# Owners update svv [alleged big changes]



## alohakevin (Nov 20, 2012)

We were told that starting in 2013 there will be no more resort specific deeded weeks sold. You will purchase a deeded week of a pool of properties, you will own little pieces of everything is the way i understood it. So from then on you will purchase points and maintenance fees will be based on how many points you have and not the individual properties. Apparently its similiar to marriott. There will be no more owners window for reservations with the new purchases everyone will have to book 8 months out or less

Questions
Will this drive the price of mandatory props up.

Seems like they are trying to eliminate resale mrkt

This seems like it will put more pressure on high demand props


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## DeniseM (Nov 20, 2012)

WOW!  

If this is true (I believe you, but I don't believe most sales people) this is a huge deal...

It won't eliminate the resale Mkt., because they cannot force people to enroll in the points program.  When Marriott rolled their points program out, you could enroll your deeded week(s) for a fee, or keep them as they are.

Current owners should still be able to reserve their home resort from 8-12 mos. out - I don't think they can take that away.

I am not sure how this will impact Staroptions - will you have to join the new points club to use your Staroptions?

But then - it may all be a big fat lie!


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## alohakevin (Nov 20, 2012)

They showed us charts of inventory they arent taking back on upgrades most silver and gold and a list of properties they are holding to go into the "club". There were page after page of them.


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## grgs (Nov 20, 2012)

alohakevin said:


> They showed us charts of inventory they aren't taking back on upgrades most silver and gold ...



They've had restrictions on what they would except for upgrades for quite a while now.

Glorian


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## DeniseM (Nov 20, 2012)

It could be true - since it's not feasible to build new resorts, SW may be re-inventing themselves to sell foreclosures and ROFR'd property as points, and collect fees with a new points program, but I would think that Elite Owners would be PI$$ED!

Also - remember that Marriott has the "skim" between points in and points out, which Starwood could incorporate and make even more $$$.

Of course, if this is true, rest assured that they are only doing it because it's in the BEST INTEREST of owners!  :hysterical:

I can't WAIT to hear the spin on this stuff!


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## scootr5 (Nov 20, 2012)

alohakevin said:


> We were told that starting in 2013 there will be no more resort specific deeded weeks sold. You will purchase a deeded week of a pool of properties, you will own little pieces of everything is the way i understood it. So from then on you will purchase points and maintenance fees will be based on how many points you have and not the individual properties. Apparently its similiar to marriott. There will be no more owners window for reservations with the new purchases everyone will have to book 8 months out or less
> 
> Questions
> Will this drive the price of mandatory props up.
> ...



Did they then try to sell you "points", or another week?


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## alohakevin (Nov 20, 2012)

scootr5 said:


> Did they then try to sell you "points", or another week?



Other wks. They said at end of year they will be done selling weeks and will sell points basically, and it will be more expensive. I asked about elite members and was told thats what they are going to focus on is getting people to the elite status and the program is going to be expanded. Part of the rational was they could invest less in developing properties while maintaining their numbers of reps. Not sure i understood that but was told it was a more cost effective model for svo


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## PamMo (Nov 20, 2012)

Starwood already has a "points" program (StarOptions) layered over deeds of owners who bought from the developer, and for all owners at the mandatory resorts. When you buy directly from Starwood at retail prices, you _always _get StarOptions, and you can book anywhere in the SVN system at 8 months. Sounds like the same old sales pitch to me ("Buy this great deal today and vacation in fantastic locations whenever you want!"). BUT, you won't get the home resort advantage.

If they are going to the Marriott model, getting everyone into SVN with StarOptions, means resale owners would be encouraged to opt in (and pay additional fees, of course), but Starwood can't force anyone to do that. I do see a tempting revenue stream for Starwood to finally offer resale owners the option to join SVN and get SO's. They can charge thousands of dollars to opt in the program, plus annual SVN fees - like Marriott did/does. If SVN membership with StarOptions is not transferable to a new owner on resale, Starwood could sell the option all over again. Sales will no doubt promise easy StarOption trades into St John, HRA, and Hawaii.


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## DeniseM (Nov 20, 2012)

I don't think this sounds like the current Staroption plan - if it's not BS, they're saying that Starwood is going to stop selling deeded units and just sell Staroptions - which is what Marriott has done.


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## tschwa2 (Nov 20, 2012)

I think it sounds kind of like the Marriott Destination Club and/or Club Wyndham.  They put a lot of the unsold inventory in a trust along with the foreclosed units, selective ROFR, and trade in/buy back units and sell points. They average the MF's/point so it is better than silver weeks but not as good as platinum weeks.  They can sell smaller packages to get new buyers into the program.  

Unlike Marriott who built the points overlay for current owners from scratch Starwood already has a points system and may not need to alienate or charge additional $ to those already in SVN.


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## DeniseM (Nov 20, 2012)

tschwa2 said:


> Unlike Marriott who built the points overlay for current owners from scratch Starwood already has a points system and may not need to alienate or charge additional $ to those already in SVN.



So maybe all new buyers would be restricted to Staroption trades at 8 mos. out - BUT they could give them Elite Status if they bought enough Staroptions to qualify.


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## jerseygirl (Nov 20, 2012)

I think it's true -- I've expected it for a while.  Huge revenue stream for Marriott, plus it enabled them to get rid of undesirable weeks in small increments.  Starwood will have do things differently than Marriott because Marriott only had deeded weeks (with some Florida owners participating in the Florida Club, which was similar to what the original Vistana owners had with trading privileges between SVR, VBC and PGA).  Starwood's situation is more complicated because they already have a dual system -- now they'll have a three-tiered system.  While they can't force current owners to participate, I think they could kill SVN as it is today and force all SVN members to choose between "not joining" (you own your week, period) or joining the new club.

It will be very interesting to see if the point values are proportionate to SOs.  IMO, some drastic changes are needed based on true demand vs. supply ... but they may be too chicken to tick off the people who paid big $$ for inflated SO values.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm ... let the fun begin!!


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## VacationForever (Nov 20, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> I don't think this sounds like the current Staroption plan - if it's not BS, they're saying that Starwood is going to stop selling deeded units and just sell Staroptions - which is what Marriott has done.



I don't own Marriott but the way the salesperson explained to me is that maintenance fees are pegged to the number of points that are purchased.  The resorts have a table that indicates how many points are needed to book the days/weeks.  This is a fairer system in that it eliminates using the same number of SO that comes from a low MF resort like WKV to "trade" into a high MF resort like St John or Harborside.  The Marriott DC system is too pricey for my taste, both to buy into it and the MF associated with the points.  I don't think I will jump into the "new" Starwood system if they were to go that route.  I don't think they can force current owners of deeded weeks into the "new" system.


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## LisaRex (Nov 20, 2012)

I've been saying for years that Starwood needs to tie SOs to MFs.  So, if this is true, I'd welcome it.  

I would not, however, welcome yet even more complexity to an already too-complex system.


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## DeniseM (Nov 20, 2012)

jerseygirl said:


> While they can't force current owners to participate, I think they could kill SVN as it is today and force all SVN members to choose between "not joining" (you own your week, period) or joining the new club.



In this scenario - wouldn't owners at the top resorts (WKORV, HRA, WSJ) tend not to join, and owners at the less prized resorts, be more likely to join?

I mean, if you own at WKORV, HRA, or WSJ, it doesn't make financial $en$e to trade anyway...


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## jerseygirl (Nov 20, 2012)

Unless they're taking deeds back and converting them to points (which an owner would have to agree to -- they can't force that on anyone), an owner of a week would still pay a "weeks-based" maintenance fee.  

With Marriott, "legacy owners" (weeks owners) had the option to join ... if they join, they have an annual option to convert to points (or use, rent, exchange with II or to hotel points).  In other words, everything is the same as it always was WITH a new option to join and use the internal Marriott club.  Owners who receive a lot of points for their weeks think it's a great deal.  Owners who do not receive a lot of points ... not so much.  But, all weeks owners, whether they join or not, still pay the same maintenance fees they always did (where an off season week pays the same as a prime week).

But, Marriott "trust/club owners (points owners)," only own points -- they have to use those points in the Marriott internal system, through II, or convert to hotel points.  They pay maintenance fees based on the number of points ... but it's not as simple as saying, "off season."  I think you can buy as little as 1500 points, which probably only gets you 3 nights in Aruba (example -- not an accurate number) or a winter week in Branson (again, an example -- not an accurate number).  So, they're paying less in maintenance fees because they own less points.  There is no concept of a seasonal ownership -- just a small number of points, a medium number of points, a large number of points, etc.

From reading the Marriott board, it seems a lot of people joined the club even though they only get a small number of points and can still "trade better" via II.  They joined, however, because there's an annual club fee that covers everything -- lockoff fees, II membership, II exchange fees, etc.  So, even though they don't use the internal club exchange feature, they can save money by joining the club.


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## alohakevin (Nov 20, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> I don't think this sounds like the current Staroption plan - if it's not BS, they're saying that Starwood is going to stop selling deeded units and just sell Staroptions - which is what Marriott has done.



Thats how it was explained (partially).That way they arent in a position to have explain why there is such a discrepency in price and mfs on one prop vs the other. Now everyone pays the same


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## jerseygirl (Nov 20, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> In this scenario - wouldn't owners at the top resorts (WKORV, HRA, WSJ) tend not to join, and owners at the less prized resorts, be more likely to join?
> 
> I mean, if you own at WKORV, HRA, or WSJ, it doesn't make financial $en$e to trade anyway...




In some ways, yes.  However, if they reward the top resorts with huge point allotments, they may join.

Example -- My WSJ Pool Villa (3-BR) is only worth 104,100 SOs -- not enough for a 2-BR in Hawaii.  I would let it sit empty before I'd give it to SVN, cuz I'm a spiteful biatch!    But, if Starwood gave me enough points to get 2 weeks in a 2-BR in Hawaii, I might do it.  Now, I don't think that's going to happen -- I'm using an exxagerated example!

If Starwood rolls out a system with honest point values, they'll adjust the point values we have today.  Today's SO values would become meaningless.  But, there's a cost to doing that ... Marriott sells most of its points to its existing owners, so Starwood is not going to want to tick off it's customer base so there could be no changes to the current point value, or perhaps just minor changes.   

Marriott was brave -- they drastically changed some theoretical point values (e.g., I think some "silver" weeks in their Palm Beach location became more valuable than some gold, maybe even platinum, weeks).  

A good example is summer Harborside.  If Starwood rolls out an honest system, those summer weeks will be worth more than the January weeks.  Only time will tell.

But, I think there's a really good chance that the SOs we have today will not be the same as the "new points" (they may not even be called SOs in the new world).


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## alohakevin (Nov 20, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> So maybe all new buyers would be restricted to Staroption trades at 8 mos. out - BUT they could give them Elite Status if they bought enough Staroptions to qualify.



Now your not selling props but benefits


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## DeniseM (Nov 20, 2012)

jerseygirl said:


> But, I think there's a really good chance that the SOs we have today will not be the same as the "new points" (they may not even be called SOs in the new world).



But what would they do about the current Elite Owners?


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## alohakevin (Nov 20, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> But what would they do about the current Elite Owners?



Supposedly the program is to be expanded with the intent of getting more people to elite points level. If they kept the "so" system there wouldnt be a change to existing right?


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## scootr5 (Nov 20, 2012)

alohakevin said:


> Other wks.



But why try to sell you another week if they just told you they were doing away with selling weeks? Seems like a poor sales strategy....


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## alohakevin (Nov 20, 2012)

On mandatory resorts is the ability to be part of svn written as part of the deed?


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## DeniseM (Nov 20, 2012)

alohakevin said:


> On mandatory resorts is the ability to be part of svn written as part of the deed?



No - for instance if the resort kicks out SVN as the management Co., you aren't in the SVN any more and all you have is a deeded week.  This actually happened to mandatory owners at Villas of Cave Creek when the resort left the SVN.

BUT - if you did that to Elite Owners, who have spent so much $$$ with Starwood, boy would they be furious!  I can't imagine that even Starwood would do that.


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## alohakevin (Nov 20, 2012)

scootr5 said:


> But why try to sell you another week if they just told you they were doing away with selling weeks? Seems like a poor sales strategy....



Supposedly the cost per option is going up compared to some of the lower priced deeded wks. If this is just a ploy it seems like a whopper even for them.


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## alohakevin (Nov 20, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> No - for instance if the resort kicks out SVN as the management Co., you aren't in the SVN any more and all you have is a deeded week.  This actually happened to mandatory owners at Villas of Cave Creek when the resort left the SVN.
> 
> BUT - if you did that to Elite Owners, who have spent so much $$$ with Starwood, boy would they be furious!  I can't imagine that even Starwood would do that.



So if they change to a pool system there is no advantage to owning deeded wks its all about the points.

How would you trade into II with no week to trade?

I dont understand how it would affect elite owners, you still would have to spend big money to get there


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## jerseygirl (Nov 20, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> But what would they do about the current Elite Owners?



I'm not sure.  I think it could go down one of two ways:

Plan A:

Just add a new class of owners -- Trust Members -- to the existing program.  If the trust owns 10% of the weeks at a particular resort, its members would be able to book 10% of the weeks at 12 months

No real changes to elite (trust members who buy XXX points would be added to elite and get the same benefits as the current elite members)

I personally don't think this is likely because one of the main goals of a program like this is to dump the off-season weeks.  No one would buy a small number of points (the value of an off season week) if they had to wait until the 90-day mark to book the popular resorts -- and the "minimum point buyers" won't have enough points for a full week at the popular resorts.

Plan B -- mirror Marriott's Plan (with some small differences, of course)

-- Scrap the existing SVN
-- Create a new SVN (let's call it SVN Plus)
-- Existing SVN members would be able to join SVN Plus for a small fee, or could decide not to join and would only have the ability to use their week (which is all that's truly guaranteed in the purchase agreement/CCRs/etc.)
-- Existing non-SVN owners would be able to join SVN Plus for a larger fee
-- New Trust Owners would be automatically members of SVN Plus
-- Under SVN Plus, they would have to allow "less than one-week" reservations way before the 90-day mark (see above for reason)
-- Non member "weeks owners" would always have the ability to book their weeks at the 12 month mark
-- Trust and/or club members would also have the ability to book at 12 months, but only to the extent their contributions to the club represent weeks at a particular resort

They could allow elite members to book at 13 months -- Marriott does, but, as I understand it, Marriott always had a clause in their deeds related to advance booking for multi-week owners.  If SVN Plus allows this, I think the inventory would have to be restricted to their representative ownership contribution.  Otherwise, I suspect Starwood can't take away inventory from current owners.  

Pure trust owners could end up owning 25% of WKORV someday (assumes aggressive ROFR, lots of foreclosures, perhaps an active buyback program).  The trust could be written in such a way that elite members could have advance booking rights -- but, I think it would only relate to that 25% of inventory.  

I think it's more likely that they will come up with non-inventory related perks for elite members (discounted reservations at 60-days, more SPs upon conversion, the ever-coveted platinum membership, etc.).  

A Plan C could look something like this:

Weeks owners have access at 12 months (if the trust owns 10% of the weeks, the trust would have access to 10% of the inventory at 12 months).  

Elite members have access at 8 months

All other members have access at 7 months.


Lots of options ........ like I said, let the fun begin!


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## DeniseM (Nov 20, 2012)

alohakevin said:


> So if they change to a pool system there is no advantage to owning deeded wks its all about the points.
> 
> How would you trade into II with no week to trade?



They cannot force you to join the points system - you would always own your deeded week unless you joined the new system.   Also, see jerseygirl's post above about how Marriott handles is. 



> I dont understand how it would affect elite owners, you still would have to spend big money to get there



Elite Owners who have already paid big bucks to reach Elite Status in the SVN would not be happy if the SVN went away.  Especially if they felt that others were getting Elite Status easier through purchasing points, or if they feel that adding additional Elite Members erodes the perceived value of being an Elite Member.  Or if they have to pay big bucks to retain their Elite Status.


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## jkrischt (Nov 20, 2012)

I believe there is a good chance of this happening and I've been preparing myself.  About 2 years ago, I went on a presentation and the person selling to me hinted me towards this.  He was one of the salesman who didn't throw a bunch of crap at me, so I (kind of) believed him.  I brought up the change with Marriott because I heard it on TUG and he basically said Starwood might change follow.  Almost like they were going to feel out their approach and do it themselves.  I honestly felt like maybe he knew something and I usually never trust those salesman.

Anyways...what is going to happen to resale owners?  If there is a change, I assume they will be invited in (for a fee of course).  I am in the middle of changing around my units...do I upgrade to something that might be worth more now?

What about that survey they sent out to some of us a few months ago?  Asking us about what we would want to change?  If we would like to use our points on other things like cruise and other travel things (sound like Wyndham's point system?)  If we would entertain buying in different ways?

I will say this.  As shady as the timeshare industry has been, there is something about Starwood that seems better to me.  If something does come up, I hope they respect the elite memebers and the ones who spent way too much money on development purchases...

Brad


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## alohakevin (Nov 20, 2012)

I asked how the new system would work with the 12/mo reservation because since everyone owns everything there is no more home resort. Was told everyone will have to book at 8 months. 

Doesnt this put more demand on the peak times since now everyone has equal opportunity to book. Part of the advantage of owning a week is knowing you can go there when you want


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## Ken555 (Nov 20, 2012)

Some days I think these rumors get started just so Starwood has a laugh at all of us who post our thoughts on theoretical changes based on the word of a...wait for it...sales rep.


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## jerseygirl (Nov 20, 2012)

jkrischt said:


> I am in the middle of changing around my units...do I upgrade to something that might be worth more now?



That's the $64000 question.  If you believe they'll keep the points the same (or proportional), then you would want to buy a platinum 2-BR SDO or WLR.  However, if you're like me, and hopeful that they'll have the guts to correct out-of-whack SO values, then these are not good buys.

Personally, I wouldn't buy anything based on what Starwood might or might not do.  Buy something that you would personally use, or something that is universally popular (Hawaii in the summer, Harborside in the summer).  Then, no matter what Starwood does, you'll have something of value (for use, rental potential, or for trading power).  Relying on Starwood to be fair in assessing values (no matter which side you're on from a fairness perspective), could be a losing proposition.

Re the survey -- I think something this big had to have been in the works LONG before the survey.  They'll just use the survey to promote the changes (90% of owners told us they wanted the ability to book shorter vacations -- so, now you can book 3 days at the 10 month mark -- which, coincidentally, will be equal to the minimum point purchase -- which is really a trust full of mainly undesirable weeks!).  Marketing, it's a wonderful thing!


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## DeniseM (Nov 20, 2012)

alohakevin said:


> I asked how the new system would work with the 12/mo reservation because since everyone owns everything there is no more home resort. Was told everyone will have to book at 8 months.



Except, if you don't convert to points, you will STILL have a home resort - a deed, is a deed - in theory, they can't take that away from you.  I find it hard to believe that they could require weeks owners who don't convert to points, to book at 8 mos. with the points owners.


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## jerseygirl (Nov 20, 2012)

alohakevin said:


> I asked how the new system would work with the 12/mo reservation because since everyone owns everything there is no more home resort. Was told everyone will have to book at 8 months.
> 
> Doesnt this put more demand on the peak times since now everyone has equal opportunity to book. Part of the advantage of owning a week is knowing you can go there when you want



That's VERY misleading.  There are already "deeded weeks owners" of the vast majority of popular weeks.  These folks will always have the ability to book their weeks at the 12 month mark, unless they willingly give up that right for something that would have to be perceived to be a better value.  And, as I stated above, if a trust owns 10% or 20% of a resort/season, the underlying trust owners would have the same right to book 10% or 20% of the weeks at that resort at the 12 month mark (of course, the trust could grab and hold until the 8 month mark, but it's still the same access at the 12 month mark).


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## jerseygirl (Nov 20, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> Some days I think these rumors get started just so Starwood has a laugh at all of us who post our thoughts on theoretical changes based on the word of a...wait for it...sales rep.



Could be ... but I suspect they've been working on since Marriott came out with the DC ... or at least since Marriott's SPINCO was successfully completed.  They'd be fools not to do something like this.


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## jkrischt (Nov 20, 2012)

jerseygirl said:


> Personally, I wouldn't buy anything based on what Starwood might or might not do.  Buy something that you would personally use, or something that is universally popular (Hawaii in the summer, Harborside in the summer).  Then, no matter what Starwood does, you'll have something of value (for use, rental potential, or for trading power).  Relying on Starwood to be fair in assessing values (no matter which side you're on from a fairness perspective), could be a losing proposition.
> 
> Re the survey -- I think something this big had to have been in the works LONG before the survey.  They'll just use the survey to promote the changes (90% of owners told us they wanted the ability to book shorter vacations -- so, now you can book 3 days at the 10 month mark -- which, coincidentally, will be equal to the minimum point purchase -- which is really a trust full of mainly undesirable weeks!).  Marketing, it's a wonderful thing!



It's funny you say this.  It's the exact reason I'm unloading my SVR units and switching to something else.  I felt to uneasy owning some place that I couldn't rent, sell easily in the future, or just wanted to go to for the maint fees I was paying.

As for your survey comments, I agree 100%.  All other systems seem to to be more flexible with stays less than a week.  People like that a lot.  Why not move in that direction?  Heck...I don't want to go anywhere off-season for a week...but maybe a long weekend might be nice.  

Brad


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## jarta (Nov 20, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> No - for instance if the resort kicks out SVN as the management Co., you aren't in the SVN any more and all you have is a deeded week.  This actually happened to mandatory owners at Villas of Cave Creek when the resort left the SVN.
> 
> BUT - if you did that to Elite Owners, who have spent so much $$$ with Starwood, boy would they be furious!  I can't imagine that even Starwood would do that.



I don't believe there were mandatory owners at VCC.  SVN membership did not pass when a VCC week was sold.

 There were owners whose weeks were in the SVN (the Club) and, after VCC and Starwood parted company, those weeks were no longer in the Club.

I'll just take a wait and see attitude until I get some sort of official notice.  However, if my Elite status was altered so that I could not convert StarOptions to Starpoints, I would probably be unhappy.

I agree that owners at WKORV, HRA and WSJ would be reluctant to turn in weeks and join a trust pool.  But, again, what matters is the entire package.   Salty


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## PamMo (Nov 20, 2012)

Interesting discussion. Along with our Starwood resorts, we own a few Marriotts (traditional deeded weeks and DC points). I can't figure out how or why Starwood would want to maintain three separate systems for usage - deeded owners using their weeks or trading in II or RCI, StarOption trades, and this new point system? MF's for weeks at each resort are set. A silver week is not any cheaper than a platinum week. Starwood will have to set annual dues to cover MF's, so the new fees will have to average the cost of weeks put into any new program. They can't arbitrarily alter MF's to make the point system cheaper for new buyers, unless they want to subsidize it with corporate funds. So, how would points compare to StarOption values? Will they have separate buckets of inventory available to different owners?

I'm feeling a bit of deja vu - this is like the Marriott board when news on the DC program leaked out...


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## DeniseM (Nov 20, 2012)

PamMo said:


> I can't figure out how or why Starwood would want to maintain three separate systems for usage



Because creating a "true points" system and marketing it is cheaper and more feasible than building new resorts to sell:

1)  They can sell points to new buyers - including smaller points pkgs. to an entry level market.

2)  They can charge existing owners a fee to join the points system (both mandatory and voluntary owners)

3)  They can make money off the "skim" like Marriott does

4)  They see that it's working for Marriott

We know that they will take every advantage they can, and put some crazy spin on it, but if they go too far, they will alienate owners - especially Elite Owners who have a lot invested in the current system.


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## VacationForever (Nov 20, 2012)

I do not know the Marriott system enough, when Marriott implemented their DC system can a deeded owner "give" their week to DC and pay $ in exchange for DC points?  (I can see owners of undesirable seasons or resorts wanting to do so.)


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## fluke (Nov 20, 2012)

sptung said:


> I do not know the Marriott system enough, when Marriott implemented their DC system can a deeded owner "give" their week to DC and pay $ in exchange for DC points?  (I can see owners of undesirable seasons or resorts wanting to do so.)



Marriott required an initial fee (about double for resale owners) and began charging a yearly membership fee.  The units were alotted a certain number of points and every year you have the option to reserve the deeded week you own or "elect" points. If Starwood was to do something along this line they could raise cash immediately with an initiation fee and perhaps double the SVN fee.

Marriott sold the Destinations Club as an alternative to exchanging through II as there was a large proportion of owners frustrated with II.  Polls of owners showed a large proprtion were very dissatified with II.

Marriott also used the point system to introduce tiers of memberships - probably copying Starwood's elite system.


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## jerseygirl (Nov 20, 2012)

sptung said:


> I do not know the Marriott system enough, when Marriott implemented their DC system can a deeded owner "give" their week to DC and pay $ in exchange for DC points?  (I can see owners of undesirable seasons or resorts wanting to do so.)



Weeks owners keep their deeds.  If they join the club (DC), they have the option each year to convert weeks to DC points for internal trades , or to hotel points (all weeks do not have the same ability to trade for hotel points -  some can convert every year, others can convert EOY - dont know details).  Or, the owner/DC member can keep his her WEEK and use, rent it, or trade in II.  So, joining the club doesn't remove any prior rights ... It just adds a new option.

Some Marriott weeks qualify for ACs with II ... But may not have been allotted enough points for two weeks in the DC.  Owners of these weeks are probably still trading in II.  Other weeks were given generous point values ... And, for these owners, they may get more bang for their buck by converting to DC points.  It's totally dependent on what you own and where you want to go.  For some, II is a better option, for some, the DC is a better option.  But, a weeks owner can join the DC for financial reasons (free II membership, free Marriott-to-Marriott trades, etc.) but not be obligated to trade through the DC.

I suspect the same will be true for Starwood ... Some will continue to prefer II, some will prefer the club.  There will be winners and losers, happy people and unhappy people.  But, like today, if an owner isn't satisfied with their point value, they can choose not to play.  

I don't see any downside ... Unless perhaps certain resorts are reassigned proportionally lower point values in a new program.  Those owners are likely to be unhappy.


Edit:  Sorry, repeated some of what Fluke said.  I think we were typing at the same time.


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## fluke (Nov 20, 2012)

alohakevin said:


> So if they change to a pool system there is no advantage to owning deeded wks its all about the points.
> 
> *How would you trade into II with no week to trade?*
> 
> I dont understand how it would affect elite owners, you still would have to spend big money to get there



Several systems already use points to trade into II.  X amount of points gives you y amount of bedrooms during y season (TDI).  SO the better the season and the more bedrooms the more points for the trade.


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## jerseygirl (Nov 20, 2012)

Doesn't Marriott have a really complicated point schedule for trading "pure DC points" in II?  It's based on TDI, right?  When they rolled out the program, I remember thinking that part was over-complicated.  Hyatt, for example, has a simple formula along the lines of what you described above.

1-BR red requires X points
1-BR yellow requires Y points
Etc.

With Marriott, it seems like you'd constantly have to be looking up TDI values to make plans, whereas "Red, Yellow, Green" seasons (Platinum, Gold, Silver - whatever you want to call them) is a pretty simple concept.


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## VacationForever (Nov 20, 2012)

Thank you Fluke and Jerseygirl.


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## alohakevin (Nov 20, 2012)

fluke said:


> Several systems already use points to trade into II.  X amount of points gives you y amount of bedrooms during y season (TDI).  SO the better the season and the more bedrooms the more points for the trade.



The rep was really pushing " nights and flights" program as a alternative to II also.

I also asked about retroing in future and was told that will come to an end.


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## dlca1 (Nov 21, 2012)

Just a thought-- maybe this helps explain why Starwood has been so aggressive with ROFR on WKORV/N?


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## VacationForever (Nov 21, 2012)

dlca1 said:


> Just a thought-- maybe this helps explain why Starwood has been so aggressive with ROFR on WKORV/N?



Good point... and last I saw from Fred for WMH at 7K.  Need inventory for their new "trust" system?


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## AbelowDS (Nov 21, 2012)

Not having been into timeshares for all that long (less than a year ), this is a little confusing to me.  I do understand what everyone is saying above about (a) how this would likely hurt Elite owners, (b) would affect future purchases, (c) would impact SVN, etc.

But what would this mean to the resale market?

And how would this affect owners (like me) who bought all his timeshares on the resale market?  For me, Elite, SVN, mandatory, don't apply.  

And, why would someone give up owning something tangible for points?

Thanks


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## jerseygirl (Nov 21, 2012)

AbelowDS said:


> Not having been into timeshares for all that long (less than a year ), this is a little confusing to me.  I do understand what everyone is saying above about (a) how this would likely hurt Elite owners, (b) would affect future purchases, (c) would impact SVN, etc.
> 
> But what would this mean to the resale market?
> 
> ...



I don't see any reason why the current elite benefits would need to change under a Marriott-like system.  Yes, a new system could bring more elite owners in, but that's a very expensive proposition with Marriott, so I doubt there would be an immediate Impact.

No one gives up their tangible deed ... Only new buyers buy pure points.

If, they follow Marriott's path, it could really hurt the resale market for mandatory resorts that people buy primarily for SO use (WKV, SVV).  All resales are equal under Marriott's plan.  I'm not sure a resale owners can even join unless they buy something from Marriott.  Owners as of a certain date were allowed in (for a premium buy in fee), but after that, they're not allowed in ... Which makes the value of a resort dependent on its desirability only (not inflated by trading capabilities).


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## LisaRex (Nov 21, 2012)

How did Marriott treat different views for those resorts that have OF, OV, and IV distinctions?  I paid quite a bit more for my upgraded view, as did Marriott owners.  Are they given more "points" than others who own lesser views?


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## alohakevin (Nov 21, 2012)

dlca1 said:


> Just a thought-- maybe this helps explain why Starwood has been so aggressive with ROFR on WKORV/N?



I asked the rep specifically if they were actively pursuing rofr on hawaii to increase inventory in the club and was told yes.


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## alohakevin (Nov 21, 2012)

Wouldnt there also be a premium on mandatory resorts in order to get them in the club and off the resale market. Giving them more control over inventory


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## Twinkstarr (Nov 21, 2012)

LisaRex said:


> How did Marriott treat different views for those resorts that have OF, OV, and IV distinctions?  I paid quite a bit more for my upgraded view, as did Marriott owners.  Are they given more "points" than others who own lesser views?



Yes, you get points based on your view.


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## jkrischt (Nov 21, 2012)

I thought about this over the night (you all dream about timeshares too) and I think if something happens there may not be much change.

The OP says that they heard the new points owners can start booking at 8 months.  So that feeds right in to the existing system well.  Deeded owners follow the same rules and the new owners can just book at 8 months.  Elite status stays the same.  You can buy enough points the new way to get to the next level now.  Seems straight forward...

And that whole predictive model they implemented.  It fits perfectly in this new strategy now.  Since you will have points only members, you need to make sure to set aside weeks just for SVN through out the year equally.

Maybe they add the ability for shorter trips like everyone else does as soon as 8 months now?  Use your StarOptions to book other things like cruises?  They would need to stir the pot a little bit because booking only 8 months in advance can be restrictive.   I like to plan a little more in advance especially for use miles to book flights.

Brad


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## PamMo (Nov 21, 2012)

If you think Starwood is going to have something similar to Marriott, you might be interested in perusing the TUG Marriott forum stickies http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126709 

One of the really interesting links is to the points usage chart -  http://www.my-vacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/enrollment_legal_docs/points_charts.pdf  You can see how resort season, size and view of unit changes the point value. No surprise that deeded owners of big Maui view units came out with loads of points (like StarOption values for Hawaiian resorts), but other owners weren't happy with their point allotment (summer in Hilton Head comes to mind). If Starwood does the same, I'd expect value adjustment up and down for some weeks in SVN - as Jerseygirl mentioned.

The nice thing about points is the transparency.


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## nokaoi9 (Nov 21, 2012)

I agree with many of the posts, it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

As an owner of a Marriott resale, I still think their points program is completely screwed up.

I own at Ko Olina in Hawaii and paid the $1500 to have the option to enroll my week in the destination club point program.  As a result, I have the option annually to use my 2BR in the traditional sense, or can choose to convert my week to points.  If I convert my week to points, I get 4025 points.  To stay at my home resort ranges from 4050 (lowest season) to 4800 (highest season, excluding Christmas and New Year's).

Marriott is using scare tactics, telling prospective buyers that if they buy resale weeks instead of points, they will not be able to trade into future developments as they will all be points based.  

Here is what I have a hard time making sense of.  Assuming a new couple wants to travel to Hawaii once a year, or even once every year.  A one bedroom mountain view unit is between 2700-3200 points for the week.  Based on the current pricing per point (I believe it is still around $13/per point), the couple would probably want 1500-2000 points.  This would be an initial investment of $19,000-$26,000, plus maintenance fees (currently at $0.40 per point), and the mandatory membership in Interval International for Marriott owners ($165 per year).  Excluding your initial investment of $19,000-$26,000, your costs for a 1BR unit every other year in the points program would still cost you $1500 just in maintenance fees and Interval membership fees.  

It would make more financial sense (in my opinion) to buy resale in a case like this, or simply rent from an existing owner.  I would gladly rent one of my week's out for under $1500 a year if someone is interested.

I definitely look forward to seeing how this plays out with Starwood.  I think there could definitely be some changes to the program, but I think a lot will still work the way it always has, at least that is what is happening with Marriott.


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## VacationForever (Nov 21, 2012)

nokaoi9 said:


> Marriott is using scare tactics, telling prospective buyers that if they buy resale weeks instead of points, they will not be able to trade into future developments as they will all be points based.



I don't see Starwood having a roadmap to build or add anymore timeshare so that scare tactic is not going to work.  Although at one of the owners' updates that I attended, the salesperson claimed that Starwood is looking into acquiring existing properties to add to their portfolio.


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## GregT (Nov 21, 2012)

Interesting thread and interesting speculation.    Similar to comments made earlier, I think it would be possible for Starwood to place unsold weeks into a Trust and sell points against that Trust.

Potential usage (all speculation on my part):

1) Months 10-12, StarTrust (my word) point owners can reserve against weeks that are in the Trust.
2) Months 8-10, Elite StarTrust point owners can make partial week reservations against the weeks that are in the Trust
3) At Month 8 (maybe Month 7 to not conflict with StarOption owners?), StarTrust point owners can exchange their StarTrust points for StarOptions at a 1:1 ratio, and book inventory with StarOptions
4) This in turn loads more inventory (the unreserved StarTrust weeks) that are available to holders of StarOptions, but brings in more competition for the StarOptions user 
5) Resale owners of Voluntary Resorts are given the option to join SVN and make their Resale Week eligible.  This membership lapses when the week is re-sold, but the future owner can re-subscribe.

It is an interesting theory -- what I have described above would be a hybrid of Marriott's system with the existing SVN.   

One of the (many) flaws of what I've described here is that it doesn't provide an incentive to the WSJ/HRA/WKORV owner to participate in the new point system -- they can presumably participate in the current system and many likely do not for the reasons that JerseyGirl articulated.    Perhaps Elite Owners (of which many WSJ/HRA/WKORV owners are) would get a sweetener in the form of a different exchange rate in order to allow their weeks to participate (kind of like an AC from II).

The "winners" in the Marriott system were the existing owners of Resale Weeks who were able to join the new system, even though they are being skimmed (and I still think its terrible to skim your loyal owners).  Marriott shut the door on future Resale Weeks purchasers, and it is possible Starwood would do the same.

Again -- this is all my speculation and there is no basis for my opinion here.   

Interesting stuff....thanks very much.

Best,

Greg


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## PamMo (Nov 21, 2012)

Greg, I'm glad you posted. You provided a lot of good information and insight in the Marriott threads regarding conversion to DC points system, and I was hoping you would contribute to the discussion here.

It will definitely be interesting to see what changes are in store for us. I am often bemused at developers' great "enhancements" for owners.


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## toddvb20 (Nov 21, 2012)

If this is true, is it a good time to buy resale now or hold out until it's official?


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## scootr5 (Nov 21, 2012)

toddvb20 said:


> If this is true, is it a good time to buy resale now or hold out until it's official?



Well, if they were going to extend something to resale owners it would be probably be owners of record as of a certain date.

That being said, I don't know that I would let a single reported conversation with a salesman influence your purchase decision.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 21, 2012)

This is actually pretty scary for me.  I don't know how I would feel about converting my weeks to points in any system.  I went to a sales presentation at Vistana a few weeks ago, and they wanted thousands to get us to trade our SBP 2 bedroom for a Vistana Villages week with Staroptions.  It was very expensive.  I told the nice woman how cheap those are on eBay, and she let us go.  

I couldn't afford a conversion of several weeks into this new system, unless they allow us to buy in very cheaply, and even so, who knows if it would be worthy of laying out even $1,500 per week to do it.  Most of my weeks were free.


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 21, 2012)

scootr5 said:


> That being said, I don't know that I would let a single reported conversation with a salesman influence your purchase decision.



^^^^this^^^^

Seriously... This whole thread is based on what a SVO salesperson said...
Reminds me of a famous quote by PT Barnum.

Is betting allowed on TUG?  I am putting my money on BS.


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## jarta (Nov 21, 2012)

DavidnRobin said:


> ^^^^this^^^^
> 
> Seriously... This whole thread is based on what a SVO salesperson said...
> Reminds me of a famous quote by PT Barnum.
> ...



Which one?  http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/201036.P_T_Barnum

I prefer Chicken Little.  lol!   Salty


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## SueDonJ (Nov 21, 2012)

Wow.

It wouldn't be surprising if SW eventually goes to a Points system because the other timeshare companies are proving that it's financially beneficial to go that route.  Have there been rumors about a Points system before or is this the first you're hearing?  For what it's worth, Marriott's DC Points system was rumored at least as far back as 2006 yet not introduced until 6/20/10.  And it's still not available at some of the non-US resorts because they haven't worked out all the legalities.

I'll say this one thing - if not for TUG we Marriott owners individually would have had a devil of a time trying to figure out the new system.  Marriott released it by announcing it on the webpage and linking the legal documents there.  No advance notice, no customer-friendly mailings, the phone lines were jammed, the Marriott reps were under-educated and overwhelmed ... it was a ridiculous situation.  Thank goodness we had this resource and a willingness to work together.  If Points are coming for you, too, I'd guess this Starwood board will be invaluable.  Good luck.


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## alohakevin (Nov 21, 2012)

DavidnRobin said:


> ^^^^this^^^^
> 
> Seriously... This whole thread is based on what a SVO salesperson said...
> Reminds me of a famous quote by PT Barnum.
> ...



Personally i hope your right. Im relatively new to this and dont cherish the idea of getting to know another system. I do know what i saw and heard and thought tug might find it interesting. Ill grant you i may be a sucker,but if this is just bs it seems to be pretty elaborate, there again i dont have enough experience to know what the sales reps are capable of.


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## VacationForever (Nov 21, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> Wow.
> For what it's worth, Marriott's DC Points system was rumored at least as far back as 2006 yet not introduced until 6/20/10.  And it's still not available at some of the non-US resorts because they haven't worked out all the legalities.



I was at a Marriott timeshare presentation in 2006 and the Marriott sales person produced the booklet that showed the new point system and gave approximately $ for MF per 1000 points.  He also said starting in Jun/Jul 2007 they would stop selling deeded weeks.  I did not realize that it was only implemented in 2010.


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## scootr5 (Nov 21, 2012)

alohakevin said:


> there again i dont have enough experience to know what the sales reps are capable of.



We're not saying you heard wrong. Some sales people are capable of _anything_ to make a sale.....


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## GregT (Nov 21, 2012)

toddvb20 said:


> If this is true, is it a good time to buy resale now or hold out until it's official?



No, I wouldn't take any actions based upon this thread and this rumor.   This is interesting to think about, but when Marriott when to a new system, there were alot more rumors/sources that all pointed to a June 2010 change.  

We don't have the same "noise" here at Starwood and even if we did, there really isn't any way to predict what action would make sense in the New World?

So....go about your business and do what you would have done anyway.

But very interesting....

Best,

Greg


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## Ken555 (Nov 22, 2012)

DavidnRobin said:


> ^^^^this^^^^
> 
> Seriously... This whole thread is based on what a SVO salesperson said...
> Reminds me of a famous quote by PT Barnum.
> ...



Exactly. Though we know to not believe what sales people say, and only what they present in writing, these rumors can be so sensitive that many take it too seriously. What SVN does, SVN will do. It's completely out of our hands and worrying about it now is a waste of energy. Go enjoy your Thanksgiving! 

And once again...

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1388022&postcount=31


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## heathpack (Nov 22, 2012)

We are at Lagunamar next week.  We'll  take one for the team and go to a sales presentation and ask about points.

H


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## jarta (Nov 22, 2012)

alohakevin said:


> Personally i hope your right. Im relatively new to this and dont cherish the idea of getting to know another system. I do know what i saw and heard and thought tug might find it interesting. Ill grant you i may be a sucker,but if this is just bs it seems to be pretty elaborate, there again i dont have enough experience to know what the sales reps are capable of.





> They showed us charts of inventory they arent taking back on upgrades most silver and gold and a list of properties they are holding to go into the "club". There were page after page of them.



I believe you were told what you say you were told.  I believe there are charts of undesirable inventory Starwood does not want to take back.  I even believe Starwood might be toying with making changes within its system (like banking SO last year and II reservations 3 years ago).

What's more likely for a salesperson to carry to a sales presentation where you are asked to buy a week:  

A list of properties that have been acquired to be placed in a trust and never to be sold again?

Or, a list of unsold and/or re-acquired inventory that the salesperson has authority to sell?

What was the reason you should buy a deeded week now if massive, "secret" changes are coming to the system soon and deeded week owners will be asked to turn in their deeds - and even more money - to join the points club?

Enjoy your Thanksgiving.    Salty


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## LisaRex (Nov 22, 2012)

Even if the rumor turns out to be true, I don't believe for a second that they'd be able to implement it without at least 6 months' notice.   

I think that the recent Starwood survey may be our best indicator as to what moves Starwood is considering making in the future.


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## jerseygirl (Nov 22, 2012)

When Marriott announced its spinoff, analysts said to watch the stock performance to predict whether Starwood and Wyndham would follow suit.

Trading of VAC officially began on Nov 8, 2011 at $22.50.

Yesterday's close:  $39.53

Who usually owns a ton of stock?  Senior management of the company.  

While I acknowledge that all of this is speculation and rumor, based on info from a TS sales rep no less, it fundamentally makes sense if you look at it from the perspective of who benefits.


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## GregT (Nov 22, 2012)

LisaRex said:


> How did Marriott treat different views for those resorts that have OF, OV, and IV distinctions?  I paid quite a bit more for my upgraded view, as did Marriott owners.  Are they given more "points" than others who own lesser views?



Lisa,

Marriott did give more points to the View categories, so OF got the most then OV.   If you click the  Points Spreadsheet (Tripod link) below, you will find a file that shows the point allocations that TUGgers receive for their week (and also a separate chart showing Marriott's point requirements so you can compute the skim -- typically about 7-10% of a week).  

Many TUGgers were/are unhappy with the points allocated for their week just as HRA/WSJ owners feel.   But with Starwood, the inability to bank points historically I suspect played a role in not being able to give more points to those properties.  

We have have never understood how Marriott determined their point allocations.  Aruba and Frenchmans Cove are artificially low versus Hawaii even in their prime seasons.  Marriott intentionally made Hawaii perhaps 20% higher than other prime locations.  I spoke at length with their Dir of Cust Advocacy on the system design and his core comment was that they allocated points based on their projected supply/demand for each week/property/view category.  Marriott needed Hawaii owners to want to participate because they didn't have much Maui in the Trust (compared to projected needs) so Maui got the most points of all.  

By the way thanks also to Pam for the nice comment  

Will be interesting to see if this ever becomes reality. 

Best

Greg


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## alohakevin (Nov 22, 2012)

jarta said:


> I believe you were told what you say you were told.  I believe there are charts of undesirable inventory Starwood does not want to take back.  I even believe Starwood might be toying with making changes within its system (like banking SO last year and II reservations 3 years ago).
> 
> What's more likely for a salesperson to carry to a sales presentation where you are asked to buy a week:
> 
> ...



We were in his cubicle when we saw the listing of weeks that had the " club" designation. We were told that after the 1st of the year there would be no more deeded wks sold and the price overall would be going up with the new points system. He made a reference to marriott and said they all copy each other.
Under the new system he gave us some hypothetical costs cant remember what points cost but maintenance was .43 per point. Also said with new system they dont have to develop new props they can just " plop" a couple of condos next to a nice hotel and use their amenities,( didnt understand what that meant but he said it non the less). 
I dont know if any of this is true or not. It puts new meaning to " if a sales person lips are moving.... This is such a huge lie to tell just to get me to buy a timeshare. I dont have a dog in this fight one way or the other ( dont know enough to know one way or the other) its hard to believe they would go to this extent.
Either way its been a learning lesson.    Happy thanksgiving


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## SueDonJ (Nov 22, 2012)

jarta said:


> I believe you were told what you say you were told.  I believe there are charts of undesirable inventory Starwood does not want to take back.  I even believe Starwood might be toying with making changes within its system (like banking SO last year and II reservations 3 years ago).
> 
> What's more likely for a salesperson to carry to a sales presentation where you are asked to buy a week:
> 
> ...



About what I bolded - it's possible for them to introduce a Points system which doesn't require exchanging your Weeks deeds for Points.  For existing Weeks owners Marriott's system is basically an overlay exchange system.  If we enroll our Weeks in the new DC system we retain all existing ownership and usage rights but gain access to Marriott's new internal exchange system which we can elect on an annual basis.

Not saying that this is what SW will do or even that SW will definitely do something.  But this one point - that Weeks deeds must be forfeited to play the new game - was the most misunderstood aspect when Marriott rolled out their system.  Here on TUG it took quite a long time for us to derail that pre-supposed expectation.


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## jerseygirl (Nov 22, 2012)

GregT said:


> .....
> 
> We have have never understood how Marriott determined their point allocations.  Aruba and Frenchmans Cove are artificially low versus Hawaii even in their prime seasons.  Marriott intentionally made Hawaii perhaps 20% higher than other prime locations.  I spoke at length with their Dir of Cust Advocacy on the system design and his core comment was that they allocated points based on their projected supply/demand for each week/property/view category.  Marriott needed Hawaii owners to want to participate because they didn't have much Maui in the Trust (compared to projected needs) so Maui got the most points of all.  .....
> 
> Greg



That's an interesting perspective Greg and makes sense.  Under this theory, HRA might get a bump (because I think it's mostly sold out), but WSJ would not because there's probably plenty of unsold Bay Vista inventory that would go into the Trust.

Views in Hawaii seem very important to people, based on TUG chatter.  So, it would be nice to see OF and OV owners get a bump in trading value.  It also makes no sense that a 2-BR Loft is equal to a regular 2-BR at WSJ-BV, so hopefully those owners would get a bump also.  

I've always found it "interesting" that Starwood redid the seasons at WSJ when BV was rolled out, but didn't fully adjust the platinum (summer) weeks in Phase One (there was a small bump, but hurricane weeks are still worth more SOs than prime summer weeks).  They clearly took the "we don't want to tick off existing owners" path when that decision was made.  An "honest" reallottment would correct that type of imbalance.


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## jerseygirl (Nov 22, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> About what I bolded - it's possible for them to introduce a Points system which doesn't require exchanging your Weeks deeds for Points.  For existing Weeks owners Marriott's system is basically an overlay exchange system.  If we enroll our Weeks in the new DC system we retain all existing ownership and usage rights but gain access to Marriott's new internal exchange system which we can elect on an annual basis.
> 
> Not saying that this is what SW will do or even that SW will definitely do something.  But this one point - that Weeks deeds must be forfeited to play the new game - was the most misunderstood aspect when Marriott rolled out their system.  Here on TUG it took quite a long time for us to derail that pre-supposed expectation.



Thanks Susan.  I've tried to derail that concept a couple of times on this thread but it keeps resurfacing!  Can you imagine the paperwork nightmares that would ensue with a system where owners actually turn in their deeds?  I think there's zero chance of that happening.


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## Fredm (Nov 22, 2012)

alohakevin said:


> We were in his cubicle when we saw the listing of weeks that had the " club" designation. We were told that after the 1st of the year there would be no more deeded wks sold and the price overall would be going up with the new points system. He made a reference to marriott and said they all copy each other.



All SVN resorts are "Club" resorts. SVN is the Club.

I think you were given a line of B*** S***.

StarOptions IS the internal exchange vehicle.  Creating a separate points based program seems like a far fetched idea to me. 

Allowing voluntary resort resale buyers into the Club (for a price) is another matter. That has been discussed around here for quite some time. 
I also find it beyond believable that a lone sales rep is pitching something  that has a basis in fact, without it being formally announced. Sales reps are the very last to know what is going on, precisely because the powers do not want this kind of crap getting into the air (and possibly exposing the company to misrepresentation claims).


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## jarta (Nov 22, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> About what I bolded - it's possible for them to introduce a Points system which doesn't require exchanging your Weeks deeds for Points.  For existing Weeks owners Marriott's system is basically an overlay exchange system.  If we enroll our Weeks in the new DC system we retain all existing ownership and usage rights but gain access to Marriott's new internal exchange system which we can elect on an annual basis.
> 
> Not saying that this is what SW will do or even that SW will definitely do something.  But this one point - that Weeks deeds must be forfeited to play the new game - was the most misunderstood aspect when Marriott rolled out their system.  Here on TUG it took quite a long time for us to derail that pre-supposed expectation.



Susan,   Thank you for the Marriott information.

If an owner doesn't enrol the deed (or even if it is enrolled) and later sells the property, can the subsequent owner play the points game with the week?  If so, how?

For the most part, I agree with FredM.  This is a slow news period.   Salty


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## SueDonJ (Nov 22, 2012)

jarta said:


> Susan,   Thank you for the Marriott information.
> 
> If an owner doesn't enrol the deed (or even if it is enrolled) and later sells the property, can the subsequent owner play the points game with the week?  If so, how?
> 
> For the most part, I agree with FredM.  This is a slow news period.   Salty



Whether a Week is enrolled or not doesn't matter to the new buyer - enrollment does not transfer.  That's specified in the governing docs.

A couple things that are currently in effect could be changed by Marriott (but we have no indication that they will or won't be.)  External resales sold after the US roll-out, 6/20/10, are not eligible for enrollment regardless of whether the purchaser has previously enrolled other Weeks; and, resales purchased through Marriott's Resale Operations are eligible for enrollment only if a purchase of Trust Points is made at the same time.

Exceptions will be made for the Weeks of resorts which have not yet been approved for DC Trust participation.  That's what happened with certain European Weeks which were allowed subsequent to the US roll-out; their effective dates of inclusion/exclusion were tied to the dates of regulatory approval.


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## l2trade (Nov 22, 2012)

alohakevin said:


> We were told that starting in 2013 there will be no more resort specific deeded weeks sold. You will purchase a deeded week of a pool of properties, you will own little pieces of everything is the way i understood it. So from then on you will purchase points and maintenance fees will be based on how many points you have and not the individual properties. Apparently its similiar to marriott. There will be no more owners window for reservations with the new purchases everyone will have to book 8 months out or less
> 
> Questions
> Will this drive the price of mandatory props up.
> ...



I believe this story. Over a year back, I heard rumblings from Starwood employees about SVN rumors. The rumor sounded imminent. I even tried to buy a true plat resale SDO on eBay with the hope that if the rumor was true, I'd get into SVN for cheap (compared to current retro rules). I lost the eBay auction and nothing changed with SVN. I discounted it as wishful speculation from employees. I lost interest in buying more Starwood.

This past month, I met a nice retired couple who are already 5 star elite. They are not on TUG. They just finished an owner update where they were told that Starwood was basically 'sold out' and didn't have the inventory this couple wanted to buy at the resort they wanted. All that was available there were junk weeks. The sales manager brought them an inventory list of 'all' inventory with only junk weeks to prove it. Lol! I know for a FACT that Starwood still has developer owned weeks there that this couple was interested in buying. It puzzled me. Of course, Starwood wants to sell junk weeks first. But, when it comes down to sale versus no sale, I would expect Starwood to magically 'find' the deeded week this couple wanted to buy. Why not? Then I read this OP and it starts to makes sense. Is the rumored change imminent again? It sounds plausible. I want no part of it this time.


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## jerseygirl (Nov 22, 2012)

Fredm said:


> All SVN resorts are "Club" resorts. SVN is the Club.
> 
> I think you were given a line of B*** S***.
> 
> ...



Fred -- I don't think this has anything to do with creating a new points system for the sake of creating a new points system, or a one-time revenue infusion (and subsequent tiny increase in annual fee revenue) by finally allowing resale owners to buy in.  I think the vast majority of resale owners were already invited in with the SVR refurb -- and that effort probably wasn't as successful as they would have liked due to the lack of trading opportunities based on SO values.  

I think it has EVERYTHING to do with getting rid of the junk weeks still in inventory ... and finding ways to make $$ from all the foreclosures the HOAs are sitting on.  It's hard to sell a mud week in Colorado in this economy, but Marriott is apparently having success selling mud weeks by disguising them as club points.  

Additionally, Marriott has guaranteed a healthy, long-term revenue stream with club dues, something they didn't have before.  Of course, Starwood already has a revenue stream with SVN fees, but it's probably pretty hard for them to justify increasing the fees drastically without offering additional club perks.   The ability to trade for less than a week is pretty huge (Disney has it, Hilton has it, Hyatt has it, Marriott has it).  You have to blow up, or at least drastically alter, the current SVN structure to offer meaningful short-term opportunities.

I have no idea how the new Marriott-II contract is structured, but I feel fairly certain Marriott had the upper hand in those negotiations ... and I suspect Starwood would have the same if they mirrored Marriott's "one fee for everything" approach.  

Then, you have the fact that VAC (Marriott's spinco) has almost doubled in price since it initially started trading ...

Oh ... and the aggressive exercise of ROFR ....... 

I'm sorry, but it's impossible for me to believe that Starwood isn't actively considering a new product.  The old one is, IMHO, getting a bit stale.  I'm a little bored with it.


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## woodyd70 (Nov 22, 2012)

This sounds a lot like an inexperienced rep trying to explain a way into a sale.  This could truly be a simple case of the rep being a recent hire from another resort that doesn't know diddly about the Starwood product.  

OR, just pure HEAT............

I'm not biting.................


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## AZVILLA (Nov 22, 2012)

*New System?*

We just attended an owners update at WDW on 11/20/12 and no discussion of a new system was discussed.  I did not ask because I did not see this thread, but I bated them saying we could probably use more options but not more weeks.  They just "pushed" buying another week.

At WDW they claim to be sold through 2013.  They have a lot of open space and you can see multiple buildings under construction.

Obviously you never really know what Starwood is up to but they did not present any new system to us this week.


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## jw0 (Nov 24, 2012)

This is a really interesting thread.  I do not own at Marriott but I did peruse their tug threads a while back when the DC system came out just out of curiosity.

I had a couple questions about how a theoretical Starwood system would work, or perhaps, if anyone knows, how the Marriott DC system works currently.

 - how does yearly voting work?  Currently, I can vote for the board based on my ownership.  If I own part of a trust, do I get to vote on the board compositions for ALL SVO properties?  Is that even possible, to have a partial or fractional vote?  It seems more likely that I wouldn't get to vote at all.  But then who controls that "trust" vote?  Could it be Starwood?  Does anyone know how Marriott handles this?

 - how does non-payment of MFs work?  Currently, if I don't pay my MFs, my week gets "blocked out" so I can't use it (and I suppose theoretically, Starwood could rent out that week to try to recoup some of the lost MFs).  But if I own part of a trust, what happens?  Does each property in the underlying trust lose out in terms of collected MFs?  I know I can't use my points, but is there some underlying timeshare time that could be rented out to offset the lost MFs?  Where would that happen?

 - this second question seems rather important.  At SBP, one of the units I own, there is a large line item in the budget for "uncollectible" MFs, more so than other starwood properties, I would assume.  One potential future benefit to SBP - non-paying owners in the trust would be less of a problem, because any uncollectible MFs would be diluted out over the entire trust (or at least I'd assume so).  On the other hand, I suppose this might be a relative minus to properties that have MF-paying owners.

Thanks in advance to any who might have answers.

Sincerely,
JW.


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## Ken555 (Nov 25, 2012)

jw0 said:


> Thanks in advance to any who might have answers.



How could anyone here have any answers to your questions? This thread has morphed from a reported salesman presenting "facts" to even more fiction. For myself, I don't want "theoretical" answers - I want factual answers. At the moment, there's no evidence that any change will occur, other than our "belief" that SVN will change. And based on our understanding of the timeshare industry and the history of SVN being unable to stay constant for many years, a change does seem to be in the future. But, what form that change will take is still anyone's guess.


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## taffy19 (Nov 25, 2012)

LisaRex said:


> How did Marriott treat different views for those resorts that have OF, OV, and IV distinctions? I paid quite a bit more for my upgraded view, as did Marriott owners. Are they given more "points" than others who own lesser views?


Yes, they do but resale values will plummet if they follow the Marriott way but it may also be the bad economy or both.


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## taffy19 (Nov 25, 2012)

toddvb20 said:


> If this is true, is it a good time to buy resale now or hold out until it's official?


For Marriott owners it was a good time to buy cheap re-sale units before the official date of June 20, 2010. I forgot the year so had to look it up here and was surprised to read that it has only been about 2 1/2 years. I thought that it had been longer than that. 

It may not be the same for Starwood. They may do things differently and may have learned from some of the mistakes that Marriott made but re-sale prices dropped a lot. Who knows as it may be the economy too so prices may drop even more before or after Starwood is starting a new system so there is no rush. JMHO. 

Marriott gave resale owners a second chance to enroll but it cost them money but they saved a lot of money by buying the resale weeks even cheaper than before the roll-out. You never know what is best to do unless you are willing to speculate.

I am glad that we only have one Marriott week to worry about and not more.


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## ocdb8r (Nov 25, 2012)

My $.02 on this thread (and the idea in general) thus far...

1) I'm surprised there's not a bit more discussion an analysis revolving around the fact that SVO has operated a points overlay system since nearly day one.  This has given them a lot more experience and data that Marriott had when Marriott launched its overlay.  Marriott was stuck with data from a third party (II) and from a system that allowed little to no flexibility for non-week long reservations.  SVO on the other hand has been operating SVN for some time, with heaps of data on how demand ebbs and flows with a point based system.  Not saying this is good or bad, but I think there is a MUCH lower degree of uncertainty (and hence less room for speculation in my mind) with regards to how an SVO implementation of "point" sales would be.  There is no reason they can't just make minor changes to monetize the existing SVN points based system.

2) SVN has already adjusted the points values a few times over the years to account for "issues" in previous allocations.  I don't see there being a ton of changes needed to be made.  Sure, should they actually launch something like what's been discussed in this thread, it would be natural for them to adjust any imbalances they have seen, but given they've shown they have had no issue doing this in the past, I'm not concerned ('cause they would have already done it if they thought it was necessary).

3) I'm not sure I understand the discussion raised by some on points values and "enticing" existing owners at the higher demand resorts to "join" the system.  All the most in demand resorts are already SVN mandatory.  If they just make minor tweaks to SVN (a system they have complete control over) they have guaranteed inventory at HRA, WSJ, KAA, KAN and WKV (and SVV).  Why would they launch a new system that required them to attract all those owners rather than just modify the system they have in place that already REQUIRES all those resorts to participate?

4) I don't think this would necessarily be a bad thing.  By most accounts, Marriott's system has shaken out fairly well.  People still find plenty of inventory in II and many have happily welcomed the opportunity to use the system for more flexible vacations (despite the fact it doesn't offer the same value of an II trade in many cases).  SVO NEEDS to monetize the "mud weeks" at certain resorts if we ever expect to see new resorts added again in the future.  Further, I'd rather they have a healthy sales book than be stuck staring at us existing owners as the single source to bleed for revenue.  

5) SVO is much smaller and has a much lower exposure to resorts with really LOW off seasons compared to Marriott.  Really it's just the few ski resorts and SBP that I see as having DRASTIC seasonal swings.  All the other resorts have their natural ebbs and flows, but the curves aren't nearly as high at the desert and Caribbean resorts.  To me this means less room for there being a drastic impact from people buying up points (mostly represented by low demand weeks) and then reserving prime weeks with them.

6) Given all the above, the only real change I see SVN needing to make is to the shorter than 7 night reservation window.  I think 60 days is WAY too short and would be a stumbling block to selling smaller points packages to customers.  No one is going to dip their toe in the SVN waters if they can only make reservations 60 days in advance.

Anyhow, just my musings on this thread and possible SVN changes.  I'm not particularly concerned...yet.


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## jw0 (Nov 25, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> How could anyone here have any answers to your questions?



Sorry for the confusion - you're obviously correct that we won't know for Starwood until we get anything confirmed.  I was mainly interested in how Marriott does it with their current system.

If nobody knows, you're probably right - it may be best not to bother speculating.

-JW


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## SueDonJ (Nov 25, 2012)

jw0 said:


> This is a really interesting thread.  I do not own at Marriott but I did peruse their tug threads a while back when the DC system came out just out of curiosity.
> 
> I had a couple questions about how a theoretical Starwood system would work, or perhaps, if anyone knows, how the Marriott DC system works currently.
> 
> ...





jw0 said:


> Sorry for the confusion - you're obviously correct that we won't know for Starwood until we get anything confirmed.  I was mainly interested in how Marriott does it with their current system.
> 
> If nobody knows, you're probably right - it may be best not to bother speculating.
> 
> -JW



With the understanding that this is all speculation and it could turn out that Starwood changes nothing, nevermind makes changes similar to what Marriott did ... I'll try to answer your questions re Marriott with very simple answers.

Marriott's new system for existing Weeks owners is basically an optional overlay that doesn't change the structure of underlying Weeks, which means that if we choose to enroll our Weeks in the DC we still retain the same voting rights at our individual resorts that we've always had and we still pay our MF based on the individual resorts' Operating Budgets (which also see "bad debt" line items inching up.)  Enrolled Members do not gain any voting rights, nor do we assume any of the MF, for the Trust.  

Trust Members do not gain rights to vote in the individual resorts' matters.  Purchasing and owning Marriott's DC Trust Points is a totally different animal and those governing docs do not give Trust Members as many rights and protections that the Weeks Owners get from their docs.  There are relatively few DC Trust owners participating on TUG (compared to DC-enrolled Weeks owners) so there's a lot of DC-related ownership info that we have yet to figure out.


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## GregT (Nov 26, 2012)

ocdb8r said:


> My $.02 on this thread (and the idea in general) thus far...
> 
> 1) I'm surprised there's not a bit more discussion an analysis revolving around the fact that SVO has operated a points overlay system since nearly day one.  This has given them a lot more experience and data that Marriott had when Marriott launched its overlay.  Marriott was stuck with data from a third party (II) and from a system that allowed little to no flexibility for non-week long reservations.  SVO on the other hand has been operating SVN for some time, with heaps of data on how demand ebbs and flows with a point based system.  Not saying this is good or bad, but I think there is a MUCH lower degree of uncertainty (and hence less room for speculation in my mind) with regards to how an SVO implementation of "point" sales would be.  There is no reason they can't just make minor changes to monetize the existing SVN points based system.
> 
> ...



I agree, I don't think changes (if any) will be nearly as radical as they were for Marriott.   We will see what comes in the months ahead and see if we hear more comments similar to those reported by the OP.

Best,

Greg


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## jw0 (Nov 28, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> With the understanding that this is all speculation and it could turn out that Starwood changes nothing, nevermind makes changes similar to what Marriott did ... I'll try to answer your questions re Marriott with very simple answers.
> 
> Marriott's new system for existing Weeks owners is basically an optional overlay that doesn't change the structure of underlying Weeks, which means that if we choose to enroll our Weeks in the DC we still retain the same voting rights at our individual resorts that we've always had and we still pay our MF based on the individual resorts' Operating Budgets (which also see "bad debt" line items inching up.)  Enrolled Members do not gain any voting rights, nor do we assume any of the MF, for the Trust.
> 
> Trust Members do not gain rights to vote in the individual resorts' matters.  Purchasing and owning Marriott's DC Trust Points is a totally different animal and those governing docs do not give Trust Members as many rights and protections that the Weeks Owners get from their docs.  There are relatively few DC Trust owners participating on TUG (compared to DC-enrolled Weeks owners) so there's a lot of DC-related ownership info that we have yet to figure out.



Thanks, Susan!  That's pretty interesting, and it makes sense.  I am curious about the voting power of the Trust.  It's likely that Marriott controls those votes.  Now Marriott seems to have done a good job of looking out for owners, so that's probably not a big deal to y'all.  But I'd suspect that many here would not enjoy the idea of Starwood essentially keeping all that voting power to themselves.


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## clsmit (Nov 29, 2012)

*Will take one for the team, too*

We'll be at WMH the week of New Year's (anyone else there then? Pedro?) and will go to the Owner's Update to see what we can learn. It's always fun when they try to understand our portfolio, anyway. WMH is the west coast HQ for SVN so hopefully there will be a rep who knows what's going on. Plus, it will be right when the rumored change is supposed to occur, so we'll see if we get pressured into doing anything before things change.


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 29, 2012)

jw0 said:


> Thanks, Susan!  That's pretty interesting, and it makes sense.  I am curious about the voting power of the Trust.  It's likely that Marriott controls those votes.  Now Marriott seems to have done a good job of looking out for owners, so that's probably not a big deal to y'all.  But I'd suspect that many here would not enjoy the idea of Starwood essentially keeping all that voting power to themselves.



Starwood essentially already controls all voting due to control of the HOA BOD, and flaws in the proxy system (lack of quorum, and most voting gives control to BOD to make decisions for the whole).  I would not be surprised that this is also the case for Marriott.


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## heathpack (Nov 30, 2012)

Ok, we took one for the team here at Lagunamar.  But alas!  The saleswoman professed no knowledge of any upcoming change.  She stated that from her perspective, Starwood is already a points system with the added benefit of a deed.  We had a pretty decent conversation about my understanding of the difference between the pure points system we own (Disney) and the points overlay system (Hyatt) and she actually seemed interested in hearing about it.

We told her at the beginning that we own three timeshares and are not interested in buying any more, just wanted to find out about points system.  We gave her every oportunity to dismiss us early, but we stayed exactly 91 minutes in the end.  The interaction was perfectly pleasant.

She told us Lagunamar was almost sold out.  We asked where the next new resort would be- all she knew is that Starwood is "always building" but she wasn't sure what was next.  (Nothing is probably the closest to the truth!)

8000 Starpoints puts me over the threshold I need for a Vancouver booking I want to make, so an ok price to pay.  I assume we cannot do another update later this month, but we will be at Mission Hills over Christmas.  If they'll give us more Starpoints, we'll try again with the WMH sales staff.

H


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## Ken555 (Nov 30, 2012)

heathpack said:


> 8000 Starpoints



I believe that is the most StarPoints I've heard SVN offer for a meeting, anywhere. Was this their initial offer to you?


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## heathpack (Nov 30, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> I believe that is the most StarPoints I've heard SVN offer for a meeting, anywhere. Was this their initial offer to you?



Yes, they said its normally 6500 but they had extra points in their monthly allotment & were offering the 8000 if we did the tour by the end of Nov.  We didn't know what the typical offer was.  We did a tour at Kierland about 16 mo ago and that was a $100 AMEX gift card.

H


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## Captron (Nov 30, 2012)

heathpack said:


> I assume we cannot do another update later this month, but we will be at Mission Hills over Christmas.  If they'll give us more Starpoints, we'll try again with the WMH sales staff. H



Thanks for taking the time to go and to report here. I was told the interval for incentives was minimum 3 months but like everything else that is up for interpretation and change. 

I was told this fall that there is no new building on the current 5 year plan. They still do own the property in Aruba and "speculation" has been a hybrid hotel/SVO property would probably be next if anything happens after 5 yrs.

As has been discussed here, exercising ROFR for inventory seems to be the current plan of action. I am sure future building will depend on the credit/economic climate and if they can keep sufficient inventory for sales. I would bet they can scoop up 14 gazillion SO worth of inventory at SVR and other places for almost zero cost to sell for a long time before that happens. Of course that would be sold as a better and cheaper way to access Hawaii and St John "at any time" easily.


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 30, 2012)

Here's a solution...

Buy where you want to go... or can recapture MFs (plus) if you cannot go.


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## pointsjunkie (Nov 30, 2012)

we just got 10,000 starpoints.


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## Quiding (Dec 4, 2012)

Westin Riverfront meeting on Saturday, 8000points..


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## alotofgolf (Dec 4, 2012)

only 5k at Princeville


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## lamarjames (Dec 5, 2012)

Presently at SVV, 4,000 points to attend "Owners Update" which we did.  Although not very understanding of how everything works relative to Marriot, did ask the salesperson directly and specifically about any transition to a points system only.  The response was that they have heard NOTHING about any change to the current method/system of ownership.  What did occur though, was after we advised the salesperson that we were completely satisfied with what we own, they proceeded to show us how we could move from 3 to 4 star elite.  This would be done by buying back our most expensive shares (SVV and WKORV eoy) at 100% of what we originally paid, and selling us 304,000 options (76,000 x 4)which would move us over the 4 star option requirement.  We did not accept this (although tempting after some negotiation) as what we found we would get in return would be more ownership at SVV only and an increase of about $700.00 in MF annually (at todays rates).  Again, until I asked what we would actually own, the complete discussion was in purchasing options and how that could benefit us.  Don't know if this helps but that I would let you know.


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## LisaRex (Dec 5, 2012)

Thanks for the information. 

I think that the salesman is needlessly confusing the issue. He talks of purchasing "StarOptions" when you are actually buying a deeded voluntary timeshare that participates in the StarOptions program.  If you were to sign, trust me, you'd be buying a VOI for a specific unit in a specific resort in a specific season.  It's important to know, and understand, the distinction, because if you ever want to get out, it'd be much easier IMO to be able to sell 300,000 SOs on the resale market, than to try to get rid of, oh say, 3 separate 2-bdrm gold weeks at SVR.


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