# HGVC 2011 Guide - PRICE CHANGES!!



## jestme (Nov 5, 2010)

I got my new guide online, and the new one has some significant changes to "Open Season" rates as well as rates for things like depositing, rescuing, etc. The Open Season rates are now season oriented, and also have a separate class for studio plus. Open season "Platinum" rates are all $20 more than the rest, and there is a new rate for "studio plus", which is $10 more, as well as a "studio premier" which is another $10 higher (whatever a "studio premier" is). Also, a 1BR penthouse goes from $120 to $200, and $140-$220 during platinum! An $80 increase! 
All the $69 fees are now $84.


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## GregT (Nov 5, 2010)

jestme said:


> I got my new guide online, and the new one has some significant changes to "Open Season" rates as well as rates for things like depositing, rescuing, etc. The Open Season rates are now season oriented, and also have a separate class for studio plus. Open season "Platinum" rates are all $20 more than the rest, and there is a new rate for "studio plus", which is $10 more, as well as a "studio premier" which is another $10 higher (whatever a "studio premier" is). Also, a 1BR penthouse goes from $120 to $200, and $140-$220 during platinum! An $80 increase!
> All the $69-$79 fees are now $84.



And the annual fee is increasing to $217, but now includes the $49/$59/$79 reservation fee (which they've gotten rid). 

Edited to add:  Sorry -- my error, please disregard.  As Jestme has pointed out, this is for Hilton Club, not HGVC.


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## jestme (Nov 5, 2010)

GregT said:


> And the annual fee is increasing to $217, but now includes the $49/$59/$79 reservation fee (which they've gotten rid).



I believe that is only for Hilton Club members. For HGVC members, it is $114, up from $95. Pg 161 shows the HGVC costs. Pg 159 is the Hilton Club ones.


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## HatTrick (Nov 5, 2010)

jestme said:


> and there is a new rate for "studio plus", which is $10 more, as well as a "studio premier" which is another $10 higher (whatever a "studio premier" is)



The "studio premier" designation appeared briefly last year for Lagoon Tower, then went away:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=675872&highlight=studio#post675872


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## toontoy (Nov 5, 2010)

The one charge that is new is the Guest confirmation fee of 39.00 if its not your home week. 

It seems that the fee's are growing very steadily unercutting the value of membership in my opinon. For travel anywhere but Hawaii it seems you can go to expedia for the same price as it costs to book within the club.


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## PigsDad (Nov 5, 2010)

toontoy said:


> For travel anywhere but Hawaii it seems you can go to expedia for the same price as it costs to book within the club.


Agreed, but I would add Valdoro in Beckenridge to that list.  Try renting a 2 BR condo during ski season for anything remotely close to open season rates -- just can't be done.

Kurt


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## sjuhawk_jd (Nov 5, 2010)

The value of Elite Premier status may go up now(for some) since many of these fees are waived for them.


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## akyam (Nov 5, 2010)

toontoy said:


> The one charge that is new is the Guest confirmation fee of 39.00 if its not your home week.



How is the Guest confirmation fee different than the home resort/club Reservation fee ($49/$59/$79 online vs phone vs changeable)?  Do they specify what the charge is for?


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## toontoy (Nov 5, 2010)

akyam said:


> How is the Guest confirmation fee different than the home resort/club Reservation fee ($49/$59/$79 online vs phone vs changeable)?  Do they specify what the charge is for?



This is in addition to the booking charges. I called and verfied as well. I let my family often use my membership and with the fee for 3 nights here and there it adds up and makes it more than booking at hilton.com


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## akyam (Nov 5, 2010)

toontoy said:


> This is in addition to the booking charges. I called and verfied as well. I let my family often use my membership and with the fee for 3 nights here and there it adds up and makes it more than booking at hilton.com



Nice. :annoyed:   

Well maybe they'll waive the confirmation if we just make the reservation and skip the confirmation?  :hysterical:


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## toontoy (Nov 5, 2010)

PigsDad said:


> Agreed, but I would add Valdoro in Beckenridge to that list.  Try renting a 2 BR condo during ski season for anything remotely close to open season rates -- just can't be done.
> 
> Kurt



That is true, I forgot about Valdoro. I know when I stayed in Miami it was about the same so I booked directly


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## ricoba (Nov 5, 2010)

These past few months the Karen Street property has had a "suite upgrade" deal on Hilton.com and for $89 per night you could get a 1 bedroom unit.  Last time I looked the deal was over.  But I found out the hard way that Open Season isn't always the great deal I had always assumed it was.  Now with these new rates, not sure if Open Season seems so attractive anymore, at least for Vegas, where it's easy to rent a timeshare condo on the open market (eg. Shell Desert Rose is 4 nights for price of 3 and a 1 bedroom was $85 per night on my last check).

This and a few other factors have already started us thinking about letting our ts go bye bye.


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## Talent312 (Nov 6, 2010)

I wonder how they justify these fee increases when inflation is nonexistent
and the industry is struggling to survive. Perhaps they feel we're locked in,
so what the heck.

Perhaps some folks, like the corporate officers, are getting a pay raise.


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## jestme (Nov 6, 2010)

Talent312 said:


> I wonder how they justify these fee increases when inflation is nonexistent
> and the industry is struggling to survive. Perhaps they feel we're locked in,
> so what the heck.
> 
> Perhaps some folks, like the corporate officers, are getting a pay raise.



Keep in mind, Blackstone isn't in the hotel business. They are in the investment business. I believe your comment is correct. They feel we are locked in. However, with these kinds of increases, and no additional benefits, they have certainly made sure I won`t be buying any more.


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## sjuhawk_jd (Nov 6, 2010)

Talent312 said:


> I wonder how they justify these fee increases when inflation is nonexistent
> and the industry is struggling to survive. Perhaps they feel we're locked in,
> so what the heck.
> 
> Perhaps some folks, like the corporate officers, are getting a pay raise.



Perhaps the health insurance premiums that they have to pay for their employees have gone up!

Perhaps they are not struggling to survive as many other timeshares companies certainly are!


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## jerseygirl (Nov 6, 2010)

If it's the best price for the area, I'll probably still use Open Season as I feel I've gotten tremendous value from it in the past.  But, the price increase will certainly ensure that I look elsewhere for comparable/better deals (I rarely checked anywhere else in the past -- if I was going to be in Orlando for a long weekend, I used Open Season).  If occupancy goes down by enough to result in less overall revenue even after the price increase, they'll have to look at the pricing again.  Let's just hope others do their homework and don't just blindly pay the inflated prices.


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## Talent312 (Nov 6, 2010)

It won't be easy for HGVC to make OS into a cash-cow.
Especially if HGVC'ers are smart enuff to check other sources.  

For a recent weekender in Orlando, I priced a studio-room at...
(1) HGVC-OS... (2) HGVC via H-Hotels... and (3) H-Hotels via H-Hotels.
The prices in the same vicinity (Lake Buena Vista) were similar.
I chose a hotel room, since a full-breakfast was free (for Gold HHonors).


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## jestme (Nov 6, 2010)

I've always wondered if the money from Open Season goes to the resort booked to offset maid, check in, and overhead costs, or just to HGVC as additional revenue and they let the resort eat the additional costs involved. Clearly, increasing revenue is a priority. The increase percentages this year are outrageous. Unfortunately, I don`t even know who to complain to. Not that it would matter much, but I`d like to hear their view of the justification for these increases.


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## PortableTech (Nov 8, 2010)

I have to admit, this is just a bit concerning.  We seem to be entering a period where we are seeing fee increases every year.  Granted, last year was not a large increase in the annual fee if I remember correctly, but they raised it again, and now with the increase to open season, and the fee for guest certificates, I have to say, this makes me worry a bit on where we will be in 10 years.  

Sadly, there is no control for how much or when they are allowed to raise these management based fees, and I feel as other have said that they view us as locked in and thus compelled to meet whatever fees they wish to force upon us.  

Now, I will say I am only an HGVC member, so I do not know how this compares to other TS systems, but I do know this has me holding back on purchasing that next 2BD Plat I was looking at now.  While I am not scared off too badly of the fees this year, what prevents them from doing such raises every year if they wanted to?

Just seems a bad move when the value of the weeks are declining.  If i had to guess, they are going to hold HGVC for another year or two, push fees every year, and then show off their profits as a reason to sell it off at a higher value than they purchased it at, so they can dump it in that time period where everyone is paying the fees, and before people start leaving and/or not purchasing new due to the fees.  But that is just my guess.

Doug


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## yumdrey (Nov 8, 2010)

Doug said:


> Sadly, there is no control for how much or when they are allowed to raise these management based fees, and I feel as other have said that they view us as locked in and thus compelled to meet whatever fees they wish to force upon us.
> 
> Now, I will say I am only an HGVC member, so I do not know how this compares to other TS systems, but I do know this has me holding back on purchasing that next 2BD Plat I was looking at now.  While I am not scared off too badly of the fees this year, what prevents them from doing such raises every year if they wanted to?



Worldmark is more stable than other systems, there is a cap for MF increase, developer/management co. cannot increase more than 5% MF each year. also there was a law suit because management co (Wyndham) increased required credits for staying at newly developed resorts, and it finally settled last week, those higher credit required resorts will go down to other resorts level. Very good result all thanks to active WM owners. 
I wish HGVC owners can do the same like WM owners, we can discuss actively and find a better way of use and express our concerns to HGVC.
Compared to Starwood, HGVC is doing much better and stable management, most of starwood resorts had more than 20% MF increase last year and it made resale prices almost next to nothing.
Buying TS always has risk and you should consider that maybe many years later, you cannot sell your TS and you are locked in forever MF due.


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## Big Spike (Nov 8, 2010)

The fact that fees are increasing backs my contention that HGVC is also renting out owner owned weeks as if they were their own .   With a 9 month window in Oahu that has turned into more like a 4 month open season.  I've been watching inventories for months and they are playing games with availability.   I'm happy to see that some people are getting concerned with the fee increases.  Just think how you would feel if you found out that the week you pay maintenance fees on (if not booked in the Home window) is also being rented out by HGVC for profit.


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## jerseygirl (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm pretty sure that it's illegal under Hawaii statutes for the developer/manager to rent weeks prior to the 60-day mark.  They may play with inventory by grabbing the best weeks for themselves as people convert to HH points, but I don't think they'd blatantly break Hawaiian statutes.


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## Talent312 (Nov 8, 2010)

Big Spike said:


> The fact that fees are increasing backs my contention that HGVC is also renting out owner owned weeks as if they were their own.



Oh, so you think that the higher fees proves poaching. I don't think so.
I think it more likely that Hilton claims a certain amount of inventory represented by (1) unsold units, (2) points used for RCI exchanges, (3) points used for HHonors conversions, and (4) points used for cruises and other activities. They do, BTW, have an obligation to share inventory with RCI-members.

Associating that inventory with unreserved home-weeks (since its not the actual unit) is as reasonable as any other approach. But it is also plausible that they're bunching their claim in peak periods and high-demand areas to make sure the offsets work. In any event, proving that excessive poaching occurs would be exceedingly difficult to prove, high fees notwithstanding.


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## arnolds8903 (Nov 17, 2010)

maybe it's time for a revolution!


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## judgerey (Nov 18, 2010)

Big Spike said:


> I've been watching inventories for months and _they are playing games with availability_. . .  Just think how you would feel if you found out that the week you pay maintenance fees on (if not booked in the Home window) is also being rented out by HGVC for profit.



Spike, if you are right, a class action for fraud, civil RICO may be in order.  Unfortunately, only those who bought direct from Hilton would be putative members of the class.  Any hotshot lawyers out there willing to take the case?


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## Big Spike (Nov 19, 2010)

Hgvc sold me my timeshare interests in Hawaii (40,200 points) with the understanding that at the 9 month window unbooked inventory would open to everyone.  That obviously is not the case.  I as a loyal owner (40,200 pts) can't possibly book all my points prior to 9 months.  I use my timeshares to take family, friends and customers to Hawaii with me and my wife.  I have payed for that privilage.  The uncertainty with which the program has evolved to is in my opinion in violation of the contracts I signed to buy these timeshares.  I've been portrayed as some sort of a conspiracy theorist.  Well in my opinion as substantial owner in Hawaii, HGVC is in breach of their contract with me and I really take some offense to some of the experts with no skin in the game who make all kinds of excuses for HGVC.  Some will say why don't you just book all your points in the home window.  Easy enough but I don"t always need the exact room types I own.


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## toontoy (Nov 19, 2010)

I was looking through the terms and conditions in the member guide and it does say that basicly within the 12-9 month window you make a reservation at the home resort owned and type of unit but the specific one can vary which is basicly understood on this forum. It then goes on to further explain that the club season begins on the 9 month mark, thus all units not booked in home resort should be available, minus hiltons own holdings of course. I think they manipulate it and take it somehow which is a violation of the rules, thus why the theory here states they release it 4 month ou after trying to rent it out. 

At the 30 day mark it states that hilton reserves the right to do with the open space what they please. 

The 9 month club window is part of the club rules, and should be open. I think this needs to be looked at as it is what makes the club worthwhile. I didn't buy to just go to the same place every year for a week, I bought for 3-10 night stays at all club resorts and usually travel around the resorts which most members do.


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## Talent312 (Nov 19, 2010)

toontoy said:


> ... the club season begins on the 9 month mark, thus all units not booked in home resort should be available, minus hiltons own holdings of course. I think they manipulate it and take it somehow...



I suspect that HGVC "takes" a number of units equivilent to the points which are used by members for purposes other than HGVC reservations, like:
-- RCI Reservations;
-- Hilton Hotel Conversions or Direct-Bookings;
-- Point Banking/Rescues for Future Years; or
-- Cruises and other Partner Perks.

When you add all that stuff up, there's prob'ly a heck of a lot of inventory that Hilton can legitimately claim for it's use, and if they place dibs on a block of high season, high demand units, well... as I like to say, "some animals are more equal than others." (George Orwell)


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## jestme (Nov 19, 2010)

This thread has gotten WAY off the topic I started with. Having said that, here are my comment's to Big Spike. It has been shown that Hilton owns at least 20% of the inventory, plus HHonors conversions, plus RCI reservations, etc. As Talent312 says, that is a lot of inventory. More than 2 days a week, every week. With their inventory, they can do what they want. At the 9 month level, the only inventory that is guaranteed to be available to us owners is inventory that owners haven't booked. The inventory that Hilton owns is still theirs to do what they want with. 
At the 9 month level, you are competing with all the other owners for availability. Owning 40,000 points at the Lagoon doesn't give you any advantage over a person owning 5000 points in Vegas. To expect that you will always get what you want at the club season level is unrealistic. To expect it in Hawaii, with 120,000 others competing with you is naive.


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## chester1122 (Nov 20, 2010)

I think you need to take a look at each locations financial statements and management plan approved by the board of directors.  There is likley amount of inventory available for rent.



judgerey said:


> Spike, if you are right, a class action for fraud, civil RICO may be in order.  Unfortunately, only those who bought direct from Hilton would be putative members of the class.  Any hotshot lawyers out there willing to take the case?


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## Big Spike (Nov 20, 2010)

Being "naive" is accepting what your told without question..  In this case HGVC spells out in their published "Members Guide" What Club season is for the HHV properties.  I was told in a previous post that you can"t believe what your salesperson told when you bought.  And it's obvious I can't rely on past experience because that has changed also.  So I guess I'm "naive" for believing what HGVC publishes, says or has done in the past?


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## PigsDad (Nov 20, 2010)

Big Spike said:


> Being "naive" is accepting what your told without question..  In this case HGVC spells out in their published "Members Guide" What Club season is for the HHV properties.  I was told in a previous post that you can"t believe what your salesperson told when you bought.  And it's obvious I can't rely on past experience because that has changed also.  So I guess I'm "naive" for believing what HGVC publishes, says or has done in the past?


_Again _I ask you -- where does it say that HGVC must release *all available inventory* at the beginning of Club Season?   The member's guide just says that Club Season begins at 9 months out -- it says _*nothing *_about what or how much inventory is released at that time.

HGVC is simply responding to the feedback of their members.  It is obviously negatively affecting you, but most likely positively affecting other members.  Change happens, and in this case, HGVC has every right to make those changes as it sees fit.  All your claims of HGVC being in breach of contract is the naive part, IMO.

Kurt


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