# Trade for airline miles instead of transferring starpoints



## RLG (Nov 18, 2006)

In researching whether the Starwood timeshare program makes sense for me,   I just finished spending quite a bit of time reading every thread on this board about the program.  This is an unbelievable resource and I learned quite a bit.

I was shocked, however, to see the number of people who mentioned that they transfer their starpoints to airlines for miles.  

I assume it must not be common knowledge on this board that you can get *more* airline miles by trading with someone who has miles and wants starpoints than by directly transferring?  The difference can be 20% or more.

There are a lot of people (including myself) who have lots of airline miles and need starpoints.  As a result, they are willing to offer a 'premium' to get starpoints.  

In a trade the other person will use his miles to pay for your airline tickets.  You use your starpoints to pay for his hotel.

100,000 starpoints turns into 125,000 miles at most airlines if you transfer from starwood.   Someone who has airline miles would typically be willing to give you at least 150,000 miles.


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## Henry M. (Nov 18, 2006)

The problem is connecting those with lots of starpoints with those with lots of airline miles. It is also harder to match when the points from both programs transfer so whoever transfers earlier incurs a significant risk. With AA, at least, you could transfer miles to someone else's account but that costs significant money and you are limited in the number you can transfer.


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## formerhater (Nov 18, 2006)

Be careful about entering into agreements to trade Starpoints or other FF currencies.  I know with Starpoints, you are not permitted to transfer them to someone else unless they are living at the same address as you (i.e. a spouse/partner).  People have tried to get around this by temporarily changing their address with Starwood only to be discovered by account integrity and have all Starpoints voided and their SPG account closed.  Make sure you read the T&Cs closely.


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## RLG (Nov 18, 2006)

emuyshondt said:
			
		

> The problem is connecting those with lots of starpoints with those with lots of airline miles.



That's the only explanation I could guess for why so many people are giving up 20% more miles by transferring when they could trade instead.  In case it wasn't obvious (as a newbie here, I don't want to violate any rules), I'm willing to do this trade in substantial size.  I can do AA, BA, CO, DL, HA, NW and UA.



			
				emuyshondt said:
			
		

> It is also harder to match when the points from both programs transfer so whoever transfers earlier incurs a significant risk.



Normally, somone has to take credit risk on the other.  This is similar to the situation if you do a direct exchange of a timeshare with another owner.   You need to satisfy yourself that they're not a scammer.  Websites like Ebay where I'm a long timer seller have a feedback mechanism to help evaluate this.  I obviously haven't been here on TUG long enough to know if you've got something similar.  I assume there must be extensive discussion on here about how to handle this risk in a direct exchange situation?



			
				emuyshondt said:
			
		

> With AA, at least, you could transfer miles to someone else's account but that costs significant money and you are limited in the number you can transfer.



Paying AA to transfer the miles would wipe out all the savings.  The normal way to do this kind of trade is that you book your award flights and put the reservations on hold.  The other person uses his miles to ticket the flights.


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## DeniseM (Nov 18, 2006)

We use Starpoints for award seats to Hawaii every year.  But we accumulate them using our Starwood AMEX card and Hawaiian Air VISA.  I would never exchange our week for airfare.  With a MF of $1,400 to $1,600, 100K Starpoints is not a good value!  But, I don't think I would be comfortable doing a private trade that's against Starwood rules.


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## RLG (Nov 18, 2006)

DeniseM said:
			
		

> But, I don't think I would be comfortable doing a private trade that's against Starwood rules.



This strikes me as similar to the reaction that many have when they first hear of the idea of buying "unauthorized resale" rather than from the sponsor.

I know numerous people (including myself) who have transferred points between accounts and starwood has never suggested that they want us to stop.  Compare this to the scare tactics they use to discourage resales.


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## DeniseM (Nov 18, 2006)

RLG said:
			
		

> This strikes me as similar to the reaction that many have when they first hear of the idea of buying "unauthorized resale" rather than from the sponsor.
> 
> I know numerous people (including myself) who have transferred points between accounts and starwood has never suggested that they want us to stop.  Compare this to the scare tactics they use to discourage resales.



Actually, I am the happy owner of an unauthorized resale that I bought on ebay.   After I purchased my SDO week, I got a nice welcome letter from Starwood, so I am unaware of any scare tactics used to discourage resales.   

Legit or not, with the MF's I pay, I can't imagine exchanging my week for airline miles.  But I do love the free Starpoints I earn with my AMEX!


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## arlene22 (Nov 19, 2006)

Like Denise, I wouldn't trade my week at Harborside for StarPoints, but I have a ton from the SPG Amex and my husband's frequent business travel (ever since we bought our Starwood timeshare, he only stays in Starwood hotels!). 

I once made a reservation at the Westin Maui hotel using StarPoints for my sister and her husband. I did not realize there was a rule against that. I was very upfront with the folks on the phone that this was a gift for my sister and her DH, and they said no problem, whatsoever. Put their names on the reservation and everything. They had a wonderful time.


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## arlene22 (Nov 19, 2006)

Just thinking about this some more. The 20% difference may not be enough to entice a trade. IMO, the real value lies in having someone who has elite status making the ff reservations for you. I know my DH is elite on CO (and other SkyTeam members) and this helps a lot with ff availability. We have been able to make ressies for holiday weeks like President's Week and Easter Week, which everyone says are notoriously difficult to obtain. Elite status also gets you much better seat assignments. We made a President's Week ff reservation for my BIL (direct flight to the Bahamas) and we were able to select a "premium seat" for him because the reservation was made from our account (he doesn't even have a Onepass number, much less elite status). We made this reservation a few weeks ago, not 330 days prior which is the usual recommendation. 

If you are interested, you should set up a site, similar to the Starwood Direct Trade site (blogger format) and see what folks are willing to trade for. Might work.


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## RLG (Nov 19, 2006)

arlene22 said:
			
		

> I once made a reservation at the Westin Maui hotel using StarPoints for my sister and her husband. I did not realize there was a rule against that.



To clear up any confusion on this point: both starwood and most airlines are 100% OK with using your miles/points for someone else as a *gift*.  Starwood but not the airlines also allows you to transfer miles between accounts if you have the same address in their system.  (This is a loophole, but the post above is the first time I've ever heard Starwood objects to these transfers.)

The airlines (and probably starwood) are very much opposed to people *selling* their miles for cash.  If you get caught  they'll severely penalize you.  Although I'm a longtime seller on Ebay and have excess airline miles, I don't sell mileage awards for this reason.

Starwood and the airlines also ban "barter".  This is where things go from black and white to shades of gray.  If your friends who are staying free with you in your Hawaii timeshare use their miles to pay for your tickets is that barter or a gift?  As a practical matter, neither the airlines nor starwood does much to inquire into why you like this person enough to book an award for them or give them hotel points.  Obviously, you shouldn't say you "bartered" them.

This whole issue also presents interesting ethical questions.  A potentially analagous situation is where some timeshares or trading companies charge a fee to allow someone else to use your timeshare if you're not going to be present.  Some people think the fee itself is unethical and would have no problem avoiding it so long as there is no risk their friends will be denied admission.  Others think the trading company can make any rules they want and it's unethical to use them and not pay the fee.

Obviously, everone has to decide what they personally are comfortable with.


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## RLG (Nov 19, 2006)

arlene22 said:
			
		

> the real value lies in having someone who has elite status making the ff reservations for you.



You have a point for some airlines.  Different airlines give different levels of preference for awards to different elite levels.  

I suspect, however, that the person who needs to transfer their starwood points in order to book an award probably has lower elite status than the person they would trade with.


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## camachinist (Nov 19, 2006)

Can't speak in specifics here, but do offer up a discussion of a system I do have a lot of familiarity with, the UA Mileage Plus system....you might find the discourse and strategies enlightening...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=622659&highlight=trading

Pat


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## RLG (Nov 19, 2006)

*analagaous situation with exchanges*

As I said earlier, "barter" of frequent flyer miles is against the rules of the frequent flyer programs.  I assumed there would be typical timeshare situations where people have to make their own decision about how close to the line they want to go.

I came across this language in the "Distressed Exchange" sticky which looks like a similar analagous sitation:

"IMPORTANT: Major exchange company rules prohibit the rental or exchange of deposited weeks, exchanged weeks, bonus weeks, etc. Further, exchange companies have been known to take disciplinary action against violators of their rules when discovered via online sources such as this one. Place any such offers here AT YOUR OWN RISK of discovery by your exchange company. "


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## skim118 (Nov 19, 2006)

RLG said:
			
		

> I was shocked, however, to see the number of people who mentioned that they transfer their starpoints to airlines for miles.
> ........................................
> ........................................
> 
> 100,000 starpoints turns into 125,000 miles at most airlines if you transfer from starwood.   Someone who has airline miles would typically be willing to give you at least 150,000 miles.



We have converted Starpoints to airline miles only twice.  

Once we converted 100,000 Starpoints to 250,000 Qantas points and the second time we converted 120,000 Starpoints to 300,000 BA miles during double miles promotion(2004).

Lately we have not had any good promotions and we did not participate in the last year's  BA deal where you received just 175,000 BA miles for 100,000 Starpoints.

Starpoints maybe more valuable to frequent-fliers than airmiles, but for timeshare owners like us needing 6 tickets to Hawaii during peak summer periods, airline miles are a valuable commodity too.


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## RLG (Nov 19, 2006)

skim118 said:
			
		

> we converted 100,000 Starpoints to 250,000 Qantas points and the second time we converted 120,000 Starpoints to 300,000 BA miles.



Now those conversions make sense.  I participated in the BA promotion in 2004 as well.

It's the 1:1.25 conversions where I think people could do better.


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