# Average SPG Amex Annual Spend



## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 20, 2015)

What would be your average SPG Amex Annual Spend?

The reason being that there are threads where the conversion of SOptions to SPGPoints are discussed.

Understanding:

1. Possible to purchase 20,000 SPG Points at 3.5 cents each, or at a discount.
2. Maximum 1 per person.  So 2 x 20,000 = 40,000 per year.
3. Assume a couple, with MINOR children.  So I am assuming you can't have an SPG account for a MINOR.


It would seem that in order to book hotels with SPG Points, require A LOT of SPG Points that may be impossible to earn just on a typical/average household spend.  Especially if you have 2 vacations per year.

For example:
WKV - Mar 12 to Mar 19 2016 - requires 95,998 SPG Points for a 1BR Villa.


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## DeniseM (Jul 20, 2015)

We put every cent we spend on our Starwood AMEX card, but we don't use the points for accommodations - we use then for airfare.  For every dollar you spend, you can get 1.25 airline miles.

There are other ways to reserve accommodations that are less expensive such as renting from owners, renting from exchange companies, exchanging with exchange companies, and private exchanges.

When we do hotels - I use Priceline.


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## canesfan (Jul 20, 2015)

Plus I'd never use SPG points for a timeshare, I'd use options because those are a better conversion.  Besides I have lots of options. I use SPG points for hotels and usually try to do cash & points when it's available.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 20, 2015)

canesfan said:


> Plus I'd never use SPG points for a timeshare, I'd use options because those are a better conversion.  Besides I have lots of options. I use SPG points for hotels and usually try to do cash & points when it's available.



Yes. Agree.  If you have a TS, you wouldn't use SPG Points.

The point of the post is to determine, whether the average spend of a family is enough to even get a yearly vacation out of it - without spending actual money on a TS yet.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 20, 2015)

Since this is a Starwood forum, we are targeting Cat 4/5 or above properties.


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## YYJMSP (Jul 20, 2015)

Probably not exactly the info you're looking for, but annually we use around:

- 350K StarOptions (or equivalent in Home Resort bookings)
- 400K StarPoints (some from conversion, rest earned directly with hotel stays)
- 250K frequent flyer points (assume that correlates to credit card purchases)

That gives us about eight weeks of holidays every year in some combination of SVO properties (1BR or larger) and SPG Category 4+ hotels (usually paying the premium for suites)


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## canesfan (Jul 20, 2015)

As DeniseM mentioned, renting might be a better option if you can't accumulate more than a week worth of vacation of SPG points.


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## DeniseM (Jul 20, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> The point of the post is to determine, whether the average spend of a family is enough to even get a yearly vacation out of it - without spending actual money on a TS yet.



This would simply depend on the owner's income.   I know someone with a medical practice who uses her AMEX for her business and personal expenses, and earns an enormous number of points.

Probably not the average family - but many Starwood owners are above average in income.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 20, 2015)

YYJMSP said:


> Probably not exactly the info you're looking for, but annually we use around:
> 
> - 350K StarOptions (or equivalent in Home Resort bookings)
> - 400K StarPoints (some from conversion, rest earned directly with hotel stays)
> ...



That's cool.  But isn't that considered a lot of SPG Points compared to a more typical household?

Even if you are a Platinum SPG - @ 3 Points per US$, that still represents about US$100K for SPG Hotels.

On an Amex SPG - @ 1 to 1 - that is a $400K spend.

Of course, if you say 50/50, then that is still a 200K spend on Amex + 67K spend on SPG Hotels.

I am assuming no conversion of SOptions to SPG Points.

Is the math correct?


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## YYJMSP (Jul 20, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> That's cool.  But isn't that considered a lot of SPG Points compared to a more typical household?
> 
> Even if you are a Platinum SPG - @ 3 Points per US$, that still represents about US$100K for SPG Hotels.
> 
> ...



I stay about 125 nights a year in SPG hotels.  Plat75 and higher get 4pts per USD.  Add in the 500pts as the checkin bonus, and another 500pts/nt to skip housekeeping, and the constantly running promotions that come out say at least another 500pts/nt...

I counted the actual spend in the frequent flyer points category.  Business expenses can push that number up much higher than if it was just personal costs...

If you're looking at two x one week long holidays, divide my numbers by four and I think you'd be comfortable with respect to points usage.  Remember to add actual money for food and entertainment (can't quite use points effectively on those yet).

Usually, there is a correlation between the amount of dollars spent and the points earned.  Most will get you back approaching 2% of your cost as value in points (whatever kind they are) if you're careful about how you spend the points.


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## traveldaddy (Jul 20, 2015)

Spg points are great for adding a day at beginning or end of a week to minimize airfare. Also great for stopovers when doing a driving vacation. 

I have not used for a full week or longer stay, mostly because I use my TS for that. It could get very expensive if you wanted a week at a suite and high category location. Certainly beyond my spg means. 

Craig


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 20, 2015)

On a semi-related note:

Westin Whistler Dec 26 to Jan 2 - 7 nights.
Cost:  71,995 SPG Points.

Seems like a pretty good deal.

If you take that as a 1BR/Studio (which it is), then it seems like a pretty good deal.

If you convert an existing TS (eg. WDW @ 148100 SOptions = 72000 SPG), it doesnt seem that bad - ESPECIALLY if you bought your TS as a resale.


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## YYJMSP (Jul 20, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> On a semi-related note:
> 
> Westin Whistler Dec 26 to Jan 2 - 7 nights.
> Cost:  71,995 SPG Points.
> ...



Westin Whistler standard rooms are equiv to a studio.  A 1BR unit there is double the points.

Best values is always to redeem for SPG rooms in high season when they would have cost more.  Your Westin Whistler example is $1000/nt at Christmas vs $100/nt in the summer for the same 12K pts/nt.

Not sure how you're getting these SPG redemption rates ending in 995, etc.  It should be a round number, such as 6x12K = 72K for 7 nights (with the fifth night being free)


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 20, 2015)

If you go to the spg website, that is how much it is per night.

Not all nights are 12K.  Sometimes weekends are 16K
And with the 5th night free, I would assume that if you add all the spg points then divide by 7, that is why that number is not an exact round number.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 20, 2015)

You are right.  It is 72,000 total.

I guess 72,000 divide by 7 is 10285.++ (which was what was shown)


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## Ty1on (Jul 20, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> You are right.  It is 72,000 total.
> 
> I guess 72,000 divide by 7 is 10285.++ (which was what was shown)



I get dizzy whenever I look at Starwood threads.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 20, 2015)

Ty1on said:


> I get dizzy whenever I look at Starwood threads.



Why?  It is not that bad......


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## Ken555 (Jul 21, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> Not all nights are 12K.  Sometimes weekends are 16K




Cat 5 is 12k in low season, 16k in high. You shouldn't see it change for weekends, and only twice per year.


Sent from my iPad


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## Ty1on (Jul 21, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> Why?  It is not that bad......



Just.....very complicated...


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## Ken555 (Jul 21, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> The point of the post is to determine, whether the average spend of a family is enough to even get a yearly vacation out of it - without spending actual money on a TS yet.




The only relevant question to consider is whether or not your spend is sufficient for the nights you want to redeem, or not. Others results should have absolutely no bearing on your personal decision whether to plan on reserving hotel nights based on your credit card spend.


Sent from my iPad


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## Ty1on (Jul 21, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> The only relevant question to consider is whether or not your spend is sufficient for the nights you want to redeem, or not. Others results should have absolutely no bearing on your personal decision whether to plan on reserving hotel nights based on your credit card spend.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad



It seems like he's just trying to guage the value of the card to the average Joe as an academic question.


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## DeniseM (Jul 21, 2015)

Ty1on said:


> It seems like he's just trying to guage the value of the card to the average Joe as an academic question.



If you really wanted to figure this out, you could add up everything you charged to a credit card, wrote a check for, or paid significant amounts of cash for in 2014 - that would be your total points, if you charged them all on an AMEX, instead

You can pay just about everything with an AMEX, except mortgage payments, except for a few  merchants who don't accept AMEX because of the higher merchant fee - we use a different airline card in those cases.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 21, 2015)

In Canada, very few merchants take Amex though.....


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## Ty1on (Jul 21, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> If you really wanted to figure this out, you could add up everything you charged to a credit card, wrote a check for, or paid significant amounts of cash for in 2014 - that would be your total points, if you charged them all on an AMEX, instead
> 
> You can pay just about everything with an AMEX, except mortgage payments, except for a few  merchants who don't accept AMEX because of the higher merchant fee - we use a different airline card in those cases.



We use AmEx Gold, and have put a good rhythm of charges on it, but have done little with the points earned (nthing in a few years, actually).  When my wife returns, I think we are going to sit down and figure out what kind of airline breaks we can pull out of those points, and maybe use it more aggressively, because airline costs are pretty much our largest obstacle to vacationing outside driving distance.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 21, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> If you really wanted to figure this out, you could add up everything you charged to a credit card, wrote a check for, or paid significant amounts of cash for in 2014 - that would be your total points, if you charged them all on an AMEX, instead
> 
> You can pay just about everything with an AMEX, except mortgage payments, except for a few  merchants who don't accept AMEX because of the higher merchant fee - we use a different airline card in those cases.



Unlike in the US (maybe), many merchants do not take Amex.  For example, only maybe 1 or 2 grocery chains take Amex.
A lot of restaurants also do not take Amex.
The merchant penetration is quite low....

In our case, whatever we can charge with Amex, is ALL that we can charge with Amex.  

Given that, it would be pretty difficult to gather SPG points than just by Amex alone.


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## DeniseM (Jul 21, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> Unlike in the US (maybe), many merchants do not take Amex.  For example, only maybe 1 or 2 grocery chains take Amex.
> A lot of restaurants also do not take Amex.
> The merchant penetration is quite low....
> 
> ...



In your case, it might make more sense to use an airline credit card, then.  Many of them offer substantial sign-up bonuses, and you can churn them for new bonuses every few years.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 21, 2015)

One of the possible points of this thread is that, there is always the SOptions vs conversion to SPoints.

I would reckon, even on the higher spend (typical/normal) side - an annual Amex spend that would be maybe 120K SPG points.

That already represent 10,000 in monthly spend on "regular things".  That is quite a high spending amount already, for a family.

So in theory, getting 200K SPoints is quite difficult and "expensive".

That is, you can probably get the first 100K "cheaply" just from regular spends.  Which probably amounts to about 2 cents in terms of cost.

Your marginal cost, at the higher point levels, should be much higher.
So either your marginal cost for more SPGpoints is 3.5 cents (which you purchase) or the 2.625 cents which you purchase at a discount.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 21, 2015)

So if you were to make a typical SPG Point Cost Matrix, maybe it will look something like this:

0 - 100,000 - Cost = 2 cents - Via SPG Amex - Regular/everyday spending

100,001 to 140,000 = 2.625 cent (discounted from 3.5 cents) - Via Direct Purchase

(Can be up to 180,000, if you have enough 4 adults in your family) + 20,000 per adult in the same address.

The question:
After you reach the threshhold where you can reasonably buy the SPG Points (eg. at 140,000 annually, for 2 adult households)..

Then what is the cost of the SPG Points?  It is much more than 2.625 cents or 3.5 cents.

Because there is no reasonable way, that you can acquire more SPG Points.

UNLESS..... you convert STAROPTIONS.


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## DeniseM (Jul 21, 2015)

> 0 - 100,000 - Cost = 2 cents - Via SPG Amex - Regular/everyday spending



Why do these cost 2¢ per point?


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 21, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Why do these cost 2¢ per point?



Generally, max credit card rewards cost 2%, or 2 cents.

That is, I can switch to another CC that would give 2% on everything you spend. That is actual dollars you can spend on travel.

However, I choose the Amex SPG, because I value the points at much more than 2 cents.


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## Ty1on (Jul 21, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> So if you were to make a typical SPG Point Cost Matrix, maybe it will look something like this:
> 
> 0 - 100,000 - Cost = 2 cents - Via SPG Amex - Regular/everyday spending
> 
> ...



There, I'm dizzy again.


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## SMHarman (Jul 21, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Why do these cost 2¢ per point?


Because you could put the same spend on a cashback card and earn 2c on the dollar.


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## DeniseM (Jul 21, 2015)

You math guys are too sophisticated for me!  

By combining Starpoints with Airline credit card offers, we feel like we are getting good value.  I prefer to secure accommodations other ways.  YMMV


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## DavidnRobin (Jul 21, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> You math guys are too sophisticated for me!
> 
> By combining Starpoints with Airline credit card offers, we feel like we are getting good value.  I prefer to secure accommodations other ways.  YMMV



especially the fuzzy math experts...

one aspect of SP value is how many one already has and the ability to use (SP are more valuable to those who have few, versus those with many) - and the ability to use cash for hotel and flights (paying less cash for a hotel when SPs cost is more than cash)

I am sticking to a SP value of 2.25c/SP - works for me (and many others) YMMV

do not hold onto SPs as they devalue over time...


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 21, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> especially the fuzzy math experts...
> 
> one aspect of SP value is how many one already has and the ability to use (SP are more valuable to those who have few, versus those with many) - and the ability to use cash for hotel and flights (paying less cash for a hotel when SPs cost is more than cash)
> 
> ...



DavidnRobin,
To clarify:

We are talking about the COST of the SPoints.  By regular spends, the cost is about 2 cents per SPoint, since you can get 2% Cash with any other credit card.

The marginal COST of the next 40 to 80K SPoints is probably higher, unless you spend a TON on your Amex SPG, and/or actual hotel stays, there is no other way to earn a lot of SPoints.

Finally, if you still want to go over that next threshold level of say getting over 150 to 200K SPoints (annually), then the possible logical choice to get more SPoints is, in my opinion, getting it from conversions of SOptions.

Unless there are other ways to earn SPoints..


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 21, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> especially the fuzzy math experts...
> 
> one aspect of SP value is how many one already has and the ability to use (SP are more valuable to those who have few, versus those with many) - and the ability to use cash for hotel and flights (paying less cash for a hotel when SPs cost is more than cash)
> 
> ...



If you VALUE the SPoints at 2.25 cents, then by definition (if this analysis is correct), you would only want to acquire SPoints by Amex CC or by actual HOTEL spends.  

Since there is no other way (I think??), for you to acquire SPoints at less than 2.25 cents.

Again, we are talking about an annual accumulation of SPoints.
Since as many know, they would devalue, if you hoard them.


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## VacationForever (Jul 21, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> By combining Starpoints with Airline credit card offers, we feel like we are getting good value.  I prefer to secure accommodations other ways.  YMMV



My issue with Airline credit card is that I do not know which airline I am most likely to fly on for a future trip.  We put all our spending on SPG and Marriott credit cards.  We also convert some of the timeshares to SPG and Marriott points. We usually have around half a million points on each card before spending them down.  Currently we are saving our Marriott points to convert to the travel packages and get business class seats to Europe.  Sometimes I think we are not very smart to save them as airline point deflation is worse than hotel point deflation.  It looks like our Europe travel is going to get pushed out again.  We are always at a dilemma to spend on "little" travel vs. save for the "big" travel.


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## DavidnRobin (Jul 21, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> If you VALUE the SPoints at 2.25 cents, then by definition (if this analysis is correct), you would only want to acquire SPoints by Amex CC or by actual HOTEL spends.
> 
> Since there is no other way (I think??), for you to acquire SPoints at less than 2.25 cents.
> 
> ...



I never said I would buy them at 2.25 c/SP
I said that is what I value them at (e.g. when using fuzzy math)

My purchase price would depend on my needs (as stated previously - amount/ability to vacation) - right now I am trying to reduce my level of SPs.

Were you asking about annual accumulation rate (w/o spend) regardless of source? For us: ~80K w/o conversion of SOs or buying (have never done either - and wouldn't unless forced). Mainly accumulate via SPG AMEX, and bits here and there. In 2007, we got ~225K SP (mostly incentive) for buying WPORV EOYo from SVO - but we used them in 2009 for a 16-day London/AMS/Paris trip - followed by 2 weeks at WKORV, and 2 weeks WPORV using HomeResort/SVN

I have just converted a bunch (~80K) of SPs to AA FF, and picked up flights to WSJ next year. what is the cash value of that flight? depends... sometimes it is just better to use SPs anyway if you have plenty available.

one size does not fit all - to put a specific value on SPs (or SOs, etc) is inherently flawed by extrinsic factors (e.g. ability to travel...) thus, fuzzy math cannot be avoided


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## YYJMSP (Jul 21, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> In Canada, very few merchants take Amex though.....



You have to decide if it's worth going out of your way to patronize merchants who accept AMEX vs those that don't.

Within reason, we will choose a merchant based on the payment method they collect; however, as I said before, most points come out to around 2% of what you paid, so bottom line is collect points for every dollar you spend...


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 21, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> one size does not fit all - to put a specific value on SPs (or SOs, etc) is inherently flawed by extrinsic factors (e.g. ability to travel...) thus, fuzzy math cannot be avoided



David,
I realize your concept of fuzzy math.

To Clarify:
Your definition of fuzzy math, relies on the concept of people valuing their points / options / airline miles, etc.

I agree with that.  Those are all subjective values, and can change from person to person, from situation to situation.

However, the COST of the SPoints, is not a subjective value.  Therefore, it is not subject to your definition of "fuzzy math".

Would you agree?


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 21, 2015)

To continue..

COST = Objective

If a person purchases SPoints at 3.5 cents x 20,000.  Then there cost is $700.

There is no fuzzy math, since the cash outlay is $700.

My point is that:

SPoints - 1 to 100,000 - most households can probably spend up to this on a credit card, if they totally use their Amex to the full.

To earn additional SPoints, after that, I am theorizing that a household either needs to:
a. Purchase SPoints directly from SPG
b. Spend additional "money" to stay at SPG hotels

In (a), according to some posts, then the maximum is 20,000 per person.
For a household, that generally means 2 x 20K, for a couple.

After this, I am asking / commenting:
What other ways can you earn SPG Points?

My answer is to convert SOptions.  I would like to confirm if this is correct OR is there any other way to earn more SPoints in a given year?


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## LisaRex (Jul 21, 2015)

IMO, your best bet is to sign up with FlyerTalk.com and target credit cards that offer great sign-on bonuses.  That's the quickest and easiest way to accumulate points.  It won't be nearly as easy for you as it is for US residents, but this is definitely the route to go if you're not routinely spending tens of thousands of dollars on credit cards.  As you've figured out, for average spenders, even the best travel card requires years of spending to reach a level where you can earn a free vacation for a couple, let alone a family.  And in the meantime, you'll have paid hundreds of dollars in annual fees, which greatly offset the perks.  

Of course, there are other ways to maximize your travel budget, and the best ways are to travel in low season, rent from timeshare owners and VRBO owners (most especially on short notice), and booking with travel consolidators who can bundle flights, lodging and rental cars.   

I will warn you that if you have your heart set on traveling in first class on an economy class budget, you are in for a rude awakening.  The people who earn the best return on their dollar are those who routinely throw hundreds of thousands of dollars onto a credit card because they're either very wealthy or they have the ability to funnel their business expenses through their credit cards, OR those who fly on an expense report.  For average Joes, over the course of a few years, you may be lucky to earn a free flight or a couple nights in a hotel or villa. But I think that you're learning, slowly but surely, that nothing comes for free.


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## DavidnRobin (Jul 21, 2015)

the cost (0.35c/SP) is an intrinsic value not an extrinsic one - the fuzzy math comes later...

$700 for 20K SPs...?
20K SPs will get you 2 nights at a Cat4 SPG hotel - therefore $350/nite. problem is that many Cat4 hotels (US) can be had for $150/nite.
that is where the fuzzy math come in...

Conversion of SOs (for the most part) - especially at current offerings - is a terrible conversion to SPs (not considering the purchase cost upfront - or the ever increasing MFs and the continuous SP devaluation). It seems that you have been trying to convince yourself (and others?) that this is not the case.

if your only concern is $/SP and how to gather more - then buy an expensive from SVO (gives the most SO-SP conversion) with high MFs - get some SP incentives - and then buy those 100K SP groupings that they offer - and then convert those SOs to SPs.
such a deal...


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## LisaRex (Jul 21, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> My answer is to convert SOptions.  I would like to confirm if this is correct OR is there any other way to earn more SPoints in a given year?



Other than traveling and staying in Starwood hotels? Nope. 

Just remember that you'll be buying into the Vistana Vacation Ownership system, and not Starwood Vacation Ownership.  The affiliation between Vistana and Starwood will *probably* continue, but it's still a risk given that Starwood has publicly put itself up for sale to the highest bidder. The new management may or may not want to continue that relationship.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 21, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> I never said I would buy them at 2.25 c/SP
> I said that is what I value them at (e.g. when using fuzzy math)
> 
> My purchase price would depend on my needs (as stated previously - amount/ability to vacation) - right now I am trying to reduce my level of SPs.
> ...



David, I agree with you.  Ultimately some of the posts I am making is trying to objectively write down the numbers and an explanation of methodology for the TUG community.

I am asking for the opinion of the users, to see if the math and the methodology is correct or correct enough.

In this example, the calculation of the COST of the SPoints is pretty accurate, in my opinion.

The fuzzy math, and the valuation per person, will be subject to the interpretation of each individual.

My question still:
Is there something in the calculation and methodology that you think is incorrect?


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## Henry M. (Jul 21, 2015)

The value of all kinds of points is a all  Up in the Air. Even the cost can vary depending on how savvy you are. Some people have even figured out how to get points on credit cards without actually spending money, though it is no clear whether that is fully legal.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 21, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> To continue..
> 
> COST = Objective
> 
> ...



TUG Community - does anybody see anything wrong with the logic and methodology of this?


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## Ken555 (Jul 21, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> Ultimately some of the posts I am making is trying to objectively write down the numbers and an explanation of methodology for the TUG community.




I don't see the need for this, and not sure why you do. We've discussed this topic for many years on TUG and while there are changes over time in general it's fairly understood that any point system, including airline miles, are subject to devaluation and the cost of acquisition is highly dependent on individual circumstances. 


Sent from my iPad


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## BocaBoy (Jul 21, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> SPoints - 1 to 100,000 - most households can probably spend up to this on a credit card, if they totally use their Amex to the full.



Where I come from (and it is a wealthy U.S. suburban area), very few households could spend $100,000 on a credit card in a year.  Not anywhere even close to that.


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## YYJMSP (Jul 21, 2015)

I took this as "how much do I need to spend on credit cards to get enough points for my vacation plans to stay free" (in a very roundabout way)

I think the simplest estimate is to assume you'll get 2% back, in some fashion, of whatever you spend.

Then price out your accommodations and/or airfare.  And multiply by 50 to see how much you have to spend to get enough points of whatever kind.

So, $5K vacation means spend $250K to get the points.

You may be able to do it for less with bonuses, promotions, etch, but that gives you a ballpark to work from...

I find it funny when people think just spending $1K/mo on their credit cards will turn in to a free family trip to Hawaii every year.  Generally, that just doesn't happen.  For that, you get the deluxe toaster.


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## traveldaddy (Jul 21, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> TUG Community - does anybody see anything wrong with the logic and methodology of this?



I guess I am a little confused. I am not sure what it is you are trying to achieve.

I do not see anything wrong with the methodology - in fact it is quite obvious. If you can only spend $50K/yr on your SPG AMEX, you will only collect on that amount. You could buy more or convert staroptions (if you have that capability), but neither of these typically make sense in that the cost is higher than what you receive (but there may be special/unique and rare situations where this is not true).

If you have business/work related spend, you can also get more SPG points through stays/spend within the hotel group. 

If you think you can collect enough SPG points for a week or two of vacation for a family, with or without airfare - well, the math says, no, you probably can't. But to your own comparison of 2% cash back on $50K spend, well, you probably can't do the same for the $1K cash back either (in this example).

From a fellow Canuck, I get that you can't put everything on SPG amex - it is my go-to card and I fall close to the example above. I just got the Mariott Visa, as it does not have a foreign transaction fee - so I can pay my TS MF and other incidentals with the Visa, and the savings on FX pays for the annual fee. Between the two cards, I will be able to get some decent "free" nights and/or transfer to airline awards to try to get "free" flights. I have never considered trying to get a full week vacay from either - the best "value" is actually adding on a day or two at the beginning/end of a week TS stay to minimize the cost of airfare. Since I typically have to lock down the week prior to booking airfare (need to book TS 10-13 months in advance to get the best places/units), having that flexibility can save $80-100 per person (times 4-5 people), without putting me out of pocket for anything, and I can still get a decent place. 

Not sure how to do the fuzzy math on that though......

If you clarify a bit on your end goal we might be able to help more, but if it is only to decide how to accumulate points, as others have stated, I would not wait for several years to accumulate # of SPG points needed to have a big vacay - they could devalue on you while you accumulate. 

I hope this helpful btw. I am trying to be.

Craig


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## VacationForever (Jul 21, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> COST = Objective
> 
> My answer is to convert SOptions.  I would like to confirm if this is correct OR is there any other way to earn more SPoints in a given year?



The flaw is that you can only convert from Staroptions to Starpoints if you pay big $ to buy timeshare from developer.


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## Ken555 (Jul 21, 2015)

sptung said:


> The flaw is that you can only convert from Staroptions to Starpoints if you pay big $ to buy timeshare from developer.




Thank you! I was waiting for someone to point out the elephant in the room.

I just don't get this thread. What is its real purpose? The OP hasn't shared his goals other than in a roundabout manner. We're a fairly helpful group, but without learning more I doubt we can provide additional insight into his particular situation...other than...

MORE POINTS = GOOD 


Sent from my iPad


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 21, 2015)

To the last few replies:

Right now, the goal is to have a framework of analysis that is NOT SUBJECTIVE.

I was looking for the input and wisdom of the community to see if the analysis is flawed or if I have missed something.

If not, then can we agree(?) that the methodology is correct?
If it is, then this can provide a framework for a veteran TUGger, or a Newbie, looking to do their own analysis.

In this case, the analysis is the calculation of the COST of SPG Points.
With this calculation, you would have the basis and framework to calculate the ACTUAL COST of SPG Points.

The way you would VALUE the points is highly subjective.  But if we can all agree that the COST is correctly calculated - then discussions about the cost can be "a bit" standardized.

Note:  I do just want to have a few points/calculations to possibly show.  

However, I would first like to see if the methodology is correct.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 21, 2015)

As a resource for TS vacationers, I would like to have this site to also have accurate "math", and "methodology", so that other people can do their own analysis using these methods.

But maybe that is just me?


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 21, 2015)

Sample Questions, Calculations and Problems, using this methodology:

1. What is the cost for a Studio for New Years Week cost for a Westin Whistler (or any other Westin Resort with Rooms/Villas), using a combination of SPG Points and Star Options? (So that it is almost an apple to apple comparison)

2. What is the real/marginal cost of getting more SPG Points using StarOptions, for my own personal situation?

3. How much is this HOTEL (especially if booking LARGE PARTIES or multiple rooms) booking going to cost me, if I use SPG Points?

If you can calculate the cost, then you can infer the VALUE of the SPG Points, and thus calculate whether it is a worthwhile endeavor, financially speaking.


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## MichaelColey (Jul 21, 2015)

We use our Starwood AmEx for the vast majority of our personal spending and the spending for our two businesses, so we end up racking up way more Starpoints than most people are able to.  200-400k per year, easily.  And that's with many categories of spending being siphoned off to other cards that earn high rewards for specific categories.

We use most of our Starpoints for airline miles, but sometimes get a nice hotel when it's a good redemption value.


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## DavidnRobin (Jul 22, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> Thank you! I was waiting for someone to point out the elephant in the room.
> 
> I just don't get this thread. What is its real purpose? The OP hasn't shared his goals other than in a roundabout manner. We're a fairly helpful group, but without learning more I doubt we can provide additional insight into his particular situation...other than...
> 
> ...



I agree - based on a compilation of posts and responses - it seems shadowy.

Not even a non-linear regression model could figure this out - no way to converge on error=zero as the covariates have too many confounding variables that are both dependent and independent of each other. Resulting in 90% Prediction Intervals that are too wide for a reasonable probability of attaining a reliable estimate for $/SP as an aysmptotic approach to GOOD >> SP value.

but have at it...
-if-
More Points = Good
-and- 
Few Points = Bad
-then at-
Good=Bad
Point Value = Infinity
-result-
Life is Good

SP~2.25 cents plus/minus in my world - YMMV
(sorry - can't blame me - watching live Phish stream from Bend OR)


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## DeniseM (Jul 22, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> Not even a non-linear regression model could figure this out - no way to converge on error=zero as the covariates have too many confounding variables that are both dependent and independent of each other. Resulting in 90% Prediction Intervals that are too wide for a reasonable probability of attaining a reliable estimate for $/SP as an aysmptotic approach to GOOD >> SP value.



Exactly what I was just thinking…  :hysterical:

Dave - you speak math goodly!


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 22, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> I agree - based on a compilation of posts and responses - it seems shadowy.
> 
> SP~2.25 cents plus/minus in my world - YMMV
> (sorry - can't blame me - watching live Phish stream from Bend OR)



I'm not sure what you mean by shadowy?  Are you saying any thread that doesn't seem to match what you think is shadowy?

Does a post have to have an ultimate purpose, or is it not for discussion?

What does YMMV mean?


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 22, 2015)

traveldaddy said:


> I guess I am a little confused. I am not sure what it is you are trying to achieve.
> 
> If you clarify a bit on your end goal we might be able to help more, but if it is only to decide how to accumulate points, as others have stated, I would not wait for several years to accumulate # of SPG points needed to have a big vacay - they could devalue on you while you accumulate.
> 
> ...



I suppose the goal, is that, since this is a TS website, and we are in the Starwood forum - the discussion is between Starwood hotel stays vs Starwood TS stays.

Let us keep the conversation much simpler and compare Starwood hotel stays vs Starwood TS stays.

Maybe that would make it more clear.

Since Starwood TS stays and Starwood Hotel Stays have a possible overlap in the "currency" you can use to book them (SPG Points).


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## Pedro (Jul 22, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> I agree - based on a compilation of posts and responses - it seems shadowy.
> 
> Not even a non-linear regression model could figure this out - no way to converge on error=zero as the covariates have too many confounding variables that are both dependent and independent of each other. Resulting in 90% Prediction Intervals that are too wide for a reasonable probability of attaining a reliable estimate for $/SP as an aysmptotic approach to GOOD >> SP value.


I really like your math/statistics explanation!

I think it can get even more complicated than that as the real value of the SPs is a function of how they are earned and how they are spent.

I'm in the bay area for 3 nights this week @ $200/night and the stay will result in:
Platinum amenity: 500 SP
Green choice: 500 x 2 nights = 1000 SP
Starpoints for stay: 600 x 4 = 2400
SPs for using the SPG Amex = 1200

Total starpoints = 5,100

This morning I made a reservation for the 4 Points in Barcelona at a total cost of 11,000 SPs for 3 nights. The cost would have been about 170 euros/night (~$185/night) for a total of $555. The SPs I'm earning this week on my stay at the bay area pretty much cover half of the reservation in Barcelona, or about $250 in savings. 

So, to continue with the fuzzy math, $600 spent -> 5,100 points -> $250 in savings or $0.05/SP.


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## VacationForever (Jul 22, 2015)

Pedro said:


> I really like your math/statistics explanation!
> 
> I think it can get even more complicated than that as the real value of the SPs is a function of how they are earned and how they are spent.
> 
> ...



 on the other hand, a quick check showed that at Westin St Francis in San Francisco costs around $400 per night or $16K points per night, which comes up to about $0.025/SP.  So to get better value out of SPs, we should only travel to Europe and stay in multiple of 5 nights (4 nights, 1 night free).


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## Jason245 (Jul 22, 2015)

sptung said:


> on the other hand, a quick check showed that at Westin St Francis in San Francisco costs around $400 per night or $16K points per night, which comes up to about $0.025/SP.  So to get better value out of SPs, we should only travel to Europe and stay in multiple of 5 nights (4 nights, 1 night free).


I have gotten 4 to 6 cents a point in value staying at westin and other high up spg hotel peoperties.. if you ever have a chance..the one in paris is GREAT..

Tip:use cash and points and sometimes you can get even more bang for the points. 


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## traveldaddy (Jul 22, 2015)

sptung said:


> on the other hand, a quick check showed that at Westin St Francis in San Francisco costs around $400 per night or $16K points per night, which comes up to about $0.025/SP.  So to get better value out of SPs, we should only travel to Europe and stay in multiple of 5 nights (4 nights, 1 night free).



Which demonstrates the fallacy of trying to pin down a cost in this fashion perfectly. 

I can "save" more or get more "value" by doing something I wasn't planning on doing anyway. If you "save" 60% off something you don't need, you just wasted the 40% you paid for......

My belief is that it is up to each individual to look at their specific circumstances and try to optimize around what they want to do.......the value in these types of threads is to get ideas from others in their approaches to see what you might be able to apply to make your own specific circumsatnces better. I don't see how you can make a formula for one size fits all...and if you did, the factors would change in short order (devaluation, relative prices, etc.). I am probably preachng to the choir though.


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## SMHarman (Jul 22, 2015)

sptung said:


> on the other hand, a quick check showed that at Westin St Francis in San Francisco costs around $400 per night or $16K points per night, which comes up to about $0.025/SP.  So to get better value out of SPs, we should only travel to Europe and stay in multiple of 5 nights (4 nights, 1 night free).


$16000 spend would get $320 cashback to spend on the room. And that would earn you 960 StarPoints at checkout. 

As you say that stay is a StarPoints wash.

Now the 32000 I dropped on on a Sat and Sun at Weston St John to extend that stay instead of $559 a night. That's sweet value.


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## okwiater (Jul 22, 2015)

My guess is very few people actually "save" money using StarPoints. Vacation budgets are relatively fixed. Instead, the value you get from StarPoints is that they sometimes make an option available that you would not otherwise have considered.

Case in point: on an upcoming trip to Mexico, I had budgeted $700/ea for round trip flights, enough for economy class. We never pay extra for First/Business. However, I was able to get a first-class outbound ticket for 30,000 Delta miles, and an economy return for $150. For the 2 of us, that's a total of 48,000 Starpoints + $300. In other words, I'm still spending about $1,400, but I'm improving the options that are available to me for that money.


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## YYJMSP (Jul 22, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> Sample Questions, Calculations and Problems, using this methodology:
> 
> 1. What is the cost for a Studio for New Years Week cost for a Westin Whistler (or any other Westin Resort with Rooms/Villas), using a combination of SPG Points and Star Options? (So that it is almost an apple to apple comparison)
> 
> ...



We can probably answer #1, based on what a SO costs if you tell us what you own.  If you don't own anything, there are multiple theoretical and real answers to this question...  there is no general answer...

We don't know the details of your personal situation so how can we help answer #2 without specific information?

#3 is a fixed amount you can calculate off the SPG site deepening in what day you arrive, how long you're staying, and how many rooms.  I don't think you need our help with this one...


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## DavidnRobin (Jul 22, 2015)

^^^^ these above posts are a great examples of why an exercise that generalizes SP value can be futile ^^^^

Always maximize SP accumulation and usage, but don't go into unnecessary debt doing so.
SP value for one is not necessarily the value for others.
Vacationing costs money and time.

_Defn: Shadowy - of uncertain identity or nature._


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## canesfan (Jul 22, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> What does YMMV mean?


 
Your Miles May Vary

And that has been the whole discussion about this round about and fuzzy math.  What works for one person may not work for you.

I just got back for an Europe trip.  Originally I was going to buy my ticket with AA ff miles.  As it turned out the taxes on the FF miles were so high, we decided to wait on use those miles for our upcoming Hawaii trip. I ended up earning more miles on this Europe flight, so that was added bonus for us.

For the Italy portion of our trip, we used SPG points for Florence and SPG cash & points for Venice. For 15,000 pts & $305 USD I was able to stay at the Gritti Palace which at the time the standard room price was over $1000/night.  If I'd paid all SPG points, it would have been 30,000/night.  In Florence, I wasn't able to do cash & points and I paid 25,000 for the Westin Excelsior.  For me, the value was more in the Gritti Palace.  For others maybe it would've been the Excelsior.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 22, 2015)

Hi All,
The last few posts were based on the VALUE of the SPG Points, which I agree can be done with fuzzy math.

The costs of the points, is not a fuzzy math calculation.

"You" either would have earned it via SPG Amex (about 2 cents), or purchased it (about 2.625 to 3.5 cents, or 1.9 cents, if you purchased it through a promo via TS purchase).
Or you would you have earned it via stays or bonus points (in which case, you cost could be lower).

Sorry to be so anal about it.  Again, just trying to point out that the cost is not the same as the value.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 22, 2015)

YYJMSP said:


> We don't know the details of your personal situation so how can we help answer #2 without specific information?



Sorry.  "My situation" means a person's situation, not actually mine.

So newcomers can have a framework for doing their calculation.

As veteran TUGgers, this may all seem obvious.  But for a newbie, they do need the help (I think).


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## DeniseM (Jul 22, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite - you are clearly a very analytical person.  Do you have a math or engineering background?


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 22, 2015)

Nope. Finance.


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## DeniseM (Jul 22, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> Nope. Finance.



There you go - Because of your background, I think you have a far more analytical view of timesharing than most Tuggers, and that is why your approach is getting a lukewarm reception.  

Don't take it personally - I think that most people view timesharing as more of an Art, than a Science, because personal preference plays a huge role in the  perception of value.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 22, 2015)

No worries.  That's what the forums are for.  Sharing of opinions and perspectives.


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## VacationForever (Jul 22, 2015)

SMHarman said:


> $16000 spend would get $320 cashback to spend on the room. And that would earn you 960 StarPoints at checkout.
> 
> As you say that stay is a StarPoints wash.
> 
> Now the 32000 I dropped on on a Sat and Sun at Weston St John to extend that stay instead of $559 a night. That's sweet value.



It is 16000 points, not $...


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## DavidnRobin (Jul 22, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> There you go - Because of your background, I think you have a far more analytical view of timesharing than most Tuggers, and that is why your approach is getting a lukewarm reception.
> 
> Don't take it personally - I think that most people view timesharing as more of an Art, than a Science, because personal preference plays a huge role in the  perception of value.



This, and that most have us have had this journey already in one form or another - with variations on this theme. And, you are not the first to discuss these topics - many of us have 'advised' before. Sometimes successfully - sometimes not.  Sometimes we learn something new, and sometimes come to new awareness on our journey.

I am in an analytical profession as well, but luckily (for me) mine combines science, math and art - and not just math.  Making optimal decisions built upon imperfect information is inherently problematic and confounding - which I think matches the SP cost/value evaluation exercise quite well.  As I often discuss with my pure math colleagues (Modeling&Simulation)... depending purely on the numbers (math) can be a mistake when presented with imperfect data.

so... as I believe time=money and that can be highly variable for individuals - estimation of cost-value for a 'Typical' individual can not only be futile, it can also be misleading.
In this case - it is sometimes best to take a consensus view based on knowledge, then learn-confirm. I would not buy SPs at 2.25 cents/SP - others would.

The best use of SP (from a $/SP) perspective is to use them outside the US (based on consensus and personal experience). Even these rates are high variable, but comparing them to the highest rate is the approach a SVO salesperson will always use to sell a VOI, and that is the worst scenario for the customer for purposes of comparison.


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## SMHarman (Jul 22, 2015)

sptung said:


> It is 16000 points, not $...


Unless you are spending on Starwood hotels or MF, earning on the card is 1:1. 
So to get 16,000 points you spent $16,000. 
If at Starwood it may be the 5 points per $ but in general it's one.

If instead you had spent that $16k on a cashback card at 2% average cashback. More on gas. Less on groceries etc then you would have received a $320 cashback check.


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## tante (Jul 22, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> There you go - Because of your background, I think you have a far more analytical view of timesharing than most Tuggers, and that is why your approach is getting a lukewarm reception.
> 
> Don't take it personally - I think that most people view timesharing as more of an Art, than a Science, because personal preference plays a huge role in the  perception of value.



I could not agree more. I don't necessarily want to go to the places with the highest redemption because that is when it is often most crowded.  I am okay considering points a discount on a room or flight and would rather just spend them than save them.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 22, 2015)

tante said:


> I could not agree more. I don't necessarily want to go to the places with the highest redemption because that is when it is often most crowded.  I am okay considering points a discount on a room or flight and would rather just spend them than save them.



Totally agree.  Hence for Cat 4 or above.

Even then, I try not to stay in Cat 4s, mainly Cat 5 and above, if it is an SPG hotel.  (Unless it is for work, then Four Points are generally OK).

So even if the SPG nightly rate is 3000 points at say $150
Would rather stay at the 16000 points at say $400

Even though the math would say stay at the "cheaper" hotel...
That is where the value judgment takes place.

But in both instances, the COST of the Starpoints is still the same.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 22, 2015)

DavidnRobin said:


> This, and that most have us have had this journey already in one form or another - with variations on this theme. And, you are not the first to discuss these topics - many of us have 'advised' before. Sometimes successfully - sometimes not.  Sometimes we learn something new, and sometimes come to new awareness on our journey.
> 
> I am in an analytical profession as well, but luckily (for me) mine combines science, math and art - and not just math.  Making optimal decisions built upon imperfect information is inherently problematic and confounding - which I think matches the SP cost/value evaluation exercise quite well.  As I often discuss with my pure math colleagues (Modeling&Simulation)... depending purely on the numbers (math) can be a mistake when presented with imperfect data.
> 
> ...



Therefore, if the topic keeps coming up, especially for newer guys like myself, then I think it would be good to have a sticky somewhere so that we can all refer to that master document, if "most everyone" agrees on the methodology.

Again, for COST, not VALUE.


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## SMHarman (Jul 22, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> Totally agree.  Hence for Cat 4 or above.
> 
> Even then, I try not to stay in Cat 4s, mainly Cat 5 and above, if it is an SPG hotel.  (Unless it is for work, then Four Points are generally OK).
> 
> ...


Nope. Not here. I am using 3000 points to stay at the Providence airport Sheraton on they way to the cape. Cheaper than cash. 

I pretty much use the math here and if cash is cheaper spend it and earn points or if points are cheaper use them. 

I'm weighing up buying 6000 points for this weekend to do a cash and points stay that will be cheaper than cash or points!


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## Jason245 (Jul 22, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> Therefore, if the topic keeps coming up, especially for newer guys like myself, then I think it would be good to have a sticky somewhere so that we can all refer to that master document, if "most everyone" agrees on the methodology.
> 
> Again, for COST, not VALUE.



Cost can be viewed in two ways:

Way number 1: Opportunity cost - in this case it is easy to calculate. SPG card = 1 point per dollar spend, vs a 2 Percent Cash back card means that each point is costing you a minimum of 2 percent cash back.  

Way number 2: Minimum Cash flow cost. There are a number of opportunities out there to "manufacture" spend on a credit card which artificially generates points at no cost or very little cost. One example of this was the US circulating $1 Coin program where some people orderd  hundreds of thousands or more in one dollar coins (shipped to them for free) (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB126014168569179245).

I know of many people who have used way number 2 to earn millions of points spread over many programs and thousands of dollars in cash back over the years. (look at threads in flyertalk and fatwallet).

I would also like to point out (as a general rule) It is not ideal to ever convert your TS into Hotel points with any of the programs that allow this. My understanding is that the value received compared to MF cost is way out of wack.


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## Ken555 (Jul 22, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> Therefore, if the topic keeps coming up, especially for newer guys like myself, then I think it would be good to have a sticky somewhere so that we can all refer to that master document, if "most everyone" agrees on the methodology.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, for COST, not VALUE.




I would suspect the reason a sticky on this topic is unnecessary is due to the obviousness of the issue at hand. Of course points cost money, in some form or another. This is obvious. 


Sent from my iPad


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 22, 2015)

Ken555 said:


> I would suspect the reason a sticky on this topic is unnecessary is due to the obviousness of the issue at hand. Of course points cost money, in some form or another. This is obvious.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad



Obvious = Points cost money. YES

How much actual money = Not so obvious.

Which is why, we all can't even agree on how to calculate the cost of the SPG Points.


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 22, 2015)

Jason245 said:


> Cost can be viewed in two ways:
> 
> Way number 2: Minimum Cash flow cost. There are a number of opportunities out there to "manufacture" spend on a credit card which artificially generates points at no cost or very little cost. One example of this was the US circulating $1 Coin program where some people orderd  hundreds of thousands or more in one dollar coins (shipped to them for free) (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB126014168569179245).



Way number 2 seems like an extreme way to do things.


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## DeniseM (Jul 22, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> Way number 2 seems like an extreme way to do things.



If you visit the credit card user websites, the creative and crazy ways to earn points is a major topic.  Not my cup of tea, but I do like to earn bonus points by churning credit cards a bit.

Since the AMEX credit card and SPG points are really hotel products, and not timeshare products, the points topic isn't as big here.

Also - many Tugger bought resale, so their timeshares don't have Starpoints, and many/most don't have AMEX cards, so probably only a small percentage of Starwood owners are interested in the points.


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## Jason245 (Jul 22, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> Way number 2 seems like an extreme way to do things.



Way number 2 gave me:

2 business class tickets to Paris
2 nights in the Waldorf Astoria Versailles
1 night in the Hilton by CDG
4 Nights in the Paris Etoil SPG property

Total cost of a 1 week trip to paris like a high roller - ~$300 in flight taxes, ~$500 in food and ~20 hours of "extreme" work, ~$150 transportation and sightseeing and a priceless memory. 

I will let you figure out the value of what was received.


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## DeniseM (Jul 22, 2015)

Jason245 said:


> Way number 2 gave me:
> 
> 2 business class tickets to Paris
> 2 nights in the Waldorf Astoria Versailles
> ...



Slumming, huh?


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## Jason245 (Jul 22, 2015)

DeniseM said:


> Slumming, hun?


I was pissed cause the Vendome westin was booked. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 22, 2015)

I'm lazy, so those costs are extreme.  Haha.

Just normal spend Amex, maybe purchase SPG.

However, I don't remember who, but someone says they do the MF/Option/Points way.

Marginal Cost Way:  MF / Convert to Points = LESS THAN BUYING FROM SPG
vs.
Total Allocated Cost : (MF + S/L Dep'n 10 or 20 or 30 years) / Points = MORE THAN BUYING FROM SPG

So depending on how you cost it, it will affect on how you would ACQUIRE points, should you need it (or the hierarchy on how you acquire the points).


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## Ken555 (Jul 22, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> Obvious = Points cost money. YES
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Of course it's obvious. The issue you're facing is that not everyone wants to even consider that their vanity credit cards have a direct cost to them for the "free" points. Each of us tends to value them differently, and I highly doubt you will ever reach a consensus on this issue. Personally, as I believe I posted earlier, I value them at 2% since I consider a cash back credit card to be the true comparison (of course that's not even exactly accurate, since I believe I might have to declare that money taxable income, but whatever...). 

Ultimately, there isn't one size that fits all with this issue. Sooner or later you'll realize that, and then start to focus only on your own travel plans...in which we can certainly help you maximize your points! 


Sent from my iPad


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## SMHarman (Jul 22, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> Way number 2 seems like an extreme way to do things.


Really. For the longest time the United Beneficial card in the UK gave miles on balance transfers and no charge for those transfers. 

I bounced money between that card and two others. I could roll 25k every two weeks. Was awesome until beneficial moved to a new credit card platform and the party was over.


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## okwiater (Jul 22, 2015)

OK, then. Cost of points depends on method of accumulation.


SPG credit card costs > $0.02/SP because plenty of other cards will pay you 2% straight cash.
Direct purchase costs $0.027-$0.035/SP depending on the promotion.
Conversion of SVO units costs a minimum of $0.014/SP but much more for most ownerships.
Starpoints certificates cost $0.019/SP.
Staying at hotels has various costs/SP.
Not sure how much more analysis one can do to determine the costs of obtaining Starpoints.


Whether or not to exercise a given option depends on (1) how many Starpoints you have available; (2) how many Starpoints you anticipate using within a given time period; and (3) the redemption value of the Starpoints you anticipate using.


Personally, I *never* redeem Starpoints at a value of under $0.02, because I am paying for new ones at that price every time I make an SPG AMEX purchase. However, whether or not I choose to exercise an option to purchase Starpoints at a higher price depends on how many I have and how many I need. I'll purchase Starpoints at $0.03 if I'm in short supply and want to redeem them at a value of > $0.03. But if I have hundreds of thousands of them, I won't pay that price.


How much more analysis is useful to do?


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## tante (Jul 22, 2015)

@okwaiter

What do u value spg gold status?


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## DavidnRobin (Jul 22, 2015)

tante said:


> What do u value spg gold status?



I would put SPG Gold value at $30-40/year - for me. This is what I would pay for the amount of usage I get from it.
zero for SVN 3* as I get no use from it - yet (that I am aware of).
YMMV (and likely does)

make sure to consider the TUG membership cost ($15) in the calculations - since much more than $15 worth of info is spewed daily


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## okwiater (Jul 22, 2015)

tante said:


> @okwaiter
> 
> What do u value spg gold status?



Not much, maybe $50 per year. I am 5* PFL now though, that's probably worth $3-400 per year with my usage.


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## tante (Jul 22, 2015)

okwiater said:


> Not much, maybe $50 per year. I am 5* PFL now though, that's probably worth $3-400 per year with my usage.



I don't know what a 5* PFL is. Can you clarify?


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## canesfan (Jul 22, 2015)

Platinum for life


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## Wanttobe5StarElite (Jul 23, 2015)

okwiater said:


> OK, then. Cost of points depends on method of accumulation.
> 
> 
> SPG credit card costs > $0.02/SP because plenty of other cards will pay you 2% straight cash.
> ...



So your hierarchy of purchasing/redemption, if you need additional SPG Points should be:
a. Convert SOptions
b. Starpoints Certificates
c. SPG Credit Card
d. Direct purchase

Based on your own calculations, would you say you generally convert SOptions first, if you need some SPoints?

That doesn't really match up to the premise of not converting your SOptions, as this would directly contradict the opinion of most TUGgers.  (unless you have a higher/better use on your SOptions).


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## Henry M. (Jul 23, 2015)

tante said:


> I don't know what a 5* PFL is. Can you clarify?



5* = 5 Star Elite level in the Starwood Vacation Network program
PFL = Platinum for Life in the Starwood Preferred Guest hotel program, a benefit of being 5 Star Elite. You can achieve Platinum status by staying a certain number of nights at Starwood hotels every year.


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## LisaRex (Jul 23, 2015)

emuyshondt said:


> 5* = 5 Star Elite level in the Starwood Vacation Network program
> PFL = Platinum for Life in the Starwood Preferred Guest hotel program, a benefit of being 5 Star Elite. You can achieve Platinum status by staying a certain number of nights at Starwood hotels every year.



...And PFL is a misnomer because you're not Platinum for Life.  You're platinum for as long as you own the minimum # of SOs required to achieve  5* elite status.  This means that you've sunk tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars into developer purchases and thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars in annual MFs.  It's also possible that this perk will end should the relationship between Vistana and Starwood end.


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## Pedro (Jul 23, 2015)

LisaRex said:


> ...And PFL is a misnomer because you're not Platinum for Life.  You're platinum for as long as you own the minimum # of SOs required to achieve  5* elite status.  This means that you've sunk tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars into developer purchases and thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars in annual MFs.  It's also possible that this perk will end should the relationship between Vistana and Starwood end.



Some of us tuggers are actually Platinum for Life based not only on 5* elite status, but because of the numbers of nights at hotels along with years of platinum status. Even if the relationship between Vistana and Starwood were to end, the PFL benefit would still there.


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## okwiater (Jul 23, 2015)

LisaRex said:


> ...and thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars in annual MFs.



Yes, but I would never recommend owning a timeshare where the annual MFs are worth more than your usage rights. I consider SPG Platinum a benefit whose cost was prepaid by my developer purchases. My annual MFs are for my usage, nothing more.


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## LisaRex (Jul 23, 2015)

Pedro said:


> Some of us tuggers are actually Platinum for Life based not only on 5* elite status, but because of the numbers of nights at hotels along with years of platinum status. Even if the relationship between Vistana and Starwood were to end, the PFL benefit would still there.



Yes, that is an important distinction. 



			
				okwiater said:
			
		

> Yes, but I would never recommend owning a timeshare where the annual MFs are worth more than your usage rights. I consider SPG Platinum a benefit whose cost was prepaid by my developer purchases. My annual MFs are for my usage, nothing more.



I agree with you, however, my main point was that if you acquire "PFL" status via timeshare purchases, it will go away if you sell a unit, or quit paying the developer-backed financing agreement/and/or MFs, and fall below the minimum SOs required to retain 5* elite status.  IOW, it's not really for "life" but for the life of your 5* ownership.  And it also dependent on the continued relationship between Vistana (timeshares) and Starwood (hotels), though I suppose they COULD grandfather their SVN elite members as part of any merger or acquisition.  

Folks like pedro who earned PFL the old fashioned way, by being road warriors, are a different breed.  Once they  achieve PFL in the Starwood program, they are, indeed, a Platinum member for life, for as long as SPG remains in existence.


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## YYJMSP (Jul 23, 2015)

Wanttobe5StarElite said:


> Way number 2 seems like an extreme way to do things.



You also have to be careful not to get burned as some transactions (go look at your cardholder agreement, most specifically mention exclusions of cash-like purchases)  could get defined as funds advances and will likely cost more in interest than any value you would earn...

Same may apply if you make purchases from your own merchant account...


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## SMHarman (Jul 23, 2015)

SMHarman said:


> Nope. Not here. I am using 3000 points to stay at the Providence airport Sheraton on they way to the cape. Cheaper than cash.
> 
> I pretty much use the math here and if cash is cheaper spend it and earn points or if points are cheaper use them.
> 
> I'm weighing up buying 6000 points for this weekend to do a cash and points stay that will be cheaper than cash or points!


So just made that cash and points booking. And will earn 1000 points back with the current promotion. Sweet.


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## clotheshorse (Jul 24, 2015)

LisaRex said:


> ...And PFL is a misnomer because you're not Platinum for Life.  You're platinum for as long as you own the minimum # of SOs required to achieve  5* elite status.  This means that you've sunk tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars into developer purchases and thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars in annual MFs.  It's also possible that this perk will end should the relationship between Vistana and Starwood end.



I agree.  After buying five resales (just sold one), I was recently convinced to purchase a developer unit to bring in one of my resales so I can "use starpoints".  I got caught up in looking for a value transaction to pay for business class tickets through point conversions.  I woke up and recinded of course!  I knew better!  I don't have the SPG Amex and realized that I can achieve the "benefits" offered by the developer if I just put all my charges on the SPG Amex and buy 20K points for $700 if I really needed extra points.  Going this route does not commit me to a 20K purchase that I didn't need or the extra maintence fees.


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## JessI (Aug 1, 2015)

I'm a fair newbie as an owner but been SPG Plat through the hotel side for 8 years.    Like most others have said, every single thing that we spend goes on the SPG AmEx.  No questions asked.

We get 120000 SPG points every year from the credit card.  We did the calculations that it is cheaper to reach PFL by literally buying the nights that we need and going through the hotel side and using award stays since those count too.  This may not work for everyone but for us, that's how we plan on reaching  PFL and its much much cheaper than buying another TS to reach the requirements.


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## SMHarman (Aug 1, 2015)

^ and more permanent. 
It's true. $42000 gets you 420 $100 mattress run room nights and then another 200,000 ish starpoints for more nights. 
That's a lot of vacay.


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