# [2006] Another Encroachment Problem



## JLB (Nov 17, 2005)

We have a few hateful neighbors, ROFs who have nothing better to do than stick their nose in their neighbors' business and bully them around.  One is especially bad and he has run off four or five families who have owned in our neighborhood.

Here's more than you need to know:

http://www.timeshareforums.com/showthread.php?t=2350

The property behind us has a 30-foot wide utility easement abutting and running the length of our lot.  We have maintained the property in that easement in the 8 years we have owned our property.  The previous owners of our property maintained it going back to at least 1991.

Last Spring, because of the dispute on our dock, the property owner behind us and two other ROFs, with all three wives helping, put a bunch of crap on that easement behind our house.  An old broken down boat trailer, logs, yard waste, etc., and have not made any effort to maintain or clear vegetation in the last six months.  They have stated publicly that they did that to make us uncomfortable, to force us to move so they can get someone in here they can dictate (yeah, I have that on tape, only it wasn't said that politely).  That easement is ten feet from the back of our screen porch where we try to sit and enjoy the lake.

This summer they put up huge ugly blue tarps, on property they do not own, to block our view of the lake.  Then they started coming onto the property next to us, shining lights in our windows at night, calling profanities at us, shooting guns, etc.  The owner of that property, whom the bullies sucked into this, put an end to that on his property.

They burn their leaves and smelly whatever out there when the wind is blowing our way.

The neighbor directly behind us, say vice-bully, is a retired police captain.

Hold on, I'm getting there.

They have also gone to other neighbors and non-neighbors and used heavy-handed tactics to get them to do similar stuff to us.  Tactics like, "We can do this to you, too, you know?"  The head bully got an absentee lot owner who has not visited their property for many, many years to send me a letter ordering that I remove my boat trailer from his lot and stay off of it.  For the 8-years we have been here we and others have stored our trailers there and have mowed it and removed leaves from it in return.

Getting closer.

One who is going along with them is our next-door neighbor.  He bought his house from folks who were nice and friends of ours, but who got run off.  He spies on us, staying inside keeping a crack of his drapes open.  The head bully has taken him to the sheriff's office to testify (falsely) that we have been running around the neighborhood spying on people and harassing them.

OK, I'm there now.

*His house is ten feet over our lot line.*  Really!  It is in real life and it is on the survey.  There is no dispute about it.  It is on our lot.

That is common here.  Actually every house but ours is encroaching on the neighbor's lot, or on Corps land, or on what is now the County road, or has an easement allowing the use of neighboring property.

There is no written agreement with our neighbor concerning the encroachment.

We share a well and when we bought our house I insisted that the sellers execute a water well agreement with the previous neighbors.  In fact, that had not been done when we first came down to close and we walked.  We closed when the water well agreement had been executed and recorded.  That is common too.

So, what would you do with a next-door neighbor who is in cahoots with the hateful ones when his house is ten feet on our property?


----------



## gmarine (Nov 17, 2005)

When you have a problem that no one else can solve, if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team !


----------



## Keitht (Nov 17, 2005)

From what you are saying about them I would suggest the only way forward is legal action through the courts.


----------



## CaliDave (Nov 17, 2005)

They already hate you so you might as well get your ten feet back. Tell them you need the space to park your boat trailer. 

Or tell them, they win, you are moving and the new buyer won't close until the house is off their property


----------



## JLB (Nov 17, 2005)

You are always right on, Dave.  Jenny added that what would be most appropriate is that if we sell out to the bullies and then they insist he tear down his house.

I figured someone would suggest the same tact as Janie's neighbor~~~give him one day's notice and then go tear down ten feet of his house.    
- - - - - - -

More seriously, I am considering sending our neighbor a letter, acknowledging his encroachment and making it clear that we have not given that ten feet of our property to him.  I would say it never has been a problem in the past, when things were amicable between us or the previous owner of our house and the previous owners of his house, but . . .

Since the neighbors behind us, and their cohorts, got ----- about the easement behind us, I have been mowing all of our lot where our neighbor encroaches.  I mow from the pin at the road up to his house, around it, and then to the pin in the back.

We have a little trailer back there and one of the bullies' wives told me to move our trailer off of (our neighbor's) property.   Oops, best leave a sleeping dog lie.  Her driveway encroaches on her neighbor's property to get to the road.


----------



## CaliDave (Nov 17, 2005)

What part of the house in on your property?
Have a contractor come out and install a door on your portion, and be sitting in the room when he gets home. 

It must be boredom that causes people to bully. Kids do this all the time.. Then people mature and have better things to do with thier time.. then they retire, get bored and act like kids again.


----------



## Dee in California (Nov 17, 2005)

Suddenly, I feel this urge to go and hug my wonderful neighbors...


----------



## JLB (Nov 17, 2005)

Dave:

We have not spent a lot of time in his house.  Upstairs eight feet of his living room is on our property.  Downstairs it is a converted garage.  We don't know what he does down there.  The other two feet is the deck on the front of his house and the steps down from it.  In addition to the house itself, there is also a little flower bed and a concrete sidewalk.

Last month he had DISH installed.  The DISH was put up on his roof at our end (or would that be our roof?).  Our DISH is on our roof on his side of our house.  When the installer was up there putting his up I looked up at him and said, "Just what I need~~~two DISHes."  I don't think he understood.     


Dee:

I'd be happy to come hug your neighbors.


----------



## Jestjoan (Nov 17, 2005)

Where are the lawyers here? I think there is some kind of law where if you use a property as your own for so many years without objection, it goes to the one who is using it.

I hope I'm not way off base with this. I'd Google if I knew what it was called.....


----------



## Jestjoan (Nov 17, 2005)

Squatters rights??????


----------



## pegs099 (Nov 17, 2005)

I wouldn't send that letter.  I would contact a lawyer on this.  For example, you may not want to acknowledge that you knew his property was encroaching, but that it was okay in the past.  As far as the rest, put up a fence to cover the garbage.  Plus, it'll drive them nuts wondering what you're doing behind the fence.  And, I would record every harassing thing that happens, and call the police whenever any dispute came up.


----------



## nightnurse613 (Nov 17, 2005)

JLB, I've heard that good things come to those who wait (but I'm not waiting to inherit the earth) and this kind of reinforces my belief.  From the other thread you must know that you cannot ignore "open and notorius occupation". You probably won't win your neighbors undying love but, I think you two are going to get to know each other much better. Sorry about that part.


----------



## Moosie (Nov 17, 2005)

Joan it is Eminent Domain, but that might just be for government to use, I'm not sure if it falls under private property.


----------



## DeniseM (Nov 18, 2005)

Sounds like a horrible situation...but why are they doing all this?  What do they WANT?


----------



## Jestjoan (Nov 18, 2005)

No, Moosie, I knew it wasn't eminent domain because that is government. I found from reading another thread it is called adverse posession.......


----------



## arlene22 (Nov 18, 2005)

Definitely contact a lawyer. But IMHO, sending a hostile letter may just reinforce the "hostile, open and notorious" requirement of adverse possession (must be continuous, hostile, open and notorious). Sometimes sending a registered letter that says, "It's my property. I'm letting you use it for now, and I reserve the right to revoke that permission in the future" is enough to break the chain, as the possession would no longer be "hostile". You could then revoke your permission next month; but the "clock" would be reset and they would have to start counting the time that they occupied the property in a continuous, hostile, open and notorious way from then. The prior time that they have occupied the property would not count as the chain of continuity would have been broken. I hope I'm explaining this clearly. It's a complicated topic. Definitely consult an attorney. There is also the issue of an easement, which requires a lower standard than adverse posssession. Your attorney can help there. Good luck.

~Arlene


----------



## JLB (Nov 18, 2005)

Let me see if I can do this in order.

Jestjoan, Denise:

Read the thread on TS4Ms.  Read Janie's thread.  It is _adverse possession_.

This is an ongoing situation fueled by a neighborhood bully.  He has run our neighborhood by threats and intimation for 16 years. We are being targeted because we will not give our approval, or money, to rebuild the community dock, something which requires approval of all of the slipowners.  He and a couple of his ROF thugs have decided that their only course of action is to force us to move.  He has been successful in that four times in the past.

We have bought another lot and dock down the road and will leave under our own terms.

I won't get into the lawyer thing other than to say that the head bully has coerced others to tell the sheriff that I am the one doing the harassing, so the two assault charges and the harassment charge against him have been dropped.

We got as far as meeting with an attorney to get a restraining order, but his minimum fee was $2500.  At that time the criminal charges were such that an arrest appeared to be imminent, so we elected to let the criminal legal system run it's course.

I suspect that the civil side would run the same course as the criminal.  In court it would be our word v. all of theirs.
- - - - - -

pegs, nightnurse:

Sorta what I'm trying to figure out.  My gut feeling is that we should inform the neighbor that his use of our property should not be taken as our consent for him to take possession of our property.  He has only been there 3 years so he has not met the requirements for adverse possession.  Part of that, however, is that the party being encroached upon never objects, so I think we should.

They delight in upsetting us.  We have called 911 several times for the assaults, lurking around under the cover of dark, gunshots, etc., and the first thing the deputies always say is, "You know he is just doing this to upset you, and it is working."  Constructing a fence or doing anything to retaliate only encourages him/them, taking it to a higher level.  We have found our best defense is to smile and wave.  Then we really hear the profanity.

The log in my word processor is now 87 pages long, single-spaced of course, and I have sent more than 75 emails to the Chief Deputy, met with the Sheriff, Chief Deputy and Prosecutor, made several phone calls, have many audio tapes, plus photographs and video.  But like I said above, the evil doer trumped all of that by coercing his friends to lie for him.

When the Presecutor called to tell me he was not pursuing this, he said, "This is clearly just a case of neighbors who can't get along.  I have more people telling me it is you doing this to them than I have telling me it is them doing this to you."

The county does not really want to open this can of worms.  Many neighborhoods have some retired person who should not be in charge of anything finding themselves empowered by being in charge of a community dock, association, road, etc.  So many lack diplomacy.  It is a problem the real estate industry also turns it's back on.  

In our case, the head bully was in charge of everything~~~the dock, the road, the ditches, leaves, water running off your house . . .  I worked with 26 property owners and got our road upgraded, paved, and turned over to the County, a $60000 project and something he never could get done.  I don't think I need to explain the diplomacy required to get that done.  I even got $7600 from the head bully!  Now Jenny and I have our own dock down the road and he cannot even get his rebuilt.  Enough said.


----------



## JLB (Nov 18, 2005)

The shortest way to explain our problem is that three of our neighbors our old, retired and feel they are entitled.  They don't care about laws, or process, respect for others, or anything else.  All they care about is what they want and they want what they want when they want it.

For years and years they have never not gotten what they wanted.

I'm sure you know people like that.


----------



## arlene22 (Nov 18, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> He has only been there 3 years so he has not met the requirements for adverse possession.



The chain of continuous adverse possession includes previous owners. Be careful.


----------



## JLB (Nov 18, 2005)

arlene22 said:
			
		

> The chain of continuous adverse possession includes previous owners. Be careful.




Good, in that case we can make claim to the strip of land behind us, since we and previous owners of our house maintained it, without objection, for more than 15 years.     

I don't think I have mentioned yet that I looked into that, when the hateful neighbors behind us had another garage built (their third).  The attorney I contacted said that the presiding judge hates property line cases and is very prejudiced against anyone who brings them.
- - - - - - 

I guess the worst that could happen if I screwed this up is that we would lose that bit of land to a house that is already there.  He is already parking his car in the driveway, over our line.  Looking at our survey, his house is 5.4 feet over our line and the porch is 8.4 feet.  His car varies.


----------



## Gadabout (Nov 18, 2005)

Are you sure there is not some issue such as dementia involved? Are they driving safely?

From what you post (and in the other thread as well), it sounds like far more than a few people with nothing better to do in a neighborhood association/HOA taking over.


----------



## JLB (Nov 18, 2005)

Gadabout said:
			
		

> Are you sure there is not some issue such as dementia involved? Are they driving safely?
> 
> From what you post (and in the other thread as well), it sounds like far more than a few people with nothing better to do in a neighborhood association/HOA taking over.



I'm not sure I am following everything you are saying, bu, no dementia is not involved.  Meanness and bullying is.

In our area we do do have far more than a few people with nothing better to do than stuff like this.  In our case, however, it is really just one mean bully.  If he were out of the picture the others would not tag along.  

There are reasons why they tag along.  

First, they could actually agree with him, that they are entitled to whatever they want whenever they want it, and are entitled to use whatever means they want to get it.

Second, they know they will be next if they don't.

Third, some are not permanent residents.  This is their lake place.  So they don't have to deal with it constantly.  If they go along they are are treated well when they are here.

Fourth, they have not bothered to call the people who sold their houses to them, to find out why we are so _out of line._

Like I said, I dealt with 26 property owners on the road, permanent and seasonal, and had no problems except for the three here at the end of the road, all who had had road responsibility before and had failed to get done what I did.  They are the ones behind this.


----------



## somerville (Nov 18, 2005)

A utility easement does not normally permit the use for other purposes.  Unfortunately, I think it is time that you contact a lawyer and seek to enjoin the use for storage and other purposes.  You may want to resolve the other property issues at the same time.


----------



## JLB (Nov 18, 2005)

Because of Janie's situation, and this one, I pulled out my file from when I studied _adverse possession _ previously.

Under that topic on real-estate-law.freeadvice.com, it says "If you own land, it is important that you not _sleep on your rights _ since you could lose ownership of the land."

It also says, "The theory is that by not disputing your neighbor's use of your property through a lawsuit you as the actual owner have abandoned your rights to the property."

Another site specific to our state says that those who are using another's land with the consent of the true owner cannot claim advice possession because it is not _hostile_.

I just called another attorney and he is going hunting.  He is blind so we don't know exactly how he does that.  He is also a County Prosecuting Attorney.  I told him the problem will still be here when he gets back.

We're on our way to Silver Dollar City to meet some TUGgers.  I hope this is solved when we get back.


----------



## arlene22 (Nov 18, 2005)

They can certainly _argue_ that your lack of enforcement constitues abandonment. That argument may or may not work. 

It's a very sticky business, and that is why you need the guidance of an _experienced_ real estate attorney (not a general practice attorney). Careful navigation of the situation is required. There is a lot at stake, after all. 

If you tell them to leave, and they don't, then that is undeniably hostile, open and notorious possession (bolstering their claim for adverse possession). You really have to have a plan in place as to how you are going to enforce it if (when) they refuse/ignore your order. Otherwise you will have strengthened their case for legally taking your land. A lawyer may advise you to break the chain by giving permission (briefly) thereby restarting the clock (interrupts the continuously hostile part of the requirement). That would give you more time to explore your options and formulate your strategy.


----------



## JeffV (Nov 18, 2005)

Life is too short.  Sell out, move out and move on.  In selling out, I would make sure he has to remove his house on your side of the line.


----------



## Gadabout (Nov 18, 2005)

Do you have to disclose neighbor problems when selling in your area? If so, and you don't, you may find yourself rescinding the sale pretty quickly.

I mentioned dementia because the behaviors sound like someone who may or may not have other problems. Like Janie, saying her neighbor called 5 times in the same day. That is not rational behavior--neither is what you have been describing.

Another option, providing the place is of interest, is to try to get other people to move in who are like-minded (strength in numbers), or even try to get some environmental group involved in the litigation (if these people are as bad as you say, they are probably polluting the lake as well).


----------



## pegs099 (Nov 18, 2005)

Another thought....  You might want to contact the utility company that has the easement they are putting stuff on, and point out that the "attractive nuisance," that has been created may cause unneeded liability for them.  Take a couple of pictures... maybe with small children playing in front of the stuff.  Gee, you're just concerned with the kids in the neighborhood....


----------



## jkjsless (Nov 18, 2005)

*encroachment*

JLB,

I haven't read all the posts it great detail but I have a couple of observations, and can only really comment on what I understand the law to be in Ontario, Canada as it pertains to adverse possession etc. Things may be quite different where you are; however,

Was a building permit and final approval from the city ever obtained for the building encroaching on your property. If not, that may be a mechanism to force the offending structure to be torn down.

When was this structure erected on your property and when was the survey you possess created. If there has been open uncontested occupation of your property by any owners of the offending structure for the time period legislated by your state for adverse possession you are likely out of luck.

The length of time the current unlikeable neighbour has owned the property is irrelevant. The issue is how long the structure has been there, the time starts running from then, and doesn't matter that there has been 2,3 or 10 intervening owners.

Did you have the survey when you purchased the property? If so, your title opinion or title insurance may include a caveat that you do not own the piece of property when the neighbours house sits.

My two cents is either to speak with a lawyer and find out what your legal options are or move. IMHO life is too short to put up with jerks like this. Why live with this constant irritant when moving solves your problem. Yes, the jerk may think he's won but so what ... Who knows you may even move into a new neighbourhood full of TUGGERs


----------



## JLB (Nov 19, 2005)

Catching up.  Silver Dollar City was wonderful!    

*Jeff*:  Selling and moving on *and* requiring our neighbor to remove his house from our property is contradictory.

Now he has blown all of his leaves into the ditch, and not burned them.  We are the next culvert _downstream_, so that will mean a clogged culvert we will have to clear.  He likely did this at the direction of the head bully.  I'm serious.

*Gadabout*:  My comments about the real estate industry turning it's back on this problem and the County not wanting to open this can of worms means, no, neighbor problems are not disclosed in our area.  Only physcial things specifically affecting a parcel.  The one main bully has been here for 16 years and we know of at least five (counting) us that he has caused to move on.  I have talked to the larger brokers in our area about this problem and it is common, although ours is a little extreme.

No, they do not behave rationally, but there are many retired people who do not behave rationally.  It is not all that uncommon when you have too much time on your hands and have been getting your way for many, many years.  My mother was much the same.  Most people called it stubborn or selfish.

*Pegs*:  The utility company would have no interest or problem with the crap on the easement.  They come in every 5 years or so and brushhog the entire 30 foot width, and then they are gone.  The property owners behind us have talked about getting those wires buried.  Then they would plant and maintain all the way to 10 feet from our back porch.

BTW, when we bought our place they were not back there.  It was mostly just trees.

To complicate things there is an very old wire fence marking the easement and it is on *their* side of the easement, not ours.    

*jkjsless*:  The neighbor's house was there first.  It was built over the property line when our lot was vacant.  The owner of that house then built the house we live in, and moved into it.  Then they moved away and sold it to the family we bought it from.  I know this is hard to believe, but the man who built our house then moved back, into the house on the other side of our house!  So he had owned all three houses in a row at different times.  Even harder to believe is that he was the father of the head bully!  He passed away a couple years ago, at 95.

As to your comment about open, uncontested use of our property, in order for adverse possession to be used in our state that use would have to have hostile, meaning without our approval (the way I understand it), and that is not the case.

The encroachment has never been an issue because we and the previous owners of our property have always had an amicable relationship with the previous owners of our neighbor's property.  We and the previous owners of our property and the previous owners of our neighbor's property have all been targets of the bully.  The current neighbor is not.  The bully sucked up to him starting the day he moved in.

The survey done when we bought our propety is the one I have been referring to, the one showing his house encroaching. 

The reason we have stood our ground, and not moved, is likely the same reason Rosa Parks would not give up her seat and move to the back of the bus.

We will move, but it will be on our own terms and we will improve ourselves when we do.  In the thread over yonder I have discussed that we already bought another lot and dock down the road, very private and secluded.

We also know that once we move and are no longer conveniently available to be the bully's punching bag, they will eventually start on someone else.  We have set the stage at the sheriff's office for that likelihood.  The next in line will have an easier time resolving this than we have had, as we would have if the ones harassed before us had stood their ground a bit.


----------



## chap7 (Nov 19, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> We also know that once we move and are no longer conveniently vailable to be the bully's punching bag, *WE* will eventually start on someone else.



I'm sure you will.    

Edited to add smiley, which of course now changes the whole tone of my post.


----------



## TerriJ (Nov 20, 2005)

What does ROF mean?

I am learning many new terms on this BB.


----------



## Jestjoan (Nov 20, 2005)

I guessed Retired Old F---, but I have no idea if it's right or not.


----------



## Dave M (Nov 20, 2005)

Sounds like Hatfields versus McCoys. Both sides claim they are right and outsiders (e.g., the police) think both sides are behaving like children. 

Because this is a legal issue among neighbors, it would appear as though your choices are relatively straightforward, Jim:
Sell your home and move somewhere else.
Accept the situation and find a way to enjoy life in your neighborhood.
Continue to fight as you have been, realizing that the harassment is almost certain to continue indefinitely, perhaps with someone eventually getting injured or worse.
Spend the $2,500, plus what is almost certain to be more than that, to have a lawyer pursue this through the legal system. However, given the length of time your neighbor’s home has been on your property, I don’t like your chances for winning that part of the overall problem.

You can argue all you want that the police or district attorney should take a more active role in helping you. However, since they have conflicting reports and can't (or won't) decide who is telling the truth, they will almost certainly continue to believe you are a nuisance and won't help you. 

Also, it would not surprise me at all to have you report here some day that your home burned down and you are sure it was arson, although the police can't prove who did it. Thus, be sure that your homeowner's insurance is up do date for replacement cost, including improvements. Also be sure that any valuables are adequately protected or moved to a safe location.


----------



## chap7 (Nov 20, 2005)

Jestjoan said:
			
		

> I guessed Retired Old F---, but I have no idea if it's right or not.



Since your guess can be interpreted in more than one way, I'm going to add the "ART" for you.     Jim's much too classy a guy to mean anything else.


----------



## JLB (Nov 20, 2005)

Originally Posted by JLB
We also know that once we move and are no longer conveniently vailable to be the bully's punching bag, WE will eventually start on someone else. 



			
				chap7 said:
			
		

> I'm sure you will.




And since you are too classy a guy I am assuming your lack of a smilie was unintentional.     

Of course I meant _*he*_ will eventually start on someone else.

I say that because before they had us to focus on they were not happy with each other, both of the two cohort couples wanting to distance themselves from the pushy bully guy.  He is that way in eveything and they were just tired of it.


----------



## chap7 (Nov 20, 2005)

Now that's strange. I *distinctly* remember clicking on that winking icon.


----------



## JLB (Nov 20, 2005)

Dave's comments are a little extreme.

It *is* a bad situation, but they do know where to draw the line.  They know that what the Prosecutor is waiting for is blood or property damage, and they are smart enough not to cross that line.  

They keep tempting me into beating the crap out of the head bully, which would be a pleasure, but I will never touch him.  That burns them up.

They also know that because we did not just turn and run like the others, but brought the harassment out into the open for the first time, they are limited in what they can get away with.  They know everyone in the County that matters is watching our neighborhood.

We are also passed _arguing_ that the Prosecutor should do something based on the information he has.  If I were him I would not do anything either.  We are resigned that the hateful ones have played a good chess game, coercing lies in their favor.  They will have to account for that someday and that is not for me to judge.  

But, that gains them nothing, other than keeping them out of jail.  In doing so they have lost sight of what it was they wanted to gain~~~a rebuilt dock~~~and they are now further from that.

All of them know that they cannot now do this anyone else ever again.  Well, maybe they don't know that, but they can't. For the first time all of the newer owners are aware of the problem.  Up until now everyone that has been bullied has tippy-toed around the problem or just left. 

It will drive the head bully crazy knowing that he cannot turn on *any* of those who have supported him.  He simply cannot do that, he has to be so controlling.


----------



## John Cummings (Nov 20, 2005)

Dave M said:
			
		

> Sounds like Hatfields versus McCoys. Both sides claim they are right and outsiders (e.g., the police) think both sides are behaving like children.
> 
> Because this is a legal issue among neighbors, it would appear as though your choices are relatively straightforward, Jim:
> Sell your home and move somewhere else.
> ...



I agree with you 100%.


----------



## Kal (Nov 20, 2005)

I would just focus on who is the current legal owner of the questionable property.  Get a qualified lawyer and get the question solved.  You'll eventually have to face this when you sell the property so there's no time like the present.  Once resolved you can properly sell your land without endless delays in the sale.

SELL OUT AND MOVE!  Forget about grudges and open hostility.  When the neighbors don't like YOU and you don't like the neighbors it's time to move on.  It doesn't matter who's right or wrong.  Life is way to short unless you actually enjoy this type of lifestyle.


----------



## JLB (Nov 20, 2005)

jkjsless said:
			
		

> If so, your title opinion or title insurance may include a caveat that you do not own the piece of property when the neighbours house sits.



No it doesn't.  It has never been addressed legally.
- - - - - -

The neighborhood problem is a distraction to the question at hand because this neighbor is under the control of the head bully and the bully and his cohorts are using property rights in their campaign against us.  They have used three other neighbors' properties against us and we have every reason to believe the special attention our next-door neighbor is now receiving, after being  totally ignored by the hateful ones for three years, is to get him to try to do it also. 

The question at hand is as simple as in order to protect the ownership of our entire property, do we or do we not notify the neighbor of his encroachment and that we have not relinquished our rights to our entire lot because of it.

Do I continue to mow to the pins or not, even if that means mowing up to his house and then going around it.


----------



## Kal (Nov 21, 2005)

Just like doing your own dental work, take a vote from us qualified Tuggers and that'll save you from having to rely on some guy "practicing" law.


----------



## Dave M (Nov 21, 2005)

Jim --

You're really looking for free legal help from us. We don't have enough information or real knowledge about the laws of your state and your local area to make a definitive recommendation. Even if we did have that info, we aren't attorneys. Even if we were attorneys, we don't practice in your state.

That's why you have received advice from a number of people here to get professional legal help. If you choose not to do that, as it appears you have chosen, I think you're really on your own with the choices I listed above.


----------



## Aldo (Nov 21, 2005)

You've gotten some good advice hear regarding the legal concept of adverse possession, particularly with regards to using the concept of user license to break the continuity of the possession.

I'd ask, what makes you so sure of your interpretation of the boundary?

I'm a Licensed Land Surveyor.  In my area, many of the subvisions around Lakes were neverly correctly done in the first place, and can be VERY expensive to do correctly.  Lake lots in the Adirondakes are usually OK, but those in the southern part of the state are typically really bad.  As an extreme example, there is one lake nearby in which doing any one lot (from scratch) would involve a complete resurvey of the original farm and practically every lot on it.  This summer I gave an estimate to do one lot...my estimate was 20K to 30K.

The job was awarded for a price of 500 dollars.

Unfortunately, my profession is FULL of shady practicioners and ripoff artists, who instead of doing a proper job, will come out, take a look around, and set some pins...and the client is happy and thinks they have saved a lot of money.  

Such a survey is NOT going to stand up in court if opposed by a throughly researched job.

I'm not saying that this is the case in your particular situation, but I've seen it OVER and OVER again.


----------



## sfwilshire (Nov 21, 2005)

Aldo,

I found your post very interesting as I've always wondered how in the heck the surveyors ever find a point to start from that they can be sure of.

We live on a 50 acre farm that my father purchased many years ago. There is one corner tree that is still standing, so I feel good about that point. The rest of it, I'm not so sure of. About 30 years ago, at least the back line was surveyed because my folks gave me 5 acres. I don't think the whole farm was done.

I've considered having it surveyed just to confirm the acreage for real estate tax purposes. I contend that the county is charging me for at least five extra acres because they never deducted the five acres I was given from the total. Then when I combined the two pieces back together, they raised the total by five acres. They say only a survey would change it. So far, I've thought it was cheaper to just pay the extra taxes than to pay for the survey. 

Another issue relates to the road. My dad always said that they expanded the road on our side quite a bit when I was a child and never to let them do it on that side again. I guess any claim we would have had if they didn't do it properly (which I'm sure they probably didn't) would already be lost because of the adverse possession rules. I foresee the road being widened again soon because of the development of property on the other side of the ridge from us, and I really don't want to lose any more land on my side.

There are also some interesting issues regarding the land behind me that this has reminded me of. I guess we all need to find a good lawyer.

Sheila


----------



## Kal (Nov 21, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> The question at hand is as simple as in order to protect the ownership of our entire property, do we or do we not notify the neighbor of his encroachment and that we have not relinquished our rights to our entire lot because of it.
> 
> Do I continue to mow to the pins or not, even if that means mowing up to his house and then going around it.


 
The best thing you have going for you is the years and years of you paying property taxes on that 10 foot section.  But wait, you *DID *pay those taxes didn't you???  If not, best to think about refunding the person who did make those payments for "your land".


----------



## teachingmyown (Nov 21, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> So, what would you do with a next-door neighbor who is in cahoots with the hateful ones when his house is ten feet on our property?




Been there, but in Tennessee, not in your state.  What would I do?  Ask myself _exactly_ how important the issue is to me.  There is no question that it is important, or that there is a grievance.  The question is, is it important enough to warrant the headache involved in endeavoring to set it straight?  That headache will involve some expense (maybe more than "some") and a good bit of time, and energy, and maybe some hard feelings among neighbors.  If it means enough to you, then you must go to an attorney, get official legal advice and then proceed accordingly.  It if doesn't, then resign yourself to the fact that life isn't guaranteed to be fair and this problem won't go away, but that's ok.

In our case, the disputed property line was on a weekend lake lot which had been in the family for years and had been deeded to my mom and her brothers in joint ownership.  The neighbor first put his porch a few inches over the line, then proceeded to park his cars over the line and then --literally-- crossed the line when he added an addition that came over an amount my mom considered "significant".  It took multiple surveyors, several lawyers and two or three years and multiple court dates to get the judgment against the neighbor and then another year or so waiting for the time limits and appeals to run their course before a final agreement was reached.  For my mom it was worth it simply because of the principle involved.  That's a decision you'll have to decide yourself.


----------



## Jimster (Nov 21, 2005)

*Duh*

I am a property lawyer.  I must admit I didnt' read all the posts, too.  My question is why did you buy this property without an attorney?  I am assuming you did not have one.  If you did, why didn't he catch this and advise  you accordingly?  Also realize two things: 1.  If you claim against him, he probably has title insurance and thus his out of pocket cost may not be as great as expected.  2.  A court of equity is more likely to force a sale of the property ( you to him at fair market value) than to cause the house to be torn down.  Definitely contact a lawyer in your state that specializes in property law BEFORE you do anything you'll be sorry about. After you solve the problem, MOVE!  Who needs the agravation of living in such a crazy neighborhood.  The most outrageous thing we do in my neighborhood is drink to much at the block party.


----------



## dougp26364 (Nov 21, 2005)

Getting advice on how to handle your particular problem for your particular location (township, county, state et....) is iffy at best. You really need to set up an appointment with an attorny to see what your real options are. Everything else is pure speculation. 

As I see it, part of the price your paying is worrying about this mess and trying to figure it out on your own. An attorny will cost you a few $$ for the initial interview but you will at least know pretty well, if not exactly, where you really stand in this matter. Only then will you be able to make an informed decision and act upon it.


----------



## Dave M (Nov 21, 2005)

There seems to be a common theme in the advice you are getting, Jim...


----------



## MarTN (Nov 21, 2005)

How much money did they want to re-do the dock?   Could you send it to him and make this stop?


----------



## somerville (Nov 21, 2005)

sfwilshire said:
			
		

> I found your post very interesting as I've always wondered how in the heck the surveyors ever find a point to start from that they can be sure of.
> Sheila


For most of the US covered by the public land survey system established by the Northwest Ordinance of 1785, the surveyors set momuments at the corners of sections.  When I was practicing law in Missouri, there was a requirement that for a survey to be admissible as evidence in court, it had to start at a government corner (monument).  I believe the rule has been relaxed, but there are still standards for surveys that are used as evidence.  Generally the surveyor's report that supports a mortgage loan does not meet these standards.  

I don't believe that TN is part of the Northwest Ordinance survey system.  Nonetheless, the legal description of your property should include some starting point.  Hopefully, it is some permanent monument, and not some tree that died years ago.


----------



## Gadabout (Nov 22, 2005)

James Rosenberg said:
			
		

> I am a property lawyer.  I must admit I didnt' read all the posts, too.  My question is why did you buy this property without an attorney?



In some states (I think West Coast mostly) you almost never use a lawyer for ordinary residential property transactions. Just agent (if not a FSBO), and escrow company.  Really. Both the agents and the escrow co. make you sign papers saying they aren't lawyers and if you need legal advice, get one, but seldom is a lawyer involved, unless it is a very expensive property.


----------



## JLB (Nov 22, 2005)

MarTN said:
			
		

> How much money did they want to re-do the dock?   Could you send it to him and make this stop?



$7500.  No.  The dock is just an excuse to do it.  It will never stop.  It's been going on, openly or just below the radar screen, for more than ten years.  If it was not the dock it would be something else, or just because he likes to.


----------



## Kal (Nov 22, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> ...It will never stop. It's been going on, openly or just below the radar screen, for more than ten years. ....


 
_TEN YEARS!!!_  So please tell me why have you not sold and moved out long ago???


----------



## JLB (Nov 22, 2005)

Catching up Again:

Things I've said already:

_"It has never been addressed legally."_
- - - 
_"They have used three other neighbors' properties against us and we have every reason to believe the special attention our next-door neighbor is now receiving, after being totally ignored by the hateful ones for three years, is to get him to try to do it also. 

The question at hand is as simple as in order to protect the ownership of our entire property, do we or do we not notify the neighbor of his encroachment and that we have not relinquished our rights to our entire lot because of it."_
- - - 

I believe today is the day I will prepare the letter to the attorney.  (Third attorney to look at the neighborhood problem now.)  I believe Janie started her thread because she wanted a feel for what others would do in her situation, not to get internet legal advice.  Over the last seven years I have never relied on TUG advice as a subsitute for legal advice, but I do like it for a feel as to how others feel.

*In this case, since the bullies are getting others to use property rights against us, what I wanted was to find out if others would take action before the bullies get our next door neighbor to do the same, or wait until he does and then respond.  And, should we bring up the encroachment as a way to discourage him from supporting the bullies?*

The fact that his house is over our property line is not in dispute.  The survey is not is dispute. Since we are all near US Army Corps of Engineers land, there are many prominent government monuments.  The base of measurement for our subdivision is the GFTL on two of the four sides. 

FWIW, when we moved in I measured all of our distances between pins and they were accurate according to the legal descriptions.  I am a pin and tape guy.  I have located and measured between hundreds of them over the years.

And yeah, property does close in the normal course of business here with encroachments, and it does not require an attorney to do that.  Like I've said, it is not even noted in the paperwork.


----------



## Htoo0 (Nov 23, 2005)

JLB, Check out "Synchronized Christmas".  Set it up to some loud rap, beam some of the spotlights at your annoying neighbors, put on some hearing protection and enjoy the holiday season!


----------



## JLB (Nov 23, 2005)

Kal said:
			
		

> _TEN YEARS!!!_  So please tell me why have you not sold and moved out long ago???



I've always been able to take care of myself.  I believe that's what people think when they first become aware of the problem.  That's what those who try to stay neutral think, hoping that they will not be turned on.  But he will not let anyone be neutral.  he actually tells anyone not involved in the dispute that they have to choose, him or me!!!

We owned for four years before we decided to move to the lake.  By that time we knew that _he_ would be a problem.  I wanted to take care of him legally, by a restraining order, when we moved, but Jenny felt that would escalate the problem, and he had been somewhat behaving since the neighbors at that time voted him out of power in July, 1999.

The two areas he had control over were the road, which was private, and the community dock.  I told Jenny that if they became a problem I would take care of them.

When the road became a problem again two years ago, I stepped in, around him and his two compadres, and got it turned over to the County.  The three of them made the dock a problem a year ago and we are now taking care of that.  I had 26 neighbors to draw support from on the road, but there are only four, other than the bullies, in the dock.  But we are more than holding our own in that endeavor.

We have the new dock we have been trying to get for the last two years and he does not.

There have been some chuckles during this ordeal.  One of the bullies wives sent us a hateful email last April.  She said stuff like if we are broke she was sure someone would lend us the money.  She said her husband always has been such a sweet and capable person and she didn't understand why he could not do on the road what I did.  She said Jenny and I are not team players.  That was the stuff I can share here.

Actually, we are team players.  Just not their team.    

They are and have always been incompetent bunglers.  They have cost their neighbors thousands of dollars by not attempting to turn the road over to the County years ago and by managing the dock poorly.  All they ever want is what they want and they do not like to be confused by facts.

Added:  Of course, we naively assumed that if he ever started doing criminal illegal things, which he has this year, it would just be a matter of us documenting it and the legal system would take care of him.  Since his ex-cop co-conspirator has found a way to get him around that, we have moved forward with our plans to move forward.  

I am, and always have been, a little Rosa Parks.  We are not the problem and should not be the one to give up our paradise.  Except for him it would be.  His cohorts would not do this on their own.  The problem will continue until someone takes a stand, and that is us.

At this point, after 10 years, we are mostly numb to him.  When he hides in the shadows at night and shouts obscenities at us, we pretty much just laugh.  He mouthed to me yesterday while I was burning leaves, and I just moved to where he could not see me.


----------



## JLB (Nov 23, 2005)

Dave's said:
			
		

> JLB, Check out "Synchronized Christmas".  Set it up to some loud rap, beam some of the spotlights at your annoying neighbors, put on some hearing protection and enjoy the holiday season!




Are you looking for a place at the lake?


----------



## Kal (Nov 23, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> We are not the problem and should not be the one to give up our paradise.....


 
*Paradise?????*


----------



## JLB (Nov 23, 2005)

I'm heading to the post office with the letter to the attorney.  We are asking him to address the innappropriate conduct of our neighbors and the encroachment.

Happy Thanksgiving.    
- - - - -

Kal:  Time is on our side.  They are much older.    

Pictures are available here:

http://www.timeshareforums.com/showthread.php?p=14215#post14215


----------



## Htoo0 (Nov 23, 2005)

*lake place*

Maybe in about 5 years when I retire.  Hey, if they're still around?


----------



## JLB (Nov 23, 2005)

Dave's said:
			
		

> Maybe in about 5 years when I retire.  Hey, if they're still around?



If you come visit you will likely fall in love with the place. We have had many TUG guests who have.  All have said they could handle whatever the neighbors dish out.  

One of our recent guests actually did buy a place across the lake, after looking at the house between the head bully and one of his asst. bullies.

It was after dark when we came out of that house tour and the head bully was waiting for us in the road.  But it did not seem to bother our guests.  They just said they had a guy like that at their lake place in Minnesota and they could handle this one too.


----------



## JLB (Nov 23, 2005)

*MarTN*

How's that $99 mower running?


----------



## pegs099 (Nov 24, 2005)

*Hang in there*

I know from experience that it's hard to keep up the fight all the time, when what you want is peace, but I admire you for keeping it up.  Frankly, it inspires me in some things I have to handle.  You should have a nice big TUG party and we can all come and make faces at him!  Sometimes there is power in numbers.  Also consider going to your town board with some of these problems.  It's harder for people to deny things as you go over their heads.


----------



## JLB (Nov 24, 2005)

Thanks.

One of the problems is that there is no _town board_ because there is no town.  Many of the things that most people take for granted, such as noise,  public intoxication, public obsecenty, discharging firearms, etc., ordinances do not exist.

While driving today for Thanksgiving, in separate vehicles, I talked to Jenny by cell phone about settling with our neighbors.  Let them have their dock if they will commit to a voluntary restraining and gag agreement, so that it truly will be the end to all the hatred.

But, if they want to continue doing this to us or to others, there is no reason to let them have the doick.


----------



## bogey21 (Nov 25, 2005)

If money is no object, my strategy would be to (1) force the issue on the encroachment and get it resolved hopefully with payment to you for that portion of your land which is being encroached upon (I don't think the courts would order the property torn down); (2) either rent or abandon the house (tearing down the house if practical) keeping taxes current; and (3) turn up the pressure, through the courts if necessary, re their stuff on your property and the junk on the portion of the easement that runs through your property.  The idea is for you to maintain veto power over the dock (by not selling) which you believe is important to the bully.  He (they) will eventually either die or have to come crawling to you.  The downside to this approach is its cost and their abily to dump junk on your property and try to get the gov't to force you to remove it.

GEORGE


----------



## bogey21 (Nov 25, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> I talked to Jenny by cell phone about settling with our neighbors.  Let them have their dock if they will commit to a voluntary restraining and gag agreement, so that it truly will be the end to all the hatred.



Do you really believe that they would live up to any agreement??  You're too smart for that!!

GEORGE


----------



## JLB (Nov 25, 2005)

Details get lost in explaining.  The utility easement behind our house is on the property behind us, abutting our property.  That is where the ex-cop/asst. bully lives.  When we bought our house all that was behind us was a long-abandoned garage-type building.  There is an old wire fence and it is on the other side of the easement, not on our property line.  We and the others before us in our house have maintained that area behind our house for 14 years, until the three couples put the crap back there in May. 

Although it amounts to a veto, we have not vetoed anything.  We have not even been allowed a vote on anything, attend a meeting or hear what various plans were considered, so we could not have voted no.  The bullies owned 6 of the 10 slips so assumed they could do whatever they wanted.  What we have done is nothing, not given approval for the rebuilding plan.  

But, the jist of it is the same.  They want something from us (our approval), and we want nothing from them, except to be left alone.

The first attorney we talked said, "Why didn't they just buy you out?", his way of saying that normal people settle impasses with money.  Regarding the head bully he said, "Why didn't you just hit him with a baseball bat way back when?!"

I know this will likely complicated it, but if I haven't said it, two months before they decided on their plan and ask for our $6818.70, I sent an email to everyone in the dock and told them I could get the dock rebuilt for $5600 apiece.  But, if they wanted more bells and whistles we would not stand in their way, and we offered them $6000~~~just take our money and don't bother us, don't tell us who is doing the work or what the plan is.

They assigned the ex-cop to get our money.  Again I offered the $6000 if they would just leave us alone, and he refused it.  It would mean the others just paying $90 extra per slip.  About a month ago they ask if we would consider giving our approval if they paid our entire share!

When I did the road there were a half dozen property owners who did not feel what we were asking per share was worth it to them.  Rather than just blow them off, get everyone upset, and probably derail the entire project, I asked them to think awhile as to what it would be worth to them.  Everyone I asked paid _some_ money, and was part of the project.  The head bully had never gotten money from more than 12 or 14 owners before, and had never collected more than $10,000 and I got money from 26 owners totalling $62,500 and a 700-foot easement from an absentee owner.

One owner had just filed bankruptcy, so I just planned the shares without them, but the three bullies have cussed them out ever since.  Another was strapped at the time, so I took a promissory note from him.  He sat down last week and wrote out checks totalling $3800 and I mailed them to all the contirbutors.

It just seems easier to do business with a smile on your face, leading people where you would like them to go, than standing face-to-face and cussing them out.  None of us doing these these projects have any legal right to force any of our neighbors to do anything, so using threats and intimidation is not the way to go.


----------



## JLB (Nov 27, 2005)

*MarTN*



			
				MarTN said:
			
		

> How much money did they want to re-do the dock?   Could you send it to him and make this stop?



Actually, there is a reason why this will not work.

The Corps does not care how docks go about conducting business.  All they care about is that docks obey the rules of the Corps.  For most actions (modifying a dock by adding slips or a swimdeck, changing the permitee, moving a dock, and a few more) the Corps only requires the approval of a majority of the slipowners.  Rebuilding requires unanimous approval.

Years ago when the hateful bully first showed his hand to us, over a dock matter, when I notified the Corps about how he was treating us and others, the Corps said they do not get involved in matters like that.  That was a private matter that needed to be addressed by other legal means (law enforcement or civil suit).

They have said the same thing now.

The three hateful ones (who now own a majority of the ten slips) have also drawn up a set of by laws and rules, ones that will obvious favor them, but they have refused to discuss them until they get the unanimous approval of the rebuilding plan.  We asked them to put them on the table now, as part of the rebuilding plan, and subject them to a unanimous vote, but they just ignore us.  

The Corps requires unanimous approval of the formation of dock associations and the permittee for _new_ docks and for community docks in which all owners sell to all new owners, but not for existing docks.

We recently asked them that, and what we can do about the closed meetings and planning that continue behind our backs, and the Corps' answer was _work that out amongst yourselves._

Once we get passed the unanimous vote on the rebuilding plan, the hateful ones can do whatever they want to whomever they want and we would be a ripe target for retaliation, one of the head bullies specialties.  He loves getting even.  This dispute is because I was able to get our road done when he did not.  He divvies out and withholds favors based on loyalty.

Here's a couple of points in the bylaws and rules they are waiting to put into effect:  A limitation on the number of guests a slipowner can have on a given day/weekend, with a signup sheet, and forbidding an owner to sell a slip to someone who does not live in our neighborhood.

You can imagine how we will be treated after we give our approval, if we ever do, since they will then not need us in any way.


----------



## JLB (Nov 29, 2005)

I tend to repeat myself, so maybe I have said this before.

I tend to repeat myself, so maybe I have said this before.   :biggrin: 

When we saw that the three bullies intended to do whatever they wanted, imposing new rules, etc., we transferred our slip in the community dock to Jenny's brother.  That was done last January.  That way they could not prevent us from selling it to an _outsider_, one of the rules they planned, and, they would have no business with Jenny and me so would have to leave us alone.

Obviously, the second part didn't work.

They have continued to meet, actually more than 50 times since Mark became the owner of our slip, and have never invited him or told him what was discussed at any meetings.

About a month ago I had Mark email the Corps and ask what he could do about that.  Their answer was to _work that out amongst yourself_.

Then we heard that they are planning on building a new dock and leaving Mark/us out of it.  I won't go into the details of how unlikely that would be, just ignoring someone's private property and their rights to it, but I have been discussing the possibility with another seasonal neighbor across the road, who owns his own dock.

So, I had Mark send another email, this time to the head Ranger, asking if the Corps would allow them to do anything of that nature, abandoned the old dock or get a permit to build a new dock.

The answer came yesterday, from the Ranger responsible for our bank, and it says, "Please give me a call.  I would like to speak to you about this dock.  We may need to meet in person."

That's not as assuring as, "No they can't do that."

In the mean time it has been windy, cold and miserable.  We have damage on our dock but I can't do anything until the weather gets better.


----------



## JLB (Dec 1, 2005)

*The Following Is Simply Unbelievable!!!!!*

After years of telling us they will not get involved with disagreements on docks, abusive dockmasters, etc., including an email from them as recently as 11/1/05, saying, "Work it out amongst yourselves," the US Army Corps of Engineers Table Rock Office has given those who have taken over our community dock permission to rebuild it _*without*_ the unanimous approval to all the slipowners.  This is in direct violation of their own rules.

They said they did it because they are tired of messing with it.

Last April they ordered those who have taken over the dock to meet with us and work things out, and they never have.  All they have done is harassed us, intimidated us, assaulted us and tried to force us to go along.  No one ever even remotely said, "What will it take?  Let's sit down and work it out."

They have met more than 50 times planning and plotting against us and have never informed us the results of their meetings.

By their action the Corps has awarded those who behaved badly and has sentenced us, our family and our guests to future hatred and abuse.  Those who have taken over the dock can now pass whatever rules they want, including retaliation against us, putting liens on our slip and forbidding us from going on the dock, if they wish, and they will.

So, what would you do now?


----------



## Dave M (Dec 1, 2005)

I would move.


----------



## Gadabout (Dec 1, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> After years of telling us they will not get involved with disagreements on docks, abusive dockmasters, etc., including an email from them as recently as 11/1/05, saying, "Work it out amongst yourselves," the US Army Corps of Engineers Table Rock Office has given those who have taken over our community dock permission to rebuild it _*without*_ the unanimous approval to all the slipowners.  This is in direct violation of their own rules.
> 
> They said they did it because they are tired of messing with it.
> 
> ...



Well, you just missed "sweeps" month on TV (November). I think February is the next one. You might want to see if you can discuss this with either a TV or print reporter if you really want to expose this to the light of day. And no, I'm not making fun here.

I have read all your postings (including your link on the other forum) and it reinforces my opinion that all PUDs and even informal neighborhood "associations" are completely worthless.  This isn't one of those "perfect" types of places that Erik Estrada is pitching on TV again, is it?

Since it is a lake with a dock, I assume that means you could also have those little Seadoo things buzzing about on a regular basis (I know, wrong time of year right now)?  You wouldn't have to launch them from the dock, would you? Maybe hold a nice charity event with lots of people....

Are you sure they can make up rules depriving you of what was originally in your deed/purchase agreement?  I should think any good lawyer would have a field day with your neighbors doing what you say they will in your last statement, which is essentially taking money and not allowing you access. You may have to go to federal court over it, if it is that important to you, and only you can decide that.


----------



## teepeeca (Dec 1, 2005)

*contact officials*

Have you tried filing a "formal" complaint with the Corp of Engineers in Washington DC?  What about writing your congressman and senators?

Do any of the state's "higherarchy" want to get involved?  Local and state media--TV/ radio/ etc.?

Tony


----------



## Htoo0 (Dec 1, 2005)

If there are rules which are being ignored, then "what they said".  Go up the chain of command, contact the press, hire an attorney. Direct this at the Corps.  They hate press involvement, lawsuits, pressure from elected officials, etc.  Even the threat of them may be enough to change their minds and enforce the rules.  Best of luck.


----------



## JLB (Dec 1, 2005)

*Good Suggestions*

These are things we have been thinking about or already done.

I already went to a higher-up at the Corps, the person everyone here reports to.  That was last May and he told us to continue on the path we were on.  He, the head ranger, and the duty ranger here have all told us nothing suspicious would be allowed on our dock and all confirmed the unanimous approval rule.

Amazingly, our attorney two attornies ago called back today.  I have always respected his advice while not being able to stomach his failure to communicate with us and his price tag.

I still respect his advice,  which today I got for free.  It is:  he can take $10000 of our money and make our neighbor's lives a bunch of ----.  He can get a restraining order on them and an injunction to stop the building of the dock.  He can fight the Corps, probably make them stand by their rules.

Then, after all of that, the dock is going to get built, because the Corps has already made that decision.

He said the worst they can do to us is put a lien on our slip, but so what.  Don't pay it.  Ignore them, don't give them any money, move your boat to your new dock and let them sit there with an empty slip in their's.

And, he said, why the ---- haven't sold and the ---- away from those --------.

We know the bullies asked the Corps if they could rebuild the dock without our slip in it.  They were told NO, they have to leave our slip in it.  We are sure they were also told since we did not approve the rebuilding plan they have to pay our share, but I'm trying to get that confirmed.

So, things could be worse than a brand-new slip for free.  That is essentially where I was at last week.

I'm leaning toward one email to the Corps and then let things roll as they will.  After all, we have a dock of our own and the Corps can do whatever they want with us on it.  

The lesson:  Even those who make the rules and insist on everyone obeying the rules, don't.

Those who have taken over our dock are the type that will let everyone on Table Rock Lake know what they have gotten away with.  This will come back to haunt the Corps many times over when the other -------- dock managers start running roughshod over their owners, conducting business without owners' approval..

I don't think I ever said this, but six of our ten slips were once owned by people that have gotten similar treatment, so have left.  The head ------- has to behave this way.  He doesn't know any other way.  Our satisfaction is that sooner or later he is going to turn on someone, or all, who is/are now supporting him, and it will be their own fault.


----------



## Kal (Dec 2, 2005)

JLB - For some odd reason you obviously enjoy this nonsense.


----------



## cgeidl (Dec 2, 2005)

*Move*

If you stay you may win the battle but lose the war. If we lived there we couldn't move quick enough. Why spend your life expending so much negative energy???Seems like the police, attorneys, aand neighbors are all against you.
I don't think I could ejoy living there if there were no encroachment problems.


----------



## John Cummings (Dec 2, 2005)

I agree with Kal, I think Jim likes all of this stuff.


----------



## JLB (Dec 2, 2005)

It goes without saying that the comments suggesting I/we enjoy this kind of stuff are nonsense, a bit harsh.  I would like to be able to twitch my nose and have them trade places and see how they would deal with it.  (or maybe twitch their nose   )  But, this is a public forum, where _nearly_ all folks are welcome, those with compassion and . . . .  

That sort of reaction from a limited number is not unusual here.  I remember in the Spring of 2002 when both Fern and I were having the same problem with one of the exchange companies.  Several here got involved and helped me. I kept reporting and the thread grew, the bulk of the contributors being people sincerely interested in a successful outcome.  Yeah, I did enjoy what we were able to accomplish together, the 139-page study I sent to the exchange company.  When it came, an outcome I was OK with, a couple were very disappointed that they had gotten strung along for all that time and a major change in that exchange company did not come about.

That's life on the Internet.

I do, however, enjoy sharing and the feedback I get from friendly and supportive folks here, and elsewhere.  Dozens of TUGger have been here, been on the dock, spent a day on the swim deck swimming in the lake, been out in the boat, so this seems like a natural place to discuss it.

They realize that this is something that has/is consumed us.  Stuff like this is next to impossible to go through on your own and I appreciate the open ear and crutch TUG provides.  

I am not the only one that opens their heart to others here.  We talk about life, illness, death, financial hardship, bad personal relations, and on and on.  I would hope that the Lounge will always be here for that purpose and we are not discouraged by the few.

Yeah, it sometimes is a foolish thing to do, sharing with others that is.  Like folks always say, don't tell others your troubles.  Some don't care and the others are glad you have them.    

Today I feel as this episode is pretty much a done deal.  Things are different than when the thread started.  Things are different that they were three days ago. 

I have gotten the professional legal advice that I needed and some here encouraged.  I do not feel there is anything we can do about our neighbors, the sheriff, the prosecutor, or the US Army Corps of Engineers.  Jenny and I stood on high moral ground.  We were up there all alone, but at least we didn't get any of the stuff down lower on us.    

Our hateful neighbors are very good at what they do, good enough to convince government agencies to ignore their own laws, rules and policies solely for their own benefit.  This is the third time the same three guys have concocted a story and gone to a government agency and gotten their way.

That is why six of the ten slips in the dock are not owned by the same people that owned them when we came here 8 years ago.

I am smart enought to know not to fight those sorts of odds.  I thought I could handle the head bullies.  I believe in good over evil.  I did get the road done, at least.

If our neighbors can manage to be good winners and this is really over, everyone is better off.  If that's case, the Corps did the right thing.  It's sorta shooting a horse with a broken leg.  

There's not many things uglier than a bad winner.

So they are going to build the dock and they have to include our slip in it.  They will either sue us for our share of the cost even though they offered to pay it and even though we never gave our approval, or they won't.  If they do and win, they will either put a lien on our slip or they won't.

So what?  

We will still wind up with a new slip in a new dock and it's increase in market value will be more than our share of the cost to rebuild it, even if we have to pay.

If things go as planned we will be in a new lakefront house down the road, out of the bullies' subdivision and not in their sight.  We will have our own 6-slip dock on the bank below our new house, something none of the bullies will have.  We will still be on the road I spent 15 months of pretty much full-time volunteer time getting built.

Eventually, the bullies will turn on someone else, probably those who have stood by their side, bought their lies, because they always have, eventually.  Before this they did not like jet skis, people bringing guests to the dock, people parking cars on the road in front of their houses, and kids.  They have had to suck up to those people and allow all that to get their support.  All that will be over now and eventually they will strike out at those they no longer need.

In the beginning, the head bully told a very Christian couple that he has recently found God, in order to get thier support.  Since then he has blasphemed the Lord every chance he gets. _Vengeance is mine,_ sayeth who?

And, since the three bullies did not really like each other coming into this, and I/we are the focus that brought them together, when they longer have me to pick on they will likely turn on each other also.

Their dock has bad karma, old or new, and always will.  They will always feel the bad vibes of all the fights and ill will that have taken place there, not just us, but all the others over the years.

And yeah, when they picked on me they picked on the wrong guy.

And we still have an ace in the hole.  We can sell our house and our slip in their dock to whomever we please.  As an example, another house on our road is held in trust by a nice Catholic family with 11 grown and married brothers and sisters.  You can imagine how many that means, including all of them, their kids, cousins, friends, etc.  You should see their place on memorial Day, Labor Day, and the 4th of July.  Our house would make a nice lake place for that type of family.     

Life can be ------, but I keep it in perspective.  At least we are not screwed, forgotten, ignored by the government like Katrina victims.


----------



## Gadabout (Dec 2, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> And we still have an ace in the hole.  We can sell our house and our slip in their dock to whomever we please.  As an example, another house on our road is held in trust by a nice Catholic family with 11 grown and married brothers and sisters.  You can imagine how many that means, including all of them, their kids, cousins, friends, etc.  You should see their place on memorial Day, Labor Day, and the 4th of July.  Our house would make a nice lake place for that type of family.
> 
> Life can be ------, but I keep it in perspective.  At least we are not screwed, forgotten, ignored by the government like Katrina victims.



Tell them you're also looking into using your place for a deserving Section 8 family....


----------



## bogey21 (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm curious what you are going to tell prospective purchasers about their dock ownership.  

Another thought.  I like the idea of going to Corps of Engineers Headquarters in DC with a short, consise description of how the local Corps violated their rules, and how knowledge that they did it will get around and impact the lake.

GEORGE


----------



## JLB (Dec 2, 2005)

bogey21 said:
			
		

> I'm curious what you are going to tell prospective purchasers about their dock ownership.
> 
> Another thought.  I like the idea of going to Corps of Engineers Headquarters in DC with a short, consise description of how the local Corps violated their rules, and how knowledge that they did it will get around and impact the lake.
> 
> GEORGE




It's amazing how high and mighty lake buyers are.  They think they can handle anything, just like we did.  Many of our TUG guests just kinda shrug it off and say something like, "Yeah, we had a problem like this once."

I lean toward being honest (part of my problem) so I would tell them the slip is $25000, or however much it is then, and then take care of the lien (if there is one) out of that.

Part of my study of this problem has been talking to a couple of the brokers in the larger real estate offices.  This type of problem, with so many retirees being in charge of docks, roads, associations, etc., is common, and the official policy is to not mention it to prospects.  The only things on the Disclosure Statement are mandatory fees.  Neighbor disputes are not covered by the real estate disclosure laws.

As to reporting to higher-ups in the Corps, how do you think that would play out when Clint (our Ranger) comes out to inspect our new flotation (when we put it in), our new electrical system (when we put it in) and the roof extension we have built to protect our boat?

The locals know the higher-ups are already aware of the problem and they made the decision they did.

Frankly, it is a good decision from the standpoint of ending of all this, if it does do that.  Kal and John won't have to hear about any more.  But, if the bullies only use it as a springboard to more offensive conduct, then it was a big mistake.  For now, it is a relief to not have to wonder what the old farts are up to running around to each others' houses carrying their little envelopes and pieces of paper.  We know what they are up to!

FWIW, I just ran to Wal Mart and met them on the way out, head bully driving and his two captains riding.  Actually, it's more like a captain and a sergeant.    

Jenny finds it intersting that someone thinks that someone in a cushy Washington, DC job, far removed from the front lines, would give a rip about what's going on at the end of the road in Lampe, MO.


----------



## JLB (Dec 2, 2005)

An interesting point I am waiting to see how the Corps handles~~~There are legal documents each slipowner has to execute for a rebuild.  An Approval Letter and a Bill of Sale, which gets recorded.

It will be interesting how the US Government proposes to force a citizen to execute legal documents against their will.

Then, of course, since they know that is being done against their will, it will be interesting on what grounds they can force the person to pay for something their approval was required for, but not given.

But, still, if they have that figured out and are not going to force us to execute documents against our will or pay for something we do not want, I'm not all that un-OK with this.  After all, on November 24 I did say:

*"While driving today for Thanksgiving, in separate vehicles, I talked to Jenny by cell phone about settling with our neighbors. Let them have their dock if they will commit to a voluntary restraining and gag agreement, so that it truly will be the end to all the hatred."*


----------



## Kal (Dec 2, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> ... Kal and John won't have to hear about any more....
> 
> ...someone in a cushy Washington, DC job, far removed from the front lines, would give a rip about what's going on at the end of the road in Lampe, MO.


 
Do you REALLY think anyone in the Federal Government either has the time or desire to care about the little guy who makes no political contribution$?  Yep, I'm from the Federal Government and I'm here to help you....HAH!

If I were your beloved neighbors I would just slap a lien on your house for the % owed.  Then I know I'll get my $$$$$ at the time of any sale.


----------



## resp20 (Dec 2, 2005)

Jim, I don't care what other posters might think, I have nothing but admiration for how you handled your problem. If you don't stand up for whats right in this life you'll never be able to hold your head up. Anyone that tells you to cut and run is wrong and just shows whats wrong with this country. Don't ever forget, they can kill you but they can't eat you! I thank God theres still a few real men still out there that stand up for whats right. 
          Bill


----------



## JLB (Dec 3, 2005)

Thanks Bill:

I've been waffling.  Accept our fate or continue to fight.

Last night my brain would not shut off when I went to bed, so I got up and it wrote the letter that seems to be called for.  It was involuntary on my part and useless to fight it.  I had to write it.

We've fought this hard for 8 years it seems like not appealing would be admitting that the lies the Corps has been told about us, to get the Corps to take our rights away from us, are true.

They are not.  The bullies have lied to our Commission, the Sheriff, the electric company, all the neighbors and those in our dock, and now the Corps.

I sent the Bill of Sale for Jenny's brother to transfer the slip back to us and once I turn it in I will decide whether to send the letter.  It will go to the people it needs to go to.

I will include a transcript of one of the head bully's assaults of me, the one I call the "I'll grab you be the ------- throat and cut your ------- head off" transcript.

I am not opposed to the old farts getting their dock.  How the Corps is going about this, how they expect to compel us to execute legal documents against our will, pay for something we do not approve of, and what terms or restrictions have been on the old farts need to be spelled out in writing.

Because I have not slept for two days I'll defer commenting on/to the naysayers.  (anyone got a sleeping smilie?)


----------



## JLB (Dec 3, 2005)

Kal said:
			
		

> If I were your beloved neighbors I would just slap a lien on your house for the % owed.  Then I know I'll get my $$$$$ at the time of any sale.



Even though I'm tired and cranky and said I wasn't going to reply to this today, on my way back to Wal*Mart to get the _other_ orange bag of catfood (as I took the one in I was returning, the guy putting the return sticker on it said, "Wife sent you to do her shopping, huh?" and when I got to the service counter the lady said, "Wife sent you to do her shopping, huh?") the answer just came to me, involuntarily, like the letter I had to write last night.

That type of action, especially when you know I am ready to settle the dispute forever and move on, is exactly what has kept it going for so many years. And if you actually followed through with it, it would pretty much guarantee what kind of new neighbors and dockmates~~~in the slip right next to yours~~~you are going to have. 

You don't know me but I can assure you that you could have a lot worse neighbors than Jenny and me.


----------



## JLB (Dec 4, 2005)

Kal said:
			
		

> If I were your beloved neighbors I would just slap a lien on your house for the % owed.  Then I know I'll get my $$$$$ at the time of any sale.




Now after a night's sleep (the dream analyzers would have a hey-day with mine last night   )

This reminds me of Spy vs. Spy.  It was always funny in Mad Magazine, but not so funny in neighborhood relations.  

Like I said, just when we were ready to settle, here comes this.  I even sat down the other morning with a legal and wrote out a settlement agreement, one in which we were giving up quite a lot in return for harmony.

But it takes two sides to negotiate.  

Rewarding bad behavior . . . no telling where that will lead.

Like the attorney said, so what if they put a lien on our house?  There's ways to get the money out of our house without selling it, and have it actually produce income for us, until long after all of them are gone.

Wouldn't it make more sense to bury the hatchet?


----------



## bogey21 (Dec 4, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> Wouldn't it make more sense to bury the hatchet?



You bury yours.  The bully doesn't bury his.  Who wins the next fight?

GEORGE


----------



## Kal (Dec 4, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> Wouldn't it make more sense to bury the hatchet?


 
It sounds like there is SOOOO MUCH water over the bridge I really doubt the ax can be buried (in the ground).  Toss some leaves in the air and see which way the wind is blowing.  It's likely blowing in your direction i.e. the "they hate me" direction.

Besides, if you bury the ax look at all the fun you'll be missing out on.  No more land grabs.  No more junk piled up next to your property.  No more smoke in your direction.  No commie conspiracy.  Other than in Kosovo there's no where else you can find that kind of action.


----------



## JLB (Dec 4, 2005)

When you share on the Internet occassionally someone comes along who has the situation sized up perfectly.  They even come up with good ideas.

That makes up for all the rest.

Check out Oracle's astute assessment of the situation and his (?) excellent suggestion.  (Hmmm . . . assessment . . . how appropriate)

http://www.timeshareforums.com/showthread.php?p=15511#post15511


----------



## arlene22 (Dec 4, 2005)

I second Oracle. Not only does it show the non-bullies that this was not about you trying to screw everyone and get something for free, but it will also infuriate the Bullies, who will now be the ONLY ones paying for your nice new slip. Poetic justice.

Good luck!

~Arlene


----------



## JLB (Dec 5, 2005)

Kal said:
			
		

> JLB - For some odd reason you obviously enjoy this nonsense.




I say tomayto, you say tomahto.

Martyr trying to make things better for all, *or* dangerous, self-center, sick-in-the-head, pot-stirring, troublemaking, agitator--not a team player?

Sometimes it's a fine line.  

History does tell us that most martyrs were in the minority, seemed out-of-step, and had few supporters.  The bulk of those around during their noble deeds considered them the latter.


----------



## Kal (Dec 5, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> Martyr trying to make things better for all, *or* dangerous, self-center, sick-in-the-head, pot-stirring, troublemaking, agitator--not a team player?


 
Nah, it's just a matter of quality of life. A person needs to focus on the good things, smell the roses etc. There's just not enough time to have to deal with terminal idiot neighbors day in and day out. At some point one needs to just move on....get outta Dodge.

Right now I'm planning a neighborhood Holiday Party to be held in my home. My plans keep going sideways as one neighbor after another wants to bring something special. The last message was she's bringing Champagne Punch for the crowd. Someone else wants to bring Smoked Copper River Salmon from Alaska. Isn't that a bit better than the daily Hatfield/McCoy warfare????


----------



## JLB (Dec 6, 2005)

We got the Bill of Sale back today, to transfer the slip back to us.

As predicted, since those who have taken control of the dock are no longer talking to us or Mark, today he received the letter from them informing him that the Corps has approved their plan to rebuild, and asking for his $7700, up from the original $6800.

They did not send him a copy of the letter the Corps sent to them giving approval, so they are not divulging the terms of that approval, if there are any.

We will turn the Bill of Sale into the Corps, find out what's going on, since we can now talk to them, and then those who have taken over our dock can mail their stuff all over again.

Their refusal to accept the $6000 we offered at the beginning, which represented $90 extra for each of them, is now costing at least $9000.  Of course, we are the ones being blamed for that.


----------



## Kal (Dec 6, 2005)

Don't open any Christmas presents you find on the front porch with a tag:

"Thinking about you during this holiday season....from the McCoys"


----------



## JLB (Dec 7, 2005)

Three weeks in Florida is sounding pretty nice.  

We're gonna get around and head over to the Corps.


----------



## JLB (Dec 8, 2005)

An agent emails me every new lake listing in the area.  It is all computer generated, so as soon as anyone puts one on MLS, we see.

This morning there is 9 lakefront acres with a private dock and a cabin on Bull Shoals Lake, 30 miles east of Branson, for $25000 less than our private dock and 100-foot lot here, on Table Rock Lake 25 miles west of Branson.

Maybe worth driving over to.  Maybe we could start a commune.


----------



## JLB (Dec 9, 2005)

Yesterday, 03:40 PM  
JLB  
*Funny Incident* 

When we turned the Bill of Sale in yesterday, there was one other guy there in the Corps office, trying to get something straightened out.

An hour later as we were leaving Wal Mart, he was coming in, "So, I said, How's everything over at the Corps?" We laughed and he told us about all the problems he is having.

When we told him the problems we were having with the ones running our community dock, he understood. We told him they want to rebuild and the price is $7700 per slip. Since $5500 is about the going rate he couldn't believe it. He wanted to know what all they were having done.

Then we told him that the Corps waived the unanimous approval rule so we couldn't do anything about it. He said, Oh, you mean they just want to add slips and we said, no, rebuild the whole dock.

He said, "They can't do that!"

Oh yeah?

We haven't from the Corps yet.


----------



## JLB (Dec 9, 2005)

*Same Song Next Verse*

Today we were in the local hardware store buying dock stuff.  The guy putting our solar electric system together came in, so we were all standing there talking docks.

The guy who owns the hardware store said they, too, are having problems with the Corps.  Theirs is the same, but opposite decision by the Corps.  They want to add a swim deck to their community dock.  That is another item that requires 100% approval.  All but one owner approves it and the dissenting owner will not be paying for anything, and the Corps will not give them approval.

Same situation as ours, different answer from the Corps.

What's going on?


----------



## JLB (Dec 10, 2005)

*What Would You Do?*

It's a nice day for a change so Jenny and I decided to stroll on down to check out our boat in the community dock and then do some work on our dock.

When we got to the community dock we saw that one of the bullies' bass boat was almost capsized.  He had done the same dumb thing he did last winter, strapped his boat cover to the lift frame.  When the lift goes down (from an air leak) it capsizes the boat.

These folks go to California for the winter and they were gone when that happened last year.  Jenny and I, the head bully, and another slipowner bailed the boat out then, and got it taken care of.  The guy knows we helped but never thanked us.

Since they came back last Spring they have done nothing but vilify us with hate, slander and defamation.  Not long ago his wife walked over to the road in front of our house, crossed herself, took out a piece of paper, read a prayer, sprinkled holy water on our front yard, crossed herself and went back home.  They are one of the couples planning and executing all the crap against us.

The boatowner bully saw us going to the dock, so they would all blame us if the boat sank.  They are leaving for California in four days.  It was clearly just a matter of hours, or minutes, before the boat sank.

What would you do?


----------



## chap7 (Dec 10, 2005)

Jim, If you allow their boat to capsize, I don't see any chance of you ever working it out with them.  If you tell them, there is still the slight possibility that you all can come to an understanding.  It's really depends on how you read the situation.

If it were me and I did not see ANY chance of reaching a compromise, I would let it sink.  But then again, I'm a vindictive son of a gun.


----------



## DebBrown (Dec 10, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> The boatowner bully saw us going to the dock, so they would all blame us if the boat sank.



Why don't you tell the bully that his friend's boat is about to sink and let the bullies save it.

I don't know what I would do.  If it involved a great deal of effort, I'd have a hard time going out of my way to help. OTOH, I'd have a hard time standing by while the boat sinks too.

It's time to move and stop torturing yourself!

Deb


----------



## teepeeca (Dec 10, 2005)

As long as the boatowner is still there, tell him that the boat is in danger of capsizing.  If he ignores you, or won't take the message, why not contact the local sheriff/law enfocement officer for your area, and inform them. (You might want to type/print-out a letter of your concerns, and have the law officer sign and acknowledge that you told him about the problem, and when you did.)

Tony


----------



## Kal (Dec 10, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> What would you do?


 
Man, you can't match up with their forces.  They've got gawd on their side.  All they need to do is have him snap his fingers and the boat will be levitated.  But you better watch out he'll snap his fingers and your timeshare will catch fire.


----------



## JLB (Dec 11, 2005)

Of course, I had already taken action before I posted here.  Sometimes I actually go ahead and do stuff before I ask what to do on TUG!    

Since capsizing was imminent, I had to in this case.

First we tried to call him on our cell phone. Jenny had deleted them from our address book and we just guessed at their number. It rang but no one answered.

I went to another who owns in the dock, one who has supported the bullies but not initiated stuff.  He is also the one that helped the Head Bully, Jenny and I when this happened last winter.

He saw me coming and met me at the door, all fake smile and greeting.  I said, "Not that I ever got any thanks from him last year and not that he deserves my help, but you better go tell your good friend that his boat is just about under water."  He said, "Again?"

The two of them went to the dock and took care of it.

About an hour later, as Jenny and I were working on our dock, the guy whose boat we just saved (again) drove to the ramp across the cove and watched for awhile.  When we got back to our house he was over at ex-cop bully's house and then those two went down to their dock, passing our house on the way.

And do you think he said _thanks_?


----------



## JLB (Dec 15, 2005)

*Update on the Dock Issue*

http://www.timeshareforums.com/showthread.php?p=16800#post16800


----------



## Patri (Dec 15, 2005)

Oh, I hope this has a happy ending.


----------



## JLB (Dec 15, 2005)

Patri said:
			
		

> Oh, I hope this has a happy ending.



Here's the ending:

We are all going to die.  

Some involved will go to Hell and two will go to heaven.    
- - - - - 

I just noticed that you are back in the work force after *XXX* years.  Are you sure that's the way you want to say that?   

- - - - -

Also, I have gone through some rough stretches in my life, but everything has always had a happy, or reasonably close to it, ending.

Thanks.


----------



## JLB (Dec 18, 2005)

Now Mark has a certified letter waiting for him from the guy who is speaking for the community dock, obviously to see if he got the last letter, the one asking for $7700 (after they told the Corps they would pay his share).


----------



## Eric in McLean (Dec 18, 2005)

Ever heard of adverse possession?  In some states, it may be as short as 7 years.


----------



## JLB (Dec 19, 2005)

Eric in McLean said:
			
		

> Ever heard of adverse possession?  In some states, it may be as short as 7 years.




Yup.  It's been discussed, here and elsewhere, but thanks.


----------



## JLB (Dec 26, 2005)

It's been two weeks since I sent an email to the Corps giving our side, and asking for them to put whatever agreement they have with the others in the dock in writing, so we know what's going on.

We haven't heard anything from anyone.

The last couple of days the old farts have been acting hateful again, so they must know something.

Maybe someone will clue us in someday.


----------



## JLB (Dec 27, 2005)

After posting last night we had an ugly incident with the head bully.  I had gone to see why someone was snooping around the yard of the house next-door to the head bully.  The 85-year-old man who lives there is away and he had asked me to keep my eye on it.  I called him and he asked me to go see what the people were up to.

When I did the head bully came rushing over, cussing me and telling the people to ignore me.  I put them on the phone with the owner of the house and then went back home.

This morning our street light was out.  The electric company came out to replace it and gave me the old one, saying it had been shot out with a BB gun.  I reported it and the deputy did not even bother to go talk to the head bully, who was out in the yard watching him.


----------



## JeffV (Dec 27, 2005)

Why should the deputy talk to anyone else, for all he knew you shot out the light yourself.


----------



## Kal (Dec 27, 2005)

Shooting out a street light with a BB gun is a major offense. The criminal who did it could be facing 5-10 years of hard labor. My gawd, what is this world coming to !! Better get homeland insecurity on it as it really smacks of a terrorist at work.  First the street light then something in a burning bag on your porch.  Careful, don't step on it!!


----------



## JLB (Dec 27, 2005)

JeffV said:
			
		

> Why should the deputy talk to anyone else, for all he knew you shot out the light yourself.




Duh,  some folks say the obvious!  

Of course that's what he would say, that I shot out my own light to get him in trouble.

That is exactly why he is not in jail, cuz he and the assistant bullies have been telling the sheriff that I am the one doing to them what they have been doing to us.

The guy with the electric company returned my call a little while ago.  Jenny told him the street light had been shot out and he said, "We know who did that, don't we?"

Another,_ Duh_!  Everyone knows exactly who has been doing what, but it doesn't seem to matter.


----------



## Kal (Dec 27, 2005)

JLB said:
			
		

> Everyone knows exactly who has been doing what, but it doesn't seem to matter.


 
Ahhhh, by this confession it sounds like they know YOU did it!!


----------



## Topeka Tom (Dec 27, 2005)

*Helpful Comment*

The power company guy probably was the same guy who had to black out part of Jim's yard light because it was shining in the old geezer's window 300 yards (or was it feet?) away.  Everybody should know that is not possible, so even the power company is aware of what is going on.

I thought I would explain the situation, because it is kind of complex if you are just trolling.


----------



## JLB (Dec 28, 2005)

Topeka Tom said:
			
		

> The power company guy probably was the same guy who had to black out part of Jim's yard light because it was shining in the old geezer's window 300 yards (or was it feet?) away.  Everybody should know that is not possible, so even the power company is aware of what is going on.
> 
> I thought I would explain the situation, because it is kind of complex if you are just trolling.




Thanks, Tom.  

You are right that just the casual observer gets a very distorted view of the situation.  Those who have visited us have a better grasp of how really convoluted it is.

Except for the fact that I had to try to explain 8 years worth of crap to a new person for the hundredth time and I know it is not possible to do that properly, we had a very interesting meeting with the attorney today.

We have a new temporary game plan.  Do nothing.

It is his opinion that all the Corps has done is washed their hands of it.  They did not give the others in our dock any powers to do anything they didn't have before.  And, they didn't have any powers to do anything before.

Those who have taken over the dock are attempting to conduct business over a piece of property with ten equal shares.  Absent the legal framework of an Association, they still need the approval of all ten owners to do anything with it.  They have no power to bill us, force us into a legal contract without our cooperation, or sue us. 

But, until they make that realization, there's nothing they can do or we can do to bring about a compromise.

Like I said Thanksgiving Day, we are ready to put this behind us any time they are.  

He suggested that we attempt to begin a dialogue with the least offensive of the three bullies, which we will do, maybe, when we return from Florida.


----------



## JLB (Jan 22, 2006)

We got back from 3 weeks in Florida yesterday.

The street light is out again.

In addition, the bulb in our outside security light, on our house, had been unscrewed from the socket.  To do that someone would have had to come onto our property and put up a ladder to get to it.

It's hard to believe that those doing this are 70-ish, rather than adolescent.

We had planned on making an effort to start the reconciliation process when we got back from vacation.  Now we are faced with calling the electric company, and probably the sheriff.

Oh well, it was nice to get away, to the real world, and spend time with folks who don't have the emotional problems a couple of our neighbors have.


----------



## resp20 (Jan 22, 2006)

*Catch em at it*

Jim, Have you ever looked into buying some security cameras? There are some very very small one's out there and you could record the areas that these things happen and build a nice case against them. Bill


----------



## JLB (Jan 22, 2006)

Hey, c'mon down here and be a deputy.    

That's what they all say.  

My answer is always the same, that we have already turned over to the Chief Deputy, the Sheriff, and the prosecutor, all the evidence they would need to prosecute.  Audio recordings, photos, and admissions of guilt from the perps.

However, Jenny said it would be nice that if the electric company will replace the bulb again that we could get a video of it being shot out, and it would have been nice to have gotten the OF on video climbing on the ladder against our house to unscrew our light bulb.

But, in the scheme of things I don't believe those are things the Prosecutor would be interested in.  He likes murders, rapes (normally involving family members) meth labs, and ladies who set their boyfriends on fire.    

The Prosecutor simply chooses to look the other way.  More evidence will likely not help.  he told me this is clearly just a matter of two neighbors who can;t get along.  At one point I believe that the amazing accumulation of little things would turn against the OF.  But not any more.  The OF publicly and openly says he can do anything he wants and no one can do anything about it.  He even tells the deputies that.  Then he calls them liars when they challenge him.  That's all in their reports.

I guess one of the benefits of senility, a large amount of beer consumption, and getting by with being a bully all your life, is that you do feel omnipotent.

I have talked to the sheriff about this guy and he claims to have no idea who he is.  But the other Old Fart perp is an ex-cop, and we know he has gone to the Sheriff on his own, the Blue Line.

All that being said, while in Florida we saw what has to be the smallest mini-camcorder made, an Audiovox DC400.  I googled it when we got home yesterday, found some decent reviews on epinions and another site, and a price that beat QVC's.  Then, after discovering the situation with the lights, we ordered one.

Our great aunt and Uncle were out for dinner tonight.  He's 80 and said I made my mistake 7 years ago when I let our neighbor get away with chewing my --- out for a minor matter.  He says I shoulda beat the crap out of him then and had this over with.     




			
				resp20 said:
			
		

> Jim, Have you ever looked into buying some security cameras? There are some very very small one's out there and you could record the areas that these things happen and build a nice case against them. Bill


----------



## Kal (Jan 22, 2006)

Always wondered what it would be like living' in PARADISE !


----------



## JLB (Jan 22, 2006)

Glad to see you're still around.


----------



## Kal (Jan 23, 2006)

Hey, I'm heading for Key West in 2 weeks.  Will be looking for the trail of empty beer mugs you left around town!  Did you catch Mike McCloud at Schooner Wharf Bar???  Or better yet, see the "ladies" at 801 Bourbon Street???


----------



## grest (Jan 23, 2006)

How can you and Jenny stand this stressful situation day in and day out?  You must really love your home!  Hoping this can get resolved so you can have some peace...
Connie


----------



## JLB (Feb 19, 2006)

The geriatric delinquency continues.

In response to the vandalism, the electric company replaced the street light with one that is not shaded toward the end of the road.  They had shaded the light to appease the Head Geriatric Delinquent.  They said that as long as we are trying to apprehend the person(s) responsible for the damage, then they will continue to service the light.  The sheriff's deputy said the same thing.  Both groups know they have been lied to and used.

I sense that, one-by-one, the geriatric delinquents will burn their bridges.  Time is the best friend of the truth.

We have 24 hour surveillance now, and the overt stuff has stopped.  They always seem to know when they are pushing things a bit too far.  They know everything they have done is now a matter of public record.  It is not just two neighbors who cannot get along~~~it involves many others, including the electric company, the County Commission, the Sheriff and the US Army Corps of Engineers.

We replaced the exterior security light at the rear of our house with a dusk-to-dawn light, 15 feet higher in the air.  Of course, it lights the entire area back there where inappropriate activity has been taking place.

The geriatric delinquents continue to run around and meet, plan and scheme against us.  Rather than come and talk to us, they continue to talk to shut us out.  How will that ever resolve anything?

Feb. 1 was the deadline for everyone to pay 1/3 of the cost of rebuilding the dock.  Of course we did not pay.  But we paid the annual maintenance fee, with a qualified endorsement that it is payment in full of all of our dock obligation.  They cashed it.

We also sent a letter with it stating that we were paying the maintenance fee because it is the right thing to do, something we approve of, and something we have done for nine years.  Our letter also said that nothing else has changed.  We still have not given pur permission to anyone to conduct business on our behalf or to do anything with our private property against our wishes.  

For those who have asked why we endured this, why we don't just turn tail and run, we have a nearby school superintendent who was fired for refusing to remove his Bible, cross and ten commandments from his office.  I was listening to him on TV this morning.

At that final meeting with the school board, the attorney for the district asked him why he refused, that everyone wanted him to stay and continue doing the good he was doing.  Why would he disobey a court order?  He said he could not obey an order that violated God's laws.  He said that in the future the kids who looked up to him would be faced with decisions of right v. wrong.  If he capitulated now then everything he taught them is just words.

He said that you have to stand for what is right, even if it means dire personal consequences and even if you have to stand alone.

If someone has to resort to threats (of murder even), harassment, intimidation, extortion, assault, profanity, deceit, bearing false witness against a neighbor, gunplay and vandalism to get what they want, then what they want surely must not be right.


----------



## boyblue (Feb 19, 2006)

JLB,
I've just now read this entire thread and a couple things amaze me.

One is how this thread could have gone 32 posts before someone asked what ROF's stood for.

The other thing is that in 130 posts no one has admonished you for being equally culpable.  As long as we're labeling JLB (I mean this in the nicest way possible - as a matter of fact I don’t even want to post this but feel I must) By your own account and at the very least you are a tattletale.  Please allow me to explain.

Granted your neighbors could have handled your rejection to their plan much much better.  There is no excuse for criminal behavior.  They were dead wrong.  Where I have to give you wrong is that in reacting to their reactions.  You have become voiceless.  It may have been one too many emails or one too many calls to the police.  For all of the authorities to react to your reports the same way has nothing to do with the bully and everything to do with you. 

I don’t know if I’m gonna post this comment yet but that is what is in my hart regarding your ordeal.

If you aren’t too PO’d there is more:

I sense that you do not respect the bully.  It is difficult if not impossible to make peace with someone you don’t respect.  I figure he senses that and that might be your underlying problem.  I suggest you open the line of communication through a mutual friend, direct would be even better.

I mean no ill will J


----------



## Mosca (Feb 19, 2006)

JLB said:
			
		

> For those who have asked why we endured this, why we don't just turn tail and run, we have a nearby school superintendent who was fired for refusing to remove his Bible, cross and ten commandments from his office.  I was listening to him on TV this morning.
> 
> At that final meeting with the school board, the attorney for the district asked him why he refused, that everyone wanted him to stay and continue doing the good he was doing.  Why would he disobey a court order?  He said he could not obey an order that violated God's laws.  He said that in the future the kids who looked up to him would be faced with decisions of right v. wrong.  If he capitulated now then everything he taught them is just words.
> 
> He said that you have to stand for what is right, even if it means dire personal consequences and even if you have to stand alone.




OK; what if he was wrong? Putting religious law above secular law is the very thing that we chastise Muslims for doing. Being 100% certain that you are right isn't the same as being right. 

Is it possible that you have put yourself in a position where you CAN'T compromise? I'm not saying that you've done that, I'm saying look within and answer the question to yourself, and see what answer you get.

Tom


----------



## JLB (Feb 19, 2006)

The bullying has gone on for 17 years.  No one knows about it when they buy from a victim who is running away.  Everyone buys with the idea that they have found their paradise at the lake.  Of the ten houses on our point, seven have changed ownership in the eight years we have been here.  Including us there are two who are planning on selling.

Of the ten slips in the community dock, nine have changed ownership since we have been here.

The eight years we have been here have been a very uneasy coexistence and a balance of power has kept the neighborhood tolerable.  In the last two years things have happened to upset that balance.  I have stepped in and gotten the road done, which the head bully previously used to control all of his neighbors, while at the same time some of those who replaced those who have left are of the same ideology as the head bully.  They also believe they are entitled to whatever they want regardless of what they have to do to get it.  They are simply used to getting their way and not having anyone question the things they do.

The head bully ran the road for 15 years, and never got it turned over to the County.  I did that and it just burns hims up every time the County snowplow or brushhogs comes down it. I wish I could play for you the profane, late-night phone calls I got from him right at the beginning of my involvement in the road, until he realized that the 20-plus other owners all wanted it turned over to the County.

As it turns out I made our presentation to the Commission in the last meeting we could have.  In the morning session they had passed a new road adoption policy which disqualifies us.  It was lacking one signature when I made our presentation in the afternoon.

Yes, Jenny and I *are the cause of the problem in the neighborhood*.  That is because we did not acqiesce, or move, as the others have.  The bully has never had to deal with that situation.  The sheriff has never known about his conduct because all the others chose to leave.

Our attorney, and many others whose advice I sought, say just to ignore them.  They have no legal right to rule over our private property.  They cannot without our permission.  We cannot give that unless they talk to us.  They haven't done that since August, 2004. Our attorn(ies) have said not to try to engage them in an endless email debate.  They are not ready to resolve the matter.  Except for the one I sent recently, I have not bothered them with any of my rhetoric since early last summer.

I am fully aware that they do not want to hear from me about anything, and I am obliging them.

Jenny and I have wanted to sit down and hammer out a compromise for more than a year, the Corps told them to get together with us and work things out last April, but they have decided they do not want to do that.  The head bully has told the others, "Let me take care of this," because he always has in the past.

The leader of a project can be a uniter or a divider.  The leader of this project has decided not the deal at all with the one party he needs to deal with.  Why should he spend all his time with the others?  They already agree with his position.  

When I did the road, I dealt with 26 property owners, each with their own agenda.  Not everyone saw things my way, so I worked things out with each  of them, including those who are now giving us a hard time.  I never demanded that anyone see things my way and compromised and spent whatever time was needed with each of the owners to gain their support.

All we can do is just let them faunch at the bit.  Get our own dock, move out of theirs, build a new house down the road, and wind up better off than we would have had this not happened.  That is what we are doing.

So, I am torn between just ignoring them, until they are ready, or force myself upon them by suggesting we work things out.  Our attorney suggested that we attempt to start the healing process.  We were going to do that when we got back from Florida Jan. 21.  But when we got home the streetlight had been shot out and our house had been vandalized.

So, *what would you do?*  Ask the criminals if they want to sit down and talk?

The reporting I did to the sheriff was at the request of the sheriff, chief deputy and county prosecutor.  I had approached them looking for a neighborhood mediation program, not a tattletale program.  In a meeting last May 31, the Prosecutor told me to document everything that happens and communicate it to the Chief Deputy.  He said he wanted to build a case based on a pattern of behavior rather than a specific occurrence.  Yes, that became a lot of emails, three or four a week because that's how many incidences there were.

The sheriff requested an arrest warrant at one point last summer, at which time the geriatric delinquent who is an ex-cop came up with the idea of all of them telling the sheriff that I am the one doing to them what they have been doing to us.

So the Prosecutor wrote it off as neighbors who can't get along.  We fully comprehend what happened, and know of no better way we could have proceeded.  We have made sure that neither us nor our guests resorted to the same tactics.  We have just taken the abuse and reported it. 

Who could have figured that they would rely on such a warped plan?  It is devilish, at best, especially for such fine upstanding Christian people, full of faulty logic and the longer this goes on the more others will see that.  

What would they gain if they succeeded with that plan?  Surely not our approval of their dock plan.

Every time I see our Commissioner he just shrugs his shoulders and says, "Things any better?"

Actually, the only way in which the authorities have acted in the same way is that they all have reacted in a way in which they think they don't to have to deal with it.  They have taken what appeared to them to be the easy way out, but that has not resolved the problem.  As things continue, one by one they will see the truth of what is going on, as has the Electric Company.  One by one the deputies who have to come out, and catch the bullies in their lies, begin to see the truth of the situation.

Like I said, time is the best friend of the truth.

I should remember not to share our problems with others.  Some don't care and the rest are glad you have them.    

What was the question again?


----------



## shagnut (Feb 19, 2006)

You want me to come up there and straighten those old farts out?    They want know what hit them!!  shaggy


----------



## Htoo0 (Feb 20, 2006)

^^ I've thought the same thing.  Shouldn't take that much to make them change their thinking.  Especially when they have no idea who they're dealing with.


----------



## JLB (Feb 20, 2006)

A couple of TUG parties on Bluebird Point might make them appreciate only having to deal with us!!!    

I'm all for it.  Bring your pickup trucks and camping trailers and you can park at the end of the road!

They do think about the consequences of their actions.  We and our guests are well behaved.  Whoever replaces us in our house and the community dock could be a lot worse.


----------



## JLB (Feb 20, 2006)

This morning we received an email from the retired cop, who is in charge of the rebuilding project.  It was to everyone in the dock.  It said the first installments were received from all except for one slipowner, the second installment is now due, and things are progressing on the dock.

I called our attorney to see how to respond.  He said to send an email/letter to the head guy at the Corps office here, with copies going to everyone else, to document what we have been told, and not told, and ask the Corps again to put it writing what is going on.  I've already asked three times.

This effort is for use later on.

Last week I was on another neighbor's dock, talking to him, when the ex-cop showed up.  He didn't speak to me.


----------



## JLB (Feb 20, 2006)

boyblue said:
			
		

> JLB,
> 
> It may have been one too many emails or one too many calls to the police.  For all of the authorities to react to your reports the same way has nothing to do with the bully and everything to do with you.
> 
> I mean no ill will J




Sometimes things have to lay there awhile, in the brain I mean.

My reaction to this is that *either I really am a blithering idiot, really am sick in the head, as one of the geriatric delinquent's wife announced 20 times in 30 minutes in a well-rehearsed and well-coached speech last Aug. 17, and I have just made all this up for some deranged reason, or it really has happened.  * 
One or the other.  

The same goes for all of those who have left to get away from it.

I believe that is the fault in their logic that will eventually do them in.

On the other hand, if they are going to go ahead and build the dock without our approval, and they are going to pay our share, and they are not going to harass and intimidate us any more, and they are not going to prevent us from using the dock, *then why not just say that?*

Then it would be all over.
- - - - - -
BTW, in case you missed this fine point, we offered to pay $6000 before the   ---- hit the fan.  Ex cop said no, no way, blankety-blank, blankety-blankenty-blankety blank blank blank.  He wanted all of it, the other $818.70, too.  If the case really is that they are going to pay our share, he has cost himself and the others in the dock $16,200, the total they are now paying extra.

The longer they go without drawing this to a conclusion, the more expensive it will get for them.

That's why I say every action has a consequence and the person taking the action has to take responsibility for it.

The week before last I was over talking to our preferred dockbuilder, the oldest and most respected one on the lake.  He said he would still build a new dock like they want for almost $20,000 less than they are paying another builder.  He had a 20-slip dock under construction for $110,000 ($5500 per slip) and our neighbors have agreed to pay $77000 for a 10-slip dock, obviously $7700 per slip.

Whenever I tell anyone that knows docks they are paying $7700 per slip, their mouth just falls open, and they want to know if it is being made out of gold.

If we have no right to stop their foolishness, they should have no right to force us to be involved in it.


----------



## JLB (Feb 20, 2006)

If anyone would like to pass judgement, I can email you the transcript of the first confrontation that the Head Bully had with us, back when this all started, in front of our guests, when he announced what he and the other two geriatric delinquents were going to do to us.


----------



## JLB (Feb 21, 2006)

I woke up very early this morning.  While I was sleeping my brain told me what they are up to, why no one will tell what is going on.

Strange how that works, when you go to sleep with a problem and your brain keeps working on it involuntarily.


----------



## JLB (Feb 22, 2006)

Yesterday's revelation and the email our attorney suggested I send struck a responsive cord.  Those in our dock read it 9 minutes after I sent it and the head of the Corps likewise responded.

That led to a lengthy phone conversation with the head of the Corps.  During it he realized they have given us a lot of misleading information.  Corps/dock/lake/boat details that wouldn't have much meaning unless you were familiar with them.  We reached a verbal understanding as what we and they are doing to resolve the problems on our shoreline.

He said he is going to put it all in writing and send it to me.  For now that's all we were asking.  Once they commit themselves in writing we can go from there.

So, it appears the dialogue has begun.  It does not appear that we will have to have one with those who do not want one, the others in the community dock.

I was at the County Recorder's office this morning and the Corps, recording slip Bills of Sale, dock documents, etc., came up.  I mentioned our problems and they said, "You ought to sit here!"
- - - - - -
An email from the retired cop, the dock rebuilding project leader, just arrived.  The dialogue has begun.


----------

