# The nightmare that will not end



## Vtoriaholt

Please read the blog that I posted on Open Salon regarding my experience with Starwood Vacation Ownership.

http://open.salon.com/blog/victoria_holt/2011/09/07/the_nightmare_that_will_not_end_1


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## DeniseM

I am sorry for your troubles, but all of the issues that you are having problems with are commonly known facts that are available many places including the written materials you were given when you purchased, mystarcentral.com, and here on TUG, among other places.

When you purchased, you received a binder that explained how the program worked - everything was spelled out there.

As far as timeshare sales people go, you can trust them about as far as you can throw them - they are in the same league with used car salesmen.  The only thing that matters when you buy a timeshare is the written contract and support materials.  Unfortunately, the sales people will say whatever it takes to make a sale.


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## VacationForever

Victoria,

You have our sympathies BUT Tuggers here are a bunch of very happy Starwood timeshare owners.  Not once have I felt cheated or lied to by the system.  When you buy a timeshare at a location, you are only guaranteed your week at that location based on the week/season listed.  Anything else is dependent on supply and demand.  I have never expected my "cheap" maintenance week to snag a prime week at an "expensive" maintenance resort.  If I do, it is a bonus; if not I get what I paid for.  

I have had many vacations during Xmas week thru trading in Interval International.  Your friends will get excellent trades in the external trading system as well, including all Starwood resorts with the exception of St. John and Harborside.  

I am a very happy Starwood owner.

SP


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## C30NY

They will have priority in II for other starwood properties!  If that makes you / them feel any better!


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## Vtoriaholt

I guess I would not be so unhappy if Starwood Vacation Ownership had just told me that I could not convey what we had.  Same thing goes for the law firm.  I made it real clear what we were trying to accomplish and if they could not do it, someone should have just told me.


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## siesta

Vtoriaholt said:


> I guess I would not be so unhappy if Starwood Vacation Ownership had just told me that I could not convey what we had.  Same thing goes for the law firm.  I made it real clear what we were trying to accomplish and if they could not do it, someone should have just told me.


but then they couldnt get money out of you if they told you the truth.


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## alexadeparis

Well, I understand how you feel. The thing is, you did convey exactly what you had in terms of resort, unit size and season. The "vacation network package" is not deedable, it is the "extra" that you get for buying through the developer. (And while some resorts will transfer the "starpoints", that is only IF that is in the HOA docs.) You can only convey what was conveyed to you. The enrollment in SVN was a separate piece on top of the deed. But I do understand how you may have been misled.


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## LisaRex

Where did you buy? 

Salesmen have been fairly criticized in the past for oversimplifiying the SVO system, promising folks that all they need to do is call the SVO number and exchange into any other SVO resort in the system -- simple as that!  That is true, only in theory.  In reality, they neglect to emphasize that it is always subject to availability -- and at times involves planning, tenacity, and luck to secure the week you want at the resort you want.  So they deserve that criticism.  However.  The fact that they snared you a Christmas week at Westin St. John as a result of your complaint was, in my opinion, more than adequate compensation.   FYI, that was an $8-10,000 "gift." 

I also know this:  Had, in the 5 years that you owned your Starwood resorts, ever asked any of the reservationists how you could improve your chances of getting the exchanges you sought, I guarantee you that they would have given you solid advice.  

FWIW, I own in Hawaii.  I've exchanged twice into Westin St. John during platinum plus season by calling as soon as the exchange window opens up.  I maximize my chances by calling at 8 months out to the day, at 9am.  I tried to get an exchange in 2010, but was unsuccessful in getting a week that I wanted at WSJ.  They offered up other resorts, but I wasn't interested.  So I ended up booking a week and renting it out so that I could be compensated for my MFs. 

It's a shame that your experience was so dismal.  Part of that undeniably lies at the feet of Starwood because I can think of a dozen ways that they have harmed their own product.  But some of the blame also lies at your feet.  You should have learned the SVO system.  

BTW, I'm also perplexed why you'd sell your friends a timeshare system that you decry as being "a nightmare." 

My suggestion now that you sold is twofold: 

1) Let it go.  If you think that negative publicity is going to twist Starwood's arm into making you whole on your investment, you will be surprised how deaf they can be to complaints. 

2) Send the friends who bought your TSs to TUG.  We'll help them learn the system and maximize their ownership.


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## DeniseM

Please direct your friends to TUG - we can help them get the most out of their ownership.


As another poster said, they CAN still trade this timeshare.  They will just use an exchange company, instead of Starwood.  It is very doable.


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## DavidnRobin

Sorry but I am missing the point - the blog appears to be mixing up the issues.  I will have to go jarta here - it is critical to not misinterpret or over-interpret what a TS salesperson is telling you - plus you signed a contract laying out the program that also states that anything you were told verbally is not valid unless in the contract.

TS salespeople misinform (aka as lying) to get you to buy, and you thought you got something to good to be true (eg WSJ event week) - and you signed the contract... plenty of blame to go around.

No lawyer would touch this...
Not intended to be harsh - just truthful


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## grgs

DavidnRobin said:


> I will have to go jarta here



Thanks for making me smile this morning.  

I didn't weigh in on your WPORV post, but I did check in to see which way you'd go!


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## ronparise

It sounds like your nightmare has ended...It now belongs to your friends

As has already been suggested, have your friends come here to learn how to use and appreciate what you sold them

Not to put too fine a point on it, but have you considered that you have done to your friends exactly what you think was done to you? Can we expect to read about you in your friends blog? like we read about Starwood in yours.


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## komosatp

Distilling the blog post for others:

The OP bought two weeks at a resort other-than-where-she-intended-to-stay; I think the Westin Kierland _[sic-see below]_.  Salesman say she'll be able to book Christmas at WSJ.  When she tries to book at WSJ, she finds no availability.  _No shocker to TUGers, but I remember leaving one of my sales pitches with this expectation_

She later wants to sell her unit, and SVO refers her to agents that require a fee to list her unit.  Also asks SVO if she can just give her unit back to SVO.  SVO says no, and they'll sue her for costs if she don't pay.

Later gives her units away to friend or family, assuming SVN options transfer to new owner.  New owners find out it doesn't.  And SVO won't talk to the poster because she's no longer an owner.


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## Numismatist

Vtoriaholt said:


> ... someone should have just told me.



They don't.


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## siesta

komosatp said:


> Distilling the blog post for others:
> 
> The OP bought two weeks at a resort other-than-where-she-intended-to-stay; I think the Westin Kierland.  Salesman say she'll be able to book Christmas at WSJ.  When she tries to book at WSJ, she finds no availability.  _No shocker to TUGers, but I remember leaving one of my sales pitches with this expectation_
> 
> She later wants to sell her unit, and SVO refers her to agents that require a fee to list her unit.  Also asks SVO if she can just give her unit back to SVO.  SVO says no, and they'll sue her for costs if she don't pay.
> 
> Later gives her units away to friend or family, assuming SVN options transfer to new owner.  New owners find out it doesn't.  And SVO won't talk to the poster because she's no longer an owner.


 she didnt buy kierland, because the staroptions WOULD transfer as its a mandatory resort. And also she referred to what she owned as a swamp so im assuming she bought SVR or SVV other than bella or key west.


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## Living the Dream

While I don't necessarily have all the same issues as the original poster, my sentiments are similar.  The salesmen will tell you baldfaced lies to get you to buy.  And Starwood turns a deaf ear to any complaints you may have.

Starwood timeshares, bought through the company, are grossly overpriced for what one pays.  While we enjoy using the facility where we bought, we would never recommend buying to anyone who asks.


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## presley

komosatp said:


> Distilling the blog post for others:
> 
> The OP bought two weeks at a resort other-than-where-she-intended-to-stay; I think the Westin Kierland _[sic-see below]_.  Salesman say she'll be able to book Christmas at WSJ.  When she tries to book at WSJ, she finds no availability.  _No shocker to TUGers, but I remember leaving one of my sales pitches with this expectation_
> 
> She later wants to sell her unit, and SVO refers her to agents that require a fee to list her unit.  Also asks SVO if she can just give her unit back to SVO.  SVO says no, and they'll sue her for costs if she don't pay.
> 
> Later gives her units away to friend or family, assuming SVN options transfer to new owner.  New owners find out it doesn't.  And SVO won't talk to the poster because she's no longer an owner.



Thanks for the summary.  I wasn't willing to click a link posted by someone who just joined.


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## timeos2

Vtoriaholt said:


> I guess I would not be so unhappy if Starwood Vacation Ownership had just told me that I could not convey what we had.  Same thing goes for the law firm.  I made it real clear what we were trying to accomplish and if they could not do it, someone should have just told me.



Many timeshare programs do this even as they tout the lifetime ownership and how you can sell or will it to others when you are "done" with it - never mentioning that they strip all but the bare deeded ownership if you actually do sell (except to family at some but not all).  

It is dirty pool played strictly to benefit their retail sales, it isn't right and is another reason to always buy resale (thus you pay far less & know exactly what you bought & can resell when ready).

$58K??? There is no way anyone should ever pay that for any timeshare but that is water long gone under the bridge.  You were had but now it's your friends problem. You did what you could - now move on (and kiss $58k goodbye - yikes!)


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## VacationForever

DavidnRobin said:


> No lawyer would touch this...
> Not intended to be harsh - just truthful



Unless she pays the lawyer upfront fees for taking on the case


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## tomandrobin

I would assume the OP bought at Westin Kierland. If so, the the resort is Mandatory. 

But if the sold the OP bought another resort, nothing after WKV is Mandatory. 

I wish the OP would have found Tug before all this went down.


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## siesta

tomandrobin said:


> I would assume the OP bought at Westin Kierland. If so, the the resort is Mandatory.


 from the OP's blog


“*So, what it appears that we have purchased is swamp land in Florida*.* We are still paying cash for all of our travel, and have timeshares that are useless to us for our type of travel.* We travel during peak times and are not flexible in changing the timing of our travel because of some “preferred guest” program that really does not suit our needs.”


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## tomandrobin

siesta said:


> from the OP's blog
> 
> 
> “*So, what it appears that we have purchased is swamp land in Florida*.* We are still paying cash for all of our travel, and have timeshares that are useless to us for our type of travel.* We travel during peak times and are not flexible in changing the timing of our travel because of some “preferred guest” program that really does not suit our needs.”




I saw that, but was not sure if she was being factual or tongue-in-cheek. You could read into that either way.


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## Vtoriaholt

It really is swamp land in Florida.  Vistana Ranch or something like that.  We have never been there.  We actually love Westin Kierland.


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## K&PFitz

If nothing else, the OP could read here at TUG about how to rent out timeshares, and at least cover part of the annual expense.  It's also hard to believe that if they plan far enough in advance that they couldn't find something acceptable to trade for through II.

Still, I sympathize, as I bought full retail before I knew the ropes.  I honestly believed that someday, if I chose, I'd be able to resell the timeshare to cover my original cost. :rofl: 

Water under the bridge though, and we've been able to trade for places that would have cost far more to rent than our annual expense.


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## Vtoriaholt

Cash seems to work pretty well to rent hotel rooms.


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## LisaRex

Vtoriaholt said:


> Cash seems to work pretty well to rent hotel rooms.



That's true.  But hotels don't have kitchens and a washer and dryer en suite. When traveling with our kids, and in an age where they charge you for every piece of checked luggage, I appreciate having both of these amenities. 

In a few short years, our needs will change because our kids will be gone.  So we might sell our annual WKORV unit and use our EOY SVV to exchange into studios/1 bdrms, which will be perfect for 2.  

To Vtoriaholt, I'd also recommend looking into renting houses via VRBO.  I've rented three houses from private owners and I've yet to be disappointed.  If/when we sell our Hawaii timeshare, I'm eyeing a few condos that I'd love to try out.


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## timeos2

Vtoriaholt said:


> Cash seems to work pretty well to rent hotel rooms.



Very well with many timeshares too - often for less than annual fees & with far more control over date, unit size and more. Not true for every resort but more & more it seems especially the "mega" resorts with far more units than demand and the smaller ones where owners just want to get something back from their fees but don't want to sell.  The toughest are the nice, mid-sized ones where demand and inventories tend to equal out.  Also the best to own if they have owner controlled HOA's.


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## sjuhawk_jd

Vtoriaholt said:


> Cash seems to work pretty well to rent hotel rooms.



Many of us here will not stay in Hotel rooms even if they were given to use for free. If you are hotel kind of person, then why did you give your hard earned (assumption) cash to buy a timeshare?


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## Vtoriaholt

Because they lied to us and told us that it would be better.  We were quite happy paying for our rooms.


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## Vtoriaholt

That is a pretty good summary, however, I think my blog is worth a read.


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## loafingcactus

Vtoriaholt said:


> Because they lied to us and told us that it would be better.  We were quite happy paying for our rooms.



It's not possible for someone to lie to you about what you like.  I think the issue here has now come out into the open.


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## Vtoriaholt

We told them that we were discriminant travelers, we paid for what we liked and were happy.  They told us that being owners would be better.  We told them about wanting to go to Westin St. John and to Le Meridian for the Formula 1 race in Monaco.  They said no problem.  We have no problem with paying cash for our travels.  The year prior, we spent $10,000 for 10 days at the Frenchman's Reef Marriott on St. Thomas.


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## DeniseM

Victoria - Nearly everyone in this thread has been in your shoes.  Most of us bought a timeshare from the developer, and we agree that the sales people are unethical.  

But the thing is, when you are going to spend this kind of money, the prudent thing to do is to do your own homework, and make sure you understand the expensive product that you bought.  Your blog and your posts tell me you didn't do that.  Your best defense as a consumer is your own due diligence.  

I have no doubt that the salesman lied to you - we have all been lied to, but once you discovered that, what have you done to educate yourself on the product that you bought?


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## Vtoriaholt

We don't travel that way.  We fly first class, stay at first class hotels and expect first class service.  It was the wrong product for us.  We told the salesman that and he just blatantly lied.  I will not change the way we travel for some timeshare.  We do not stand in lines.


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## ronparise

Vtoriaholt said:


> We don't travel that way.  We fly first class, stay at first class hotels and expect first class service.  It was the wrong product for us.  We told the salesman that and he just blatantly lied.  I will not change the way we travel for some timeshare.  We do not stand in lines.



Well  La di da.  Aren't we special?...

If you came hear for a sympathetic ear you got that, and if you came here to learn how to effectively use your timeshare, you can have that too.  But if you expected some comfort, because misery loves company...I think you are out of luck.....we are not miserable here. We like what we bought and many of us are buying more. When I vacation at a time share, I see people standing in lines, but they arent miserable pretentious snobs...I like that


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## Vtoriaholt

My point is that we TOLD the salesperson that.  He Lied to us.  It was not the right product for us.  And now we are in the nightmare from hell.


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## DavidnRobin

Not intended to offend - but I was just trying to be honest (gently as possible - not my strong suit) - sorry, the blog seems a bit misconstrued (I think that is the right word...).  Most have been where you are and learned from our mistakes which also involves personal responsibility for our actions/decisions.

You might want to limit your loses - make the best of it - etc... Both w/ your TS nightmare and experience here
Of course - most likely I am afraid - we will be the bad guys for being honest... try not to go there...


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## DeniseM

And my point is that you bought a very expensive product, and then didn't learn how to use it.  

Why are you in a nightmare?  You are out of it.

And your friends should be THRILLED!  They got a very nice timeshare for free!  What's not to like?


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## Vtoriaholt

Not out of it.  They are friends.  Our expectation was that he could use it like we did.  He is our dentist!!!  Would not cheat friends like Starwood does.


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## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> Not out of it.  They are friends.  Our expectation was that he could use it like we did.  He is our dentist!!!  Would not cheat friends like Starwood does.



Your friends can still use this timeshare, and trade this timeshare into other prime Starwood resorts.  It's a super deal for them.  Since they got it for free, if they don't like it, they can dump it.  We have a forum for that here, and I'm sure someone who understands the value of a free timeshare would LOVE to have it.

Where exactly did you buy?


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## Passepartout

Vtoriaholt said:


> Not out of it.  They are friends.  Our expectation was that he could use it like we did.  He is our dentist!!!  Would not cheat friends like Starwood does.



Send 'em here. We will show them how to use what they have. Maybe they will invite you along. 

Jim Ricks


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## Vtoriaholt

We bought at Westin Kierland but they told us it did not matter where the resort was, so they signed us up for 2 weeks, 2 bedroom lock-offs at Sheraton Vistana Villages


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## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> We bought at Westin Kierland but they told us it did not matter where the resort was, so they signed us up for 2 weeks, 2 bedroom lock-offs at Sheratn Vistana Villages



Your friends can actually use these two weeks to make 4 trades a year through Interval International Exchange Company.  Starwood owners have first choice of Starwood trades, so they can trade into places like the Starwood Hawaii resorts, and the new Cancun Resort etc.  Since they have kids, I'm sure they will also enjoy the Orlando location while the kids are young.  They should be very pleased to get this free timeshare.


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## C30NY

What phase and what are the MF fee's yearly?  I would consider taking one of these off their hands and paying closing possibly...


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## Vtoriaholt

Tell me how I figure that out.


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## DeniseM

Jase - they have already been given away to someone else.


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## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> Tell me how I figure that out.



Figure what out?


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## Vtoriaholt

They are friends.  We are all on the same page.  I don't know how you figure out what the MF fee is.  I swear, we were not their target audience.


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## C30NY

DeniseM said:


> Jase - they have already been given away to someone else.



Yes, to her friend / dentist ...but she is making it out as if it is now a burden to them and they no longer want them.


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## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> They are friends.  We are all on the same page.  I don't know how you figure out what the MF fee is.  I swear, we were not their target audience.



You pay a yearly maintenance fee around the first of the year for each week.  Starwood sends you a bill.   

But, if this resort is now in your friend's name, you are basically out of the picture.  Send them here and we can help them.


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## DeniseM

Jase369 said:


> Yes, to her friend / dentist ...but she is making it out as if it is now a burden to them and they no longer want them.



However, buying and selling are not permitted in the discussion forums, so you need to take the subject to a private message, please.


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## grgs

Vtoriaholt said:


> I don't know how you figure out what the MF fee is.



You get an annual bill every year.  In your blog, you refer to the $2500 annual membership fee.  That is your maintenance fee.   $2500 for two Vistana Villages 2 bedroom lock-off units sounds a bit low, but is in the ballpark.



Vtoriaholt said:


> I swear, we were not their target audience.



It doesn't seem like timeshares are a good fit with your lifestyle.  From Starwood's perspective, though, if you're willing to buy, you're definitely in their target audience.


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## C30NY

DeniseM said:


> However, buying and selling are not permitted in the discussion forums, so you need to take the subject to a private message, please.



Heh - Sorry my intention was not to circumvent the process


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## C30NY

grgs said:


> You get an annual bill every year.  In your blog, you refer to the $2500 annual membership fee.  That is your maintenance fee.   $2500 for two Vistana Villages 2 bedroom lock-off units sounds a bit low, but is in the ballpark.



Posted in the 2011 MF section...but not sure if it varies from Phase to Phase

_Sheraton Vistana Villages - Key West

Annual 2 BdRm lock-off.

Operating Assessment - $934.42
Replacement Reserve - 212.93
Estimated Real Estate Tax - 127.85
SVN Fee - 33.00 (additional week)
ARDA Contribution - 5.00

TOTAL - $1,280.20
_


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## DeniseM

Jase369 said:


> Heh - Sorry my intention was not to circumvent the process



I know - no worries!


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## timeos2

Jase369 said:


> Posted in the 2011 MF section...but not sure if it varies from Phase to Phase
> 
> _Sheraton Vistana Villages - Key West
> 
> Annual 2 BdRm lock-off.
> 
> Operating Assessment - $934.42
> Replacement Reserve - 212.93
> Estimated Real Estate Tax - 127.85
> SVN Fee - 33.00 (additional week)
> ARDA Contribution - 5.00
> 
> TOTAL - $1,280.20
> _



ARDA $5?  They only ask for $3 - is Starwood taking a $2 cut on that too?


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## LisaRex

They didn't buy in Key West or Bella, because those are mandatory sections of SVV.  They must have bought in Amelia or something.

What season did you buy?  Is it platinum?  With the Starwood priority in II, they should be able to pull decent trades in Hawaii, Arizona (including WKV) and California.  

If you gave these units to your friends for nothing, then they should be able to get rid of them here on Tug or on ebay for what they paid for them.  If the choose the former, it'll be cheaper.


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## DeniseM

timeos2 said:


> ARDA $5?  They only ask for $3 - is Starwood taking a $2 cut on that too?



ARDA has always been $5 as far as I know.


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## rickandcindy23

DeniseM said:


> ARDA has always been $5 as far as I know.



Starwood owners don't have to pay it, either.  I never pay it.


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## AwayWeGo

*Every Little Bit Helps.*




DeniseM said:


> ARDA has always been $5 as far as I know.


Maybe the extra $2 is to help pay for "free" wi-fi.

_Full Disclosure*:*_  I declined to pay the "optional" $3 ARDA-ROC donation which showed up on the 2012 timeshare maintenance fee bill that I received last week -- just subtracted $3 from the bottom-line amount & paid the rest in full (minus that "optional" $3).  Shux upon me, eh ?   

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## LisaRex

Vtoriaholt said:


> My point is that we TOLD the salesperson that.  He Lied to us.  It was not the right product for us.  And now we are in the nightmare from hell.



You made a bad investment choice. You bought a timeshare on an impulse.  You were able to either give it away or find other buyers.  I'm still waiting to hear about the nightmare part of it. 

In the 5 years of ownership, aside from Christmas week in St. John, did you ever exchange back to Westin Kierland? Did you ever use your week at all?


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## rickandcindy23

I wasn't aware they sold Amelia that long ago.  Was it really that long ago that we talked about Amelia being voluntary and not mandatory and to be careful what you buy resale.  

She says it's five years ago.  Maybe it is a mandatory resort, but it's the Starpoints she is upset at losing.  Just guessing. 

Salespeople lie.  They are scoundrels, and we don't know it as newbies, and I feel badly for anyone who gets sucked in.  But we also got sucked in 30 years ago.  I couldn't give away the week we bought, if I needed to.  It's a sad truth: timeshares are overpriced form developers, and salespeople lie to get you to buy.  

So sorry for your troubles.  We just exchanged into the Westin on Maui with a Starwood week that isn't Staroptions and doesn't have Starpoints.  We used our 1 bed at Sheraton Broadway Plantation, and we got a 2 bedroom at the Westin, island view.  It was very nice.  Timeshares work, but not the way you were told.


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## woodyd70

I'm just having a tough time fitting the round peg into the sqare hole here....

Purchase Price $50k +, Maint Fees $2500+........the kind of people spending that kinda money nowadays are the ones [they're] after for some tax revenue.  The smart millionaires, ya know......

I seldom see broke people buying that much timesare, cuz they can't afford it.......it would seem a little more realistic to see a pretty sharp family looking to vacation in a specific manner answered by the Starwood Brands.  For some reason it seems this product was purchased for hotel usage, with the Rare exception that contacting Matt Averill landed the WSJ Christmas trip.  [Please make that offer privately - DeniseM ]


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## chuckille

The OP sounds more and more fishy as I read down the thread. Not sure what their MO is. They made their point. Most people here in TUG don't agree with the OP's opinion. Enough said.

Something just doesn't add up.


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## rickandcindy23

> Most people here in TUG don't agree with the OP's opinion.



You definitely don't speak for me. Timeshare owners who don't feel they got what the salesperson promised?  That's fishy? That's the truth of what she blogs.  I see nothing fishy at all.  What makes the Starwood owners not understand her complaints?  Salespeople lie to sell.  It's wrong, too.  We all know salespeople lie. But why do we have to accept it, and why do we shoot the messenger, even if it is a message we have read before.   

It's really ridiculous to question this poor woman, a victim of a timeshare presentation, where the salesperson lied to her, promised her things that were impossible, and she says it didn't work the way she was promised. 

That's very common and I do not find it difficult to understand her frustration.  She acquiesced for a few years, played by the rules, and now she gave the weeks away (sold, perhaps).  Now she discovers that her friend doesn't even get the benefits she had, which were less than what she thought they were, because the salesman lied.


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## Passepartout

woodyd70 said:


> I seldom see broke people buying that much timesare, cuz they can't afford it.......it would seem a little more realistic to see a pretty sharp family looking to vacation in a specific manner answered by the Starwood Brands.



These people simply got sucked in by the lies of a very smart salesweasel. They bought into the lies, thinking they would be able to vacation in abject luxury for less than the cost of owning a second home in a resort community. Then when it turned out that there is a learning curve to get benefit from the purchase, they stuffed it in a drawer. 

We've all done it, just not with $50k purchases with $200/mo MFs.

We wish them well. Had they found us within a few days of the purchase- or preferably before, we could have saved them a bundle. Their loss. Starwood's gain.

Now it appears they have passed the ownership to a friend. If they will recommend that the friend either drop in here, or at least read the handbook, the friend will find they DO have a great product, just that it's likely not appropriate for the original buyer.

Jim Ricks


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## VacationForever

Vtoriaholt said:


> We don't travel that way.  We fly first class, stay at first class hotels and expect first class service.  It was the wrong product for us.  We told the salesman that and he just blatantly lied.  I will not change the way we travel for some timeshare.  We do not stand in lines.



Obviously you did not get that message across to the salesperson clearly otherwise he would have sold you St John, Maui, Kauai, Harborside properties.  He must have thought you are poor like those of us who own swamp land in Florida.


----------



## oneohana

If I were the OP I'd be a little worried that I gave a "friend" 2 timeshares that can be had on ebay for a $1 each.

If they were on the same page, why give them your nightmare?

Now their "friend" is stuck with the mfs.


----------



## timeos2

rickandcindy23 said:


> Starwood owners don't have to pay it, either.  I never pay it.



No one has to pay it but you wouldn't know that to see the bills that get sent out.  For the 5 of our former 8 total ownerships that "requested" it the amount was always $3.  Just checked with our remaining 2 for 2012 billing - it is still $3. I guess *wood has been upping the take for a long time! Wonder why and who gets the extra $2?


----------



## J&JFamily

Vtoriaholt said:


> It really is swamp land in Florida.  Vistana Ranch or something like that.  We have never been there.  We actually love Westin Kierland.



I too paid way too much when I bought my timeshare directly from Starwood and understand your frustration.  That said, it is a little bit difficult to feel terribly sorry for someone who doesn't even know the name of what they bought, especially given that what you bought cost you $58,000.  That is a lot of money to spend on something that you don't even know the name of...

On the bright side, if you direct your friends to TUG I am sure they can learn enough about what they own to make very good use of it.  If not, have them list here on TUG and I'm sure someone would be happy to take it off of their hands.


----------



## work2travel

Vtoriaholt said:


> They are friends.  We are all on the same page.  I don't know how you figure out what the MF fee is.  I swear, we were not their target audience.



I have used my vistana weeks to exchange into Harborside, Westin St. John and Maui resorts via SVN or II exchanges.  It only takes a small investment of an owner's time to learn how to make the most of a timeshare purchase.  It sounds as you may have not have not had time to do that since you are not aware of the timeshare phase and maintenance fees even after 5 years of owning these units.  Hopefully your friends will maximize use of your  "gift" to them.


----------



## ronparise

oneohana said:


> If I were the OP I'd be a little worried that I gave a "friend" 2 timeshares that can be had on ebay for a $1 each.
> 
> If they were on the same page, why give them your nightmare?
> 
> Now their "friend" is stuck with the mfs.



my feeling exactly...

Shame on her for doing the same thing to a friend. If it was the salesmans job to consider the ops needs and match the product being presented to those needs,(and speaking as a salesman...it is) it was the ops job to do the same thing when she gave it away

sure the salesman lied when the op bought this stuff and didnt consider the ops needs, but the op didnt do her due diligence either. She didnt know what she was buying and she didnt  know anything when she sold it. (still doesen't)

She stuck this guy pure and simple...Id find a new dentist


----------



## ekinggill

I hope your friends are still your friends.  

Like every major transaction, you should read every page of the contract you are signing and not rely on the spoken words of the person who only makes money if you sign the contract.  If you don't understand it, you should hire a professional who is independent of the transaction to help you.


----------



## pointsjunkie

i am on the other end of the spectrum, everything our salesperson said came true.  it is still the best thing we have ever done for our family (concerning vacations). still enjoying everyone of my timeshares and would do it all over again.:whoopie:


----------



## tschwa2

pointsjunkie said:


> i am on the other end of the spectrum, everything our salesperson said came true.  it is still the best thing we have ever done for our family (concerning vacations). still enjoying everyone of my timeshares and would do it all over again.:whoopie:



You got lucky and found a salesperson who wanted to make the sale but took the time to listen to you and work with you wants/needs.  I think if the OP had had such a salesperson she would have been a lot happier and might still be happy owners today.


----------



## fishingguy

*How about some "How Manys"?*


How many times have we heard about a new owner leaving a retail sales pitch,  walking out the door with the wrong perceptions and expectations of timesharing?
How many times do sales people never really touch upon only being able to exchange when availability is there, with a package large enough to do it in the first place, and without really intending to meet the vacation needs of the victim?
How many new owners never learn to use what they have purchased retail; and don't put the effort in to plan, time and execute exchanges?
How many retail owners find out that they were lied to, fell victims to the "allure of the moment", and really didn't know what they were getting into?
How many new owners think that exchanging is like booking a hotel?
How many new owners end up frustrated and disillusioned, because they didn't read what they signed, validate what they were offered, and/or bought spur-of-the-moment?

...no wonder the OP feels like they've been victimized and sold a white elephant.  Buyers remorse can _'fester'_ for a long, long time.


----------



## siesta

This thread is the nightmare that wont end  

I think we beat it to death, salesman wasnt totally truthful (go figure), OP feels ripped off, no longer has the ownership, we're done here.....

If you want to get back into timesharing, drop us a line, as you can tell we'd love to help. But the fact of the matter is, the money is gone, and so is your ownership... Enjoy the hotels and their rates! Cheers.

P.S.- if they are truly your friends, not just some pawns you dumped your "nightmare" on, send them here. Unless hes like my dentist, then he makes too much money to care, the guys got almost a dozen clinics!


----------



## DeniseM

oneohana said:


> If I were the OP I'd be a little worried that I gave a "friend" 2 timeshares that can be had on ebay for a $1 each.



I respectfully disagree - unless they accepted it with the hope of flipping it for a profit, why should they care what it's going for on ebay?  I myself was the recipient of a free Starwood timeshare in Florida, and I've been very happy with it.

•They got it for FREE.

•It's a very nice resort near Disney.

•It has the Starwood to Starwood priority in II and can be traded for other Starwood resorts.  If it's a lock-off - they can get 4 trades a year!

•In fact, it has MORE value as a II trader, because the Florida resorts don't get many Staroptions.  The Max. the 2 bdm.'s get is 95,700 Staroptions - not enought for a 2 bdm. at many resorts.  But with II - they can trade each week for a 2 bdm. anywhere.

IMNSHO, this isn't a tragedy - it's simply a matter of someone not understanding what they bought, or how to use it, and not taking the time to find out.


----------



## l2trade

DeniseM said:


> I respectfully disagree - unless they accepted it with the hope of flipping it for a profit, why should they care what it's going for on ebay?  I myself was the recipient of a free Starwood timeshare in Florida, and I've been very happy with it.
> 
> •They got it for FREE.
> 
> •It's a very nice resort near Disney.
> 
> •It has the Starwood to Starwood priority in II and can be traded for other Starwood resorts.  If it's a lock-off - they can get 4 trades a year!
> 
> •In fact, it has MORE value as a II trader, because the Florida resorts don't get many Staroptions.  The Max. the 2 bdm.'s get is 95,700 Staroptions - not enought for a 2 bdm. at many resorts.  But with II - they can trade each week for a 2 bdm. anywhere.
> 
> IMNSHO, this isn't a tragedy - it's simply a matter of someone not understanding what they bought, or how to use it, and not taking the time to find out.



Well said, I totally agree!  We love timesharing.  I understand it is not for everyone and I can empathize with people who don't understand what they bought. However, it is frustrating to me the constant uninformed bashing of timesharing in general by people who 'don't understand what they bought, or how to use it, and not take the time to find out.'  Folks volunteer time here on TUG to help out other fellow owners to learn how to use their timeshare.  IMHO, what the OP gave to her dentist for free has great value and i hope the dentist takes time to learn how to use it and enjoy all the wonderful vacations opportunities out there on II!


----------



## ocdb8r

siesta said:


> I think we beat it to death, salesman wasnt totally truthful (go figure), OP feels ripped off, no longer has the ownership, we're done here.....



Siesta, I agree that this is the bottom line, however, I think the blog post referenced by the OP is very valuable here on Tug.  I think many of us forget that we are likely in the minority of SVO owner and there are a plethora of owners out there having a variety of experiences with SVN.  I think sometimes some of us here forget the amount of knowledge we've gained from Tug and how much effort we go through to "work" the SVO/SVN/II system in order to make our timeshares perform in some way similar to how the salespeople describe.  For many who don't get to Tug ever...or in time (as in the case of the OP), timesharing can be an incredibly frustrating experience.

That said, I think there are also stories on the flip-side as well.  There are probably a good deal of owners out there who do little more than reserve a week and the resort they own year after year, accept the maintenance fees, and lead a blissful timesharing life.

Both of these sorts of situations provide some much useful context and perspective here on Tug.


----------



## LisaRex

ocdb8r said:


> I think many of us forget that we are likely in the minority of SVO owner and there are a plethora of owners out there having a variety of experiences with SVN.  I think sometimes some of us here forget the amount of knowledge we've gained from Tug and how much effort we go through to "work" the SVO/SVN/II system in order to make our timeshares perform in some way similar to how the salespeople describe.



Heck, I know a few people who own timeshares who pay their MF year after year...and then don't use it. Very puzzling.


----------



## YYJMSP

woodyd70 said:


> I'm just having a tough time fitting the round peg into the sqare hole here....
> 
> Purchase Price $50k +, Maint Fees $2500+........the kind of people spending that kinda money nowadays are the ones [they're] after for some tax revenue.  The smart millionaires, ya know......
> 
> I seldom see broke people buying that much timesare, cuz they can't afford it.......it would seem a little more realistic to see a pretty sharp family looking to vacation in a specific manner answered by the Starwood Brands.  For some reason it seems this product was purchased for hotel usage, with the Rare exception that contacting Matt Averill landed the WSJ Christmas trip.  [Please make that offer privately - DeniseM ]



Problem is that the sales people market this, with their in-house financing, as being only a few $100's per month (I think $20K is like $250/mo or something like that), making it sound more affordable to those buying on impulse, and who may not actually be able to afford the real cost of the unit over it's life (or taking in to account the obscene interest charges).

I don't think there are that many people who completely understand the real/full cost of their first timeshare purchase.  I think that they definitely learn on subsequent purchases, and go in very well prepared.


----------



## YYJMSP

LisaRex said:


> Heck, I know a few people who own timeshares who pay their MF year after year...and then don't use it. Very puzzling.



I know a couple who bought one, tried to book the week they wanted (couldn't), realized how this really works (vs. what the salesperson said), and they went out and bought a condo outright "down the street".

I'm pretty sure that they still own the timeshare, but don't use it...


----------



## grgs

ocdb8r said:


> That said, I think there are also stories on the flip-side as well.  There are probably a good deal of owners out there who do little more than reserve a week and the resort they own year after year, accept the maintenance fees, and lead a blissful timesharing life.



Based on my pool side conversations at WMH in August (yes, it's hot, but we like it!), I think the above scenario is quite common.  For the most part, these owners seem quite satisfied with their purchases (typically, direct from Starwood).  I know they could have spent much less to get the same result, but it does take quite a bit of effort, and I don't think many people have the time or inclination for this.  

Glorian


----------



## Tfleming675

So let me understand. You felt you had been scammed and that you purchased "swamp land" in Florida. I have been to this property and it is very very nice. 

You also felt tricked into the maintenance fees. How could you not do your own home work before spending this money?

And, to top it off, after all of this you where happy to dump this on your friends. This makes you no better than the first sales person. Did you educate your friends first at least!!!!

wow!

I own in Coloado, I did my homework on here on TUG and I am a very happy SVO owner and will purchase more units.


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## Vtoriaholt

You might want to learn the whole story before you mouth off.  You evidently didn't read my entire post on Opensalon.com or you would have a better understanding of the nightmare.


----------



## sail27bill

When I was first interested in buying at Starwood, I told the salesperson that I was interested in St. John or Harborside.  I was told to save my money and buy for half the price at SVV and trade in.  That trading in would be no problem. So I took their advice and bought a SVV 2bedroom unit. Well I tried calling for Harborside exactly at 8 months in advance for the summer season 7 years ago for 2 Months straight with no luck.  I was very upset to say the least.  I booked Harborside directly and went on my vacation.  I then bought at Harborside which was where I should have bought in the first place.  Luckily a month later I discovered Tug.  I became a longtime lurker before finally becoming a member last year.  I have to say I can understand the OP's plight.  The salesperson made it sound easy.  Furthermore, I lucked out and both of my units happen to be mandatory, unlike theirs.  Yes they should have researched the product better (me too), but the presentation can be so convincing.  Luckily I have been able to get the trades I want and the places I have wanted to go to.  I still stay at hotels as well when it suits my needs.  However, I have friends and family who also bought at Starwood and now are shocked at what the units are really worth.  No salesperson tells you that it will depreciate exponentially, only that it is an investment.  It is a shock to say the least.  

To the OP...tell your friends not to despair--I have gotten great trades through Interval using my SVV week.  Once they figure out how the whole process works, and start educating themselves, they will be fine.  Believe me, I speak from experience.

Anita


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## Vtoriaholt

Thank you.  I hope it turns out well.


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## Vtoriaholt

This is a story that everyone should read before they buy a timeshare.  They will tell you anything to get you to sign on the dotted line.  Be afraid.. Be very, very afraid!!!


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## DeniseM

Victoria - All of us own timeshares already.  We do understand what you've been through, but you are preaching to the choir.  We have been warning people about the sales presentations for years!

Did you send your friends to TUG yet?


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## Vtoriaholt

Nope.  Gonna fight Starwood, the resort owners, and the attorneys involved first.  Gonna take no prisoners.


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## MommaBear

It sounds like you want to throw more money away. I hope your lawyer is realistic with you about your chances of recouping any money. Salespeople generally say whatever they can to close the deal, it is the paperwork that tells the legal tale. I bought my first Starwood property from the developer and spent way too much, but I had also read all the fine print, highlighted it and went over it again with the salesperson before I signed, so I knew what I was getting into. I like the product so much that I have purchased several more Starwood properties, but this time on the resale market. I figured that amortizing the purchase price across all properties makes each one a reasonable price.

Timesharing is not for everyone and you were smart to realize it was not for you. Keep the money you would spend on a lawyer (unless they are taking your case on a contingency basis) and enjoy your style of vacation.


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## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> Nope.  Gonna fight Starwood, the resort owners, and the attorneys involved first.  Gonna take no prisoners.



You have zero chance - don't throw good money after bad.

Any court of law will tell you that Starwood is only responsible for the promises made in writing, and frankly, you did not protect your own interest by reading what you signed, and the binder you were given.  Five years later is WAY too late, and you have no way to prove what was said verbally.

Do you know who the resort owners are?  The resort is owned by the timeshare owners themselves - the little guy - not the developer and not the management company.  Timeshares are owned jointly by the timeshare owners, under the auspices of the board of directors - other timeshare owners.  I don't think they've done anything to you.


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## Vtoriaholt

i am not gonna spend money.  Will call John Quinones at ABC to report the scam.  
No job here so I have plenty of time to make them miserable.


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## timeos2

What Denise said. No attorney will take the "case" (of which you have none unfortunately) on a contingency basis (they know when it's a reasonable chance of collecting or not) and anything you pay them will be more money lost. 

Chalk tis one up to a bad experience/ decision and move on. Anything you spend now will be more money lost. Best advice - move on and forget it.


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## Vtoriaholt

No need for an attorney, I can take care of it by myself.


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## Passepartout

Vtoriaholt, no disrespect intended, but you are simply spitting into the wind. 

One of the reasons TUG was founded was to band owners together to promote resales and tell buyers that developers lie. We have been telling people to rescind when they come here within the legally allowable rescission period and told and shown them how to do it. To the extent of producing sample letters buyers can simply plug their names and account numbers and mail.

We routinely tell people at the resorts where we vacation that if they recently purchased, to read the documents and rescind if every little detail is not as they feel it was promised by the salesweasel.

I am deeply saddened and sorry that you took five years to find us. We've been here helping others and ourselves to vacation well for less.

Feel free to alert the press! We have been doing that on Clark Howard and other financial shows whenever the opportunity presents itself. You seem to have pretty deep pockets. Care to finance an 'anti timeshare developer' campaign? There are thousands of testimonials right here just waiting to be heard.

Keep up the good work, and while you're at it, send your dentist friend here for a few tutorials. He'll thank you for it.

Jim Ricks


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## Vtoriaholt

You are awesome!!  I will do all I can to stop the scam!!


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## Bubbasgonefishin

While I don't agree with the rising cost of MF's I did buy my timeshare with my eyes open.  
I also realize when a place, whether it is a resort, timeshare or a hotel, doesn't have vacancy...it doesn't have vacancy!  Ain't no amount of whining gonna make them let you in.   With that being said..  I haven't had a problem changing my week at WSJ.  I own in Sept and last year I called several times until they had an opening in July.  this year I called a few weeks ago and there were several openings  in June and July.  I did bank my year last year with II but haven't had the time or money to take another trip.  Hopefully next year we can take 2 vacations.

Bottom Line...if you want to ride in a Lexus...BUY a Lexus!  lol


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## Vtoriaholt

Thanks.  We thought we bought a lexus from what was represented.  What we got was a Prius.  Bad trade when we can afford a Porsche.  They lied.  Fair and square.  Life happens.  But we are gonna do our best to make sure that for future customers, that they are not cheated.


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## DeniseM

But in the meantime, your friends could be learning how to enjoy their new timeshare.  The 2012 maintenance fee will be due the first of the year, and I'll  bet that the 2011 weeks haven't been used yet.  Why let them go to waste?

BTW - if you have transferred this timeshare to your friends, and they don't pay the 2012 maintenance fee, they - not you - will be turned over to collections.  You should do the a favor and tell them about TUG, so that we can help them use their 2011 and 2012 useage - both can be reserved, or exchange right now.  Time is a wasting!


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## klpca

I think you actually bought a Lexus. You thought it was a black one, but turns out it was a silver hybrid. Takes some getting used to. Definitely not what you expected.


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## Vtoriaholt

If I wanted a silver hybrid, I would have bought one.  If I had known the truth, I could have bought what I wanted or walked.  I did not have that option.


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## Margariet

Victoria, I'm sorry but English/American is not my native language so I might not understand everything but couldn't you work this out with the company? I mean settle your dispute? We once had a little 'misunderstanding' but we got it settled with the company. There is a lot you can do before you start naming and shaming. Why didn't you try to settle or fix it that way? If you really think you were treated bad and were mislead - you could discuss this with the company instead of giving your TS to your dentist-friend. IMHO by giving it away you gave your position in the game away. There is nothing to win anymore and it is of no use to talk about it anymore. If your friend is not happy with your gift he may discuss this topic or talk to the company since he is the owner now. Sorry, but it's not your TS anymore, so let it go.


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## Vtoriaholt

Sorry, not going to let it go.  I am not going to cheat friends of mine as we have been cheated by Starwood Vacation Ownership.  I will keep beating this dead horse!


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## scootr5

To say you did not have the option to walk away is ridiculous though, unless you were held hostage in a locked room - that is a whole 'nother lawsuit there. No one forces a purchaser to sign the contract. They can leave, do their research, and make an informed decision. I'm sorry you were not happy with what you bought. 

You are still upset 5 years later. You've stated you don't need an attorney, you're handling it yourself. You don't need any help learning how to use the system, because you've "dumped" it to your friends. We've all already agreed that most Starwood sales people lie; the only thing that matters is what is actually _written_ in the contract you are signing.

I'm not sure what else you are really looking to get from us here.


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## Vtoriaholt

I'm just trying to make sure that people know what they are dealing with.  Liars, cheaters and scum.  Starwood makes Bernie Madoff look like a piker!!


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## LisaRex

Vtoriaholt said:


> If I wanted a silver hybrid, I would have bought one.  If I had known the truth, I could have bought what I wanted or walked.  I did not have that option.



Actually, you did have that option.  Your contract had a recission aka "cooling off" period, so that you could review the written contract and better understand what your bought.  Better yet, you can have taken it to an attorney of your choosing and have him review it.  You chose not to do that. To further your own analogy, instead of parking the silver hybrid in the dealer's parking lot and suing him for misrepresentation, you chose to drive it for 5 years.  Surely you can see how this damages your credibility and mitigates any damages that you believe you're entitled to. 

Good luck to you in moving beyond this.


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## Margariet

scootr5 said:


> To say you did not have the option to walk away is ridiculous though, unless you were held hostage in a locked room - that is a whole 'nother lawsuit there. No one forces a purchaser to sign the contract. They can leave, do their research, and make an informed decision. I'm sorry you were not happy with what you bought.
> 
> You are still upset 5 years later. You've stated you don't need an attorney, you're handling it yourself. You don't need any help learning how to use the system, because you've "dumped" it to your friends. We've all already agreed that most Starwood sales people lie; the only thing that matters is what is actually _written_ in the contract you are signing.
> 
> I'm not sure what else you are really looking to get from us here.



I'm not sure either. From what I've read your friends have a good TS now which they can trade into II. Lots of people on this board do that and are happy with it. If your friend is not happy or needs advice he may post on this board or talk to the company.


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## Vtoriaholt

Ma'am, you obviously did not read my blog.  We did not get what we bargained for.  THEN, our friends did not get what THEY bargained for.  I just want all people to be afraid of Starwood.  Be very, very AFRAID.


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## scootr5

Vtoriaholt said:


> Ma'am, you obviously did not read my blog.  We did not get what we bargained for.  THEN, our friends did not get what THEY bargained for.  I just want all people to be afraid of Starwood.  Be very, very AFRAID.




I read your blog. I'm not sure how you can say you did not get what you bargained for, since you had no idea _what_ you were bargaining for:

"We decided to purchase two properties so that we would enjoy “Premium Status.” (Whatever that is.. Sounded good.) "​
And then to say:

"We found friends that were interested.  We explained that we had used the program, however, no longer wished to participate in the program.  "​
Did you expect them to use it in a way you had been unable to, without taking time to learn how the system works?


----------



## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> I'm just trying to make sure that people know what they are dealing with.  Liars, cheaters and scum.  Starwood makes Bernie Madoff look like a piker!!



Victoria - We are all very familiar with Starwood.  Many of us also bought from the developer the first time (ME!)  Most of us like the product very much, although we often don't agree with the way Starwood does business.  I am the last person that would defend Starwood - believe me!

However, you are not being realistic about this - especially since you no longer own this timeshare.  Unless you and your friends agree to deed the timeshare back to you, you are out of the picture.

We can help your friends enjoy this timeshare, but you are actually impeding that.  When the maintenance fee bill arrives in a coupld of months, are you going to pay it for them?


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## Vtoriaholt

Read my blog.  We used it for 5 years,  We knew the system.  Never did Interval International.  Only used it to go to Westin Kierland or convert to star points to travel to other Starwood properties.


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## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> Read my blog.  We used it for 5 years,  We knew the system.  Never did Interval International.  Only used it to go to Westin Kierland or convert to star points to travel to other Starwood properties.



Victoria - I read your blog, and the comments there and here clearly say that you did not know how to use the system, or really understand what you owned and how to maximize your ownership.  You could have use this week to visit some fabulous Starwood resorts in Hawaii, Harborside Atlantis, etc.  But you didn't know how...


----------



## Margariet

Vtoriaholt said:


> Ma'am, you obviously did not read my blog.  We did not get what we bargained for.  THEN, our friends did not get what THEY bargained for.  I just want all people to be afraid of Starwood.  Be very, very AFRAID.



Ma'am, I've read your blog but now your friends own the TS and they can use it or exchange it for other properties around the world via the II system. That's the principle of TS and that's what many of us do with it.

It's no good to keep on talking about things that happened five years ago. Many of us have been through harder ordeals with sickness, death, job losses, family problems, divorces, bankrupcies etc. Me and my husband have lost lots of money - much more than your TS - to fraude so I know what I'm talking about. But after a few years I pulled myself together and got on with my life.

If you really want to fight the way in which TS is sold and the practices and misleading of the sales men you can easily do that via blogs, via publishing of articles and via discussing this issues with the big TS companies and travel industry.


----------



## komosatp

Victoria: do you think the actual  documents you signed were misleading and/or SVO is not living up to the agreements made in those documents?  At what point did you read those documents....at the closing table, during the rescission period, or only after your first disappointment?

I guess what I'm saying is where do you think your personally responsibility is in this situation?  You had to have signed lots of documents to make your purchase.  Do you think you had no obligation whatsoever to review what those documents said and could rely solely on the word of the salesperson?

Separate comment: I actually think that the salespeople rarely say things that are unconditionally untrue.  But they very certainly omit important details when trying to make a sale.  Like  "Can I stay at Christmas"?  Real world answer: no.  Honest answer: technically, yes, but practically, no....there's only room if enough owners don't use their week...and that's never happened....but it could.  Or you could convert to SPG points and book.  So salesperson is speaking technical truth....but doesn't discuss all the iterations required to get to that outcome.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*You Typed A Mouthful.*




Margariet said:


> It's no good to keep on talking about things that happened five years ago.


There is no way to improve the past. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## Vtoriaholt

But I will certainly try!!


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## LisaRex

Vtoriaholt said:


> Ma'am, you obviously did not read my blog.  We did not get what we bargained for.  THEN, our friends did not get what THEY bargained for.



That is because their saleman (you) misrepresented the product.


----------



## Vtoriaholt

AND I will try to improve the future by warning other people about scams!


----------



## Margariet

Vtoriaholt said:


> AND I will try to improve the future by warning other people about scams!



In legal terms it's not a scam although it might have been misleading. But I still don't get it - like I wrote before in this thread, if you feel so bad about this why didn't you settle this with the company 5 years ago??


----------



## work2travel

DeniseM said:


> Victoria - I read your blog, and the comments there and here clearly say that you did not know how to use the system, or really understand what you owned and how to maximize your ownership.  You could have use this week to visit some fabulous Starwood resorts in Hawaii, Harborside Atlantis, etc.  But you didn't know how...



Maybe it is time to end this thread???


----------



## Vtoriaholt

No thank you Denise.


----------



## DeniseM

Victoria - I know you have good intentions, but what do you hope to accomplish on TUG?  You are more than welcome to post on TUG, but you are preaching to the choir here.  We already know the pros and cons of timeshares and Starwood.  Almost all of us have been to multiple sales presentations - we get it!

A better venue for your message would be the various "scam" websites on the internet.

Please send your friends here, so we can salvage their experience - at least don't deny them that.  Right now, you have put them in limbo.

Good luck!


----------



## Margariet

work2travel said:


> Maybe it is time to end this thread???



 And do some traveling? Or surfing the web?  I think you're right. When all is said and done ...


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Are you going to delete my thread?  I can not believe that.  However, I can believe just about anything from Starwood now.  Does Starwood pay you?  It seems that people are interested in this thread.


----------



## Vtoriaholt

DeniseM shut me off so I can not post.  Do you think that Starwood pays her?


----------



## DeniseM

Victoria - you just posted....  twice!  

I know you are new here - but I am a huge critic of Starwood and the idea that I could work for them is laughable.

I am also a realist - and your plan is completely unworkable, and you are taking your friends down with you.  I feel bad about that.


----------



## Margariet

Vtoriaholt said:


> Are you going to delete my thread?  I can not believe that.  However, I can believe just about anything from Starwood now.  Does Starwood pay you?  It seems that people are interested in this thread.



We are at the point that we don't get further with this issue. We all have asked you a lot of questions which you don't answer and than it becomes like an old record. Playing the same song over and over. It's a big question mark for me that you didn't settle this issue with your TS company 5 years ago. Or at least talked about it then. 1. Legally it's not a scam and 2. your sale happened too long ago to question it and 3. you don't own the TS anymore.  :zzz:


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Then don't follow the thread.  Simple.


----------



## Margariet

Vtoriaholt said:


> Then don't follow the thread.  Simple.



Ma'am, read all the postings of the TUG members! You simply don't answer the members and don't follow their advices. :zzz: Adios!


----------



## C30NY

I would like to hear from her friends!


----------



## timeos2

It has become a real question as to what the OP hopes to accomplish now & how. I am all for exposing the often sleazy to downright corrupt sales tactics in far too many timeshare presentations. And there are those far worse than Starwood - Wastegate comes to mind with Wyndham not too far behind - that would be far easier to nail as they already have a history of court convictions. 

Get the word out Victoria - and if you're willing to pay to do it more power to you & good luck!


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Thank you John!!  I just can not stand by and let businesses scam us!!


----------



## Vtoriaholt

For all posters, please read my blog before you post.  It is hard for you to participate if you have not read the blog.  Thank you.
http://open.salon.com/blog/victoria_...will_not_end_1


----------



## Passepartout

Vtoriaholt said:


> I just can not stand by and let businesses scam us!!



Curious minds want to know what you have in mind to do? Ranting on here where honestly, we all are on your side, does no good. As Denise said, you are preaching to the choir. We've heard it all before.

The time for you to have gone into 'break the scammers' mode was within the 5-or 7-day rescission period you had to read, study and get-out of the purchase you voluntarily made.

You chose not to do that, so the next thing you could have done to mitigate the damage, would have been to learn the system you bought into and use it. That could be from reading the manual, or asking others while you were at Weston Kierland where you used your membership. Or you might have searched the internet and found us or the folks over at Timeshare Forums.

So now, since you apparently have divested yourselves of your timeshare, the best way to 'get back' at the buggers that 'scammed' you would be to send our url www.tug2.net to the presumably nice folks you turned it over to. We will happily- maybe even giddily show them the ins-and outs of getting wonderful vacations in the Caribbean, Hawaii, at great ski resorts, and other places they would just be tickled pink to go.  Maybe they will even invite you to come along.

If you are through replaying the tape loop of how badly you were wronged, we can all go get a nice deep breath and help some folks who ask for timely advice. Since you started this thread, I've personally replied to several who asked how to rescind a developer sale.

It's nice when they ask in time.

Jim


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Take a nice deep breath.  Now, let me warn people of what Starwood is doing to people.  Have a great day!!


----------



## gnorth16

You are not the first and will not be the last who get hooked by TS salespeople.  As with any legal contract, you *and your friends *need to read the contract and ask questions *before* signing.  Did you sign the deed to your house without reading the title?  Did you sell or buy it without reading the realtor contract? Purchase that Porche with the extended warranty?  It is no different.

*You have no way to prove what you paid for unless it is written in the contract.  If presented in a court of law, this is all the judge needs to dismiss the entire case.*

You have my sympathy regarding your ordeal, however IMO, any further time and effort regarding this is futile and will only upset you more.  It must be hard, but take it as a lesson learned and move on.

NEVER SIGN ANYTHING UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SIGNING!!!


----------



## Vtoriaholt

IT would be great to just take it as a lesson learned and move on, but we are still on the hook for $2500 a year to remind us how stupid we were.


----------



## loafingcactus

Vtoriaholt said:


> IT would be great to just take it as a lesson learned and move on, but we are still on the hook for $2500 a year to remind us how stupid we were.



I follow the thread for the popcorn.  I read the blog and I disagree with you. I think an adult should take personal responsibility for her actions. But also I wonder if the whole point isn't the popcorn?  I mean, according to the story you don't spend that money (and earlier in the thread there is an issue with the amount), your dentist does.  The facts seem to be... unclear.


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Can you rephrase that in english?


----------



## grgs

Vtoriaholt said:


> IT would be great to just take it as a lesson learned and move on, but we are still on the hook for $2500 a year to remind us how stupid we were.



If you gave the units to friends, how are you still on the hook for $2500 (which I assume refers to the maintenance fees)?  Did you or did you not transfer ownership to them?  If you did, they will be responsible for the fees.


----------



## klpca

The most literal thread title ever.


----------



## Vtoriaholt

I will take it back because I do not want them to get something less than we promised them.  It is called good business.  We do not cheat people.


----------



## aliikai2

*Jethro Tull thick as a brick is  a great song*

You have received some valuable information and in your blindness to extract retribution you are dooming your friends to failure and substantial loss.

You may wish to at least tell them to come here and learn about their ownership.

fwiw,

Greg   




Vtoriaholt said:


> Thank you John!!  I just can not stand by and let businesses scam us!!


----------



## Vtoriaholt

As from my original post, if you bothered to read it.... We do not travel that way.  Money works really well to get the reservations you want around the world.  Pure and simple, Starwood lied to us and told us that we could get better than money could pay for.  That's life.  But, I think people need to know the truth.  Don't follow the thread if you don't want to read about my anger.  Thank you.


----------



## Passepartout

Vtoriaholt said:


> I will take it back because I do not want them to get something less than we promised them.  It is called good business.  We do not cheat people.



I don't think you transferred the deed to them in the first place. Yet another factual irregularity in this whole fiasco. 

I truly believe the OP is living in a fantasy world.

Any chance a mod would like to declare that this has gone about as far as it needs to. This field has been plowed waaay too many times.

Jim


----------



## loafingcactus

aliikai2 said:


> You have received some valuable information and in your blindness to extract retribution you are dooming your friends to failure and substantial loss.
> 
> You may wish to at least tell them to come here and learn about their ownership.
> 
> fwiw,
> 
> Greg



Lol, the story has changed since then.  Apparently the blog post and the first five pages of the thread that never ends were mistaken: the dentist doesn't get to keep his timeshare.  And here I imagined him drinking his mojito on a beach in peace...


----------



## MommaBear

Margariet says this very well:



Margariet said:


> We are at the point that we don't get further with this issue. We all have asked you a lot of questions which you don't answer and than it becomes like an old record. Playing the same song over and over. It's a big question mark for me that you didn't settle this issue with your TS company 5 years ago. Or at least talked about it then. 1. Legally it's not a scam and 2. your sale happened too long ago to question it and 3. you don't own the TS anymore.:



Here it is in English:
1) You are ranting in a forum that has replied to you in many forms, yet you do not answer our questions.
2) At this point, the "popcorn" means we are watching you like we would a movie- entertaining but not real(istic)
3) At no point have you taken personal responsibility for signing a legal document when you did not understand your responsibilities
4) It is confusing to us that you state you have given away your timeshare but are still on the hook for $2,500 a year. If you have given away the timeshare, you no longer owe the $2,500 per year. 
5) You did receive value for your monies expended in that you had the option of going on vacation yearly. If you did not care for that kind of vacation you should a) have never signed up for it b) when you realized you did not care for timesharing, gotten rid of your property(ies)

So, you signed a legal document, now are annoyed that you did, want retribution and have passed your timeshare along to "friends" who may or may not have understood any better than you what they were getting into. If you did not explain to them clearly what their liabilty would be, I would think you are as culpable as you accuse Starwood of being. 

I, on the other hand, am thrilled to be a timeshare owner, as I am heading out to drink wine in Napa for a week and then on to Maui for fun in the sun for two weeks.


----------



## Vtoriaholt

He doesn't want to deal with these people that change their story, and contracts every time it suits their whim.


----------



## RALnGA

Vtoriaholt said:


> We don't travel that way.  We fly first class, stay at first class hotels and expect first class service.  It was the wrong product for us.  We told the salesman that and he just blatantly lied.  I will not change the way we travel for some timeshare.  We do not stand in lines.



Is this "PERSON" for real ???
I think someone is playing  just to get our reaction .....
After all this is a guest...
If I had Her/His MONEY why worry about a little 58K?
And I wonder if  She/He has ever scamed anyone ...Mabe her/his Dentist to take this  nightmare from Her/Him??
RAL:hysterical:


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Have a great day!!


----------



## Bubbasgonefishin

I have 2 questions:

1.  Why didn't you buy the week/resort you wanted in the first place.  You stated you could afford it.  

2.  Why haven't you traded through Interval International?  

3.  If you can afford $2500 a year then why the anger/hostility?  I lost my job 3 years ago and can barely pay our Maintenance fees.  I have had yard sales and sold "junque" on ebay just to pay our MF's.   I love WSJ and while our week is 35 we have managed to trade it for another week in 2011 and 2012.  

The people here have been extremely helpful and informative, Especially Denise.  While I don't know them personally I do consider them friends because they have my best interest at heart.  

And yes that was 3.  lol


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Get over it.  We resigned ourselves to the loss.  We are real people that were scammed by Starwood.  We told them from the beginning that we always travel first class.  Any sales person worth their salt would have told us that this is not the product for us.


----------



## MommaBear

You could always give your units away on TUG under bargain deals- someone here would be delighted to have them.


----------



## Vtoriaholt

We tried to give them to charity, they wouldn't even take them!!!


----------



## DeniseM

> Starwood lied to us and told us that we could get better than money could pay for



This is the Westin on Maui - a beautiful ocean front resort. 






A 2 bdm. villa rents for $7,329 a week from Starwood!  (Honest - I just looked it up.)

Here's the kicker - your friends can trade the timeshare you gave them for that $7,329 villa!  So for their maintenance fee of $1,250 + about $154 in exchange fees, they can stay in a villa that retails for $7,329.

Yes - BETTER than money can pay for!


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Thanks for the info DeniseM.  They are so totally angry at Starwood, as we are, that they cannot see straight.


----------



## aliikai2

*If you just want to get rid of this albatross*

I know someone that would take it off your hands, email me, Greg



Vtoriaholt said:


> Thanks for the info DeniseM.  They are so totally angry at Starwood, as we are, that they cannot see straight.


----------



## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> Thanks for the info DeniseM.  They are so totally angry at Starwood, as we are, that they cannot see straight.



Victoria - There is no reason for your friends to be angry at Starwood. It wasn't Starwood who mislead them - it was you! 

You did not know how to use this timeshare, or take the time so find out, so you got frustrated, and dumped it on them.  

Now you are keeping them in the dark, because if they came here and learned how to get the most out of this timeshare, and stayed in that $7,000 villa, it would prove you wrong....


----------



## Vtoriaholt

DeniseM, I TALKED to Starwood and told them what I wanted to do.  They told me what Star Points I could take out and what Star Options would be availabe to the new owners.  So, I don't think you understand the situation.  They LIED to us.  For 5 years!!!!!  Then we talked to the law firm and told them what we intended to do... NO ONE TOLD US IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.  Sound like as scam to you???  Be honest.  (if you can)


----------



## Passepartout

Vtoriaholt said:


> They are so totally angry at Starwood, as we are, that they cannot see straight.



Victoria, you are blinded by rage and simply striking out at shadows. Your friends that you say you gave the unit(s) to- Or not- it just depends on how far along the narrative one reads- have no reason to be angry. What could possibly anger someone about being given over 50K worth of wonderful luxurious vacations, and a whole bunch of people volunteering to help them over the learning curve?

Go pour yourself a glass of wine and settle down.

You REALLY aren't the first person who bought something they regretted later. One major difference is it appears that unlike a huge number of folks, you seem to be able to afford it.

Get your facts straight.

And good luck with single highhandedly wiping the scammers off the face of the earth.  It's a big job. Keep your strength up.

Jim


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Thanks Jim.  You put a smile on my face.  I have my glass of wine.  But will not give up the fight.


----------



## DeniseM

Victoria - No one told you that WHAT was not possible?   

Except for not being able to get Westin St. John at Christmas, you have been very vague about what you couldn't do.

I also don't understand how they lied to you for 5 years?  Who were you talking to?  What were you asking?


----------



## Vtoriaholt

DeniseM  I told the salesperson how we traveled.  We loved Starwood.  We thought they would make life easier.  They did not.  We were quite happy paying cash.  Now we get to pay cash for nothing.


----------



## VacationForever

Vtoriaholt said:


> Read my blog.  We used it for 5 years,  We knew the system.  Never did Interval International.  Only used it to go to Westin Kierland or convert to star points to travel to other Starwood properties.



In your last post you said you "got to pay cash for nothing".  Looks like you had lots of fun vacation during the 5 years.  

I vote that the Mod just consider this thread closed.  A horse beaten to death too many times.


----------



## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> DeniseM  I told the salesperson how we traveled.  We loved Starwood.  We thought they would make life easier.  They did not.  We were quite happy paying cash.  Now we get to pay cash for nothing.



That's your case?  That's going to stand up in court?  You are going to sue Starwood because the sales person didn't have your best interest at heart? 

Again - what did you try to do with this timeshare that you couldn't do? - please be specific.

Were you aware of the timeframes for making reservations?  

Did you look at the Staroptions charts to see what you could trade for and when?


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Just dont read the thread.  No brainer.


----------



## jerseygirl

:zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:


----------



## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> Just dont read the thread.  No brainer.



I have to - this is my forum.  

You have made it very clear that you are unhappy, but that's not enough - you have to have FACTS if this is ever going to stand up in court.

Besides that fact that you are unhappy with Starwood, we still don't know what you wanted to do, and couldn't do.  Do you?


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Thanks DeniseM.  I appreciate you being here.


----------



## DeniseM

Besides, Westin Kierland Villas, and Westin St. John, did you ever trade these weeks, or try to?

Did you ever convert to Starpoints and use them for Starwood hotels?

What happened?


----------



## Vtoriaholt

we donated to starwood points and gave them to family


----------



## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> we donated to starwood points and gave them to family



So, did you ever attempt to use the Starpoints for hotel stays, or airline tickets, or to trade the Staroptions for other resorts, besides WSJ and WKV?


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Nope.  Cash works really well


----------



## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> Nope.  Cash works really well



So, if you never tried, how do you know it didn't work?


----------



## Vtoriaholt

We prefer to get what we want without bargaining.  Cash is king.  We never asked for a bargain,


----------



## tomandrobin

I skipped some pages....so bare with me if this has been asked.

Were you able to use the timeshares? 

If you did use them what did you do?


----------



## sail27bill

Victoria--I think the biggest issue you have with Starwood now is that the SVN network does not transfer to your friends correct? And that at the time you bought, this was not made apparent to you.  I understand how you feel.  I had to find Tug in order to gain this information.

Furthermore, I have family who bought at a "voluntary" resort 2.5 years ago.  They financed it even though I told them not to (told them to buy resale and tried explaining to them the difference between mandatory and non-mandatory resorts).  The salesperson told them I was wrong.  They believed them. Lo and behold, they got a rude awakening when they looked at ebay and redweek and saw what Starwood units were selling for, especially their "non-mandatory" unit whose SVN rights do not transfer on ownership to non-family members.  I am of the position that Starwood should do a better job of explaining this to perspective clients. That said, SVV in Interval trades pretty well.  We have traded it almost every year since we have owned and have gotten great Carribbean and beach locations.  

FWIW, I have had issues with Starwood.  I had to fight to get the Starpoints they promised me when I bought....it took months and an e-mail to Starwood headquaters stating that they failed to deliver on the contract and thus it was null and void and where to refund my money.  Suddenly, I got my starpoints.  They accidentally recorded a mortgage on my Harborside property (bought outright) because someone made a mistake.  It took over a year to rectify and have the lien removed, and again I stated if the problem was not fixed immediately, legal action would be taken.  They fixed it and proceeded to give me a resort credit for my first stay for my troubles.  Each time they "fixed" their errors.  When I was disappointed with my SVV, they even offered to put the price I paid towards a St. John unit.  I declined because I was mad.  In the end, it has worked out because of Interval International.  

The Westin Maui timeshare is gorgeous.  So are a lot of the Marriott timeshares you can trade into with Interval.  I was an upset owner at one point and time, (and yes, like you I like upscale places) but I have found ways to make it work.  Next year I am off to Aruba with friends staying at the Marriott Aruba Ocean Club by trading my SVV unit.  So if you or your friends decide to keep the units, the possibilities of good trades through Interval are endless.  Good luck.

Regards,
Anita


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Thanks so much for your input!


----------



## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> We prefer to get what we want without bargaining.  Cash is king.  We never asked for a bargain,



So.... you discovered that timesharing does not fit your lifestyle, and you got out.

I get that.

But what are your facts to support fraud?


----------



## DeniseM

tomandrobin said:


> I skipped some pages....so bare with me if this has been asked.
> 
> Were you able to use the timeshares?
> 
> If you did use them what did you do?



Tom - see posts 174 - 175 - 176


----------



## oneohana

JMO

I don't think the salesman lied when he/she said that she could stay at the Westin St. John during Christmas. She already did once.

 I read it as maybe they were refering to the hotel and not the ts . They just forgot to say the part where they have to convert to starpoints first. How did she expect to get in the LE Meridan in Monacco without converting.

The OP should've gotten 5* "Premium Status" instead of the 3* "Premium Status". Then maybe things would've been differtent.

"Cash works really well" Try adding 5* to that and see what happens.
Me personally, I do not have that kind of cash. So I have to slum it at WKORV.


----------



## Vtoriaholt

What are you smoking>


----------



## YYJMSP

Vtoriaholt said:


> For all posters, please read my blog before you post.  It is hard for you to participate if you have not read the blog.  Thank you.
> http://open.salon.com/blog/victoria_...will_not_end_1



Why does the OP keep insisting that we go and read the blog, and not really pay any serious attention to everyone's advice and questions?

Is there some other motive behind getting people to that link?  Do they get something out of every visitor (money, virus, etc)?  I'm curious, and suspicious...


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Nope.  Unlike Starwood. I get nothing for my time.  I am  just an angry customer.   So, read if you want.. don't if you don't want to.  What ever.


----------



## tomandrobin

DeniseM said:


> Tom - see posts 174 - 175 - 176



So no exchanges in II, no starpoint use, no staroption use and no home resort reservation.....Is that correct?


----------



## DeniseM

tomandrobin said:


> So no exchanges in II, no starpoint use, no staroption use and no home resort reservation.....Is that correct?



The first year (I think) she wrote and complained and got WSJ (not sure if points or options.)  After that, they only traded for WKV - they didn't try for other trades.


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Used Starpoints  did minimal options have no idea what interval international is.  We pay real money for our travel and are not flexible in our travel dates,  We mad that clear to the sales person.  So we are stuck.


----------



## DeniseM

Do you travel the same weeks every year?  What weeks?


----------



## C30NY

This is becoming quite redundant....

Instead of being ignorant to what everyone is saying...why don't you try to learn from them?  Maybe II (Interval) will benefit you?

Others have offered to relieve you of your 'burden'

From what I understand the main problem you have is you wanted to travel to WSJ every year at Christmas time and have not been able to do so?  Why not contact starwood about buying a westin st john week.  I know from reading what others have posted that many times they will 'buy back' your week and apply the credit to your new purchase.  Have you tried to even negotiate with them?


----------



## Tfleming675

*Lost*

I think we should shut this down and stop responding. This seems like flame bait and we are falling for it. I have better things to with my time and my timeshare.


----------



## Vtoriaholt

You just dont get it.  We travel all over the world.  We pay cash.  Do you know what that is???   No financing.  But we were scammed by Starwood.  So...  Life happens.  We dont want to travel around the world as third class citizens.  We do not travel that way, nor did we do that when we bought that piece of shit.  We are just trying to educate people about this scalm


----------



## C30NY

:hysterical:

Maybe you need upscale fractional ownership


http://www.ritzcarltonclub.com/ritz-carlton-membership/home-club.shtml


----------



## levatino

Wow, I never thought I would live to post this, but could someone please start a thread about the Lagunamar's pool temperature?  Anything for a sane thread!

Please!  ;-)


----------



## Vtoriaholt

If you don't like this thread, why are you respondng????


----------



## levatino

its like a bad car accident.


----------



## vacationhopeful

*She Is Back!*

*Hi, Sally13!

Got a new handle? At least we are not discussing Mexico*.:ignore:


----------



## VacationForever

I can tell you that Palm Springs area is rainy with thunderstorm all day.  Really wierd.  Pool temperature yesterday was great.  I take back any negative things that I may have implied about WMH.  I love my time here!  

Is that enough of a distraction from the thread?


----------



## jerseygirl

Vtoriaholt said:


> We are just trying to educate people about this scalm



The education about this scam has been available on TUG since at least 2002.  I knew, within hours of finding TUG, what the implications of owning a voluntary resort were (no SOs/SPs if you bought on the resale market and no ability to sell a voluntary resort bought from the developer as a complete package that included SOs/SPs).   I wish I had a $1 for every person who has come here after signing on the dotted line but before the recission period was up.  At the risk of adding insult to injury, did it never occur to you that the salesman might be lying when he told you that, despite significant cost variations, it didn't matter where you bought????  

98% of the people on this board agree with you about Starwood's sales practices and related policies.  As has been said multiple times, you're preaching to the choir.  

Your goal to educate the public is laudable -- but bringing it here was silly.  We already know everything you think you're revealing.  Hence, no sense of shock/horror, very little sympathy, etc.  

If you wanted help in making the best of what you bought, you found the right place.  If you thought you would be educating us ... well, enough said.


----------



## Bubbasgonefishin

Vtoriaholt said:


> You just dont get it.  We travel all over the world.  We pay cash.  Do you know what that is???   No financing.  But we were scammed by Starwood.  So...  Life happens.  We dont want to travel around the world as third class citizens.  We do not travel that way, nor did we do that when we bought that piece of shit.  We are just trying to educate people about this scalm





YES we know what money is.  No you weren't scammed.  You are mad because you want to take away someone elses week that THEY bought with their hard earned MONEY that you seem to have so much of.  I bought at Westin St John;  I get to go to Westin St John because I PAID for Westin St John.  You didn't.  I don't have to call/write/email someone and threaten them just so I can go the week I want.  

Where do you get off thinking you are priviliged to not stand in line or to demand the week you want?  You are no better than any of the rest of us. 
You are mad because you don't WANT to play by the rules.  Right?


----------



## C30NY

Oh god, I must have subscribed to this thread...my email just blew up!  :whoopie:


----------



## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> You just dont get it.  We travel all over the world.  We pay cash.  Do you know what that is???   No financing.  But we were scammed by Starwood.  So...  Life happens.  We dont want to travel around the world as third class citizens.  We do not travel that way, nor did we do that when we bought that piece of shit.  We are just trying to educate people about this scalm



Victoria - When you are talking to people face to face, do you tell them how rich you are?  It's really offensive.


----------



## siesta

before this thread likely gets locked down, id like to say im reminded of something a teacher said, it was in regards to land lost due to war but can relate to money. "If you can't keep it, you can't have it."

My advice: Read contracts before you sign them, understand what your buying before you buy them. Because if you dont, someone else will get your money, not just starwood. Good luck with your future endeavors.


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Thanks for your thoughts DeniseM


----------



## jerseygirl

Has anyone heard about Starwood's policy of not allowing owners to deposit the week we booked if we own a float week?  What's with that?  And, I hope this isn't true, but I heard the internet sucks at SVV and WSJ.


----------



## MommaBear

:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: 





vacationhopeful said:


> *Hi, Sally13!
> 
> Got a new handle? At least we are not discussing Mexico*.:ignore:


----------



## Tfleming675

levatino said:


> its like a bad car accident.



Now, that is funny. I want to turn away but just can't!


----------



## jerseygirl

Tfleming675 said:


> Now, that is funny. I want to turn away but just can't!



I feel the same way .... and fear what it says about us.


----------



## Vtoriaholt

We must travel in different circles.


----------



## Bubbasgonefishin

jerseygirl said:


> Has anyone heard about Starwood's policy of not allowing owners to deposit the week we booked if we own a float week?  What's with that?  And, I hope this isn't true, but I heard the internet sucks at SVV and WSJ.





Jerseygirl,

I couldn't get wireless in our villa but I could connect with hardwire.  I called Maintenance but they said it was the renovations.  I called the IT guruu but he never even came to the villa or even called back.   

You are right...the internet at WSJ sucks!  I had to go to the lobby to use my Kindle but still couldn't connect.


----------



## jerseygirl

Yeah, I don't think too many of us will be looking you up the next time we're at WSJ.


----------



## Passepartout

Victoria, meet Sally. Sally and Victoria, say 'Hi' to Vera. Now shake hands and go to your corners. C'mon out at the bell and have it out! 

Jim


----------



## woodyd70

Victoria, if you would have been willing to spend the same amount of time learning how to use your product as you have ranting on TUG, you could literally be an "expert" at using your product.

If you are loaded "with cash", I would ONLY assume that you inherited it, you could not possibly have earned it as easily as you spent it on a product that you weren't even willing to learn to use before dumping it on your poor friends.  Please send them to this forum so they may learn to use the product, and don't be an Indian giver and take it back now that you've discovered this "free" forum to learn how to use your purchase.

JMO


----------



## jerseygirl

Code:
	






Bubbasgonefishin said:


> Jerseygirl,
> 
> I couldn't get wireless in our villa but I could connect with hardwire.  I called Maintenance but they said it was the renovations.  I called the IT guruu but he never even came to the villa or even called back.
> 
> You are right...the internet at WSJ sucks!  I had to go to the lobby to use my Kindle but still couldn't connect.



I've had the opposite situation the last two years ... tied to the hard wiring.  I know some people take a router, but I'm afraid my family would disown me (they hide my crackberry as it is).  I have to get up early to hide my internet addiction.


----------



## C30NY

jerseygirl said:


> I have to get up early to hide my internet addiction.



I can picture this! Lol


----------



## DeniseM

Jerseygirl - Would you like to see Starwood automatically send out a receipt for every transaction?  I think some documentation would go a long way towards decreasing errors, and  make it easier to straighten them out.  

It makes no sense to make costly verbal transactions with no documentation.

I think any time something is done involving a deposit, trade, staroptions, or starpoints, a receipt should automatically be generated that documents EXACTLY what was done.


----------



## Tfleming675

I travel a lot for work and run into this a lot. My solution is to carry a small product from Apple called a Airport Express. This allows me to plug the router into the Airport and create a small instant wireless hotspot. Works like a charm.

In November I will be in WSJ and will not bring the Airport express or my laptop simply because my wife would kill me for doing this on an island as nice as St John.

PS, the Airport express is very little and can be easily hidden.


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Please delete this thread.  
I find it too exhausting.  Thank you


----------



## grgs

oneohana said:


> I don't think the salesman lied when he/she said that she could stay at the Westin St. John during Christmas. She already did once.
> 
> I read it as maybe they were refering to the hotel and not the ts . They just forgot to say the part where they have to convert to starpoints first.



At the risk of trying to give constructive advice to the original poster, it seems to me that the option to convert to starpoints would work quite well for them. I _think_ she owns two 2 bedroom platinum lockoff units at SVV.  I believe those together could be converted to 112K starpoints (56K for each unit).  I know most of us wouldn't do this, but it would give them maximum flexibility.  I think Oneohana may have it right, and this is something the salesperson likely promoted.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I have my own issues with Starwood, and I pay well over $10K in MF's to them annually.  Yep, you read it right.  

I just hope there is never a special assessment at SBP, or I am in deep stuff with Rick.  

Anyway, I feel for you, Victoria, but I paid almost nothing for all of my Starwood timeshares.  I will catch up with your cost pretty quickly in the high MF's, which started out to be about $680 (2 bed) when I bought many of my weeks in 2008, and they are now $1K.  My own personal issue.  I am not rich.  I am just a timeshare addict.  Many here can relate.

Another major concern for me is the way they changed our exchanging with II, which is causing me a lot of personal grief, trying to keep track of what is deposited, what I used myself (either used or rented to others), and what slips through the cracks, because II and Starwood have a plan to confuse owners.  

TUG has been here for a long time, and we have been discussing all of this a long time.


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Ouch  But thank you for your support.


----------



## C30NY

grgs said:


> At the risk of trying to give constructive advice to the original poster, it seems to me that the option to convert to starpoints would work quite well for them. I _think_ she owns two 2 bedroom platinum lockoff units at SVV.  I believe those could be converted to over 100K starpoints each.  I know most of us wouldn't do this, but it would give them maximum flexibility.  I think Oneohana may have it right, and this is something the salesperson likely promoted.



But if OP has transferred ownership to her friend, and now has transferred it back, would it now be a 'resale' even though she was the original purchaser...nullifying the SO & SP?


----------



## levatino

Vtoriaholt said:


> Please delete this thread.
> I find it too exhausting.  Thank you



To paraphrase Gerald Ford:
My fellow Americans, our long national nightmare is over.


Please accommodate the original poster and avoid posting to prevent exhaustion.


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Maybe you do not care about your friends.  I will not leave my friends with this mess.  We will take it back and deal with it.


----------



## grgs

Jase369 said:


> But if OP has transferred ownership to her friend, and now has transferred it back, would it now be a 'resale' even though she was the original purchaser...nullifying the SO & SP?



Yes, if she did formally transfer the ownership, the option to convert to SPs would no longer be available.  Given that she stated that she was still on the hook for the mf, I was thinking maybe a formal transfer hadn't actually occurred.  Hard to be sure of what the exact situation is, though.


----------



## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> Please delete this thread.
> I find it too exhausting.  Thank you



I'm sorry, but we don't close threads just because people didn't get the response they wanted.  However, I'm quite sure that if you want to stop posting, by tomorrow this thread will be completely forgotten.  It's up to you.


----------



## jerseygirl

Tfleming675 said:


> ... the Airport express is very little and can be easily hidden.



Thanks for the tip.  I love small items that can be hidden!!  Don't give into your temptation to sneak yours along!!



Bubbasgonefishin said:


> ... I couldn't get wireless in our villa but I could connect with hardwire ....



Ooops .. I read this wrong the first time Buuba.  I see we both had problems with the wireless.  Sorry to read that you were tied to the hard wiring too!  I remember the first year we had our pool villa, I was able to do all my "sneaking" on the patio before everyone got up.  This year, I had to pull the hard wire through the kitchen window and sit at a bar stool to "surf the web" outside.  I wonder if the hotel guests, who are paying good money for their rooms (unlike us  ) have trouble with their internet also???


----------



## Pedro

Vtoriaholt said:


> Please delete this thread.
> I find it too exhausting.  Thank you


Finally you said something that made sense.  I've been reading this thread for a few days and refrained to post - I was too busy enjoying my starpoints and staroptions to get caught into what seems to be childish ranting.  When I bought my first timeshare, I took my time to study the ins and outs of the program so I wouldn't be surprised, and I read the documents to know what I was exactly getting into.  I understand you didn't read them since all the complains seem to be centered around what the salesman said, and not about what the document said.
This thread reminded me of a relative of my wife that all she does is talk about how much money she has, and all the first class trips she takes.  You would thing she is happy, but no, all she does is complain about everything.  Nothing is good enough for her, and will never take responsibility for her own actions.  She is a perfect example of the saying "money can't buy happiness."


----------



## jerseygirl

DeniseM said:


> Jerseygirl - Would you like to see Starwood automatically send out a receipt for every transaction?  I think some documentation would go a long way towards decreasing errors, and  make it easier to straighten them out.
> 
> It makes no sense to make costly verbal transactions with no documentation.
> 
> I think any time something is done involving a deposit, trade, staroptions, or starpoints, a receipt should automatically be generated that documents EXACTLY what was done.



What a great idea Denise.  I can't believe no one has ever thought of this before. 



levatino said:


> To paraphrase Gerald Ford:
> My fellow Americans, our long national nightmare is over.



:hysterical: 

Starwood's response to the OP:  You $%^&*# up ... you trusted us.

(with credit to National Lampoon, of course)



Vtoriaholt said:


> Maybe you do not care about your friends.  I will not leave my friends with this mess.  We will take it back and deal with it.



We don't have friends, except each other.  We used to, until they all figured out that we don't travel in style.


----------



## C30NY

grgs said:


> Hard to be sure of what the exact situation is, though.



amazing isn't it?  200+ posts and we still don't even know who is in possession of the timeshare!


----------



## Vtoriaholt

From what I read, granted, you are probably no better than Starwood, if a poster asks for a thread to be shut down, that you will do it.  So, what is the problem.


----------



## tomandrobin

Jase369 said:


> amazing isn't it?  200+ posts and we still don't even know who is in possession of the timeshare!



The OP....

Less the Staroptions now.


----------



## gnorth16

*After all the ranting the OP never once took resposiblilty for their actions and puts the blame on everyone else.*  Guess what, no one forced you to sign and no one prevented you from reading/researching what you bought.

Obviously inhereted money.  I have never seen such a disrepect for money and others, especially those that were trying to help.

Slumming in Timeshares....
We cater to no one....
Cash is King....
If we don't get what we want, we complain until we get it....

I guess money can't buy you happiness!

All the best being miserable!!!


----------



## Tfleming675

Ok, I am back. Had to make popcorn and get a drink. Don't want to miss the action. 

This is like reality TV - they say it is real but just can't imagine how it can be.  

:deadhorse:


----------



## jerseygirl

If the weeks were transferred to the friend/dentist, then transferred back to the OP, I think Starwood would reinstate the SOs and SPs .... if the OP explained the situation calmly and rationally.


----------



## C30NY

jerseygirl said:


> if the OP explained the situation calmly and rationally.



Lol and did I say Lol? :rofl:


----------



## pointsjunkie

Vtoriaholt said:


> You just dont get it.  We travel all over the world.  We pay cash.  Do you know what that is???   No financing.  But we were scammed by Starwood.  So...  Life happens.  We dont want to travel around the world as third class citizens.  We do not travel that way, nor did we do that when we bought that piece of shit.  We are just trying to educate people about this scalm



i travel all over the world, stay at the St. regis for FREE. fly first class for free all because of my starwood timeshares and knowing how to work the programs (FF miles and starpoints)
i never finance anything, charge everything so i can get starpoints or miles and can go wherever and whenever i want to for the rest of my life.

booked my kids honeymoon with starpoints and airmiles total cost $90.

you just need to take a deep breath and learn how to work it, it is amazing when you know how.

i have a retirement fund of miles and points  my DH has the retirement account for the cash. so when it is time we will be able to fly all over the world in first class and stay at glorious resorts all for FREE.

and that's why i am known as the pointsjunkie:rofl:


----------



## DeniseM

Vtoriaholt said:


> From what I read, granted, you are probably no better than Starwood, if a poster asks for a thread to be shut down, that you will do it.  So, what is the problem.



Victoria - If you weren't a newbie, you would know how funny your statement is.  I am one of Starwood's biggest critics on this forum.  But, I try to be fair, and your complaints about Starwood are just not reasonable, because you take no responsibility for buying a product that you didn't, and still don't understand, and made no effort to learn about.

We do not delete threads just because someone doesn't like the response they got.  When you first posted, people were quite kind and understanding, but when you didn't get the response you wanted, you became condescending and abrasive.  We aren't impressed by that around here.

As I said - if you quit posting, by tomorrow this thread will be a memory - we have lots of other things to discuss.

When you are digging a deep hole - stop digging!


----------



## Passepartout

Vtoriaholt said:


> We will take it back and deal with it.



Cool! OK, now get over that you either voluntarily bought, or were sold something at retail that you were not aware of how, and/or were unwilling to learn, how to use.

Read the Starwood forum. Read your handbook. There are no better experts about Starwood than DeniseM and Cindy. They actually MAKE MONEY on their Starwood timeshares. Consult with them. Maybe even _pay_ them for their time and expertise if that makes you feel better.

After you find how to use them to your advantage, then attend the 'owners' updates and shout from the rafters "Don't Buy From These Thieves, Liars and Scammers!" 

You will feel better and be one of our loyal allies. We'll feel better too. You can even invite your dentist. He'll feel better too.

Everybody feels better and this thread can go where all too-long, too repetitive threads go. To just another string of ones and zeros i n the dustbin of cyberspace.

Jim


----------



## gnorth16

Vtoriaholt said:


> From what I read, granted, you are probably no better than Starwood, if a poster asks for a thread to be shut down, that you will do it.  So, what is the problem.




Watch out, she just might be weiting a letter as we speak to get what she wants!

*Denise is one of the people who make TUG such a great resource.  In my short time here, she has helped me several times and is an asset to this board.  I hope one day to meet her in my travels!*


----------



## Vtoriaholt

Thanks Jim.  Appreciate the thought.


----------



## Vtoriaholt

do you weit letters?


----------



## Vtoriaholt

I was just trying to make it lighter on you.  Whatever


----------



## YYJMSP

DeniseM said:


> Jerseygirl - Would you like to see Starwood automatically send out a receipt for every transaction?  I think some documentation would go a long way towards decreasing errors, and  make it easier to straighten them out.
> 
> It makes no sense to make costly verbal transactions with no documentation.
> 
> I think any time something is done involving a deposit, trade, staroptions, or starpoints, a receipt should automatically be generated that documents EXACTLY what was done.



I would be in favour of that -- it ties in with my thread about what units are used by SO bookings, etc.

It's amazing how much of the detail is still not fully transparent in the process...


----------



## YYJMSP

grgs said:


> At the risk of trying to give constructive advice to the original poster, it seems to me that the option to convert to starpoints would work quite well for them. I _think_ she owns two 2 bedroom platinum lockoff units at SVV.  I believe those could be converted to over 100K starpoints each.  I know most of us wouldn't do this, but it would give them maximum flexibility.  I think Oneohana may have it right, and this is something the salesperson likely promoted.



Platinum SVV 2BR L/O's convert to only 56K SPG points each I believe...


----------



## heathpack

You guys rock.  I have wanted to trade in to Westin St John some day, not likely without Starwoood preference (not even that likely with, LOL!).  Starpoints, though, that's the ticket!  Would work well for us- we only need a hotel room, we get Starpoints essentially for free as a result of AMEX spending.  Only 128,000 SP for a 10 night stay, or 38,000 plus $780 on a cash + points stay.  Man, I love the SPG program.

Thanks for the brainstorming, this is really the better way to go for us.

H


----------



## rickandcindy23

Starwood does watch TUG, and it's a much better venue than your blog.  Of course, they will see your blog too, because it is linked. 

I think it would be IDEAL if Starwood sent us a receipt for every deposit and every transaction.  I want details.  I just want an email with the week used, and then I want that week number (contract #) to show on II!  It's not that difficult, I don't think.  Why do they not do this?


----------



## DeniseM

YYJMSP said:


> I would be in favour of that -- it ties in with my thread about what units are used by SO bookings, etc.
> 
> It's amazing how much of the detail is still not fully transparent in the process...



That's what got me thinking about it - I was just was trying to interject something meaningful in this thread, but I think I will start a new thread about it.  An email campaign to Starwood might get it done.


----------



## VacationForever

I did not know about SPG Amex until about 2 months ago, thanks to TUG and Denise and we have since charged almost everything to it.  We figure by the time we retire (in 3-4 years time) we will have about 600K starpoints!  We are also converting my SVR every other year to Starpoints.  We figure we will spend them mostly in Europe.


----------



## DeniseM

rickandcindy23 said:


> Starwood does watch TUG, and it's a much better venue than your blog.  Of course, they will see your blog too, because it is linked.



Yeah, I bet the powers that be about fell off their office chairs when they saw me DEFENDING Starwood!  :rofl: 

Hey, maybe this thread was a trap to trick me into that?


----------



## grgs

YYJMSP said:


> Platinum SVV 2BR L/O's convert to only 56K SPG points each I believe...



Yes, you're right.  I made a mistake.  I meant to say the two units together would get over 100K in SPs.  I'll fix my other post.

Thanks!


----------



## jerseygirl

DeniseM said:


> Yeah, I bet the powers that be about fell off their office chairs when they saw me DEFENDING Starwood!  :rofl:
> 
> Hey, maybe this thread was a trap to trick me into that?



We're one big disfunctional family here .. only we can trash Uncle Starwood!


----------



## mauigirl1989

*The nightmare that will not end....*

Victoria Holt
New Mexico State University (1973-1977)
University of Idaho (1976-1977)
University of New Mexico - Law (1981-1984)
:hysterical:


----------



## DeniseM

Fishing for a class action lawsuit on TUG?

Wouldn't be the first time!  

From her blog:



> If anyone else has been scammed by this, please let me know. We need to *ban together* for *further action* against this! I think this is the biggest scam in the entire world!!
> Victoria Holt
> September 07, 2011 05:01 PM



No wonder she wants the thread deleted.


----------



## VacationForever

jerseygirl said:


> We're one big disfunctional family here .. only we can trash Uncle Starwood!



I am still a supporter of Starwood.  I see it as a business.  When they build resorts, they have to sell them for construction cost + a profit margin.  In case anyone forgets, it costs $$$ to build a unit.  When eBay resale price is $1, does it really mean it should only cost $1?  No.  It is simply the forces of demand and supply.  What Starwood should do is to actively buy back any timeshare out there in the market that is below the cost to build it.  That way, timeshare owners are less likely to feel "scammed".  There is no scam, just market forces that determines the resale price.  Starwood tries to make it more attractive to buy from them by making Staroptions and Starpoints exclusive to developer purchase (exception of mandatory resorts, of course).  

In the words of Jarta, you seldom see a 5* Elite complaining about Starwood.  I am a no star Starwood owner but I am also a practicalist and an economist (by training, amongst several other professions, but not a lawyer!).


----------



## jerseygirl

Hmmm ... this thread is just full of new ideas!


----------



## VacationForever

DeniseM said:


> Fishing for a class action lawsuit on TUG?
> 
> Wouldn't be the first time!
> 
> From her blog:



DEFINITELY!


----------



## RX8

Let's recap.  

Throw a tantrum.  When well meaning people ask questions to try to find out exactly what the problem is, give the runaround instead of answering the questions.  Get angry at everybody. Complain that it is not your fault.  Say you are exhausted and you don't want to talk about it anymore.

I swear I just described my FIVE YEAR OLD SON to a tee.  :hysterical:


----------



## timeos2

Vtoriaholt said:


> Maybe you do not care about your friends.  I will not leave my friends with this mess.  We will take it back and deal with it.



Victoria: In all seriousness and with no malice toward you I hope you can slow down just a bit, digest what has been posted here as positive moves you can make to improve the situation - as well as go after Starwood if that remains a goal for, I'd love to see you succeed at that - and maybe get something of value in the end for you and/or your friend. 

What you bought, although it may not have been what you thought you were being sold, nonetheless is a valuable ownership. Plenty here, and maybe your friend/Dentist as well, could very well find it to be a nice ownership to have used for all it is worth.  If you did in fact already transfer the ownership rushing to take it back, unless that's the only thing your friends want, might degrade it's value even more.  Again there are literally people here on TUG who have tried to show you (or them if they visited) how to extract that value and some would be happy to take the ownership, relieve you of any future obligation, and not feel they were in anyway taken advantage of as they know exactly what it is.

If being done with an expensive mistake or knowing how to best utilize it isn't your goal then the continuation of this thread seems pointless.

While it could be closed and locked it most likely will not be deleted as in the past deleting active threads such as this created more questions & problems than it solved. The ability to delete posts was restricted due to that previous debacle. 

Either way I hope you get your warning out to those that need to hear it.


----------



## oneohana

Denise,

Have you been drinking the "orange" juice.:hysterical: 

Is this the second time that you're defending Starwood?


----------



## DeniseM

oneohana said:


> Denise,
> 
> Have you been drinking the "orange" juice.:hysterical:
> 
> Is this the second time that you're defending Starwood?



I can't believe it myself!  :ignore:


----------



## LisaRex

After mulling it over, I believe Victoria wants to use her Blog to show Starwood that all her negative publicity is going viral.  That is why she keeps telling people to read her Blog.  She'll just show them how many visitors she's had, and offer to shut it down if they make her a nice offer.

She has no idea that Starwood reads this board and is probably having a good laugh at her silly posturing.  

P.S. I cannot believe that *I* am defending Starwood, either, but there you have it.  Are the stars out of alignment?


----------



## Vtoriaholt

I would never do that to friends.  We will take it back and eat the cost.  If you read the blog, you would see that we have used the "program" over the last 5 years.


----------



## Ken555

This entire thread is absurd. I had sympathy for the OP in the beginning, but the lack of facts, coherent and consistent history of her experience, rudeness to long standing members of TUG, and general snobbiness has definitely left me believing the OP is angry, upset and doesn't know what to do so is simply lashing out at anyone about her problem. It's time for her to grow up, accept her poor decision at believing the sales verbal statements, and move on. I'd like to see proof she files a lawsuit, until then this thread is a waste of time. She's not open to learning about timeshares, to her obvious disadvantage, so she should go back to paying cash for premium service (ha, that's a laugh).


----------



## VacationForever

LisaRex said:


> After mulling it over, I believe Victoria wants to use her Blog to show Starwood that all her negative publicity is going viral.  That is why she keeps telling people to read her Blog.  She'll just show them how many visitors she's had, and offer to shut it down if they make her a nice offer.
> 
> She has no idea that Starwood reads this board and is probably having a good laugh at her silly posturing.
> 
> P.S. I cannot believe that *I* am defending Starwood, either, but there you have it.  Are the stars out of alignment?



You would also notice on her site that she does not have many friends and followers of her blog.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Is This A Great Web Site, Or What ?*




sptung said:


> You would also notice on her site that she does not have many friends and followers of her blog.


Plenty of friends & followers on TUG-BBS. 

I love it here -- even more than FaceBook. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## LAX Mom

Victoria,

I've read this entire thread and your blog but I'm still confused about the facts. I don't own Starwood timeshares but have stayed at several and generally understand the lingo. I currently own Marriott timeshares.

You were on vacation 5 years ago at the Westin Kierland Hotel and purchased 2 properties with Starwood? Florida? Orlando?

It was represented that you could use these Starwood timeshares to travel to the nicest resorts during peak travel times? Didn't that seem too good to be true? 

In the past 5 years how have you used these timeshares? Timeshare stays? Hotel stays? Have you been happy with the vacations in the past 5 years but now that you are empty nesters hotels are a better fit for your vacations? 

Unfortunately timeshares sales people do greatly exaggerate during the presentations. It's not just Starwood, but all timeshare people make numerous promises that aren't in the written documents. I've heard many Marriott sales people claim you can use an off-season Marriott studio to exchange into a 2 bedroom at the Maui Marriott. Yes, it can happen in flexchange, but it's not easy. A 90 minute presentation is not long enough to teach someone how to really use these timeshare vacations.

I'm sorry for your experience with Starwood. There are many others who have purchased from other companies and had the same experience. Many people return from a honeymoon in Mexico and report here that they have purchased weeks they intend to rent out for a profit. In spite of what the sales people have told them, it's not going to happen. 

There is a lot of helpful information on TUG and plenty of people willing to help you learn to use what you have purchased. I would suggest you either utilize this info and enjoy some great vacations or give these weeks away on the Bargain Deals section of TUG. It's not worth the aggravation, life is too short. 

Good luck!


----------



## Larry

Ken555 said:


> This entire thread is absurd. I had sympathy for the OP in the beginning, but the lack of facts, coherent and consistent history of her experience, rudeness to long standing members of TUG, and general snobbiness has definitely left me believing the OP is angry, upset and doesn't know what to do so is simply lashing out at anyone about her problem. It's time for her to grow up, accept her poor decision at believing the sales verbal statements, and move on. I'd like to see proof she files a lawsuit, until then this thread is a waste of time. She's not open to learning about timeshares, to her obvious disadvantage, so she should go back to paying cash for premium service (ha, that's a laugh).



You are sooo correct!!!!

I also stayed at Westin Kierland a few years ago and attended the same sales presentation, listened to their BS, told them many of their statements were incorrect and said thanks, but no thanks. 

They tried selling us the Westin Lagunamar in Cancun a brand new resort at that  time for much less than the OP paid for Orlando. Although I am not that familiar with the starwood timeshare program if someone wants to go to a place like the Westin St. John for Xmas week and only travels during prime season I would make sure it gives you that in writing. You would also need to purchase a week at the St. John property for any preference and not expect a preference if buying in Orlando.

For example if you purchase a Marriott  timeshare ( before their new points system) and if you wanted an Aruba or Hawaii property for a holiday season you would have to buy a Platinum plus week ( I do not own Marriott so if it is called something else please correct me) and you would have first priority to get a holiday week such as xmas, new years, president's week etc., if you bought at that property and it would be in your written contract.

So why didn't the OP get it in writing? She just signs a contract and does no due diligence and 5 years later complains about the program that she knows almost nothing about????

Just one further comment I too enjoy luxury vacations and many of my timeshare vacations have been to five star plus resorts that have daily maid service, outstanding restaurants on premises, views to die for, and hotel type amenities, including room service, plus they are suites or villas with full kitchens and can accommodate 4-6 people. These resorts usually cost $400-$650 per night when booking directly with resort. Plus I rent out several of my timeshares covering all of my maintenance fees for my 12 weeks a year that I own.


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## MommaBear

Larry said:


> So why didn't the OP get it in writing? She just signs a contract and does no due diligence and 5 years later complains about the program that she knows almost nothing about????



AND she says she is a lawyer. Don't they have to take a course in Contract Law?


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## scootr5

Larry said:


> So why didn't the OP get it in writing? She just signs a contract and does no due diligence and 5 years later complains about the program that she knows almost nothing about????



Way back in post #111 I quoted this from her blog:
"We decided to purchase two properties so that we would enjoy “Premium Status.” (Whatever that is.. Sounded good.) "​
She just wants hits on the blog and people that agree with her, not advice or help.


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## AwayWeGo

*Pillars Of Legal Education.*




MommaBear said:


> Don't they have to take a course in Contract Law?


That is the course which teaches, _When You Have The Facts On Your Side, Argue The Facts. _

Also, _When You Have The Law On Your Side, Argue The Law. _

And most important,_ When The Facts & The Law Are Both Against You, Pound On The Table & Speak In A Loud Voice. _ 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## DeniseM

I find it interesting that the OP is keeping the thread alive, when yesterday she asked for it to be deleted 3 different times.


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## Passepartout

I didn't get that she claims to be an attorney. Only that the law office's document preparer Starwood recommended for transferring her ownership(s) wasn't. So be it.

Her blog posts are all baseless rants and nothing more. Eventually she will tire of repeating herself and find a new subject to rant about. Whatever floats her boat.

Her pain is real, but it's also self inflicted. It's very hard to admit when one's difficulties are of one's own doing.

At this stage, I feel that she'd be happier in the long run to give- or sell if possible- her Starwood ownership to someone else. Preferably a stranger, so that she doesn't feel any attachment to them.

Then move on. Stay in hotels with room service. Pay $100 for a box of graham crackers, marshmallows, and chocolate. Whatever.

Oh, and Victoria, pipers are much cooler on the shores of Loch Ness than on a golf course in Arizona. We had them at our Scottish castle wedding.

Jim


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## LisaRex

Passepartout said:


> Oh, and Victoria, pipers are much cooler on the shores of Loch Ness than on a golf course in Arizona. We had them at our Scottish castle wedding.



Very cool. 

The Ritz-Carlton Half Moon Bay (outside San Francisco) also has sunset pipers. Wonder whether there's a story behind why some hotels do this.


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## scrapngen

Sooo...let me get this straight after ploughing through this thread - 275 posts!...

Victoria (a wealthy lawyer) bought a Starwood TS 5 years ago from a salesperson who misrepresented the product and what she could do. (a very common story here on TUG, unfortunately)

She used it for 5 years, mostly unsuccessfully, and never took time to learn more. Never read her contract - or feels it is invalid as it does not match what the salesman said? Did not go back to the company with complaints. Had she learned more, according to several Starwood owners, she might have actually gotten very good value out of the TS, or potentially could have worked with the company to get a better fit rather than her "swamp." (maybe a fixed week, better location) Lot's of specific advice given in the thread..

She fobbed it off on a "friend," and in the process found out that some of the "few" perks she had do not pass on to the friend as a resale. 

Refuses to let "friend" know about TUG and the helpful people who could teach them how to maximise the use of said TS and/or would gladly take it off their hands so the friend is not "stuck" with the MF's or a bad (in the OP's eyes) product. 

NOW she's upset and wants to sue anyone and everyone as a solution. However, does NOT want to actually help the friend with better information about what they now own. Repeatedly says she wouldn't do to a friend what was done to her... 

In the meantime, is not happy with the direction the thread has taken as it does not validate her in the way she had hoped. (there is sympathy for her original purchase ordeal w/TS sale, but disagreement in her later actions/non-action and current direction) Oh, and wants people to visit her blog...

Is that about right???


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## MON2REY

Vtoriaholt said:


> We told them from the beginning that we always travel first class.  .



When you travel first class do you buy a coach seat and expect to be upgraded to first class or do you buy a first class seat so you know where you will be sitting?


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## Margariet

scrapngen said:


> Sooo...let me get this straight after ploughing through this thread - 275 posts!...
> 
> Victoria (a wealthy lawyer)




She is a lawyer?? No, that can't be true!! And she never read the contract?? And she signed?? And she thought the representative of a closing company was a lawyer??

If she is a lawyer - which seems to me totally unbelievable, reading her postings and her blog - there really must be some mix up, I hope ... why the ... didn't she act earlier against the TS company? Well, because she knows, that there is no legal case against the TS company. In my country it is not possible to start a legal case 5 years after the sale. I don't know about American law but it seems to me that this would be the same in thr US. It's too late.

IMHO I think she's in financial need and cannot afford to pay the MF anymore and cannot afford to travel. Otherwise, if you are a wealthy lawyer you won't make a fuss of a TS sale after 5 years. It wasn't that much money!! And she had and could have wonderful vacations with her TS.


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## okwiater

MON2REY said:


> When you travel first class do you buy a coach seat and expect to be upgraded to first class or do you buy a first class seat so you know where you will be sitting?


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## Tfleming675

scrapngen said:


> Sooo...let me get this straight after ploughing through this thread - 275 posts!...
> 
> Victoria (a wealthy lawyer) bought a Starwood TS 5 years ago from a salesperson who misrepresented the product and what she could do. (a very common story here on TUG, unfortunately)



I can't believe she is a lawyer. A lawyer that does not understand contract law and the value of a signature on a piece of paper. Wow! this story just keeps getting better. Lawyers always want things in writing for this very reason.


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## Margariet

Tfleming675 said:


> I can't believe she is a lawyer. A lawyer that does not understand contract law and the value of a signature on a piece of paper. Wow! this story just keeps getting better. Lawyers always want things in writing for this very reason.



No, like I wrote before, I can't believe she is a lawyer. Read her blog - as she always tells us - and her postings! 

Don't know any lawyer that doesn't read contracts or change contracts! Most lawyers hardly sign any contract without making all sorts of changes and amendments first. This thread and her blog is the worst PR you can have as a lawyer. There really must be a mix up.


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## scrapngen

Margariet said:


> No, like I wrote before, I can't believe she is a lawyer. Read her blog - as she always tells us - and her postings!
> 
> Don't know any lawyer that doesn't read contracts or change contracts! Most lawyers hardly sign any contract without making all sorts of changes and amendments first. This thread and her blog is the worst PR you can have as a lawyer. There really must be a mix up.



see post #254 and/or bing Victoria Holt - New Mexico (per her blog)  
doesn't say she's a lawyer - just that she went to law school, but somewhere in this thread someone advised her to get a lawyer to help w/her suit and she said she didn't need one as she could do it herself...

Anyway, I have nothing against her, and other lawyers have fallen for TS sales pitches...it just seems she's complaining too loud, too late...

*BUT * if she truly valued her friendship w/the person she passed her TS onto, she'd suggest they also read TUG and make their own decisions re:  their new purchase from her...Then if after getting a better sense for themselves of their new timeshare they still wish to return it to her which seems her latest move - that's a more informed decision for both parties involved.  Otherwise, I'd have to think she's more of a frenemy. Dropping off a worthless (InHerOpinion) TS onto them - sticking them with the MF's and lifelong committment, then wanting to take it back when she learns more about it here on TUG...   

- sorry, Victoria, but that's the way it looks despite your loud protestations of how you wouldn't treat your friends the way Starwood treated you! ref:  post #105 and others of yours...


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## K&PFitz

I'm not a lawyer, but if one was going to sue Starwood over false promises by the sales rep, wouldn't you have to subpoena the sales rep?  Does anyone remember the name of their sales rep? I don't, and I doubt she still works for Starwood.

The OP is correct on one thing. SVV is a swamp.  I should know, as I've stayed there a half dozen times.  Go to TA and read about the monster frogs.  They have ponds everywhere, tropical flowers growing along every walkway.  My sales person never told me Florida was a hot humid swamp.  

Denise's post 157 in this thread hits the nail on the head for us.  We swapped our swampy timeshares a year ago and had a ocean view condo at WKORV for two weeks.  The OP could do the same.  

Or is the WKORV not first class either?


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## Margariet

K&PFitz said:


> I'm not a lawyer, but if one was going to sue Starwood over false promises by the sales rep, wouldn't you have to subpoena the sales rep?  Does anyone remember the name of their sales rep? I don't, and I doubt she still works for Starwood.


'
This is not a legal case. There was no scam. The law is very strict when it concerns scam. It might have been misleading, but even that is discussable. It's just sales talk. However, if you think the sales person was misleading, you can always discuss this with the company and try to settle this. It takes some time but in the end a company likes satisfied customers and will cooperate. Most disputes are settled outside of the court room. But what is important is the time frame. You can hardly dispute a sale of 5 years ago and especially when you have used the product for 5 years.


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## LisaRex

K&PFitz said:


> I'm not a lawyer, but if one was going to sue Starwood over false promises by the sales rep, wouldn't you have to subpoena the sales rep?



The statute of limitations has probably expired anyway.


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## Margariet

*





LisaRex said:


> The statute of limitations has probably expired anyway.



Don't know about US, but in my country definitely.

By using the TS she has weakened the issue as well. When you are not satisfied with a product, don't use it and don't keep paying your MF's. It's very silly to start complaining after years of using and start complaining when you gave the product away.

It doesn't matter if you gave it away to a friend, dentist, or whatever, it's not your product anymore, so you don't have any ground of complaining or whatever. The TS company doesn't have to deal with her anymore since she is not an owner anymore.

When the new owner is not happy, he however might have a case against her, since he bought it under false premises. That's her problem, not the problem of the TS company.

By taking it back she might solve this case and then she can easily give it away to someone else or auction it.


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## grgs

CNN has this article on the 7 resorts that celebs love:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/09/14/resorts.celebrities/index.html?&hpt=hp_c2

One on the list is St. Regis Princeville Resort, Kauai, Hawaii.  

I can't resist pointing out one could use SVV to trade into the Westin Princeville timeshare (which has some use privileges with the St. Regis). 

Glorian


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## Margariet

grgs said:


> CNN has this article on the 7 resorts that celebs love:
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/09/14/resorts.celebrities/index.html?&hpt=hp_c2
> 
> One on the list is St. Regis Princeville Resort, Kauai, Hawaii.
> 
> I can't resist pointing out one could use SVV to trade into the Westin Princeville timeshare (which has some use privileges with the St. Regis).
> 
> Glorian



My dentist would love this TS.


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## blondietink

The OP is a lawyer?  Must be she didn't pass the lawyer test.  

Wea re very happy SVV - Bella owners.  Bought direct, too when we didn't know a thing about the Starwood network.  We believe the unit we bought was a foreclosure, so got it at a steal.  Just glad we lucked out and got a mandatory resort.  At last owner's update they tried to sell us into the new St. Augustine section ... no way unless it is a mandatory section.  they tried to tell us that being "mandatory" didn't matter.  Thank you TUG boards for teaching me differently!


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## tarahsu

*have to chime in*

I wasn't going to chime in but I think I have to......salesperson lied to you....OMG...that's why they are sales people.  Have you never had a car salesman lie to you?  They are trying to sell you something so that they can make a commission!  That's great that you fly first class, stay in first class hotels etc.....so have tons of other people!  

I have flown first class since I was 5 years old and when there were beds in first class upstairs.  I have even flown the Concord!  But I did my research on timeshares for 2 years after a Westin Maui salesperson tried to sell us one.....and we said no...are you crazy for that price??  So now, I have 2 and paid less than $5 for each because they aren't worth anything.  I love it because I learned the ins and outs (from Denise...thanks much) and have traded to Thailand & Maui this year.  Next time.....do your research!


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## johnfornal

*Confused*

Hi Victoria,

Where are your deeded unit located?  I thought they were at Kierland?  I thought that Kierland was a mandatory SVN resort.  I thought that mandatory resorts allowed the resale of those rights.

Certainly as an example Sheraton Vacation Villages had some mandatory SVN sections such as Bella units and Star Options was the system you use to do an internal exchange.  Those Star Options used to convey.

Yes, availability is always necessary and the fact that you want some of the highest demand weeks should tell you those would be very difficult to get.  try as far in advance as possible...but I guess what I am reading is even then it is a remote possibility.  I have traded to Kierkand with my SVN, but only at quiet but cooler times, just not Winter.

My question is did Starwood reject conveying SVN rights for mandatory resorts.  Maybe its just too late at night for me to see that question and  answer in this posting.  

Thanks:zzz:


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## DeniseM

John - It appears that she bought at one of the voluntary resorts in Florida, while staying at Westin Kierland Villas - probably Vistana Villages.

There is no question - she is just after Starwood.


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## johnfornal

WOW...this has got to be one of the worst examples of our Nation's loss of business integrity....we represent 11 different institutions in their SFR foreclosure activity 

I know all too well how Wall Street encouraged some of the worst unethical, sales and underwriting behavior by bankers and brokers rewarding all those in the chain of title....until the old gray hairs like me said STOP...we just didn't say it soon or loud enough.  

Trillions are now at risk...

The greed shown at that time will cost this nation for years to come...all those who profited by it will be exceeded by everyone who now suffer from it...From plumbers to the car salesmen....from furniture makers to office helpers....

Now as a nation we collectively may have to decide if that first line of many of our contracts...We promise to pay_______will be honored...If not WOW.

I understand how Victoria feels....

John


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## DeniseM

John - I'm sorry, but you lost me completely.

What are you referring to?

Everything that Victoria has complained about is based on commonly known Starwood program rules...  which she apparently never read, during 5 years of ownership.

Now I'm the last person to defend Starwood, but Victoria simply never bothered to find out what she owned or how it worked, and now 5 years later she expects Starwood to do something about it.


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## Tfleming675

John, how is this in any way related to this topic. Someone signed a contract and then discovered that she did not like the terms and conditions of the contract she signed! The same would be true if a car slaesman talked her into a long term lease. My guess is this person would later figure out she was paying a 40 percent interest rate and then complain that she was lied to by the car sales person. The only thing that matters is what is in the written contract everything else is irrelevant!


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## KACTravels

This thread make me wonder if anyone knows about "giving" a timeshare to be used as is with all of the benefits of developer ownership? When we bought, I thought we were told we could give it or will it to anyone. Is that just a family member or when we die?


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## rickandcindy23

Developer benefits may transfer to an heir, but they may not.  It depends on the developer, and it also depends upon how the transfer to the heir is made.  

If you buy or sell a developer purchase, original owner benefits do not transfer to the buyer, if the developer says they don't.  That's the truth of it. and it's an ugly truth.  

I understood Victoria's outrage.  Salesmen are liars, and the contract is something one needs to read before rescinding.  She was naive and won't admit to being naive.


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## Margariet

rickandcindy23 said:


> I understood Victoria's outrage.  Salesmen are liars, and the contract is something one needs to read before rescinding.  She was naive and won't admit to being naive.



I can understand being angry but nof 5 years after the sales and not after using it for 5 years. IMHO this is just an anger because of something else. Having paid a bit too much for a TS in other times isn't life destroying, is it?


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## rickandcindy23

Victoria discovered after five years that her benefits didn't transfer to her dentist.  She had no idea those benefits didn't transfer, so that is why her "nightmare never ends."


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## Margariet

rickandcindy23 said:


> Victoria discovered after five years that her benefits didn't transfer to her dentist.  She had no idea those benefits didn't transfer, so that is why her "nightmare never ends."



I know, but then again her dentist received the TS for $0 and can have great vacations and exchanges. My dentist would love a week like that, I'm sure! And that being her never ending nightmare is quite hysterical, isn't it?  There are so many people in bigger problems and troubles. But I think she's already left this stage.


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## DeniseM

KACTravels said:


> This thread make me wonder if anyone knows about "giving" a timeshare to be used as is with all of the benefits of developer ownership? When we bought, I thought we were told we could give it or will it to anyone. Is that just a family member or when we die?



You can give it or will it to anyone, but only your heirs can inherit the developer perks.  You could give it to your heirs right now, and they would get the perks.


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## esk444

Margariet said:


> Don't know any lawyer that doesn't read contracts or change contracts! Most lawyers hardly sign any contract without making all sorts of changes and amendments first. This thread and her blog is the worst PR you can have as a lawyer. There really must be a mix up.



You'd be surprised.  A brilliant judge didn't read any of his mortgage documents.

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/do-l...contracts-judge-richard-posner-doesnt-do-you/

I think what's going on is that someone's upset about getting ripped off and is in the early stages of the grieving process, while most here on Tug are already at the acceptance stage.

I'd cut the person some slack, let them rant, and eventually they'll get to that point too.


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## DavidnRobin

esk444 said:


> You'd be surprised.  A brilliant judge didn't read any of his mortgage documents.
> 
> http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/do-l...contracts-judge-richard-posner-doesnt-do-you/
> 
> I think what's going on is that someone's upset about getting ripped off and is in the early stages of the grieving process, while most here on Tug are already at the acceptance stage.
> 
> I'd cut the person some slack, let them rant, and eventually they'll get to that point too.



and hopefully this thread will someday end - early stages of the grieving process? it has been 5 Years!  How about "Personal Responsibility"...?

not too mention the fact of how they treat their 'friends'...


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## jarta

David,   ...   "hopefully this thread will someday end"

End?  The aptly-named thread about the nightmare that never ends?  Not unless people can restrain themselves and forego posting here.

The OP last posted here 6 1/2 days ago.  And, yet the ripples are still apparent on the pond.  I find that rather interesting.  I wonder what it signifies?   ...    eom


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## califgal

It's hard to have empathy for someone (the OP) who has an uppity attitude (we never wait in lines, we only fly first class, we can afford anything, etc.), waited 5 years, won't direct the friends to TUG, and won't listen to the good advise here on TUG!  Had to make my comment.


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## tomandrobin

Is there a thread of the year award? 

I would love to nominate this to that award!


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## scrapngen

tomandrobin said:


> Is there a thread of the year award?
> 
> I would love to nominate this to that award!



it would have to compete with the [deleted] thread that lasted forever...


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## timeos2

*But I always get*

Somehow this thread came to mind when I saw this.  Cute & all too real.


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## J&JFamily

timeos2 said:


> Somehow this thread came to mind when I saw this.  Cute & all too real.



That was great!  Did you see the next video entitled "from a flight attendant's perspective"?  I almost wet myself I was laughing so hard!    BTW, don't watch the flight attendant video if you're offended by bad language.


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## ada903

That was so funny, thank you for posting it!!  :hysterical: 



timeos2 said:


> Somehow this thread came to mind when I saw this.  Cute & all too real.


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