Plus adds: all fess reduced to $49, free room upgrade to next room type (uses less points for same reservation), convert _current_ year HGVC points to HH, 15% Open Season discount; .



Those are benefits i was looking at, they are nice, but only worth so much.. I may talk with HGVC next year when i go to buy more points, but remain doubtful i would find a deal that works for me.  I like the bonus point idea, but it seems like a lot of work, and i have limited time to vacation, so might be hard to actually use all the bonus points before they expire...


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## rfc0001 (Sep 21, 2014)

SmithOp said:


> I thought you were plowing the profit back into the next trade up somehow...hmmm how about renting club res booked with the BPs.


Club res aren't worth that much--Hilton rents KL direct for about $1400/wk--barely covers your MFs (argh). However, since we own DVC as well (to supplement days, discount AP, etc.), by displacing DVC weeks with HGVC RCI exchanges, we could easily rent the displaced DVC points for almost $5K/wk (on top of saving $6K by not renting direct)





> Do you go to DVC that much? It would be money never spent for us, we have no desire to stay at Disney. We had an only, now he's off to college we prefer locations sans kids.


Yeah, we go 2-3 times a year since discovering RCI exchanges, and since using points for DVC is the best value. Obviously this specific use is only valuable if you are going to use it -- there are other good uses of BPs, but no where near the same value -- which is where the whole direct purchase decision hinges -- what you use the BPs for -- most people don't use them and at best convert them to HH, which isn't worth it (you can easily determine the value the HH points will save you, which isn't much). However, if you are very planful, and only buy small increments of HGVC, getting only the BPs you can actually use (and use them well), then upgrade and repeat the process, it can be an OK deal, and you get the consolation prize of Elite/Elite Plus after enough upgrades. While it sounds like a lot of work, at least the latter part is what most HGVC direct purchasers do (buy small chunks, get the BPs, then upgrade and repeat).


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## presley (Sep 21, 2014)

1Kflyerguy said:


> Those are benefits i was looking at, they are nice, but only worth so much..


They certainly aren't worth $10K or more.  For those who don't travel most of the year, it would take forever or never to break even on the financial benefits of buying more from the developer for the very small discounts.  I had elite and decided to sell and lose the benefits because they weren't worth the cost of my MFs, but I do have multiple contracts.  

If someone really wants to wheel and deal buying from the developer for bonus points and they have the time for that and the vacation time, it can work out in a rare circumstance, I suppose.  Personally, I wouldn't spend tens of thousands for HGVC to trade for other resorts.  I know some do, but since there are never any guarantees with trading, it's not something I'd mess with.


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## rfc0001 (Sep 21, 2014)

presley said:


> They certainly aren't worth $10K or more. For those who don't travel most of the year, it would take forever or never to break even on the financial benefits of buying more from the developer for the very small discounts. I had elite and decided to sell and lose the benefits because they weren't worth the cost of my MFs, but I do have multiple contracts


I can easily make a hard case for Elite Plus being worth $10K:


*Free room type upgrades for Elite Plus
*Let's take a simple example -- the difference between a 1 Bdrm Plus and Premier at KL1 is 3,300 points for the week.  With 24,400 points, you could do that 2.5 times per year, so save 8,250 pts/year, perpetually.  To get that same benefit with resale, you'ld have to buy 8,250 additional points worth *$16,500 *resale ($2/pt avg), plus pay an average of *$1,650/yr *($0.20 MF/pt avg.) 
*Free 7 day reservations*
With 24,000 points, and an average stay of 5000pts, you'll be making an average of 5 1 week reservations per year -- that's saves you *$250/yr *even assuming $50 online reservations. 
*$49 transaction fees*
Assuming you deposit, rescue, or convert at least once per year, that will save you a whopping *$25/year * 
*Open Season 15% discount
*_Average _Open Season rate is $200/night, so $1400/wk -- so benefit is worth *$210/yr *per week (could be worth _up to _$10K/yr)
 So, right there you have savings of *$16,500* plus *$2,135/yr *savings for Elite Plus benefits.


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## SmithOp (Sep 21, 2014)

rfc0001 said:


> Club res aren't worth that much--Hilton rents KL direct for about $1400/wk--barely covers your MFs (argh). However, since we own DVC as well (to supplement days, discount AP, etc.), by displacing DVC weeks with HGVC RCI exchanges, we could easily rent the displaced DVC points for almost $5K/wk (on top of saving $6K by not renting direct)Yeah, we go 2-3 times a year since discovering RCI exchanges, and since using points for DVC is the best value. Obviously this specific use is only valuable if you are going to use it -- there are other good uses of BPs, but no where near the same value -- which is where the whole direct purchase decision hinges -- what you use the BPs for -- most people don't use them and at best convert them to HH, which isn't worth it (you can easily determine the value the HH points will save you, which isn't much). However, if you are very planful, and only buy small increments of HGVC, getting only the BPs you can actually use (and use them well), then upgrade and repeat the process, it can be an OK deal, and you get the consolation prize of Elite/Elite Plus after enough upgrades. While it sounds like a lot of work, at least the latter part is what most HGVC direct purchasers do (buy small chunks, get the BPs, then upgrade and repeat).




Thanks for the detailed explanation of how you are working it.  I have my eye on these KL 14k units to move up to a better CPP, still evaluating all the options, developer trade up, resale, or just pay cash for more stays and keep what I have.  I retired, then went back to work, but it convinced me I no longer need a career.  I'm cutting back to part time work from home so I can work while traveling.


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## rfc0001 (Sep 21, 2014)

SmithOp said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation of how you are working it. I have my eye on these KL 14k units to move up to a better CPP, still evaluating all the options, developer trade up, resale, or just pay cash for more stays and keep what I have. I retired, then went back to work, but it convinced me I no longer need a career. I'm cutting back to part time work from home so I can work while traveling.


I'm still in the throes of work and getting 3-4 weeks vacation around the kids school breaks--so have the time to gradually step up my contracts every 4-5 years and milk the BPs along the way. I, like most TUGers, lamented buying direct for a _long _time, made the best of it by trading up to a lower CPP, then recently made the surprising decision to buy a second contract direct (wasn't worth trading "up" since the CPP was double). I ran the numbers long and heard, and basically decided if I could milk the BPs then upgrade to a lower CPP and more BPs when the economy tanks (which it will -- we are in a bubble), then I'd end up at with Elite and can use the KL pool benefit while staying at the larger (and lower point) Bay Club, along with the fee savings. My ultimate goal is to end up at 24,000 pts (and Elite Plus) by retirement, then milk those benefits (15% open season discount, free room type upgrades).

 Russ


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## SmithOp (Sep 21, 2014)

Here's that old list price sheet, fixed and event weeks were higher. Pg 3

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=BEC93D7D15745123!183&app=WordPdf


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## rfc0001 (Sep 21, 2014)

SmithOp said:


> Here's that old list price sheet, fixed and event weeks were higher. Pg 3
> 
> https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=BEC93D7D15745123!183&app=WordPdf


 Cool, thanks...curious when/where these are from ? Look list "list prices" maybe part of some original filing?


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## SmithOp (Sep 21, 2014)

rfc0001 said:


> Cool, thanks...curious when/where these are from ? Look list "list prices" maybe part of some original filing?




It was in the documentation I got when I purchased pre construction in March 08.


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## rfc0001 (Sep 21, 2014)

SmithOp said:


> It was in the documentation I got when I purchased pre construction in March 08.


Hmm, I think those are like the rack rates at hotels.  I purchased in April 2008 a 8,700 pt 2 Bdrm Plus for $29,700, whereas that shows $57,900 as the price for that unit.


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