# Abound! The combined Marriott/Vistana integrated exchange program now has a name.



## Aviator621 (Jun 16, 2022)

Introducing Abound by Marriott Vacations™ | Marriott Vacations Worldwide
					

The Investor Relations website contains information about Marriott Vacations Worldwide's business for stockholders, potential investors, and financial analysts.




					ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com


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## SueDonJ (Jun 16, 2022)

_*Moderator Note*: This thread will serve as the first to start delving into the known and verified official information from Marriott/Vistana about the integration and Abound. If what you want to talk about is still speculation, please use either of these threads:_

Marriott TUG Forum: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming Anticipated Integration ...
Vistana TUG Forum: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming Anticipated Integration ...

***************
@Aviator621, thanks for this post and congratulations on beating everyone else to the punch! (Don't laugh - it's a "get" considering all the people waiting for it!) I hope you don't mind I've changed the title a bit to help with the invariable searches.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> @Aviator621, thanks for this post and congratulations on beating everyone else to the punch! (Don't laugh - it's a "get" considering all the people waiting for it!) I hope you don't mind I've changed the title a bit to help with the invariable searches.


It was posted over in the Vistana forum about 20 minutes earlier...








						Marriott Abound
					

*Someone reported this post and requested a merge with the main thread or Marriott thread.  I think this topic is too important to bury in another thread. DeniseM  -------------------------------...




					tugbbs.com


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## SueDonJ (Jun 16, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> It was posted over in the Vistana forum about 20 minutes earlier...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, I considered that as soon as I'd posted and just finished editing my post. Doh!


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

Perhaps this should still be combined with the ongoing thread in the Marriott forum as to not fragment the discussion?


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## Aviator621 (Jun 16, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> It was posted over in the Vistana forum about 20 minutes earlier...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


C'mon, just let me feel important and in the know!


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## buzglyd (Jun 16, 2022)

Who comes up with these names? Clearly the Bonvoy people weren’t canned after that dumb name.

Will we start claiming we got Abounded?


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

buzglyd said:


> Who comes up with these names? Clearly the Bonvoy people weren’t canned after that dumb name.
> 
> Will we start claiming we got Abounded?


@NiteMaire coined a term Abounced.


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## jwalk03 (Jun 16, 2022)

buzglyd said:


> Who comes up with these names? Clearly the Bonvoy people weren’t canned after that dumb name.
> 
> Will we start claiming we got Abounded?



AGREED!  lol


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

I actually don't mind the name "Abound". Much better than what I originally thought of Bonvoy. Sadly, they probably spend tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars for some marketing group to come up with these.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 16, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Perhaps this should still be combined with the ongoing thread in the Marriott forum as to not fragment the discussion?


No, I don't think so. The way that DaveM handled the transition from speculation about the Destination Club to specifics when it was officially introduced, which included eventually closing that monster spec thread, is a good precedent for separating speculation from reality. Plus keeping this thread separate - with the Abound title prominent - will make it easy to find when the details start coming out.


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## buzglyd (Jun 16, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I actually don't mind the name "Abound". Much better than what I originally thought of Bonvoy. Sadly, they probably spend tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars for some marketing group to come up with these.



It’s like when the marketing group sat around for days and came up with Jeb!


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## SueDonJ (Jun 16, 2022)

The small and petty in me got a chuckle out of SurfWatch's beachfront pool getting a place of prominence in the Abound promotional video (thinking of you, Marty ) but otherwise, I WANT DETAILS.

Oh, I do like the name for whatever that's worth.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> The small and petty in me got a chuckle out of SurfWatch's beachfront pool getting a place of prominence in the Abound promotional video (thinking of you, Marty ) but otherwise, I WANT DETAILS.
> 
> Oh, I do like the name for whatever that's worth.


That Surfwatch clip was the only one that I could actually recognize from an actual MVC or Vistana property. Everything else looked to be b-roll that could have come from any of the dozens of online services that sell b-roll video. They even titled one of their videos as _Abound-Manifesto-*B-Roll.*_


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

I also don't like the football and large pool float at the pool clips  Don't give anyone any ideas...


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## SueDonJ (Jun 16, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> That Surfwatch clip was the only one that I could actually recognize from an actual MVC or Vistana property. Everything else looked to be b-roll that could have come from any of the dozens of online services that sell b-roll video. They even titled one of their videos as _Abound-Manifesto-*B-Roll.*_


So what you're effectively saying is, Marriott considers SurfWatch to be THE BEST SUPERDUPER RESORT IN ALL THE WORLD, right? That's what I thought, too.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

****************
Now as moderator, I intend to clear out all these silly fluff posts from the start of this thread when details about Abound start emerging. Feel free to join in the fun, but don't post anything that you want saved for posterity.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

So this just seems like a rebranding of the Destinations Program?


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## SueDonJ (Jun 16, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> So this just seems like a rebranding of the Destinations Program?


That's what I'm wondering, was actually just writing a post asking if you know where/how to search for the legal papers that show a name change if that's what's happening??


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 16, 2022)

New Website?? Uh oh...


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> That's what I'm wondering, was actually just writing a post asking if you know where/how to search for the legal papers that show a name change if that's what's happening??


I don't know if there is any legal paperwork on a name change, but it was posted in the similar thread in the Vistana forum that they did register the new name. They could simply register the new name, start using it and drop all references to the old name in marketing.








						Marriott Abound
					

*Someone reported this post and requested a merge with the main thread or Marriott thread.  I think this topic is too important to bury in another thread. DeniseM  -------------------------------...




					tugbbs.com


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

Steve Fatula said:


> New Website?? Uh oh...


I got the impression that the new website reference may just be a marketing site and not something we would all use to make reservations.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 16, 2022)

I have registered for the Marriott Vacations Worldwide Investor Day presentation which starts at 12:30pm EDT. I will report back later today. It lasts until after 4pm.

Here are three slides on ABOUND from the presentation deck:


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 16, 2022)

I really dislike the Vistana name. I hope everything changes to the Abound name.


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## Fasttr (Jun 16, 2022)

Now do we have to start calling them A-Points vs DC points?


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## Aviator621 (Jun 16, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I have registered for the Marriott Vacations Worldwide Investor Day presentation which starts at 12:30pm EDT. I will report back later today. It lasts until after 4pm.
> 
> Here are three slides on ABOUND from the presentation deck:
> 
> ...


 When I see words like 'seamless, holistic, and robust' in a corporate presentation I start to get worried....


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## dsmrp (Jun 16, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> Oh, I do like the name for whatever that's worth.



The name is alright and makes sense to me, as in 'the resort exchange landscape _abounds_ with new options'.  I think the execs liked that.


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## BigDawgTUG (Jun 16, 2022)

I like the touted benefit of "Reduces call volume," which assumes that one day they might have a fully functioning website!


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I have registered for the Marriott Vacations Worldwide Investor Day presentation which starts at 12:30pm EDT. I will report back later today. It lasts until after 4pm.
> 
> Here are three slides on ABOUND from the presentation deck:
> 
> ...


Oh boy! Starting to talk about digital. Not a good track record there...


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## kds4 (Jun 16, 2022)

buzglyd said:


> Who comes up with these names? Clearly the Bonvoy people weren’t canned after that dumb name.
> 
> Will we start claiming we got Abounded?



There will likely be an abundance of abounding.


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## rthib (Jun 16, 2022)

I am going to be optimistic and assume that they have been spending all there time on the new website and that is the reason they haven’t fixed anything on old one


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## NiteMaire (Jun 16, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> @NiteMaire coined a term Abounced.


I had also considered two taglines/mottos for BonVoy
BonVoy: stopping short of Bon Voyage
BonVoy: agelessly short of Bon Voyage

However, I'm a huge Marriott (hotel and TS) fan, and I don't really mean it.  I'm Lifetime Titanium (earned the hard way with hotel stays and spending).  Have they changed benefits for the worse? Yes, but they are not alone; all programs are both good and bad. 


Aviator621 said:


> When I see words like 'seamless, holistic, and robust' in a corporate presentation I start to get worried....


_[Searches buzzword bingo card] _ BINGO!!!!


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## JIMinNC (Jun 16, 2022)

Investor Day is on a 15 minute break. Here is what they said about ABOUND in the first segment:

Common currency will be called ClubPoints
No incremental cost for owners to join ABOUND. It will be an annual election. Those who want to continue to use their legacy ownership can elect to do so on an annual basis if they so choose. ABOUND was described as an overlay over existing owner rights, but it will be delivered through a common reservation platform that will cross all brands.
ABOUND launch to owners will be "later this summer"
Major multi-year project called "Vacation Next Initiative" that will transform the digital experience for CSRs and Online for owners and prospects. ABOUND is Phase 1.
Implementing a truly consolidated owner reservation platform for all Marriott brands (MVC/Westin/Sheraton etc) for both CSRs in the call center and owners through online digital platforms
Working with the tech company SalesForce to implement new technologies that will consolidate profile information and transactional functionality across all ownerships within the Marriott-branded portfolio both for CSRs and direct online.
Eventually, everything will be fully-bookable online - no need to call in, even for things like Explorer collection, etc. I assume this may also mean online cancellations may come.
This is a three-year technology journey and they are roughly one year into that journey. Enhancements will come in phases with ABOUND launch later this summer being the first phase.
Simultaneously retiring legacy systems and adding new technology.
That's it for now.


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## DanCali (Jun 16, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Investor Day is on a 15 minute break. Here is what they said about ABOUND in the first segment:
> 
> Common currency will be called ClubPoints
> No incremental cost for owners to join ABOUND. It will be an annual election. Those who want to continue to use their legacy ownership can elect to do so on an annual basis if they so choose. ABOUND was described as an overlay over existing owner rights, but it will be delivered through a common reservation platform that will cross all brands.
> ...



And the stock has been on a one way roll downhill all day, like many other stocks, but loss of 11.5% is quite a bit of underperformance even on a down market day.

Seems like the market might expect some challenges ahead...


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 16, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Investor Day is on a 15 minute break. Here is what they said about ABOUND in the first segment:
> 
> 
> No incremental cost for owners to join ABOUND. It will be an annual election. Those who want to continue to use their legacy ownership can elect to do so on an annual basis if they so choose. ABOUND was described as an overlay over existing owner rights, but it will be delivered through a common reservation platform that will cross all brands.



Thank you for sharing. I wonder if "owners" include resale owners. Or are we considered a non-recognized lower class?


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thank you for sharing. I wonder if "owners" include resale owners. Or are we considered a non-recognized lower class?


That is still a big unanswered question and probably something we won't get answered on the Investor Day webcast. I expect who is eligible won't be answered until go live "later this summer".


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## jont (Jun 16, 2022)

Fasttr said:


> Now do we have to start calling them A-Points vs DC points?


Are you going to be a bounder ? Like Elaine’s friend from England. Maybe you can get Banya’s suit


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## JIMinNC (Jun 16, 2022)

There were a few more ABOUND tidbits in the second segment:

Once ABOUND launches, all owners across all Marriott brands will be on the same owner recognition levels.
Once ABOUND launches, all sales centers across all Marriott brands will sell only ABOUND - i.e. the same product sold everywhere, but presumably with MVC logo/graphics at those sales centers, Westin logo/graphics at those centers, etc. All new sales will be ABOUND sales.
In response to a question about what percentage of owners they expect will adopt ABOUND, CEO Steve Weisz said 40% of legacy MVC Weeks owners still stay within the legacy weeks system and do not use points, so he didn't offer a forecast of conversion rate to ABOUND.
The question posed above by @CalGalTraveler  "How will resale owners be impacted?" is a detail that was not addressed in this very high-level presentation.
There were also a few comments about legacy week repurchases (ROFR), potential for new locations, close rate, points pricing, etc. that TUGgers may find interesting. After the final segment on Financials is over, I'll post those other general comments in a separate thread so this can stay focused on ABOUND.


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## TravelTime (Jun 16, 2022)

So this was the “big” announcement we were all waiting for.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 16, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> So this was the “big” announcement we were all waiting for.


So big!  Hilarious, but I like the name better than Vistana.  

I am anxious to see how they will combine everything we own into one big log-in.  It should be entertaining.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> There were a few more ABOUND tidbits in the second segment:
> 
> Once ABOUND launches, all owners across all Marriott brands will be on the same owner recognition levels.
> Once ABOUND launches, all sales centers across all Marriott brands will sell only ABOUND - i.e. the same product sold everywhere, but presumably with MVC logo/graphics at those sales centers, Westin logo/graphics at those centers, etc. All new sales will be ABOUND sales.
> ...


I also found interesting that they are sitting on $600 million of unsold inventory. One issue I see with that inventory is that much of it probably sits outside the US in Bali and Costa Rica. That inventory is probably harder to sell than US domestic inventory.


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## VacationForever (Jun 16, 2022)

I hate the name but whatever.  There is only 1 feature which I want in the new system, which is the ability to cancel a reservation.  Currently, Vistana system can do it but not MVC system.


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## rickxylon (Jun 16, 2022)

I would hope we would be able to book online at 13months+


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## dioxide45 (Jun 16, 2022)

rickxylon said:


> I would hope we would be able to book online at 13months+


Point owners can already do that. I doubt they will add that for the legacy weeks program. If they haven't done it in 12 years, I don't see them doing it now.


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## Fasttr (Jun 16, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> ….
> [*]Common currency will be called ClubPoints
> …..


So if DC Points were Destination Club Points….
Perhaps the combined program points should be referred to as… 
AC Points for Abound Club Points.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 16, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thank you for sharing. I wonder if "owners" include resale owners. Or are we considered a non-recognized lower class?


Good question.  I would say we will be on the bottom rung somewhere.  The Class System in Marriott Abound.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 16, 2022)

Final Financial segment had nothing new on ABOUND, but there were a few other things I'll include in a separate thread shortly.


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## TravelTime (Jun 16, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> There were a few more ABOUND tidbits in the second segment:
> 
> Once ABOUND launches, all owners across all Marriott brands will be on the same owner recognition levels.
> Once ABOUND launches, all sales centers across all Marriott brands will sell only ABOUND - i.e. the same product sold everywhere, but presumably with MVC logo/graphics at those sales centers, Westin logo/graphics at those centers, etc. All new sales will be ABOUND sales.
> ...



What do they mean by getting rid of recognition levels? Did they explain that? It makes no sense to get rid of recognition levels. The motivation to buy more points will go away because they often sell more points based on promoting the extra benefits you get at higher levels. Plus what about exsiting people who already get these benefits based on recognition level? Now they would be downgraded. If anything, I thought they should enhance the higher benefits levels to increase motivation to buy more points. I am glad I decided not to enroll my Vistana week before the launch since the changes are going in the opposite direction of what I expected.


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## rickxylon (Jun 16, 2022)

This popped up on the login page


We’re Excited to Announce
Abound by Marriott Vacations™

Through a new affiliation with the Vistana Signature Network®, Abound (previously known as the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program) is designed to give you more brands, more destinations, and more choices to make your
vacation life even better.

We’re working hard to launch later this summer, so watch for more details
in the coming weeks.


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## scootr5 (Jun 16, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thank you for sharing. I wonder if "owners" include resale owners. Or are we considered a non-recognized lower class?



My thoughts exactly


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## Fasttr (Jun 16, 2022)

Now may be a good time to take screen shots of your existing reservations and points balances before MVC makes more “enhancements” to the website.


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## TravelTime (Jun 16, 2022)

Owners means everyone but that does not mean resale owners get the same benefits as enrolled owners.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 16, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> What do they mean by getting rid of recognition levels? Did they explain that? It makes no sense to get rid of recognition levels. The motivation to buy more points will go away because they often sell more points based on promoting the extra benefits you get at higher levels. Plus what about exsiting people who already get these benefits based on recognition level? Now they would be downgraded. If anything, I thought they should enhance the higher benefits levels to increase motivation to buy more points. I am glad I decided not to enroll my Vistana week before the launch since the changes are going in the opposite direction of what I expected.



My post above did not say they were getting rid of recognition levels. They said that once ABOUND launches, all owners across all Marriott brands will be on the *same* owner recognition levels. So, I assume this means either the MVC Basic, Select, Executive, Presidential, Chairman levels or some new recognition structure for ABOUND,


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## Fasttr (Jun 16, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> What do they mean by getting rid of recognition levels? Did they explain that? It makes no sense to get rid of recognition levels. The motivation to buy more points will go away because they often sell more points based on promoting the extra benefits you get at higher levels. Plus what about exsiting people who already get these benefits based on recognition level? Now they would be downgraded. If anything, I thought they should enhance the higher benefits levels to increase motivation to buy more points. I am glad I decided not to enroll my Vistana week before the launch since the changes are going in the opposite direction of what I expected.


I don’t believe they meant they were getting rid of ownership levels, I took that to mean they are normalizing the levels across all brands (MVC, Vistana, etc will all have same levels).


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## sea&ski (Jun 16, 2022)

Fasttr said:


> So if DC Points were Destination Club Points….
> Perhaps the combined program points should be referred to as…
> AC Points for Abound Club Points.


Why did no one pick up on the AC-DC riff?


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## JIMinNC (Jun 16, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I also found interesting that they are sitting on $600 million of unsold inventory. One issue I see with that inventory is that much of it probably sits outside the US in Bali and Costa Rica. That inventory is probably harder to sell than US domestic inventory.



It's more than that. They meant $600 million in *EXCESS* inventory, meaning $600 million more than their target. If you look at the separate thread I started on the non-ABOUND topics, you will see they actually have $1.18 billion of inventory on their books, which represents about 5 years of inventory, whereas their target is 1.5-2 years. They hope to work down their inventory levels to $760-$790 million by about 2025.

Those numbers are also for all of MVW and include Welk/Hyatt inventory. So, I suspect they will need to look at inventory levels within each of their two systems and increase repurchases or new development whenever each of the two systems reaches their target levels.


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## TravelTime (Jun 16, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> My post above did not say they were getting rid of recognition levels. They said that once ABOUND launches, all owners across all Marriott brands will be on the *same* owner recognition levels. So, I assume this means either the MVC Basic, Select, Executive, Presidential, Chairman levels or some new recognition structure for ABOUND,



When you said “on the *same* owner recognition levels” it sounded like there would not longer be levels. How can everyone be on the same owner recognition levels and there still be different levels? I am confused.


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## TravelTime (Jun 16, 2022)

Fasttr said:


> I don’t believe they meant they were getting rid of ownership levels, I took that to mean they are normalizing the levels across all brands (MVC, Vistana, etc will all have same levels).



Oh, okay, that makes sense. The way it was worded is what confused me.


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## Aviator621 (Jun 16, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> When you said “on the *same* owner recognition levels” it sounded like there would not longer be levels. How can everyone be on the same owner recognition levels and there still be different levels? I am confused.


I think they mean that the current Marriott levels will be imported over to the Sheraton/Westin owners (or vice versa) so that all programs share the same recognition levels


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## JIMinNC (Jun 16, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> When you said “on the *same* owner recognition levels” it sounded like there would not longer be levels. How can everyone be on the same owner recognition levels and there still be different levels? I am confused.



As @Fasttr noted, they meant owners from both the MVC side and Vistana side of ABOUND will now use the _*same*_ recognition tiers instead of MVC having one tier structure and Vistana another tier structure.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 16, 2022)

Definition of Abound from Google:  To be plentiful; to be very prevalent; to overflow. To be copiously supplied; to be wealthy in; to teem with; -- followed by in or with.

I don't think they are meaning for us to be plentiful and overflowing, but I think Marriott is thinking they will be those things.  Kind of funny.  I took it to mean another kind of bound, like when people say, "I am Disney bound," or "I am Maui bound."

I am abound for Vancouver in just a few weeks.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 16, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Oh, okay, that makes sense. The way it was worded is what confused me.


They should maybe have someone write that can communicate better, but maybe they want to confuse people?  

I still like the name of it.  I hope I never see Vistana again after the name change.  I don't want to log into Vistana, anymore.  The website is bad.  I need to call to make my SBP reservations.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 16, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> They should maybe have someone write that can communicate better, but maybe they want to confuse people?


The wording that confused @TravelTime was my summary wording of what was spoken during the presentation, not wording crafted by Marriott Vacations Worldwide. So any confusion was from me, not Marriott. They were very clear in their presentation.


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## hangloose (Jun 16, 2022)

I just need to know if and when I can enroll my post 06/20/2010 re-sale weeks  without a corresponding Pts purchase.  I am still hopeful they will allow this at time point in time…at a small cost to enroll .


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## VacationForever (Jun 16, 2022)

hangloose said:


> I just need to know if and when I can enroll my post 06/20/2010 re-sale weeks  without a corresponding Pts purchase.  I am still hopeful they will allow this at time point in time…at a small cost to enroll .


Since they are sitting on more inventory than they like, they will be more than happy to sell you some of those inventory to enroll your post June 2010 resale weeks!


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 16, 2022)

hangloose said:


> I just need to know if and when I can enroll my post 06/20/2010 re-sale weeks  without a corresponding Pts purchase.  I am still hopeful they will allow this at time point in time…at a small cost to enroll .


My favorite post of the day!  When pigs fly.  I am in the same place as you.


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## gln60 (Jun 16, 2022)

Incompetence Abounds


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## Bunk (Jun 16, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I wonder if "owners" include resale owners. Or are we considered a non-recognized lower class?



They haven't decided whether to call you Downward Bound or Steerage Bound


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## kozykritter (Jun 16, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> What do they mean by getting rid of recognition levels? Did they explain that? It makes no sense to get rid of recognition levels. The motivation to buy more points will go away because they often sell more points based on promoting the extra benefits you get at higher levels. Plus what about exsiting people who already get these benefits based on recognition level? Now they would be downgraded. If anything, I thought they should enhance the higher benefits levels to increase motivation to buy more points. I am glad I decided not to enroll my Vistana week before the launch since the changes are going in the opposite direction of what I expected.


I think you're misread what the post said. Recognition levels aren't going away. Once the combined program platform launches, they are going to sync up the three Vistana elite levels to match the existing ones at MVC, currently pegged to Executive, Presidential and Chairman. . This information has been shared consistently through reports on sales presentations. I think they might also map some non-elite Vistana members into the Select level at MVC using some appropriate option level. It all makes sense to me if you are trying to combine two programs without truly doing it


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## TravelTime (Jun 16, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> I think you're misread what the post said. Recognition levels aren't going away. Once the combined program platform launches, they are going to sync up the three Vistana elite levels to match the existing ones at MVC, currently pegged to Executive, Presidential and Chairman. . This information has been shared consistently through reports on sales presentations. I think they might even map some non-elite Vistana members into the Select level at MVC using some appropriate option level. It all makes sense to me if you are trying to combine two programs without truly doing it



This has now been clarified to me 3x. Jim said the way he initially wrote it was confusing.


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## kozykritter (Jun 16, 2022)

rickxylon said:


> This popped up on the login page
> 
> 
> We’re Excited to Announce
> ...


It makes you wonder if they're basically just renaming the MVC exchange system where DP flow through. I was told at a recent presentation that that is where the Vistana elected inventory will sit along with enrolled week owners elected inventory. Would that theoretically mean that this would provide no access to DC trust inventory unless Marriott continues there practice of dumping it into the exchange company, often 12 months out?


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## kozykritter (Jun 16, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> This has now been clarified to me 3x. Jim said the way he initially wrote it was confusing.


I'm a super slow typist on my phone so sorry to hit you over the head with it again.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 16, 2022)

I am soooooo tired of hearing about the labor pains. I want to see the baby.

I really don’t care about all the teasers that either tell us what we already know or something so irrelevant it puts me to sleep.

Really? The name of the product? That’s not exactly vacation planning changing news. I guess it does distract from the fact their IT can’t seem to get the website working.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 17, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> It makes you wonder if they're basically just renaming the MVC exchange system where DP flow through. I was told at a recent presentation that that is where the Vistana elected inventory will sit along with enrolled week owners elected inventory. Would that theoretically mean that this would provide no access to DC trust inventory unless Marriott continues there practice of dumping it into the exchange company, often 12 months out?



I think you are correct that the new ABOUND program sounds like it's basically a re-branding of the current Marriott Destination Club to reflect the broadening of the program to include Westin/Sheraton. The way I interpreted how kit all will work (some of this was not explicitly said today, but is just my inference based on what we know about how these programs work):

Later this summer, all Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton sales centers will begin exclusively selling ABOUND ClubPoints. No more Destination Club Points. No more Westin Flex. No more Sheraton Flex. No more Aventuras Flex. ABOUND Points will be sold everywhere. There perhaps may still be multiple trusts for legal reasons (especially as it relates to Aventuras), but that will be behind the scenes and transparent to the buyer.
Existing owners of eligible legacy Westin/Sheraton/Marriott weeks will have the option to choose to enroll in ABOUND and elect their weeks for ABOUND ClubPoints just as Marriott enrolled owners do with Destination Points today. Based on the points charts that some TUGgers have seen at sales presentations, it would seem for enrolled Marriott week owners and Marriott trust owners, their Destination Points may just be automatically converted to ABOUND ClubPoints on launch day. Westin/Sheraton owners will then have the option to begin enrolling/electing their week/FlexPoints to ABOUND ClubPoints on an annual basis.
All transaction/reservation capabilities will convert to a single technology platform, meaning Marriott, Westin, and Vistana owners will begin using the same new ABOUND web site to book all their ownership vacations - those using ABOUND ClubPoints, as well as bookings for legacy Marriott/Westin/Sheraton weeks and legacy StarOptions/FlexOptions, etc. 
Given all that, I would presume they would continue to use the existing Internal Exchange Company (maybe renamed the ABOUND Exchange Company) to co-mingle inventory from the ABOUND Trust, whatever legacy Vistana FlexTrusts survive, elected Marriott weeks, and elected Westin/Sheraton weeks.
While sales people always try to use the "you have to buy trust points to access trust inventory argument", in practice, we have found that almost all inventory gets put into the Exchange. While there is certainly no guarantee that will always happen, so far at least, MVW has given no indication that is a direction they are likely to go...but anything can change, I guess.


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## kozykritter (Jun 17, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> All transaction/reservation capabilities will convert to a single technology platform, meaning Marriott, Westin, and Vistana owners will begin using the same new ABOUND web site to book all their ownership vacations - those using ABOUND ClubPoints, as well as bookings for legacy Marriott/Westin/Sheraton weeks and legacy StarOptions/FlexOptions, etc.


Thanks for laying that all out! You've gone above and beyond. I find it particularly helpful personally because I just added MVC points this week to become a hybrid Vistana-Marriott owner.

What you've said in this section about the single technology platform fits what I've been observing from the beginning about them merging all Vistana accounts on to Marriott's IT platform, and now we know sort of what that mechanism will look like. This combined new form also explains why they are applying the same recognition levels to both timeshare programs as well as charging only one annual club dues regardless if you own in both systems.


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## gln60 (Jun 17, 2022)

dougp26364 said:


> I am soooooo tired of hearing about the labor pains. I want to see the baby.
> 
> I really don’t care about all the teasers that either tell us what we already know or something so irrelevant is puts me to sleep. Really? The name of the product? That’s not exactly vacation planning changing news. I guess it does distract from the fact their IT can’t seem to get the website working.


You can put a tuxedo on a hobo…but it’s still a hobo


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## emeryjre (Jun 17, 2022)

dougp26364 said:


> I am soooooo tired of hearing about the labor pains. I want to see the baby.
> 
> I really don’t care about all the teasers that either tell us what we already know or something so irrelevant is puts me to sleep. Really? The name of the product? That’s not exactly vacation planning changing news. I guess it does distract from the fact their IT can’t seem to get the website working.


I love all the speculation presented as a "done deal" as well.  
We should have a contest.  
Best speculation that actually shows up in the program wins a gold star and a pass to hold their pool chair all day with just a towel.


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## dj_drf (Jun 17, 2022)

Aviator621 said:


> When I see words like 'seamless, holistic, and robust' in a corporate presentation I start to get worried....


So you are okay with synergistic, LOL.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

emeryjre said:


> I love all the speculation presented as a "done deal" as well.
> We should have a contest.
> Best speculation that actually shows up in the program wins a gold star and a pass to hold their pool chair all day with just a towel.


I am not sure exactly what speculation you are referring to, but it seems that a combined program is pretty much a done deal and Abound will be the exchange program mechanism that supports it. Of course the devil is in the details and there is still a lot we don't know there, but speculating is fun and I don't really see any of it being presented as a "done deal".


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## CPNY (Jun 17, 2022)

@JIMinNC thank you for all of the info you gathered and shared with us. It’s very much appreciated


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## emeryjre (Jun 17, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure exactly what speculation you are referring to, but it seems that a combined program is pretty much a done deal and Abound will be the exchange program mechanism that supports it. Of course the devil is in the details and there is still a lot we don't know there, but speculating is fun and I don't really see any of it being presented as a "done deal".


I am not trying to reign in the fun, just making a joke.  
You have been involved since day one.
As an occasional visitor to the thread looking for "real" program information, it is hard to sort out facts about the program from fiction and speculation about the program.
I was replying to a post from someone that seems to feel the same way.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 17, 2022)

emeryjre said:


> I love all the speculation presented as a "done deal" as well.
> We should have a contest.
> Best speculation that actually shows up in the program wins a gold star and a pass to hold their pool chair all day with just a towel.


I win!

But I don't care about the chair and towel - just give me the freakin' teal ottoman!


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## jmhpsu93 (Jun 17, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> It's more than that. They meant $600 million in *EXCESS* inventory, meaning $600 million more than their target. If you look at the separate thread I started on the non-ABOUND topics, you will see they actually have $1.18 billion of inventory on their books, which represents about 5 years of inventory, whereas their target is 1.5-2 years. They hope to work down their inventory levels to $760-$790 million by about 2025.
> 
> Those numbers are also for all of MVW and include Welk/Hyatt inventory. So, I suspect they will need to look at inventory levels within each of their two systems and increase repurchases or new development whenever each of the two systems reaches their target levels.


If they have all of this excess inventory then why do they continue to exercise ROFR?  In theory they're paying the maintenance fees on that inventory so there's a holding cost to it (though I'm sure they get some back on rentals, etc.).


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

jmhpsu93 said:


> If they have all of this excess inventory then why do they continue to exercise ROFR?  In theory they're paying the maintenance fees on that inventory so there's a holding cost to it (though I'm sure they get some back on rentals, etc.).


I suspect much of their unsold inventory isn't in Marriott. They didn't break down the inventory by bucket, but it seems a lot came with the Welk acquisition. They are probably also sitting on a bunch of foreign MVC inventory (Bali, Costa Rica, Surfers Paradise). They can't sell any of that as DC Trust Points. It would be good to know how many unsold DC Trust Points they are sitting on.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 17, 2022)

jmhpsu93 said:


> If they have all of this excess inventory then why do they continue to exercise ROFR?  In theory they're paying the maintenance fees on that inventory so there's a holding cost to it (though I'm sure they get some back on rentals, etc.).


I think @dioxide45 nailed it, but in addition to what he said, ROFR is also the cheapest way to acquire inventory and lowers their average cost of vacation interests sold, which in turn expands their development margin, which is one of the metrics Wall Street looks at in valuing the company. So they have said in the past they have a ROFR target to generate the inventory mix that fits their desired ratio

But the CEO directly said in his comments that the excess inventory came from the acquisitions and several new development projects that were committed to prior to the pandemic. So based on that, it’s logical to assume there is not much excess inventory in the MVC Trust, so the ROFRs are funding that part of the sales engine while they work down the acquired and international inventory.

They also said they view ROFR as a way to buy out an owner who may not be as interested and engaged and then sell the resulting points to a new more engaged owner who would be more likely to buy more in the future. So it’s also an investment in future sales.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 17, 2022)

To add to what I posted just above, here is a slide from yesterday's presentation on how they view repurchases (ROFR):


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## JIMinNC (Jun 17, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thank you for sharing. I wonder if "owners" include resale owners. Or are we considered a non-recognized lower class?



Not sure how I missed it yesterday, but I just saw there may be a clue to the answer to your question in the ABOUND news release in this quote from MVW President John Geller:

_*"We are incredibly excited to debut Abound by Marriott Vacations, which is our gateway for enrolled vacation Owners to embark on exceptional travel adventures around the globe, helping them make a lifetime of meaningful vacation moments with those they care about most," said President of Marriott Vacations Worldwide, John E. Geller, Jr.*_

Note my highlighted text in the quote. He specifically said "enrolled vacation Owners". So, I would interpret that to mean that existing enrolled MVC owners are automatically enrolled in ABOUND, since they said there would be no fees for the new program other than the annual club fee all enrolled owners pay. The key outstanding question is what will be the enrollment process on the Westin/Sheraton side? I think we can probably assume all direct sales will be automatically qualified for enrollment, but how will Westin/Sheraton resale owners become eligible for enrollment? I suspect it may be via the same path that an unenrolled MVC weeks owner can become enrolled today - by buying a defined number of ABOUND ClubPoints direct from Marriott. Historically in the MVC world, that option was only offered during certain promotional periods that tended to happen once or twice per year.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

The qualifications for enrollment on the Vistana side is the big unanswered question. They did state there would be no add on cost or fee to enroll. I am sure much to the chagrin of the salesforce.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 17, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Not sure how I missed it yesterday, but I just saw there may be a clue to the answer to your question in the ABOUND news release in this quote from MVW President John Geller:
> 
> _*"We are incredibly excited to debut Abound by Marriott Vacations, which is our gateway for enrolled vacation Owners to embark on exceptional travel adventures around the globe, helping them make a lifetime of meaningful vacation moments with those they care about most," said President of Marriott Vacations Worldwide, John E. Geller, Jr.*_
> 
> Note my highlighted text in the quote. He specifically said "enrolled vacation Owners". So, I would interpret that to mean that existing enrolled MVC owners are automatically enrolled in ABOUND, since they said there would be no fees for the new program other than the annual club fee all enrolled owners pay. The key outstanding question is what will be the enrollment process on the Westin/Sheraton side? I think we can probably assume all direct sales will be automatically qualified for enrollment, but how will Westin/Sheraton resale owners become eligible for enrollment? I suspect it may be via the same path that an unenrolled MVC weeks owner can become enrolled today - by buying a defined number of ABOUND ClubPoints direct from Marriott. Historically in the MVC world, that option was only offered during certain promotional periods that tended to happen once or twice per year.


I think what you say will be true for all resale purchases after Abound has been officially rolled out, but it wouldn't come as a surprise at all if at the official introduction all existing Vistana  ownerships - direct-purchases and external-resale purchases - are given the option to enroll all previous purchases (similar to the Destination Club rollout back in 2010 with every Week that was sold prior to 6/20/10 being eligible for enrollment.)


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## Jim Mc (Jun 17, 2022)

BigDawgTUG said:


> I like the touted benefit of "Reduces call volume," which assumes that one day they might have a fully functioning website!


 Been Marriott Vacation member since 1999 and the website, for a company like Marriott, has always infuriated me.  Hopefully, they will hire some good Web developers.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> I think what you say will be true for all resale purchases after Abound has been officially rolled out, but it wouldn't come as a surprise at all if at the official introduction all existing Vistana  ownerships - direct-purchases and external-resale purchases - are given the option to enroll all previous purchases (similar to the Destination Club rollout back in 2010 with every Week that was sold prior to 6/20/10 being eligible for enrollment.)


That is the biggest unanswered question about enrollment qualifications. Will they or won't they "grandfather" like they did in 2010. The only different today is that they are mentioning free enrollment, no incremental cost outside of the Club Fee. Will they want to give resale owners free enrollment? We shall see.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 17, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> That is the biggest unanswered question about enrollment qualifications. Will they or won't they "grandfather" like they did in 2010. The only different today is that they are mentioning free enrollment, no incremental cost outside of the Club Fee. Will they want to give resale owners free enrollment? We shall see.


We theorized then that for them, with such limited inventory seeding the DC Trust that could be manipulated through the Exchange Company, success would be furthered by existing Weeks being allowed to be deposited into the Exchange Company. It's much more robust now than it was then but obviously not with Vistana inventory, so isn't the question whether there is as much of an initial need to push Vistana inventory into it?


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## Superchief (Jun 17, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Definition of Abound from Google:  To be plentiful; to be very prevalent; to overflow. To be copiously supplied; to be wealthy in; to teem with; -- followed by in or with.
> 
> I don't think they are meaning for us to be plentiful and overflowing, but I think Marriott is thinking they will be those things.  Kind of funny.  I took it to mean another kind of bound, like when people say, "I am Disney bound," or "I am Maui bound."
> 
> I am abound for Vancouver in just a few weeks.


Overflowing and overwhelming for their IT system.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 17, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> I think what you say will be true for all resale purchases after Abound has been officially rolled out, but it wouldn't come as a surprise at all if at the official introduction all existing Vistana  ownerships - direct-purchases and external-resale purchases - are given the option to enroll all previous purchases (similar to the Destination Club rollout back in 2010 with every Week that was sold prior to 6/20/10 being eligible for enrollment.)





dioxide45 said:


> That is the biggest unanswered question about enrollment qualifications. Will they or won't they "grandfather" like they did in 2010. The only different today is that they are mentioning free enrollment, no incremental cost outside of the Club Fee. Will they want to give resale owners free enrollment? We shall see.





SueDonJ said:


> We theorized then that for them, with such limited inventory seeding the DC Trust that could be manipulated through the Exchange Company, success would be furthered by existing Weeks being allowed to be deposited into the Exchange Company. It's much more robust now than it was then but obviously not with Vistana inventory, so isn't the question whether there is as much of an initial need to push Vistana inventory into it?



It would certainly make sense to have some sort of initial enrollment promotion - at least for the legacy Vistana side - to try to get that inventory into the Abound Exchange. I would expect enrolled DC owners to be automatic since Abound just appears to be a rebranded DC. Since there is no enrollment fee like there was in 2010, I do find it hard to believe they would allow resale owners - either still-unenrolled MVC weeks owners or resale Westin/Sheraton owners - to enroll for free on the same basis as direct owners. They've never shown the inclination to put resale owners on the same basis as direct purchasers. Even in 2010, pre-6/2010 resale owners had to pay a higher enrollment fee than direct purchasers.

Perhaps the way they do it is this (speculation warning!):

Existing enrolled MVC owners are seamlessly transitioned to Abound with no action required.
Existing direct purchase Westin/Sheraton owners are allowed to enroll in Abound either online or through a direct solicitation for free.
Unenrolled resale owners on both sides can enroll in Abound with a ClubPoints purchase (would they offer a one-time fee option?).


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 17, 2022)

Jim Mc said:


> Been Marriott Vacation member since 1999 and the website, for a company like Marriott, has always infuriated me.  Hopefully, they will hire some good Web developers.



There is hope. The HGVC site prior to 2018 sucked. It sucked so badly they kept 2 concurrent reservation systems running because one system could not do the entire job.  New CEO came on board made IT a priority and now there is one system that runs reasonably well. 

Perhaps the board purposely selected the new MVC CEO with a background in IT because he will make it a priority. Perhaps the old CEO deprioritized investment in IT and never budgeted sufficient funds.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 17, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> It would certainly make sense to have some sort of initial enrollment promotion - at least for the legacy Vistana side - to try to get that inventory into the Abound Exchange. I would expect enrolled DC owners to be automatic since Abound just appears to be a rebranded DC. Since there is no enrollment fee like there was in 2010, I do find it hard to believe they would allow resale owners - either still-unenrolled MVC weeks owners or resale Westin/Sheraton owners - to enroll for free on the same basis as direct owners. They've never shown the inclination to put resale owners on the same basis as direct purchasers. Even in 2010, pre-6/2010 resale owners had to pay a higher enrollment fee than direct purchasers.
> 
> Perhaps the way the do it is this (speculation warning!):
> 
> ...


The only comment I have is that I'm long-past your first bullet and thinking it's a foregone conclusion that for those of us Marriott Weeks owners who are already enrolled, the only changes we're facing are a Destinations-to-Abound name change and the reality that Vistana properties will be available to us when those eligible owners start to play in the same sandbox.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 17, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> To add to what I posted just above, here is a slide from yesterday's presentation on how they view repurchases (ROFR):
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 58249



This chart is very interesting combined with their statement that after 12 years, 40% of the MVC base is still unenrolled.  They shared this figure several years ago which means that with DP point attrition, and deeded points owners selling-out and turning their deeds into DP-less resales, DP has not gained ground with this part of the customer base.

This chart says a lot about this base which at this point will never pay more than a minimal fee to enroll. I see the words, "Refresh less engaged owners" as interesting. Perhaps they see free or minimal enrollment as a way to re-engage them and need to rethink their approach. It must also cost a lot to maintain two systems (now many with Vistana, Welk, Hyatt) vs. consolidating into one or two.


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## Aviator621 (Jun 17, 2022)

dj_drf said:


> So you are okay with synergistic, LOL.


Of course! Who DOESN'T want to be synergistic?


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## dsmrp (Jun 17, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> It would certainly make sense to have some sort of initial enrollment promotion - at least for the legacy Vistana side - to try to get that inventory into the Abound Exchange. I would expect enrolled DC owners to be automatic since Abound just appears to be a rebranded DC. Since there is no enrollment fee like there was in 2010, I do find it hard to believe they would allow resale owners - either still-unenrolled MVC weeks owners or resale Westin/Sheraton owners - to enroll for free on the same basis as direct owners. They've never shown the inclination to put resale owners on the same basis as direct purchasers. Even in 2010, pre-6/2010 resale owners had to pay a higher enrollment fee than direct purchasers.
> 
> Perhaps the way they do it is this (speculation warning!):
> 
> ...


I seem to recall a January 2022 date reported from sales update mtgs on some postings.  Perhaps that will be the cutoff for Vistana resale weeks purchases for enrolling in Abound club, analogous to June 2010 for DC. Of course any offered enrollment would require a fee.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 17, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> This chart is very interesting combined with their statement that after 12 years, 40% of the MVC base is still unenrolled.  They shared this figure several years ago which means that with DP point attrition, and deeded points owners aging out and turning their deeds into resales, DP has not gained ground with this part of the customer base.
> 
> This chart says a lot about this base which at this point will never pay more than a minimal fee to enroll. I see the words, "Refresh less engaged owners" as interesting. Perhaps they see free or minimal enrollment as a way to re-engage them and need to rethink their approach. It must also cost a lot to maintain two systems (now many with Vistana, Welk, Hyatt) vs. consolidating into one or two.



I also thought the 40% number was surprisingly high this deep into the DC, but since I didn't capture what his exact words were, I am not 100% sure whether he meant 40% were still unenrolled, or whether he meant that 40% of their vacation reservations were still happening in the legacy weeks system. For example, all three of our weeks are now enrolled, but we've never elected our Waiohai or Maui Ocean Club weeks for Points. We now always elect our Barony week for points. So, how are we counted?

I would love to go back and re-listen to that comment in the Vimeo archive of the presentations, but it would take some time to find it.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 17, 2022)

.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I also thought the 40% number was surprisingly high this deep into the DC, but since I didn't capture what his exact words were, I am not 100% sure whether he meant 40% were still unenrolled, or whether he meant that 40% of their vacation reservations were still happening in the legacy weeks system. For example, all three of our weeks are now enrolled, but we've never elected our Waiohai or Maui Ocean Club weeks for Points. We now always elect our Barony week for points. So, how are we counted?
> 
> I would love to go back and re-listen to that comment in the Vimeo archive of the presentations, but it would take some time to find it.


From what I can recall when he was speaking, I kind of understood it as 40% have never enrolled. That would make more sense than 40% don't use points. I am sure the percentage that don't use points fluctuates year to year. He mentioned the additional club fee and an enrollment fee as a potential sticking point to enrollment, so that I expect is one reason I suspect it is 40% unenrolled.

On another note: does anyone know if the free enrollment with webinar offer provided free enrollment to those pre June 20, 2010 resale weeks? Or is it just free for those that bought direct prior to June 20, 2010?

Aside from all of that, when they roll out Abound fully and offer full enrollment for Vistana owners will they open up enrollment to all pre June 2010 weeks for free on the MVC side without the need to watch the webinar?


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## JIMinNC (Jun 17, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> From what I can recall when he was speaking, I kind of understood it as 40% have never enrolled. That would make more sense than 40% don't use points. I am sure the percentage that don't use points fluctuates year to year.



That was my initial perception also, but after I thought about it, the 40% number seemed surprisingly high for 12 years on, so I began questioning whether there was some nuance in his statement that I missed.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> That was my initial perception also, but after I thought about it, the 40% number seemed surprisingly high for 12 years on, so I began questioning whether there was some nuance in his statement that I missed.


For the longest time we heard that enrollment was around 40%. I still have a number of 38.4% that was provided to me back in 2012 for the number of weeks enrolled. Certainly initial enrollment out of the 2010 gate would be high but enrollment rates wane over time. There are always owners that see no value in enrollment and the higher fee. They simply use their home resort more than not. Over the course of time there are also resales that are locked out of enrollment (without buying points). So I can see where the 60% of owners enrolled to this point might be fairly accurate.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 17, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> For the longest time we heard that enrollment was around 40%. I still have a number of 38.4% that was provided to me back in 2012 for the number of weeks enrolled. Certainly initial enrollment out of the 2010 gate would be high but enrollment rates wane over time. There are always owners that see no value in enrollment and the higher fee. They simply use their home resort more than not. Over the course of time there are also resales that are locked out of enrollment (without buying points). So I can see where the 60% of owners enrolled to this point might be fairly accurate.



That's a valuable perspective, so maybe the 40% unenrolled does make sense. Weisz did say when they launched points in 2010 they expected points adoption to be much higher than it is, so maybe that's why they are doing free enrollment this time. Given that, maybe they will try to use the Abound launch to also boost enrollment on the MVC side in some way in addition to getting Westin/Sheraton owners into the program.


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## alexinorlando (Jun 17, 2022)

Think about this, if they allowed all resale owners to enroll current and future. Imagine the positive effect it would have company wide.
*More inventory for everyone to play with in full control of Marriott, but essentially fulfilling  more in-demand reservations between the owner base
*More engaged ownership base
*would drive the prices of re-sales on all Marriott and vistana inventory, and making the price difference between retail and retail slimmer. Therefore making a retail purchase not look as bad (kind of like Disney)
* More “program fees” collected from all enrolled owners


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## Steve Fatula (Jun 17, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> For the longest time we heard that enrollment was around 40%. I still have a number of 38.4% that was provided to me back in 2012 for the number of weeks enrolled. Certainly initial enrollment out of the 2010 gate would be high but enrollment rates wane over time. There are always owners that see no value in enrollment and the higher fee. They simply use their home resort more than not. Over the course of time there are also resales that are locked out of enrollment (without buying points). So I can see where the 60% of owners enrolled to this point might be fairly accurate.



There's many of those here on TUG as you describe. When we go to DSV every February, basically everyone we talk to is not enrolled. They use 6, 8, 10, 12 weeks to stay the winter out there, they have no need to enroll. Doubt they ever will. There is that segment of owners. I would personally expect 40% unenrolled to be reasonable.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 17, 2022)

I heard the deeded enrollment figure at 60% several years ago during an investor call. At the time I was surprised it was so low given the DP program had been running for almost a decade. Are you saying it is only 40% enrolled now? I thought they said that 40% was unenrolled which is consistent with the 60% figure.

The other figure that stood out to me was that only 20% of presentations result in a sale. Maybe not surprising but given they expect to sell to their base perhaps they are rethinking their approach as deeded owners age and sell out to non-DP resale owners who are very savvy buyers but have never been engaged at the corporate level.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 17, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I heard the deeded enrollment figure at 60% several years ago during an investor call. At the time I was surprised it was so low given the DP program had been running for almost a decade. Are you saying it is only 40% enrolled now? I thought they said that 40% was unenrolled which is consistent with the 60% figure.
> 
> The other figure that stood out to me was that only 20% of presentations result in a sale. Maybe not surprising but given they expect to sell to their base they are rethinking their approach as deeded resales rise as owners age and sell out creating non-DP resale owners who are very savvy buyers and not engaged.



It's 40% NOT playing in points. So 60% enrolled/40% unenrolled


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## SandyPGravel (Jun 17, 2022)

gln60 said:


> You can put a tuxedo on a hobo…but it’s still a hobo


This made me think of Jack from 'Titanic'...then I associated the IT fiasco with the Titanic...Not a good analogy


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I heard the deeded enrollment figure at 60% several years ago during an investor call. At the time I was surprised it was so low given the DP program had been running for almost a decade. Are you saying it is only 40% enrolled now? I thought they said that 40% was unenrolled which is consistent with the 60% figure.
> 
> The other figure that stood out to me was that only 20% of presentations result in a sale. Maybe not surprising but given they expect to sell to their base perhaps they are rethinking their approach as deeded owners age and sell out to non-DP resale owners who are very savvy buyers but have never been engaged at the corporate level.


They mentioned 20% closing rate at one point and then later a mid teens. When directly asked by someone representing investors what their closing rate was, they sheepishly declined to give an exact number and said mid-teens. I suspect it is a proprietary metric and they don't want the competition to know that exact number. Mid-teens to twenty percent is actually probably a pretty good closing rate in the industry. In some places it is a one in ten (10%). Thus why they also have a 40-50% marketing cost in all the points they sell.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

alexinorlando said:


> Think about this, if they allowed all resale owners to enroll current and future. Imagine the positive effect it would have company wide.
> *More inventory for everyone to play with in full control of Marriott, but essentially fulfilling  more in-demand reservations between the owner base
> *More engaged ownership base
> *would drive the prices of re-sales on all Marriott and vistana inventory, and making the price difference between retail and retail slimmer. Therefore making a retail purchase not look as bad (kind of like Disney)
> * More “program fees” collected from all enrolled owners


Marriott has an incentive to keep resale prices down though. So they can require inventory pretty cheap via ROFR. Resale prices will rarely make it over 50% of retail. Even on the DVC side they may be 60% at best. They seem to have gone the way of the model of restricting resale usage and using that to buy back cheap. If they can get even 5-10% of those resale owners to later make a direct purchase to enroll the resale week, they are probably ahead.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 17, 2022)

That's interesting about mid-teens. Perhaps it is time to rethink their marketing approach since the 40% is clearly not budging and they have done little but offer cold shoulder and expensive price tags to their knowledgable resale buyers who may be inclined to buy add-ons if the price and value was right.

HGVC is starting to attract younger more social buyers by offering selling events with owners and potential owners for private chef dinners and excellent seating and tents at owner areas at concerts instead of impersonal gift cards. This was something they leveraged from Diamond.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 17, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> HGVC is starting to attract younger more social buyers by offering selling events with owners and potential owners for private chef dinners and excellent seating and tents at owner areas at concerts instead of impersonal gift cards. This was something they leveraged from Diamond.


Yeah, that program is Michael Flaskey's brainchild and is actually part of a separate company he owns, MF Entertainment. Now that he is no longer with DRI, they markets these events to other timeshare brands. Marriott started selling these VIP events to owners who use DC points to book them. Apparently they are not too bad of a deal value wise but do require a timeshare presentation during the trip. THey apparently have an excellent closing rate. Probably much higher than mid teens. 

Encore packages apparently also have good conversion to sales rates and thus why they always offer one after a timeshare sales presentation. There is a better chance you will buy when you come back and they make money selling the package.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 17, 2022)

I just hope Marriott does not see future dollar signs when they get my ROFR paperwork for my recent resale purchases.


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## ljmiii (Jun 18, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> That's interesting about mid-teens. Perhaps it is time to rethink their marketing approach since the 40% is clearly not budging....


I'm more inclined to believe that the consistency of the 40% unenrolled number hides a constant churn. That the sales of enrolled weeks on the resale market are balanced by those taking MVC up on their hybrid deals and yearly enrollment offers.

I could also believe that this is intentional on MVC's part - that 40% is the outcome of a strategy that keeps resale week prices low (enhancing the value of ROFR) while making a good profit on the hybrid/enrollment deals that keep an acceptable amount of DP inventory for the legacy resorts.


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## amycurl (Jun 18, 2022)

Salesforce. Ugh. Ugh, ugh, ugh.
Our CRM and online registration system is Salesforce-based. All I can say--it's like an never-ending black hole where staff time goes to die.


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## l0410z (Jun 18, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> It's 40% NOT playing in points. So 60% enrolled/40% unenrolled



I administer an II FB group with 12k members and part of a number of other Marriott FB groups.  In the 60 percent of enrolled owners, I question  how many actually exchange for points which releases inventory for others point members to use.  Many owners enroll because they have lockoff units and there is a cost advantage to enrolling your week and paying the club dues if you have a lockoff.  Each lockoff that you use as such avoids two II trading fees with I believe is 195 each.  The club dues also comes with a corporate II account which avoids the II membership fee.  The more weeks enrolled, the bigger the savings,


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## The Colorado Kid (Jun 18, 2022)

ABSCOND (With more of my money) would be a more accurate name for the new program


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## cacain119 (Jun 18, 2022)

Do we know yet if resale owners will have access to Abound?


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## divenski (Jun 18, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> It would certainly make sense to have some sort of initial enrollment promotion - at least for the legacy Vistana side - to try to get that inventory into the Abound Exchange. I would expect enrolled DC owners to be automatic since Abound just appears to be a rebranded DC. Since there is no enrollment fee like there was in 2010, I do find it hard to believe they would allow resale owners - either still-unenrolled MVC weeks owners or resale Westin/Sheraton owners - to enroll for free on the same basis as direct owners. They've never shown the inclination to put resale owners on the same basis as direct purchasers. Even in 2010, pre-6/2010 resale owners had to pay a higher enrollment fee than direct purchasers.



Yes, pre-6/2010 resale owners had to pay a higher fee, but overall, it was a modest premium, eg about $1,500 vs $600. That's a lot less than the current retro and enroll schemes which are $10-30K.

The big question is, if there is a new one-time fee, will it be closer to the 2010 fee or the current retro/enroll fees?

It's interesting that 40% of MVC owners have not enrolled, but that doesn't seem to be a big concern to MVC. If it was, one might expect them to make it easier, ie less expensive, to enroll resale weeks.

And thanks for the investor slides. It's really interesting to see the corporate side of the TS business.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

divenski said:


> Yes, pre-6/2010 resale owners had to pay a higher fee, but overall, it was a modest premium, eg about $1,500 vs $600. That's a lot less than the current retro and enroll schemes which are $10-30K.
> 
> The big question is, if there is a new one-time fee, will it be closer to the 2010 fee or the current retro/enroll fees?
> 
> ...


From everything said during the MVW Investor Day webcast, there will be no new fee to join Abound. From what we understand, for Marriott owners there is no change. The Abound name replaces the Destinations Exchange Program name. So Marriott trust point and enrolled weeks owners will autoatmnaily fall under the new Abound. For Vistana owners, they can choose to enroll for free. They said on the investor call "completely additive and no incremental costs to owner". The only change would be the fee structure where Vistana owners who enroll will pay the Abound Club fee instead of their existing VSN fee. This could cost them more, cost them the same or even save them some money.

As for enrollment. I got the impression from the webcast that they were actually disappointed by the enrollment numbers. They expected more owners to enroll. They didn't see the enrollment fee to be as big a barrier to entry that it ended up being. Thus why I think why they are going the no enrollment fee route this time with Abound. They want to try to get as many people into the system as possible to make inventory as fluid as possible.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 18, 2022)

cacain119 said:


> Do we know yet if resale owners will have access to Abound?



The expectation on the MVC side is if your resale week(s) are currently enrolled in the Destination Club, they will automatically transfer to Abound. If you have resale weeks that are not already enrolled or resale Westin/Sheraton weeks, we do not know what your options will be or what you will have to do to enroll and unenrolled resale week. That level of detail was not addressed at the Investor Day.


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## divenski (Jun 18, 2022)

I was more focused on the possible options and costs for resale owners.


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## Dean (Jun 18, 2022)

divenski said:


> Yes, pre-6/2010 resale owners had to pay a higher fee, but overall, it was a modest premium, eg about $1,500 vs $600. That's a lot less than the current retro and enroll schemes which are $10-30K.
> 
> The big question is, if there is a new one-time fee, will it be closer to the 2010 fee or the current retro/enroll fees?
> 
> ...


It looks like they've changed the information online (MVC) related to enrollment back to the original pricing at the time of roll out in 2010 with the same restrictions.  My guess is they'll offer free enrollment for those who qualify as a sales tour incentive.  It'll likely be similar on the non MVC side though I could see a later cutoff date.  They really don't care much about whether the remaining ones enroll for MVC, what they do care about is making money on the ones where they can.  Whether they will care more on the Vistana/Westin side to get inventory is an unknown, my guess is they won't since the volume included for points for each resort is not published anyway.


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## Fasttr (Jun 18, 2022)

Re:  the 40% number….

Page B2 of the link below says as of 12/31/20,  273,402 owners were enrolled in the exchange program.   Do we know how many owners there are in total?

Also, is the 40% enrolled owners, or enrolled weeks.   Seems an owner with multiple weeks was more likely to enroll at the beginning vs a single weeks owner.   So curious if the # of weeks enrolled is higher than 40%.  



			http://img.vacationclubsurvey.com/images/MVCIAP/enrollment/Documents/MVCDExchangeProgram_DisclosureGuide_English.pdf


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

Dean said:


> It looks like they've changed the information online (MVC) related to enrollment back to the original pricing at the time of roll out in 2010 with the same restrictions.  My guess is they'll offer free enrollment for those who qualify as a sales tour incentive.  It'll likely be similar on the non MVC side though I could see a later cutoff date.  They really don't care much about whether the remaining ones enroll for MVC, what they do care about is making money on the ones where they can.  Whether they will care more on the Vistana/Westin side to get inventory is an unknown, my guess is they won't since the volume included for points for each resort is not published anyway.


That pricing has been reverted back to 2010 numbers for many months. I don't know exactly when they changed it, but it has been a while. It is still possible to enroll eligible weeks for free with the webinar. I know of one person who has done this recently. They may try to push the free enrollment with an owners update a little more. They did offer this a while back, but I haven't seen it mentioned lately.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

Fasttr said:


> Re:  the 40% number….
> 
> Page B2 of the link below says as of 12/31/20,  273,402 owners were enrolled in the exchange program.   Do we know how many owners there are in total?
> 
> ...


The problem is that MVW now only discloses total owners, that is all owners in all systems (Hyatt, MVC, Vistana). That number is 700,000. I don't think we will ever see a breakdown by system again.


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## Fasttr (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> The problem is that MVW now only discloses total owners, that is all owners in all systems (Hyatt, MVC, Vistana). That number is 700,000. I don't think we will ever see a breakdown by system again.


273,402/700,000 = 39% of total.  
Seems reasonable 60% of MVC is possible.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

Fasttr said:


> 273,402/700,000 = 39%


Yeah, but many of those 700,000 can't even enroll in DC/Abound. The 40% number that was touted was the number of unenrolled. Using the 60% enrolled being 273,402, we can estimate a total number of MVC owners to be about 455,000.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 18, 2022)

Fasttr said:


> 273,402/700,000 = 39%


Yeah but the *enrolled* number should be 60%.

So, 273,402/60% = 455,670. The last time I saw the total owner number in the 10-K reports for just MVC, it was somewhere near that. I'll see if I can find that.


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## Fasttr (Jun 18, 2022)

I posted before I finished my thought.  See my full post above.  We are on the same page.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 18, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Yeah but the *enrolled* number should be 60%.
> 
> So, 273,402/60% = 455,670. The last time I saw the total owner number in the 10-K reports for just MVC, it was somewhere near that. I'll see if I can find that.



As of December 31, 2017, they reported "approximately 400,000 owners" in MVC. For December 31, 2018, they included the ILG acquisition and it grew to 600,000.

So the 273K could easily be 60% of the current number with some rounding factored in.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 18, 2022)

You people know exactly how to torture me and appear to revel in math for just that purpose. I see what you're doing!


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 18, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> You people know exactly how to torture me and appear to revel in math for just that purpose. I see what you're doing!


I know.  I am so confused.


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## itkwon (Jun 18, 2022)

alexinorlando said:


> Think about this, if they allowed all resale owners to enroll current and future. Imagine the positive effect it would have company wide.
> *More inventory for everyone to play with in full control of Marriott, but essentially fulfilling  more in-demand reservations between the owner base
> *More engaged ownership base
> *would drive the prices of re-sales on all Marriott and vistana inventory, and making the price difference between retail and retail slimmer. Therefore making a retail purchase not look as bad (kind of like Disney)
> * More “program fees” collected from all enrolled owners


I am also interested in the detail related to the benefits for resale owners.
I am just trying to watch resale inventories of MVC Points resales, Vistana Flex resales, and Marriott Grand Chateau deed weeks. Thus, I am trying to hold any decision before everything is clear about 'Abound' program. I am just not trying to be 'Abounced' to make an impulse purchase. I have to wait to get to know those.

I may ask salespersons about the detail although I cannot fully trust them.
----
MVC - Marriott Vacation Club


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## SueDonJ (Jun 18, 2022)

itkwon said:


> I am also interested in the detail related to the benefits for resale owners.
> I am just trying to watch resale inventories of MVC Points resales, Vistana Flex resales, and Marriott Grand Chateau deed weeks. Thus, I am trying to hold any decision before everything is clear about 'Abound' program. I am just not trying to be 'Abounced' to make an impulse purchase. I have to wait to get to know those.
> 
> I may ask salespersons about the detail although I cannot fully trust them.
> ...


Not sure if history will repeat, of course, but if history is any indication - at the DC implementation on 6/20/10 all previously-sold Marriott Weeks (direct-purchase and external-resales) were eligible for DC enrollment with the only differences between them being 1) the initial one-time Enrollment Fee and 2) the frequency with which an Enrolled Week can be exchanged for Bonvoy Points (with resales eligible for that exchange half as often as like direct-purchases.) Immediately the eligibility rules changed though, with any external resales purchased after 6/20/10 being ineligible for enrollment. That continued for a number of years until Marriott introduced a couple different sales incentives that allow for the enrollment of officially-ineligible Weeks with a direct purchase of DC Points or non-US-based Weeks.

It'll definitely be interesting to see how things shake out with the Abound implementation for Vistana owners, but my thinking is that Marriott has enough data from Marriott owners to already know what will be the determining factor at which the initial eligibility dates/rules for Vistana owners might change in the future.

Because of the history, if as a Vistana owner I had a good understanding of how the Abound-formerly-Destination-Club system would be advantageous for my particular ownership, I'd seriously consider adding resales with the hope that they'd get processed prior to the implementation. It'd be a roll of the dice, I know, and I'm definitely not saying that everyone should do exactly as I would. It's just something to think about.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> Because of the history, if as a Vistana owner I had a good understanding of how the Abound-formerly-Destination-Club system would be advantageous for my particular ownership, I'd seriously consider adding resales with the hope that they'd get processed prior to the implementation. It'd be a roll of the dice, I know, and I'm definitely not saying that everyone should do exactly as I would. It's just something to think about.


The only problem is that it is taking Vistana/MVC almost two months to complete a transfer of ownership. Chances are that they would have this thing rolled out before you got through closing ang transfer. It would be a big roll of the dice.


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## emeryjre (Jun 18, 2022)

Friend sold one of his Oceana Palms units, Went into Escrow on February 15.  All paperwork in order at that time.  No delays on part of seller or buyer.  Transfer done 10 days ago.  New owner is still not able to set up his TS account at Marriott as of this morning.   Maybe different experiences among different transfers, but this one was longer than 2 months.  New owner is still trying to find out if they will still have use for July 4th weekend.  Seller had a confirmed reservation made before putting the unit up for sale.


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## GetawaysRus (Jun 18, 2022)

Ok, I have a question for you MVC mavens.

I own one (every year, lockoff) week that is enrolled.

Over the past few years, I picked up 2 additional Marriott resale weeks. These are not enrolled, and both are lockoffs.

I've got plenty of weeks now to meet our travel needs. It would be nice to be able to enroll those 2 resale weeks that were purchased recently, but I don't want to spend big $$ to buy more points or weeks from Marriott to enable enrolling these 2 recent purchases.

So: is there any way to enroll my 2 recent purchases on the cheap? Will the new Abound program offer any opportunity?


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## JIMinNC (Jun 18, 2022)

GetawaysRus said:


> Ok, I have a question for you MVC mavens.
> 
> I own one (every year, lockoff) week that is enrolled.
> 
> ...



Short answer is there has not been way to enroll post-6/2010 MVC resales weeks on the cheap - unless you consider $25k-$30k cheap. No one knows if the Abound program will change that. Anything other than that is basically speculation at this point.


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## amycurl (Jun 18, 2022)

Per the closing rate: at my HGVC presentation two weeks ago, I mentioned a 25% closing rate (1 in 4 presentations.) My salesperson corrected me and said 3 out of 5. Suuuuuuuure.  I find these Marriott numbers far more believable.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 18, 2022)

amycurl said:


> Per the closing rate: at my HGVC presentation two weeks ago, I mentioned a 25% closing rate (1 in 4 presentations.) My salesperson corrected me and said 3 out of 5. Suuuuuuuure.  I find these Marriott numbers far more believable.



I’d have laughed out loud.

typically the average for sales numbers are
100 cold calls to get 10 appointments
of those 10, only 3 will be legitimate prospects.
A good salesman can close 1 of those 3.

when Marriott announced a 20 percent close rate I felt that was reasonably honest considering they bribe their owners with incentives to attend.


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## gdstuart (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Sadly, they probably spend tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars for some marketing group to come up with these.


Yeah, probably the same guys who name new prescription drugs.  I want that gig.


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## CPNY (Jun 18, 2022)

gdstuart said:


> Yeah, probably the same guys who name new prescription drugs.  I want that gig.


They aren’t supposed to sound like any other drugs on the market.


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## MICROZE (Jun 18, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Short answer is there has not been way to enroll post-6/2010 MVC resales weeks on the cheap - unless you consider $25k-$30k cheap. No one knows if the Abound program will change that. Anything other than that is basically speculation at this point.


The *relatively* cheap way to enroll resales and accrue DC-Points once the combined program is rolled out is via Vistana-Resales.
Here's what we did over the last 2 years.
Purchased 6 x 2BR-EY-WKV-PLAT+ [148.1K-SO] for an average of ~$12K each resale.
Enrolled all 6 x WKV by purchasing a Vistana-Retro package [Flex-Points @ $0.40c/Point].

The cost to enroll 6 x Contracts [$35K]

Enroll 1 x Contract: Spend $10K
Enroll Additional-Contract: $5K-Each
We spent $5K more as we enrolled 3-Contracts x Twice.
This accrues 888600-SO which equates to a Vistana Elite-Status of 5-Star.
Based on postings thus far, it appears that each 2BR-EY-WKV would accrue ~4K-DCP which would translate to ~24K-DCP annually.
This works out to a MF of ~$0.43c/Point [MF-$1726 / 4000-DCP].

*Summary*: Despite all of the above benefits I don't think we would ever exchange our WKV-Units for DCP-Points.
Over the last few years we have rented these units for ~$5K and don't see us getting that value via the DCP-System.

Others are correct in their caution about "History".
You may need to close out the enrollment prior to the official rolllout-date.


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## rickxylon (Jun 18, 2022)

Just saw this in an Aruba Surf Club Facebook group


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

rickxylon said:


> Just saw this in an Aruba Surf Club Facebook group
> 
> View attachment 58341


The last bullet point will answer a lot of concerns for Vistana owners.


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## emeryjre (Jun 18, 2022)

Bullet point number 2 is real interesting.  "If VSN members elect to receive club points,,,,,,"  I guess the answer to what defines a VSN member is going to be of interest to anyone that has a unit in the VSN system.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

emeryjre said:


> Bullet point number 2 is real interesting.  "If VSN members elect to receive club points,,,,,,"  I guess the answer to what defines a VSN member is going to be of interest to anyone that has a unit in the VSN system.


Yes, it does seem that VSN membership will be required for entry, but will there be a further limiting factor for resale/direct? What about future mandatory resales, will they be eligible to enroll in Abound?


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## Cody Penn-Dent (Jun 18, 2022)

Noob here posting for the first time here, and a Vistana owner (4 star between Nanea and Mexico)

I am at the Nanea right now and had our 'owner update' yesterday.

Abound is new to sales and they are still in training BUT a couple of tidbits I haven't seen here while lurking (may be mentioned elsewhere, but... like I said... I haven't seen them)

1) Abound status levels are named the same as the current MVC system.  I am not MVC but the implication was MVC status matches 1 for 1 with Abound

2) President and Chairman level get Titanium status in Marriot Bonvoy annually

3) Vistana owners get Abound status based on a conversation system that *initially* is a flat starpoint ratio.

4) after that initial status conversion, which property you own and how you own in the Vistana system will impact status.  This keeps people from stacking points from cheaper properties to get status.

5) status will mater more in the combined program. They were vague on specifics and said they'd be fired if their management saw the new chairman perks on social media.

6) take 4 and 5 above with a grain of salt since these are salespeople selling something they can't specify or be pinned down on.  That said I haven't been mislead by a Vistana salesperson before. Strong selling? Sure. Lied to? no.

7) Some 4 star Vistana members will qualify at chairman status. We were on the bubble and bought to level up.  Good decision? We like the Nanea and now have 11 days for a 2 bedroom or 3 weeks for a hard-to-reserve 1 bedroom.  So if Abound turns out to be a bust, we have what we like.

Anyways, take that for what it is worth.  What caught my eye was Titanium status on the printed Abound status chart.

I am a Titanium now,  based on my business travel.  We bought our Vistana timeshares with my wife as primary, so now we will both be Titanium, each with suite nights each year (per the sales manager)

I sense there will be an significant integration with the Bonvoy program (deeper than before and deeper than with Vistana SPG) but that is my speculation.

Safe travels, everyone.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

Cody Penn-Dent said:


> Noob here posting for the first time here, and a Vistana owner (4 star between Nanea and Mexico)
> 
> I am at the Nanea right now and had our 'owner update' yesterday.
> 
> ...


Abound is really just the existing Marriott Destinations Program with a new name. I don't see any further integration with Bonvoy than there already is. Yes. the top two levels in Abound (Presidential and Chairmans) get Titanium in Bonvoy. You can convert Abound points to Bonvoy points, but the amount you can convert is dependant on ownership level and even still one can't convert 100% of their Abound points to Bonvoy in a given year.


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## emeryjre (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Yes, it does seem that VSN membership will be required for entry, but will there be a further limiting factor for resale/direct? What about future mandatory resales, will they be eligible to enroll in Abound?


Yep, lots of questions.  The excitement is building on the Vistana side.


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## divenski (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> The last bullet point will answer a lot of concerns for Vistana owners.



This means that Points/Enrolled Owners will be considered equal to VSN weeks owners for 12 mos res. Not sure I like that and especially if Abound status takes priority over time stamps for room choices.

For VSN owners using SO at 8 mos, this probably means less availability.


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## timsi (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Yes, it does seem that VSN membership will be required for entry, but will there be a further limiting factor for resale/direct? What about future mandatory resales, will they be eligible to enroll in Abound?


Maybe they realize that the more complicated, the more issues they have (see the IT problems). 
I do not think the number of mandatory resale deeds is a real problem, or that it will be going forward. Just look at the number mandatory Redweek listings and compare to the 10000-12000 weeks they buy back every year.


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## timsi (Jun 18, 2022)

divenski said:


> This means that Points/Enrolled Owners will be considered equal to VSN weeks owners for 12 mos res. Not sure I like that and especially if Abound status takes priority over time stamps for room choices.
> 
> For VSN owners using SO at 8 mos, this probably means less availability.


IMO Abound should be at 8 months not 12, at par with VSN


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

timsi said:


> IMO Abound should be at 8 months not 12, at par with VSN


Abound is essentially an exchange system/company. Abound can't reserve what an owner doesn't give them. Technically VSN isn't competing with Abound for the same inventory. Abound is limited to only book the number of "weeks" that have been deposited into Abound.


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## Cody Penn-Dent (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Abound is really just the existing Marriott Destinations Program with a new name. I don't see any further integration with Bonvoy than there already is. Yes. the top two levels in Abound (Presidential and Chairmans) get Titanium in Bonvoy. You can convert Abound points to Bonvoy points, but the amount you can convert is dependant on ownership level and even still one can't convert 100% of their Abound points to Bonvoy in a given year.


Thanks.

That helps.

Seems the changes are for the Vistana owners more than for Marriott


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

Cody Penn-Dent said:


> Thanks.
> 
> That helps.
> 
> Seems the changes are for the Vistana owners more than for Marriott


Yeah, Marriott owners won't see much of a change other than a little over 20 additional resorts that they can book into at 12 months out.


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## Venter (Jun 18, 2022)

MICROZE said:


> The *relatively* cheap way to enroll resales and accrue DC-Points once the combined program is rolled out is via Vistana-Resales.
> Here's what we did over the last 2 years.
> Purchased 6 x 2BR-EY-WKV-PLAT+ [148.1K-SO] for an average of ~$12K each resale.
> Enrolled all 6 x WKV by purchasing a Vistana-Retro package [Flex-Points @ $0.40c/Point].
> ...



You will need to buy 1000 points for the first week and then 500 for each week thereafter.


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## Cody Penn-Dent (Jun 18, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Abound is essentially an exchange system/company. Abound can't reserve what an owner doesn't give them. Technically VSN isn't competing with Abound for the same inventory. Abound is limited to only book the number of "weeks" that have been deposited into Abound.


I figured that was the cas


divenski said:


> This means that Points/Enrolled Owners will be considered equal to VSN weeks owners for 12 mos res. Not sure I like that and especially if Abound status takes priority over time stamps for room choices.
> 
> For VSN owners using SO at 8 mos, this probably means less availability.


With SPG you could convert 100%.  So that option remains if someone wanted to move star to bonvoy but, IMO, there are cheaper ways to get bonvoy points.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 18, 2022)

Cody Penn-Dent said:


> I figured that was the cas
> 
> With SPG you could convert 100%.  So that option remains if someone wanted to move star to bonvoy but, IMO, there are cheaper ways to get bonvoy points.


Yes, and using VSN to convert is probably a better conversion ratio than first converting to Abound and then into Bonvoy.


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## timsi (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Abound is essentially an exchange system/company. Abound can't reserve what an owner doesn't give them. *Technically VSN isn't competing with Abound for the same inventory. *Abound is limited to only book the number of "weeks" that have been deposited into Abound.


I do not think that is true. If Abound gets more of the better weeks of the high season (say more Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Presidents etc), more Vistana owners will be tempted to deposit in Abound when they exchange and that will create a problem for VSN. We have no way of knowing what happens behind the curtain. Even if that does not happen, the fact that you can book at 12 months is a big incentive to deposit in Abound and that lowers the availability in VSN.  Abound is direct competition to VSN, 100%.  Do not forget that Marriott has an economic  incentive to favor Abound, because of the skim, and allowing Abound to book Vistana at 12 months should show us right from the start the side they are on.


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## CPNY (Jun 19, 2022)

Cody Penn-Dent said:


> Noob here posting for the first time here, and a Vistana owner (4 star between Nanea and Mexico)
> 
> I am at the Nanea right now and had our 'owner update' yesterday.
> 
> ...


I’m titanium and I have yet to see any benefit. 2 of the last 4 Marriott stays I wasn’t even “thanked” for being a bonvoy member…. I’ve asked for extra towels, no extra towels. I’ve asked for specific room locations (away from elevators and ice machines) and I’m placed across from the elevator or Ice machine. Marriott hotels is terrible and their loyalty program on the hotel and vacation club side are not worth it. Hilton does a much better job at honoring their members. I guess that’s why it’s called Hilton honors.


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## CPNY (Jun 19, 2022)

timsi said:


> I do not think that is true. If Abound gets more of the better weeks of the high season (say more Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Presidents etc), more Vistana owners will be tempted to deposit in Abound when they exchange and that will create a problem for VSN. We have no way of knowing what happens behind the curtain. Even if that does not happen, the fact that you can book at 12 months is a big incentive to deposit in Abound and that lowers the availability in VSN.  Abound is direct competition to VSN, 100%.  Do not forget that Marriott has an economic  incentive to favor Abound, because of the skim, and allowing Abound to book Vistana at 12 months should show us right from the start the side they are on.


It depends on what the underlying inventory is for the DC point and Flex owners that gets deposited. If a Sheraton flex owner deposits 44K flex options into Abound, Marriott can make a small one bedroom in a low season that corresponds to that amount of options available in abound. They will likely keep high demand weeks for themselves to rent out for revenue. If a high demand deeded week converts then I’d assume that deeded week would be deposited into abound. Of course this is assuming Marriott makes it fair. I can see them taking that high demand deeded week for their own use and depositing another week in its place.


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## GetawaysRus (Jun 19, 2022)

Cody Penn-Dent said:


> Noob here posting for the first time here, and a Vistana owner (4 star between Nanea and Mexico)
> 
> I am a Titanium now,  based on my business travel.  We bought our Vistana timeshares with my wife as primary, so now we will both be Titanium, each with suite nights each year (per the sales manager)



I'm not so sure that the Vistana sales reps are correct about that. I thought that the Marriott Bonvoy Choice Benefits were earned based on elite night credits. Bonvoy members  get one Choice Benefit at 50 nights and a second Choice Benefit at 75 nights. 

So because you earn your Bonvoy status based on hotel stays related to your business travel, you would be eligible. But I'm not so sure that you wife will get the same benefit because her Titanium status is based on her timeshare ownership rather than elite night stays. She might have to earn her own 50 or 75 Bonvoy elite night credits (from some combination of Bonvoy credit cards, timeshare stays at Marriott or Vistana resorts, and hotel stays) in order to earn the Choice Benefits.

If I'm wrong about this, I'm sure someone will quickly correct me.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

timsi said:


> I do not think that is true. If Abound gets more of the better weeks of the high season (say more Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Presidents etc), more Vistana owners will be tempted to deposit in Abound when they exchange and that will create a problem for VSN. We have no way of knowing what happens behind the curtain. Even if that does not happen, the fact that you can book at 12 months is a big incentive to deposit in Abound and that lowers the availability in VSN.  Abound is direct competition to VSN, 100%.  Do not forget that Marriott has an economic  incentive to favor Abound, because of the skim, and allowing Abound to book Vistana at 12 months should show us right from the start the side they are on.


It is still separate inventy. For every week that is deposited into Abound, that is another chunk of StarOptions that won't be competing for VSN inventory. The skim is not in the favor of depositing into Abound. You lose a little when you elect Abound Club Points.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

GetawaysRus said:


> I'm not so sure that the Vistana sales reps are correct about that. I thought that the Marriott Bonvoy Choice Benefits were earned based on elite night credits. Bonvoy members get one Choice Benefit at 50 nights and a second Choice Benefit at 75 nights.


That is correct, you have to actually earn the elite nights each year in order to choose the Annual Choice Benefit. Just having Titanium from timeshare ownership isn't enough to get the free night.


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## MICROZE (Jun 19, 2022)

Venter said:


> You will need to buy 1000 points for the first week and then 500 for each week thereafter.


Hi @Venter,

I assume you are referring to purchasing DCP-Points on the Marriott-Side.
Is this a new offer from Marriott to enroll resale weeks?


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## Venter (Jun 19, 2022)

MICROZE said:


> Hi @Venter,
> 
> I assume you are referring to purchasing DCP-Points on the Marriott-Side.
> Is this a new offer from Marriott to enroll resale weeks?


Yes, I am referring to points on the marriott side.  I am purchasing to enroll Vistana VOI's.


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## pacman777 (Jun 19, 2022)

GetawaysRus said:


> I'm not so sure that the Vistana sales reps are correct about that. I thought that the Marriott Bonvoy Choice Benefits were earned based on elite night credits. Bonvoy members  get one Choice Benefit at 50 nights and a second Choice Benefit at 75 nights.
> 
> So because you earn your Bonvoy status based on hotel stays related to your business travel, you would be eligible. But I'm not so sure that you wife will get the same benefit because her Titanium status is based on her timeshare ownership rather than elite night stays. She might have to earn her own 50 or 75 Bonvoy elite night credits (from some combination of Bonvoy credit cards, timeshare stays at Marriott or Vistana resorts, and hotel stays) in order to earn the Choice Benefits.
> 
> If I'm wrong about this, I'm sure someone will quickly correct me.



You are spot on. I’m lifetime Titanium earned from hotel stays and the additional perks like suite nights (which are pretty much worthless by the way) have to be earned every year from hotel stays


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## timsi (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> It is still separate inventy. For every week that is deposited into Abound, that is another chunk of StarOptions that won't be competing for VSN inventory. The skim is not in the favor of depositing into Abound. You lose a little when you elect Abound Club Points.


Yes, you lose a little but Marriott gains a little and they do not have that in VSN where there is no skim. So if the rules or their actions favor Abound, it would be for a reason.


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## Mowogo (Jun 19, 2022)

timsi said:


> I do not think that is true. If Abound gets more of the better weeks of the high season (say more Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Presidents etc), more Vistana owners will be tempted to deposit in Abound when they exchange and that will create a problem for VSN. We have no way of knowing what happens behind the curtain. Even if that does not happen, the fact that you can book at 12 months is a big incentive to deposit in Abound and that lowers the availability in VSN.  Abound is direct competition to VSN, 100%.  Do not forget that Marriott has an economic  incentive to favor Abound, because of the skim, and allowing Abound to book Vistana at 12 months should show us right from the start the side they are on.


Vistana Elite Flex owners have every incentive to deposit into Abound.  Turning the relatively restricted flex points into full flexibility points that cross all brands is actually a reasonable trade, especially if you happen to have reservations that are booked for the true low dates in the granular charts.


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## Superchief (Jun 19, 2022)

An important issue for me is how many points are allocated for each Vistana resort week, what are the point requirements to stay there, and how do they vary by season. I assume that MVC point allocations, seasons, and redemptions won't change. Supply and demand will be greatly impacted by this.


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## jabberwocky (Jun 19, 2022)

Mowogo said:


> Vistana Elite Flex owners have every incentive to deposit into Abound.  Turning the relatively restricted flex points into full flexibility points that cross all brands is actually a reasonable trade, especially if you happen to have reservations that are booked for the true low dates in the granular charts.


How are Flex points restricted?  More choices isn’t necessarily better if they get me fewer days at the resorts I want to go to.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> How are Flex points restricted?  More choices isn’t necessarily better if they get me fewer days at the resorts I want to go to.


They are really only restricted in that they can book a select number of resorts at 12 months. If one decides to deposit into Abound, they get to pick from a lot more resorts. That election of Club Points comes at a cost though. As you mention, you may not get as much time at the resorts you want to go to. Some people will do the comparison to see if it makes sense. Some may be okay with less time in order to go to that other resort and will elect. Others may not do that and will book their home resort or use StarOptions at 8-months. Some will just blindly elect points every year. Many different variables at play here,


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## jabberwocky (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> They are really only restricted in that they can book a select number of resorts at 12 months. If one decides to deposit into Abound, they get to pick from a lot more resorts. That election of Club Points comes at a cost though. As you mention, you may not get as much time at the resorts you want to go to. Some people will do the comparison to see if it makes sense. Some may be okay with less time in order to go to that other resort and will elect. Others may not do that and will book their home resort or use StarOptions at 8-months. Some will just blindly elect points every year. Many different variables at play here,


But they are no more restricted than when I purchased WFlex. If it makes sense and there is a particular place I want to visit that isn’t in Vistana I will elect, but I don’t think I would do so every year.

I just find it amusing for people to dump on a system they have no experience with.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 19, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I’m titanium and I have yet to see any benefit. 2 of the last 4 Marriott stays I wasn’t even “thanked” for being a bonvoy member…. I’ve asked for extra towels, no extra towels. I’ve asked for specific room locations (away from elevators and ice machines) and I’m placed across from the elevator or Ice machine. Marriott hotels is terrible and their loyalty program on the hotel and vacation club side are not worth it. Hilton does a much better job at honoring their members. I guess that’s why it’s called Hilton honors.



BonVoy status, even titanium or ambassador, means almost nothing when staying at a timeshare. What matters is ownership level within the MVC system, Owner, Select, Executive, Presidential or Chairman.

We’ve been titanium for a few years now. I’ve had good luck with our hotel stays. We were even upgraded to a suite when we stayed at the SFO airport Westin a few months ago. I have noticed that not all Marriott hotels are equal. Marriott seems to have a fare number of franchised hotels that do their own thing. The Springhill Suites at Fort Meyers follows your experience of poor customer service. It got low grades from us when we reviewed it and we’ll never stay at that location again. We were treated well at the Sheraton Plaza hotel in Kansas City and had a decent experience with the Residence Inn on The Plaza in Kansas City. We also had a very good experience at the Springhill Suites in Bozeman, MT and a reasonable stay at the Townplace Suites in Hays, KS.


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## CPNY (Jun 19, 2022)

dougp26364 said:


> BonVoy status, even titanium or ambassador, means almost nothing when staying at a timeshare. What matters is ownership level within the MVC system, Owner, Select, Executive, Presidential or Chairman.
> 
> We’ve been titanium for a few years now. It’s great at the hotels. It doesn’t matter s9 much at the timeshares. We do get a BonVoy points bonus so long as we have our BonVoy # on the reservation. Otherwise we’ve seen no benefit to being titanium BonVoy members


I’m not talking about staying at timeshares…. I’m talking about staying at hotels. 2 of my last 4 hotel stays I was never even thanked and 4 of my last 4 stays, my simple room requests (not upgrade request) were ignored. Speaking of upgrades…. I’ve received one in the last 10 stays and I was upgraded to a room SMALLER than the room I booked. Again, everything I’m mentioning is at the hotels.

I stayed at a Hilton as a regular non elite guest and had impeccable service. I even requested a few things and they were honored no problem. I felt valued as a Hilton guest without status than I do as a titanium bonvoy member. The only great thing about titanium is the 4pm checkout. Honestly, even then, I could just book an extra night when I need a late checkout which I do often


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## dougp26364 (Jun 19, 2022)

@CPNY,
I edited my post once I realized you were talking hotels and not timeshares. Sorry for my assumption that you were talking timeshare on a thread about the Abound change.

I’m not sure what the hotel side has to do with the Abound change or why it’s pertinent to the timeshare side discussion.


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## californiagirl (Jun 19, 2022)

After reading this thread and looking at the Vistana destinations, I think the only benefits to existing DP club members either enrolled or purchased are the resorts in Mexico and Harborside in the Bahamas.  Otherwise MVC has resorts in the same or similar locations.


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## CPNY (Jun 19, 2022)

dougp26364 said:


> @CPNY,
> I edited my post once I realized you were talking hotels and not timeshares. Sorry for my assumption that you were talking timeshare on a thread about the Abound change.
> 
> I’m not sure what the hotel side has to do with the Abound change or why it’s pertinent to the timeshare side discussion.


I was just responding to someone who brought up the bonvoy program that’s all.


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## timsi (Jun 19, 2022)

Mowogo said:


> Vistana Elite Flex owners have every incentive to deposit into Abound.  Turning the relatively restricted flex points into full flexibility points that cross all brands is actually a reasonable trade, especially if you happen to have reservations that are booked for the true low dates in the granular charts.


The Vistana owners bought Vistana for a reason, they like the resorts and the locations. If you look at the beach locations for example, Vistana has a very large percentage of resorts oceanfront (11 out of 23!). Many think that the Vistana studios are much better than Marriott.... and I can go on. 

The incentives I am referring to do not relate to specific Marriott resorts or their number but to the ability to exchange in Abound at 12 months, a right that the Vistana owners do not have through the internal VSN exchanges. This was created artificially by Marriott and, as far as I can tell,  against  the Vistana rules. I am very curious what will happen in reality. A lot of Marriott owners (and sales people) claimed that they would be able to book Vistana in Abound at 13 months. It appears that is not going to happen and probable due to the same Vistana rules I was talking about. I do not see how they can take those rules into consideration at 13 months but start to ignore them at 12.


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## Red elephant (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Abound is essentially an exchange system/company. Abound can't reserve what an owner doesn't give them. Technically VSN isn't competing with Abound for the same inventory. Abound is limited to only book the number of "weeks" that have been deposited into Abound.


This is what I was made to understand by central sales.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 19, 2022)

californiagirl said:


> After reading this thread and looking at the Vistana destinations, I think the only benefits to existing DP club members either enrolled or purchased are the resorts in Mexico and Harborside in the Bahamas.  Otherwise MVC has resorts in the same or similar locations.



There’s at least one resort we prefer to Marriott, and that’s the Westin Kierland in Scottsdale. Better resort, better location IMHO. It’s the only Westin we’ve had the privilege to spend time in. I’m pretty sure we’ll look at others where both Marriott and Westin are in the same location.

Sheraton has some locations within drivable distance in Colorado that will work for us. Honestly, Marriott doesn’t have a lot of options that are attractive to us in Colorado.


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## Red elephant (Jun 19, 2022)

timsi said:


> I do not think that is true. If Abound gets more of the better weeks of the high season (say more Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Presidents etc), more Vistana owners will be tempted to deposit in Abound when they exchange and that will create a problem for VSN. We have no way of knowing what happens behind the curtain. Even if that does not happen, the fact that you can book at 12 months is a big incentive to deposit in Abound and that lowers the availability in VSN.  Abound is direct competition to VSN, 100%.  Do not forget that Marriott has an economic  incentive to favor Abound, because of the skim, and allowing Abound to book Vistana at 12 months should show us right from the start the side they are on.


The  people who loose with this I think is the 8 month booking in VSN as availability will shrink.


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## timsi (Jun 19, 2022)

Red elephant said:


> The  people who loose with this I think is the 8 month booking in VSN as availability will shrink.


Marriott will decide how many weeks will be available at 12 months in each bucket and any week in Abound will be one less week in  the home reservations bucket. The best weeks at the best resorts will be harder and harder to book. It is not just VSN that will be affected.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

Red elephant said:


> The  people who loose with this I think is the 8 month booking in VSN as availability will shrink.


I think we may see availability go down for certain resorts (Hawaii) where lots of Club Points are offered for electing Club Points. Overall though, as availability goes down so does the number of people competing for that remaining inventory. Once a week is deposited into Abound, that week, along with its StarOptions, can no longer be used to reserve in VSN.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

In addition to VSN 8 month, deeded owners at desirable locations will also lose if Abound enrolled week trades are available to Abound traders at 12 months.  There will be extra weeks that the deeded owners cannot access because those enrolled week have been artificially blocked by MVC and made available in Abound to non-deeded owners (e.g. what if there is an extra week during whale week. Why can't a deeded owner have access to that since they have deeded access rights to inventory at 12 months for weeks 1 - 50?)

Abound Points breakage and inevitable lockoffs by Abound to 1 bedroom and studios will make fewer weeks available as well.

Abound is a trading system and owners who deposit their enrolled week surrender their rights to the best week and views at their resort and become a trading class similar to II. Those priority rights should not transfer to the trading system because MVC is not guaranteeing that those enrolled traders have priority rights to best view and weeks at other resorts (which they do not). i.e. there is no 1:1 trade of week, view and location rights therefore you cannot argue that Abound has rights to artificially block inventory from existing deeded owners and offer that to non-owners;  there has been no like-kind priority offered in trade. The week surrendered by the owner to trade non-owners should fall to the back of the line in week and view priority because those rights were lost in the trade.

If Abound allows enrolled week trading at 12 months that is a huge mistake and a raises potential for a lawsuit from Vistana deeded weeks owners whose access rights to deeded weeks will be limited if MVC artificially manipulates the inventory and offers any enrolled weeks in trade that would be demanded by deeded owner such as an event week or priority view.

NOTE: I am referring to enrolled weeks trades not trust week trades which is a different animal.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 19, 2022)

Red elephant said:


> The  people who loose with this I think is the 8 month booking in VSN as availability will shrink.



Maybe, maybe not.

The only way those weeks make it into Abound is if owners elect to convert them to points, and at that point they also have access to the 12 month window.

Overall Marriott has done a good job of managing inventory so that’s there’s as little disruption as possible. There will be some, but my bet is it will be less than what’s speculated.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 19, 2022)

I remember in the early days of DC there was speculation that Marriott would book up all the high demand weeks for DC reservations and block out all those high demand weeks for weeks based reservations at 13 or 12 months. The thing is though that many point owners don't want to travel during those high demand times when points are a premium. So there isn't necessarily an incentive for Marriott to steal all the great weeks for DC reservations and leave the crumbs. DC point users like crumbs too.


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## Mowogo (Jun 19, 2022)

timsi said:


> The Vistana owners bought Vistana for a reason, they like the resorts and the locations. If you look at the beach locations for example, Vistana has a very large percentage of resorts oceanfront (11 out of 23!). Many think that the Vistana studios are much better than Marriott.... and I can go on.


Many Vistana owners bought because they were convinced at a sales presentation that Vistana was good enough. We need to remember that TUG is in NO WAY representative of the average owner. Yes, the studios are better but remember that many flex owners bought into flexibility Not understanding the weeds of how the flex product was created and funded.  Now instead of having just your trust, you have access to almost every resort in Vistana plus Marriott. If the matching of elite statuses goes as reported for existing Vistana elites, you are now talking a flex product that has access to everything at 13 months for Marriott and 12 months for Vistana can make for some compelling leverage since you are already on the flex train.  Add in that owners updates are going to be pushing the new options hard, there could be quite a bit of Vistana inventory available at 12 months.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> In addition to VSN 8 month, deeded owners at desirable locations will also lose if Abound enrolled week trades are available to Abound traders at 12 months.  There will be extra weeks that the deeded owners cannot access because those enrolled week have been artificially blocked by MVC and made available in Abound to non-deeded owners (e.g. what if there is an extra week during whale week. Why can't a deeded owner have access to that since they have deeded access rights to inventory at 12 months for weeks 1 - 50?)
> 
> Abound Points breakage and inevitable lockoffs by Abound to 1 bedroom and studios will make fewer weeks available as well.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure I understand how a Vistana owner choosing to elect their deeded week for Abound Points is any different than if they had decided instead to deposit their deeded week in II. I admittedly am not all that familiar with the VSN program, but they seem the same to me.

1) Vistana week owner decides at 12 months to deposit their week to II to trade to a location Vistana has no locations. The program manager thus has to take a week from their season/view/size and give that to II and, in turn, the owner gets trade currency in II. That week is no longer available to other Vistana deeded week owners, but is is bookable by other II owners outside of Vistana as soon as it hits the II exchange system.

2) Vistana week owner decides at 12 months to elect their week for Abound ClubPoints to book a MVC location. The program manager thus has to take a week from their season/view/size and give that to the Abound Exchange and, in turn, the owner gets an allocation of Abound ClubPoints to spend. That week is no longer available to other deeded week owners, but is is bookable by other Abound members outside of Vistana as soon as it hits the Abound Exchange.

To me, these seem basically the same. In both cases, the week is no longer available to other owners prior to 8 months. What nuance am I missing?


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## Dean (Jun 19, 2022)

californiagirl said:


> After reading this thread and looking at the Vistana destinations, I think the only benefits to existing DP club members either enrolled or purchased are the resorts in Mexico and Harborside in the Bahamas.  Otherwise MVC has resorts in the same or similar locations.


And Harbourside is one of the 2 resorts not currently included.  IMO it's an OK resort with a good but not great location.  For me personally it wouldn't' add much and the MX resorts would add nothing, same is true for St. Johns for us but I know not for others.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jun 19, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I'm not sure I understand how a Vistana owner choosing to elect their deeded week for Abound Points is any different than if they had decided instead to deposit their deeded week in II. I admittedly am not all that familiar with the VSN program, but they seem the same to me.
> 
> 1) Vistana week owner decides at 12 months to deposit their week to II to trade to a location Vistana has no locations. The program manager thus has to take a week from their season/view/size and give that to II and, in turn, the owner gets trade currency in II. That week is no longer available to other Vistana deeded week owners, but is is bookable by other II owners outside of Vistana as soon as it hits the II exchange system.
> 
> ...



a) Breakage by many more mid-week Abound stays who will want to conserve points at this expensive resort or extend MOC. Reducing ownership stay weeks.

b) More Lockoffs (II  & Abound) cutting into 2 bdrm ownership week pools.

c) II doesn't get the best priority weeks and views. Typically the leftovers.  What does a Chairman/Titanium/Intergalactic Elite get in terms of priority in Abound? Especially when Vistana Elites now merge? In WKORV the priority for view is 1) Timestamp 2) Vistana Elite owner 3) Regular owner timestamp if both the same 3) VSN, II others... (not sure of the order)


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## MICROZE (Jun 19, 2022)

Venter said:


> Yes, I am referring to points on the marriott side.  I am purchasing to enroll Vistana VOI's.


This is the best I have seen offered by Marriott.

All of the offers made to me entailed spending a minimum of over $30K to enroll anything.
Will be attending a presentation on Tuesday at Mountainside and will ask what are their current offers.

Someone just posted *here *that they were asked to purchase 2500-DCP for $32K to enroll their deeded week.


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## MikeM132 (Jun 19, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> It is still separate inventy. For every week that is deposited into Abound, that is another chunk of StarOptions that won't be competing for VSN inventory. The skim is not in the favor of depositing into Abound. You lose a little when you elect Abound Club Points.


Indeed. Plus, a week is always a week. The number of points per week is subject to change. Remember when your 115,000 Marriott Rewards Points for your week got you a nice hotel stay? Now it's 3 nights in a Courtyard.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 19, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> a) Breakage by many more mid-week Abound stays who will want to conserve points at this expensive resort or extend MOC. Reducing ownership stay weeks.
> 
> b) More Lockoffs (II  & Abound) cutting into 2 bdrm ownership week pools.
> 
> c) II doesn't get the best priority weeks and views. Typically the leftovers.  What does a Chairman/Titanium/Intergalactic Elite get in terms of priority in Abound? Especially when Vistana Elites now merge? In WKORV the priority for view is 1) Timestamp 2) Vistana Elite owner 3) Regular owner timestamp if both the same 3) VSN, II others... (not sure of the order)



a) But if a week is broken once it's in Abound, that just limits what other Abound members can do. Only one week is taken from the Vistana owner bucket regardless of whether it is booked as a full week or broken after it gets into the Abound Exchange. The breakage, if it happens, is a negative for Abound members but the Vistana owners are not harmed by that breakage.

b) In the MVC Exchange lockoffs are irrelevant. If you own an enrolled 2BR lockoff, you must deposit the entire 2BR. I assume it will be the same in Abound.

c) In the MVC DC, and I assume in Abound, you book the view you want. If you want OF you spend more points. View is not based on ownership or elite level. The only thing owner status might impact is specific unit assignment within your view category at check-in. In MVC, that process varies by resort, but is discussed in depth in this thread https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/villa-assignment-by-ownership-type-observations.339998/

You are correct that the Abound program manager will have the discretion to choose which specific weeks they deposit into the Abound Exchange, just as they have discretion to decide which specific weeks they give to II, or that go into the rental pool when someone converts to Bonvoy points. They could certainly abuse that privilege if they were so inclined and put all the best weeks into Abound, but they haven't seemed to be abusing that power in the 12 years of the Destination Club. Every piece of inside intelligence I've ever read here on TUG has indicated that they put great effort into allocating inventory fairly between the various inventory buckets.


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## Bodie (Jun 20, 2022)

rthib said:


> I am going to be optimistic and assume that they have been spending all there time on the new website and that is the reason they haven’t fixed anything on old one


Talked to a MVC rep, today.  Poor thing, there have been a lot of very angry people calling.  She said that corporate told them that the new properties are being integrated into the system  and the website  should be fixed by end of July.  That doesn't exactly answer why the site can't accommodate that which is there but, oh well.  She did mention that the Vistana, etc purchases would have "restrictions", whatever that means.  Nothing good for us, I'm sure.  Anyway, remember these reps can only impart info that the company gives them.   It's clear MVC is doing a lousy job providing them with the tools they need and they are taking a lot of abuse.


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## sfcolliejr (Jun 21, 2022)

We are at Desert Willows this week, until June 26th. We will go to an owner update on Friday. Will post any new information that they have after.


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## The Colorado Kid (Jun 21, 2022)

sfcolliejr said:


> We are at Desert Willows this week, until June 26th. We will go to an owner update on Friday. Will post any new information that they have after.


What are they offering for the meeting incentive if you don't mind sharing?


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## MICROZE (Jun 21, 2022)

MICROZE said:


> This is the best I have seen offered by Marriott.
> 
> All of the offers made to me entailed spending a minimum of over $30K to enroll anything.
> Will be attending a presentation on Tuesday at Mountainside and will ask what are their current offers.
> ...


UPDATE

At our presentation at Mountainside today we were informed that there is no such offer from Marriott. At least not available to us.

Purchase 1000-DCP to Enroll 1-Resale-Contract, followed by a purchase of 500-DCP to enroll each additional Resale-Contract.
The only offer we were presented was:

Purchase 2500-DCP to Enroll 1-Resale-Contract,
Purchase 3500-DCP to Enroll 2-Resale-Contracts
Purchase 5000-DCP to Enroll 3+ Contracts. Not sure exactly how much as I wasn't paying attention by this time.
Not very informational other than being told that everything will be formally rolled out in July. Not sure beginning or end.
Discovered that our VSN-Portfolio is worth 35045-DCP/Year. Already accrue +20K-DCP with MVCI.
Received glossy booklets [Westin + Sheraton] depicting the DCP-Points needed to make reservations.

*Confirmed what our VSN-Contracts are in equivalent DCP;*

2BR-EY-WLR-P+ = 4950-DCP [Ratio: 30-SO::1-DCP]
2BR-EY-*WKV*-P+ = 4050-DCP [Ratio: 36.57-SO::1-DCP] *BAD-VALUE*
51700-AVE-Flex = 1725-DCP [Ratio: 30-SO::1-DCP]
Today's DCP-Rate: *$16.08/DCP*.
They tried to sell us a Hybrid-Package [1-Week-3000-DCP] + 1000-DCP] that we turned down as we don't need to exceed 60K-DCP/Year.
Hybrid-Package purchase would work out to $7.45/DCP.
Low pressure and respectful experience.
*
Presentation-Incentive: *40K-Bonvoy or $200-Visa or $250-Steakouse-Certificate.


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## Dean (Jun 21, 2022)

MICROZE said:


> UPDATE
> 
> At our presentation at Mountainside today we were informed that there is no such offer from Marriott. At least not available to us.
> 
> ...


I got the sense this was for multiple non MVC weeks.  I suspect the salesperson was simply breaking it down in a different way to create confusion and had they simply wanted to enroll 1 week it would have magically been 2500 points instead.


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## Bodie (Jun 24, 2022)

californiagirl said:


> After reading this thread and looking at the Vistana destinations, I think the only benefits to existing DP club members either enrolled or purchased are the resorts in Mexico and Harborside in the Bahamas.  Otherwise MVC has resorts in the same or similar locations.


Agree.  I'm not impressed with these new additions but for Mexico and the Bahamas.   


californiagirl said:


> After reading this thread and looking at the Vistana destinations, I think the only benefits to existing DP club members either enrolled or purchased are the resorts in Mexico and Harborside in the Bahamas.  Otherwise MVC has resorts in the same or similar locations.
> [/QUOTE


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## sfcolliejr (Jun 25, 2022)

The Colorado Kid said:


> What are they offering for the meeting incentive if you don't mind sharing?


We got $200 Visa gift card for signing up. They were completely booked on Friday the 24th.


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## sfcolliejr (Jun 25, 2022)

We attended an Owner Update at Desert Willows on Friday the 24. The sales person said that they had just been at training, had new Marriott computers. Not really informative. We have approximately 276,000 Vistana options. She showed us a conversion alogrithm on the Marriott site (to be rolled out later). Our options coverted to approximately 9480 Marriott Abound points. This puts us just below the Marriott Vacation club presidential level of 10,000+ points. She wanted us to spend approximately $16K more which would put us way over the 10,000 Presidential points needed. We will not spend additional money and refused.  She also showed us all of the Marriott timeshare properties but that information was already available. In summary, our sales person did not have complete information at our meeting. We want to go to the Marriott on the big island, she showed us a points sheet for that property.


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## kozykritter (Jun 25, 2022)

sfcolliejr said:


> We attended an Owner Update at Desert Willows on Friday the 24. The sales person said that they had just been at training, had new Marriott computers. Not really informative. We have approximately 276,000 Vistana options. She showed us a conversion alogrithm on the Marriott site (to be rolled out later). Our options coverted to approximately 9480 Marriott Abound points. This puts us just below the Marriott Vacation club presidential level of 10,000+ points. She wanted us to spend approximately $16K more which would put us way over the 10,000 Presidential points needed. We will not spend additional money and refused.  She also showed us all of the Marriott timeshare properties but that information was already available. In summary, our sales person did not have complete information at our meeting. We want to go to the Marriott on the big island, she showed us a points sheet for that property.


You would be better off spending that same amount of money for 1,000 points from Marriott because being an owner in both systems appears like it's going to have some extra benefits as things continue to integrate. If it makes you feel any better (or worse), the Marriott sales staff really don't know anything about what's happening either other than the general idea behind Abound.


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## iowaguy09 (Jun 25, 2022)

Has anyone heard that per Marriott Vacation new policy, as of July 15, Vistana EOY contracts cannot be traded in towards a new annual contract in any developer transactions?


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## jabberwocky (Jun 25, 2022)

iowaguy09 said:


> Has anyone heard that per Marriott Vacation new policy, as of July 15, Vistana EOY contracts cannot be traded in towards a new annual contract in any developer transactions?


You asked this question in the Vistana forum earlier today. I don’t think Marriott has ever taken Vistana weeks back towards a Marriott developer transaction.

https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/t...t-link-vistana-discussion.332276/post-2804137


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## iowaguy09 (Jun 25, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> You asked this question in the Vistana forum earlier today. I don’t think Marriott has ever taken Vistana weeks back towards a Marriott developer transaction.
> 
> https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/t...t-link-vistana-discussion.332276/post-2804137


Yes, it am guilty of asking the question in both forums.  I only repeated it in the MVC forum because Vistana ownership was brought into the thread.


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## frank808 (Jun 26, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I’m not talking about staying at timeshares…. I’m talking about staying at hotels. 2 of my last 4 hotel stays I was never even thanked and 4 of my last 4 stays, my simple room requests (not upgrade request) were ignored. Speaking of upgrades…. I’ve received one in the last 10 stays and I was upgraded to a room SMALLER than the room I booked. Again, everything I’m mentioning is at the hotels.
> 
> I stayed at a Hilton as a regular non elite guest and had impeccable service. I even requested a few things and they were honored no problem. I felt valued as a Hilton guest without status than I do as a titanium bonvoy member. The only great thing about titanium is the 4pm checkout. Honestly, even then, I could just book an extra night when I need a late checkout which I do often


I get about the same from being a lifetime Titanium and Diamond Honors members at both their Hotels. It can be a hit or miss. Been to both hotel brands during pandemic and was not even upgraded from a basic hotel room. At Reidence Inn in Burbank when the hotel was less than 30% occupied, I tried to use SNA. Was denied because there were no rooms available. Checked Marriott website and there were 1br and larger units available. Asked at check in and was told no rooms available for upgrades. Showed clerk my phone with all rooms available. Was told sorry we have none available for upgrades. Even called Marriott customer service line and was told it is up to each individual hotel owner to make upgrades available. 

I learned one thing about these hotel loyalty programs(Marriott and hilton), it is to turn you into a loyal guest with dreams of upgrades. But when it comes to fulfilling those promises, there is always a way out. False sense of loyalty is what i get out of it. Now I just play their game and get as many free nights or discounted nights with the annual credit cards. 

I just get a night from the free(Hilton aspire) to the $130 (Marriott brilliant) credit card. 

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## Quilter (Jun 26, 2022)

MICROZE said:


> UPDATE
> 
> At our presentation at Mountainside today we were informed that there is no such offer from Marriott. At least not available to us.
> 
> ...



Can you tell us the resort/season that was presented with the hybrid option?


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## Quilter (Jun 26, 2022)

I've gone through this thread and still find myself wondering how the DC program changes will affect our ownership.  We're Chairman level from legacy ownership.

The best I can summarize is the following:

1).  Hoping the website will be better by the end of July.

2).  Roughly 20 new resorts added for exchange.   

3).  New VSN members won't have to pay anything to enroll.   

4).  Destinations Club name will change to Abound.

Is this it?

If new VSN members don't have any fees to enroll their weeks (developer or resale) I want a $1500 refund.  We enrolled our 7 weeks (3 were resales) early and have been part of the 60% utilizing the point system.   It's disappointing our loyalty will be dismissed as new members come in with no enrollment fees.


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## kozykritter (Jun 26, 2022)

Quilter said:


> I've gone through this thread and still find myself wondering how the DC program changes will affect our ownership.  We're Chairman level from legacy ownership.
> 
> The best I can summarize is the following:
> 
> ...


There has been no announcement on which VSN owners will be eligible to enroll and then which of those can do it for free. While it's been assumed that developer purchases will be able to enroll and do it for free, the fate of resales has been a constant mystery and the topic of many many threads. Hopefully all will be revealed soon.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 26, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> There has been no announcement on which VSN owners will be eligible to enroll and then which of those can do it for free. While it's been assumed that developer purchases will be able to enroll and do it for free, the fate of resales has been a constant mystery and the topic of many many threads. Hopefully all will be revealed soon.


My enrolled Marriott Weeks are all developer purchases and I was required to pay an Enrollment Fee when the Destination Club was introduced. Granted, the initial EF's were tiered and based on whether or not the eligible Weeks were purchased direct or on the external resale market, but at the introduction EVERY previously-sold Week was eligible and EVERY enrollment required payment of the one time Enrollment Fee. It was years before that fee was waive-able with certain sales incentives or webinar viewings.

I understand @Quilter's angst at having to pay an EF as a Marriott Weeks owner if no such animal is going to exist for eligible Vistana owners. I don't think it will make one bit of difference to complain about it, though, because if TUG is any indication Marriott is going to have to go way above and beyond what should be reasonable to convince Vistana people that enrollment can be advantageous and Abound isn't just a program to suck all the dollars it can out of their pockets while cheating them out of their rightful ownership. At this point I'm just hoping that any mention of an EF for eligible Marriott owners disappears as soon as the Vistana ownerships are integrated.


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## kozykritter (Jun 26, 2022)

I agree. Given the general sentiment of Vistana owners towards Marriott, they will have to give Vistana owner some type of strong incentive to pledge their ownership inventory over to Abound or else they may end up with many disappointed Marriott owners who barely have any Vistana inventory to book after it being hyped to them and even used as a sales tool to get them to buy more points. Vistana is already a fully developed system with weeks owners and points owners and an internal exchange system and many owners are perfectly happy with what exists..Not charging an enrollment fee or requiring a points purchase is one option to entice people, though it might not be enough to make a large amount enroll. Another would be to release detailed facts that confirm that the existing Vistana system is not being dissolved or diminished with all the changes. As you've seen on here, fear and distrust of "the evil giant" runs deep among Vistana owners after the SPG integration experience.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 26, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> I agree. Given the general sentiment of Vistana owners towards Marriott, they will have to give Vistana owner some type of strong incentive to pledge their ownership inventory over to Abound or else they may end up with many disappointed Marriott owners who barely have any Vistana inventory to book after it being hyped to them and even used as a sales tool to get them to buy more points. Vistana is already a fully developed system with weeks owners and points owners and an internal exchange system and many owners are perfectly happy with what exists..Not charging an enrollment fee or requiring a points purchase is one option to entice people, though it might not be enough to make a large amount enroll. Another would be to release detailed facts that confirm that the existing Vistana system is not being dissolved or diminished with all the changes. As you've seen on here, fear and distrust of "the evil giant" runs deep among Vistana owners after the SPG integration.


Well, from this side of the house, let me just say that, "given the general sentiment of Vistana owners towards Marriott," enforced by what I'm reading on TUG from Vistana owners, I couldn't care less if Vistana is integrated into the DC/Abound. IMO it's absolutely ridiculous, and the height of entitlement, for Vistana owners to think that Marriott owes them any more from Abound than any Marriott owners have ever gotten from the DC. It's not Marriott that's fostering the "general sentiment" yet it's apparently expected that Marriott must give over and above what they've given Marriott owners to combat it? That's crap.


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## kozykritter (Jun 26, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> Well, from this side of the house, let me just say that, "given the general sentiment of Vistana owners towards Marriott," enforced by what I'm reading on TUG from Vistana owners, I couldn't care less if Vistana is integrated into the DC/Abound. IMO it's absolutely ridiculous, and the height of entitlement, for Vistana owners to think that Marriott owes them any more from Abound than any Marriott owners have ever gotten from the DC. It's not Marriott that's fostering the "general sentiment" yet it's apparently expected that Marriott must give over and above to combat it? That's crap.


I understand. Regardless of whether if it seems appropriate or not, that is the situation that Marriott faces in trying to make its acquisition pay off. You have to remember that Vistana owners didn't ask for any of this. They didn't ask to wake up one morning to find their timeshare system was spun off and sold by another company and they didn't ask to be integrated into another timeshare system. While some owners like me see it as a positive and have jumped on the bandwagon by buying MVC points, I would guess for most Vistana owners the entire experience has seemed like a threat to their ownership and the system that they have enjoyed for years.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 26, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> I understand. Regardless of whether if it seems appropriate or not, that is the situation that Marriott faces in trying to make its acquisition pay off. You have to remember that Vistana owners didn't ask for any of this. They didn't ask to be spun off and acquired by another company and they didn't ask to be integrated into another timeshare system. While some owners like me see it as a positive and have jumped on the bandwagon by buying MVC points, I would guess for most Vistana owners the entire experience has seemed like a threat to their ownership and the system that they have enjoyed for years.


Do you think that Marriott owners had any choice in the development of the Destination Club? That Marriott owners weren't as worried about how it would impact their existing ownerships? That Marriott owners didn't - then and now - resent that it cost them to be included, costs that we're now hearing Vistana members may not be charged? Or that we were spun off from our hotel company shortly after the DC introduction?

Marriott's timeshare business has been forced like every other timeshare business to respond to the changing habits of their customers, and forced like every other floating system to develop something that would overcome the negative reality of sales of low-demand intervals stagnating. The Destination Club/Abound is basically an exchange company. When it was introduced it was obvious that it was designed purposely to be able to integrate non-Marriott timeshares, and none of us knows if eventually the parent company of Sheraton and Westin timeshares - whichever company that might have been at the time - would be invited and would choose to integrate with only the exchange company. Has there ever been this much angst when any timeshare company changed its affiliation from II to RCI or vice-versa?

The last thing I read in the TUG Vistana forum about Abound is that those owners just want a safe space to vent their frustrations and they don't care to know anything about the 12 years of experience that some of us have with the DC, that they're not interested in anything that might alleviate their frustrations/fears. And now you're here saying that Marriott owes them carrots? Like I said, that's crap. Why should Marriott be blamed for, and have to pay for, Starwood betraying its owners?


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## kozykritter (Jun 26, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> Do you think that Marriott owners had any choice in the development of the Destination Club? That Marriott owners weren't as worried about how it would impact their existing ownerships? That Marriott owners didn't - then and now - resent that it cost them to be included, costs that we're now hearing Vistana members may not be charged? Or that we were spun off from our hotel company shortly after the DC introduction?
> 
> Marriott's timeshare business has been forced like every other timeshare business to respond to the changing habits of their customers, and forced like every other floating system to develop something that would overcome the negative reality of sales of low-demand intervals stagnating. The Destination Club/Abound is basically an exchange company. When it was introduced it was obvious that it was designed purposely to be able to integrate non-Marriott timeshares, and none of us knows if eventually the parent company of Sheraton and Westin timeshares - whichever company that might have been at the time - would be invited and would choose to integrate with only the exchange company.
> 
> The last thing I read in the TUG Starwood forum about Abound is that those owners just want a safe space to vent their frustrations and they don't care to know anything about the 12 years of experience that some of us have with the DC, that they're not interested in anything that might alleviate their frustrations/fears. And now you're here saying that Marriott owes them carrots? Like I said, that's crap. Why should Marriott be blamed for Starwood betraying its owners?


I understand. We have different perspectives and that's what this forum allows. Owners on both sides are powerless to stop Marriott from doing whatever it decides it wants or needs to do. For me I've chosen to accept that and make the best choices I can to protect my timeshare investment and use it to its fullest.


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## Quilter (Jun 26, 2022)

At the moment I just want a decent, high speed website.


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## SGould (Jun 26, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> Do you think that Marriott owners had any choice in the development of the Destination Club? That Marriott owners weren't as worried about how it would impact their existing ownerships? That Marriott owners didn't - then and now - resent that it cost them to be included, costs that we're now hearing Vistana members may not be charged? Or that we were spun off from our hotel company shortly after the DC introduction?
> 
> Marriott's timeshare business has been forced like every other timeshare business to respond to the changing habits of their customers, and forced like every other floating system to develop something that would overcome the negative reality of sales of low-demand intervals stagnating. The Destination Club/Abound is basically an exchange company. When it was introduced it was obvious that it was designed purposely to be able to integrate non-Marriott timeshares, and none of us knows if eventually the parent company of Sheraton and Westin timeshares - whichever company that might have been at the time - would be invited and would choose to integrate with only the exchange company. Has there ever been this much angst when any timeshare company changed its affiliation from II to RCI or vice-versa?
> 
> The last thing I read in the TUG Vistana forum about Abound is that those owners just want a safe space to vent their frustrations and they don't care to know anything about the 12 years of experience that some of us have with the DC, that they're not interested in anything that might alleviate their frustrations/fears. And now you're here saying that Marriott owes them carrots? Like I said, that's crap. Why should Marriott be blamed for, and have to pay for, Starwood betraying its owners?


Maybe I am one of the only Vistana owners looking forward to having more options for travel
destinations.  I foresee myself depositing into Abound.  I understand the frustration of Marriott owners that paid a fee!  I would be upset too.  I am not sure why some owners feel entitled to anything.


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## MICROZE (Jun 26, 2022)

Quilter said:


> Can you tell us the resort/season that was presented with the hybrid option?


Marriot Grande Vista 2BR/EY-PLATINUM [2775-DCP/MF: $1470/Year or $0.53c/DCP]


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## jabberwocky (Jun 27, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> Do you think that Marriott owners had any choice in the development of the Destination Club? That Marriott owners weren't as worried about how it would impact their existing ownerships? That Marriott owners didn't - then and now - resent that it cost them to be included, costs that we're now hearing Vistana members may not be charged? Or that we were spun off from our hotel company shortly after the DC introduction?


In fairness, I don’t think you can really compare the 2010 DP rollout with the Vistana integration. As has already been pointed out, there was no point system for weeks owners in Marriott prior to the rollout. With Vistana they are effectively trying to merge two systems.

On the Vistana side, there is a robust VSN that has been in place for quite some time, and is well-liked. Other than owning mandatory weeks, there are only two ways to participate in the VSN system 1) buy your week from the developer, or 2) requalify your resale by making a minimum purchase from the developer. Forgive me if I’m mistaken, but Marriott does the same thing - if you buy from the developer you can participate or you can requalify your resale week through a developer purchase (you could also pay the junk fee if purchasing resale points).

So being a Vistana owner who has both developer and requalified resale weeks, why should I have to pay additional amounts if they are merging the systems? I’ve already shelled out a bunch of cash to the developer to participate in the point system, just like a post 2010 Marriott purchaser has.  I have no trouble excluding resale weeks that are not requalified, but hopefully you can see why some might object to paying additional fees.

I think part of the hesitation with MVC on the part of Vistana owners on this forum is that the Flex programs have gotten a bit of a bad reputation as being too costly and not having enough “good” (ie Westin Riverfront ski weeks) inventory.  I believe Flex was originally modeled off of the success of the DP program, so I think Vistana owners can be forgiven when they express fears about moving to a Flex type system. In many ways the same debates occurring now regarding availability, cherry-picking prime weeks etc are the same things we heard back when Flex was rolled out (most of which has proved to be misplaced fears).  I trust once we see how things actually work there will be much less doubt.


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## kozykritter (Jun 27, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> In fairness, I don’t think you can really compare the 2010 DP rollout with the Vistana integration. As has already been pointed out, there was no point system for weeks owners in Marriott prior to the rollout. With Vistana they are effectively trying to merge two systems.
> 
> On the Vistana side, there is a robust VSN that has been in place for quite some time, and is well-liked. Other than owning mandatory weeks, there are only two ways to participate in the VSN system 1) buy your week from the developer, or 2) requalify your resale by making a minimum purchase from the developer. Forgive me if I’m mistaken, but Marriott does the same thing - if you buy from the developer you can participate or you can requalify your resale week through a developer purchase (you could also pay the junk fee if purchasing resale points).
> 
> ...


+1


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## sharr7 (Jun 28, 2022)

There's a few snobs on both sides but I think many will come to appreciate the expanded portfolio of resort options.

There's also too much "I had to [do/pay this crappy thing/fee], so it's not fair that others in the future might not have to" in the world today. Let's be happy for the people (full disclosure: me) that may avoid getting nickel and dimed specifically with an enrollment fee. Being here on TUG we all have some things in common: 
-we've found value, perhaps even thousands per year, in owning, staying educated on the systems, and vacationing this way; and
-we all constantly are getting nickel and dimed by our corporate overlords MVW

I think the main difference between 2010 and now is that Marriott needs something from Vistana owners this time, and quickly - they need our weeks to populate their combined system with actual, achievable trades into the full portfolio they've been touting. Like others have noted, Vistana has a fully operational, generally liked, internal exchange program. In 2010 there was no such system and maybe they owned more inventory at the outset of the program or were expanding the network - or maybe they knew a new internal exchange built from scratch would be desirable enough for the small-ish EF they charged. Whatever the exact reason you can be sure it was a business decision and they're confident they'll make more money without an EF this time, so we'll eat that cost some other way.


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## Superchief (Jun 28, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> Well, from this side of the house, let me just say that, "given the general sentiment of Vistana owners towards Marriott," enforced by what I'm reading on TUG from Vistana owners, I couldn't care less if Vistana is integrated into the DC/Abound. IMO it's absolutely ridiculous, and the height of entitlement, for Vistana owners to think that Marriott owes them any more from Abound than any Marriott owners have ever gotten from the DC. It's not Marriott that's fostering the "general sentiment" yet it's apparently expected that Marriott must give over and above what they've given Marriott owners to combat it? That's crap.


I agree with you. There are only a few Vistana resorts that I would ever be interested in staying, but I bet there are several MVC resorts of interest to current Vistana owners. All this merger will do for me is make it more difficult to get the MVC reservations I want due to a new group of people having access to them.


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## MICROZE (Jun 28, 2022)

Being a Marriott + Vistana owner, I have a Jekyll & Hyde perspective.

*Vistana-Owner*
At many presentations [including from insiders] the following is what i heard will transpire shortly.

I can continue to use my VSN membership as-is [NO CHANGES], if I so choose.
I can choose to partake in the DC-Program, if I so choose.
I may have to pay an Enrollment-Fee [could be $1k-$2K or $0K] to participate [Enrolled-Contracts] in the DC-Program.
I may have to purchase DC-Points [could be $30K] to have my "Resale" [NON-Enrolled-Contracts] ownerships participate in the DC-Program.
  What I Interpret as a Vistana-Owner

My life is unchanged if I choose to NOT participate in the DC-Program.
Each year I can decide to participate in the DCP-System or NOT participate and exchange within VSN [or II] as I have done in the past.
In a particular year, If I elect the DCP-System, I will receive an allotment of DCP-Points for my specific Week/Flex that I can use to exchange into another [Marriott/Vistana] resort.
If I dislike the DCP-Points allotment, I can choose to NOT participate in the DCP-System and exchange via VSN or via II.

If I choose to participate in the DC-Program, I get direct access to 80+ resorts that I could not avail of before; other than hope to get lucky via INTERVAL.
If I choose to participate, my 4*/5* gets me Bonvoy-Titanium benefits.
If I choose to participate my 5* gets me Chairmans-Club level DCP-Benefits.
If I choose to participate, I get improved II-Benefits [Exchange-Priority, Lower VSN->M Exchange-Fees].
If I choose to participate, I get consolidated fees [possibly savings] over a-la-carte VSN fees.
Do I think these additional benefits should be free [No-Enrollment/No-Purchase]? Yes. Because I am "entitled"?
If I dislike this, or don't see these as "benefits" I can choose to NOT Opt-In and continue to vacation as I have done for years past.
If I disagree, do I blame Marriott? How about me blaming Vistana for selling out?

*Marriott-Owner*

If I have enrolled Weeks/DCP-Points, I can avail of access to VSN-Resorts via the DCP-System starting in Summer-2022 for travel beginning in Jan-2023.
If VSN-Owners choose to participate [deposit their Contracts] with DCP, I could get access to their resorts. More options for me.
If VSN-Owners choose to participate, they can get access to my resorts. More competition for me.


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## kozykritter (Jun 28, 2022)

Thanks for that great detailed summary! From what I read along the way I believe they are going to be applying MVC recognition levels and the consolidated club fee across all Vistana owners regardless of their electing to participate in Abound. Vistana elite levels have already been mapped to Executive and above as you mentioned. That means they will likely come up with Vistana-only criteria to qualify for the Select level within the Vistana system since it doesn't have an equivalent level right now and perhaps some specific Vistana benefits that was distinguish it from Owner level.

If a Vistana owner elects points through Abound, they would have their same recognition level of benefits within the MVC system related to the use of those points. Different from MVC, Vistana elite levels don't have any priority booking features that allow them to jump the line ahead of any owner so there's no Vistana booking advantage to pass on to MVC owners in that regard unless they add some in this integration process which I think would cause the Vistana villagers to grab torches and pitchforks and come after the executives!

Also I've been told once the integration launches, a Vistana or enrolled MVC or dual owner will only pay one consolidated club fee annually starting in 2023 and the amount will be the same in both programs. That's good news for dual owners that currently pay club dues in both programs if they have the appropriate ownership. So one scenario is a Vistana owner pays the consolidated club dues for VSN and then subsequently enrolls in elects their ownership into Abound without being charged another club fee since the administration of the two programs is being merged. The same is true for MVC owners booking Vistana via Abound. We've had mention of this here starting with Denise's contact back at the soft launch plus I've heard it in sales presentations and others have heard this is how Abound will work.

I guess we'll find out in the near future how much of this is true but logically it all sounds right


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## Wally3433 (Jun 28, 2022)

What is the affect of this change on a Marriott Weeks Owner that just trades on Interval?


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## kozykritter (Jun 28, 2022)

Wally3433 said:


> What is the affect of this change on a Marriott Weeks Owner that just trades on Interval?


I would say none.


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## Aviator621 (Jun 29, 2022)

Wally3433 said:


> What is the affect of this change on a Marriott Weeks Owner that just trades on Interval?





kozykritter said:


> I would say none.



I have heard that the Sheraton/Westin resorts are now added to the Marriott to Marriott priority window in Interval which should help a bit.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 29, 2022)

Aviator621 said:


> I have heard that the Sheraton/Westin resorts are now added to the Marriott to Marriott priority window in Interval which should help a bit.


What we know about this is that there is an additional preference period where Marriott owners have preference to exchange into Vistana and Vistana owners have a preference exchanging into Marriott. This happens though after the Marriott to Marriott or Vistana to Vistana priority period had already happened. Not the difference with "priority" and "preference". I don't necessarily see this going away in order to protect the original promised ownership privileges to Marriott and Vistana owners that aren't enrolled in Abound. I think there will always be a Marriott to Marriott priority and a Vistana to Vistana priority followed by a short preference period and then deposits open up to everyone else.


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## MICROZE (Jun 29, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> What we know about this is that there is an additional preference period where Marriott owners have preference to exchange into Vistana and Vistana owners have a preference exchanging into Marriott. This happens though after the Marriott to Marriott or Vistana to Vistana priority period had already happened. Not the difference with "priority" and "preference". I don't necessarily see this going away in order to protect the original promised ownership privileges to Marriott and Vistana owners that aren't enrolled in Abound. I think there will always be a *Marriott to Marriott priority and a Vistana to Vistana priority followed by a short preference period and then deposits open up to everyone else*.


Searching with Marriott & Vistana, *this* is what I see right now and assume it will continue in the future.


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## Dean (Jul 1, 2022)

I hear the program has been pushed back to the end of July.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 1, 2022)

Dean said:


> I hear the program has been pushed back to the end of July.


Given the website woes on both sides (Vistana and MVC), I can't say I am surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if it happens even later.


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## Fasttr (Jul 1, 2022)

Dean said:


> I hear the program has been pushed back to the end of July.


Which July?


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## GaryDouglas (Jul 3, 2022)

A couple weeks ago I was told by a sales rep that to be announced in July, it would no longer be possible to bring a post 2010June20 non-Marriott purchased week in as enrolled.  Besides being surprised, I didn't beleave it.  Anyone else hear this sales rumor yet?


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## bazzap (Jul 3, 2022)

GaryDouglas said:


> A couple weeks ago I was told by a sales rep that to be announced in July, it would no longer be possible to bring a post May2010 non-Marriott purchased week in as enrolled.  Besides being surprised, I didn't beleave it.  Anyone else hear this sales rumor yet?


As this would just remove MVC’s option to sell “enrolment packages” and make more money from owners, it would be the most bizarre business decision for them to make?


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## ljmiii (Jul 3, 2022)

GaryDouglas said:


> A couple weeks ago I was told by a sales rep that to be announced in July, it would no longer be possible to bring a post May2010 non-Marriott purchased week in as enrolled.  Besides being surprised, I didn't beleave it.  Anyone else hear this sales rumor yet?


Lots of times. Which July did you have in mind?!?


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## VacationForever (Jul 3, 2022)

GaryDouglas said:


> A couple weeks ago I was told by a sales rep that to be announced in July, it would no longer be possible to bring a post May2010 non-Marriott purchased week in as enrolled.  Besides being surprised, I didn't beleave it.  Anyone else hear this sales rumor yet?



It is true and consistent that a Marriott week bought after June 20, 2010 from external sources cannot be enrolled without buying something directly from Marriott to enroll that week.  You can also buy a hybrid bundle from Marriott, which comes with  a week and points/outside of US week and the bundle is enrolled.


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## Bill4728 (Jul 3, 2022)

GaryDouglas said:


> A couple weeks ago I was told by a sales rep that to be announced in July, it would no longer be possible to bring a post May2010 non-Marriott purchased week in as enrolled.  Besides being surprised, I didn't believe it.  Anyone else hear this sales rumor yet?


There are multiple times in the past where MVC has a short window of "amnesty" Every time they do this, they tell owners "this will be the last amnesty period ever".  Clearly not true. 

 This spring, they allowed post 2010 weeks to be enrolled if you bought 2500 MVC points.


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## Bill4728 (Jul 3, 2022)

Wally3433 said:


> What is the affect of this change on a Marriott Weeks Owner that just trades on Interval?


MVC is going to take out of interval all enrolled weeks deposited into Interval and put them into the pool of weeks that you can reserve using DC points. 

BUT  owners of non enrolled weeks, using their private Interval accounts, should be able to deposit and trade their weeks in II. There just may not be as many MVC weeks available since MVC will not be putting as many weeks into Interval.


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## bazzap (Jul 3, 2022)

Bill4728 said:


> MVC is going to take out of interval all enrolled weeks deposited into Interval and put them into the pool of weeks that you can reserve using DC points.
> 
> BUT  owners of non enrolled weeks, using their private Interval accounts, should be able to deposit and trade their weeks in II. There just may not be as many MVC weeks available since MVC will not be putting as many weeks into Interval.


Unless I am misunderstanding you:
- owners with enrolled weeks choose to elect them for points each year (or not)
- if owners choose not to elect them, how can MVC stop them using their corporate Interval accounts to deposit and trade their weeks in II


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## Bill4728 (Jul 3, 2022)

bazzap said:


> Unless I am misunderstanding you:
> - owners with enrolled weeks choose to elect them for points each year (or not)
> - if owners choose not to elect them, how can MVC stop them using their corporate Interval accounts to deposit and trade their weeks in II


MVC must allow them to deposit them into II   BUT DC owners will not see any MVC resorts with their II deposit even though there are MVC weeks in Interval (which can be seen with non MVC corporate interval accounts).   These deposits will only see non MVC weeks.

This may be similar to the area blocks that Interval does:  ie  not allowing you to trade your Orlando MVC weeks for Disney Orlando weeks


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## bazzap (Jul 3, 2022)

Bill4728 said:


> MVC must allow them to deposit them into II   BUT DC owners will not see any MVC resorts with their II deposit even though there are MVC weeks in Interval (which can be seen with non MVC corporate interval accounts).   These deposits will only see non MVC weeks.
> 
> This may be similar to the area blocks that Interval does:  ie  not allowing you to trade your Orlando MVC weeks for Disney Orlando weeks


OK, I do understand that DC Points deposits into Interval can only be used to book non MVC resorts.


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## GaryDouglas (Jul 3, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> It is true and consistent that a Marriott week bought after June 20, 2010 from external sources cannot be enrolled without buying something directly from Marriott to enroll that week.  You can also buy a hybrid bundle from Marriott, which comes with a week and points/outside of US week and the bundle is enrolled.



He said that this upgrade option will no longer be available after the new rules come out.


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## VacationForever (Jul 3, 2022)

Bill4728 said:


> MVC must allow them to deposit them into II   BUT DC owners will not see any MVC resorts with their II deposit even though there are MVC weeks in Interval (which can be seen with non MVC corporate interval accounts).   These deposits will only see non MVC weeks.
> 
> This may be similar to the area blocks that Interval does:  ie  not allowing you to trade your Orlando MVC weeks for Disney Orlando weeks


You had said this before in another thread and many of us have disputed it.  DC owners can deposit their MVC weeks into the corporate II account and exchange back into Marriott properties. DC points cannot be exchanged into Marriott properties in II.  I use my enrolled weeks to exchange back to MVC properties in II all day long...


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## VacationForever (Jul 3, 2022)

GaryDouglas said:


> He said that this upgrade option will no longer be available after the new rules come out.


Salesperson lips were moving...


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## Mowogo (Jul 3, 2022)

SGould said:


> Maybe I am one of the only Vistana owners looking forward to having more options for travel
> destinations.  I foresee myself depositing into Abound.  I understand the frustration of Marriott owners that paid a fee!  I would be upset too.  I am not sure why some owners feel entitled to anything.





jabberwocky said:


> I think part of the hesitation with MVC on the part of Vistana owners on this forum is that the Flex programs have gotten a bit of a bad reputation as being too costly and not having enough “good” (ie Westin Riverfront ski weeks) inventory.  I believe Flex was originally modeled off of the success of the DP program, so I think Vistana owners can be forgiven when they express fears about moving to a Flex type system. In many ways the same debates occurring now regarding availability, cherry-picking prime weeks etc are the same things we heard back when Flex was rolled out (most of which has proved to be misplaced fears).  I trust once we see how things actually work there will be much less doubt.


Also, Marriott has been offering Destination Club only for a while and over the years picking up inventory through various methods to improve availability in addition to the development of quite a few Points only properties.  Vistana was pretty much blocked from new development not too long after launching Flex and so has a much smaller pool of desirable developments and units Which really blocked the Flex products from becoming truly attractive systems To those that understood how the system worked.


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## GaryDouglas (Jul 3, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> Salesperson lips were moving...



It was perhaps at a moment of desperation because I was cancelling a purchase...


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## ljmiii (Jul 3, 2022)

GaryDouglas said:


> It was perhaps at a moment of desperation because I was cancelling a purchase...


Ding, ding, ding...we have a winner!


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## ljmiii (Jul 3, 2022)

Bill4728 said:


> MVC must allow them to deposit them into II   BUT DC owners will not see any MVC resorts with their II deposit even though there are MVC weeks in Interval (which can be seen with non MVC corporate interval accounts).   These deposits will only see non MVC weeks.


This seems extraordinarily unlikely. But if for some unforeseen reason MVW ever decides to shoot itself in the foot, MVC owners will happily troop off to another place (e.g. SFX) that allows MVC weeks to be exchanged.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 5, 2022)

Bill4728 said:


> MVC must allow them to deposit them into II   BUT DC owners will not see any MVC resorts with their II deposit even though there are MVC weeks in Interval (which can be seen with non MVC corporate interval accounts).   These deposits will only see non MVC weeks.
> 
> This may be similar to the area blocks that Interval does:  ie  not allowing you to trade your Orlando MVC weeks for Disney Orlando weeks





ljmiii said:


> This seems extraordinarily unlikely. But if for some unforeseen reason MVW ever decides to shoot itself in the foot, MVC owners will happily troop off to another place (e.g. SFX) that allows MVC weeks to be exchanged.


RIght now with Marriott weeks, if a weeks owner deposits a week into their corporate II account, it can be used to exchange into other Marriott resorts. I don't see this changing with a combined program. If a Vistana owner deposits their enrolled week into II, they will still be able to exchange into Marriott and Vistana resorts. However, if they elect Abound Club Points, they won't be able to use those points for exchanges into Vistana or Marriott weeks through II.


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## AsiaExpat (Oct 11, 2022)

You're right!



GetawaysRus said:


> I'm not so sure that the Vistana sales reps are correct about that. I thought that the Marriott Bonvoy Choice Benefits were earned based on elite night credits. Bonvoy members  get one Choice Benefit at 50 nights and a second Choice Benefit at 75 nights.
> 
> So because you earn your Bonvoy status based on hotel stays related to your business travel, you would be eligible. But I'm not so sure that you wife will get the same benefit because her Titanium status is based on her timeshare ownership rather than elite night stays. She might have to earn her own 50 or 75 Bonvoy elite night credits (from some combination of Bonvoy credit cards, timeshare stays at Marriott or Vistana resorts, and hotel stays) in order to earn the Choice Benefits.
> 
> If I'm wrong about this, I'm sure someone will quickly correct me.


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