# What is this called.?????



## Lets have less Greed (Oct 24, 2011)

Let me give you the story about in what direction the Phuket beach club is going.

I purchased 6 weeks ofthis exeptional units in 2000 this Timeshare is connected with the JW Marriott, indeed this resort is well managed and is 100% sold out .At time of purschase I was advised due to the Thai property ownership law , that this " timeshare" was a membership so to comply with the law of the land.I received documents that this resort will have a HOA and be managed like a timeshare , We where aswell advised that the units can aswell be resold by Marriott , once  all original units are sold out, at however a25% fee.No issue with this ( since selling a timeshare in Thailand demands a different approach than in the USA )

After the three phase where sold out I enquiered to do the resale , No was the answer , ( the original three phases are under the sponsor /ownership of the land of mino r international)
Since Marriott buid adjacent to the JW another unit, and since the now implementd Asia Pacific Points the focus is on selling this program .with out the Phuket beach club owners Marriott purchased 12 units for the Asia panic club , and contacts the sale at the Phuket beach club/ JW Marriott .this is to enhance the value of the Asia panic points program.
Several owner at the original phase do want to resale partially for need and partially to benefit from the gain .

The units adjacent to the JW are by far not as popular, due to it's generic timeshare ambiente.

We believe ,life is made difficult and the promised resale is not be done  so owners get frustrated and default ,  the units than can be resold  by the
Managment company ,or the original developer the original owner get the shaft/ nothing

In the original documents it called for a HOA ,mysteriously this has never been implemented ,instead a advisory commitee has been created ,with NoNo powers.

Many original owners believe now that the are getting cheated out of there excellent investments ,in a systematic manner ,by the developer ,or the Managment company, since Managment purchased 12x50 units and since there Is no HOA which can represent the individual owner, the are doing what ever the want to do in there intrest ,not the original owners intrest





charter, and now control with this mechanisem


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## KathyPet (Oct 24, 2011)

So basically you are angry with Marriott because they are continuing to build more time shares under a different ownership arrangement then the original timeshares and they have refused to assist you in selling your timeshare which they originally told you they would do.

All I can say is Welcome to the wonderful world of Marriott where you cannot rely on anything they tell you unless you have it in writing. Marriott told all of us that they would assist us in selling our units when we were ready to sell and now since they are selling points instead of weeks they are doing absolutely nothing to assist current owners who want to sell.

When we bought Marriott Manor Club in 1994 we bought a 2 bedroom non-lock off unit with all the useless Marriott promises including the statement that they would help us when we wanted to sell.  As soon as they finished the original Manor Club they started building the sequel section which are two bedrooms lock offs.  The value of my unit immediately plunged since who would want to buy in the original section when they could get a lock off unit and get two weeks to use.

Now they are selling points and not interested in selling resale units and helping their original owners at all.  You are just as stuck as the rest of us and will end up unloading your unit at a fraction of what you paid for it.


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## Lets have less Greed (Oct 25, 2011)

It's like you purchased an apple stock at the outset of the company , and now when the stock is prime, the just take the company private , and the are not giving you the fair market value for your stocks but what ever the want to give, in Thailand the call this investors fraud or??? The are creating obstacles on purpose so foreign owner default , because there is uncertainty , where the issue can be handelt US or Thailand or Europe ?


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## MALC9990 (Oct 25, 2011)

Phuket Beach Club Owner said:


> Let me give you the story about in what direction the Phuket beach club is going.
> 
> I purchased 6 weeks ofthis exeptional units in 2000 this Timeshare is connected with the JW Marriott, indeed this resort is well managed and is 100% sold out .At time of purschase I was advised due to the Thai property ownership law , that this " timeshare" was a membership so to comply with the law of the land.I received documents that this resort will have a HOA and be managed like a timeshare , We where aswell advised that the units can aswell be resold by Marriott , once  all original units are sold out, at however a25% fee.No issue with this ( since selling a timeshare in Thailand demands a different approach than in the USA )
> 
> ...



I would not normally respond to a post on TUG as vigorously as this but as a Platinum weeks owner at Phuket Beach Club I have to challenge the OP on several points.

1. No HOA.  Since the resort is a Right To Use resort - there are no Owners - hence there is no HOA. There is an Advisory Committee of members which is comprised of owners of the RTU weeks at the resort. This is the same as at the 4 MVCI resorts in Europe which are also RTU resorts. 

The Charter of Phuket Beach Club Document defines the Rights and Duties of the members. One of these is a right to elect or to be elected or appointed a Committee Member of the Club subject to the procedures set out in Clause 12 of the Charter.
The following is also taken from the Charter:
The Advisory Committee is responsible for representing the views of the Members of the Club concerning the management and operation of the Resort and the Club and is entitled to certain notifications by Club Manager. The Committee’s role will be primarily consultative and advisory. For the avoidance of doubt, all decisions concerning the management and operations of the Resort and the Club belong to the Club Manager who must exercise its reasonable business judgment so as to promote the overall benefit and enjoyment of Members. Committee members may NOT be Employees or relatives of employees of affiliates of Marriott International

So please do not confuse TUG members who are owners at MVCI resorts in the USA where they do indeed own a piece of the property and hold deeds to that effect and where there will be an HOA with powers which the Advisory Committee at a Right to Use resort such as Phuket Beach Club does not have nor ever can have.

When you purchased your Club Membership(s) you signed the Club membership Application and Agreement and will have been provided a copy of the Legal Documents which clearly state what you were buying into, did you read these - if not then you really should have done at the time before signing up.

2. Marriott did not build the adjacent Mai Khao Beach Club - this was developed by a subsidiary of The Minor Group (who also own the JW Marriott and Anantara hotels on this site - not to mention the shopping mall development on Site - Turtle Village. When Mai Khao Beach Club was approaching completion, MVCIAP bought this from Minor International.

3. If you review you original documents from your purchase from MVCI you will find no promises of resale - if made these were verbal promises made at the time of the presentation by sales staff - they have no legal standing and if you think your weeks have anything like the original cost as the selling price today then you will never sell your weeks. A Right To Use Timeshare week is not a financial investment. You purchased the Right to Use your week(s) for a period of time and you have that right still. Check your agreement documents - they are titled "CLUB MEMBERSHIP APPLICATION AND AGREEMENT". So you (like me) purchased the right to use the accommodations and facilities of Marriott's Phuket Beach Club Resort until the last day of the year 2081. After that date all your Club Membership rights and benefits are null and void.

So you should re-read your documents and understand that you did not but any property just a Club Membership with rights to use the facilities until a specific date (31st Dec 2081).

4. That MVCIAP is the single biggest owner of RTU weeks at Phuket Beach Club is unfortunate for the other owners since that gives MVCIAP significant voting power at the Advisory Board elections but that is their legal right as members of the Club. Personally I would prefer to see the members of the MVCI Asia Pacific Club deciding how MVCIAP uses its votes through the Advisory Board of the MVCIAP members.


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## MALC9990 (Oct 25, 2011)

KathyPet said:


> So basically you are angry with Marriott because they are continuing to build more time shares under a different ownership arrangement then the original timeshares and they have refused to assist you in selling your timeshare which they originally told you they would do.
> 
> All I can say is Welcome to the wonderful world of Marriott where you cannot rely on anything they tell you unless you have it in writing. Marriott told all of us that they would assist us in selling our units when we were ready to sell and now since they are selling points instead of weeks they are doing absolutely nothing to assist current owners who want to sell.
> 
> ...



Please note MVCI are not continuing to build at Phuket Beach Club nor near by. The MVCIAP resort (Mai Khao Beach Club) was a separate development acquired after completion by MVCIAP and is not a weeks based timeshare. It is only available to MVCIAP points club members and to Interval International members through Exchange and Getaway. It is an entirely separate resort which does indeed share some facilities with the JW Marriott Phuket Resort & Spa Hotel - namely the facility to use the Hotel's restaurants and charge the costs to their Mai Khao Beach Club account. All other facilities are totally separate and not available e.g JW Marriott pools are not available to Mai Khao Beach Club guests.

The MVCI Asia Pacific Points Club (of which I am a member) came into being for the simple reason that TS weeks do not sell well in Asia. Taking a whole week of vacation in Asia is unusual and the MVCIAP points system was introduced to address that issue.

The flexibility it has introduced to my weeks ownership at Phuket Beach Club is very welcome and I use it extensively each year. This flexibility is similar to but (IMHO) superior to that which the DC has introduced into the USA resort of MVCI. The points overlay programme allows me to exchange one of more of my weeks membership at Phuket Beach Club for MVCIAP points equivalent to my week's ownership (with NO SKIM). Those overlay points may then be used to reserve time at MVCIAP resorts with no exchange fee or at selected Marriott Hotels without the need to use Marriott Reward Points. These hotel reservations then count as a Paid Stay for my Elite Nights accrual through the year.


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## Lets have less Greed (Oct 26, 2011)

*This are the facts*

MLAC 9990 indeed interesting your reply , this however still does not change the fact that, if this is not corrected very soon,     a Fraud is committed 

.What is been done could not be done in the USA , and can only be done in Thailand because no one has challened this in Thailand yet.

If you do the "Duck Test" if it walks like a duck, if it looks like a duck and if it squawks like a Duck , its a duck, apply this to Membership/ timeshare , it's a timeshare. ( the membership method was used because in 2000 it was not possible to own property in Thailand / it now has changed I understand.

Think about this, you Purschase Apple stocks at the initial time the company was formed, and now Apple wants to take the company private, when your investment has primed, Apple, than creates a Sting ! Where you can not cash in on your investment at a fair market value as promised.

I do have a document which called for a HOA , when I purschased. There was always the intention to have a body , which is elected to represent the intrest of the investors, just creating mysteriously an Advisory commitee wit NoNo powers says it all.

The charter, which I have, clearly states that no Block Sale is permitted "than  Asia Pacic points Purschase a block"" think deep deep deep.

Phuket beach club has a demand for buyers to Purschase weeks, however the adjacent Mai Kao has challenges .

It serves little purpose to go in to the details of this Sting , in this Forum.

What is been done now , if not corrected soon is Fraud, As Mr Marriott says if it has the appearance of been not ethical it should not be done.

MLCA 0990 you are aware of some detail, which even present members of the advisory commitee are in the dark.

It points down to , should an investor have a right, to get the gains of once investment!!!!!!

 let us be clear the Phuket beach Club can not be placed in the same pot as many other timeshare investments, it is out of the box, I am certain if MVCI
 would do the promised resale at the Phuket Beach club, the resale value 
Attained would even be higher for a platinum plus, than the Asia pacific would cost , for a like product


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## bogey21 (Oct 26, 2011)

*Sounds like an old fashioned Bait and Switch??*


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## MALC9990 (Oct 26, 2011)

bogey21 said:


> *Sounds like an old fashioned Bait and Switch??*



Don't get confused - Nothing like that at all.

The following is the wording of the TITLE of the document I signed when I purchased at Phuket Beach Club in Feb 2005.

"CLUB MEMBERSHIP APPLICATION AND AGREEMENT"

It was quite clear at the time of purchase that what was being sold was a RIGHT TO USE Resort membership. I have the right to use my Floating weeks at Phuket beach Club until the last day of December 2081. Even in the Glossary of Terms in the Legal Document Pack given to all purchasers when buying there is the following:

"Club Dues" or "Maintenance Fees" means the amount due from each *Member*, on an annual or other periodic basis for the purpose of maintenance and operation of the Resort and the Club in accordance with MVCI Brand Standards.

So Phuket Beach Club was sold as an RTU resort and thus is no different to all of the 4 MVCI resorts in Europe.

It seems clear to me that the OP purchased his weeks at Phuket beach Club under the misapprehension that he was making a financial investment that would appreciate in value over time. Since what he bought was only Right to Use that expires on 31st Dec 2081 he clearly did not buy any property. I cannot imagine any TUG member thinking that their TS weeks would be a financial investment that would appreciate in value. Maybe in their early pre-TUG membership days they might have felt that might be the case. 

In my case I never expected any sort of increase in financial value of my weeks at any of my resorts - all of which are RTU. I might not be total enamored of the level to which resale prices have fallen at my Marriott Resorts in Europe and Thailand but they do seem to be holding some value which is not necessarily the case of some Marriott resorts in the USA and Caribbean.


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## bogey21 (Oct 26, 2011)

OP says he was given a document at time of purchase that said "this resort will have a HOA and be managed like a timeshare".  Either he was given such a document or he wasn't.  If he was, it was a "Bait and Switch".  If not, it was not.  It is that simple.  OP says he bought in 2000.  MALC9990 says he purchased in 2005.  Is it possible that the documentation changed between 2000 and 2005?

George


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## MALC9990 (Oct 26, 2011)

Phuket Beach Club Owner said:


> MLAC 9990 indeed interesting your reply , this however still does not change the fact that, if this is not corrected very soon,     a Fraud is committed
> 
> .What is been done could not be done in the USA , and can only be done in Thailand because no one has challened this in Thailand yet.
> 
> ...



I am sorry that you feel that there has been some sort of investment fraud or whatever but to me it is clear as to what I purchased at PBC. Nowhere in the legal documents does there appear any reference to "Investment" or "Property". Everywhere I look I see references to the purchase of a Club Membership and the Right to use my weeks at the resort until a specified date. If I fail to pay my MFs (Club Dues) then I am in default and ultimately I lose my membership.

You feel that you purchased a financial investment that ultimately you should be able to sell and make a profit. Since you could not do that on any timeshare week purchased at any resort in the USA where you actually do get a "deed" to your piece of the property I fail to see how you could ever imagine that you would achieve that when buying only a Club Membership at Phuket Beach Club which gives you the Right to Use your week(s) until a specified end date.

I am certainly not happy at the resale prices for Phuket Beach Club weeks and I would not expect any assistance from MVCI in selling my weeks. However I am not looking to sell and did not enter into my club membership with a view to it being a financial investment that would grow in financial terms that would make a profit on resale.

Comparing buying a RTU Club Membership at PBC to buying Apple stock is patently fallacious and simply illustrates that you did not understand what you were buying at the time. My advice would be to enjoy the weeks that you have at PBC - it is my oppinion the very best MVCI resort globally.

So I would say again that you should carefully read the agreement documents that you signed and the Legal Documents Pack that you were given at the time. I have spent the last day carefully reading all my documents received at the time of purchase and I can see nothing at all that supports your argument that MVCI perpetrated a fraud in selling weeks at Phuket Beach Club. Nor do I see anything that would have prevented the transfer of the block of unsold inventory from MVCI to MVCIAP when the Asia Pacific Club was set up.

I should also point out that MVCIAP also has weeks at several other MVCI resorts in Hawaii and Las Vegas as well as their own wholly owned resort at Mai Khao Beach Club in Phuket.


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## Lets have less Greed (Oct 26, 2011)

First of all I do have a document which calls for an HOA.

However let me get to the point MLCA0990 is trying to avoid.

Would this have been possible in the USA NO NO NO , you do not do somthing like this in a Foreign country and hope poeple are quiet, since it an uphill battle to challenge this perhaps in a foreign country.

Let's look at the Duck test, the fraud is been committed , to assist the Mai Kao 
Asia Pacific Club, !!!

There are golf club memberships which can be sold at a fair value , and there are 
memberships which can not be sold, this is a membership /timeshare 
which was offert at been able to resold , even with the recommendation that it 
should be done by MvCI at a25% commission

I have no reason to give falls statements in reference to having a HOA document   

Based on what law in Thailand is the sale of a timeshare / membership fashioned , while I am aware true reattach that I am perhaps one of 500 to have such a document , even if I would not have this one can not defraud others, it's an investment , which can go south or north , but no one has the right to place hurdles in the way and create an environment so the investment goes sour MALC 990 , look at the big picture , and the spirit.in Phuket the investors have no voice due to what has been created and for many the do not want to fight and just walk away silently. I am certain this couldn't be done in the USA and what is good for the Goose/ USA is good for doing buisness in Thailand the Gander


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## MALC9990 (Oct 27, 2011)

Phuket Beach Club Owner said:


> First of all I do have a document which calls for an HOA.
> 
> However let me get to the point MLCA0990 is trying to avoid.
> 
> ...



So let us agree that your documents differ to mine. In my Legal documents pack the term Committee is defined as the appointed representative body of members responsible for giving advice to the Club Manager on certain matters described in the Charter relating to managing the affairs of the Club and/or Resort.

The Charter describes at length the rights and responsibilities of the members ( note no reference to owners). Club Members have the right to elect and be elected a member of the Committee subject to the election procedures which are also described in the Charter.

I would be interested to see how your document defines HOA - what do the letters stand for, what are the roles and responsibilities defined for the "HOA" members?


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## bogey21 (Oct 27, 2011)

KathyPet said:


> So basically you are angry with Marriott because they are continuing to build more time shares under a different ownership arrangement then the original timeshares and they have refused to assist you in selling your timeshare which they originally told you they would do.
> 
> All I can say is Welcome to the wonderful world of Marriott where you cannot rely on anything they tell you unless you have it in writing. Marriott told all of us that they would assist us in selling our units when we were ready to sell and now since they are selling points instead of weeks they are doing absolutely nothing to assist current owners who want to sell.



So what else in new.  When I bought my first Marriott, Sabal Palms pre-construction, they aggressively sold the benefits of their rental and resale programs.  I used both extensively and they worked very well for a number of years.  As time went on Marriott decided it was in their best interest to change these programs to the detriment of their Owners.  When they did this I decided I couldn't trust Marriott any longer and sold all 5 of my Marriott Weeks.  The writing was on the wall.  Marriott was more interested in their bottom line than their customers satisfication.  What is going on now is just a continuation of their Marriott first, Owner last policies.

George


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## tschwa2 (Oct 27, 2011)

What do you think the HOA would do for you?  What approach does selling a timeshare in Thialand require that is so different than in the US?

There are 100,000's of TS that were sold in the US by developers for $20,000-$100,000 that owners can't sell for $1.00.  Having an HOA hasn't stopped that at 99.99% of the resorts.


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## MALC9990 (Oct 27, 2011)

Assuming that the letters HOA stand for what appears to be the accepted meaning in the USA - i.e. Home Owners Association then at Phuket Beach Club there can be no HOA since there are no Home Owners. I understand that at most if not all USA located Marriott Timeshare resorts each week owner has a deed and is indeed an owner of a fractional ownership of the property and has a deed to that portion of the property and is also required to pay the equivalent share of the local property tax annually.

At Phuket Beach Club there are no home owners. The property remains in the ownership of the Marriott affiliate company in Thailand. The members of the club have the right to use their weeks according to the rules and regulations that govern the resorts operation and management.

Now if the meaning of HOA is in fact Holiday Owners Association then the term HOA could be used to describe the Advisory Committee that is in place at Phuket Beach Club. The members of this committee must be members of the club and are elected by all those members who choose to exercise their vote in the elections.


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## bogey21 (Oct 27, 2011)

Phuket Beach Club Owner said:


> First of all I do have a document which calls for an HOA.



Why do we ignore what this guy says.  He says he bought in 2000 and was given a document which described a HOA and said the Resort would be run like a TimeShare.  If he was given such a document, Marriott is screwing him.  If not, he is full of crap.  It is one or the other.

George


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## MALC9990 (Oct 27, 2011)

bogey21 said:


> Why do we ignore what this guy says.  He says he bought in 2000 and was given a document which described a HOA and said the Resort would be run like a TimeShare.  If he was given such a document, Marriott is screwing him.  If not, he is full of crap.  It is one or the other.
> 
> George



You make the assumption that there is only one Timeshare Model - that being the American one of deeded weeks where property is owned.In actual fact that is a model that exists predominately in the USA. In Europe and in many other countries the Right to Use is an equally valid Timeshare Model.

So as an owner at Phuket Beach Club - it is a Timeshare - a Right to Use Timeshare. If, as I have asked, the term HOA is understood by the OP to be a Home Owners Association it patently cannot exist as there are No Home Owners. If it means Holiday Owners Association then it does exist already.

The main issue however seems to be that the price at which the OP can sell his weeks at present is far less than he paid for them -- well all I can say is welcome to the club that every single timeshare owner who paid developer prices is in.

If the OP thinks there is a case of fraud then he needs to go to court - in Thailand and I wish him luck - he will need it.


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## KathyPet (Oct 27, 2011)

Yes,  the issue with the existence on non-existence of a homeowners association does appear to be of lesser importance to the OP then the statement that Marriott will not help him sell his unit (s).  As I said:  Welcome to my world!.  Many of us had verbal representations from our sales people that Marriott would assist us when we wanted to sell our units.  Nothing in writing of course!  Now the OP can join the rest of us who are stuck with units that we paid way to much for that we cannot get rid of.


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## MALC9990 (Oct 28, 2011)

KathyPet said:


> Yes,  the issue with the existence on non-existence of a homeowners association does appear to be of lesser importance to the OP then the statement that Marriott will not help him sell his unit (s).  As I said:  Welcome to my world!.  Many of us had verbal representations from our sales people that Marriott would assist us when we wanted to sell our units.  Nothing in writing of course!  Now the OP can join the rest of us who are stuck with units that we paid way to much for that we cannot get rid of.



I totally agree and compared with TS units in the USA, Phuket Beach Club and the 3 MVCI resorts in Spain do retain some semblance of value as far as retail price is concerned. At Marriott Son Antem in Majorca, Playa Andaluz and Marbella Beach Club prime weeks will still sell for £5000 or more - so around $7500.  Paris is less buoyant perhaps. At Son Antem, Gold, Gold Holiday and Platinum weeks - which cover the good summer weather season from May through to October will sell at those prices - Silver season weeks are less Essy to sell and go for around £2500 or $3750. It is always difficult to tie down actual selling prices. EBAY is not a major marketplace in Europe for selling timeshares. If you look at EBAY you find most TS sales are by the resale agents and brokers who seem to use EBAY as a way of advertising their existence to a wider audience. 

I myself used EBAY to track down my first resale purchase but when I established contact the purchase was processed outside EBAY. The agency uses an independent Bank service to handle escrow and has an in house legal team who deal with the transfer of ownership. 

Prices at Phuket Beach Club are also in the same range. PBC only has two season Gold and Plat with a small number of Plat Plus fixed weeks (week 52). Gold weeks are less attractive to buy since they cover the wet season in Thailand from May thru to early October and as many will have seen on the News programmes, this year has been an exceptionally wet season. Phuket has suffered much less than the north of Thailand and Bangkok but we were in Bangkok and then Phuket in September and is was really wet most days.

My experience of the advisory board in Son Antem and the members committee in Phuket is that they do a very good job considering the constraints within which they must work. 

I understand that the OP purchased 6 weeks off plan prior to the start of construction and I am sure that there were all the usual verbal statements about resales and rental values with nothing in writing. I experienced much of that as well but it was not of interest as I was buying to use and not as an investment.

The introduction of the MVCI Asia Pacific points programme was a clear business model change driven by falling sales. prior to the introduction of MVCIAP sales at Phuket Beach Club had been heavily dominated by purchasers from Europe, USA, Australia and expatriate westerners living in Singapore, Malaysia and Hong Kong. Sales to Asian nationals were very slow. This was pretty obvious when you were at the resort - the European and American faces and voices were predominant. Asians were not enthusiastic about the standard weeks model of timeshare. Shorter weekend break type vacations are much more normal and as the sales to existing buyers fell so a new model was required. Sales were mostly to guests at the JW or Interval exchangers staying at the resort. Now you see a much greater diversity of members at PBC and Mai Khao Beach Club with a strong growth from Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan, India, Mainland China etc.

Compared with the West, Asian economies continue to grow with with growth rates of 7 and 8 percent per year. Marriott's new focus in Asia on the local market for sales has been pretty successful and I think that as owners we should accept that for the benefit it brings since it helps ensure the success of the resorts.


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## bogey21 (Oct 28, 2011)

KathyPet said:


> As I said:  Welcome to my world!.  Many of us had verbal representations from our sales people that Marriott would assist us when we wanted to sell our units.  Nothing in writing of course!  Now the OP can join the rest of us who are stuck with units that we paid way to much for that we cannot get rid of.



As I have previously posted on TUG, I also was promised specific Sales and Rental Programs when I bought my Weeks from Marriott way back when they were first getting into the TimeShare business.  Everything went well for more than 5 years.  When Marriott started messing with these programs to the detriment of us Owners, I sold, profitably I might add.  My philosophy is that when a Partner (and I considered Marriott a Partner) goes back on its word I sever all relationships with that Partner as quickly and economically as possible. 

George


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## Lets have less Greed (Oct 28, 2011)

*However you take it, it's fraud to debrive investors to gain aswell*

It can not be permissible , that the Thai Sponsor or MVCI Asia Pacific, places hurdles in the way so investors can not resale as promised, in a way to attain the fair market value.
Only  a promised resale on property in Thailand  can attain a fair market price. Since MVCI Asia club points units ,for the adjacent Mai Kao beach Club ( which are sold at the Phuket Beach club JW Marriott)  ,   are by far not as attractive for various reason, as the quintessential Phuket beach Club, the Phuket Beach Club would therefore yield a much much higher resales price than MLCA09990 writes.

THE STING, since it becomes very burden some ,due to the hurdles created by MVCI or the Sponsor Minor international, to resale in a foreign country ,and since Asian and Europeans do not trust  the "Shark Timeshare market" , owners default, to stop having to pay the maintenance fee  which has grown by %260 in the last 8 years.


However  this "vacant"units are  no big concern for the Sponsor, he "rents" the units to the hotel ,  since aswell the sponsor has the first right of refusal, if a resale comes from the Shark or so market, the Sponsor is in control and soon controlls the votes for the next phase in  the Anantara/ Marriott phase.

Creating an environment, by design ,which debriefs an investor to cash in on a gain is fraud.

MVCI Asia pacific points, purchased against the charter from the Phuket Beach club a inventory ablock of 12x50 units , to serve as a baid or lead horse for the Asia pacific points program , to drives sales for the not so popular adjacent Mai Kao Beach units, if the promised resale of the Phuket beach club units at the Phuket Beach Club/JW would be done ,this indeed would but a tend in the Asia Pacific points/ Mai Kao beach sales , and the Phuket beach Club / JW units would preferred and attain a much higher price , The demand 
is there, for Phuket Beach week units, it is just surpressed 

We aswell believe the merging with the Asia point program with the Phuket beach club/JW devalues the units at the Phuket Beach Club since this unique club- ,atmosphere, ambience , panache, club feel slowly DELUTE .

A  HOA as promised in our documents  , with some authority would insure that the intrest of the Phuket Beach Club owners/members would be represented and the could demand a promised resale on property, after all all owner would benefit 

A timeshare / membership concept connect with a fine Hotel as the JW in a low labour cost country , with  gracious Thai hospitality ,brings tremendous financial benefits for the Sponsor and operator ,  therefore let  greed not rule and take away from the owners/members , who trusted the Sponsor and the operator by investing even before the units where build.
Phuket Beach Club has demand ( Asia is big with  an exceptional strong feeder market, be it Hongkong, Singapore,Tokio , Seoul,and and and and not to forget the Expat market which aswell desires such a product)) Phuket Beach Club is not in a like wise situation as the USA.

I kindly ask the key principles at MVCI and the Sponsor to look at there approach, before this comes to an " explosion" if this is an act by lower 
principles correct it but silence can only mean agreement to committed fraud against the owners/members who want to sell.
likewise situation as many resorts in the USA


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## KathyPet (Oct 28, 2011)

All of the sold out Marriott resorts here in the US have Homeowners Associations.  THey are in charge of running the resorts in a manner to benefit the owners and to act in a responsible financial manner as far as the budget of the Homeowners Association.  THey have absolutely nothing to do with whatever promises Marriott made concerning assisting current owners with resales or forcing Marriott to honor whatever promises they may have made concerning that assistance.    You are barking up the wrong tree if you think that having a Homeowners Association is in any way going to assist you with resales.  If that was the case then believe me the Marriott Homeowners Associations here the US would be being besieged by their owners asking for assistance.


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## Lets have less Greed (Oct 28, 2011)

*It's not just about a promise, it about right and wrong*

Aloha Katy , with your statement you are not that wrong , we are not barking up this stream , however with a association which has authority MVCI and the SPONSOR could not be that autocratic , We do not think it's  just about a promise , we think it's about ethics, fair dealings,.

If you have an employment contract , and the contract has provisions , which only benefits the employer and  are even not compatible with the law of the land ,there is a remedy , likewise with a timeshare, doing something like this in Thailand where there is no defined law is taking it to to far.  YES ,THIS DEMANDS TAKING THE BULL BY THE HORN


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## KathyPet (Oct 29, 2011)

Marriott is a business and they are in business to make money.  They could care less about ethics or any type of moral responsibility that you think they might have to their MVCI owners.  They did not promise you or anyone else in writing that they would help you sell your timeshare unit or promise you or anyone else in writing that the value of your unit would increase.  Anything you were told during the course of your purchase process that is not in writing is just a lot of hot air.  You can certainly attempt to sue them or take any other legal action you think is necessary but you are wasting your money.  You are in the same boat as the rest of us so you either need to keep your unit or bite the bullet and attempt to sell it on your own for whatever you think you can get for it.  By the way I do have my MMC unit on some sort of a wait list that Marriott supposedly keeps of owners who are interested in selling.  I have been on the "wait list" for almost three years now and I expect to still be on it when I die.


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## MALC9990 (Oct 29, 2011)

KathyPet said:


> All of the sold out Marriott resorts here in the US have Homeowners Associations.  THey are in charge of running the resorts in a manner to benefit the owners and to act in a responsible financial manner as far as the budget of the Homeowners Association.  THey have absolutely nothing to do with whatever promises Marriott made concerning assisting current owners with resales or forcing Marriott to honor whatever promises they may have made concerning that assistance.    You are barking up the wrong tree if you think that having a Homeowners Association is in any way going to assist you with resales.  If that was the case then believe me the Marriott Homeowners Associations here the US would be being besieged by their owners asking for assistance.



A Home Owners Association cannot exist at PBC - there are no Home Owners. PBC is a Right To Use resort - buyers of weeks got the Right to Use the Resort until 31st Dec 2081. There is an Advisory Committee of Members.


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## bogey21 (Oct 29, 2011)

KathyPet said:


> They did not promise you or anyone else in writing that they would help you sell your timeshare unit or promise you or anyone else in writing that the value of your unit would increase.



I'm not sure this statement is correct.  I am long gone from Marriott but I originally bought pre-construction at Sabal Palms, the first TS built by Marriott.  I later bought pre-construction at Harbour Club and Heritage Club on HHI.  My recollection is that at one point or another I received written info regarding their Rental and Resale Programs.  My recollection is also that this documentation explained how Marriott would set (fix) the prices on resales.  I could be wrong.  It was a long time ago.  What I do know is that the one Week (Sabal Palms) that  I sold through the original Marriott Resale Program was at a price higher than I paid for the Week.  

George


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## abdibile (Oct 29, 2011)

Phuket Beach Club Owner, why are you repeating the same arguemtns in long post over and over again without listening to what helpful TUG members are saying?

You do not own anything that went up in value. You where sold a right and most of the moeny you paid went into marketing and sales. This money is gone forever.

The true market value of a Platinum Phuket Beach Club week is around $3,500 which is what they sold for on eBay this year.

I am sure you can sell one for more money if you wait outside the sales center at the resort and talk to people who just had their timeshare presentation. If you do not do it too obviously, no one will stop you from trying to go this path.

I am sure the really expensive Asia Pacific Points Club helps you getting  a higher price as people will compare your asking price with what a week would cost them through the Points Club.

Why should Marriott sell your week for a comission if they can sell the points club for much more profit?

This is a free market and you are free to try to sell your week at any price you can get! But you can not expect someone to help you by hard-selling it to holidaymakers. If Marriott is able to get way more from new owners than cost to build they are creating value through a great resort surrounding, management, psoitive holiday feelings and hard-selling tactics the benefit from this value creation should only go to Marriott.

This is like Apple getting more from buyers than it costs them to build an iPhone. You can not expect that they help you sell your old iPhone to new buyers.

Go try to do it yourself!


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## SueDonJ (Oct 29, 2011)

I think the OP genuinely believes that s/he has paperwork to back up her/his claims that Marriott guaranteed a certain value of and resale mechanism for his/her timeshare, as well as a governance board at the resort that is not what's in place now.  Does it really matter if nobody else believes any of that, or if other owners of his/her resort say that they do not have the same paperwork?  Overall, I don't think it matters one bit, because nobody here can do anything to force Marriott to respond to his/her claims.

What will matter is whether or not the OP does have something in writing from Marriott that can be enforced regardless of Marriott's statements to the contrary, and generally that means that a qualified legal expert will need to be engaged to make it happen.  OP, find a qualified attorney and ask him/her to review your paperwork and then follow the guidance you receive, which should be either, "yes, you have a case against Marriott, if you hire me I'll start by writing a letter to their legal department," or, "no, sorry, you don't have anything in writing to support your claim so it's useless to waste your money trying to fight Marriott's stance."  If you do find any attorney willing to take your case based on its merits and NOT on the attorney's desire to line his pockets with money you're wasting in a futile effort, that's the time to post on the internet in an effort to encourage other owners to join you in a class action suit.


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## Lets have less Greed (Oct 29, 2011)

*SueDon1 makes a good point*

SueDon 1 make's indeed valid points

The issue is most likey not with Marriott , but with the Sponsor MaiKao Vacation Villas,,, MVCI trough a Thai subsidiary was only the Appointed Sales Agent ,through another subsidiary MVCI Europe was the operator of the Phuket Beach Club. My papers are with MaiKao Vacation villas /part ofMinor international. MVCI Europe is aware of some document  issues with the first owners , however even the later owners need to be treaded fair.it was originally a key selling point the potential asset growth , Yes ther where risks, THE ASSET VALUE HAS GROWN AND IS EXCELLENT ( remember Hawaii was going at 48 000 and Phuket at 25000 with a then much lower Maitenance than other resorts in 2000' however the unauthorized not needed block sale to Asia Pacific points , has caused ceasing of the plan to do a resale at the phuket Beach Club. 
This was told to many by not just sales members but senior 
Poeple, this over period of 5 years ( of Yes I could sell the units with a sandwich board in the Lobby however with Asia Pacif points in the lobby as well it would be a mess, and than comes the first right of refusal by the Sponsor

The Asset value "and the maintenance cost is up"however there are significant hurdles implemented so there can only be one winner, and that's the STING

Yes my tread is lengthy ,one however has to read the full details 

I do not complain about this resort , this is a superb resort , I am preparing for the next step ,this forum has giving me some god points and some points which are perhaps driven by other motives or Spins.

Now since the Thai law has changed MVCIASIA PACIFIC owns now the not so popular resort.through this subsidiary the purschased ,against the charter a block was purschased at the Phuket Beach Club ( we are almost certain the Thai sponsor minor is still the owner of the Phuket Beach Club Realestate


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## Lets have less Greed (Oct 29, 2011)

*SueDon1 makes a good point*

SueDon 1 make's indeed valid points

The issue is most likey not with Marriott , but with the Sponsor MaiKao Vacation Villas,,, MVCI trough a Thai subsidiary was only the Appointed Sales Agent ,through another subsidiary MVCI Europe was the operator of the Phuket Beach Club. My papers are with MaiKao Vacation villas /part ofMinor international. MVCI Europe is aware of some document  issues with the first owners , however even the later owners need to be treaded fair.it was originally a key selling point the potential asset growth , Yes ther where risks, THE ASSET VALUE HAS GROWN AND IS EXCELLENT ( remember Hawaii was going at 48 000 and Phuket at 25000 with a then much lower Maitenance than other resorts in 2000' however the unauthorized not needed block sale to Asia Pacific points , has caused ceasing of the plan to do a resale at the phuket Beach Club. 
This was told to many by not just sales members but senior 
Poeple, this over period of 5 years ( of Yes I could sell the units with a sandwich board in the Lobby however with Asia Pacif points in the lobby as well it would be a mess, and than comes the first right of refusal by the Sponsor

The Asset value "and the maintenance cost is up"however there are significant hurdles implemented so there can only be one winner, and that's the STING

Yes my tread is lengthy ,one however has to read the full details 

I do not complain about this resort , this is a superb resort , I am preparing for the next step ,this forum has giving me some god points and some points which are perhaps driven by other motives or Spins.

Now since the Thai law has changed MVCIASIA PACIFIC owns now the not so popular resort.through this subsidiary the purschased ,against the charter a block was purschased at the Phuket Beach Club ( we are almost certain the Thai sponsor minor is still the owner of the Phuket Beach Club Realestate


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## fizzysoup (Nov 9, 2011)

*Legal Documents & Value of Resale Weeks*



Phuket Beach Club Owner said:


> MLCA 0990 you are aware of some detail, which even present members of the advisory commitee are in the dark.



I am not sure I should wade in here, however as a current member of the PBC Advisory Board I think the above quote is a little harsh.

I agree that MALC9990 is more informed than most, if not all regarding the detail of his own timeshare purchases, and indeed the specific scenarios pertaining to PBC/MKB/MVCAP

As you know I am familiar with some details specific to this case.

I understand that possibly 500 individuals purchased a week or weeks at PBC between 2000 & the end of 2002! I also understand that the initial Legal Documents are different from those in existence for the majority of owners. My own Legal Documents which contain 'The Charter' of the PBC is dated as follows:- Revised January 31st 2003, so by inference there appears to have been an earlier version. 

However the PBC Advisory Board was set up in late 2003 & had its inaugural meeting in early 2004, and was guided by the current set of 'Legal Documents'

I believe an earlier version of 'Legal Documents' may have contained an Exhibit E entitled "Charter of Phuket Beach Club Association", whereas my version simply states "Charter Phuket Beach Club" & Chapter I under 'General Provisions' has 3 paragraphs.

The earlier version appears to also have 3 paragraphs, but under paragraph 3 there are 6 sub paragraphs (3.1 to 3.6) which would appear to give the 'Association' much more power than exists today, including budgetary approval rights!

The caveat appears to be that this 'original' Charter was never legally enacted.

I am afraid that I cannot add further to this and it is up to the OP (original poster) to pursue this (presumably with a group of people who have similar documents - thus a 'class action') and take the good advice offered by SueDonJ

From a legal perspective I would expect that the documents which one receives on signing a contract are still legal & binding, even if a new/different situation emerges a year or two later! 

Regarding the value of resale weeks, I think it is fair to say that resale weeks can rarely if ever achieve the dollar value one purchases them from the developer for, and certainly not in the current timeshare climate.

A week bought at PBC during the Phase I period where there was no week 51/52 lock out, is not and never will equate with the price that one pays today for a guaranteed vacation during week 51 or week 52. Such a Phase I purchase could enable you to use your week during 51 & 52, but it is a 'bun fight' to get that period and is by no means guaranteed. 

The real 'ball park' value of these weeks can be gleaned from a look at "Market Place" in this very forum.

I trust this is helpful.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 9, 2011)

fizzysoup said:


> I am not sure I should wade in here, however  as a current member of the PBC Advisory Board...
> 
> I trust this is helpful.



Without getting into any of the specifics of this thread, I think it's great that you're participating on TUG despite being a member of one of the timeshare governing boards.  I imagine it's difficult to have to limit what you can say in a public setting so as not to violate any legal restrictions of a board position.  Thank you for contributing in whatever capacity you can.

TUGger Minoter (BeachPlace Towers board member) has been a welcome and valuable contributor to TUG, and now you've made the effort.  I wish more board members would consider doing the same.


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## MALC9990 (Nov 9, 2011)

fizzysoup said:


> I am not sure I should wade in here, however as a current member of the PBC Advisory Board I think the above quote is a little harsh.
> 
> I agree the MALC9990 is more informed that most if not all regarding the detail of his own timeshare purchases, and indeed the specific scenarios pertaining to PBC/MKB/MVCAP
> 
> ...



Thanks - that has clarified everything that I was not aware of.

This resort IMHO is the BEST in the MVCI stable and is somewhere I hope to vacation every year! It is a long way from the UK but still worth the trip.


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## fizzysoup (Nov 10, 2011)

SueDonJ said:


> Without getting into any of the specifics of this thread, I think it's great that you're participating on TUG despite being a member of one of the timeshare governing boards.  I imagine it's difficult to have to limit what you can say in a public setting so as not to violate any legal restrictions of a board position.  Thank you for contributing in whatever capacity you can.
> 
> TUGger Minoter (BeachPlace Towers board member) has been a welcome and valuable contributor to TUG, and now you've made the effort.  I wish more board members would consider doing the same.



Hi Sue,
Thank you for your comments. Appreciated.

I see no reason why a Marriott Board member would feel reluctant to contribute to this site.

We are all Time Share owners & members of the public, volunteering our time for the greater good.

I got involved four years ago as I wanted to make a difference & I think I have made progress but sometimes it was like  

We are not employed by Marriott & indeed we get very few benefits from being on the Advisory Board.

I see my duty as fully representing the owners (and that incidentally does not include the developer (if they own inventory) who in my opinion, are perfectly capable of representing themselves and their own interests).


In reality it is a 'one way street', but we do what we can to ensure that what is being done is fair and reasonable whilst ensuring that the brand standard that we all initially loved & bought into, remains true.


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## gnorth16 (Nov 11, 2011)

You guys have a place most people dream of getting in a II exchange.  

If you view your timeshare/RTU vacation club as an investment, you will be disappointed.  If you view it as a vacation to a gorgeous place every year, you will never be disappointed.

RTU til 2083!!!  Unless you plan on living past then, enjoy what you have.  Life is too short!


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## fizzysoup (Nov 11, 2011)

gnorth16 said:


> You guys have a place most people dream of getting in a II exchange.
> 
> If you view your timeshare/RTU vacation club as an investment, you will be disappointed.  If you view it as a vacation to a gorgeous place every year, you will never be disappointed.
> 
> RTU til 2083!!!  Unless you plan on living past then, enjoy what you have.  Life is too short!



Couldn't agree more. Sadly I won't last as long as my contract!


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## Asia2000 (Nov 12, 2011)

MALC9990 said:


> A Home Owners Association cannot exist at PBC - there are no Home Owners. PBC is a Right To Use resort - buyers of weeks got the Right to Use the Resort until 31st Dec 2081. There is an Advisory Committee of Members.



An interesting thread full of learning.  It sounds like the OP needs to ask a member of the Advisory Committee of PBC exactly the process that took place in merging MVCI-AP with PBC.  From the posts on this thread, MVCI just went in and bought the existing inventory from PBC, similar to was MVC-USA has done with their trust program and the Destinations Club.

If Marriott builds it, they have a right to buy out the inventory if they choose.  In the end, they gave everyone a chance to buy all of their Marriott PBC weeks, but it just so happened that during the time of a strategy shift (selling points to Asians versus weeks) that a lot of inventory was left on the table.

It appears a Platinum week at PBC sells for at least $15K, which is not bad compared to a tropical resort like Kauai Beach Club where values have slipped further.  You can probably thank the PBC Advisory Committee for managing funds properly to keep the maintenance fees down.  Certainly Kauai Beach Club is older and more expensive to maintain, so I'm not sure it is a fair comparison.  

I think it is evident that a large lawsuit on a timeshare resort will only hurt the resort and the value of those timeshares.  I'm not sure you have any legal representation as you do not own the resort, only a fraction of time at the resort.  Your purchase value has slipped, but I would question if the value of the usage has?  Any owner that has been here since 2000/2001 would probably tell you the resort has improved since initial ownership.   

I'm not sure why Minor sold their investment back to Marriott, but it is interesting to see Minor build their own timeshare operation in the middle of both Marriott MVCI properties.  In the end, it will probably benefit both operations (Marriott and Minor) as it brings more people to an area that was once considered "in the middle of nowhere".


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## Lets have less Greed (Nov 14, 2011)

*It is becoming very intresting, and it is getting to the beef*

The Phuket beach club advisory members  are good poeple and are trying to do the best,  compared to the USA property s have very very limited authority if any .
I have visited the" shell office" in Bangkok of Mai Kao vacation villas , you be surprised.
I have a audit document from PricewaterhouseCoopers  Thailand which audits on be halve of Minor ,the completed entity. ( I have not seen or heard of an audit for the advisrory commitee  on be halve of the members !!!! )
It appears to me Minor is the promised "homeowners association" MVCI the operator and the sales agent has" build "on top of it an advisory commitee , which give the appearance  the are somehow an" homeowner association "

The Phuket beach club is managed superbly for a feeof 15%' by MVCI A homeowners association could prodect the owners interested , what is been done with not permitting the promised resale on property  and with purschasing a block for the Asia pacific points,could be reversed,this would be 
the case in the US.

It appears "by forcing" the owners in to the shady timeshare resale market Minor regains the units , for a minimal fee , since the have the first right of refusal ( many units are "handed  to this to me shady timeshare resale companies in the US ,this stop having to pay the annual fee and an owner gets legally write of there obligations.

There is no 80 year management contract for the JW Marriott and not for MVCI the manager at the Phuket beach club,, its quite possible that via the repurchase units the developer( homeowner association) could shift timeshare Managment to Anantara , this than make the Phuket beach club the anker of the new anantara units,not adjacent to the beach units, more valuable by 
combining them in to one.

What is been done by not permitting the promised resale on property to attain the true fair market price ( yes there could be a sizable resale fee) is wrong wrong wrong and will be corrected


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## MALC9990 (Nov 15, 2011)

Asia2000 said:


> An interesting thread full of learning.  It sounds like the OP needs to ask a member of the Advisory Committee of PBC exactly the process that took place in merging MVCI-AP with PBC.  From the posts on this thread, MVCI just went in and bought the existing inventory from PBC, similar to was MVC-USA has done with their trust program and the Destinations Club.
> 
> If Marriott builds it, they have a right to buy out the inventory if they choose.  In the end, they gave everyone a chance to buy all of their Marriott PBC weeks, but it just so happened that during the time of a strategy shift (selling points to Asians versus weeks) that a lot of inventory was left on the table.
> 
> ...



As you say full of learnings but unfortunately also full of misunderstandings and unreasonable expectations of resale values. I stand by my comment that without home owners how can you have a home owners association.

I don't anticipate any change to the management of the resort, why would Minor want to change the JW to another Anantara when there is one next door with a very different design and price structure. Based on timescales for development I've seen for PBC and MKB I would expect the new Anantara TS resort to take as long as 5 or 6 or even more years to complete development. It will have no beach frontage -the JW and PBC units are between the Anantara TS development site and the beach.

One thing I can see coming is that guests at the JW and PBC will be issued with wrist bands or some other way to control who has access rights to use the JW and PBC facilities. Whilst restrictions are in place now to limit access for MKB guests there is nothing actually done to prevent MKB guests from using the JW pools and other facilities. There will probably have to be steps taken to control access. I would expect that Anantara Vacation Club members (note that this too is a purely points based system with no home resort) would have usage rights to the Anantara Hotel facilities.


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## Lets have less Greed (Nov 15, 2011)

It was and is a timeshare, and was sold as a timeshare , with a charter of a homeowner association which I have a copy.
Is there any other structure identical to this in he Marrioot system? Please so advise?
Remember just because someone says and writes it is so !!! Does not mean that what the law in Thailand permits, some one to do , one/a developer can always test the waters / take a buisness gambel until someone challenges it.


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