# which timeshare has best CashFlow?



## FlyKaesan (Oct 25, 2006)

which timeshare has best CashFlow?  As long as I can rent and receive more than my fees, isn't that good timeshare?

Can anyone tell me any strategy to make money in timeshare?


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## EZ-ED (Oct 25, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:
			
		

> Can anyone tell me any strategy to make money in timeshare?



My strategy would be to put the money in the bank earning interest and forget trying to make money on timeshares.


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## Dave M (Oct 25, 2006)

Making money with timeshare rentals, taking into account the initial cost of the timeshare, is very difficult. A few people here do it, but they have expertise developed over a number of years. They know which timeshares they want to buy, they know how to find bargains to purchase those timeshares and they typically have developed a group of repeat rental customers. 

They also compete against an increasing number of rental outlets that get inventory from exchange companies resorts and other sources, often renting weeks for less (yes, _less_) than the maintenance fees. Competing with that ever-increasing competitive presence takes a lot of fortitude, expertise and experience.


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## Steamboat Bill (Oct 25, 2006)

EZ-ED said:
			
		

> My strategy would be to put the money in the bank earning interest and forget trying to make money on timeshares.



Well said!

The obvious answer (just like the sotck market) is to buy low and sell high.


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## Spence (Oct 25, 2006)

It's not easy, everything DaveM said.  
My formula is (and I'm continuously fine tuning it):
Buy timeshare X with Maintenance fee Y.
Purchase price is 2Y.
Annual rental price is 3Y.
It can be done.​


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## Spence (Oct 25, 2006)

3Y-Y=2Y=100%
Much better than the bank.​


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 25, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:
			
		

> Can anyone tell me any strategy to make money in timeshare?



Yes.  When you visit your timeshare, bring along some investment recommendations and reading materials with you.  Then, some evening when you are sitting in the living room at your timeshare, review the materials, and make some wise decisions about how to invest and allocate your money.

That is by far the best strategy to make money in timeshare.


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## Dave M (Oct 25, 2006)

Steve -

You crack me up! (And your advice is sound!)


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## m61376 (Oct 25, 2006)

T_R_Oglodyte said:
			
		

> Yes.  When you visit your timeshare, bring along some investment recommendations and reading materials with you.  Then, some evening when you are sitting in the living room at your timeshare, review the materials, and make some wise decisions about how to invest and allocate your money.
> 
> That is by far the best strategy to make money in timeshare.


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## FlyKaesan (Oct 25, 2006)

*that is what I want to know*



			
				Spence said:
			
		

> 3Y-Y=2Y=100%
> Much better than the bank.​




Doing exactly that is what I really want to know.  If you can email me and give me some clues?
I do have a friend who owned a timeshare in Southern Florida and rents every year to same couple from Canada.  Going through an agency he needs to pay fees but at the end, it comes out to be $1000 every year.  They use that or save that money for their vacation which costs way less than 1000 and they bought another timeshare.  There is got to be a way to make money since family do need condo, NOT hotel.  I am ok since I don't have child yet but when I have children, I am sure I will need condo.
At least if I can't make money, save much money as possible.  I look for rental deals but they are hard to come by.  Spending lots of time looking for low priced condo.  
I thought about investing money in bank or stock but I get killed buying stocks and hate receiving interest that I need to pay taxes on.
Maybe someone wants to go into Condo business with me?  Buy timeshare and rent them to travel agencies? or create web site?


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## Dave M (Oct 25, 2006)

The people who earlier in this thread advised you to put your money in the bank or invest it elsewhere were not being flip. That was serious advice. Making money at renting timeshares is not something you can do with a few tips. It takes the school of hard knocks to get there.

Spence is one of the true experts at renting successfully. However, I'm guessing he could spend a solid week with you and you might still lose money when you start. It's tough.

Forget about renting to travel agencies. It won't happen. Also entering joint business ventures with someone you meet on the Internet is a sure road to business failure. 

I believe the best advice you can get is to buy and enjoy a timeshare for your own use if you believe it fits for your lifestyle. Then some year when you decide not to use it, try renting it out. After doing that a couple of times, you can decide whether it makes sense to pursue renting on a larger scale.

There is no magic to Spence's formula. Buy for not more than twice the annual fees. Attempt to rent at three times the annual fees. It takes hard work to identify the rare opportunities to come close to that. You can study these forums to uncover some of the best places to buy timeshares. Due diligence is required for the rest.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 25, 2006)

It can be done, but it requires work, knowledge, contacts, persistence, and experience. 

Most of the people who hang out here own timeshares for enjoyment and pleasure - our ownership is not a financial investment.  There are a few people here who do make money from timeshare; those people are able to do so because they have done legwork and developed the expertise and knowledge to do so.  Some (most?) have lost money as part of their education process.  

What I'm getting at is don't be surprised if the people who do make money buying timeshares don't readily share thier tips and hints, especially when sharing that information means that they will be creating competitors.

*****

If someone posts here or sends you an e-mail providing info on how to ramp up the learning curve, consider yourself fortunate. 

But it's much more likely that if you want to make money at it, you will have to invest time, money, and financial risk to put yourself through the same learning curve that others have gone through.


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## FlyKaesan (Oct 25, 2006)

*thank you for valuable tips and advise*

Thank  you for all the postings.
Some were funny but most were educational.
I do believe I want to buy Timeshare but I hate to lose money by doing it.
I am doing my research and will be buying resale for sure.  
I did purchase timeshare this year and cancelled before 10 days so got my money back thanks to Tug BBS.
I will probably buy something that I can sell it almost at the same price I pay for.  Most likely buy it from Ebay but I did hear that most Ebay auctions are the ones that is not good deal.
I love Las Vegas, Atlantic City, Orlando but hate high MF.  Just want low maintenance fee so I can trade most of the time.

Well thanks for great tips...and keep them coming.  I am learning.....:whoopie:


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 25, 2006)

Orlando has so many timeshares that renting a week there would not make you any money at all.  

Ebay is a great place to buy timeshare, but be careful of sellers and pay money to a reputable closing/escrow company and not to a person.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Oct 25, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:
			
		

> I will probably buy something that I can sell it almost at the same price I pay for.  Most likely buy it from Ebay but I did hear that most Ebay auctions are the ones that is not good deal.
> I love Las Vegas, Atlantic City, Orlando but hate high MF.  Just want low maintenance fee so I can trade most of the time.
> 
> Well thanks for great tips...and keep them coming.  I am learning.....:whoopie:


Buying something you can resell for about the same price you paid is a lot easier than buying as an investment.  I think that most regulars here are probably able to do that. 

Actually making money off timeshare as an investment is much more difficult.  If it were easy, most of us here would be doing so.  Instead, I think the more common approach is to buy a timeshare for enjoyment, while being able to sell if need be with at worst a small loss.


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## geekette (Oct 26, 2006)

T_R_Oglodyte said:
			
		

> What I'm getting at is don't be surprised if the people who do make money buying timeshares don't readily share thier tips and hints, especially when sharing that information means that they will be creating competitors. /QUOTE]
> 
> That's the first thing that crossed my mind.  you may get some kind souls giving you tips, but to really know, to really learn, you'd have to jump in and do it and maybe lose your shirt.  Theory often doesn't equal reality.
> 
> Good luck!


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## trice01 (Nov 9, 2006)

*Effective Ownership*

Fly- my formula for timeshare ownership is simple. 
Multiply your initial ownership cost (including closing) by current money market rate. I used to use 5% back in the good old days. 
Add your annual maint fee. 
That is your true annual cost of ownership- maint plus interest lost on the purchase price if conservatively invested. 
My example- 
Purchase cost $3500= $175 annual lost interest
Maint fee= $500 annual
Total annual cost= $675. 
Walk in rental rate, per resort management= $1200 week

If you use it yourself, you save $525 per year over the general public. 
That is the margin you can play with in renting, to beat management's rental rate and make a profit. 
If you are confident you can sell at purchase price, you will be doing ok.


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## brother coony (Nov 9, 2006)

Yes It can be done but you cant have your cake and eat it too, meaning if you want good rental you will have high Mfs , I have a couple NYC Manhattan club new years week I rent at a profit but Mfs is as high as $1338  for the week and going up but so far I have been able to rent at a profit I have friends who own in the hamptons area (Gurneys-inn)  but you have to get a week in July OR August  only,So if you can get a week at a given time of year say Daytona when Daytona 500  week you will do ok, next Resort must be Gold crown or 5 star amust, MFs will be high but if there is a high demant every year at that time you can make out ontill they flood the place with hotels and other timeshare,like HGVC now is puting a timeshare one black from the Manhattan club and AFFINITY  is now a couple blocks away in NYC
brother c


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## gmarine (Nov 9, 2006)

You dont necessarily have to have expensive maintenance fees to have high rental fees.There are a few exceptions.
 Owners at St James Club Antigua will routinely rent two bedroom villas for $2500 per week. This is less than 50% of the $6000 per week the resort gets. 

Maintenance fees for 2006 were $475. However, the low fees, high rental rates and spectacular resort along with terrific management means very few resales, if any, on the market.

I dont know if you will find another resort that can be rented for more than 5X the maintenance fee.


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## Spence (Nov 9, 2006)

gmarine said:
			
		

> I dont know if you will find another resort that can be rented for more than 5X the maintenance fee.


Of my fall rentals to gen'l public (not TUGgers), 33% were at about 4xMF with the remaining 66% at 5xMF or higher, one was even 17xMF, go figure.  Maybe my pencil's been too sharp.


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## GreenMum (Nov 9, 2006)

Spence said:
			
		

> Of my fall rentals to gen'l public (not TUGgers), 33% were at about 4xMF with the remaining 66% at 5xMF or higher, one was even 17xMF, go figure.  Maybe my pencil's been too sharp.



This takes a lot of time & effort though doesn't it, Spence.  About how much?


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## Spence (Nov 9, 2006)

GreenMum said:
			
		

> This takes a lot of time & effort though doesn't it, Spence.  About how much?


Well, it's not every waking minute, but it's a lot.


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## gmarine (Nov 9, 2006)

Spence said:
			
		

> Of my fall rentals to gen'l public (not TUGgers), 33% were at about 4xMF with the remaining 66% at 5xMF or higher, one was even 17xMF, go figure.  Maybe my pencil's been too sharp.



Where are you talking about? Explain how 17X maintenance fee is possible and where you are getting 5X the fees.


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## Carol C (Nov 11, 2006)

Fly, E=MC2.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 11, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:
			
		

> Doing exactly that is what I really want to know.  If you can email me and give me some clues?
> I do have a friend who owned a timeshare in Southern Florida and rents every year to same couple from Canada.  Going through an agency he needs to pay fees but at the end, it comes out to be $1000 every year.  They use that or save that money for their vacation which costs way less than 1000 and they bought another timeshare.  There is got to be a way to make money since family do need condo, NOT hotel.  I am ok since I don't have child yet but when I have children, I am sure I will need condo.
> At least if I can't make money, save much money as possible.  I look for rental deals but they are hard to come by.  Spending lots of time looking for low priced condo.
> I thought about investing money in bank or stock but I get killed buying stocks and hate receiving interest that I need to pay taxes on.
> Maybe someone wants to go into Condo business with me?  Buy timeshare and rent them to travel agencies? or create web site?



What Spence does is not easy.  And, it's not necessary.  For the average timesharer, a 25% return on invested capital is more attainable and still much better than most investment alternatives.  And, it's passive income, so no social security tax and it offsets other passive income from other real estate rental properties you may have.  Almost nobody achieves 100% return for rentals with any significant volume.  50% is doable if you are extremely good.  100% is only for the top 5 in all of timesharing.  I think Spence is the top dog.

Now, I am talking about owning your own TS for rentals.  If you go into rental brokering, you can do much better than 100% return on invested capital.  But, it's a lot more of a pain.  No capital investment for the TS.  A lot lower revenue per transaction.  The biggest issue is ensuring that the lessor doesn't back out last minute.  You need signficant automation to pull that off.

My favorite model is buying to flip, getting a free week, renting or using it and then selling the TS for a good profit.

But, the best business model of them all is charging people to take their TS, never putting them into your name, selling them on eBay and transferring the TS to the new owner without ever having an asset on your balance sheet.  That is an impresive business model.


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 11, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> But, the best business model of them all is charging people to take their TS, never putting them into your name, selling them on eBay and transferring the TS to the new owner without ever having an asset on your balance sheet.  That is an impresive business model.



You would think, by now, most people would have heard about eBay. Or at least knew how to search for a similar sale.


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## Rent_Share (Nov 12, 2006)

Steamboat Bill said:
			
		

> You would think, by now, most people would have heard about eBay. Or at least knew how to search for a similar sale.



And the ability to search the inernet before paying 5 Times the Resale Price by being pressured into an "investment" at a 90 minute cult recruiting session.

They probably have already paid a seller's fee to list at a ridiculous listing price yet the maintenance fees continue to come due with no end in sight, even death will pass this liability to their heirs  . . . . .

The TUG comunity is the top 1 % (or less) of the timeshare communty, there are thousands that continue to get fleeced daily, either on the front end or the back end of the transaction.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 12, 2006)

Rent_Share said:
			
		

> And the ability to search the inernet before paying 5 Times the Resale Price by being ressured into an "investment" at a 90 minute cult recruiting session.
> 
> They probably have already paid a seller's fee to list at a ridiculous listing price yet the maintenance fees continue to come due with no end in sight, even death will pass this liability to their heirs  . . . . .
> 
> The TUG comunity is the top 1 % (or less) of the timeshare communty, there are thousands that continue to get fleeced daily, either on the front end or the back end of the transaction.



Don't forget about the middle.  When resort developers charge a few thousand dollars to convert to points, that's when owners get fleeced in the middle.  They also get fleeced when they deposit a very high value week into an exchange company and then do a double or triple trade down since there are so few good alternatives available for their week.  Think 4 seasons or Disney.


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## mesamirage (Nov 12, 2006)

*Free Vacations*



			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> My favorite model is buying to flip, getting a free week, renting or using it and then selling the TS for a good profit.
> quote]
> 
> This is also my *favorite model* even more so if you calculate taking free vacations as the REAL return on your investment of money, time and energy.  I have been into Timeshares for almost 2 years, and we have bought and sold 2, both for a small profit but enjoyed GREAT family vacations with the banked or current weeks that came with the purchase.
> ...


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## Rent_Share (Nov 12, 2006)

> My favorite model is buying to flip, getting a free week, renting or using it and then selling the TS for a good profit.
> 
> That is what makes TS flips the best model.  Money comes and goes, FREE vacations at true 5 star resorts, never paying a maintence fee, with family is priceless.



Most of the ebay listings I see, want current year's maintenace fees paid as a condition of closing, not sure I am following "never" paying a maintenace fee in the flip ?


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 12, 2006)

Rent_Share said:
			
		

> Most of the ebay listings I see, want current year's maintenace fees paid as a condition of closing, not sure I am following "never" paying a maintenace fee in the flip ?



In timesharing everything is negotiable.  What you say may be true on eBay, but it's not true everywhere else you can buy.  On my very first timeshare purchase, I got the weeks for free (or included with the puchase price).  It does happen frequently if you simply ask for it.


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## Spence (Nov 12, 2006)

gmarine said:
			
		

> Where are you talking about? Explain how 17X maintenance fee is possible and where you are getting 5X the fees.


MF x 17 = Rental Price.  Williamsburg.


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 13, 2006)

This obviously is not a Marriott property as the MF = $700


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 13, 2006)

Steamboat Bill said:
			
		

> This obviously is not a Marriott property as the MF = $700



My guess is that it's a points based TS for 5-nights excluding the weekend during Thanksgiving week in a 4 bedroom unit split between 2 families for $2500.


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## Spence (Nov 13, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> My guess is that it's a points based TS for 5-nights excluding the weekend during Thanksgiving week in a 4 bedroom unit split between 2 families for $2500.


Some people are just smarter than others.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 13, 2006)

I think Spence has given enough information for anyone to figure out what he is doing.  That type of information is usually very valuable and people are usually willing to pay money for it.

I've been able to reverse engineer what he's done.  But, I haven't figured out how to replicate it or I would.  He is in a very enviable and defensible position.  If it weren't, he wouldn't be giving out the info he has already.


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## Spence (Nov 13, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> I think Spence has given enough information for anyone to figure out what he is doing.  That type of information is usually very valuable and people are usually willing to pay money for it.  I've been able to reverse engineer what he's done.  But, I haven't figured out how to replicate it or I would.  He is in a very enviable and defensible position.  If it weren't, he wouldn't be giving out the info he has already.


Boca is on the money.  I have a broker for my self directed IRA because I don't know how to put my TS into an IRA.  He's a contrarian and want's to know if I need any investors.  I'm not sure what my parents have to do with my TSs, but thanks for asking gmarine!


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## gmarine (Nov 13, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> I don't know about that.  I think Spence has given enough information for anyone to figure out what he is doing.  That type of information is usually very valuable and people are usually willing to pay money for it.
> 
> I've been able to reverse engineer what he's done.  But, I haven't figured out how to replicate it or I would.  He is in a very enviable and defensible position.  If it weren't, he wouldn't be giving out the info he has already.



This thread is asking about cash flow at a resort. What is the point of posting that you rented for 17X fees without telling the resort and at least some detail of how it was done ? The only info he gave was that it was 17X fees. Nothing else.

Isnt TUG about posting information to help others?  I ask how it was done and I get a sarcastic response from Spence and more sarcastic PMs from him.


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## Spence (Nov 13, 2006)

[_Message deleted. Please follow the BBS "Be Courteous" rule. Also, posting a private conversation without permission is not appropriate._ Dave M, BBS Administrator]


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## gmarine (Nov 13, 2006)

I have no idea why you found the need to send me insulting PMs when all I did was ask you how you got 17X a MF in rent. This is my last post in this thread.


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## Spence (Nov 13, 2006)

[_Message deleted. Please follow the BBS "Be Courteous" rule._ Dave M, BBS Administrator]


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 13, 2006)

wow...what a hot thread...how about starting a new thread:

"What is the highest (Rental $/MF) ratio you have gotten.

17x is awesome....perhaps someone else can beat it (not me).


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## Jya-Ning (Nov 13, 2006)

The old way, FF maybe able to beat it.  With grandfather Plantimun VIP (allow to be reached through resell) and unrestriction in upgrade (you can get 3 BR using one bedroom point) plus 50% discount.  Now they take away the unlimted upgrade if owner is not the one use it.  And you no longer be able to get in without at least one retail purchase.  

I will be more interested on where Spence advertises them.  I bet all these developers will like to know also.  Since it represents one of the best customer group, that can afford spending and has little or no knowledge of TS (at least in exchange part)  But I am pretty sure this infomation Spence should not say to any of us even if he now decide to retire from the whole process.:ignore:   And since he has a lot of rentals, some of the advertisement method become cheaper.

Jya-Ning


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## Carol C (Nov 13, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:
			
		

> Thank  you for all the postings.
> Some were funny but most were educational.
> I do believe I want to buy Timeshare but I hate to lose money by doing it.
> I am doing my research and will be buying resale for sure.
> ...



Marriott Vacation Club is in all three of the destinations you love. Why don't you buy a Marriott lock-out on the resale market and exchange the 1 br for Vegas or Atlantic City? You can then easily exchange the studio side for a 2 br in Orlando. Not to rent out, of course. You could also rent out the 1 br of the lock-off Marriott resort you buy (say, a Desert Springs unit at a nice time of year), and then keep the studio side to exchange for a nice vacation for yourself each year. I suggest you buy platinum season MVCI, especially if you intend to rent out your unit or part of your unit. Best of luck to ya!


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 13, 2006)

Jya-Ning, Spence gave away his secrets for listing his rentals very recently.   

Do a Google search on timeshare rentals or vacation rentals and see what comes up first, those will be the best sites to rent.


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## myip (Nov 14, 2006)

You can get 6-7% return for renting out DVC points - calculated including the purchase cost.


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 14, 2006)

myip said:
			
		

> You can get 6-7% return for renting out DVC points - calculated including the purchase cost.



DVC
Cost per point = $86, Lost opportunity @ 5% = $4.30pp
MF = $4.20pp
Total cost = $8.50 per point (assuming that you can always resell your points for $86pp)

Rental of DVC points is $10-$11pp

Thus,

@ $10pp rental = 17.6 % Return
@ $11pp rental = 29.4% Return


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## Spence (Nov 14, 2006)

Steamboat Bill said:
			
		

> DVC
> Cost per point = $86, Lost opportunity @ 5% = $4.30pp
> MF = $4.20pp
> Total cost = $8.50 per point (assuming that you can always resell your points for $86pp)
> ...


While these are nice numbers and YxMF is a nice mark as discussed earlier in the thread, neither is a mark of ROI-Return on Investment or 'Return'.  

SBB, don't you need to take the annual gross of say $11, subtract the annual expenses of $4.20 (plus advertising or any other costs) and divide that sum by the investment of $86.  That yields a ROI (or Return) of only 8% on your better example.  DaveM or some other CPA type weigh in here.


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## Spence (Nov 14, 2006)

myip said:
			
		

> You can get 6-7% return for renting out DVC points - calculated including the purchase cost.


This is more in line with the way I think it should be  figured, the other seems more like TS Salesman math.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 14, 2006)

Steamboat Bill said:
			
		

> wow...what a hot thread...how about starting a new thread:
> 
> "What is the highest (Rental $/MF) ratio you have gotten.
> 
> 17x is awesome....perhaps someone else can beat it (not me).



I beat it all the time.  I often times rent a week that I get for free in the purchase of a timeshare.  I just did it yesterday.  That would be infinity times MF.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 14, 2006)

Spence said:
			
		

> While these are nice numbers and YxMF is a nice mark as discussed earlier in the thread, neither is a mark of ROI-Return on Investment or 'Return'.
> 
> SBB, don't you need to take the annual gross of say $11, subtract the annual expenses of $4.20 (plus advertising or any other costs) and divide that sum by the investment of $86.  That yields a ROI (or Return) of only 8% on your better example.  DaveM or some other CPA type weigh in here.



Spence, this is more correct.  And, you need to add in the closing costs and other fees into the cost basis of the upfront capital purchase.  That will lower the return on capital.


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 14, 2006)

Spence said:
			
		

> SBB, don't you need to take the annual gross of say $11, subtract the annual expenses of $4.20 (plus advertising or any other costs) and divide that sum by the investment of $86.  That yields a ROI (or Return) of only 8% on your better example.  DaveM or some other CPA type weigh in here.



Just spining the numbers in a different way.

How about this:

Pure profit =$2pp divided by cost per point of $86pp = 2.3% ROI

DVC is NOT cheap. However, NOW is the BEST time to buy as the price has been reduced to $86pp vs the $104 a few months ago. When AKL is opened, the price will jump back to over $100.

I love DVC as a family vacation, but it is NOT a great deal for people trying to rent them out.


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## Spence (Nov 14, 2006)

Steamboat Bill said:
			
		

> Just spining the numbers in a different way.
> How about this:
> Pure profit =$2pp divided by cost per point of $86pp = 2.3% ROI
> DVC is NOT cheap. However, NOW is the BEST time to buy as the price has been reduced to $86pp vs the $104 a few months ago. When AKL is opened, the price will jump back to over $100.
> I love DVC as a family vacation, but it is NOT a great deal for people trying to rent them out.


You've gone from one extreme to another and I don't agree with either, you must be a MD!  I do agree with your last statement.


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## Dave M (Nov 14, 2006)

SBB -

The "pure" annual profit, assuming rental income of $10.50, is $6.30, not $2.00. I think you have erroneously deducted the opportunity cost of investing that $86 elsewhere. That's double counting since it's a single $86 investment.

Your calculation would be correct if the aim were to compare income from this purchase with income from an alternative purchase. However, the aim is to calculate the return on this investment. Thus, Spence's calculation (post #48) is appropriate.


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## JudyS (Nov 15, 2006)

With the  DVC, there's also the fact that the resort is RTU and ownership will evaporate in 2042 or 2054.  So, if you intend to hold on to your ownership until it expires, you need to depreciate the original purchase price.  If you intend to sell before the RTU expires, you have to guess at what the selling price will be when you sell.  When you add in depreciation, the standard rental rate of $10 a DVC point is ridiculously low.


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 15, 2006)

JudyS said:
			
		

> When you add in depreciation, the standard rental rate of $10 a DVC point is ridiculously low.



I 100% agree with that statement. In fact, my frequent posts on DIS trying to increase the rental rates got me banned from DISboards.

In 2000, the purchase price for DVC was $74pp and MF was $3. Ther rental rates were $10 on DIS.

In 2006, the purchase price is now $86 and MF is $4, but the rental rates are STUCK at $10 on DIS.

DISboard members are usually happy if they can simply recoup their MF, let alone recoup lost opportunity costs or ever make a profit.


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## Spence (Nov 16, 2006)

Steamboat Bill said:
			
		

> I 100% agree with that statement. In fact, my frequent posts on DIS trying to increase the rental rates got me banned from DISboards.
> In 2000, the purchase price for DVC was $74pp and MF was $3. Ther rental rates were $10 on DIS.
> In 2006, the purchase price is now $86 and MF is $4, but the rental rates are STUCK at $10 on DIS.
> DISboard members are usually happy if they can simply recoup their MF, let alone recoup lost opportunity costs or ever make a profit.


This is the same sort of problem I have, I'd like to get 50% of the rack rate at the resort, but so many people, and there are so many people, just want to get their MF back, it's ridiculous.


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 16, 2006)

Spence said:
			
		

> This is the same sort of problem I have, I'd like to get 50% of the rack rate at the resort, but so many people, and there are so many people, just want to get their MF back, it's ridiculous.



This is why I feel more "welcome home" at TUG than I feel at DISboards.

I was going to sell one of my two 250 point contracts this year, but when DVC lowered the buy-it-now price $15pp, I decided to wait until the AKL units go on sale for over $100.

I still love DVC, but I am no longer a 1,000 point club member as I sold 2 contracts last year and want to sell one more.

As long as I have kids, I will probably always keep at least one contract.


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 16, 2006)

Here is a perfect example of despiration on DIS:

I am NOT going to post a link, but if you go to the DVC Rent-Trade forum, it was on the first page of posts that has a thread titled:

Points for Rent: $6. a point 

Then a newbie creats a post that they think the $6 rate is TOO high and wants a LOWER price.

Geezeee, with MF of $4pp and a buy-in price of $86pp, the DVC RENTERS are saving $$$ at the expense of DVC owners.

I believe the break even rental is $9-10pp and realistically, the rental rates should be in the $12-14 range.


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## Carl D (Nov 17, 2006)

Steamboat Bill said:
			
		

> Here is a perfect example of despiration on DIS:
> 
> I am NOT going to post a link, but if you go to the DVC Rent-Trade forum, it was on the first page of posts that has a thread titled:
> 
> ...


Now, the rest of the story--

Those points expire in 13 days. 

That explains the $6/pt, however the person asking for a lower price really shouldn't complain about price since they are looking to visit in November anyway.


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## Carol C (Nov 17, 2006)

Hey, what happened to Fly the OP?


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## FlyKaesan (Nov 24, 2006)

*I am BACK!!!!!*

Ok guys.  I was hoping to get lots of responses but didn't imagine this many people would respond.  I have been away for some time...sorry.
Thank you for continuing to educate me.  Well, and others too?

Spence, if you ever have time to teach me in person or meet me, I will buy you lunch???  and maybe you can give me more advises or go into some business?  I live only 20 minutes from you!!!

So, where have I been lately?  Just went to Corpus Christi to spend some time with my parents.  My parents work very hard but one of few honest poor parents.  Did anyone read Rich Dad and Poor Dad?  Yup, my father was a teacher and he became poor trying to teach and help others.  Anyways, didn't have timeshare so couldn't stay at a condo by the beach.  Great fishing city.  Also, just last weekend, sold my Ferrari.  I will miss it much but she will be happy in West coast.

Where am I going next?  Taking my father to Las Vegas in few weeks.  He has never been there.  Tried to look for TS but too expensive...hehehe  but guess what...  I got 3 nights free during the weekend across from Bellagio.  Got the Jet Blue from DC to LAS = $177!!!!  what a vacation!  spending only 177 for 4 days 3 nights.


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## FlyKaesan (Nov 28, 2006)

*share secret?*

Would anyone want to share some of their secret of making money in timeshare?

I think there is always something someone can do to make money.  I am not good in business but I am good at listening.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 28, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:
			
		

> Would anyone want to share some of their secret of making money in timeshare?
> 
> I think there is always something someone can do to make money.  I am not good in business but I am good at listening.



There are people out there who can teach you how to make enough money in timesharing to quit your job and move to Hawaii.  But, they take a percentage of your income for that knowledge and expertise.  And, it is worth every penny because you will be talking about vacationing every day of the week instead of just 2 or 3 weeks per year.


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## BocaBum99 (Nov 28, 2006)

I forgot to mention.  All the knowledge you need is right here on TUG.  If you don't want it spoon fed, you just need to listen to those on this board who are doing it.


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## Steamboat Bill (Nov 29, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> I forgot to mention.  All the knowledge you need is right here on TUG.  If you don't want it spoon fed, you just need to listen to those on this board who are doing it.



You, obviously, listened very well....


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## brucecz (Nov 29, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:
			
		

> Would anyone want to share some of their secret of making money in timeshare?



Then it would not be a secert anymore.

Listen closely to Boca, Spence and a quite a few others over a period of time and you should pickup certain patterns of the sucessfull buyer-sellers and renters.

But I am given to understand that alot of upfront work needs to be done to be sucessfull. It is sort of like a garden, you first have to put a certain of  knownledgeable effort to get a  certain amount of harvest.

I am also given to understand that some timesharers besides liking the taxable profits from flipping and renting also love the non taxable savings of staying at prime timeshares in prime times for less than hotel rates and other timeshare related non taxable possible Points savings.

Bruce


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## FlyKaesan (Nov 30, 2006)

*Hawaii???*

I love Hawaii!!!

quit my job and I can move to Hawaii and earn money???  HOW???  I need to pay to learn?  How much?  As long as it is affordable and proven, I could try it.  If you don't try, you NEVER have chance to succeed.  And don't we all want to succeed?
My ears are yours.  I did read few postings and I am getting confused cuz you guys are using abbrev.  <--- is that abbreviation too?  hehehe  kidding!
anyways, now I know where to look.  DVC watch out, here I come!!!!!  they have point system???  man, I got so much to learn!!!!

so if anyone wants to give me tutor, let me know the hourly rate...hahaha kidding.  I could buy you Buffet lunch at Las Vegas???

I know I could learn from reading but doesn't everyone want to know right away?  Reading could be deceiving so you have to filter out things and that is the hard part. 

THANX!!!!


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## Carl D (Dec 1, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:
			
		

> DVC watch out, here I come!!!!!  they have point system???  man, I got so much to learn!!!!


Okay, here's lesson #1:
DVC does not allow booking for the purpose of commercial rentals. If a pattern of rental is discovered by DVC, (DVC does look for it) the reservation will be cancelled followed by a letter from the legal department.


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## FlyKaesan (Dec 1, 2006)

*DVC not good*

Ok.....I learned and de-learned.

No DVC for me.  
Is it possible to get DVC from RCI point trade?


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## Carl D (Dec 2, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:
			
		

> Is it possible to get DVC from RCI point trade?


I don't think so, as DVC uses II as it's exchange company.


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## Spence (Dec 2, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:
			
		

> I love Hawaii!!!  quit my job and I can move to Hawaii and earn money???  HOW???


Get a job.


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## Spence (Dec 2, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:
			
		

> Would anyone want to share some of their secret of making money in timeshare?  I think there is always something someone can do to make money.  I am not good in business but I am good at listening.


Train to be a psychiatrist.


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## e.bram (Dec 2, 2006)

Buy Cendant stock.


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## Dave M (Dec 2, 2006)

Not a good choice. Cendant stock no longer exists!


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 2, 2006)

Dude....here is some of my best advice for you.

SLOW down, read TUG for a few weeks without posting anything. Then start slowly posting a few messages and get involved.

Use a grammar and spelling checker and break your thoughts into separate paragraphs. I find reading your posts very taxing as you seem to type whatever jumps into your brain.

Don't believe everything you read and don't jump into a TS program or think about moving to Hawaii to make $ in this industry.

I have met several TUG and TS4M members and the pros are very intellignet and know exactly what they are doing. Making money off TS is not easy. 

I simply like using my TS to beat the system and stay at nice locations on holiday. If I manage to flip a property or rent a week for profit...then that is a bonus.




			
				FlyKaesan said:
			
		

> I love Hawaii!!!
> 
> quit my job and I can move to Hawaii and earn money???  HOW???  I need to pay to learn?  How much?  As long as it is affordable and proven, I could try it.  If you don't try, you NEVER have chance to succeed.  And don't we all want to succeed?
> My ears are yours.  I did read few postings and I am getting confused cuz you guys are using abbrev.  <--- is that abbreviation too?  hehehe  kidding!
> ...


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 2, 2006)

JudyS said:
			
		

> When you add in depreciation, the standard rental rate of $10 a DVC point is ridiculously low.



Do you mean that the $10 per point rental is not high enough to justify it as a good investment vehicle?

I believe the standard rental rate of $10 per point is highway robbery.  It should be more like $4-5/point for comparable value at other resorts even given its premium.  That's why I don't rent DVC points.

But, the market has decided that $10/point is the right level.  So, $10 per point for rentals is the right amount.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 2, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> Do you mean that the $10 per point rental is not high enough to justify it as a good investment vehicle?
> 
> I believe the standard rental rate of $10 per point is highway robbery.  It should be more like $4-5/point for comparable value at other resorts even given its premium.  That's why I don't rent DVC points.
> 
> But, the market has decided that $10/point is the right level.  So, $10 per point for rentals is the right amount.



This is one sore topic for me as I feel the rental rate should be in the $12-13 pp and $9-10pp is way to low. You could rent DVC points for $10pp back in 2000 and there has been little change since, yet the buy-in price has risen over 30%.

I agree that DVC is an expensive TS as compared to Bluegreen, WM, Marriott, Hilton, and hundreds of others in Orlando, but to get a real "apples to apples" comparison, you have to compare the cost of renting the same unit for cash from Disney vs the cost of owning or even renting points for DVC.

I think most comparisons will show a real savings by buying or renting DVC points as compared to paying rack rate, or even AAA rates to stay on-site for Disney properties. When you factor in inflation and the outrageous tax and associated fees of staying in a Disney property, the savings increase even more. This was one of the main reasons I bought DVC years ago.

Even though I like DVC for personal vacations, the math does not support buying DVC to rent or flip or even try to make a quick profit.

Buy-in rate = $86pp = $4.30pp lost opportunity cost @5%
MF = $4.12pp

Thus, the true cost is $8.42pp if you think you can resell your contract in the future for the same amount you paid.

If you keep DVC for the entire 50 years, then your contract expires and you own nothing. Thus the real depreciation cost is an additional $1.72pp

Using this method, the true cost is $10.14pp


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## Jya-Ning (Dec 3, 2006)

I believe SEC define TS as not for investment purpose.

DVC is close to trophy.  Don't know how you measure the value of a trophy.



			
				Steamboat Bill said:
			
		

> Even though I like DVC for personal vacations, the math does not support buying DVC to rent or flip or even try to make a quick profit.




Jya-Ning


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## FlyKaesan (Dec 3, 2006)

*dvc*

DISNEY BOARDWALK VILLAS! DISNEY VACATION CLUB DVC.
45 points per year.  what is good price for it?
Maintenance Fees (dollars): 	
211.00


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## Carl D (Dec 3, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:
			
		

> DISNEY BOARDWALK VILLAS! DISNEY VACATION CLUB DVC.
> 45 points per year.  what is good price for it?
> Maintenance Fees (dollars):
> 211.00


If you are paying less than $80/point, it probably won't make it through ROFR.
45 points is a small contract. It won't do much of anything unless you use it every third year with banking & borrowing.


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 3, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:
			
		

> DISNEY BOARDWALK VILLAS! DISNEY VACATION CLUB DVC.
> 45 points per year.  what is good price for it?
> Maintenance Fees (dollars):
> 211.00



The lowest I would offer would be $85pp.

If you are NOT a DVC owner, then the offer should probably be around $90pp as DVC is activly exercising ROFR for all <100point contracts for non-DVC owners. If you are an owner already, you may slide thru.

Small contracts are only good for the ability to transfer points into your account. This is better than renting points as you control the reservation yourself.


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## Jya-Ning (Dec 4, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:
			
		

> DISNEY BOARDWALK VILLAS! DISNEY VACATION CLUB DVC.
> 45 points per year.  what is good price for it?
> Maintenance Fees (dollars):
> 211.00



You need to figure out why you want to own a TS to start with before you can decide what is a good price.

Use Spence's model (3Y). The highest price you should willing to pay for DVC is no more than $8 per point (MF is $4.69, loss use in 30 years, so add your price / 30 into that, your purchase price can not be more than that.  It is very pratical to get more than 3 of that amount if you reserve the week and rent it out).  Of course, you will never be able to get pass Disney.

If you plan to flip it.  Then the level Disney will excerise it ROFR is your good price.  You will try to test a value a little lower than that.  If it is lower than the price your buyer will pay, than it maybe workable.

If you plan to spectuale, and say you assume it will go to $100 in 2 year, and you want to sell, than level Disney will excerise it ROFR is your good price.  You will try to test a value a little lower than that.  If you do that, chances are, you will in the loss end most of the time though.

If you plan to use it just for the saving since you have to stay inside the Big Mouse, then you can create an equation using the current MF, the opportunate loss, the possible loss when you sell that one, and you will know what is the max number you can pay but still gives you a comforable saving range.  I usually use 90% of the avg. price I am willing to pay in a hotel room before hotel tax for 2 BD calc.,  If that is the case, I don't think Disney will accept though since I am definitely not willing to pay their rack rate to saty in Orlando.  But if you are willing, then your figure may pass their avg ROFR ($86) level, so you can try see how bad you want it now.

If you plan to use it as trophy, than any price you can afford is a good price, including developer's price, as long as you study Disney and complete feel comfortable about that company.

Jya-Ning


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 4, 2006)

Steamboat Bill said:
			
		

> This is one sore topic for me as I feel the rental rate should be in the $12-13 pp and $9-10pp is way to low. You could rent DVC points for $10pp back in 2000 and there has been little change since, yet the buy-in price has risen over 30%.
> 
> I agree that DVC is an expensive TS as compared to Bluegreen, WM, Marriott, Hilton, and hundreds of others in Orlando, but to get a real "apples to apples" comparison, you have to compare the cost of renting the same unit for cash from Disney vs the cost of owning or even renting points for DVC.
> 
> ...



Yep, that's why there is a supply and demand curve.  As long as people are willing to pay $10/point, then that's what they're worth.

To me, they are worth about $4-5/point.  Since I can't get them at that level, I don't.  

I usually go when I can get a nice Flexchange so it costs only about $300-400 for the week.

Or, I'll do some direct exchanges with DVC owners to have them book me what I need.  I'll bet that there is at least one DVC owner who would trade me 250 DVC points to stay at the Bluegreen Wilderness Club in Ridgedale, MO in a 2 bedroom cabin for July 4th week.  The Disney Wilderness Lodge is nice, but you can't beat actually being in the Wilderness.  That 2 bedroom Cabin costs me $500 for the week.  It rents from the resort for over $500/night.  If I do that direct exchange, those DVC points cost me $2/point.

Here are some pictures of the Bluegreen Wilderness Club at Big Cedar:

Pictures of the Bluegreen Wilderness Club

Pictures of a 3 bedroom Cabin

Pictures of Big Cedar Lodge


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## Steamboat Bill (Dec 4, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> The Disney Wilderness Lodge is nice, but you can't beat actually being in the Wilderness.  That 2 bedroom Cabin costs me $500 for the week.  It rents from the resort for over $500/night.  If I do that direct exchange, those DVC points cost me $2/point.



$2pp for DVC is the LOWEST I have ever seen....I should be glad I was able to rent mine for $10-11pp last year.

The pictures of the Bluegreen Wilderness Club at Big Cedar look awesome, I did not realize how nice this area is.


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## Carl D (Dec 4, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> I'll bet that there is at least one DVC owner who would trade me 250 DVC points to stay at the Bluegreen Wilderness Club in Ridgedale, MO in a 2 bedroom cabin for July 4th week.  The Disney Wilderness Lodge is nice, but you can't beat actually being in the Wilderness.


According to my point charts, 250 points for July 4th week is a steal.

Your pictures of Big Cedar are very nice, and I agree that it's nice to actually be in the wilderness. 
With that said, IMO, the actual Big Cedar lodge is lacking in comparison to Disney's.
Now, if you put Disney's lodge in Big Cedar's setting, you would really have something!


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## KenK (Dec 4, 2006)

Fly
  Your dads a teacher?  Is he also a vet?  

The old Cendant (now spinoff Wynham) RCI div has several site where they RENT leftover trimeshare  (not usually prime time, either) for $299 or less a week for up to a 2 bed 2 bath unit.

Check these sites for him, and see whats available.  (BTW- members of RCI or II or other exchange companies may get these weks for even less

RCI=

www.getravelop.com  ( for local, muni, county, state & all Canadian gov employees & retired)

www.afvclub.com  (for all USA Fed, all US Armed Forces, & retired)

www.veteransholidays.com  (All US veterans)

and RCI has the same site for dozens of other 'affiliate groups' (like Alumni & so on)

II & Trading Places:

www.govarm.com 

And of course all the exchange companies ALSO rent to the general public for a bit more than above.

So.....this can be seen as some competition to your idea.  But, of course, you will get to rent much better weeks for rent than offered by these different companies.

And also realize, once you own a T/S and join an exchange company, you will be able to rent extra vacations, getaway weeks from them for very little per week.....during Thanksgiving Week, I saw several 2 bed 2 bath FF AC units for less than $200  a week.   (Via RCI...II is usually more expensive)

Keep reading about T/S...before you buy anything.


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## FlyKaesan (Dec 29, 2006)

*Found something*

I am still researching and reading.

I found something that is not DVC.  As I was looking to goto St. John or Nassau, Bahamas, or Aruba, I found Marriott rental is around 2-3000 range for a week.  So I looked for MF and it was around 600 to 900.  If there is sale for those Marriott for less than 5k, then I could make profit within few years.
To my surprise, there was 3 that was on sale for 4500.

Do you think that is good idea?  If it doesn't rent, I can go and vacation myself.

Let me know what you think.


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## Spence (Dec 29, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:


> I am still researching and reading.
> I found something that is not DVC.  As I was looking to goto St. John or Nassau, Bahamas, or Aruba, I found Marriott rental is around 2-3000 range for a week.  So I looked for MF and it was around 600 to 900.  If there is sale for those Marriott for less than 5k, then I could make profit within few years.
> To my surprise, there was 3 that was on sale for 4500.
> Do you think that is good idea?  If it doesn't rent, I can go and vacation myself.
> Let me know what you think.


I think you should keep researching and reading.  If it were as easy as you seem to think, everyone would be doing it.  Marriott has no TS in SJ or Nas, to my knowledge.  By the time you determine that your Marriott Aruba isn't renting it's too late to get a decent airfare to do it yourself.  You'll probably only be able to get half as much as Marriott commands for their rentals.


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## m61376 (Dec 29, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:


> I am still researching and reading.
> 
> I found something that is not DVC.  As I was looking to goto St. John or Nassau, Bahamas, or Aruba, I found Marriott rental is around 2-3000 range for a week.  So I looked for MF and it was around 600 to 900.  If there is sale for those Marriott for less than 5k, then I could make profit within few years.
> To my surprise, there was 3 that was on sale for 4500.
> ...



As posted by Spence, there aren't Marriotts in St. John or Nassau; even gardenview Gold Aruba weeks go for considerably more than 5K. If you saw 3 "on sale" for $4500 you may have been looking at advertised rental rates for a single week's use- sometimes the ads can be a bit confusing.


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## FlyKaesan (Dec 29, 2006)

http://www.vacationclub.com/resorts/uv/default.jsp

I don't think this would be anything close to 5k but I would be interested if it goes resale.

Spence!!!  welcome back!

if I had Marriott in Williamsburg, va, would I be able to trade to other Marriott without any fees or restrictions?


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## Spence (Dec 30, 2006)

FlyKaesan said:


> http://www.vacationclub.com/resorts/uv/default.jsp
> I don't think this would be anything close to 5k but I would be interested if it goes resale.


You've got to be smoking something.


FlyKaesan said:


> if I had Marriott in Williamsburg, va, would I be able to trade to other Marriott without any fees or restrictions?


Trading Marriotts (except for the Florida Club) goes through Interval International, all their annual fees and per exchange fees apply.  Marriott to Marriott exchanges in II have a window where only Mariott owners can 'see' availability before all other II members have a chance.


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## FlyKaesan (Jan 1, 2007)

*is this good deal?*

Is this good deal?

Marriott Vacation Club International extends to you this exclusive invitation.

5 Days & 4 Nights
in St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands
For Only $499!

http://www.vacationclub.com/stthomas/packageOffer.jsp
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also went to SpiritAir.com and got a quote for buy 1 and get 1 free.

04/28/2007	NK807 Washington Dc/Reagan National (DCA) to Fort Lauderdale/Miami Area (FLL) 	7:30 AM-9:52 AM	Economy	901
04/28/2007	NK259 Fort Lauderdale/Miami Area (FLL) to St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands (STT) 	10:45 AM-1:25 PM	Economy	1107
05/10/2007	NK816 St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands (STT) to Washington Dc/Reagan National (DCA)
1 Stop in Ft. Lauderdale/Hollywood International (FLL)	2:50 PM-9:59 PM	Economy	1593

Number of Passengers:	 	1
Airfare+: 		$268.00
Taxes and Fees:		$39.60	 (what's this?)
Travel Insurance++:		$12.00	 (Tell me more)
Total:		$307.60


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## Miss Marty (Jan 17, 2007)

*
Interesting Thread and very interesting posts....*



Spence said:


> Of my fall rentals to gen'l public (not TUGgers),
> 33% were at about 4xMF with the remaining
> 66% at 5xMF or higher, one was even 17xMF,
> go figure.  Maybe my pencil's been too sharp.


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## Miss Marty (Jan 17, 2007)

*Branson: 3 Bedroom Cabin Photos*

BocaBum99 

Nice Photos 


RE: 
There are only 3 of these units in the 
Bluegreen Wilderness Club in Missouri

Do they plan to build more 3 Bedroom Cabins


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## BocaBum99 (Jan 17, 2007)

Marty Giggard said:


> BocaBum99
> 
> Nice Photos
> 
> ...



I don't believe they are building any more.


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## FlyKaesan (Feb 1, 2007)

*gave up*

Ok....

I read and re read and re read and still not understanding completely.
I think I am giving up trying to make money with TS but I still vacation once a year so maybe I should find the way to save my money while vacationing.
So........ I read some posts from Spence and Perry where Spence likes Sundance? and Perry likes WM?.  I don't mind either as long as I get something ok and can goto Carribean without paying so much for renting or hotel costs.
I am studying WM and it seems like they don't have many Carribean resorts like in Grand Cayman or St. Thomas.
I would like to goto Hawaii also so what is the best way to get there?
I like Marriott but I heard they might be moving out of exchange company.


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## Steamboat Bill (Feb 1, 2007)

FlyKaesan said:


> Ok....
> 
> I read and re read and re read and still not understanding completely.
> I think I am giving up trying to make money with TS but I still vacation once a year so maybe I should find the way to save my money while vacationing.
> ...



Ahhhhh...you are finally seeing the light. Let the real-estate pros make money with Timeshares and you cna simply enjoy nice vacations at a great price.

Buy into the system that matches your vacations locations and room types at the best resale price possible.....you will be much happier doing this than trying to make a profit.


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## FlyKaesan (Mar 15, 2007)

To save money, 

would you buy Worldmark credits
or rci points?
worldmark = 6000 credit   $4500 ; MF - $405? or 425
or
rci points 66000 points   $5300 ;  MF - $270

I like to go local places in Virginia, Disney, Las Vegas, Hawaii but once every 5 years, I would like to go international.


----------

