# Retirees Are Flocking to These 3 States - and Fleeing These 3 States in Droves



## MULTIZ321 (Apr 17, 2019)

Retirees Are Flocking to These 3 States - and Fleeing These 3 States in Droves
By Darla Mercado and John W. Schoen/ Personal Finance/ CNBC News/ cnbc.com


More than 4 out of 10 people moving to New Mexico cited retirement as a reason, according to data from United Van Lines.
Retirement was also a top reason why people relocated to Florida and Arizona — and why they are fleeing New Jersey.
"Step aside, Florida. New Mexico is the new top retirement destination.

Those were the findings from a survey by United Van Lines. The relocation company polled 26,998 of its customers who moved last year, through Nov. 30, 2018.

Among those who moved to New Mexico, 42% said they did so because of retirement, making the Land of Enchantment a top destination.

Florida came in second, with 38% of people moving there citing “retirement” as a reason. Arizona followed in third, according to United Van Lines.

Meanwhile, those golden years were also a primary reason why people fled New Jersey, with a third of households citing that as a driver behind their decision to leave the Garden State.

Maine and Connecticut round out the top three states people are moving away from citing retirement, the moving service found....."





Albuquerque International Balloon Festival
sjlayne | E+ | Getty Images


Richard


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## Luanne (Apr 17, 2019)

Well yeah, we retired to Santa Fe.


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## DebBrown (Apr 17, 2019)

I'm surprised Illinois didn't make the top 3 fleeing states.


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## Iggyearl (Apr 17, 2019)

I live in NY state.  Building a home in Williamsburg, Va.  Our daughter lives there. Our NY home costs $7200/year in taxes. The taxes in Va. will be $2400.  Same value for both homes. What have I been missing?     The world is more informed thanks to the internet.


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## Sugarcubesea (Apr 17, 2019)

DebBrown said:


> I'm surprised Illinois didn't make the top 3 fleeing states.



I felt for sure Michigan would make the list....of folks fleeing from


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## geist1223 (Apr 17, 2019)

We have been looking at Boulder City, Nevada. No income tax and low property taxes. Also a lot closer to Grand kids. One day travel vice two. Then my son goes and tells us they might be moving to Charlotte NC. No tax advantages for retirees in NC. But there is in SC. So we are researching homes from Greenville to Spartanburg. We would only be a couple hours from the Grandkids. We could get a house like ours with more property for less than half the money. So we will wait and see what happens to the kids. My son says if they move it will most likely be their last move until the Grandkids are out of High School. It would be their 4th move in 5 years of marriage.


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## Passepartout (Apr 17, 2019)

Lots of folks moving to Idaho too, but honestly, Boise has become too rich to afford. Fortunately, there are lots of other great places outside of there. 

Jim


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## WinniWoman (Apr 18, 2019)

My husband and I are in a flux as to where we will go. We actually would have stayed in our house if it weren't for how it is set way back in the woods and the isolation. NY does not tax SS or retirement income, so the main burden is the property and school taxes. But paying the $825 per month for that plus expenses is still better than most rents anywhere for something really nice. Utilities seem to be high no matter where you live from what I can tell. Then- some places have high HOA fees, so no gain there. One thing, it is safe here crime wise for the most part. But, we do hate the corrupt and oppressive politics and laws in NY.

Of course, as we get older, dealing with major house repairs will not be a good thing, though, physically and financially. But no matter where you go, you have that anyway, except maybe in a condo. I have heard in townhouses you still are responsible for the outside- like your roof and so forth. I have no experience with this. I know we want less maintenance. We prefer a 55+ community if we have to go with a house, though we prefer a condo with a garage. (We are even checking into CCRC's, though the financial planner has changed his mind and now feels we should buy a place instead. But I am concerned about our future with no family to help us really. And don't want to be a burden when that time comes.)

This weekend we have a realtor coming in to give advice as to what we could sell our home for, as we are working with a financial planner and he is trying to help us determine what we can afford when we move. (I know we will probably have to have it professionally appraised and we might even decide to sell it ourselves to save on realtor commissions).

We want to move to NH where our son lives and a state we really love, but the cost of living is somewhat high and home/condo prices are high- more than likely we would have to dip into savings for a large portion to add onto whatever we sell our home for to buy something nice there. But it probably still will not be enough and I really do not want to do that. Good luck finding something affordable with an updated kitchen and bathroom. Throw in that hubby has to have a garage and forgetaboutit. Crazy.

Also- the HOA fees can be high in community settings, but not always- and you are lucky they plow and do what they call landscaping- lol! No pool. No gym. A joke. The 55+ communities have no openings and when they do it is newer construction and the homes go for like $450,000 to $650,000 or more! I love the homes, but what kind of downsizing is that? All I know is we can't pay it.

Also love Vermont (my first choice) but they tax SS and retirement income and estates and everything. Really no 55+ communities. Sigh.....

So we also have looked at southern places (Tennessee, Virginia, North and South Carolina,) but not sure we would like south. We hate humidity and reptiles and big bugs and tornadoes and hurricanes and flooding. Not sure about the food and the vibe/culture. Concerned about crime.

Then we thought maybe Delaware for low cost of living. No mountains, though. And a lot of properties on leased land, so have to watch out for that.

Maybe PA- but for some reason I was never crazy about PA. Just a feeling.

And lastly- out West (Nevada, Idaho, Arizona, Colorado) though it is so far from everyone we know, including our son, though we rarely see anyone we know now anyway. We like the West, but hate extreme heat and not crazy about desert.

But the West and South and Delaware do have some affordable options for us.

I just wish we could buy something before our house sells/closes, because I don't think I can handle two moves. Especially being in our 60's-(my husband will be going on 67/68 by then). I envy people who can afford to do that. Renting somewhere (and everything that goes along with it- changing addresses and banks, putting things in storage and so forth) and than finding a place and then moving again. And then, what if we move to another state, and rent and then still don't find something we like or decide we don't like the area and then get stuck renting indefinitely or having to move again- maybe out of state again- to something else?

OMG- I am too OCD for that. I have always owned a home. One for 10 years and this one for 31 years. Never rented. I am not a person that moves. Hubby is not either.

I guess there is no Utopia.  But New York should be on that list - tons of people are escaping.


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## Sugarcubesea (Apr 18, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> My husband and I are in a flux as to where we will go. We actually would have stayed in our house if it weren't for how it is set way back in the woods and the isolation. NY does not tax SS or retirement income, so the main burden is the property and school taxes. But paying the $825 per month for that plus expenses is still better than most rents anywhere for something really nice. Utilities seem to be high no matter where you live from what I can tell. Then- some places have high HOA fees, so no gain there. One thing, it is safe here crime wise for the most part. But, we do hate the corrupt and oppressive politics and laws in NY.
> 
> Of course, as we get older, dealing with major house repairs will not be a good thing, though, physically and financially. But no matter where you go, you have that anyway, except maybe in a condo. I have heard in townhouses you still are responsible for the outside- like your roof and so forth. I have no experience with this. I know we want less maintenance. We prefer a 55+ community if we have to go with a house, though we prefer a condo with a garage. (We are even checking into CCRC's, though the financial planner has changed his mind and now feels we should buy a place instead. But I am concerned about our future with no family to help us really. And don't want to be a burden when that time comes.)
> 
> ...




I'm doing major house repairs now to get my place in shape to sell in 2020. My 3 kids really beat this house up, so I have to spruce it up to sell it...


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## WinniWoman (Apr 18, 2019)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I'm doing major house repairs now to get my place in shape to sell in 2020. My 3 kids really beat this house up, so I have to spruce it up to sell it...




Best of luck!

We spent the last 5-6 years (and $100,000) doing that. Hubby didn't want to at first. I told him we were living in it anyway and we knew we had to wait for hubby to retire before we could sell, so might as well enjoy the new kitchen and bathrooms and so forth.

I am not sure it will even matter in the area we are in. There are new houses going up and I am sure buyers will want those over ours. Hopefully I am wrong.

We put so much money into our home over 31 years it isn't even funny. And to think we will barely get anything over what we paid in 1987 is disheartening.

I have started paying scratch offs the past few months (and I never, EVER played the lottery in the past, except with a coworker pool). I have no other solutions.


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## Luvtoride (Apr 18, 2019)

So we also have looked at southern places (Tennessee said:
			
		

> It sounds like you have a lot of travel to do and decisions to make before choosing your next home.  We just came back from a few days in Nashville, TN and talking to people there, they love that there is no state income tax and very low property taxes (but the sales tax is 9.25%, ouch).  Most importantly to us was the friendliness and hospitality of everyone we met and encountered there (not just staff and workers in the industry).  Add to that the amazing art, culture and MUSIC scene in Nashville, you may want to visit on your tour of possible retirement places.
> Good luck!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Sugarcubesea (Apr 18, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Best of luck!
> 
> We spent the last 5-6 years (and $100,000) doing that. Hubby didn't want to at first. I told him we were living in it anyway and we knew we had to wait for hubby to retire before we could sell, so might as well enjoy the new kitchen and bathrooms and so forth.
> 
> ...



We did just under $20K worth of updates on my parents home before we sold it last year and it sold for more than the other homes in their sub that were listed at the same time of sale with no improvements or updates.  We recouped the $20K and got the home sold 1 day after listing it and we put it up for $40K more then the other homes in my parents neighborhood...

My cousin listed her parents home for sale the same day I listed my parents home for sale and she did no updates and she listed it for more then any house had sold in her parents neighborhood with updates. The updates I did on my parents home were as follows:  paint the whole house, new carpeting throughout, new light fixtures thought-out, and removed all of the old drapes from the 70's. My cousins parents house  stayed on the market for a year and she just sold it last week for $75K under the original list price...

For my home in order to get the market rate I will need to do the updates as everyone else in our sub has already done this and sold and made a nice profit...


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## Sugarcubesea (Apr 18, 2019)

mpumilia:  For me, I need to retire where my dollar will stretch further as the company that I spent the bulk of my working years at screwed us all out of our pension.. When the company went bankrupt, the pension went to the PBGC and they sent notification to all employees that we would only receive 10% of what was owed to us due to the fund being so underfunded.

The property tax's are very high in my state and my state also has the highest car insurance rates...housing on the water or even with a water view is insane.  (this is very important to me as I love the water and warm weather) The winters in my state are brutal and I do not want to deal with the harsh weather in retirement...

I'm not going to move where my kids go because they will move too..MY SIL has moved 3 times since she retired trying to follow her kids and its cost her a pretty penny...


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## VacationForever (Apr 18, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> NY does not tax SS or retirement income, so the main burden is the property and school taxes.
> 
> Also love Vermont (my first choice) but they tax SS and retirement income and estates and everything. Really no 55+ communities.



What is classified as retirement income here?  I cannot imagine withdrawals from IRA / 401K as not being taxed at the state level.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 18, 2019)

We have avoided most of the south because it just never appealed to us. We have been to Florida several times. We don't like cities, so Nashville would be out. I do know someone who moved to Tennessee many years ago and loved it. Was able to get a gorgeous home for so much less than she would have paid here.

Only been to Virginia once- Williamsburg and Virginia Beach. Wouldn't want to live there, though I have an ex coworker who moved there from here and loves it But she moved when her daughter went to college down there and she now has both children and grandchildren living nearby. I would nto have that. She lives in a small apartment in Roanoke (where she got a job). She is single. Not for us.

We also know of a few people who moved to North Carolina and then didn't like it and moved back. Another couple that used to live here actually just moved from North Carolina to Alabama after being in North Carolina for like 10 years.

I feel we do not have much time to start traveling around the country to find a state we like. My husband is still working and retires next year. We are not getting any younger and I want to move while we still have some energy and spirit and mental stamina left to do it. We have no one to help us. Just selling our home is going to be exhausting.

We have traveled, but the states we know well and like are in the Northeast. Even if we traveled places- just going once is not going to really tell us what it is like. We can only go by information we get from the internet and other people and the "vibes' we got when visiting some areas. Being in vacation is one thing. Living somewhere and feeling like it is "home"  is something else.  When I go to Vermont, it feels like I am home since we have been going for over 20 years. NH is close to that for us, but not like Vermont.

So anywhere else we consider never compares. 

It's like my heart says one thing and my brain says another...


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## WinniWoman (Apr 18, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> What is classified as retirement income here?  I cannot imagine withdrawals from IRA / 401K as not being taxed at the state level.



That is correct. NYS does not tax IRA withdrawals or pensions or SS. $20,000 exclusion on the IRA/pension withdrawals.

Only 13 states I believe tax those and NY is not one of them amazingly.


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## VacationForever (Apr 18, 2019)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I'm not going to move where my kids go because they will move too..MY SIL has moved 3 times since she retired trying to follow her kids and its cost her a pretty penny...



I totally agree with move to where you are happy.  Moving whenever and wherever the children move to is an issue with stability in retirement.  .


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## VacationForever (Apr 18, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> That is correct. NYS does not tax IRA withdrawals or pensions or SS. Only 13 states I believe tax those and NY is not one of them amazingly.


Found it!

*New York*
$20,000 of pension and annuity and IRA income if you’re 59 ½ or older.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashlea...th-retirement-income-tax-breaks/#28bffe0ca462

We live in a state without income tax and it is really helpful in our retirement.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 18, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> Found it!
> 
> *New York*
> $20,000 of pension and annuity and IRA income if you’re 59 ½ or older.
> ...




Yes. Certainly having NO income tax is better than New Yorks' retirement income tax exemption. I think even in New Hampshire which has no income tax- they still tax any dividends and interest over $5000.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 18, 2019)

I was sure Denver would be on the list.  

The housing market is a seller's market right now in Denver.  It's rare to find anything under $300K, so people who want to move to Denver need to take heed because real estate values have skyrocketed in the last 8 years.  

Houses get multiple bids on the day they hit the MLS.  

The bigger homes that are newer have not escalated in price as much as the ones in the lower range.  Our son bought a house in a new subdivision, still building, but it was used.  The people paid for a lot of upgrades, but the house sat on the market for several months, and our daughter-in-law (Realtor) offered under their asking by quite a bit, and they took it, desperate to get out of their payments.  But that is a $820K house, and the upgrades the woman chose were not to our son's liking, so all he does is complain about it. It's a great house.  I love it, but I have traditional taste, and it's definitely traditional, and the basement ceilings are 10 ft.  Toll Brothers knows how to build a house.  I can picture a nice big movie theater for about 25 people to sit comfortably. 

His old house sold for $420K (huge amount of equity in that $420K), and it had many offers before our son chose the one that said, "We will take this house as-is."  He did that because he knows that inspectors are ridiculous.  He did not want to go back and forth about this thing or that thing.  His house was only ten years old.  

Moral of the story is, if you want to move to Denver, look for the bigger houses and get your bargain.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 18, 2019)

Sugarcubesea said:


> mpumilia:  For me, I need to retire where my dollar will stretch further as the company that I spent the bulk of my working years at screwed us all out of our pension.. When the company went bankrupt, the pension went to the PBGC and they sent notification to all employees that we would only receive 10% of what was owed to us due to the fund being so underfunded.
> 
> The property tax's are very high in my state and my state also has the highest car insurance rates...housing on the water or even with a water view is insane.  (this is very important to me as I love the water and warm weather) The winters in my state are brutal and I do not want to deal with the harsh weather in retirement...
> 
> I'm not going to move where my kids go because they will move too..MY SIL has moved 3 times since she retired trying to follow her kids and its cost her a pretty penny...




I understand because that is what happened to my husband. Company chopped his pension.

I myself love the idea of living on a gorgeous, crystal clear mountain lake. Dream on Mary Ann.. LOL!

Our son has lived in NH since 2006 when he started college. Yeah he could move. You never know. But not likely. he hates change. Even if he did, we would not follow him at that point. 

But- who knows where we will end up or if we will even be able to move. I need to let go and let God.



This is why I struggle.


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## bbodb1 (Apr 18, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> ...It's like my heart says one thing and my brain says another...



The perfect encapsulation of the retirement quandary...


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## Luanne (Apr 18, 2019)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I'm not going to move where my kids go because they will move too..MY SIL has moved 3 times since she retired trying to follow her kids and its cost her a pretty penny...


When dh and I were getting ready to retire (and move) both of our dds told us to move where WE wanted to, not to where they were.  They had no idea how long they would be where they currently were and didn't want us tying ourselves to them.  Currently our younger dd is living with us. She got her Master's, got a great job, and it just made sense for her to stay here for the time being.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 18, 2019)

I could never leave my grandchildren. who are all within 85 miles of our home.  After 40 years in the same house, I would have a tough time leaving it.  We live in only a few rooms of our house and keep the other rooms closed up, mostly so our long-haired cat doesn't leave hair in more places.  I cannot keep up with the cat hair as it is.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 19, 2019)

This discussion brought me back to this tool. It helps a lot in the decision making process of where to retire based on taxes, especially if you are retiring. For ex: North Carolina is popular for people in NY to retire to, yet you can see it is not tax friendly at all. My coworker who moved to Alabama from there said that one reason they left is that her retired cop husband's pension was taxed there. They did not know it would be when they moved there. She said North Carolina is a beautiful state and commented I would like Wilmington, but I will not go to a state that taxes retirement income(thankfully they at least do not tax SS). NC has a flat tax on IRAs, pensions and 401k's.

She said Alabama so far is wonderful. Very inexpensive- their house cost just $117,000 and is walkable to the historic district of Gadsden, which they like. It doesn't tax most pensions, but there is a tax on other retirement income. But it is still overall tax friendly.

Property taxes on the list are way understated for New York. For a median house of $286,000, the property taxes would definitely be double the $4000 stated. I know. I own such a house and pay close to $10,000 and I do not know anyone in NY who pays only $4000 in property taxes- even way in upstate New York.  A lot of these lists never seem to include school taxes, or at least it is unclear if school taxes are included in the numbers. (In NY we get 2 separate bills for taxes- 1 for school in Sept and 1 for property in January)

This tool does not, however, take housing costs, weather, medical access, cultural and recreation activities and crime, into consideration. And people still have family and social  considerations, but still I think it puts a lot into perspective- at least for me.

https://www.kiplinger.com/tool/reti...by-state-guide-to-taxes-on-retirees/index.php


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## Conan (Apr 19, 2019)

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the state income tax question. State income taxes even for higher earners in high-tax states max out at about 5% of total income--not necessarily a deal-breaker.
The big ticket items are housing costs (what you're selling, net of commissions and moving costs, vs. the purchase price in the new place), and real estate tax.

I'm more concerned about culture, climate, and quality of medical services (if there even is such a thing as quality medical these days).

Culture:




https://blogs.sas.com/content/sastraining/2016/01/20/11279/

Climate:




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_the_United_States

Medical Services:




https://www.ahrq.gov/research/findings/nhqrdr/nhqdr16/overview.html


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## WinniWoman (Apr 19, 2019)

I think state taxes are a BIG issue. In NY, besides the oppressive property and school taxes and sales taxes and regulations, having your retirement income taxed after $20,000 is a big deal for people without pensions and who will not be taking SS until age 70, or a couple for which maybe one person passes and you have only one SS check.

I do agree about housing costs and property/school taxes needing to be affordable for sure, but hard to find.

There are plenty of areas in the states without income taxes that have a wonderful quality of living- cultural and outdoor recreation and so forth, weather, and also good medical care. (I agree good medical care is subjective).

For many people like myself it is really hard to find a place that has it all for what you are looking for.


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## bnoble (Apr 19, 2019)

Local culture, amenities, and maybe weather will trump taxes for me, but I'm also in a position where that is possible. In general, I find that areas with more significant tax obligations also have social and government policies that I am more than willing to support.


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## bogey21 (Apr 19, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> I am not sure it will even matter in the area we are in. There are new houses going up and I am sure buyers will want those over ours. Hopefully I am wrong.


 
I'm sure it depends on where you live but I just sold my Son's 40 year old house in Fort Worth for him.  It was not in the greatest shape in the world.  I thought he would get $175 thousand for it.  RE Agent insisted we list for $190,000 thousand.  It sold for the $190,000...

George


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## bogey21 (Apr 19, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> I know we will probably have to have it professionally appraised and we might even decide to sell it ourselves to save on realtor commissions.



Based on selling my Son's house I have two observations here.  First, a good RE Agent will probably give you as good a valuation as a professional appraiser.  And second in his case paying a RE Agent quickly got the deal done (time is money).  Surprisingly it was the Buyer's Agent who was the driving force in getting the deal done.  He wanted his half of the commission...

George


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## VacationForever (Apr 19, 2019)

Conan said:


> I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the state income tax question. State income taxes even for higher earners in high-tax states max out at about 5% of total income--not necessarily a deal-breaker.



California's income tax rate is 13.3% at the highest bracket.  If you don't make that much, you are still looking at about 8%.  I did a back of a napkin calculation and with our move to a state without income tax, we save about $14K a year.  Our quality of life is great where you can pretty much golf all year and have the best doctors that we ever had.


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## Conan (Apr 19, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> I think state taxes are a BIG issue. In NY, ... having your retirement income taxed after $20,000 is a big deal for people without pensions and who will not be taking SS until age 70, or a couple for which maybe one person passes and you have only one SS check.



Apparently Social Security is entirely exempt in New York State, apart from the $20,000 exclusion.
https://www.tax.ny.gov/pit/file/information_for_seniors.htm

So if you have, say, $40,000 of social security, $40,000 of private pension/IRA, and $20,000 of interest and dividends, then
Federal AGI
40,000 * 85% + $40,000 + $20,000 = $94,000

New York AGI
$94,000 - 40,000 * 85% - $20,000 = $40,000

New York standard deduction
~ $16,000 (married or qualifying widow)

New York taxable income
~ $24,000

New York income tax
~ $1,000


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## WinniWoman (Apr 19, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> Based on selling my Son's house I have two observations here.  First, a good RE Agent will probably give you as good a valuation as a professional appraiser.  And second in his case paying a RE Agent quickly got the deal done (time is money).  Surprisingly it was the Buyer's Agent who was the driving force in getting the deal done.  He wanted his half of the commission...
> 
> George



Yes. Agree. I already told the real estate agent that is coming tomorrow that I distrust real estate agents. LOL! 

When we sold my parents house I interviewed 3 agents and chose a "team" of two guys that were awesome. But I did tell them I did not want a haggling situation. To just list the house at what it can actually sell for and be done with it. They already new of a buyers agent who's client was looking for something like it (was a relative of her) 1st day on the market- sold for cash. Had another 1 or 2 offers also. 

That said, we had to spend a ton of (my parent's)money after the inspection to get things up to code and current standards.

I will interview a couple of more agents before the year is up. We might list with one of them. we just don't want a 6 month contract and they all seem to want that. Also- hard to negotiate commissions with these people. 

Depending, we will try to sell ourselves I guess. I am reading a book right now on how to do that.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 19, 2019)

Conan said:


> Apparently Social Security is entirely exempt in New York State, apart from the $20,000 exclusion.
> https://www.tax.ny.gov/pit/file/information_for_seniors.htm
> 
> So if you have, say, $40,000 of social security, $40,000 of private pension, and $20,000 of interest and dividends, then
> ...




Yes. I know.

The $20,000 exclusion is for other retirement income from what I understand. SS is tax free.

We have no pensions, so income has to come out of savings and IRA's/401k eventually. Plus our Roth conversions we start next year. (Standard deduction for us is now $24,000 Federal).

I did say in a prior post NY is not that horrible in this regard, but even in your example $1000 adds up when you consider the property and school taxes also going up every single year. Thankfully our home has been paid off a very long time, so at least no mortgage.

Major maintenance for our house, though, is not something we want to continue with as we age and we do not want the total isolation. I won't even talk about what else is going on here in our local tri-counties as it would get political. 

Culturally our mindset is like the West or even the South according to your map, but we also have a lot of "Yankee" in us being born and bred in NY. We of course, are used to certain things that we have here that are not elsewhere. Especially in the South- I remember being in Florida and thinking I could not take how slow everyone was. Like the cashiers in the supermarkets, for example. LOL!

I really want a 55 + community type living or something like it.. I am determined.... LOL!


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## Conan (Apr 19, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> California's income tax rate is 13.3% at the highest bracket.  If you don't make that much, you are still looking at about 8%.  I did a back of a napkin calculation and with our move to a state without income tax, we save about $14K a year.  Our quality of life is great where you can pretty much golf all year and have the best doctors that we ever had.



If the calculator here is correct, https://www.irscalculators.com/tax-calculator, the California income tax on the same example I gave above ($40,000 exempt social security, $60,000 pension/IRA/other income) is less than $1,250 for a married couple.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 19, 2019)

I guess it is all a matter of what you think is a lot of money. I think taxes are extortion anyway so even $1 is too much for me.

That said- you can't avoid them altogether one way or another no matter where you live.

BTW- that is a really cool tool! Thanks!


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## Sugarcubesea (Apr 19, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> This discussion brought me back to this tool. It helps a lot in the decision making process of where to retire based on taxes, especially if you are retiring. For ex: North Carolina is popular for people in NY to retire to, yet you can see it is not tax friendly at all. My coworker who moved to Alabama from there said that one reason they left is that her retired cop husband's pension was taxed there. They did not know it would be when they moved there. She said North Carolina is a beautiful state and commented I would like Wilmington, but I will not go to a state that taxes retirement income(thankfully they at least do not tax SS). NC has a flat tax on IRAs, pensions and 401k's.
> 
> She said Alabama so far is wonderful. Very inexpensive- their house cost just $117,000 and is walkable to the historic district of Gadsden, which they like. It doesn't tax most pensions, but there is a tax on other retirement income. But it is still overall tax friendly.
> 
> ...



Thanks for providing this tool. I’m going to be using it.


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## Luanne (Apr 19, 2019)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I could never leave my grandchildren. who are all within 85 miles of our home.  After 40 years in the same house, I would have a tough time leaving it.  We live in only a few rooms of our house and keep the other rooms closed up, mostly so our long-haired cat doesn't leave hair in more places.  I cannot keep up with the cat hair as it is.


We don't have grandchildren.  Maybe if we did I'd feel differently.  But, question for you, if those families moved farther away would you move to be closer?


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## Passepartout (Apr 19, 2019)

Luanne said:


> We don't have grandchildren.  Maybe if we did I'd feel differently.  But, question for you, if those families moved farther away would you move to be closer?


Our kids and grands all left us. And airplanes fly every hour. We aren't moving to the urban areas where they chose to live/work. I can totally understand. They are into technology and earn tons of money, but I couldn't live in the urban area where they do.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 19, 2019)

Luanne said:


> We don't have grandchildren.  Maybe if we did I'd feel differently.  But, question for you, if those families moved farther away would you move to be closer?



Our son is not married and we have no grandchildren or other children for that matter. To answer your question- NO- we would not follow our son or his family if he had one.

That said, we do want to make our retirement move near to where he lives, but we are also exploring other options.

We actually really like the state he lives in and our timeshare is there also. Our other timeshare is in the state right next to that and we really love the New England area.

As to what Jim said, I would really hate to have to get on a plane to visit him because we really hate flying, not to mention the expense of it, (and for us that would involve lodging also and meals out as our son right now lives in a studio apartment AND- we can't assume if he was married his spouse would be crazy about us plopping down with them for an entire week or more even if he did have a big home), so I  guess he would have to be the one to fly to us if we lived far away- not that he could afford it right now. Then if he had a family it would get even more expensive for him. And we know what that means- no visits. Also, the families get more busy as the kids grow. I have seen this happen with my cousin here in NY and her family, whom live in California.

I do sometimes feel kind of bad when I see how people I know have a lot more contact with their kids and grand kids that live nearby. Especially during holidays and birthdays. Some of it I think is way too much- like all the babysitting- ugh- but it is the little things I envy. They go to the grand kids plays and ball games. They see their kids for all their birthdays, maybe a barbecue, etc. Would be nice if-let's say, our son would live close- maybe he would call my husband to take a look at a car problem or maybe stop in to say hello for a minute or if he needs to borrow something. Possibly take him to lunch once in a long while or we could stop by the brewery he works at to have a drink. Things like that. The day to day little things we do not experience.

Like people ask us what are we doing for Easter. Ummm well- nothing. We barely know it is Easter. We haven’t seen our son on his birthday in many years- even the milestone ones like 30. And he has not seen us on ours. ( not sure if HE cares. lol!) Like my husband just turned 65. We have nothing going on. You get the picture.

Soooo.....I do hope we can move near our son- even just to see him once in a great while for 5 minutes. Makes the XMAS and Thanksgiving holidays easier also. And we wouldn’t have to give up our timeshares.


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## TravelTime (Apr 19, 2019)

Conan said:


> I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the state income tax question. State income taxes even for higher earners in high-tax states max out at about 5% of total income--not necessarily a deal-breaker.
> The big ticket items are housing costs (what you're selling, net of commissions and moving costs, vs. the purchase price in the new place), and real estate tax.
> 
> I'm more concerned about culture, climate, and quality of medical services (if there even is such a thing as quality medical these days).
> ...


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## TravelTime (Apr 19, 2019)

Not sure how you got to 5%. In California, the average person pays 9-10% in state income tax since it is pretty easy to get there. And many of us reach the 13% level too.


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## Luanne (Apr 19, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Our son is not married and we have no grandchildren or other children for that matter. To answer your question- NO- we would not follow our son or his family if he had one.


I was actually asking Cindy.


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## bbodb1 (Apr 19, 2019)

bnoble said:


> Local culture, amenities, and maybe weather will trump taxes for me, but I'm also in a position where that is possible. *In general, I find that areas with more significant tax obligations also have social and government policies that I am more than willing to support*.



BNoble,

It is interesting you make this point and I will admit my first reaction (especially to the bolded part) was disagreement.  I don't see a strong correlation (again referring to the bolded statement) that you do.
BUT - I do appreciate areas that have a sound development plan and execute them well.  If the taxes are high (or higher) in those areas, I can at least see tangible benefits to the tax burden and would likely be more tolerant of a higher tax burden. 

From our days in Minnesota, I recall higher taxes (especially compared to that we experience in Arkansas) BUT in Minnesota, the community we lived in had an excellent plan for developing neighborhood parks and maintaining wetlands - and executed it, which really helped develop a neighborhood feel.  In Arkansas, not so much so - at least in the areas I am familiar with.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 19, 2019)

Luanne said:


> I was actually asking Cindy.



Sorry. Thought it was a general question


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## Luanne (Apr 19, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Sorry. Thought it was a general question


It kind of was.  I'm interested in everyone's input.  Cindy just stated that she wouldn't leave her grandchildren, and kids.


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## klpca (Apr 19, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Not sure how you got to 5%. In California, the average person pays 9-10% in state income tax since it is pretty easy to get there. And many of us reach the 13% level too.


Maybe as a percentage of gross income vs taxable income. We aren't in the 13% bracket but are firmly in the 9.4% bracket, yet our overall tax on gross is somewhere between 4% and 5%. I did our taxes in March and remember looking at it at the time. For us, state tax is not life changing money and would be near the bottom of any decision on where to live.

My first priority is family and so far two kids live nearby and one lives up the coast - 5ish hours. My mom lives 5 min from us and my dad, as well as my in-laws live about 1.5-2 hrs away. At this stage of *their* lives, there's just no way that we could leave. Both my mom and dad had hospitalizations last month. Between my husband and I, all four parents are alive, healthy and in their eighties. Things are starting to happen, but since my grandparents lived to almost 100, I figure that we've just started this journey. We're stuck like a cork in a bottle and I can't see moving ever. Maybe to a different house, but we'll most likely stay pretty close to home. Good thing that we like it because it looks like we are staying.


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## Conan (Apr 19, 2019)

TravelTime said:


> Not sure how you got to 5%. In California, the average person pays 9-10% in state income tax since it is pretty easy to get there. And many of us reach the 13% level too.



I filled in this calculator, married filing jointly, with zero W-2, zero self-employment, zero social security, and $28,000 itemized deductions (that's the standard deduction for a married elder couple).
https://www.irscalculators.com/tax-calculator
To get a 5% overall California tax rate, I had to use unearned income of $147,000.
Federal income tax came to $17,897 = 12.17%
California income tax came to $7,359 = 5.01%
Any less than $147,000 and California income tax falls below 5%.

If I also add in say $53,000 of social security for a round number of $200,000 total income the federal income tax goes up by $10,000 while the California income tax stays the same (because California doesn't tax social security). The larger denominator causes the calculator to characterize the same $7,359 tax as = 3.68% overall rate.


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## bnoble (Apr 19, 2019)

bbodb1 said:


> From our days in Minnesota, I recall higher taxes (especially compared to that we experience in Arkansas) BUT in Minnesota, the community we lived in had an excellent plan for developing neighborhood parks and maintaining wetlands - and executed it, which really helped develop a neighborhood feel. In Arkansas, not so much so - at least in the areas I am familiar with.


This is exactly the sort of thing I am thinking about.


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## VacationForever (Apr 19, 2019)

Conan said:


> I filled in this calculator, married filing jointly, with zero W-2, zero self-employment, zero social security, and $28,000 itemized deductions (that's the standard deduction for a married elder couple).
> https://www.irscalculators.com/tax-calculator
> To get a 5% overall California tax rate, I had to use unearned income of $147,000.
> Federal income tax came to $17,897 = 12.17%
> ...


I don't think this online calculator is accurate.  I put in hypothetical numbers and I know that the marginal tax should be at 22%.  While the box that says "Federal Income Tax" does correctly indicate 22%, at Total Tax box it shows 37%.  I selected a no income tax state.

I copied and pasted below.
Marginal
Average
Amount
*Federal Income Tax*
22.00% (Marginal)
9.07% (Average)
$10,580.90
0.00%
0.00%
$0.00
*Social Security Taxes*
0.00%
0.00%
$0.00
*Medicare Taxes*
0.00%
0.00%
$0.00
Total Tax
37.00% (Marginal)
9.07% (Average)
$10,580.90


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## Conan (Apr 19, 2019)

I'll redo it by hand:
Federal AGI 147,000
Federal TI 147,000 - 27,000 = 120,000 . [I used 28,000 above which was off by 1,000]
Federal tax  9,086 + (120,000 - 78,950)*.22 = 18,117
18,117/147,000 = 12.3%

California (2018 rates)
Federal AGI 147,000
CA standard deduction 8,472
CA tax after standard deduction and 2 exemptions  7,123
https://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/2018/18_540_2ez_taxtable_married.pdf
Senior exemptions 236
Tax $6,887
6,887/147,000 = 4.68%


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## TravelTime (Apr 19, 2019)

Conan said:


> I filled in this calculator, married filing jointly, with zero W-2, zero self-employment, zero social security, and $28,000 itemized deductions (that's the standard deduction for a married elder couple).
> https://www.irscalculators.com/tax-calculator
> To get a 5% overall California tax rate, I had to use unearned income of $147,000.
> Federal income tax came to $17,897 = 12.17%
> ...



Wow, this is very interesting. I keep telling my husband if we reduce our income, we will have more take home pay. I feel like we work to pay taxes now.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 20, 2019)

Well- here's another link that was just posted today by a member of one of my Facebook Groups.

https://wallethub.com/edu/state-taxpayer-roi-report/3283/

Tax Day can be a painful reminder of how much we have to invest in federal, state and local governments, though many of us are unaware of exactly what they give us in return. As a result, this creates a disconnect in the minds of taxpayers between the amount of money we should fork over every April and how much we deserve in return.

Perhaps that’s why, according to WalletHub’s Taxpayer Survey, 55% of U.S. adults feel they pay too much in taxes and why 90% don’t think that the government uses tax revenue wisely. We do know, however, that taxpayer return on investment, or ROI, varies based where one lives. Federal income-tax rates are uniform across the nation, yet some states receive far more federal funding than others. But federal taxes and support are only part of the story.

Different states have dramatically different tax burdens. This begs the question of whether people in high-tax states receive superior government services. Likewise, are low-tax states more efficient or do they receive low-quality services? In short, where do taxpayers get the most and least bang for their buck?

WalletHub aimed to answer that question by contrasting state and local tax collections with the quality of the services residents receive in each of the 50 states within five categories: Education, Health, Safety, Economy, and Infrastructure & Pollution. Our data set includes a total of 30 key metrics. Read on for our findings, methodology and commentary from a panel of experts.

 1 Main Findings  2 Red States vs. Blue States  3 Detailed Breakdown by State
 4 Ask the Experts: Taxes as an Investment  5 Methodology

*Main Findings*
115050
Embed on your website



State and Local Taxes Paid vs. Spending Received by State

* 
‘Taxpayer ROI’ Rank
(1=Best)

* *
State


‘Total Taxes Paid per Capita’ Rank*


‘Overall Government Services’ Rank
*
1 New Hampshire 2 7
2 South Dakota 10 17
3 Florida 3 33
4 Virginia 17 8
5 Colorado 14 16
6 Missouri 6 37
7 Texas 5 38
8 Georgia 11 34
9 Nebraska 22 13
10 Wyoming 26 10
11 Utah 30 11
12 Wisconsin 36 5
13 Ohio 16 26
14 Alaska 1 49
15 Rhode Island 33 12
16 Indiana 23 20
17 Tennessee 8 40
18 Oklahoma 12 39
19 Iowa 37 9
20 Montana 15 32
21 South Carolina 4 45
22 Maine 35 15
23 Arizona 7 44
24 Idaho 25 23
25 Kentucky 21 30
26 North Carolina 19 35
27 Michigan 27 27
28 Kansas 28 28
29 Illinois 32 25
30 Pennsylvania 29 29
31 Alabama 9 47
32 Washington 39 19
33 New Jersey 40 14
34 Oregon 31 36
35 Massachusetts 43 4
36 Minnesota 48 1
37 West Virginia 20 41
38 Maryland 41 21
39 Delaware 42 24
40 New York 44 18
41 Connecticut 46 6
42 Mississippi 18 46
43 Vermont 49 2
44 North Dakota 47 3
45 Nevada 34 43
46 Louisiana 13 50
47 Arkansas 38 42
48 California 45 31
49 New Mexico 24 48
50 Hawaii 50 22
*“Per Capita” includes the population aged 18 and older.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 20, 2019)

Deleted


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## Glynda (Apr 20, 2019)

geist1223 said:


> We have been looking at Boulder City, Nevada. No income tax and low property taxes. Also a lot closer to Grand kids. One day travel vice two. Then my son goes and tells us they might be moving to Charlotte NC. No tax advantages for retirees in NC. But there is in SC. So we are researching homes from Greenville to Spartanburg. We would only be a couple hours from the Grandkids. We could get a house like ours with more property for less than half the money. So we will wait and see what happens to the kids. My son says if they move it will most likely be their last move until the Grandkids are out of High School. It would be their 4th move in 5 years of marriage.



Greenville is my second favorite city in SC, but you would be even closer in the Rock Hill area. Lived there long ago and loved the proximity to Charlotte.


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## Glynda (Apr 20, 2019)

If I am correct, Charleston, SC, property tax is 4% of assessed value for a primary home, 6% for second homes. We pay around $6,500 property tax on our approximately 3,000 sq.ft. primary home. Almost $10,000 on our 1170 sq ft. second home which we have owned a long time and is not assessed anywhere near what it would be valued. Charleston sales tax is 9%. 13% hospitality tax. State income tax 3-7%. Sales tax on purchase of a vehicle is capped at $300. SC has one of the lowest gas taxes, and thus gas prices, in the US. Unfortunately that results in poor road and bridge maintenance. We do have tons of culture, history, and amenities here. But with it comes tourism, traffic and over-building. And the heat in the summer...


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## Glynda (Apr 20, 2019)

Luanne said:


> We don't have grandchildren.  Maybe if we did I'd feel differently.  But, question for you, if those families moved farther away would you move to be closer?



Since the 1980's we knew that we would retire here. As it turned out our only child, daughter, stayed in SC to go to college after we relocated elsewhere for hubby's work. She returned to CHS after she graduated, married a local boy and they have our only grandchild. That's when we bought a second house here. Hubby traveled for work extensively so I spent 50% of my time here and had lots of time with our granddaughter, a check in the bank, and a date and a handyman on the weekends/vacations. What could be better?   Alas, we saw more of our daughter and granddaughter at that time than we have since we retired and brought my mother here to live with us. Our granddaughter started to move on from "Mimi & Granddaddy time" at around 12 years old. She's too busy and wrapped up in her friends, boyfriend, iPhone, sports and school work to spend time with us. Our daughter works, cares for their home, runs around with/for our granddaughter and we rarely see her. Hoping they will come back to us someday but I'm glad that we didn't choose to retire here because they live here.


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## TravelTime (Apr 20, 2019)

I do not understand why people chase their grandchildren. My stepmother is finding out the hard way that grandkids do not bond as much to grandparents as grandparents bond to grandkids. It is sad to see since she has always been so close to her kids and I had always assumed she was super close to the grandkids. But now that they are becoming teenagers, the grandkids are busy with their own lives.


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## Luvtoride (Apr 21, 2019)

Glynda said:


> Since the 1980's we knew that we would retire here. As it turned out our only child, daughter, stayed in SC to go to college after we relocated elsewhere for hubby's work. She returned to CHS after she graduated, married a local boy and they have our only grandchild. That's when we bought a second house here. Hubby traveled for work extensively so I spent 50% of my time here and had lots of time with our granddaughter, a check in the bank, and a date and a handyman on the weekends/vacations. What could be better?   Alas, we saw more of our daughter and granddaughter at that time than we have since we retired and brought my mother here to live with us. Our granddaughter started to move on from "Mimi & Granddaddy time" at around 12 years old. She's too busy and wrapped up in her friends, boyfriend, iPhone, sports and school work to spend time with us. Our daughter works, cares for their home, runs around with/for our granddaughter and we rarely see her. Hoping they will come back to us someday but I'm glad that we didn't choose to retire here because they live here.



And this is the “heart” of this issue as far as I’m concerned.  Does one choose a retirement home based on love  or money  or some combination of the two?  

We just had our 3rd Grandchild this winter.  We are fortunate that he and our 2 granddaughters live relatively close by in the NY/ NJ area. The other grandma (to our new grandson) just had her son/ DIL and granddaughter (under a year old) pick up and move to Florida due to a career opportunity for her son (the announcement and the moved all happened within 3 weeks).  She is upset and resigning herself to the fact that she won’t get the chance to watch her GD grow up as she will her grandson. Moving to Florida would be a more cost effective way to retire (she is still working) but I doubt she will make that choice.  

True, we never know where our kids and grandkids lives could end up taking them but chasing them around the country doesn’t sound like the best decision maker (as doesn’t plugging numbers into a program to determine lowest tax rates/ costs of living).  

We are fortunate now to have our family close by and to be able to “afford”  the NY/NJ area to live (we’re not retired yet either).  We may not always be able to “have our cake and eat it too”.  Tough choices!  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## geist1223 (Apr 21, 2019)

Patti and and are pretty resigned to the kids and Gkids moving to NC and only seeing them once per year or every other year. Though we are still looking at houses in SC with REDFIN.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 21, 2019)

Getting older is very hard. The thought of seeing our son less than we even do now makes me very sad. Having no friends or family nearby right now, I can tell you it ain't good. Sure- you can make some acquaintances by joining something or maybe living in a senior community, but it is never the same as family and very close friends you grew up with. I am sure there are exceptions. Let's face it- the other seniors are "old" also and have their own issues. Some might have family and are involved with them most of the time. You can have fun with these people - maybe play golf with them or bridge or whatever, and have someone to talk to at the pool- I will grant you that. Better than nothing. Take what you can get. And that goes for tax breaks and lower cost of living also.

But-when it comes down to it- maybe you lose a spouse- who is going to care about you? No one. Just you- and maybe your dog if you have one.

I know I am being cynical. But I am feeling like this lately as we try to decide what we will do in the future. It takes a lot of bravery I can tell you that.


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## rapmarks (Apr 21, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Getting older is very hard. The thought of seeing our son less than we even do now makes me very sad. Having no friends or family nearby right now, I can tell you it ain't good. Sure- you can make some acquaintances by joining something or maybe living in a senior community, but it is never the same as family and very close friends you grew up with. I am sure there are exceptions. Let's face it- the other seniors are "old" also and have their own issues. Some might have family and are involved with them most of the time. You can have fun with these people - maybe play golf with them or bridge or whatever, and have someone to talk to at the pool- I will grant you that. Better than nothing. Take what you can get. And that goes for tax breaks and lower cost of living also.
> 
> But-when it comes down to it- maybe you lose a spouse- who is going to care about you? No one. Just you- and maybe your dog if you have one.
> 
> I know I am being cynical. But I am feeling like this lately as we try to decide what we will do in the future. It takes a lot of bravery I can tell you that.


Very sad commentary  you still are young, you have a lot of time left


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## WinniWoman (Apr 21, 2019)

rapmarks said:


> Very sad commentary  you still are young, you have a lot of time left



Oh, I know. I have worked around the elderly and sick for way too long in healthcare and in dealing with my own family, I guess. I am a realist and I am alone a lot and have a lot of time to think.  But that is not to say I do not have energy and hopes and dreams. I am very future oriented. Just keeping my eyes wide open.


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## DaveNV (Apr 21, 2019)

rapmarks said:


> Very sad commentary  you still are young, you have a lot of time left



Agreed. My plan is to do what works for us, not so we can try to be involved in the lives of those we care about. My family and friends are scattered about. We stay in touch by phone and online, getting together as we can. Lifelong friends are fewer than they were, and the list grows smaller quite often. Rather than chasing what used to be, we prefer to live in the "now," and doing what we enjoy. The rest will take care of itself. New friends are out there, waiting to be met. 

Dave


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## bbodb1 (Apr 21, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Getting older is very hard. The thought of seeing our son less than we even do now makes me very sad. Having no friends or family nearby right now, I can tell you it ain't good. Sure- you can make some acquaintances by joining something or maybe living in a senior community, but it is never the same as family and very close friends you grew up with. I am sure there are exceptions. Let's face it- the other seniors are "old" also and have their own issues. Some might have family and are involved with them most of the time. You can have fun with these people - maybe play golf with them or bridge or whatever, and have someone to talk to at the pool- I will grant you that. Better than nothing. Take what you can get. And that goes for tax breaks and lower cost of living also.
> 
> But-when it comes down to it- maybe you lose a spouse- who is going to care about you? No one. Just you- and maybe your dog if you have one.
> 
> I know I am being cynical. But I am feeling like this lately as we try to decide what we will do in the future. It takes a lot of bravery I can tell you that.



I see this as factual (not cynical) for many reasons, but let me offer this thought - as we (in general, as a society) have move further away from the traditional nuclear and extended family structures that used to be so common, we've become increasingly geographically spread out and (as a result) more disconnected as families.  I know that all of us around here are aware of this fact (some of us more acutely than others).  That fact alone has many negative consequences but one very obvious reality is our family time opportunities diminish as we age.  I've said this before in other threads but one of the more uncertain times in my life has been the period of time after all the kids have moved out - what to do with the time that is no longer consumed by your kids.  

Mary Ann, your point is another excellent observation about that period of time after the kids are no longer around on a regular basis.  Interacting with other people (even those near your own age) might be fine for a small bit of satisfaction, but it just doesn't replace family interaction or the friends one made when they were younger.  There really are fewer stands of commonality available to us anymore - and those strands are necessary to form meaningful friendships IMO.  One can't just plop one's self into a new situation and expect to make friends out of strangers and expect a meaningful relationship to bloom.  It just doesn't happen that way.  Perhaps what I am laboring to say here is the increased mobility of our society these days is (severely) weakening our family bonds.  

I don't mean to be Doug today, but I too am feeling as you described.


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## VacationForever (Apr 21, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Getting older is very hard. The thought of seeing our son less than we even do now makes me very sad. Having no friends or family nearby right now, I can tell you it ain't good. Sure- you can make some acquaintances by joining something or maybe living in a senior community, but it is never the same as family and very close friends you grew up with. I am sure there are exceptions. Let's face it- the other seniors are "old" also and have their own issues. Some might have family and are involved with them most of the time. You can have fun with these people - maybe play golf with them or bridge or whatever, and have someone to talk to at the pool- I will grant you that. Better than nothing. Take what you can get. And that goes for tax breaks and lower cost of living also.
> 
> But-when it comes down to it- maybe you lose a spouse- who is going to care about you? No one. Just you- and maybe your dog if you have one.
> 
> I know I am being cynical. But I am feeling like this lately as we try to decide what we will do in the future. It takes a lot of bravery I can tell you that.


We moved away from my only child for retirement and the flight to see him is a little over an hour.  It has been a good thing because he lived with us and living alone now makes him understand things like utility bills, HOA fees and property taxes.  

He wants me to move in with him if my husband passes away before me.  I would much prefer that he moves in with me but since we are talking about a couple of decades out I am not concerned.  I see him a couple of times a year, down from 4 to 5 times in the first year of our move, and it is working out well.  If I were to move back to California, I will likely buy another home close to his home instead of living with him.  But I am not going to worry about it.

Since our move we have become good friends with 2 couples and they join us about half the time or more on our timeshare vacations.  

It will all work out in the end.  So don't worry about the future.  All the best!


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## rapmarks (Apr 21, 2019)




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## WinniWoman (Apr 21, 2019)

rapmarks said:


> View attachment 11410




Reminds me of that "Love You Forever" book. I read it to my son all the time when he was little.


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## DaveNV (Apr 21, 2019)

Following on to my earlier comment, (which may have seemed rather insensitive, unintentionally), I should probably explain that my entire life has been lived out of a suitcase, more or less. There has never been long-term stability provided by location or close family ties.  Stability in my world is self-made, and always has been. I never doubted the abiding love and support of my family, but I was terribly independent at an early age, and things haven't changed. 

I am the product of a tumultuous childhood as a military brat, complicated by multiple parental divorces, and frequent moves as my (mostly) single Mom tried to improve the quality of her family's lives.  I lived in no less than 27 different houses before I was 18.  I attended 13 schools in 12 years in five states, and, (to the surprise of everyone but me), I graduated high school with remarkably good grades. Throwing myself into my schoolwork WAS the stability I needed in my life.

Then I joined the military myself, and I spent the next 20 years of my life unintentionally recreating my childhood - frequent moves, (sometimes from one coast to the other), my own divorce, and being the custodial single parent to my own kids.  I did my best, but trying to juggle my Navy career with single parenthood was no easy task, and my two kids often found themselves living with my Mom and Step Dad (her husband #6), while I was overseas for months at a time.  Nobody every complained, because it was our "normal."  Life was never stable, for any of us. I encouraged my kids to become self-sufficient and independent at their own pace, and they've both done well with that.

Now retired from the military for more than 25 years, and as "stable" as I've ever been, (living in the same community for 19 years now, despite moving three times), I find my life is no more emotionally settled now than it was when I was a kid.  Family is spread out, and even those who live nearby don't visit often.  We're in touch regularly via online options, but face to face visits are rare - in either direction.  We all understand that, and nobody thinks it's unusual.  It's our lives, as they've worked out.  No shortage of love and affection, but not a lot of direct interaction.  Everyone is fiercely independent, "doing our own thing," and the bonds we have are based on respect for that degree of independence.  As I look at retiring later this year, I don't see any burning reason to stay where we are.  We can live anywhere, because it's not about family in person, it's about the level of connection we have already established between us. 

I accept that I have a deeply-rooted wanderlust, borne of my life spent on-the-go, and my retirement is an excuse to exercise that urge.   My kids and grandkids will be fine, and I know we all care about each other.  But for all the years spent trying to make the lives of others work, finally, it's time for me to enjoy it my own way.  I'm itching to get on with it.

And that's a very exciting thing for me.  I can't wait to see what's around the next corner. 

Dave


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## VacationForever (Apr 21, 2019)

DaveNW said:


> Following on to my earlier comment, (which may have seemed rather insensitive, unintentionally), I should probably explain that my entire life has been lived out of a suitcase, more or less. There has never been long-term stability provided by location or close family ties.  Stability in my world is self-made, and always has been. I never doubted the abiding love and support of my family, but I was terribly independent at an early age, and things haven't changed.
> 
> I am the product of a tumultuous childhood as a military brat, complicated by multiple parental divorces, and frequent moves as my (mostly) single Mom tried to improve the quality of her family's lives.  I lived in no less than 27 different houses before I was 18.  I attended 13 schools in 12 years in five states, and, (to the surprise of everyone but me), I graduated high school with remarkably good grades. Throwing myself into my schoolwork WAS the stability I needed in my life.
> 
> ...



Very well said.  I am a wanderlust as well. I have lived in 3 countries, one where I was born, raised and schooled, next 2 where my work relocated me. I would have moved to Europe if my work had posted me there as well.  Nothing really holds me back other than now that I am older and retired, I am carrying too much possessions - household stuff, to keep moving.  I do not want to move again as I love where we live where beauty and peace surround us.  I am willing to make one more move if it comes to that I want to move closer to my son, or maybe not.


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## rapmarks (Apr 21, 2019)

Because of my husband’s health, this may be the last year we can go to Wisconsin for the summer.   I will miss my grandsons terribly when we have to stop.  Their father died last Memorial Day, and they are still dealing with it.  I try to do as much as possible with them when I am there and go to Scouts, swimming classes, and sports lessons with them.  Their mother works so much, and can’t get them to after school activities.  If they moved out of Wisconsin, I wouldn’t go back there anymore.


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## geist1223 (Apr 21, 2019)

I was a military he at until age 16. In my first 6 years I lived 7 places. Then luckily spent 4 years in Oahu and 6 years in Los Angeles - Canoga Park and San Pedro. Dad retired and we moved to Independence, Oregon population 1,800 and we did not live in town but on a 20 acre mini farm. My Dad's dream. Simply put I did not have much in common with my high school classmates for my junior and senior year. I could not wait to get out of there. Now after having lived and traveled all around the countey and world I live in Salem only a few miles from Independence. A characteristic I still carry from my early life is that if I or you move away we have very little contact but when we do meet I am ready to pickup from where we left off.


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## Sugarcubesea (Apr 21, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Getting older is very hard. The thought of seeing our son less than we even do now makes me very sad. Having no friends or family nearby right now, I can tell you it ain't good. Sure- you can make some acquaintances by joining something or maybe living in a senior community, but it is never the same as family and very close friends you grew up with. I am sure there are exceptions. Let's face it- the other seniors are "old" also and have their own issues. Some might have family and are involved with them most of the time. You can have fun with these people - maybe play golf with them or bridge or whatever, and have someone to talk to at the pool- I will grant you that. Better than nothing. Take what you can get. And that goes for tax breaks and lower cost of living also.
> 
> But-when it comes down to it- maybe you lose a spouse- who is going to care about you? No one. Just you- and maybe your dog if you have one.
> 
> I know I am being cynical. But I am feeling like this lately as we try to decide what we will do in the future. It takes a lot of bravery I can tell you that.



I agree, "Getting Older is very Hard"  I  want and need to move somewhere warm. The winters in my state last so long and as I get older, I would not be able to walk outside in the winter without the risk of falling and hurting myself.

My oldest son and his wife have one baby and we live in the same state but only see them on special holidays and events. I remember how busy I was when I was starting my career and I get it..So if I move to a warm state, I would still see them about the same amount of time..

My 2 younger children are just starting their careers and even thou they both live at home still, I rarely see them with their busy lives and work.  I now travel a ton for work  (got a promotion I really didn't want but hey it gets me to my retirement goals at a quicker time frame)  The company I work for trends on having the mature worker vs younger workers so all of us chat a bunch about retirement.  Five of my colleagues have purchased 2nd homes / condos in FL and or AZ and they picked communities that have a very active social life... That is my goal because all of those folks are starting from ground zero so they all start to make new friends around them.

In the last 4 years I have lost 5 long term friends and that is very hard.

So I keep working and saving and hope I have enough by 65 or close to it to retire.


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## DaveNV (Apr 21, 2019)

geist1223 said:


> I was a military he at until age 16. In my first 6 years I lived 7 places. Then luckily spent 4 years in Oahu and 6 years in Los Angeles - Canoga Park and San Pedro. Dad retired and we moved to Independence, Oregon population 1,800 and we did not live in town but on a 20 acre mini farm. My Dad's dream. Simply put I did not have much in common with my high school classmates for my junior and senior year. I could not wait to get out of there. Now after having lived and traveled all around the countey and world I live in Salem only a few miles from Independence. A characteristic I still carry from my early life is that if I or you move away we have very little contact but when we do meet I am ready to pickup from where we left off.



Exactly.   My best friend from high school and I are still great friends.  We live on opposite coasts, although we're regularly in touch online.  I see him from time to time, and it's just like that - the conversations pick up as if we were never apart.  I'll be seeing him and his wife again next month, when they join us on the cruise we're taking to the Yucatan.  

Dave


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## WinniWoman (Apr 21, 2019)

Wow, Dave. Thanks for your perspective. I totally get what you stated.

I happen to be a homebody and kind of an introvert- or at least prefer introversion. You would not know it if you met me as I am very social- maybe a borderline extrovert.

Anyway- I know people poo poo astrology but I am into it. I am a Cancer and you can't get anymore homebody that that! In fact, I am a double Cancer and my husband, although an Aries, has a Cancer ascendant.

I had a stressful, tense childhood because of my dad's alcoholism. We were always on edge in the home. A lot of yelling and screaming and punching walls. In fact, my parents almost lost the house because of my dad's business failures. Had to use our money (the kid's) to help salvage everything.

My parents moved up to the country with us from our Bronx apartment (I was 3) and the house was their American dream. They never moved away from that house. They loved it.  There for over 55 years. Even my grandparents moved up from the Bronx when they retired and bought a house on a road behind my parents. I spent my childhood playing in the apple orchard and farms and woods behind our home and visiting my grandparents by walking through these areas and across a florist greenhouse farm. In those days, no one worried about kids walking by themselves through these areas. Even as a child, I loved the country. The sheep and cows were my friends.

I got married at 21 years old- not surprising- and immediately we bought a home in the country (that handyman special I always talk about) and dogs for me to nurture (my parents could never handle owning dogs and one of our dogs ran away and the other they put down- long story). I always loved dogs.

I craved peace in the home and I finally got it. We worked on that home all the time, with some vacations in between and as you know, after 10 years and me pregnant, we moved to this home and have been in it 31 years.

I wanted to move 10-15 years ago to Vermont but hubby did not want to. He did not want to give up the house we worked so hard on or have to look for another job in a state with hardly any employment opportunities at his age. Didn't blame him. I love Vermont and after vacationing there so much I felt like it was more like "home" then NY was. Of course, in NY we were always working. In Vermont we were on vacation! And made great memories with our son.

I might add I only have one brother. He lives on Long Island and also is a snowbird (Fla.). No sister to talk to. My husband's both sisters are deceased- died at young ages. He has no brother. And we have our one and only child, Alex.

Our friends and family all live like 2 hours from here- some 3. Down in Long Island and the NYC Burroughs. One in Connecticut and another also in Connect. on the Massachusetts border. One in PA. Have their kids and grandchildren. In the community here I only know a few people - but not for social. They also have kids and grandchildren keeping them very busy. One I know will be moving south soon. I will attend an occasional town meeting and see a couple of them.

I am also the one who likes to travel, but I am a cautious traveler. But I do not like flying as I have said numerous times, but will do it if I really want to go somewhere. I like to hunker in when I go somewhere, though I have an itinerary for every day, even if one day is relaxing by the pool. I have changed my pace on vacations now. Whereas I used to have to see everything every single hour that we were away, cramming in as much as possible, I have slowed down now a bit (though some (like hubby) would beg to differ). Husband does not plan travel and can take it or leave it, though he enjoys it once we are at our destination.Timeshares have helped in this regard. I guess this is why I like timeshares so much. Feels like a second "home".

I might add, however, that even when we go on vacation, I do not leave our home easily. OCD and worry kick in and I stress a bit and have to check and double check everything before we leave. But once we are on our way, I am elated! I guess I need to feel secure. That's my buzzword- Security.

But back to our house, we are real house/home people, though I do feel I can make a home anywhere. But being here so long we have a lot invested in this place financially and emotionally.  Top it off with my OCD/clean freak/neat nut/controlling personality, it won't be that easy to leave. And hubby is not into planning and finances and logistics and reality (sometimes) so I am practically on my own with a most of it.

But we are determined to do it and we really have to. And we will probably have to move twice as we will have to rent something first and we have never been renters.

So you can get the picture of where I am coming from....


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## WinniWoman (Apr 21, 2019)

QUOTE: Sugarcubesea: *"Five of my colleagues have purchased 2nd homes / condos in FL and or AZ and they picked communities that have a very active social life... That is my goal because all of those folks are starting from ground zero so they all start to make new friends around them."
*
I so wish we could buy our next home before we sell our home. That would make me feel very secure knowing we have something to go to and we could even start working on moving things into it right now. Most people I know have also done this. Unfortunately, we can't afford it. 

I have been contacting real estate people in New England. Homes are snapped up in days. And the 55+ communities have no resales at all!


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## WinniWoman (Apr 21, 2019)

DaveNW said:


> Exactly.   My best friend from high school and I are still great friends.  We live on opposite coasts, although we're regularly in touch online.  I see him from time to time, and it's just like that - the conversations pick up as if we were never apart.  I'll be seeing him and his wife again next month, when they join us on the cruise we're taking to the Yucatan.
> 
> Dave




It is like that with our friends also. We have a once per year reunion at our home with like 20 of them and it is so much fun.

My best friend though now has a new best friend because we do not see each other. Understandable. But we still love each other. In fact, she just recently called me and we were on the phone for like 2 hours.

Facebook has been great as well to keep in touch with people. Again- take what I can get!


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## bogey21 (Apr 21, 2019)

DaveNW said:


> Following on to my earlier comment, (which may have seemed rather insensitive, unintentionally), I should probably explain that my entire life has been lived out of a suitcase, more or less. There has never been long-term stability provided by location or close family ties.  Stability in my world is self-made, and always has been. I never doubted the abiding love and support of my family, but I was terribly independent at an early age, and things haven't changed.



I see things similarly.  The day after I graduated from High School I moved out of my parents house (my choice).  Obviously family wasn't all that important to me.  I have 2 kids. 3 grand kids and 2 ex-wives none of which I see more than once or twice a year.  On the other hand I talk to all but the grand kids a couple of times a week and often trade emails with them all.  And this includes my 2 ex-wives!  I also have a Brother who is 8 years younger than me.  We talk twice a year.  I call him on his birthday and he calls me on mine.  Each time we talk for about 2 hours and catch up on each other's lives.  Basically I am happy being uncoupled...

George


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## slip (Apr 21, 2019)

I have really been blessed my whole life. My mother and father were the definition of stability. They lived in the same house for all of mine and my siblings lives. No abuse from my parents and no addiction, my siblings either. My father bought their retirement home in 1973 in Wisconsin where we vacationed every year. Now we went more often and they are all great memories.

I moved to go to college at that house before my father retired and my brother did the same before me. Neither of us finished college  it went on to stable work with both of us married and live in that same town.

We raised our son and daughter in a house we owned for 20 years and then moved a little out of town in a subdivision 15 years ago. Our daughter bought her house at 20 and moved out and our son did the same at 19. My daughter moved away for her career and we see her once a year or every other year. But we see her and communicate online. Our son still lives in town. He is 20 now and owns his house and only works part time now because he doesn’t need the money. Both our kids are single with nothing on the horizon.

Our kids grew up and got busy with their lives just like we did. With everyone working seeing each other is difficult and it only gets worse as you get older.

It is very nice that we were able to buy our retirement condo while we are still working. We are meeting people and slowly doing things to make it the way we want. It does help that the cost of both of our houses are very reasonable. Both of them are valued less than many peoples main home. We started downsizing with our first move and continued with our condo purchase.

For us, we have not changed our lifestyle. We live the way we want. We raised our kids to be self sufficient and a part of ours lives but not the center our lives. Things may change in the future, they usually do. We don’t know what we’ll do if my wife or I pass but we’ll figure that out as we go along.

Getting old is rough but right now we are looking forward to retirement and what that brings before we start looking past that. Again, I have been blessed.


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## easyrider (Apr 21, 2019)

Some where, over the rainbow, where I imagine the grass is greener, the days are warmer and the sky is bluer, is a place I thought I would retire to. 

Now I realize that I am the rainbow.

Bill


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## Sugarcubesea (Apr 21, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> QUOTE: Sugarcubesea: *"Five of my colleagues have purchased 2nd homes / condos in FL and or AZ and they picked communities that have a very active social life... That is my goal because all of those folks are starting from ground zero so they all start to make new friends around them."
> *
> I so wish we could buy our next home before we sell our home. That would make me feel very secure knowing we have something to go to and we could even start working on moving things into it right now. Most people I know have also done this. Unfortunately, we can't afford it.
> 
> I have been contacting real estate people in New England. Homes are snapped up in days. And the 55+ communities have no resales at all!



Each of my colleagues that purchased homes / condo's did so by taking out mortgages, each of them are either 62, 63 or 64 and are closer to retirement than I am at 57. My closest work buddy who is 64, sold his main residence first, used most of those funds for the 2nd home and then him and the wife moved into an apartment that has a 1 year lease and will move to their new condo this December in Daytona Beach.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 21, 2019)

easyrider said:


> Some where, over the rainbow, where I imagine the grass is greener, the days are warmer and the sky is bluer, is a place I thought I would retire to.
> 
> Now I realize that I am the rainbow.
> 
> Bill




Wow.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 21, 2019)

Sugarcubesea said:


> Each of my colleagues that purchased homes / condo's did so by taking out mortgages, each of them are either 62, 63 or 64 and are closer to retirement than I am at 57. My closest work buddy who is 64, sold his main residence first, used most of those funds for the 2nd home and then him and the wife moved into an apartment that has a 1 year lease and will move to their new condo this December in Daytona Beach.




My husband also says maybe we could take out a mortgage but he will be stopping work so I say no way and so does our Financial Planner, he is adamant about a cash purchase and I agree. Not to mention the other expenses of carrying 2 homes. If ours doesn't sell for some reason or other issues pop up with the sale- it could really hurt us.

We had a realtor come over yesterday but he says he needs time to do the comps and so on and will be in touch on Thursday. Why so long with this info. I have no idea.

Renting really is the best option financially- but not for too long- or it will not be good either. Then there is the cost of the PODS storage.....

If my husband would not need a garage I think we could MAYBE afford to buy a cheapy (I am talking like under $100,000), tiny condo in Waterville Valley, NH, ( a resort town with pools and activities- not 55+- all ages) but long term I am not sure he could handle living in a small place, especially in an area with long winters. I could tolerate it for awhile until our home sold and then we could possibly update the kitchen and a few things later on and I would be ok with it.


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## VacationForever (Apr 21, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> If my husband would not need a garage I think we could MAYBE afford to buy a cheapy (I am talking like under $100,000), tiny condo in Waterville Valley, NH, ( a resort town with pools and activities- not 55+- all ages) but long term I am not sure he could handle living in a small place, especially in an area with long winters. I could tolerate it for awhile until our home sold and then we could possibly update the kitchen and a few things later on and I would be ok with it.



You will be in for a shock when you start looking at cheapy condos.  When we were moving out of California and out of our large home, my son had to look for a small place for himself.  I tried to steer him towards a small newish house but he was set on buying a cheap condo.  He finally picked one, made an offer and got a home inspector in.  The list of fixes needed was very long and many of them depended on HOA to fix structurally.  He tried to contact the HOA and was ignored.  He finally looked at a brand new development that I had put a deposit on months before on his behalf which he went nuclear on me because he did not like the area and of course it was also because I had picked it.  I had to cancel and get back my deposit.  He then chose a home that was going to be built at the same development and he now loves the home.


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## vacationhopeful (Apr 21, 2019)

I have been trying to downsized for over 3.5 years. The family home I took over from my parents (my inheritance) has been my residence for close to 20 years. First realtor (who I had been doing work business for prior 6+ years), took the listing after I took $10,000 OFF her suggested listing price. Never advertised the place other than MLS, put a small metal "For Sale" in the yard and refused to release me after 3 months on NOT working to sell the place. Seems the realtors' in my area, use the marketing theory of "need to lower your price" as the ONLY sale's plan. I had NO SHOWINGS with her cell phone pictures. And I still comment on the 'lack of service'. I did complain to her MULTIPLE times but her boss is her brother and she is the office manager (a C-21 office in business for over 25 years).

Current realtor is another 'winner' ... better pictures (not taken with a cell phone) but he is a listing realtor. Waiting for another Realtor's office to sell it. Sent their photographer to take pictures and bring back the signed listing contract. Did put up a proper big sign. And I HAD to hire a lawyer to deal with my own realtor ... who expects me to FedEx documents back & forth to them. The buyers live less than a mile from me. Yes, I have a $1200 lawyer for settlement next week ... but after buying & selling 25+ properties over the last 30 years in the same area without a lawyer ... it is THAT bad with this realtor and the confusion he kept interjecting. He never called .. ONLY got update emails for showings scheduled. I do NOT have access to a computer during the day and more than 60% of the showings were "No Shows" (the age of computers, I do believe). And I had to 'do the CO' ... with no suggestions from him or his 'staff'. Most real estate listing agents in this area literary 'handhold' the sellers thru the Continued Certificate of Occupancy with the local town or city inspectors ... my realtor just wants to control closing at his office 80+ miles away ... to get his check!

I should have TRUSTED my first vibe with this realtor ... you should NOT be allowed to send a non-licensed person to collect a signature for a real estate contract. And sent the paperwork and photographer back to their (faraway) office. Not notarized!


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## Passepartout (Apr 21, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> You will be in for a shock when you start looking at cheapy condos.  When we were moving out of California and out of our large home, my son had to look for a small place for himself.  I tried to steer him towards a small newish house but he was set on buying a cheap condo.  He finally picked one, [edited for brevity]


When we bought our little 1 BR condo in 'the city', it was after the 2009 recession. It was a short sale, and took some time to convince the bank that it couldn't get more for it than we were offering. My DW had fairly recently inherited some money from her dad's passing and there weren't a lot of options for investing the inheritance

Fast forward to now. Our very nice +-2500 sq ft 4 BR 3BA home w/2 car garage (judging by our own comps) might bring just a bit over $120/sq ft. The 1100 sq ft urban condo with 1 BR 1 BA, $250/mo. association fee, 1 secure parking space in the building's garage, would bring $350 sq/ft. The little condo would sell for nearly $100,000 more than the big house & have ongoing fees. I was flabbergasted to see that.

If either of us (what am I saying 'IF', OK, WHEN one of us) is left alone BOTH of these places will be sold and the remaining spouse will be going to 'The Home'. A CCRC is the best I can hope for in my dotage.

Jim


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## WinniWoman (Apr 21, 2019)

vacationhopeful said:


> I have been trying to downsized for over 3.5 years. The family home I took over from my parents (my inheritance) has been my residence for close to 20 years. First realtor (who I had been doing work business for prior 6+ years), took the listing after I took $10,000 OFF her suggested listing price. Never advertised the place other than MLS, put a small metal "For Sale" in the yard and refused to release me after 3 months on NOT working to sell the place. Seems the realtors' in my area, use the marketing theory of "need to lower your price" as the ONLY sale's plan. I had NO SHOWINGS with her cell phone pictures. And I still comment on the 'lack of service'. I did complain to her MULTIPLE times but her boss is her brother and she is the office manager (a C-21 office in business for over 25 years).
> 
> Current realtor is another 'winner' ... better pictures (not taken with a cell phone) but he is a listing realtor. Waiting for another Realtor's office to sell it. Sent their photographer to take pictures and bring back the signed listing contract. Did put up a proper big sign. And I HAD to hire a lawyer to deal with my own realtor ... who expects me to FedEx documents back & forth to them. The buyers live less than a mile from me. Yes, I have a $1200 lawyer for settlement next week ... but after buying & selling 25+ properties over the last 30 years in the same area without a lawyer ... it is THAT bad with this realtor and the confusion he kept interjecting. He never called .. ONLY got update emails for showings scheduled. I do NOT have access to a computer during the day and more than 60% of the showings were "No Shows" (the age of computers, I do believe). And I had to 'do the CO' ... with no suggestions from him or his 'staff'. Most real estate listing agents in this area literary 'handhold' the sellers thru the Continued Certificate of Occupancy with the local town or city inspectors ... my realtor just wants to control closing at his office 80+ miles away ... to get his check!
> 
> I should have TRUSTED my first vibe with this realtor ... you should NOT be allowed to send a non-licensed person to collect a signature for a real estate contract. And sent the paperwork and photographer back to their (faraway) office. Not notarized!




 I really can't stand realtors.


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## Luanne (Apr 21, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> I really can't stand realtors.


Our realtor in Santa Fe has become one of our best friends. We have dinner with her and her husband once a month and they come to the parties we have.  Whenever I need a recommendation (doctor, hairdresser, house stuff...whatever) I go to her first.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 21, 2019)

Luanne said:


> Our realtor in Santa Fe has become one of our best friends. We have dinner with her and her husband once a month and they come to the parties we have.  Whenever I need a recommendation (doctor, hairdresser, house stuff...whatever) I go to her first.


 
Of course, exceptions. I had a friend once who was a realtor and would not have hesitated to use her.


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## Luanne (Apr 21, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Of course, exceptions. I had a friend once who was a realtor and would not have hesitated to use her.


We also had a very good relationship with our realtor in California.  She both acted as buyer, and seller agent, for us at different times.  We didn't use her for our last move as we weren't still sure she was working (she was quite a bit older than dh and I) and she really didn't specialize in our area, where we were selling.


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## bogey21 (Apr 21, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> We had a realtor come over yesterday but he says he needs time to do the comps and so on and will be in touch on Thursday. *Why so long with this info.* I have no idea.



One of the reasons I selected the Realtor I did to sell my Son's house was because he put together a roughly 20 page book with information on my Son's house.  It included what similar houses in the area had  sold for, tax appraisals for all the surrounding houses and what was currently on the market in the area.  You would be surprised how much information they can put together.  Maybe that is why the guy you are talking to needs time...

George


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## Passepartout (Apr 21, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> I really can't stand realtors.


There is a world of difference between someone with a license to sell real estate (think timeshare sales weasel) and a Realtor. A Realtor is a professional who strives to legally and ethically align the needs of the buyer with the wants of the seller. A Realtor is like any other well educated professional. People who choose a do-it-yourself sign to sell their real estate are like those who get a DIY tax prep software or DIY will or bankruptcy package at Legal Zoom. They might think they got all they are due, but will never know.  I can hardly wait for the DIY root canal or appendectomy.

Jim


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## Glynda (Apr 22, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Getting older is very hard. The thought of seeing our son less than we even do now makes me very sad. Having no friends or family nearby right now, I can tell you it ain't good. Sure- you can make some acquaintances by joining something or maybe living in a senior community, but it is never the same as family and very close friends you grew up with. I am sure there are exceptions. Let's face it- the other seniors are "old" also and have their own issues. Some might have family and are involved with them most of the time. You can have fun with these people - maybe play golf with them or bridge or whatever, and have someone to talk to at the pool- I will grant you that. Better than nothing. Take what you can get. And that goes for tax breaks and lower cost of living also.
> 
> But-when it comes down to it- maybe you lose a spouse- who is going to care about you? No one. Just you- and maybe your dog if you have one.
> 
> I know I am being cynical. But I am feeling like this lately as we try to decide what we will do in the future. It takes a lot of bravery I can tell you that.



I think you might find that neighbors, friends, and/or church family will come to your aid often before family. Especially when they are experiencing, or have experienced, aging and needs associated with it and if you too are there for them. If you involve yourself in activities that lead to enrichment of mind and body you will meet like-minded people who share your interests; you will make friendships and enjoy life to the point that loss of family involvement doesn't sting quite as much. As sad as I sometimes get over our daughter and granddaughter's lack of desire to spend time with us or help us out with my mother, I have come to realize that we can only control ourselves and life is what we make it.


----------



## bogey21 (Apr 22, 2019)

I hadn't used a Realtor  in some 30-35 years until I sold my Son's house.  I didn't know what to expect but was more than pleasantly surprised by the process in place today.  First my guy guided me through the things that needed to be done to groom the house for sale.  Then when little things needed to be addressed as a result of the Buyer's inspection he had a little black book with guys to do the work like immediately and at a very reasonable cost.  The next thing that surprised me was the quality of the photo shoot the Realtor posted on various Internet web sites.  And finally I received an email every time they showed the house with potential Buyer feedback.  Yes, the fee was 6% but 3% went to the Buyer's Agent who as I mentioned in a prior post was the one who held the ultimate sale together.  I never thought I would say this but all in all it was worth the money...

George


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## Glynda (Apr 22, 2019)

vacationhopeful said:


> I have been trying to downsized for over 3.5 years. The family home I took over from my parents (my inheritance) has been my residence for close to 20 years. First realtor (who I had been doing work business for prior 6+ years), took the listing after I took $10,000 OFF her suggested listing price. Never advertised the place other than MLS, put a small metal "For Sale" in the yard and refused to release me after 3 months on NOT working to sell the place. Seems the realtors' in my area, use the marketing theory of "need to lower your price" as the ONLY sale's plan. I had NO SHOWINGS with her cell phone pictures. And I still comment on the 'lack of service'. I did complain to her MULTIPLE times but her boss is her brother and she is the office manager (a C-21 office in business for over 25 years).
> 
> Current realtor is another 'winner' ... better pictures (not taken with a cell phone) but he is a listing realtor. Waiting for another Realtor's office to sell it. Sent their photographer to take pictures and bring back the signed listing contract. Did put up a proper big sign. And I HAD to hire a lawyer to deal with my own realtor ... who expects me to FedEx documents back & forth to them. The buyers live less than a mile from me. Yes, I have a $1200 lawyer for settlement next week ... but after buying & selling 25+ properties over the last 30 years in the same area without a lawyer ... it is THAT bad with this realtor and the confusion he kept interjecting. He never called .. ONLY got update emails for showings scheduled. I do NOT have access to a computer during the day and more than 60% of the showings were "No Shows" (the age of computers, I do believe). And I had to 'do the CO' ... with no suggestions from him or his 'staff'. Most real estate listing agents in this area literary 'handhold' the sellers thru the Continued Certificate of Occupancy with the local town or city inspectors ... my realtor just wants to control closing at his office 80+ miles away ... to get his check!
> 
> I should have TRUSTED my first vibe with this realtor ... you should NOT be allowed to send a non-licensed person to collect a signature for a real estate contract. And sent the paperwork and photographer back to their (faraway) office. Not notarized!



I am a former realtor. I'm sorry you had such bad experiences. I'm not in your shoes and wasn't there but I, would have talked to that "boss" regardless of relationship to the realtor, and insisted that I be released from my agreement as they failed to uphold their end. I would also have reported them to the Board of Realtors in your state and as you did, leave bad reviews on every site I could find. There is no excuse for the current realtor to be so absent from the process. And again, I would make a fuss and speak to his broker-in-charge.  

On the other hand, I understand why realtors insist on a longer contract. When the realtor has done a market analysis for an area and knows the house is overpriced, or that there are other negative considerations that the seller refuses to do anything about, a seasoned realtor ought to walk away. If the realtor does take the listing for a short contract term, at the price the seller insists on, and the house fails to sell within that short time period, the owner often blames the realtor and lists with another realtor who does get them to reduce the price or make changes within the home and lo and behold it sells quickly, as it might have had the seller listened to the first realtor. The first company's time and marketing dollars were wasted (if they did as they should to try to market the house). It's frustrating to a realtor when people hire you for your knowledge and experience but ignore your suggestions only to have them do as you had suggested a few months down the road and another profits. Happens all the time though.


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## klpca (Apr 22, 2019)

Glynda said:


> I am a former realtor. I'm sorry you had such bad experiences. I'm not in your shoes and wasn't there but I, would have talked to that "boss" regardless of relationship to the realtor, and insisted that I be released from my agreement as they failed to uphold their end. I would also have reported them to the Board of Realtors in your state and as you did, leave bad reviews on every site I could find. There is no excuse for the current realtor to be so absent from the process. And again, I would make a fuss and speak to his broker-in-charge.
> 
> On the other hand, I understand why realtors insist on a longer contract. When the realtor has done a market analysis for an area and knows the house is overpriced, or that there are other negative considerations that the seller refuses to do anything about, a seasoned realtor ought to walk away. If the realtor does take the listing for a short contract term, at the price the seller insists on, and the house fails to sell within that short time period, the owner often blames the realtor and lists with another realtor who does get them to reduce the price or make changes within the home and lo and behold it sells quickly, as it might have had the seller listened to the first realtor. The first company's time and marketing dollars were wasted (if they did as they should to try to market the house). It's frustrating to a realtor when people hire you for your knowledge and experience but ignore your suggestions only to have them do as you had suggested a few months down the road and another profits. Happens all the time though.


Hope springs eternal. And anything can and will be sold if the price is right. Every time I hear someone say "my house won't sell. My realtor is awful", my mind says, your price is too high for your home.


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## VacationForever (Apr 22, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> I hadn't used a Realtor  in some 30-35 years until I sold my Son's house.  I didn't know what to expect but was more than pleasantly surprised by the process in place today.  First my guy guided me through the things that needed to be done to groom the house for sale.  Then when little things needed to be addressed as a result of the Buyer's inspection he had a little black book with guys to do the work like immediately and at a very reasonable cost.  The next thing that surprised me was the quality of the photo shoot the Realtor posted on various Internet web sites.  And finally I received an email every time they showed the house with potential Buyer feedback.  Yes, the fee was 6% but 3% went to the Buyer's Agent who as I mentioned in a prior post was the one who held the ultimate sale together.  I never thought I would say this but all in all it was worth the money...
> 
> George


Well said.  Every realtor I had used was very helpful and essential in getting my house ready for sale and got it sold.  I have sold 2 homes in California and used a different agent for each home because their knowledge of the local area.  They both had their go-to handyman, window washing company, housecleaner etc and all at prices that I could not find if I were to look for the same services.  They both hired professional photographers for photoshoot and video.  In each case I paid 5% of the sale price.  For the first home, the agent informed other agents of the upcoming listing of my home and on the first day of listing, another agent got a buyer to pay at listing price.  Without my realtor making the connection before hand, it would not have happened.  All the way to closing, there was not another interested buyer so I was fortunate.  For my second home, it was a very expensive and gorgeous home, including a $200K indoor pool that we had built.  It was beautifully decorated with paintings and furnished.  The interior decorator and upgrades were another $200K and much of which we did not want to take with us as we had already furnished our retirement home.  We knew we were going to lose money on the house but we had to sell it.  We were out $200K from when we bought the place and with adding of the indoor pool.  We had 5 offers and we picked the all cash buyer and closed within a week.  That house would have been easily sold by any realtor but since we were out of state by then, he took care of alot of stuff that we would have needed to do so before closing.


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## OldGuy (Apr 22, 2019)

Yes, please go to New Mexico.  Some who have already gone to Florida, too.


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## bbodb1 (Apr 22, 2019)

With all the references to realtors in this thread, it makes me want to go watch _*American Beauty*_ again......


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## WinniWoman (Apr 22, 2019)

Luanne said:


> We also had a very good relationship with our realtor in California.  She both acted as buyer, and seller agent, for us at different times.  We didn't use her for our last move as we weren't still sure she was working (she was quite a bit older than dh and I) and she really didn't specialize in our area, where we were selling.



When we bought this house we used a realtor as a buyer and seller. Worse thing we ever did because of the conflict of interest. Our attorney told us never to do this again. We were young and naive. We ended up getting rid of her as a seller after the contract expired as she did nothing. We actually WANTED to lower the price. SHE was the one that priced it too high. We went along with everything she suggested. We then hired another realtor from another company to sell our home and it sold quickly after finally lowering the price.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 22, 2019)

I might have mentioned this on another post but I know someone whose home (newly built actually) was for sale with a realtor for a year. As a last ditch effort, she put it on Craigslist and it sold in one day for cash. A man actually moving back to NY from Florida. (How often do you ever hear of that?! Florida to NY instead of visa versa. LOL!)


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## OldGuy (Apr 22, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> A man actually moving back to NY from Florida. (How often do you ever hear of that?! Florida to NY instead of visa versa.



Not often enough.


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## VacationForever (Apr 22, 2019)

We know of many retirees who moved to Nevada from their Florida where they had moved to when they first retired.  The most common complaints about Florida were high home insurance and high humidity which worsen their arthritis and had to move to dryer climate.


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## rapmarks (Apr 22, 2019)

I think the complaint about high property tax is phony, property taxes in Florida beat most states with the freeze and the fifty thousand exemption


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## VacationForever (Apr 22, 2019)

rapmarks said:


> I think the complaint about high property tax is phony, property taxes in Florida beat most states with the freeze and the fifty thousand exemption


I mistyped... I meant high property insurance, something about hurricane risk pushed up their insurance.  I will correct my post.


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## Luanne (Apr 22, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> When we bought this house we used a realtor as a buyer and seller. Worse thing we ever did because of the conflict of interest. Our attorney told us never to do this again. We were young and naive. We ended up getting rid of her as a seller after the contract expired as she did nothing. We actually WANTED to lower the price. SHE was the one that priced it too high. We went along with everything she suggested. We then hired another realtor from another company to sell our home and it sold quickly after finally lowering the price.


I didn't mean we used our realtor in California as both buyer and seller (although she did end up doing both on our last sale for a variety of reasons.  What I meant was she sold our house and helped us buy another.  We ended up selling two homes using her, and buying two homes using her.


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## OldGuy (Apr 22, 2019)

Homeowners Insurance is really cheap if you exclude Wind.  The Wind deductible is so high that even if you have it, your OOP is still very high for a hurricane loss.

& real property tax is low if you declare residency and homestead, already alluded to.  Out-of-state owners of the hundreds of thousands of undeveloped junk lots pay more property tax than homesteaded homeowners.  See Florida Save Our Homes Law.

& there is no personal property tax.

It's a personal choice.

What were we talking about?


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## amycurl (Apr 22, 2019)

> I think you might find that neighbors, friends, and/or church family will come to your aid often before family. Especially when they are experiencing, or have experienced, aging and needs associated with it and if you too are there for them. If you involve yourself in activities that lead to enrichment of mind and body you will meet like-minded people who share your interests; you will make friendships and enjoy life to the point that loss of family involvement doesn't sting quite as much. As sad as I sometimes get over our daughter and granddaughter's lack of desire to spend time with us or help us out with my mother, I have come to realize that we can only control ourselves and life is what we make it.



My mother is retired and now splits her time between us here in NC and her primary residence in Maine. The only grandchild is here....it's the only reason she is down here at all, LOL--hates the heat and humidity, so skedaddles back to Maine by mid-April. This year, she postponed her trip back by one day, so that she could spend all day today taking and staying with a friend while she has spinal surgery. The friend has no local, close family, although a neice is coming up from about a hour away to spend the night with her (so my mom can get sleep and drive early tomorrow morning.) My mom met the friend through AAUW--it's been an important social group for her since she's been spending about the half the year here for about the past six years. My mom is single and is in excellent health, does most of the after-school care for my DD, usually cooks dinner for us twice a week while she is here, and often travels with us for timeshare vacations.  However, she is also very conscious about wanting to make sure that my nuclear family (DH,DD) has privacy and time to ourselves even during the months when she is "Nana in Residence." So, the AAUW buddies have provided some valuable, independent-of-us social connections, which is SO IMPORTANT to any one as they age, and other networks (work networks, parents-of-my-kids'-friends, etc.) might dwindle.

Here's the thing--I would do anything for my mother. But I also am glad to know that she has friends both here and in Maine that will "have her back" when she might need something, and that she is also there for them, too. Asking for help is a gift that you give other people, and can really cement friendships if done in a genuine, reciprocal kind of way.


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## isisdave (Apr 22, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> California's income tax rate is 13.3% at the highest bracket.  If you don't make that much, you are still looking at about 8%.  I did a back of a napkin calculation and with our move to a state without income tax, we save about $14K a year.  Our quality of life is great where you can pretty much golf all year and have the best doctors that we ever had.



We see these numbers lots of places and they sound outrageous, but they're wrong becaus they're MARGINAL rates.  13.3% is the highest MARGINAL rate and applies to taxable income *over *$1.15 million (for couples). The 8% applies to taxable income over $88,000 (again for couples).  But unlike other states, the rates progress fairly slowly until you hit $64,000.

If you have a middle-class mortgage on a middle-class house, total California tax on income that's about $100k before deductions, is about $3800.  My BIL is determined to save money by retiring to Arizona, which has lower rates in the upper brackets. But my $100k example would have an Arizona state tax of just $900 less, which you'll pay in about six weeks for air conditioning in July. And the Pacific Ocean is 350 miles away.

Oregon's tax rates, for example, ramp up VERY quickly, and on that $100k you'd pay over $7000. True, there's no sales tax. I feel that sales tax is not so big a deal in retirement, unless you're buying a vehicle, because you've got most things you need already, and food is generally exempt.

There are state tax calculators online.  If you're thinking about moving because of state income taxes, find a couple and plug in YOUR real numbers.


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## isisdave (Apr 22, 2019)

Conan said:


> If the calculator here is correct, https://www.irscalculators.com/tax-calculator, the California income tax on the same example I gave above ($40,000 exempt social security, $60,000 pension/IRA/other income) is less than $1,250 for a married couple.



Right! Because it doesn't really start to ramp up until > $60k taxable. We have a standard deduction of $8800 this year, so your California couple will have a taxable income of less than $52k (40 + 20 - 8.8)

Here's the line from the tax table:  Taxable income $40,510-$63,938 tax = *$639.32* + 4.00% of amount over $40,510

Only bummer for middle-class investors is that capital gains are taxed at ordinary rates. And that you better have bought your home 20 years ago, or have it paid off.


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## Conan (Apr 22, 2019)

isisdave said:


> _t doesn't really start to ramp up until > $60k taxable. We have a standard deduction of $8800 this year, so your California couple will have a taxable income of less than $52k (40 + 20 - 8.8)._


_I was supporting my assertion that even in high tax states, higher income people pay no more than about 5% state income tax.
A retired couple in California incur 5% overall state income tax on adjusted gross income if/when their federal AGI is $150,000._


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## clifffaith (Apr 22, 2019)

Our last home sale was in 2010/11 during the height of the recession. Of course we’d already bought the new house. We had to insist our friend/realtor (with whom we’d had four previous successful transactions) lower the price as we chased the market down. He seemed more busy trying to get us to paint the house (beautiful three story pink, mint, ivory Victorian) than working on understanding the falling market. When the contract was over at six months, it was “sorry we have to bring fresh blood in”. He was really pissed off, well so were we as we paid two mortgage payments for 10 months. New guy came in after Christmas and it sold in the second month.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 23, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> One of the reasons I selected the Realtor I did to sell my Son's house was because he put together a roughly 20 page book with information on my Son's house.  It included what similar houses in the area had  sold for, tax appraisals for all the surrounding houses and what was currently on the market in the area.  You would be surprised how much information they can put together.  Maybe that is why the guy you are talking to needs time...
> 
> George




I don't know about that. I mean- a few years ago we interviewed 3 realtors. All three did their homework BEFORE coming to our home with the comps. and everything. Then they toured the house and then they gave us a suggested price. And they were all from 3 different companies.

Even when we sold my parent's home in 2011- again we interviewed 3 realtors from 3 different companies and all 3 came prepared with the comps before they toured the house and were able to give us a price before they left.


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## OldGuy (Apr 23, 2019)

It used to be that folks from the upper right hand corner of US migrated to the right hand side of the lower right hand corner of US.

Then, at some point, they discovered the left hand side of the lower right hand corner.  I did not notice when that happened, but I notice that it did.


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## Glynda (Apr 23, 2019)

clifffaith said:


> Our last home sale was in 2010/11 during the height of the recession. Of course we’d already bought the new house. We had to insist our friend/realtor (with whom we’d had four previous successful transactions) lower the price as we chased the market down. He seemed more busy trying to get us to paint the house (beautiful three story pink, mint, ivory Victorian) than working on understanding the falling market. When the contract was over at six months, it was “sorry we have to bring fresh blood in”. He was really pissed off, well so were we as we paid two mortgage payments for 10 months. New guy came in after Christmas and it sold in the second month.



We had one problem using a personal friend for purchasing a home. It cost us and I should have known better.  Actually I did know better but she insisted that the contract wording had changed since I was an active realtor in the state and I didn't push it far enough. The seller, she and her agency profited but I know she didn't do it intentionally. Though this wasn't an example, my overall experience as a former realtor was that one's friends and neighbors often don't want to use you as their realtor because they don't want you to know their personal finance information. 

When a seller feels that a realtor is overpricing their home, they should insist on a written Comparative Market Analysis and should interview several realtors. Every realtor seeking a listing ought to provide a written CMA. If they don't, they are too lazy to handle your listing.


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## Glynda (Apr 23, 2019)

amycurl said:


> My mother is retired and now splits her time between us here in NC and her primary residence in Maine. The only grandchild is here....it's the only reason she is down here at all, LOL--hates the heat and humidity, so skedaddles back to Maine by mid-April. This year, she postponed her trip back by one day, so that she could spend all day today taking and staying with a friend while she has spinal surgery. The friend has no local, close family, although a neice is coming up from about a hour away to spend the night with her (so my mom can get sleep and drive early tomorrow morning.) My mom met the friend through AAUW--it's been an important social group for her since she's been spending about the half the year here for about the past six years. My mom is single and is in excellent health, does most of the after-school care for my DD, usually cooks dinner for us twice a week while she is here, and often travels with us for timeshare vacations.  However, she is also very conscious about wanting to make sure that my nuclear family (DH,DD) has privacy and time to ourselves even during the months when she is "Nana in Residence." So, the AAUW buddies have provided some valuable, independent-of-us social connections, which is SO IMPORTANT to any one as they age, and other networks (work networks, parents-of-my-kids'-friends, etc.) might dwindle.
> 
> Here's the thing--I would do anything for my mother. But I also am glad to know that she has friends both here and in Maine that will "have her back" when she might need something, and that she is also there for them, too. Asking for help is a gift that you give other people, and can really cement friendships if done in a genuine, reciprocal kind of way.



That sounds like a great relationship and a balance of helping and allowing freedom. I have gained numerous friends and found a place to just breathe, learn and exercise at one of our city owned and managed Senior Centers. It allows me to get away for half a day twice a week from the stress of having my 97 year old mother living with us. Even though Mother has provided much help to us, having a parent living in one's home requires some time to oneself (as does having a retired husband ).


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## amycurl (Apr 23, 2019)

I am sure, Glynda! Luckily, even when she's here, my mother doesn't live with us--she purchased a small condo about a half-mile from our house. Just enough distance away, LOL!


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## Glynda (Apr 23, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> I don't know about that. I mean- a few years ago we interviewed 3 realtors. All three did their homework BEFORE coming to our home with the comps. and everything. Then they toured the house and then they gave us a suggested price. And they were all from 3 different companies.
> 
> Even when we sold my parent's home in 2011- again we interviewed 3 realtors from 3 different companies and all 3 came prepared with the comps before they toured the house and were able to give us a price before they left.



If he didn't have time to do his homework before your interview, then he's most likely not organized or motivated enough for you to hire him. 

I'm confused though. Is the home you mention above where 3 realtors from different companies presented a Comparative Market Analysis the home you felt the suggested listing price was overpriced?


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## Sugarcubesea (Apr 23, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> We know of many retirees who moved to Nevada from their Florida where they had moved to when they first retired.  The most common complaints about Florida were high home insurance and high humidity which worsen their arthritis and had to move to dryer climate.



This is my quandary with FL, I love the water and it's literally my happy place. However I have intense arthritis and I know FL will be bad for me and I'm also looking at AZ and Nevada but the fact that I will not be on water and can not have my boat is just a killer for me...ugh...


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## WinniWoman (Apr 23, 2019)

Glynda said:


> If he didn't have time to do his homework before your interview, then he's most likely not organized or motivated enough for you to hire him.
> 
> I'm confused though. Is the home you mention above where 3 realtors from different companies presented a Comparative Market Analysis the home you felt the suggested listing price was overpriced?




No. That was our first home that the realtor overpriced.


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## VacationForever (Apr 23, 2019)

Sugarcubesea said:


> This is my quandary with FL, I love the water and it's literally my happy place. However I have intense arthritis and I know FL will be bad for me and I'm also looking at AZ and Nevada but the fact that I will not be on water and can not have my boat is just a killer for me...ugh...


You can have your boat and go to Lake Mead Recreation for boating stuff or at the lake at Lake Las Vegas itself.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 23, 2019)

https://wallethub.com/edu/t/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494/


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## WinniWoman (Apr 23, 2019)

2016 but interesting

https://taxfoundation.org/real-value-100-each-state-2016


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## WinniWoman (Apr 23, 2019)

One more:
https://wallethub.com/edu/t/states-with-the-highest-and-lowest-property-taxes/11585/

Again, this list is deceiving because some states like NY bill school taxes to porperty owners separately and those are usually the same or higher than property taxes. No way to know by looking at this list which states do that and which ones don't. I wish they would include the school taxes in the dollar amounts if they are billed separately in a state.


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## VacationForever (Apr 23, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> https://wallethub.com/edu/t/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494/


Not sure what constitutes property tax burden.  It is definitely higher on the chart than actual, including when I was in California.


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## OldGuy (Apr 23, 2019)

Sugarcubesea said:


> However I have intense arthritis and I know FL will be bad for me .



Based on the Medical Services map in Conan's post last Friday, International Falls, would be a good place.


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## Lydlady (Apr 23, 2019)

Glynda said:


> If he didn't have time to do his homework before your interview, then he's most likely not organized or motivated enough for you to hire him.
> 
> I'm confused though. Is the home you mention above where 3 realtors from different companies presented a Comparative Market Analysis the home you felt the suggested listing price was overpriced?





Glynda said:


> That sounds like a great relationship and a balance of helping and allowing freedom. I have gained numerous friends and found a place to just breathe, learn and exercise at one of our city owned and managed Senior Centers. It allows me to get away for half a day twice a week from the stress of having my 97 year old mother living with us. Even though Mother has provided much help to us, having a parent living in one's home requires some time to oneself (as does having a retired husband ).



I can so relate to this.  My mother lives with us also.  She will be 90 this year.  I still work full-time but someday when I no longer work full-time, and if she is still with us, I will have to spend some scheduled time away from the house.


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## rapmarks (Apr 23, 2019)

Sugarcubesea said:


> This is my quandary with FL, I love the water and it's literally my happy place. However I have intense arthritis and I know FL will be bad for me and I'm also looking at AZ and Nevada but the fact that I will not be on water and can not have my boat is just a killer for me...ugh...


Disagree, I have severe arthritis and do fine in Florida and had same problems in Arizona with arthritis.


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## bbodb1 (Apr 23, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Based on the Medical Services map in Conan's post last Friday, International Falls, would be a good place.



Frostbite falls?


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## OldGuy (Apr 24, 2019)

Yeah, with Boris and Natasha.


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## chalee94 (Apr 24, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> A man actually moving back to NY from Florida. (How often do you ever hear of that?! Florida to NY instead of visa versa. LOL!)



A friend who works as a doctor at a retirement community in NC says that it's not uncommon for northerners who retire to FL to have issues with the move, but many wind up settling in NC. They call them "half-backs."


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## Quiet Pine (Apr 24, 2019)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I'm also looking at AZ and Nevada but the fact that I will not be on water and can not have my boat is just a killer for me


AZ and waterfront aren't mutually exclusive. I live in Scottsdale Ranch that includes Lake Serena with about 5 miles of coastline. Homes on the lake all have docks. At Christmas, there's a boat parade and residents vote for the best decorations. However, boats are limited to 21' and may be powered only by a conventional battery-operated motor.

Scottsdale Ranch Waterfront Homes
*

*
Scottsdale Ranch is home to over 250 waterfront homes that surround Lake Serena. Scottsdale Ranch, a 1,100 acre residential development, has townhouses, condominiums, single family and patio homes.


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## bbodb1 (Apr 24, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Yeah, with Boris and Natasha.



 WhassaMatterU!


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## Glynda (Apr 24, 2019)

Lydlady said:


> I can so relate to this.  My mother lives with us also.  She will be 90 this year.  I still work full-time but someday when I no longer work full-time, and if she is still with us, I will have to spend some scheduled time away from the house.



Yes, it's important that you do. I feel guilty as she would like to go somewhere every day if I'd take her. I try to alternate, or combine, things I need/want to do with things she needs/wants to do. But there are times I just need out of the house alone or I feel I will go crazy! Having classes at the Senior Center gives me that scheduled out.


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## OldGuy (Apr 25, 2019)

You don't often see old people going anywhere in a drove. 

I google-imaged it, and droves are mostly young(er) people.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dro...ouzhAhUOY6wKHVjbCTsQ_AUIDigB&biw=1366&bih=625

We also don't flee . . . we shuffle, mostly.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 25, 2019)

So just back on the real estate guy that came to our home on Saturday, he never sent us the appraisal as I suspected he wouldn't. So he is out! Just as I said- I do not like real estate people. Even the one in NH referred by the same company never called me back. Goodbye.

Previous to him coming to our home, he had sent me a link to his website with a supposed "account" set up. There is a tool on there where you can put in your address and it will give you an estimate of market value, so I decided to use it.

Our home came up at $276,000-$286,000. (again, a lot of info. about our home is not recorded).

Then, per my brother's advice I went on Zillow and then deducted 10%. Zillow had it at $322,000. Taking 10% off would be $290,000.

The town assessor has it at $266,000.

Another tool I used from another real estate guy that sends me emails said $229,000 - $358,000. LOL!

Again, not all improvements over the 31 years are recorded.

So, we are thinking if everything is the same next year we would possibly list it ourselves for $279,000.  Or maybe we will hire a professional appraiser. Really, with the internet today and a real estate person not even having to do an estimate for a sale price, why do we need one? We have to pay then 5 or 6% for what? I will keep reading my "How to Sell Your Home Yourself" book. I will put the house on Craigslist, Trulia, Zillow, Redfin. Have a nice big professional sign made up. And get an atty. Maybe pay for an inspection, or just wait and have the buyers pay for one and see what happens.

Heck- at such a low price for our home, as it is we will be looking for a tent to live in. Having to pay closing costs and then a commission and the attorney fees and any "fixes" an inspection might demand on top of that? What will be left? Then moving costs? SMH.....

What a shame. The house is so much nicer than it's market value and I am not just saying that because it is my house.  Heck- the land alone should be worth $100,000. But- that is reality. That is the way it is here.

We might have to move to a state like Alabama! Holy cow!


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## geist1223 (Apr 25, 2019)

My experience with Zillow is that they drastically under value homes. When we sold our last House we sold it for way more than Zillow said it was worth. Our real estate agent recommended filing an action against Zillow. My computer son has met with both firms. He feels REDFIN is more accurate.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 25, 2019)

geist1223 said:


> My experience with Zillow is that they drastically under value homes. When we sold our last House we sold it for way more than Zillow said it was worth. Our real estate agent recommended filing an action against Zillow. My computer son has met with both firms. He feels REDFIN is more accurate.




I just tried Redfin and it said an estimate is not available for my home.


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## Passepartout (Apr 25, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> We might have to move to a state like Alabama! Holy cow!


You could find a nice place in Idaho for that kind of money- not in a city or resort area, but, say within an hour or so, surrounded with mountains, water nearby. Not that there is anything wrong with Alabama, but. . . .


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## WinniWoman (Apr 25, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> You could find a nice place in Idaho for that kind of money- not in a city or resort area, but, say within an hour or so, surrounded with mountains, water nearby. Not that there is anything wrong with Alabama, but. . . .




Really? Well then- that is good news!

I get a bit depressed when I think about this whole scenario. As I have mentioned in the past, Idaho is a state we would definitely consider moving to. Phew! There is hope!

Alabama I am sure is nice, but then- humidity and tornadoes......no.


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## OldGuy (Apr 25, 2019)

Funny, my feeling is that Zillow drastically overvalues homes.

The truth is that they are only as accurate as the laws/policies in your state/area.  For instance, Florida is a public information state, and every real property sale is public information, so Zillow uses the actual sale prices.  In states that are not public information states, Zillow looks at listing prices, not sale prices.

When I apply it to our houses, I figure they are worth what the house next door sells for, if it's like our house.

I look at Zillow almost every day, and in Florida it's right on the button, except if a property has been purchased as a foreclosure or tax deed, or something outside mainstream real estate.  Also in Florida, you can go to the County Assessor's sites, click on a map, click on a parcel, and get all the actual true figures.

Having said all that, I just looked at Zillow, which I have in my Favorites Bar, and our two houses are valued just the opposite of what I said.


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## bogey21 (Apr 26, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> Why do we need one? We have to pay then 5 or 6% for what?



I can go both ways on this.  When I sold our house after I retired I did it myself.  When I sold my Son's house I used a RE Agent.  The difference was demand.  Our house was newer and in a growing area where prices were going up.  My Son's house was 40 years old, in a declining neighborhood, not occupied and with little curb appeal.  In the latter case I went with the RE Agent.  I compared 4 or 5 months of expenses (mortgage payment, utilities, etc.) to the RE Agent's commission.  With our house I figured there would be people bidding against each other for it.  In the case of my Son's house I was worried no one would even want to look at it.  The RE Agent convinced me to list it for about $10,000 more than I thought it was worth.  He ginned up 25 lookers and one bought paying the asking price.  I don't think I could have done this myself and consider his commission money well spent...

George


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## VacationForever (Apr 26, 2019)

@mpumilia If you don't use an agent to list, are you willing to pay for buyers' agent to widen the market?  I agree in this age of internet, almost all buyers look for listing information on their own.  However, if there is no commission for buyers' agent, then agents will not promote your home and also steer buyers away from your home.  

Personally I am ambivalent as to whether one should use an agent.  I have always used an agent because it is the easier route but I absolutely believe one can sell their own home and save a pretty buck.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 26, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> @mpumilia If you don't use an agent to list, are you willing to pay for buyers' agent to widen the market?  I agree in this age of internet, almost all buyers look for listing information on their own.  However, if there is no commission for buyers' agent, then agents will not promote your home and also steer buyers away from your home.
> 
> Personally I am ambivalent as to whether one should use an agent.  I have always used an agent because it is the easier route but I absolutely believe one can sell their own home and save a pretty buck.




I suppose so. Good point you make. At this point we might try anything. We lose before we even start no matter what.

Meanwhile, I had shut my cell phone off at 4:30 pm yesterday. Wouldn't you know the real estate agent called and left a message if he could call me at 10 am today.

So I called back at 9am (waited 'till then since I figured it was business hours.) I got his voice mail and left a message that 10am would be fine. Have not heard from him.


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## rapmarks (Apr 26, 2019)

A neighbor who recently sold said that only two showed up to look at his house through multiple listing through other agents.  Apparently agents in this area don’t want to share the commission with another agency.


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## bogey21 (Apr 26, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> @mpumilia If you don't use an agent to list, are you willing to pay for buyers' agent to widen the market?



In the sale of my Son's house it was the Buyer's Agent who kept the deal alive and finally to fruition.  Clearly the 3% commission was important to him...

George


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## Sugarcubesea (Apr 26, 2019)

Quiet Pine said:


> AZ and waterfront aren't mutually exclusive. I live in Scottsdale Ranch that includes Lake Serena with about 5 miles of coastline. Homes on the lake all have docks. At Christmas, there's a boat parade and residents vote for the best decorations. However, boats are limited to 21' and may be powered only by a conventional battery-operated motor.
> 
> Scottsdale Ranch Waterfront Homes
> *
> ...




Wow, Thank you, I had no idea that this place existed.


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## Quiet Pine (Apr 26, 2019)

Sugarcubesea said:


> I had no idea that this place existed.


I doubt there's anything here under $1 mil with a dock, but other homes are far less (like mine! 3-minute drive to lake). Any resident can borrow kayaks & paddleboats, 
Here's a link showing waterfront homes in Maricopa and Pinal counties. http://phoenixwaterfronttalk.com/waterfront-homes-by-city

.


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## Sugarcubesea (Apr 26, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> So just back on the real estate guy that came to our home on Saturday, he never sent us the appraisal as I suspected he wouldn't. So he is out! Just as I said- I do not like real estate people. Even the one in NH referred by the same company never called me back. Goodbye.
> 
> Previous to him coming to our home, he had sent me a link to his website with a supposed "account" set up. There is a tool on there where you can put in your address and it will give you an estimate of market value, so I decided to use it.
> 
> ...



That realtor does not want to sell your house and I would agree, I would just sell it yourself


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## clifffaith (Apr 26, 2019)

geist1223 said:


> My experience with Zillow is that they drastically under value homes. When we sold our last House we sold it for way more than Zillow said it was worth. Our real estate agent recommended filing an action against Zillow. My computer son has met with both firms. He feels REDFIN is more accurate.



It must depend on the area, or the market in general. We watched Zillow as friends had their home listed and kept quoting Zillow at us. Way too high. Ultimately decided to stay put because they couldn't get an offer for the inflated Zillow number, which was good because their friend who had moved down to that area three years previously turned around and came back to this area, and that was the main reason they were moving. What they didn't do, no matter how many times we told them they needed to, is go into any Open House they could find in our area to find out how they stacked up. Familiarizing yourself with what is selling and for how much is invaluable. On the down side, the last 4 houses we bought, all within a 10-12 minute drive from each other, were because we were regularly going to Open Houses and/or reading the weekend real estate section to see what was available.

On the other hand, the house next to us sold about 18 months ago, and Zillow was pretty much right on with the estimate. The friends in the above scenario were trying to sell 6-7 years ago. I think the difference in Zillow accuracy had to do with a stable market vs one recovering from the recession.


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## rapmarks (Apr 26, 2019)

I am afraid my vision of Idaho is forever tainted after reading Educated.


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## donnaval (Apr 26, 2019)

Zillow is pretty useless in our area.  As an actual example - we own rental property.  We have two identical homes which we built 3 years ago, next door to each other.  Zillow consistently values the house on the left $30,000 to $50,000 higher than the house on the right (the values change frequently).  The only difference in the two homes is the color of the exterior.  Also on the same street we own another older home that has more square footage, but Zillow values it at less than half the value of the newer homes even though that home is fully renovated and would sell in a heartbeat for almost as much as the smaller newer homes.  It is spot-on accurate for rental values for those homes, though.


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## isisdave (Apr 27, 2019)

In our area, Zillow seems to be pretty accurate when there are lots of recent comps. When there are not, I think it's high, distracted by sales in the tract of bigger, more upscale homes nearby. What I don't get is how they think they know if a property has a brand new kitchen or whatever, vs one that doesn't.


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## OldGuy (Apr 27, 2019)

What I do like about Zillow is that it unveils the secrecy the real estate industry so-long hid from the consumer, and allows us to become self-educated, accurate or not, and make our own judgments.

With one click in any area you can see "For Sale", "Potential Listings", "For Rent", and "Sold".  In our little neck 'o the swamp, that is so many that it limits it to 500.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 27, 2019)

rapmarks said:


> I am afraid my vision of Idaho is forever tainted after reading Educated.




What is "Educated"?


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 27, 2019)

mpumilia said:


> What is "Educated"?


Hi Mary Ann,

Review of the memoir "Educated".

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/tara-westover-educated-a-memoir/550919/


Richard


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## clifffaith (Apr 27, 2019)

isisdave said:


> In our area, Zillow seems to be pretty accurate when there are lots of recent comps. When there are not, I think it's high, distracted by sales in the tract of bigger, more upscale homes nearby. What I don't get is how they think they know if a property has a brand new kitchen or whatever, vs one that doesn't.



Our home showed as having 1 full bath. I was able to go in as the owner of the property to change it to add a second 1 3/4 bath, and the price changed. Don’t recall if there is the ability to add a remodeled kitchen.


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## Passepartout (Apr 27, 2019)

rapmarks said:


> I am afraid my vision of Idaho is forever tainted after reading Educated.


It was too sensationalized and accounts the life of very marginalized and fundamentalist people who, shall we say, danced to the beat of a different drummer.

I can understand how once read, a person could forever taint the locale and mindset of some of the inhabitants. 

Jim


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## rapmarks (Apr 27, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> It was too sensationalized and accounts the life of very marginalized and fundamentalist people who, shall we say, danced to the beat of a different drummer.
> 
> I can understand how once read, a person could forever taint the locale and mindset of some of the inhabitants.
> 
> Jim


Yes I realize that, but they sure have a laissez faire attitude about what constitutes home schooling.


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## Passepartout (Apr 27, 2019)

rapmarks said:


> Yes I realize that, but they sure have a laissez faire attitude about what constitutes home schooling.


Agreed. And 90% don't know the meaning of laissez faire. So to live here successfully, bring your own education and reliable source of income. Both are in short supply.


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 27, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> Agreed. And 90% don't know the meaning of laissez faire. So to live here successfully, bring your own education and reliable source of income. Both are in short supply.


Nor Passepartout (teasing)

Richard


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