# [2017] Why NOT to make a voluntary ARDA financial contribution this year, with your maintenance fee payment



## WBP (Aug 19, 2017)

The stories of how ARDA, a trade association that represents the interests of timeshare developers, and alleges to represent the interests of timeshare owners, increase in number and magnitude every year. It is clear, ARDA'S most influential constituency are timeshare developers, who are one of the vehicles that ARDA uses to solicit contributions from timeshare owners, on the basis that ARDA is looking after the best interests of timeshare owners. If that is not ripe with conflict, suspect, and toxic odors, I don't know what is.

Social Media attention on Diamond's business practices, described by many using terms such as deception, fraud, theft, etc., seem to be on the increase, as is attention on ARDA's alleged blatant disregard of Diamonds' business integrity and ethics, and alleged violations by Diamond of ARDA's Code of Ethics. It is reported that ARDA has looked the other way, and intentionally avoided eye to eye contact with Diamond, and their business practices, for years. This phenomena is well described in a variety of medium, including direct customer accounts of the alleged behaviors.

As Marriott Owners know, there is a line item on our maintenance fee bill, for a voluntary contribution to ARDA. Based, perhaps, on the (seemingly false) premise that ARDA is good for timeshare owners (remember, ARDA represents the many devils in timesharing). In so far, I think the time is long overdue, that we Marriott Owners take a strong stand, and vigorously discourage voluntary contributions by timeshare owners to ARDA.

Over the past few years, there have been numerous examples of large scale, bad practices by timeshare developers, not the least of which was the case of the Wyndham timeshare salesperson, which resulted in a very large financial award to that salesperson (and, it is argued, the departure of Wyndham timeshare division's President, who presided over that mess (and held a leadership position at ARDA)), the perennial, vial descriptions of Diamond's business practices, and the widespread deceptions by the developers of The Manhattan Club, to name but just a few.

On ARDA's Board of Directors, are some of the timeshare industry's most notorious leaders, including an attorney who has stated that he and his firm represent Diamond Resorts.

The 2018 maintenance fee bills are only a few months away. It would be nice to get the ball rolling now, and to send ARDA a message about their antics, and the antics of some of the developers, and the industry that they represent.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 19, 2017)

At least Marriott doesn't make it seem like a mandatory charge, as Starwood does.  They add it into the total, and when you pay your fees without the ARDA charge of $5.00, you have a balance due of $5.00.  It's absolutely how it is.  You have to call and tell them you won't pay that fee, so they will take it off.


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## mj2vacation (Aug 19, 2017)

Well, it is called the American Resort *Development  *Association.


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## Dean (Aug 19, 2017)

I skip if for the very reasons mentioned.  It's not that we don't garner any benefit but the benefit we get is second hand on the shirt tails of the developers. Plus I am suspicious that the developers are donating the money gathered and acting like it's their contribution, I wonder if they even deduct it and/or if they receive any additional benefits/perks based not he amount or % they do collect?


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## RX8 (Aug 19, 2017)

A couple years ago a scammer upfront listing company proudly listed their ARDA membership on their website. I confirmed  with the ARDA member listing that they were indeed a member. When I sent an email to ARDA advising that this business was scamming people they replied to me that they had recently became aware of their business practices. Yet, it still took months before the scammer was removed. 

I'll never give them my $5.00.


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## Sugarcubesea (Aug 19, 2017)

rickandcindy23 said:


> At least Marriott doesn't make it seem like a mandatory charge, as Starwood does.  They add it into the total, and when you pay your fees without the ARDA charge of $5.00, you have a balance due of $5.00.  It's absolutely how it is.  You have to call and tell them you won't pay that fee, so they will take it off.


Every Year, I have to call multiple times to get that $5.00 taken off my SDO account... It's maddening...


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## dougp26364 (Aug 19, 2017)

I've refused to contribute for years. Unfortunately, I'm reasonably certain the average timeshare owner has no idea and pays the fee without question.


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## taffy19 (Aug 19, 2017)

Cindy, is it still mandatory with VSE?

It was mandatory too with the one single Hyatt week that we own in Maui and is also owned by ILG like your resort.

It also took several calls to have them remove that tiny little charge,out of principal, and they finally did.

The $5.00 charge was no longer mandatory this year.  How strange that they bill differently for different brands that ILG owns.  I wonder why?


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## WBP (Aug 19, 2017)

mj2vacation said:


> Well, it is called the American Resort *Development  *Association.



Well, here's one positive timeshare "development:"

https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/ag-...ettlement-midtown-manhattan-timeshare-scammed


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## BocaBoy (Aug 19, 2017)

Unfortunately, I have to comment.  I am not a gung-ho supporter of these contributions and would never fault someone for not contributing, but you are all missing a VERY IMPORTANT distinction.  Our contributions are not to ARDA, but to ARDA-ROC.  Many here will say is the same thing, but it is not by any means.  The ARDA-ROC agenda (ROC = Resort Owners Coalition) is pretty much pro-owner AND pro-developer on issues where the interests coincide, which are many, such as taxation of timeshares.


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## Panina (Aug 19, 2017)

BocaBoy said:


> Our contributions are not to ARDA, but to ARDA-ROC.  Many here will say is the same thing, but it is not by any means.  The ARDA-ROC agenda (ROC = Resort Owners Coalition) is pretty much pro-owner AND pro-developer on issues where the interests coincide, which are many, such as taxation of timeshares.


I didn't know that. I will have to call my resorts that list it to find out as I have only seen ARDA on my bill without the ROC.  I never have paid it in the past.


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## WBP (Aug 19, 2017)

http://thetimesharecrusader.blogspot.com/2017/08/a-code-of-ethicsgood-only-if-enforeced.html?m=1


BocaBoy said:


> Unfortunately, I have to comment.  I am not a gung-ho supporter of these contributions and would never fault someone for not contributing, but you are all missing a VERY IMPORTANT distinction.  Our contributions are not to ARDA, but to ARDA-ROC.  Many here will say is the same thing, but it is not by any means.  The ARDA-ROC agenda (ROC = Resort Owners Coalition) is pretty much pro-owner AND pro-developer on issues where the interests coincide, which are many, such as taxation of timeshares.




Here is the latest membership list of the ARDA-ROC from their very own website. While it is difficult to distinguish the Industry Insider members, vs. non-industry or consumer members, one clue is the designation "RRP" that follows the names of 16 of the 24 members (2/3). RRP is an acronym for "Registered Resort Professional," a designation created by none other than the "ARDA" international Foundation. It is conceivable that other members of the ARDA-ROC Board are, in fact, Industry Insiders, who have not "earned" the RRP designation, in which the case, the ARDA-ROC Board would be more heavily weighted with Industry Insiders.

Yes, BocaBoy, is correct, we owners are asked to contribute to the ARDA-ROC. I maintain that you can change the wrapper, but the contents remain the same.

http://www.arda.org/arprrp/

NOTE: Robert Webb, Esq, RRP, a Partner in the law firm, Baker and Hostetler (and a member of the ARDA-ROC Board), writes here that he and his firm represents Diamond Resorts (I'd vigorously encourage you to read Attorney Webb's letter of January 16, 2015, referenced in the link, immediately below):

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/Diamond-Resorts-Lawsuit/Diamond Resort Complaint I.pdf


*ARDA-ROC Board*

*Ken McKelvey CPA, RRP*, ARDA-ROC Chairman, Defender Resorts, Inc.

*John Albert*, Marriott Vacations Worldwide

*John Burlingame, RRP*, Hyatt Vacation Ownership, Inc.

*Dale Curtin*, Vistana Signature Experiences
*
Janice Feirstein RRP*, Daily Management, Inc.

*Paul Goodrich*, SPM Resorts, Inc.

*Don Harrill RRP*, Holiday Inn Club Vacations

*Neil Hutchinson RRP*, Hilton Grand Vacations Company

*William Ingersoll RRP*, Holland & Knight

*Kimberly Tramontana RRP*, Breckenridge Grand Vacations

*Tom Nelson, *Holiday Inn Club Vacations

*Howard Nusbaum RRP*, ARDA

*Ron Naves*, Welk Resorts

*David Pontius RRP*, Bluegreen Resorts

*Geoff Richards*, Wyndham Vacation Ownership

*Chris Van Ruiten RRP*, Comerica Securities, Inc.

*Lisa Siegert-Free RRP*, Christie Lodge

*Sverre Thomassen*, Marriott Desert Springs Villas

*Robert Webb Esq., RRP*, Baker & Hostetler

*Stephen Weisz*, *RRP*, Marriott Vacations Worldwide

*Robert Miller, RRP,* Marriott Vacations Worldwide
*
Jon Fredericks, RRP,* Welk Resorts

*Mark Wang,* Hilton Grand Vacations

*Richard Muller, RRP,* VRI Resorts


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## WBP (Aug 19, 2017)

Additional information about ARDA's "Code of Ethics"

http://thetimesharecrusader.blogspot.com/2017/08/a-code-of-ethicsgood-only-if-enforeced.html

http://www.arda.org/ethics/


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## WBP (Aug 22, 2017)

WJS said:


> http://thetimesharecrusader.blogspot.com/2017/08/a-code-of-ethicsgood-only-if-enforeced.html?m=1
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*For those who have had a chance to read this:

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/Diamond-Resorts-Lawsuit/Diamond Resort Complaint I.pdf

I wonder what conclusions you draw of ARDA-ROC Board Member, Robert Webb, Esq, RRP's writings?*

*Back to my original point, ARDA can call the ARDA-ROC whatever they want (Whitey Bulger disguised himself as "Charlie Gasko" for more than 15 years, and called himself "Charlie Gasko"), but at the end of the day, in my opinion a contribution to the ARDA-ROC, is a contribution to ARDA, and sustaining ARDA's mission, and the notorious work of ARDA's members, viewed by many as "anti-consumer." I propose, therefore, that this is the year for timeshare owners to mobilize, and NOT CONTRIBUTE TO ARDA-ROC.*


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 22, 2017)

taffy19 said:


> Cindy, is it still mandatory with VSE?
> 
> It was mandatory too with the one single Hyatt week that we own in Maui and is also owned by ILG like your resort.
> 
> ...


We will know in a few months, when MF bills come due for 2018.  I already paid the estimate fees, which I do every year to book 2018 weeks.  

It's been a fight for me personally, I can tell you that.  I am frustrated because one year, our fees went down because they had been high for several years to update the SBP units.  I had to pay ahead to book my weeks the next year.  Well, I had a credit of around $100 per week, but MINUS the $5 ARDA fee for each week, so they took the ARDA fee from the credit on each week.  I had to call to have them credit that $5 back to my account.  We own multiple weeks, so it was a long time before I saw that $5 credited per week.


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## silentg (Aug 22, 2017)

I usually deduct it


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## bazzap (Aug 22, 2017)

rickandcindy23 said:


> We will know in a few months, when MF bills come due for 2018.  I already paid the estimate fees, which I do every year to book 2018 weeks.



I am confused, why do you need to have paid any fees (even estimated fees) already to book 2018 weeks?
I have booked many of my 2018 weeks, but I won't pay any MFs until Jan/Feb 2018 when they are due.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 22, 2017)

bazzap said:


> I am confused, why do you need to have paid any fees (even estimated fees) already to book 2018 weeks?
> I have booked many of my 2018 weeks, but I won't pay any MFs until Jan/Feb 2018 when they are due.



Pretty sure Cindy meant that for her Vistana and other non-Marriott timeshares.  There are some companies that, unlike Marriott, require pre-payment of estimated fees before anything can be booked for that use year.


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## vacationtime1 (Aug 22, 2017)

SueDonJ said:


> Pretty sure Cindy meant that for her Vistana and other non-Marriott timeshares.  There are some companies that, unlike Marriott, require pre-payment of estimated fees before anything can be booked for that use year.



Sheraton Broadway Plantation (of which Cindy owns several) requires that MF's be paid before a unit can be deposited into Interval for trading.  For whatever reason, Sheraton Desert Oasis (another good trader, also managed by Vistana) does not require advance payment.  Who said Vistana is consistent?


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 22, 2017)

Yes, Vistana requires fees before making reservations for the following year.  

You could deduct the $5.00, but when you are paying ahead of time, like we do, and fees are estimated (based on the current year), sometimes you have to watch closely because if fees go down, that $5 is absorbed into a credit, so you pay anyway.  

I like that Marriott doesn't require payments ahead of time. That is a rare thing in the timeshare universe.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 22, 2017)

rickandcindy23 said:


> ... I like that Marriott doesn't require payments ahead of time. That is a rare thing in the timeshare universe.



I also like that Marriott's MF invoices list the ARDA-ROC fees as a separate line item that requires opting in instead of out.


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## bazzap (Aug 22, 2017)

I understand now. 
A benefit MVC offers which others don't that I didn't even know about.
Thank you all.


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## taffy19 (Aug 22, 2017)

SueDonJ said:


> I also like that Marriott's MF invoices list the ARDA-ROC fees as a separate line item that requires opting in instead of out.


Wasn't it ALWAYS voluntarily with the Marriott?  I can't remember that it was not.

It was mandatory with the Hyatt Ka'anapali first but not this year.  They gave us an option now to pay it or not.  Why not for the VSE resorts that are managed also by ILG or does it depend on each resort by the HOA?


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## WBP (Nov 18, 2017)

Tis the season, ARDA's got there hand out.


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## Sugarcubesea (Nov 18, 2017)

I have to call every year to get that $5 off my SDO bill


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## bobpark56 (Nov 18, 2017)

Diamond Resorts International (DRI) bills include $7 for ARDA-ROC.


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## bazzap (Nov 18, 2017)

I have been intrigued reading here about the ARDA-ROC voluntary payment.
Does it only show for US Resident owners?
As a European Resident owner, it neither shows on my invoices nor anywhere going all the way through the payment process.
I can only guess that I am not being asked to contribute?
I trust anyway that I am not being charged it involuntarily without it even being shown?


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## Cropman (Nov 18, 2017)

Is the fee included with Disney?  I just have my fees taken out of my checking account, so I never pay attention.  I make sure to not pay them with Hyatt.


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## l0410z (Nov 21, 2017)

I paid the fee for years never knowing what it was but believing that Marriott would not be collecting it if it wasn't beneficial.  About 8 years ago my wife wrote out the check and asked me about the ARDA fee.  Not knowing what it was and me not being able to explain it she didn't pay it. We have not paid it since.  I am looking to see if I can find a Resort World of Orlando MF bill for a timeshare I owned from 1995 to 2015.   I am curious to see if the fee  was contained within the MF as a line item.  In any case, the fee for my 3 Marriott units is $30 and I will not pay it.


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## WBP (Nov 21, 2017)

l0410z said:


> I paid the fee for years never knowing what it was but believing that Marriott would not be collecting it if it wasn't beneficial.  About 8 years ago my wife wrote out the check and asked me about the ARDA fee.  Not knowing what it was and me not being able to explain it she didn't pay it. We have not paid it since.  I am looking to see if I can find a Resort World of Orlando MF bill for a timeshare I owned from 1995 to 2015.   I am curious to see if the fee  was contained within the MF as a line item.  In any case, the fee for my 3 Marriott units is $30 and I will not pay it.



It's beneficial.......to Marriott, for sure. And, the more revenue that MVC brings into the ARDA-ROC, the more Marriott looks good to their developer colleagues, who sit on the ARDA-ROC.


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## Saintsfanfl (Nov 21, 2017)

bobpark56 said:


> Diamond Resorts International (DRI) bills include $7 for ARDA-ROC.



Is it mandatory? I didn't think it could ever be required but some bills make it look that way.


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## TUGBrian (Nov 21, 2017)

one of the biggest shams in the industry is the "voluntary" fee...

if its voluntary...it should be required to check the box...not take effort to uncheck it.

owners would be better off taking that $4-7 dollars, and using it to discover TUG instead =)


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## tschwa2 (Nov 21, 2017)

bazzap said:


> I am confused, why do you need to have paid any fees (even estimated fees) already to book 2018 weeks?
> I have booked many of my 2018 weeks, but I won't pay any MFs until Jan/Feb 2018 when they are due.


If you are a non SVN member who owns at Sheraton Broadway Plantation, you have to prepay your MF in order to make a reservation for the following use year.  This only applies to SVN member weeks if they are depositing in II, not ones booking home resorts or even star option reservation.   I don't believe it applies to other voluntary non SVN owners at other resorts.  Just an annoying quirk for non SVN SBP owners.


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## Egret1986 (Nov 21, 2017)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Is it mandatory? I didn't think it could ever be required but some bills make it look that way.



Not mandatory, but as you say, the DRI bills make it look that way.  If you only pay the maintenance fee and not the ARDA fee, then you show a balance due on your account unless you make the effort to call and have the fee taken off your account.  I'm sure the majority of folks just pay the full amount "due" most likely unknowingly or feeling it's not worth the hassle.  It's very deceptive, like many of their practices.   I'll make the effort to call DRI and have the "voluntary" fee taken off my account.  There ought to be a regulation that they can't do this.  Hey, ARDA or ARDA-ROC; want to help a timeshare owner out on this one?  Yeah, I didn't think so.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 21, 2017)

bazzap said:


> I have been intrigued reading here about the ARDA-ROC voluntary payment.
> Does it only show for US Resident owners?
> As a European Resident owner, it neither shows on my invoices nor anywhere going all the way through the payment process.
> I can only guess that I am not being asked to contribute?
> I trust anyway that I am not being charged it involuntarily without it even being shown?


The ARDA-ROC is a political action committee that lobbies US lawmakers on behalf of owners, so they say. Since it is a political action committee, it would be illegal for them to collect this fee from foreign owners. So this is why you don't see it in Europe. I believe it was DRI that got in trouble a few years ago because they were adding it to all their bills and foreign owners were paying the fee which violates US finance laws since these PACs donate money to candidates.


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## WBP (Nov 21, 2017)

Egret1986 said:


> Not mandatory, but as you say, the DRI bills make it look that way.  If you only pay the maintenance fee and not the ARDA fee, then you show a balance due on your account unless you make the effort to call and have the fee taken off your account.  I'm sure the majority of folks just pay the full amount "due" most likely unknowingly or feeling it's not worth the hassle.  It's very deceptive, like many of their practices.   I'll make the effort to call DRI and have the "voluntary" fee taken off my account.  There ought to be a regulation that they can't do this.  Hey, ARDA or ARDA-ROC; want to help a timeshare owner out on this one?  Yeah, I didn't think so.




You can expect ARDA and ARDA-ROC to support Diamond, and condone Diamond's behaviors and business practices.

Where there's smoke, there's fire.


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## bazzap (Nov 22, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> The ARDA-ROC is a political action committee that lobbies US lawmakers on behalf of owners, so they say. Since it is a political action committee, it would be illegal for them to collect this fee from foreign owners. So this is why you don't see it in Europe. I believe it was DRI that got in trouble a few years ago because they were adding it to all their bills and foreign owners were paying the fee which violates US finance laws since these PACs donate money to candidates.


Thank you for the clarification.
That is good to know.


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## BocaBoy (Nov 22, 2017)

I for one appreciate the ARDA-ROC lobbying efforts, especially on timeshare taxes.  This group lobbies on issues where owners and developers have interests that coincide, which frankly are many.  I am not saying that everyone should contribute (and I do not contribute $10 for every one of our units), but I am amused by the number of people who refuse to contribute based on assumptions, without understanding the issues that ARDA-ROC lobbies on.  Many here do not even know the difference between ARDA and ARDA-ROC.


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## l0410z (Nov 22, 2017)

BocaBoy said:


> I for one appreciate the ARDA-ROC lobbying efforts, especially on timeshare taxes.  This group lobbies on issues where owners and developers have interests that coincide, which frankly are many.  I am not saying that everyone should contribute (and I do not contribute $10 for every one of our units), but I am amused by the number of people who refuse to contribute based on assumptions, without understanding the issues that ARDA-ROC lobbies on.  Many here do not even know the difference between ARDA and ARDA-ROC.



You may be 100 percent correct in that many people do not know what they do.  As I posted above I paid for  15 years until I stopped because I do not know what they do.   If a group is asking for contributions, should they  provide information to contributors on what they accomplished and what they are working on.  I have received zero information from them over 23 years.  I would bet donuts to dollars developers are updated regularly on what is going on.  If they have done good on my behalf, I am amazed they represent my interest and do good on my behalf but think so little of the need to reach out to me to continue a donation.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 22, 2017)

l0410z said:


> You may be 100 percent correct in that many people do not know what they do.  As I posted above I paid for  15 years until I stopped because I do not know what they do.   If a group is asking for contributions, should they  provide information to contributors on what they accomplished and what they are working on.  I have received zero information from them over 23 years.  I would bet donuts to dollars developers are updated regularly on what is going on.  If they have done good on my behalf, I am amazed they represent my interest and do good on my behalf but think so little of the need to reach out to me to continue a donation.



arda.org = the industry professionals' organization

ardaroc.org = the owners' organization

All the info you never knew you wanted.  

I'm with Boca on this one despite understanding the objections of many to voluntary donations being a component of MF's invoices, and, the probability that ARDA-ROC's goals may well indeed complement ARDA's.  Considering that as an owner I don't view MVW as an adversary but rather a supplier/manager of something I choose to own, it stands to reason that generally I am in favor of good collaboration between MVW and owners, which then extends naturally IMO to the same between ARDA and ARDA-ROC.

Has anyone stopped to consider that it may be required of the timeshare developers/managers to notify owners of the only well-established group that lobbies on behalf of owners (however limited that lobbying may be?)  If that's the case, which wouldn't surprise me considering the remarkably negative attention that timeshares have always gotten and the constant push owners make to be legislatively protected, it makes perfect sense that the MF's packages are the perfect conduit.  I think MVW does it right, delineating the suggested donation on the MF's invoices and making it opt-in rather than opt-out.  If they weren't as transparent about that collection aspect, I would of course share the same negative views as owners of those different companies.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 22, 2017)

I say let the naive owner pay that stupid fee.  I will not pay a single dime to the organization, whose membership is still entirely timeshare developers.  There is no distinguishing between the two, in my opinion.  The same developers are on both boards of directors.  They haven't asked any of you to be on the board of the ARDA-ROC, have they?  Brian would be the perfect person to ask, or how about Denise M.? 

These creeps are not looking out for you at all.  What is good for sales is also good for the developer.  So consider that both organizations, if you can even make an argument there are two separate organizations, are good for the developer.  They can pat themselves on the back as much as they want.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 22, 2017)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I say let the naive owner pay that stupid fee.  I will not pay a single dime to the organization, whose membership is still entirely timeshare developers.  There is no distinguishing between the two, in my opinion.  The same developers are on both boards of directors.  They haven't asked any of you to be on the board of the ARDA-ROC, have they?  Brian would be the perfect person to ask, or how about Denise M.?
> 
> These creeps are not looking out for you at all.  What is good for sales is also good for the developer.  So consider that both organizations, if you can even make an argument there are two separate organizations, are good for the developer.  They can pat themselves on the back as much as they want.



Recently, last year or the year before, MVW included in the MF's package a one-sheet introduction to the ARDA-ROC representative for MVW owners.  I don't remember all the details (and that piece of paper is now somewhere in all the moving boxes that haven't yet been unpacked) but I remember noting that he was neither a timeshare developer nor employed by a timeshare company.  I haven't gotten any snail-mail MF's packages yet so I don't know if something similar is included this year.

I'm not trying to say that everyone should accept ARDA-ROC whole-heartedly or that everyone should pay the suggested donation to the group.  But as Boca said, it's fairly obvious that TUGgers generally don't educate themselves about ARDA-ROC and Cindy, respectfully, I think you're wrong about the make-up of ARDA-ROC's membership and representatives.


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## TUGBrian (Nov 22, 2017)

Im still waiting for all the examples where ARDA ROC champions owners interests over developers interests?

Im still waiting for ARDAROC to make ANY sort of stand or champion a cause of combating illegal and immoral timeshare sales practices still active across their membership ranks

Im still waiting for ARDA ROC to even make a peep about its own "sister/brother/mom/whatever" entity ARDA continually accepting upfront fee resale scammers to their membership roster.


as an outfit that champions (and even uses in its name) the term "owner"...they are awfully quiet on the issues that actually impact owners every single day.

Fact is this outfit collects millions of dollars each year from owners, a hefty percentage of that from owners who have no idea its even being collected as part of their annual maintenance fees. 

I suppose one could find a silver lining somewhere, but its within an extremely large storm cloud and not visible to the naked eye.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 22, 2017)

TUGBrian said:


> Im still waiting for all the examples where ARDA ROC champions owners interests over developers interests?
> 
> Im still waiting for ARDAROC to make ANY sort of stand or champion a cause of combating illegal and immoral timeshare sales practices still active across their membership ranks
> 
> ...



I guess I don't understand why ARDA-ROC is considered to be contrary to owners if their views and actions are not ALWAYS in contrast to those of ARDA?  If that's the benchmark then sure, you can say ARDA-ROC is fairly useless.  As far as questionable companies being included among the membership ranks, there I agree with you that both ARDA and ARDA-ROC could do more to screen their membership and disallow the apparent fraudsters.  But that inclusion doesn't reflect an automatic approval by ARDA-ROC of questionable practices (much like the acceptance of certain political operatives in party PACs doesn't always reflect total agreement with the party.  )

Take a quick look at the "Core State Issues" found by clicking the "Legislative Issues" tab on ardaroc.org for examples of what they're doing.  According to the summaries only one of the four highlighted issues is jointly supported by ARDA and ARDA-ROC, but all four are/would be beneficial to owners.  If you want to dig deeper there's historical content that plays out the same metrics.

No doubt ARDA-ROC can, and should, do more for owners.  But the negativity towards it on TUG always surprises me considering that if we worked with them to make it better, the collective power of TUG users' knowledge born of experience and ARDA-ROC's influence could do us all a world of good.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 22, 2017)

Interesting discussion.

I've always opted to not pay the voluntary ARDA-ROC contribution since, as many here have said, I assumed they looked out only for the developer interests. But after reading this thread and checking out the ARDA-ROC website, I may reconsider that for my 2018 bills. Clearly, they are not going to tackle the issues mentioned by Brian that are against the business interests of the developers, but as BocaBoy and Susan have suggested, that doesn't mean that there are not issues where owner and developer interests align and where they provide us value. In those cases, ARDA-ROC does, in fact, support owner interests with their lobbying efforts in the state jurisdictions and in DC. They mention on their website issues like:

Attempts to impose state sales taxes on timeshares
Attempts to tax owners of timeshares as transient occupants (i.e. hotel guests)
Attempts by the IRS to tax timeshare homeowners associations' capital reserves (part of maintenance fee) as income
Attempts to tax annual assessment through a state food and beverage tax provision
In addition, they support legislation, like that recently passed in South Carolina, designed to address the deceptive business practices by fraudulent up-front fee companies in the secondary market. I have not read that bill, so I don't know if it really offers good consumer protections, but at least conceptually, it sounds like they are doing some good work that might be worthy of a few bucks a year.

These are all issues where owner interests and developer interests align, so why not support those efforts? Just because they don't fight for owners *against* the developers, that doesn't mean they can't offer a worthwhile service by fighting for owner and developer interests in the state capitals and in Washington, DC.


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## Dean (Nov 22, 2017)

SueDonJ said:


> I guess I don't understand why ARDA-ROC is considered to be contrary to owners if their views and actions are not ALWAYS in contrast to those of ARDA?  If that's the benchmark then sure, you can say ARDA-ROC is fairly useless.  As far as questionable companies being included among the membership ranks, there I agree with you that both ARDA and ARDA-ROC could do more to screen their membership and disallow the apparent fraudsters.  But that inclusion doesn't reflect an automatic approval by ARDA-ROC of questionable practices (much like the acceptance of certain political operatives in party PACs doesn't always reflect total agreement with the party.  )
> 
> Take a quick look at the "Core State Issues" found by clicking the "Legislative Issues" tab on ardaroc.org for examples of what they're doing.  According to the summaries only one of the four highlighted issues is jointly supported by ARDA and ARDA-ROC, but all four are/would be beneficial to owners.  If you want to dig deeper there's historical content that plays out the same metrics.
> 
> No doubt ARDA-ROC can, and should, do more for owners.  But the negativity towards it on TUG always surprises me considering that if we worked with them to make it better, the collective power of TUG users' knowledge born of experience and ARDA-ROC's influence could do us all a world of good.


As I've said previously, there are things they do that clearly benefit owners but in general, these are things that also benefit developers/management companies and the benefit for owners is done vicariously.  They may or may not be a benign dictator but saying ARDA is for the timeshare owner is basically the same statement as saying Steve Weisz (Marriott), Ken Potrock (DVC) (etc) are for the timeshare owner.  They are but only up to a point.  When I see clear efforts on their part that would pit them against the developer/management company (including their own) and in favor of the members, that's when I'll be a believer.  IMO a donation to ARDA is a donation for lobbying to benefit those timeshares companies which may or may not benefit the individual owner.


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## l0410z (Nov 22, 2017)

I am not sure I agree that one must do research when being asked for a donation unless it beyond what is provided.   Especially if the request is every year.     When I get solicited at home for donation by a non profit  organization,  the first questioned asked is what percent collected goes to administration costs. They are required by law to provide the accurate information. Non profit can mean large salaries and padded overhead.   I am amazed when I hear that administrative costs are more than 25%.  I get responses of costs being 85% of contributions to zero.  Can anyone tell me this information for ARDA-ROC.  In case not, I did send an email requesting it.


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## TUGBrian (Nov 22, 2017)

as mentioned above, when developer and owner interests align...ARDAROC gets involved...sometimes.

ARDAROC will never champion any cause that pits them against developers for the benefit of owners...and thus why owners should think twice before making their donation.

both ARDA and ARDAROC are fully aware of the deceptive and sleazy sales practices done by its own members.

both ARDA and ARDAROC are fully aware of the scams that plague the resale market, many of which by their own members

These two major issues that impact 100% of timeshare owners have been issues for DECADES, literally longer than either organization has been in existence.  There is simply zero excuse for this from an outfit that claims to represent owners.

the only voice an owner has within ARDA or ARDAROC is your "voluntary" contribution with your maintenance fees.  if you feel that the work they do is worth that annual contribution, so be it.  those that do not and wish they would actually focus on the real issues that beleaguer all owners, should withhold this donation.


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## Dean (Nov 22, 2017)

l0410z said:


> I am not sure I agree that one must do research when being asked for a donation unless it beyond what is provided.   Especially if the request is every year.     When I get solicited at home for donation by a non profit  organization,  the first questioned asked is what percent collected goes to administration costs. They are required by law to provide the accurate information. Non profit can mean large salaries and padded overhead.   I am amazed when I hear that administrative costs are more than 25%.  I get responses of costs being 85% of contributions to zero.  Can anyone tell me this information for ARDA-ROC.  In case not, I did send an email requesting it.


While sort of the same thing, the other thing I ask is whether the person contacting me is a volunteer, works for the company or is a paid solicitor.  Another issue for some companies is that there is a double layer of admin costs, ie United Way.  And lastly, most of the pass through organizations fund things against my ethics, UW again comes to mind.  OTOH, UW funds things that could not do the fund raising themselves plus there is a considerable amount of community pressure that falls onto owners/directors of companies within a community related to UW and thus is passed on to their employees.


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## ecwinch (Nov 22, 2017)

Unfortunately the ARDA is the only hope - albeit small one - of stopping/slowing the growing trend of applying Transient Occupancy Taxes (TOT) to timeshares - i.e. CA, OR, WA, USVI, etc.


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## TUGBrian (Nov 22, 2017)

indeed, and developers have no interest in additional fees for owners that arent going to themselves.  Rest assured if ARDAROC didnt even exist, ARDA itself or developer/industry lawers would be lobbying against these measures.

ie, they dont want to make timeshare ownership more expensive than it already is, when that additional expense is not going to the developer but instead the state or local government.  

there is absolutely no reason to pretend that they are doing this solely for the benefit of owners, although I admit the result is the same.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 22, 2017)

Brian, is there an organization with any clout (i.e.- enough potential $$$$$ to get noticed by legislators, etc.) that would be in a position to represent owner interests that may also go _against_ the interests of developers? I'm not aware of any, so unless such an entity exists, as ecwinch just said, ARDA-ROC may be the only realistic vehicle to be able to effectively lobby for any issues that impact owners - acknowledging that their scope will be limited to those issues where developer and owner interests align.


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## TUGBrian (Nov 22, 2017)

and thats fine with me, in that case they should remove the term "owners" from their name as they only represent them as a secondary result when their cause aligns with developer interests.

My only argument is how they collect their "donations" under the guise of representing owners rights....but that is pretty much a common theme in this industry today(e.g. misrepresenting something to convince an owner to fork over money).  Telling the truth isnt going to get 9 million owners to donate money year in and year out.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 22, 2017)

This discussion also brings to mind, "we have met the enemy etcetcetc."  There are many times on TUG that I disagree with what other owners want the timeshare companies to be doing, especially things that might cause a developer/manager to invoke its right to walk away from resorts where I own, so I wouldn't be in favor of ARDA-ROC or any other group actively campaigning for any and every idea that owners suggest.

For example, many MANY owners want the timeshare companies to be able to release ownership lists to any owners who ask for any reason.  I completely disagree with this yet fully appreciate that MVW's and the other timeshare companies' position against this, supported by privacy laws, is completely self-serving.  Apparently ARDA-ROC is working on a compromise measure of some sort although I haven't yet looked into the exact details.  What I do know is that I'd be against the release of my contact information to anyone except a legal entity who has been contracted for a class-type action and is provably knowledgeable about the contested issue.  Yes, I realize that would mean I'd effectively be more on the side of the companies than my fellow owners, being against any fishing in order to try to determine if such an action would be worth exploring, but that would be my stand.

That's just one example, there are more.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 22, 2017)

TUGBrian said:


> and thats fine with me, in that case they should remove the term "owners" from their name as they only represent them as a secondary result when their cause aligns with developer interests. ...



But it isn't ALWAYS the case that ARDA-ROC is in step with ARDA, an example being the ownership list issue I just posted.  There's no way that any timeshare company wants it to be made easier for owners to contact each other without the company being involved, yet ARDA-ROC is working on something that might allow just that!

Whether they can be successful in the face of opposition from ARDA on behalf of the industry companies is another question, probably not, but they appear to be at least trying.


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## BocaBoy (Nov 22, 2017)

TUGBrian said:


> indeed, and developers have no interest in additional fees for owners that arent going to themselves.  Rest assured if ARDAROC didnt even exist, ARDA itself or developer/industry lawers would be lobbying against these measures.


Perhaps, but I believe the fact that the coalition organization also represents OWNERS gives it more persuasive effect than if it were just the developers.


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## BocaBoy (Nov 22, 2017)

SueDonJ said:


> Recently, last year or the year before, MVW included in the MF's package a one-sheet introduction to the ARDA-ROC representative for MVW owners.  I don't remember all the details (and that piece of paper is now somewhere in all the moving boxes that haven't yet been unpacked) but I remember noting that he was neither a timeshare developer nor employed by a timeshare company.  I haven't gotten any snail-mail MF's packages yet so I don't know if something similar is included this year.


My recollection is that I have received this type of letter every year since ARDA-ROC was founded, which was rather early in my 30 years of Marriott timeshare ownership.  And you are right, the Marriott owners' representative to ARDA-ROC has no connection to Marriott other than the fact that they own one or more Marriott timeshare units.


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## WBP (Nov 23, 2017)

In my opinion, everything about the ARDA-ROC is wrong, and their (ARDA-ROC) business model is no different than that of some of the (ARDA) members - - prey on uninformed consumers (with deception).

In my opinion, ARDA-ROC is nothing more than a pig sporting lipstick.

Buyer Beware!


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## BocaBoy (Nov 23, 2017)

WJS said:


> In my opinion, everything about the ARDA-ROC is wrong, and their (ARDA-ROC) business model is no different than that of some of the (ARDA) members - - prey on uninformed consumers (with deception).
> 
> In my opinion, ARDA-ROC is nothing more than a pig sporting lipstick.
> 
> Buyer Beware!


May we have some evidence to back that up please?


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## WBP (Nov 23, 2017)

BocaBoy said:


> May we have some evidence to back that up please?



Sure. I think several points have been made in this thread by Brian and myself. I believe those points establish the basis for my statement. Anything more than that would take a Grad Student to do the manual labor, and I don't have one of those handy _[deleted.]_


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## ecwinch (Nov 23, 2017)

TUGBrian said:


> indeed, and developers have no interest in additional fees for owners that arent going to themselves.  Rest assured if ARDAROC didnt even exist, ARDA itself or developer/industry lawers would be lobbying against these measures.
> 
> ie, they dont want to make timeshare ownership more expensive than it already is, when that additional expense is not going to the developer but instead the state or local government.
> 
> there is absolutely no reason to pretend that they are doing this solely for the benefit of owners, although I admit the result is the same.



Agree, but I dont really care what their motives are. I would just rather not have to pay $140 a week in taxes on top of the property taxes the resort is already paying out of my dues.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 23, 2017)

So how many company representatives sit on the ARDA-ROC board? More than one? If so, then is it really an Owners Coalition? While I can agree that in some cases owner concerns coincide with developer concerns, but there are things that the ARDA-ROC should have opposed as they were very consumer unfriendly but the developers were pushing for them. ARDA-ROC wasn't there standing up for the owners because the owners don't control the board.

BTW, I suspect that from searching just a few of the names on the below list that the bulk of the ARDA-ROC board is made up of developer representatives.

http://www.ardaroc.org/roc/about/default.aspx?id=1354


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## BocaBoy (Nov 23, 2017)

WJS said:


> Sure. I think several points have been made in this thread by Brian and myself. I believe those points establish the basis for my statement. Anything more than that would take a Grad Student to do the manual labor, and I don't have one of those handy _[deleted.]_


I asked for evidence, not conclusory allegations.


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## WBP (Nov 24, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> So how many company representatives sit on the ARDA-ROC board? More than one? If so, then is it really an Owners Coalition? While I can agree that in some cases owner concerns coincide with developer concerns, but there are things that the ARDA-ROC should have opposed as they were very consumer unfriendly but the developers were pushing for them. ARDA-ROC wasn't there standing up for the owners because the owners don't control the board.
> 
> BTW, I suspect that from searching just a few of the names on the below list that the bulk of the ARDA-ROC board is made up of developer representatives.
> 
> http://www.ardaroc.org/roc/about/default.aspx?id=1354



Dean,

Great question.

I posted the very information that you ask about, in this thread, in August 2017. It is below:

Here is the latest membership list of the ARDA-ROC from their very own website. While it is difficult to distinguish the Industry Insider members, vs. non-industry or consumer members, one clue is the designation "RRP" that follows the names of 16 of the 24 members (2/3). RRP is an acronym for "Registered Resort Professional," a designation created by none other than the "ARDA" international Foundation. It is conceivable that other members of the ARDA-ROC Board are, in fact, Industry Insiders, who have not "earned" the RRP designation, in which the case, the ARDA-ROC Board would be more heavily weighted with Industry Insiders.

Yes, BocaBoy, is correct, we owners are asked to contribute to the ARDA-ROC. I maintain that you can change the wrapper, but the contents remain the same.

http://www.arda.org/arprrp/

NOTE: Robert Webb, Esq, RRP, a Partner in the law firm, Baker and Hostetler (and a member of the ARDA-ROC Board), writes here that he and his firm represents Diamond Resorts (I'd vigorously encourage you to read Attorney Webb's letter of January 16, 2015, referenced in the link, immediately below):

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/Diamond-Resorts-Lawsuit/Diamond Resort Complaint I.pdf


*ARDA-ROC Board*

*Ken McKelvey CPA, RRP*, ARDA-ROC Chairman, Defender Resorts, Inc.

*John Albert*, Marriott Vacations Worldwide

*John Burlingame, RRP*, Hyatt Vacation Ownership, Inc.

*Dale Curtin*, Vistana Signature Experiences
*
Janice Feirstein RRP*, Daily Management, Inc.

*Paul Goodrich*, SPM Resorts, Inc.

*Don Harrill RRP*, Holiday Inn Club Vacations

*Neil Hutchinson RRP*, Hilton Grand Vacations Company

*William Ingersoll RRP*, Holland & Knight

*Kimberly Tramontana RRP*, Breckenridge Grand Vacations

*Tom Nelson, *Holiday Inn Club Vacations

*Howard Nusbaum RRP*, ARDA

*Ron Naves*, Welk Resorts

*David Pontius RRP*, Bluegreen Resorts

*Geoff Richards*, Wyndham Vacation Ownership

*Chris Van Ruiten RRP*, Comerica Securities, Inc.

*Lisa Siegert-Free RRP*, Christie Lodge

*Sverre Thomassen*, Marriott Desert Springs Villas

*Robert Webb Esq., RRP*, Baker & Hostetler

*Stephen Weisz*, *RRP*, Marriott Vacations Worldwide

*Robert Miller, RRP,* Marriott Vacations Worldwide
*
Jon Fredericks, RRP,* Welk Resorts

*Mark Wang,* Hilton Grand Vacations

*Richard Muller, RRP,* VRI Resorts


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## TUGBrian (Nov 24, 2017)

truly representative of the average timeshare owner indeed =)

when the foxes guard the henhouse, there is no need for hens to worry aye?


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## dioxide45 (Nov 24, 2017)

WJS said:


> Here is the latest membership list of the ARDA-ROC from their very own website. While it is difficult to distinguish the Industry Insider members, vs. non-industry or consumer members, one clue is the designation "RRP" that follows the names of 16 of the 24 members (2/3). RRP is an acronym for "Registered Resort Professional," a designation created by none other than the "ARDA" international Foundation. It is conceivable that other members of the ARDA-ROC Board are, in fact, Industry Insiders, who have not "earned" the RRP designation, in which the case, the ARDA-ROC Board would be more heavily weighted with Industry Insiders.



I don't think the RRP means anything in determining a developer rep vs an owner independent rep.The three people from Marriott, two have the RRP after their name. All three hold very high level executive positions at MVW. There is no Marriott member on the board that is not an executive with MVW. Where is this owner representative that was mentioned earlier in this thread? Is there some other consulting reps that represent owner interest? Even still, they likely hold no voting power in determining which laws to lobby for or against. As Brian indicated, it is the fox watching the hen house.

*Stephen Weisz*, *RRP*, Marriott Vacations Worldwide President and CEO
*Robert Miller, RRP,* Marriott Vacations Worldwide Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer - International
*John Albert*, Marriott Vacations Worldwide Vice President of Operations Planning


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 24, 2017)

Don't be fooled, people.  Give them money, and you are supporting the developers' interests and not your own. 

State laws mandate whether owners of an HOA are allowed to have owner lists.  In Colorado, Hatrack (remember him from years back?), sought a lawyer and forced Twin Rivers' management company to give him a list of owners.  Now it's available to all owners.  And why is that important?  BECAUSE IT'S THE LAW.  Owners need to be able to communicate to one another.  Keeping owners' names secret is how a mangement company keeps total control over the owners.  ARDA-ROC didn't help him with lawyer costs.  Of course they wouldn't because they have no interest in the legacy resorts and their problems with aging owners.


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## WBP (Nov 24, 2017)

The ARDA-ROC has the best interest of timeshare owners at heart?

Read this, from an earlier post of mine:

NOTE: Robert Webb, Esq, RRP, a Partner in the law firm, Baker and Hostetler (and a member of the ARDA-ROC Board), writes here that he and his firm represents Diamond Resorts (I'd vigorously encourage you to read Attorney Webb's letter of January 16, 2015, referenced in the link, immediately below):

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/Diamond-Resorts-Lawsuit/Diamond Resort Complaint I.pdf

Draw your own conclusions.


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## RLS50 (Nov 24, 2017)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Don't be fooled, people.  Give them money, and you are supporting the developers' interests and not your own.
> 
> State laws mandate whether owners of an HOA are allowed to have owner lists.  In Colorado, Hatrack (remember him from years back?), sought a lawyer and forced Twin Rivers' management company to give him a list of owners.  Now it's available to all owners.  And why is that important?  BECAUSE IT'S THE LAW.  Owners need to be able to communicate to one another.  Keeping owners' names secret is how a mangement company keeps total control over the owners.  ARDA-ROC didn't help him with lawyer costs.  Of course they wouldn't because they have no interest in the legacy resorts and their problems with aging owners.


I absolutely agree with this.   The power of social media has already allowed owner groups to form and organize for better communication and owner education.   However, even those owner groups are limited in what they can do when Developer controlled HOA boards are allowed to keep owner contact information secret.   In almost every example across the country, the resorts that were able to effect meaningful change on their Developer controlled HOA boards somehow got access to the owner contact information, either in court or some other means.

The protection of privacy argument to me rings hollow.  Because we have no privacy now.  I know these companies sell our owner information to all kinds of other sales organizations.  Shortly after Diamond took over Gold Key we started getting inundated with sales calls from Diamond and other organizations.  Multiple times per week.  I suspect they all sell their data on us to some varying degree.

Being able keep the owner contact information secret is the Developers Great Wall of China that protects their Empires from the Mongol hordes (owner).   Release of owner rolls would not impact all Developers the same way.  A Company like Disney may hardly notice.  Marriott would feel some pressure, but largely have happy owners.   This information would probably create more problems for companies like Westgate, Diamond, Wyndham, etc.

I don't think all Developers are bad or evil.  Perfection is not and should not be the standard.  I consider myself a loyal Marriott customer / owner.  I like the Westin product.  I also know there are some looney owners out there, and I would never want some of their ideas implemented.   I am for more balance.   Right now there largely is none.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 24, 2017)

WJS said:


> The ARDA-ROC has the best interest of timeshare owners at heart?
> 
> Read this, from an earlier post of mine:
> 
> ...




I know nothing about the dispute this letter references, but needless to say, as a former Diamond owner, I do not have a great opinion of that company.

But having said that, in that letter, he is acting in his capacity as legal counsel for his client. I am sure in his role on the ARDA-ROC board he also would not take action contrary to the interests of his client either. But as I've said previously, just because an organization like ARDA-ROC doesn't stand on the owners' side on *every* issue, doesn't mean they can't represent us on *some * issues. As an analogy, I know of no political party or candidate that I agree with on every issue, but that doesn't stop me from supporting and contributing to the campaigns of parties or candidates whose positions align with my preferences more than their opponent's positions do. After reviewing the mission of ARDA-ROC, I can see some alignment with a few things that I think can be important to owners, so in the absence of another organization that better represents owner interests, I may at least reconsider supporting ARDA-ROC for the several owner issues that they do seem to champion.


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## TUGBrian (Nov 24, 2017)

there is a vast chasm of difference between their title and "mission statement", and what they actually do.  Reading that mission statement id contrubute to them too!  if it actually worked that way.

Just to summarize, so far we have had 0 examples of situations where arda-roc actually went to bat for owners against the interests of the industry and or developers.

0 useful campaigns against predatory sales tactics rampant among their own membership (and those sitting on the ARDA-ROC board)

0 useful campaigns against upfront fee resale scams (note that NUMEROUS upfront fee companies are ARDA members)

basically this outfit collects millions of dollars each year directly from owners pocketbooks either because the owners dont actually know its part of their annual dues (despite it being labeled as voluntary, and we all know the reason this is automatically deducted vs something owners would check a box to pay willingly)....or thru misleading owners into thinking its an outfit that has their best interests in mind.  Their entire pitch reads just like a timeshare sales presentation...all sizzle and no steak. (to coin a phrase from another owner).  

If you wish to contribute to them knowing full well that the only benefit you will reap are the ones where said interest also aligns with the developer interest...that is most certainly your right!  Just as it is to buy retail instead of resale! However until I see regular examples (or even any tangible examples) of ARDA-ROC actually going to bat for owners for the most common things that are a detriment to owners going on the past two or three decades...we will continue to suggest "speaking with your wallet" and not making the contribution.

heck feel free to write them and tell them youd be happy to contribute each year if they were to focus on the GIGANTIC issues that continue to give the industry a black eye year in and year out.  I think we all know however that those requests would fall on deaf ears.


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## Egret1986 (Nov 24, 2017)

TUGBrian said:


> there is a vast chasm of difference between their title and "mission statement", and what they actually do.  Reading that mission statement id contrubute to them too!  if it actually worked that way.
> 
> basically this outfit collects millions of dollars each year directly from owners pocketbooks either because the owners dont actually know its part of their annual dues (despite it being labeled as voluntary, and we all know the reason this is automatically deducted vs something owners would check a box to pay willingly)....or thru misleading owners into thinking its an outfit that has their best interests in mind.  Their entire pitch reads just like a timeshare sales presentation...all sizzle and no steak. (to coin a phrase from another owner).



As Brian states, their MO is to mislead owners in exactly the way that the timeshare weasels mislead during a timeshare sales presentation. If everything is above-board, there's no need to mislead.  I refuse to support this group with my wallet.  Unfortunately, I'm in the minority.


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## Egret1986 (Nov 24, 2017)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Don't be fooled, people.  Give them money, and you are supporting the developers' interests and not your own.
> 
> State laws mandate whether owners of an HOA are allowed to have owner lists.  In Colorado, Hatrack (remember him from years back?), sought a lawyer and forced Twin Rivers' management company to give him a list of owners.  Now it's available to all owners.  And why is that important?  BECAUSE IT'S THE LAW.  Owners need to be able to communicate to one another.  Keeping owners' names secret is how a mangement company keeps total control over the owners.  ARDA-ROC didn't help him with lawyer costs.  Of course they wouldn't because they have no interest in the legacy resorts and their problems with aging owners.



I have run across two issues in the last 60 days at resorts where I own and it could be beneficial to be able to have owner lists.  

At a recent HOA meeting it was suggested to me that if I could get additional owners to contact DRI regarding a carry-over policy from a previous developer that I could possibly enact a change to the policy.  The policy for collecting additional fees for making usage requests within 60 days of check-in and losing usage within 14 days of check-in is not a DRI-wide policy.  It is only at these former Gold Key resorts that were acquired by DRI where this policy is in effect (according to the DRI Board members).  

Another resort has recently decided to institute a policy charging RCI exchange guests a $125 housekeeping fee for ALL weeks and points exchanges.  This is ridiculous.  I know that I will no longer exchange back into this resort.  Amenity fees are one thing, but a housekeeping fee is ridiculous, especially one this high.  I believe this is an effort to bring in revenue so that maintenance fees can be kept unrealistically low.  I feel this is short-sighted and will be detrimental in the long run.  Also this resort never reaches a quorum for the HOA meetings.  The board never changes because there is never the ability to vote.


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## JIMinNC (Nov 24, 2017)

TUGBrian said:


> there is a vast chasm of difference between their title and "mission statement", and what they actually do.  Reading that mission statement id contrubute to them too!  if it actually worked that way.
> 
> Just to summarize, so far we have had 0 examples of situations where arda-roc actually went to bat for owners against the interests of the industry and or developers.
> 
> ...



Brian, I can't really disagree with anything you write here. I guess the only place where our thoughts might diverge slightly is that I'm giving at least some consideration to limited support of ARDA-ROC this year to support those handful of issues that they do work on that I agree with, mainly because there is no one else that I'm aware of that truly speaks for owners on other issues in this arena (except for TUG, of course!).

To that point, even though our numbers are very small compared to ARDA-ROC, has TUG ever given thought to creating the beginnings of some sort of PAC or other independent owner voice that could begin to focus on these broader issues that *do not* align with both owner and developer interests? While TUG represents only a tiny portion of the timeshare owner universe, I can't imagine there is a larger group of active, engaged owners anywhere. Throughout history, many movements for change that have challenged the status quo have started small and grown into forces for change. You could call it the Timeshare Owners' Group of America (TOGA). The group's get togethers could be called TOGA Parties!


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## TUGBrian (Nov 24, 2017)

The problem you run into is that its not "new laws" or "new legislation" that is required to combat the two major issues that face the majority of timeshare owners (resale scams, and fraudulent sales practices)...in fact many states already have existing laws that cover both of these.

As with most situations, its the actual enforcement of the laws that is the problem...however its easier to get people to quiet down and believe you are doing something when you spend alot of money and draft up some fancy new law or legislation that sounds like the answer to everyones problem....but without any actual enforcement wont make a lick of difference.

Take florida for instance, the timeshare capital of the world...with most major developers actually having their headquarters (or at least a major brick and mortar office) in orlando....fraudulent resale practices are already illegal in this state...and its illegal to mislead or lie to a consumer during a sales presentation, in fact florida has some pretty ridiculous consumer protection laws...but major developers get around this due to salespersons having a ridiculous turnover rate (likely wont even be working there anymore once any complaint (if it ever does) makes it high enough up the food chain to actually be investigated...those that actually do would have to have a good number of similar complaints from state residents all against the same resort or salesperson etc.

Even for those that are penalized by state AGs, the developer simply washes their hands by pointing out that they dont stand for such practices and would never knowingly allow their employees to lie or mislead customers intentionally and that they will be sure to address or modify their "training programs" to ensure something like that doesnt happen in the future...its the same rinse and repeat apology they have been using for decades.

Combined with the combination of victims feeling shamed or "Stupid" for falling for these schemes, or worse...being publicly shamed on social media or in the press for even buying a timeshare in the first place (just take a look at the comments section of any story about timeshare scams or victims)...it gives the impression that the victims somehow deserved what they got!  You have the result that these crimes are simply not very high on the list of important things to deal with for just about every law enforcement agency in the state outside the good folks at the DPBR...and there are only a few of them!  Its like trying to empty a swimming pool with a spoon.

If there were a way to actually make a difference, id be happy to hear it and support it to the best of my ability!  However at the end of the day, the most effective solution we have found to actually benefit owners, is educating them directly!  Once an owner is aware of the scams and how to spot them, they are far less likely to be a victim!

Believe me, if owners were directed to the TUG advice section or forums as a reward for their "7 dollar" voluntary donation to ARDA every year, they would get more for their money and the industry would change overnight =)


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## TUGBrian (Nov 24, 2017)

for those that wish to try a nice little test...contact your HOA's or board of directors...suggest they print the TUG how to sell guide, or the timeshare scams and fairy tales article, or heck, any article you wish..or even a useful snippet of any of the articles that gets the point across.

Id be Perfectly happy to provide a copy of these articles for use for any resort that wishes to actually try to warn and protect its owners from resale scammers and fraud, and just so noone can claim it would even benefit TUG, you dont even need to cite the website or link back to TUG at all (although it'd be nice, but if the goal is truly education then I dont mind one bit).

As a resort, there should be nothing wrong with making a proactive effort to educate your owners about the resale market and scams that every single owner will encounter when it comes time to sell.  It can be included in the yearly maint fee statement, or if the resort has an annual/biannual/whatever newsletter or pamphlet that goes out to its owners, so the cost is quite literally negligible.

Im always fascinated at the excuses that major developers and resorts have when asked why they dont do this on a regular basis and just continue to let their owners get ripped off every day...but it goes to show that owners interests (outside of keeping them paying on time) are simply not very high on the list of things that major resorts find important.

(I will say that over the years we have had a handful of independent resorts print TUG articles and or links to the forums to their members, but i could probably count all of them on my fingers and toes.)


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## JIMinNC (Nov 24, 2017)

I think TUG does an incredible job of educating owners and also people who've just bought at a developer presentation, have second thoughts, Google search, and find TUG after they get home.

I think the biggest education gap in the timeshare business is actually *before* people even go into the presentation. A developer presentation is the first introduction most people have to the concept and is why the developer sales tactics work so well. It would be great to have educated consumers going into the presentation, not having to get educated only after they've already bought and then have to go through rescission.

We were the typical uneducated potential buyer in the early-mid 1990s when we went to our first developer sales pitch (on the Big Island at the Bay Club). My wife was very tempted, but as a banker at the time, I was never one to make big $$ decisions after just a 90 minute session, so I wasn't willing to buy. Same thing happened on a return trip to Maui a couple years later when we heard the pitch for what is now Diamond's Point at Poipu on Kauai at their Maui sales center. I again quashed the idea.

That was about the time that I first found TUG, and found out about the resale market. By this time, I had become interested in a Maui ownership, but this was also when Marriott Maui Ocean Club was still just the Maui Marriott hotel and the Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort was just an undeveloped stretch of North Kaanapali Beach. The only timeshares on Maui at the time were the older, less appealing locations in Kahana and Kihei. Those were the only resale opportunities, but we had zero interest in them. In 1998, we heard about the just announced conversion of the Maui Embassy Suites hotel into the Embassy Vacation Resort. This was the first truly resort-like timeshare on Maui, and since less than 5% of the units there were 2BR, we had no idea how long it would take for resales to become readily available there. So while we ultimately decided to call the sales office and buy a 2BR there via phone and fax, thanks to TUG, we did so as an educated consumer who was unwilling to settle for the more downscale resale units in Kahana and Kihei, nor wait several years for EVR 2BR resales to show up in reasonable numbers. We enjoyed that property for 16 years and felt, despite paying developer $$, we got our value out of it before selling it in 2014 when we bought into the Marriott program. Coming full circle over 19 years after that first Maui purchase, we're now working to acquire a resale EOY week at Marriott Maui Ocean Club.

I just wish there was a way to educate more people *before* the developers get to them first. Only because I was a stubborn SOB did we avoid making an uninformed purchase decision back in the mid-1990s.


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## TUGBrian (Nov 24, 2017)

it is a fascinating dynamic when you realize how many people sign on to make such a large financial commitment, without doing even the most basic of research.

I honestly remember thinking years ago how the consumer market began to rely on the internet for reviews and research before most major purchases (computers, phones, tvs, cars, homes, hotels, etc).  It is amazing that timeshares still remains even in 2017 something folks dont do any sort of price shopping or research on until after buying.

and brings up yet another great item that would benefit all owners...significantly longer rescission periods than the ones that exist in each state.

there is a reason they are so short, and why sales presentations are scheduled (or at least attempted to be scheduled) as soon as possible into the vacation stay so as to eat as much as possible into the rescission period before the owner returns home knowing full well very VERY few folks will go back to their room and start researching...saving that process till long after they return home from vacation.

especially for a product that in most cases wont even get used by the owner for upwards of a full year after buying...an average of 7 days to cancel from the date of signing is absolutely absurd.

Id argue that the rescission period should exist until either the first/next maintenance fee bill is paid (although im sure the industry would find a way to bill that much sooner if it were based on this)...or until the owners first actual usage date comes up.

It would be extremely difficult for an owner to claim they didnt have adequate time to discover any lies/misrepresentations/mistakes/whatever they were sold if given a full year or next use of the product...unlike so many stories we hear of folks not discovering what they were sold isnt anything like what they bought when they first go to book their next vacation etc.


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## Fasttr (Nov 24, 2017)

TUGBrian said:


> it is a fascinating dynamic when you realize how many people sign on to make such a large financial commitment, without doing even the most basic of research.
> 
> I honestly remember thinking years ago how the consumer market began to rely on the internet for reviews and research before most major purchases (computers, phones, tvs, cars, homes, hotels, etc).  It is amazing that timeshares still remains even in 2017 something folks dont do any sort of price shopping or research on until after buying.


I believe that’s because most folks don’t intend to buy going into the presentation


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## Love2Cats (Nov 28, 2017)

Holiday Inn Club lists this $5.00 fee separately on their invoices and makes it clear it is voluntary. We have never paid it.


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## gerena (Nov 30, 2017)

Just got my maintenance fee statement (club dues) from Diamond.  There was no mention of ARDA fees on there, BUT when I compared the DUES part with the lower total fees section, there was a $7 difference.  I looked again and there was no mention of the extra $7 being for ARDA.  So I changed the amount at the bottom to reflect what was actually stated of the $904 .  Just be aware if you don't want to pay it.


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## BocaBoy (Nov 30, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think the RRP means anything in determining a developer rep vs an owner independent rep.The three people from Marriott, two have the RRP after their name. All three hold very high level executive positions at MVW. *There is no Marriott member on the board that is not an executive with MVW. Where is this owner representative that was mentioned earlier in this thread?*


 


From the list in post # 64:
*
Sverre Thomassen, Marriott Desert Springs Villas*

Not a Marriott executive.


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## AwayWeGo (Nov 30, 2017)

$5 voluntary TUG contribution, sure.  

$5 voluntary ARDA contribution, not so much. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## quikitikit (Dec 1, 2017)

Anytime there is a significant amount of money involved (buying a timeshare) people need to do their research BEFORE going to a presentation.  TUG has been really great with lots of great info.  Fortunately for me, a former coworker told me years ago (before I was even considering a purchase) about never buying from a developer and always buying resale to save lots of money.  Upon retiring in 2009, and still wanting to travel, I bought my first 2 timeshares when the economy was tanking and people were getting rid of their timeshares, Newport Coast, CA and Lake Tahoe Vacation Resort.  Marriott changed to the points system in 2010.  We finally enrolled Newport in 2014 so we could trade within the points system by buying the minimum points.  Great Info on TUG all for the benefit of owners or potential owners.  Then I learned how to rent points from other owners without paying the super high prices of adding more points!  What a win win!!!  People need to research about timeshares before going into the presentation.  Just like when you want to buy a car.  Doesn’t it make sense to research all about the car before purchasing?  Same with timeshares.  And thanks to TUG I haven’t paid that ARDA fee even though they claim it’s for the benefit of the owners.  Baloney!


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## TUGBrian (Dec 2, 2017)

ha, thats a great way to look at it!

saving $15 in arda contributions over 3 years makes your 3 year TUG membership only $5 dollars a year =)


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## Egret1986 (Dec 2, 2017)

quikitikit said:


> Anytime there is a significant amount of money involved (buying a timeshare) people need to do their research BEFORE going to a presentation.



Unfortunately, I think the average person going into a timeshare presentation thinks "I have no interest in buying a timeshare.  I'm going for the freebie only."  No need to do research when you think this way.  However, I think that obviously a lot of people get talked into it even when they had no intention of buying.  And instead of saying "no, I need to research this first", they go ahead and sign up for it.  The good news is when they ieave the presentation and start doing some research that they find TUG!  Tuggers won't let them down and give them the good advice to RESCIND and do more research before buying.  They will probably be told to buy RESALE only, but most TUGGERS will also tell them to take some time and do as much research as possible before pulling the trigger on any timeshare purchase.  GREAT ADVICE!  While a resale purchase, in most cases, is a much wiser purchase; research is a necessary requirement for determining if timeshare ownership is the best option for their vacation wants, needs and goals.  

TUG is a savior for many, but especially those that went into a sales presentation with no knowledge, signed off on a full-freight timeshare and then had the wisdom to do some research and got out before the rescission period ended!  

We bought from the developers in 1984 and 1986, but found TUG in 2003.  It has been one of the best "finds" in helping us get the most out of our timeshares and fulfilling our vacation wants, needs and goals!

Thank you, everyone on TUG!


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## dioxide45 (Dec 4, 2017)

BocaBoy said:


> From the list in post # 64:
> *
> Sverre Thomassen, Marriott Desert Springs Villas*
> 
> Not a Marriott executive.


Okay, so how was he selected, elected or picked? I certainly didn't help elect him to the ARDA-ROC (resort owners coalition) board. So  that means he was hand picked by MVW. Do you think he would really support owners and go against MVW when push came to shove? Given he is also one owner out of four Marriott representatives, and I am sure other developers have similar ratios, do you still think this is a board made up of Marriott owners 100% for ownership interests? Or could there be at least a little bit of bias on this board for the developer?


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## l0410z (Dec 7, 2017)

l0410z said:


> When I get solicited at home for donation by a non profit  organization,  the first questioned asked is what percent collected goes to administration costs. They are required by law to provide the accurate information. Non profit can mean large salaries and padded overhead.   I am amazed when I hear that administrative costs are more than 25%.  I get responses of costs being 85% of contributions to zero.  Can anyone tell me this information for ARDA-ROC.  In case not, I did send an email requesting it.



The email requesting percent collect going to administration costs  was still not answered.  I sent enough one today.  I know in NY, non profit solicitors are required to give this info if asked.  Not sure if this is a NY or IRS requirement.   Does anyone know if this is the same in  Florida.  Technically, MVCI is soliciting since MVCI is putting in the option within my MF invoice.  They might  be required to provide this info.  BTW, in NYS, a non profit CEO can't be paid more than 199,000.


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## BocaBoy (Dec 11, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> Okay, so how was he selected, elected or picked? I certainly didn't help elect him to the ARDA-ROC (resort owners coalition) board. So  that means he was hand picked by MVW. Do you think he would really support owners and go against MVW when push came to shove? Given he is also one owner out of four Marriott representatives, and I am sure other developers have similar ratios, do you still think this is a board made up of Marriott owners 100% for ownership interests? Or could there be at least a little bit of bias on this board for the developer?


Don't rag on me for just correcting your false statement.  Why are you trying to divert attention from the only point of my post?  You made a false statement, I corrected it, and you changed the attack to something else.  Why not just leave it alone or make your point without trying to denigrate the factual correction?


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## WBP (Dec 12, 2017)

_[Please remember the TUG Rules: Be Courteous.]_


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## dioxide45 (Dec 12, 2017)

BocaBoy said:


> Don't rag on me for just correcting your false statement.  Why are you trying to divert attention from the only point of my post?  You made a false statement, I corrected it, and you changed the attack to something else.  Why not just leave it alone or make your point without trying to denigrate the factual correction?


Fair enough. It does seem our charted history on this subject goes back a while and you seem rather sensitive to the subject. I found similar "butting of heads" back in 2011 when searching for Sverre Thomassen. He has served on the ARDA-ROC board at least back that far. What exactly is his relationship to MVW? WHile I agree he is not an executive with MVW, it doesn't change the fact he is still hand picked by them. How does he represent owners? I have not heard from him, or talked to anyone that ever has. He doesn't seem to reach out to owners to see what kind of issues we have with our ownership and how we should be represented within ROC? Even if he has any voting power, it is not much might against all the developer representatives on the ARDA-ROC board.

Generally a BOD of elected by the ones that pay in the fees, which is the owners. Do we know what percentage of ARDA-ROC contributions come from owners vs directly from the developers (though I am sure the money we pay in somehow is shown to come from the developers)? Just like all those donations you make at checkout. Is the ARDA-ROC contribution tax deductible for us? Generally it seems that the ARDA-ROC is really just the lobbying arm of ARDA, funded in great part by owners with IMO no real representation.


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## BocaBoy (Dec 12, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> Fair enough. It does seem our charted history on this subject goes back a while and you seem rather sensitive to the subject. I found similar "butting of heads" back in 2011 when searching for Sverre Thomassen. He has served on the ARDA-ROC board at least back that far. What exactly is his relationship to MVW? WHile I agree he is not an executive with MVW, it doesn't change the fact he is still hand picked by them. How does he represent owners? I have not heard from him, or talked to anyone that ever has. He doesn't seem to reach out to owners to see what kind of issues we have with our ownership and how we should be represented within ROC? Even if he has any voting power, it is not much might against all the developer representatives on the ARDA-ROC board.
> 
> Generally a BOD of elected by the ones that pay in the fees, which is the owners. Do we know what percentage of ARDA-ROC contributions come from owners vs directly from the developers (though I am sure the money we pay in somehow is shown to come from the developers)? Just like all those donations you make at checkout. Is the ARDA-ROC contribution tax deductible for us? Generally it seems that the ARDA-ROC is really just the lobbying arm of ARDA, funded in great part by owners with IMO no real representation.


Truce.  I am really not a strong advocate of ARDA-ROC, but neither am I against it.  I don't even contribute every year, but I believe we are better for having it.  I remember when it was founded early in my ownership (25-30 years ago) and I think it has done some good things.  My sensitivity is simply that so many people here assume it is a bad thing without any knowledge of what it is or what it actually does, and automatically assume developers are bad and owners good and have no common interests.  I do not buy that and the purpose of this group as I understand it is to advocate for those common interests.  It is analogous to saying that employers and workers have no common interests and I don't buy that either.


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## WBP (Dec 12, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> Fair enough. It does seem our charted history on this subject goes back a while and you seem rather sensitive to the subject. I found similar "butting of heads" back in 2011 when searching for Sverre Thomassen. He has served on the ARDA-ROC board at least back that far. What exactly is his relationship to MVW? WHile I agree he is not an executive with MVW, it doesn't change the fact he is still hand picked by them. How does he represent owners? I have not heard from him, or talked to anyone that ever has. He doesn't seem to reach out to owners to see what kind of issues we have with our ownership and how we should be represented within ROC? Even if he has any voting power, it is not much might against all the developer representatives on the ARDA-ROC board.
> 
> Generally a BOD of elected by the ones that pay in the fees, which is the owners. Do we know what percentage of ARDA-ROC contributions come from owners vs directly from the developers (though I am sure the money we pay in somehow is shown to come from the developers)? Just like all those donations you make at checkout. Is the ARDA-ROC contribution tax deductible for us? Generally it seems that the ARDA-ROC is really just the lobbying arm of ARDA, funded in great part by owners with IMO no real representation.



_[*Moderator Note, responding to deleted comment*: As you can see, comments that don't conform to the TUG Rules don't last at all.  In addition to the "Be Courteous" rule, it's also not permitted to comment on moderation in the public forums.  If you have a question about my moderation I am more than happy to respond to private messages, or you're free to send TUGBrian a message asking for his opinion. --> SueDonJ]_

Dioxide45, I agree entirely with you about BocaBoy's response.

I know Sverre Thomassen. He serves on the HOA Board at Marriott's Desert Springs Villas. I wish I could remember how long he's served on the DSV HOA Board, but I don't remember.  Related, I've made repeated requests of Marriott, that they disclose (on a slate of nominees) how long a Board Member has served on the board, so to identify long serving Board Members, but Marriott refuses to do that. My impression is that Marriott does not want to call attention to the HOA Board Members who have served forever on MVCI HOA Boards, or who serve on multiple Marriott HOA Boards. I would consider that information as one potential bellwether of the Board Members potential "coziness" with MVCI.

What relationship Mr. Thomassen has with Marriott, beyond being a Desert Springs Villas Owner and HOA Board Member, is not known to me. How Mr. Thomassen was selected to serve on the ARDA-ROC Board is beyond me, but my hopes for that selection process being objective, democratic, and fully disclosed, are low. I can say this: not once have I seen minutes of the DSVI or DSVII board meetings, that include a report by Mr. Thomassen to the HOA Board of his activities with/activities of the ARDA-ROC. Nor, for that matter, as a multiple week MVCI Owner, have I ever received a written report from Mr. Thomassen of the activities of, or his engagement as a member of the ARDA-ROC, nor, have I ever been queried by Mr. Thomassen about issues that I as a multiple developer resorts/multiple week MVCI Owner think should be entertained by the ARDA-ROC.

Dioxide45, I agree entirely of your assessment of the ARDA-ROC.


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## WBP (May 8, 2018)

For those who continue to question the merits of making a voluntary contribution to any entity associated with ARDA (e.g. ARDA-ROC), have a look at who ARDA has called upon to speak about "Fundamentals of Timeshare Sales" at ARDA's annual convention:

https://eventmobi.com/ardaworld2018/agenda/307047/1502210

https://eventmobi.com/api/events/23281/documents/download/dce60c18-114f-4b82-be90-540d611669d6.pdf/as/Fundamentals of Timeshare: Sales

http://www.arda.org/convention/schedule/


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## Iggyearl (May 8, 2018)

Thanks for sharing.  The presentation is quite interesting.  "Commissions - 17%."  "Provision for loan loss - 15%."  He hits the whole ball of wax.  

However, I didn't see any mention of "Diamond Clarity."  Probably no need to....


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## WBP (Oct 28, 2018)

WJS said:


> The stories of how ARDA, a trade association that represents the interests of timeshare developers, and alleges to represent the interests of timeshare owners, increase in number and magnitude every year. It is clear, ARDA'S most influential constituency are timeshare developers, who are one of the vehicles that ARDA uses to solicit contributions from timeshare owners, on the basis that ARDA is looking after the best interests of timeshare owners. If that is not ripe with conflict, suspect, and toxic odors, I don't know what is.
> 
> Social Media attention on Diamond's business practices, described by many using terms such as deception, fraud, theft, etc., seem to be on the increase, as is attention on ARDA's alleged blatant disregard of Diamonds' business integrity and ethics, and alleged violations by Diamond of ARDA's Code of Ethics. It is reported that ARDA has looked the other way, and intentionally avoided eye to eye contact with Diamond, and their business practices, for years. This phenomena is well described in a variety of medium, including direct customer accounts of the alleged behaviors.
> 
> ...




TIS THE SEASON - The maintenance fee invoices are soon to arrive in your mailbox/email box.

A friendly reminder why NOT TO SUPPORT ARDA-ROC. 

When you remit payment for your maintenance fee to Marriott Vacation Club, please consider NOT making a voluntary contribution to ARDA-ROC.


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## winger (Oct 29, 2018)

Egret1986 said:


> Not mandatory, but as you say, the DRI bills make it look that way.  If you only pay the maintenance fee and not the ARDA fee, then you show a balance due on your account unless you make the effort to call and have the fee taken off your account.  I'm sure the majority of folks just pay the full amount "due" most likely unknowingly or feeling it's not worth the hassle.  It's very deceptive, like many of their practices.   I'll make the effort to call DRI and have the "voluntary" fee taken off my account.  There ought to be a regulation that they can't do this.  Hey, ARDA or ARDA-ROC; want to help a timeshare owner out on this one?  Yeah, I didn't think so.


Just don't pay the $5, it falls off your DRI account automatically in time. I used to call to have it removed but eventually was told a call was not needed.


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## Sugarcubesea (Oct 29, 2018)

Please remember that for Vistana - SDO, it's automatically put on your bill and you have to ask to have it removed.  Each year I spend about 1 to 2 hours on the phone trying to get it removed.  Once I deducted the $5.00 from my balance that I paid and they said I had a late payment...UGH, this always pisses me off each year that I have to jump through hoops not to pay this $5.00


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## Fredflintstone (Oct 29, 2018)

Sugarcubesea said:


> Please remember that for Vistana - SDO, it's automatically put on your bill and you have to ask to have it removed.  Each year I spend about 1 to 2 hours on the phone trying to get it removed.  Once I deducted the $5.00 from my balance that I paid and they said I had a late payment...UGH, this always pisses me off each year that I have to jump through hoops not to pay this $5.00



They are doing that so you feel it’s too much of a pain to recover 5 dollars. Why don’t you write them certified letter and tell them you are not and never going to pay any ARDA donation. Should they add it to your bill in the future, you will return the bill unpaid and not pay until a new bill is issued with it removed. Give them notice that you will not pay any late fee either as it is their error should they try to add ARDA to your bill again.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45 (Oct 29, 2018)

Sugarcubesea said:


> Please remember that for Vistana - SDO, it's automatically put on your bill and you have to ask to have it removed.  Each year I spend about 1 to 2 hours on the phone trying to get it removed.  Once I deducted the $5.00 from my balance that I paid and they said I had a late payment...UGH, this always pisses me off each year that I have to jump through hoops not to pay this $5.00


I don't think the need to call is really necessary. Yes, it will show that you still owe $5 for a while, perhaps a few weeks. However, my experience is that it gets removed automatically at some point. I will have to pay more attention this year to see how it works exactly.


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## csalter2 (Oct 30, 2018)

winger said:


> Just don't pay the $5, it falls off your DRI account automatically in time. I used to call to have it removed but eventually was told a call was not needed.



However, while it is on your bill, it can and has at times delayed me from making a reservation because that ARDA balance. They want you to not notice then charge and they know most people don’t even know what ARDA is and figure ARDA is for the good of the owners and the timeshare they own.


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## WBP (Oct 30, 2018)

csalter2 said:


> However, while it is on your bill, it can and has at times delayed me from making a reservation because that ARDA balance. They want you to not notice then charge and they know most people don’t even know what ARDA is and figure ARDA is for the good of the owners and the timeshare they own.



They call this a "voluntary contribution?" It sure doesn't smell, look, or behave like a voluntary contribution to me.

To me, a true statement of the character of DRI and ARDA-ROC is evidenced in this one, of many, timeshare developer/management company and ARDA-ROC behaviors.

Reason WHY NOT TO MAKE AN ANNUAL CONTRIBUTION TO ARDA-ROC.


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## WBP (Oct 30, 2018)

From the ARDA - ROC website, the current ARDA - ROC Board Members (scroll to the bottom of this post, for additional information):

*ARDA-ROC Board*

*Ken McKelvey CPA, RRP*, ARDA-ROC Chairman, Defender Resorts, Inc.

*John Albert*, Marriott Vacations Worldwide

*Dale Curtin*, Vistana Signature Experiences 
*
Janice Feirstein RRP*, Daily Management, Inc.

*Ken Siegel,* Diamond Resorts

*Don Harrill RRP*, Holiday Inn Club Vacations 

*Neil Hutchinson RRP*, Hilton Grand Vacations Company 

*William Ingersoll RRP*, Holland & Knight 

*Kimberly Tramontana RRP*, Breckenridge Grand Vacations

*Tom Nelson, *Holiday Inn Club Vacations

*Howard Nusbaum RRP*, ARDA 

*Ron Naves*, Welk Resorts

*David Pontius RRP*, Bluegreen Resorts

*Geoff Richards*, Wyndham Destinations

*Chris Van Ruiten RRP*, Comerica Securities, Inc. 

*Ken Siegel,* Diamond Resorts International 

*Lisa Siegert-Free RRP*, Christie Lodge

*Sverre Thomassen*, Marriott Desert Springs Villas

*Robert Webb Esq., RRP*, Baker & Hostetler 

*Stephen Weisz*, *RRP*, Marriott Vacations Worldwide

*Robert Miller, RRP,* Marriott Vacations Worldwide
*
Jon Fredericks, RRP,* Welk Resorts

*Mark Wang,* Hilton Grand Vacations

*Richard Muller, RRP,* VRI Resorts

***** Lord knows how many of the ARDA - ROC Board Members are "timeshare industry insiders," allegedly, _"looking out for the best interests of timeshare owners." 
_
***** Information about the "RRP designation," and ARDA's criteria for obtaining the RRP designation, can be found here: http://www.arda.org/arprrp/


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## TimeShareReformNow (Jul 13, 2021)

WBP said:


> The stories of how ARDA, a trade association that represents the interests of timeshare developers, and alleges to represent the interests of timeshare owners, increase in number and magnitude every year. It is clear, ARDA'S most influential constituency are timeshare developers, who are one of the vehicles that ARDA uses to solicit contributions from timeshare owners, on the basis that ARDA is looking after the best interests of timeshare owners. If that is not ripe with conflict, suspect, and toxic odors, I don't know what is.
> 
> Social Media attention on Diamond's business practices, described by many using terms such as deception, fraud, theft, etc., seem to be on the increase, as is attention on ARDA's alleged blatant disregard of Diamonds' business integrity and ethics, and alleged violations by Diamond of ARDA's Code of Ethics. It is reported that ARDA has looked the other way, and intentionally avoided eye to eye contact with Diamond, and their business practices, for years. This phenomena is well described in a variety of medium, including direct customer accounts of the alleged behaviors.
> 
> ...


Are owners being charged ARDA fees in 2021?


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## bazzap (Jul 13, 2021)

C


TimeShareReformNow said:


> Are owners being charged ARDA fees in 2021?


Certainly not for non US owners.
We do though have an organisation in Europe - Euroc, which all of the MVC Owner Boards here have become members of




__





						Home
					





					euroc.org


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## SueDonJ (Jul 13, 2021)

TimeShareReformNow said:


> Are owners being charged ARDA fees in 2021?



This is the Marriott forum so specific to only Marriott, the ARDA-ROC* fees are included on the annual Marriott MF's invoices (for US residents of US resorts only?) but as a clearly-delineated opt-in, and not paying ARDA-ROC fees hasn't ever caused problems with MF's balances showing as unpaid.

*Note there is a difference between the developer/manager association ARDA - American Resort Development Association and the owner association ARDA-ROC - ARDA Resort Owners' Coalition, and there have been instances where the two do not share the same goals. Granted, it doesn't happen often, but it's still an important distinction.

I am NOT advocating that everyone pay the ARDA-ROC fees, only that you understand what you're being asked to contribute.


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## bazzap (Jul 13, 2021)

SueDonJ said:


> This is the Marriott forum so specific to only Marriott, the ARDA-ROC* fees are included on the annual Marriott MF's invoices but as a clearly-delineated opt-in, and not paying ARDA-ROC fees hasn't ever caused problems with MF's balances showing as unpaid.
> 
> *Note there is a difference between the developer/manager association ARDA - American Resort Development Association and the owner association ARDA-ROC - ARDA Resort Owners' Coalition, and there have been instances where the two do not share the same goals. Granted, it doesn't happen often, but it's still an important distinction.
> 
> I am NOT advocating that everyone pay the ARDA-ROC fees, only that you understand what you're being asked to contribute.


Perhaps just for US resident, US resort owners?
As a UK resident, US resort owner (Grand Chateau) the ARDA-ROC* fees have never been included on the annual Marriott MF's invoices even as opt-in.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 13, 2021)

bazzap said:


> Perhaps just for US resident, US resort owners?
> As a UK resident, US resort owner (Grand Chateau) the ARDA-ROC* fees have never been included on the annual Marriott MF's invoices even as opt-in.



You're probably right - I'll edit my post. Thanks!

While I'm here, are the Euro owners asked to contribute to EUROC in the same way US owners are asked to contribute to ARDA-ROC?


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 13, 2021)

I am hoping under the Marriott umbrella that we will not see that ARDA contribution added.  It's not an option on Vistana, it's in the total amount owed, and you have to subtract it from the total owed.  I think it's larceny.  Most people probably just pay it.


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## bazzap (Jul 13, 2021)

SueDonJ said:


> You're probably right - I'll edit my post. Thanks!
> 
> While I'm here, are the Euro owners asked to contribute to EUROC in the same way US owners are asked to contribute to ARDA-ROC?


Thank you and that is a very good question.
Euroc are far newer in the game than ARDA-ROC - MVC owner board discussions with them only took place in 2019.
I couldn’t readily find a definite answer to your question, checking back through my emails and owner documentation, but I believe that it is now automatically charged to owners of European resorts (no opt-in) but at just a few £s per resort ownership (not per week).
I will confirm this though.


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## RX8 (Jul 13, 2021)

In an earlier post on this thread (from many years ago) I mentioned a scam company that was a member of ARDA. That company was International Timeshare Exchange, an upfront fee company. I brought them to ARDA’s attention via email who responded that they “recently became aware of their business practices” yet it took months for them to be removed from ARDA’s member listing. In the meantime, they kept scamming people. That company is now out of business and the Florida  AG filled a lawsuit against them.



			http://www.myfloridalegal.com/EC_Edoc.nsf/0/7BD6B311B9C0C28D85257B250053B7E2/$file/International+Timeshare+Exchange+Complaint.pdf
		


I looked through the ARDA member listing and the only one that pops out is Bay Tree Solutions. This is an upfront fee marketing/listing company. I have said before that these companies toe the line on scamming. They provide a service which is to place the owner’s timeshare ad on their website. This keeps them from truly scamming people according to the law. However, collecting an advertising fee for something that will never sell is unethical. Apparently, that is “good enough” for ARDA as they happily collect the member fee from Bay Tree Solutions.

i looked through Bay Tree’s website. You would think that a timeshare advertising website would be mainly focused on selling the timeshares. As is typical of these advertising companies, Bay Tree’s home page is only devoted to soliciting owners for their upfront fee. Trying to search their website for timeshare’s is not as easy as it should be knowing that owner’s paid hundreds or thousands of dollars to advertise. Of course, everything is over priced. The CHEAPEST Westgate timeshare is $2,000. I didn’t look at them all but the most expense Westgate was $43,000. They have a bargain priced section but of those I looked at they were still thousands of dollars.

Their scam is no different than a company that promises to locate and send a real pink unicorn to those that pay their big upfront fee.  They know that pink unicorns don’t exist, just like Bay Tree knows their isn’t a buyer anywhere willing to pay $43,000 for a resale Westgate, but they collect the fee anyway.  Apparently, ARDA doesn’t care that this is what they represent.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 13, 2021)

bazzap said:


> Perhaps just for US resident, US resort owners?
> As a UK resident, US resort owner (Grand Chateau) the ARDA-ROC* fees have never been included on the annual Marriott MF's invoices even as opt-in.


The ARDA contribution is technically a contribution to a PAC (US Political Action Committee). Thus why it isn't an option to pay it for European and other non US timeshare resorts and owners. The PAC can't legally take foreign contributions. I beleive a timeshare system several years ago, may have been Westgate or Diamond, got into trouble for collecting the ARDA-ROC contribution from foreign owners.


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## Dean (Jul 13, 2021)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I am hoping under the Marriott umbrella that we will not see that ARDA contribution added.  It's not an option on Vistana, it's in the total amount owed, and you have to subtract it from the total owed.  I think it's larceny.  Most people probably just pay it.


It's still listed with MVC in such a way that it appears to be something one should do and you have to be proactive to remove it.  It sounds like it's even more imbedded with Vistana.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 13, 2021)

Dean said:


> It's still listed with MVC in such a way that it appears to be something one should do and you have to be proactive to remove it.  It sounds like it's even more imbedded with Vistana.


I don't know that you have to remove it on Marriott, you just don't put in the $5 amount in that box when you pay. On Vistana, it is more embedded because you have to subtract the amount from the total you pay.


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