# Don't Buy Wyndham, or other, timeshares RETAIL



## timeos2 (Nov 25, 2007)

We need a topic that states it simply. There are three or four posts per week asking if it makes sense to buy from Wyndham at the retail rate. In 99.99% of the cases the answer is NO.  Buy resale Wyndham only.  Can also apply to over 95% of all timeshares but especially to Wyndham Fairshare Plus Points.  

That applies despite the protests and urging of the infamous lying sales weasels. There is no difference in use rights, trading or annual fees by buying FSP resale. Wyndham has decided to prohibit access to the virtually meaningless VIP status if you buy resale. But that system keeps being gutted, points required raised and no one can or will make the case that the difference in cost between retail and resale is worth it to get VIP.  We're talking tens of thousands of dollars after all for a 2 hour early check in and a "free" paper.  Don't fall for it. 

Anyway feel free to post here to get this to stay up where the poo rsuckers thinking of buying retail FSP Points are likely to see it.


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## moonlightgraham (Nov 25, 2007)

And I love the sales job posing as an "owner survey" that they always try to hook you into when staying at a property. We sat thru one recently at Bonnet Creek to get the 75 Disney dollars but the salesman was offended that I was wasting his time when I told him I would never, ever buy retail. When I mentioned that he never even asked for the phony baloney questionnaire of topics I wanted covered in the "owner survey" he pushed me off to "gifting" immediately. 

Wyndham has some nice properties, and I like the flexibility of the points system, but they have some of the sleaziest sales people and tactics still found in the timeshare business.


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## AwayWeGo (Nov 25, 2007)

*The Sound Of Sizzle.*

The path into timeshares that we happened to follow was other than FairField (now Wyndham), & by the time we found about FairField/Wyndham*,* we pretty much already owned all the timeshares we'd ever need, & that was that.  So we are not now nor have we ever been Fairfield (Wyndham) timeshare owners.  (Our loss, I suppose.  So it goes.) 

However that may be, after absorbing as much as I'm able of _The Wisdom Of TUG_ via TUG-BBS, I have to say that the impression comes through super-loud & extra-clear that all this FairField/Wyndham so-called VIP & Gold-VIP & Platinum-VIP & I don't know what-all VIP seems like the most blatant form of timeshare extra-cost & no-value sizzle out there (as distinct from the underlying actual timeshare ownership, which I gather in the case of FairField/Wyndham is 1 of the best -- sizzle aside*,* I mean). 

Other than TUG & the a few Orlando billboards advertising timeshare resales, plus a few brochures in Florida supermarket handout racks (very few), I don't know of any readily available ways for prospective timeshare buyers to catch on that _all_ timeshares are _used-used-used_ by the time anybody shows up & checks in & so therefore there is _zero_ advantage -- as in zip, zorch, zilch, nada -- in buying full-freight big-bux timeshares "new" instead of resale, & the same goes double for FairField/Wyndham super-status.  

TUG can only do so much.  It's just too bad the hard way is the only way of finding out that's available to so many folks out there.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## moonlightgraham (Nov 25, 2007)

You know how on cruise ships, etc., you'll see "friends of Bill" meetings for the AA folks on board to help stay on the straight and narrow? How about we start a "I bought my timeshare retail" support group so those poor souls won't get suckered again while enjoying a week in their outrageously expensive Super-Double Platinum VIP Presidential Suite?


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## CharlesS (Nov 26, 2007)

*Support Group not Needed*



moonlightgraham said:


> How about we start a "I bought my timeshare retail" support group so those poor souls won't get suckered again while enjoying a week in their outrageously expensive Super-Double Platinum VIP Presidential Suite?


I don't need a support group even though my first purchase was retail.  Why?  If I did not buy retail, i would not have bought.  Why?  Workaholic!  We didn't vacation.  Always put it off.  I would never, never have looked at resale timeshares.  So, my first purchase could be considered "tuition" which taught me about timeshares.  Now, some 5 resales later, I am a happy camper who does not regret that first purchase.  (By the way, we did not go to Orlando to see all the "Timeshare resales" billboards and even if we did, we would have ignored them, or put it off.)

By the way, you all should be thankful for those retail purchasers because they made it possible for you to buy their resale.  Also, if there were no retail purchases, there would be no timeshares period.

So, we are thankful for the pressure cooker that got us to buy.

Charles


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## timeos2 (Nov 26, 2007)

CharlesS said:


> I don't need a support group even though my first purchase was retail.  Why?  If I did not buy retail, i would not have bought.  Why?  Workaholic!  We didn't vacation.  Always put it off.  I would never, never have looked at resale timeshares.  So, my first purchase could be considered "tuition" which taught me about timeshares.  Now, some 5 resales later, I am a happy camper who does not regret that first purchase.  (By the way, we did not go to Orlando to see all the "Timeshare resales" billboards and even if we did, we would have ignored them, or put it off.)
> 
> By the way, you all should be thankful for those retail purchasers because they made it possible for you to buy their resale.  Also, if there were no retail purchases, there would be no timeshares period.
> 
> ...



Charles - Point well taken.  But there is no shortage of those who, like you & I, got hooked at Developer presentations no matter how we ended up buying that first week.  If it fits your lifestyle being a timeshare owner is better than not being one. 

In this case we're looking to help those who, unlike many here, find TUG prior to the end of the 7-10 period when the value of their purchase plummets.  I do appreciate the fact that retail purchases fuel the new resorts we enjoy but that doesn't make them a good value to someone simply looking to get into the world of timeshares.  Resale offers great price/value and that message should be made clear to those who come in looking for quick help.


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## AwayWeGo (Nov 26, 2007)

*Billboard, Shmillboard.*




CharlesS said:


> By the way, we did not go to Orlando to see all the "Timeshare resales" billboards and even if we did, we would have ignored them, or put it off.


Looking back, I think the reason "buy resale" clicked with us that time we saw the Orlando billboard was the juxtaposition between that highway sign & the heavy-duty "wow" factor of the timeshare we had seen on tour just a few minutes before the billboard popped into view. 

Those 2 coming so close together in our perception just happened to trigger in us the realization that all timeshares are _used-used-used_, etc., including the 1 we had just been shown. Otherwise that billboard might not have done it for us either -- & for that matter we might not have even noticed the billboard.  So it goes. 

It's worth recalling that part of the sales guy's sales pitch was the idea that timeshares are _deeded real estate_ -- we can use'm, we can rent'm out, we can bequeath'm to our kids & grandkids, we call sell'm, just like any other deeded property.  Well if that's the case -- that we can sell'm -- maybe some folks out there who've already got'm would like to sell'm.  Maybe that didn't figure in at the time, I don't know.  But that was part of the pitch to which we had been exposed right before that insight-inciting Orlando billboard back in 2002, & which we've heard over & over ever since. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## CharlesS (Nov 28, 2007)

timeos2 said:


> Charles - Point well taken.
> In this case we're looking to help those who, unlike many here, find TUG prior to the end of the 7-10 period when the value of their purchase plummets.


John,
If anyone expresses any interest in timeshares, I am more than willing to discuss the ease and value of resale.  I am concerned about those workaholics who finally see the light at the retail presentation, sign on the dotted line, then rescind, and then never buy resale and just go back to work.  They, and especially their families, are missing out on great experiences.

I guess I am also turned off by the inference that every one of the timeshare units in the world was originally purchased by a "sucker".  The timeshare world, unfortunately, would not (and could not) exist without those guys and gals in the pressure cooker sales rooms. 

Charles


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 28, 2007)

CharlesS said:


> John,
> If anyone expresses any interest in timeshares, I am more than willing to discuss the ease and value of resale.  I am concerned about those workaholics who finally see the light at the retail presentation, sign on the dotted line, then rescind, and then never buy resale and just go back to work.  They, and especially their families, are missing out on great experiences.
> 
> I guess I am also turned off by the inference that every one of the timeshare units in the world was originally purchased by a "sucker".  The timeshare world, unfortunately, would not (and could not) exist without those guys and gals in the pressure cooker sales rooms.
> ...



We were suckers times two, having purchased our first and second timeshares 26 and 22 years ago.  But now I will stop everyone I know from buying retail, with resales being sold for pennies on the dollar.  I found out my aunt and uncle bought Fairfield points in Branson from the developer just a few months ago.  I was SO disappointed I had not shared my wisdom with them.  

Rick says maybe we should add a disclaimer into our Christmas Letter, where we brag up our usage of timeshare to go to Hawaii and Orlando.  It would say something like, "Please do not buy timeshare from a sales presentation, feel free to call us about resale instead."


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## johnmfaeth (Nov 28, 2007)

Hi Charles,

I bought my first resale, I was already an Ebay 'junkie" by then (bought in 2000), heavy into Ebay since 1997/8 or so.

But I do not take a derogatory view of those who bought retail. I instead try to spread the word and prevent others from doing so. Saved my next door neighbor from a $34K Florida Wyndham package in August, luckily I had asked how there trip was and they are super delighted they rescinded (they can't afford it either as retirees). The resale market is still in its infancy and most people never even heard of it as a real option.

And the TS Weasals are the masters of spin. 

I do think that those who are fully informed and choose to buy from a Developer a second time or more, with no logic applied other than fear of going resale are lemings and deserve their fate. But that is rare as most people are much sharper. 

This is the main reason I am active here and elsewhere. I was very lucky, I want others to share in that luck.


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## Bill4728 (Nov 28, 2007)

Please be aware there are 3 kinds of ownerships at resorts which are managed by FF/Wyndham and therefore this can add to the confusion. 
They are:
1. Ownership at a FF managed resort in which Fairshare points (FSP) are included in the ownership.
2. Ownership at a FF managed resort in which FSP is not included but may be purchased from FF for a significant extra cost.
3. Ownership at a FF managed resort in which FSP is not possible because FF is managing just part the resort and your purchase is in another part of that resort. 

If being part of FF/Wyndham is what you are trying to obtain, then you only want to buy a unit with FSP included.  BUT some people want  a week at a single resort (like the pahio resorts in Hawaii) and don't care if they get FSP. They then would be happy to buy a week which FSP isn't included.


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## TUGBrian (Nov 28, 2007)

tis easy...get all your hoa boards and such to send out TUGBBS information in their annual newsletter.

the more people that join...the more people that know...and the more people they tell!

you are absolutely right however...most people find TUG after their purchase vs before.


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## Jya-Ning (Nov 28, 2007)

CharlesS said:


> I guess I am also turned off by the inference that every one of the timeshare units in the world was originally purchased by a "sucker".



Someone that can afford spending over $10,000 so make sure he/she get one happy week, and can pay the MF without worry it will hurt their living?  I would not classify any of them "sucker".  

On the other hand, there are people that can not afford it and still bought it.  Also people that at first believe they can but when situation went bad, they found there is no way out.  I have all sympath for them.  

At this moment, the business is generating over 9 B sale per year in US along.  So I would believe if the high pressure pitch no longer work or become too expensive to use, the whole industrial will find a new way to sell itself.  And one way is to open the information, compete on the service.  So people that willing to sit down and figure out what they can and can not afford can do that with easy.  I believe that is for the best of customers in general.

Jya-Ning


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 28, 2007)

Developer purchases can make sense, if you already do own PAHIO weeks and a small points package allows the conversion of those fixed weeks to get to that Platinum VIP level.


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## gstepic (Nov 28, 2007)

*The only bad thing about TUG*

My wife keeps telling me how foolish I was buying our second time share after telling her about TUG and the resale values. Yep, I was foolish because I did not know any better and consider myself fortunate that I only bought two retail as FF never lets up on the sales pitches and we do enjoy the freebies. I know some FF owners in Albuquerque that keep buying more and more retail so now I am on a mission to "save" them.

But now it is pretty easy to say no and we are less inclined to here sales pitches, in fact we avoided them on our recent Hawaii trip. We have some relatives that were about to buy retail and they are very interested in learning more about TUG so I will be providing them the link (hmmm, I keep thinking there is some sort of referral system that can go toward my huge annual TUG fee, well, I am kidding about the huge fee).

Gary


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## TUGBrian (Nov 28, 2007)

there is a referral award system...whenever someone signs up there is a line to put who referred them to TUG.

each referral is worth 6 months membership extension...

10 total referrals and you get a lifetime membership to TUG.

http://www.tug2.net/referral.htm


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## AwayWeGo (Nov 28, 2007)

*T.U.G. Freebies.*




gstepic said:


> I keep thinking there is some sort of referral system that can go toward my huge annual TUG fee,


TUG does award free membership extensions, not for referrals that I know of but for prize-winning timeshare resort reviews (based on actually staying at the timeshare being reviewed) that are sent into the _TUG Reviews_ section. 

I actually won _TUG Timeshare Review Of The Month_ honors once or twice, & I nearly let that go to my head.  (The reward for winning is free TUG membership extension or free TUG classified ad -- my choice.  I never chose, just let it ride.  One of these days when I try to cash in, I'm hoping the TUG Grand Pro will remember.) 

Winning went to my head because I thought the award was based on the outstanding overall excellence of my informative, witty, entertaining, & all-round top-notch timeshare reviews -- not to mention my crisp, clear, readable prose. 

_Wrong_. 

It turns out I won because the 2 timeshares on which I sent in winning reviews were simply short on recent reviews in the _TUG Reviews_ section.  Shux, practically _anything_ somebody sent in about those timeshares to the _TUG Reviews_ honcho would have been apt to win a prize, simply on the basis of _Something Beats Nothing_.  Who knew?  

Now that I've learned better, I try to behave in more in keeping with my well-earned sense of modesty about my so-called _TUG Review_ achievements.  Sheesh.  

However that may be, I've noticed lately in looking through the _TUG Reviews_ that there are notations over in the far-right column showing timeshares that are short on recent reviews & therefore prospects for earning honors for people willing to send in reviews on them based on current events there. 

Live & learn, eh ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## TUGBrian (Nov 28, 2007)

there is no "review of the month" award...just to clear things up.

any resort that has not been reviewed in the past 6 months qualifies for a resort review award.

meaning any new qualifying reviews will grant the submitter an award that can be used for a 6month membership extension...or a free ad.

These awards do not expire unless your membership does and are tracked along with your membership account.

There is a QUARTERLY resort review award...which is the best review of the quarter (chosen by the award manager from all reviews that quarter).  The winner of that can choose between a free exchange week....or a lifetime membership.

details for both these items are here:

http://tug2.net/resortreviewaward.htm

this is of course separate from the membership referral award.

basically we give the ability for those that contribute back to the community the ability to maintain their TUG membership for free!


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## TUGBrian (Nov 28, 2007)

so to clarify...to avoid paying any TUG membership fees you can either:

submit 6 regular reviews in a year
submit 2 reviews of resorts that have not been reviewed in the past 6months
refer 2 people to TUG as new members
any combination of the above etc.

or you can pay $10 dollars...your choice! =)


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## DonnaD (Dec 15, 2007)

*Tug business cards still available??*

Does Tug still have cards that can be printed out to hand out for referrals? We had some and gave them out when we talked about TUG to other timeshare owners at our resorts, but I ran out of them and I forget how I got them. any information would be appreciated.
DonnaD


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## Jya-Ning (Jan 9, 2008)

*VIP*

It is a program with certain value.  Otherwise, they will not be able to sell more points to existing owners.  They probably sell 40% to existing owners.

It has two parts, one can easily be measured by money, discount, room upgrade, some newspaper deliever to the room.  House keep credit free and transaction free after gold level.  And certain free Guest Certification.

The other part is not easily measureable, room request (gold+), reserve at 11 month. put points into credit pool at a later time.

It does give one a certain feeling that (s)he has less to worry and can spend the points in a waste way.  So it does make one feel a little bit richer.

FF claims the benefit is come from sales, so when you pay them the retail price, they will put aside some money so you can enjoy these benefit.

The whole idea of VIP is like you give your money to an investment bank to buy annuity, in exchange, they will give you certain return, that allows you to have certain cash flow without worrying how to invest them yourself to get the same cash flow.  Unfortuantely, in this case, the cash amount is not guarantee.

So, the 1st thing you need to remember is you have to trust the company, because there is no guarantee they will deliever, and they have changed it since the 1st day it come out.

The reason is simple, there is a hugh overhead to manage any reserve money with low risk investment.  And if they can do well in high risk investment, it is more profit to open an investment company, or try to solve the Social Security mess.

Most people will not see too much saving the the money part.  Sadly.

Jya-Ning


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## PA- (Jan 10, 2008)

CharlesS said:


> ....By the way, you all should be thankful for those retail purchasers because they made it possible for you to buy their resale.  Also, if there were no retail purchases, there would be no timeshares period....



Poppycock!

Regulation kept airplane tickets and long distance calls expensive for years, and if they were deregulated nobody would provide the service, right?

Any industry with a 50% cost of sales and marketing needs to go bye bye, if they can't change and still make a living.


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## PA- (Jan 10, 2008)

CharlesS said:


> ...The timeshare world, unfortunately, would not (and could not) exist without those guys and gals in the pressure cooker sales rooms.
> 
> Charles



More poppycock.  As long as people believe there's no way to sell timeshares other than a high pressure sale, timeshares will be a bad deal.  

Real estate isn't a bad deal, and timeshares don't need to be either.


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## PA- (Jan 10, 2008)

Buying a new car used to be a game.  Now you can pick out your car over the internet from several dealers around your state, and negotiate with them for the best price.  I've not seen a new car dealer in my area go out of business ever.  So I'm assuming they still do ok.  When I buy a car, I usually pay 1% LESS than invoice price, which means the dealer makes approximately 2% profit after holdback.  That's about what a grocery store makes with FAR more turnovers than a car dealer!  Yet they stay in business.


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## talkamotta (Jan 12, 2008)

CharlesS said:


> I don't need a support group even though my first purchase was retail.  Why?  If I did not buy retail, i would not have bought.  Why?  Workaholic!  We didn't vacation.  Always put it off.  I would never, never have looked at resale timeshares.  So, my first purchase could be considered "tuition" which taught me about timeshares. Charles



WOW.... This is starting to sound like a Timeshare's Annoymous Meeting.  That part where we all get up and say.  "Yes, I bought my first timeshare retail"    

It did the same for me.  I now have 8 1/2..    If anything the one thing timeshare weasles say that is true is "Timesharing will make you vacation"   Hopefully.  

I feel like I am one of the lucky ones.  I learned how to use my first timeshare and now 10 years later, it wasnt a bad deal after all.  Tuition cost me $5K, so it wasnt as expensive for me as others. The rewards I have received are priceless.   What is sad, are the people who buy retail and then never use them,  only to either give them back and hurt thier credit or sell at .10 on the $.


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## Pup (Jan 31, 2008)

PA- said:


> Buying a new car used to be a game.  Now you can pick out your car over the internet from several dealers around your state, and negotiate with them for the best price.  I've not seen a new car dealer in my area go out of business ever.  So I'm assuming they still do ok.  When I buy a car, I usually pay 1% LESS than invoice price, which means the dealer makes approximately 2% profit after holdback.  That's about what a grocery store makes with FAR more turnovers than a car dealer!  Yet they stay in business.



Coming from a family of car salesman - they make money on the extras- undercoating warranties, alarms. 

We just made our first Wydham/FF points purchased and was sickened at the retail price thrown at me 2 weeks ago at Bentley Creek. I almost laughed right in the salesman's face. I even asked for a discounted night and he said "Oh NO- this is exclusively for owners"! Bull- you can get a night on Hotels.com at any time. Anyway- I just walked out feeling bad for the innocent Family/ Elderly/Foreigner anyone who may not be savy enough to know to buy resale 
By the way- my 203,000 points at Kingsgate cost me $1700- a far cry from the $30,000 he was trying to hit me with!!!!!!!! The worst part was the interest rate was something near 15% !!!


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## photosmike (Jan 31, 2008)

PA- said:


> Poppycock!
> 
> Regulation kept airplane tickets and long distance calls expensive for years, and if they were deregulated nobody would provide the service, right?
> 
> Any industry with a 50% cost of sales and marketing needs to go bye bye, if they can't change and still make a living.



PA,

I agree with what you said but, a 50% cost of sales does not account for all of the price differential.  There must be something else going on.

My thoughts are that it is supply and demand at work. There are more timeshare units for sale than the secondary market (mostly Internet) can handle.  Where are the resale buyers?  Where do they come from?  Who does any real marketing of timeshares to the general public to create more resale buyers?

Developers do the marketing of timeshares.  Those who buy (i in 10) pay a lot for the timeshare; a lot of those who don't (9 out of 10), go away thinking timeshare is a scam.  My guess is that most of the 9 of 10 (think Voyager) will never consider buying any timeshare.

Disney & Marriott owners don't seem to have this situation.  I believe it's because these developers support the price of resells.  My view it is wrong headed for the developers to provide less to owners who bought from a prior owner.  VIP is an example.

JMHO

Mike


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## lprstn (Jan 31, 2008)

CharlesS said:


> I don't need a support group even though my first purchase was retail.  Why?  If I did not buy retail, i would not have bought.  Why?  Workaholic!  We didn't vacation.  Always put it off.  I would never, never have looked at resale timeshares.  So, my first purchase could be considered "tuition" which taught me about timeshares.  Now, some 5 resales later, I am a happy camper who does not regret that first purchase.  (By the way, we did not go to Orlando to see all the "Timeshare resales" billboards and even if we did, we would have ignored them, or put it off.)
> 
> By the way, you all should be thankful for those retail purchasers because they made it possible for you to buy their resale.  Also, if there were no retail purchases, there would be no timeshares period.
> 
> ...



Ha ha ha! You Go Brother!  I second that!!!!!!  However I must admit that our first one we bought new, then I saw the "Timeshare Resale Sign" got buyers remorse, called them and checked the price, almost fainted, then cancelled my timeshare with the Sheraton Vistana, and within3 months was the happy owner of my first resale.  With that said, I still bought new from the developer, after I had bought my 3rd resale.  Now my husband said if I buy another timeshare he is going to sell my car to pay the maintenance fees.  Hence why I am still driving my 7 year old car, and having the time of my life traveling (hee hee)


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## AwayWeGo (Jan 31, 2008)

*T. U. G. 1-Page Informational Handout Still Availalble*




DonnaD said:


> Does Tug still have cards that can be printed out to hand out for referrals? We had some and gave them out when we talked about TUG to other timeshare owners at our resorts, but I ran out of them and I forget how I got them. any information would be appreciated.
> DonnaD


Don't know about any TUG biz cards, but you can click here (PDF) for a TUG 1-page informational handout that might be just as good.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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