# Night flight pilot fatigue?



## calgal (Jan 21, 2007)

I was wondering about pilots on night flights and whether they tend to be generally on a late schedule and thereby acclimated to late hours. Or do all commercial pilots take turns flying night flights, in which case I would suspect some would get tired if flying during usual sleep hours. Has the safety of night flights been compared with daytime flights and what were the results?


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## Pat H (Jan 21, 2007)

I have no idea what the answer to your question is but there haven't been any crashes that I can remember that were due to pilot fatigue. Remember there are always at least 2 pilots in the cockpit. I don't know if you saw the news today but a Continental pilot had a heart attack yesterday on a flight from Houston to Puerto Vallarta and died. I don't know if he was at the controls when it happened but the flight was never in danger.


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## daventrina (Jan 21, 2007)

Pat H said:


> ... I don't know if you saw the news today but a Continental pilot had a heart attack yesterday on a flight from Houston to Puerto Vallarta a....


So much for the usefulness of a class 1 medical every 6 months...

http://www.team4news.com/Global/story.asp?S=5966852
http://www.postchronicle.com/news/breakingnews/article_21260138.shtml
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006204793
http://cbs2.com/topstories/topstories_story_021085748.html

There are rest and work restriction that are to protect the flight crew. 
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...26ec6331a3bcee20852566ef006d1998!OpenDocument
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...cal_documents/2001/media/crew_limitations.pdf


Federal Aviation     Regulations 14 C.F.R. § 121.471, Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All     flight crewmembers. Section 121.471(b) states as follows:  Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no certificate holder     conducting domestic operations may schedule a flight crewmember and no flight crewmember     may accept an assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours preceding the     scheduled completion of any flight segment without a scheduled rest period during that 24     hours of at least the following: (1) 9 consecutive hours of rest for less than 8 hours of scheduled flight time;
      (2) 10 consecutive hours of rest for 8 or more but less than 9 hours of scheduled flight       time;
      (3) 11 consecutive hours of rest for 9 or more hours of scheduled flight time. ​http://cf.alpa.org/internet/projects/ftdt/faacorr/rubin_6-4.html


*[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]    Pilot Fatigue:
[/FONT]*http://www.pilotfriend.com/aeromed/medical/fatigue1.htm
http://aeromedical.org/Articles/Pilot_Fatigue.html
http://www.airlinesafety.com/editorials/PilotFatigue.htm
http://www.slate.com/id/2148497/


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## Carl D (Jan 22, 2007)

All is fine. What do you expect?- Pilots will never die just because they have a physical?


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## JudyS (Jan 22, 2007)

Pat H said:


> I have no idea what the answer to your question is but there haven't been any crashes that I can remember that were due to pilot fatigue.....


There are plenty of crashes that are due to "pilot error."  I don't see how one could tell whether the pilot error was due to fatigue, or to some other cause.


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## Carl D (Jan 22, 2007)

JudyS said:


> There are plenty of crashes that are due to "pilot error."  I don't see how one could tell whether the pilot error was due to fatigue, or to some other cause.



The NTSB is extremely competent at figuring out causes of aircraft mishaps.
That said, pilit error usually factors into the equation.


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## daventrina (Jan 22, 2007)

Carl D said:


> All is fine. What do you expect?- Pilots will never die just because they have a physical?


That's the point we're told that you have to have a physical for, to stop that from happening.
For light sport aircraft, you don't have to have one anymore.


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## Carl D (Jan 22, 2007)

I truly wish just having a physical would stop me from dying. Heck, everyone would be getting one!  

Seriously though, the 2 pilot concept is a much better assurance than a physical.


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## JudyS (Jan 22, 2007)

Carl D said:


> The NTSB is extremely competent at figuring out causes of aircraft mishaps.
> That said, pilit error usually factors into the equation.


I agree with that.  My point was it won't always be possible to tell what caused the error -- fatigue, distraction, poor training, or something else.   So, it's quite possible that fatigue plays a role in many crashes, but is simply listed as "pilot error."


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## johnmfaeth (Jan 22, 2007)

OK, A little quiz....

1) What were the last three major crashes (at least one fatality) involving a commercial jetliner in the US and what were the causes as per NTSB? (9/11 excluded as premediated homicide of course)

2) How many total US flights took place during since the earliest of the three incidents?

Answer coming soon...


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## Pat H (Jan 22, 2007)

1) Comair in Kentucky - Definitely pilot error - Day flight
    AA from JFK-Dominican Republic right after 9/11 - Aircraft failure - Day    flight


2) Millions of flights


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## JudyS (Jan 22, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> OK, A little quiz....
> 
> 1) What were the last three major crashes (at least one fatality) involving a commercial jetliner in the US and what were the causes as per NTSB? (9/11 excluded as premediated homicide of course)...


If the question is whether day flights are safer than night flights, you would need a sample size far larger than three crashes to tell -- you'd want dozens at least.  Second, you'd have to correct for the fact that there are just more flights during the day to start with.

That said, the chance of dying in a plane crash is extremely remote.   The NTSB should be thinking about pilot fatigue as a possible problem, and perhaps they are.  As a traveller, though, I'm certainly not going to worry about it.  Even if, say, the chance of a crash is 50% higher at night, that's still just 50% more of a chance that's less than one-in-a-million to start with.  

Sheesh, this thread is reminding me that I should be working on my research methods lecture for tomorrow, not hanging out on TUG...


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## johnmfaeth (Jan 22, 2007)

Hi Judy,

I agree with you fully that night flying is more dangerous than day flying. The airlines due tend to keep pilots on shifts which are in sync with internal "Circadian" clocks but the lack of light is a natural sleep inducer.

But one has to also factor the benefits of a 2-3 person flight crew versus solo flight at keeping things going. Probably a bigger factor for day or night is pilot boredom as all they do manually is takeoff and land, the rest is 100% autopilot (other than holding patterns). Pilots will tell you that flying is 4 hours of boredom interrupted with 1 minute of excitement (landing).

I guess I am just a wee bit perturbed with the fear of flying thing. A client of mine wouldn't let her 16 year old son go with his high school band to a contest in Texas recently because she wouldn't let him fly. How sad, especially born of an ignorant position. Only one who stayed home and missed out on a great developmental experience.

So forgive my hijacking of the thread...


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## Bill4728 (Jan 22, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> I agree with you fully that night flying is more dangerous than day flying. The airlines due tend to keep pilots on shifts which are in sync with internal "Circadian" clocks but the lack of light is a natural sleep inducer.
> 
> But one has to also factor the benefits of a 2-3 person flight crew versus solo flight at keeping things going. Probably a bigger factor for day or night is pilot boredom as all they do manually is takeoff and land, the rest is 100% autopilot (other than holding patterns). Pilots will tell you that flying is 4 hours of boredom interrupted with 1 minute of excitement (landing).



Flying at night is not like you driving a car at night, even if the pilots fall asleep the plane is on autopilot and there are few other planes in the sky at that time. That may not make you feel better, but they're not going to crash the plane because they fell asleep but as a car driver you fall asleep and you crash.


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## Carl D (Jan 22, 2007)

Pat H said:


> 1) Comair in Kentucky - Definitely pilot error - Day flight


Didn't this happen early in the morning? For night owls such as me, this is the time I would be less sharp.
Although this was clearly pilot error, the airport layout with respect to the two runways involved is very confusing. That is clearly a contributing factor IMO.



Pat H said:


> AA from JFK-Dominican Republic right after 9/11 - Aircraft failure - Day    flight


Yes, the aircraft broke apart, but the NTSB still managed to place some blame on pilot error. I'm not sure if pilot error was the primary cause though.


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## Carl D (Jan 22, 2007)

JudyS said:


> I agree with that.  My point was it won't always be possible to tell what caused the error -- fatigue, distraction, poor training, or something else.   So, it's quite possible that fatigue plays a role in many crashes, but is simply listed as "pilot error."


I agree, but only to a point. The NTSB can determine what the crew did to cause the error, and work back from that. 

For example, do you remember the Eastern Airlines L10-11 (I think) crash in the everglades many years back? 
The NTSB determined that a light bulb was inoperative, indicating the landing gear may not be down. All crew members became so fixated on the possible gear problem, that none of them noticed the autopilot had disengaged. The aircraft slowly flew itself into the ground with no crew paying attention. 
This was pilot error, but it's highly unlikely fatigue played a role.

Another example is the formentioned AA crash in NY shortly after 9/11.
While partially the crews fault, their mistake was over controlling the aircraft. Again, not likely due to fatigue.


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## johnmfaeth (Jan 22, 2007)

Hi Carl,

in the AA (Howard Beach, NY) crash, the determination was that overuse of rudder control cause the rudder to go beyond design tolerances and it separated from the aircraft. So the pilots were blamed as the airplane became a flying rock. Possible wake turbulance was also listed as a potential contributing factor. It happened in the late AM when even I am perky 

The NTSB has a term called "controlled flight into terrain". It is when a perfectly good airplane, flown by a perfectly good crew, flys into the earth's surface (can be a big mountain).

That's what happened in the Everglades, about a decade ago in Columbia. usually caused by distractions.

The military has a related phenomenon called "target fixation". On a dive bombing run, the pilot would get so into the target, they would accidentally end up flying into it. 

But what was the third accident going back in time, the one before Howard Beach/AA?

John


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## Carl D (Jan 22, 2007)

Hi, John. You sound knowlegable in this field. Do you have particular training in this field?
I have been a professional pilot for 20 years. The Cali crash is also an interesting study. Although I don't investigate crashes, we have a CFIT course every 6 months at recurrent training. We have listened to many accident tapes, including Cali.

Yes, the "over control" of the rudder is the one that i was referring to with AA.

Do you remember the Eastern crash in the everglades? I think we are talking early 70's on that one.


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## Blue Skies (Jan 22, 2007)

Most cargo flying (FedEx, UPS, etc.) is done overnight.  Do crashes with cargo air companies happen very often?  I don't recall hearing of any, but I don't really know?


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## Dave M (Jan 22, 2007)

Carl D said:


> Do you remember the Eastern crash in the everglades? I think we are talking early 70's on that one.


That was on December 30, 1972, killing 101 of the 176 on board. And it was, as you remembered accurately, a Lockheed 1011.


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## Carl D (Jan 22, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> But what was the third accident going back in time, the one before Howard Beach/AA?


How about TWA 800?
I believe the ahem.. "official" NTSB cause was a spark that ignited fumes in the empty center fuel tank.


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## Carl D (Jan 22, 2007)

Dave M said:


> That was on December 30, 1972, killing 101 of the 176 on board. And it was, as you remembered accurately, a Lockheed 1011.


Wow, Dave. You really did your homework on this one.
It's amazing anyone lived through this crash.


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## Carl D (Jan 22, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> But what was the third accident going back in time, the one before Howard Beach/AA?



Okay, not sure if this qualifies since it's a non US carrier, but how about The Swiss Air MD-11 (?) that crashed in the ocean because of smoke in the cockpit? I believe the smoke was from the aircrafts wiring of the entertainment center.


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## Dave M (Jan 22, 2007)

Taking your question literally, 





> What were the last three major crashes (at least one fatality) involving a commercial jetliner in the US...?


it would seem that the Southwest crash in 2005 at Midway during a snowstorm would qualify. One person was killed - a passenger in a car that the plane hit.


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## Dave M (Jan 22, 2007)

And the one before Howard Beach/AA was probably the Alaska Air crash off of the California coast. Counting the Southwest crash, that is at least the 4th one back in time (excluding 9/11).


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## Pat H (Jan 22, 2007)

Dave beat me to it but I was going to say the Alaska Air crash was the third one. How come I knew all three of these without looking anything up? That's scary. 

I used to be an extremely paranoid flyer. I'd be in tears by the time the flight took off. When I took my kids on their first flight I was determined not to pass my fear on to them. I remained very calm and I think that was a turning point for me. I just flew alone on 8 different flights in the last 9 days! I guess I'm over my fear.


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## johnmfaeth (Jan 22, 2007)

Hi Pat/All,

The reason you knew is because the media "beat" it into all of us for a few days after each incident.

I believe the Nova Scotia Swiss Air crash was the third one back. The only fatality at Midway being a car is ironic as heck (with full remourse for the poor soul) in that it shows driving is indeed more dangerous than flying, even in a plane crash.

The Alaska Air off California crash was before that. Thankfully, the heroic flight crew kept off shore to limit deaths on the ground.

The net toll - 10 years, 5 crashes. Average is about 100 dead per year. Puts it about 50 -100 spots down on the causes of death list, probably near mudslides and ice skating accidents. Only TWA 800 happened at night, About 8 PM if I recall, just 10+ minutes after takeoff, when the flight crew was still busy with air traffic control communications and had no blame as per the NTSB.

The real question is why isn't 1/4+ of the population also neurotically afraid of fatty food, non-grounded appliances, slippery shower stalls, or worn out brakes on cars, much greater "killers"?

I guess people are just funny.....


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## Dave M (Jan 23, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> I believe the Nova Scotia Swiss Air crash was the third one back.


I don't think that one qualifies since the quiz specified "in the U.S." Nova Scotia is in Canada.


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## Carl D (Jan 23, 2007)

Dave M said:


> I don't think that one qualifies since the quiz specified "in the U.S." Nova Scotia is in Canada.


True. I'm not sure why I was thinking it was off the coast of Maine. Perhaps they were headed to Bangor for an emergency landing?
Although there was smoke in the cockpit, it is likely that pilot error played a big role. Nobody can say for certain, but if the crew just made an overweight landing instead of burning off fuel they probably would have survived.


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## johnmfaeth (Jan 23, 2007)

Dave, as usual when you post after me, I stand corrected....

John


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## daventrina (Jan 23, 2007)

*Here is the last 10*

*http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp
*​

```
[CENTER]Current
Synopsis[/CENTER]
         [CENTER]PDF
Report(s)[/CENTER]
         [CENTER]Event
Date[/CENTER]
         [CENTER]Probable
Cause Released[/CENTER]
         [CENTER]Location[/CENTER]
         [CENTER]Make / Model[/CENTER]
         [CENTER]Regist.
Number[/CENTER]
         [CENTER]Event
Severity[/CENTER]
         [CENTER]Type of Air Carrier Operation
and Carrier Name (Doing Business As)[/CENTER]
        		Factual 		 
 		 		Factual 		
 		8/27/2006  
 		  
 		Lexington, KY  
 		Bombardier, Inc. CRJ-100  
 		N431CA  
 		Fatal(49)  
 		SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier COMAIR INC  
 		 	  		Preliminary 		 
 		 		Preliminary 		
 		1/16/2006  
 		  
 		El Paso, TX  
 		Boeing 737-500  
 		N32626  
 		Fatal(1)  
 		SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier Continental Airlines (D.B.A. Continental Airlines)  
 		 	  		Preliminary 		 
 		 		Preliminary 		
 		12/19/2005  
 		  
 		Miami, FL  
 		Grumman G-73T  
 		N2969  
 		Fatal(20)  
 		SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier FLYING BOAT INC                                    (D.B.A. Chalks Ocean Airways)  
 		 	  		Preliminary 		 
 		 		Preliminary 		
 		12/8/2005  
 		  
 		Chicago, IL  
 		Boeing 737-700  
 		N471WN  
 		Fatal(1)  
 		SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier SOUTHWEST AIRLINES CO                               
 		 	  		Probable Cause 		 
 		 		Factual , 
Probable Cause 		
 		6/7/2005  
 		5/30/2006  
 		Washington, DC  
 		Embraer 170  
 		N803MD  
 		Fatal(1)  
 		SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier  (D.B.A. US Airways Express)  
 		 	  		Probable Cause 		 
 		 		Factual , 
Probable Cause 		
 		10/19/2004  
 		1/24/2006  
 		Kirksville, MO  
 		British Aerospace Jetstream 32  
 		N875JX  
 		Fatal(13)  
 		SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier CORPORATE AIRLINES                                  
 		 	  		Probable Cause 		 
 		 		Factual , 
Probable Cause 		
 		8/13/2004  
 		8/9/2006  
 		Florence, KY  
 		Convair Div. of Gen. Dynamics CV-340 (580)  
 		N586P  
 		Fatal(1)  
 		NSCH Part 121: Air Carrier AIR TAHOMA INC                                      
 		 	  		Probable Cause 		 
 		 		Factual , 
Probable Cause 		
 		9/12/2003  
 		10/5/2006  
 		Norfolk, VA  
 		McDonnell Douglas DC-9-51  
 		N776NC  
 		Fatal(1)  
 		SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier NORTHWEST AIRLINES INC  
 		 	  		Probable Cause 		 
 		 		Factual , 
Probable Cause 		
 		1/8/2003  
 		6/29/2004  
 		Charlotte, NC  
 		Beech 1900D  
 		N233YV  
 		Fatal(21)  
 		SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier AIR MIDWEST INC (D.B.A. US Airways Express)
```


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