# Clever but sleazy E-Bay seller trick?



## nodge (Aug 25, 2010)

Hi Gang,

A couple of days ago, I low-balled a timeshare purchase on E-Bay by entering the highest amount I was willing to pay a few seconds before the auction ended.  The current high bid for the timeshare was significantly below my max amount entered when I entered it.

I lost the auction to someone who also bid in the last few seconds but was willing to pay more than my max bid amount.  No biggie.

Today I got a “second chance” offer from the seller willing to sell me the timeshare for my original max bid amount, which was a fair amount higher than the third highest bidder in the auction.  The ID’s of all the bidders wasn’t posted.

Soooo . . . . . I was thinking . . . . . what’s stopping an E-Bay seller from using a dummy E-Bay account to enter a super high bid in the last few seconds of an auction in order to max out everyone’s highest amount, and then offering a “second chance” to the second place finisher at that bidder's highest amount entered?  This would allow the seller to get the highest amount possible, even if there weren’t a legitimate competing bidder there to drive up the price.

Would you go through with such a deal assuming the seller has stellar ratings (which he/she does) and it is still within the range you were willing to pay if it had legitimately gotten that high during the actual auction?

-nodge


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## glypnirsgirl (Aug 25, 2010)

nodge said:


> Hi Gang,
> 
> A couple of days ago, I low-balled a timeshare purchase on E-Bay by entering my highest amount I am willing to pay a few seconds before the auction ended.
> 
> ...



NOT ONE THING!!! and I believe that it has happened to me. Especially telling if the last minute bidder has a 0 - 5 sales history - and I realize some are completely private so that you cannot tell who they are at all and what their sales rating is.

elaine


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## Robert D (Aug 26, 2010)

nodge said:


> Hi Gang,
> 
> A couple of days ago, I low-balled a timeshare purchase on E-Bay by entering my highest amount I am willing to pay a few seconds before the auction ended.  The current high bid for the timeshare was significantly below my max amount entered when I entered it.
> 
> ...



How many bids has the high bidder retracted or failed to close and how many feedbacks does he have? If I thought it was a shill, I'd offer the seller a little more than the 3rd highest bid since this is how much you would have paid for it if the shill wasn't involved.  I'd also report this activity to Ebay and have them try to determine if it was a shill bid.


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## levatino (Aug 26, 2010)

If the purchase price is within your bid, does it really matter.  I am sure there is a lot of sellers bidding to raise purchase prices.  What you are willing to pay is ultimately up to you.


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## SDKath (Aug 26, 2010)

This goes for all of ebay, not just timeshare options.  Shill bidding is illegal and if they catch you, you lose your sellers account.  I think it's a huge risk for a seller to do this.

Katherine


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## nodge (Aug 26, 2010)

Robert D said:


> How many bids has the high bidder retracted or failed to close and how many feedbacks does he have?



The seller made the auction totally private.  It doesn't even show the number of the high bidder's feedbacks or when that bidder opened his/her E-Bay account.



Robert D said:


> If I thought it was a shill, I'd offer the seller a little more than the 3rd highest bid since this is how much you would have paid for it if the shill wasn't involved.



Seems fair and reasonable . . . and a good way to test the seller's character.  I'll give it a whirl.



Robert D said:


> I'd also report this activity to Ebay and have them try to determine if it was a shill bid.



I'll do that should the seller fail the above character test.  

Thanks!
-nodge


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## jarta (Aug 26, 2010)

As I have said before automatic shill bidding is a big problem on eBay.  I have complained to eBay and eBay has responded with a canned message that it has opened a file but, unfortunately, would be unable to tell me the results - and nothing ever happened.  The guy I complained about is still doing it on luxury watches.

eBay has regulations about shill bidding but, IMO, does not enforce them.   

I posted on March 1, 2010:

"amundsun, ... This is an old eBay trick that is called "shill bidding." It is supposed to be against eBay policy. But, eBay does absolutely nothing to police "shill bidding."

The most egregious abuse is when a seller sets up a very high bid to be made at the last second on a luxury item. It is made automatically. Whatever you bid, the bidding machine bids more.

Another element is that "to protect the bidders' privacy" (lol!), the bidders full aliases are not visible.

You can see the automatic bids and when they were made by clicking to see additional bidding information.

Then, sometimes you are sent a "second offer" at the last shill bid price. But, most of the time, the "buyer" refused to complete the deal and the property is merely relisted.

It's just another way of setting a reserve and talking to the bidders about how much they will go up to. But, the reserve is not disclosed. It's the biggest scam on eBay and one that someday a State Attorney General will bust wide open to eBay's embarrassment and dismay. ... eom"

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=874141&highlight=Automatic+shill+bidding#post874141   ...   eom


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## pkyorkbeach (Aug 26, 2010)

I believe you are all on to something here. One auction that I bid on the other bidder had zero feedback as opposed to my three hundred....


This sounds like an investigation by EBAY is needed


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## Ridewithme38 (Aug 26, 2010)

I've always thought this was just part of the auction atomosphere? I've been the Shill bidder and had friends do it for me...I've seen this happen in the brick and morter real estate market too, You tell a potential buyer...that there are Other Offers on the table so he may want to get in quick or up his bid
I've helped friends sell things on the street, "Wow, your going to sell it for that low of a price? Man if i had the money i'd give you (that price + $2), hold on let me see if i can get the money"

Its just a way to negotiate...something along the lines of "This guy over there offered me $XX, but FOR YOU, i'll sell it for $XY"

It give a market to a product that might not have one, makes it seem more desirable....How would Ebay police this?


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 26, 2010)

decide on the price you are willing to pay for the item - and snipe it.
why worry about a situation that you cannot alter - especially in a massive internet-based auction system like eBay? eBay is likely not going to do about it - and even if they tried - shill bidders will find a way around it.
if you get a 2nd chance offer - then decide if you are still willing to buy it - or offer even a lower price...


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## jarta (Aug 26, 2010)

Ride,   ...   Shill bidding is one reason why all these "completed" auctions on eBay may not be actual sales and why the thread about Starwood sales on eBay is woefully inaccurate.

As for eBay, here's some text and a link to the policy:

"Reporting shill bidding

Learn more about reporting listing violations. If you think you see shill bidding taking place on a listing, report it to us. Be sure to provide the member's user ID and the item number. We thoroughly investigate every report we receive. Often what appears to be shill bidding isn't a violation. If there is evidence of shill bidding, we will take action, which may include listing cancellation or referral to law enforcement. However, our privacy policy prevents us from disclosing the details of our investigation to other members, including the person who reported the issue."

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html

My experience is that if you report shill bidding to eBay, nothing ever happens.   

Here's a link to the store of a guy who regularly gets 20-30 bids in every auction.  Other eBay watch sellers selling similar (and even the same) watches get no bids for weeks at a time.  In most cases with this seller, the bidding process ends on these "no reserve" auctions with a bid in excess being placed in the last second (or two) and the item, time and time again, being relisted in another "no reserve" auction.

http://shop.ebay.com/theprestigeboutique/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686

Not saying his watches are phonies.  They aren't.  They are great and authentic.  I own one.  I finally gave up and bought it for what he wanted to sell it at.  It's just that, IMO, he uses automatic shill bidding to drive up the price, falsely simulate interest and other bidders and is being used to set a reserve bid at the end of the "no reserve" auctions.

Sorry you see nothing wrong in it.   ...   eom


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 26, 2010)

I wouldn't think the seller would risk his ebay account.  Don't really understand what Ridewithme is saying...
 
Anyway, I used to be suspicious of ebay sellers, but ever since we had that 2 bedroom Kauai oceanfront unit at the Wyndham in Lihue show up over and over again as a new listing, and finally sold to a TUGger for $1.00, I realize there aren't a lot of takers of timeshares on ebay currently.  I was sure that week would get bid up to $1K or more, with everyone talking about the view and the bargain it would be, etc.  But apparently that didn't help the bid at all.  

I think the second-chance offer is just a sign of the times.  Someone backed out, and the seller wanted to find an owner without listing again.


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## jarta (Aug 26, 2010)

"I think the second-chance offer is just a sign of the times. Someone backed out, and *the seller wanted to find an owner without listing again*."

Even where the seller creates a phony "back out" by submitting an automatic shill bid at the end of the auction?

Or, without paying eBay for another listing.

Or, to take the transaction out of eBay where there are certain protections for buyers.

A sign of the times?  ROFL!   ...   eom


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## pianodinosaur (Aug 26, 2010)

nodge said:


> Hi Gang,
> 
> A couple of days ago, I low-balled a timeshare purchase on E-Bay by entering the highest amount I was willing to pay a few seconds before the auction ended.  The current high bid for the timeshare was significantly below my max amount entered when I entered it.
> 
> ...



It all depends upon how badly you want the property.  The seller is offering it to you for the price that you bid.  I am skeptical of any second chance offers for the reasons you gave.  I would wait for a similar property to be auctioned again and try to get it for a lower price. 

I have enjoyed reading your posts and have found you to be a very reliable source of information.   Keep up the good work and continue to educate us all.


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## davhu1 (Aug 26, 2010)

Depends on how badly you want the timeshare and what the winning bid price is ($1,000s vs $1s).  It does not cost the seller anything to re-list if he can show ebay the winning bidder backed out or refuse to close the deal.


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## Ken555 (Aug 26, 2010)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I've always thought this was just part of the auction atomosphere? I've been the Shill bidder and had friends do it for me...I've seen this happen in the brick and morter real estate market too, You tell a potential buyer...that there are Other Offers on the table so he may want to get in quick or up his bid
> I've helped friends sell things on the street, "Wow, your going to sell it for that low of a price? Man if i had the money i'd give you (that price + $2), hold on let me see if i can get the money"
> 
> Its just a way to negotiate...something along the lines of "This guy over there offered me $XX, but FOR YOU, i'll sell it for $XY"
> ...




Do you believe this is ethical?


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## Ridewithme38 (Aug 26, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> Do you believe this is ethical?



I don't know whats Unethical about it...a shill bidder can only raise the bid so high without not being able to sell the item..Its setting a Reserve without stating that there is one...When i see the "Reserve Not Met" sign, i don't bid...

It's nothing more then setting a value for an item without going through the Ebay Reserve Process...I don't see anything UNethical about it...Unless you consider an Ebay Reserve Value unethical?


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## YYJMSP (Aug 26, 2010)

jarta said:


> Or, without paying eBay for another listing.



You can usually relist an unsold item (within some short period of time), and if it sells the second time around, eBay doesn't charge you for the fee for the second listing...

Final value fees apply only to the listing that resulted in a sale.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 26, 2010)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I don't know whats Unethical about it...a shill bidder can only raise the bid so high without not being able to sell the item..Its setting a Reserve without stating that there is one...When i see the "Reserve Not Met" sign, i don't bid...
> 
> It's nothing more then setting a value for an item without going through the Ebay Reserve Process...I don't see anything UNethical about it...Unless you consider an Ebay Reserve Value unethical?



Sort of like comparing apples and oranges... except they are both fruits.
Better to compare apples and poverty - except they both keep the doctor away...  

I guess 'ethical' is in the eyes of the beholder - but there is a difference between shill bidding and setting a reserve based on the psychology of bidding.  The reason setting a reserve in an eBay auction (esp TSs) is a bad idea is because it keeps bidders away - and that is counter-productive to the intent of bidding auctions - and that is to create a bidding war to drive the price up (and why I set my price - and snipe).  Shill bidding - which is not allowed according to eBay policies - is not like setting a reserve.  The intent of a shill intent is to drive bids up - setting a reserve does not do this.  Setting a reserve is telling the bidder that a certain minimum will be accepted in an honest and upfront way.  Shill bidding is the opposite of setting a reserve - and in fact does not have the same end result.  'Opposite' by definition is not the 'same'.

I referred to TS auctions above - because TS auctions are non-binding for both sellers and buyers, therefore setting a reserve is a bad idea.


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## nodge (Aug 26, 2010)

nodge said:


> Seems fair and reasonable . . . and a good way to test the seller's character.  I'll give it a whirl.



I heard back from the seller . . . .

He said . . . and I'm not making this up . . . that he actually had 3 identical timeshares to sell and the original high bidder ended up buying two of them and he would sell the third one to me at my max bid price but nothing lower than that and certainly no where near as low as the third highest bidder's max bid.

I passed.  

The thrill of an impulse eBay timeshare purchase may have finally met its match.

-nodge

So, I guess when it gets "relisted," it will be that third one he'll be selling, and not the first two.


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## Ken555 (Aug 26, 2010)

Re shill bidding... 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill_bidding



> Shilling is illegal in many circumstances and in many jurisdictions[1]  because of the frequently fraudulent and damaging character of their  actions. However, if a shill does not place uninformed parties at a risk  of loss, but merely generates "buzz", the shill's actions may be legal.  For example, a person planted in an audience to laugh and applaud when  desired (see claque), or to participate in on-stage activities as a "random member of the audience", is a type of legal shill.





> Shills, or "potted plants", are sometimes employed in auctions. Driving prices up with phony bids, they seek to provoke a bidding  war among other participants. Often they are told by the seller  precisely how high to bid, as the seller actually pays the price (to  himself, of course) if the item does not sell, losing only the auction  fees. Shilling has a substantially higher rate of occurrence in online auctions, where any user with multiple accounts (and IP addresses) can shill without aid of participants. Many online auction sites employ sophisticated (and usually secret) methods to detect collusion.  The online auction site eBay forbids shilling; its rules do not allow  friends or employees of a person selling an item to bid on the item.


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## cotraveller (Aug 26, 2010)

nodge said:


> I heard back from the seller . . . .
> 
> He said . . . and I'm not making this up . . . that he actually had 3 identical timeshares to sell and the original high bidder ended up buying two of them and he would sell the third one to me at my max bid price but nothing lower than that and certainly no where near as low as the third highest bidder's max bid.
> 
> -nodge



Maybe I'm overly skeptical but I'd put that story in the same category as the one where the lady in the Walmart parking lot said she was trying to get to her Uncle's house and wanted me to give her a dollar for gas.  

IMO you did good to pass.


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## PamMo (Aug 26, 2010)

DavidnRobin said:


> ...I guess 'ethical' is in the eyes of the beholder...




  I guess it all depends on what the definition of "is" is, then? Yikes! What a cynical lot we Tuggers are.

Nodge, good on you! The seller's tactics seem very shaky - and I'd be skeptical, too - and more than a little ticked off. If an eBay seller wants to put a bottom floor on his price - THAT'S WHAT A RESERVE IS FOR!!! People think they're being clever, but shill bidding IS unethical. I've read many of your posts - you're very saavy and are sure to find another great deal. Sorry you lost out on this auction - I hope you'll be able to buy the same timeshare at an even lower price.


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## NEGreyhound (Aug 26, 2010)

*Weed them out 1 at a time   but how?*

I have received a second chance bid from an ebay seller and when I called he was the most rube ignorant person I've met in a long time. When I asked him why he did the things he did on ebay he said it was none of my business and who was I to question him as he'd been around ebay much longer than I. His memorable vacations and probably another one run by him blocked me from bidding on future auctions.:ignore: 
Fine. His loss. I've taken my purchases to others on ebay and have been very happy with the way I've been treated. I also complained to ebay and I received the "mean nothing", "canned" automatic reply.


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## sjuhawk_jd (Aug 26, 2010)

levatino said:


> If the purchase price is within your bid, does it really matter.  I am sure there is a lot of sellers bidding to raise purchase prices.  What you are willing to pay is ultimately up to you.



Yes, it does matter. Shill bidding is like "being lied to" and nobody likes that whether the final price is within your bid or not.


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## DanCali (Aug 26, 2010)

nodge said:


> Would you go through with such a deal assuming the seller has stellar ratings (which he/she does) and it is still within the range you were willing to pay if it had legitimately gotten that high during the actual auction?
> 
> -nodge



I would remind the seller that eBay is a "second price auction," meaning you pay as high as the second highest bidder (plus a small increment). As you mentioned:



> The current high bid for the timeshare was significantly below my max amount entered when I entered it.



Whether the bidder who outbid you was the seller or not is not even relevant. It was not a legitimate bidder and therefore you ended up being the high bidder. That's all fine, as long as you pay the second highest price (plus a small increment) as is expected in eBay auctions...


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## Robert D (Aug 26, 2010)

NEGreyhound said:


> I have received a second chance bid from an ebay seller and when I called he was the most rube ignorant person I've met in a long time. When I asked him why he did the things he did on ebay he said it was none of my business and who was I to question him as he'd been around ebay much longer than I. His memorable vacations and probably another one run by him blocked me from bidding on future auctions.:ignore:
> Fine. His loss. I've taken my purchases to others on ebay and have been very happy with the way I've been treated. I also complained to ebay and I received the "mean nothing", "canned" automatic reply.



I'd be interested in knowing the name of this Ebay seller so I can avoid him.  Other Tuggers might also want to avoid him.


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## Robert D (Aug 26, 2010)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I've always thought this was just part of the auction atomosphere? I've been the Shill bidder and had friends do it for me...I've seen this happen in the brick and morter real estate market too, You tell a potential buyer...that there are Other Offers on the table so he may want to get in quick or up his bid
> I've helped friends sell things on the street, "Wow, your going to sell it for that low of a price? Man if i had the money i'd give you (that price + $2), hold on let me see if i can get the money"
> 
> Its just a way to negotiate...something along the lines of "This guy over there offered me $XX, but FOR YOU, i'll sell it for $XY"
> ...



Not only is shill bidding unethical, it's illegal in most states and I think it's also against Federal law.  I've been to several live real estate auctions and asked the auctioneers about shill bidding and all have told me it's illegal and they could lose their auction license if they condoned it.


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## NEGreyhound (Aug 27, 2010)

*Arrogant sellers*

It seemed that when this seller http://cgi.ebay.com/HAWAII-BEACH-PAHIO-WYNDHAM-TIMESHARE-KAUAI-RCI-OCEAN-/270625640889?pt=Timeshares
got caught selling 3 timeshares but only listing one and then posting a second and third chance option and not being willing to sell the others for the 3rd place bidders price he blocked me from future bidding! This also, for no known reason has caused this seller http://cgi.ebay.com/2BR-LOCKOFF-WESTIN-KAANAPALI-HAWAII-MAUI-TIMESHARE-/310243953578?pt=Timeshares to block my bidding. Coincidence? I don't know but there are some very irregular things happening on ebay.


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## nodge (Aug 27, 2010)

*The plot thickens . . . .*



NEGreyhound said:


> . . . This also, for no known reason has caused this seller http://cgi.ebay.com/2BR-LOCKOFF-WESTIN-KAANAPALI-HAWAII-MAUI-TIMESHARE-/310243953578?pt=Timeshares to block my bidding. Coincidence? I don't know but there are some very irregular things happening on ebay.



Small World!   The above seller was the seller in my case too . . ..

Now I'm really glad I passed on his "second chance" deal.

-nodge


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## Bwolf (Aug 27, 2010)

Robert D said:


> Not only is shill bidding unethical, it's illegal in most states and I think it's also against Federal law.  I've been to several live real estate auctions and asked the auctioneers about shill bidding and all have told me it's illegal and they could lose their auction license if they condoned it.



Many years ago, when we lived in upstate New York, we went to live auctions. For the most part, they were run fairly.  At one auction, though, there was a very long wait, 2 to 3 minutes after our last bid, and everyone thought we'd won the item.  Then a bid came from the very back of the audience.  Soon, we were bid up over twice the amount that should have won the item.  So, I stopped bidding.  There was another long wait, pretty close to five minutes.  The guy in the back who was bidding was looking at me.  A couple of guys to my left and another to my right were looking at me.  They all looked, amazingly, like employees of the auctioneer.  The auctioneer was drilling a hole through me with his look.  I shook my head no.  The bidder in the back won.

There was a buzz throughout the crowd sitting on the lawn of the farmhouse. Everyone knew what had happened.

At this point, my concern became getting my pregnant wife and myself out of there without any harm coming to either of us.  During a break, we followed close behind a group of people who were also leaving.  We walked right by the trailer office the auctioneer had set-up on the grounds.  We heard a woman complain that her dining room set hadn't sold and "he" had promised her it would and at a good  price.  He said he'd almost sold it at a good price and he would get her a good price at another auction.

I'm sure the dining room set is the same one we were bidding on.

I also think people have become more dishonest in the years since then.

Shill bidding may be against the rules on Ebay, but ask yourself, how does 
Ebay make money and doesn't it make more money if bids are higher?  Also, the more sellers on Ebay the more money Ebay makes.  Does Ebay want to run off any sellers?


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 27, 2010)

PamMo said:


> I guess it all depends on what the definition of "is" is, then? Yikes! What a cynical lot we Tuggers are.
> 
> Nodge, good on you! The seller's tactics seem very shaky - and I'd be skeptical, too - and more than a little ticked off. If an eBay seller wants to put a bottom floor on his price - THAT'S WHAT A RESERVE IS FOR!!! People think they're being clever, but shill bidding IS unethical. I've read many of your posts - you're very saavy and are sure to find another great deal. Sorry you lost out on this auction - I hope you'll be able to buy the same timeshare at an even lower price.



Pam - I was being sarcastic... hopefully that was obvious from my response.  Of course - shill bidding is unethical - and I believe only one Tugger responded that it was not (and foolish enough to defend it...)


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## ondeadlin (Aug 27, 2010)

I really don't have a problem with shill bidding, and I think it's impossible to stop.

Why don't I have a problem? Because I still control what I'm willing to pay. If I only bid what I'm willing to pay, what should it matter to me? You could, of course, argue that without the shill bidder I would not reach my maximum bid amount, but that's an unknown. Without the shill intervening, someone else might see the low price and do so.

Why do I think it's impossible to stop? Because even if the seller isn't using a dummy account, he can always ask a friend with an eBay account to bid. That type of shill is impossible to stop - if they're legally separate individuals and accounts, eBay will never be able to prove the bid was a shill bid.

This is like Macy's announcing a 50 percent off sale days after they cranked up prices 25 percent. You're obviously not REALLY getting 50 percent off. Happens all the time. No reason to get mad about it, it's how the world works.


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## Ridewithme38 (Aug 27, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> I really don't have a problem with shill bidding, and I think it's impossible to stop.
> 
> Why don't I have a problem? Because I still control what I'm willing to pay. If I only bid what I'm willing to pay, what should it matter to me? You could, of course, argue that without the shill bidder I would not reach my maximum bid amount, but that's an unknown. Without the shill intervening, someone else might see the low price and do so.
> 
> ...



Thank you! you said that much better then i ever could


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## Robert D (Aug 27, 2010)

NEGreyhound said:


> It seemed that when this seller http://cgi.ebay.com/HAWAII-BEACH-PAHIO-WYNDHAM-TIMESHARE-KAUAI-RCI-OCEAN-/270625640889?pt=Timeshares
> got caught selling 3 timeshares but only listing one and then posting a second and third chance option and not being willing to sell the others for the 3rd place bidders price he blocked me from future bidding! This also, for no known reason has caused this seller http://cgi.ebay.com/2BR-LOCKOFF-WESTIN-KAANAPALI-HAWAII-MAUI-TIMESHARE-/310243953578?pt=Timeshares to block my bidding. Coincidence? I don't know but there are some very irregular things happening on ebay.



I noticed one was Memorable Vacactions and the other Ochoa.  Never had any experience with MV but asked a question of Ochoa on an auction not long ago and got an arrogant answer back and decided to not bid on the week or any other of his weeks.


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## Robert D (Aug 27, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> I really don't have a problem with shill bidding, and I think it's impossible to stop.
> 
> Why don't I have a problem? Because I still control what I'm willing to pay. If I only bid what I'm willing to pay, what should it matter to me? You could, of course, argue that without the shill bidder I would not reach my maximum bid amount, but that's an unknown. Without the shill intervening, someone else might see the low price and do so.
> 
> ...



I couldn't disagee more.  Whenever I snipe an Ebay auction I'm always hoping to get it for less than my maximum bid and many times I have won it for quite a bit less.  Shill bidding is cheating, basically fraud - there's a reason it's against the law!


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## Robert D (Aug 27, 2010)

Bwolf said:


> Shill bidding may be against the rules on Ebay, but ask yourself, how does
> Ebay make money and doesn't it make more money if bids are higher?  Also, the more sellers on Ebay the more money Ebay makes.  Does Ebay want to run off any sellers?



This is true unless Ebay gets a reputation that it's not a fair system and then their entire business could be at risk.  I agree that they don't police their system for shills and other problems as much as they should.  My guess is that 99% of their sellers are honest and legit and I don't think they need the business from the other 1%.  The most important asset a service business like Ebay has is their good reputation


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## Ken555 (Aug 27, 2010)

Robert D said:


> I couldn't disagee more.  Whenever I snipe an Ebay auction I'm always hoping to get it for less than my maximum bid and many times I have won it for quite a bit less.  Shill bidding is cheating, basically fraud - there's a reason it's against the law!



Thanks Robert. Well said. I agree with you completely. It's amazing to me how pervasive unethical behavior extends throughout society. It's threads like this one that remind me of the reality.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 27, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> ...
> This is like Macy's announcing a 50 percent off sale days after they cranked up prices 25 percent. You're obviously not REALLY getting 50 percent off. Happens all the time. No reason to get mad about it, it's how the world works.



No, this is not the same thing as shill bidding...
...comparing apples and poverty...


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## Ridewithme38 (Aug 27, 2010)

DavidnRobin said:


> No, this is not the same thing as shill bidding...
> ...comparing apples and poverty...



Shill bidding and setting a reserve are the same...

I've put things up on Ebay...then last minute realized it wasn't going to sell for as much as i hoped..so i asked friends to step in as a bidder and bid it up to $XX...Thats nothing more then setting a reserve...if it doesn't sell for the amount the Shill Bumped it up to...it doesn't sell

I don't know how else Shill bidding can be done...the shill bidder Can't know how high your bid is...if he goes above it...he has now set a reserve, if you decide to bid higher then the reserve...thats completely up to you

Like i see i don't see anything UNethical about it...I'm not sure that its Ethical either...It just is what it is...Don't forget guys...just because you don't agree with how something is done...Doesn't make it Unethical for everyone


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## Ken555 (Aug 27, 2010)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Shill bidding and setting a reserve are the same...
> 
> I've put things up on Ebay...then last minute realized it wasn't going to sell for as much as i hoped..so i asked friends to step in as a bidder and bid it up to $XX...Thats nothing more then setting a reserve...if it doesn't sell for the amount the Shill Bumped it up to...it doesn't sell
> 
> ...



Wow. I'm (almost) speechless. Shill bidding is against eBay's policies for a reason, and yet you admit participating in such activity...and still don't see what's wrong with it? Yikes.


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## Ridewithme38 (Aug 27, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> Wow. I'm (almost) speechless. Shill bidding is against eBay's policies for a reason, and yet you admit participating in such activity...and still don't see what's wrong with it? Yikes.



Driving over 30 in a 30mph zone is against the LAW...and i sometimes do it, crossing the street away from designated Crossing zones is illegal...Yet i sometimes do that...I have also been known to Loiter and/or act in other ways nefariously....

Shill bidding is just part of normal business practice


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## sjuhawk_jd (Aug 27, 2010)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Driving over 30 in a 30mph zone is against the LAW...and i sometimes do it, crossing the street away from designated Crossing zones is illegal...Yet i sometimes do that...I have also been known to Loiter and/or act in other ways nefariously....
> 
> Shill bidding is just part of normal business practice



Shill bidding is not part of normal business practice. It is illegal in live auctions and it is illegal on ebay auctions. 

Since you are so honest, can you post your ebay ID here so we make sure not to bid on your auctions!


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## Ken555 (Aug 27, 2010)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Driving over 30 in a 30mph zone is against the LAW...and i sometimes do it, crossing the street away from designated Crossing zones is illegal...Yet i sometimes do that...I have also been known to Loiter and/or act in other ways nefariously....
> 
> Shill bidding is just part of normal business practice



I see. Laws, rules and regulations obviously apply to other people, but not you.

By any chance are you in timeshare sales?


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 27, 2010)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Shill bidding and setting a reserve are the same...
> 
> I've put things up on Ebay...then last minute realized it wasn't going to sell for as much as i hoped..so i asked friends to step in as a bidder and bid it up to $XX...Thats nothing more then setting a reserve...if it doesn't sell for the amount the Shill Bumped it up to...it doesn't sell
> 
> ...



Please see my post above describe a key difference between shill bidding and setting a reserve.  I am sorry that you cannot understand the ethical/moral difference (or claim to understand, but disagree) - it is pretty straightfoward. 

You are arguing a losing-side here - I would consider letting it go.  'Ethics' by definition is tied to moralilty.  The driving analogy is just plain ______ ... shill bidding is unethical and immoral - driving over the speed limit is neither ethical or unethical - or moral or immoral.  Stealing is unethical and immoral - yet some people do it, but doesn't change that it is still unethical/immoral.  Scamming people out of money is unethical/immoral (which is what shill bidding does to some extent...).  Jaywalking... not unethical/immoral, but it is illegal - not all illegal things are unethical/immoral.

I really do not care about shill bidding - I set a max price that I am willing to pay way ahead of time based on the items value to me (as I do buying something from Macys regardless of their pricing technics) - and do not get into bidding wars, or artificially high auction amounts.


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## Ridewithme38 (Aug 27, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> I see. Laws, rules and regulations obviously apply to other people, but not you.
> 
> By any chance are you in timeshare sales?



Are you saying you don't drive slightly over 30 in 30mph zones? Cross other places then cross walks? I don't know....i like to be honest with people, sometimes its comes out brutal or insensative sometimes i just give out Too much information for comfort....But atleast with the cards down on the table i don't have to be scared of what i'm hiding from the world.....

I think its silly for someone to act like a saint when none of us are...It shows insecurity and fear...What are you Hiding or what are you hiding FROM Ken?


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## Ridewithme38 (Aug 27, 2010)

DavidnRobin said:


> Please see my post above describe a key difference between shill bidding and setting a reserve.  I am sorry that you cannot understand the ethical/moral difference (or claim to understand, but disagree) - it is pretty straightfoward.



Maybe we're just looking at Shill bidding differently?  The only difference i see between Setting a Reserve and Shill Bidding is that in one case your auction say "This item has a Reserve" and no one bids on it...and in another you auction doesn't say that and you set the reserve Manually...by bidding

This is how i see Shill bidding, literally used as a Last minute Reserve



> I've put things up on Ebay...then last minute realized it wasn't going to sell for as much as i hoped..so i asked friends to step in as a bidder and bid it up to $XX...Thats nothing more then setting a reserve...if it doesn't sell for the amount the Shill Bumped it up to...it doesn't sell



This is how you see Shill Bidding...



> The intent of a shill intent is to drive bids up - setting a reserve does not do this. Setting a reserve is telling the bidder that a certain minimum will be accepted in an honest and upfront way.



You believe shill bidding is Unethical because i don't tell you right off the bat exactly the minimum i will take for my item? I've haggled at ALOT of flea markets and garage sales that were unethical in that case

Or is it because people end up paying more for an item worth less? Geez i hope you don't shop at walmart...


I think if you think of Shill bidding as Haggling you'll better understand the intent..the Sellers and shill's job is to get the most they can for the Product, Think Used car Salesman, one owner, only driven on sunday except instead of the salesman making it appear the car is perfect...the shill makes it appear that everyone wants it, so you ASSUME its perfect....Your job is to keep prices down


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## Ken555 (Aug 27, 2010)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Are you saying you don't drive slightly over 30 in 30mph zones? Cross other places then cross walks? I don't know....i like to be honest with people, sometimes its comes out brutal or insensative sometimes i just give out Too much information for comfort....But atleast with the cards down on the table i don't have to be scared of what i'm hiding from the world.....
> 
> I think its silly for someone to act like a saint when none of us are...It shows insecurity and fear...What are you Hiding or what are you hiding FROM Ken?



Well, I certainly don't break the law, and when I participate on eBay, I abide by their rules. Considering I haven't done anything to justify any accusation that I'm hiding something (!) I find it interesting that you are twisting the issue away from the obvious error of your ways. Unethical, immoral behavior should be criticized by all of us, and I am sorry for you and those close to you that may be affected by your inability to see right from wrong. 

I'm done with this conversation.


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## LAX Mom (Aug 27, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> Well, I certainly don't break the law, and when I participate on eBay, I abide by their rules. Considering I haven't done anything to justify any accusation that I'm hiding something (!) I find it interesting that you are twisting the issue away from the obvious error of your ways. Unethical, immoral behavior should be criticized by all of us, and I am sorry for you and those close to you that may be affected by your inability to see right from wrong.
> 
> I'm done with this conversation.



Very well said Ken! 

Good point about following the rules and regulations of ebay. Nobody has to participate on ebay, but if you choose to play the game you have to follow the rules. If you're worried about not getting enough for your item then set a reserve. Shill bidding is not allowed by ebay.

It is dishonest to misrepresent the facts of anything you are selling. It is not okay for a used car saleman to state that a car had one owner and was only driven on Sunday. Honesty, trust and integrity are more important than a quick sale.

Like Ken, I'm done with this discussion and reading about these rationalizations.


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## Ridewithme38 (Aug 27, 2010)

I think these last two posts by Ken and Lax speak for themselves


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## DeniseM (Aug 27, 2010)

Ridewithme38 - is this you?  http://www.blogtalkradio.com/vapersplace/2010/08/16/an-hour-with-ridewithme38

This truly "speaks for itself."


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## glypnirsgirl (Aug 27, 2010)

It explains the whole "it was all Elen's fault, poor Tiger" thread!


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 27, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Ridewithme38 - is this you?  http://www.blogtalkradio.com/vapersplace/2010/08/16/an-hour-with-ridewithme38
> 
> This truly "speaks for itself."



Good detective work, Denise!


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 27, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Ridewithme38 - is this you?  http://www.blogtalkradio.com/vapersplace/2010/08/16/an-hour-with-ridewithme38
> 
> This truly "speaks for itself."



I am 2 for 2 with the ignore function - does TUG have a perma ban on trolls?


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## Ridewithme38 (Aug 28, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Ridewithme38 - is this you?  http://www.blogtalkradio.com/vapersplace/2010/08/16/an-hour-with-ridewithme38
> 
> This truly "speaks for itself."



Wow...i'm kinda impressed with the find....Thats me


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## jarta (Aug 28, 2010)

It's not that hard when you have access IP addresses - and use them. 

Shill bidding is just cheating.    ...   eom


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## ondeadlin (Aug 28, 2010)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Shill bidding and setting a reserve are the same...



Exactly. There's really no difference between the two.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 28, 2010)

I also have two people on ignore, and it looks as if both posted consecutively in this thread.  I guess I am out of this thread.  If it is a thread that inspires both to post, it's of no interest to me.


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## J&JFamily (Aug 29, 2010)

jarta said:


> It's not that hard when you have access IP addresses - and use them.
> 
> Shill bidding is just cheating.    ...   eom



That is ridiculous!  Accusing Denise of using her access to IP addresses is absolutely ridiculous.  All you have to do is google ridewithme38 and this link pops up.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to find people nowadays, especially when the person you're looking for is a self-proclaimed troll who needs attention.

Wikipedia definition of troll:  In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
My translation:  A person who needs to grow up and get a real job.

Maybe ridewithme38 isn't the only troll here...


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## esk444 (Sep 8, 2010)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Shill bidding and setting a reserve are the same...
> 
> I've put things up on Ebay...then last minute realized it wasn't going to sell for as much as i hoped..so i asked friends to step in as a bidder and bid it up to $XX...Thats nothing more then setting a reserve...if it doesn't sell for the amount the Shill Bumped it up to...it doesn't sell
> 
> ...



The funny thing is your arguments are almost identical to the two defendents that were charged and convicted of wire fraud for shill bidding, among a lot of other things like forgery, for art auctions on ebay.


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## Ridewithme38 (Sep 8, 2010)

esk444 said:


> The funny thing is your arguments are almost identical to the two defendents that were charged and convicted of wire fraud for shill bidding, among a lot of other things like forgery, for art auctions on ebay.



Ethical doesn't always equal Legal


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## RedDogSD (Sep 8, 2010)

I can't believe the gang mentality around here.  Shill bidding, like anything else, has shades of grey.  Speeding 5 MPH over the limit is not a big deal.  People who drive 75 in a 35 should be arrested and their license taken away.  

Ridewithme talks about just setting up a reserve.  Well, in that limited sense, if done early in the auction process, and not done repeatedly, not a huge deal.  If the person does not want their item to sell for less than a certain amount, which is a reasonable amount, ok.  If their item is worth $2000, and they do not want to give it away for less than $500, they can set a reserve or do a minor bit of shill bidding.  Some people only bid on no-reserve auctions.  

HOWEVER, if the auction goes over their "minimum" selling price, and they CONTINUE to shill bid to MAXIMIZE their profit (assume that the bidding is up to $1700 and the shill bidder tries to get the price up closer to $2000), that is unethical, and BS.  

This issue, like EVERY issue in the world, is not black and white.  There are always shades of grey.


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## DeniseM (Sep 8, 2010)

Since this thread has dwindled down to an argument over ethics - a contentious social issue, I think we are done.


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