# I worked for one of the major xchange companies...



## Change the X-change (Jun 23, 2006)

and now that my non compete clause is over I was thinking of being the competition for them. I have fresh new I deas for example: $50 exchanges, if you own an a you can go to an e resort if that's what you want, not anual but monthly membership fees, and yes you can exchange beyond your expiration date as long as you are active at the time of xchange, these just to mention a few...please provide feedback on this idea positive or negative. Thanks


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## PerryM (Jun 23, 2006)

*Quriky; but here goes*

X,

Anyone can say anything on chat rooms without proof.  Starting a billion dollar exchange company on a chat room sounds to me quirky to say the least.  However, I’d like to get some of your ideas.

Points or weeks?  That should start this discussion.  Which will your company endorse and why?  I’d like specific examples and exact reasons.

Thanks,


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## Change the X-change (Jun 24, 2006)

Sorry I failed to give my name. It is Mike and between my wife and I we have 17 years of II experience...I know what I'm talking about.

As far as trying to build an empire in a message board, I agree with however, let me give you some history. II started with a handful of people taking weeks over manual phones...a good friend of TUG and former II employee Craig Urbine was one of the II phone reps. in the begining.

I am just getting some feedback to see what everyone thinks...It will not be an overnight project and God knows I don't have the money to start a full blown call center...I can make the costs lower because the member would do part of the work...looking for the week, booking etc. The difference is I would not hide inventory from my members, I would let you freely do with your week as you want, we forget that it is yours no?

I would do weeks, not points, just easier to exchange in my opinion.

As far as billions of dollars, I know the timeshare exchange companies make billions of dollars, the overhead in comparison is small.

Please continue to send me comments and feedback, I appreciate all the info I can get.


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## JBRES1 (Jun 24, 2006)

Don't take this the wrong way, but please proof read before you post.  
Peoples first impressions are tough to change.  You could do as I do at work, put it on paper and have somebody put the ideas into a form others can read.

As for the exchange company, good idea if you can get it off the ground.
How will you work the exchanges, and who will you get the seed weeks to start the exchange process from?.
Jim Breslin


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## PerryM (Jun 24, 2006)

*Sounds like same old same old to me*

Weeks are certainly easy to implement however, we get back to all the secret formulas and wishy-washy trading “rules” that are simply not enforced.  Who needs another RCI and II?

Would you spawn a carbon copy of RCI and II or can a week system be forthcoming and open -I personally don't think so.  This would entail telling everyone what their week is worth.  How would you do that?  I just don’t see a barter system without all the secrets that hold the thing together.

I personally rent my units now and rent other owners units – all in the open and in the free market.  I trade only when an outrageous exchange in my favor occurs.

How will this be any different than RCI and II?  So far it sounds like the same old same old – what’s different?

Are we at the sunset of the exchange company?  I don’t think we need another traditional exchange company but something radically different – sounds like you just want a copy of II?

Tell me how I'm wrong.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 24, 2006)

Who would object to a $50 exchange program unless it didn't have many deposits and nobody trusted it?

It might help if you explained how you would be getting inventory and what type of features you would offer in your exchange company.

Other than price, what will give you a competitive advantage?

Let's say I am a customer, please tell me how you will be in business in 12-24 months so I am willing to make a deposit.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 24, 2006)

There are lots of alternative exchange companies out there already.  What would set yours apart from the others?  I have not ever used the alternatives and would have a difficult time trusting anything new.  

Actually, I have a question for you:  We own at Twin Rivers and have been told that we have an exclusive contract with II and that we cannot use any other exchange companies.  I called Janie Beall and she said the same thing, that we cannot use an alternate.  What is the truth of that?  My weeks are deeded and I have owned Twin Rivers for 25 years.

I would appreciate your honest answer.


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## CraigU (Jun 24, 2006)

Change the X-change said:
			
		

> II started with a handful of people taking weeks over manual phones...a good friend of TUG and former II employee Craig Urbine was one of the II phone reps. in the begining.
> 
> As far as billions of dollars, I know the timeshare exchange companies make billions of dollars, the overhead in comparison is small.


Many of the processes, in the early years at I.I., were indeed manual. In fact, I handled the trial program for "deposit first" which included filing the required signed documents in shoe boxes (they were the perfect size for the size of the documents). However, there were systems to support data retention.

It should also be noted that exchange company revenues, individually, are not in the billions of dollars. 

The most difficult part of the start up phase would be attaining enough weeks to have a viable program. This is where creative thinking would be required. I believe the systems to support a project of this type could be developed for a reasonable amount of money.


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## CraigU (Jun 24, 2006)

*Re: Sounds like same old same old to me*



			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> Weeks are certainly easy to implement however, we get back to all the secret formulas and wishy-washy trading “rules” that are simply not enforced.  Who needs another RCI and II?



Transparency could be delivered quite easily. The question is whether people would like the reality of their weeks value. 

In my opinion, the resort developers are the reason you don't get full disclosure from the major exchange companies. It would be difficult for their sales staff to sell "off season" weeks or over supplied areas if it was clearly disclosed.


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## CraigU (Jun 24, 2006)

rickandcindy23 said:
			
		

> There are lots of alternative exchange companies out there already.  What would set yours apart from the others?  I have not ever used the alternatives and would have a difficult time trusting anything new.



A partnership with TUG would provide instant credibility...

Just a thought!


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## CraigU (Jun 24, 2006)

rickandcindy23 said:
			
		

> Actually, I have a question for you:  We own at Twin Rivers and have been told that we have an exclusive contract with II and that we cannot use any other exchange companies.  I called Janie Beall and she said the same thing, that we cannot use an alternate.  What is the truth of that?  My weeks are deeded and I have owned Twin Rivers for 25 years.



Exclusive contracts in this context only dictate the exchange company that is affiliated with the developer. Individual resort owners cannot be bound by an agreement between third parties.


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## PerryM (Jun 24, 2006)

*Cut the fat*

Whatever a new company would do there should be one goal in mind: *No Humans!*  All computers.  It drives me nuts when II and RCI call up to “chew the fat”, and fat is what needs to be cut out.

100% internet driven.


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## Patricia (Jun 24, 2006)

a good friend of TUG and former II employee Craig Urbine was one of the II phone reps. in the begining

Hello and welcome to Tug:

Certainly if you are a friend of Craig Urbine that will give you 100% credibility
with most Tuggers....Why?  Most of us here on Tug have much respect and
admiration for Craig because he was Interval's representative here on Tug
for several years (until he left Interval to pursue his own business ventures)

There was a discussion earlier here on Tug about Craig's List also starting up a Timeshare exchange...you may want to do a search
for that info (it was fairly recent)



I do think many of us would be interested in a $50 exchange fee.
Perhaps that would be the "hook" that would get many of us interested.

Good luck with your venture

Regards,
Patricia  
Tugger since 1999


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## geekette (Jun 24, 2006)

I'd like to know how my a can trade for an e.

$50 fee sounds great.

Monthly membership could be great, or a pain.  In what range are you thinking??  

Tell me more, I can overlook typos.  Fresh new ideas are always welcome.


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## CraigU (Jun 24, 2006)

Patricia:

He didn't state he was a friend of mine, he said I was a friend of TUG.

That would be an accurate statement.

BTW, thank you for your kind words.



			
				Patricia said:
			
		

> a good friend of TUG and former II employee Craig Urbine was one of the II phone reps. in the begining
> 
> Hello and welcome to Tug:
> 
> ...


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## boyblue (Jun 24, 2006)

Boy this is fun!

X, I guess it must be from your years at II but you are already disguising/hiding stuff.  

With the a's & e's you have already created a points system.


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 24, 2006)

*Low-Cost Timeshare Exchange System.*

Hey, maybe Mr. _Change The X-Change_ is just the guy who should go talk to the folks at Craig's List about setting up a new low-cost, user-friendly timeshare exchange system.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## funtime (Jun 24, 2006)

I am too busy to track down all my annual dues, monthly dues would send me over a cliff!  I think that HTSE has a good exchange system right now and it is transparent.  All available weeks are on the web for all to see.  Building up your base of weeks would be important.  I would imagine you would have to give free trades or bonus weeks to the first 1,000 or so and also start working relationships with some larger resorts.  I think that there is a good market out there for quality resorts in the shoulder season especially for  empty nesters.  Standards are important so that you do not get a lot of blue weeks dumped into your new system.


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## Dani (Jun 24, 2006)

CraigU said:
			
		

> The most difficult part of the start up phase would be attaining enough weeks to have a viable program. This is where creative thinking would be required. I believe the systems to support a project of this type could be developed for a reasonable amount of money.



  I think that this is exactly right and the reason why so many other start-up exchange companies other than RCI and II are not a viable option for me.   They simply do not have the inventory in the places I want to go and/or I am not confident that they are able to provide me with the exchanges I desire on a consistent basis and with enough lead time.  That being said, everyone and every business must start somewhere.

   Also, goodwill and customer service counts for a lot and depending upon whom is running any such new exchange company...hint...hint..Craig ,  I'm betting that people would be willing to give it a shot and make deposits there.   It has been mentioned here on TUG many, many times over the years about the possiblity of TUG and or TUGGERS starting an exchange company.  I think that it is very possible.

    By now there must be many individuals whose non-compete clauses have run who could put together a credible venture.   As for the $50 fee, from a consumers perspective, of course this would be great.  However, from a business perspective, I would think that more would have to be known about your costs including advertisment, your inventory of units, number of members, market, staff, on-line capabilities etc, in order to make a determiniation as to whether this would be cost effective.


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## CraigU (Jun 24, 2006)

Dani said:
			
		

> As for the $50 fee, from a consumers perspective, of course this would be great.



A lower fee structure is certainly possible especially if the venture were web based. The collateral materials (i.e. resort directory, membership kits/cards etc.) are the biggest cost associated with membership.


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## Liz Wolf-Spada (Jun 24, 2006)

I agree with the post about not doing monthly fees, too crazy to keep track of and I think when people like a company they will pay a discounted rate for more than one year at a time. I use SFX a lot, but I miss not being able to search myself, more for fun than anything else. I hesitate to give RCI weeks due to people complaining about the rentals, last calls are expensive and now they want to raise exchange fees, but other than DAE, I don't know who takes my S A week. I am thinking of trying II, but that adds the additional cost of another company and I'll wait for their offers in the mail. So, I guess my question is how will this be different, better etc.
Liz


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## PerryM (Jun 24, 2006)

*My dream exchange company*

Here’s my thoughts on the ultimate exchange company:

It should be Points driven based on rental rates.

When someone deposits a week, a rack rental rate would be assigned to the week and that money would be deposited into an account.  (Company does this)

e.g. I own 3 Silver Marriotts that each rent by Marriott on the reservation days for $125 per day.  7 * $125 = $875 * 3 units = $2,625 in my account.

I see a January week in Park City to ski for $2,000 and I make the exchange and have $625 in my account.

No mumbo-jumbo, the exchange company has experts who determine the rental rate and the person depositing the unit would be allowed to challenge the rate, for a fee ($50 in the account removed).

It’s all based on reality and no hidden secrets or complicated Points calendars to cook up – just rental rates.

A published sliding schedule would diminish the rental rack rate as the check-in day arrives.  E.g. 12 months out the full rack rate, 6 months out 50% rack rate, 30 days out 10% rack rate.  Something that would be published and known to all members.

NO units could be turned in for airline tickets so NO units will ever be rented to the public.

If you were short you could pay the difference in cash.  E.g. I have $625 left in my account and I see an exchange for $1000 I could pay $375 and I get the exchange.


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## timeos2 (Jun 24, 2006)

Hey Perry nice job. 

At first I was ready to moan about a weeks based exchange but you covered that immediately with points/dollar based trades.  You also cover the key issues:

- Equalization of unequal deposits. By assigning known values in a market based system you eliminate the trade up/down issues of hidden or overly static values.
- Allowance for shortages. A perfect system. If you are short in trade value (dollars) pay the difference in dollars. 
- Minimal babysitting needed. By using fair market rates the whole system can run on a web interface with few behind the scenes personnel required.
- No membership for resorts required. By leaving it to the owners themselves the resorts don't have to put up with a big brother or tell owners they "have to" deal with company XXX

If a system like that existed and had owner support it might be the perfect exchange answer. Unfortunately there are far too many vested interests in maintaining the illusion that a week is a week, a big name is important and all trades are equal to ever have it become reality. If the majority of owners realized that they hold the poor 80% of trade value but want the top 20% they would not be happy. An open system exposes that right away as do most points systems. That becomes a very hard sell.


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## Steve (Jun 24, 2006)

*This sounds great!*

I would be very enthusiastic about this.  Heck, I might even apply for a job.  I'd love to be part of a team putting together a new business related to timesharing.  If done right, this could be a success.

Credibility is a huge issue at the beginning...and I totally agree that having someone involved who not only has tremendous experience in the industry but is also well known and respected in the TUG community...ie, Craig...is an important factor.  It's not just what you know but who you know that counts in starting a new business.  You've got to get those first customers who are willing to go out on a limb and trust you...they prime the pump for the many who come later once your company has an established reputation.

A new company can work...please keep us updated.

Steve


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## topcop400 (Jun 24, 2006)

"Change the X-Change" hasn't checked in since his two posts yesterday asking for ideas.

I think there have been some great ideas given here.


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## Dean (Jun 24, 2006)

CraigU said:
			
		

> Exclusive contracts in this context only dictate the exchange company that is affiliated with the developer. Individual resort owners cannot be bound by an agreement between third parties.


Hi Craig.  I agree, however, a resort cannot be required to actively work with that independent exchange company (such as actively confirming the weeks) and as such, it would be treated as any other private exchange in such cases.  OK unless things don't go right.

There certainly are many variables to establishing a niche of an exchange system.  For every person you aim for, there are man others you will be shooting at.  If it's first come first served, those with the better weeks won't be interested.  If it's a reasonable points based or a transparent trade power system, many off season or lower owners will be offended.  I'd think the best options would be to strike up a partnership with one of the current independent's.  Another option would be a partnership with one or several of the larger timeshare sales companies for a somewhat captive inventory.  Or work out a deal with on of the current systems that already have an exchange system in place such as FF, Bluegreen, DVC, WorldMark, etc.  Or someone who might desire one like ?Marriott.

The problem with dealing with TUG members and the like are that they generally know how to maximize the current systems.  Usually a smaller system is harder to put yourself ahead than a larger one for those willing to learn the ropes.  I would be against a TUG sponsored system because it would likely eliminate much of the objectivity that this site tries to offer.

Interesting subject, I wish you the best.  Healthy competition will be good for all of us.


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## Change the X-change (Jun 24, 2006)

WOW!!! I opened up a can of worms…in this case this would be a positive!

To answer some of the questions and to address some of the great ideas that have been posted her I will say the following:

It would be 100% web based, it would be totally transparent, you would know the supply AND demand of your week before you even deposit it.  As far as space goes, I think I can pull something off (a few strings) to get some of the more desirable locations in first for straight exchanges. The exchanges themselves would not be based on quality, I understand the reasoning behind the big companies not wanting you to trade down more that 2 slots or trade up more that 2 slots (the latter would not apply in flex time) however, I say if you know up front that the place you are going to is not “up to par” or is off season etc. etc. you can’t complain now can you. The trick is to get you where you want to go, when you want to go there. The last thing I want to do is complicate myself or you with trade values. Your week will be “qualified” for lack of a better term based on season and quality itself however, you would not be restricted to trade for a like week, you can trade to whatever is there. Some will say that would result in a high number of inventory for undesirable locations…maybe…that space would be put up for low priced getaways and or maybe on e-bay or any other  thing I can think of to make sure the space will not waste.

The website would be set up so that you can check availability anywhere anytime, you would not be required to deposit your week to check beyond your week date.

Bonus weeks would not be restricted to flex time and my goal would be that you don’t have to go to Orlando once a year just because you don’t want to lose a bonus week.

About the monthly membership, that would just be an option, aren’t you tired of extending your membership for a year and then hearing “I have Orlando, in Feb.” You could pay a year in advance if you want and there would be only one level of membership not regular a preferred. Everyone would have a platinum membership with all the perks that come with it.

I have many other good Ideas; the good thing about them is that they are viable.

I am taking many of the ideas and opinions to heart and would love for another person to get involved with me on this venture if they would like, I am not selfish in that way, as long as it is understood that my main goal is to make the Customer happy…I’m not just saying that, of course I want to make money but that will come by itself when the customer is happy. 

By the way for those of you who do not know me (which is most of you) My name is Michael Vasquez and I worked several years for II as an Exchange floor Supervisor, My wife also worked there for over a decade as an Exchange floor Manager. We know the business and want to make it better.


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## Liz Wolf-Spada (Jun 24, 2006)

If you expect to have left over weeks for bonus etc., where are you planning on getting those, while still counting on a yearly one for one exchange for everyone? 
Thanks,
Liz


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## timeos2 (Jun 24, 2006)

Change the X-change said:
			
		

> Some will say that would result in a high number of inventory for undesirable locations…maybe…that space would be put up for low priced getaways and or maybe on e-bay or any other  thing I can think of to make sure the space will not waste.



Yes. I would say that. And how can you limit the availability only to timeshare owners if you plan to auction excess space on eBay or wherever? It already sounds like you know you will have plenty of unwanted time to move which is the problem with every weeks system out there already.  Whats so new?


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## Wonka (Jun 24, 2006)

Craig -

It's good to see you're visiting.  I agree a new venture partnering with TUG might be the ticket to success.  But, if TUG is truly non-profit oriented and the new venture is profit-motivated, how would that work?  I'd also agree having your involvement would be  a "jump start" because of the credibility you have her on TUG.  Get something going...you can have my 4 weeks.  Most of the time I deposit them and they go unused anyway.


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## CraigU (Jun 24, 2006)

Wonka said:
			
		

> Craig -
> 
> It's good to see you're visiting.  I agree a new venture partnering with TUG might be the ticket to success.  But, if TUG is truly non-profit oriented and the new venture is profit-motivated, how would that work?  I'd also agree having your involvement would be  a "jump start" because of the credibility you have her on TUG.  Get something going...you can have my 4 weeks.  Most of the time I deposit them and they go unused anyway.



Thank you for your vote of confidence however I have no association with the person who posted this thread.


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## Change the X-change (Jun 24, 2006)

CraigU said:
			
		

> Thank you for your vote of confidence however I have no association with the person who posted this thread.




This is correct...let's clarify this so there is no confusion.

The only reason I mentioned Craig was to drive the point home that II started very small as I would.

There is no association beyond being former II employees.


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## boyblue (Jun 24, 2006)

To get something like this off the ground it's going to take more than $50.00 dollar trades.  I can see $50.00 in 3 to 5 years but initially it's going to have to be almost free.  Your #1 asset will be those 3, 4 or 5 year commitments.  Year to year deposits are ok but in order to build something special you should attempt multiyear arrangements.

THE BIG QUESTION:

What would it take for a savvy TS owner to make a 3, 4 or 5 year commitment?  Also what would it take for the uninitiated (remember they are the majority) to do the same?

How about any or all of these:

•	First 30 days – free or reduced lifetime membership with 2, 5 year or 1, 10 year deposit.  This could be done for resorts rated above a certain level or it could be nondiscriminatory.

•	Annual membership done per unit.  Reduce rate for multiple unit owners.  ($30.00 for 1 unit $10.00 for each additional).

•	The first 25,000 deposits free (4 or 5 year minimum commitment).  Again this could be for resorts rated above a certain level.

•	Single year deposit ok if already a member for fee of $40.00.  If not a member $50.00 or $60.00.  In either case allow confirmation before deposit.

•	Trade ups – one level no charge, two levels - 2 in for 1 out

•	Trade downs – one level nothing, two levels - 2 or 3 out for 1 in

•	Owner of a week will be notified immediately when his week goes off market.  Up until that time he is free to rent the week.  In the case of a rental, a rental certificate would be issued by the exchange company – the fee $50.00

•	The process for reserving a unit – You reserve a unit it is then classified as reserved for 12 hours (everyone will be able to see it).  The unit is then confirmed unless someone with a stronger unit wants it.  The person with the strongest deposit gets the unit.  If there is a tie, the earliest request is the tie breaker 

•	Units with a grade of E or 1 will go to the auction block at the 60 day mark.  The 60 day auction will be members only and have a starting bid of $100.00.  The auctions will last 7 days

•	If a unit is not taken by 60 days before check in it is downgraded 1 notch therefore units initially rated 2 will go to auction at the 60 day mark.  3’s will then be available to 2’s, 5’s to 4’s etc.

•	At 45 days all unclaimed inventory will be reduced another notch.  The 45 day auction will be available to everyone.  The starting bid - $70.00.  Non members will have to purchase a guest certificate along with their winning bid.  The auctions will last 3 days.

•	At 30 days all inventory will be auctioned off.  This will also be a 3 day auction.

•	If a unit has to be downgraded 1 year it will not change the deposit rating.  If it has to be downgraded a second year the deposit will lose a half rating (3 will become a 2.5).  It will remain at that level unless it has 2 consecutive years of reduction.  It will then lose another half rating and so on.

•	Units that are taken very quickly (averaged over 3 years) will be upgraded.




Please forgive my ramblings but I was having so much fun!

ANOTHER CRAZY IDEA:

How about a new TS rating system?  The 4 components that make up the rating would be the resort itself, the resort amenities, the location, and the time of year.  I would suggest a rating in each category from 0 up to 1.25 with special 1.5 grading for excellence.  Just as a 4.8 would be considered an A-, a score above 5 would be considered an A+   

A = 5
B = 4
C = 3
D = 2
E = 1

Just brainstorming.


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## Change the X-change (Jun 24, 2006)

timeos2 said:
			
		

> Yes. I would say that. And how can you limit the availability only to timeshare owners if you plan to auction excess space on eBay or wherever? It already sounds like you know you will have plenty of unwanted time to move which is the problem with every weeks system out there already.  Whats so new?



E-bay was only a thought, if I were to take that route I would do quick 3 day auctions beginning after the week already started so the winner (most likely someone that lives near the resort) would use the tail end of the week. It would be advertised as a weekend getaway...this would ensure the space is available to the members even if they look for the space the day before check in.

What’s new?? The approach is new, the fees would be much less, no hiding weeks, not so many restrictions and rules and regulations. Don’t we already have enough of that in our daily life to have to deal with more rules when planning our vacation?

The main feature on this new way of exchanging would be that you would be treated with utmost respect, I would always keep in mind that you are doing me a favor and not the other way around.


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## Carl D (Jun 24, 2006)

Out of curiosity, did you pick the $50 amount and other policies out of thin air, or do you have a business plan/model that shows this will work?


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## boyblue (Jun 24, 2006)

Carl D said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, did you pick the $50 amount and other policies out of thin air, or do you have a business plan/model that shows this will work?



out of thin air base on current fees.


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## DanM (Jun 24, 2006)

This thread is wandering around a bit because the idea isn't really clear. It might be useful if the thread starter explained how the new venture might differ, specifically, from DAE or SFX which seem to be the main alternative exchanges.

For example, DAE treats all resorts and time periods equally. SFX won't accept deposits that don't meet its minimum demand and regional requirements. What is the proposed approach?


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## Change the X-change (Jun 24, 2006)

Carl D said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, did you pick the $50 amount and other policies out of thin air, or do you have a business plan/model that shows this will work?




I figured I worked for II so long and I thought that much of the system was so unfair to the member that I just decided that whatever policy and procedure they had in place, I would do the opposite...just kidding.

I know this business well...think of it, what are policies, it's just a person or group of people sitting down in an office and rambling about how things should be done, the last person that is asked is the end user.

The policies do not have to be written in stone, if they are in place they have to be followed however, I would encourage and even promote a board of elected members/customers that would get together and review policies that are not well liked, we will discuss them, express views and put them up for an optional on-line vote where ALL members can decide their own fate. It would probably be limited to one policy a quarter.


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## boyblue (Jun 24, 2006)

Carl D said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, did you pick the $50 amount and other policies out of thin air, or do you have a business plan/model that shows this will work?


oops I thought you were asking me that question - Sorry!


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## Change the X-change (Jun 24, 2006)

DanM said:
			
		

> For example, DAE treats all resorts and time periods equally. SFX won't accept deposits that don't meet its minimum demand and regional requirements. What is the proposed approach?





I would try to stay away from SFX format…I do not believe in catering to the “elite” only. I would take any week and any time you have. Since the member is an essential part of this operation I would appeal to the good faith of the members to attain the best week that they are allowed by their home resort if this happens we should have good availability, to help with this "good faith" I would throw in a NO RESTRICTIONS bonus week good for 2 years, it would be based solely on time of the year and not on quality.

DAE is more along the lines of what I am looking at with marked differences i.e. exchange fee; with them you need to call to reserve your week.  With me, no holding, no rude rep. 100% on-line. Also, I would have member involvement to opine and maybe even change the way business is conducted this, just to mention a few.


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## Change the X-change (Jun 24, 2006)

Boy Blue, you have some outstanding Ideas, hope you don't mind if I use a few...


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## taffy19 (Jun 24, 2006)

CraigU said:
			
		

> A partnership with TUG would provide instant credibility...
> 
> Just a thought!


Now, you are talking!  Can't you two set it up with the owner?


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## PerryM (Jun 24, 2006)

*Apples and oranges*

Apples and oranges – that’s the problem with II and RCI now – they try to equate 1 whole apple to 1 whole orange.  It can’t be done for fruit and it can’t be done with timeshares.

X, I wish you luck but feel you are doomed with the ideas you’ve presented here – this the same old Three Card Monte and I think the timeshare world is burned out with it.  Look at all the moaning and groaning that goes one all the time here.

You need to equate 1 apple to 2 oranges or 2 apples to 1 orange.  Ideally you would relate 1 apple to 1.5 oranges.

This can’t be done without a point based exchange and with condo-hotels and fractional integration a point based system can easily handle all of this where the week based system can’t.

I wish you good luck but I see this venture already doomed.


----------



## Change the X-change (Jun 24, 2006)

*Re: Apples and oranges*



			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> I wish you good luck but I see this venture already doomed.



I disclosed my name in a previos posting, it's Mike, nice to meet you sir.

I respect your opinion and we'll see how it goes...loser buys lunch...I'll contact you to collect.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Jun 24, 2006)

Change,

I currently get AC's for two of my weeks, which I really appreciate, considering my weeks are not Five Star, but are high demand times.  Would you have an equivalent to this?  I love the bonus weeks and we use them every year.  We own less weeks because of those bonuses.  

I would love to see a new company that would rival RCI and Interval.  Having owned timeshare for 25 years, we have gotten very comfortable with our current situation.  But I would try it, as long as you can get me to Disneyworld!


----------



## boyblue (Jun 25, 2006)

Change the X-change said:
			
		

> Boy Blue, you have some outstanding Ideas, hope you don't mind if I use a few...



Sure go ahead, that's why I posted em.


----------



## PerryM (Jun 25, 2006)

*Socks*

X, (I know your name is Mike - I’m using a shortcut of your handle)

Your handle is “Change the X-change”. I had high hopes, but fear that you’ve been exposed to II too much and the radical upstart that can someday take on II and RCI will not be done with a kinder and gentler version.

II and RCI are well run monopolies that a dozen or so pipsqueak exchanges have been battling with little success – a radical departure is needed to unseat these two.

RCI Points already has addressed the idea of a virtual timeshare where you buy RCI Points and don’t care what timeshare generated them.  Because of the terrible implementation of a beautiful Point program, there is room here to overtake RCI Points, which is the future of timeshare exchanges.

Let’s see if others come forward with bold new ideas that will knock the socks of the establishment.

As to lunch; I work out at lunchtime but my favorite restaurant is Ruth’s Chris Steak House
in Wailea (or Lahaina), Maui.


----------



## getreal (Jun 25, 2006)

*Re: My dream exchange company*



			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> Here’s my thoughts on the ultimate exchange company:
> 
> It should be Points driven based on rental rates.
> 
> When someone deposits a week, a rack rental rate would be assigned to the week and that money would be deposited into an account.  (Company does this) ...



Perry, the "rack rental rate" is the only thing we need.  As soon as that is established and widely respected/trusted, everything else will fall in place thanks to the internet.  Multiple exchange companies will appear overnight, just like lots selling used cars. 

If there was an objective valuation then we may see TS rental market with a high sales volume, and then nobody needs an exchange company:  you simply sell your unwanted week(s) on the open market, and buy the week(s) you want.    

And as long as the what you get for your old week + $164 is less than you pay for the new week, you are ahead of RCI.

TUG can create the "rack rental rate" database with very little expense.  It will transform the TS market.


----------



## JillChang (Jun 25, 2006)

I fully support a point system and the flexibility that comes with it.

How about modelling it after a multi-resort system?  Pay an annual fee to become member, deposit a week for an established point value, and free to use the points to reserve days(if allowed by resorts) or weeks within the system *WITHOUT AN EXCHANGE FEE*  

You could probably demand a higher fixed membership fee but the flexibility and zero exchange fee should be popular, you will definitely attract owners with multiple resorts.  Or to be fair, you can charge a membership fee based on a percentage of points banked.  Since all weeks have a preassigned point value, then they can all be available online with 100% transparency!

I will also like to see the followings:
1.  No expiration or long expiry date, say 5 years. Or, to be fair, a depreciation (10%?) of points each year after 2 years so owners do not completely loose their banked week.
2.  Last minute promotion or discounts on points
3.  Occasional bonus for high demand week/resorts or early deposit (good marketing strategy anyway, people always like to see promotions)
4.  Free guest certificate
5. Allow cancellation/ changes within a certain time frame, and/or minimal charge after that, say 90 days out.  So many of us have to change our plans after having it made more than a year in advance, and there are also so many that wish they can make arrangement much later and still have a nice selection of properties to choose from.
6.  And if you can manage, an affiliation with a top hotel chain to allow members to use their points on hotels in cities and countries where timeshares are seriously lacking!  Of course, the points used on hotels has to make monetary sense based on MF paid.

Am I asking too much?    sounds good to me,maybe I should start an exchange company with this model


----------



## grest (Jun 25, 2006)

Good luck with your new venture.  I support that. 
Why not have someone try to form a new exchange company?  RCI and II started somewhere, probably with not much, so why not Mike?  We can then have another option...He's right up front in what he's planning, and asking for ideas...so far so good
Connie


----------



## PerryM (Jun 25, 2006)

*The GetReal Timeshare Ratio is now defined!*

GetReal,

I like your idea!  Rental rack rates can also be used to value a timeshare.  If a timeshare generates $2,000 per week in rental income (Rental rack rate) what should that timeshare sell for?  Kind of like the old Price to Earnings ratio of a stock.  When the PE of a stock is too high it is overpriced as to it’s value generated.

Price to Rental ratios could easily be established and the lower this number the better your purchase.  E.g. If a Platinum Marriott sells for $35,000 and its rack rate is $2,450 then the ratio is .07  Is this a good deal or not?  The inverse of this number might make more sense i.e. the purchase price divided by the rack rate = 14.28.

That means it takes 14.28 years of renting to pay for the timeshare.  The lower the number the less time to pay off the timeshare and the better the deal.  For instance, financing that timeshare thru the developer at 14.99% doubles the price of the timeshare and thus this ratio would be 28.56 - it takes almost 3 decades to pay off that timeshare - a clear warning sign.

This might start owners thinking of the price of their timeshare grounded back to some reality and not the fairytales spun by the salesrep.

In your honor, I'm going to name this ratio the "GetReal" timeshare ratio.


----------



## pedro47 (Jun 25, 2006)

Sound like Change the X - change has gotten what he wanted TUGS t/s owners would like and would support another exchange company.  Look at the number of hits that have read this thread over one thousands.


----------



## Change the X-change (Jun 25, 2006)

I would like to thank everyone for all the responses and all the great Ideas and concerns that have been exposed here...this will prove to be invaluable when making my final draft of the business plan.

As promised in one of my earlier postings, I would like to keep the members involved and since I do not yet have actual members, I will compile a list of the people that have participated in this thread with ideas and/or opinions until 12PM EST today and will send them all my game plan (it'll be a couple of weeks), they will also be the first to view the website (1-2 months) and will be able provide feedback on that also.

Please continue to post your ideas and opinions...I really take them to heart. I will always be in debt with you all.


----------



## geekette (Jun 25, 2006)

boyblue said:
			
		

> The process for reserving a unit – You reserve a unit it is then classified as reserved for 12 hours (everyone will be able to see it).  The unit is then confirmed unless someone with a stronger unit wants it.  The person with the strongest deposit gets the unit.  If there is a tie, the earliest request is the tie breaker



No way.  If it's held, no one else gets a shot, Holder has priority.  It's ridiculous to be checking with family and friends and then have it yanked out from under you.

I like your brainstorming for the most part, Blue, but on this one, I strongly vote No, even if the Hold is bumped to 24 hours.


----------



## boyblue (Jun 25, 2006)

geekette said:
			
		

> No way.  If it's held, no one else gets a shot, Holder has priority.  It's ridiculous to be checking with family and friends and then have it yanked out from under you.
> 
> I like your brainstorming for the most part, Blue, but on this one, I strongly vote No, even if the Hold is bumped to 24 hours.



Yea, you’re right Geek.  If a week is strong enough to reserve, it should be good enough to keep it.  On this point I digress.


----------



## Kola (Jun 25, 2006)

*Re: My dream exchange company*



			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> e.g. I own 3 Silver Marriotts that each rent by Marriott on the reservation days for $125 per day.  7 * $125 = $875 * 3 units = $2,625 in my account.
> 
> I see a January week in Park City to ski for $2,000 and I make the exchange and have $625 in my account.
> 
> ...


----------



## PerryM (Jun 25, 2006)

*Dream exchange company*

Kola, great question!

In my dream exchange company the humans that work there actually do some work!  They would be experts at finding rental sources and coming up with rental rates.  If the resort does not rent units then comparable units must be found.  This would initially take time and effort but once one reservation is deposited this rate becomes a base for future deposits.

This is no different than real estate appraisers – these folks will quickly become experts at looking at surrounding rental rates and come up with a rate that is based on reality.  Heck, just look at RedWeek and MyResortNetwork and you have a great feel for what owners rent their units for now.  Those rates normally reflect a 50% discount over renting from the resort.  Where the resort does not rent then these numbers reflect the rental Rack Rate.

Humans make mistakes and when a person places their unit up for deposit the company replies with the rental rate and if they have some proof that the rate should be higher they could challenge the rate.  They would get 1 chance and it would cost $50 (or whatever).

It’s important to understand that all of this is done BEFORE the owner accepts the offer and deposits the week in the program.  Folks depositing have therefore decided that the rack rate is correct – folks not depositing have decided that the rack rate is too low and those folks can challenge the judges – 1 time for a fee.

I want to emphasize that this company does NOT have relations with 3,000 resorts like II and RCI has – you deposit your reservation and you sign a contract and acknowledge that you give this company the reservation according to their rules.  This company could start up overnight.


----------



## Change the X-change (Jun 25, 2006)

*Re: Dream exchange company*



			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> I want to emphasize that this company does NOT have relations with 3,000 resorts like II and RCI has – you deposit your unit and you sign a contract and acknowledge that you give this company the reservation according to their rules.  This company could start up overnight.



Relationship with the reosrts?? The one and only relationship the resorts understand is $$$$.

If I call up a resort and tell them I can send current timeshare owners (potencial buyers) to the resort, and I tell them it would cost them nothing except some space that would be given up on a contingency basis (they would take it back if not exchanged within 60 days of the check-in date), the reosrts would jump all over it. Believe me I know.

The good thing about my system is that in all actuality you don't have to deposit your week at all unless you find what you want. Period.

I know there will be questions as to how will there be any space available if I don't have any affiliated resorts and if you (the memeber) are not required to deposit unless you find what you want...I will explain this in detail in my business plan.

Please continue posting...you are all great!


----------



## gmarine (Jun 25, 2006)

*Re: Dream exchange company*



			
				Change the X-change said:
			
		

> Relationship with the reosrts?? The one and only relationship the resorts understand is $$$$.
> 
> If I call up a resort and tell them I can send current timeshare owners (potencial buyers) to the resort, and I tell them it would cost them nothing except some space that would be given up on a contingency basis (they would take it back if not exchanged within 60 days of the check-in date), the reosrts would jump all over it. Believe me I know.
> 
> ...



Let me see if I understand this. A former II employee with, what was it 10 years under his belt, thinks a resort is going to give him inventory to use on a contingency basis. And the resort is going to get what ? Guests? Possible buyers? Big deal, they want rental $$ and a possible buyer. That doesnt even take into account the resorts that are sold out.

The resorts will rent the units before they give them away for free only to possibly get them back 60 days before check in and likely not rent the week at that point. 

Your ideas are nothing new and your experience isnt enough to impress any resorts into a relationship with you.

New exchange companies are popping up all the time. DAE, Platinum, SFX etc. Its nothing we havent heard before.

Unless you have some great ideas hidden that you havent divulged, your business plan sounds very flawed.

Should you attempt it, good luck.


----------



## suzanne (Jun 25, 2006)

CRAIG, it is great to see you on TUG again. You have been missed. Hope all is well with you.

Suzanne


----------



## PerryM (Jun 25, 2006)

*Caveats*

X,

In my theoretical company, no one need deposit their week unless they saw something that was of interest to them.  However, the clock is ticking and each day has the rental rate decreased by a small amount.  Also, there are ongoing searches that are time stamped and get first dibs at newly deposited reservations.

I could see another caveat, if the unit you placed up for exchange did not exchange (check-in day came and no one exchanged) it could never again be placed in the system.  This would allow owners of undesirable units or units put up so late that no one could use them to do the following:

The rental rate for each reservation can be moved downwards by the owner but not upwards.  The balance in their account would be adjusted downwards by that decrease and if a negative balance resulted their credit card would immediately be charged before this took place.

This allows the owner who’s reservation is foundering a reason to monitor that reservation and even voluntarily reduce the points needed to exchange in.  Right now the cheap weeks are taken by the exchange companies and I suspect some expire worthless.

Oh, the exchange cost is very simple, you pay only if you make an exchange and it’s 1%  (or some rate that makes sense) of the rental rate.  If you find a $3,000 reservation, you pay $30.  There might be a minimum charge like $25.  There are no membership fees or annual dues - there are no reasons not to set up an account, shop and if you like what you see deposit your reservation at no cost.

Another caveat; if something happens to your reservation, like you forget to pay the maintenance fees you are immediately billed, on your credit card, for the rental amount.  Deposit a week 52 at Maui and the rental rate is $4,000 you have a very big incentive to make sure you pay that maintenance fee and you don’t rent the reservation twice to someone else.  This puts pressure on the owner to insure that everything flows smoothly.

Another benefit – you can rent any reservation for the rental amount.  You are limited to the amount you have deposited in the past.  So, for instance, you deposit 4 weeks worth $6,000 of rentals you can pay cash for another $6,000 anytime you wish.

Any cash that enters the system as rent is kept to rent units from other folks (outside the program) if it should be deemed necessary.

This business plan could be implemented within a year with the right resources.

I'll keep dreaming.....

P.S.
ALL historical transactions are open for inspection to all members 24/7 - they can see what units exchanged and for what rental rate - this helps when deciding if they are interested in trying the program.  (Can you imagine the shock of all II and RCI members saw every single exchange!)  (If you agree that this would lead to rioting in the streets, you now understand why a different approach is needed).

P.P.S.
Reviews by folks would contribute as input to the rental amount.  Right now the exchange companies keep this all secret – no secrets here.  If you find the resort to be not up to standards you just say so and the pressure is on the owner to reduce the rental rate if need be.  However evidence, like pictures, must support any claim positive or negative.  Any negative claim will be sent to the resort for their reply – this reply will be part of the review.

Basically the more the owners get involved the better the program – this is 180° opposite of what the exchange companies do now.


----------



## Change the X-change (Jun 25, 2006)

PerryM, 

You have very interesting Ideas...I find that some of them are not applicable however, many, maybe even most of them are viable.

You have sparked my interest in your Idea. Although I have a set gameplan already, I would be willing to implement your idea also as an additional option for members. After determining which program is more successful the other would be gradually faded out.

I have seen many posts stating the similarities betwwen my proposed idea and the "traditional" exchange companies...I think the main thing that sets me apart from all other companies is that I came here first, to the end user, to the direct source...I have to pat myself on the back for doing that it has proven invaluable...I must also say that the TUG community has been very open about thier ideas, this tells me that there is a very unselfish desire for a new and better alternative.

Thanks to you all, 

Mike V.


----------



## #1 Cowboys Fan (Jun 25, 2006)

I'm reading along with this thread----hmm, interesting.

Mike, do I need to go out and buy a better week SOON---or will you take my 'weak week'??

Pat


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## boyblue (Jun 26, 2006)

Mike,

Is your plan going to involve only weeks trading?  If you are going to include Points, can you share the outline of that plan with us?


----------



## fnewman (Jun 26, 2006)

I've scanned the posts quickly, but see a couple of issues.

RACK RATES:  The so called 'rack rates' are so arbitrary and ficticious that they really don't represent realy value, IMHO.  If they were to be the basis of exchange, I can see them getting even more unrealistic.  If you really want a TUG - friendly value system, come up with a system of points based on TUG member feedback and evaluation.

POINTS : To gain broad acceptance, the system must allow for points as well as weeks on a basis that is fair to all.  Otherwise people who own 3 and 4BR weeks will never be able to trade to 1BR when desired.


----------



## PerryM (Jun 26, 2006)

*Starting small*

Frank,

Marriotts would be the first folks to introduce this concept.  Every Marriott has a rack rate that is real – you pay that rate unless there are more than 1 and then you can get certain discounts.  That rack rate is reality.

FairField is another huge developer that has realistic rack rates – they would be next.  Disney is in the same boat – realistic rack rates.  This would be enough to start this going without much of a staff – simply use the internet to get these rates.

I agree that the smaller resorts require more work and I have no doubts that a rack rate can be found for each week at any resort.  The owner must agree to the rack rate before they deposit.

I see no reason why everything on VRBO can’t be immediately incorporated into this plan – they would have to supply proof of past rentals.  Why limit this to just timeshares when realistic rental rates are involved?  Timeshares, private condos, private homes, etc - anything with a verifiable rental rate can be incorporated.

I don’t see any reason why everything on RedWeek, MyResortNetwork, and VRBO can’t be integrated with no problems at all - it will take time and work.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Jun 26, 2006)

VRI also has real rack rates for the resorts it manages.

edited to add:  So does Raintree Vacation Club (including Club Regina and Whiski Jack).


----------



## geekette (Jun 26, 2006)

*The problem with points*

is in the execution.

Seems to me it will be way more work to get those 3 and 4 day reservations correctly filed with the resorts that will even consider it.  That might kill the 100% electronic.  Mark, is this something you are considering and do you have a way around it?


----------



## Change the X-change (Jun 26, 2006)

#1 Cowboys Fan said:
			
		

> I'm reading along with this thread----hmm, interesting.
> 
> Mike, do I need to go out and buy a better week SOON---or will you take my 'weak week'??
> 
> Pat




Kepp your week, It'll probably do fine.


----------



## Change the X-change (Jun 26, 2006)

Change the X-change said:
			
		

> Kepp your week, It'll probably do fine.



I should start using spell check I meant keep.


----------



## Change the X-change (Jun 26, 2006)

boyblue said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> Is your plan going to involve only weeks trading?  If you are going to include Points, can you share the outline of that plan with us?



I knew TUG would be a good starting point, never did I think it would be as great as it has.

After reading all the posts I went back and drafted something new and bigger and better. My original game plan is pretty much already set so, changing it now would probably detrimental to my entire structure however, I have decided to implement many of the ideas here exposed. 

My project will have three phases:

1. - The initial phase will be as planned, straight week exchanges 
2. - Second phase will introduce a points system based on members input and reviews
3, - Third and last phase, rack value of the weeks. 

Details of phase one will be available soon. I estimate it will take aprox. 2 years for all phases to be complete. With phase one launching in aprox. 3 – 6 months.

Again, I can’t thank you enough for the ideas.


----------



## Change the X-change (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: The problem with points*



			
				geekette said:
			
		

> is in the execution.
> 
> Seems to me it will be way more work to get those 3 and 4 day reservations correctly filed with the resorts that will even consider it.  That might kill the 100% electronic.  Mark, is this something you are considering and do you have a way around it?



I am considering points, please see my previous post...I am sure just like everything else it has a work around...I'm sure I'll find it!


----------



## PerryM (Jun 27, 2006)

*Stick with 7-day reservations with timeshares*

I think RCI made a huge mistake getting into the less than 7-day reservation – a timeshare is for 7 days a hotel is for less.  RCI is renting out 7-day timeshares in a hotel universe of 3-day stays  – the reason they must cut their rental rates in half – they picked the wrong market to rent to.

Even our WM resorts require a minimum of 7 days in Red season.

Private residences, on the other hand can rent out any number of days they wish.  Look at www.VRBO.com and they have 56,500 vacation homes and condos for rent all over the world.  Multiply that by 52 weeks and that one site contains 3 million reservations!  Normally they do have minimum stays during the holiday seasons.

All of those folks should be incorporated into an exchange program.


----------



## Change the X-change (Jun 27, 2006)

rickandcindy23 said:
			
		

> Change,
> 
> I currently get AC's for two of my weeks, which I really appreciate, considering my weeks are not Five Star, but are high demand times.  Would you have an equivalent to this?  I love the bonus weeks and we use them every year.  We own less weeks because of those bonuses.
> 
> I would love to see a new company that would rival RCI and Interval.  Having owned timeshare for 25 years, we have gotten very comfortable with our current situation.  But I would try it, as long as you can get me to Disneyworld!



LOL! Thanks for stating you would try it out...you won't be dissapointed.

Bonus weeks will be based on high demand areas during high demand times regardless of quality.


----------



## Change the X-change (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Stick with 7-day reservations with timeshares*



			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> I think RCI made a huge mistake getting into the less than 7-day reservation – a timeshare is for 7 days a hotel is for less.  RCI is renting out 7-day timeshares in a hotel universe of 3-day stays  – the reason they must cut their rental rates in half – they picked the wrong market to rent to.
> .




7 day rentals only...that is the way to go I fully agree.

They did pick the wrong market, you are right. It was done backwards. You bring rental properties to TS owners not TS properties to renters.


----------



## Carolinian (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: The problem with points*

If you put a points program in that has access to weeks-based inventory, the experience of the unfair generic points grids of RCI fro crossover trades of Points into Weeks will put off those who have had experience of the unfair interface of RCI Weeks and RCI Points.

RCI and the minis are trying to grab the points market.  The fertile ground for independents is grabbing the huge numbers of weeks based members they are leaving in the lurch.  Putting in a points component muddies the water in this regard.  Will the new company just end up screwing weeks-based members like RCI?  I think most weeks based members would have more confidenece in a system that doesn't have a points component.  




			
				Change the X-change said:
			
		

> I am considering points, please see my previous post...I am sure just like everything else it has a work around...I'm sure I'll find it!


----------



## Carolinian (Jun 27, 2006)

Another group that will be offended by a points system is those whose weeks are screwed by the overaveraging that is endemic to a points system - like giving the same value to a week 33 mid-August beach week and a late October week 43 of the same size at the same resort.

No points system based on a printed set of values could print a table that could possibly be fair, as there is just too much data.  That is the inherent flaw in any points system.  Try to nitpick the numbers needed for an exchange but have a valuation system that is anything but exact.  That is the worst of both worlds.



			
				Dean said:
			
		

> Hi Craig.  I agree, however, a resort cannot be required to actively work with that independent exchange company (such as actively confirming the weeks) and as such, it would be treated as any other private exchange in such cases.  OK unless things don't go right.
> 
> There certainly are many variables to establishing a niche of an exchange system.  For every person you aim for, there are man others you will be shooting at.  If it's first come first served, those with the better weeks won't be interested.  If it's a reasonable points based or a transparent trade power system, many off season or lower owners will be offended.  I'd think the best options would be to strike up a partnership with one of the current independent's.  Another option would be a partnership with one or several of the larger timeshare sales companies for a somewhat captive inventory.  Or work out a deal with on of the current systems that already have an exchange system in place such as FF, Bluegreen, DVC, WorldMark, etc.  Or someone who might desire one like ?Marriott.
> 
> ...


----------



## Carolinian (Jun 27, 2006)

But failing to cooperate with an independent may well be an act in restraint of trade, actionable under state consumer protection laws.  Resorts are better off if their members have as many exchange options as possible.





			
				Dean said:
			
		

> Hi Craig.  I agree, however, a resort cannot be required to actively work with that independent exchange company (such as actively confirming the weeks) and as such, it would be treated as any other private exchange in such cases.  OK unless things don't go right.
> 
> There certainly are many variables to establishing a niche of an exchange system.  For every person you aim for, there are man others you will be shooting at.  If it's first come first served, those with the better weeks won't be interested.  If it's a reasonable points based or a transparent trade power system, many off season or lower owners will be offended.  I'd think the best options would be to strike up a partnership with one of the current independent's.  Another option would be a partnership with one or several of the larger timeshare sales companies for a somewhat captive inventory.  Or work out a deal with on of the current systems that already have an exchange system in place such as FF, Bluegreen, DVC, WorldMark, etc.  Or someone who might desire one like ?Marriott.
> 
> ...


----------



## PerryM (Jun 27, 2006)

*Barter V Currency*

Carolinian,

I was waiting for the RCI V RCI Points to enter this fray.

Just because RCI Points did just about everything wrong does not doom a properly run points program - especially one that is grounded in reality.

Every Week based program is really a Points based program internally – each reservation is distilled into a number that represents trading power – the computers can only work with number not hunches.  Unfortunately that number must be kept secret since it was cooked up out of thin air by the computer and has very little to do with reality.

The rules employed by II and RCI are there only for the benefit of exchange company – we all have had lopsided exchanges where we gave up a dog and got a thoroughbred.  That practice is wrong and it happens so often to make exchange rules a joke. 

The Points in my dream program are US dollar based and thus timeshares/condos in other countries are converted into US dollars.  There are NO secrets in this system.  US dollars are a substitute for the Points and can be added in to make an exchange the member wants.

A rule I use for investments is if there are any secrets, I don’t get involved – RCI and II are on par with the CIA when it comes to secrets and thus should be avoided.

The problem with RCI Points, WM, FF, Club IntraWest, and Disney is that those points are not based on anything that accurately reflects supply and demand; and that’s what exchanging is all about – the supply and demand for a unit. 

I challenge anyone to come up with a program that is fairer and 100% open to the members and where the members have so much freedom and flexibility.

Getting the person who deposits a unit involved is key – that does not exist now and folks dump Motel 6 quality stuff that has 0 demand but tons of supply.  That person will have enough control to reduce the points gotten to the point where the units are attractive to someone.  Supply and demand become equal.

We are basically back to the old barter versus currency approach to exchanging.  This time around, however, the currency is US dollars.

Barter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter

Currency: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency


----------



## geekette (Jun 27, 2006)

Carolinian said:
			
		

> Another group that will be offended by a points system is those whose weeks are screwed by the overaveraging that is endemic to a points system - like giving the same value to a week 33 mid-August beach week and a late October week 43 of the same size at the same resort.
> 
> No points system based on a printed set of values could print a table that could possibly be fair, as there is just too much data.  That is the inherent flaw in any points system.  Try to nitpick the numbers needed for an exchange but have a valuation system that is anything but exact.  That is the worst of both worlds.



I know that you prefer supply and demand tables to be dynamic, and I understand Why, but I think Bluegreen does a good job with static tables.  You know what you can afford and you know what you have.  Sure, sometimes something will be out of whack, but it's an acceptable level of deviation, IMO, and apparently in theirs.  

Administering constant change increases costs astronomically - someone has  to be constantly evaluating and changing those tables, so there is nothing for the poor owner to hang their hat on:  "Well, if I act now, I might be able to go to Resort X but if I wait a week to make sure Tom and Sue can go with us, I may not have the points for it".  That's changing the game on both ends and seems like it would be extremely frustrating to everyone (again, just my opinion, I do not own RCI Points).

Mark, I look forward to test driving your system - put me down for banging on beta.


----------



## Dean (Jun 27, 2006)

Carolinian said:
			
		

> Another group that will be offended by a points system is those whose weeks are screwed by the overaveraging that is endemic to a points system - like giving the same value to a week 33 mid-August beach week and a late October week 43 of the same size at the same resort.
> 
> No points system based on a printed set of values could print a table that could possibly be fair, as there is just too much data.  That is the inherent flaw in any points system.  Try to nitpick the numbers needed for an exchange but have a valuation system that is anything but exact.  That is the worst of both worlds.


Most of the things you complain so much about with points happens to a larger degree with with weeks.  You make false assumptions about the fairness and flexibility of the current weeks systems, it simply isn't so.  The transparency and flexibility of the weeks system are the best features and worth far more than the averaging you complain about.



			
				Carolinian said:
			
		

> But failing to cooperate with an independent may well be an act in restraint of trade, actionable under state consumer protection laws.  Resorts are better off if their members have as many exchange options as possible.


Unlikely there is any legal concourse as there are no laws broken or even bent that I can see.  The members can do what they want with their weeks and it's between them and whomever.  If the resort refused to honor the property structured reservation, that would be a different matter.  And while members may or may not be better off with additional choices, I doubt resort will be at all.


----------



## Carolinian (Jun 27, 2006)

The resort is better off, because if a member gets ticked with an exchange company, they can just switch to a different one, rather than bailing out and deeding back their week.

As far as laws broken, the laws of every state plus federal law prohibit restraint of trade.

I have posted quite a few examples of the ''fairness'' of RCI's numbers racket called RCI Points that are simply not assumptions.  They are hard numbers.

As to flexiblity, the most important flexibility in an exchange system is flexibility of the exchange mechanism.  A set of rigged and frozen numbers that rarely if ever, change, like in Points, is simply NOT flexible.  Trading values, published or not, that constantly adjust for ever changing factors of supply and demand, like Weeks trading power, are much more flexible.  A system that is not flexible enough to adjust for the fact that Thanksgiving some years is week 46 instead of 47 (like RCI Points does not) is much more rigid than a system flexible enough to give the Thanksgiving bump to the proper week, like RCI Weeks does.

Weeks and Points each have areas that they are more flexible than the other.
But Weeks has the greater flexibility in its  timeshare exchange mechanism, and in an exchange system that is where the rubber meets the road.  Overpriced split weeks and overpriced rental cars, cruises, and similar fluff just don't matter as much.






			
				Dean said:
			
		

> Most of the things you complain so much about with points happens to a larger degree with with weeks.  You make false assumptions about the fairness and flexibility of the current weeks systems, it simply isn't so.  The transparency and flexibility of the weeks system are the best features and worth far more than the averaging you complain about.
> 
> Unlikely there is any legal concourse as there are no laws broken or even bent that I can see.  The members can do what they want with their weeks and it's between them and whomever.  If the resort refused to honor the property structured reservation, that would be a different matter.  And while members may or may not be better off with additional choices, I doubt resort will be at all.


----------



## Dean (Jun 27, 2006)

Carolinian said:
			
		

> The resort is better off, because if a member gets ticked with an exchange company, they can just switch to a different one, rather than bailing out and deeding back their week.


That is extremely far fetched and not reality IMO.



> As far as laws broken, the laws of every state plus federal law prohibit restraint of trade..


Since this would not apply in this case, I fail to see your point as there is no restraint of trade.



> I have posted quite a few examples of the ''fairness'' of RCI's numbers racket called RCI Points that are simply not assumptions.  They are hard numbers.


The points are true, your interpretation is suspect.  And your idea that the weeks system is run fairly and changes on the fly in the way you suggest is more than suspect.



> As to flexiblity, the most important flexibility in an exchange system is flexibility of the exchange mechanism.  A set of rigged and frozen numbers that rarely if ever, change, like in Points, is simply NOT flexible.  Trading values, published or not, that constantly adjust for ever changing factors of supply and demand, like Weeks trading power, are much more flexible.  A system that is not flexible enough to adjust for the fact that Thanksgiving some years is week 46 instead of 47 (like RCI Points does not) is much more rigid than a system flexible enough to give the Thanksgiving bump to the proper week, like RCI Weeks does.
> 
> Weeks and Points each have areas that they are more flexible than the other.
> But Weeks has the greater flexibility in its  timeshare exchange mechanism, and in an exchange system that is where the rubber meets the road.  Overpriced split weeks and overpriced rental cars, cruises, and similar fluff just don't matter as much.


I couldn't disagree with you more and couldn't feel you were further from the truth than I do now.


----------



## Carolinian (Jun 27, 2006)

I would suggest that you also test the waters at www.timeshareforums.com , and for the European market at www.timesharetalk.co.uk

All of this probably saves a bundle on focus groups!




			
				Change the X-change said:
			
		

> PerryM,
> 
> You have very interesting Ideas...I find that some of them are not applicable however, many, maybe even most of them are viable.
> 
> ...


----------



## PerryM (Jun 27, 2006)

*Déjà Vu all over again*

Carolinian,

I just don’t see how this thread has anything to do with RCI?  Why are we rehashing the same old arguments over again?

I don’t see where Mike, the author of this thread, brought up RCI and why we are rehashing the same old arguments.

I would encourage folks to add constructive elements to this thread – that’s been my focus.


----------



## Carolinian (Jun 27, 2006)

If you are in the trenchs and see the increasing bailout problems resorts are seeing from the offseason exchangers, you would understand the problem.

As to restraint of trade, if a resort refuses to confirm to an independent company whether a member has paid their m/f's and is eligible to deposit, but does to one of the big boys, as you suggest, then they are engaging in a monopolistic practice that is in restraint of trade.

I must admit that I was amused at some of the interpretations or spin that some of the Points advocates tried to put on the examples I have given.  One I have used a number of times is how one can take a blue week 12 at inland New Bern, NC with RCI points and trade it to a similar sized unit for a summer week on the Outer Banks.  That would never happen in Weeks, except rarely in the 45 day window if there was a cancellation, but it is right there in the Points numbers racket to use every day.  Interestingly there was a thread recently on TimeshareForums from a member questioning why in the world Fairfield would put a resort in New Bern, and after vacationing there, questioning it even more.  You might want to look up that thread.





			
				Dean said:
			
		

> That is extremely far fetched and not reality IMO.
> 
> Since this would not apply in this case, I fail to see your point as there is no restraint of trade.
> 
> ...


----------



## Carolinian (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Déjà Vu all over again*

Various people in this thread have made comparisions with various exchange companies.  It goes with the territory to make such comparisions.




			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> Carolinian,
> 
> I just don’t see how this thread has anything to do with RCI?  Why are we rehashing the same old arguments over again?
> 
> ...


----------



## Carolinian (Jun 27, 2006)

*International penetration?..*

An exchange company that would be limited to mainly domestic exchanges would not be very appealing.  What do you have in mind to reach international resorts?

Would you try to link up with overseas exchange companies like Interchange in Australia / New  Zealand and UKRE in the British Isles, or mini-systems like Hapimag in Europe?  Would you try to build your own presence overseas?

I wonder if Timelinx would unload its exchange component.  While founded as an exchange company, and one of the first to use the internet for that purpose, its new owners have taken the company in another direction and now the only reference to exchanging on their website is a statement that they still do exchanges for ''members of the old company''.  In particular, the owners at the resort Timelinx developed at a chateau in Normandy could probably use other exchange opportunities.

It would seem to me that the most important overseas areas to open up for an exchange company are the Caribbean and Europe.


----------



## PerryM (Jun 27, 2006)

*Who wants to spend 20+ posts talking about RCI again?*

How many here vote to drudge up the RCI ills for this discussion?  And how will that advance the theme of Mike’s thread?


----------



## Carolinian (Jun 27, 2006)

*Related services*

What, if any, related services would you offer?

The original Swedish owners of Timelinx had an interesting idea of allowing members to use their website for resale, and had a member resale board on their site.

Some other companies have added things that get raspberries from most experienced timesharers, like the usually way overpriced ''cruise exchanges''.


----------



## Carolinian (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Who wants to spend 20+ posts talking about RCI again?*

Could you explain, then why you can reference RCI in your posts on this thread, but you take issue if I do so?




			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> How many here vote to drudge up the RCI ills for this discussion?  And how will that advance the theme of Mike’s thread?


----------



## Carolinian (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Cut the fat*

That was the premise when some business school grad students in Sweden started Timelinx some years ago, and they were the first exchange company to really get the internet bug.  Its too bad they sold the company to owners who have now taken it in a very different direction.

One of the founders of Timelinx used to read TUG on occaision, as I have gotten a few emails from him.  If he is still here, maybe he will give you some input.




			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> Whatever a new company would do there should be one goal in mind: *No Humans!*  All computers.  It drives me nuts when II and RCI call up to “chew the fat”, and fat is what needs to be cut out.
> 
> 100% internet driven.


----------



## timeos2 (Jun 27, 2006)

I believe the OP has heard the arguments pro & con for points vs weeks only. I'll find it interesting to see which way he goes or if it is a hybrid of both but in any case enough has already been said about each.


----------



## PerryM (Jun 27, 2006)

*A blank post*

blank, sorry.


----------



## Change the X-change (Jun 27, 2006)

geekette said:
			
		

> Mark, I look forward to test driving your system - put me down for banging on beta.



It's Mike...no biggie though. 

I got you down for Beta!


----------



## Change the X-change (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: International penetration?..*



			
				Carolinian said:
			
		

> An exchange company that would be limited to mainly domestic exchanges would not be very appealing.  What do you have in mind to reach international resorts?



Whoa! Gotta learn to crawl…Exchanges would be the predominant factor initially so, the space I get would be what is available…I know…I know, no big whoops there however, the idea is to bring rental properties into the mix so I do not have to rely solely on exchanges…this would be my main focus, rather than begging the owners of overseas weeks to deposit with me, and giving them bonus week after bonus week and year memberships and upgrades etc. etc. I would have these rental vacation properties available for the members. 

The way I would swing this with little to no monetary impact to the TS owner is what I am not ready to discuss, not because it is a secret, just because it is not yet up to par…it is still flawed. Any innovative Ideas are welcome.


----------



## boyblue (Jun 27, 2006)

Carolinian, If you had to create a points system what would you include/exclude?


----------



## PerryM (Jun 28, 2006)

*Dream on*

Link: http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/ali062606.html

Many if not most of those fractionals could easily be incorporated into my dream exchange.

Dream on.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Jun 28, 2006)

boyblue said:
			
		

> Carolinian, If you had to create a points system what would you include/exclude?



boyblue,

Even I can answer that one.  It would be the points part.  LOL.


----------



## boyblue (Jun 28, 2006)

:hysterical:   
Thanks BB that the best laugh I've had since the last time you got me! :rofl:


----------



## Carolinian (Jun 29, 2006)

There is a way that one of the worst features of RCI Points for timesharing as a whole could be done in a different way with much less negative impact.  That is the Points Partners area, something I have been critical of since RCI first rolled out GPN (the early name of RCI Points).  From the beginning, I pointed out that this would feed RCI rentals to the general public, something the RCI defenders vehemently denied on the old TUG board, and we have seen that in fact it has.

Airfare and hotel inventory could be offered on a member to member type of exchange, with the exchange company acting only as a broker, instead of buying and selling things in the market, which is what leads to the rentals. In the present Points Partner program, RCI buys an item like airfare, and then rents timeshare weeks to the general public to pay for it.

Instead of that system, they could interface with one or more airline ff programs and hotel points programs.  X number of timeshare points would give a member Y number of airline ff miles.  The only timeshare points program that does anything like this now is Hapimag with Lufthansa, but that is a cash deal with the airline rather than a member to member exchange.

The difference would be that this interface would involve airline ff program members and timeshare points members being able to access each other's programs, with the exchange company charging a fee for brokering the deal.
One would have to guess at the exchange rate in the beginning, but then it could be adjusted for actual market trends on a regular periodic basis.

An airline ff member acquiring timeshare points who was not already an exchange company member would then buy a temporary membership in the exchange company to use his timeshare points, another profit center for the exchange company.

This would be a true market based exchange with a good profit opportunity for the exchange company but no incentive for the exchange company to do any hanky-panky.  This would also eliminate one of the big excuses for timeshare rentals to the general public by exchange companies.





			
				boyblue said:
			
		

> Carolinian, If you had to create a points system what would you include/exclude?


----------



## boyblue (Jun 30, 2006)

Carolinian, actually one thing I've always agreed with you on is the uselessness of points partners.  I was more curious about points being used for trading timeshares.

Would you be for a properly implemented points program that used a uniform valuation system for week & points resorts?


----------



## Change the X-change (Jul 2, 2006)

UPDATE!!!

I am planning some changes that I know will make many happy...will be back in a few days to discuss.

Thanks to all


----------



## Carolinian (Jul 3, 2006)

There are two major things that would be necessary to cure some of the fundamental flaws in points systems.

The first is to move from the current partially transparent system to a fully transparent system by revealing the formula for setting point values.  The partially transparent system of revealing the resulting numbers but not the formula is the worst of all worlds because it creates both the motive and opportunity for developers to cheat by politicking the exchange company for inflated values for their weeks.  A non-transparent system lacks the motive and a fully transparent system lacks the opportunity.

The second is to move to publishing numbers only on the internet and junk the use of paper and ink.   The limitations of a paper and ink system of publishing values prevents a flexible or fair system of valuations, because space limitations lead to overaveraging (RCI Points saying a mid-August week 33 at the beach has the same value as a late October week 43, for example, is just nuts) and the cost of printing a new edition prevents frequent adjustments for ever changing supply and demand factors.  In the spring and fall, when week values are changing very gradually week by week, a fully electronic publication method would have the capacity to set individual values on each week, if necessary, or at least do them in smaller groups, perhaps two weeks together.








			
				boyblue said:
			
		

> Carolinian, actually one thing I've always agreed with you on is the uselessness of points partners.  I was more curious about points being used for trading timeshares.
> 
> Would you be for a properly implemented points program that used a uniform valuation system for week & points resorts?


----------



## geekette (Jul 3, 2006)

I don't think all point systems are the same, but things can be learned, good and bad, from every point system.


----------



## PerryM (Jul 3, 2006)

*I must be on vacation*

I know that I must be on vacation since I agree with Carolinian!

•	The definitions needed to come up with the points per day at each resort must be disclosed!

•	The points calendar for each resort should only be available on the internet and if someone needs a hard copy they can pay $5 to RCI to print it and send it

Of course I’d base the points on the rack rental rates but RCI could use anything that applies universally like MF’s per square foot or the Square Footage times a point value like 4=Gold Crown, 3=Silver Crown, 2=Bronze Crown (or whatever RCI calls it today), 1 = non rated.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Jul 3, 2006)

Seasons are more important than Gold and Silver Crown.  I would rather stay in a ski resort that is SC any day during ski season than a GC in the same area during summer.


----------



## wbtimesharer (Jul 3, 2006)

Good luck on getting this system up and running.  I for one don't have much of a problem with the current exchange companies.  We are in a capitalistic country and all companies exist to enrich their shareholders.  The best way to send a message to the companies who are charging too much is to stop using their services.  Since it appears that isn't happening, then I would hazard to guess that there isn't enough competition to force their prices down.  The old Supply and Demand theory strikes again.  You may be the competition that is needed to do just that.

I think that the major advantage the exchange companies have is their ease of use, safe transactions, and size to handle the volume that a good exchange company must have.  While it will take you time to get there, I wish you all the luck in the world and hope to be able to use your services in the future.


----------



## PerryM (Jul 3, 2006)

*I'm stumped*

Cindy,

Of course you are correct.  I'm trying to think of 3rd party things that could be used in a formula that would be published and is impartial to all resorts and seasons.

Beyond my preferred rental rates it becomes very hard to do.  MF's divided by square footage is a great starting place then seasonality needs to be added along with the rating of the unit.  I am stumped as how to do this though.


----------



## timeos2 (Jul 3, 2006)

rickandcindy23 said:
			
		

> Seasons are more important than Gold and Silver Crown.  I would rather stay in a ski resort that is SC any day during ski season than a GC in the same area during summer.



Seasons are covered in the points values assigned. Within a given season a SC gets more than a standard resort and a GC more than a SC.  There is still more value to a ranked resort even in off-season than an unranked resort would have.  But certainly even higher value in season.  A properly designed system accounts for those differences.


----------



## Carolinian (Jul 3, 2006)

The problem is that award rankings do not mean nearly as much to trade power as location does.  For example on the OBX, one of the Gold Crown resorts has the highest demand for the OBX while the other GC decidedly the lowest demand resort there.  The difference?  The high demand GC is right on the beach, while the low demand GC is in the woods behind the Wal-Mart where you have to drive to the beach.  Beachfront location is a FAR more important factor in demand than award status is.  Someone long involved in timeshare rentals on the OBX, the late Marvin Beard of Outer Banks Resort Rentals, has said that even though the owners of the GC behind the Wal-Mart, BIS-Kitty Hawk, would price their rentals $100 cheaper than the standard resorts on the beach, they could not rent them unless all of the beachfront standards were already rented.  Location is the main driver of demand and leaves award status in the dust unless location factors are similar.

RCI Points weighs award status in determining point value much much more than the average vacationer does in choosing a resort.  That is one of the major flaws in the RCI Points system.


----------



## Carolinian (Jul 3, 2006)

*Re: I'm stumped*

Without a doubt, size matters, but is still a lesser driver of demand than location.

Maintenance fees do NOT matter in trading power.  Should someone get higher trading power just because they own at a poorly managed resort that is jacking up fees to make up for not maintaining enough reserves?  The amount of the m/f has at least as much to do with the competence of the management as it does with the quality of the resort.  Similarly purchase price does not matter.  Is a blue week that someone overpaid a developer price for more desirable than a solid red week that someone got a good deal on with ebay?   I don't think so!







			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> Cindy,
> 
> Of course you are correct.  I'm trying to think of 3rd party things that could be used in a formula that would be published and is impartial to all resorts and seasons.
> 
> Beyond my preferred rental rates it becomes very hard to do.  MF's divided by square footage is a great starting place then seasonality needs to be added along with the rating of the unit.  I am stumped as how to do this though.


----------



## PerryM (Jul 3, 2006)

*Close but no cigar (thankfully)*

90% of all resorts must charge the same MF’s to all owners (same sized unit) regardless of season – state laws.  The few that don’t do allow different MFs for different seasons (same sized unit).

I can’t quote a study or a link where MF’s are related to each other.  E.g. The Westin Maui charges $1,750 MF for a 2BR and a WM charges $480 for Kihei Maui 2BR.  So, does this tell us anything about a WM exchanging into a Westin?  Or, a Westin exchanging into a WM?

My gut reaction is that there is a direct relationship to “quality” but has nothing to do with supply and demand.  As I said I think it’s a starting place AND it's a hard and fast number.

It could very well be that there is not enough of a relationship to use MF’s in determining trading power.  I don’t think we can dismiss MF without further research - my opinion.


----------



## boyblue (Jul 4, 2006)

Caro I'm stumped - I actually agree with your last three posts,

Referring to your post (#104) I totally agree with your assessment of the situation with points.  I would like to add that as far as there being no motivation to do the same thing in weeks, I'm not sure.  I tend to believe that if you're gonna skim from the semitransparent system why not skim from them both.  When the culture of dishonesty creeps into a company, it knows no bounds.

Your posts (#'s 111 & 112) are dead on.  Factoring in location in a more specific way (other than just state by state) would make the RCI Points system a whole lot better.  As you mentioned if it’s paperless it wouldn’t be that difficult to do or to make adjustments.

I wonder, can we do a poll in Ask RCI or is that something that Madge would have to initiate.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Jul 4, 2006)

Orlando should not be red 12 months of the year.  Not that RCI and II treat all times of year as red, but the sales gimmick is, "all Orlando weeks are red." 

I still think all Hawaii are red.  I would rather get into Hawaii than worry about Five Star or GC, because most of our experiences with Hawaiian resorts has been great.  Hawaii is a luxury, affordable to empty nesters that would rather travel in off season times.  There are plenty of us out there willing to stay in what some would consider off season, such as whale season.   

Our Gardens at West Maui is not Five Star but has all the qualities of that rating, except the whirlpool bathtub in the master.  I did not miss it on Maui.  We never saw a roach at Gardens, but Kona Hawaiian Village was overrun with roaches.  Our unit there was the worst I have seen anywhere.  Trash cans should not be under the sink.    I realize that others haven't had roach problems at KHV, but we certainly did.


----------



## Carolinian (Jul 4, 2006)

*Re: Close but no cigar (thankfully)*

Maintenance fees have a lot more to do with competence or lack of same by management over a lengthy period than they do with quality.  On the OBX, consistently the resort with the lowest m/f's is one of the best managed that keeps its deedback/foreclosures turned so there is no deadwood on the books.  On the other hand, one of the highest m/f's has consistently been a poorly managed resort with lots of deadwood, low reserves, and a huge backlog of maintenance and updating issues.  Quality can just as often be with the lower m/f.

And then, internationally, m/f's can often reflect the strength or weakness of a national currency rather than anything to do with timesharing.





			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> 90% of all resorts must charge the same MF’s to all owners (same sized unit) regardless of season – state laws.  The few that don’t do allow different MFs for different seasons (same sized unit).
> 
> I can’t quote a study or a link where MF’s are related to each other.  E.g. The Westin Maui charges $1,750 MF for a 2BR and a WM charges $480 for Kihei Maui 2BR.  So, does this tell us anything about a WM exchanging into a Westin?  Or, a Westin exchanging into a WM?
> 
> ...


----------



## Carolinian (Jul 4, 2006)

An exchange company can skim most any system if it is inclined.

What a non-transparent system stops is the developer cutting an under the table deal with an exchange company to give it higher numbers than it deserves.  If the numbers are public, this is a useful sales gimmick.  If they are not public, there is no advantage to their doing such a deal because they can't use nonpublished numbers to push sales.  Of course, a fully transparent system accomplishes the same thing.





			
				boyblue said:
			
		

> Caro I'm stumped - I actually agree with your last three posts,
> 
> Referring to your post (#104) I totally agree with your assessment of the situation with points.  I would like to add that as far as there being no motivation to do the same thing in weeks, I'm not sure.  I tend to believe that if you're gonna skim from the semitransparent system why not skim from them both.  When the culture of dishonesty creeps into a company, it knows no bounds.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dave M (Jul 4, 2006)

boyblue said:
			
		

> ...can we do a poll in Ask RCI....


If you want to do an informal poll, you can start a thread here in the Exchanging forum. You cannot start such a thread in the Ask RCI forum.

This software supports polls. It's possible that after we move to a dedicated server (soon), we might enable such polls.


----------



## DebBrown (Jul 4, 2006)

Wow!  I just found this thread and you Tuggers have some great ideas.  I do think, however, that it would be hard to compete in this industry.  The average non-Tugger is not likely to move away from the big two.

Mike, my concern for you is that you have so much experience with II.  You will have a hard time thinking outside the box.  Your ideas do not seem novel or interesting.  It is the TUG members contributing all the worthwhile ideas.

Personally, I like II and the week exchange.  I've been doing this for years and the fun part is trading up - using a low-end exchange or bonus week to pull something really good.  That's the game that got me hooked in the first place.  Fairness is fine but not necessarily fun. LOL!

Deb


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Jul 4, 2006)

*Re: Close but no cigar (thankfully)*



			
				Carolinian said:
			
		

> Maintenance fees have a lot more to do with competence or lack of same by management over a lengthy period than they do with quality.  On the OBX, consistently the resort with the lowest m/f's is one of the best managed that keeps its deedback/foreclosures turned so there is no deadwood on the books.  On the other hand, one of the highest m/f's has consistently been a poorly managed resort with lots of deadwood, low reserves, and a huge backlog of maintenance and updating issues.  Quality can just as often be with the lower m/f.
> 
> And then, internationally, m/f's can often reflect the strength or weakness of a national currency rather than anything to do with timesharing.


Yep.  If you can just raise fees, it's often easier to do that than to increase efficiency.  Doing things such as reviewing alternatives approaches, dealing with inefficient employees, etc. involves real work.  Who wants to do that when you can just raise rates??


----------



## Carolinian (Jul 5, 2006)

Australia/New Zealand is a good example of where there is active competition between four exchange companies, two independents and the two big US-based companies, but if you want to exchange in there, you are much more likely to find the exchange you want with one of the independents.

RCI's recent behavior on many fronts is certainly creating fertile ground for a challenge here.  The big hurdle is getting the information out to the average exchanger, and that is going to take establishment of good working relationships with HOA's.





			
				DebBrown said:
			
		

> Wow!  I just found this thread and you Tuggers have some great ideas.  I do think, however, that it would be hard to compete in this industry.  The average non-Tugger is not likely to move away from the big two.
> 
> Mike, my concern for you is that you have so much experience with II.  You will have a hard time thinking outside the box.  Your ideas do not seem novel or interesting.  It is the TUG members contributing all the worthwhile ideas.
> 
> ...


----------



## BocaBum99 (Jul 5, 2006)

I find it difficult to believe that information about how to make an effective exchange will diffuse to the general timesharing public before information about the great deals available on the resale market presents itself broadly.  After all, a price on a website is something a person can see.  Trading power is abstract.

There is tremendous apathy amongst large numbers of timeshare owners.  I think the underserved market is NOT for timeshare exchange, but for timeshare rentals.

Go to an HOA or an average timeshare owner and tell them you have yet another way to exchange your week and the likely response will be a yawn.  Tell them that you will list their week and be able to recoup most of their expenses and maybe even provide a bit of a profit and that may get their attention.

This is especially true for people who own prime weeks and have traded down or let their weeks go unoccupied for years.

The biggest problem for creating a timeshare exchange is that you can't even begin exchanging until you have a ton of weeks on deposit.  If you start a rental business, all you need is ONE week and you can list it for available to ANY person who wants to go on vacation.


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## Simoncc (Jul 5, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> I think the underserved market is NOT for timeshare exchange, but for timeshare rentals.
> 
> Go to an HOA or an average timeshare owner and tell them you have yet another way to exchange your week and the likely response will be a yawn.  Tell them that you will list their week and be able to recoup most of their expenses and maybe even provide a bit of a profit and that may get their attention.



That's the way I would go as well. No need for independent points/trading power valuations as each owner and/or resort can set their own asking price. 

If the scheme was to quickly expand beyond the existing Redweek type operation it would need to provide an incentive to resorts who market the scheme to owners.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2006)

*Me too*

My dream system allows for rentals too!  You can deposit your week and specify that it can ONLY/OR be rented and you would supply cash rental price.  This cash rental price is less than or equal to the rental Rack Rate – that’s up to you.

However, ONLY folks in the system can rent – no renting to the general public.  If you deposited a unit with a rental Rack Rate of $3,000 and the Cash rental rate for a unit is $3,000 or less you can rent it.  That amount is kept in your files and you must deposit more to rent for cash.

If you don’t rent, the amount you have deposited “rolls forward” indefinitely so you could build up a reserve to use for cash rentals.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 5, 2006)

*Re: Me too*



			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> My dream system allows for rentals too!  You can deposit your week and specify that it can ONLY/OR be rented and you would supply cash rental price.  This cash rental price is less than or equal to the rental Rack Rate – that’s up to you.
> 
> However, ONLY folks in the system can rent – no renting to the general public.  If you deposited a unit with a rental Rack Rate of $3,000 and the Cash rental rate for a unit is $3,000 or less you can rent it.  That amount is kept in your files and you must deposit more to rent for cash.
> 
> If you don’t rent, the amount you have deposited “rolls forward” indefinitely so you could build up a reserve to use for cash rentals.



I like the resortquest model.  There, you buy condos or houses and have resortquest manage the unit, the hospitality and the rental program.  They charge 35% commission.  And, owners get a 50% discount on rental listings of other resortquest properties.

Does this qualify as the ideal point system?  Cash is used, you can exchange for any property in the system by using that currency.  Only owners get the benefit.  The market sets the point value.  Owners get specific benefits.

To me, that's the ideal exchange model.  A rental exchange model.  I might create it.  The owner discount might be a bit lower as will be the commission.  And, the resorts will do hospitality and unit management.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2006)

*I was robbed*

BB,

Way to hurt a guy - they stole my system!  

I'll look into how close they match my specks.  Thanks for the reference.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 5, 2006)

*Re: I was robbed*



			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> BB,
> 
> Way to hurt a guy - they stole my system!
> 
> I'll look into how close they match my specks.  Thanks for the reference.



I forgot to mention, the 35% commission does NOT include the management fees.  Those are separate.  You must pay housekeeping and put $$$ in reserve for utilities, lawn maintenance, linens and towels, etc.  Those are fixed costs that also come out of your take.

I agree it's a good system.  And, they can market the properties and create a brand and they have relationships with other retailres to move product.  For instance, Hotels.com offers resortquest managed properties.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 5, 2006)

*Re: I was robbed*



			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> I forgot to mention, the 35% commission does NOT include the management fees.  Those are separate.  You must pay housekeeping and put $$$ in reserve for utilities, lawn maintenance, linens and towels, etc.  Those are fixed costs that also come out of your take.
> 
> I agree it's a good system.  And, they can market the properties and create a brand and they have relationships with other retailres to move product.  For instance, Hotels.com offers resortquest managed properties.



Oh yeah, you can use or rent your condo/house yourself as well.  It really is a good model.

In my opinion, it is way better than the condo hotel business model.

By the way, did you know that the Florida real estate market has tanked?  The peak was last summer, especially the condo market.  I wouldn't rely on zillow to value your property.  It is a lagging indicator since it doesn't accurately reflect the current state of the market.


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## Carolinian (Jul 5, 2006)

I think you overestimate the appeal of renting.  The Outer Banks has had a local timeshare rental/resale agency, Outer Banks Resort Rentals, about as long as there has been timesharing on the OBX. The late Marvin Beard did a great job with national advertising for his business, and it is now being ably run by his successor,  Rhonda Williams.  If you want to rent a week, particularly in high season, they can generally get it rented for you.  They advertise in HOA newsletters, and are generally known to most OBX timesharers.  But interest in rental is far below that in exchange, and together they are far below owning to use.





			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> I find it difficult to believe that information about how to make an effective exchange will diffuse to the general timesharing public before information about the great deals available on the resale market presents itself broadly.  After all, a price on a website is something a person can see.  Trading power is abstract.
> 
> There is tremendous apathy amongst large numbers of timeshare owners.  I think the underserved market is NOT for timeshare exchange, but for timeshare rentals.
> 
> ...


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2006)

*Zillow me this*

BB,

We’re in Maui right now and in the Ka’anapali area prices are up 35% since last year this time.  Zillow is spot on here (in terms of what local realtors AND the Maui board of realtors are claiming too).  I’ll look at Florida and report back in 2 weeks.

Most condos here have doubled in 2 years here - no end to the growth - still cheaper than S. California.

This week we are at the Sands of Kahana and a 2BR OV 1,500 sq ft unit sells for $900,000.  2 years ago $450,000, 2 years before that $225,000.  The timeshare sold has, of course, broken even (if lucky) in the mean time. (Developer sales)


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## funtime (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Start opening up the market*

Good luck with your timeshare company.  However, taking advice from tuggers may be counter productive.  Most threads emphasized fine tuning points vs weeks for companies that have thousands -- if not millions -- of exchanges a year and by folks that are in the top 1% of knowledge re timeshares.  You need to figure out how to bring new customers in, not just siphon off customers from rci or II.  Also, look to the smaller exchange companies and see what they do right as they are your true comparators.
My ideas:
   A telephone counselor -- at least one -- is a must.  Someone to be helpful and cheerlead a really great trade.  You need to make your new customers feel like they are part of a new family and you cannot do it merely online. Right now you seem to feel that there is a groundswell of folks that will flock to your company  and go on the internet and do their ownt rades for a 50 trade and I think that is a false assumption.   
   Tap into groups or resources that should be into timesharing but may not be such as AARP - consider advertising in their magazine for example or writing an article for their magazine;
   $50 for an exchange is too low if you want to stay in business; consider 69 for domestic red exchanges and $39 for shoulder seasons - april, may, september and october.  The market for shoulder season needs to be untapped with new folks to the system;
    Discourage last minute deposits - HTSE requires 90 days in advance and a red week.  You need to protect yourself against last minute deposits.
    Have a frequent exchange card -- exchange three weeks and the fourth is free.
    Make the website people friendly but also have a people friendly telephone counselor as well.  Good luck!  Funtime


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## akbmusic (Jul 16, 2006)

Is having a business that you can only access via the internet a wise move? In the past few weeks, both the RCI and II sites have been down on more than one occasion. Sometimes, my computer crashes too!  
I really don't want to put in personal info like credit card numbers... on a computer that is more "public", like at an internet cafe or library (and I work at a library!)  I would not be pleased if I was ready to plan my vacation and couldn't because a web site was inacessible. Computers are not infallible.
Just a thought.


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## TUGBrian (Jul 16, 2006)

If TUG were to implement a new form of exchange program...it would likely be free for all TUG members.

Unbiased Exchange Community....nice ring to it...


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## Amy (Aug 8, 2006)

I just got around to reading this thread, and I'm interested in learning if there are any updates?


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