# Holy Smokes. In Nov/Dec 2019, Four Wyndham Transfers w 1/19 use year



## Grammarhero (Dec 24, 2019)

thanks for TUG and @dgalati in particular for teaching me Wyndham use strategies.  @SNA27, @TUGBrian, @Fredflintstone, @paxsarah, @DeniseM, @CO skier just thought you should know.


As attached, I got my second Dec 2019 Wyndham TS transfer with a 1/1/19 use year.  I actually got four (4) Wyndham TS Transfers in November or December 2019 with 1/1/19 use year.

Accounting for sunk $204 total closing costs, my effective MF ranges from $2.1/1k to $3.3/1k:

I got 154k Grand Desert in Dec 2019.  If I give Grand Desert back via Ovations on 1/2021 after three years usage, my effective MF would be $2.1/1k.

I just got 84k Ocean Walk in Dec 2019.  If I give back via Ovations on 1/2021 after three years usage, my effective MF would be $2.6/1k.

I got 128k Star Island on 11/1/19.  Even counting the extra $200 in closing costs, if I give back Star Island via Ovations on 1/2021 after three years usage, my effective MF would be $3.3/1k.

I got 64k CWA in 11/1/19. If I give CWA back via Ovations on 1/2021 after three years usage, my effective MF would be $2.8/1k.


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## samara64 (Dec 24, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> thanks for TUG and @dgalati in particular for teaching me Wyndham use strategies.  @SNA27, @TUGBrian, @Fredflintstone, @paxsarah, @DeniseM, @CO skier just thought you should know.
> 
> 
> As attached, I got my second Dec 2019 Wyndham TS transfer for a 1/1/19 use year.  This means I got four (4) Wyndham TS Transfers in November or December 2019 with 1/1/19 use year.
> ...



I think this is a great post that will make Wyndham stop this loophole.


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## philemer (Dec 24, 2019)

Why are you saying "If I give back via Ovations..."?  Seems meaningless if you are keeping your timeshares.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 24, 2019)

philemer said:


> Why are you saying "If I give back via Ovations..."?  Seems meaningless if you are keeping your timeshares.


I actually like my Grand Desert.  Others, not so much.  I did like essentially free 2019 usage though.


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 24, 2019)

You can't get 3 years of usage on a resale purchase (I'm pretty sure).


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## Grammarhero (Dec 24, 2019)

cbyrne1174 said:


> You can't get 3 years of usage on a resale purchase (I'm pretty sure).


I can if:
1) a Wyndham Ts transferred in Nov or Dec 2019 with Jan 2019 year usage;
2) new pts on Jan 2020;
3) new pts on Jan 2021; and
4) Wyndham Ovations.

3 years usage on 14/15 months MF payment.


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 24, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> I can if:
> 1) a Wyndham Ts transferred in Nov or Dec 2019 with Jan 2019 year usage;
> 2) new pts on Jan 2020;
> 3) new pts on Jan 2021; and
> ...



I think the key points are:

1. Extra points received through strategic buying.
2. Always buy resale to get maximum value
3. Have an exit strategy if things go sour or vacation situations change.

I might add: purchase in non judicial, anti deficiency states if you can’t deed back, resell after a good, strong effort and unable to rent to cover MF. It is of course the LAST resort but at least an ace in the hole.

Great strategy, @Grammarhero. Merry Christmas!


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## Grammarhero (Dec 24, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> I think the key points are:
> 
> 1. Extra points received through strategic buying.
> 2. Always buy resale to get maximum value
> ...


I actually kind of like my Star Island and Ocean Walk too as they are in FL, an anti-deficiency TS state.  My CWA is awful, deeded in Delaware, a deficiency state.


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 24, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> I actually kind of like my Star Island and Ocean Walk too as they are in FL, an anti-deficiency TS state.  My CWA is awful, deeded in Delaware, a deficiency state.



Yes, next time when or if you recalibrate, perhaps purchase in anti deficiency state. I would have all my inventory in those states. Even if you don’t ever use it, it’s great to have as an emergency bail out PLUS gives you more power if you need to negotiate a deed back.

I am sure the CWA could be sold for a buck if you have too and maybe eat the transfer costs.


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## dgalati (Dec 24, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> thanks for TUG and @dgalati in particular for teaching me Wyndham use strategies.  @SNA27, @TUGBrian, @Fredflintstone, @paxsarah, @DeniseM, @CO skier
> 
> 
> As attached, I got my second Dec 2019 Wyndham TS transfer for a 1/1/19 use year.  This means I got four (4) Wyndham TS Transfers in November or December 2019 with 1/1/19 use year.
> ...


Timing is everything. Learn the system and make it work for your situation.  $/1000 comparable to VIP cost when booking in the 60 day discount window.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 24, 2019)

samara64 said:


> I think this is a great post that will make Wyndham stop this loophole.


How is it a loophole if:
1) seller and I agreed seller would pay 10-11 months MF and me 1-2 months MF for 2019; and
2) I would get 2019 usage?


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 24, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> How is it a loophole if:
> 1) seller and I agreed seller would pay 10-11 months MF and me 1-2 months MF for 2019; and
> 2) I would get 2019 usage?



Personally, I just see this as smart buying and helpful to the seller as well (as their obligations end). Wyndham isn’t out a thing. They got the full MF.  Win win.


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## dgalati (Dec 24, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> I think the key points are:
> 
> 1. Extra points received through strategic buying.
> 2. Always buy resale to get maximum value
> ...


(((Extra points received through strategic buying))) Some may call this a abuse or loophole.  I compare it to how many VIP owners are using resale points when booking in the 60 day discount window.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 24, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> Personally, I just see this as smart buying and helpful to the seller as well (as their obligations end). Wyndham isn’t out a thing. They got the full MF.  Win win.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Exactly, to think Wesley is scamming Wyndham TS owners $3k to divest Wyndham TS.  The Wyndham TS owner could easily get out if they agreed to pay transfer costs and 10-11 months MF and give buyers essentially free 1 year usagez


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 24, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Exactly, to think Wesley is scamming Wyndham TS owners $3k to divest Wyndham TS.  The Wyndham TS owner could easily get out if they agreed to pay transfer costs and 10-11 months MF and give buyers essentially free 1 year usagez



Yes, I see it as an added perk. In my case, I bought TS cheap and were given incentives (like free transfer, free RCI, etc.) when I sold them all (except one), I paid it forward by selling for a buck, paid trAnsfer and in 2 cases paid an extra year of MF.

In all cases, except one, the TS got their full MF and out nothing. I don’t see that as abuse/loophole.  Just the reality of buying and selling. 


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 24, 2019)

Just to reiterate...I see non judicial, anti deficiency states as a way to level the playing field. It really keeps the TS in line and open to deed backs, less sticky on ROFR and watch their step a bit on abusing owners with erroneous fees. The main problem I see with timeshares is they are easy to get in, harder to get out. State friendly legislation is helpful in keeping these companies in check.

Personally, I think non judicial, anti deficiency legislation has greatly helped the owners thru the establishment of deed back programs. I think if that legislation wasn’t there, the companies would be less inclined to deed back (that and Exit Companies nipping on their heels.) and have no leash for the owners to pull on.

So, having perks like what @Grammarhero discovered thru TUG is great. It is just another avenue to reward buyers and added ammo for owners who wish to sell to get out.


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## samara64 (Dec 24, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> How is it a loophole if:
> 1) seller and I agreed seller would pay 10-11 months MF and me 1-2 months MF for 2019; and
> 2) I would get 2019 usage?



Wyn can easily say no more 3 year usage after deed back for resales or make it 5 years in new owner name before ovation. They do adjust all the time.


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 24, 2019)

samara64 said:


> Wyn can easily say no more 3 year usage after deed back for resales or make it 5 years in new owner name before ovation. They do adjust all the time.



True. But then the Owner can decide to dump Wyndham. 


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## Jan M. (Dec 24, 2019)

If you haven't already started planning you may want to start. Especially if you are intending to take advantage of your ARP at your home resorts and want to make the most of your points by going in the lowest point weeks.

*Star Island* value season weeks are: 37-40 and 49-50. A two bedroom deluxe for a full week is 126,000 points of the 128,000 you own at SI
We were just at Star Island this past week, week 50, and both weeks 49 and 50 are a  great time to do the Disney World Parks. Not too hot and they are all decorated for Christmas. Make sure to call and request building 25; it's so convenient especially with kids. You will be right there by the playground, the miniature golf and very close to the pool. The playground is a very nice one. The pool has a splash pad play area for younger kids. We and our 3 and 8 year old granddaughters like the resort.

*Ocean Walk *value season weeks are: 2-4, 40-43, 45-47, 49-51. I'd be looking at weeks 40-43 for the best beach weather. Your 84k point ARP will get you only 4 week nights in either a two bedroom deluxe, 18k a night, or a two bedroom standard lock off unit, 20k a night. I'd go with using 2k more points per night for the two bedroom standard lock of because those units are for sure oceanfront. Not all the two bedroom deluxe units are ocean front. Since it is pretty easy to get cheap flights into and out of Orlando I would probably use some of my other points for a few nights in Orlando to go with my four nights at the beach.

*Grand Desert* doesn't have value season weeks just prime and high but the lower point high season weeks are: 1, 3-5, 43-45, 47-48, 50-51. Your best weather in the high weeks is going to be weeks 43-45. You own 154k and that gives you ARP for a full week in a one bedroom deluxe, 126k, if it's just you and your wife going. If the whole family is going and you need a two bedroom deluxe you can book 5 week nights at 20k each and either a Friday or Saturday night at 41k for a total of 141k points for the 6 night stay. Week 43 is Halloween week and Downtown Vegas on Friday and Saturday nights is a lot of fun the last couple weeks of October.

The best part about having points is you don't ever have to stay at any of your home resorts and can go anywhere you want with your points. So do you have any plans yet or are you still having fun thinking about all the places you would like to go?


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 24, 2019)

I haven't stayed at a single one of my home resorts lol, nor do I plan to any time soon. I just went for free/cheap with low MF fees: Royal Garden, Grand Desert, Towers on the Grove and Smoky Mountains.


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## dgalati (Dec 24, 2019)

samara64 said:


> Wyn can easily say no more 3 year usage after deed back for resales or make it 5 years in new owner name before ovation. They do adjust all the time.


On the free usage Wyndham care less who uses points when giving back through Ovations?  Wyndham lets a owner use the current use year points and is getting a deed to resell at 25-30k for free. Wyndham dosen't care who pays monthly maintenance fees either. There is no chance of Wyndham changing the 1 year minimum to 5 years. You know how costly that would be to the club and all owners?  Wyndham has been known to buy back deeds that they wouldn't take back with Ovations because a owner didn't meet the year minimum.


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## dgalati (Dec 24, 2019)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I haven't stayed at a single one of my home resorts lol, nor do I plan to any time soon. I just went for free/cheap with low MF fees: Royal Garden, Grand Desert, Towers on the Grove and Smoky Mountains.


Traveling at the lowest cost possible can be done many ways. @Grammarhero has shown a great low cost way of buying resale points then using 3 years of points with only paying 14-15 months of maintenance fees. Another way of traveling at a lower cost is to Buy developer points and become a VIP, add additional low cost resale points and use them with the VIP 50% discounts.  The sunk cost of buying developer points can be recouped in as few as several years. The downside is the maintenance fees on millions of point can get hard to manage compared to the strategy of @Grammarhero  buying without a sunk cost to recoup and paying only 14-15 months of maintenance  fees while enjoying 3 years of use.


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## dgalati (Dec 24, 2019)

cbyrne1174 said:


> You can't get 3 years of usage on a resale purchase (I'm pretty sure).


It can be done. Timing is of essence.


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## dgalati (Dec 24, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> I can if:
> 1) a Wyndham Ts transferred in Nov or Dec 2019 with Jan 2019 year usage;
> 2) new pts on Jan 2020;
> 3) new pts on Jan 2021; and
> ...


How many points/maintenance fees total if you give back in 14-15 months?


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## Grammarhero (Dec 24, 2019)

dgalati said:


> How many points/maintenance fees total if you give back in 14-15 months?


About $3,153 for 1.29 million pts.  Comes about to $2.44/1k effective MF.


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 24, 2019)

Does wyndham take back ocean walk and star island?


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## raygo123 (Dec 24, 2019)

dgalati said:


> It can be done. Timing is of essence.


I will give you three to one odds he gets nothing if they take them back at all.  Wyndham will NEVER has or never will give anyone anything for a resale contract.  How do I know?  I turned in my FOXRUN.to ovations and received nothing ziltch zip.  The original scheme was to buy a contract strip the points and then resale it.  Wyndham will not accept a stripped contract.  You may sell the contract but Wyndham will not accept it.  And eventually he will end up still owning it.  So not only can he kiss his $2/1000 points but will end up with paying thee maintenance fees on those contracts. The whole idea is about hree years to late.  That "loophole" no longer exists.

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## Braindead (Dec 24, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> I will give you three to one odds he gets nothing if they take them back at all.  Wyndham will NEVER has or never will give anyone anything for a resale contract.  How do I know?  I turned in my FOXRUN.to ovations and received nothing ziltch zip.  The original scheme was to buy a contract strip the points and then resale it.  Wyndham will not accept a stripped contract.  You may sell the contract but Wyndham will not accept it.  And eventually he will end up still owning it.  So not only can he kiss his $2/1000 points but will end up with paying thee maintenance fees on those contracts. The whole idea is about hree years to late.  That "loophole" no longer exists


You don’t understand what they’re describing.
The 3 years for 14 or 15 months of MFs works like this.
The contract transfers in November-December & you put 2019 points into RCI since it’s a resell account that’s the only option.
Use 2020 points
Then one of two things follow
1.Borrow 2021 points for 2020 reservations. Then start Ovations process in December 2020 by the time your contract is transferred to Wyndham its 2021 & dgalati claims Wyndham doesn’t care if you’ve already used all 2021 points. Start to end in 14 or 15 months getting 3 years worth of points.
2. Start Ovations process December 2020, in January 2021 put your 2021 points into RCI before the contracts transfers to Wyndham. Again dgalati claims Wyndham doesn’t care if you’ve transferred the 2021 points to RCI. Again start to end in 14-15 months getting 3 years worth of points.

Dgalati brags that he doesn’t use Ovations instead he sells the contracts to Wyndham through a third party wholesale buyer.

From what dgalati has posted this loophole may have been closed. Wyndham has told dgalati if he does this next year he’ll have to pay the rental rate of $12 per 1k points. So after this whole thread it may already be a loophole that’s been closed.

So all the bragging & gloating going on in is thread is probably not going to work & it shouldn’t work!!!!


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 24, 2019)

Just curious.

1.  Were you able to use all of those 2019 points at this late stage in the year?  Or did you dump them into RCI?
2.  In 2021, do you plan on using all of your points before sending the stripped contracts to Ovations?  Borrowing them into 2020, I'm  guessing?  Will you be renting units at 50% discounts or at a 67% discount, passing along your savings?
3.  Why not just get the 4th year, also.  You could borrow the 2022 points and use them in Jan/Feb 2021.

Quite a plan.  Hope you are able to execute.  While Wyndham seems to be taking stripped contracts, now per your mentor, will they still be taking stripped contracts come 2021?  If they are reading these blogs, you should be prepared to expect a change when the new privileges system rolls out.  Good Luck.


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## raygo123 (Dec 24, 2019)

Braindead said:


> You don’t understand what they’re describing.
> The 3 years for 14 or 15 months of MFs works like this.
> The contract transfers in November-December & you put 2019 points into RCI since it’s a resell account that’s the only option.
> Use 2020 points
> ...


I think it was fool me once Shane on you.  Fool me twice shame on me.  He also has to abide by the point rental terms and conditions. Wyndham could have taken away his privileges.

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## Braindead (Dec 24, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> I think it was fool me once Shane on you.  Fool me twice shame on me.  He also has to abide by the point rental terms and conditions. Wyndham could have taken away his privileges.


You might be right, dgalati says he’s on his way out the door.  Maybe Wyndham showed dgalati the door!!


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## raygo123 (Dec 24, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> I think it was fool me once Shane on you.  Fool me twice shame on me.  He also has to abide by the point rental terms and conditions. Wyndham could have taken away his privileges.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


There are so seasoned owners on here.  If they ever sold a stripped contract the buyer was well aware.  One wonders if there was full disclosure.

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## philemer (Dec 24, 2019)

This process is TOO much work, IMHO. I have other hobbies.


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## Eric B (Dec 25, 2019)

On the front end, this sounds like the typical process of buying a TS from someone willing to give you a free use in order to divest it. I have no problem with that and I doubt that Wyndham would either.  I'm not sure the points in RCI would do me much good as I've already got plenty of access to RCI resorts without doing this; it might be worth doing for someone without an ability and either RCI points or weeks to already exchange.

On the back end, it sounds like one would be getting an extra value from Wyndham for no outlay along with them agreeing to relieve the continuing obligation to pay MFs.  It probably wouldn't take them long to figure out that this isn't a good business model as they already seem to have plenty of inventory to sell as developer points.  I would be a bit surprised if they haven't already figured that out and taken action on it as many have now posted.

If Wyndham declines to take back the contracts through Ovation, the $2 or $3/kpts is a short term thing and should really be adjusted to account for the necessary RCI exchange fees.  In the longer term, the point cost for the contracts is lower than CWA, so is nothing to sneer at, but bear in mind that when the time comes, the purchaser may have to make the same offers in order to divest them (free year use and transfer payment), so it could wind up being a wash.

Personally, I would never go into a transaction with an expressed intent like the one described here to get something for nothing on the back end because my profession is subject to ethical constraints.  Stepping back from the transactions as described, this appears to be more problematic to me than something as simple as accepting a timeshare deed that was signed months prior by the grantor when they contracted with a broker having the intent to divest the property as some have commented on as being too challenging to do when under similar ethical constraints.  It's probably not per se prohibited, but has the appearance of impropriety to me.


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## raygo123 (Dec 25, 2019)

Eric B said:


> On the front end, this sounds like the typical process of buying a TS from someone willing to give you a free use in order to divest it. I have no problem with that and I doubt that Wyndham would either.  I'm not sure the points in RCI would do me much good as I've already got plenty of access to RCI resorts without doing this; it might be worth doing for someone without an ability and either RCI points or weeks to already exchange.
> 
> On the back end, it sounds like one would be getting an extra value from Wyndham for no outlay along with them agreeing to relieve the continuing obligation to pay MFs.  It probably wouldn't take them long to figure out that this isn't a good business model as they already seem to have plenty of inventory to sell as developer points.  I would be a bit surprised if they haven't already figured that out and taken action on it as many have now posted.
> 
> ...


It is prohibited.  And if not disclosed to buy the seller probably illegal as this is a real estate transaction. The "club Wyndham" sits on a basis of two real estate trusts.  Especially where in the Select trust the ownership is deeded.

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## Eric B (Dec 25, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> It is prohibited.  And if not disclosed [by] the seller probably illegal as this is a real estate transaction. The "club Wyndham" sits on a basis of two real estate trusts.  Especially where in the Select trust the ownership is deeded.



Which aspect is prohibited?  The front half, where the seller includes the equivalent of a cash payment inducement or the back half, where the former buyer, now grantor of a deed back to Wyndham, accelerates the next year's usage to the current year, then transfers the ownership back without the first years usage rights?  Neither strikes me as being something that would actually be illegal, though the latter one could be skating a bit close to the line.  Wyndham could take action to prohibit either because they control the resort transfer aspect of the transaction, but they don't sound like things one couldn't agree to in a contract for the sale of real estate.  I'm with you on the need for disclosure at both ends; it's the overall scheme that seems questionable to me, particularly if it becomes a pattern of transactions rather than a single set.  It just feels to me like it's a "scheme" in a somewhat shady sense when it's plainly described like this rather than something above board.  I wouldn't do it myself because of the appearances is all I'm saying.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> It is prohibited.  And if not disclosed to buy the seller probably illegal as this is a real estate transaction. The "club Wyndham" sits on a basis of two real estate trusts.  Especially where in the Select trust the ownership is deeded.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


Show me the laws and authorities that says such is illegal or prohibited. Again, I am talking about deeding back to Ovations not selling to someone.  Please cite to Florida Law.  I think you’re just talking out of your butt.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> Just curious.
> 
> 1.  Were you able to use all of those 2019 points at this late stage in the year?  Or did you dump them into RCI?
> 2.  In 2021, do you plan on using all of your points before sending the stripped contracts to Ovations?  Borrowing them into 2020, I'm  guessing?  Will you be renting units at 50% discounts or at a 67% discount, passing along your savings?
> ...


Thanks for letting me know.  @dgalati FYI.  Might be possible to get a fourth year.
1) transferred and use Wyndham pts in Nov/Dec 19 for 2019 use year pts;
2) use 2020 and borrow 2021 use year pts in 2020; and,
3) borrow 2022 use year pts and reserve for Jan 2021.
4) begin Ovations in Jan 2021.

One would really have to have a flexible schedule.  That means it’s possible to get four years usage on 15-16 months MF payments.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> Just curious.
> 
> 1.  Were you able to use all of those 2019 points at this late stage in the year?  Or did you dump them into RCI?
> 2.  In 2021, do you plan on using all of your points before sending the stripped contracts to Ovations?  Borrowing them into 2020, I'm  guessing?  Will you be renting units at 50% discounts or at a 67% discount, passing along your savings?
> ...


1. In Nov 2019, I booked a week trip to Hawaii, but my wife’s work torpedoed that.  So I eventually deposited into RCI.
2. I plan to use 2020 pts and borrow 2021 pts.  If I do rent, I plan to pass some of the discounts to fellow tuggers.
3. Thanks for letting me know about possible fourth year 2022 usage in Jan 2021.


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## A.Win (Dec 25, 2019)

To me, this sounds like a case of buying low and selling high. You are buying a contract with points included and you are quickly selling it (14 months later) with no points. 

It is similar to buying a traditional week with a free use year and then quickly selling it without a free week. In this scenario, you could get a free week. Or more likely, 2 weeks for the price of 1. 

Of course, it is not easy to find these great deals. I suppose you are telling us that in the complicated Wyndham world, it is easy to buy low and sell high if you know the timing loopholes that others do not know.


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## Braindead (Dec 25, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> 1. In Nov 2019, I booked a week trip to Hawaii, but my wife’s work torpedoed that.  So I eventually deposited into RCI.
> 2. I plan to use 2020 pts and borrow 2021 pts.  If I do rent, I plan to pass some of the discounts to fellow tuggers.
> 3. Thanks for letting me know about possible fourth year 2022 usage in Jan 2021.


Even dgalati will tell you that you CANNOT USE FUTURE YEARS POINTS, only current years points can be used & that’s probably changed or going to be changed.

So try again!!! It will not work when using Ovations, selling to Wyndham through a third party wholesale broker & probably even when selling to another individual!!!


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> Even dgalati will tell you that you CANNOT USE FUTURE YEARS POINTS, only current years points can be used & that’s probably changed or going to be changed.
> 
> So try again!!!


I am still learning Wyndham.  Thanks for info.


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> Even dgalati will tell you that you CANNOT USE FUTURE YEARS POINTS, only current years points can be used & that’s probably changed or going to be changed.
> 
> So try again!!! It will not work when using Ovations, selling to Wyndham through a third party wholesale broker & probably even when selling to another individual!!!


He should be able to make Jan, 2021 bookings using 2022 points if the reservation is made inside the express window.  Would I do this knowing that my intentions were to return the doubly stripped contracts to Wyndham?  No.  But, if you really want to maximize the buy/strip/return scheme benefits, you might as well go all the way.


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## raygo123 (Dec 25, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Show me the laws and authorities that says such is illegal or prohibited. Again, I am talking about feeding back to Ovations not selling to someone.  Please cite to Florida Law.  I think you’re just talking out of your butt.


Fine.  I'm talking out of my butt.  And you are always right.  It is just like removing a light fixture from your house that the new owner expected came with the house.  Come back after you succeed so you can tell me I told you so.  Wyndham is like any other buyer.  Ovations is the program, Wyndham is the buyer.  Not everything is in writing with Wyndham.  They have already cut some resorts from Qualifying.  Also they never accepted every other contracts.  What you don't seem to understand is that like any other buyer Wyndham can put any qualifications they want on the sale, and they have.  With the added advantage of having the ability to suspend your CLUB privileges.  What amazes me is the fact that you think this is a new idea.  It is too bad that some of the "previous" owners who stripped a contract and were "audited" are no longer participating in this forum.  For months on end Wyndham held their ability to book anything at Bay while still holding them responsible for the maintenance fees. These were seasoned veterans, mega renters.  

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## Eric B (Dec 25, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Show me the laws and authorities that says such is illegal or prohibited. Again, I am talking about deeding back to Ovations not selling to someone.  Please cite to Florida Law.  I think you’re just talking out of your butt.



I don't practice real estate law pertaining to timeshares, so I'm not really sure, but don't understand why Florida Law would be applicable to Wyndham Grand Desert.  In any case, I'm not really concerned with the legality of the situation under discussion, so don't really have more than a passing curiousity.



raygo123 said:


> Fine.  I'm talking out of my butt.  And you are always right.  It is just like removing a light fixture from your house that the new owner expected came with the house.  Come back after you succeed so you can tell me I told you so.  Wyndham is like any other buyer.  Ovations is the program, Wyndham is the buyer.  Not everything is in writing with Wyndham.  They have already cut some resorts from Qualifying.  Also they never accepted every other contracts.  What you don't seem to understand is that like any other buyer Wyndham can put any qualifications they want on the sale, and they have.  With the added advantage of having the ability to suspend your CLUB privileges.  What amazes me is the fact that you think this is a new idea.  It is too bad that some of the "previous" owners who stripped a contract and were "audited" are no longer participating in this forum.  For months on end Wyndham held their ability to book anything at Bay while still holding them responsible for the maintenance fees. These were seasoned veterans, mega renters.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



I've got to agree with your take on the potential IRL implications of contract stripping schemes.  The postings a while back by @ronparise regarding his experiences with doing similar things came to mind when I read this thread.  Sometimes you can get lucky counting cards, but the house always wins in the end.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> Fine.  I'm talking out of my butt.  And you are always right.  It is just like removing a light fixture from your house that the new owner expected came with the house.  Come back after you succeed so you can tell me I told you so.  Wyndham is like any other buyer.  Ovations is the program, Wyndham is the buyer.  Not everything is in writing with Wyndham.  They have already cut some resorts from Qualifying.  Also they never accepted every other contracts.  What you don't seem to understand is that like any other buyer Wyndham can put any qualifications they want on the sale, and they have.  With the added advantage of having the ability to suspend your CLUB privileges.  What amazes me is the fact that you think this is a new idea.  It is too bad that some of the "previous" owners who stripped a contract and were "audited" are no longer participating in this forum.  For months on end Wyndham held their ability to book anything at Bay while still holding them responsible for the maintenance fees. These were seasoned veterans, mega renters.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



I’m not always right.  I’ve admitted being wrong to @Braindead above.

I’m okay if Wyndham kicks me out.  It’s a quick way to divest four of my Wyndham TS!  Two of my Wyndham resorts are in anti-deficiency states, so I wouldn’t pay MF if Wyndham held my ability to book.

I know former Wyndham owners paying retail who feel Wyndham lied to or mislead them.  These former owners think @dgalati and I are heroes for using Wyndham this way.  I guided these folks through the Wyndham LE program, in which they got three years free usage MF-Free.

@Eric B.  I think we are in same profession.  I take my ethical responsibilities seriously, enough that I no longer buy from Sumday using allegedly backdated deeds.  I actually had to call both VA and NY Bar hotlines.

I’ve also never said this was a new idea. Didn’t I acknowledge that @dgalati, who was using Wyndham years before me, was the king of using Wyndham?  That would imply my ideas aren’t new.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Eric B said:


> I don't practice real estate law pertaining to timeshares, so I'm not really sure, but don't understand why Florida Law would be applicable to Wyndham Grand Desert.  In any case, I'm not really concerned with the legality of the situation under discussion, so don't really have more than a passing curiousity.
> 
> 
> 
> I've got to agree with your take on the potential IRL implications of contract stripping schemes.  The postings a while back by @ronparise regarding his experiences with doing similar things came to mind when I read this thread.  Sometimes you can get lucky counting cards, but the house always wins in the end.


I actually like my Grand Desert so I may keep.  I have a Star Island, transferred in Nov 2019, and Ocean Walk, transferred on December 2019.  I got free 2019 usage which I’m happy about. I’m unhappy about high MF.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

@Eric B I created a table of state TS laws at https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/links-to-official-state-ts-laws-and-guides-manuals.298554/page-2

You should check it out.  My next project is looking at TS foreclosure laws across states.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Must be a TUG Christmas for me.  I’m being compared to @dgalati and @ronparise, two legendary Wyndham users and TUGGERS.


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## Braindead (Dec 25, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Must be a TUG Christmas for me.  I’m being compared to @dgalati and @ronparise, who legendary Wyndham users and TUGGERS.


You & dgalati combined can’t even strike the match to light the candle compared to the real legend Ron P!!!!!!


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## raygo123 (Dec 25, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> I’m not always right.  I’ve admitted being wrong to @Braindead above.
> 
> I’m okay if Wyndham kicks me out.  It’s a quick way to divest four of my Wyndham TS!  Two of my Wyndham resorts are in anti-deficiency states, so I wouldn’t pay MF if Wyndham held my ability to book.
> 
> ...


Heros?  Not paying fees? Have you heard of "collection agencies?  You have a bad case of deniability.  So far other long term owners have not chimed in.  This idea is not new, and you are too new to have history on your side.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> You & dgalati combined can’t even strike the match to light the candle compared to the real legend Ron P!!!!!!


True but a honor to be in the same conversation as @ronparise.


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## raygo123 (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> You & dgalati combined can’t even strike the match to light the candle compared to the real legend Ron P!!!!!!


It is most difficult to tell a person they are wrong when they know they are right.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> Heros?  Not paying fees? Have you heard of "collection agencies?  You have a bad case of deniability.  So far other long term owners have not chimed in.  This idea is not new, and you are too new to have history on your side.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


 My Star Island and Daytona Beach are in anti-deficiency states. That means in a TS foreclosure, the resorts can’t obtain deficiency judgments beyond the TS.

If Wyndham blocks me, I won’t pay any MF.  They can have their TS back.  If they refer me to collection agencies for GD or CWA, I will deal with it then.


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## raygo123 (Dec 25, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> True but a honor to be in the same conversation as @ronparise.


Not in your case.  If they were dead they would be rolling over in their graves.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> It is most difficult to tell a person they are wrong when they know they are right.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


I already acknowledged not being in the same class as Ron Parise.  So how am I wrong?  Please put me on your ignore list.  You are going on my ignore list.


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## Eric B (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> Dgalati can’t even strike the match to light the candle compared to Ron P



Agreed.  It has always struck me as being useful to be able to learn from the experiences others share on TUG.




Grammarhero said:


> @Eric B I created a table of state TS laws at https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/links-to-official-state-ts-laws-and-guides-manuals.298554/page-2
> 
> You should check it out.  My next project is looking at TS foreclosure laws across states.



I’ve seen it and appreciate the usefulness of the reference source.  The prospective one on foreclosure laws will be a great addition, too, I’m sure.




Grammarhero said:


> I actually like my Grand Desert so I may keep.  I have a Star Island, transferred in Nov 2019, and Ocean Walk, transferred on December 2019.  I got free 2019 usage which I’m happy about. I’m unhappy about high MF.



Congratulations!  I still don’t understand the connection between Grand Desert and Florida law, though; you did ask @raygo123 to cite to that law regarding a group of Wyndham CWS deeds that include that resort.  Is it applicable because of Wyndham’s location?  Wouldn’t the law of the state the deed is in control?  Guess I have to go back and look at my Wyndham contracts to see if there’s a choice of law clause for the contractual aspects.




Grammarhero said:


> Must be a TUG Christmas for me.  I’m being compared to @dgalati and @ronparise, two legendary Wyndham users and TUGGERS.



The comparison wasn’t meant that way, but instead as a useful signpost of what Wyndham’s response is likely to be to schemes similar to this.  I understand that Ron P made a decent income stripping and renting by learning and exploiting the contractual loopholes.  As a result, once Wyndham came to understand what transpired, they took action to prevent recurrence.  He’s no longer making that income by renting out Wyndham TS usage.  My big take away from Ron’s postings was the importance of reading and learning the rules of usage in the directory.  They don’t, unfortunately, cover eligibility for Ovations or audit initiating criteria, which could be problematic.


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## raygo123 (Dec 25, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Law is not your strong suit.  I can tell.  So stop trying to pretend you know the law, when you don’t.
> 
> My Star Island and Daytona Beach are in anti-deficiency states.  Do you even know what that means?  That means in a TS foreclosure, the resorts can’t obtain deficiency judgments beyond the TS.
> 
> If Wyndham blocks me, I won’t pay any MF.  They can have their TS back.  If they refer me to collection agencies for GD or CWA, I will deal with it then.


And to you,your so imbedded with law, you fail to realize there are rules.  Wyndham rules.  Rules that can change at Wyndham's whims.  Policies like Wyndham does not accept all timeshares under Ovations.  There is no rule or law against stripping a contract but there are rules associated as to how you can borrow from next year's use year.  To complete the last day of a vacation or a time frame.  Stick around you may, may, learn something. 

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Eric B said:


> Agreed.  It has always struck me as being useful to be able to learn from the experiences others share on TUG.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Many recent Wyndham TS deeds are deeded in Nevada as a TS Resort-friendly state.  My Star Island and Daytona Beach deeds are in FL, older, and pts-converted.

I actually like my GD and may keep.  My CWA, deeded in Delaware, is awful.  I did get one year free usage though.

Thanks for your comments and feedback on my allegedly backdated deed from Sumday. Interestingly, VA gives lawyer TS owners one free pass on an allegedly backdated TS deed likely because they’ve dealt with the situation many times.  NY is not nearing as forgiving.  With my one free pass, I’m not dealing with any more allegedly backdated deeds.


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 25, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Law is not your strong suit.  I can tell.  So stop trying to pretend you know the law, when you don’t.
> 
> My Star Island and Daytona Beach are in anti-deficiency states.  Do you even know what that means?  That means in a TS foreclosure, the resorts can’t obtain deficiency judgments beyond the TS.
> 
> If Wyndham blocks me, I won’t pay any MF.  They can have their TS back.  If they refer me to collection agencies for GD or CWA, I will deal with it then.


I'm interested in knowing more about the anti-deficiency law in Florida.  I have an RCI points resort in Florida, my only RCI points resort.  Do you mean to say that if I stop paying MF's, all that will happen is foreclosure?  And, maybe a hit to my credit (which I don't care about)?  They have no other recourse?


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> I'm interested in knowing more about the anti-deficiency law in Florida.  I have an RCI points resort in Florida, my only RCI points resort.  Do you mean to say that if I stop paying MF's, all that will happen is foreclosure?  And, maybe a hit to my credit (which I don't care about)?  They have no other recourse?



Is your resort deeded in FL?  Do not object to a trustee foreclosure in FL. If you object, you waive your right to an anti-deficiency judgment.

Of course, stop paying MF should be the last resort.  Yes, your credit will get dinged about 75 pts.  I uploaded a screenshot the operative statute.  Good luck!

Check out my preliminary guide.


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## capital city (Dec 25, 2019)

I don't necessarily see it as wrong but it seems like a lot of work and requires perfect timing to beat Wyndham out of ~$5k? The only problem with it to me is that anytime someone abuses something like this Wyndham takes notice and makes rule changes. That's how we lost credit pool and how we got a crappy website shoved down our throat. They rushed the website hoping they could implement security features that were found and abused in the old system. Which is probably a big reason the functionality is so bad, their main focus was on stopping abuse of the system.


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 25, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Do not object to an estate foreclosure in FL.


Yes to being deeded in Florida.  Resale contract, no mortgage.  Does 'do not object' mean ignore all attempts by the resort to reach me, just let them do what they do?

My plan is to offer my points week on the marketplace.  But, if it is not taken, just walking away seems like a reasonable alternative.

If a person knows what to do under the laws in Florida, would it not just be better for the resort to take the points week back and avoid all the costs associated with a foreclosure?  I'm looking for some leverage with the resort.


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## Iggyearl (Dec 25, 2019)

This thread is Sooo... entertaining.  There are many previous posts with advice to disappointed retail timeshare owners.  People who didn't know about the rescission period.  Couldn't reserve at 6 mos.  Had maintenance fees rise.  A change in health.  Lost a spouse.  These people just wanted to get out of their timeshare without a hassle.

The advice was to NOT stop paying maintenance fees, but to "morally" dispose of the unused timeshare.  Maybe offer it for free.  Pay next year's maintenance fees.  Pay the transfer fee.  Maybe throw in a gift card.  Do the "right thing."

Now it appears that doing the "right thing" hurts them and definitely benefits someone else.  If I was in the above described position, I think I would just stop paying maintenance fees.  No reason to give money to some "shrewd" Tug member.


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 25, 2019)

Iggyearl said:


> This thread is Sooo... entertaining.  There are many previous posts with advice to disappointed retail timeshare owners.  People who didn't know about the rescission period.  Couldn't reserve at 6 mos.  Had maintenance fees rise.  A change in health.  Lost a spouse.  These people just wanted to get out of their timeshare without a hassle.
> 
> The advice was to NOT stop paying maintenance fees, but to "morally" dispose of the unused timeshare.  Maybe offer it for free.  Pay next year's maintenance fees.  Pay the transfer fee.  Maybe throw in a gift card.  Do the "right thing."
> 
> Now it appears that doing the "right thing" hurts them and definitely benefits someone else.  If I was in the above described position, I think I would just stop paying maintenance fees.  No reason to give money to some "shrewd" Tug member.


My first plan was to give away what I have, with a full year of points.  But, giving back to the resort might actually be easier.  I just want to know my options.  You interested in a nice points resort with reasonable MF's, for free?  If so, send me a PM.


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## Braindead (Dec 25, 2019)

Iggyearl said:


> The advice was to NOT stop paying maintenance fees, but to "morally" dispose of the unused timeshare.  Maybe offer it for free.  Pay next year's maintenance fees.  Pay the transfer fee.  Maybe throw in a gift card.  Do the "right thing."
> 
> Now it appears that doing the "right thing" hurts them and definitely benefits someone else.  If I was in the above described position, I think I would just stop paying maintenance fees.  No reason to give money to some "shrewd" Tug member.


You make an excellent point.

Does TUG want to be known for advising owners “ TO NOT DO THE RIGHT THING”?? I hope not.
There is always circumstances when owners have no other choice but to stop paying MFs. 
But that shouldn’t be the first advice or the standard advice for everyone!! 

I think this whole thing with Grammerhero has gone to far!!!
Dgalati says he’s found another way to travel for less, is that to take free contracts with free usage along with receiving gift cards & never pay MFs letting the TS go into foreclosure after using his free usage & gift card??
Is that what TUG is endorsing & stooping to a new low??

Let’s wake up & find some morals here!!!!!!!!


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## bendadin (Dec 25, 2019)

Iggyearl said:


> The advice was to NOT stop paying maintenance fees, but to "morally" dispose of the unused timeshare.  Maybe offer it for free.  Pay next year's maintenance fees.  Pay the transfer fee.  Maybe throw in a gift card.  Do the "right thing."
> 
> Now it appears that doing the "right thing" hurts them and definitely benefits someone else.  If I was in the above described position, I think I would just stop paying maintenance fees.  No reason to give money to some "shrewd" Tug member.



I gave away two Wyndham contracts this year. I have three others (GD, PCB, and Bali Hai) that I would have given away but I got this garbage. "You have to pay closing and transfer on a free timeshare," from said person. And so, even though I was giving away really nice contracts (average $4.36/k MF) now I won't. Now I will keep them. The damage has been done.

So people ARE here on TUG to take advantage of all.

First, why give away when you can scam Wyndham with a little game (if your ethics allow this as mine do not.) And to be clear, there are two different games being played here. 
Secondly, it will continue to dry up the market for those who legitimately want to own and use a timeshare without purchasing retail. 

So this behavior is hurting TUG.


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> You make an excellent point.
> 
> Does TUG want to be known for advising owners “ TO NOT DO THE RIGHT THING”?? I hope not.
> There is always circumstances when owners have no other choice but to stop paying MFs.
> ...



Not knowing all the ins and outs of Wyndham, I can’t comment on their points systems. However, I know based on past posts from @Grammarhero, he demonstrates the highest of Ethical standards. He looks before he leaps. He checks his legal rights with impeccable approaches. He simply is best utilizing the points systems developed by Wyndham themselves. In my mind, it’s no different than having a coupon where you get maximum points if you spend 100 at a time so you do 3 100 dollar transactions instead of one to get the maximum benefit allowed. That is not illegal or immoral, just simply being clever.



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## Fredflintstone (Dec 25, 2019)

As for Wyndham, here is a link where you can see the current list of filed complaints:


https://dockets.justia.com/search?query=WYNDHAM+VACATION+RESORTS+INC&state=florida


https://www.classaction.org/news/wy...tive-and-misleading-timeshare-sales-practices

It looks like the dockets are filled with allegations of misrepresentation, fraud and abuse of the elderly.


https://dolanlawfirm.com/2016/11/wyndham-vacation-whistleblower-verdict/

I just find it humorous that one attacks an upstanding person like @Grammarhero who has chosen to help vulnerable persons in his practice over the large corporations. I can tell you, this is one fellow who has proven through his chosen practice specialty that he is of the highest caliber or ethics.

If there is a way to maximize your benefit, I say use it. If Wyndham believes they are being abused, I can promise you they will adjust the rules. Don’t worry, Wyndham will protect their interests, both legally and morally. Since they haven’t yet, what @Grammarhero is doing is perfectly fine. Once or if the adjustment from Wyndham happens, I am sure Grammarhero will follow their changed rules whatever they be because that’s the kind of person he is. So, please do not attack a person who demonstrates the highest of integrity.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

capital city said:


> I don't necessarily see it as wrong but it seems like a lot of work and requires perfect timing to beat Wyndham out of ~$5k? The only problem with it to me is that anytime someone abuses something like this Wyndham takes notice and makes rule changes. That's how we lost credit pool and how we got a crappy website shoved down our throat. They rushed the website hoping they could implement security features that were found and abused in the old system. Which is probably a big reason the functionality is so bad, their main focus was on stopping abuse of the system.


It takes great timing, but not a lot of work.  I just have to look for the Wyndham TS I want with free usage.  Given I use TUG 1.5 hrs daily, the work time is minimal.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> My first plan was to give away what I have, with a full year of points.  But, giving back to the resort might actually be easier.  I just want to know my options.  You interested in a nice points resort with reasonable MF's, for free?  If so, send me a PM.


Do try to deed back.  Maybe you can call the resort.  Tell them that you know FL is an anti-deficiency State.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> Yes to being deeded in Florida.  Resale contract, no mortgage.  Does 'do not object' mean ignore all attempts by the resort to reach me, just let them do what they do?
> 
> My plan is to offer my points week on the marketplace.  But, if it is not taken, just walking away seems like a reasonable alternative.
> 
> If a person knows what to do under the laws in Florida, would it not just be better for the resort to take the points week back and avoid all the costs associated with a foreclosure?  I'm looking for some leverage with the resort.


The “do not object” usually means do not fill out and return the objection form.  I wouldn’t put it pass the resort to present nasty phone call mistakenly as an objection though.


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 25, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> The “do not object” usually means do not fill out and return the objection form.  I wouldn’t put it pass the resort to present nasty phone call mistakenly as an objection though.



That’s right...In my case, the trustee sent an objection form. All I did was ignore it thus not objecting and 4 months later the non judicial foreclosure happened. From my experience, it appears the resort tries to encourage an objection based on the letters I received.


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## Braindead (Dec 25, 2019)

Deleted


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> Deleted



That’s good.  Let me reframe. I believe ALL developers and resorts will protect their interests both legally and morally. If they see a flaw in their systems, they have the right to adjust. Every contract I have read has a clause that they reserve the right to change any term at anytime.

So, if you find a benefit of any kind that enhances your usage; use it until or if they decide to change the terms. That is simply maximizing your experience and that’s both legal and morally correct.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Eric B (Dec 25, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> As for Wyndham, here is a link where you can see the current list of filed complaints:
> 
> 
> https://dockets.justia.com/search?query=WYNDHAM+VACATION+RESORTS+INC&state=florida
> ...



Nothing I've posted was intended as an attack; instead my intent was to provide more of a warning of likely action by Wyndham to protect their interests.  I'm all for maximizing the benefits of using the TS rules as they are set out; I don't feel, however, that it is a prudent to announce how you plan to take advantage of the rules in a public forum then return the contracts to the developer through a program they have control over.  We've all seen how the system reacts to perceived threats in the past; it had negative effects on the remainder of users vis-a-vis the changes to the credit pool/points for deposit and the removal of the loophole for cancel and rebook.  For better or worse, there are TUG users that have some investment in the VIP benefits that wind up losing out when something like this occurs; there is a relatively minor improvement in the circumstances for the individual taking advantage of the tragedy of the commons and another corresponding minor detriment to the rest of the community when the system reacts.  I applaud assisting the vulnerable against large corporations to the extent that we aren't talking about viking ships and things of that sort, of course.


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## Eric B (Dec 25, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> That’s good.  Let me reframe. I believe ALL developers and resorts will protect their interests both legally and morally. If they see a flaw in their systems, they have the right to adjust. Every contract I have read has a clause that they reserve the right to change any term at anytime.
> 
> So, if you find a benefit of any kind that enhances your usage; use it until or if they decide to change the terms. That is simply maximizing your experience and that’s both legal and morally correct.



Agreed; I would only add that you should shout about the benefits you've discovered from the hilltops only if you really want them to stop being benefits....


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## Braindead (Dec 25, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> That’s good.  Let me reframe. I believe ALL developers and resorts will protect their interests both legally and morally. If they see a flaw in their systems, they have the right to adjust. Every contract I have read has a clause that they reserve the right to change any term at anytime.
> 
> So, if you find a benefit of any kind that enhances your usage; use it until or if they decide to change the terms. That is simply maximizing your experience and that’s both legal and morally correct.


When you advise an owner to stop paying MFs no matter their financial position, how is that different than using a Viking Ship?? 
Both ethically & morally correct ??
Who does that hurt the Developers, owners or both developers & owners??


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 25, 2019)

Eric B said:


> Agreed; I would only add that you should shout about the benefits you've discovered from the hilltops only if you really want them to stop being benefits....



Yes, but I find actions speak louder than words. So, even if you don’t shout a benefit from the hilltops, the actions of a few may alert the resort/developer to make changes anyway.


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> When you advise an owner to stop paying MFs no matter their financial position, how is that different than using a Viking Ship??
> Both ethically & morally correct ??
> Who does that hurt the Developers, owners or both developers & owners??



It’s not advise...it’s simply my experience coupled with the timeshare laws afforded to me. Viking ship?  A Viking ship means you purposefully dump your timeshare unto an entity in efforts to dump the timeshare. That, is illegal and, in my view, immoral.

But, if you maintain your entity and simply utilize the state laws (as real property is state responsibility), you are doing nothing wrong. In my case, I had 9 timeshares. I sold 8 of them for a dollar and paid transfer. In 2 cases I paid a year ahead of MF. In the one case,  I tried unsuccessfully for 2 years to sell.  I had no luck. I called the resort to negotiate a deed back. They refused and proceeded to threaten me with legal consequences. I offered to pay 2 years MF and the transfer and they refused. So, AS LAST RESORT, I used the non judicial, anti deficiency Florida State laws to deal with it. It was all legal and moral in my mind as I tried very hard to sell the thing and was willing to negotiate with the resort. I should say, from my understanding from a connection, this resort now accepts deed backs. So, my actions, I believe, partly aided in helping owners stuck. 

I look at it this way. It is up to the resort to exert their legal rights and up to me to exert mine.   


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> As for Wyndham, here is a link where you can see the current list of filed complaints:
> 
> 
> https://dockets.justia.com/search?query=WYNDHAM+VACATION+RESORTS+INC&state=florida
> ...


Thanks for your moral support and defense.  I greatly appreciate it.


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## Braindead (Dec 25, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> But, if you maintain your entity and simply utilize the state laws (as real property is state responsibility), you are doing nothing wrong. In my case, I had 9 timeshares. I sold 8 of them for a dollar and paid transfer. In 2 cases I paid a year ahead of MF. In the one case,  I tried unsuccessfully for 2 years to sell.  I had no luck. I called the resort to negotiate a deed back. They refused and proceeded to threaten me with legal consequences. I offered to pay 2 years MF and the transfer and they refused. So, AS LAST RESORT, I used the non judicial, anti deficiency Florida State laws to deal with it.


I applaud your ethics & morals in “doing the right thing”.
You PAID 8 out of 9 times to rid yourself of the time TS
1 time “AS LAST RESORT” you used the Florida laws.

Why didn’t you just stop paying the MFs on all 9 to start with if the law states it was legal?? I’d say your ethics & morals didn’t allow you to.

You make my point, you did one as a last resort it seems the advice is the opposite is here on TUG. What state stop paying or if you don’t need a good credit score stop paying is the first advice given here on TUG.

Advice like dgalati or what Grammerhero stated possible here on TUG shouldn’t be tolerated. Illegal no but does that make it right?


----------



## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Deleted


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

@Braindead @bendadin @raygo123 you all seem inconsistent in excusing @ronparise for his large-scale “strip scheme,” but criticizing @dgalati for his small-scale “strip scheme” and me for my not yet executed “strip scheme.”  I haven’t even used my 2020 points yet.  I might even keep my GD.

It just seems inconsistent and unfair.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> I applaud your ethics & morals in “doing the right thing”.
> You PAID 8 out of 9 times to rid yourself of the time TS
> 1 time “AS LAST RESORT” you used the Florida laws.
> 
> ...


Wow.  Who died and made you the moral police?  If you haven’t criticized Ron Parise for similar actions, that is inconsistent.


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## Braindead (Dec 25, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> @Braindead @bendadin @raygo123 you all seem inconsistent in excusing @ronparise for his large-scale “strip scheme,” but criticizing @dgalati for his small-scale “strip scheme” and me for my not yet executed “strip scheme.”  I haven’t even used my 2020 points yet.  It just seems inconsistent and unfair.


I never excused Ron P, you better go back & search some post before you make accusations.
Ron took heat for ALL of us loosing the credit pool


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> I never excused Ron P, you better go back & search some post before you make accusations.
> Ron took heat for ALL of us loosing the credit pool


You said I couldn’t hold candle compared to Ron Parise.  I don’t need to look at your past posts.  You certainly didn’t look at mine.


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 25, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> It’s not advise...it’s simply my experience coupled with the timeshare laws afforded to me. Viking ship?  A Viking ship means you purposefully dump your timeshare unto an entity in efforts to dump the timeshare. That, is illegal and, in my view, immoral.
> 
> But, if you maintain your entity and simply utilize the state laws (as real property is state responsibility), you are doing nothing wrong. In my case, I had 9 timeshares. I sold 8 of them for a dollar and paid transfer. In 2 cases I paid a year ahead of MF. In the one case,  I tried unsuccessfully for 2 years to sell.  I had no luck. I called the resort to negotiate a deed back. They refused and proceeded to threaten me with legal consequences. I offered to pay 2 years MF and the transfer and they refused. So, AS LAST RESORT, I used the non judicial, anti deficiency Florida State laws to deal with it. It was all legal and moral in my mind as I tried very hard to sell the thing and was willing to negotiate with the resort. I should say, from my understanding from a connection, this resort now accepts deed backs. So, my actions, I believe, partly aided in helping owners stuck.
> 
> ...


I applaud your approach to this matter.  I reviewed a number of your other posts on the subject of deedback and you are consistent in your view on this matter.
1. have no loan
2. Try to give it away, with incentives, as needed
3. Try to give it back, again with incentives
4. Stop paying MF's, as a last resort.
You were also very clear in doing the right thing, acknowledging that going straight to step 4 can impact all owners.  Having been a neighborhood HOA treasurer, I can vouch for how painful it can be on the neighborhood when members of the HOA don't pay.  I don't want to be that guy in my neighborhood and don't really want to be that guy in the TS community.  In your case, it was obvious that you did not want to be 'that guy' either.  I applaud your approach to this matter.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> I never excused Ron P, you better go back & search some post before you make accusations.
> Ron took heat for ALL of us loosing the credit pool


If there’s anybody that should research before accusations, it’s @raygo123, who accused me of illegal or prohibited conduct without researching Florida laws.  Of course, you will excuse raygo’s conduct while criticizing me for not doing enough research.


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 25, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> You said I couldn’t hold candle compared to Ron Parise.  I don’t need to look at your past posts.  You certainly didn’t look at mine.


I was new to TUG at the time the Credit Pool was eliminated.  I listened to the almighty RP and held my breath from saying much as I was new.  While I can not fault him for doing what he did, I sure as hell can blame him for many of the changes since his scheme was discovered and stopped.  You do not want to be like RP, he was the TS god to some and the TS devil to others.  My fear is that what you are doing, legally, will come back to bite us via new and/or more rigid rules.


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## Jan M. (Dec 25, 2019)

I've skipped over reading every single response in this thread so I apologize in advance if someone else has already brought up some of what I'm posting.

Ovations doesn't take everything back; that much we do know. And what they are taking back has changed and will do so again in the future. The Star Island points stand the most chance of being the one that they won't take back. That is just a guess on my part.

At one time Ovations wasn't taking some?/anything? back unless it had the full use year points. Another guess on my part is that if you were wanting to give something back and waited until towards the end of the use year that would be okay because you would have paid almost the entire year's maintenance fees on those points.

All the contracts came through before the end of 2019. All with a January 1 use year? As I understand the hypothetical time line it goes like this.

2019 points. Not being VIP the best use of the points is to deposit them into RCI. Yes you will pay the current $239 exchange fee when you book a week with those points. I see a lot of you saying but that costs me extra money. Many owners get some great stays with their RCI deposits. A friend recently scored the week of April 4th, so checking out the day before Easter Sunday, at Disney World Animal Kingdom Lodge, Kidani Village, in a savanna view unit. At that resort the one bedroom units have two full bathrooms and sleep 5. So she deposited 105,000 points and paid the $239 exchange fee for a very prime week. We have stayed in those units several times and let me tell you that I will take that deal she got any time!

2020 points. Book and use

2021 points. Borrow during 2020 and use. Yes you can borrow and use an entire use year's points before that use year starts.

Give back through Ovations. Will ovations take those contracts/deeds back before the end of 2021 because there are no points available and the maintenance fees have not been paid on them? Btw that is the accepted definition of a stripped deed or contract. Two things come into play at this point. If it is early in 2021 it is in my opinion very doubtful that Ovations will take it back unless you are willing to pay $12 per thousand for those points. It would be cheaper to just keep paying the maintenance fees until the end of the year. That leads to the other issue. What does Grammarhero have that Wyndham really wants that would induce them to them to take it back at a disadvantage to them? Honestly, nothing. Both Star Island and Ocean Walk have high maintenance fees. Wyndham was at one point dumping a lot of those points into CWA because they were harder to sell. Take a look on eBay and look at what CWA contracts are selling for. Some of the listings are for close to half a million points to over 1M points. Wyndham can, and from what we've heard does, through another party pick up those points cheaply. His Grand Desert points are the best thing he has because of the lower maintenance fees. But again look at how many listings there are on eBay, TUG, Sumday Vacations, etc. for points at Grand Desert. For anyone wanting to investigate what I'm saying, right now there isn't a lot listed on eBay but you can get an idea from looking at the completed/sold listings. Right now is a buyers market because of the holidays and most people not having extra money to buy timeshares.

An excellent point that OP in this thread made is that free or cheap aren't always a good deal.

Fwiw I didn't think this was Grammarhero's actual plan. At least I hope not because I have to agree with others that it isn't likely to work out. I assumed that Grammarhero was just having some fun playing with the numbers and thinking about possibilities.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> I was new to TUG at the time the Credit Pool was eliminated.  I listened to the almighty RP and held my breath from saying much as I was new.  While I can not fault him for doing what he did, I sure as hell can blame him for many of the changes since his scheme was discovered and stopped.  You do not want to be like RP, he was the TS god to some and the TS devil to others.  My fear is that what you are doing, legally, will come back to bite us via new and/or more rigid rules.


I will definitely think about this one year and one month down the line.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> I've skipped over reading every single response in this thread so I apologize in advance if someone else has already brought up some of what I'm posting.
> 
> Ovations doesn't take everything back that much we do know. And what they are taking back has changed and will do so again in the future. The Star Island points stand the most chance of being the one that they won't take back. That is just a guess on my part.
> 
> ...


It wasn’t actually my plan at the outset.  Just a possibility in case life changes and my wife’s boss keeps torpedoing our Ts vacations.  Yes, I took Star Island, CWA, and Ocean Walk with one year free usage.  If Wyndham doesn’t take back, I at least got one year free usage and can be happy with that.  I actually like my GD very much.


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## bendadin (Dec 25, 2019)

.


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## Eric B (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> When you advise an owner to stop paying MFs no matter their financial position, how is that different than using a Viking Ship??
> Both ethically & morally correct ??
> Who does that hurt the Developers, owners or both developers & owners??



Don't forget the HOAs.  It costs something to foreclose and resell an ownership and the developer likely makes any profits off the resale, while the HOAs wind up covering the unpaid MFs, foreclosure cost, etc.  That should provide an incentive to take deedbacks, but doesn't always get acted upon because the costs are passed on to the MF paying owners while it doesn't really hurt the developer/sales folks.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

this thread made me realize my Wyndham actions may affect other Wyndham owners.  Thus, I will think carefully before any actions.

@SNA27 at one point, you thought that most tuggers supported Wyndham “strip schemes.”  This thread shows most tuggers are against “strip schemes.”  That should restore your faith in the tug community.


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 25, 2019)

Eric B said:


> Don't forget the HOAs.  It costs something to foreclose and resell an ownership and the developer likely makes any profits off the resale, while the HOAs wind up covering the unpaid MFs, foreclosure cost, etc.  That should provide an incentive to take deedbacks, but doesn't always get acted upon because the costs are passed on to the MF paying owners while it doesn't really hurt the developer/sales folks.



I Agree. You are right in that resorts are too easy to think the bills pass on to their owners so who cares? I could go on with my opinions on that topic but won’t in this post. 

I know some resorts charge 2 years of MF plus cost of deed back which I think is fair. That way, owners are least impacted. 

I applaud those resorts who accept deedbacks even at a cost to the owner who wants out.

There has to be ways for people to get out the right way. If they have no options, they turn to looking at Statute to see their other options that may or may not affect other owners.

Here’s a great blog by Finn Law Group on the dilemmas owners face and an opinion that deedbacks benefit everyone as well as foreclosures benefitting developers and resorts:


https://www.finnlawgroup.com/the-timeshare-foreclosure-fiasco/

@Grammarhero, you are welcome and deserving of my comments. You are a stand up guy with impeccable integrity. The legal work you have done here for free and the work you do in your practice to help those disabled or injured and vulnerable tells me what a great lawyer and person you are.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ecwinch (Dec 25, 2019)

MODERATOR NOTE

Just want to drop in with a moderator note, and remind everyone that while differences of opinion are certainly to be expected, that everyone is expected to ensure their posts conform to the rules that everyone agreed to when they joined this site. In particular:


*Be Courteous*

As we read and respond to others, disagreements are inevitable. Differing points of view are welcomed, and indeed the bbs would be a dull place without them. All users are expected and required to express their disagreements civilly. Refrain from name calling and behavior lectures. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and repeated offenses could get you banned from the bbs. Lively discussion is what the board is all about, but that is no excuse for boorish behavior or bad manners. We are assumed to all be adults. If you don't like a particular thread, stop reading it!

Now in the spirit of the holidays and being courteous, if certain members could review and self-edit some of their prior posts it would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you.


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## Braindead (Dec 25, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> I didn't think this was Grammarhero's actual plan. At least I hope not because I have to agree with others that it isn't likely to work out. I assumed that Grammarhero was just having some fun playing with the numbers and thinking about possibilities.





bendadin said:


> Credit pool was exploited by some.
> Credit pool gets shut down.
> Ovations gets exploited by some.
> Then what happens??
> ...





Grammarhero said:


> this thread made me realize my Wyndham actions may affect other Wyndham owners.  Thus, I will think carefully before any actions.
> 
> @SNA27 at one point, you thought that most tuggers supported Wyndham “strip schemes.”  This thread shows most tuggers are against “strip schemes.”  That should restore your faith in the tug community.


All of you touch on what I think is wrong with this whole thread.
What starts out looking so innocent turns into a exploitation used by many that gets out of hand like the credit pool did.
I don’t think many here realize how many read TUG that never post.
What looks isolated that 1 or 2 owners are doing or thinking of doing is picked up by many that didn’t post in this thread.

So what happens now:
We all complain on how long it takes resell contracts to transfer.
Now this Ovation exploitation might add months to the Ovations process. That only hurts the owners wanting out for the right reasons.
Is Wyndham going to have to start researching an owners account that wants to use Ovations?

Grammerhero you use the word scheme, are schemes legal or within the rules? Yes most of the time.
But when those schemes are shut down are the ramifications—rule changes that effect all of us worth it ? No
How many thousands of TS owners stop paying MFs due to what they read in your post? We don’t know

Is TUG the place for schemes?? I don’t think it should be
Knowledge doesn’t have to be used to scheme or exploit


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 25, 2019)

ecwinch said:


> MODERATOR NOTE
> 
> Just want to drop in with a moderator note, and remind everyone that while differences of opinion are certainly to be expected, that everyone is expected to ensure their posts conform to the rules that everyone agreed to when they joined this site. In particular:
> 
> ...



Moderator, IMO, this thread should be closed. Thank you. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> All of you touch on what I think is wrong with this whole thread.
> What starts out looking so innocent turns into a exploitation used by many that gets out of hand like the credit pool did.
> I don’t think many here realize how many read TUG that never post.
> What looks isolated that 1 or 2 owners are doing or thinking of doing is picked up by many that didn’t post in this thread.
> ...


I never advocated not paying MF unless as a last resort.  If Wyndham bans my booking privileges, then of course I would stop paying MF.  I’m not getting the usage to which I was originally entitled, with Wyndham originally breaking the TS contract.

Many of your concerns are speculative.  Nothing has happened yet, and I haven’t even used 2020 points yet!   I do feel a lot of your anger is misplaced.  You are angry at Ron Parise for the torpedoed credit pool.  Fine, but no need to misplace that anger at me.

And what of the three retail owners I guided through the Wyndham LE program for free?  Wyndham didn’t even tell them about the three years free usage.  I had to tell them about it.


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## Braindead (Dec 25, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> I never advocated not paying MF unless as a last resort.  If Wyndham bans my booking privileges, then of course I would stop paying MF.  I’m not getting the usage to which I was originally entitled, with Wyndham originally breaking the TS contract.
> 
> Many of your concerns are speculative.  Nothing has happened yet, and I haven’t even used 2020 points yet!   I do feel a lot of your anger is misplaced.  You are angry at Ron Parise for the torpedoed credit pool.  Fine, but no need to misplace that anger at me.
> 
> And what of the three retail owners I guided through the Wyndham LE program for free?  Wyndham didn’t even tell them about the three years free usage.  I had to tell them about it.


I’m not specifically talking about Wyndham, I’m talking all TS owners


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> I’m not specifically talking about Wyndham, I’m talking all TS owners


Okay.  So blaming me for an alleged scheme that @raygo123 says is not new and has been going on for years?  That means other TS owners and Wyndham have already thought about them. 

So how do I get the blame from you for what others TS owners have already thought, via raygo?  Seems like you blame me for a lot, including a lot of things outside my control.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> All of you touch on what I think is wrong with this whole thread.
> What starts out looking so innocent turns into a exploitation used by many that gets out of hand like the credit pool did.
> I don’t think many here realize how many read TUG that never post.
> What looks isolated that 1 or 2 owners are doing or thinking of doing is picked up by many that didn’t post in this thread.
> ...


Wow.  I’m now being blamed for thousands of TS owners not paying MF.  That is non-sensical.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Iggyearl said:


> This thread is Sooo... entertaining.  There are many previous posts with advice to disappointed retail timeshare owners.  People who didn't know about the rescission period.  Couldn't reserve at 6 mos.  Had maintenance fees rise.  A change in health.  Lost a spouse.  These people just wanted to get out of their timeshare without a hassle.
> 
> The advice was to NOT stop paying maintenance fees, but to "morally" dispose of the unused timeshare.  Maybe offer it for free.  Pay next year's maintenance fees.  Pay the transfer fee.  Maybe throw in a gift card.  Do the "right thing."
> 
> Now it appears that doing the "right thing" hurts them and definitely benefits someone else.  If I was in the above described position, I think I would just stop paying maintenance fees.  No reason to give money to some "shrewd" Tug member.


Morals aside about not burdening other Ts owners, the 50-75 FICO pt slide is important.  For free, I helped a widow through her home loan mod.  She lost 50 FICO pts from a TS foreclosure.  She did write an addendum to the credit report.

I learned from the home loan mod vendor that had she not foreclosed, her interest rate would have been 0.13 lower or worth about $2k.  That 50-75 pt slide is nothing to take lightly.  Had she just deeded back even at $1k lost, that would have been financially better.


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## Jan M. (Dec 25, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> It wasn’t actually my plan at the outset.  Just a possibility in case life changes and my wife’s boss keeps torpedoing our Ts vacations.  Yes, I took Star Island, CWA, and Ocean Walk with one year free usage.  If Wyndham doesn’t take back, I at least got one year free usage and can be happy with that.  I actually like my GD very much.



We own at 308,000 points at Grand Desert. I often recommend buying there to people looking to buy more points and newbies.

So take your kids and go on ahead if your wife can get away for at least part of the stay. One of the nice things about having points is you can schedule your stays around the dates you find cheap flights. If you don't belong to the Facebook group Wyndham Owners Helping Owners then ask to join. Ask what resorts other people recommend for younger kids.

When I was working I was the one with the work schedule we had to work around. We learned to make it work. When we moved to Florida it was for my husband to take a new job and he had to start over with a lot less vacation than he previously had. I didn't go back to work so now our situations were reversed. From the age of 62-66 I packed up the car and drove to Orlando or Sanibel Island or back home with our granddaughter who was 2-6. My husband joined us for part of the stays if he wasn't able to come for the entire stay. 

I mentioned staying at Star Island to you and staying in building 25 because of it's proximity to the playground, mini golf and pool. It is an easy resort and building to be in with younger children. This is a big deal when you are by yourself with a younger child or children. The playground is a nice one and when they have lots of energy and you need a break it's so nice be able to just walk out of our building to the playground and sit on a bench while they play. Another reason my husband and I like this resort for our granddaughters is that the pool isn't as crowded as Bonnet Creek. My husband always seems to find a dad or another grandfather to talk to while they stand there watching the kids play together in the pool or splash pad.

We also like Star Island because it is close to a number of restaurants. Some restaurants are much easier than others to eat at when you are by yourself with kids or even when you have two adults! The Golden Corrals in Orlando are good ones and offer good, healthy food choices. While my husband and I care about the healthy food choices that isn't why our granddaughters look forward to eating there. Yes they have Golden Corrals not far from where they live but they are horrible. The Golden Corral in Orlando that we eat at makes cotton candy and have it in bags. We get our bags right away to make sure they don't run out; learned that the hard way. However the bags of cotton candy go back to the resort with us for a treat or movie night later. They also have a chocolate fountain. The girls have to wait to go to the chocolate fountain until Grandma is done eating. Since Grandma gets the girls plates ready first and Grandma is purposely a slow eater it's surprising how much more they can be convinced to eat while they are waiting. I recommend using a bib for the chocolate fountain treats. The 8 year old is tall enough to do her own strawberries and marshmallows in the chocolate fountain with supervision and I pick the 3 year old up and guide her hand to do hers. I try to sit at a table close to the desert bar. The visual reminder of the treat you get when you do a good job of eating your meal works very well to motivate them. Plus I never rush them through desert just in case they would have room for one more chocolate covered strawberry. Our other meal tradition with the girls is Amore Monday at Carrabbas. I order the fettuccine weesie that has shrimp in it because the oldest granddaughter loves it and she loves salad too. I also order one kids meal, the grilled chicken and steamed broccoli. The girls and I share the salad and when our meals come I divide everything up so we all have some of everything. Although by choice I get most of the grilled chicken and not much of the fettuccine with alfredo sauce. With the Amore Monday meals you get either an appetizer or a desert. I order the John Cole for desert. It's vanilla ice cream with caramel sauce and sugared pecans. I put some on a plate for the 3 year old and the 8 year old and I share the dish it comes in. She accuses me of hogging the caramel sauce and I tell her that I'm counting how many of the nuts she's had to make sure I get my share. Neither of which is true but is still something we do and laugh about every time we eat there. Special treats and favorite meals on vacations will also build memories.

Ocean Walk is another resort that is very kid friendly. The kid's water play area is fun. The beach is flat and firmer for the kids to play in the sand. Little kids aren't great about walking through loose sand and not having to carry them and their beach toys through the loose sand is less work for the adults. Because the resort is so tall it shades the beach in the late afternoon/early evening. So no need to sunscreen everyone up. We try to eat a little earlier and let the granddaughters have time to play in the sand before bedtime. It wears them out nicely. There is indoor mini golf at Ocean Walk and there is a little kid's play room.


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## paxsarah (Dec 25, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> 3. Why not just get the 4th year, also. You could borrow the 2022 points and use them in Jan/Feb 2021.



Wyndham will not complete an Ovation process without future years’ points accounted for. This was part of the requirements when I used Ovation earlier this year: “*Point’s usage*: Future year’s points must be unused or reservation must be canceled or point rental option is also available.”

So if Ovation was started in 2021, 2022 points would need to be available or paid for if already used.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 25, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> We own at 308,000 points at Grand Desert. I often recommend buying there to people looking to buy more points and newbies.
> 
> So take your kids and go on ahead if your wife can get away for at least part of the stay. One of the nice things about having points is you can schedule your stays around the dates you find cheap flights. If you don't belong to the Facebook group Wyndham Owners Helping Owners then ask to join. Ask what resorts other people recommend for younger kids.
> 
> ...


Thanks for letting me know.  I screen shot this for upcoming trips.


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## CO skier (Dec 25, 2019)

Braindead said:


> I never excused Ron P, you better go back & search some post before you make accusations.


The following searched quote is from the context of cancel/rebook, and before Wyndham put the hammer down on that and stripped contracts in 2017, and _then _a number of people became enlightened and change their opinions, but still



Braindead said:


> I have to back Ron & other renters on this they are NOT scammers. I have never read a post where they advocate or do anything outside of the program guidelines Wyndham set up. They simply understand the system and use it to full advantage . Then they turn around and share that knowledge with the rest of us . They should be applauded for this .Wyndham might make some changes after they get get their eyes opened wide on what the current system allows. You may like the changes Wyndham makes in the future. But call Ron and other scammers is totally off base



https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...ew-email-accts-suspended.245656/#post-1920405

So, according to the Braindead standards ...

Did the OP " advocate or do anything outside of the program guidelines Wyndham set up?"

Did the OP "simply understand the system and use it to full advantage?"

Did the OP "share that knowledge with the rest of us?"

Should the OP be "applauded for this [sharing of knowledge]?"


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## CO skier (Dec 25, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> I was new to TUG at the time the Credit Pool was eliminated.  I listened to the almighty RP and held my breath from saying much as I was new.  While I can not fault him for doing what he did, I sure as hell can blame him for many of the changes since his scheme was discovered and stopped.  You do not want to be like RP, he was the TS god to some and the TS devil to others.


Once again, the following quoted post pre-dates the restrictions put in place by Wyndham on the credit pool, and when many including RP, became enlightened and changed their opinions, but he did kind of ask for the blame.



ronparise said:


> They understand now, I assure you... My bet is that Voyager was ready to go months ago, but they had to add some features to address the things they learned after talking to some of us suspendees. If there is a wait list or anything to restrict cancel and rebook, you can probably thank me and the others
> 
> sorry



https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...l-accts-suspended.245656/page-71#post-1992647​


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## CO skier (Dec 25, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> My fear is that what you are doing, legally, will come back to bite us via new and/or more rigid rules.





bendadin said:


> Credit pool was exploited by some.
> Credit pool gets shut down.
> Ovations gets exploited by some.
> Then what happens??



If Wyndham has not already done so, they accept only deeds with the full Use Year of points available into the Ovation Program.  Simple.

The Ovation program is completely different from Club Wyndham rules, and it has nothing to do with the upcoming Privileges VIP program.  Wyndham can change in any way, or cease the Ovation program altogether at any time.

I think the Ovation program is here to stay, but it has a budget for deedbacks, and the program will expand or contract as that budget is spent.


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## raygo123 (Dec 25, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> If there’s anybody that should research before accusations, it’s @raygo123, who accused me of illegal or prohibited conduct without researching Florida laws.  Of course, you will excuse raygo’s conduct while criticizing me for not doing enough research.


No I didn't accuse you of anything.  It's not the real estate laws that matter. That's as easy as giving back a house you bought last year.  Your breaking the club rules.  As far as Ovations your completely at Wyndham's whims.  F Lee Bailey couldn't even help you 
As soon as Wyndham pushed the button to see there are no points attached for the use year your busted.  But don't worry it will never get that far as Wyndham, has not changed the law, but have the rules.  In which all your degrees are rendered useless.all you have to do is try it.  All your degrees and research are mute.  Is that the right word, mute. Like useless?  You have to consider what you don't know rather than what you do know.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


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## CO skier (Dec 25, 2019)

This thread is déjà vu all over again versus another recent TUG thread.

Sellers set the terms of their offer for a timeshare sale and many other items.  Potential buyers choose to accept those terms or not, maybe negotiate.

They are somewhat rare, but there are Wyndham deeds that will sell and transfer before the end of the Use Year with all points available.  The seller set the terms.

Ovation is different.  Wyndham offers to accept deedbacks at no cost to the seller.  In this case, the buyer sets the terms of the transfer.  Sellers may choose to accept the terms, or not.  Wyndham may limit or withdraw their Ovation program at any time and re-instate it later.

There is much speculation about the terms of Ovation, because few details are available in writing.  I thought that Ovation started requiring the current years points to be available in order to complete an Ovation transfer after Wyndham got burned by some megarenters.  Recently, there are unconfirmed reports from one individual that this is not the case.  Ovation is a black box.  Who knows?  Only Wyndham, and that may change from time to time.

Whether a deed will be accepted back by Wyndham through Ovation, or not, is a risk any future premeditated Ovationite will have to accept; there is definitely no guarantee that Ovation will accept any particular deed.

With all this in mind, I do not understand the fulmination in this thread.  It is just buyers and sellers meeting on their terms over timeshare contracts that have no value or negative value, like toooo many other timeshares.

I do not know why I was on the OP cc: list, but my opinion is that the sellers of the Wyndham deeds that transferred in November and December are likely delighted to be free from their maintenance fee obligations.  Happy sellers; happy buyer.  Now the deeds are the buyer’s millstones, and Wyndham will manage the Ovation program in any way they see fit.

Merry Christmas, and to all a good night.


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## capital city (Dec 25, 2019)

Seems pretty simple to me

1. You should look to buy towards the end of the use year to obtain "free" points. We all should know this already.
2. You should look to get rid of points at the beginning of a use year and possibly use that years points first. We should all know this already
3. Dont abuse those practices and plan to do BOTH from the beginning within just a couple of years. We all should know this already

All agree?


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> @Braindead @bendadin @raygo123 you all seem inconsistent in excusing @ronparise for his large-scale “strip scheme,” but criticizing @dgalati for his small-scale “strip scheme” and me for my not yet executed “strip scheme.”  I haven’t even used my 2020 points yet.  I might even keep my GD.
> 
> It just seems inconsistent and unfair.


No strip scheme going on. Just a owner using points available to their advantage. No different then a VIP buying millions of resale points and using the resale points to their advantage with a VIP 50% discount. Many VIP owners talk about morals and ethics and were  coached by Wyndham sales to use or abuse the cancel/rebook loophole to their advantage. Now they openly brag about being able to take advantage and abuse the loophole of using millions of resale points as VIP a benefit. How long do you think it will take before Wyndham puts a end to this loophole?


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## Grammarhero (Dec 26, 2019)

@Braindead loses most, if not all, of his/her moral credibility and high ground in condemning me for a potential, isolated strip operation, but excusing and defending Ron Parise for his large-scale strip operation.

@Braindead’s claim that I am somehow responsible for thousands of TS owners not paying MF is non-sensical.  Really? Worse yet, he/she is making such claim without research, but at the same time demanding I research in claiming he/she is consistent.

I guess braindead is comfortable with double standards.


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> @Braindead loses most, if not all, of his/her moral credibility and high ground in condemning me for a potential, isolated strip operation, but excusing and defending Ron Parise for his large-scale strip operation.
> 
> @Braindead’s claim that I am somehow responsible for thousands of TS owners not paying MF is non-sensical.  Really? Worse yet, he/she is making such claim without research, but at the same time demanding I research in claiming he/she is consistent.
> 
> I guess braindead is comfortable with double standards.


I wonder if BD ever took advantage of the so called loophole of cancel/rebook . Many VIP owners took advantage of this loophole and morals and ethics were not a concern to them when they used the system to their advantage.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 26, 2019)

@bendadin @raygo123 did you ever use the cancel/rebook loophole?


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## bestpal38 (Dec 26, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> @bendadin @raygo123 did you ever cancel/rebook?


I cancel and rebook now. I just make sure I book, before I cancel. Do it all the time. I book what I need, then I keep an eye out at 60 days for the points to drop, and as long as there is availability, I can book a room, then cancel the higher point room. I don't see a problem with this.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 26, 2019)

bestpal38 said:


> I cancel and rebook now. I just make sure I book, before I cancel. Do it all the time. I book what I need, then I keep an eye out at 60 days for the points to drop, and as long as there is availability, I can book a room, then cancel the higher point room. I don't see a problem with this.


We are referring to the old credit pool cancel/rebook.  Unless I’m wrong, peeps would first book using current and next year points, then cancel for which next year points accelerate to current year, and finally rebook.  Some people then sold or deeded back the stripped contract without next year’s points.


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## raygo123 (Dec 26, 2019)

It is unfortunate that you feel everyone is acusing you. When I and others were trying to explain that this has been tried, worked for a while until Wyndham changed the rules. Instead of accepting what has been said wrong or right, you challenged, you took as an attack instead. Instead of taking the example that Ron has been there done that, you felt personally attacked. Calm down. Accept the information as trying to help you from taking a course of action that has been done, quite successfully but that the "club rules" have been changed. That there are BOTH club rules as well as the real estate law. It doesn't matter what state or the laws for each. The real estate laws has nothing to do with Wyndham. It is other owners that makes up the HOA. That is who you will be dealing with if you choose to default, Wyndham has no skin in the game when it comes to forclosure . It's the owners like me and you who are harmed. Wyndham is a management company that also runs an exchange club just like RCI. YOU VOLUNTARILY JOIN club Wyndham. If you don't like the rules you should not have joined. 

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


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## bendadin (Dec 26, 2019)

.


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## bendadin (Dec 26, 2019)

.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 26, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> It is unfortunate that you feel everyone is acusing you. When I and others were trying to explain that this has been tried, worked for a while until Wyndham changed the rules. Instead of accepting what has been said wrong or right, you challenged, you took as an attack instead. Instead of taking the example that Ron has been there done that, you felt personally attacked. Calm down. Accept the information as trying to help you from taking a course of action that has been done, quite successfully but that the "club rules" have been changed. That there are BOTH club rules as well as the real estate law. It doesn't matter what state or the laws for each. The real estate laws has nothing to do with Wyndham. It is other owners that makes up the HOA. That is who you will be dealing with if you choose to default, Wyndham has no skin in the game when it comes to forclosure . It's the owners like me and you who are harmed. Wyndham is a management company that also runs an exchange club just like RCI. YOU VOLUNTARILY JOIN club Wyndham. If you don't like the rules you should not have joined.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



I don't feel everyone is accusing me, just you and @Braindead, who now says I'm somehow responsible for thousands of TS owners not paying MF.  I thank and respect @bendadin and @Eric B being fair and consistent in criticizing my potential Wyndham use strategy.

For gosh's sake, a mod posted reminding folks not to make personal attacks or behavior lectures.  @Braindead is certainly guilty of both.  Worse yet, he/she has inconsistently excused and defended Ron Parise for his large-scale, strip operations.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 26, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> Not in your case.  If they were dead they would be rolling over in their graves.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


So, how was this your trying to provide helpful information?


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## Grammarhero (Dec 26, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> Heros?  Not paying fees? Have you heard of "collection agencies?  You have a bad case of deniability.  So far other long term owners have not chimed in.  This idea is not new, and you are too new to have history on your side.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


So, how was this your trying to provide helpful information?


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## Grammarhero (Dec 26, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> It is most difficult to tell a person they are wrong when they know they are right.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


So, how was this your trying to provide helpful information?


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## raygo123 (Dec 26, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> So, how was this your trying to provide helpful information?





Grammarhero said:


> So, how was this your trying to provide helpful information?





Grammarhero said:


> So, how was this your trying to provide helpful information?


You should not have previously said i was talking out of my butt. You became so entrenched with your research that you focused on consequences. You would not realize you are not dealing with consequences of the law but the rules of the club. You were right but your wrong. 

Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk


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## Grammarhero (Dec 26, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> You should not have previously said i was talking out of my butt. You became so entrenched with your research that you focused on consequences. You would not realize you are not dealing with consequences of the law but the rules of the club. You were right but your wrong.
> 
> Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk



You should not have said my conduct was probably an illegal real estate transaction.  Those are strong accusations.  Those posts belie your claims of sincerely providing "helpful" Wyndham advice.  

You say it's unfortunate that I took what you said as a personal attack, but can you really blame me?


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## samara64 (Dec 26, 2019)

I may have misunderstood this. After you give the deed back to Wyndham, do they give you 3 extra years of usage for free.

If not, then Wyndham can do nothing.


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## Eric B (Dec 26, 2019)

samara64 said:


> I may have misunderstood this. After you give the deed back to Wyndham, do they give you 3 extra years of usage for free.
> 
> If not, then Wyndham can do nothing.



If you are using Ovations to divest a Wyndham contract that is eligible for the Limited Edition Ovations program and you have specifically asked for it, Wyndham has the option of giving you 3 years of points free.  There isn't any guarantee that what you have will be acceptable and the program could change in the future; the key is that you have to ask for it, though - if you don't they will likely not offer it even for a contract that would have been eligible.

The gist of the remainder of this thread has been on the benefit of using Ovations or otherwise disposing of an obligation to continue to pay the fees for a year in which you have already used up the points for that year, possible by borrowing the points from a future year without ever having paid for them.  Seems like a theoretical way to get the most vacation for the least outlay, but Wyndham controls when and what they would take through Ovations and under what terms so there isn't much to it that isn't hypothetical IMHO.  The discussion also touched on the benefits of acquiring a points-based TS late in the year so that you can use the points without having to pay for them either, similar to how folks agree to provide a free usage when transferring any TS.

In any case, Wyndham can also control the timeframe in which it executes a transfer on the resort contract side, which would affect who Wyndham bills when the divestiture is not to them.  It wouldn't, of course, affect any agreement terms in which a seller and a buyer decide who pays when, but the only time I could see a buyer agreeing to pay the seller's usage would be for a contract that has low MFs or is otherwise valuable.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 26, 2019)

Eric B said:


> If you are using Ovations to divest a Wyndham contract that is eligible for the Limited Edition Ovations program and you have specifically asked for it, Wyndham has the option of giving you 3 years of points free.  There isn't any guarantee that what you have will be acceptable and the program could change in the future; the key is that you have to ask for it, though - if you don't they will likely not offer it even for a contract that would have been eligible.
> 
> The gist of the remainder of this thread has been on the benefit of using Ovations or otherwise disposing of an obligation to continue to pay the fees for a year in which you have already used up the points for that year, possible by borrowing the points from a future year without ever having paid for them.  Seems like a theoretical way to get the most vacation for the least outlay, but Wyndham controls when and what they would take through Ovations and under what terms so there isn't much to it that isn't hypothetical IMHO.  The discussion also touched on the benefits of acquiring a points-based TS late in the year so that you can use the points without having to pay for them either, similar to how folks agree to provide a free usage when transferring any TS.


I thank and respect you for being fair and consistent to me, although we have not always agreed.


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## Eric B (Dec 26, 2019)

WRT Ovations, apparently Wyndham already includes terms in the program to prevent MF avoidance either through cancellation of future reservations that would use the points or rental of points to zero out the balance on a contract before they will accept it.


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## raygo123 (Dec 26, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> You should not have previously said i was talking out of my butt. You became so entrenched with your research that you focused on consequences. You would not realize you are not dealing with consequences of the law but the rules of the club. You were right but your wrong.
> 
> Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk


You said you would deposit 2019 points into RCI. You do know when you deposit 210,000 points Wyndham deposits 378,000 points into your RCI account? Thats just about 44% more points. It's a VIP benefit for gold + RCI has nightly stays. You said you subsidize points with your sons work schedule. Does he travel to cities RCI has resorts?

Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk


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## Grammarhero (Dec 26, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> You said you would deposit 2019 points into RCI. You do know when you deposit 210,000 points Wyndham deposits 378,000 points into your RCI account? Thats just about 44% more points. It's a VIP benefit for gold + RCI has nightly stays. You said you subsidize points with your sons work schedule. Does he travel to cities RCI has resorts?
> 
> Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk


I think you are confusing me with @SNA27, who is sincerely against any strip operations.  SNA27 and I started off on the wrong foot, but we began to like and respect each other despite our differences.


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## raygo123 (Dec 26, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> You should not have said my conduct was probably an illegal real estate transaction. Those are strong accusations. Those posts belie your claims of sincerely providing "helpful" Wyndham advice.
> 
> You say it's unfortunate that I took what you said as a personal attack, but can you really blame me?


Im not going there. 

Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk


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## Eric B (Dec 26, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> I thank and respect you for being fair and consistent to me, although we have not always agreed.


 
Thanks for that, @Grammarhero.  I just come here to learn from the community and to share what I've learned.  I appreciate the knowledge that you've contributed and value your participation in the discussion whether or not we agree on everything.


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> Wyndham will not complete an Ovation process without future years’ points accounted for. This was part of the requirements when I used Ovation earlier this year: “*Point’s usage*: Future year’s points must be unused or reservation must be canceled or point rental option is also available.”
> 
> So if Ovation was started in 2021, 2022 points would need to be available or paid for if already used.


@paxsarah you are correct. Unfortunately many don't know Wyndham already has in place rules preventing the stripping of deeds.  Ovations will not take back deeds without future use year points available unless you pay $12/1000 on any future use year points not available. Wyndham will not transfer ownership on a private sale without future use year points but Wyndham will  transfer ownership without current use year points  even if seller used all points and has no reservations to cancel.  The intent of this policy was to prevent a buyer from not receiving points that were promised or a buyer receiving a stripped deed. This new policy also creates a negative balance for seller on a private sale. This negative balance in the past two years zeroed out at the beginning of the next use year but beginning in 2020 Wyndham will start charging $12/1000 on any negative balances. This policy was intended to limit traders of deeds (buying, using all points then selling with no current use year points) This policy also helps Wyndham take back deeds with Ovations if a owner can use current use year points before returning to Wyndham with ovations. Wyndham was taking back deeds this summer through Ovations allowing owners to use current use year points. Wyndham allowed owners to use current use year points in exchange for Wyndham receiving a deed that can be resold at $200/1000. Wyndham told me this summer no negative balance would be created when giving back through Ovations when no current use year points are available. Since Ovations is a moving target and it is done on a case by case basis all of the above can and will be changed to suit Wyndham at time of requesting the Ovation exit strategy.
@Grammarhero
Wyndham Ovations acceptance letter with all stipulations. Pease note no reference to use of current use year points.

This email is to recap that you are voluntarily agreeing to participate in the Ovation by Wyndham program and understand and agree to the following requirements as we discussed today.

*Maintenance Fee*: Must be and stay current until process is complete. Any paid fees are not refundable.

*Documentation to return inventory:* You understand that you will receive by email/mail documentation to return your inventory within 8-10 weeks. These documents must be signed, notarized, and returned within the number of days indicated on the documentation. Please keep in mind the sooner the documentation is returned the earlier the process may be completed. Once the document is received, it may take within 6-8 weeks for documents to be approved and the cancellation to be completed.

*Third Party Company Assistance:* You understand that retaining counsel or third party company to assist with the Ovation program may disqualify your application.

*Title Issues*:  Discrepancies with owner recorded transfer deeds, issues with chain of title, missing documentation needed to record with deed to return inventory, proof of name changes, estate matters etc. and other changes that were not received by Wyndham Title department, may delay the process until proper documentation is received.

*Ownership:*  You must own contract for at least 12 months

*Third Party Financial Institution*: Any portion of loan paid using a credit card or any other financial institution (PayPal, bank loan, mortgage equity or other) is of sole responsibility of owner accepting an Ovation option.

*Reservations*: All reservations will be canceled and points forfeited. You will be able to keep any secured reservation paid with Resort Condominium International (RCI).

*New Travel reservations during Ovation process: In the event that you book a reservation during this process your request to return your inventory may be cancelled.   *In case you use your points/credits with Wyndham Destinations or one of its business partners (Travel, RCI, and others) during the process, your cancelation may be interrupted and you will have to wait until the next use year to participate in the Ovation program, once all points are available.

*Point’s/Credit usage*: Future year’s points/credits must be unused or reservation must be canceled or point rental option is also available.

*Multiple contracts*: One acknowledgement per contract is required and must be returned.

*Ovation by Wyndham offer*: Program and inventory acceptance may change without notice. Any changes in the program, will not impact a case that is in process.


Kind Regards,


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

@raygo123  You still offering 3-1 odds that Wyndham will not pay anything for a resale deed?


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 26, 2019)

A question:

If you exercise Ovations, are you banned from Wyndham from purchasing any future intervals?

I think I read that somewhere but could be wrong. 




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

bestpal38 said:


> I cancel and rebook now. I just make sure I book, before I cancel. Do it all the time. I book what I need, then I keep an eye out at 60 days for the points to drop, and as long as there is availability, I can book a room, then cancel the higher point room. I don't see a problem with this.


This would be considered Book, rebook, then cancel. Is this a strategy to use your ownership to your advantage? Or as some have accused others of are you taking advantage and abusing a loophole in the system for personal gain?


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> A question:
> 
> If you exercise Ovations, are you banned from Wyndham from purchasing any future intervals?
> 
> ...


I have heard that also bu not sure if it has any truth to it. Many are still owners that have used Ovations and have bought additional Ownership through developer and resale after Ovations.


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## paxsarah (Dec 26, 2019)

I think if someone Ovates some but not all of their contracts, they can buy again. Also, I’m pretty sure if someone Ovates their entire account and receives three years of Limited Edition use, they cannot buy again. What I’m not sure we know is whether if someone uses Ovations to get rid of all of their contracts without any free usage, if they could purchase again later.


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## Eric B (Dec 26, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> A question:
> 
> If you exercise Ovations, are you banned from Wyndham from purchasing any future intervals?
> 
> I think I read that somewhere but could be wrong.



I've seen that in eBay listings for WorldMark accounts, but not all of them.  One that's there now says the following:

*If you were a previous Wyndham or WorldMark owner and have gone through their Ovations program, you will not be eligible to own another timeshare from them per Wyndham/WorldMark.*


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

Eric B said:


> I've seen that in eBay listings for WorldMark accounts, but not all of them.  One that's there now says the following:
> 
> *If you were a previous Wyndham or WorldMark owner and have gone through their Ovations program, you will not be eligible to own another timeshare from them per Wyndham/WorldMark.*


No reference to not being able to own again in the Wyndham Ovations acceptance letter for a resale owner receiving no 3 years of free use.


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## Jan M. (Dec 26, 2019)

dgalati said:


> @paxsarah you are correct. Unfortunately many don't know Wyndham already has in place rules preventing the stripping of deeds.  Ovations will not take back deeds without future use year points available unless you pay $12/1000 on any future use year points not available. Wyndham will not transfer ownership on a private sale without future use year points but Wyndham will  transfer ownership without current use year points  even if seller used all points and has no reservations to cancel.  The intent of this policy was to prevent a buyer from not receiving points that were promised or a buyer receiving a stripped deed. This new policy also creates a negative balance for seller on a private sale. This negative balance in the past two years zeroed out at the beginning of the next use year but beginning in 2020 Wyndham will start charging $12/1000 on any negative balances. This policy was intended to limit traders of deeds (buying, using all points then selling with no current use year points) This policy also helps Wyndham take back deeds with Ovations if a owner can use current use year points before returning to Wyndham with ovations. Wyndham was taking back deeds this summer through Ovations allowing owners to use current use year points. Wyndham allowed owners to use current use year points in exchange for Wyndham receiving a deed that can be resold at $200/1000. Wyndham told me this summer no negative balance would be created when giving back through Ovations when no current use year points are available. Since Ovations is a moving target and it is done on a case by case basis all of the above can and will be changed to suit Wyndham at time of requesting the Ovation exit strategy.
> @Grammarhero
> Wyndham Ovations acceptance letter with all stipulations. Pease note no reference to use of current use year points.
> 
> ...



Thank you for posting this; it is helpful information for all of us to have. It would be a very good idea to copy and paste this into a new thread titled "Ovations" so it would be easy to find when anyone is looking for this information.


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> Thank you for posting this; it is helpful information for all of us to have. It would be a very good idea to copy and paste this into a new thread titled "Ovations" so it would be easy to find when anyone is looking for this information.


Will do Jan.


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## samara64 (Dec 26, 2019)

Eric B said:


> If you are using Ovations to divest a Wyndham contract that is eligible for the Limited Edition Ovations program and you have specifically asked for it, Wyndham has the option of giving you 3 years of points free.  There isn't any guarantee that what you have will be acceptable and the program could change in the future; the key is that you have to ask for it, though - if you don't they will likely not offer it even for a contract that would have been eligible.
> 
> The gist of the remainder of this thread has been on the benefit of using Ovations or otherwise disposing of an obligation to continue to pay the fees for a year in which you have already used up the points for that year, possible by borrowing the points from a future year without ever having paid for them.  Seems like a theoretical way to get the most vacation for the least outlay, but Wyndham controls when and what they would take through Ovations and under what terms so there isn't much to it that isn't hypothetical IMHO.  The discussion also touched on the benefits of acquiring a points-based TS late in the year so that you can use the points without having to pay for them either, similar to how folks agree to provide a free usage when transferring any TS.
> 
> In any case, Wyndham can also control the timeframe in which it executes a transfer on the resort contract side, which would affect who Wyndham bills when the divestiture is not to them.  It wouldn't, of course, affect any agreement terms in which a seller and a buyer decide who pays when, but the only time I could see a buyer agreeing to pay the seller's usage would be for a contract that has low MFs or is otherwise valuable.




Do you get the free 3 year worth of points with resales or only developer purchase.


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## raygo123 (Dec 26, 2019)

Eric B said:


> I've seen that in eBay listings for WorldMark accounts, but not all of them. One that's there now says the following:
> 
> *If you were a previous Wyndham or WorldMark owner and have gone through their Ovations program, you will not be eligible to own another timeshare from them per Wyndham/WorldMark.*


I gave one back and still in good standing. It may be that i still owned other contracts. They were retail contracts i still owned.

Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk


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## Eric B (Dec 26, 2019)

samara64 said:


> Do you get the free 3 year worth of points with resales or only developer purchase.



I'm not sure whether there are hard and fast rules for that.  It probably depends on the desirability of the contract you are "Ovating."


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> I think if someone Ovates some but not all of their contracts, they can buy again. Also, I’m pretty sure if someone Ovates their entire account and receives three years of Limited Edition use, they cannot buy again. What I’m not sure we know is whether if someone uses Ovations to get rid of all of their contracts without any free usage, if they could purchase again later.


I just spoke with Ovations and if you use Ovations for one contract or all you will not be able to buy through Wyndham again but you can buy resale. I also asked if you can use Current use year points when giving back through Ovations and was told you can use current use year points but not future use year points without paying $12/1000.


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

Eric B said:


> I'm not sure whether there are hard and fast rules for that.  It probably depends on the desirability of the contract you are "Ovating."


You can only get 3 years of free use on developer purchased deeds and not all qualify for the 3 years of free use. It is decided on a case by case basis. This is what I was told today by Ovations rep. Call in to find out what is available to your specific ownership PH 855-312-9040


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## Jan M. (Dec 26, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> @Braindead @bendadin @raygo123 you all seem inconsistent in excusing @ronparise for his large-scale “strip scheme,” but criticizing @dgalati for his small-scale “strip scheme” and me for my not yet executed “strip scheme.”



I understand why this seems inconsistent and unfair to you. A little more background information might be helpful.

Ron P. was the most knowledgeable Wyndham owner we've had here on TUG and he was very generous in sharing what he knew. He gets a lot of respect from many of us for that. You and others who have gained some knowledge unfortunately come across as posers by comparison to Ron. If Ron P. were still an owner it wouldn't be me posting because this whole discussion would never have gone this far. Before I make it sound like he was St. Ron P. let me make it clear that he rubbed a few people wrong from time to time and not everyone always agreed with everything he said when it came to opinions on things. However his knowledge of the directory and what he learned from the execs at the annual owners meetings and individual resort owners meetings was unparalleled. Unlike most of the owners who went to those meetings he wasn't there to meet other owners, eat, drink and be merry. He was there to talk to the execs and network. That was his business background. From what I gathered the execs viewed him more as an equal not just another lowly owner like the rest of us.

The other thing you need to understand is that Ron P. made it very clear that he knew what he was doing with the stripping couldn't last. But I don't believe he every thought it would be the end of everything for him with Wyndham.. He saw an opportunity to start a business that made him money and gave him something to do in retirement. He started with renting and the stripping came later. He had a good run and is a shrewd enough businessman to understand that his run was over and be the first person to make a deal with Wyndham to get out after the Freeze of August 2016. What I always felt sorry for him about was that his greed with the stripping led to him losing the extensive rental business he'd built with the New Orleans resorts. He went into his negotiations with Wyndham hoping to keep the many deeds, a number of fixed weeks for the major New Orleans events, he had at those resorts. Losing his New Orleans rental business was a very hard blow for him. I've wondered if he had it to do over if he would have risked everything he'd built by getting involved in the point stripping.

What you are missing is that even the mightiest can fall. When you mess with Wyndham you shouldn't expect to win because they make the rules.

Several other things to be very clear on.

The book, cancel, re-book at the discount and upgrade was an accepted practice. Let me state once again that I was well aware of how to do this but it was more work and headache than it was worth to me to do it. I don't plan that far ahead and was using our points so not interested in tying them up to do it. Also before they did away with cancelled points when you cancelled reservations they came back as cancelled points and there were limitations on how you could use them. Anyhow, VIP owners didn't believe they were doing anything wrong. The salespeople taught VIP owners to do it. As in if you don't know how to do this then you aren't making the most of your points. There were even VCs who would teach you these things. Many owners bought more points, developer and resale, because they were led to believe there was nothing wrong with doing this. And you and others need to understand that for a number of years the salespeople and VCs were heavily relied on by owners for help in leaning. Especially before there was a website. It was a different time so don't think badly of the owners who say "How can it be wrong when they taught us to do this." I used to joke that I could easily be a Ron P. hater because he could read the directory over once or twice and get it. I believe the majority of owners back then were more like me and despite reading over that directory more times than I care to admit would have been so lost without the salespeople and VCs teaching us.

Wyndham changed the system to once again attempt to control the renting and hurt the megarenters to eliminate the competition for Extra Holidays. Doing so had the added advantage of Wyndham being able to say they listened to those owners who complained. This was Wyndham once again doing an excellent job of spinning something they did for other reasons to make it seem like they were doing it to benefit the owners. I'm not saying there wasn't benefit to many owners, just that it wasn't Wyndham's primary reason for changing the system. Wyndham bought Fairfield in 2008 and the system changes came in 2017.  Why did it take nine years for Wyndham to change what had been common practice for years before they took over? Because it didn't suit them to change it before then. As much as the non VIP owners like to be haters about that practice and cast shame, that always seems to come across as envy and sour grapes that someone else got something they didn't but the haters also didn't pay to get VIP either. I'd like to see everyone focusing on who is ultimately responsible for the practice in the first place and allowing it to continue for so long rather than rehashing it to go at each other.

Ron P. and the others doing what he did with buying massive amounts of points, depositing into the now defunct credit pool, using everything and selling off the stripped deeds and contracts had a mentor and contacts inside Wyndham. But do you know how Wyndham found out about what they were doing? Ron P. told Wyndham's legal team about it! Wyndham was looking at people's accounts who had significantly more points in reservations than the number of points they owned. The system was malfunctioning and giving people more points than it should have and if I remember correctly it was happening when some owners would use credit pooled points to book something and cancel the reservation. That was what the Freeze of August 2016 was about. There were owners reporting what was happening to Wyndham months before Wyndham decided to look into it. They set up a program and found that there were owners who had hundreds of thousand to millions more points in reservations than what they owned could account for. Some were owners who figured out how to exploit the glitch and Wyndham was being very hard core in their dealings with anyone they thought might have been doing that.  When Ron P. met with Wyndham's legal team in Orlando that was what they thought he had done until he explained what he really did. He made the equivalent of a plea bargain with a non disclosure agreement. Wyndham bought him out at what amount we will never know and he is "no longer an owner" nor ever likely allowed to be again.


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## paxsarah (Dec 26, 2019)

dgalati said:


> I just spoke with Ovations and if you use Ovations for one contract or all you will not be able to buy through Wyndham again but you can buy resale. I also asked if you can use Current use year points when giving back through Ovations and was told you can use current use year points but not future use year points without paying $12/1000.


 
From personal experience, Wyndham subtracted current use year points equivalent to what I gave back via Ovations, but I don’t know what they would have done if I hadn’t had enough points available. Would they have let it be, or canceled reservations or charged me $12/k? I don’t know.

I also find it interesting that I was was on a Wyndham vacation while Ovation was in the process of removing my two contracts. I was hit up for updates at 3 of the parking pass desks, but not the fourth. Maybe I was on a do not sell list by that point? Or maybe it was a coincidence. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Grammarhero (Dec 26, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> I understand why this seems inconsistent and unfair to you. A little more background information might be helpful.
> 
> Ron P. was the most knowledgeable Wyndham owner we've had here on TUG and he was very generous in sharing what he knew. He gets a lot of respect from many of us for that. You and others who have gained some knowledge unfortunately come across as posers by comparison to Ron. If Ron P. were still an owner it wouldn't be me posting because this whole discussion would never have gone this far. Before I make it sound like he was St. Ron P. let me make it clear that he rubbed a few people wrong from time to time and not everyone always agreed with everything he said when it came to opinions on things. However his knowledge of the directory and what he learned from the execs at the annual owners meetings and individual resort owners meetings was unparalleled. Unlike most of the owners who went to those meetings he wasn't there to meet other owners, eat, drink and be merry. He was there to talk to the execs and network. That was his business background. From what I gathered the execs viewed him more as an equal not just another lowly owner like the rest of us.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the background.  I appreciate your being very fair, patient, and helpful with tips.  I plan to go to Star Island and Ocean Walk with the wife and kid.


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> From personal experience, Wyndham subtracted current use year points equivalent to what I gave back via Ovations, but I don’t know what they would have done if I hadn’t had enough points available. Would they have let it be, or canceled reservations or charged me $12/k? I don’t know.
> 
> I also find it interesting that I was was on a Wyndham vacation while Ovation was in the process of removing my two contracts. I was hit up for updates at 3 of the parking pass desks, but not the fourth. Maybe I was on a do not sell list by that point? Or maybe it was a coincidence. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Wyndham told me no negative balance when returning with Ovations and all you would have to do is call in and they would adjust the points on this issue. I also now understand why Bonnet Creek sales told me he couldn't sell me if he wanted to. I recieved Ovations acceptance letter about a week earlier but I called to let Wyndham know I did not own them for a year which ended the Ovations process.


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> From personal experience, Wyndham subtracted current use year points equivalent to what I gave back via Ovations, but I don’t know what they would have done if I hadn’t had enough points available. Would they have let it be, or canceled reservations or charged me $12/k? I don’t know.
> 
> I also find it interesting that I was was on a Wyndham vacation while Ovation was in the process of removing my two contracts. I was hit up for updates at 3 of the parking pass desks, but not the fourth. Maybe I was on a do not sell list by that point? Or maybe it was a coincidence. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I was lucky that I called Wyndham on not owning deed for 1 year. I listed the 4 deeds on TUG Marketplace and was contacted by a Wyndham preferred resell broker. @raygo123   I was able to sell all 4 deeds and the third party buyer was Wyndham.


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 26, 2019)

dgalati said:


> beginning in 2020 Wyndham will start charging $12/1000 on any negative balances.


I think we are getting mixed messaged on negative balances following an Ovations transaction.  What I hear you saying is that beginning in 2020 if you return a contract and you have no points in your account or reservations to be cancelled that you will be billed $12/1000 for the shortfall (negative balance)?  That is different from what the letter they sent you says.  Where did you get this information on the $12/1000 with negative balances?  Is it in writing or just something that someone said.  Anyone considering the Buy/Use/Ovations process would benefit from knowing the rule.  I'm not one of those persons, I'm very happy to be where I am as an owner.


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 26, 2019)

bestpal38 said:


> I cancel and rebook now. I just make sure I book, before I cancel. Do it all the time. I book what I need, then I keep an eye out at 60 days for the points to drop, and as long as there is availability, I can book a room, then cancel the higher point room. I don't see a problem with this.


The current process of book, rebook inside 60 days (if reservation date is available), and cancel is very fair.  The rebook dates are open to everyone, no special priority, no games, totally fair.  There is absolutely no problem with the current process.


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> The current process of book, rebook inside 60 days (if reservation date is available), and cancel is very fair.  The rebook dates are open to everyone, no special priority, no games, totally fair.  There is absolutely no problem with the current process.


LOL i dont disagree but thats what many felt about old system as it was sold as a VIP benefit but was not.


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> I think we are getting mixed messaged on negative balances following an Ovations transaction.  What I hear you saying is that beginning in 2020 if you return a contract and you have no points in your account or reservations to be cancelled that you will be billed $12/1000 for the shortfall (negative balance)?  That is different from what the letter they sent you says.  Where did you get this information on the $12/1000 with negative balances?  Is it in writing or just something that someone said.  Anyone considering the Buy/Use/Ovations process would benefit from knowing the rule.  I'm not one of those persons, I'm very happy to be where I am as an owner.


Wyndham told me this in a phone conversation that $12/1000 will be charged on a negative balance starting 2020 when selling to a private party and all current use year points have been used and no reservations are available to cancel. I was also told no negative balance when using Ovations and all current use year points have been used and no reservations are available to cancel. I tried to have Wyndham send me a email recapping conversation but they would not do it. Ovations is a moving target. To be sure your ownership qualifies you have to call in and ask. I did call today and verified that current use year points could be used before using Ovation. Wyndham has the right to make changes when ever they choose.


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## chapjim (Dec 26, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> No I didn't accuse you of anything.  It's not the real estate laws that matter. That's as easy as giving back a house you bought last year.  Your breaking the club rules.  As far as Ovations your completely at Wyndham's whims.  F Lee Bailey couldn't even help you
> As soon as Wyndham pushed the button to see there are no points attached for the use year your busted.  But don't worry it will never get that far as Wyndham, has not changed the law, but have the rules.  In which all your degrees are rendered useless.all you have to do is try it.  All your degrees and research are mute.  Is that the right word, mute. Like useless?  You have to consider what you don't know rather than what you do know.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



The word is "moot."  Mute would be better for most of this thread.


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## Braindead (Dec 26, 2019)

Let’s look at some facts. You said VIPs that are “using the various cancel-rebook scams.” That’s what I was responding to.
I’d like to hear from some VIPs such ecwinch, Sandi Bo, wjappraise chapjim or any other VIP that used cancel-rebook at that time. Here’s my question: were you scammers? If you used cancel-rebook scams you have to be scammers. For the record I  wasn’t a VIP at that time.


CO skier said:


> So, according to the Braindead standards ...
> Did the OP " advocate or do anything outside of the program guidelines Wyndham set up?"
> Did the OP "simply understand the system and use it to full advantage?"
> Did the OP "share that knowledge with the rest of us?"
> Should the OP be "applauded for this [sharing of knowledge]?"





CO skier said:


> If Wyndham has not already done so, they accept only deeds with the full Use Year of points available into the Ovation Program.  Simple.


The OP of this thread uses Ovations to get very low MFs.
Let’s look at Braindead standards:
1. According to your post, yes the OP advocated outside of the program guidelines.
2. According to your post, no the OP doesn’t understand the system.
3. According to your post, the OP shared false information with the rest of us.
4. According to your post, no the the OP shouldn’t be applauded for sharing false information.

The OP posted information as fact without calling Ovations first to verify if Ovations would take back all 4 deeds or similar deeds at the resorts such as Star Island. You or the OP are posting false information. In fact you both might of posted false information if Ovations take back contracts in January or February with no current use year points along with if Ovations wouldn’t currently take back contracts at resorts such as Star Island.

Whether you liked Ron P or not if he posted something 99.99% you could take that information to the bank!!!
One last thing, why do you think I started my response back then with “I have to back Ron & other renters on this“. That’s because Ron P & I didn’t always agree


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 26, 2019)

Going the Ovations route will only make your reservations cheap in the short run. Once you go that route, you can't collect $100-$125 every time you make a reservation by doing an update. The real way of saving money long term is only putting one person on your deed and attending updates by yourself while everyone else is sleeping in. They can't tell you're married if your spouse isn't on the ownership.

I made $550 back this year doing 5 owner updates and rented out $2,700 worth of reservations and used my remaining 273,000 points for vacations. My MF were $2,700. I used more reservation tokens than I had, but overall I made about $400 more than I spent on maintenance fees without having to put anything in my name that I didn't want long term.


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Going the Ovations route will only make your reservations cheap in the short run. Once you go that route, you can't collect $100-$125 every time you make a reservation by doing an update. The real way of saving money long term is only putting one person on your deed and attending updates by yourself while everyone else is sleeping in. They can't tell you're married if your spouse isn't on the ownership.
> 
> I made $550 back this year doing 5 owner updates and rented out $2,700 worth of reservations and used my remaining 273,000 points for vacations. My MF were $2,700. I used more reservation tokens than I had, but overall I made about $400 more than I spent on maintenance fees without having to put anything in my name that I didn't want long term.


Thats what Im talking about.  Making your ownership work at a lower $/1000.


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## Braindead (Dec 26, 2019)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Going the Ovations route will only make your reservations cheap in the short run.


Your right & that’s why in the OPs & dgalati system you will need to do it repeatedly over the years ahead.


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## Braindead (Dec 26, 2019)

capital city said:


> Seems pretty simple to me
> 
> 1. You should look to buy towards the end of the use year to obtain "free" points. We all should know this already.
> 2. You should look to get rid of points at the beginning of a use year and possibly use that years points first. We should all know this already
> ...


Agree & this is knowledge that I’m talking about


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## CO skier (Dec 26, 2019)

Braindead said:


> View attachment 15741
> Let’s look at some facts. You said VIPs that are “using the various cancel-rebook scams.”


Yes, it is a fact that I called cancel-rebook (which in 2016 meant cancelling a 13-month or other premium reservation and immediately re-booking for a VIP discount up to 50%) a scam.  (Book a 4 bedroom Presidential, and book a studio, then cancel both within the VIP discount window, rebook the studio for a discount and free upgrade to the 4  bedroom Presidential was the ultimate scam).




Braindead said:


> I’d like to hear from some VIPs such ecwinch, Sandi Bo, wjappraise chapjim or any other VIP that used cancel-rebook at that time. Here’s my question: were you scammers? If you used scams you have to be scammers.


That is the assumption that _You _made about other owners to reach _Your _conclusion.


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

CO skier said:


> Yes, it is a fact that I called cancel-rebook (which in 2016 meant cancelling a 13-month or other premium reservation and immediately re-booking for a VIP discount up to 50%) a scam.  (Book a 4 bedroom Presidential, and book a studio, then cancel both within the VIP discount window, rebook the studio for a discount and upgrade to the 4  bedroom Presidential was the ultimate scam).
> 
> 
> 
> That is the assumption that _You _made about other owners to reach _Your _conclusion.


If it wasn't abused it would still be available.  As a non vip I have found the availability much better without this sold as but never was a benefit.  The next thing Wyndham can do to help availability for all owners is to stop the use of resale points for VIP owners when booking in the 50% discount window.  Can anyone tell me if this is a defined VIP benefit in the owners directory or just a loophole?


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## Braindead (Dec 26, 2019)

CO skier said:


> Yes, it is a fact that I called cancel-rebook (which in 2016 meant cancelling a 13-month or other premium reservation and immediately re-booking for a VIP discount up to 50%) a scam.  (Book a 4 bedroom Presidential, and book a studio, then cancel both within the VIP discount window, rebook the studio for a discount and free upgrade to the 4  bedroom Presidential was the ultimate scam).
> 
> 
> 
> That is the assumption that _You _made about other owners to reach _Your _conclusion.


You are still using the term scam today. How can you call it a scam & yet not call all the VIPs that did it scammers?
What other assumption am I  & others supposed to come to ??


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## Braindead (Dec 26, 2019)

dgalati said:


> Can anyone tell me if this is a defined VIP benefit in the owners directory or just a loophole?


Easy, In the directory
Can VIPs cancel a reservation ? Yes
Can a VIP or anyone book that cancelled reservation when it comes back? Yes

Pretty simple & you can still do it today. Only difference is it’s harder today.
You can’t stop it until no owner can cancel a reservation.
If the original owner booked the reservation & the system won’t allow them to see the reservation when it comes back they could have someone else book it if they catch it coming back.

Couple questions for you along these lines:
1. When an owner is going to cancel a reservation & post it here on TUG for anyone of us to try & get it, is that allowed in the directory ?
2. After Voyager was in effect for awhile there was a thread on owners trying to figure out the timing of the cancelled reservations coming back.
Is that allowed in the directory? Was every VIP involved in that thread engaging in a scam?


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## CO skier (Dec 26, 2019)

dgalati said:


> The next thing Wyndham can do to help availability for all owners is to stop the use of resale points for VIP owners when booking in the 50% discount window.  Can anyone tell me if this is a defined VIP benefit in the owners directory or just a loophole?


This is from page 345 of the Club Wyndham Directory:

_"*Important Information about VIP Membership*

Eligible points are those purchased from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or an authorized affiliate.  Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status and are not eligible for VIP benefits."_


One would think that if Wyndham wants the new Founders level in Privileges to amount to anything, they would read their own Directory.


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## CO skier (Dec 26, 2019)

Braindead said:


> You are still using the term scam today. How can you call it a scam & yet not call all the VIPs that did it scammers?
> What other assumption am I  & others supposed to come to ??


I do not know.  Maybe just stick to the facts?


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## dgalati (Dec 26, 2019)

CO skier said:


> This is from page 345 of the Club Wyndham Directory:
> 
> _"*Important Information about VIP Membership*
> 
> ...


Thank you for the reply. I guess many VIP Owners may not know it's not a VIP benefit?


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## Grammarhero (Dec 27, 2019)

Braindead said:


> View attachment 15741
> Let’s look at some facts. You said VIPs that are “using the various cancel-rebook scams.” That’s what I was responding to.
> I’d like to hear from some VIPs such ecwinch, Sandi Bo, wjappraise chapjim or any other VIP that used cancel-rebook at that time. Here’s my question: were you scammers? If you used cancel-rebook scams you have to be scammers. For the record I  wasn’t a VIP at that time.
> 
> ...



The only person posting false information is you.  You claim that I am solely responsible for thousands of TS owners not paying MF, for which I and other tuggers find hilarious.

I never posted false information.  I used the operative word “if.”  “If” is hypothetical.  If Wyndham won’t take back, I will still be relatively happy.  I got one year free usage after all.

You are still a flip-flopper.  You were for a strip operation before you were against it.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 27, 2019)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Going the Ovations route will only make your reservations cheap in the short run. Once you go that route, you can't collect $100-$125 every time you make a reservation by doing an update. The real way of saving money long term is only putting one person on your deed and attending updates by yourself while everyone else is sleeping in. They can't tell you're married if your spouse isn't on the ownership.
> 
> I made $550 back this year doing 5 owner updates and rented out $2,700 worth of reservations and used my remaining 273,000 points for vacations. My MF were $2,700. I used more reservation tokens than I had, but overall I made about $400 more than I spent on maintenance fees without having to put anything in my name that I didn't want long term.


Good idea.  Thanks for letting me know.  Maybe I can wear my TUG shirt to updates.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 27, 2019)

Braindead said:


> View attachment 15741
> Let’s look at some facts. You said VIPs that are “using the various cancel-rebook scams.” That’s what I was responding to.
> I’d like to hear from some VIPs such ecwinch, Sandi Bo, wjappraise chapjim or any other VIP that used cancel-rebook at that time. Here’s my question: were you scammers? If you used cancel-rebook scams you have to be scammers. For the record I  wasn’t a VIP at that time.
> 
> ...


@dgalati ‘s Ovation posts already clarified that one can Ovate WITHOUT current use points.


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## Braindead (Dec 27, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> My CWA is awful, deeded in Delaware, a deficiency state.


You want false, this is false. Why does it make a difference that Delaware is a deficiency state?


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## Braindead (Dec 27, 2019)

Here’s Ron P ad for a stripped contract. Honest up front, so what’s wrong with It?
The buyers response, ”it was an amazing deal” ”Thanks Ron!!”
For you bashing Ron P stripped contracts, tell me why it wasn’t honest & ethical?


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## Grammarhero (Dec 27, 2019)

Braindead said:


> You want false, this is false. Why does it make a difference that Delaware is a deficiency state?


Thanks for noticing that.  I looked back at the contract.  It’s a RTU.  My mistake.  Looks like the choice of law is Delaware or any other state of the PTVO’s choosing.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 27, 2019)

Braindead said:


> View attachment 15761View attachment 15762
> Here’s Ron P ad for a stripped contract. Honest up front, so what’s wrong with It?
> The buyers response, ”it was an amazing deal” ”Thanks Ron!!”
> For you bashing Ron P stripped contracts, tell me why it wasn’t honest & ethical?


I wasn’t bashing Ron Parise, whom I praised in previous posts.

I note the inconsistency between your defending Ron P for his large-scale strip operation, which I’ve now learned supposedly had the potential to screw buyers out of several years of pts usage, while condemning me for my potential, isolated strip operation. If I’m honest and upfront with Wyndham that the stripped contracts have no current use points, shouldn’t I and @dgalati deserve the same benefit of the doubt that you gave to Ron P?


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## dgalati (Dec 27, 2019)

CO skier said:


> This is from page 345 of the Club Wyndham Directory:
> 
> _"*Important Information about VIP Membership*
> 
> ...


 Is it possible that a VIP owner can book a reservation with resale points in the VIP 50% discount window and if so are they using the system to their advantage or would this be considered a loophole?


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## raygo123 (Dec 27, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> I wasn’t bashing Ron Parise, whom I praised in previous posts.
> 
> I note the inconsistency between your defending Ron P for his large-scale strip operation, which I’ve now learned supposedly had the potential to screw buyers out of several years of pts usage, while condemning me for my potential, isolated strip operation. If I’m honest and upfront with Wyndham that the stripped contracts have no current use points, shouldn’t I and @dgalati deserve the same benefit of the doubt that you gave to Ron P?


Full disclosure. I said that many posts ago. As long as you have full disclosure that's fine. I even used the example of removing a light fixture after the sale of a home. If fully disclosed ahead, no problem. The problem comes whether or not Wyndham will accept the contract. If Wyndham does not accept a deed, it can still be used for that week in that unit, in case of UDI any week in in the assigned units. So you may also have to disclose that as well. In the case of CWA you bought into a trust under the rules of the club. You own part of all 70+ resorts. That ulturnative does not exist unless Wyndham accepts it.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 27, 2019)

dgalati said:


> Is it possible that a VIP owner can book a reservation with resale points in the VIP 50% discount window and if so are they using the system to their advantage or would this be considered a loophole?


It's a loophole, IMHO, that will be closed at some point.  Just as Wyndham has calculators in place to limit ARP reservations, it's just coding to limit the number of discounts you get to only the VIP eligible points, Developer plus PIC.  Thankfully, I own very few resale points.  

And, the Ovating of contracts that have no current year points is also a loophole, that will be closed at some point.  Between buying/developing new resorts, Ovations, and buying off Ebay, I'm sure they will continue to have enough points to keep the sales organization up and running.  They don't need to take stripped contracts back, IMHO.  This thread has highlighted the scheme (not a scam, BTW), Wyndham will shut it down.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 27, 2019)

Braindead said:


> Couldn’t agree more. I didn’t blame Ron and others for doing what they did.
> What UPSET me to no end
> WYN not only allowed it. WYN AIDED AND ENCOURAGED the action by buying the stripped contracts as Ron points out selling 20 million points in a single year of stripped contracts himself.
> Yes its shame on WYN not Ron and others! Ron was an entrepreneur!!





Braindead said:


> Actually I would’ve used a lot stronger language than “shame on WYN” but kept it clean and used Sandi Bo terminology.
> I have always enjoyed your perspective and your openness!! Neither one of us takes our discussions personally!!
> 
> I’ll share my perspective from not being involved with the “stripped contracts”
> ...


@Braindead care to explain why Ron Parise didn't get blamed for what he did (i.e. large-scale, strip operation, and selling or deeding back to Wyndham), but I did for my potential, isolated strip operation and, if possible, deeding back to Wyndham?  I even got blamed for thousands of TS owners not paying MF.


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## raygo123 (Dec 27, 2019)

dgalati said:


> Is it possible that a VIP owner can book a reservation with resale points in the VIP 50% discount window and if so are they using the system to their advantage or would this be considered a loophole?


You have to understand that there are VIP benefits that are tied to the VIP level and not associated epwith any points. That is one of them. No loophole. I bought to the Platium level. Being Platium I receive a 50% discount for being Platium. That is not associated with any points. I also own a Select contract which I hacpve ARO at National Harbor. That entitles me the ability to not only ARP AT NATIONAL HARBOR, but all Select only resorts but an additional 50+ resorts that are both CWA and Select using MY RARP at 11 months. Again because I am a VIP PLATIUM not associated with what kind of points I own. I can use ANY points at 11 months. Use year, deposit forward, or resale. Even though the directory rptelos you you can only use deposit forward points at 10 months.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 27, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Good idea.  Thanks for letting me know.  Maybe I can wear my TUG shirt to updates.


You missed the point.  Once you participate in the Ovations process, it's my understanding that you will be on the 'do not gift' list and that you will not be going to any timeshare presentations.  You won't need the T-Shirt.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 27, 2019)

@dgalati I just called Ovations.  Wyndham now accepts CWA, Star Island, Ocean Walk, and Grand Desert for Ovations, though I'd probably keep Grand Desert.  They might not accept in the future.


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## dgalati (Dec 27, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> @dgalati I just called Ovations.  Wyndham accepts CWA, Star Island, Ocean Walk, and Grand Desert for Ovations, though I'd probably keep Grand Desert.


Did you ask about using current use year points before giving back to Ovations?


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## Grammarhero (Dec 27, 2019)

dgalati said:


> Did you ask about using current use year points before giving back to Ovations?


Yes, as long as I have future use points, they'd accept "for now."  They use a lot of "for now" language.


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## dgalati (Dec 27, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> @Braindead care to explain why Ron Parise didn't get blamed for what he did (i.e. large-scale, strip operation, and selling or deeding back to Wyndham), but I did for my potential, isolated strip operation and, if possible, deeding back to Wyndham?  I even got blamed for thousands of TS owners not paying MF.





Braindead said:


> Couldn’t agree more. I didn’t blame Ron and others for doing what they did.
> What UPSET me to no end
> WYN not only allowed it. WYN AIDED AND ENCOURAGED the action by buying the stripped contracts as Ron points out selling 20 million points in a single year of stripped contracts himself.
> Yes its shame on WYN not Ron and others! Ron was an entrepreneur!!





Braindead said:


> Actually I would’ve used a lot stronger language than “shame on WYN” but kept it clean and used Sandi Bo terminology.
> I have always enjoyed your perspective and your openness!! Neither one of us takes our discussions personally!!
> 
> I’ll share my perspective from not being involved with the “stripped contracts”
> ...





dgalati said:


> Ron found a loophole and took advantage of it. No harm no foul. Only way I know of to become VIP on the cheap is to have a family member add your name to the deed.





Braindead said:


> You obviously have your facts wrong!
> 
> I’ll say it one more “us owners paid to buy out the mega renters” that probably had huge impact on us the owners seeing the program fee jump again in such a short timeframe.
> 
> ...


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## Braindead (Dec 27, 2019)

An open mind can have a change of mind!! As facts came out on what a few were doing a lot of our minds were changed including mine!! Is that a crime??
I assure you that a few were doing things that we still don’t know about today


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## Sandi Bo (Dec 27, 2019)

@Braindead, I don't mean to ignore you.  But honestly, I had stopped following this quite some time ago.  I'm not interested in buying, using, selling, etc.  Just not my thing and I lost interest (too many other things going on) and I couldn't keep up.   But I do see my name mentioned and so will comment briefly.  Yes, for sure, I did cancel and rebook.  I never felt it was a scam, nor do I now.   It was something Wyndham sales people would use as a selling tip.  They would leave out that there was a risk involved (your reservation could get picked up by someone else or on rare occasions (overbooked resorts or maintenance issues) and come back).  

While we are in the confessional, I also rolled points.  Again, something Wyndham used as a sales incentive.  Only they said you had to have developer purchased contracts in order for it to work (surprise, resale contracts sufficed).  BTW, my father was ready to purchase MORE points from Wyndham, and would have had I not been there. He was in his early 80's at that time.  Instead, I purchased my first resale contract following that meeting.

Sales people did not try to sell the stripping, to my knowledge.  And I don't think Wyndham had a good handle on what was going on (which continues to blow me away and gets back to my shame on Wyndham comments).  And for the record, it was something I chose not participate in.  Not meaning to sound holy than thou, just where I chose to draw the line.

I like to think that maybe by now I've recovered the unbelievable amount of money my father spent for his VIP account. No guilt in using the account in the manner it was advertised and big bucks were spent.

As far as resale earning VIP benefits?  If Wyndham wanted to stop it, sure they could. I say too may VIPers buy resale just for that reason.  And they pay the maintenance on those accounts.  And Wyndham needs that revenue stream.  Otherwise, they would stop it.  And we all know that could happen at any time. But until then, I'm in.  And feel now guilt, do not consider it scamming. Wyndham is fully aware this is how the system works, I sure don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong.

I manage the account for my family and that guides the decisions I make. Sure, it has gotten to a point where I'm the one deciding what's ethical, risky, etc. I've drawn the line on areas that I thought would put the account at risk. I have my family to answer to, and that is what matters to me.

On a humorous side note, when I first realized we could cancel and rebook, I called Wyndham and asked if it was really okay.  They confirmed, happily, sure you can.  And they would help you.  But the first couple times they told me, and I believed them, that I had to use guest confirmations to put different names on the reservations.  In the old system that was not true, until 15 days from checkin, and I bet I burned 10 guest confirmations before I figured it out.  The price we pay for education


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## Braindead (Dec 27, 2019)

Sandi Bo said:


> @Braindead, I don't mean to ignore you.  But honestly, I had stopped following this quite some time ago.  I'm not interested in buying, using, selling, etc.  Just not my thing and I lost interest (too many other things going on) and I couldn't keep up.   But I do see my name mentioned and so will comment briefly.  Yes, for sure, I did cancel and rebook.  I never felt it was a scam, nor do I now.   It was something Wyndham sales people would use as a selling tip.  They would leave out that there was a risk involved (your reservation could get picked up by someone else or on rare occasions (overbooked resorts or maintenance issues) and come back).
> 
> While we are in the confessional, I also rolled points.  Again, something Wyndham used as a sales incentive.  Only they said you had to have developer purchased contracts in order for it to work (surprise, resale contracts sufficed).  BTW, my father was ready to purchase MORE points from Wyndham, and would have had I not been there. He was in his early 80's at that time.  Instead, I purchased my first resale contract following that meeting.
> 
> ...


I never thought of you & the others of being scammers, but I sure took the heat earlier in this thread for standing up for all of you by saying you’re not scammers


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## Sandi Bo (Dec 27, 2019)

Thank you! I hadn't noticed and then wow, I had a lot of catching up to do


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## Braindead (Dec 27, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> thanks for TUG and @dgalati in particular for teaching me Wyndham use strategies.  @SNA27, @TUGBrian, @Fredflintstone, @paxsarah, @DeniseM, @CO skier just thought you should know.
> 
> 
> As attached, I got my second Dec 2019 Wyndham TS transfer with a 1/1/19 use year.  I actually got four (4) Wyndham TS Transfers in November or December 2019 with 1/1/19 use year.
> ...


Lost in this thread is:
Wasn’t some of these use years realigned??
If so where is all the complaining from you & dgalati on how Wyndham screwed you while realigning the use years??


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## Grammarhero (Dec 27, 2019)

Braindead said:


> Lost in this thread is:
> Wasn’t some of these use years realigned??
> If so where is all the complaining from you & dgalati on how Wyndham screwed you while realigning the use years??


I've never been screwed from realigned use years.  I'm sure others have.  But I was very careful about accepting Jan. 1 free use years or calling in to make sure there realignment only to Jan 1st use year.  I actually like Wyndham for doing this.


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## Sandi Bo (Dec 27, 2019)

Braindead said:


> Lost in this thread is:
> Wasn’t some of these use years realigned??
> If so where is all the complaining from you & dgalati on how Wyndham screwed you while realigning the use years??


After talking to a senior owner services rep in Austin (owners meeting), I believe that is one (big) reason they aren't prorating anymore for resale.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 27, 2019)

Sandi Bo said:


> After talking to a senior owner services rep in Austin (owners meeting), I believe that is one (big) reason they aren't prorating anymore for resale.


I have to think Wyndham makes $$ off not prorating resale contracts anymore.  I've never had a problem with getting the use year I want.  Then again, I call weekly.  What never ceases to amaze me is that I often know more than the customer service reps.  For example, he/she didn't know the program fee was $0.58 after 233k pts?  Really?  Of that there's a difference in program fees for resale ($135+) and retail ($155+) buyers?  Really?


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## bendadin (Dec 27, 2019)

.


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 27, 2019)

I think we'd all be better served if we used the term scheme versus scam.  There may be a lot of scheming going on, but I don't believe any Tuggers to be scammers.  

scheme
/skēm/
Learn to pronounce
_noun_

1.​a large-scale systematic plan or arrangement for attaining some particular object or putting a particular idea into effect.
"a clever marketing scheme"​
scam
/skam/
Learn to pronounce
_noun_
INFORMAL

a dishonest scheme; a fraud.
"an insurance scam"​


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## Braindead (Dec 27, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> I've never been screwed from realigned use years.  I'm sure others have.  But I was very careful about accepting Jan. 1 free use years or calling in to make sure there realignment only to Jan 1st use year.  I actually like Wyndham for doing this.


According to dgalati wanting a January 1 start to your use year should’ve been the worst thing you could’ve done.
All current use year points on the realigned contracts would be 2020 points so you should’ve received 0 2019 points expiring on December 31, 2019 on the realigned contracts to use or put in RCI.
I think Wyndham did you a favor & it’s nice to see you acknowledge that. Prorating would’ve hurt you !!!!!!!


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## Grammarhero (Dec 27, 2019)

bendadin said:


> I have no idea why TUG is allowing this, though then again, Ron P was very vocal about what he was doing after the fact. I called Jan yesterday and told her to have Jim take her temperature because she was being much to nice to Grammarhero (a first name would be great lol) and Galati. I get the feeling that GH has volunteered as an attorney to champion TUG. I can't figure it out. I just hope that my son doesn't end up working with him in New York.
> 
> I have galati on ignore (which is really quite lovely.)
> 
> I heard back from the Clearwater guy with 1.8m. He shook the exit guy free and Wyndham put a block in title services just in case someone tries something funny. He is very happy that I saved his $300k investment.


Just when I thought you were fair to me in your criticisms, you are unfair and judgmental.  I might not strip via Ovations.  You know why?  Because @Jan M. @Eric B @Cyrus24 @COSkier1 were fair to me and pointed out I might hurt other owners, which I didn't realize.

I thought TUG was here to support other timeshare users, not condemn them.  A certain politician said, "I get a sense among certain young people on social media that the way of making change is to be as judgemental as possible about other people. "If I tweet or hashtag about how you didn't do something right or used the wrong verb, then I can sit back and feel pretty good about myself because 'Man did you see how woke I was? I called you out!'" "That's enough," he said. "If all you're doing is casting stones, you are probably not going to get that far." "people who do really good stuff have flaws".

People have different moral and ethical systems, which I accept.  I have not always agreed with my clients on their moral/ethical stances, but I defended them to the best of my abilities.  For example, I represented a bankrupt disabled person who loved but spoiled her children to overcompensate for her disability, at the expense of her financial stability and creditors.  She should have lived as frugally as I do.  I tried to understand and not judge her, so that I can defend her well.  I draw a line that I never accepted a violence case (i.e. domestic violence, rape, homicide, sexual abuse, bank robbery, etc.)  Hopefully, everyone has their own moral and ethical lines and abide by them.  Things are not so black and white.  You deal with moral complexities, especially as an attorney.  Your son will legally defend many clients that he does not agree with ethical or morally.  If your son is judgmental, your son will not make a good attorney.

I have NOT volunteered as an attorney to champion TUG.  I don't know even know where you get that impression.

Since you brought it in, you are inconsistent in selling a stripped Grand Desert contract.  You were expecting someone not only to pay closing costs, but to pay MF for one year before getting to use that TS.  If you want to condemn someone, condemn yourself for selling a stripped GD contract.








						Wyndham Grand Desert 126k odd
					

126k odd year Buyer to pay $299 transfer fee plus $215 deed prep and recording fees




					tugbbs.com


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## Grammarhero (Dec 27, 2019)

bendadin said:


> I have no idea why TUG is allowing this.











						Wyndham Grand Desert 126k odd
					

126k odd year Buyer to pay $299 transfer fee plus $215 deed prep and recording fees




					tugbbs.com
				




Nice. Selling a stripped GD contract and expecting the seller to cover closing costs and MFs for one year before usage.


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 27, 2019)

In my mind, it doesn’t matter whether Grammarhero is an attorney. In my mind, he is simply a tugger who enjoys timesharing, wants to help others sometimes with legal information (not legal advice whatsoever) and share his timesharing experiences. I think he also enjoys learning new ways to use his timeshares.

That’s why some attorneys I know on TUG guard their profession. That’s sad but sometimes I find people think you are an attorney so you are there to give freebies. Well, I have news for you, attorneys are people too and have a life beyond law. 

@Grammarhero, you are an asset as a tugger. Your experiences and insights on timesharing is appreciated just like other tuggers here. I continue to learn from you and I thank you for that. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Jan M. (Dec 27, 2019)

Braindead said:


> An open mind can have a change of mind!! As facts came out on what a few were doing a lot of our minds were changed including mine!! Is that a crime??
> I assure you that a few were doing things that we still don’t know about today



That is so true. And sometimes we can be of two minds about  something.

I found out more about what was going on than most people know because someone I know knew a lot of the players in the game and this person also has contacts in Wyndham management. I was well aware that my person knew more than they were telling me and it's very safe to say there was likely even more going on than my person knew.

Braindead was around at the time so knows most of the rest of this but many of you likely don't.

When Ron P. sold stripped deeds and contracts to other people he made it very clear in his listings when the first points would be available. He never screwed over any of the people that bought from him. But those sales comprised only a part of what he sold.

What most of us found shocking was that Wyndham was on a massive scale buying back deeds and contacts that had been stripped. This was through the person Ron P. and the others had on the inside and/or a third party. It seems pretty inconceivable that Wyndham didn't know they were buying stripped deeds and contracts totaling I'd guess easily several hundred million points. This was when CWA was being heavily promoted and sold so we speculated that it was likely that Wyndham was hungry for cheap inventory to feed into CWA. However this was when we learning about silos in Wyndham and how often one department had no idea what other departments were doing. So it's entirely possible that some people in Wyndham knew what they were buying but other departments like the accounting department didn't. When Ron said he knew it couldn't last it I thought it was likely because he knew eventually someone in Wyndham would notice that the numbers were way off balance in the number of points available and the number of points Wyndham was paying maintenance fees on and start looking into why. As long as the numbers stayed within certain parameters that wouldn't have happened but too many people got in on the action and they got greedy so it was eventually going to end. If it wasn't for the glitch in the credit pool creating points and owners reporting it repeatedly which made Wyndham look into it, Ron P. and the others probably could have gone a few more years doing what they did.  The credit pool glitch issue led to Wyndham looking at Ron P. He laid it all out for Wyndham's legal team what he and the others were actually doing and that ended things sooner for them. It would have ended eventually anyways when Wyndham stopped buying their stripped deeds and contracts and at that time they would have just quit doing what they were doing. But they wouldn't have lost the very lucrative businesses they built in the purge that ensued with the investigations. Not everyone who ended up "no longer and owner" was involved in what Ron P. and the others were doing.

When I say they lost lucrative businesses many of you have no idea. Not a clue! There were more people who were making a very nice living doing rentals. Ron. P had a nice website for his New Orleans rentals and did a good business with those rentals. Ron never claimed to have that kind of computer skills so likely he had or paid someone to create his website for him. The Boehms had websites for each of the resorts they specialized in. And the list of resorts they specialized in grew from when I first learned about them and started watching. Their website for Glacier Canyon was glaciercanyon.net. Many people thought they owned Glacier Canyon and when you looked at their website it was easy to see why! Whoever did their websites had excellent computer website design skills. They had a huge number of listings available at the various resorts they specialized in and if you were looking at one resort and were curious about where else they offered stays,  a click would take you to their page for another resort. The Boehms from what I know were where the term "megarenter" started. They easily had a six figure income from their rentals. Another owner who is no longer and lost a business that supported his family very nicely was am1. And this is only three people; there were more.

I'm not so heartless that I can't feel sympathy for those people. On the other hand I was, like many other people, very unhappy that the system was set up in a way that allowed a number of those things to happen. I also wasn't blind to the fact that people taking advantage of the credit pool glitch and the points stripping weren't things to celebrate someone getting one over on "the man" because we the owners are ultimately paying the price for what they did. Companies don't normally just absorb losses as the cost of doing business and not find ways to pass those costs on to the consumer or in our case other owners

I, like many other owners, benefited by being able to get more reservations for my own personal use when those people were no longer owners. Now I'm going to repeat something I said when this was all going down. A good part of the  benefit many owners saw wouldn't last because other owners would step up to fill the void those megarenters left. Also that there would be a learning curve and there would be way too much cheap renting happening with the inexperienced owners. What I see on the Facebook Group Wyndham Owners Helping Owners, Rental Welcome is concrete proof of exactly what I predicted. And what will the fallout of that be on the rest of us?


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## schoolmarm (Dec 27, 2019)

Thank you, Jan, for your wise posts. 

Part of the fallout is that inexperienced "newer" owners are giving inaccurate information on this site and the Facebook webpages. I don't post too much right now (extremely busy with work--organist at Christmas and just finished two recitals at our big Art Museum yesterday) but I used to help the newbies more than I do now. I know that a few of use get a little tired of posting the same things over and over. And it is distressing to see so much misinformation out there. It is worse on the Facebook pages because the posts aren't archived in a sorted manner and it is hard to search on Facebook. 

All this bickering here and over there is not helpful. And this is where I really miss Ron! Like someone said a few pages ago--whether or not you liked or disliked Ron or whether you typically agreed with him or not, he WAS 99.9% accurate and you could rely on his posts and count on his advice. He would have put the kibosh on this thread several pages ago. 

And yes, *I* bought a stripped contract from Ron, during a short time when Wyndham wasn't buying his contracts back. I was VERY HAPPY to make this purchase and Ron disclosed everything upfront. I paid $1 plus the $299 transfer fee and got 308K every other year at Bali Hai. Giving up the couple of use years was worth it as Bali Hai is such a low maintenance fee resort, and you could never have gotten it for $300 all-in back then. 

Personally I think that banking on Ovations in the future is risky. I also think that the VIP program will probably not settle in as it is proposed now. And I really hate the sales tactics about the new VIP program--buy more points to LOCK IN your Privaleges. (Lock in WHAT? It isn't finalized yet). 

LOVE the resorts! Hate the sales tactics. And yes, the sales force used to show everyone, VIP or not, how to cancel and rebook. But that was before Wyndham told them not to.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 27, 2019)

Can't we all just get along?  Can't we just accept we have different moral or ethical systems?  For example, @SNA27 and I got off on the wrong foot.  He called me a greedy parasite and system-gamer, and I called him a Wyndham shill and tool.  Eventually, despite our differences, we grew to like and respect each other.  He gives really good Wyndham usage information and tips.  He also has Wyndham contacts and has a handle on what the Wyndham corporate folks and sales people are thinking.


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## Braindead (Dec 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> @Braindead @bendadin @raygo123 you all seem inconsistent in excusing @ronparise for his large-scale “strip scheme,” but criticizing @dgalati for his small-scale “strip scheme” and me for my not yet executed “strip scheme.”  I haven’t even used my 2020 points yet.  I might even keep my GD.
> 
> It just seems inconsistent and unfair.


I shouldn’t have to tell you this with you being a lawyer but I will.
Almost all schemes start on a small scale, then balloon into a big mess.
Ounce it’s a mess of what a few did the remaining masses[us owners] take the hit with new rules.
So yes I’d prefer to stop these schemes when they’re small before the rest of us have more benefits taken away.

A little history on what we’ve learned in hindsight:
1. At some point the old system started crediting back full points on discounted-upgraded cancelled reservations. Example: A studio with a 50% discount upgraded to a 4 bdr Presidential unit when cancelled would credit back the full points of a 4 bdr Presidential unit.
Atleast 2 Tuggers reported they informed Wyndham of the system error. Wyndham reaction, they ignored it until the system had created hundreds of millions of extra points. Yes I said shame on Wyndham.

2. Credit Pool. One of dgalati quotes of mine included imploding on itself. We found out later that one of Ron P  schemes when buying contracts was to credit pool the first 3 years of points. Then renting the 3 years of points with discounts & upgrades the first year, that’s where the big profits came from. After the first year he would use point managers hoping to break even or a small profit with credit pooling the points 2 years out.
So now how does one make big profits? Turn around & repeat the year before. Ron P was buying maybe 10mil resell points every year. Every year he would add 10mil points worth of contracts to make big profits. The problem was every year he also added 10mil points of more contracts breaking even with 2 years of MFs yet to be paid.
That would’ve imploded on itself sooner or later. But no Wyndham needs maybe 100mil points of inventory to sell. So where does the buyer for Wyndham find 100mil of points to buy. Call Ron P & other mega renters, the buyer & Wyndham didn’t care if the contracts were stripped or had 2 years of unpaid MFs cost for the points used. Again shame on Wyndam as they bailed out what would’ve imploded on itself or shut it down. This went on for a few years before the mess
End result we all lost the credit pool.

Now I’ll stop every little scheme I can before it’s a problem!!!
The LITTLE scheme you & dgalati have laid out gets out of hand what could possibly happen ?
We all LOSE the benefit of borrowing points. Ovations start getting 75% of applications in December-January so they’ll require all points to be available, that could cause a hardship on an owner.

Greed & easy $$$ takes everything down!!! You start with a 200k points & the plan works, next time it might be 400k points then 1mil, then all of sudden more do it!!

Eventually it will be stopped & all of us owners will LOSE yet another benefit !!!!!!!!


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## Grammarhero (Dec 28, 2019)

Braindead said:


> I shouldn’t have to tell you this with you being a lawyer but I will.
> Almost all schemes start on a small scale, then balloon into a big mess.
> Ounce it’s a mess of what a few did the remaining masses[us owners] take the hit with new rules.
> So yes I’d prefer to stop these schemes when they’re small before the rest of us have more benefits taken away.
> ...


Flip Flop @Braindead, You’ve already lost all credibility as a flip-flopper.
You’re going on my ignore list. You can continue being close-minded judging anybody who uses TS differently from you. We are all not on this planet forever. Hopefully, the TUG legacy I leave behind is helping and not judging others, even for their mistakes and poor financial decisions, and for mostly following my morals and ethics. On the other hand, it’s sad that the tug legacy you will leave behind is flip-flopping, being judgmental, and over generalizing.

You’re over generalizing anybody who doesn’t pay MF as upper middle-class.  Really?  What about @simpsontruckdriver going through the Great Rescission?  What about GoChiefsOrBust who had financial difficulties but had to worry about her credit score and lawsuits.


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 28, 2019)

@Grammarhero, I can’t count how many retired folks on fixed incomes and suffering from a disability posting a request for assistance with their timeshare dilemma. Some are clearly scared and want to know whether to pay MF and forget buying groceries.

Not everyone is well off. I have read many posts from wonderful, hard working decent folks who just want to put food on their tables and sadly can not afford to travel or have a timeshare anymore due to sudden life changes. It’s not their fault life happens.

I know how it feels. I was raised very poor. Even to this day, I am afraid of being poor again and still lead a simple, modest life. I am labelled sometimes as a cheapskate when in reality I can’t get my extreme poverty experiences out of me. To this day, I volunteer my time to help those less fortunate because I’ve been there.

Folks like what I have mentioned above deserve a hand up. Not be coldly told to meet their contractual obligations and forget to buy shoes for their feet. I think we call that compassion, understanding and caring.

It saddens me when people don’t look at the whole picture and just label someone as a stiff or deadbeat without looking deeper into the situation.

It’s people like @Grammarhero who try to make the lives of others a bit better.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 28, 2019)

And...that’s why I applaud folks like @Grammarhero who do get the whole picture. Thanks for that @Grammarhero.


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 28, 2019)

@Grammarhero, it also saddens me that some folks think “rich, upper middle class” are just trying to find ways to shirk their responsibilities and imply they are greedy and without feelings. That is simply incorrect.

As I said earlier, I was raised very poor. I decided at a young age that I will crawl out of poverty. It was not easy. I went to school on bursaries, scholarships and delivering pizza. I remember I would deliver pizza in minus 20 weather on my bike with plastic bags on my feet because I didn’t have any money and was too proud to ask. 

Through hard work and determination, I crawled out and yes do very well. My colleagues are also well off and we all volunteer to help those less fortunate. I have created an Inter-vivos trust that supports homeless kids and continuously dump more funds in the trust. My colleagues do similar to vulnerable folks.

You are doing volunteer and there are many wonderful things you do that you don’t have to.

So, again some folks sputter off without knowing what they are talking about. If they crafted some intelligence and do prudent research, they would probably eat their words and feel foolish.


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Flip Flop @Braindead, You’ve already lost all credibility as a flip-flopper.


I really do not think you've been around long enough to call BD a flip-flopper.  If you've read as many of his posts as I have read, you might actually see that he is very consistent in his views and perspectives.  And, when his view have changed, he has acknowledged that.  He is just as concerned about the next owner as any of us, yourself included, are.  He has a lot of historical perspective on schemes gone bad.  As do most who were around in 2016-2017.

What you are doing is perfectly legal inside Wyndham world.  A legal scheme.  At some point Wyndham will stop the scheme, my hope. and the hope of others is that we don't all pay the price for the scheme gains of a few.

I'd like address another point in this thread.  I doubt that any of us were born with spoons in our mouths, as has been subtly expressed in a couple of posts.  If we were, we'd not be looking for TS benefits, we'd be staying in Hilton and Marriott Hotel suites, not being bothered with figuring out how to best stretch our travel dollars.  Most of us, I suspect, grew up wanting more that what we had and then working to get it.  I love the quality vacations I get to take at this point in my life, I only wish I had stopped to better understand how to stretch the vacation dollar with timeshares while my kids were young.  My adult children are beneficiaries of my knowledge and, for that, I'm pleased

Let's try to look for the good in everyone and if you need to ignore someone, including me, please do so.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 28, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> I really do not think you've been around long enough to call BD a flip-flopper.  If you've read as many of his posts as I have read, you might actually see that he is very consistent in his views and perspectives.  And, when his view have changed, he has acknowledged that.  He is just as concerned about the next owner as any of us, yourself included, are.  He has a lot of historical perspective on schemes gone bad.  As do most who were around in 2016-2017.
> 
> What you are doing is perfectly legal inside Wyndham world.  A legal scheme.  At some point Wyndham will stop the scheme, my hope. and the hope of others is that we don't all pay the price for the scheme gains of a few.
> 
> ...


Respectfully, I stand by my comments about Flip Flop @Braindead.  He was for a strip operation before he was against it.

I never labeled TS owners as well-off.  @Braindead did.  He labeled anyone who stopped paying MF as well-off and easily affording MF, from the below screenshot.  Shouldn’t you be telling @Braindead to look for the good in everyone?  Including myself and anyone who can no longer afford MF?

Instead, @Braindead has began a nearly week-long crusade to condemn and discredit me, including my sharing with TS owners, many elderly and on fixed incomes and can no longer afford MFs, information about TS state foreclosure laws.


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 28, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> What you are doing is perfectly legal inside Wyndham world. A legal scheme. At some point Wyndham will stop the scheme, my hope. and the hope of others is that we don't all pay the price for the scheme gains of a few.
> 
> I'd like address another point in this thread. I doubt that any of us were born with spoons in our mouths, as has been subtly expressed in a couple of posts. If we were, we'd not be looking for TS benefits, we'd be staying in Hilton and Marriott Hotel suites, not being bothered with figuring out how to best stretch our travel dollars. Most of us, I suspect, grew up wanting more that what we had and then working to get it. I love the quality vacations I get to take at this point in my life, I only wish I had stopped to better understand how to stretch the vacation dollar with timeshares while my kids were young.
> 
> Let's try to look for the good in everyone and if you need to ignore someone, including me, please do so.



Although I respect your points and do believe we should look into the good in everyone, I refer to the above comment @Grammarhero added regarding Lawyers making 100s of thousands a year.

You are right, the Wyndham system is legal and so far is allowed. Regardless of whether you worry about their future moves (if they even make moves)., Wyndham does have the option to make changes at anytime for any reason on any benefit provided. From the Wyndham contracts I have read, they all had the clause that terms can change at their sole discretion. Whether the concept is posted on TUG or not, folks will discover this on their own and use it to their benefit. So, Wyndham changing the benefit will most likely not be caused by the TUG posts but caused by folks unrelated to TUG exercising it if they even make the adjustments in the first place. 

In my mind, we all want to derive maximum benefits from our various timeshare benefits. That’s not immoral, illegal or improper. That’s simply clever. I hope I am safe to say that one of the reasons you read TUG is to learn how to best use your timeshare benefits. Sadly, I have found from many resources with a common theme that folks are dissatisfied with their timeshare because they don’t know the benefits and thus don’t maximize them.

Just from my experiences, many tuggers are fairly well off which you alluded to. I think your thesis that if they weren’t, they wouldn’t be timesharing in the first place. I agree with you. The few tuggers I do know personally are good, caring and sharing people who have nothing but good intentions. 

I appreciated your comment on trying to get maximum value on your vacations. That is awesome in my books.

Where I have exception is when folks are labelled, smeared and slammed for what they are doing. That’s where I like to correct them. I always value and respect viewpoints even when they do not coincide with my views as long as there is no labelling.

Thank you for your comments. They were well crafted.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Respectfully, I stand by my comments about Flip Flop @Braindead.  He was for a strip operation before he was against it.
> 
> I never labeled TS owners as well-off.  @Braindead did.  He labeled anyone who stopped paying MF as well-off and easily affording MF, from the below screenshot.  Shouldn’t you be telling @Braindead to look for the good in everyone?  Including myself and anyone who can no longer afford MF?
> 
> Instead, @Braindead has began a nearly week-long crusade to discredit me, including my sharing with TS owners, many elderly and on fixed incomes, information about TS state foreclosure laws.


I did not read into BD's post the same things that you did.  You have readily volunteered your occupation and net worth so that statement was true.  And, I have to suspect that those participating in schemes such as those described are generally more well off and easily affording of MF's. so I agree with that statement.  I did not read where he criticized those with financial issues.  I think you may be projecting some of your feelings as fact.  We all do that, BTW.

To your credit, I appreciate you sharing knowledge on state TS laws.  To the extent that you are helping the duped rescind,, I'm glad you are here.  And, if you are helping others in financial straights rid themselves of TS's, very good.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 28, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> I did not read into BD's post the same things that you did.  You have readily volunteered your occupation and net worth so that statement was true.  And, I have to suspect that those participating in schemes such as those described are generally more well off and easily affording of MF's. so I agree with that statement.  I did not read where he criticized those with financial issues.  I think you may be projecting some of your feelings as fact.  We all do that, BTW.
> 
> To your credit, I appreciate you sharing knowledge on state TS laws.  To the extent that you are helping the duped rescind,, I'm glad you are here.  And, if you are helping others in financial straights rid themselves of TS's, very good.



To clarify, if Wyndham suspends my booking privileges, I'm not paying MF.  If Wyndham doesn't, I'm paying MF.

Do you see where @Braindead says information about TS state foreclosure isn't helpful for those with real financial issues.  Really?  Seriously?  Flip Flop @Braindead wrote,
"that's the financial class this information is helping. If you can't pay it doesn't matter what state you're in or what it does to your credit score. Why does TUG think this is good information for the well off that say the hell with it I'm Walking away."

Really?  Like @simpsontruckdriver , GoChiefsorBust, or @Xolodno weren't worried about their credit scores or lawsuits?


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> that's the financial class this information is helping. If you can't pay it doesn't matter what state you're in or what it does to your credit score." Really? Like @simpsontruckdriver , GoChiefsorBust, or @Xolodno weren't worried about their credit scores?


We will have to agree to disagree on your perception of his statement.  People who can't pay a MF most likely have much bigger worries than a credit score, ie. health, job loss, death of spouse, divorce, etc.  While I applaud you, again, for helping those in need, the credit score was probably not the biggest worry in their lives.  I do suspect that most of the regular  posters here think about how to keep our scores above 750 to 800.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 28, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> We will have to agree to disagree on your perception of his statement.  People who can't pay a MF most likely have much bigger worries than a credit score, ie. health, job loss, death of spouse, divorce, etc.  While I applaud you, again, for helping those in need, the credit score was probably not the biggest worry in their lives.  I do suspect that most of the regular  posters here think about how to keep our scores above 750 to 800.


What do you think of @Braindead 's statement, "Why does TUG think this is good information for the well off that say the hell with it I'm Walking away"?


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 28, 2019)

I don't plan on going back to revisit that post for context or state of mind.  I know that BD cares about his ownership and the ownership of others.  Just as you and I do.  I'd like to leave it at that.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 28, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> I don't plan on going back to revisit that post for context or state of mind.  I know that BD cares about his ownership and the ownership of others.  Just as you and I do.  I'd like to leave it at that.


I'm glad that you can leave things as that.  Unfortunately, @Braindead , trying to discredit my TUG contributions, believed the shared information on TS state foreclosure laws are helpful for only the well-off.  Those considering defaulting MFs, including widows, elderly, sick, and unemployed, are also afraid of deficiency lawsuits, not only credit score decreases.  Thus, information on TS state foreclosure laws are helpful for them as well.


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## dgalati (Dec 28, 2019)

No scheme going on If all parties have full disclosure.  Many would buy at $100 dollars or less all in hoping to have end of year use, would use 2nd year use and then would sell deed as quick as possible for whatever the market would allow. Now since the negative points issue will not allow many to sell they will be forced to use Ovations. A big win for Wyndham picking up a free deed even with Wyndham letting owner use current use year points.


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## Braindead (Dec 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> What do you think of @Braindead 's statement, "Why does TUG think this is good information for the well off that say the hell with it I'm Walking away"?


Part of my statement you seem to ignore.

“ If you can’t pay it doesn’t matter what state you’re in or what it does to your credit score.”
True or False?
If credit score is the deciding factor, they have the financial means to pay their financial responsibilities.


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## dgalati (Dec 28, 2019)

dgalati said:


> No scheme going on If all parties have full disclosure.  Many would buy at $100 dollars or less all in hoping to have end of year use, would use 2nd year use and then would sell deed as quick as possible for whatever the market would allow. Now since the negative points issue will not allow many to sell they will be forced to use Ovations. A big win for Wyndham picking up a free deed even with Wyndham letting owner use current use year points.


 Wyndham referred to the buyers and sellers as traders of deeds. Wyndham can also be considered the largest trader of deeds.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 28, 2019)

Braindead said:


> Part of my statement you seem to ignore.
> 
> “ If you can’t pay it doesn’t matter what state you’re in or what it does to your credit score.”
> True or False?
> If credit score is the deciding factor, they have the financial means to pay their financial responsibilities.


Flip Flop @Braindead I finally un-ignored to see what you would post.  For the last time, a credit score decrease is not the only concern, but a straw man argument you are latched onto. Folks are also worried about potential deficiency lawsuits.  Hopefully, the legal information I’m sharing helps them make decisions once they get clarity on potential deficiency lawsuits.


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## Braindead (Dec 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Flip Flop @Braindead I finally un-ignored to see what you would post.  For the last time, a credit score decrease is not the only concern, but a straw man argument you are latched onto. Folks are also worried about potential deficiency lawsuits.  Hopefully, the legal information I’m sharing helps them make decisions once they get clarity on potential deficiency lawsuits.


For clarity in one state you should pay & in another state you shouldn’t pay??
Even though you’re in the same situation financially??


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## Braindead (Dec 28, 2019)

State Laws determine morals??


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## dgalati (Dec 28, 2019)

What the trader of deeds maybe guilty of is using their ownership to maximize the $/1000. No different the a VIP using millions of resale points as a VIP benefit and booking them with the VIP 50% discount.  The resale points for VIP owners is what I would compare to the free use of points that @Grammarhero has made work for his ownership. It is every owners right to not have the burden of maintenance fees and decide if they want to give back to Ovations.


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 28, 2019)

Just from my experiences, when I was very poor, I was vulnerable, weak and frankly beaten down. I was always afraid that corporations, governments and well off folks would take what little I had. 

When I was poor, I wasn’t concerned about my credit score. I was afraid of having the little I had taken away.

So, from my experiences, I appreciated someone giving my some knowledge so I wouldn’t be so frightened.

In my volunteer work, I see the same real fears with folks who are very poor.


Now, As for credit score, I really don’t care because I don’t need credit in the first place. Everything I want and need I can pay for or is paid for. Funny, now that I have resources, banks are crawling all over me to offer me credit. Also, because I look before I leap and frankly can defend myself, I am not worried about those with resources.

Sometimes vulnerable folks just need information to make a good decision like affidavit of Indigency and know that the food will not be taken from the table.









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## Grammarhero (Dec 28, 2019)

Braindead said:


> For clarity in one state you should pay & in another state you shouldn’t pay??
> Even though you’re in the same situation financially??





Braindead said:


> State Laws determine morals??


Flip Flop @Braindead can we just agree to disagree, and both let this go? You are coming across as a creepy, obsessive, pathological person.  Your crusade of condemning and discrediting me is nearly a week long.  Do you have anything better to do than criticizing tuggers you disagree with all week?  I wouldn’t be surprised if you were a defendant in a lawsuit.


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## Jan M. (Dec 28, 2019)

Grammarhero I have to support what Braindead said about about schemes starting small and ballooning into a big mess that eventually leads to owners losing benefits and having more restrictions to deal with. We who are long time owners have seen this happen repeatedly,

Fredflintstone is talking about people who have fallen on hard times or are in situations beyond their control and we have sympathy for those people. However that is not what is the crux of this discussion and you are very conveniently using it to hide behind his skirts on this. Unless you are such an incompetent lawyer that you can't get anyone to hire you or would someday do something that would get you disbarred there is a minuscule chance of you ever being in that situation.

You once told about a client of your MIL's who you made an offer to buy their timeshare that offended them. You saw yourself as being realistic because resale timeshares have very little value compared to the purchase price if people bought from the developer. While that is often true there are a lot of people who do own something that is worth a lot more than $1, $100 or even $1000. So ask yourself did that person and many other people here on TUG see you as your saw yourself?  As the helpful individual offering to take it off their hands? Or did they see someone attempting to take advantage of an owner who wants to get out and knows nothing. Like many things it is about perceptions.

You didn't start this thread to help people who found themselves in situations they hadn't planned on or couldn't have forseen. You started this thread to brag how you got what you have so cheaply, can use it for a couple of years to get vacations at a low cost to you then dump what you have before you have to pay the all maintenance fees on the points you used in that final year. You were touting it as a plan everyone should be as smart as you to emulate but it still falls under the category of a *SCHEME*. Based on what many of us here on TUG have seen and experienced it has the potential to walk down that road of being just one more scam with fallout that we will all pay the penalty for when you are long gone.

The timeshare wisdom long promoted on TUG has never been to buy a timeshare to get in and out. It is that you buy timeshares with the plan of being able to use them for a number of years to come. Many of us found that the longer we owned and the more we learned that we saw the need to readjust our portfolios. That what we started out with wasn't that great or no longer worked for us. Many owners over time have gone on to build portfolios that got them a lot lower maintenance fees or sometimes paying higher maintenance fees to be able to secure stays where they loved going at specific times of the year. However that is not what you are suggesting nor promoting in your posts.

There are a lot of long time TUG members who are saddened to see what the Wyndham threads are turning into. Reread schoolmarm's post.  Set your hubris aside, accept that you have chosen to follow or be swayed by some very poor mentors and moving forward learn from the people who actually have something of value to teach. Hopefully some of those people who rarely post or stopped altogether because of certain individuals who have turned the Wyndham forum into a chat room for their own entertainment and a joke will start posting again.  You may have learned some things that can be helpful to others but you are stepping way over the line in attempting to seemingly promote yourself as reliable source on all things Wyndham/timeshares. Please don't insult people's intelligence by playing games with denying it, making excuses or hiding behind others.

You may have an issue with accepting being corrected or maybe it's just the way some people go about correcting you sets your back up. Everyone has those moments. We  may not like the person saying something or how they say it but that doesn't make them wrong. Nor should it be accepted as justification that we are right. Your experience with owning is limited at this point nor are you even using what you own so people are going to take exception to what you are doing and saying. I believe your intent is to be an asset to TUG. and given time I believe you have the potential to become what you see yourself as now being.

I've been given my share of free passes, especially in my early years on TUG. I was, as I should be, corrected when I got things wrong. I can accept that because life is too short to be offended or threatened when or how you get corrected. I kid about telling Ron P. that I could be a hater because he knew the directory so well. Even now I frequently look things up on the Wyndham website to make sure what I'm posting is correct. Nor were all my opinions always correct or well received even when they were correct. The point of sharing opinions is not just to convince other people you are correct but to give others the opportunity to either add their endorsement or demonstrate how you aren't correct. Maybe you got part of it correct and with what that other person adds now everybody has more correct information to have a better grasp on something. Getting things wrong and making mistakes, learning by trial and error, is undoubtedly a valuable learning tool. There is no shame in being wrong, the shame comes when you refuse to learn from it.

With the coming of a new year and a new decade maybe you could ask for and be given a pass to start over on a new foot if that's what you want. If that is what you choose you will find support from the people who truly have the best interests of the other owners and TUG at heart.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 28, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> Grammarhero I have to support what Braindead said about about schemes starting small and ballooning into a big mess that eventually leads to owners losing benefits and having more restrictions to deal with. We who are long time owners have seen this happen repeatedly,
> 
> Fredflintstone is talking about people who have fallen on hard times or are in situations beyond their control and we have sympathy for those people. However that is not what is the crux of this discussion and you are very conveniently using it to hide behind his skirts on this. Unless you are such an incompetent lawyer that you can't get anyone to hire you or would someday do something that would get you disbarred there is a minuscule chance of you ever being in that situation.
> 
> ...


1) I don’t mean to promote myself as knowledgeable about Wyndham.  I didn’t even mean to have people emulate me, nor did I want people to.  I don’t know where people got that. I was just happy that I think I got a good deal, wanted to share that, and apparently got condemned for it.
2) The talk about financial hardship is not my own, but other people’s WRT TS state foreclosure laws.  I was preparing a table on TS state foreclosure laws, and @Braindead questioned its usefulness.  Braindead said only well-off people would benefit from such a table, which is incorrect.  This was the preliminary table, which I have more to add. https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/s...s-laws-and-guides-manuals.298554/post-2370752


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## Jan M. (Dec 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> 1) I don’t mean to promote myself as knowledgeable about Wyndham. I didn’t even mean to have people emulate me, nor did I want people to. I don’t know where people got that.



Your 1,654 posts in just six months of belonging to TUG and buying your timeshares paint a very different picture.


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 28, 2019)

@Jan M. Thank you for your well thought out comments. On @Grammarhero ‘s side, he has wanted to move on a few times. Earlier in this thread, he commented on “everyone getting along”. I think it is healthy to agree to disagree.

I don’t see @Grammarhero skirting the issue. I see him as feeling attacked whether we agree with that or not. The fact remains is he feels that way. I know this sounds like a broken record but Wyndham has the power and the right to change any term, system , benefit or program at anytime. If they wish to change benefits, they will regardless of what comments are made. 

I am saddened that some timeshare owners are fearful of losing benefits. The fact is Wyndham can change any terms at any time at their sole discretion. Frankly, that is another reason I rent.

@Grammarhero buying a timeshare interval cheap is part of the course of resales. I don’t see him as bragging. I see him as buying a timeshare interval at market value. In my mind, buying resale is smart. I saw no gloating on his part whatsoever.

As for @Braindead, I respect his thinking on fearing changes due to people finding ways to further maximize benefits. I just take exception when he labels folks as scammers. His points do have some value as long as labelling doesn’t occur. Some points I do disagree with BUT that’s ok, he is entitled to his opinions.

I must say I have read many of your posts and always find them enlightening, intellectual and helpful. Thank you for that!




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## Grammarhero (Dec 28, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> Your 1,654 posts paint a very different picture.


A great percentage of my posts are helping other recent TS owners rescind.  If I have incorrect information, I readily correct it.  I’m not a Wyndham expert, nor do I purport to be.  Even in this thread, I mistakenly thought that my CWA was deeded in Delaware, which Braindead corrected me.  I went back to read my contract.  Turns out the the HOA is in Delaware, and the choice of law is Delaware of anywhere or the HOA’s choosing.

though @Braindead has more Wyndham knowledge than I do, I disagree with his assessment that only the well-off can benefit from TS state foreclosure laws information.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 28, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> Your 1,654 posts in just six months of belonging to TUG and buying your timeshares paint a very different picture.


If it makes everyone feel better, I will stop posting on the Wyndham forums, unless it’s related to an owner seeking information on rescission.  All that I ask is that other owners stop attacking me.

I’m also a millennial.  Heck, I have friends who make 10 Facebook posts a day.  I actually checked my stats.  Only 394 of my posts have been on the Wyndham forum.


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> A great percentage of my posts are helping other recent TS owners rescind. If I have incorrect information, I readily correct it. I’m not a Wyndham expert, nor do I purport to be. Even in this thread, I mistakenly thought that my CWA was deeded in Delaware, which Braindead corrected me. I went back to read my contract. Turns out the the HOA is in Delaware, and the choice of law is Delaware of anywhere or the HOA’s choosing.
> 
> though @Braindead has more Wyndham knowledge than I do, I disagree with his assessment that only the well-off can benefit from TS state foreclosure laws information.



I agree. Having legal information is a benefit to all regardless of income.

It’s one way to know your rights and responsibilities. Thank you @Grammarhero for sharing legal information on your free time.

A friend of mine once said, “the legally ignorant is precisely why others take advantage because they only stress their rights. Being ignorant leads to vulnerability.”


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## raygo123 (Dec 28, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> I agree. Having legal information is a benefit to all regardless of income.
> 
> It’s one way to know your rights and responsibilities. Thank you @Grammarhero for sharing legal information on your free time.
> 
> ...


And after 238 posts what would that be?

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## Fredflintstone (Dec 28, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> And after 238 posts what would that be?
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



Sorry, you lost me.


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## Grammarhero (Dec 28, 2019)

raygo123 said:


> And after 238 posts what would that be?
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


it’s in another thread








						Links to Official State Timeshare Laws and Guides/Manuals
					

What I'm providing in this post is not legal advice, but legal commentary or observations similar from law review or journal articles.  I will try to prepare a spreadsheet this coming Sunday night.  This spreadsheet will be the accumulation of TUG TS knowledge.  I wish to thank: 1) @TUGBrian...




					tugbbs.com


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 28, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> it’s in another thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you. I ate too much leftover turkey today. 


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## Braindead (Dec 28, 2019)

Fredflintstone said:


> Now, As for credit score, I really don’t care because I don’t need credit in the first place. Everything I want and need I can pay for or is paid for. Funny, now that I have resources, banks are crawling all over me to offer me credit. Also, because I look before I leap and frankly can defend myself, I am not worried about those with resources.


Do I understand that you stop paying MFs in a state that Grammerhero identified??
Sounds like you could easily afford to keep paying Instead of walking away


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## Fredflintstone (Dec 28, 2019)

Braindead said:


> Do I understand that you stop paying MFs in a state that Grammerhero identified??
> Sounds like you could easily afford to keep paying Instead of walking away



I’m sorry @Braindead, I’m moving on. I hope you do too.


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## Makai Guy (Dec 28, 2019)

This thread has been circling the mulberry bush for a long time with the same opinions stated over and over, a number of personal lectures pointed at one another, and everyone wanting to have the last word.

Time to shut this down.


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