# Ocean Pointe 2023 MF's - More Than 25% Increase !!



## rudy (Oct 27, 2022)

Just took a quick glance at my Ocean Point Association fees. Everything went up 10% or less, EXCEPT for the reserve fee which increased by nearly 50% - This cannot be correct? (wishful think on my part) Is it?reserve fee jumped from 535.74 to 1011.27 with an increase of 475.53 for an. 88% increase.  To add insult to injury the added a special reserve fee 198.24.  How can this be justified


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## Fasttr (Oct 27, 2022)

Is this from an invoice, or from a proposed budget.  If proposed budget, it likely is based on fully funded reserves, which likely will be waived, so final would be less.


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## rudy (Oct 27, 2022)

Fasttr said:


> Is this from an invoice, or from a proposed budget.  If proposed budget, it likely is based on fully funded reserves, which likely will be waived, so final would be less.


It came in the mail with the notice of the annual meeting, so you are probably correct in that it is a proposed budget.  Thanks for saving my night's rest


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## dougp26364 (Nov 29, 2022)

There was a post on an Ocean Pointe FB Group complaining that the fees for OP went up 28%.

I haven’t been home yet to check, but if true that means my MF are nearly $500 higher this year and the fee to DC point ratio is about dead even.

I’m beginning to wonder of the TRUE motivation is to equal the MF/point ratio to be dead even so as to remove any possibility that owners can say, I’d rather keep my deed than convert to pure points.


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## dougp26364 (Nov 29, 2022)

If memory serves me correctly, it’s up approx $500. A FB group posted it’s a 28% increase and I don’t doubt it.

I want to know why the cash reserve fee is over $1,000. Did they fail to waive the requirement to fully fund the reserve? NONE of the other resorts require that sort of cash reserve.



hangloose said:


> Marriott Ocean Pointe - 3BR Platinum Oceanfront Annual
> 
> *Total:  $2993.19*
> 
> ...


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## dougp26364 (Nov 29, 2022)

Has anyone noticed this years MF’s? They’re u substantially with cash reserves on a 3 bedroom over $1,000.

our silver season 3 bedroom is $2,886 this year. Last year it was around $2,400. They haven’t posted the budget yet but I really want to see how they validate this sort of increase


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## pedro47 (Nov 30, 2022)

dougp26364 said:


> Has anyone noticed this years MF’s? They’re u substantially with cash reserves on a 3 bedroom over $1,000.
> 
> our silver season 3 bedroom is $2,886 this year. Last year it was around $2,400. They haven’t posted the budget yet but I really want to see how they validate this sort of increase


Wow! That is over a 10 % increase.


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## hangloose (Nov 30, 2022)

dougp26364 said:


> If memory serves me correctly, it’s up approx $500. A FB group posted it’s a 28% increase and I don’t doubt it.
> 
> I want to know why the cash reserve fee is over $1,000. Did they fail to waive the requirement to fully fund the reserve? NONE of the other resorts require that sort of cash reserve.


Edited my post, as I was able to find 2022 Fees.  Up *26.1%* for the 3BR OF Annual Plat.  Ouch!  That the highest increase I've ever seen for my MVCI properties, by far...even with hurricane adds, etc.

No detail from Ocean Pointe yet on why.  Normally, they send a MFee breakdown with a newsletter as to why.   Will move this to the normal MF Discussion thread.


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## hangloose (Nov 30, 2022)

Just updated my 3BR OF Plat Annual.  It went up *26.1%* YTY.  Ouch! 

I would love to hear more on why, with input from the OP Board.  Normally, the GM will send a newsletter I think attached to the MFee package.   I haven't seen that yet.   Rumor is that it's tied to the reserves increasing perhaps due to FL law changing, but not positive.   Hoping this is just a 2023 increase, vs multi-year or ongoing.  At $3k, OP is getting pricey.   Maybe I need to think about using my MGV via Florida Club to trade in more often...as it's a little over half the MFees.   

Do we still have someone here which sits on the OP Board?  Missing the input from the prior Yahoo Group, which was always very helpful.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 30, 2022)

_*Moderator Note*: Posts from several threads have been moved to this one. Obviously the extremely high MF's increase this year at Ocean Pointe warrants its own thread. Please keep the discussion limited to this thread. Thanks!_


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## SueDonJ (Nov 30, 2022)

Based on the breakdown in the quoted info in Post #5 above, I'm guessing that the owners didn't vote in favor of waiving Fully-Funded Reserves this year. This thread has a detailed discussion about Fully-Funded Reserves mandates and waivers: MVC Trust Owners Association - Reserve Funding Waiver etc?


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## DIB (Nov 30, 2022)

I recall hearing a month or so ago that the OP Reserve Fees were going up significantly due to a one time special assessment to repair the Kingfish roof which had some defects/Issues. But I can not verify whether or not this is true. And that the assessment was likely to spread out over a few years.  No other info has yet been made available to OP owners that I am aware, but I am emailing the Board via MVCI as well as the MVCI admin person at OP who deals with the Board.  My Platinum 3BR OF reserve fee went from $500 last year to $1087.92 this cycle. My Platinum 2BR OS went from $457 to $904.25.  I do not know whether all of the increase is due to the Kingfish roof, or whether some is due to a desire to fund Reserves at a higher percentage than previously.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 30, 2022)

I would think MVC has considerable voting power on these things. IIRC a bunch of years ago the waiving of fully funded reserves failed at Cypress Harbour. I would think in order for something like this to fail it would require MVC voting their shares to not waive fully funded reserves.


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## ruthquilts (Nov 30, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> Based on the breakdown in the quoted info in Post #5 above, I'm guessing that the owners didn't vote in favor of waiving Fully-Funded Reserves this year. This thread has a detailed discussion about Fully-Funded Reserves mandates and waivers: MVC Trust Owners Association - Reserve Funding Waiver etc?


As an owner, it is 3 years since I received information about voting or about the annual meeting.  Right now, there is a 1 hr wait to talk to an agent about verifying my email address, as I don't seem to be getting any information from MVC at all.  Further, when I went to sign in it is now asking for my owner ID, and tells me I can find it by looking at the paper bill for maintenance fees, which I have not received in 3 years, or checking on the website, which I can't log into because it doesn't accept the owner ID I have on record to allow me to log in!

I would have voted in favor of waiving the fees.  Maybe I am not the only one not getting information.


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## pedro47 (Nov 30, 2022)

Are the fees increasing over 10% in Florida because of all the serve hurricanes damages this past season ?
Are resorts insurance preimum costs sky rocketing for 2023????


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## TheTimeTraveler (Nov 30, 2022)

As I understand it, the Kingfish roofing system needs to go thru a major structural rebuild and it's going to cost mega dollars (some serious issue recently discovered which should have been dealt with during initial construction back in 2006)   I believe some of the building may need to be shut down in stages as this project proceeds. 

I believe they will attempt starting this in January 2023 (last I had heard).   And they say it will be very expensive!



.


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## Superchief (Nov 30, 2022)

It's hard to believe that my silver season 2BR oceanside MF's at Ocean Pointe are now higher than my gold week at Oceana Palms. This is unacceptable and owners need to contact the board and MVC management. MF's are getting out of control as MVC is starting to treat owners like hotel franchisers and expect us to pay for all of their unnecessary buttons and whistles. Who is the GM now at Ocean Pointe? Is it the same guy who caused major increases when he was at Oceana Palms?


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## Vacation fun (Dec 2, 2022)

Ok …I get it on everyone being upset … but it is my understanding that due to the roof replacement needed in Kingfish … it has resulted in a ONE time assessment fee of about $500 per unit for this budget . I know that is high and not want we want but to not do the replacement could result in water damages and water intrusion … so it is better to resolve it.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 2, 2022)

Vacation fun said:


> Ok …I get it on everyone being upset … but it is my understanding that due to the roof replacement needed in Kingfish … it has resulted in a ONE time assessment fee of about $500 per unit for this budget . I know that is high and not want we want but to not do the replacement could result in water damages and water intrusion … so it is better to resolve it.


Shouldn’t the SA be separated out in its own line item instead of being lumped in to the Replacement Reserves?


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## Superchief (Dec 2, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> ?Shouldn’t the SA be separated out in its own line item instead of being lumped in to the Replacement Reserves?


I agree. Additionally, if it was a design flaw shouldn't MVC management be responsible for paying for these repairs? Do they get their 10% fee on this $500


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## Wahoo (Dec 2, 2022)

Here is the explanation from the Ocean Pointe board, included with the annual maintenance fee statement:


> "Dear Marriott’s Ocean Pointe Owner, The accompanying 2023 Operating Budget includes a line item for a “Special Reserve Fee” in the amount of $3,481,533. This is because, in November 2021, the Resort site team discovered that there were sections of the east elevation soffits of the Kingfish Building that were cracking and breaking free from the building. These are the building’s areas that are most exposed to the ocean and frequent storms, as this building is uniquely positioned adjacent to the Inlet, thereby sustaining direct wind/saltwater impact from the South and East.





> After engaging a 3rd party engineering firm to review the issue, it was determined that the best solution to address the deficiencies was to replace the tile roof system, including the repair and replacement of roof trusses and supports. Additionally, a replacement was recommended for those soffits in their entirety, as well as to apply a coating to protect against future cracking and/or breaking caused by rust or corrosion.





> The Resort Management team facilitated an extensive review of the project scope with potential contractors and secured a proposal to address all involved repairs at a cost of $4,460,731, a project that will span the period from late Winter 2023, through the end of the year. The Special Reserve Fee is less than total project cost due to our use of already existing Reserve funds previously allocated to roof replacement.





> We very much understand and empathize with all owners as to the impact and magnitude of this required maintenance fee increase. We want you to know that we will work diligently, notwithstanding unforeseen circumstances, to moderate future maintenance fee increases to every extent possible, while at the same time providing the Resort services and amenities you deserve and expect. This includes current consideration of moving to a six (versus five) year villa renovation cycle in an effort to moderate costs. The Board of Directors truly cares for every owner, and genuinely appreciates your continued loyalty and support.





> Sincerely, Ocean Pointe at Palm Beach Shores Condominium Association, Inc. Board of Directors"


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## dougp26364 (Dec 3, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Shouldn’t the SA be separated out in its own line item instead of being lumped in to the Replacement Reserves?


I agree it probably should have been set out as an SA rather than an increase to the cash reserves. 

The BOD should also have been out in front of this and communicated with owners so we could plan for the financial impact, especially at this time of year. 

Perhaps Abound Points affect how best to allocate this extra expense. Maybe by putting it in the budget as part of the cash reserve it’s added into the calculations for Abound Points MF calculations. IOW, this is how it must be done so points owners who have access to Ocean Pointe share in the cost, even if it’s just a small amount. If it was just an SA, perhaps the cost would be shouldered solely by Ocean Pointe owners? 

Still, if the BOD had been out in front of this with a notification of the additional cost BFORE leveling owners with a larger than expected bill, it would have relieved some anxiety and anger when I received the bill. 

Now I want to know what their thinking is going forward. Is this a one off expense and my MF’s return to a more normal state next year?  Is this going to be the norm going forward? 

 Perhaps now owners see why FL has their fully funded law that just be waived by owners each year. Had the resort been fully funded, we might not have seen this spike. Of course the MF’s would have been extraordinarily higher each year, so a one time shot line this isn’t necessarily so bad


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## dioxide45 (Dec 3, 2022)

Superchief said:


> I agree. Additionally, if it was a design flaw shouldn't MVC management be responsible for paying for these repairs? Do they get their 10% fee on this $500


I believe in the situation with the Aruba Ocean Club where there were deficiencies in the roof construction, Marriott I think covered half the cost of the repair. In that situation the original builder/contractor was out business. It doesn’t look like MVC is covering half the cost here…


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## hangloose (Dec 3, 2022)

Wahoo - Thanks for posting the board response.

All - Do we know if this is a 1 yr added line item, or will it be multi-year?


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## dioxide45 (Dec 3, 2022)

dougp26364 said:


> I agree it probably should have been set out as an SA rather than an increase to the cash reserves.
> 
> The BOD should also have been out in front of this and communicated with owners so we could plan for the financial impact, especially at this time of year.
> 
> ...


I agree, there should have been communication BEFORE sending out the MF bills. This would be like being an employee at a company and getting to your annual review for them to give you a “doesn’t meet expectations” rating. Shouldn’t this be part of ongoing communications by the board to owners? Does the board provide an annual or semi annual newsletter to owners?


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## Superchief (Dec 3, 2022)

It will be interesting to see whether the 10% management fee was applied to  this $500.


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## pedro47 (Dec 3, 2022)

Can Marriott's suit the original contractor for poor workmanship?


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## SueDonJ (Dec 3, 2022)

I vaguely remember other resorts where SA's designated for specific immediate, unexpected needs were rolled into the Reserves rather than being designated as SA's on a line item - maybe the recent Monarch 4-year assessment that included repairs due to unexpected water intrusion issues? It was at the same time as or shortly after the Hurricane Matthew-related SA's were assessed on the Hilton Head resort budgets as "Disaster Recovery Fee" line items rather than SA's, so after 2017? (The 10% Mgmt Fee was not assessed on those.)

There's definitely a trend away from line items designated "Special Assessment" but there's no reason why owners shouldn't be prepared in advance with the complete explanation of a coming SA, especially at the resorts where it's mandated that the estimated budget be furnished to owners in advance of the Annual Meeting packet. That's just poor service from the board.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 3, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I agree, there should have been communication BEFORE sending out the MF bills. This would be like being an employee at a company and getting to your annual review for them to give you a “doesn’t meet expectations” rating. Shouldn’t this be part of ongoing communications by the board to owners? Does the board provide an annual or semi annual newsletter to owners?


I don’t recall ever receiving a new letter for our BOD other than what’s ordinarily sent out with the MF billing. For that matter, I do t recall getting communication from either Grand Chateau or Shadow Ridge.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 3, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> Can Marriott's suit the original contractor for poor workmanship?


This far down the road it’s unlikely.

I’m certain that, at the time the resort was built, it met all design and construction requirements/standards. The location of this building g provides more exposure to wind and salt water. Something that might not have been taken into consideration at the time Kingfish was built. Sometimes you just can’t foresee all the potential hazards and you learn from experience, adjust building codes and practice and move forward. Experience is a better teacher than text books.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 3, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> I vaguely remember other resorts where SA's designated for specific immediate, unexpected needs were rolled into the Reserves rather than being designated as SA's on a line item - maybe the recent Monarch 4-year assessment that included repairs due to unexpected water intrusion issues? It was at the same time as or shortly after the Hurricane Matthew-related SA's were assessed on the Hilton Head resort budgets as "Disaster Recovery Fee" line items rather than SA's, so after 2017? (The 10% Mgmt Fee was not assessed on those.)
> 
> There's definitely a trend away from line items designated "Special Assessment" but there's no reason why owners shouldn't be prepared in advance with the complete explanation of a coming SA, especially at the resorts where it's mandated that the estimated budget be furnished to owners in advance of the Annual Meeting packet. That's just poor service from the board.


I have had issues with this board in the past. I voiced concerns and was, essentially, shouted down by a board member. I removed myself from that online group and initially blocked this thread until I saw this years annual bill. I only unblocked this thread to see if anyone could explain why such an increase. 

I haven’t checked my mail yet this morning. Nothing was in my mailbox yesterday. On a FB Ocean Pointe owners group someone posted the information as to why there was a need for the increase. The explanation was reasonable.

I would have liked advance warning. I certainly would have felt better and less angry at the board. Advance notice would also have given owners time to plan and budget for this hit. There is NO WAY they didn’t know this would make a significant impact on the budget. They might not have had the exact figure, but they could still have let owners know there would be a significant increase. This was a MAJOR fail and shows little concern for Ocean Pointe owners IMHO. 

At this point they need to be telling owners of this is a one time hit and the fees will go back down next year or, do we need to plan for this sort of end-of-year bill for 2024?


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## Fasttr (Dec 3, 2022)

Grande Ocean’s GM puts out an annual letter to owners (6 or 7 pages) a month or so before the MFs come out explaining goings on at the resort, what’s been done in the last year, what’s planned for the upcoming year, along with other resort related info.  Don’t all resorts do this?  Seems like this would have been a great place to explain the issue to minimize surprise.


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## pedro47 (Dec 3, 2022)

Fasttr said:


> Grande Ocean’s GM puts out an annual letter to owners (6 or 7 pages) a month or so before the MFs come out explaining goings on at the resort, what’s been done in the last year, what’s planned for the upcoming year, along with other resort related info.  Don’t all resorts do this?  Seems like this would have been a great place to explain the issue to minimize surprise.


A simple answer to your question *No. All resort managers do not send out an annual letter to the owners a month before MFs are due.*


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## dougp26364 (Dec 3, 2022)

Fasttr said:


> Grande Ocean’s GM puts out an annual letter to owners (6 or 7 pages) a month or so before the MFs come out explaining goings on at the resort, what’s been done in the last year, what’s planned for the upcoming year, along with other resort related info.  Don’t all resorts do this?  Seems like this would have been a great place to explain the issue to minimize surprise.


Every resort we own EXCEPT for our Marriott resorts. 

I do get some of the BOD meeting notes, which doesn’t have a lot in them and usually something explaining the increase in MF’s, but nothing like a newsletter.

To the other end of the spectrum, we receive a resort update newsletter every month for the management team with Breckenridge Grand Vacations. Even Spinnaker Resorts, which I consider a bottom feeder amung timeshare resorts, sends out a quarterly newsletter. There’s not much in it but they send us something each quarter. Grand Chateau, Shadow Ridge, Ocean Pointe and trust points………crickets. 

Concerning trust points you’d like to think Marriott could send out something about the important goings on at various resorts in the collection. After 21 years of owning I’ve come to understand it’s not going to happen.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 3, 2022)

Fasttr said:


> Grande Ocean’s GM puts out an annual letter to owners (6 or 7 pages) a month or so before the MFs come out explaining goings on at the resort, what’s been done in the last year, what’s planned for the upcoming year, along with other resort related info.  Don’t all resorts do this?  Seems like this would have been a great place to explain the issue to minimize surprise.


Harbour Lake usually sends out a spring and fall newsletter. We often get one for Vistana Villages too. I randomly see one from Grande Vista, but nothing consistent.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 3, 2022)

Superchief said:


> It will be interesting to see whether the 10% management fee was applied to  this $500.


Does anyone actually have the budget breakdown that would normally be available online? If so, @SueDonJ can do the math for us.


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## billymach4 (Dec 4, 2022)

I am confused? Do we expect this to be a one time fee of $500 for 2023 at Ocean Pointe? Call it an SA or whatever it is?
If it's a one time fee aka assessment it does not become a permanent increase. I do understand nobody wants to pay more whatsoever. If it's one and done then I can deal with that.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 4, 2022)

billymach4 said:


> I am confused? Do we expect this to be a one time fee of $500 for 2023 at Ocean Pointe? Call it an SA or whatever it is?
> If it's a one time fee aka assessment it does not become a permanent increase. I do understand nobody wants to pay more whatsoever. If it's one and done then I can deal with that.


This is part of the owners frustration. We don’t know! Communication between the BOD and owners is as poor as anything I’ve ever seen. They’ve hit us with a huge increase without so much as a letter or email to explain it.


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## Superchief (Dec 4, 2022)

I hope someone can provide the email addresses of the board members so owners can contact them regarding their poor management regarding this issue. Perhaps they would then appreciate the importance of communication. I agree with Doug that one board member is totally arrogant and unhelpful and I try to vote them off at every opportunity. However, I never received my ballots from Ocean Pointe this year.


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## billymach4 (Dec 4, 2022)

dougp26364 said:


> This is part of the owners frustration. We don’t know! Communication between the BOD and owners is as poor as anything I’ve ever seen. They’ve hit us with a huge increase without so much as a letter or email to explain it.


 Indeed we've now find ourselves in a crisis. I am not being sarcastic whatsoever. I consider the  Audience and members of this thread and tug2.net to be the eminent worldwide authority on Marriott consumer time sharing at ocean pointe.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 4, 2022)

If it is $500 per unit week, if my math is right, that means that the amount being collected is over $8 million! I suspect they sold 51 unit weeks and there are 341 units. Now the 3BR units might have a higher assessment, but assuming every week is $500 then it is 341 x $500 x 51 = $8,695,500


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## billymach4 (Dec 4, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> If it is $500 per unit week, if my math is right, that means that the amount being collected is over $8 million! I suspect they sold 51 unit weeks and there are 341 units. Now the 3BR units might have a higher assessment, but assuming every week is $500 then it is 341 x $500 x 51 = $8,695,500


 While I agree with your statement I don't want to say I like it with the  Thumbs up.


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## Vacation1 (Dec 5, 2022)

FYI - Here is a letter dated October 24, 2022 outlining the reserve fee increase and why. The increase is due mainly to a special reserve fee for the Kingfish roof repair.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 5, 2022)

Vacation1 said:


> FYI - Here is a letter dated October 24, 2022 outlining the reserve fee increase and why. The increase is due mainly to a special reserve fee for the Kingfish roof repair.


This looks to be an estimated budget. That means that the "Reserve Fee" is disclosed based on not waiving fully funded reserves. The "Special Reserve Fee" is only about $198 per unit week. Not $500. Has a final billed amount been sent to owners? Does anyone have the final 2023 budget breakdown that is usually provided with the bill?


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## MOXJO7282 (Dec 5, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> This looks to be an estimated budget. That means that the "Reserve Fee" is disclosed based on not waiving fully funded reserves. The "Special Reserve Fee" is only about $198 per unit week. Not $500. Has a final billed amount been sent to owners? Does anyone have the final 2023 budget breakdown that is usually provided with the bill?


This is exactly what happened with the Marriott Monarch and the higher reserve number was dropped and it only ended up being 7.63% higher than 2022. Let's hope this is the case here.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 5, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> This looks to be an estimated budget. That means that the "Reserve Fee" is disclosed based on not waiving fully funded reserves. The "Special Reserve Fee" is only about $198 per unit week. Not $500. Has a final billed amount been sent to owners? Does anyone have the final 2023 budget breakdown that is usually provided with the bill?


The quoted breakdown in Post #5 above (which I moved to this thread for discussion) is what was posted to the 2023 MF's sticky thread by @hangloose. It shows $1,000+ for Reserves on a 3BR unit, and I assumed (I know, I know) it was the actual *billed* amount since it was posted in the sticky thread.

Post #21 above has quoted info from the Ocean Pointe board that appears to support such a large increase? I agree, though, it would be helpful if @hangloose and @Wahoo could verify that the MF's have been *billed* as they're posted in the MF's sticky thread and that all owners were sent the same explanation.


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## billymach4 (Dec 5, 2022)

When I get back home later this week I will look thru my stack of mail in my inbox. Someone here on TUG must have it handy?
After all this is TUG and there are plenty of Ocean Pointe owners here.

In the interim I am going to check online at my account.


dioxide45 said:


> This looks to be an estimated budget. That means that the "Reserve Fee" is disclosed based on not waiving fully funded reserves. The "Special Reserve Fee" is only about $198 per unit week. Not $500. Has a final billed amount been sent to owners? Does anyone have the final 2023 budget breakdown that is usually provided with the bill?


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## billymach4 (Dec 5, 2022)




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## billymach4 (Dec 5, 2022)




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## billymach4 (Dec 5, 2022)

I realize these images may not be easy to read. Let me try and work some editing magic. It's a tough life being me on a vacation at the moment.


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## billymach4 (Dec 5, 2022)

Attached


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## billymach4 (Dec 5, 2022)

Does anyone know a good way to get a sharp image from a pdf to copy/edit/paste or attach to a post here?
The images are not posting with a clear readable format.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 5, 2022)

The 2022 Replacement Reserve for a 2BR Plat was $525.72. This year they are saying they would like to keep it between $850 and $1,100 and landed on setting it at $992.35 as an estimate. But they are also adding the ~$200 special assessment. That SA comes to $3,481,533. They anticipate the Kingfish remediation to cost $4,460,731. So it seems they are going to either take the extra million from the Replacement Reserves or from the Operating Capital (2022 overage) that they are carrying in to 2023 as a "slush fund". This all seems very off. What is the explanation for the huge increase in the "Replacement Fee". Why would it need to go up $350 to $600 when they are also adding a special assessment fee that covers most of the repairs needed to Kingfish?


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## dioxide45 (Dec 5, 2022)

Adding. Looking at the documents attached. The BOD financials meeting is set for November 9, 2022. This is not yet a finalized budget. I would still really question why they need to set the "Reserve Fee" between $850 and $1,100 when the prior year fee was more in the $550 range. That makes no sense, especially when collecting the SA.

I wonder if the Reserve Fee range isn't a mandatory calculation based on some FL statute. Fully funding the reserve at the $1209.51 amount may also be taking in to consideration fully repairing all the issues at hand with Kingfish that they are also special assessing for.


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## Vacation1 (Dec 6, 2022)

Here is the Ocean Pointe finalized budget that is listed on the MVC website with the invoice.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 6, 2022)

Vacation1 said:


> Here is the Ocean Pointe finalized budget that is listed on the MVC website with the invoice.


So there are two Reserves line items, the usual and a "Special Reserves Fee."

The assessed Special Reserves are 2BR = $194.53 and 3BR = $234.05. (IMO, that's not an outrageous amount if it's a one-time assessment dedicated to Kingfish issues.)

But the usual Reserves are 2BR $709.72 and 3BR $853.87, which the line item says is a 35% increase?!?! These are high compared to my SurfWatch 3BR which this year assessed $446.25 for Reserves, PLUS they're looking at extending the reno/refurb schedule from the usual 5yrs to 6yrs?!?! Wow.

_{eta} I'm still assuming that the Ocean Pointe 3BR MF's posted in the sticky thread and copied in Post #5 in this thread are the actual billed MF's, confirmed by the $1,087.92 Reserves billed  -$853.87 and $234.05 = $1,087.92.

(That's it for me, I've reached my math quota through at least June 2023.)_


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## Steve Fatula (Dec 6, 2022)

Why not contact the BOD? I did last year for a different property to clear up some questions about the MF, got an answer within a day. Or are they not reachable? Seems better than speculating?


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## dioxide45 (Dec 6, 2022)

Best I can tell from my math is that the management fee is not being levied against the special assessment. But the entire SA doesn't cover the full cost of Kingfish remediation so it looks like they have also inflated the Reserve Fee pretty significantly, perhaps to cover the additional $1 million in repairs. That full Reserve Fee is used to calculate the 10% management fee.


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## Superchief (Dec 6, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Best I can tell from my math is that the management fee is not being levied against the special assessment. But the entire SA doesn't cover the full cost of Kingfish remediation so it looks like they have also inflated the Reserve Fee pretty significantly, perhaps to cover the additional $1 million in repairs. That full Reserve Fee is used to calculate the 10% management fee.


This was probably a key reason that they decided to cover it in the regular reserve fee so poor management can be rewarded with increased income. Owners need to find ways to provide their dissatisfaction with management and the boards for this and some other resorts that are taking advantage of their authority.


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## Luvtoride (Dec 6, 2022)

My 2 cents.  I'm not trying to play devil's advocate, but repairs and maintenance of these properties is a cost that all of us owners share.
I own a 3-bedroom week at Ocean Pointe and am not happy about the increase in MF and the Special Assessment either, but it has to be paid for.  Damages such as the roof at the Kingfish building could not have been anticipated or avoided by any management action.  

A few years ago, our resort sustained damage from a hurricane (I forget which one) which caused an increase in MFs due to insurance deductible costs and higher insurance premiums subsequently.  Although not handled as a special assessment, we still had to pay these costs.  
As was noted in letter from the board, other cost saving measures will be considered to control costs going forward, such as adding a year to the villa renovation cycle.  

We all knew what we were signing up for when purchasing our timeshares (and are reminded of by all of the "timeshare exit company" ads).  Its unfortunate that its hitting at the same time as inflationary cost increases that almost every timeshare owner is experiencing this year.  I know that I will still enjoy my visits to the beach at Singer Island and consider my out of pocket annual cost reasonable for the type of resort and accommodations we have there.  
Happy Holidays to all.


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## billymach4 (Dec 6, 2022)

Luvtoride said:


> My 2 cents.  I'm not trying to play devil's advocate, but repairs and maintenance of these properties is a cost that all of us owners share.
> I own a 3-bedroom week at Ocean Pointe and am not happy about the increase in MF and the Special Assessment either, but it has to be paid for.  Damages such as the roof at the Kingfish building could not have been anticipated or avoided by any management action.
> 
> A few years ago, our resort sustained damage from a hurricane (I forget which one) which caused an increase in MFs due to insurance deductible costs and higher insurance premiums subsequently.  Although not handled as a special assessment, we still had to pay these costs.
> ...


Yeah! It's the price we pay for our small slice of paradise.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 6, 2022)

What I don't understand is why total reserves (SA and Replacement Fee) are up nearly $400? Looking at that there is a total of an additional $6.75 million being collected for reserves. This is in addition to the $1 million in Operating Capital that appears to be a carry over of excess operating fee collected in 2021/2022 that simply isn't being given back to owners to keep the fees down.Why does the resort need nearly $8 million for something that is going to cost under $5 million. Why do they need to increase the reserve line item so much? Especially when they are moving to a six year refurbishment cycle which is meant to keep the fees lower. I understand the SA, but why not break it out completly from the Reserve Fee? Why a $184 per 2BR Plat unit week increase in the Reserve Fee?


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## SueDonJ (Dec 6, 2022)

Luvtoride said:


> My 2 cents.  I'm not trying to play devil's advocate, but repairs and maintenance of these properties is a cost that all of us owners share.
> I own a 3-bedroom week at Ocean Pointe and am not happy about the increase in MF and the Special Assessment either, but it has to be paid for.  Damages such as the roof at the Kingfish building could not have been anticipated or avoided by any management action.
> 
> A few years ago, our resort sustained damage from a hurricane (I forget which one) which caused an increase in MFs due to insurance deductible costs and higher insurance premiums subsequently.  Although not handled as a special assessment, we still had to pay these costs.
> ...


Brian, I completely agree that if/when there are valid reasons for dues increases then I don't begrudge the HOA boards assessing the ownership those fees. It's the process that's stipulated in the governing docs, but more importantly (IMO) it's what the owners should expect to happen if they want the high-quality Marriott-brand-standard to continue at their resorts.

But as someone else who has been assessed the same hurricane-related fees that you were assessed a few years ago, that were indicated as "Disaster Recovery Fees" line items at two of my resorts (and all of the HHI resorts) over a couple years, there is a right way and a wrong way for the HOA board to advise the ownership at large what's happening at the resort and why MF increases that don't conform to the norm are required. Even if they don't use the specific term "Special Assessment" and the Operating Budgets include line items to cover them that aren't familiar to owners, that doesn't mean they've done something wrong.

But in this case neither the Operating Budget nor the letter from the board fully explain what's happening at Ocean Pointe. Look at @dioxide45's post #62 - all of those questions are valid and should have been answered by the board before the owners even had a chance to ask them. Another question is, is this "Special Reserves Fee" a one-time thing, or might another be expected next year? The letter says work will be ongoing so it's possible new issues might arise that require more fees than what were budgeted. The letter also says that any shortfall might be covered by excess funds already in the Reserves and marked for roof-related needs, but if that's the case why is the normal Reserves line-item increase this year - not counting the separate Special Reserves Fee - as high as 35%?!

Again, I agree with you that the costs are charge-able to the owners and neither Marriott nor the board are wrong to assess owners for fees related to resort upkeep/repairs/refurbs. But there's absolutely no reason for Marriott/the board to not give owners a full explanation when fees are so far outside the normal parameters for MF's. This board's actions don't engender goodwill or trust, not by any stretch of the imagination, and if they don't want Bad Debt to increase exponentially then they'll respond correctly to the criticism AND the lingering questions.


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## billymach4 (Dec 6, 2022)

Steve Fatula said:


> Why not contact the BOD? I did last year for a different property to clear up some questions about the MF, got an answer within a day. Or are they not reachable? Seems better than speculating?


I will be drafting a letter along with an email. I  will be calling privately via DM for some technical accounting speak to key players in this thread
Hopefully I can get to this by next Monday.  No promises on the time-line. Just like everyone else I would like answers


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## dougp26364 (Dec 7, 2022)

I suppose it could be worse. I was reading an owner complain on a FB Abound group that their Westin St. week was now $5,100/year. If true I wonder what their default rate is on those weeks?

My complaint with the OP BOD is lack of transparency with how owners money is being spent. I understand maintenance. I understand unforeseen additional expenses. What I don’t understand is why there is no communication to explain why, how and where they are spending owners money. Several resorts we own send out newsletters that detail what is going on, what is currently being refurbished and what the plans are for future refurbishments (painting, tiles, carpeting, appliances, pool maintenance et……). We get nothing from the Ocean Pointe BOD

Owners wouldn’t feel ambushed if the BOD had communicated the unexpected need, the price, timeline and estimated costs per ownership. It would have been nice if owners had been given options that we could have communicated our preferences back to the BOD. I would expect the BOD to make the financial decisions of how to pay for the repairs/renovations as they felt best but,I would also have expected they would take owners opinion into consideration, then send out their rationalization for the path they’ve taken.

Handling things as they have creates suspicion, anger and resentment. I resent feeling as if the BOD believes I’m to stupid to understand the complexity of the situation. I’m suspicious because the numbers don’t appear to add up. I’m angry because I had no warning and I wasn’t afforded the opportunity to adjust my budget to pay for this expense.

Right now I have several projects going on around my home. Some are rather expensive and need to be done sooner rather than later. Some must be done now. Others could have been postponed a month or two. An extra $500 at the end of the year really isn’t enough to bankrupt most owners if it’s a one off event. However, in the context of the holiday season and extra expenses some owners might have, knowing ahead of time allows for adjustments to be made.

My personal feeling are that the BOD and current resort manager don’t care about the owners and fails to take into consideration each individual account may not be able to come up with that extra $500 easily at the end of the year. They’ll do what they want and the owners can pound sand, which is about all we can do at this point.


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## Luvtoride (Dec 7, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> . But there's absolutely no reason for Marriott/the board to not give owners a full explanation when fees are so far outside the normal parameters for MF's. This board's actions don't engender goodwill or trust, not by any stretch of the imagination, and if they don't want Bad Debt to increase exponentially then they'll respond correctly to the criticism AND the lingering questions.


SueDon, true, but there is nothing we can do about the fees, even with better more transparent communication.  I suppose we can act with our votes at the next board election time.


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## billymach4 (Dec 8, 2022)

In preparation for my letter to the Ocean Pointe Management and BOD can the experts in this thread please point me to where I might find the individual Director names and address,  email where they will receive official correspondence? 

@dougp26364 I will use your example of communication and request OP BOD take a better tack of communication. Let's see how far it gets me? I will certainly let them know TUG members are watching and reading.

I am secretly hoping someone at Mother MVC is reading our displeasure at this moment.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 8, 2022)

When it comes down to it, I believe the largest failure lies with the resort manager. IMHO that’s the central hub of communication between the BOD and owners. It would also be the person on the ground at all times with the resort and the person who should always know what’s going on. 

The BOD has a job to do. One of which should be ensuring effective communication is taking place. They’re who the owners rely on to communicate owners wants/needs to the resort manager. 

Essentially I view this as a complete failure on all parties involved and reflects poorly on the Marriott name. Someone above the resort manager and the BOD needs to take a look at this fiasco and make some decisions.

If I fail this spectacularly at my job, I know there are consequences. If I fail repeatedly at the same task, reassignment or termination become real possibilities. 

I need three things. I need the resort manager and BOD to recognize there is a problem. I want to know the plan to fix this problem. Finally I’d like an apology and a complete explanation and breakdown of the current situation, including estimates of future costs/expenditures. I’ve done enough construction projects to know that exact figures aren’t possible but reasonable estimates are, including worst case scenarios. 

At this point nearly all owners should have received communication. We’ve been owners since 2001 and we are Chairman level owners. To date I’ve received no communication and, since I’m using Apple products, haven’t been able to access my accounts online.

Funny story. At Crystal Shores their computers in the lobby where we printed our boarding passes were Macs.


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## Superchief (Dec 8, 2022)

I'm traveling now and haven't been home to check my mail (I still want paper copies of annual MF's). I'm anxious to see the detailed budget for this and my other resorts. It appears to me that more money is being spent on unnecessary things in order to inflate their resort ratings. Owners are becoming the minority at many resorts, so the management has less incentive to manage expenses. I've noticed that MF increases at most resorts have exceeded the increase of MF for points. This leads me to believe that the point reservations aren't providing their fair share of annual expenses for the resorts. 

I spoke with a MVC employee recently who said that MVC is trying to get rid of the weeks owners so they can convert the whole system to points. This may be their method of accomplishing that goal: get owners mad enough to sell so they can repurchase it at below market prices.


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## billymach4 (Dec 8, 2022)




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## billymach4 (Dec 8, 2022)

October 24, 2022
We are preparing once again for the fall meetings of the Ocean Pointe Finance Committee, the Board of
and the Annual Meeting ofthe Members. Enclosed, please find more details about the days and times of Directors,
meetings, all of which you are welcome to attend! Also enclosed IS the proposed
these
2023 Maintenance Fee The
State represents ofF thes fully funded amount. Therefore, the. Reserve Fee included on this proposed budget i is S1, 209. 51.
Florida requires the Association to submit proposed budget to you with a Reserve Fee amount that
Because of the method used to calculate and anticipate Reserve expenses, your Board of Directors has always
recommended waiving the requirement to fully fund the Reserves. With fully funding requiring
higher level of
Reserve contribution, your Board of Directors, with management company support, has prescribed to a cashflow
funding methodology which accounts for anticipated useful life of the resort's assets and ensures appropriate fund
balances will be in place to address future anticipated replacements
Dear Marriott'`s Ocean Pointe Owner:
In years past the fully funded amount has been significantly higher than the range recommended by the Board of
Directors. For 2023 you will notice the fully funded amount is $ 1,209.5 1 whereas the Board of Director's
recommended range is $850 - $ 1,100. The recommended range represents Reserve contribution required to fiund
our current 20-year renovations and the timing of urgent repairs to the Kingfish Building. Specifically, the
Kingfish Building will undergo extensive roof repair and replacement, along with the building's 20-year
renovation. Due to the nature of this special project, a special Reserve Fee is being collected as part of the 2023
overall Maintenance Fee, instead of a special assessment. This unanticipated major repair is due to deterioration
of the metal support structure of the Kingfish Building's roof from its direct exposure to salt water during
likelihood hurricanes. of The this problem remediation the will future. include roof coatings and applications
which willl help to greatly reduce the
The enclosed budget represents proposed amounts for the Operating Expenses and the Property Tax Fee. Ifthe
waiving fully funding from the reserves Operating Fee shown on this budget, and therefore the net proposed
passes, the Reserve Fee wll be lower than shown. The Management
the
issue off
Fee willl then? also ber reduced
increase for the 2023 Maintenance Fee would be in the range of 25% to 35% instead of the 43% to 46% increase
shown.
I am happy to report the Dolphin Building and Cobia Building will have completed their 20-year renovations by
year end, 2022. Additionally, renovation of the activities center, splash pad, Cobia and Sailfish Pool restrooms are
also planned for completion by year end. By year end 2023, in addition to an almost brand-new Kingfish
Building, nearly the entire resort campus will have been updated. The 20-year renovation of Pompano Building
and fitness center will be scheduled for 2024. Y our support has a huge impact on the resort experience!
As a member of the Association, your comments and/or presence are welcome at the Budget Meetings. The Board
of Directors will consider comments from Owners prior to taking any formal action on the proposed budget. As
noted on the enclosed proposed Agenda, open budget discussion with Members of the Association is scheduled
from 11:00 a.m. until 11:15 a.m. on November 9, 2022. A fter it is approved, a copy of the final 2023 Budget will
be mailed to Owners with the Maintenance Fee statements.
The Annual Meeting of Ocean Pointe at Palm Beach Shores Condominium Association, Ine. will be held on
November 9, 2022, at 1:00 p.m, the same day as the Board of Directors Meeting. Please take note of the location
of these Mectings to be held at the Palm Beach Gardens Marriott (see Reader Board for exact meeting room
location), 4000 RCA Boulevard, Palm Beach Gardens, Florida 334 10. To accommodate Owners planning to
attend any of these mectings, please RSVP to Kristina Gregg, Executive Administrator, by phone at 561-882-3008
or by email at Kristina.Gregg@vacationclub.com by November 4, 2022. If you have any questions regarding the
enclosed material, please contact me by phone at 561-882-3030 or by email at
Andrew.Mitchell@vacationclub.com.
Very sincerely yours,
Andrew Mitchell
General Manager
Marriott's Ocean Pointe


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## billymach4 (Dec 8, 2022)

Ocean Pointe at Palm Beach Shores Condominium Association, Inc. Finance Committee Meeting

November 8, 2022 9:00am, Eleme

Mamed's Ocean Pointe

Sailfish Lounge 71 Ocean Avenue Palm Beach Shores, Florida 33404

Agenda

• Call Onder

Establishment of Quorum and Roll Call

Appointment of Maming Chairperson

Appointment of Recording Secretary

Proof of Notice of Finance Commitee Meeting

Approval of Agenda

Approval of Finance Commitee Meeting Minutes May 17, 2002 Finance C Mos

September 2, 2022 Finance Ca tee Meeting Minun September 20, 2022 Finance Co Meeting Minutes

October 6, 2022 Finance Co mie Mriting Minutes

Investment Upda

Review of 2022 Financials and Forecast

Operating Fund Reserve Fund

Property Tax Fed Maintenance Fee Accounts Receivable

Reserve Fund Projects Review

Review of Proposed 2023 Emed Opering Badges

New Business

Establishes of 2023 Finance Come Meeting DatesOcean Pointe at Palm Beach Shores Condominium Association, Inc. Finance Committee Meeting

November 8, 2022 9:00am, Eleme

Mamed's Ocean Pointe

Sailfish Lounge 71 Ocean Avenue Palm Beach Shores, Florida 33404

Agenda

• Call Onder

Establishment of Quorum and Roll Call

Appointment of Maming Chairperson

Appointment of Recording Secretary

Proof of Notice of Finance Commitee Meeting

Approval of Agenda

Approval of Finance Commitee Meeting Minutes May 17, 2002 Finance C Mos

September 2, 2022 Finance Ca tee Meeting Minun September 20, 2022 Finance Co Meeting Minutes

October 6, 2022 Finance Co mie Mriting Minutes

Investment Upda

Review of 2022 Financials and Forecast

Operating Fund Reserve Fund

Property Tax Fed Maintenance Fee Accounts Receivable

Reserve Fund Projects Review

Review of Proposed 2023 Emed Opering Badges

New Business

Establishes of 2023 Finance Come Meeting Dates


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## billymach4 (Dec 8, 2022)




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## billymach4 (Dec 8, 2022)




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## billymach4 (Dec 8, 2022)

Let me try from my laptop I hate working straight out of my phone


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## dioxide45 (Dec 8, 2022)

THe final budget was already provided in post #55.


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## billymach4 (Dec 11, 2022)

OK I recall that there used to be a yahoo group 
Marriott's Ocean Pointe Owners and Friends​I see that there is an ongoing thread here that is a continuation of that group.
The Board President was active in that group. Not sure if the board president is a member of TUG
Respecting privacy but it is public knowledge BOD names.


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## billymach4 (Dec 11, 2022)




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## billymach4 (Dec 11, 2022)

billymach4 said:


> View attachment 70041




mvciopbd@vacationclub.com


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## billymach4 (Dec 11, 2022)

Most of the current experts here already are aware. All board documents for the past 2 years are available on owners association page.


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## billymach4 (Dec 11, 2022)

Superchief said:


> It will be interesting to see whether the 10% management fee was applied to  this $500.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 11, 2022)

billymach4 said:


> View attachment 70044
> 
> 
> View attachment 70043


Oh how generous of Marriott Vacations. The fact is, they are still coming out ahead. The total cost per the letter for Kingfish is $4,460,731. They are only special assessing $3,481,533. The $1,000,000 difference looks like it will come out of the much higher Replacement Reserve. That extra million gives MVC an extra $100,000 in management fee revenue. However, the Reserve Fee is $3,292,875 higher in 2023 than it was in 2022. So they are earning about $2.2 million more above and beyond the million already. Don't worry about MVC, they made sure they still got paid. What a racket.

Owners are owed a very clear explanation on why the very steep increase in the Reserve Fee. I don't think that was covered in the letter.


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## billymach4 (Dec 11, 2022)

What bothers me now about this issue... This year Kingfish building. There are 4 other buildings in the resort. How do we know the condition of the other roof's?


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## dioxide45 (Dec 11, 2022)

billymach4 said:


> What bothers me now about this issue... This year Kingfish building. There are 4 other buildings in the resort. How do we know the condition of the other roof's?


That is a good question and is that the reason for the unusually bloated Reserve Fee? I suspect this issue with Kinfish was discovered after the Surfside Condo collapse...


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## Superchief (Dec 12, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Oh how generous of Marriott Vacations. The fact is, they are still coming out ahead. The total cost per the letter for Kingfish is $4,460,731. They are only special assessing $3,481,533. The $1,000,000 difference looks like it will come out of the much higher Replacement Reserve. That extra million gives MVC an extra $100,000 in management fee revenue. However, the Reserve Fee is $3,292,875 higher in 2023 than it was in 2022. So they are earning about $2.2 million more above and beyond the million already. Don't worry about MVC, they made sure they still got paid. What a racket.
> 
> Owners are owned a very clear explanation on why the very steep increase in the Reserve Fee. I don't think that was covered in the letter.


I also highly doubt that the reserves will be decreased next year back to the 'normal' level, so they will continue to collect the management fee on the future higher reserve payments. I can't recall reserve payments actually going down for any of my timeshares in the past few years unless they were reduced due to large increases in operating fees.


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## DIB (Dec 12, 2022)

Just wait til the new FL law mandating fully funding of reserves kicks in:  applies to almost all Condos, timeshares, etc. in the State. All our annual reserve fees will skyrocket. 



			https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022D/4D/BillText/er/HTML
		










						New building safety law means big changes for condo associations
					

One structural engineer calls SB 4-D "a very strong start."




					www.mynews13.com


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## wuv pooh (Dec 12, 2022)

billymach4 said:


> What bothers me now about this issue... This year Kingfish building. There are 4 other buildings in the resort. How do we know the condition of the other roof's?


If there are 5 total buildings and the first costs over $4M then it looks like they are under reserved.

The documents show a roof replacement estimate of $10M, of which they currently have a balance of negative $1M.  The increase in reserves of 35% is $3.3M which allows them to replace the negative balance and add $2M to the reserve since presumably they now know that roofs cost more money.  They need to double the replacement estimate from $2M per roof to $4M per roof, so could accomplish that over a few years.  If you are lucky then this specific roof is unusually expensive and after refilling the reserve and adding another $2M they are where they should be.

I believe not collecting a management fee for the repairs is a good gesture and maybe a tacit acknowledgement that the original design was flawed.  You would not expect to get this concession from a commercial builder a decade+ down the line.  It is not a catastrophic failure, so no insurance payout either.

Not sure who is responsible for setting the replacement reserves, the BOD or Marriott, but clearly they are off by a bit.  Hopefully it is a short term issue caused by Ian sucking up roof repair contractors and not a longer term issue that requires keeping the reserves at an elevated rate.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 12, 2022)

While the issue may exist at other buildings, the letter seemed to downplay that by indicating the issue was because of how Kingfish is uniquely positioned to face south and east and thus was the one needing repair and remediation. I didn't get the impression from the letter that the other buildings needed the same action taken.


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## Bunk (Dec 12, 2022)

"Dear Marriott’s Ocean Pointe Owner, The accompanying 2023 Operating Budget includes a line item for a “Special Reserve Fee” in the amount of $3,481,533. This is because, in November 2021, the Resort site team discovered that there were sections of the east elevation soffits of the Kingfish Building that were cracking and breaking free from the building. These are the building’s areas that are most exposed to the ocean and frequent storms, as this building is uniquely positioned adjacent to the Inlet, thereby sustaining direct wind/saltwater impact from the South and East.
*After engaging a 3rd party engineering firm to review the issue, it was determined that the best solution to address the deficiencies was to replace the tile roof system, including the repair and replacement of roof trusses and supports. Additionally, a replacement was recommended for those soffits in their entirety, as well as to apply a coating to protect against future cracking and/or breaking caused by rust or corrosion.*



Those of you who own at Ocean Pointe, you might consider requesting a copy of the engineer's report addressing these issues.


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## billymach4 (Dec 12, 2022)

Bunk said:


> "Dear Marriott’s Ocean Pointe Owner, The accompanying 2023 Operating Budget includes a line item for a “Special Reserve Fee” in the amount of $3,481,533. This is because, in November 2021, the Resort site team discovered that there were sections of the east elevation soffits of the Kingfish Building that were cracking and breaking free from the building. These are the building’s areas that are most exposed to the ocean and frequent storms, as this building is uniquely positioned adjacent to the Inlet, thereby sustaining direct wind/saltwater impact from the South and East.
> *After engaging a 3rd party engineering firm to review the issue, it was determined that the best solution to address the deficiencies was to replace the tile roof system, including the repair and replacement of roof trusses and supports. Additionally, a replacement was recommended for those soffits in their entirety, as well as to apply a coating to protect against future cracking and/or breaking caused by rust or corrosion.*
> 
> 
> ...


I will add that to my letter to the Manager and BOD.

Good Point.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Dec 12, 2022)

A little history on the Ocean Pointe construction for all TUG readers interested in this very expensive dilemma;

There are FIVE existing buildings at Ocean Pointe:   Sailfish, Dolphin, Cobia, Pompano, and Kingfish.  Four of the buildings are of the same (or very similar) design and have interior hallways.  The Kingfish Building is the last and only building which differs from the other four in that it has exterior hallways.

The Kingfish Building is also the only building which not only fronts the beach but also fronts the adjoining inlet.  

I believe the mega builder Dan Catalfumo erected all of these buildings.  Unfortunately Mr. Catalfumo got caught up with the economic downslide in 2008 and by 2011 had to declare Bankruptcy.  Mr. Catalfumo was the go to guy for a lot of properties in South Florida and in 2005 was the biggest builder in the State.

Mr. Catalfumo is now back in the building business, but only a shadow of his former self.   I have no idea if he could still be held liable for the current Kingfish construction issues but I kind of think that the Bankruptcy procedure in 2011 would insulate him from any liabilities........





.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 12, 2022)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> A little history on the Ocean Pointe construction for all TUG readers interested in this very expensive dilemma;
> 
> There are FIVE existing buildings at Ocean Pointe:   Sailfish, Dolphin, Cobia, Pompano, and Kingfish.  Four of the buildings are of the same (or very similar) design and have interior hallways.  The Kingfish Building is the last and only building which differs from the other four in that it has exterior hallways.
> 
> ...



You would have to be able to prove he did something wrong, which doesn’t appear to be the case. Buildings take a beating with the saltwater and storms. It’s possible the building me all requirements and he did nothing wrong. My roof was put on correctly, but several storms with high winds and an I’ll timed hail storm did it in and we had to replace it.


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## pedro47 (Dec 13, 2022)

DIB said:


> Just wait til the new FL law mandating fully funding of reserves kicks in:  applies to almost all Condos, timeshares, etc. in the State. All our annual reserve fees will skyrocket.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The passing of this new Florida mandate IMHO, is going to force all Florida hotels, condos and timeshare to increase their reserve funds.


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## dougp26364 (Dec 13, 2022)

pedro47 said:


> The passing of this new Florida mandate IMHO, is going to force all Florida hotels, condos and timeshare to increase their reserve funds.


This may not be a bad thing. Years ago I wanted more information on fully funding the reserves, what it meant, how it worked, but I got nothing.
Fully funding apparently requires more money be held in reserves for instances such as we’re seeing at present. The main thing I’d like to know, is what does fully funded actually mean? Does it require the bank account for the reserves be maintained at a specific level? If so, does that mean that for one year we get whacked with a higher than normal MF bill to make up for all the under funded years, then return to a lower amount, so long as the reserve fund banked money remains at the amount to be fully funded?
What owners get for an answer is often something I’d expect for people with a third grade education. It amounts to, one price is this, the other is that. No explanation of what fully funded really means or how it might protect owners. Of course everyone will vote for the lower cash outlay, which is fine. However that lower outlay often comes with a risk. We seem to be seeing that risk right now with the roof repairs at Kingfish.
So we’re back to efficient and effective communication. Neither of which I’ve seen from Ocean Pointe or MVC in general. I’m offended when I feel that I’m being treated as if I’m to stupid to understand the details, and I should just hand over my money and trust things are being done correctly.
It’s possible I’d be willing to accept the risk of underfunding cash reserves, but 23 years of timeshare ownership has shown me that comes with a pretty substantial risk. Ask the owners at Pointe of Poipu how they felt about their water intrusion special assessment a few years ago.


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## SueDonJ (Dec 13, 2022)

dougp26364 said:


> This may not be a bad thing. Years ago I wanted more information on fully funding the reserves, what it meant, how it worked, but I got nothing.
> Fully funding apparently requires more money be held in reserves for instances such as we’re seeing at present. The main thing I’d like to know, is what does fully funded actually mean? Does it require the bank account for the reserves be maintained at a specific level? If so, does that mean that for one year we get whacked with a higher than normal MF bill to make up for all the under funded years, then return to a lower amount, so long as the reserve fund banked money remains at the amount to be fully funded?
> What owners get for an answer is often something I’d expect for people with a third grade education. It amounts to, one price is this, the other is that. No explanation of what fully funded really means or how it might protect owners. Of course everyone will vote for the lower cash outlay, which is fine. However that lower outlay often comes with a risk. We seem to be seeing that risk right now with the roof repairs at Kingfish.
> So we’re back to efficient and effective communication. Neither of which I’ve seen from Ocean Pointe or MVC in general. I’m offended when I feel that I’m being treated as if I’m to stupid to understand the details, and I should just hand over my money and trust things are being done correctly.
> It’s possible I’d be willing to accept the risk of underfunding cash reserves, but 23 years of timeshare ownership has shown me that comes with a pretty substantial risk. Ask the owners at Pointe of Poipu how they felt about their water intrusion special assessment a few years ago.


I wouldn't think it a bad thing either, if the Reserves are increased from this point going forward at any of the resorts which are subject to this new, mandated legislation to cover whatever anticipated costs are required to be covered in advance. I would expect, actually, that any related increase would not at all be a one-time assessment but rather will be the new norm for Florida resorts, and would be included in the usual Reserves line item in the budget.

I do think it's a bad thing for owners to vote to waive "fully-funded reserves" as they've been legislated in South Carolina and Florida (prior to this new legislation), because as defined they cover much more than the routine upkeep and refurb needs. I much prefer that repairs following one-off events that cause catastrophic damages be funded by special assessments as needed, because I don't want Marriott to be sitting on a giant pile of money that they may never need to spend. (I'd classify the roof issue at the OP Kingfish building to be a one-off event with damages outside the normal scope of routine, planned repair.)


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## l0410z (Dec 13, 2022)

In 2016, we had an special assessment at the Monarch of $600.  Instead of a one time assessment, it was added as 150 per year for 4 years.  It was not added as a SA but added to the   reserve fee of our MF.  In 2016, the reserve fund went from about 307 to about 458 (about 45% increase). This became the low point of our reserve fee meaning the 150 was never taken back out after the 4 years.  I questioned this and never got an answer.   Being on an HOA is a tough thankless job.  I thank the people who do it because I won't.  Effective communications is a must and the HOA at the Monarch failed in this area.

I bring this up because in my opinion, anything added to the reserve fee will not be going away.  Try and get a definitive answer to if any increase  to the reserve fund is permanent


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## Superchief (Dec 13, 2022)

Owners need to also be concerned about how money is spent from the reserves fund. When I read the minutes from the board meetings for the resorts I own, I've seen several expenditures approved from the reserves that are pet projects for the GM's, and these shouldn't be funded from the reserve funds. The GM currently at Ocean Pointe wasted reserve money on several 'improvements' when he was GM at Oceana Palms. He came from the Marriott Hotel side of the business and was more concerned about resort ratings than about owners' wishes.  Not only do these expenditures deplete the reserve funds, but they often add operating costs and the 10% fees to MVC.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 13, 2022)

Superchief said:


> Owners need to also be concerned about how money is spent from the reserves fund. When I read the minutes from the board meetings for the resorts I own, I've seen several expenditures approved from the reserves that are pet projects for the GM's, and these shouldn't be funded from the reserve funds. The GM currently at Ocean Pointe wasted reserve money on several 'improvements' when he was GM at Oceana Palms. He came from the Marriott Hotel side of the business and was more concerned about resort ratings than about owners' wishes.  Not only do these expenditures deplete the reserve funds, but they often add operating costs and the 10% fees to MVC.


What kind of projects were approved at Ocean Pointe? I know a number of pet projects were done at Grande Vista that cost some considerable money and I agree that much of it is to prop up resort ratings on the surveys they send out after a stay. Unfortunately those also go out to just hotel guests (not timeshare owners) who have a different expectation.


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## aka Julie (Dec 14, 2022)

Who is the target audience for stay surveys. We have owned for over 20 years and have never received a survey after our stays, either owned weeks or II exchange


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## dioxide45 (Dec 14, 2022)

aka Julie said:


> Who is the target audience for stay surveys. We have owned for over 20 years and have never received a survey after our stays, either owned weeks or II exchange


We always receive mid stay surveys. I think they are just one or two questions with a comment box. We don't get post travel surveys, but I suspect they go out to both owners and guests that book through Marriott.com and other booking sites. They are probably a small percentage of overall guests.


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## Superchief (Dec 14, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> What kind of projects were approved at Ocean Pointe? I know a number of pet projects were done at Grande Vista that cost some considerable money and I agree that much of it is to prop up resort ratings on the surveys they send out after a stay. Unfortunately those also go out to just hotel guests (not timeshare owners) who have a different expectation.


I'll have to look through my old annual reports to see some of the specifics. I recall his first owner's meeting in which he bragged about all of the new things that were being added and that capital spending more than doubled when he took over. The MF's went up 7% in 2020, which was only surpassed by the 7.6% increase for Ocean Pointe (my other five resorts increased less than 4% that year, and points were up 4%).  The % increase in MF's for Ocean Pointe and Oceana Palms have exceeded the annual % increase in VC Points MF's every year beginning in 2019.  Oceana Palms is the only MVC resort that I own that doesn't show the year to year comparison for the expenses broken out by cost per week. This makes it very difficult to identify the expense items that are driving the increases. 

I am very concerned when the rate of increase for individual resort MF's is higher than the increase for the Trust Points because that indicates that resort management isn't keeping owners best interests in mind.


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## Superchief (Dec 14, 2022)

aka Julie said:


> Who is the target audience for stay surveys. We have owned for over 20 years and have never received a survey after our stays, either owned weeks or II exchange


Now that you mention it, I haven't received any for the past few years. Previously I had received them after most stays. The management team would also share their resort ratings during owner meetings, and it was my understanding that the Management bonus was impacted by the ratings.


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## Steve Fatula (Dec 14, 2022)

Superchief said:


> Oceana Palms is the only MVC resort that I own that doesn't show the year to year comparison for the expenses broken out by cost per week. This makes it very difficult to identify the expense items that are driving the increases.


If it's not broken out, I would not like it either. It should be. Should be required. I don't own there, but, if I understand you correctly, looks like it would be trivial to hide things.


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## billymach4 (Dec 16, 2022)

I have inserted a copy of my letter to the Ocean Pointe Manager and Board. 
The answers are included in *BOLD*.


Marriott Ocean Pointe Board and General Manager,

First and foremost I want to thank you for your service to Marriott Ocean Pointe. As a past Board Member of a Cooperative Association in Queens NY I understand the fiduciary duty you have to our property.
Additionally I am sure you are receiving many inquiries related to the 2023 maintenance increase and the Special Assessment fees. 

I would like to ask as an individual owner and a member of the Timeshare User Group  TUG the following questions.

1) Are the following assessments (Reserve Fee, Special Reserve Fee) going to be a one-time fee?  *Yes – it is a one-time increase for 2023, however the management team and board of directors anticipate keeping a slightly higher level in our reserve fund going forward. *

2)  Why was the disclosure of the information regarding Kingfish and the SA left until the 2023 budget sent out?  *The information was sent out with the 2023 budget in an effort to distribute one mailing/notice to owners.  While the Kingfish roof issue was discovered late in the year 2021, there was a lot of research involved in 2022 and it took time to determine a recommended path forward that the management team could propose to the Board of Directors.  Shortly before the annual meeting in November, the strategy was approved, and the management team and the Board of Directors agreed that the best approach was to send the information all at once.  It is more economical for the Association to send out one budget/MF statement along with the annual budget information. *

3) Why is there a $3 million dollar + increase in the Reserve Fee and what it the intended use of those funds?  *The reserve fee contribution covers all of the projects for completion in 2023, and the remaining balance exists because we accrue over time, enough funds to cover future refurbishment/projects.  The management team and the board of directors have gradually increased this figure over the years in order to maintain a larger minimum reserve fund balance.  In addition, The State of Florida has passed legislation that will require all associations to fully fund their respective reserves by December 31st, 2024.  This strategy will hopefully aid in avoiding a very large increase when we are required to fully fund our reserves.*

4) May I and the owners of Ocean Pointe view the engineers report regarding the roof replacement? I am very concerned that this work entails replacing  core structural items such as "Trusses"? *Under State of Florida Statute, any owner can request a copy of association’s records and the management team is required to produce a copy.  Please send me your specific request in writing and I will provide you with the requested material within a reasonable timeframe.  Please indicate if you are willing to accept this information electronically.   *

5) Are the other 4 buildings at Ocean Pointe going to require similar roof replacement in the near future?  *The management team inspected the roofs in all the other phases and there is no indication that an accelerated roof replacement is needed in any of the other phases at this time.  *

6) May I also suggest that at this point in time when Ocean Pointe owners are being asked to shoulder a much larger financial burden, it is imperative that more frequent detailed communication be shared.  *We assure you we distributed this information to our owners as efficiently and timely as possible.  As indicated prior in answer to question #2, the final decision on strategy was made shortly before the annual meeting in November.  Management and board of directors spend countless hours reviewing every aspect of the proposed 2023 budget as we are collectively managing the Association’s assets and are providing appropriate owner and guests experiences in order to maintain the value of your ownership. *


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## dougp26364 (Dec 17, 2022)

I don’t know how much it costs to send and email, but I can’t imagine the cost is significant.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. You better like where you own because, at the end of the day, you’re just along for the ride. Owners only control is whether or not the pay the annual MF’s. Mother Marriott calls the tune and owners have to dance. The reality is it’s not any different in any other system.


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## Superchief (Dec 17, 2022)

billymach4 said:


> 3) Why is there a $3 million dollar + increase in the Reserve Fee and what it the intended use of those funds?  *The reserve fee contribution covers all of the projects for completion in 2023, and the remaining balance exists because we accrue over time, enough funds to cover future refurbishment/projects.  The management team and the board of directors have gradually increased this figure over the years in order to maintain a larger minimum reserve fund balance.  In addition, The State of Florida has passed legislation that will require all associations to fully fund their respective reserves by December 31st, 2024.  This strategy will hopefully aid in avoiding a very large increase when we are required to fully fund our reserves.*


Thank you very much for taking valuable time to prepare and send this letter to the GM/Board. As an owner, I really appreciate your efforts. Did the reply come from the GM, Andy Miller?

My biggest concern is his response regarding the reserves, since it appears he is inferring that this will continue to increase even though the roof replacement was a major cause of the spending. The reserves annual cost for Ocean Pointe was already higher than any of my other five MVC resorts prior to the 2023 increase, so I wonder where the money is going. As I mentioned previously, spending increased substantially under his management when he was at Oceana Palms. I'm not at all encouraged by his response because it doesn't appear to show any concern about the impact of these actions on the owners, nor do they really care about keeping us informed. They could have easily posted an emergency correspondence in the owners section of the website at no cost.

I also question whether the trust will pay their fair share of these expenses for the weeks owned by the trust. The trust MF's increased 9.9% this year, which is lower than most of my increases for my owned weeks.


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## DanCali (Dec 17, 2022)

Superchief said:


> Thank you very much for taking valuable time to prepare and send this letter to the GM/Board. As an owner, I really appreciate your efforts. Did the reply come from the GM, Andy Miller?
> 
> My biggest concern is his response regarding the reserves, since it appears he is inferring that this will continue to increase even though the roof replacement was a major cause of the spending. The reserves annual cost for Ocean Pointe was already higher than any of my other five MVC resorts prior to the 2023 increase, so I wonder where the money is going. As I mentioned previously, spending increased substantially under his management when he was at Oceana Palms. I'm not at all encouraged by his response because it doesn't appear to show any concern about the impact of these actions on the owners, nor do they really care about keeping us informed. They could have easily posted an emergency correspondence in the owners section of the website at no cost.
> 
> I also wonder question whether the trust will pay their fair share of these expenses for the weeks owned by the trust. The trust MF's increased 9.9% this year, which is lower than most of my increases for my owned weeks.




We are not owners at Ocean Pointe but do go there a few times a year for shorter stays on points because it's a great resort that is less than a hour drive away from where we live.

Those are valid questions. We live in FL in a community with about 500 homes and an HOA. There is a management company, landscaping, irrigation, powerwashing, painting, community pools etc. We're not that far inland, so we also get some meaningful wind damage on occasion that we have to deal with. In the 10+ years we've lived here, our HOA bill has increased only once or twice at most, and the increase has been less than 25% over 10 years. Obviously, it's not an "apples to apples" comparison - a resort has a lot more expenses, and in a residential community many maintenance and repair costs are absorbed by the homeowners. But that should mostly all be reflected at a higher annual level of expenses per unit (after all, MFs of $2000/week/year are over $100K/condo/year after multiplying by 52, compared with my $5000/year HOA fees for a house) and not necessarily with much higher annual percentage increases. So, it's definitely legitimate to ask "where is all that money going" because it's not on wage increases.


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## billymach4 (Dec 17, 2022)

Superchief said:


> Thank you very much for taking valuable time to prepare and send this letter to the GM/Board. As an owner, I really appreciate your efforts. Did the reply come from the GM, Andy Miller?
> 
> My biggest concern is his response regarding the reserves, since it appears he is inferring that this will continue to increase even though the roof replacement was a major cause of the spending. The reserves annual cost for Ocean Pointe was already higher than any of my other five MVC resorts prior to the 2023 increase, so I wonder where the money is going. As I mentioned previously, spending increased substantially under his management when he was at Oceana Palms. I'm not at all encouraged by his response because it doesn't appear to show any concern about the impact of these actions on the owners, nor do they really care about keeping us informed. They could have easily posted an emergency correspondence in the owners section of the website at no cost.
> 
> I also question whether the trust will pay their fair share of these expenses for the weeks owned by the trust. The trust MF's increased 9.9% this year, which is lower than most of my increases for my owned weeks.


Yes this reply did come directly from GM Andy Miller. As far as whether the trust paying their fair share? That is a good question for all Marriott resorts. Maybe someone else here on TUG can help us understand the answer to that question.


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## sponger76 (Dec 17, 2022)

billymach4 said:


> Yes this reply did come directly from GM Andy Miller. As far as whether the trust paying their fair share? That is a good question for all Marriott resorts. Maybe someone else here on TUG can help us understand the answer to that question.


From what I understand, the trust pays each resort the same MFs that any normal owner would for each week in the trust. The reason the overall trust MF % increase might be less than that at a specific resort is because the trust takes all of the MFs for all resort weeks it owns and divides it by the number of points the trust represents, and then charges that to each owner on a per-point basis. Because it is averaged out, the MF increase for trust point owners will be lower than some resorts with higher than average increases, and higher than other resorts with lower than average increases.


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## Superchief (Dec 17, 2022)

sponger76 said:


> From what I understand, the trust pays each resort the same MFs that any normal owner would for each week in the trust. The reason the overall trust MF % increase might be less than that at a specific resort is because the trust takes all of the MFs for all resort weeks it owns and divides it by the number of points the trust represents, and then charges that to each owner on a per-point basis. Because it is averaged out, the MF increase for trust point owners will be lower than some resorts with higher than average increases, and higher than other resorts with lower than average increases.


I understand this concept, but all of the resorts I own had larger increases than the trust increase( 9.9%). For the trust to have only a 9.9% increase while Ocean Pointe had a 25% increase, there would have to be a lot of resorts that had lower increases.


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## Fasttr (Dec 17, 2022)

Superchief said:


> I understand this concept, but all of the resorts I own had larger increases than the trust increase( 9.9%). For the trust to have only a 9.9% increase while Ocean Pointe had a 25% increase, there would have to be a lot of resorts that had lower increases.


The Trust MF’s come out before most of the resorts finalize theirs.   I’m sure they are estimated in one year, and trued up retroactively the following year, then estimated for the next year, etc.


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## sponger76 (Dec 17, 2022)

Superchief said:


> I understand this concept, but all of the resorts I own had larger increases than the trust increase( 9.9%). For the trust to have only a 9.9% increase while Ocean Pointe had a 25% increase, there would have to be a lot of resorts that had lower increases.


Keep in mind that 25% increase is by far an outlier compared to other resorts, and is only one out of a great many. You need to look at how many Ocean Pointe weeks are owned by the trust compared to weeks from all the other lower increase resorts. And as @Fasttr noted, trust MFs are estimated and come out before most of the resorts actual MFs. If they underestimated, they'll almost certainly make up for it in the next year's trust MFs.


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## PattiH (Dec 29, 2022)

Vacation fun said:


> Ok …I get it on everyone being upset … but it is my understanding that due to the roof replacement needed in Kingfish … it has resulted in a ONE time assessment fee of about $500 per unit for this budget . I know that is high and not want we want but to not do the replacement could result in water damages and water intrusion … so it is better to resolve it.


My one time assessment was $909.00 for the “special reserve fee”.  Possibly due to me owning the Fourth of July week.  How lucky am I??????


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