# Over $12,000 eBay bid for 1,799,000 points



## jebloomquist (Dec 20, 2013)

I am clearly flabbergasted at the $12,099.11 currently bid on the Panama City Beach eBay auction item 261346206363. It is for 1,799,000 points which calculates to $12,099.11/1,799 or $6.72 per 1000 points. Even thought the Panama City Beach mf/1000 is $4.04, this auction bid is really high.

I currently have 660k Panama City Beach points, and paid $2211 for them on eBay, or $3.35 per 1000 points. The current owner and eBay seller luky987 must be elated with this ongoing auction. Well, maybe not the original owner who probably paid the developer a whole lot more.

Do we have two uninformed bidders battling to the end on this one item, or is this a sign of prices in the future? If it's the future, maybe it is time for me to sell my units and forget about rentals. Over the last year I have acquired about 3 million points with an average mf/1000 of about $4.00. At $6.72 per 1000, I could make a nice one year profit by selling them. No, not really. That would just leave me with a bunch of lesser valued much higher mf/1000 properties.

I guess an additional question is, have we had eBay auctions before with this many or more points, that had a winning auction price of more than $6.00 per 1000 points? I can't recall any.

Jim


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## scootr5 (Dec 20, 2013)

Private listing from a seller with a cruddy reputation, and starting price was $5K? I'm not going to call it a sign of things to come.


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## Bigrob (Dec 20, 2013)

I had called out this auction before. I also noticed that it was listed as a 30 day auction and figured it would ride for most of those days with no bid. I was wrong about that.

There was a recent auction for a 2M point CWA contract that went for 12K and a 1M Oceanside that I seem to recall ended in the mid $6K range. But then there was another 700-800K CWA contract that went for less than $1K recently too. The final bids on ebay are pretty inexplicable at times.


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## scootr5 (Dec 20, 2013)

Bigrob said:


> The final bids on ebay are pretty inexplicable at times.



Yes, and then they will frequently show up re-listed in a couple of weeks.


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## lcml11 (Dec 20, 2013)

jebloomquist said:


> I am clearly flabbergasted at the $12,099.11 currently bid on the Panama City Beach eBay auction item 261346206363. It is for 1,799,000 points which calculates to $12,099.11/1,799 or $6.72 per 1000 points. Even thought the Panama City Beach mf/1000 is $4.04, this auction bid is really high.
> 
> I currently have 660k Panama City Beach points, and paid $2211 for them on eBay, or $3.35 per 1000 points. The current owner and eBay seller luky987 must be elated with this ongoing auction. Well, maybe not the original owner who probably paid the developer a whole lot more.
> 
> ...



Not a bad price if the low maintenance fees continue with no special assessments made for deferred maintenance when it cannot be deferred anymore.

If anyone has the energy, do a price comparison with re-sale CWA contracts (I believe these contracts can be combined and divided within certain limits) taking into account the continuing maintenance fees differential between CWA and the lower price per thousand at this resort.

Assume the relative differential in maintenance fees costs remains the same over time.

The answer between a go and no go is what period of time would be acceptable for a breakeven point.


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## ronparise (Dec 20, 2013)

lcml11 said:


> Not a bad price




I agree

prices for the low mf properties routinely go for over $5/1000 points

When they get to $10 for the good stuff and $7.50  for average, and $5 for the high mf contracts...Im a seller

Jim, your Bali Hai stuff ought to go for close to $10, pretty soon


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## ronparise (Dec 20, 2013)

another way to look at this is to spread the purchase price out over a period of time...say 10 years, and add that number to the mf to get a real cost of ownership then dovode by the number of points (in thousands) to get the cost per 1000 points

13000/10=1300
mf=606/mox12=7272

1300+7272= 8572/1799=  $

Id be happy to get mf at that level, but to get mf and amortized purchase price there would make me very happy

unfortunately I dont have the ready cash to do it..(all my money this month is paying 2014 maintenance fees.)


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## tug1873 (Dec 21, 2013)

At those prices rci points accounts become much more attractive to me.



Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## vacationhopeful (Dec 21, 2013)

ronparise said:


> ...unfortunately I dont have the ready cash to do it..(all my money this month is paying 2014 maintenance fees.)



AND THAT is the problem with Fixed/Floating Weeks --- same story for me, Ron!


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## mspeggysue911 (Dec 21, 2013)

That seller is also selltimeshare.org and they use Pacific Transfer and they ripped me off. I bought a contract and they never put it in my name and never refunded me the money. They are scammers. Too bad someone can't warn those bidders they may be about to get ripped off in the worst way.

They have 58 bad complaints against them with the BBB for ripping ppl off just like they did to me.


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## ronparise (Dec 21, 2013)

mspeggysue911 said:


> That seller is also selltimeshare.org and they use Pacific Transfer and they ripped me off. I bought a contract and they never put it in my name and never refunded me the money. They are scammers. Too bad someone can't warn those bidders they may be about to get ripped off in the worst way.
> 
> They have 58 bad complaints against them with the BBB for ripping ppl off just like they did to me.




Ive done three deals with Pacific Timeshare 


Two of them went well, no problems at all. The third one was a problem, but when it became clear that they wouldnt be able to close they refunded my money.


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## lcml11 (Dec 21, 2013)

tug1873 said:


> At those prices rci points accounts become much more attractive to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk



Or, line up with a VIP Platinum Owner on a long-term lease arrangement or someone like some of the mega rentors that post that will give the low price per thousand dump rate to the regular rather than cut into their profit margin by building iffy expectations about the price per thousand points that could be gotten if they wait.  Do do a multi-year price with either group.


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## mspeggysue911 (Dec 21, 2013)

ronparise said:


> Ive done three deals with Pacific Timeshare
> 
> 
> Two of them went well, no problems at all. The third one was a problem, but when it became clear that they wouldnt be able to close they refunded my money.



I can't ever get anybody on the phone. I call them and they either never answer or answer and then put me on hold real quick and never come back. I have emailed them dozens of times, the seller and Pacific and no response from either of them.


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## mspeggysue911 (Dec 21, 2013)

mspeggysue911 said:


> I can't ever get anybody on the phone. I call them and they either never answer or answer and then put me on hold real quick and never come back. I have emailed them dozens of times, the seller and Pacific and no response from either of them.



Selltimeshare.org was the seller and I think it is called Pacific title transfer was suppose to be the title company.


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## ronparise (Dec 21, 2013)

mspeggysue911 said:


> I can't ever get anybody on the phone. I call them and they either never answer or answer and then put me on hold real quick and never come back. I have emailed them dozens of times, the seller and Pacific and no response from either of them.



I had the same problems but I persisted. I also tracked down the seller (different than yours I think)....

Im not saying Pacific Timeshare would ever be my choice of a closing company, but If they had something I wanted, I might take a chance again. I dont think they are scammers, out to steal your money...they are just bad at what they do


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## Bigrob (Dec 21, 2013)

mspeggysue911 said:


> Selltimeshare.org was the seller and I think it is called Pacific title transfer was suppose to be the title company.



I agree with Ron - be persistent. I'll PM you a cell number for the president. They ended up making things right on a deal with me that took awhile and had a couple of problems.


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## levatino (Dec 24, 2013)

Years back I purchased a week 51 Spinnaker unit through eBay and had the God awful luck of having to do business with Pacific Transfer.

Unreturned calls were routine and I eventually told them to cancel the sale.  Eventually, like a year later, I got a call explaining that my timeshare was ready for closing.  Lol.  Needless to say, the closing didn't take place!


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## jebloomquist (Jan 3, 2014)

*Final Winning Bid, $15,100*

This Panama City Beach auction ended with a bid price of $15,100. My 2014 Panama Beach City maintenance fees just jumped to $4.23/1000 points. So, the winner also can think about $4.23*1,799 or $7,609.77 for 2014 maintenance fees.

There is no way to know what future fees will be, but just using the 2014 rate, over ten years when factoring  in the auction price, the fees come to $5.07 per 1000 points. 

Personally, I only think out 6 year, because I don't even know what I will be doing tomorrow. In that case the fees factor to $5.63 per 1000 points. For me, that is higher than I like to go when I consider an auction.

I hope that the winner is happy. If you are out there, let us know what your feelings are about winning.

Jim


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## Bigrob (Jan 4, 2014)

jebloomquist said:


> This Panama City Beach auction ended with a bid price of $15,100. My 2014 Panama Beach City maintenance fees just jumped to $4.23/1000 points. So, the winner also can think about $4.23*1,799 or $7,609.77 for 2014 maintenance fees.
> 
> There is no way to know what future fees will be, but just using the 2014 rate, over ten years when factoring  in the auction price, the fees come to $5.07 per 1000 points.
> 
> ...



It wasn't me... but it could have been for around half that. But even at $15K they have to be feeling a whole lot better than the person who paid north of $200K for it originally.


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## lcml11 (Jan 4, 2014)

Bigrob said:


> It wasn't me... but it could have been for around half that. But even at $15K they have to be feeling a whole lot better than the person who paid north of $200K for it originally.



Probably did not pay that for it.  Probably bought when the prices were much much less or inherited it.


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## Bigrob (Jan 4, 2014)

lcml11 said:


> Probably did not pay that for it.  Probably bought when the prices were much much less or inherited it.



Not necessarily. I'm working on one now that the previous owner paid over $250K for. A few less points at a slightly newer resort. I'd be surprised if the original purchaser (who admittedly might not have been the most recent seller) didn't pay at least $200K for it. That would be "only" $111/K point. Today's rack rate is $220 or $225/K point (generally "discounted" back to about 175 with "bonus points" thrown in.)


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## 55plus (Jan 5, 2014)

I see the auction closed at $15,000 for 1.7 million points. That's way too much money to have APR at any Wyndham resort. This is just crazy...


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## tug1873 (Jan 6, 2014)

Although this is a lot points. It still is a lot of money. I also assume with this many points there not using them personally.   

For an investment that you wanted to rent it would make more sense to put a down payment on a condo and you get 52 weeks a year to rent. Perhaps someone is splitting the deed and reselling them?


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## am1 (Jan 6, 2014)

tug1873 said:


> For an investment that you wanted to rent it would make more sense to put a down payment on a condo and you get 52 weeks a year to rent. Perhaps someone is splitting the deed and reselling them?



No that is not the case especially in a place like pandhandle.


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## ronparise (Jan 6, 2014)

morrisjim said:


> I see the auction closed at $15,000 for 1.7 million points. That's way too much money to have APR at any Wyndham resort. This is just crazy...





There is no difference between buying 1.7 mm points for $15000 and buying 300000 points for $2700

Now I think $9/1000 is high for most contracts. its pretty much the market now for the really low mf contracts like this one


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## Rent_Share (Jan 6, 2014)

morrisjim said:


> I see the auction closed at $15,000 for 1.7 million points. That's way too much money to have APR at any Wyndham resort. This is just crazy...



I am confused


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## ronparise (Jan 6, 2014)

tug1873 said:


> Although this is a lot points. It still is a lot of money. I also assume with this many points there not using them personally.
> 
> For an investment that you wanted to rent it would make more sense to put a down payment on a condo and you get 52 weeks a year to rent. Perhaps someone is splitting the deed and reselling them?



1.7mm points is not a lot if you are using Wyndham instead of buying a second home


its  barely enough for 2 months in season.  

If I wanted to buy a whole ownership condo on a Florida beach town to use for 2 months every year, It would cost at least $200000 and the condo fees, taxes, and utilities will be at least $1000 a month

So lets compare

$15000 plus $7500 a year mf
vs
$200000 plus $12000 a year expenses (and I havent even furnished the place yet


Want to argue that your $200000 condo will appreciate over time but my timeshare wont?  You lose again...Im putting my $200000 in a blue chip stock fund and its as likely to appreciate as your Florida condo


Heres what I would do with 1.7 mm points. I would credit pool the 2104, 2015 and 2016  points and have 5mm points to make reservations to rent. If I rented them at the rate of $5/1000 points I would see an immediate return of $25000  (ive got a guy I could wholesale these to for $4 and have $20000 back tomorrow.


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## ronparise (Jan 6, 2014)

Rent_Share said:


> I am confused



as usual...

You have to own Wyndham points and use them to learn the intricacies of the system


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## tug1873 (Jan 7, 2014)

ronparise said:


> 1.7mm points is not a lot if you are using
> [/B]
> 
> Want to argue that your $200000 condo will appreciate over time but my timeshare wont?  You lose again...Im putting my $200000 in a blue chip stock fund and its as likely to appreciate as your Florida condo
> .




My thought is if you can come up with 15k for a timeshare then you can invest in other assets. I don't have any problems with timeshares but they simply are a  not a bankable asset for a reason. Other real estate you can go to the bank with and get a reasonable interest rate.

The MF for these points are around $7500 a year. You should be able to get 8-9 weeks a year. 

The big question is what is those nights worth on the rental market. I would peg most wyndham resorts are worth roughly $150 a night. I basing this on normal to peak demand weeks and the fact we do not have daily housekeeping.

That means you should make roughly 1050 a week or a total of $9450 in rental income.  Your profit is $1950.  Not a bad profit and is why we all own wyndham. at 15k you giving up 8 years of income for the privilege and own an asset that is hard to sell. 

If I took that same 15k and put 20% on a 75k house here in Texas. I could rent it out for $1k a month no problem.  Even at 50% expenses I am way ahead of the timeshare purchase and I have much less risk.   Here in Texas my rentals have gone up 20% in the last year.  Buying Bluechip funds is also not bad but that is another topic

Buying timeshares for free or very little money is very profitable but the reason to buy them goes away very quickly once you start to actually pay larger amounts of money compared to other investments.


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