# Marriott DC 3 years old. What do you think?



## FractionalTraveler (Jun 9, 2013)

In 10 days, MVCI Destination Club will be 3 years old.

What have we learned?  What have we experienced?

For us, we now use our most treasured resorts in our portfolio the same as always.  We reserve and occupy as usual.  Haven't really experienced any changes or issues here.

For the other properties in our family's vacation bank we have chosen to exchange for DC points each of the last 3 years.  It has been working pretty well for short 2-3 night escapes and special times when we wanted to go where we don't own and secure a view or unit type we have never owned.

WE have no real need for II usage option anymore since DC was introduced.  Maybe in the future we will come back to that option.

The DC has enabled us to experience new adventures we never thought we would do.  Ritz Carlton DC Stays (Vail, Jupiter, SF), NY Fashion Week, a Driving Experience, and Golf to name a few.

Despite struggling through the first year without a working website which seemed to take forever to fix, today it’s a little bit better but is a work in progress for sure. It can be frustrating to use at times.

The VAC stock has been unbelievable to-date so that has been one of the big bright spots for us.

MF have gone up for us in the Trust as well as our weeks based assets for sure but not to an unreasonable level so far. 

I predicted at the outset that II availability and quality would diminish as a result.  Haven't really seen that yet but give it another 2-3 years and maybe a bigger impact will be felt by those who choose this option.

We purchased Trust points from the beginning and use them each year.  Funny, the best feature of owning trust points is the ability to search on the website for other Tuggers and perform experiments with inventory.

As the point costs have gone up, we are sure glad we purchased our legacy units years back and Trust points at introduction.  It’s just way too expensive to replace our portfolio with Trust points at today's costs!  The Millennials are in bad shape.

Overall, we have been satisfied with the Marriott Program and its wide array of usage options offered. Best of all, the experiences created over the last 14 years of ownership have been great.


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## MALC9990 (Jun 9, 2013)

For owners in Europe it is still only the end of year one in the DC so still perhaps early days.

For myself we enrolled on day 2 in Europe and as soon as we could we exchanged 3 of our 2013 weeks for DC points. It will be the end of 2013 before I can say for sure how we feel since most of the points usage will be for a trip to Crystal Shores and Frenchman's Cove in late Oct and early Nov. However we did use points to add 2 nights to an II exchange to Manor Club in May.

Our usage has not changed much either. We still say at our favourite home resort in Son Antem in June of course our weeks at Phuket are still outside the DC but are enrolled in the Asia Pacific points system. We await some action on including that system and our weeks into the DC to give us the fully inclusive system we would like to see.

Our II usage has declined a little but will do so more when a Asia Pacific and our Phuket weeks can be joined into the DC. The way we use II has definitely changed since the DC came to Europe. We used to deposit first early and Request 18 months out and get our exchanges at between 12 and 11 months out. Now I just look online for what might be available. I have been spoiled by the immediate availability shown in the DC at 13 months out.


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## KathyPet (Jun 9, 2013)

So-so
We have used DC points to add 3 nights to our reserved week at St. Kitts in 2012 and just added a night to our week's stay on HH in September but were very disapointed in finding no availability to use DC points at FC in Jan or Feb 2014 although we were trying rather late  at the 8/9 month mark.  Thank heavens we can still go to our SKB home resort and I have a week reserved there.

We will probably use points in 2014 for a fall week at Ocean Watch since we have to use them by the end of 2014.  I will request as far in advance as I can for that usage.

I am just wondering how people who only have points to use are faring.  At least I have a fallback whereas they have no home resort to go to.


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## puckmanfl (Jun 9, 2013)

good afternoon...

On my way home from Atlantis.... Used my DC points to broker with sb 3213.  I am a happy camper.  I forked over $695, got 800 DC points (wash) and now I can do short stays, long stays, cancel willy nilly.  Saved a ton in II exchange fees and Marriott cancellation fees.  Using the Sun-Thurs, to get some killer deals on the ski trips, stayed at RC Vail... you all know the rest..

Best news..this is an ADDED option to my previous uses.  I am ver close to empty nesting.  At that point it will probably by a reversal to the RP plan of using lockoffs to hunt for upgraes in shoulder season, Spain in fall etc...

Kathy hit the nail, right on!!! Would love to hear from someone who has 4-5K pure Trust points only.  Don't think we have a Pure Trust player on this board!!!  Pretty remarkable, you would think after 3 years a Pure Trust player would have found us!!!


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## rpgriego (Jun 9, 2013)

*THe DClub program TOTALLY ROCKS!*

I have to admit I ONLY joined the DClub program to gain MRPs access for my DSVI week bought cheaply on eBay. I willingly paid the maximum membership of $1,695 (since $695 was refunded to me and I'm sure everyone else when purchasing DClub points). 

That said, I'm OCD regarding maximizing my timeshares and each and every reward program I join. Thus, I immediately set about comparing and contrasting the DClubs benefits. At launch, everyone complained about skimming (I believe that's the term they used), but I didn't see it when you could still secure a week at your home resort during your use period. So NO change there. The BEST benefit to me... Sunday through Thrusday stays AND the ability to secure them immediately! Suddenly, my Ko Olina annual 5,925 DClub points gave me 9 or 10 nights (or more when utilizing the Last Minute Reservation feature my sales guy told me about) in a two bedroom ocean view. Speaking of view the DClub lets you select that! Another benefit is the ease of use when banking and/or borrowing points (used this feature to secure THREE ocean view two-bedrooms at Ko Olina for this past New Years Eve). The various fee savings have to be another hard-dollar benefit of the DClub. For me, I'm saving the following fees: annual lock-off of DSVI, annual II membership fee, two II trades (goal:up-trade) minimum per year with every other year adding an II trade using my three bedroom (goal: three bedroom in Hawaii), MRP election every other year (goal: FIRST CLASS tickets and Category 9 European hotel seven night stays).

I was surprised at the following benefit, when reviewing cruises on the MVC webpage I was shocked to find my DClub points (legacy and trust) actually could save me around $1,000. Now that said, I assign a cost value to the points (combined MFees divided by total points) to make sure my favorite cruise discounter can't beat the MVC offer.

For those reading this saying, he conveniently left out his MVC buy-in costs. A very valid observation. I look to the MRProgram's Travel Packages for that... what is the value of 10 FIRST CLASS tickets to London (x2), Paris (x2), Rome (x4)? Honestly, you have to add Category 9 seven night hotel stays in those locations to the equation. Here's a MRProgram factoid... Because of my utilization of the MRProgram's Travel Packages --I deposited the maximum miles to my AAdvantage account to secure the FC tickets-- the MRProgram got me AAdvantage LIFETIME GOLD status!

I purchased 1,000 DClub points ONLY for Premiere PLUS status. Reference above my desire for Sunday through Thursday stays. 

Suggested improvements to the Premiere PLUS level:
II exchange fee waived when adding resorts outside the Marriott system
Marriott Rewards Platinum Elite status
33% discount for last minute reservations
50% off owner rental discounts
100% MRPoints every year option
December 31 deadline to roll points into the next year (done as a courtesy if the owner forgets)
Never Lose Your Use Year -- if an owner forgot to use his/her use week(s) upon contacting MVC their weeks could be converted to the assigned MRP value (I feel the prevailing MRP Election fee would be reasonable considering its resolving the owners error and adding a restriction of once every five years)

The cost to MVW would not be that high for my suggested changes, but IMHO the added/increased benefits just may help sell DClub points to those within 1,000; 1,500; 2,000 or 2,500 points of the Premiere PLUS level.

I'm even open to a Premiere ULTRA level being introduced.

Don't forget the access to the Ritz Carlton Residence Club. Stayed at their SF property and it came close to the FS Residence Clubs in luxury, but beat the FSRC on location!


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## puckmanfl (Jun 9, 2013)

good afternoon..

RP...you and I talk the same lingo...

I spent 80K retail for my 5 weeks (actually 3.5 average  2 ey, 3 eoy ) with EOYs... 14K dc points.  I know I should have purchased resale, but becuase of developed goodies I have snagged over 3,000,000 MR points , getting close to 4,000,000 over the past 9 years.  Have used the packages for FC Hawaii..and plan to do so again in 2015.  I am 50 nites from LIFETIME platinum.  Have snagged tons of upgrades with the Plat elite...


I am obsessed with maximizing this..just to squelsh, the "naysayers".  

I was doing well pre DC, but now I am really rocking with DC

This week DW gave me grief for being on "that website" again, then I reminded her about the bonus Hawaii unit from gregT and The atlantis trade..with sb.  Oops, never mind, carry on she said"


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## dioxide45 (Jun 9, 2013)

--_Deleted---


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## dioxide45 (Jun 9, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> I purchased 1,000 DClub points ONLY for Premiere PLUS status. Reference above my desire for Sunday through Thursday stays.
> 
> Suggested improvements to the Premiere PLUS level:
> II exchange fee waived when adding resorts outside the Marriott system
> ...



There is already a 20% discount. It seems that MVCI offers other select discounts, like the recent one for select Florida proeprties where they offered 40%.



> 50% off owner rental discounts



There is already a 45% discount when using your MR Visa. Pretty close to 50%.



> 100% MRPoints every year option



I think it is 75% right now but only applies to DC points.



> December 31 deadline to roll points into the next year (done as a courtesy if the owner forgets)
> Never Lose Your Use Year -- if an owner forgot to use his/her use week(s) upon contacting MVC their weeks could be converted to the assigned MRP value (I feel the prevailing MRP Election fee would be reasonable considering its resolving the owners error and adding a restriction of once every five years)


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## rpgriego (Jun 9, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> There is already a 20% discount. It seems that MVCI offers other select discounts, like the recent one for select Florida proeprties where they offered 40%.
> 
> 
> 
> There is already a 45% discount when using your MR Visa. Pretty close to 50%.



Regarding my Premiere PLUS suggested enhancements:
ME: nothing else needed to utilize the benefit
YOU SHOW: limited time offer OR you need to use this in addition to

For the amount of $money$ Platinum PLUS members have laid out, their benefits should NOT come with 'fine print'.


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## rgrisard (Jun 9, 2013)

Help me understand why someone like me would join the club?  I own a gold week @ FC.   I only get 2,950 points I believe and i've been to places like like Hawaii x 2 in April, Aruba in March, OceanWatch in June.   The only way I can do that is through Interval unless I want to save two-three years worth of points.    

I probably go to FC every three years now but once the kids are older probably go 2 out of 3 years as we love it.    So I don't save enough on the exchange fees.  I buy II membership for 5 years at cost of 4.

Am I missing something obvious by not joining?   Looks like i'm better off not in the club, correct?


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## dioxide45 (Jun 9, 2013)

Owning a single non-lockoff week makes it tough to make enrolling worth while. You wont' save a lot if anything in a la carte fees. The points you are given wouldn't be sufficient to get the same trades you are currently getting in II.


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## NightSkyTraveler (Jun 9, 2013)

> Kathy hit the nail, right on!!! Would love to hear from someone who has 4-5K pure Trust points only.  Don't think we have a Pure Trust player on this board!!!  Pretty remarkable, you would think after 3 years a Pure Trust player would have found us!!!



We are a pure trust points owner.  In July of 2010, we bought 2250 points in Kauai.  Had no intention of buying a timeshare, but liked the flexibility of the points.  Granted, we were told you could do everything over the Internet, which proved to be wrong until more recently.

We did go to Frenchmans Cove the following summer, though Marriott screwed up our points and used our bonus points...so we had to find something to use the rest on. We sent my parents to crystal shores for my mothers 60th birthday...I got to go and surprise my mother for the weekend while.  Loved that place.

We went to Grand Vista just after New Years in 2012 during winter break.  Took our daughters to Disney for the first time.  While there bought an encore package as we wanted to bring my inlaws with us next time...and thought about buying more points.  

During that time, ended up buying 2000 points on eBay.  So we booked a Xmas vacation in hilton head.  Stayed 6 nights at grande ocean.  Had a great time.  Then learned about TUG.  A little late, but still great to know about. 

Went to Harbour lake for Easter. Met with our GV rep, she did notmeven notice we got more points...especially through resale.  We had no intention of buying more at this point, but wanted to hear from her how to maximize our points. Mostly a push for Premier.

We have Breckenridge booked for next month and a return trip to hilton head for winter break again.  We really liked it down there.  THis time staying at surfwatch, so that we can experience a new place.

2014,  my wife wants to bank points for a return trip in 2015 to Kauai, but I would rather use them and rent any points needed from GregT's website for that.

Overall, we have learned a lot from the experience, and are satisfied with our points.  We do travel at off times to places, so it works for us.  But we are looking forward Next month to finally go without family...just the four of us!


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## rpgriego (Jun 9, 2013)

rgrisard said:


> Help me understand why someone like me would join the club?  I own a gold week @ FC.   I only get 2,950 points I believe and i've been to places like like Hawaii x 2 in April, Aruba in March, OceanWatch in June.   The only way I can do that is through Interval unless I want to save two-three years worth of points.
> 
> I probably go to FC every three years now but once the kids are older probably go 2 out of 3 years as we love it.    So I don't save enough on the exchange fees.  I buy II membership for 5 years at cost of 4.
> 
> Am I missing something obvious by not joining?   Looks like i'm better off not in the club, correct?



I don't mean to type such a short response, but the Destination Club doesn't offer you any real advantages. That said, keep up the GREAT work maximizing your II trades.


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## Steve A (Jun 10, 2013)

I own four weeks. I like the option of not paying II for reservations. Besides the initial cost of reserving four weeks, I have frequently cancelled and re-booked at no charge. I have taken advantage of DC points only once using the 800 points plus a week at the Grand Chateau for 10 nights at the Kauai Beach Club in January.


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## ilene13 (Jun 10, 2013)

Honestly we only enrolled for future flexibility.  We still own Royal Resort weeks so we must keep a separate II account.  We own no lockoffs and we never trade our Marriott weeks, thus no savings.  We only get 2950 points for each of our Aruba Ocean Club platinum weeks.  
   Now, on the other hand we used our bonus points plus some that I purchased from other owners to extend our Mexican spring break by staying at the JW Marriott.  We are planning an extended trip to Spain for 2014.  If all works out I will be using DC points for our time in Costa del Sol.  We are premier plus because in addition to Aruba we own a 3 bedroom platinum unit at Surfwatch.
  Hopefully my husband will retire in the next year or so and we can move to Florida.  Where he can work, as he is licensed there to practice medicine there and then we can truly test the flexibility of the program.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 10, 2013)

FractionalTraveler said:


> In 10 days, MVCI Destination Club will be 3 years old.
> 
> What have we learned?  What have we experienced?
> 
> .



I've learned that flexibility can't be overstated as a benefit

When we joined, the intention was to use the DC to be relieved of the ala carte fees. We had always locked off our units and typically made 3 exchanges.

The reality is,due to life changes, our Grand Chateua unit has been converted to DC points through 2015 and we've begun using the entire 3 bedroom Ocean Pointe unit rather than locking it off. 

We've had very little problems getting the DC points reservations we've wanted. The one exception being we could only get a 1 bedroom Canton Villas unit in February instead of the 2 bedroom unit we'd have preferred. 

I suppose one change is that I have been more prone to looking at 1 bedroom reservations in order to stretch our points. I've also considered 5 night vacations to save vacation time as well as stretch our points. 

Most of our changes have been more due to life changes than the overwhelming,ng value of the DC. However, the flexibility of the DC has been the most valuable part since joining.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 10, 2013)

I feel the same as most of you - the DC's flexibility is its most valuable feature.  So far we haven't done as much with DC Points as the true experts here but the value for us will be down the road when we move to the Hilton Head area and start looking to exchange out of our home resorts for shorter trips on a more regular basis.  One aspect we have taken advantage of is the 45% DC/VISA discounts for cash stays - we've been very lucky with availability for quite a few short stays.

The only thing I disagree with in the thread is rpgriego's, _"For the amount of $money$ Platinum PLUS members have laid out, their benefits should NOT come with 'fine print'."_  For one thing, with an active Weeks external market in play for years prior to the DC inception, it's not necessarily true that Premier Plus DC Members have laid out a more substantial amount of money for their ownership compared to Premier or Standard Members.  Plus, Marriott has always measured status based on the intervals (Weeks and DC Points) owned, not based on the financial outlays of individual owners.

But more importantly, I think it's folly to wish for less 'fine print' in any aspect of ownership.  The 'fine print' protects us as much as it benefits Marriott, inasmuch as it forces Marriott to comply with audit qualifications related to inventory.  Without those compliance qualifications Marriott could play fast and loose (some might say, "fastER and loosER") with inventory, and if they could do that, I'm fairly certain they'd do it to their advantage and not to ours.  IMO it's a case of, "be careful what you wish for."


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## windje2000 (Jun 10, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> snip . . .
> 
> Don't think we have a Pure Trust player on this board!!!  Pretty remarkable, you would think after 3 years a Pure Trust player would have found us!!!







NightSkyTraveler said:


> We are a pure trust points owner.  In July of 2010, we bought 2250 points in Kauai.  . . .
> 
> snip . . .
> 
> During that time, ended up buying 2000 points on eBay.  So we booked a Xmas vacation in hilton head.  Stayed 6 nights at grande ocean.  Had a great time.  Then learned about TUG.  A little late, but still great to know about.



puck - I think NightSkyTraveler is the pure trust owner that found TUG.


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## gblotter (Jun 10, 2013)

I had some very negative reactions when the DC program was first announced.  I felt quite betrayed and was shocked that Marriott would treat its most loyal customers like this.  My position has since "evolved".

Ultimately I decided to enroll before the deadline.  I have two developer weeks enrolled for Premier status, and I usually convert those two weeks to DC points.  During the economic recession, I took advantage of the plummeting timeshare prices to purchase three additional weeks on the resale market at ridiculously low prices.  Because those three weeks are not qualified for DC enrollment, I use them to reserve 7-night stays in the traditional fashion.

I have typically used DC points for multiple 5-night weeknight stays in 1BR units instead of a single 7-night stay in a 2BR unit.  I find that approach significantly extends the value of my investment and provides more flexibility.

I have always been able to get the reservations I want using DC points (but I always reserve early).  From my experience, the whole "two bucket" thing is complete nonsense.  From a practical point of view, Marriott seems to be making the different pools of inventory function as one through the exchange company.  Hopefully that will continue to be the case.


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## GregT (Jun 10, 2013)

FT,

Thanks for the question -- and its been interesting to follow the responses.  My views:

Positive:

- The ability to transfer points between owners is terrific -- and is the primary reason I joined
- Flexibility is great and is new to some Marriott owners (but pretty standard for other systems)
- Flexibility is tremendous if you are fortunate enough to be Premier Plus
- The ability to access Ritz Carlton properties is significant
- The spin-off of VAC is good for owners.  It was a concern that they would sell (such as to Wyndham )
- The confusion regarding Trust and Legacy Point buckets was a Negative, but the blurring of the lines is now a Positive (if reliable access continues and is not constricted).
- The online system is a good introductory system -- and better than other, more mature systems.

Negative:

- Skimming, while no longer controversial, remains expensive as a hidden tax. My two enrolled weeks would be skimmed 3,350 points if I redeemed them (that's $2,000 worth of points).  The flexibility is expensive, but accepted because people may not think of the cash-equivalent.   
- Bigger issue is the inventory -- I am reluctant to rely on the system for a prime season reservation unless the Trust is very deep in the property.   Kauai Lagoons 2014 ressie worked.  Maui Ocean Club 2013 ressie did not. 
- System is closed to resale purchasers

An observation is that the last three years Marriott has been focused on major systemic changes (SpinCo and DClub) and the liquidation of its massive inventory.   Other systems (HGVC/Wyndham/DRI) have found innovative ways to expand in an asset-light manner during this same period, and have expanded their product offering.  Starwood has remained stable, relying on a ROFR/Re-sell strategy.

I hope that once Marriott has worked its inventory down to a manageable level, that they will begin to innovate as well.  This is not intended as a criticism as Marriott has had a great deal to execute in the last three years, and they have executed well.

Interesting stuff.   I will be curious to see how the system continues to evolve.

Best,

Greg


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## StevenTing (Jun 10, 2013)

rgrisard said:


> Help me understand why someone like me would join the club?  I own a gold week @ FC.   I only get 2,950 points.
> 
> Am I missing something obvious by not joining?   Looks like i'm better off not in the club, correct?



One thing I'm not sure of is if you are enrolled.  When you are enrolled, you can rent points from other members and then take advantage of the flexibility that everyone is talking about.  

With only 2950 points, if you wanted to, you could hypothetically rent 10,000 points from a other member and could book like 2 or 3 weeks in MOC or some other ridiculously long vacation.


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## LAX Mom (Jun 10, 2013)

Marriott DC points don't interest me. My weeks only qualified for a small amount of DC points so I didn't enroll. I might have considered it, but Marriott wouldn't even take the Summit Watch bronze week. 

I've used my Marriott resale weeks for 10+ years to exchange with II, usually during flexchange. Currently I own 2 off-season Marriott weeks that are great for flexchange. I am able to travel at the last minute and usually stay at 2 bedrooms at great resorts. I could never accomplish this with the DC points. 

As long as II continues to work for me I'm not interested in the DC points. If II doesn't have what I want in the future, I'll look for another travel option. Cruises? Rentals?


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## infamazz (Jun 10, 2013)

I've said this several times before, and I feel it is still relevant. I will reserve judgment on the DC program until that first year when they release the points schedule (maybe the 2015 schedule?) that reflects a point "inflation" (i.e. a night in a location for the 2015 period costs more in points than the exact same night in prior schedules). 

From that first uptick, we can calculate the expected rate of point inflation and determine whether it is actually a good deal in the long run. Until then, it sounds like it has been a good program for those with multiple weeks who have exchanged a week or 2 into DC while maintaining one traditional week.


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## Janette (Jun 10, 2013)

I may be shocked but Disney does not inflat their points. A couple of views have been changed mainly for the good of the customer. The total for a week has always been the same.


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## StevenTing (Jun 10, 2013)

There shouldn't be any reason for be number of points to increase because they are increasing the price per point.  If point price didn't increase, you'd more likely see reservation point requirement increase.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 10, 2013)

Janette said:


> I may be shocked but Disney does not inflat their points. A couple of views have been changed mainly for the good of the customer. The total for a week has always been the same.



Disney has several times over the years done large-scale reallocations in their Points Charts based on supply/demand - they're constrained, though, by rules that require them to offset any increases with decreases within the same Points Chart.  For example, if one night in the DVC Old Key West Points Chart increases by five points, decreases equaling five points must occur elsewhere in the OKW calendar.

There is some language in the Marriott DC docs which appears to give that same protection to DC Trust Members, that any increases must be offset by decreases; and, because Trust and Exchange Members use the same Points Charts, that protection would extend to Exchange Members as well.  Until a reallocation is done, though, we don't really know if Marriott is constrained similarly to DVC.  If they are, then we don't have to worry about escalating Points requirements similar to what happens in the Marriott Rewards Points system, where Marriott is free to make ongoing "inflationary" increases.


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## infamazz (Jun 10, 2013)

StevenTing said:


> There shouldn't be any reason for be number of points to increase because they are increasing the price per point.  If point price didn't increase, you'd more likely see reservation point requirement increase.



From a business standpoint, that wouldn't be the most lucrative way to increase revenue. And make no mistake, Marriott is a business that will look for ways to increase revenue. Why create a potential barrier to entry by increasing the price point? The alternative, increasing the point requirement, would allow Marriott to leverage their existing customer base by slowly requiring them to purchase additional points to maintain their purchasing power.

I'm not saying that a 10% across the board hike is likely. However, I can certainly see a 0-4% increase, with the 0% increase being for the least desirable properties and the 4% being for the most desirable. You wouldn't feel the pain initially, or even for the first 10 years. But you would wake up 10 years from now and find that what used to buy you 7 nights in Hawaii now buys you 5 or 6.


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## infamazz (Jun 10, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> Disney has several times over the years done large-scale reallocations in their Points Charts based on supply/demand - they're constrained, though, by rules that require them to offset any increases with decreases within the same Points Chart.  For example, if one night in the DVC Old Key West Points Chart increases by five points, decreases equaling five points must occur elsewhere in the OKW calendar.
> 
> There is some language in the Marriott DC docs which appears to give that same protection to DC Trust Members, that any increases must be offset by decreases; and, because Trust and Exchange Members use the same Points Charts, that protection would extend to Exchange Members as well.  Until a reallocation is done, though, we don't really know if Marriott is constrained similarly to DVC.  If they are, then we don't have to worry about escalating Points requirements similar to what happens in the Marriott Rewards Points system, where Marriott is free to make ongoing "inflationary" increases.



Good point. Hopefully I'm wrong and just a cynic, but we'll have to wait and see. When was the 2014 points chart released? Should we be expecting the 2015 anytime soon?


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## StevenTing (Jun 10, 2013)

Any kind of increase would have to be in 25 point increments. For some properties and days, that would be more than 10%.  I'd love to see a change where there is a discount for booking 7 days.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 10, 2013)

infamazz said:


> Good point. Hopefully I'm wrong and just a cynic, but we'll have to wait and see. When was the 2014 points chart released? Should we be expecting the 2015 anytime soon?



Unofficially, TUG was provided with the 2014 Points Chart in Jan, '13; officially, it was posted on the my-vacationclub.com site a couple months later.  (See this thread.)

Ideally, a Points Chart will be released each year at least in advance of any open Reservation Windows, so at least thirteen months in advance of the new year.

Getting back to reallocations in the Points Chart and comparing Marriott's to DVC's, one concern I have is that the difference between them is that Marriott deals with only one Trust for all intervals while DVC has Trusts for each of those resorts.  IF it's stipulated that any Marriott increases must be offset by decreases, will Marriott be able to offset increases at one resort with decreases at another (thus giving them the ability to increase high-demand/newer resort requirements on an ongoing basis while offsetting with decreases at the lower-demand/older ones?)  Or, will Marriott have to work within the Points Chart of each individual resort?

Interesting topic for sure, and one we've been discussing since the DC inception.  Actually, further back than even that, when the "speculation" thread was hot and heavy in the months prior to inception.


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## GregT (Jun 10, 2013)

All,

When I was all fired up about skimming, and was talking to John Goodman, who used to be Director of Customer Advocacy, I asked him about the possibility of point increases at properties in the future.

He told me that Marriott was required to keep the total points the same within each property -- and if they increase the weekly requirement for one week, they have to decrease the points required for another week, so that it balances.  He said they did expect to make these reallocations as they better understood supply/demand, but that the total points for a property wouldn't change.

Now....that's a verbal comment from a (now former) employee, but this at least was the thinking back in July/August 2010.

I differentiate between those programs that give points to reward loyalty (and then subsequently devalue those points) and a program where points are purchased for use to make reservations.  

Marriott has a different way of rewarding loyalty by skimming,  Whoops, how’d that slip past the censors.   I meant to say this situation is different, because points were purchased by us (not given to us).  I believe it would be much more difficult to devalue the points that were purchased, versus the loyalty points.  

All the best,

Greg


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## windje2000 (Jun 10, 2013)

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> When I was all fired up about skimming, and was talking to John Goodman, who used to be Director of Customer Advocacy, I asked him about the possibility of point increases at properties in the future.
> 
> ...



I believe the number of DC points assigned to legacy weeks can be changed (reduced) by Marriott at any time.  That would in no way 'dilute' the interests of trust point owners.

The inevitable decline in legacy owner point elections that would result from a reduction would adversely affect exchange co inventory, which would not be in Marriott's interest at this early stage in the life of the program.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 10, 2013)

windje2000 said:


> I believe the number of DC points assigned to legacy weeks can be changed (reduced) by Marriott at any time.  That would in no way 'dilute' the interests of trust point owners.
> 
> The inevitable decline in legacy owner point elections that would result from a reduction would adversely affect exchange co inventory, which would not be in Marriott's interest at this early stage in the life of the program.



That's what I think, too, that devaluation is much more a possibility in the allotments assigned to enrolled Weeks than in the requirements of the Points Charts.  Where the requirements appear to be somewhat protected from across-the-board devaluations by the governing doc language, there is nothing to protect allotments and in fact everywhere you turn you come up against warnings that allotments can change.

I also agree with you that it's not in Marriott's interest to enact such devaluations at this stage, not when they need Weeks to be in play in the DC Exchange Company.   Greg's point is a good one, too, that it's much easier to devalue a loyalty program than an ownership component.


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## taffy19 (Jun 10, 2013)

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> When I was all fired up about skimming, and was talking to John Goodman, who used to be Director of Customer Advocacy, I asked him about the possibility of point increases at properties in the future.
> 
> ...


I asked the same question and it was explained to me also. I found him very fair. I heard it from a Corporate Sales Manager too last year but I have spoken with so many privately without taking a tour because we are so frustrated that we bought because we were told that one week could be made two weeks long by locking off and exchanging with II. I believe that many people heard that same spiel and it worked great for many years but it wasn't in the contract so it was a perk while it lasted. The Destination Club ended exchanging for us since the start but we need one week in particular that is very popular.

That sales manager told me too that the point allocations can be changed between locations. If one resort becomes less popular and another one more popular then they can allocate more points to the new popular resort. I may be wrong but that is what I understood.

They can do the same with the week days and week-ends too, if it is necessary. I believe that the Disney Resorts did this some time ago. I don't believe that this will happen if Marriott can rent the week-ends out. They can only rent the week-ends out that they got from owners using their MRPs instead or the special travel packages that people may choose. Marriott can do what they please with them so the week-ends will always be valuable to them and too many points for the owners to use.

He also told me that they will never be short of points and that they had held back selling weeks at almost all resorts a long time before the Destination Club was rolled out. It took years for them to get this project accomplished and Marriott came up with a brilliant plan (his words) for them to make more money but also for the Legacy week owners too, if we take the time to get educated like here on TUG. 

They try to educate people when they are at the resort but people are on vacation. I went this March and there was only one other person at that meeting. Here is where I heard that points are points and that they made changes because owners wanted them. They are listening to our complaints or suggestions so we better make them. 

The II inventory will suffer where people choose points instead of their Legacy week and the MMO and MM1 are two of them where this is happening because of the high point value. I am reading this on the TUG board already that it is more difficult than before.

I was told one more thing during our last visit and that was that people wished they had a fixed week/unit at our resort and I believe that the Hyatt Residence Club is going to spill over some buyers to us for a re-sale unit or may even buy some Marriott Trust points direct because they can buy a cheaper package than what the Hyatt is offering. It will take 2 or 3 years to get a trip to Maui saved up and stay on the oceanfront but some people do not want to go every year but the maintenance fees will be very expensive to do this.

I read on TUG that the Hyatt prices start in the low 40's and up to the 100's. I posted the links in my photo album that I started when I was on Maui (mainly for ourselves so too many pictures).  

Here is the link and also the view that I believe will be left from the last condo on the south side of our building. All the condos in yellow should keep their ocean view but not as wide as it was before. One thing is for sure and that is that the towers will be awfully close together.


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## jeepie (Jun 10, 2013)

*Ideally...*



SueDonJ said:


> Ideally, a Points Chart will be released each year at least in advance of any open Reservation Windows, so at least thirteen months in advance of the new year.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Luxury Residences (RCC) still showing 2012 and 2013 (Explorer Collection) even though the 2014 points (increased requirements) were published internally April 1st.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 10, 2013)

Steve A said:


> I own four weeks. I like the option of not paying II for reservations. Besides the initial cost of reserving four weeks, I have frequently cancelled and re-booked at no charge. I have taken advantage of DC points only once using the 800 points plus a week at the Grand Chateau for 10 nights at the Kauai Beach Club in January.



THis was also our main reason for enrolling. We expected to break even on our $1995 enrollment fee in about four years. Now only two years from enrollment, we are only an exchange fee or so away from breaking even.



LAX Mom said:


> Marriott DC points don't interest me. My weeks only qualified for a small amount of DC points so I didn't enroll. I might have considered it, but Marriott wouldn't even take the Summit Watch bronze week.



Correct me if I am wrong. They would have allowed you to enroll your Summit Watch Bronze week, they would have just not provided any points to convert? Thus you could still save II fees if enrolled, you just can't convert it to points?


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## pwrshift (Jun 10, 2013)

I also think it is strange that few pure DC point members haven't found TUG, but perhaps that are afraid to admit to it, having since realized they wasted their money on something that can't be readily sold.  Same could be said for those like me who bought weeks direct from Marriott (at 60 cent CDN dollars at the time) only to find out now those platinum weeks sell on eBay for as little as $12.50.

Shame on Marriott for betraying their devoted owners.  Fool me once shame on Marriott...fool me twice, shame on me.  I bought 6 weeks from them that I use.

It was bad enough that Marriott feels they can hit owners with MF increases of 5-18% year after year and we all just accept this crap as there's no choice but to dump them on some other sucker.

I felt blackmailed into joining just before the deadline.  I spent 750 of the 800 points on a much less than prime time 2 nights I didn't really want, but time was running out.  Marriott said they'd keep the remaining 50 points if I didn't buy some DC points...I didn't, and they took.  I'm at their highest DC level if I was using DC points but don't see any advantage, especially with the skim scam.

Some here are positive, many are not.  When they sold week's I recommended friends buy Marriott TS, through the Friendshare program.  But I don't read here about anyone recommending the DC plan -- friends would only do that to enemies.

Brian


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## dioxide45 (Jun 10, 2013)

pwrshift said:


> I also think it is strange that few pure DC point members haven't found TUG, but perhaps that are afraid to admit to it, having since realized they wasted their money on something that can't be readily sold.  Same could be said for those like me who bought weeks direct from Marriott (at 60 cent CDN dollars at the time) only to find out now those platinum weeks sell on eBay for as little as $12.50.



I think pure trust owners are pretty rare. Consider when MVCI rolled out DC and started selling points, a huge percentage of sales were to current owners. Meaning they were selling small point packages to weeks based owners. So there are far more weeks/points owners that pure trust point owners. I think that can explain why there are so few that found Tug. There are a lot more people that owned weeks and bought additional points on Tug.


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## LAX Mom (Jun 10, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> Correct me if I am wrong. They would have allowed you to enroll your Summit Watch Bronze week, they would have just not provided any points to convert? Thus you could still save II fees if enrolled, you just can't convert it to points?



No, I was told numerous times by different sales reps that my Summit Watch bronze week couldn't be enrolled. I asked on the phone several times, it wouldn't let me enroll it online and I met with a sales rep at Custom House who promised to look into it when his computer wouldn't allow him to enroll it. I never heard back from him. 

I purchased the Summit Watch bronze week from Marriott for $1,500. Originally they withheld those weeks as "bonus weeks" for owners to book discounted stays during "mud season". It really bothered me that Marriott would sell me a week, then a couple of years later take the position that the week (in a resort developed by Marriott) wasn't good enough for the DC Club. 

It wasn't the fact that this bronze week was worth 0 points that bothered me. It was that Marriott wouldn't allow it to be enrolled at all. So if I had enrolled my other Marriott week I would have had to maintain 2 II accounts for exchanges. 

My Summit Watch bronze has been great for II exchanges during flexchange. I'm not sorry I bought it, just disappointed in Marriott for excluding it from the DC Club.


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## rpgriego (Jun 10, 2013)

pwrshift said:


> I also think it is strange that few pure DC point members haven't found TUG, but perhaps that are afraid to admit to it, having since realized they wasted their money on something that can't be readily sold.  Same could be said for those like me who bought weeks direct from Marriott (at 60 cent CDN dollars at the time) only to find out now those platinum weeks sell on eBay for as little as $12.50.



So... you bought your six weeks, after researching timeshares, to be an APPRECIATING investment?



pwrshift said:


> It was bad enough that Marriott feels they can hit owners with MF increases of 5-18% year after year and we all just accept this crap as there's no choice but to dump them on some other sucker.



While I haven't experienced an 18% MF increase, I did experience a multi-year Reserve Special Assessment for the sole purpose of a massive renovation project. While they didn't let us vote on it, I would of voted YES! I WANT MY TIMESHARES TO OFFER ME A FOUR SEASONS QUALITY. Who doesn't?



pwrshift said:


> I felt blackmailed into joining just before the deadline.  I spent 750 of the 800 points on a much less than prime time 2 nights I didn't really want, but time was running out.  Marriott said they'd keep the remaining 50 points if I didn't buy some DC points...I didn't, and they took.  I'm at their highest DC level if I was using DC points but don't see any advantage, especially with the skim scam.



So Marriott "blackmailed" you into joining? How do you define limited time offers for sporting event tickets? Or personal knowledge to buy your airline seat sooner rather than closer to the deadline/flight. Second, Marriott is to blame for, with all due respect, for your poor planning?



pwrshift said:


> Some here are positive, many are not.  When they sold week's I recommended friends buy Marriott TS, through the Friendshare program.  But I don't read here about anyone recommending the DC plan -- friends would only do that to enemies.



I find reading posts that date back to the Destinations Club launch agreeing with your "many are not" comment. However, today after reading current posts I find many owners to be happy. I also read a lot of owners asking, "How can I maximize the DClub?" KNOWLEDGE IS POWER... and TUG BBS posters willingly offer it.

BOTTOM LINE: If "many are not" how does Marriott keep selling to EXISTING owners?


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## rpgriego (Jun 10, 2013)

LAX Mom said:


> No, I was told numerous times by different sales reps that my Summit Watch bronze week couldn't be enrolled. I asked on the phone several times, it wouldn't let me enroll it online and I met with a sales rep at Custom House who promised to look into it when his computer wouldn't allow him to enroll it. I never heard back from him.
> 
> I purchased the Summit Watch bronze week from Marriott for $1,500. Originally they withheld those weeks as "bonus weeks" for owners to book discounted stays during "mud season". It really bothered me that Marriott would sell me a week, then a couple of years later take the position that the week (in a resort developed by Marriott) wasn't good enough for the DC Club.
> 
> ...



Have you reached out directly to the head of Customer Advocacy?


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## LAX Mom (Jun 10, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> Have you reached out directly to the head of Customer Advocacy?



No, I just decided not to bother with enrolling my weeks. II is still working for me now. I prefer to make plans within the flexchange period, so I'm able to get some great exchanges. If that changes I'll just give my Marriott weeks away.


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## GregT (Jun 11, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> So Marriott "blackmailed" you into joining? How do you define limited time offers for sporting event tickets? Or personal knowledge to buy your airline seat sooner rather than closer to the deadline/flight. Second, Marriott is to blame for, with all due respect, for your poor planning?
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...



RP,

This is WAY more complicated than this -- I wouldn't dismiss Brian's comments so quickly.   Joining DClub was a difficult decision for a lot of us -- if Marriott had structured the system differently, it would have been/should have been an easy decision.

But it wasn't an easy decision.

Your BOTTOM LINE question is very interesting -- but I suspect the answer is much more complicated than many might think.    Personally, I think for 25 years Marriott sold them week(s) that they may or may not still be able to use - and then introduced DClub, which lets them re-energize their aging timeshare weeks.   But the new system is a shiny penny, and Marriott skims the ownership so they have to buy new points to be able to use the new system effectively.   And Marriott needed those existing owners to buy points in the new system -- that's why I think they support it -- it's a good system, their travel needs have changed, and they are short of points. 

The irony of all of this is that Marriott needed the owners to cooperate and enroll their weeks -- because without the access to the weeks, the system would seize up.  This is why legacy owners are even allowed in, in my opinion.    

Brian articulated his feelings well -- I feel the same way, but I control it now, and now hunt for the opportunities in the system, for the benefit of me and my fellow TUGers.

Best,

Greg


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## rpgriego (Jun 11, 2013)

GregT said:


> Joining DClub was a difficult decision for a lot of us -- if Marriott had structured the system differently, it would have been/should have been an easy decision.
> 
> But it wasn't an easy decision.



As a member of a marketing/communication team I have to admit MVC launched the DClub without adequately training staff. They also didn't launch with a top-of-the-line website. With the web and social media becoming the 'Go To' for marketing and communications to captive audiences, they lacked a dedicated website with videos of real owners executing the various options that their computer models would show to be the most common, a 'Living Q&A', etc. to sell the DClub.

All OD experts know the resistance to change is intense and people will fight for the status quo, even in the face of extinction. I don't mean the human race, but allowing the business to reach the point of failure before realizing market forces drive change. And yes, the bottom line.



GregT said:


> Personally, I think for 25 years Marriott sold them week(s) that they may or may not still be able to use - and then introduced DClub, which lets them re-energize their aging timeshare weeks.



Now here MVC was genius and you picked-up on it. MVC avoided, tens of millions of potential unsold inventory write downs and transferred them to the trust. Some would correctly say, dumped. Then assigned those weeks points and now sells those points at the beautiful and highly desired Maui, Ko Olina, Las Vegas, Marco Island and even the overbuilt Orlando area with Lakeshore Reserve townhouses. You have to appreciate the business aspects of it, especially if you're a shareholder. Seriously, who can afford an entire week anymore? But, their lies the beauty of selling 1,000; 1,500; 2,000 or 2,500 points.

Now factor in the ROFR and foreclosed unit purchases from MVC HOA Boards or acquired at auction that they resell, potentially over and over if the timeshare cycle repeats itself. Again, ingenious, especially if you're a shareholder.



GregT said:


> But the new system is a shiny penny, and Marriott skims the ownership so they have to buy new points to be able to use the new system effectively.



So far, NO one can answer this question, even the 'Let's get a lawyer' posters from when the DClub launched...

How is an owner subjected to a "skim" when they can reserve their seven nights in season either as a DClub member or not? Or record a trade with it via Interval International? An owner can even conduct a private trade with their week.

Experience with the DClub has shown owners that while their buy in was steep not to mention the ingenious 'Annual Dues' for basically an 'exclusive' MVC exchange club, it works smoothly. OK... mostly for those that take the time to work the system. Now its rare to hear the "skim" or "Let's get a lawyer!" comments.



GregT said:


> And Marriott needed those existing owners to buy points in the new system -- that's why I think they support it -- it's a good system, their travel needs have changed, and they are short of points.



MVC knew going into this program who their primary target was. It was the same before and after the DClub launch.

Their computer models identified the appropriate thresholds for Premiere and Premiere PLUS so as to require the purchase of additional points. I bet they even have Premiere ULTRA in the wings. 

Their computer models also identified the average point level of existing owners and then established the point levels for 'premier/first class/highly sought after' properties so as to require the purchase of additional points.

Remember, Marriott Corporate is in the game of selling rooms. And their consultants came with data on DVC and Hilton and Starwood and whoever else transitioned to a points based system.

Again, they got the research right, but screwed-up the marketing/communication campaign. 



GregT said:


> The irony of all of this is that Marriott needed the owners to cooperate and enroll their weeks -- because without the access to the weeks, the system would seize up.  This is why legacy owners are even allowed in, in my opinion.



I think it's you that identified the number of weeks that have been added to the trust, right? I believe it's small, so your statement has credibility. Owners need to participate and multiple week owners have for the most part "evolved"! Why have they "evolved"? (I'm quoting a previous poster within this timeline.) Through first hand experience of the DClub, they gained knowledge regarding its ease of use and how to use Puck Trick I and II to sometimes beat the system.

If I came across as a bit rough, it was not my intention. I have a tendency to appreciate statements of fact, not opinion or emotion passed off as fact. This is an AMAZING blog that allows venting within reason.


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## MALC9990 (Jun 11, 2013)

infamazz said:


> From a business standpoint, that wouldn't be the most lucrative way to increase revenue. And make no mistake, Marriott is a business that will look for ways to increase revenue. Why create a potential barrier to entry by increasing the price point? The alternative, increasing the point requirement, would allow Marriott to leverage their existing customer base by slowly requiring them to purchase additional points to maintain their purchasing power.
> 
> I'm not saying that a 10% across the board hike is likely. However, I can certainly see a 0-4% increase, with the 0% increase being for the least desirable properties and the 4% being for the most desirable. You wouldn't feel the pain initially, or even for the first 10 years. But you would wake up 10 years from now and find that what used to buy you 7 nights in Hawaii now buys you 5 or 6.


BUT, increasing the price regularly has been the MVCI business model for years. I have never been to a sales presentation where I was NOT told that if I did not buy now the price would be higher next week! so I DO expect that to continue with quarterly or at least annual increases in the headline price of DC points while discounts will continue to be offered to get people to buy. 

The Asia Pacific Points system has been running for about 7 years now and the points required to get a MVCI resort reservation within the points club have not been increased in that time however there have been increases in the points required to book hotel rooms in the programme. These hotel room rates for AP Points are negotiated annually and so depend on that negotiation and so can changes or even disappear from the programme if a hotel decides to withdraw from the programme.

So I do not expect to see increases in DC points required at resorts across the board but as already stated there could be adjustments at a resort but that an increase for some periods will be balanced by a decrease in other periods.


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## MALC9990 (Jun 11, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> I think pure trust owners are pretty rare. Consider when MVCI rolled out DC and started selling points, a huge percentage of sales were to current owners. Meaning they were selling small point packages to weeks based owners. So there are far more weeks/points owners that pure trust point owners. I think that can explain why there are so few that found Tug. There are a lot more people that owned weeks and bought additional points on Tug.



The vast majority of weeks owners I meet at resorts have never heard of TUG. Every time I mention TUG to other owners as a good place to get good information, I get looked at as though I had two heads and come from the planet Krypton. Many still have not clued up on doing reservations online at 12 months and think you have to call in to make reservations. So the lack of pure Trust point owners here is not at all surprising.

How many regular posters are there here - 200, 300, 500 even if it were 1000 it would be a mere drop in the ocean of MVCI weeks owners.


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## benyu2010 (Jun 11, 2013)

> As a member of a marketing/communication team I have to admit MVC launched the DClub without adequately training staff. They also didn't launch with a top-of-the-line website. With the web and social media becoming the 'Go To' for marketing and communications to captive audiences, they lacked a dedicated website with videos of real owners executing the various options that their computer models would show to be the most common, a 'Living Q&A', etc. to sell the DClub.
> 
> All OD experts know the resistance to change is intense and people will fight for the status quo, even in the face of extinction. I don't mean the human race, but allowing the business to reach the point of failure before realizing market forces drive change. And yes, the bottom line.



RP, are you saying you are currently an employee of MVC?



> Now here MVC was genius and you picked-up on it. MVC avoided, tens of millions of potential unsold inventory write downs and transferred them to the trust. Some would correctly say, dumped. Then assigned those weeks points and now sells those points at the beautiful and highly desired Maui, Ko Olina, Las Vegas, Marco Island and even the overbuilt Orlando area with Lakeshore Reserve townhouses. You have to appreciate the business aspects of it, especially if you're a shareholder. Seriously, who can afford an entire week anymore? But, their lies the beauty of selling 1,000; 1,500; 2,000 or 2,500 points.
> 
> Now factor in the ROFR and foreclosed unit purchases from MVC HOA Boards or acquired at auction that they resell, potentially over and over if the timeshare cycle repeats itself. Again, ingenious, especially if you're a shareholder.



Duplicating history is not necessarily genius, DC program is indifferent to Vacation Internationale, Wyndham, Worldmark, and many other point systems you can name. MVC is pretty brilliant to leverage its brand and inventory of existing owners and owners themselves to launch DC program with very little upfront cost, which partly explained the marketing. It completely turned an upside turn situation 180 degree. However, it remains in its infant stage and a few salient issues of point system have not been apparent. As you said, most purchases are small packages up-selling to legacy week owners. When the time MVC sells large block of points 5K~15K at whim, it may remove any doubters in the market. This has not been the case yet...



> So far, NO one can answer this question, even the 'Let's get a lawyer' posters from when the DClub launched...
> 
> How is an owner subjected to a "skim" when they can reserve their seven nights in season either as a DClub member or not? Or record a trade with it via Interval International? An owner can even conduct a private trade with their week.
> 
> Experience with the DClub has shown owners that while their buy in was steep not to mention the ingenious 'Annual Dues' for basically an 'exclusive' MVC exchange club, it works smoothly. OK... mostly for those that take the time to work the system. Now its rare to hear the "skim" or "Let's get a lawyer!" comments.



Everything comes with a price. It is up to the individual's value and affordability. Working the system is temporary phenomenon, eventually everyone catches up and competes at even playing field.



> MVC knew going into this program who their primary target was. It was the same before and after the DClub launch.
> 
> Their computer models identified the appropriate thresholds for Premiere and Premiere PLUS so as to require the purchase of additional points. I bet they even have Premiere ULTRA in the wings.
> 
> ...



MVC may initiate another campaign to cross sell into other brands of same and higher spectrum for bigger fishes and they should get it right then...



> I think it's you that identified the number of weeks that have been added to the trust, right? I believe it's small, so your statement has credibility. Owners need to participate and multiple week owners have for the most part "evolved"! Why have they "evolved"? (I'm quoting a previous poster within this timeline.) Through first hand experience of the DClub, they gained knowledge regarding its ease of use and how to use Puck Trick I and II to sometimes beat the system.
> 
> If I came across as a bit rough, it was not my intention. I have a tendency to appreciate statements of fact, not opinion or emotion passed off as fact. This is an AMAZING blog that allows venting within reason.





> BOTTOM LINE: If "many are not" how does Marriott keep selling to EXISTING owners?



Could you provide more solid stats and facts to elaborate 'keep selling'? Are they selling more points per package or total points per week every quarter? MVC is in this a long haul for better, I believe it would be likely quite successful with backing of such strategic planning and resources. I'm curious of adaption and evolvement speed and it seems you are able to help with these questions...

Thank you,

Ben


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## m61376 (Jun 11, 2013)

Like a few others, I also had extensive conversations with John Goodman and then his successor before ultimately joining. Not to rehash a dead point, I was dismayed at the relatively poor allocation of points to Aruba and other Caribbean weeks, despite Marriott itself charging some of the highest rates in the system for exactly the same properties. Allocating in some cases far less points than properties that Marriott values at rental rates of half to two- thirds makes no sense to me. Anyway, he went into a rather long winded explanation of how timeshare owners were different than rental people, and how drive to locations were more important to timeshare owners than other vacationers, but that IF Marriott saw changes in request/ usage patterns over time potentially they might reallocate points between resorts. My impression was that it was unlikely, but that it could happen. 

My understanding was that it was more likely that over time as they got a better feel for interval demands that point costs for various weeks at properties might shift, with the total for the resort remaining the same - as Greg posted.

I could never quite get how the point cost for each property overall would stay the same, and only possibly shift between weeks at each property, yet have the door open for at least a possible (even if not probable) change in point allocations. At best, their explanation was quite murky and didn't make sense to me, likely because we were talking about possibilities rather than anything concrete.


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## jimf41 (Jun 11, 2013)

To sum up my experience with the DC system in one word--ecstatic. I just finalized my 2014 vacation plans. Two weeks RC St Thomas followed by three weeks at MFC in St Thomas JAN-FEB timeframe. Four weeks July all the same checkin date at Ocean Point. One 3bdrm, two 2bdrm OF and one 1bdrm OS so 17 of my family members can vacation together with each family having their own accommodations.

This just would not be possible with II. You might do it one year but you could never count on doing it year after year at 13 months out.

Yep, ecstatic, that's the right word.


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## puckmanfl (Jun 11, 2013)

good morning....

Jim... to quote "Catch Me if you Can"  Dr. Frank Conners  a.k.a Frank Abagnale Jr...

"I concur"....


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## GregT (Jun 11, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> How is an owner subjected to a "skim" when they can reserve their seven nights in season either as a DClub member or not? Or record a trade with it via Interval International? An owner can even conduct a private trade with their week.



RP, you have made very good points in your response, and I enjoy the intellectual banter.  

With respect to skimming in general, I accept that it's just the way the system works.   We may can debate why it was designed this way, and if it was necessary, but I simply accept that this is what is offered, and I have moved on.  I continue to view it as a hidden cost, and for me, it is a material hidden cost.

Specifically with respect to your question, we both agree that the owner voluntarily takes the legacy points allotted when redeeming their week.   

Obviously, that is a voluntary election, and as you pointed out, I currently have all the rights and privileges of owning a 3BR Week 25 at Maui Ocean Club, to do with as I please.   I am never required to redeem it for points.

But the instant I choose to redeem it for points, I accept the discounted value for that week.   When I use those points, I pay the higher value for the target week (for which a follow Marriott owner received a discounted value).  

So the owner of the week is compensated at wholesale value, and the owner must then pay retail value when they spend their points.   Simplistically, this is how I view skimming.

But that is just a component of the system, and I understand that -- I just don't like it.   Interval International incentivizes me to relinquish my  week by giving me a (now worthless) AC, because they need my week to make exchanges work.   Marriott incentivizes me to relinquish my week by giving me 86% of its retail value, even though they also need my week to make exchanges work.

Neither one of us wants to rehash old arguments -- we know where this ends up -- we agree to disagree.   I just really wish Marriott had introduced a system where owners were excited to enroll, versus doing so with trepidation.

The Marriott system is brilliantly designed, and I mean that both begrudgingly and with admiration.   I'm glad it exists, I'm glad I enrolled and I'm glad VAC was spun out of Marriott.  I hope Marriott continues its recent trend of owner friendly features that we've seen in the last couple of years.

Best,

Greg


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## SueDonJ (Jun 11, 2013)

GregT said:


> ... The Marriott system is brilliantly designed, and I mean that both begrudgingly and with admiration.   I'm glad it exists, I'm glad I enrolled and I'm glad VAC was spun out of Marriott.  I hope Marriott continues its recent trend of owner friendly features that we've seen in the last couple of years.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Hear hear!


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## bazzap (Jun 11, 2013)

Greg
I like your wholesale / retail value analogy with the "skim"
It gives a good, clear sense of the impact on weeks owners.
And as you rightly say, it is just an option that you can elect based on whatever criteria is important to you personally in any given year.
On that basis, I too like the flexibility and use it for some weeks and some resorts.


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## taffy19 (Jun 11, 2013)

m61376 said:


> Like a few others, I also had extensive conversations with John Goodman and then his successor before ultimately joining. Not to rehash a dead point, I was dismayed at the relatively poor allocation of points to Aruba and other Caribbean weeks, despite Marriott itself charging some of the highest rates in the system for exactly the same properties. Allocating in some cases far less points than properties that Marriott values at rental rates of half to two- thirds makes no sense to me. Anyway, he went into a rather long winded explanation of how timeshare owners were different than rental people, and how drive to locations were more important to timeshare owners than other vacationers, *but that IF Marriott saw changes in request/ usage patterns over time potentially they might reallocate points between resorts*. My impression was that it was unlikely, but that it could happen.
> 
> My understanding was that it was more likely that over time as they got a better feel for interval demands that point costs for various weeks at properties might shift, with the total for the resort remaining the same - as Greg posted.
> 
> I could never quite get how the point cost for each property overall would stay the same, and only possibly shift between weeks at each property, yet have the door open for at least a possible (even if not probable) change in point allocations. At best, their explanation was quite murky and didn't make sense to me, likely because we were talking about possibilities rather than anything concrete.


This is what I understood too and I remember asking him why Aruba points were so low against the Maui resorts points as both rent very high (rack rates). He told me that it also had to do with the sales prices that owners had paid and the Maui prices were very high just before they rolled out the new system.

This was true and then they devalued the prices by 25% during the week that we were there. How do you think that we felt about that? It was a slap in our face and certainly to the people who had bought in that month but couldn't rescind the contract. 

Their retail prices at some of the Marriott resorts had just gone out of reach that people could or were willing to pay so the point system is a much better system for the Marriott and the owners have the flexibility now that other resorts had already for many years but it is a very expensive system.

Once Hawaii is no longer that popular, I expect the point values to go down and if and when newer resorts will be added, they will have higher point values than Maui yet just like Wyndham does or other point based resorts. It is called inflation.


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## mjm1 (Jun 11, 2013)

GregT said:


> =
> 
> So the owner of the week is compensated at wholesale value, and the owner must then pay retail value when they spend their points.   Simplistically, this is how I view skimming.
> 
> ...



Greg, I also like your description of the program using the wholesale vs retail analogy.  I too don't like that aspect of it, but the flexibility is nice. There are trade offs in everything, and with the creative ideas that you, Puck, and others have presented over the past few years, the key is to maximize the value by using the system in a way that most benefits the owner.

Keep up the great ideas and work.  Much appreciated!


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## Mamianka (Jun 11, 2013)

mjm1 said:


> Greg, I also like your description of the program using the wholesale vs retail analogy.  I too don't like that aspect of it, but the flexibility is nice. There are trade offs in everything, and with the creative ideas that you, Puck, and others have presented over the past few years, the key is to maximize the value by using the system in a way that most benefits the owner.
> 
> Keep up the great ideas and work.  Much appreciated!




What's that old saying?:  "Sometimes you are the pigeon, and sometimes you are the statue".  Because we have the flexibility of retired folks, we have found that some years, we trade time for square feet (using points to get more Larger units, and are left with fewer or no guest units) and some years we just use our trades conventionally - doing the math both ways.  We are owners who enrolled our properties, but seldom turn in the EOY Beachplace for points, and seldom trade it; the MGC has been turned into points lately, but we intend to use the property itself as trades in the next couple of years.  I have said here that I devised my own little allocation system, giving 1.4 points per night to a large until, and .6 points to a guest - I based this on square footage, since both units could use the same facilities at each resort.  If I allocated it 1.3 versus .7, or 1.2 versus .8, I still find that I get excellent value; I am more than willing in some places to give up TIME for square feet, and in other instances, found that my small unit would score me a bigger one!  When I look at the totals on my little homemade spreadsheet for the last few years, and projections into the future, I am more than happy - even WITH "skim", which I have no problem with, because my usage has beat it.  Yes, we can travel in shoulder seasons - but this does not drive our choices, especially.

We do not know the tricks that many of the smarter-than-us folks here do, but for what we paid, what our fees are (OK, it would be nice if they were lower, or just did not RISE as fast!) and what we are getting - we are just fine.  Could somebody ELSE take my properties and make them dance faster and longer?  Maybe - but planning things ourselves is more than half the fun.  Buying Marriott timeshares was a good thing for us, since it propelled us to make a decision every year, and GO!  
M


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## MOXJO7282 (Jun 11, 2013)

To me it seems the points program is good for two groups of Marriott TS owners. Those that own prime and can travel in less than prime because even with the skim you can turn 7 days into 10-12 days if you're creative. And those that own lesser units that weren't trading in Maui and now can accumulate points and make their dream vacation come true.

However for someone like me who own prime units and still travels by the school calendar which is super primetime the points program at this time is of no value.

Also we rent what we don't use. Initially I investigated whether we could turn in 2 lesser units for points and get Maui and Aruba to Rent but again the math was not favorable in the points system.

I do see how great it can be when just in the use mode and you're smart about maximizing your value like Puck and Greg T. 


Am I missing something? 

*If you own prime resorts and only want to travel to prime resorts is the points program for you?*I think to go for those types of units the points needed will just be too costly and to me the best approach would be to rent your unit for cash and rent a week for cash.

The big thing the points program does give you is flexibility and that is huge for a big segment of the traveling public.  I think that is why they are doing pretty well with new customers. Alot of people only want to take a 5 day vacation these days. Or not take a vacation every year. The points does give you that. But then again if you're a weeks owner you can rent your unit and rent points and accomplish the same thing .

Still don't see the value of the points program for anyone like me but for those that want to trade down or trade up to some degree of another I can see how valuable the program can be.


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## GregT (Jun 11, 2013)

MOXJO7282 said:


> Still don't see the value of the points program for anyone like me



Joe, 

One thing you could consider is renting points -- and then appending a few days to your existing week rentals business?   But only if a 8/9/10 day reservation in Aruba/Hawaii will rent for a daily premium versus a 7 day reservation?

I know people who want a 10 day reservation when they go to Hawaii because 7 days seems too short (and it is) -- you are uniquely positioned to fill that demand?

Just a thought...

Best,

Greg


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## m61376 (Jun 11, 2013)

I think a post as to the value of the current enrollment bonus point offer is also in order here. While I joined kinda reluctantly, basically for two reasons- as someone else stated, to protect my "investment," since resale weeks were being basically grandfathered with full privileges, and the other to potentially take advantage of being able to rent points- I did maximize my value from the new enrollment offer. Those bonus points, albeit holding points, can really have value, either for use or even for rental of a reservation. 

Taking advantage of Marriott's recent 40% discount for 6 night reservation at Florida properties, I was able to translate those bonus points into 3 2BR villas for 6 nights each. As it turned out, my daughter's in-laws couldn't make it, so I only needed 2 villas. I changed the reservation date for the one I couldn't use to one that seemed a bit more rentable and used the last minute rental board here on Tug. So for my enrollment fee I got two units that Marriott.com rents for a little over 2K each, and that even Getaways are close to a grand apiece, and managed to make a few dollars on a rental to boot. So the $2400 enrollment fee isn't as egregious as it seems at first glance with a little creative use.

As for us- although I still have a lot of reservations about the system, I'm really glad I joined. Had it not been for those points expiring in the near future, I would not have been so motivated to plan the trip. And, as has been said over and over again, family trip memories are priceless!:whoopie:


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## aka Julie (Jun 11, 2013)

m61376 said:


> I think a post as to the value of the current enrollment bonus point offer is also in order here.



What is the current enrollment bonus point offer?


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## Superchief (Jun 11, 2013)

I was also very skeptical and upset when MVC implemented the DC program. Although I don't like the 'skim', and 3 of my MVC resorts have MF that excede the .42 cost per DC point, I have found the program to be beneficial to me overall. These are things that enhance the value of the program for me:
1. The devaluation of MR award points have virtually eliminated my previous option of converting to MR points when I couldn't use my week, especially at Royal Palms (110k MR points could be redeemed every year). The increased cost to stay in a Marriott hotel/resort makes staying in a MVC resort relatively more attractive. Resort fees, expensive parking, and elimination of platinum benefits have eliminated the attractiveness to vacation at Marriott vs. staying in an MVC timeshare.
2. Our daughters are now adults, so we can upgrade location and season by staying in a 1BR by using our DC points. We also usually have flexibility to stay in non-prime seasons, when point requirements are significantly lower.
3. Short stays and additional nights add to travel flexibility. 
4. Although we still use II for trades for our lower DC value properties, we can make a reservation using DC points 13 months in advance (Premiere Plus members). If we are fortunate to get a trade into that resort, we can always cancel our DC reservation (at least 60 days in advance with no penalty). 
5. The point rental website has enabled me to not lose any DC points due to expiration. I can almost always cover my MF fees by renting DC points that we can't use. This lessens the effect of what I consider to be the most negative aspect of the program: point expiration in 2 yr. or less. 

As many of you have mentioned, you need to learn how to work the system to our advantage. We never convert our Royal Palms (Red), Oceana Palms(Gold), or Canyon Villas (Gold) weeks to DC points because the MF per point excedes the .42 per point threshold. The DC points for Oceana Palms Gold are less than our Ocean Pointe Silver, and Oceana Palms is our favorite resort so we always stay there. 

My recent job change due to another merger has limited my vacation to 3 weeks, so I need to be creative for the next few years until I can use all of my weeks (which I look forward to doing). The DC program provides more options for me to at least cover my costs and better plan our vacations. 

We really enjoy our vacations, and MVC is again becoming a relative bargain compared to vacation alternatives today. I don't know how a family of 4 can afford a traditional vacation at a Marriott resort at today's prices. We are also fortunate to have enjoyed many family vacations at Royal Palms prior to the Disney price gauging and overwhelming crowds. 

I'm also happy that MVC was spun off from Marriott. New management and Ed French have really ruined the MR loyalty program and Courtyard hotels. Although I was a loyal member from the inception of the Marquis program, it is apparent that loyalty is no longer valued so my hotel choice is based purely on price/value.


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## SMB1 (Jun 11, 2013)

MOXJO7282 said:


> To me it seems the points program is good for two groups of Marriott TS owners. Those that own prime and can travel in less than prime because even with the skim you can turn 7 days into 10-12 days if you're creative. And those that own lesser units that weren't trading in Maui and now can accumulate points and make their dream vacation come true.
> 
> However for someone like me who own prime units and still travels by the school calendar which is super primetime the points program at this time is of no value.
> 
> ...



If I locked of my weeks and deposited them all into II I really have more than I can use.  DC gives me the option to take some of my e=weeks and turn them into weeks that I probably wouldn't be able to get via trade.  For instance I stayed at Mountainside Park City presidents week this year.  Would have been a tough trade.  I used the puck trick (and switched our last night from a 2 br to a studio for the wake up and leave) and got enough points back to send my wife and a friend to BPT in April, 2BR for 4 nights, and still have points left over for something more.  Also using advice from a tugger I will take the remaining 1100 points I have for this year to stay a night in NYC through the explorer collection.  Granted it is not a great value for 1100 points but I will use 1100 points that I got basically for free and have 0 points left over for the year.  We will supplement this night with a second night using MR points.  I couldn't be happier.

The other thing DC allows me to do is take less desirable weeks and reserve rentable weeks.  In 2014 I elected points for my GV gold and Lakeshore Reserve premiere plus 2 BR deluxe.   I reserved a 3 BR townhouse at LR during April school vacation.  I will rent my Oceanwatch week and reserve a second oceanwatch week and rent both.  I will recoup enough money to pay the maintenance fees for my 3 marriott weeks, my 2000 DC points, my non marriott week and still take the week vacation in april and trade my non marriott week for a summer vacation in Myrtle Beach, Newport RI, or Cape Cod, whichever comes in first.  I'm very happy with the DC program.


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## SMB1 (Jun 11, 2013)

One thing I'm not excited about is the fact that I thought that I thought I would have plenty of opportunity to stay at Custom House which is the only Marriott time share easily accessible to me.  At the introduction of DC when I was bothered by the skim and unsure whether to enroll I checked the availaablity of CH and there was plenty of availability throughout the summer only a few weeks out.  Well there isn't any more.  But that just means that there are others who are taking advantage of the DC as I am.  I will have to plan furhter in advance.


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## suzannesimon (Jun 11, 2013)

I joined DC Club in the beginning for flexibility.  I've only converted to points once - converted a 3 BR Plat Plus FC for a 3 BR at GC spring break and then rented my leftover 900 points.  I probably won't do that again.  I lost about $2,000 on the trade and point rental deal.  I should have rented my FC and rented the GC from an owner.  I also have not been able to get a well-located
unit post-DC, even at my home resort and home week.  I attribute that to the fact that there are daily check-in's limiting the available units on a Fri, Sat or Sun when using your legacy week during peak travel weeks.

I may change my mind, however, when I retire to Florida in a couple years.  At that time, I will be able to travel anytime, not just holidays, and be driving distance to many resorts.  If I can get 2 weeks, non peak, out of one week of peak DC points, it may well be worth it then.


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## rpgriego (Jun 11, 2013)

GregT said:


> Obviously, that is a voluntary election, and as you pointed out, I currently have all the rights and privileges of owning a 3BR Week 25 at Maui Ocean Club, to do with as I please.   I am never required to redeem it for points.
> 
> But the instant I choose to redeem it for points, I accept the discounted value for that week.   When I use those points, I pay the higher value for the target week (for which a follow Marriott owner received a discounted value).
> 
> So the owner of the week is compensated at wholesale value, and the owner must then pay retail value when they spend their points.   Simplistically, this is how I view skimming.



Now I understand how you determine the famous "skim"!



GregT said:


> Neither one of us wants to rehash old arguments -- we know where this ends up -- we agree to disagree.   I just really wish Marriott had introduced a system where owners were excited to enroll, versus doing so with trepidation.



Do you really think owners are still showing "trepidation" regarding joining the DClub? I don't. Reading this timeline shows just how much owners "trepidation" has changed/decreased/evolved into bragging how they work it to save money, save points, combine points, rent points for cents on the dollar, etc.

Again, Marriott screwed-up the launch (marketing, communication and front-line training)!


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## rpgriego (Jun 11, 2013)

bazzap said:


> Greg
> I like your wholesale / retail value analogy with the "skim"
> It gives a good, clear sense of the impact on weeks owners.
> And as you rightly say, it is just an option that you can elect based on whatever criteria is important to you personally in any given year.
> On that basis, I too like the flexibility and use it for some weeks and some resorts.



voluntary impact


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## EducatedConsumer (Jun 11, 2013)

I think the Destination Club is a lot of smoke, with the sole purpose of benefiting Marriott Developer Sales and devaluing Legacy Weeks and the resale market. 

Now that Marriott Vacation Club is nothing but a Marriott franchisee, and no longer wholly owned by Marriott, I wonder if the Marriott culture and values that once existed at Marriott Vacation Club will be eroded or lost.


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## rpgriego (Jun 11, 2013)

benyu2010 said:


> RP, are you saying you are currently an employee of MVC?



Really? What even made you think I worked for MVW or MC?



benyu2010 said:


> Duplicating history is not necessarily genius, DC program is indifferent to Vacation Internationale, Wyndham, Worldmark, and many other point systems you can name.



Everyone in the business world understands, know what your completion is doing and copy the success and avoid the stumbles and failures. Just look at Apple vs Samsung vs Google OR McDs vs any other fast food chain OR Disney Theme Parks vs Universal Theme Parks. You honestly think DClub doesn't share one, not one, common characteristic with other timeshare point systems?



benyu2010 said:


> As you said, most purchases are small packages up-selling to legacy week owners. When the time MVC sells large block of points 5K~15K at whim, it may remove any doubters in the market. This has not been the case yet...



I think MVW will see sales continue to improve, albeit slowly, as the worldwide economy improves. Remember, MVW sells to the world.



benyu2010 said:


> Everything comes with a price. It is up to the individual's value and affordability. Working the system is temporary phenomenon, eventually everyone catches up and competes at even playing field.



Ah, MVC has been around for how long? And STILL owners don't know how to maximize their timeshare investment/purchase. S E R I O U S L Y . . . owners need to gain knowledge and the decrease of "trepidation" that comes with it! Until then we get the better trades, destinations, etc.


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## rpgriego (Jun 11, 2013)

suzannesimon said:


> I joined DC Club in the beginning for flexibility.  I've only converted to points once - converted a 3 BR Plat Plus FC for a 3 BR at GC spring break and then rented my leftover 900 points.  I probably won't do that again.  I lost about $2,000 on the trade and point rental deal.  I should have rented my FC and rented the GC from an owner.  I also have not been able to get a well-located
> unit post-DC, even at my home resort and home week.  I attribute that to the fact that there are daily check-in's limiting the available units on a Fri, Sat or Sun when using your legacy week during peak travel weeks.
> 
> I may change my mind, however, when I retire to Florida in a couple years.  At that time, I will be able to travel anytime, not just holidays, and be driving distance to many resorts.  If I can get 2 weeks, non peak, out of one week of peak DC points, it may well be worth it then.



Do you have the ability to reserve at the 13-month mark, premium free?


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## rpgriego (Jun 11, 2013)

Superchief said:


> 1. The devaluation of MR award points have virtually eliminated my previous option of converting to MR points when I couldn't use my week, especially at Royal Palms (110k MR points could be redeemed every year). The increased cost to stay in a Marriott hotel/resort makes staying in a MVC resort relatively more attractive. Resort fees, expensive parking, and elimination of platinum benefits have eliminated the attractiveness to vacation at Marriott vs. staying in an MVC timeshare.



I continually sell my family, friends and co-worker referrals based on the MRP election. Right now, I'm pushing MVC Resales Imperial Palms Special at $14,000 with ANNUAL MRPs. I'm the biggest proponent of Travel Packages-- FIRST CLASS tickets to Europe, South America, Asia, Australia, etc. and Category 9 locations.

MRPs ROCK!


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## FractionalTraveler (Jun 12, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> I continually sell my family, friends and co-worker referrals based on the MRP election. Right now, I'm pushing MVC Resales Imperial Palms Special at $14,000 with ANNUAL MRPs. I'm the biggest proponent of Travel Packages-- FIRST CLASS tickets to Europe, South America, Asia, Australia, etc. and Category 9 locations.
> 
> MRPs ROCK!



As a Marriott Lifetime Platinum Elite I agree 100% with Superchief regarding the devaluation of MR Points.  Trading vacation usage for MR Points is probably one of the worst value propositions available.

Those first class tickets will usually end up costing an owner at least several weeks of usage in return for a 12-14 hour plane ride across the globe.

You will have to trade an entire week of MVCI usage to get a total of 2.8 days at one of the five CAT 9 hotels in the USA.

That Imperial Palms special at $14K will probably only garner 125K yearly MR points which only buys about 3-4 hotel days in a 400 SQFT box.

Only Top Tier Platinum elites who accumulate millions of points every 6-8 months due to business travel justify making those types of transactions.

For the average MVCI owner who has no other real means of accumulating points the trade for MR Points can be attractive but certainly not a wise desicion.


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## GregT (Jun 12, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> Now I understand how you determine the famous "skim"!



Do you disagree with the logic?  Your posts make me curious?



rpgriego said:


> Do you really think owners are still showing "trepidation" regarding joining the DClub? I don't. Reading this timeline shows just how much owners "trepidation" has changed/decreased/evolved into bragging how they work it to save money, save points, combine points, rent points for cents on the dollar, etc.
> 
> Again, Marriott screwed-up the launch (marketing, communication and front-line training)!



No.  The "trepidation" (as you like to quote) was 2+ years ago (which was a bit before your arrival last March)  and it was real.  Many of us have worked hard to figure this system out.  I welcome your positive contributions to the collective knowledge base on how to maximize the system.  I am sure they are forthcoming.



rpgriego said:


> voluntary impact



Yes, as I said, thank you.



rpgriego said:


> Ah, MVC has been around for how long? And STILL owners don't know how to maximize their timeshare investment/purchase. S E R I O U S L Y . . . owners need to gain knowledge and the decrease of "trepidation" that comes with it! Until then we get the better trades, destinations, etc.



Your comment that owners need to gain knowledge and the decrease of "trepidation" that comes with it -- appears condescending? (and off base) -- can you elaborate?

Thank you.


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## bogey21 (Jun 12, 2013)

I wasn't interested in the DC at all but figured Marriott would find a way to make it work so I bought VAC stock.  I am a happy camper.

George


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## MOXJO7282 (Jun 12, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> I wasn't interested in the DC at all but figured Marriott would find a way to make it work so I bought VAC stock.  I am a happy camper.
> 
> George


Me too. Only wish I bought more. My 50 shares are up 46%.


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## benyu2010 (Jun 12, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> Everyone in the business world understands, know what your completion is doing and copy the success and avoid the stumbles and failures. Just look at Apple vs Samsung vs Google OR McDs vs any other fast food chain OR Disney Theme Parks vs Universal Theme Parks. You honestly think DClub doesn't share one, not one, common characteristic with other timeshare point systems?
> 
> I think MVW will see sales continue to improve, albeit slowly, as the worldwide economy improves. Remember, MVW sells to the world.
> 
> Ah, MVC has been around for how long? And STILL owners don't know how to maximize their timeshare investment/purchase. S E R I O U S L Y . . . owners need to gain knowledge and the decrease of "trepidation" that comes with it! Until then we get the better trades, destinations, etc.



You may miss my point. I say they are indifferent, in the other word, pretty much the same don't you agree?

I think DC program is maturing, so rapid growth shall be expected...too slow might not be a good sign. TUGgers are small group of knowledgeable and critical timeshare owners, I believe a mixed signal here towards DC possibly implied a strong positive in overall market reception.

Timeshare are mostly impulse buy from developers, it is not a surprise majority of owners never learn or willing to learn to maximize its value. After all, not all date the prom queen or puck the holiday week...Seriously, three years is only three weeks for most owners...


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## suzannesimon (Jun 12, 2013)

I can reserve 7 days at the 13 month mark which is all I currently want.


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## pwrshift (Jun 12, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> I continually sell my family, friends and co-worker referrals based on the MRP election. *Right now, I'm pushing MVC Resales Imperial Palms Special at $14,000 with ANNUAL MRPs*. I'm the biggest proponent of Travel Packages-- FIRST CLASS tickets to Europe, South America, Asia, Australia, etc. and Category 9 locations.
> 
> MRPs ROCK!



What world do you live in?  Quick way to lose friends. Sure sounds like a Marriott sales rep to me.  There was a time, years ago, that you could use MR points to book a hotel room for less than the equivalent value of cash (based on Marriott's selling price to buy MR points).  I could get 110,000 MR points for  $400 MF at Manor Club...now those Same points cost $1,100 MF. Today, it's usually cheaper to pay cash and earn MR points.  Spending them for value is the problem.

Back on the DC Plan....Basic marketing 101 assumes a company cannot expand its market by depending only on existing customers because all businesses lose 10-20% of existing customers every year. Without new customers coming into the fold, the business heads towards failure. To grow, a company must add more customers than they lose each year.  New customers have to buy DC points to join...not resales from eBay.

When Marriott loses a 'weeks owner' to a quick eBay sale that inventory is gone from the DC Plan use. Over time all existing 'weeks' will be lost unless Marriott changes their policy or starts building again. Marriott is living in a dream world if they think otherwise.  They adopted the DC point plan exclusively but needed to entice weeks owners to join up for inventory needs.  Otherwise they would have told us all to get lost.

Brian


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## Whirl (Jun 12, 2013)

*Flexibility and affordability....Thumbs up!*

It has been an ideal development for me ---

Flexibility - book what I want, multiple villas in a view that I choose and am guaranteed at high quality hotels that I know should always at least meet basic  requirements and standards (some are better than others) . Love the access to Ritz Carltons as well. 

Affordability- some say its expensive but it depends on what you would do otherwise.   These are the same hotels/ or similar that I would book otherwise, so with my points I can generally do it less expensively. The price I pay is the need for advance planning and learning the rules well,  and I am willing to do that.  I can still cancel if I want to, just like a hotel. 

If you are trying to trade up all the time ( into bigger units and higher quality resorts than you own or would otherwise pay for, as I used to before life got too busy for that), then the system will not work for you since one cant really "game it" in that sense....The values are set and I am ok with tranparency and clarity. You can learn to use it and maximize your options as Puck and GregT and others demonstrate all the time. 

I like that it is straight forward and I either get what I want or I dont. If I dont, then I can still do what the rest of the world does and go to Marriott.com or any other website of my choosing and make a reservation. Either way, I am taking a great vacation!


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## dioxide45 (Jun 12, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> Now I understand how you determine the famous "skim"!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Trust me, early on there was a lot of trepidation, myself included. We did many analysis and discussion as to whether the DClub was a wise "investment". We didn't enroll our two weeks until a year in because of the huge enrollment fee for resale owners. I would suspect with the fee increase, the trepidation has actually increased for many. There were a lot of unknowns back in the beginning, and there are still some. Though we are getting a better handle on how this all works and how it affects us.


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## rpgriego (Jun 12, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> Trust me, early on there was a lot of trepidation, myself included. We did many analysis and discussion as to whether the DClub was a wise "investment". We didn't enroll our two weeks until a year in because of the huge enrollment fee for resale owners. I would suspect with the fee increase, the trepidation has actually increased for many. There were a lot of unknowns back in the beginning, and there are still some. Though we are getting a better handle on how this all works and how it affects us.



I'm a HUGE proponent of MVC and now the DClub for multiple week owners. But, the enrollment fee has increased dramatically, now $2,395. In my opinion, owners really need to do a cost vs benefit analysis. 

I guess I need to look at what I did and realize they may be in the same position. After all, I DESPERATELY wanted the option of MRPs for my eBay DSVI and the ability to stop paying a la carte fees related to exchanges.


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## rpgriego (Jun 13, 2013)

FractionalTraveler said:


> As a Marriott Lifetime Platinum Elite I agree 100% with Superchief regarding the devaluation of MR Points.  Trading vacation usage for MR Points is probably one of the worst value propositions available.
> 
> Those first class tickets will usually end up costing an owner at least several weeks of usage in return for a 12-14 hour plane ride across the globe.
> 
> ...



So a FIRST Class ticket in July LAX to Rome on AA is not worth $9,000 (First Mile Saver award= 125,000 AAdvantage miles) because of a 12-14 hour flight? I think the art, history and the all around fun of Rome is worth a nights sleep, remember the seat turns into a six foot, six inch fully flat bed.

So for me, every other year I elect MRPs for my DSVI (110,000) and IP (125,000). Every year I can elect for my RP (110,000), but stick with every other year. I never elect MRPs for my Ko Olina because MVC gives me just shy of 6,000 DClub points annually.

So I receive 345,000 MRPs for a one-time cost of $4,500 or .013 per MRP.

I contact MRewards for a 7 night Travel Package Category 9 for 390,000 MRPs. They deposit 120,000 MRPs into my AAdvantage account and award me 7 nights hotel.

Now 7 nights at the Rome Grand Flora has a value as well.

Correct me if I'm WRONG...
$4,500 MFs COMPARED to the combined value of a $9,000 AA airfare AND the value of 7 nights at the Rome Grand Flora.

I believe even with "the devalue of MR Points" an owner can AVOID a "worst value proposition" situation or making a "certainly not a wise desicion" when electing MRPs and redeeming for a Travel Package.

Now I execute this plan every other year as do some of my buddies. NOTE: one buddy just elect points annually, but at the end of the day he is paying the same to accomplish what we do, just not as frequently.

BOTTOM LINE... Marriott Vacation Club ROCKS for me, my family and my buds!


----------



## rpgriego (Jun 13, 2013)

pwrshift said:


> What world do you live in?  Quick way to lose friends. Sure sounds like a Marriott sales rep to me.  There was a time, years ago, that you could use MR points to book a hotel room for less than the equivalent value of cash (based on Marriott's selling price to buy MR points).  I could get 110,000 MR points for  $400 MF at Manor Club...now those Same points cost $1,100 MF. Today, it's usually cheaper to pay cash and earn MR points.  Spending them for value is the problem.
> 
> Back on the DC Plan....Basic marketing 101 assumes a company cannot expand its market by depending only on existing customers because all businesses lose 10-20% of existing customers every year. Without new customers coming into the fold, the business heads towards failure. To grow, a company must add more customers than they lose each year.  New customers have to buy DC points to join...not resales from eBay.
> 
> ...



LOL... I live on a planet called earth. And no, I'm not a Marriott Sales Rep. BTW... I speak just as strongly for Disney, Apple, Google and my car.  No, I'm not a rep for these brands.

I responded to FractionalTraveler who I believe holds your same position. 

May want to check your "Basic Marketing 101" in relation to MVC losing customers. I prefer to rely on Marriott's 10Ks to understand sales. I like the "dream world" reference, but again the success in raising point prices and the HUGE enrollment fee seems again to show buyers are buying into the "dream"!


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## FractionalTraveler (Jun 13, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> So a FIRST Class ticket in July LAX to Rome on AA is not worth $9,000 (First Mile Saver award= 125,000 AAdvantage miles) because of a 12-14 hour flight? I think the art, history and the all around fun of Rome is worth a nights sleep, remember the seat turns into a six foot, six inch fully flat bed.
> 
> So for me, every other year I elect MRPs for my DSVI (110,000) and IP (125,000). Every year I can elect for my RP (110,000), but stick with every other year. I never elect MRPs for my Ko Olina because MVC gives me just shy of 6,000 DClub points annually.
> 
> ...



I am an AA Executive Platinum for the last 15 years.  You will never get a first class reward ticket on AA for that route in July at 125K AA points.  Try more like 150K-200K per seat.  Oh and I suppose you go on vacation alone?  else you will need to double down on your point requirements.

Hate to burst your bubble but American Airlines stopped participating in the Marriott Rewards Program 3 years ago (July 1, 2010), so your all out of luck with AA.

See link to the current 4 travel packages available: https://www.marriott.com/rewards/usepoints/morepack.mi

Look at the Participating Airlines.  NO American Airlines!

Also Refer to this link: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/13873894-post13.html

And this link for the response from Marriott: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/13874189-post14.html

Your 390K Travel package includes 120K points for the Air portion.  As stated above, that will only get you 2 coach class tickets at best (if available at 335 days in advance depending on airline choice).

I have stayed at the Grand Flora several times on business & holiday and don't think its worth the points requirement.  The service is subpar and the rooms are nothing but standard small rooms with nice crown moldings and picture frames.  They also charge for extra guests in the room even when you are staying on rewards points.

There are much better hotels a lot closer to the center city than the Grand Flora.

Your calculations don't consider the aquisition cost of the Air portion on AA since they dont participate in the MRP so the cost is much more than your stating.

FT


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## bogey21 (Jun 13, 2013)

I have been negative on Marriott for years from things that happened in the past and currently own no Marriott Weeks or DC Points.  But sitting out in left field and reading comments from current Marriott owners I get the definite feeling that most are satisfied with the new setup and that the level of satisfaction is growing.

George


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## rpgriego (Jun 13, 2013)

FractionalTraveler said:


> I am an AA Executive Platinum for the last 15 years.  You will never get a first class reward ticket on AA for that route in July at 125K AA points.  Try more like 150K-200K per seat.  Oh and I suppose you go on vacation alone?  else you will need to double down on your point requirements.
> 
> Hate to burst your bubble but American Airlines stopped participating in the Marriott Rewards Program 3 years ago (July 1, 2010), so your all out of luck with AA.



I redeem for me. Each buddy redeems for himself, my sister redeems for herself and my parents redeem for two. Yep, we are all MVC owners.

I've secured two FC tickets TWICE for my parents on that route. BUT, I called a year ahead for them. Well not a year, but the required time to be first. That said, my sister didn't get FC.

I have one-million USAirways miles pending conversion into my lifetime Gold AAdvantage account. Yeah, I'm waiting for the frequent flyer accounts to merge before redeeming any miles.

It will be interesting to see how AAdvantage rates them towards elevating me to lifetime Platinum status. With USAirways management taking charge the buzz is they will honor them as qualified miles. I just can't see that as a good business decision. That said, my buddies keep getting elevated to Platinum on a complimentary basis. Pays to be connected to a film studio. lol...


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## dioxide45 (Jun 13, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> So a FIRST Class ticket in July LAX to Rome on AA is not worth $9,000 (First Mile Saver award= 125,000 AAdvantage miles) because of a 12-14 hour flight? I think the art, history and the all around fun of Rome is worth a nights sleep, remember the seat turns into a six foot, six inch fully flat bed.
> 
> So for me, every other year I elect MRPs for my DSVI (110,000) and IP (125,000). Every year I can elect for my RP (110,000), but stick with every other year. I never elect MRPs for my Ko Olina because MVC gives me just shy of 6,000 DClub points annually.
> 
> ...



Are you really saving the $5,000 by booking with MRPs if you would never pay cash for the FC ticket? If you didn't have the points, one would probably just pay $1,500 for the economy ticket. So in the end, they really only saved the $1,500 on the flight to get their butt from LAX to Rome. I know I certainly wouldn't pay $9,000 for 12-18 hours of some extra comfort in my life.

Don't get me wrong, MRPs can help people take trips they never have before and travel in style. I just think the "cost savings" tends to be overblown when analyzing the savings one gets from MRPs.


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## puckmanfl (Jun 13, 2013)

good morning...

If the difference between coach and FC is $7500 pp ($9K-$1.5K), I will save the 15K (2 people) and just add a luxury Mediterranean Cruise for 12 days when I get there.  This will take the sting out of flying in "stearage".  If it worked for Jack dawson (Titanic) It can work for me!!!!


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## dioxide45 (Jun 13, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> If the difference between coach and FC is $7500 pp ($9K-$1.5K), I will save the 15K (2 people) and just add a luxury Mediterranean Cruise for 12 days when I get there.  This will take the sting out of flying in "stearage".  If it worked for Jack dawson (Titanic) It can work for me!!!!



I have only flown BC/FL one time. Once for work when they were footin the bill and once on AirTran. While FC was nice, especially flying to India. I have other things I can spend that money on than a few hours of extra comfort. I can also get more free flights out of airline miles by booking economy vs FC.


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## taffy19 (Jun 14, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> If the difference between coach and FC is $7500 pp ($9K-$1.5K), I will save the 15K (2 people) and just add a luxury Mediterranean Cruise for 12 days when I get there. This will take the sting out of flying in "stearage". If it worked for Jack dawson (Titanic) It can work for me!!!!


:rofl: I agree!  :hysterical:


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## pwrshift (Jun 14, 2013)

If you are flying to China, Australia, and Europe or anywhere where you'd have a long overnight flight I think you would really appreciate Business Class...Plus the require increase in points over economy is far less than the increase in dollar cost.

Brian


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## jimf41 (Jun 14, 2013)

pwrshift said:


> If you are flying to China, Australia, and Europe or anywhere where you'd have a long overnight flight I think you would really appreciate Business Class...Plus the require increase in points over economy is far less than the increase in dollar cost.
> 
> Brian



I agree completely. My previous employer used to fly me all over the place in some pretty uncomfortable seats. If it's more than four hours it's BC/FC or I stay home. You can't put a price on personal creature comforts.


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## puckmanfl (Jun 14, 2013)

good evening....

I agree 100% with Brian... If I can snag the FC flight for double points of "stearage" I will do it in a heart beat (if I have the points).  However, forking out  6 times the dollars for FC doesn't work for me... I look at it this way...I take the difference in price $9000-$1500  $7500 round trip  10 hour flight 20 hours for round trip.  $350 /hour to sit cramped...Will do it all day... Have to make $500 /hr to clear $350.  For the round trip going coach, I would rather spent the $15k on a cruise for 2, when I get there...


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## chunkygal (Jun 14, 2013)

I owned Disney Vacation first and loved the point system. At the time we bought DVC they only had 3 resorts with no plans to build more, so we bought MVC for the quality and number of location options. I bought a high value Hawaii week, because it offered me the most "trading power" as I saw it at the time (Marriott reward points, 2 weeks at Hilton head for each week traded to II). even with the skim, we can now do just about anything with the points. I was thrilled with the introduction of the points system, wish it had always been this way, but wish it had been implemented a bit differently or was as easy to understand as the DVC system. 
For Instance, I would have happily just traded my "week" for permanent points. trying to keep track of the dual rules,multiple deadlines, and all is confusing and I have made mistakes.
I am glad to have found TUG, vacation point exchange website...
My family has had great vacations and memories to last a few lifetimes through MVC and while I wish I had known about buying resale,I don't regret it. I have paid stupid tax before(and probably will again) that didn't have the good times and fun that has resulted form this mistake.


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## pwrshift (Jun 15, 2013)

pwrshift said:


> If you are flying to China, Australia, and Europe or anywhere where you'd have a long overnight flight I think you would really appreciate Business Class...Plus the require increase in points over economy is far less than the increase in dollar cost.
> 
> Brian



Further to my note above, UA saver *Economy* return flights to Europe take 60,000 FF miles.  *Business/First Class* (on 2 class planes) is 100,000 FF miles....less than double the points for flights that could easily cost 5 times more if paying cash.  

Do the calculations and you'll see it's a huge value (as well as comfort) difference. You also get to go to the lounge areas for drinks, food, even showers...if your flight is delayed.  

As Air Canada is 'Star Alliance' partner to UA and has so many direct flights from the AC Toronto hub, it is a terrific deal...and I use UA miles.

Brian


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## FractionalTraveler (Jun 17, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> I redeem for me. Each buddy redeems for himself, my sister redeems for herself and my parents redeem for two. Yep, we are all MVC owners.
> 
> I've secured two FC tickets TWICE for my parents on that route. BUT, I called a year ahead for them. Well not a year, but the required time to be first. That said, my sister didn't get FC.
> 
> ...




Appears AA is back with MR.  This post reported it today:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1483128&postcount=1

FT


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## henrythefourth (Jun 18, 2013)

*Meh*

Overall, I'm still not excited about the DC program.

I guess it comes down to a matter of lifestyle.  Everyone touts the flexibility, short stays  do not excite me.  Once you subtract a days travel on either side, two or three nights does not a vacation make.

And, yes, I still am a little bitter at Marriott for creating the points program one year after I bought our week from them.  I've learned a lot more since then, but I still do not regret it.  I do lock-off and do MRP exchanges regularly so I did join the club to save on a la carte fees.

Who knows, maybe my feelings will change when my kids are out of school.


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## chunkygal (Jun 19, 2013)

I was disappointed about the transition and I would have been doubly if like Henry I just bought and they probably knew they were going to change it.


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## ciscogizmo1 (Jun 19, 2013)

I've only used the points program a hand full of times.  I do like that I was able to reserve a week at a difficult resort like Marriott's Crystal Shores.  I tried one year earlier to reserve through II and never got a match but with DC I got an instant match.  2nd I like being able to have flexible check-in days.  We stayed at Marriott's Crystal Shores from Wednesday to Wednesday, December 26 to January 2nd.  We would not have been able to go if we were forced into the Friday, Saturday or Sunday check-in.  We also live within driving distance to Tahoe so we enjoy being able to go for a few nights at a time.  Finally, I like that if I don't like using DC I can still use my week the old fashion way.  I still have my weeks that I can reserve.


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## FractionalTraveler (Jun 19, 2013)

ciscogizmo1 said:


> I've only used the points program a hand full of times.  I do like that I was able to reserve a week at a difficult resort like Marriott's Crystal Shores.  I tried one year earlier to reserve through II and never got a match but with DC I got an instant match.  2nd I like being able to have flexible check-in days.  We stayed at Marriott's Crystal Shores from Wednesday to Wednesday, December 26 to January 2nd.  We would not have been able to go if we were forced into the Friday, Saturday or Sunday check-in.  We also live within driving distance to Tahoe so we enjoy being able to go for a few nights at a time.  Finally, I like that if I don't like using DC I can still use my week the old fashion way.  I still have my weeks that I can reserve.



What floor did you have?

Crystal Shores has a lot of unit weeks in the Trust so your chances of getting in using DC points was definitely much higher than II (non-existent).

Crystal Shores only has 67 units available right now so that is usually the limiting factor in getting into this property.


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## WINSLOW (Jun 19, 2013)

So far I really like the DC Points program.  We have only traded in our 3 bedroom @ St Kitts for points to date. It doesn't lock off, so it seems like a huge waste when there's just 3 of us going. A lot of unused space as the units there are huge. 

Have used those points for:
Ritz @ St Thomas (2xs coming up)
Manor Club for 2 days to stop at on the way down to 
Ocean Watch this August (can't wait)
Custom House a couple of Saturdays last summer

We have been lucky enough to get what we wanted 1 st time calling in with no waiting. So for that its been a lot easier than II and the waiting game.

What I don't like (obviously) it the skim, especially since without it we would have been Platinum Plus.  Only 250 Pts away.  If there were no skim we'd have 950 more points if just given the average amount of points in our season.

Or if they have given just a little better amount for the Aruba, seeing that its heavily requested & that Aruba is mostly Legacy, you'd have thought that Marriott would have enticed owners a lot better to trade for points.

I know, if, if ,if. 

Maybe in the future they'll adjust the amount. maybe, maybe, maybe


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## MVCI Customer Advocate (Jun 19, 2013)

*Destination Point Values*

There has been a lot of speculation on whether or not Marriott Vacation Club will increase the number of points required to stay at a resort.  As some TUG members have pointed out  (based on earlier conversations with representatives from Marriott Vacation Club), MVC cannot increase the points required to stay at a resort.  However, balance adjustments can be made per week based on demand. For example, an increase in points to stay during week one would legally require a reduction in points of another week for the same amount in that year.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 19, 2013)

MVCI Customer Advocate said:


> There has been a lot of speculation on whether or not Marriott Vacation Club will increase the number of points required to stay at a resort.  As some TUG members have pointed out  (based on earlier conversations with representatives from Marriott Vacation Club), MVC cannot increase the points required to stay at a resort.  However, balance adjustments can be made per week based on demand. For example, an increase in points to stay during week one would legally require a reduction in points of another week for the same amount in that year.



It's very nice to see you here; it's always good to be given an official statement.

I think what you're saying is that any "balance adjustments" must be performed within the individual resort calendars.  To be completely clear, can you confirm that increases of certain intervals at one resort CANNOT be offset by decreases at another?  Thanks, again.


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## rpgriego (Jun 19, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> It's very nice to see you here; it's always good to be given an official statement.
> 
> I think what you're saying is that any "balance adjustments" must be performed within the individual resort calendars.  To be completely clear, can you confirm that increases of certain intervals at one resort CANNOT be offset by decreases at another?  Thanks, again.



Careful... the statement by the CAdvocate was NOT an official statement. It was clarification to an on-going timeline. 

The DClub's R&Rs documents contain the official statements.


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## GregT (Jun 19, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> It's very nice to see you here; it's always good to be given an official statement.



I agree -- I am happy to see them comment, irrespective of whether it is official or not.  

Best,

Greg


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## SueDonJ (Jun 19, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> Careful... the statement by the CAdvocate was NOT an official statement. It was clarification to an on-going timeline.
> 
> The DClub's R&Rs documents contain the official statements.



Rpgriego, we have some history (granted, very little) with TUG user MVCI Customer Advocate.  I have no doubt that Marriott execs in the Customer Advocacy office empower whoever accesses the TUG account to speak on behalf of the company in a quasi-official voice.  Although this medium is used very infrequently by that office, I take what's posted here by MVCI Customer Advocate as an official statement (similar to what's "officially" posted to flyertalk.com by that forum's user, Marriott Concierge.)

It would not make ANY sense at all for that Marriott office to open a TUG account and then post erroneous information to the site, especially when you consider that they choose sparingly which TUG discussions might warrant an official statement.  Considering also that the governing documents of MVW's Destination Club program appear to support the limited statement that they've voluntarily placed in this thread, I think the information is legitimate and can be trusted.  Of course you're correct - the governing docs are the be-all and end-all if/when we or Marriott challenge information.  But TUG isn't a legal setting and they're not required to engage with Owners/Members here.  It still wouldn't help them one bit to post incorrect information to TUG.

By the way, if history is repeated here, they probably will not be back to answer any further questions asked.  Doesn't matter - I'm in favor of them participating on TUG in whatever limited capacity they choose.  Every little bit helps.


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## rpgriego (Jun 19, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> Rpgriego, we have some history (granted, very little) with TUG user MVCI Customer Advocate.  I have no doubt that Marriott execs in the Customer Advocacy office empower whoever accesses the TUG account to speak on behalf of the company in a quasi-official voice.  Although this medium is used very infrequently by that office, I take what's posted here by MVCI Customer Advocate as an official statement (similar to what's "officially" posted to flyertalk.com by that forum's user, Marriott Concierge.)
> 
> It would not make ANY sense at all for that Marriott office to open a TUG account and then post erroneous information to the site, especially when you consider that they choose sparingly which TUG discussions might warrant an official statement.  Considering also that the governing documents of MVW's Destination Club program appear to support the limited statement that they've voluntarily placed in this thread, I think the information is legitimate and can be trusted.  Of course you're correct - the governing docs are the be-all and end-all if/when we or Marriott challenge information.  But TUG isn't a legal setting and they're not required to engage with Owners/Members here.  It still wouldn't help them one bit to post incorrect information to TUG.
> 
> By the way, if history is repeated here, they probably will not be back to answer any further questions asked.  Doesn't matter - I'm in favor of them participating on TUG in whatever limited capacity they choose.  Every little bit helps.



We agree " the governing docs" are the official word. And I agree with you that any clarification from the CAdvocacy Dept. is always welcomed.


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## MVCI Customer Advocate (Jun 19, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> It's very nice to see you here; it's always good to be given an official statement.
> 
> I think what you're saying is that any "balance adjustments" must be performed within the individual resort calendars.  To be completely clear, can you confirm that increases of certain intervals at one resort CANNOT be offset by decreases at another?  Thanks, again.



 That is correct.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> Careful... the statement by the CAdvocate was NOT an official statement. It was clarification to an on-going timeline.
> 
> The DClub's R&Rs documents contain the official statements.



I guess it is an official statement on how they interpret the R&R documents. About as good as it wil get I suppose.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 19, 2013)

MVCI Customer Advocate said:


> That is correct.



Thank you.  

IMO that takes care of THAT discussion - I think we can safely say that "inflationary" increases (similar to the routine across-the-board increases in the MRP program) can't/won't happen to the DC Points Charts.


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## rpgriego (Jun 19, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> I guess it is an official statement on how they interpret the R&R documents. About as good as it wil get I suppose.



Here's what a buddy in our legal department said regarding using the term "official"...

Who was the person posting? As in name, title, contact info.

Did they clearly state, I'm speaking on behalf of Marriott...

I said no. He looked at me, chuckled and said, stop reading blogs at work. Stressing blogs.

I always say...
Two legal opinions are better than one. Anyone have another lawyer to ask?


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> Here's what a buddy in our legal department said regarding using the term "official"...
> 
> Who was the person posting? As in name, title, contact info.
> 
> ...



Again, as I said, as good as it will get. I didn't say it was perfect. Worth what we pay for it.


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## rpgriego (Jun 19, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> Again, as I said, as good as it will get. I didn't say it was perfect. Worth what we pay for it.



My point was addressing the term "official". I would never want someone to read the timeline and assume it was "official".

That said, has anyone tackled the R&Rs to find the section that states what the CAdvocate posted?


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## puckmanfl (Jun 19, 2013)

good evening

Sue,

not worried about inflationary increases because points are tied into real estate and by law have to be constant across entire system, and possibly within individual resorts.  

I am very concerned about inflationary decreases regarding points given to Legacy members for relinquishing their units (skim increase).  The Points given  Legacy weeks owners can be decreased as these are just currency in an exchange system and are not actually bound to real estate....


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> My point was addressing the term "official". I would never want someone to read the timeline and assume it was "official".
> 
> That said, has anyone tackled the R&Rs to find the section that states what the CAdvocate posted?



From everything that we have been able to decern, they are free to allocate points across all resorts. So they could increase points at one resort and lower them at another. It is a single trust, unlike DVC where each resort is it's own trust. So as long as the total points within the trust are allocated across all the resorts, then they are within the law.

So if they all of a sudden found that there was so much demand for Orlando, they could increase the points there and take them away from the Hawaii resorts. Though I expect for accounting purposes it is easier to have them allocated among each resort and only balance demand at each resort as MVCI Customer Advocate indicated.


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## rpgriego (Jun 19, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> From everything that we have been able to decern, they are free to allocate points across all resorts. So they could increase points at one resort and lower them at another. It is a single trust, unlike DVC where each resort is it's own trust. So as long as the total points within the trust are allocated across all the resorts, then they are within the law.
> 
> So if they all of a sudden found that there was so much demand for Orlando, they could increase the points there and take them away from the Hawaii resorts. Though I expect for accounting purposes it is easier to have them allocated among each resort and only balance demand at each resort as MVCI Customer Advocate indicated.



After reading your post it differs from CAdvocate. So any idea where I could find the definitive word in the R&Rs? I totally dig DClub is just like DVC in this area, but want to confirm its resort based reallocation, if it occurs, not trust based.


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## rpgriego (Jun 19, 2013)

puckmanfl said:


> good evening
> 
> Sue,
> 
> ...



AWESOME POV!

I really think use-point reallocation and villa relinquish-points should be the TWO main issues being researched/resolved. Are the DClub's R&Rs online?


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## SueDonJ (Jun 19, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> Here's what a buddy in our legal department said regarding using the term "official"...
> 
> Who was the person posting? As in name, title, contact info.
> 
> ...





rpgriego said:


> My point was addressing the term "official". I would never want someone to read the timeline and assume it was "official". ...



Good gravy.  If you're looking for a statement from Marriott Legal this is the LAST place you'll find it.  In fact, I'd guess that they wouldn't provide a statement to anybody unless they're compelled to do so.  It's just not going to happen here.

But if you're looking for a statement that can reasonably be assumed to have come from Marriott's Customer Advocacy department, and is an indication of how that office interprets Marriott's position based on a working relationship with all facets of MVW, posts here on TUG from user MVCI Customer Advocate are about as "official" as you're going to get.  It's good enough for me that TUG Admin and the other moderators are as convinced as need be that the account is maintained by a Marriott representative, and a few of us have confirmed in telephone conversations with that office that this is a legitimate CA resource.  

Anybody who needs further authenticity of the TUG account in question, or confirmation of the information provided through the account, is free to contact Customer Advocacy.  This is the contact information they've provided, which, coincidentally, includes the same email address from which their TUG account was established and is maintained:


> Marriott Vacation Club Corporate Office
> Customer Advocacy
> 800 936 6824
> customer.advocacy@vacationclub.com
> Hours: 8:30 AM - 5:30 PM EST (Monday - Friday)





rpgriego said:


> That said, has anyone tackled the R&Rs to find the section that states what the CAdvocate posted?



Yes, many of us, many times since the DC inception, which is why the fact that there is related governing docs language was referenced earlier in the thread.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 19, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> From everything that we have been able to decern, they are free to allocate points across all resorts. So they could increase points at one resort and lower them at another. It is a single trust, unlike DVC where each resort is it's own trust. So as long as the total points within the trust are allocated across all the resorts, then they are within the law.
> 
> So if they all of a sudden found that there was so much demand for Orlando, they could increase the points there and take them away from the Hawaii resorts. Though I expect for accounting purposes it is easier to have them allocated among each resort and only balance demand at each resort as MVCI Customer Advocate indicated.



I don't think so, not according to MVCI CA's second post today.  According to that, increases in the Points Chart at one resort cannot be offset by decreases at another.

The DC Trust docs aren't as easily obtained as the Enrollment docs but what we were able to find led to the assumption that increases must be offset by decreases.  It was the question of whether that had to happen within the individual resort Points Charts or across all Trust intervals that remained, and today's posts from CA definitively answered that nagging question.  IMO, of course.

There is still the fact that the allotments given for enrolled Weeks are not guaranteed in any way, shape or form.  The docs make it abundantly clear that those can and probably will be changed from time to time.  I don't think we need CA to confirm that info.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> I don't think so, not according to MVCI CA's second post today.  According to that, increases in the Points Chart at one resort cannot be offset by decreases at another.
> 
> The DC Trust docs aren't as easily obtained as the Enrollment docs but what we were able to find led to the assumption that increases must be offset by decreases.  It was the question of whether that had to happen within the individual resort Points Charts or across all Trust intervals that remained, and today's posts from CA definitively answered that nagging question.  IMO, of course.



I agree with you based on the statements made by the MVCI Customer Advocate. My post however was based on my interpretation of how the trust operates as it is a single trust. I don't think there is anything clear cut in the documentation. Though as a single trust there really isn't anything that I am aware of that would stop them from re-balancing across resorts, though if they do that or not is up to them.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 19, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> AWESOME POV!
> 
> I really think use-point reallocation and villa relinquish-points should be the TWO main issues being researched/resolved. Are the DClub's R&Rs online?



As an Owner of Enrolled Weeks you can access the related governing docs by signing in to your my-vacationclub.com account.  Click on any of the "Enroll Now" links, then check "I understand" and click "Enroll Now" (as if you're newly enrolling, but of course you're not.)  The links to each of the docs will be at the bottom of the next screen.

As a DC Trust Member you should have copies of any other related docs which should have been provided to you at the time of purchase.  If not, I'd guess that Owner Services would provide you with them as soon as you ask - that was their practice back when Weeks were the only game in town, anyway.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 19, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> I agree with you based on the statements made by the MVCI Customer Advocate. My post however was based on my interpretation of how the trust operates as it is a single trust. I don't think there is anything clear cut in the documentation. Though as a single trust there really isn't anything that I am aware of that would stop them from re-balancing across resorts, though if they do that or not is up to them.



That was why I specifically used the word, "CANNOT" in my question, as opposed to, "WILL NOT."  I really don't think that CA would have answered as definitively as they did if there was any question that it's simply a matter of interpretation.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2013)

Okay, here is what I could find in the Multisite POS. I think the second paragraph is key.



> c. Points. For administrative convenience in the operation of the Trust Plan and to assist in the determination of the respective rights of Beneficiaries to enjoy the benefits of ownership of Interests in the Trust Plan, Developer and the Board established a reservation system that utilizes Point allocations for the reservation of all Use Periods. Developer will ascribe Points to each Interest and, upon conveyance of an Interest, the number of Points ascribed to the Interest will be noted on the deed for such Interest. Each Use Year, the Association Delegee will credit each Beneficiary in the reservation system with the number of Points reflected by the deed(s) conveying the Beneficiary's Interests to the Beneficiary. Such Points represent the reservation power of the Beneficiary's Interests in relation to the other Interests in the Trust Plan, as more fully described in the Reservation Procedures. The annual allocation of Points is known as the Distribution. When confirming a reservation, Points will be deducted from the Points that will expire soonest. With respect to Points with the same expiration date, Points will be deducted in order from the lowest-numbered Interest to the highest- numbered Interest owned by the Beneficiary.
> 
> Subject to the limited calendar adjustments described in this paragraph, any increase or decrease in the number of Points for Use required to reserve a designated Use Period pursuant to Association Delegee's right to amend the Point Schedule as set forth above must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase to the Points for Use for other Use Period(s) occurring during the same year as the designated Use Period. Points for Use for a given calendar year will fluctuate from year to year as a result of the number of weekends that occur during that year, leap years, the occurrence of "Week 53" as defined in the Component Declarations, and which day of the week a holiday occurs. As a result of these fluctuating factors and differing demand which occurs because of the calendar permutations, the number of Points for Use may fluctuate for a given Use Period; provided, however, that the Points for Use for a Use Period in a specific calendar year that has the same factors as another specific calendar year, may only be increased or decreased pursuant to the preceding paragraph. Any modification to the Point Schedule shall not require approval by the Beneficiaries.


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## FractionalTraveler (Jun 19, 2013)

Are we making the assumption that just because someone comes on this site and registers under that name Marriott Customer Advocate that they somehow are someone really knowledgeable about the R&R of the DC program?

I don't think I can be sure of that when they only post 4-5 times in several years.  Can't even be sure its the same individual posting for that matter.

What if they are just a Marriott blogger paid to collect information on social media.  Those positions are typically created for entry level customer relations folks that are not really experienced in the inter-workings of the customer product but are needed to establish a presence.

They tend to be an interface point between the online presence and the real knowledgeable executive staff that set the rules and regulations.

In the Information Technology world we call those level III techs.  We all know that the real subject matter experts are the level I engineers who don't post or answer calls but only respond when their expertise is called upon.

FT


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## FractionalTraveler (Jun 19, 2013)

dioxide45 said:


> Okay, here is what I could find in the Multisite POS. I think the second paragraph is key.



Based upon my interpretation of Dioxide's post, I would have to agree with his point regarding the re-balancing across the entire portfolio not just at a single site.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2013)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Based upon my interpretation of Dioxide's post, I would have to agree with his point regarding the re-balancing across the entire portfolio not just at a single site.



I can't find anything yet that ties re-balancing to within resorts only. It is a 277 page document and I haven't read it word for word. So while the CA may have indicated CANNOT, it may be more a case of WILL NOT.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 19, 2013)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Are we making the assumption that just because someone comes on this site and registers under that name Marriott Customer Advocate that they somehow are someone really knowledgeable about the R&R of the DC program?
> 
> I don't think I can be sure of that when they only post 4-5 times in several years.  Can't even be sure its the same individual posting for that matter.
> 
> ...



These questions have been raised each time MVCI Customer Advocate posts or is mentioned.  The reasons the account is presumed to be a valid Marriott TUG presence are,

- In order to establish a TUG account, you have to provide an email address and then respond through that account to a verification notice.  TUG Admin has confirmed that the email address which was used to establish and is still attached to this TUG user name is "customer.advocacy~AT~vacationclub.com" [change ~AT~ to @, of course.]  That same email address is included in all related Marriott publications as the correct, official contact information for Marriott's Customer Advocacy office.

- The former moderator of this forum, DaveM, had offline conversations with at least one exec in the Customer Advocacy office during which the TUG user name/account was confirmed.  Dave was also advised that the office monitors TUG although the intent in establishing the account was not to become a regular contributor.

- Several TUGgers have had similar telephone and email conversations with reps/execs from that office, during which DaveM's information was re-confirmed.

I've always agreed with Dave that if someone from that office posts to TUG, we can be reasonably certain that it's a deliberate statement by a knowledgeable, authorized rep.  IOW, if the posts are legitimate, they've been properly vetted and they're not from some low-level or no-nothing Marriott lackey.

One way to determine if posts are legitimate is through IP address tracking, which is being done on today's posts from MVCI Customer Advocate.  I'll keep you updated.


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## FractionalTraveler (Jun 19, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> These questions have been raised each time MVCI Customer Advocate posts or is mentioned.  The reasons the account is presumed to be a valid Marriott TUG presence are,
> 
> - In order to establish a TUG account, you have to provide an email address and then respond through that account to a verification notice.  TUG Admin has confirmed that the email address which was used to establish and is still attached to this TUG user name is "customer.advocacy~AT~vacationclub.com" [change ~AT~ to @, of course.]  That same email address is included in all related Marriott publications as the correct, official contact information for Marriott's Customer Advocacy office.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the detailed explanation.


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## rpgriego (Jun 20, 2013)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Are we making the assumption that just because someone comes on this site and registers under that name Marriott Customer Advocate that they somehow are someone really knowledgeable about the R&R of the DC program?
> 
> I don't think I can be sure of that when they only post 4-5 times in several years.  Can't even be sure its the same individual posting for that matter.
> 
> ...



All valid points. And to be honest, someone needs to review the official DClub governing documents and then post page and paragraph as a reference point for others.


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## GregT (Jun 20, 2013)

rpgriego said:


> All valid points. And to be honest, someone needs to review the official DClub governing documents and then post page and paragraph as a reference point for others.



Are you volunteering to update the work done in years past by Dioxide, WindJE, Lawlar, SueDonJ, and me?  Although not a Sticky, it does reside in TUGs innards. 

That would be appreciated.  Thank you.


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