# Withdraw Sunset Harbor from HRC Management



## Kal (Nov 16, 2021)

Remember Aspen!  If you were a Sunset Harbor owner, how would you vote to remove Hyatt from management of the resort?  Hyatt cannot take action to prevent it from happening.  It would take 60% positive owner vote to make the removal happen.  What would be your thoughts if you didn't own at Sunset Harbor?

For me, I would vote YES.


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## AJCts411 (Nov 16, 2021)

As an owner I would be in favor of changing the Hyatt management at HSH.  We bought at HSH to use very year, not to trade points.  (For those who do not know, it is reported in this forum that the occupancy level at HSH is very high, very difficult to reserve via points. mostly owned weeks)
My negatives:
1) Owning a deeded lockout, club rules do not allow splitting your week into two reservation separate reservations.  Per the club rules the owner has to reserve one side and deposit the other into the pool, and hope that you can get the week which you deposited back. 
2) The management fees/HRC are high in my opinion.  The front line people at HSH do a good job, no complaints.  But the "Hyatt" hype is expensive. By this I mean who is actually paying for the salaries and printed marketing materials for those who push the brand...updates, benefits of HRC. 
3) No option to opt out of Interval International...we don't use it.
4) Week ownership week transfer fees are excessive last experience was $650.00...for what? This is not for recording the deed at the county, this is to change the name in their system.  I call it punitive.
6) If one purchases a week resale, you are penalized, devalued within HRC and the brand.  Minor issue to me.
5) My perception of Hyatt AKA Marriott is that they are plotting, maneuvering to undermine the deeded week owners in favor of the expensive points systems. One way is ROFR.  

So yes, I would be a yes.


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## JanT (Nov 16, 2021)

Kal,

We were out of the Hyatt system for several years so I'm not sure what happened with Aspen. Can you elaborate or just point me to somewhere I can get a rundown on what you're talking about? Honestly, I wish MVC would rebrand HSH and fold it into MVC. Those weeks at HSH would be some powerful traders for sure.


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## Kal (Nov 16, 2021)

JanT said:


> Kal,
> 
> We were out of the Hyatt system for several years so I'm not sure what happened with Aspen. Can you elaborate or just point me to somewhere I can get a rundown on what you're talking about? Honestly, I wish MVC would rebrand HSH and fold it into MVC. Those weeks at HSH would be some powerful traders for sure.


A new management company is scheduled to be in place in December. Hyatt Grand Aspen will become an independent and will no longer be affiliated with HRC. With Aspen becoming an independent, HPP and HRC members will no longer have access to the HRC deeded weeks via an internal exchange.


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## Kal (Nov 16, 2021)

AJCts411 said:


> As an owner I would be in favor of changing the Hyatt management at HSH.  We bought at HSH to use very year, not to trade points.  (For those who do not know, it is reported in this forum that the occupancy level at HSH is very high, very difficult to reserve via points. mostly owned weeks)...


Not only does HSH have perhaps the highest occupancy level in the HRC, it also has a very high owner occupancy.  This tells me those owners will vote YES.  The HRC folks who do not own at HSH would not have access to HSH thru points.  Unfortunately, they do not have a vote on this issue.


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## echino (Nov 16, 2021)

If I owned at HSH, I would vote to remove Hyatt as a management company. But I don't own there, so I hope it doesn't happen.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 16, 2021)

JanT said:


> Kal,
> 
> We were out of the Hyatt system for several years so I'm not sure what happened with Aspen. Can you elaborate or just point me to somewhere I can get a rundown on what you're talking about? Honestly, I wish MVC would rebrand HSH and fold it into MVC. Those weeks at HSH would be some powerful traders for sure.











						Hyatt Aspen? Still in the Hyatt system?
					

Somewhere stated (not here) that Hyatt is dropping the Aspen property?  Is that true? We won’t be able to use points to book anymore?  Any updates?  Barbaras




					tugbbs.com


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## Kal (Nov 16, 2021)

By the way, this is NOT just an idle question.  HSH is investigating the option.


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## RunCat (Nov 16, 2021)

with the Hyatt defections, Welk could be the dominant player in the merger.  Welk has fewer resorts but may already have more owners.  It will be interesting to see what MVC does.    With Welk being a 75+% points ownership, there may be more Hyatt defections due to dilution and location competition.


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## Kal (Nov 16, 2021)

RunCat said:


> with the Hyatt defections, Welk could be the dominant player in the merger.  Welk has fewer resorts but may already have more owners.  It will be interesting to see what MVC does.    With Welk being a 75+% points ownership, there may be more Hyatt defections due to dilution and location competition.


The fun is yet to begin for Welk.  The question remains, what will it cost to be a member of the Portfolio.  Now it's $13K to play the game.  Can you imagine how a Welk points owner will feel when they are faced with that issue?  Of course they could be limited to trading within their own group of Welk points resorts and no access to the Hyatt HPP resorts without first paying the ransom $$.  Likewise, the HPP members would not have access to the Welk points properties.


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## JanT (Nov 16, 2021)

Kal,

Thank you for the link.  I checked that out.  Interesting that HSH is considering the same option.  We bought 3 resale weeks there this year so that will be interesting if they leave Hyatt.  I haven't heard that at all.  If they do leave Hyatt then that's going to mean we're not going to be able to trade into any other Hyatt resorts in the HRC???  If that's the case, I'm not sure I'm going to be happy about that.



Kal said:


> By the way, this is NOT just an idle question.  HSH is investigating the option.


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## RunCat (Nov 16, 2021)

Kal said:


> The fun is yet to begin for Welk.  The question remains, what will it cost to be a member of the Portfolio.  Now it's $13K to play the game.  Can you imagine how a Welk points owner will feel when they are faced with that issue?  Of course they could be limited to trading within their own group of Welk points resorts and no access to the Hyatt HPP resorts without first paying the ransom $$.  Likewise, the HPP members would not have access to the Welk points properties.



Completely agree.  And honestly I'm not sure how this will work.  The many laws, rules, regulations, by-laws make it difficult to see a true merger. Can the unsold Welk inventory be removed from the Trust and deposited into a new system?


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## Kal (Nov 16, 2021)

JanT said:


> Kal,
> 
> Thank you for the link.  I checked that out.  Interesting that HSH is considering the same option.  We bought 3 resale weeks there this year so that will be interesting if they leave Hyatt.  I haven't heard that at all.  If they do leave Hyatt then that's going to mean we're not going to be able to trade into any other Hyatt resorts in the HRC???  If that's the case, I'm not sure I'm going to be happy about that.


I can see various work arounds for HRC owners to get into HSH managed by another firm.  Never say never.  Besides you have votes to express your opposition.


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## travelhacker (Nov 16, 2021)

I have no desire to stay at sunset harbor, but I’d be sad to see another defection.

I believe the dues are around 1750 per year. $157 per year is devoted to the HRC club and 10% goes to management.

I’m guessing at most you’d save around $200 per year if you left the Hyatt system. After all you’d need to pay another management company and there are probably some things that would be more expensive as a result of not being associated with a group of resorts (like say insurance).

The owners would need to be happy with their deeded week, because otherwise they would need to come up with a system for internal (to the resort) exchanges (it could be simple but something to consider).

If owners ever wanted to trade with other timeshares they would need to pay a membership fee that would be roughly $100 per year.

Does it really seem worth it to leave?

You are gaining at most a couple hundred in lower fees and giving up A LOT of flexibility.

You would also be more beholden to board members driven to cut expenses which could have a negative impact on quality.


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## JanT (Nov 16, 2021)

My question was really if HSH leaves HRC management, then will HSH owners not be able to trade into OTHER HRC resorts.



Kal said:


> I can see various work arounds for HRC owners to get into HSH managed by another firm.  Never say never.  Besides you have votes to express your opposition.


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## travelhacker (Nov 16, 2021)

JanT said:


> My question was really if HSH leaves HRC management, then will HSH owners not be able to trade into OTHER HRC resorts.


If HSH leaves HRC they would lose the ability to trade within the HRC system.

I suppose they could join interval or RCI independently.


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## Kal (Nov 16, 2021)

travelhacker said:


> I have no desire to stay at sunset harbor, but I’d be sad to see another defection.
> 
> I believe the dues are around 1750 per year. $157 per year is devoted to the HRC club and 10% goes to management.
> 
> ...


Comparable MF's for another Key West resort who has selected a management company is about $1100/year.  Take a look at the line items in the HSH MF statement associated directly to Hyatt Management.  The gouge becomes clear.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 16, 2021)

JanT said:


> My question was really if HSH leaves HRC management, then will HSH owners not be able to trade into OTHER HRC resorts.


HSH owners would no longer be able to exchange into other Hyatt resorts through an internal trading system. Perhaps if they were somehow able to associate with II, they could trade through II. If HPP owns inventory at HSH, then HPP owners could trade into HSH. I beleive also that HRC owners could trade in if something was available inside the 6 months mark.


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## Kal (Nov 17, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> HSH owners would no longer be able to exchange into other Hyatt resorts through an internal trading system. Perhaps if they were somehow able to associate with II, they could trade through II. If HPP owns inventory at HSH, then HPP owners could trade into HSH. I beleive also that HRC owners could trade in if something was available inside the 6 months mark.


The statistics show that the majority of HSH owners only want to stay at HSH and internal HRC exchange is not an issue.  If that majority is greater than 60% their vote would control the outcome.  The number of units actually "permanently owned" by the HPP portfolio is a small fraction especially when those weeks are generally undesirable. The "6 months mark" would be a very minor option.  However, there are still other work-arounds for HRC owners to get into a stand alone HSH.  Also, a person could have a single II membership for all HSH units owned.  This of course is unlike Hyatt's requirement that you pay for multiple II memberships when you own multiple HRC units.


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## heathpack (Nov 17, 2021)

Kal said:


> By the way, this is NOT just an idle question.  HSH is investigating the option.



Oh boy.

I never visited the Aspen property, nor have I yet visited the Sunset Harbor property.  I would have liked to have done both.

It will be a shame for the club if this happens but maybe something of a wake up call.  Hyatt is just so painfully greedy, at some point people get fed up.


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## JanT (Nov 17, 2021)

Thank you.  That's what I thought but wanted to verify.  I have to say, as an owner of 3 weeks at HSH I don't think I would support this but it would depend on which management company or other system they might fold into.  I like the ability to trade into other Hyatt resorts and if that disappears, it would be an issue for me. Yes, those HSH weeks are valuable in the sense that there's not a lot of trade availability through Interval (in fact, I'm not sure I've ever seen a HSH week come up in II), but I do like to have flexibility to get into other Hyatt resorts via Hyatt internal exchange.  For example, I just exchanged into Breckenridge Main Street Station during ski season.  If HSH decides to leave the Hyatt system, I might just sell my weeks there.  We love Key West but not necessarily to go to every year forever.



dioxide45 said:


> HSH owners would no longer be able to exchange into other Hyatt resorts through an internal trading system. Perhaps if they were somehow able to associate with II, they could trade through II. If HPP owns inventory at HSH, then HPP owners could trade into HSH. I beleive also that HRC owners could trade in if something was available inside the 6 months mark.


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## travelhacker (Nov 17, 2021)

Kal said:


> Comparable MF's for another Key West resort who has selected a management company is about $1100/year.  Take a look at the line items in the HSH MF statement associated directly to Hyatt Management.  The gouge becomes clear.


I don't know much about comparable properties in Key West to say what is realistic and what isn't. 

For the weeks that I own, at most I think there's only a couple of hundred dollars that could be trimmed by switching to a new management company and the benefit that I receive is far, far greater by virtue of being part of the club that is attached to the Hyatt brand.

In the case of the Hyatt Grand Aspen the new management company trimmed dues by 10%.


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## Kal (Nov 17, 2021)

heathpack said:


> ...Hyatt is just so painfully greedy, at some point people get fed up.


A typical example of Hyatt's greed is the price and timeframe for Hyatt to transfer ownership in resale. The $650 price is pure greed given the fact it's largely a computer database change.  They deposit the $650 immediately, yet wait to make the change after 60 days.


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## travelhacker (Nov 17, 2021)

Kal said:


> A typical example of Hyatt's greed is the price and timeframe for Hyatt to transfer ownership in resale. The $650 price is pure greed given the fact it's largely a computer database change.  They deposit the $650 immediately, yet wait to make the change after 60 days.


That's a great example. It really is ridiculous and hurts resale prices.


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## AJCts411 (Nov 17, 2021)

travelhacker said:


> I don't know much about comparable properties in Key West to say what is realistic and what isn't.
> 
> For the weeks that I own, at most I think there's only a couple of hundred dollars that could be trimmed by switching to a new management company and the benefit that I receive is far, far greater by virtue of being part of the club that is attached to the Hyatt brand.
> 
> In the case of the Hyatt Grand Aspen the new management company trimmed dues by 10%.



For sure the issue will have strong opinions on both sides.  Traders and stayers.

Maintenance fees are very difficult to compare to other resorts in Key West simply because there are so few in the "old town' area of Key West.  The Banyan is only a few blocks away, but mostly one bedrooms, but still their maintenance fees for a two bedroom are far less than HSH.  Maybe an owner could post the amount but I think it was in the $1100 range. (Agree that this is not apples to apples comparison). 
Even at  10% less,  adds up when you own multiple weeks.  And not having to pay II fees multiple times, or being able to opt out of these II type systems adds to this amount.   And changing management, then I would expect to be able to use my owner week lockout without Hyatt gouging, or using their system to their advantage at the cost of mine. 
One thing I am 100 percent convinced on is that Marriott has it's corporate profits front and center, AKA selling points and expanding fees and not mine as an owner.


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## GTLINZ (Nov 17, 2021)

echino said:


> If I owned at HSH, I would vote to remove Hyatt as a management company. But I don't own there, so I hope it doesn't happen.



I agree with ECHINO and would hate to no longer be able to trade in there since I don't own there - but i would vote to get out because if i did own there it would be because i wanted to use my week.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 17, 2021)

AJCts411 said:


> Even at 10% less, adds up when you own multiple weeks. And not having to pay II fees multiple times, or being able to opt out of these II type systems adds to this amount. And changing management, then I would expect to be able to use my owner week lockout without Hyatt gouging, or using their system to their advantage at the cost of mine.
> One thing I am 100 percent convinced on is that Marriott has it's corporate profits front and center, AKA selling points and expanding fees and not mine as an owner.


I wouldn't ever see Hyatt doing an optional II membership. Like pretty much every other system, they would have a corporate account setup where a club fee is mandatory. THis guarantees certain revenue for II, which Marriott Vacations Worldwide also owns. That said, I think the $157/week is rediculous. Would be much better if tiered like Marriott Vacation Club and Vistana.


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## Kal (Nov 17, 2021)

It's interesting to speculate how the owners of "low value" HSH weeks would respond to a vote.  Those low value weeks are purely defined by the Key West climate.  Weeks 27 to 40 owners do represent a large block where they probably don't frequently stay at HSH during those weeks.


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## AJCts411 (Nov 17, 2021)

Kal said:


> It's interesting to speculate how the owners of "low value" HSH weeks would respond to a vote.  Those low value weeks are purely defined by the Key West climate.  Weeks 27 to 40 owners do represent a large block where they probably don't frequently stay at HSH during those weeks.



I can't say about other weeks but 39 and 40, the people we meet year after year, and recognize are owners.  Didn't do a poll, but I have the feeling that most are owners rather than traders/renters.  FYI I think 39 and 40 are great weeks, everything is open, great music everywhere and previous to covid, all the reasons to go to Key West is happening without the huge crowds.


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## Kal (Nov 17, 2021)

AJCts411 said:


> I can't say about other weeks but 39 and 40, the people we meet year after year, and recognize are owners.  Didn't do a poll, but I have the feeling that most are owners rather than traders/renters.  FYI I think 39 and 40 are great weeks, everything is open, great music everywhere and previous to covid, all the reasons to go to Key West is happening without the huge crowds.


As a reference to my comment on "low value weeks", please see the attached image.  This gives a quick look at the resale value of some of those weeks.


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## Tenga (Nov 17, 2021)

Key West  "Hyatt/Marriott" sales dept is specifically telling buyers and showing photo's of 8 Welk resorts at the KW sales office lobby. It will be offered on the Hyatt website next year. San Diego, Branson MO, Breckenridge, Cabo’s, Lake Tahoe, Palm Springs, CA. All for 1020 points at $19.59 per point. Looks like it knows the handwrighting is on the wall with HSH leaving! 

 This in its self should be the wake up call to any Hyatt/Welk current owner holding a deeded week.  IMO the strongest Hyatt owners are the KW Beach House owners by far in the system! They run the board with a iron fist!  When HSH goes, the next vote will be them!
Regards,
Tenga


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## Kal (Nov 17, 2021)

Tenga said:


> ... IMO the strongest Hyatt owners are the KW Beach House owners by far in the system! They run the board with a iron fist!  When HSH goes, the next vote will be them!
> Regards,
> Tenga


The vast majority of Beach House owners are absentees.  They only want the points for use elsewhere so it definitely would not be in their interests to have a stand-alone property.  Many of those owners have never stayed at the Beach House but use the points to stay at HSH.


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## Tenga (Nov 17, 2021)

Thanks Kal, ya made my point   

Sunset goes BH is next and with 1 out of the 3 in Key West gone. What is left will make the bookings all the harder!  With 2 out of 3 gone in Key West good luck with that sales center being the major hub of sales for Hyatt/Marriott. Could that be the reason Stephen P Weisz spent so much for Welk??? Is this now the sale focus at KW sales center focus on Welk not KW??  It sure feels to me like taking some of the heat off the sales people trying to tout come to KW enjoy your new TS here!

 Over the years every Beach House owner I've met has talked about the pride they have in being there own "Boss" and the strength of "there" ownership over Hyatt! It's a Beach House owner first talking point when you ask them about being a BH owner, and I've admired that for many years. 

And to make my case the owners that run the board and use Beach exclusively, they have through the years made the decisions v.s. the absentee's..   The'll get the 60% needed to advance the board decisions...  I have no doubt that if the BH BOD feels its in there interest to leave they will get the votes.. Like I mentioned they rule with a iron fist and over the years Hyatt walks on pin's and needles regarding anything associated with the Beach House.  Of all the clubs its their "club bylaws /agreements" in writing that allow them the easiest break from Hyatt/Marriott. 

What say you all?  Any Beach owner's on here feel free to jump in.  "If Sunset leaves the Hyatt family would you vote to leave or stay"? 
Best,
Tenga


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## Kal (Nov 17, 2021)

The maintenance fees at HSH over time will also impact decisions.  HSH is heading to 30 years old.  Funding major replacements such as roof, elevators, A/C and other rounds of upgrades will be very costly.  Hyatt has their thumb on the reserve $ and wants it done much sooner than is reasonable, all at the owners expense.  Any substantial increase in MF will likely further push the HSH owners to break with Hyatt.


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## Kal (Nov 17, 2021)

Tenga said:


> Thanks Kal, ya made my point
> 
> Sunset goes BH is next and with 1 out of the 3 in Key West gone. What is left will make the bookings all the harder!  With 2 out of 3 gone in Key West good luck with that sales center being the major hub of sales for Hyatt/Marriott. Could that be the reason Stephen P Weisz spent so much for Welk??? Is this now the sale focus at KW sales center focus on Welk not KW??  It sure feels to me like taking some of the heat off the sales people trying to tout come to KW enjoy your new TS here!
> 
> ...


Thinking outside the box.  What-if Sunset and the BH combine themselves with a new management firm.  I can think of all kinds of positive offers the combined group could provide to the owners and Key West visitors.


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## GTLINZ (Nov 17, 2021)

Kal said:


> Thinking outside the box.  What-if Sunset and the BH combine themselves with a new management firm.  I can think of all kinds of positive offers the combined group could provide to the owners and Key West visitors.



My question now runs around HPP inventory. If HSH (and possibly HBH) did leave Hyatt could the individual boards then ensure that HPP gets no more inventory?


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## Kal (Nov 17, 2021)

GTLINZ said:


> My question now runs around HPP inventory. If HSH (and possibly HBH) did leave Hyatt could the individual boards then ensure that HPP gets no more inventory?


The HSH & HBH would be a stand-alone non-Hyatt timeshare property.  The owners are free to do anything they desire with their unit.  IMHO, the concept of "depositing" their unit into HPP would be like a Disney owner depositing their unit into HPP.  The HPP system is not set up to accept non-Hyatt units.


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## GTLINZ (Nov 17, 2021)

Kal said:


> The HSH & HBH would be a stand-alone non-Hyatt timeshare property.  The owners are free to do anything they desire with their unit.  IMHO, the concept of "depositing" their unit into HPP would be like a Disney owner depositing their unit into HPP.  The HPP system is not set up to accept non-Hyatt units.



My question centered around inventory continuing to be bought by HPP. Since they already have some inventory (not sure of the numbers) they might be compelled to keep buying until they can get a controlling interest back. That motivation for them would likely be tied to the current percentage of ownership they already have.


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## RunCat (Nov 17, 2021)

GTLINZ said:


> My question centered around inventory continuing to be bought by HPP.



Welk Resorts already does this to a small degree.  They have been buying excess inventory at a number of resorts and adding it to the Welk System for owners.  I see no reason why HPP could not do the same with HSH  & HBH resales.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 18, 2021)

GTLINZ said:


> My question centered around inventory continuing to be bought by HPP. Since they already have some inventory (not sure of the numbers) they might be compelled to keep buying until they can get a controlling interest back. That motivation for them would likely be tied to the current percentage of ownership they already have.


The boards at HSH could pass some type of resolution to prevent new transfers to corporations, LLCs or trusts. Of course that could hurt resale values overall for the weeks currently owned by owners.


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## RunCat (Nov 18, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> The boards at HSH could pass some type of resolution to prevent new transfers to corporations, LLCs or trusts. Of course that could hurt resale values overall for the weeks currently owned by owners.


Could also affect families with estate planning.


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## Tenga (Nov 18, 2021)

Kal said:


> Thinking outside the box.  What-if Sunset and the BH combine themselves with a new management firm.  I can think of all kinds of positive offers the combined group could provide to the owners and Key West visitors.


Kal, you may be on to something and it's a strong possibility about a combine new management firm!  Do you see any way, some how that MVC is pulling stings behind the curtain to make this happen???

Second, its no big secret that Marriott Vac Club has for years has been wanting to get into the Key West location. They have so far been unsuccessful.   I've forgotten the name of the property they were looking at on the West side of the Key around the Pelican Landing area. It was a former distressed hotel/motel site that was sitting vacant.  

IF and this is a biggie here " if " MVC could get HSH and HBH away from under Hyatt management control and rid of the Hyatt Corporate Umbrella on these two resorts forever, could MVC make an offer to both BOD's that would be too good to pass on??   

Thoughts??
Best
Tenga


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## dioxide45 (Nov 18, 2021)

Tenga said:


> Kal, you may be on to something and it's a strong possibility about a combine new management firm!  Do you see any way, some how that MVC is pulling stings behind the curtain to make this happen???
> 
> Second, its no big secret that Marriott Vac Club has for years has been wanting to get into the Key West location. They have so far been unsuccessful.   I've forgotten the name of the property they were looking at on the West side of the Key around the Pelican Landing area. It was a former distressed hotel/motel site that was sitting vacant.
> 
> ...


I find it doubtful that the boards would want to align with MVC given that MVC is also owned by the same parent company that owns HRC. Very likely that these two properties would go independant and perhaps find a management company to manage the operations and reservation system. Could be something like VRI, but VRI is again owned by the same parent company that owns HRC. That being Marriott Vacations Worldwide.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 18, 2021)

Resort quality will undoubtedly go down if the resorts drop Hyatt. Any time there is a brand name on the door, there are certain standards the resorts have to maintain. When resorts go independant, they often also get cheap. They don't want to do a 5/10 renovation cycle. They would be okay pushing that out to perhaps 8/15 or even longer. They no longer need to worry about keeping a name on the door. I know owners and the board will say now that they want to keep the same quality up, but it rarely happens. They don't want to increase maintenance fees and lower season owners get disgruntled by lower quality for the fees they pay and less flexibility because they can no longer exchange in a network. So you see a loss of lower season owners walking away and additional burden on the high season owners to cover the cost. Add to that the chance that the board doesn't want to increase fees and you will see further deterioration in overall resort quality and maintenance.


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## Tenga (Nov 18, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Resort quality will undoubtedly go down if the resorts drop Hyatt. Any time there is a brand name on the door, there are certain standards the resorts have to maintain. When resorts go independant, they often also get cheap. They don't want to do a 5/10 renovation cycle. They would be okay pushing that out to perhaps 8/15 or even longer. They no longer need to worry about keeping a name on the door. I know owners and the board will say now that they want to keep the same quality up, but it rarely happens. They don't want to increase maintenance fees and lower season owners get disgruntled by lower quality for the fees they pay and less flexibility because they can no longer exchange in a network. So you see a loss of lower season owners walking away and additional burden on the high season owners to cover the cost. Add to that the chance that the board doesn't want to increase fees and you will see further deterioration in overall resort quality and maintenance.


Hey Diox,  I disagree with resort quality statement take a look at independents in the Orlando area just as an example. Same for most other locations, even better example is the Branson area with its independents.

 Quality can still be maintained without the fancy sign hanging off the side of the building. But regarding the  location's in Key West  as "prime site location's "and its high demand for rent's finding it had to fathom KW owner's allowing quality to go down.   MF with still cover renovations as needed. Just no longer paying a 10%+ premium due to a brand name hanging off the side of the building. What owner would not jump at MF staying the same or even heaven forbid decrease in some years verses corporate greed and having to maximize shareholder value.

Best,
Tenga


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## travelhacker (Nov 18, 2021)

Tenga said:


> Hey Diox,  I disagree with resort quality statement take a look at independents in the Orlando area just as an example. Same for most other locations, even better example is the Branson area with its independents.
> 
> Quality can still be maintained without the fancy sign hanging off the side of the building. But regarding the  location's in Key West  as "prime site location's "and its high demand for rent's finding it had to fathom KW owner's allowing quality to go down.   MF with still cover renovations as needed. Just no longer paying a 10%+ premium due to a brand name hanging off the side of the building. What owner would not jump at MF staying the same or even heaven forbid decrease in some years verses corporate greed and having to maximize shareholder value.
> 
> ...


Which independent resorts in Branson and Orlando would you consider high quality?

I genuinely can't think of any.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 18, 2021)

Tenga said:


> Hey Diox,  I disagree with resort quality statement take a look at independents in the Orlando area just as an example. Same for most other locations, even better example is the Branson area with its independents.
> 
> Quality can still be maintained without the fancy sign hanging off the side of the building. But regarding the  location's in Key West  as "prime site location's "and its high demand for rent's finding it had to fathom KW owner's allowing quality to go down.   MF with still cover renovations as needed. Just no longer paying a 10%+ premium due to a brand name hanging off the side of the building. What owner would not jump at MF staying the same or even heaven forbid decrease in some years verses corporate greed and having to maximize shareholder value.
> 
> ...


This is how it starts, and for the first 10 years or so quality is about the same. It just starts to happen as the board and owners don't want to increase fees every year to maintain the same level of quality that the resort would have kept up if it was still under the brand management. The maintenance fee amount today certainly won't pay for the same stuff 10-15 years in the future. The board wants to dump the current management because they don't see the value in it. They then won't see the same value in the current resort quality, so they will start to go cheap on certain things. Will they be clean and comfortable? Sure. But will they be the same quality as a Hyatt, Marriott or Westin. Not likely.

A way to avoid this is to find another resort manager that would be willing to help keep up good quality standards, but then all you are really saving is maybe 10% overall on total fees. The new management company wants to be paid too.

I too would like to hear about these examples of independents in Orlando and Branson that have the same quality level as the Westin, Marriott and Hyatt properties. I often read that Marriott Willow Ridge Lodge in Branson is perhaps the best quality in terms of resort and villas. Is that not the case?


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## Tenga (Nov 18, 2021)

travelhacker said:


> Which independent resorts in Branson and Orlando would you consider high quality?
> 
> I genuinely can't think of any.


There are several in both locals but the two that came to mind is Grand Crown Resort in Branson and the Star Island Resort and Club in Orlando. 

" Its not the sign on the door that makes it high quality its what the resort has to offer to the traveler ".  Point being that independents resorts can still provide high quality with out some big name brand hanging on its side.

Best,
Tenga


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## RunCat (Nov 18, 2021)

Tenga said:


> Quality can still be maintained without the fancy sign hanging off the side of the building.
> ...
> Best,
> Tenga



I agree that quality can be maintained. And to the discerning eye, it will be noticed.  To the non-discerning eye, a non-brand name location will usually struggle against a branded name.  Hyatt, as a brand, has a certain reputation and value.  The Hyatt Timeshares benefit directly from that affiliation; whether it is worth the cost is a different question.   As a predominantly Welk owner, with no skin in this discussion, I see value for my ownership being affiliated with the Hyatt brand regardless of how good the Welk resorts are.   (And yes, I believe the newer Welk resorts are very good)


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## Tenga (Nov 18, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> This is how it starts, and for the first 10 years or so quality is about the same. It just starts to happen as the board and owners don't want to increase fees every year to maintain the same level of quality that the resort would have kept up if it was still under the brand management. The maintenance fee amount today certainly won't pay for the same stuff 10-15 years in the future. The board wants to dump the current management because they don't see the value in it. They then won't see the same value in the current resort quality, so they will start to go cheap on certain things. Will they be clean and comfortable? Sure. But will they be the same quality as a Hyatt, Marriott or Westin. Not likely.
> 
> A way to avoid this is to find another resort manager that would be willing to help keep up good quality standards, but then all you are really saving is maybe 10% overall on total fees. The new management company wants to be paid too.
> 
> I too would like to hear about these examples of independents in Orlando and Branson that have the same quality level as the Westin, Marriott and Hyatt properties. I often read that Marriott Willow Ridge Lodge in Branson is perhaps the best quality in terms of resort and villas. Is that not the case?


Can you provide some evidence that back up your statement on the first 10 years?  I'd be interested in looking into this. Were did this occur? 
Thank you,
Tenga


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## dioxide45 (Nov 18, 2021)

Tenga said:


> Can you provide some evidence that back up your statement on the first 10 years?  I'd be interested in looking into this. Were did this occur?
> Thank you,
> Tenga


You can look to resorts that Marriott dropped. Aspen and Cedar at Streamside in Vail and perhaps even Spicebush and Swallowtail in Hilton Head Island. Villas at Cave Creek also used to be part of the Starwood (now Vistana) system.

The reason I mention 10 years, is generally this is how long a unit will still look to be in fairly decent condition before lack of maintenance and full refurbishment is required. Very few independants will follow a 5/10 year refurbishment cycle like most of the brands do and it starts to show.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 18, 2021)

Tenga said:


> There are several in both locals but the two that came to mind is Grand Crown Resort in Branson and the Star Island Resort and Club in Orlando.
> 
> " Its not the sign on the door that makes it high quality its what the resort has to offer to the traveler ".  Point being that independents resorts can still provide high quality with out some big name brand hanging on its side.
> 
> ...


Star Island certainly isn't at a level of Marriott or Hyatt. Many people mention that even the Wyndham units there are better quality than the non Wyndham.


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## dayooper (Nov 18, 2021)

Hilton is a brand name that has fairly decent quality. The resorts could enter an agreement with HGVC like the SW Florida affiliates or Bay Club where club membership is voluntary. If an owner wants to enroll in the club, they pay an activation fee and have the ability to trade in HGVC if they wanted to or they just keep their weeks. The SW Florida affiliates have both dedicated weeks and flex weeks in their inventory.

Not that this would ever happen, but a guy living in the cold of Michigan dreaming of Key West can dream, can't he?


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## Tenga (Nov 18, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Star Island certainly isn't at a level of Marriott or Hyatt. Many people mention that even the Wyndham units there are better quality than the non Wyndham.


Stayed there this past June for 7 nights in a 1bedrm, for a independent resort it has nice amenities and the building's including the grounds were in great shape!  Sorry too hear it doesn't make your association of a Marriott or a Hyatt. I'm pretty sure its not marketing its self as one either. 

The point being its not some rundown resort due to lack of maintenance or not being taken care of by its owners thats all. Independents can and do make it. Some will fail others will succeed. 

Best,
Tenga


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## AJCts411 (Nov 18, 2021)

Would maintenance be kept at the same level as HYATT at Sunset? I believe that would be depending on the owners and how expenditures are presented to the owners by the board. Hyatt has a certain standard to which Sunset must meet. No doubt, but, the ultimate beneficiary of those expenditures is the HYATT Brand not necessarily the owners.   

A couple things come to mind on this subject. I don't think one can make a blanket statement that the quality will decline under new management.  And over spending does not add value.   What is really really subjective, what makes and resort a 5 star (or any rating) a 5 star?  To me the furnishings and decor in the units is good.  But I could not say luxurious like I would expect at a 5 star hotels I've stayed at.  Sunset does not have a bar , restaurant or lounge as many 5 star locations do have.  Adding this would cost plenty.  Not that this is a negative for Sunset as all of this is just a block away.  
One of the issues mentioned, HYATT pushing to bring forward maintenance project by years, putting the greater burden of those costs on owners and not the future points system being hyped.  That example is why changing management teams is gaining traction, and because that is only one example of how the corporation is milking the owners at the owners expense,  I'd be a yes.


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## Sapper (Nov 20, 2021)

Kal said:


> The vast majority of Beach House owners are absentees.  They only want the points for use elsewhere so it definitely would not be in their interests to have a stand-alone property.  Many of those owners have never stayed at the Beach House but use the points to stay at HSH.



We own there, and have stayed there three of the past five years, so call it 60% owner occupancy on our part. Of the other owners we have met on site, it seems there is a mix of “we have never gone anywhere else” to “ we are only here every other year”. Of course, the sample we are talking to are on site, so that does not give an accurate cross section of all owners... only that Beach House owners do actually use the property they own. As an aside, the other location we used our points at was Aspen. Now that is gone, maybe we will be more frequent visitors to the Beach House. 



Tenga said:


> Thanks Kal, ya made my point
> 
> Sunset goes BH is next and with 1 out of the 3 in Key West gone. What is left will make the bookings all the harder!  With 2 out of 3 gone in Key West good luck with that sales center being the major hub of sales for Hyatt/Marriott. Could that be the reason Stephen P Weisz spent so much for Welk??? Is this now the sale focus at KW sales center focus on Welk not KW??  It sure feels to me like taking some of the heat off the sales people trying to tout come to KW enjoy your new TS here!
> 
> ...


I think you have been talking with owners who are much more involved than most of the owners. While I have heard that the owners at HBH are more involved in the operation of the property, I have seen more involvement from the board at Highlands Inn (our other Hyatt).

One big problem with HBH leaving the Hyatt system is Hyatt has many more owned units in the HPP than are owned at Sunset. This gives Hyatt a big advantage in forcing the property to remain in the Hyatt system if it comes to a vote.

As for whether we would vote to stay or go, I think that would depend on what the change would be to. I’m not ready to jump out of the frying pan into the fire. For example, if the vote were to go with Sunset over to HGVC, I would probably go for it. If the vote were to shift over to MVC, I would actively fight it.


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## Sapper (Nov 20, 2021)

GTLINZ said:


> My question centered around inventory continuing to be bought by HPP. Since they already have some inventory (not sure of the numbers) they might be compelled to keep buying until they can get a controlling interest back. That motivation for them would likely be tied to the current percentage of ownership they already have.



They would loose ROFR, so would have to actively participate in the resale market and compete against other interested parties. I would think it is possible, not probable. On the other hand, as you state, the motivation is likely tied to their current ownership percentage. Maybe they would actively try to do this with Beach House and not with Sunset as they have a larger existing ownership interest in HBH vs HSH.


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## Sapper (Nov 20, 2021)

dayooper said:


> Hilton is a brand name that has fairly decent quality. The resorts could enter an agreement with HGVC like the SW Florida affiliates or Bay Club where club membership is voluntary. If an owner wants to enroll in the club, they pay an activation fee and have the ability to trade in HGVC if they wanted to or they just keep their weeks. The SW Florida affiliates have both dedicated weeks and flex weeks in their inventory.
> 
> Not that this would ever happen, but a guy living in the cold of Michigan dreaming of Key West can dream, can't he?


I would be happy with this outcome.


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## alexadeparis (Nov 20, 2021)

Tenga said:


> There are several in both locals but the two that came to mind is Grand Crown Resort in Branson and the Star Island Resort and Club in Orlando.
> 
> " Its not the sign on the door that makes it high quality its what the resort has to offer to the traveler ".  Point being that independents resorts can still provide high quality with out some big name brand hanging on its side.
> 
> ...


NONE of those locations you mention are even remotely high quality. A step above Super 8.


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## Tenga (Nov 20, 2021)

alexadeparis said:


> NONE of those locations you mention are even remotely high quality. A step above Super 8.


So says You!  But Shhhhh......  don't tell the parent company of MVC because II has them designated as a Premium Destination Clubs "each offering excelling value even possible the same designated as what you as an owner purchased"????? 

Not sure I've seen any Super 8 with such a hight level of designated?  Sorry I've never been inside a super 8 so I could not compare it.

Best,
Tenga


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## alexadeparis (Nov 20, 2021)

Tenga said:


> So says You!  But Shhhhh......  don't tell the parent company of MVC because II has them designated as a Premium Destination Clubs "each offering excelling value even possible the same designated as what you as an owner purchased"?????
> 
> Not sure I've seen any Super 8 with such a hight level of designated?  Sorry I've never been inside a super 8 so I could not compare it.
> 
> ...


Unless you own at one or both of these places (which I highly suspect you must) I don’t understand why you think these resorts are such high quality and are defending them so strongly. II ratings have a lot of variation within tiers. If you have been involved with timeshares longer than a year or two, you quickly find out what is acceptable to you and what isn’t. I personally only stay at II Elite resorts for the most part. My husband complains about anything less. I only take premier if it’s the ONLY thing available. I don’t even consider anything else. Elites are an A, premier a B and Select a C. If it has no rating to me that is an F. If a Marriott Hyatt or Westin owner (of which I do own all three) traded into your 2 “favorite“ resorts, it would be a trade DOWN. That is absolutely indisputable. Are you sure this is the Hill you want to die on? And there is really no need for insulting comments.

And to keep this on topic, I for one would be sad to see HSH leave the Hyatt system. We have stayed in all The KW properties and the actual location is my favorite of the three, although it is/was the shabbiest of the 3.


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## Kal (Nov 20, 2021)

alexadeparis said:


> Unless you own at one or both of these places (which I highly suspect you must) I don’t understand why you think these resorts are such high quality and are defending them so strongly. II ratings have a lot of variation within tiers. If you have been involved with timeshares longer than a year or two, you quickly find out what is acceptable to you and what isn’t. I personally only stay at II Elite resorts for the most part. My husband complains about anything less. I only take premier if it’s the ONLY thing available. I don’t even consider anything else. Elites are an A, premier a B and Select a C. If it has no rating to me that is an F. If a Marriott Hyatt or Westin owner (of which I do own all three) traded into your 2 “favorite“ resorts, it would be a trade DOWN. That is absolutely indisputable. Are you sure this is the Hill you want to die on? And there is really no need for insulting comments.
> 
> And to keep this on topic, I for one would be sad to see HSH leave the Hyatt system. We have stayed in all The KW properties and the actual location is my favorite of the three, although it is/was the shabbiest of the 3.


I doubt any HSH owner would disagree with you.  But, they (we) always come back with LOCATION.  It would be wonderful to swap Windward Pointe into the HSH property.  Windward Pointe is nice but at lands end.


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## tahoeJoe (Nov 22, 2021)

So Grand Aspen is leaving Hyatt? Sunset Harbor is considering leaving, Miami at the Blue left years ago as did Escala Lodge in Park City. NYC never opened. What does this say about the Hyatt Residence club or Hyatt management in general? Maybe this is why Marriott is openly talking about merging their internal trading with Vistana (i.e. Westin) but no talk of merging systems with Hyatt Residence Club.


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## Sapper (Nov 22, 2021)

tahoeJoe said:


> So Grand Aspen is leaving Hyatt? Sunset Harbor is considering leaving, Miami at the Blue left years ago as did Escala Lodge in Park City. NYC never opened. What does this say about the Hyatt Residence club or Hyatt management in general? Maybe this is why Marriott is openly talking about merging their internal trading with Vistana (i.e. Westin) but no talk of merging systems with Hyatt Residence Club.



The future Miami and Park City locations never became a party to HRC. They were going to be, and things changed. That was well before II purchased Hyatt, so as much as I dislike MVC, we cannot blame them for it.

Hyatt management pre II / MVC was pretty good all things considered.

There is an existing contract in place with Hyatt Hotels that probably either prevents the system merger, or if MVC strips the properties of the Hyatt name, it will cost MVC a rather large pile of cash.  My guess is MVC wanted II for a different reason, and Hyatt was along for the ride. Now, MVC is attempting to put lipstick on a pig (pardon the term) by purchasing and combining with Welk with the intent of selling as fast as they can figure out who can pay the highest price.


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## escanoe (Nov 23, 2021)

I would hope that HGVC would love to cut deals with HSH and HBH if they moved away from Hyatt together (not that any of this is likely). I am sure they would love to have some footprint there and IMHO do an excellent job managing properties without exorbitant fees. 



dioxide45 said:


> I find it doubtful that the boards would want to align with MVC given that MVC is also owned by the same parent company that owns HRC. Very likely that these two properties would go independant and perhaps find a management company to manage the operations and reservation system. Could be something like VRI, but VRI is again owned by the same parent company that owns HRC. That being Marriott Vacations Worldwide.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 23, 2021)

Have we ever seen a situation where a resort has changed from one timeshare brand affiliation to another? I know hotels jump around all the time, but things get messy with timeshares. Not sure we would see this happen. Not saying it isn't possible, but not probable.


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## Sapper (Nov 23, 2021)

escanoe said:


> I would hope that HGVC would love to cut deals with HSH and HBH if they moved away from Hyatt together (not that any of this is likely). I am sure they would love to have some footprint there and IMHO do an excellent job managing properties without exorbitant fees.



As unlikely as it may be, I’m sure HGVC would jump at the chance to get two affiliates in Key West. I would also be happy to see HGVC pick the management contract up.


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## dayooper (Nov 24, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Have we ever seen a situation where a resort has changed from one timeshare brand affiliation to another? I know hotels jump around all the time, but things get messy with timeshares. Not sure we would see this happen. Not saying it isn't possible, but not probable.



I would think the weeks Hyatt owns for their points program would be a difficult hurdle to overcome for an outside program like HGVC.


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## RunCat (Nov 25, 2021)

dayooper said:


> I would think the weeks Hyatt owns for their points program would be a difficult hurdle to overcome for an outside program like HGVC.


You would likely end up with a dual-affiliation program; perhaps similar to what happened in Northstar.


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## dayooper (Nov 25, 2021)

RunCat said:


> You would likely end up with a dual-affiliation program; perhaps similar to what happened in Northstar.



Don‘t get me wrong, I would LOVE having Sunset Harbor in the HGVC system. I would love it even more if HGVC bought the entire Hyatt system, even if it was some sort of affiliate trading program. The 2 systems complement each other so well. Only 2 duplicate locations (Maui and Breckinridge and those are very desirable places) so they would just add to both systems. It’s not gonna happen, but I can dream, right?

BTW - We almost bought into Hyatt (resale) last summer, but didn’t find a deed at the price we wanted. Bought another HGVC this summer.


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## AJCts411 (Nov 25, 2021)

RunCat said:


> You would likely end up with a dual-affiliation program; perhaps similar to what happened in Northstar.



May be wrong, wouldn't the Hyatt points trust be merely owners? They own weeks to back up the points they sell.  So I'd assume that those HPP owned units would be available withing that Hyatt points system. And as owners, the trust would just have to pay annual maintenance fees just like owners would.  If HPP wanted out they could sell on the open market. Just like any other owner at Sunset.


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## Quinte (Nov 25, 2021)

Don't own at HSH but at HBH.  

If I was asked, this question at any of my Hyatts with deeded week (HBH & HWOR) I would vote *NO*. The reason is

Multiple trading systems in one. 
HRC,
II, and
World of Hyatt.  

COVID made clear that options are needed. If we had a deeded week in an independent resort it would likely have been completely lost to us, since we have not been able to travel into the US for a year and a half.   Although you could own independent resorts and go through II or RCI, from what I understand the restrictions made it impractical for many Canadians. Family members who own in the Orlando area had losses because they could not travel.  Yes, some folks went to the US exploiting the flying loophole, but that does not work if you still are employed and would have needed to isolate for two weeks when you got back. 

*The real advantage was to t*r*ansfer points to HPP and then from HPP to W.O.H. points.*  We can now used these points well into the future and we can use them to stay at Hyatt hotels in Canada (or anywhere else for that matter).  As long as COVID stays tame, we hope to use them in Puerto Rico - for a pre-cruise hotel - in March.


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## Sapper (Nov 25, 2021)

AJCts411 said:


> May be wrong, wouldn't the Hyatt points trust be merely owners? They own weeks to back up the points they sell.  So I'd assume that those HPP owned units would be available withing that Hyatt points system. And as owners, the trust would just have to pay annual maintenance fees just like owners would.  If HPP wanted out they could sell on the open market. Just like any other owner at Sunset.



The problem with Hyatt owning units in HPP is Hyatt can use the deeds to vote what they want. For example, for the property to NOT leave Hyatt management. This is more of a problem for Beach House than Sunset as Hyatt owns many more unit weeks at HBH than HSH.  Conversely, IF Hyatt wanted to cause more trouble and bring the property back under Hyatt management down the road, they could buy back units until they own enough to control the vote (I’m assuming it’s 51%, but could be something else).  Again, this would be easier for them to do at HBH because of their current ownership percentage.


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## RunCat (Nov 26, 2021)

AJCts411 said:


> May be wrong, wouldn't the Hyatt points trust be merely owners? They own weeks to back up the points they sell.  So I'd assume that those HPP owned units would be available withing that Hyatt points system. And as owners, the trust would just have to pay annual maintenance fees just like owners would.  If HPP wanted out they could sell on the open market. Just like any other owner at Sunset.



when Welk resorts bough Hyatt Northstar, there were some Hyatt owners that already owned units. They did not lose their Hyatt affiliation due to the purchase. Thus some units in Hyatt were available via Hyatt and the bulk were part of the Welk system. My assumption would be that the trust units would likely remain accessible to Hyatt owners and the other units would be avsilable to the other system.


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## Sugarcubesea (Dec 1, 2021)

dayooper said:


> Hilton is a brand name that has fairly decent quality. The resorts could enter an agreement with HGVC like the SW Florida affiliates or Bay Club where club membership is voluntary. If an owner wants to enroll in the club, they pay an activation fee and have the ability to trade in HGVC if they wanted to or they just keep their weeks. The SW Florida affiliates have both dedicated weeks and flex weeks in their inventory.
> 
> Not that this would ever happen, but a guy living in the cold of Michigan dreaming of Key West can dream, can't he?



@dayooper , I'm in Michigan as well and this past week has solidified my decision even further as to why I'm moving to FL upon retirement.  I love my HBH and I love staying in Key West, and I can not wait to get back to Key West next March.  I really want to exchange in Texas and CA with Hyatt, so I hope options stay that we can still internally exchange.


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## magicjourney (Dec 1, 2021)

I always wonder why the MFs of The Galleon Resort, a direct comparison of HSH, is only ~$1,000? That's $800 less than what we pay. And its resale value is much higher according to redweek.  If we can find a management company like that, I have no problem to vote YES for my 3 units.


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## Kal (Dec 2, 2021)

magicjourney said:


> I always wonder why the MFs of The Galleon Resort, a direct comparison of HSH, is only ~$1,000? That's $800 less than what we pay. And its resale value is much higher according to redweek.  If we can find a management company like that, I have no problem to vote YES for my 3 units.


Stated another way, that would make HSH MFs 45% lower.  The difference is the price for Hyatt's involvement.


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## alameda94501 (Jan 1, 2022)

GTLINZ said:


> My question centered around inventory continuing to be bought by HPP. Since they already have some inventory (not sure of the numbers) they might be compelled to keep buying until they can get a controlling interest back. That motivation for them would likely be tied to the current percentage of ownership they already have.



Sorry for bringing up a quiet thread, but looking at Aspen on the Hyatt Portal, it looks like Hyatt Portfolio accepts non Hyatt resorts fine, as it would if Sunset Harbor moves out (sigh).

My question is whether Aspen still has Hyatt ROFR in place. Regardless of "Hyatt as management company", it still seems that "Hyatt as developer" should be able to buy back Aspen unit weeks.  

Side note, it appears like the renegade resorts (Aspen and Sunset Harbor) have members that love their resort but need at least more flexibility than their specific unit week - intra-resort exchange without going inter-resort.  I heard that Aspen actually did something like this prior to exit.


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## AJCts411 (Jan 3, 2022)

Wondering about where the so called renegade group exists for Sunset?  Other than in this thread, I have not heard anything futher regarding this topic.  I'd assume that if Hyatt is no longer the mangers (if thats the right word) of Aspen, that Hyatt ROFR has also been canceled.


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## Sapper (Jan 3, 2022)

AJCts411 said:


> Wondering about where the so called renegade group exists for Sunset?  Other than in this thread, I have not heard anything futher regarding this topic.  I'd assume that if Hyatt is no longer the mangers (if thats the right word) of Aspen, that Hyatt ROFR has also been canceled.



Developer Rights and Management abilities may be separated depending on how the contracts are written, but they are separate things. You can look at properties in other clubs as an example, Valdoro is now in HGVC. However, HGVC does not have ROFR as the original property developer retained those rights.  Similarly, I can see a situation where Hyatt has retained ROFR at Aspen as a developer right, but no longer manages the property. Whether they will ever exercise this right again is a different question.


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## alameda94501 (Jan 3, 2022)

Sapper said:


> [...]  Similarly, I can see a situation where Hyatt has retained ROFR at Aspen as a developer right, but no longer manages the property. Whether they will ever exercise this right again is a different question.



Exactly.  Seeing as the Aspen developer sold all those 207 unit weeks to Portfolio, I'm sure they don't have a problem selling more.  I've never looked at resales for Aspen before but looking today at what's on the internet (which may be a ghost of the Hyatt days) they seem significantly steep compared to other HRC resale unit weeks.  Do sellers get those prices ($35k-$650k)?  I'm sure Hyatt Portfolio would be interested in more Aspen inventory but maybe not at those prices...


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## Sapper (Jan 5, 2022)

alameda94501 said:


> Exactly.  Seeing as the Aspen developer sold all those 207 unit weeks to Portfolio, I'm sure they don't have a problem selling more.  I've never looked at resales for Aspen before but looking today at what's on the internet (which may be a ghost of the Hyatt days) they seem significantly steep compared to other HRC resale unit weeks.  Do sellers get those prices ($35k-$650k)?  I'm sure Hyatt Portfolio would be interested in more Aspen inventory but maybe not at those prices...



I think it depends on Hyatt’s long term goal for the property. If they want to sell off their HPP holdings and remove the property because they are no longer “in control” as the management company, then they may not exercise ROFR. However, if their end goal is to increase their holdings in order to dominate the BOD and reinstall themselves as the management company, then Hyatt may take units through ROFR even if the price is higher than what they may like (boosting the sale prices in the process).

How far away is Hyatt from the percentage of ownership required to control the BOD?  How badly does Hyatt want Aspen?  The answers to these two questions may help to resolve their future goals for Aspen.

As for the resale market, the current state is about the same as the state when they were wrapping up actively selling the property new.  The change in management does not seem to have made much difference in the number of units on the market or the asking price (no way to know whether sellers are now more or less willing to negotiate).  This is in contrast to what the Aspen Ritz has experienced, which is basically a price collapse from the cheapest unit going for over $100k to now where the cheapest unit can be had for under $10k (even saw one being given away because the owner did not want to pay the $15k maintenance fee).


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## AJCts411 (Jan 6, 2022)

Perhaps Aspen should, as a preventative move, have the BOD pass a resolution that no BOD member maybe elected or sit on the BOD that is an employee (using the broadest definition) of any company the the resort employs for as management, maintenance provider or service provider. I'm sure a lawyer could turn that resolution into a few pages to close any loop holes.


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## Sapper (Jan 6, 2022)

AJCts411 said:


> Perhaps Aspen should, as a preventative move, have the BOD pass a resolution that no BOD member maybe elected or sit on the BOD that is an employee (using the broadest definition) of any company the the resort employs for as management, maintenance provider or service provider. I'm sure a lawyer could turn that resolution into a few pages to close any loop holes.


If they are forward thinking, they should do that now rather than later.


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## suzannesimon (Jan 9, 2022)

I don’t think I would support it unless we were guaranteed another decent hotel-branded management company. I’m happy to pay extra maintenance to have a brand-standard level of service and appearance.


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## AJCts411 (Jan 10, 2022)

suzannesimon said:


> I don’t think I would support it unless we were guaranteed another decent hotel-branded management company. I’m happy to pay extra maintenance to have a brand-standard level of service and appearance.



I understand your point in that using the Hyatt brand name, the resort must be maintained to a certain level.   But I do not think that that bar is so high that another competent management company would fail.  For example, if a new company resulted in 15% lower costs (due to branding costs, office management fees),  and the maintenance fees went down a equivalent amount then we as owners our BOD would expect/demand the same level of maintenance.  There would be some sort of contractual obligation defines things like scheduled renovations, replacement, etc.  To me it is not the brand as much as it the results, experience, cost and elimination of certain HRC rules.


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## ocdb8r (Jan 10, 2022)

AJCts411 said:


> I understand your point in that using the Hyatt brand name, the resort must be maintained to a certain level.   But I do not think that that bar is so high that another competent management company would fail.  For example, if a new company resulted in 15% lower costs (due to branding costs, office management fees),  and the maintenance fees went down a equivalent amount then we as owners our BOD would expect/demand the same level of maintenance.  There would be some sort of contractual obligation defines things like scheduled renovations, replacement, etc.  To me it is not the brand as much as it the results, experience, cost and elimination of certain HRC rules.



Easy to describe, much harder to put into practice.  The reality is that the "brand standard" provides a clear set of guidelines for Boards to hold to.  Absent that, in the short term it's easier to hold on to the most recent "standard" of accommodation, but over time it inevitably slips as Boards have to confront the inevitable desire of owners to decrease costs.



AJCts411 said:


> Perhaps Aspen should, as a preventative move, have the BOD pass a resolution that no BOD member maybe elected or sit on the BOD that is an employee (using the broadest definition) of any company the the resort employs for as management, maintenance provider or service provider. I'm sure a lawyer could turn that resolution into a few pages to close any loop holes.



I think a more common (and likely less controversial) practice would be to require Board members to recuse themselves on any "related party" or "conflict of interest" transaction (which could bar a Hyatt employee who is a Board member from voting on a contract involving Hyatt - requiring the other uninterested Board members to approve).  I think there could be difficulty precluding an owner from serving on the Board solely as a result of their employment (and/or precluding a corporation who owns multiple weeks from fielding a candidate).


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## bdbrecheen (Jan 13, 2022)

For those of you that know owners at Hyatt Grand Aspen, ask them how they are now feeling knowing they cannot trade into any other HVC property. The ones I know are furious and said they were not told about this little tidbit of info prior to the change in management companies. They are now locked into a contract with the new management company with no recourse. Sometimes when you cut off your nose to spite your face the repercussions are not what you expected.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 13, 2022)

bdbrecheen said:


> For those of you that know owners at Hyatt Grand Aspen, ask them how they are now feeling knowing they cannot trade into any other HVC property. The ones I know are furious and said they were not told about this little tidbit of info prior to the change in management companies. They are now locked into a contract with the new management company with no recourse. Sometimes when you cut off your nose to spite your face the repercussions are not what you expected.


And ask them how much their fees went down with the switch...


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## Kal (Jan 13, 2022)

bdbrecheen said:


> For those of you that know owners at Hyatt Grand Aspen, ask them how they are now feeling knowing they cannot trade into any other HVC property. The ones I know are furious and said they were not told about this little tidbit of info prior to the change in management companies. They are now locked into a contract with the new management company with no recourse. Sometimes when you cut off your nose to spite your face the repercussions are not what you expected.


Maybe one of the major reasons is to eliminate the constant churn of other non-Aspen HRC members using the Aspen property.  It's no longer the equivalent to an AirBnB. Given the quality of Aspen, it might be a stretch for those owners to want to stay at a number of the other HRC properties.  Too much of a step-down.


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## AJCts411 (Jan 13, 2022)

bdbrecheen said:


> For those of you that know owners at Hyatt Grand Aspen, ask them how they are now feeling knowing they cannot trade into any other HVC property. The ones I know are furious and said they were not told about this little tidbit of info prior to the change in management companies. They are now locked into a contract with the new management company with no recourse. Sometimes when you cut off your nose to spite your face the repercussions are not what you expected.



From what I have read, wasn't tthat kind of the point, to oust Hyatt and the point trader rift raft?


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## Sapper (Jan 13, 2022)

Kal said:


> Maybe one of the major reasons is to eliminate the constant churn of other non-Aspen HRC members using the Aspen property.  It's no longer the equivalent to an AirBnB. Given the quality of Aspen, it might be a stretch for those owners to want to stay at a number of the other HRC properties.  Too much of a step-down.



I can certainly see an Aspen owner giving up their week for a week at the Park Hyatt BC during ski season or to go to Maui, Carmel or Siesta Key.  Even just using their bonus points to have an odd weekend at any of the Hyatt properties and not give up their week In Aspen.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 13, 2022)

Kal said:


> Maybe one of the major reasons is to eliminate the constant churn of other non-Aspen HRC members using the Aspen property.  It's no longer the equivalent to an AirBnB. Given the quality of Aspen, it might be a stretch for those owners to want to stay at a number of the other HRC properties.  Too much of a step-down.


With HPP still owning a percentage of weeks at Aspen, this change won't stop anything. If owners really used their weeks as much as they claim they did, there shouldn't have been much churn anyway. The only way HRC members can book in is if Aspen owners used their weeks for other HRC resorts.


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## Sapper (Jan 13, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> With HPP still owning a percentage of weeks at Aspen, this change won't stop anything. If owners really used their weeks as much as they claim they did, there shouldn't have been much churn anyway. The only way HRC members can book in is if Aspen owners used their weeks for other HRC resorts.



I booked HRC there all the time.


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## dmelcher13 (Jan 13, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> With HPP still owning a percentage of weeks at Aspen, this change won't stop anything. If owners really used their weeks as much as they claim they did, there shouldn't have been much churn anyway. The only way HRC members can book in is if Aspen owners used their weeks for other HRC resorts.



HRC owners can book HPP at the 6 month mark.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 13, 2022)

Sapper said:


> I booked HRC there all the time.


That is somewhat my point. The ownership didn't like HRC riff raff, so they vote to do away with Hyatt as the management company. It was their own use of HRC that caused other HRC owners to be able to go there.


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## Sapper (Jan 13, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> That is somewhat my point. The ownership didn't like HRC riff raff, so they vote to do away with Hyatt as the management company. It was their own use of HRC that caused other HRC owners to be able to go there.


Which is why I mentioned it.


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## ivywag (Jan 13, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> With HPP still owning a percentage of weeks at Aspen, this change won't stop anything. If owners really used their weeks as much as they claim they did, there shouldn't have been much churn anyway. The only way HRC members can book in is if Aspen owners used their weeks for other HRC resorts.


Exactly!  There had to be an available week.  Perhaps they think that they can rent out the available weeks.  I don’t know—it’s pretty dead there in the off season. We only go there then because my husband is a fly fisherman.


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## Kal (Jan 14, 2022)

alameda94501 said:


> Exactly.  Seeing as the Aspen developer sold all those 207 unit weeks to Portfolio, I'm sure they don't have a problem selling more.  I've never looked at resales for Aspen before but looking today at what's on the internet (which may be a ghost of the Hyatt days) they seem significantly steep compared to other HRC resale unit weeks.  Do sellers get those prices ($35k-$650k)?  I'm sure Hyatt Portfolio would be interested in more Aspen inventory but maybe not at those prices...


Those 207 unit weeks represent maybe 8% of the total number of unit weeks at the property.  I can't imagine that HPP would even step up to the plate to pay that kind of money to strengthen their Aspen inventory.


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## sjsharkie (Jan 14, 2022)

Kal said:


> Those 207 unit weeks represent maybe 8% of the total number of unit weeks at the property.  I can't imagine that HPP would even step up to the plate to pay that kind of money to strengthen their Aspen inventory.


Ditto.  Why would they buy more weeks at Aspen? -- they rarely even exercise ROFR on things that are in their current management domain.

Aspen is totally different from all of the other HRC portfolio properties.  I don't see being able to get the board and votes to do this at any other property (maybe something small like Siesta Key but even that seems far fetched). Too hard with HRC ownership percentages, board composition and owners that like the brand/system.

-ryan


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## travelhacker (Jan 14, 2022)

Kal said:


> Those 207 unit weeks represent maybe 8% of the total number of unit weeks at the property.  I can't imagine that HPP would even step up to the plate to pay that kind of money to strengthen their Aspen inventory.


So those 207 unit weeks aren't actually unit weeks, they are 1/20th shares. Given that there are around 50 units, HPP owns roughly 20%.


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## Kal (Jan 14, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> So those 207 unit weeks aren't actually unit weeks, they are 1/20th shares. Given that there are around 50 units, HPP owns roughly 20%.


It depends on how you count the "unit week".  In HPP, you're booking a 7-day week, not a 1/20th share.  The balance of that ownership is accounted for in other ways.


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## travelhacker (Jan 14, 2022)

Kal said:


> It depends on how you count the "unit week".  In HPP, you're booking a 7-day week, not a 1/20th share.  The balance of that ownership is accounted for in other ways.


I’m saying that what was conveyed to the trust was 207 1/20th shares, which isn’t about 8% it’s about 20%.


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## alameda94501 (Jan 14, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> In saying that what was conveyed to the trust was 208 1/20th shares, which isn’t about 8% it’s about 20%.



Thanks @travelhacker I was a bit confused until I looked at the trust documents - I had written down 20% a few years ago and then was wondering why it was only adding up to 8%.  I can't edit my other post but yes, it's 207 shares - not unit-weeks.


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