# [ 2012 ] Historic Powhatan Resort to remove hot tubs



## mtforeman

I just noticed in my DRI bill today that they are planning to remove all hot tubs from the first floor units that have hot tubs.  I am very upset about this, as Powhatan already has low ratings compared to some of the other Williamsburg properties, and the hot tub was one of the few special perks that no place else had.

I just think it is inappropriate.  The justification is that it will save money.  For over $1200 a year, they shouldn't be looking to cut out perks...they should be adding!

Disappointed.....


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## NKN

*Historic Powhatan Resort to remove hot tubs*

I've heard Marriott is doing the same thing.  Though they are replacing them with large fancy showers.  

Scuttlebut seems to be they use too much water, have to be cleaned after each guest and too many complaints about how they worked.

I know the last time I used one, it looked clean, but when I was done the water was filled with little black scum.  So they had to come and use heavy duty cleaners to clean the jets.

I always tried to use them at least once during the week.

We'll probably see it more frequently in the industry.


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## RuralEngineer

*Jacuzzi?*

I have enjoyed some of the refurbished units with the new tubs.  They were great.  That makes no sense.


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## Poshlee

*What are they thinking???*

Powhatan has long been a favorite despite its "issues".  One of the nicest features is the hot tubs.  Nothing like slipping into the tub after a long day at the restored area or the outlets.  It was one of the advantages Powhatan had over the others- and why we preferred it to Greenspring.  Sad day indeed.


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## daventrina

Doing the same at Tahoe.
A lot of trouble and money.


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## fluke

Like what has already been said - this is happening in multiple TS organizations.  It appears that overall the usage is low and there are cleaning and maintenence issues.  Issues are actually magnified by the low usage.


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## dougp26364

We use to have a hot tub and I'm aware of the care necessary to keep it clean. There's no way I'd be interested in using a hot tub that's attached to a unit and I didn't know how it was cleaned or if it was cleaned properly by the cleaning crew. These things can be a breading ground for bacteria if not maintained properly. That also makes them fodder for liablity lawsuits and I'm sure the insurance rates reflect that issue.


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## sfwilshire

I don't even use the bathtubs in timeshares or hotels until I clean them myself. When we visited Powhatan, we never removed the cover on the hot tub. I'd rather have the space used for another purpose as a guest. JMHO.

Sheila


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## hvsteve1

I understand removing the hot tubs will result in our mf being lowered by at least two to three hundred dollars per year....NOT!


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## Passepartout

Another resort where we are members removed their hot tubs. People would actually use them to bathe! With bar soap and shampoo/conditioner and the like! They are a maintenance and energy headache, and are water and chemical hogs, even if used properly. Used improperly, with my above example and people taking babies with- or without diapers, I won't use a 'public' hot tub without at least checking the chemical levels myself and being assured that it is professionally maintained- not just wiped down by housekeeping.

Yeah, removing them may not reduce MF- because it will cost some-not so few- dollars to remove and dispose of them, but in the long run, maybe this move will delay a MF increase.

Jim


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## NKN

Powhatan has just called a Special Meeting of Owners on Jan. 12th just to decide what to do about the tubs.  Annual upkeep, etc. costs about 1.3 million.  Removal and renovation will be about 5.2 million.   We have to send back a proxy indicating Remove or Keep.


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## vacationhopeful

Wyndham Kingsgate in Williamsburg removed their "jetted" tubs several years ago. And for all the same reasons. Did not do anything in the MBR other than paint and carpetted the area.

Most guests feelings (including mine) was, times change, it was seldom used, and  costs to repair & clean were too much.


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## timeos2

We as a Board decided to remove the jetted tubs when we did a full unit renovation at our Cape Cod resort. Technically it should have been a full owner vote as it involved removing a feature specifically noted in the original sales documents but there hasn't been a single complaint. The new bath is much more modern looking without those tubs and we are saving on power & water use. It was time for a change from the 80's look.


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## dougp26364

Keep in mind that I don't believe they're removing jetted bathtubs. They're removing full size hot tubs/spa's much like you'd find in the back yards of private households or on the pool deck at many resorts. There's a big difference between an actual hot tub and a jetted/jacuzzi style bathtub. 

Of course I'm assuming I'm reading and understanding the OP's original post.


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## hvsteve1

Yep, those are full sized spas, not just a jetted tub.  The big problem is they are in a dedicated "Spa Room" at the back of the unit.  It won't involve a bathroom remodel as with a tub, there will be  an empty room with either wood slat or tile walls (depending on age), high ceiling and large windows.  If they simply remove the tubs and leave the room, it will be obvious something is missing and may generate negative reviews as people will think there is something wrong.  Taking down those rooms, which are additions on the back of the unit, will be quite expensive.  Also, some of those tubs are only a year or two old as the spa rooms have been part of the continuing remodels and new construction.  I wonder if all the tubs will come out at once or if they will simply start with the older, fussier and more difficult to mantain ones first and work their way toward the newer ones.


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## NKN

The Special Meeting notice indicates an email address to answer any questions with respect to the meeting on the hot tubs.   

Powhatan.SpecialMeeting@DiamondResorts.com.


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## hararou

The notice of Special Meeting of the Powhatan Resort Owners Association concerning the removal of the hot tubs at Powhatan allows for a proxy vote.  Does anyone know if anyone on the Board of Directors for the Association is a real representative of the owners, rather than Diamond Resorts?    I would like more information on the issue and would prefer to have the information come from someone who is not a Diamond Resorts rep.  Thanks.


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## hvsteve1

I haven't seen a PP owners' newsletter in some time, but my recollection is there are two owners' reps, the management rep and two or three Diamond reps as Diamond still has, to my knowledge, developer control as there are more units on paper than have been built along with existing units technically owned by DRI or The Trust.  In any case, this is one of those timeshares where the owners will probably never have control and asking for votes is a formality as DRI has enough voting power to do whatever they want.  If anyone has better information than this I welcome it.


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## hararou

Thanks, hvsteve1.   That is pretty much what I suspected.  It doesn't really bother me too much personally if they remove the hot tubs.  I rarely use it but my wife does and enjoys it.  And I agree with your post yesterday that removing them may generate negative reviews as people will think there is something wrong.  I sent an email earlier today to the email address they set up for the special meeting but don't expect to hear anything for several days.

In the email I asked them what will happen to the room where the hot tub is located and how much I can expect my maintenance cost to decline if they remove the hot tubs (the latter question just for rhetorical sake since a maintenance fee decline is about as likely as a confirmed sighting of Bigfoot).  I don't know when you purchased your unit, but at one time Powhatan also had steam in one of the bathroom showers.  The knob for the steam is still there and probably causes confusion for many first-time visitors.  If the hot tubs are removed and there is an empty space, visitors will wonder what the purpose of the room is or was.   I asked them also if, rather than having an empty room, they considered modifying the room and replacing the hot tubs with jacuzzis?   We own at both Powhatan and Greensprings.  Greensprings does not have hot tubs but does have jacuzzis and it makes the units at Greensprings more attractive.  I don't know what the trade off would be with respect to initial cost and annual maintenance if you replace hot tubs with jacuzzis but removal of the hot tubs at Powhatan will, as you noted, make them less attractive if nothing is done to offset the loss.  If and when I get a response from DRI, I'll post it.


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## hvsteve1

In answer to your question, we have owned for about 25 years.  We were among the first to purchase the two over two lockouts as we were there in one of the older units in the first section and they were still selling those while preparing to start showing the new units.  The salesman showed us the new ones and said if we were interested we should let him know.  After a few days we called and said we wanted one.  I forget how much we paid, but it seems like chump change based on what they get now (on our visit earlier this year, some brave young lady tried to get us to buy $125,000 in points ).  The mf was also rediculously low and I always knew we were underpaying and was not shocked when we eventually had a special assessment.

I remember the upstairs steam shower and they were always kind of iffy.  So far as replacing the hot tubs with a jetted tub, that shouldn't be difficult as the existing tubs in the master bath are large soaking tubs which are, basically, jetted tubs without the jets.  I will say we stayed earlier this year at the Lawrance Welk Resort in Escondido, CA which is considered a really good resort and they did not have a jetted tub. What they did have was a very large and luxurious shower, but I don't believe there is room in PP units for that.  I do worry about what happens to that spa room.  Let us know what you hear.


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## hararou

Finally heard from DRI.  
Here are my questions, followed by the responses.  Pretty much what I expected.

My questions:

1. How much of a reduction in annual maintenance fees can we expect if the hot tubs are removed?

2. You refer to 444 in-unit hot tubs/spas and also state that you "have determined that the removal of 431 of the hot tubs is in the best interest of the Association."  Why would you remove only 431 of the hot tubs and not all 444?  That doesn't make any sense to me.  Is that a typo?

3. What will happen to the room where the hot tub is located?  At one time, Powhatan also had steam in one of the bathroom showers.  The knob for the steam is still there and probably causes confusion for many visitors.  If the hot tubs are removed and there is an empty space, visitors will wonder what the purpose of the room is or was.   Rather than having an empty room, have you considered reducing the size of the room and replacing the hot tubs with jacuzzis?   We own at both Powhatan and Greensprings.  Greensprings does not have hot tubs but does have jacuzzis and it makes the units at Greensprings more attractive.   Removal of the hot tubs at Powhatan will unquestionably make them less attractive if nothing is done to offset the loss.

DRI Response:

There would be no savings seen in your maintenance fee - rather you would not see large increases in future years for the repair and replacement of the existing failing hot tubs.  Additionally, funds which would be used for these repairs could be used to support other projects such as unit renovations, furniture replacements, and infrastructure improvements.

Building 91 and 92 were just recently constructed; therefore, the hot tubs in these units will not be replaced at this time.

This project will be done in stages, stage 1 is removal of the hot tubs and minor repairs to the Spa Rooms, Stage 2 will include a permanent fix for the Spa Rooms.  The total cost to remove all of the hot tubs is approximately $900,000 and is a one-time cost.  Consideration will be given as to the future use of the room and the room may be turned into additional patio area.


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## singlemalt_18

hararou said:


> DRI Response:
> 
> There would be no savings seen in your maintenance fee - rather you would not see large increases in future years for the repair and replacement of the existing failing hot tubs.  Additionally, funds which would be used for these repairs could be used to support other projects such as unit renovations, furniture replacements, and infrastructure improvements.
> 
> Building 91 and 92 were just recently constructed; therefore, the hot tubs in these units will not be replaced at this time.
> 
> This project will be done in stages, stage 1 is removal of the hot tubs and minor repairs to the Spa Rooms, Stage 2 will include a permanent fix for the Spa Rooms.  The total cost to remove all of the hot tubs is approximately $900,000 and is a one-time cost.  Consideration will be given as to the future use of the room and the room may be turned into additional patio area.



It all sounds reasonable and responsible to me; they are looking to keep future costs down.

While I can appreciate that there may be some disappointment over removal of the hot tubs, I fully understand it after our most recent stay at Bent Creek back in the end of October.  We had one of our best Diamond experiences ever on this stay; the staff was perhaps the most sincerely warm, generous, and gracious group of people we have met anywhere, and the property was also first rate.

My wife and I are not really hot tub people, but we had one in our top floor unit that overlooked the mountains.  The cool evening air and fall colors made us decide to give it a try and we loved it.  It was kept both covered and up to temperature, and most importantly appeared to be clean and fresh.

We made every effort to be hygienic users of our private and personal hot tub, but by the time we were uncovering to use for only the third time that week however, I noticed the smell seemed just a bit off.  I can only imagine what it can turn into when used by folks not as particular as us.  By the time we uncovered for use again, it was no longer a clean and appealing proposition, but our week was coming to an end.

I have no doubt that the hot tubs are an enormous expense to operate and maintain, and they surely add a no-room-for-error element to otherwise routine operations.  Dollar for dollar, it is likely the right thing to do.


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## dougp26364

hararou said:


> DRI Response:
> 
> There would be no savings seen in your maintenance fee - rather you would not see large increases in future years for the repair and replacement of the existing failing hot tubs.  Additionally, funds which would be used for these repairs could be used to support other projects such as unit renovations, furniture replacements, and infrastructure improvements.



This tells me that the HOA never set enough money aside in cash reserves to replace the hot tubs in the future. Poor planning requires drastic measures. Most often that's a large SA and large increase in MF's to prevent the same situation from repeating itself 10 to 20 years down the road. Sunterra was famous for never collecting adaquate cash reserve and allowing resort to fall into disrepair. DRI won't let that happen. Thus, a large SA plus boosting MF's to cover future needs would be on the talbe to keep the hot tubs.



> Building 91 and 92 were just recently constructed; therefore, the hot tubs in these units will not be replaced at this time.



Since they don't need to be replaced, DRI isn't going to go through the expense of replacing the newer hot tubs. 



> This project will be done in stages, stage 1 is removal of the hot tubs and minor repairs to the Spa Rooms, Stage 2 will include a permanent fix for the Spa Rooms.  The total cost to remove all of the hot tubs is approximately $900,000 and is a one-time cost.  Consideration will be given as to the future use of the room and the room may be turned into additional patio area.



I wonder if DRI will produce an artist conceptual drawing to give owners an idea of what the transformation will look like. By doing it in stages, DRI can avoid either a large increase to cover the cost of removal/renovation and keep MF increases at a minimum and/or not require an SA to cover the cost of the renovation. 

IMHO, it's a shame the Sunterra tried to hard to keep MF some of the lowest in the industry. In the end, that sort of planning will only hurt the owners. Of course there's a limit to MF's and how "high" of quality owners are willing to pay to own/maintain. The trick is finding that balance between quality and owner satisfaction.


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## hvsteve1

Keep in mind the newest units also command a point premium.  Maybe the hot tubs will be one more extra feature making them the "deluxe" units.

Has anybody heard the result of the meeting...as though we couldn't guess?


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## RuralEngineer

*vote*

I understand that the "owners" voted to remove the tubs.


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## dougp26364

RuralEngineer said:


> I understand that the "owners" voted to remove the tubs.



I wonder how many of the owners are trust members who's vote is cast by the trust manager. In a trust system, it occurs to me that votes become a mere formality for the developer to be able to make the changes they feel need to be made.


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## pedro47

I feel that this is the best move for both parties.  The resort is now more than 25 years old and their could be some water pipes issues and other safety issues;  if the resort continue to maintain these four hundred plus hot tubs.

These is only my opinion.  Hot tubs are great if they are maintain properly.


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## hvsteve1

DRI has allocated more money to PP than any other resort for 2013 upgrades.  I guess a lot of this money will go to remove the hot tubs which means the units will be missing something rather than gaining.  I'm not so much against the removal assuming the expense of keeping them was getting out of hand. However I fear what I'm going to see when I check in 3 months from now and have the empty spa room, with the door probably permanently locked until they decide what to do with the space.


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## hvsteve1

So PP has sent out the official results of the hot tub vote.  If I interpret it correctly, the majority of owners voted to get rid of them.  DRI then added their votes to do so.  They seem to be saying they went along with the majority, however, who knows if they would have overturned the majority of owners if the vote had gone the other way.

The powerpoint presentation they link to makes a persuasive argment for removing the hot tubs.  Too bad they didn't put it out before the vote.

Their budget also seems to indicate they are doing some remodeling of the spa rooms after the tubs are gone.

They are keeping a few of the newer tubs.  I wonder if they're going to charge more points for those units.  I know they would include the deluxe units which were recently built.  Last year we stayed an a newly remodled unit, which also had a new tub.


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## mtforeman

From what I have read on Trip Advisor, at this point the hot tub rooms are all locked off, with hot tubs still in the room.  People who visit are not provided any information abou why they have a room that is locked off.

I have to say that I find this change to be terrible, since we are very big hot tub users (have one at home) and that was one of the deciding factors on which timeshare we purchased.  Furthermore, I purchased the timeshare after it was already being run by DRI, so I've always paid excessive maintenance fees, which I didnt mind doing since I knew we were being provided with a perk that was expensive.  I find this to be disappointing, and we still have received no information whatsoever on how the rooms will be used or what the timeline is.  It is too bad they couldn't phase things in differently, perhaps by removing the tubs and renovating the rooms at the same time, using a phased in effect across the resort.  Right now, it sounds awful and embarrassing for people who visit, and I would be hesitant to try and rent my unit.

I'll be paying close attention to how they manage this change.  We paid for and own our week, and while I can accept that owners voted to remove the hot tubs, (I didn't vote for it).  I don't feel that it is appropriate for us to be denied access to an entire room of square footage in a unit we own.

I'm probably just too much attached.  I bought a fixed unit and a fixed week, and I have enjoyed gong there and knowing at I had ownership of that specific unit for that specific period of time.  Hopefully in the long run they figure out a use for the rooms.  I don't think the topic should ever have gone to vote without including the plan and timeline for how the rooms will be used going forward. Those aspects of the decision should have been part of the vote, IMHO.

I'll be able to give a better review of how the changes are working, as we will be heading there for the fourth of July week with out family.  Still looking forward to it!  I've always loved our unit.

On a related note, I tried to post an email on this topic on the DRI members message board (which, surprise surprise, moderates and approves all posts) and I was informed that the post wasn't approved.  Jeesh!


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## hvsteve1

We were there in April and the hot tub rooms were locked. I would assume they cannot remove 400 hot tubs in a month or so and restore the rooms to some sort of useful condition. As an owner for some 25 years, I loved the hot tubs but realize they are getting old and expensive to maintain. I have also always felt the way one climbed in an out was quite dangerous and has probably led to injuries and possible lawsuits over the years.  The tubs in the new "deluxe" units are quite different, however I don't want to foot the bill for updating all the tubs. Unfortunately, we stayed in a newly renovated unit last year and the hot tub and spa room were completely new. So, we are going to be dumping some tubs that are only a year or two old.  But, as some earlier posters had said, hot tubs and jetted tubs are falling out of favor in timeshares and DRI isn't the only one removing them. As for visitors not knowing why the room is locked off, all they have to do is ask.  It's not being kept a secret.

One result of this change is the upstairs unit is now superior to the downstairs where the only big plus was the tub.  The upstairs has a much better set up so far as the bathrooms. When we stayed in April, we used both units and saw that the upstairs also had a wet bar in the living room.  Another plus is the heat pumps aren't right outside your bedroom window. So, we will now be requesting the upstairs unit.


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## RuralEngineer

*Deluxe 2 BR*

I will be staying at a deluxe 2BR next week.  Not sure what the difference between deluxe and regular is but will find out.  I got at 75%.


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## csalter2

*Would like to know!*



RuralEngineer said:


> I will be staying at a deluxe 2BR next week.  Not sure what the difference between deluxe and regular is but will find out.  I got at 75%.



Please let us know the difference when you find out. 

Thanks!


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## gjw007

From diamond's website
Std 2-bedroom grd floor
Max occup - 6
Size - 1280 sq ft
No longer has hot tubs

2-bedroom deluxe
Max occup -6
Whirlpool jet tub
Size - 1280 sq ft
Grd floor may still have hot tub
Walk in shower

I didn't see anything else significant in the description.  The floor plan was identical but although I use the grd floor units to compare, the floor plans shown were listed as the 2nd floor so they probably are different.

As a side note, it looks like they have started to update the website


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## hvsteve1

My recollection is there is a floor plan difference in that the main bath is a double entry with a door from the second bedroom as well as the living room on the first floor.  The older standard units have only a door from the living room so that the person staying in the second bedroom has to come out into the living room area to access the bath.  I believe the double entry bath is in the upstairs in the older units.  The deluxe units also have the improvements being worked on in the older units, such as removing the cabinets and bulkhead between the kitchen and living/dining area.


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## Rascalsmom

mtforeman said:


> From what I have read on Trip Advisor, at this point the hot tub rooms are all locked off, with hot tubs still in the room.  People who visit are not provided any information abou why they have a room that is locked off.



Yes.  I was there last week, and this was the case.   After reading this thread, I think I must have been in an unrenovated unit.  I wrote a review for Tug.

About the hot tub - I saw it but trying to use it was out of the question.  I don't use the bathtub in any hotel without disinfecting it with bleach myself.  Showers --- ok.  Hot tubs --- Ewwww.  For me, the in-unit hot tub is a negative, not a positive.


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## mtforeman

*Did visit over the summer*

We did visit our unit over the summer, and the hot tub room was locked off with no explanation (hot tub still inside).  The people at the reception desk said they were getting constant complaints, either from owners who didn't follow the situation or from people who rented (many rental sites still said that a hot tub was included).

However, my biggest concern was some of the poor maintenance overall that had occurred in just two years.  I took probably 20 pictures, but there was major damage in the unit, tile chunks all broken in the kitchen, counter top broken, etc.  They had switched all the furniture on the upstairs from the two bedrooms, and the black furniture had huge gouges out of it and chunks of wood torn off.  It was amazing that something could have gone so downhill in two years!

The good news was that it looked like wood had been replaced on the deck.

I sent all of my photos in to the resort management, but all they said was "thank you" and they would forward them to the appropriate parties.  I asked that I be updated if repairs were made, but I never heard back and it has been four months.

While it may not sound like it, since I'm so irritated, we really do love our timeshare there.  The location is gorgeous, with a back porch facing the woods where we can watch deer.  It is really quite nice.  Our beds are great and our furniture used to be pretty good.  I'm just a concerned owner, that's all.  I don't like the thought that the resort is going back downhill after so much was done to make it nicer.

So, there's the update.


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## timeos2

Sadly that is exactly what we have found at Powhatan over the years. Despite promises and plenty of money being thrown at it there is never any real, resort wide improvement. My opinion is that it is simply too large and has too many different sections and styles to manage and especially to upgrade with any consistency.  Since there are so many other choices in Williamsburg that are nicer, including the DRI sister resort of Greensprings, we just don't take Powhatan unless it is the absolute only choice and we have to be there on specific dates.  My favorite is the indoor pool. Over a five year period we heard about 7 different stories about it but the bottom line was it was either a mess or closed and "under renovation" every time we visited. 

We also had two times when we actually got an upgraded unit and it was very nice. But since we cannot depend on that we just pass most of the time.


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## gjw007

I have been hoping for improvement at Powhttan but even years after Diamond ownership, it still hasn't really improved.  For those who think Diamond approaches Hilton, Mariott, or DVC standards, stay at Powhattan and it will change your mind.

I don't think the problem is the size of the resort, the problem is the size of the maintenance staff and/or training and/or leadership.  The work done at he resort when watching Undercover Boss didn't give any comfort that things will improve.  When I was there last they put in the new door locks where you don't have to insert the card but swipe it past the reader.  The unit worked but it really was a butchered job.  There really is no excuse for not keeping the units up especially when it seems the money has been there.  I stayed at Powhattan 4 times this summer and Greensprings twice.  I have no problem recommending Greensprings but advise Powhattan is not my first choice when there are others to stay at unless price is a major factor.

As far as the hot tubs, they didn't really look like they attempted to keep those up to date with pieces of wood missing and spiderwebs at various places.  Good thought, bad execution as they required attention to keep up and it doesn't appear it was given.


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## mtforeman

*Anybody been here lately?*

We're heading back this summer, since we traded it in last summer.

Does anyone know what they did with their "hot tub rooms"?  Are the rooms open now?  Hot tubs removed?  New furniture?

When we were there in summer, 2013, the doors were locked with hot tubs drained but still in there.

Just curious what to expect...

Thanks!


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## pedro47

The only units with hot tubs are the two delux buildings. Building 90 and 91. The hot tubs are all located in the ground floor unit.


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