# Glut of DVC Resale Listings?



## dioxide45

I was watching the most recent video/podcast from the World of DVC and they indicated that they have ten times the number of resale listings now than they had the same time last year. 700 listings compared to 70 last year. Looking at the listings on their website, I see a lot that say "reduced" or "seller to pay closing". I suspect the recent downturn in the markets and economy and with gas prices at historic highs is leading to a sell off. Certainly DVC resale prices are at historic highs, but with a bunch of new resale inventory hitting the market, I would think it would lead to a downturn in prices.


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## kanerf

Not to mention that the cost of going to the parks is also at an historic high and APs have not returned.  No DDP either.


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## dioxide45

kanerf said:


> Not to mention that the cost of going to the parks is also at an historic high and APs have not returned.  No DDP either.


Yeah, that could also certainly be part of it. The product certainly isn't the same. That said, the parks are still packed, but perhaps the DVC members are bailing while the nightly guests are still willing to fork over a lot of money for a product that has diminished over time. I was reading a thread over on DISBoards where someone was asking of $10K CAD was enough for a trip for a family of five. I can't imaging spending $10K on that kind of vacation.


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## Ralph Sir Edward

Dare I say it? . . . . Maybe the Disney experience is starting to price itself out of the mass market?


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## dioxide45

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Dare I say it? . . . . Maybe the Disney experience is starting to price itself out of the mass market?


Perhaps, but I think there are also other external factors like fuel prices and a downturn in the economy. Is DVC resale listings just a predictor of things to come? I am not sure we have seen similar increases in resale listings for other timeshare brands.


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## Limace

As someone very immersed in DVC, I think ROFR has a huge impact in this right now. For instance, you can’t get SSR through below $130 a point. People buying don’t want to pay that much and may be hoping to wait it out. 


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## Snazzylass

hmmm..this does not surprise me at all! Totally predicted this. I think a lot of people are over Disney.


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## dioxide45

Limace said:


> As someone very immersed in DVC, I think ROFR has a huge impact in this right now. For instance, you can’t get SSR through below $130 a point. People buying don’t want to pay that much and may be hoping to wait it out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Perhaps if Disney starts to see the glut of resale inventory they may back down their ROFR a little bit causing prices to come down some?

You can price something at $130, but if you can't find a buyer then Disney won't even have the opportunity to exercise on ROFR. At some point in time people will have to be willing to sell for less and either let Disney take them or see if Disney backs off their ROFR price points.


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## dioxide45

Snazzylass said:


> hmmm..this does not surprise me at all! Totally predicted this. I think a lot of people are over Disney.


I think a lot of people are, but going by the number of people in the parks, there are a lot of new people getting into Disney. The parks are still full, lines are long. How long can it last though?


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## bnoble

it's hard to say whether or not other timeshare systems are seeing an increase in available resales, because the market for them is much more decentralized and opaque. But, even if this is a Disney-specific thing, there are reasons for it both good and bad.

As noted, the Parks product is different, and the price points are not helping. However, I suspect that has less to do with this than many think. A good number of DVC owners are not going to blink at the changes in price point. it's just money, and relatively little for most people who would be comfortable dropping low-to-mid five figures on a luxury discretionary purchase. And, that might be true of many Disney vacationers in general: the biggest surprise for management about the new pay-to-play system was how the large number that were willing to pay.

The parks are slammed, the resorts are full. It is true that there is a breaking point, but this idea that "finally they've gone too far" comes up every time Disney increases the prices for something. Disney has been in the business of setting prices for their product for decades, they are fanatical about measuring guest sentiment, and they probably know more about what their guests will accept than Joe the armchair CEO. That doesn't mean they can't be wrong, but my money is on the Mouse.

I do think the economic headwinds have something to do with it, but not in the way that some of you might. Prices have _soared_ in the secondary marketplace over the past year. That's likely not going to continue for very much longer, and I suspect there are a good number of owners testing the market with "buy me out, I dare you" prices, thinking they are near a short-term top. If they get it (or close to it) fine, they'll sell. If not, no worries, they will keep it and just move on.


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## kanerf

Travel overseas has also not returned in a big way.  Perhaps people are opting for the little Eiffel at World Showcase rather than the real one.


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## rickandcindy23

Limace said:


> As someone very immersed in DVC, I think ROFR has a huge impact in this right now. For instance, you can’t get SSR through below $130 a point. People buying don’t want to pay that much and may be hoping to wait it out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


On my DVC Facebook group, a woman just closed on VWL for $108 per point.  Passed ROFR quickly.  

Disney AP's not being available to members currently is a big mistake.  We kept ours current.  Not allowing the sale of new AP's seems very non-inclusive.  It's like they are wanting a lawsuit.  After all, we still have them, others cannot get them, and that seems wrong to me.  We have encouraged our kids to keep them in case they are never allowed to buy them new again.  

Some of it is politics.  There are quite a few people who feel that Disney lost its magic.  They want out because they are making profit over what they paid years ago and because they don't see any reason to continue to pay daily admission costs.  

Disney started selling alcohol everywhere in the parks. That is creating some loud guests.  I cannot imagine paying the price for alcohol in the parks enough to get drunk, but you see it.


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## TravelTime

This is surprising because I see many pending and sold listings for Marriott and Vistana on Redweek. Maybe that will slowdown too. When/if housing gets affected, then we will know we are in a real downturn/recession. 

I read a book about the development of Florida in the 1920s and how speculatoon there contributed greatly to the depression. Florida got slammed a few years before the depression. Many of the famous developers in Florida ended up dying with nothing. The author said housing is the true indicator of the economy more than the stock market. This is what happened in 2008. 

Now housing is red hot but we are starting to see price reductions and homes staying for sale longer. Economists and others say the housing market may go down soon.

So let’s see how timeshares in general are affected. Based on what people are saying in this thread, perhaps DVC has other factors affecting the market for its timeshares.


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## mdurette

I did a quick search the other day, looking to buy a small contract just for the perk of annual pass discount.   I was surprised how much 50 points cost and quickly squashed that idea!


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## dioxide45

mdurette said:


> I did a quick search the other day, looking to buy a small contract just for the perk of annual pass discount.   I was surprised how much 50 points cost and quickly squashed that idea!


Don't you have to purchase direct for the AP discount? Wouldn't you also have to own the minimum to be considered a qualifying member for that perk? I don't know what that number is these days. Or are AP discounts open to everyone?


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## kanerf

I believe you must buy 150 points to get the blue card benefits, such as they are.  The only ones right now are dining discounts and the Epcot lounge.


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## frank808

mdurette said:


> I did a quick search the other day, looking to buy a small contract just for the perk of annual pass discount. I was surprised how much 50 points cost and quickly squashed that idea!


You will need to purchase 150 points direct to get blue card benefits. Or be grandfathered in.

No DVC AP discounts unless you had existing AP since covid.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## rickandcindy23

frank808 said:


> You will need to purchase 150 points direct to get blue card benefits. Or be grandfathered in.
> 
> No DVC AP discounts since covid.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


We kept our AP's through all of the shutdowns and renewed with the AP discount.  But it was the Sorcerer's Pass, and it was $815 to renew.  Not as many blackout dates as we had with our other passes.  They are quite a savings, when you go to Disney World 9-12 weeks a year.  We go four weeks starting 10/8.


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## bnoble

dioxide45 said:


> Don't you have to purchase direct for the AP discount? Wouldn't you also have to own the minimum to be considered a qualifying member for that perk? I don't know what that number is these days. Or are AP discounts open to everyone?


DVC has been grandfathering anyone who qualified under "old" thresholds, including those who bought resale before there was any distinction.


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## dioxide45

bnoble said:


> DVC has been grandfathering anyone who qualified under "old" thresholds, including those who bought resale before there was any distinction.


True, but I was replying to @mdurette and I wouldn't think they fall into this category based on their post.


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## MOXJO7282

I don't think it has anything to do with the economy because those that can afford DIS aren't that effected by the downturn. If that were the case you'd see it across the board in the travel sector and you're not, in fact quite the opposite, activity and rental prices are at a premium, as is purchase price. Is DIS a leading indicator? Again I don't think so. In the last recession, at least in the high end space, business went on as usual and my rental business didn't miss a beat.  It is likely something with the product.


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## rickandcindy23

Maybe those who paid $60 per point in 2010 are just selling at $120 per point today to take their profit.  Could be that simple.


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## dioxide45

MOXJO7282 said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with the economy because those that can afford DIS aren't that effected by the downturn. If that were the case you'd see it across the board in the travel sector and you're not, in fact quite the opposite, activity and rental prices are at a premium, as is purchase price. Is DIS a leading indicator? Again I don't think so. In the last recession, at least in the high end space, business went on as usual and my rental business didn't miss a beat.  It is likely something with the product.


Certainly during prior recessions there would have been an increase in rental supply potentially leading to depressed prices? Sure people that can afford DIS may not be affected, but there are a lot of people that finance or can barely afford that would be impacted and possibly want out. Based on finances, not everyone going to Disney should be going to Disney. In a downturn, there will always be fewer of those at the top of the market that they sell these products to. People with good paying jobs lose them too.


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## rickandcindy23

Quite a few of the DVC owners on my Facebook group are complaining about their inability to borrow points from their next year's use. They have limited borrowing to 50% of your year's allotment.  If you have 100 points and need 170 for your reservation, you cannot use 70 points from next year to make that reservation.  All kinds of complaints about it.  Apparently, you can call and get an exception to that rule, but online has no such capability.  

That is a "rule" Disney made that is not in keeping with the governing documents.  It was supposedly due to Covid, but I see no reason for them to continue enforcing it.  I would be bitter, if I was counting on using my points for next year.  I do not worry about it, especially with exchanges so easy to get for most of the weeks we want to go.


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## littlestar

We aren’t renewing our AP’s.  Going to the Disney parks feels like a big chore with all the planning required.  We also reduced our DVC points again.  Down to just 125.


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## frank808

rickandcindy23 said:


> We kept our AP's through all of the shutdowns and renewed with the AP discount. But it was the Sorcerer's Pass, and it was $815 to renew. Not as many blackout dates as we had with our other passes. They are quite a savings, when you go to Disney World 9-12 weeks a year. We go four weeks starting 10/8.


Ok corrected my statement with no DVC discount with new pass purchase.

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## ljmiii

frank808 said:


> Ok corrected my statement with no DVC discount with new pass purchase


Well…they did take away the AP discount for DVC ‘Blue Card’ members.

Renewing an AP that actually *is* an Annual Pass costs the same whether you are DVC or not.

Disney will let you buy a sort of annual pass if you are a blue card member…except you can’t buy a new one, you can only renew. And it doesn’t allow you into the parks around Thanksgiving and Christmas, leaving only Presidents and Easter Weeks if you are limited by the school vacation calendar.


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## TheHolleys87

rickandcindy23 said:


> Quite a few of the DVC owners on my Facebook group are complaining about their inability to borrow points from their next year's use. They have limited borrowing to 50% of your year's allotment.  If you have 100 points and need 170 for your reservation, you cannot use 70 points from next year to make that reservation.  All kinds of complaints about it.  Apparently, you can call and get an exception to that rule, but online has no such capability.
> 
> That is a "rule" Disney made that is not in keeping with the governing documents.  It was supposedly due to Covid, but I see no reason for them to continue enforcing it.  I would be bitter, if I was counting on using my points for next year.  I do not worry about it, especially with exchanges so easy to get for most of the weeks we want to go.


Actually, the governing documents state that DVC can modify or suspend banking and borrowing as needed to maintain balance in the system. The glut of points that were banked during the pandemic and are being used this year and the extensions given to international owners (which are expiring soon) are probably contributing to the unusual booking patterns (villas booking up quicker) this year. With those banked points being used up, hopefully the 50% borrowing restriction will be removed soon. There are increasing numbers of exceptions being reported by owners calling MS who need just a few additional points beyond their 50% limit. So hopefully the end of that is in sight.


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## mdurette

dioxide45 said:


> Don't you have to purchase direct for the AP discount? Wouldn't you also have to own the minimum to be considered a qualifying member for that perk? I don't know what that number is these days. Or are AP discounts open to everyone?



No idea on all questions, something I would have looked into before I pulled the trigger.   Didn't get that far once I saw the price of the small contracts


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## MOXJO7282

dioxide45 said:


> Certainly during prior recessions there would have been an increase in rental supply potentially leading to depressed prices? Sure people that can afford DIS may not be affected, but there are a lot of people that finance or can barely afford that would be impacted and possibly want out. Based on finances, not everyone going to Disney should be going to Disney. In a downturn, there will always be fewer of those at the top of the market that they sell these products to. People with good paying jobs lose them too.


This was just my high-end Marriott experience regarding previous economy downturns. Prior to the 2009 recession there were many renting modest and middle tier TSs of all brands, and from what I could tell doing quite well with it. When the recession hit most of those lost their market because many middle to lower class were greatly effected and cancelled vacations resulted and resales were abundant. But much to my surprise, because I expected my entire rental program to come crashing down , those that were upper-middle or above class didn't change any of their habits and as a result my rentals weren't effected at all.  So I just don't think its an economy thing yet. Remember at this point not many have lost their jobs yet, unlike in 2009 when many did. Also not seeing a glut of middle of the road TSs being discounted so this seems to be isolated to DIS right now. So again I think it's something else and by the sound of it, it does seem other product factors are in play.  

Just my .02.


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## SML123

I was able to maneuver an RCI trade for three condos same week in July at DVC Saratoga this year for a four generation family trip. However, once my husband and I did the math, we decided to give them the condos with Guest Certificates and let the three generations go on their own. With our flights from Arizona, rental car, and tickets for all for even two days, the total WITHOUT ANY FOOD would be more than the trip to Italy we are planning for next year. So they all have a lovely resort but unfortunately we will not get to see their little faces light up at a character breakfast. This year Ive gone from doing research to buy a small DVC points contract to being full on OUT.  I must correct the person in this thread who said the people at the top are not those who are affected by this horrible inflation. WE ARE THE PEOPLE AFFECTED BY THE INFLATION, PLUS WE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO OWN THE BUSINESS THAT WERE DECIMATED BY THE PANDEMIC SHUT DOWNS AND STILL HAVE PRODUCT SUPPLY CHAIN ISSUES. We are also affected by the high crime and inability to hire right now. Every is affected by the horrible economy and $7 per gallon gas prices. Dont be foolish. We are all in the same boat. Disney will feel it too eventually, just not tomorrow.


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## Kat05

We are contemplating selling our DVC. We've been members since 2006 and have enjoyed numerous vacations but ended up renting our points out the last couple of years. It seems our adult children and teenage grandchildren aren't as interested in going any more on top of the cost. I contacted Disney and they are buying back contracts and I was given a price over the phone. It seems very quick and easy and it's several thousand more than we paid. I'm struggling with what to do!


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## Lisa P

Before you act on a direct resale back to Disney, I'd contact a good DVC resale agency. Find out the going rate on a quick sale of what you own, and deduct the reseller's commission. Compare your "cash outs" before you decide which way to go, if you do decide to sell. Using a good agency is just as easy.

If you anticipate continuing to rent it out for several years into the future rather than using it, why keep it? It's just marking off years on the RTU lease. You could easily use the proceeds to get something you'd actually use or to pay for other kinds of vacation stays, if you don't need the cash for other areas of your budget or investments. OTOH, if you can see yourselves wanting to use DVC again in the next few years to stay at DVC resorts, then renting it out is a reasonable option in the short term.


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## bnoble

Kat05 said:


> it's several thousand more than we paid


...but probably several thousand less than you'd get on the open market. That will take a little more time and effort, even using a broker, so it's up to you which way you'd like to go.


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## fatlard

Snazzylass said:


> hmmm..this does not surprise me at all! Totally predicted this. I think a lot of people are over Disney.



We were at Epcot and Universal last year.  It was hot and busy.  The tickets were expensive so we got up early in the morning and stay late at night.  It rained on us several times.  Yes, the rides were fun but is it enough for the kids to want to go back.

We ask the kids if they want to go to Disney this year, they (8,8 and) all said "NO".  They rather go to hiking, go to a beach or be on their computers.

Similarly.. who wants to go to a NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL game....    being a large group and at times in miserable conditions paying outrageous prices makes no sense nowadays.


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## Limace

Yeah, I’d definitely contact a resale agency. For instance, I think Disney will offer $80 ish if they buy back-but you’re going to get $135 (minus commission) with a broker for OKW, as an example. That’s a lot of money to trade for easy (plus I prefer to make Disney pay more!)


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## rickandcindy23

Rent your points by booking a studio in a popular week and list it on go-koala.com for about $17.50 a point.  Then use that money elsewhere.  Wait for a better time to sell.  

Renting is easy and free to list at go-koala.com because they get money after it rents, not before it rents.  Redweek also works.


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## dioxide45

Kat05 said:


> We are contemplating selling our DVC. We've been members since 2006 and have enjoyed numerous vacations but ended up renting our points out the last couple of years. It seems our adult children and teenage grandchildren aren't as interested in going any more on top of the cost. I contacted Disney and they are buying back contracts and I was given a price over the phone. It seems very quick and easy and it's several thousand more than we paid. I'm struggling with what to do!


Go through one of the big resale brokers. Disney is happy to buy it back from you. They sent out some letters to OKW owners last year with an insulting offer to buy back points. Don't sell them back to Disney. You can sell just as easily to a third party. Though with a lot of contracts on the market, it may take a little longer to sell.


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## ljmiii

rickandcindy23 said:


> Renting is easy and free to list at go-koala.com because they get money after it rents, not before it rents.


I'm confused...why would anyone get money before it rents? The major DVC rental agencies (David's, DVCRentalStore, DVC-Rental) all make money off the vig between the amount they charge renters and the amount they pay owners.

With the DVC resale market frozen for the moment, I just rented out some DVC points on the DVCRentalStore (though I have used the other two in the past). Interestingly enough, demand for rental points is so strong that they recently increased their price and are paying 75% when you make the reservation (instead of 50%).


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## ljmiii

There is no question the resale market for DVC is odd at the moment. DVC Resale's May ROFR report just came out today and new records are being set both in terms of the number and price of contracts ROFR'd by Disney.








						DVC Right of First Refusal May '22 | DVC Resale Market
					

Year-to-date (YTD), Disney has exercised their right of first refusal (ROFR) on 483 Disney Vacation Club (DVC) contracts, resulting in a 21.6% buyback rate.




					www.dvcresalemarket.com


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## pedro47

How long can DVC keep their resale market frozen.  Is this the beginning of a DVC crash? Or are DVC Rentals agents making more money renting DVC properties than what Disney are earning from owners   & exchangers?

Food for Thought.


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## noreenkate

TheHolleys87 said:


> Actually, the governing documents state that DVC can modify or suspend banking and borrowing as needed to maintain balance in the system. The glut of points that were banked during the pandemic and are being used this year and the extensions given to international owners (which are expiring soon) are probably contributing to the unusual booking patterns (villas booking up quicker) this year. With those banked points being used up, hopefully the 50% borrowing restriction will be removed soon. There are increasing numbers of exceptions being reported by owners calling MS who need just a few additional points beyond their 50% limit. So hopefully the end of that is in sight.



this is supposed to be changing next week but on a case by case basis via phone in to MS….this was personally a big deal for me that along with the revised point /season chart changes was enough to get me staying outside the bubble for the first time in years…an subsequently picking up contracts with other timeshare  systems. @Kat05 Seriously contact a broker you will due far better than what DVC is offering…


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## ljmiii

pedro47 said:


> How long can DVC keep their resale market frozen.  Is this the beginning of a DVC crash? Or are DVC Rentals agents making more money renting DVC properties than what Disney are earning from owners & exchangers?


I don't see this as DVC keeping the resale market frozen but rather (from Disney's perspective) a pleasant side effect of shifting guest patterns. With fewer AP holders and international visitors, Disney is filling the parks with people eager and willing to buy DVC points direct from the source. All those new customers need inventory.


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## Dean

pedro47 said:


> How long can DVC keep their resale market frozen.  Is this the beginning of a DVC crash? Or are DVC Rentals agents making more money renting DVC properties than what Disney are earning from owners   & exchangers?
> 
> Food for Thought.


I think the answer is related to how well they can sell the points.  They currently have a finite number of points available only supplemented with the ROFR purchases.  Over it's 40 year history DVC has defied the odds on price and sales.  During the 08/09 period they did stop ROFR and the price went to about half it was immediately before.  I don't think that was directly related to ROFR being stoped but rather the economy itself dictated both situations.


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## callwill

Im a beleiver in the idea that if they wish to exercise ROFR because the they think the sale price is too low, then they should be forced under those circumstances to buy you out.


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## Pathways

pedro47 said:


> How long can DVC keep their resale market frozen


Not sure what you mean here, can you explain further?


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## dioxide45

Pathways said:


> Not sure what you mean here, can you explain further?


Yeah. I am not sure either. I don't think this is something Disney is doing or even something DVC has control of.


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## Pathways

callwill said:


> Im a beleiver in the idea that if they wish to exercise ROFR because the they think the sale price is too low, then they should be forced under those circumstances to buy you out.


Please explain what you mean here by 'should be forced'

To 'exercise ROFR' means exactly that, they 'buy you out' at the same price and terms of the contract.


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## Pathways

I'm not sure the high number of listings has a deep meaning. 

I happen to be part of that high number.  The are a lot of moving parts that led me to sell some of my points, but the main reason is the historic HIGH price.  

For the points I don't use personally, I rent. I used to be able to make an 8-10% return (calculated using the sale value of the points).  The selling price of points has risen so much, that my % return has dropped to 4-5 %.  (while rental prices have also risen, they have not kept up with the rise in selling prices)

IOW, why mess with a rental when the selling price may be at a historical high?  Especially for the resorts where the points EXPIRE and will have NO value in 20 years. I have sold all of my points at resorts where they expire in 2042 except for BWV.  I still have about 750 points there which I PLAN to keep all the way to the end b/c we love to stay there. OTOH, if prices continue to rise, I will evaluate selling even some/all of those points. 

Of course DVC still has my money. I used my windfall of cash to buy into the resorts with later expiration dates. Pick and choose loaded contracts and hope you can get it without Disney ROFR.

If there was even a hint the DVC would simply reup the 2042 contracts, I would re-examine selling.  But not even a rumor at this point.  Many are guessing they will let them expire, and then resell them as new at full price. Who knows?


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## dioxide45

Pathways said:


> If there was even a hint the DVC would simply reup the 2042 contracts, I would re-examine selling. But not even a rumor at this point. Many are guessing they will let them expire, and then resell them as new at full price. Who knows?


Aren't there five and a half resorts with 2042 dates? That would be a lot of inventory that DVC has to carry until they sell it. I don't think the demand is there (at rental prices they charge) to fill all those rooms with cash guests for a period of several years after 2042. I suspect they may let a couple of the resorts go; like Vero ahd HHI. For the others, I suspect they will offer some type of reup to current owners. I doubt it will be a simple extension, but perhaps a buyin extension like they did with OKW. Apparently the OKW buyin was a real mess in that not only did they have to get people who signed up to sign, but they had to get people who didn't extend to sign saything they were offered and turned it down. So there are some legal questions about those that never signed anything regarding the extension at OKW.


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## callwill

Pathways said:


> Please explain what you mean here by 'should be forced'
> 
> To 'exercise ROFR' means exactly that, they 'buy you out' at the same price and terms of the contract.


AH>>i was thinking they could just say no to you selling it to that buyer.
in that case i will take the emily littella stance: Nevermind!


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## Pathways

dioxide45 said:


> Aren't there five and a half resorts with 2042 dates? That would be a lot of inventory that DVC has to carry until they sell it. I don't think the demand is there (at rental prices they charge) to fill all those rooms with cash guests for a period of several years after 2042. I suspect they may let a couple of the resorts go; like Vero ahd HHI. For the others, I suspect they will offer some type of reup to current owners. I doubt it will be a simple extension, but perhaps a buyin extension like they did with OKW. Apparently the OKW buyin was a real mess in that not only did they have to get people who signed up to sign, but they had to get people who didn't extend to sign saything they were offered and turned it down. So there are some legal questions about those that never signed anything regarding the extension at OKW.


I certainly have no guess here, but b/c I buy and sell frequently, I have conversations with multiple brokers, many of whom worked for Disney, and still have close friends there.

100% say HHI and Vero will simply be gone. Most are adamant that after the disaster as OKW, there will be no extensions tried anywhere else.  I agree with you, and have argued the point  'How could they fill all those rooms with cash sales, while selling them anew'?

I mean, they keep turning CURRENT hotel space into DVC b/c of the lackluster rentals.  Their comment has been they believe they will shut down most of the resorts and do almost a complete rebuild which will give them time to sell, building by building just like new construction.

A course no one really knows.  20 years is a generation away (16 years probably before they have to have the final 'no going back' plan).  Their actual plan may totally change 2-3 times in that span.


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## TheHolleys87

Pathways said:


> A course no one really knows.  20 years is a generation away (16 years probably before they have to have the final 'no going back' plan).  Their actual plan may totally change 2-3 times in that span.


Someone else pointed out elsewhere that the people who will make these decisions are probably just recently out of business school now.

I agree that those who think DVC will offer OKW-style extensions for owners of the 2042 resorts are deluding themselves. At best they might offer current-owner discounts on purchases at the refurbished/rebuilt WDW resorts, but I’m not even sure of that since it depends on how quickly after January 31, 2042 they can get the new resorts to the point at which they can be sold. It won’t make any difference to us — DH and I simply hope to be around long enough to find out what the final plan is!


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## noreenkate

TheHolleys87 said:


> Someone else pointed out elsewhere that the people who will make these decisions are probably just recently out of business school now.
> 
> I agree that those who think DVC will offer OKW-style extensions for owners of the 2042 resorts are deluding themselves. At best they might offer current-owner discounts on purchases at the refurbished/rebuilt WDW resorts, but I’m not even sure of that since it depends on how quickly after January 31, 2042 they can get the new resorts to the point at which they can be sold. It won’t make any difference to us — DH and I simply hope to be around long enough to find out what the final plan is!



Agreed the OKW extension failure will probably be still causing headaches when the time comes and I wonder each time I see OKW owners receive emails about buy-outs if it is for adding inventory for developer add-on sales or is it simply to reduce the possible headaches in 2042 change over. Personally I never received the buyout offers but both my direct and resale are extended contracts.


----------



## dioxide45

noreenkate said:


> Agreed the OKW extension failure will probably be still causing headaches when the time comes and I wonder each time I see OKW owners receive emails about buy-outs if it is for adding inventory for developer add-on sales or is it simply to reduce the possible headaches in 2042 change over. Personally I never received the buyout offers but both my direct and resale are extended contracts.


I suspect they like to buyback OKW since they can resell with the 2057 expiration and it gives the sales people a decent drop product to sell when tour guests balk at Riviera or other new resort pricing.


----------



## bizaro86

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect they like to buyback OKW since they can resell with the 2057 expiration and it gives the sales people a decent drop product to sell when tour guests balk at Riviera or other new resort pricing.



Reselling OKW now with 2057 expiration also helps with the 2042 issue. The less product they get back all at once the smaller that issue will be, as they might only have the "problem" of getting a few years of inventory for free all at the same time. 

Realistically they are paying $100 per point for rofr right now, if they have to pay even 5 years of dues before they can sell it they're way ahead (especially since they could also rent them during those 5 years)

Edited to add: if they don't want too much inventory, they could always offer existing owners of those intervals a one-time deal to repurchase (eg $125/point for a full renewal). Many would take that, even if just to resell later, which would drop the inventory they need to carry even further.


----------



## noreenkate

bizaro86 said:


> Reselling OKW now with 2057 expiration also helps with the 2042 issue. The less product they get back all at once the smaller that issue will be, as they might only have the "problem" of getting a few years of inventory for free all at the same time.
> 
> Realistically they are paying $100 per point for rofr right now, if they have to pay even 5 years of dues before they can sell it they're way ahead (especially since they could also rent them during those 5 years)
> 
> Edited to add: if they don't want too much inventory, they could always offer existing owners of those intervals a one-time deal to repurchase (eg $125/point for a full renewal). Many would take that, even if just to resell later, which would drop the inventory they need to carry even further.



It’s my understanding that OKW - DVC are offering buyback around $88 pp if contract is fully Loaded but stripped is around $80.


----------



## bizaro86

noreenkate said:


> It’s my understanding that OKW - DVC are offering buyback around $88 pp if contract is fully Loaded but stripped is around $80.



But those owners are only selling DVC 20 years worth of OKW - once they get it back they can sell as long as they want.

Also, I believe they are paying more than $80 on rofr.


----------



## dioxide45

bizaro86 said:


> Reselling OKW now with 2057 expiration also helps with the 2042 issue. The less product they get back all at once the smaller that issue will be, as they might only have the "problem" of getting a few years of inventory for free all at the same time.
> 
> Realistically they are paying $100 per point for rofr right now, if they have to pay even 5 years of dues before they can sell it they're way ahead (especially since they could also rent them during those 5 years)
> 
> Edited to add: if they don't want too much inventory, they could always offer existing owners of those intervals a one-time deal to repurchase (eg $125/point for a full renewal). Many would take that, even if just to resell later, which would drop the inventory they need to carry even further.


DVC has offered, as recently as September 2021, a buyback offer to select OKW owners. The prices they were offering were around $80pp.


----------



## dioxide45

bizaro86 said:


> But those owners are only selling DVC 20 years worth of OKW - once they get it back they can sell as long as they want.


They can only sell it out through 2057. I don't think they can easily change the expiration date for new sales. Thus why we haven't seen more extensions like they did for OKW many years ago.


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## bizaro86

dioxide45 said:


> They can only sell it out through 2057. I don't think they can easily change the expiration date for new sales. Thus why we haven't seen more extensions like they did for OKW many years ago.



Sorry wasn't clear, I meant when they get those resorts (not just okw) back in 2042 they can sell it for as long as they want. So if 20 years of OKW is worth $80 or $100 to them now, the right to sell BCV or BWV for 50 years is going to be worth at least that much to them on 2042. So even if they have to pay the fees for those resorts for a few years before they can sell I think they will.

OKW is a weird one because of the partial extension. They might not want/be able to sell 2092 usage in 2042 there.


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## rickandcindy23

Our OKW expires when we are 87.  We knew when we bought it would be a short ownership.  Our daughter will only be 62, but maybe she will be Disneyed out by then? I doubt it.  She is a Disney nut.  She looked all over the parks, every single store, to find a specific sweatshirt in her size.  She texted today and was so excited to spend $38 on that sweatshirt.  

It's nice of all of the owners to continue to maintain and improve OKW for Disney to resell in 20 years.  I do love it there.  It's our favorite.


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## noreenkate

bizaro86 said:


> But those owners are only selling DVC 20 years worth of OKW - once they get it back they can sell as long as they want.
> 
> Also, I believe they are paying more than $80 on rofr.



the buyback offer is completely different than taking it through ROFR-

DVC is now offering owners of specific resorts, AKV, SSR, & OKW ( these are the only ones i am aware of that receives unsolicited offers via email- hey you haven’t been here in awhile ) buy outs…others have had success with calling in @Kat05  mentioned it’s relatively painless no commissions no haggling BUT a significant price difference IMO from resale market pricing.


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## noreenkate

rickandcindy23 said:


> Our OKW expires when we are 87.  We knew when we bought it would be a short ownership.  Our daughter will only be 62, but maybe she will be Disneyed out by then? I doubt it.  She is a Disney nut.  She looked all over the parks, every single store, to find a specific sweatshirt in her size.  She texted today and was so excited to spend $38 on that sweatshirt.
> 
> It's nice of all of the owners to continue to maintain and improve OKW for Disney to resell in 20 years.  I do love it there.  It's our favorite.



same here and I fully plan if I am around to spend my 80th there!

This right here is why I joined DVC at OKW-
my mother in laws 80th surprise birthday at Olivia’s surrounded by her kids, grandkids, great-grands ect..


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## ljmiii

Disney ROFR'd an OKW contract in May at $141/pt. No idea about size of contract.


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## rickandcindy23

https://www.sellingtimeshares.net/category/listings/disney/


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## rickandcindy23

ljmiii said:


> Disney ROFR's an OKW contract in May at $141/pt. No idea about size of contract.


Did you see that on disboards?  What's with that? Maybe it was under 50 points?  

Those are selling for a little over $100 per point on Seth Nock's website link I posted above.


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## nomoretslt

I too hope to outlive my BWV contracts.  I’ll be 86.  I want to see how it all ends at BWV.  Have to say best money we ever spent in 1997 at $60/pp plus they reimbursed us for the $$ we paid for our week there....and got a nice canvas beach bag.  
Resale prices seem to be falling slightly.  I did see an increase of listings for a while, but it seems to be leveling out.  
I’ve never rented out my points, but if they keep up with their nonsense (regarding annual Passes...we’ve been lucky enough to renew) I will consider renting and using the $$ to cruise on Norwegian or Royal.


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## nomoretslt

I saw that $141 figure for OKW on DVC resale market’s May report.  Disney rofr’d 49% of the resale contracts from their sales.  Had to be a small contract.  We got $151 for a 50 point BWV contract in 2019 (?), which we bought resale 10 years prior for $88/pp.


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## noreenkate

nomoretslt said:


> I saw that $141 figure for OKW on DVC resale market’s May report.  Disney rofr’d 49% of the resale contracts from their sales.  Had to be a small contract.  We got $151 for a 50 point BWV contract in 2019 (?), which we bought resale 10 years prior for $88/pp.


Curious- any idea if it was an extended?

lol I swear they are hunting the contracts down that they do not have a quit claim on

Edited to add article 




__





						Old Key West Extension Deeds Filed | DVCNews.com - The essential Disney Vacation Club resource!
					

Twelve years after offering 15-year ownership extensions at Disney's Old Key West Resort,  Disney Vacation Club has begun filing deeds with Orange County to formalize the new contract end date.   Bac




					dvcnews.com


----------



## Dean

callwill said:


> Im a beleiver in the idea that if they wish to exercise ROFR because the they think the sale price is too low, then they should be forced under those circumstances to buy you out.


I'll have to disagree.  IMO a ROFR is a critical part of a developer plan to protect themselves for new and future sales.  We all knew or should have known the risks involved when we signed up.  


bizaro86 said:


> But those owners are only selling DVC 20 years worth of OKW - once they get it back they can sell as long as they want.
> 
> Also, I believe they are paying more than $80 on rofr.


All OKW contracts are extended, the only question is who owns the extra 15 years.  If they take it back then they sell it as 2057 no matter what status it was before.  The way the land lease is structured prior to Riviera, the extension is resort wide.  IMO they didn't have the legal right to do it as they did years ago with OKW and had I still owned, I would have tested it in the courts.


----------



## dioxide45

Dean said:


> I'll have to disagree.  IMO a ROFR is a critical part of a developer plan to protect themselves for new and future sales.  We all knew or should have known the risks involved when we signed up.
> All OKW contracts are extended, the only question is who owns the extra 15 years.  If they take it back then they sell it as 2057 no matter what status it was before.  The way the land lease is structured prior to Riviera, the extension is resort wide.  IMO they didn't have the legal right to do it as they did years ago with OKW and had I still owned, I would have tested it in the courts.


I think this is why DVC had to make a big push years ago to get even those that didn't extend to sign away their rights to the extra 15 years. I recall this being talked about in one of the DVC Fan videos. It will be interesting to see what happens ahead of 2042. Perhaps Disney is hoping most of OKW has been resold as 2057, but there will likely still be thousands of owners sitting on 2042 deeds.


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## Dean

dioxide45 said:


> I think this is why DVC had to make a big push years ago to get even those that didn't extend to sign away their rights to the extra 15 years. I recall this being talked about in one of the DVC Fan videos. It will be interesting to see what happens ahead of 2042. Perhaps Disney is hoping most of OKW has been resold as 2057, but there will likely still be thousands of owners sitting on 2047 deeds.


Likely a Typo, 2042 deeds?  OKW 2057 scares me at this point with the requirement for fees and this issue.  The owners will have to pay the fees and DVC will have to do something to use those rooms for 15 years.  They could resell but I have trouble seeing DVC selling at a price that would actually sells those points, I just don't see them pricing it low enough to do so for a resort that's a moderate in some ways with higher fees than some and only 15 years or less remaining.  I think it more likely they'll try to rent for cash, close down part of the resort or use it for college programs or something similar (or a combination).


----------



## dioxide45

Dean said:


> Likely a Typo, 2042 deeds?  OKW 2057 scares me at this point with the requirement for fees and this issue.  The owners will have to pay the fees and DVC will have to do something to use those rooms for 15 years.  They could resell but I have trouble seeing DVC selling at a price that would actually sells those points, I just don't see them pricing it low enough to do so for a resort that's a moderate in some ways with higher fees than some and only 15 years or less remaining.  I think it more likely they'll try to rent for cash, close down part of the resort or use it for college programs or something similar (or a combination).


It is a big resort and I am sure they could rent it for cash on some level, I am just not sure there is enough demand when you consider all the other 2042 resorts. I doubt they really have a solution for 2042 deeds. For some resorts, it may just be a teardown and rebuild or a big overhaul. Aging buildings are a big problem when it comes to maintenance, so rebuilds are probably a better way to go. By 2057 those OKW buildings will be 67 years old. I suppose they could use it for other programs, but they already have infrastructure to support those. Without a new gate, there really wouldn't be a need for more housing for staff.


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## Dean

dioxide45 said:


> It is a big resort and I am sure they could rent it for cash on some level, I am just not sure there is enough demand when you consider all the other 2042 resorts. I doubt they really have a solution for 2042 deeds. For some resorts, it may just be a teardown and rebuild or a big overhaul. Aging buildings are a big problem when it comes to maintenance, so rebuilds are probably a better way to go. By 2057 those OKW buildings will be 67 years old. I suppose they could use it for other programs, but they already have infrastructure to support those. Without a new gate, there really wouldn't be a need for more housing for staff.


They used the Treehouse villas for college housing prior to redoing them and adding to the SSR resort.  Surely they have a plan even if it's a loose one.  I just can't imagine that reselling is going to be in the cards.  They do have legal challenges ahead with most anything they do other than selling it again or eating it out.  Of course they could extend it again to sell but I don't see that happening.  I can certainly see many ways they could incentivize selling it even at 15 years but DVC does not have a track record of pricing or other incentives that make this likely in my mind.  I'm not sure they can start a new development during the time as the entire resort will come under the POS.  It should be interesting, I hope I'm around and aware enough know what's happening with it at the time.


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## noreenkate

dioxide45 said:


> I think this is why DVC had to make a big push years ago to get even those that didn't extend to sign away their rights to the extra 15 years. I recall this being talked about in one of the DVC Fan videos. It will be interesting to see what happens ahead of 2042. Perhaps Disney is hoping most of OKW has been resold as 2057, but there will likely still be thousands of owners sitting on 2042 deeds.



whatever they are up to it’s already been started…
They have already put hundreds of deed extensions through the comptroller’s office for the owners who  signed the extension. That started in late 2019, no idea how far they got before COVID shutdowns

not sure why they refilled the deed extensions than or even if any of the effected owners even realize it was done.


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## dioxide45

noreenkate said:


> whatever they are up to it’s already been started…
> They have already put hundreds of deed extensions through the comptroller’s office for the owners who  signed the extension. That started in late 2019, no idea how far they got before COVID shutdowns
> 
> not sure why they refilled the deed extensions than or even if any of the effected owners even realize it was done.


Not sure what it means, but looking at the Orange County records on this, it looks like the deed behind this extension was sold by DVC in 2013 (likely taken back and resold). So it would be covered by the 2057 expiration of newly sold deeds. This is probably just some paperwork they need to do for all deeds sold after 2007. Perhaps they did some reconciliation and found some that were not properly extended and then had them recorded.


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## noreenkate

@dioxide45 - I follow this as my resale was a signed conversation so it kinda effects me. My direct contract deed filed by DVC has no such wording as above deed as it was purchased after the extension (2017). Same with the original purchase of my resale in (1998)  it wasn’t long after the mass filing dvc started taking a lot of OKW in Rofr than the emails started. 

if I had to guess, lol grabbing the tin foil hat,  they refilled the extensions for CYA purposes. My guess is no further extensions will granted those with 2057 will get access to _some _of the original buildings and yet another tower will go up.

What ever it is they are doing they are legally dotting the i‘s and crossing the t’s this time around- why spend all that money filing over 400 deeds in 1 day if they didn’t have a plan.


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## ljmiii

The logjam of DVC resale listings appears to have broken. The AKV contract I put on sale around 6 months ago went into contract last week. Not only did it go for 98% of the unchanged asking price, in the intervening months I rented out 2/3rds of a year's points for a tidy profit.

At the company I used, only 29 AKV listings are now active and 33 are pending somewhere in the sales process. Overall the numbers are 321 active listings and 265 in process. Certainly, the DVC resale market is nowhere near as fevered as it was last summer and prices have slumped somewhat. But it once again is liquid.


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## rickandcindy23

I am going to keep renting or using my OKW right up until it expires.  I will be 87.  I think it expires in 2042.  I don't remember.


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## ljmiii

rickandcindy23 said:


> I am going to keep renting or using my OKW right up until it expires.  I will be 87.  I think it expires in 2042.  I don't remember.


It does expire in 2042. Unless you purchased the 2057 extension. Or a court agrees with plaintiffs that the deed means what it says and that since WDW extended DVD's lease until 2057 and the DVC deeds don't expire until DVD's lease expires that the DVC deeds don't expire until 2057 either.

As for us, we put our relatively recently purchased AKV points on sale after we discovered that we really kind of hate staying there. We had previously stayed at Jambo without a car and thought that having a car along with the larger villas and extra bathroom at Kidani would make us enjoy AKV more...but we didn't.


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## nomoretslt

@ljmiii I’ve also noticed less new listings compared to a few weeks ago.  I’m on the fence on a small resale at Riviera…..it’s been sitting there…..which is unusual because the small Riviera contracts usually go quickly.  Owner won’t consider any offers less than full asking price so there’s that,  The resale rules don’t bother me.  I have direct there and all other contracts are grandfathered in.  Congrats on your sale….wonder if it will get rofr’d.  I was shocked a few year ago when we sold our Saratoga contact to purchase Riviera.  DVC took it….
at a time when it was nearly unheard of.  We too won’t stay at AKL again.  Beautiful resort, nice big rooms but not fun taking a bus.  I actually drove to AK…..quicker than the bus.  MK was a nightmare.  
@rickandcindy23 I’m hoping to outlive my Boardwalk contract…2042 also.  I’ll be 86.  I want to see what will happen to the Boardwalk.  Old Key West is lovely also.  Great points chart, as is the Boardwalk.


----------



## dioxide45

ljmiii said:


> It does expire in 2042. Unless you purchased the 2057 extension. Or a court agrees with plaintiffs that the deed means what it says and that since WDW extended DVD's lease until 2057 and the DVC deeds don't expire until DVD's lease expires that the DVC deeds don't expire until 2057 either.
> 
> As for us, we put our relatively recently purchased AKV points on sale after we discovered that we really kind of hate staying there. We had previously stayed at Jambo without a car and thought that having a car along with the larger villas and extra bathroom at Kidani would make us enjoy AKV more...but we didn't.


Is there a pending lawsuit regarding the extension at OKW? I suspect this is why DVC is trying to buy back as much OKW as they can. They are really active on 2043 contracts there and also sent out that insulting buyback offer a while ago to OKW owners. If they have to honor 2057 for all owners, you can bet there will be those that paid for the extension asking for a refund.


----------



## TheHolleys87

dioxide45 said:


> Is there a pending lawsuit regarding the extension at OKW? I suspect this is why DVC is trying to buy back as much OKW as they can. They are really active on 2043 contracts there and also sent out that insulting buyback offer a while ago to OKW owners. If they have to honor 2057 for all owners, you can bet there will be those that paid for the extension asking for a refund.


For what it’s worth, I haven’t read of a lawsuit, but I have read of multiple owners’ attorneys pointing out to DVC exactly what you pointed out about the ground lease. And I’ve also read that when a 2042 contract is sold, the sellers have to sign a quit-claim for the extension before Disney will pass on its ROFR.


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## bnoble

dioxide45 said:


> If they have to honor 2057 for all owners, you can bet there will be those that paid for the extension asking for a refund.


Some percentage of owners signed the quit claim deed when the lease was extended--and probably a substantial number of them. As I understand it, anyone who didn't sign one (or didn't buy the extension) is being told they must do so as a condition of transfer if they sell their points. I will bet that's being applied to gratuitous transfers as well.

That leaves only people who (a) never signed the quit-claim, (b) didn't buy the extension, and (c) held the deed until 2042. I will bet there are very few people in that category, if only because of the Grim Reaper. I also suspect the Mouse will find some way to close the door on anyone who is left.


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## bizaro86

bnoble said:


> Some percentage of owners signed the quit claim deed when the lease was extended--and probably a substantial number of them. As I understand it, anyone who didn't sign one (or didn't buy the extension) is being told they must do so as a condition of transfer if they sell their points. I will bet that's being applied to gratuitous transfers as well.
> 
> That leaves only people who (a) never signed the quit-claim, (b) didn't buy the extension, and (c) held the deed until 2042. I will bet there are very few people in that category, if only because of the Grim Reaper. I also suspect the Mouse will find some way to close the door on anyone who is left.



I don't see how an hoa could require a quit claim to a developer to transfer real property. Doesn't seem likely to be legal to me. But of course someone would have to fight them on it.


----------



## dioxide45

bizaro86 said:


> I don't see how an hoa could require a quit claim to a developer to transfer real property. Doesn't seem likely to be legal to me. But of course someone would have to fight them on it.


The strong arm of Disney...


----------



## bnoble

Remember that the property is subject to the governing documents (it says so right on the deed); I wouldn't be surprised if there is a hook in those somewhere that accounts for this. For example, the contract agreed to by the original purchaser has a defined end date of 2042 for participation in the points program, which might give the Mouse a leg to stand on for both denial of use for those who don't sell and requiring the quit claim on transfer.

You might still own a fraction of the resort, but you will no longer have an ability to participate in the points program. What does that even mean? I don't know. I do know it's probably not going to be worth fighting about, in dollars and cents terms.


----------



## ljmiii

dioxide45 said:


> Is there a pending lawsuit regarding the extension at OKW? I suspect this is why DVC is trying to buy back as much OKW as they can...


No lawsuits yet, I doubt any court will grant standing until an OKW owner's 2042 points fail to appear in their account.

I know that when the OKW extension was offered in 2007, 19.1% of OKW points were extended. And my understanding is that most owners chose to neither pay for the extension nor sign the quit claim. 

It will be interesting to see how far DVC gets with their new-ish quit claim transfer requirement. Say in 2020, 70% of OKW was 2042 of which at most 20% had quit claims attached. So of that 50% of OKW left, what percentage will change hands in the next 20 years?


----------



## ljmiii

bnoble said:


> You might still own a fraction of the resort, but you will no longer have an ability to participate in the points program. What does that even mean? I don't know...


On the other hand, you still own that percentage of OKW so DVD/DVC can't sell it to someone else. If in 2041-ish around 25% of OKW is neither 2057 nor quit claimed that is a significant chuck of change. And missing 25% of dues would blow a significant hole in OKW's annual operating budget.


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## bnoble

ljmiii said:


> my understanding is that most owners chose to neither pay for the extension nor sign the quit claim.


Out of curiosity, what's that based on? My assumption is that responding was more likely than not, and that most owners would see the two options they were given and pick one. I could definitely be wrong about that though; it's a WAG.


----------



## bnoble

ljmiii said:


> And missing 25% of dues would blow a significant hole in OKW's annual operating budget.


What makes you think they won't redistribute the operating costs among the viable owners, just as happens at other resorts with non-performing deeds? That's probably a death spiral, but who (at Disney) cares? It only lasts 15 years.


----------



## dioxide45

bnoble said:


> Out of curiosity, what's that based on? My assumption is that responding was more likely than not, and that most owners would see the two options they were given and pick one. I could definitely be wrong about that though; it's a WAG.


From listening to podcasts that include some former DVC salespeople. When they offered the extension, it wasn't long after that they made call and mailing blitzes trying to get people to sign to indicate that they didn't want the extension. It would seem they had to sign the quit claim. I don't think simply not signing up for the extension is enough of a leg to stand on for Disney. Otherwise they wouldn't be going to the extra measures now to ROFR and buyback inventory as well as have sellers sign the quit claim upon sale. They seem nervous enough about the issue to indicate they beleive they don't have a legal leg to stand on.

I suspect they plan to get the population of those that are still original owners that didn't sign the quit claim so small to make any class small enough that most attorneys wouldn't bother with it.


----------



## ljmiii

bnoble said:


> Out of curiosity, what's that based on?...


Admittedly informal polling on the disboards, my usual source for all Disney info. I'm not a regular...it's like putting your mouth to a firehose to get a drink of water...but when I've needed some piece of Disney info I can usually find it there.

I learned about the OKW issue when DVC announced the Riviera restrictions. I had money set aside to buy at Riviera...actually a fixed week at Riviera...until the restrictions were announced. For what it's worth, the OKW fiasco wasn't the last time DVD's lawyers failed. The POS restricting resale buyers from staying at Riviera originally said, "Purchasers who purchase an Ownership Interest at any DVC Resort, other than Riviera Resort, from a Club Member who owned the Ownership Interest prior to January 19, 2019, are excluded from the prohibition set forth in this Paragraph 2." So all you had to do to stay at Riviera as a resale buyer at another resort was purchase from someone who owned before 1/19/19.


----------



## ljmiii

bnoble said:


> What makes you think they won't redistribute the operating costs among the viable owners...


I expect they will still be a viable concern in 2042 trying to sell DVC points - including all those quit claimed OKW 2042 points. You can hide a 2% rate, at 25% the dues become prohibitive. Plus I expect Disney won't want to give all OKW owners a reason to join a lawsuit instead of just those who own non quit claimed 2042 points.


----------



## TravelTime

Timeshare people never cease to amaze me. This is a vacation guys! What is all this talk about lawsuits? On many of the threads, people are threatening lawsuits. Is that how you want to spend your time on vacation?


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## bnoble

There are so many ways for Disney to get out of this. They can offer those last few years to "expiring" owners at a sharp discount over other sold-out resorts with comparable expirations. They probably can also find some other hook in the CC&Rs that lets them do what they want.

The idea that the Mouse is going to just let owners who are (a) still alive (b) didn't pay and (c) didn't sign just keep using the resort is not realistic, and anyone who thinks otherwise just hasn't been paying attention.


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## Dean

The membership is tied to the ground lease.  When they extended, they extended all contracts.  The only question was who would own the last 15 years.  Disney offered at $25 PP but with initially a $10 discount and later a $5 discount.  It’s been while but I’ve seen examples of resale buyers being able to extend because the previous owner never signed over.  The hook to forcing the issue was a special assessment but as I read the POS, there is nothing there that would allow a SA for this purpose.  It is my contention that anyone who didn’t sign over or pay will end up with an extended contract.  The question is how much of a gorilla is DVC willing to be.  They could lock the contract until the owner either pays or signs over.  I do believe legal action would be successful but would it be worth it?


----------



## dioxide45

bnoble said:


> There are so many ways for Disney to get out of this. They can offer those last few years to "expiring" owners at a sharp discount over other sold-out resorts with comparable expirations. They probably can also find some other hook in the CC&Rs that lets them do what they want.
> 
> The idea that the Mouse is going to just let owners who are (a) still alive (b) didn't pay and (c) didn't sign just keep using the resort is not realistic, and anyone who thinks otherwise just hasn't been paying attention.


If the Mouse had a way out, why haven’t they taken it yet? Why wait till the last few years before expiration. I suspect they don’t have a way out. If they did, they wouldn’t be buying up 2042 OKW contracts like they are and wouldn’t be forcing Quit Claims on sellers either.


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## bizaro86

ljmiii said:


> No lawsuits yet, I doubt any court will grant standing until an OKW owner's 2042 points fail to appear in their account.



I think you could get standing on a suit for conversion or something similar given they are demanding quit claim deeds to process transfers.


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## TheHolleys87

dioxide45 said:


> If the Mouse had a way out, why haven’t they taken it yet? Why wait till the last few years before expiration. I suspect they don’t have a way out. If they did, they wouldn’t be buying up 2042 OKW contracts like they are and wouldn’t be forcing Quit Claims on sellers either.


Some of us are fond of saying that the people who will make the decisions about closing out the 2042 resorts are just now graduating from business school.


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## chromeo

Glut is real, never seen this much VGC.  Change is in the air.

Rivera and Aulani are half sold, Grand Floridian is getting there in getting sold.  No annual passes, Polynesian and Disneyland tower looming.


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## cfabar1

Yes, and Reflections likely never being built, or at least in the fashion originally listed.  

I don’t think younger people want to feel “tied down”.  The beach resorts actually help offset that some, but they are not “big enough” in my view.  Also, many families “outgrow” disney, which is part of the problem.


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## Huskerpaul

When I started looking into DVC last March there were around 1300 contracts available according to https://dvc.market/listing/  Now there are over 1900 available.  There was a big surge in listing when the whole 'Don't say gay" deal erupted in Florida.


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## ljmiii

chromeo said:


> ...never seen this much VGC...Rivera and Aulani are half sold, Grand Floridian is getting there in getting sold...Polynesian and Disneyland tower looming.


People are starting to put their VGC on the market because they are afraid of what will happen to the prices of VGC once DVC starts selling the Disneyland Tower. We thought about it...but the DL tower skews heavily toward studios and is farther away. We'll keep our 2BRs with a private entrance to California Adventure, thank you.

Riviera has the problem that once DVC started selling new VGF contracts there was no reason to put up with resale restrictions if you want to buy direct. If DVC's no longer ROFR'ing Poly contracts means the same will happen to the new Poly construction, Riviera will continue to be the last, worst choice for the foreseeable future.


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## Huskerpaul

ljmiii said:


> If DVC's no longer ROFR'ing Poly contracts means the same will happen to the new Poly construction, Riviera will continue to be the last, worst choice for the foreseeable future.


There has not been a single reported ROFR at Poly for many months now.  I agree with your assessment, the new tower will be made part of the existing association and therefore no resale restrictions like Riv.


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## TravelTime

Huskerpaul said:


> 'Don't say gay" deal erupted in Florida.



The mis-labeling of this law was strange to me. It had little to do with being gay or people teaching about being gay.


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## TravelTime

We sold about 8 or 9 contracts right as Covid was hitting. I did not own them for long so I was a little below break even. People say DVC always goes up and they make money on them. This was not my experience owning the contracts about 3 years. You need to own them longer and take closing costs into account. I assumed priced went up during Covid but I have not looked since I sold.


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## Huskerpaul

TravelTime said:


> The mis-labeling of this law was strange to me. It had little to do with being gay or people teaching about being gay.


The fact that some feel that way is why I used quotation marks around the term.  Not trying to offend.  If I had used the official name of the legislation few would know what I was referring to.


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## blondietink

I think a lot of it has to do with covid and the border shut downs.  People in Europe who own got screwed as well as many of the people in Canada.  Nobody could travel unless they jumped through a lot of hoops.  It just wasn't worth it to many.  People are realizing also that owning a piece of the mouse isn't for everybody forever.  We bought 17 years ago and used to go several times per year.  Now we vacation in other areas of the country and world and save our points to go on longer DVC vacations.


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## carl2591

rickandcindy23 said:


> Rent your points by booking a studio in a popular week and list it on go-koala.com for about $17.50 a point.  Then use that money elsewhere.  Wait for a better time to sell.
> 
> Renting is easy and free to list at go-koala.com because they get money after it rents, not before it rents.  Redweek also works.



Hey guys,, have you had good luck with Koala.. the site kinda sucks to me.. I tried to put surfside in and it go to orlando.. when i finally did get to Grand Palms it appears there are no units..  I used redweek in the past and got good results.. I usually reserve the 2 bd unit for week 28, the week after the 4th, and bank the hotel side for TPU's.


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## SML123

Kat05 said:


> We are contemplating selling our DVC. We've been members since 2006 and have enjoyed numerous vacations but ended up renting our points out the last couple of years. It seems our adult children and teenage grandchildren aren't as interested in going any more on top of the cost. I contacted Disney and they are buying back contracts and I was given a price over the phone. It seems very quick and easy and it's several thousand more than we paid. I'm struggling with what to do!



I see so many people getting ripped off because we are not in the business of money transfers or contracts. If Disney will buy it back for more than you paid, it would be a no brainer for me. Take the easy path where its painless and you wont get ripped off when you sign the contract and the funds arent transferred. Sometimes, a sure thing with a legit company is better than a little more money with a few unknowns thrown in.


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## noreenkate

SML123 said:


> I see so many people getting ripped off because we are not in the business of money transfers or contracts. If Disney will buy it back for more than you paid, it would be a no brainer for me. Take the easy path where its painless and you wont get ripped off when you sign the contract and the funds arent transferred. Sometimes, a sure thing with a legit company is better than a little more money with a few unknowns thrown in.



Agreed and I think it goes both ways right now as far as buying and selling- more and more reports of people getting screwed with resale contracts- things like owners transferring points out after estoppal or rofr w/ new owner not knowing till contract is loaded months later...


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## ocdb8r

noreenkate said:


> Agreed and I think it goes both ways right now as far as buying and selling- more and more reports of people getting screwed with resale contracts- things like owners transferring points out after estoppal or rofr w/ new owner not knowing till contract is loaded months later...


Is this with regular brokers?!?!  That's terrible!  The resale market definitely seems well saturated and brokers who have been living off of years of easy sales may not be up to the task.


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## nomoretslt

ocdb8r said:


> Is this with regular brokers?!?!  That's terrible!  The resale market definitely seems well saturated and brokers who have been living off of years of easy sales may not be up to the task.


I’ve bought and sold a number of contracts thru two very reputable companies.  Never had any issues.  Of course if someone lists their contract and then goes ahead and makes a reservation without telling the company, not really the companies fault.  Some people will try and get over on others.  The two I used, when listing a contract would ask if you have any upcoming reservations.  If you did, then a notation would be on the listing “cannot close until after such and such date”.  When buying, they would double check before closing (I think thru DVC directly).  
DVC was never in the business of buying back contracts in the past, so this is relatively new.  I have read a couple reports where their offer is ridiculously low.  I’ve also read that they will sometimes contact you to see if you are interested in selling.  But I’m sure they have an ulterior motive.   Think what’s going to happen is a lot of people will start defaulting on their loans so lots of foreclsoures.  There always seems to be an increase in listings after the new dues bills come out too….they went up as usual.
Riviera resale contracts were being picked up pretty quickly until recently.  I already have 2 100 point contracts, but I would not hesitate to buy more on resale If I wanted more.  Direct sales have been slow, especially during the pandemic.  There is a lot of negativity directed towards this resort.  We absolutely love it.  Great location, beautiful rooms, the studios are outstanding and the Tower rooms are great for short stays.  I’m of the opinion that the new Poly tower will also have resale restrictions….but time will tell.  It’s a lot bigger than I thought it would be.  I noticed there is a huge glut of Poly listings.
We have a nice portfolio of points and resorts.  BLT, BWV and RIV.  All great locations.  When we tire of Disney we will rent out our points and as we get older will have a discussion with the kids.  If they don’t want DVC after we go to the great timeshare in the sky, they can sell without guilt.


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## noreenkate

ocdb8r said:


> Is this with regular brokers?!?!  That's terrible!  The resale market definitely seems well saturated and brokers who have been living off of years of easy sales may not be up to the task.



The more reliable resale brokers seem to either transfer point to make up the missing difference or rent the new owner a restoration to cover...
Which is somewhat fair depending on what new owner had plans for- 
one circumstance that I know of broker offered to transfer points but new owner was looking to bank the current u/y into the next and borrow  for  an extended trip w/family- temp broker points were fine but now home resort and u/y didn't line up...


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## rickandcindy23

carl2591 said:


> Hey guys,, have you had good luck with Koala.. the site kinda sucks to me.. I tried to put surfside in and it go to orlando.. when i finally did get to Grand Palms it appears there are no units..  I used redweek in the past and got good results.. I usually reserve the 2 bd unit for week 28, the week after the 4th, and bank the hotel side for TPU's.


Not really on the topic of Disney, but yes, I do rent through go-koala.com and find that most people rent dates that are closer in than Redweek.  But I love Redweek, too, I just don't want to list any Disney on Redweek after they did a three-way call with Disney and me to verify.  

The fact is, anything you have on Redweek 1) you paid to list, so why would you pay to list something you don't have? 2) you paid extra to get it verified, and that would be crazy to not have the listing to rent. 3) I could cancel something at any time, so why call to confirm it? 4) I already sent in the confirmation for Redweek to see that it's valid and entered that confirmation # into my listing.  

Redweek makes me crazy at times.  I do not want the people at Disney to know that I have reservations listed for rent.  Let them think I am renting to friends/ family.


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## rickandcindy23

I would list with sellingtimeshares.net, Seth Nock's company, but I would try to deal with Seth personally and not with anyone else.


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## Kat05

SML123 said:


> I see so many people getting ripped off because we are not in the business of money transfers or contracts. If Disney will buy it back for more than you paid, it would be a no brainer for me. Take the easy path where its painless and you wont get ripped off when you sign the contract and the funds arent transferred. Sometimes, a sure thing with a legit company is better than a little more money with a few unknowns thrown in.


We did end up selling our DVC back to Disney. It was very fast and easy and we received $6400 more than we originally paid.


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## AnnaS

Kat05 said:


> We did end up selling our DVC back to Disney. It was very fast and easy and we received $6400 more than we originally paid.



I bet it was quick and easy - as fast as it is to buying.


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