# Major Changes In Marriott Rewards



## Armada (Oct 21, 2008)

These changes will appear tomorrow on Marriott's web site and we should be getting e-mail.  Effective 1/15/09:

1. No black outs for awards (in general)
2. There will be a new Category 8 for 14 hotels. These include the most popular properties in New York, London and Paris.
3.  Stay Anytime awards will go away.
4. For award stays, you will pay the same number of points for each night, but receive the fifth night 'free'.  This means for a category 7 hotel, the cost will be 140,000 points for 5 nights; 210,000 points for 7 nights and 280,000 points for 10 nights. No more 7 nights for 150,000 points!
5. Travel packages will still award 1 airline mile for 1 MR point.

For more information, check http://www.marriott.com/rewards/lra-faq.mi#question16


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## LAX Mom (Oct 21, 2008)

I was just reading this info on flyertalk and came back to TUG to post about these changes. This is a significant de-valuation of points! 

It will take lots more points to book a travel package, 360,000 points for 120,000 air miles and a 7 night stay in a category 8 hotel. That is 90,000 more points than it currently takes.

It also seems to make purchasing timeshares from Marriott much less attractive. The sales reps can't dangle those world trips every two years with these new travel packages. 

I've read the info on the Marriott site and I don't like the changes. I think I'll try to use most of my points up next year with reservations made prior to Jan. 15.

Very disappointing!!


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## steve1000 (Oct 21, 2008)

Interesting - it will be very similar to the Starwood points program.

LAX - good point - I'm sorry to see that the category 8 travel package will be so much more costly.


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## LAX Mom (Oct 21, 2008)

http://www.marriott.com/Images/Rewards/LRA Images/LRA_FAQ_TravelPackages.gif

This is the new tables for the travel packages. The category 1-5, with 120,000 miles has increased from 235,000 to 270,000. The most popular hotels in London, Paris & New York will now cost 360,000 for a 7 night stay and 120,000 mile! 

I'm glad I haven't purchased any more points this year. With these changes, and a price of .0125 per point it's not worth it to me!


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## SDKath (Oct 21, 2008)

Oh no!  This info is coming at a perfect time for me.  I just asked for info on buying direct from the developer.  I guess I don't need to bother to ask for more info.

Katherine


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## LAX Mom (Oct 21, 2008)

Katherine-
I definitely would not buy from Marriott with the intent to trade for points now. This program is not an enhancement!


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## labguides (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm glad we have used lots of our Marriott points this year.  We decided that saving them was not wise.. better to use them.
I expect United FF and AX points to de-value their points also. We have used most of our United FF, but have lots of AX points. The AX points seem harder to use.


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## Dave M (Oct 21, 2008)

*Big changes to Marriott Rewards program coming January 15....*

[This post was originally in its own thread.]

*Good News*
Blackout dates will be eliminated, meaning that every hotel (except as noted below) will have some standard awards available for every night. You still might not be able to get what you want if someone else beats you to the few standard awards you want for the dates/hotel you want. There are some exceptions. MVCI properties, three Marriotts (Rome Grand Flora, Waikoloa Beach and Wailea Beach) and two JWs (Camelback and Capri) will still have blackout dates. The higher cost Stay Anytime awards are being eliminated.

The points bonus for Platinum members will be increased from 30% to 50%.

Marriott will change the way hotel awards are priced. One change will make the fifth redemption night free if you pay points for four nights.

*Bad News*
As you might expect, many/most of the changes are not good for us....

A new Category 8 will be created with 14 hotels moving up to that category. 

Our favorite and most lucrative awards – the Hotel/Air Travel Packages - are going up in cost - significantly!! Samples for seven nights and 120,000 FF miles:
Category 1-5: From the current 235,000 points to 270,000 points
Category 6: From 250,000 points to 300,000 points
Category 7: From 270,000 points to 330,000 points
New category 8: 360,000 points

Other than the “fifth night free”, the current discount for ordering a hotel award for multiple nights is being eliminated. Thus, a three-night stay in a category 7 hotel, which currently costs 90,000 points, will now cost 105,000 points. A seven-night stay in a Category 7 hotel, which currently costs 150,000 points, will now cost 210,000 points (six nights @ 35,0000 points per night + one night – the fifth night – free).

Note that, as stated in the title of this thread, all changes are effective January 15, 2009. That means that any Reward reservations booked by January 14 will be honored under the current point structure.

Here is a link to the forthcoming changes to Marriott Rewards. Marriott Rewards members with a valid e-mail address in their profiles should receive an e-mail message about the changes soon. (I don’t have a definition for “soon”!)

*Devaluation is to be expected*
The adverse changes are not at unexpected. It has been several years since Marriott has made a major devaluation overhaul to the program. So it was time. And, as demonstrated in my Ridiculous "Devaluation Example" in this past post it's essential that Marriott make such devaluations from time to time.


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## LAX Mom (Oct 21, 2008)

What are AX points?


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## labguides (Oct 21, 2008)

What are AX points?

American Express


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## Dave M (Oct 21, 2008)

I see Bill posted his message while I was composing mine. Thus, I have combined the two threads.


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## LAX Mom (Oct 21, 2008)

I know Marriott must devalue the points over time to compensate for inflation. However, there were things about the old program I preferred.

I liked the travel packages, especially the Europe sampler package. I suspect this may no longer be available, or will cost considerably more. It has been 150,000 points, but will likely increase to 240,000 (6 nights at 40,000, one free) if they still offer it. That is a big jump!

I liked being able to reduce your points per night by increasing your stay to a 7 night stay. Now you only get that benefit with a 5 or 10 night stay. Anything else and you pay a preminum per night. 

I'm gold, not platinum with Marriott so the 50% bonus on points doesn't help me.

I've never used the "stay anytime" awards, they were too expensive for me. So that "enhancement" doesn't help me either.  

I don't like the new program and will probably switch from my Marriott VISA to a card that has a cash rebate.


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## Latravel (Oct 21, 2008)

As was posted, this was expected.  I was looking for airfare next summer to Paris and the lowest coach was $1600.  Therefore, I expected that the number of points needed for the airfare would consequently increase.   It would be unreasonable to think that everything around us is increasing in price, except the number of points needed to "purchase" a travel package.  Unfortunately, it is the sign of the times as much as I really dislike it.

Marriott is not the only company who is devaluating points - so is American Airlines.  Does that mean you won't use any frequent flyer programs?  Your other option is paying inflated airfare for even coach.  This is just a new reality for travelers, unfortunately.


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## lovearuba (Oct 21, 2008)

*I see it as a positive change, well somewhat*

HI
I have enough points often enough to book a hotel stay but I generally seem to be selecting hotels that do not accept the reward points for those stays.  So for me, I see this as a good thing.  Of course there is the issue with it costing a lot more points but it didnt help when I couldnt use the points so I do see a positive side.  Cant wait to book my next vacation week just hope I still have enough points.  

Thanks for this post


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## stevens397 (Oct 21, 2008)

Okay -here goes.  Posted these thoughts on the Starwood forum following their most recent devaluation and as a Marriott owner, it applies here too.

Fine, they need to devalue their points.  But there was a sense when we bought our timeshares from the developer that we were also getting the chance to get a certain number of hotel nights for free in lieu of using our timeshare.  It is inexcusable, to me, for Marriott not to adjust the points value of our timeshare when they have this valuation.  My 100,000 points gets worth less all the time and they don't seem to see the connection or feel responsibility to their stakeholders.


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## rdh1947 (Oct 21, 2008)

I am very unhappy with these changes.  This December we will be using our fourth travel package to stay at the Marco Island Resort.  I am going to do some serious thinking about continuing in the rewards program.  We have used our Monarch week for points every year, but it may not be worth it anymore.  I would like to see how the hotels will be reclassified.  The Marco Island Resort was a class 6.  Will it and other 6's be moved up to 7?  If so, the new travel package(with 120,000 ff miles) to go there would be a more then 30% cost increase(250,000 points to 330,000).


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## Big Matt (Oct 21, 2008)

I know people are really upset about this, but I personally have been so very frustated with the blackout dates and stay anytime rewards, that I've not used the points as much as I could have.

I'm very happy about having a more even playing field regarding the availability of standard rewards across the properties.

Also, even with the point increase for travel packages, the deal is still the best, and with airline prices up so high, I think the "value" per point is still there.


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## Zac495 (Oct 21, 2008)

I agree with Stevens
If they're going to change the travel package, the points for our timeshares should go up. Why don't they? That seems beyond wrong. But maybe I'm wrong. Why would it be okay? It basicall devalues our timeshares. And do you think Marriott may up the exchange amount for future customers only?


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## dioxide45 (Oct 21, 2008)

Zac495 said:


> I agree with Stevens
> If they're going to change the travel package, the points for our timeshares should go up. Why don't they? That seems beyond wrong. But maybe I'm wrong. Why would it be okay? It basicall devalues our timeshares. And do you think Marriott may up the exchange amount for future customers only?



Marriott only sees the exchanging for points option as a sales tool. Nothing more, nothing less. I do think their sales tactics are misleading.


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## Armada (Oct 21, 2008)

One area that was not covered in the information released so far is what the new 'cost' will be for stays at MVCI properties.  I'm very interested in that.


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## tombo (Oct 21, 2008)

I guess since so many here feel that it is OK for Marriott to devalue the points agreement that was sold when they bought a week from the developer, then I guess it will also be fine for Marriott to devalue the week you purchased. If you bought platinum you now have gold. If you bought gold you now own bronze. After all, the economy has changed, and the dollar you paid with years ago is worth less. That scenario wouldn't be fair, just as what they are currently doing isn't right. They should sell all new weeks and new points under the new rules, but they should grandfather previous points owners under the rules that existed when they purchased. Marriott will not do this of course because they already have your money and a signed contract saying they can change anything they want to change, but guaranteeing owners that they would continue to receive what they were sold would be the right thing to do.

PS  I know that Marriott can't control the air line prices so that obviously would have to be adjusted. However Marriott controls 100% of what the motels charge and they should not change the number of nights you can stay at a category x resort from the number of nights you could stay when you bought. If they want to increase the number of points to stay in a resort, then they should increse the number of point you get annually to equal the value of the points when you originally purchased IMO.


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## Pens_Fan (Oct 21, 2008)

And the stock market should never go down.

And the price of oil should never go up.

And my truck shouldn't depreciate.


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## kjd (Oct 21, 2008)

I don't like these changes either but there has to be some expected devaluation due to inflation and the cost of doing business.  It has been stated here on TUG for several months.  Marriott can eliminate any negative effect on their sales simply by increasing the purchase incentives.  

Additionally, all plat card members receive an increase in bonus points to 50% from 30%.  This is a help in offsetting the devaluation.  As I see it the big losers are the cardholders that accumulated a lot of Marriott points but didn't use them.  In accounting terms, this has potentially created a large unfunded liability for Marriott and maybe that also entered into their decision to change the program.  Time will tell if it is smart business for making these changes.  I personally don't intend on making any changes in the selection of Marriott Rewards as my major credit card program.


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## tombo (Oct 21, 2008)

Pens_Fan said:


> And the stock market should never go down.
> 
> And the price of oil should never go up.
> 
> And my truck shouldn't depreciate.



You still would own the same amount of stock that you bought, they couldn't decrease the number of shares. If a company increases their number of shares, they have to increase the number of shares owned by all current owners. Companies have no control over the stock market, Marriott has 100% control over how they honor the values of the points packages they sold.

If you bought a contract giving you 1000 gallons of oil a year, you would still receive 1000 gallons of oil annually regardless of the economy.

You would still own the truck which got older just like the Mariott resorts are getting older. Are they charging less for rooms at 20 year old resorts since they are no longer new? No, the only thing valued less at older Marriott resorts are the points they sold there.

The difference in their devaluation is that they said you will get x number of points a year with your purchase which will get you 21 nights a year in a class x motel. They are changing what you purchased by reducing the number of nights at a class x motel from 21 to 15 annually (for example). You no longer have what you purchased and it is by Marriott's own choice that they reduced the value of what you purchased. They and they alone decide what a point at their hotels are worth. It is simply a rip-off of owners to benefit Marriott.


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## Dave M (Oct 21, 2008)

kjd said:


> Additionally, *all plat card members* receive an increase in bonus points to 50% from 30%.


That change in bonus points is for elite Platinum members of the Marriott Rewards program - those who stay at least 75 nights per year at Marriotts. There is no relationship between the change and Marriott credit card holders.


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## lll1929 (Oct 21, 2008)

I am very saddened to read about the new travel package point values.

Along with the creation of Cat 8, I too wonder about the shift of hotels from one category to another.  

I am sitting here trying to figure out if it's best to try and redeem points for one last low value package (250,000 cat 6 and 120000 miles) or to accept the new structure and know it will take longer for me to earn that same package after Jan.  To redeem now, I would have to purchase 50000 pts in Dec 08 and again in Jan 09 which is $1250.00.  The more I think about it, the more I feel like it's NOT worth it.

I have never exchanged my week for points and at this rate, I never will.  

I know everyone is changing their rewards packages, but I think this is an extreme change.  Far worst that the American Airline changes.  

I am truly bummed. :annoyed:


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## Pens_Fan (Oct 21, 2008)

I don't think that the salesperson ever promised me that the amount of points that I could trade my week for (or that were given as an incentive) would always be able to purchase the same amount of nights forever.

I'm sure that they showed me an example of what they could get me at the time of sale, not what they could get me forever.  That would be like thinking my paycheck would always be able to purchase the same amount of goods.

It's just not practical.

Do I like it?  Of course not, but you deal with an ever changing economy.


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## thinze3 (Oct 21, 2008)

I bought my first Marriott resale and my second from Marriott. The thinking was that would be able to take that 1st class trip to Europe every few (or more) years using my MR points.

My second honeymoon (25th anniversary) to Europe in summer 2010 was to be done using TWO Marriott Cat 7 travel packages totalling 540K points. I will have about 590K points after purchasing 100K points direct from Marriott in January. With the newest changes, using travel packages for this trip is now out of question!

I can't tell you how disappointed I am.

I WISH I HAD NEVER BOUGHT FROM MARRIOTT!  


Terry


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## wa.mama (Oct 21, 2008)

Goodbye to our Marriott Visa.


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## Jpollo (Oct 21, 2008)

How come so many folks are surprised by this? Every point membership program I've belonged to over the years has experienced point "inflation".  You kinda have to expect it.

DVC is explicit about this... that point requirements for hotels and cruises will go up over time. I imagine it's addressed somewhere in the Marriott program details as well.

Jason


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## thinze3 (Oct 21, 2008)

Jpollo said:


> How come so many folks are surprised by this? Every point membership program I've belonged to over the years has experienced point "inflation".  You kinda have to expect it.
> 
> DVC is explicit about this... that point requirements for hotels and cruises will go up over time. I imagine it's addressed somewhere in the Marriott program details as well.
> 
> Jason



There is a difference between points deflation and totally revamping the system, which is what they are doing. Also, for timeshare owners, some of our points deflation is built in to the annual cost of our maintenence fees. $750 MF from 3 years ago are gone and are now replaced with $1000 in the mainland, while $1100 MF's are replace with $1500+ in Hawaii.

So essentially a 150K point Cat 7 for 7 days that used to cost 1.5 years of MFs would have cost $1125. Now that same room is 210K points and costs 2.1 years of MFs at a cost of $2100.  This is assuming that that hotel has not been upgraded to a Cat 8 which would make the cost $2400.

*IN THREE YEARS!!*


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## CMF (Oct 21, 2008)

wa.mama said:


> Goodbye to our Marriott Visa.




I still like it for the free hotel stay every year - anything more is gravy.


Charles


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## LilMsFoodie (Oct 21, 2008)

Your stays at the timeshare accrue to the nights.  I am a Platinum member and just got a letter today regarding the new points.  I do not want my timeshare anymore but I might as well trade for points if this new rule applies.  At least I'll get something for the money spent.  I prefer full service hotels and it took owning a timeshare to finally understand that.  A friend just took $5k for their Grand Vista so I fully expect the prices to continue falling.


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## Latravel (Oct 21, 2008)

Saying you'll never buy from Marriott or use the Marriott Visa really only hurts yourself.  EVERYTHING and every program has gone up in price.  Your only other option is paying for trips using a lot more cash vs. waiting longer to accumulate more points for FREE trips.

As much as I dislike it, it's still the better value.  It's interesting, though, how so many people here that put down the value of points in the past are now so upset.  I remember so many posts here where people stated that points are not important to them.


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## Pens_Fan (Oct 21, 2008)

Points are not overly important to me.

I don't purchase them, I don't trade my timeshare for them.

If I pick up points here and there for the charges I make on my Marriott Visa (which is paid off in full at the end of each month), that allows me to get a free night at a hotel when I go to a hockey or baseball game then so be it.

Other than that, I could care less.


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## rsackett (Oct 21, 2008)

Latravel said:


> Saying you'll never buy from Marriott or use the Marriott Visa really only hurts yourself.  EVERYTHING and every program has gone up in price.  Your only other option is paying for trips using a lot more cash vs. waiting longer to accumulate more points for FREE trips. ...



One always has choices in life!  Saying that you will never buy from Marriott, is not the same thing as saying that you will never own a Marriott.  This change just makes buying resale that much more attractive.

The Marriott Visa is less valuable that it was last week because of this change.  For some it will now make more sence to get a card that offers rebates, or some other form of kick-back.

Ray


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## iamnotshopgirl (Oct 21, 2008)

OK I'm getting the part where Marriott Rewards has increased the points necessary for obtaining different catagories for hotels/flights packages. So what is the value of a point? Is it still .0125 or is it now less? Or does it just cost more in points to obtain the different rewards levels? I do not trade my t/s for points because with the last devaluation it was not worth it for me to do. However, if Marriott is charging more in points for resorts (upping their end) how is it FAIR to owners at the other end who are locked in at their contract levels? I also get the part where Marriott is a Corperation and is in the business of making a profit for it's shareholders. Since the owners already paid their hard earned $$$$$$$ they matter little.


bob


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## Jpollo (Oct 21, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> There is a difference between points deflation and totally revamping the system, which is what they are doing.
> *IN THREE YEARS!!*



And you're surprised by this? Just increasing point requirements would be too ham-handed of an approach.

Point deflation isn't just increasing point requirements. Altering tier structures, applying more fees, initiating more restrictions, etc. all go into the mix of making the bottom line cost higher.  In a few years I would expect the next move by Marriott to deflate points will be to re-instate blackout periods.

That's why points never appealed to me because Marriott and every other reward program will continually deflate the value of the points over time.


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## Jpollo (Oct 21, 2008)

wa.mama said:


> Goodbye to our Marriott Visa.



I called to cancel ours last month. In response they dropped the interest rate from 15 to 10% (we typically pay it off each month... but it's nice to have the lower rate for those times we do carry a balance for a couple months.)

They also gave me 3,000 points to keep it open.

So I took them up on the offer and will cancel in a couple of months before the next annual fee.

So you might try to eek out a couple of benefits before you actually cancel.


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## gregloucks (Oct 21, 2008)

*Existiing Travel Package Certificate*

I can't see in the announcement how existing travel package certificates will be handled.  For example, if you have an exixting category 7 travel package certificate, will that still get you a week at a category 7 hotel for a post 1-15-09 reservation?  If not, how will it be valued?


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## LAX Mom (Oct 21, 2008)

I understand that Marriott has to make changes to the points over the years. Dave has written some very logical posts about the effect of inflation on points and free hotel stays. 

However, I object to the changes in the points requirements. I prefer an incentive for longer (7 night trips) in the current program. It now costs 35,000 per night in a category 7 hotel, 150,000 for a 7 night stay. Under the new program, the 35,000 doesn't change but it now costs 210,000 for the 7 night stay. That's because they don't give you a discount on additional nights like they currently do. Well, there is a discount at 5 or 10 nights, but not for any other stay. 

So for people who like to use a free night occassionally there isn't much difference in the new program, except the category 8 properties. 

For other, like me, who prefer a longer stay or a travel award there is a big jump in points!!

I would prefer they kept the program the same and adjusted the points across the board, maybe by 20%. 

As far as I know, Marriott has not changed the purchase price of .0125 per point. Even at that rate I paid cash (around $320 per night) in Copenhagen  last summer because the points would have cost 55,000, or $687. It was pretty close to equal in price and I decided I'd rather pay cash and earn more points.

There are other options to a Marriott VISA. You can earn cash rebates or airline miles. So unless I think the MR points are a good value, I'll opt for cash on another card.


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## nygiants11991 (Oct 21, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> I'm gold, not platinum with Marriott so the 50% bonus on points doesn't help me.



Can someone please tell me what this benefit is?


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## LAX Mom (Oct 21, 2008)

gregloucks said:


> I can't see in the announcement how existing travel package certificates will be handled.  For example, if you have an exixting category 7 travel package certificate, will that still get you a week at a category 7 hotel for a post 1-15-09 reservation?  If not, how will it be valued?



I've read the new info a couple of times and it isn't entirely clear. They didn't address outstanding certificates, only outstanding reservations.  

I think you need to actually make a reservation at a hotel before Jan. 15. If you make your reservation after that, it's possible you'll be required to come up with the additional points for the nights you want.

I'm sure many others are wondering the same thing. I have a reservation for March with a cert. attached from a travel package. What happens if I decide to go somewhere else? Can I use that cert for another category 5 hotel? Will I have to pay more points to switch hotels or dates?


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## LAX Mom (Oct 21, 2008)

nygiants11991 said:


> Can someone please tell me what this benefit is?



Marriott rewards has different levels of membership, based on your annual number of nights stayed at Marriott properties. 

Silver = 15 nights
Gold = 50 nights
Platinum = 75 nights
Platinum Elite = ?

If you get an Marriott VISA (I think it's the Premier card) you get 15 nights, so automatic silver status.


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## Bill4728 (Oct 21, 2008)

We finalized our trip to Europe with the european sampler (7 days in 2 or 3 hotels for 150K /pts) a couple of months ago for travel next April.  It sure looks like a good move now since we'll be staying in 2 of the new cat 8 hotels.


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## pianodinosaur (Oct 21, 2008)

I am at the Marriott Rewards Silver Level.  I do not own a Marriott TimeShare.  I was hoping to have accumulated enough points next year for a stay at the Marbella or Mallorca resort in 2010.  However, the new change will require 210,000 points instead of 150,00 points.  There goes our TS stay in the Marriott Marbella Resort. I view this as a major devaluation of my Marriott Rewards Points.  

The reason I choose a hotel is a function of location and the reason for my trip.  This does not mean that I will avoid Marriotts in the future.  However, the Marriott rewards is no longer offers any significant advantages over Starwood Preferred nor can it compete with Hilton Honors as an incentive program.

As of this point in time, I cannot predict what impact it will have on my business travel or how other members of Marriott Rewards who do not own Marriott TSs will respond.


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## thinze3 (Oct 21, 2008)

rsackett said:


> One always has choices in life!  Saying that you will never buy from Marriott, is not the same thing as saying that you will never own a Marriott.  This change just makes buying resale that much more attractive....
> 
> 
> Ray



I agree about the resale which is why I wish I had not bought my second unit from Marriott. If Marriott is going to charge more money for rooms, the argument is that they should "charge more points." I do understand this.

But if Marriott also is charging more to rent the rooms at your timeshare and also charge more for the MFs, should they not also give you more points to be able to get a comparable room. Shouldn't 7 days in a 2BR Maui timeshare be at least equal to 7 days in a 400sf Marriott hotel room in NYC?

*With this new system 7 nights at your local Courtyard will cost you more points than trading in your 2 BR Maui timeshare for points.*


Terry


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## applegirl (Oct 21, 2008)

Pens_Fan said:


> I don't think that the salesperson ever promised me that the amount of points that I could trade my week for (or that were given as an incentive) would always be able to purchase the same amount of nights forever.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Yes, but it's just one more misleading sales tactic to people who may or may not understand how a reward points program works.  When you go through the sales pitch they tell you that every so many years you could take this great travel package if you turn your week in for XXXX points.  They make it sound like it will be forever.
> ...


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## applegirl (Oct 21, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> With this new system 7 days at your local couryard will cost you more points than trading in your 2 BR Maui timeshare for points.
> Terry





Ouch!..................That's pretty bad.
   



Janna


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## CMF (Oct 21, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> I agree about the resale which is why I wish I had not bought my second unit from Marriott. If Marriott is going to charge more money for rooms, the argument is that they should "charge more points." I do understand this.
> 
> But if Marriott also is charging more to rent the rooms at your timeshare and also charge more for the MFs, should they not also give you more points to be able to get a comparable room. Shouldn't 7 days in a 2BR Maui timeshare be at least equal to 7 days in a 400sf Marriott hotel room in NYC?
> 
> ...




It's OK Terry, they'll make it all up to you with the revamped, Marriott direct purchaser enhanced, reservation system that's coming out any day now. 

Charles


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## thinze3 (Oct 21, 2008)

CMF said:


> It's OK Terry, they'll make it all up to you with the revamped, Marriott direct purchaser enhanced, reservation system that's coming out any day now.
> 
> Charles




NO. But what is OK, is the fact that my MLE developer purchased unit traded fairly easily into a 2BR KoOlina for next summer!  (Most likely scenario is that there are plenty of units coming online there soon.)

Maybe next time I'll give the old Florida Club a try. Book Ocean Pointe in the winter and rent it out.  


Terry


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## pacheco18 (Oct 21, 2008)

Wow 
Timing is everything

Two weeks ago I booked a 250K package for next September!!!
Rome Grand FLora and air miles
Am I glad I did!


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## GetawaysRus (Oct 21, 2008)

OK, they change-uh the rules, so it will be necessary to reevaluate how we play-uh the game.  The game is still to maximize the benefit you get, even if the points have been devalued.

In the past, many have made use of the Travel Awards (7 night stay + airline miles).  Does this make as much sense now?

I currently carry both a Marriott Rewards VISA card and a Starwood AMEX card.  One nice benefit of the Starwood card is that you can (at least for now...) convert 20,000 Starwood points into 25,000 airline miles on many airlines.  But remember that, when you take a Marriott Travel Award package, it is one Marriott point that you are using to get one airline mile.

So, does it make sense for me to continue charging as much on my Marriott Rewards VISA, since it appears that the cost of the Travel Packages has gone up?  This has forced me in the past to make 7-night hotel reservations at some locations where I might have been content with a somewhat shorter stay.

Here is a new and different strategy:
If a location that I wish to visit is not really one that would support a full 7 night stay (i.e., there's not enough to do there to keep me interested for 7 days), would it be better to book a 5-night stay.  This would cost me 4 nights of Marriott Reward points and I'd get the 5th night "free."  I could switch my credit card usage pattern more towards the Starwood AMEX card and use my Marriott-branded VISA card far less.  That would allow me to accumulate Starwood points, which I could convert to airline miles and use towards airline awards.

What do you points mavens out there think of this?  What other new strategies for use of points make sense to others?


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## CA Richard (Oct 21, 2008)

Just a couple observations for what they're worth:

Re the Marriott VISA:  I can not understand why someone no longer thinks this is a good card to use.  I still see it as my most valuable card.  I'm earning more points than ever these days.  I use it for everything and earn thousands of points every month.  Inflation raises the cost of gas and groceries and I earn more points.  Room rates are up and I earn more points.  With the new +50% bonus for Platinum members I will earn even more points.  The new Premier VISA earns 5x points at Marriott properties instead of the 3x points that the old card earned, in addition to 2x points for travel and dining.  The new card gives credit for 15 nights and Marriott recently changed it's policy to give credit for nights at your home resort so Platinum is easier than ever to reach if you own a couple Marriott timeshares and travel a little for work as I do.  Since we're earning all these points so much more easily, it makes perfect sense that they would require more points for hotel stays.  The way I look at it is that I'm still getting everything I was getting before - rooms cost more points but i'm earning a lot more points so it seems to be about a wash.  Kind of like wages - you get a raise and make more money but the cost of things go up and you're able to buy about the same things you bought the year before.

The second issue is points trading value of timeshares.  This is where the devaluation of points is really going to hurt.  Personnally, I've never thought trading your unit for points was a good idea anyway, and this will just make it worse.  I remain a firm believer that you should, with very few exceptions, only buy a timeshare where you will actually use it.  This recent adjustment just reinforces that.

But I would like to pass on a recent interesting sales tactic I experienced at the Grand Chateau during an "owner update" sales tour earlier this year.  I bought our GC unit preconstruction (like most people, my one developer purchase before I discovered resale) and it carries a trading point value of 90,000 points.  As part of the purchase agreement if I agreed to buy a second unit there, the new unit would have a trading point value of 110,000 and they would also raise the trading point value on my existing unit from 90,000 to 110,000 as well to update it.  I had never heard of them doing that before!  I had no interest and did not purchase, but I thought the tactic was interesting and might be a valuable negotiating point for those who do buy from the developer for point trading purposes - it might be a way to get the point values up on your existing units.


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## jscboston (Oct 21, 2008)

tombo said:


> I guess since so many here feel that it is OK for Marriott to devalue the points agreement that was sold when they bought a week from the developer, then I guess it will also be fine for Marriott to devalue the week you purchased. If you bought platinum you now have gold. If you bought gold you now own bronze. After all, the economy has changed, and the dollar you paid with years ago is worth less. That scenario wouldn't be fair, just as what they are currently doing isn't right. They should sell all new weeks and new points under the new rules, but they should grandfather previous points owners under the rules that existed when they purchased. Marriott will not do this of course because they already have your money and a signed contract saying they can change anything they want to change, but guaranteeing owners that they would continue to receive what they were sold would be the right thing to do.
> 
> PS  I know that Marriott can't control the air line prices so that obviously would have to be adjusted. However Marriott controls 100% of what the motels charge and they should not change the number of nights you can stay at a category x resort from the number of nights you could stay when you bought. If they want to increase the number of points to stay in a resort, then they should increse the number of point you get annually to equal the value of the points when you originally purchased IMO.



There is a fundamental difference between owning a timeshare week and participating in a rewards program.  When you buy a timeshare you are buying the legal right to use a particular kind of unit (season, size, etc) forever.  This right is backed by a deed and by a legally binding contract.  The contract prohibits the manager (Marriott in this case) or even the board from making any changes to the core usage rights.  (The board can change the rules and regs, but can't make fundamental changes to the usage rights).  

By contrast, hotel rewards points are a 'fake currency.'  There is no legally binding contract between the member and the hotel company.  Marriott can change its program, or completely eliminate it, any time they feel like it.  They change the program from time to time based on supply and demand, behavior of competitors (e.g. Starwood, Hilton), etc.  As for trading a timeshare week for hotel points, an owner should make a fresh decision every year whether they think it is a good deal depending on the 'points' rules at that time.  Hopefully no one who bought a timeshare week from the developer did so with the assumption that the rules would never change; anyone who did is bound to be disappointed.  

A corollary to this is that points-based timeshare programs (like HGVC) can never change the points that it takes to get a week at your home property.  I just bought a platinum week (7000 pts) at HGVC Flamingo  That will give me the right to a 2 BR unit for one week at that property from now until the end of time.  They can never raise the price to 8000 points because doing that would violate my deed ownership contract.  They can, however, charge more points for a week at their new property in Manhattan, as my Flamingo deed gives me no legal rights at the Manhattan property.


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## tombo (Oct 21, 2008)

I know that Marriott can't change a week from Platinum to Gold, it was an "imaginary scenario" I used to illustrate my point. I  said that Marriott has the right to change the points values anytime they want, any way they want, and for any reason they want to. I simply was stating that it isn't right, not that it is ilegal. The right thing to do would be to grandfather in the old points values or increase the points allocated annually to give owners the same value as they used to have. There is a big difference between what is legal and what is doing right by their customer.

I have been to several Marriott presentations and every time I was showed a chart explaining how many points I would get with my purchase annually, and how many nights the points would get me at various rated hotels. I never had a sales rep state that the points would of course be less valuable in the future and get me less nights in lower rated hotels. I know sales reps lie and I didn't buy the lies, however I am sure that many people thought that they were purchasing a lifetime week with the lifetime benefit of points as it was explained to them. Even though they aren't legally bound to do so, Marriott should grandfather people into points values that existed when they purchased from Marriott.  Points inflation costs should be easily covered by the inflated MF's at the resorts the owners purchased at.


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## thinze3 (Oct 21, 2008)

To me it is very simple. We bought Marriott timeshares that give you a set number of points every year in lieu of a 7 night stay. Now that every Marriott will require many more points for a 7 night stay (30-40% more), we should be offered a similar increase in points for our timeshares.


Terry


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## capjak (Oct 21, 2008)

I believe hilton did a similar thing where they increased the Timeshare to hilton honor point conversion ratio from about 10-15% and starwood gives 4* Elites a 10% boost when they trade their unit for hotel points.

Seems like Marriott should step up and do the same.


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## winger (Oct 21, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> To me it is very simple. We bought Marriott timeshares that give you a set number of points every year in lieu of a 7 night stay. Now that every Marriott will require many more points for a 7 night stay (30-40% more), we should be offered a similar increase in points for our timeshares.
> 
> 
> Terry


I agree.  Lots of us should convey our feelings to Marriott.  Any ideas how best to do this?


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## cp73 (Oct 22, 2008)

It looks like to me that with the hotel stays there is no break in the number of nights until you hit the fourth night. Then the fifth night is free. So nights 1-3 are all at the same number of points per night and there is no break until you reserve that fourth night. Thats also a big change....


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## ondeadlin (Oct 22, 2008)

Sometimes I think there are people on this forum who, if Marriott came to their house, cleaned out their fridge and kicked the dog on the way out the door would immediately post on TUG, "That's OK, let me show you how valuable it is because first-class tickets to Europe cost $10,000!"

These latest "enhancements" are nothing more than a massive devaluation for those who bought developer.

There is almost no logical case to be made now for trading for points or buying for points. The value is just not there compared to the MF cost. Oh, and there's much, much less of a case for buying points as well.

The Marriott Visa card? A joke now when you compare return-on-spend to a card such as the Delta Amex.

The only people who benefit from these changes are high-stay business travelers. If you're in that class, congrats. If you're not, Marriott just worked you over.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 22, 2008)

cp73 said:


> It looks like to me that with the hotel stays there is no break in the number of nights until you hit the fourth night. Then the fifth night is free. So nights 1-3 are all at the same number of points per night and there is no break until you reserve that fourth night. Thats also a big change....



Actually the break doesn't happen until you reserver five nights. The fifth night being free. If you only need to stay somewhere for four nights, there is no break for you.


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## pcgirl54 (Oct 22, 2008)

I own a Marriott non points week and stayed at Marriott hotels to earn pts. I never wanted to give up a week for points so it never mattered to me. I do enjoy our Marriott week.

I just paid off my Marriott Visa (hooray) and used the last of my MAR cc pts for a mini vacation. I was thinking of closing the account. With the new changes I have my answer since it would take forever to earn enough pts for a hotel stay it is not a value to have that card.

I primarily use Amex charge card. Not all vendors take Amex.

Glad they are eliminating the stay anytime tier.


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## Zac495 (Oct 22, 2008)

Latravel said:


> Saying you'll never buy from Marriott or use the Marriott Visa really only hurts yourself.  EVERYTHING and every program has gone up in price.  Your only other option is paying for trips using a lot more cash vs. waiting longer to accumulate more points for FREE trips.
> 
> As much as I dislike it, it's still the better value.  It's interesting, though, how so many people here that put down the value of points in the past are now so upset.  I remember so many posts here where people stated that points are not important to them.



There are some people who bought RESALE who say points don't matter to them. There are others who bought developer either before or after finding TUG for the points. I have stated that I don't think it's worth buying directly from Marriott for points based on the fact that you can buy them directly AND that they're becoming harder and harder to use. Other smarter Tuggers point out what the cost per point vs. cost and loss of future earnings (and other such complicated financial matters).

But many Tuggers like the points - some aquire via purchasing them per year - and those people can choose to stop buying them. Those of us who deliberately bought our timeshares for points - I was told - every other year I would have enough points for a travel package, category 6/7 (just about - 220K per year - need to aquire 30 more - easy with a credit card).

So think about it - if that was the sole reason I bought it - I would vacation every other year - then I now no longer have what I bought. That doesn't happen in any other scenerio. PRICES go up - it costs more to buy gas now. If Marriott raised the price to convert points (by a reasonable margin - let's say from 100 to 150), I would understand that. I still get my every other year vacation, but I have to pay a little more for it. 

It's not right. I'm going to email my salesman and see what is being said on the sales end.


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## Zac495 (Oct 22, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> I've read the new info a couple of times and it isn't entirely clear. They didn't address outstanding certificates, only outstanding reservations.
> 
> I think you need to actually make a reservation at a hotel before Jan. 15. If you make your reservation after that, it's possible you'll be required to come up with the additional points for the nights you want.
> 
> I'm sure many others are wondering the same thing. I have a reservation for March with a cert. attached from a travel package. What happens if I decide to go somewhere else? Can I use that cert for another category 5 hotel? Will I have to pay more points to switch hotels or dates?



Yikes - I have 2 certs that I haven't attached to my reservation yet. I'd better do it before January! 

If only Hilton had more locations - such a good deal and easy to book.


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## aka Julie (Oct 22, 2008)

Zac495 said:


> It's not right. I'm going to email my salesman and see what is being said on the sales end.



Please report back if you hear from him.  I would love to hear the "spin" they put on this.  Marriott is surely not helping the sales people during this economic downturn.

We're going to be at Grand Chateau next month.  Won't seek to do a sales presentation, but if asked, we might go just for the heck of it just to see how the sales people are approaching it now.


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## iamnotshopgirl (Oct 22, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> To me it is very simple. We bought Marriott timeshares that give you a set number of points every year in lieu of a 7 night stay. Now that every Marriott will require many more points for a 7 night stay (30-40% more), we should be offered a similar increase in points for our timeshares.
> 
> 
> Terry



I agree Terry exactly what I tried to say in a previous post on this thread. But it does not matter what we (owners) think. Marriott is a business and they are going to change programs (rental, points) with little regard to the owner. 

bob


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## wuv pooh (Oct 22, 2008)

aka Julie said:


> Please report back if you hear from him.  I would love to hear the "spin" they put on this.  Marriott is surely not helping the sales people during this economic downturn.



There is no "spin".  Marriott is taking care of the use patterns of their core business customers, not leisure customers.  They believe that business people primarily want to extend their stays by one or two nights, or stay 5 nights, but rarely go for 7 nights.  If you have tried to get a hotel room in Chicago or NY and had to pay $400-$600 per night for a standard room you would see the value in the points and the no blackouts.

The reality is that Hilton and Starwood already greatly devalued their points program in years past.  Marriott is the last one to devalue of the majors in this cycle.  They are also making it easier to earn points - I just got ~ 20,000 for a 4 night stay because of a 10,000 point bonus and the new platinum bonus for core customers will help.

When I started timesharing 8 years ago the trade for points was fair, but still not as attractive as using your week.  Read about that and you could get an around the world package for 200,000 before the devaluation before this devaluation  

Having a fixed value of points with rising maintenance fees has made the points trade very unattractive now.  I would not even consider it unless I needed a quick top off for a much bigger International trip.  It will be interesting to see how MVCI responds because they will need to increase the points offered or impose an additional restriction on resales if they want to get the redemptions or compete against resale.


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## Lawlar (Oct 22, 2008)

*Marriott White Lies*

I haven't posted about this topic yet because I am too angry.  But I just received Marriott's email about how they are "improving" the Rewards system.  Their average customer who just reads the email will think that Marriott is offering them a wonderful deal.  They won't realize that their points just got devalued.  With Marriott the truth is always in the fine print.

Here is their email:

_We appreciate your business. And to prove it, we're making Marriott Rewards® even better.
Starting January 15th, say goodbye to blackout dates*. It's our way of saying "thank you for staying with us." One of many program enhancements to, well, enhance your rewards.
Plus, these new benefits are coming your way: 
Redeem 4 nights, get 5th Redemption night free. Use your Marriott Rewards points to stay for 4 redemption nights and get the 5th redemption night free.
Check out the new Platinum bonus. If you're a Platinum Elite member, your bonus will increase from today's 30% to a 50% bonus on points earned during stays._


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## cp73 (Oct 22, 2008)

dioxide45 said:


> Actually the break doesn't happen until you reserver five nights. The fifth night being free. If you only need to stay somewhere for four nights, there is no break for you.



Your right dioxide.....thanks


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## Steve A (Oct 22, 2008)

I can book 300 days out from the January cut off date and still get it at the older rates? Right?

I know this hurts, but people complained just as bitterly the last round. What  I resent is the way it was presented as if it was some bonus for us. That rankled.


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## LAX Mom (Oct 22, 2008)

Steve A said:


> I can book 300 days out from the January cut off date and still get it at the older rates? Right?
> 
> I know this hurts, but people complained just as bitterly the last round. What  I resent is the way it was presented as if it was some bonus for us. That rankled.



As I understand it (the Marriott site only talks about reservations made prior to Jan. 15 still being valid) you can redeem points prior to Jan. 15 for a travel package and then use that hotel certificate for 1 year. 

So if you have a hotel cert issued prior to the change, you should be able to use it for a full year. I don't think they'll extend the expiration anymore.


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## fnover (Oct 22, 2008)

*Marriott Rewards "enhansment"*



LAX Mom said:


> I know Marriott must devalue the points over time to compensate for inflation. However, there were things about the old program I preferred.
> 
> I liked the travel packages, especially the Europe sampler package. I suspect this may no longer be available, or will cost considerably more. It has been 150,000 points, but will likely increase to 240,000 (6 nights at 40,000, one free) if they still offer it. That is a big jump!
> 
> ...



My sentiments exactly, I used 7 night awards in cat. 7 hotels which were 150,000 points now the cost in points is 210,000. That is a 40% increase,I don't believe that inflation justifies this much of an increase. The increase in the bonus for platinum is of no benefit to me as I am lifetime gold.
Originally when I swapped my KBC unit for points, the 110,000 points bought 7 nights, if I remember correctly, (before categories) now it will only buy 3 nights, trading for points doesn't make sense any more unless Marriott does something to make it more attractive which I am sure they won't do. 
It is time to say goodbye to Marriott:


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## LAX Mom (Oct 22, 2008)

fnover said:


> Originally when I swapped my KBC unit for points, the 110,000 points bought 7 nights, if I remember correctly, (before categories) now it will only buy 3 nights, trading for points doesn't make sense any more unless Marriott does something to make it more attractive which I am sure they won't do.



Trading 7 nights in a 2 bedroom villa with kitchen for 110,000 points is crazy when that 110,000 won't even get you 3 nights in a category 8, barely 3 nights in a category 7. 

I recently almost bought a Marriott to trade for points every year. I'm so glad I didn't!! I bet the Marriott timeshare sale reps hate this new point structure. It really wipes out the benefit of purchasing from Marriott. With the prices on e-bay it would be very foolish to purchase from Marriott now.


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## tompk (Oct 22, 2008)

Don't know if this eases any of the pain, but found this on MVCI website.



We’ve created 5-night travel packages that include your hotel stay and airline miles. Travel to nearly 2,900 Marriott hotels worldwide* and choose how you get there.

For details about the Marriott Rewards program changes, please click here.

5-Night Travel Package Rewards for Marriott Vacation Club Owners

5 Nights in Hotel Category
 50,000 Airline Miles
 70,000 Airline Miles
 100,000 Airline Miles
 120,000 Airline Miles

1- 5 165,000  185,000 215,000  235,000  
6 180,000 200,000 230,000 250,000 
7 200,000 220,000 250,000 270,000  
8 230,000  250,000 280,000 300,000 

Participating Airlines (subject to change): Air Canada, Alaska Airlines, American Airlines, British Airways, Continental Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Frontier Airlines, Mexicana, Northwest, United Air Lines, US Airways, Varig Brasil, Virgin Atlantic


5 Nights in Hotel Category
 35,000 Airline Miles
 50,000 Airline Miles
 70,000 Airline Miles
 85,000 Airline Miles

1- 5 165,000  185,000 215,000  235,000 
6 180,000 200,000 230,000 250,000 
7 200,000 220,000 250,000 270,000  
8 230,000  250,000 280,000 300,000 

Participating Airlines (subject to change): Air Berlin, Air China, Air France/KLM, Alitalia, ANA, Asiana Airlines, Cathay Pacific, China Southern, Emirates, Jet Airways, LAN, Lufthansa/Miles & More, Qantas, Singapore Airlines, SN Brussels Airlines, TAP Air Portugal 


5 Nights in Hotel Category
 32 Credits
 48 Credits
 64 Credits
 80 Credits

1- 5 165,000  185,000 215,000  235,000 
6 180,000 200,000 230,000 250,000 
7 200,000 220,000 250,000 270,000  
8 230,000  250,000 280,000 300,000 

Participating Airlines (subject to change): Southwest


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## lll1929 (Oct 22, 2008)

tompk said:


> Don't know if this eases any of the pain, but found this on MVCI website.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can you provide a link to this information or verbal provide directions to this info once we are logged into our MVCI account.
Found the link:  When you are logged in to MVCI, click owner benefits and specials on the right side:

You will see Owner Special Highlight: Marriott Rewards Enhancements
On January 15, 2009, Marriott Rewards members may vacation without blackout dates, redeem 4 nights and get the 5th night free, and enjoy a 50% Platinum Elite Bonus. As a Marriott Vacation Club Owner, you will have the added benefit of 5-night travel packages. Click here for details.


I personally like the option of fewer days for the same points as before.  I know this is still a downer for heavy travelers, but for those of us in this for the occasional trip, this is soo much better than the 7 day travel packages effective 1/15/09.

Thanks


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## LAX Mom (Oct 22, 2008)

Tom-

I just found that info on the MVCI site and it looks like there are additional points charges on these 5 night packages. On the 7 night packages you take the hotel cost and add 120,000 points for the 120,000 miles. It's a 1 for 1 exchange.

However, this new table indicates a charge of 300,000 for 5 nights in a category 8 (4x40,000). The hotel portion should be 160,000 and 120,000 for the hotel would make it 280,000 not 300,000.

Same thing with the category 7 package. 4 nights (5th night should be free) at category 7 is 140,000 (4X35,000). Add 120,000 and the package should be 260,000, not 270,000.


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## LAX Mom (Oct 22, 2008)

Lora-
This is the link:

https://www.my-vacationclub.com/marriottrewards/default.jsp?cid=MR10436H

Once you have logged in, go to Owner Benefits & Specials and the link is at the bottom of the page.

I agree a 5 night package would be nice, but it looks like they are charging more points than they should, based on the 7 night package prices.


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## lll1929 (Oct 22, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> Lora-
> This is the link:
> 
> https://www.my-vacationclub.com/marriottrewards/default.jsp?cid=MR10436H
> ...



I think the rest of the points being charged are for the airline miles.


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## LAX Mom (Oct 22, 2008)

lll1929 said:


> I think the rest of the points being charged are for the airline miles.



Yes, but on the current travel packages and the new ones announced for Jan. 15, a 7 night stay package is the hotel cost plus 120,000 additional points for 120,000 airline miles.

In other words, the airline miles are awarded on a 1 for 1 basis. These 5 night packages available to MVCI owners charge more than 1 for 1 on the miles. It's an additional 20,000 on a category 8 package, 10,000 on a category 7 package.


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## ann824 (Oct 22, 2008)

This 5 night vacation package is interesting.  The posters on flyertalk are asking for this very thing to be available.  They are saying they would prefer them to reduce the nights to 5 rather than raise the points so much.  I guess they have to give some incentive to buy from developer.


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## alchook (Oct 22, 2008)

I'm not sure I find the new system so bad, if they do what they seem to be promising.

For instance, I've been thinking I'd like to stay at the South Beach Marriott using points. I've found that reservation to be nearly impossible to make in the high season. From what I can tell, to book it now would cost 240,000 points instead of 150,000. 

But it doesn't help much for the cost to be 150,000 points if the reservation is always unavailable.

The hotel charges $675/night, including tax. A seven night stay for 240,000 points works out to roughly 2 cents a point, which isn't bad.


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## tombo (Oct 22, 2008)

alchook said:


> I'm not sure I find the new system so bad, if they do what they seem to be promising.
> 
> For instance, I've been thinking I'd like to stay at the South Beach Marriott using points. I've found that reservation to be nearly impossible to make in the high season. From what I can tell, to book it now would cost 240,000 points instead of 150,000.
> But it doesn't help much for the cost to be 150,000 points if the reservation is always unavailable.
> The hotel charges $675/night, including tax. A seven night stay for 240,000 points works out to roughly 2 cents a point, which isn't bad.




People here always quote the highest most exorbitant Marriott room rates(like $675 a night) they can find to make the points sound good. These prices are straight off of the Marriott web site with reservations for 12-13 to 12-20 2008. This is not priceline or even special Marriott rates (no AARP, no gov't, no AAA). These are the standard rates. Prices range from $299 a night for a city view room to $449 a night (which drops to $419 on 12-14 for weekdays) for an oceanfront room with private balcony. 

When comparing the great points savings to room rates, take a minute to see what the rooms actually rent for, not what the Marriott salesmen tell you they rent for. You can also look for specials on travelocity, Priceline, hotels.com, etc. to find some good deals. Who would ever book a room using the highest rate you can find? I myself shop around everywhere on the web to get my lodging for the best price I can find. Using real prices the points needed don't seem like near as good of a deal, especially after the devaluation. Also, when you pay with cash instead of points you can easily get a room during peak seasons. Just enter your desired dates on the Marriott web site and check availability. With cash you aren't a second class customer fighting for the limited number of rooms available to those using points.

Select Rates  –  Step 2 of 6 
My Stay
South Beach Marriott 
161 Ocean Drive  
Miami Beach, FL 33139 USA


Check-in:  Saturday, December 13, 2008 
Check-out:  Saturday, December 20, 2008 
Number of rooms: 1 
Number of guests: 2 
Hotel Fact Sheet 
Maps & Transportation 
View Photo Tour Detail 

 1 of 35  
Sort by: 
Price Room Type Guest room, 1 King or 2 Double, City view, City view Room details 

329.00(USD)per night Rate rules Reserve a Room 
14 day advance reservation* Must book 14 days in advance* Overlooks construction adja.to the hotel* Limited 2 double beds 
The rate for this room changes on 12/14/2008 to 299.00(USD) per night 

Guest room, 1 King or 2 Double, City view, City view Room details 

359.00(USD)per night Rate rules Reserve a Room 
Deco view (Non-water view) * Maximize your value while staying on South Beach * 1 king or Limited 2 double beds * 
The rate for this room changes on 12/14/2008 to 329.00(USD) per night 

Guest room, 1 King or 2 Double, City view, City view Room details 

379.00(USD)per night Rate rules Reserve a Room 
Stay for Breakfast-for up to 2 adults and children 12 and under Standard Room (1 king or 2 double beds) 
The rate for this room changes on 12/14/2008 to 349.00(USD) per night 


Guest room, 1 King or 2 Double, Ocean view Room details 

419.00(USD)per night Rate rules Reserve a Room 
Coastline scene, Enjoy a magnificent Oceanview of South Beach Coast from your private balcony, 1 king or 2 double beds 
The rate for this room changes on 12/14/2008 to 389.00(USD) per night 


Guest room, 1 King or 2 Double, Oceanfront, Balcony Room details 

449.00(USD)per night Rate rules Reserve a Room 
Spectacular ocean front view from your private balcony, over- looking the beach, 2 Double beds & Limited kings 
The rate for this room changes on 12/14/2008 to 419.00(USD) per night


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## wuv pooh (Oct 23, 2008)

tombo said:


> People here always quote the highest most exorbitant Marriott room rates(like $675 a night) they can find to make the points sound good. These prices are straight off of the Marriott web site with reservations for 12-13 to 12-20 2008. This is not priceline or even special Marriott rates (no AARP, no gov't, no AAA). These are the standard rates. Prices range from $299 a night for a city view room to $449 a night (which drops to $419 on 12-14 for weekdays) for an oceanfront room with private balcony.



I believe the quote was referring to high season.  Dec 13 is probably one of the lowest demanded weeks of the year and the rates are $300+ + tax.  I would guess that high season is correspondingly higher.  Try pricing Easter week.  I agree that people do overvalue the benefit sometimes, but making some rooms available for all times does add a significant value if you can use it.  Also, most people don't like to mess with price line, private renters, etc. which provide the better deals.


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## tombo (Oct 23, 2008)

wuv pooh said:


> I believe the quote was referring to high season.  Dec 13 is probably one of the lowest demanded weeks of the year and the rates are $300+ + tax.  I would guess that high season is correspondingly higher.  Try pricing Easter week.  I agree that people do overvalue the benefit sometimes, but making some rooms available for all times does add a significant value if you can use it.  Also, most people don't like to mess with price line, private renters, etc. which provide the better deals.



Like I said everyone wants to quote the highest week of the year (Easter) which you will NEVER get using points. There might not be blackouts anymore, but during the highest demand weeks of the year I would doubt that they have more than one or two rooms available for points. Check frequent flyer miles availability on high travel dates and you won't find many (if any) of those either.

I disagree that the week before Christmas is a low demand week, but let me use Valentine's week in February (including Valentine's Day) for a high season example. Except for the Valentine's day rates (which is what so many points lovers want to quote), the other 6 days of the week are a low of $419 a night (with optional free meals for the kids) to $509 for an oceanfront room with a private balcony. The HIGHEST PRICE IS ON VALENTINE"S DAY for oceanfront with a private balcony is $689 (barely above the $675/night quoted previously). In addition, you would never get an oceanfront room w/ private balcony anytime (much less high season) for 240,000 points. I doubt you would ever be able to reserve Valentines Day week with points either, but even if you can, who can argue that this February week isn't one of the prime weeks of the year in Miami? I know that there are millions of people who like Priceline, Travelocity, and numerous other sites you can search to find the best deals by simply surfing the web. However, without even searching for a bargain I found these prices by simply typing in the dates on the Marriott web site. 

If I was traveling to South Beach, I would find much cheaper prices at the Marriott South Beach, or at a comparable resort by looking around on the internet for some good deals. I won't pay sticker price when I buy a car either, I shop around. I guess that is why I buy all of my timeshares re-sale too, I like to get the best deal I can when I am spending my hard earned money.


South Beach Marriott 
161 Ocean Drive  
Miami Beach, FL 33139 USA

Check-in:  Saturday, February 14, 2009 
Check-out:  Saturday, February 21, 2009 
Number of rooms: 1 
Number of guests: 2 
Hotel Fact Sheet 
Maps & Transportation 
View Photo Tour Detail 
                                                                                                           1 of 35  
Sort by: 
Price Room Type Guest room, 1 King or 2 Double, City view, City view Room details 

599.00(USD)per night Rate rules Reserve a Room 
Deco view (Non-water view) * Maximize your value while staying on South Beach * 1 king or Limited 2 double beds * 
The rate for this room changes on 02/15/2009 to 419.00(USD) per night 

Guest room, 1 King or 2 Double, City view, City view Room details 

599.00(USD)per night Rate rules Reserve a Room 
Escape Family Time Pkg * 1 king or 2 double beds * Includes freemeals for kids 12 under,accompanied by an adult on regular menu 
The rate for this room changes on 02/15/2009 to 419.00(USD) per night 

Guest room, 1 King or 2 Double, Ocean view Room details 

659.00(USD)per night Rate rules Reserve a Room 
Coastline scene, Enjoy a magnificent Oceanview of South Beach Coast from your private balcony, 1 king or 2 double beds 
The rate for this room changes on 02/15/2009 to 479.00(USD) per night 

Guest room, 1 King or 2 Double, Oceanfront, Balcony Room details 

689.00(USD)per night Rate rules Reserve a Room 
Spectacular ocean front view from your private balcony, over- looking the beach, 2 Double beds & Limited kings 
The rate for this room changes on 02/15/2009 to 509.00(USD) per night


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## Latravel (Oct 23, 2008)

Since when is $400-$500 a night for a hotel room as you quote, just small change?  I am grateful for points that allow me to stay in those rooms for just the cost of the points.  Yes, you can get rooms and airfare with points, it's been proven many times on this board.  You just need to plan ahead.  Now it appears that it should be easier without blackout dates.  The reality is the cost of hotel rooms have gone up considerably, hence the increase in the number of points to get them.


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## alchook (Oct 23, 2008)

_Except for the Valentine's day rates (which is what so many points lovers want to quote), the other 6 days of the week are a low of $419 a night (with optional free meals for the kids) to $509 for an oceanfront room with a private balcony._

$429/night is $2933/week, or, as far as I can tell, $3314 including tax.

At 240,000 points, that works out to 1.38 cents per point, which isn't a bad point return. 

The question, as I said, is whether there the availability they are promising will materialize. I'll admit to being pretty skeptical, but right now I have tons of miles and points that seem, at times, to be nearly impossible to use.

I'd probably trade off a higher point redemption rate for better availability.


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## tombo (Oct 23, 2008)

alchook said:


> _Except for the Valentine's day rates (which is what so many points lovers want to quote), the other 6 days of the week are a low of $419 a night (with optional free meals for the kids) to $509 for an oceanfront room with a private balcony._
> 
> $429/night is $2933/week, or, as far as I can tell, $3314 including tax.
> 
> ...



That $3314 for the week is still the rates for a prime Valentine's day weeks which will probably be hard if not impossible to get. A non peak week can be had for around $2500 inc tax  which is about 1 cent a point. 1.38 cents a point in February and 1 cent a point in December are a long way from the 2 cents to 3 cents a point people often quote here.

Believe me I would never say that $250 a night is a cheap room, much less $400 a night. I searched on every web site I could for a room in downtown Atlanta for the SEC championship game and the best I found was the Courtyard for $350 a night. That is way higher than I was hoping to pay but everything is sold out so I have to pay that rate. I have stayed at the same place on a regular non game weekend for $189 a night. Demand drives prices and of course location, location, location. 

I was simply pointing out that the savings (if any) of buying points or trading your week for points are often highly overstated here. To discuss 1 cent to 1.4 cent per point redemption rates would be a realisitic discussion. Of course it all comes down to how much you actually pay per point. How many points do you get for your week, and how much MF's did you pay for the week you gave up? If you spend $4000 in MF's for enough points to stay here a week it was not a deal. $3000 in MF's if you don't get a high demand season week is still not a deal. For $2000 in MF's it is a great deal. Use real figures and you can get real estimates on the value of points.


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## Latravel (Oct 23, 2008)

Geez, I still don't understand why people who put down the value of points as unimportant and almost worthless are soooo very upset that the points requirements have changed!   

Can someone please explain this to me?  I thought you didn't care!


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## thinze3 (Oct 23, 2008)

*Does "No blackout dates" mean points use if any room is available?*

I have a question about Marriott's 2009 Policy Changes. 

Marriott is touting the "No blackout dates" as a major selling point. But does "No blackout dates" mean you can always use points in lieu of cash if any room is available to be reserved? Or, are the number of rooms available to be used with points still limited to a small percentage?

This may be a play on words and only mean that certain dates that used to be blacked out are now available, but the number of rooms available for points use may be highly restricted.


Terry


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## Dave M (Oct 23, 2008)

Generally, you should be able to use points if a room is available. But for some special events (e.g., NASCAR, Super Bowl, major conventions, peak weeks, etc.) there will be limitations: 





> Hotels may limit the number of standard rooms available for redemption on a limited number of days.


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## IngridN (Oct 23, 2008)

Dave M said:


> Generally, you should be able to use points if a room is available. But for some special events (e.g., NASCAR, Super Bowl, major conventions, peak weeks, etc.) there will be limitations:



Dave, I've read somewhere that it's only if "standard rooms" are available.  I interpret that to mean you could not book for points if all the standard rooms have been booked and only view or other non-standard rooms are available. 

Any idea of how many "standard" vs. non-standard rooms Marriot hotels have or is that dependent upon the speficif hotel?  

Ingrid


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## rsackett (Oct 23, 2008)

Are "PointSavers" gone?

Ray


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## Dave M (Oct 23, 2008)

PointSavers will still be offered:





> PointSaver Rewards will continue to be offered at up to a 33% points discount off Hotel Rewards. PointSavers Rewards are available for limited time periods, and participation and availability of PointSavers Rewards are at the discretion of the hotel. Members can redeem their points for PointSavers Rewards at participating Marriott-brand hotels when available.


See the FAQs at the link in the first post in this thread for the answers to most questions about the changes.


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## Icarus (Oct 23, 2008)

Latravel said:


> Geez, I still don't understand why people who put down the value of points as unimportant and almost worthless are soooo very upset that the points requirements have changed!
> 
> Can someone please explain this to me?  I thought you didn't care!



If you explain to us why you insist on putting anybody down that says it's not worth it to pay developer prices just to get the points option.

I don't know about anybody else, but I never said that points are worthless. What I've said and other people have said, is that we don't think it's worth it to pay 2x - 3x resale prices just to get the points option. I don't think anybody said you couldn't get nice travel packages with those points. We do argue about their value, and that will be an ongoing argument, I'm sure. We're just going to have to disagree about how you value your travel packages.

No matter how you look at it, the number of points you get with the option is fixed at the time of purchase, and points get devalued over time.

If all you're looking for is an argument, go have it with somebody else. If you are willing to discuss it respectfully without putting anybody down that disagrees with your position, that's fine.

-David


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## davidvel (Oct 23, 2008)

This should be entertaining. I received the following e-mail from Marriott Rewards (as I am sure you all did):
*By now you know we've made big changes to Marriott Rewards ... so big, we're giving you access to the top. Ask questions, give feedback. Get the story straight from the Marriott Rewards team. 

It's an exclusive Insiders forum just for Elite members — your chance to discuss new program changes for 2009 including: 
No more blackout dates 
Redeem 4 nights, get the 5th redemption night free 
Platinum bonus becomes 50% on points earned during stays

Plus ... a video dialog with Ed French, Marriott Rewards SVP. He'll answer your questions and discuss how to make the most of your Rewards. 

This is a special forum to give you a direct connection to us. But the Insiders online community is still all about you. Share your thoughts, post your questions, get ideas for 2009.

Join the conversation! * 

The "Marriott Rewards Team" will rue the day they set up their own forums if the TUGs start posting there!


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## KathyPet (Oct 23, 2008)

Whoops!  Too Late!  I already did.


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## lll1929 (Oct 23, 2008)

I posted 2 questions today already on the marriott rewards insiders site.


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## Latravel (Oct 23, 2008)

I like that they are asking for feedback.   Do you think they might reconsider some changes after getting feedback?  If not, why are they asking for peoples opinions?


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## LAX Mom (Oct 23, 2008)

Latravel said:


> Do you think they might reconsider some changes after getting feedback?



Not a chance!!!

Edited to add....
1) they knew many people would be unhappy when they changed the redemption points structure
2) they've spent a lot of time preparing these changes
3) it was time for a points increase, it's been several years since the last one

I just don't think there is anyway they'll change back to the old system. We're stuck with this new program.


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## icydog (Oct 23, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> I bought my first Marriott resale and my second from Marriott. The thinking was that would be able to take that 1st class trip to Europe every few (or more) years using my MR points.
> 
> My second honeymoon (25th anniversary) to Europe in summer 2010 was to be done using TWO Marriott Cat 7 travel packages totalling 540K points. I will have about 590K points after purchasing 100K points direct from Marriott in January. With the newest changes, using travel packages for this trip is now out of question!
> 
> ...



I have a unique situation. I just bought two weeks at the new Marriott Reserve in Orlando. I opted to trade for points, for less than the cost of maintenance fees, for two years, for each contract. I did this because the resort will not be built by 2009 or 2010 either. Should I just not pay maintenance fees and not get points. I think that may be an option if they will let me change my mind that is.

I have all these points, and I bought these Marriott weeks specifically because of the points packages, and I haven't even got a deed yet. The weeks are obviously devalued and what am I doing?  I'm waiting for the paperwork to clear knowing they are worth less than what we paid and that the point packages, which they touted as being incredible-- are not that incredible after all. Now what? Will they take anything off the price? Will I get a refund because what they promised can no longer be? NOPE they'll do nothing.


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## GrayFal (Oct 23, 2008)

icydog said:


> I have to second this post. I was so looking forward to the use of our points and now I am at a loss what we will do going forward. I have a unique situation. I just bought two weeks at the new Marriott Reserve in Orlando. I opted to trade for points, for less than the cost of maintenance fees, for two years, for each contract. I did this because the resort will not be built by 2009 or 2010 either. Should I just not pay maintenance fees and not get points. I think that may be an option if they will let me change my mind that is.
> 
> I have all these points, and I bought Marriott specifically because of the points packages, and I feel I have been robbed. I haven't even got a deed and I am screwed. I'm waiting for the paperwork to clear but after that Ladies and Gentlemen I will have a carload of less valuable points. Now what? Will they take anything off the price? Will I get a refund because what they promised can no longer be? NOPE they'll do nothing.


I thought you were SELLING all your Marriott weeks?  

Anyway, you should be able to change those terms - tell them u decided to use your weeks instead of taking the points....or was the other option NOT to pay MFs until the resort was open?
That was the option we took when we purchased pre construction in Aruba. No MF until we could use the resort.

Call your salesperson.


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## musical2 (Oct 23, 2008)

I am glad I used my 540,000 points this year on two Category 7 packages.  I used them at the JW Marriott at Ko Olina for two rooms for one week (then moved over to the Ko Olina Beach club for our second week).  Plus it got me six airplane tickets to Oahu from the Washington DC area.  Next year it would have cost me 660,000 points for the same package.  That's a 22% jump, an extra 120,000 points.  I know I won't be turning in any more weeks for points in the future.  Also, when I buy another Marriott (if I buy another Marriott) it will not be from the developer.  They just made resale look much better.  

Bart


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## thinze3 (Oct 23, 2008)

GrayFal said:


> I thought you were SELLING all your Marriott weeks?  .....



I think she is selling 2 MMC units.


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## thinze3 (Oct 23, 2008)

*Stepping back to take look at the whole picture.*

In a roundabout way Marriott says they are doing what their Marriott Rewards members want, offer more availability.

How many people were able to go online and book a prime Marriott hotel at a prime time or season using "standard" Marriott awards. Yes, a small percentage of experienced MR rewards members (and Tug members) were able to make it work very well, knowing when and where to book to maximize their value. But many, if not most, MR rewards members probably found a dead end when trying to use MR points - either not getting the dates they wanted or having to pay double with "stay anytime" awards.

So, where is the compromise? The compromise is to raise the amount of points required but offer all dates and locations - no blackouts. The compromise is to offer a 5-day travel package to MVCI owners who just got devalued. The cost in terms of MR points is similar to the old 7-day packages, but again, there are no blackouts.  One can also add as many days as he likes at a set rate per day.

Platinum elite? I am 51 days away and will never be there so it is of no concern to me. Who knows, maybe Marriott will bring timeshare purchases into this similar to how Starwood does.

Anyhow, I am continuing to read and let this sink in. Though I don't like it, I feel a bit better about it today than I did yesterday.  

Terry


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## musical2 (Oct 23, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> In a roundabout way Marriott says they are doing what their Marriott Rewards members want, offer more availability.
> 
> How many people were able to go online and book a prime Marriott hotel at a prime time or season using "standard" Marriott awards. Yes, a small percentage of experienced MR rewards members (and Tug members) were able to make it work very well, knowing when and where to book to maximize their value. But many, if not most, MR rewards members probably found a dead end when trying to use MR points - either not getting the dates they wanted or having to pay double with "stay anytime" awards.
> 
> ...



When I booked the JW Marriott using standard rewards it was for the last week of June this past summer.  It wasn't hard.  I just called and asked for two connecting rooms.  They were available so I got them.  It just took a little bit of advance planning and coordination between finding the airline with standard FF miles (American in this case) and confirming with Marriott the rooms.  Maybe I just had beginner's luck.


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## Danette (Oct 24, 2008)

*Response to MVCI owners:*

In my email this morning:

As you may have heard, Marriott Rewards® has made exciting program enhancements, providing more flexibility to vacation when and where you want, which will go into effect in 2009. For information on these enhancements, please visit: Marriott.com/Rewards/No-Blackout-Dates.

You will be able to take advantage of these new enhancements after January 15, 2009, and can make your travel arrangements online.

As you are a new Owner, we are able to extend the use of the current Marriott Rewards program* until July 31, 2009.

Should you choose to use the current program after January 15, 2009, travel arrangements can only be booked through Owner Services via phone at 800-845-4226 and travel must commence by December 31, 2009.

For information on other program enhancements and travel packages, please visit: 
My-VacationClub.com/MarriottRewards. 

Sincerely, 



Vice President, Owner Services
Marriott Vacation Club International


*Please refer to your Marriott Rewards At-a-Glance in your Timeshare Ownership kit for current program details.


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## thinze3 (Oct 24, 2008)

Sounds like Marriott is trying to keep you happy just long enough for this to settle down a bit. Most likely they are receiving some tough emails and calls.

Terry


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## lll1929 (Oct 24, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> Tom-
> 
> I just found that info on the MVCI site and it looks like there are additional points charges on these 5 night packages. On the 7 night packages you take the hotel cost and add 120,000 points for the 120,000 miles. It's a 1 for 1 exchange.
> 
> ...




I submitted the following question on Marriott Insider and here is the response:
MVCI Package Question 
submitted: Oct 24, 2008 3:16 PM 
Question:

In the FAQ section regarding the 7 day travel package, it mentions airline miles being purchased at a 1-1 value to reward points.  Why is this NOT the case on the new 5 day travel packages being offered to MVCI members?  In doing the math, our airlines mile cost us more reward points?  Example: Cat 6 = 30,000 points / night times 4 nights (5th night free) equals 120,000 points.  If you choose the 50,000 miles, the total would be 170,000.  The cost based on the site is 180,000.  Shouldn't we pay 1-1 for the miles?

Answer:

Miles are a large expense for all travel packages and can only be offered at a reduced price because they are being packaged with a seven night hotel rewards.  You will notice that a mileage reward on its own ranges from a 5 to 1 to at best a 2.5 to 1 ratio.  The fewer nights that are packaged with the reward, the heavier the mileage burden.  Because of this, and other considerations, the price of the MVCI 5 night package has been made to mirror the price of the current seven night rewards.


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## lll1929 (Oct 24, 2008)

Here is another question I asked regarding existing packages (hotel portion)

Question: There have been several questions on other boards regarding current 7 day certificates.  Example, I have a current 7 day certificate from a travel package.  What happens to that certificate if it is not attached to a reservation on 1/15/09?  Will I be able to attach it to a 7day reservation after 1/15/09 if it's not expired?  Will it cost me additional points to attach it to a 7day reservation?  Will I be able to extend the certificate for 1 year.  Example, the current expiration date is 5/9/09.  Will I be allowed to extend it to 5/9/10?


Answer: The hotel portion of a travel package is different from other hotel rewards because it can sit in your account without being attached to a reservation.  If you have one of these rewards, you can rest assured it will not become worthless after January 15th.  These rewards are good for one year from the date of issuance and will be good even for reservation booked on or after January 15th as long you are staying before your certificate expires.


She didn't answer if they would offer extensions so I would say probably not.  If you have one that expires before you want to use it, attach it to a reservation before 1/15/09 and make sure they extend it when they attach it.


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## ondeadlin (Oct 25, 2008)

thinze3 said:


> In a roundabout way Marriott says they are doing what their Marriott Rewards members want, offer more availability.
> 
> How many people were able to go online and book a prime Marriott hotel at a prime time or season using "standard" Marriott awards. Yes, a small percentage of experienced MR rewards members (and Tug members) were able to make it work very well, knowing when and where to book to maximize their value. But many, if not most, MR rewards members probably found a dead end when trying to use MR points - either not getting the dates they wanted or having to pay double with "stay anytime" awards.
> 
> ...



See my post above.

Maybe next time they won't even kick the dog! Those swell Marriott folks!


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## winger (Oct 25, 2008)

Forgive me but it is now very hard to keep up with all this change in the past few days...

What happens to certificates (hotel) ordered and unused prior to Jan 15, 2009 ???  

I am asking b/c if Marriott allows grandfathering of unused certif's, it is cheaper to get a 7-night certif now than AFTER jan 15, 2009.  I would then consider burning through all my MRP's now and order a FEW unused hotel certif's and getting the FF miles while I am at it.


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## LAX Mom (Oct 25, 2008)

winger said:


> Forgive me but it is now very hard to keep up with all this change in the past few days...
> 
> What happens to certificates (hotel) ordered and unused prior to Jan 15, 2009 ???
> 
> I am asking b/c if Marriott allows grandfathering of unused certif's, it is cheaper to get a 7-night certif now than AFTER jan 15, 2009.  I would then consider burning through all my MRP's now and order a FEW unused hotel certif's and getting the FF miles while I am at it.



My understanding is that you can order travel packages now with the hotel certificates valid for 1 year. They cannot be extended when they expire. The certificates can be used for reservations made now but occuring after Jan. 15, 2009. If reservations are made after Jan. 15, they will be subject to hotel category changes (if there are some hotels adjusted to new categories).

For instance if you order a category 6 cert, you can use it for any hotel that is now a category 6 until it expires in one year if you make the reservation before Jan. 15. If you don't make your reservation until after Jan. 15, you will be limited to the hotels that are category 6 at that time.

Did I just confuse the issue?


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## winger (Oct 25, 2008)

is that 'not extendable' aspect of hotel certif's a new thing? i am not planning on using mine for another 3-5 yrs! i already extended the certif one yr


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## LAX Mom (Oct 25, 2008)

Yes, it's part of the new Marriott "enhancements". If you order certificates under the new program after Jan. 15, I think you can still extend those. I can't recall the specifics but this was addressed on flyertalk. I'll look for that info and post it here. 

Marriott Concierge definitely stated that any certificates from travel packages and Euro Hopper packages must be used by their expiration date, unless extended prior to Jan. 15. An extension prior to Jan. 15 will at most get you one year to Jan. 14, 2010. He specifically stated that certificates from the current program cannot be used after 2009.

If anyone has outstanding certs from travel packages, you should extend them for another year at the end of Dec. That will allow you to use then during 2009 before they expire. 

The only other option is to re-deposit them for points, but you get so few points that it makes more sense to use them, even for a long weekend.

Edited to add quote from flyertalk (Marriott Concierge):


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by frisbeeace
> Many of us have unused hotel certificates that were part of a travel package and were issued BEFORE these new rules were announced. We were confidently saving those certificates for the future in the knowledge that they were (are?) extendable at any time. Those certificates may have already expired or may expire soon. So my questions are:
> 
> ...


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## Cruiser Too (Oct 25, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> Yes, it's part of the new Marriott "enhancements". .......  Marriott Concierge definitely stated that any certificates from travel packages and Euro Hopper packages must be used by their expiration date, unless extended prior to Jan. 15. An extension prior to Jan. 15 will at most get you one year to Jan. 14, 2010. He specifically stated that *certificates from the current program cannot be used after 2009*.  If anyone has outstanding certs from travel packages, you should extend them for another year at the end of Dec. That will allow you to use then during 2009 before they expire.



*Yikes !!!!*
I was planning to redeem as many travel-packages, as my current number of points would allow.
And use them at some future dates (2009, 2010, etc.).

I'm a tad confused:
"_An extension prior to Jan. 15 will at most get you one year to Jan. 14, 2010_."

But you also mentioned:
"_He specifically stated that *certificates from the current program cannot be used after 2009*_."

Or am I misinterpreting you ???

Doug


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## LAX Mom (Oct 26, 2008)

Doug-

I've been following the thread on flyertalk so I can decide how to use my MRP. The Marriott Concierge is an official Marriott rep and has been attempting to answer questions about the new program. From everything I'ver read there, it seems 7 night certificates received with a travel package should be used by Dec. 31, 2009 at the latest. It is possible you could extend that date to Jan. 14, 2010 if you actually purchase (or extent) on Jan. 14, 2009. But I think it's clear that these certificates will be good for one year and no longer be extended after Jan. 15. 

If you purchase travel packages now and can't use the hotel portion in 2009, then you only receive a small amount of points (10,000 for a category 5?) if you turn the certificate back to Marriott. 

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=879191


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## LAX Mom (Oct 26, 2008)

Doug.Kaya said:


> *Yikes !!!!*
> I was planning to redeem as many travel-packages, as my current number of points would allow.
> And use them at some future dates (2009, 2010, etc.).
> 
> ...



Doug-
Sorry for the confusion, but the Marriott Concierge on flyertalk has stated that the certificates will only be good through 2009 and can't be used in 2010. In another post I think he stated that if you purchased a travel package on Jan. 14, 2008 the hotel cert would be good for 1 year to Jan. 14, 2010.

So it isn't real clear about those 14 days in early Jan. 2010.


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## Frisbeeace (Oct 26, 2008)

Still it is not clear to me if Marriott can retroactively change the conditions under which the old certificates were issued. I mean that those were extendable as many times as you wish into the future. Previous to the "enhancements" I redeemed points for 2 travel packages and I currently have 3 unused hotel certificates which I did not plan to use in 2009. Bottomline is that we have to renew this certificates just before Jan 15 to get an additional year until they expire forever.

On another note, a friend of mine purchased his second week from Marriott on Thursday and the agent did not mention the recent changes. He paid $2,000 as downpayment but will send his lawyers on Monday.

Finally, devaluation will be more severe than what the difference in points show after Marriott discloses which properties were upgraded in category. Last year more than 500 did so.


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## JoeMO (Oct 26, 2008)

*Platinum Elite*

What is the difference between Platinum and Platinum Elite?

Last week, while staying at a Marriott, they had the names of the rewards members staying at the hotel on a small bulletin board at the front desk.  They listed four categories: Silver, Gold, Platinum and Platinum Elite with the members names under each section.  These were not people who had used rewards points but were people staying there that had obtained the specific rewards level and were staying at the hotel.

This has been mentioned a couple of times on this thread so I thought someone might know the difference.  I tried calling Marriott Rewards but they are closed on the weekend.  On the website it only list the three categories but calls them all Elite Rewards.  I am back at the same hotel next week and I will ask when I check in.

Thanks, 
Joe


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## Dave M (Oct 26, 2008)

Frisbeeace said:


> Still it is not clear to me if Marriott can retroactively change the conditions under which the old certificates were issued. I mean that those were extendable as many times as you wish into the future.


 There was no formal program provision that allowed us to extend those hotel certificates indefinitely. Nothing was in writing. Marriott allowed people to extend them one year at a time as a courtesy, but you won't find anything in writing about it. 

You can bet Marriott's lawyers are comfortable with these changes. Also, the same thing happened the last time there was a major change (in 2000). The old "World Trip" certificates could not be extended once the changes were effective. Also, the Marriott Rewards T&C are very clear, stating that terms can be changed at any time or, if Marriott so decides, the entire Marriott Rewards program can be terminated.



> On another note, a friend of mine purchased his second week from Marriott on Thursday and the agent did not mention the recent changes.


 If he wants to cancel, he can. Tell him to follow the cancellation instructions on the last page of the contract. He's still within the cancellation period. Now is the time to do it if he wants to do so. Claiming he wasn't notified of forthcoming Marriott Rewards changes won't get him out of the commitment later because the disclosures and qualifications in the contract he signed protect Marriott for almost any change.


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## LAX Mom (Oct 26, 2008)

Dave is correct, Marriott can definitely refuse to extend our travel package hotel certificates in the future. Those of us with unused certificates better make plans now to use them in 2009!


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## dioxide45 (Oct 26, 2008)

Dave M said:


> If he wants to cancel, he can. Tell him to follow the cancellation instructions on the last page of the contract. He's still within the cancellation period. Now is the time to do it if he wants to do so. Claiming he wasn't notified of forthcoming Marriott Rewards changes won't get him out of the commitment later because the disclosures and qualifications in the contract he signed protect Marriott for almost any change.



One must question however what program the buyer was shown when the salesman made the presentation. The Marriott sales staff always uses the travel packages as a huge selling point and they do quote the number of points needed. If they were shown and told numbers based on the current program that is down right deceptive.


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## winger (Oct 26, 2008)

*Extending existing cat 6 hotel certif-will give a shot tomorrow*

I have an unused cat 6 hotel certif set to expire approx Dec 2008...I will call tomorrow to see how all this change will affect this.

My situation is I have too much vaca already scheduled for 2009 to use this hotel certif.  IF I can extend 1-yr to Dec 2009, AND between now and Dec 2009 I can plan/reserve a hotel stay sometime before Dec 2010, then I am ok since this gives us sufficient time to plan.   IF not, then this certif is a big fat waste of money (points) and I will not be a very happy camper, to say the least.


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## Dave M (Oct 26, 2008)

According to the rules as explained above and at FlyerTalk and at the Marriott blog, you can extend your certificate once more for a year - to *use it* for dates on or before January 14, 2010. If you haven't used it for a stay that occurs before then, it will be worthless. Thus, if you can't use it, you should consider giving the use to a friend or relative or turning it in for the meager points credit that Marriott offers.


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## Cruiser Too (Oct 26, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> Doug- I've been following the thread on flyertalk so I can decide how to use my MRP. The Marriott Concierge is an official Marriott rep and has been attempting to answer questions about the new program. From everything I'ver read there, it seems 7 night certificates received with a travel package should be used by Dec. 31, 2009 at the latest. It is possible you could extend that date to Jan. 14, 2010 if you actually purchase (or extent) on Jan. 14, 2009. But I think it's clear that these certificates will be good for one year and no longer be extended after Jan. 15. If you purchase travel packages now and can't use the hotel portion in 2009, then you only receive a small amount of points (10,000 for a category 5?) if you turn the certificate back to Marriott.
> http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=879191



Thanks for your clarification... LAX Mom


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## Frisbeeace (Oct 26, 2008)

dioxide45 said:


> One must question however what program the buyer was shown when the salesman made the presentation. The Marriott sales staff always uses the travel packages as a huge selling point and they do quote the number of points needed. If they were shown and told numbers based on the current program that is down right deceptive.



My friend was already an owner but completely unaware of the already announced changes when he signed his contract on Thursday. The selling agent neglected to tell him that a big change in the program were coming. Certainly his attitude was down right deceptive.


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## Cruiser Too (Oct 26, 2008)

Frisbeeace said:


> My friend was already an owner but completely unaware of the already announced changes when he signed his contract on Thursday. The selling agent neglected to tell him that a big change in the program were coming. Certainly his attitude was down right deceptive.



Marriott *HAD* a reputation for "honest and low-key" presentations.
I believe this will adversely affected sales at Marriott.
It certainly will for me... and anyone I can convince


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## gregloucks (Oct 27, 2008)

winger said:


> I have an unused cat 6 hotel certif set to expire approx Dec 2008...I will call tomorrow to see how all this change will affect this.
> 
> My situation is I have too much vaca already scheduled for 2009 to use this hotel certif.  IF I can extend 1-yr to Dec 2009, AND between now and Dec 2009 I can plan/reserve a hotel stay sometime before Dec 2010, then I am ok since this gives us sufficient time to plan.   IF not, then this certif is a big fat waste of money (points) and I will not be a very happy camper, to say the least.



I have a similar situation in that I have two certs that I was going to use for an April 2010 trip.  I've had a long email conversation with the Marriott Concierge about how I might accomplish this, and he has been extremely helpful. See the excerpt below in which he indicated that I could trade them in against two new MVCI 5-night certificates after the 1-15-09 changeover date. He had previously told me that I could also trade them in against two new 7-night certificates by paying in the points differential, but I would be less comfortable with that advice, as he made that statement in an email when he was being bombarded wth questions/working long hours and made a couple of other errors that he later corrected. So I am thinking I can trade them in against the new certificates after 1-15-09 and then get the expiration date extended to coincide with my April 2010 travel dates when I make the reservations.

"I think I understand what you are looking for now, and I am afraid I added to the confusion with my last response....If you will not be using certificates before 1/14/10 exploring the possibility of exchanging them to the MVCI five night awards appears to be the best plan.  Unfortunately, there is no procedure currently for this type of exchange, but because the MVCI 5 night travel packages will cost the exact same as the current travel packages it should be possible.  If you need assistance changing your current seven night portion of the travel package to the new 5 night MVCI reward please do not hesitate to contact me once the new reward become available to order January 15th.  "


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## LAX Mom (Oct 27, 2008)

gregloucks said:


> I have a similar situation in that I have two certs that I was going to use for an April 2010 trip.  I've had a long email conversation with the Marriott Concierge about how I might accomplish this, and he has been extremely helpful. See the excerpt below in which he indicated that I could trade them in against two new MVCI 5-night certificates after the 1-15-09 changeover date.



So basically, after Jan. 15 you will trade 7 night certificates to 5 night certificates that will be good for 1 year, but can be extended? You'll lose 2 nights on each certificate, but it won't cost you any additional points?


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## gregloucks (Oct 27, 2008)

LAX Mom said:


> So basically, after Jan. 15 you will trade to 7 night certificates to 5 night certificates that will be good for 1 year, but can be extended? You'll lose 2 nights on each certificate, but it won't cost you any additional points?



Yes, that is what I plan on doing. I hope it works because we have no use for them in 2009 - already way too much travel the books. Ira (MC) seems willing to help if I have a problem making the swap through MCVI Owner Services.


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## rsackett (Oct 27, 2008)

Has anybody seen how many points MVC stays will cost in the new program? 

I looked but did not see that info.

Ray


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## LAX Mom (Oct 27, 2008)

I believe the amount of points for MVCI redemption will not change, but they will also not be subject to the "no blackout days". I'm sure it will continue to be difficult to find availablity using points at MVCI properties.


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## Armada (Oct 27, 2008)

The amount of points for award stays at MVCI properties will not change, but the availability will probably be even less than in the past.  The units that might be available for award use are either those that Marriott owns or from weeks that owners have turned in for points.  With the current point deflation, exchanging your week for points(and paying the fee involved) isn't very smart and probably far fewer owners will use this option in the future.  No weeks traded for points means far fewer weeks available for MVCI awards.


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## Big Matt (Oct 28, 2008)

I think there will be a lot more weeks available for rent and exchange for points due to the large number of foreclosures that are now beginning to pile up on the Home Owners Associations across all properties.  Hopefully this will be a temporary event that only lasts another year or so.



BillMorrow said:


> The amount of points for award stays at MVCI properties will not change, but the availability will probably be even less than in the past.  The units that might be available for award use are either those that Marriott owns or from weeks that owners have turned in for points.  With the current point deflation, exchanging your week for points(and paying the fee involved) isn't very smart and probably far fewer owners will use this option in the future.  No weeks traded for points means far fewer weeks available for MVCI awards.


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## JoeMO (Oct 28, 2008)

*Elite Status*

I got an answer to my question about the difference between platinum and platinum elite.  All reward levels are elite is the answer.  Platinum elite is just another name for Platinum.

I also found out that there is a Platinum Premium status that Marriott sometimes awards to it special Platinum members.  The rewards representative didn't have anymore information about it.

I also found that there is a Platinum Lifetime award level.  This is when you are awarded the Platinum level for life.  All you have to do to get it is be a member for 12 years, have 1,000 stays and had 1,000,000 points awarded.

Just thought you might want to know.


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## Cruiser Too (Oct 28, 2008)

*"POINTS"   Aaaagh... !!!!*

THIS is exactly why I don't own timeshares that are "points" based.
All my timeshares are "Weeks" based.

Big Brother (In this case, Marriott) can and eventually will,
tinker with number of "points" to access something.  

ie:
It may currently take x number of "points" to stay at a resort.
Tomorrow, it may take x + y number of "points" to stay at the same resort.

Big Brother will do what's best for...... Big Brother !!!


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## musical2 (Oct 29, 2008)

I wrote to MVCI to tell them about my displeasure with the new point structure for rewards.  This is the response I received back.  It really tows the company line.

****************************************************
"Thank you for contacting Marriott Vacation Club International.

We appreciate your taking the time to share with us your thoughts regarding the changes that were made in the Marriott Rewards® program.

Many of the enhancements made to the program were done so based on the suggestions and feedback provided by our members and owners.  Changes were made so that we could offer more flexibility by eliminating blackout dates, having a larger number of redemption options, eliminating StayAnytime Rewards, creating a premier tier of select hotels, and having an increased value in the use of your Marriott Rewards® points.

After conducting extensive research and speaking with several thousand Marriott Rewards members, Marriott found that most of the members in the Marriott Rewards program expressed that the fact that there would no longer be blackout dates far outweighs the increase in Marriott Rewards point prices.

Although the 7 night Category 7 award (the highest point value under the current Marriott Rewards schedule) is going up by 40% (150,000 to 210,000 points), approximately 70% of the awards are staying at the same point value or decreasing slightly, and the average point increase is only 5% when weighted on how owners redeem points.

Of the members who told us they didn't like the point increases, these members informed us that they liked not having blackout dates, having more award availability, platinum bonus increase and having the 5th night free in total much more than they disliked the point increase.

About 10% of our awards historically have been Stay Anytime awards, while only 2% of our awards are for 7 nights.  Most Marriott Rewards members were more concerned about having the peace of mind in knowing that the dates they wanted to reserve would not be blacked out, than they were about the number of Marriott Rewards points they would need to redeem. 

Marriott strives to help you make the most of all your vacation opportunities and create a lifetime of vacation memories.  If you have any further questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us via the e-mail address listed below or via our website at www.My-VacationClub.com.

Best regards,

Jim M.
Correspondence Counselor
Marriott Vacation Club International
owner.services@vacationclub.com"
*******************************************

Bart


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## KathyPet (Oct 29, 2008)

If you put lipstick on a pig it's still a pig.  Typical Marriott answer defending what is obviously (from the comments I read on the Marriott feedback forum)  extremely unpopular changes to the rewards program and a obvious devaluation of points earned from trading in MVCI weeks


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## Cruiser Too (Oct 29, 2008)

musical2 said:


> I wrote to MVCI to tell them about my displeasure with the new point structure for rewards.  This is the response I received back.  It really tows the company line.
> 
> ****************************************************
> "We appreciate your taking the time to share with us your thoughts regarding the changes that were made in the Marriott Rewards® program......
> Many of the enhancements made to the program were done so based on the suggestions and feedback provided by our members and owners.  Changes were made so that we could offer more flexibility by eliminating blackout dates, having a larger number of redemption options, eliminating StayAnytime Rewards, creating a premier tier of select hotels, and having an increased value in the use of your Marriott Rewards® points.  After conducting extensive research and speaking with *several thousand Marriott Rewards members*, Marriott found that most of the members in the Marriott Rewards program expressed that the fact that there would no longer be blackout dates far outweighs the increase in Marriott Rewards point prices.



Can we have an informal survey ?

How many members were part of this "extensive research" ???


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## Frisbeeace (Oct 29, 2008)

MVCI said:


> Although the 7 night Category 7 award (the highest point value under the current Marriott Rewards schedule) is going up by 40% (150,000 to 210,000 points), approximately 70% of the awards are staying at the same point value or decreasing slightly, and the average point increase is only 5% when weighted on how owners redeem points.
> 
> Jim M.
> Correspondence Counselor
> ...



This is not accurate as we are experiencing 2 different and simultaneous devaluation processes here: first the increase shown in the MR schedule and also the more subtle process due to category creep that an uncertain number of properties will experience (as it happened last year with more than 500 hotels). So, the 7 night Cat. 7 award went up a 40% only if such hotel remains at cat.7 but a 60% if it becomes a Cat. 8 property. Be aware that 14 out of 24 hotels currently cat. 7 will be upgraded to cat. 8 so the 60% increase applies to 58% of the properties. Outrageous. 

I trust that 70% of the awards are staying at the same point value but they are certainly those which are foolish and inefficient ways to burn points. Any experienced member knows that, out of the whole MR catalogue, only hotel stays and travel packages are reasonable choices. The only exception being stays at MVCI which curiously remain at same point levels... because owners like me keep trading in our weeks for the same miserable fixed amount points and Marriott refuses to adjust our revenue even though they sell our nights at higher prices each year. So Marriott pays peanuts for our nights and plays generous with other members on our dime.


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## Icarus (Oct 29, 2008)

That guy is taking lessons from timeshare salesmen.

-David


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## Danette (Oct 29, 2008)

*5th Travel Package?*

In response to a question asked about the changes I received a response from Marriott that said (in part)

"With the changes to the Marriott Rewards program, a new 5th Travel Package will be available for only owners of Marriott Vacation Club International."

Any idea what she (Rosemarie Raptcheff, Correspondence Counselor, Marriott Vacation Club International) is talking about?  I have not heard back.

Thanks,

Danette


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## thinze3 (Oct 30, 2008)

MVCI owners will have the option to purchase a 5 night travel package that includes airline miles vs. the standard 7 nights and miles package available to all Marriott Rewards members.


Terry


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## winger (Oct 30, 2008)

well did not want to be left holding the bag...so, we bit the bullet and gave up our newport coast villa thanksgiving stay in 2009 (will use for a future exchange) in order to use up our cat 6...we upgraded the 6 to a 7 and are staying 7 days at the JW in santa monica (calif) in august 2009. we figure that is a decent 'exchange' in terms of vacation time!


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## MacDaddy (Oct 31, 2008)

I bought our unit from the developer, before I knew about TUG and the advantages of resale (though, that being said, we bought pre-construction and also got a Marriott vendor's discount, so we didn't get too badly hosed). Since then, we've attended some other Marriott presentations and there is no question that the opportunity to exchange your week for points is a big part of the sales pitch; at one presentation we attended at Summit Watch, the entire pitch was built on buying a discounted deal they were offering at one of the Orlando properties in order to use it as points trader. We never really considered it (by then, I knew about TUG and resale). I will say, though, that the salespeople never suggested that the points cost of the hotel and other awards were set in stone, and I think that anyone who believes that they are entitled to have the point cost of hotel stays frozen at the going rate when they purchased their unit expects entirely too much. By the way, since most (all?) Marriott timeshare deeds are fee simple and can be inherited arguably eternally, would you argue that the hotel stay point costs for Marriott owners should be frozen forever? In my view, Marriott is giving you exactly what you purchased from them - a a set number of points if you exchange your week. That doesn't mean you have to like it - it just means that each owner has to decide what that devaluation means to them. There is no question that those who bought for the sole purpose of points exchange have been hurt by this change, but IMO the increase is not unfair, though it is unfortunate.



LilMsFoodie said:


> Your stays at the timeshare accrue to the nights.



Is this true? I know that I have never received MRP credits for nights I've stayed in my unit or units I've exchanged into - have I been swindled?


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## IngridN (Oct 31, 2008)

The way I look at it, my timeshare if I elect to trade for points, has value to Marriott, therefore, if the reward points sturcture is adjusted, so should the points I receive in exchange for my unit.  For example, prior to Marriott changing the rental program, my lowly Shadow Ridge gold unit rented for about $3,200 and I received 50% less some fees, for the week for a 2 bedroom unit. At an exchange of 75K pts per year, it took me about 3 trades for points to be able to stay for example, at the Champs de Lysee Marriott.  So Marriott could receive $9.6K for my spending a week at a very expensive hotel (probably the lousiest view).  So, some of you are saying that I should expect to pay more for that hotel room and I certainly do. However, Marriott is also raising the rates it charges for my SR or any other unit I trade for points.  So tell me again why I should expect NO adjustment to the points I receive and should expect continued devaluation of the awards program.   Don't recall the exact numbers, but at current values, it will take me about 4.5 trades for points to stay at that same hotel.  I also recall from that initial presentation how we were paying for tomorrow's vacations with today's $ and what a value proposition that was.

We also had a "buy for points" presentation at our last one in Aruba :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: .  Don't recall his response to how this was such a fabulous, not to be turned down deal, given the certainty of devaluation of points.  There were a few times in the presentation I really wanted to let him have it especially when he insulted me for my philosophy of spending prudently vs. his of charge it and pay for it tomorrow.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Marriotts and would do it again, however, I would not buy from the developer.  One last thought...many of the point values of current purchases have been raised so tell me again why mine shouldn't be?

Ingrid


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## sandesurf (Oct 31, 2008)

In no way am I trying to "argue", but we always knew the points were just a "benefit" that could expire, even completely. Yes, they pushed the points as being very valuable at our sales presentation, but when questioned, we learned that Marriott could change or stop the program at any time. I guess I always just assumed that it would be terminated, at some point, so we spent those initial points A.S.A.P. and have always done so. Yes, we've had some fantastic point stays over the past 13 years, and are grateful for them. Our timeshares are still a value to us, just not the points,(as much).


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## Mila78 (Oct 31, 2008)

Hi everyone. I am ashamed to say that I got hosed my Marriott in purchasing my SurfWatch unit last year. As others have said, that was before I knew about TUG and resale. While I love being in the Marriott resort system, i am so ashamed at what i paid now!!!! and i totally got pulled in because of the points. now i am so depressed that one of the main reasons for me buying is drastically changing.... well, at least we still have trading power with marriott.


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## Latravel (Nov 1, 2008)

Mila78-
You should not be ashamed!  Most people buy from Marriott.  I bought my units from Marriott and I knew about and followed TUG.   The news about the changes in the points program is disappointing but I say, use all those thousands of incentive points you received when you bought your unit and plan yourself an amazing once in a lifetime vacation.  When you see how much those category 7 hotels are costing if you had to pay cash, you'll feel better about the points program.  I did!


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## Hoc (Jan 8, 2009)

tombo said:


> . . . guaranteeing owners that they would continue to receive what they were sold would be the right thing to do.



You haven't been listening.  Marriott has never cared about what is "the right thing to do."  The only thing that Marriott cares about is the bottom line.  Someone else referred to owners as Marriott "stakeholders."  Marriott does not see us that way.

Marriott sees timeshare owners as trapped customers, who must pay ever increasing annual fees with no way of getting out other than getting rid of the timeshare.  We are cash cows.  Nothing more.  
"Economy is bad?  Increase maintenance fees to help our cash flow."

You just can't look at Marriott as some beneficent entity that will act in the owners' best interest.  It always has, and always will, act in its own pecuniary best interest.  Those are the terms we accepted when we bought our Marriott timeshares, and those are the terms with which we are stuck.


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## iamnotshopgirl (Jan 8, 2009)

Hoc said:


> You haven't been listening.  Marriott has never cared about what is "the right thing to do."  The only thing that Marriott cares about is the bottom line.  Someone else referred to owners as Marriott "stakeholders."  Marriott does not see us that way.
> 
> Marriott sees timeshare owners as trapped customers, who must pay ever increasing annual fees with no way of getting out other than getting rid of the timeshare.  We are cash cows.  Nothing more.
> "Economy is bad?  Increase maintenance fees to help our cash flow."
> ...




Well said HOC...could not agree more!


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## thinze3 (Jan 8, 2009)

*More Bad News!*

Though there will be "no blackout dates" as Marriott is promoting, there will still be very limited availability at each hotel.

I just spoke to the rewards department and asked very specific questions about this. I was told that most hotels would have at least 10% of their rooms available for use with rewards points. There will be not blackout dates for special events, holidays, etc... Notice the words, "most" and "at least" - very vague.

WHAT???

I though that the whole promotion was about making it to where you could call at virtually anytime and get a room anywhere, but you would just have to pay much more than before for multinight stays. Of course I knew it wouldn't be quite that way, but only 10% with the words "most hotels" attached???

This really makes me angrier than I was even before the call!


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## pwrshift (Jan 8, 2009)

Even on the older system the 'Stay Anytime' rooms were more available than 'Standard' rooms, but there were a great many times that neither were available, especially for 7 night stays.  I'm hopeful that the new system will be better than it used to be for Standard bookings.

Brian


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## thinze3 (Jan 8, 2009)

pwrshift said:


> Even on the older system the 'Stay Anytime' rooms were more available than 'Standard' rooms, but there were a great many times that neither were available, especially for 7 night stays.  I'm hopeful that the new system will be better than it used to be for Standard bookings.
> 
> Brian




I hope so as well.

The fact remains that Marriott's continual upping the number of points required to stay at their hotel rooms is a slap in the face to timeshare owners who purchased from Marriott. Each time the hotel requirements are raised, the timeshare redemptions should be as well.

I think all of us Marriott-direct owners here on Tug should keep the pressure on Marriott by writing and asking for the same percentage of increases.


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## Latravel (Jan 8, 2009)

Wasn't there a comment on FlyerTalk where the Marriott Concierge mentioned that Marriott is considering and/or looking into increasing the amount of points they give owners to trade their unit?  When I read this, I was very happy and very surprised.  But I really shouldn't be surprised because the points program can be changed at any moment by Marriott.  It makes sense they would revisit this benefit in order to increase sluggish sales, considering it was a major part of their sales pitch.


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## Dave M (Jan 8, 2009)

thinze3 said:


> I think all of us Marriott-direct owners here on Tug should keep the pressure on Marriott by writing and asking for the same percentage of increases.


I think you are dreaming. Marriott has had significant point devaluations at least five times since Marriott first started offering points as sales incentives and for trading the use of weeks. Every time there is a point devaluation, owners complain. So far, Marriott has not made any points adjustment for existing owners after any of the devaluations. They have heard all of the complaints many times over the years. I read the Marriott Concierge's comment that Heidi saw and I posted of it here, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for such an adjustment.


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## thinze3 (Jan 8, 2009)

*Dreaming? Maybe.*

I personally believe that dreaming is expecting things to change in your favor without expressing your desires or putting forth some effort.

If Marriott Concierge stated that Marriott was considering points changes for current timeshare owners who purchased direct, then most likely it has been at least disussed within the Marriott circle. I personally emailed several people after the announcement. How many of you Tuggers at least did that?

All I am saying is that a well written letter (or email) at this time, expressing your desires/hopes for fair compensation cannot be anything but helpful - even if it is just a dream.

I challenge all of you to write Marriott about this issue - especially you Dave, as I believe your letter would carry more weight than most.  

P.S - Marriott has had exactly ONE points devaulation since I have been an owner of a resort bought from Marriott.


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## Latravel (Jan 8, 2009)

Terry, I agree with you. If the Marriott Concierge mentioned the review in such a public forum with experienced travelers, it was obviously talked about  within Marriott circles.  Writing letters could only help this review of the points allocations.  It can't hurt.


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## Jeffrey (Jan 8, 2009)

*Feeling helpless*

Who would be the appropriate person to "politically correct" complain to? What is the email/address ?

As opposed to the majority of you who have owned for many years and experienced multiple changes/devaluations of the MR points system over the years, I have just purchased about 6 months ago.

I purchased two developer weeks from Marriott ... and after discovering TUG BBS, a third week per resale.  Wish I had found you sooner 

All of the arguements delivered by the sales rep are not worth beans today...

e.g.
1. My two developer weeks package came with the 110K MR points trade value each.  Although I currently plan to use the weeks, the trade value was an arguement... With the current changes my trade value is not worth what I had calculated a few months ago...

2. The 25K MR points per 6 months intended to offset my 13% financing (I know, I know....) has been discontinued as of December.  This was also a major arguement....

I really feel as though I have bought at the wrong time and all of the factors which led to my decision have been liquidated more or less overnight from Marriott.  I know that they have the right to change the system at any time, but I certainly did not expect it to happen within just a few months of the closing.

Does anyone see any chance that our trade value (points) will be hiked to compensate for all of our (fictive) losses ?

Would it help to complain?  Essentially everyone who has bought the last months has been mislead by the sales reps.


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## lovearuba (Jan 8, 2009)

*Marriott aruba ocean club thread*

Hi 
Read the thread for the Marriott Aruba Ocean Club thread, folks are trying to contact Marriott.


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## davidvel (Jan 8, 2009)

MacDaddy said:


> . . . Since then, we've attended some other Marriott presentations and there is no question that the opportunity to exchange your week for points is a big part of the sales pitch; at one presentation we attended at Summit Watch, the entire pitch was built on buying a discounted deal they were offering at one of the Orlando properties in order to use it as points trader. We never really considered it (by then, I knew about TUG and resale). I will say, though, that the salespeople never suggested that the points cost of the hotel and other awards were set in stone, and I think that anyone who believes that they are entitled to have the point cost of hotel stays frozen at the going rate when they purchased their unit expects entirely too much.



In my experience with Marriott presentations this is true. However, it is misleading to only tout one side of the coin, and omit the facts which are inopposite. 

As anyone who has been in a sales presentation knows, the focal point often becomes a whiteboard presentation showing an example of what you would spend on your world trip and vacations over the next ten years. On the other side they show you cost of your TS purchase over that span, and the benefits of your points, etc. 

Of course, they alway include an inflation factor on "your" side for increases in room rates (and spend more than few minutes on this topic.) However, I have never seen the saleperson put on the Marriott side:

* Your maintenance fees will go up 5% a year; Special assessments may arise over this 10 year span; you can't freely sell your property due to ROFR; Marriott reserves the right to discontinue 90% of the perks and programs described here...

And send me a PM the next time you hear this out of a salesperson's mouth, and I'll buy drinks:


Dave M said:


> ...Marriott has had significant point devaluations at least five times since Marriott first started offering points as sales incentives and for trading the use of weeks. Every time there is a point devaluation, owners complain. So far, Marriott has not made any points adjustment for existing owners after any of the devaluations. .  .



In other words, while they may not affirmatively claim "these points will always have the same value," the salesperson conveniently omits material facts which would shed light on the facts that _are_ touted. Simply put this is fraud, and despite _buyer beware_, there are many less sophistaicated people who don't know what they are getting into as a result.


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## thinze3 (Jan 8, 2009)

*It is not my intention to turn into an Aruba thread.*

You can email your salesperson and ask him to forward it.
You can also email:
owners.clubhouse@vacationclub.com
marriottownerservices@vacationclub.com

You can also email or pm me. I have names of a couple of folks in the Executive Offices in Florida.

Dave explained very clearly recently why Marriott needs to make adjustments to the points system. I agree with this. I simply think that we should continue to pressure Marriott on raising the amount of points we receive as compensation when we trade our weeks for points just the same. When trading our weeks for points, we should be given enough points from Marriott to be able to get the same Marriott hotel room for the same number of nights each year, as we are giving them the same high quality timeshare each year.

The rental rates at our timeshares go up.
Our maintenence fees go up.
Our points reimbursemet should go up as well.


It really pretty simple. 

.


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## vincenzi (Jan 8, 2009)

When we bought two weeks in Aruba, our sales rep told us that we would earn enough points to travel anywhere in the world.  And, we would be flying first class.  Due to my husband's work schedule, we haven't planned anything.  However, he is now more flexible.  I always thought we would do a lot of research in order to plan our "big trip"  I really wasn't going to plan our trip for this year.  Right now, I feel like I have to make a quick decision and book before January 15th or be heavily penalized.  Is this the case?  Today, I called Marriott and was told that if I book after January 15th, I could only get only 5 days in a package.   And, if I wanted to stay extra days, it would take more points.   

I am so thankful for TUG and fellow Tuggers.  Otherwise, I would be totally clueless.


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## Latravel (Jan 8, 2009)

Come on everyone!  We should not be feeling like victims right now.  The Marriott Rewards program is a free perk, a benefit, not a right, for using their product.  It can and will be changed many times over the course of our ownerships.  I am grateful for every perk/benefit I get from the program and I purchased all of my units from Marriott (I have the most to lose).

Heck, I would rather get 5 nights free instead of 7 if it means I don't have to pay for very expensive hotel costs.  It was expected that as hotel rates reached the $3-4-5-600 a night rates, the amount of points needed would increase as well.  Did you really expect otherwise?  Since I love to travel and I will not stop traveling, I am grateful and relieved I don't have to pay those prices.  My husband and I consider the program a game to be played.  The rules have changed somewhat but i'm sure we'll all figure out how to maximize the benefits we receive.


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## Dave M (Jan 8, 2009)

vincenzi said:


> Today, I called Marriott and was told that if I book after January 15th, I could only get only 5 days in a package.


Not so. That's what was originally announced, but there will be 7-night air/hotel Travel Packages - with a much higher points cost than under the current program. See this post for an example of the difference in point requirements. Here is the full chart for 7-night Travel Package point requirements after January 14.


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## vincenzi (Jan 8, 2009)

Dave, thanks.  Apparently, the rep I spoke with was just as confused as me.  So, it would be very cost effective to book our trip before January 15th.  Right?


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## pwrshift (Jan 8, 2009)

thinze3 said:


> *...*The rental rates at our timeshares go up.
> Our maintenence fees go up.
> Our points reimbursemet should go up as well.
> 
> ...


 
I just booked 4 nights into the Marriott Marquis (paying cash) for $280 a night in May. Last year the daily rate was just under $600 at that time, so I used points a year ago. 

I've just booked my driving trip to Ft Laud for my 4 weeks starting mid Feb ... and every hotel I booked was less than last year's rates for 3 nights going and 3 nights coming back. 

I've seen more Cat7 and Cat 6 availabilities this year (before Jan15) than I've ever seen, even now in spite of everybody booking points stays. Checking some cash rates for these hotels, it's borderline savings on many if you value the points as $0.0125 each.

TS owners got stuck on their purchase agreements for the bonus idea of trading your week for a set amount of points, and I guess none of us thought about the future. In fact, I was more excited about 'owning' my first Marriott TS than travels on points -- I didn't even realize what a benefit it was going to turn out to be for me, but it certainly wasn't my initial reason for buying. I think I realized way back then that my MF might go up each year, but didn't relate it to points at the time.

Again .. don't hold your breath that Marriott will revise the points you get for turning in your week, but if all the weeks they get for points dry up and they don't have any rentals, you might just see some action. Let's hope so.

Brian


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## davidvel (Jan 8, 2009)

pwrshift said:


> Again .. don't hold your breath that Marriott will revise the points you get for turning in your week, but if all the weeks they get for points dry up and they don't have any rentals, you might just see some action. Let's hope so.
> Brian



Absolutley. Marriott will offer more points for your units when it is in their actual financial interest (not goodwill toward owners, loyalty, integrity, etc.) to do so.


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## thinze3 (Jan 8, 2009)

Let's hope many people do as Brian mentioned and do not trade their units for Marriott points. It IS the biggest protest possible.


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## Cruiser Too (Jan 8, 2009)

thinze3 said:


> Let's hope many people do as Brian mentioned and do not trade their units for Marriott points. It IS the biggest protest possible.



I haven't done that foolish thing except for the year when I purchase my TS.
It was late in the year and I knew I wouldn't be able to use it.

BTW:
That also where Marriott gets you !

Even if you purchase a week in the last week of December, 
you're still liable for the ENTIRE year's maintenance fee  

It'll be a cold day in hell, if I ever exchange my week for "points"


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## thinze3 (Jan 8, 2009)

Doug, your resorts are too nice to exchange for points anyhow.


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## Hoc (Jan 8, 2009)

Latravel said:


> Come on everyone!  We should not be feeling like victims right now.  The Marriott Rewards program is a free perk, a benefit, not a right, for using their product.



When you pay $60,000 for a room that normally sells on the resale market for $10,000, and the only difference in price is that you get the right to trade for points for the additional $50,000, I would hardly call that "free."


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## jhm40cu (Jan 9, 2009)

It seems like SPG program became the industry standard.


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## Latravel (Jan 9, 2009)

_"When you pay $60,000 for a room that normally sells on the resale market for $10,000, and the only difference in price is that you get the right to trade for points for the additional $50,000, I would hardly call that "free.""_

Uh, I think that's a slight exaggeration but even if you are right, it doesn't cost anything to join the rewards program.  And, don't most pro-resale owners state that you don't have to buy from Marriott to get points?  If so, the program is free perk/benefit for you.  Using your numbers, it doesn't have to cost $50,000 to get the benefits.


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## Cruiser Too (Jan 9, 2009)

thinze3 said:


> Doug, your resorts are too nice to exchange for points anyhow.


*
Mt. Amanzi ??? !!!*


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## Hoc (Jan 9, 2009)

Latravel said:


> Uh, I think that's a slight exaggeration . . . .



The ones that come to mind immediately are some of the Hawaii Marriotts and the Aruba Marriotts.  I think they were selling in that range from Marriott a year ago, and resale some of them are going for $10k or less.


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## m61376 (Jan 9, 2009)

Hoc said:


> The ones that come to mind immediately are some of the Hawaii Marriotts and the Aruba Marriotts.  I think they were selling in that range from Marriott a year ago, and resale some of them are going for $10k or less.



I know for the Aruba Marriotts at least, there were 2 recent Gold weeks that sold in the 9-10K area on Ebay from the same questionable seller that are currently selling I think somewhere in the high twenties from Marriott. These were great deals, btw, and I can tell you with some certainty a bit of an aberration, since I at least could not find any sellers willing to let theirs go for that price point. From what I've seen most of the Hawaii great buys were the lower priced garden/island view weeks and at similar discounts.

Although I am certainly not disagreeing with your point as to the real cost of those "free" points, I think saving $50k on the resale market is a bit of an hyperbole, even in this market.


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## thinze3 (Jan 9, 2009)

Latravel said:


> _"When you pay $60,000 for a room that normally sells on the resale market for $10,000, and the only difference in price is that you get the right to trade for points for the additional $50,000, I would hardly call that "free.""_
> 
> Uh, I think that's a slight exaggeration but even if you are right, it doesn't cost anything to join the rewards program.  And, don't most pro-resale owners state that you don't have to buy from Marriott to get points?  If so, the program is free perk/benefit for you.  Using your numbers, it doesn't have to cost $50,000 to get the benefits.



Heidi, I believe Hoc's point was to point out the fact that many people paid tens of thousands more for a timeshare by buying directly from Marriott, and did so for a single privilege, the privilege able to convert to Marriott Rewards points. The main reasons many of those people bought in on the program was because of the book showing the "dream vacations" that could be had using the rewards points. Now a Marriott has drastically reduced those peoples abilities to take that dream vacation.

I too bought a timeshare directly from Marriott for the purpose of being able to trade it for points. Luckily I bought a very inexpensive unit. Many others, however, have literally paid tens of thousands (maybe 50K) extra for that perk and do not feel that it was a "free" perk offered at the time, despite the wording of the fine print.


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## Latravel (Jan 9, 2009)

I could be wrong (I only own at 2 resorts) but up to just 6 months ago, the price differential was not more than $15,000.  It really wasn't very difficult to justify the price difference if Marriott gave you enough points.

Now, the market has dropped signifcantly - though I don't believe the price differential is in the $50,000 range.  I would estimate the price differential for my 2 resorts are in the $20,000 or less range.  At this point, i'm not sure there could be an adequate number of points to justify the price difference, therefore, units are not selling at the same rate as in the past.

I believe that Marriott will probably institute some type of program to jump start their sales program, maybe another type of benefit if you buy from the developer.  They have to do something because people have to be able to justify the price difference.  Unlike some sentiment on this board, people are not fools.


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## FlyerBobcat (Jan 9, 2009)

Latravel said:


> ....Unlike some sentiment on this board, people are not fools.



Agree.... But lots of people are uninformed -- and totally green when it comes to TS owning  -- going into these TS sales pitches.

Since learning lots on TUG, I've found several friends that recently bought weeks that had no clue what it was all about.  And in these cases, some alcohol was involved to cloud things up...  Not smart on their part, but they were just having a good time on vacation.


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## pharmgirl (Jan 9, 2009)

Lots of availability for Hawaii TS (mostly lock offs) for points, have not seen this before
We are using points to rent one br's before and after our weeks


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## Jeffrey (Jan 9, 2009)

> .... and did so for a single privilege, the privilege able to convert to Marriott Rewards points. The main reasons many of those people bought in on the program was because of the book showing the "dream vacations" that could be had using the rewards points. Now a Marriott has drastically reduced those peoples abilities to take that dream vacation.



My dream is shattered ....


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## Latravel (Jan 9, 2009)

Don't be too upset Jeffery.  There are many examples of people taking dream vacations over and over again.  Just because it may cost more points in the future, people will still be able to purchase wonderful vacations with points that they couldn't have otherwise.  I think sometimes people put down the value or predict gloom for points programs, especially now, for many reasons that you can figure out yourself.

If you need any validation that the points program is still valuable and worthwhile, look on FlyerTalk and see the many people who willingly and seriously collect points, my family included.


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## thinze3 (Jan 9, 2009)

*Old quotes from this thread*

*10/23/08*



thinze3 said:


> I have a question about Marriott's 2009 Policy Changes.
> 
> Marriott is touting the "No blackout dates" as a major selling point. But does "No blackout dates" mean you can always use points in lieu of cash if any room is available to be reserved? Or, are the number of rooms available to be used with points still limited to a small percentage?
> 
> ...






Dave M said:


> Generally, you should be able to use points if a room is available. But for some special events (e.g., NASCAR, Super Bowl, major conventions, peak weeks, etc.) there will be limitations:



The answer is at least 10% of the rooms will be available.
This is a far cry from what we were expecting only three months ago.


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## Darlene (Jan 9, 2009)

I guess I just haven't been getting enough sleep, but I haven't been able to figure out what I should do.  I have no set travel plans for this year.  I am still waiting for II to come through with a match for this summer for Victoria or Banff.  I have a Hawaii week in April, still need to get airfare for, and that's it.  I have a lot of points, two trips worth in old (till Jan. 15th) points system, should I redeem before Jan. 15th and connect reservation to later, should I just cash in for air miles with a couple of airlines?  What would you do? 
We just took a big trip with points to Japan last summer and flew business class.  I had thought about using points for a cruise until I saw what a bad deal that is now.  I just sent a son on a mission for 2 years, and thought I would plan another big trip when he comes home.  I just didn't see this coming.  Luckily, I stopped using my Marriott Visa last May, and got an AE blue cash.  With the changes, I think we'll either use or trade or Marriott week and not trade for points anymore.  With the bonus week we get, it's a better deal.
I don't see anything about just air mileage rewards?  Does anyone what these will be increasing to?


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