# Big Island FlightSeeing Crash?



## Timeshare Von (Jun 18, 2008)

My husband said Fox News is reporting that a flightseeing plane is missing and assumed to have gone down (yesterday) morning while on a volcano viewing tour.  I can't find anything on the net yet and hope that perhaps they will be found safe.  Keep them in your prayers!


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## MattC (Jun 18, 2008)

*google search*

Day 2 Search For Missing Tour Plane on Big Island      
Written by KGMB9 News - news@kgmb,com     
June 18, 2008 05:33 AM  
The U.S. Coast Guard is searching for a missing tour plane with three people onboard with six aircraft over the Big Island today. Throughout the night, crews searched the planes planned route, but found nothing. The Cessna 172 took off at 10:15am yesterday from Kona with three people on board. The last time anyone saw it was at 12:45pm near Kilauea. Its pilot had filed a flight plan to fly clockwise around the island, spend some time over Kilauea before returning to Kona at 1:30pm. The plane is owned by "Island Hoppers". The company has not released any names for the people on board.


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## Timeshare Von (Jun 18, 2008)

Just got home for lunch and was able to see the news story online from the Fox affiliate in Hawaii.  It saddens me greatly, as that was the tour company we used this past September for our volcano flight tour.  Our pilot was named Shawn and is the same guy that is shown in this video clip later in the story, as the pilot who had an emergency landing on a highway earlier this year . . . 
http://www.khon2.com/news/local/20272784.html .


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## Steamboat Bill (Jun 18, 2008)

wow..that is scarry...we were there last week and considered using them, but drove instead....we are in Maui and going on a helicopter tour on Friday....so I will not tell my wife about this news.


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## Timeshare Von (Jun 18, 2008)

Still no reports of finding the plane or signs of the plane.  Not looking good but I'm still holding out hope that they are found to be safe.


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## cigarboo (Jun 18, 2008)

I've always been weary of little airplanes. We'll be going to Hawaii in July and any temptation to take one of those flying tours is gone now. The only airplanes we'll be getting on are the ones with jet engines. I'm nervous as heck just flying over all that ocean. 

That's very sad about the missing plane. Just tragic.


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## Lawlar (Jun 18, 2008)

*Safe and Exciting*

My wife and I got married on Maui using one of the helicopter tour services.  They had a minister on the Helicopter  and we flew into the rain forest where the service was held on the side of the mountain.  It was exciting and beautiful.  The pilot had flown in Vietnam and was very qualified.  So don't shy away from the air tours.  Its well worth the money and minimal risk (you are more likely to get into a car accident).


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## Timeshare Von (Jun 18, 2008)

About this time last year, everyone was talking about the helicopter crash and loss of life experienced at the time . . . what seemed like a rash of accidents.  There was the helicopter vs. plane crash issues . . . and I recall that being part of the deciding factor when we choose to go with Island Hoppers in Sept07. 

I had done a small plane Island Tour of the Big Island before, but admittedly David was a bit worried.  Once up and in the moment, he loved it.  I'm sure we would do it again too!


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## ricoba (Jun 18, 2008)

cigarboo said:


> I've always been weary of little airplanes.



Don't tell that to the thousands of Alaskan's who use those "little planes" as taxi cabs! 

I'd far rather go on a single engine Cessna/Beaver/Piper etc than on a helicopter, but that's just me.

Either way it does seem to be tragic, as all accidents like this are.


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## PrettyKitties (Jun 18, 2008)

I really hope they are OK.  It sounds like the passengers are Japanese tourists - their families must be going crazy.


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## KristinB (Jun 18, 2008)

Wow, this is awful.  We were on the BI for three weeks, and really pushed our luck, I guess -- we took both the doors off tour with Paradise Helicopters and the whole island tour with Big Island Air.  The second tour was a spur of the moment decision because we had family and friends going and we just said why not?


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## Sandy VDH (Jun 19, 2008)

It is a sad situation when this happens in HI.  But it always makes me think about safety in general.  

The incident rate for most air transportation is significantly lower than car accidents, more people are killed in car accidents every year, but people never even give a thought to say they will stop driving.  Strange but true.

The tours are a great way to see the volcano and the country.  I do feel sad for the pilot and his passengers.  I would still take a helicopter tour again, if it was the best way to see a particular area.


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## fmr MVCI (Jun 19, 2008)

*have looked into several of the*



Sandy Lovell said:


> It is a sad situation when this happens in HI.  But it always makes me think about safety in general.
> 
> The incident rate for most air transportation is significantly lower than car accidents, more people are killed in car accidents every year, but people never even give a thought to say they will stop driving.  Strange but true.
> 
> The tours are a great way to see the volcano and the country.  I do feel sad for the pilot and his passengers.  I would still take a helicopter tour again, if it was the best way to see a particular area.



Totally agree, the chance of getting killed in a car accident on one's way to eat an artery clogging big Mac is much greater than the change of getting killed on a sightseeing tour.  With that said, we have looked into several of the Hawaiin helicopter tour operators, and had good comfort with some of the bigger companies, like Blue Hawaiin.

Another option (which we just did this week is to see the flow from the ocean: http://youtube.com/user/LavaOceanAd... water.  Shane gets you right up to the lava.


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## Cathyb (Jun 19, 2008)

Has there been any later news on this possible accident?


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## Timeshare Von (Jun 19, 2008)

Not that I can find.  It's still pretty early there.


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## Timeshare Von (Jun 19, 2008)

*Law Suit Filed Today - Island Hoppers*

Still no news on the missing plane or the passengers . . . but this is out there today and is very unsettling:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25255176/


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## Jestjoan (Jun 19, 2008)

The The Ultimate tour book stated, "Going to Kauai and not taking a helicopter tour is like going to the Sistine Chapel and not looking up."

I wouldn't do it.....DH would have....he should have gone without me.


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## daventrina (Jun 19, 2008)

Timeshare Von said:


> Not that I can find. It's still pretty early there.


http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/assets/gif/M1110958618.GIF

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6600ap_hi_missing_plane.html
http://www.kitv.com/news/16646320/detail.html?rss=hon&psp=news
http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/7422/40/
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080619/NEWS01/806190359/-1/RSS02

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080619/NEWS01/806190360/0/RSS02
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,368721,00.html
http://starbulletin.com/breaking/breaking.php?id=7278

Former Pilot Sues Island Hopper Air
http://www.kitv.com/news/16649927/detail.html?rss=hon&psp=news

We were going to rent one from them in 3 weeks..... After reading this, maybe we'll wait till we get to Maui...

2007-08 Aviation accidents in Hawaii
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080619/NEWS01/806190353/0/RSS02

Air tour accidents down across nation
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080619/NEWS01/806190361/0/RSS02


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## Timeshare Von (Jun 19, 2008)

I guess I should have been a bit more clear as there has been plenty of "we're still looking" reports but "news" to me would be they found the pilot/passengers and all is good (like the girls lost in Denali, Alaska this past week) or that they found the wreckage or something like that.


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## daventrina (Jun 23, 2008)

*3 Killed In Crash*

*http://www.kitv.com/video/16681567/index.html

Missing Big Island Tour Plane Found *

*FAA: 3 Killed In Crash*

POSTED: 1:59 pm HST June 20, 2008
UPDATED: 9:19 pm HST June 22, 2008
*HONOLULU -- *Recovery crews airlifted the bodies from the wreckage of a missing Big Island tour plane shortly after one of the company's helicopter pilot spotted the plane at 5:30 a.m. Sunday.
 .......

http://www.kitv.com/news/16669764/detail.html?rss=hon&psp=news
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25320089/
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080622/BREAKING01/80622035/-1/RSS01
http://www.khon2.com/home/ticker/20647139.html
http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/7554/76/


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## tompalm (Jun 23, 2008)

There was a single engine plane crash in the same spot about eight years ago.  The pilots take a short cut across the south side of the island to get back to Kona and it probably saves five minutes.  However, when the visibility is bad (vog), or low clouds, the pilots might think they are safely south of the mountain, but end up clipping the edge of it.  The accident investigation is just starting and they might find engine trouble, but I doubt it.  If engine trouble had occurred, the pilot could have turned south and tried to land in the ocean.  

I don't keep count, but it seems like one third of the accidents with helicopters or small planes occur when there is bad visibility and the aircraft hits the mountain.  That can happen on any island with any company.  My suggestion is to only go flying when the weather is good and don't buy tickets in advance.  Besides that, you just don't get to see as much on a cloudy day.

On a side note, GPS systems have really come down in price and small aircraft should have them.  If this plane had a GPS in it, the pilot would have known that he was too close to the mountain.  That might be a good question to ask before flying with one of the tour companies.

Aircraft maintenance at some companies is questionable.  It is hard to follow and detect which has the best maintenance.  If you are flying with the smallest and cheapest company on the island, they might have the cheapest maintenance.  It is too difficult to determine who is cutting corners on maintenance and best not to worry about that.  However, if the biggest company with the newest planes on island only cost a few dollars more, I say that is insurance worth buying.

If this plane had GPS, than something was wrong with it. This is a sad day that could have been prevented if the pilot had better equipment.


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## DeniseM (Jun 24, 2008)

Tom - as an airline pilot living in Hawaii, would you personally take a sightseeing tour, either fixed wing or helicopter?  Just curious...


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## Steamboat Bill (Jun 24, 2008)

We just did the Blue Hawaii helicopter tour in Maui and it was incredible.

Price was about $450 per person for a 2 hour tour.


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## daventrina (Jun 24, 2008)

tompalm said:


> ...they might find engine trouble, but I doubt it.  If engine trouble had occurred, the pilot could have turned south and tried to land in the ocean.


Had the same sinking thoughts when we saw where the accident was. A bad place to be that time of day.  A good place to develop turbulence and wind sheer. While the 172 with it 8:1+ glide ratio should been able to out glide the terrain if they turned downhill towards the sea. From 6000 feet they would have been able to glide for about 12 minutes. It may have found a downdraft that it couldn't out climb (even if there was no engine failure). Which is why we would have been down near the road  over by the sea. 




http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule21.html
http://www.aos.wisc.edu/~aos152/lesson11/content.html
http://www.mountainflying.com/


tompalm said:


> ...This is a sad day that could have been prevented if the pilot had better equipment.



Garmin 296/396/496 $800-$2300
Missing the mountain -- $Priceless
We just love the terrain and weather on our 496...

The 3 best ways to get your self killed killed in an airplane:

   Run out of fuel
   Low level maneuvering
   VMC into IMC (visual flight into instrument conditions)
 Which leads to the best three ways to save your butt:

   Make sure that you have plenty of gas
   Don't mess around near the ground
   Stay out of the clouds on a visual flight


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## Timeshare Von (Jun 24, 2008)

*Saddened*

I've had limited internet access (and time) the past couple of days due to my work and being on the road.  My hubby called me yesterday to let me know they found the crash site, no survivors.  I'm deeply saddened for the pilot and the two tourists.


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## tompalm (Jun 26, 2008)

I will only go flying on a tour plane when the weather is good.  Not because I am worried that the plane will hit the ground, but because you just don't get to see as much and it is not worth the money.

The odds of the aircraft hitting the ground in bad weather are pretty slim.  When you think about it, tour planes and helicopters fly through clouds everyday and only hit the ground or the ocean only once or twice each year.  The risk is pretty small that an accident will happen, but why go flying when the visibility is bad?  

When I said one third of the accidents occur from aircraft hitting the ground in bad weather, I really should have said one third of the fatal accidents.  There are a lot of engine failures where the plane lands on the highway or in the ocean and nobody gets hurt.  Those type of things we never hear about.


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## daventrina (Jun 30, 2008)

*NTSB To Investigate Wreckage From Fatal Plane Crash*

http://www.kitv.com/news/16736585/detail.html?rss=hon&psp=news
The NTSB's preliminary report is expected next week, but it will still be a while before a final report is ready.


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## daventrina (Jul 1, 2008)

*NTSB*

NTSB Identification: *LAX08FA190*
Nonscheduled 14 CFR Part 135: Air Taxi & Commuter
Accident occurred Tuesday, June 17, 2008 in Pahala, HI
Aircraft: Cessna 172M, registration: N13713
Injuries: 3 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On June 17, 2008, approximately 1225 Hawaiian standard time, a Cessna 172M, N13713, was substantially damaged following impact with terrain near Pahala, Hawaii. The commercial pilot and his two passengers were fatally injured. Above It All, Inc., d.b.a. Island Hoppers, was operating the airplane under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 135. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the pilot's departure from Kailua-Kona, which was the point of the flight's origination approximately 2 hours before the accident. A VFR flight plan had been filed and opened for the island circumnavigation air tour flight. 

When the airplane did not return to Kailua-Kona at its scheduled time, a search was commenced. By the following day, the search became an Island wide multi-agency search. On June 22, approximately 0600, the airplane was located. The airplane was found in a rain forest on the southeastern side of the volcano, Mauna Loa. 
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20080630X00944&key=1

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=LAX08FA190&rpt=p


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## tompalm (Jul 2, 2008)

Dave,

Good post about the cost of GPS and glide ratio.  Today, the local news reported that they found the aircraft with one wing torn off and laying upside down against the vertical part of the mountain.  

I started to think about how little it cost to have GPS and it hit a nerve with me.  A few days ago, I emailed several tour companies asking if they had GPS with terrain avoidance and told them I wanted to take a tour and bring my own Garmin along if they didn't have one.  I didn't get a response back from any of them.  I also emailed a safety inspector that I talked with before at the local FAA FSDO and asked:

_Can you tell me if there are any FAA directives stating that tour companies should have GPS with terrain avoidance installed?  If there is not anything directing tour companies to have GPS, who can I write to recommend that?  I looked at the FAA web site http://fsims.faa.gov/home.aspx  , Operation of Single Engine Passenger Carrying Aircraft under IFR Section 135.163 (f)(2),Equipment Necessary for Safe Emergency; and did not see anything listing the requirement for GPS.

Please feel free to forward my email to anyone that can answer the question above, or call 808-xxx-xxx if you have any questions.  Thank you in advance for any info that you can provide. _ 

I didn't get a response back yet.  Do you or anyone else know if there is such a regulation.  

Maybe I am wrong and the NTSB will find engine failure, but that plane should have been able to glide to the ocean if that was the case.


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