# Marriott / Vistana / Westin merger



## karenmb (Jul 8, 2021)

I just completed a sale presentation at a Marriott timeshare resort. I was told the merger will only benefit Marriott owners. I was told that if you are a Marriott owner you will have the ability to transfer / trade into Westin / Vistana properties. But it will not let  Westin / Vistana book Marriott properties. “Because MARRIOTT bought Westin /Vistana” “We ( Marriott) own them”  ( Westin / Vistana) They we’re displaying a whole video on the NEW properties ( Westin’s) Does anyone have any information regarding how they think the merger might play out. They said it might take place by the end of the year. Thanks


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## cubigbird (Jul 8, 2021)

karenmb said:


> I just completed a sale presentation at a Marriott timeshare resort. I was told the merger will only benefit Marriott owners.



You can stop right there.  Remember this is coming from a timeshares person who is attempting to make a sale and convince you that what you have is inferior.  They know nothing more about a merger than owners.  Nothing is in writing or is known about a new system at this time.

Merger, integration, whatever……it’s still wise to own where you want to travel to.


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## Ken555 (Jul 8, 2021)

Hilarious. Does anyone really believe this?


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## DeniseM (Jul 8, 2021)

He wasn't trying to sell you something by any chance?


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## rcv82 (Jul 8, 2021)

If one applies just a little logic it’s obvious that this is bogus. Marriott may “own” Vistana/Westin/Sheraton brands, but all sold inventory is owned by the OWNERS. MVC owners can only trade into Westin and Sheraton owners’ units to the extent there is a trade the other direction. How they do this (and which owners are eligible) remains to be seen, but the mechanism will have to balance the demand both directions. If it is unattractive to Vistana owners there will be no inventory for MVC owners. 


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## dioxide45 (Jul 8, 2021)

karenmb said:


> But it will *now* let Westin / Vistana book Marriott properties.


Is now supposed to be not?


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## fran (Jul 8, 2021)

karenmb said:


> I just completed a sale presentation at a Marriott timeshare resort. I was told the merger will only benefit Marriott owners. I was told that if you are a Marriott owner you will have the ability to transfer / trade into Westin / Vistana properties. But it will now let  Westin / Vistana book Marriott properties. “Because MARRIOTT bought Westin /Vistana” “We ( Marriott) own them”  ( Westin / Vistana) They we’re displaying a whole video on the NEW properties ( Westin’s) Does anyone have any information regarding how they think the merger might play out. They said it might take place by the end of the year. Thanks


We had our owner's update at WKOR on Monday.  We own OF at WKORN and a Gold week at Mission Hills.  What we were told was that once the merger went through it will be next to impossible to trade our Mission Hills unit for a high demand property at 8 months because we will be competing with all of the Mariott owners.  Admittedly, we have used our Mission Hills unit to trade into Atlantis, Langumar, Kuai and WKOR.  We were told unless we planned to use our Mission Hills unit during the season we owned we were (can't remember if she called me an idiot or stupid) if we didn't pay $24,000 and buy into the Westin Flex plan as we could rent the unit for less than the association dues.  We thanked her and left but still feeling insulted.


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## karenmb (Jul 8, 2021)

fran said:


> We had our owner's update at WKOR on Monday.  We own OF at WKORN and a Gold week at Mission Hills.  What we were told was that once the merger went through it will be next to impossible to trade our Mission Hills unit for a high demand property at 8 months because we will be competing with all of the Mariott owners.  Admittedly, we have used our Mission Hills unit to trade into Atlantis, Langumar, Kuai and WKOR.  We were told unless we planned to use our Mission Hills unit during the season we owned we were (can't remember if she called me an idiot or stupid) if we didn't pay $24,000 and buy into the Westin Flex plan as we could rent the unit for less than the association dues.  We thanked her and left but still feeling insulted.


I am wondering if the reality is going to be that Westin owners with options are going to have a more difficult time due to increase demand 8 months out  with this merger.


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## karenmb (Jul 8, 2021)

rcv82 said:


> If one applies just a little logic it’s obvious that this is bogus. Marriott may “own” Vistana/Westin/Sheraton brands, but all sold inventory is owned by the OWNERS. MVC owners can only trade into Westin and Sheraton owners’ units to the extent there is a trade the other direction. How they do this (and which owners are eligible) remains to be seen, but the mechanism will have to balance the demand both directions. If it is unattractive to Vistana owners there will be no inventory for MVC owners.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Agree, I was hoping someone had some insider knowledge on how it might work. Points to options trades… what will the conversation look like 148,100 Westin options = 5000 Marriott points for trading purpose?


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## jwalk03 (Jul 8, 2021)

karenmb said:


> Agree, I was hoping someone had some insider knowledge on how it might work. Points to options trades… what will the conversation look like 148,100 Westin options = 5000 Marriott points for trading purpose?



Nobody knows yet.  Everyone is anxiously waiting an announcement that is always coming next quarter


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## dioxide45 (Jul 8, 2021)

karenmb said:


> Agree, I was hoping someone had some insider knowledge on how it might work. Points to options trades… what will the conversation look like 148,100 Westin options = 5000 Marriott points for trading purpose?


I doubt anyone with insider knowledge will share it on TUG. Marriott employees are probably forbidden from posting here and if they do, they risk their employment status. We saw similar rumors leading up to the 2010 rollout of the DC program, but no insider knowledge leaked out. Just speculation on how the new program might look. Some was right, but much of it was wrong.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 8, 2021)

jwalk03 said:


> Nobody knows yet.  Everyone is anxiously waiting an announcement that is always coming next quarter


Next quarter? They keep telling us early 2022.


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## DanCali (Jul 8, 2021)

karenmb said:


> I just completed a sale presentation at a Marriott timeshare resort. I was told the merger will only benefit Marriott owners. I was told that if you are a Marriott owner you will have the ability to transfer / trade into Westin / Vistana properties. But it will now let  Westin / Vistana book Marriott properties. “Because MARRIOTT bought Westin /Vistana” “We ( Marriott) own them”  ( Westin / Vistana) They we’re displaying a whole video on the NEW properties ( Westin’s) Does anyone have any information regarding how they think the merger might play out. They said it might take place by the end of the year. Thanks



I don't think this is necessarily all lies. I can try to speculate on how the new system might work and how to translate the sales rep's statements...

My personal opinion is that the Marriott system will be an another exchange company Vistana owners can pay to enroll in (like non-mandatory resort owners pay II) and will likely have another annual fee. Perhaps this will be open to all at the same price, perhaps only to developer/retro purchasers, perhaps lower price to developer/retro purchasers and steeper price for resales. Vistana owners will be able to trade for Marriott points anytime before 8 months. At 8 months, if they are in VSN, their week is available to VSN owners for VSN trading. So if one owns a WKORV week, you can book it, trade for Marriott points thereby making the WKORV week available to Marriott owners, or wait for 8 months and trade in VSN. In such a system, I translate the sales rep as follows:

*I was told the merger will only benefit Marriott owners *= they would not have to pay anything out of pocket to trade into the new resorts. They would just see the new inventory when Vistana owners trade for DC points.
*I was told that if you are a Marriott owner you will have the ability to transfer / trade into Westin / Vistana properties *= if there is inventory, i.e., Vistana owners trade into DC points instead of Staroptions at 8 months.
*But it will not let  Westin / Vistana book Marriott properties* = unless they pay extra to enroll in the exchange system. Or unless resale owners pay extra to buy points.
*“Because MARRIOTT bought Westin /Vistana” “We ( Marriott) own them”*= this is true.*
They said it might take place by the end of the year * = This is also true. It might... or not...

In the system I describe, a VSN owner who trades for Marriott points at 12 months out makes that week available for Marriott owners at 12 months out. But that's really not different than depositing a week in Interval and having someone on Interval get that week. Does that mean that fewer weeks will be available for VSN trading at 8 months? Probably, because owners will have another exchange company to deposit in. But, conversely, there will also be fewer owners in VSN looking for that VSN exchange inventory (a WKORV owners who exchanges Marriott DC points will not be competing for Harborside or WSJ inventory at 8 months out).

But that's all just speculation...


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## MICROZE (Jul 9, 2021)

karenmb said:


> I just completed a sale presentation at a Marriott timeshare resort. I was told the *merger will only benefit Marriott owners*. I was told that if you are a Marriott owner you will have the ability to transfer / trade into Westin / Vistana properties. But *it will now let  Westin / Vistana book Marriott properties. “Because MARRIOTT bought Westin /Vistana” “We ( Marriott) own them” * ( Westin / Vistana) They we’re displaying a whole video on the NEW properties ( Westin’s) Does anyone have any information regarding how they think the merger might play out. They said it might take place by the end of the year. Thanks


*This is the identical* line we were fed at our presentation at Summit Watch in June.

I asked "how would this be possible if inventory only travelled 1-way", and he explained that Marriott would be using ROFR, Explorer-Collection, Unsold inventory to make Vistana units available to Marriott-Owners.


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## DannyTS (Jul 9, 2021)

Marriott makes a great deal of money by renting their inventory, why would they give away that revenue?


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## karenmb (Jul 9, 2021)

DanCali said:


> I don't think this is necessarily all lies. I can try to speculate on how the new system might work and how to translate the sales rep's statements...
> 
> My personal opinion is that the Marriott system will be an another exchange company Vistana owners can pay to enroll in (like non-mandatory resort owners pay II) and will likely have another annual fee. Perhaps this will be open to all at the same price, perhaps only to developer/retro purchasers, perhaps lower price to developer/retro purchasers and steeper price for resales. Vistana owners will be able to trade for Marriott points anytime before 8 months. At 8 months, if they are in VSN, their week is available to VSN owners for VSN trading. So if one owns a WKORV week, you can book it, trade for Marriott points thereby making the WKORV week available to Marriott owners, or wait for 8 months and trade in VSN. In such a system, I translate the sales rep as follows:
> 
> ...


I appreciate you giving me ( and the rest of this community) a good perspective / comment.  I was hoping for some thoughtful feedback.   Thank you.  Karen


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## karenmb (Jul 9, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Is now supposed to be not?


yes I changed it.  thanks


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## Ty1on (Jul 9, 2021)

MICROZE said:


> *This is the identical* to the line we were fed at our presentation at Summit Watch in June.
> 
> I asked "how would this be possible if inventory only travelled 1-way", and he explained that Marriott would be using ROFR, Explorer-Collection, Unsold inventory to make Vistana units available to Marriott-Owners.



Why would Marriott gift developer-owned points to Marriot owners, or any owners, when there is rental income to be had?


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## Ken555 (Jul 9, 2021)

Once again, we are giving credibility to what the lying sales staff says in order to convince the gullible to buy an overpriced product. Ultimately, Marriott knows that if they reduce the ability to trade with SOs to the point where good customers get upset (keep in mind these are the customers they want to be loyal to them) then they will lose. Fear of losing out on trade ability is a poor way of convincing the majority of owners to not only stay loyal but pay out more to keep what we already have with perhaps minimal enhancements. 

Perhaps the majority of owners are susceptible to such sales tactics as those represented here. If so, and the existing ability to trade relatively easily into other VSN properties diminishes then I have no doubt some of us will sell and move on. Maybe some of us will buy something else on the resale market to compensate for the new Marriott reality…and some of us won’t. 

Regardless, it’s always amusing to me when I read about timeshare sales using fear as the prime motivator to buy. To me, that’s the quickest way to get me to say no. I don’t care what you’re selling…if I’m told to do something or else things will get worse, I just roll my eyes and say “really”, and head to the jacuzzi.


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## daviator (Jul 9, 2021)

I think what they will do is make things even more complicated and confusing for owners, probably by introducing a whole new points layer that sits on top of the existing ownerships somehow.

The more complicated they make it, the more owners will not be able to figure out how to effectively use their ownerships, which results in more unused inventory that Vistana or MVW can monetize.  Some will get fed up and walk away from their ownerships… fantastic!  Vistana takes back the ownership (for free, or maybe a ROFR price) and resells it at full price.

Confused about the new programs?  We'll be glad to help you, just come to an “owner update” where we'll try to solve all of your problems while selling you more.  A more complex program will absolutely drive eyeballs to those sales presentations disguised as opportunities for education.

Of course, if you can’t figure out the complexities of the program and aren’t using your ownership well, that’s your own fault, the program is wonderful!  Or so they will say.

TUG will become even more important than it already is, in helping people navigate and make best use of their ownership(s.)


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## TimeshareMess (Jul 12, 2021)

We have 2 Sheratons - Jensen Beach, 2-bedroom & a 2-bedroom lockoff at Sheraton Vistana Villages in Orlando.  We also have the Marriott Grande Vista and were hoping they were going to merge so we could be at a higher level in Marriott and go into the Trust program.  Is that even a good idea or should we just stay in the Destination Club?  We don't know if the Sheraton will ever merge with the Marriott and we don't know if we should let them take them back but we get nothing in return.  Can someone give us some valuable advice?  Our kids don't want to be stuck with them when we pass on.


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## kozykritter (Jul 17, 2021)

DanCali said:


> I don't think this is necessarily all lies. I can try to speculate on how the new system might work and how to translate the sales rep's statements...
> 
> My personal opinion is that the Marriott system will be an another exchange company Vistana owners can pay to enroll in (like non-mandatory resort owners pay II) and will likely have another annual fee. Perhaps this will be open to all at the same price, perhaps only to developer/retro purchasers, perhaps lower price to developer/retro purchasers and steeper price for resales. Vistana owners will be able to trade for Marriott points anytime before 8 months. At 8 months, if they are in VSN, their week is available to VSN owners for VSN trading. So if one owns a WKORV week, you can book it, trade for Marriott points thereby making the WKORV week available to Marriott owners, or wait for 8 months and trade in VSN. In such a system, I translate the sales rep as follows:
> 
> ...


Your speculation makes sense because unlike the US treasury printing money, there is a finite amount of inventory in the entire system broken up into different pots/trusts and it is all owned by someone. Legally in the end it all has to balance or there will be breach of contract lawsuits aplenty. Therefore if Marriott owners get access to a pot of Vistanta inventory and remove some by making reservations, the inventory in the Marriott system they abandon has to be made available the other way to Vistana owners for the transaction to balance. The detail of how all the access will occur is the big mystery! A couple of years ago Marriott did an investor update posted on here that showed Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex, VSN and MVC all operating as separate spheres with a new type of currency system to be created (and sold in some fashion, of course!) to provide cross access between them.


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## Mowogo (Jul 18, 2021)

kozykritter said:


> Your speculation makes sense because unlike the US treasury printing money, there is a finite amount of inventory in the entire system broken up into different pots/trusts and it is all owned by someone. Legally in the end it all has to balance or there will be breach of contract lawsuits aplenty. Therefore if Marriott owners get access to a pot of Vistanta inventory and remove some by making reservations, the inventory in the Marriott system they abandon has to be made available the other way to Vistana owners for the transaction to balance. The detail of how all the access will occur is the big mystery! A couple of years ago Marriott did an investor update posted on here that showed Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex, VSN and MVC all operating as separate spheres with a new type of currency system to be created (and sold in some fashion, of course!) to provide cross access between them.


One consistent thing seems to be the new dividing line being flex points being the product being marketed as being exchangeable across brands, and if you start drawing down VSN at the same time you make flex compelling for more owners. Main reason you include Flex in the exchange is to provide a good quantity of inventory at the start for exchanging across brands so that MVC can exchange in and a decent pool exchanging out.  Make the exchange program that includes MVC attractive enough, then the inventory never filters down to VSN and the value of legacy weeks decreases as VSN becomes primarily legacy developer and mandatory weeks with inventory from Flex only coming in as an exchange into one of the remaining units in VSN.


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## THSMTHS (Jul 18, 2021)

kozykritter said:


> Your speculation makes sense because unlike the US treasury printing money, there is a finite amount of inventory in the entire system broken up into different pots/trusts and it is all owned by someone. Legally in the end it all has to balance or there will be breach of contract lawsuits aplenty. Therefore if Marriott owners get access to a pot of Vistanta inventory and remove some by making reservations, the inventory in the Marriott system they abandon has to be made available the other way to Vistana owners for the transaction to balance. The detail of how all the access will occur is the big mystery! A couple of years ago Marriott did an investor update posted on here that showed Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex, VSN and MVC all operating as separate spheres with a new type of currency system to be created (and sold in some fashion, of course!) to provide cross access between them.


There is definitely a finite amount of inventory in the Westin Flex program.  About a month ago we were told, that the Flex program will not become fully funded as the originally intended, due to the merger of Marriott and Vistana. For the program to work, Vistana owners had to put their "deeded weeks" into the Flex program. That is no longer happening from what we were told.


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## CPNY (Jul 18, 2021)

THSMTHS said:


> There is definitely a finite amount of inventory in the Westin Flex program.  About a month ago we were told, that the Flex program will not become fully funded as the originally intended, due to the merger of Marriott and Vistana. For the program to work, Vistana owners had to put their "deeded weeks" into the Flex program. That is no longer happening from what we were told.


It seems like they ended their short lived exit program. I guess they weren’t getting the inventory they hoped for? So if the program isn’t being fully funded, are they scrapping it? This whole thing is a mess! Legacy Weeks, Flex Options, DC, VSN, Home Options what a headache.


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## THSMTHS (Jul 18, 2021)

fran said:


> We had our owner's update at WKOR on Monday.  We own OF at WKORN and a Gold week at Mission Hills.  What we were told was that once the merger went through it will be next to impossible to trade our Mission Hills unit for a high demand property at 8 months because we will be competing with all of the Mariott owners.  Admittedly, we have used our Mission Hills unit to trade into Atlantis, Langumar, Kuai and WKOR.  We were told unless we planned to use our Mission Hills unit during the season we owned we were (can't remember if she called me an idiot or stupid) if we didn't pay $24,000 and buy into the Westin Flex plan as we could rent the unit for less than the association dues.  We thanked her and left but still feeling insulted.





karenmb said:


> I just completed a sale presentation at a Marriott timeshare resort. I was told the merger will only benefit Marriott owners. I was told that if you are a Marriott owner you will have the ability to transfer / trade into Westin / Vistana properties. But it will not let  Westin / Vistana book Marriott properties. “Because MARRIOTT bought Westin /Vistana” “We ( Marriott) own them”  ( Westin / Vistana) They we’re displaying a whole video on the NEW properties ( Westin’s) Does anyone have any information regarding how they think the merger might play out. They said it might take place by the end of the year. Thanks


So many different stories. We were told that they (sales people) expected the merger to be complete for 2022. One of the things that will need to be done will be to create a common currency. That will include the reassessment of Westin/Sheraton products. Vistana point values do not have the wide range that Marriott products do. This will create some unhappy Westin/Sheraton owners. Currently, deeded owners in the Westin do not have access to inventory of the other Vistana products until 8 mo. from the desired checkin date. Even in the Flex program that was sometimes true depending on the resort. For example, when we had Westin Flex, Westin Kierland Villas could not be booked until the 8 mo. window. For there to be inventory available, a deeded owner had to give up their week. My wish is that original owners (both Vistana and Marriott) would have access to inventory, before it is offered to other parties.


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## THSMTHS (Jul 18, 2021)

CPNY said:


> It seems like they ended their short lived exit program. I guess they weren’t getting the inventory they hoped for? So if the program isn’t being fully funded, are they scrapping it? This whole thing is a mess! Legacy Weeks, Flex Options, DC, VSN, Home Options what a headache.


Yes, we were told that they were no longer going to fund the program. It's too bad, because I really liked the progam. They are trying to move owners back into deeded properties. Not sure how I feel about all of the moving around and uncertainty.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 18, 2021)

THSMTHS said:


> There is definitely a finite amount of inventory in the Westin Flex program.  About a month ago we were told, that the Flex program will not become fully funded as the originally intended, due to the merger of Marriott and Vistana. For the program to work, Vistana owners had to put their "deeded weeks" into the Flex program. That is no longer happening from what we were told.


There was a time when Vistana was taking "tradi-ins" of Sheraton and Westin weeks and then them upselling on Flex. They would actually take back your week and then you would get an equivalent number of HomeOptions along with whatever you bought. They were loading the trusts with these weeks. That stopped a couple years ago, but I do beleive it is one of the big reasons we see far less mandatory weeks on the resale market today.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 18, 2021)

CPNY said:


> It seems like they ended their short lived exit program. I guess they weren’t getting the inventory they hoped for? So if the program isn’t being fully funded, are they scrapping it? This whole thing is a mess! Legacy Weeks, Flex Options, DC, VSN, Home Options what a headache.


I beleive they still have their exit program. Vistana/Marriott Vacation Club will still take back weeks for free and no compensation. What I found they did end was the "trade in" program.


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## CPNY (Jul 18, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> I beleive they still have their exit program. Vistana/Marriott Vacation Club will still take back weeks for free and no compensation. What I found they did end was the "trade in" program.


I’ve been hearing the vistana exit webpage hasn’t been up for a bit. I checked today and it’s still not loading. I assumed they halted the program.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 18, 2021)

CPNY said:


> I’ve been hearing the vistana exit webpage hasn’t been up for a bit. I checked today and it’s still not loading. I assumed they halted the program.


They are still listed on ARDA's ResponsibleExit.com site with their email and phone numbers you can call. So I suspect it is still going, their inept IT just can't get the website right.


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## cubigbird (Jul 18, 2021)

THSMTHS said:


> Yes, we were told that they were no longer going to fund the program. It's too bad, because I really liked the progam. They are trying to move owners back into deeded properties. Not sure how I feel about all of the moving around and uncertainty.



If they are no longer funding these flex programs, it will be a matter of time that developer sales runs out of points to sell.  They can’t sell what they don’t have available / sell more points than what’s available inside the trust. I’d be curious to their approach to Aventuras and if they are not planning on funding it further as well.

So then what?  They aren’t developing new properties and locations….inventory overall is not increasing and has not for some time.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jul 18, 2021)

THSMTHS said:


> Yes, we were told that they were no longer going to fund the program. It's too bad, because I really liked the progam. They are trying to move owners back into deeded properties. Not sure how I feel about all of the moving around and uncertainty.



I don't believe this is happening because MVC has moved away from deeded properties. IMO they are in a lull during a changeover. Will know in the next year the direction. In the meantime, I am happy with mandatory deeded weeks.


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## CPNY (Jul 18, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> They are still listed on ARDA's ResponsibleExit.com site with their email and phone numbers you can call. So I suspect it is still going, their inept IT just can't get the website right.


Inept IT is the truth


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## dioxide45 (Jul 18, 2021)

Vistgana last funded the Flex Collection Owners Association Inc (Westin Flex) trust in September 2020. The last set of Flex Vacations Owners Association Inc (Sheraton Flex) funding was in January 2020. Of course it has been since the pandemic that Marriott has funded their DC Trust program.


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## cubigbird (Jul 18, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Vistgana last funded the Flex Collection Owners Association Inc (Westin Flex) trust in September 2020. The last set of Flex Vacations Owners Association Inc (Sheraton Flex) funding was in January 2020. Of course it has been since the pandemic that Marriott has funded their DC Trust program.



I wonder why this is?  Are the plans to merge the Flex trusts into DC trust?


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## dioxide45 (Jul 18, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> I wonder why this is?  Are the plans to merge the Flex trusts into DC trust?


Not sure. I suspect they stopped new conveyances because of covid. Though they did convey a bunch of Westin flex in September. There could be plans to stand up a new trust. Though I haven't found any recordings in Orange County Florida to indicate one has been created.


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## remowidget (Jul 19, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> There was a time when Vistana was taking "tradi-ins" of Sheraton and Westin weeks and then them upselling on Flex. They would actually take back your week and then you would get an equivalent number of HomeOptions along with whatever you bought. They were loading the trusts with these weeks. That stopped a couple years ago, but I do beleive it is one of the big reasons we see far less mandatory weeks on the resale market today.


They still let you requalify resales, but claim that is coming to an end. They have been claiming that for a long time. A friend got an offer to requalify his Kaanapali unit this May, but there is no point for him as it is mandatory and he want to spend that time in Maui anyways.


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## daviator (Jul 19, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> There was a time when Vistana was taking "tradi-ins" of Sheraton and Westin weeks and then them upselling on Flex. They would actually take back your week and then you would get an equivalent number of HomeOptions along with whatever you bought. They were loading the trusts with these weeks. That stopped a couple years ago, but I do beleive it is one of the big reasons we see far less mandatory weeks on the resale market today.


I'm surprised they ended this because it seems like a real winner of a program for the company.  Every time they take back a mandatory week and put it in the Flex trust, they are permanently removing it from the resale market and that seems like something that's very much in their interest to do.  Not only do they get to make a big margin on the sale of the Flex points that week represents, but they've then taken a valuable resale week and made it pretty much worthless for resale.  So if the buy of those Flex Points decides they want out sometime in the future, their easiest choice will be to use the exit program and just deed the points back to Vistana/Marriott, who then resells them again for a big profit.


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## rcv82 (Jul 20, 2021)

daviator said:


> I'm surprised they ended this because it seems like a real winner of a program for the company. Every time they take back a mandatory week and put it in the Flex trust, they are permanently removing it from the resale market and that seems like something that's very much in their interest to do. Not only do they get to make a big margin on the sale of the Flex points that week represents, but they've then taken a valuable resale week and made it pretty much worthless for resale. So if the buy of those Flex Points decides they want out sometime in the future, their easiest choice will be to use the exit program and just deed the points back to Vistana/Marriott, who then resells them again for a big profit.



I believe they are still doing this (at least they were last November), but probably only with developer purchases. And it didn’t necessarily have to be for Flex. They will give you what you paid on a trade in as long as you bring $10k to the table. This will also let you re-quality a property in VSN and count for status, with $5k for each additional property. 


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## Grandma2016 (Jul 20, 2021)

rcv82 said:


> I believe they are still doing this (at least they were last November), but probably only with developer purchases. And it didn’t necessarily have to be for Flex. They will give you what you paid on a trade in as long as you bring $10k to the table. This will also let you re-quality a property in VSN and count for status, with $5k for each additional property.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


This is what we were offered.   10k to requalify our week 52s at KOR.  We are already 5 star elite so we seen no benefit.  Then he offered 1 BR OV South 23k and requalify 2 of our 3 week 52s.  He said this would give us 2 titanium statuses.  We said no thanks.


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## jackball (Jul 20, 2021)

We recently attended an owners update at Nanea.  The salesperson told us to never give up our deeded VOI for flex.  She said she was still selling deeds but that would change exclusively to flex in early 2022.


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## mdditt2000 (Jul 20, 2021)

Also attended owners update this week. No new information on the merge. But they mentioned multiple times inventory was low. Maybe that’s deeds. Honestly they had nothing to sell


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## daviator (Jul 20, 2021)

jackball said:


> We recently attended an owners update at Nanea.  The salesperson told us to never give up our deeded VOI for flex.  She said she was still selling deeds but that would change exclusively to flex in early 2022.


Maybe you found the only honest timeshare salesperson out there!  I think that was good advice.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 21, 2021)

rcv82 said:


> I believe they are still doing this (at least they were last November), but probably only with developer purchases. And it didn’t necessarily have to be for Flex. They will give you what you paid on a trade in as long as you bring $10k to the table. This will also let you re-quality a property in VSN and count for status, with $5k for each additional property.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


This is different than what I was talking about. A couple years ago they were taking direct trade-ins (take backs) of Vistana weeks. They would give you what was paid for the week originally, either by you or the original buyer (on a resale). That credit would go toward a new purchase of pure flex. What you are referring to is simply retroing or requalifying. They don't take back the deeded week. It just becomes eligible for VSN and other network privileges.


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## rcv82 (Jul 21, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> This is different than what I was talking about. A couple years ago they were taking direct trade-ins (take backs) of Vistana weeks. They would give you what was paid for the week originally, either by you or the original buyer (on a resale). That credit would go toward a new purchase of pure flex. What you are referring to is simply retroing or requalifying. They don't take back the deeded week. It just becomes eligible for VSN and other network privileges.



I’ve done both a retro keeping my deeded week and turning it in for an “upgrade”. It’s a good way to get rid of a mistake. I was the original purchaser though. I’ve never tried to turn in a resale. I’ve actually both turned in a deeded week for Flex, and Flex for a deeded week. (Long story as to why.) In both cases I re-qualified resale weeks. Bottom line: In my experience if they have the inventory they will trade pretty much any way you want as long as you put at least $10k in. 


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## Mowogo (Jul 21, 2021)

daviator said:


> Maybe you found the only honest timeshare salesperson out there!  I think that was good advice.


You can occasionally find them.  Actually had one at Wyndham Waikiki Beach Walk when I did an RCI exchange for a Work from Hawaii week last year.  When you can get them the "presentation" is much easier.


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## TJALB (Jul 23, 2021)

remowidget said:


> They still let you requalify resales, but claim that is coming to an end. They have been claiming that for a long time. A friend got an offer to requalify his Kaanapali unit this May, but there is no point for him as it is mandatory and he want to spend that time in Maui anyways.


What exactly does “requalify” mean to someone that purchased a Manditory unit from the resale market? Thanks!


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## rcv82 (Jul 23, 2021)

TJALB said:


> What exactly does “requalify” mean to someone that purchased a Manditory unit from the resale market? Thanks!



It has minor benefit for a mandatory resort but still has a couple benefits, specifically 1. You can trade for Bonvoy points, and 2. It counts toward elite status. Once requalified it is basically like it was purchased from the developer. (I know the Bonvoy point thing is not worth much with the devaluation Marriott has done. It used to be not a bad deal in the old Starwood days.)

Finally, it is possible (but by no means certain) that fully qualified properties will play better in a merged system with MVC. 

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## kozykritter (Jul 23, 2021)

You also get Bonvoy Gold elite status.


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## TJALB (Jul 24, 2021)

kozykritter said:


> You also get Bonvoy Gold elite status.


Any idea what the re-qualification cost would be?  Is it based on what/where you own?  I own 2 annual WKORVN 2 bedrooms; just in case they base it on the property.
Thanks!


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## byeloe (Jul 24, 2021)

$10000 for the first and $5000 for additional weeks, at least it was in January


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## dioxide45 (Jul 24, 2021)

byeloe said:


> $10000 for the first and $5000 for additional weeks, at least it was in January


I think the requirements may be higher if buying in Hawaii. At least they were back when they were selling weeks.


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## byeloe (Jul 24, 2021)

generally not worth requalifying mandatory units


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## Grandma2016 (Jul 25, 2021)

TJALB said:


> Any idea what the re-qualification cost would be?  Is it based on what/where you own?  I own 2 annual WKORVN 2 bedrooms; just in case they base it on the property.
> Thanks!


We just did out update a week ago.  It was 10k per week.


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## Grandma2016 (Jul 25, 2021)

mdditt2000 said:


> Also attended owners update this week. No new information on the merge. But they mentioned multiple times inventory was low. Maybe that’s deeds. Honestly they had nothing to sell
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thats how I felt....not much to sell.


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## controller1 (Jul 25, 2021)

mdditt2000 said:


> Also attended owners update this week. No new information on the merge. But they mentioned multiple times inventory was low. Maybe that’s deeds. Honestly they had nothing to sell





Grandma2016 said:


> Thats how I felt....not much to sell.



Maybe that's why I was able to stay ten days at WRF and not once was asked to attend a presentation!


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## dioxide45 (Jul 25, 2021)

Just attended a presentation today at WKV. Zero and I mean zero pressure. No updates really on any integration other than them saying Bonvoy Titanium to the top level 5* owners. Outside of that, the main pitch was instead of buying WKV resale, buy two SDO True Plat and then come in with $15K in new money for Sheraton Flex. This way you end up spending only about $20K and you get 148.1K X 2 in StarOptions plus the options you get from the developer purchase. Of course the WKV Plat Plus would be able to be resold for about $15K. Not so much for the $15K in Flex.


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## cubigbird (Jul 25, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Just attended a presentation today at WKV. Zero and I mean zero pressure. No updates really on any integration other than them saying Bonvoy Titanium to the top level 5* owners. Outside of that, the main pitch was instead of buying WKV resale, buy two SDO True Plat and then come in with $15K in new money for Sheraton Flex. This way you end up spending only about $20K and you get 148.1K X 2 in StarOptions plus the options you get from the developer purchase. Of course the WKV Plat Plus would be able to be resold for about $15K. Not so much for the $15K in Flex.



We have found WKV to be low pressure and professional.  I also find the sales staff there know their stuff.  I find it interesting and surprising that inventory overall is low.  It is true that there are no new resorts so inventory is finite.  Maybe this is a sign an integration announcement is near?  

5* to Titanium would be a nice upgrade.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 25, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> We have found WKV to be low pressure and professional.  I also find the sales staff there know their stuff.  I find it interesting and surprising that inventory overall is low.  It is true that there are no new resorts so inventory is finite.  Maybe this is a sign an integration announcement is near?
> 
> 5* to Titanium would be a nice upgrade.


Certainly no new resorts in the near future. Vistana did convey a bunch of inventory last September and February to their Flex trusts. I think Sheraton Kauai came online in the trust, so a bunch more Sheraton Flex to feed the trust. I am not sure where Westin Flex inventory is coming from except perhaps deedbacks and foreclosures.


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## cubigbird (Jul 25, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Certainly no new resorts in the near future. Vistana did convey a bunch of inventory last September and February to their Flex trusts. I think Sheraton Kauai came online in the trust, so a bunch more Sheraton Flex to feed the trust. I am not sure where Westin Flex inventory is coming from except perhaps deedbacks and foreclosures.



Those flex conveyances were some time ago and they have been selling points since.  At some point the sales well runs pretty dry.  I know at places like WKV they can (and are still willing to) sell deeds.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 25, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> Those flex conveyances were some time ago and they have been selling points since.  At some point the sales well runs pretty dry.  I know at places like WKV they can (and are still willing to) sell deeds.


Yeah, I think they are banking on a combined trust in 2021. I still haven't found any sign of one being recorded in Orange County Florida.


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## cubigbird (Jul 26, 2021)

It’ll be interesting what a combined product looks like.  Perhaps a trust of trusts?


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## Sicnarf (Jul 28, 2021)

An extreme ultimate trust


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## PcflEZFlng (Jul 28, 2021)

Sicnarf said:


> An extreme ultimate trust


Sounds like something you get at the drive-thru!


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## dioxide45 (Jul 28, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> It’ll be interesting what a combined product looks like.  Perhaps a trust of trusts?


I am not sure if they can do something similar with Westin and Sheraton Flex like they did with their Asia Pacific pacific program where they instilled a permanent recalculation of point values. I don't remember the conversion there, perhaps it was 10:1, but they simply told people who had 40,000 AP points, you now have 4,000 and they also modified the point values in Asia Pacific. AP predates the Marriott DC program.


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## jwalke11 (Jul 30, 2021)

kozykritter said:


> You also get Bonvoy Gold elite status.


Has anyone ever actually gotten any benefit from Gold elite Bonvoy status?  Other than a few bonus points?  I have never been upgraded - not even after I became permanent Titanium status.  I finally got some suite nights so I'll have to see if I can actually use those.


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## jwalke11 (Jul 30, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Not sure. I suspect they stopped new conveyances because of covid. Though they did convey a bunch of Westin flex in September. There could be plans to stand up a new trust. Though I haven't found any recordings in Orange County Florida to indicate one has been created.


A friend of mine who used to sell for Vistana in Orlando said that Marriott had applied for permission to combine the trusts.  Don't know if it was approved though or which trusts.  Seems it would be hard to do anything with Adventuras unless it is combined with other Mexico properties.


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## DavidnRobin (Jul 30, 2021)

jwalke11 said:


> Has anyone ever actually gotten any benefit from Gold elite Bonvoy status? Other than a few bonus points? I have never been upgraded - not even after I became permanent Titanium status. I finally got some suite nights so I'll have to see if I can actually use those.



I use to as SPG Gold - but that faded away.


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## daviator (Jul 31, 2021)

jwalke11 said:


> A friend of mine who used to sell for Vistana in Orlando said that Marriott had applied for permission to combine the trusts.  Don't know if it was approved though or which trusts.  Seems it would be hard to do anything with Adventuras unless it is combined with other Mexico properties.


Who would they ask for permission?  They would need permission from the OWNERS of the trust, and I don’t think they — in some cases that's we – have been asked.


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## cubigbird (Jul 31, 2021)

daviator said:


> Who would they ask for permission?  They would need permission from the OWNERS of the trust, and I don’t think they — in some cases that's we – have been asked.


I don’t think they need our permission.  Owners aren’t trustees of the trust.


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## Mowogo (Jul 31, 2021)

cubigbird said:


> It’ll be interesting what a combined product looks like.  Perhaps a trust of trusts?


Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Flex trusts of Vistana being transferred from using VSN to using Destination Club.  Marriott needs Vistana resorts easily accessible because from a marketing standpoint they need seamless integration between brands to mirror the integration found with the hotel chains which they license the names from.  I also know that they have consistently been telling people that Flex will be the only way to access the new system, and that is what convinced my parents to "upgrade" their purchase to Sheraton Flex.  They also need an easy way to get a good volume of inventory exchanging in Destination Club and the only way to get that volume is to get Flex using Destination Club while also making VSN less useful to get Mandatory and legacy weeks owners through inventory starvation to create incentives to upgrade into developer inventory.


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## controller1 (Jul 31, 2021)

jwalke11 said:


> Has anyone ever actually gotten any benefit from Gold elite Bonvoy status?  Other than a few bonus points?  I have never been upgraded - not even after I became permanent Titanium status.  I finally got some suite nights so I'll have to see if I can actually use those.



It would be difficult to get much from Marriott Bonvoy Gold status. Under Starwood, SPG Gold status came with some benefits that were actually honored by the hotel properties. Since the merger Marriott has gutted Gold status and doesn't do a very good job holding the hotel properties to honoring the benefits of the Bonvoy program at any level with the exception of Ambassador.


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## Mowogo (Jul 31, 2021)

controller1 said:


> It would be difficult to get much from Marriott Bonvoy Gold status. Under Starwood, SPG Gold status came with some benefits that were actually honored by the hotel properties. Since the merger Marriott has gutted Gold status and doesn't do a very good job holding the hotel properties to honoring the benefits of the Bonvoy program at any level with the exception of Ambassador.


Gold status is better than nothing, but is also very weak compared to mid tier status with Hilton and Hyatt.


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## CPNY (Jul 31, 2021)

Mowogo said:


> Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Flex trusts of Vistana being transferred from using VSN to using Destination Club.  Marriott needs Vistana resorts easily accessible because from a marketing standpoint they need seamless integration between brands to mirror the integration found with the hotel chains which they license the names from.  I also know that they have consistently been telling people that Flex will be the only way to access the new system, and that is what convinced my parents to "upgrade" their purchase to Sheraton Flex.  They also need an easy way to get a good volume of inventory exchanging in Destination Club and the only way to get that volume is to get Flex using Destination Club while also making VSN less useful to get Mandatory and legacy weeks owners through inventory starvation to create incentives to upgrade into developer inventory.


What did your parents “upgrade” from?

I think most owners never gave up their highly desired units for flex ownerships. That inventory would still remain in the VSN. Places like WSJ and HRA are currently not in any flex program. I wonder if they are holding their inventory for those resorts for a combined product?

I think the VSN will operate just fine for a few years. I suspect once a combined product rolls out people will want the ability to book both brands and it may turn more people onto giving back what they own to “upgrade”, if that’s something they would have to do.


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## Mowogo (Jul 31, 2021)

CPNY said:


> What did your parents “upgrade” from?
> 
> I think most owners never gave up their highly desired units for flex ownerships. That inventory would still remain in the VSN. Places like WSJ and HRA are currently not in any flex program. I wonder if they are holding their inventory for those resorts for a combined product?
> 
> I think the VSN will operate just fine for a few years. I suspect once a combined product rolls out people will want the ability to book both brands and it may turn more people onto giving back what they own to “upgrade”, if that’s something they would have to do.


They had two voluntary weeks at Vistana Resort, all bought developer, and it was done as trade in and now only have Sheraton Flex.  I think you undersell the attachment most owners have to their specific resort outside of Hawaii and TUG.  And honestly, for how they use their timeshare, Flex is a good product and is improving their timeshare experience being able to book a 2 bedroom with multiple view options for Christmas at Sheraton Steamboat Springs.  Next year will likely be Christmas in Kauai when before they were primarily in Florida and exchanging for points (which still have value if you take advantage of certain ways to game Bonvoy).


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## remowidget (Jul 31, 2021)

jwalke11 said:


> Has anyone ever actually gotten any benefit from Gold elite Bonvoy status?  Other than a few bonus points?  I have never been upgraded - not even after I became permanent Titanium status.  I finally got some suite nights so I'll have to see if I can actually use those.


Gold is pretty worthless these days. Not that platinum or titanium are great. We have gotten upgrades with all three, but Gold was back when it was SPG. We have never gotten many upgrades, but we tend to stay in cheaper hotels that don't have many suites. 

Suite nights haven't been great for us either.

SPG owned a lot of properties, whereas Marriott tends not to own properties. They just own customers. So, benefits and upgrades are up to the franchisee hotels and how they are willing or not to follow the rules. From what I've read in places like the points guy, it is relatively common for suites to be available but not for upgrades.

Of course, this is all hotel talk and off the topic of this thread.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 31, 2021)

Gold Bonvoy today is the equivalent to the old Marriott Rewards Silver
Platinum Bonvoy today is more equivalent to the old Marriott Rewards Gold.


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## CPNY (Jul 31, 2021)

Mowogo said:


> They had two voluntary weeks at Vistana Resort, all bought developer, and it was done as trade in and now only have Sheraton Flex.  I think you undersell the attachment most owners have to their specific resort outside of Hawaii and TUG.  And honestly, for how they use their timeshare, Flex is a good product and is improving their timeshare experience being able to book a 2 bedroom with multiple view options for Christmas at Sheraton Steamboat Springs.  Next year will likely be Christmas in Kauai when before they were primarily in Florida and exchanging for points (which still have value if you take advantage of certain ways to game Bonvoy).


Sheraton resorts are usually pretty easy to get at 8 months. Westin on the other hand is not always the case. In the case of your parents, owning In flex is a better option than owning in SVR. Unless of course they had to pay tens of thousands more to “upgrade”.

exchanging for bonvoy points is a terrible conversion and one they should avoid in nearly all cases.


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## remowidget (Jul 31, 2021)

Marriott vacation club and Marriott hotels are two separate companies with reciprocal agreements. Currently, Marriott Vacation Club and Vistana are two separate companies. If MVC and Vistana are merged into one company, they can probably do whatever they want. If not, it seems like they would be doing more of a trade program of some kind.

In Vistana, we have two classes of owners with one trading system. Marriott is different. While they have two classes of owners like Vistana, only points owners can trade. If Marriott week owners want to trade into another property, they must do so through Interval international. It has always been this way.

It seems to me that unless they are going to merge and make big changes, they will be limited to combining with the most restrictive rules, or be hit with class action law suits. While I think MVC points can be used anytime up to a year, vistana has the 8 month home resort ownership period(even with points). I personally think that any changes will only affect trading at 8 months. Beause of this 8 month window in Vistanas system, I think any changes between the two systems will only occurr at the 8 month window. I think they will somehow combine points values and make MVC and Vistana open to cross trades at 8 months. I can see where salesman would say this is a better deal for MVC owners. MVC owners would have access to all of Vistana availability at 8 months, whereas Vistana would only have access to MVC points availability. Also, it seems that the most popular resorts in MVC are more likely to be mostly sold out because any MVC owner can book them at a year.

I don't think that salesman know what is really going to happen, or it would leak. I think they are given a script of what they are supposed to reveal and they infer stuff from that.


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## Hoppyness (Jul 31, 2021)

karenmb said:


> I just completed a sale presentation at a Marriott timeshare resort. I was told the merger will only benefit Marriott owners. I was told that if you are a Marriott owner you will have the ability to transfer / trade into Westin / Vistana properties. But it will not let  Westin / Vistana book Marriott properties. “Because MARRIOTT bought Westin /Vistana” “We ( Marriott) own them”  ( Westin / Vistana) They we’re displaying a whole video on the NEW properties ( Westin’s) Does anyone have any information regarding how they think the merger might play out. They said it might take place by the end of the year. Thanks


We just completed an öwners "update"at our Vistana resort. Very close to update of Feb 2020 which came 2 months after we purchased at Westin in Cancun.  At that time we were told US gov had issued a severe warning on travel to all of Mexico(not!) This time  they said we "can't even give away properies in Mexico. Marriott isn't investing in Mexico be cause the government could shut them down at any moment.." despite the fact that Mexico iremains the #1 international destination for North American travelers.  Said we needed to buy flex becuse at some time, not sure when,we would not be able to trade Westin Mexico for other Marriott or Vistana prop. unless we buy flex. We didn't bite. Then were told our booking would be so difficult if we didn't buy flex that we would have to go during undesirable times like hurricane season..  So Summer+Beach Vacations= Hurricane Season  on the east coast of the USA and the Caribbean, Right ? Happens to be the most popular times to visit.  We didn't buy with the gol of trading. We bought with thre goal of VISITING. II is for trading. Royal Resorts pushes a similar package with their new affiliation with Wyndham. Seems to me that younger people arent interested in time shares, so the marketing has to evolve.


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## boraxo (Aug 1, 2021)

This is a complete line of bull but not surprising given the source (a timeshare salesperson). We got fed similar nonsense by the Welk sales team last month (Welk was acquired by Hyatt). Nobody really knows how the new system will absorb the old one. It is like airline mergers you can't predict how the points will transfer but generally you have more options than you did before. I expect that will be the case here too.

Of course they are trying to convert every fixed week unit to points but we all know that can be a very bad deal depending on what you currently own. My parents are happy with their fixed weeks in Palm Springs and as Clarence Thomas likes to say "they ain't evolving. I suspect my inlaws who own Starwood aka Vistana feel the same way.


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## vistana101 (Aug 1, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Gold Bonvoy today is the equivalent to the old Marriott Rewards Silver
> Platinum Bonvoy today is more equivalent to the old SPG Gold.



I think you mean Platinum Bonvoy is closer to the old Marriott* Gold level? SPG Gold didn't offer lounge access or breakfast and had minimal upgrade benefits.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 1, 2021)

vistana101 said:


> I think you mean Platinum Bonvoy is closer to the old Marriott* Gold level? SPG Gold didn't offer lounge access or breakfast and had minimal upgrade benefits.


Yes, I was. I updated my post.


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## RunCat (Aug 2, 2021)

vistana101 said:


> I think you mean Platinum Bonvoy is closer to the old Marriott* Gold level? SPG Gold didn't offer lounge access or breakfast and had minimal upgrade benefits.



With SPG Gold, I was given access to the Lounge Level a number of times; albeit, I also asked.


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## farinc (Aug 3, 2021)

karenmb said:


> I just completed a sale presentation at a Marriott timeshare resort. I was told the merger will only benefit Marriott owners. I was told that if you are a Marriott owner you will have the ability to transfer / trade into Westin / Vistana properties. But it will not let  Westin / Vistana book Marriott properties. “Because MARRIOTT bought Westin /Vistana” “We ( Marriott) own them”  ( Westin / Vistana) They we’re displaying a whole video on the NEW properties ( Westin’s) Does anyone have any information regarding how they think the merger might play out. They said it might take place by the end of the year. Thanks



Confused.  I thought weston and sheraton were originally SPG and SPG was bought by Marriott some years ago?


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## CPNY (Aug 3, 2021)

farinc said:


> Confused.  I thought weston and sheraton were originally SPG and SPG was bought by Marriott some years ago?


Westin and Sheraton hotels were formally Starwood. Starwood also had its own vacation club, the Starwood Vacation Club. The vacation club was spun off into its own company some time ago, to be renamed Vistana Signature Experiences. Marriott hotels company also spun off its vacation club Into a separate company called MVC. Both vacation clubs continued to license the hotel brand names.

Vistana was purchased by interval leisure group which also owned Hyatt vacation club. So ILG owned VSE, Interval international and HRC.

Marriott hotels bought Starwood hotels and created bonvoy. Bonvoy continues to have a licensing agreement with the vacation club resorts.

Marriott vacation club purchased ILG and are now Marriott Vacations Worldwide. So Bonvoy owns the hotels and MVW owns thevacation club resorts and products. Hope I got that right.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 4, 2021)

I posted this on the Marriott forum, but thought it would be relevant too this thread as well.

There was some updated information on the integration of the Marriott/Sheraton/Westin Vacation Clubs during Marriott Vacations Worldwide's July 29 Second Quarter 2021 earnings conference call. Here is what CEO Steve Weisz said:

*Steve Weisz:* _We continue to expand the use of technology to lower our back‐office cost and improve our associates experience by leveraging artificial intelligence to augment and automate many of our high volume internal transactional processes. *And we're making good progress on the technology needed to link our Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton products into a single points‐based offering in early 2022.*_

Later in the call, one of the investment analysts asked a follow-up question on this point:

*Ben Chaiken: *_You also mentioned the single platform kind of bringing all the brands under one umbrella. This seems like a, you know, another very interesting kind of tailwind, as well. It is too early to talk about some of the top line benefits? It seems like—I don't want to necessarily steer the conversation, but it seems like this could benefit, you know, close rate, price and just the consumer value proposition overall. So, I'm just hoping to get your perspective there._

*Steve Weisz: *_You've touched on several, that are not only logical, but somewhat obvious, and this is again— this is three of the four brands. It would not include Hyatt, by virtue of our license agreement and everything else, but the Sheraton, Westin, and Marriott brands into a single platform, and we believe that, it does increase the customer value proposition. We believe that it should help improve close rates. and then ergo, you'd like to think that it has a nice impact on things like VPG. but, you know, again, *we're talking about rollout early next year. We are very pleased with the progress we're making on all the bits and pieces behind the scenes that we have to put in place in order to get this thing together.* But, between what we would think logically, as well as some customer research we've done, we think this will resonate very well with not only our existing owners but, new owners, as well.  _

So, not any new details, but it seems like confirmation that we may have some news coming early in 2022.


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## jwalke11 (Aug 4, 2021)

Mowogo said:


> They had two voluntary weeks at Vistana Resort, all bought developer, and it was done as trade in and now only have Sheraton Flex.  I think you undersell the attachment most owners have to their specific resort outside of Hawaii and TUG.  And honestly, for how they use their timeshare, Flex is a good product and is improving their timeshare experience being able to book a 2 bedroom with multiple view options for Christmas at Sheraton Steamboat Springs.  Next year will likely be Christmas in Kauai when before they were primarily in Florida and exchanging for points (which still have value if you take advantage of certain ways to game Bonvoy).


curious as to how you "game Bonvoy"  is there a thread for this?


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## Mowogo (Aug 4, 2021)

jwalke11 said:


> curious as to how you "game Bonvoy" is there a thread for this?



That is the topic of a bunch of blogs and websites focusing on maximizing miles and points. Look for The Points Guy, Boarding Area, Inside Flyer, and FlyerTalk 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WorldTraveler1972 (Aug 26, 2021)

Just attended an owner's presentation.  It's all been finalized how it will be handled.

The 2 programs will stay totally separate, however all of the unsold weeks of vistana will be added to the DC trust.  Thus, once the unsold vistana inventory is put into the DC trust for DC points owners to use their is a limited amount of vistana weeks in the DC trust.  For example, if 80% of all vistana weeks are held by owners, and 20% are currently unsold, then those 20% will go into the trust.  This is exactly the same way it was in 2010 for all of Marriott Vacation Club properties pre destination club points.  In 2010 when the destination club program came out, all of the unsold Marriott weeks at that time were put into the trust.  Then as Marriott build new Marriott Vacation Club properties, all of the new properties were added to the trust and there were no deeded weeks for the new properties added after 2010.  Marriott was forced to offer people with deeded weeks a cheap way to get into the DC program.  So at that time, they made a one time offer where for $595 per deeded week you could have the option every year to exchange your week for DC points, however in doing so you were forced to pay the annual $215 DC fees in perpetuity or lose the ability to have the annual choice of using your deeded fixed/ floating week or trading them for DC points.  Since you continued to retain ownership of your deeded week, you would only pay your individual resort maintenance fees and not have anything to do with DC point owners who would have to pay a maintenance fee per destination club point.  A lot of people with deeded weeks of MVC properties in 2010 decided against paying the extra one time fee of $595 and the annual perpetual fee of $215 and kept their week.  The reason why everyone did not take advantage of that option is it was a bad deal (unless you opted every year to take the DC points and only use them on stays during Sunday - Friday).  For people who paid the $595 one time fee and the annual perpetual fee of $215 to be able to annually choose to trade their week for DC points would be ripped off because they were given the lowest weekly point total during their week's season.  So essentially you would get the lowest weekly DC point total during your season (i.e. platinum) in exchange for relinquishing use of your week for that year.  So let's say platinum season has a week or two during it that have high demand (myrtle beach Marriott during 4th of July week).  If you opted for DC points that year, you would get 3000 points because that is the lowest point total for a week during platinum season.  Now, if let's say instead you wanted to use your week instead of trading for DC points and book the week of the 4th of July.  You would end up with the week of the 4th of july.  Now if someone wanted to use DC points to book the 4th of July, it would cost them 6000 DC points for the same size unit that you would only get 3000 DC points if you chose that option in any year.

The same way it works for people with deeded Marriott weeks now did not opt for the one time fee of $595 and the annual perpetual fee of $215 is exactly how it will work with vistana weeks.  There will be no trading staroptions for DC points.  MVC at the resorts/ owners updates is trying to push now a one time only offer where you can purchase a MINIMUM of 1000 DC points totalling over $15k plus all of the escrow and paperwork fees in order to give you a "hybrid" account.  Thus you purchase 1000 DC points and pay the annual $215 fee and they will allow you to trade your use of your deeded week that year for the lowest weekly point total during your season.  They are also saying that the 1000 points you buy plus the DC point value of the weeks you can opt to exchange will go towards status (i.e. chairman's status).  The status is based upon the total of what they would give you for opting to trade your deeded use week for points..  Now they are not claiming you need to opt each year to use your deeded weeks in order to use them for status, just that all of your Marriott and vistana weeks point values will go towards status.  In addition, they said in 2022 before everything is announced they will be increasing the amount of DC points you will need for status levels (at least a 20% increase), however anyone who has a certain status level at the end of 2021 will retain that level even though the points requirement went up.

They also said that you must purchase the 1000 DC points from a mvc sales center in order to be able to have the annual option to trade any of your Marriott or vistana deeded weeks into DC points.  They said that you can't go and buy resale points on the open market or have DC points gifted to you by a direct relative.  None of those ways will count towards the 1000 point minimum of DC points.

I have 1 Marriott grand Chateau resale deeded week, 2 resale Sheraton Broadway Weeks, and 6 resale Sheratin Vistana Villages (Bella & Key West mandatory VSN) weeks.   If I paid the $15k for 1000 points I could become chairman's level in the DC program overnight.  But it's still not worth it because the DC points that I could get in exchange for trading my deeded weeks useage in any year would be so devalued unless I choose the worst week of any season that I wanted to use my DC points for.  

Keep your weeks and don't buy 1000 DC points to get into the DC program..  If we all do that, maybe they will offer the same type of deal they did in 2010 with only a $595 per week buy in.  Otherwise they will not have enough inventory of unsold vistana weeks to satisfy the DC point owners.

If you wanted access to the DC point program, for the same $15k it would cost you to buy 1000 points from them, you could just buy 3000 DC points on the resale market which are selling for $2 per point and pay Marriott the $3 per point registration fee.  Then at least when you no longer want to use the DC point system anymore you could sell the 3000 points on the resale market for $6k.  At least that way you would only loose $9k (the $3 per point registration fee).  If you buy 1000 points directly from MVC, you would loose $13k.(Purchase 1000 points for $15k and later sell them for the going price of $2 per point.


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## iowaguy09 (Aug 26, 2021)

WorldTraveler1972 said:


> Just attended an owner's presentation.  It's all been finalized how it will be handled.
> 
> The 2 programs will stay totally separate, however all of the unsold weeks of vistana will be added to the DC trust.  Thus, once the unsold vistana inventory is put into the DC trust for DC points owners to use their is a limited amount of vistana weeks in the DC trust.  For example, if 80% of all vistana weeks are held by owners, and 20% are currently unsold, then those 20% will go into the trust.  This is exactly the same way it was in 2010 for all of Marriott Vacation Club properties pre destination club points.  In 2010 when the destination club program came out, all of the unsold Marriott weeks at that time were put into the trust.  Then as Marriott build new Marriott Vacation Club properties, all of the new properties were added to the trust and there were no deeded weeks for the new properties added after 2010.  Marriott was forced to offer people with deeded weeks a cheap way to get into the DC program.  So at that time, they made a one time offer where for $595 per deeded week you could have the option every year to exchange your week for DC points, however in doing so you were forced to pay the annual $215 DC fees in perpetuity or lose the ability to have the annual choice of using your deeded fixed/ floating week or trading them for DC points.  Since you continued to retain ownership of your deeded week, you would only pay your individual resort maintenance fees and not have anything to do with DC point owners who would have to pay a maintenance fee per destination club point.  A lot of people with deeded weeks of MVC properties in 2010 decided against paying the extra one time fee of $595 and the annual perpetual fee of $215 and kept their week.  The reason why everyone did not take advantage of that option is it was a bad deal (unless you opted every year to take the DC points and only use them on stays during Sunday - Friday).  For people who paid the $595 one time fee and the annual perpetual fee of $215 to be able to annually choose to trade their week for DC points would be ripped off because they were given the lowest weekly point total during their week's season.  So essentially you would get the lowest weekly DC point total during your season (i.e. platinum) in exchange for relinquishing use of your week for that year.  So let's say platinum season has a week or two during it that have high demand (myrtle beach Marriott during 4th of July week).  If you opted for DC points that year, you would get 3000 points because that is the lowest point total for a week during platinum season.  Now, if let's say instead you wanted to use your week instead of trading for DC points and book the week of the 4th of July.  You would end up with the week of the 4th of july.  Now if someone wanted to use DC points to book the 4th of July, it would cost them 6000 DC points for the same size unit that you would only get 3000 DC points if you chose that option in any year.
> 
> ...


What about Westin Flex owners?


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## Mowogo (Aug 26, 2021)

iowaguy09 said:


> What about Westin Flex owners?


My guess based on that update combined with the common thread is that Flex owners are going to be offered the cheap option to enroll that MVC had to offer to get people to enroll.  Makes for an easy way to get more inventory at VSN resorts because they need to appear more integrated than they have been for future owners due to the integration of the brands in Bonvoy.


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## WorldTraveler1972 (Aug 26, 2021)

No.  From what I heard they are not offering anybody cheap buy in.  Just trying to push $15k purchase of 1000 points and they are saying that post final announcement the minimum will go from requiring you to purchase 1000 points to having to purchase 2000 points.


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## WorldTraveler1972 (Aug 26, 2021)

WorldTraveler1972 said:


> No.  From what I heard they are not offering anybody cheap buy in.  Just trying to push $15k purchase of 1000 points and they are saying that post final announcement the minimum will go from requiring you to purchase 1000 points to having to purchase 2000 points.


One of the main reasons why they will not allow cheap buy In now is that it does not make them any money.  They do not want to make the vistana weeks more valuable.  I was let into a secret that MVC is actively purchasing all of the dirt cheap weeks on the resale market and trying to get people to give their Marriott and vistana weeks back to Marriott.  That is how you get more inventory on the cheap or for free.  They do not want to create a way for someone to buy a dirt cheap week (or even get one for free on timesharenation.com where they are giving away vistana weeks and are doing all of the escrow paperwork for free) and then be able to use the DC point system.  Even those people who paid the $595 back in 2010 the ability to use the DC points program ends with the owners death or gift or sale of the week.  Thus, the next owner does not have the ability to re-enroll the week into the DC point program..


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## andysnovel (Aug 26, 2021)

Lei’s wait for the official announcement , none of this makes any sense to me, I am a vistana owner of direct purchase of flex and resale purchase—Bella—-there has to more to this from my Vistana perspective. There is plenty of money to be made from conversion fees, thousands of Vistana owners paying ‘X’ amount of dollars, their has to be incentives here to buy in to the program.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 26, 2021)

WorldTraveler1972 said:


> Just attended an owner's presentation. It's all been finalized how it will be handled.


Oh! Well nothing more to talk about now. We know ALL the details. The salesperson said so   LOL


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## WorldTraveler1972 (Aug 26, 2021)

Think, if mvc takes all of the unsold weeks that vistana has, they don't really need you unless they are making a substantial amount of money.  Right now they are selling a DC point for $15.  As soon as your right of recession ends, typically you can only get $2 a point on the resale market.  The purchaser of the point pays you $2 per point and pays Marriott $3 per point registration fee.  That is how you make money.  Not by letting everybody in the back door.  Doing that would make the DC points totally worthless as why would someone pay $6k in registration fees (2000 points x $3 registration fee) for not even enough points to get you a 2 bedroom unit at the worst Marriott resort during the worst season.  

Think exclusivity and flexibility.  That is what the DC program offers.  They will think of any potential loopholes and make sure you pay through the nose one way or another.  There is no free lunch or heavily discounted lunch.  If you think so, I got a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you for cheap.  

By law, the vistana contracts cannot be changed unless 100% of all owners agree to do so.


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## ocdb8r (Aug 26, 2021)

WorldTraveler1972 said:


> Think, if mvc takes all of the unsold weeks that vistana has, they don't really need you unless they are making a substantial amount of money.



Except that there are virtually no "unsold weeks" as Vistana has for some time been placing any weeks it owned into the various trusts it started (e.g. the Westin Flex, Sheraton Flex and Aventuras).  You can't just dump the unsold points inventory into DC.  As usual, this is just salesperson SPIN on the new program.

Of course, I have no doubt they're working on some way to externally market it as a single system for sale....however, what is actually interesting for most members of this community are the actual behind the scenes details a) to address fears of existing owners being marginalized in some way; and b) so we can learn the best ways to ACTUALLY maximize our ownerships.  



dioxide45 said:


> Oh! Well nothing more to talk about now. We know ALL the details. The salesperson said so   LOL



EXACTLY!




WorldTraveler1972 said:


> One of the main reasons why they will not allow cheap buy In now is that it does not make them any money.



It makes them a ton of money.  It's virtually PURE PROFIT as it costs them nothing to charge an "enrollment" fee.  



WorldTraveler1972 said:


> I was let into a secret that MVC is actively purchasing all of the dirt cheap weeks on the resale market and trying to get people to give their Marriott and vistana weeks back to Marriott.



This same lie was used by salespeople before the DP was launched...the weeks MVC/Vistana gets back are a drop in the bucket compared to what they need to make a full system actually work (look at Hyatt as a good example of a point system launched with no incentive for existing owners to participate....total failure).  Aside from this simply not being enough, weeks of value aren't dumped for free and you can't have a successful system comprised of a surplus of bronze and silver weeks.

Bottom line is a) they DO in fact need existing Vistana owners to participate in some way as there are large swaths of valuable weeks only in our hands (most of Lagunamar, Harborside, Kaanapali South and North and most everything sold in the mainland US); and b) it makes no sense to completely marginalize the existing Vistana customer base by making their ownerships less useful...as a group we're much more valuable as potential upsale prospects (just as the existing MVC owners were when DP was launched).  Now, I'm not delusional; MVC is not quite in the same position as it was when it launched DP (with very low inventory in a trust) so it may not be as "generous" with a super low buy-in offer for existing Vistana owners, but I have no doubt that will make some sort of "attractive" offer to get our participation.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 26, 2021)

WorldTraveler1972 said:


> Just attended an owner's presentation.  It's all been finalized how it will be handled.



It may be "all finalized" internally but the usual caution applies: Until an official announcement is made, NOTHING that a salesperson says should be relied upon to justify ANY purchase. Prior to Marriott announcing and implementing its Destination Club on 6/20/10, we Marriott owners were subjected to years of speculation and warnings in presentations given by the sales staff, and not one of those single presentations turned out to be 100% true or false. Even after, for the first couple of years we were still learning and processing by trial-and-error in many cases.

The only caveat I would mention here is that on the day the DC was announced for Marriott owners, direct sales of US Weeks were immediately suspended and the official eligibility terms of existing sold Weeks to participate in the DC did not extend to any Weeks purchased after that day (Bundle Packages and special sales incentives that counter the official eligibility terms came much later.) I'm not saying this to entice anybody to go out and buy Weeks with the expectation that they'll be able to play in the DC sandbox if/after a Vistana-DC integration is announced, but only to caution that if you're expecting an announcement and then an opportunity to buy Weeks (resale or direct) that will conform to the eligibility terms, that probably will not be an option for quite some time.



WorldTraveler1972 said:


> ... The 2 programs will stay totally separate, however all of the unsold weeks of vistana will be added to the DC trust.  Thus, once the unsold vistana inventory is put into the DC trust for DC points owners to use their is a limited amount of vistana weeks in the DC trust.  For example, if 80% of all vistana weeks are held by owners, and 20% are currently unsold, then those 20% will go into the trust.  This is exactly the same way it was in 2010 for all of Marriott Vacation Club properties pre destination club points.  In 2010 when the destination club program came out, all of the unsold Marriott weeks at that time were put into the trust.  Then as Marriott build new Marriott Vacation Club properties, all of the new properties were added to the trust and there were no deeded weeks for the new properties added after 2010.  Marriott was forced to offer people with deeded weeks a cheap way to get into the DC program.  So at that time, they made a one time offer where for $595 per deeded week you could have the option every year to exchange your week for DC points, however in doing so you were forced to pay the annual $215 DC fees in perpetuity or lose the ability to have the annual choice of using your deeded fixed/ floating week or trading them for DC points.  Since you continued to retain ownership of your deeded week, you would only pay your individual resort maintenance fees and not have anything to do with DC point owners who would have to pay a maintenance fee per destination club point.  A lot of people with deeded weeks of MVC properties in 2010 decided against paying the extra one time fee of $595 and the annual perpetual fee of $215 and kept their week.  The reason why everyone did not take advantage of that option is it was a bad deal (unless you opted every year to take the DC points and only use them on stays during Sunday - Friday).  For people who paid the $595 one time fee and the annual perpetual fee of $215 to be able to annually choose to trade their week for DC points would be ripped off because they were given the lowest weekly point total during their week's season.  So essentially you would get the lowest weekly DC point total during your season (i.e. platinum) in exchange for relinquishing use of your week for that year.  So let's say platinum season has a week or two during it that have high demand (myrtle beach Marriott during 4th of July week).  If you opted for DC points that year, you would get 3000 points because that is the lowest point total for a week during platinum season.  Now, if let's say instead you wanted to use your week instead of trading for DC points and book the week of the 4th of July.  You would end up with the week of the 4th of july.  Now if someone wanted to use DC points to book the 4th of July, it would cost them 6000 DC points for the same size unit that you would only get 3000 DC points if you chose that option in any year.
> 
> The same way it works for people with deeded Marriott weeks now did not opt for the one time fee of $595 and the annual perpetual fee of $215 is exactly how it will work with vistana weeks.  There will be no trading staroptions for DC points.  MVC at the resorts/ owners updates is trying to push now a one time only offer where you can purchase a MINIMUM of 1000 DC points totalling over $15k plus all of the escrow and paperwork fees in order to give you a "hybrid" account.  Thus you purchase 1000 DC points and pay the annual $215 fee and they will allow you to trade your use of your deeded week that year for the lowest weekly point total during your season.  They are also saying that the 1000 points you buy plus the DC point value of the weeks you can opt to exchange will go towards status (i.e. chairman's status).  The status is based upon the total of what they would give you for opting to trade your deeded use week for points..  Now they are not claiming you need to opt each year to use your deeded weeks in order to use them for status, just that all of your Marriott and vistana weeks point values will go towards status.  In addition, they said in 2022 before everything is announced they will be increasing the amount of DC points you will need for status levels (at least a 20% increase), however anyone who has a certain status level at the end of 2021 will retain that level even though the points requirement went up.
> 
> ...





WorldTraveler1972 said:


> One of the main reasons why they will not allow cheap buy In now is that it does not make them any money.  They do not want to make the vistana weeks more valuable.  I was let into a secret that MVC is actively purchasing all of the dirt cheap weeks on the resale market and trying to get people to give their Marriott and vistana weeks back to Marriott.  That is how you get more inventory on the cheap or for free.  They do not want to create a way for someone to buy a dirt cheap week (or even get one for free on timesharenation.com where they are giving away vistana weeks and are doing all of the escrow paperwork for free) and then be able to use the DC point system.  Even those people who paid the $595 back in 2010 the ability to use the DC points program ends with the owners death or gift or sale of the week.  Thus, the next owner does not have the ability to re-enroll the week into the DC point program..



There are so many "facts" here about the Marriott/DC integration - at its inception and continuing through today - that are simply wrong. Granted, they're technical things related to eligibility, pricing, Club Dues, seeding the DC Trust, etc ... but it would be a waste of time to refute them now because there has been no official announcement of a Vistana/DC integration. Many of us Marriott owners have posted here and there in the Vistana forum to try to explain aspects of the DC to give you food for thought, though I don't believe that any of us have said that we know definitively what you may be facing. If you're interested in the technical correctness of how the Marriott/DC integration works you can check out the sticky thread in the Marriott forum: FAQ - MVC DESTINATIONS Points Program, but again with the caution that there's no way to know right now that it's what's ahead for Vistana owners, so the FAQ might only make sense if/after an official announcement is made.

I keep using "if" in reference to a Vistana/DC integration. I do believe one is coming and I am always up for speculation threads, but my expectations aren't any more or less legitimate than anybody else's. So buckle up and if it happens, be thankful that you'll have the benefit of Marriott owners' experience and knowledge to help you figure it out. Good luck!


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 26, 2021)

WorldTraveler1972 said:


> Think…
> By law, the vistana contracts cannot be changed unless 100% of all owners agree to do so.



I have a Lotto Ticket to the next drawing that is guaranteed to win.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sail27bill (Aug 26, 2021)

I sat for a presentation at Oceana Palms 2 weeks ago and was told by a salesperson that Marriott was not going to offer Vistana owners a cheap buy-in cost but that they would have to buy a minimum number of points in order to play in the Marriott sandbox (1500 points I believe, but the number was not finalized as of yet).  The reasoning was that Marriott paid a lot to acquire Vistana and they felt that eventually the cost of points would skyrocket and Marriott would make loads of profit.  I am in the wait and see approach as I own both Vistana weeks and Marriott points. Besides, situations and policies are constantly being updated so I believe it is better to wait for the official announcement than be left upside down or disappointed.


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## daviator (Aug 26, 2021)

As someone else pointed out, it was my understanding that pretty much all of Vistana's remaining inventory (much of it is kind of the dregs of locations and weeks) was put into the various Flex trusts.  Presumably a lot of those are still unsold, but they’re owned by the trusts now.

Can MVC take weeks OUT of those trusts?  I’m thinking they probably can, but I don’t know with certainty.  They’d have to leave enough inventory to cover all of the Flex points that have been sold to owners, of course, but if they pulled out weeks to put into this new program, it could significantly impact reservation availability for Flex owners.  (It would essentially be like every Flex point had been sold, and it would become really challenging to get the location and dates you want to reserve.)

Personally, I have little interest in the MVC properties and don’t see value in paying for access to them, especially if it’s true that our ownerships would be severely undervalued in the new scheme.  But if these latest rumors – yes, they’re just rumors – are true, I can look forward to several years of owner updates that are really easy to walk away from with wallet intact.  Plus my mom owns in the MVC program and I’ll probably end up inheriting that at some point, so I’ll get into it that way.


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## ocdb8r (Aug 27, 2021)

sail27bill said:


> I sat for a presentation at Oceana Palms 2 weeks ago and was told by a salesperson that Marriott was not going to offer Vistana owners a cheap buy-in cost but that they would have to buy a minimum number of points in order to play in the Marriott sandbox (1500 points I believe, but the number was not finalized as of yet).



This is effectively the same "offer" available to current Marriott resale week owners (MVC regularly permits reslae owners to "enroll" their resale week if they purchase a minimum number of points).  I would be surprised if they don't do ANYthing different to incentivize Vistana owners to participate.  There are several permutations MVC could do here....when DP launched there was an "enrollment" fee for direct purchasers and a higher fee for resale owners.  They could do the same with Vistana owners.  They could also tier it three ways - one fee for direct purchasers, one for resale mandatory resorts and one for resale voluntary resorts.  Of course I could be wrong, but I still think MVC NEEDS Vistana owners to participate to make any "integration" successful.



daviator said:


> Can MVC take weeks OUT of those trusts?  I’m thinking they probably can, but I don’t know with certainty.



Yes, there is a mechanism for weeks to be pulled out of the trust, but I  don't think there is meaningful inventory except at those few resorts designated as pure trust from the beginning (Westin Cabo, Westin Cancun, Nanea and part of St. John). I also think Nanea has quite a high percentage sold so there would be limited inventory to pull from there).  I just don't think it's sufficient to create meaningful "integration".


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 30, 2021)

IDK...I purchased Vistana deeded HI OF without access to MVC. No expectation beyond this value.

We only use our HI week and dont trade.

I doubt MVC has anything to offer in trade that I cannot get via RCI or SOs.

When I want short stays I will use my SOs or resale HGVC points for *free* without enrollment or additional MF. HGVC are (or will be) in many of the same locations with Diamond acquisition.

Unless they offer super cheap enrollment e.g. $500 there is no point. Renting out the unit is a moneymaker not a money taker and we can use the money to go anywhere.

Bottomline: no value prop for us.


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## kozykritter (Sep 1, 2021)

Had an owners update today at Sheraton Steamboat. Bottom line is they didn't have any official information about the upcoming combination/integration and said to ignore all the speculation here ;-) The manager did say that Vistana will receive equanimity when it comes to integration with MVC (vague enough?) and scoffed at the 1:32 ratio that has frequently been mentioned here. Their emphasis was on buying more Vistana to ensure 12 to 8 month priority access regardless of what happens. Since all my ownership is Sheraton Flex, that meant Westin Flex was offered and declined. Without official information, I'm not ready to invest any money that might actually end up being in the wrong direction for how I travel and then have to invest more money to fix it once everything is announced.


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## ocdb8r (Sep 1, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> IDK...I purchased Vistana deeded HI OF without access to MVC. No expectation beyond this value.
> 
> We only use our HI week and dont trade.
> 
> ...



Totally get where you are coming from and for your type of ownership, all makes complete sense.  I would just keep a couple of things in mind: 

1) most owners are not like Tuggers; the idea of renting their unit to take the cash and then use it for an alternative vacation is intimidating to many.  I have some family friends who bought several Vistana units direct before I got ahold of them (and shook them vigorously) and even with me by their side offering help, they struggle to do much more than just trade in the internal system (and so for people like them, MVC might be able to sell them on enrolling to open a new world of potential resorts to trade into - and I think the direct trading offers much more ease and certainty than II or RCI);

2) we have no idea how they will integrate Vistana.  When the MVC DP program was launched, owners of weeks like yours (OF Hawaii, OF Aruba...etc) found themselves in a VERY strong position.  They went from their primary MVC trading option being week for week in II (with possibly an upgrade in size for the additional trade strength of their weeks) to being able to convert their valuable weeks into sufficient DPs to get multiple weeks in other MVC resorts.  Just don't be so sure there's no value proposition - your preference for renting your valuable weeks has been driven by the fact the Vistana points system basically values your weeks the same as (a prime week) in Palm Dessert or Orlando (with the exception of the recent bump afforded you for the view).  It's possible the DP value of your week in the integrated system is such you might find some (occasional) value there.


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 1, 2021)

ocdb8r said:


> Totally get where you are coming from and for your type of ownership, all makes complete sense.  I would just keep a couple of things in mind:
> 
> 1) most owners are not like Tuggers; the idea of renting their unit to take the cash and then use it for an alternative vacation is intimidating to many.  I have some family friends who bought several Vistana units direct before I got ahold of them (and shook them vigorously) and even with me by their side offering help, they struggle to do much more than just trade in the internal system (and so for people like them, MVC might be able to sell them on enrolling to open a new world of potential resorts to trade into - and I think the direct trading offers much more ease and certainty than II or RCI);
> 
> 2) we have no idea how they will integrate Vistana.  When the MVC DP program was launched, owners of weeks like yours (OF Hawaii, OF Aruba...etc) found themselves in a VERY strong position.  They went from their primary MVC trading option being week for week in II (with possibly an upgrade in size for the additional trade strength of their weeks) to being able to convert their valuable weeks into sufficient DPs to get multiple weeks in other MVC resorts.  Just don't be so sure there's no value proposition - your preference for renting your valuable weeks has been driven by the fact the Vistana points system basically values your weeks the same as (a prime week) in Palm Dessert or Orlando (with the exception of the recent bump afforded you for the view).  It's possible the DP value of your week in the integrated system is such you might find some (occasional) value there.



You raise some great points. Will have to see what the value prop is - but it would have to be strong. The DP program apparently wasn't strong enough to attract a significant number of MOC Oceanfront and other high value properties. Sadly, members of the DP program have no access to such unenrolled high value units. It has been reported that after 10 years only 60% of units have been enrolled in the DP program. The remaining 40% are independent weeks where the owners use, trade in II RCI or rent.


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## Ken555 (Sep 1, 2021)

Gosh, wouldn’t it be nice to get…facts? 


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> Gosh, wouldn’t it be nice to get…facts?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It would, but no one from Marriott is giving out that info...


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## Ken555 (Sep 1, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> It would, but no one from Marriott is giving out that info...



Let the fantasies continue! Where’s my popcorn… 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 1, 2021)

The 10 year MVC DC 60/40% enrollment is a fact that was shared in a financial disclosure. Helpful to know how the dog behaves as they would need to justify their program to existing MVC owners to demonstrate fairness. 

Would love to be surprised but I am not holding my breath.


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## mjm1 (Sep 1, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> You raise some great points. Will have to see what the value prop is - but it would have to be strong. The DP program apparently wasn't strong enough to attract a significant number of MOC Oceanfront and other high value properties. Sadly, members of the DP program have no access to such unenrolled high value units. It has been reported that after 10 years only 60% of units have been enrolled in the DP program. The remaining 40% are independent weeks where the owners use, trade in RCI or rent.



We enrolled our MOC OF unit and I know at least one other Tugger who enrolled several OF units. Not sure of the total, but I know we have been able to reserve OF units using points. While our first preference is to use our unit, we like having the additional flexibility of electing points for a given year and using them elsewhere. Especially in times like these where travel conditions are not ideal. If the cost to enroll Vistana units is not too great it is definitely worth consideration.

As a point of clarification, most MVC resorts trade through II. There are some that have dual affiliation with II and RCI. We like the fact that both MVC and Vistana are aligned with II.

Best regards.

Mike


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 1, 2021)

Oops yes II. I edited my original post.

It all depends on one's travel objectives and alternatives. If I didn't have short stay alternatives with SOs or HGVC I probably would consider enrolling because it's easy. An MOC OF owner could have easily rented out their unit this year. Even if they didn't want to rent, they could have deposited in II to trade for something close to home.

IMHO...I don't consider 60% enrollment after 10 years of trying a success. Perhaps they may try something different with Vistana.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMHO...I don't consider 60% enrollment after 10 years of trying a success. Perhaps they may try something different with Vistana.


For a long time the number fluctuate around 40%-45%. I don't think it was until they started offering "free" enrollment that they were able to bring that number up. One can now pretty much enroll for free by taking a tour or webinar.


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## daviator (Sep 1, 2021)

i agree with @Ken555 that this is popcorn-worthy, but I enjoy reading the speculation, though that's all it is.  If anyone is spending money based on the speculation, they’re making me think of the old adage about fools and their money.

It seems like, if nothing else, MVCI is going to create an even bigger inventory control nightmare, with usage rights mixed up in so many buckets of ownerships, trusts, possibly-overlapping points programs, etc… I don’t even think this would have been possible until recently, because it’s going to be too complicated for anything but a computer and sophisticated software to keep track of.  Those of us who elect to hang on to deeded weeks and not enroll them in anything will find ourselves swimming in a smaller and smaller pool of deeded ownerships as time goes on, but so long as we’re only competing with each other, at least during the Home Resort Reservation Period, I guess that’s ok.  It’s a little less clear what happens at 8 months with all the addition of Marriott owners and new overlay programs, we will have to wait and see.  A “merger” at some level doesn’t really work unless they equalize or balance demand.

To me, our Vistana resorts are (mostly) a superior product to most or all of the MVC properties.  So I can see plenty of MVC owners wanting to get into Vistana resorts without corresponding demand to go the other way. I do not have an overarching desire to get into any of the MVC properties, but I also have spent much time exploring their list, I know they have a lot of them.

At the 1:32 point conversion ratio that’s been suggested, I feel like nearly all the demand would come from the Marriott side.  But I think it probably won’t be that simple.  MVCI will have to do something more nuanced that assigns different values to different resorts and room types.  But then there’s the VSN where the points relationships between the Vistana properties are already well-established.  It just seems like it‘s going to be very complex and confusing, and maybe that’s part of what they want.  I think a confusing and complex program leads to more unused rooms which MVCI can monetize, while still selling all of the benefits of their complex program – benefits which are real, for those who can figure it all out.  So TUG becomes even more important to help people get value out of their ownerships.


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## mjm1 (Sep 1, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Oops yes II. I edited my original post.
> 
> It all depends on one's travel objectives and alternatives. If I didn't have short stay alternatives with SOs or HGVC I probably would consider enrolling because it's easy. An MOC OF owner could have easily rented out their unit this year. Even if they didn't want to rent, they could have deposited in II to trade for something close to home.
> 
> IMHO...I don't consider 60% enrollment after 10 years of trying a success. Perhaps they may try something different with Vistana.



If a MOC owner has the option I believe most would elect points for a given year rather than deposit their unit into II because their MF’s are much higher than other mainland resorts. However, if they lock off their unit they could get two trades in II, which may help balance things out. It really depends on the person and what they feel most comfortable with.

Best regards.

Mike


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## CalGalTraveler (Sep 1, 2021)

@mjm1 Good point. I forgot about the lock-off alternative. Depends on what people are most comfortable with and how they can derive most value. Some may view their 1 week 2 bdrm as 2 weeks because they could book back to back stays in a lock-off.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2021)

Best that I can find. Marriott is not creating a new trust for a combined program. They also haven't conveyed any Vistana inventory to their existing MVC Trust that they use for the DC program. They actually last conveyed some Marriott inventory to their trust on 7/9/2021. So it would seem a combined program won't include a new trust, unless those plans are still in the works.


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## SueDonJ (Sep 1, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Oops yes II. I edited my original post.
> 
> It all depends on one's travel objectives and alternatives. If I didn't have short stay alternatives with SOs or HGVC I probably would consider enrolling because it's easy. An MOC OF owner could have easily rented out their unit this year. Even if they didn't want to rent, they could have deposited in II to trade for something close to home.
> 
> IMHO...I don't consider 60% enrollment after 10 years of trying a success. Perhaps they may try something different with Vistana.






CalGalTraveler said:


> The 10 year MVC DC 60/40% enrollment is a fact that was shared in a financial disclosure. Helpful to know how the dog behaves as they would need to justify their program to existing MVC owners to demonstrate fairness.
> 
> Would love to be surprised but I am not holding my breath.



I think 60/40% is actually an indicator of success, considering that the overwhelming majority of purchases are direct and many of the highest-demand intervals are bought with the express purpose of using their weeks in season at their home resort, i.e. essentially to guarantee that the usage they want is the one that they'll get. Plus we never are told how many sold intervals go un-used every year although there are various indicators that say it's not an insubstantial number (by TUG standards anyway, where getting the absolute least value is unheard of.) Certainly Marriott doesn't need as high as 60% playing in the DC sandbox to fuel the engine that is the DC Exchange Company, not when it's taken into consideration that they can and do manipulate other inventory in-and-out of that company.


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## lmnanea (Sep 8, 2021)

mjm1 said:


> We enrolled our MOC OF unit and I know at least one other Tugger who enrolled several OF units. Not sure of the total, but I know we have been able to reserve OF units using points. While our first preference is to use our unit, we like having the additional flexibility of electing points for a given year and using them elsewhere. Especially in times like these where travel conditions are not ideal. If the cost to enroll Vistana units is not too great it is definitely worth consideration.
> 
> As a point of clarification, most MVC resorts trade through II. There are some that have dual affiliation with II and RCI. We like the fact that both MVC and Vistana are aligned with II.
> 
> ...


Our rescind cutoff is in couple days. The question we have is based on your experience, how would you rate MvC points program ex: how easy is it to get the size, unit, view, property of choice off season? We are purchasing 2K+one deeded resale week. Thx Mike.


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## mjm1 (Sep 8, 2021)

lmnanea said:


> Our rescind cutoff is in couple days. The question we have is based on your experience, how would you rate MvC points program ex: how easy is it to get the size, unit, view, property of choice off season? We are purchasing 2K+one deeded resale week. Thx Mike.



We have had success with using points, but the amount needed for high seasons and views can be very high. 2k points is not a lot to work with on their own depending what you are trying to do. It isn’t clear if you are somehow enrolling the resale week as part of a bundle purchase. If you are that can provide additional points if you make that election on an annual basis. Otherwise, you can reserve your deeded week and use it or trade it in II, and then add additional nights using your points, assuming the additional nights are available. Or you can use the points for shorter stays. We have used points for 5 night stays from Sunday to Friday on some trips, since those 5 nights may require the same points as just a Friday and Saturday night stay. It’s a good way to stretch your points.

Without knowing exactly what you are buying and the cost it is hard to say if what you are considering is a good deal. A resale purchase of points may be worth considering as an alternative.

Best regards.

Mike


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## lmnanea (Sep 8, 2021)

mjm1 said:


> We have had success with using points, but the amount needed for high seasons and views can be very high. 2k points is not a lot to work with on their own depending what you are trying to do. It isn’t clear if you are somehow enrolling the resale week as part of a bundle purchase. If you are that can provide additional points if you make that election on an annual basis. Otherwise, you can reserve your deeded week and use it or trade it in II, and then add additional nights using your points, assuming the additional nights are available. Or you can use the points for shorter stays. We have used points for 5 night stays from Sunday to Friday on some trips, since those 5 nights may require the same points as just a Friday and Saturday night stay. It’s a good way to stretch your points.
> 
> Without knowing exactly what you are buying and the cost it is hard to say if what you are considering is a good deal. A resale purchase of points may be worth considering as an alternative.
> 
> ...



Mike, appreciate response. Yes, helpful.

we are getting bundle 2k pts plus gold NCV. We are verifying if indeed its easy to deposit NCV (was told worth 2775 pts) combine with 2K DC points to get a 1 week 1Bdr or 2 bdr off season (Marc-Nov).


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## remowidget (Sep 8, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Best that I can find. Marriott is not creating a new trust for a combined program. They also haven't conveyed any Vistana inventory to their existing MVC Trust that they use for the DC program. They actually last conveyed some Marriott inventory to their trust on 7/9/2021. So it would seem a combined program won't include a new trust, unless those plans are still in the works.


My pie in the sky prediction is that they will pull Vistana properties under the MVC banner and Vistana will be no more. They will also create a trading program for everyone in the new program. Then they will spin off ILG, which would still contain Hyatt...

This would make them a much simpler straight forward company. They would lose the complexity and expense of II for Marriott week owners. They would also dramatically cut the overhead of Vistana. I think they have already been cutting Vistana overhead with call centers.

Full disclosure about my prediction ability. I was in an Apple store in the mid 80's with a friend who was in awe over their paint program. My opinion was why would anyone want one of these. Lol


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