# Hilton Club NY Lounge access no longer available to RCI Exchangers



## alwysonvac (May 10, 2016)

WELL THAT SUCKS :annoyed:
I just received the following email today from RCI.



> Dear RCI Member:
> 
> We have some important information to share concerning your upcoming vacation to The Hilton Club of New York in New York.
> 
> ...


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## CalGalTraveler (May 11, 2016)

I am surprised the Hilton Club lounge was available to non-owners. The W 57th lounge is only available to W 57th owners.  The two properties seem to run under similar policies.


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## vacationhopeful (May 11, 2016)

That is JUST total crap! 

My resort should declare that the pool and resort activities are off limits to RCI exchangers, too. RCI would DROP my resort in a heartbeat.

If they want to LIMIT RCI exchangers access, they should NOT be depositing into RCI the number of exchange weeks that they want to use to "troll" for new sales bodies. 

Or they should expand the lounge are as they have expanded from 2 floors to MORE floors.


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## jestme (May 11, 2016)

From an HGVC standpoint, I don't know why we put up with this Hilton Club nonsense altogether. They seem to come from a different world, make their own rules, etc. I wonder where the Hilton Club will sit when HGVC gets spinned off to a separate company and isn't under the all encompassing Hilton umbrella.


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## alwysonvac (May 11, 2016)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I am surprised the Hilton Club lounge was available to non-owners. The W 57th lounge is only available to W 57th owners.  The two properties seem to run under similar policies.



The two properties don't run under similar policies. This has been discussed before in various old threads.


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## holdaer (May 11, 2016)

HGVC just announced The Residences by Hilton Club will be coming online in 2018 for all HGVC members.  It appears this NY locale is at the Hilton New York Midtown hotel.  The same hotel as The Hilton Club-New York.

Since HGVC has been buying back the RTUs from The Hilton Club-New York members, I wonder if HGVC is looking to dissolve the The Hilton Club-New York product and switch it to a conventional timeshare product under the name The Residences by Hilton Club.

Has anyone been to The Hilton Club-New York recently and can confirm or refute this idea?


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## buzglyd (May 11, 2016)

holdaer said:


> HGVC just announced The Residences by Hilton Club will be coming online in 2018 for all HGVC members.  It appears this NY locale is at the Hilton New York Midtown hotel.  The same hotel as The Hilton Club-New York.
> 
> Since HGVC has been buying back the RTUs from The Hilton Club-New York members, I wonder if HGVC is looking to dissolve the The Hilton Club-New York product and switch it to a conventional timeshare product under the name The Residences by Hilton Club.
> 
> Has anyone been to The Hilton Club-New York recently and can confirm or refute this idea?



I would say that's exactly what they're doing.


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## Jason245 (May 11, 2016)

holdaer said:


> HGVC just announced The Residences by Hilton Club will be coming online in 2018 for all HGVC members.  It appears this NY locale is at the Hilton New York Midtown hotel.  The same hotel as The Hilton Club-New York.
> 
> Since HGVC has been buying back the RTUs from The Hilton Club-New York members, I wonder if HGVC is looking to dissolve the The Hilton Club-New York product and switch it to a conventional timeshare product under the name The Residences by Hilton Club.
> 
> Has anyone been to The Hilton Club-New York recently and can confirm or refute this idea?



It makes sense, the RTU model is much more hassel than the direct sale model.  To be honest, buying back RTU units even at a premium is better for them in the long run....


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## CalGalTraveler (May 11, 2016)

Take comfort in the fact that you paid thousands less than NYC owners and use your savings to buy a street cart bagel and coffee for breakfast (which is probably better anyway).  You are still thousands (if not tens of thousands ahead) with NYC resales running in the $15 - $25k+ range and retail purchases in the $45k+ range.  Don't you think HGVC should throw NYC owners some perks (albeit minor) for paying such a premium?

Enjoy NYC.  You got a great deal.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 11, 2016)

In addition, I seem to recall that lounge services are paid out of the maintenance fees that NYC owners pay.  

Why is it fair that NYC owners should pay for your breakfast, alcohol and appetizers when they don't get the same benefits when they visit your property?


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## PigsDad (May 11, 2016)

CalGalTraveler said:


> In addition, I seem to recall that lounge services are paid out of the maintenance fees that NYC owners pay.
> 
> Why is it fair that NYC owners should pay for your breakfast, alcohol and appetizers when they don't get the same benefits when they visit your property?



Ok, let me ask you this:  When you trade your NYC property for a property that includes a _different _perk that you don't get at your home property, should you be expected to pay for that?  For example:

A surcharge for parking (your NYC property doesn't include free parking)
A surcharge for extra square footage (your NYC property is tiny in comparison)
A surcharge for a full-sized kitchen (your NYC property's kitchen is lacking)
etc.
etc.

So why do you think it is unfair for people exchanging into your NYC property to receive all the amenities at that property?

Kurt


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## vacationhopeful (May 11, 2016)

When the HCNY owners who exchanged OUT of their high price ownership are floating in MY SOUTH FLORIDA beach block heated pool, hot tub and sauna in February or March or July 4th week which I exchanged out of to get the deposit into the HCNY ... those items are PAID with my MFs. That is why it is called an "EXCHANGE BOOKING".

Plus, I was searching just 3 days using my AKV/DVC points for HCNY with a RCI guide ... and could have gotten a 1 bdr Hilton Club week for January, 2017. I was just thinking would January be a bit too cold for my 91 yo aunt which is WHY I did not book it.

I rented my DVC points YESTERDAY ... now I am glad to use the money for a different trip. And use my Wyndham points for NYC.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 11, 2016)

PigsDad said:


> Ok, let me ask you this:  When you trade your NYC property for a property that includes a _different _perk that you don't get at your home property, should you be expected to pay for that?  For example:
> 
> A surcharge for parking (your NYC property doesn't include free parking)
> A surcharge for extra square footage (your NYC property is tiny in comparison)
> ...



Unfortunately you are confusing fixed costs with variable costs.  

Such properties must maintain heated pools and kitchen amenities for its owners or it would be considered substandard. Your maintenance fees are not significantly impacted by one more person using the kitchen.  On the other hand, free alcohol and food is a significant incremental cost that someone must pay for.

Now if you stocked the kitchen with a week's worth of food and alcohol for my family and paid for staff to prepare, serve and clean (akin to the lounge in HCNY), that would be a different story...


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## PigsDad (May 11, 2016)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Unfortunately you are confusing fixed costs with variable costs.
> 
> Such properties must maintain heated pools and kitchen amenities for its owners or it would be considered substandard. Your maintenance fees are not significantly impacted by one more person using the kitchen.  On the other hand, free alcohol and food is a significant incremental cost that someone must pay for.



BS.  Parking spaces cost money to maintain every year.  Larger units means more maintenance every year.  More kitchen appliances means more upkeep every year.  Large landscaping has maintenance costs every year.  Those are all "significant incremental" costs not associated with a property like Hilton Club NYC.  

So the NYC property has a lounge that is a cost that most other properties don't have.  One could easily argue that they built that lounge and provided the associated service because they lack so many amenities that other timeshares have, so why should it not be accessible to exchangers?

It's not a variable vs. fixed cost issue, your maintenance fees are what they are for a given property and its associated amenities.  If your argument is that the amenities that you receive at a given property should be based on what MFs you pay at your home property, then it follows that all exchanges should be based on the maintenance fee you pay.  If you pay $1200 in MF, you can't exchange into a place that has a $1300 MF, etc.  Do you think that is how all exchanges should work? 

Kurt


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## CalGalTraveler (May 11, 2016)

You are comparing apples (big apple to be exact! ) with oranges.  If you believe that Las Vegas or Florida real estate and labor is comparable in price to NYC real estate then I've got a retail timeshare you might want to buy.

Second, re: fixed vs. variable costs. Parking lots, kitchens and landscaping need to be maintained regardless of whether a non-owner uses the property or not. Every property has wear and tear including NYC.  If a non-owner and their family eats and drinks for a week at HCNY that incurs additional cost. 

Why should an owner pay for your family to eat and drink alcohol for a week when they don't get similar service at your property?

BTW...some HGVC properties such as in HHV charge for parking, so the argument about parking doesn't make sense.  Besides, there is no need to have a car in NYC.


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## vacationhopeful (May 11, 2016)

CalGalTraveler said:


> ....Second, re: fixed vs. variable costs. Parking lots, kitchens and landscaping need to be maintained regardless of whether a non-owner uses the property or not. Every property has wear and tear including NYC.  *If a non-owner and their family eats and drinks for a week at HCNY that incurs additional cost.*
> 
> ...



You really are ANGRY that non-owners socialize and mix it up with the HCNY owners? 

A real HCNY owner deposited their ownership to exchange via RCI to another resort. Another timeshare owner paid their exchange fee to book into HCNY and is using the ownership your FELLOW HCNY owner deposited.

Added: I paid my resort's MFs, paid an exchange fee, joined into the fabric of the social scene with HCNY owners, enjoyed my vacation experience and services of a fine resort. If I had been relegated to the HCNY room with not even a mini-fridge or a coffee pot .. I would have written up a very BAD REVIEW (being a 2nd class guest while I walked past the lounge and observed & smelled the coffee and food). 

But YOU really believe that a timeshare owner (the HCNY exchanger) should *NOT* enjoy a decent breakfast in the lounge while YOUR fellow HCNY owner uses a full kitchen to whip up a hot breakfast for their family in their RCI exchanged unit? As for the evening beverages and nice snacks ... my Princeton educated brother (my guest) was totally dumbfounded that I, a graduate of a Southern finishing school, held my own and actually ADDED new info, to our table conversation on Impressionist Art of the Late 1800s with 3 HCNY owners who travelled extensively to view art. 

Are you following ... my brother and I may have been eating and drinking with some elite HCNY owners .. but they learned from ME as we learned from them. My brother is still in awe of our tables' joint conversation. And that is one of the reasons I enjoy travelling.

My brother asked me back at the unit .. .WHERE did I learn all this art world stuff? I explained I knew this "one little" piece but I knew it well .. I was lucky they knew less. But then again, the Helen Birch Bartlett Collection at the Art Institute of Chicago is world famous (which I saw some of the collection in Chicago before my NYC trip).

AND the Hugh Taylor Birch State Park is across the Sunrise Blvd to my favorite timeshare resort in Ft Lauderdale which shares a property line with the Bonnet House (Helen Birch Bartlett's and Henry Clay's home in Ft Lauderdale).


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## CalGalTraveler (May 11, 2016)

vacationhopeful said:


> You really are ANGRY that non-owners socialize and mix it up with the HCNY owners?



Whoa. I am not angry and I am not even an owner at HCNY.  

There is no doubt that there would be interesting conversations. The point is simple and purely economic. Everyone should pay their fair share.

Bottom line the rooms are a great deal: If your maintenance is approx. $1000/year.  Then you are paying roughly $142/night for a nice room in one of the best addresses in NYC. It would not be easy to find something comparable that is not a bed-bug ridden closet-sized room at that price during a peak time. Check out the prices of the rooms on hilton.com. 

On top of getting a great room at a great price you expect the owners to subsidize and feed you and your family for a week?  The sense of entitlement here astounds me.


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## bizaro86 (May 11, 2016)

If they don't allow exhangers into the lounge, will the oqners who exchange OUT have their portion of the mf that relates to the lounge refunded?

It seems to me that this policy is actually owners who exchange out subsidizing those who use their time at the property.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 11, 2016)

bizaro86 said:


> If they don't allow exhangers into the lounge, will the oqners who exchange OUT have their portion of the mf that relates to the lounge refunded?



That's a very interesting thought. I believe the way it will work is that the cost savings will be spread across the homeowners association as food and beverage are calculated into the operational/maintenance fee.


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## brp (May 11, 2016)

holdaer said:


> Since HGVC has been buying back the RTUs from The Hilton Club-New York members, I wonder if HGVC is looking to dissolve the The Hilton Club-New York product and switch it to a conventional timeshare product under the name The Residences by Hilton Club.



As a W. 57th owner, I would prefer that this is the case rather than the addition of a third property as it preserves the value of my W. 57th property due to scarcity.



CalGalTraveler said:


> Take comfort in the fact that you paid thousands less than NYC owners and use your savings to buy a street cart bagel and coffee for breakfast (which is probably better anyway).  You are still thousands (if not tens of thousands ahead) with NYC resales running in the $15 - $25k+ range and retail purchases in the $45k+ range.



Of course, the value of the NYC properties on the resale market has not declined. It has been steady of late, but has risen quite a bit since the property was introduced. When we finally do sell, I expect that we'll get at least our money back, probably more.

As a W. 57th owner and former HCNY owner, I'm fine with the limitations. As mentioned, these are variable and per-user costs, not fixed costs. I would expect the lounge to be reserved for owners as it is as W. 57th.

Now, when I try to exchange into one of the new Club locations as a W. 57th owner, I'll probably want the rules to change to all Club folks. 

Cheers.


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## buzglyd (May 11, 2016)

Just look at the locations of the posters with the highest exclamation point count.

Explains a lot.

Honk!


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## PigsDad (May 11, 2016)

CalGalTraveler said:


> If a non-owner and their family eats and drinks for a week at HCNY that incurs *additional *cost.



How does that incur an _*additional *_cost?  If the owner didn't exchange the week, then the owner would be eating and drinking in the lounge.  If the owner exchanged their unit, the exchanger eats and drinks in the lounge.  If the owner rented their week, the renter would be eating and drinking in the lounge.

Where is the *additional *cost???

Unless you can answer that, your argument holds no water.

My point is that the MF is based on the property and its amenities.  The lounge costs are just like any other costs that go into determining the MF, just like landscaping, parking lot maintenance, etc. at other properties.  Why are the lounge expenses "special", such that you think non-owners should barred from partaking?

Kurt

P.S.  Personally, I don't give a hoot if an exchanger can or cannot access the lounge.  Just look at the inequities DIS exchangers pay vs. owners.  I just think it is absurd thinking that lounge expenses are somehow in a category by themselves, separate from other operating expenses.


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## dioxide45 (May 11, 2016)

I am surely not a fan of this. Not that I own or can even exchange in to a HGVC property. Anything included in your MFs is part of what you own. If you get lounge access and you are paying for it through your MFs, then someone exchanging in should get the exact same benefits. When trading was started, it was meant for me to trade what I would get at my resort for what you would get at your resort. You may get lounge access at yours, but I may get something different included at mine. It is quite possible that someone exchanging in is actually paying a higher MFs than you are at your resort. It is the lumps you take when you opt to exchange. If Hilton is paying for the related lounge costs 100%, then I see no issue with them restricting access, but if it is in the owners MFs, I should get it when I visit as an exchanger.

We know the only way for this to stop is for the exchange companies to stand up and be willing to drop these properties. We know they won't do that because they covet these big timeshare companies being affiliated with them. The only real option is for the exchangers to give these properties negative ratings when you get the survey after your visit.


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## buzglyd (May 11, 2016)

It's Sycamore Creek wine and Costco appetizers. The last time I was there, some doofus put a Danish in the toaster and practically lit the place on fire. 

It's not that big of a deal.


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## Jason245 (May 11, 2016)

buzglyd said:


> It's Sycamore Creek wine and Costco appetizers. The last time I was there, some doofus put a Danish in the toaster and practically lit the place on fire.
> 
> It's not that big of a deal.


Seriously. .. for the most part, if you are exchanging into ny property,  you are probably realizing a net benefit  (mf plus exchange fees) of at least 50 percent on your mf. 

With that savings I would be more than willing to pay for my own danish and glass of wine...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## CalGalTraveler (May 12, 2016)

Jason245 said:


> Seriously. .. for the most part, if you are exchanging into ny property,  you are probably realizing a net benefit  (mf plus exchange fees) of at least 50 percent on your mf.
> 
> With that savings I would be more than willing to pay for my own danish and glass of wine...
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk



I agree with Jason245. Besides why would anyone new to NYC want to spend scarce vacation time elbowing for danish and cheap wine when you could go out and experience real NYC Hot Dogs, Bagels, pizza, Eataly etc.  

I believe people here are confusing a property amenity associated with trading a fixed physical unit and amenities available to all (kitchen, landscaping, parking) with an elite perk which remains with the individual who paid a premium for such benefits (Food, Drinks, Gold HHonors, upgrades). 

For example, if you are an Elite and trade your unit with me, I don't get to use your Elite perks to check in early, upgrades (or whatever else elite's get), I simply get to use your physical unit as you do mine. Similarly, lounge food services are an elite perk given to owners of HCNY, W. 57th, Las Vegas Boulevard Elite, and (possibly) Kingsland that remains with the individuals who paid a premium for it. How is this any different than hotels where elites get breakfast with their room.  But others who don't have elite status or are not willing to pay for it don't?

Now if only they would serve better alcohol...


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## jestme (May 12, 2016)

PigsDad said:


> Ok, let me ask you this:  When you trade your NYC property for a property that includes a _different _perk that you don't get at your home property, should you be expected to pay for that?  For example:
> 
> A surcharge for parking (your NYC property doesn't include free parking)
> A surcharge for extra square footage (your NYC property is tiny in comparison)
> ...



How about a surcharge for oceanfront?


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## vacationhopeful (May 12, 2016)

Next, the HCNY owners will want 2 oceanfront 2/2 units for one exchange fee by depositing their 1 week. After all, they have such a premium "resort" (ie hotel room in NYC) that they are depositing.

My direct beachfront timeshare studio timeshare condo (fixed week 52 & Week 1 including Week 53 this year) in Pompano Beach, FL (6 miles due north of Ft Lauderdale) has MFs of under $1800 per year (total for both units).

Wait ... I have a full kitchen and in unit washer & dryer plus free parking. And 14 nights (21 nights this coming December, 2016). 

And earlier this week, I was figuring out HOW to use my DVC points .. thinking I would exchange into HCNY. Glad I rented by DVC points instead. Will pay my DVC MFs cover my MFs for my 3 week stay in my South Florida beachfront TS unit (week 52, 53 and 1) after paying my DVC MFs. Might have enough money left to buy a few bottles of red wine.  HAPPY NEW YEAR!


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## CalGalTraveler (May 12, 2016)

jestme said:


> How about a surcharge for oceanfront?



HGVC already factors this in for everyone in the system. For example, at Lagoon Tower, 2 Bedroom Oceanfront Premier, or Penthouse units require more points to use than a 2 Bedroom plus or garden view unit. Newer units such as Grand Waikikian requires more points, 2 bedrooms are more than 1 bedrooms etc.

Keep in mind, physical amenities of the unit/property should not be confused with an individual's elite status perks. So if I trade with you to use your HGVC 2 bedroom penthouse, that does not entitle me to get free breakfast, HHonors gold, or late checkout associated with your personal Elite status.  DVC and Worldmark have similar elite status programs, no?  Hilton is a hotel chain and HGVC thinks like a hotel. Everyone gets to use the pool but only HHonors elites get free breakfast no matter what room in the hotel they happen to occupy because elite status is tied to the person not the room.


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## alwysonvac (May 12, 2016)

The primary point of my post was to warn others that lounge access is no longer available.

Keep in mind, lounge access has been available to everyone for 10+ years.
When I book my reservation approximately 8 months ago, I made my decision based on this access since the Hilton Club only offers a glorified hotel room (not a studio with a mini fridge, microwave, etc). 

I'm pissed that Hilton made the decision effective immediately impacting all existing reservations. I would have made a different choice if lounge access wasn't included. Now to make things even worst, it sounds like I'll lose my RCI exchange fee when I cancel. 

For those who don't know, it's simply continental breakfast and evening hors d'oeuvres with beverages. It was a nice option since the rooms don't offer what you would typically expected from a timeshare.  It's not a feast and most folks weren't trying to stock pile or drink their weight in liquor 



alwysonvac said:


> We had our first stay this year via RCI Points.
> 
> Here's photos of the studio room and Club lounge from our Labor Day Weekend stay -  https://www.flickr.com/photos/40089311@N05/sets/72157660274360701#
> 
> ...


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## Tamaradarann (May 12, 2016)

*New York City, New York City, New York City*

I was born, educated and worked in NYC for many years.  Good and/or Bad it is a different place than any other in the US.  The Hilton Club is a different system so the rules will be different than HgvC.  However, the 57th street property is in the HGVC system but has many rules that are different than standard HGVC properties.  The points are different to reserve, the club reservation rules are different, the open season period is different, there is a housekeeping fee.  

The hotel rates in NYC are higher than other locations which may warrant the Hilton resorts having diffent rules than other locations.  If one doesn't like the rules whether for an RCI exchange or Club Reservations then don't book it like I don't.  I see NYC has value, however, it is not one of my favorite places in the world.  We live 70 miles from Manhattan and it is frankly too much trouble to deal with.


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## bogey21 (May 12, 2016)

alwysonvac said:


> I'm pissed that Hilton made the decision effective immediately impacting all existing reservations. I would have made a different choice if lounge access wasn't included. Now to make things even worst, it sounds like I'll lose my RCI exchange fee when I cancel.



As I posted on another thread, get used to it.  The "Big Boys" will do whatever they think is in *their* best interest.  It is why over 20 years ago I dumped my "Big Boy" Weeks and bought at Independent HOA Controlled Resorts where, in most cases, Management works with you rather than against you.

George


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## PigsDad (May 12, 2016)

Jason245 said:


> Seriously. .. for the most part, if you are exchanging into ny property,  you are probably realizing a net benefit  (mf plus exchange fees) of at least 50 percent on your mf.



Maybe, maybe not.  Using a standard RCI account, a person may need to deposit two or three of their weeks to get enough TPUs to make the trade into a NYC property.  Total MF plus exchange fees could easily be more than what the NYC owner pays for their unit.

Kurt


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## buzglyd (May 12, 2016)

alwysonvac said:


> The primary point of my post was to warn others that lounge access is no longer available.
> 
> Keep in mind, lounge access has been available to everyone for 10+ years.
> When I book my reservation approximately 8 months ago, I made my decision based on this access since the Hilton Club only offers a glorified hotel room (not a studio with a mini fridge, microwave, etc).
> ...



FWIW, I think you can request a mini-fridge and micro in your room.

There's a nice little wine shop over by Columbus circle where you can get better than Sycamore Creek.


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## PigsDad (May 12, 2016)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I believe people here are confusing a property amenity associated with trading a fixed physical unit and amenities available to all (kitchen, landscaping, parking) with an elite perk which remains with the individual who paid a premium for such benefits (Food, Drinks, Gold HHonors, upgrades).



Justifying it as an elite perk is quite different than saying that exchangers cause additional expenses that shouldn't be included in owner's MFs. 

The way HCNY did this stinks, though.  If it really is an elite perk, why wasn't it an elite perk when the units were originally sold?  If they wanted to change their perks, yanking it from existing exchange reservations is kind of low -- at least grandfather those exchangers in since, as alwysonvac stated, it was a contributing factor in deciding to make the exchange in the first place.

Kurt


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## Jason245 (May 12, 2016)

PigsDad said:


> Maybe, maybe not.  Using a standard RCI account, a person may need to deposit two or three of their weeks to get enough TPUs to make the trade into a NYC property.  Total MF plus exchange fees could easily be more than what the NYC owner pays for their unit.
> 
> Kurt


Even if that were true, as a diamond HHonors who has gotten all these perks at hotels I can tell you that like airport lounges, they are more hype than substance.  



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## MelanieB (May 12, 2016)

CalGalTraveler said:


> I agree with Jason245. Besides why would anyone new to NYC want to spend scarce vacation time elbowing for danish and cheap wine when you could go out and experience real NYC Hot Dogs, Bagels, pizza, Eataly etc.
> 
> I believe people here are confusing a property amenity associated with trading a fixed physical unit and amenities available to all (kitchen, landscaping, parking) with an elite perk which remains with the individual who paid a premium for such benefits (Food, Drinks, Gold HHonors, upgrades).
> 
> ...



"Elite" perks are a sales tool devised *and paid for* by developers, in order to try to justify the absurd prices they charge.  The developers must bear the ongoing cost of these perks, because they cannot expect owners who are not entitled to the use of those perks to subsidize the cost.  If they tried to do that, lawsuits would undoubtably ensue.

My understanding is that's not the case here.  (I could be wrong, in which case I'm sure someone will correct me.)  Since lounge access is a benefit available to all owners, it is very likely paid for by owners, via maintenance fees.  Therefore it is not a "perk", but an amenity of the accommodation, built into the operating costs of the property, just like any other ongoing expense.

As others have pointed out, exchanges are fundamentally simple trades.  I get what you have, you get what I have.  If, as the exchanger, you don't feel that my property (and its associated amenities) is of equal worth to yours... nobody is forcing you to trade.

What's essentially happening here is that the HCNY owners (indirectly) are saying "we want to trade, but we don't think any trade we make is equal value, so we're going to start excluding stuff from the terms of our trade."  Which is valid, I suppose (same principle applies - as the person exchanging in, if you don't like the terms, don't trade), but it runs counter to the original spirit of exchanging, which is likely what has people upset.

For the record, I really don't care either way whether HCNY lounge access is available to non-owners or not.  But as far as I know it's not a developer perk, so that comparison is just not valid.


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## jestme (May 12, 2016)

CalGalTraveler said:


> HGVC already factors this in for everyone in the system. For example, at Lagoon Tower, 2 Bedroom Oceanfront Premier, or Penthouse units require more points to use than a 2 Bedroom plus or garden view unit. Newer units such as Grand Waikikian requires more points, 2 bedrooms are more than 1 bedrooms etc.
> 
> Keep in mind, physical amenities of the unit/property should not be confused with an individual's elite status perks. So if I trade with you to use your HGVC 2 bedroom penthouse, that does not entitle me to get free breakfast, HHonors gold, or late checkout associated with your personal Elite status.  DVC and Worldmark have similar elite status programs, no?  Hilton is a hotel chain and HGVC thinks like a hotel. Everyone gets to use the pool but only HHonors elites get free breakfast no matter what room in the hotel they happen to occupy because elite status is tied to the person not the room.


What I meant was to charge NYC owners more to exchange into resorts that are Ocean Front". It is a "perk" that they don't offer at their resort. If they want to eliminate perks at their NYC resort, then they should be willing to pay extra for the Oceanfront perks at mine.


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## tschwa2 (May 12, 2016)

jestme said:


> What I meant was to charge NYC owners more to exchange into resorts that are Ocean Front". It is a "perk" that they don't offer at their resort. If they want to eliminate perks at their NYC resort, then they should be willing to pay extra for the Oceanfront perks at mine.



Deeded use of timeshare in view is not  a perk, it is the deeded right.  And by the way more and more timeshares downgrade exchangers into lesser views even though the owner may have deposited an ocean front unit.  

I agree that exchanges booked prior to the change should be allowed access and/ or RCI should allow a free retrade and points refunded if the exchange was based on the lounge.  

I think it kind of stinks to restrict perks and amenities (and views) for exchangers but if they are disclosed its your choice to not take the exchange.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 12, 2016)

PigsDad said:


> Justifying it as an elite perk is quite different than saying that exchangers cause additional expenses that shouldn't be included in owner's MFs.
> 
> The way HCNY did this stinks, though.  If it really is an elite perk, why wasn't it an elite perk when the units were originally sold?  If they wanted to change their perks, yanking it from existing exchange reservations is kind of low -- at least grandfather those exchangers in since, as alwysonvac stated, it was a contributing factor in deciding to make the exchange in the first place.
> 
> Kurt



Actually the two are tied together. If it didn't cost money why would they care if exchangers used it or not?  Here a simple example for 10 guests:

Food and Beverage Service (HCNY):

Week 1: 10 Owners  x $20 (assumes fully loaded with staffing) x 7 days = $1400 cost of food

Week 2: 2 owners   x $20 X 7 days = $280 cost of food  
                8 exchangers x 0 x 7 = 0


There fore $1400 - $280 = $ 1120 savings in food and staffing budget


Maintaining/cleaning Swimming Pool (RCI property)

Week 1: 10 owners = $500 (I made this number up.  Pick any number)

Week 2: 2 owners + 8 exchangers  = $500  Pool must be maintained no matter who is at the property.

This is what I mean by variable ($1400 week 1; $280 week2) vs fixed costs ($500 week 1 & 2).


AlwaysonVac: Sorry to hear about your situation as I did not know that they offered this for so long.  They should have grandfathered those with reservations to phase it out.  What's a few more months after 10 years?  

I surmise that with learning from the RTU model, and new residences coming on line it seems they expecting more exchanges (esp. from HGVC Club reservations) so are applying a model similar to W. 57th.  Like all travel benefits they are evolving elite programs over time usually resulting in a devaluation.


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## SmithOp (May 12, 2016)

buzglyd said:


> FWIW, I think you can request a mini-fridge and micro in your room.
> 
> There's a nice little wine shop over by Columbus circle where you can get better than Sycamore Creek.


Lol, I had lunch at CJ NY deli yesterday and there were several cases of Sycamore Creek Merlot stacked by the bar.

Sent from my STUDIO ENERGY using Tapatalk


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## CalGalTraveler (May 12, 2016)

MelanieB said:


> My understanding is that's not the case here.  (I could be wrong, in which case I'm sure someone will correct me.)  Since lounge access is a benefit available to all owners, it is very likely paid for by owners, via maintenance fees.  Therefore it is not a "perk", but an amenity of the accommodation, built into the operating costs of the property, just like any other ongoing expense.
> 
> As others have pointed out, exchanges are fundamentally simple trades.  I get what you have, you get what I have.  If, as the exchanger, you don't feel that my property (and its associated amenities) is of equal worth to yours... nobody is forcing you to trade.
> 
> ...




Your key phrase is "equal value" exchange.

So using your logic, then why don't HGVC owners get access to your RCI, DVC or Starwood Elite benefits and lounges when we stay on your property?  Where's the quid pro quo? (and please don't tell me a kitchen is an "elite benefit.")


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## Sandy VDH (May 12, 2016)

I called Hilton Club as I have an upcoming reservation.  I was told by Erin that bookings made prior to June 1, 2016 will still honor that perk.  Bookings made after June 1 St will be for Owners only, not even for HGVCLUB club members.  Which is more like W 57th location rules.


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## Tamaradarann (May 12, 2016)

*Sorry your are all worked up!*



Sandy VDH said:


> I called Hilton Club as I have an upcoming reservation.  I was told by Erin that bookings made prior to June 1, 2016 will still honor that perk.  Bookings made after June 1 St will be for Owners only, not even for HGVCLUB club members.  Which is more like W 57th location rules.



OK, not even HGVCLUB Owners.  Only Owners at that Resort.  I get it.  I am sorry that you all don't get it and are all worked up about this.  As I said previously New York City is different.  I recognize it so it doesn't bother me. I just ignor it.  I let them do there thing and I find better places to go.  There are plenty of other nice places to go.  If we all just ignored it (Not just timeshare people but hotel people) and went to other places it wouldn't bother us, but they(NYC people) would get it also.


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## dominidude (May 12, 2016)

My advice:
Do not deposit your timeshare first, do request first OGS.

That way you can see what you are getting for your deposit before you relinquish it.

If you dont like it, then dont do the exchange 

And if you bought your timeshare primarily to exchange it rather than use it, you have no right to complain :rofl:


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## alwysonvac (May 12, 2016)

Sandy VDH said:


> I called Hilton Club as I have an upcoming reservation.  I was told by Erin that bookings made prior to June 1, 2016 will still honor that perk.  Bookings made after June 1 St will be for Owners only, not even for HGVCLUB club members.  Which is more like W 57th location rules.



Sandy, Thanks for the update. 
This is the outcome that I would have expected for existing reservations.


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## alwysonvac (May 12, 2016)

*One size doesn't fit all*



bogey21 said:


> As I posted on another thread, get used to it.  The "Big Boys" will do whatever they think is in *their* best interest.  It is why over 20 years ago I dumped my "Big Boy" Weeks and bought at Independent HOA Controlled Resorts where, in most cases, Management works with you rather than against you.
> 
> George



Most companies do whatever is in their best interest which can be hotel chains, airlines, etc. 
And like anything else, when enough is enough folks simply move on. Timeshares are no different.

I'm glad you found something that works for you but when I'm done I will be completely done with it 
For me, timeshare are a means to an end. I'll simply move onto something else


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## buzglyd (May 12, 2016)

SmithOp said:


> Lol, I had lunch at CJ NY deli yesterday and there were several cases of Sycamore Creek Merlot stacked by the bar.
> 
> Sent from my STUDIO ENERGY using Tapatalk



First prize is one bottle of Sycamore Creek.

Second prize is two bottles.


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## alwysonvac (May 12, 2016)

buzglyd said:


> FWIW, I think you can request a mini-fridge and micro in your room.
> 
> There's a nice little wine shop over by Columbus circle where you can get better than Sycamore Creek.



Thanks Buzglyd

If we still decide to go, I might request the mini-fridge if that's available to exchangers.


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## Tamaradarann (May 12, 2016)

*I would still GO!*



alwysonvac said:


> Thanks Buzglyd
> 
> If we still decide to go, I might request the mini-fridge if that's available to exchangers.



Alwysonvac, I am the one who made the negative comments about New York City, and the New York Attitude, but if I were you I would still go.  For all its faults New York has a lot to offer.
The museums, shows, restaurants, and other nightlife; some of which cannot be found in other locations, can be fun and rewarding.  I did New York City when I was younger and experienced many things that I haven't been able to experience again.  But my head is in a different place now.  I go to museums in different cities.  Gateway Theater for the Performing Arts is minutes from my house so my husband and I see five Broadway caliber shows each summer for a total of $400, and get home by 11:00 when it would 2 AM before we would get home from a NYC night show.  There are more good restaurants where I live and vacation than I can keep up with.  Our days of late nightlife are long over so what I considered the most unique aspect of New York City is no longer an attraction.

However, you must have wanted a New York City trip or you wouldn't have booked it initially.  Don't let the owners lounge issue ruin what you had thought about doing, planned on doing, and wanted to do.  

Go and have a great time.


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## taterhed (May 12, 2016)

HI-larious.

I didn't even bother reading all the posts.

"....Listen lulu-bell;  somewhere, you can hear an HGVC salesman getting his 'wings' as he reads this freaking thread and laughs his  A** off!"  :hysterical:

Such a joke. 

The property either makes money--or it doesn't.  More demand equals less frills.  Less demand; more frills.

People won't book Waiohai because they KNOW which units MR points users and (non-owner) exchangers get.

Well, if you don't like the policy......don't exchange for the unit.

JM2c.  IMHO, YMMV, etc...etc


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## MelanieB (May 13, 2016)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Your key phrase is "equal value" exchange.
> 
> So using your logic, then why don't HGVC owners get access to your RCI, DVC or Starwood Elite benefits and lounges when we stay on your property?  Where's the quid pro quo? (and please don't tell me a kitchen is an "elite benefit.")



I did not say that all exchanges should be of "equal value".  What I said was that exchanges have historically been simple trades, and if you don't think you're getting equal value for the exchange - and this matters to you - then the obvious solution is to _not trade_.

To answer your question:

You don't get my "elite" DVC benefits when you trade into DVC because they are funded *by the developer*, as a sales incentive of direct purchase, NOT paid for out of maintenance fees.  They are not an amenity of the property, and are not incorporated into the operating costs of the resort.  In fact, DVC has recently restricted those very same benefits to resale purchasers.  And they are only legally able to do that _because_ they are developer funded perks.  Moreover, if DVD (the developer of DVC properties) goes bankrupt tomorrow, or stops selling timeshare units, or just doesn't feel like it anymore, those perks will immediately disappear for everyone, because nobody will be paying for them.

This is fundamentally different from a lounge funded by owner maintenance fees, and considered part of the operating cost of the property.  And that is exactly the point I was trying to make.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 13, 2016)

MelanieB said:


> I did not say that all exchanges should be of "equal value".  What I said was that exchanges have historically been simple trades, and if you don't think you're getting equal value for the exchange - and this matters to you - then the obvious solution is to _not trade_.
> 
> To answer your question:
> 
> ...



So just because the DVC accountants put it under developers fees and HGVC sticks it to the owners  this entitles exchangers to the elite benefit?  Last I checked both DVC and HGVC are for-profit companies so they will make their return one way or the other.

Your argument further supports that there is and UNEQUAL value exchange. No only is there no quid pro quo (because of a "developer fee" technicality), you paid how much for your timeshare and it is currently worth how much resale? 

New York is different. Why? Because owners pay more than most timeshare owners in maintenance fees (which includes the cost of lounge services) and paid $15,000 - $100,000+ more for their deed. Condos across the street sell for $3000/sq foot per the WSJ this week.  (That's $3.6M for a 1,200 sq ft unit my friends - one of the highest in the world.)

If you don't like it, don't trade. Simple. But please stop this attitude of entitlement and expect others to subsidize your vacation meals, especially when you don't offer the same.

(I am now going to have some danish and bad wine...)


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## buzglyd (May 13, 2016)

CalGalTraveler said:


> So just because the DVC accountants put it under developers fees and HGVC sticks it to the owners  this entitles exchangers to the elite benefit?  Last I checked both DVC and HGVC are for-profit companies so they will make their return one way or the other.
> 
> Your argument further supports that there is and UNEQUAL value exchange. No only is there no quid pro quo (because of a "developer fee" technicality), you paid how much for your timeshare and it is currently worth how much resale?
> 
> ...



Maybe once it goes Owners only they can up the quality of the snacks and wine.


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## Luanne (May 13, 2016)

My biggest beef with this would be, "if" I had traded in expecting a certain level of service, then found out later I wouldn't be getting it.  Worse yet is if I cancelled due to this change I would be penalized.

If it is something I know ahead of time I can then make the choice whether or not to make the exchange.


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## holdaer (May 13, 2016)

CalGalTraveler said:


> ......
> 
> (I am now going to have some danish and bad wine...)




Life is too short to have bad wine, after all this back and forth, treat yourself to the good stuff.....you've earned it.

BTW, you're right on all your points.  Amazing how many here don't get it and will talk about ocean views, kitchens and other non-relevant stuff.

Yes, it's a bummer that a benefit was taken away after someone booked their vacation.  Someone was going to be impacted no matter when the change gets implemented.  Life goes on and Hilton Club NY is in a great location to see NYC.

Now, back to the wine.......


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## brp (May 13, 2016)

Jason245 said:


> Even if that were true, as a diamond HHonors who has gotten all these perks at hotels I can tell you that like airport lounges, they are more hype than substance.



You may not have spent much time at the British Airways First Lounges at Heathrow, then 

Cheers.


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## brp (May 13, 2016)

holdaer said:


> Yes, it's a bummer that a benefit was taken away after someone booked their vacation.  Someone was going to be impacted no matter when the change gets implemented.  Life goes on and Hilton Club NY is in a great location to see NYC.
> 
> Now, back to the wine.......



Not necessarily. They could have changed for all reservations *booked* after a certain date rather than pulling the plug on existing reservations. I, for the most part, agree with the restrictions, but not with the way they did it.

OK, off to find a nice Cabernet to pair with the New York strip that I'm about to grill 

Cheers.


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## Sandy VDH (May 13, 2016)

brp said:


> Not necessarily. They could have changed for all reservations *booked* after a certain date rather than pulling the plug on existing reservations. I, for the most part, agree with the restrictions, but not with the way they did it.
> 
> OK, off to find a nice Cabernet to pair with the New York strip that I'm about to grill
> 
> Cheers.



I call NYC location.  they told me that RCI email is incorrect.  All bookings Prior to June 1 2016 will allow lounge access, all bookings after June 1st, you MUST BE NYC HC Owner.


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## brp (May 13, 2016)

Sandy VDH said:


> I call NYC location.  they told me that RCI email is incorrect.  All bookings Prior to June 1 2016 will allow lounge access, all bookings after June 1st, you MUST BE NYC HC Owner.



Cool. Whether one likes the rule or not, at least it's fair warning. By the way, I assume that "all bookings Prior to June 1, 2016" means all bookings MADE prior to June 1, not all bookings for STAYS prior to June 1. Because that's a big difference.

Cheers.


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## Sandy VDH (May 13, 2016)

brp said:


> Cool. Whether one likes the rule or not, at least it's fair warning. By the way, I assume that "all bookings Prior to June 1, 2016" means all bookings MADE prior to June 1, not all bookings for STAYS prior to June 1. Because that's a big difference.
> 
> Cheers.




I have a June 26 checkin that I booked last september.  I called about this very thing.  

They told me I would get Lounge access for my booking. 

That is NOT what the RCI email said, but that is what I was told by the check in Desk at HC NYC when I called them direct to check this specific thing


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## brp (May 13, 2016)

Sandy VDH said:


> I have a June 26 checkin that I booked last september.  I called about this very thing.
> 
> They told me I would get Lounge access for my booking.
> 
> That is NOT what the RCI email said, but that is what I was told by the check in Desk at HC NYC when I called them direct to check this specific thing



This is well done. Either it was a mistake in the RCI email, or it was correct and Hilton have retrenched and done the right thing. Either way, good news for those with existing reservations....well, as good a news as one can have for plonk wine 

Cheers.


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## Sandy VDH (May 13, 2016)

brp said:


> This is well done. Either it was a mistake in the RCI email, or it was correct and Hilton have retrenched and done the right thing. Either way, good news for those with existing reservations....well, as good a news as one can have for plonk wine
> 
> Cheers.




I rarely drink the wine.  But I do like breakfast, and all day drinks/coffee.  I have been to this resort for the last 6 years running.  I will be sad when this perk goes, but I will still stay here.


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## brp (May 13, 2016)

Sandy VDH said:


> I rarely drink the wine.  But I do like breakfast, and all day drinks/coffee.  I have been to this resort for the last 6 years running.  I will be sad when this perk goes, but I will still stay here.



I hear that. We're at W. 57th, and the breakfast is generally OK on the weekend when they have little quiche. Otherwise, it's things like breads and bagels and oatmeal that we don't eat. So weekdays are less useful. But being able to pop in for an espresso at any time of the day is very nice. But I would definitely not consider this a make-or-break. As others have said, the offerings are OK at best. The location is far and away the key. And they'd have a hard time taking that away 

Cheers.


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## Jason245 (May 14, 2016)

brp said:


> You may not have spent much time at the British Airways First Lounges at Heathrow, then
> 
> Cheers.


Air France first Class lounge at cdg. . As well as lounges in Atl,  miami,  fll, tgl, new york.. 

After the first time when you feel "special"... the glitz wears off..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## brp (May 14, 2016)

Jason245 said:


> Air France first Class lounge at cdg. . As well as lounges in Atl,  miami,  fll, tgl, new york..
> 
> After the first time when you feel "special"... the glitz wears off..



Maybe it's just different expectations. For me it's about quality product (food and drink), and a very nice and relaxed space. It's not about feeling special. And, yes, the HCNY lounge does not provide that...but others do.

Cheers.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 14, 2016)

holdaer said:


> Life is too short to have bad wine, ...



Thanks for your kind words. Even though I live in vineyard country, I am a margarita gal...had a nice one with good tequila.  Cheers.

The poster that said, "More demand equals less frills. Less demand; more frills" is correct. The lounge at the Hilton Venice Stucky was overrun with HHonors Gold and Diamond members so the fare was mediocre and limited because people were madly stuffing their pockets with food.  Whereas the lounge at the Waldorf Cavalieri Rome is exceptional because it was limited. A peaceful view of Rome with all the premium alcohol you could drink and gourmet fare from the Michelin star restaurant upstairs. (BTW...They frequently run deals in the spring for $120 + 32,000 HHonors points, then buy the upgrade to the lounge that comes in email for an extra $60 a night.)


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## brp (May 14, 2016)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The lounge at the Hilton Venice Stucky was overrun with HHonors Gold and Diamond members so the fare was mediocre and limited because people were madly stuffing their pockets with food.  Whereas the lounge at the Waldorf Cavalieri Rome is exceptional because it was limited. )



Agree about the Molino Stucky. We went there (as Diamonds ), and it was just OK. Didn't see as much food theft (which is really lowbrow from my perspective) but the offerings were standard fare. We've stayed at the Cavalieri, but not been to the lounge. I don't know the rules for the Waldorfs, but the implication from your post is that Diamonds don't have status-based access. Sounds like that may be a good thing 

Cheers.


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## KathyA (May 16, 2016)

*Love it!*

As a HCNY owner, I'm thrilled with the change.  Last time we were there (about six months ago), a couple sitting next to us in the lounge told us over and over again that they were the smart ones because they just traded into HCNY whenever they could.  They paid far less for their own timeshare, and just traded into HCNY because of lounge access.  Kept making the point that the owners were suckers because we pay such high maintenance fees and as traders they can get these benefits without paying the fees; that they always used the evening appetizers as dinner and just camped out there for a few hours.  Sure enough, we were there a week, and every time we came into the lounge, this couple was there, usually taking up a table for four with their computers and things spread out all over the table.  Needless to say, this irritated a lot of owners who complained to Hilton.  That could be one reason they made the change.  Plus, this policy didn't hurt W. 57th Street from being an extremely popular place to trade. 

I pay a ton of maintenance fees.  My maintenance fees at HCNY are two and a half times what I pay for my Caribbean timeshare, which is a 2-bedroom lockout beach front.  I say good for Hilton.


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## Denise L (May 19, 2016)

Sandy VDH said:


> I called Hilton Club as I have an upcoming reservation.  I was told by Erin that bookings made prior to June 1, 2016 will still honor that perk.  Bookings made after June 1 St will be for Owners only, not even for HGVCLUB club members.  Which is more like W 57th location rules.



Just catching up with this thread (back from 4 nights at W57 ).  I have a HCNY exchange for October...do you think I need to call the resort to confirm that I will have lounge access due to booking prior to June 1?


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## 1Kflyerguy (May 20, 2016)

We are in New York this week and attended an owners update.  Without me even mentioning anything the sales guy brought up lounge access.  According to him, both West 57 and the original Hilton Club are over 95% sold so fully controlled by the HOA. He said it was each HOA and not HGVC corporate that decided to limit the access to just owners.


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## MelanieB (May 20, 2016)

CalGalTraveler said:


> If you don't like it, don't trade. Simple. But please stop this attitude of entitlement and expect others to subsidize your vacation meals, especially when you don't offer the same.



Whoa, where on earth did you detect an "attitude of entitlement" in anything I posted?  I've never been to HCNY, I'll probably never go there, and if I do, I really don't care whether or not I get access to the lounge (pretty sure I already said that upthread).  The only thing I feel "entitled" to is accommodation at the unit I OWN, and whatever services relating to that unit that I pay for on an ongoing basis via my maintenance fees.  The DVC example was an illustration, and an answer to your direct question.  I don't feel "entitled" to those DVC perks, and I wouldn't even if I'd bought that DVC property from the developer (which I didn't).  They could go away tomorrow, and there's not a thing I could do about it.  You're reading emotions into my posts that just aren't there.

What I was trying to do is explain the fundamental (and legal) difference between developer-funded elite perks and services funded through the operating costs of the resort, which are paid for by all owners, whether they're "elite" or not.  But since you persist on conflating the two, and clearly have no interest in trying to understand the answers to your own questions or anyone else's point of view - I'll stop.

This issue is *not* unique to New York.  It applies to any high cost property.


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