# New Housekeeping Credit structure [merged]



## Richelle (Oct 15, 2020)

The email has not been sent out yet, but it will be.  This was on the website.  I assume biannual owners who split their points between years will have to buy housekeeping credits in their "off" years since they do not travel with the points deposit anymore.  I wonder how this will affect RCI reservation if the housekeeping credits don't get deposited into RCI when you deposit your points.









						Leave Housework At Home
					

Updates are coming to your Club Wyndham Housekeeping Credits. Check out the full details of the upcoming changes.




					clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com
				




RESORT NEWS | OCTOBER 15, 2020
*Leave Housework At Home*
Your Housekeeping Credits just got a refresh. With these updates you won’t have to worry about your length of stay or size of suite. You simply need 1 Housekeeping Credit plus your points per reservation. Here’s how it works:
You’ll receive 1 Housekeeping Credit per 70,000 points annually at the start of your Use Year. These Housekeeping Credits will only be needed when you book a reservation through Club Wyndham or Wyndham Club Pass — you won’t need Housekeeping Credits for exchanges, points deposits, or charitable gift donations.
*Currently VIP with unlimited Housekeeping Credits? *
Great! You will retain the unlimited Housekeeping Credits benefit even after the launch of the new VIP by Wyndham program.
*Not VIP yet? *
You can still step your game up if you join VIP by Wyndham after the launch in November 2020 and benefit from additional VIP Housekeeping Credits.
In addition to the annual award of Housekeeping Credits, owners with VIP by Wyndham benefits will receive the following supplemental allotment based on their tier level:

Bronze+1Silver+2Gold+4Platinum+6Founders+8
*A Few Housekeeping Pro Tips*

If you run out of Housekeeping Credits, you may complete your reservation by purchasing additional credits for $159 per credit at the time of booking.
Need to change your plans? Housekeeping Credits are returned to the Use Year from which they came or original source of payment if purchased, when a reservation is canceled in accordance with the cancellation policy.
Housekeeping Credits cannot be borrowed.
Any unused Housekeeping Credits will expire at the end of your Use Year.
Legacy VIP members will continue to receive unlimited Housekeeping Credits.
For biennial contracts, Housekeeping Credits will be allocated on the years you receive your points.
Housekeeping Credits cannot be applied toward additional suite cleanings during your stay.
Previously awarded Housekeeping Credits have been adjusted at the new rate of calculation. Any previously booked reservations have been adjusted in your account as well.
Any borrowed Housekeeping Credits were deducted from the appropriate Use Year.
Be on the lookout! These Housekeeping Credits are rolling out in November 2020.


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## CCdad (Oct 15, 2020)

This will definitely impact owners without unlimited HK privileges, ones that tend to do less than full week stays. It may result in expensive additional costs for those staying in hotel rooms (NYC), studios or 1 Br units vs the high point owners staying in the larger units for full weeks at a time.

I thought I saw some WM owners discussing something along these lines by a couple of candidates for their BoD.


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 15, 2020)

OMG this is complete BS. What if you stay in smaller units and don't own a perfect multiple of 70? Guess I better start planning on using RCI more for DVC.


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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2020)

CCdad said:


> This will definitely impact owners without unlimited HK privileges, ones that tend to do less than full week stays. It may result in expensive additional costs for those staying in hotel rooms (NYC), studios or 1 Br units vs the high point owners staying in the larger units for full weeks at a time.
> 
> I thought I saw some WM owners discussing something along these lines by a couple of candidates for their BoD.
> 
> ...


Short term stay owners were my first thought.  Still, they tended to run out of them anyway.  $159 equals 70 HK credits at today's rate of $2.25 per credit.  That's in between a one-bedroom and two-bedroom that are 63 and 77 credits needed respectively.    So yeah, people who stay in hotels and studios are paying more than they would under the old system.  Someone who wants to do a  four bedroom in prime season may currently have to buy housekeeping because the credits cost more then what they get.  For example, a weekend stay in a bonnet creek 4 bedroom presidential during prime is 91,000 points.  Someone who owns 105,000 points would have to pay $110.  In the new system, they wouldn't have to pay anything.  There was one guy who told me he did that.  Booked a short stay in a large room and always had to buy housekeeping credits.  

I assume th eold system wasn't covering the cost of housekeeping and thats why they changed it.  It is a simpler method, but like most changes, it won't be a good change for everyone.


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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> OMG this is complete BS. What if you stay in smaller units and don't own a perfect multiple of 70? Guess I better start planning on using RCI more for DVC.


HK credits do not go to RCI when you deposit your points.  So you may end up covering the cost of housekeeping for your DVC stay.  As I mentioned to Ccdad, I suspect the old system wasn't covering the cost of housekeeping anymore, so it had to change.  I often saw people complain that the HK credit system was confusing.  I assume they heard the same, so they simplified it and adjusted costs to cover the cost of cleaning the room.


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## CCdad (Oct 15, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> OMG this is complete BS. What if you stay in smaller units and don't own a perfect multiple of 70? Guess I better start planning on using RCI more for DVC.



And since hotel rooms (NYC) and studios (28) are less HK credits than the 70 average, it’ll cost an owner dearly to stay in a studio once their allotment runs out.

I think that’s what the WM discussion was about.


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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2020)

CCdad said:


> And since hotel rooms (NYC) and studios (28) are less HK credits than the 70 average, it’ll cost an owner dearly to stay in a studio once their allotment runs out.
> 
> I think that’s what the WM discussion was about.
> 
> ...


If they run out, it would cost them $159 per stay.  Whether or not that is a fair cost, I don't know.  I have no idea how much it costs them to clean a room.  Obviously, the old system wasn't covering it, and giving free housekeeping to VIPs was becoming too costly, so they took away that benefit for new VIPs.   The alternative is to significantly raise the program fee for everyone and give everyone unlimited housekeeping credits.  The resale owners and non-VIPs would love it until they figure out that their program fee is paying to clean the rooms of someone who does 8 short stays when they only did one long stay and only needed one cleaning.  I think the all you can eat model would be fine for a small system like DVC, but not a large system like this.


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## CCdad (Oct 15, 2020)

Richelle said:


> If they run out, it would cost them $159 per stay. Whether or not that is a fair cost, I don't know. I have no idea how much it costs them to clean a room. Obviously, the old system wasn't covering it, and giving free housekeeping to VIPs was becoming too costly, so they took away that benefit for new VIPs. The alternative is to significantly raise the program fee for everyone and give everyone unlimited housekeeping credits. The resale owners and non-VIPs would love it until they figure out that their program fee is paying to clean the rooms of someone who does 8 short stays when they only did one long stay and only needed one cleaning. I think the all you can eat model would be fine for a small system like DVC, but not a large system like this.



I guess my confusion is: the HK cost is already absorbed by the individual HOAs, who must budget their total costs for the year. So the HOA owners are theoretically funding any and all HK expenses that’s incurred for the year.

How does this new model require Wyndham to reimburse the HOAs for the EXTRA HK costs incurred on top of what was HOA budgeted? Is this all just extra profit to WDs bottom line, not a full required reimbursement to the HOAs. 

I’m okay If it’s a zero sum game - everything WD collects only goes to the HOAs - then WD only profits from any MF increase as they collect their management fee at each each resort based upon the HOA budget. That is unless the HOA has signed a fixed management fee arrangement, plus paying a mark up on the costs of WD supplied employees staffing the resort.


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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2020)

CCdad said:


> I guess my confusion is: the HK cost is already absorbed by the individual HOAs, who must budget their total costs for the year. So the HOA owners are theoretically funding any and all HK expenses that’s incurred for the year.
> 
> How does this new model require Wyndham to reimburse the HOAs for the EXTRA HK costs incurred on top of what was HOA budgeted? Is this all just extra profit to WDs bottom line, not a full required reimbursement to the HOAs.
> 
> ...


The housekeeping the HOAs pay is for common areas and anything not managed by Wyndham.  The housekeeping credits pay for the unit cleaning.  The HOAs do not pay for unit cleanings.  They pay to clean common areas like lobbies, hallways, facilities, etc.


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 15, 2020)

I originally wanted a 5,000 credit WM contract to be able to use Bonus Time to stay in a 3 Bedroom at Reunion without running out of HK credits, but now I guess I want one to stay in the Studios on the water at Sea Gardens lol. Having a flat rate per HK token is just stupid. Now the studio inventory is just going to sit there unused because VIPs just upgrade out of them and nobody is going to want to have to pay the housekeeping for one. Worldmark doesn't have a flat cost per HK token, it varies by room size.


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## BDMX2 (Oct 15, 2020)

So, if I understand this correctly...if the new HK credits are not required for points deposits, and unused ones expire at the end of the year, any points deposited forward into a following year will require you paying for HK in that following year even though you had plenty of corresponding HK credits in the original year.  Especially for the next couple of years, this will totally drive people to reserve larger units than they really need.  I know for sure I'll be driven in that direction.  Someone please correct me if I'm not understanding how this will work.


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## samara64 (Oct 15, 2020)

Well, I think $159 is kind of high.

For Worldmark, you get a HKT for every 10K you own. So from 1K to 19K, you get 1HKT. 20K to 29K you get 2. You use the HKT for any size room. Now once you run out of HKT, you have to pay for it and that is where things differ.

Also you need HKT for credit booking ONLY. Cash reservations do not need one.

Here is the latest rate:



HOUSEKEEPING RATE​UNIT TYPE​$74.00​Hotel
Studio Hotel
Studio Compact
Studio
Studio Cottage
Studio Plus
Studio Deluxe
Studio Loft
Studio Penthouse
Studio Presidential​$98.00​1 Bedroom Compact
1 Bedroom Compact Hotel
1 Bedroom Hotel
1 Bedroom Suite
1 Bedroom
1 Bedroom Cottage
1 Bedroom Loft
1 Bedroom Plus
1 Bedroom Deluxe
1 Bedroom Penthouse
1 Bedroom Presidential​$112.00​2 Bedroom Compact
2 Bedroom Hotel
2 Bedroom Suite
2 Bedroom
2 Bedroom Loft
2 Bedroom Plus
2 Bedroom Deluxe
2 Bedroom Chalet
2 Bedroom Penthouse
2 Bedroom Presidential
2 Bedroom Presidential Deluxe
2 Bedroom Presidential Casita​$123.00​3 Bedroom
3 Bedroom Plus
3 Bedroom Deluxe
3 Bedroom Deluxe Loft
3 Bedroom Chalet
3 Bedroom Penthouse
3 Bedroom Presidential
3 Bedroom Presidential Casita​$163.00​4 Bedroom Deluxe
4 Bedroom Penthouse
4 Bedroom Presidential
4 Bedroom Presidential Casita​


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## samara64 (Oct 15, 2020)

Richelle said:


> Short term stay owners were my first thought.  Still, they tended to run out of them anyway.  $159 equals 70 HK credits at today's rate of $2.25 per credit.  That's in between a one-bedroom and two-bedroom that are 63 and 77 credits needed respectively.    So yeah, people who stay in hotels and studios are paying more than they would under the old system.  Someone who wants to do a  four bedroom in prime season may currently have to buy housekeeping because the credits cost more then what they get.  For example, a weekend stay in a bonnet creek 4 bedroom presidential during prime is 91,000 points.  Someone who owns 105,000 points would have to pay $110.  In the new system, they wouldn't have to pay anything.  There was one guy who told me he did that.  Booked a short stay in a large room and always had to buy housekeeping credits.
> 
> I assume th eold system wasn't covering the cost of housekeeping and thats why they changed it.  It is a simpler method, but like most changes, it won't be a good change for everyone.




Do not understand this one as I am not a Wyndham owner. If I have 105K and the HK is 91K, why do I have to pay $110 extra.

Also in the new system, if you own 105K and do 2 stays. First one will be covered with first 70K. Now do you have to pay fully for the 2nd one or just 50% as you will use the remaining 35K.


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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I originally wanted a 5,000 credit WM contract to be able to use Bonus Time to stay in a 3 Bedroom at Reunion without running out of HK credits, but now I guess I want one to stay in the Studios on the water at Sea Gardens lol. Having a flat rate per HK token is just stupid. Now the studio inventory is just going to sit there unused because VIPs just upgrade out of them and nobody is going to want to have to pay the housekeeping for one. Worldmark doesn't have a flat cost per HK token, it varies by room size.


That's the way it is now with Wyndham.  I wouldn't be surprised if the WorldMark model changes too at some point in the future.


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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2020)

samara64 said:


> Do not understand this one as I am not a Wyndham owner. If I have 105K and the HK is 91K, why do I have to pay $110 extra.
> 
> Also in the new system, if you own 105K and do 2 stays. First one will be covered with first 70K. Now do you have to pay fully for the 2nd one or just 50% as you will use the remaining 35K.



Right now, the number of credits you need varies by room size and not by the number of points for the room.  If someone books a 4 bedroom presidential, they need 154 credits for a 1-7 night stay.  Someone who owns 105,000 points only gets 105 housekeeping credits.  The owner would have to pay for the additional 49 credits.  At $2.25 per credit, 49 credits would cost $110.25 

Remember, these credits pay for housekeeping.  The cost to clean the room remains the same regardless of how many stays you take, so they wouldn't discount the HK credits.


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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2020)

BDMX2 said:


> So, if I understand this correctly...if the new HK credits are not required for points deposits, and unused ones expire at the end of the year, any points deposited forward into a following year will require you paying for HK in that following year even though you had plenty of corresponding HK credits in the original year.  Especially for the next couple of years, this will totally drive people to reserve larger units than they really need.  I know for sure I'll be driven in that direction.  Someone please correct me if I'm not understanding how this will work.



You would only need additional credits if you run out of them.  So if you moved points forward, but used all the rollover points and use year points in one reservation, it would only require one credit.  Since you get a minimum of 1 credit every year, you wouldn't have to pay housekeeping for that reservation.  If you own 700,000 points, you get 10 credits.  If you roll over 200,000 points, you would have 900,000 points, but still 10 credits.  You could book up to 7 rooms and not pay for housekeeping.  It's not that hard to use 900,000 points for 10 rooms, even if you're only doing 1 bedroom unit.  It depends on where you go.


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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2020)

samara64 said:


> Well, I think $159 is kind of high.
> 
> For Worldmark, you get a HKT for every 10K you own. So from 1K to 19K, you get 1HKT. 20K to 29K you get 2. You use the HKT for any size room. Now once you run out of HKT, you have to pay for it and that is where things differ.
> 
> ...




I wouldn't be surprised if those fees changed.  Costs for things always go up. That includes the cost to pay someone to clean that unit, the cleaning supplies, and the insurance you pay for that employee.  All those costs go up, so expect that to go up eventually.


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## samara64 (Oct 15, 2020)

That makes sense. I did not know you need 154 credits to clean it. I thought only 91 HK credits but now understand these are the actual credits required to book..

So for the new system, if you own 105K and do 2 stays. First one will be covered with first 70K. Now do you have to pay 159 for the 2nd one or just 50% as you will use the remaining 35K.

Worldmark HK fees and MF have been going up 5% every year for the past 10 years.


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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2020)

samara64 said:


> That makes sense. I did not know you need 154 credits to clean it. I thought only 91 HK credits but now understand these are the actual credits required to book..
> 
> So for the new system, if you own 105K and do 2 stays. First one will be covered with first 70K. Now do you have to pay 159 for the 2nd one or just 50% as you will use the remaining 35K.
> 
> Worldmark HK fees and MF have been going up 5% every year for the past 10 years.



I am not sure exactly whether you'd have 1 or 2 credits if you have 105,000 points, so let's assume you get one.  Your first stay, regardless of how many points it cost, is one credit.  The second stay, regardless of point cost, is one credit.  The size of the unit or length of stay does not matter either.  One booking, one credit, period.  For the first stay, you would NOT have to pay for housekeeping.  For the second stay, you WOULD have to pay a flat $159.  Now, if 105,000 gets you two credits because you're over the 70,000 mark, you wouldn't have to pay anything for two stays because you'd have two credits.

There are no discounts on housekeeping credits regardless of how many points you are using.  That second stay would not be discounted if you had to pay for housekeeping.


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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2020)

samara64 said:


> Worldmark HK fees and MF have been going up 5% every year for the past 10 years.


Housekeeping has remained the same for as long as i've been a member.  I purchased in 2008.  It makes sense that 12 years later, costs would have to increase.  This is from page 334 of the 2009-2010 directory.


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## samara64 (Oct 15, 2020)

For Worldmark, it is one HK Token or charge per reservation even if it is for 30 days. As long as you do not change rooms.


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## BDMX2 (Oct 15, 2020)

Richelle said:


> You would only need additional credits if you run out of them.  So if you moved points forward, but used all the rollover points and use year points in one reservation, it would only require one credit.  Since you get a minimum of 1 credit every year, you wouldn't have to pay housekeeping for that reservation.  If you own 700,000 points, you get 7 credits.  If you roll over 200,000 points, you would have 900,000 points, but still 7 credits.  You could book up to 7 rooms and not pay for housekeeping.  It's not that hard to use 900,000 points for 7 rooms, even if you're only doing 1 bedroom unit.  It depends on where you go.


OK, yeah, good point.  And actually I think you meant that 700,000 points would give you 10 HK credits, so even easier to stay within.  I have 497,000 annual points, so 7 HK credits (if I'm understanding the 1 per 70k allotment correctly).  So even if I roll all of my points into a future year, nearly a million points spread among 7 reservations is do-able.  I do think this makes it simpler to understand and budget.  But I think they should roll with the points and not stay with the year...then again, that's how the reservation credits work, so I get it.


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## CCdad (Oct 15, 2020)

Richelle said:


> The housekeeping the HOAs pay is for common areas and anything not managed by Wyndham. The housekeeping credits pay for the unit cleaning. The HOAs do not pay for unit cleanings. They pay to clean common areas like lobbies, hallways, facilities, etc.



I’m looking at 2021 Bonnet Creek HOA budget. It shows HK revenues of $4 Mn and HK expenses of $14.2 Mn. To me, that’s a lot of $$$ for HK expenses if it is only to clean hallways etc and doesn’t include cleaning the units. And that’s just for Wyndham; but maybe WM doesn’t have any units at Bonnet Creek.


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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2020)

CCdad said:


> I’m looking at 2021 Bonnet Creek HOA budget. It shows HK revenues of $4 Mn and HK expenses of $14.2 Mn. To me, that’s a lot of $$$ for HK expenses if it is only to clean hallways etc and doesn’t include cleaning the units. And that’s just for Wyndham; but maybe WM doesn’t have any units at Bonnet Creek.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Call the HOA and get clarification.  That money covers salaries, insurance, supplies, equipment, etc as well.  I am not 100% sure who pays what.  Does the HOA hire and manage the people who clean the units and  Wyndham reimburses the HOA for the unit cleanings?  Maybe that's the revenue you referenced? Or is it the other way around?  Or is it all separate?   Maybe find out from the resort what "housekeeping" covers specifically.  It's my understanding that hallways, lobbies, offices, stairwells, elevators, storage areas, and a myriad of other things get cleaned by housekeeping.  I'm sure the resort will be happy to give you a better understanding of where you're money is going to.  You should definitely call and express your concern that you think it's too much.


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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2020)

samara64 said:


> For Worldmark, it is one HK Token or charge per reservation even if it is for 30 days. As long as you do not change rooms.


Wyndham doesn't allow 30-day reservations.  The max reservation is 14 days.  It's still 1 credit if you do a 14-day stay.  Under the old system, it was more credits for a 14-day stay.


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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2020)

BDMX2 said:


> OK, yeah, good point.  And actually I think you meant that 700,000 points would give you 10 HK credits, so even easier to stay within.  I have 497,000 annual points, so 7 HK credits (if I'm understanding the 1 per 70k allotment correctly).  So even if I roll all of my points into a future year, nearly a million points spread among 7 reservations is do-able.  I do think this makes it simpler to understand and budget.  But I think they should roll with the points and not stay with the year...then again, that's how the reservation credits work, so I get it.


You are correct my math was wrong.  I'll fix it.  That's what I get for trying to do multiple things at once.


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## troy12n (Oct 15, 2020)

This may be a question nobody can answer, but if you are currently VIP at any level, you are grandfathered into unlimited housekeeping credits... 

I have to assume if you advance in VIP level that this sticks with you... right? I can't imagine losing something you already have when you pay for more developer points.


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## Richelle (Oct 15, 2020)

troy12n said:


> This may be a question nobody can answer, but if you are currently VIP at any level, you are grandfathered into unlimited housekeeping credits...
> 
> I have to assume if you advance in VIP level that this sticks with you... right? I can't imagine losing something you already have when you pay for more developer points.


That's the million-dollar question.  That is one of just many answers I'm trying to get right now.


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## Jan M. (Oct 15, 2020)

troy12n said:


> This may be a question nobody can answer, but if you are currently VIP at any level, you are grandfathered into unlimited housekeeping credits...
> 
> I have to assume if you advance in VIP level that this sticks with you... right? I can't imagine losing something you already have when you pay for more developer points.



If unlimited housekeeping credits are a benefit of your current level then you will be grandfathered. See Richelle's opening post on this thread. It's under the second bold heading.

If you get rid of any of the developer deeds/contracts or PICs in your account that gave you the grandfathered VIP level you would lose that grandfathered status.

That is something owners who divide up their account among their children or if their children inherit/take over the account need to be aware of.

It's crucial to make sure it's written into the sales agreement that you will still be grandfathered if you do an equity trade with a new purchase.


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## Roger830 (Oct 15, 2020)

Thanks for posting this info Richelle!

I had 419 housekeeping credits left in 2021, 1 less than needed for 6 new style credits.

So I just booked 3 days at Inn On Long Wharf in Newport for June using 24,000 points and 63 Housekeeping credits, which leaves 356 available and still the same amount of new style credits. 

In the future, this new policy is really going to hurt those low cost short stays.


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 15, 2020)

Wyndham also should come up with a Bonus Time system (allowing inventory remaining 14 days out to be bought with cash) for Club Wyndham since they are restructuring housekeeping to match Worldmarks. It would make sense because it's now going to be more difficult for remaining inventory to be used up by non VIP members. I usually  use up last minute inventory in FL when it's discounted 35%, but since those reservations are usually only 50k points, it will be even harder to take advantage of those discounts. 

Also, if this was just to make housekeeping easier to understand, they should have made studios and 1 bedroom suites 1 HK token, 1 and 2 bedrooms 2 HK tokens and 3 and 4 bedrooms 3HK tokens and made it 1 HK token per 35,000 points.


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## paxsarah (Oct 15, 2020)

Richelle said:


> HK credits do not go to RCI when you deposit your points.  So you may end up covering the cost of housekeeping for your DVC stay.  As I mentioned to Ccdad, I suspect the old system wasn't covering the cost of housekeeping anymore, so it had to change.  I often saw people complain that the HK credit system was confusing.  I assume they heard the same, so they simplified it and adjusted costs to cover the cost of cleaning the room.



The impression I get is that there's simply no housekeeping needed for RCI deposits or stays. How does it work in a TPU weeks account? Housekeeping credits aren't a thing on the RCI side, isn't that correct? (I know some RCI resorts charge cash housekeeping fees for partial week stays, but I'm just referring to typical Weeks exchanges.) The old way, those HK credits were removed on the Wyndham side but nothing happened on the RCI side - they were just required on the Wyndham side to make the deposit to RCI.


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## RingsTug (Oct 15, 2020)

Wyndham just posted that starting Nov 1st 2020, housekeeping credits will change. You will get 1 credit/70,000 pts you own. Each stay is 1 credit. If you're a gold or higher vip it's unlimited.
Not good for a resale purchaser like me who has 154k points and will only get 2 credits. I can squeak out several trips with value and deals but now it's $159 if you don't have credits


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## RingsTug (Oct 15, 2020)

CCdad said:


> This will definitely impact owners without unlimited HK privileges, ones that tend to do less than full week stays. It may result in expensive additional costs for those staying in hotel rooms (NYC), studios or 1 Br units vs the high point owners staying in the larger units for full weeks at a time.
> 
> I thought I saw some WM owners discussing something along these lines by a couple of candidates for their BoD.
> 
> ...


I will greatly be affected. I only have 154k points. I usually travel local for 3 to 4 nights. We chose a studio or 1 brm to save points. Now it's going to cost me and I'll take less trips or I guess just stop using


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 15, 2020)

I've thought about it as well and I'm just going to start reserving a 2 bedroom deluxe Christmas week at Bonnet Creek every year for 224,000 points and throwing it on Redweek at cost just so I can have the extra housekeeping and use Bonus Time with a 5k Worldmark account for my short stays at Reunion, Ocean  Walk and Pompano. If anything, Wyndham just devalued their own retail program because the whole benefit of VIP is getting a lot of discounts and upgrades to make your stays cheap on points. This officially makes up my mind that any time I want to splurge on a timeshare purchase, I'm going to just go with Marriott DC trust points or DVC. Both those systems don't have guest certificate, reservation or housekeeping costs. Your annual costs are your maintenance fees, that's it.


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## tschwa2 (Oct 15, 2020)

In older resorts that were originally based on weeks stay the budget for the HOA would have included one unit cleaning per week.  I wouldn't be surprised if UDI's still include 52 cleanings per unit times the number of units as part of the budget.  Additional cleanings from VIP stays should presumably be paid out of wyndham developer funds, the same that pays the salary for sales, etc. Additional cleanings from non VIP's should come from member paid HK fees.- although my belief based on looking at budgets from many different resorts is that the HK fees are higher than a single cleaning for that size unit , therefore having non vip's who make multiple short stays subsidizing somewhat for the VIP multiple short stays.  The new system will do the same.


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## harveyhaddixfan (Oct 15, 2020)

I don’t like the fact that the HK is the same for a small studio as it is for a giant 3 BR. This is where the old system makes more sense. It’s also not quite fair that they won’t carry over. If you don’t use it and have to move points, they’re getting paid for a service (a cleaning) that they didn’t provide.


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## RingsTug (Oct 16, 2020)

samara64 said:


> Do not understand this one as I am not a Wyndham owner. If I have 105K and the HK is 91K, why do I have to pay $110 extra.
> 
> Also in the new system, if you own 105K and do 2 stays. First one will be covered with first 70K. Now do you have to pay fully for the 2nd one or just 50% as you will use the remaining 35K.


You pay fully so with 105k in Wyndham you get 1 credit and need to purchase a $159 hk to use the remaining points which is crazy


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## Richelle (Oct 16, 2020)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> I don’t like the fact that the HK is the same for a small studio as it is for a giant 3 BR. This is where the old system makes more sense. It’s also not quite fair that they won’t carry over. If you don’t use it and have to move points, they’re getting paid for a service (a cleaning) that they didn’t provide.



My best guess is they came up with that cost as an average to keep things simple. Bigger rooms may cost more then $159 to clean. If they changed the fee based on room size, that would be just as complicated as the housekeeping credit system they have now. The goal is to simplify it, while adjusting the price to reflect today’s cost versus what is was over a decade ago.


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## Richelle (Oct 16, 2020)

RingsTug said:


> You pay fully so with 105k in Wyndham you get 1 credit and need to purchase a $159 hk to use the remaining points which is crazy



The room has to be cleaned every time someone uses it. It doesn’t matter how many points you used to book that room or if you only stayed one night. The same cleaning has to be done so the same fee has to be charged.


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## Richelle (Oct 16, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I've thought about it as well and I'm just going to start reserving a 2 bedroom deluxe Christmas week at Bonnet Creek every year for 224,000 points and throwing it on Redweek at cost just so I can have the extra housekeeping and use Bonus Time with a 5k Worldmark account for my short stays at Reunion, Ocean Walk and Pompano. If anything, Wyndham just devalued their own retail program because the whole benefit of VIP is getting a lot of discounts and upgrades to make your stays cheap on points. This officially makes up my mind that any time I want to splurge on a timeshare purchase, I'm going to just go with Marriott DC trust points or DVC. Both those systems don't have guest certificate, reservation or housekeeping costs. Your annual costs are your maintenance fees, that's it.



You are still paying housekeeping. It’s just being rolled into the maintenance fees. The smaller systems can do the “all you can eat” model and wrap up housekeeping with maintenance fees, but it doesn’t work as well with an owner base the size of Wyndham. Everyone has a different travel lifestyle. Most DVC members probably stay full weeks or at least use up their points in one trip. That’s easier to budget housekeeping. It’s harder to budget housekeeping for hundreds of thousands of Wyndham owners who can more easily stretch their points and do multiple shorter stays. Wyndham has to do a pay for what you use model so that people don’t have to pay for what they don’t use. At the same time, they do give “free” credits to reduce the need to pay for housekeeping. I would imagine most people won’t have an issue with running out of credits. Even some who do short stays might have enough because where they go burns up their points before they run out of credits. 

Good luck with renting that two bedroom deluxe over Christmas. I tried to and the best offer I got wouldn’t even cover my maintenance fees on those points. There is too much competition. Find another location or find someone who wants to go somewhere and offer to rent to them.


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## Richelle (Oct 16, 2020)

tschwa2 said:


> In older resorts that were originally based on weeks stay the budget for the HOA would have included one unit cleaning per week. I wouldn't be surprised if UDI's still include 52 cleanings per unit times the number of units as part of the budget. Additional cleanings from VIP stays should presumably be paid out of wyndham developer funds, the same that pays the salary for sales, etc. Additional cleanings from non VIP's should come from member paid HK fees.- although my belief based on looking at budgets from many different resorts is that the HK fees are higher than a single cleaning for that size unit , therefore having non vip's who make multiple short stays subsidizing somewhat for the VIP multiple short stays. The new system will do the same.



As I mentioned before, the housekeeping you see in the HOA budget is for cleaning common areas such as lobbies, hallways, elevators, offices, storage areas, public restrooms, etc. the housekeeping credits pay for the unit cleaning. Housekeeping credits are paid for by the program fees we pay. Not point sales. VIP benefits are paid for by the program fees we pay. That’s why we have to pay program fees on PIC points, even if we don’t exchange the week for points.


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## Eric B (Oct 16, 2020)

tschwa2 said:


> ... non vip's who make multiple short stays subsidizing somewhat for the VIP multiple short stays.  The new system will do the same.





Richelle said:


> ....  VIP benefits are paid for by the program fees we pay. That’s why we have to pay program fees on PIC points, even if we don’t exchange the week for points.



I'm a VIPG with several PIC weeks getting me the right number of eligible points for that status. I'm not sure how most folks use their PIC weeks, but I don't deposit mine with Wyndham every year, although I do pay the program fees for the points every month in order to enjoy the VIP status.  When I do PIC one of my weeks, I pay an additional fee for the conversion.  I'm happy with the system and believe that my payments are covering the additional flexibility inherent in unlimited reservation transactions and housekeeping.  Because I'm paying the extra program fees for the PIC weeks (which I don't always convert to Wyndham points) and I'm paying at the PlusPartners higher rate, I don't feel like I'm being subsidized by non-VIP short stays.  I'm sure it could be different for VIPs that use all their potential PIC points every year for short stays, although the mid-week tidy for some does add another housekeeping event for longer stays, too.  That's just a fact of life for anything that is budgeted and charged by a surrogate costing method rather than directly.

Also, I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, but the program fee on 70k points would be $43.40 without PlusPartners or $44.80 with.  Neither would cover a $159 cost for housekeeping, which is what I would expect if the amount for a housekeeping credit truly represented the cost.  The average housekeeper wage in the U.S. is ~$12 per hour based on a very brief internet search, with a range from $7 to $18 per hour.  Allowing for 100% overhead and indirect costs to cover management and benefits would put housekeeping at $24 per hour and if it cost $159 to clean a unit that would equate to just under 7 person-hours.  I suspect that the price is set on the high side in order to act as a disincentive for the cost driver of multiple short stays.


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## Roger830 (Oct 16, 2020)

Because of covid, members have transferred points into 2021. There is not going to be enough availability for all of those points as well as the 2021 year's points.

When the 2021 points are transferred to a future year, the housekeeping credits don't transfer as in the past, so there will potentially be cleaning costs for most non vip members. This could be a significant reason for not even using the points.


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## keno999 (Oct 16, 2020)

RingsTug said:


> Wyndham just posted that starting Nov 1st 2020, housekeeping credits will change. You will get 1 credit/70,000 pts you own. Each stay is 1 credit. If you're a gold or higher vip it's unlimited.
> Not good for a resale purchaser like me who has 154k points and will only get 2 credits. I can squeak out several trips with value and deals but now it's $159 if you don't have credits


We have a grandfathered Silver account and we have unlimited housekeeping now so hopefully that will continue after Nov 1.


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## paxsarah (Oct 16, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> When the 2021 points are transferred to a future year, the housekeeping credits don't transfer as in the past, so there will potentially be cleaning costs for most non vip members. This could be a significant reason for not even using the points.


It seems the owners this will disproportionately affect are biennial owners who have zero housekeeping credits in the off years. Otherwise, I see it more as an incentive to travel a certain way - for a big family trip, for instance, with fewer housekeeping credits I might try for a 4BR unit rather than two 2BR units. Or instead of a trip where we hop between 4 different resorts (as my family did last year), we'll limit it to 2 or 3. Or an RCI exchange may seem more appealing if I'm out of housekeeping credits because the incremental difference between the cost of a housekeeping credit and an RCI exchange fee isn't that much.

Now whether Wyndham is intentionally trying to incentivize those types of travel, I don't know. I'm going to guess that there will be unintended consequences.


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## Richelle (Oct 16, 2020)

keno999 said:


> We have a grandfathered Silver account and we have unlimited housekeeping now so hopefully that will continue after Nov 1.



As mentioned in multiple areas including the original post above, it will. All VIPs will keep their unlimited housekeeping.


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## Sandy VDH (Oct 16, 2020)

Glad I am keeping Unlimited HK.  But I view it as a  'for now'.  I used to have unlimited GCs but they got rid of that too.  Mind you I have never run out of GC in the new system, so I am ok with that change, as it has zero impact on me. It has changed my behavior as know I only add the GC when it is getting close to the cancellation period.  Just so I don't burn one.


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## jwalk03 (Oct 16, 2020)

I like simplification, but the cost of $159 if you run out seems pretty high!  But my biggest complaint here would be that the HK credits do move with banked points!


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## Richelle (Oct 16, 2020)

Sandy VDH said:


> Glad I am keeping Unlimited HK. But I view it as a 'for now'. I used to have unlimited GCs but they got rid of that too. Mind you I have never run out of GC in the new system, so I am ok with that change, as it has zero impact on me. It has changed my behavior as know I only add the GC when it is getting close to the cancellation period. Just so I don't burn one.



Didn’t the unlimited GC removal happen in the Fairfield days? No doubt a result of the mega renters. Maybe if Wyndham merged with another company things may change. I view it as a “for now” as well.


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## Sandy VDH (Oct 16, 2020)

Richelle said:


> Didn’t the unlimited GC removal happen in the Fairfield days? No doubt a result of the mega renters. Maybe if Wyndham merged with another company things may change. I view it as a “for now” as well.



No it was Wyndham by then, at least I think so.  Don't recall the exact dates when either of those changes happened.


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## ecwinch (Oct 16, 2020)

Richelle said:


> As I mentioned before, the housekeeping you see in the HOA budget is for cleaning common areas such as lobbies, hallways, elevators, offices, storage areas, public restrooms, etc. the housekeeping credits pay for the unit cleaning. Housekeeping credits are paid for by the program fees we pay. Not point sales. VIP benefits are paid for by the program fees we pay. That’s why we have to pay program fees on PIC points, even if we don’t exchange the week for points.



I think I understand your perspective on this point, but not entirely sure I agree. Keep in mind that generally speaking, the HOA budget is an aggregation of individual resorts that make up the Club.  And it is more true that not, that those individual HOA's budgets are structured on a 52-53 week model, with housekeeping set accordingly. 

So the Club's "revenues" have to make up that gap between the charges incurred at the resort level. 

Take for instance Kauai Beach Villa's. Wyndham owns a collection of weeks there, paying the annual maintenance fees. But when a Club Wyndham owner books a stay there, they have the ability to book stays less than a week long, and if enough Wyndham owners do that - some compensation has to flow back to the resort. Creating a direct expense without direct revenue. Something this model gives them more control over.


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## BDMX2 (Oct 16, 2020)

Richelle said:


> Housekeeping has remained the same for as long as i've been a member.  I purchased in 2008.  It makes sense that 12 years later, costs would have to increase.  This is from page 334 of the 2009-2010 directory.
> 
> View attachment 27567


Just thinking through this again...the value of the HK credits would have gone up over the years since the associated dues would presumably have gone up, right?  The chart is HK credits per room and not a HK dollar value per room.


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## Richelle (Oct 16, 2020)

BDMX2 said:


> Just thinking through this again...the value of the HK credits would have gone up over the years since the associated dues would presumably have gone up, right? The chart is HK credits per room and not a HK dollar value per room.



I’m aware of what the chart is. I was pointing out two things. One, the number of credits needed for a room has not changed and two, the cost of the housekeeping credit has remained $2.25 per 1,000 points. When you translate those credits to $, a one bedroom cost $141.75 to clean. It’s been that way for over 12 years. Salaries and insurance alone for those employees is higher then what it was in 2008.


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## BDMX2 (Oct 16, 2020)

Richelle said:


> I’m aware of what the chart is. I was pointing out two things. One, the number of credits needed for a room has not changed and two, the cost of the housekeeping credit has remained $2.25 per 1,000 points. When you translate those credits to $, a one bedroom cost $141.75 to clean. It’s been that way for over 12 years. Salaries and insurance alone for those employees is higher then what it was in 2008.


Gotcha, I didn't catch that the purchase price of $2.25 per 1,000 hadn't changed.


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## harveyhaddixfan (Oct 16, 2020)

Richelle said:


> I’m aware of what the chart is. I was pointing out two things. One, the number of credits needed for a room has not changed and two, the cost of the housekeeping credit has remained $2.25 per 1,000 points. When you translate those credits to $, a one bedroom cost $141.75 to clean. It’s been that way for over 12 years. Salaries and insurance alone for those employees is higher then what it was in 2008.



Only it doesn’t cost $2.25 per thousand points to clean a room. The detailed budget for Grand Desert 2020 lists laundry & linen services as $.12, housekeeping $1.27 and trash removal $.02. That’s $1.41 per thousand. If you book a 1BR and it took 63 HK credits, that’s $88.83. The $2.25 is only if you need extra. It’s a “penalty” charge if you will. Just like renting points is almost double your maintenance fees. One can assume that it would be more in some places and less in others. I’m fine with the 1 credit needed per reservation, but extras should be based on unit size just as the old way required more HK credits. Many RCI resorts list a price for less than a week stay that varies by unit. But it’s absurd to pay $159 for HK on a studio and 1BR when it should be $99 or less. (I’m borderline where I will get 2 and could possibly use 3.)


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## Richelle (Oct 16, 2020)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> Only it doesn’t cost $2.25 per thousand points to clean a room. The detailed budget for Grand Desert 2020 lists laundry & linen services as $.12, housekeeping $1.27 and trash removal $.02. That’s $1.41 per thousand. If you book a 1BR and it took 63 HK credits, that’s $88.83. The $2.25 is only if you need extra. It’s a “penalty” charge if you will. Just like renting points is almost double your maintenance fees. One can assume that it would be more in some places and less in others. I’m fine with the 1 credit needed per reservation, but extras should be based on unit size just as the old way required more HK credits. Many RCI resorts list a price for less than a week stay that varies by unit. But it’s absurd to pay $159 for HK on a studio and 1BR when it should be $99 or less. (I’m borderline where I will get 2 and could possibly use 3.)



The housekeeping in the HOA budget does not cover unit cleanings. The housekeeping credits do. The HOA housekeeping line item you see is to cover the cost of cleaning the common areas like hallways, lobbies, public restrooms, elevators, storage areas, offices, stores, locker rooms, fitness areas, etc. it does not include the unit cleanings as I already mentioned in an earlier post.


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## 55plus (Oct 16, 2020)

Richelle said:


> Didn’t the unlimited GC removal happen in the Fairfield days? No doubt a result of the mega renters. Maybe if Wyndham merged with another company things may change. I view it as a “for now” as well.


It happened under Wyndham.


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## harveyhaddixfan (Oct 16, 2020)

Richelle said:


> The housekeeping in the HOA budget does not cover unit cleanings. The housekeeping credits do. The HOA housekeeping line item you see is to cover the cost of cleaning the common areas like hallways, lobbies, public restrooms, elevators, storage areas, offices, stores, locker rooms, fitness areas, etc. it does not include the unit cleanings as I already mentioned in an earlier post.



There’s no way. This is a $28 million budget and $6.7 million is housekeeping. The management fee is only $2.5 million. There’s no way 1/4 of a budget is for cleaning common areas.


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## Richelle (Oct 16, 2020)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> There’s no way. This is a $28 million budget and $6.7 million is housekeeping. The management fee is only $2.5 million. There’s no way 1/4 of a budget is for cleaning common areas.



Call the HOA if you don’t believe me. I’m sure they will be happy to explain what the housekeeping line item pays for.


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## Richelle (Oct 16, 2020)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> There’s no way. This is a $28 million budget and $6.7 million is housekeeping. The management fee is only $2.5 million. There’s no way 1/4 of a budget is for cleaning common areas.



I have seen housekeeping revenue on budgets before. I assume that’s money coming from Wyndham to reimburse the cost of the unit cleanings. The HOA probably handles the contract for the company that does the housekeeping. If that’s the case, the unit cleanings would be rolled into that number, but you would subtract the 2.3 million on housekeeping revenue from the 6.7 million housekeeping expense. That leaves 4.4 million for common areas. Keep in mind, common areas isn’t just hallways and lobbies. It’s fitness centers, public restrooms, storage rooms, elevators, offices, break rooms, locker rooms, and so on. It’s a lot to clean.


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## Roger830 (Oct 16, 2020)

One cleaning per week has to be in the hoa fee.

I own a fixed week converted to points. If I take it out of points, my hoa fee will remain the same and pay for one cleaning for the week.


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## frankf3 (Oct 16, 2020)

Can we clarify, if points are banked to future years, the HK credits would not be banked with the points?

If that is correct it's absurd!   You are paying for the HK as part of maintenance.   The HK credits move with the points today.


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## samara64 (Oct 16, 2020)

Wyndham can do whatever they want as it is their system. No oversight what so ever.


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## harveyhaddixfan (Oct 16, 2020)

Richelle said:


> I have seen housekeeping revenue on budgets before. I assume that’s money coming from Wyndham to reimburse the cost of the unit cleanings. The HOA probably handles the contract for the company that does the housekeeping. If that’s the case, the unit cleanings would be rolled into that number, but you would subtract the 2.3 million on housekeeping revenue from the 6.7 million housekeeping expense. That leaves 4.4 million for common areas. Keep in mind, common areas isn’t just hallways and lobbies. It’s fitness centers, public restrooms, storage rooms, elevators, offices, break rooms, locker rooms, and so on. It’s a lot to clean.



Directly from the Wyndham directory:

The Program Fee is determined annually by the program’s Board of Directors on a pro-rata basis depending on the number of points assigned to each Member. This fee is used to pay the operating and administrative expenses, such as resort personnel, Owner Services, telephone and computer systems, Member Directories and updates, the Plan Manager fee, annual audits and other related expenses. There are some services offered by the program that are not paid from the Program Fee. The rates are included in the description of these services in this Directory. Rates shown are subject to change.

The amount of the HOA Fee is determined by the Board
of Directors of the underlying Home Owners’ Association. Expenses typically covered by the HOA Fee include on-site maintenance and resort services for Members such as main- tenance of common areas, interiors and appliances as well as major refurbishment expenses, housekeeping, utilities, taxes (with the exception of some resorts for which a separate bill is sent for the annual property taxes) and on-site management.

So yes, housekeeping is included in your maintenance fees, not the program fees.


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## Richelle (Oct 16, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> One cleaning per week has to be in the hoa fee.
> 
> I own a fixed week converted to points. If I take it out of points, my hoa fee will remain the same and pay for one cleaning for the week.



You’re comparing fixed weeks to points. Two different systems.


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## Richelle (Oct 16, 2020)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> Directly from the Wyndham directory:
> 
> The Program Fee is determined annually by the program’s Board of Directors on a pro-rata basis depending on the number of points assigned to each Member. This fee is used to pay the operating and administrative expenses, such as resort personnel, Owner Services, telephone and computer systems, Member Directories and updates, the Plan Manager fee, annual audits and other related expenses. There are some services offered by the program that are not paid from the Program Fee. The rates are included in the description of these services in this Directory. Rates shown are subject to change.
> 
> ...



Ask the HOA board where the housekeeping revenue comes from and get back to me.


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## Roger830 (Oct 16, 2020)

Richelle said:


> You’re comparing fixed weeks to points. Two different systems.



It's my understanding that the points system started by assigning point values to the weeks and adding the program fee to pay for managing the system. 
The housekeeping was already in the hoa fee. The udi system came later and I assume, to be consistant, it would also have housekeeping in the hoa fee. Otherwise I'm paying twice for housekeeping, once in the hoa fee and then again in the program fee.


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## Richelle (Oct 16, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> It's my understanding that the points system started by assigning point values to the weeks and adding the program fee to pay for managing the system.
> The housekeeping was already in the hoa fee. The udi system came later and I assume, to be consistant, it would also have housekeeping in the hoa fee. Otherwise I'm paying twice for housekeeping, once in the hoa fee and then again in the program fee.



Then how would you explain resorts that never were weeks like National Harbor or Canterbury? When you convert to points it changes. When it’s weeks, you typically pay the maintenance fees to the resort directly. When it’s points, you pay to Wyndham who disperses the funds to the resort. It’s like when a company buys another company. The old company has to change their policies to fit the new company. When it’s in the points system, the policies change.


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## Roger830 (Oct 17, 2020)

Richelle said:


> Then how would you explain resorts that never were weeks like National Harbor or Canterbury? When you convert to points it changes. When it’s weeks, you typically pay the maintenance fees to the resort directly. When it’s points, you pay to Wyndham who disperses the funds to the resort. It’s like when a company buys another company. The old company has to change their policies to fit the new company. When it’s in the points system, the policies change.



At Sea Gardens, one of the oldest resorts in Wyndham, there are many fixed week owners that have never converted to points. It's my understanding that they are billed once a year by the management, in this situation Wyndham, for their mf.

Because my unit was converted to points before I bought it, I pay monthly the same program fee per 1000 points that owner's at the other points resorts pay. I also pay 1/12 monthly the same hoa fee non-point owners pay. So the housekeeping for one week's reservation has to be included in the hoa fee. I don't know how additional housekeeping for short stays gets paid.

There's no way that the program fee could pay for all housekeeping because you can reserve a full week at some resorts for as low as 42,000, 63,000, 77,000 points. That would be $26, $39, $48 at the $0.62 / 1000 program fee rate. There could be three cleanings per week for short stays.


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## Richelle (Oct 17, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> There's no way that the program fee could pay for all housekeeping because you can reserve a full week at some resorts for as low as 42,000, 63,000, 77,000 points. That would be $26, $39, $48 at the $0.62 / 1000 program fee rate. There could be three cleanings per week for short stays.



And now you know why the system has to change. Maybe Wyndham pays part of the housekeeping with the credits and the HOA pays the rest but that’s not how it was explained to me by one of the managers. I forget his title, but he wasn’t a board member. I think he was a general manager. He said the housekeeping credits paid for cleaning of the units. I never questioned it because the directory says the housekeeping credits were used for the cleaning of your unit prior to arrival. I always had an issue with that wording, but that’s another discussion. It was explained to me elsewhere that paying to clean the units was a program expense. Otherwise the Housekeeping I pay for National harbor would pay to clean a unit in National harbor and not at Bonnet Creek where I was staying.


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## Roger830 (Oct 17, 2020)

Richelle said:


> And now you know why the system has to change. Maybe Wyndham pays part of the housekeeping with the credits and the HOA pays the rest but that’s not how it was explained to me by one of the managers. I forget his title, but he wasn’t a board member. I think he was a general manager. He said the housekeeping credits paid for cleaning of the units. I never questioned it because the directory says the housekeeping credits were used for the cleaning of your unit prior to arrival. I always had an issue with that wording, but that’s another discussion. It was explained to me elsewhere that paying to clean the units was a program expense. Otherwise the Housekeeping I pay for National harbor would pay to clean a unit in National harbor and not at Bonnet Creek where I was staying.



I suspect that the hoa only pays for one cleaning per week.

At Sea Gardens and the Newport resorts where we stay, there are a lot of fixed week owners that never converted to points. It wouldn't be in their best interests to pay the housekeeping for those with short stays. Wyndham must provide the funds which is getting too expensive. They exacerbated the problem by allowing 2 night stays at 10 months. It used to be 3 or 4 nights only, with the week's starting or ending date one of the nights.


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## spackler (Oct 18, 2020)

The stipulation that HKs can't be deposited for future years (or even borrowed) is the real killer here.  

Like many others, I've had lots of cancellations in 2020 so I'll have a TON of points pushed to 2021, but relatively few HKs to go along with them.


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## dgalati (Oct 18, 2020)

Richelle said:


> And now you know why the system has to change. Maybe Wyndham pays part of the housekeeping with the credits and the HOA pays the rest but that’s not how it was explained to me by one of the managers. I forget his title, but he wasn’t a board member. I think he was a general manager. He said the housekeeping credits paid for cleaning of the units. I never questioned it because the directory says the housekeeping credits were used for the cleaning of your unit prior to arrival. I always had an issue with that wording, but that’s another discussion. It was explained to me elsewhere that paying to clean the units was a program expense. Otherwise the Housekeeping I pay for National harbor would pay to clean a unit in National harbor and not at Bonnet Creek where I was staying.


With this HK change now more then ever it is cheaper to rent from a VIP than own and be burdened with another fee.  Especially if you are booking short 3 day stays. The HK fee will surely be raised over time as maintenance fees have. I compare this HK fee as a money grab as with some  RCI resorts that charge a daily $26 resort fee.


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## dgalati (Oct 18, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> It seems the owners this will disproportionately affect are biennial owners who have zero housekeeping credits in the off years. Otherwise, I see it more as an incentive to travel a certain way - for a big family trip, for instance, with fewer housekeeping credits I might try for a 4BR unit rather than two 2BR units. Or instead of a trip where we hop between 4 different resorts (as my family did last year), we'll limit it to 2 or 3. Or an RCI exchange may seem more appealing if I'm out of housekeeping credits because the incremental difference between the cost of a housekeeping credit and an RCI exchange fee isn't that much.
> 
> Now whether Wyndham is intentionally trying to incentivize those types of travel, I don't know. I'm going to guess that there will be unintended consequences.


Yes RCI will be more appealing using up to 1/2 the points booking with Wyndham


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## dgalati (Oct 18, 2020)

spackler said:


> The stipulation that HKs can't be deposited for future years (or even borrowed) is the real killer here.
> 
> Like many others, I've had lots of cancellations in 2020 so I'll have a TON of points pushed to 2021, but relatively few HKs to go along with them.


Surely a way for Wyndham to squeeze out their competition on rentals.


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## Richelle (Oct 18, 2020)

dgalati said:


> With this HK change now more then ever it is cheaper to rent from a VIP than own and be burdened with another fee. Especially if you are booking short 3 day stays. The HK fee will surely be raised over time as maintenance fees have. I compare this HK fee as a money grab as with some RCI resorts that charge a daily $26 resort fee.



In the short term sure. But new VIPs won’t have unlimited. They will have extra, but not unlimited. As VIPs exit, there will be fewer and fewer who have unlimited housekeeping. The new VIPs who rent out might have to add in the HK cost to their rental price.


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## kaljor (Oct 18, 2020)

I did think of a small positive.  There have been times when a stayed for a week but really would have preferred 9 or 10 days but wouldn't book that as a way to conserve the HK credits so I didn't run into a crunch toward the end of the year.  There was a time last year where I had a week at Bonnet Creek and ended up staying 3 more nights at a Holiday Inn which had some fantastic sale going on at the time with a cheap rate and waived parking and resort fees.  As a resale owner I do manage my HK's somewhat carefully, which means sometimes staying in a Studio as opposed to a 1 bedroom, so I won't have to do that anymore, and lastly, over the past couple of years I've started making 2 week reservations once or twice a year so the change will suit my new pattern better.  

Now different people have different situations and may not want to do that or be able to do that but I bet most people will adapt just fine after the first full year of the new system.


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## Roger830 (Oct 18, 2020)

Like others have mentioned, I'm disappointed that housekeeping credits can't be pushed forward with points.

Also the cost of $159 is way too high for a one bedroom or less. We used to book a hotel room in midtown nyc. Why does it cost $159 to clean one room? Super8 motel rooms rent for less than $100. Are they not cleaned?  

Also when 70 is divided into my yearly total points, I have 63 left over that now can't be used. (63/70 = 90%) Why can't I buy 7 more credits each year for $15.90? I shouldn't lose that $143.10


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## kaljor (Oct 18, 2020)

I hear you, I'm 20,000 points short of an additional credit.  $159 is a pretty steep fee but I think Richelle's theory about averaging the cost is correct.  It doesn't cost $159 to clean a hotel room or a 400 Square Foot Studio, but it has to cost more than that to clean a 3 or 4 bedroom unit.


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## dgalati (Oct 19, 2020)

Richelle said:


> In the short term sure. But new VIPs won’t have unlimited. They will have extra, but not unlimited. As VIPs exit, there will be fewer and fewer who have unlimited housekeeping. The new VIPs who rent out might have to add in the HK cost to their rental price.


I doubt it. So many just trying to cover maintenance fees. The burden begins with not being able to travel. The reality is owners not traveling will rent for less then their cost to cover some of the maintenance fees.


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## Roger830 (Oct 19, 2020)

kaljor said:


> I hear you, I'm 20,000 points short of an additional credit.  $159 is a pretty steep fee but I think Richelle's theory about averaging the cost is correct.  It doesn't cost $159 to clean a hotel room or a 400 Square Foot Studio, but it has to cost more than that to clean a 3 or 4 bedroom unit.



Using a simple average cost is the wrong way to do it because there are many more studios and 1-bed than 3 and 4-bed units.

They should use a weighted average. Multiply the quantity of each unit type by the unit type cleaning cost, add those costs, then divide by the total amount of units in the points system.

I just checked some 1,2,3 bedroom condos in Wildwood, NJ for June on vrbo and cleaning fees are $75-$125.

Charging $159 to captive members who have no vote is price gouging.


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## Eric B (Oct 19, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> Using a simple average cost is the wrong way to do it because there are many more studios and 1-bed than 3 and 4-bed units.
> 
> They should use a weighted average. Multiply the quantity of each unit type by the unit type cleaning cost, add those costs, then divide by the total amount of units in the points system.
> 
> ...



I hadn’t seen any statements regarding how they were determining the housekeeping costs, just speculation that it was an average cost without discussion of the possibility of weighting.

My purely speculative input is that the price was selected based, in part only, on the costs of having the housekeeping done, in combination with a desire to disincentivize short stays that are cost drivers.

I’m not sure the VRBO cleaning fees are necessarily comparable.  VRBO posters are not limited to using such fees and only those fees for cleaning, are they?  Are the postings available for variable lengths of stays (1-14 days), or are they for set periods?  Probably a lot of variables that go into setting those prices.

I do agree that setting a housekeeping fee of $159 for any stay could be perceived as price gouging, particularly when those costs have been traditionally included in maintenance fees.  That’s not what has happened, though.  Instead, Wyndham is allocating a certain number of free housekeeping credits to owners based on point allocations that are paid for, possibly averaging to one credit for the equivalent of a week stay in some sort of unit.  On top of that, they’ve established a cost for additional credits.


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## dgalati (Oct 19, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> Like others have mentioned, I'm disappointed that housekeeping credits can't be pushed forward with points.
> 
> Also the cost of $159 is way too high for a one bedroom or less. We used to book a hotel room in midtown nyc. Why does it cost $159 to clean one room? Super8 motel rooms rent for less than $100. Are they not cleaned?
> 
> Also when 70 is divided into my yearly total points, I have 63 left over that now can't be used. (63/70 = 90%) Why can't I buy 7 more credits each year for $15.90? I shouldn't lose that $143.10


$159 is way out of line when you factor in the maintenance fees paid. This fee helps to subsidize the free HKs that are received by Vip owners. I feel Wyndham should be doing more to eliminate free HKs that the mega renters are using to abuse the systems loopholes. Adding this $159 HK fee to non VIP owners is subsidizing the free VIP HKs. VIP owners that are mega renters are using VIP discounts along with their resale points are at the expense of non VIP owners using the club for personal use. JMHO


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## dgalati (Oct 19, 2020)

Eric B said:


> I do agree that setting a housekeeping fee of $159 for any stay could be perceived as price gouging, particularly when those costs have been traditionally included in maintenance fees.  That’s not what has happened, though.  Instead, Wyndham is allocating a certain number of free housekeeping credits to owners based on point allocations that are paid for, possibly averaging to one credit for the equivalent of a week stay in some sort of unit.  On top of that, they’ve established a cost for additional credits.


$159 is price gouging. When you consider the free HKs allotted to VIP owners the $159 is a way to subsidize the FREE HK's for VIP owners.


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## liquidmas (Oct 19, 2020)

I moved points forward and paid extra to have housecleaning credits to match points. I spoke with owner care to confirm that those points moved would have HK credits after the change. Yes they will be given 1 per 70K points moved. I will be alright with the change. This does add value to existing VIP accounts. Does not hurt me with how I book.


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## spackler (Oct 19, 2020)

Technically, someone could book more 2021 vacations than their new HK allotment allows right now; will those people be charged $159 retroactively?


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## northovr (Oct 19, 2020)

*Leave Housework At Home*
Your Housekeeping Credits just got a refresh. With these updates you won’t have to worry about your length of stay or size of suite. You simply need 1 Housekeeping Credit plus your points per reservation. Here’s how it works:
You’ll receive 1 Housekeeping Credit per 70,000 points annually at the start of your Use Year. These Housekeeping Credits will only be needed when you book a reservation through Club Wyndham or Wyndham Club Pass — you won’t need Housekeeping Credits for exchanges, points deposits, or charitable gift donations.
How will this work if you deposit in Interval International?
Daniel


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## tschwa2 (Oct 19, 2020)

Just for comparison RCI's typical housekeeping charge for those staying less than 7 days (or book in such a way that they have to change units- maybe a Wed-Wed) a studio -1br is  $60-$80  a 2BR is $80-$115 and 3BR and larger $120-$150.  Wyndham has recently updated their rci housekeeping fees to a flat $75 regardless of size.

Keep in mind though that if 2 people are splitting a week 3/4 or 5/2 the fee from both parties for a 2 BR would be an average of $200 for the one extra cleaning as the unit would be cleaned at the end of the week through the regular MF's.


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 19, 2020)

Why don't they just use the same fees as Worldmark for extra housekeeping? Honestly, they should just add Bonus Time to Club Wyndham for stays 14 days before check in. That will get rid of the issue of studios not getting booked because people don't want to waste housekeeping tokens. They should also make the fees the SAME as Worldmark for extra cleanings, like in the chart I linked below in Worldmark's owner guide. Making last minute inventory available to owners for CASH will increase their revenue by increasing their occupancy. What makes timeshares profitable is high occupancy and the owners can still occupy the inventory that is left over from defaults/unsold points. If this was about revenue/profit, they're doing it wrong. Nobody is going to want to stay in a studio now and their is no system in place for people to pick up the inventory last minute.


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## dgalati (Oct 19, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Why don't they just use the same fees as Worldmark for extra housekeeping? Honestly, they should just add Bonus Time to Club Wyndham for stays 14 days before check in. That will get rid of the issue of studios not getting booked because people don't want to waste housekeeping tokens. They should also make the fees the SAME as Worldmark for extra cleanings, like in the chart I linked below in Worldmark's owner guide. Making last minute inventory available to owners for CASH will increase their revenue by increasing their occupancy. What makes timeshares profitable is high occupancy and the owners can still occupy the inventory that is left over from defaults/unsold points. If this was about revenue/profit, they're doing it wrong. Nobody is going to want to stay in a studio now and their is no system in place for people to pick up the inventory last minute.
> 
> View attachment 27721


Common sense perspective from a owner owning both Wyndham and Worldmark. Its insane to see Worldmark only charges $150 for a four bedroom compared to Wyndhams across the board fee of $159 on all room sizes. I still think the $159 is a clever way to subsidize the free HK's for VIP owners. Worldmark is a better deal imho if you are not inclined to buy into the status of VIP.


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## Richelle (Oct 19, 2020)

dgalati said:


> $159 is way out of line when you factor in the maintenance fees paid. This fee helps to subsidize the free HKs that are received by Vip owners. I feel Wyndham should be doing more to eliminate free HKs that the mega renters are using to abuse the systems loopholes. Adding this $159 HK fee to non VIP owners is subsidizing the free VIP HKs. VIP owners that are mega renters are using VIP discounts along with their resale points are at the expense of non VIP owners using the club for personal use. JMHO


Do you have solid proof that the $159 is to subsidize the cost of VIP free housekeeping or is it a theory?  If you have proof, please share it.  Also, I should mention that those cheap rentals you are always talking about, are possible because VIP gets resale cheap and are able to use their VIP benefits with those points.  So by advocating that it goes away, you're shooting yourself in the foot.  You'll always have desperate owners, but the less profit there is in renting, the fewer people who will rent.  You'll be left with the desperate ones that are struggling to keep up with their loans and maintenance fee payments.  You better hope they don't get behind on their payments because your reservation will get canceled and you lose that money.  Not to mention there will be less rental supply, so prices go up.  The good news though is we owners will have more inventory available.  The ones who actually want to use it for their own personal use and enjoyment can do just that.  I won't lose anything if they take away the ability to use VIP benefits on resale points.  Every year we do at least one big family vacation that requires planning far out and a lot of points.  The points that are left, are less than the 700k that are VIP eligible.  Between discounts and upgrades, I can get plenty of vacations with the points that are considered VIP eligible.  They will be for my own personal use and enjoyment.  So it won't bother me if they take it away, but it will bother a lot of people, and not just mega renters,  Actual owners who use their timeshare for themselves.  The retirees who snowbird over the winter, or travel the country with their timeshare.  I believe that change will hurt more people than help.  I see your rental market getting hurt by the housekeeping change.  It will get hurt even more if they take away the ability to use our VIP benefits with resale points.  The resale market will be hurt too.  Hopefully, the people who want to will be able to use Ovations.


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## dgalati (Oct 19, 2020)

Richelle said:


> Do you have solid proof that the $159 is to subsidize the cost of VIP free housekeeping or is it a theory?  If you have proof, please share it.  Also, I should mention that those cheap rentals you are always talking about, are possible because VIP gets resale cheap and are able to use their VIP benefits with those points.  So by advocating that it goes away, you're shooting yourself in the foot.  You'll always have desperate owners, but the less profit there is in renting, the fewer people who will rent.  You'll be left with the desperate ones that are struggling to keep up with their loans and maintenance fee payments.  You better hope they don't get behind on their payments because your reservation will get canceled and you lose that money.  Not to mention there will be less rental supply, so prices go up.  The good news though is we owners will have more inventory available.  The ones who actually want to use it for their own personal use and enjoyment can do just that.  I won't lose anything if they take away the ability to use VIP benefits on resale points.  Every year we do at least one big family vacation that requires planning far out and a lot of points.  The points that are left, are less than the 700k that are VIP eligible.  Between discounts and upgrades, I can get plenty of vacations with the points that are considered VIP eligible.  They will be for my own personal use and enjoyment.  So it won't bother me if they take it away, but it will bother a lot of people, and not just mega renters,  Actual owners who use their timeshare for themselves.  The retirees who snowbird over the winter, or travel the country with their timeshare.  I believe that change will hurt more people than help.  I see your rental market getting hurt by the housekeeping change.  It will get hurt even more if they take away the ability to use our VIP benefits with resale points.  The resale market will be hurt too.  Hopefully, the people who want to will be able to use Ovations.


Its not about me and how I have made the system work for my personal use. I just am calling out this additional fee that supports the Free HK's.  I agree @Richelle it will hurt the cheap rentals to a certain extent. My point is the $159 is subsidizing the FREE HK's. IMHO Wyndham made a decision to protect the goose that laid the golden egg (VIP Owners that spent 6 figures) and sacrificed the common owner. This policy only benefits VIP owners using free HK'S to rent the resale points that are used with VIP benefits. My question to you prove to me how it doesn't benefit VIP owners with free HK's the most. I am open to others view points but the additional fee will really hurt the owners that use the club for personal use booking 2-3 night get away reservations. FREE HK's are being abused by VIP mega renters that use them with resale points and the VIP discounts.  Worldmark has a much better way of charging this additional fee and at a much lower cost to the owners.


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## Richelle (Oct 19, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Its not about me and how I have made the system work for my personal use. I just am calling out this additional fee that supports the Free HK's. I agree @Richelle it will hurt the cheap rentals to a certain extent. My point is the $159 is subsidizing the FREE HK's. IMHO Wyndham made a decision to protect the goose that laid the golden egg (VIP Owners that spent 6 figures) and sacrificed the common owner. This policy only benefits VIP owners using free HK'S to rent the resale points that are used with VIP benefits. My question to you prove to me how it doesn't benefit VIP owners with free HK's the most. I am open to others view points but the additional fee will really hurt the owners that use the club for personal use booking 2-3 night get away reservations. FREE HK's are being abused by VIP mega renters that use them with resale points and the VIP discounts. Worldmark has a much better way of charging this additional fee and at a much lower cost to the owners.



I never said anything about it benefiting or not benefiting VIP owners the most. I asked you a question that you did not answer. My question was, do you have proof that the reason they are charging $159 is to subsidize free HK for VIPs? If they need to subsidize, it seems stupid to do it that way. Why not increase the program fee to cover it? That way you’d be spreading the cost of the free housekeeping across 440,000 owners and very few people question why they raised the program fee. If they were trying to hide their “real” motives, it seems tacking on a few pennies to the program fee would gather less attention then this. Your conspiracy theory doesn’t pan out when there are better and easier methods to make up for a shortage in housekeeping costs.


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## paxsarah (Oct 19, 2020)

dgalati said:


> I am open to others view points but the additional fee will really hurt the owners that use the club for personal use booking 2-3 night get away reservations.



The old HK fee structure did as well. The old way more hurt the owner who might want to grab a larger unit for that 2-3 nights; the new one is more likely to hurt the owner who wants a studio for the same short trip. (And not just one short trip balanced against longer trips, but taking only shorter trips.) But short stays were always the pitfall of HK, and still will be.


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## Eric B (Oct 20, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> ... short stays were always the pitfall of HK, and still will be.



I’m pretty sure that’s a feature of the system, not a bug....


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## Sandi Bo (Oct 20, 2020)

I thought the idea was simplicity, from an IT perspective. I saw quite a bit of struggle, on Wyndham's IT side, aligning/ensuring appropriate HK points were available before point deposits (or earlier credit pooling) were able to be done. Even with unlimited housekeeping, Wyndham has had to mess around with aligning HK points in order to move points. My conspiracy theory is Wyndham is trying to make things simpler.  Left over growing pains from going from weeks based reservations to the voyager methodology?


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## Eric B (Oct 20, 2020)

nicemann said:


> Wow just a FYI..  Glad we can opt out of the daily house keeping.
> 
> Desert Blue - Daily Housekeeping
> Thank you for choosing Desert Blue for your upcoming stay. We look forward to your visit.
> ...



Interesting post here (from a different thread) listing the HK costs for daily full cleanings at Desert Blue.  Makes the flat rate $159 for a credit seem not terribly off from an average cost.


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## northovr (Oct 20, 2020)

why does it cost 50 dollars extra to clean a 3 bedroom presidential how much different could it be?
Plus how is the Interval International deposit going to be affected by this new housekeeping rule?
Thanks Daniel


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## Eric B (Oct 20, 2020)

northovr said:


> why does it cost 50 dollars extra to clean a 3 bedroom presidential how much different could it be?
> ...



My guess is that the 3 BR Presidential units are larger (1553-1919 sq ft) than the 3 BR Deluxe (1399 sq ft).  Floor plan for a 3 BR Deluxe shows 2 bathrooms as compared to the listed 2 3/4 bathrooms for a 3 BR Presidential (and they probably get nicer toilet paper).  There might also be different appliances.  I would probably peg the added cost mostly to the additional bathrooms, though I've never been there.



northovr said:


> ... how is the Interval International deposit going to be affected by this new housekeeping rule?
> Thanks Daniel



The discussion on the Wyndham site included this (emphasis added):

These Housekeeping Credits will only be needed when you book a reservation through Club Wyndham or Wyndham Club Pass — *you won’t need Housekeeping Credits for exchanges*, points deposits, or charitable gift donations.


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## northovr (Oct 20, 2020)

Eric B said:


> My guess is that the 3 BR Presidential units are larger (1553-1919 sq ft) than the 3 BR Deluxe (1399 sq ft).  Floor plan for a 3 BR Deluxe shows 2 bathrooms as compared to the listed 2 3/4 bathrooms for a 3 BR Presidential (and they probably get nicer toilet paper).  There might also be different appliances.  I would probably peg the added cost mostly to the additional bathrooms, though I've never been there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I understand what it says but they dont even mention Interval International 
thanks Daniel Northover


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 20, 2020)

Sandy VDH said:


> No it was Wyndham by then, at least I think so.  Don't recall the exact dates when either of those changes happened.


About 2010.


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## Richelle (Oct 20, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> About 2010.



The 2009-2010 directory shows that Platinum VIPs get 15 GC per one million points. Same as today. The change was sometime prior to that. I don’t know when though.


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## paxsarah (Oct 20, 2020)

northovr said:


> Yes I understand what it says but they dont even mention Interval International
> thanks Daniel Northover


Interval International is exchanges. Though the vast majority of exchanges from Wyndham are through RCI, that language should apply to both exchange companies.


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## Eric B (Oct 20, 2020)

Additionally, Interval International exchanges aren't booked through Club Wyndham or Club Wyndham Pass, which are the only times housekeeping credits would be needed (the other half of the quoted statement).  I wouldn't worry about it.


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## northovr (Oct 20, 2020)

Eric B said:


> Additionally, Interval International exchanges aren't booked through Club Wyndham or Club Wyndham Pass, which are the only times housekeeping credits would be needed (the other half of the quoted statement).  I wouldn't worry about it.


yes I understand what it says It seems like every change wyndham  makes it worse than better I don't have enough  points left this year anyway from now on I will be booking larger units and larger than week stays


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## tschwa2 (Oct 20, 2020)

Richelle said:


> The 2009-2010 directory shows that Platinum VIPs get 15 GC per one million points. Same as today. The change was sometime prior to that. I don’t know when though.


According to this https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/2008-request-for-review-before-i-file-lawsuit.83333/; it was announced in May 2008 effective Oct 2008 at which time guest certificates were increased to $49 from $25.


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## Richelle (Oct 20, 2020)

tschwa2 said:


> According to this https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/2008-request-for-review-before-i-file-lawsuit.83333/; it was announced in May 2008 effective Oct 2008 at which time guest certificates were increased to $49 from $25.



Thanks. Considering it’s taking a year and a half for them to launch VIP by Wyndham, I’m sure that change and the others were planned out long before it was implemented. It could have been in 2006 when the spin off happened that they decided to make that changed.


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## troy12n (Oct 21, 2020)

I have seen some comments in here about these housekeeping changes being done to "subsidize" VIP's unlimited housekeeping... 

I will throw out a point of order that the additional cost per thousand that we pay for developer over resale is already subsidizing that... 

The mega renter issue will fix itself once their IT department figures out a way to not allow VIP benefits to flow to non-developer points.


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## 55plus (Oct 21, 2020)

Is a new official Wyndham directory in the making to show the HK fee changes?


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## Richelle (Oct 21, 2020)

55plus said:


> Is a new official Wyndham directory in the making to show the HK fee changes?



From what we were told at last years owners meeting in Austin , it’s due to be out this year. It may not come out until early next year is COVID delayed things.


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## dgalati (Oct 21, 2020)

Richelle said:


> I never said anything about it benefiting or not benefiting VIP owners the most. I asked you a question that you did not answer. My question was, do you have proof that the reason they are charging $159 is to subsidize free HK for VIPs? If they need to subsidize, it seems stupid to do it that way. Why not increase the program fee to cover it? That way you’d be spreading the cost of the free housekeeping across 440,000 owners and very few people question why they raised the program fee. If they were trying to hide their “real” motives, it seems tacking on a few pennies to the program fee would gather less attention then this. Your conspiracy theory doesn’t pan out when there are better and easier methods to make up for a shortage in housekeeping costs.





troy12n said:


> I have seen some comments in here about these housekeeping changes being done to "subsidize" VIP's unlimited housekeeping...
> 
> I will throw out a point of order that the additional cost per thousand that we pay for developer over resale is already subsidizing that...
> 
> The mega renter issue will fix itself once their IT department figures out a way to not allow VIP benefits to flow to non-developer points.


Its a loophole that many VIP owners are exploiting.  The rentals using resale points has been abused like cancel and rebook was It has become a benefit to some and sales has promoted it as a benefit to pay maintenance fees.


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## dgalati (Oct 21, 2020)

duplicate post


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## harveyhaddixfan (Oct 21, 2020)

troy12n said:


> I have seen some comments in here about these housekeeping changes being done to "subsidize" VIP's unlimited housekeeping...
> 
> I will throw out a point of order that the additional cost per thousand that we pay for developer over resale is already subsidizing that...
> 
> The mega renter issue will fix itself once their IT department figures out a way to not allow VIP benefits to flow to non-developer points.



Buy developer points isn’t subsidizing anything related to the upkeep of the resort. That’s paying for the construction of resorts and sales staff salaries/commission and other overhead. Assume you pay $15-20k for a weeks worth of points. That’s $780k-$1.04m per unit to develop a resort. That’s where the big bucks are. Money in the maintenance fee budget is what’s paying for HK. It’s likely that we already pay more than our fair share per 1k points on HK to make up for shortfalls. Nobody is subsidizing anything outside of the owners.


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## tschwa2 (Oct 21, 2020)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> Buy developer points isn’t subsidizing anything related to the upkeep of the resort. That’s paying for the construction of resorts and sales staff salaries/commission and other overhead. Assume you pay $15-20k for a weeks worth of points. That’s $780k-$1.04m per unit to develop a resort. That’s where the big bucks are. Money in the maintenance fee budget is what’s paying for HK. It’s likely that we already pay more than our fair share per 1k points on HK to make up for shortfalls. Nobody is subsidizing anything outside of the owners.


I couldn't find anything in writing from Wyndham in US but this is from a pdf Developer Benefits Programs- terms of Use from the Wyndham Asian Pacific Program.

"The Developer has provided a number of benefits which may be complimentary to the benefits of Club Ownership but are separate and distinct (Developer Benefits). Developer Benefits are provided at the complete discretion of the Developer, which may revoke, modify or add Developer Benefits at any time in its absolute discretion without prior notice and has established these terms of use." 

“Developer Benefits” means benefits offered by or through the Developer separate and distinct from Club Ownership. 

VIP benefits like unlimited hk credits, and upgrades and reduced points during discount periods, etc is supposed to be paid by the developer. There should be some sort of line item in the various budgets to account for VIP benefits used at any specific resort.


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## kaljor (Oct 21, 2020)

Following up on this Housekeeping change, do we know when Wyndham will make the transition and how it will be done?

I have less than 70k points left this year and I plan to deposit them to next year if nothing comes up between now and then, which probably won’t.  HK credits used to move with the points and I know that they won’t now, but how will they deal with HK credits that are attached to the three reservations I already have for next year?

If they haven’t specified yet then all we can do is speculate.  Also, does anyone here believe that they will give a partial credit for points above a multiple of 70k?  My guess is no.


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 21, 2020)

My best guess is that they will just give you the allotted housekeeping tokens along with your annual guest certs and reservation transactions once the new year hits regardless of what your current 2021 balance is from banking or borrowing.


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## paxsarah (Oct 22, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> My best guess is that they will just give you the allotted housekeeping tokens along with your annual guest certs and reservation transactions once the new year hits regardless of what your current 2021 balance is from banking or borrowing.


Housekeeping credits (both old and new) belong to the use year and should be issued when points are issued. Guest certificates and reservation transactions belong to the calendar year. It's hard to predict how they'll handle the transition for those of us who will be using the new housekeeping system, but there's no reason to assume that they'll be issued with the calendar year allotments.


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## Richelle (Oct 22, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Its a loophole that many VIP owners are exploiting.  The rentals using resale points has been abused like cancel and rebook was It has become a benefit to some and sales has promoted it as a benefit to pay maintenance fees.



You still did not answer my question.


kaljor said:


> Following up on this Housekeeping change, do we know when Wyndham will make the transition and how it will be done?
> 
> I have less than 70k points left this year and I plan to deposit them to next year if nothing comes up between now and then, which probably won’t.  HK credits used to move with the points and I know that they won’t now, but how will they deal with HK credits that are attached to the three reservations I already have for next year?
> 
> If they haven’t specified yet then all we can do is speculate.  Also, does anyone here believe that they will give a partial credit for points above a multiple of 70k?  My guess is no.



No partial credit.  The housekeeping credits pay for the housekeeping, not the points.  So if they give partial credit, the resort will only get a partial amount of money to clean the room.  If your use year ends December 31st, you can deposit them now.  If something comes up between now and then, you can


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## Richelle (Oct 22, 2020)

FYI, I did confirm they round down.  So if you have 105,000 points, you still only get one credit.  You don't get the second credit until you hit 140,000 points.


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## paxsarah (Oct 22, 2020)

Richelle said:


> FYI, I did confirm they round down.  So if you have 105,000 points, you still only get one credit.  You don't get the second credit until you hit 140,000 points.


They are really disincentivizing small ownership along with biennial-only ownership. Small owners are already hit with the minimum program fee and now will pay another large chunk if they want to eke two trips out of their points. I wonder how busy Ovations is going to get in the next 6-12 months. I continue to wonder if some of the incentive structures it creates are intentional or not.


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## CCdad (Oct 22, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> They are really disincentivizing small ownership along with biennial-only ownership. Small owners are already hit with the minimum program fee and now will pay another large chunk if they want to eke two trips out of their points. I wonder how busy Ovations is going to get in the next 6-12 months. I continue to wonder if some of the incentive structures it creates are intentional or not.



I think Ovations Limited Editions (3 years of MF free points) may have to be much more selective in taking back the most desirable deeds that can be re-sold. 

Due to the extended pandemic, there are a lot of points are being sold, given away or given back to Wyndham. Some due to an owner’s reluctance to travel and some due to the loss of a job.


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## Richelle (Oct 22, 2020)

CCdad said:


> I think Ovations Limited Editions (3 years of MF free points) may have to be much more selective in taking back the most desirable deeds that can be re-sold.
> 
> Due to the extended pandemic, there are a lot of points are being sold, given away or given back to Wyndham. Some due to an owner’s reluctance to travel and some due to the loss of a job.


I believe you may be right that they may start rejecting contracts this year.  Before it was rare because they could always throw one of those miserable contracts into the CWA trust and sell them as CWA points.  I think they will have more people trying to relinquish their contracts this year.  I'm betting the biannuals will be easier to get rid of because they won't have to give out three years worth of points.  They can always combine it with another biannual and re-deed it as an annual and sell it.


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## tschwa2 (Oct 22, 2020)

According to someone in one of the Wyndham facebook groups, currently you can't get the 3 years of free points unless you are giving up all of your contracts (not just selective ones) even if you are only offered the free points for some contracts, you have to give back the others with no compensation in order to get the points from the eligible ones.  

Has anyone here confirmed that to be the case.  Limited Edition -only if relinquishing all contracts.
Also if you relinquish everything are they requiring you to sign something saying you won't purchase resale or retail for x number of years?


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## paxsarah (Oct 22, 2020)

Richelle said:


> I'm betting the biannuals will be easier to get rid of because they won't have to give out three years worth of points.


I always thought Wyndham had the ability to separate the Ovation eligibility from the Limited Edition eligibility. Wouldn't they be able to say even to an annual owner, yes, we'll take your contract back via Ovation, but no, we aren't able to offer free points usage via Limited Edition? Then the owner would have to decide if that's a deal they're willing to take.


tschwa2 said:


> According to someone in one of the Wyndham facebook groups, currently you can't get the 3 years of free points unless you are giving up all of your contracts (not just selective ones) even if you are only offered the free points for some contracts, you have to give back the others with no compensation in order to get the points from the eligible ones.


That has always been the understanding here, as well. At the end of Limited Edition you're no longer a Wyndham owner.


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## Richelle (Oct 22, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> I always thought Wyndham had the ability to separate the Ovation eligibility from the Limited Edition eligibility. Wouldn't they be able to say even to an annual owner, yes, we'll take your contract back via Ovation, but no, we aren't able to offer free points usage via Limited Edition? Then the owner would have to decide if that's a deal they're willing to take.



That's how I understand it and how they have been doing it.  Biannual contracts and contracts not purchased from Wyndham are not eligible for Limited Edition.  I don't see why they wouldn't be able to tell an annual owner no, to limited Edition.  It does say inventory must be eligible.  So I assume there are some cases where it is not.


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## scootr5 (Oct 22, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> They are really disincentivizing small ownership along with biennial-only ownership. Small owners are already hit with the minimum program fee and now will pay another large chunk if they want to eke two trips out of their points. I wonder how busy Ovations is going to get in the next 6-12 months. I continue to wonder if some of the incentive structures it creates are intentional or not.



I agree. I thinks it's ridiculous that the HK credits are not following the points if they are deposited. That does not make any sense.


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 22, 2020)

scootr5 said:


> I agree. I thinks it's ridiculous that the HK credits are not following the points if they are deposited. That does not make any sense.



That's why I thought it would become a calendar year allotment like reservation transactions and guest certificates.


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## paxsarah (Oct 22, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> That's why I thought it would become a calendar year allotment like reservation transactions and guest certificates.


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## Roger830 (Oct 22, 2020)

scootr5 said:


> I agree. I thinks it's ridiculous that the HK credits are not following the points if they are deposited. That does not make any sense.



According to the email, they're looking out for your best interests by not confusing you. 

"The launch of the new VIP by Wyndham program is fast approaching and we couldn’t be more excited about the benefits we have to offer owners. As part of the new program, a simplified housekeeping benefit will be introduced. *You won’t have to worry* about your length of stay or size of suite. You simply need one Housekeeping Credit plus your points per reservation"


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## paxsarah (Oct 22, 2020)

It would not be unreasonable for Wyndham to optionally allow an owner to choose to deposit one or more housekeeping credits at the time of a point deposit. Say, up to 1 per 70k points deposited. So if I was depositing 150k points forward, I could choose to deposit 0, 1, or 2 HK credits along with them (but not more, even if I had some).

I don’t think they’ll do it, but that’s how I would structure it.


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## dgalati (Oct 22, 2020)

Richelle said:


> FYI, I did confirm they round down.  So if you have 105,000 points, you still only get one credit.  You don't get the second credit until you hit 140,000 points.


This dosen't suprise me. So a 126000 point ownership gets the same as a 70000 point ownership? While a VIP gets unlimited HK's!  Who is benefiting from this the most? We all know the club can change rules as they decide as necessary.


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## Richelle (Oct 22, 2020)

dgalati said:


> This dosen't suprise me. So a 126000 point ownership gets the same as a 70000 point ownership? While a VIP gets unlimited HK's! Who is benefiting from this the most? We all know the club can change rules as they decide as necessary.



Why does it bother you? Don’t you rent from VIPs for half the cost of owning? Why do you care who is benefiting the most?


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 22, 2020)

So how do they plan on allocating 2021 housekeeping credits if you already borrowed in 2020? I have 243,000 unused points and 145 unused housekeeping credit left of 502,000 points and 502 housekeeping credits for 2021.


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## dgalati (Oct 22, 2020)

Richelle said:


> Why does it bother you? Don’t you rent from VIPs for half the cost of owning? Why do you care who is benefiting the most?


I do own also. Its principle to me. Why not make it fair to all owners? A deeded ownership should be equal across the board for developer or resale as Worldmark is. Wyndham subsidizes the VIP program off of the non VIP owner compared to Worldmark were its a even playing field. No proof JMHO


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## dgalati (Oct 22, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> So how do they plan on allocating 2021 housekeeping credits if you already borrowed in 2020? I have 243,000 unused points and 145 unused housekeeping credit left of 502,000 points and 502 housekeeping credits for 2021.


Dont be suprised if they will send you a bill. Like they tried to do when I had a 600k negative balance last year. $12/1000 was all they were asking. LOL


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## BDMX2 (Oct 22, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> So how do they plan on allocating 2021 housekeeping credits if you already borrowed in 2020? I have 243,000 unused points and 145 unused housekeeping credit left of 502,000 points and 502 housekeeping credits for 2021.


I'm interested to see how this all works too.  I paid for a few HK credits in order to deposit to 2021.  Will they reimburse me (I'm not going to hold my breath) or will they at least give me HK credits for the balance of points for 2021 including my 2020 deposits?


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## Roger830 (Oct 22, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> So how do they plan on allocating 2021 housekeeping credits if you already borrowed in 2020? I have 243,000 unused points and 145 unused housekeeping credit left of 502,000 points and 502 housekeeping credits for 2021.



The way that I see it, 502 / 70 = 7 credits/reservations.

I you made 7 reservations, then you have no credits left. 
If you made 8 reservations, then you will owe Wyndham $159.


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 22, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> The way that I see it, 502 / 70 = 7 credits/reservations.
> 
> I you made 7 reservations, then you have no credits left.
> If you made 8 reservations, then you will owe Wyndham $159.



Yeah but I made those reservations without knowing they were going to change the system. I have all my leftover points sitting in 2 reservations currently. I guess I will just keep them. They are for Royal Vista and Clearwater so I guess that's not too bad. The cheapskate inside me just doesn't like the idea of spending 39,000 points a night on my Clearwater reservation. The only time in my LIFE that I have spent over $200 on a hotel room was the time I booked a 1 bedroom presidential reserve unit in Clearwater and I made a 3 night reservation right after 4th of July for 117,000 points in a 1 bedroom presidential again. Granted it was the NICEST room I've ever stayed in, but still $220 a night is a lot of money for me for just 1 night lol.


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## Richelle (Oct 22, 2020)

dgalati said:


> I do own also. Its principle to me. Why not make it fair to all owners? A deeded ownership should be equal across the board for developer or resale as Worldmark is. Wyndham subsidizes the VIP program off of the non VIP owner compared to Worldmark were its a even playing field. No proof JMHO



The new system will affect the same people as the current one does. There are some non-VIP who will benefit and some who won’t. That’s the way it is with all changes. Someone wins, and some lose. I bet if Wyndham gave everyone free housekeeping, you’d be complaining about that too. You’d probably use the same argument to. You constantly saying VIP benefits are being subsidized by non-VIP doesn’t make it true. If it bothers you so much, pick up a phone and call. Ask them why they choose to do it this way. You don’t see behind the curtain, so for all you know, you could be getting yourself (and others) worked up for no reason. 

Also, there is one thing you overlooked. People get old. Eventually they die. Some stop traveling long before that. Then you have people who decide to exit for other reasons. As time goes on, the number of people getting free housekeeping will go down. Given that the majority of their ownership base is middle age and up, it stands to reason Wyndham is counting on that. The system wasn’t sustainable as it is. So they stopped offering it. So even if your conspiracy theory was correct, it wouldn’t be subsidizing housekeeping for long. 

We VIPs invested the money into the program because we wanted certain benefits. We paid a fair amount of money for those benefits, even though everyone here screams don’t do it. Had you done the same as I, you would have unlimited housekeeping as well. Part of me knew they would eventually change the housekeeping credit system and the reservation transaction credit system. When you think about it, it’s common sense. Nothing stays the same. So I took a chance and invested the money to go Gold, and hoped they didn’t take away free housekeeping when they decided to change it. I was aware they could. Had they taken it away, I would be very disappointed, but I wouldn’t get mad because I knew the risks. You decided not to take the risk, and that’s ok. However, since you didn’t take the risk, don’t expect the reward. Wyndham is rewarding the people who took the risk and invested their hard earned money with them. 

You have chosen to take the view that they are taking something from you and giving it to me. Nothing I say will change your mind on that because you have chosen to always view Wyndham negatively. So I’m not going to try to convince you anymore, that nothing is being taken from you. It’s up to you if you want to continue to be mad.


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## Roger830 (Oct 22, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Yeah but I made those reservations without knowing they were going to change the system.



It certainly makes you wonder how they can legally retroactively change reservations and then bill you.

It's like an insurance company saying that they paid too many claims this year so they are increasing the premium that you paid in December of last year.

What they're doing shows a great deal of disrespect for the owners. How can they say that they are making it easier for us, then charge $159 to clean a studio?


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## dgalati (Oct 22, 2020)

Richelle said:


> The new system will affect the same people as the current one does. There are some non-VIP who will benefit and some who won’t. That’s the way it is with all changes. Someone wins, and some lose. I bet if Wyndham gave everyone free housekeeping, you’d be complaining about that too. You’d probably use the same argument to. You constantly saying VIP benefits are being subsidized by non-VIP doesn’t make it true. If it bothers you so much, pick up a phone and call. Ask them why they choose to do it this way. You don’t see behind the curtain, so for all you know, you could be getting yourself (and others) worked up for no reason.
> 
> Also, there is one thing you overlooked. People get old. Eventually they die. Some stop traveling long before that. Then you have people who decide to exit for other reasons. As time goes on, the number of people getting free housekeeping will go down. Given that the majority of their ownership base is middle age and up, it stands to reason Wyndham is counting on that. The system wasn’t sustainable as it is. So they stopped offering it. So even if your conspiracy theory was correct, it wouldn’t be subsidizing housekeeping for long.
> 
> ...


Richelle I always respect your view and appreciate your knowledge about buying into VIP at the lowest cost possible. The percieved value of buying VIP just never made sense for my traveling needs. Nothing has been taken from me as I have always bought resale for less then closing costs. I also will  rent from a VIP owner for less then my ownership costs when available. Its the non VIP developer bought owners that are taking it on the chin. I know how to navigate the shark infested waters just trying to help the ones that dont. The whole timeshare industry is shark infested from start to finish. I know  you can't believe otherwise . For the educated buyer like me and you the system works great but 9-10 buyers were duped into buying a 25k ownership that they could of paid less then $100 for. These retail non VIP owners also subsidized the free HK's and 50% discounts. IMHO no proof but we all know free is paid for by someone.


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## Rolltydr (Oct 22, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Richelle I always respect your view and appreciate your knowledge about buying into VIP at the lowest cost possible. The percieved value of buying VIP just never made sense for my traveling needs. Nothing has been taken from me as I have always bought resale for less then closing costs. I also will  rent from a VIP owner for less then my ownership costs when available. Its the non VIP developer bought owners that are taking it on the chin. I know how to navigate the shark infested waters just trying to help the ones that dont. The whole timeshare industry is shark infested from start to finish. I know  you can't believe otherwise . For the educated buyer like me and you the system works great but 9-10 buyers were duped into buying a 25k ownership that they could of paid less then $100 for. These retail non VIP owners also subsidized the free HK's and 50% discounts. IMHO no proof but we all know free is paid for by someone.


In one breath, you say VIP owners pay tens of thousands of dollars in developer prices that can’t be justified. In the next breath, you say that resell owners that pay almost nothing for their timeshares are subsidizing the VIP benefits. You’re going to have to pay one hell of a lot of HK fees before you subsidize anything I’ve already purchased as a benefit!


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## paxsarah (Oct 22, 2020)

Rolltydr said:


> In the next breath, you say that resell owners that pay almost nothing for their timeshares are subsidizing the VIP benefits.


He said retail, not resale.


dgalati said:


> These retail non VIP owners also subsidized the free HK's and 50% discounts.


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## Richelle (Oct 23, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Richelle I always respect your view and appreciate your knowledge about buying into VIP at the lowest cost possible. The percieved value of buying VIP just never made sense for my traveling needs. Nothing has been taken from me as I have always bought resale for less then closing costs. I also will rent from a VIP owner for less then my ownership costs when available. Its the non VIP developer bought owners that are taking it on the chin. I know how to navigate the shark infested waters just trying to help the ones that dont. The whole timeshare industry is shark infested from start to finish. I know you can't believe otherwise . For the educated buyer like me and you the system works great but 9-10 buyers were duped into buying a 25k ownership that they could of paid less then $100 for. These retail non VIP owners also subsidized the free HK's and 50% discounts. IMHO no proof but we all know free is paid for by someone.



If it bothers you that much, then do something about it. I’m not trying to be a jerk by saying that. I’m actually telling you, go do something about if it means that much to you. HitchHiker71 and I both want to help all owners. Why else do you think we spend 100’s of hours on the Facebook groups and here answering questions? When the new website launched, we could have just complained about it and done nothing but we didn’t. HitchHiker71 sent an email to someone whose name eludes me at the moment. That person got us in touch with the people we needed to talk to, to start getting things fixed. We did all this because we care. We care enough to actually do something beyond talking about it on social media. You are constantly saying the same things, so it obviously bothers you. So go do something about it. Call someone. Get answers. Anything. 


I don’t want to minimize all the help Tuggers here give. When the site launched, many complained, but there were many who were willing to do the work to help figure out the issues. They went above and beyond. Many answer the same questions over and over like I do. Many have a lot of helpful advice and are happy to share their experiences. This site is very helpful to timeshare owners. 

The comment about housekeeping credits subsidizing free housekeeping for VIPs was initially stated in a way that it was fact, and not a theory. That’s why I was asking for proof. Someone who is new to all this, may not realize you’re sharing a theory and not fact. Maybe it’s all my time on the Facebook group that makes me feel like people will believe just about anything you tell them if it makes even a monochrome of sense. So I take issue with some of the things you said. Not the theory so much as to how it was stated. Had you said “I think they are using housekeeping credits to subsidize free housekeeping for VIPs”, I would have left it alone, or maybe would have just mentioned that the program fee would be a better place to hide subsidies. I wouldn’t have pushed for proof. Most people would have said “I think”. You said “They are”. Make sense now? I do respect you opinion. Especially the renting part. Timeshare don’t work for everyone. Renting can work if you have someone you can trust and your plans don’t change. Also, I think we both share the same opinion of the sales side of the house. I only ask that you consider that a newbie might be reading what you’re writing and not understand where you are coming from. They might misunderstand what you’re saying. I try to do keep in mind who might be reading my comments. Don’t always succeed but I think I do in most cases.


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## Sandi Bo (Oct 23, 2020)

So... I remember being told that the sales department had to reimburse someone for the discounts and upgrades. When I read stuff like non-VIP owners are subsidizing VIP owners - I don't believe it.  The VIP program is a selling tool and it makes sense to me that sales would need to help pay for it.  Again, guessing, probably a line item somewhere on someone's balance sheet.


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## tschwa2 (Oct 23, 2020)

Sandi Bo said:


> So... I remember being told that the sales department had to reimburse someone for the discounts and upgrades. When I read stuff like non-VIP owners are subsidizing VIP owners - I don't believe it.  The VIP program is a selling tool and it makes sense to me that sales would need to help pay for it.  Again, guessing, probably a line item somewhere on someone's balance sheet.


I think that the HK fee structure is such that those without limited HK credits and who make over their limit of HK credits (multiple short stays) are subsidizing those with unlimited.    I don't think they are completely subsidizing it, just that they are being charged more than their cost for the extra cleaning- just throwing out a number say 15-20% per time.   The way to not overpay is to not go over their allotted including HK.  It also may not directly go as a subsidy, it just goes as extra income to Wyndham who may (or may not) use that toward any VIP benefits that they reimburse the various HOA's for.


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## Jan M. (Oct 24, 2020)

I'm sure Ron P. would be able to explain this better and in more detail if he happened to read this thread.

Pete Hernandez used to do a good job of explaining the annual reports at the owner's meetings. You have to look at the Wyndham annual report and a couple of the individual resort annual reports plus know something about what you're looking at to understand them.

Wyndham bears the expense of the VIP benefits. Not the resorts, therefore not the owners at the resorts.

Wyndham changing and raising the housekeeping credit structure and costs is no different than the steady decreases to the VIP benefits over the years we've owned. Of the 18 years we've owned, 17 of them as VIP. Seeing resale and non VIP owners getting 25-50% point discounts this year is a slap in the face to every single owner who paid dearly to be VIP. The VIP owners have a lot more experience with sucking it up when Wyndham changes things.


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## Roger830 (Oct 25, 2020)

Jan M. said:


> Wyndham changing and raising the housekeeping credit structure and costs is no different than the steady decreases to the VIP benefits over the years we've owned. Of the 18 years we've owned, 17 of them as VIP. Seeing resale and* non VIP owners getting 25-50% point discounts this year is a slap in the face *to every single owner who paid dearly to be VIP. The VIP owners have a lot more experience with sucking it up when Wyndham changes things.



Those 20-50% discounts are for units that nobody wants to book. That's the way that the vip discount was suppose to function. Not book prime weeks then cancel and rebook at a discount.

Let me be clear. I can work around the housekeeping change. I'm ok with a reasonable approach to them adjusting the cost structure.

What I don't like is Wyndham telling members that they are making it simpler for them, then retroactively increase the housekeeping booking cost. Hotels or airlines don't do that.
Also $159 to clean a studio or  a one bedroom is much  too high.

I often wondered how they could justify one night stays because of the cleaning costs. So then they make it worse by allowing two night stays at 10 months.


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## northovr (Oct 25, 2020)

Well I got my answer I will take advantage of this new rule Book 3 and 4 bedrooms with short stays out of season or longs stays out of season  and book my week vacations with II.  This new housekeeping rule will make studio booking unfriendly

Good Morning Mr. Northover,

Thank you for contacting Club Wyndham Owner Care.  I apologize for the delay in our response. We appreciate you taking the time to reach out to us.
I understand from your email you inquiring about if housekeeping credits will still be needed for future deposits into II. Once the new housekeeping program starts with the VIP by Club Wyndham on November 12, 2020 housekeeping points will no longer be needed for exchanges. Only the points will be needed for your future II deposits.   

Thank you so much for your patience and if we can be of anymore assistance don’t hesitate to email us or contact us at 1-800-251-8736 Monday-Friday 8am-8pm and Saturday-Sunday 9am-6pm, EST.

James D.

Owner Care Specialist Club Wyndham


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## Richelle (Oct 25, 2020)

Jan M. said:


> Seeing resale and non VIP owners getting 25-50% point discounts this year is a slap in the face to every single owner who paid dearly to be VIP. The VIP owners have a lot more experience with sucking it up when Wyndham changes things.



I can understand why you feel that way. The way I look at it is, those deals have a lot of strings attached. On top to specific travel dates, sometimes it’s only during certain days of the week, certain unit types, etc. VIP’s don’t have those string attached other then the 60 days. Also, sometimes the discounts are for reservations further out then 60 days out. We can benefit from that as well and get a discount outside the 60 day window. Granted, many of the discounts are less then the 50% Platinum gets, but if inventory is scarce after 60 days, it does not matter because they might not get the 50% anyway. 25% discount is better then no discount. Just some things  to consider that might soften that slap in the face.


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## troy12n (Oct 25, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> What I don't like is Wyndham telling members that they are making it simpler for them, then retroactively increase the housekeeping booking cost. Hotels or airlines don't do that.



Well, airlines kind of DID start doing that about 10-15 years ago when they started charging for luggage... they have been nickel and diming people for years. 
- charging for baggage
- eliminating means on non-international flights
- some airlines charging for carry-on (not just the discount airlines, United does this too...)
- charging for in-flight beverage/snack
- charging for seat assignment

I'm sure I could go on, but the airlines HAVE been doing this sort of nonsense for years



> Also $159 to clean a studio or  a one bedroom is much  too high.



I'm not disputing that, glad I dont have to pay it...



> I often wondered how they could justify one night stays because of the cleaning costs. So then they make it worse by allowing two night stays at 10 months.



I'm not sure what you mean by the second part of that statement


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## Roger830 (Oct 25, 2020)

troy12n said:


> Well, airlines kind of DID start doing that about 10-15 years ago when they started charging for luggage... they have been nickel and diming people for years.
> I'm not disputing that, glad I dont have to pay it...
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by the second part of that statement



I don't know if airlines added extra fees after a booking was made, but the charge for baggage never affected us because we always use carry-on.

As to the second part referring to Wyndham making things worse by allowing two day bookings at 10 months after allowing one night stays is as follows:

Timeshares are usually apartments that cost more to clean then hotel/motel rooms.
Originally they required a one week booking with one cleaning.
Wyndham used to allow a 3 or 4 night stay, so if two 3 night stays were booked, the 1 stranded night could be booked.
By allowing 2 night bookings at 10 months, there could be three 2 night and one 1 night stays in one week thus 4 cleanings.
It should be no surprise to anyone that costs must have increased to an unsustainable level.

Wyndham's solution to charge $159 to clean a studio to make up these costs isn't a fair solution.


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## Eric B (Oct 25, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> .....
> 
> Wyndham's solution to charge $159 to clean a studio to make up these costs isn't a fair solution.



Reasonable minds will very likely disagree on the fairness or unfairness of any pricing decision.  In my view, the cost for cleaning a TS likely includes both a fixed cost component for a visit to an individual unit and a variable cost that reflects the size and complexity of the unit.  They could no doubt set up a housekeeping cost scheme that would better reflect the actual costs, as has been done on the WorldMark side of things, but the housekeeping credit side of things is much different on that side, too.  To me, if I were given the choice of expending a housekeeping credit that is worth $159 used elsewhere on a one night stay in a studio would make as little sense (or cents, if you will) as spending the $159 on an extra one to stay there.  My guess is that Wyndham's desired outcome is to reduce the number of single or low night stays in studios, leaving the option available to those that actually want to do that instead of going to a hotel for near the same cost or less.  It may be that this is a reflection of the predominance of the fixed cost per unit cleaned; I've got no idea how the costs vary.  I would interpret the higher perceived cost as being an intentional imposition to drive down demand rather than it being unfair - that's how pricing works in a marketplace.  If the net result winds up being that it messes up their business line due to the decreased demand or some externality such as customer complaints driving away additional sales, they might react and change the pricing scheme to correct the problem.  If the net result winds up being a lower usage of low night stays in studios, that may well line up with their desired outcome.


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## dgalati (Oct 25, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> Those 20-50% discounts are for units that nobody wants to book. That's the way that the vip discount was suppose to function. Not book prime weeks then cancel and rebook at a discount.
> 
> Let me be clear. I can work around the housekeeping change. I'm ok with a reasonable approach to them adjusting the cost structure.
> 
> ...


Let me ask who pays for the free HK's. It has to cost something to clean all those rentals with "free" HK'S?


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## paxsarah (Oct 25, 2020)

Jan M. said:


> Seeing resale and non VIP owners getting 25-50% point discounts this year is a slap in the face to every single owner who paid dearly to be VIP.


To be fair, Wyndham did this for years. I have a couple of saved files of resort specials from the old website in 2011 and 2012 where the discounts ranged from 10% to 40%. Then there were a few years where specials disappeared, but then in the last couple of years they returned. I certainly wouldn't fault Wyndham for their choices in offering specials to non-VIP owners during a pandemic where the travel industry has been upended and they simply want to fill their units. The more owners they can convince to use their points in the short term, the less of a mess it's going to be when everyone suddenly wants to book something with their deposited points in the mid-long term.


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## CO skier (Oct 25, 2020)

Richelle said:


> You’ll receive 1 Housekeeping Credit per 70,000 points annually at the start of your Use Year.



This is generous compared to WorldMark.  Housekeeping “tokens” are awarded for each 10,000 credits owned.  10,000 credits is enough for a red season week in an “original” 2 bedroom units, so it is roughly equivalent to 154,000 points in Club Wyndham, which would be awarded 2 HK per use year.


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## Richelle (Oct 25, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> Also $159 to clean a studio or a one bedroom is much too high.



I don’t disagree that it’s a high cost for housekeeping in a studio, but the number they came up with was an average of the costs to clean the rooms. For easy numbers, if a studio cost $10 to clean, a 1 bedroom cost $20, and a 3 bedroom $30, the average cost to clean those is $20. That’s what they charge for all sizes. True, it doesn’t cost $20 to clean the studio, but it also cost more then $20 to clean the 2 bedroom. So for people booking 1 bedrooms and bigger, they are getting a decent deal. As mentioned multiple times, people are going to start going for the bigger rooms so they don’t have to spend $159 to clean a studio. That means, the studios are what is left in the VIP discount window. VIPs with free housekeeping that are looking to book something last minute might only have studios to choose from. Which is cheaper to clean. So it’s more cost effective to encourage non-VIPs to book the bigger rooms because they pay housekeeping. VIPs with free housekeeping are left with studios which are cheaper to clean.


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## Jan M. (Oct 25, 2020)

We all know Wyndham can and does change things to benefit their profits. That's a given in the business world. We also know that they're first and foremost focused on making the changes to benefit sales and secondly spinning it to make the changes seem of some benefit to the owners. Not that some part of the change isn't of benefit to the owners but often not nearly as much as they spin it to be. As Richelle said Wyndham saw the need of an update/overhaul to the housekeeping credits.

As with other changes we've seen with Wyndham you have to wonder who came up with this one and how they convinced the decision makers to go with their idea. It makes absolutely no sense that a reservation in everything from the smallest studios to the largest 4 bedroom presidentials will all now use 1 housekeeping credit. No one with working brain cells would ever think it costs the same to clean every size unit. This severely penalizes the owners who can use the studios and one bedroom units. The only way this makes sense to me is if they're trying encourage owners to use more points because we know that benefits sales. And also getting owners to use all the points they've already moved forward and will continue to move forward in 2021 That's a major concern for Wyndham and it will continue to be a major concern for the next couple of years it will take to clear the backlog.

Another thing that bothers me about this change is one of the things that sold most of us who bought under Fairfield and Wyndham was the flexibility of the system. Wyndham is once again chisling away at that flexibility with the seeming purpose of trying to make owners use more points.

The discounts at resorts you wouldn't normally see discounts at began right after Wyndham announced the Privileges program which was well before Covid. They were using it as sales a tool to get existing owners to level up and entice new owners to buy into VIP before Privileges started. From what we've seen here on TUG and on the Facebook groups Wyndham giving everyone a taste of the VIP discounts before Privileges rolled out didn't benefit sales nearly as much as they hoped it would. Then came Covid and like many other big businesses Wyndham is struggling with trying to figure out how to mitigate the fallout from it.

Many owners, even existing VIP owners, were using the earlier than 60 days discount at the many resorts Wyndham offered. Bonnet Creek at a 35% discount for Thanksgiving week wasn't the leftover junk no one else wanted. Bonnet creek has no slow season; what they have is a slightly less busy times to insanely busy times. One of the times we were there in the past 12 months, not even a holiday weekend, they had 800+ check ins on Saturday and another 600+ on Sunday in the approximately 1049 units at Bonnet Creek.

There were and are some great opportunities for those who are able to take advantage of them. While some owners sneer at the leftover junk available at 60 days or the discounted resorts available to all owners, other owners make excellent use of them. There's plenty of proof of that in the various threads.


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## Roger830 (Oct 26, 2020)

Richelle said:


> I don’t disagree that it’s a high cost for housekeeping in a studio, but the number they came up with was an average of the costs to clean the rooms. For easy numbers, if a studio cost $10 to clean, a 1 bedroom cost $20, and a 3 bedroom $30, the average cost to clean those is $20.



I see no logical reason why there has to be one cost. The unit types are programmed into the system. There should be a different cost for each unit type.


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## Richelle (Oct 26, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> I see no logical reason why there has to be one cost. The unit types are programmed into the system. There should be a different cost for each unit type.



Simplicity. That’s the logical reason. I’ve seen people complain about the current system being to complicated. To us here, who are more informed and understand the system better, it’s not complicated. However, you forget that not everyone is as savvy. People were complaining that it made it difficult to plan. I saw it first hand on the Facebook groups. So they went with a simplified method. One credit, one reservation. One flat fee. 

No method works for everyone in every situation. But for the majority of people, it’s either not a huge difference, or they come out ahead of the current system. Right now a one bedroom cost 63 credits to clean. At today’s rate $2.25 a credit, that’s $141.75. That’s a $17.25 increase. That doesn’t exactly break the bank. A two bedroom is currently 77 credits. At today’s rate of $2.25 per credit, that’s $173.25. They are coming out ahead by $14.25. Three and four bedrooms are coming out even further ahead. People who spend 8 days or more in a one bedroom or bigger, they are coming out even further ahead. 

Right now, with the current system, people who do short stays, burn through credits faster. The same will happen with the new system. So really, the people who will be affected the most are people who book studio and hotel rooms. Not every resort has studio and hotel rooms. The ones that do are usually the high point resorts like Midtown, Panama City, Austin, Rio Mar, etc.


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## Richelle (Oct 26, 2020)

Jan M. said:


> As with other changes we've seen with Wyndham you have to wonder who came up with this one and how they convinced the decision makers to go with their idea. It makes absolutely no sense that a reservation in everything from the smallest studios to the largest 4 bedroom presidentials will all now use 1 housekeeping credit. No one with working brain cells would ever think it costs the same to clean every size unit. This severely penalizes the owners who can use the studios and one bedroom units. The only way this makes sense to me is if they're trying encourage owners to use more points because we know that benefits sales. And also getting owners to use all the points they've already moved forward and will continue to move forward in 2021 That's a major concern for Wyndham and it will continue to be a major concern for the next couple of years it will take to clear the backlog.



As stated earlier, $159 is the average price to clean a unit.  They are not saying that it's the same cost for all the units.  It's the average cost.  To keep it simplified, they used one credit per reservation or one flat fee.  Since owners will be booking bigger rooms, the studios and one-bedrooms will be the last ones left.  VIPs who are booking in the discount window, and get free HK , will be booking more of those because that's the only option they have.  Studios and one-bedrooms are cheaper to clean.  So forcing VIPs to book the smaller rooms will save money in housekeeping costs.  That is another bonus for them.


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## Roger830 (Oct 26, 2020)

Richelle said:


> As stated earlier, $159 is the average price to clean a unit.



I'm sure that there is a huge difference between the price that Wyndham charges for housekeeping credits and their actual cost to clean units.
There's no way that they could offer short stays if it cost $159 to clean a unit. When we first purchased a one bedroom at Hollywood Sands in 2000 our mf was less than $400 and that included cleaning.

If Wyndham paid $20 per hour for a cleaning person, they could spend about 8 hours cleaning one unit. 

It's not complicated to have multiple point and dollar costs. We have this device called a computer that does all of the calculations.


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## paxsarah (Oct 26, 2020)

Richelle said:


> So it’s more cost effective to encourage non-VIPs to book the bigger rooms because they pay housekeeping [receive a limited number of free housekeeping tokens]. VIPs with free [unlimited] housekeeping are left with studios which are cheaper to clean.



Although, generally the reason a non-VIP would book a larger room is so we don't go beyond our free housekeeping. For instance, say I want to take a long weekend with my in-laws. I could book a 1BR and a 2BR, using two tokens, or I could simply try to book a 3BR, using a single token. But the motivation there is to _not pay_ the $159 at all. Though there are probably some who, faced with a lack of free housekeeping tokens, would book a bigger unit while paying the $159 simply to "get their money's worth," if I'm forced to pay the $159 I'll simply book the unit I need, with my decision likely being based more on the points I have remaining than the HK fee.

Or, I would simply deposit my points to RCI which will no longer require housekeeping, which would actually be a good short to mid-term strategy for Wyndham during the Covid glut of points because it makes our (in)ability to find a unit not Wyndham's problem anymore.


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## Eric B (Oct 26, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> ...
> If Wyndham paid $20 per hour for a cleaning person, they could spend about 8 hours cleaning one unit.
> 
> ...



I’ve done a fair amount of costing things in contracts and my experience has been that it’s never as simple as multiplying the wage by a number of hours to get a cost.  At the very least, the employer has to pay an additional 6.2% OASDI (social security) and 0.8% for Medicare.  Other things that get wound into the labor rate are insurance, overhead to cover facilities such as store rooms, locker rooms, etc., and indirect costs for management and supervision.  While they’re likely fairly minor costs, there are also consumables like cleaning products and toilet paper, but those can add up.  Also, I prefer to stay in a room where the sheets, towels, etc., have been replaced with clean ones, so there’s the cost of laundering all that.


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## troy12n (Oct 26, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> Or, I would simply deposit my points to RCI which will no longer require housekeeping, which would actually be a good short to mid-term strategy for Wyndham during the Covid glut of points because it makes our (in)ability to find a unit not Wyndham's problem anymore.



Yeah, but using RCI you have to pay the exchange fee, which indeed cost more out of pocket... so you don't come out ahead, but quite the contrary. There seems to be no magic bullet for non-VIP owners to get out of this...

Glad i'm VIP because it doesn't matter to me.


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## Richelle (Oct 26, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> Although, generally the reason a non-VIP would book a larger room is so we don't go beyond our free housekeeping. For instance, say I want to take a long weekend with my in-laws. I could book a 1BR and a 2BR, using two tokens, or I could simply try to book a 3BR, using a single token. But the motivation there is to _not pay_ the $159 at all. Though there are probably some who, faced with a lack of free housekeeping tokens, would book a bigger unit while paying the $159 simply to "get their money's worth," if I'm forced to pay the $159 I'll simply book the unit I need, with my decision likely being based more on the points I have remaining than the HK fee.
> 
> Or, I would simply deposit my points to RCI which will no longer require housekeeping, which would actually be a good short to mid-term strategy for Wyndham during the Covid glut of points because it makes our (in)ability to find a unit not Wyndham's problem anymore.



Just because they no longer require housekeeping credits to deposit points, doesn’t mean you won’t be paying housekeeping at the resort you’re booking at RCI. The housekeeping has to be paid somehow. I suspect there will be more out of pocket housekeeping on the RCI side then there is today.


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## Richelle (Oct 26, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> I'm sure that there is a huge difference between the price that Wyndham charges for housekeeping credits and their actual cost to clean units.
> There's no way that they could offer short stays if it cost $159 to clean a unit. When we first purchased a one bedroom at Hollywood Sands in 2000 our mf was less than $400 and that included cleaning.
> 
> If Wyndham paid $20 per hour for a cleaning person, they could spend about 8 hours cleaning one unit.
> ...



As @Eric B said, there are costs outside the standard wage that gets wrapped into that cost. The cost to employ someone is not cheap. They may get paid $20 an hour, but the employer maybe paying $30 an hour when you factor in the taxes, insurance, etc. in top for their wage. Then you factor in the cost of cleaning supplies and equipment. I will say again, it’s the average cost to clean the units. If it bothers you that much, call Wyndham and ask why they did it that way. Leave feedback telling them you disagree with the way the system is set up. 

You cannot compare a small resort system to a massive one like Wyndham. You also cannot use numbers from 20 years ago. The cost of the cleaning 20 years ago is less then what it is today. What are they today and does it still include cleaning? If that resort is even still around, I assume it still includes cleaning because the smaller systems do it that way. Compare apples to apples. Marriott is closer to the number of owners then your your example from 20 years ago. They are also closer to the number of units. Still, they have less of both then Wyndham.


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## rapmarks (Oct 26, 2020)

I own a udi at Christmas Mountain.  650 square feet, one bathroom, two bedrooms cleaning fee per reservation is $138.  The Timbers are bigger, and have two bathrooms and a screened porch to clean and they cleaning fee is $10 less. Go figure!

also, for cottages if you request clean linens during the week, $38.10 charged to your account.


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## paxsarah (Oct 26, 2020)

troy12n said:


> Yeah, but using RCI you have to pay the exchange fee, which indeed cost more out of pocket... so you don't come out ahead, but quite the contrary. There seems to be no magic bullet for non-VIP owners to get out of this...



The magic bullet is actually not to take solely short stays. I never paid housekeeping under the old system, and as long as I keep with my same pattern of travel (averaging 4-5 night stays in 1-2 bedroom units), I don't expect that I will under the new system. A non-VIP owner with a decent handful of points (say at least 280,000) who takes a variety of types of trips may still only rarely run out of HK. Last year, we took 6 trips of 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1 nights (I didn't plan it that way, but it just worked out!). Under the old system we didn't have to pay for any HK during that use year. Under the new system, we only would have received 5 housekeeping tokens and wouldn't have done the 1-night stay (which was just a stopover driving from MI to GA, and we were only able to do because we had some housekeeping credits left from the old credit pool). The real squeeze is on small owners (say below 140,000) and biennial owners, but will not be a major issue for every non-VIP.

In terms of the exchange fee, there are times when it's still a better value to deposit points to RCI even taking the exchange fee into account. This can be certain Wyndham resorts that have high point costs in our system (Austin comes to mind, and sometimes Bonnet Creek works out equal/cheaper in RCI as well), or high-value resorts outside of Wyndham (e.g. Disney). Now, taking into account the incremental difference between the HK credit and the exchange fee as being less than $100, people may figure that extending their points for two years and having a choice of thousands of resorts is worth that difference.



Richelle said:


> Just because they no longer require housekeeping credits to deposit points, doesn’t mean you won’t be paying housekeeping at the resort you’re booking at RCI. The housekeeping has to be paid somehow. I suspect there will be more out of pocket housekeeping on the RCI side then there is today.



Although we needed to "deposit" housekeeping credits when making an RCI deposit in the old system, those credits never went anywhere. I've never had to pay housekeeping for a Weeks exchange in RCI (though I have paid resort fees). I honestly don't know how housekeeping is paid in RCI, but I assume that in Weeks it's rolled into the cost of the exchange. There's never been any sort of HK token or credit in RCI when coming into RCI Weeks through the Wyndham portal, even when housekeeping was deducted with the deposit on the Wyndham side, so I don't see that changing now. Do TPU RCI members need to pay for housekeeping on a Weeks exchange? I don't know why Wyndham owners suddenly would.


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## troy12n (Oct 26, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> In terms of the exchange fee, there are times when it's still a better value to deposit points to RCI even taking the exchange fee into account. This can be certain Wyndham resorts that have high point costs in our system (Austin comes to mind, and sometimes Bonnet Creek works out equal/cheaper in RCI as well), or high-value resorts outside of Wyndham (e.g. Disney). Now, taking into account the incremental difference between the HK credit and the exchange fee as being less than $100, people may figure that extending their points for two years and having a choice of thousands of resorts is worth that difference.



Oh, I definitely understand that, and know there are times where it's advantageous to use an exchange, I was just commenting specifically about the housekeeping issue. The fact that RCI has so many more locations to choose from


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## harveyhaddixfan (Oct 26, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> Do TPU RCI members need to pay for housekeeping on a Weeks exchange? I don't know why Wyndham owners suddenly would.



Weeks exchanges in RCI never encounter a housekeeping fee. It’s possible that there would be the bogus “resort fee” added by some resorts. RCI Points full week exchanges also don’t encounter HK fees. There are notes on some that some exchanges may have a HK fee if it’s less than 7 nights.


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## stevenh21 (Oct 27, 2020)

I was disappointed when I read about this change. I have been working on a free weeks conversion since June. Will be for 154K points at Wyndham Flagstaff. We have 47 TPUs, another 27 probably to add, an Interval week on deposit and a couple of reservations already made for 2021. Had planned to move the 21 points to 22. We often trade for 2 BRs for the extra room and case family wants to join us. Goal is to get into Oregon or Washington southern coast, possibly  with Worldmark. Those eat up points pretty fast. The 2 HK credits for 2022 would probably handle the 308 K points.


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## Richelle (Oct 28, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> Although we needed to "deposit" housekeeping credits when making an RCI deposit in the old system, those credits never went anywhere. I've never had to pay housekeeping for a Weeks exchange in RCI (though I have paid resort fees). I honestly don't know how housekeeping is paid in RCI, but I assume that in Weeks it's rolled into the cost of the exchange. There's never been any sort of HK token or credit in RCI when coming into RCI Weeks through the Wyndham portal, even when housekeeping was deducted with the deposit on the Wyndham side, so I don't see that changing now. Do TPU RCI members need to pay for housekeeping on a Weeks exchange? I don't know why Wyndham owners suddenly would.



On the Club Wyndham points side, there are some resorts that charge housekeeping fees.  So what are they doing with the maintenance fee money the owners of that resort pay, that is supposed to pay for housekeeping of that unit?

Edit: Those are fees for RCI point reservations.  I do not believe that includes Club Wyndham points.  The fees are the same on the week's side of the house and also says RCI points reservations.  I guess we will see after the change if that changes to something else.


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## harveyhaddixfan (Oct 28, 2020)

Richelle said:


> On the Club Wyndham points side, there are some resorts that charge housekeeping fees. So what are they doing with the maintenance fee money the owners of that resort pay, that is supposed to pay for housekeeping of that unit?



The unit you exchange into, whoever owns the underlying week is paying for the housekeeping. If a resort is charging anything extra for housekeeping or resort fees on a full week, it’s going to 1 of 2 places: back into the resort budget to lower MF for owners or directly to the pocket of the management company. I’ve not seen any resorts in RCI that charge a cleaning fee on a full week stay. Diamond Resorts properties and some others charge a resort fee or parking fee. The week I own at Beachwoods has a line item for “other income” which is presumably the housekeeping fees and resort fees they charge and is approximately 7% of the overall budget.


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## Richelle (Oct 28, 2020)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> The unit you exchange into, whoever owns the underlying week is paying for the housekeeping. If a resort is charging anything extra for housekeeping or resort fees on a full week, it’s going to 1 of 2 places: back into the resort budget to lower MF for owners or directly to the pocket of the management company. I’ve not seen any resorts in RCI that charge a cleaning fee on a full week stay. Diamond Resorts properties and some others charge a resort fee or parking fee. The week I own at Beachwoods has a line item for “other income” which is presumably the housekeeping fees and resort fees they charge and is approximately 7% of the overall budget.



After doing more looking, I have seen a lot of resorts that charge housekeeping.  However, that is for RCI points reservations.  It says nothing for the length of stay and the RCI ID title doesn't say anything about it being 3 days or 5 days.  The example below is from the Coconut Bay resort in Fort Lauderdale.  RCI # 2626.   I do not believe that applies to Wyndham point reservations.  So far I've only looks at Florida resorts.  Haven't branched out more yet.



Housekeeping Fees

"Housekeeping fee for all RCI points reservations: There may be a fee of 60.00 U.S. dollars for all units, per stay. Cash or Credit is accepted."


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## harveyhaddixfan (Oct 28, 2020)

Richelle said:


> After doing more looking, I have seen a lot of resorts that charge housekeeping. However, that is for RCI points reservations. It says nothing for the length of stay and the RCI ID title doesn't say anything about it being 3 days or 5 days. The example below is from the Coconut Bay resort in Fort Lauderdale. RCI # 2626. I do not believe that applies to Wyndham point reservations. So far I've only looks at Florida resorts. Haven't branched out more yet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The key part of that is “may be” in relation to RCI Points. That’s for less than 7 night stays. I typically only book full weeks in my points account to avoid those fees and it’s much harder to find the resorts with points inventory where you can book just a few nights.


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## spackler (Nov 12, 2020)

Looks like the new HK system is now live.


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## harveyhaddixfan (Nov 12, 2020)

And now I’m mad. I had 154 HK credits for next year. Now it’s showing I have 1 of 2 left. They’re going to have all kinds of complaints on how they’ve adjusted existing stuff. This should have been applied starting 2022, not retroactively for existing reservations.


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## 55plus (Nov 12, 2020)

Mine shows unlimited house keeping credits for future years so they kept their promise to grandfather.


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## paxsarah (Nov 12, 2020)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> And now I’m mad. I had 154 HK credits for next year. Now it’s showing I have 1 of 2 left. They’re going to have all kinds of complaints on how they’ve adjusted existing stuff. This should have been applied starting 2022, not retroactively for existing reservations.


I've got two reservations booked in 2021, and accordingly my HK credits are now showing 3/5 remaining. It appears they didn't touch my 2020 HK credits, as I'm showing 3/3 credits though I've used two reservations in 2020 (moot anyway, since I'm out of points for 2020).

I don't have a problem with it applying to a use year that hasn't started for me yet. I'd be interested to hear from someone with a non-January use year (especially say an October UY) how their current year HK credits are appearing compared to the reservations (especially future reservations) they have booked.


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## harveyhaddixfan (Nov 12, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> I've got two reservations booked in 2021, and accordingly my HK credits are now showing 3/5 remaining. It appears they didn't touch my 2020 HK credits, as I'm showing 3/3 credits though I've used two reservations in 2020 (moot anyway, since I'm out of points for 2020).
> 
> I don't have a problem with it applying to a use year that hasn't started for me yet. I'd be interested to hear from someone with a non-January use year (especially say an October UY) how their current year HK credits are appearing compared to the reservations (especially future reservations) they have booked.



My problem is I pushed points to next year and expected to be able to make 3 reservations (I’ve only made 1 so far) with what HK credits I had. So that leaves me having to pay extra since they changed the rules without giving proper notice. I’ll likely call and complain and see what they do. It shows I have 1 left for this year when I had 0 HK credits left.


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## Richelle (Nov 12, 2020)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> My problem is I pushed points to next year and expected to be able to make 3 reservations (I’ve only made 1 so far) with what HK credits I had. So that leaves me having to pay extra since they changed the rules without giving proper notice. I’ll likely call and complain and see what they do. It shows I have 1 left for this year when I had 0 HK credits left.


What would "proper notice" of been to you?


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## cbyrne1174 (Nov 12, 2020)

I spent most of my 2021 points already and I still got housekeeping tokens even though I already used it all up lol


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## spackler (Nov 12, 2020)

Richelle said:


> What would "proper notice" of been to you?



Notice of the policy change should have been given *before* ten of thousands of owners pushed points into 2021.  I'm in the same boat.

I have 6 HK credits for this year (which are basically worthless at this point) and only 1 left for 2021.


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## harveyhaddixfan (Nov 12, 2020)

Richelle said:


> What would "proper notice" of been to you?



Future use years that aren’t in play yet.


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## paxsarah (Nov 12, 2020)

harveyhaddixfan said:


> My problem is I pushed points to next year and expected to be able to make 3 reservations (I’ve only made 1 so far) with what HK credits I had. So that leaves me having to pay extra since they changed the rules without giving proper notice. I’ll likely call and complain and see what they do. It shows I have 1 left for this year when I had 0 HK credits left.



I can see this being an issue with a lot of people, just because of the enormous volume of points that must have been pushed to 2021 (and I assume to a lesser extent, 2022), through no fault of anyone's own. All of those points were deposited with their corresponding HK credits, in some cases where owners surely had to pay cash for any short HK credits to deposit under the old system. Do those owners get any consideration, a refund?


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## Richelle (Nov 12, 2020)

spackler said:


> Notice of the policy change should have been given *before* ten of thousands of owners pushed points into 2021.  I'm in the same boat.
> 
> I have 6 HK credits for this year (which are basically worthless at this point) and only 1 left for 2021.


You're assuming they had decided to change or finished planning the change before COVID hit.


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## Richelle (Nov 12, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> I can see this being an issue with a lot of people, just because of the enormous volume of points that must have been pushed to 2021 (and I assume to a lesser extent, 2022), through no fault of anyone's own. All of those points were deposited with their corresponding HK credits, in some cases where owners surely had to pay cash for any short HK credits to deposit under the old system. Do those owners get any consideration, a refund?


What I think they should have done is just given them whatever amount they were supposed to get and not deduct from reservations already booked.  So if they are supposed to get 6 every year, they should have 6 today and 6 next year, regardless of if they already have reservations booked.


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## Richelle (Nov 12, 2020)

spackler said:


> Notice of the policy change should have been given *before* ten of thousands of owners pushed points into 2021.  I'm in the same boat.
> 
> I have 6 HK credits for this year (which are basically worthless at this point) and only 1 left for 2021.


Let us know what happens if you call.  I do believe they should have given everyone what they were allotted regardless of how many reservations they already have.


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## spackler (Nov 12, 2020)

Over the long run, I actually like this new system, as it's easier to understand (and plan for) than the old system.  It's just that many of us are kinda getting screwed for 2021.


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## Richelle (Nov 12, 2020)

spackler said:


> Over the long run, I actually like this new system, as it's easier to understand (and plan for) than the old system.  It's just that many of us are kinda getting screwed for 2021.


I agree they could have handled the implementation better.


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## paxsarah (Nov 12, 2020)

In general, I also think it's fine. I think the timing poorly coincided with a situation that exacerbates one of its major drawbacks (HK tokens not following points deposited forward), and I hope Wyndham extends some flexibility to owners caught up in it. I'm lucky because our big chunk of points deposited forward were largely used for one big expensive reservation (leaving me with spare HK tokens I won't even use), but I'd be angry if I'd paid to deposit HK forward, then didn't have enough tokens next year and had to pay HK again to book something.


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## spackler (Nov 13, 2020)

A few more 2021 HK credits magically showed up in my account; it's still less than it should be based on how many 2020 points I deposited, but I'll take it.


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## BDMX2 (Nov 13, 2020)

spackler said:


> A few more 2021 HK credits magically showed up in my account; it's still less than it should be based on how many 2020 points I deposited, but I'll take it.


I just looked, mine too!  More than I'll need, so I'm happy.  The weird thing was when I checked yesterday, one of my reservations didn't have any HK points used for it.  Now it does, so they must have been still updating and reconciling after going live with it.


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## Lisa P (Nov 15, 2020)

Back in March, I had deposited 270K points (and associated HK credits) into 2021. So my 2021 allotment was 578K (308K + 270K). With the 1:70K HK allotment, I would expect that there would be 8 HK credits for 2021. But today, I saw that there were 4 HK available for 2020 (with NO more points to use this year, ha, ha) and 5 HK available for 2021 (really just 3 of 5 because I'd already made two 2021 reservations).

I called Wyndham and explained what I thought it ought to be (6 of 8). The rep agreed and spoke with a supervisor to see what could be done. Then I was told that the "extra 1" (making 5 instead of my normal 4 in 2021) was a bonus because I had made a points deposit - there was nothing more to be done. When I said that I'd like to discuss it further with a supervisor, the rep said that because I made my points deposit back in March, he thought I should speak to Owner Care instead of the supervisor. So he transferred my call.

She agreed with me that I should have been allotted 8 HK credits for 2021 for a balance of 578K points. However, she said that IT is still trying to address this issue. So she said she would document her findings in notes on my account. She asked that I wait a few weeks to let IT correct the system. Meanwhile, if I run out of remaining HK credits while trying to make a 2021 reservation, I should call back Owner Care and they'll see her notes and help. She also suggested that if IT does not correct this problem in the next few weeks, to call back again. But she did indicate that this problem is affecting a great many people and they are definitely aware and working on it. I was satisfied with her response.


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## Richelle (Nov 15, 2020)

My step sister also owns Wyndham.  She is a biannual even owner.  Since she couldn't travel this year, she moved her points to next year (her off-year) awhile back.  I helped her book a reservation with those points.  She didn't have access to the site because she didn't have her password handy, so we called in.  I fully expected the VC to tell me she would have to pay $159 for housekeeping, but she didn't.  She didn't have to pay anything for that booking.  So I guess biannual owners who moved their points to their off-year, before the change went into effect, have at least one HK credit.  I will ask her to log in later to see if she has others.


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## Roger830 (Nov 15, 2020)

Lisa P said:


> She agreed with me that I should have been allotted 8 HK credits for 2021 for a balance of 578K points. However, she said that *IT is still trying to address this issue*. So she said she would document her findings in notes on my account. She asked that I wait a few weeks to let IT correct the system. Meanwhile, if I run out of remaining HK credits while trying to make a 2021 reservation, I should call back Owner Care and they'll see her notes and help. She also suggested that if IT does not correct this problem in the next few weeks, to call back again. But she did indicate that this problem is affecting a great many people and they are definitely aware and working on it. I was satisfied with her response.



When I was a data processing programmer, in 15 minutes  I could have written a program that would have done the correct update.

After points deposit, the starting use year amount is increased by the deposit amount and is visible next to the remaining amount.
All that they had to do was divide that amount by 70,000 to get the number of housekeeping credits, then read the reservation file for 2021 and subtract one HC for each reservation.

I had 350 of the old HC credits. After the update I had zero. A few hours after talking to owner care, they gave me one, I should have three.


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## dgalati (Nov 15, 2020)

Roger830 said:


> When I was a data processing programmer, in 15 minutes  I could have written a program that would done the correct update.
> 
> After points deposit, the starting use year amount is increased by the deposit amount and is visible next to the remaining amount.
> All that they had to do was divide that amount by 70,000 to get the number of housekeeping credits, then read the reservation file for 2021 and subtract one HC for each reservation.
> ...


Not tring to be negative and just stating facts I have experienced about using the Wyndham online experience.  Some post on this forum and wonder why so many owners are unhappy or post negative comments about the Wyndham system! Every update for the last several years has been nothing but a big fiasco and headache for owners trying to use their ownership. When will they really improve your online experiance?


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## paxsarah (Nov 15, 2020)

spackler said:


> A few more 2021 HK credits magically showed up in my account; it's still less than it should be based on how many 2020 points I deposited, but I'll take it.


Mine, too. I had previously shown 3/5 remaining; now it's 4/6 remaining. I'm not sure where they came up with 6 - if they were basing it on my UY points plus deposited points from 2020, it should have been 8. However, if they simply decided to use actual mathematical rounding to round up instead of down (my regular UY points for 2021 would give me 5.55 HK credits), then the 6 would make sense. And although they didn't adjust my 2022 HK - it showed as 3/3 remaining and still does - it would be correct under mathematical rounding (because it calculates to 3.35 and would round down).

So it's possible that they changed how they're rounding, or it's possible that they simply threw a few HK credits at us for 2021 by a method that none of us are privy to.


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## Jan M. (Nov 16, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Not tring to be negative and just stating facts I have experienced about using the Wyndham online experience.  Some post on this forum and wonder why so many owners are unhappy or post negative comments about the Wyndham system! Every update for the last several years has been nothing but a big fiasco and headache for owners trying to use their ownership. When will they really improve your online experience?



Domenic, as a long time Brown's fan you should be used to being disappointed in something you've stayed loyal to! Kidding aside, we know I'm a Wyndham fan, of the resorts, but not of what they keep doing with the website. 

Since Voyager came out in May 2017 a person really has to be drinking the kool-aid to only say positive things about the website. Either that or they haven't owned long enough to remember how simple it used to be to see availability, make reservations, see all the information on those reservations and view your financial statement. Three and a half years later and some people's accounts still aren't right.


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## dgalati (Nov 16, 2020)

Jan M. said:


> Domenic, as a long time Brown's fan you should be used to being disappointed in something you've stayed loyal to! Kidding aside, we know I'm a Wyndham fan, of the resorts, but not of what they keep doing with the website.
> 
> Since Voyager came out in May 2017 a person really has to be drinking the kool-aid to only say positive things about the website. Either that or they haven't owned long enough to remember how simple it used to be to see availability, make reservations, see all the information on those reservations and view your financial statement. Three and a half years later and some people's accounts still aren't right.


It is very disappointing. Every update has some glitch or a new problem is created. Wyndham online updates are very similar to being a Browns fan.  Next year will be our year and this update to improve and enhance your online experience just never happens. The bad part is we just never give up hope and keep supporting failure. LOL


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## HtownRose (Nov 28, 2020)

I missed this notice in the October email as the heading was "VIP by Wyndham Update" & I'm not VIP.  I'm an every-odd-year 154,000 point resale owner, so at the bottom of the food chain.  I was already hurt by the replacement of credit pool with points deposit, & this change makes that even worse.  And now they won't even take my contract in Ovations?  This is getting unsustainable.


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## paxsarah (Nov 29, 2020)

HtownRose said:


> I missed this notice in the October email as the heading was "VIP by Wyndham Update" & I'm not VIP.  I'm an every-odd-year 154,000 point resale owner, so at the bottom of the food chain.  I was already hurt by the replacement of credit pool with points deposit, & this change makes that even worse.  And now they won't even take my contract in Ovations?  This is getting unsustainable.


Did you contact them about Ovations already and they rejected it? If not, you won’t know whether they’ll take your contract until you make a request.


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## HtownRose (Dec 5, 2020)

paxsarah said:


> Did you contact them about Ovations already and they rejected it? If not, you won’t know whether they’ll take your contract until you make a request.



No, I have a reservation for Clearwater in April I'm hoping to use.  Maybe after that.


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## Twenty20 (Dec 10, 2021)

This system is ridiculous and another reason I look forward to dumping this atrocious product.  The fact that HK credits don't transfer along with a points deposit into a future use year is a pure cash grab by this fraud of a company


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