# Discussion about forum rules - moved



## chapjim (Oct 20, 2017)

pnappleprincess said:


> Oh - it used to be that only the public responses in the wanted thread were bound by the $100/night rule.  Apologies to all if this is no longer the case!



It's asymmetric.  Gotta be less than $100/night in the Offered section but you can ask for anything in the Wanted section.


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 21, 2017)

chapjim said:


> It's asymmetric. Gotta be less than $100/night in the Offered section but you can ask for anything in the Wanted section.



NOT TRUE  - $100 per night limit in both forums.


----------



## chapjim (Oct 21, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> NOT TRUE  - $100 per night limit in both forums.



OP is asking for a unit that under no reasonable circumstances would rent for $100 per night.  That amounts to an invitation to take negotiations off line to conversations.  It has been explained that way and sanctioned here by moderators.

If OP had said she'd pay $400/night, I presume you would have taken down that posting.  If I responded on LMR with an offer for $400/night, you would have taken down my posting but the OP's would have stayed.  If I post on Rentals Offered with no price, you'd take that down too, right?

The problem you have as a moderator is that you would be required to place a value on Rentals Wanted.  But there's no objective way to do that so you let everything go on the Wanted side.  This posting is an example.

I stand by my statement that the two sides of LMR are asymmetric -- you have to be less than $100/night on the Offered side but you can request the moon on the Wanted side.


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 21, 2017)

You are comparing apples to oranges:

-TUG has no control over the private communication between people off-line.*
-The rules apply to what you post in the LMR FORUMS - in the forums, you can only offer/request $100 per night.

*However, if you post an Ad on TUG offering a rental for $100 per night, and people report you because privately you are requiring $400 per night, we will take your Ad down, because it amounts to false advertising.


----------



## chapjim (Oct 21, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> You are comparing apples to oranges:
> 
> -TUG has no control over the private communication between people off-line.*
> -The rules apply to what you post in the LMR FORUMS - in the forums, you can only offer/request $100 per night.
> ...



Denise,

I have no issue with the rules for posting on the Offered side.  I'm not advocating a bait and switch for Offered LMRs.  All I'm saying is the same rules don't apply to postings on the Wanted side.

You, as a moderator, do not keep people from requesting accommodations that cannot reasonably be expected to be available for $100/night.  So, the way it plays out is someone asks for a 4BR Pres at Bonnet Creek -- no dollar value attached.  If I have a 4BR Pres unit, I will contact the OP and offer the accommodations for say, $300/night.  The negotiations moved offline.  Saying you can only request lodging on the Wanted side for $100/night is a rule that you can't control and can't enforce.  You just said so yourself.

The two sides of LMR operate differently.  One side has a nightly limit; the other side purports to have a limit but it can't be enforced.  The effect is no limit at all on the Wanted side.


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 21, 2017)

I think the sub-text here is that you are unhappy with the $100 limit...


----------



## chapjim (Oct 21, 2017)

Wrong.  I have no problem with the $100 limit so please don't put words in my mouth.  It's just that the $100 limit doesn't mean anything on the Timeshare Rentals Wanted forum.

What I said initially was that the Wanted forum and the Offered forum did not work the same way.  You took issue with that but haven't offered anything that refutes what I said, just a bare statement that the limit applies to both forums.


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 21, 2017)

Back to your original statement: 

*It's asymmetric. Gotta be less than $100/night in the Offered section but you can ask for anything in the Wanted sec*

You cannot "ask for anything" in the Rentals Wanted section - what happens off-line is a different story.  It's very clear, and this will be my last response.


----------



## chapjim (Oct 21, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Back to your original statement:
> 
> *It's asymmetric. Gotta be less than $100/night in the Offered section but you can ask for anything in the Wanted sec*
> 
> You cannot "ask for anything" in the Rentals Wanted section - what happens off-line is a different story.  It's very clear, and this will be my last response.



And this will be mine.  

When is the last time you had to take down a listing on the LMR Wanted forum because someone wanted to pay more than $100 per night?


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 21, 2017)

I have taken down a number of posts in which the person OFFERED to pay more than $100 - it happens fairly often when the poster realizes that they probably can't get it for $100 per night.


----------



## TUGBrian (Oct 21, 2017)

no need to continually argue with a moderator about how you feel the rules are applied, vs how they are actually applied.


----------



## Sandy VDH (Oct 21, 2017)

Rule as DensieM just stated is that LMR Wanted and Offered are both $100, but what happens offline is another matter.  Well it is and it isn't. It is just the response gets some of us into trouble.

For some large (like the 4 BR Presidential you are asking about) or hard to get locations ( Hawaii or NYC) I have offered items offline, but I can't offer them at $100 a night.  But if someone is really looking for that hard to get place, they will agree to a reasonable price.  But I and others have gotten blasted on this LMR forum for asking offline for more than $100 a night.  The OP making the request then posts on here that I am not adhering to the $100 night rule.  Why, because they know that someone might offer it for the $100 a night, if there are people desperate to get rid of something.  I have had people pretty much assure me, they get what they want for a $100 a night ALWAYS, so why would they pay me at least my cost of the unit they are requesting.  I should just sell them a unit that cost me $250 a night for $100.  Why because I have what they want and the board limit is $100 that is all I can ask.  So fine, I withdrawal the offer I made offline and then get badgered hoping I will give in.

The unintended consequence for some of us who might have access to the requested inventory, is that we don't even bother to look because the COST is over $100 a night.  So why would I voluntarily offer something for less than cost.  Some people are reasonable about the asking price, but others just want the high demand unit size and location and for $100 MAX, end of story.  And because they often get it, so it just empowers them to ask for it over and over again.  So I just give up and pretty much never offer inventory even if I have it.

I am generally not in the habit of subsidizing someone else's holiday, it has happened where I did have something that was a "use it or lose it" and someone got a great deal, but in 25 years of timesharing it has only happened twice.   The value of points over fixed weeks is you have some room to recover and live to see the points live for another day.  Fixed weeks, NO wiggle room.  

There has been plenty of debate of the $100 limit, but TUG has spoken and the intention was to help people who where desperate to get ride of something (think fixed week), yet get some value for it on the LMR OFFERED. However on the LMR Wanted in this situation these people have nothing to lose and only something to gain.  Different set of situations.  The limit of $100 has stayed the same for many many years, and does not reflect size (studio or 4 BR) or location, or the fact that many are no longer fixed weeks that are a use it or lose it situation.   So I see LMR WANTED as a different set of circumstances.

I feel that there is a valid need for a last minute rental OFFERED option, especially for fixed week owners. I completely agree with that.    But the LMR WANTED option with the same restriction only benefits the requester by artificially suppressing the price that can be asked. 

TUG's argument is to use the rental forum if we want to rent. But many of us are NOT in an proactive rental business per say but are in the opportunistic reactive rental situation if we can provide inventory and we have access points.  That is a different scenario.  One that I think has a need, that is LMR, but at a reasonable cost coverage NOT at a set ceiling regardless of the request.

It is a lost opportunity for some who would have paid a little more to get what they really needed and wanted.  But for many of us it is not worth the hassle of the beat down for those who only want the impossible at a rock bottom price.  We never know which side the OP is on when they make the request. Even if the implication is that offline you can negotiate, in really you have already level set expectations in over 75% of those requesting.  I just choose not to put effort into offering if there is a good chance I will just be berated for it.  We have created a set of expectations among a subset people who routinely use the LMR Wanted board.  But that is why I at least don't offer inventory we have even offline, even when we often have what is requested.

Not trying to change the rule or your minds.  I am just offering my observations and reasons for NOT offering up inventory.


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 21, 2017)

I never respond to LMR Forum Want Ads, because I don't have anything in that price range and I don't want to deal with it.  But if I did want to respond, I'd send them a private message that said something like this:

I see that you would like to rent a 5 bedroom at the Taj Mahal for New Year's week.  Unfortunately, that rental goes for more than $100 per night.  I have a reservation available for a higher rate, but I don't want to offend you, so please let me know if you'd like more info.  If not, I understand and there is no need to respond.​
If they respond in a rude manner - that's on them, and it's certainly not a rules violation, since you responded privately.  

***Low-ball offers are just part of renting - I routinely get people asking for $500 - $1,000 - $1,500 discounts.  It's the nature of the beast.  You can't take it personally.


----------



## chapjim (Oct 21, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> I never respond to LMR Forum Want Ads, because I don't have anything in that price range and I don't want to deal with it.  But if I did want to respond, I'd send them a private message that said something like this:
> 
> I see that you would like to rent a 5 bedroom at the Taj Mahal for New Year's week.  Unfortunately, that rental goes for more than $100 per night.  I have a reservation available for a higher rate, but I don't want to offend you, so please let me know if you'd like more info.  If not, I understand and there is no need to respond.​
> If they respond in a rude manner - that's on them, and it's certainly not a rules violation, since you responded privately.
> ...



Well, that's exactly what I do.  Different words, same theme.  But, only if I already have a match.

Oh!  That 5BR at the Taj Mahal for New Year's week -- is that all-inclusive?


----------



## Sandy VDH (Oct 21, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> If they respond in a rude manner - that's on them, and it's certainly not a rules violation, since you responded privately.



I offer but state that the cost is higher than the $100 LMR limit, are they still interested.

I have gone this route before but with mixed results.
a) they never respond at all, if I take the time to look for inventory, you think they might take 2 seconds just to respond, NO. 
b) they realize that what they are asking if more than $100 a night and welcome the offer and/or negotiate
c) they complain the rules are $100 night but it ends there
d) they complain then post on TUG and complain, then I am told I can't ask for more than $100
e) they complain, and keep reaching out over and over, because they just know I will cave and give in

If I had some a) responses, well fine, but then just say NO not interested, no response at all is rude in itself.  If I got more b) and c) responses from my offline offer, then I might still be responding to requests.  But I have had a dis-proportionally high number of d) and e), and more a) responses than you would think.

So my choice it is a waste of MY time and effort.


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 21, 2017)

Then maybe it's just not worth your time and trouble to respond - I know it isn't for me.


----------



## Sandy VDH (Oct 21, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Then maybe it's just not worth your time and trouble to respond - I know it isn't for me.



It is definitely NOT worth the effort for me, I have stopped responding.  But I do roll my eyes if I happen to notice a request that is out of that range.  Like 4 BRs or 2 BR hawaii with oceanviews, etc etc etc.


----------



## jhoug (Oct 23, 2017)

Agree with all of Sandy VDH posts.  Asking for a 3 or 4 bedroom week or prime location like New York or Hawaii for $700, is ridiculous request to ask of an owner in most cases, unless like she says it is a "use it or lose it" situation.  
Some of my fixed week 2 BR timeshares maintenance fees have gone up to $1400 over the last 19 yrs, when they used to be $700--900


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 23, 2017)

> Asking for a 3 or 4 bedroom week or prime location like New York or Hawaii for $700, is ridiculous request to ask of an owner in most cases, *unless like she says it is a "use it or lose it" situation.*



Once again - The Last Minute Rental forum is intended for "use it or lose it" situations.  Not for for-profit rentals.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Oct 23, 2017)

Yes, this happened to me.  There was a very rude person who requested a unit through last minute rentals, and when I offered something for more than $100 per night via PM, he/she was incredibly nasty and complained in the forum that people were making offers over $100 per night.  I used PM and didn't respond to the nasty accusation in the forum.  

I decided then and there not to ever respond to these ridiculous requests.  I don't appreciate being treated like I am scum because I have something that I own which doesn't fall under the $100 per night max allowed.  I don't have to help anyone.  It's not my obligation to get you something for $100 per night or less.  Learn to use exchange or buy something yourself.


----------



## tschwa2 (Oct 23, 2017)

Polite code could be
Please PM/start a conversation if you have ANYTHING available
or
Please no private offers for anything over $100/night  or I am only interested in offers at or below $X per night (something at or below $100).


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 23, 2017)

tschw2 - that is a very good idea, but it goes against human nature:  

-It would require people to read and follow _additional_ instructions.  

-Some people are just rude no matter what.


----------



## Sandy VDH (Oct 23, 2017)

Rudeness happens all over.  I had a rental listed (NOT a LMR by the way)  I had a guy contract me for 5 months badgering me.  Telling me he was doing me a favor taking it off my hands.  5 MONTHS.  I blocked him from my phone and email, but they kept coming and the demands for a 2 BR oceanfront in Hawaii continued.   

Like I said I don't fish in those waters, but there are people who cast and get bites for it just encourages them to to continue. 

So both LMR and rentals on time are a beat down at times if you are offering up something.


----------



## TUGBrian (Oct 23, 2017)

I look at it a different way...much like craigslist (which has to lead the league in time wasting emails)...id rather get lowball offers than no offers at all.

at least that party is interested in the product (or has a product you are interested in)...the haggling left is merely about price.

And I can always just delete an email if it seems like a complete waste of time, most people delete emails every single day and dont give it a second thought.


----------



## TUGBrian (Oct 23, 2017)

and to clarify the forum rules...while we do not actively monitor private messages (which by the nature of how the forum works, we cant see anyway)...the only time we would get involved as moderators would be if someone was harassing another member via PM, or actively spamming/soliciting people thru private messages to bypass the "no advertising" rule on the forums.


----------



## PamMo (Oct 30, 2017)

Jim makes an interesting point that this _could_ be used as a simple "want to rent" forum, ignoring the $700 limit. I just can't imagine very many people would respond to requests for prime time/location timeshares at ridiculously low prices. (I never even look at this forum unless a thread subject catches my eye - like this one did!) I guess if I wanted a particular week at a particular resort and couldn't find it, I could post a want ad here and hope someone has it, not really expecting it to be $700.


----------



## TUGBrian (Oct 30, 2017)

be easier to post a rent wish ad in the marketplace as it doesnt have said limits.


----------



## chapjim (Oct 30, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Once again - The Last Minute Rental forum is intended for "use it or lose it" situations.  Not for for-profit rentals.



We get it.  But, when you say that, you can only be talking about the Offered forum.  It has nothing to do with the Wanted forum.


----------



## TUGBrian (Oct 30, 2017)

chapjim said:


> We get it.  But, when you say that, you can only be talking about the Offered forum.  It has nothing to do with the Wanted forum.



that is not correct, the lmr wanted forum has the same rules that apply.


----------



## chapjim (Oct 30, 2017)

TUGBrian said:


> that is not correct, the lmr wanted forum has the same rules that apply.



Brian,

How can "use it or lose it" apply to someone posting on the Wanted forum?  I am not arguing about forum rules except to point out that the rule on the Wanted forum isn't really a rule at all unless the person who posts on the Wanted forum is stupid and volunteers to pay more than $100/night.

Example:  Situation 1:  Someone posts on the Wanted forum for a four bedroom presidential unit at Wyndam Bonnet Creek in prime season.  That posting violates no rule even though everyone (including the one who posted it) knows it will not rent for $100/night or less.  If an owner has such a unit, he will contact the OP off-line and make an offer.  You don't know it is happening, can't enforce anything because no rule has been broken.  The Wanted posting stays up.

Situation 2:  Someone posts on the Wanted forum for the same unit, same time, but says he's willing to pay $101/night.  That violates the rule and presumably the posting will be deleted.

Whether you like it or not, the Wanted forum is as PamMo suggests, a Want To Rent forum.  Unless someone stupidly offers to pay more than $100/night, anything goes.


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 30, 2017)

"Anything" does not go.  The rules for both forums are identical.   IN THE FORUM you cannot ask or offer more than $100.  

Since you already stated in this thread that you have no problem with the $100 limit - *WHAT is your objective with continuing this argument?*


----------



## TUGBrian (Oct 30, 2017)

the intent of both sub forums have been explained ad nauseam...the rules have also been explained...and how the rules are enforced has been explained.

at this point im not even sure what the argument is?


----------



## chapjim (Oct 30, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> "Anything" does not go.  The rules for both forums are identical.   IN THE FORUM you cannot ask or offer more than $100.
> 
> Since you already stated in this thread that you have no problem with the $100 limit - *WHAT is your objective with continuing this argument?*



Denise,

I don't have a problem with the $100/night limit.  I've said that and I mean it so there's no point in bringing it up.  My point would be the same no matter what the forum limit is.

I didn't say anything goes.  I said anything goes on the Wanted forum *unless* *someone says they want to pay more than $100/night*.  Why would someone offer to pay more than the forum limit?

*In practice*, the $100/night limit and the "use it or lose it" forum objective only apply to the Offered forum.

I'm done with this topic.  PamMo gets it.


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 30, 2017)

Glad to hear it - since your questions have been asked and answered multiple times, may I suggest that you contact Brian Rogers privately, if you have any more concerns.


----------

