# R.I.P. -- Joe Paterno



## Talent312 (Jan 22, 2012)

The recent scandal and the lapse in judgment notwithstanding, in his 61 years at Penn State, he left an indelible mark on college football and nurtured the careers of a great many prominent personalities in football today.


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## am1 (Jan 22, 2012)

Hopefully his legacy will be that doing the right thing is the most important and not the mistakes that he made.  This should change what people will do in the future when they are unsure how to react.  This is a much better legacy then being the winningest coach in 1A football.


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## chalucky (Jan 22, 2012)

How easy was the rush to judgement/firing on this man. We accord terrorists more due process than this he got. It was shameful the way he was treated.

RIP to a man that was a force for 
what is good in college athletics.


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## dmharris (Jan 22, 2012)

chalucky said:


> How easy was the rush to judgement/firing on this man. We accord terrorists more due process than this he got. It was shameful the way he was treated.
> 
> RIP to a man that was a force for
> what is good in college athletics.




Very insightful!  Do you think his firing contributed to the speedy deterioration of his health?  I do.  I'm wondering how Penn State's coffers will fare in the next year from donors?


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## kenie (Jan 22, 2012)

Yeah it's rough when you need to worry about the donors.
Nevermind the kids that were molested that he could have helped by not condoning and ignoring what happened.

He was a good coach but IMO his position and power went to his head by putting the welfare of the program above that of children. 

Why is it that that aspect always seems to be lost????


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## dmharris (Jan 22, 2012)

I see them as two separate issues; I'm discussing JoePa not the other one which I'll let others discuss, like you, have at it.


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## ace2000 (Jan 22, 2012)

dmharris said:


> I see them as two separate issues; I'm discussing JoePa not the other one which I'll let others discuss, like you, have at it.


 
How can you say they're two separate issues?  They're obviously related.  The fund raising is very much attached to the scandal, so why did you bring it up?

Anyhow, RIP Joe Paterno.   Penn State was never my favorite college football team, but I had a ton of respect for the way he ran his program.

When former U.S. Senator Thomas Hart Benton was asked to criticize a deceased colleague, he replied, "When God puts his hand on a man, sir, I take mine off."


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## dmharris (Jan 22, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> How can you say they're two separate issues?  They're obviously related.



I'm done here.


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## pedro47 (Jan 22, 2012)

R.I.P. to an outstanding man with strong conviction to fair play to all his students.

I can forgive.


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## jlf58 (Jan 22, 2012)

Amazing , simply amazing.... a young boy gets raped and its a lapse in judgment ???  Thats kind of like saying that guy in prison was very nice except for the people he killed. Wake up people, what he did was boderline criminal and certain not moral. He did it to protect his  football program...


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## jlf58 (Jan 22, 2012)

JoePa watched his assistant rape a young boy... go ahead, you can say it ? I bet if that boy was your son, your opinion would change. Sad people put football ahead of people 



dmharris said:


> I see them as two separate issues; I'm discussing JoePa not the other one which I'll let others discuss, like you, have at it.


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## bogey21 (Jan 22, 2012)

Fletch said:


> *JoePa watched his assistant rape a young boy...*



Number one, this statement is not factual.  Number two, let's find out exactly what JoePa was told by McQuery.  No doubt he made a big mistake in judgement by not taking the info he was given seriously enough.  But let's see what all the facts are.

George


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## Fern Modena (Jan 22, 2012)

I don't think that his firing contributed to the speedy deterioration of his health.  IMNSHO, he probably ignored the signs of lung cancer for many years, so "dedicated to the game" as he was.  He just couldn't stop working, until he was forced to.  And once he was, his son took him to the doctor's for a bronchitis which wouldn't go away, and the cancer was discovered.  You don't die from early stage lung cancer.

I wonder whose choice it was that he die in a hospital. He was no longer taking chemo treatments, so that wasn't an issue.  I think his family was delusional, given the remarks his son made on Twitter last night.

Fern



dmharris said:


> Very insightful!  Do you think his firing contributed to the speedy deterioration of his health?  I do.  I'm wondering how Penn State's coffers will fare in the next year from donors?


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## Passepartout (Jan 22, 2012)

JoePa was of a generation where polite people didn't say the things about- and to- people that needed to be said. Surely the last few months of his life were a torment to him every minute.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

I can only hope he has found peace.

Jim


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## jlf58 (Jan 22, 2012)

This is a quote from Joe 2 weeks ago...
Dropping the ball is understament. Add that to the fact that I am sure Joe was very careful with his words in the interview. 



"(McQueary) was very upset and I said why, and he was very reluctant to get into it," Paterno said. "He told me what he saw, and I said, what? He said it, well, looked like inappropriate, or fondling, I'm not quite sure exactly how he put it. I said you did what you had to do. It's my job now to figure out what we want to do. So I sat around. It was a Saturday. Waited till Sunday because I wanted to make sure I knew what I was doing. And then I called my superiors and I said, 'Hey, we got a problem, I think. Would you guys look into it?' Cause I didn't know, you know. We never had, until that point, 58 years I think, I had never had to deal with something like that. And I didn't feel adequate.

"You know, he didn't want to get specific. And to be frank with you I don't know that it would have done any good, because I never heard of, of, rape and a man. So I just did what I thought was best. I talked to people that I thought would be, if there was a problem, that would be following up on it."

Paterno said he told athletic director Tim Curley and school vice president Gary Schultz what he saw and left it in their hands to do the right thing:

"I didn't know exactly how to handle it and I was afraid to do something that might jeopardize what the university procedure was," he said. "So I backed away and turned it over to some other people, people I thought would have a little more expertise than I did. It didn't work out that way."




bogey21 said:


> Number one, this statement is not factual.  Number two, let's find out exactly what JoePa was told by McQuery.  No doubt he made a big mistake in judgement by not taking the info he was given seriously enough.  But let's see what all the facts are.
> 
> George


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## jlf58 (Jan 22, 2012)

sorry, u r correct, his assistant saw the other assistand and told joe 



bogey21 said:


> Number one, this statement is not factual.  Number two, let's find out exactly what JoePa was told by McQuery.  No doubt he made a big mistake in judgement by not taking the info he was given seriously enough.  But let's see what all the facts are.
> 
> George


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## DeniseM (Jan 22, 2012)

My mom died from lung cancer - it is one of the worst cancers.  The average life expectancy after someone's been diagnosed with lung cancer is 9 mos. - that means half the victims never reach the 9 mo. mark, so his quick demise is typical for the disease.  My mom was diagnosed in the month of Sept. and died in Dec.

I don't know of Paterno was a current smoker, but nearly everyone of his generation smoked in their younger days.  My mom hadn't smoked for over 20 years when she was diagnosed, but the damage had already been done.


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## laurac260 (Jan 22, 2012)

I've stated my opinion about the whole Sandusky scandal many times on this board, so I won't address them here at all.  I'll just say this:


As soon as JoePa was fired I said on this very board he'd be dead within the year.  

Football was what kept him alive.  In his mind, he lost everything he lived for.


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## pjrose (Jan 22, 2012)

laurac260 said:


> I've stated my opinion about the whole Sandusky scandal many times on this board, so I won't address them here at all.  I'll just say this:
> 
> 
> As soon as JoePa was fired I said on this very board he'd be dead within the year.
> ...



+1 on that.  
Not that the PSU administration should have just ignored him, but I think letting him finish out his last season and retire with dignity would have been better.  

My best wishes are with his family.


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## paxsarah (Jan 22, 2012)

My thoughts are with Joe Paterno's family and all of our friends in the Penn State community. I'm thinking of my former colleague whose first year of graduate school (in a liberal arts field) was funded by the Paternos, and another friend who reminded me of the huge number of books she checked out of the library inscribed with the message that they were purchased with funding from Joe and Sue Paterno. Most of the country will remember Joe Paterno for his decades of coaching, as well as the recent scandal, but members of the Penn State community will just as much mourn the loss of a fierce champion of education.


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## AKE (Jan 22, 2012)

I don't think that most here get it.  There is nothing more important than protecting those that cannot protect themselves, namely children.  I don't care if he was Einstein or pick any other revered figure, what he supposedly condoned or overlooked will always overshadow anything else that he did in life.  Too much emphasis is placed on sports instead of basic humanity and decency.


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## Talent312 (Jan 22, 2012)

AKE said:


> I don't think that most here get it.



IMO, what those who choose to heap scorn on his corpse fail to get is that its "basic humanity and decency" to accord the dead a modicum of respect or hold their tongue, at least for a wee little bit.

There's an old adage that one should not speak ill of the dead. I think it means that we should at allow some time to pass, before passing judgment on someone's life work.


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## Patri (Jan 22, 2012)

I think history will favor JoePa. The trustees did not even let the justice system run its course. JoePa and Sue's legacy will reap benefits for decades to come. There will never be another couple like them at Penn State.
The people who know them get it. The armchair judges can keep issuing verdicts. The law will take care of the criminals.


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## AKE (Jan 23, 2012)

Talent312 said:


> IMO, what those who choose to heap scorn on his corpse fail to get is that its "basic humanity and decency" to accord the dead a modicum of respect or hold their tongue, at least for a wee little bit.
> 
> There's an old adage that one should not speak ill of the dead. I think it means that we should at allow some time to pass, before passing judgment on someone's life work.



Normally I would agree but not in this case. Anyone who knows of, and does not report to the authorities of kids supposedly being molested deserves nothing.  These children, now adults, will bear the scars for life and this is something he had the ability to stop.  He had the choice and he chose not to. There are no excuses.


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## Skittles1 (Jan 23, 2012)

This Penn Stater's heart is truly sad today, as we mourn the loss of Joe Paterno.  My thoughts and prayers are with his family.  It saddens me that this great man, who did so much for the university that he loved, will forever be remembered as a part of this terrible scandal.


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## Talent312 (Jan 23, 2012)

AKE said:


> ... Anyone who knows of, and does not report to the authorities of kids supposedly being molested deserves nothing.... [T]his is something he had the ability to stop...



There's no doubt that he should have done more. He has acknowledged that. However, statements such as these are half-truths and suppositions.  He made a report, and his superiors did nothing. Whether he had the ability to stop it is debatable. 

Kick this dead horse, spit in his grave (figuratively), but at this point, all it does is satisfy one's own sense of indignation.


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## jlf58 (Jan 23, 2012)

A leader for 6 decades and for this he made a report. Thats taking control of the issue correctly all right. Bottom line is he protected the football program before the kids and for that he is scum !!


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## am1 (Jan 23, 2012)

Patri said:


> I think history will favor JoePa. The trustees did not even let the justice system run its course. JoePa and Sue's legacy will reap benefits for decades to come. There will never be another couple like them at Penn State.
> The people who know them get it. The armchair judges can keep issuing verdicts. The law will take care of the criminals.



Penn State firing him had nothing to do with with the justice system.

He always expected more from his players than "just not breaking the law".  How many players were kicked off the team for actions that did not break the law but were not with the values of being a college athlete?  How many times were players kicked off the team before they were found guilty in a court of law.


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## ksqdomer (Jan 23, 2012)

am1 said:


> Penn State firing him had nothing to do with with the justice system.
> 
> He always expected more from his players than "just not breaking the law".  How many players were kicked off the team for actions that did not break the law but were not with the values of being a college athlete?  How many times were players kicked off the team before they were found guilty in a court of law.



apparently not that many lately. Joe made them pick up trash on Sunday in the stadium instead.:hysterical:


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## geekette (Jan 23, 2012)

Fletch said:


> A leader for 6 decades and for this he made a report. Thats taking control of the issue correctly all right. Bottom line is he protected the football program before the kids and for that he is scum !!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jlf58 (Jan 23, 2012)

He is a father and a man. He could have followed up, he could have talked to Sandusky, he could have spoken to the law, should I go on ? Just depends on priorities, his was football, most people, TUG not withstanding in lots of cases, it would have been the innocent child. I pity anyone who thinks thier resonsibility is less.  



geekette said:


> Fletch said:
> 
> 
> > A leader for 6 decades and for this he made a report. Thats taking control of the issue correctly all right. Bottom line is he protected the football program before the kids and for that he is scum !!
> ...


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## laurac260 (Jan 23, 2012)

Deleted deleted deleted


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## ricoba (Jan 23, 2012)

Bill Dwyre in today's LA Times, does an interesting comparison of the life and legacy of two college coaching greats, John Wooden and Joe Paterno.

I find the ending statement well stated and poignant, "We will remember Wooden with blue skies, gentle breezes and a symphony orchestra playing in the background. We will remember Paterno with an asterisk."

Here is the full article.


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## geekette (Jan 23, 2012)

Fletch said:


> He is a father and a man. He could have followed up, he could have talked to Sandusky, he could have spoken to the law, should I go on ? Just depends on priorities, his was football, most people, TUG not withstanding in lots of cases, it would have been the innocent child. I pity anyone who thinks thier resonsibility is less.
> 
> 
> You don't know.  You weren't there.
> ...


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## geekette (Jan 23, 2012)

laurac260 said:


> <<<<Rest in peace, JoPa. ...



This might just be the most insensitive, vile, disgusting statement I have read on TUG  to date.  

Thank goodness we can simply click to quote someone.  If I'd had to re-type this to make my point, I don't think I could have lowered myself to do so.  You should be ashamed of yourself.  [/QUOTE]

Wow.  You haven't been around long.  I removed it since you were offended.  

I'm not ashamed of myself for sticking up for a dead man that is on this thread being crucified for crimes committed by another.  To me, that is the insensitive, vile and disgusting stuff going on here.  your opinion is obviously different.


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## jlf58 (Jan 23, 2012)

First off, he wasn't a dead man until recently (see your post below) secondly Sandusky reported directly to him ? ?Bosses are responsible for what people under them do. Your missing the BIG point, as a boss, if someone is using my locker room to rape small boys, yes, I might want to look further into it myself. You are very nieve to think Joe was onlyworried about his football program and not what actually happen. Joe was either an idiot or a sly fox, you pick which but either makes him look pretty bad. 

""  Exactly how could he have prevented Sandusky from doing anything?  ""

Really, geez, I dont know, how about firing him so he couldn't rape any more kids on Penn State property, just a thought. Thats the problem with the world, people stand by and do nothing !! I am done with this, I think he is scum, you think what you want ! 





geekette said:


> Fletch said:
> 
> 
> > He is a father and a man. He could have followed up, he could have talked to Sandusky, he could have spoken to the law, should I go on ? Just depends on priorities, his was football, most people, TUG not withstanding in lots of cases, it would have been the innocent child. I pity anyone who thinks thier resonsibility is less.
> ...


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## Talent312 (Jan 23, 2012)

Fletch said:


> ... Bosses are responsible for what people under them do. Your missing the BIG point, as a boss, if someone is using my locker room to rape small boys, yes, I might want to look further into it myself....
> 
> "Exactly how could he have prevented Sandusky from doing anything?"
> Really, geez, I dont know, how about firing him...



In your rush to judgment, like so many others, you get a failing grade on the facts. Emotional responses are usually not very responsible. Sandusky was not employed by the school or the football program at the time of the incident. Paterno was not his boss and thus, firing him was not an option.

The Facts: Sandusky's final game as a coach at Penn State was at  the 1999 Alamo 
Bowl. Penn State won 24–0. It wasn't until 2002 that Assistant Coach Mike McQueary walked in on Sandusky raping a 10 year old boy. The next day, McQueary reported the incident to Paterno, who then informed AD Tim Curley.

But I doubt that facts matter all that much to some.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 23, 2012)

I haven't changed my opinion about Joe Paterno's role in Jerry Sandusky's sickening activities one iota from that other thread.  Joe Paterno obviously had the power to do more than he did when he was first made aware of what was happening in his facilities (and, none of us knows when exactly that was.)  When I think about the Trustees trying to oust him as head football coach in 2004 and him being able to dismiss them so easily, I think it must have taken him only one sentence to force them to back off from trying to fire him:

"I will go public with what we ALL know."

That's all he had to say to protect his job and his friend, and I'm convinced he said it without a second thought.  That's how important the football program at Penn State was to him, how self-important he believed himself to be because of the accolades showered upon him by the community.  That's the kind of power he had and abused.  Jerry Sandusky's acts were criminal and despicable, but it was the cover-up that enabled him to perform those acts on so many young boys over so many years.  Those who participated in the cover-up are almost as responsible for the victims' distress as Jerry Sandusky is.  If we are supposed to idolize Joe Paterno for every good thing that ever came out of Penn State's football program under his tutelage, then we must also hold him ultimately responsible for every bad thing.  And the bad things that happened there could not have been any worse.

It's despicable to me that Joe Paterno is perceived to be a victim in all this.  There is nothing wrong with trying to analyze why any of the people involved in this situation performed the way they did, but not one of them should be excused from blame.  Not one.  And when it came to any- and everything connected to that football program, the buck stopped with Joe Paterno.

I feel terribly for his family having to grieve amongst the swirling controversy.  I'm sad that their world, everything they've ever known, has been turned upside down in the last six months or so.  But I don't believe that we all have a duty to not speak ill of the man now that he's gone.  Or maybe, I don't believe that such a duty can be said to be more important than the duty he had, and ignored, while he was alive.

Quite honestly, I don't suffer the slightest little bit of guilt at all over speaking ill of the dead men who covered up and perpetuated the similar scandal in the catholic church, and some of those men - pedophile or protector - were supposedly recipients of a higher calling.  I'm pretty sure I won't suffer any guilt over thinking badly of Joe Paterno until the day I die.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 23, 2012)

Talent312 said:


> In your rush to judgment, like so many others, you get a failing grade on the facts. Emotional responses are usually not very responsible. Sandusky was not employed by the school or the football program at the time of the incident. Paterno was not his boss and thus, firing him was not an option.
> 
> The Facts: Sandusky's final game as a coach at Penn State was at  the 1999 Alamo Bowl. Penn State won 24–0. It wasn't until 2002 that Assistant Coach Mike McQueary said he walked in on Sandusky anally raping a ten-year-old boy. The next day, McQueary reported the incident to Paterno, who informed AD Tim Curley.
> 
> But I doubt that facts matter all that much to some.



Sandusky had privileges long after his removal as a coach to use the facilities at Penn State.  If Joe Paterno had said the word, those privileges would have been revoked.


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## Elan (Jan 23, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> I haven't changed my opinion about Joe Paterno's role in Jerry Sandusky's sickening activities one iota from that other thread.  Joe Paterno obviously had the power to do more than he did when he was first made aware of what was happening in his facilities (and, none of us knows when exactly that was.)  When I think about the Trustees trying to oust him as head football coach in 2004 and him being able to dismiss them so easily, I think it must have taken him only one sentence to force them to back off from trying to fire him:
> 
> "I will go public with what we ALL know."
> 
> ...



  Pretty much sums up how I feel.  

  The fact that he's dead doesn't diminish the lack of basic human compassion that he demonstrated while he was alive.  He absolutely had the power to do more and he didn't.  His inaction will be his legacy.


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## rrlongwell (Jan 23, 2012)

I just heard on TV that Pennsylvania Govenor Tom Corbet (Former Attorney General for Pennsylvania) has ordered the State Flags to half mast in honor of Joe Paterno.  I think that just said it all.


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## jlf58 (Jan 23, 2012)

well said Sue 



SueDonJ said:


> I haven't changed my opinion about Joe Paterno's role in Jerry Sandusky's sickening activities one iota from that other thread.  Joe Paterno obviously had the power to do more than he did when he was first made aware of what was happening in his facilities (and, none of us knows when exactly that was.)  When I think about the Trustees trying to oust him as head football coach in 2004 and him being able to dismiss them so easily, I think it must have taken him only one sentence to force them to back off from trying to fire him:
> 
> "I will go public with what we ALL know."
> 
> ...


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## laurac260 (Jan 23, 2012)

<<<<Wow.  You haven't been around long.  I removed it since you were offended.  

I'm not ashamed of myself for sticking up for a dead man that is on this thread being crucified for crimes committed by another.  To me, that is the insensitive, vile and disgusting stuff going on here.  your opinion is obviously different.[/QUOTE]>>>

Geekette, Stick up for him all you want.  It's your choice of words that I found disgusting, especially in light of what happened .  I doubt I'm the only one who found your choice of words vile, disgusting, insensitive , crude.   I'll show complete decency and decorum for the deceased joe paterno.  Show some decency and decorum for the victims.  Were it not for the children who were molested, we wouldn't even be here talking about this.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 23, 2012)

rrlongwell said:


> I just heard on TV that Pennsylvania Governor Tom Corbet (Former Attorney General for Pennsylvania) has ordered the State Flags to half mast in honor of Joe Paterno.  I think that just said it all.



So often when scandals like this break, practically the only thing that every single person agrees upon is, "I just hope that we learn something from all this."

Nothing was learned here, nothing.  When the culture there is so tainted that state officials have determined that Joe Paterno's life is worth celebrating in the single most respectful manner that's normally reserved for only the most good and heroic among us, we have learned nothing.

If I lived in PA, my flag would not be at half-staff.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 23, 2012)

laurac260 said:


> Geekette, Stick up for him all you want.  It's your choice of words that I found disgusting, especially in light of what happened .  I doubt I'm the only one who found your choice of words vile, disgusting, insensitive , crude.   I'll show complete decency and decorum for the deceased joe paterno.  Show some decency and decorum for the victims.  Were it not for the children who were molested, we wouldn't even be here talking about this.



Laura, you might disagree.  But I think that when folks self-edit their own posts, it's only decent to edit yours where you copied them.  It might not change what either of you are thinking, but it still should be done.


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## laurac260 (Jan 23, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> Laura, you might disagree.  But I think that when folks self-edit their own posts, it's only decent to edit yours where you copied them.  It might not change what either of you are thinking, but it still should be done.


i have deleted my original post.  Thanks Sue.


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## AKE (Jan 23, 2012)

pedro47 said:


> R.I.P. to an outstanding man with strong conviction to fair play to all his students.
> 
> I can forgive.



And if it was your child or spouse or whoever?  There is NO forgiveness for people who stand by and watch children get molested.  Outstanding? you have got to be kidding or have blinders on.  He was of weak morale character, had no convictions except that football was ahead of everything and at the price of everything else.  It is interesting that even in prison child molesters are segregated from the rest of the inmates as they would never survive... there is even a code of ethics among murderers and other hard core criminals and people here try to brush it off as nothing more than a slight deviation.  I hope that the football program here, and in every other university where such actions were condoned be eliminated... and if the university doesn't survive because of a lack of donors then let it be a lesson for others.


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## rrlongwell (Jan 23, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> So often when scandals like this break, practically the only thing that every single person agrees upon is, "I just hope that we learn something from all this."
> 
> Nothing was learned here, nothing.  When the culture there is so tainted that state officials have determined that Joe Paterno's life is worth celebrating in the single most respectful manner that's normally reserved for only the most good and heroic among us, we have learned nothing.
> 
> If I lived in PA, my flag would not be at half-staff.



Nothing was learned may or may not be correct.  The fact of the matter, this scandle brought forth no evidence that I have heard reported that implicated Penn State's Football Program in illegal activities under State Law on this topic.  All reports I have heard indicated that the legally required reporting was done by the Active Football coaches for the relevant timeframes.  There is no significant dispute that Penn State is now a National if not International player in Education due in part to the work of the Penn State Football program.  

The fact of the matter is, according to news reports, that the Penn State University Board of Directors is undergoing dramtic changes not to mention that Penn State is sporting a new President.  I would not say that nothing was learned.


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## vacationhopeful (Jan 23, 2012)

I do not believe that a spectator event(s) should define a university. The Roman Empire had games and vast stadiums where "games" were held. Their empired collapsed, too.

I tended multiple colleges and taught at several junior colleges. I thought learning was in the classroom years ago; today, it seems to also be occurring in online computer sessions, too. What seems to occur at "games" are rituals ... beating of the chests, waving of pompoms, pounding of drums, emptying of kegs, painting of faces, etc.

All this for whose benefit? Educating our youth, developing a wonder drug, creating a better mouse trap, enriching our life, world peace?


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## geekette (Jan 23, 2012)

laurac260;1233579Geekette said:
			
		

> Yes, you are right, it was uncalled for, and I do apologize.
> 
> 
> > Were it not for the children who were molested, we wouldn't even be here talking about this[\quote]
> ...


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## geekette (Jan 23, 2012)

Fletch said:


> ... Your missing the BIG point, as a boss, if someone is using* my locker room *... Joe was either an idiot or a sly fox, you pick which but either makes him* look *pretty bad.



Are you saying that joe paterno owned or controlled all access to the locker room at all times, because I think that is incorrect.  Isn't that venue used for many events that are not PS football games?

Prove this, please.

And because he "looks" pretty bad, he must have done something wrong?  yikes.


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## geekette (Jan 23, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> So often when scandals like this break, practically the only thing that every single person agrees upon is, "I just hope that we learn something from all this."
> 
> Nothing was learned here, nothing.



Not true, Sue.  People are now vowing to stand up and do the right thing if they see something wrong.  That's a good thing.


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## geekette (Jan 23, 2012)

AKE said:


> ... There is NO forgiveness for people who stand by and watch children get molested.  ...



to whom are you referring??


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## geekette (Jan 23, 2012)

AKE said:


> ...It is interesting that even in prison child molesters are segregated from the rest of the inmates as they would never survive... there is even a code of ethics among murderers and other hard core criminals and* people here try to brush it off as nothing more than a slight deviation*.



again, to whom are you referring?


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## Passepartout (Jan 23, 2012)

People, c'mon here. This is a R.I.P. thread. JoePa was not convicted of anything. He lost his job and his life's work. His name will forever be linked with horrible events that he was not even witness to. There will be a time for recriminations.

We all feel strongly about this scandal, but please, put the court of TUG in recess. What is said here will have no bearing on the outcome.

Let the investigations continue and lead where they may. But for now anyway, allow his family to mourn his loss and honor his memory.

Peace be upon the mourners.

Jim


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## Talent312 (Jan 23, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> Sandusky had privileges long after his removal as a coach to use the facilities at Penn State.  If Joe Paterno had said the word, those privileges would have been revoked.



I had hoped this thread would not take this direction, but as it has.
So now that we know Paterno could not fire him, we are inventing magical powers. Cute.
He was barred from the lockerroom by the AD, which I think shows where that power lay.

Chew on his failure to use his superpowers if you must. The rest of us will let the dead rest in peace.


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## SunSand (Jan 23, 2012)

There is no more doubt, Joe Paterno has been judged.  He deserves to rest in peace.  The PSU President and his executive level of reports should be held accountable.  Joe is dead, leave him and his family alone.


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## gpurtz (Jan 23, 2012)

To those of you who would hang Joe Pa from the same gallows as Sandusky, nothing I write will change your opinion of him.  For those not so blinded by anger or hate, you might consider the following.  Joe Pa was almost universally loved by the men he coached.  Read what _they_ are saying about him.  Do they speak about how well he taught them to be football players or how well he taught them to be good, caring human beings?  Read the facts about the millions he contributed to charitable causes.  Read about the library that bears his name.  Read about his role in the growth of one of the finest public universities in the country.  Read about his and Sue's involvement in Special Olympics.  Every year Pennsylvania's Special Olympics holds its Summer Games at Penn State and every year the athletes are escorted into the stadium by football players.  Read about his always finding the time to support Penn State's THON (the largest student run philanthropy in the country) and making sure his players did the same.  I do believe Joe PA should have done more with the information McQueary gave to him.  In hindsight, so did Joe.  To those who would hang Joe PA with Sandusky, you're too late.  To those who refuse to ignore what Coach Paterno meant to his football players, the university he loved, the community in which he lived, his family and untold others, I grieve with you.


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## jlf58 (Jan 23, 2012)

great, not sure what this has to do with anything but thanks for that.





gpurtz said:


> To those of you who would hang Joe Pa from the same gallows as Sandusky, nothing I write will change your opinion of him.  For those not so blinded by anger or hate, you might consider the following.  Joe Pa was almost universally loved by the men he coached.  Read what _they_ are saying about him.  Do they speak about how well he taught them to be football players or how well he taught them to be good, caring human beings?  Read the facts about the millions he contributed to charitable causes.  Read about the library that bears his name.  Read about his role in the growth of one of the finest public universities in the country.  Read about his and Sue's involvement in Special Olympics.  Every year Pennsylvania's Special Olympics holds its Summer Games at Penn State and every year the athletes are escorted into the stadium by football players.  Read about his always finding the time to support Penn State's THON (the largest student run philanthropy in the country) and making sure his players did the same.  I do believe Joe PA should have done more with the information McQueary gave to him.  In hindsight, so did Joe.  To those who would hang Joe PA with Sandusky, you're too late.  To those who refuse to ignore what Coach Paterno meant to his football players, the university he loved, the community in which he lived, his family and untold others, I grieve with you.


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## paxsarah (Jan 23, 2012)

Fletch said:


> great, not sure what this has to do with anything but thanks for that.



This has _exactly_ to do with the initial post of this thread - it's a rest in peace thread for the recently deceased, in which people often remember positive contributions that person made to their community.

I would suggest that those wishing to debate the Sandusky scandal and Paterno's culpability in it, revive the thread that was created at the time that story broke. This thread was clearly not intended to be that, and I'm finding it surprisingly ugly. I really thought TUG was different.


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## Talent312 (Jan 23, 2012)

Fletch said:


> great, not sure what this has to do with anything but thanks for that.



As the OP, I assure you that gpurtz' post had everything to do with the topic I started.
I thank gpurtz for one of the more insightful posts I've read on the topic.


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## jlf58 (Jan 24, 2012)

Except that he was responing to the scandal part....Joes touching Bio doesn't change anything... 



Talent312 said:


> As the OP, I assure you that gpurtz' post had everything to do with the topic I started.
> I thank gpurtz for one of the more insightful posts I've read on the topic.


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## Linda74 (Jan 24, 2012)

Joepa did much for PSU.  As he said regarding the scandal, he should have done more.  I think it is tragic for all involved.


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## ace2000 (Jan 24, 2012)

I don't think there's anybody on this thread that doesn't believe that Paterno should have done more regarding the scandal.  However, that's over.

Now that the man is dead, isn't it time to reflect on the positives?  Everyone agrees, including Paterno, that the scandal was a tragedy.


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## AKE (Jan 24, 2012)

People who brush this off as nothing more than an irritation.  Obviously the university feels differently given the firings but it is too little and too late.  How many kids were supposedly molested?  Who nows but I would think that there is more than one based on what is being said in the press.


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## ace2000 (Jan 24, 2012)

AKE said:


> People who brush this off as nothing more than an irritation.


 
I don't think anyone is thinking it was just an irritation.  Paterno was not the one that committed the crime.  The school and Paterno have both paid a very steep price for the scandal.  Is that not enough?  What else do you suggest should be done?  Enlighten us please.


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## AKE (Jan 24, 2012)

Take him off the pedestal!


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## siesta (Jan 24, 2012)

AKE said:


> Take him off the pedestal!


 pretty sure they did. They removed his statue in front of the stadium, and took his name off the trophies.


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## rrlongwell (Jan 24, 2012)

siesta said:


> pretty sure they did. They removed his statue in front of the stadium, and took his name off the trophies.



The good news is the Statue is still up.


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## Talent312 (Jan 24, 2012)

siesta said:


> pretty sure they did. They removed his statue in front of the stadium, and took his name off the trophies.



Whose? ... Pretty sure the facts are different.







Per Yahoo:
How should Joe Paterno be remembered?
For his negligence in the abuse scandal... 21%
For his winningest football record... 79%
6,029 people have answered this question.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 24, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> I don't think anyone is thinking it was just an irritation.  Paterno was not the one that committed the crime.  The school and Paterno have both paid a very steep price for the scandal.  Is that not enough?  What else do you suggest should be done?  Enlighten us please.



IMO, what should happen is that Penn State's football program should be shut down and allowed to re-open only when every single paid position associated with it is filled by someone with no connection to Paterno, the college or the area.  Football programs have been severely sanctioned for far less grievous reasons than this one.

Scandals like this one that went on for years with multiple victims do not happen unless there is an attendant cover-up.  The day that McQueary saw Sandusky in the shower with a young boy was not the first day that suspicions arose about Sandusky.  Long before that episode he had been removed from his coaching position under questionable circumstances, yet was allowed privileges to continue using the facilities after his removal.  The Grand Jury report detailed many other signs going further back that were ignored or swept under the rug, and leads to the implication that victims were sacrificed at the expense of the football program at Penn State.

I think that it's impossible to separate Joe Paterno's two legacies - one being the positive contributions that he made over the years to the community, the college, and his players, the second being that he was the revered Head Football Coach during a long period when a pedophile was able to take advantage of his connections to the school, and the protection afforded him by the head coach, in order to molest young boys both at the facilities and away from them.  It will be very surprising if any obituary for Joe Paterno does not make mention of the scandal, because he was right smackdab in the middle of it and didn't do enough to stop it.  Neither did many people who were right there with him, but nobody is saying that Joe Paterno is the only person who was responsible.  He's one of the most powerful among them, but he's not the only one.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 24, 2012)

AKE said:


> Take him off the pedestal!



TUG really needs a "Like" button.


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## ace2000 (Jan 24, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> IMO, what should happen is that Penn State's football program should be shut down and allowed to re-open only when every single paid position associated with it is filled by someone with no connection to Paterno, the college or the area.  Football programs have been severely sanctioned for far less grievous reasons than this one.
> 
> Scandals like this one that went on for years with multiple victims do not happen unless there is an attendant cover-up.  The day that McQueary saw Sandusky in the shower with a young boy was not the first day that suspicions arose about Sandusky.  Long before that episode he had been removed from his coaching position under questionable circumstances, yet was allowed privileges to continue using the facilities after his removal.  The Grand Jury report detailed many other signs going further back that were ignored or swept under the rug, and leads to the implication that victims were sacrificed at the expense of the football program at Penn State.
> 
> I think that it's impossible to separate Joe Paterno's two legacies - one being the positive contributions that he made over the years to the community, the college, and his players, the second being that he was the revered Head Football Coach during a long period when a pedophile was able to take advantage of his connections to the school, and the protection afforded him by the head coach, in order to molest young boys both at the facilities and away from them.  It will be very surprising if any obituary for Joe Paterno does not make mention of the scandal, because he was right smackdab in the middle of it and didn't do enough to stop it.  Neither did many people who were right there with him, but nobody is saying that Joe Paterno is the only person who was responsible.  He's one of the most powerful among them, but he's not the only one.


 
Thanks for stating your side.  I respect your opinion and I think we all have a difference of opinion on how much punishment is necessary.  I feel that justice has already been served on Paterno and Penn State (aside from the legal liability that will be forthcoming).  They really have paid a very steep price.  

I can definitely understand why you feel that strongly.  We just disagree on what the correct level of punishment should be.


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## jlf58 (Jan 24, 2012)

Once again , great post. My main issue is he, like others in Penn State, were very well aware of what was going on but swept it under the rug to protect the football program, regardless of what happen to the kids. This is how sports and big buisness works in lots of casses, even in some religons. The man priority of everyone involved was the reputation of the football program.










m





SueDonJ said:


> IMO, what should happen is that Penn State's football program should be shut down and allowed to re-open only when every single paid position associated with it is filled by someone with no connection to Paterno, the college or the area.  Football programs have been severely sanctioned for far less grievous reasons than this one.
> 
> Scandals like this one that went on for years with multiple victims do not happen unless there is an attendant cover-up.  The day that McQueary saw Sandusky in the shower with a young boy was not the first day that suspicions arose about Sandusky.  Long before that episode he had been removed from his coaching position under questionable circumstances, yet was allowed privileges to continue using the facilities after his removal.  The Grand Jury report detailed many other signs going further back that were ignored or swept under the rug, and leads to the implication that victims were sacrificed at the expense of the football program at Penn State.
> 
> I think that it's impossible to separate Joe Paterno's two legacies - one being the positive contributions that he made over the years to the community, the college, and his players, the second being that he was the revered Head Football Coach during a long period when a pedophile was able to take advantage of his connections to the school, and the protection afforded him by the head coach, in order to molest young boys both at the facilities and away from them.  It will be very surprising if any obituary for Joe Paterno does not make mention of the scandal, because he was right smackdab in the middle of it and didn't do enough to stop it.  Neither did many people who were right there with him, but nobody is saying that Joe Paterno is the only person who was responsible.  He's one of the most powerful among them, but he's not the only one.


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## laura1957 (Jan 24, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> TUG really needs a "Like" button.



I have had that thought many times and never more than now!!

As the mother and the aunt of young women who were molested as pre-teens by someone very close to our family, I see how much and how long children suffer over this.  EVERYONE who has any idea that this could possibly be happening to a child should let everyone connected know - and keep telling them every single day until something is done about it.  Years after my daughter and niece were molested a fairly close acquaintance mentioned that she heard that he had molested someone years before but didnt want to cause trouble or hurt anyone.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 24, 2012)

You know, ordinarily I don't like to be thought of as someone who is disrespectful.  It's really bothering me that some people think I'm being deliberately disrespectful by mentioning the scandal and Joe Paterno's legacy in the same breath now that he's passed.

The pedophile priest scandal hit very close to home for me.  When it broke my family and most members of our parish learned that a formerly-beloved priest was a pedophile who victimized dear friends.  He was the youth pastor at my church, my confirmation instructor and a dear family confidant; in fact, we invited him back to serve at my mom's funeral mass after he'd been transferred from our home parish but before we knew his secret.  It hurts.  It hurts that he preyed upon us, but it hurts just as much that there were some members of the parish - lay people and clergy alike - who knew about him and didn't do what was necessary to stop him.  And if it hurts me this much, still, after all these years, I cannot imagine the hurt that his actual victims suffered then and still suffer now.

I can't think of him in only glowing terms any longer.  I can't separate the good that he did, and he absolutely did good, from the bad.  When he dies I will not be able to eulogize his goodness without mentioning his evil, because if I do that I will feel like I am continuing in some way the cover-up that existed, contributing to the pain that his actual victims still suffer.  I will be betraying them a second time.

I posted in this thread because I don't understand how after all that's been reported, anyone can think that Joe Paterno deserves uncontested accolades.  But I'm done now and will leave it for the rest of you to think whatever you need to think.


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## laurac260 (Jan 24, 2012)

Sue, I completely agree with you , and from what I've read of Joe Paterno, I think if he could speak to us now he'd agree with you too.  Beyond that, I think I'm done coming back to this thread.  





SueDonJ said:


> You know, ordinarily I don't like to be thought of as someone who is disrespectful.  It's really bothering me that some people think I'm being deliberately disrespectful by mentioning the scandal and Joe Paterno's legacy in the same breath now that he's passed.
> 
> The pedophile priest scandal hit very close to home for me.  When it broke my family and most members of our parish learned that a formerly-beloved priest was a pedophile who victimized dear friends.  He was the youth pastor at my church, my confirmation instructor and a dear family confidant; in fact, we invited him back to serve at my mom's funeral mass after he'd been transferred from our home parish but before we knew his secret.  It hurts.  It hurts that he preyed upon us, but it hurts just as much that there were some members of the parish - lay people and clergy alike - who knew about him and didn't do what was necessary to stop him.  And if it hurts me this much, still, after all these years, I cannot imagine the hurt that his actual victims suffered then and still suffer now.
> 
> ...


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## PigsDad (Jan 24, 2012)

Sue, I also agree with you.  I imagine that writing this post must have been difficult, but thanks for sharing.  

Kurt


SueDonJ said:


> You know, ordinarily I don't like to be thought of as someone who is disrespectful.  It's really bothering me that some people think I'm being deliberately disrespectful by mentioning the scandal and Joe Paterno's legacy in the same breath now that he's passed.
> 
> The pedophile priest scandal hit very close to home for me.  When it broke my family and most members of our parish learned that a formerly-beloved priest was a pedophile who victimized dear friends.  He was the youth pastor at my church, my confirmation instructor and a dear family confidant; in fact, we invited him back to serve at my mom's funeral mass after he'd been transferred from our home parish but before we knew his secret.  It hurts.  It hurts that he preyed upon us, but it hurts just as much that there were some members of the parish - lay people and clergy alike - who knew about him and didn't do what was necessary to stop him.  And if it hurts me this much, still, after all these years, I cannot imagine the hurt that his actual victims suffered then and still suffer now.
> 
> ...


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## Linda74 (Jan 24, 2012)

Agreed.  My daughter, son in law and thousands of other PSU graduates are recipients of all Joe Paterno did to encourage high academic standards at the university.  As one of the students wrote..."We are because you were, Joepa"


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## jlf58 (Jan 24, 2012)

Should have been 

"We are because you were, to bad you didn't,  Joepa



Linda74 said:


> Agreed.  My daughter, son in law and thousands of other PSU graduates are recipients of all Joe Paterno did to encourage high academic standards at the university.  As one of the students wrote..."We are because you were, Joepa"


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## pjrose (Jan 24, 2012)

Passepartout said:


> People, c'mon here. This is a R.I.P. thread. JoePa was not convicted of anything. He lost his job and his life's work. His name will forever be linked with horrible events that he was not even witness to. There will be a time for recriminations.
> 
> We all feel strongly about this scandal, but please, put the court of TUG in recess. What is said here will have no bearing on the outcome.
> 
> ...



With you, Jim.


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## paxsarah (Jan 24, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> You know, ordinarily I don't like to be thought of as someone who is disrespectful.  It's really bothering me that some people think I'm being deliberately disrespectful by mentioning the scandal and Joe Paterno's legacy in the same breath now that he's passed.
> 
> The pedophile priest scandal hit very close to home for me.  When it broke my family and most members of our parish learned that a formerly-beloved priest was a pedophile who victimized dear friends.  He was the youth pastor at my church, my confirmation instructor and a dear family confidant; in fact, we invited him back to serve at my mom's funeral mass after he'd been transferred from our home parish but before we knew his secret.  It hurts.  It hurts that he preyed upon us, but it hurts just as much that there were some members of the parish - lay people and clergy alike - who knew about him and didn't do what was necessary to stop him.  And if it hurts me this much, still, after all these years, I cannot imagine the hurt that his actual victims suffered then and still suffer now.
> 
> ...



SueDonJ, thank you for posting your thoughts. I don't think anyone can think of Joe Paterno's passing without thinking of his involvement in the scandal, and what more he could have done - and I do believe he could have done more. I get the impression from a few others in this thread, though, that any good he may have done in his decades as a coach should be completely negated by his failure to act strongly enough at a critical moment to protect Sandusky's victims. He doesn't deserve uncontested accolades, but neither does he deserve uncontested condemnation (and I'm not saying this was coming from you) so soon after his passing.


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## Talent312 (Jan 24, 2012)

For those who would honor the dead...

STATE COLLEGE, Pa. (AP) — Decked out in Penn State hats and jackets, students and townspeople stood in a line more than a quarter-mile long Tuesday to pay their respects to Joe Paterno, the coach who for nearly a half century was the face of their university. Mourners waited for hours along a main campus artery for the chance to file past Paterno's closed brown casket at the campus spiritual center during a public viewing session. Some departed crying. All were moved.


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## laurac260 (Jan 24, 2012)

Talent312 said:


> For those who would honor the dead...
> 
> STATE COLLEGE, Pa. (AP) — Decked out in Penn State hats and jackets, students and townspeople stood in a line more than a quarter-mile long Tuesday to pay their respects to Joe Paterno, the coach who for nearly a half century was the face of their university. Mourners waited for hours along a main campus artery for the chance to file past Paterno's closed brown casket at the campus spiritual center during a public viewing session. Some departed crying. All were moved.



This is not meant toward you the poster of this message, but I find it very disrespectful and in horrible taste to photograph someone's coffin, and then post it on the Internet. It seems we've lost all sense of decorum .


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## Talent312 (Jan 24, 2012)

laurac260 said:


> This is not meant toward you the poster of this message, but I find it very disrespectful and in horrible taste to photograph someone's coffin, and then post it on the Internet. It seems we've lost all sense of decorum .



I appreciate that. It can be an invasion of privacy to be sure, but I would note, however, that the public broadcast of famous figures lying in repose, as the family visits, has become routine. The first I remember was JFK, more recently Sen. Robert Byrd (W.Va.), and of course, there was Diana, Princess of Wales.


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## paxsarah (Jan 24, 2012)

Out of genuine curiosity, is it the internet per se, or any photograph that would be the issue? I would be offended if an unauthorized photograph leaked from the private family service, but I'll admit that a journalistic photo of the casket at the public viewing - posted on an internet news site or published in a newspaper - doesn't ping my radar.


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## laurac260 (Jan 25, 2012)

paxsarah said:


> Out of genuine curiosity, is it the internet per se, or any photograph that would be the issue? I would be offended if an unauthorized photograph leaked from the private family service, but I'll admit that a journalistic photo of the casket at the public viewing - posted on an internet news site or published in a newspaper - doesn't ping my radar.


I guess it is this:  I cannot imagine ever wanting a photograph of my dearly departed in their casket, either open or closed.  However if some people find it comforting to have a photo of dead dad, that's their choice.   I find it at least, odd.

Taking a photo of someone who isn't one of YOUR dearly departed is to me, just wrong.

And putting the photo in print or internet for all to see is completely lacking in decency.  

Again, this is said in generalizations not intended toward anyone here, and of course these are merely my opinions.  So, moral of the story here, if you come to my funeral, please leave your kodak at home!


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## ace2000 (Jan 25, 2012)

In this instance, the family must have agreed to a public funeral.  If that's the case, and the press posted pictures, it doesn't seem to be a major issue.


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## siesta (Jan 25, 2012)

*I stand corrected*

In November, many reports stated they planned to take the statue down, but it seems as if that planned has either stalled or been scrapped. If you google "joe paterno statue taken down" you will see that I didnt come up with this from thin air, however, sorry for the misinformation as I havent followed this story much. We will see how long it stands.


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## SunSand (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm still active in the major DI college athletic environment.  I've interviewed Joe Paterno, and many other DI coaches in my day.  Think what you want, but in my opinion, Paterno was clearly one of the greats.  Many of today's DI coaches are an embarrassment. It is so sad to see Joe Paterno's body of work marginalized by a (perceived or real) single laps in judgement.


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## rrlongwell (Jan 25, 2012)

siesta said:


> In November, many reports stated they planned to take the statue down, but it seems as if that planned has either stalled or been scrapped. If you google "joe paterno statue taken down" you will see that I didnt come up with this from thin air, however, sorry for the misinformation as I havent followed this story much. We will see how long it stands.



My guess forever more.  I do not doubt what you heard.  I heard on the Penn State grapevine that there was a little problem with taking it down.  A whole bunch of people were planning to surround it to prevent that from happening.  Do not know if that is true or not.


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## am1 (Jan 25, 2012)

SunSand said:


> I'm still active in the major DI college athletic environment.  I've interviewed Joe Paterno, and many other DI coaches in my day.  Think what you want, but in my opinion, Paterno was clearly one of the greats.  Many of today's DI coaches are an embarrassment. It is so sad to see Joe Paterno's body of work marginalized by a (perceived or real) single laps in judgement.



That is what happens.  Wins and losses and all the good done off the field takes a back seat to him not doing enough to stop what was going on.

I feel the Penn State students and supporters on here and elsewhere have been making this worse by defending him so much.  They make t seem like what happened does not matter.


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## Talent312 (Jan 25, 2012)

am1 said:


> I feel the Penn State students and supporters on here and elsewhere have been making this worse by defending him so much.  They make it seem like what happened does not matter.



Nice to see the preface, "I feel," since many of us feel differently. I for one, do not _feel_ that it mimimizes anything about what happened, as that would be quite impossible, nor do I begrudge anyone in the Penn State community choosing to pay respects for his life's work. If anything is being minimized, its that the true villan in all this is Sandusky.


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## geekette (Jan 26, 2012)

Talent312 said:


> If anything is being minimized, its that the true villan in all this is Sandusky.



Thank you.  

So far as any of us know, Paterno committed no crimes and it is bewildering to me that this thread is full of such venom towards him.  HE DIDN'T DO IT.

And I, personally, have not encountered any solid PROOF that he could have stopped it.  He reported up the chain, that's what he was supposed to do, let the cops and campus authorities deal with it.  they did not.  and that is Joe's fault how???  

If you want to lay blame at a doorstep, start with the perpetrator, and move on to the cops that didn't arrest him.  

Stomping on joepa's legacy solves nothing but heaps dung in the wrong direction.


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## ace2000 (Jan 26, 2012)

geekette said:


> Thank you.
> 
> So far as any of us know, Paterno committed no crimes and it is bewildering to me that this thread is full of such venom towards him.  HE DIDN'T DO IT.
> 
> ...


 
Paterno definitely was in the wrong to a certain degree.  He knew that Sandusky was a sex offender, based on McQuery telling him what he saw.  He also knew that the incident was not reported to the local police.   He knew that Sandusky continued to use the school athletic facilities.  Even Paterno has admitted that he was in the wrong during recent interviews.

However, for me, the issue is how much punishment does the man deserve?  I feel Paterno has already received enough punishment for the error of his ways, regarding Sandusky.  Some on here feel he deserves far greater punishment.  And you know, I can understand that mindset.  Don't agree, but I am understanding.

So again, the disagreement on this thread seems to be regarding what level of punishment he deserves.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 26, 2012)

(Are we now back to the scandal as the topic, and not the question of whether it's respectful to speak ill of the dead?)

I think maybe some people don't realize that the incident McQueary witnessed in 2002 was not the first episode involving Sandusky and a young boy in the football showers at Penn State.  There was a lengthy police report compiled after similar allegations in 1998, following which Sandusky was encouraged by Joe Paterno to retire.  As part of his retirement package in 1999 he was allowed extensive privileges to the campus and football facilities, and in fact kept an office there in which he was seen only a week before his arrest in November, 2011.

IMO, it doesn't really matter that Joe Paterno did as much as he was legally required to do back in 2002, when he definitely knew enough to know that Sandusky was a sicko who needed to be stopped.  Paterno obviously had no problem at all with Sandusky continuing his privileged access to the football facilities from 1999 all the way up through 2011.  ANY head football coach has the clout to run the football facilities as he sees fit, and certainly Joe Paterno had more than most because of the millions of dollars in revenue that his program brought in.  If he didn't want Sandusky around, he wouldn't be around.

So whether Joe Paterno knew enough back in 1998 or didn't learn enough until 2002, at some point long before Sandusky was arrested in 2011 Joe Paterno definitely knew enough to do something more than he did.

The reality is, Joe Paterno was symbolically put up on a pedestal long ago and there are now many who don't want to consider even the slightest possibility that he may have done (or not done) something that calls into question the worthiness of that stature.  Is it fair that his involvement in the scandal appears to be a bigger story than the allegations against Sandusky?  No, of course not.  But that's how it goes - "the higher you climb, the further you fall."  It doesn't mean that folks are unfairly blaming Paterno for Sandusky's transgressions; Sandusky shoulders that alone.


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## ace2000 (Jan 26, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> So whether Joe Paterno knew enough back in 1998 or didn't learn enough until 2002, at some point long before Sandusky was arrested in 2011 Joe Paterno definitely knew enough to do something more than he did.


 
I don't think anyone on this thread disagrees with this point you (and others) have continued to make through this thread.  And as I've mentioned, even Paterno confessed that he should have done more.  So, now the disagreement comes down to... what else should be done?   I say Paterno has suffered enough and I know you and some others say more punishment needs to be given to Paterno and the school.  i.e. tear down the statue, etc.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 26, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> I don't think anyone on this thread disagrees with this point you (and others) have continued to make through this thread.  And as I've mentioned, even Paterno confessed that he should have done more.  So, now the disagreement comes down to... what else should be done?   I say Paterno has suffered enough and I know you and some others say more punishment needs to be given to Paterno and the school.  i.e. tear down the statue, etc.



While "what else should be done" is a valid question, IMO it doesn't all simply boil down to any related court proceedings and/or what punishment should be handed down.  It's imperative that the culture surrounding the situation be completely analyzed so that there is a thorough understanding of how and why scandals like this happen the way they do, and why the cover-ups attendant with them are as damaging as the actual crimes.  Closing the book on Paterno because he was fired, or because he's now passed, is akin to sweeping remnants under the rug.  There's been too much of that already.  

I actually think the statue should remain.  Paterno is a football legend and the statue appears to be appropriate - from what I can tell it's him in his coach's garb leading the team behind him.  Seems fitting.   

It also seems fitting that Paterno's name was removed from the Big Ten Conference trophy, because as the commissioner said, "The trophy and its namesake are intended to be celebratory and aspirational, not controversial." 

It gets murky for me when the praise for his entire life's work doesn't seem to be tempered with the appropriate sentiment for his self-acknowledged involvement in the scandal.  Experts who have studied similar situations all agree that the cover-up contributes to the victims' distress almost as much as the physical crimes, and we do a disservice to the victims when we separate praise of Paterno from criticism of him.  He deserves both, as do many others who also knew what he knew.  Reading back through this thread, I honestly find Pedro47's "I can forgive" to be the most disrespectful comment.  It's not for us to forgive - only the victims (and God, if you're a believer) can make that determination.


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## pjrose (Jan 26, 2012)

If the Sandusky scandal hadn't become widely known this year, if Joe Paterno had finished the season, announced his illness and possibly retirement, and died, this would be a very different conversation.  

Then if, say a few months or years later, we found out about the Sandusky scandal and Paterno's (and others', including Curley's and Schultz') lack of doing as much as they could have, I wonder what we'd be saying now.  

Would Joe Paterno be discussed as having any more blame for not doing enough than the others who apparently knew?  Would the higher-ups to whom it was reported and who failed to take action be more of our focus? Would this conversation be primarily about Sandusky and other predators who have access to youngsters, or would it be primarily about Joe Paterno?  

I'm thinking the conversation would have focused more on Sandusky and predators, and on Curley and Schultz, to whom Paterno did report the incident, but perhaps since Paterno's name is well known and theirs aren't, maybe not.  

Obviously "If" isn't what happened.....just pondering.


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## Patri (Jan 26, 2012)

Very good point.


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## gpurtz (Jan 26, 2012)

There wasn't enough evidence to prosecute Sandusky in 1998.  So Joe PA should have prosecuted him?  As for 2002, that horse has been beaten enough!
However, before further impugning Coach Paterno, you may wish to read Sally Jenkins' Washington Post interview and the video clips accompanying same.  Also, you might take a look at Phil Knight's tribute at today's memorial.  In fact, look at the entire memorial service and then come back here and tell us that your opinion of Joe PA did not change one iota.  Some of you will make the Sandusky affair the major theme of your term paper about Joe PA's life.  In my paper, it will be a footnote!  Because to me, that is where it belongs!


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## AKE (Jan 26, 2012)

Now if it was your child who had been molested I would think that you would be singing a different tune, starting with hiring the best attorney that money could afford and then "suing everyone and his brother".  Unless you yourself have been the victim of such an assult, or the parent of a child of such an assult, I don't think you (or myself having never been in either position) are qualified to make a judgement in that only a footnote is required.  As a parent however I know what I would have done had I been in Paterno's shoes (and that is doing everything in my power to make sure that the molesting stopped and that the legal system took over.  A discussion with the university president or a call to the media, even in 2002, would have been a good place to start).


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## SueDonJ (Jan 26, 2012)

pjrose said:


> If the Sandusky scandal hadn't become widely known this year, if Joe Paterno had finished the season, announced his illness and possibly retirement, and died, this would be a very different conversation.
> 
> Then if, say a few months or years later, we found out about the Sandusky scandal and Paterno's (and others', including Curley's and Schultz') lack of doing as much as they could have, I wonder what we'd be saying now.
> 
> ...



Good question.  When I first heard it reported I thought immediately, "wonder how much Joe Paterno knew?"  Could be that was the slant already in the report I'd heard, or it could be that was my natural reaction - I honestly don't remember.  But I don't think that whether Joe Paterno was alive or dead at the time the story broke makes a significant difference (except maybe to the victims*) - he was the Head Coach at Penn State at the time the events took place there, so naturally there would be questions surrounding his involvement or lack of.

I still have a lot of questions about how things transpired over the years, and honestly don't understand why people want to continue to sweep this under the rug instead of exposing it completely.  If there were no problems with Sandusky's coaching ability, why all of a sudden in 1999 - following a police investigation in 1998 which supposedly did not yield enough info to prosecute him - did Joe Paterno find it necessary to "encourage" Sandusky to resign from his coaching position?  If Sandusky's involvement with The Second Mile, which he founded in 1977, wasn't a concern during all the years he was on the coaching staff, why did Paterno use it as the reason he "encouraged" Sandusky to retire in 1999?  Why upon his resignation was Sandusky bestowed "coach emeritus" status and allowed continued access to the facilities?  Why was he not highly recommended to other college football programs, when his age and his on-field resume made him a prime candidate for a head coach position elsewhere?  Why did the people in that football program as well as throughout the community not see anything wrong with, or deliberately turn blind eyes to, him bringing young boys with him to practically every event - including Penn State football events - during which overnight visits the young boys stayed in his hotel rooms?  Why after the 2002 allegations was he told only that he could not bring young boys to the facilities anymore, instead of more strongly reprimanded?  If they knew enough to keep young boys away from Sandusky then, WHY in God's name didn't ANYONE do anything more to stop the monster?  Why why why ... there are so many questions that remain, many that will never be answered, but it's so unfair to the victims to not at least try.

The reason I believe that Joe Paterno's involvement, and complicity if that's what it actually turns out to be, is so much more disturbing than anyone else's is because Joe Paterno was the head of the football program.  By virtue of both his title and the reverence bestowed upon him by the community, he had the influence to sway the decisions of the Board of Trustees.  Evidence for that is in the fact that they tried to remove him as Head Coach in 2004 but he was able to easily dismiss their actions.  Head Coaching positions have inherent power; Joe Paterno had more than most because of his legacy, the support he had in the community, and the millions of dollars his program brought to the university.  But with that power comes great responsibility - not only did he not live up to it, from some appearances he actually sacrificed it along with the victims for the sake of the football program.

* I wonder what Sandusky's victims would think of your question.  Going back to the pedophile priest scandal in Boston, several of the principal members of the archdiocese who were implicated in the cover-up pre-deceased the exposure.  The victims then said that they felt justice was incomplete and forever would be, because when those people died they were celebrated as good men without anyone acknowledging publicly anything different.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 26, 2012)

gpurtz said:


> There wasn't enough evidence to prosecute Sandusky in 1998.  So Joe PA should have prosecuted him?  As for 2002, that horse has been beaten enough!
> However, before further impugning Coach Paterno, you may wish to read Sally Jenkins' Washington Post interview and the video clips accompanying same.  Also, you might take a look at Phil Knight's tribute at today's memorial.  In fact, look at the entire memorial service and then come back here and tell us that your opinion of Joe PA did not change one iota.  Some of you will make the Sandusky affair the major theme of your term paper about Joe PA's life.  In my paper, it will be a footnote!  Because to me, that is where it belongs!



For every glowing report from people of influence about Joe Paterno that you can produce, I can produce a scathing report from someone with just as much influence.  There is no black and white here, no absolute wrong or right.  You're entitled to think of the "Sandusky affair" as a footnote to Joe Paterno's memoir.  I'm entitled, also, to consider it as an equal factor to any other aspect of his life's work.

But I'll ask you, too - do you think Sandusky's victims think that Paterno's involvement is a footnote in the affair?


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## pjrose (Jan 26, 2012)

Susan - I don't disagree with what you say. Good point asterisked above.  

But I'll just say RIP, Joe.


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## gpurtz (Jan 26, 2012)

Susan, if you look at this situation through the eyes of the victims or their families, then anyone who had any inkling of what Sandusky was doing should be blamed for not doing more.  If you want to include Coach Paterno in that group, that is fine.  But I am mindful of the benefit of hindsight.  Where you and I differ is that I am not willing to allow this assignation of blame to so distort my view of Joe Paterno's life and accomplishments that I can no longer see the essence of a wonderful human being.  This is my last post on this topic as it is time to let it and Joe PA rest in peace!


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## geekette (Jan 26, 2012)

ace2000;1234833[B said:
			
		

> ]Paterno definitely was in the wrong to a certain degree.  He knew that Sandusky was a sex offender, based on McQuery telling him what he saw.  He also knew that the incident was not reported to the local police.   [/B]He knew that Sandusky continued to use the school athletic facilities.  Even Paterno has admitted that he was in the wrong during recent interviews.
> 
> However, for me, the issue is how much punishment does the man deserve?  I feel Paterno has already received enough punishment for the error of his ways, regarding Sandusky.  Some on here feel he deserves far greater punishment.  And you know, I can understand that mindset.  Don't agree, but I am understanding.
> 
> So again, the disagreement on this thread seems to be regarding what level of punishment he deserves.



Paterno knew nothing if he only knew what was told to him.  That is hearsay.  I was under the impression that the campus authorities were doubly the local police?  How did he know/why would they tell him anything about their investigation?

Yeah, I'm going to defend him for a bit.  

please someone, I would like a link to where Joe says he could have done more. I need context, I need quotes and video if it's there.  Because right now, that is hearsay to me.  

I am not certain what joe knew when. 

And I do agree with you that the disagreement seems to be about how much blame he deserves, but I am not there yet.

I am not so inclined to believe common rhetoric, so to me, the blame is on Sandusky himself, until I see that those who could stop him, did not.  and I do not believe that the buck stops with paterno.


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## ace2000 (Jan 26, 2012)

geekette said:


> please someone, I would like a link to where Joe says he could have done more. I need context, I need quotes and video if it's there.  Because right now, that is hearsay to me.



Well, to start here's your link below...  and the rest of your post just proves you really have no clue what you're talking about.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/01/14/paterno-interview-wish-had-done-more/


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## Talent312 (Jan 27, 2012)

It was Nike founder and CEO Phil Knight who broke the dam [at the memorial service], defending Paterno's handling of child-sex allegations that were leveled against a former coaching assistant. "If there is a villain in this tragedy, it lies in that investigation and not in Joe Paterno's response," Knight said.
------------------------
BTW, know who the Board of Trustee's attorney is?  Lanny Davis, who defended Clinton from Ken Starr's investigation. Fitting, somehow.


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## ksqdomer (Jan 27, 2012)

Talent312 said:


> It was Nike founder and CEO Phil Knight who broke the dam [at the memorial service], defending Paterno's handling of child-sex allegations that were leveled against a former coaching assistant. "If there is a villain in this tragedy, it lies in that investigation and not in Joe Paterno's response," Knight said.
> ------------------------
> BTW, know who the Board of Trustee's attorney is?  Lanny Davis, who defended Clinton from Ken Starr's investigation. Fitting, somehow.



Interestingly, Knight's name is the only one ever to appear on a Penn State jersey, front or back.


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## jlf58 (Jan 27, 2012)

Thats just plain stupid.
A co-worker calls you on the phone, your daughter was just hit by a car in town. Is you first thought ? it's just hearsy, I will wait to see if she calls me. AHH no, you react..........
Boys getting raped in your lockeroom, hearsay or not, you react.  Lets be clear one last time, HE WAS PROTECTING HIS FOOTBALL PROGRAM instead of the boys 



geekette said:


> Paterno knew nothing if he only knew what was told to him.  That is hearsay.  .


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## geekette (Jan 27, 2012)

Fletch said:


> Thats just plain stupid.
> A co-worker calls you on the phone, your daughter was just hit by a car in town. Is you first thought ? it's just hearsy, I will wait to see if she calls me. AHH no, you react..........
> Boys getting raped in your lockeroom, hearsay or not, you react.  Lets be clear one last time, HE WAS PROTECTING HIS FOOTBALL PROGRAM instead of the boys



Now you're being abusive.

"YOUR" lockerroom?  PennSt's lockerroom.  

It's an amazing ability you have to "just know" the thoughts and motivations of otehrs.


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## geekette (Jan 27, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> Well, to start here's your link below...  and the rest of your post just proves you really have no clue what you're talking about.
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/01/14/paterno-interview-wish-had-done-more/



well thank you.  And you have a blissfully informed day also!

I've been asking for facts, not attempting to portray my opinions as facts.  Fox News?  Quotes out of context from another interview...  

This link is rather consistent with what I have been saying.  he turned it over to those who were in a position to stop it.  Didn't know about all of it.

Please prove that I have no clue what i'm talking about??  I'm not seeing it.


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## ace2000 (Jan 27, 2012)

geekette said:


> Paterno knew nothing if he only knew what was told to him.  That is hearsay.  I was under the impression that the campus authorities were doubly the local police?  How did he know/why would they tell him anything about their investigation?
> 
> Yeah, I'm going to defend him for a bit.
> 
> ...


 


geekette said:


> well thank you.  And you have a blissfully informed day also!
> 
> I've been asking for facts, not attempting to portray my opinions as facts.  Fox News?  Quotes out of context from another interview...
> 
> ...


 
The story on the Fox News link referenced an interview from the Washington Post.  What was taken out of context?  I think it's very clear Paterno stated that he wished he would have done more.

You say "Paterno knew nothing"... actually Paterno knew what he heard in graphic detail from McQueary, whom he later hired as an assistant coach. 

You ask... could Paterno have "stopped him"... the answer is yes.  At the least, Paterno knew, even after the incident, that Sandusky got off the hook because he was visible around the Penn St. campus and continued to use the facilities and attend games and practices for many years.  Paterno could have done much more, as he clearly admitted.

The problem I personally have with your post, is that you appear to be saying that unless there was video proof or that Paterno had seen the incident himself, that he had no idea about what was going on.  That presumption is totally ridiculous.  

Also, you really need to consider the effects of your words and mindset on people that have been involved in sexual assault type incidents, or have friends or family members that have been victims. 

Again, for me personally, I feel Paterno and school have received their justice in the matter.  They both have already paid a heavy price.  Besides the public disgrace, the school will have to face the legal issues involved for years in the future.


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## geekette (Jan 27, 2012)

Those that want to call me clueless or stupid or whatnot, fine, that doesn't bother me, but it sure isn't going to change my mind, either.  Provide some proof and maybe I'll see things differently.  

one thing no one has mentioned - where were the parents?  where were the guardians of these boys??  I don't see how a college football coach is more culpable than adults these non-college attending kids would have seen daily.

If anyone should have known something was wrong, it would be those closest to the victims.  where are they and why didn't they know?  why didn't they act to protect the children?

if Sand got his victims from the camp, what about the other adults involved with that organization?  how did they not know?  why did they not act?  How is penn st more culpable than his hunting grounds?

I cannot lay this at JoePa's doorstep.  I simply cannot.  Those of you that want an easy target, a known villain, go ahead and blame Paterno.  it's misplaced, but if that makes you feel better for the victims,that's fine.  But let's not forget that the molester is still alive.  and not in jail.


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## Elan (Jan 27, 2012)

geekette said:


> well thank you.  And you have a blissfully informed day also!
> 
> I've been asking for facts, not attempting to portray my opinions as facts.  Fox News?  Quotes out of context from another interview...
> 
> ...



  It's not that you have no clue what you're talking about, it's that you aren't making the same presumptions that others are making.  I think most _presume_ that there was another reason that Sandusky "retired" when he did.  He was in the prime of his career, and by most accounts was the "coach in waiting" at PSU.  I think most _presume_ that McQueary didn't make up the shower story.  I think most _presume_ that JoePa was easily the most powerful man on Penn State's campus.  I think most _presume_ that JoePa had the power to do most anything he wanted within the confines of the university, including the power to insist on a thorough investigation of Sandusky's actions, and the ability to dictate than Sandusky never set foot on university property again.  

  Are these reasonable presumptions?  That's up to you to decide.  If one makes these presumptions, then it's pretty easy to conclude that JoePa didn't hold up to his moral obligations.  If one doesn't make these presumptions (Sandusky legitimately retired, McQueary's allegations were simply hearsay, JoePa was "just a football coach" and it's not a football coach's responsibility to investigate criminal activity, etc), then it's reasonable to conclude that he fulfilled his legal obligation.  

  It really comes down to what presumptions one is willing to make based on the info at hand.


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## geekette (Jan 27, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> also, you really need to consider the effects of your words and mindset on people that have been involved in sexual assault type incidents, or have friends or family members that have been victims.



No, I really don't.  This is an RIP Joe Paterno thread.  If people are free to toss around nasty words concerning him, condemn the dead for crimes of another, call me clueless, etc., I really don't see that my words NOR MINDSET are the problem here.  I've been convicted right along with Joe.

your opinion clearly varies.  and I get that people disagree with me, but that doesn't make me wrong, and it does not obligate me to stop stating my opinion.  you don't know me, you don't know my family.  Maybe I have a relative that was falsely accused of heinous crimes committed by another and it ruined his life.  Victims are damaged, regardless, but hanging an innocent man just compounds the injustice.

If molestion victims want to read an RIP thread that has become contentious and they are victims, they expose themselves to upset.  It is not my obligation to protect them.  Don't read it if it's upsetting.  If they hate JoePa, why are they even in the RIP JoePa thread?


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## ace2000 (Jan 27, 2012)

geekette said:


> one thing no one has mentioned - where were the parents?  where were the guardians of these boys??  I don't see how a college football coach is more culpable than adults these non-college attending kids would have seen daily.


 
Again, proof that you aren't informed.  Sandusky's foundation dealt with 'at risk' kids.  These are kids that generally don't have much parental involvement.  Probably the perfect victims in Sandusky's eyes.

Did you not hear anything about the previous incident in 1999?  The mother of a victim informed the police about that matter.


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## geekette (Jan 27, 2012)

Elan said:


> It's not that you have no clue what you're talking about, it's that you aren't making the same presumptions that others are making.  ....  It really comes down to what presumptions one is willing to make based on the info at hand.



Thank you.  I appreciate your seeing the gap.

I do admit to not being completely up on every FACTUAL element and likely am not in possession of ALL FACTS (partially because I believe there are very few FACTS available to us).  Just cuz somethign is on the internet does not make it true so I will question things and seek The Truth.  Fragments of quotes allegedly taken from another interview?  no, I don't trust that.  context matters.

And I happen to think of Fox as fake news.  just my opinion that I am willing to be bashed for.


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## geekette (Jan 27, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> Again, proof that you aren't informed.  Sandusky's foundation dealt with 'at risk' kids.  These are kids that generally don't have much parental involvement.  Probably the perfect victims in Sandusky's eyes.
> 
> Did you not hear anything about the previous incident in 1999?  The mother of a victim informed the police about that matter.



So these kids had no homes, no guardians?  They, what, took up residence in Sandy's home or lived at Penn St?  Did JoePa adopt them and that's why he's culpable?

I knew they were at risk kids, sure, but they generally live SOMEWHERE and have adults.

And what happened with that 99 incident?  Did Joe Paterno get the investigation squashed?  Did the police ask Joe to intervene and he refused?  Did the mother know that joe knew?  

tie it to joe for me.


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## ace2000 (Jan 27, 2012)

geekette said:


> Thank you.  I appreciate your seeing the gap.
> 
> And I happen to think of Fox as fake news.  just my opinion that I am willing to be bashed for.


 
I hope you don't take this as a personal attack, because I really do like to hear all sides on an issue.  But, I feel that you believe what you want to believe.  

Look for another reputable source on the Paterno interview on Google.  It appears that you don't want to take the time to be informed.


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## geekette (Jan 27, 2012)

ace2000 said:


> I hope you don't take this as a personal attack, because I really do like to hear all sides on an issue.  But, I feel that you believe what you want to believe.
> 
> Look for another reputable source on the Paterno interview on Google.  It appears that you don't want to take the time to be informed.



Nope, not at all, you are right, and your saying this is not a personal attack.   I'm believing what I want to believe, which is only what has been proven.  That's pretty much always going to be my choice as I don't thrown in on witch hunts or herd think.  I'm not going to condemn Joe Paterno because others say he should be condemned nor because it will make other victims feel better.

It takes time to hunt down facts.  I'm asking for others to provide their sources.  I'll believe a fact.  There is a lot of belief on this thread being posted to be factual information and I'm not going to just buy it.  

A link that references something else and provides quotes to it without the full quote, like, the actual quote of the question, is not proof to me.  It just isn't.  The WP interview, I'll go seek that out.  Not right now, but it may hold the info I seek.  I appreciate the tip.

But, honestly, the whole thing is so heinous and disgusting, I did not go hunt down all the facts because it's disturbing.  But I think it can be agreed that others have input info on this thread that is opinion and not fact.  Let's not pretend that I am the only one not in possession of all the facts.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 27, 2012)

geekette said:


> ... But, honestly, the whole thing is so heinous and disgusting, I did not go hunt down all the facts because it's disturbing.  But I think it can be agreed that others have input info on this thread that is opinion and not fact.  Let's not pretend that I am the only one not in possession of all the facts.



I don't know if you've read the Grand Jury report or not, but at this point it is just about the only thing that contains what can pass as facts.  It's at the link if you want to be more informed about what's leading those of us who have made presumptions, to those presumptions.

I'll readily admit that my opinion is skewed by my knowledge of the similar pedophile priest scandal, and perhaps I'm biased against Joe Paterno in this case because I equate him to powerful men who did nothing to expose the priests for what they were, either.  The opinion I have that any Head Coach position of a football program has inherent power is from years of being a sports junkie.  With this particular head coach, I just don't believe that you can say on the one hand that Joe Paterno didn't have the power to stop Sandusky, when on the other it is commonly acknowledged that he had the power to stop the Penn State Board of Trustees from firing him.  He either had power and influence over the university's hierarchy or he didn't, and the little bit of evidence out there makes it appear that he did.

I'm in complete agreement with you that there are still too many unanswered questions surrounding Sandusky and ALL of the people around him who enabled his actions.  He is the sole owner of responsibility for his victims' physical injuries.  But, anyone who knew what was happening and did not do enough to stop it, shares the responsibility with Sandusky for the victims' mental anguish.  That's my opinion, but it's also the accepted opinion of experts who are champions for the cause against child molestation.  (And it's the reason why Penn State will pay out millions in compensatory damages when the court proceedings are all said and done.)

I will always think that it is paramount to the future well-being of the victims to ask the questions and expose the truth, regardless of whether the truth damages the reputation of anybody who was formerly thought of as above reproach.  Always.  Here I get the feeling that some people just don't want the questions to be asked.


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## SueDonJ (Jan 27, 2012)

Elan said:


> It's not that you have no clue what you're talking about, it's that you aren't making the same presumptions that others are making.  I think most _presume_ that there was another reason that Sandusky "retired" when he did.  He was in the prime of his career, and by most accounts was the "coach in waiting" at PSU.  I think most _presume_ that McQueary didn't make up the shower story.  I think most _presume_ that JoePa was easily the most powerful man on Penn State's campus.  I think most _presume_ that JoePa had the power to do most anything he wanted within the confines of the university, including the power to insist on a thorough investigation of Sandusky's actions, and the ability to dictate than Sandusky never set foot on university property again.
> 
> Are these reasonable presumptions?  That's up to you to decide.  If one makes these presumptions, then it's pretty easy to conclude that JoePa didn't hold up to his moral obligations.  If one doesn't make these presumptions (Sandusky legitimately retired, McQueary's allegations were simply hearsay, JoePa was "just a football coach" and it's not a football coach's responsibility to investigate criminal activity, etc), then it's reasonable to conclude that he fulfilled his legal obligation.
> 
> It really comes down to what presumptions one is willing to make based on the info at hand.



Another one for the "Like" button.


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## jlf58 (Jan 27, 2012)

Sounds like you have no idea about how college football programs work. As long as Paterno was there, he called all the shots. He could have made that off limits but he didn't. It amazing how niave you are ! 



geekette said:


> Now you're being abusive.
> 
> "YOUR" lockerroom?  PennSt's lockerroom.
> 
> It's an amazing ability you have to "just know" the thoughts and motivations of otehrs.


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## jlf58 (Jan 27, 2012)

awesome post 



SueDonJ said:


> Another one for the "Like" button.


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## pjrose (Jan 27, 2012)

My crystal ball is predicting a lock if people are insulting each other.


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## geekette (Jan 27, 2012)

Fletch said:


> Sounds like you have no idea about how college football programs work. As long as Paterno was there, he called all the shots. He could have made that off limits but he didn't. It amazing how niave you are !



Glad to amaze you.  Being female, there have not ever been any football programs open to me.  

Paterno got fired.  Which means he reported to someone.  He clearly did not call ALL the shots.


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## BoaterMike (Jan 27, 2012)

pjrose said:


> My crystal ball is predicting a lock if people are insulting each other.



Yep.   :ignore: 

R.I.P.  Joe.


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## geekette (Jan 27, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> ...I will always think that it is paramount to the future well-being of the victims to ask the questions and expose the truth, regardless of whether the truth damages the reputation of anybody who was formerly thought of as above reproach.  Always.  Here I get the feeling that some people just don't want the questions to be asked.



Great post.

I'm not sure what best serves the victims, I only know they were greatly harmed.  Of course I want them to heal, to be able to live full lives, to put it behind them.  I hope they all got/are getting the help they need.  

I am fine with the questions, and I agree that light needs to be shined.  I'm just wanting actual answers versus conjecture.

I also don't care about damaging the reputation of someone that did wrong.   A reputation, good or bad, is earned.  But to boil down Paterno's life's work to this scandal doesn't sit well with me.  If he's culpable, his reputation will carry the stain.  I simply do not believe that he was key to this, that his involvement was as large as some post with vehemence.  

I am not a long time fan of PS nor Paterno.  I'm simply a Libra who craves truth and justice, who weighs things before deciding and the facts aren't all on the scales yet.   Calling me names ain't gonna change that (not you, Sue, you are a most diplomatic poster).  I'd be an excellent juror but clearly a pita to the other 11.  So be it.  If reasonable doubt exists, I won't convict.


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## Talent312 (Jan 28, 2012)

Fletch said:


> As long as Paterno was there, he called all the shots. He could have made that off limits but he didn't. It amazing how niave you are !



Reporting it up the chain of command was a poor call by someone who [allegedly] was trying to cover it up. Then he made the deccsion to fire himself. The decision to bar Sandusky was not made by the PSU President.

I suggest that relying on half-truths, suppositions and innuendo is intellectually dishonest and at best an opinion.

*Unfortunately, this thread has degenerated into a flame war, which was never my intention. I say, its time to put this one to bed and return to our Happy Valley.*


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## Makai Guy (Jan 28, 2012)

*Thread closed*



Talent312 said:


> *Unfortunately, this thread has degenerated into a flame war, which was never my intention. I say, its time to put this one to bed and return to our Happy Valley.*



Agreed.  This all has been hashed out before.


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