# email just received - Important Updates to Your CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Program Guidelines



## scootr5

"On behalf of the Fairshare Vacation Owners Association Board, we are committed to delivering exceptional vacation experiences to you, our valued CLUB WYNDHAM® Plus member. As part of that commitment, we strive to take your vacation needs into consideration as the desires and demands of our ownership base evolve. We do this in concert with our ongoing efforts to simplify the program and enhance your vacation planning experience. With that said, we are pleased to announce several upcoming changes to the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Program Guidelines.

These changes will become effective with Wyndham Vacation Ownership’s implementation of upgraded systems, including _myclubwyndham.com_. You will be notified via email in the coming weeks regarding the launch date of these systems. If you haven’t already done so, please register for a preview of your new member website at www.preview.myclubwyndham.com. You must create a new log in to access the upgraded member website.

We encourage you to read the full overview of the changes to the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus program in the _4/20/17 Supplement to the 2014-2015 CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Resort Directory_ here.

These changes were designed to enhance your ownership experience and help you continue to enjoy all that CLUB WYNDHAM Plus has to offer. The Board will continue to review opportunities to simplify your ownership and increase your ability to vacation with us. We thank you for being a valued CLUB WYNDHAM Plus member.

Sincerely,

Your CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Family"​Lots of changes coming here.

1. VIP upgrade opt-in - they will now automatically search for an upgrade at the window.

2. Increase in the number of RARP commensurate to VIP level.

3. "Credit Pooling" is now "Points Deposit Feature" - you must now specify what use year you want to move the points to. It's no longer a three year window from date of pooling (so no more pulling points forward, only pushing back).

4. Two free guest certificates per year for regular members.

5. ARP bookable online.

6. At most resorts you can now check in on any day, and book stays of up to 14 days.

7. It looks like they are eliminating the "do everything on one day for one reservation transaction", as it now specifies that each thing will require a transaction.

8. Points history to show transaction log.

9. "Normalized" 30 day calendar. Nor more waiting until March 1st to book a December 29th, 30th, 31st check in.


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## bnoble

I just read the supplement. Three material changes jumped out:

No more credit pool. Instead, you can "advance" a set of UY points forward either one UY or two UY. They cannot be moved a second time, you have to pick which UY you are going to use at the time of "deposit." Clearly less flexible than the old Pool process, requires more planning, and kills the ability to pool backward. Deposit deadlines: 3 months into UY for standard members, 6 months silver, 9 months gold, anytime in the year for Plats. Pretty much a lose for everyone. Small silver lining: advanced points might still be able to be deposited to RCI.

Automatic waitlist for VIP upgrades. Will probably put an end to cancel-rebook as discussed ad nauseum.

Cancelling rented points generates a refund of the rental fee, rather than depositing the rented points to your account. Six of one. It's nice to have the fees refunded, but you can no longer rent into the Express window, cancel, and book into the Standard window. So, maybe a net loss for those of us who worked the corners.

Direct link to the supplement for those who don't want to/can't log in:
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/plus_membersdirectory_supplement1718/index.php


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## Jan M.

The website will be open 24/7 too!

Am I reading this correctly? They way I read the changes you will have 48 hours after a reservation is confirmed to add a guest name if you have have more than one reservation for the same dates. If I am interpreting this correctly it will kill renting for many owners!


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## philemer

What are the negatives for the standard member who only takes 1 vacation per year? Looks like just the pooling of points restriction?


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## bnoble

philemer said:


> What are the negatives for the standard member who only takes 1 vacation per year? Looks like just the pooling of points restriction?


That and rent-cancel-rebook to get around Standard window rental limits (only a portion of the last night) vs. Express (up to the points you own).


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## Joe33426

I really like the 14 day reservation change, but wonder how many resorts that feature will be available at.  

Also, check in on any day and one night reservations .... Really....  Did I read that correctly?


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## Joe33426

Two guest confirms for standard members, that's nice.


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## Roger830

It looks like the big negative is credit pooled points can only be used in one use year.

My reading of the manual leads me to believe that we can still credit pool 2018 points with 3 years use but not 2019.

Any disagreement?


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## ronparise

If I read this right, they have put an end to speculative bookings... and to megarenting as we know it

If you have overlapping reservations a guests name must be added within 48 hours of confirmation If no guests name then the reservations will be cancelled and points forfeited

so no more making 10 reservations for one event and then advertising to find your paying guest..

as I see it this makes large scale commercial renting a thing of the past

and with the upgrade button there will be no cancel/rebook of popular reservations, except perhaps studios (and 1 bedrooms at the places that dont have studios)


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## scootr5

Roger830 said:


> It looks like the big negative is credit pooled points can only be used in one use year.
> 
> My reading of the manual leads me to believe that we can still credit pool 2018 points with 3 years use but not 2019.
> 
> Any disagreement?



It says that none of this is effective until they roll out the new site, so you certainly should be able to do that up until then. I'm not sure I would rely on that after it happens, even though it does specify 2019 points.


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## paxsarah

12am ET for reservation windows opening? Way past my bedtime!


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## JimMIA

bnoble said:


> I just read the supplement. Three material changes jumped out:
> 
> No more credit pool. Instead, you can "advance" a set of UY points forward either one UY or two UY. They cannot be moved a second time, you have to pick which UY you are going to use at the time of "deposit." Clearly less flexible than the old Pool process, requires more planning, and kills the ability to strip forward. Deposit deadlines: 3 months into UY for standard members, 6 months silver, 9 months gold, anytime in the year for Plats. Pretty much a lose for everyone. Small silver lining: advanced points might still be able to be deposited to RCI.


The big question in my mind is what they mean by "advancing" points by depositing them into future UYs.  

If I "advance" 2018 points into 2020, does that mean I can use them ONLY in 2020?  Or can I still use them during 2018, 2019, and 2020?

The new system seems to eliminate "borrowing" points by credit pooling them into an _earlier_ UY.  Did I read that right?

It's also not clear whether we can "advance" points prior to the beginning of our UY, or if we have to wait until the beginning of the UY.

For resale buyers, I see two small advantages.  One is the ability to "advance" points up to three months into the current UY, as opposed to prior to.  The other is we now will get two free GC's.


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## ddavid1073

The change to the Credit Pool really limits our point use and has no positive purpose for owners.

Please call Wyndham at 800-251-8736 and tell them to continue with the current Credit Pool and that this will affect your thoughts on any future purchases.

Also, please tell anyone you know that owns at Wyndham to also call.


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## scootr5

Joe33426 said:


> I really like the 14 day reservation change, but wonder how many resorts that feature will be available at.
> 
> Also, check in on any day and one night reservations .... Really....  Did I read that correctly?



There are asterisks there - check in on any day and length-of-stay requirements may vary by resort, and one night stays may only be booked inside of 14 days.


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## ronparise

ddavid1073 said:


> The change to the Credit Pool really limits our point use and has no positive purpose for owners.
> 
> Please call Wyndham at 800-251-8736 and tell them to continue with the current Credit Pool and that this will affect your thoughts on any future purchases.
> 
> Also, please tell anyone you know that owns at Wyndham to also call.




you can still push this years points into next year,

What you cant do is pull next years points into this year


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## scootr5

JimMIA said:


> The big question in my mind is what they mean by "advancing" points by depositing them into future UYs.
> 
> If I "advance" 2018 points into 2020, does that mean I can use them ONLY in 2020?  Or can I still use them during 2018, 2019, and 2020?



Only in 2020.



JimMIA said:


> The new system seems to eliminate "borrowing" points by credit pooling them into an _earlier_ UY.  Did I read that right?



Yes, that's the way I read it too.


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## ronparise

Jan M. said:


> The website will be open 24/7 too!
> 
> Am I reading this correctly? They way I read the changes you will have 48 hours after a reservation is confirmed to add a guest name if you have have more than one reservation for the same dates. If I am interpreting this correctly it will kill renting for many owners!



Thats the last thing in the supplement but the first one that made me sit up and take notice.. The rest were pretty much predictable,  or at least not surprising
This one as you say seems designed to prevent speculative bookings... 

im already trying to figure out a way around it.


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## ronparise

scootr5 said:


> Only in 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's the way I read it too.




exactly.right...no borrowing....and you can probably blame me for that one


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## scootr5

ronparise said:


> If I read this right, they have put an end to speculative bookings... and to megarenting as we know it



There are some crafty people out there, but at this point I would absolutely agree.


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## paxsarah

Although the price of reservation transactions has gone down ($19 online, $39 phone), I'm reading it that you can no longer do more than one transaction in a day for one RT. "A Reservation Transaction is now required each time one of the following transactions is confirmed..."


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## wed100105

These changes seem to be a huge disadvantage for me. I own 879,000 points and am grandfathered in as Gold VIP. (Yes, I did make a developer purchase (2 actually) in addition to some resale, PIC, etc.) 

I use the credit pool a lot. I don't have any 2018 points. I've been borrowing ahead using the credit pool feature. I am SOL for next year, and I need points to move into RCI. I will have to look at my current bookings to figure it out. 

I use the cancel-rebook feature. It looks like this will be eliminated, and how in the world will we the owners know if the upgrades are actually happening or if the units are pulled to be rentals for Wyndham. Will I ever get an upgrade again or will it be that all the platinum members snatch them up at 60 days? 

I'm currently on hold hoping to beat the clock and get my 2019 points credit pooled. I'm hoping that playing dumb about the change will work. 

The only plus side that I can see for us is that we bought 12 years ago, using all the available benefits (aka loopholes) at the time. We have added to our ownership for very small amounts, and took advantage of many benefits throughout the years. I'm grateful that we are in a place in our lives now that my ownership only costs me $4600 a year. Hopefully I can get some nice vacations out of that. 

I've been very fortunate in the past to book last minute reservations for the Dells (the only resort close to me geographically) and have been able to upgrade and use the discount. I can't see how those units will be available now.


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## spackler

ronparise said:


> Thats the last thing in the supplement but the first one that made me sit up and take notice.. The rest were pretty much predictable,  or at least not surprising
> This one as you say seems designed to prevent speculative bookings...
> 
> im already trying to figure out a way around it.



Can't you just put a fake name for the guest & change it to a real one once you secure a renter?


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## philemer

@scootr5 The last part, in parentheses, seems contrary to the way I'm reading it. *3. "Credit Pooling" is now "Points Deposit Feature" - you must now specify what use year you want to move the points to. It's no longer a three year window from date of pooling (so no more pulling points forward, only pushing back).  *

I can push 2018 pts into 2019 or 2020, right?
*
*


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## Lita

The new guest confirmation rules are not only bad for people renting, they also kill the ability for everyone to plan family vacations.  I just sent this comment to Wyndham. Others may want to do the same.  They sometimes listen if enough members complain.  Here is what I sent by comment:

"I was very disappointed to learn about the changes to the system for guest confirmations.  You have ruined my ability to plan family vacations and destroyed any reason for me to continue to be a Club Wyndham Platinum member.

I plan family vacations for myself and my relatives in advance, especially in hard to book locations a year in advance - sometimes longer than that using advance reservations.  At that point in time I have no idea of who in the family may be able to come and don't actually put in guest names until the last minute because there are always last minute emergencies that require changes.  I  always add the guest reservation before the date based on prior rules.

You have killed my ability to plan these family vacations with the new guest confirmation policies.  There is no longer any reason for me to maintain a Platinum membership and I will plan to give up my membership as soon as possible using my contract stipulations."


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## Jan M.

I've read the information over several times now and I don't see anything that says you can't borrow points from the next use year. Did I miss something?


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## scootr5

spackler said:


> Can't you just put a fake name for the guest & change it to a real one once you secure a renter?



Sure, but then you have to pay for a new guest certificate.


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## scootr5

philemer said:


> @scootr5 The last part, in parentheses, seems contrary to the way I'm reading it. *3. "Credit Pooling" is now "Points Deposit Feature" - you must now specify what use year you want to move the points to. It's no longer a three year window from date of pooling (so no more pulling points forward, only pushing back).  *
> 
> I can push 2018 pts into 2019 or 2020, right?



Yes, that's correct. You can no longer pull 2019 points in to 2017 or 2018 though.


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## wed100105

I've been on hold for 38 minutes. Grrr.....

An hour and 20 minutes later----

I'm REALLY unhappy about these changes and I let the vacation counselor know. I asked who I needed to speak to higher up about my displeasure with these changes, and he said that he would be happy to talk to me about it. He had no other number or customer service information. 

I was not able to credit pool 2019 points; I expressed my frustration that there was no notification given that this would be changed. 

I did find out through my ranting that upgrades will be first come first serve. So if you book your unit 13 months out and opt-in for the upgrade, you will be one of the first to receive the upgrade.

I believe this is a major disadvantage for VIP gold owners. I can't see how any upgrades will be available.


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## spackler

scootr5 said:


> Sure, but then you have to pay for a new guest certificate.



Probably still worth it for the high-value reservations.


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## paxsarah

Jan M. said:


> I've read the information over several times now and I don't see anything that says you can't borrow points from the next use year. Did I miss something?



I don't think it's the borrowing, it's the ability to credit pool points from a future year and use them in the current year (or from two years ahead, and use them in the next year). That seems to be explicitly gone.


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## md8287

Great insight from all, and no personal attacks.  Thanks.


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## Avislo

Any panic moves at this point would be jumping the gun, with the possible exception of attempting to credit pool 2019 points before the lock-down is done.  If I read the supplement correctly, this part goes into effect right now.


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## scootr5

spackler said:


> Probably still worth it for the high-value reservations.



Maybe, but it seems you can no longer rely on getting the unit with an upgrade at a points discount (so no 3 bedroom for 50% of a studio). It would likely have to be a very high dollar rental to make enough of a profit to make it worthwhile, let alone cover a second $99 gust certificate.


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## comicbookman

Other than the limiting of the credit pool, which is unfortunate, but does not have a huge impact on me, my question is will we be able to change the owner name or guest name, on a reservation after the fact online?  I currently have several reservations for Thanksgiving, and have not yet assigned guest names to them because I am not sure who is arriving when (won't know for several months).  Once the new system goes live I will have 48 hours to separate everything or risk losing some of them.


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## ronparise

spackler said:


> Can't you just put a fake name for the guest & change it to a real one once you secure a renter?



It will cost another $100 but yes I think so

Some years ago,(before I owned Wyndham) they introduced guest fees and although I'm sure there was lots of complaining, it seems as if the megarenters adjusted to less income it they raised their prices.  That's what would probably happen here. Except that The problem for megarenter is that the guest fees are only one facet of what they have done. They have also taken away the possibility of most cancel and rebook and upgrades which we rely on to keep our prices down

If we have to charge something more than mf plus $200 for guest confirms, I don't think we can be competitive


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## JeffandJamie

So my wife and I are just regular resale owners (259k points), and this points deposit feature...well, I'll be blunt, it sucks.

I can understand them wanting to eliminate the capability of bring reservations forward into this use year.  But now, instead of having to plan vacations 10 months in advance, I must plan several years in advance so I know what year I want to move my points to.  For example, if we want to take a big family vacation two years from now, but there is no guarantee that it will actually happen, I have to move my points into two years from now's use year, and then hope for the best.  At least with the credit pool option, I could be flexible and use them how I saw fit over the next few years.

The BS piece of this is that if they wanted to kill megarenting, all they had to do was eliminate the speculative reservations without making any changes to the credit pool.  But they took a multi-faceted approach and hurt all their owners - developer owners, resale owners - everyone.

They made their product less valuable today.


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## comicbookman

Also, just checked into the preview site and no specific account information (it was all there before) showed up.  I'm guessing they are working on that part of it.  I was hoping to preview some of the new features.  Maybe tomorrow.


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## Lita

comicbookman said:


> Other than the limiting of the credit pool, which is unfortunate, but does not have a huge impact on me, my question is will we be able to change the owner name or guest name, on a reservation after the fact online?  I currently have several reservations for Thanksgiving, and have not yet assigned guest names to them because I am not sure who is arriving when (won't know for several months).  Once the new system goes live I will have 48 hours to separate everything or risk losing some of them.



That is exactly right.  I called and confirmed I could not have duplicate reservations for more than 48 hours from initial confirmation.  As I posted above, I sent this complaint using the online system.  Have not yet gotten a response:

"I was very disappointed to learn about the changes to the system for guest confirmations.  You have ruined my ability to plan family vacations and destroyed any reason for me to continue to be a Club Wyndham Platinum member.

I plan family vacations for myself and my relatives in advance, especially in hard to book locations a year in advance - sometimes longer than that using advance reservations.  At that point in time I have no idea of who in the family may be able to come and don't actually put in guest names until the last minute because there are always last minute emergencies that require changes.  I  always add the guest reservation before the date based on prior rules.

You have killed my ability to plan these family vacations with the new guest confirmation policies.  There is no longer any reason for me to maintain a Platinum membership and I will plan to give up my membership as soon as possible using my contract."

I was able to put some reservations in my co-owners name to avoid all family vacations from being destroyed completely.


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## alexadeparis

ronparise said:


> Am I reading this correctly? They way I read the changes you will have 48 hours after a reservation is confirmed to add a guest name if you have have more than one reservation for the same dates. If I am interpreting this correctly it will kill renting for many owners!
> 
> Thats the last thing in the supplement but the first one that made me sit up and take notice.. The rest were pretty much predictable,  or at least not surprising
> This one as you say seems designed to prevent speculative bookings...
> 
> im already trying to figure out a way around it.



Actually, looking at the page someone attached above - that is NOT what is says AT ALL. It says that you must put the guest's name on AT THE TIME OF BOOKING. If you don't have the guest name, you cannot make the reservation IF THAT RESERVATION IS WITHIN 48 HOURS OF CHECK-IN of ANY OTHER RESERVATION on your account! So, for example, If I wanted to go from Wyndham's Las Vegas resort to Sedona, there would have to be a minimum 2 night stay in between the start of the first reservation and the start of the next one in order to avoid the Guest certificate.


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## scootr5

JeffandJamie said:


> So my wife and I are just regular resale owners (259k points), and this points deposit feature...well, I'll be blunt, it sucks.
> 
> I can understand them wanting to eliminate the capability of bring reservations forward into this use year.  But now, instead of having to plan vacations 10 months in advance, I must plan several years in advance so I know what year I want to move my points to.  For example, if we want to take a big family vacation two years from now, but there is no guarantee that it will actually happen, I have to move my points into two years from now's use year, and then hope for the best.  At least with the credit pool option, I could be flexible and use them how I saw fit over the next few years.



You could move 259K 2019 points to 2020 for that vacation. If for some reason your plans for that year did not work out, you could then move your 259K 2020 points to a future year, leaving you with 259K points to use in 2020 (since those were from 2019 and could not be moved again).


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## Lita

alexadeparis said:


> Actually, looking at the page someone attached above - that is NOT what is says AT ALL. It says that you must put the guest's name on AT THE TIME OF BOOKING. If you don't have the guest name, you cannot make the reservation IF THAT RESERVATION IS WITHIN 48 HOURS OF CHECK-IN of ANY OTHER RESERVATION on your account! So, for example, If I wanted to go from Wyndham's Las Vegas resort to Sedona, there would have to be a minimum 2 night stay in between the start of the first reservation and the start of the next one in order to avoid the Guest certificate.



You will not be able to book overlapping vacations in 48 hours without a guest certificate.  Otherwise you can book them without a guest certificate, but must add a guest certificate within 48 hours after booking or the reservation can be cancelled.


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## scootr5

alexadeparis said:


> Actually, looking at the page someone attached above - that is NOT what is says AT ALL. It says that you must put the guest's name on AT THE TIME OF BOOKING. If you don't have the guest name, you cannot make the reservation IF THAT RESERVATION IS WITHIN 48 HOURS OF CHECK-IN of ANY OTHER RESERVATION on your account! So, for example, If I wanted to go from Wyndham's Las Vegas resort to Sedona, there would have to be a minimum 2 night stay in between the start of the first reservation and the start of the next one in order to avoid the Guest certificate.



I _think_ that's just poor wording, and they intended to say that if you are making a reservation that has a checkin within 48 hours and it overlaps another reservation, you must add a guest certificate.

You _might_ run in to a problem if your check out in Las Vegas is on Friday, and you booked the checkin in Sedona for Thursday (unless you have multiple owners on the account traveling with you and selected the other owner).


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## JeffandJamie

scootr5 said:


> You could move 259K 2019 points to 2020 for that vacation. If for some reason your plans for that year did not work out, you could then move your 259K 2020 points to a future year, leaving you with 259K points to use in 2020 (since those were from 2019 and could not be moved again).



That's a fair point.  I guess since I credit pool points anyway most years as an "insurance policy" to prevent me from losing any should a vacation be cancelled for some reason, it really is the same cost for us.

Any word on whether unused points that have been moved with the new feature will be able to be rolled into RCI should they not be used by the end of their new use year?


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## paxsarah

alexadeparis said:


> Actually, looking at the page someone attached above - that is NOT what is says AT ALL. It says that you must put the guest's name on AT THE TIME OF BOOKING. If you don't have the guest name, you cannot make the reservation IF THAT RESERVATION IS WITHIN 48 HOURS OF CHECK-IN of ANY OTHER RESERVATION on your account! So, for example, If I wanted to go from Wyndham's Las Vegas resort to Sedona, there would have to be a minimum 2 night stay in between the start of the first reservation and the start of the next one in order to avoid the Guest certificate.



No, that is not what it says.



scootr5 said:


> I _think_ that's just poor wording, and they intended to say that if you are making a reservation that has a checkin within 48 hours and it overlaps another reservation, you must add a guest certificate.
> 
> You _might_ run in to a problem if your check out in Las Vegas is on Friday, and you booked the checkin in Sedona for Thursday (unless you have multiple owners on the account traveling with you and selected the other owner).



This is how I read it as well. Throughout that section, they repeated refer to the reservations as having "dates that overlap." The part I didn't parse properly until this conversation is where if the overlapping reservations are booked within 48 hours of check-in, the guest certificates have to be added immediately. Otherwise, you have 48 hours to get them in place. But it's still all about overlapping reservations only.


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## scootr5

Jan M. said:


> I've read the information over several times now and I don't see anything that says you can't borrow points from the next use year. Did I miss something?



I don't see anything in here dealing with "Borrowing" points, so it would seem that would be unchanged from the current directory and supplements.

I think someone used the word "Borrowing" when referring to using the credit pool to pull points from future years in to the current year.


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## Braindead

No one may like the credit pool change  but I understand why the change was made.

Mega renter had 200 million points in multiple accounts. He passes away and used 3 years of points. Who pays the MFs. No heir wants the liability. Estate is probably not liable. Their account is current on MFs. Estate not liable for future bills not billed prior to owner passing. 

Somebody knows they are going to file bankruptcy . So credit pool points to take a big vacation. Probably still owes on the original points. Wyndam or us owners stuck with the foreclosure and MFs.

I'm sure Wyndham has already been exposed to some of this.


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## antjmar

ronparise said:


> If I read this right, they have put an end to speculative bookings... and to megarenting as we know it
> 
> If you have overlapping reservations a guests name must be added within 48 hours of confirmation If no guests name then the reservations will be cancelled and points forfeited
> 
> so no more making 10 reservations for one event and then advertising to find your paying guest..
> 
> as I see it this makes large scale commercial renting a thing of the past
> 
> and with the upgrade button there will be no cancel/rebook of popular reservations, except perhaps studios (and 1 bedrooms at the places that dont have studios)


Ron what about if you used your ARP for multiple reservations? I would think if you own deeded rights at a resort they can't restrict use.


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## wed100105

Wyndham says that this will increase inventory. I will believe it when I see it. 

We are at the point in our lives that we have to book more last minute stays; the kids are involved in so much that booking a year in advance isn't working for us. I love last minute reservations (within 60-30 days before check-in). These will be snatched up by automatic upgrades, right? We are a family of 5 now, and we can't "legally" be in a one bedroom unit.


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## bestresort

There is no longer any reason for me to maintain a Platinum membership and I will plan to give up my membership as soon as possible using my contract."  

I agree.  I will let the dust settle but they can have my platinum account back and i dont give a sxxt if they sue me

They just devalued platinum, gold, silver...The more you owned the more you got harmed. Wyndham has screwed their best customers.

The fallout will be loan defaults--hurts banks not wyndham
and MF defaults ( doesnt hurt wyndham) but other wyndham owners

Someone that has paid 700 for a 2 bedroom at bonnett creek will have to pay 1750 14 months in advance and the rentor.

Mega rentors held mf's down thru use

Puts mega rentors out of business and will leave many popular resorts with unused inventory


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## nicemann

Really happy about the ARP can be done online.  Never understood why it couldn't be done in the past.  Sucks about the point pulling.  As for renting...guess there won't be as many great deals out there anymore.  Guess that means some people may have to look for more resell points if they have been renting instead of using their own points.  Kind of like what I have been doing.

Funny how some of the things everyone on here has been guessing could happen, really did happen.


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## ronparise

Yes


Braindead said:


> No one may like the credit pool change  but I understand why the change was made.
> 
> Mega renter had 200 million points in multiple accounts. He passes away and used 3 years of points. Who pays the MFs. No heir wants the liability. Estate is probably not liable. Their account is current on MFs. Estate not liable for future bills not billed prior to owner passing.
> 
> Somebody knows they are going to file bankruptcy . So credit pool points to take a big vacation. Probably still owes on the original points. Wyndam or us owners stuck with the foreclosure and MFs.
> 
> I'm sure Wyndham has already been exposed to some of this.


 they have


Lita said:


> That is exactly right.  I called and confirmed I could not have duplicate reservations for more than 48 hours from initial confirmation.  As I posted above, I sent this complaint using the online system.  Have not yet gotten a response:
> 
> "I was very disappointed to learn about the changes to the system for guest confirmations.  You have ruined my ability to plan family vacations and destroyed any reason for me to continue to be a Club Wyndham Platinum member.
> 
> I plan family vacations for myself and my relatives in advance, especially in hard to book locations a year in advance - sometimes longer than that using advance reservations.  At that point in time I have no idea of who in the family may be able to come and don't actually put in guest names until the last minute because there are always last minute emergencies that require changes.  I  always add the guest reservation before the date based on prior rules.
> 
> You have killed my ability to plan these family vacations with the new guest confirmation policies.  There is no longer any reason for me to maintain a Platinum membership and I will plan to give up my membership as soon as possible using my contract."
> 
> I was able to put some reservations in my co-owners name to avoid all family vacations from being destroyed completely.




it hasnt ended your familiy reunions... but it will cost another guest confirm...


----------



## nicemann

Maybe I misread in the past but how many guest certificates does platinum VIP get each year?  I was thinking it was unlimited.


----------



## bnoble

Jan M. said:


> I don't see anything that says you can't borrow points from the next use year.


No, you still can. But borrowing is quite limited. During the Standard window, you can only borrow points up to a portion of the last night's stay. In the Express window, you can borrow as much as you want.



wed100105 said:


> I can't see how any upgrades will be available.


Take a deep breath, and lets see what happens. It is too soon to speculate. But, at the very least, upgrades will be available in the situations in which they were originally intended---resorts with excess inventory close to check-in date.


----------



## Jan M.

Lita said:


> The new guest confirmation rules are not only bad for people renting, they also kill the ability for everyone to plan family vacations.  I just sent this comment to Wyndham. Others may want to do the same.  They sometimes listen if enough members complain.  Here is what I sent by comment:
> 
> "I was very disappointed to learn about the changes to the system for guest confirmations.  You have ruined my ability to plan family vacations and destroyed any reason for me to continue to be a Club Wyndham Platinum member.
> 
> I plan family vacations for myself and my relatives in advance, especially in hard to book locations a year in advance - sometimes longer than that using advance reservations.  At that point in time I have no idea of who in the family may be able to come and don't actually put in guest names until the last minute because there are always last minute emergencies that require changes.  I  always add the guest reservation before the date based on prior rules.
> 
> You have killed my ability to plan these family vacations with the new guest confirmation policies.  There is no longer any reason for me to maintain a Platinum membership and I will plan to give up my membership as soon as possible using my contract stipulations."



I'm guessing they will tell you that is why as a platinum owner you get 15 free guest confirmations per 1M points. You will be required to use your free guest confirmations and you will have to use another one or pay for additional ones if your free ones have all been used to change the name on the reservations if your relatives plans change. Wyndham isn't going to back down or change anything because you or any other owners aren't happy. I have to say I'm really surprised that Wyndham is making all these different changes. They seem to have put some real thought into how to improve things for the bulk of the owners while putting a stop to the mega renters and hindering the point managers in a big way too.

While I don't have to like the changes I do understand why the changes they are instituting have become necessary. They are not just to put a stop to the mega renters and point managers who book up the best reservations in the prime weeks making it hard for the bulk of owners to get stays. It also means that owners who book multiple units and sit on them until "the last minute in case plans change" won't be able to hoard inventory. You can book a stay for yourself and if you want to also book additional units for friends or family you need to have a commitment from them or waste a guest confirmation. It also means no more booking several small units and several big units at the 10 and 13 month windows to be able to cancel and rebook them to get the discount and free upgrades when your discount window hits to make sure you end up with as many units as you want in case you lose one or two in the cancel and rebook process. There are a lot of VIP owners who do that and it ties up a lot of inventory that they have no intention of using. This solution addresses the non VIP owners complaints about VIP owners abuses in manipulating the system in ways Wyndham never intended. Yes I know the sales people are the ones who taught us to do it.


----------



## Jan M.

nicemann said:


> Maybe I misread in the past but how many guest certificates does platinum VIP get each year?  I was thinking it was unlimited.


 
Complimentary Guest Confirmations for Platinum owners

Receive complimentary Guest Confirmations each calendar year to share with family and friends.
15 per 1,000,000 eligible points


----------



## Bigrob

Jan M. said:


> I'm guessing they will tell you that is why as a platinum owner you get 15 free guest confirmations per 1M points. You will be required to use your free guest confirmations and you will have to use another one or pay for additional ones if your free ones have all been used to change the name on the reservations if your relatives plans change. Wyndham isn't going to back down or change anything because you or any other owners aren't happy. I have to say I'm really surprised that Wyndham is making all these different changes. They seem to have put some real thought into how to improve things for the bulk of the owners while putting a stop to the mega renters and hindering the point managers in a big way too.
> 
> I do understand why the changes they are instituting have become necessary. They are not just to put a stop to the mega renters and point managers who book up the best reservations in the prime weeks making it hard for the bulk of owners to get stays. It also means that that owners who book multiple units and sit on them until "the last minute in case plans change" won't be able to hoard inventory. You can book a stay for yourself and if you want to also book additional units for friends or family you need to have a commitment from them or waste a guest confirmation. It also means no more booking several small units and several big units at the 10 and 13 month windows to be able to cancel and rebook them to get the discount and free upgrades when your discount window hits to make sure you end up with as many units as you want in case you lose one or two in the cancel and rebook process. There are a lot of VIP owners who do that and it ties up a lot of inventory that they have no intention of using. This solution addresses the non VIP owners complaints about VIP owners abuses in manipulating the system in ways Wyndham never intended. Yes I know the sales people are the ones who taught us to do it.


----------



## wed100105

bnoble said:


> No, you still can. But borrowing is quite limited. During the Standard window, you can only borrow points up to a portion of the last night's stay. In the Express window, you can borrow as much as you want.
> 
> 
> Take a deep breath, and lets see what happens. It is too soon to speculate. But, at the very least, upgrades will be available in the situations in which they were originally intended---resorts with excess inventory close to check-in date.



Thanks Brian for being a voice of reason---as usual.  I figure I'll enjoy my HHI Royal Dunes week more regularly. <3


----------



## Bigrob

Jan M. said:


> They seem to have put some real thought into how to improve things for the bulk of the owners while putting a stop to the mega renters and hindering the point managers in a big way too.



Actually points managers are the ones best able to work around the new rules. With hundreds of accounts to choose from it is easy to avoid having overlapping reservations in the same (single) account... just move on to the next account.


----------



## Braindead

We will hardly ever use the auto upgrade box. I enjoy sitting outside drinking coffee in the morning and a drink in the evening.
The last thing I want is an upgrade at Bonnet Creek taking my fireworks- lake view to no fireworks - parking garage view. 

These changes are here for awhile. Wyndham isn't going to change back in a week. Everyone needs to see how they play out. Your complaints today probably meet the delete tab


----------



## ronparise

Jan M. said:


> Complimentary Guest Confirmations for Platinum owners
> 
> Receive complimentary Guest Confirmations each calendar year to share with family and friends.
> 15 per 1,000,000 eligible points



actually the way it works out is that if you have exactly one million points you get 15, but if you have 1,000,001 points you get 30.  then at 2,000,001 you would get 45

so if I use my points for high value weekends (at Labelle Maison 4 nights in a studio is 89000 points), my 2 million point account will get 22 reservations.  so I would have enough guest confirms to blow 2 on each reservation


----------



## JimMIA

Lita said:


> There is no longer any reason for me to maintain a Platinum membership and I will plan to give up my membership as soon as possible using my contract."


I know you mean that as a threat.  Hopefully, Wyndham won't read it as an *opportunity* to grab a ton of points for free!


----------



## Jan M.

bestresort said:


> Mega rentors held mf's down thru use
> 
> Puts mega rentors out of business and will leave many popular resorts with unused inventory



I believe those statements to be false. Unused inventory doesn't cost owners anything. On the other hand resorts that are heavily used and favored by the mega renters and point managers have higher operating and replacement costs. The used unit incurs more electric and water usage so higher utility bills. Heavily used resorts require more refurbishing and replacement. The pools and common areas need more upkeep, replacement, etc. from heavier usage. All those little bottles of shampoo, soaps, rolls of paper towels, etc. aren't free. And who pays for all of these different expenses? The owners at those resorts do in their maintenance fees. Does a single penny go into the coffers at their resorts from all the rentals to offset the higher expenses of the heavy usage? No. There are no bonuses awarded nor compensation given to resorts from Wyndham's pockets because a lot of units get occupied.


----------



## md8287

scootr5 said:


> You _might_ run in to a problem if your check out in Las Vegas is on Friday, and you booked the checkin in Sedona for Thursday (unless you have multiple owners on the account traveling with you and selected the other owner).


So I'm newer Platinum level owner so this might have been something I missed before but when referring to overlapping reservations I ASSUMED it meant at same resort. Like with Westin once I had a res ending on Friday in Bahamas and another starting day before in Cancun as we took my parents away and from there my wife and I went to Cancun. That's an overlap and I have to put a guest cert on one?


----------



## md8287

ronparise said:


> so if I use my points for high value weekends (at Labelle Maison 4 nights in a studio is 89000 points), my 2 million point account will get 22 reservations.  so I would have enough guest confirms to blow 2 on each reservation


 So I used to be able to have 10 overlapping reservations in my name but now I can only have 1? But if I assign a guest certificate (real end renter or not) I can have as many as I want (but pay guest cert fee)?


----------



## ronparise

md8287 said:


> So I'm newer Platinum level owner so this might have been something I missed before but when referring to overlapping reservations I ASSUMED it meant at same resort. Like with Westin once I had a res ending on Friday in Bahamas and another starting day before in Cancun as we took my parents away and from there my wife and I went to Cancun. That's an overlap and I have to put a guest cert on one?




I wouldnt assume that... The current rule say you cant have overlapping reservations inside 15 days without a guest confirm  and it means at any resort


----------



## ronparise

md8287 said:


> So I used to be able to have 10 overlapping reservations in my name but now I can only have 1? But if I assign a guest certificate (real end renter or not) I can have as many as I want (but pay guest cert fee)?




I think we are still subject to the 10 nightly limit rule


----------



## ronparise

Braindead said:


> No one may like the credit pool change  but I understand why the change was made.
> 
> Mega renter had 200 million points in multiple accounts. He passes away and used 3 years of points. Who pays the MFs. No heir wants the liability. Estate is probably not liable. Their account is current on MFs. Estate not liable for future bills not billed prior to owner passing.
> 
> Somebody knows they are going to file bankruptcy . So credit pool points to take a big vacation. Probably still owes on the original points. Wyndam or us owners stuck with the foreclosure and MFs.
> 
> I'm sure Wyndham has already been exposed to some of this.




That was my business plan. Buy a contract, credit pool 3 years points, make reservations and rent them out... the following year I would credit pool one year out and use those points>>>so in my first year of ownership I would make a ton of money and then just break even for the rest of my life... To make money in the second year Id buy more points and do it again

I was aked more than once what my exit plan was... The answer is Im gonna die


----------



## dcdowden

I registered for the preview site last September when I got my first email from Wyndham describing it.  I logged on today to check it out, and there was so specific ownership info related to my account.  Just my name and security info.  I didn't even see my account number anywhere.  I called a VC and they said not to worry - it will all be uploaded before the new system goes on-line.

With the ability to make ARP reservations on-line coming, I also asked how would someone make a request to reserve a specific unit - which is something we have been doing for over ten years as a Plat VIP benefit.  The VC said that was a good question - she said that there would be a way to add specific requests to your reservation, but didn't know how those requests would be handled.
Doug


----------



## WhiskeyJack

So what is the definition of an overlapping reservation?  I have several owners listed on my account.  I believe that if I have multiple reservations with overlapping dates that these reservation would not be subject to cancellation, as long as each had a different owner attached to the reservation.  Does this seem correct?


----------



## antjmar

Lita said:


> That is exactly right.  I called and confirmed I could not have duplicate reservations for more than 48 hours from initial confirmation.  As I posted above, I sent this complaint using the online system.  Have not yet gotten a response:
> 
> "I was very disappointed to learn about the changes to the system for guest confirmations.  You have ruined my ability to plan family vacations and destroyed any reason for me to continue to be a Club Wyndham Platinum member.



If you have two names on account can you have 2 units?
Does this apply to ARP?

I might just have to unconvert my weeks back to fixed weeks...


----------



## Sandy VDH

Well to be on the safe side I pooled by 2018 points.  I didn't ask about 2019, but the document was pretty specific, not 2019 Pooling, so I don't bother asking.

As most here gripe, I too concur that the loss of the pool is a big ouch.  The Pooled points option basically gave you a 5+ year window access to points, as we are given a current plus 2 year view of points.  You could have pooled points for the 2 years prior to the currently UY and still had them available to book anything AND you could have also pooled current year, plus 2 additional years out.  So you could have ended up with 5 years worth of points available to do any booking, even during STANDARD reservation period.  So again Pooled as envisioned and pool as being used ended up as 2 different things.  It is that unintended consequences issues.  Let's face it that was an extremely generous approach compared to other systems.

So now Wyndham is doing more like what my HGVC and HICV has in some sort of way, but with a twist.  HGVC you pay to move them 1 additional Year, but 1 yr is the max, however you can borrow them back for no costs for anything this year. So in HGVC system is it cheaper to always be in borrow mode not in save mode.   HICV you automatically get a FREE roll over to the next year, so you have to do nothing, and pay nothing to roll.  You can then extend them but you start to pay hefty fees to move them some additional time.  But with HICV they allow you to borrow, but they charge you per 1000 points borrowed.  So it is not great to be in a borrow position, but it is free to roll over. So with HICV it is always cheaper to be in save mode. So both of these approaches makes points available NOW and NEXT year, with some costs associated with it. But both end up with a completely opposite approach to minimize costs. 

So Wyndham's twist.  You can move them out more than 1 year, say 2 Years.  But NOW you have lost the ability to use them for anything EXCEPT to borrow during Express season.  So a more restrictive in usage, but more flexible in depositing or saving and you can pick the year you want.  So it makes planning a little more difficult, but it is flexible, perhaps too flexible.  But it is more in line with what other systems allow you to do. We will just have to find the Wyndham sweet spot. 

I can also see why the refund for cash on rented points has come into play.  Before it gave you flexibility to rent points, cancel and then do anything else you wanted with those points.  So although Wyndham gives up revenue by refunding the rental, they curb abuse of those rental points being used for other purposes.

Again I can complain about some of the things that Wyndham does, but I can also understand that, as compared with other systems, they were very generous with some of the features, and generous in a way that people could take advance of it for FAR MORE than Wyndham ever intended.  Again back to that Unintended Consequences.

It will change the way I act but only in a minor way, I was not one to automatically pool my points. I would say that 85% of my bookings are in the Express Reservation Window anyway.  I don't really try to hold units on speculation to rent them out.  So it did not impact me as much as it might impact others. But I will be required to adjust my behavior for sure.

And just because VIP upgrades are now suppose to be automatic, it does not mean that people will still not go out and cancel and rebook, to get a cheaper unit during the upgrade window.  Only time will tell, I actually think that some of these changes will make more units available NOT LESS.


----------



## Jan M.

WhiskeyJack said:


> So what is the definition of an overlapping reservation?  I have several owners listed on my account.  I believe that if I have multiple reservations with overlapping dates that these reservation would not be subject to cancellation, as long as each had a different owner attached to the reservation.  Does this seem correct?



I think that is correct.


----------



## Sandy VDH

WhiskeyJack said:


> So what is the definition of an overlapping reservation?  I have several owners listed on my account.  I believe that if I have multiple reservations with overlapping dates that these reservation would not be subject to cancellation, as long as each had a different owner attached to the reservation.  Does this seem correct?



Yes I believe you are correct, just book a unit with a different owner name, no GC charged.  Useful if you have a lot of names listed under your account.


----------



## asreiter

If we can no longer pull points from future years this will also eliminate selling stripped contracts right?


----------



## bendadin

So is the 10 contracts per membership not even addressed in this huge change?


----------



## Sandy VDH

nicemann said:


> Maybe I misread in the past but how many guest certificates does platinum VIP get each year?  I was thinking it was unlimited.



It was unlimited as some point for Platinum at least, but we lost that in the last big round of changes.


----------



## nicemann

Sandy VDH said:


> It was unlimited as some point for Platinum at least, but we lost that in the last big round of changes.



Yeah I was reading some old information out there.  Thanks to Jan and yourself for the clarification.


----------



## ronparise

asreiter said:


> If we can no longer pull points from future years this will also eliminate selling stripped contracts right?



exactly right

you could of course use all your 2018 points for January reservations and sell sometime late 2017, so settlement would happen in February... That way the buyer would only get the 2019 and 2020 points.. so partially stripped


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## Braindead

bendadin said:


> So is the 10 contracts per membership not even addressed in this huge change?


No not yet. But I don't think any limit on contracts is listed in the directories


----------



## scootr5

Braindead said:


> No not yet. But I don't think any limit on contracts is listed in the directories



No, but isn't there already (or was at one time recently) a 40 contract limit? I'm guessing @ronparise would know.

I'm not sure that's really something that would be listed in the directory.


----------



## spackler

ronparise said:


> exactly right
> 
> you could of course use all your 2018 points for January reservations and sell sometime late 2017, so settlement would happen in February... That way the buyer would only get the 2019 and 2020 points.. so partially stripped



Why wait?  Book Jan/Feb reservations right now, sell contract immediately. Contract settles in August; but seller still keeps early '18 reservations.


----------



## Jan M.

bendadin said:


> So is the 10 contracts per membership not even addressed in this huge change?



I'm not sure this is something they would put in the directory. And as they don't even have a launch date yet who is to say they are done rolling out changes. I doubt there are many Wyndham owners who have 10 direct sale contracts in their accounts and I can't see Wyndham being concerned with the fate of resale owners as Wyndham doesn't make money off them. 

Since I first read the post about the 10 contract limit I've wondered if having a large number of contracts in one account might have something to do with why some people have points appearing and disappearing in their accounts. Is it more than the system can handle resulting in points accounting problems?

I can see advantages to Wyndham sales if they impose a 10 contract limit. Say you have 7 or 8 smaller contracts at various resorts. You go to an update and the sales person tells you about the rule and that for a minimum purchase costing you only this much we can "fix" your account. Many of us have experienced the sales people offering to "fix' issues with our accounts in the updates so we know just how the spiel goes. They take back however many of your contracts/deeds and roll them over into one new bigger contract/deed and you go merrily on your way having "only" spent $10-$15k more and getting maybe 105k more points.

As Ron said it is easy for them to identify the accounts with more than 10 contracts in them, set those accounts up for review and handle them on an individual basis like they've done with the frozen accounts.


----------



## Lita

ronparise said:


> Yes
> 
> they have
> 
> 
> 
> it hasnt ended your familiy reunions... but it will cost another guest confirm...



I don't know about your family reunions, but I will frequently plan for three to four units with a large family several times  year.  That's why I built my ownership to Platinum level.  This is taking away the benefits upon which I chose to do so.  It frequently happens that someone ends up with a work emergency or other "life" emergency and I have to make last minutes changes on a reservation.  If I must use one guest confirmation for each unit I book over the first, then one when I finally confirm whose going and then make additional changes nearer to the time of travel, I could easily end up using three guest confirmations for each unit.   I am a single person with a large family.  This is definitely taking away a primary benefit for VIP members.

This also puts single VIP members at a disadvantage over VIP memberships with multiple owners.  Single VIP members will now have a lower class of membership and forced to waste more guest certificates because these isn't multiple owners.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Well, the new 14 day long reservation will be interesting as to how that will work at the OLD fixed week resorts. I don't think guests who book 14 day stay will understand WHY they are "homeless" during their reservation. (Homeless means changing units .. esp true at the older deeded fixed week units .. as fixed week owners get real UNHAPPPY if their yearly unit is occupied.)


----------



## Lita

Jan M. said:


> It also means no more booking several small units and several big units at the 10 and 13 month windows to be able to cancel and rebook them to get the discount and free upgrades when your discount window hits to make sure you end up with as many units as you want in case you lose one or two in the cancel and rebook process. There are a lot of VIP owners who do that and it ties up a lot of inventory that they have no intention of using. This solution addresses the non VIP owners complaints about VIP owners abuses in manipulating the system in ways Wyndham never intended. Yes I know the sales people are the ones who taught us to do it.



This is exactly the benefit upon which I suspect many VIP owners purchased additional points to get to VIP level.  It's not hurting anyone.  In fact, knowing that people do this in the 60 day window enables me to book most of my vacations at 60 days out for half the cost of a unit.  Many times I can then upgrade that to a larger unit closer to the date in question people cancel before the 15 day window.

What this change is doing will do more damage to those of us that try to plan multiple family vacations through the year.


----------



## ronparise

antjmar said:


> Ron what about if you used your ARP for multiple reservations? I would think if you own deeded rights at a resort they can't restrict use.



The 10 nightly limit has an exception for ARP but I don't see anything about the new guest policy


----------



## hiserman79

Credit pool loss sucks, don't like reservation for every transaction because I often end up with split reservations for some reason so I assume I'll have 2 transactions for one stay when this happens. I've never switched rooms so I wonder if along with house keeping credits will they refund the the 2nd transaction fee if no room switch.
Other than than that looks like some panic gonna get me another contract off eBay pretty cheap soon.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## Braindead

Any day check in might eliminate some split reservations. 

Being able to make a reservation for more than 7 days might save some transactions also


----------



## am1

Braindead said:


> Any day check in might eliminate some split reservations.
> 
> Being able to make a reservation for more than 7 days might save some transactions also




How would a future upgrade work reservations that check in any day and for more then 7 nights.  Not likely a Tuesday until the following Friday will become available all at once.  How many unit/nights will be empty because people originally book 14 nights but ultimately decide to use less?  Will the 48 hour no show rule still apply when the resort is oversold and wanting to steal units?  The sorry I do not see it noted on the reservation that the guest would be arriving late.  The stay has been cancelled and cannot be reinstated.  Who did you speak with on the phone?  

It was great Wyndham has been spending so much time on this instead of working to unlock my accounts over the last 8 months.  

These changes are not good for most owners but with every other change I will find away to adapt and continue to rent units at a profit.  

The $99 guest fee was an added and outrageous expense but it only forced me to rent larger units with free upgrades from the smaller units.  That was an eye opener at the time and has worked out overall.  I estimate I have paid well into the 6 figures for guest confirmations though. 

Once again this goes to show that timeshares are rarely a good purchase as management can change the rules at anytime.  They can do it to benefit one set of owners or another or even (mostly) themselves.  Its the unceartainity of it all that should keep buyers away.  This also helps my business as people would rather rent then own.


----------



## famy27

So, I am trying to figure out how this is actually going to play out with the 48 hour GC add when the system goes live. They are just going to send an email and then, if you have overlapping reservations don't add a guest cert in 48 hours, they will just cancel one or both? I can imagine there are lots of owners who don't read every Wyndham email (even if it says "IMPORTANT! READ OR DIE!"), and I think they will probably be very displeased to find out that their family reunion reservations made months ago just disappeared.

I will be watching my email carefully and will be ready to snag the cancelled reservations, if I can get anything for the summer within driving distance.


----------



## Jan M.

Lita said:


> I don't know about your family reunions, but I will frequently plan for three to four units with a large family several times  year.  That's why I built my ownership to Platinum level.  This is taking away the benefits upon which I chose to do so.  It frequently happens that someone ends up with a work emergency or other "life" emergency and I have to make last minutes changes on a reservation.  If I must use one guest confirmation for each unit I book over the first, then one when I finally confirm whose going and then make additional changes nearer to the time of travel, I could easily end up using three guest confirmations for each unit.   I am a single person with a large family.  This is definitely taking away a primary benefit for VIP members.



Is there anyone in your family whose name or names you would consider adding to your deeds? If something were to happen to you who would you want your ownership to go to? How about setting up a family trust? That would give you multiple owners and you can make a reservation in each one of their names. You wouldn't have to give them access to the account, however it would make them responsible for the maintenance fees if some day you end up the crazy old lady who lets the mail pile up and quits paying her bills. 

Another possible solution is if you have one couple that you know you can count on to be able to go on the vacation you're planning then you could list each of them as the guest covering two reservations and a third reservation would be in your name. At check in they can have whoever is actually staying in the other unit give their credit card for the security deposit. And at check in they would list the names of the people staying in that unit so they can all get keys. 

I dislike thinking of you stressing and upset about this. There are solutions, alternative ways to make it work for you and I hope we can help you find them. There was something with Wyndham that really upset me a few years ago. I usually get over things quickly but this one really got to me. A timeshare acquaintance advised me to either let it go and not let it ruin our enjoyment of using the timeshare or to walk away from the timeshare. No way I wanted to give up the timeshare so I took his advice and let it go. In our stays since then we have encountered people who didn't let it go. They let their issue/problem poison their ability to enjoy using their timeshare and I saw how easily that could have been me.


----------



## am1

Jan M. said:


> Is there anyone in your family whose name or names you would consider adding to your deeds? If something were to happen to you who would you want your ownership to go to? How about setting up a family trust? That would give you multiple owners and you can make a reservation in each one of their names. You wouldn't have to give them access to the account, however it would make them responsible for the maintenance fees if some day you end up the crazy old lady who lets the mail pile up and quits paying her bills.
> 
> Another possible solution is if you have one couple that you know you can count on to be able to go on the vacation you're planning then you could list each of them as the guest covering two reservations and a third reservation would be in your name. At check in they can have whoever is actually staying in the other unit give their credit card for the security deposit. And at check in they would list the names of the people staying in that unit so they can all get keys.
> 
> I dislike thinking of you stressing and upset about this. There are solutions, alternative ways to make it work for you and I hope we can help you find them. There was something with Wyndham that really upset me a few years ago. I usually get over things quickly but this one really got to me. A timeshare acquaintance advised me to either let it go and not let it ruin our enjoyment of using the timeshare or to walk away from the timeshare. No way I wanted to give up the timeshare so I took his advice and let it go. In our stays since then we have encountered people who didn't let it go. They let their issue/problem poison their ability to enjoy using their timeshare and I saw how easily that could have been me.




Why should be we have to go through all these hoops after paying tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars upfront and then thousands of dollars a year afterwards?  Some resorts only will allow the person whose name the room is under add their credit card at check in.


----------



## wed100105

What ag


famy27 said:


> So, I am trying to figure out how this is actually going to play out with the 48 hour GC add when the system goes live. They are just going to send an email and then, if you have overlapping reservations don't add a guest cert in 48 hours, they will just cancel one or both? I can imagine there are lots of owners who don't read every Wyndham email (even if it says "IMPORTANT! READ OR DIE!"), and I think they will probably be very displeased to find out that their family reunion reservations made months ago just disappeared.
> 
> I will be watching my email carefully and will be ready to snag the cancelled reservations, if I can get anything for the summer within driving distance.




I asked this question point-blank to the vacation guide today. He said we would get advanced notice. I said, "Like the advanced notice I received that I would no longer be able to credit pool my 2019 points?" He said, "yes." Ugh! Don't count on advanced notice. 

I had several dells reservations for the end of May, and I went ahead and resented them out today and got guest confirmations on them. Most of them were not upgrades, and in the past I have seen a ton of availability open up once it got closer. I just adjusted my price accordingly. I didn't want to risk losing them.


----------



## Lita

Jan M. said:


> Is there anyone in your family whose name or names you would consider adding to your deeds? If something were to happen to you who would you want your ownership to go to? How about setting up a family trust? That would give you multiple owners and you can make a reservation in each one of their names. You wouldn't have to give them access to the account, however it would make them responsible for the maintenance fees if some day you end up the crazy old lady who lets the mail pile up and quits paying her bills.



Adding a name makes them financially responsible for the MFs.  I don't intend to force this on any family member.  My plan was to set up a trust, but at this point no one is interested in taking on the MF obligation. While they do share in the costs of MFs when they use the unit, taking on the obligation is a much bigger decision.

I did attach Pathways to a contract.  I am hoping that will still be available in some form when I choose to exit. Luckily I bought most of my points from Wyndham as foreclosure units or units that had been abandoned at greatly reduced prices.

I am hoping that Wyndham will see that this sets up smaller families as lessor owners with lessor benefits than memberships with more members.  It is an unfair reduction of benefits to those with smaller family ownership.


----------



## Jan M.

am1 said:


> How would a future upgrade work reservations that check in any day and for more then 7 nights.  Not likely a Tuesday until the following Friday will become available all at once.  How many unit/nights will be empty because people originally book 14 nights but ultimately decide to use less?  Will the 48 hour no show rule still apply when the resort is oversold and wanting to steal units?  The sorry I do not see it noted on the reservation that the guest would be arriving late.  The stay has been cancelled and cannot be reinstated.  Who did you speak with on the phone?
> 
> It was great Wyndham has been spending so much time on this instead of working to unlock my accounts over the last 8 months.
> 
> These changes are not good for most owners but with every other change I will find away to adapt and continue to rent units at a profit.
> 
> The $99 guest fee was an added and outrageous expense but it only forced me to rent larger units with free upgrades from the smaller units.  That was an eye opener at the time and has worked out overall.  I estimate I have paid well into the 6 figures for guest confirmations though.
> 
> Once again this goes to show that timeshares are rarely a good purchase as management can change the rules at anytime.  They can do it to benefit one set of owners or another or even (mostly) themselves.  Its the unceartainity of it all that should keep buyers away.  This also helps my business as people would rather rent then own.



You are correct about the upgrade on split reservations being a big issue. No one wants to move units because part of their stay got upgraded and the other part didn't. So owners will have to use more points to get the larger unit you really want and need. 

I speculated months ago that anything they did would end up forcing owners to use more points and increase sales for Wyndham. I'm not saying that some changes weren't needed. Just that Wyndham is in business like any other business to make money. When the people at the top sit down with their people and ask what is the single biggest problem we face in increasing our revenues. Every single time the answer is going to be what the sales people hear over and over. Why should I buy when I can rent from an owner or why would I buy from you when I can buy resale for a fraction of the cost?


----------



## Braindead

am1 said:


> Why should be we have to go through all these hoops after paying tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars upfront and then thousands of dollars a year afterwards?  Some resorts only will allow the person whose name the room is under add their credit card at check in.


Because some individuals have setup commercial rental businesses and Wyndham feels the need to stop them


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## Lita

Braindead said:


> Because some individuals have setup commercial rental businesses and Wyndham feels the need to stop them



That may be Wyndham's goal but they are screwing a lot of members who don't have commercial rental businesses in the process.


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## Sandy VDH

yep, that is the conversation I had with Wyndham last week.  They are tightening the rules on everyone to cut down on uses and abuses, when most of us are NOT abusing but we are getting the punishment for it anyway.


----------



## Braindead

Lita said:


> That may be Wyndham's goal but they are screwing a lot of members who don't have commercial rental businesses in the process.


Agree with you and Sandy


----------



## Joe33426

vacationhopeful said:


> Well, the new 14 day long reservation will be interesting as to how that will work at the OLD fixed week resorts. I don't think guests who book 14 day stay will understand WHY they are "homeless" during their reservation. (Homeless means changing units .. esp true at the older deeded fixed week units .. as fixed week owners get real UNHAPPPY if their yearly unit is occupied.)



I looked at the 14 day thing again, because that's appealing for us.  We really like having extra days at the end and beginning of our vacations, so we can check right in the day we arrive (check-in a day late) and linger if we have to on the final day (check out a day early).

There is a asterisk on the 14 days saying that 14 day reservations may not be available at certain resorts and that check-in days may be fixed at certain resorts.  I'm sure for resorts originally sold as fixed weeks that 14-day reservations or mid-week check-in won't be available, but for resorts sold purely as UDI, that really shouldn't be a problem.  

Any ideas when this will go live?   

I just took screen captures of my current point status and current reservations just in case....


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## Braindead

The 10 contract max affected me. But I would've liked to see what it would of accomplished first. Save these changes if that didn't work.

The only change that I agree needed to be addressed was with the credit pool.
Not saying this was the best way. But they had to stop future years coming available now
Some of the other changes were good and helped most owners


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## Avislo

Joe33426 said:


> I looked at the 14 day thing again, because that's appealing for us.  We really like having extra days at the end and beginning of our vacations, so we can check right in the day we arrive (check-in a day late) and linger if we have to on the final day (check out a day early).
> 
> There is a asterisk on the 14 days saying that 14 day reservations may not be available at certain resorts and that check-in days may be fixed at certain resorts.  I'm sure for resorts originally sold as fixed weeks that 14-day reservations or mid-week check-in won't be available, but for resorts sold purely as UDI, that really shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> Any ideas when this will go live?
> 
> I just took screen captures of my current point status and current reservations just in case....



Wise move on the screen shots.  The written position is latter this spring.  As of this morning, Owners Care is talking about the supplement to some degree.  They also indicated latter this spring.  A internet site called the 1st day of Summer this year as June 27, 2017.


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## Bigrob

The go live I heard is May 20.


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## ronparise

They could have required payment for the points pulled forward


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## ronparise

scootr5 said:


> No, but isn't there already (or was at one time recently) a 40 contract limit? I'm guessing @ronparise would know.
> 
> I'm not sure that's really something that would be listed in the directory.




It is(was) 40 and although I had heard that it was 40 I didn't know for sure until my 41st  settled


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## spackler

The elimination of the credit pool is a serious hit, even for this resale owner.  Now I have to know precisely how many points I'll be using in precisely the correct year.

I can see a lot of wasted points occurring in the future.


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## ronparise

Jan M. said:


> I'm not sure this is something they would put in the directory. And as they don't even have a launch date yet who is to say they are done rolling out changes. I doubt there are many Wyndham owners who have 10 direct sale contracts in their accounts and I can't see Wyndham being concerned with the fate of resale owners as Wyndham doesn't make money off them.
> 
> Since I first read the post about the 10 contract limit I've wondered if having a large number of contracts in one account might have something to do with why some people have points appearing and disappearing in their accounts. Is it more than the system can handle resulting in points accounting problems?
> 
> I can see advantages to Wyndham sales if they impose a 10 contract limit. Say you have 7 or 8 smaller contracts at various resorts. You go to an update and the sales person tells you about the rule and that for a minimum purchase costing you only this much we can "fix" your account. Many of us have experienced the sales people offering to "fix' issues with our accounts in the updates so we know just how the spiel goes. They take back however many of your contracts/deeds and roll them over into one new bigger contract/deed and you go merrily on your way having "only" spent $10-$15k more and getting maybe 105k more points.
> 
> As Ron said it is easy for them to identify the accounts with more than 10 contracts in them, set those accounts up for review and handle them on an individual basis like they've done with the frozen accounts.


 The reason for a 10 contract limit if thats something they are going to do is to put a limit on the number of resale points that get VIP benefits

So if I have a VIP account made up of 3 direct purchases or 2 pics and one direct purchase I can only add 7 resale contracts. The 8th goes to a new account and it won't be VIP. 

You are right that the fix will be another direct purchase and a consolidation


----------



## uscav8r

Lita said:


> Adding a name makes them financially responsible for the MFs.  I don't intend to force this on any family member.  My plan was to set up a trust, but at this point no one is interested in taking on the MF obligation. While they do share in the costs of MFs when they use the unit, taking on the obligation is a much bigger decision.
> 
> I did attach Pathways to a contract.  I am hoping that will still be available in some form when I choose to exit. Luckily I bought most of my points from Wyndham as foreclosure units or units that had been abandoned at greatly reduced prices.
> 
> I am hoping that Wyndham will see that this sets up smaller families as lessor owners with lessor benefits than memberships with more members.  It is an unfair reduction of benefits to those with smaller family ownership.


There are low-risk ways of getting around this if you open your mind to the possibilities. 

I added several owners to my account when I bought a small 32k contract (I had to be one of the owners on the deed for this to work). They are only financially liable for about $12/month for that contract only. But they have ability to use all my points as owners. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sandy VDH

On one of the other threads this just came up, but I will post here for impressions. 

OK they have added a feature that lets you request an upgrade at time of booking during SRP, and when the Upgrade windows becomes available, if an upgrade is available it will process it automatically.  

But I am assuming they have NOT eliminated other current methods of booking and upgrading a unit.  So during upgrade window in ERP if there is still units available and there are upgrade opportunities, the system should still allow the upgrade of these units.  Do you think that functionality will stay or will go away with this new upgrade request.


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## ronparise

Im sure it will stay. The key words in what you say are "if available".

So that means that discounts and upgrades will be used for their real purpose to get the stuff no one wants, reserved

If available? You wanna guess how many Mardi Gras or bike week reservations will be available at 60 days, or how many 4th of July weeks at the beach


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## Sandy VDH

ronparise said:


> Im sure it will stay. The key words in what you say are "if available".
> 
> So that means that discounts and upgrades will be used for their real purpose to get the stuff no one wants, reserved
> 
> If available? You wanna guess how many Mardi Gras or bike week reservations will be available at 60 days, or how many 4th of July weeks at the beach



Not any Ron, but I don't expect those to be in there at 60 day mark.  The vast majority 80% of my bookings are likely inside the 60 day mark. So having the ability to upgrade as it is now is something I am interested in.  Not in the business of finding high demand stays during the discount period.


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## ecwinch

The irony here is that - since they did not implement a waitlist - cancel/rebook still survives for the smallest units.

It is just cancel/rebook/upgrade that gets a lot more difficult.


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## ronparise

Sandy VDH said:


> Not any Ron, but I don't expect those to be in there at 60 day mark.  The vast majority 80% of my bookings are likely inside the 60 day mark. So having the ability to upgrade as it is now is something I am interested in.  Not in the business of finding high demand stays during the discount period.



You will be fine, that's what the discounts and upgrades are for.


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## ronparise

ecwinch said:


> The irony here is that - since they did not implement a waitlist - cancel/rebook still survives for the smallest units.
> 
> It is just cancel/rebook/upgrade that gets a lot more difficult.




That's actually a big change, and a big deal.  
You are right that we can probably cancel and rebook a studio. And as nice as that might be the end result is  a half price studio.  So I save (steal) 60000  points from the club.  Compare that to the guy that gets a 3 bedroom for half the studio rate.  A savings of up to 250000 points or more

These new rules won't  stop all the abuse, but it will likely stop a bunch


----------



## Joe33426

Overall, I think that the changes won't really affect many.   Except for the fact that one RT not being good for an entire day, which kinda stinks.  Otherwise, I think the positives outweigh that negative for most.  Those used to credit pooling, probably won't be happy.  Stripping contracts will end, which is probably a good thing.  That practice always sounded like a ponzi scheme to me.  

I'm really excited about the laxing of the rules regarding check-in day and also the length of the reservation.  It will be interesting to see how that pans out.  I'm thinking that the new policy might create a lot of orphaned days, which is probably an unintended consequence. 

Is this how reservations work in Worldmark?  I ask because I don't own any.  Does Worldmark allow 14 day reservations and any checkin day?


----------



## uscav8r

Joe33426 said:


> I'm really excited about the laxing of the rules regarding check-in day and also the length of the reservation.  It will be interesting to see how that pans out.  I'm thinking that the new policy might create a lot of orphaned days, which is probably an unintended consequence.
> 
> Is this how reservations work in Worldmark?  I ask because I don't own any.  Does Worldmark allow 14 day reservations and any checkin day?


WorldMark does allow any day check in. The length of stay is limited only by the number of credits one owns, so stays of 30, 45, or more days are certainly possible. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wed100105

I am on my phone now and it is hard to see the fine print.

I saw that we can book up to 14 days and single days. Can we book stays that aren't 3,4 or 7 nights in prime season?


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## scootr5

wed100105 said:


> I am on my phone now and it is hard to see the fine print.
> 
> I saw that we can book up to 14 days and single days. Can we book stays that aren't 3,4 or 7 nights in prime season?



Yes, dependent upon individual resort policies. In other words, it will vary by resort.


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## Bigrob

I believe inside of 14 days the frustrating problem of "doublets" goes away, you'll be able to pick up the single night you need. Outside of 14 days I don't think you can book a single night and you used to be able to if one was "orphaned" from the rest of its week... not sure if that ability is going away now outside 14 days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bogey21

am1 said:


> Once again this goes to show that timeshares are rarely a good purchase as management can change the rules at anytime.  They can do it to benefit one set of owners or another or even (mostly) themselves.



This is exactly the reason that I replaced my 4 Marriott Weeks some 25 or so years ago with Fixed Week/Fixed Unit Weeks at HOA controlled Independent Resorts.  This one decision resulted in many years of stress free TimeSharing.

George


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## spackler

So, if I move points using the new & unimproved "Points Deposit Feature" but still don't use them by the end of the new use year, can I at least dump them into RCI?  Or are they restricted similar to current Credit Pool points?


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## bnoble

wed100105 said:


> I figure I'll enjoy my HHI Royal Dunes week more regularly.


There's nothing wrong with that! We _loved_ our stay there a few summers ago.


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## NCQuilter

ronparise said:


> If I read this right, they have put an end to speculative bookings... and to megarenting as we know it
> 
> If you have overlapping reservations a guests name must be added within 48 hours of confirmation If no guests name then the reservations will be cancelled and points forfeited
> 
> so no more making 10 reservations for one event and then advertising to find your paying guest..
> 
> as I see it this makes large scale commercial renting a thing of the past
> 
> and with the upgrade button there will be no cancel/rebook of popular reservations, except perhaps studios (and 1 bedrooms at the places that dont have studios)





ronparise said:


> If I read this right, they have put an end to speculative bookings... and to megarenting as we know it
> 
> If you have overlapping reservations a guests name must be added within 48 hours of confirmation If no guests name then the reservations will be cancelled and points forfeited
> 
> so no more making 10 reservations for one event and then advertising to find your paying guest..
> 
> as I see it this makes large scale commercial renting a thing of the past
> 
> and with the upgrade button there will be no cancel/rebook of popular reservations, except perhaps studios (and 1 bedrooms at the places that dont have studios)



I'm not confident this will put an end to megarenters or those who choose to book a number of units during the same period.  Some of these folks have multiple accounts, and multiple owners for each individual account.  It appears each owner of an account can have a booking in his/her name and these will not be considered multiple bookings.  Those with multiple accounts can simply book units in different accounts.  And if the above don't apply or aren't sufficient for multiple bookings in the same period, megarenters will simply put guest confirmations in the names of friends or relatives, then change them when a real renter is booked.  If the megarenters are platinum owners, they get 15 free guest confirmations per year per 1 million points.  If that's not enough, they'll just modify their rents to cover their expenses.  This is just my opinion of why megarenting will not be eliminated entirely by the changes.  Now, if the new system can differentiate between developer and resale points, maybe there is potential to squelch more of the megarenter activity.  Guess we'll have to wait and see.


----------



## NCQuilter

wed100105 said:


> I've been on hold for 38 minutes. Grrr.....
> 
> An hour and 20 minutes later----
> 
> I'm REALLY unhappy about these changes and I let the vacation counselor know. I asked who I needed to speak to higher up about my displeasure with these changes, and he said that he would be happy to talk to me about it. He had no other number or customer service information.
> 
> I was not able to credit pool 2019 points; I expressed my frustration that there was no notification given that this would be changed.
> 
> I did find out through my ranting that upgrades will be first come first serve. So if you book your unit 13 months out and opt-in for the upgrade, you will be one of the first to receive the upgrade.
> 
> I believe this is a major disadvantage for VIP gold owners. I can't see how any upgrades will be available.





wed100105 said:


> I've been on hold for 38 minutes. Grrr.....
> 
> An hour and 20 minutes later----
> 
> I'm REALLY unhappy about these changes and I let the vacation counselor know. I asked who I needed to speak to higher up about my displeasure with these changes, and he said that he would be happy to talk to me about it. He had no other number or customer service information.
> 
> I was not able to credit pool 2019 points; I expressed my frustration that there was no notification given that this would be changed.
> 
> I did find out through my ranting that upgrades will be first come first serve. So if you book your unit 13 months out and opt-in for the upgrade, you will be one of the first to receive the upgrade.
> 
> I believe this is a major disadvantage for VIP gold owners. I can't see how any upgrades will be available.



I agree the auto-upgrade change is not a good thing for VIP Gold and Platinum owners, nor for those who don't/can't make long-range plans.  Now what will the Sales peeps come up with to sell us all those extra points that have been touted for use in cancel/rebook?


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## happyhopian

VIP Points are NOT restricted to developer purchased. I'm good! Thanks Wyndham!


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## NCQuilter

scootr5 said:


> Maybe, but it seems you can no longer rely on getting the unit with an upgrade at a points discount (so no 3 bedroom for 50% of a studio). It would likely have to be a very high dollar rental to make enough of a profit to make it worthwhile, let alone cover a second $99 gust certificate.





scootr5 said:


> Maybe, but it seems you can no longer rely on getting the unit with an upgrade at a points discount (so no 3 bedroom for 50% of a studio). It would likely have to be a very high dollar rental to make enough of a profit to make it worthwhile, let alone cover a second $99 gust certificate.



Currently, if there are multiple upgrade options you can choose the one you want.  Under the auto-upgrade feature, I suspect the upgrade will be only to the next level.  In other words, if you booked a 1-BR deluxe in hopes of being upgraded to a 1 or 2 BR Presidential, you'll likely end up with an upgrade to a 2-BR deluxe if one is available.  After all, that's the next best unit.  Don't like this feature at all!  If I don't opt for auto-upgrade, it doesn't sound like there's going to be a way for me to search for and claim an upgrade for myself.  And if I've got multiple back-to-back weeks rented, this could turn into a nightmare making me move every week based on what the auto-upgrade gives me.  Ugh!


----------



## tschwa2

I think that Wyndham is hoping there might be gold members who don't have enough points to book multiple units that may now be able to catch auto upgrades that may be cancelled by those who have plans that change.  I think that they are hoping to convince those owners to upgrade to platinum to have a larger window to catch such upgrades without checking for them constantly.  On the Wyndham facebook page for every one unhappy owner it seems like there are at least 2 happy owners who feel that this will level the playing field.  I am sure wyndham is going to spin this as a positive


----------



## NCQuilter

nicemann said:


> Maybe I misread in the past but how many guest certificates does platinum VIP get each year?  I was thinking it was unlimited.



Platinum gets 15 guest confirmations per 1 million eligible points per year.  Eligible points are supposedly "points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its afficiates, Bonus Points and PIC enrollments..." (page 346 of 2014-15 Member's Directory).  So presumably, resale points wouldn't qualify but that's only the case if the new system can distinguish between developer and resale points.


----------



## NCQuilter

Braindead said:


> Any day check in might eliminate some split reservations.
> 
> Being able to make a reservation for more than 7 days might save some transactions also



I wonder how likely reservations for more than 7 days will be to get the auto-upgrades?


----------



## NCQuilter

tschwa2 said:


> I think that Wyndham is hoping there might be gold members who don't have enough points to book multiple units that may now be able to catch auto upgrades that may be cancelled by those who have plans that change.  I think that they are hoping to convince those owners to upgrade to platinum to have a larger window to catch such upgrades without checking for them constantly.  On the Wyndham facebook page for every one unhappy owner it seems like there are at least 2 happy owners who feel that this will level the playing field.  I am sure wyndham is going to spin this as a positive



It sounds like the auto-upgrade will eliminate checking for upgrades constantly.  And your priority for upgrades will be based on booking at the earliest possible window.  Throwing in the different upgrade windows based on VIP level (60 days for platinum, 45 for gold, 30 for silver), this sounds messy.  Will a Platinum owner who booked at 10 months get priority over a Gold member who booked at 13 using ARP or RARP simply because their upgrade window opens 15 days earlier?  The software programming will be tricky for this IMO.  Wyndham hasn't really explained the fine points of how they have set this up to work.


----------



## cayman01

Might just be nitpicking here, but the change to RT's bugs me. We like the idea of staying at multiple places on our trips. I recently booked a multi stay trip out west at four different resorts. Then I had to change it. Instead of the two RT's under the old system I would have used up 8! I understand why they did it, but the big renters will just add it to the price of the rental, and the little guys are screwed. They should at least double the number of free ones we get.


----------



## NCQuilter

Joe33426 said:


> Overall, I think that the changes won't really affect many.   Except for the fact that one RT not being good for an entire day, which kinda stinks.  Otherwise, I think the positives outweigh that negative for most.  Those used to credit pooling, probably won't be happy.  Stripping contracts will end, which is probably a good thing.  That practice always sounded like a ponzi scheme to me.
> 
> I'm really excited about the laxing of the rules regarding check-in day and also the length of the reservation.  It will be interesting to see how that pans out.  I'm thinking that the new policy might create a lot of orphaned days, which is probably an unintended consequence.
> 
> Is this how reservations work in Worldmark?  I ask because I don't own any.  Does Worldmark allow 14 day reservations and any checkin day?



I'm with you on thinking the any-day check-in will create orphan days.  Take a look at calendars on VRBO, TripAdvisor, etc and you will see a lot of this.  But maybe those folks who want short vacations will find more opportunities.  Hopefully the search function will be more robust to allow these windows of opportunity to be readily identified.


----------



## NCQuilter

alexadeparis said:


> Actually, looking at the page someone attached above - that is NOT what is says AT ALL. It says that you must put the guest's name on AT THE TIME OF BOOKING. If you don't have the guest name, you cannot make the reservation IF THAT RESERVATION IS WITHIN 48 HOURS OF CHECK-IN of ANY OTHER RESERVATION on your account! So, for example, If I wanted to go from Wyndham's Las Vegas resort to Sedona, there would have to be a minimum 2 night stay in between the start of the first reservation and the start of the next one in order to avoid the Guest certificate.



This is talking about booking more than one unit with dates that overlap within the same period within 48 hours of check-in.  It doesn't appear to me to be addressing back-to-back single reservations which is what you seem to be referencing in your example of going from Wyndham in Las Vegas to Wyndham in Sedona.  Unless you are booking more than one room with overlapping dates, I don't see how you'd be impacted.


----------



## NCQuilter

dcdowden said:


> I registered for the preview site last September when I got my first email from Wyndham describing it.  I logged on today to check it out, and there was so specific ownership info related to my account.  Just my name and security info.  I didn't even see my account number anywhere.  I called a VC and they said not to worry - it will all be uploaded before the new system goes on-line.
> 
> With the ability to make ARP reservations on-line coming, I also asked how would someone make a request to reserve a specific unit - which is something we have been doing for over ten years as a Plat VIP benefit.  The VC said that was a good question - she said that there would be a way to add specific requests to your reservation, but didn't know how those requests would be handled.
> Doug



My data seems to come and go.  Some days my 5 contracts are listed, some days none or only a portion.  Some days I can display the details of the contracts, other days I cannot.  There's also a problem with Assessment info.  Sometimes I see all Assessment info for 5 contracts, sometimes fewer. And nothing lets me drill down to the line item details of the Assessments for individual contracts despite there being a "+" mark to the right of each. Clicking on a "+" usually opens up detailed info, but this is not working on the new owner site at this time.


----------



## paxsarah

In case anyone wants a version of the supplement to download or print, I've found the PDF link:

http://pages.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/w...dham_plus_membersdirectory_supplement1718.pdf


----------



## Avislo

NCQuilter said:


> My data seems to come and go.  Some days my 5 contracts are listed, some days none or only a portion.  Some days I can display the details of the contracts, other days I cannot.  There's also a problem with Assessment info.  Sometimes I see all Assessment info for 5 contracts, sometimes fewer. And nothing lets me drill down to the line item details of the Assessments for individual contracts despite there being a "+" mark to the right of each. Clicking on a "+" usually opens up detailed info, but this is not working on the new owner site at this time.



The problems relating to the displaying of the contract details under the Ownership tab was my starting point other than I would get varying number of contracts on each click of the button.  Rarely would all of them show.  The problem was with the data that was entered in the existing system.  After a prolonged period of time, working with Title, I got enough of the data corrected that it consistently shows either zero contracts or the correct number.  Many clicks on the Ownership tab are frequently needed to get the contracts to show.


----------



## ecwinch

NCQuilter said:


> It sounds like the auto-upgrade will eliminate checking for upgrades constantly.  And your priority for upgrades will be based on booking at the earliest possible window.  Throwing in the different upgrade windows based on VIP level (60 days for platinum, 45 for gold, 30 for silver), this sounds messy.  Will a Platinum owner who booked at 10 months get priority over a Gold member who booked at 13 using ARP or RARP simply because their upgrade window opens 15 days earlier?  The software programming will be tricky for this IMO.  Wyndham hasn't really explained the fine points of how they have set this up to work.



The programming will not be that tricky....and I would expect that Platinums would start searching for upgrades at the 60 day window, Gold at 45, etc. The devil is in the details... is it a nightly cycle or does any cancellation automatically try to match to a pending upgrade list ranked by reservation date and/or VIP status?


----------



## ronparise

NCQuilter said:


> I'm not confident this will put an end to megarenters or those who choose to book a number of units during the same period.  Some of these folks have multiple accounts, and multiple owners for each individual account.  It appears each owner of an account can have a booking in his/her name and these will not be considered multiple bookings.  Those with multiple accounts can simply book units in different accounts.  And if the above don't apply or aren't sufficient for multiple bookings in the same period, megarenters will simply put guest confirmations in the names of friends or relatives, then change them when a real renter is booked.  If the megarenters are platinum owners, they get 15 free guest confirmations per year per 1 million points.  If that's not enough, they'll just modify their rents to cover their expenses.  This is just my opinion of why megarenting will not be eliminated entirely by the changes.  Now, if the new system can differentiate between developer and resale points, maybe there is potential to squelch more of the megarenter activity.  Guess we'll have to wait and see.




what you say regarding multiple accounts is true;  the catch , however is that you need multiple Platinum accounts,  and that aint easy... How many folks have multiple platinum accounts?  Maybe the goal here isnt to end mega renting today, but rather make it difficult for existingrenters, draw a line and make it impossible to become a mega renter going forward.  Given that you need multiple Platinum accounts to make it work, How many new guys are likely to buy there way into multiple platinum accounts if you figure it will cost something in the range of $100000 to put one together

I know that the points managers that manage lots of small accounts are likely to be able to continue what they do.  the key word here is "small".  Based on conversations Ive had with wyndham executives, they dont like the owners that have put together large scale commercial operations. Owners that do a few rentals to offset their fees are not their target because they arent, in wyndhams eyes "commercial"  What the clients of the points managers have done is to hire a broker to do their rentals for them. They are still small owners, and they are only trying to offset their fees


----------



## bnoble

happyhopian said:


> VIP Points are NOT restricted to developer purchased.


...so far.



NCQuilter said:


> Will a Platinum owner who booked at 10 months get priority over a Gold member who booked at 13 using ARP or RARP simply because their upgrade window opens 15 days earlier? The software programming will be tricky for this IMO.


I would assume so, yes. And I would expect any of my students who have passed EECS 280 to be able to write the code that does that properly. In fact, they do something very much like this as a small part of one of their projects.

Granted, Wyndham's IT systems don't give one a lot of hope, but stranger things have happened.


----------



## Sandi Bo

NCQuilter said:


> Platinum gets 15 guest confirmations per 1 million eligible points per year.  Eligible points are supposedly "points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its afficiates, Bonus Points and PIC enrollments..." (page 346 of 2014-15 Member's Directory).  So presumably, resale points wouldn't qualify but that's only the case if the new system can distinguish between developer and resale points.



This is how confirmations work today and sounds like they will continue to work.  For guest confirmations only developer points are used to determine GC eligibility (one of the few things today that is able to differentiate between the developer and resale).   Unless there is a glitch or something (haha, no way), I know for me only my developer points are considered for my GC's.


----------



## ronparise

NCQuilter said:


> I agree the auto-upgrade change is not a good thing for VIP Gold and Platinum owners, nor for those who don't/can't make long-range plans.  Now what will the Sales peeps come up with to sell us all those extra points that have been touted for use in cancel/rebook?



Upgrade sales are the most important thing to wyndham, New sales are important only because they are tomorrows upgrade. Perhaps the salesmen will focus on the quality of the accommodations and let the product sell itself...  Maybe they will focus on the legacy resorts where a two bedroom is cheap at full price and its still possible to get an upgrade in the 60 day window

The folks that buy to have access to Hawaii, New York San Francisco etc, will be sold on the difference between the price and size of local hotel competition and the wyndham accommodation, discounts and upgrades will be presented as a possible thing, but not the big deal and they will be sold points deeded at those resorts (low mf)

Worldmark dosent have discounts or upgrades and yet Wyndham is still able to sell it using a package of benefits they call TravelShare... Perhaps they can do the same with Club Wyndham, focus on the other benefits of VIP, like Plus Partners


----------



## CO skier

NCQuilter said:


> It sounds like the auto-upgrade will eliminate checking for upgrades constantly.  And your priority for upgrades will be based on booking at the earliest possible window.  Throwing in the different upgrade windows based on VIP level (60 days for platinum, 45 for gold, 30 for silver), this sounds messy.  Will a Platinum owner who booked at 10 months get priority over a Gold member who booked at 13 using ARP or RARP simply because their upgrade window opens 15 days earlier?


Another approach would be to award the automatic upgrade to the highest credit reservations next down in line, so all two bedroom units, for example, would have a chance at an upgrade, regardless of reservation date, before any one bedroom units can upgrade.  That would be fair to the Gold or Silver owners who have a two bedroom but a later upgrade window.


----------



## ronparise

cayman01 said:


> Might just be nitpicking here, but the change to RT's bugs me. We like the idea of staying at multiple places on our trips. I recently booked a multi stay trip out west at four different resorts. Then I had to change it. Instead of the two RT's under the old system I would have used up 8! I understand why they did it, but the big renters will just add it to the price of the rental, and the little guys are screwed. They should at least double the number of free ones we get.


 The big renters dont worry about RT's or housekeeping because they are working in Platinum accounts


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> Worldmark dosent have discounts or upgrades and yet Wyndham is still able to sell it using a package of benefits they call TravelShare... Perhaps they can do the same with Club Wyndham, focus on the other benefits of VIP, like Plus Partners


I am sure sales will focus on the "possibility" of upgrades, not the "probability" of upgrades, and present the possibility of upgrading from a one bedroom to a four bedroom and make it sound as though it happens all the time with no problems.

Salesperson:  "Reserve four one-bedroom units.  When the upgrade to the four-bedroom happens, cancel the one-bedroom unit.  Your whole family can vacation together for the price of a one-bedroom."


----------



## Braindead

Couple of things really hurt the silver and small owners.

The 14 day reservation. Owners with enough points book the week before and the week they want. If you don't have enough points for the 14 days you could be locked out of the highest demand times you want. This actually helps the mega renter to focus on the highest demand times especially if they have ARP at that particular resort. 

GCs should be like points you cancel you get back. Or change names it's still only one used.

They have to control size of ownership in a membership. Either by the 10 contract limit or put a hard cap on GCs period you can't get anymore. 30 or 45 remember you get back what you don't use.

That will upset hardly anyone but the mega-renter.

I think more VIPs have added resale points to their membership than most realize. Because of that Wyndham will not cut off VIP benefits to resale. I agree with Ron that would upset way to many owners and it probably won't happen


----------



## Sandy VDH

paxsarah said:


> In case anyone wants a version of the supplement to download or print, I've found the PDF link:
> 
> http://pages.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/w...dham_plus_membersdirectory_supplement1718.pdf



Thanks, because they did a crap job on that nxtbook version.  The feature that normally lets you drag the page around, so it can be enlarged and readable, but still easy to navigate from page to page, was not enabled.  It was horrible to navigate.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Braindead said:


> Couple of things really hurt the silver and small owners.
> 
> The 14 day reservation. Owners with enough points book the week before and the week they want. If you don't have enough points for the 14 days you could be locked out of the highest demand times you want. This actually helps the mega renter to focus on the highest demand times especially if they have ARP at that particular resort.



Marriott multiple week owners have been doing this for ages, the more weeks you have the more weeks you can string together to make a booking that spans multiple weeks to give you a head start over everyone else.

So now with Wyndham and ARP or RARP if you have enough points you could take a longer ressie, However Wyndham does not have a change feature, just a cancel and rebook so if you don't want all the extra days you will still have to cancel it and hope to be able to book it back.

Wyndham booking window is based on checkin date. 

HGVC has solved this as booking window is based on checkout date, giving everyone a level field.  Another plus for HGVC is they have CHANGABLE reservations, that you pay once for the transaction and you can change it at no charge.  Wish Wyndham has that in cases where you don't want to lose a high demand stay, but you need to drop of add a day.


----------



## Braindead

Correct. They could cancel rebook still under ARP or standard. Probably be successful almost 100 percent. No waitlist


----------



## wed100105

I still think that these changes really screw over Gold VIP members.  And no, Wyndham, I'mm not going to buy enough points to go platinum. 

Time will tell....


----------



## raygo123

NCQuilter said:


> It sounds like the auto-upgrade will eliminate checking for upgrades constantly.  And your priority for upgrades will be based on booking at the earliest possible window.  Throwing in the different upgrade windows based on VIP level (60 days for platinum, 45 for gold, 30 for silver), this sounds messy.  Will a Platinum owner who booked at 10 months get priority over a Gold member who booked at 13 using ARP or RARP simply because their upgrade window opens 15 days earlier?  The software programming will be tricky for this IMO.  Wyndham hasn't really explained the fine points of how they have set this up to work.


Actually I can see where this makes sense, at least in Wyndham's eyes.  You paid more so you get first crack at an upgrade being platinum, gold your next, etc.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


----------



## ecwinch

raygo123 said:


> Actually I can see where this makes sense, at least in Wyndham's eyes.  You paid more so you get first crack at an upgrade being platinum, gold your next, etc.
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk



That's how I saw it. They know they increased the upsell potential for all the silver and golds with the auto-upgrade..... "not getting your upgrades? That's because you are not Platinum....let me help you"


----------



## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> Another approach would be to award the automatic upgrade to the highest credit reservations next down in line, so all two bedroom units, for example, would have a chance at an upgrade, regardless of reservation date, before any one bedroom units can upgrade.  That would be fair to the Gold or Silver owners who have a two bedroom but a later upgrade window.



I think auto-upgrades will be limited to the next unit up regardless, so a 1BR won't upgrade to a 3BR. If there was no 2BR for that 1BR to upgrade into, it just won't upgrade (until there is one).


----------



## Bigrob

ecwinch said:


> The programming will not be that tricky....and I would expect that Platinums would start searching for upgrades at the 60 day window, Gold at 45, etc. The devil is in the details... is it a nightly cycle or does any cancellation automatically try to match to a pending upgrade list ranked by reservation date and/or VIP status?



Interesting and important question. Now that the website will be running 24X7, my guess is it will match to the next unit eligible for upgrade immediately. The logic to determine which unit that is will already have been performed and stored in a data table so the transaction will be virtually instantaneous. Just speculation on my part.

A counterpoint to this thought is that while the website will now be 24X7, there will still be batch jobs that run (for example, to download the reservation data, including guest confirmations, to the local resort systems). My guess is that all of those local resort systems have not been modified to accept real time feeds of reservation data and that some batch jobs will still exist and most likely run at the times they are currently scheduled for. So it's possible that the upgrades will run as a batch job as well, along with other "enhanced" features such as the auto-cancellation of multiple reservations in the same timeframe, auto-cancellation of in excess of 10 units at a resort, etc.


----------



## Bigrob

NCQuilter said:


> It sounds like the auto-upgrade will eliminate checking for upgrades constantly.  And your priority for upgrades will be based on booking at the earliest possible window.  Throwing in the different upgrade windows based on VIP level (60 days for platinum, 45 for gold, 30 for silver), this sounds messy.  Will a Platinum owner who booked at 10 months get priority over a Gold member who booked at 13 using ARP or RARP simply because their upgrade window opens 15 days earlier?  The software programming will be tricky for this IMO.  Wyndham hasn't really explained the fine points of how they have set this up to work.



Yes, they will, because they will be looking at 60 days rather than 45 days.

And now you have the sales hook, as Silver and Gold Owners can have their "upgrade ability restored" by buying more points to get to platinum to get to the front of that line.


----------



## Bigrob

ronparise said:


> Upgrade sales are the most important thing to wyndham, New sales are important only because they are tomorrows upgrade. Perhaps the salesmen will focus on the quality of the accommodations and let the product sell itself...  Maybe they will focus on the legacy resorts where a two bedroom is cheap at full price and its still possible to get an upgrade in the 60 day window
> 
> The folks that buy to have access to Hawaii, New York San Francisco etc, will be sold on the difference between the price and size of local hotel competition and the wyndham accommodation, discounts and upgrades will be presented as a possible thing, but not the big deal and they will be sold points deeded at those resorts (low mf)
> 
> Worldmark dosent have discounts or upgrades and yet Wyndham is still able to sell it using a package of benefits they call TravelShare... Perhaps they can do the same with Club Wyndham, focus on the other benefits of VIP, like Plus Partners



Upgrade sales just got easier selling to silver and gold members. "Get to the front of the upgrade line." And if you're going for platinum, why not go for PR to increase your options? Here are the bullet points sales can use to upgrade owners:

1. You have so many more options now. If we get you to platinum, you can wait until the last day of the year to figure out what to do with your remaining points. 

2. If we get you to platinum you'll be first in line for that upgrade you want.

3. Availability at all resorts will be SO much better now that we've booted the commercial renters! Now is the time to get the additional points you need for the vacations you've always wanted to take, but never found availability for before. 

4. You don't have to camp out at your computer to try to get your upgrade! Let us do the work for you automagically!

5. You have so much more booking flexibility now! Now you can book short stays and midweek to midweek... but of course you'll want to be VIP so you aren't incurring RT and HK fees.

6. We need to get you to VIP! Now you have the option to a) move your points to another use year, and still b) have the option to use those points (in the latter use year) for everything you would in their current use year - including ARP reservations, paying maintenance fees, Wyndham Plus Partners, etc. etc. 

7. Now you can book your ARP reservations online! And the sooner you do so, the more likely you'll get an upgrade (if you're platinum VIP).

The list can go on, but there will be many things to sell other than the "get a 3BR Pres for half the 1BR points" spiel. Whether the value is there or not is not going to be the concern for sales.


----------



## djohn75087

You know, I would have no problem with getting rid of the credit pool if they would just let me make the deposit at the end of the year. If I could deposit it the end of year I wouldn't end up wasting points or depositing points and wishing I had them back in November. All I need is a little flexibility. I can understand why they don't want me using my 2020 points in 2018 but I think that if I'm willing to pay the fee I should be able to use my 2018 points in 2018 or 2019.


----------



## tschwa2

djohn75087 said:


> You know, I would have no problem with getting rid of the credit pool if they would just let me make the deposit at the end of the year. If I could deposit it the end of year I wouldn't end up wasting points or depositing points and wishing I had them back in November. All I need is a little flexibility. I can understand why they don't want me using my 2020 points in 2018 but I think that if I'm willing to pay the fee I should be able to use my 2018 points in 2018 or 2019.


All you have to do is upgrade to Platinum and you can-  see another selling point.


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## IT Guy

Here is what I don't understand.  How is a person ever going to get a VIP discount on any unit larger than a 1 bedroom.  If we try to cancel and rebook a larger unit, that unit is not going to come back into the system because it will go to someone who is waiting for an upgrade.  If we wait until the discount window to make a booking, there will not be any large units left.  I don't think my VIP discount is going to work at all.

Best wishes, DB


----------



## djohn75087

tschwa2 said:


> All you have to do is upgrade to Platinum and you can-  see another selling point.


Yep I considered that. I'm going to try out the new system, but if I end up wasting lots of points each year or if I can't the take vacations I want later in the year I'll probably give it back to Wyndham and go over to Worldmark. Who knows, maybe the express window will make it all workout.


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## ecwinch

It will likely require the same strategy as before - just more risk, paying full price for the smaller unit, and/or maybe burning a guest cert.

Book the smaller unit at the 13th month mark. Book larger unit at 10 months mark and hold it in another name. Cancel the larger unit at the 60 day mark, and hope you get the upgrade. Or avoid booking the larger and just hope you catch someone playing the game.

The cancel to get the discount will likely move you down the priority list, so it will a bit more of an either/or game.

Just speculating, we won't know until we see it.


----------



## nicemann

Bigrob said:


> Upgrade sales just got easier selling to silver and gold members. "Get to the front of the upgrade line." And if you're going for platinum, why not go for PR to increase your options? Here are the bullet points sales can use to upgrade owners:
> 
> 1. You have so many more options now. If we get you to platinum, you can wait until the last day of the year to figure out what to do with your remaining points.
> 
> 2. If we get you to platinum you'll be first in line for that upgrade you want.
> 
> 3. Availability at all resorts will be SO much better now that we've booted the commercial renters! Now is the time to get the additional points you need for the vacations you've always wanted to take, but never found availability for before.
> 
> 4. You don't have to camp out at your computer to try to get your upgrade! Let us do the work for you automagically!
> 
> 5. You have so much more booking flexibility now! Now you can book short stays and midweek to midweek... but of course you'll want to be VIP so you aren't incurring RT and HK fees.
> 
> 6. We need to get you to VIP! Now you have the option to a) move your points to another use year, and still b) have the option to use those points (in the latter use year) for everything you would in their current use year - including ARP reservations, paying maintenance fees, Wyndham Plus Partners, etc. etc.
> 
> 7. Now you can book your ARP reservations online! And the sooner you do so, the more likely you'll get an upgrade (if you're platinum VIP).
> 
> The list can go on, but there will be many things to sell other than the "get a 3BR Pres for half the 1BR points" spiel. Whether the value is there or not is not going to be the concern for sales.



You know some sales person is memorizing these lines right now.  I agree I believe all of these are great lines they will use to sucker more people to upgrade.  Heck I am sure the supervisors started to train the sales staff on them yesterday.

I know it has been mentioned here but I too am wondering if when the new website goes active if it will know the difference between resell points added to VIP memberships.  They would not have included that in the supplement because I'm sure they would not want people to know it has for this long.  Programming can't be too hard to make that change.


----------



## raygo123

What I would like to know is if I bring forward points from the previous year, will they be used first, or after the regular use year points?  If regular points first, I will have left over points I cannot bring forward again.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


----------



## tschwa2

raygo123 said:


> What I would like to know is if I bring forward points from the previous year, will they be used first, or after the regular use year points?  If regular points first, I will have left over points I cannot bring forward again.
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


You would think they would be used first.  You would have to make sure you don't cancel those reservations later in the year because if you do you would end up with points that can't be brought forward and may or may not be eligible for RCI.


----------



## ronparise

Someone on Facebook posted this 

_* "I just called my Wyndham rep and she says when VIP members do a booking there will be a button called "up/down". When clicked this button will automatically give VIP members their discount and upgrade (if possible) at their designated discount/upgrade window."*_

If this is true, not only will there be automatic upgrades if available, there will also be automatic discounts.  So if I have a one bedroom another one bedroom is available, if Im first in line, Ill get the discount automatically, and then my one bedroom will be available, so the next one bedroom reservation gets their discount...and so on

Now if we carry this to its logical conclusion that means, if I make two one bedroom reservations and I cancel one, that will set into motion a chain reaction so that every one bedroom reservation gets remade at a discount

or if one 2 bedroom gets upgraded into a three, and that makes the two bedroom available, then the chain reaction happens and every two bedroom gets remade at the discount



or am I missing something

the question of course is Are automatic discounts part of the automatic upgrade feature... who knows??


----------



## comicbookman

bnoble said:


> ...so far.
> 
> 
> I would assume so, yes. And I would expect any of my students who have passed EECS 280 to be able to write the code that does that properly. In fact, they do something very much like this as a small part of one of their projects.
> 
> Granted, Wyndham's IT systems don't give one a lot of hope, but stranger things have happened.




The system is already capable of distinguishing between platinum and gold, so no new code is needed.  I can check for updates at 60 days.  My friend with a gold cannot check until 45 days out.  The auto upgrade does not need new code to see this.


----------



## comicbookman

ronparise said:


> Someone on Facebook posted this
> 
> _* "I just called my Wyndham rep and she says when VIP members do a booking there will be a button called "up/down". When clicked this button will automatically give VIP members their discount and upgrade (if possible) at their designated discount/upgrade window."*_
> 
> If this is true, not only will there be automatic upgrades if available, there will also be automatic discounts.  So if I have a one bedroom another one bedroom is available, if Im first in line, Ill get the discount automatically, and then my one bedroom will be available, so the next one bedroom reservation gets their discount...and so on
> 
> Now if we carry this to its logical conclusion that means, if I make two one bedroom reservations and I cancel one, that will set into motion a chain reaction so that every one bedroom reservation gets remade at a discount
> 
> or if one 2 bedroom gets upgraded into a three, and that makes the two bedroom available, then the chain reaction happens and every two bedroom gets remade at the discount
> 
> 
> 
> or am I missing something
> 
> the question of course is Are automatic discounts part of the automatic upgrade feature... who knows??



I seriously doubt the discount will be automatic.  There is no advantage to Wyndham, and it is contrary to the way the discount helps Wyndham.  IE. the discount is supposed to be to move rooms remaining at the 60 or 45 day windows.  As Ron points out, if the discount is automatic then it creates a chain reaction.  This part sounds like sales talk to me.


----------



## tschwa2

My guess is either the guide misspoke or the poster misheard/misunderstood the guide.  There is nothing in the supplement suggesting automatic discounts during the window.


----------



## Sandy VDH

I'm not buying that either.  I could buy auto upgrade if available, when batch job is run, making other smaller units available if and when larger unit are automatically upgraded.   The is OK, Wyndham is giving Upgrades as promised at upgrade windows. 

But discounts.  This was never promised as automatic.  I can't imagine Wynd doing this, so this is I will believe it when I see it. right, statement.


----------



## ilya

When did everyone get the email?. Is there a reason I am not getting it?.  I have looked in junk mail too, no email.


----------



## scootr5

ilya said:


> When did everyone get the email?. Is there a reason I am not getting it?.  I have looked in junk mail too, no email.



8:29 am central time 4/20/2017.


----------



## ronparise

tschwa2 said:


> My guess is either the guide misspoke or the poster misheard/misunderstood the guide.  There is nothing in the supplement suggesting automatic discounts during the window.



I think so too but anther owner tipped me off to what was coming and it came


If it's just upgrades wouldn't that set off a limited chain reaction.  I cancel a 3 bedroom, and someones 2 bedroom is upgraded into the 3 and someone else's 1 bedroom into the two and someone's studio into the one, leaving the studio available for someone to reserve at the discount


----------



## Bigrob

nicemann said:


> You know some sales person is memorizing these lines right now.  I agree I believe all of these are great lines they will use to sucker more people to upgrade.  Heck I am sure the supervisors started to train the sales staff on them yesterday.
> 
> I know it has been mentioned here but I too am wondering if when the new website goes active if it will know the difference between resell points added to VIP memberships.  They would not have included that in the supplement because I'm sure they would not want people to know it has for this long.  Programming can't be too hard to make that change.



I don't believe so. The language in the supplement that makes me think that:

"As a Club Wyndham Plus Member, you receive specific benefits that are associated with your contract and membership type. Your points allow you to use your benefits, regardless of which contract they came from, and with our upcoming enhancements you will no longer have to worry about different point types and their eligibility."

And I also don't think it matters much, because they have addressed these issues with the other changes: 1. the ability to book units for discounts of 80% or more has been eliminated, as only a one level increase will be possible; and only when available, so likely many upgrades will be for non-discounted reservations. 2. Points rolling forward indefinitely has been eliminated, so the ability to "cycle" points through multiple iterations of cancel/rebook/upgrade has also largely been eliminated. In the old pattern, you could pull up to 2019 points into the credit pool and start booking reservations at the 10-month window with them. You might have 5 or more cycles -
 each at the 10-month mark - to capture your 4BR Presidential units at a 1BR price. Now you may get one chance at it, then have the remaining points to use by year end.

Big picture view: the average point cost for units has gone up significantly, to more closely match the "rack rate" - and therefore the cost of the VIP program has gone down tremendously.  Availability for the non-VIP owners has (likely) increased - the opportunity for the less savvy platinum VIP owner to get upgrades has increased - and a small select group of owners who have worked the system as it was are the big losers. The ability to make sure the Fairshare Trust is managed appropriately (remains in balance and does not go "out of Trust") has been greatly enhanced with the elimination of the credit pool feature. And I believe that is exactly the intent of the changes.


----------



## Bigrob

ronparise said:


> Someone on Facebook posted this
> 
> _* "I just called my Wyndham rep and she says when VIP members do a booking there will be a button called "up/down". When clicked this button will automatically give VIP members their discount and upgrade (if possible) at their designated discount/upgrade window."*_
> 
> If this is true, not only will there be automatic upgrades if available, there will also be automatic discounts.  So if I have a one bedroom another one bedroom is available, if Im first in line, Ill get the discount automatically, and then my one bedroom will be available, so the next one bedroom reservation gets their discount...and so on
> 
> Now if we carry this to its logical conclusion that means, if I make two one bedroom reservations and I cancel one, that will set into motion a chain reaction so that every one bedroom reservation gets remade at a discount
> 
> or if one 2 bedroom gets upgraded into a three, and that makes the two bedroom available, then the chain reaction happens and every two bedroom gets remade at the discount
> 
> 
> 
> or am I missing something
> 
> the question of course is Are automatic discounts part of the automatic upgrade feature... who knows??



I believe what was meant is that the "instant upgrade" feature will still be available during the discount window (if units are available). That would make the statement accurate... if you book inside the discount window, you can get the discount and (if available) the upgrade, just as you do today. Whether or not that's likely is another question.

What I do not believe will happen is that there will be a button outside of the discount window that allows you to "rebook" automatically for the discount when the window opens.


----------



## topcop400

I often credit pool the points from my smaller contract.   Typically, I use about half of them in one year and the other half the next year.  I won’t be able to do that now.  Unless, they will allow me to “deposit” half of them to one future UY and the other half to the next future UY.   In that case, I’m sure I’d get to pay the deposit fee twice.


With regard to the automatic upgrades, you wouldn’t be able to press that magic button if you had a one-bedroom oceanfront unit, and you wanted a two-bedroom oceanfront unit.


----------



## Bigrob

topcop400 said:


> I often credit pool the points from my smaller contract.   Typically, I use about half of them in one year and the other half the next year.  I won’t be able to do that now.  Unless, they will allow me to “deposit” half of them to one future UY and the other half to the next future UY.   In that case, I’m sure I’d get to pay the deposit fee twice.
> 
> 
> With regard to the automatic upgrades, you wouldn’t be able to press that magic button if you had a one-bedroom oceanfront unit, and you wanted a two-bedroom oceanfront unit.



We don't know yet whether you will be able to or not. When I asked I was told you could request a unit with upgraded view. I am not sure what options if any will be offered when selecting the upgrade button. Obviously if you have a 2br pres you may not want an "upgrade" into a 3br deluxe for example.


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## Sandi Bo

I haven't seen anything of value on the preview site.  I am less than impressed with what functionality I have seen there. Certainly no sneak previews of any of the important stuff that's been discussed here.  Like booking a room?  Requesting an upgrade?  ARP? 

I can't imagine Wyndham introducing these new rules and have them working decently. I predict a lot of issues with the upgrading stuff.  I can see unhappy people if they get part of a reservation upgraded, or lose a nice ocean front room for a parking lot view (assuming people are still able to request particular rooms with the new system).


----------



## Avislo

Sandi Bo said:


> I haven't seen anything of value on the preview site.  I am less than impressed with what functionality I have seen there. Certainly no sneak previews of any of the important stuff that's been discussed here.  Like booking a room?  Requesting an upgrade?  ARP?
> 
> I can't imagine Wyndham introducing these new rules and have them working decently. I predict a lot of issues with the upgrading stuff.  I can see unhappy people if they get part of a reservation upgraded, or lose a nice ocean front room for a parking lot view (assuming people are still able to request particular rooms with the new system).



Owner 101, Community, Knowledge Base, Learning Center, Video Library, Glossary, and FAQs sections are all present and accounted for.

Owner 101 has subgroups under "Whats Happening" of News Publications, Directories (CWP Member Directory and CWP Supplement 2017), Club Wyndham Faces and Places, and CW Insider.

There is no chat feature, a place for member to member communication, or any question and answer section that is interactive.

As part the roll-out, for the subgroups that are currently showing, I would guess that these would be updated at that time or in the months to follow.


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## Sandi Bo

Avislo said:


> Owner 101, Community, Knowledge Base, Learning Center, Video Library, Glossary, and FAQs sections are all present and accounted for.
> 
> Owner 101 has subgroups under "Whats Happening" of News Publications, Directories (CWP Member Directory and CWP Supplement 2017), Club Wyndham Faces and Places, and CW Insider.
> 
> There is no chat feature, a place for member to member communication, or any question and answer section that is interactive.
> 
> As part the roll-out, for the subgroups that are currently showing, I would guess that these would be updated at that time or in the months to follow.



Yup, all read only type stuff.  Nothing substantial, IMO.


----------



## whitewater

Sandi Bo said:


> I haven't seen anything of value on the preview site.  I am less than impressed with what functionality I have seen there. Certainly no sneak previews of any of the important stuff that's been discussed here.  Like booking a room?  Requesting an upgrade?  ARP?
> 
> I can't imagine Wyndham introducing these new rules and have them working decently. I predict a lot of issues with the upgrading stuff.  I can see unhappy people if they get part of a reservation upgraded, or lose a nice ocean front room for a parking lot view (assuming people are still able to request particular rooms with the new system).



agreed.  Website is very slow, cumbersome, and many features only work 1/2 of the time.  Thinking they have this thing hosted on a old 90's 386mhz desk top via AOL online dialup. Hope once the finalize and rollout it become much more stable & significantly faster.  Its design is very bloated.

All the program changes outlined are fine with me and feel like I get a few more features.  The only one that sucks, though I never used, was credit pooling of points.  I can see the value in putting points away for future years.  I'm taking a wait and see approach for both website & changes.

Not much else I/we can do...


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## happyhopian

Having reviewed the rules and talked with OC. I do not think the impact is that great. The fact that they did not implement a waitlist for bookings is HUGE. Only implementing a wait list for 'upgrades' will have a negative impact on EVERYONE including VIP owners who paid a lot of money for free upgrades and of course if you are gold or silver you are definitely screwed because the platinum owner who forgets to upgrade manually at 60 days, will now have the computer do it for him/her for free. If I was VIP and less than platinum or I didn't have lots of points I would be pissed. They have taken the 'opportunity' out of the system for those who are VIP to get ROI for their $$$$.

I have always booked two units on expensive vacations a 1br and a 3br ( I have three family owners on my account). I will do the same while selecting automatic upgrade on the 1br. If the 1br upgrades, I cancel the 3. The only thing wyndham has eliminated is the opportunity to book the 1br at 1/2 and then upgrade. I think upgrades will work fine and if not I will always have insurance AND when I cancel my 3, some lucky owner is also going to get an upgrade


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## happyhopian

I've spent some time on the NEW website this morning and WOW is it buggy. Clicking plus to expand and review the contracts, then clicking minus to collapse them makes them disappear. Points not correct. Titles and details not right on all, but right on some others. If they are launching this in 30 days I sure hope they have another version in the sandbox they are developing because this is going to light up the telephones when it goes live.


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## raygo123

I can't figure out why upgrades are of so much interest.  I don't need them.  IM not going to book a one bedroom when I really need a two bdrm.  The is neither a positive or negative in itself.  The thing it did do is cost me the opportunity to obtain more points.  Unless family is going with us, we always get a one bdrm.  If family is going with us am I going to get a 1 bedroom and expect to get a two bdrm? No.  Before, would I have booked two, two bdrms and attempted to cancel and rebook.  This new change is, as far as a m concerned is worthless.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## tschwa2

happyhopian said:


> Having reviewed the rules and talked with OC. I do not think the impact is that great. The fact that they did not implement a waitlist for bookings is HUGE. Only implementing a wait list for 'upgrades' will have a negative impact on EVERYONE including VIP owners who paid a lot of money for free upgrades and of course if you are gold or silver you are definitely screwed because the platinum owner who forgets to upgrade manually at 60 days, will now have the computer do it for him/her for free. If I was VIP and less than platinum or I didn't have lots of points I would be pissed. They have taken the 'opportunity' out of the system for those who are VIP to get ROI for their $$$$.
> 
> I have always booked two units on expensive vacations a 1br and a 3br ( I have three family owners on my account). I will do the same while selecting automatic upgrade on the 1br. If the 1br upgrades, I cancel the 3. The only thing wyndham has eliminated is the opportunity to book the 1br at 1/2 and then upgrade. I think upgrades will work fine and if not I will always have insurance AND when I cancel my 3, some lucky owner is also going to get an upgrade


It also depends on whether you really need the 3 br.  While a 1 br booked early may still have an ok chance at an auto upgrade, that auto upgrade is just as likely to be a 2br.  If your insurance is booking another 3 br that you do not cancel than wyndham will still get a 3 br which was paid for with the full points.  You will also have to be more careful if you are doing these cancellations toward the end of the year.  If you are platinum you will still have the oppertunity to move the points but if it were a reservation with points that have already been moved they will expire.


----------



## raygo123

tschwa2 said:


> It also depends on whether you really need the 3 br.  While a 1 br booked early may still have an ok chance at an auto upgrade, that auto upgrade is just as likely to be a 2br.  If your insurance is booking another 3 br that you do not cancel than wyndham will still get a 3 br which was paid for with the full points.  You will also have to be more careful if you are doing these cancellations toward the end of the year.  If you are platinum you will still have the oppertunity to move the points but if it were a reservation with points that have already been moved they will expire.


That goes to my previous post, which points will Wyndham use first?  Points moved forward, or regular use year points?

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## tschwa2

raygo123 said:


> That goes to my previous post, which points will Wyndham use first?  Points moved forward, or regular use year points?
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


The rumor was the new system would let you choose which points.  I seems like that may not be the case and the system only knows to to pick the points expiring first which means it will not be able to distinquish ARP points you wanted to keep and pooled or moved points that you might want to use first.


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## dagger1

raygo123 said:


> I can't figure out why upgrades are of so much interest.  I don't need them.  IM not going to book a one bedroom when I really need a two bdrm.  The is neither a positive or negative in itself.  The thing it did do is cost me the opportunity to obtain more points.  Unless family is going with us, we always get a one bdrm.  If family is going with us am I going to get a 1 bedroom and expect to get a two bdrm? No.  Before, would I have booked two, two bdrms and attempted to cancel and rebook.  This new change is, as far as a m concerned is worthless.
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


I agree.  If my wife and I are going somewhere, we book a 1 BR.  Getting a 2 or 3 BR is if no value to us.  When traveling with family (we have 2 x 3BR's booked at Bonnet Creek in December), we book 3 BR's...  We would never  book 2 x 1 or 2 BR's hoping for an upgrade. We go on 8-10 trips a year, so even if Platinum VIP we wouldn't  have enough points to double and triple book rooms to play the system.  But I do understand the benefit of upgrading from a 1 BR to a 2-3 BR and getting a points discount.  Getting points back would be great, just not worth $100-$200K, to me at least...


----------



## tschwa2

...but the problem is those that spent the $100,000+ feel that they are entitled to getting a 3 br for half the points of a 1 br.


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## paxsarah

tschwa2 said:


> ...but the problem is those that spent the $100,000+ feel that they are entitled to getting a 3 br for half the points of a 1 br.



Yep. If I were a VIP owner who had been working the system within the existing rules (and likely sold on that system by the salespeople in the first place), I'd be pretty POed. As it stands, I expect I can divest if I need to and get back what I put into it.


----------



## HtownRose

The change to the credit pool feature will be a big hassle for me.  I have credit pooled my odd year points in December of every even year & then had plenty of time to decide how & when I'll use my points.  I just sent a complaint via the online message option on the old website.

Are they still accepting contracts back?  Might be time for me to do that once I've taken my last vacation in January 2018.  Luckily I booked it & 2 2017 vacations all on 1 day last month.


----------



## Avislo

Owners Care informed me this morning that if a reservation is made under the new system and the guest pass is added at the same time, it will cost 1 reservation and one guest certificate.  When I asked about if two reservations were made the same day, she hung up on me.

Yesterday, a owner made a reservation on my account for a split reservation.  Three e-mails came in for the same reservations.  One each correctly under the owner's name.  One came in saying the owner was a guest.

Called Reservations, the indicated that they did not actually charge the guest certificate.

UPDATE:  Called Owners Care back, got a different rep.  He indicated that if 2 reservations and a maintenance fee transaction were made on the same day, than each would get charged a Reservation Transaction.


----------



## ecwinch

At Patriot's Place. As you might imagine the sales sharks are already priming the upgrade pump... 

Him: "Exciting new changes just announced, great time to upgrade your acct!!"
Me: "You mean destroying the cancel-rebook benefit you sold me on three years ago?"


----------



## Avislo

ecwinch said:


> At Patriot's Place. As you might imagine the sales sharks are already priming the upgrade pump...
> 
> Him: "Exciting new changes just announced, great time to upgrade your acct!!"
> Me: "You mean destroying the cancel-rebook benefit you sold me on three years ago?"



FYI, Patriot's Place does not have a sales office at this point, they refer you to a different Wyndham Resort sales office.


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## ecwinch

tschwa2 said:


> ...but the problem is those that spent the $100,000+ feel that they are entitled to getting a 3 br for half the points of a 1 br.



Some might feel they are "entitled" to that benefit if that is what they were sold.

I bought with full understanding that the rules were subject to change at anytime, fully knowing that no loophole lasts forever. But I have to imagine that there are some who feel more strongly about it right now, and I have to imagine that there is more than one lawyer that is racking up some billable hrs right now, as futile as that is.


----------



## Joe33426

whitewater said:


> agreed.  Website is very slow, cumbersome, and many features only work 1/2 of the time. * Thinking they have this thing hosted on a old 90's 386mhz desk top via AOL online dialup*. Hope once the finalize and rollout it become much more stable & significantly faster.  Its design is very bloated.



Thanks for writing this.  Gave a me good laugh and I needed some humor today!  I remember AOL and dial up...

The design is very similar to the recent overhaul at RCI, which is equally slow and difficult to navigate.


----------



## ronparise

tschwa2 said:


> ...but the problem is those that spent the $100,000+ feel that they are entitled to getting a 3 br for half the points of a 1 br.


 

That entitlement thing was a stupid  mistake. The guy that spent $100000 is entitled to the same vacations at the same cost as anyone else plus the possibility of a free upgrade or a discounted vacation. 

he is entitled to one extra, and thats a free newspaper delivered to his door


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## Braindead

tschwa2 said:


> The rumor was the new system would let you choose which points.  I seems like that may not be the case and the system only knows to to pick the points expiring first which means it will not be able to distinquish ARP points you wanted to keep and pooled or moved points that you might want to use first.


VCs have been able to reassign points to accommodate ARP. 
A VIP Platinum makes a 10 month reservation in October and hasn't moved his current years points forward yet. Then in November wants to make ARP reservation for Christmas the VCs move points to contracts to accomplish the reservation.

If they can't do that it doesn't matter if you've moved points forward or not. The result is the same


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## Makai Guy

Two posts of harassment towards another poster have been deleted.  Staff here is quickly running out of patience with this.  This is a valuable topic -- it would be a shame to see it closed due to the actions of a few.


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## chapjim

dagger1 said:


> I agree.  If my wife and I are going somewhere, we book a 1 BR.  Getting a 2 or 3 BR is if no value to us.  When traveling with family (we have 2 x 3BR's booked at Bonnet Creek in December), we book 3 BR's...  We would never  book 2 x 1 or 2 BR's hoping for an upgrade. We go on 8-10 trips a year, so even if Platinum VIP we wouldn't  have enough points to double and triple book rooms to play the system.  But I do understand the benefit of upgrading from a 1 BR to a 2-3 BR and getting a points discount.  Getting points back would be great, just not worth $100-$200K, to me at least...



I don't understand how you can say upgrades are of no interest to you (or agree with someone who said that). 

If you can book a 1BR Suite and upgrade to a 1BR for you and your wife, you are better off because you saved some points.  For your two 3BR units for family, if you had been able to book two 1BR units and upgrade to 3BR units, you would have been better off.  You could have taken another vacation. 

Would that not be of interest to you?


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## raygo123

chapjim said:


> I don't understand how you can say upgrades are of no interest to you (or agree with someone who said that).
> 
> If you can book a 1BR Suite and upgrade to a 1BR for you and your wife, you are better off because you saved some points.  For your two 3BR units for family, if you had been able to book two 1BR units and upgrade to 3BR units, you would have been better off.  You could have taken another vacation.
> 
> Would that not be of interest to you?


Still not as good as if you could cancel and rebook

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## chapjim

raygo123 said:


> Still not as good as if you could cancel and rebook
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk



Of course not, but he didn't say cancel and rebook wasn't of interest to him.  He was talking about upgrades.


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## md8287

Upgrades are always nice but I would prefer (usually) same # of bedrooms but nicer view/presidential. Hope upgrade can differentiate as I know others have different preferences. 

I was sold cancel/rebook as key piece in December but never did it so no real impact. 

An unintended consequence here could (hopefully) be that when most people rent their units they do so at a healthy profit (50-100% over cost) or at least better than break even. It always stinks to try to rent a 2BR when someone else has the same for rent based on points for a studio.


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## Joe33426

chapjim said:


> I don't understand how you can say upgrades are of no interest to you (or agree with someone who said that).
> 
> If you can book a 1BR Suite and upgrade to a 1BR for you and your wife, you are better off because you saved some points.  For your two 3BR units for family, if you had been able to book two 1BR units and upgrade to 3BR units, you would have been better off.  You could have taken another vacation.
> 
> Would that not be of interest to you?



Who wouldn't want a good upgrade?  

If I'm on an international flight, I'd love to be upgraded to business class.  Is it worth $3K or $4K, to buy the business seat in the first place?  For some, the cost would be worth it.  Too much money for me.  I'll squeeze into coach at get to Europe paralyzed, but $3-4K better off.  

I think that the post is just saying for the price of VIP, the upgrades aren't worth it in their opinion.  I'd have to agree.  Although the thought of being able to cancel-rebook-upgrade sounds fabulous, the price of VIP is just a little too much for most of us. That's all.  I don't think it was anything disrespectful to anyone that got VIP the honest way.


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## chapjim

Got a question about cancellations that arises because Wyndham's wording is different in two places.

Under ADDING GUEST CONFIRMATIONS TO YOUR RESERVATIONS, it says, "if you have not obtained the required Guest Confirmation(s) within 48 hours after the reservation(s) is confirmed, the additional reservation(s) will be subject to cancellation and the corresponding points may be forfeited in accordance with the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Cancellation Policy."

Two paragraphs later, it says, "If Guest Confirmations are not added to the reservations within 48 hours of the launch of the upgraded systems, they will be subject to cancellation in accordance with the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Cancellation Policy."

One place it addresses points being forfeited; in the other it addresses reservations being canceled.  If in the first instance, Wyndham cancels the reservation outside 15 days from check-in, does this mean points may be forfeited or only if the cancellation is within 15 days?

In the second part, what happens to the points if Wyndham cancels the reservation?  Forfeited if within 15 day of check-in, returned to the account otherwise?  The CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Cancellation Policy doesn't say anything about who does the cancellation.

Am I being overly picky or suspicious?  (Is there some reason not to be?)


----------



## chapjim

Joe33426 said:


> Who wouldn't want a good upgrade?
> 
> If I'm on an international flight, I'd love to be upgraded to business class.  Is it worth $3K or $4K, to buy the business seat in the first place?  For some, the cost would be worth it.  Too much money for me.  I'll squeeze into coach at get to Europe paralyzed, but $3-4K better off.
> 
> I think that the post is just saying for the price of VIP, the upgrades aren't worth it in their opinion.  I'd have to agree.  Although the thought of being able to cancel-rebook-upgrade sounds fabulous, the price of VIP is just a little too much for most of us. That's all.  I don't think it was anything disrespectful to anyone that got VIP the honest way.



You may well be right but he didn't say of that.  The post said nothing about the cost/value, just that is was of no interest to him.  Nothing about how one achieved VIP status, either.


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## dagger1

chapjim said:


> I don't understand how you can say upgrades are of no interest to you (or agree with someone who said that).
> 
> If you can book a 1BR Suite and upgrade to a 1BR for you and your wife, you are better off because you saved some points.  For your two 3BR units for family, if you had been able to book two 1BR units and upgrade to 3BR units, you would have been better off.  You could have taken another vacation.
> 
> Would that not be of interest to you?


What I meant was that I wouldn't take the chance.  If only one of the 1BR's upgraded, I would be forced to tell some family members they couldn't go.  If I got no upgrades, I would have to tell almost everyone their trip was cancelled.  So I always book what I need for the family trips, just can't rely on "maybe". Are upgrades guaranteed to VIP owners?


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## chapjim

Okay.  The way the post was written, it sounded like upgrades have never been of interest.  Gottit!


----------



## dagger1

chapjim said:


> Okay.  The way the post was written, it sounded like upgrades have never been of interest.  Gottit!


Sorry if the original post was confusing.  I totally understand that "cancel/rebook/upgrade" is very interesting to some, these folks have spent $100-$200K to gain these VIP perks.


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## wed100105

I'm interested to see how the one night bookings affect the system. We don't live close enough to drive and stay just one night at a resort. However, if we did, I would book a lot of units for Saturday nights throughout the year and go. It would be a blast to take the kids to the Dells and go with friends for just a short weekend getaway. Also, how will housekeeping be affected by these one night stays? More maintenence fees for us perhaps?


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## Sandy VDH

In the current system you could book a single night IF a single leftover night was already available. 

I would assume in the new system, within 14 days, you could book a single night, EVEN if one was not already available as there were 2 or more nights available.  I would also assume that you can continue to book single nights prior to 14 days, provided they are already out there in the inventory.


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## tschwa2

One problem with a single night stay at a timeshare is check in is often 4 or 5pm and check out is often 10 am or 11 am with much less wiggle room than a hotel.  With a hotel there is usually no problem checking in at 2pm and checking out at noon and sometimes even 1-2pm for staycation type stays.


----------



## Sandy VDH

tschwa2 said:


> One problem with a single night stay at a timeshare is check in is often 4 or 5pm and check out is often 10 am or 11 am with much less wiggle room than a hotel.  With a hotel there is usually no problem checking in at 2pm and checking out at noon and sometimes even 1-2pm for staycation type stays.



I have done a saturday with a throw away sunday, with no plans to say overnight, just to leave at the end of the day and not have such an early checkout.  At least Sunday is midweek night, so that helps with saving points.


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## tschwa2

Sandy VDH said:


> I have done a saturday with a throw away sunday, with no plans to say overnight, just to leave at the end of the day and not have such an early checkout.  At least Sunday is midweek night, so that helps with saving points.


I almost always have to do a throwaway night.  We travel with my 98 yo grandmother and it takes quite a bit of work to get her ready in the morning and pack up various assistive devices.  For places that are less than a 4 hour drive it is usually just easier to leave 5-7pm (after dinner) and then get on the road.


----------



## Avislo

If 2 overlapping reservations are made and a guest reservation is not made for one of them, Owner Care advises that if one is cancelled then the points go back to your account if it is cancelled before the 15 in advance period.  They are lost when the 15 day cutoff period arrives if it is cancelled


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> That entitlement thing was a stupid  mistake. The guy that spent $100000 is entitled to the same vacations at the same cost as anyone else plus the possibility of a free upgrade or a discounted vacation.
> 
> he is entitled to one extra, and thats a free newspaper delivered to his door


I disagree with you. In fact under they wyndham guide (prior to these changes) he WAS entitled to an upgrade IF is available within the 60 day window. But we are splitting hairs. Reading the facebook groups there are people who are pissed, people who are happy and people who have no idea what is going on. Everyone can find something to hate and like. I'm just SUPER glad they didn't mess with the resale/VIP math.


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> Someone on Facebook posted this
> 
> _* "I just called my Wyndham rep and she says when VIP members do a booking there will be a button called "up/down". When clicked this button will automatically give VIP members their discount and upgrade (if possible) at their designated discount/upgrade window."*_
> 
> If this is true, not only will there be automatic upgrades if available, there will also be automatic discounts.  So if I have a one bedroom another one bedroom is available, if Im first in line, Ill get the discount automatically, and then my one bedroom will be available, so the next one bedroom reservation gets their discount...and so on
> 
> Now if we carry this to its logical conclusion that means, if I make two one bedroom reservations and I cancel one, that will set into motion a chain reaction so that every one bedroom reservation gets remade at a discount
> 
> or if one 2 bedroom gets upgraded into a three, and that makes the two bedroom available, then the chain reaction happens and every two bedroom gets remade at the discount
> 
> 
> 
> or am I missing something
> 
> the question of course is Are automatic discounts part of the automatic upgrade feature... who knows??


Ron, this was the point I was making in that other thread -- which I why I said the changes were not as bad as first thought...there are going to be several methods with which to make adjustments. As always if you have LOTS of points there will be LOTS of ways to do things.


----------



## scootr5

wed100105 said:


> I'm interested to see how the one night bookings affect the system. We don't live close enough to drive and stay just one night at a resort. However, if we did, I would book a lot of units for Saturday nights throughout the year and go. It would be a blast to take the kids to the Dells and go with friends for just a short weekend getaway. Also, how will housekeeping be affected by these one night stays? More maintenence fees for us perhaps?



You can only book one night stays inside of 14 days. If you're not VIP those would chew through your housekeeping credits pretty quickly. 

Also, you'll likely never see a Saturday night in the Dells available.


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## gottashiner

Has anyone else not received an email regarding these huge changes?  I'm platinum but I've received nothing!  They are probably pissed at me because I did submit a complaint to the Florida Dept of Business & Professional Regulation regarding all the crap they did when they put my account on hold.  Their responses made me wonder whose account they were referring to because it was nothing that I had done or matched any dates when I was in contact with them.  I am pretty disgusted with Wyndham and if I could figure out how to get rid of my points for what I have invested, I'd be done.  I think that's sad.  We bought over 1 million direct and we get treated like poop.


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## am1

Within 60 days of check in will any units, other then the smallest available at the resort be available to be booked by non VIP's/VIPs or will all go to upgrades.  Not very good for someone that wants to book last minute.  Be careful what you wish for.


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## paxsarah

am1 said:


> Within 60 days of check in will any units, other then the smallest available at the resort be available to be booked by non VIP's/VIPs or will all go to upgrades.  Not very good for someone that wants to book last minute.  Be careful what you wish for.



That's what I think will happen. There will probably be a number of studios and possibly 1BRs depending on the location available, but my guess is inside 60 days most available/canceled units will go to automatic upgrades.


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## chapjim

paxsarah said:


> That's what I think will happen. There will probably be a number of studios and possibly 1BRs depending on the location available, but my guess is inside 60 days most available/canceled units will go to automatic upgrades.



I agree.  The only thing available will be the lowest rated unit in the resort.  

For the same reason, skipping a class of unit will not happen.  If I have a 1BR unit, the best I can hope for is an upgrade to a 2BR unit.  A 3BR unit will be taken by someone who had a 2BR unit.  I get the 2BR unit on an upgrade.  If there is something smaller than a 1BR Deluxe unit, whoever had that will get the upgrade to my 1BR Deluxe unit.


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## bnoble

I don't have a problem with that. Wyndham, like any timeshare, is not designed for last-minute booking. It doesn't take a Ph.D. in linguistics to read the program materials and realize that the close-in inventory is expected to be the leftovers that other people don't want---never mind the fact that Wyndham is allowed to take any inventory they want inside 60 days as well.


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## am1

But that makes non VIP owners, Silver Vip and any Vip owner without a reservation impossible to book anything but the smallest unit at the resort locked out from staying there.


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## OutSkiing

dagger1 said:


> I agree.  If my wife and I are going somewhere, we book a 1 BR.  Getting a 2 or 3 BR is if no value to us.  When traveling with family (we have 2 x 3BR's booked at Bonnet Creek in December), we book 3 BR's...  We would never  book 2 x 1 or 2 BR's hoping for an upgrade. We go on 8-10 trips a year, so even if Platinum VIP we wouldn't  have enough points to double and triple book rooms to play the system.  But I do understand the benefit of upgrading from a 1 BR to a 2-3 BR and getting a points discount.  Getting points back would be great, just not worth $100-$200K, to me at least...


When my wife, daughter and I travel we get a 1 br.  When its more family we get a 2br (sometimes 3br).  If I have enough points, it will still be worth booking an extra 1br to correspond to those 2br stays, and a studio to correspond to the 1br stays.  We might get the upgrade on the lower unit and then be able to cancel the original bigger one.

I wonder whether 'odd shaped' reservations will insulate from others taking a cancel?  Of course a 6 night stay would not be taken by a 7 night reservation, but what about an 8 night stay? It will be interesting to see whether it would automatically go to a 7 night reservation leaving the orphan day or just not match.

I also wonder whether when we choose to 'auto upgrade' there might be a list of upgrade room types to choose from like there is today inside the window.  Might still be able to select a 3br from a 1br reservation even though you'd be risking not getting it because a 2br auto upgrade would pre-empt.  Still the reservation timing might allow this one to pre-empt.  Having a list would at least enable upgrading from a 1br ocean view to a 2br ocean view (skipping over the 2br parking lot view in some resorts).

Bob


----------



## raygo123

L

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## OutSkiing

Bigrob said:


> I don't believe so. The language in the supplement that makes me think that:
> 
> "As a Club Wyndham Plus Member, you receive specific benefits that are associated with your contract and membership type. Your points allow you to use your benefits, regardless of which contract they came from, and with our upcoming enhancements you will no longer have to worry about different point types and their eligibility."


That is an interesting phrase. Could apply to resale points added to a VIP account as you suspect. I am trying to figure out what else this might mean assuming they disavow any knowledge of resale. One thing it does NOT mean per their other wording is that pooled forward points can still not apparently count toward RARP (they explicitly say these points can only be used during standard and last minute periods). Could it mean that as long as you have any CWA points then all your points can be used to ARP at a CWA resort?  For that matter maybe even CWP points that are short of enough for an ARP reservation can be supplemented by other points in the same account.  Maybe to get ARP automatically showing up online they will allow this.  Or if you have only 105000 points from a specific resort will the reservation system only show small rooms for us at the 13 month window?

Bob


----------



## Braindead

Bigrob said:


> I don't believe so. The language in the supplement that makes me think that:
> 
> "As a Club Wyndham Plus Member, you receive specific benefits that are associated with your contract and membership type. Your points allow you to use your benefits, regardless of which contract they came from, and with our upcoming enhancements you will no longer have to worry about different point types and their eligibility."
> .


Agree 100 percent resale will still get the same treatment as they do today. 

The way they are going to control the size of memberships is limit the amount of contracts in a membership.

Has anyone that was audited and suspended been able to keep more than 10 contracts in a membership ? 

Has anyone had to reduce the amount of contracts or start a new membership?


----------



## wjappraise

Braindead said:


> Agree 100 percent resale will still get the same treatment as they do today.
> 
> The way they are going to control the size of memberships is limit the amount of contracts in a membership.
> 
> Has anyone that was audited and suspended been able to keep more than 10 contracts in a membership ?
> 
> Has anyone had to reduce the amount of contracts or start a new membership?



I was suspended and still not cleared, although my account is partially "thawed". I have received absolutely no communication nor responses from Wyndham since October.  I have 17 contracts under one member account.  No requests to change my configuration.  They just keep cashing my monthly checks without so much as a courtesy phone call or email in response to me. Contemptible.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Braindead

wjappraise said:


> I was suspended and still not cleared, although my account is partially "thawed". I have received absolutely no communication nor responses from Wyndham since October.  I have 17 contracts under one member account.  No requests to change my configuration.  They just keep cashing my monthly checks without so much as a courtesy phone call or email in response to me. Contemptible.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It will be interesting what if anything you have to do to get fully restored.

If any of you can let us know.
I still find it hard to believe I'm the only one to be exposed to a contract limit. I've never done a single rental and not even VIP till this year. Have never been involved in a points audit at all


----------



## bnoble

am1 said:


> But that makes non VIP owners, Silver Vip and any Vip owner without a reservation impossible to book anything but the smallest unit at the resort locked out from staying there.


Nonsense. Book at the beginning of the window, you can get what you need. If you wait until 60 days or less? Leftovers. As was intended (and frankly, what's there now.)


----------



## chapjim

OutSkiing said:


> When my wife, daughter and I travel we get a 1 br.  When its more family we get a 2br (sometimes 3br).  If I have enough points, it will still be worth booking an extra 1br to correspond to those 2br stays, and a studio to correspond to the 1br stays.  We might get the upgrade on the lower unit and then be able to cancel the original bigger one.
> 
> I wonder whether 'odd shaped' reservations will insulate from others taking a cancel?  Of course a 6 night stay would not be taken by a 7 night reservation, but what about an 8 night stay? It will be interesting to see whether it would automatically go to a 7 night reservation leaving the orphan day or just not match.
> 
> I also wonder whether when we choose to 'auto upgrade' there might be a list of upgrade room types to choose from like there is today inside the window.  Might still be able to select a 3br from a 1br reservation even though you'd be risking not getting it because a 2br auto upgrade would pre-empt.  Still the reservation timing might allow this one to pre-empt.  Having a list would at least enable upgrading from a 1br ocean view to a 2br ocean view (skipping over the 2br parking lot view in some resorts).
> 
> Bob



That was my point.  I would expect that we will never see a choice of units to upgrade to.  If I have a 1BR unit and a 3BR unit becomes available, the 3BR unit will be taken by someone upgrading from a 2BR unit.

Plus, the way the VIP Upgrade Opt-In is written, " . . . will automatically upgrade your existing reservation *to the next largest unit if it becomes available* during your upgrade window."  If this means exactly what it says, we will not be able to upgrade from a 1BR to a 3BR even if a 3BR becomes available and no one wants to upgrade to it because it is not the next largest unit.  This could be poor drafting, too.


----------



## chapjim

am1 said:


> But that makes non VIP owners, Silver Vip and any Vip owner without a reservation impossible to book anything but the smallest unit at the resort locked out from staying there.



For prime time reservations, I expect this will be true.  For off-sea


wjappraise said:


> I was suspended and still not cleared, although my account is partially "thawed". I have received absolutely no communication nor responses from Wyndham since October.  I have 17 contracts under one member account.  No requests to change my configuration.  They just keep cashing my monthly checks without so much as a courtesy phone call or email in response to me. Contemptible.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Cashing your checks and peeing on your leg.


----------



## Bigrob

chapjim said:


> That was my point.  I would expect that we will never see a choice of units to upgrade to.  If I have a 1BR unit and a 3BR unit becomes available, the 3BR unit will be taken by someone upgrading from a 2BR unit.
> 
> Plus, the way the VIP Upgrade Opt-In is written, " . . . will automatically upgrade your existing reservation *to the next largest unit if it becomes available* during your upgrade window."  If this means exactly what it says, we will not be able to upgrade from a 1BR to a 3BR even if a 3BR becomes available and no one wants to upgrade to it because it is not the next largest unit.  This could be poor drafting, too.



No, it is not poor drafting. I believe the wording is precise and means exactly that. A 1BR unit will not be eligible to be upgraded into a 3BR unit. Whether the system will actually be coded that way or not is still an open question...


----------



## CO skier

Bigrob said:


> No, it is not poor drafting. I believe the wording is precise and means exactly that. A 1BR unit will not be eligible to be upgraded into a 3BR unit. Whether the system will actually be coded that way or not is still an open question...


That is what I thought after reading the supplement, but consider the difference in interpretation between the "next larger unit" (a one step increase) and the "next largest unit" upgrade (an upgrade to _whatever_ larger unit is available).  (And the second interpretation is why I think Gold and Silver VIP owners are getting royally screwed, if that is in fact what happens).

I have no idea what will be the interpretation under the new rules, but this new rule is not exactly precise, and leaves some room for confusion.


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## Bigrob

CO skier said:


> That is what I thought after reading the supplement, but consider the difference in interpretation between the "next larger unit" (a one step increase) and the "next largest unit" upgrade (an upgrade to _whatever_ larger unit is available).  (And the second interpretation is why I think Gold and Silver VIP owners are getting royally screwed, if that is in fact what happens).
> 
> I have no idea what will be the interpretation under the new rules, but this new rule is not exactly precise, and leaves some room for confusion.



Yes, you are right, as a matter of fact it discounts the possibility of an upgrade for view entirely, which is also an automatic upgrade option according to folks I spoke to. I stand corrected as the language is not as precise as I first thought. 

What is interesting is the change in language from the original upgrade wording:

CWP Resort Unit Size Upgrades: 
 - Choose to receive 1 upgrade on each existing reservation to the next largest unit available
 - Receive an instant upgrade to the next largest unit available when booking reservation

The new language omits the word "available" which led me to conclude only the next largest unit would be presented as an option.

Another reason why I believe my original interpretation is correct: Suppose there are 6 units eligible to be upgraded, all 1BR units. There are 6 units larger than a 1BR at the time; 5 2BR units, and a 4BR Presidential. All other units have either already been upgraded or are not eligible (gold, silver, or non-VIP reservations in larger units). The first 5 upgrade into 2BRs. The last one upgrades into a 4BR Presidential. 

I don't think it's going to work that way.


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## bogey21

gottashiner said:


> I am pretty disgusted with Wyndham and if I could figure out how to get rid of my points for what I have invested, I'd be done.  I think that's sad.  We bought over 1 million direct and we get treated like poop.



I have never owned Wyndham but I sympathize with those of you who are being impacted by what is going on.  It is clear to me as one one on the outside looking in that many of you are not going to get the benefit of what you bought (or thought you bought) and there is nothing you are going to be able to do about it.

George


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## CO skier

bogey21 said:


> ... not going to get the benefit of what you bought (or thought you bought) ...


That is a key difference in all of this.  Every owner bought the ability to book a reservation and cancel a reservation.  VIP ownership includes the ability to upgrade a reservation within a certain window.

Each owner still has what they bought.


----------



## ecwinch

CO skier said:


> That is a key difference in all of this.  Every owner bought the ability to book a reservation and cancel a reservation.  VIP ownership includes the ability to upgrade a reservation within a certain window.
> 
> Each owner still has what they bought.


Correct. None of us were handed tablets with the VIP benefits chiseled in stone.


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## ronparise

bnoble said:


> Nonsense. Book at the beginning of the window, you can get what you need. If you wait until 60 days or less? Leftovers. As was intended (and frankly, what's there now.)




They say wisdom comes with age. George is older than I am and no doubt wiser but even at my age I see the wisdom in what he says here

The upgrades (and discounts) were designed to get the leftovers filled. They were not meant to provide me with a profit  when I rent high value, high demand reservations. like Christmas at Bonnet Creek.    Nor were they meant to provide  every VIP owner with a discount and upgrade on every reservation

theres a reason I always called  cancel and rebook a trick. It was a trick. Good while it lasted, but it had to be stopped.  Sorry, this was never a benefit of ownership. It was a loophole we exploited. No different than the kid that discovered a secret spot on the vending machine.. kick it just right at the same time you drop your nickle in the slot, and you get 2 candy bars for the price of one. (yea, I know Im dating myself)

What we are doing here is trying to discover another place to kick that  machine



CO skier said:


> That is a key difference in all of this.  Every owner bought the ability to book a reservation and cancel a reservation.  VIP ownership includes the ability to upgrade a reservation within a certain window.
> 
> Each owner still has what they bought.






ecwinch said:


> Correct. None of us were handed tablets with the VIP benefits chiseled in stone.


----------



## ilya

Bigrob said:


> I don't believe so. The language in the supplement that makes me think that:
> 
> "As a Club Wyndham Plus Member, you receive specific benefits that are associated with your contract and membership type. Your points allow you to use your benefits, regardless of which contract they came from, and with our upcoming enhancements you will no longer have to worry about different point types and their eligibility."
> 
> So , do you really think they are going to allow resale to be treated  as VIP level? I wonder why they would put that wording in the new supplement . It almost seems like they have to disclose  this information for legal reasons. Otherwise, I don't see why they would broadcast the eligibility of resale. Something that have been trying to fight against for so long.
> 
> I have been contemplating buying resale for some time to add to my Gold. Is it still a good idea. If so, CWA or deeded in a low MF resort like Grand Desert, Kingsgate, Smoky Mountain or others like National Harbour. I need to know from the experts to get in now or wait.. If they were in my situation.  I do see buying still going on  Ebay. Any feedback would be great.


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## chapjim

Bigrob said:


> No, it is not poor drafting. I believe the wording is precise and means exactly that. A 1BR unit will not be eligible to be upgraded into a 3BR unit. Whether the system will actually be coded that way or not is still an open question...



Most likely, it won't matter.  If a 3BR unit becomes available, it will be taken by someone automatically upgrading from a 2BR unit.

The truth is, we have no idea how some of this will be implemented.  Wyndham has been extraordinarily clever in creating policy changes that will put renters out of business, even though there is some uncertainty in what some of the changes mean.  Writing policy changes is one thing.  Writing code that does what the policy says is altogether different.  Who knows how this will all work when the IT people get done!


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## ecwinch

ronparise said:


> No different than the kid that discovered a secret spot on the vending machine.. kick it just right at the same time you drop your nickle in the slot, and you get 2 candy bars for the price of one. (yea, I know Im dating myself)
> 
> What we are doing here is trying to discover another place to kick that  machine



Yep. Its like the vending machine guy has just told us they are installing a new machine next month, and now we are dreaming up all the different ways we might kick it and what might drop out. But until we see it, no one will know.


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## dagger1

am1 said:


> But that makes non VIP owners, Silver Vip and any Vip owner without a reservation impossible to book anything but the smallest unit at the resort locked out from staying there.


Yes.  Possibly resulting in more folks (Silver, Gold VIP) booking what they actually want (2-3 BR's)  13-10 months out, meaning less availability for the hopeful "upgraders"?


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## ronparise

I have been a renter and a VIP owner from my very first purchase. I dont know how it happened, but it did. I bought 3 contracts on ebay and became a silver VIP. I didnt know anything about discounts and upgrades, so I looked for the highest demand reservations at  the  locations with limited supply. and if I saw a decent spread between my cost (mf) and what i could get in rent, I made the reservation

as time went on I learned about discounts and upgrades and I learned how to become Platinum, cheaply (thanks guys.. for the education...you know who you are) and I started to exploit the cancel and re book trick.  But I knew Wyndham had to stop the practice sooner or later..  and now they have

i am not moved by the argument that "this is a benefit we paid for"  Its not. Its something we have been allowed to get away with. We have had a good run, but its over.
We are all gonna have to pay full price for the high demand reservations, most of the time. If you need a 3 bedroom you are going to have to reserve a 3 bedroom from the beginning.

As for us renters and owners that can be satisfied with the smallest units at a resort, I see a  possible loophole.  And that is that the smallest units at a resort cant ever be someones upgrade, so perhaps we can reserve these, and be free to cancel and rebook inside 60 days.  So my job now is to determine which resorts have studios that can be rented at a profit if I can get them at half price

one bedrooms in San Francisco are  300000 points a week. so a week at half price will be about $125 a night.. Hotels in the same area are closer to $300
three bedrooms at Reunion are the smallest units there,  at half of 285000 under $125 a night, I see profit potential there too
hotel rooms in New York  at 275000 points are under $125 a night. I think there is profit to be had here too
how about my favorite, New Orleans at Mardi Gras. a studio is 126000 points a week, half price is about $50 a night.  I have been able to rent these at $300 a night


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## Braindead

dagger1 said:


> Yes.  Possibly resulting in more folks (Silver, Gold VIP) booking what they actually want (2-3 BR's)  13-10 months out, meaning less availability for the hopeful "upgraders"?


The trouble before they booked both. What they wanted and smaller unit. Some even booked 2 of what they wanted just in case they lost the rebook and or upgrade


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## OutSkiing

Bigrob said:


> Another reason why I believe my original interpretation is correct: Suppose there are 6 units eligible to be upgraded, all 1BR units. There are 6 units larger than a 1BR at the time; 5 2BR units, and a 4BR Presidential. All other units have either already been upgraded or are not eligible (gold, silver, or non-VIP reservations in larger units). The first 5 upgrade into 2BRs. The last one upgrades into a 4BR Presidential.
> 
> I don't think it's going to work that way.



Which is why the upgrade algorithm is a very tricky thing. The question of whether / how to set priority for multiple size upgrades is one matter but there are more issues.  Assume those 6 units eligible for upgrade are all 7 day stays. If 4 of them find an exact duration match from a 1 bedroom those are easy. What if there are also matches for 4 day or 3 day 1br stays at the 90 day window from people who did ARP reservations exactly 13 months out? Does it fill those first or give it to another 7 day reservation that was submitted a few days later?  Or wait until the 45 day window opens up and give it to a full 7 day reservation in that group?

Its not just a coding challenge .. writing system requirements has to be crazy .. getting 3 people in a room to talk it through must result in a chaotic conversation every time.

If all it auto-assigns is exact duration matches for exactly one size up then there are still likely to be a lot of split upgrade opportunities left at the 60/45 day window.  Will they keep the current upgrade ability for that window or will that be crippled too?

Bob


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## ronparise

If you need more points for your families vacation needs buy now.. Your VIP benefits might extend to the new points, or they might not. but it dosent matter the only benefit valuable to most of us has been the almost automatic discount. and thats probably gone for your gold membership now

On the other hand if you are considering a new purchase and you insist on getting a discount and upgrade all the time.. dont but now..


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## dagger1

Braindead said:


> The trouble before they booked both. What they wanted and smaller unit. Some even booked 2 of what they wanted just in case they lost the rebook and or upgrade


Great point!  I am assuming only really large points owners could book 2 and/or 3 units to hold for 7-10 months...  This must be why credit pooling was so important.?  Or maybe possible for someone who only booked one vacation per year, meaning less points needed to hold 3 units..?  It will be interesting to see whether this results in more or less inventory 60 days out for the Platinum VIP's...


----------



## raygo123

dagger1 said:


> Great point!  I am assuming only really large points owners could book 2 and/or 3 units to hold for 7-10 months...  This must be why credit pooling was so important.?  Or maybe possible for someone who only booked one vacation per year, meaning less points needed to hold 3 units..?  It will be interesting to see whether this results in more or less inventory 60 days out for the Platinum VIP's...


I have 490,000 points, and a gold VIP.  I can book my winter vacation in February and my spring vacation as the rules stand now and cancel and rebook both with a double booking, make a 3rd reservation for before the 15th of August, using credit pool points at 10 months, and cancel and rebook, and still have time to deposit my points in the credit pool.  I do not consider myself a really large owner.

PS, I have done this the last two years.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


----------



## ronparise

dagger1 said:


> Great point!  I am assuming only really large points owners could book 2 and/or 3 units to hold for 7-10 months...  This must be why credit pooling was so important.?  Or maybe possible for someone who only booked one vacation per year, meaning less points needed to hold 3 units..?  It will be interesting to see whether this results in more or less inventory 60 days out for the Platinum VIP's...



Its true that i would hold multiple reservations for months before I did the cancel rebook upgrad thing. but I didnt release anything at 60 days.  Mardi Gras is my example, I would reserve 9 one bedrooms and a studio at 13 months. at 60 days I would start canceling, and rebooking, and upgrading with the expectation that I would get 9 one bedrooms and one studio all at half the studio price,,, nothing was left available

Now I expect that Ill make twice as many reservations at 13 months
I forsee less availability at 60 days, not more, at least for the high value rentals


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## bnoble

ronparise said:


> I forsee less availability at 60 days, not more, at least for the high value rentals


But high value rentals are already gone at 60 days now---because they are in high demand. You can't go below zero.


----------



## Railman83

ronparise said:


> Its true that i would hold multiple reservations for months before I did the cancel rebook upgrad thing. but I didnt release anything at 60 days.  Mardi Gras is my example, I would reserve 9 one bedrooms and a studio at 13 months. at 60 days I would start canceling, and rebooking, and upgrading with the expectation that I would get 9 one bedrooms and one studio all at half the studio price,,, nothing was left available
> 
> Now I expect that Ill make twice as many reservations at 13 months
> I forsee less availability at 60 days, not more, at least for the high value rentals


Ron I'm curious how that would work in your Mardi Gras example, if you booked 18 one bedrooms and two studios at 13 months how would you get around the 48 hour guest requirement?


----------



## ronparise

bnoble said:


> But high value rentals are already gone at 60 days now---because they are in high demand. You can't go below zero.



That's the point I was trying to make

At 60 days I wouldn't expect to see anything worth much


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## bnoble

Right, but that's already true, so it's not like these changes will make that worse.


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## chapjim

Has anyone heard anything about when this new system will be rolled out and the new policies put in place?  

I thought I saw May someplace but maybe not.  If Wyndham now projects May, what is the probability that it will happen in May?  This sounds like a massive IT project and IT hasn't traditionally been one of WVR's strong points.

In an old book, Norman Augustine said projects will be completed in one-third more time than the current estimate.  Taken literally, that means you never quite get there.


----------



## ronparise

Railman83 said:


> Ron I'm curious how that would work in your Mardi Gras example, if you booked 18 one bedrooms and two studios at 13 months how would you get around the 48 hour guest requirement?



In 2 one million point platinum accounts  I get 60 guest confirmations per year. id use 20 when I make the reservations and add phony names and 20 more when I change the name to my guests

By the way I have more than 20 regulars for Mardi Gras. I could probably add the real name in 48 hours

I think the real future of renting will be concentrating on the smallest units at a resort

A three bedroom at Bonnet Creek assuming no discount and no upgrade is 308000 points. A one bedroom is 168000. If I'm right we will still be able to cancel and rebook a one bedroom so two one bedrooms will cost 168000 points

No it's not a 3 bedroom at half the one bedroom price. But 2 one bedrooms will sleep as many people and be cheap enough that I think a profit can be had and if you arent in it for the money, mf on 168000 points is about $1000 a week. Not too bad


----------



## Avislo

chapjim said:


> Has anyone heard anything about when this new system will be rolled out and the new policies put in place?
> 
> I thought I saw May someplace but maybe not.  If Wyndham now projects May, what is the probability that it will happen in May?  This sounds like a massive IT project and IT hasn't traditionally been one of WVR's strong points.
> 
> In an old book, Norman Augustine said projects will be completed in one-third more time than the current estimate.  Taken literally, that means you never quite get there.



One respected poster indicated he thought May 30, 2017.  Wyndham indicted later this spring.  Spring ends June 27, 2017.

The new policies appear to now be in place with the release of the supplement.  What now becomes the issue is what practices are being implement via the new automated Website.  My guess, practices that implement the headers/sub-headers that are on the current preview site.  More may follow throughout the year.

The next big step is add the reservations related features to the new web site.

Talked with Reservations.  If I wanted a RARP at Governor’s Green for the first two weeks of March for 14 days, it would cost me 2 out of 2 of my VIP Platinum RARP transactions.  The representative thinks the system will roll out in the next couple of weeks.  If I wait, I can do my 14 day reservation all at once using just 1 of 3 RARP transactions that I will get under the new system.  If I use the automatic opt in option, it would have to be canceled before the 15 day point if I do not want the automatic upgrade anymore.  When using this feature, at time of reservation, I can opt for a larger unit or a better view but not both.The system is not going to permit a upgrade of more than one size unit even if the next level up is available.  Example:  If I booked a 1 bedroom for my reservation and no two bedrooms are available but a 3 bedroom is.  The reservation is not going to automatically upgrade to a 3 bedroom.  If before the 15 day cutoff, I could take the 3 bedroom, in this example, for the points discount off  the 3 bedroom rate and cancel my one bedroom.


----------



## ronparise

chapjim said:


> Has anyone heard anything about when this new system will be rolled out and the new policies put in place?
> 
> I thought I saw May someplace but maybe not.  If Wyndham now projects May, what is the probability that it will happen in May?  This sounds like a massive IT project and IT hasn't traditionally been one of WVR's strong points.
> 
> In an old book, Norman Augustine said projects will be completed in one-third more time than the current estimate.  Taken literally, that means you never quite get there.



This is Voyager. And they have been working on it for years

24/7 reservations and ARP on line and any day check in have been part of this forever and I suspect so has the auto upgrade thing

I'm pretty sure the credit pool change is something that came up in the suspensions and that I am the guy responsible for that change (sorry) so I'm guessing that they  had to make that change at the last minute. I'd bet that last minute changes that became necessary when they learned what happened in our accounts (the suspended accounts) is what's responsible to the new date for the annual meeting

I'd also be willing to bet that Voyager will be an absolute mess when they roll it out. There are likely to be computer glitches that result in something that makes the mess that resulted in the suspensions look like nothing

I hope they keep the old system running in the background just in case


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## Avislo

ronparise said:


> This is Voyager. And they have been working on it for years
> 
> 24/7 reservations and ARP on line and any day check in have been part of this forever and I suspect so has the auto upgrade thing
> 
> I'm pretty sure the credit pool change is something that came up in the suspensions and that I am the guy responsible for that change (sorry) so I'm guessing that they  had to make that change at the last minute. I'd bet that last minute changes that became necessary when they learned what happened in our accounts (the suspended accounts) is what's responsible to the new date for the annual meeting
> 
> I'd also be willing to bet that Voyager will be an absolute mess when they roll it out. There are likely to be computer glitches that result in something that makes the mess that resulted in the suspensions look like nothing
> 
> I hope they keep the old system running in the background just in case



I only bet on sure things, this one may qualify.  The preview web site is becoming much more stable.  It would be a great preventive move to make sure any problems you see on the preview site are reported through the feedback feature.


----------



## paxsarah

Avislo said:


> One respected poster indicated he thought May 30, 2017.  Wyndham indicted later this spring.  Spring ends June 27, 2017.



Summer solstice is June 21, 2017, so the last day of spring is June 20. I think most people colloquially refer to summer starting with Memorial Day, though.


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## chapjim

Avislo said:


> I only bet on sure things, this one may qualify.  The preview web site is becoming much more stable.  It would be a great preventive move to make sure any problems you see on the preview site are reported through the feedback feature.





Avislo said:


> I only bet on sure things, this one may qualify.  The preview web site is becoming much more stable.  It would be a great preventive move to make sure any problems you see on the preview site are reported through the feedback feature.



So, what's the sure thing?


----------



## tschwa2

chapjim said:


> So, what's the sure thing?


Death and Taxes,  Increasing fees,  "Owner updates" with high pressure sales and a smattering of truth, lies and the in between?


----------



## paxsarah

I think in this case the sure thing is that when Voyager rolls out it will be a mess from an IT perspective. I'd put money on that.

But for me, the only Sure Thing is a movie that stars John Cusack.


----------



## Avislo

The prior poster is what I was referring to, the Web Site roll-out/Voyager will be a mess.


----------



## ronparise

so how is all this likely to affect the resale market place

a 1 million point Smokey mts just sold on ebay for $3500 all in   $3.50/1000 points

Is that going to end up being too high or too low


----------



## CCdad

ronparise said:


> so how is all this likely to affect the resale market place
> 
> a 1 million point Smokey mts just sold on ebay for $3500 all in   $3.50/1000 points
> 
> Is that going to end up being too high or too low



I wouldn't put much emphasis on Ebay auction prices so soon after the Wyndham program change announcement.  

I thought there were closing costs of $300 & the $299 Wyndham transfer fee that the buyer had to pay.

For all we know, that was a shill bidder intending to keep the price at a minimum amount (vs. being up front and putting in a Reserve price). I've seen several larger contracts get relisted within a day or so after either the original or relisted auction had closed.  The same contract, at the same resort and relisted by the same Ebay seller.

The shill bidding is getting pretty blatant, but I'm sure the seller would simply indicate to Ebay that the winning bidder "changed their mind."


----------



## CCdad

Bigrob said:


> No, it is not poor drafting. I believe the wording is precise and means exactly that. A 1BR unit will not be eligible to be upgraded into a 3BR unit. Whether the system will actually be coded that way or not is still an open question...



And to get a little more technical, for resorts with 2Br lockoff units a 1Br [Suite] may only be eligible for the upgrade to a 1Br deluxe unit. Or perhaps at a resort with Presidential [Reserve] units, a 1Br deluxe unit is only eligible to be upgraded to a 1Br Presidential [Reserve] unit. 

That's fine if that Presidential unit was what you really wanted, but if you were hoping to upgrade to the next highest deluxe unit, that could be an issue.


----------



## ilya

ronparise said:


> so how is all this likely to affect the resale market place
> 
> a 1 million point Smokey mts just sold on ebay for $3500 all in   $3.50/1000 points
> 
> Is that going to end up being too high or too low




Who was the ebay seller? I must have missed that one, and I have been looking..


----------



## ronparise

ilya said:


> Who was the ebay seller? I must have missed that one, and I have been looking..


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wyndham-Gre...ngZhfP5l052ze5FImg2XQ%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc


----------



## ronparise

CCdad said:


> I wouldn't put much emphasis on Ebay auction prices so soon after the Wyndham program change announcement.
> 
> I thought there were closing costs of $300 & the $299 Wyndham transfer fee that the buyer had to pay.
> 
> For all we know, that was a shill bidder intending to keep the price at a minimum amount (vs. being up front and putting in a Reserve price). I've seen several larger contracts get relisted within a day or so after either the original or relisted auction had closed.  The same contract, at the same resort and relisted by the same Ebay seller.
> 
> The shill bidding is getting pretty blatant, but I'm sure the seller would simply indicate to Ebay that the winning bidder "changed their mind."




The new rules affected my bid, and I assume some others as well.. and I dont care about shill bids.. I either get it at my price or I dont.. If the seller gets it back because he set a high reserve, or if someone else pays too much because a shill bid the thing up... I dont much care,  and the winning bid is still an indication of current market value.


----------



## CCdad

ilya said:


> Who was the ebay seller? I must have missed that one, and I have been looking..



If you want to track Wyndham auctions on Ebay, simply search for the term(s) Wyndham or Wyndham points.  

You'll get Worldmark by Wyndham auction listings too.


----------



## Roger830

There were two snipes, it looks like the new reality with all of the uncertainty,


----------



## ronparise

Roger830 said:


> There were two snipes, it looks like the new reality with all of the uncertainty,


 there were actually 4 of us post bids  in the last 4 seconds


----------



## Roger830

I meant that two snipes were reflective of the final price, the others were far lower, thus indicative of even lower prices in the future.


----------



## am1

bnoble said:


> But high value rentals are already gone at 60 days now---because they are in high demand. You can't go below zero.



But currently stuff does come available within 60 days to check in.  Just have to be lucky or good.  Going forward only the smallest rooms will have a chance of coming available.


----------



## tschwa2

am1 said:


> But currently stuff does come available within 60 days to check in.  Just have to be lucky or good.  Going forward only the smallest rooms will have a chance of coming available.



There are currently owners who cancel without planning to rebook.  Plans may have changed or a renter may get cold feet if not rented by day 15 prior.  With the auto upgrade that inventory will be taken for upgrades without sitting for any new bookings.


----------



## Avislo

Or, Last minutes dumps by Wyndham of inventory coming under their control last minute under the terms of their agreements with the Fairfield Trust.


----------



## raygo123

Well, I guess my new strategy is to book a studio and a one bedroom, since that's all we need, then, if there is an available one bedroom, book it at a discount, or if the one bedroom gets upgraded, take it, then maybe the one bedroom will upgrade the studio, then I can cancel the two bedroom, or rent it on tug.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## am1

tschwa2 said:


> There are currently owners who cancel without planning to rebook.  Plans may have changed or a renter may get cold feet if not rented by day 15 prior.  With the auto upgrade that inventory will be taken for upgrades without sitting for any new bookings.



Right that will give 0 chance to anyone that does not have a reservation any hope of getting getting anything but the smallest room size back.  Less inventory for non VIPs not more.


----------



## tschwa2

But maybe there will be more inventory in the 90-60 days when members might cancel and the VIP's won't grab up with the intention of renting out the discounted unit.


----------



## ilya

ronparise said:


> The new rules affected my bid, and I assume some others as well.. and I dont care about shill bids.. I either get it at my price or I dont.. If the seller gets it back because he set a high reserve, or if someone else pays too much because a shill bid the thing up... I dont much care,  and the winning bid is still an indication of current market value.




So I guess you are still in the market as well as other in light of all the changes with Wyndham. Big contracts must be the way to go.


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## Sandy VDH

Long post......sorry I got carried away with IT speak.

I am going to reserve opinions on predicting the how these Wyndham change impact future booking patterns. 

The auto upgrade might change the way some people behave, but not all.  Some will still try to game the system, some will not. It obviously depends on what you usually book and what inventory levels there are there.  It also depends on exactly HOW wyndham implemented the feature in the new system.  And Wyndham at this point for me is the UNKNOWN.

I think for those who usually play the cancel and rebook game, HOW and exactly WHEN the system processes cancellations AND automatic upgrades will determine what people do.  If it is real-time, than that C/R game will NOT work if there is NO inventory available when you do your C/R, as your cancel will likely be someone else's upgrade, especially during high demand time.  I think if Wyndham is going to cut off this C/R game, they would have to make it real-time (with business logic to figure out if an outstanding upgrade request exists), or at the very least NOT return canceled units back to inventory immediately and then in some regularly scheduled batch jobs, match canceled units with outstanding upgrade requests. Since the new system is suppose to be 24/7 there is NO overnight processing window. So its Realtime or it frequent batch jobs. So in either case the canceled inventory either NEVER returns (matches an outstanding upgrade request), or the inventory returns, but it is DELAYED (no outstanding requests matched, but inventory is returned once matching batch is run).  Doesn't help those who use C/R as a general approach.

However Wyndham IT in the past has not been known to be the A team, so this new auto match feature might be a bit much for them to implement thoroughly (by my business rule and IT standards).  They may implement something they think will work, and deliver on a promise, but we may find a work around it. To make system processing simpler, they may have just implemented a batch checker for upgrade processing, they schedule it at off hours to not impact overall system performance (because performance matters).  And in Batch mode it checks outstanding upgrade requests against current available inventory, upgrading where matches align.   Remember the nice brochure said upgrades IF AVAILABLE, it did not say it was delivering a VIP status based + booking number (they are generated sequentially, so lower is earlier) priority upgrade.  So in is most simplistic terms, if Wyndham runs a batch once a day or hourly and checks available inventory against upgrade requests then they are delivering on what they advertised.  Now this implementation is not as smart or as sophisticated, nor does it take inventory as it becomes available and offers it first to those who booked first, but it is easier to implement systematically.  Less real time rules, or less pending cancel or pending upgrade status of inventory (like they need more states inventory can be in).  So if they took the easy route, we may have a chance to still use C/R (that is until they hire me as a consultant or someone in IT reads this posting).  If they implemented this latter approach, I suspect it may be a short term implementation which eventually they will remedy, but in the meantime C/R will still work, provided you do it in between batch jobs.  I honest doubt that Wyndham is this stupid, but they have proven me wrong before.

Now since 90 % of my bookings are within 60 days and I do take advantage of WHAT is available in inventory and don't rely on a C/R approach, this will impact so little I likely will not care.  I am using the VIP perk as intended for excess inventory. For the 1 or 2 bookings a year that I do a SRP, it would be a nice bonus to get a free upgrade on them, if it happens.  So on the whole it doesn't bother me, as my approach to utilizing my points is not predicated on the use of the C/R approach.  

I understand other have bought into that approach from sales.  But I have always understood that all rules including VIP can be changed and altered and I suspect when we find the next work around they will change business rules to curtail that activity too.  Remember not so long ago we could transfer points to another member, I have unlimited GCs at a VIP Platinum member, etc etc.  All I know is change will happen, Most I can live with, some I don't like, but I work around it my just changing my behavior.  As VIP Platinum we used to have unlimited GCs, so in that case, as soon as I make the booking I put on GC, because I didn't care if they canceled and it did not cost me.  Then they implemented a limited number of GCs.  So now by behavior is to wait until almost the 15 day mark before putting on the GC name, because if they DO cancel I don't want to burn a GC.  If at the end of the year I have some left, I put them on as many as I have known bookings for in the next calendar year.  So now with new change, multiple reservation must have a different name, I will just alter my approach again.  

As Ron said, it is just a constant evolution and adaptation.  You just figure out a new norm and new approach and then keep moving on.  For some the answer might just be to bail, as the change is too significant or you just can't get over it.  Up to you.  Life is too short.  

So we can hope for something but expect whatever we get, it will change.


----------



## bnoble

am1 said:


> Right that will give 0 chance to anyone that does not have a reservation any hope of getting getting anything but the smallest room size back.  Less inventory for non VIPs not more.


So? Anyone expecting to find anything of value in the 60-day window was already playing with fire---if only because Wyndham can take it all then per rules of the Trust. That it might have happened sometime is of no real importance.


----------



## ronparise

ilya said:


> So I guess you are still in the market as well as other in light of all the changes with Wyndham. Big contracts must be the way to go.



I'm buying for someone else and with the assumption that the 10 contract limit is or will be a real thing. So yes, size matters


----------



## uscav8r

bnoble said:


> So? Anyone expecting to find anything of value in the 60-day window was already playing with fire---if only because Wyndham can take it all then per rules of the Trust. That it might have happened sometime is of no real importance.



In my experience, Wyndham does not take everything at 60 days and there are still some good/great bookings to be had. I think the Wyndham "rental snatch" at 60 days is slightly overblown. There must be a cost or disincentive for them to grab particular inventory, i.e. they are on the hook for the MF for the points they use on the bookings and need to have a sufficient expectation of getting a good rental fee back. This leaves inventory open for resorts/times for anything but the highest demand. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jhoug

Bigrob said:


> We don't know yet whether you will be able to or not. When I asked I was told you could request a unit with upgraded view. I am not sure what options if any will be offered when selecting the upgrade button. Obviously if you have a 2br pres you may not want an "upgrade" into a 3br deluxe for example.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Especially if you wanted the deluxe because it has a higher occupancy rather than a presidential.  i.e. the 2 BR deluxe (sleeps up to 8) and you got upgraded to a 2 BR presidential (sleeps 6) and you had 8 people, that wouldn't work, but an upgrade to a 3 BR deluxe (sleeps up to 10) would work.


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## bnoble

uscav8r said:


> In my experience, Wyndham does not take everything at 60 days and there are still some good/great bookings to be had.


Sorry, I wasn't being clear. I'm not saying that there aren't good things there, or that Wyndham actually *does* grab everything good at 60 days. But, if you read the program guidelines, it is clear that they _can_, so counting on getting anything good in the 60-day window is probably not something one should be doing.

I've always gone into this assuming that the 60-day inventory is all truly the "leftovers." That way, I'm unlikely to be disappointed.


----------



## am1

bnoble said:


> Sorry, I wasn't being clear. I'm not saying that there aren't good things there, or that Wyndham actually *does* grab everything good at 60 days. But, if you read the program guidelines, it is clear that they _can_, so counting on getting anything good in the 60-day window is probably not something one should be doing.
> 
> I've always gone into this assuming that the 60-day inventory is all truly the "leftovers." That way, I'm unlikely to be disappointed.



Have to put more effort in if you want good rooms inside 60 days.  A lot of room sizes wyndham cannot or do not take for rentals at any time.  I am able to make my living because of that.


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## ecwinch

ronparise said:


> i am not moved by the argument that "this is a benefit we paid for"  Its not. Its something we have been allowed to get away with. We have had a good run, but its over.



I think you are twisting the argument. I agree that it is not a benefit we paid for. However it is a representation that was made to induce us to buy. In a group "owners workshop" I was told that if I upgraded to Platinum VIP I could control 3x my pts level. And my sales rep provided the detail on how I could create my own inventory to ensure I could get 3 weeks at Kauai Beach Villas rather than 1. 

 That is a horse of different color.


----------



## tschwa2

ecwinch said:


> I think you are twisting the argument. I agree that it is not a benefit we paid for. However it is a representation that was made to induce us to buy. In a group "owners workshop" I was told that if I upgraded to Platinum VIP I could control 3x my pts level. And my sales rep provided the detail on how I could create my own inventory to ensure I could get 3 weeks at Kauai Beach Villas rather than 1.
> 
> That is a horse of different color.



If i was on a jury deciding the case and you used those tricks even once to your benefit then neither sales or Wyndham did anything wrong.   The salesperson showed you how to exploit the system as it currently operated and you benefited just as they told you that you would.  As a fairly savvy owner I would think that you knew that changes could happen at anytime which could change the way the system operated but you gambled that they would not change or at least not until you had gotten what your perceived minimum payback from the system.    If on the other hand you bought under those same assumptions 12-60 days ago and the change were made, I would be more inclined to let you out of your contract if you wanted out.  

There have been a few cases against Marriott since the inception of the DC where owners bought based on the rental program offered to owners (renting out owners units on Marriott.com for significantly more than MF even with Marriott's commission),  they bought or bought more because of the resale value and Marriott brokered resale program (some bought retail and made money with the brokered resales including the commission) and with the trading power through Interval based on large developer deposits with Marriott owners getting priority exchanges back into prime Marriott resorts well in advance to check in.  The results of the case were that Marriott sold the program as it currently existed at the time- with incentive to buy into the program because of these programs which they later discontinued but as there were no guarantees that Marriott would not make changes and the deeded rights remained unaltered there was no fault on the part of Marriott.  That's my BA interpretation of the results anyway.


----------



## Avislo

Wyndham Comment:  "We will continue to add more features to the preview site over the next several months, so stay tuned for regular updates and additional information."

Anyone know what the new features are going to be over and above the Reservation Related issues?

I am trying to get a seat at the upcoming Owners Meeting for the Fairfield Trust, If I can get one and attend, I will post the highlights of what I hear.  If anyone else actually gets a seat, maybe they can do the same.


----------



## bogey21

tschwa2 said:


> The results of the case were that Marriott sold the program as it currently existed at the time- with incentive to buy into the program because of these programs which they later discontinued but as there were no guarantees that Marriott would not make changes and the deeded rights remained unaltered there was no fault on the part of Marriott.  That's my BA interpretation of the results anyway.



Understanding this is why I divested my 4 Marriott Weeks many years ago.  It is also why I opted to acquire Weeks at HOA Controlled Independents rather than other majors.  Although I gave up quality for location and certainty this worked out well for me.

George


----------



## bnoble

ecwinch said:


> However it is a representation that was made to induce us to buy.


I don't think this is going to get you very far. As we all know, the purchase agreement specifically includes a clause, which the buyer must initial, that says verbal representations carry no weight, and only what is written matters.


----------



## wjappraise

bnoble said:


> I don't think this is going to get you very far. As we all know, the purchase agreement specifically includes a clause, which the buyer must initial, that says verbal representations carry no weight, and only what is written matters.



While that is true, Eric was simply stating the fact that a sales pitch was made to him (and many others) that worked.  And now, that pitch is no longer true.  While something may be contractually strong, does not mean that is ethically strong.  And none of us will have cause to prevail in a legal case with the changes, but that doesn't mean that the stench will not follow Wyndham in their efforts to sell more points to current users.  In this day of social media and google searches, this negative PR will impact Wyndham.


----------



## bnoble

wjappraise said:


> that doesn't mean that the stench will not follow Wyndham in their efforts to sell more points to current users.  In this day of social media and google searches, this negative PR will impact Wyndham.


Nonsense. Timeshare is a product that is sold, not bought. If people knew anything about the product at all before they bought, they wouldn't be buying from Wyndham in the first place. They'd be buying resale.


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## wjappraise

bnoble said:


> Nonsense. Timeshare is a product that is sold, not bought. If people knew anything about the product at all before they bought, they wouldn't be buying from Wyndham in the first place. They'd be buying resale.



That is partially true, but every day buyers think they got a "great deal," despite some being savvy enough to find this site.  And some will argue with the experienced posters here and keep their deal that is so good they claim it "screws current Wyndham owners."  And don't you think these changes will impact even resale purchases?  I do.  And at least for the time being, the market supports my assertion (see prior posts about declining resale values).  So it is not nonsense.  Just an opinion you don't share.


----------



## bachmansofwc

Again thank you to TUG! I went to into Glacier Canyon asking to go to the timeshare presentation, we wanted to buy. Luckily, we were told we were not eligible to attend the presentation (some non sense about our zip code being target by local marketing). That stroke of luck caused me to hit Google which lead me to you all. Thank you! You all saved my family so much money and headache with all these changes I am reminded of what your knowledge gave us. We would have most likely bought the sales pitch and probably would have been enticed by the "if you are VIP you cancel and rebook to rent and cover your MF's" business!

Kudos to you all and this site


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## bnoble

wjappraise said:


> That is partially true, but every day buyers think they got a "great deal," despite some being savvy enough to find this site.  And some will argue with the experienced posters here and keep their deal that is so good they claim it "screws current Wyndham owners."  And don't you think these changes will impact even resale purchases?  I do.  And at least for the time being, the market supports my assertion (see prior posts about declining resale values).  So it is not nonsense.  Just an opinion you don't share.



A few points.

The issue of buyers not wanting to believe what they hear has as much to do with psychology as anything. Timeshare is an aspirational purchase for most. After having made that decision, very few people want to be told that that shiny new thing they are really proud of is smoke and mirrors---which is why most don't look in the first place---and even fewer are able to hear and act on that advice.

Resale prices have nothing to do with Wyndham's ability to sell. Resale prices were near zero (and negative for some deeds) for a while there, and Wyndham kept selling. Wyndham does not care about the resale market, and to the extend it does would prefer it be low. With Ovation the are acting as net buyers in the secondary market, and higher prices hurt that flow of inventory.

These changes are too new to have any impact on the resale market. They were announced just last week! A few of the larger players paused during the freeze; that's probably had a bigger impact than anything.

That said, I don't yet have an opinion about how the changes will impact the average owner. The loss of the pool is a clear negative. But, if the changes collectively drive a few large-scale renters off to greener pastures, that's going to make at least a little bit of high-demand inventory available for others. They've not even been implemented yet, though, so I'm wiling to wait and see.


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> so how is all this likely to affect the resale market place
> 
> a 1 million point Smokey mts just sold on ebay for $3500 all in   $3.50/1000 points
> 
> Is that going to end up being too high or too low


The last couple of smokey sales have been depressed. I think because of all the media attention surrouding the fires though I truly have no idea why there was little interest on the few I've seen sell. Prices have remained in the $5/1000 range give or take $1 either direction for the last year. There are swings either way but that has been the average I've been tracking for a few years. We have a thread on this here at Tug if anyone wants to go back and look at the history.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/jump-in-resale-prices.250700/


----------



## scootr5

happyhopian said:


> The last couple of smokey sales have been depressed. I think because of all the media attention surrouding the fires though I truly have no idea why there was little interest on the few I've seen sell. Prices have remained in the $5/1000 range give or take $1 either direction for the last year. There are swings either way but that has been the average I've been tracking for a few years. We have a thread on this here at Tug if anyone wants to go back and look at the history.
> 
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/jump-in-resale-prices.250700/



 Not to be rude, but can we take the discussion of the effect on resale prices to one of the other couple of threads discussing that and keep this one discussing the changes themselves?

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...s-due-to-wyndham-changes.254768/#post-1996206

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/jump-in-resale-prices.250700/


----------



## happyhopian

wjappraise said:


> That is partially true, but every day buyers think they got a "great deal," despite some being savvy enough to find this site.  And some will argue with the experienced posters here and keep their deal that is so good they claim it "screws current Wyndham owners."  And don't you think these changes will impact even resale purchases?  I do.  And at least for the time being, the market supports my assertion (see prior posts about declining resale values).  So it is not nonsense.  Just an opinion you don't share.



There is ZERO downward movement in the prices over the weekend after the wyndham announcement. That doesn mean there will not be but there isn't as of now. As many know I've been tracking CWA resales for two years. I just ran the weekend CWA sales on ebay and the number are exactly inline and in several cases much higher than the last year's average. Larger contracts generally sell for less per 1k with smaller contracts selling for more $$ per 1k (similar with square footage sales prices on homes).

To those who are buying I like what Ron said earlier (and it is my buying strategy too) bid what you are willing to pay, win some, lose some but never over pay. I bid $3/1000 on every one. I rarely bid more and I've never bid over $4. I've missed a lot but I've won enough to get 3 million points at an average around $3/1k.

Here are the auctions that closed this weekend and today (only annual CWA which I've been tracking)

105,000 $740 $7.04/1k http://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-CLU...370997?hash=item489bca49f5:g:bi0AAOSw4A5YzCZU

805,000 $4,431 $5.50/1k (incl closing) http://www.ebay.com/itm/WYNDHAM-CLUB-ACCESS-805-000-ANNUAL-POINTS-TIMESHARE-FOR-SALE-/332163948412?hash=item4d56839f7c:g:-SUAAOSwdzVXtO-7&nma=true&si=0QtLb1O6zlp1SzJzvl8EcZ1NpyY%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

154,000 $760 $4.93/1k http://www.ebay.com/itm/154-000-CLU...638823?hash=item41c25b51a7:g:qTYAAOSwpkFY5S3Q

413,000 $2,551 $6,17/1k (incl fee) http://www.ebay.com/itm/413-000-Club-Wyndham-Access-Points-Club-Wyndham-Access-SV66399-51867-/272627242967?hash=item3f79d997d7:g:GHwAAOSw44BYK1XH&nma=true&si=0QtLb1O6zlp1SzJzvl8EcZ1NpyY%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

1,000,000 $4,325 (incl fee) $4.32/1k http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-000-000-C...177320?hash=item5b36309468:g:7R0AAOSwe7BW1Ig8


Feel free to review and please post anything I didn't see or corrections. I want us all to be well informed and help each other to NEVER over pay


----------



## Lita

Finally got an answer from Wyndham non-customer service.  That is at the bottom of my reply to the non-customer service person.  I copied my answer to the non-customer service person to Franz Hanning, Jan Wigington and John Monaweck.  The one to Hanning was returned.  If anyone knows the proper email I would appreciate the info.  Here is the exchange regarding the guest pass change:


*From: *Lita Epstein <lita@litaepstein.com>
*Date: *Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 4:34 PM
*To: *"Kochinsky, Shea Lyn" <Shea.Kochinsky@wyn.com>
*Cc: *<franz.hanning@wyn.com>, <jan.wigington@wyn.com>, <john.monaweck@wyn.com>
*Subject: *Re: Wyndham Vacation Ownership


This is BULL.  You have made me a second-class Platinum member because I don’t have enough multiple owners on my membership.



You’ve changed the provisions of my contract and taken away a significant VIP membership benefit – the benefit for which I built my membership.  I will now have to waste at least ½ of my guest passes for family vacations and possible as many as three per vacation per unit.  One at the time of booking, one when we finally figure out which of my 35 family members will be able to make time given the dates I’ve booked and possibly a third when someone has to cancel at the last minute because of a last  minute work or family commitment and I have to find a replacement.



If you truly have not intended to screw Platinum members who have fewer people on as owners, you should decide what is a standard Platinum membership.  For example, suppose you decide that four is the most common number of owners on a Platinum membership.  Those of us with less than four should get a designation, such as family vacation pass, that we can use to hold units without wasting a guest pass.  So in my case, since it is me with one other co-owner, to even up the benefit I would get two family vacation designations.



Right now with the new rules on 48-hour guest pass requirements, I’m screwed.  I have a family of about 35 people.  I make plans for a family vacation often about 6 months in advance when I can get enough units in one location at one time.  Then I send out notice to family members and see who is interested in coming.  Sometimes no one can come, sometimes more than I have rooms for can come.  With the new requirements, I have to waste guest passes just to hold the time and find out who is interested.  I then put in names when they are final – maybe about a month before the final trip. Often one person can’t make it at the last minute because of a job conflict.  Sometimes I’ll cancel – likely wasting two guest passes for nothing and sometimes I can change the reservation. In that case I could end of using three guest passes for one reservation – at booking, at time of vacation commitment and at emergency change date.



What I have been doing is booking the rooms without a guest reservation and then finalizing them after I’ve done upgrades or changes and I’m about 30 days out.  Less chance of a change.  Right now I only have to use one guest pass for each reservation.



You haven’t even mentioned what will happen if I book a one bedroom 6 months out and am able to upgrade to a two bedroom.  If that happens in the current system I would have to waste a second guest certificate to take advantage of the upgrade.  I’ve refused upgrades to some family members because I didn’t have a guest pass to waste.



Lita



*From: *"Kochinsky, Shea Lyn" <Shea.Kochinsky@wyn.com>
*Date: *Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 3:50 PM
*To: *Lita Epstein <lita@litaepstein.com>
*Subject: *Wyndham Vacation Ownership


Good Afternoon Mrs. Epstein,



Thank you for contacting Wyndham Vacation Ownership. Listening to comments from our owners and guests is an important part of our ability to enhance the service we provide.



We appreciate that Wyndham Vacation Ownership resorts are used as gathering spots for our owner’s families and we want those reunions to continue. While you may not know the names of every family member who will be traveling to your reunion, you can certainly use those who have committed to the date before booking rooms or other owners on your membership who will be attending. Only one name is required per reservation.




Make it a great day,



*Ms. Shea-Lyn Kochinsky*
Wyndham Vacation Ownership

Owner Care Case Specialist

6277 Sea Harbor Drive

Orlando, FL 32821

Phone  ~ 800~251~8736, option 1, option 1

Fax     ~ 407~626~6328

shea.kochinsky@wyn.com


----------



## vacationhopeful

Canned response with canned auto-fill ... by a low paid clerk or computer program.

I bet the "snake-face" executive will get a BIG bonus on the new revenue stream she/he created ... while the OWNERS who pay their salary WANT to burn them at the stake.

Time to truly reconsider my ownership .... I can't print money as fast as they announce new ways to generate fees to collect DOLLARS from me.


----------



## Lita

vacationhopeful said:


> Canned response with canned auto-fill ... by a low paid clerk or computer program.
> 
> I bet the "snake-face" executive will get a BIG bonus on the new revenue stream she/he created ... while the OWNERS who pay their salary WANT to burn them at the stake.
> 
> Time to truly reconsider my ownership .... I can't print money as fast as they announce new ways to generate fees to collect DOLLARS from me.



Agree.  It took them several days to even put together the canned response. Obviously they have gotten a lot of complaints and didn't expect them so they had to try to come up with a usable answer.


----------



## Iggyearl

Lita, FWIW, the new head of Wyndham timeshare division is a Michael Brown, who was just hired to replace Franz Hanning.  He was formerly COO of HGV.  He is brand new, so he would probably appreciate some owner feedback. Or maybe not.


----------



## ronparise

Iggyearl said:


> Lita, FWIW, the new head of Wyndham timeshare division is a Michael Brown, who was just hired to replace Franz Hanning.  He was formerly COO of HGV.  He is brand new, so he would probably appreciate some owner feedback. Or maybe not.


You beat me to it

Franz dosent work at Wyn anymore


----------



## ronparise

vacationhopeful said:


> Canned response with canned auto-fill ... by a low paid clerk or computer program.
> 
> I bet the "snake-face" executive will get a BIG bonus on the new revenue stream she/he created ... while the OWNERS who pay their salary WANT to burn them at the stake.
> 
> Time to truly reconsider my ownership .... I can't print money as fast as they announce new ways to generate fees to collect DOLLARS from me.




There is no new revenue for Wyndham in these changes


----------



## wjappraise

Lita said:


> This is BULL.  You have made me a second-class Platinum member because I don’t have enough multiple owners on my membership.
> 
> 
> 
> You’ve changed the provisions of my contract and taken away a significant VIP membership benefit – the benefit for which I built my membership.
> 
> 
> Right now with the new rules on 48-hour guest pass requirements, I’m screwed.  I have a family of about 35 people.  I make plans for a family vacation often about 6 months in advance when I can get enough units in one location.
> 
> 
> What I have been doing is booking the rooms without a guest reservation and then finalizing them after I’ve done upgrades or changes and I’m about 30 days out.  Less chance of a change.  Right now I only have to use one guest pass for each [/EMAIL]



This is a perfect example of the horrible ways that Wyndham proceeds. Lita is one of thousands of Platinum owners who will be collateral damage in Wyndham's efforts to reign in what their sales staff taught many owners.  If they would only reach out to their owners for input PRIOR to their heavy handed measures, they might get great advice.  But no, they are far too arrogant to recognize their ignorance.  


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## uscav8r

ronparise said:


> There is no new revenue for Wyndham in these changes



I'm not so sure about that, Ron. They've certainly increased the chances owners will pay more in reservation transaction fees if the per-day rule has gone away (which seems to be the case as the excess RT fee dropped to $19). 

They've made it so people who book multiple units will have to burn through their GCs faster. That might not affect the Platinum owner with 30-45 GCs, but it will hurt lesser VIP and regular owners who have more guest usage than is the norm. 

While these may not be huge profit centers, they do increase revenue for Wyndham to some extent. 


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## ronparise

uscav8r said:


> I'm not so sure about that, Ron. They've certainly increased the chances owners will pay more in reservation transaction fees if the per-day rule has gone away (which seems to be the case as the excess RT fee dropped to $19).
> 
> They've made it so people who book multiple units will have to burn through their GCs faster. That might not affect the Platinum owner with 30-45 GCs, but it will hurt lesser VIP and regular owners who have more guest usage than is the norm.
> 
> While these may not be huge profit centers, they do increase revenue for Wyndham to some extent.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




The fees go to the trust,  The fees are not Wyndham profit centers  >> No doubt the management fee will go up a bit because of these fees, but the real beneficiaries are the members, The increased revenue to the trust will serve to keep the program fee from increasing as much as it otherwise would.


----------



## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> The fees go to the trust,  The fees are not Wyndham profit centers  >> No doubt the management fee will go up a bit because of these fees, but the real beneficiaries are the members, The increased revenue to the trust will serve to keep the program fee from increasing as much as it otherwise would.



Ron.  That is different from what the suspension attorney told me.  The guest fees are Wyndham's.   Not the trust's.  According to him.  They sure act like they are Wyndham's don't they?  


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## am1

No matter who actually gets what Wyndham is getting a lot of the fees.

May be directly or as part of their management fees.


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## ronparise

wjappraise said:


> Ron.  That is different from what the suspension attorney told me.  The guest fees are Wyndham's.   Not the trust's.  According to him.  They sure act like they are Wyndham's don't they?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Im remembering this from Peter Hernandez's presentation at the last couple of annual meetings


----------



## CO skier

Lita said:


> *From: *Lita Epstein <lita@litaepstein.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 4:34 PM
> *To: *"Kochinsky, Shea Lyn" <Shea.Kochinsky@wyn.com>
> *Cc: *<franz.hanning@wyn.com>, <jan.wigington@wyn.com>, <john.monaweck@wyn.com>
> *Subject: *Re: Wyndham Vacation Ownership
> 
> 
> This is BULL.  You have made me a second-class Platinum member because I don’t have enough multiple owners on my membership.


I do not understand your reasoning.  Multiple owners would have to commit to the vacation and be designated for check-in months ahead and show up to check-in, just as your family/guest would.

You would have to pay a guest fee, today before the changes, because your family/guest is not an owner.  This is the same after the changes.

I understand how things may have changed versus the timeframe for assigning a guest name, but your situation is no different than an owner with multiple owners listed on the account, other than a Guest Certificate is not require for the other owners on the account.




Lita said:


> *From: *Lita Epstein <lita@litaepstein.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 4:34 PM
> *To: *"Kochinsky, Shea Lyn" <Shea.Kochinsky@wyn.com>
> *Cc: *<franz.hanning@wyn.com>, <jan.wigington@wyn.com>, <john.monaweck@wyn.com>
> *Subject: *Re: Wyndham Vacation Ownership
> 
> We appreciate that Wyndham Vacation Ownership resorts are used as gathering spots for our owner’s families and we want those reunions to continue. While you may not know the names of every family member who will be traveling to your reunion, you can certainly use those who have committed to the date before booking rooms or other owners on your membership who will be attending. Only one name is required per reservation.



I agree with Ms. Kochinsky.  You state that 35 family members might attend the reunion.  If you cannot find 3 or 4 adults (or however many are needed for the number of units you need) out of that group of 35 who can commit to attending and having their name designated as the check-in guest when you make the reservation, that is not Wyndham's problem, that is _your_ problem.


----------



## Railman83

CO skier said:


> I do not understand your reasoning.  Multiple owners would have to commit to the vacation and be designated for check-in months ahead and show up to check-in, just as your family/guest would.
> 
> You would have to pay a guest fee, today before the changes, because your family/guest is not an owner.  This is the same after the changes.
> 
> I understand how things may have changed versus the timeframe for assigning a guest name, but your situation is no different than an owner with multiple owners listed on the account, other than a Guest Certificate is not require for the other owners on the account.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with Ms. Kochinsky.  You state that 35 family members might attend the reunion.  If you cannot find 3 or 4 adults (or however many are needed for the number of units you need) out of that group of 35 who can commit to attending and having their name designated as the check-in guest when you make the reservation, that is not Wyndham's problem, that is _your_ problem.



This just got real!


----------



## CO skier

Railman83 said:


> This just got real!


The same thing happened when Wyndham/WorldMark made some Guideline modifications that were directed toward the megarenter problem, but affected non-megarenters, too.

Owners could only see how it affected how they used the Club, and could not look beyond that to how the Club was improved for all owners


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## Lita

CO skier said:


> I do not understand your reasoning.  Multiple owners would have to commit to the vacation and be designated for check-in months ahead and show up to check-in, just as your family/guest would.
> 
> You would have to pay a guest fee, today before the changes, because your family/guest is not an owner.  This is the same after the changes.
> 
> I understand how things may have changed versus the timeframe for assigning a guest name, but your situation is no different than an owner with multiple owners listed on the account, other than a Guest Certificate is not require for the other owners on the account.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with Ms. Kochinsky.  You state that 35 family members might attend the reunion.  If you cannot find 3 or 4 adults (or however many are needed for the number of units you need) out of that group of 35 who can commit to attending and having their name designated as the check-in guest when you make the reservation, that is not Wyndham's problem, that is _your_ problem.



Clearly you missed what I said.  I put a hold on units now - not having to use any guest passes because guest passes are not needed within 48 hours of booking.  I can determine my final guest list closer to the time of the actual use of the unit.

That ability has now been tossed out of the window under the new rules requiring the use of guest pass within 48 hours.  It's a loss of use of guest passes if I must put names in before I've even had time to contact family members and see what fits in their schedule.  if I want to plan a family vacation needing more than two units - one which I will book with my name and one with my co-owner - I must waste guest passes.

This won't matter to someone who has four or five members as co-owners, but with fewer co-owners I have less options.  It means I have to place names in with the hopes they can go. Someone with more co-owners can do that without a guest pass.

Therefore, those of use with fewer co-owners will have less flexibility to plan large family gatherings without possibly wasting guess passes.  So those who have only one or two co-owners have a lower grade of membership with fewer guess passes if they must waste some just to hold a few units until they can work out the final guest list.

Why should I have to waste guest passes when someone else does not?

If they want to limit owners access to the number of units owners can book by requiring guest passes within 48 hours - then make it a system where all members are treated equally.  Not a system where your benefits are based on the number of co-owners you can put on a reservation to hold it for family gatherings in the future.

Lita


----------



## CO skier

Lita said:


> This won't matter to someone who has four or five members as co-owners, but with fewer co-owners I have less options.


Clearly, you do not understand that designating a co-owner within 48 hours is no different than adding a guest name within 48 hours.

If I understand the new rules correctly, an owner cannot hold overlapping reservations under their name beyond 48 hours (overlapping reservations in the same name are cancelled after 48 hours), then change to another co-owner after 48 hours beyond the reservation.  Changing the name to another co-owner after 48 hours would require the $100 change fee, just as it would with a change to a guest name.

Or am I wrong?


----------



## Sandy VDH

So it might be a reason to pick up some resale points and putting additional names to the contract so that they show up on your list of owner names.


----------



## CO skier

I just re-read the new Guest Confirmation policy.


"When booking more than one unit with dates that

overlap within the same period within 48 hours of

check-in, a Guest Confirmation must be added at the

time of booking. *If you do not have the required guest

information, the reservation cannot be booked*."


In light of other posts about "confusing, imprecise language" and "we should have seen this coming", does the bolded part imply that changes to guest names will no longer be allowed?  That is, the changed guest name was not available when the reservation was made, so the reservation could not have been made for the new guest name.


----------



## breezez

ronparise said:


> There is no new revenue for Wyndham in these changes


More GC's to sell!


----------



## ronparise

breezez said:


> More GC's to sell!


the guest confirm fee dosen't go to Wyndham


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## wjappraise

CO skier said:


> I do not understand your reasoning.  Multiple owners would have to commit to the vacation and be designated for check-in months ahead and show up to check-in, just as your family/guest would.
> 
> I agree with Ms. Kochinsky.  You state that 35 family members might attend the reunion.  If you cannot find 3 or 4 adults (or however many are needed for the number of units you need) out of that group of 35 who can commit to attending and having their name designated as the check-in guest when you make the reservation, that is not Wyndham's problem, that is _your_ problem.



Do you work for Wyndham?  Because it looks like you are thinking like them.  Lita now has to alter how she books her family vacations. And she is typical of many Platinum owners.  Right now she books a block of rooms (less than 10) and probably uses all of her points.  Then as the the trip draws close she assigns the rooms once family members fully commit. 

COSkier, if you have never booked rooms for a family reunion you clearly would not understand that a large group always has cancellations and alterations.  So don't make your lack of knowledge Lita's "problem."   She is deeply impacted in a negative way by the changes and is clearly irritated by this. 

Have some empathy.  Take this on for size, and see if it engenders some fellow feeling in you:  Suppose Wyndham analyzed the repairs needed at various resorts and identified "skiers" as one who routinely provide more wear and tear on the units, so they decided that "skiers" could no longer reserve units in Colorado.  Those of us who do not ski would think "great, less maintenance on the units and our MFs go down, plus less competition to get the nice units we want while we go "snowboarding" not "skiing."  Would you be concerned over this arbitrary rule change than negatively impacted you?  Or would you think, "Clearly Wyndham has the greater good of all at heart and I should thank them for removing this right of use from my purchased ownership"?  Start thinking of others, man.  



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## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> the guest confirm fee dosen't go to Wyndham



I think it does go to Wyndham.  


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## paxsarah

CO skier said:


> Clearly, you do not understand that designating a co-owner within 48 hours is no different than adding a guest name within 48 hours.



The difference is clear to me and I've never even planned this kind of trip - initially designating a co-owner doesn't burn a guest confirmation. I'm sure OP expects to need to use GCs once she's confirmed her guests, but the new system will force her to use GCs up front simply to hold the reservation, and if she hasn't guessed right on who'll be coming, she'll burn a second GC later on to get it right. And it does seem somewhat arbitrary that if she simply had a couple more co-owners on the account (e.g. adult children as many do) she could use those names upfront to make the reservation, then change it to the correct person later, using only the single expected GC per unit.



CO skier said:


> I just re-read the new Guest Confirmation policy.
> 
> "When booking more than one unit with dates that
> 
> overlap within the same period within 48 hours of
> 
> check-in, a Guest Confirmation must be added at the
> 
> time of booking. *If you do not have the required guest
> 
> information, the reservation cannot be booked*."
> 
> 
> In light of other posts about "confusing, imprecise language" and "we should have seen this coming", does the bolded part imply that changes to guest names will no longer be allowed?  That is, the changed guest name was not available when the reservation was made, so the reservation could not have been made for the new guest name.



No. This refers only to reservations made inside of 48 hours to check-in. On advance reservations, you have 48 hours to add the GC, but closer than 48 hours to check-in, you need to add the GC/name at the time of reservation if you're booking an overlapping reservation. I presume that if you wanted, after confirming that reservation you could still even change it at the cost of another GC, but hopefully if you're booking something less than 48 hours in advance you'll know the name.


----------



## seascapemvy

Sandy VDH said:


> I have done a saturday with a throw away sunday, with no plans to say overnight, just to leave at the end of the day and not have such an early checkout.  At least Sunday is midweek night, so that helps with saving points.


I always book the extra day so I can leave in the evening.  I just booked in Orlando for November 17 and 18.  My wife wanted to enjoy Dapper Dan day at the Magic Kingdom on out way to SW Florida.  We will enjoy tge day and then leave late as its only a 3.5 hour drive.


----------



## ilya

[. And it does seem somewhat arbitrary that if she simply had a couple more co-owners on the account (e.g. adult children as many do) she could use those names upfront to make the reservation, then change it to the correct person later, using only the single expected GC per unit.



What is the best way to add co-owners to an account.


----------



## seascapemvy

I am a small owner 240,000 points who purchased to use for  weekend travel.  I love Wyndham and find it goes well with my DVC ownership.  I also find some issues with the new plan, especially  the credit pool.  If they really want you to assign the points to one year  they should  change the pooling system to how DVC does it.  Let everyone pool their points up to 6 months before the end of the use year for free.  Also let everyone  borrow from the next year, but require the owner to pay the dues on them.


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> the guest confirm fee dosen't go to Wyndham


who do you think it goes to. I was told an annual meeting a while back that Wyndham was in control of the fee. This was in response to a question about the rule change from years back on VIP. Are you saying that the funds do not go to wyndham that would be very interesting because if it goes back to the POA of the resort I'm not seeing it anywhere.


----------



## ronparise

Sandy VDH said:


> So it might be a reason to pick up some resale points and putting additional names to the contract so that they show up on your list of owner names.



Or just take one of the deeds she owns, prepare a new deed with a few new names and pay wyndhams transfer fee


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> Or just take one of the deeds she owns, prepare a new deed with a few new names and pat wyndhams transfer fee


There is no cost for adding family members. Just call title and tell them you have a family transfer. There is a special department for this but I don't have that number. I know the stipulation is that they must be immediate family but there is no cost to add them or fully transfer to them.


----------



## ilya

happyhopian said:


> There is no cost for adding family members. Just call title and tell them you have a family transfer. There is a special department for this but I don't have that number. I know the stipulation is that they must be immediate family but there is no cost to add them or fully transfer to them.




How old do the kids have to be? And this would include father as immediate family?


----------



## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> who do you think it goes to. I was told an annual meeting a while back that Wyndham was in control of the fee. This was in response to a question about the rule change from years back on VIP. Are you saying that the funds do not go to wyndham that would be very interesting because if it goes back to the POA of the resort I'm not seeing it anywhere.



It neither goes to Wyndham or to the resort. It goes to the club (fairshare trust)

Remember that thing called the program fee. That's what we all pay to run our club. The program fee is the biggest part of the clubs income but there are other things too. Things like housekeeping, and transaction fees and interest and yes. Guest confirmations too


----------



## ronparise

seascapemvy said:


> I am a small owner 240,000 points who purchased to use for  weekend travel.  I love Wyndham and find it goes well with my DVC ownership.  I also find some issues with the new plan, especially  the credit pool.  If they really want you to assign the points to one year  they should  change the pooling system to how DVC does it.  Let everyone pool their points up to 6 months before the end of the use year for free.  Also let everyone  borrow from the next year, but require the owner to pay the dues on them.




Borrowing is already a thing, as is renting points.  The credit pool was meant to allow us "save" points for the future.. Now, thats what it does


----------



## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> There is no cost for adding family members. Just call title and tell them you have a family transfer. There is a special department for this but I don't have that number. I know the stipulation is that they must be immediate family but there is no cost to add them or fully transfer to them.



even better  My point was that it was easy and cheap to effect a transfer...turns out its even cheaper than I thought


----------



## ilya

ronparise said:


> even better  My point was that it was easy and cheap to effect a transfer...turns out its even cheaper than I thought




Do you know the cost to add a family member (father) and procedure. At what age can you add your kids?


----------



## seascapemvy

ronparise said:


> Borrowing is already a thing, as is renting points.  The credit pool was meant to allow us "save" points for the future.. Now, thats what it does


But you can only borrow for a reservation with 60 days or a partial day at 10 months.  As for banking or pooling for most owners it must be done prior to the start of the year and I think based on all the changes they should change that.


----------



## Jan M.

CO skier said:


> Clearly, you do not understand that designating a co-owner within 48 hours is no different than adding a guest name within 48 hours.
> 
> If I understand the new rules correctly, an owner cannot hold overlapping reservations under their name beyond 48 hours (overlapping reservations in the same name are cancelled after 48 hours), then change to another co-owner after 48 hours beyond the reservation.  Changing the name to another co-owner after 48 hours would require the $100 change fee, just as it would with a change to a guest name.
> 
> Or am I wrong?



Yes you are wrong. It doesn't cost anything to change a reservation from one co-owner to another. At the time of booking you can select which co-owner you want on a reservation. Currently you have to call in to change it to a different co-owner but maybe that will change with the new system.

Having more than one owner on an account is very helpful when you are moving resorts. Say we are staying in Bonnet Creek checking out today and moving to Ocean Walk. I would have booked an overlapping reservation under the other one of us starting yesterday at Ocean Walk so when we get there we can get right into our unit. Week nights are usually not many points to book and since we live in Florida when we stay at one of the Florida resorts we are driving and have a fair amount of food that needs refrigerating. So all I have to worry about is keeping stuff cold/frozen on the drive from Bonnet Creek to Ocean Walk. VIP get early check in 2pm but you will still have 4 hours from the 10am check out time and there is absolutely no guarantee that your unit will be ready by 2pm. We have even had to wait past 4pm upon occasion so we use a few points and save ourselves the headache.

I know the resorts have refrigerators that you can put stuff in but at the big resorts do they really have enough refrigerators to handle a lot of people? The resorts always tell you that if you have to move units not to worry as they will store all your stuff for you. One time when we were flying in and had a lot of time before the 2pm early check in we stopped to pick up a few breakfast and lunch things to kill some time until check in. At 2pm our unit wasn't ready so we separated the few things that needed refrigeration into just a single plastic bag and asked for it to be stored in the refrigerator until our unit was ready. The desk person took it in the back and came right back out so we knew they hadn't put our stuff in the refrigerator. We asked and were told that someone else would take care of that as there was other stuff sitting back there to be put away. That was a time that our unit wasn't ready until 4:15. After that My husband and I said never again as we had no idea how long our stuff sat out.


----------



## Jan M.

ilya said:


> Do you know the cost to add a family member (father) and procedure. At what age can you add your kids?



They have to be 21 to be on the deed.


----------



## ronparise

*The more things change; The more they stay the same*

 for any one that wants a little historical perspective I suggest you search TUG for Kendra Bowers.  I was up way past my bedtime reading her posts after the last big set of anti megarenter changes.   You could also read Bill Spearmans article in "Timesharing Today  http://www.tstoday.com/members/magazine/issue104/wyndham comments.pdf



As near as I can piece it together, the short story is that they were both megarenters leading up to the changes Wyndham made in 2009.  Transaction fees were introduced, Guest fees were introduced at $29 then almost immediately raised to $99, and no more owner to owner transfer of points   

Owners were outraged and some, including both Bowers and Spearman sued Wyndham..  Secondary market prices dropped to zero. some mega renters couldnt adapt and dropped out,  rumor has it that Kendra got bought out (some would say got paid off) and the Spearman suit continues... Life goes on

So what what else happened..  Secondary market prices went to zero (maybe because of the rule changes, maybe because of the great recession)  Some new owners saw opportunity and built even bigger megarenting businesses, and we saw the rise of the points managers. 

and now Wyndham has introduced another round of changes.  My guess is that some of us will sue, and some be sued, and some will sell out but as before there will be some that see opportunity in the chaos and figure out how to turn that opportunity into success.


----------



## Braindead

ronparise said:


> The fees go to the trust,  The fees are not Wyndham profit centers  >> No doubt the management fee will go up a bit because of these fees, but the real beneficiaries are the members, The increased revenue to the trust will serve to keep the program fee from increasing as much as it otherwise would.


If you have developer and resale points. Do you pay .57 program fee on all points or .57 on developer points and .55 on resale points ?


----------



## ronparise

Jan M. said:


> They have to be 21 to be on the deed.




Thats not true.. They have to be 21 to check in  but anyone at any age can be on the deed (even my dog)

You can even get another owner on the account by making a small change on the deed but not changing ownership... I had an account with over 10 names in the "other owner" dropdown

Ronald J Parise
Ron J Parise
RJ Parise
R John Parise
Ronald John Parise
Ron John Parise

etc etc


----------



## ronparise

Braindead said:


> If you have developer and resale points. Do you pay .57 program fee on all points or .57 on developer points and .55 on resale points ?


57 on all


----------



## Braindead

ronparise said:


> 57 on all


Thanks

Just checking on Wyndham. I'm being charged .57 on all


----------



## ilya

ronparise said:


> Thats not true.. They have to be 21 to check in  but anyone at any age can be on the deed (even my dog)
> 
> You can even get another owner on the account by making a small change on the deed but not changing ownership... I had an account with over 10 names in the "other owner" dropdown
> 
> Ronald J Parise
> Ron J Parise
> RJ Parise
> R John Parise
> Ronald John Parise
> Ron John Parise
> 
> etc etc



Ron, will all those owner names  work as separate owners? I can add my 2 teenagers?


----------



## ronparise

ilya said:


> Ron, will all those owner names  work as separate owners? I can add my 2 teenagers?


those different names worked for me


----------



## ronparise

Lita said:


> This also means the person will be responsible for maintenance fees if at some point in the future I can't pay or I am dead.  I won't do that to any family member unless they want this responsibility.  I can guarantee you that after my death, Wyndham will chase and harrass the member or members I add to one deed for the full membership costs.



Sure; but you will save the $99 fees you are bitching about

I take a different approach  than many  when it comes to rule changes. 

 I take a look at the new rules and the effect they have on me and my family and then figure out how to work within my new reality. Maybe I have to make some changes, and maybe not, Maybe its gonna cost me some money, and maybe its gonna coat me some time. or maybe not. No matter what I adapt to Wyndham rather than expecting wyndham to adapt to me.


----------



## Jan M.

I can sympathize with trying to plan family vacations with a large number of people because we only have the one son and this is the fourth year I've tried to plan a stay using my ARP at Glacier Canyon for him and his family. The first year I booked the week of our granddaughter's birthday which is the week before my DIL starts back for the new school year. My DIL got a job at a different school and they needed that week to move and for her to get her new classroom set up. The second year my son changed jobs and didn't have the vacation time. By the third year I was down to only booking 5 nights but they had our second granddaughter in June so not interested in going with a new baby. This year I only booked 4 week nights so I didn't tie nearly as many points. I have vowed that if they screw this one up my husband and I are going to fly from Florida to Cleveland, OH to get the older granddaughter to take her to Glacier Canyon for her 6th birthday. We will fly into either Chicago or Madison and rent a car to drive the rest of the way. In the past I've always had enough notice from them to cancel the reservation more than 30 days out but this time I'm not giving up that reservation. The first couple of years it irritated me that I used my ARP for a reservation that I ended up cancelling and then ended up with all those cancelled points with the restrictions on them at the time.

But as much as I sympathize I do understand that owners who tie up as many as 10 units at the favored resorts in prime weeks are seen by Wyndham as abusing the system and hurting other owners, even other VIP owners. I'm guessing that Wyndham has very little sympathy and one of the big reasons is that if you are tying up 6-10 units they most likely see you as a mega rental or points manager rather than an individual planning a family vacation. Another reason is that they see you as hoarding reservation to get the discount and free upgrades when those windows open which they consider manipulating the inventory to your advantage instead of booking or upgrading what is available at that time which is how the system was intended to work if you read the directory as Ron and others have pointed out more than once. Your VIP benefits only entitle you to the discounts and upgrades on what is available in those windows. If you are hoarding reservations to manipulate the system to your benefit, no matter what the sales people have coached each and every one of us to do, Wyndham has the written guidelines on their side to say that is abusing your VIP benefits. BTW I don't like it one bit more than any other VIP owner but I'm smart enough to understand that Wyndham has the right to enforce those guidelines in any way they fit. They also have an obligation not to allow VIP owners to take unfair advantage they were never intended to have over the non VIP owners.

For every owner who ties up multiple units for family members who "might want to go", sometimes holding them clear down to the 15 day cancellation window, there are probably 10 if not 20 or more owners and point managers who rent doing the same thing. The other say 75% of the owners see all that inventory suddenly available that they couldn't get for their family vacations and now it is too late for them to be able to use it. These are the owners who have been telling Wyndham they are unhappy with their ownership and Wyndham listened. We big point VIP owners aren't very likely to be buying any more points directly from Wyndham, the smaller point owners are a better target for sales.

I'm sure the owners who wrote letters like the OP have provided Wyndham employees with a lot of laughs. The response letter basically stated, you have guest confirmations and that is what they are for so use them. Which translated means, suck it up buttercup, you had a good ride while it lasted but these changes are here to stay. Maybe OP who have owned longer than we have can point out any change to VIP benefits that Fairfield or Wyndham ever rescinded because owners complained. You can call me cynical or realistic but your efforts would be much better spent figuring out how you can adapt to be able to do what you want to do. Again Ron's words of wisdom and worth heeding.


----------



## Lita

ronparise said:


> those different names worked for me



Just called title services.  Anyone added to the title will be fully responsible for the account as an owner.

They charge $299 to change title, but if the title is a deeded unit then one must do the work to get the title changed and recorded before paying the $299 change fee with title services.  It's easier on a Club Wyndham Access account which doesn't have a recorded deed and all needed work can be done by Wyndham to add the names.

One must include the name, birthdate, and address.  So Ron, in your list of 10 variations of your name, did you have to give 10 different birth dates and 10 addresses?


----------



## 55plus

ronparise said:


> Thats not true.. They have to be 21 to check in  but anyone at any age can be on the deed (even my dog)
> 
> You can even get another owner on the account by making a small change on the deed but not changing ownership... I had an account with over 10 names in the "other owner" dropdown
> 
> Ronald J Parise
> Ron J Parise
> RJ Parise
> R John Parise
> Ronald John Parise
> Ron John Parise
> etc etc



Brilliant!


----------



## Jan M.

ronparise said:


> Thats not true.. They have to be 21 to check in  but anyone at any age can be on the deed (even my dog)
> 
> You can even get another owner on the account by making a small change on the deed but not changing ownership... I had an account with over 10 names in the "other owner" dropdown
> 
> Ronald J Parise
> Ron J Parise
> RJ Parise
> R John Parise
> Ronald John Parise
> Ron John Parise
> 
> etc etc



Thanks that is very good to know. Wyndham told us our son had to be 21 to be on our deed! More than once as we rolled over our points into a single contract when buying more points. And we had to pay $100 to have him added to our deed later as he wasn't yet 21. I wonder if that has changed in the almost 10 years since our son turned 21 or did the State be owned in make a difference? Do you know what if anything it costs to add a family member to your deed?


----------



## Jan M.

Lita said:


> Just called title services.  Anyone added to the title will be fully responsible for the account as an owner.
> 
> They charge $299 to change title, but if the title is a deeded unit then one must do the work to get the title changed and recorded before paying the $299 change fee with title services.  It's easier on a Club Wyndham Access account which doesn't have a recorded deed and all needed work can be done by Wyndham to add the names.
> 
> One must include the name, birthdate, and address.  So Ron, in your list of 10 variations of your name, did you have to give 10 different birth dates and 10 addresses?



Do you by any chance know if you have more than one deed or contract in your account and were to add a family member to just one of them, perhaps the smallest one, if that would make that person responsible for all the deeds and/or contracts in the account even if their name wasn't on them? I can't see how they would be liable on anything their name wasn't on. Doesn't mean I'm right, just that I can't see it.


----------



## Lita

Jan M. said:


> But as much as I sympathize I do understand that owners who tie up as many as 10 units at the favored resorts in prime weeks are seen by Wyndham as abusing the system and hurting other owners, even other VIP owners. I'm guessing that Wyndham has very little sympathy and one of the big reasons is that if you are tying up 6-10 units they most likely see you as a mega rental or points manager rather than an individual planning a family vacation. Another reason is that they see you as hoarding reservation to get the discount and free upgrades when those windows open which they consider manipulating the inventory to your advantage instead of booking or upgrading what is available at that time which is how the system was intended to work if you read the directory as Ron and others have pointed out more than once. Your VIP benefits only entitle you to the discounts and upgrades on what is available in those windows. If you are hoarding reservations to manipulate the system to your benefit, no matter what the sales people have coached each and every one of us to do, Wyndham has the written guidelines on their side to say that is abusing your VIP benefits. BTW I don't like it one bit more than any other VIP owner but I'm smart enough to understand that Wyndham has the right to enforce those guidelines in any way they fit. They also have an obligation not to allow VIP owners to take unfair advantage they were never intended to have over the non VIP owners.
> 
> For every owner who ties up multiple units for family members who "might want to go", sometimes holding them clear down to the 15 day cancellation window, there are probably 10 if not 20 or more owners and point managers who rent doing the same thing. .



So you no longer think it is important for family vacations to be a selling point for Wyndham ownership?  

I can guarantee you the mega renters will have ways around this new 48-hour guest pass rule.  It's only the owners who follow the rules and don't play games with family ownership names that will be screwed.


----------



## 55plus

Wyndham now charges $299 to make a change. Other costs would be having the deed changed and filed in the county when the timeshare is located. Wyndham would make a change unless the deed reflects a change.


----------



## Lita

Jan M. said:


> Do you by any chance know if you have more than one deed or contract in your account and were to add a family member to just one of them, perhaps the smallest one, if that would make that person responsible for all the deeds and/or contracts in the account even if their name wasn't on them? I can't see how they would be liable on anything their name wasn't on. Doesn't mean I'm right, just that I can't see it.



My understanding is you only need to add the person to one of the deeds, but if you trust Wyndham not to try to hold them liable on the rest of the membership, which they had rights to use as a co-owner, you may be naive.


----------



## ronparise

Lita said:


> Just called title services.  Anyone added to the title will be fully responsible for the account as an owner.
> 
> They charge $299 to change title, but if the title is a deeded unit then one must do the work to get the title changed and recorded before paying the $299 change fee with title services.  It's easier on a Club Wyndham Access account which doesn't have a recorded deed and all needed work can be done by Wyndham to add the names.
> 
> One must include the name, birthdate, and address.  So Ron, in your list of 10 variations of your name, did you have to give 10 different birth dates and 10 addresses?


No its all me, 

They may drill down  to figure that out, but they havent yet.  and if they do, who cares.. I have a VIP account with 30 guest confirms

I understand that wyndham says anyone on the account is responsible for the maintenance fees, but I would bet that they will have an issue collecting on anything that my kid dosent own.. It dosent matter because you are right I wouldnt want to put my kids through the hassle after Im gone.  

Bottom line is that there has been a change, you can either fight it or adapt to it... My preferred way, and my advice is to adapt


----------



## wjappraise

ronparise said:


> *The more things change; The more they stay the same*
> 
> for any one that wants a little historical perspective I suggest you search TUG for Kendra Bowers.  I was up way past my bedtime reading her posts after the last big set of anti megarenter changes.   You could also read Bill Spearmans article in "Timesharing Today  http://www.tstoday.com/members/magazine/issue104/wyndham comments.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> As near as I can piece it together, the short story is that they were both megarenters leading up to the changes Wyndham made in 2009.  Transaction fees were introduced, Guest fees were introduced at $29 then almost immediately raised to $99, and no more owner to owner transfer of points
> 
> Owners were outraged and some, including both Bowers and Spearman sued Wyndham..  Secondary market prices dropped to zero. some mega renters couldnt adapt and dropped out,  rumor has it that Kendra got bought out (some would say got paid off) and the Spearman suit continues... Life goes on
> 
> So what what else happened..  Secondary market prices went to zero (maybe because of the rule changes, maybe because of the great recession)  Some new owners saw opportunity and built even bigger megarenting businesses, and we saw the rise of the points managers.
> 
> and now Wyndham has introduced another round of changes.  My guess is that some of us will sue, and some be sued, and some will sell out but as before there will be some that see opportunity in the chaos and figure out how to turn that opportunity into success.



Exactly.  The points managers and large scale renters will thrive.  The Platinum owners who use their large amount of points for family reunions will be hurt the most.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jan M.

Lita said:


> So you no longer think it is important for family vacations to be a selling point for Wyndham ownership?
> 
> I can guarantee you the mega renters will have ways around this new 48-hour guest pass rule.  It's only the owners who follow the rules and don't play games with family ownership names that will be screwed.



I never said I liked the changes, just that I could see why they are going to happen. I think that probably 95%, if not more, of the owners will be just fine in being able to plan their family vacations. And there is an excellent chance that with these changes it will be easier for them to do that too.

As Ron has pointed out the mega renters and point managers will adapt and change by using the free guest certificates and pay for any others they need just as you will have to do. Also don't forget that Ron was suspended and reached a resolution with Wyndham that resulted in him managing other people's accounts rather than perhaps his own going forward. Don't you think things like that contributed to Wyndham basically kicking him out?

The only way I can figure out that Ron did what he did with the names is because he bought a huge number of deeds and contracts as he has told us in other threads and posts. He put different variations off his name on some of them. Any time you add an owner or transfer/buy a deed you always have to send a copy of your driver's license so I don't know how it would be possible to have variations of your own name on the same deed, just different deeds. There is not a single thing stopping you from taking over one of those deeds that owners are giving away, they are even paying the closing costs, and adding a variation of your own name and/or several family members to that deed. That would be the a cheaper solution.

As someone told me a few years back when I was very upset about something with Wyndham. You have two choices. 1. Put aside your "mad", be smart enough to accept what is not going to change and enjoy your stays at the resorts for hopefully many years to come. 2. Give up your ownership as your discontent will eat at you and you will spread your dissatisfaction to everyone traveling with you and the other owners you will encounter on their vacations as you will feel the need to share your story with them spoiling everyone's vacations.


----------



## antjmar

Lita said:


> Just called title services.  Anyone added to the title will be fully responsible for the account as an owner.
> 
> They charge $299 to change title, but if the title is a deeded unit then one must do the work to get the title changed and recorded before paying the $299 change fee with title services.  It's easier on a Club Wyndham Access account which doesn't have a recorded deed and all needed work can be done by Wyndham to add the names.
> 
> One must include the name, birthdate, and address.  So Ron, in your list of 10 variations of your name, did you have to give 10 different birth dates and 10 addresses?





Has anyone use the "Tribute program" to add (not transfer) family? It supposed to be FREE!!!


Ovation by Wyndham offers simple, safe and secure options to owners seeking to exit their timeshare. Tribute by Wyndham is the latest option available through this award-winning program.

This option enables qualified owners to transfer deeded and non-deeded contracts to a family member. Tribute by Wyndham ensures an owner’s legacy of vacation memories will continue on, allowing others to create travel traditions and experience all of the benefits of vacation ownership.

As with any exit option offered through Ovation by Wyndham, there are no fees, hidden costs or additional purchases required to participate in Tribute by Wyndham.

To learn more about Ovation by Wyndham, visit your owner website or call 855-312-9040 to speak with an Ovation by Wyndham representative.


----------



## ronparise

Jan M. said:


> As Ron has pointed out the mega renters and point managers will adapt and change by using the free guest certificates and pay for any others they need just as you will have to do.




theres a second part to what Ive said... They will either adapt *or* they will go away


----------



## Iggyearl

Ron's post about "change" made me reflect on this video from 8 YEARS ago.  This guy was very eloquent in his complaint about changes to the system.  I don't know if he stayed or moved on.  But Wyndham stock is up today and they just announced good earnings.


----------



## scootr5

antjmar said:


> Has anyone use the "Tribute program" to add (not transfer) family? It supposed to be FREE!!!
> 
> 
> Ovation by Wyndham offers simple, safe and secure options to owners seeking to exit their timeshare. Tribute by Wyndham is the latest option available through this award-winning program.
> 
> This option enables qualified owners to transfer deeded and non-deeded contracts to a family member. Tribute by Wyndham ensures an owner’s legacy of vacation memories will continue on, allowing others to create travel traditions and experience all of the benefits of vacation ownership.
> 
> As with any exit option offered through Ovation by Wyndham, there are no fees, hidden costs or additional purchases required to participate in Tribute by Wyndham.
> 
> To learn more about Ovation by Wyndham, visit your owner website or call 855-312-9040 to speak with an Ovation by Wyndham representative.



Free for "qualified" owners. Who decides if an owner is "qualified"? Wyndham, of course.


----------



## uscav8r

ilya said:


> Do you know the cost to add a family member (father) and procedure. At what age can you add your kids?



While you may get the $299 Wyndham transfer fee waived for family members, if you have deeded contracts, you'll need to pay someone to prepare and file the new deed... between $150-350 or so depending on the county where the deed is filed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uscav8r

seascapemvy said:


> But you can only borrow for a reservation with 60 days or a partial day at 10 months.  As for banking or pooling for most owners it must be done prior to the start of the year and I think based on all the changes they should change that.



You can borrow for more than 1 day inside the 90-day window (not 60), which defines the Express Reservation Period. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uscav8r

Braindead said:


> If you have developer and resale points. Do you pay .57 program fee on all points or .57 on developer points and .55 on resale points ?



You will pay that rate for all points. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rickandcindy23

So in a nutshell, how are these changes REALLY going to affect the various levels of ownership?  I am curious because I read the email and didn't think much about it, yet here is a long thread about the changes. 

I met Kendra Bowers once, talked to her on multiple occasions.  I also talked to William Spearman over the phone, way back when guest certificates were no longer unlimited for VIP Plat.  When Kendra lost her ability to make a good living as a Wyndham mega renter, she literally lost almost all of her income.  Kendra was a reasonable woman who had to give up her Colorado Springs home in the process of losing her income.  It was a very nice home in the hills by Manitou Springs, if I remember correctly.  Anyway, last I heard, she received a decent settlement from Wyndham and is living in timeshares full time to use her VIP points.  She can no longer talk about Wyndham to anyone because she has some rule imposed on her free speech, due to the settlement she received.  It's how it is, not something I am slamming Wyndham over.  

William Spearman, hmmmm...I thought settled his lawsuit.  I talked to him on the phone and he was also a very nice person, but angry about unlimited GC's being taken away.  He was disappointed that he couldn't get about 10 owners to join the lawsuit with him.  He needed a huge upfront fee for the attorney he selected.  I remember thinking it would be better to get about 20-30 people to help pay that fee.  But it was a long, long time ago, I would say this is about 9 years back.  

I understood that Spearman did settle because he also stopped talking to everyone.  If Wyndham decided to give him free guest certificates because his contract promised it, I would be inclined to be quiet as well.  I kind of wish we had joined that lawsuit.


----------



## bnoble

ronparise said:


> maybe because of the rule changes, maybe because of the great recession


I suspect the latter had a lot more to do with it than the former.


----------



## ronparise

rickandcindy23 said:


> So in a nutshell, how are these changes REALLY going to affect the various levels of ownership?  I am curious because I read the email and didn't think much about it, yet here is a long thread about the changes.
> 
> I met Kendra Bowers once, talked to her on multiple occasions.  I also talked to William Spearman over the phone, way back when guest certificates were no longer unlimited for VIP Plat.  When Kendra lost her ability to make a good living as a Wyndham mega renter, she literally lost almost all of her income.  Kendra was a reasonable woman who had to give up her Colorado Springs home in the process of losing her income.  It was a very nice home in the hills by Manitou Springs, if I remember correctly.  Anyway, last I heard, she received a decent settlement from Wyndham and is living in timeshares full time to use her VIP points.  She can no longer talk about Wyndham to anyone because she has some rule imposed on her free speech, due to the settlement she received.  It's how it is, not something I am slamming Wyndham over.
> 
> William Spearman, hmmmm...I thought settled his lawsuit.  I talked to him on the phone and he was also a very nice person, but angry about unlimited GC's being taken away.  He was disappointed that he couldn't get about 10 owners to join the lawsuit with him.  He needed a huge upfront fee for the attorney he selected.  I remember thinking it would be better to get about 20-30 people to help pay that fee.  But it was a long, long time ago, I would say this is about 9 years back.
> 
> I understood that Spearman did settle because he also stopped talking to everyone.  If Wyndham decided to give him free guest certificates because his contract promised it, I would be inclined to be quiet as well.  I kind of wish we had joined that lawsuit.




You are right about spearman. I found something that says they settled in July 2015

My point in bringing these two cases up is that Wyndham has been through this before. In fact the effort to level the playing field or the quest for fairness has  been pretty much continuous since 2009. 
Angry letters (or even nice letters), phone calls and lawsuits are not likely to change anything.


----------



## paxsarah

ronparise said:


> Angry letters (or even nice letters), phone calls and lawsuits are not likely to change anything.



I know, but I felt better putting pen to paper (or, toner to paper) and sending it off, knowing someone would probably at least read it before they put it in the circular file. (It was a nice letter, by the way.) Complaining here is cathartic but is even less like to make a difference to Wyndham. But at least I was able to say my piece, that I thought the playing field was flat enough before and now they've made one of the tools I use most often (credit pool) demonstrably less useful.

What I didn't mention to them is that if I can't figure out how best to use Points Deposit with my big odd-year points allotment, maybe I'll just book summer Myrtle Beach units and rent them out. Then I can use the proceeds to vacation when and how I want. I'll probably figure something else out by then, but at least that way I know the points won't go to waste.


----------



## dagger1

uscav8r said:


> While you may get the $299 Wyndham transfer fee waived for family members, if you have deeded contracts, you'll need to pay someone to prepare and file the new deed... between $150-350 or so depending on the county where the deed is filed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Dumb question, but do they normally waive the $299 transfer fee for family members, or is this on a case by case basis?  CWA contracts only require Wyndham to add names, correct, no new deeds or filing necessary?


----------



## seascapemvy

uscav8r said:


> You can borrow for more than 1 day inside the 90-day window (not 60), which defines the Express Reservation Period.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you for correcting me.  I still think 90 days out isn't enough but its better than 60.


----------



## wjappraise

Has anyone ever had Wyndham reach out to them to get a perspective on a policy change?  I keep reading in various successful business models the advisability of using your customers to plan your business direction.  It engenders trust and customer loyalty.  All of which it seems are in short supply with Wyndham.  Just curious if that has ever happened?


----------



## breezez

ronparise said:


> the guest confirm fee dosen't go to Wyndham




They may not get it directly but in the end they get it especially when they manage the HOA's in many of the resorts, cause they get to charge ridiculous costs to the HOA for services they provide.   Take the parking pass scam.   On the books they are providing you the guest a service the parking pass while they pressure scam you to go to update.  Normally these same people are the at concierge desk after check in. So I bet some of the HOA fees pay for these people.

To me I see it like a lot of charity's take money pay yourselves really well and give a small fraction to the cause people actually paid money for.    I personally don't see how having a guest in your unit is 1 cent additional in cost, in fact, it's doing them a favor by providing fresh meat to the sales vultures.

It's not a big deal to me...   I have only used one GC since I have owned, but I also understand they are controlling the HOA costs and can raise their costs by any amount they feel the market can bear simply by charging more for their services to the HOA


----------



## OutSkiing

My wife's name is listed 3 different ways in the Owner's dropdown, mine only 1 way.  Two of her's would be the same except one is all upper case and the other is upper/lower.  I haven't had occasion to test whether the upper/lower really works to hold multiple rooms.  I'm sure these names were all applied during various contract purchases.

I can think of one positive change that is likely due to negative owner feedback .. we all know it but nobody points out the positives. It was the elimination of 'canceled points' with their greatly reduced functionality.  When that was in place it was dreadful making reservations with ARP and then having to cancel because the nephew had final exams a week later than he thought.  Maybe complaints received now will not make a difference immediately, but they may add up to an improvement a year or two down the road.

I want more flexibility in pooling points forward more than once. There is no reason we should have to loose points because of changed plans or inaccurate planning.

Bob


----------



## happyhopian

Lita said:


> Just called title services.  Anyone added to the title will be fully responsible for the account as an owner.
> 
> They charge $299 to change title, but if the title is a deeded unit then one must do the work to get the title changed and recorded before paying the $299 change fee with title services.  It's easier on a Club Wyndham Access account which doesn't have a recorded deed and all needed work can be done by Wyndham to add the names.
> 
> One must include the name, birthdate, and address.  So Ron, in your list of 10 variations of your name, did you have to give 10 different birth dates and 10 addresses?


again - IF they are not family. I just added a family member two months ago on 8 contracts and there was NO fee. Must be immediate family.


----------



## happyhopian

OutSkiing said:


> My wife's name is listed 3 different ways in the Owner's dropdown, mine only 1 way.  Two of her's would be the same except one is all upper case and the other is upper/lower.  I haven't had occasion to test whether the upper/lower really works to hold multiple rooms.  I'm sure these names were all applied during various contract purchases.
> 
> I can think of one positive change that is likely due to negative owner feedback .. we all know it but nobody points out the positives. It was the elimination of 'canceled points' with their greatly reduced functionality.  When that was in place it was dreadful making reservations with ARP and then having to cancel because the nephew had final exams a week later than he thought.  Maybe complaints received now will not make a difference immediately, but they may add up to an improvement a year or two down the road.
> 
> I want more flexibility in pooling points forward more than once. There is no reason we should have to loose points because of changed plans or inaccurate planning.
> 
> Bob


I was tald cancelled points went away because the system couldn't keep up with where they came from and went back to due to another change.

I also have the misspelling problem and either work just fine for me so I have 'extra' people, who are the same people.


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## wed100105

OutSkiing said:


> My wife's name is listed 3 different ways in the Owner's dropdown, mine only 1 way.  Two of her's would be the same except one is all upper case and the other is upper/lower.  I haven't had occasion to test whether the upper/lower really works to hold multiple rooms.  I'm sure these names were all applied during various contract purchases.
> 
> I can think of one positive change that is likely due to negative owner feedback .. we all know it but nobody points out the positives. It was the elimination of 'canceled points' with their greatly reduced functionality.  When that was in place it was dreadful making reservations with ARP and then having to cancel because the nephew had final exams a week later than he thought.  Maybe complaints received now will not make a difference immediately, but they may add up to an improvement a year or two down the road.
> 
> I want more flexibility in pooling points forward more than once. There is no reason we should have to loose points because of changed plans or inaccurate planning.
> 
> Bob


 

I figured this out on my account today as well. My name is spelled and capitalized correctly on one, and then is listed again in all caps. I'm going to test it out once the system changes go live.


----------



## cayman01

You know, I think we might have just created some value for those 77k contracts on eBay. Buy one for a buck, put 10 family members on it as owner and add it to your Platinum account. You now just got around the 48 hour rule.


----------



## Braindead

I don't know how you could select the auto upgrade and keep your desired view at a lot of the resorts. If the view doesn't show up on the points chart with different point requirements. I doubt Wyndham reservations system will distinguish the different views from rooms requiring the same amount of points for the reservation.


----------



## scootr5

cayman01 said:


> You know, I think we might have just created some value for those 77k contracts on eBay. Buy one for a buck, put 10 family members on it as owner and add it to your Platinum account. You now just got around the 48 hour rule.



Of course, since Wyndham reads these boards repeated discussions of a loophole will eventually cause it to be closed...


----------



## ronparise

Braindead said:


> I don't know how you could select the auto upgrade and keep your desired view at a lot of the





Braindead said:


> I don't know how you could select the auto upgrade and keep your desired view at a lot of the resorts. If the view doesn't show up on the points chart with different point requirements. I doubt Wyndham reservations system will distinguish the different views from rooms requiring the same amount of points for the reservation.




If view is important or if you absolutely have to have the larger unit.. Dont check the check box


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## Bigrob

At some resorts units with upgraded views are different points cost. I believe an "upgrade view" option will exist but may only apply to resorts where the inventory is differentiated by points cost, such as beach resorts.


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## Braindead

Agree with both of you. For example Bonnet Creek the upgrade will give you an upgrade to a larger unit or Presidential but you might be looking at a parking ramp instead of the lake and fireworks


----------



## Larry M

Lita said:


> We appreciate that Wyndham Vacation Ownership resorts are used as gathering spots for our owner’s families and we want those reunions to continue. While you may not know the names of every family member who will be traveling to your reunion, you can certainly use those who have committed to the date before booking rooms or other owners on your membership who will be attending. Only one name is required per reservation.



Lita, I think you're missing the coded hint on how to game the new system here. What I think Shea-Lyn is telling you would work like this.

Suppose you decide you want to book six rooms for Week 40. You contact Alice, April, Angie, Betty, Bonnie, and Barbara. Alice's family includes Carol and Carly. April's family includes Candy and Cookie. Angie's family includes Charlotte and Catherine.

Alice, April, and Angie immediately commit. Betty, Bonnie, and Barbara aren't sure. So you book six rooms for Alice, April, and Angie, Carol, Candy, and Charlotte. Cancel rooms as needed, but don't change guest confirmations. Just tell your family what rooms to check into and exchange the keys later.


----------



## Larry M

Well, I never had a beef with Wyndham Guest Confirmations because I never needed to use them. What generated my ire was the way they whittled away at the Fairchild FAX (internal exchange) program. Initially it was free (or $10, can't remember) and every resort Fairchild had was eligible. Then the fees started going up every year and the number of eligible resorts started going down. After the number of resorts dropped from several hundred to less than 70, they stopped publishing the catalog and you had to fight to find out what was eligible. The price went to $99.

Then Wyndham had the chutzpah to send a letter informing owners that the program was being cancelled due to lack of use. That did it for me. I gave the deed back to HOA, described here and bought a deeded week at an independent time share where the HOA does its own management. (It happens to be on the grounds of a Wyndham resort with use of the Wyndham amenities.

Incidentally, I've let my son and his family use the deeded week for the last three years. This year, as usual, I called them, identified myself and said, "I'd like to let my son, Daniel M, and his family use the timeshare this year. What do I have to do?" and the response was "You've just done it." Works for me.


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## wed100105

Larry, our non-Wyndham Royal Dunes Resort week is the same way.I love it.


----------



## Ron2

Larry M said:


> Well, I never had a beef with Wyndham Guest Confirmations because I never needed to use them. What generated my ire was the way they whittled away at the Fairchild FAX (internal exchange) program. Initially it was free (or $10, can't remember) and every resort Fairchild had was eligible. Then the fees started going up every year and the number of eligible resorts started going down. After the number of resorts dropped from several hundred to less than 70, they stopped publishing the catalog and you had to fight to find out what was eligible. The price went to $99.
> 
> Then Wyndham had the chutzpah to send a letter informing owners that the program was being cancelled due to lack of use. That did it for me. I gave the deed back to HOA, described here and bought a deeded week at an independent time share where the HOA does its own management. (It happens to be on the grounds of a Wyndham resort with use of the Wyndham amenities.
> 
> Incidentally, I've let my son and his family use the deeded week for the last three years. This year, as usual, I called them, identified myself and said, "I'd like to let my son, Daniel M, and his family use the timeshare this year. What do I have to do?" and the response was "You've just done it." Works for me.



Larry – You’re confusing Wyndham (formerly Fairfield) with RCI. Wyndham has never had hundreds of timeshare resorts for internal exchanges. The current number of around 75 is the most there’s ever been.  The $99 fee that you mentioned was the RCI external exchange fee which has gone up. It’s great that you’re satisfied with your fixed week but if you want to exchange sometime in the future you’ll need to subscribe and pay the fees for either RCI or II.


----------



## chapjim

Bigrob said:


> At some resorts units with upgraded views are different points cost. I believe an "upgrade view" option will exist but may only apply to resorts where the inventory is differentiated by points cost, such as beach resorts.



Best example is probably Ocean Boulevard in Myrtle Beach, where there are two towers with Upper/Lower, Oceanfront/Ocean View, and two towers with no mention of view or location at all.


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## wjappraise

Ron2 said:


> Larry – You’re confusing Wyndham (formerly Fairfield) with RCI. Wyndham has never had hundreds of timeshare resorts for internal exchanges. The current number of around 75 is the most there’s ever been.  The $99 fee that you mentioned was the RCI external exchange fee which has gone up. It’s great that you’re satisfied with your fixed week but if you want to exchange sometime in the future you’ll need to subscribe and pay the fees for either RCI or II.



Larry is not confused. He knows exactly what he is talking about. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

Larry M said:


> Well, I never had a beef with Wyndham Guest Confirmations because I never needed to use them. What generated my ire was the way they whittled away at the Fairchild FAX (internal exchange) program. Initially it was free (or $10, can't remember) and every resort Fairchild had was eligible. Then the fees started going up every year and the number of eligible resorts started going down. After the number of resorts dropped from several hundred to less than 70, they stopped publishing the catalog and you had to fight to find out what was eligible. The price went to $99.
> 
> Then Wyndham had the chutzpah to send a letter informing owners that the program was being cancelled due to lack of use. That did it for me. I gave the deed back to HOA, described here and bought a deeded week at an independent time share where the HOA does its own management. (It happens to be on the grounds of a Wyndham resort with use of the Wyndham amenities.
> 
> Incidentally, I've let my son and his family use the deeded week for the last three years. This year, as usual, I called them, identified myself and said, "I'd like to let my son, Daniel M, and his family use the timeshare this year. What do I have to do?" and the response was "You've just done it." Works for me.



The Fax program was exactly what you describe.. but it went away after Wyndham created a new internal exchange program.  The new internal exchange program is the points system called Club Wyndham Plus


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## uscav8r

wjappraise said:


> Larry is not confused. He knows exactly what he is talking about.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




Larry may not be confused, but the Fairchild reference (as opposed to Fairfield) certainly caused some confusion for readers and long time owners such as myself. If FAX predates the Club Wyndham Plus points program, Larry must be a very^3 long time owner!

To make matters even more confusing for those of us who own both Club Wyndham and WorldMark, WorldMark also has a FAX program currently in place that amounts to cash rental of credits/points for one's vacation. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

uscav8r said:


> Larry may not be confused, but the Fairchild reference (as opposed to Fairfield) certainly caused some confusion for readers and long time owners such as myself. If FAX predates the Club Wyndham Plus points program, Larry must be a very^3 long time owner!
> 
> To make matters even more confusing for those of us who own both Club Wyndham and WorldMark, WorldMark also has a FAX program currently in places that amounts to cash rental of credits/points for one's vacation.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 
I think we all knew Larry meant Fairfield that didn't confuse anyone

I posted something recently titled the more things change, the more they stay the same. I believe to understand what's happening now, it's important to understand where we have been i.e. A little historical perspective.  Larry has given is a peek at the past and I think that's helpful

Fairfield was a collection of fixed week resorts knit together with an internal exchange program called FAX (completely different from the cash program at Worldmark called FAX)
At some point Wyndham moved to a points system for internal exchange and phased out FAX. The weeks owners that  didn't convert to points can still do exchanges through RCI or other exchange companies


----------



## Ron2

ronparise said:


> I think we all knew Larry meant Fairfield that didn't confuse anyone
> 
> I posted something recently titled the more things change, the more they stay the same. I believe to understand what's happening now, it's important to understand where we have been i.e. A little historical perspective.  Larry has given is a peek at the past and I think that's helpful
> 
> Fairfield was a collection of fixed week resorts knit together with an internal exchange program called FAX (completely different from the cash program at Worldmark called FAX)
> At some point Wyndham moved to a points system for internal exchange and phased out FAX. The weeks owners that  didn't convert to points can still do exchanges through RCI or other exchange companies



Actually the points system started under Fairfield not Wyndham. My first Fairfield purchases in 2000 (Ocean Walk, Grand Desert, and Waikiki Beach Walk)were all points contracts. The internal exchange system using points was in place at that time.


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## raygo123

Ron2 said:


> Actually the points system started under Fairfield not Wyndham. My first Fairfield purchases in 2000 (Ocean Walk, Grand Desert, and Waikiki Beach Walk)were all points contracts. The internal exchange system using points was in place at that time.


Actually it could actually been cigna

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## Sandy VDH

I've owned a few of my now Wyndham timeshares before even Fairfield took over, the developer then was called Vacation Breaks (these are mostly the SE Florida Timeshares), so these date back to the early 1990s.  So I've been through the Fairfield FAX program, the Fairfield Points, now Wyndham.  Adapt and evolve or go away.  Only choices available.


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## CO skier

Jan M. said:


> Thanks that is very good to know. Wyndham told us our son had to be 21 to be on our deed! More than once as we rolled over our points into a single contract when buying more points. And we had to pay $100 to have him added to our deed later as he wasn't yet 21. I wonder if that has changed in the almost 10 years since our son turned 21 or did the State be owned in make a difference? Do you know what if anything it costs to add a family member to your deed?


Only the seller(s) notarized signature is required for a deed transfer.  It does not require even a paw print from the buyer.

If someone passes away, and only their dog was the co-owner on the deed, then that is when the problem would appear.  Transferring the property would require more than a paw print.


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## Avislo

Our account has multiple owners consisting of a LLC and immediate family members.  It took a very long time and much persistence, but there are now five out of nine working user names and passwords for the account.  This is the minimum that is needed for my account, it includes a agent for the LLC x 3 and one each for two of three individual owners.  Wish others with this configuration well and remember, if at first you do not secede try and try again until it works to the level you need.

UPDATE:  Talked with Owner Care this morning.  They indicated that the major attempt regarding the new website is getting the new user names and passwords working.


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## Iggyearl

Avislo said:


> if at first you do not secede try and try again


I wonder if that's what the Confederate forces thought........


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## raygo123

Sandy VDH said:


> I've owned a few of my now Wyndham timeshares before even Fairfield took over, the developer then was called Vacation Breaks (these are mostly the SE Florida Timeshares), so these date back to the early 1990s.  So I've been through the Fairfield FAX program, the Fairfield Points, now Wyndham.  Adapt and evolve or go away.  Only choices available.


And RCI was run out of a couples basement in Indiana.

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## OutSkiing

Larry M said:


> It happens to be on the grounds of a Wyndham resort with use of the Wyndham amenities.


So I am curious what resort is this ?

Bob


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## wjappraise

OutSkiing said:


> So I am curious what resort is this ?
> 
> Bob



Larry's prior post referenced Fairfield Bay.  


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## Avislo

Owner Care advises that reservations made under the ARP program over 10 for a night per resort will be sent to audit and the ones over 10 maybe subject to being canceled. I pointed out the rule in the supplement applied to standard and express reservation windows, she said that reservations made under the ARP program are under the rule.


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## ronparise

Avislo said:


> Owner Care advises that reservations made under the ARP program over 10 for a night per resort will be sent to audit and the ones over 10 maybe subject to being canceled. I pointed out the rule in the supplement applied to standard and express reservation windows, she said that reservations made under the ARP program are under the rule.



The new supplement didnt speak to the 10 nightly limit rule. so my assumption is that the old rule stands:  I think the reason for the ARP exemption has to do with property rights. We actually own our home resorts. When we use our points at another resort we dont own where we are reserving, its an exchange So a rule put forward by the club (the trust is at its core, an exchange club ) dosent restrict property rights.

Nightly Unit Limit Our resorts offer you the perfect place to hold your next family reunion or special event. Spacious units and on-site amenities allow you to treat your guests to both comfort and fun. Beginning October 1, 2015, we have enacted a Nightly Unit Limit of *no more than 10 units** per resort, for reservations booked in the Standard and Express Reservation Windows. *Each of the 10 units that are being occupied by your guests will require a Guest Confirmation, as described in the Guest Confirmations policy on page 339. Important Information about the Nightly Unit Limit • During the Standard and Express Reservation windows, you may reserve no more than 10 units per night at a single resort location. *The Nightly Unit Limit does not apply to reservations booked during the Advance Reservation Priority (ARP) window.* • Once you have reached the 10 unit Nightly Unit Limit, any additional reservations made for the same night(s) at a single resort, are subject to cancellation, following the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus cancellation policy. • Reservations booked prior to October 1, 2015, are not subject to the Nightly Unit Limit. **For resorts with less than 50 units in CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, there is a limit of no more than 20% of the total units in the Club. This includes most Affiliate and Associate Resorts and Hotels


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## Avislo

ronparise said:


> The new supplement didnt speak to the 10 nightly limit rule. so my assumption is that the old rule stands:  I think the reason for the ARP exemption has to do with property rights. We actually own our home resorts. When we use our points at another resort we dont own where we are reserving, its an exchange So a rule put forward by the club (the trust is at its core, an exchange club ) dosent restrict property rights.
> 
> Nightly Unit Limit Our resorts offer you the perfect place to hold your next family reunion or special event. Spacious units and on-site amenities allow you to treat your guests to both comfort and fun. Beginning October 1, 2015, we have enacted a Nightly Unit Limit of *no more than 10 units** per resort, for reservations booked in the Standard and Express Reservation Windows. *Each of the 10 units that are being occupied by your guests will require a Guest Confirmation, as described in the Guest Confirmations policy on page 339. Important Information about the Nightly Unit Limit • During the Standard and Express Reservation windows, you may reserve no more than 10 units per night at a single resort location. *The Nightly Unit Limit does not apply to reservations booked during the Advance Reservation Priority (ARP) window.* • Once you have reached the 10 unit Nightly Unit Limit, any additional reservations made for the same night(s) at a single resort, are subject to cancellation, following the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus cancellation policy. • Reservations booked prior to October 1, 2015, are not subject to the Nightly Unit Limit. **For resorts with less than 50 units in CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, there is a limit of no more than 20% of the total units in the Club. This includes most Affiliate and Associate Resorts and Hotels



Do not disagree with you.  I pointed this out to the rep, she checked on it and what I posted was what came back in a firm and insistent manner, or at least in my case.


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## IT Guy

ronparise said:


> The new supplement didnt speak to the 10 nightly limit rule. so my assumption is that the old rule stands:  I think the reason for the ARP exemption has to do with property rights. We actually own our home resorts. When we use our points at another resort we dont own where we are reserving, its an exchange So a rule put forward by the club (the trust is at its core, an exchange club ) dosent restrict property rights.



I too am concerned there may be more restrictions being placed on us than what are spelled out in the new supplement.  If I understand the current system correctly, we could have a single member name on overlapping reservations as long as they were at different resorts.  A VC I spoke to said that would not be allowed under the new system.  

Best to all, DB


----------



## bnoble

ronparise said:


> We actually own our home resorts. When we use our points at another resort we dont own where we are reserving, its an exchange So a rule put forward by the club (the trust is at its core, an exchange club ) dosent restrict property rights.


Playing devil's advocate, I could argue the other side of this. Suppose you own a converted fixed week. By assigning your deeded week to the trust, you give up rights to that week and must play by the trust's rules. If you don't want to play by those rules---which Wyndham can change at its discretion as manager of the trust---you'd need to withdraw/uncovert your week.

It gets even murkier for UDI and CWA.

That said, I agree that Wyndham has not yet produced anything in writing that suggests a 10-night limit for ARP bookings. I suspect the person in Owner Care was simply mis-informed, or Avislo is not communicating the story with complete accuracy.


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## ronparise

The converted fixed week is a good example of the property rights thing I'm talking about.  The rights of a fixed week owner survive within the trust in that arp window  you don't give up your rights as a oroperty owner until the 10 month mark.  So It operates as a fixed week in the arp window.

 if I owned 11 converted  converted weeks deeded for the same week at the same resort I would have to be able to make 11 reservations in the arp window for that week


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## wjappraise

Avislo said:


> Owner Care advises that reservations made under the ARP program over 10 for a night per resort will be sent to audit and the ones over 10 maybe subject to being canceled.



Hmmmm - then why did you post this on another posting?:  "Additionally, using the on line booking feature for ARP will be a good thing. It is not limited by the 10 reservations per resort for a day rule during the standard and express reservation windows per account."   This is quoted from your posting"When are we going live!!"  Am I missing something, or do these two postings contradict each other?


----------



## bnoble

ronparise said:


> if I owned 11 converted converted weeks deeded for the same week at the same resort I would have to be able to make 11 reservations in the arp window for that week


But, (again as Devil's Advocate): only because the Trust currently allows you to do so. Nothing that I know of prevents the Trust from changing its treatment of those weeks, because the conversion contract assigns usage rights to the Trust. Not usage rights after the ARP window closes, but usage rights.

(At least, I think it does. I should go back and read my copy of the conversion agreement before I make this statement too strongly.)


----------



## Avislo

Typed the 1st one to fast.  Sorry about that.


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## ronparise

The points are symbolic of ownership. The basic property rights as spelled out in the hoa docs don't change with the issuance of symbolic points

certainly Wyndham could change the way they have done things since the trust was created but I don't think they will unless of course they can put the screws to another megarenter or two


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## CO skier

bnoble said:


> But, (again as Devil's Advocate): only because the Trust currently allows you to do so. Nothing that I know of prevents the Trust from changing its treatment of those weeks, because the conversion contract assigns usage rights to the Trust. Not usage rights after the ARP window closes, but usage rights.


This is how my UDI deed reads:

"A 105,000 / 17,743,000 undivided fee simple absolute interest in Units … [lengthy description of recorded property] …, which undivided interest has been assigned 105,000 Fairshare Plus Points symbolic of said property interest."

There is nothing in the description of the property or on the deed that refers to Advance Reservation Priority.  ARP is a Club Wyndham Plus program feature, not a deeded right, so I agree and think it can be changed just like any other program rule.



The 10 unit nightly limit is so easily evaded by those who want more than 10 nights, that I do not think it matters much one way or the other if the rumor proves true or not.


----------



## scootr5

wjappraise said:


> Hmmmm - then why did you post this on another posting?:  "Additionally, using the on line booking feature for ARP will be a good thing. It is not limited by the 10 reservations per resort for a day rule during the standard and express reservation windows per account."   This is quoted from your posting"When are we going live!!"  Am I missing something, or do these two postings contradict each other?



When has arguing two different sides ever stopped him?


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> This is how my UDI deed reads:
> 
> "A 105,000 / 17,743,000 undivided fee simple absolute interest in Units … [lengthy description of recorded property] …, which undivided interest has been assigned 105,000 Fairshare Plus Points symbolic of said property interest."
> 
> There is nothing in the description of the property or on the deed that refers to Advance Reservation Priority.  ARP is a Club Wyndham Plus program feature, not a deeded right, so I agree and think it can be changed just like any other program rule.
> 
> 
> 
> The 10 unit nightly limit is so easily evaded by those who want more than 10 nights, that I do not think it matters much one way or the other if the rumor proves true or not.



Good job quoting what on a UDI deed. Now quote what's written on a deed converted to points.  There is no such wording; rather there is a reference to the condo docs and timeshare declarations on file at the local courthouse. The trust can't rewrite those documents

When Wyndham made up the nightly limit rule they wrote a specific exception for your home resort. Why is that? I submit it's because the club is at its core an  exchange club. And until my ownership is offered for exchange (10 months) the exchange rules of the club are not in effect. Now they could pull arp altogether or rewrite it 3 days instead of 3 months, but until they do;  that arp window  is mine for what I own

I come to this conclusion in this way:
If Wyndham could have made  the 10 nightly limit rule apply To everything all the time,  they would have. They didn't so I conclude that they couldn't


----------



## wjappraise

Avislo said:


> Typed the 1st one to fast.  Sorry about that.



Robert - I actually think your earlier (1st) post about ARP being shielded from the ten unit limit is the correct assertion.


----------



## Avislo

wjappraise said:


> Robert - I actually think your earlier (1st) post about ARP being shielded from the ten unit limit is the correct assertion.



Hope you are right.  It was a no go for me as of today.  It may just affect my account.


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> Good job quoting what on a UDI deed. Now quote what's written on a deed converted to points.  There is no such wording; rather there is a reference to the condo docs and timeshare declarations on file at the local courthouse. The trust can't rewrite those documents


The condo docs and timeshare declarations are referenced in the lengthy description of the UDI property, too.  I have never seen them, so I cannot state with certainty that Advanced Reservation Priority is not mentioned in any of those documents, but I doubt it is.

Unless someone has seen condo docs or their timeshare declaration that references ARP, I will stick with my conclusion that it is not a deeded right, and it can be changed.   I like ARP and hope it never changes; if it ever does, I will not feel that I lost any property right.


----------



## ecwinch

CO skier said:


> The condo docs and timeshare declarations are referenced in the lengthy description of the UDI property, too.  I have never seen them, so I cannot state with certainty that Advanced Reservation Priority is not mentioned in any of those documents, but I doubt it is.
> 
> Unless someone has seen condo docs or their timeshare declaration that references ARP, I will stick with my conclusion that it is not a deeded right, and it can be changed.   I like ARP and hope it never changes; if it ever does, I will not feel that I lost any property right.



It doesnt need to be a deeded right per se. But whatever reservation priority exists, has to apply equally to all owners - regardless of assignment of the interest to Club Wyndham. There in lies the rub. If they prevented Club members from being able to use their ARP to make reservations on equally footing with deeded owners (at their home resort), they effectively would be blocking them from making reservations at peak season. For instance at Pahio resorts, the deeded owners would lockup all the holiday inventory 14 months out, leaving the Club Wyndham owners with leftovers.


----------



## CO skier

ecwinch said:


> It doesnt need to be a deeded right per se. But whatever reservation priority exists, has to apply equally to all owners - regardless of assignment of the interest to Club Wyndham.


That is not how ARP is administered now.  UDI owners may ARP any week in their Use Year at their home resort.  CWA owners do not have only one home resort, so may ARP at multiple resorts.  Converted fixed week owners may ARP only their underlying fixed week.  Some resorts have Reciprocal ARP.  Wyndham chose 10 months as the time for ARP to end and "points to be points" used at non-home resorts.  It could just as easily have been 11 months or 9 months, because ARP is just a program rule.

Wyndham created ARP in the Club Plus program.  Yes, there are different types of deeds, and the above ARP versions are how Wyndham incorporated the various deed types into the program, but none of the deeds, to my knowledge, entitles anyone to Advance Reservation Priority.  It is just a feature of the Club.


----------



## ronparise

IT Guy said:


> I too am concerned there may be more restrictions being placed on us than what are spelled out in the new supplement.  If I understand the current system correctly, we could have a single member name on overlapping reservations as long as they were at different resorts.  A VC I spoke to said that would not be allowed under the new system.
> 
> Best to all, DB


 
The current rule on overlapping reservations applies inside 15 days before check in and it does apply across resorts.


----------



## ecwinch

CO skier said:


> That is not how ARP is administered now.  UDI owners may ARP any week in their Use Year at their home resort.  CWA owners do not have only one home resort, so may ARP at multiple resorts.  Converted fixed week owners may ARP only their underlying fixed week.  Some resorts have Reciprocal ARP.  Wyndham chose 10 months as the time for ARP to end and "points to be points" used at non-home resorts.  It could just as easily have been 11 months or 9 months, because ARP is just a program rule.
> 
> Wyndham created ARP in the Club Plus program.  Yes, there are different types of deeds, and the above ARP versions are how Wyndham incorporated the various deed types into the program, but none of the deeds, to my knowledge, entitles anyone to Advance Reservation Priority.  It is just a feature of the Club.




Wyndham did not create ARP, it simply coined a clever term to describe it. Every owner at a resort has the inherent right to reserve usage at their home resort in accordance with their underlying property interest. So while it is true that a deed does not entitle anyone to ARP, your deed does entitle you to make reservations on a equal basis as all other owners at that resort - which for most resorts is a mix of deeded non-Wyndham owners and deed owners who have assigned their deeds to Club Wyndham.

Now Wyndham could have asked me to assign that right to them as a condition of joining the Club and have all reservations start 10 months out. But that would be placing Club members at a huge disadvantage to compared to non-Club members who own at a home resort. They just labeled that right as "ARP", it as easily could have been called "Owners Original Deeded Right to Reserve Usage"... but ARP is much catchier.


----------



## CO skier

ecwinch said:


> Wyndham did not create ARP, it simply coined a clever term to describe it. Every owner at a resort has the inherent right to reserve usage at their home resort in accordance with their underlying property interest. So while it is true that a deed does not entitle anyone to ARP, your deed does entitle you to make reservations on a equal basis as all other owners at that resort - which for most resorts is a mix of deeded non-Wyndham owners and deed owners who have assigned their deeds to Club Wyndham.
> 
> Now Wyndham could have asked me to assign that right to them as a condition of joining the Club and have all reservations start 10 months out. But that would be placing Club members at a huge disadvantage to compared to non-Club members who own at a home resort. They just labeled that right as "ARP", it as easily could have been called "Owners Original Deeded Right to Reserve Usage"... but ARP is much catchier.


All true.  My point is that there is nothing magical about the 3 month ARP period.  Wyndham created it, and it could have been for any length of time.  Club Wyndham Select could have been created with every UDI interest having 13 month priority at multiple resorts in the points system, just like Club Wyndham Access.  The 3 month ARP period was/is a marketing ploy, imo.  And it is working for Wyndham in CWA.  Before CWA, Wyndham could only sell as many deeds to Bonnet Creek as there were points deeded to Bonnet Creek.  Now with CWA, they can package all those off-season weeks at Branson and elsewhere, and sell them as Christmas weeks at Bonnet Creek by telling every prospect that they have 13 month ARP at Bonnet Creek and all these other prime resorts.

It is only well after the rescission window closes that the new owners discover how much competition there is to reserve prime times in the best resorts.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> That is not how ARP is administered now.  UDI owners may ARP any week in their Use Year at their home resort.  CWA owners do not have only one home resort, so may ARP at multiple resorts.  Converted fixed week owners may ARP only their underlying fixed week.  Some resorts have Reciprocal ARP.  Wyndham chose 10 months as the time for ARP to end and "points to be points" used at non-home resorts.  It could just as easily have been 11 months or 9 months, because ARP is just a program rule.
> 
> Wyndham created ARP in the Club Plus program.  Yes, there are different types of deeds, and the above ARP versions are how Wyndham incorporated the various deed types into the program, but none of the deeds, to my knowledge, entitles anyone to Advance Reservation Priority.  It is just a feature of the Club.




i cant help but think you have this backwards

The ability to make reservations at a resort you own is an understood right of ownership. It isn't a a feature of the club.  It's what's left after we pay the price of admission to that  club


----------



## ecwinch

CO skier said:


> All true.  My point is that there is nothing magical about the 3 month ARP period.  Wyndham created it, and it could have been for any length of time.



I think Ron sums up the distinction well.

For instance my ARP at Wyndham Kauai Beach Villas is 14 months out. Wyndham has nothing to do with that. If they had imposed 13 months as my ARP there I would not have joined the Club.

The only thing they "decided" was when to open up all the other resorts for me to make reservations at... i.e. the standard reservation window, not ARP.


----------



## bnoble

bnoble said:


> (At least, I think it does. I should go back and read my copy of the conversion agreement before I make this statement too strongly.)



I went back to check the conversion contract. Here is what it says (in paragraph #2), annotated:

Owner hereby subjects the use, occupancy and possessory rights in the Property [the deeded week] to the FairShare Vacation Plan as same is defined in the Trust Agreement and surrenders and dedicates the possession and use of said Property to the Trust to be administered in accordance with the terms, restrictions and conditions set forth in the Trust Agreement, and agrees that the Owner's Use Rights and occupancy of the Property subjected to the Trust Agreement shall be subject to the terms and provisions of same, as well as the Management Agreement as same may be amended from time to time.​
I can't find anything else in the conversion contract that limits what rights I give up, except I do retain voting rights (paragraph 5) and have the right to cancel the agreement and withdraw the week from the Trust (paragraph 9). To me that seems pretty clear that if, for example, the Trust eliminated ARP entirely then no one would have a period during which they could reserve "their" fixed week, because it isn't theirs anymore---the rights to occupy it belong to the Trust and are governed only by the Trust Agreement.

Again: I'm only pointing out what's possible, not what's probable. I don't expect this, or anything like it, to happen. But, at the same time, I don't see any reason why it is completely impossible, at least for converted fixed weeks.



ronparise said:


> I come to this conclusion in this way:
> If Wyndham could have made the 10 nightly limit rule apply To everything all the time, they would have. They didn't so I conclude that they couldn't


That's a reasonable conclusion to draw. But, there could be other reasons why the Trust management decided not to do that---too much negative reaction from owners, for example, or no easy way to track it in current IT systems, etc. 



ecwinch said:


> Every owner at a resort has the inherent right to reserve usage at their home resort in accordance with their underlying property interest.



I don't quite see it that way, at least not for converted fixed weeks. I see it as "...in accordance with their underlying property interests, _as governed the Trust Agreement._


----------



## happyhopian

scootr5 said:


> When has arguing two different sides ever stopped him?


Be careful. You will be asked to leave by the 'be nice' police


----------



## happyhopian

CO skier said:


> That is not how ARP is administered now.  UDI owners may ARP any week in their Use Year at their home resort.  CWA owners do not have only one home resort, so may ARP at multiple resorts.  Converted fixed week owners may ARP only their underlying fixed week.  Some resorts have Reciprocal ARP.  Wyndham chose 10 months as the time for ARP to end and "points to be points" used at non-home resorts.  It could just as easily have been 11 months or 9 months, because ARP is just a program rule.
> 
> Wyndham created ARP in the Club Plus program.  Yes, there are different types of deeds, and the above ARP versions are how Wyndham incorporated the various deed types into the program, but none of the deeds, to my knowledge, entitles anyone to Advance Reservation Priority.  It is just a feature of the Club.


Then I'm curious - what do you think the deed entitles you to? If booking starts at 13 months out for anyone, then it must apply to the ones who have direct ownership in my opinion. Based on conversations I have had in the last few weeks about ARP and how points were aligned I am going to side with Ron in the random hypothetical of 'what might they take away next'. As of now I too think that IF wyndham could have taken it away they in fact WOULD have taken it away. They didn't so I don't think they can. Final answer for me. Let's see what they do in a few weeks


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> The ability to make reservations at a resort you own is an understood right of ownership. It isn't a a feature of the club.  It's what's left after we pay the price of admission to that  club


One can never go wrong stating the obvious.


----------



## CO skier

ecwinch said:


> The only thing they "decided" was when to open up all the other resorts for me to make reservations at... i.e. the standard reservation window, not ARP.


That is half of the point I am making.  The other half is when Wyndham decided to open the ARP reservation window for owners to begin using the points for any Use Year.

My deed only transfers the ownership of those points.  There is nothing in the deed that directly says anything about when or how to use those points.  I am sure that there is some document that links the documents referenced in the deed to the Fairshare Trust Agreement.  There is nothing in the Trust Agreement about 13-month ARP reservations.  Only this:


*"11.03 Reservations. The rules, regulations and guidelines concerning reservations and exchanges shall be set forth in the Directory."*


So it is not until we get to the Guidelines in the Directory that the 13-month ARP reservation is defined.


*"Reservation Timelines


Advance Reservation Priority (ARP)


Advance Reservation Priority is a priority reservation feature that allows you to confirm a reservation up to 13 months in advance at your ‘home’ resort(s). 


Standard Reservations


The Standard Reservation period is 10 months to 91 days prior to check-in"*


I am sure that there is something that states, "Guidelines may be amended from time to time."

So, when Wyndham created the Club Wyndham Plus Program, they could have just as easily decided that the Program offer ARP at 12 months plus 1 day and Standard Reservations at 9 months.  Or they could have decided that all UDI points had Reservation Priority at all other UDI resorts in the Program at 13 months.  They decided on 13 month ARP and 10 month Standard reservations. Its not written in stone or a property right, but I doubt it changes.

It may be that to extend the 10 unit Nightly Limit beyond the 10-month Standard Reservation timeline, ARP would have to be eliminated.  That may be the rub.


Not to change the subject, but as a related illustration:  Someone might think that if it is written in the Fairfield Trust Agreement it must be a property right.  The Points Credit Pool is written into the Trust by name, but Wyndham has decided to change that into the Points Deposit Program with different rules.


----------



## CO skier

happyhopian said:


> Then I'm curious - what do you think the deed entitles you to? If booking starts at 13 months out for anyone, then it must apply to the ones who have direct ownership in my opinion.


I think my deeded ownership entitles me to using my symbolic interest in the Wyndham Club Plus Program according to the Guidelines in the Directory.

*"WHEREAS, Wyndham desires to establish a trust to permit the Beneficiaries to use and exchange the Use Rights available through the Trust; and 
WHEREAS, Persons that (i) subject one or more Property Interest(s) to this Trust Agreement by an assignment to the Trust of the Use Rights attributable to such Property Interest(s), or (ii) purchase one or more Property Interests which have previously been subjected to this Trust Agreement, shall be allocated Points symbolic of the Use Rights and other attributes of their respective Property Interest(s) and shall be permitted to use their symbolic Points as described herein; and 
WHEREAS, the Points allocated to a Member may be used to reserve Trust Properties pursuant to the procedures described in this Trust Agreement and the FairShare Plus Member’s Directory"*


I also think Wyndham can change the Guidelines in the Directory, and that may or may not change how I can use my points.

Other than what I read in the Supplemental directory, I have no idea what changes may be headed our way.  The listed changes have no effect on how I use my Club Wyndham ownership.

I do know not to rely on any rumor I might hear from a Wyndham salesperson, or vacation counselor.  That is not to say they are wrong, I just do not rely on the information.


----------



## CCdad

The Wyndham owner's web site is currently "under maintenance."

Could today be the new system launch day or is the overnight batch processing running a bit longer than expected?


----------



## paxsarah

CCdad said:


> The Wyndham owner's web site is currently "under maintenance."
> 
> Could today be the new system launch day or is the overnight batch processing running a bit longer than expected?



I hope not, because I'm pretty sure people are expecting them to hold to this from the email: "You will be notified via email in the coming weeks regarding the launch date of these systems." Although, I guess technically that could take the form of "Surprise! The new systems have just been launched!"


----------



## chapjim

paxsarah said:


> I hope not, because I'm pretty sure people are expecting them to hold to this from the email: "You will be notified via email in the coming weeks regarding the launch date of these systems." Although, I guess technically that could take the form of "Surprise! The new systems have just been launched!"



If this is "IT," I hope Wyndham's new system can handle thousands of owners putting fake names and addresses on overlapping reservations in the first 48 hours.


----------



## paxsarah

I'm glad I don't have any reservations or cancellations I'm expecting to make in at least a couple of months.


----------



## ronparise

So what comes first?  the chicken or the egg? The resorts or the club?

This discussion about the trust came out of a post that said there is another rule change coming to extend the 10 nightly limit rule to reservations made in the arp period

I posted my answer, which was and still is.....   It ain't gonna happen.

 And here's why: to limit the number of reservations I can make with what I own,  is to put a limit on how much I can  own. 

The trust is an exchange club and the way it works is this. Up until 10 months before check in you can use what you own yourself.  But at 10 months you can exchange what you own to reserve what other people own

Could the time line change? Sure. the exchange free-for-all could open up at 11 months or 12 months or 6 months or whatever. But there has to be a time before which I can use what I own myself.  Just  like RCI I can put a week I own into the exchange pool or not, but before I do I can use it myself

I'm arguing that before my ownership is opened up to the entire club it's mine to use myself.  And if I own 15 weeks at a resort I should be allowed to make 15 reservations and if I have points symbolic of ownership of 15 weeks at one resort I should be allowed to make 15 reservations 

 if you limit the number of reservations I can make with what I own it's really  a limit how much I can own and that's not happening 


So what I'm left with is that Wyndham can't restrict the number of reservations I can make in the arp window. They can only regulate what I use for exchanges


----------



## happyhopian

CO skier said:


> I think my deeded ownership entitles me to using my symbolic interest in the Wyndham Club Plus Program according to the Guidelines in the Directory.
> 
> *"WHEREAS, Wyndham desires to establish a trust to permit the Beneficiaries to use and exchange the Use Rights available through the Trust; and
> WHEREAS, Persons that (i) subject one or more Property Interest(s) to this Trust Agreement by an assignment to the Trust of the Use Rights attributable to such Property Interest(s), or (ii) purchase one or more Property Interests which have previously been subjected to this Trust Agreement, shall be allocated Points symbolic of the Use Rights and other attributes of their respective Property Interest(s) and shall be permitted to use their symbolic Points as described herein; and
> WHEREAS, the Points allocated to a Member may be used to reserve Trust Properties pursuant to the procedures described in this Trust Agreement and the FairShare Plus Member’s Directory"*
> 
> 
> I also think Wyndham can change the Guidelines in the Directory, and that may or may not change how I can use my points.
> 
> Other than what I read in the Supplemental directory, I have no idea what changes may be headed our way.  The listed changes have no effect on how I use my Club Wyndham ownership.
> 
> I do know not to rely on any rumor I might hear from a Wyndham salesperson, or vacation counselor.  That is not to say they are wrong, I just do not rely on the information.




There has been a tremendous amount of analysis into a pure hypothetical about WHY Wyndham didn't include ARP in the 10 night limit which has taken us to a detailed review of what the contract might or might not provide. I spoke with Owner Care on an unrelated matter dealing with contract points being used in the order of expiration, which exhausted a contract I use exclusively for ARP at Christmas. In my call to Owner Care they worked around this issue and gave me the ARP stating that 'I was contractually entitled to that'. I posted about this in another thread last month.

Yes there is a lot of correct belief that Wyndham can do whatever they want, but there are certain areas where they are limited. For example, there is no ROFR on purchases, they cannot take back a unit and tell you to get lost. This is a property purchase, purchased for a particular use and that doesn't require a contract. In fact, what everyone seems to be missing here is that in fact the contract being silent says everything.

My point is this - ARP, APR, RRR, AAA it doesn't matter. If you are a property owner you are entitled to book your corresponding points at anytime that the booking window is open. They cannot restrict your use and I am not aware of a way in which they have except to be sure that the OWNER is using the unit lest you must pay a fee. In fact the <10 doesn't apply to ARP according to the published changes. If you are not a property owner, then you are allowed exchange uses as per the contract limitation<<<---- THIS is a benefit. The use of your PROPERTY is a right.

Going forward I'm just going to agree to disagree. ARP is not included and it is my opinion, both legal and personal experience with Wyndham, that any use at the resort of deeded ownership is a right not a benefit.

EDIT** Ron apparently I was typing this while you posted yours. Strange how similar the thoughts are. I agree with what you said as well.


----------



## Braindead

ronparise said:


> So what comes first?  the chicken or the egg? The resorts or the club?
> 
> This discussion about the trust came out of a post that said there is another rule change coming to extend the 10 nightly limit rule to reservations made in the arp period
> 
> I posted my answer, which was and still is.....   It ain't gonna happen.
> 
> And here's why: to limit the number of reservations I can make with what I own,  is to put a limit on how much I can  own.
> 
> The trust is an exchange club and the way it works is this. Up until 10 months before check in you can use what you own yourself.  But at 10 months you can exchange what you own to reserve what other people own
> 
> Could the time line change? Sure. the exchange free-for-all could open up at 11 months or 12 months or 6 months or whatever. But there has to be a time before which I can use what I own myself.  Just  like RCI I can put a week I own into the exchange pool or not, but before I do I can use it myself
> 
> I'm arguing that before my ownership is opened up to the entire club it's mine to use myself.  And if I own 15 weeks at a resort I should be allowed to make 15 reservations and if I have points symbolic of ownership of 15 weeks at one resort I should be allowed to make 15 reservations
> 
> if you limit the number of reservations I can make with what I own it's really  a limit how much I can own and that's not happening
> 
> 
> So what I'm left with is that Wyndham can't restrict the number of reservations I can make in the arp window. They can only regulate what I use for exchanges


If you have the right to 15 reservations during ARP. 
Why don't you have the right to make the same 15 reservations at your home resort at 10 months ?


----------



## Braindead

happyhopian said:


> There has been a tremendous amount of analysis into a pure hypothetical about WHY Wyndham didn't include ARP in the 10 night limit which has taken us to a detailed review of what the contract might or might not provide. I spoke with Owner Care on an unrelated matter dealing with contract points being used in the order of expiration, which exhausted a contract I use exclusively for ARP at Christmas. In my call to Owner Care they worked around this issue and gave me the ARP stating that 'I was contractually entitled to that'. I posted about this in another thread last month.
> 
> Yes there is a lot of correct belief that Wyndham can do whatever they want, but there are certain areas where they are limited. For example, there is no ROFR on purchases, they cannot take back a unit and tell you to get lost. This is a property purchase, purchased for a particular use and that doesn't require a contract. In fact, what everyone seems to be missing here is that in fact the contract being silent says everything.
> 
> My point is this - ARP, APR, RRR, AAA it doesn't matter. If you are a property owner you are entitled to book your corresponding points at anytime that the booking window is open. They cannot restrict your use and I am not aware of a way in which they have except to be sure that the OWNER is using the unit lest you must pay a fee. In fact the <10 doesn't apply to ARP according to the published changes. If you are not a property owner, then you are allowed exchange uses as per the contract limitation<<<---- THIS is a benefit. The use of your PROPERTY is a right.
> 
> Going forward I'm just going to agree to disagree. ARP is not included and it is my opinion, both legal and personal experience with Wyndham, that any use at the resort of deeded ownership is a right not a benefit.
> 
> EDIT** Ron apparently I was typing this while you posted yours. Strange how similar the thoughts are. I agree with what you said as well.


Similar question. If it's property rights. How does Wyndham stop those property rights at 10 months ? Property rights can't be stopped


----------



## ronparise

Braindead said:


> Similar question. If it's property rights. How does Wyndham stop those property rights at 10 months ? Property rights can't be stopped



If you remember that the Club  (the trust) is an exchange club its easy to understand... especially if you are familiar with RCI or one of the other exchange companies

The answer to your question  "How does Wyndham stop those property rights at 10 months ?" is; Those property rights are not stopped, You have assigned your rights  to the Club, and in exchange you get to make reservations at other resorts. 

The point Im trying to make in my previous posts is that we have not assigned our right to use the property until 10 months before check in...and the Club cant limit what they dont have.


----------



## Braindead

I'm not exchanging when I want to make 10 plus reservations at my home resort. 

I totally agree it's a moot point. It's not going to change


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> One can never go wrong stating the obvious.


 I wonder why you dont see the obvious.. Thats why I state it


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## ronparise

Braindead said:


> I'm not exchanging when I want to make 10 plus reservations at my home resort.
> 
> I totally agree it's a moot point. It's not going to change



There you go

I wish I had could have been as economical with my words..   It seems I ramble more and more every year, Thanks for translating for me


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## bnoble

ronparise said:


> The point Im trying to make in my previous posts is that we have not assigned our right to use the property until 10 months before check in.


That is not what my conversion agreement says, Ron. It says all rights.

I agree with you, I think they won't, under any circumstances. But that's not the same as they can't.


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## ronparise

I guess that's right they could do away with arp and like Worldmark and CWA open everything up at the same time. To be able to reserve anything at 13 months or 12 or 2years or 2 months i.e. Put  everything into CWA 

I wonder what would happen if I asked to pull a UDI ownership out of the trust.


----------



## raygo123

happyhopian said:


> Then I'm curious - what do you think the deed entitles you to? If booking starts at 13 months out for anyone, then it must apply to the ones who have direct ownership in my opinion. Based on conversations I have had in the last few weeks about ARP and how points were aligned I am going to side with Ron in the random hypothetical of 'what might they take away next'. As of now I too think that IF wyndham could have taken it away they in fact WOULD have taken it away. They didn't so I don't think they can. Final answer for me. Let's see what they do in a few weeks


If Wyndham had a blank slate to work from much of what you say would never have happened.  It would have been one points trust, backed by deeds, as a resort, not /50 of a unit, in said bldg.  I have never heard of someone making that an issue.  And a ts been that way I think forever.  


Did we once have to let Wyndham know prior to start of use year that you will be using it?

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## Avislo

CCdad said:


> The Wyndham owner's web site is currently "under maintenance."
> 
> Could today be the new system launch day or is the overnight batch processing running a bit longer than expected?



The pre-view site Owner Detail listing of contracts is back up and the financial info is back also.  Here is hoping the regular site follows suit at 9:00 a.m.


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## Larry M

OutSkiing said:


> So I am curious what resort is this ?
> 
> Bob



Egrets Pointe at Edisto Beach, South Carolina. It's a tenant organization, independent, but on the grounds of Wyndham Ocean Ridge. I've never learned the history, but I assume that the original developer sold some lots (retaining rights) to raise cash and Wyndham wound up owning the rest.


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## Larry M

Ron2 said:


> Larry – You’re confusing Wyndham (formerly Fairfield) with RCI. Wyndham has never had hundreds of timeshare resorts for internal exchanges. The current number of around 75 is the most there’s ever been.  The $99 fee that you mentioned was the RCI external exchange fee which has gone up. It’s great that you’re satisfied with your fixed week but if you want to exchange sometime in the future you’ll need to subscribe and pay the fees for either RCI or II.



I assure you that I am not. I've never been a member of RCI, nor have I done business with them.



wjappraise said:


> Larry is not confused. He knows exactly what he is talking about.



Thank you for your support.



ronparise said:


> The Fax program was exactly what you describe.. but it went away after Wyndham created a new internal exchange program.  The new internal exchange program is the points system called Club Wyndham Plus



I was offered the opportunity to convert to points for several years but always declined. When someone comes to me unbidden with a "great offer" I am always skeptical. Given the difficulty I had each time I wanted to do an exchange, I wasn't about to give up a guaranteed fixed week for a reservation I might not be able to get. And I didn't trust the point assignment system. That 100,000 point reservation I was looking at could inflate to 150,000 or 200,000 next year.



uscav8r said:


> Larry may not be confused, but the Fairchild reference (as opposed to Fairfield) certainly caused some confusion for readers and long time owners such as myself. If FAX predates the Club Wyndham Plus points program, Larry must be a very^3 long time owner!
> 
> To make matters even more confusing for those of us who own both Club Wyndham and WorldMark, WorldMark also has a FAX program currently in place that amounts to cash rental of credits/points for one's vacation.



Yes, it should have been Fairfield. Sorry for the fingercheck.

My late mother-in-law was a wonderful woman with a ton of common sense but not much sales resistance. She bought the unit while living in Illinois in the 1980s or early 1990s (1993 sticks in my mind), and gave us the deed in the late 1990s or early 2000s.

The deed was for Fairfield Bay, Arkansas, the first location Fairfield ever built. *No one in the family ever stayed there.* The location was inconvenient for my il-laws in Illinois and Virginia and later for us in North Carolina. My mother-in-law bought on the temptation of easy exchanges. She usually exchanged a few years at a time for multiple units for family reunions in Williamsburg, Virginia. After my wife and inlaws passed, I exchanged it for Edisto Beach for a few years, but the exchange fees got out of hand, other alternatives went away, and ultimately the exchange program was cancelled. At that point I simply gave the fixed week back to the association. There's a separate thread on that.



ronparise said:


> I think we all knew Larry meant Fairfield that didn't confuse anyone
> 
> I posted something recently titled the more things change, the more they stay the same. I believe to understand what's happening now, it's important to understand where we have been i.e. A little historical perspective.  Larry has given is a peek at the past and I think that's helpful
> 
> Fairfield was a collection of fixed week resorts knit together with an internal exchange program called FAX (completely different from the cash program at Worldmark called FAX)
> At some point Wyndham moved to a points system for internal exchange and phased out FAX. The weeks owners that  didn't convert to points can still do exchanges through RCI or other exchange companies.



Fairfield tried for years to get me to convert from a fixed week to points. I am suspicious of someone who approaches me unbidden and offers to do me a big favor and continually declined. I never converted, and ultimately gave the fixed week back to the association.



Ron2 said:


> Actually the points system started under Fairfield not Wyndham. My first Fairfield purchases in 2000 (Ocean Walk, Grand Desert, and Waikiki Beach Walk)were all points contracts. The internal exchange system using points was in place at that time.



I've never owned anything but fixed week deeded contracts.


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## raygo123

Question, if I make a 10 day reservation, will the computer recognize one week and a three day reservation, or will it recognize it as a 10 day reservation?    Would booking 10 days, or even 8 days in a one bedroom and a two bedroom, what would be the chance of canceling the two bedroom and getting it back as an upgrade?

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

raygo123 said:


> Question, if I make a 10 day reservation, will the computer recognize one week and a three day reservation, or will it recognize it as a 10 day reservation?    Would booking 10 days, or even 8 days in a one bedroom and a two bedroom, what would be the chance of canceling the two bedroom and getting it back as an upgrade?
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk



No one knows, at least non of us owners know this this thing will work

Maybe it has to be an exact match for an auto upgrade to happen. i.e. If you cancel your 10 day 2 bedroom maybe  the only auto upgrade possible be a 10 day one bedroom. And if there is no exact match your 10 days will go back to available inventory

But maybe when you cancel your 10 day reservation someone with a onebedroom for seven days and someone else with a 3 night one bedroom will be upgraded 

And will it operate like Worldmark's waitlist? and the guy with the upgrade request be given a time frame to accept and if they don't it goes to the next upgrade request or back into inventory

Nobody knows


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## schiff1997

Two weeks ago we did the owners update at Royal Vista in early morning and I can actually say even that was completely painless, even learned a couple of things from the Senior Vacation specialist Roberto, nice guy, he told us he had bought some resale points himself over the years. We had no pressure from him, he even allowed me to take his papered "offer" home and gave us his business card. Showed us the new updated unit, can't wait to go back !! Roberto told us the new system is expected to role out May 20 and a lot of the changes are to put the brakes on some of the mega renters, also said cancel and rebook would be no more due to being able to choose upgrade at time of booking .  He stated one guy in the Lauderdale area owns 30,000,000 points and employs people to deal with all his rentals, not sure if this is true, but he really had no reason to lie.


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## wjappraise

Just got this email:





Dear XXXX XXXXXX, 

Great news — your enhanced CLUB WYNDHAM® owner website is launching soon! *We’re scheduled to begin the implementation on May 19, 2017, and expect the system upgrades to take place throughout the entire weekend.* As such, you will not be able to make any CLUB WYNDHAM Plus transactions over the phone or online until the upgrades are complete.

As we mentioned previously, important updates to the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Program Guidelines are effective with the launch of upgraded systems, including the enhanced myclubwyndham.com. These updates were recently shared in the 4/20/17 Supplement to the 2014-2015 CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Resort Directory.

As you prepare for the launch of the upgraded website, be sure to check these items off your list *before May 18*:

• Register and create new login credentials for the enhanced owner website, as your existing credentials will retire along with the current website.

• Review your existing reservations to ensure they meet the updated Guest Compliance Policy (read details on the new policy). Any reservation(s) not in compliance with the policy *will be automatically cancelled* 48 hours after the changes take effect.

Reminder for VIP Members: Visit the enhanced website after the launch to opt-in to the new automated VIP upgrade process for any confirmed reservations.

Transactions will resume once the revamped website launches so be sure to stay tuned to myclubwyndham.com to be among the first to experience your upgraded owner website!

If you have questions, please visit myclubwyndham.com or contact us at 800-251-8736 Monday through Friday, 8 a.m. – 8 p.m. ET; Saturday and Sunday, 9 a.m. – 6 p.m. ET.

As always thank you for being a valued CLUB WYNDHAM Plus member!

Sincerely,

Your CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Family



6277 Sea Harbor Drive
Orlando, FL 32821


----------



## ronparise

schiff1997 said:


> Two weeks ago we did the owners update at Royal Vista in early morning and I can actually say even that was completely painless, even learned a couple of things from the Senior Vacation specialist Roberto, nice guy, he told us he had bought some resale points himself over the years. We had no pressure from him, he even allowed me to take his papered "offer" home and gave us his business card. Showed us the new updated unit, can't wait to go back !! Roberto told us the new system is expected to role out May 20 and a lot of the changes are to put the brakes on some of the mega renters, also said cancel and rebook would be no more due to being able to choose upgrade at time of booking .  He stated one guy in the Lauderdale area owns 30,000,000 points and employs people to deal with all his rentals, not sure if this is true, but he really had no reason to lie.




I dont now, but at one point I ownerd 30,000,000 points, but I live on the other Florida coast and I never had any employees.


----------



## Braindead

ronparise said:


> I dont now, but at one point I ownerd 30,000,000 points, but I live on the other Florida coast and I never had any employees.


Do you think they forgot a 0.  Have you ever heard of anyone with 300,000,000. 
From your post history Ron I thought you had up around 40,000,000 at one time. With no employees


----------



## ronparise

Braindead said:


> Do you think they forgot a 0.  Have you ever heard of anyone with 300,000,000.
> From your post history Ron I thought you had up around 40,000,000 at one time. With no employees



I had 30 million twice.
 I got to 30. Then dropped back to 10 and up to 30 again. Bach to 10 again and up to 20.  That's when the suspensions happened


----------



## Bigrob

schiff1997 said:


> Two weeks ago we did the owners update at Royal Vista in early morning and I can actually say even that was completely painless, even learned a couple of things from the Senior Vacation specialist Roberto, nice guy, he told us he had bought some resale points himself over the years. We had no pressure from him, he even allowed me to take his papered "offer" home and gave us his business card. Showed us the new updated unit, can't wait to go back !! Roberto told us the new system is expected to role out May 20 and a lot of the changes are to put the brakes on some of the mega renters, also said cancel and rebook would be no more due to being able to choose upgrade at time of booking .  He stated one guy in the Lauderdale area owns 30,000,000 points and employs people to deal with all his rentals, not sure if this is true, but he really had no reason to lie.



It is true, except I think the number of points owned may be understated. It also excludes the points also being managed. 

There will still be cancel and rebook. There just won't be cancel, rebook and upgrade as is done today.


----------



## ronparise

Braindead said:


> Do you think they forgot a 0.  Have you ever heard of anyone with 300,000,000.
> From your post history Ron I thought you had up around 40,000,000 at one time. With no employees


The biggest I have heard of is 90 million. But I don't know the guy. I know points managers that do more but I don't know exactly how much


----------



## jumoe

I know it has been discussed here, but has anyone got a hard answer on this question?
What is a "different owner name".
If I have
Jane Smith 
and
JANE SMITH
will that be a "unique owner" in the new system?


----------



## ronparise

jumoe said:


> I know it has been discussed here, but has anyone got a hard answer on this question?
> What is a "different owner name".
> If I have
> Jane Smith
> and
> JANE SMITH
> will that be a "unique owner" in the new system?


No body knows


----------



## am1

jumoe said:


> I know it has been discussed here, but has anyone got a hard answer on this question?
> What is a "different owner name".
> If I have
> Jane Smith
> and
> JANE SMITH
> will that be a "unique owner" in the new system?



No one will give you a hard (correct) answer.  We will soon find out.


----------



## Avislo

I have a number of my user names up and running.  Some I cannot get active.  At least one of the duplicate names (entry not spelled the same) links to just one username in the new system.  Other duplicates in similar situations are not being able to be registered.  Site Services said caps/small do not make a difference.  What you do to hopefully find out in your case is to register one of the names.  Than try the different spelling on the other.  Use a contract number first then a phone number with one spelling than do the same with the other spelling.  If you get a error message saying account already exists than both feed one.  If other types of error messages show up on the 2nd one, than only one took.

If more than one contract repeat the steps for each contract number.


----------



## Jan M.

jumoe said:


> I know it has been discussed here, but has anyone got a hard answer on this question?
> What is a "different owner name".
> If I have
> Jane Smith
> and
> JANE SMITH
> will that be a "unique owner" in the new system?



From my experience yesterday in getting us registered on the new website they have eliminated the multiple variations of names. The system will only accept a first name, no middle initials and caps or small letters don't matter. We have one deed in just our first names in all caps and another deed with the first letter of our first names and middle initial in caps. Also you have to put in the phone number specific to each name and once you've used that first name and phone number it tells you that you are already registered. I even tried using other phone numbers and email addresses but that didn't work either. I tried everything I could think of and nothing worked.


----------



## Zeke_62

I called in today, almost no hold, and quickly credit pooled my 2017 and 2018 points  (which I thought I could not do as I am "thawed".  I then asked a lot of questions. 
Is it time to compare what VCs are reporting to each of us? I'm curious to see how many different answers we get.  
-  The system will be loaded with individual days (The week is completely gone - no more week long Friday starts, Saturday starts, Sunday Starts etc).  
- The availability is NOT aligned by a specific room number.  All individual days are loaded and compared against each other.  (I did NOT ask about hearing or handicap)
- The max reservation length is 14 days.  
- Special room requests will be entered into a "note" field
- Cancels will go back into the system, match up with the days already there and then check against all "upgrade" requests, in order they were submitted, and any days not used will return as available.  This process will complete in seconds.  
- Reservations can be made in 2 to 14 day increments.  1 day within 14 days of travel.  
- Each owner can have their owner log in to their member account.
- The log in you use will set the default name on the reservation.
- You can change the owner name on a reservation at any time without rebooking
 - You can request an upgrade to a better view only 
- If the resort has 1 suite, 1 dx, 2br, etc and you initially book a 1 suite you get the next unit size which could be a 1dx.
- Same as before, only 1 upgrade allowed.  If you started with a 1 suite and get an auto upgrade to a 1dx, then later a 2br comes along you will not get the upgrade to the 2br.


----------



## CO skier

Zeke_62 said:


> I called in today, almost no hold, and quickly credit pooled my 2017 and 2018 points  (which I thought I could not do as I am "thawed".  I then asked a lot of questions.
> Is it time to compare what VCs are reporting to each of us? I'm curious to see how many different answers we get.
> -  The system will be loaded with individual days (The week is completely gone - no more week long Friday starts, Saturday starts, Sunday Starts etc).
> - The availability is NOT aligned by a specific room number.  All individual days are loaded and compared against each other.  (I did NOT ask about hearing or handicap)


Sounds a lot like WorldMark, so maybe.  This is a major change, if it happens.  Pretty much eliminates specific room requests (cannot check into a "special" room someone is in and will be in for the following few days, versus a known checkout day of the week now).




Zeke_62 said:


> - Cancels will go back into the system, match up with the days already there and then check against all "upgrade" requests, in order they were submitted, and any days not used will return as available.  This process will complete in seconds.


Sounds like a modified version of the waitlist used in WorldMark, just limited to upgrades.

"... all "upgrade" requests, in order they were submitted" ... and subject to each VIP upgrade window.  That may prove to be a major change, ... or not.


----------



## Avislo

Sounds like a great idea.  Any contact with Wyndham personnel would be more educational and we would not want other Wyndham employees to be left out.

At least one resort trained their sales staff last week and a offer to go over the changes to get people to updates was used the following day.


----------



## ronparise

The system will be loaded with individual days (The week is completely gone - no more week long Friday starts, Saturday starts, Sunday Starts etc). 
The max reservation length is 14 days. 

This is just like worldmark (except they can have longer reservations than that)

and this is gonna be a really big change, and not just for us.  if it happens this way at all the resorts

Im most familiar with the new orleans resorts so they will be my example. In prime season they allow 3.4 and 7 day reservations and they require Friday check in or check out.  So in prime season Friday, Monday and Tuesday are the only 3 check in/out days.  So they probably have a big housekeeping staff on those days, and not so much the rest of the week Same thing for the front desk

There are a number of popular  events in New Orleans Mardi Gras, Essence fest, Jazz fest, Voodoo, The Sugar bowl. Saints, Football and other sporting events.  So what happens is everybody that wants one of these "hot" reservations is either online or on the phone 13 and 10 months ahead of that check in Friday (under the new system at midnight)... so we all compete on equal footing, small owners, big owners and  mega owners and mega renters.   Thats gonna change

Like in worldmark the bigger owner will be favored. If I have points to waste, instead of a Friday check in for 3 days, Ill check in on Thursday for 4, getting a 24 hour jump on the little guy on a budget.  and instead of a 7 day vacation Ill make mine for 8 or 9

I dont think thats going to happen.  The supplement refers us to the points charts that will still be in effect, so in New Orleans a Friday check in or check out will stay as a requirement


----------



## bnoble

Zeke_62 said:


> Is it time to compare what VCs are reporting to each of us?


I don't think so. You could call three times with a yes/no question about the current system and get three answers. I can't imagine they understand the new one any better.


----------



## happyhopian

ronparise said:


> The system will be loaded with individual days (The week is completely gone - no more week long Friday starts, Saturday starts, Sunday Starts etc).
> The max reservation length is 14 days.
> 
> This is just like worldmark (except they can have longer reservations than that)
> 
> and this is gonna be a really big change, and not just for us.  if it happens this way at all the resorts
> 
> Im most familiar with the new orleans resorts so they will be my example. In prime season they allow 3.4 and 7 day reservations and they require Friday check in or check out.  So in prime season Friday, Monday and Tuesday are the only 3 check in/out days.  So they probably have a big housekeeping staff on those days, and not so much the rest of the week Same thing for the front desk
> 
> There are a number of popular  events in New Orleans Mardi Gras, Essence fest, Jazz fest, Voodoo, The Sugar bowl. Saints, Football and other sporting events.  So what happens is everybody that wants one of these "hot" reservations is either online or on the phone 13 and 10 months ahead of that check in Friday (under the new system at midnight)... so we all compete on equal footing, small owners, big owners and  mega owners and mega renters.   Thats gonna change
> 
> Like in worldmark the bigger owner will be favored. If I have points to waste, instead of a Friday check in for 3 days, Ill check in on Thursday for 4, getting a 24 hour jump on the little guy on a budget.  and instead of a 7 day vacation Ill make mine for 8 or 9
> 
> I dont think thats going to happen.  The supplement refers us to the points charts that will still be in effect, so in New Orleans a Friday check in or check out will stay as a requirement



Ron I don't think you had your coffee (or maybe I haven't had enough) but I am not following at all. It looks like interesting opinions from you on what you have learned and compared that to your experience at NOLA but it makes no sense to me. Can you clarify if you are saying that losing the week structure and the specific date check in will impact local resort cost by having to staff up as a hotel for dailys? Also this confuses me: "
I dont think thats going to happen. The supplement refers us to the points charts that will still be in effect, so in New Orleans a Friday check in or check out will stay as a requirement" -- what are you saying here. Obviously I value what you say and I would like to have a shot at understanding.


----------



## ronparise

happyhopian said:


> Ron I don't think you had your coffee (or maybe I haven't had enough) but I am not following at all. It looks like interesting opinions from you on what you have learned and compared that to your experience at NOLA but it makes no sense to me. Can you clarify if you are saying that losing the week structure and the specific date check in will impact local resort cost by having to staff up as a hotel for dailys? Also this confuses me: "
> I dont think thats going to happen. The supplement refers us to the points charts that will still be in effect, so in New Orleans a Friday check in or check out will stay as a requirement" -- what are you saying here. Obviously I value what you say and I would like to have a shot at understanding.




I know my New orleans example is an extreme one (check in or check out on friday)  but that rule forces turnover to just certain days of the week.  even in a resort like Bonnet creek with fri sat or sunday check ins there are no monday check ins or check outs (except the exceptions for reservations made inside 90 days) >  My point is that thr resorts probably staff up for the busy days and down for the less busy days... With any day check ins thats going to have to change

The supplement says that the resort rules are not being changed and that the resort rules will prevail. This seems to me to really limit the impact of the any day check in feature of the new rules.


My additional point is that if any day check in and any length of stay becomes the new thing and the resort requirements are ignored, this will favor the guy that has lots of points when making the really high demand reservations


----------



## Avislo

As it relates to existing reservations and which user name any given reservation will end up under, It is my understanding, at least through the transfer, one e-mail address will be used for activity on the account through May 19.  After that each user name then can have their own e-mail address for notification etc.  For overlapping reservations, the Resort is still getting the notifications for the owner/guest and that the Resort is the one that would cancel a reservation if the names are the same for the owner/guest in question.  In another words, it does not matter, during the transition which new user name the reservation(s) ends up it.  This should also, basically, be the same thing for reservations across resorts.  I do not see a significant change in this portion of the changes other than a guest needing to be added within 48 hours.


----------



## paxsarah

ronparise said:


> The supplement says that the resort rules are not being changed and that the resort rules will prevail. This seems to me to really limit the impact of the any day check in feature of the new rules.



My sense is that resorts that are totally UDI will have no real argument for keeping limited check-in days, whereas resorts with underlying fixed weeks (converted or unconverted) would have a difficult time letting go of them. I wonder how we will know which resorts have eliminated required check-in days and which haven't. Will they update all of the points charts with this information? Will they finally update the 2014 catalog?


----------



## OutSkiing

Jan M. said:


> From my experience yesterday in getting us registered on the new website they have eliminated the multiple variations of names. The system will only accept a first name, no middle initials and caps or small letters don't matter. We have one deed in just our first names in all caps and another deed with the first letter of our first names and middle initial in caps. Also you have to put in the phone number specific to each name and once you've used that first name and phone number it tells you that you are already registered. I even tried using other phone numbers and email addresses but that didn't work either. I tried everything I could think of and nothing worked.


This assumes the names setup for login will also be used to count owners.  I think the login names are just a convenience feature .. maybe each person can select their own 'favorites' .. woo hoo.  They do claim they verify that either the name entered online matches with a name on a contract or it matches with a phone number listing.  But I think the "Owner Names' are most likely to still come from the actual owners on the deeds. We were not even planning to complicate our lives by having two separate logins.

Bob


----------



## OutSkiing

ronparise said:


> The supplement says that the resort rules are not being changed and that the resort rules will prevail. This seems to me to really limit the impact of the any day check in feature of the new rules.


I agree .. can't imagine they're going to change the check-in rules for hundreds of resorts along with this software rollout.  Even though each day may be in the system as a separate reserve-able entity (aren't they already ?), they will sill have to overlay on top of that any check-in rules for each resort.

Bob


----------



## OutSkiing

bnoble said:


> I don't think so. You could call three times with a yes/no question about the current system and get three answers. I can't imagine they understand the new one any better.


I agree.  The VC told me there is a specific ability to upgrade View or upgrade Size or upgrade Either. I would trust their answers about what they can see 'on the glass' running the customer version of Voyager over speculation about how the underlying system upgrades such as batch vs instant and in what priority order. 

Bob


----------



## ronparise

OutSkiing said:


> This assumes the names setup for login will also be used to count owners.  I think the login names are just a convenience feature .. maybe each person can select their own 'favorites' .. woo hoo.  They do claim they verify that either the name entered online matches with a name on a contract or it matches with a phone number listing.  But I think the "Owner Names' are most likely to still come from the actual owners on the deeds. We were not even planning to complicate our lives by having two separate logins.
> 
> Bob


I'm with you, the separate log  in thing is just silly unless you cant put a reservation in your wife's name except through her log in


----------



## Roger830

This year in January, I didn't get into my unit until well after 5PM.

I noticed on ebay that there were rentals for 6 days with Saturday checkin at the same hoa. 
I checked for Friday 1-night checkins and there was availability. 

My conclusion was that 7-day Friday checkin rentals were converted to Saturday 6-day checkins. 
This obvious defeats the purpose of two checkin days by putting additional burden on the Saturday housekeeping staff. 
Also, the Friday could be used for 1-night requiring cleaning.

Making reservations by days is just an additional cost and inconvenience  for members.


----------



## paxsarah

OutSkiing said:


> I agree .. can't imagine they're going to change the check-in rules for hundreds of resorts along with this software rollout.  Even though each day may be in the system as a separate reserve-able entity (aren't they already ?), they will sill have to overlay on top of that any check-in rules for each resort.
> 
> Bob



I think what it will change, even if the check-in rules are not loosened in practice at most resorts, is an elimination of split reservations. Right now each day is part of a week, and if you find a reservation that plucks a few days from one week and a few days from another week, you'll have a split reservation even if you don't ultimately need to change rooms. It seems like now if each night is stand-alone, there should be no more split reservations.


----------



## Avislo

ronparise said:


> I'm with you, the separate log  in thing is just silly unless you cant put a reservation in your wife's name except through her log in



It is my understanding, that for the time being going forward for awhile booking under different user names is not mandatory and can be done through the primary member (a new buzz word in Wyndham).  Long term, there maybe a attempt to have each member name have access to just the number of points that their name is on contract for.


----------



## uscav8r

Roger830 said:


> This year in January, I didn't get into my unit until well after 5PM.
> 
> I noticed on ebay that there were rentals for 6 days with Saturday checkin at the same hoa.
> I checked for Friday 1-night checkins and there was availability.
> 
> My conclusion was that 7-day Friday checkin rentals were converted to Saturday 6-day checkins.
> This obvious defeats the purpose of two checkin days by putting additional burden on the Saturday housekeeping staff.
> Also, the Friday could be used for 1-night requiring cleaning.
> 
> Making reservations by days is just an additional cost and inconvenience  for members.



This 6-for-7 type of booking is typically not allowed until late in the booking window. My guess is that the requirement is relaxed at some point during the Express Reservation Period. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CO skier

paxsarah said:


> My sense is that resorts that are totally UDI will have no real argument for keeping limited check-in days, whereas resorts with underlying fixed weeks (converted or unconverted) would have a difficult time letting go of them.


Wyndham transferred a number of converted fixed week deeds at Wyndham Pagosa Springs into WorldMark.  The underlying weeks are loaded into WorldMark inventory as full weeks, but any number of days may be booked subject to the reservation guidelines.  When the weeks are contiguous, it is possible to book 2 nights from one of the fixed weeks and 5 nights from another, for example, as a single 7-night reservation.

I do not know if that is how the new Club Wyndham experience might work for some resorts, but that is how converted Wyndham fixed weeks are managed in WorldMark -- any day arrival, for any length of time, with any day checkout.


This is what I do not understand in the new supplement, "You can now book up to 14 nights on one reservation 
with no more than seven nights of the reservation going into the next booking window."

What does, "the next booking window" mean?


----------



## vacationhopeful

CO skier said:


> ....
> This is what I do not understand in the new supplement, "You can now book up to 14 nights on one reservation
> with no more than seven nights of the reservation going into the next booking window."
> 
> What does, "the next booking window" mean?



What that means to me is ... can't book a WED checkin for a 14 night stay ... as the booking window per resort (FRI, SAT and SOME resorts, SUN checkin days .. esp fixed weeks) as you would be hitting 3 booking windows. Wed-Sat; Sat-Sat; Sat-Wed.

A Sat-Sat; Sat-SAT is okay or a FRI combination ... and at some resorts, Sun-Sun (Bonnet Creek, Star Island, Palm Aire, etc).


----------



## paxsarah

CO skier said:


> This is what I do not understand in the new supplement, "You can now book up to 14 nights on one reservation
> with no more than seven nights of the reservation going into the next booking window."
> 
> What does, "the next booking window" mean?



My interpretation is that, for example, when your 10 month booking window opens, you can't make a 14-day reservation, only 7. A week later, assuming availability, you could make all 14. I could be wrong, and the wording is weird.

Edit: looks like the real confusion is the definition of "booking window." Does Wyndham define that anywhere?


----------



## CO skier

vacationhopeful said:


> What that means to me is ... can't book a WED checkin for a 14 night stay ... as the booking window per resort (FRI, SAT and SOME resorts, SUN checkin days .. esp fixed weeks) as you would be hitting 3 booking windows. Wed-Sat; Sat-Sat; Sat-Wed.
> 
> A Sat-Sat; Sat-SAT is okay or a FRI combination ... and at some resorts, Sun-Sun (Bonnet Creek, Star Island, Palm Aire, etc).


That is what I was thinking ...



paxsarah said:


> My interpretation is that, for example, when your 10 month booking window opens, you can't make a 14-day reservation, only 7. A week later, assuming availability, you could make all 14. I could be wrong, and the wording is weird.
> 
> Edit: looks like the real confusion is the definition of "booking window." Does Wyndham define that anywhere?



... until I read this.  I think this might be correct.  Under the Advance Reservation Priority in the Member's Directory, there is reference to "this booking window", meaning the 13-month ARP booking window.


----------



## ronparise

paxsarah said:


> My interpretation is that, for example, when your 10 month booking window opens, you can't make a 14-day reservation, only 7. A week later, assuming availability, you could make all 14. I could be wrong, and the wording is weird.
> 
> Edit: looks like the real confusion is the definition of "booking window." Does Wyndham define that anywhere?


I see it the same way except that 10 months in advance you can make a 10 day  reservation like this 

Mar 14 2018 is 10 months from today.. I can make a 10 day reservation checking in on March 7


----------



## uscav8r

CO skier said:


> Wyndham transferred a number of converted fixed week deeds at Wyndham Pagosa Springs into WorldMark.  The underlying weeks are loaded into WorldMark inventory as full weeks, but any number of days may be booked subject to the reservation guidelines.  When the weeks are contiguous, it is possible to book 2 nights from one of the fixed weeks and 5 nights from another, for example, as a single 7-night reservation.
> 
> I do not know if that is how the new Club Wyndham experience might work for some resorts, but that is how converted Wyndham fixed weeks are managed in WorldMark -- any day arrival, for any length of time, with any day checkout.
> 
> 
> This is what I do not understand in the new supplement, "You can now book up to 14 nights on one reservation
> with no more than seven nights of the reservation going into the next booking window."
> 
> What does, "the next booking window" mean?



To me this is very simple. I can book up to a week beyond the  date at which I could have first booked a resort (whether in ARP or SRP). The 14 days comes in if I were to begin my booking from one week in the past and continue it into one week in the future. 

For example, it is May 15, 2017 and I want to book something in the SRP period (let's assume the FRI/SAT/SUN check in/out is not an issue). I can book March 15-23, 2018, at a resort (March 15 plus up to 7 days into the booking window that begins May/March 16). If there were availability and I wanted a 14-day booking, I can also book March 9-23. 

What I can't do is book March 15-29 on May 15 of the prior year. Adjust for ARP accordingly. 

I may be off by one day if they count the 7 days into the next booking window as beginning in the 15th vice the 16th, but you get my point. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## raygo123

When can one book a Wednesday to Wednesday reservation at 13 months?  On the start of that week or Wednesday of that week?

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


----------



## CO skier

uscav8r said:


> To me this is very simple. If can book up to a week beyond the  date at which I could have first booked a resort (whether in ARP or SRP). The 14 days comes in if I were to begin my booking from one week in the past and continue it into one week in the future.
> 
> For example, it is May 15, 2017 and I want to book something in the SRP period (let's assume the FRI/SAT/SUN check in/out is not an issue). I can book March 15-23, 2018, at a resort (March 15 plus up to 7 days into the booking window that begins May/March 16). If there were availability and I wanted a 14-day booking, I can also book March 9-23.
> 
> What I can't do is book March 15-29 on May 15 of the prior year. Adjust for ARP accordingly.
> 
> I may be off by one day if they count the 7 days into the next booking window as beginning in the 15th vice the 16th, but you get my point.


I understand the point.  It would define "booking window" as a rolling 1-day window.

This makes sense, too, as a possibility.  It would limit "first opportunity to book" reservations to 8 (or 7) days.

I will just have to be surprised when the true meaning of "the next booking window" is revealed.


----------



## ronparise

raygo123 said:


> When can one book a Wednesday to Wednesday reservation at 13 months?  On the start of that week or Wednesday of that week?
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


im betting neither

wed to wed can be done 13 months before  Friday 

3 nights Wednesday to Friday
4 nights Fri to Wednesday


(similar to the way grouped reservations work in the Worldmark system)


----------



## uscav8r

CO skier said:


> I understand the point.  It would define "booking window" as a rolling 1-day window.
> 
> ...



A very succinct description! Much more eloquent than my lengthy example. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MaryBella7

Jan M. said:


> From my experience yesterday in getting us registered on the new website they have eliminated the multiple variations of names. The system will only accept a first name, no middle initials and caps or small letters don't matter. We have one deed in just our first names in all caps and another deed with the first letter of our first names and middle initial in caps. Also you have to put in the phone number specific to each name and once you've used that first name and phone number it tells you that you are already registered. I even tried using other phone numbers and email addresses but that didn't work either. I tried everything I could think of and nothing worked.



Spent 3 hours on the phone this morning as I am locked out of the preview website.  Registered as my husband to find that his last name is spelled incorrectly.  Previously, we had both of our names on the accounts and someone at Wyndham made a typo with the incorrect name when one of the contracts was completed.  In the data migration to the new site, it appears that the incorrect spelling was the one that made it through, but not the correct one, so I guess variations are going to be gone, but who knows what variation will make it!


----------



## Avislo

You can try and have this problem corrected through the Title department.  There is no assurance that this will work.


----------



## MaryBella7

Avislo said:


> You can try and have this problem corrected through the Title department.  There is no assurance that this will work.



Since that is not the only issue going on with the site for me, I will wait until the actual one goes live and call to have it fixed - I am good for reservations for a bit


----------



## wed100105

As of right now, I have an overlapping reservation that I need to keep. I have a 4 bedroom presidential for 3 nights, and then a 2 bedroom presidential for 2 nights (one night overlapping) and then a 2 bedroom presidential for 1 night. This gives me a total of 3 nights in a 4 bedroom presidential, and 2 nights in a 2 bedroom presidential. Best case scenario---the new changes open up some availability at Wyndham Glacier Canyon and I am able to find a reservation that works for me. My husband is not traveling with me. Is there any way that I can keep these without losing them? I have tried cancelling and rebooking, but it is not going back into the system as individual nights. 

Here's the exact dates---

Sunday, 5/28 - 3 nights in 4 bedroom presidential 
Tuesday, 5/30 - 2 nights in a 2 bedroom presidential (5/30 overlaps)
Thursday, 6/1 - 1 night in a 2 bedroom presidential 

I can't cancel and rebook the 5/28 due to the 15 day cancellation rule.  Any suggestions?


----------



## ronparise

If you have overlapping reservations you need to get different owners name s on them i.e. You on one and your spouse on the other

Either that or use a guest confirm on one


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## Sandy VDH

wed100105 said:


> As of right now, I have an overlapping reservation that I need to keep. I have a 4 bedroom presidential for 3 nights, and then a 2 bedroom presidential for 2 nights (one night overlapping) and then a 2 bedroom presidential for 1 night. This gives me a total of 3 nights in a 4 bedroom presidential, and 2 nights in a 2 bedroom presidential. Best case scenario---the new changes open up some availability at Wyndham Glacier Canyon and I am able to find a reservation that works for me. My husband is not traveling with me. Is there any way that I can keep these without losing them? I have tried cancelling and rebooking, but it is not going back into the system as individual nights.
> 
> Here's the exact dates---
> 
> Sunday, 5/28 - 3 nights in 4 bedroom presidential
> Tuesday, 5/30 - 2 nights in a 2 bedroom presidential (5/30 overlaps)
> Thursday, 6/1 - 1 night in a 2 bedroom presidential
> 
> I can't cancel and rebook the 5/28 due to the 15 day cancellation rule.  Any suggestions?



Call to change owner, or pay/use a guest certificate and do it online.  You will have to do something.


----------



## uscav8r

wed100105 said:


> As of right now, I have an overlapping reservation that I need to keep. I have a 4 bedroom presidential for 3 nights, and then a 2 bedroom presidential for 2 nights (one night overlapping) and then a 2 bedroom presidential for 1 night. This gives me a total of 3 nights in a 4 bedroom presidential, and 2 nights in a 2 bedroom presidential. Best case scenario---the new changes open up some availability at Wyndham Glacier Canyon and I am able to find a reservation that works for me. My husband is not traveling with me. Is there any way that I can keep these without losing them? I have tried cancelling and rebooking, but it is not going back into the system as individual nights.
> 
> Here's the exact dates---
> 
> Sunday, 5/28 - 3 nights in 4 bedroom presidential
> Tuesday, 5/30 - 2 nights in a 2 bedroom presidential (5/30 overlaps)
> Thursday, 6/1 - 1 night in a 2 bedroom presidential
> 
> I can't cancel and rebook the 5/28 due to the 15 day cancellation rule.  Any suggestions?



You can't cancel the two 2BR Pres units and just pick up 5/31 for two nights?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## am1

Is only one account needed for all my member numbers?


----------



## ronparise

am1 said:


> Is only one account needed for all my member numbers?


Thats the way it looks

i used to equate member number and account. now it looks like multiple member numbers are kept in one online account that can have multiple log in names

confused??? god knows I am


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## Avislo

Try the Contract Number options that worked for at least two people.


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## vacationhopeful

ronparise said:


> Thats the way it looks
> 
> i used to equate member number and account. now it looks like multiple member numbers are kept in one online account that can have multiple log in names
> 
> confused??? god knows I am



Spent the last 60+ minutes on the phone with the Wyndham call center. They have managed to intertwine my 2 member numbers into a confusion of jumble. Neither member number works ... can not get anything straight ... contracts, sign into anything, reservations ... have not gotten to MFs yet.

Way too much fun ... just hung up after 60+ minutes with call center ... they don't know what is going on. Told me to call back after the new system settles now in a week or two.


----------



## am1

Maybe owner updates will actually be needed for owners.  Or at least that will be the selling point at check in.


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## bobdaz

so can you have 2 reservations at 2 different resorts for the same week with out a guest certificate or is that considered overlapping reservations


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## uscav8r

bobdaz said:


> so can you have 2 reservations at 2 different resorts for the same week with out a guest certificate or is that considered overlapping reservations



If any nights are common to both bookings, those are considered overlapping and subject to cancellation if not under different names. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wed100105

uscav8r said:


> You can't cancel the two 2BR Pres units and just pick up 5/31 for two nights?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



My husband isn't going along this trip. I do have my name twice in the other owner drop down...one as all caps and the other correctly capitalized. Does the system know that it is the same person? 

I tried canceling and rebooking as different sets of nights. It won't go back into the system and split. I'm hoping tomorrow (last day to cancel) something else pops up in there so I can switch it.


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## CO skier

wed100105 said:


> My husband isn't going along this trip. I do have my name twice in the other owner drop down...one as all caps and the other correctly capitalized. Does the system know that it is the same person?
> 
> I tried canceling and rebooking as different sets of nights. It won't go back into the system and split. I'm hoping tomorrow (last day to cancel) something else pops up in there so I can switch it.


Why not, as previously suggested, just use a Guest Certificate to put one of the other travelers down as a Guest for the 5/30 (or 5/28) reservation to get the duplicate name off one of the reservations?


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## Jan M.

wed100105 said:


> My husband isn't going along this trip. I do have my name twice in the other owner drop down...one as all caps and the other correctly capitalized. Does the system know that it is the same person?
> 
> I tried canceling and rebooking as different sets of nights. It won't go back into the system and split. I'm hoping tomorrow (last day to cancel) something else pops up in there so I can switch it.



You don't need to waste a guest certificate. It doesn't matter if your husband is going or not. Just put one of the reservations in his name. Either one of you can check in for a reservation that is in the other one's name. My husband, myself and our son are on our account and I've checked in for reservations for all three of us at the same time without my husband or son even being present.


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## wed100105

CO skier said:


> Why not, as previously suggested, just use a Guest Certificate to put one of the other travelers down as a Guest for the 5/30 (or 5/28) reservation to get the duplicate name off one of the reservations?


I don't have anyone else over 21. 

I ended up putting my husband's name on one, and I will just handle it at the front desk. 

Does anyone know if you have your name listed as an other owner twice if it works to use both of them for overlapping reservations?


----------



## Daddyaus

Has anyone noticed any increase in availability following the new system launch?


----------



## Avislo

The new system has not launched yet.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Daddyaus said:


> Has anyone noticed any increase in availability following the new system launch?



Given that the new system does launch until sometime after the weekend go live date, NO one has any idea yet.


----------



## ronparise

Daddyaus said:


> Has anyone noticed any increase in availability following the new system launch?



The new rules dont go into effect until next week so its too soon to really judge the effect. But folks are scrambling now to comply with the 48 hour guest confirm rule.  To be sure there are mega renters that are cancelling duplicate speculative reservations rather than buying a $99 guest confirm. But if there is enough profit potential, Im going to pay the fee and add a guests name to hold the reservation. And certainly, if I have committed a reservation to a customer, Im going to pay the $99



Rather than looking at whether more units are available today I like to take a broader, long term view.   I may be the lone ranger here but the way I see it is that the only way "availability" can be increased at 13 months or 10 months is to build more condos or to retire some points.  At 13 months the number high value reservations is not going to change, and the number of points in circulation is not going to change   Using my favorite  example, Mardi Gras; The number of La Belle Maison points in circulation will be the same in Jan 2018, as it is today and the number of condos at La belle maison will be the same in Feb 2019 and  Im betting that every one of them will be reserved within a few minutes after midnight, 13 months in advance of the 2019 celebration. 

so here's my point. The available units at high demand times and places may be distributed among a different set or owners, so they may be occupied by more owners than renters, but availability does not change. There will still be the same number of points chasing the same number of condos and the folks that complain that nothing is available will still be complaining


----------



## paxsarah

ronparise said:


> so here's my point. The available units at high demand times and places may be distributed among a different set or owners, so they may be occupied by more owners than renters, but availability does not change. There will still be the same number of points chasing the same number of condos and the folks that complain that nothing is available will still be complaining



This sums up everything so succinctly I just felt the need to quote it.


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> ... The available units at high demand times and places may be distributed among a different set or owners, so they may be occupied by more owners than renters,


My guess is that this is the purpose of the new rule changes.

The owners who reserve a room for next summer that would have previously been a rental, will not know they benefited from the rule change.  I imagine Wyndham will be assessing the effect of the rule changes.


----------



## am1

Jan M. said:


> You don't need to waste a guest certificate. It doesn't matter if your husband is going or not. Just put one of the reservations in his name. Either one of you can check in for a reservation that is in the other one's name. My husband, myself and our son are on our account and I've checked in for reservations for all three of us at the same time without my husband or son even being present.



Has not always been my experience.  Even when the resort staff knows the other owner is on site.  Had to be changed into my name.  Other resorts do not seem to worry about who actually is the one to check in.


----------



## paxsarah

am1 said:


> Has not always been my experience.  Even when the resort staff knows the other owner is on site.  Had to be changed into my name.  Other resorts do not seem to worry about who actually is the one to check in.



How late would they let you change it back to the actual traveler's name - the day of check-in of the second reservation? Because that would still solve the previous poster's problem. Put it in spouse's name for now, and once you're on site if they say you need to change it to your name, change it to your name. As long as it prevents one of the segments from being canceled prior to the check-in day of the second reservation, it solves the problem.


----------



## Avislo

Talk to the resort, the rule is may be cancelled.  If it not a high demand season and days, the resort may keep it for you.


----------



## am1

paxsarah said:


> How late would they let you change it back to the actual traveler's name - the day of check-in of the second reservation? Because that would still solve the previous poster's problem. Put it in spouse's name for now, and once you're on site if they say you need to change it to your name, change it to your name. As long as it prevents one of the segments from being canceled prior to the check-in day of the second reservation, it solves the problem.



A lot of work to solve something that should not have to be solved as we our owners, not customers or clients.


----------



## paxsarah

am1 said:


> A lot of work to solve something that should not have to be solved as we our owners, not customers or clients.



The real problem is less the work - calling now to change to the spouse's name on the second reservation, and playing dumb at check-in for it ("Oh, it turned out he couldn't make it") isn't a lot of work - but more the expense involved in paying for an extra night that I presume was booked only because the actual correct number of nights was unbookable. Maybe the new system will alleviate/eliminate the underlying problem of certain combinations of nights not being bookable, but it's not going to help this poster's situation because she'll be in the no-refund zone.


----------



## Jan M.

wed100105 said:


> I don't have anyone else over 21.'
> 
> I ended up putting my husband's name on one, and I will just handle it at the front desk.
> 
> Does anyone know if you have your name listed as an other owner twice if it works to use both of them for overlapping reservations?



Have you registered with the new system yet? It seems they have eliminated variations of the same name or your name listed twice. If your reservations are after the 19th I think you would be at risk of having them considered multiple or overlapping reservations if you have any variation of your name on more than one.

We've never had an issue with having a reservation in each of our names for the same dates at the same resort. I've never had to waste or pay for a guest certificate when we've had more than one unit for family and friends.

We added our son to our deed as soon as he turned 21. For 5 years he went to a symposium in DC related to his major and stayed at Old Town Alexandria. The first two years before he turned 21 my husband went with our son, several other students/friends also attending the symposium and the occasional professor. After he turned 21 there was no need for my husband to use vacation days to go and we had no worries about anything happening to the unit with a group of young men on their own as the symposium kept them very busy. For the next three years they gave our son a hard time at check in despite him having a picture ID, a Wyndham platinum card in his name identifying him as an owner, and a reservation in his name. He doesn't have a baby face and is 5'10" so it isn't like he looked young. The second year when I got a call from him at 11:30 at night to deal with them he was really upset because they had pretty much told him they weren't going to let him check in, had even called security and he had no idea what to do at that point. I was running a business at that time, working 60+ hour work weeks and lucky when I got 6 hours of sleep a night. I told my son to give them his phone and tell them that I wanted to speak with them. He did and walked across the room as he knows it never goes well when he hears that tone of voice. He was polite enough to want to spare them the embarrassment of him witnessing what he was sure was coming. I asked them to tell me exactly what the problem was, does he not have a driver's license with his picture on it, a credit card in his name, and a reservation in the name and address that matches his ID? And I asked if they did notice that the information on their screen shows that he IS a platinum owner. When I get really mad I have a very effective tone of voice I use that makes it very clear that the person had best choose their next words very carefully. When they checked him in he never smirked, gloated or anything because he has been on the receiving end of that voice enough times to have sympathy even if they did deserve it.

The last year he went I called ahead and advised them that he had stayed there for the two previous years on his own and if I got a phone call again this year that they wouldn't let him as an owner check in that there were going to be some very unhappy people hopefully no longer working there. Sure enough they were starting to give him a hard time again and he told them that my cell phone number is the number they have listed and suggested that they might want to call his father but under no circumstances would they want to call me again for the 3rd year. By that time he had stayed at two other resorts on his own with no problems checking in so he had the confidence to know they should never have treated him like they did.

The part my husband and I always found hysterically funny was that all these young men and the occasional professor had tubas and euphoniums with them that they wouldn't leave in the car even for the few minutes it should have taken to check in. Symphony quality tubas are not cheap let me tell you! Nothing says we're here to party like a tuba. You would have thought they showed up with cases of beer and bottles of liquor!


----------



## ronparise

ronparise said:


> so they may be occupied by more owners than renters,





CO skier said:


> My guess is that this is the purpose of the new rule changes.
> 
> The owners who reserve a room for next summer that would have previously been a rental, will not know they benefited from the rule change.  I imagine Wyndham will be assessing the effect of the rule changes.




the key word in what you quoted is *may.  *they *may* be occupied by more owners than renters

And I agree, that probably wyndhams purpose here, but there are two problems that they are going to have..  

one is as you say, the people that benefit from these changes, wont know they have benefited.  and there will still be many more people that miss than get those reservations... and they are still going to complain. 

The other problem wyndham is going too have is that I dont think this stuff they are doing is going to work the way they think it will..I think the renters will focus on those rentals that are the most in demand; the ones where they can profit even without discounts and upgrades. The really high demand stuff will all go to renters.


----------



## raygo123

ronparise said:


> the key word in what you quoted is *may.  *they *may* be occupied by more owners than renters
> 
> And I agree, that probably wyndhams purpose here, but there are two problems that they are going to have..
> 
> one is as you say, the people that benefit from these changes, wont know they have benefited.  and there will still be many more people that miss than get those reservations... and they are still going to complain.
> 
> The other problem wyndham is going too have is that I dont think this stuff they are doing is going to work the way they think it will..I think the renters will focus on those rentals that are the most in demand; the ones where they can profit even without discounts and upgrades. The really high demand stuff will all go to renters.


I assume the reason for renters getting the high demand units is not booking first thing 

Sent from my SM-J320P using Tapatalk


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## schoolmarm

Jan M. said:


> The part my husband and I always found hysterically funny was that all these young men and the occasional professor had tubas and euphoniums with them that they wouldn't leave in the car even for the few minutes it should have taken to check in. Symphony quality tubas are not cheap let me tell you! Nothing says we're here to party like a tuba. You would have thought they showed up with cases of beer and bottles of liquor!



HA! HA!  As a music professor, I know where they were going and why!  GOOD FOR THEM.  I take my music education students to conferences, too, and we stay in Wyndham resorts. I have to make sure that if I'm not the first one there to check in that I chose someone who is over 21 for check in. So far no problems.

Good thing your son drove or they would be paying for a seat on the plane for the tuba.    And actually when I was at Indiana, nothing says "PARTY" MORE than a tuba.  That's why they are relegated to the basement where they could play Ride of the Valkeyries in the stairwell echoing up 5 flights of stairs to their hearts content.


----------



## chapjim

am1 said:


> Maybe owner updates will actually be needed for owners.  Or at least that will be the selling point at check in.


"Selling point" in this case will just be a figure of speech.  I can't imagine someone with questions of the types raised here actually buying anything.


----------



## ronparise

raygo123 said:


> I assume the reason for renters getting the high demand units is not booking first thing
> 
> Sent from my SM-J320P using Tapatalk


There are something like 500000 club Wyndham owners and even at the largest resort there are only 1500 units. Not booking first thing is the reason folks don't get reservations now and it will be the reason after next week too


----------



## Braindead

ronparise said:


> The new rules dont go into effect until next week so its too soon to really judge the effect. But folks are scrambling now to comply with the 48 hour guest confirm rule.  To be sure there are mega renters that are cancelling duplicate speculative reservations rather than buying a $99 guest confirm. But if there is enough profit potential, Im going to pay the fee and add a guests name to hold the reservation. And certainly, if I have committed a reservation to a customer, Im going to pay the $99
> 
> 
> 
> Rather than looking at whether more units are available today I like to take a broader, long term view.   I may be the lone ranger here but the way I see it is that the only way "availability" can be increased at 13 months or 10 months is to build more condos or to retire some points.  At 13 months the number high value reservations is not going to change, and the number of points in circulation is not going to change   Using my favorite  example, Mardi Gras; The number of La Belle Maison points in circulation will be the same in Jan 2018, as it is today and the number of condos at La belle maison will be the same in Feb 2019 and  Im betting that every one of them will be reserved within a few minutes after midnight, 13 months in advance of the 2019 celebration.
> 
> so here's my point. The available units at high demand times and places may be distributed among a different set or owners, so they may be occupied by more owners than renters, but availability does not change. There will still be the same number of points chasing the same number of condos and the folks that complain that nothing is available will still be complaining


I will try to go at it from a different angle. You are 100 percent no more units available after the changes than before.
But now 3 owners get to go to Mardi Gras that had tried for years and never got in because of that pesky Rons rental business. They will be telling Wyndham how great the changes are. No additional units but 3 happy owners. Yes there are still lots of other owners that didn't get in and are still complaining. 

The next year maybe only 1 of the 3 owners return for Mardi Gras. So 2 more owners go for the first time after trying for years. This goes on and on for years. It gets rid of some of backlog that's built up for years. 
I know quite a few people that went to Mardi Gras ounce just for the experience. 

In the end if Wyndham ends up with a few more happy owners and a few less renters bragging about the deal they got while relaxing in the hot tub. Wyndham and a lot of owners will deem the changes a huge success. Think of all the owners that never got an upgrade and now get one by clicking a box. They will be ecstatic!!


----------



## ronparise

Braindead said:


> I will try to go at it from a different angle. You are 100 percent no more units available after the changes than before.
> But now 3 owners get to go to Mardi Gras that had tried for years and never got in because of that pesky Rons rental business. They will be telling Wyndham how great the changes are. No additional units but 3 happy owners. Yes there are still lots of other owners that didn't get in and are still complaining.d
> 
> The next year maybe only 1 of the 3 owners return for Mardi Gras. So 2 more owners go for the first time after trying for years. This goes on and on for years. It gets rid of some of backlog that's built up for years.
> I know quite a few people that went to Mardi Gras ounce just for the experience.
> 
> In the end if Wyndham ends up with a few more happy owners and a few less renters bragging about the deal they got while relaxing in the hot tub. Wyndham and a lot of owners will deem the changes a huge success. Think of all the owners that never got an upgrade and now get one by clicking a box. They will be ecstatic!!



What you suggest is certainly possible and no doubt it's wyndhams hope. But
someone else suggested here that the folks that get that Mardi Gras reservation won't know it's because Of the new rules. And If they don't know they aren't going to know to thank Wyndham



Another possibility and what I think is the more likely possibility is that since discounts and upgrades are no longer gonna happen the mega renters will be looking for those reservations across the system that are profitable without discounts and upgrades. Mardi Gras is I think one of those reservations. So I think there will be more rentals of reservations like these not less.


----------



## CO skier

Braindead said:


> The next year maybe only 1 of the 3 owners return for Mardi Gras. So 2 more owners go for the first time after trying for years. This goes on and on for years. It gets rid of some of backlog that's built up for years.
> I know quite a few people that went to Mardi Gras ounce just for the experience.


One of the biggest differences between WorldMark and Club Wyndham is the home resort priority in Club Wyndham.  For popular events, there is a "locust effect" in WM starting about a week before the event -- sometimes sooner.  ARP in Club Wyndham allows deeded owners to avoid much of this effect, since they have to compete only with other owners deeded at that resort, and not have to compete against every interested owner in the whole Club.

After some of the recent changes to WorldMark, there was a noticeable reduction of the "locust effect" at 13 months when the whole system is opened to all owners all at once.  It was clear that a number of renters/megarenters had packed up their tents.  The reduction is more noticeable now that megarenters can no longer transfer millions of credits into their accounts.

If there are changes as a result of the new Club Wyndham rules, I think the results will be seen at the opening of the 10-month booking window.  Owners who want to take their family on the best vacations need to do their part and reserve as soon as the 13 month window opens for ARP at their resort and at the 10 month window when everything opens up.

The rule changes will not be much help for owners who wait to make their reservations.

The Guideline revisions worked in WorldMark, and owners who tried for years for a Hawaiian vacation are staying in WM Hawaii resorts this year, and apparently providing positive feedback about being able to do so.


----------



## Avislo

Same thing for the ARP/RARP/RP windows.  Instead of mega-renter John/Jane Doe taking a position in one or two resorts they can take their position across multiple resorts during the priority reservation period supplementing their activities in the discount or resort special windows.  If a bunch of mega-renters do the same thing then away they go.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> One of the biggest differences between WorldMark and Club Wyndham is the home resort priority in Club Wyndham.  For popular events, there is a "locust effect" in WM starting about a week before the event -- sometimes sooner.  ARP in Club Wyndham allows deeded owners to avoid much of this effect, since they have to compete only with other owners deeded at that resort, and not have to compete against every interested owner in the whole Club.
> 
> After some of the recent changes to WorldMark, there was a noticeable reduction of the "locust effect" at 13 months when the whole system is opened to all owners all at once.  It was clear that a number of renters/megarenters had packed up their tents.  The reduction is more noticeable now that megarenters can no longer transfer millions of credits into their accounts.
> 
> If there are changes as a result of the new Club Wyndham rules, I think the results will be seen at the opening of the 10-month booking window.  Owners who want to take their family on the best vacations need to do their part and reserve as soon as the 13 month window opens for ARP at their resort and at the 10 month window when everything opens up.
> 
> The rule changes will not be much help for owners who wait to make their reservations.
> 
> The Guideline revisions worked in WorldMark, and owners who tried for years for a Hawaiian vacation are staying in WM Hawaii resorts this year, and apparently providing positive feedback about being able to do so.



Some Worldmark mega renters have gone away but others are getting bigger


There are three  kinds of difficult to get reservations in the Worldmark system
1) resorts that are popular all year or through a long season. Hawaii is the perfect example
2) special events or holidays like Mardi Gras
3) reservations at very small resorts like marina dunes or pismo beach

The new Worldmark guidelines made it easier to make a reservation at the most popular all year or long seasonal resorts, but it's still not easy. Folks are still complaining on Facebook

But the new rules didn't touch special events or holidays. With just 250000 credits I can reserve all of the 63 units Worldmark has in New Orleans

And it's still impossible to get a 3 bedroom at west Yellowstone

I agree with you that the new club Wyndham rules are going to have an effect at a lot of the resorts a lot of the time but like at Worldmark the special events and holidays will be untouched. Mardi Gras and bike week and comiccon for example are all taken in the arp window  now. And to a large degree they  are taken by the megarenters. That's not going to change.


----------



## wed100105

Thank you for all the responses. All my reservations are squared away now. I was able to grab a two bedroom presidential for the nights I needed, and I cancelled the others in time. 

I' m going to miss the cancel and rebook so much. I got three nights in a four bedroom presidential at Glacier Canyon in the Dells for 27,000 points and the two following nights in a 2 bedroom presidential for 10,200 points. Tonight when the presidential unit came in the system I booked up all the two bedrooms so I could get the presidential unit for the upgrade and then cancelled all the two bedroom deluxe units. It was fun while it lasted.


----------



## wed100105

Thank you for all the responses. All my reservations are squared away now. I was able to grab a two bedroom presidential for the nights I needed, and I cancelled the others in time. 

I' m going to miss the cancel and rebook so much. I got three nights in a four bedroom presidential at Glacier Canyon in the Dells for 27,000 points and the two following nights in a 2 bedroom presidential for 10,200 points. Tonight when the presidential unit came in the system I booked up all the two bedrooms so I could get the presidential unit for the upgrade and then cancelled all the two bedroom deluxe units. It was fun while it lasted.


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> And it's still impossible to get a 3 bedroom at west Yellowstone


Last year was impossible, this year it is just difficult (there are only ten of these units there, and West Yellowstone is wildly popular in the summer months), and that is just another indication of how things have changed in WorldMark.

It you are finding it impossible to reserve a 3 bedroom at West Yellowstone, I have a reservation there for the middle of June, 2018.  I will offer it to you for the 14,500 credits (expiration dates March 2019 or later, preferred) plus the $29.54 TOT.  (My schedule is somewhat flexible; I will try for another).  I do not want to be involved with a third party rental, so the reservation will have to be in your name, with no name change allowed.  There is a generous cancellation policy, but you may be refunded credits with a shorter expiration date.


----------



## Daddyaus

ronparise said:


> What you suggest is certainly possible and no doubt it's wyndhams hope. But
> someone else suggested here that the folks that get that Mardi Gras reservation won't know it's because Of the new rules. And If they don't know they aren't going to know to thank Wyndham
> 
> 
> 
> Another possibility and what I think is the more likely possibility is that since discounts and upgrades are no longer gonna happen the mega renters will be looking for those reservations across the system that are profitable without discounts and upgrades. Mardi Gras is I think one of those reservations. So I think there will be more rentals of reservations like these not less.



Why won't discounts and upgrades happen anymore? Did I miss something?


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Last year was impossible, this year it is just difficult (there are only ten of these units there, and West Yellowstone is wildly popular in the summer months), and that is just another indication of how things have changed in WorldMark.
> 
> It you are finding it impossible to reserve a 3 bedroom at West Yellowstone, I have a reservation there for the middle of June, 2018.  I will offer it to you for the 14,500 credits (expiration dates March 2019 or later, preferred) plus the $29.54 TOT.  (My schedule is somewhat flexible; I will try for another).  I do not want to be involved with a third party rental, so the reservation will have to be in your name, with no name change allowed.  There is a generous cancellation policy, but you may be refunded credits with a shorter expiration date.


I don't want it but there is someone on Facebook that does.  Or at least they said they did. I'll try and hook you two up

And that's my evidence that nothing has changed. People are still complaining that it's nearly impossible to get certain reservations. The new rules haven't changed things for them


----------



## ronparise

Daddyaus said:


> Why won't discounts and upgrades happen anymore? Did I miss something?





Daddyaus said:


> Why won't discounts and upgrades happen anymore? Did I miss something?



I'm talking about the high demand reservations. I am guessing that the new upgrade checkbox will make it impossible to do the cancel and rebook and upgrade trick that results in getting a 3 bedroom at half the one bedroom price


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> I don't want it but there is someone on Facebook that does.  Or at least they said they did. I'll try and hook you two up


OK, if I can move even one reservation from a renter into the hands of a WorldMark owner to use with their family, that is one small step of progress.  But discreetly please; I do not want a buffalo stampede of inquiries from facebook.




ronparise said:


> And that's my evidence that nothing has changed. People are still complaining that it's nearly impossible to get certain reservations. The new rules haven't changed things for them


Wyndham cannot build enough units for everyone to go where they want when they want. There will always be complaints.  All the management can do is to try to maintain a system that is fair to all owners, including renters.  (Really, is someone reserving more than one unit at a time to rent for a profit fair to other owners?  The owners who led to these new rules do not respect the "share" part of timesharing).

It is generally recognized now that cancel/rebook/upgrade was an unfair manipulation of the system.  The new rules will not completely resolve the issue, but it is a step in the direction of something more fair for all owners.  Megarenters whose profits may be affected by the new rules might not see it that way.


----------



## ronparise

i think you got it

The goal seems to be to make things fair.
But rentalers can thrive in a fair system too

as long as there is some profit potential in some In some locations some of the time; the renters will congregate there


----------



## am1

Not sure what is not considered fair about first come first serve.  If an owner is not staying in a unit then a guest of an owner is.  Either way points that were originally bought from Wyndham were used to reserve the room.  But maybe in 2017 that is not considered fair. A lot can change in 8 years.


----------



## chapjim

Braindead said:


> I will try to go at it from a different angle. You are 100 percent no more units available after the changes than before.
> But now 3 owners get to go to Mardi Gras that had tried for years and never got in because of that pesky Rons rental business. They will be telling Wyndham how great the changes are. No additional units but 3 happy owners. Yes there are still lots of other owners that didn't get in and are still complaining.
> 
> The next year maybe only 1 of the 3 owners return for Mardi Gras. So 2 more owners go for the first time after trying for years. This goes on and on for years. It gets rid of some of backlog that's built up for years.
> I know quite a few people that went to Mardi Gras ounce just for the experience.
> 
> In the end if Wyndham ends up with a few more happy owners and a few less renters bragging about the deal they got while relaxing in the hot tub. Wyndham and a lot of owners will deem the changes a huge success. Think of all the owners that never got an upgrade and now get one by clicking a box. They will be ecstatic!!



It may also be that the owners who are now (supposedly) able to make reservations on their own find out that they are paying more in maintenance fees for a full price reservation than they would have paid Ron (or me or hundreds of other owners) who could offer an incredible bargain as the result of canceling/rebooking and grabbing upgrades.

Under Wyndham's new schemes, who is the winner? Is there a winner?  (Other than Wyndham, of course.)


----------



## tschwa2

I know everyone keeps saying there won't be more inventory but won't there be or at least more MF $'s going toward the same inventory.  If the cancel, rebook, upgrade created another 100 million points in reservations a year between the mega renters and the regular platinum and gold members who used it and now with most just limited upgrades in play won't that mean 75 million points worth of inventory is available that those owners no longer will be booking because they didn't get points back to book again.    (my numbers are arbitrary)

First come- first served seems fair but there is a limit and Wyndham decided that 10 reservations at the same resort for the same night is a fair limit.  I tend to agree.


----------



## scootr5

tschwa2 said:


> I know everyone keeps saying there won't be more inventory but won't there be or at least more MF $'s going toward the same inventory.  If the cancel, rebook, upgrade created another 100 million points in reservations a year between the mega renters and the regular platinum and gold members who used it and now with most just limited upgrades in play won't that mean 75 million points worth of inventory is available that those owners no longer will be booking because they didn't get points back to book again.    (my numbers are arbitrary)
> 
> First come- first served seems fair but there is a limit and Wyndham decided that 10 reservations at the same resort for the same night is a fair limit.  I tend to agree.



Using those numbers, it just means 75 million points worth of fees that Wyndham doesn't have to subsidize (since supposedly the cost between the points chart and the amount of discounted points given was paid as cost of sales).


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## tschwa2

First of all I never think they really subsidize to the extent that discounted points are used- they just pass most if not all of the cost to all of the owners at that resort. So everyone is paying for the discounts that only some platinum and gold members used be that in MF or in the cost of all of those fees that Wyndham charges.  In no way do I think that Wyndham actually set an account aside from developer sales that they withdraw from each year in order to pay the subsidizing that they do (which again I would like to see a line item showing how many discounted points were used at a resort like Bonnet Creek in a year and an equal subsidy from wyndham for the difference based on the discount and/or upgrade reservation.


----------



## Braindead

chapjim said:


> It may also be that the owners who are now (supposedly) able to make reservations on their own find out that they are paying more in maintenance fees for a full price reservation than they would have paid Ron (or me or hundreds of other owners) who could offer an incredible bargain as the result of canceling/rebooking and grabbing upgrades.
> 
> Under Wyndham's new schemes, who is the winner? Is there a winner?


I think the losers are right here on Tug !! The informed owners knowing the ins and outs of the system are the losers.

The winners are the uninformed and rely on Wyndham sales weasels to educate them. That also makes Wyndham a winner.


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## Braindead

In the long run all of us on Tug will be the winners. Because we will learn the new system and share the ins and outs of the new system


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## raygo123

chapjim said:


> It may also be that the owners who are now (supposedly) able to make reservations on their own find out that they are paying more in maintenance fees for a full price reservation than they would have paid Ron (or me or hundreds of other owners) who could offer an incredible bargain as the result of canceling/rebooking and grabbing upgrades.
> 
> Under Wyndham's new schemes, who is the winner? Is there a winner?


Affair program has no winners

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

tschwa2 said:


> First of all I never think they really subsidize to the extent that discounted points are used- they just pass most if not all of the cost to all of the owners at that resort. So everyone is paying for the discounts that only some platinum and gold members used be that in MF or in the cost of all of those fees that Wyndham charges.  In no way do I think that Wyndham actually set an account aside from developer sales that they withdraw from each year in order to pay the subsidizing that they do (which again I would like to see a line item showing how many discounted points were used at a resort like Bonnet Creek in a year and an equal subsidy from wyndham for the difference based on the discount and/or upgrade reservation.


 

There are no subsidiesnof fees because no subsidy is needed. All the fees for all the resorts are paid by the owners. Whether the resorts sit vacant or are full all the time the fees get paid 

Where cancel rebook upgrade isn't fair to the little guy is in the "extra reservations" made with the cancelled points

If I make reservations  for a really popular location at 10 months and then cancel and rebook it. I get points back that I can use again for a popular location and when I cancel and rebook it I can get a reservation for another popular location. So with the same points I get three popular reservations. Two of which should have gone to someone else. That's the unfair part. But as long as we all pay our fees there is nothing Wyndham needs to subsidize

What they feel they have to do is give the non VIP owners an equal chance at those hard to get reservations the cancel/rebooker "stole" from the system

The way it should work is that if there is availability at 60 days before check in (the very definition of a reservation that is not popular, a platinum owner can have it at a discount.  the idea is that you shouldn't be able to get 3 popular reservations with the same block of points


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## CO skier

chapjim said:


> Under Wyndham's new schemes, who is the winner? Is there a winner?


The winners are defined on page 394 of the directory

*The Program is for a Member’s own personal use and enjoyment and not for any commercial purposes.*

These Members are willing to pay the full points cost for their Club Wyndham unit.  After the new rules, some of these Members will vacation in units that, before the rule changes, would have been occupied by a megarenter's customer. The new rules will make some units no longer sufficiently profitable for the commercial renters.  Owner Members and their families will move in, instead.

A megarenter who relied extensively or exclusively on the cancel/rebook/upgrade for their business model, will have to increase the size of their ownership after the new rules to maintain the same volume of units, even if they can rely on a 50% cancel/rebook discount some of the time.  That will increase the cost of goods.

Or they will find a different commercial niche, and rules are changed again in the future.


----------



## ronparise

Braindead said:


> In the long run all of us on Tug will be the winners. Because we will learn the new system and share the ins and outs of the new system



And in ten years they will take action to curtail whatever abuse we figure out


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## ronparise

CO skier said:


> The winners are defined on page 394 of the directory
> 
> *The Program is for a Member’s own personal use and enjoyment and not for any commercial purposes.*
> 
> These Members are willing to pay the full points cost for their Club Wyndham unit.  After the new rules, some of these Members will vacation in units that, before the rule changes, would have been occupied by a megarenter's customer. The new rules will make some units no longer sufficiently profitable for the commercial renters.  Owner Members and their families will move in, instead.
> 
> A megarenter who relied extensively or exclusively on the cancel/rebook/upgrade for their business model, will have to increase the size of their ownership after the new rules to maintain the same volume of units, even if they can rely on a 50% cancel/rebook discount some of the time.  That will increase the cost of goods.
> 
> Or they will find a different commercial niche, and rules are changed again in the future.



Exactly right

And My prediction is that some megarenters will get bigger and some new small niche rental businesses will be created and before too long There will be more units occupied by renters than today


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## CO skier

ronparise said:


> Exactly right
> 
> And My prediction is that some megarenters will get bigger and some new small niche rental businesses will be created and before too long There will be more units occupied by renters than today


Opinions vary and time will tell.  If a waitlist is ever introduced at some point, things will change again.  Who knows, a waitlist might improve reservation success for Members using the Club for personal vacations, and some megarenters get squeezed.

One thing is certain, no one should rely on current circumstances, or circumstances next week or next month, to continue indefinitely.  If I were trying to make a business in something, the risk of change would always be one of my primary concerns.


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## am1

If I would have sat on sidelines because of risk of change 10 years ago I never would have been able to start my business. Within the year the market for transferring points to other owners dropped a lot which meant I had to adapt and get into rentals.


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## CO skier

ronparise said:


> And it's still impossible to get a 3 bedroom at west Yellowstone


May 31 and June 1 in 2018 are available as stand alone nights in a 3 BR at this moment, but they will not last long, I am sure.  They would make for a couple of good nights as part of a Grouped Reservation

edit to add:  Almost a couple hours later, and the two nights are still there.  I know it is early in the season, but some schools are out by then.  With how popular these particular units are, and with 225,000 members in WorldMark, I would think that these two nights would not have lasted 10 minutes in inventory.

... 6 hours later, now, and the 3 bedroom nights are still available.  Unbelievable.

2 nights would be enough time to see the main Yellowstone attractions during a time when crowds are modest by summer standards.  A waitlist request for 2-3 nights before and 2-3 nights after would sure to be a Level 1 at 13 months ahead.  There is a good chance that one or possibly both waitlists hit, and that would make for one of the best vacations WorldMark has to offer, imo.

I have been to Yellowstone at that time of the year (a mild snow flurry moved through one day; No mosquitoes! the whole week) and there was a lot of baby wildlife to see in addition to the geological features.  It was a great time, even when we accidentally found ourselves in the midst of a Buffalo herd as part of one of the hikes.

The WorldMark rule changes are delivering, but it is incumbent on owners to claim the availability the rule changes create.

Either these two days offer insufficient profit potential, or a LOT of megarenters have exited WorldMark.


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## scootr5

It's a small sample size to be sure, but for the last few years Glacier Canyon has been very difficult to get weekend or prime time bookings. This week I have seen tons of availability show up for weekends in September through February.


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## Avislo

scootr5 said:


> It's a small sample size to be sure, but for the last few years Glacier Canyon has been very difficult to get weekend or prime time bookings. This week I have seen tons of availability show up for weekends in September through February.



This could be people holding units to rent later and they could not come up with guest names of paying cutomers for the Guest Certificates going to the dump.  Especially, if there was a John/Jane Doe that specialized in Glacier Canyon.


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## 55plus

scootr5 said:


> It's a small sample size to be sure, but for the last few years Glacier Canyon has been very difficult to get weekend or prime time bookings. This week I have seen tons of availability show up for weekends in September through February.



It could be the mega renters dumping their reservations Their options are cancel the reservations, spend $99 each to put them in a bogus names to hold them or forfeit the points. It's a win win for owners and small time renters.


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## scootr5

morrisjim said:


> It could be the mega renters dumping their reservations Their options are cancel the reservations, spend $99 each to put them in a bogus names to hold them or forfeit the points. It's a win win for owners and small time renters.



That was my guess as well. A mix of unit sizes, but a lot of 1 bedrooms. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## bnoble

ronparise said:


> i think you got it
> 
> The goal seems to be to make things fair.
> But rentalers can thrive in a fair system too
> 
> as long as there is some profit potential in some In some locations some of the time; the renters will congregate there



And that's as it should be. I don't think anyone believes renting should not happen. Instead, it was the use of a mechanism (short-notice discounts/upgrades) intended to soak up "the leftovers" in a way that wasn't just getting leftovers. These new changes reduce some of that, bringing the system closer in line to how it was expected to operate.


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## dagger1

I already had a 1 BR and 2 x 2 BR's booked at Riverside Suites the end of July, needed another 1 BR.  Have been looking every day for two months...  Today several popped up, and I was able to snag the 1 BR I needed!!
I don't know if it's inventory being dumped or not, but I'm pumped!!!


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## Braindead

If you are Gold and especially Platinum and have not credit pooled your 2018 points. I don't think it's not a bad idea to not do it. A Platinum member can wait till December 31 2018 to decide which year you want your leftover points placed in. If your sure you don't need them in 2019 you put them in 2020 and you will have until 12-31-2020 instead of 5-18-2020 to use the points.

Regarding bnoble comments. If renters focus on what's left in the last 60 days. I don't think you would have to many complaints. All the power to the mega renter if they can make their living on availability in the last 60 days


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## Braindead

dagger1 said:


> I already had a 1 BR and 2 x 2 BR's booked at Riverside Suites the end of July, needed another 1 BR.  Have been looking every day for two months...  Today several popped up, and I was able to snag the 1 BR I needed!!
> I don't know if it's inventory being dumped or not, but I'm pumped!!!


Glad to hear an owner already benefiting from the changes. Sounds like there will be more from scootr5 comments on availability he has seen


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## raygo123

I'm still debating the 108,000 points I still have for 2018.  I have yet to book my fall vacation and I use a 1 BDRM.  I'm gold, so right now I can deposit till tomorrow under the old system. In my case does it really matter?  Not really enough for ARP, an d if pooled, that will give me 300,000 points, 123,000 expiring in June '19 and 82,000 in June '20.  Plus, my use year 490,000 points. All points came from cancel and rebook.

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## Avislo

raygo123 said:


> I'm still debating the 108,000 points I still have for 2018.  I have yet to book my fall vacation and I use a 1 BDRM.  I'm gold, so right now I can deposit till tomorrow under thee does it really matter?  Not really enough for ARP, an d if pooled, that will give me 300,000 points, 123,000 expiring in June '19 and 82,000 in June '20.  Plu old system. In my cass, my use year 490,000 points. All points came from cancel and rebook.
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk



The old credit pool for deposits goes away today.


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## ronparise

Braindead said:


> Glad to hear an owner already benefiting from the changes. Sounds like there will be more from scootr5 comments on availability he has seen


I see a couple of ares where the mega renters can carve out a living. There will be the last minute stuff but as you suggest that's going to be tough

I always had a number of regulars that knew how the system works and they would contact me ahead of the 10 month mark. I think I could build on this base and develop a customer base that would plan 10 months ahead. And if I'm right I can offer a discount on one bedroom units (2 half priced one bedrooms are significantly cheaper than 1 three bedroom and they sleep the same number of guests) 

And then there are the the event and holiday weeks that are profitable even at full price and with two guest confirms. you don't even have to be a VIP to take advantage of these opportunities


It's going to take some time to transition  to wherever we are going but we are going to get there. What we are seeing now with all the cancellations is part of that transitioning.  At least thats my thinking based on my own experience and conversations I've had with a number of renters


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## Roger830

Monday at 8am I called to credit pool my 2018 points, call answered in 35 minutes.

The next day just some housekeeping credits got pooled.

Once again I called at 8am, at 10:15 I was told that there was a message in my file that points didn't pool and will be corrected over the next week.

For some odd reason, I have my doubts it will happen. It didn't hit my charge card yet.


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## Avislo

ronparise said:


> I see a couple of ares where the mega renters can carve out a living. There will be the last minute stuff but as you suggest that's going to be tough
> 
> I always had a number of regulars that knew how the system works and they would contact me ahead of the 10 month mark. I think I could build on this base and develop a customer base that would plan 10 months ahead. And if I'm right I can offer a discount on one bedroom units (2 half priced one bedrooms are significantly cheaper than 1 three bedroom and they sleep the same number of guests)
> 
> And then there are the the event and holiday weeks that are profitable even at full price and with two guest confirms. you don't even have to be a VIP to take advantage of these opportunities
> 
> 
> It's going to take some time to transition  to wherever we are going but we are going to get there. What we are seeing now with all the cancellations is part of that transitioning.  At least thats my thinking based on my own experience and conversations I've had with a number of renters



If you are right, then my guess is the better reservations being dumped will be gone by close of business today or no later than 48 hours after the new site comes up.

There are some good reservations out their.  This one is with upgrade and Platinum discount.  Did not check much more at Myrtle Beach, but their were other short term dates with the green box under the 1st available date option for Southeast.

Resort:
Wyndham Ocean Boulevard
Unit type:
2 Bedroom Deluxe
Check-In date:
06/04/2017
Length of stay:
3 nights



*Unit is available for:* 13m 58s


*This reservation is being made within the Express Reservation period.*
Help
Total points required:
24,000


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## Braindead

ronparise said:


> I see a couple of ares where the mega renters can carve out a living. There will be the last minute stuff but as you suggest that's going to be tough
> 
> I always had a number of regulars that knew how the system works and they would contact me ahead of the 10 month mark. I think I could build on this base and develop a customer base that would plan 10 months ahead. And if I'm right I can offer a discount on one bedroom units (2 half priced one bedrooms are significantly cheaper than 1 three bedroom and they sleep the same number of guests)
> 
> And then there are the the event and holiday weeks that are profitable even at full price and with two guest confirms. you don't even have to be a VIP to take advantage of these opportunities
> 
> 
> It's going to take some time to transition  to wherever we are going but we are going to get there. What we are seeing now with all the cancellations is part of that transitioning.  At least thats my thinking based on my own experience and conversations I've had with a number of renters


If the renters focus on the smallest units the complaints will go way down. No more 3 bedrooms at half price of a studio.

Another thing I don't think renters have thought of is how difficult it will be to get the volume of units for event weeks they have enjoyed in the past. Online ARP will allow all owners to gain access at the same second instead of being on hold waiting their turn. Instead of VC tied up making your 10 unit reservation while others are locked out on hold. You will all be online at the same time.


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## Braindead

Instead of Mardi Gras all gone in 5 or 10 minutes. Now they might be all gone 1 minute or less


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## ronparise

Braindead said:


> If the renters focus on the smallest units the complaints will go way down. No more 3 bedrooms at half price of a studio.
> 
> Another thing I don't think renters have thought of is how difficult it will be to get the volume of units for event weeks they have enjoyed in the past. Online ARP will allow all owners to gain access at the same second instead of being on hold waiting their turn. Instead of VC tied up making your 10 unit reservation while others are locked out on hold. You will all be online at the same time.



Just like Worldmark.
no question things will be different and I may not get the number of reservations there that I want but there are other events at other times in other places

This thing may well spell the end of commercial renting in club Wyndham. But that's what everyone thought 10 years ago when the last round of changes were made.  I'm betting that someone will figure out how to make a living under the new rules, just like they did 10 years ago

The new renter may be the guy with a 2 million point account that rents 1.5 million of them to pay all his maintenance fees and takes one "free" vacation a year. And I see an opportunity helping those folks to do it


Bottom line is that the good  stuff will still go quickly. And the folks that snooze will loose

Things will be easier for our west coast friends. They won't have to be up at 4 am. Their day will start at 9 pm the day before


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## Braindead

ronparise said:


> Just like Worldmark.
> no question things will be different and I may not get the number of reservations there that I want but there are other events at other times in other places
> 
> This thing may well spell the end of commercial renting in club Wyndham. But that's what everyone thought 10 years ago when the last round of changes were made.  I'm betting that someone will figure out how to make a living under the new rules, just like they did 10 years ago
> 
> The new renter may be the guy with a 2 million point account that rents 1.5 million of them to pay all his maintenance fees and takes one "free" vacation a year. And I see an opportunity helping those folks to do it
> 
> 
> Bottom line is that the good  stuff will still go quickly. And the folks that snooze will loose
> 
> Things will be easier for our west coast friends. They won't have to be up at 4 am. Their day will start at 9 pm the day before


Renting was never easy money. I think we all agree that it's going to be even tougher to make it worth while now.

Totally agree renting isn't going away. Renting will definitely be easier on a smaller scale as you say. The good stuff will always go fast but now maybe less will go to renters.

If I do 2-5 rentals a year. I'm going to focus on the good stuff also


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## raygo123

Avislo said:


> The old credit pool for deposits goes away today.


Since I am VIP gold, I will get more time to use my points if I wait and pool them under the new system.  Now till may 18, later till end of 2020.  Plus still have ARP on my 2018 points.  

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

Braindead said:


> If I do 2-5 rentals a year. I'm going to focus on the good stuff also



So will we all

Which is why I'm saying that the ratio of renters to owners will, over time, probably tilt to more renters at the most popular times and places.


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## Braindead

ronparise said:


> So will we all
> 
> Which is why I'm saying that the ratio of renters to owners will, over time, probably tilt to more renters at the most popular times and places.


Agree except where ARP is needed. I'm not going to buy a high MF contract just for ARP in hopes of renting.  For the most part I think small renters will focus on family-friends and availability at 10 months.

The owners that bought for ARP will see the biggest change as far as availability.


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## Braindead

The most popular resorts at the most popular times is where the mega renters paid the bills. By getting those larger units at half price of a studio. That's coming to an end or cut way back. That's where all of us will see a big change in availability also. There isn't going to be 3  or more units tied up to end up with 1 at a big discount

Owner after owner made plans and went to their second or third choice on vacation. Only to find availability at 60 days or less at their first choice when it was to late to change their plans


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## paxsarah

raygo123 said:


> Since I am VIP gold, I will get *more time to use my points* if I wait and pool them under the new system.  Now till may 18, later till end of 2020.  Plus still have ARP on my 2018 points.



Technically, you won't get more time to use your points - you will have less time in which to use them, but they will expire at a later date. If you pool them today, you would have three years in which to use them, until 5/18/20. If you wait and deposit them to 2020 under the new system, as VIP gold you would have the first 9 months of 2018 to use them, and if you didn't use them in 2018 then you'd get all of 2020 (but none of 2019, or you could do all of 2019 but none of 2020). But you would preserve ARP in 2018 if that matters. So 21 months of potential usage under the new system, vs. 36 months under the old system.


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## vacationhopeful

What will change is the HIGH VOLUME of bargain basement priced rentals. PRICE SHOCK for RENTALs.

And the buyers (renters) will screamed loud and long ... owners should expect a lot of 'shopping' and 'the check is in the mail' stalls. But the issue is, will renters lock onto a rental dates EARLY or think they can get their best inside the 14 days before checkin.

In the past, owners booked at Full Price multiple units covering the same dates, did the cancel/rebook/upgrade at 45-60 days before checkin and had at least 3-6+ units of various sizes for every date. Being a VIP Platinum and with ARP, you had the points and discount to make money over your MFs & one needed GCs costs.

The new rules: multiple owners needed on the account, overlapping reservations rules, waitlist for upgrades ... these changes alter the playing field. And owners will adapt ... but will renters lag 2 or 3 years behind the price increases. Will renters do AirB&B? Will renters change venues .. doing more cruises, private rentals, HomeAway ... as the bargain basement TS rental prices vanish?

Is Wyndham betting the (former) renters will be come owners/buyers? Not in my view of the world ..... they might but I expect they will find other vacation options. The "retired with a FULL PENSION" old person is almost extinct ... in the private job market ... a BIG change from 15+ years ago. And cruise ships with multi-tier marketing plus BIG cash generating options on every cruise (tours, dining upgrades, bars, evening entertainment, cabins prices, etc). Pirates or locusts in the Carribean ... cruise down to South America or up to Iceland. Timeshare rentals are 1 dimensional ... you are renting a bed .... no food, no tours, small bar, one boring place with has OFF SEASONS with lower occupancy & lower income rates.... but the cost of operating is just the same. And the TS owner plays less points to use.

Still thinking and figuring out the WHAT and HOW ... opinions?


----------



## uscav8r

Braindead said:


> If you are Gold and especially Platinum and have not credit pooled your 2018 points. I don't think it's not a bad idea to not do it.



Wow! A TRIPLE negative!


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## CO skier

uscav8r said:


> Wow! A TRIPLE negative!


I thought the same thing when I read it.  I have never seen one before and am still trying to figure it out.


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## ronparise

vacationhopeful said:


> What will change is the HIGH VOLUME of bargain basement priced rentals. PRICE SHOCK for RENTALs.
> 
> And the buyers (renters) will screamed loud and long ... owners should expect a lot of 'shopping' and 'the check is in the mail' stalls. But the issue is, will renters lock onto a rental dates EARLY or think they can get their best inside the 14 days before checkin.
> 
> In the past, owners booked at Full Price multiple units covering the same dates, did the cancel/rebook/upgrade at 45-60 days before checkin and had at least 3-6+ units of various sizes for every date. Being a VIP Platinum and with ARP, you had the points and discount to make money over your MFs & one needed GCs costs.
> 
> The new rules: multiple owners needed on the account, overlapping reservations rules, waitlist for upgrades ... these changes alter the playing field. And owners will adapt ... but will renters lag 2 or 3 years behind the price increases. Will renters do AirB&B? Will renters change venues .. doing more cruises, private rentals, HomeAway ... as the bargain basement TS rental prices vanish?
> 
> Is Wyndham betting the (former) renters will be come owners/buyers? Not in my view of the world ..... they might but I expect they will find other vacation options. The "retired with a FULL PENSION" old person is almost extinct ... in the private job market ... a BIG change from 15+ years ago. And cruise ships with multi-tier marketing plus BIG cash generating options on every cruise (tours, dining upgrades, bars, evening entertainment, cabins prices, etc). Pirates or locusts in the Carribean ... cruise down to South America or up to Iceland. Timeshare rentals are 1 dimensional ... you are renting a bed .... no food, no tours, small bar, one boring place with has OFF SEASONS with lower occupancy & lower income rates.... but the cost of operating is just the same. And the TS owner plays less points to use.
> 
> Still thinking and figuring out the WHAT and HOW ... opinions?




You ought not  be affected with all those sno-bird weeks  You were charging market prices, and that should be enough for you to make a buck or two... And you have enough for 10 weeks in a one bedroom at Royal Vista, and if Im right you should be able to get the discount on the one bedrooms  so 154000 X.65= 100 x6.5 = $650  you get 10 guest confirms so you're good for the dummy name, then $100 more for your guest  at just $1500 a week thats $800 profit each and you have  cancelled points left over for something else


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## Mynisa

I've been looking into buying some re-sale points. I rent several times a year for Wisconsin Dells Glacier Canyon as we live very close. I've been reading up online trying to figure out how the system works and best points to buy. My plan was that I don't care about home resort just want lowest fees I can find. I plan on only trying to make last minute stays when weather is going to be nice. Seems lowest prices on low fee home resorts are of course ones with no points till the following year, but I read somewhere you can borrow next UY points when booking last minute. Do these new rules change that? Any thoughts are greatly appreciated on my plan as I am unsure if I have a handle on how the system works. Also any input to a good home resort costs would be great. Thanks for any helpful responses I hope to get, so much info!


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## ecwinch

Just cant wait until Monday when we all get to start playing "where to kick the vending machine".... if in fact the vending machine even works on Monday


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## scootr5

CO skier said:


> I thought the same thing when I read it.  I have never seen one before and am still trying to figure it out.



Simple - he's saying it's a bad idea to not do it.


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## uscav8r

scootr5 said:


> Simple - he's saying it's a bad idea to not do it.



In other words, it's a good idea to do it. Much simpler!


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## Sandy VDH

I had a bunch of pooled points from a few years ago that were expiring this year.  I also had nearly a 1M points from this year, with 1/3  of the year passed I have 3/4 of the points left.  So given that I have a bunch of points both this year and next year available, it was easier for me to pool them, and give me to 2020, albeit early 2020.  My other option was to wait until end of this year to move then into next year (2018) or the following year (2019).  

But this got me to thinking, Not sure if I am articulating it well here, but....

Again here I am making assumptions.  
Here is what the enhancement doc says...




It says you can DEPOSIT your points into the next Use year or two Use years out.  So I need to figure out what expiration DATE you get when you DEPOSIT.  I suspect you get to the end date of your next use year.  So since I am Jan - Dec Use Year, I would get if I picked 1 year out to deposit, those points expiring on 12/31/18.  Now as a Platinum I get to 12/31/17 to make that decision.  But if I was something other than Platinum, it is NOT the end of the Use Year (it is 3, 6 or 9 months extension from the start of the use year).  If you are a lowly non status member and you have 3 months into the year, so until 3/31/17 (already past I know but I am using this for illustration NOT for actually accomplishing it) to make that deposit decision.  

I have to suspect that you don't just get a date in the future 1 or 2 years from today, because if you picked 1 year on 3/31/17 your points really would only extended out 3 months.  No I think what will happen is your points expiring for a use year ending on 12/31/17 will NOW expire on 12/31/18, 1 year out.  And this is regardless of the date the deposit request was made.  So you move out  the actual expiration date 1 or 2 years to end end of your use year, which unlike pooling you got 3 years from the DATE of THE POOLING Transaction.

So I think that is going to be how it works, because other wise you are not really extending points out 1 or 2 years.  

The Great, the Good and the Bad of the DEPOSITING vs POOLING rule change
*
The Great*
As a VIP Platinum you are NEVER at risk of losing CURRENT year points, because by 12/31 of any year you can make the choice on the very last day of the year.  The only decision you have to make is do I need more points next year or the following year.  Remember you can always roll forward.  Moving 2017 into 2018 use year, still leaves 2018 points left to roll ahead if you want.  The caveat, you can only roll points once, not roll a second time,  So you are at risk of losing previous years deposited points, but NEVER current year.

*The Good*
Just compare that with POOLING Now, So for Non-VIP Status people, this is not much different from now if you  pick extended 2 years.  Why?  Non-VIP had to make the decision to pool BEFORE the use year started.  So by 12/31/16 you had to make decision about points expiring on 12/31/17.  If you did pool on the NYE 2016 date you got your points now expiring out to 12/31/19 (3 years from Date of Pooling), but really only a 2 year extension on the expiration date.   So if what I guess is true when you deposit you could end up with points expiring the same span of time as if you where pooling the points today.  OK, so that is on par with non-VIPs. 

You loose a bit as VIP as you could have gotten another 3, 6 or 9 months life out of those points, but what you lose in time you can make up for by allowing you to wait until the end of the year to decide.  If you use up all your points anyway you save your money on pooling/depositing costs.  So a bit of loss but, but a potential for a  bit of saving in $$ because you WILL know you have used up all your points or NOT instead of projecting your usage out to the end of the use year from the date of your old VIP pooling deposit extension dates. 

*The POOR*
So you don't lose the date extension of pooling, BUT and that is a big BUT, you do lose the ability to use those pooled points immediately without having to be concerned about borrowing points rules, which are more restrictive than using points.  So now with Pooling gone and Depositing available you can ONLY BORROW points during the EXPRESS Reservation window which is 90 days out.  With Pooled points you could make a reservation during STANDARD or EXPRESS windows. So the Borrowing concept has gotten a lot tighter.  Taking Standard reservations out of the mix for DEPOSITED points. 

*So to POOL or NOT to POOL before the deadline. * 
So if you don't know what you are doing with points in the future but you want to leave your options open to use those for STANDARD Reservations then Pooling is Better.  If you ARP a lot and use almost all of your points anyway, then POOLING will not buy you much.  If your VIP, especially Platinum the Express only reservations is a HUGE different in the way the points are handled. 

Pick your approach. I think you have tonight (are they still open??) or tomorrow to do this.


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## Avislo

Unless you know something I do not.  Wyndham call centers for reservations are now closed for the day and will not re-open until Monday at the earlist and unless the on-line system comes up sometime this week-end, it shuts down at 11:45 and does not come back until Monday, if back on time.


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## Braindead

uscav8r said:


> Wow! A TRIPLE negative!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your right ! I messed that up royally. Should have left out don't or not. English never was my strong point. I was confused myself when I reread my post.


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## raygo123

paxsarah said:


> Technically, you won't get more time to use your points - you will have less time in which to use them, but they will expire at a later date. If you pool them today, you would have three years in which to use them, until 5/18/20. If you wait and deposit them to 2020 under the new system, as VIP gold you would have the first 9 months of 2018 to use them, and if you didn't use them in 2018 then you'd get all of 2020 (but none of 2019, or you could do all of 2019 but none of 2020). But you would preserve ARP in 2018 if that matters. So 21 months of potential usage under the new system, vs. 36 months under the old system.


Technically, that's what I said, "use them".

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## CO skier

scootr5 said:


> Simple - he's saying it's a bad idea to not do it.


I figured it out by thinking of it in terms of a double-reverse flea flicker.


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## raygo123

CO skier said:


> I thought the same thing when I read it.  I have never seen one before and am still trying to figure it out.


actually, it ain't no dtriple negative.  If it had been all one sentence then it would have been a triple.

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## raygo123

ronparise said:


> You ought not  be affected with all those sno-bird weeks  You were charging market prices, and that should be enough for you to make a buck or two... And you have enough for 10 weeks in a one bedroom at Royal Vista, and if Im right you should be able to get the discount on the one bedrooms  so 154000 X.65= 100 x6.5 = $650  you get 10 guest confirms so you're good for the dummy name, then $100 more for your guest  at just $1500 a week thats $800 profit each and you have  cancelled points left over for something else


We always go to pompano beach every February.  I was planning to book a studio and a one bedroom in hopes of an upgrade to get an upgrade on the studio to a one bedroom per your suggestion.  Will that not mess with her plans?

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## uscav8r

raygo123 said:


> actually, it ain't no dtriple negative.  If it had been all one sentence then it would have been a triple.
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk



"I don't think it's not a bad idea to not do it."

One sentence. Three negatives. Ain't nothin' but a thang. 


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## ronparise

raygo123 said:


> We always go to pompano beach every February.  I was planning to book a studio and a one bedroom in hopes of an upgrade to get an upgrade on the studio to a one bedroom per your suggestion.  Will that not mess with her plans?
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


There are no studios at royal vista which is where she owns a million plus points


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## raygo123

uscav8r said:


> "I don't think it's not a bad idea to not do it."
> 
> One sentence. Three negatives. Ain't nothin' but a thang.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your right me bad

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## Bigrob

raygo123 said:


> We always go to pompano beach every February.  I was planning to book a studio and a one bedroom in hopes of an upgrade to get an upgrade on the studio to a one bedroom per your suggestion.  Will that not mess with her plans?
> 
> Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk



I believe you mentioned you were gold. I think you will have to choose between getting your gold discount or getting an upgrade. If you cancel and rebook the studio for the discount you will be at the back of a long line for upgrades at 45 days.

You'd have to look at whether it was better to get the upgrade or the discount. If it's better to get the discount (I think that will be the case most of the time) then cancel and rebook the studio as you usually would, mark your request for upgrade, and hope for the best. But if you really need a 1BR, you can't afford to cancel it in the hopes of it falling to you.

On the other hand, if it did turn out to be better for you to upgrade, then don't cancel/rebook the studio. If you book during ARP or probably even at 10-months, you'll likely get an upgrade when you cancel the 1BR... but you will want to hold it until you have reached your upgrade window (45 days). You don't want a platinum member to scoop it up between days 45-60. So hold it until your studio is eligible for upgrade, and you'll likely be at the front of the line if you booked early that way.

There are probably "tricks" to enhance your probability of success in trying to get both the discount and the upgrade. But like the current tricks, they involve risk. The tricks I can envision have been enabled by the relaxed reservation requirements.


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## raygo123

ronparise said:


> There are no studios at royal vista which is where she owns a million plus points


Also owns at sea garden

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## Bigrob

Bigrob said:


> I believe you mentioned you were gold. I think you will have to choose between getting your gold discount or getting an upgrade. If you cancel and rebook the studio for the discount you will be at the back of a long line for upgrades at 45 days.
> 
> You'd have to look at whether it was better to get the upgrade or the discount. If it's better to get the discount (I think that will be the case most of the time) then cancel and rebook the studio as you usually would, mark your request for upgrade, and hope for the best. But if you really need a 1BR, you can't afford to cancel it in the hopes of it falling to you.
> 
> On the other hand, if it did turn out to be better for you to upgrade, then don't cancel/rebook the studio. If you book during ARP or probably even at 10-months, you'll likely get an upgrade when you cancel the 1BR... but you will want to hold it until you have reached your upgrade window (45 days). You don't want a platinum member to scoop it up between days 45-60. So hold it until your studio is eligible for upgrade, and you'll likely be at the front of the line if you booked early that way.
> 
> There are probably "tricks" to enhance your probability of success in trying to get both the discount and the upgrade. But like the current tricks, they involve risk. The tricks I can envision have been enabled by the relaxed reservation requirements.



And of course, make sure there actually IS a studio unit before making these plans, LOL.


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## markb53

ronparise said:


> Things will be easier for our west coast friends. They won't have to be up at 4 am. Their day will start at 9 pm the day before



I am really looking forward to that part.


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## Avislo

Copied from a Club Wyndham Pass Directory (dated 2017):

CLUB AND SPECIAL DESIGNATION LEGEND

CW Indicates a CLUB WYNDHAM® Resort
WM Indicates a WorldMark® Resort
WCB Indicates a WYNDHAM CLUB BRASIL℠ resort
CC Indicates a resort that is part of The Central Collection

Of interest is the reference to the Central Collection.  This is the 2nd reference I have seen  to this designation.  The first was in a e-mail.

UPDATE:

Called Wyndham, option 3 option 2 on what was the Central Collection vs. for example Club Wyndham Select.  The representative indicated the Central Collection has nothing to do with Club Wyndham Plus.  These are Worldmark properties.  Something does not sound right about this.


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## ronparise

It seems that they have renamed "The Avenue Collection"


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## Avislo

The Central Collection identified in the Wyndham Club Pass Directory.  CC is Central Collection.

WORLDMARK SCOTTSDALE wm CC

WORLDMARK SAN DIEGO - BALBOA PARK WM CC

WORLDMARK SAN DIEGO - INN AT THE PARK WM  CC

WORLDMARK SAN DIEGO - MISSION VALLEY WM CC

WYNDHAM HARBOUR LIGHTS CW CC

WORLDMARK SAN FRANCISCO WM CC

WYNDHAM CANTERBURY AT SAN FRANCISCO CW CC

WYNDHAM OLD TOWN ALEXANDRIA CW CC

WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS AT NATIONAL HARBOR CW CC

WYNDHAM AT WAIKIKI BEACH WALK® CW CC

WYNDHAM VACATION RESORTS ROYAL GARDEN AT WAIKIKI CW cc

WYNDHAM GRAND CHICAGO RIVERFRONT CW CC

WORLDMARK NEW ORLEANS - AVENUE PLAZA & WYNDHAM AVENUE PLAZA WM CW CC

WYNDHAM LA BELLE MAISON CW CC

WORLDMARK LAS VEGAS - BOULEVARD WM CC

WORLDMARK LAS VEGAS - SPENCER STREET WM CC

WORLDMARK LAS VEGAS - TROPICANA AVENUE & WYNDHAM TROPICANA AT LAS VEGAS WM CW CC

WYNDHAM DESERT BLUE CW CC

WYNDHAM GRAND DESERT CW CC

WYNDHAM SKYLINE TOWER CW CC

WYNDHAM MIDTOWN 45 AT NEW YORK CITY CW CC

WYNDHAM LA CASCADA CW CC

WYNDHAM RIVERSIDE SUITES CW CC

WORLDMARK SEATTLE - THE CAMLIN WM CC

WORLDMARK VANCOUVER - THE CANADIAN WM CC

WORLDMARK VICTORIA WM CC


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## CandyLancaster

Jan M. said:


> The website will be open 24/7 too!
> 
> Am I reading this correctly? They way I read the changes you will have 48 hours after a reservation is confirmed to add a guest name if you have have more than one reservation for the same dates. If I am interpreting this correctly it will kill renting for many owners!


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## CandyLancaster

spackler said:


> Can't you just put a fake name for the guest & change it to a real one once you secure a renter?


That makes sense to me but that would use up some of your guest reservations.   However, I think I'll use that idea!  Thanks for sharing!!!!


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## gottashiner

CandyLancaster said:


> That makes sense to me but that would use up some of your guest reservations.   However, I think I'll use that idea!  Thanks for sharing!!!!


I just got an email that a reservation was cancelled by Wyndham.  It had my husband's name on it and there was no overlapping reservation with his name.


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## CandyLancaster

Jan M. said:


> I'm guessing they will tell you that is why as a platinum owner you get 15 free guest confirmations per 1M points. You will be required to use your free guest confirmations and you will have to use another one or pay for additional ones if your free ones have all been used to change the name on the reservations if your relatives plans change. Wyndham isn't going to back down or change anything because you or any other owners aren't happy. I have to say I'm really surprised that Wyndham is making all these different changes. They seem to have put some real thought into how to improve things for the bulk of the owners while putting a stop to the mega renters and hindering the point managers in a big way too.
> 
> While I don't have to like the changes I do understand why the changes they are instituting have become necessary. They are not just to put a stop to the mega renters and point managers who book up the best reservations in the prime weeks making it hard for the bulk of owners to get stays. It also means that owners who book multiple units and sit on them until "the last minute in case plans change" won't be able to hoard inventory. You can book a stay for yourself and if you want to also book additional units for friends or family you need to have a commitment from them or waste a guest confirmation. It also means no more booking several small units and several big units at the 10 and 13 month windows to be able to cancel and rebook them to get the discount and free upgrades when your discount window hits to make sure you end up with as many units as you want in case you lose one or two in the cancel and rebook process. There are a lot of VIP owners who do that and it ties up a lot of inventory that they have no intention of using. This solution addresses the non VIP owners complaints about VIP owners abuses in manipulating the system in ways Wyndham never intended. Yes I know the sales people are the ones who taught us to do it.


So if Wyndham never intended for us to use that system WHY did they allow/encourage/demand that their sales department push that system?


----------



## CandyLancaster

ronparise said:


> That was my business plan. Buy a contract, credit pool 3 years points, make reservations and rent them out... the following year I would credit pool one year out and use those points>>>so in my first year of ownership I would make a ton of money and then just break even for the rest of my life... To make money in the second year Id buy more points and do it again
> 
> I was aked more than once what my exit plan was... The answer is Im gonna die


Yes, and Wyndham's own sales people pushed us to use their system that in the end they didn't like and then blamed the megarenters.   Really?????


----------



## Pathways

CandyLancaster said:


> So if Wyndham never intended for us to use that system WHY did they allow/encourage/demand that their sales department push that system?



Who really cares at this point? I attended a Wyndham presentation before I bought my first timeshare. I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, but it took very little research to see that the BS they were pushing was no different than sales people from many other business areas. The consumers must educate themselves.  And TUG is a GOLD mine of info.

I've never heard of anyone actually forced into a presentation. Pressured yes, forced, no.  If fact, most people not only attend of their own free will, they are compensated for their time!

Cancel/Re-book was never in writing. And the fact there are so many people complaining that it may be going away tells us that for the most part the sales weasels were correct, in fact it HAS been available to all and used extensively.


----------



## wed100105

gottashiner said:


> I just got an email that a reservation was cancelled by Wyndham.  It had my husband's name on it and there was no overlapping reservation with his name.



When was the reservation booked?


----------



## seascapemvy

Pathways said:


> Who really cares at this point? I attended a Wyndham presentation before I bought my first timeshare. I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, but it took very little research to see that the BS they were pushing was no different than sales people from many other business areas. The consumers must educate themselves.  And TUG is a GOLD mine of info.
> 
> I've never heard of anyone actually forced into a presentation. Pressured yes, forced, no.  If fact, most people not only attend of their own free will, they are compensated for their time!
> 
> Cancel/Re-book was never in writing. And the fact there are so many people complaining that it may be going away tells us that for the most part the sales weasels were correct, in fact it HAS been available to all and used extensively.


As a small owner I understand both sides of the cancel rebook issue.  The reason for the lower points for late reservations is so points are used and rooms are full.  However if VIP owners always get to use the resorts at a major discount it adds a cost to everyone and costs owners like me more than it should.  It also makes it more difficult to get the reservations I want because someone with a million points can use the system and make 2 million points in reservations.  However the cause of this is not the VIP owners but Wyndham.  They sold people on this and didn't care of what would happen in the long run.  

The time is now and they can't expanded fast enough to keep that going and they need to treat everyone equally, especially since their average owner owns about 250,000 points. Is this fare, no.  But what option do they have?  Think about it.  There are only so many points.  The vast majority of resorts are sold out and while many points are lost because owners dont use them, the numbers just dont add up anymore.


----------



## CandyLancaster

I understand what you say about being a small owner.  That system did affect small owners. I think if Wyndham was going to take away the option of "Cancel/Rebook", they should have given notice to all VIP owners and explained why.  It really upsets us that they sold us on this option and now are taking it away.  Plus, they are pretending that it was never there in the first place.  This heavily affects VIP owners who bought with retirement plans in mind. Many people are devastated over this decision because they made extra income for retirement from this system that they created. We bought more points to be able to split our points evenly at death for our two sons and allow each to maintain Platinum status.   We are not sure they will even want to take the points and pay the monthly maintenance fees now.  
  We expect a class action lawsuit to come from this.  There will be a very smart lawyer who will take this on.  One person mentioned that Wyndham probably has a small print clause stating that they can change anything anytime.  I can just see a lawyer parading owner after owner before a jury where each owner tells the same story about buying points because of "Cancel and Rebook".  Wyndham may have to pay large fines for making this idiotic mistake and most likely will not change their practices. However, it will cause a PR nightmare for Wyndham.


----------



## CO skier

CandyLancaster said:


> We expect a class action lawsuit to come from this.  There will be a very smart lawyer who will take this on.  One person mentioned that Wyndham probably has a small print clause stating that they can change anything anytime.  I can just see a lawyer parading owner after owner before a jury where each owner tells the same story about buying points because of "Cancel and Rebook".  Wyndham may have to pay large fines for making this idiotic mistake and most likely will not change their practices. However, it will cause a PR nightmare for Wyndham.


These cases are normally heard only by a judge; there is no jury.  Judges take a hardline legal stance based on what is written in the signed contracts and other documents.

Lawyers live for billable hours, and there will be no shortage of them chasing this development.  My advice is to retain lawyers only on a contingency basis.  When they get to the merger clause in the contract that amounts to, "I did not rely on anything the lying salesmen just told me for this purchase decision", lawyers working on a contingency basis might not be so interested in spending their time on the case.

You can still cancel a reservation.  You can still book a reservation.  It will be difficult to prove that you lost something.


----------



## ronparise

It wil be easy to say that nothing has changed, except that they added a new feature to the VIP package of benefits.  now, not only can you make reservations from available inventory at a discount and get free upgrades (subject to availability) They will search for those upgrades automatically... so you dont have to be on the website all the time looking for one.


----------



## seascapemvy

CandyLancaster said:


> I understand what you say about being a small owner.  That system did affect small owners. I think if Wyndham was going to take away the option of "Cancel/Rebook", they should have given notice to all VIP owners and explained why.  It really upsets us that they sold us on this option and now are taking it away.  Plus, they are pretending that it was never there in the first place.  This heavily affects VIP owners who bought with retirement plans in mind. Many people are devastated over this decision because they made extra income for retirement from this system that they created. We bought more points to be able to split our points evenly at death for our two sons and allow each to maintain Platinum status.   We are not sure they will even want to take the points and pay the monthly maintenance fees now.
> We expect a class action lawsuit to come from this.  There will be a very smart lawyer who will take this on.  One person mentioned that Wyndham probably has a small print clause stating that they can change anything anytime.  I can just see a lawyer parading owner after owner before a jury where each owner tells the same story about buying points because of "Cancel and Rebook".  Wyndham may have to pay large fines for making this idiotic mistake and most likely will not change their practices. However, it will cause a PR nightmare for Wyndham.


I agree with you that this is horrible for VIP owners who were sold something in a sales presentation that Wyndham should have known would eventually turn into a nightmare and was impossible to last.  The fact that is lasted this long is a clear sign of the number of points that are lost each year because of non use.  I purchased knowing I may lost a 1000 or 2000 points a year because I do not plan to use Wyndham except for 2 or 3 short trips a year.  I purchased on ebay and paid practically nothing, so I am happy with my purchase.  As for a lawsuit, good luck, I would not pay into one and I doubt a lawyer will take it solely on a contingency fee.  If they did, they would settle for practically nothing except something like free housekeeping for a few visits and money for themselves.  The key to Wyndham's argument is that all benefits are subject to change and or elimination and that if they sell all the points in a location that it would be impossible to give upgrades or discounted points for reservations because for every point given away it means someone else did not use their points.  Everyone should have realized this but fast talking sales reps get consumers to look past reality and believe them.


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## tschwa2

CandyLancaster said:


> I understand what you say about being a small owner.  That system did affect small owners. I think if Wyndham was going to take away the option of "Cancel/Rebook", they should have given notice to all VIP owners and explained why.  It really upsets us that they sold us on this option and now are taking it away.  Plus, they are pretending that it was never there in the first place.  This heavily affects VIP owners who bought with retirement plans in mind. Many people are devastated over this decision because they made extra income for retirement from this system that they created. We bought more points to be able to split our points evenly at death for our two sons and allow each to maintain Platinum status.   We are not sure they will even want to take the points and pay the monthly maintenance fees now.
> We expect a class action lawsuit to come from this.  There will be a very smart lawyer who will take this on.  One person mentioned that Wyndham probably has a small print clause stating that they can change anything anytime.  I can just see a lawyer parading owner after owner before a jury where each owner tells the same story about buying points because of "Cancel and Rebook".  Wyndham may have to pay large fines for making this idiotic mistake and most likely will not change their practices. However, it will cause a PR nightmare for Wyndham.



As I mentioned in another thread about suits against Marriott.  A few years back Marriott significantly changed their business model and started selling points, significantly changed and scaled back their owner resale and owner rental programs.  They also stopped there large bulk deposits of unsold inventory across many resorts and put that inventory into a points trust and held back most of that inventory for points members.  Law suits claimed that the deeded week owners were damaged because they bought and in some cases bought again because of the priority exchanges through II with the large chunks of unsold inventory.  They were told they could buy a week in Orlando and exchange easily for Hawaii and for years they could until the change.  They could buy and Marriott would rent out their week for more than they paid in MF's.  They could buy and Marriott would broker a resale regularly netting the owner 50-60% or more than what they originally paid.  The judge ruled that none of those benefits were guaranteed and the legacy owner still had all their deeded rights associated with the ownership and Marriott had the right to change their programs to maintain a profitable business.  The owner was sold on the program as it existed at the time and benefited under that program.  Marriott clearly indicated that aspects of the program were subject to change.  

In Wyndham's case there never was a "cancel and rebook benefit".  There was cancel.  There was book within the discount window and the was upgrades in the upgrade window.  Owners were sold on the program and the way the program worked at the time. There was nothing guaranteeing that the program would always work like that.  There was no documentation saying that the program was supposed to work like that. Wyndham made a business decision in the way they managed inventory without changing the rules.  It did make it so booking and cancelling no longer reliably resulted in discounts and upgrades. 

 I don't think there is a lawyer who would take the case on a contingency basis.  If you found one the first thing he would be looking to do is cut a settlement deal with Wyndham to get his fees paid and then the other half could go to owners.  So even if he could get a 3 million dollar settlement. That would mean 1.5 to him and about $2 per wyndham owner and wyndham would have a settlement saying that they aren't admitting any guilt and what they are doing is perfectly legal and then they would raise the program fees to cover any fees they had to pay out and cover their own attorney fees.  If on the other hand you want to to cover your lawyer fees which I would imagine would be in the 10's of thousands - best of luck.


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## markb53

Sales people will always find a way to sell features. They have done this since the beginning of time. Wyndham didn't create the process of cancel/rebook/upgrade. That is not mentioned anywhere in the documentation. But sales people started selling that feature (loophole) to help them sell the VIP status. VIP status itself is not contracted right. Wyndham can, and has, changed the rules of VIP. 
The Credit pool is another example. Nowhere is the documentation or on the old website does it say that you can credit pool your points in future years and use them in the current year. On the old website it said that if you found you wouldn't be able to travel one year you could credit pool your point to be able to use them in the next year. It also said that your ability to use your credit pooled points was based on the amount of points put into the credit pool from the same use year by other members. I have never heard of anyone being denied a booking with points out of the credit pool because there weren't enough deposited by other users. Maybe this is because a huge number of members, including me, simply put all there points in the credit pool every year, so there was always plenty. Or maybe Wyndham decided not to invoke that rule. 
Sales people are selling the credit pool feature (loophole) and the cancel/rebook/upgrade feature (loophole). I'm sure there are others I can't think of right now.
I went through a presentation at Bali Hai in Hawaii where the sales person told me I really needed to own an Bali Hai because I would never be able to stay in Bali Hai unless I owned there. Then how you explain that I am staying here. Oh she said, well you certainly can't get the presidential units. Then how am I staying in the 3 BR Presidential. How could you do that. "Do you have a computer I can show I said, It's really easy." 
Sales people will tell you anything to make the sale "Damn Lies", "Outright Lies", "Half Truths", and tons of features/loopholes. It is a shame I agree and I wish it wasn't so. And I surely will miss the credit pool, I really will. But I will learn to live without it and work within the system. I'm not VIP so I won't personally miss the cancel/rebook/upgrade. But I can see how for some it will be deal breaker. I suggest that you wait, just a little, and see how everything shakes out. Maybe it there will be more inventory at the 60 day point in the off season at some resort that don't have it showing now. Who knows.


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## Sandi Bo

CO skier said:


> These cases are normally heard only by a judge; there is no jury.  Judges take a hardline legal stance based on what is written in the signed contracts and other documents.
> 
> Lawyers live for billable hours, and there will be no shortage of them chasing this development.  My advice is to retain lawyers only on a contingency basis.  When they get to the merger clause in the contract that amounts to, "I did not rely on anything the lying salesmen just told me for this purchase decision", lawyers working on a contingency basis might not be so interested in spending their time on the case.
> 
> You can still cancel a reservation.  You can still book a reservation.  It will be difficult to prove that you lost something.



I would agree with you, only you can't (reliably book or cancel a reservation).   Even if you can maneuver through the embarrassingly ineptly designed booking process and actually find something you want to book, it may be phantom inventory that WYN is going to contact you and take back in a few days. We're hearing people can't cancel reservations, there are huge access issues, point balances aren't accurate, etc.  So many issues. 

I'll miss the cancel/rebook, for sure.  But I was surprised to stumble across it in the first place. I remember clarifying, multiple times, with a VC... really? I can cancel and then pick up the same reservation? Oh, you'll help me?  You'll do it FOR me?  Nice.  Then figuring out I could book a 1BR and upgrade it, etc. Wyndham encouraged it, helped us.  So, yes, seems pretty crazy they would support the practice so completely and then slam the door shut in our faces.   

But, I understand and accept this.  What is not acceptable to me is the inability for this new system to do ANYTHING correctly. WYN has a responsibility to their owners and shareholders to properly manage our accounts and the assets of the company. That is not happening.


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## BellaWyn

Not only properly manage them but to also provide us with an accurate accounting of our account balances.  It's a currency.  Surely there must be some legal aspect to the mis-management of that side of the equation.


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## massvacationer

So here is my question:

If an owner is using points deeded at a particular resort, and books a few reservations (for example ARP reservations) for the same time period  at that resort where they are deeded, does that owner need to use guest reservations at the time of booking ??

My thought is that the owner is not exchanging through the Club Wyndham system, but rather is simply exercising their underlying ownership rights, which are to use their deeded ownership.  So,  this rule that requires guest reservation when booking, does not apply.

What are folks thoughts on this?  And, do the new rules talks about this?


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## Braindead

It's becoming clear to all of us that owners have no underlying ownership rights.

Yes the rule applies to you as an owner. ARP makes no difference


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## raygo123

CandyLancaster said:


> So if Wyndham never intended for us to use that system WHY did they allow/encourage/demand that their sales department push that system?


You can only sell what's in your bag

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## ronparise

massvacationer said:


> So here is my question:
> 
> If an owner is using points deeded at a particular resort, and books a few reservations (for example ARP reservations) for the same time period  at that resort where they are deeded, does that owner need to use guest reservations at the time of booking ??
> 
> My thought is that the owner is not exchanging through the Club Wyndham system, but rather is simply exercising their underlying ownership rights, which are to use their deeded ownership.  So,  this rule that requires guest reservation when booking, does not apply.
> 
> What are folks thoughts on this?  And, do the new rules talks about this?


 

this make complete sense. There is an exception to the 10 nightly limit rule for ARP reservations  I would expect an exception to the guest confirmation rule... but I bet my expectation is wrong


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## Braindead

massvacationer said:


> So here is my question:
> 
> If an owner is using points deeded at a particular resort, and books a few reservations (for example ARP reservations) for the same time period  at that resort where they are deeded, does that owner need to use guest reservations at the time of booking ??
> 
> My thought is that the owner is not exchanging through the Club Wyndham system, but rather is simply exercising their underlying ownership rights, which are to use their deeded ownership.  So,  this rule that requires guest reservation when booking, does not apply.
> 
> What are folks thoughts on this?  And, do the new rules talks about this?





Braindead said:


> It's becoming clear to all of us that owners have no underlying ownership rights.
> 
> Yes the rule applies to you as an owner. ARP makes no difference


I reread the supplement from April. There is no mention of ARP  relating to the new GCs rule. So I assume you need to add GCs even with ARP


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## raygo123

I owned a devided interest and never had a problem if I wanted to use my week at my unit.  

Sent from my RCT6873W42 using Tapatalk


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## Cheryl20772

massvacationer said:


> So here is my question:
> 
> If an owner is using points deeded at a particular resort, and books a few reservations (for example ARP reservations) for the same time period  at that resort where they are deeded, does that owner need to use guest reservations at the time of booking ??


Might depend on how your contract defines your ownership. For example, a contract can specify that you own specified week converted to specified number of points to be traded in the Wyndham program. Alternatively, the contract might say you own undivided interest (UDI) at the resort in the form of specified points to be traded.


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