# Ka'anapali Beach Club Owner's Problem



## Walt

We are using our owner's week at Ka'anapali Beach Club from Jan 10 to Jan 17 and we traded into the KBC from Jan. 17 to Jan 24.

We arrived about 12:15 pm. I was able to check in but the room was not available until 4:00 pm. That was alright since we wanted to take a ride up the North Coast of West Maui.

We got back at 4:00 pm and found out we had been given an Deluxe Ocean View Unit over looking the Pool.

While this may sound great. The Unit number is 406 and it is a great unit with a great view. *But it is not what we paid for.*

We became owners about 6 years ago. We have a *deed *to an Ocean Deluxe *FRONT *Unit. 

At the time we bought at the KBC there were 3 types of 1 bedroom units.

Mountain View

Ocean View

Deluxe Ocean Front View.

Each unit have a different price with the Deluxe Ocean Front costing several Thousand Dollars more. 

We made our reservation in Jan. 2008 for Jan 2009. 

At Check in, KBC told me that they do not have Deluxe Ocean FRONT units anymore. Deluxe Ocean Front Units and Ocean View units are now called Deluxe Ocean View Units.

Well, I am not the type of person that will just say "OK." I only want what I paid for and KBC is telling me there are NO Ocean Deluxe Front Units available.

Customer service was no help yet. I will be talking to management and also I have a 8:30 tour scheduled.

I will be posting how they handle the problem.

Walt


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## LisaRex

If you give up your fixed week, are you still entitled to a comparable view?  It seems to me, logically, that it would be impossible to guarantee the view if they have fixed weeks because all ocean front owners may be using the week that they own.


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## dougp26364

LisaRex said:


> If you give up your fixed week, are you still entitled to a comparable view?  It seems to me, logically, that it would be impossible to guarantee the view if they have fixed weeks because all ocean front owners may be using the week that they own.




Did I miss something? Didn't he say he was staying in his owners week now (Jan. 10th) and traded in for next week. Seems to me that he's staying on his owners time now.

I own a floating ocean front week with Marriott and I will always get that ocean front view when staying on my owners time. Marriott doesn't allow overbooking of a view. I would expect DRI to do the same for their owners when that owner is staying on their owned time. 

Now, since Walt stated he's exchanged in for next week, I'd expect he'd be treated like an exchanger and get whatever the resort assigns him. But I think (I could be wrong, I often am) that's he's staying on his own time this week.


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## DeniseM

Walt said:


> At Check in, KBC told me that they do not have Deluxe Ocean FRONT units anymore. Deluxe Ocean Front Units and Ocean View units are now called Deluxe Ocean View Units.



Ask to see the document that made this change.

Ask how to contact the BOD.

Report them to the local BBB.


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## lv_maui

*View problem*

I would first ask for the general manager to be contacted immediately to discuss the problem.  There is no reason that your problem can not be escalated on a weekend.  If you seem to get the run around, I would email Simon Crawford-Welch, as he just sent an announcement to the DRI yahoo group asking that we contact him before assuming that you are getting ripped off ("my words").  His address is simon.crawford-welch@diamondresorts.com

From my knowledge of the resort, you are guaranteed that view but in a roving number of units that have that view.  The guy who really knows the answer is Dave Weiss, the Broker at the inception, but he is no longer with them.


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## LisaRex

dougp26364 said:


> Did I miss something? Didn't he say he was staying in his owners week now (Jan. 10th) and traded in for next week. Seems to me that he's staying on his owners time now.



Ah, I see now. 

Yup.  I'd be highly, highly pissed because you pay a premium for the best view.  You need to escalate it.


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## Bill4728

I find it hard to believe that the resort can simply merge two different view categories into a single one.  IMHO, It isn’t something that can be done with a vote of the BOD.   I’d ask for the documentation that shows that this was done legally.  

If you bought pre"club" and have since joined the "club" this may be the problem. Since you now must follow the club's rules. But if this was a pre club purchase and your still not in the club I'd raise hell!


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Bill4728 said:


> I find it hard to believe that the resort can simply merge two different view categories into a single one.  IMHO, It isn’t something that can be done with a vote of the BOD.   I’d ask for the documentation that shows that this was done legally.
> 
> If you bought pre"club" and have since joined the "club" this may be the problem. Since you now must follow the club's rules. But if this was a pre club purchase and your still not in the club I'd raise hell!



Yes. It's *critical* to know whether this is an owner reservation or a Club reservation.  If Walt joined the Club, then what is on the deed is irrelevant.  The only thing that matters is what was reserved through the Club.

But if this is an unconverted or unaffilated week, then the reservation rights should be unchanged from what was purchased.


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## Walt

*I am not a Club Onwer*




T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Yes. It's *critical* to know whether this is an owner reservation or a Club reservation.  If Walt joined the Club, then what is on the deed is irrelevant.  The only thing that matters is what was reserved through the Club.
> 
> But if this is an unconverted or unaffilated week, then the reservation rights should be unchanged from what was purchased.



I am still working on the problem.  DRI is saying there was never a Deluxe Ocean Front unit.

I got a copy of my contract.

I bought on 1/24/01.

There were 3 Suite types at the time.

Ohana (Deluxe Ocean View)  These were Ocean Front units *only.*

Aloha (Ocean View).  These were Pool Units with an Ocean View  

LoKahi (Scenic View)  View on the Mountains.

They now have *Deluxe Ocean View* only which includes the Ocean View (The units overlooking the Pool)  and Ocean Front.   And they say that they can put me in any Deluxe Ocean View Unit which may or may not be Ocean Front.


I still don't know who gets the Ocean Front Units.




Walt  

PS. there will be moving me to an Ocean Front Unit on Thursday.  But I still don't know it in 2011 they will give me what I paid extra for which was an Ocean Front Unit.


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## Walt

*The first week is my Owners Week*



dougp26364 said:


> Did I miss something? Didn't he say he was staying in his owners week now (Jan. 10th) and traded in for next week. Seems to me that he's staying on his owners time now.
> 
> I own a floating ocean front week with Marriott and I will always get that ocean front view when staying on my owners time. Marriott doesn't allow overbooking of a view. I would expect DRI to do the same for their owners when that owner is staying on their owned time.
> 
> Now, since Walt stated he's exchanged in for next week, I'd expect he'd be treated like an exchanger and get whatever the resort assigns him. But I think (I could be wrong, I often am) that's he's staying on his own time this week.




The first week is my Owner's week.  I should be put into an Ohana View (Deluxe Ocean View) Which was Ocean Front at the time I bought in 1/24/01.

The 2nd week they could put me anywhere.

Walt


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Walt said:


> I am still working on the problem.  DRI is saying there was never a Deluxe Ocean Front unit.
> 
> I got a copy of my contract.
> 
> I bought on 1/24/01.
> 
> There were 3 Suite types at the time.
> 
> Ohana (Deluxe Ocean View)  These were Ocean Front units *only.*
> 
> Aloha (Ocean View).  These were Pool Units with an Ocean View
> 
> LoKahi (Scenic View)  View on the Mountains.
> 
> They now have *Deluxe Ocean View* only which includes the Ocean View (The units overlooking the Pool)  and Ocean Front.   And they say that they can put me in any Deluxe Ocean View Unit which may or may not be Ocean Front.
> 
> 
> I still don't know who gets the Ocean Front Units.


The Timeshare program documents I received from Po'ipu contain an attachment that lists every unit at the property and the view category assigned to that unit.  See if you can find something similar in your documents.

I also suggest that you post about this at the message boards at the DRI website.  The mods there are pretty good about getting replies to questions such as this.


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## Werner

Walt, your reservation confirmation document, which should have arrived a week or so after you made the reservation, normally documents exactly what category of unit is reserved.... and you are right, there used to be "Deluxe Ocean Front" units because we stayed in one two years ago, trading 11500 points for it, exactly the number of points of a 2 br Ocean View at the Point.  The old unit diagrams showed Deluxe Ocean Fronts were the end-on units directly facing the beach.  I realize that you don't carry a deed with you on vacation but your deed should have an exact listing of the units, by view category *and by number*, that you are entitled to reserve, our Poipu deed does.  

I just checked the DRI reservations site and indeed the Deluxe Ocean Front units are no longer shown.  They can define whatever they want for new buyers and trust members and/or traders but your deed should be specific and bullet-proof. 

Steve,  are you referring to club "trust" owners not being guaranteed unit types or deeded owners who are also in the club?  I don't believe that deeded owners in the club give up their unit "view" rights to join the club.  If they ever tried to pull a stunt like that the solution is just to dump DRI and make reservations directly through the Point.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Werner said:


> Steve,  are you referring to club "trust" owners not being guaranteed unit types or deeded owners who are also in the club?  I don't believe that deeded owners in the club give up their unit "view" rights to join the club.  If they ever tried to pull a stunt like that the solution is just to dump DRI and make reservations directly through the Point.


Deeded owners *do* give up their rights to a particular view category if they affiliate their week with the club.  If they terminate the affiliation with the trust and revert to deeded status, they get their view rights back.

What happens when you affiliate your week with the Club is that you sign a piece of paper in which you assign your right to receive a week in accordance with your deeded ownership to the club.  In exchange, you get the points.

Note that you no longer have a reservation right; you have points.  To get back into your view category you need to reserve a unit at the resort *through the Club*, not through the resort, using the points needed to reserve your view category.  In fact, if you try to reserve a unit directly through the resort, the resort will tell you that you need to reserve through the Club.

There's a bit of a twist though.  The Club charges more points to reserve during peak times, and I think there is a lower point tier during off times.  So if you've been accustomed to reserving at peak times under the weeks system, after you join the Club you might find that you don't have enough points to continue reserving those peak times unless you buy an added slice of ownership.

There is a work around for that, and that is at the time you link up with the Club you also negotiate an agreement that allows you to reserve any unit in your view category for any time of year using the points you get for affiliating your week.  That's what we did.

+++++++

At Ka'anapali it appears that the Club has redefined what view categories.  But that should only be for their internal purposes.  The assignment of units at the time deeds were sold should remain the same for deeded owners.  Deeded owners who remain outside the Club should have the same reservation rights they always had.

Of course, it's entirely possible that DRI has managed to screw up the inventory control system so that the system can no longer track and manage inventory based on owner rights.

DRI management got a bit testy at the DRI Boards the other day when I told them their motto ought to be "Simplicity Postponed".  That was after I pointed out to them that changes that they said one year ago in writing were a good idea have not been implemented.  Instead their website has been going backwards and things like online account statements and paying maintenance fees with points is in worse shape now than one year ago.


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## Sunterra

Werner said:


> .... and you are right, there used to be "Deluxe Ocean Front" units because we stayed in one two years ago, trading 11500 points for it, exactly the number of points of a 2 br Ocean View at the Point.  The old unit diagrams showed Deluxe Ocean Fronts were the end-on units directly facing the beach.  I realize that you don't carry a deed with you on vacation but your deed should have an exact listing of the units, by view category *and by number*, that you are entitled to reserve, our Poipu deed does.


I disagree.  I can't find all my print directories, but 2001 didn't even list this resort and the next one I have 2004 lists it as EVR Kaanapali with:
1 Bedroom - Scenic View
1 Bedroom - Ocean View
1 Bedroom - Deluxe Ocean View
2 Bedroom 
2 Bedroom - Presidential Suite
2005,2006,2007,2008 all list it the same.

While I don't doubt the OP and his original deeded view, I disagree your post, you may have easily had an end on OF unit but the 11500 points you paid for that reservation was for a 1 Bedroom - Deluxe Ocean View and whatever it got you.


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## Walt

*KBC has redefined the view categories.*



T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Deeded owners *do* give up their rights to a particular view category if they affiliate their week with the club.  If they terminate the affiliation with the trust and revert to deeded status, they get their view rights back.
> 
> What happens when you affiliate your week with the Club is that you sign a piece of paper in which you assign your right to receive a week in accordance with your deeded ownership to the club.  In exchange, you get the points.
> 
> Note that you no longer have a reservation right; you have points.  To get back into your view category you need to reserve a unit at the resort *through the Club*, not through the resort, using the points needed to reserve your view category.  In fact, if you try to reserve a unit directly through the resort, the resort will tell you that you need to reserve through the Club.
> 
> There's a bit of a twist though.  The Club charges more points to reserve during peak times, and I think there is a lower point tier during off times.  So if you've been accustomed to reserving at peak times under the weeks system, after you join the Club you might find that you don't have enough points to continue reserving those peak times unless you buy an added slice of ownership.
> 
> There is a work around for that, and that is at the time you link up with the Club you also negotiate an agreement that allows you to reserve any unit in your view category for any time of year using the points you get for affiliating your week.  That's what we did.
> 
> +++++++
> 
> *At Ka'anapali it appears that the Club has redefined what view categories.  But that should only be for their internal purposes.  The assignment of units at the time deeds were sold should remain the same for deeded owners.  Deeded owners who remain outside the Club should have the same reservation rights they always had.*
> 
> Of course, it's entirely possible that DRI has managed to screw up the inventory control system so that the system can no longer track and manage inventory based on owner rights.
> 
> DRI management got a bit testy at the DRI Boards the other day when I told them their motto ought to be "Simplicity Postponed".  That was after I pointed out to them that changes that they said one year ago in writing were a good idea have not been implemented.  Instead their website has been going backwards and things like online account statements and paying maintenance fees with points is in worse shape now than one year ago.



KBC has redefined the view categories.  From the 4th Floor to the top floor all units pool side (south side), all units front, and all units north side are now considered Deluxe Ocean View in the Ohana Tower.

Some of the other pool side and north side are also considered Deluxe Ocean View on the lower 3 floors.

When I asked who gets the Ocean Front, they would not give me an answer.  It sounds like they are either renting them out or given to the points owners who are willing to use more points.

I have Customer Service looking up my contract for the unit numbers assigned to the defination of Ohana View.

From what I understand it appears DRI wants to do away with KBC Weeks Ownership. If we put the deed in trust we have no control over our timeshare.  DRI will have total control over everthing and the owners will be forced to pay the bills with high MF. 

Walt


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Walt - one thing you should do is check your deed to see what unit your deed is attached to. Then see what view category that unit is assigned to.


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## Dollie

*Clarification*

In March of 2006, Werner and I stayed in the one-bedroom, deluxe ocean front suite 1010.  We were there for 5 nights and used 8050 points for this trade.


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## Werner

Walt, before you waste your entire week arguing with them, go to the DRI website, login to the members area, click on "Account Overview".  Your contract information should be shown in the second box.  Ours, for the Point, includes the View Type and Unit Numbers as stated in the float/float contract and that they are red week units, and the # of club points allotted to each week.  The points charged for any week should never be higher than the number of points listed there.  Your account summary should list exactly what is in your contract.  

Steve,  I still don't understand your comment that club members no longer have view rights.  The contract specifics; view, unit numbers, and point values are tracked right on the website.  Obviously, there have to be openings when you make the reservation but the ownership details are right there for anyone at Diamond to see.  

I wonder if the Deluxe Ocean Front was an informal designation that Sunterra created and used to charge traders more points for those upper floor end units.  But if they sold weeks in those units separately from the others they have to honor those sales.  

FWIW, we always make reservations by phone at Diamond because the website does not seem to deal with all the variables, (home resort, permium vs red weeks, etc).

CORRECTION: the table does not give the unit numbers, it gives the week numbers used for tracking the unit/week sales.


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## Walt

*Since I am a weeks owners why does my account show 8000 points?*

As stated above I am not KBC owner. Yet if I get on DRI website it states I own week 51, 1 bedroom Dix Ocean, and I have 8000 points list. 

Why would it be listed as 8000 when I am not a Club member?

The Deluxe Ocean View units are now listed by the KBC as all Pool Side units, all Front units, and all North Side Units in the front or Ohona Tower from the 4th floor to the top floor. 

The lower floors have the front units listed as Deluxe Ocean View with some of the Pool Side and North Side as Deluxe Ocean Views.

This was not how it was listed in 1/24/2001 when I bought at the Embassy.

When I ask who gets the Ocean Front Units and how do you get them they would not give me an answer.

I have ask the KBC for the what units were assigned to the Ohona View in my contract. I have all of this information at home but it doesn't help me here.

*Does anyone have any information about what units were assigned to the Ohona View back in 1/24/2001 or before?*

Walt 

PS  I own every other year (odd years).


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Werner said:


> Steve,  I still don't understand your comment that club members no longer have view rights.  The contract specifics; view, unit numbers, and point values are tracked right on the website.  Obviously, there have to be openings when you make the reservation but the ownership details are right there for anyone at Diamond to see.


Werner:

When you have a deed, that week is assigned to a specific view category. When you call to reserve as the owner of that week, *you* have the right to reserve a week in that view category.  The right is attached to ownership of that week.

When you become part of the Club (whether by adding your week to the Trust of affiliating your week with the Club), you surrender your reservation rights to the Club[.*  The Club* now has the right associated with that deed to reserve week in that view category, which they do, and they put that week into their inventory.

In exchange for your reservation rights, you receive points, which you can use to book from the Club inventory.  But you no longer have a specific right to reserve a week in your view category. You can book your view category if it is available in inventory in the Club.  But if it is not in Club inventory you cannot contact the resort and say that you would like to reserve a week in your view category, even if the resort has available inventory in your view category.  You surrendered that right to the Club.  What you have is a right to use points, not a right to reserve a week.

The difference may seem subtle, but it is important and it has both benefits and drawbacks for owners who get involved with the Club.


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## Werner

> In exchange for your reservation rights, you receive points, which you can use to book from the Club inventory. But you no longer have a specific right to reserve a week in your view category. You can book your view category if it is available in inventory in the Club. But if it is not in Club inventory you cannot contact the resort and say that you would like to reserve a week in your view category, even if the resort has available inventory in your view category.



I don't think those subtleties are at work here.  Walt thinks that his view category has been defined out of existence and I don't think the club has the right to arbitrarily redefine unit types in club members' deeds.  If the view category is in his contract, then it should be on his members summary page.  I don't think any of the above discussion allows the Club to alter its obligations to honor the contract he signed.  Obviously the inventory has to be available at the time of the reservation since the resort is float/float but he should be told, specifically in the reservation confirmation, or on the phone, whether the unit type he owns is available.  Had he been told that Deluxe Ocean Front no longer exists this discussion would have been held with DRI supervisors in the comfort of his home 12 months ago, not in a panic while you standing at the front counter ready to check-in.  

Personally I think most of this discussion is academic.  What we have here is a simple screw up and as usual the under-trained, underpaid, overworked customer contact personnel at DRI have no idea how DRI's complex system is supposed to work.  It would be interesting to know what it says on the reservation confirmation.  We always bring that document with us although we have not run into a problem like this.


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## Werner

Walt said:


> As stated above I am not KBC owner. Yet if I get on DRI website it states I own week 51, 1 bedroom Dix Ocean, and I have 8000 points list.
> 
> Why would it be listed as 8000 when I am not a Club member?
> 
> This was not how it was listed in 1/24/2001 when I bought at the Embassy.
> 
> PS  I own every other year (odd years).



Walt, now I'm really confused.  Do you own at KBC?  Are you a club member?  How did you get into KBC?  This whole discussion is predicated on your owning a Deluxe Ocean Front and making reservations for a Deluxe Ocean Front through the Club and then not getting it.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Werner said:


> I don't think those subtleties are at work here.


I agree totally.  But I had the impression you were asking a general question about how joining the Club caused a person to lose their right to a view category.

As Walt has shared more information, it appears to me most likely that in DRI's records his week has been transferred to the Club.  So now his week shows up at the web site with assigned points, and the definition of view categories available to him is the Club's definition, not the resort's definition.

One relatively simple assumption explains all. It's not necessary to resort to convoluted examinations of nefarious conduct, conspiracies, and underhanded dealings.  Just apply Ockham's Razor.


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## Walt

*I am a Week Owner at KBC*



Werner said:


> Walt, now I'm really confused.  Do you own at KBC?  Are you a club member?  How did you get into KBC?  This whole discussion is predicated on your owning a Deluxe Ocean Front and making reservations for a Deluxe Ocean Front through the Club and then not getting it.



I am not a Club memeber.  I own a week at KBC which is an Deluxe Ocean View Week.

Walt


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## Bill4728

Walt said:


> PS. there will be moving me to an Ocean Front Unit on Thursday.  But I still don't know it in 2011 they will give me what I paid extra for which was an Ocean Front Unit.





Walt said:


> The first week is my Owner's week.  I should be put into an Ohana View (Deluxe Ocean View) Which was Ocean Front at the time I bought in 1/24/01.
> 
> The 2nd week they could put me anywhere.
> 
> Walt


Walt, 

What has happened to you is not OK ( because you do not want this to happen to you again  ) but if you look at this from the point of view of: 
Your second week is your owner's week and you got your ocean front unit. 

Your first week is your "anywhere" unit.

If you look at this from that point of view you don't have any complaints?

PS This in no way should let DRI off the hook, you own an ocean fron unit and that is exactly what DRI should always be giving you. And yes, you do need this cleared up.


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## Werner

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I agree totally.  But I had the impression you were asking a general question about how joining the Club caused a person to lose their right to a view category.



I guess I was mostly questioning the explanation that you lose your deeded rights to your unit category when you join the club.  I'm still not buying that part of the story.  Why would your membership summary on the website have that information if it was meaningless.... to remind you of what you gave up?  I don't think so.  I believe, although I'd be hard pressed to point to a document that says it, that *[assuming availability at the time of reservation]* you always have the right to reserve your deeded unit category (view, # of br) for the number of points you were assigned when you bought.  Otherwise the solution is simple, quit the club and take back your unit ownership.  DRI may be clumsy and absurdly complex but I don't think that they are stupid, at least not at the policy making level.  Not being able to reserve your week in your deeded unit category for the points you were assigned would be a serious reason to quit.

I am a little annoyed that KBC doesn't have the Deluxe Ocean Front category anymore (whether it was real or imaginary I don't know but we even found a map somewhere at the time that showed only the upper floors, end-of-the-building directly facing the ocean as Deluxe Ocean Front).  That's what we got, unit 1010.  We could have breakfast on the lanai and look down on the whales just off shore from 10 stories up and see their entire bodies underwater... almost as good as a whale watch boat.  I guess there is no way to reserve just those end units any more... too bad.  That was our first internal Sunterra trade and it worked out so well I was pretty impressed with Sunterra.

One thing these confusing conversations do is highlight the importance of reading the documentation you get from DRI, like the points guides, the reservation confirmations, etc, and of course your contract documents.  Someone posted recently that they were surprised that the cancellation policy time limits have been changed.  I saw that in writing at least once, maybe twice, last year.  I'm almost sure that it was in the letter that came with the dues invoice, telling us all about the great things DRI was doing for us to justify the increase in dues.


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## Walt

*I agree that DRI was worked me for this Vacation.*



Bill4728 said:


> Walt,
> 
> What has happened to you is not OK ( because you do not want this to happen to you again  ) but if you look at this from the point of view of:
> Your second week is your owner's week and you got your ocean front unit.
> 
> Your first week is your "anywhere" unit.
> 
> If you look at this from that point of view you don't have any complaints?
> 
> PS This in no way should let DRI off the hook, you own an ocean fron unit and that is exactly what DRI should always be giving you. And yes, you do need this cleared up.



KBC reservations worked with me one on this vacation.  I am very happy how they handled it.

But, they also will not say I will have an Deluxe Ocean Front unit for my next vacation since they (KBC or DRI) has no Deluxe Ocean Front units (They only say they have Deluxe Ocean View.)  When asked how do you get an Ocean Front Unit, KBC will not say.

Walt


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Werner said:


> I guess I was mostly questioning the explanation that you lose your deeded rights to your unit category when you join the club.  I'm still not buying that part of the story.


When you join the Club you *explicitly* transfer all reservation rights you have to the Club in exchange for points received.  At that point, save for Home Resort Advantage, you have no more right to a view category than a club member who owns anywhere in the system and who has the requisite number of points.

Or to pose it a bit differently, let's say there is a Club member who has deeded  garden view week at Po'ipu that they have attached to the Club (8500 points).  That member rolls over their points to the next year so they have 17,000 points in their account.  That garden view owner now has the same rights to an ocean front unit as does the member with a deeded ocean front unit that they have attached to the Club.

By the way, my account at DRI does not indicate anything about my view category. All it says is that I am a Silver Elite and it indicates the number of points.


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## Werner

Steve,  I think we are in violent agreement.  





> At that point, save for Home Resort Advantage, you have no more right to a view category than a club member who owns anywhere in the system and who has the requisite number of points.


  That's OK, all that means is that I have to make my reservations before the other guy does.  We just used our Silver Elite upgrade rights to reserve an ocean front when we own a ocean view.  That's all club stuff and doesn't worry me.  

The concern I have is that you are implying that DRI could increase the number of points that it takes to trade into Poipu and I, as an owner, not a trader, might not be able to get a week in my view category for the number of points I was assigned when I joined.  Or as in Walt's concern, some Ocean View units are redefined to be something else, say super-ocean-front, and I no longer have enough points to stay in them.  I don't think it is possible to do that retroactively.  If it is and they tried it I suspect it would cause mass defections.  

Anyway, it sounds like most of this discussion is moot.  In post #1 Walt says he was assigned to a Deluxe Ocean View and in # 24 it looks like that is what he owns so apparently KBC/DRI didn't do anything wrong.

PS:   Our account info also includes the contract number for each week.  No wonder its so hard to understand problems people discuss here.  DRI is so complex, no two people have the same type of contract/membership.  And we haven't even included the confusions that the trust bring into this kind of discussion, like what happens when you mix and match trust points with deeded ownership points.  It boggles the mind.


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## Dollie

*Just so we are on the same page*



T_R_Oglodyte said:


> By the way, my account at DRI does not indicate anything about my view category. All it says is that I am a Silver Elite and it indicates the number of points.



Just so we are on the same page --- From the Diamon Resorts home page, we log in.  The Member Area appears and we select Account Overview on the left side of the page.  The right side of the page now has an “Upcoming Reservations” sections followed by a “Contracts Summary” sections.  There is a table in this section with the columns:  Contract #; Resort; Week; Unit; Season; Points; and Status.  The Unit column for us states “2 Bedroom Ocean View”


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Werner said:


> Steve,  I think we are in violent agreement.    That's OK, all that means is that I have to make my reservations before the other guy does.  We just used our Silver Elite upgrade rights to reserve an ocean front when we own a ocean view.  That's all club stuff and doesn't worry me.
> 
> The concern I have is that you are implying that DRI could increase the number of points that it takes to trade into Poipu and I, as an owner, not a trader, might not be able to get a week in my view category for the number of points I was assigned when I joined.  Or as in Walt's concern, some Ocean View units are redefined to be something else, say super-ocean-front, and I no longer have enough points to stay in them.  I don't think it is possible to do that retroactively.  If it is and they tried it I suspect it would cause mass defections.
> 
> Anyway, it sounds like most of this discussion is moot.  In post #1 Walt says he was assigned to a Deluxe Ocean View and in # 24 it looks like that is what he owns so apparently KBC/DRI didn't do anything wrong.
> 
> PS:   Our account info also includes the contract number for each week.  No wonder its so hard to understand problems people discuss here.  DRI is so complex, no two people have the same type of contract/membership.  And we haven't even included the confusions that the trust bring into this kind of discussion, like what happens when you mix and match trust points with deeded ownership points.  It boggles the mind.


DRI already did that when they assigned premium point values during peak periods.  You probably got 11,500 points for that ocean view unit at Po'ipu.  Before joining the Club, you could reserve any ocean view unit any time of year.

But after joining the club you are shut out from reserving at Easter, 4th of July, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years.  DRI doesn't give owners the average points value for the week surrendered.  Unless a person is savvy enough to negotiate a rider that allows them to continue to reserve any time of year, the value of a persons week gets diluted when they join the Club.  

And DRI can change those point values anytime they want.  There is nothing that links those together.

Now, I'm not suggesting that DRI is going to suddenly double the number of points required to reserve weeks at one of the resorts across the board without also adjusting the point values associated with the underlying ownerships.  The link between points and view categories will likely always remain intact.  That's the link that you are arguing will remain and in that context I generally agree with you.

That being said, there is certainly room for DRI to goose owners with those peak pricing assignments.

+++++

DRI is now reaching the point where it is every bit as complex as Raintree.  Back when it looked as if the two might merge, I was trying to imagine how complicated that combination might be!!!


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Dollie said:


> Just so we are on the same page --- From the Diamon Resorts home page, we log in.  The Member Area appears and we select Account Overview on the left side of the page.  The right side of the page now has an “Upcoming Reservations” sections followed by a “Contracts Summary” sections.  There is a table in this section with the columns:  Contract #; Resort; Week; Unit; Season; Points; and Status.  The Unit column for us states “2 Bedroom Ocean View”


Mine says 2-Bedroom Standard; I guess that's because our underlying deed is a float-float.


----------



## Werner

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> But after joining the club you are shut out from reserving at Easter, 4th of July, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years.  DRI doesn't give owners the average points value for the week surrendered.  Unless a person is savvy enough to negotiate a rider that allows them to continue to reserve any time of year, the value of a persons week gets diluted when they join the Club.



This is where we disagree but I don't have any solid experience to point to since we are retired and avoid holiday weeks like the plague.  I think that those premium weeks are for traders or trust owners.  I have a vague recollection of trying to make a reservation during what may have been a holiday week around Easter (by phone) and being told we would be charged more than our annual points for the week.  When we pointed out that we were owners for that category and that all 52 weeks were red, the reservationist corrected herself and the points were charged at the standard 11,500.  Unfortunately, I don't have particulars.  Since your account summary is structured differently than ours it may be that we have different membership contracts and cannot assume that we are under the same constraints.  It is also hard to respond to other peoples posts when there are so many variations within variations of ownership/membership types.  One basic rule seems to be to not make home resort reservations on the web.  The site is not equipped to deal with the complexities.  



> Mine says 2-Bedroom Standard; I guess that's because our underlying deed is a float-float.



Our underlying deed is also float/float.  The owned weeks listed in the summary are part of the accounting process that ensures that each unit/week that gets sold is unique (no double-dipping).


----------



## dougp26364

Steve, 

I own 2 weeks with DRI. One is a float week which is automatically converted to points each year. The other is a fixed week deeded specific unit that is automatically reserved for me. In order to convert that week to points, I must call and release the week. 

In most cases you give up your week for points but, you should maintain the view catagory, as shown by the number of points you receive for your week, when it's converted. During the home resort advantage period you should always have enough points to reserve the week/view you originally purchased as provided in your deed. You do not give up your rights to that week/view. You simply convert it to the number of points required to reserve that week/view. 

In this case, it seem apparent that it's DRI who has changed the rules and Walt, not being in THE Club and not using points to reserve his week has been short changed. What will be of utmost importance is what's in writing in Walts contracts which, I assume are at home. The statement the KBC won't answer who get's the ocean front units is saying a lot IMHO.


----------



## Werner

dougp26364 said:


> In this case, it seem apparent that it's DRI who has changed the rules and Walt, not being in THE Club and not using points to reserve his week has been short changed. What will be of utmost importance is what's in writing in Walts contracts which, I assume are at home. The statement the KBC won't answer who get's the ocean front units is saying a lot IMHO.



In post #24 Walt says that he owns Deluxe Ocean View, which, according to post #1, is exactly what he was assigned.  What did DRI or KBC do wrong?


----------



## Walt

*We did not buy from DRI*



Werner said:


> In post #24 Walt says that he owns Deluxe Ocean View, which, according to post #1, is exactly what he was assigned.  What did DRI or KBC do wrong?



When we  bought at the Embassy in 1/24/2001, it was called the Embassy and my contract is in a large folder with Embassy written all over it back home.  We did not do business with DRI in 1/24/2001.  Sunterra name was not wriiten on our contact.  It was some partnership from AZ that our check was made out to.

At the time 1/24/2001, I know that the Ocean Deluxe was only Ocean Front.  I know I said to our saleperson that we would only buy Ocean Front.  I know and my wife also remembers out saleperson saying "Now when you come to the Embassy you will always have an Ocean Deluxe Front Unit.  I know that we have been back in 2001, 2003, 2005, 2007 and have always had the Ocean Front Unit.

We bought Ocean Front and that that is what we should get.

Walt


----------



## Walt

*Ocean Front versus Ocean View:*

I found this Question and Answer on the Ka'anapali Beach Resort Owner's Web Site.

It appears other owners of the Deluxe Ocean Front are having the same problem.  They also paid extra for the right to have an Ocean Front unit.

Walt  


Ocean Front versus Ocean View: 

There are many owners that were manipulated into spending more money to get Deluxe Ocean Front rather than the Ocean View units.  Several of these owners can produce maps that were issued when they bought.  There is a great deal of anger that Sunterra decided to redraw the map and to designate many units that could have been purchased for far less as “Ocean View” and to drop the Deluxe Ocean Front.  Would you respond to this complaint?

A.  
Sunterra’s Response

The Developer has never sold a view classified as strictly Ocean Front.  Rather, two views, those being Ocean View and Ocean Front, were blended into one view that has always been known as the Deluxe Ocean View category.  This is further confirmed by a review of the Disclosure Statement which sets out the different views sold by the Developer.  You will note that Scenic View, Ocean View and Deluxe Ocean View have always been the view categories offered under the Timeshare Program.



The Developer has never upgraded a view category of any unit once assigned to the Timeshare Program.  It is however true that as the original floors initially intended to be sold under the Timeshare Program expanded up onto the higher floors, that the Deluxe Ocean View category increased as the building makes its ascent upwards.  This decision was based upon the fact that the highest floor of the Tower rises above any other building around it giving one a view of the ocean that is competitive with any hotel/resort on the Ka’anapali shoreline within the same view category


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Walt said:


> The Developer has never sold a view classified as strictly Ocean Front.  Rather, two views, those being Ocean View and Ocean Front, were blended into one view that has always been known as the Deluxe Ocean View category.  This is further confirmed by a review of the Disclosure Statement which sets out the different views sold by the Developer.  You will note that Scenic View, Ocean View and Deluxe Ocean View have always been the view categories offered under the Timeshare Program.



Yes - the Disclosure Statement is the key document for you.  The Disclosure Statement should also indicate what happens when the developer adds more units to the timeshare program.

Certainly if you paid extra for something that wasn't included in the Disclosure Statement you have a legitimate beef.  I would start with a complaint to the Hawai'i Department of Real Estate. Beyond that the phrase "fraudulent inducement" also comes to mind.


----------



## Beat Nick

*Brrrr*

OR, you could just stay in beautiful Hawaii and enjoy your vacation while the rest of us freeze back here on the mainland...come on, are you really in room that much anyway?  Enjoy this vacation and don't worry about the view until the next time you book, then insist on what you want and go up the chain of command until you get it.  That would be how I would approach this if it where me.


----------



## dougp26364

Werner said:


> In post #24 Walt says that he owns Deluxe Ocean View, which, according to post #1, is exactly what he was assigned.  What did DRI or KBC do wrong?



When Walt purchased, Deluxe Ocean View was intended as Ocean Front and owners were charged a premium. Now, they've expanded that catagory to include views that are not ocean front. 

If you paid $2,000 more for an ocean front unit, wouldn't you be ticked to learn that you were now lumped into a catagory that would put you in an ocean side unit? If Walt wanted ocean side, he could have saved his money and paid for ocean side. But that's not what he wanted. He wanted ocean front and he paid a premium for ocean front. 

What's wrong is Walt paid for one view but is now given a view that he could have had for less money. If you pay for the Lincoln but get a Ford Focus instead, you'd be ticked too.


----------



## dougp26364

Beat Nick said:


> OR, you could just stay in beautiful Hawaii and enjoy your vacation while the rest of us freeze back here on the mainland...come on, are you really in room that much anyway?  Enjoy this vacation and don't worry about the view until the next time you book, then insist on what you want and go up the chain of command until you get it.  That would be how I would approach this if it where me.



If you pay $500/night for an ocean front room, would you be happy if the hotel put you in an ocean view room that would have only cost you $300 or would you demand to get the room you paid for?


----------



## Werner

dougp26364 said:


> If you pay for the Lincoln but get a Ford Focus instead, you'd be ticked too.



If I bought a Lincoln I would expect the registration to say Lincoln, not Ford.  Maybe I'm misinterpreting #24; it appears that the registration is for a Ford

I know that the Deluxe Ocean View category existed for a while because we traded into one in 2006.  Dollie's review of our KBC stay in March '06 is still in the TUG reviews.  It clearly says Deluxe Ocean Front.  Yet, I also looked back at the printed SunOptions books for those years and there is no reference to DOF.  But it was on the webpage when we searched for dates and we found a map somewhere that isolated the DOF's.  Hopefully that map is in Walt's records.

FOUND IT, on TUG of all places....
http://tug2.com/ResortImages/Hawaii/Maui/embka_fp.gif

You may have to log in to get it.  I am a little surprised that it shows Ocean Front wrapping around, that's not what I remember.


----------



## dougp26364

Werner said:


> If I bought a Lincoln I would expect the registration to say Lincoln, not Ford.  Maybe I'm misinterpreting #24; it appears that the registration is for a Ford
> 
> I know that the Deluxe Ocean View category existed for a while because we traded into one in 2006.  Dollie's review of our KBC stay in March '06 is still in the TUG reviews.  It clearly says Deluxe Ocean Front.  Yet, I also looked back at the printed SunOptions books for those years and there is no reference to DOF.  But it was on the webpage when we searched for dates and we found a map somewhere that isolated the DOF's.  Hopefully that map is in Walt's records.
> 
> FOUND IT, on TUG of all places....
> http://tug2.com/ResortImages/Hawaii/Maui/embka_fp.gif
> 
> You may have to log in to get it.  I am a little surprised that it shows Ocean Front wrapping around, that's not what I remember.



What will be of most importance is Walt's paperwork and what view it guarentee's him. If it says he bought a Lincoln rather than a Ford, he shouldn't have to fight each time he checks in to get the view for which he's paid. Walt bought with Embassy which was taken over by Sunterra which was purchased by DRI. That's three management/developers in 8 years. Mistakes are bound to happen with that many changes in both sales and reservations. 

To DRI's credit they have moved Walt into the view catagory he insists he paid a premium price to have. This will be debated with DRI after Walt has returned home. At least for this trip, DRI has provided Walt with the view he insists that he owns. That, IMO, was the right thing for DRI to do for Walt. 

Of course stress has still been introdcued to Walt's vacation. Hopefully his paperwork will bear out his contention that he paid a premium for an ocean front only timeshare week and DRI will acknowledge that without any further action required. If, however, Walt purchased his week and his contract does not specifiy that his is an ocean front only view, then his next vacation at KBC may have a different result as to the view he's given.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

dougp26364 said:


> What will be of most importance is Walt's paperwork and what view it guarentee's him. If it says he bought a Lincoln rather than a Ford, he shouldn't have to fight each time he checks in to get the view for which he's paid. Walt bought with Embassy which was taken over by Sunterra which was purchased by DRI. That's three management/developers in 8 years. Mistakes are bound to happen with that many changes in both sales and reservations.


Minor point of clarification.  Embassy was never the developer and never had any ownership.  The Embassy association was solely a franchise arrangement.

The developer was a limited partnership, the general partner in which was Sunterra at the time Walt purchased.  (The original general was Marc Resorts, which became Signature, which was then acquired by Sunterra.)

After Hilton decided not to purchase the resorts about four years ago, Sunterra bought out the partnerships and dropped the Embassy affiliation.   Sunterra was then acquired by DRI.

So there has really been only one real change in control, and the problems Walt is having apparently originate before that change in control.


----------



## Werner

Steve, Doug;  Do you remember a few years ago someone with a week at Poipu said that she had purchased an early contract from the developer there, Poipu Partners I think, that gave them the right to reserve any unit, not just any view category, but any specific unit they wanted.  I forgot what the category was called.  Apparently Poipu Partner's/Embassy/Sunterra honored their reservation requests (for the best corner Ocean Front units) for years because they had developer inventory.  Eventually the developer's inventory shrunk to the point where they could no longer support that commitment and they were assigned to generic Ocean Front.  They were angry and eventually found out that their contract/deed was actually written for generic Ocean Front.  The special agreement was not embedded in the documents.  However, for some reason the reservation people knew to assign them to their preferred units until the inventory could no longer support it.  

This maybe what is happening to Walt and any other phantom Deluxe Ocean Front owners at KBC.  Sunterra/Diamond played the game as long they could and finally gave up.  Kinda like Bernie Madoff.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Werner said:


> Steve, Doug;  Do you remember a few years ago someone with a week at Poipu said that she had purchased an early contract from the developer there, Poipu Partners I think, that gave them the right to reserve any unit, not just any view category, but any specific unit they wanted.  I forgot what the category was called.  Apparently Poipu Partner's/Embassy/Sunterra honored their reservation requests (for the best corner Ocean Front units) for years because they had developer inventory.  Eventually the developer's inventory shrunk to the point where they could no longer support that commitment and they were assigned to generic Ocean Front.  They were angry and eventually found out that their contract/deed was actually written for generic Ocean Front.  The special agreement was not embedded in the documents.  However, for some reason the reservation people knew to assign them to their preferred units until the inventory could no longer support it.
> 
> This maybe what is happening to Walt and any other phantom Deluxe Ocean Front owners at KBC.  Sunterra/Diamond played the game as long they could and finally gave up.  Kinda like Bernie Madoff.



That's called a float-float ownership. I have one of those; I still use it to reserve ocean front units.  The status and rights of the unit is written into the timeshare documents. (In the Disclosure Statement those units are identified as "Type II units".) As far as I know there haven't been any changes at all in those units or their usage rights.


----------



## Werner

Does that mean that you can literally reserve a specific unit ("reserve", not just "request" like all of us can)?  

I'm afraid that there is no hope that this discussion will clarify anything!  I just looked at my Disclosure Statement and it says that all 2BR units, all 201 of them, are Type II units, including my Ocean Views.  That would include all Garden, Partial Ocean View, Ocean View and Ocean Front.  No wonder Cloobeck wants to simplify.  No two memberships/deeds operate under the same rules/constraints.  No wonder the front line personnel that interact with customers appear to make so many mistakes.   Who would not make mistakes?  

Anyway, I hope Walt finds that his temporary "fix" is a permanent one and gets embedded into his documents.  I'm sure that someday I'll have my own tale of wo to tell.  Each visit always leads to some new revelation reminding us about how little we still understand about the timeshare process.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Werner said:


> Does that mean that you can literally reserve a specific unit ("reserve", not just "request" like all of us can)?
> 
> I'm afraid that there is no hope that this discussion will clarify anything!  I just looked at my Disclosure Statement and it says that all 2BR units, all 201 of them, are Type II units, including my Ocean Views.  That would include all Garden, Partial Ocean View, Ocean View and Ocean Front.  No wonder Cloobeck wants to simplify.  No two memberships/deeds operate under the same rules/constraints.  No wonder the front line personnel that interact with customers appear to make so many mistakes.   Who would not make mistakes?


When you make a reservation you reserve into a specific view category.  You can also put in a request for a specific room, but they won't formally confirm your room assignment until check-in.  I always check with Ohana to find out what rooms are available for specific check-in days, then make my reservation and put in my room request.

If your disclosure statement only mentions Type II units then that statement is an early one from the period before view categories were established.  When view categories were established, all sold inventory remained Type II, and all unsold inventory was assigned to a view category and became II-A, II-B, II-C, or II-D.  My disclosure very clearly states that an owner of a Type II unit can reserve any available unit, wheras the other owner types are restricted to reserving only in their associated view category. 

The only exception is that an owner can reserve at a lower view category, provided that someone in that lower view category can be bumped up to a better view category.  That might not always happen.  If an ocean front owner puts in a request too late in the year, at a time when there is no remaining unreserved ocean front inventory, that ocean front owner can't downgrade to a lower view category even if space is available. That's because there would be no way to balance inventory by moving an owner from the lower view category into ocean front.

The float-float (Type II) owner isn't restricted that way; if it's available the owner can take it.

+++

When we affiliated our week with the Club, we negotiated an agreement that we can always reserve any unit in any view category in any week using our 10,000 point allotment.


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## Walt

*If You Want See the Ocean Deluxe Views From KBC Go Here!*

http://www.timeshareforums.com/foru...ali-beach-club-owners-problem.html#post297602


Keep in mind that all Ocean Deluxe Views views are considered equal to each other according to DRI.  Post Number 19 has the pictures.

Which View would you pay extra for?

Walt


----------



## Walt

*What I Don't Understand ......*



T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Minor point of clarification.  Embassy was never the developer and never had any ownership.  The Embassy association was solely a franchise arrangement.
> 
> The developer was a limited partnership, the general partner in which was Sunterra at the time Walt purchased.  (The original general was Marc Resorts, which became Signature, which was then acquired by Sunterra.)
> 
> After Hilton decided not to purchase the resorts about four years ago, Sunterra bought out the partnerships and dropped the Embassy affiliation.   Sunterra was then acquired by DRI.
> 
> So there has really been only one real change in control, and the problems Walt is having apparently originate before that change in control.



They we bought, Embassy only offered weeks and membership to RCI.  When we came back 2 years later, Embassy wanted us to buy into their club.  They wanted us to convert in to their club and that would allow us to trade into other Sunterra resorts with what I believe thay called Sun-Option. Trades would be done with membership into II. 

If when we bought Sunterra owned the Embassy, why didn't they push Sunterra at that time?

Since we only wanted to use our week, we did not join the sunterra club.

Walt


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Walt said:


> If when we bought Sunterra owned the Embassy, why didn't they push Sunterra at that time?



All of the Embassy resorts were separate from the Sunterra operation.  I don't know why they didn't terminate the Embassy relationship and fold those resorts into Club Sunterra soon after the notion of building an Embassy timeshare chain ended.

I suspect, though, that part of the reason was that the Embassy resorts were viewed as significantly higher quality than the Sunterra resorts; by putting them in with Sunterra they would be less valuable.  

Also  I think that Sunterra was hoping they could sell the Embassy resorts to someone else; that would be easier if the resorts weren't part of Club Sunterra. They didn't become part of Sunterra until after Hilton ended negotiations to buy Ka'anapali and Po'ipu.

With re


----------



## Walt

*Is This View Worth Fighting For?*



dougp26364 said:


> When Walt purchased, Deluxe Ocean View was intended as Ocean Front and owners were charged a premium. Now, they've expanded that catagory to include views that are not ocean front.
> 
> If you paid $2,000 more for an ocean front unit, wouldn't you be ticked to learn that you were now lumped into a catagory that would put you in an ocean side unit? If Walt wanted ocean side, he could have saved his money and paid for ocean side. But that's not what he wanted. He wanted ocean front and he paid a premium for ocean front.
> 
> What's wrong is Walt paid for one view but is now given a view that he could have had for less money. If you pay for the Lincoln but get a Ford Focus instead, you'd be ticked too.



Yes, we paid more for an Deluxe Ocean Front Unit. Are all Deluxe Ocean Views equal? 

Walt 

*Do you really think that this View.........*






*And these Views are all Deluxe Ocean Views*


----------



## readyalready

Walt said:


> Yes, we paid more for an Deluxe Ocean Front Unit. Are all Deluxe Ocean Views equal?
> 
> Walt
> 
> []



There is no comparison between the ocean views and the deluxe (ocean front) views, I completely agree with you.  Besides the premium paid for the view you are not getting I think there is an intangible view difference, when you have 180 degree views out the window and balcony it does make a vacation better, it really does...

Good luck, I hope you get some satisfaction.


----------



## dougp26364

Walt said:


> Yes, we paid more for an Deluxe Ocean Front Unit. Are all Deluxe Ocean Views equal?
> 
> Walt
> 
> *Do you really think that this View.........*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *And these Views are all Deluxe Ocean Views*




My point exactly. I knew that at Ocean Pointe, where we own ocean front, there is a huge difference in the view between Ocean front and ocean view. It was enough that we paid the additional money to always be assured of an ocean front unit. The vista's just looking out the windows in the morning are worth the price paid to us and, having coffee on the balcony while getting a full panoramic view of the ocean is well worth the price and not having to look across at another building or parking lot with a bit of the ocean viewable off the the side.

I sincerely hope that Embassy put it in writing very clearly what view you were to have and that you can prove this to DRI, thus eliminating further stress for your vacations at this resort.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

dougp26364 said:


> My point exactly. I knew that at Ocean Pointe, where we own ocean front, there is a huge difference in the view between Ocean front and ocean view. It was enough that we paid the additional money to always be assured of an ocean front unit. The vista's just looking out the windows in the morning are worth the price paid to us and, having coffee on the balcony while getting a full panoramic view of the ocean is well worth the price and not having to look across at another building or parking lot with a bit of the ocean viewable off the the side.
> 
> I sincerely hope that Embassy put it in writing very clearly what view you were to have and that you can prove this to DRI, thus eliminating further stress for your vacations at this resort.



The differences in your photos are essentially the same as the differences at Po'ipu betweeen ocean view and ocean front.


----------



## JIMinNC

Walt,

I haven't been active on TUG for at least a couple of years, but occasionally check the board and I saw this thread and thought I could add some clarification.

We purchased at Kaanapali in 1999, shortly after they began sales in 1998. At that time the view classifications were Scenic (1A), Ocean View (1B), Deluxe Ocean View (1C), and Two-Bedroom (2). I do not think the Kaanapali property has ever had a category called "Ocean Front."

According to our Disclosure Statement, back then, the Timeshare Program only included 27 units out of the 413 total units at the resort. The remainder were in the Embassy hotel program. According to the Disclosure, the Developer has the right to add units to the Timeshare Program provided the units added to a particular category "shall have a similar profile in terms of number of bedrooms." Note that there is no restriction on view, only in number of bedrooms, so the Developer has considerable latitude in designating what view category a newly-added unit should fit into. When you purchased, I'm sure additional units had been added into the program over the 27 in 1999, but whatever that number was, those were the only units that were classified into a particular category.

In looking at the units designated as 1C (Deluxe Ocean View) in my Disclosure, in those early days, all of them were in locations that most would call "ocean front," but they were classifed as Deluxe Ocean View. Over time, it would appear as more and more units were transferred into the Timeshare Program, units that had views somewhat inferior to the *original* Deluxe Ocean View units were classified as Deluxe Ocean View because their views were deemed to be sufficiently superior to those designated simply as Ocean View.

I don't think they have actually changed classifications of individual units - I think that would be prohibited by the deed - but the  range of views that are considered as Deluxe Ocean View has just expanded. As a DOV owner, they have the right to place you in any unit which has a 1C classification - a classification that now includes a wider variety of views than it originally did.

We own a two-bedroom and since there is no view classification for those units, they can place us in any category 2 unit. Some of the 2BR units have better views and larger lanais, so we always request specific units when we make our reservation. We have alway received our first or second choice. So when you reserve, you can request specific Deluxe Ocean View units that have the specific views you prefer, and I would think they will try to accomodate as best as they can.

Also, Steve is correct in his explanation of resort ownership history. The resort was orginally developed by West Maui Resort Partners, LP, a limited partnership in which Sunterra was the Managing General Partner. They managed the resort through their subsidiary, Marc Hotels and Resorts, Inc. The Embassy name was franchised and was part of an agreement Sunterra had with Promus Corporation (owner of Embassy) to develop a chain of timeshares under the Embassy name (this is discussed in Paragraph 21 of my Disclosure Statement) that would be separate from Sunterra's own brand. After Hilton bought-out Promus, Hilton orginally considered acquiring some of the Embassy timeshares to fold into HGVC, but during the travel downturn after 9-11, the deal fell through. Later, in 2002 or 2003, Sunterra bought out Maui Resort Partners and folded the Kaanapali and Poipu properties into Club Sunterra, until Sunerra was acquired by Diamond.

I hope this helps.

Jim


----------



## Walt

*Thanks Jim For The Information*



JIMMY said:


> Walt,
> 
> I haven't been active on TUG for at least a couple of years, but occasionally check the board and I saw this thread and thought I could add some clarification.
> 
> We purchased at Kaanapali in 1999, shortly after they began sales in 1998. At that time the view classifications were Scenic (1A), Ocean View (1B), Deluxe Ocean View (1C), and Two-Bedroom (2). I do not think the Kaanapali property has ever had a category called "Ocean Front."
> 
> According to our Disclosure Statement, back then, the Timeshare Program only included 27 units out of the 413 total units at the resort. The remainder were in the Embassy hotel program. According to the Disclosure, the Developer has the right to add units to the Timeshare Program provided the units added to a particular category "shall have a similar profile in terms of number of bedrooms." Note that there is no restriction on view, only in number of bedrooms, so the Developer has considerable latitude in designating what view category a newly-added unit should fit into. When you purchased, I'm sure additional units had been added into the program over the 27 in 1999, but whatever that number was, those were the only units that were classified into a particular category.
> 
> In looking at the units designated as 1C (Deluxe Ocean View) in my Disclosure, in those early days, all of them were in locations that most would call "ocean front," but they were classifed as Deluxe Ocean View. Over time, it would appear as more and more units were transferred into the Timeshare Program, units that had views somewhat inferior to the *original* Deluxe Ocean View units were classified as Deluxe Ocean View because their views were deemed to be sufficiently superior to those designated simply as Ocean View.
> 
> I don't think they have actually changed classifications of individual units - I think that would be prohibited by the deed - but the  range of views that are considered as Deluxe Ocean View has just expanded. As a DOV owner, they have the right to place you in any unit which has a 1C classification - a classification that now includes a wider variety of views than it originally did.
> 
> We own a two-bedroom and since there is no view classification for those units, they can place us in any category 2 unit. Some of the 2BR units have better views and larger lanais, so we always request specific units when we make our reservation. We have alway received our first or second choice. So when you reserve, you can request specific Deluxe Ocean View units that have the specific views you prefer, and I would think they will try to accomodate as best as they can.
> 
> Also, Steve is correct in his explanation of resort ownership history. The resort was orginally developed by West Maui Resort Partners, LP, a limited partnership in which Sunterra was the Managing General Partner. They managed the resort through their subsidiary, Marc Hotels and Resorts, Inc. The Embassy name was franchised and was part of an agreement Sunterra had with Promus Corporation (owner of Embassy) to develop a chain of timeshares under the Embassy name (this is discussed in Paragraph 21 of my Disclosure Statement) that would be separate from Sunterra's own brand. After Hilton bought-out Promus, Hilton orginally considered acquiring some of the Embassy timeshares to fold into HGVC, but during the travel downturn after 9-11, the deal fell through. Later, in 2002 or 2003, Sunterra bought out Maui Resort Partners and folded the Kaanapali and Poipu properties into Club Sunterra, until Sunerra was acquired by Diamond.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Jim



It does help. 

Am I right in saying I bought a Deluxe Ocean Front Unit?   Yes, because that is what I was sold and that is what I bought.

Was there a mistaken on my part in understanding what I bought?  No.

I told the saleslady that I would only buy a *Deluxe Ocean Front.*  And that is what she called it.  My wife and I both heard her say, "Whenever you come back to the Embassy, you will always have a Deluxe Ocean Front Unit."

Well, I guess you can say since the Embassy is now the KBC, then, what she say is true.  I have always had a Deluxe Ocean Front Unit when it was called the Embassy.    

Do I think I was taken?  *Yes, I was taken.*  As well as many other buyers at that time. 

The first thing I will do when I get home is get my Embassy Book out and see if they have a defination for Ohana View.  I will also see what unit was assigned to my deed. Since they knew that they were lying about the Deluxe Ocean Front unit, I would be willing to bet that have the contract written as you stated.

I think I may have the saleslady's notes with the words Ocean Front written on them.  For whatever, that is worth.

I will be talking to DRI next week. It will be interesting how they handle my problem.

I can say that they did move me into an Deluxe Ocean Front Unit for this vacation.  So, they did seem to want to work with me.

Walt


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Walt said:


> I think I may have the saleslady's notes with the words Ocean Front written on them.  For whatever, that is worth.
> 
> I will be talking to DRI next week. It will be interesting how they handle my problem.



think those notes are likely worth quite a bit.  It strengthens your case.  And even though you aren't dealing with Sunterra anymore, cleaning up Sunterra messes such as this does seem to be something to which DRI is paying attention.  They put a lot of effort  - and money - into fixing up the European mess.


----------



## Walt

*Does Anyone Have The Update Point Values For The KBC?*

I would like to have the points needed from the KBC Club membership to get into each 1 Bedroom View for 1 week.

Walt


----------



## JIMinNC

Walt said:


> It does help.
> 
> I think I may have the saleslady's notes with the words Ocean Front written on them.  For whatever, that is worth.
> 
> I will be talking to DRI next week. It will be interesting how they handle my problem.
> 
> I can say that they did move me into an Deluxe Ocean Front Unit for this vacation.  So, they did seem to want to work with me.
> 
> Walt



I agree it sounds like the saleslady led you astray in her use of "Ocean Front" - although since all "Deluxe Ocean View" units were, in fact, ocean front at the time of your purchase, she was probably making a true statement based on the facts in place *at that time*. In 2001, she may not have known that in two, three, or four years, as additional units were transferred from the hotel to the Timeshare Program, that management would make the decision to classify non-ocean front units as Deluxe Ocean View.

But I do agree with Steve that if you can find her notes, it can only help your case in the future when you make your reservation. As I said above, KBC does allow owners to request specific units, so just pick a bunch of ocean front units that you like and include those in your reservation request as a special request. If you can produce the notes, they might be able to annotate your account in some way to be sure to always place you in an ocean front room if at all possible.


Jim


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## T_R_Oglodyte

JIMMY said:


> As I said above, KBC does allow owners to request specific units, so just pick a bunch of ocean front units that you like and include those in your reservation request as a special request. If you can produce the notes, they might be able to annotate your account in some way to be sure to always place you in an ocean front room if at all possible.



You can do better than that.  Because the system is set up for one week stays, each room has a specific day of the week that is check-in for that unit.  If you are arriving on a Saturday, it doesn't do you any good to request rooms that are Friday or Sunday check-in.  

The corollary is that on any given day, the available pool of units that Walt might want is smaller than the total number of units he is interested in.  Then he also needs to be sure that he isn't requesting a room that has already been assigned to someone else.

So what I do is I contact the resort and ask what rooms in my desired view category are available on the days that are my possible check-in dates.  After I find the combination of room and check-in date that works for me, I make the reservation and submit my request.


----------



## Walt

*Thank Again Jim*

I will be talking to Management next week.  I will give you more details after the meeting.


Walt  



JIMMY said:


> I agree it sounds like the saleslady led you astray in her use of "Ocean Front" - although since all "Deluxe Ocean View" units were, in fact, ocean front at the time of your purchase, she was probably making a true statement based on the facts in place *at that time*. In 2001, she may not have known that in two, three, or four years, as additional units were transferred from the hotel to the Timeshare Program, that management would make the decision to classify non-ocean front units as Deluxe Ocean View.
> 
> But I do agree with Steve that if you can find her notes, it can only help your case in the future when you make your reservation. As I said above, KBC does allow owners to request specific units, so just pick a bunch of ocean front units that you like and include those in your reservation request as a special request. If you can produce the notes, they might be able to annotate your account in some way to be sure to always place you in an ocean front room if at all possible.
> 
> 
> Jim


----------



## Walt

*Why Was I Given the North Side of KBC?*

From DRI's Website:

Hawaii - Maui

Ka’anapali Beach Club 104 Ka’anapali Shores Place | Maui, Hawaii 96761 | 808.661.2000
Accommodation Max/Private Occupancy Low Season Mid Season High Season Peak Season
1 Bedroom - Scenic View 4*/2 - - 6,500 9,000
1 Bedroom - Ocean View 4*/2 - - 8,500 11,500
1 Bedroom - Deluxe Ocean View 4*/2 - - 11,500 16,000
2 Bedroom 6/4 - - 15,500 21,000
2 Bedroom - Presidential Suite 6/4 - - 44,000 54,500
2009 Weeks - - 1-14 17-26, 28-47, 49-50 15-16, 27, 48, 51-52
2010 Weeks - - 1-13, 16-26, 28-47, 49-50 14-15, 27, 48, 51-53

Nightly midweek rates are 10% of week rate. Check-in day for weekly occupancy: Friday / Saturday / Sunday. Deeded owners any day. *Five if one occupant is 16 years or younger.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++

First of all I am a Deluxe Ocean View (Front) owner of a deeded week. I have an Every Other Year (Odd Years) ownership. When I get home I will check to see what Unit shows on the deed.

My account shows this on the DRI overview page.

*Kaanapali Beach Club *

*Week: #51 *

*Unit: 1 BD Dlx Ocean *

*Season: Red *

*Points: 8,000 *

*Status: Active*

If what I see is correct, the week of Jan 10 to Jan 17, 2009 is High Season.

It would appear that DRI assigned me 8000 points per year or 16000 points total for Every Odd Year.

From the Grid it appears that I would need 11,500 points for the week Jan. 10 to Jan. 17, 2009, *if I was a Points owner*. So I would assume that I have more than enough credit or points to get a Deluxe Ocean View Unit.

I made the reservation 1 full year before Jan 10, 2009.

I got to the resort by 11:00 am and check in but they did not give me the Unit number until 4:00 pm when the Unit was ready. In the past Units were given out so that the early arrival got the best units. Yet, at 4:00 pm KBC was going to give me a North Side Unit (I think it was #614). 

By DRI 70% Ocean View = Deluxe Ocean View definition, I don't think these North Side Units should not be considered Deluxe Ocean View since I don't think the view is 70% Ocean view. But let us just say the Pool side Units (they also are considered Deluxe Ocean View by DRI) are far better than the North Side.

My question is why was I given the worse (North Side Unit) when I arrived? 

Because I protested I got Unit #406 (Pool Side) and then #512 (Ocean Front) for the rest of my stay of 2 weeks.

So DRI made me happy for this trip. But what will happen on our next trip in 2011?

I also heard that DRI doesn't want Week Owners at KBC. So did they put me in a bad unit in order to sell the Club and pay another $19,000 discounted from $33,000 for 7000 points?

Walt


----------



## Walt

*Thank Steve*



T_R_Oglodyte said:


> You can do better than that.  Because the system is set up for one week stays, each room has a specific day of the week that is check-in for that unit.  If you are arriving on a Friday, it doesn't do you any good to request rooms that are Friday or Sunday check-in.
> 
> The corollary is that on any given day, the available pool of units that Walt might want is smaller than the total number of units he is interested in.  Then he also needs to be sure that he isn't requesting a room that has already been assigned to someone else.
> 
> So what I do is I contact the resort and ask what rooms in my desired view category are available on the days that are my possible check-in dates.  After I find the combination of room and check-in date that works for me, I make the reservation and submit my request.



This is some information I would really use in the future.

Walt


----------



## Walt

*Wow!!!!!!!!!*



lv_maui said:


> I would first ask for the general manager to be contacted immediately to discuss the problem.  There is no reason that your problem can not be escalated on a weekend.  If you seem to get the run around, I would email Simon Crawford-Welch, as he just sent an announcement to the DRI yahoo group asking that we contact him before assuming that you are getting ripped off ("my words").  His address is simon.crawford-welch@diamondresorts.com
> 
> From my knowledge of the resort, you are guaranteed that view but in a roving number of units that have that view.  The guy who really knows the answer is Dave Weiss, the Broker at the inception, but he is no longer with them.




I send an email to Simon Crawford-Welch on Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:38 am. Maui time.

I received an email on Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:45 am from Simon Crawford-Welch.  It was not a form letter.  It was addressed to me by name.  

He wrote, "You have my commitment that we will respond to your concerns in a timely fashion.

Please allow us a day or two to address the issues you raise."

About 12:05 pm on Sat. 17,2009, on my way to Mama's Fish House, I received a cell phone call from DRI from London, England.

I don't know how this will turn out, but they seem to want to work with me.

Walt


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## Bill4728

Anything new Walt??


----------



## Walt

*We Just Got Back From Maui Today at 2:30 pm Central time*



Bill4728 said:


> Anything new Walt??



We had a 10:00 pm flight Friday and got home at 2:30 pm Saturday.  So I need some time to really look at my Embassy Papers

I am still working on it and it may take 2 years before I will know If I made any headway.

It appears that the Reservation Manager will try to get me into a Deluxe Ocean Front Unit in the future.  But that is a promise and I would rather have a paper which states I own an ocean front Unit.

*My deed shows I own Unit #611 on week 51.  Unit #611 is an Ocean Front Unit.  I also have the saleslady's note where she wrote Ocean Front.  And the words "Ocean Front" shows up in regard to the 2 bedrooms.*

I Know there are others that may have been scammed by Subterra or whoever ay KBC.

If we could get other week's owners of KBC to post that they bought Ocean Front and paid extra for the Ocean front at KBC that would help.   The State of Hawaii would have to at least listen to several owner of KBC with the same 
complaint.

And perhaps DRI would be forced honor our deeds and contracts.

But tomorrow I will have to look at my Embassy Papers to see if there is any help there.

Walt


----------



## Walt

*After Reading The Disclosure*

The Disclosure is 21 pages long with over another 25 pages of exhibit pages. 

As I wrote we were told and sold an Deluxe Ocean *Front* (View) Unit. I was willing to pay more for a Deluxe Ocean *Front* Unit.

It appears others were also told and sold a Deluxe Ocean Front Unit. Units on each floor....x08, x09, x10, x11, x12 are the true Deluxe Ocean Front Units. 

It appears that DRI is saying there was never a Deluxe Ocean Front View. That most Pool Side Units and North Side Units on the Ohana Tower are now considered Deluxe Ocean Views.

By the pictures I posted a reasonable person can see that Pool Side Units and North Side are not *LIKE *views of a Ocean Front Unit.

At the time I bought the price break down according to Exhibit 4 was:

Type 1A.....Scenic View......Every Year...$18,890...Odd/Even Years...$12,900

Type 1B.....Ocean View.....Every Year....$21,890...Odd/Even Years...$15,900

Type 1C....Deluxe Ocean View...Every Year...$25,890...Odd/Even Years... $17,900.

There are some interesting points in the Disclosure, Exhibit 1.

Type 1A.......Scenic View........One Bedroom with sleeping accommodations for up to four persons and a *view of the countryside*.

Type 1B.......Ocean View.........One Bedroom with sleeping accomodations for up to four persons and a *partial ocean View*.

Type 1C.......Deluxe Ocean View.....One Bedroom with sleeping accomodations for up to four persons and a *Deluxe Ocean View*.

Since an Ocean View is a *partial *view of the Ocean, would a reasonable person think that a Deluxe Ocean View would mean an Ocean Front unit with a *total ocean view*?

Would a reasonable person, that has a deed that states he owns Unit #611 *which is an Ocean Front Unit *and a Type 1C unit, also think he owns an Ocean Front Unit? 

Walt


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## Werner

Walt, In 2006 there was a Deluxe Ocean Front in Club Sunterra because we traded into one from Poipu.  Unfortunately, we don't have any official documentation, the original confirmation is gone, only Dollie's review which says DOF in the TUG reviews.  I just checked the 2004-5, 2005-6, 2007-8 SunOptions directories and they do *NOT *show any DOF's, ever.   At the time we made the reservation I did not notice that the printed directory view categories did not agree with the computer reservations categories.  

Thinking about it, the trading company can define view categories to be anything they want and trade them for any number of points they want since the units they are trading are not being used by their owners.  However, when you, as a non-club member/owner, want to use your deeded category, the reservationist has to abide by those restrictions because the club definitions are not relevant.   

Even for those of us who are deeded owners *AND *in the Club, the deeded categories have to take precedence.  I don't agree with those who say that the club can legally redefine point values in a way which would prevent a deeded owner/club member from using a unit *in their deeded category* and *within their deeded seasonal window*.  Those room size, view, and seasonal categories should be visible on the computer, to you and to the reservationist, mine are.  

I think Sunterra redefined the views for club trading purposes, which is probably fully legal, and may not even be immoral, and somehow your ownership has been swallowed up into the club, which should be both illegal and immoral.  

In a prior post you indicated that you were listed somewhere as being in the DRI club with points even though you didn't join and presumably don't pay dues.  That may, in the end, be the issue, somehow you are listed as a club member but they failed to list your unit category.  Maybe the "fix" for Sunterra's view category problem was to give you "free" membership in Sunterra while ignoring the deeded restrictions.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Werner said:


> Even for those of us who are deeded owners *AND *in the Club, the deeded categories have to take precedence.  I don't agree with those who say that the club can legally redefine point values in a way which would prevent a deeded owner/club member from using a unit *in their deeded category* and *within their deeded seasonal window*.  Those room size, view, and seasonal categories should be visible on the computer, to you and to the reservationist, mine are.



Maybe we're splitting hairs here, Werner, but I disagree.

When you attach a deeded week to the Club, you sign a piece of paper that says you assign all of the reservation rights associated with your deed to the club.  How can you say you as a deeded owner have any preference to anything when you signed a piece of paper relinquishing any preferences you might have had?  Whatever preferences you had with that deed are now the Club's.

Yes, you do get a points allocation that is corresponds with the value for the units associated with your deed.  But after attaching the deed to the club the only thing the Club see is the number of points you own and the Home Resort Advantage associated with those rights.

But you no longer have any *any* inherent right to any view category.  The Club doesn't care squat about what view category is on your deed.   Even though your deed might be for an ocean front unit you have no more right to a 15,500 point ocean front unit than does the Club member who owns a partial ocean view unit and who has 15,500 points in their account because they rolled over points from a previous year.

Once you attach that week to the Club the resort no longer has any obligation to ensure inventory is available for your use to correspond with your week ownership.  The Club also does not give you any preferences for your view category. Inside the Club it's first come, first served for whatever inventory is available.  The fact that your deed might be for ocean front doesn't result in your reservations being processed ahead of anybody else There is no inventory set aside for use only for owners of ocean front property. 

I just don't see how you say you have some kind of preference inside the Club for a unit associated with your deeded view category when anyone who has the required number of points has just as much right to that view category as you do.


----------



## Walt

Werner said:


> Walt, In 2006 there was a Deluxe Ocean Front in Club Sunterra because we traded into one from Poipu.  Unfortunately, we don't have any official documentation, the original confirmation is gone, only Dollie's review which says DOF in the TUG reviews.  I just checked the 2004-5, 2005-6, 2007-8 SunOptions directories and they do *NOT *show any DOF's, ever.   At the time we made the reservation I did not notice that the printed directory view categories did not agree with the computer reservations categories.
> 
> Thinking about it, the trading company can define view categories to be anything they want and trade them for any number of points they want since the units they are trading are not being used by their owners.  However, when you, as a non-club member/owner, want to use your deeded category, the reservationist has to abide by those restrictions because the club definitions are not relevant.
> 
> Even for those of us who are deeded owners *AND *in the Club, the deeded categories have to take precedence.  I don't agree with those who say that the club can legally redefine point values in a way which would prevent a deeded owner/club member from using a unit *in their deeded category* and *within their deeded seasonal window*.  Those room size, view, and seasonal categories should be visible on the computer, to you and to the reservationist, mine are.
> 
> I think Sunterra redefined the views for club trading purposes, which is probably fully legal, and may not even be immoral, and somehow your ownership has been swallowed up into the club, which should be both illegal and immoral.
> 
> *In a prior post you indicated that you were listed somewhere as being in the DRI club with points even though you didn't join and presumably don't pay dues.  That may, in the end, be the issue, somehow you are listed as a club member but they failed to list your unit category.  Maybe the "fix" for Sunterra's view category problem was to give you "free" membership in Sunterra while ignoring the deeded restrictions.*


==========================================================


On DRI web site I do have 8000 points assigned to my account for a total of 16000 points to be used in the ODD Years.  

However, I am not a DRI Club member.  So why would they assign points to me?

I also found out from the Reservation Manager that she only handles the Week's reservation.  So it appears that the Club may be blocking out units and the Week's Owners may be getting the leftovers. 


Walt


----------



## Walt

*This doesn't seem true for weeks owners*



T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Maybe we're splitting hairs here, Werner, but I disagree.
> 
> When you attach a deeded week to the Club, you sign a piece of paper that says you assign all of the reservation rights associated with your deed to the club.  How can you say you as a deeded owner have any preference to anything when you signed a piece of paper relinquishing any preferences you might have had?  Whatever preferences you had with that deed are now the Club's.
> 
> Yes, you do get a points allocation that is corresponds with the value for the units associated with your deed.  But after attaching the deed to the club the only thing the Club see is the number of points you own and the Home Resort Advantage associated with those rights.
> 
> But you no longer have any *any* inherent right to any view category.  The Club doesn't care squat about what view category is on your deed.   Even though your deed might be for an ocean front unit you have no more right to a 15,500 point ocean front unit than does the Club member who owns a partial ocean view unit and who has 15,500 points in their account because they rolled over points from a previous year.
> 
> Once you attach that week to the Club the resort no longer has any obligation to ensure inventory is available for your use to correspond with your week ownership.  The Club also does not give you any preferences for your view category. *Inside the Club it's first come, first served for whatever inventory is available*.  The fact that your deed might be for ocean front doesn't result in your reservations being processed ahead of anybody else There is no inventory set aside for use only for owners of ocean front property.
> 
> I just don't see how you say you have some kind of preference inside the Club for a unit associated with your deeded view category when anyone who has the required number of points has just as much right to that view category as you do.




*Inside the Club it's first come, first served for whatever inventory is available*

When I asked why I didn't get a Ocean Front Unit since I made the reservation 1 full year before check in, the Reservation Manager said it really wasn't the reason I was going to be placed in a North Side Unit.  That first come was not a factor for getting an ocean Front Unit in the weeks program.

Walt


----------



## Werner

Steve,  I agree with everything you said, I think  .  The "if available" is always assumed when talking about floating weeks/floating units reservations and I'm not claiming priorty over other club members.   Even my deed says floating unit (within the view category)/ floating week so I certainly know that I don't have priority claim on any unit or week.  The only issue I'm concerned about is the notion that the Club could alter its point scheme, or in Walt's case, its unit categories, and charge me more points for the unit in my deed than it was worth when I joined the club.  That's where we break lock.  

Assuming that I haven't spent the points elsewhere and that the unit type is available, I expect to be able to spend Christmas week in my home resort for my annual points allotment, which is equal to the points value that unit type had when I joined and which is less then the "Peak Season" points shown in the brochure.  I assume that's why my on-line membership info lists my unit type and that it is a red week, which exactly what it says in the deed.  Happily I am not interested in Peak Season's so I won't be testing this out but I am more concerned about point inflation and unit redefinition.



> The Club doesn't care squat about what view category is on your deed.



It cares enough to show the important data in the membership summary.

Are you suggesting that DRI could decide to raise the point value for a unit category and a deeded owner would have to buy more points to get into the same unit type (assuming availability, etc)?  This deeded owner would just quit the club and I assume every other owner would do the same.

PS, I am becoming more and more convinced that there are almost as many membership categories in DRI as there are members.  Besides variations in deed types, trusts, etc., each of us has a different method of buying our units, joining the club, negotiating special considerations.  The most important piece of paper you get when you make a reservation is the printed confirmation.  If it doesn't say what you think is should you have to get on the phone.  We make home resort reservations by phone (mainly because a few years ago the web site didn't accept reservations more than 10 months out) and confusions are resolved immediately (there haven't been many).


----------



## Walt

*So If I Ask For My Deeded Week*

According to my deed at KBC I own a Deluxe Ocean View Unit #611 week 51.  I own a float week.  Since this Unit could not be a fixed week for anyone else, what would happen if I asked for Unit #611 for week 51 as my owner's week to use exactly one year before the day I'm able to?

Walt


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Walt said:


> I also found out from the Reservation Manager that she only handles the Week's reservation.  So it appears that the Club may be blocking out units and the Week's Owners may be getting the leftovers.
> 
> 
> Walt



I have discussed how the reservation system works with management personnel in Hawai'i and I have posted that information in detail in other posts regarding DRI and Poi'ipu.  I won't repeat that; do a search if you want to pull it up.

I will repeat some in brief.  

You are absolutely correct that the Reservation Manager at the resort only handles weeks requests.  That's because the entire inventory system is set up in weeks, and as far as the resort is concerned, the DRI Club is simply a multiple weeks owner just like any other person who owns multiple weeks.  The Club then has a right to reserve inventory that corresponds with whatever ownerships have been assigned to the Club. 

The only tweak that occurs specifically with the DRI Club is that the inventory rights that the Club has are straightlined across the year.  For example, if the Club has rights to 50% of the ocean front inventory, then on each check in day 50% of the ocean front units available on that check-in day are assigned to the Club.  The remaining 50% of ocean front units on that check-in day then remain available to deeded weeks owners.

The inventory that goes to the Club is then what shows up available to Club members at the DRI site.

++++

Walt - if your deed is not attached to the Club you should be making your reservations directly with the Reservations Manager at the resort.  The inventory that would be available to you would then be the inventory that has been reserved for deeded weeks owners.

++++++

An added comment on room reservations.  All room reservations are made by the resort manager at the resort on a first come, first served basis.  It doesn't make any difference if the reservation is from a Club member or a deeded weeks owner.

Remember that as far as the resort is concerned the Club is like any other owner of multiple weeks.  The reservations system simply sees that a week in a specific view category has been reserved by the Club.  When the Club assigns that week to a member, the Club member can then contact the resort (after the first day that the resort accepts room reservation requests) to make a room request, and resort treats that the same as a request from a deeded weeks owner who has a reservation for that same check-in day.

++++++

The whole process is complicated enough as it is, without trying to graft into it some kind of special considerations for DRI.

It's seldom wise to ascribe to cunning that which can be easily explained by incompetence.


----------



## Walt

*Thanks Steve!*

Hi Steve,

I would really like to say "Thank You" for sharing with us so much of what you know about DRI, the KBC and The Point at Poipu.

Thanks,

Walt


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## Walt

*What if I ask for my deeded unit and week?*



Walt said:


> According to my deed at KBC I own a Deluxe Ocean View Unit #611 week 51.  I own a float week.  Since this Unit could not be a fixed week for anyone else, what would happen if I asked for Unit #611 for week 51 as my owner's week to use exactly one year before the day I'm able to?
> 
> Walt




Steve,

You might have missed this post.  Do you have an answer to this question?

Walt


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## Bill4728

> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by Walt
> According to my deed at KBC I own a Deluxe Ocean View Unit #611 week 51. I own a float week. Since this Unit could not be a fixed week for anyone else, what would happen if I asked for Unit #611 for week 51 as my owner's week to use exactly one year before the day I'm able to?
> 
> Walt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> You might have missed this post. Do you have an answer to this question?
> 
> Walt
Click to expand...


(Not Steve) but when you buy a floating week/floating unit TS, as long as the week on the deed is within the season and unit type you're buying,  the unit on the deed is just legal housekeeping. You have no more right to use that unit and week than any other owner with the same unit type & season.


----------



## Walt

*Was I Misled Into Buying An ocean Front Unit?*

I found that my Disclosure listed a total of 106 Units listed in the Program in 2001.  I asked for a copy of my Discloser I was given a copy that list 413 Units.

Several paragraphs have been added to the one one listed to the Disclosure listing 413 Units. It sppears to me that there are some inconsistencies in both Disclosures.

Example:

Type 1B.......Ocean View.......1 Bedroom.....*Partial* Ocean View

Type 1C.......Deluxe Ocean View......1 Bedroom.....*Deluxe Ocean View*

If Ocean View is *Partial View* then shouldn't Deluxe Ocean View be listed as *FULL* Ocean View or *Ocean Front*? 

Type III........Deluxe Ocean View...........2 Bedroom......*Oceanfront* Location.

Units x08, x09, x10, x11, and x12 (x being the floor) are the units that are *Ocean Front*

Type III was unit #1208 in the 104 Disclosure form. The Location is *Ocean **Front.* And both unit #1208 and unit #1212 in the 413 Disclosure form are listed as *OceanFront.*

So if the 1208 and 1212 units are considered *OceanFront* Units, then it stands to reason that all units x08 and x12 must be *OceanFront* too. And I believe that it also stands to reason that x09, x10, and x11 must be considered *OceanFront* too. Which they are.

According to the Disclosure of 104 units, units 914, 915, and 916, (which are the North Side Units in the Ohana or Front Tower of KBC) are *1B or Ocean View Units*. Therefore, the only unit on the North Side that is considered Deluxe Ocean View is *913.*

The Discloser does list Pool side or x04, x05, x06, or x07 units as 1C or Deluxe Ocean View.

When I arrived at the KBC, the Front Desk was first going to put me either *614 or 615.* These Units are clearly stated as Ocean View. This was in violation of my contract.

In summary, was I misled in the buying of a *Ocean Front* unit?

As we all know, exchanges were not possible into the Ocean Front Units. Sometimes, some fast talkers were able to talk themselves into Ocean Front. While I have been able to trade into the Embassy/KBC, I was *never *able to trade into an Ocean Front unit.

1) I was sold and told I could buy an *Ocean Front* ODD years unit for $13,900. I bought only because I would be getting to stay *Ocean Front* every time I used my owners week. Why would I pay $13,900 for something I could get for an exchange fee Plus $500 (my MF for my exchange week) or about $665?  This is about $400 *less* than my KBC MF for 2009. 

2) Other say they also bought *Ocean Front *Units

3) My deeded week is 611 week 51. This is an Ocean Front Unit. 

4) I had no problem getting an *Ocean Front *Unit in 2002, (my 2001 week), 2003, 2005, and 2007. Only this year 2009 (first time under DRI) did I have problems with getting my Ocean Front Unit.

Walt


----------



## maryw

*KBC*

Hi Walt
Thank you for your last post.
I have had the same problem with the front desk that you have had. Being put on the side units that are OV not OF. (Deluxe Oceanview)
 I did know when I bought my unit after market that some of the side units in the front tower are considered Delux Oceanview.
I am a Fee Simple owner like you. I am worried because I am not part of the Club!! Diamond is going to give less preference to my concerns or request.
I did reserve my room 12 months ago and ask for an oceanfront corner.
this is my fourth visit to KBC and two of the four I had to fight for a good room.
I went last year to the presentation and the women really treated us poorly because we did not want to convert to the Club.
Do you think this might be the case Non club vs club owners in the eyes of DRI.
I will be there Feb 5th 
Mary


----------



## Walt

*Tell Me More*



maryw said:


> Hi Walt
> Thank you for your last post.
> I have had the same problem with the front desk that you have had. Being put on the side units that are OV not OF. (Deluxe Oceanview)
> I did know when I bought my unit after market that some of the side units in the front tower are considered Delux Oceanview.
> I am a Fee Simple owner like you. I am worried because I am not part of the Club!! Diamond is going to give less preference to my concerns or request.
> I did reserve my room 12 months ago and ask for an oceanfront corner.
> this is my fourth visit to KBC and two of the four I had to fight for a good room.
> I went last year to the presentation and the women really treated us poorly because we did not want to convert to the Club.
> Do you think this might be the case Non club vs club owners in the eyes of DRI.
> I will be there Feb 5th
> Mary



When did you buy? Did you buy a Deluxe Ocean View (Front) view?

Do you get informational emails from Bill Burns, our Owner's Board member at KBC?

If I was going to KBC this month I would bring copies of my contract and the Disclosure.  The Disclosure should list that the Units on the North Side of the building with the exception of x13 (x is the floor ie 613, 713) as Ocean View.

Speak up at Check in. Don't let them put you in a North Side Unit such as 615 or 617.


I find it interesting that I have not heard from any Weeks owners that said they got their Ocean Front Unit without any problem at Check in since DRI has taken over from SunTerra.

Walt


----------



## Walt

*I Found This Today.*

Walt  



http://timeshareguru.today.com/about/


*I’m a Platinum Elite owner *and can place requests for you such as early checkin and room preferences! There are requests, not guarantees, but are often honored! The least honored request is for corner rooms (more successful when reservation is made 10-13 months in advance), *but I have very good success with early checkin and ocean front units for the DOV reservations!* You will be my named guest, which means you do not need to attend a timeshare presentation. Please also see my FAQ section just below the pictures!

Kaanapali Beach Club
- * SV = Scenic View, OV = Ocean View, *DOV = Deluxe OV which is in the ocean front section of this ocean front resor*t!Prices for reservations less than 60 days in advance:
- Most of Nov-Dec! SV $650 PCa
- Most of Nov-Dec! OV $850 PCa
- Most of Nov-Dec! DOV $1,200 PCa
- 01/10/2009 - 01/17/2009 1BR DOV $1,200 PCa 
- 01/11/2009 - 01/18/2009 1BR DOV $1,955 PCa drops to $1,200 on 13-Nov-08
- 01/12/2009 - 01/19/2009 1BR DOV $1,955 PCa 
- 01/13/2009 - 01/20/2009 1BR DOV $1,955 PCa 
- 01/14/2009 - 01/21/2009 1BR DOV $1,955 PCa 
- 01/17/2009 - 01/24/2009 2BR OF Presidential $6,500 PCa - The ultimate 2BR Ocean Front Unit!


----------



## maryw

*thank you Walt*

Hi Walt
We do own a delux ocean view. 
I think I bought it about 4 or 5 years ago. 
from Syed who is a broker that knows his stuff. He made sure I knew what I was buying. Very nice person too!!
I will let you know when I get there how it is going. I plan on going to a presentation and letting them know my concerns. 
Thanks Mary


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## dougp26364

maryw said:


> Hi Walt
> We do own a delux ocean view.
> I think I bought it about 4 or 5 years ago.
> from Syed who is a broker that knows his stuff. He made sure I knew what I was buying. Very nice person too!!
> I will let you know when I get there how it is going. I plan on going to a presentation and letting them know my concerns.
> Thanks Mary



If you let a salesman know your concerns, all you've done is waste your time as it will die right there. Never think a salesman really cares about anything other then whether or not you're going to buy. 

I you're going to a presentation to learn about your timeshare, keeping in mind that it's a salesman talking, or for the gifts then you fine. If you going to voice complaints and/or concerns, it's a futile effort. Sure they'll listen but the only talking they're likely to do is at the bar after the office closes and that's only if you make a big enough stink that they think it will make some sort of story to tell other salesmen, who don't really care either.


----------



## Walt

*The Salesman Has Their Own Problems*



dougp26364 said:


> If you let a salesman know your concerns, all you've done is waste your time as it will die right there. Never think a salesman really cares about anything other then whether or not you're going to buy.
> 
> I you're going to a presentation to learn about your timeshare, keeping in mind that it's a salesman talking, or for the gifts then you fine. If you going to voice complaints and/or concerns, it's a futile effort. Sure they'll listen but the only talking they're likely to do is at the bar after the office closes and that's only if you make a big enough stink that they think it will make some sort of story to tell other salesmen, who don't really care either.



The Salesman needs to sell.  While at the KBC last month, I would go down to the presentation area to connect to the internet about 7:45 am each morning.   I would see the salesman in a sales meeting getting a pep talk.  At our presentation another person, (the closer?) came in to check on the salesman.  After the presentation, we had to meet with another person to check out and to check on why the salesman did not sell us. They are under great pressure to sell. 

I agree that they are not the ones to do anything about your concerns.

Walt


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## daventrina

Walt said:


> I am still working on the problem.  DRI is saying there was never a Deluxe Ocean Front unit.
> ...


This is probably true. The were/are called Deluxe Ocean View.
What changed was that early on, the DOV rooms were on the beach. Then they started adding inventory that is called DOV but is not and should be only OV.


----------



## Walt

*I found this on the DRI Web Site*

I think the the Maui Embassy and the Point at Piopu were owned by the same people at the very beginning.

I find it interesting that at the Point at Piopu, Ocean View is "View is *mostly* the ocean"

And *Ocean Front* is "*Full ocean view*."

at the Embassy/KBC 

Ocean View is "*Partial* ocean View."

Deluxe Ocean View is "*Deluxe Ocean View*."

KBC is calling the Pool Side Units and most North side Units as Deluxe Ocean View.


I think it is a stretch to say the Pool Side Unit is a "View of* mostly *the Ocean." The View is mostly of the *Pool*.

And the North Side Unit is really a stretch to be called "View Mostly of the Ocean." The Parking lot and the buildings north of the KBC are the main view.

At Point at Piopu the top Category is *Ocean Front or Full Ocean View.* At the KBC Deluxe Ocean View is the *top Category*. Therefore Deluxe Ocean View should be Ocean Front. 

This is the way it was sold to me. Was I misled, is the Embassy/Sunterra/DRI just changing the Categories or both?

Walt  


From DRI Web Site:

http://www.diamondresortsforums.com/Topic2808-42-1.aspx?Highlight=ocean+front

For future reference, here are the unit view types and descriptions for the Point at Poipu: 


Garden View: No view of ocean; mostly a view of the landscaping and/or pool
Partial Ocean View: Some ocean visible; the remainder of the view is Garden View
Ocean View: View is mostly the ocean with the remainder of the view being Garden View
Ocean Front: Full ocean view


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## Walt

*Have Locations Changed?*

DRI and KBC seem to be calling Units 914, 915, and 916 Deluxe Ocean View now. But they were not in 2001. So, how can the Location get better in these units?

And if 1208 and 1212 are OceanFront, how can 908 and 912 not be Ocean Front? And If 908 and 912 are Ocean Front then 909, 910, and 911 would have to be called OceanFront too.

I think there are enough inconsistency in this Disclosure that it could be called misleading. 

I also saw this on Diamond Resort Owners Web Site.

We were assigned room *1223 *which is on the top floor of the resort BUT it was some distance from the beach. Between our room and the ocean was the mini golf and part of the garden, i.e. our room overlooked the mini golf and garden. 

To our left was another arm of the building that went towards the ocean so we could not see the ocean to the left of us. We had an unobstructed view of the ocean straight ahead and to the right.

The lady at the desk said that our room is classified as a "deluxe ocean view" room because it is on the top floor

1223 is in the Aloha Tower (Back Tower). If they can call 1223 Deluxe Ocean View, I can see the day coming when there will only be Deluxe Ocean View.

So it does appear that DRI has changed some units from Type 1B (Ocean View) to Type 1C (Deluxe Ocean View). 

See Map of KBC Here.

http://tug2.com/ResortImages/Hawaii/Maui/embka_fp.gif


I have sent information to DRI that they asked for. But as of today, I have not heard back from them.



Walt   

*This is my Disclosure from 2001.*



EXHIBIT ''1''

UNIT TYPES AND UNITS IN THE PROGRAM

There are currently a total of 106 units in the program. There are also cunently five types of units in this Program, as follows:

*One Bedroom Units:*

Type 1A: *Scenic View*: One bedroom, with sleeping accommodations for up to four (4) and a view of the countryside.


Type 1B: *Ocean View:* One bedroom, with sleeping accommodation for up to four (4) and a Partial ocean view. 

Type IC: *Deluxe Ocean View*: One bedroom, with sleeping accommodations for up to four (4) and a deluxe ocean view. 


*Two Bedroom Units:*

Type II: *Ocean/Scenic View:* Two bedrooms, with sleeping accommodations for up to six (6) persons and scenic view of the ocean and the countryside.

*Deluxe Suites:*

Type III: 

Two Bedroom Units: *Deluxe Ocean View*: Two bedrooms, with sleeping accommodations for up to slx (6) persons and an *oceanfront location*.

ln accordance with Section 3.C.2, the relative value of each unit Type, in decreasing order, is as follows:

I. Type III
2. Type II
3. Type 1C 
4. Type 1B
5. Type 1A

Example units number of *Type 1C Deluxe Ocean View *on the 9th Floor of the Ohana Tower.

904, 905, 906, and 907. These are Pool Side Units on the Ohana Tower.

908, 909, 910, 911, and 912. These are Ocean Front Units.

913. This is a North Side Unit.

Example unit numbers of *Type 1B Ocean View* on the 9th Floor of the Ohana Tower.

901. 902, 903, 941, and 942. These are Pool Side Units between the Ohana and Aloha Towers. 

914, 915, and 916. These are North Side Units in the Ohana Tower.

917, 918, 919, 920, 921, and 922. These are North Side units between the Ohana Tower and the Aloha Tower (Back Tower).

923, and 940. These are Units in the Aloha Tower.

Example unit numbers of *Type 1A Scenic View* on the 9th Floor of the Ohana Tower.

930, 931, 932, and 933. These are back side of Aloha Tower.

Example of unit numbers of *Type II 2 bedroom Scenic and Ocean View *on the 9th Floor in the Aloha Tower.

923, 929, 934, and 939. These are 2 bedroom in the Aloha Tower.

Example of unit number of *Type III 2 Bedroom Deluxe Ocean View OceanFront *Units on the 12th floor.

1208 and 1212. These are 2 Bedrooms in the Ohana Tower that are on the 12th Floor. I have not seen these units. *Has anyone seen these units? *Are they the same inside the unit as 923, 929, 932, and 939 units? Does location (Ocean Front) make it the Deluxe Ocean View?


----------



## Walt

*From Patrick Duffy of DRI*

_Dr. Walt,
Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you and clarify what you purchased in 2001.
In viewing all the relevant paperwork you purchased as detailed;
Exhibit # 1
"One Bedroom Units"
1) Type 1C----Deluxe Ocean View----"One bedroom, with sleeping accommodations for up to four (4) persons and a deluxe ocean view." This is your Unit 611. There is NO use of the word "Front" within your purchase of Unit # 611.
If one were to buy in the "Deluxe Suites" they would be described in writing as;
1) Type III----Deluxe Ocean View---"Two bedrooms, with sleeping accommodations for up to six (6) persons and an oceanfront location".
As you, Sarah and I spoke. We wished we could accommodate your request, but in absolute fairness to all our members, each are revered, respected and fairly treated in every DRI interaction. 
These are the purchase facts, in written form, and presented to you in 2001.
We thank you once again,


Patrick Duffy_


I was just going to drop this and stop posting on Tug and here about this problem. But Patrick posted his email to me on DiamondResorts-owners@yahoogroups. He made it sound like I wanted special treatment. And all I wanted was what I bought. An Ocean Front Unit. I am really Ticked off now. 

When I asked him, "Why did I buy at the Embassy on 1/24/2001?" he had no answer. 

From my return email to Patrick.

As I asked you "Why would I buy at the Embassy if I could trade into it?" You had no anwer. Well, there is only one answer. Only because I knew I could not trade into an Ocean Front Unit was I willing to buy a week at The Embassy. I wanted to be able to stay in an Ocean Front Unit each time I used my Owner's week at The Embassy. That is why I bought at the Embassy. Who in there right mind would pay $13,900 for a *non Ocean Front *Unit and have a MF of $1045, when he/she could trade into the Embassy with another timeshare week that has a MF of $498 and a RCI exchange fee of $165? 

Yes, the Disclosure is on there side. But, they also know that I and other Owners at the Embassy only bought because we we told we were buying Ocean Front units.

Walt   

So Here is the copy of the email I sent to Patrick




Hi Patrick,

It was nice talking to you and Sarah. It is too bad that we could not agree that I bought an Ocean Front Unit. I understand that the disclosure was written to protect SunTerra's butt. Which it does. But I also know how the week was sold to me. (as an Ocean Front Unit). And I know you do too. I am not the only one that said they bought Ocean Front. Why would that be?

As I asked you "Why would I buy at the Embassy if I could trade into it?" You had no anwer. Well, there is only one answer. Only because I knew I could not trade into an Ocean Front Unit was I willing to buy a week at The Embassy. I wanted to be able to stay in an Ocean Front Unit each time I used my Owner's week at The Embassy. That is why I bought at the Embassy. Who in there right mind would pay $13,900 for a non Ocean Front Unit and have a MF of $1045, when he/she could trade into the Embassy with another timeshare week that has a MF of $498 and a RCI exchange fee of $165? 

I will not be posting again on TUG or TimeshareForums about my problem with KBC and DRI.

However, I would like you to look at the pictures of the Ocean Front Unit, the Pool Side Unit and the North Side Unit and tell me that they are all the same. I know that you can not do this. But you must also know that I am telling the truth when I say, I was sold and bought an Ocean Front Unit.

I also think that an owner that gets his request in between 10 month and 12 months should have a unit number given to him on the confirmation sheet. You want the owners to trust you. But appearance is everything. If an owner makes a reservation one year in advance in a non holiday time and he/she gets less than expected, what are they to think? You are not being open about who gets the Ocean Front Units. The Week's owners feel that DRI does not want them at KBC. How do we really know that you are not giving the Ocean Front Units to The Club?

Your job is to push The Club. But DRI must earn our Trust first. And unless the week's owner trust you, you will not get them to buy into The Club. I never had a problem getting an Ocean Front Unit until the Embassy became part of DRI. Why?

Also please read my post on the DRI's web site. Diamond Resorts International®  http://www.diamondresortsforums.com/Topic6675-42-1.aspx

I really think I think DRI needs to rethink the changes at KBC.


Walt


----------



## dougp26364

Well, the salesmans lips were moving when he told you that you were buying an ocean front unit weren't they?

It's unfortunate that you were told one thing but have it in writing that you would recieve something different. Years back, when we bought at Polo Towers from DRI, we were told that the fixed weeks they were selling weren't really fixed, we could float them anytime we wanted. For the first few years this was true. Then, as the resort neared sell out and owners who bought fixed weeks and wanted those weeks couldn't get them due to others being allowed to float, they started going by what was in writing. 

It didn't matter what the salesman told us. It only matter what was in writing. So, that week became an exchange week and eventually was converted into DRI's THE CLub point based reservation system. 

Of course, it's not just DRI salesmen. I believe the truth has been "stretched" by almost every timeshare salesman we've spoken with. I know one Marriott salesman who sold us an ocean front unit told us we could deposit the studio unit and exchange back in the next year and get an ocean front unit. Opps, that wasn't exactly true. When you exchange back in, you get whatever you get. 

I'm sorry you didn't get the resolution you wanted.


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## JIMinNC

Walt,

I lost track of this thread last month when I got busy and just now checked back.

I understand your frustration with Sunterra and DRI; I have had my share of frustrations as well. But before you totally throw them under the bus because of what you were sold back in 2001, remember that back then all Deluxe Ocean View units were, I believe, *Ocean Front*. So what your sales person told you in 2001 was probably true *at that time*. 

What happened was that over time, as units were added into the timeshare program (transferred from the hotel rental pool), they began designating non-ocean front units as Deluxe Ocean View because there was never anything in their legal program description that required all DOV units to be ocean front.

I would be willing to bet that your salesperson in 2001 had no idea that non-oceanfront units might be designated as DOV in the future. It's certainly unfortunate and frustrating that they chose to do that, but they were well within their legal rights based on the program documents. It's certainly fair game to criticize their management for choosing to lower the intrinsic value of everyone's DOV units in order to have a larger supply of units to sell at the higher DOV price, but don't blame the salesperson in 2001 for something that didn't happen until much later.

Despite all this, I suspect though, if you reserve well in advance and request your favored units, you will have a pretty good chance to get one you like. As I said in my earlier post, we have always received our first or second choice of the 2BR units on every visit - and that's in a room category with much less available inventory than the 1BR oceanfront units you prefer.


Jim


----------



## Walt

*Still Waiting For A Reply*

DRI was going to get back to me with a reply about this after the KBC owner's meeting and election on Feb 24th.

Walt 



JIMMY said:


> *Despite all this, I suspect though, if you reserve well in advance and request your favored units, you will have a pretty good chance to get one you like. *As I said in my earlier post, we have always received our first or second choice of the 2BR units on every visit - and that's in a room category with much less available inventory than the 1BR oceanfront units you prefer.
> 
> 
> Jim


----------



## stefanie19

*Ka'anapali Beach Club*

I am not sure if this means much to you guys but Destination Paradise Hawaii has about 30 different weeks on the website right now.  They are all ocean veiws.  It does not say if it is deluxe or not?


----------



## Walt

*Update On This Subject.*

With the help of my lawyer: DRI, to their credit, has answered all of my questions to my satisfaction.

Walt


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## ccflyer

*At KBC Last Week*

My wife and I were at KBC last week.  We are deeded "deluxe oceanview" owners and were able to get an oceanfront unit without any hassle, probably due to the relatively low occupancy caused by the planned closure of the pool.  We attended the Diamond presentation in which they attempt to get deeded owners to convert to the points system.  I would not attend again.  It was an unpleasant, high pressure sales presentation.  Since we use our interval at the KBC resort itself each year and have no interest in trading, the points have no appeal to us.

The pool renovation is complete, and it looks pretty much as it did before.  However, comfortable pads have been added to the pool and beach chairs, a great improvement.  Also, the parking has been reconfigured, and it is much easier to find a space if you return to the resort late in the day.  Overall, the resort is in great condition, and the staff is well trained and eager to please.

I share the concerns that many of you have expressed above.  Diamond is using every means possible to convert deeded owners to points.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

ccflyer said:


> Does anyone know whether Diamond's "Hawaii Trust" owners are subject to the same maintenance fees as are "deeded" owners?  If Diamond is able to raise fees on deeded owners more quickly than on points owners, I suspect that they will use this as an additional means of coercion to attempt to convert intervals to points.



Maintenance fees are set per interval, without regard to ownership of the interval.  Whoever owns the interval is then obligated to pay the fee.  If the interval is privately owned, that private owner pays the fee.  If the interval is in the Trust, then the Trust pays the fee.

For each account in the Trust, fees are determined by combining all of the annual fees due for all trust ownerships, then calculating an annual fee per point by dividing that combined total annual fee by the total number of trust points outstanding.  Individual trust account fees are then the product of points owned in that account times the annual fee per point, plus an additional amount for trust operations.

KBC owners who convert to the Trust are likely to see an increase in annual fees, even without the additional trust amount, because the calculation I outlined above blends fees over all resorts in the trust.  Because fees are lower at KBC than at Po'ipu, the blended per point rate in the trust will be higher for KBC owners than what they would pay outside the trust.  Conversely, owners who come into the Trust from Po'ipu will likely see a decrease in annual fees, prior to addition of the trust annual fee.


----------



## Werner

As of March '09 the difference in MF between deeded Poipu weeks and Hawaiian trust weeks was about $100... less than last year's increase.  It is hard to believe that this difference is treated at such big sales feature by the sales staff at the owners update.


----------



## PalmTrees

*ocean front/DRI*

So succinct about the final resolution, I wonder if DRI bought some silence.
Just wondering........
I appreciate anyone who stands up for their rights, none the less.


----------



## Walt

*No Silence*



PalmTrees said:


> So succinct about the final resolution, I wonder if DRI bought some silence.
> Just wondering........
> I appreciate anyone who stands up for their rights, none the less.



I now have a letter that states that I own an Ocean Deluxe View one bedroom unit which is deeded. (A type IC Unit.) That the vacation ownership is exactly the same as what was sold to me in 2001. That I an entitled to book one of the Deluxe Ocean View units as listed in my Disclosure document that I got at the time of purchase, or an equivalent unit, every time I book at the KBC. *This would mean that I will not get a North Side Unit as an Ocean Deluxe Unit. Like the Unit #415 which was given to me upon check in. My Disclosure states unit #415 is an Ocean View unit.*

*I still could get a pool side unit in the Ohana Tower. I could live with this.* 

*Was I, and other, sold a Ocean Front Unit. The answer is Yes*. But the Disclosure states I bought an Ocean Deluxe Unit. And that is what I have to live with unless the KBC BOD owner representative are able to prove otherwise.

I need to get my reservations 12 months out and ask for Ocean Front. Since I like going the 2nd week of Jan. to the 2 week in Feb., the chances are good that I can get an Ocean Front Unit 12 months out.

And I have an email saying I was *not ban* from use.

Walt


----------



## dougp26364

Walt said:


> I now have a letter that states that I own an Ocean Deluxe View one bedroom unit which is deeded. (A type IC Unit.) That the vacation ownership is exactly the same as what was sold to me in 2001. That I an entitled to book one of the Deluxe Ocean View units as listed in my Disclosure document that I got at the time of purchase, or an equivalent unit, every time I book at the KBC. *This would mean that I will not get a North Side Unit as an Ocean Deluxe Unit. Like the Unit #415 which was given to me upon check in. My Disclosure states unit #415 is an Ocean View unit.*
> 
> *I still could get a pool side unit in the Ohana Tower. I could live with this.*
> 
> *Was I, and other, sold a Ocean Front Unit. The answer is Yes*. But the Disclosure states I bought an Ocean Deluxe Unit. And that is what I have to live with unless the KBC BOD owner representative are able to prove otherwise.
> 
> I need to get my reservations 12 months out and ask for Ocean Front. Since I like going the 2nd week of Jan. to the 2 week in Feb., the chances are good that I can get an Ocean Front Unit 12 months out.
> 
> And I have an email saying I was *not ban* from use.
> 
> Walt




I'm glad this worked out for you in a way that was appropriate for both you and DRI. It is nice to know the DRI has acknowledge exactly what you own and has agreed to provide that without additional action being necessary.

I still believe that DRI took a huge bite for an apple that had a lot of bad spots in it. I believe Sunterra was less than honest in many of their dealings and DRI has been stuck with the huge task of trying to lay straight a bag of snakes. While I have not always agreed with what I sometimes interpret as a knee jerk reaction by DRI, at least they've been solveing problems as time goes on more so than they've caused problems. Yes, it's been rough in a few spots but, I believe things are starting to get better.


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## post-it

dougp26364 said:


> I'm glad this worked out for you in a way that was appropriate for both you and DRI. It is nice to know the DRI has acknowledge exactly what you own and has agreed to provide that without additional action being necessary.
> 
> I still believe that DRI took a huge bite for an apple that had a lot of bad spots in it. I believe Sunterra was less than honest in many of their dealings and DRI has been stuck with the huge task of trying to lay straight a bag of snakes. While I have not always agreed with what I sometimes interpret as a knee jerk reaction by DRI, at least they've been solveing problems as time goes on more so than they've caused problems. Yes, it's been rough in a few spots but, I believe things are starting to get better.



You've brought up an interesting perspective regarding Sunterra's and DRI's transition.  Most postings I 've read have DRI as the villian........I'd like to think your perspective could be right.


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