# Comments suggestions on itinerary



## Teddie2

I started a new post because I am closer to a final itinerary which I listed below
I would love any suggestions --we are doing it all by train as one ways on the airlines were too expensive as I found and once we buy the eurail pass (I think) some legs will be cheaper-also except for Tuscany we will most likely not be driving.  Its still very costly (about 1200 for two plus with all the trains and that does not include "reservation fees" ) 
BTW I was trying to get to Venice from Switzerland early in the AM as we only have two days there that is why the stop in Milan..the place we are planning to stay at in Venice is expensive so we did not want to arrive late and lose a day there and pay for an overnight so we will see Milan in and afternoon as we were not all that interested in staying there and then get an early train to venice


5/17 leave in NY in evening for London
5/18 arrive London AM --visit family
5/19 London visit family
5/20 London
5/21 London
5/22 London
5/23London
524 Eurostar to Paris 
5/25 Paris
2/26 Paris
5/27 Paris (French Open)
5/28 Paris (French Open)
5/29 Paris to Lucerne
5/30 Lucerne 
5/31 Lucerne
6/1 Lucerne to Milan
6/2 Milan to Venice
6/3 Venice
6/4 Venice to Tuscany
6/5 Tuscany
6/6 Tuscany
6/7 Tuscany
6/8 Tuscany
6/9 Tuscany (Florence to Paris on the overnight train) 10Pm to 10AM
6/10 Paris To London
6/10 Travel to the airport and stay at Marriott in airport
6/11  Fly home


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## Conan

Personally, I would give Paris one more day and then fly from there either to Milan or directly to Venice, skipping Switzerland and possibly skipping Milan, and giving the time saved to Venice.


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## radmoo

Agreed, I'd skip Lucerne as well.  You might want to check into low cost inter-Europe airlines that are far less $$ than major airlines.  This might save you quite a bit of money.


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## hibbeln

When looking for LCC (Low Cost Carriers) try these websites for Europe...

www.skyscanner.net
www.dohop.com

As well as your usual websites (Kayak, Orbitz....)
I remember when we took a short (cheap!) flight between Naples and Palermo, we flew on an airline called AlpiEagles which I had NEVER of before.  But it was cheaper than taking the train and instead of a long, overnight train/ferry ride, it took us under an hour.  Great!


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## Teddie2

ah thanks for the suggestions...
we really want to see the alps so that is why lucerne --locked in to paris days --deposit on a place which is booked before and after
and its right where we want to be... as for Venice... would love to spend more time there but its really a treat as it is fairly pricy

Thanks for the air sites!  I have been looking for one way tickets that don't cost a fortune..Part of the reason for train vrs plane is wanting to see the countryside as well as the fact that we do not plan to drive very much.. only in Tuscany 

I guess so much depends upon what one wants to see... I will cost out plane vrs train... in some cases it does not pay to fly if you are only someplace for a few days and want to be in the city... then still need to get from the airport to the city... 

I will check though if I can find some cheap flights...

Hoping for the times we are in each place for some must sees


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## mecllap

Not sure why you want to spend so much time in Tuscany.  I'd say more time in Switzerland and Germany might be more interesting (and spectacular).  (If I were to get to go back to Europe, I would spend more time in those two countries -- they are absolutely beautiful and amazing).  The trip up Mt. Pilatus from Lucerne is wonderful -- if you have good weather.  My "one-time only" tour included one evening and one day in Venice, and that was enough for me (but I was seeing lots of other terrific architecture and art on the trip).  My blog is not very well written as I look back at it (and I was remiss in including very few photos), but you might enjoy looking at other blogs on the host site about your planned destinations. My few comments about Venice and Lucerne are early on in the blog (they're on the "50" page section when I visit it):  http://www.travelblog.org/Bloggers/mecllap/page-6.html

Pack as light as you can -- take an empty small duffle for souvie's and books, and have a great time (take extra camera cards and batteries).


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## Teddie2

SO funny ..another poster said skip Switzerland altogether... I guess different strokes... If you have ever seen pics of Tuscany it is fabulous I I recently asked a NYTimes photographer who has been all over the world what is favorite place is and he said Tuscany!
 we are more country people than city people. Since this is our first trip to Europe and we have no idea if we will have the health and money to do it again we are doing the major cities London and Paris..also want to see the french open and visit family... but if we had the time we would love to see the countryside of both England and France
I get tired of the museums and as fabulous as all of them are my H and I will be able to do only so much .. That is also why we are looking forward to the train trips to each place and see that as part of the vacation and also a time to slow down a bit. all but one of our train trips are about 2-3hrs so never very long
we like taking pics and love architecture--rides on the lakes, trip to top of mountain.. yes this is what we will be happiest with.
The time in Tuscany will be some chill time driving around the beautiful countryside eating some amazing food and sampling the wine in Chianti so not too much time in Tuscany several cities to see there.. Sienia,San Gimigano, Florence (I know I am spelling these badly   I will certainly check out your blog thank you for sharing!


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## Margariet

All the locations mentioned are wonderful in their own right but I would never advice someone to skip Tuscany! I get never tired of the lovely old towns and wonderful countryside in between. It is so wonderful to drive around and truly enjoy the countryside. Enjoy!


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## beejaybeeohio

*Open Jaw*

I don't know if this was mentioned on your other thread, but if you haven't booked your overseas flights, why not fly home from Rome instead of returning all the way to London at a greater expense?  

EG, our upcoming European trip we fly into Rome, take a Med cruise that ends in Venice, and fly home from Brussels.

We just booked on EasyJet from Venice to Paris for 36 euro pp. (As others have mentioned, LCC are expedient and far more economical than the train, although there are bag fees and weight is limited to 44 lbs.) From there we head to Chateau du Maulmont via an automatic minivan rental, returning it back at CDG and taking the Thalys train to Brussels  Gone 25 nights in all.


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## Laurie

Teddie2 said:


> SO funny ..another poster said skip Switzerland altogether... I guess different strokes... If you have ever seen pics of Tuscany it is fabulous I I recently asked a NYTimes photographer who has been all over the world what is favorite place is and he said Tuscany!
> we are more country people than city people. Since this is our first trip to Europe and we have no idea if we will have the health and money to do it again we are doing the major cities London and Paris..also want to see the french open and visit family... but if we had the time we would love to see the countryside of both England and France
> I get tired of the museums and as fabulous as all of them are my H and I will be able to do only so much .. That is also why we are looking forward to the train trips to each place and see that as part of the vacation and also a time to slow down a bit. all but one of our train trips are about 2-3hrs so never very long
> *we like taking pics and love architecture--rides on the lakes, trip to top of mountain.. yes this is what we will be happiest with*.
> The time in Tuscany will be some chill time driving around the beautiful countryside eating some amazing food and sampling the wine in Chianti so not too much time in Tuscany several cities to see there.. Sienia,San Gimigano, Florence (I know I am spelling these badly   I will certainly check out your blog thank you for sharing!


I'm like you, happier in the country than the city, though I love cities too, and absolutely happiest doing exactly what's bolded above, so in that vein:

I'd keep Switzerland on the itinerary, and spend a couple of days/nights in Murren - the car-free town on the edge of a cliff - one of my favorite places in the universe, so far (as someone mentioned Jungfrau region above).

I'd keep Tuscany.

I'd spend an extra night in Venice - it's nothing like an ordinary city. Spend a whole day on-island and another cruising and stopping at the outlying islands - Murano, Burano, Torcello.

In exchange, I'd lose a couple days/nights of London, personally, and one of Paris. Not that there's not lots more to see/do there, but if you max out on cities in a few days seeing museums etc, you won't enjoy them as much. I'd skip Milan except to change trains.

For Tuscany, you might base yourselves in Siena rather than Florence, or in a b&b on the outskirts of a town, mostly drive but take trains into the bigger cities/towns. We stayed at a lovely b&b outside San Gimignano years ago in a drop-dead gorgeous spot, I'd be happy to look it up if you'd like.

Edited to add: we took one of Switzerland's scenic trains between Murren and Paris, using the high-speed for the second part into Paris - not too many hours altogether, but most enjoyable, and the first part was covered by the Swiss Pass. The Swiss Pass also got us up and down the mountain to Murren and back, and side trips. Switzerland was the one place we started with a car and went to train travel for non-city travel, and the train was 10x better than car IMO.


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## hibbeln

Murren!  Thank you, Laurie, that's where I was talking about in the other thread!

Laurie does have a point, that a bit less time in Paris and London (which will likely be quite crowded and which are really ALL about museums!) might free up more "Country Mouse" time for you!   

The suggestion to PACK light is the best suggestion you will get here.  Limit yourself to one small wheeled bag each.  Not a big bag, a SMALL bag!  Since you'll be using trains and busses, you NEED to each be able to lift it up and onto a train or bus.  On our last trip to Italy, I saw that the most miserable looking people were always those that were wrestling too much luggage in a train station.


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## Pat H

My favorite town in Tuscany was Lucca. Try not to miss that. If you were planning to visit Pisa, don't. Waste of time in my opinion.


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## Teddie2

Just did a long post and deleted it!!! yuck
Ok well first thanks so much for all the info. We will look into Murren...it sounds heavenly... will it be cold that far up end of May?  We are trying to pack light --hear you loud and clear hebben -- so trying not to go where it will be too cold and need jackets... 
Because we really want to go to the French open we are locked into our time in London and Paris... really two days visiting family in London in the country --then 4 days to take a trip on the Seine, a day for a few museums --we will be meeting up with a friend one day for lunch --we could always get out of the city for a day if we get bored and go to Stonehenge although not sure h  ow excited I am to see a bunch of boulders  there are castles to see I am sure there is enough to fill 4 days... then we travel to paris and that day will be partly a travel and settle in day then two other full days and two days at the open.. it gives us some time to relax in both places and take in the city --and since we are locked in to the dates ...
I will check what the trains are like from Paris to Murren --I did not much care where we stayed in Switzerland as long as I got a good dose of the Alps  Trying to get from there to Venice was a challenge nothing went direct so we decided instead of getting in to Venice late and spending 250 for the place we are staying at (our one big splurge --apt with a balcony right on the canal -friends stayed and said it was wonderful)--we decided to stop overnight in Milan right by the train station and leave out early the next AM for a full day in Venice --the hotel we found near the train station in Milan is very nice and very inexpensive.. thanks to the frugal traveler 
I am trying for a timeshare in the San Gimigano/ Chianti area and want to travel around the area, Lucca yes!  San Gimigano, Florence, Chaniti and Sienna for sure.. my H wants to just see the leaning tower so we may just roll into Pisa see it and roll out 
As for the LCC --we did check them as all suggested but I was getting fares for 350 or more for one way Florence to London--I guess it depends on where you are going in and out of, time of year and day you go.. I will check easy jet and see if they have anything .39 euros wow I am jealous when are you going? we start our trip May 18 and return home June 11 so maybe the time of year its more expensive---
Alll in all a bucket list trip and we are very excited but it s a-- lot of work
thanks again all adieu, arrivederci


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## mecllap

Margariet said:


> All the locations mentioned are wonderful in their own right but I would never advice someone to skip Tuscany! I get never tired of the lovely old towns and wonderful countryside in between. It is so wonderful to drive around and truly enjoy the countryside. Enjoy!



Gosh, I wasn't suggesting skipping Tuscany since Teddie wants to go there -- just maybe a day or two less.  I am baffled by the posters who suggest skipping Switzerland -- it is spectacular (and I was surprised how lovely and interesting Germany is (I went there for Bavaria and Neuschwanstein castle), and would love to spend more time in that part of Europe (but that's just me; I understand that other people prefer France and Italy).  

Teddie:  I think anytime of the year, you will need a jacket for the Alps (and possibly also in England).  Lucked out on my September trip with wonderful weather, but still needed a jacket occasionally.


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## Margariet

mecllap said:


> Gosh, I wasn't suggesting skipping Tuscany since Teddie wants to go there -- just maybe a day or two less.  I am baffled by the posters who suggest skipping Switzerland -- it is spectacular (and I was surprised how lovely and interesting Germany is (I went there for Bavaria and Neuschwanstein castle), and would love to spend more time in that part of Europe (but that's just me; I understand that other people prefer France and Italy).
> 
> Teddie:  I think anytime of the year, you will need a jacket for the Alps (and possibly also in England).  Lucked out on my September trip with wonderful weather, but still needed a jacket occasionally.



Being an European who travels all over Europe: I totally agree. We've been to Switzerland so often! But I've noticed that so many Americans just go crazy about Italy, France and Germany. Maybe it's because there are so many lovely old, historic towns, great culture and good food in these countries. Nature is also spectacular in the USA. Another problem is the very high Swiss Franc - now a bit lower than last week but Switzerland is still an extremely expensive place to travel to for Americans nowadays. I can highly recommend a place like Rothenburg in Germany which is like a lovely little place in the Middle Ages with all comfort of today.


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## Carolinian

Any particular reason to route your return through Paris and London, which you would already have seen?  If not, look into an open jaws ticket, flying into London and out of somewhere else - Rome, Venice, Milan, Zurich, Prague.  These are usually priced at half the RT fare for one city pair plus half the round trip fare for the second city pair.  This will also help you avoid the horrendous ''save the planet'' APD tax on departures from London, which might add ~$100 to the cost of a TATL ticket.  France has a significantly smaller air ticket tax to fund third world social programs, and Italy and Switzerland do not have these nuisance taxes at all, just normal airport taxes.

Also, although Luzern / Lucerne is a beautiful city, two days may be a bit much there.  Instead you might want to stop off between Paris and Luzern in Basel, also a nice city, or stop between Luzern and Milan  in Lugano, also a nice city with 3 castles.


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## Pompey Family

mecllap said:


> I think anytime of the year, you will need a jacket for the Alps (and possibly also in England).  Lucked out on my September trip with wonderful weather, but still needed a jacket occasionally.



I'd suggest a jacket in England in May, you can never tell.  May this year was baking, other years it can be miserable and wet.  The last few days here we've had the remnants of Irene and it has been very wet and windy and there's definitely a chill in the evening.


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## x3 skier

Another LCC site I like is www.whichbudget.com. 

A thing to remember is the LCC's tend to use some of the more remote airports. Factor in the transit time and cost to town before you opt for the plane over the train. One thing I do is use the night trains, for example between Lisbon and Madrid and get both a "room" and transport for one price. 

For all things train, check www.seat61.com

Cheers


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## Teddie2

"Any particular reason to route your return through Paris and London"

Yes we already have a round trip to London...maybe next time

"A thing to remember is the LCC's tend to use some of the more remote airports"
Yes we found that out already and so are doing the train...overnight from Florence to Paris if it is running in May next year.. the Rail Europe staff say that they never know and the schedule changes in Dec

"I can highly recommend a place like Rothenburg in Germany which is like a lovely little place in the Middle Ages with all comfort of today." 
Sounds lovely -- we willl make a note for the next trip; which we hope to do someday Germany, austria, Prague

"I'd suggest a jacket in England in May, you can never tell."  
Is a light jacket with a sweater layer enough... we will wear them on the plane from NY --we really don't want much bulk in our suitcases as we are trying to travel light

Thanks again all for everything!!


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## radmoo

Don't know how "wedded" you are to your choice of hotel in Venice.  We stayed in a lovely place, Ca'Angeli and I don't think it was $250/nt.  It included FABULOUS breakfast, was extremely well located and many rooms face directly on the canal.  We stayed 2 nights on first floor and 3rd night in pH.  PH room was SMALL but we had an entire roof deck to ourselves, overlooking the canal.  We lounged in the lounge chairs and listened to all the gondoliers serenading as they rowed by.  One of the all time highlights of our travels.


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## Carolinian

As to staying two full days in Lucerne / Luzern, that is probably a bit much time for that city, so you may want to take a day trip by train to Zurich, which is 45-55 minutes each way.  Alternatively, Basel and Lugano make good stops on the train route on either side of Luzern.  If you want to stop at either during the day, they both have left luggage offices.

On LCC's, EasyJet is the one most likely to operate from major airports.  They are increasingly using Gatwick for London, which beats Heathrow hands down.  Heathrow has been rated the worst airport in Europe in a survey of travel writers.  For Paris, EasyJet often uses the old international airport for the city, which is closer to the city than is Charles de Gaulle, and has good transportation connections.  RyanAir and WizzAir, on the other hand, use a remote airport far to the north of Paris with less than stellar ground connections into the city.

Using open jaw tickets for your TATL (trans-Atlantic) travel is the most cost effective most of the time when you are going to more than one place in Europe.  That is especially true if one of those places charges large taxes for departure.  The UK is the worst for that with its ''save the planet'' APD tax, now that the Netherlands has repealed a similar tax.  Next is Germany which recently added a significant extra air ticket tax to help pay for the Greek bailout.  France follows with a smaller tax used for social programs in the third world.  The trick is to fly to those countries first, and then have your return trip start in another country that does not have one of those taxes, since the tax is charged only on departure.  An open jaw also saves money in that you only have to do a one way to the second place you are seeing, rather than a round trip back to where you started, as well as the time you spend on that return trip that is no longer needed.

Rothenburg on the Tauber does indeed have a great set of preserved medieval buildings, but has just a bit too touristy and commercialized.  My favorite medieval cities are Cesky Krumlov in the Czech Republic, Dubrovnik in Croatia, Krakow in Poland, Colmar in France, Lviv in Ukraine, and Sigishorara in Romania.



Teddie2 said:


> "Any particular reason to route your return through Paris and London"
> 
> Yes we already have a round trip to London...maybe next time
> 
> "A thing to remember is the LCC's tend to use some of the more remote airports"
> Yes we found that out already and so are doing the train...overnight from Florence to Paris if it is running in May next year.. the Rail Europe staff say that they never know and the schedule changes in Dec
> 
> "I can highly recommend a place like Rothenburg in Germany which is like a lovely little place in the Middle Ages with all comfort of today."
> Sounds lovely -- we willl make a note for the next trip; which we hope to do someday Germany, austria, Prague
> 
> "I'd suggest a jacket in England in May, you can never tell."
> Is a light jacket with a sweater layer enough... we will wear them on the plane from NY --we really don't want much bulk in our suitcases as we are trying to travel light
> 
> Thanks again all for everything!!


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## Teddie2

radmoo said:


> Don't know how "wedded" you are to your choice of hotel in Venice.  We stayed in a lovely place, Ca'Angeli and I don't think it was $250/nt.  It included FABULOUS breakfast, was extremely well located and many rooms face directly on the canal.  We stayed 2 nights on first floor and 3rd night in pH.  PH room was SMALL but we had an entire roof deck to ourselves, overlooking the canal.  We lounged in the lounge chairs and listened to all the gondoliers serenading as they rowed by.  One of the all time highlights of our travels.



Well we sort of are. It's a beautiful apartment with a balcony right on the CanaL. My co woRker went and it's pretty amazing I will check out your suggestion though


thanks


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## hibbeln

This is info on Gimmelwald
http://www.gimmelwald.ch/en/accommodation/stay.htm

And here are Murren accomodations
http://www.mymuerren.ch/en.cfm/unterkunft/

And here is how to travel between the two villages if you have no fear of heights!   :hysterical: 
http://www.gimmelwald.ch/en/activities/climbing.htm


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## Teddie2

"As to staying two full days in Lucerne / Luzern, that is probably a bit much time for that city, so you may want to take a day trip by train to Zurich, which is 45-55 minutes each way. Alternatively, Basel and Lugano make good stops on the train route on either side of Luzern. If you want to stop at either during the day, they both have left luggage offices."


Zurich is a good option.Seems there are a number of day trips one can do from Lucerne.. mt rigi looks interesting.. we are only there for 2 1/ days when you count the first day part travel to day so I don;t think we will really be there too long to get bored.. I do want to see as much of the beautiful mountains as I can so one of the trains through perhaps the Bern....something express.. not as long as the Glacier but still goes through some beautiful areas so  I read... thanks again all for the info


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## Teddie2

hibbeln said:


> This is info on Gimmelwald
> http://www.gimmelwald.ch/en/accommodation/stay.htm
> 
> And here are Murren accomodations
> http://www.mymuerren.ch/en.cfm/unterkunft/
> 
> And here is how to travel between the two villages if you have no fear of heights!   :hysterical:
> http://www.gimmelwald.ch/en/activities/climbing.htm



Thanks deb we are still debating since there we really only have two and half days since our first day is traveling from paris to switzerland so we will get in around lunch time have just enough time to get lunch, check in and get the lay of the land... then the next two days don't want to do too much traveling..Murren looks wonderful but looks like a lot of time and transfers.... we are still debating though so will look at all the info and then time it all out
thanks


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## hibbeln

Sometimes it's good to have ideas in your back pocket to pull out if your thoughts change once you get someplace.  We've had trips where we DIDN'T do everything we'd planned, just because doing something else (or in some cases doing nothing) was so incredibly pleasant.  Or sometimes it's the weather than changes our plans.
Then again, we've had days when it's 2 in the afternoon and we're looking for MORE to do.....then we're glad to have those "Maybe this...." ideas (and maps and info) with us.


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## Laurie

hibbeln said:


> This is info on Gimmelwald
> http://www.gimmelwald.ch/en/accommodation/stay.htm
> 
> And here are Murren accomodations
> http://www.mymuerren.ch/en.cfm/unterkunft/
> 
> And here is how to travel between the two villages if you have no fear of heights!   :hysterical:
> http://www.gimmelwald.ch/en/activities/climbing.htm


The first photo didn't look so bad - the second one - yikes!   

We did walk down to Gimmelwald from Murren somehow, and took the cable car back up... there used to be a timeshare in Murren, I'm really hoping it opens back up someday!


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## Pompey Family

hibbeln said:


> Sometimes it's good to have ideas in your back pocket to pull out if your thoughts change once you get someplace.  We've had trips where we DIDN'T do everything we'd planned, just because doing something else (or in some cases doing nothing) was so incredibly pleasant.



My sentiments entirely.  I often think we all put too much emphasis on trying to cram in too many 'must see' sights when all too often the journey, crowds and cost dampen the experience.  Holidays for me are meant for relaxing and getting away from the daily grind.  If I'm going somewhere for a foreign experience then I prefer to immerse myself in daily life.  I find this is often more enjoyable than rushing around to see as many sights.  I'd much rather spend two hours enjoying a leisurely lunch and people watch in a Parisian restaurant than spend the same two hours standing in a queue to stand at the top of the Eiffel Tower, especially if you can see it anyway from your table.


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## x3 skier

Pompey Family said:


> I'd much rather spend two hours enjoying a leisurely lunch and people watch in a Parisian restaurant than spend the same two hours standing in a queue to stand at the top of the Eiffel Tower, especially if you can see it anyway from your table.



I agree 100%.

I remember our first trip to Paris. We were sitting in a sidewalk cafe having lunch when two middle aged ladies tired to ask in halting French about the menu. I replied "Beats the devil out of me, I don't speak French". After much laughter, we joined forces and spent a fun afternoon wandering around Paris together. Nothing planned but a great experience anyway.

I intend to take my Brother for his first visit to Paris next month and just cruise around on the Batobus seeing what he wants to see or just having a glass of wine (or more) along the Seine.

Cheers


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## x3 skier

Teddie2 said:


> I do want to see as much of the beautiful mountains as I can so one of the trains through perhaps the Bern....something express.. not as long as the Glacier but still goes through some beautiful areas so  I read... thanks again all for the info



It is the Bernina Express, a beautiful ride even if it does end in Tirano, several klicks from anywhere. OTOH, you can take the Express Bus to Lugano near Lake Como, which is one of the more beautiful places in Italy. Here's the web site http://www.rhb.ch/index.php?id=33?&L=4 It also covers the Glacier Express.

Cheers


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