# HGV Max - Diamond Integration Discussion in Owner Update



## Eric B

Attended my first Hilton update in NY today (1/16/22) as an all resale owner (thanks for the $250 towards MFs for  30 minutes).  Salesman was pushing trading in my gold 1 BR at The District for a Platinum studio at The Quin for $26K.  Part of the pitch was inclusion of the upcoming HGV Max program for DRI integration.  Rumors only at this point of availability at 6 months to all properties, but no indication of finality.  When I asked what they had in writing, he showed me a copy of an official looking waiver that they've added to new contracts disclosing the name and that it's in planning stages, of note it indicates that no purchase will be required to enroll for a limited period.  Salesman said it would be announced April 1, perhaps not realizing the irony of that date to a sales pitch.


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## chemteach

If this were true, it would not be of much benefit to HGVC owners.  People in The Club in Diamond Resorts can reserve units at 10 months out.  Most of the best weeks are gone by 9 months out.  Although...  The Point at Poipu currently shows LOTS of inventory in March and April 2022, and the Kaanapali Beach Club has decent April inventory.  Nothing available for June July beginning of August.   Perhaps at 6 months there might be some nice resorts/weeks available at Diamond Resorts properties.


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## CalGalTraveler

Thanks for sharing. This sounds vague. Frankly for $26k I could rent a lifetime of Diamond units on Redweek or Hilton.com with zero MF obligation. IMHO...Beyond HGVC there are not many places on the Diamond list that would create usage of $26k for our situation. It would be cheaper to pick up a resale Diamond week.

Did they say that the reason you couldn't automatically participate was because you were resale only? i.e. can people with developer purchases automatically participate?  If they require a developer upgrade, that is a non-starter for us. Especially since we already own a developer unit - that would be totally screwing over anyone who purchased developer unit in the past - and I would not be happy about that.


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## GT75

Thanks for sharing but honestly that waiver does guarantee anything.   In fact, it is just the opposite.     That document is stating that at this time the two products remain separate and there is no assurance that such future benefits may be available.

I believe that @chemteach perspective is also very germane to the rumor that HGV members will have access to DRI at the 6-month mark rumor.     I know that I wouldn't like access to HGV bookings at the 6-month mark.   You would only get the leftovers that no one wanted.


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## Nowaker

More information found on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/637032033898262/ - group https://www.facebook.com/groups/HGVCowners/


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## pedro47

Was this information shared with everyone?


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## Janann

Nowaker said:


> More information found on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/637032033898262/ - group https://www.facebook.com/groups/HGVCowners/



The Facebook groups are private, so we can't see anything without joining the group.


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## Nowaker

Janann said:


> The Facebook groups are private, so we can't see anything without joining the group.


ProTip:


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## Janann

Nowaker said:


> ProTip:
> View attachment 45346


Yes, I know, but I've had "disagreements" in the past with how that group is run.  I was just pointing out that anyone who doesn't have a Facebook account, or doesn't want to join the group, can't see what is posted.


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## CalGalTraveler

I see several HGVC groups on FB. Can someone describe the focus/pros/cons of each group? (I am not a fan of FB and login once in a blue moon, but will lurk if there is value).

The FAQ are interesting. it would be nice to see a description of the program but I guess we will have to wait.


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## ccwu

CalGalTraveler said:


> I see several HGVC groups on FB. Can someone describe the focus/pros/cons of each group? (I am not a fan of FB and login once in a blue moon, but will lurk if there is value).
> 
> The FAQ are interesting. it would be nice to see a description of the program but I guess we will have to wait.



Wait. It is all speculation and sales pitch. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nowaker

CalGalTraveler said:


> I see several HGVC groups on FB. Can someone describe the focus/pros/cons of each group? (I am not a fan of FB and login once in a blue moon, but will lurk if there is value).



https://www.facebook.com/groups/HGVCowners/ - just a general HGVC group, more active than TUG but less technical/knowledgable
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1047361228780071 (Hilton Grand Vacation Club resale bulletin board) - purchases and sales of deeds - but very focused on everything Judi Koz 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/timeshare.resales - general resales
https://www.facebook.com/groups/timeshareusersgroup - mostly a marketing channel for Brian to funnel people to TUG 

I'd say that first group + TUG are a good mix.


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## dougp26364

ccwu said:


> Wait. It is all speculation and sales pitch.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Exactly! Except that they’ve put something in writing that there is a program under consideration to integrate both clubs, something we already knew. All this does is absolve Hilton of any promises a salesman has made if it doesn’t get done or, if whatever the salesman promised isn’t the finished product, but it does it in such a way as to create a sense of urgency to buy something now.

NEVER buy on a promise. Wait until you see the final product. That’s the only way you’ll know if it’s something worth making a very expensive retail purchase. If they have something you really want and you’re willing to pay the price, buy it, but buy it based solely on the merit of what is before you, not what might be down the road. Remember, once the rescind period passes, you’re pretty much stuck with what you’ve purchased today.

It is a unique spin to create a sense of urgency. I’ll give them that much.


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## CalGalTraveler

@doug2634 You are exactly right. Frankly, because it has a January 14 grandfather date it makes anyone who purchased developer in 2021 or prior feel like suckers. This may be a sales ploy. What this would do for me is to say, "Now I have proof that I need to wait until April 1 announcement to understand what this means."


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## GT75

dougp26364 said:


> NEVER buy on a promise. Wait until you see the final product.





dougp26364 said:


> It is a unique spin to create a sense of urgency.


I agree with @dougp26364.   I just read on one of the FB groups that the minimum purchase/upgrade is 4K HGV pts to be part of this new HGV Max program.   So that is ~ $28K minimum.

I will be at Sunrise Lodge in less than 3 weeks.    I will see what I can find out from an owner's update (as long as they offer $250 MF credit).


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## CalGalTraveler

Wow. $28k is a lot of money for 4k points unless that buys a lot of Diamond top resort use. @GT75 I look forward to hearing what you learn.

Wondering whether this program is intended for Diamond owners to participate in HGVC instead of HGVC owners into Diamond? Also wondering if it is for resale buyers. That would make a lot more sense because that would be like a requal in Marriott Vacation Club terms. i.e. to gain access to the entire points system you need to have a minimum developer purchase. However, even MVC grandfathered their developer purchased units pre-2010 so I would be disappointed if HGVC didn't do the same for this program.

Note: I haven't had time to read the details of the FAQ so perhaps the answers to this are contained in that doc.


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## momofkipper

We are at Sunrise next week.  I'll see what I can find out.  We just upgraded our Sunrise unit last year to a 2 BR and have another deed in Las Vegas.  I hope they are not planning to require 4000 more points!


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## GT75

CalGalTraveler said:


> I look forward to hearing what you learn.


Don't get your hopes up too much.     I would still take anything that we hear as pure speculation at this point.     I want to see it in the HGV rules first (honestly, that could also change later on)


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## dayooper

GT75 said:


> I agree with @dougp26364.   I just read on one of the FB groups that the minimum purchase/upgrade is 4K HGV pts to be part of this new HGV Max program.   So that is ~ $28K minimum.
> 
> I will be at Sunrise Lodge in less than 3 weeks.    I will see what I can find out from an owner's update (as long as they offer $250 MF credit).



On the documents that @Nowaker shared, #8 says that “There will be several ways to buy into HGVMax in the future.” That would lead me to believe that it will be available as a standalone product (just like Mark Wang has said in the past couple of investor calls).

Sure, there’s a package that will be needed now, but that’s only to be grandfathered in. It says nothing on a cost ot points total on the FAQ (or what to say if a prospective client asks this question). Any other info said in a sales meeting not on this document is just typical salesman snake oil. That‘s if this is a real document. Like @CalGalTraveler says above, it would tell me that I have to wait until April 1st to see what the details are,

Wild Speculation Alert - Could HGVMax be a trust product? With opt ins and no mixed ownerships, it seems like it could be.


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## Lodemia

I used to write these kinds of agreements for software companies (go ahead and judge me, it's ok).  There's a lot that's NOT said here on purpose to create a FOMO and to encourage sales PRIOR to the official launch of HGV MAX.  I personally would slow-roll this one and not get too excited.


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## dioxide45

dayooper said:


> Wild Speculation Alert - Could HGVMax be a trust product? With opt ins and no mixed ownerships, it seems like it could be.


If it is, I can't seem to find anything recorded yet in Orange County Florida. Now they could record the land trust elsewhere, but pretty much every timeshare company records their land trusts in Orange County.


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## Nowaker

Repost from https://www.facebook.com/groups/HGVCowners/posts/974997953435000/


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## dioxide45

This is why most companies don't share these things with their sales staff until such time they are ready to announce it to their ownership and public. Sales people tend to get sloppy to try to make a sale or prove something.


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## 1Kflyerguy

A leaked document and over eager sales team makes more sense.  I would expect that with a major change like this, HGV would make a public announcement. including an email to all of the members about the new program.  Creating buzz and excitement about the program would help get more people into the sales meetings in the first place.


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## Eric B

Well, it looks like they did apply for a trademark for "HGV Max" in December, so it seems like it might be a thing....



			Trademark Status & Document Retrieval


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## Talent312

I noticed that, when I called C/S (about an RCI issue), the list of buttons to press puts DRI members #1, before HGV members. Perhaps they're trying to divert them from regular HGV staff, but even so, I was a bit miffed.
.


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## dougp26364

Having watched South Park: Post CoVid, the only thing funnier would be if they have a HVC Max Plus elite program


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## BingoBangoBongo

Sat through an update this morning and initially the discussion leaned towards the benefits of being Elite (which doesn‘t really appeal to us) then moved on to Max.  Was offered a 1600 pt EOY deed at an Orlando property for around $8000 with an MF just under $800.  There really weren’t any specifics on how Max would work, just that we would have access to Diamond properties.  Offered a couple of other locations with a higher buy in, but I’m really not interested in jumping in the Max pool without any idea on fees/timeframes.  The Sales Center was very busy so we were out in the promised time.


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## Talent312

dougp26364 said:


> Having watched South Park...



"Max" reminds me of the '60s TV show, "Get Smart."
Perhaps someone at HGV has a sense of humor (not).
A better name would be "HGV Min."
.


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## CalGalTraveler

@Talent312 Ha Ha. Now I can visualize an advertisement with HGV Max with a shoe phone to his ear.  Well at least you can now _Get Smart_ by avoiding _HGV Max_!


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## Mowogo

CalGalTraveler said:


> @Talent312 Ha Ha. Now I can visualize an advertisement with HGV Max with a shoe phone to his ear.  Well at least you can now _Get Smart_ by avoiding _HGV Max_!


They junk things too much and I'll happily dump my HGV properties to be safe from HGV Max, especially since Elite Vistana membership is already in the family.


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## SmithOp

BingoBangoBongo said:


> Sat through an update this morning and initially the discussion leaned towards the benefits of being Elite (which doesn‘t really appeal to us) then moved on to Max. Was offered a 1600 pt EOY deed at an Orlando property for around $8000 with an MF just under $800. There really weren’t any specifics on how Max would work, just that we would have access to Diamond properties. Offered a couple of other locations with a higher buy in, but I’m really not interested in jumping in the Max pool without any idea on fees/timeframes. The Sales Center was very busy so we were out in the promised time.


nope, no way I would own one of those dog 1600 point contracts, not even as a ticket to Max!

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


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## Gwendyc

SmithOp said:


> nope, no way I would own one of those dog 1600 point contracts, not even as a ticket to Max!
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


They offered us the same thing in FL, except I was thinking it was more like $7000 with $900 MF. No mention of Max, though they did refer to my points as "restricted." I was like, I'm doing fine with the restrictions and I will take my chances with the resale market.


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## BingoBangoBongo

SmithOp said:


> nope, no way I would own one of those dog 1600 point contracts, not even as a ticket to Max!
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


Yeah I calculated the MF at north of $.45/point and the $8k is half of what I paid for 23,000 points a year resale.  From what I’ve seen, I still believe there will be some type initiation fee or additional yearly Club Dues for Max that haven’t been defined yet.  I refuse to buy something with no documented policies/costs. It’s kind of ironic but our next stay starts on 4/2 and I’m sure we‘ll get another invite with a similar offer, but hopefully by that time (supposed launch on 4/1) more details are publicly available.


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## CalGalTraveler

Aha...So HGV Max is how they are dumping those valueless properties...People say "I want the cheapest way into the program..."


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## Mowogo

CalGalTraveler said:


> Aha...So HGV Max is how they are dumping those valueless properties...People say "I want the cheapest way into the program..."


Scare people into purchases in hopes they can get into the new program. It has worked with quite a few people in Vistana, so sales would of course do that here.  They make my holdings too much of a second class holding, then I have no problems flipping my holdings over to Wyndham or increase my holdings in Vistana/MVW.


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## BingoBangoBongo

CalGalTraveler said:


> Aha...So HGV Max is how they are dumping those valueless properties...People say "I want the cheapest way into the program..."



And the rep claimed that the $5/pt was a special price, even though it was an EOY deed.  So the deal I was offered was for 800 points/year for an $8000 buy in.  My math has that at $10/point.


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## CalGalTraveler

BingoBangoBongo said:


> And the rep claimed that the $5/pt was a special price, even though it was an EOY deed.  So the deal I was offered was for 800 points/year for an $8000 buy in.  My math has that at $10/point.



Plus you have an albatross deed around your neck when it comes to exit. No Thank you.



Mowogo said:


> Scare people into purchases in hopes they can get into the new program. It has worked with quite a few people in Vistana, so sales would of course do that here.  They make my holdings too much of a second class holding, then I have no problems flipping my holdings over to Wyndham or increase my holdings in Vistana/MVW.




Or pay $0 and enjoy what you already own.  Use the money to rent or buy resale.


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## dougp26364

I think I’ll just stay away from the sales floor until something official is announced, and even then, only go if there’s a simple solution like a joiner fee and that fee is reasonable, then maybe.


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## escanoe

dougp26364 said:


> I think I’ll just stay away from the sales floor until something official is announced, and even then, only go if there’s a simple solution like a joiner fee and that fee is reasonable, then maybe.



When something official is announced, I will independently research it, and if I want to buy it call on the phone and make the purchase. If something (that I pay for) requires a trip to the sales floor, I don't want it.


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## Mongoose

It’s early on, and we don’t know what it will look like in its final form, but one thing should be obvious, it will be a substantial cost regardless of what you currently have.  I just hope the Diamond culture doesn’t poison HGV.


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## geist1223

I hope Hilton leaves DRI alone.


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## dougp26364

geist1223 said:


> I hope Hilton leaves DRI alone.



No doubt both Hilton and DRI owners will have the option to remain just the way they are. It’s only the sales staff that will tell you things have changed and you must spend thousands more, just to keep what you already own.

As time moves on, all things timeshare change. DRI was once Sunterra, Sunterra was once all deeded weeks, Sunterra once only exchanged through II without THE Club. I’ve gone from our original deeded fixed week to floating weeks to points to trust ownership. Everything changes. Nothing remains the same. At the end of the day, if I had wanted to keep that original deeded/fixed week with all it’s original usage options, I would still have it and nothing would have changed with its usage, despite the entirety of the timeshare landscape changing around us.


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## dayooper

dougp26364 said:


> No doubt both Hilton and DRI owners will have the option to remain just the way they are. It’s only the sales staff that will tell you things have changed and you must spend thousands more, just to keep what you already own.
> 
> As time moves on, all things timeshare change. DRI was once Sunterra, Sunterra was once all deeded weeks, Sunterra once only exchanged through II without THE Club. I’ve gone from our original deeded fixed week to floating weeks to points to trust ownership. Everything changes. Nothing remains the same. At the end of the day, if I had wanted to keep that original deeded/fixed week with all it’s original usage options, I would still have it and nothing would have changed with its usage, despite the entirety of the timeshare landscape changing around us.



Great post. Mark Wang has said that there will be no disruptions in purchased rights. I am in the minority that I won't go to any presentations. I could care less what salesman has to say. Just like buying a car. If I want to buy a car, I research what I want, research the price, take a test drive and buy it.


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## Talent312

It will change... Soon, everything DRI will have a HGV sign on it.
But as said, you can always keep + use what you own.
-----------------
A TS sales-weasel once tried to get me to convert a TS week to points.
He said, "Weeks are disappearing. Soon, everything will be in points."
But first, I'd need to buy a "new" TS from them, to trade in my old one.

I replied, "My week will not disappear. We use the week we own here
every friggin' year -- it's like an annual pilgrimage to Mecca, so no...
We have no use for points."
.


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## Mongoose

Talent312 said:


> It will change... Soon, everything DRI will have a HGV sign on it.
> But as said, you can always keep + use what you own.
> -----------------
> A TS sales-weasel once tried to get me to convert a TS week to points.
> He said, "Weeks are disappearing. Soon, everything will be in points."
> But first, I'd need to buy a "new" TS from them, to trade in my old one.
> 
> I replied, "My week will not disappear. We use the week we own here
> every friggin' year -- it's like an annual pilgrimage to Mecca, so no...
> We have no use for points."
> .


Hilton is very protective of their brand.  Nothing will get the flag until it meets their brand standards.


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## dougp26364

Talent312 said:


> It will change... Soon, everything DRI will have a HGV sign on it.
> But as said, you can always keep + use what you own.
> -----------------
> A TS sales-weasel once tried to get me to convert a TS week to points.
> He said, "Weeks are disappearing. Soon, everything will be in points."
> But first, I'd need to buy a "new" TS from them, to trade in my old one.
> 
> I replied, "My week will not disappear. We use the week we own here
> every friggin' year -- it's like an annual pilgrimage to Mecca, so no...
> We have no use for points."
> .



If all that changes is the signs, no one will really care. I bet the little soaps and shampoo bottles will lose the DRI logo as well.

Over time, the only thing that’s changed is the addition of more options, which in turn gives the the sales weasels something to lie about. The thing is, your original usage options never change. If you own a fixed week deeded timeshare that you never exchange and use every year, you still get to use it as outlined in the contract/deed, but you’re  a unicorn in the timeshare world. My bet is less than 1% of all timeshare owners return to their home resort on the exact same date every year. A larger percentage may stay at their home resort every year, but float the week to a different time each year within their season.

As time has gone on our vacation needs have changed. It use to be we went to Las Vegas 4 x year. One week was always on my wife’s birthday. We did that for several years before changing, but we did change. For the last 10 years or so we’ve gone to the same resort in Florida the first week of December. This year that will change also.

Original deeds always remain the same and will until the owner of that deed decides there is something better and decides to make a change. DRI contracted usage and HGVC contracted usage won’t change unless you want to opt into the new option. There’s no need to panic, just because sales staff wants you to panic and spend thousands of dollars more.

As for us we’ll listen to the offer. We’d like the option to reserve DRI units under two conditions. The price to buy that option is reasonable and the option to reserve that pool of resorts looks good enough that I be,I’ve we have a real chance to get the week we want. If those two conditions aren’t met (high price or short booking window of 6 months or less), we’ll keep our money in our pocket and use our HGVC ownership just like we have for the last 20 years.


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## pedro47

We travel to Williamsburg three times per year to the Marriott's Manor Club. If Hilton Vacation Club upgrade their Greensprings Resort and The Historic Powhatan Resort in Williamsburg,  VA; plus their timeshare resorts in Virginia Beach.

The whole timeshare industry is going to change in Virginia in their favor. Hilton Vacation Club have four timeshares resorts located in Virginia Beach, VA. Plus, three of these timeshare resorts are located on the beach.

The Hilton timeshares (formerly Diamond Resorts )in Virginia Beach, already all built and look liked luxury hotels.

Hilton will only needs to improve the interior and upgrade the rooms furnituring, televisions, linen, soap and carpet .
Plus, hired good management staff and maintenance staff to maintain their properties  to Hilton higher standards. IMHO.

There are no Marriott's timeshares in Virginia Beach, VA.
This a win-win for Hilton Vacation Club. IMHO.

There are no Marriott's timeshares in Nage Head (OBX), NC.
There is now a nice Hilton timeshare in Nage Head (OBX),NC.
It is called The Beachwood Resort located in Kitty Hawk,NC in the Nage Head area of North Carolina.


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## escanoe

I am a Northern Virginian, and this is certainly something I am watching.

I don’t expect the Williamsburg timeshares will be hard to get in. There is a glut of perfectly good time shares (my opinion) there now.

I hope the Virginia Beach and Outer Banks options are a big gain out of the merger. But I am skeptical there will be much availability for good summer weeks. I assume those in the DRI system now will still get first dibs. How hard are the prime VA Beach weeks and Outer Banks weeks to book now in DRI if anyone in DRI can share? 



pedro47 said:


> We travel to Williamsburg three times per year to the Marriott's Manor Club. If Hilton Vacation Club upgrade their Greensprings Resort and The Historic Powhatan Resort in Williamsburg,  VA; plus their timeshare resorts in Virginia Beach.
> 
> The whole timeshare industry is going to change in Virginia in their favor. Hilton Vacation Club have four timeshares resorts located in Virginia Beach,qVA. Plus, three of these timeshare resorts are located on the beach.
> 
> The Hilton timeshares (formerly Diamond Resorts )in Virginia Beach, already all built and look liked luxury hotels.
> 
> Hilton will only needs to improve the interior and upgrade the rooms furnituring, televisions, linen, soap and carpet .
> Plus, hired good management staff and maintenance staff to maintain their properties  to Hilton higher standards. IMHO.
> 
> There are no Marriott's timeshares in Virginia Beach, VA.
> This a win-win for Hilton Vacation Club. IMHO.
> 
> There no Marriott's timeshares in Nage Head (OBX), NC.
> There is now a nice Hilton timeshare in Nage Head (OBX),NC.
> It is called The Beachwood Resort located in Kitty Hawk,NC in the Nage Head area of North Carolina.


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## pedro47

Good summer weeks in OBX are hard to rent right now for hotels, private homes and resorts in OBX.

The Beachwood Resort is the largest timeshare resort in OBX. That should be a big plus for Hilton Vacation Club. IMHO.


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## Mongoose

I saw this notice on the Hilton site today.  The are adjusting point values by adding 60%.
*Points Adjustment for Club Members*
Since acquiring Diamond Resorts, Hilton Grand Vacations has been working toward combining these two great companies into one. As part of this effort, we are adjusting all Points within the Hilton Grand Vacations Club Program on February 24, 2022. Starting on this day, the Club website, mobile app and Club Partner sites will reflect the newly adjusted totals.


*See How Your Points Will Change*
Use our Points Adjustment Calculator to view your new Points total


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## escanoe

I have noticed the Beachwoods is fairly easy to book in RCI for summer if you do it early. But I seldom see good summer Virginia Beach weeks for the DRI properties in Virginia Beach. I assume they are pretty heavily booked in the internal system …. but that is just a guess. 



pedro47 said:


> Good summer weeks in OBX are hard to rent right now for hotels, private homes and resorts in OBX.
> 
> The Beachwood Resort is the largest timeshare resort in OBX. That should be a big plus for Hilton Vacation Club. IMHO.


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## ccwu

escanoe said:


> I have noticed the Beachwoods is fairly easy to book in RCI for summer if you do it early. But I seldom see good summer Virginia Beach weeks for the DRI properties in Virginia Beach. I assume they are pretty heavily booked in the internal system …. but that is just a guess.



It is hard to book the DRI two top Virginia Beach Oceanaire resort next the Hilton Garden Inn on the beach front. I am DRI platinum member and can book 14 month in advance. But I could hardly find summer week. (If I find one, I would grab it when I see it.). The fixed week owners have priority. Lots of the deeded fixed week owner never join DRI and hold on to their fixed week. Oceanaire is close to Hilton standard. We goes there often in the summer. You can see the resort in Hilton.com (with note: coming soon). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dayooper

ccwu said:


> It is hard to book the DRI two top Virginia Beach Oceanaire resort next the Hilton Garden Inn on the beach front. I am DRI platinum member and can book 14 month in advance. But I could hardly find summer week. (If I find one, I would grab it when I see it.). The fixed week owners have priority. Lots of the deeded fixed week owner never join DRI and hold on to their fixed week. Oceanaire is close to Hilton standard. We goes there often in the summer. You can see the resort in Hilton.com (with note: coming soon).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That place looks nice (at least from pictures). The pool areas look great!


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## escanoe

pedro47 said:


> There are no Marriott's timeshares in Virginia Beach, VA.
> This a win-win for Hilton Vacation Club. IMHO.
> 
> There are no Marriott's timeshares in Nage Head (OBX), NC.



No doubt, there will be plenty of people to now market to in VA.

That said, I have assumed it is by design there were no Hiltons or Marriotts (timeshares) in the OBX, Virginia Beach, Ocean City, and the NJ Beaches.

With the shorter prime beach season, nice beach timeshares struggle in this region. Mediocre ones do okay in Virginia Beach where there is a large urban area year round, but that is abt it.


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## SunshineSlug

Went to an owner's update in Kingsland yesterday wherein we were presented an offer to join "MAX". One has to buy 50K worth of property to join EXCEPT on Kona where it could be bought for a mere 10K. LOL.  Went for info on the merger but am never going again. After all we've paid into Hilton, why can't we just get a friendly update as opposed to a hardshell?


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## Nowaker

SunshineSlug said:


> One has to buy 50K worth of property to join EXCEPT on Kona where it could be bought for a mere 10K.


Probably just lies to make a sale, as usual.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

SunshineSlug said:


> Went to an owner's update in Kingsland yesterday wherein we were presented an offer to join "MAX". One has to buy 50K worth of property to join EXCEPT on Kona where it could be bought for a mere 10K. LOL.  Went for info on the merger but am never going again. After all we've paid into Hilton, why can't we just get a friendly update as opposed to a hardshell?


That is very interesting. I suspect it may be more sales floor spin, but let me elaborate.

If they are selling Kona ownerships independently of the Hawaii Collection, exactly what are they selling in Kona? For at least10 years, in our "owner updates" DRI has often mentioned a new DRI property on the Big Island. We've been assured that when we come back the next year, there would be Big Island. First it was a property in Hilo they were in the process of acquiring. But nothing came from that. More recently they have been talking about a site on the south side of Kona that DRI purchased, where the prior property was removed and is development ready. They started mentioning that property about five years ago. I'm not ware that anything has happened with that site. In fact, in the time that they first mentioned the Kona site, they have acquired the Modern property in Waikiki.
Up to the time of the HGVC acquisition, DRI was selling ownerships in resort collections, not at specific resorts. So if you were offered a purchase that is specifically a Kona purchase, with unit reservation rights that are specific to the Kona location, that is a significant departure from recent practice. In the presentation information that we have received, there has been no indication that the Kona resort might be available to purchase in any fashion other than by purchasing points in the Hawaii Collection.
If there is opportunity to buy in Kona that is distinct and separate from the Hawaii Collection, there are advantages to doing so. Specifically, if you make a purchase that is not part of the Hawaii Collection, you will avoid the (not insignificant) annual trust management fees. Of course, if that is an option that you are interested in, you should wait a few yeas and try to acquire a unit on the resale market.


----------



## SunshineSlug

T R. , To my understanding the 10K  to join Max could be towards a deed anywhere in the Hilton chain.  It was the fact that we were sitting in a Kona office that made the 10K (as opposed to 50K) possible. Lucky us!  Haha


----------



## BingoBangoBongo

SunshineSlug said:


> T R. , To my understanding the 10K  to join Max could be towards a deed anywhere in the Hilton chain.  It was the fact that we were sitting in a Kona office that made the 10K (as opposed to 50K) possible. Lucky us!  Haha



I mentioned earlier in this thread at a presentation in Orlando a few weeks ago we were offered a 1600 point deed for either $8000 or $8500.  Prices must be going up.  The rep was really surprised we didn’t want access to a program that hasn’t even had it’s rules/benefits made public yet.


----------



## bizaro86

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> That is very interesting. I suspect it may be more sales floor spin, but let me elaborate.
> 
> If they are selling Kona ownerships independently of the Hawaii Collection, exactly what are they selling in Kona? For at least10 years, in our "owner updates" DRI has often mentioned a new DRI property on the Big Island. We've been assured that when we come back the next year, there would be Big Island. First it was a property in Hilo they were in the process of acquiring. But nothing came from that. More recently they have been talking about a site on the south side of Kona that DRI purchased, where the prior property was removed and is development ready. They started mentioning that property about five years ago. I'm not ware that anything has happened with that site. In fact, in the time that they first mentioned the Kona site, they have acquired the Modern property in Waikiki.
> Up to the time of the HGVC acquisition, DRI was selling ownerships in resort collections, not at specific resorts. So if you were offered a purchase that is specifically a Kona purchase, with unit reservation rights that are specific to the Kona location, that is a significant departure from recent practice. In the presentation information that we have received, there has been no indication that the Kona resort might be available to purchase in any fashion other than by purchasing points in the Hawaii Collection.
> If there is opportunity to buy in Kona that is distinct and separate from the Hawaii Collection, there are advantages to doing so. Specifically, if you make a purchase that is not part of the Hawaii Collection, you will avoid the (not insignificant) annual trust management fees. Of course, if that is an option that you are interested in, you should wait a few yeas and try to acquire a unit on the resale market.



HGVC hasn't stopped selling HGVC deeds, which all have a specific location.


----------



## Shmiddy

The way it was explained to me was there will be three ownership tiers:
HGVC - you can access all HGVC properties as you do now
Diamond - They can access all of their properties as they do now
HGV-Max - Can access both HGVC and Diamond properties.
For purchases Jan 14-April 4 you get grandfathered in to HGV Max for free, after April 4 a separate 'acquisition fee' would be charged on top of a deed purchase for HGV Max - supposedly in the $10K range, again on top of the cost of the deed.


----------



## dayooper

Shmiddy said:


> The way it was explained to me was there will be three ownership tiers:
> HGVC - you can access all HGVC properties as you do now
> Diamond - They can access all of their properties as they do now
> HGV-Max - Can access both HGVC and Diamond properties.
> For purchases Jan 14-April 4 you get grandfathered in to HGV Max for free, after April 4 a separate 'acquisition fee' would be charged on top of a deed purchase for HGV Max - supposedly in the $10K range, again on top of the cost of the deed.



$10K? That’s ridiculous.


----------



## Msb1102

10k? No way. If they had an option to add it to all of my deeds for 2k and it would transfer will my deeds if I ever decided to sell, I might find the value in that but at 10K, it would probably just be better to buy resale into Diamond.


----------



## bnoble

Msb1102 said:


> at 10K, it would probably just be better to buy resale into Diamond.


...except that you can't really do that. On resale, a Diamond ownership is withdrawn from The Club and reverts to its underlying rights, either at a specific resort or a smaller collection. You need to purchase "new" points to re-qualify a resale and bring it back into The Club.


----------



## GT75

Shmiddy said:


> HGV-Max - Can access both HGVC and Diamond properties


Yes, but when will you get access?    At 6 month window?


----------



## Shmiddy

dayooper said:


> $10K? That’s ridiculous.


That's the hook they are using to get people to buy before April 4th. I'm thinking they will dangle a free or reduced cost access to Max for buyers after.


----------



## dayooper

Shmiddy said:


> That's the hook they are using to get people to buy before April 4th. I'm thinking they will dangle a free or reduced cost access to Max for buyers after.



I’m sure of it. I’m pretty sure they will also offer a stand alone membership.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Whatever they decide, it sounds like HGVC is not sitting on their hands and will roll out this program soon. I commend them on taking action.  I compare this to MVC who acquired Vistana years ago and has had an integration program "to be announced" for years.


----------



## Mongoose

The question I have is how many diamond locations will be re-flagged HGV.


----------



## dayooper

Mongoose said:


> The question I have is how many diamond locations will be re-flagged HGV.



IMHO, not many. There may some resorts that have both, but almost all will stay in their same system.


----------



## dougp26364

dayooper said:


> IMHO, not many. There may some resorts that have both, but almost all will stay in their same system.



If they’re planning on using DRI as an entry level product, you may be surprised how many they reflag, especially in locations Hilton doesn’t currently occupy. Sedona, Gatlinburg and Branson are a few. Also, some DRI resorts have various quality units. Sedona Summit has at least three varieties of unit. Branson has standard and deluxe units. There is the possibility that a portion of a resortt or the higher value units get rebranded and the standard units are not. I doubt it, but it’s a possibility.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

All will be reflagged as HGV or Hilton "Grand"  (or spun off from the system if they don't meet profit and quality criteria). It sounds like most will be reflagged from Diamond as HGV to support current Diamond members. with Embarc and potentially a select few reflagged as Hilton Grand.


----------



## dayooper

dougp26364 said:


> If they’re planning on using DRI as an entry level product, you may be surprised how many they reflag, especially in locations Hilton doesn’t currently occupy. Sedona, Gatlinburg and Branson are a few. Also, some DRI resorts have various quality units. Sedona Summit has at least three varieties of unit. Branson has standard and deluxe units. There is the possibility that a portion of a resortt or the higher value units get rebranded and the standard units are not. I doubt it, but it’s a possibility.



I still go back to the fact that in the 2022 list if units owned HGVC only listed 110 units at Ocean Enclave when in past declarations, it was 330. Chicago and Elara were also short units as well. My wild speculation is there will be some movement between HGVC and DRI properties. Trading units in HGVC with units in DRI might satisfy the legal aspects of the trust and if they are going to move units in certain resorts, they will need to add others.

Units in Maui and Kauai would sell for much more than they would now. The pent up energy for other Islands would push the cost of those refurbished weeks into Ocean Tower range or more.


----------



## dioxide45

Aren't they reflagging a number of properties as "Hilton Vacation Club in April?


----------



## CanuckTravlr

Just to clarify, my understanding is that the "Hilton *Grand* Vacations Club" (HGVC) locations will remain those already in the HGVC system, plus a select few former DRI locations.  Hopefully that includes the Embarc locations, since the latter had a prior relationship with HGVC before their acquisition by DRI.

Most reflagging of Diamond locations will be to "Hilton Vacations Club" (HVC), no "Grand".  HGV Inc. in their pronouncements seems to have indicated they have little to no interest in continuing the Diamond brand.   Whether they do or not remains to be seen.  The highest and most expensive tier, mostly urban, is a third group that already exists, (by) Hilton Club, no "Grand" or "Vacation".

HGV Max will supposedly describe a program that will allow members, formerly on either side, to access at least some locations on the other side.  Which ones and at what price will not be known until April.  Anything else is just pure speculation and/or wishful thinking.

The claims by the sales weasels notwithstanding, and the fuzziness of the wording on the sales presentation documents, would not entice me to enter into any agreement without a clear understanding of just what I am buying.  If it truly ends up being $10K or some other ridiculous requirement, I won't be participating. If it's a few hundred dollars up to maybe a couple thousand, or an annual additional membership fee, then I might very well bite.

I'll wait until the April announcement before I even consider making any decision.


----------



## dioxide45

The only obstacle to slapping Hilton on a resort is the ability to get Hilton to certify that resort with their brand. If it isn't up to Hilton (hotel company) brand standards, then they won't use Hilton Vacation Club or any other name with "Hilton" in it until they do or give the resort some other name. THough it would seem that already Hilton Grand Vacation Club and Hilton Vacation Club are probably two tiers. Not exactly sure what would qualify some resort to be HVC over not being HVC. Perhaps some of the properties we know already will be HVC tells us something about what they would need to bring other resorts up to in order to bring them in.

They could also simply remove "Diamond" from any of the resorts that don't get rebranded to HGV or HVC. Vistana does this with Vistana Beach Club where it doesn't carry the Westin or Sheraton brand names. THey also did it previously with Lakeside Terrace (or maybe it was Mountain Vista). They could just carry those unbranded resorts along and as they renovate they can get them more in line with being able to carry the Hilton name.


----------



## Talent312

So we may be facing 4-subsystems: bHC, HGVC, HVC and DRI-remnants.
Maybe they could give 'em identifiers like roman numerals - I, II, III & IV.

"Fasten your seatbelts; it's going to be a bumpy night."
-- Bette Davis in "All About Eve" (1950)
.


----------



## dioxide45

Talent312 said:


> So we may be facing 4-subsystems: bHC, HGVC, HVC and DRI-remnants.
> 
> "Fasten your seatbelts; it's going to be a bumpy night."
> -- Bette Davis in "All About Eve" (1950)
> .


But with HGV Max, they all become one system!


----------



## CanuckTravlr

dioxide45 said:


> But with HGV Max, they all become one system!



I'm not sure anyone has actually said that, although it would be great if it happened, depending upon the access cost.  With respect to HGV Max, based on what I have read so far, it only seems to offer some (or more) access to both sides.  I haven't heard anything so far that suggests it would open up ALL locations to access, but we can always hope!


----------



## Shmiddy

dayooper said:


> $10K? That’s ridiculous.


So I got all this in an online owner update, and she gave us 72 hours to decide. I emailed her back, detailing all the points she made, my understanding of the program and what I would be getting for my upgrade. I asked for her to respond either acknowledging or correcting my understanding. She got back but used the term 'enrollment fee along with a purchase of some sort required' to get in to the Max program after April 4th, but not a specific amount (which she did in the meeting). Waiting for everything to come out in the wash before I decide anything.


----------



## pedro47

I still feel everyone needs to wait for the official and final answers from Hilton. IMHO.


----------



## dioxide45

Shmiddy said:


> So I got all this in an online owner update, and she gave us 72 hours to decide. I emailed her back, detailing all the points she made, my understanding of the program and what I would be getting for my upgrade. I asked for her to respond either acknowledging or correcting my understanding. She got back but used the term 'enrollment fee along with a purchase of some sort required' to get in to the Max program after April 4th, but not a specific amount (which she did in the meeting). Waiting for everything to come out in the wash before I decide anything.


Any purchase now will do nothing to help an owner in any new combined system. That is the whole reason for the disclosure show in post #1. They know their sales people are like and they need to cover their tracks. This is why a company should never share any information with their sales staff about any upcoming program changes until they have a new product to sell. Perhaps bring in a few as subject matter experts but overall they shouldn't say anything to sales because they will disseminate it just to make a sale.


----------



## pedro47

dioxide45 said:


> Any purchase now will do nothing to help an owner in any new combined system. That is the whole reason for the disclosure show in post #1. They know their sales people are like and they need to cover their tracks. This is why a company should never share any information with their sales staff about any upcoming program changes until they have a new product to sell. Perhaps bring in a few as subject matter experts but overall they shouldn't say anything to sales because they will disseminate it just to make a sale.


What do you called those birds that fly around in sky, when something is dead?
Vultures. 
Are these sales person lips moving. Do they know the official and final answers from Hilton.


----------



## Mongoose

CalGalTraveler said:


> All will be reflagged as HGV or Hilton "Grand"  (or spun off from the system if they don't meet profit and quality criteria). It sounds like most will be reflagged from Diamond as HGV to support current Diamond members. with Embarc and potentially a select few reflagged as Hilton Grand.


I don’t know about that.  Hilton is big on branding.  The will use this to expand the number of brands they have while at the same time not damaging hilton with product that aren’t up to Hilton standards.


----------



## Yi.Jun

Currently if any upgrade is done which has a minimum of $40-45k then it will include HGV Max for free is what I heard from HGV. There will be price increase starting April 1st but the exact date is not 100% confirmed... 

When I purchased Maui Bay Villa last June, it was $51k for 9300 points.  The same deed and points are now at $70K, I cannot believe it is going higher and people are still buying them!


----------



## Yi.Jun

Shmiddy said:


> The way it was explained to me was there will be three ownership tiers:
> HGVC - you can access all HGVC properties as you do now
> Diamond - They can access all of their properties as they do now
> HGV-Max - Can access both HGVC and Diamond properties.
> For purchases Jan 14-April 4 you get grandfathered in to HGV Max for free, after April 4 a separate 'acquisition fee' would be charged on top of a deed purchase for HGV Max - supposedly in the $10K range, again on top of the cost of the deed.


This is what I heard as well from HGV.


----------



## Yi.Jun

Mongoose said:


> The question I have is how many diamond locations will be re-flagged HGV.


I heard not all 90 DRI properties will be available at once.  Some will be remodeled...


----------



## Yi.Jun

Mongoose said:


> I don’t know about that.  Hilton is big on branding.  The will use this to expand the number of brands they have while at the same time not damaging hilton with product that aren’t up to Hilton standards.


I agree.  At same time, do the price increase with re-branding.


----------



## pedro47

This is not about timeshare.  Just some off the wall information. 
I just found this out their is a Hilton Hotel on the Island of Bimini in The Bahamian.
That island was the last port of called for the last two luxury Crystal's Cruise ships.
Crystal's cruise lines have now declared bankruptcy.


----------



## Mongoose

Yi.Jun said:


> This is what I heard as well from HGV.


That would be consistent with maintaining separate brands.


----------



## Talent312

pedro47 said:


> [There] is a Hilton Hotel on the Island of Bimini, The Bahamian....


Maybe they'll let you tour the ghost-ships.
----------------------------

Maybe they'll put "by Hilton Vacations" on substandard DRI resorts
in very fine print, and leave off the emblem.
.


----------



## pedro47

Talent312 said:


> Maybe they'll let you tour the ghost-ships.
> ----------------------------
> 
> Maybe they'll put "by Hilton Vacations" on substandard DRI resorts
> in very fine print, and leave off the emblem.
> .


The two (2) Crystals ships are docked in the Port of Freeport, in the Bahamian.


----------



## Kakae

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks for sharing. This sounds vague. Frankly for $26k I could rent a lifetime of Diamond units on Redweek or Hilton.com with zero MF obligation. IMHO...Beyond HGVC there are not many places on the Diamond list that would create usage of $26k for our situation. It would be cheaper to pick up a resale Diamond week.
> 
> Did they say that the reason you couldn't automatically participate was because you were resale only? i.e. can people with developer purchases automatically participate?  If they require a developer upgrade, that is a non-starter for us. Especially since we already own a developer unit - that would be totally screwing over anyone who purchased developer unit in the past - and I would not be happy about that.


I am an HGV developer owner and I was given the same pitch. I will not be part of HGV Max without repurchase. When I pushed back asking if that was the only way, I was then told that there is going to be a way to access all properties but it will be an additional fee. This has not been completely developed yet. Therefore, my best option would be to upgrade my unit and be part of HGV Max with the purchase.


----------



## dayooper

Kakae said:


> I am an HGV developer owner and I was given the same pitch. I will not be part of HGV Max without repurchase. When I pushed back asking if that was the only way, I was then told that there is going to be a way to access all properties but it will be an additional fee. This has not been completely developed yet. Therefore, my best option would be to upgrade my unit and be part of HGV Max with the purchase.



LOL! Best for who? The purchaser or the salesman? It’s hilarious they said that your best decision would be to purchase before you have all of the information!


----------



## CalGalTraveler

FYI...participation in broader programs with an additional purchase is how MVC/Vistana tries to monetize their enrollment/points program. At more than a decade offering such programs, only 60% of MVC owners have enrolled in their points program. That means that 40% of deeded owners just use, rent or trade their deeded week in II.  This is for owners who had no points options in the past so 60% is a dismal figure IMHO.

The value proposition is worse for deed and points programs similar to Vistana and HGVC in which you can already trade with points. The 40% unenrolled in MVC contains some of the most valuable inventory but the trading program cannot access it e.g. Maui Ocean Club Oceanfront 3 bdrms.  Programs where everyone enrolls upfront e.g. HGVC, Vistana are much more fluid and valuable because all the inventory is potentially accessible. FWIW this is why inventory is limited in South Florida, many owners of the best units and weeks don't opt into the HGVC program because they use it or when they don't it is more lucrative to rent it out.

So if they use this selective enrollment method, will one only have access to less desirable units in DRI that opt to enroll? And will it be limited for the first 5 years since it depends on people opting (i.e. paying $10k or more) into the program.


----------



## JoeyS

Went to owner update yesterday...They stated that HGV will be taking control of at least 95 of the most popular DR owned and managed resorts that were in the DR Club. As this happens the Clubs inventory will be taken away and moved into the new HGV Max side of things. Diamond/HGV will be holding owner updates where they will give you the option to move into HGV Max ( i have 16,500 DR pts and they wanted $165,000 to make the switch). As owners make the switch then DR Club inventory will be move to HGV Max. This will leave less inventory to choose from as a DR member. But the maintenance fees will not go down, they will go up because there are now less DR members to fund the left over inventory. So if you though it was difficult to book before then it will likely get worse. think of it this way... a resort has an allocated number of rooms for DR owners that equal, lets say 1 million pts. As DR members move to HGV Max their DR points get moved to HGV Max thereby leaving less availability. HGV is already taking some allocation of room from resort and refurbishing them to their standard.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@JoeyS Time will tell. They are giving the same argument to Vistana Deed owners to switch to Westin or Sheraton Flex which is their trust points program. So far the loss of inventory has been negligible in Vistana after several years of Flex.

If you own a weekly DRI deed at a resort and room type you like (own what you use) such as Pt at Poipu or KBC you will be unaffected because your room will always be there as long as you don't trade it out for a trust. IMHO...this is one reason I avoid points trusts  because there are many shell games that can be played with the underlying trust deeds in terms of what gets transferred out/traded for lower value deeds.

Like @brp we may opt for a resale Poipu deeded week once the dust settles if the price and MF are right.


----------



## dayooper

JoeyS said:


> Went to owner update yesterday...They stated that HGV will be taking control of at least 95 of the most popular DR owned and managed resorts that were in the DR Club. As this happens the Clubs inventory will be taken away and moved into the new HGV Max side of things. Diamond/HGV will be holding owner updates where they will give you the option to move into HGV Max ( i have 16,500 DR pts and they wanted $165,000 to make the switch). As owners make the switch then DR Club inventory will be move to HGV Max. This will leave less inventory to choose from as a DR member. But the maintenance fees will not go down, they will go up because there are now less DR members to fund the left over inventory. So if you though it was difficult to book before then it will likely get worse. think of it this way... a resort has an allocated number of rooms for DR owners that equal, lets say 1 million pts. As DR members move to HGV Max their DR points get moved to HGV Max thereby leaving less availability. HGV is already taking some allocation of room from resort and refurbishing them to their standard.



I really wish people would stop going to sales presentations until everything is announced. The crap coming out of these is as bad as I can remember. Is there truth to these sales discussions? Who knows, but we, nor the sales weasels don’t know anything of how this will work. HGVC is supposed to release the merger info on April 1st, but we may get a glimpse of what is to come on March 1st when HGVC has their investor call. Until then, everything out there is just speculation from one group to another.

The ownership base has soooooo much drama right now. I never was super involved in the Facebook groups, but the anger echo chamber is getting to the point where many of those groups are unreadable. The misinformation is at a all time high and people are so angry they are convinced they are right. Not a healthy way and sales weasels are taking advantage.


----------



## magmue

> The misinformation is at a all time high and people are so angry they are convinced they are right.


Not unlike modern politics.


----------



## Mongoose

That's absurd.   In my experience, many of the DRI resorts can be had for discounted cash nights on the hotel room market.  I can't imagine who would jump for that.  Even if you price a week at $3K, it would take 55 weeks (potentially decades based on your points) to break even and that does not include their high MFs.

I once had a very nice 3BR lockoff at Mystic Dunes from the resale market ($1).  They offered to convert it for me for $40K.  This was a number of years back.  Then they insulted us and tried to keep us from leaving.  I couldn't believe the mafia tactics.  Ruined our stay and forever discolored my impression of DRI.  We gave it back just to get away from them.


----------



## Mongoose

Talent312 said:


> So we may be facing 4-subsystems: bHC, HGVC, HVC and DRI-remnants.
> Maybe they could give 'em identifiers like roman numerals - I, II, III & IV.
> 
> "Fasten your seatbelts; it's going to be a bumpy night."
> -- Bette Davis in "All About Eve" (1950)
> .


The question is, will HGVC get any of these new resorts or have access to them without a hefty cost.  I'd like to think so, at least in some key markets where they don't have market share, but....


----------



## dayooper

magmue said:


> Not unlike modern politics.



Yes, it is.


----------



## ocdb8r

dayooper said:


> I really wish people would stop going to sales presentations until everything is announced. The crap coming out of these is as bad as I can remember. Is there truth to these sales discussions? Who knows, but we, nor the sales weasels don’t know anything of how this will work. HGVC is supposed to release the merger info on April 1st, but we may get a glimpse of what is to come on March 1st when HGVC has their investor call. Until then, everything out there is just speculation from one group to another.
> 
> The ownership base has soooooo much drama right now. I never was super involved in the Facebook groups, but the anger echo chamber is getting to the point where many of those groups are unreadable. The misinformation is at a all time high and people are so angry they are convinced they are right. Not a healthy way and sales weasels are taking advantage.



Agreed - not only is all the speculation unhealthy, it only serves to make the ACTUAL rollout more confusing.  In the end it only benefits HGVC who can portray themselves as the "hero" when things are inevitably not as bad as predicted.  People, need to remember, no matter what salespeople say, as a Company HGVC wants to keep owners engaged and not marginalize them.  A report that it would cost 165k to switch to HGV Max is absurd given you could make a brand new developer purchase of the same number of points for MUCH less.


----------



## Cyberc

JoeyS said:


> ….. As owners make the switch then DR Club inventory will be move to HGV Max. This will leave less inventory to choose from as a DR member. But the maintenance fees will not go down, they will go up because there are now less DR members to fund the left over inventory.



IMO this is incorrect. If you own at a resort you pay MF to that resort regardless of how your ownership is used ie HGV Max. 

the sales scum might try to convince you otherwise just to get you to sign.

IF it was true then you could actually own a timeshare but not pay MF, in theory that Sounds great but not so much as who should cover tax, upkeep etc?

in theory HGV would make you pay an extra fee to be part of HGV Max and DRI. The extra fee might just be included in the a new club fee.

Remember HGV have paid a lot of money to buy DRI and who is better to pay them back? Member…..


----------



## dougp26364

dayooper said:


> I really wish people would stop going to sales presentations until everything is announced. The crap coming out of these is as bad as I can remember. Is there truth to these sales discussions? Who knows, but we, nor the sales weasels don’t know anything of how this will work. HGVC is supposed to release the merger info on April 1st, but we may get a glimpse of what is to come on March 1st when HGVC has their investor call. Until then, everything out there is just speculation from one group to another.
> 
> The ownership base has soooooo much drama right now. I never was super involved in the Facebook groups, but the anger echo chamber is getting to the point where many of those groups are unreadable. The misinformation is at a all time high and people are so angry they are convinced they are right. Not a healthy way and sales weasels are taking advantage.



i was thinking something similar, but more along the lines of how can people be so stupid as to believe the lies coming out of the sales staff’s mouths.

We use to complain about the Westgate sales experience. What Hilton and DRI are shoveling makes Westgate look like a walk in the park.


----------



## dayooper

dougp26364 said:


> i was thinking something similar, but more along the lines of how can people be so stupid as to believe the lies coming out of the sales staff’s mouths.
> 
> We use to complain about the Westgate sales experience. What Hilton and DRI are shoveling makes Westgate look like a walk in the park.



I am very disappointed in the HGVC Sales staff for their tactics (and HGVC in general for allowing or encouraging the behavior).  I normally say that HGVC is a stand up company, but the way sales staff is handling this is concerning. Maybe they have always been like this and it's just there's more talk due to everybody wants to know what's going on. We shall see.


----------



## jeffox

This sounds similar to when DRI tried to get me to join the club, everyone is doing it and once they are all on points there won't be any weeks available to trade into and only for $10k, an increased maintenance fee and club dues. I gave back my unit to DRI when it only costs $250 and am more happy everyday that I did. On this very day you can rent the same unit for less then my maintenance fees from years ago and now I just rent when needed.


----------



## elaine

dayooper said:


> I normally say that HGVC is a stand up company, but the way sales staff is handling this is concerning. Maybe they have always been like this and it's just there's more talk due to everybody wants to know what's going on. We shall see.


Is it legacy HGVC sales staff or DRI staff?


----------



## dayooper

elaine said:


> Is it legacy HGVC sales staff or DRI staff?



From the reports, it's both at HGVC and DRI resorts. Mind you it's not all salesman, but the reports seem to be more than usual.


----------



## geist1223

There is no DRI Sales Staff. They are all Hilton Employees.


----------



## dioxide45

geist1223 said:


> There is no DRI Sales Staff. They are all Hilton Employees.


Perhaps, but I suspect those that came from the Diamond still sell DRI properties and those working at Hilton properties sell HGV. I suspect there is still a distinct separation within the sales teams?


----------



## dougp26364

dayooper said:


> I am very disappointed in the HGVC Sales staff for their tactics (and HGVC in general for allowing or encouraging the behavior).  I normally say that HGVC is a stand up company, but the way sales staff is handling this is concerning. Maybe they have always been like this and it's just there's more talk due to everybody wants to know what's going on. We shall see.



Hilton has been like this for some time now. We’ve attended three presentations over the last decade or so. I’ve been disappointed at the amount of lies they were trying to sell us.

I’m not sure we’ll attend another presentation with Hilton. I’m hoping they’ll offer a reasonably priced joiner fee to participate in the “MAX “ program that only requires a phone call to purchase. I’d like to bypass the BS of a presentation while on vacation. If memory serves me correctly, that’s what Marriott did for it’s owners when they came out with their points program. I’m pretty certain I simply called or joined online and paid the fee to enroll our weeks.


----------



## brp

dayooper said:


> I really wish people would stop going to sales presentations until everything is announced.



Well, I would amend this to "perhaps people should stop going to sales presentations *for information* until everything is announced." if the perks are good enough, no reason not to go. NYC for example.

We were just at Elara this past weekend. They called about attending an "information session." The perks were not good, so I declined. He mentioned that we'd get "information," so I asked a few pointed questions and he "didn't know." I mentioned a few things I'd read here. he indicated that he hadn't heard these things, and wondered where I had.

I told him that I read it on a website that knows more about the program than any of their staff.  He then realized that we were not going to attend.

But, yeah, I'd not go to them for information. Just for acceptable perks.

Cheers.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

+1@brp Even when it is announced, why go to a presentation for info when you can find out here? Go for the perks...if you can tolerate the preso.


----------



## GT75

CalGalTraveler said:


> Even when it is announced, why go to a presentation for info when you can find out here?


I agree.  I would also want to hear from the TUG collective wisdom/analysis.


----------



## pedro47

dougp26364 said:


> Hilton has been like this for some time now. We’ve attended three presentations over the last decade or so. I’ve been disappointed at the amount of lies they were trying to sell us.
> 
> I’m not sure we’ll attend another presentation with Hilton. I’m hoping they’ll offer a reasonably priced joiner fee to participate in the “MAX “ program that only requires a phone call to purchase. I’d like to bypass the BS of a presentation while on vacation. If memory serves me correctly, that’s what Marriott did for it’s owners when they came out with their points program. I’m pretty certain I simply called or joined online and paid the fee to enroll our weeks.


dougp26364, what do you feel is a reasonable joining fee for the 'MAX Program?"


----------



## dayooper

pedro47 said:


> dougp26364, what do you feel is a reasonable joining fee for the 'MAX Program?"



Not @dougp26364 But I really don't know until we know what it will entail. If we get just 6 month or less availability into DRI resorts, I'm not sure how well that will work. I think we also have to look at how a new membership will change what we already own. Will I sacrifice a better chance of getting into the HGVC I like for DRI access? If so, than I'm not sure we will bite.


----------



## PigsDad

pedro47 said:


> dougp26364, what do you feel is a reasonable joining fee for the 'MAX Program?"


I'm not Doug, but my answer would be "I have no idea yet". 

Since the program hasn't even been defined yet, there is no way to place a value on it yet.   So many questions to be answered.  What resorts will I get access to?  How far in advance can I book, and how does that compare to what others (original DRI owners, etc.) can do?  Will there be additional booking fees?   Any limitations on how often you can book?  Blackout dates?  Additional annual fees or a one-time join fee?  Do my rights transfer upon resale?  Etc., etc.

I just can't see anyone making any kind of decision on a program that hasn't been defined. 

Kurt


----------



## NiteMaire

pedro47 said:


> dougp26364, what do you feel is a reasonable joining fee for the 'MAX Program?"


Regardless of what it is, it'll be too much for me.  I'll wait for resale memberships to pop up in a few years


----------



## GT75

pedro47 said:


> dougp26364, what do you feel is a reasonable joining fee for the 'MAX Program?"


At this point, I wouldn’t even join if it was free w/o any details.     After all, without know the program details, you could be giving up more as a deeded owner than the benefits from the new program.


----------



## dougp26364

pedro47 said:


> dougp26364, what do you feel is a reasonable joining fee for the 'MAX Program?"



At $295, I’m in. At $500 I’ll think about it. At $1,000 it’s doubtful.

From Hilton’s perspective the price will depend on their goals. If they want members to join to boost the number of owners participating, the cost will be inexpensive. I suspect they’ll believe they have something a lot of members will want and they won’t really care how many join, so it won’t surprise me to see a joiner fee we’ll over $1,000. If that’s the case it’s cheaper for me to stand pat and exchange thru Interval for destinations I want.


----------



## Eileen A.

dougp26364 said:


> At $295, I’m in. At $500 I’ll think about it. At $1,000 it’s doubtful.
> 
> From Hilton’s perspective the price will depend on their goals. If they want members to join to boost the number of owners participating, the cost will be inexpensive. I suspect they’ll believe they have something a lot of members will want and they won’t really care how many join, so it won’t surprise me to see a joiner fee we’ll over $1,000. If that’s the case it’s cheaper for me to stand pat and exchange thru Interval for destinations I want.


I'm on the other side - DRI Platinum member (51,500 pts).  Just had an owner update in Las Vegas.  I can join MAX for a mere $43,000.  This includes having to buy an additional 10,000 points.  If I don't "join" I was told my inventory choices will be less because Hilton members will have access to the Diamond resorts.  I guess time will tell how this plays out.


----------



## dougp26364

Eileen A. said:


> I'm on the other side - DRI Platinum member (51,500 pts).  Just had an owner update in Las Vegas.  I can join MAX for a mere $43,000.  This includes having to buy an additional 10,000 points.  If I don't "join" I was told my inventory choices will be less because Hilton members will have access to the Diamond resorts.  I guess time will tell how this plays out.



Don’t believe the lies the salesmen tell you. They use the fear of losing what you’ve already paid for to get you to buy more. It’s the most common sales trick.

I always send it back to them by telling them I won’t spend another penny with a company that would cheat me out of what I already spent thousands to own.


----------



## geist1223

Stop going to updates. Stop reading Facebook. Just wait.


----------



## dioxide45

geist1223 said:


> Stop going to updates. Stop reading Facebook. Just wait.


Stop reading these threads too?


----------



## geist1223

dioxide45 said:


> Stop reading these threads too?



Yes I am done with these threads.


----------



## pedro47

dougp26364 said:


> At $295, I’m in. At $500 I’ll think about it. At $1,000 it’s doubtful.
> 
> From Hilton’s perspective the price will depend on their goals. If they want members to join to boost the number of owners participating, the cost will be inexpensive. I suspect they’ll believe they have something a lot of members will want and they won’t really care how many join, so it won’t surprise me to see a joiner fee we’ll over $1,000. If that’s the case it’s cheaper for me to stand pat and exchange thru Interval for destinations I want.


Thanks. dougp26364, for your candid input.


----------



## brp

geist1223 said:


> Stop going to updates. Stop reading Facebook. Just wait.



I don't have a Facebook account so we're good there. And, as I mentioned above, stop going to updates *for information* (as if that were *ever* useful). Go for perks if they're good enough. That equation has not changed.

Cheers.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@brp is right. After attending countless presentations, I kept seeking whether there was some hidden "special" deal or gems. What I found was that they had corporate minimums e.g. $10,000 - $30,000 (Maui) for an upgrade, their prices are non-negotiable (price lists and the reps/offices are not empowered to negotiate) and that I could always do better spending <$10k for a resale and could keep my existing unit/ points for more vacations (or sell it myself for cash if I wanted to dispose).

With that said, if I owned a dog property that would be difficult to give away, a trade-in may be the way to go so you have something that is easy to dispose of when you are finished. The other reason to go retail is if there is a unicorn unit. My problem is that the unicorns I want have higher minimum upgrades so still better to go resale.


----------



## 90_Min_Sales_Pitch

I was just offered HGV Max for $16,000.  Since I had just closed on a resale purchase 2 weeks prior, this price seemed absurd.  I told the presenter that we'll wait until the Spring for the official details.  He claimed that Max was the offer, and $16K was 15 - 20% discounted from the official offer that is coming.


----------



## dayooper

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> I was just offered HGV Max for $16,000.  Since I had just closed on a resale purchase 2 weeks prior, this price seemed absurd.  I told the presenter that we'll wait until the Spring for the official details.  He claimed that Max was the offer, and $16K was 15 - 20% discounted from the official offer that is coming.



If this is the case (it isn’t), then HGV Max isn’t for me. There have been so many “this is the lowest offer prices” for qualifying purchases that range from $10,000 to $100,000 for a DRI purchase. This is why I don’t go to presentations. The ridiculousness of it all is just too much.


----------



## dougp26364

I’m betting there will be a few pissed off people who literally bought the lies before the official program announcement. Maybe even a couple of lawsuits or complaints to a few state AG’s about the recent sales practices.


----------



## dayooper

dougp26364 said:


> I’m betting there will be a few pissed off people who literally bought the lies before the official program announcement. Maybe even a couple of lawsuits or complaints to a few state AG’s about the recent sales practices.



Unfortunately, they all signed the acknowledgment that they weren’t purchasing for HGV Max, but for the deed/points themselves.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> I was just offered HGV Max for $16,000.  Since I had just closed on a resale purchase 2 weeks prior, this price seemed absurd.  I told the presenter that we'll wait until the Spring for the official details.  He claimed that Max was the offer, and $16K was 15 - 20% discounted from the official offer that is coming.



Hmm...for $16,000 one could:

a) Rent at least 4 times in DRI locations for a week (assuming $4000/week/Hawaii) and use Hilton points to offset the cost from my credit card points. No obligations.

b) Buy a Diamond Resale for ? $3000 ? all-in and trade via an exchange into the other properties.

We could use the resale 5x+ for that $16000. Assume MF is the same across both alternatives and then give away/deedback when done - conservative estimate.

Perhaps someone else has a better way to analyze this?

If true, this sounds very similar to an unenrolled MVC property playbook. You can trade in II but you don't get the points/short stay benefits. But IMHO...lack of flexibility worth $13,000 savings ($16000 - $3000)


----------



## brp

CalGalTraveler said:


> b) Buy a Diamond Resale for ? $3000 ? all-in and trade via an exchange into the other properties.




Since we currently have lots of HGVC points (and 60% more as of a few weeks ago ), I really need to learn how this exchange thing works. Not sure how easy Poipu and KBC would be with very high flexibility, but worth looking not too long from now and figuring out how this actually works.

Is there a good primer thread on this whole exchange thing that someone knows about, since it's not likely in the HGVC forum?

Cheers.


----------



## dougp26364

dayooper said:


> Unfortunately, they all signed the acknowledgment that they weren’t purchasing for HGV Max, but for the deed/points themselves.



True enough, but if enough people report the lies being told and a pattern can be established, they can still be held accountable.
I remember a fight I had with a shop owner once. He had my car for repairs, left it on his lot unlocked and the stereo was stolen from it. He pointed to a sign that said, Not responsible…..” At issue was his disregard for taking normal precautions such as locking my car. He did not exercise normal care while my car was in his care, custody and control, and that’s why he lost his case and had to pay the claim.
They can have the legal wording in the contract, but if they break laws in the presentation, and if enough people tell the same story, they can still be held accountable for misrepresentation despite what’s signed.


----------



## NiteMaire

brp said:


> Is there a good primer thread on this whole exchange thing that someone knows about, since it's not likely in the HGVC forum?


Edited to state:  The below applies to deeded weeks.  You can also use DeX with points. I'm not a points owner so I won't discuss using DeX with points.

I'll provide a basic overview (and look for other threads), but @chemteach and @cindyc could probably give you more info.
DRI assigns tier values to units (1-6 with 6 being the best/highest).  I own a 2BR LO at Sedona Summit.  Depending on the week I reserve it's either tier 4 (high) or tier 5 (peak) for the full 2BR.  If I LO in "Peak" season, 1BR is tier 4 and studio is tier 3.  I can then deposit in DeX and have 5 years to exchange.
Within DeX, you perform a search based on specific resort, area, and/or activity (beaches, ski weeks, etc).  It's not so much about trade power. You see the available inventory (regardless of tier). If you want a tier 6 week at Poipu, then you book it and pay a tier upgrade fee.

So what would it cost me to exchange my Sedona Summit unit for 2 2BR P@P Ocean View (tier 5) weeks?  Presuming I reserve a peak week (which I've been able to do the 3 times I've done it), I'll have a tier 4 and a tier 3:
SS MF: $955
Exchange fee: $298 ($149x2)
Tier upgrade fee: $675 ($225 for 1BR deposit; $450 for studio deposit)
Total:  $1928 or $964/week!

2 2BR Garden View/partial ocean view (tier 4):
$1478 or $739 per week ($450 less for upgrade fees since it's a lower tier)


2 2BR Ocean Front (tier 6):
$2378 or $1189/week! ($450 more in total for tier upgrade).

I think there's the DeX guide posted in a sticky in the DRI Forum.
Edit: here's the link for deeded weeks: https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/destination-xchange-guide_6.pdf


----------



## NiteMaire

brp said:


> Not sure how easy Poipu and KBC would be with very high flexibility, but worth looking not too long from now and figuring out how this actually works.


I just realized I didn't answer this above.  
With high flexibility, it's extremely easy.  Even with very little flexibility, you'd likely find a week.  Within DeX, you can search 2 years out.  Here's the number of units available for deeded week exchanges at the moment:
P@P: 726 
KBC: 1,268


----------



## brp

Thanks for the info. I guess it's still (yet) clear to be how this would apply to using HGVC points to exchange into P@P and KBC. I'd want to use my HGVC points through the exchange (I think they're II now)and get into those properties. I know there are procedures and fees, but I'd want to be using my HGVC points as the primary "payment," plus the fees.

Cheers.


----------



## PigsDad

90_Min_Sales_Pitch said:


> *I was just offered HGV Max for $16,000.*  Since I had just closed on a resale purchase 2 weeks prior, this price seemed absurd.  I told the presenter that we'll wait until the Spring for the official details.  He claimed that Max was the offer, and $16K was 15 - 20% discounted from the official offer that is coming.


Was that really just a one-time fee or were you offered an update or purchase of a new deed for $16K, and a non-binding "promise" that you would be enrolled in a program called "HGV Max", which has not yet been defined?

Good job on not falling for the bait.

Kurt


----------



## youppi

Many compare how much they paid to join the Marriott Destination Club and it should be a similar fee to join HGV Max but it cost nothing to Marriott. Marriott built all the resorts, sold almost all the units as deeded weeks and after that they created the points system. The fee to join the Destination Club was pure profit for Marriott.

There are 405k DRI owners and 326k HGV owners = 731k owners
HGV paid $1.4 billions to acquire DRI If I remember.
$1,400,000,000 / 731,000 = $1,915 per owner
So, a fee to join HGV Max under $2,000 would be a miracle if my number are accurate.


----------



## dougp26364

youppi said:


> Many compare how much they paid to join the Marriott Destination Club and it should be a similar fee to join HGV Max but it cost nothing to Marriott. Marriott built all the resorts, sold almost all the units as deeded weeks and after that they created the points system. The fee to join the Destination Club was pure profit for Marriott.
> 
> There are 405k DRI owners and 326k HGV owners = 731k owners
> HGV paid $1.4 billions to acquire DRI If I remember.
> $1,400,000,000 / 731,000 = $1,915 per owner
> So, a fee to join HGV Max under $2,000 would be a miracle if my number are accurate.



At the moment it’s the closest thing we have for comparison, but you’re correct, it’s not the same.

By comparison, when DRI purchased Sunterra, they charge us $2,995 to join their points program. While I’d love to see a jointer fee of $695 or less, I expect a joiner fee of $2,995 or more.

At this point my gut feeling is Hilton believes they have a hot item a lot of owners will want, and the cost will be higher rather than lower.


----------



## dayooper

dougp26364 said:


> At the moment it’s the closest thing we have for comparison, but you’re correct, it’s not the same.
> 
> By comparison, when DRI purchased Sunterra, they charge us $2,995 to join their points program. While I’d love to see a jointer fee of $695 or less, I expect a joiner fee of $2,995 or more.
> 
> At this point my gut feeling is Hilton believes they have a hot item a lot of owners will want, and the cost will be higher rather than lower.



$3K would be way much for me. Need to know what the membership entails, but that’s too much money just to add resorts that I rarely would go to.


----------



## Mowogo

dougp26364 said:


> At the moment it’s the closest thing we have for comparison, but you’re correct, it’s not the same.
> 
> By comparison, when DRI purchased Sunterra, they charge us $2,995 to join their points program. While I’d love to see a jointer fee of $695 or less, I expect a joiner fee of $2,995 or more.
> 
> At this point my gut feeling is Hilton believes they have a hot item a lot of owners will want, and the cost will be higher rather than lower.


Hilton will think they have a hot item, and the average buyer may fall for it.  My concern is how they handle access to resorts being added to HGVC.  If I get club access, I’m happy.  If I am going to be cut off from new resorts in HGVC (I am fine with no access to HVC) then I start questioning the place of HGVC in my holdings long term knowing current management is trying to put a tighter squeeze than I like.


----------



## dougp26364

dayooper said:


> $3K would be way much for me. Need to know what the membership entails, but that’s too much money just to add resorts that I rarely would go to.



I agree. When we owned 2 weeks at PoloTowers and DRI bought Sunterra, it made sense for us to pay the $2,995 joiner fee. It gave us easy access to a wealth of resorts and locations we didn’t have easy access into except through external exchange with II. It gave us control to choose the resort, check in date and view. All things we didn’t have with II.

I suspect there are more than a few Hilton owners who find themselves in the same position as we were all those years ago. They feel limited by Hilton’s offerings of destinations and will find the addition of all the DRI destinations attractive. Even if the joiner fee is $5,000, it’s less expensive than starting over in another system or even buying a resale week but having to pay the yearly MF on those purchases.


----------



## dougp26364

Mowogo said:


> Hilton will think they have a hot item, and the average buyer may fall for it.  My concern is how they handle access to resorts being added to HGVC.  If I get club access, I’m happy.  If I am going to be cut off from new resorts in HGVC (I am fine with no access to HVC) then I start questioning the place of HGVC in my holdings long term knowing current management is trying to put a tighter squeeze than I like.



We’ve enjoyed Hilton, but for us, they’re expendable. I don’t believe Hilton or DRI owners need to worry about losing access. That’s a scare tactic spewed by salesmen to get owners to buy more. Over 24 years of timeshare ownership and dozens of presentations, I have yet to see loss of access as a serious issue. I have seen minor issues, but not the cataclysmic apocalypse predicted by sales staff trying to get owners to drop another 15, 25 or 50 thousand dollars.


----------



## NiteMaire

dayooper said:


> $3K would be way much for me. Need to know what the membership entails, but that’s too much money just to add resorts that I rarely would go to.


The $$ would give me pause as well.  It would depend on if/how much the inventory in DeX changes. If inventory stays similar to what I can see now, I have no reason to join; especially considering I can see HGVC units in DeX already.  If the inventory I'm most interested in moved to HGV Max, I'd either spend the money to join or divest my soon to be HVC unit.



dougp26364 said:


> We’ve enjoined Hilton, but for us, they’re expendable. I don’t believe Hilton or DRI owners need to worry about losing access.


I completely agree with this.  There will always be inventory available for exchange.  The question is how much/which ones are moved to the new system.  As I posted here or another thread, a DRI CSR told me access will not change.  I realize no one knows, but it was interesting to hear that from a CSR.


----------



## Mongoose

Eileen A. said:


> I'm on the other side - DRI Platinum member (51,500 pts).  Just had an owner update in Las Vegas.  I can join MAX for a mere $43,000.  This includes having to buy an additional 10,000 points.  If I don't "join" I was told my inventory choices will be less because Hilton members will have access to the Diamond resorts.  I guess time will tell how this plays out.


It’s garbage like this that makes me loath DRI.


----------



## Talent312

Mowogo said:


> Hilton will think they have a hot item, and the average buyer may fall for it.



TS companies like to dig thru existing owners' wallets by selling "enhancements."
The booty from their TS sales isn't enuff anymore, and we're the fish on the line.
.


----------



## elysium5

I'm pretty new to the timeshare game. But it seems like every company creates a new system every 5 years and then tells owners, they 'need to pay $x to get access to this new system' or their current units will be worthless


----------



## dioxide45

That is kind of how it goes. Not sure if it is every five years. For some it is perhaps every 10. Truth is your current customer is your best future customer. They were able to convince you once to buy, so they can repackage the product a little and get you to buy again. Or get you to "upgrade".


----------



## CalGalTraveler

elysium5 said:


> I'm pretty new to the timeshare game. But it seems like every company creates a new system every 5 years and then tells owners, they 'need to pay $x to get access to this new system' or their current units will be worthless


This.  A reason why I prefer deeded weeks with points attached to the deed (HGVC, Vistana Mandatory resorts e.g. Westin Kaanapali South) 

I am curious, for DRI owners that upgraded from deeded weeks to the DRI points trust. In hindsight, was it worth it? or would you be better off today with your deeded week?


----------



## brp

elysium5 said:


> I'm pretty new to the timeshare game. But it seems like every company creates a new system every 5 years and then tells owners, they 'need to pay $x to get access to this new system' or their current units will be worthless



I'll give credit to DVC here. When they changed rules they grandfathered peeps who owned before the rule changes and they made no claims that not buying something new would diminish what we had- it would simply limit the future. For example, they recently built new resorts and resale owners could not trade into those (unless you bought a resale there, of course). But we could still do the same things within the original resorts that existed when we first bought, with no diminution.

Yeah, they're doing things to make more money (they are a publicly-traded company and have a responsibility toward shareholders after all). But they don't play the "you'd better give us money or else you may lose what you have" games.

And, for DVC, direct purchase for smaller contracts actually makes sense since resale prices have actually gone up.

Cheers.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Good point @brp. DVC is perhaps the exception to every timeshare rule. (Resale value goes up, they use points trusts, you can easily rent out your points.)  It's nice that they don't play these games. Wish I had bought in when they were less expensive.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

elysium5 said:


> I'm pretty new to the timeshare game. But it seems like every company creates a new system every 5 years and then tells owners, they 'need to pay $x to get access to this new system' or their current units will be worthless


There are killer responses to that. 

First, why should I buy that new product when history shows that in five or ten years you will bring out a new product that will devalue what I just bought?

Second, why should I buy anything from a company when that company has a history of devaluing and stripping value from the things it sells to buyers?


----------



## dayooper

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> There are killer responses to that.
> 
> First, why should I buy that new product when history shows that in five or ten years you will bring out a new product that will devalue what I just bought?
> 
> Second, why should I buy anything from a company when that company has a history of devaluing and stripping value from the things it sells to buyers?



This 1000x over. Just like when they say you better buy developer over resale. Why should I buy something that I will be able to get rid of if I need to?


----------



## elysium5

dioxide45 said:


> That is kind of how it goes. Not sure if it is every five years. For some it is perhaps every 10. Truth is your current customer is your best future customer. They were able to convince you once to buy, so they can repackage the product a little and get you to buy again. Or get you to "upgrade".


In a way, this is a good thing. Hear me out..

Timeshare has great benefits, but there's lots of learning involved. You need to be able to spot a good deal from a dud deal, and do your research. Because it's a difficult strategy, not many people get involved. If more people got involved in timeshare resale, then the good deals would go

Getting a hotel credit card and earning Bonvoy/Hyatt points is easy. So everyone does it. The companies then devalue your points and make them harder to use


----------



## Mowogo

elysium5 said:


> In a way, this is a good thing. Hear me out..
> 
> Timeshare has great benefits, but there's lots of learning involved. You need to be able to spot a good deal from a dud deal, and do your research. Because it's a difficult strategy, not many people get involved. If more people got involved in timeshare resale, then the good deals would go
> 
> Getting a hotel credit card and earning Bonvoy/Hyatt points is easy. So everyone does it. The companies then devalue your points and make them harder to use


I would also say there are a lot fewer resources to learn about maximizing timeshare ownership compared to miles and points.  Most timeshare information people get in the mainstream is either “timeshares are scams” or put out there by timeshare companies themselves.  

I don’t think the good deals would go just because the timeshare market is much smaller.  Some may get slightly harder to access, but the very nature of timeshares ensures that the game is ever evolving.  I got in resale specifically after discovering timeshares served my needs well for an annual trip (Maintenance fees plus exchange fee are less than 2 nights at Excalibur during certain events in Vegas).  I even just booked a 2 bedroom for NYE for a full week a block from the strip for less than NYE at some of the strip resorts.


----------



## Mowogo

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> There are killer responses to that.
> 
> First, why should I buy that new product when history shows that in five or ten years you will bring out a new product that will devalue what I just bought?
> 
> Second, why should I buy anything from a company when that company has a history of devaluing and stripping value from the things it sells to buyers?


Because people believe in the concept of sunk cost, especially when talking about a lot of retail owners.


----------



## elysium5

Mowogo said:


> Because people believe in the concept of sunk cost, especially when talking about a lot of retail owners.


It also helps to fly you to a great hotel for a low price. Then have a slick salesperson give you a 'great offer'


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Mowogo said:


> Because people believe in the concept of sunk cost, especially when talking about a lot of retail owners.


Yep.  You can lead a man to data, but you can't make him think.


----------



## ccwu

CalGalTraveler said:


> Good point @brp. DVC is perhaps the exception to every timeshare rule. (Resale value goes up, they use points trusts, you can easily rent out your points.) It's nice that they don't play these games. Wish I had bought in when they were less expensive.



I think it is the demand and supplies. When HGV and dRI keep expand the resorts and added more points to the pool, and when people want to dump it from resale, lots of supplies in the market. DVC does not have many resorts, and more buyers. Do just like the current housing market, people are willing to pay more to compete the limited points available.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dougp26364

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> There are killer responses to that.
> 
> First, why should I buy that new product when history shows that in five or ten years you will bring out a new product that will devalue what I just bought?
> 
> Second, why should I buy anything from a company when that company has a history of devaluing and stripping value from the things it sells to buyers?



Ive used this logic many times to end a presentation


----------



## Mowogo

ccwu said:


> I think it is the demand and supplies. When HGV and dRI keep expand the resorts and added more points to the pool, and when people want to dump it from resale, lots of supplies in the market. DVC does not have many resorts, and more buyers. Do just like the current housing market, people are willing to pay more to compete the limited points available.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Disney has long had a reality distortion field, however in design they are a company that tends to get a lot of the details right, or at least have enough charm to overpower the negatives.  I’ve loved Exchanging into Saratoga Springs, but honestly can’t justify the costs of joining DVC.


----------



## matsci2

We went to a presentation at the Elara in Vegas yesterday and they insisted that we would lose out on any benefits of HGV MAX unless we exchanged or bought new timeshare, with the cheapest option being a week at the Elara for $13k and $676 mf/yr and 3520 pts/yr. If we didn't, they told us, the price to get MAX would skyrocket after the April rollout.  We just upgraded to Elite in November last year, so it felt like we were being screwed. 

I then called HGVC directly because neither the sales rep or his manager could provide any details, though they assured us that they knew, but were not authorized to tell us. This was a lie, according to the HGVC main office, as the program details have not been finalized nor released. Just say no to this sales tactic.


----------



## pedro47

matsci2 said:


> We went to a presentation at the Elara in Vegas yesterday and they insisted that we would lose out on any benefits of HGV MAX unless we exchanged or bought new timeshare, with the cheapest option being a week at the Elara for $13k and $676 mf/yr and 3520 pts/yr. If we didn't, they told us, the price to get MAX would skyrocket after the April rollout.  We just upgraded to Elite in November last year, so it felt like we were being screwed.
> 
> I then called HGVC directly because neither the sales rep or his manager could provide any details, though they assured us that they knew, but were not authorized to tell us. This was a lie, according to the HGVC main office, as the program details have not been finalized nor released. Just say no to this sales tactic.


This is from a Hilton sales person. LOL


----------



## CalGalTraveler

IMHO...I find the Vegas and Florida HGVC sales offices to be more aggressive than others pulling guilt tactics and cheesy sales tricks. I find the presentations at other locations tend to be more professional similar to MVC presentations we've attended. All tell half-truths but they won't bar the door and harass you if you say not interested.

All HGVC fine if you can say no and know the half-truths.  I cannot compare to Diamond tactics because I never attended Diamond presentations.


----------



## Cyberc

WhenEver I go on a presentation, I always assume that whatever I hear is 100% BS.


----------



## Smclaugh99

T


matsci2 said:


> We went to a presentation at the Elara in Vegas yesterday and they insisted that we would lose out on any benefits of HGV MAX unless we exchanged or bought new timeshare, with the cheapest option being a week at the Elara for $13k and $676 mf/yr and 3520 pts/yr. If we didn't, they told us, the price to get MAX would skyrocket after the April rollout.  We just upgraded to Elite in November last year, so it felt like we were being screwed.
> 
> I then called HGVC directly because neither the sales rep or his manager could provide any details, though they assured us that they knew, but were not authorized to tell us. This was a lie, according to the HGVC main office, as the program details have not been finalized nor released. Just say no to this sales tactic.



That is pretty infuriating, especially since you are Elite - which means you bought at least 14,000 (pre 60% inflation) points RETAIL. That is at least $50,000 (and perhaps upwards of $100,000) that you have committed to HGVC. For the sales people to be dismissive of this level of commitment in order to squeeze out more $$$ is ridiculous.

Sean


----------



## GMan82

Smclaugh99 said:


> T
> 
> 
> That is pretty infuriating, especially since you are Elite - which means you bought at least 14,000 (pre 60% inflation) points RETAIL. That is at least $50,000 (and perhaps upwards of $100,000) that you have committed to HGVC. For the sales people to be dismissive of this level of commitment in order to squeeze out more $$$ is ridiculous.
> 
> Sean


This doesn’t surprise me at all. I bought Elara 8400 pts (old) platinum in Sept 2018. Discovered TUG the slightest bit too late, and resigned myself to making use of a product I’ve now grown to love (and am hoping to expand via resale). Thanksgiving was around the corner and for the after TG period, I managed to get a 3B penthouse unit at Parc Soleil in Orlando. I only had 4 months and didn’t want to spend to save points. Well, I attended an owner update, and mind you was still learning. The sales person after seating me, left to go get my file, and then came back in a huff, doors blasting open “Why didn’t you go straight to Elite? You bought 8400 points! You’re more than halfway there!” She harped and expounded on the benefits of elite. Needless to say, I bought Kohala suites. Thought I was set! Could convert points whenever to Honors etc and never spend a dime at a hotel again.

Boy was I wrong. I rescinded 3 days later. So it doesn’t surprise me that they just wanted to  make another sale despite hitting elite so soon. I was 2 months into my first (and big) purchase and they hit me.


----------



## Smclaugh99

GMan82 said:


> This doesn’t surprise me at all. I bought Elara 8400 pts (old) platinum in Sept 2018. Discovered TUG the slightest bit too late, and resigned myself to making use of a product I’ve now grown to love (and am hoping to expand via resale). Thanksgiving was around the corner and for the after TG period, I managed to get a 3B penthouse unit at Parc Soleil in Orlando. I only had 4 months and didn’t want to spend to save points. Well, I attended an owner update, and mind you was still learning. The sales person after seating me, left to go get my file, and then came back in a huff, doors blasting open “Why didn’t you go straight to Elite? You bought 8400 points! You’re more than halfway there!” She harped and expounded on the benefits of elite. Needless to say, I bought Kohala suites. Thought I was set! Could convert points whenever to Honors etc and never spend a dime at a hotel again.
> 
> Boy was I wrong. I rescinded 3 days later. So it doesn’t surprise me that they just wanted to  make another sale despite hitting elite so soon. I was 2 months into my first (and big) purchase and they hit me.



I have definitely been there. As soon as you become Elite, they hit you with “Elite sucks! You need to be Elite Plus!”  Then right after that, “Being Elite is not worth it unless you are Elite Premier!”  It’s like becoming more of an exclusive club and there is some psychological appeal. But for the sales people to completely blow off Elite in an effort to promote HGV max, that’s pretty crappy.

Sean


----------



## Bbmom1989

I will be grandfathering in to HGV in April.  The question I have is that we have two gift holidays scheduled through Diamond, one in May and one in August.  Are there thoughts as to whether Diamond will honor those gift holidays.  I am leaning toward no since I will no longer have an investment in Diamond.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Smclaugh99 said:


> I have definitely been there. As soon as you become Elite, they hit you with “Elite sucks! You need to be Elite Plus!”  Then right after that, “Being Elite is not worth it unless you are Elite Premier!”  It’s like becoming more of an exclusive club and there is some psychological appeal. But for the sales people to completely blow off Elite in an effort to promote HGV max, that’s pretty crappy.
> 
> Sean


Who knows? Perhaps HGV Max will be free (or minimal enrollment cost) to Elites and developer purchased deeds. That would be the right thing to do. We won't know for sure until the April program announcement.


----------



## dayooper

CalGalTraveler said:


> Who knows? Perhaps HGV Max will be free (or minimal enrollment cost) to Elites and developer purchased deeds. That would be the right thing to do. We won't know for sure until the April program announcement.



My guess is that Elite Premiere and maybe Elite Plus will be grandfathered. I believe there will be a cost for most, though. Then again, this might give some of those that haven’t given HGVC any sales since the upgraded a reason to. There’s too much money to be made and I think the first quarter has been a bust so far. People weren’t buying because they were worried they would have to buy more to be part of HGV Max. That’s why they started offering the grandfathering of deeds bought after Jan 14.

Whether it’s purchasing a deed or purchasing the membership, most that want to join will have a cost. I believe you absolutely correct in that we all need to just wait until the program is announced. The rumor mill from sales weasels are making owners stressed and angry (just what they want to have happen). Fear of Missing Out is hard at play.


----------



## pedro47

This is why we follow Warren Buffett, chairman and CEO of Berkshire Hathaway.
These are his words and a direct quote: "We employ decent and  talented people - *NO JERKS."*' In 8 words, Warren Buffett reveals a crucial truth most people never quit believe.

Timeshare sale people are a total difference breed.IMHO


----------



## elysium5

Smclaugh99 said:


> T
> 
> 
> That is pretty infuriating, especially since you are Elite - which means you bought at least 14,000 (pre 60% inflation) points RETAIL. That is at least $50,000 (and perhaps upwards of $100,000) that you have committed to HGVC. For the sales people to be dismissive of this level of commitment in order to squeeze out more $$$ is ridiculous.
> 
> Sean


You go to a timeshare presentation. They tell you that the prices of hotels go up over time (true) and you can avoid this inflation buy buying a timeshare program now for only $20,000

5 years later

You go to an owner's update. "We created a new program. Your old deed is now worthless. You need to pay $20,000 for new deeds. You can then avoid all future hotel price inflation"

10 years later

...

_I feel like this might be an intentional way to get more money out of us?!_


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Ha. I don't know if this was HGV or another developer but remember the pitch for "Vacation 401k?...aka "buy this now and you will have inexpensive retirement accommodations..." - Of course they never tell you that MFs suffer from inflation too.

With that said, I was just pricing out rooms at Elara in Vegas using club points and it is a good deal compared to renting off Hilton.com or other hotel sites. Hotel prices have skyrocketed.


----------



## escanoe

Another thing I wonder is if someone makes a developer purchase in the future, will the HGV Max enrollment transfer on the resale market. I almost care more about that (hoping it transfers) than what the buy-in price is. 

I would almost quit reading new posts on this thread if there was a promise to have a new thread when we have real, factual information from HGV on HGV Max.


----------



## magmue

> ... pricing out rooms at Elara in Vegas using club points and it is a good deal compared to renting off Hilton.com or other hotel sites. Hotel prices have skyrocketed.


I fear we will all have sticker shock come December when we see our MFs for 2023.


----------



## dayooper

CalGalTraveler said:


> Ha. I don't know if this was HGV or another developer but remember the pitch for "Vacation 401k?...aka "buy this now and you will have inexpensive retirement accommodations..." - Of course they never tell you that MFs suffer from inflation too.
> 
> With that said, I was just pricing out rooms at Elara in Vegas using club points and it is a good deal compared to renting off Hilton.com or other hotel sites. Hotel prices have skyrocketed.



Last summer, we booked a 3 bedroom at Elara Monday - Saturday (first week in August). I periodically checked the price on Hilton.com. That room would have cost us $8000 about month before we were to arrive. Then it was gone. When we booked it on February, it was $5500. Never would have paid either price, but with our points, it was $855 (cost of the points x $0.16 MF’s and pro-rating my dues). That’s just a wee bit better!


----------



## brp

Luxor can be had for about $35/day on a  weekday. Just sayin' 

Cheers.


----------



## alexinorlando

brp said:


> Luxor can be had for about $35/day on a  weekday. Just sayin'
> 
> Cheers.


Yes plus a $35 a night resort fee + $30 a night parking +13.5% hotel tax rate on top of all that and don’t forget the $8 bottles of water and no mini fridge or not even a microwave.

Timeshare me please!


----------



## dayooper

brp said:


> Luxor can be had for about $35/day on a  weekday. Just sayin'
> 
> Cheers.



Can a Luxor 3 bedroom with a full kitchen and free parking be had for $35 a night? I think $171 a night is pretty good for that room.


----------



## brp

alexinorlando said:


> Yes plus a $35 a night resort fee + $30 a night parking +13.5% hotel tax rate on top of all that and don’t forget the $8 bottles of water and no mini fridge or not even a microwave.
> 
> Timeshare me please!



Well, first, we don't drink the bottles even for free to save on plastic waste. Tap is fine.

Second (and this would not apply to all, of course) - MGM Gold (from Hyatt status) waives the resort fee. And we don't have a car in Vegas. So under $40 a night - really very cheap.

But, even with the fees, it's still a whole lot less than the paid rate at Elara. Of course, that's what the points are for 

Cheers.


----------



## elysium5

CalGalTraveler said:


> Ha. I don't know if this was HGV or another developer but remember the pitch for "Vacation 401k?...aka "buy this now and you will have inexpensive retirement accommodations..." - Of course they never tell you that MFs suffer from inflation too.
> 
> With that said, I was just pricing out rooms at Elara in Vegas using club points and it is a good deal compared to renting off Hilton.com or other hotel sites. Hotel prices have skyrocketed.


Joking aside, right now hotel price inflation is going through the roof. MFs should be limited to the rising costs of expenses

So buying the right timeshare should save you money in the long run


----------



## elysium5

dayooper said:


> Last summer, we booked a 3 bedroom at Elara Monday - Saturday (first week in August). I periodically checked the price on Hilton.com. That room would have cost us $8000 about month before we were to arrive. Then it was gone. When we booked it on February, it was $5500. Never would have paid either price, but with our points, it was $855 (cost of the points x $0.16 MF’s and pro-rating my dues). That’s just a wee bit better!


Also with timeshare, I find myself booking better rooms. I would never pay rack rate for a 3 bed property, but with timeshare I can justify it


----------



## dougp26364

dayooper said:


> Last summer, we booked a 3 bedroom at Elara Monday - Saturday (first week in August). I periodically checked the price on Hilton.com. That room would have cost us $8000 about month before we were to arrive. Then it was gone. When we booked it on February, it was $5500. Never would have paid either price, but with our points, it was $855 (cost of the points x $0.16 MF’s and pro-rating my dues). That’s just a wee bit better!



When you look at MF cost only this is true. If you factor in the original cost (varies between resale/developer et…) and the very real time value of money, the picture isn’t as pretty.

Let’s just take $20,000 and  divide by 10 years. Now you have $2,000 plus you’re MF cost of $855, or $2,855. Still a good deal. But if you’d invested that $20,000 even reasonably wisely, you’d have a gross of $40,000 to $50,000. The cost goes up to between $4,855 and $5,855. Of course this is assuming you bought in at $20,000. If you bought resale, the numbers look a LOT better and you’re still ahead of booking direct. If you bought retail you’re more likely to have spent greater than $30,000 and things look much worse.


----------



## dougp26364

elysium5 said:


> Also with timeshare, I find myself booking better rooms. I would never pay rack rate for a 3 bed property, but with timeshare I can justify it



I don’t believe I’ve ever paid rack rate for a hotel room


----------



## mabrand

ccwu said:


> It is hard to book the DRI two top Virginia Beach Oceanaire resort next the Hilton Garden Inn on the beach front. I am DRI platinum member and can book 14 month in advance. But I could hardly find summer week. (If I find one, I would grab it when I see it.). The fixed week owners have priority. Lots of the deeded fixed week owner never join DRI and hold on to their fixed week. Oceanaire is close to Hilton standard. We goes there often in the summer. You can see the resort in Hilton.com (with note: coming soon).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agree with your assessment on trying to get into Diamond's Virginia Beach properties.  Just spent three nights down at Ocean Beach Club (we are also a DRI platinum member) where they held the room keys "hostage" until they finished trying to get us to do an update!  We will no longer do any updates.


----------



## dayooper

dougp26364 said:


> When you look at MF cost only this is true. If you factor in the original cost (varies between resale/developer et…) and the very real time value of money, the picture isn’t as pretty.
> 
> Let’s just take $20,000 and  divide by 10 years. Now you have $2,000 plus you’re MF cost of $855, or $2,855. Still a good deal. But if you’d invested that $20,000 even reasonably wisely, you’d have a gross of $40,000 to $50,000. The cost goes up to between $4,855 and $5,855. Of course this is assuming you bought in at $20,000. If you bought resale, the numbers look a LOT better and you’re still ahead of booking direct. If you bought retail you’re more likely to have spent greater than $30,000 and things look much worse.



Yup, that's where I'm at. I'm all resale. I can look at it a couple of ways. I can amortize the cost of the deed ($6000 total on my first) throughout my ownership, or I can use my first 2 trips and call it even. Those trips (Myrtle Beach and Hilton Head) more than made up for the cost of the deed plus the MF's for those years. We are just now breaking in our newest purchase ($4000 total for a 2 bedroom platinum at the Boulevard) so we will be "underwater" for this year, but our Hilton Head reservations (2 units) should bring us up into the positive again.

I would never pay the rack rate shown on the Hilton website, we just wouldn't go or have alternate accommodations. We never traveled much before our ownership as we had a hard time with smaller hotel rooms so we just wouldn't go. We rented cabins in Northern Michigan (hit and miss on quality) or even renting a travel trailer (not right for our family, too many "city folk" in our household) and never found the right way. We just didn't vacation much. Our resale ownership allows us to travel as a family to great locations to have great vacations.

My son is joining a college bowling team this coming fall and one of their tournaments is in Vegas (he will probably be on JV as a freshman so he might not go) and I will be comparing open season to the deals I can get from the resorts. My guess is they will be staying at South Point as that's where the bowling alley they hold all of the tournaments are. I am very spoiled for room size now and am actually dreading a hotel room so I just might book a 1 bedroom open season (if available) for my stay.


----------



## Eric B

mabrand said:


> Just spent three nights down at Ocean Beach Club (we are also a DRI platinum member) where they held the room keys "hostage" until they finished trying to get us to do an update!



Sure makes me want to cough up something extra in fees in order to be able to book into DRI resorts.  Sign me up!


----------



## elysium5

dougp26364 said:


> I don’t believe I’ve ever paid rack rate for a hotel room


There are some times where it is worthwhile. Often I find it better to book 1 year early, rather than wait for a sale


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

CalGalTraveler said:


> Ha. I don't know if this was HGV or another developer but remember the pitch for "Vacation 401k?...aka "buy this now and you will have inexpensive retirement accommodations..." - Of course they never tell you that MFs suffer from inflation too.
> 
> With that said, I was just pricing out rooms at Elara in Vegas using club points and it is a good deal compared to renting off Hilton.com or other hotel sites. Hotel prices have skyrocketed.



I have heard the 401V pitch from both Hilton and Marriott.  Of course the big problem with this approach is that as hotel room rate increase, the hotel chains increase the points required to book that room as well.    I don't remember the last time the timeshare companies increased the conversion ratio to covert timeshare points to hotel points...


----------



## GMan82

1Kflyerguy said:


> I have heard the 401V pitch from both Hilton and Marriott.  Of course the big problem with this approach is that as hotel room rate increase, the hotel chains increase the points required to book that room as well.    I don't remember the last time the timeshare companies increased the conversion ratio to covert timeshare points to hotel points...



The 401v analogy is laughable. Hilton uses dynamic award pricing; so now that the hotel price and points cost are tied, it represents a devaluation. I believe Marriot is also switching to dynamic pricing, too. 

Also, the conversion rates to Honors aren't really worth it. It's what I told the agent today during my NYC owner update. Heck, if they keep throwing 60k honors points at me, they're funding my hotel stays. It was a short 35 minutes, too. I'll probably post about it separately, but she did mention HGV max and suggested a buy-in of $7k for those of us not grandfathered into it via a new purchase between Jan 1 and March 31.


----------



## dayooper

1Kflyerguy said:


> I have heard the 401V pitch from both Hilton and Marriott.  Of course the big problem with this approach is that as hotel room rate increase, the hotel chains increase the points required to book that room as well.    I don't remember the last time the timeshare companies increased the conversion ratio to covert timeshare points to hotel points...



There was a thread back in 2018 where it was mentioned that it was used by an HGVC salesman. Buying more points to use for HHonors or any of the rewards (cruises, flights ect) is such a waste of money. So much cheaper to pay with cash.


----------



## brp

dayooper said:


> There was a thread back in 2018 where it was mentioned that it was used by an HGVC salesman. Buying more points to use for HHonors or any of the rewards (cruises, flights ect) is such a waste of money. So much cheaper to pay with cash.



Definitely HGVC. We've heard it from them at least once 

Cheers.


----------



## pedro47

DRI, maintenance fees are already higher than Hilton Grand Vacation Club.IMHO


----------



## ccwu

pedro47 said:


> DRI, maintenance fees are already higher than Hilton Grand Vacation Club.IMHO



Agree. DRI MF is about $0.19 per point. HGV is variable. I am paying 0.12 per point for the new points. But the front end cost when purchased is much higher. We bought both from developers. The DRI is pure points. HGV is deed, in order to get the highest points platinum season with smallest premier villa (MF is per square ft) you pay premier price in the front. I think in the long run you average out. There is very few premier HGV on the resale market. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nowaker

escanoe said:


> Another thing I wonder is if someone makes a developer purchase in the future, will the HGV Max enrollment transfer on the resale market. I almost care more about that (hoping it transfers) than what the buy-in price is.


Same here. I wonder how this will work. And I'm afraid only "new" deeds will be HGV Max eligible. That is - existing ClubPoints from "old" deeds can only book you into "old" HGVC properties, while MaxPoints from "new" deeds can book you to both "old" HGVC and "new" DRI properties. Which will make the whole sales pitch true on paper (need deed gets you access to new inventory!!!) but false in its spirit (you now acquired 1,600 old / 2,560 new points Elara deed with shit MF-per-point for $15k, and you can't even get a week in 2 BR with that because you only have 1,600/2,560 MaxPoints? welp!). If that turns out to be true, I can't imagine how mad folks who purchased "new" deeds will be. And hopefully there is a one-time fee to enroll an "old" deed in new points. If the price is reasonable, I would consider enrolling a deed or two in Max. Just enough to get access to one or two week at DRI resorts per year.


----------



## brp

Nowaker said:


> Same here. I wonder how this will work. And I'm afraid only "new" deeds will be HGV Max eligible. That is - existing ClubPoints from "old" deeds can only book you into "old" HGVC properties, while MaxPoints from "new" deeds can book you to both "old" HGVC and "new" DRI properties.



I have very little doubt that this is a place where HGVC will finally make the distinction between Developer and Resale that most (all?) other TS conglomerates have imposed. It really does seem a natural (and easy) distinction.

Cheers.


----------



## GMan82

brp said:


> I have very little doubt that this is a place where HGVC will finally make the distinction between Developer and Resale that most (all?) other TS conglomerates have imposed. It really does seem a natural (and easy) distinction.
> 
> Cheers.


I’m just hoping that if that happens that they honor the developer deeds some of us have from prior to this merger. Otherwise, it would be a slap in the face to those of us that did (mistakenly) buy direct our first time. The two salespeople I’ve sat with so far both have indicated a buy-in for all prior owners into HGV Max. In salesperson parlance, only deeds purchased now will come with the Max option.


----------



## dayooper

GMan82 said:


> I’m just hoping that if that happens that they honor the developer deeds some of us have from prior to this merger. Otherwise, it would be a slap in the face to those of us that did (mistakenly) buy direct our first time. The two salespeople I’ve sat with so far both have indicated a buy-in for all prior owners into HGV Max. In salesperson parlance, only deeds purchased now will come with the Max option.



I can’t imagine a salesman saying no, you need to wait and purchase a membership after April1st. It will be better for you.

I know things can change, but Mark Wang has said in investor calls that members will be able to purchase as a stand alone.

Could there have to be a developer purchase needed? Sure, but the precedent isn’t there. Would they turn down money from a resale owner? Could be, but how will they determine who is eligible? Would any developer purchase work, even if it was a decade ago and you have bought resale since?  Not so sure.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

dayooper said:


> I can’t imagine a salesman saying no, you need to wait and purchase a membership after April1st. It will be better for you.
> 
> I know things can change, but Mark Wang has said in investor calls that members will be able to purchase as a stand alone.
> 
> Could there have to be a developer purchase needed? Sure, but the precedent isn’t there. Would they turn down money from a resale owner? Could be, but how will they determine who is eligible? Would any developer purchase work, even if it was a decade ago and you have bought resale since?  Not so sure.



Their sales systems know which purchases are developer and which are resale. All the other developers take this into account. it is only fair to give a deeper discount (or free) to such purchases to participate.


----------



## HGVC Lover

CalGalTraveler said:


> Their sales systems know which purchases are developer and which are resale. All the other developers take this into account. it is only fair to give a deeper discount (or free) to such purchases to participate.


I am not so sure about that.....we have been with HGVC for over 25 years and every time we go to a sales presentation they do not know we are all resale until we tell them.  Even the deed shows what the property was originally purchased for not what we paid for them.   I am sure they would have an incredible mess on their hands trying to sort all of that out.


----------



## brp

HGVC Lover said:


> I am not so sure about that.....we have been with HGVC for over 25 years and every time we go to a sales presentation they do not know we are all resale until we tell them.  Even the deed shows what the property was originally purchased for not what we paid for them.   I am sure they would have an incredible mess on their hands trying to sort all of that out.



They do know that we're resale (they say so). I also think that they may not know what *we* paid, just the initial price. But they definitely have access to info about our being resale.

Cheers.


----------



## Cyberc

Nowaker said:


> Same here. I wonder how this will work. And I'm afraid only "new" deeds will be HGV Max eligible. That is - existing ClubPoints from "old" deeds can only book you into "old" HGVC properties, while MaxPoints from "new" deeds can book you to both "old" HGVC and "new" DRI properties. Which will make the whole sales pitch true on paper (need deed gets you access to new inventory!!!) but false in its spirit (you now acquired 1,600 old / 2,560 new points Elara deed with shit MF-per-point for $15k, and you can't even get a week in 2 BR with that because you only have 1,600/2,560 MaxPoints? welp!). If that turns out to be true, I can't imagine how mad folks who purchased "new" deeds will be. And hopefully there is a one-time fee to enroll an "old" deed in new points. If the price is reasonable, I would consider enrolling a deed or two in Max. Just enough to get access to one or two week at DRI resorts per year.



Honestly I don't care if my "old" deed don't give me access to DRI. I bought HGV for HGV not for anything else. However it would be nice to have access to other properties, but if I don't it won't trigger my FOMO. Maybe I'm being naive but as long as the Max club don't cause extra fees to non Max members they can keep it.


----------



## dayooper

Cyberc said:


> Honestly I don't care if my "old" deed don't give me access to DRI. I bought HGV for HGV not for anything else. However it would be nice to have access to other properties, but if I don't it won't trigger my FOMO. Maybe I'm being naive but as long as the Max club don't cause extra fees to non Max members they can keep it.



This is exactly how I feel.


----------



## Talent312

Cyberc said:


> Honestly I don't care if my "old" deed don't give me access to DRI. I bought HGV for HGV not for anything else...



I concur... or as Dayooper said, "Eggsactly."


----------



## brp

I'll third @Cyberc's comments. It would be nice, but I'm not gonna go out of my way. What it really did was have me learn some about DRI and some locations we might like. So, may buy them resale after things shake out and just keep it separate.

Cheers.


----------



## dayooper

CalGalTraveler said:


> Their sales systems know which purchases are developer and which are resale. All the other developers take this into account. it is only fair to give a deeper discount (or free) to such purchases to participate.



Why should the other systems have an effect on what HGVC does? Each system is different and the majority have of them turned to a trust. HGVC isn’t a trust and it’s balance of low cost MF’s to high level of accommodations might be thrown out of whack if you start to limiting owners. Sure HGVC could restrict membership into HGV Max to developer bought deeds, but how far do they go down in restricting? Does someone who bought a deed from HGVC but sold it to buy better ones resale count? Does someone who only bought a small deed a decade ago get to join? I see a litany of issues with HGVC if they start to make those delineations.

There are some resorts that do know retail and some that don’t. This past summer, I had the Elara sales manager call me before our stay and ask if we were resale. The only reason he questioned that was he saw I had not used my membership from when I bought the deed in 1994 until we took our first trip in 2019 (our first year of usage). The concierge at Elara asked my why I hadn’t been to an owners update since 1994 (when the original owner bought the deed). I was a college student in 1994 and in no position to drop $12K on a weeks worth of vacation. Neither knew for sure I was resale (the Elara sales manager suspected it). Since I wasn’t hounded to go to a sales presentation at our other trips (Myrtle Beach, Hilton ahead and Chicago), I don’t know what they saw. Elara sure didn’t know. Maybe since they aren’t actively selling The Flamingo anymore, they don‘t mark those as resale?

Quite frankly, like @Cyberc says above, as long as it doesn‘t affect my ability to use the system like I do now, they can restrict all they want. I didn’t buy DRI for a reason. If they do change the system to where you have join HGV Max to keep booking the resorts you want, then they will have a huge amount of unhappy customers, many of  whom may default when they can’t sell. Guess who takes the brunt of that? We owners in increased MF’s.

Finally, I wish people would just stop going to owners updates for HGV Max info. The only thing the salesman are doing is creating uncertainty and stress. The HGVC Facebook groups are nearly unreadable with all of the complaining, anger and threats of class action lawsuits. These salesman (and HGVC in general) love the turmoil. With all of the different outrageous minimum prices of deeds to join, they are causing confusion, anxiety and stress (gaslighting in a way). Owners don’t know what to believe. When they come out with the program and if the cost is not nearly as bad as what was been said, people will line up to purchase even if the cost is still too high. It will seem lower and many will think it’s a steal.


----------



## NiteMaire

dayooper said:


> Quite frankly, like @Cyberc says above, as long as it doesn‘t affect my ability to use the system like I do now, they can restrict all they want.


Agree wholeheartedly with this...especially considering I used DeX to exchange into The Grand Islander just yesterday.


dayooper said:


> The HGVC Facebook groups are nearly unreadable with all of the complaining, anger and threats of class action lawsuits.


Yes, almost makes me wish I didn't join some of them after HGVC acquired DRI.  I responded to a few of them telling them to wait until program details are released.  However, there are so many of those posts, you could spend the entire day responding to them.


----------



## Mongoose

elysium5 said:


> Joking aside, right now hotel price inflation is going through the roof. MFs should be limited to the rising costs of expenses
> 
> So buying the right timeshare should save you money in the long run


At resale prices, yes.  Not at developer prices.


----------



## dayooper

NiteMaire said:


> Yes, almost makes me wish I didn't join some of them after HGVC acquired DRI.  I responded to a few of them telling them to wait until program details are released.  However, there are so many of those posts, you could spend the entire day responding to them.



One of the largest (the largest I believe) had the administrator mentioning they were going to ban talk of HGV Max until official news came out and that group is still very much so readable. The resale board isn't bad either, but the others I don't read anymore.


----------



## Nowaker

dayooper said:


> Neither knew for sure I was resale (the Elara sales manager suspected it). Since I wasn’t hounded to go to a sales presentation at our other trips (Myrtle Beach, Hilton ahead and Chicago), I don’t know what they saw. Elara sure didn’t know.



I think their "main" printout is a statement of account, but doesn't indicate whether it's resale or not. At my yesterday's owner's update at Parc Soleil, their printout didn't have that information, and I they filled in the blanks by asking. (eg. how long you've been an owner, from which they can tell if a deed is resale or not) 

However, Hawaii salespeople do know because it seems they have a process in place to identify guests that are eligible for owner's update before you arrive. What concierge sees is eligible / not eligible based on a precomputed list of guests (no active way to query your current status). They don't know more, but they did contact their upper managers from Oahu (where the head office for sales is) and they provided a very precise answer as to why I'm not eligible, and when I will be eligible (90 day after the acquisition date of my HGVC UK purchase). So - there's someone with a brain in Hawaiian head office that looks through information that is normally not available to line salespeople. (see my report: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/h...like-in-the-online-portal.335061/post-2747430)


----------



## hurnik

GT75 said:


> I agree with @dougp26364.   I just read on one of the FB groups that the minimum purchase/upgrade is 4K HGV pts to be part of this new HGV Max program.   So that is ~ $28K minimum.
> 
> I will be at Sunrise Lodge in less than 3 weeks.    I will see what I can find out from an owner's update (as long as they offer $250 MF credit).



So do we know yet if any resales purchase of HGV/DRI (after the Jan 14, 2022) program would be eligible to join HGV Max?  If so, would seem 4k could be had for $1000 easily for HGV.  Dunno about DRI.


----------



## dayooper

hurnik said:


> So do we know yet if any resales purchase of HGV/DRI (after the Jan 14, 2022) program would be eligible to join HGV Max?  If so, would seem 4k could be had for $1000 easily for HGV.  Dunno about DRI.



No one outside of corporate know what HGV Max is and who will be able to join. The only thing we do know is that anybody who bought from HGVC starting on Jan 14 will be able to enroll into HGV Max with no extra cost. Everything else is conjecture and speculation. Hopefully we will know in a few weeks.


----------



## NiteMaire

dayooper said:


> The only thing we do know is that anybody who bought from HGVC starting on Jan 14 will be able to enroll into HGV Max with no extra cost.


It's amazing how many companies reward new customers/members/owners while excluding long-time, loyal customers/members/owners.  I get it that long-time owners can buy another unit, but that shouldn't required if new owners are grandfathered; then again, it's a new program with new rules.  I think AT&T finally understood deals like these were not good for existing customers; as now most, if not all, deals apply to new and existing customers...at least I think it's AT&T.  It'll definitely be interesting when HGVC releases the details.  As you stated, we don't know anything outside of the Jan 14 enrollment so I'm not implying anything with regard to HGV Max future membership.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

I have some interest in the new added resorts, but would not buy into anything until the details of ownership and access are public.  As for buying after the program is officially launched, it will depend on what locations are available and the costs.  But to be honest most of my vacation destinations are well covered with my HGV and MVC ownerships.

I am probably more likely to buy into the new program if i can add the access the information and enrollment via the website.  It will need to be very compelling to for me to attend a presentation and buy an additional deed.


----------



## GT75

hurnik said:


> So do we know yet if any resales purchase of HGV/DRI (after the Jan 14, 2022) program would be eligible to join HGV Max? If so, would seem 4k could be had for $1000 easily for HGV.


I actually didn't find out very much that I thought was useful (or didn't believe everything that I was told).     We don't know what the program will be yet and also what will qualify to be part of the program.    Hopefully, on April 1st, everything will be revealed.


----------



## brp

GT75 said:


> Hopefully, on April 1st, everything will be revealed.


Hmmm. Interesting choice of day for this...

Cheers.


----------



## GT75

brp said:


> Hmmm. Interesting choice of day for this...


Good point, I didn't think about that.


----------



## primeg

5 Fun Hilton Vacation Club Locations to Explore | Hilton Grand Vacations
					

We've got great vacation spots throughout the United States for every type of traveler -- read this for unforgettable vacation ideas.




					www.hiltongrandvacations.com
				



Here is some branding


----------



## dougp26364

1Kflyerguy said:


> I have some interest in the new added resorts, but would not buy into anything until the details of ownership and access are public.  As for buying after the program is officially launched, it will depend on what locations are available and the costs.  But to be honest most of my vacation destinations are well covered with my HGV and MVC ownerships.
> 
> I am probably more likely to buy into the new program if i can add the access the information and enrollment via the website.  It will need to be very compelling to for me to attend a presentation and buy an additional deed.



We are in the exact same boat, except we were once DRI owners s9 I have familiarity with the locations and brand quality.
The numbers bandied about have ranged from $7,000 to $10,000…… or buy something new. If those are the rates to have access, I believe it’s an easy pass for us. DRI has nothing we’d use on a regular basis. We’d maybe go to Sedona every three or four years. Same with Santa Fe NM. Neither are worth paying thousands more for access. Hundreds maybe, thousands it’s a hard no.


----------



## jd18

I (current HGVC owner) took the bait and bought in within the grandfathering period.  I'm hoping HGV Max will give me more meaningful access to the DRI inventory over the longer term.  I realize it was just this month's "once in a lifetime" opportunity, but the investment wasn't huge.  Assuming HGV Max ends up being desirable, I don't foresee a cheaper way of getting in.


----------



## Nowaker

jd18 said:


> I realize it was just this month's "once in a lifetime" opportunity


You don't know that.


----------



## Mongoose

jd18 said:


> I (current HGVC owner) took the bait and bought in within the grandfathering period.  I'm hoping HGV Max will give me more meaningful access to the DRI inventory over the longer term.  I realize it was just this month's "once in a lifetime" opportunity, but the investment wasn't huge.  Assuming HGV Max ends up being desirable, I don't foresee a cheaper way of getting in.


 Duplicate


----------



## Mongoose

jd18 said:


> I (current HGVC owner) took the bait and bought in within the grandfathering period.  I'm hoping HGV Max will give me more meaningful access to the DRI inventory over the longer term.  I realize it was just this month's "once in a lifetime" opportunity, but the investment wasn't huge.  Assuming HGV Max ends up being desirable, I don't foresee a cheaper way of getting in.


What were you promised vs what was in the contract?


----------



## PigsDad

Mongoose said:


> What were you promised vs what was in the contract?


I can answer that:  nothing.  With that said, do I think HGV will grandfather recent purchases into to "Max" (or whatever it may be called)?  Probably.  But I suspect after all of the dust settles, there will be less expensive ways to join "Max" vs. rushing to buy a retail week now.  Of course, everything about this program is conjecture, as _nothing_ has officially been released or announced.

Kurt


----------



## jd18

Mongoose said:


> What were you promised vs what was in the contract?


Promised all my HGV investment would be grandfathered into HGV Max.  I would receive an email on April 4th and only need to click "opt in".  That's about it other than a lot of paperwork and legal stuff that no one understands.  Not sure what I actually trust and anytime you make a purchase with a timeshare organization like HGV, it is always a gamble.  My best interest and their best interest are NEVER going to be the same thing.  My bet was that I would want to be in as an HGV Max member, and that this was my least cost option.  Whether either of those bets are true, only time will tell.  I know they (HGV) are smarter than me on the timeshare business.  My job is to ensure that I am the smart one about what works for me.  Wish me luck!


----------



## jd18

PigsDad said:


> I can answer that:  nothing.  With that said, do I think HGV will grandfather recent purchases into to "Max" (or whatever it may be called)?  Probably.  But I suspect after all of the dust settles, there will be less expensive ways to join "Max" vs. rushing to buy a retail week now.  Of course, everything about this program is conjecture, as _nothing_ has officially been released or announced.
> 
> Kurt


You are absolutely correct Kurt.  "Less expensive ways" is really the only discussion point (assuming HGV Max is worth it to you in the first place).


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward

jd18 said:


> I (current HGVC owner) took the bait and bought in within the grandfathering period.  I'm hoping HGV Max will give me more meaningful access to the DRI inventory over the longer term.  I realize it was just this month's "once in a lifetime" opportunity, but the investment wasn't huge.  Assuming HGV Max ends up being desirable, I don't foresee a cheaper way of getting in.


 "I realize it was just this month's "once in a lifetime" opportunity" . . . I think that a more accurate description would be "once in a_ lie_time". . . (No offence intended, jd18)


----------



## Bbmom1989

What is considered not much of an investment?  We went to the meeting, being with Diamond, and was offered the grandfather in for 10,000 point purchase which came out to $40,000.   We initially agreed and have now rescinded.  I am just not comfortable with the whole process right now.



Ralph Sir Edward said:


> "I realize it was just this month's "once in a lifetime" opportunity" . . . I think that a more accurate description would be "once in a_ lie_time". . . (No offence intended, jd18)


----------



## GMan82

Bbmom1989 said:


> What is considered not much of an investment?  We went to the meeting, being with Diamond, and was offered the grandfather in for 10,000 point purchase which came out to $40,000.   We initially agreed and have now rescinded.  I am just not comfortable with the whole process right now.


$40k sounds like a normal sale rather than something with the express purpose of grandfathering you into this yet undisclosed program. They’re using this new HGV Max as a sales tactic pretty much everywhere. It’s the topic du jour.


----------



## dkern1

Did they explain to you how many points you need to own in order to be at the HGV Max level? We attended an update in February at Parc and mainly they concentrated on us acquiring additional points to have us reach Max, but they could not give us a clear answer on the specifics of Max and if Max was necessary to access these Diamond Resorts?  Truthfully the price was not too bad compared to other pitches and they offered us a lot of Bonus points, but we said no. We did buy a VIP package so our pricing would be locked in just in case this was a better option price-wise then what we may get offered in the future to access Max.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Bbmom1989 said:


> What is considered not much of an investment?


Few timeshare purchases - and none from developers - are an "investment", at least in financial terms.  An investment means that you expect a monetary return that provides a rate of return on your capital outlay.  That doesn't happen with timeshare.

The rationale to buy a timeshare is as a tool to facilitate vacation and travel.  Only in that sense can it be considered an "investment", in the same way that a gym membership can be considered an investment in your health and well-being.


----------



## HGVC Lover

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Few timeshare purchases - and none from developers - are an "investment", at least in financial terms.  An investment means that you expect a monetary return that provides a rate of return on your capital outlay.  That doesn't happen with timeshare.
> 
> The rationale to buy a timeshare is as a tool to facilitate vacation and travel.  Only in that sense can it be considered an "investment", in the same way that a gym membership can be considered an investment in your health and well-being.



Well said and so true......we have a find who sales HGVC's and they see it simply as selling time and nothing more......even though that is not how they pitch it to the buyers.  I like the gym metaphor....good one!!


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Where else on the planet can a salesperson describe a program with no details, no written benefits and a disclaimer from the corporation and people still buy?


----------



## jd18

For personal reasons, I will stick by my use of the word "investment".  Gym metaphor is accurate.


----------



## youppi

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Few timeshare purchases - and none from developers - are an "investment", at least in financial terms.  An investment means that you expect a monetary return that provides a rate of return on your capital outlay.  That doesn't happen with timeshare.
> 
> The rationale to buy a timeshare is as a tool to facilitate vacation and travel.  Only in that sense can it be considered an "investment", in the same way that a gym membership can be considered an investment in your health and well-being.


You may consider a timeshare as an investment over a long period of time when you travel all the time to resort with a high rental cost vs your MF+exchange fees.
Example:
2 weeks of vacation in a 2 bdrm at a Marriott's resort in Maui would cost probably a minimum of 2x$3,000=$6,000 as rental price.
1 week non Hawaii 4 bdrm LO (2x 2 bdrm) timeshare with annual MF + 2x II exchange fees: $2,000.
So, an annual investment of $2,000 gives a Return On Investment (ROI) of 200% ($4,000) (pay $2,000, get $6,000 in value, save $4,000) when the 4 bdrm LO (2x2 bdrm) is exchanged for 2 weeks in a 2 bdrm Marriott's Maui or any resorts somewhere else with an equivalent rental cost of 2x$3,000.

Even if the timeshare is purchased from the developer at a cost of $30,000, it may be considered as an investment over 10 to 20 years because of the big annual saving that can recover the money lost between the purchase cost ($30,000) vs the selling cost ($1) after 20+ years.

If you compare investing a single $30,000 lump sum at 7% per year + spending $6,000 for 2 weeks of vacation in the 2 bdrm Marriott's Maui every year vs purchasing a timeshare not in Hawaii of a 4 bdrm LO at $30,000 from the developer and investing every year the $4,000 saved then after 10 years both investors are equal ($59,014 vs $59,134) and after 20 years the renter has less money in his account than the timeshare owner ($116,090 vs $175,460).

spend -> get
Investor 1 (renter) after 20 years: $30,000 + 20x$6,000 -> $116,090 - income tax + 40 weeks of vacations
Investor 2 (ts owner) after 20 years: $30,000 + 20x$2,000 + 20x$4,000 -> $175,460 - income tax + 40 weeks of vacations + a timeshare ($1 market value)


----------



## HGVC Lover

youppi said:


> You may consider a timeshare as an investment over a long period of time when you travel all the time to resort with a high rental cost vs your MF+exchange fees.
> Example:
> 2 weeks of vacation in a 2 bdrm at a Marriott's resort in Maui would cost probably a minimum of 2x$3,000=$6,000 as rental price.
> 1 week non Hawaii 4 bdrm LO (2x 2 bdrm) timeshare with annual MF + 2x II exchange fees: $2,000.
> So, an annual investment of $2,000 gives a Return On Investment (ROI) of 200% ($4,000) (pay $2,000, get $6,000 in value, save $4,000) when the 4 bdrm LO (2x2 bdrm) is exchanged for 2 weeks in a 2 bdrm Marriott's Maui or any resorts somewhere else with an equivalent rental cost of 2x$3,000.
> 
> Even if the timeshare is purchased from the developer at a cost of $30,000, it may be considered as an investment over 10 to 20 years because of the big annual saving that can recover the money lost between the purchase cost ($30,000) vs the selling cost ($1) after 20+ years.
> 
> If you compare investing a single $30,000 lump sum at 7% per year + spending $6,000 for 2 weeks of vacation in the 2 bdrm Marriott's Maui every year vs purchasing a timeshare not in Hawaii of a 4 bdrm LO at $30,000 from the developer and investing every year the $4,000 saved then after 10 years both investors are equal ($59,014 vs $59,134) and after 20 years the renter has less money in his account than the timeshare owner ($116,090 vs $175,460).
> 
> spend -> get
> Investor 1 (renter) after 20 years: $30,000 + 20x$6,000 -> $116,090 - income tax + 40 weeks of vacations
> Investor 2 (ts owner) after 20 years: $30,000 + 20x$2,000 + 20x$4,000 -> $175,460 - income tax + 40 weeks of vacations + a timeshare ($1 market value)
> 
> View attachment 49751
> 
> View attachment 49752



Oops........I think I just accidentally stepped in a time share presentation......


----------



## dkern1

CalGalTraveler said:


> Where else on the planet can a salesperson describe a program with no details, no written benefits and a disclaimer from the corporation and people still buy?


Exactly! We kept saying we want to see something written; we don't buy something without first knowing what we are buying. We told them that we wanted printed material that was a complete guideline on what HGV Max actually is. They kept waffling and couldn't give us a clear answer so we said no thank you.


----------



## PigsDad

dkern1 said:


> Exactly! We kept saying we want to see something written; we don't buy something without first knowing what we are buying. We told them that we wanted printed material that was a complete guideline on what HGV Max actually is. They kept waffling and couldn't give us a clear answer so we said no thank you.


And yet many people are buying / upgrading based on nothing except the FUD being spread by the sales staff.  It just baffles the mind...

Kurt


----------



## NiteMaire

youppi said:


> You may consider a timeshare as an investment over a long period of time when you travel all the time to resort with a high rental cost vs your MF+exchange fees.


l think of it as cost avoidance.  


HGVC Lover said:


> Oops........I think I just accidentally stepped in a time share presentation......


_[Salesman #2 walks in the room] _
In April/May 2019 we spent back-to-back weeks in 2BR Marriott units on Oahu (KoOlina mountain view) and Kauai (Waiohai ocean view).  We followed it up in September with a week on Maui in a 1BR Westin (WKORV partial ocean view - don't know the exact view category).  For lodging, we spent approximately $2,900 in total for the 3 weeks (including all exchange fees).  It's a little more if you amortize the $3,500 combined purchase price of the 2 units we exchanged.  I searched Marriott online for the same rooms/dates, and those 3 weeks in the same units would have cost $11,500!  We couldn't afford it if we didn't own timeshares.

Bringing it back to the HGV Max: We'll take a look at the cost to join HGV Max, and determine if the potential cost avoidance is more the fee to join. I don't think it will be.  DeX has HGVC inventory.  If HGVC continues to appear in DeX, it won't be worth the fee to join.  Even if HGVC inventory is removed from DeX, I highly doubt it'll be worth it to join...unless the fee is ridiculously low (not counting on it).  As I mentioned before, we used DeX to exchange into The Grand Islander by HGVC starting April 8th.  If they offer an "update", we just may take them up on the offer to see what they pitch to join. I'll have to convince DW since she typically refuses to attend any update sales presentation.


----------



## tschafe

Did an owners update at a resort yesterday and this is what I got. 

To start I'm Diamond Platinum with 61,000 points. If I do absolutely nothing I will still be able to book at all existing DRI properties. However you buy into HGV Max, with the table below (they wouldn't let me have a copy but snuck a picture) I will gain access to the HGV portfolio. As a legacy owner, I would have to make a new purchase of 4,000 points bringing my points balance to 65,000 and they will move all 65,000 points to HGV Max. The downside is the inflated point value of $5 a point that I can't get them to budge on, so this would cost $20,000 to move all points. There's an additional benefit I did find out about, HGV Max will let me convert points at a 25x1 value into Hilton Honors. So technically I would have the options to use 1,625,000 Hilton honors points every year.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Thanks for sharing. Wow that's a lot of Hilton Honor points! I can see why that would be a benefit to Diamond owners to get more value out of your Diamond investment. (We already get it with HGVC but we don't get that many points.)

I find it amazing how quickly HGVC is moving on this program. The MVC/Vistana integrated program is just now trickling out after several years of "announcement coming." Perhaps because MVC felt some competition from HGV to get moving?


----------



## SmithOp

We would need to know the annual maint on 65k points to assess the conversion to HH value, it's got to be a hefty sum.

Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


----------



## BingoBangoBongo

tschafe said:


> Did an owners update at a resort yesterday and this is what I got.
> 
> To start I'm Diamond Platinum with 61,000 points. If I do absolutely nothing I will still be able to book at all existing DRI properties. However you buy into HGV Max, with the table below (they wouldn't let me have a copy but snuck a picture) I will gain access to the HGV portfolio. As a legacy owner, I would have to make a new purchase of 4,000 points bringing my points balance to 65,000 and they will move all 65,000 points to HGV Max. The downside is the inflated point value of $5 a point that I can't get them to budge on, so this would cost $20,000 to move all points. There's an additional benefit I did find out about, HGV Max will let me convert points at a 25x1 value into Hilton Honors. So technically I would have the options to use 1,625,000 Hilton honors points every year.
> 
> 
> View attachment 50167



If you don’t mind sharing, what are the MFs on your Diamond points?


----------



## Mowogo

PigsDad said:


> And yet many people are buying / upgrading based on nothing except the FUD being spread by the sales staff.  It just baffles the mind...
> 
> Kurt


My parents did the same on the Vistana side buying into trading in a Florida developer purchase for Sheraton Flex Retail a few years ago.  And plenty of people who never heard of TUG have done the same.  We have to remember that TUG is not the target market of timeshare sales.  We are the people they tolerate because we pay maintenance fees and are the people that do some defending of timeshares themselves.


----------



## Mowogo

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks for sharing. Wow that's a lot of Hilton Honor points! I can see why that would be a benefit to Diamond owners to get more value out of your Diamond investment. (We already get it with HGVC but we don't get that many points.)
> 
> I find it amazing how quickly HGVC is moving on this program. The MVC/Vistana integrated program is just now trickling out after several years of "announcement coming." Perhaps because MVC felt some competition from HGV to get moving?


I’ve noticed that, and for the family holdings the MVC/Vistana integration is getting me much more excited But then that is because it actually makes Sheraton Flex at elite ownership pretty strong.


----------



## dayooper

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks for sharing. Wow that's a lot of Hilton Honor points! I can see why that would be a benefit to Diamond owners to get more value out of your Diamond investment. (We already get it with HGVC but we don't get that many points.)
> 
> I find it amazing how quickly HGVC is moving on this program. The MVC/Vistana integrated program is just now trickling out after several years of "announcement coming." Perhaps because MVC felt some competition from HGV to get moving?



It looks like the MVC will integrate Vistana with not a whole lot of cost. The same can’t be said for HGVC and Diamond, at least that’s what the rumors look like.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

dayooper said:


> It looks like the MVC will integrate Vistana with not a whole lot of cost. The same can’t be said for HGVC and Diamond, at least that’s what the rumors look like.



Not true. Only Vistana retail buyers get low/free conversion. Resale must buy something to requalify their unit into the progam.  They are rewarding those who purchased retail and making resale buyers pay if they want to play.


----------



## PigsDad

CalGalTraveler said:


> Not true. Only retail buyers get low/free conversion. Resale must buy something to requalify their unit into the progam.  They are rewarding those who purchased retail and making resale buyers pay if they want to play.


Where have you seen that documented?  Or did you just verbally hear it from a salesperson?

Kurt


----------



## tschafe

SmithOp said:


> We would need to know the annual maint on 65k points to assess the conversion to HH value, it's got to be a hefty sum.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


Maintenance is about $0.19 a point currently. So if I did the upgrade 65k points would be roughly $12,350 give or take a few dollars.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

The MVC/Vistana program has been soft launched. Discussion here









						UPDATE: Marriott sales now has the merger details and they are allowed to discuss them with owners.
					

• Here are some answers for you from my source: I didn't choose the questions to answer, nor do I have any info about this topic myself, and I posted the response verbatim, so you'll have to take the answers below at face value.   • My source has agreed to do one more round of questions, for...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## PigsDad

tschafe said:


> Maintenance is about $0.19 a point currently. So if I did the upgrade 65k points would be roughly $12,350 give or take a few dollars.


So that $12,350 in MFs would get you 1,625,000 Hilton Honors points.  In our experience, most rooms at a Hampton Inn have been running an average of 40,000 points per night at the places we have stayed lately, such as Phoenix, AZ, Fort Lauderdale, FL, Prescott, AZ.  So 1,625,000 Honors points equates to ~40 nights, or $304/night.  Of those recent stays, I don't think one was over $200 cash rate.

To me, the Honors conversion is a losing proposition.

Kurt


----------



## dayooper

CalGalTraveler said:


> Not true. Only retail buyers get low/free conversion. Resale must buy something to requalify their unit into the progam.  They are rewarding those who purchased retail and making resale buyers pay if they want to play.



Of course they are. Since 2010, MVC has always made resale pay to play in their points system. That is expected. The issue is that it looks as if HGVC is making even retail purchasers pay to play in HGV Max. If they don’t and I bought retail after January 14th because I was told it is required to be part of the new membership, that would be a travesty. I also don’t get why some of you seem giddy at the fact that resale owners could be made to purchase retail to play in HGV Max. It will further deprecate the current ownership, including new retail purchases if there are more restrictions placed upon resale, especially if any new HGVC builds are only available to HGV Max members (and that has been reported to have been said in owners updates).


----------



## PigsDad

CalGalTraveler said:


> The program has been soft launched. Discussion here:
> 
> UPDATE: Marriott sales now has the merger details and they are allowed to discuss them with owners. | Page 2 | Timeshare Users Group Discussion Forums (tugbbs.com)


Oh, you were referring to the Marriott merger -- I thought you were talking about the HGV merger.  My bad.

Kurt


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I could see how that could be taken out of context. I was responding to a prior post on MVC. I added "MVC/Vistana" to be clear


----------



## tschafe

PigsDad said:


> So that $12,350 in MFs would get you 1,625,000 Hilton Honors points.  In our experience, most rooms at a Hampton Inn have been running an average of 40,000 points per night at the places we have stayed lately, such as Phoenix, AZ, Fort Lauderdale, FL, Prescott, AZ.  So 1,625,000 Honors points equates to ~40 nights, or $304/night.  Of those recent stays, I don't think one was over $200 cash rate.
> 
> To me, the Honors conversion is a losing proposition.
> 
> Kurt


I definitely wouldn't be using this to convert all points. It could come in handy at the end of a year, if I have left over points I can't use. Instead of rolling them into the stupid DRI Member appreciation account that limits to core resorts, I could roll them into Hilton Honors of use at any hotel. Definitely more appealing than the current program.


----------



## dayooper

tschafe said:


> I definitely wouldn't be using this to convert all points. It could come in handy at the end of a year, if I have left over points I can't use. Instead of rolling them into the stupid DRI Member appreciation account that limits to core resorts, I could roll them into Hilton Honors of use at any hotel. Definitely more appealing than the current program.



The issue is, if the conversation rules are the same in HGV Max as HGVC, you would only get the 25:1 rate if you convert your full points by Dec 31 of the previous year. Obviously, they could change the system to encourage HGV Max.

On a side note, I wonder if the 25:1 ratio will be offered to HGVC members that enroll into the new membership.


----------



## Mongoose

SmithOp said:


> We would need to know the annual maint on 65k points to assess the conversion to HH value, it's got to be a hefty sum.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo 10e using Tapatalk


It would have to be between $8-10K.  I nice back up option, but not really a good use of MFs.  I have done this several times with HICV when I had left over points.


----------



## Mongoose

[/QUOTE]


PigsDad said:


> So that $12,350 in MFs would get you 1,625,000 Hilton Honors points.  In our experience, most rooms at a Hampton Inn have been running an average of 40,000 points per night at the places we have stayed lately, such as Phoenix, AZ, Fort Lauderdale, FL, Prescott, AZ.  So 1,625,000 Honors points equates to ~40 nights, or $304/night.  Of those recent stays, I don't think one was over $200 cash rate.
> 
> To me, the Honors conversion is a losing proposition.
> 
> Kurt


Agree.  However its a nice back up option vs having the points expire.


----------



## GT75

tschafe said:


> There's an additional benefit I did find out about, HGV Max will let me convert points at a 25x1 value into Hilton Honors. So technically I would have the options to use 1,625,000 Hilton honors points every year.


That conversion rate doesn't seem fair if HGVC owners are only getting 1:16 rate to make our pt value on the same playing field as DRI members.


----------



## GT75

tschafe said:


> aintenance is about $0.19 a point currently. So if I did the upgrade 65k points would be roughly $12,350 give or take a few dollars.


Wow, so DRI MFs are almost twice my HGVC MFs for equivalent number pts.  Now I know that some HGVC owners have even lower MFs than myself (of course some have higher also)


----------



## dougp26364

GT75 said:


> Wow, so DRI MFs are almost twice my HGVC MFs for equivalent number pts.  Now I know that some HGVC owners have even lower MFs than myself (of course some have higher also)



exactly why we deeded back to DRI our two Polo Towers weeks. Considerably more expensive without the quality.

My question is, will Hilton bring DRI resorts MF’s under control? Maybe even lower them or, at the very least, not increase them for a few years.


----------



## dayooper

dougp26364 said:


> exactly why we deeded back to DRI our two Polo Towers weeks. Considerably more expensive without the quality.
> 
> My question is, will Hilton bring DRI resorts MF’s under control? Maybe even lower them or, at the very least, not increase them for a few years.



Was increase of funds going to the resort or to DRI corporate?


----------



## Mowogo

dougp26364 said:


> exactly why we deeded back to DRI our two Polo Towers weeks. Considerably more expensive without the quality.
> 
> My question is, will Hilton bring DRI resorts MF’s under control? Maybe even lower them or, at the very least, not increase them for a few years.


My concern is that some of the bad aspects of DRI become a part of HGVC, especially when I’m seeing relatively good news for the MVC/Vistana integration.


----------



## dougp26364

Fortunately, we only own one 2 bedroom platinum unit with Hilton, and they have generally maintained some value o the resale market. Worse case scenario we sell out.


----------



## GT75

dougp26364 said:


> My question is, will Hilton bring DRI resorts MF’s under control? Maybe even lower them or, at the very least, not increase them for a few years.


I am also wondering what HGV will do.     Time will tell for we will have to wait until MFs come out for next year.    That will give us our first indication of which way this is expected to go.


----------



## BingoBangoBongo

How does the relationship work between the HOA's and corporate in setting/raising MF's?


----------



## Mowogo

BingoBangoBongo said:


> How does the relationship work between the HOA's and corporate in setting/raising MF's?


HOA's are mostly corporate puppets unless the owners make a concentrated effort to overthrow the board.  Corporate team proposes and provides break down, puppet board approves using provided numbers.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Could this be a scenario? Maybe, but I see it as a remote possibility and will take many years. I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Sell, give away or deedback, if it becomes an issue.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

BingoBangoBongo said:


> How does the relationship work between the HOA's and corporate in setting/raising MF's?


Almost always there is a bloc of units that are owned by Corporate.  Unsold inventory or foreclosures/defaults that the resort or trust routes back to corporate for resale.  Corporate has the voting rights associated with that unit, and they vote it as a bloc. 

Given the low turnout in board elections and the number of owners who will simply vote to retain the existing management, the bloc owned by corporate does not have to be large for corporate to control the board.  I would guess as little as 5% ownership would be enough to essentially control the board.


----------



## Nowaker

Mowogo said:


> HOA's are mostly corporate puppets unless the owners make a concentrated effort to overthrow the board.


The problem of overthrowing the board by regular owners is HGVC may elect to remove a resort from its network, therefore stop providing ClubPoints for a given deed. I cannot quote it, or cite a specific source, but I saw it in deed restrictions of one of my properties. As I recall it, it sounded like "If original developer loses control of the board, HGVC may elect to exclude the resort from the Club". (If anyone can cite a source, please do!)

Unlike in trust points systems like MVC and Hyatt, membership in HGVC is not permanent - what's permanently granted is your stake in real estate. It makes some sense to diversify HGVC deeds just in case one goes under.


----------



## youppi

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Almost always there is a bloc of units that are owned by Corporate.  Unsold inventory or foreclosures/defaults that the resort or trust routes back to corporate for resale.  Corporate has the voting rights associated with that unit, and they vote it as a bloc.
> 
> Given the low turnout in board elections and the number of owners who will simply vote to retain the existing management, the bloc owned by corporate does not have to be large for corporate to control the board.  I would guess as little as 5% ownership would be enough to essentially control the board.


Also, if the corporate controls a trust then the corporate has a good chance to control all resorts HOA where the trust own many units because the board of the trust controlled by the corporate will vote at each HOA of resorts included in the trust and will vote for corporate puppets to put on the board of each HOA.

Example:
HGV corporate controls the HVC Hawaii Collection trust because many members don't vote, members have 1 vote per point owned but corporate has 3 votes per point owned (unsold points of the HI Collection).

The HI Collection trust owns the following resorts and from the number of units owned at each resort, HGV corporate probably controls the HOA at those resorts too:
~64% of units at The Point at Poipu (Kauai, HI)
~62% of units at Ka'anapali Beach Club (Maui, HI)
~60% of units at Villas at Pollo Towers (Las Vegas, NV)
~50% of units at Cancun Resort (Las Vegas, NV)
~32% of units at Palm Canyon Resort (Palm Spring, CA)
~31% of units at Cedar Breaks Lodge, (Brian Head, UT) 
~7% of units at Sedona Summit (Sunset section only) (Sedona, AZ) ***

*** The US Collection trust owns ~72% of units at Sedona Summit and the US Collection is controlled by HGV corporate.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

youppi said:


> Also, if the corporate controls a trust then the corporate has a good chance to control all resorts HOA where the trust own many units because the board of the trust controlled by the corporate will vote at each HOA of resorts included in the trust and will vote for corporate puppets to put on the board of each HOA.


Good note.  The Trust arrangement further cements corporate control.  Using your numbers, even if every deeded owner at Po'ipu or Ka'anapali voted for a change in management, the Trust votes would still carry the day.


----------



## pedro47

youppi said:


> Also, if the corporate controls a trust then the corporate has a good chance to control all resorts HOA where the trust own many units because the board of the trust controlled by the corporate will vote at each HOA of resorts included in the trust and will vote for corporate puppets to put on the board of each HOA.
> 
> Example:
> HGV corporate controls the HVC Hawaii Collection trust because many members don't vote, members have 1 vote per point owned but corporate has 3 votes per point owned (unsold points of the HI Collection).
> 
> The HI Collection trust owns the following resorts and from the number of units owned at each resort, HGV corporate probably controls the HOA at those resorts too:
> ~64% of units at The Point at Poipu (Kauai, HI)
> ~62% of units at Ka'anapali Beach Club (Maui, HI)
> ~60% of units at Villas at Pollo Towers (Las Vegas, NV)
> ~50% of units at Cancun Resort (Las Vegas, NV)
> ~32% of units at Palm Canyon Resort (Palm Spring, CA)
> ~31% of units at Cedar Breaks Lodge, (Brian Head, UT)
> ~7% of units at Sedona Summit (Sunset section only) (Sedona, AZ) ***
> 
> *** The US Collection trust owns ~72% of units at Sedona Summit and the US Collection is controlled by HGV corporate.


Heavy


----------



## youppi

FYI, I calculated the % from the financial report December 31, 2020




In the 2019 annual meeting presentation, they show the number in weeks in place of units and the % owned is similar


----------



## Mongoose

Worth the look.  They point out HGV is a sub-brand and HGVC is still the flagship.  It gives the impression that HGVC and HGV will operate separately for users with no "cross pollination" unless you join the still TBD HGV MAX.  To me, the relationship might have the look and feel of the relationship between Worldmark and Wyndham.   Hilton Grand Vacations Buys Diamond Resorts: How This Affects You - Selling Timeshares, Inc.


----------



## BingoBangoBongo

Mongoose said:


> Worth the look.  They point out HGV is a sub-brand and HGVC is still the flagship.  It gives the impression that HGVC and HGV will operate separately for users with no "cross pollination" unless you join the still TBD HGV MAX.  To me, the relationship might have the look and feel of the relationship between Worldmark and Wyndham.   Hilton Grand Vacations Buys Diamond Resorts: How This Affects You - Selling Timeshares, Inc.



*"ClubPoint Values Were Adjusted By 160%" - One of the most notable changes is that Hilton has adjusted ClubPoint values to be 160% higher than before.*

Mine only went up 60%.  Who should I call


----------



## GT75

BingoBangoBongo said:


> Who should I call


Ghostbusters


----------



## primeg

The 160% in the article is a misprint.  It should read 60%.


----------



## brp

primeg said:


> The 160% in the article is a misprint.  It should read 60%.



I thought that it was 160%, and the extra 100% were automatically transferred to HHonors points. And, with the devaluation, they reduced those so that the net result looks the same in the HHonors totals. But your suggestion makes more sense 

Cheers.


----------



## primeg

brp said:


> I thought that it was 160%, and the extra 100% were automatically transferred to HHonors points. And, with the devaluation, they reduced those so that the net result looks the same in the HHonors totals. But your suggestion makes more sense
> 
> Cheers.





BingoBangoBongo said:


> On the HGVC website this am:
> 
> *Points Adjustment for Club Members*
> On February 24, 2022, Hilton Grand Vacations is changing the number of Points allocated to a Club Member’s vacation ownership interest and the number of Points required to make a reservation.
> 
> *ClubPoints, Bonus Points & Saved Points: *The adjustment will increase all Points by  60%. Therefore, for every 1 Point in a Club Member’s account, the account will  change to 1.6 Points. Example: If on February 23, a Club Member had 5,000  ClubPoints, on February 24, the Member will have 8,000 ClubPoints.
> *Club Reservations: *The number of Points needed to make reservations will also be adjusted across the Club Program by the same 60%. Hence, a Member’s ability to make reservations using their Points within the Hilton Grand Vacations Club system stays the same.
> *RCI:* Currently  deposited Points in RCI will also be adjusted on February 24, 2022.
> *Hilton Honors: *Honors conversion ratios will be adjusted proportionally so you receive a commensurate  Points amount.
> *ClubPartner Perks: *The exchange  value per Points converted for ClubPartner Perks will be adjusted  proportionally for each partner.
> *Maintenance Fees:* The exchange  value per Bonus Points for maintenance fees will be adjusted proportionally as  well.
> 
> It looks like we need to relearn all of our purchase/pt and MF/pt math.


----------



## brp

Understood. Both @BingoBangoBongo's and my posts were jokes based on the typo. The actual numbers were discussed a while back 

Cheers.


----------



## Mongoose

BingoBangoBongo said:


> *"ClubPoint Values Were Adjusted By 160%" - One of the most notable changes is that Hilton has adjusted ClubPoint values to be 160% higher than before.*
> 
> Mine only went up 60%.  Who should I call


Yeah, I caught that.  I figured if they said 60% people would think they were adjusted down.  Could have been worded better.


----------



## PigsDad

BingoBangoBongo said:


> *"ClubPoint Values Were Adjusted By 160%" - One of the most notable changes is that Hilton has adjusted ClubPoint values to be 160% higher than before.*
> 
> Mine only went up 60%.  Who should I call


A case could be made that both statements are correct.  "Adjusted by 160%" could very well mean multiplied by 160%, which is the same as "going up by 60%".

The diversity of discussions we have here always amazes me.   

Kurt


----------



## Eric B

PigsDad said:


> A case could be made that both statements are correct. "Adjusted by 160%" could very well mean multiplied by 160%, which is the same as "going up by 60%".



While true, the following statement that was included in the quote couldn't reasonably be interpreted that way:

*Hilton has adjusted ClubPoint values to be 160% higher than before.* 

That statement would require that ClubPoint values be multiplied by 260%.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Eric B said:


> While true, the following statement that was included in the quote couldn't reasonably be interpreted that way:
> 
> *Hilton has adjusted ClubPoint values to be 160% higher than before.*
> 
> That statement would require that ClubPoint values be multiplied by 260%.


Or it could be interpreted as sloppy writing/editing.  A couple of months ago one of the major US newspaper made this very mistake in the headline of a story real estate price increases.  Reading the story is was clear that prices had gone up by nn% year over year.  The headline said real estate prices were 1nn% higher than a year earlier.


----------



## BingoBangoBongo

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Or it could be interpreted as sloppy writing/editing.  A couple of months ago one of the major US newspaper made this very mistake in the headline of a story real estate price increases.  Reading the story is was clear that prices had gone up by nn% year over year.  The headline said real estate prices were 1nn% higher than a year earlier.



Or could be interpreted as "Timeshare math".


----------



## Eric B

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Or it could be interpreted as sloppy writing/editing.  A couple of months ago one of the major US newspaper made this very mistake in the headline of a story real estate price increases.  Reading the story is was clear that prices had gone up by nn% year over year.  The headline said real estate prices were 1nn% higher than a year earlier.



Well, that would probably be an appropriate identification of the root cause that lead to the publication of a headline that said what it said.  Up is not down and wrong is not right.  Call me a stickler or curmudgeon if you will - I won't object.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Eric B said:


> Well, that would probably be an appropriate identification of the root cause that lead to the publication of a headline that said what it said.  Up is not down and wrong is not right.  Call me a stickler or curmudgeon if you will - I won't object.


I'm a stickler as well.  I emailed the writer of the article about the mistake.  He acknowledged the error and they fixed the headline.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

BingoBangoBongo said:


> Or could be interpreted as "Timeshare math"


Yep - I've seen that math on a timeshare sales floor.


----------



## Eric B

BingoBangoBongo said:


> Or could be interpreted as "Timeshare math".



Probably not as it was in printed material rather than being written upside down....


----------



## Mongoose

primeg said:


> The 160% in the article is a misprint.  It should read 60%.





Eric B said:


> While true, the following statement that was included in the quote couldn't reasonably be interpreted that way:
> 
> *Hilton has adjusted ClubPoint values to be 160% higher than before.*
> 
> That statement would require that ClubPoint values be multiplied by 260%.


Geez did this have legs…. It says adjusted to 160% rather than increased by 160%. It’s technically accurate but poorly written.


----------



## brp

Mongoose said:


> Geez did this have legs…. It says adjusted to 160% rather than increased by 160%. It’s technically accurate but poorly written.



Right, but

* One of the most notable changes is that Hilton has adjusted ClubPoint values to be 160% higher than before.* 

is not even technically correct as written.

Cheers.


----------



## Eric B

Mongoose said:


> Geez did this have legs…. It says adjusted to 160% rather than increased by 160%. It’s technically accurate but poorly written.



It would be technically accurate but for the inclusion of the word "be" after the word "to" and the phrase "higher than before" after the figure 160%, making this a statement about the margin by which the ClubPoints changed rather than a statement about the final level of the ClubPoints.  In my view, it's technically inaccurate and poorly written, but I fully admit to being a curmudgeon.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Eric B said:


> It would be technically accurate but for the inclusion of the word "be" after the word "to" and the phrase "higher than before" after the figure 160%, making this a statement about the margin by which the ClubPoints changed rather than a statement about the final level of the ClubPoints. In my view, it's technically inaccurate and poorly written, but I fully admit to being a curmudgeon.


Curmudgeons rule!!!  

*One of the most notable changes is that Hilton has adjusted ClubPoint values to be 160% higher than before.* 

That statement can only mean that the new values are 260% of the old values.  If they said values were 60% higher, then that would unequivocally mean that the new values are 1.6x the old values - you multiply by 0.6 and add that value to the old value. Thus, If they are 160% higher, you multiply by 1.6 and add that value to the old value, yielding a results that is 2.6x the original.


----------



## terces

dougp26364 said:


> I agree. When we owned 2 weeks at PoloTowers and DRI bought Sunterra, it made sense for us to pay the $2,995 joiner fee. It gave us easy access to a wealth of resorts and locations we didn’t have easy access into except through external exchange with II. It gave us control to choose the resort, check in date and view. All things we didn’t have with II.
> 
> I suspect there are more than a few Hilton owners who find themselves in the same position as we were all those years ago. They feel limited by Hilton’s offerings of destinations and will find the addition of all the DRI destinations attractive. Even if the joiner fee is $5,000, it’s less expensive than starting over in another system or even buying a resale week but having to pay the yearly MF on those purchases.


Agree - I would be totally happy to pay a reasonable joiner fee.  Especially if they include some resorts in Canada.


----------



## GMan82

Any idea when the announcement will be? I assumed 4/1. The email from Soroka dated 1/4/22 and titled “What’s New with your Club Membership in 2022” just says early Q2. The excerpt is as follows: 

“Looking ahead, we are working around the clock to launch our new membership program early in the second quarter of 2022. The new membership program will provide Members access to more properties in new destinations and markets, in addition to new and enhanced benefits. As details are finalized, including program costs and fees, we will be sure to share these with you.”


----------



## dougp26364

You mean an announcement on April Fools Day? How appropriate for a timeshare company


----------



## PigsDad

I heard the date of April 4th thrown around.

Kurt


----------



## dayooper

PigsDad said:


> I heard the date of April 4th thrown around.
> 
> Kurt



Same here.


----------



## pedro47

PigsDad said:


> I heard the date of April 4th thrown around.
> 
> Kurt


Ditto


----------



## GT75

PigsDad said:


> I heard the date of April 4th thrown around.


That means that you still have time to get in on the ground floor of that HGV Max program.


----------



## PigsDad

GT75 said:


> That means that you still have time to get in on the ground floor of that HGV Max program.


Who do I make the check out to?   

Kurt


----------



## Eric B

Interesting change in DEX noted by @NiteMaire in this thread:









						Minor Change in DeX
					

Icons within DeX have changed.  Now, it's a blue circle with the following letters:  "M" - Managed, "AR" - Affiliated, "DA" DeX Affiliate, and "DP" - DeX Partner.  I recall the DA/DP having the "D" in the middle with a red (?) circle above it.  I don't recall being able to differentiate between...




					tugbbs.com
				




HGVC now seems to be listed as a DEX partner.


----------



## NiteMaire

Eric B said:


> Interesting change in DEX noted by @NiteMaire in this thread:
> HGVC now seems to be listed as a DEX partner.


I think @youppi can shed additional light, but I think they were listed as such in the past (DeX backend uses RCI for some of the inventory--I presume that's where the inventory is pulled).  My takeaway is that it seems to indicate HGVC inventory will continue to be separate from DRI/DeX inventory.  Put another way, HGVC is not considered "Managed" inventory in DeX.  This seems to be in line with what CSRs have been saying...access will continue as usual.  Even with the standup of HGV Max, I fully anticipate limited HGVC/HGV Max inventory in DeX.  After all, HGV needs DRI owners to experience HGVC so they can be persuaded to buy into HGV Max.

ETA: DeX is interesting.  I recently used DeX to exchange into a Shell timeshare in a Wyndham controlled resort and received an RCI exchange confirmation. Seems like multiple complex relationships.


----------



## Eric B

I didn’t see any announcement on the 4th; did anyone else see anything?


----------



## NiteMaire

Eric B said:


> I didn’t see any announcement on the 4th; did anyone else see anything?


Nope...and owners who attended a presentation today heard everything from tomorrow to August/September! 

Some resorts had some type of celebration. 

Seems odd if they wait a few more months. Then again, I'm sure sales will wpin it by saying owners should take advantage of the delay and buy now to be grandfathered into Max. Speculation runs wild!


----------



## GT75

NiteMaire said:


> Then again, I'm sure sales will wpin it by saying owners should take advantage of the delay and buy now to be grandfathered into Max. Speculation runs wild!


My thoughts exactly on how it will play out on the sales floor.   I can almost hear them saying it.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

NiteMaire said:


> hen again, I'm sure sales will wpin it by saying owners should take advantage of the delay and buy now to be grandfathered into Max. Speculation runs wild!





GT75 said:


> My thoughts exactly on how it will play out on the sales floor. I can almost hear them saying it.


That's essentially what they've been saying since the purchase was announced.  Last presentation we went to (in August) was about how we should buy points to get to Platinum, because if we were Platinum we would almost surely be added into the HGVC program (though no details about integration were yet available).  And, as a reward to Diamond members for loyalty, Hilton was allowing Diamond resorts to continue to sell points in the Diamond program at Diamond pricing instead of Hilton pricing. 

Likely the least persuasive timeshare sales pitch I've ever heard.  I guess they have to find some potential benefit to sell, even if there isn't anything to sell.


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## DRIplatinum

This past weekend we attended a HGV MAX sales pitch for our DRI points.
Two options available,
1) DO NOTHING or
2) convert DRI points into MAX with a 10,000 point upgrade, of coarse for a fee.

Question, if we DO NOTHING, does our DRI membership and current tier program remain intact ?


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## GT75

DRIplatinum said:


> Question, if we DO NOTHING, does our DRI membership and current tier program remain intact ?


Details on HGV Max program have been released for HGVC members on the web site.  For HGVG Legacy members, the answer is yes.    I would expect the same for DRI members.   Has anything been officially released for DRI members?


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## Cewood

Where is it in the HGVC website?  I am logged in and don't see it.


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## NiteMaire

GT75 said:


> Details on HGV Max program have been released for HGVC members on the web site. For HGVG Legacy members, the answer is yes. I would expect the same for DRI members. Has anything been officially released for DRI members?


Haven't seen anything for DRI members.


Cewood said:


> Where is it in the HGVC website? I am logged in and don't see it.


I'm not HGVC so I don't know where it's at, but attached are some pictures for of it.
Here's the post that accompanied the pictures.
------------------
There you have it. HGV Max, HGV Legacy. In the club rules dated April 4th, there is a $7000 buy in, six month booking window for Diamond resorts for HGV Max members. No restrictions on resale ownership. All a lot of nothing, paying $7000 to book unnamed Diamond resorts six months out that you could book via RCI. My wallet is firmly closed.
I think Club fees for HGV Max members are significantly higher than those for the HGV Legacy Owners.
----------------

For $7K, you may be better off purchasing a resale HGVC unit if you already own with Diamond.


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## Beanieh01

Cewood said:


> Where is it in the HGVC website?  I am logged in and don't see it.


Log into your account and go to the HOA section under the "Ownership" drop down.  There is a disclosure statement dated April 4. It looks different than what NiteMaire posted though - not sure where those pics came from


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## Eric B

From page 16 of the new set of Club Rules:

HGV Max is not available to persons who acquire an ownership interest at a Hilton Grand Vacations resort via the secondary resale market.

Can't say that I'm all that disappointed as I didn't really feel like popping an extra $7,000 to join HGV Max, particularly when the rules include the following on page 17:

The HGV Max program has no pre-determined termination date and may continue until such time as Hilton Grand Vacations decides to terminate the program with or without notice.

Lotsa luck selling HGV Max to any rational HGVC owners - it sounds worse than most Mexican RTU ownerships to me.


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## GT75

Cewood said:


> Where is it in the HGVC website? I am logged in and don't see it.


It is an update to the rules.   But I have also attached the new rules.


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## Beanieh01

Beanieh01 said:


> Log into your account and go to the HOA section under the "Ownership" drop down.  There is a disclosure statement dated April 4. It looks different than what NiteMaire posted though - not sure where those pics came from


Oops actually all the info is also in the Club Rules documents under the "Club" drop down.


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## Msb1102

$7k??


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## Eric B

NiteMaire said:


> I think Club fees for HGV Max members are significantly higher than those for the HGV Legacy Owners.



Not really; the fees listed for HGV Max are "Inclusive Club Dues" and are at $281 while the corresponding dues for eligible owners (i.e., Hilton Club - formerly by Hilton Club) are $325 - that's the class of dues that includes exchange fees.


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## GT75

Eric B said:


> Can't say that I'm all that disappointed as I didn't really feel like popping an extra $7,000 to join HGV Max


Honestly, I am glad that our HGVC Legacy program remains intact.    I was much more interested to see how that was being affected.


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## NiteMaire

Eric B said:


> Not really; the fees listed for HGV Max are "Inclusive Club Dues" and are at $281 while the corresponding dues for eligible owners (i.e., Hilton Club - formerly by Hilton Club) are $325 - that's the class of dues that includes exchange fees.


That part of my post was from a FB group so I presume the poster misread it.  With @GT75 posting the document, that part of my post is mostly obsolete.  


Msb1102 said:


> $7k??


I haven't seen anyone on the HGVC Owners FB Group say they will pay that if not grandfathered.  Actually, I think 100% have said no way. 
With HGV Max members being able to reserve at only 6 months out, DRI owners are mostly protected from having their ownership affected. Then again, this has the potential to affect inventory at 60 days out so there may be some unhappy DRI owners.


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## Eric B

GT75 said:


> Honestly, I am glad that our HGVC Legacy program remains intact.    I was much more interested to see how that was being affected.



Completely agree with that.  The one thing I'm wondering about is when reservations open up for HGV Max members from the DRI side to reserve at Hilton Club (i.e., bHC) resorts - do they have to wait until the Club window opens for non-Hilton Club owners or does their window open at 6 months?  It would seem a bit too much of an advantage for DRI side HGV Max owners to be able to book W 57th, et al., at 6 months while the rest of the HGVC owners have to wait until 89 days or 59 days.

I'm actually kind of happy that they set the buy in so high for it.  This makes the decision a very simple one.  On the other hand, the one time initiation fee might be worth it for some HGVC owners to get access to the Inclusive Club Dues they would otherwise have to buy a Hilton Club resort to get.  I could see it penciling out for someone in the position of having a lot of HGVC ownership and wanting to avoid reservation fees, but since most of my ownerships are in other systems it just wouldn't make sense for me.


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## ConejoRed

I wonder if they may do a one-time offer to all current HGVC owners to pay the 'ala carte" membership fee and then set a cut off date for resale owners.  The wording says "not available to persons who "acquire" an ownership interest" not "have acquired or acquire" an ownership interest so there is some wiggle room to say only future acquired resales will not be eligible and still offer it to current resale owners. They are leaving a LOT of $$ off the table I think if they don't and trying to sell a $7,000 fee is going to be hard enough as it is without leaving a large part of their current membership out to begin with.

Since I already have access to the Diamond through their DEX exchange since I own a legacy deeded week at their Lake Tahoe Resort, I will not pay the fee, but it will be interesting to see what exactly is offered since all my HGVC weeks are resale weeks.


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## Eric B

ConejoRed said:


> I wonder if they may do a one-time offer to all current HGVC owners to pay the 'ala carte" membership fee and then set a cut off date for resale owners.  The wording says "not available to persons who "acquire" an ownership interest" not "have acquired or acquire" an ownership interest so there is some wiggle room to say only future acquired resales will not be eligible and still offer it to current resale owners. They are leaving a LOT of $$ off the table I think if they don't and trying to sell a $7,000 fee is going to be hard enough as it is without leaving a large part of their membership out to begin with.
> 
> Since I already have access to the Diamond through their DEX exchange since I own a legacy deeded week at their Lake Tahoe Resort, I will not pay the fee, but it will be interesting to see what exactly is offered since all my HGVC weeks are resale weeks.



Whether or not they do, I'm out.  At $7K, it would make much more sense for me to buy a legacy deeded week in DEX or some DRI points if I really want to go to any of those resorts.  I only bought what I have in HGVC to go to specific resorts anyway, but I would be somewhat shocked if they are able to persuade anyone to pay that level of a fee for a program that they retain the right to terminate at any time without any notice and don't have any mechanism to return the initiation fee for if they do.


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## GT75

Eric B said:


> The one thing I'm wondering about is when reservations open up for HGV Max members from the DRI side to reserve at Hilton Club (i.e., bHC) resorts - do they have to wait until the Club window opens for non-Hilton Club owners or does their window open at 6 months? It would seem a bit too much of an advantage for DRI side HGV Max owners to be able to book W 57th, et al., at 6 months while the rest of the HGVC owners have to wait until 89 days or 59 days.


Yes, I am also very interested to see DRI HGV Max booking rules.    I don't think that they will be able to book bHC at 6-month mark.    But need to what and see.


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## NiteMaire

Eric B said:


> Whether or not they do, I'm out. At $7K, it would make much more sense for me to buy a legacy deeded week in DEX or some DRI points if I really want to go to any of those resorts. I only bought what I have in HGVC to go to specific resorts anyway, but I would be somewhat shocked if they are able to persuade anyone to pay that level of a fee for a program that they retain the right to terminate at any time without any notice and don't have any mechanism to return the initiation fee for if they do.


Agree. HGVC owners are bettter off buying DRI deeded week; just as DRI owners are better off buying HGVC week (presuming buyin is similar for DRI).
HGV may have accidentally set off a run on resale week purchases for both HGVC and DRI resorts.


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## Eric B

NiteMaire said:


> Agree. HGVC owners are better off buying DRI deeded week; just as DRI owners are better off buying HGVC week (presuming buy in is similar for DRI).
> HGV may have accidentally set off a run on resale week purchases for both HGVC and DRI resorts.



That may be why they included the ability to terminate the program without notice.  That could happen pretty quickly, too....


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## dayooper

Eric B said:


> That may be why they included the ability to terminate the program without notice.  That could happen pretty quickly, too....



I saw that and thought the same.


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## dayooper

Eric B said:


> Whether or not they do, I'm out.  At $7K, it would make much more sense for me to buy a legacy deeded week in DEX or some DRI points if I really want to go to any of those resorts.  I only bought what I have in HGVC to go to specific resorts anyway, but I would be somewhat shocked if they are able to persuade anyone to pay that level of a fee for a program that they retain the right to terminate at any time without any notice and don't have any mechanism to return the initiation fee for if they do.



I think the high cost was done purposely. Encourage those who want in to buy new deeds at very high prices. I don’t see many current owners purchasing a low point lousy deed just to get HGV Max. They will spring for the trade in or new higher point deed.

I can see why people are always buying. Once you get the bug, it’s hard to shake. We are very happy with what we own now, but I am always seeing new ways to use points and am always checking out resale prices. A nice W57th deed or a week in Hilton Head are always on my mind.


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## brp

dayooper said:


> I saw that and thought the same.



That's always been in any program I've seen - hotels, TS, airline loyalty programs. They may have some specific ideas about it here, but this would appear to be standard wording.

Cheers.


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## PigsDad

Eric B said:


> That may be why they included the ability to terminate the program without notice.  That could happen pretty quickly, too....


I wouldn't read too much into that.  There is also wording that has been around forever that HGV can terminate the HGVC aka "the Club" at any point -- no points, no RCI exchanges, no Open Season, etc.  You would just own the week(s) stated on your deed.

The chance of either of these programs being terminated is about 0%, IMO.

Kurt


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## holdaer

Eric B said:


> Whether or not they do, I'm out.  At $7K, it would make much more sense for me to buy a legacy deeded week in DEX or some DRI points if I really want to go to any of those resorts.  I only bought what I have in HGVC to go to specific resorts anyway, but I would be somewhat shocked if they are able to persuade anyone to pay that level of a fee for a program that they retain the right to terminate at any time without any notice and don't have any mechanism to return the initiation fee for if they do.



The $7K is a one-time buy-in.  If you buy a legacy deeded week in DEX or some other DRI property wouldn't you have the purchase price + annual maintenance fee?  I would imagine the annual maintenance fee will exceed the one-time buy-in over a 3-4 yr period.  Just something else to consider in the cost/benefit analysis.


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## Eric B

holdaer said:


> The $7K is a one-time buy-in.  If you buy a legacy deeded week in DEX or some other DRI property wouldn't you have the purchase price + annual maintenance fee?  I would imagine the annual maintenance fee will exceed the one-time buy-in over a 3-4 yr period.  Just something else to consider in the cost/benefit analysis.



YMMV.  I wound up buying resale WorldMark points to add to my Wyndham ownership and get access to high demand WM resorts that are never available through Wyndham Club Pass as well as to avoid the extra fees for booking through there.  I don't believe that $7K for a 6-month access that will likely not include high demand DRI availability would ever be worth it.


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## ConejoRed

NiteMaire said:


> Agree. HGVC owners are bettter off buying DRI deeded week; just as DRI owners are better off buying HGVC week (presuming buyin is similar for DRI).
> HGV may have accidentally set off a run on resale week purchases for both HGVC and DRI resorts.


I tend to agree that the high fee makes actually makes buying resale better than paying $7,000 just to access the other systems' inventory.  My resale LTVR resale week was only $1500 for a 2 bedroom lock-off unit (float 1-52) that I bought after the merger was announced.  I bought it more to be able to use it and book this particular resort for a high season summer week a year out, but I did end up depositing this week's high summer week due to a scheduling conflict and ended depositing each side separately into DEX.  Used half for a Thanksgiving week in a DRI resort in Sedona and still have another week left in DEX.  Tons of DRI weeks are available in DEX.  The only real limitation is that we can only exchange for another full week, but that is how we usually travel anyway.  You are not going to find Lake Tahoe summer or ski weeks 6 months out that's for sure!  If the pull the plug on everything for resale weeks, then we will just use our original weeks as we followed the rule of buying where we would like to go anyway.


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## NiteMaire

ConejoRed said:


> Tons of DRI weeks are available in DEX.


Yep.  I'm very happy with the available inventory in DeX (DRI and affiliate/partner).  And with the limit of Max being 6 months out, I'm not worried about availability at places we want to go.  I do wonder, however, where HGV will put unsold inventory not owned by the Club(s).
As I've posted earlier in this thread or elsewhere, we're headed to The Grand Islander by HGVC this Friday thanks to an exchange through DeX.  I think we'll continue seeing limited HGVC availability in DeX; heck, I wouldn't be surprised to see a little more than we do now.


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## escanoe

With all the different thread posts and discussions going on, I ponder if we have reached "peak HGV Max" yet?


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## Eric B

escanoe said:


> With all the different thread posts and discussions going on, I ponder if we have reached "peak HGV Max" yet?



I believe the altitude of the HGV Max peak is 7,000….


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## escanoe

Eric B said:


> I believe the altitude of the HGV Max peak is 7,000….



Perhaps. Or it may increase by the magnitude of 60% or 160%.


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## GT75

escanoe said:


> With all the different thread posts and discussions going on, I ponder if we have reached "peak HGV Max" yet?





Eric B said:


> I believe the altitude of the HGV Max peak is 7,000….





escanoe said:


> Perhaps. Or it may increase by the magnitude of 60% or 160%.


Yes, I think that this thread has reached peak HGV Max.      I am going to lock it.     Currently, we have two other HGV Max information threads going (so post in one of those):









						Owner Update and HGV Max
					

So we are in Hawaii right now and staying at the Bay Club. We went to the owner's update today because I wanted to hear about the Diamond updates and get discounted tickets for the Luau. A big part of the update was about HGV Max. They said that we don't need to do anything if we don't want to...




					tugbbs.com
				












						HGV Max in the Club Reference Guide
					

(This is my post from a different thread. I figure this should have a post in it’s own.)  Looks like it’s $7000 to join HGV Max without a developer purchase. Here is a screenshot of the reference page from my account.  Here’s another statement from the reference page about resale.   Does this...




					tugbbs.com


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