# Cancellation disappeared in 3 seconds



## happyhopian (Mar 1, 2015)

We are going to Bonnet for my daughter's birthday and I was holding two rooms but the grandparents backed out so I was in the process of cancelling their reservation but mistakenly canceled 3 night of my stay by mistake (different size room). I realized what I did just as I hit the confirm key (you know that feeling of OOOPS). I pressed my favorite to the bonnet search screen and changed the date pressed enter (which couldn't have been more than 3-10 seconds) and it was gone. I kept looking for 30 minutes consistently and nothing April 2-5th gone. 

My fault ALL my fault and I'm not here whining about my mistakes, but I'm here because it gets back to that point that there is something fishy going on with mass booking and professionals that can master the system and while I understand they can have people hired to search all the time there is no one rapid searching for exactly 3 days on April 2nd on some random Sunday at 8:20pm eastern. 

This is not the first time this has happened to me and it has been discussed on here a lot but I am now convinced that someone has figured out how to monitor avails and cancellations. On another not I am hoping that we can work something out else I just cost my daughter her birthday trip.


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## bogey21 (Mar 1, 2015)

Could be Wyndham taking the days for their own use.  I am not a Wyndham owner but have been reading the Cancel/Rebook posts with interest.  My thought is if Wyndham wanted to stop this (I acknowledge they may not) that a simple thing to do would be to delay making cancelled reservations available for a period of time.  This could be randomized.  Some in one hour, some in two hours, some the next day, etc.  Just a thought.

George


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## happyhopian (Mar 2, 2015)

I agree, while that would damage the cancel/rebook folks it would certainly open up the field for everyone else. The issue has become the mega renters (and I'm not talking about Ron/Rob). I just don't understand how these folks are in Wyndham's best interest they are not buying developer points.


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## am1 (Mar 2, 2015)

That has been a very hard week to get.   If a bot grabbed it you would have seen it in availability, tried to grab it but by then it would be gone.  If you did not see it that means either it never came back or it took too long to get to the search page.  In this case I do not think a bot grabbed it.

Having the inventory come back randomly would not stop the bots.  That is the problem.  Not people searching. Everyone has priorities ands pays the same fees to use the system.


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## happyhopian (Mar 2, 2015)

Thanks AM but I disagree. I talked with Wyndham when this happened back in November. I spoke with three people. VP of operations, a manager in owner care and the guest service manager at Bonnet Creek. All three confirmed that they DO NOT recapture inventory when cancelled. The guest services informed me that they always keep 1-2 of each room type free for problems so they never load everything in inventory and I was told that only loaded inventory gets booked and it can never book more than what is available and if they did do that by accident or forgetting to remove a room when it when down for rehab, they would have no way to tell they system to recapture a room if and when it was cancelled. I specifically asked if they could set room inventory to something like -1 and it a cancel came up the computer would take it and all three said no. I am just convinced that there is something more than bots, scripts or humans randomly searching and I am not a proponent for a hold on cancel or randomization of replacement. I am not saying that the randomization or delay reposing would help, I am not sure it would but having all the LARGE professional competing with small mom/pop and actual owners is going to be a conflict and in my opinion it is a detriment to regular owners who cannot afford to pay someone to hack code or hire button pushers to keep searching. As I said in my previous post, I just don't see how mega renters help Wyndham at the detriment to their owners.


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## lprstn (Mar 2, 2015)

The computer system with Wyndham takes hours to update newly added back inventory. Sometimes if you check the morning after it will show up again.


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## jebloomquist (Mar 2, 2015)

Yesterday, Sunday, the same thing happened to me. I accidentally cancelled a Bonnet Creek 4 night reservation for March 17th, and it never reappeared even for a few seconds.

I started looking seconds after the cancellation, and for quite some time there after, but nothing appeared. 

Is it due to overbooking, a bot, or Wyndham grabbing cancellation? I don't know. All I know is that is seems to be happening quite frequently now, where it was an infrequent occurrence before.

Jim


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## csxjohn (Mar 2, 2015)

> The guest services informed me that they always keep 1-2 of each room type free for problems



Did you call and tell them of your mistake and ask for one of the rooms they hold back for problems?


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## am1 (Mar 2, 2015)

happyhopian said:


> Thanks AM but I disagree. I talked with Wyndham when this happened back in November. I spoke with three people. VP of operations, a manager in owner care and the guest service manager at Bonnet Creek. All three confirmed that they DO NOT recapture inventory when cancelled. The guest services informed me that they always keep 1-2 of each room type free for problems so they never load everything in inventory and I was told that only loaded inventory gets booked and it can never book more than what is available and if they did do that by accident or forgetting to remove a room when it when down for rehab, they would have no way to tell they system to recapture a room if and when it was cancelled. I specifically asked if they could set room inventory to something like -1 and it a cancel came up the computer would take it and all three said no. I am just convinced that there is something more than bots, scripts or humans randomly searching and I am not a proponent for a hold on cancel or randomization of replacement. I am not saying that the randomization or delay reposing would help, I am not sure it would but having all the LARGE professional competing with small mom/pop and actual owners is going to be a conflict and in my opinion it is a detriment to regular owners who cannot afford to pay someone to hack code or hire button pushers to keep searching. As I said in my previous post, I just don't see how mega renters help Wyndham at the detriment to their owners.



All last fall nothing was coming back for Bonnet Creek as they decided to renovate Tower 5 but never withheld the inventory at the 10 month window.  This year they have done that for Tower 6.  In this case the inventory never came back at all.  With a bot it comes back for a split second.  

Wyndham needs to secure their website so bots cannot function.  The first step would be from them to acknowledge that it happens.  Given the proper tools I could solve it very easily.


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## bnoble (Mar 2, 2015)

> Given the proper tools I could solve it very easily.


I'll take that bet.


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## am1 (Mar 2, 2015)

bnoble said:


> I'll take that bet.



Get Wyndham to sign off on it and I will know which accounts are involved as soon as a resort updates its confirmations.


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## ronparise (Mar 2, 2015)

If its a bot,  its doing nothing but duplicating exactly what we do when we search and make a reservation.  It has to see the availability before it hits the "select"  button.  When  we see the availability after canceling, the bot sees it too, but in the split second it takes us to react and hit "select" the bot has done its work and is searching again

At least thats what I think

Bonnet Creek is not where I choose to make my reservations and do my rentals, but if it was, Easter weekend would be a good weekend to rent, I think. and if I had a bot at my disposal I might be looking for that weekend. 

There are a number of rental companies and big points management companies and even some individuals that work in Orlando. It wouldnt surprise me to learn some of them pay folks to search in the 60 day window. or that some of them have bots at their disposal.

You didnt stand a chance. It wasnt just some random sunday at 8:30. The website was open for reservations and it was within the 60 days from Easter weekend


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## bnoble (Mar 2, 2015)

ronparise said:


> There are a number of rental companies and big points management companies and even some individuals that work in Orlando. It wouldnt surprise me to learn some of them pay folks to search in the 60 day window. or that some of them have bots at their disposal.



Heck, I would do it via mechanical turk.
https://www.mturk.com/mturk/welcome


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## happyhopian (Mar 2, 2015)

I need to correct something I said. I called owner care this morning and got all the way to someone with inventory control on a call with a OC manager (yes I was hot). They explained that in fact they DO recapture inventory when they have rooms go out, for example when they are fully booked and they know they have issues with rooms reported as out of commission. This is NOT what I have been told on several instances in the past and so I can only say I take this with a grain of salt but the person they had on the phone with us was VERY knowledgeable and was able to look at things online quoting about how much inventory they had and assignments that I didn't understand. They gave me some suggestions on what to do and I'll take their advice. They also said that there are people who have learned to work the system and they confirmed that while they have preventive measures there are people who could figure out how to script a bot to work past their measures though he assured me they are always trying to crack down on those things when they happen.

Ron - Yes! I agree with everything you said (Including that I had no chance and inferring it was my fault you are absolutely right!) but anyone who operates an automated way of doing this should be thrown out and blocked from future Wyndham access IMHO. Hiring a bunch of people to press buttons - well that is their expense and it will be factored in their rental cost/competitiveness but Wyndham has an ethical obligation to ensure that they do not own a system which affords any "technical advantage" to anyone else regardless of their investment or monetary wealth.  An automated hack that subverts system security rendering someone an advantage - should not be acceptable and Wyndham should make examples of anyone who does.


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## happyhopian (Mar 2, 2015)

bnoble said:


> Heck, I would do it via mechanical turk.
> https://www.mturk.com/mturk/welcome



Interesting resource for other reasons. Thank you


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## am1 (Mar 2, 2015)

happyhopian said:


> Ron - Yes! I agree with everything you said (Including that I had no chance and inferring it was my fault you are absolutely right!) but anyone who operates an automated way of doing this should be thrown out and blocked from future Wyndham access IMHO. Hiring a bunch of people to press buttons - well that is their expense and it will be factored in their rental cost/competitiveness but Wyndham has an ethical obligation to ensure that they do not own a system which affords any "technical advantage" to anyone else regardless of their investment or monetary wealth.  An automated hack that subverts system security rendering someone an advantage - should not be acceptable and Wyndham should make examples of anyone who does.



They have had since before Christmas to try something new but have not done anything.    What is needed is everyone calling and letting them know their concern.  What would really hurt them is if people stopped buying but those people have no idea about most of the things going on let alone other owners using bots.


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## ronparise (Mar 2, 2015)

happyhopian said:


> I need to correct something I said. I called owner care this morning and got all the way to someone with inventory control on a call with a OC manager (yes I was hot). They explained that in fact they DO recapture inventory when they have rooms go out, for example when they are fully booked and they know they have issues with rooms reported as out of commission. This is NOT what I have been told on several instances in the past and so I can only say I take this with a grain of salt but the person they had on the phone with us was VERY knowledgeable and was able to look at things online quoting about how much inventory they had and assignments that I didn't understand. They gave me some suggestions on what to do and I'll take their advice. They also said that there are people who have learned to work the system and they confirmed that while they have preventive measures there are people who could figure out how to script a bot to work past their measures though he assured me they are always trying to crack down on those things when they happen.
> 
> Ron - Yes! I agree with everything you said (Including that I had no chance and inferring it was my fault you are absolutely right!) but anyone who operates an automated way of doing this should be thrown out and blocked from future Wyndham access IMHO. Hiring a bunch of people to press buttons - well that is their expense and it will be factored in their rental cost/competitiveness but Wyndham has an ethical obligation to ensure that they do not own a system which affords any "technical advantage" to anyone else regardless of their investment or monetary wealth.  An automated hack that subverts system security rendering someone an advantage - should not be acceptable and Wyndham should make examples of anyone who does.



I didn't mean to imply that anything was your fault. And I agree you are quite right. If someone is gaming the system; that ain't right.  My point is that there are folks working the system.(and perhaps gaming it) so when someone like me or you makes a mistake there is little chance of recovery

Sorry I wasn't clear


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## Bigrob (Mar 2, 2015)

I have heard another story about issues at Bonnet Creek... which would add to the reasons people have so much trouble getting their cancelled reservations back. And I do know there are many many people trying to get reservations for that time frame right now... 

I have no way of verifying if the information I heard is true, but what I heard does make sense and would explain a lot of what some of us have seen at Bonnet Creek. Supposedly this particular issue has been addressed, but the fact remains that it is such a popular resort for rentals that it draws a lot of attention from the big boys who make a very large percentage of the rentals from Bonnet Creek.

I am sorry this happened to you... several of us have been stung by this in the past, but it seems even worse in your case since it was an accident and was for personal use. I hope you get lucky and get it back.


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## Passepartout (Mar 2, 2015)

I' don't know that anyone is 'gaming the system' or any skullduggery is going on. The explanation for a cancellation's immediately being snapped up can be simply that someone, somewhere, had an Ongoing Search for the size/week/location that the OP cancelled (in effect deposited) and the reservation computer 'saw it' and fulfilled the OGS. It's just that simple.

It pays to make sure before you hit the 'send' button.

Jim


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## tschwa2 (Mar 2, 2015)

Wyndham doesn't have an OGS or waitlist in their system.


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## spackler (Mar 2, 2015)

tschwa2 said:


> Wyndham doesn't have an OGS or waitlist in their system.



Well, they should.  This repeated hunt-and-click game they make owners play gets old.


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## Passepartout (Mar 2, 2015)

tschwa2 said:


> Wyndham doesn't have an OGS or waitlist in their system.



Well, SOMEBODY either got VERY lucky or SOMEBODY has a way to see suddenly available units to book. In other words, I tend to disagree with your premise.


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 2, 2015)

Passepartout said:


> Well, SOMEBODY either got VERY lucky or SOMEBODY has a way to see suddenly available units to book. In other words, I tend to disagree with your premise.



And those would be the "bots" mentioned several times in this thread.


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## Rent_Share (Mar 2, 2015)

spackler said:


> Well, they should.  This repeated hunt-and-click game they make owners play gets old.




The mega renters don't want that


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## ronparise (Mar 2, 2015)

Rent_Share said:


> The mega renters don't want that



which of course is why its likely to happen


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## slabeaume (Mar 3, 2015)

I've also been told by Wyndham and the resort I cancelled a reservation with that they do indeed take back cancellations if they've overbooked or have a problem with another room.  Had that happen on an Elysian reservation (but was able to get it back with Worldmark and eventually most of the days came back in the Wyndham system---like a couple weeks later).


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## jebloomquist (Mar 3, 2015)

I am surprised that no one has mentioned having received the following PM.

_kentmccain 
Guest

BBS Reg. Date: Aug 27, 11
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 0 

Loosing Inventory from Cancel / Rebook
Dear Jebloomquist,

I am an attorney suing on behalf of several owners who were told to buy so they could cancel and rebook and get this great benefit.
From what I see on TUG , it appears Wyndham is stopping this benefit , although they haven't published any such change or even acknowledge it?
I you can send me your contact info , I'll contact you, or can you please call me at cell - xxx-xxx-xxxx. You're welcome to call me anytime, I'm usually up until about 10pm Central.

Thanks, Kent McCain_

Has anyone ever heard of this guy?

Jim


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## MaryBella7 (Mar 3, 2015)

jebloomquist said:


> I am surprised that no one has mentioned having received the following PM.
> 
> _kentmccain
> Guest
> ...



I haven't, but based only on his grammar/spelling, I would not be terribly confident in him.


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## am1 (Mar 3, 2015)

lhumes7 said:


> I haven't, but based only his grammar/spelling, I would not be terribly confident in him.



Nor his lack of knowledge of how it works.


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## Ron2 (Mar 3, 2015)

jebloomquist said:


> I am surprised that no one has mentioned having received the following PM.
> 
> _kentmccain
> Guest
> ...



This attorney contacted me back in early January after he saw a comment I made about cancel/rebook. He obviously was fishing for information and clients in his proposed law suit against Wyndham. This was my PM back to him:
“Sorry I can’t help you with that. I threw it away quite some time ago, after I tried the cancel/rebook process and lost my reservation. It was just hand written notes explaining how to do the process (a rather simple process if you have enough points and time to spend on the computer). I’m sure most of the people responding to the thread you saw on TUG know and use the process, some with more success than others. I also believe Wyndham didn't design the cancel/rebook process in their reservation system but rather it’s a loophole someone discovered and now most large point owners and points management companies that rent out Wyndham timeshares use it to increase profits. Likely existing contracts and program documents limit what Wyndham can do to close this and other loopholes. Personally I am quite satisfied with Wyndham Resorts. I just reserve early and usually get what I want and don't try to game the system.”
He responded with a PM and questioned my remark about “gaming the system”.  Since he is still contacting other TUG members, he must still be looking for disgruntled Wyndham owners.


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## Bigrob (Mar 3, 2015)

jebloomquist said:


> I am surprised that no one has mentioned having received the following PM.
> 
> _kentmccain
> Guest
> ...



Yes, I have heard of him. I too received a PM from him based on a post on cancel/rebook. He shared with me the status of a couple of lawsuits against Wyndham. I believe Ron P. has also talked to him. I talked to him to see if he had any information I didn't based on discovery actions, etc. The discussion was interesting but I don't know that I learned anything new from our discussion.


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## cyseitz (Mar 4, 2015)

jebloomquist said:


> Yesterday, Sunday, the same thing happened to me. I accidentally cancelled a Bonnet Creek 4 night reservation for March 17th, and it never reappeared even for a few seconds.
> 
> I started looking seconds after the cancellation, and for quite some time there after, but nothing appeared.
> 
> ...



What do you mean by "a bot" is there someone with a program that books stuff that gets canceled.  Or peruses the webpage for cancellations?  If so, shouldn't this be illegal or at least against some kind of policy.  I cheats us who sit on the computer trying to get that reservation they need.


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## Don40 (Mar 4, 2015)

It definately seems like someone or something has been on an active prowl for cancelled reservation.  My guess it is mostly wyndham grabbing inventory for their massive promotions scheme, such as getaways, holiday weekends, some inventory shortages.  
The economy is back, people are taking vacations again, so wyndham is back marketing full steam, look at them completing new construction, looking to add new resorts.  The good times are in front of us, all the wyndham, worldmark and shell members are searching for rooms, discounts etc.  more demand for each room, internally and corporately.  
The new reality is cancel reebook, will become an adventure for those of us who try. 
Some of the newer members do not remember you cancelled one day and waited until the next morning, calling like crazy to see if your room came back, you would be extremely lucky to get an upgrade. Then some big companies paid wyndham employees to "get their needed rooms" some got fired.  The old members would remember that to login was a challenge, they had a limited number of slots to login long wait times.
What we have is better now than then, yes we all want it to be still better, but the cancel rebook works most of the time I am using my experience of 90% of the time.  When we gamble some will win and some will lose, I smile when I move from a 1 bd dlx to a 3 br pres unit, just happened to me recently, the Presidential person is now upset about their vacation being ruined they are stuck in a 1 bed room unit so sorry if it was a tugger.  It is easier to gamble on a 1 bed room everything is on the upside then.


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 4, 2015)

Yes, Don ... I remember those 8AM days... looking for NEW stuff someone had cancelled the night before. Usually, I was at some resort where people got 15 minutes on the resort computer or paid $10 per day for "bad" internet in the room. I met a lot of people who were in the computer room hours at a time ... mostly guys back then as laptops were expensive (no tablets or smart phones) and heavy.

Learned a lot ... had a lot of interesting conversations ... and it was before Santa Barbara was opened ... that chain link fence and empty building.


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## Ron2 (Mar 4, 2015)

cyseitz said:


> What do you mean by "a bot" is there someone with a program that books stuff that gets canceled.  Or peruses the webpage for cancellations?  If so, shouldn't this be illegal or at least against some kind of policy.  I cheats us who sit on the computer trying to get that reservation they need.



The use of bots or other automated computer systems to search the Wyndham reservation system is prohibited by the” Wyndham Vacation Resorts Terms of Use”: https://www.myclubwyndham.com/ffr/terms.do  , however, it is very likely that bots are being used by the large point management companies to get select reservations for their clients. Wyndham claims that their Security Verification helps ensure that people, not automated programs, are accessing the online reservation system.  This might be true if it wasn't so easy to get around the Security Verification by just logging off and then log back on. The Security Verification code needs to be placed at the beginning of the search in addition to where it is now to eliminate the log off/log on trick to avoid verification. I dislike entering Security Verification Codes as much as the next guy but it would be worth it if it stopped the bots or at least slowed them down.


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## ronparise (Mar 4, 2015)

jebloomquist said:


> I am surprised that no one has mentioned having received the following PM.
> 
> _kentmccain
> Guest
> ...





Here you go

https://www.dropbox.com/s/03g6y6l3g...n Ownership Second Amended Complaint.pdf?dl=0


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## ronparise (Mar 4, 2015)

cyseitz said:


> What do you mean by "a bot" is there someone with a program that books stuff that gets canceled.  Or peruses the webpage for cancellations?  If so, shouldn't this be illegal or at least against some kind of policy.  I cheats us who sit on the computer trying to get that reservation they need.



and of course those of us that sit on the computer to pick up cancellations cheat the guy that is trying to cancel and rebook.  and the guy that cancels and rebooks...he is cheating too.


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## ronparise (Mar 4, 2015)

ronparise said:


> and of course those of us that sit on the computer to pick up cancellations cheat the guy that is trying to cancel and rebook.  and the guy that cancels and rebooks...he is cheating too.



and I dont know if someone has developed a bot to  search and book for them but after this thread, Im willing to bet  someone is working on one


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## SMHarman (Mar 4, 2015)

Of course someone has. 
A poster here developed one for his own personal use on SVN to initially flag up available weeks in search and now book them.


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## jjmanthei05 (Mar 4, 2015)

happyhopian said:


> As I said in my previous post, I just don't see how mega renters help Wyndham at the detriment to their owners.



The answer to this is simple. Wyndham only makes money by sales and fees. Mega renters pay 10s if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of guest fees a year where the regular owner pays between nothing and a couple hundred dollars. Mega renters are also much more likely to keep their maintenance fees up to date so they don't get locked out of their accounts and lose their reservations. I can see Wyndham making it more expensive for mega renters to squeeze more money out of them but I don't see a reason for them to try and shut them down. 

Anyone what has a clue what the term mega renter is and that they exist would never buy from wyndham anyway (unless they were one). Boards of directors and shareholders are much higher on the Wyndham food chain than timeshare owners. 

Jason


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## antjmar (Mar 5, 2015)

jjmanthei05 said:


> The answer to this is simple. Wyndham only makes money by sales and fees. Mega renters pay 10s if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of guest fees a year where the regular owner pays between nothing and a couple hundred dollars.



Megarenters only pay approx 25 to 50% in points for the same reservation as a non VIP. Many of their point were purchased resale.  This hurts the extraholidays rental and also sales!

*As many have said here why buy a timeshare when you can rent for less???*

IMO based on Rons link above they were (or are) trying to fix the cancel and rebook loophole and that resale points get VIP discount (with a VIP account) loophole since those  two things hurt sales and the extraholidays rental division.  

*The wyndham owners directly clearly states that upgrades and VIP discounts are for NEW reservations... VIP benefits are for purchases directly thru Wyndham.*

Sales staff have tried to lure me in to VIP status by  promoting these loopholes but my concern is that it will change soon...  and its whats in writing that counts...
I dont blame people for using the loophole but dont be shocked if it disappears...

Megarenters rent for less than half than extraholidays so the $99 guest fee is a very small amount of the profit compared to what wyndham could make if rented themselves.

IMO if the loopholes are closed they will kill the megarententers


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## torontobuyer (Mar 5, 2015)

jjmanthei05 said:


> *I can see Wyndham making it more expensive for mega renters to squeeze more money out of them but I don't see a reason for them to try and shut them down.



Absolutely. Much like EBay initially wanted to shut down snip bidding because individual bidders hated losing this way. Then Ebay realized those snip bidders worked to their advantage, so was never touched.


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## comicbookman (Mar 5, 2015)

The one unquestionable benefit of the megarenters is that they pay their MF's.  This benefits HOA's and owners.  If you suddenly make it unprofitable for them to operate, you are likely to see a large uptick in delinquent MF's.  This would not hurt Wyndham directly, but would cause problems.  I would presume that most mega renters do not spend a lot to purchase their properties, so I could envision Wyndham instituting a Mega deed back program if they do indeed sink the mega renters.  Allowing those with large portfolio's to deed their properties back to wyndham directly in order to minimize the disruption and cost of a large number of defaults.


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## am1 (Mar 5, 2015)

antjmar said:


> IMO if the loopholes are closed they will kill the megarententers



I have to pay the bills somehow.  The $99 guest fee was what me see the light.  I use to rely on other owners being able to transfer points but then last was stopped.

  I will adapt.


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## Ron2 (Mar 5, 2015)

comicbookman said:


> The one unquestionable benefit of the megarenters is that they pay their MF's.  This benefits HOA's and owners.  If you suddenly make it unprofitable for them to operate, you are likely to see a large uptick in delinquent MF's.  This would not hurt Wyndham directly, but would cause problems.  I would presume that most mega renters do not spend a lot to purchase their properties, so I could envision Wyndham instituting a Mega deed back program if they do indeed sink the mega renters.  Allowing those with large portfolio's to deed their properties back to wyndham directly in order to minimize the disruption and cost of a large number of defaults.



I think Wyndham has already answered that concern. They call it Limited Edition and Ovation. With these programs in place, owners that no longer want or have use for their timeshares can turn them back to Wyndham rather than dump them on the resale market or to the Viking ship scams. 
Also,  Antjmr had a good point.  Mega-renters are major competition for Wyndham’s Extra Holidays. So with programs in place to recover timeshares held or managed by the mega-renters, they may feel it’s time to close the loopholes that enables their operations. Whether or not this will ultimately benefit us average owners remains to be seen.


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 5, 2015)

There are several issues many here are not considering.

Points are limited OR should I say, *units available to be reserved are limited*....

The natural order of Wyndham-world is elderly owners paying MFs and not using their points ... the deed back program (Ovations?) will reduce that "lower than normal" percentage of points being used. 

The reduction of USE YEARs ... most owners got "reassigned" to the Jan-Dec Use Year .... so many MORE people will HAVE to use up their points by end of the calendar year. When scattered over the 4 quarters ... un-reserved reservations look at lot better for a quick getaway for owners ... than crowded phone lines all looking for stuff in the Thanksgiving thru NYE dates... a big booking timeframe already.

Families who have excess points (via using the discount windows due to their direct purchases) become MORE unhappy. This could result in lawsuits - claiming a Ponzi (type) Scheme by Wyndham.

Wyndham taking reservations (90%) within the 60 day out window for rental opens up the "idea" it might be questionable. And the number of reservations being "offered" for rental to Extra Holidays decreases (economy, buy backs, deed backs) - is it a GOOD option for Wyndham to have in future years? A business competing against owners getting last minute reservations.

More remodeling, more often (5 to 7 year schedule), more upscale - value added by keeping the product upscale verses OLD & BEAT.

And my favorite, "It is the economy" ... ability of people to afford travel is increasing or the population of people with the time & money to travel is increasing. More demand on the resale market ... for the better/desirable locations - for sure.

Wyndham-world has done more in the past 2 years than they did in the last 5+ years. The change may not make most of us knowledgeable users happy .. closing gaps in computer systems, expanding what is "overlapping reservations" (come on, a 1 day "overlap" is a killer?).

We will adapt - either changing our ways, dumping some of our ownerships, CHARGING MORE to reflect our increased costs, etc.


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## jaygould (Mar 5, 2015)

ronparise said:


> Here you go
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/03g6y6l3g...n Ownership Second Amended Complaint.pdf?dl=0



Thanks, Ron. I just finished reading the entire text that came thru on this Link. It was a real eye-opener for me!!


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## CO skier (Mar 5, 2015)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/03g6y6l3g...n Ownership Second Amended Complaint.pdf?dl=0

There is some interesting reading at about page 30 that provides insight into Wyndham's opinion of Megarenters in general and the unfairness of cancel-rebook in particular.

"*Megarenters*

Owners who are operating a commercial vacation rental business

A Megarenter is an Owner who amasses millions of points in their account for the purpose of booking large amounts of inventory so that they can rent out the units for a profit.  They are conducting a business by using our business!


*Why Megarenters Are A Problem*

* Megarenters tie up inventory during peak times

* Megarenters' cancelled reservations often result in unused inventory

* Our regular, non-VIP Owners are adversely affected by Megarenters

* WVO’s Anti-Megarenter policies have an adverse affect on non-Megarenter Owners.


3. We have identified four opportunities aimed at getting owners to resorts they want more often and more efficiently.  Each opportunity has a number of initiatives necessary to capture the value.

B. Get owners to engage within club rules to access the vacations they want
* Limit the use of loopholes by megarenters (e.g., cancel-rebook) that take inventory out of the system unfairly and reduce discretion in applying rules (e.g., overrides) where appropriate.

*Proactively manage inventory resulting from cancellations and no-shows*

* Create waitlists to fill canceled rooms
* Tighten rules on cancellations, in line with industry norms for condo and home rentals, to address serial cancellers
* Overbook owner stays based on history"


There are a number of other, similar lawsuits filed by this attorney:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182435

He has found the gold mine of billable hours he was looking for, and is looking to add to it.

Here is a summary judgment for one of the cases that is further down the line:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-alnd-7_10-cv-02717/pdf/USCOURTS-alnd-7_10-cv-02717-1.pdf


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 5, 2015)

I liked the comments regarding Extra Holidays - charging a 40% commission to the Wyndham owners who turn inventory over to a Corporate Wyndham entity but commenting that the "Megarenters" (actually, just other owners as 160 "Wyndham owners" truly are is a small group) have negativity interfered with the Extra Holiday rental activity ... DUH? Perhaps the 40% commission charged by Extra Holidays and the internet has done MORE than the activity of 160 individual entities (I would say persons, but I am sure some of the "megarenters" are LLC or family trusts).

Interesting reading ... should be included in the disclosure documents to retail buyer of WVO products ... 

Where is the sling shot?


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## ace2000 (Mar 5, 2015)

ronparise said:


> Here you go
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/03g6y6l3g...n Ownership Second Amended Complaint.pdf?dl=0



Wow!  Thanks for posting this interesting read.  So, what level of points is defined as "mega" renter?  I may have glossed over it, but don't recall.


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## scootr5 (Mar 5, 2015)

ace2000 said:


> Wow!  Thanks for posting this interesting read.  So, what level of points is defined as "mega" renter?  I may have glossed over it, but don't recall.



It was loosely defined as having amassed "millions of points".


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## ecwinch (Mar 5, 2015)

Wyndham seemed to use the number of transactions as the definition of "mega-renter" vs number of points. On page 23, they defined them as owners who operate a commercial rental business selling vacations to the general public and have several million points and over 100 transactions.

In the 2006, they categorized 18 accts as mega-renters, and by 2009 that had grown to 162 accts.  The filing indicated that the one of plaintiffs had over 23 million points.

Of all the cases listed about, the majority of the claims have been dismissed. So far only claims related to fraud have survived. Most importantly that Wyndham was actively working to curb rental activity of the mega-renters while continuing to sell/market to that same group.


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## am1 (Mar 5, 2015)

ecwinch said:


> Wyndham seemed to use the number of transactions as the definition of "mega-renter" vs number of points. On page 23, they defined them as owners who operate a commercial rental business selling vacations to the general public and have several million points and over 100 transactions.



Did they mean in a day or week?

A lot of it is of their own making because of how the guest confirmation fees work.


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## Bigrob (Mar 5, 2015)

am1 said:


> Did they mean in a day or week?
> 
> A lot of it is of their own making because of how the guest confirmation fees work.



LOL... no, annually. It is an extremely small subset of owners who would have that many transactions in a week, much less a day. Even the true mega-renters (points managers) handling 50M points won't have that many _in a single account_ because they are rotating between accounts for reservations, blocking schemes for upgrades, etc.


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## A.Win (Mar 5, 2015)

I think Wyndham dislikes BAD mega renters. But there are probably some GOOD mega renters too.

Bad ones take all the best weeks, such as summer beach weeks, Christmas, etc. On top of that, they work the system and get discounts on these weeks. 

Good mega-renters get their discounts and rent during the offseason. This helps Wyndham keep a high occupancy rate. This is how Wyndham wants you to use the discount.

Bad mega-renters rent to people that are already familiar with Wyndham resorts. These people won't buy and already know Wyndham well. 

Good mega-renters introduce new people to Wyndham. Some of these people will attend the presentations and become members.


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## happyhopian (Mar 6, 2015)

jjmanthei05 said:


> The answer to this is simple. Wyndham only makes money by sales and fees. Mega renters pay 10s if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of guest fees a year where the regular owner pays between nothing and a couple hundred dollars.
> Jason



That's not entirely true Jason. I had a long conversation with a renter who is managing 42 Million points. He has 70 house keeping credits (15 per million). During our conversation he said that his average booking runs 100k points per rental. Under that he is not using all of his credits each year, though I did not ask him.

I understand your point, but these folks are NOT buying developer points. They are buying enough to get platinum and then everything over 1million is resale on the cheap.


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## scootr5 (Mar 6, 2015)

happyhopian said:


> That's not entirely true Jason. I had a long conversation with a renter who is managing 42 Million points. He has 70 house keeping credits (15 per million). During our conversation he said that his average booking runs 100k points per rental. Under that he is not using all of his credits each year, though I did not ask him.
> 
> I understand your point, but these folks are NOT buying developer points. They are buying enough to get platinum and then everything over 1million is resale on the cheap.



I assume you mean guest certificates and not housekeeping credits  At 15 per million, he should have 630 available.


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## am1 (Mar 7, 2015)

scootr5 said:


> I assume you mean guest certificates and not housekeeping credits  At 15 per million, he should have 630 available.



Only if they were all bought retail.


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## jebloomquist (Mar 7, 2015)

scootr5 said:


> I assume you mean guest certificates and not housekeeping credits  At 15 per million, he should have 630 available.



As has been stated in other threads, and stated in the CLUB Wyndham Plus Directory under Platinum VIP:
Complimentary Guest Confirmations - 15 per 1,000,000 eligible points. Eligible points are points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates, Bonus Points and PIC enrollments.

Any of the points acquired through resale are not considered to be eligible points when it comes to the allocation of guest certificates.

If on the other hand you actually are referring to housekeeping credits, a VIP Platinum has an unlimited amount when making reservations.



happyhopian said:


> That's not entirely true Jason. I had a long conversation with a renter who is managing 42 Million points. He has 70 housekeeping credits (15 per million). During our conversation he said that his average booking runs 100k points per rental. Under that he is not using all of his credits each year, though I did not ask him.
> 
> I understand your point, but these folks are NOT buying developer points. They are buying enough to get platinum and then everything over 1million is resale on the cheap.



If you divide 42 million by 100k per reservation, the result is 420 reservations. I am going to assert that the renter actually had 70 guest certificates, and if so would actually have to pay for up to 350. And, at $99 per certificate, it comes to $34,650 that would be paid to Wyndham.

Jim


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## antjmar (Mar 7, 2015)

IMO opinion they allow the cancel and rebook loopholes to continue cause they want to  use this as a sales pitch.

Wyndham can monitor and track every single transaction you make including which account gets your cancellation. If they want to close the cancel and rebook (and upgrade loophole they can). 

*Does anyway really think they dont know how?*

If you decide to use your other account they will know that. If you are working with someone else they will know that also...

*If Wyndham tells the IT department make it stop it will! *They are worth million they can hire the best IT people what we are talking about is very simple...
eg. random delay to when a cancellation reappers, block account with same biling adress from getting the discount if rebooked, block accounts with a "history" of working together, create an ongoing search.

If they want to close the loop hole with the resale points getting ViP perks with a VIP  account all they have to do is not allow combining any resale deeds to a VIP account. (two separate account numbers)

Do we really think Wyndham cant figure this out?

PS thanks for the link Ron P


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## VivianLynne (Mar 7, 2015)

antjmar said:


> .....
> 
> Do we really think Wyndham cant figure this out?
> 
> PS thanks for the link Ron P



Very interesting info in that legal filing! Thanks, RonP., for the link.

IMHO, it just illustrates the corporate culture and morals of a major company and where senior executives spend time and money in first offering programs to create to increase sales, push the idea of renting vacation time to afford the MFs and loan payments, and then spend even more effort, to eliminate the competition they created by unjustly (costs recovery) by raising fees and changing program rules.

And the lawyers haven't even gotten to resort management contracts, "independent" HOA boards and fees on top of fees. 

And Wyndham still can't run a rental division --- even with a 40% commission and their logo branded web site plus inventory they have NO COST available to them (owners turning over booked weeks, 60 day free inventory before check in, "unsold" inventory and non-paying MFs on the fixed week units (while taking covering their costs plus 40% rental commission).

WOW ...a  interesting read .... all Wyndham owners NEED to read this before Wyndham settles and removes stuff (ie Kendra's suit).


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## Ron2 (Mar 7, 2015)

antjmar said:


> IMO opinion they allow the cancel and rebook loopholes to continue cause they want to  use this as a sales pitch.
> 
> Wyndham can monitor and track every single transaction you make including which account gets your cancellation. If they want to close the cancel and rebook (and upgrade loophole they can).
> 
> *Does anyway really think they dont know how?*



You’re absolutely right. Wyndham knows how to close the loopholes and could do it at any time they decide. I think their primary concerns are all the points that will be dumped (many to Viking Ships) and the law suits as previously noted in this thread. With the Ovation and Limited Edition, they may have come up with a solution to the points that could otherwise be abandoned and since they are implementing the programs their next step may be to close the loopholes and just deal with the law suits.


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## happyhopian (Mar 7, 2015)

jebloomquist said:


> As has been stated in other threads, and stated in the CLUB Wyndham Plus Directory under Platinum VIP:
> Complimentary Guest Confirmations - 15 per 1,000,000 eligible points. Eligible points are points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates, Bonus Points and PIC enrollments.
> 
> If you divide 42 million by 100k per reservation, the result is 420 reservations. I am going to assert that the renter actually had 70 guest certificates, and if so would actually have to pay for up to 350. And, at $99 per certificate, it comes to $34,650 that would be paid to Wyndham.
> ...


 
You are correct and I was mistaken. 

On the other had after doing some more research I was saddened to see that in nearly every suit so far the Wyndham is winning in summary judgement in the question of their ability to change rules as they see fit - which means that they can do ANYTHING they want to with the program and we have no choice but to accept it....something that has been said over and over here. Very troubling as this will affirm their confidence and lead them to keep taking moves that benefit them over us.


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## am1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Ron2 said:


> You’re absolutely right. Wyndham knows how to close the loopholes and could do it at any time they decide. I think their primary concerns are all the points that will be dumped (many to Viking Ships) and the law suits as previously noted in this thread. With the Ovation and Limited Edition, they may have come up with a solution to the points that could otherwise be abandoned and since they are implementing the programs their next step may be to close the loopholes and just deal with the law suits.



Except I would strip all points from an account before giving it back to Wyndham if the rule changes were that bad that I needed to get out.


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## Ron2 (Mar 7, 2015)

happyhopian said:


> You are correct and I was mistaken.
> 
> On the other had after doing some more research I was saddened to see that in nearly every suit so far the Wyndham is winning in summary judgement in the question of their ability to change rules as they see fit - which means that they can do ANYTHING they want to with the program and we have no choice but to accept it....something that has been said over and over here. Very troubling as this will affirm their confidence and lead them to keep taking moves that benefit them over us.



Wyndham is winning because the rules they are changing relate to VIP benefits for which it has been clearly stated since back in the Fairfield days – “VIP Program Benefits are subject to change without notice”.  VIP benefits are primarily sales promotion tools and like all sales promotions, they come and they go. It happens in the automobile industry and likewise in the timeshare industry. After reading through the previously posted law suit, I decided to look through a couple of my early Fairfield and Wyndham contracts (direct developer purchases) to see if there was any way that I could have been lead to believe that VIP benefits were guaranteed – they clearly are not.  I seriously doubt that the Klebbas bought 50 million points directly from Wyndham so their complaint about loss of benefits is not valid because resale purchases are not contractually eligible for VIP benefits.


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## traveldaddy (Mar 7, 2015)

antjmar said:


> *If Wyndham tells the IT department make it stop it will! *They are worth million they can hire the best IT people what we are talking about is very simple...
> eg. random delay to when a cancellation reappers, block account with same biling adress from getting the discount if rebooked, block accounts with a "history" of working together, create an ongoing search.



Couldn't they just make any reservation cancelled within the discount period appear for a short period of time (24 or 48 hours) at full point value, prior to having the discount applied? Anyone would be able to grab it at full value and the no one would be able to "game" the system that way - VIP owners would still have the discount benefit, but only for weeks that were not booked at full value. So W would not be "taking anything away."

Just a thought.........


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## Ron2 (Mar 7, 2015)

traveldaddy said:


> Couldn't they just make any reservation cancelled within the discount period appear for a short period of time (24 or 48 hours) at full point value, prior to having the discount applied? Anyone would be able to grab it at full value and the no one would be able to "game" the system that way - VIP owners would still have the discount benefit, but only for weeks that were not booked at full value. So W would not be "taking anything away."
> 
> Just a thought.........



Interesting concept, but I believe Wyndham plans to implement a wait list instead.  Hopefully reservations from the wait list will be at full point value to avoid having rental companies take advantage of the wait list.


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## am1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I would constantly tag the reservation for 24 to 48 hours.  Then get it as the discounted price.  Or just upgrade my reservation to it.  Would the smaller upgraded reservation go right back into the system or would act like a cancelled reservation and be at full point value for 24 - 48 hours? 

How is sales going to spin this decrease in VIP benefits?  



traveldaddy said:


> Couldn't they just make any reservation cancelled within the discount period appear for a short period of time (24 or 48 hours) at full point value, prior to having the discount applied? Anyone would be able to grab it at full value and the no one would be able to "game" the system that way - VIP owners would still have the discount benefit, but only for weeks that were not booked at full value. So W would not be "taking anything away."
> 
> Just a thought.........


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## ronparise (Mar 7, 2015)

jjmanthei05 said:


> The answer to this is simple. Wyndham only makes money by sales and fees. Mega renters pay 10s if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of guest fees a year where the regular owner pays between nothing and a couple hundred dollars. Mega renters are also much more likely to keep their maintenance fees up to date so they don't get locked out of their accounts and lose their reservations. I can see Wyndham making it more expensive for mega renters to squeeze more money out of them but I don't see a reason for them to try and shut them down.
> 
> Anyone what has a clue what the term mega renter is and that they exist would never buy from wyndham anyway (unless they were one). Boards of directors and shareholders are much higher on the Wyndham food chain than timeshare owners.
> 
> Jason



Jason, Like you I pay a ton in guest fees every year, but I dont think it has anything to do with Wyndhams bottom line.   I think the guest fees go to the administration of the Fairshare trust and  keep the program fee lower than it would be otherwise

It is my belief, that  guest fees were raised to this level for no other reason than to discourage the mega renters.  but it didnt work.  I further believe that wyndham will drive the mega renters out of business but instead of trying to make life difficult with higher fees, they will buy us out  with their new buy back programs. And new potential mega owners  will be discouraged by the new higher prices on the secondary market.  (have you seen ebay prices lately??)


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## am1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Ron2 said:


> Interesting concept, but I believe Wyndham plans to implement a wait list instead.  Hopefully reservations from the wait list will be at full point value to avoid having rental companies take advantage of the wait list.



Another decrease in VIP benefits which would affect sales and people currently paying their fees on time.


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## CO skier (Mar 7, 2015)

Ron2 said:


> Interesting concept, but I believe Wyndham plans to implement a wait list instead.  Hopefully reservations from the wait list will be at full point value to avoid having rental companies take advantage of the wait list.





am1 said:


> Another decrease in VIP benefits which would affect sales and people currently paying their fees on time.



The waitlist would not affect any legitimate VIP benefits.  All VIP owners will still have the same reservation discounts they have now to reserve any (probably leftover, not prime time) reservation available within their discount window.

If a cancelled reservation is captured by the waitlist, it never returns to online inventory to be reserved at a discount.

If a premium reservation is cancelled within the discount window, and no one is on the waitlist, it returns to online inventory where anyone can reserve it, including VIPs using their discount.


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## antjmar (Mar 7, 2015)

am1 said:


> I would constantly tag the reservation for 24 to 48 hours.  Then get it as the discounted price.  Or just upgrade my reservation to it.  Would the smaller upgraded reservation go right back into the system or would act like a cancelled reservation and be at full point value for 24 - 48 hours?
> 
> How is sales going to spin this decrease in VIP benefits?



Each reservation has a "electronic fingerprint" which they can track. 
Their policy (in writing) is VIP upgrades and discounts are for NEW reservations...
so IMO they can deny the discount or upgrade.

Like you said the sales dept wouldnt like this but they are a clever bunch and they will adapt also...


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## am1 (Mar 7, 2015)

antjmar said:


> Each reservation has a "electronic fingerprint" which they can track.
> Their policy (in writing) is VIP upgrades and discounts are for NEW reservations...
> so IMO they can deny the discount or upgrade.
> 
> Like you said the sales dept wouldnt like this but they are a clever bunch and they will adapt also...



You have more faith in Wyndham IT then me.  That link opened my eyes a little to what they were trying to do but if they can do half of what you think they can do I would be impressed.  Under the current system.  In a new one anything is possible.  

I do think VIP buyers should get the most benefits possible and not need sales to spin what they are buying anymore.

Currently a VIP purchase can be worthwhile for a buyer but with waitlist or what others are suggesting would not be.


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## antjmar (Mar 7, 2015)

am1 said:


> You have more faith in Wyndham IT then me..



My opinion is that Wyndham is aware whats going on and allows it, for what reason I dont know.  
From what I read Wyndham made $MILLIONS in profit last year. I think they can afford to hire an IT person to do exactly what they want..


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## jjmanthei05 (Mar 7, 2015)

ronparise said:


> Jason, Like you I pay a ton in guest fees every year, but I dont think it has anything to do with Wyndhams bottom line.   I think the guest fees go to the administration of the Fairshare trust and  keep the program fee lower than it would be otherwise
> 
> It is my belief, that  guest fees were raised to this level for no other reason than to discourage the mega renters.  but it didnt work.  I further believe that wyndham will drive the mega renters out of business but instead of trying to make life difficult with higher fees, they will buy us out  with their new buy back programs. And new potential mega owners  will be discouraged by the new higher prices on the secondary market.  (have you seen ebay prices lately??)



i will drive some out just like a drop in oil prices has driven some lower quality oil companies out of business. The stronger players (hopefully you and I fall in that boat) will adapt and keep going on. They only way for Wyndham to stop mega renters is to stop allowing guest certificates. Anything short of that, I don't think will be effective. 

Jason


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## jjmanthei05 (Mar 7, 2015)

antjmar said:


> My opinion is that Wyndham is aware whats going on and allows it, for what reason I dont know.
> From what I read Wyndham made $MILLIONS in profit last year. I think they can afford to hire an IT person to do exactly what they want..



You make is sound like there is a magic IT wand that you waive and the system changes to what you want. They tried to do this with voyager and it was such an abject failure they scrapped the entire thing (from what I have heard). This was something a company that makes Billions of dollars was actually paying for and trying to implement. I work with as a database administrator for a living and a lot of what is mentioned here as "easy" really isn't.

Jason


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## antjmar (Mar 8, 2015)

jjmanthei05 said:


> You make is sound like there is a magic IT wand that you waive and the system changes to what you want. They tried to do this with voyager and it was such an abject failure they scrapped the entire thing (from what I have heard). This was something a company that makes Billions of dollars was actually paying for and trying to implement. I work with as a database administrator for a living and a lot of what is mentioned here as "easy" really isn't.
> 
> Jason



Jason,
I'm not an IT person and I respect your expertise.
All wyndham has to do is create two different accounts for owners that are and VIP and have resale points. Seems pretty simple to me.
RCI already has an ongoing search function so that shouldn't  be too difficult.
A programmed random delay or hold doesn't seem impossible to me  but again I'm not an IT person.


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## Ron2 (Mar 8, 2015)

jjmanthei05 said:


> You make is sound like there is a magic IT wand that you waive and the system changes to what you want. They tried to do this with voyager and it was such an abject failure they scrapped the entire thing (from what I have heard). This was something a company that makes Billions of dollars was actually paying for and trying to implement. I work with as a database administrator for a living and a lot of what is mentioned here as "easy" really isn't.
> 
> Jason



I’m fairly sure that Voyager was never implemented and the “abject failure” you mention was just speculation and possibly wishful thinking by some folks here on TUG.


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## ronparise (Mar 8, 2015)

Ron2 said:


> I’m fairly sure that Voyager was never implemented and the “abject failure” you mention was just speculation and possibly wishful thinking by some folks here on TUG.



At the last annual meeting of the Fairshare Trust Geoff Richards talked about Voyager.  He said that Wyndham Vacation Ownership did have to go to New Jersey to "resell" the benefits of the program to Wyndham Worldwide. He also said that instead of rolling out the whole thing all at once, it would be done one piece at a time


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## Ron2 (Mar 8, 2015)

ronparise said:


> At the last annual meeting of the Fairshare Trust Geoff Richards talked about Voyager.  He said that Wyndham Vacation Ownership did have to go to New Jersey to "resell" the benefits of the program to Wyndham Worldwide. He also said that instead of rolling out the whole thing all at once, it would be done one piece at a time



Thanks Ron!  As usual, you have the facts. The one piece at a time makes sense and currently that piece must be Ovation-Limited Edition.  The full scale implementation of Voyager without some sort of buyback would have been disastrous for everyone, not just the big guys.


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## vacationhopeful (Mar 8, 2015)

ronparise said:


> At the last annual meeting of the Fairshare Trust Geoff Richards talked about Voyager.  He said that Wyndham Vacation Ownership did have to go to New Jersey to "resell" the benefits of the program to Wyndham Worldwide. He also said that instead of rolling out the whole thing all at once, it would be done one piece at a time



That sounds like "corporate speak" as "we spent all the budgeted money for development" and "we spent the extra slush fund computer money" ... "so we need more money" and "we are working on the benefit numbers to corporate so they will fund us" by "rolling the new system out in pieces".


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## sandkastle4966 (Mar 8, 2015)

Ron2 said:


> I seriously doubt that the Kendras bought 50 million points directly from Wyndham so their complaint about loss of benefits is not valid because resale purchases are not contractually eligible for VIP benefits.



The suit is NOT Kendra Bowers suit.  She was referenced in the document as a mega-renter that was "interviewed" by Deanna Gamble.

(I also have read that material as well. Bowers did buy some from Wyndham, with lots of PIC points that she ran her rental business with.)


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## sandkastle4966 (Mar 8, 2015)

As an FYI - I was actually at the "side" wynhdam meeting with the "special interest group" meeting when Deanna rolled out the new cancellation policy and the guest certificate charges.  she presented charts that basically showed that something like 20 members, used an incredible percentage of the guest certificates.  The choice of "free" basically made it s that the "self/family usage owners" would not be paying for certificates, or would be rarely doing so.  She also presented it as the guest fees would be basically paying for the resources to be doing the guest certificates.  (Yes, I realize now that it is mainly automated.)

As far as their IT goes......yes, indeed it CAN be done - with an adept IT group.  I spent 30 years in IT with extremely sharp people.  0ne of my managers left the area and went to work for Wyndham in Florida.   She lasted 2 years - she got extremely frustrated with their ineptitude, lack of structure, and inability to execute.  

At least the current website appears to work ....don't get me started on the "other company" - RCI..........


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