# 2012 Maintenance Fee



## ded4025 (Sep 5, 2011)

I was reading past threads about when the 2011 MF bills were mailed out, some people were shocked at how much their resort MF's went up.

Bills should be out next month for 2012, what is the feel for this year.  Modest increase or more of the 20% or more increases like last year?


----------



## LisaRex (Sep 5, 2011)

Methinks you're in the wrong thread.  Starwood usually sends its MF invoices out in December. 

And my vote is 10% increase.


----------



## ded4025 (Sep 5, 2011)

Is it Marriott that is mailed in October?


----------



## LisaRex (Sep 5, 2011)

Upon reviewing the MF thread in the sticky section, it appears Starwood does send out some of the MF invoices in October.  So I apologize for the misinformation.


----------



## woodyd70 (Sep 5, 2011)

I am hopeful that maintenance fees will relax a bit for the upcoming year.  I really don't have any fact to base my thoughts on, but my feel is that maintenance fees throughout the SVN jumped for many reasons, none the least was that so many folks have been forclosed on or have walked away from their ownership, especially the ones that owed maintenance fees in conjunction with a mortgage.  This collectively affected many of the HOA's in the industry as a whole, as well as the SVN resorts.  My understanding is that when folks walk away, the maintenance fees are picked up by the remaining owners via increases in Maintenance fees.  This past year, Bella phase of SVV actually experienced a decrease in Maintenance fee, in great part due to many of the inexpensive weeks being picked up on the resale market, but even more so by Starwood focusing on selling their "returned" inventory driving sales by allowing several of the other Sales sites to sell the inventory as well.  Starwood has not built any new inventory since the financial crisis in latter 2008, and has shown signs of excercising ROFR much more frequently signalling that available inventory to sell is becoming more important to them since they are not building new inventory.  My theory is that we may actually see Maintenance fees continue to drop at many of the properties, (at least some) due to Starwood focusing on re-selling much of their inventory and replacing the unpaid maintenance fees with new owners that have suffered much of the downturn in the economy unscathed and since credit requirements have tightened in "all" industries, especially Timeshare Developers.......the paper moving forward should be much more reliable, in turn making maintenance fees much more reliably paid by the fresher/newer owner base..........

Just my theory, we will see soon


----------



## SCUBAj (Oct 24, 2011)

*2012 MF Bill Making me Bitter*

Looking at the 2012 Budget for a 2BR SVV and it's funny where all the money goes:

2012 MFs: $828.15
Replacement Reserve: $183.73
Total Maintenance & Reserve Fees: $972.63

2012 MF Top 3 fees breakout:
Housekeeping & rooms: $119.29
Master Assn. Dues: $107.90
Bad Debt Expense: $101.60

Bad debt expense exceeds repairs & maintenance and utilities, which I would ordinarily believe should be the costliest items at a property. I find this a bit concerning.  

Also, I noted on the BOD agenda that there is a new 2012 delinquent MF collection policy.  Has anyone heard anything about this?


----------



## LisaRex (Oct 25, 2011)

In what phase do you own?  I own SVV Bella and haven't gotten my MF bill yet. 

To answer your question, yes, the delinquency rate is alarming to me.  What is especially alarming to me is how long the HOA (aka "Starwood") drags its feet before foreclosing.  At WKORV-N, they waited several years before finally taking action to foreclose on deadbeat owners.  That meant that we paying owners had to pick up their tab while getting absolutely nothing in return.  Meanwhile, Starwood was making out like a bandit. 

Think about it, if an owner doesn't pay his MFs, he's not allowed to use his week.  By the OA, Starwood gets control of all unbooked inventory at 90 days out, at which time they are free to rent it out without reimbursing the HOA one dime except possibly a modest housekeeping fee.  If things were fair, the HOA would take over that week on our behalf (because, after all, we PAID for that week), and rent it out to offset the costs of MFs.  In reality, Starwood gets control of it. We pay all the fees; they pocket all the rental income.   

Great system, huh?


----------



## pathways25 (Oct 25, 2011)

LisaRex said:


> Think about it, if an owner doesn't pay his MFs, he's not allowed to use his week.  By the OA, Starwood gets control of all unbooked inventory at 90 days out, at which time they are free to rent it out without reimbursing the HOA one dime except possibly a modest housekeeping fee.  If things were fair, the HOA would take over that week on our behalf (because, after all, we PAID for that week), and rent it out to offset the costs of MFs.  In reality, Starwood gets control of it. We pay all the fees; they pocket all the rental income.
> 
> Great system, huh?



Where did you get this information?  Is this described anywhere in the governing documents?  I find it extremely difficult to believe that the HOA is not compensated in any way for inventory that Starwood rents out.


----------



## jarta (Oct 25, 2011)

"Great system, huh?"

The sarcasm is warrnted only if your description holds water.  Are you sure it does?

I also own at Bella.  This year the 2012 proposed budget shows a maintenance and reserve fee (excluding the SVN fee) of $972.63 for my 2-br non-lockoff.

The total operating expenses includes an amount of $1,732,711 for Bad debt (non-payment of assessments) out of total expenses of $14,124,625.  So, deadbeats at Bella cost me about $120.  Without the deadbeats, I'd be paying about $852 per year (without the SVN fee).  After Housekeeping & Rooms and Master Association Dues (for use of the SVV-wide amenities), the Bad Debt is the largest category of the yearly operating expenses. 

Who's the biggest enemy?  Starwood or your own neighbors?   ...   eom


----------



## blondietink (Oct 25, 2011)

We just got the proposed budget for SVV Bella Florida in the mail today.  Total Maintenance Reserve & Club Dues are as follows:

One Bedroom:  $576.36
Standard 2 Bedroom:  $1097.63
Premium Lock-off:  $1385.22


----------



## LisaRex (Oct 25, 2011)

pathways25 said:


> Where did you get this information?  Is this described anywhere in the governing documents?  I find it extremely difficult to believe that the HOA is not compensated in any way for inventory that Starwood rents out.



It's actually spelled out in the Owner's Agreement that Starwood gets control of all unbooked inventory at 90 days out.  It is also spelled out in the OA that Starwood's only obligation to the HOA for rentals is a nominal housekeeping charging, and that only applies if the rentals cause Starwood to hire additional staff.

Per your MF invoice, if you do not pay your MFs, you are not able to use your week. 

Connect the dots.

Most telling, is that there is no line item on the asset section of the Balance sheet where it lists rental income.


----------



## tschwa2 (Oct 25, 2011)

*Sheraton Broadway Palmetto 2 bedroom*

SBP Palmetto dedicated 2 bedroom
incuding tax no ARDA no SVN
2012 $778.50
2011 $674.73
2010 $708.45


----------



## jarta (Oct 25, 2011)

LisaRex said:


> It's actually spelled out in the Owner's Agreement that Starwood gets control of all unbooked inventory at 90 days out.  It is also spelled out in the OA that Starwood's only obligation to the HOA for rentals is a nominal housekeeping charging, and that only applies if the rentals cause Starwood to hire additional staff.
> 
> Per your MF invoice, if you do not pay your MFs, you are not able to use your week.
> 
> ...



I sure don't understand where you get your information.  Seriously, do you make it up?

I'm looking at the 2012 proposed budget mailed to me for Bella.  Line 4 under Revenues is "Club Rental Revenue."  The amount listed in the proposed budget is $385,816.   ...   eom


----------



## LisaRex (Oct 25, 2011)

I don't Bella's information yet, but WKORV-N's information has this for 2011:

"Uncollectible Accounts" $1,072,321
"Club Rental Revenue": $96,510

So that only leaves the owners holding the bag for $975,811.  In Hawaii, where many weeks the resort was sold out. Uh huh. 

BTW, the amount was so low that when we discussed the budget last year, a poster (not me) wondered if "Club Rental Revenue" was the amount collected from craftsmen setting up their stands.


----------



## Ken555 (Oct 25, 2011)

It would be helpful if the budget listed revenue more transparency. There's obviously confusion amongst owners what the club revenue means, so whomever owns at Bella...ask!


----------



## jarta (Oct 25, 2011)

LisaRex,   ...   "BTW, the amount was so low that when we discussed the budget last year, a poster (not me) wondered if "Club Rental Revenue" was the amount collected from craftsmen setting up their stands."

Repeating absurdities doesn't make them truths.  The "Club" is the Starwood reservation system last time I read the Bella Declaration of Condominium.

""Uncollectible Accounts" $1,072,321
"Club Rental Revenue": $96,510

So that only leaves the owners holding the bag for $975,811. In Hawaii, where many weeks the resort was sold out. Uh huh."

If for many (I'd say most) weeks WKROV is sold out - reserved by II traders of deposited SDO and SBP weeks, StarOption SVN traders and the mere 90%+ WKORV owners who pay their MF and are forced by the high MF to go there (or rent - starting long before 90 days) by the time 6 months comes along,  where's that huge potential revenue stream coming from at 90 days from arrival?  You can't sqeeze blood from a turnip!

Same for my Bella.  Summer weeks are nearly always sold out rather early but how many grandpas and grandmas are looking on short notice for a getaway to visit Mickey and Minnie during school weeks in October and November?

Same for Harborside.  Usually jam-packed in Platinum and Summer weeks; more rooms available during hurricane season.  But, really, who wants to go to Harborside during hurricane season except those with leftover StarOptions or II deposits who can't get in during Summer or Platinum season?

The dollar signs you see Starwood stealing are figments of an unreal assumption that it's easy to rent out any timeshare resort 100% in off-season.  Hotels can't do it; why do you feel it is so easy for timeshares to do it?

SBP in November - April?  Brrrrr!  SDO in mid-Summer?  Yikes!  I'd rather be elsewhere for a week.   ...   eom


----------



## blondietink (Oct 25, 2011)

We have stayed in our Bella unti at SVV in August, April and October (2 times).  April it was packed with spring break families and Europeans.  October it has been packed with Europeans.  Late August it is packed with northern US families and Europeans.  Parking has been an issue each and every time we have stayed there and we have been in several different buildings.  Pool areas have been so full you could not find a lounger at any of the pools.  So, this might lead one to believe that if people are not using their weeks due to not paying their dues/maintenance, SVV is renting them out to others and making some kind of profit.  $96,000 of club rental revenue doesn't seem like much to me considering over one million dollars of uncollectable accounts.  

This year we are staying the first week of December and I'll report on how full it is.  

We have checked into staying at SBP next February (I know BRRR, but they have sun and we don't) and there is a wide variety of units open then as per the spg.com website.  I know SBP is popular with the snowbirds who love to golf.


----------



## PamMo (Oct 25, 2011)

Jarta, I often agree with your posts, but I think LisaRex (and other owners at WKORV) have a legitimate beef with such low reimbursement levels from Starwood for rentals at their home resorts. Owners must pay to make up the weekly maintenance fees from delinquent owners, but get reimbursed minimal "housekeeping fees" when Starwood rents the villas? With over $96k in housekeeping fee payments to owners - that means a LOT of weeks were rented and Starwood is keeping the bulk of the income. Sort of double/triple dipping at the trough. Owners pay their own MF's, cover delinquent owners' MF's, and then Starwood gets the income from units they basically get for free? It's all in the ownership agreement, so it is apparently entirely legal and above board, but still a raw deal for the steady, diligent, dependable owners who end up paying their fair share, and much more, to help the corporate bottom line. "It's just business" rings hollow these days. Loyalty goes both ways.


----------



## bobpark56 (Oct 25, 2011)

WSJ Grande Vista owners were just notified to expect a $200 or so reduction in their maintenance fees for 2012...varying +/- depending on the unit they own.


----------



## jarta (Oct 25, 2011)

PamMo,   ...   "I think LisaRex (and other owners at WKORV) have a legitimate beef with such low reimbursement levels from Starwood for rentals at their home resorts."

What is the such low reimbursement level?

Do you have any idea how many rentals of non-Starwood owned weeks there are each year at WKORV, how much the total money paid by those renters is (owners, SVN traders and II traders don't pay rent) and what the reimbursement level to the resort's association per rental dollar collected on non-Starwood owned weeks is?

How much is Starwood collecting in rent for units it does not own?  At least for Bella, I know how much the association thinks it will get as rental income.  It's right on line 4 in the 2012 proposed operating budget I was mailed.  (My initial response was triggered by LisaRex's assertion that there was no line item for rent.  There certainly is.) 

Nice theory.  Could be right.  Could be mere erroneous speculation fueled by anti-Starwood bias.  I'd prefer some facts, rather than speculation presented as facts.    ...   eom


----------



## PamMo (Oct 26, 2011)

jarta, in post #14, the WKORV club rental revenue is listed as $96,510. If the $975,811 delinquency bill charged to paying owners (in higher MF's) essentially goes into the pocket of Starwood as extra rental inventory, and Starwood only has to reimburse owners nominal housekeeping fees - that certainly doesn't build goodwill with owners. Hopefully we can get clarification on exactly what rental revenue is, but more importantly, get those delinquent units' MF's off the backs of other owners paying the bills.


----------



## pathways25 (Oct 26, 2011)

LisaRex said:


> It's actually spelled out in the Owner's Agreement that Starwood gets control of all unbooked inventory at 90 days out.  It is also spelled out in the OA that Starwood's only obligation to the HOA for rentals is a nominal housekeeping charging, and that only applies if the rentals cause Starwood to hire additional staff.
> 
> Per your MF invoice, if you do not pay your MFs, you are not able to use your week.
> 
> ...



Is the Owner's Agreement published somewhere or is it in the governing docs?  If it's in the governing docs, can you point out what page it's on?  The governing docs are mostly scanned and are thus not searchable.

I would still like to see for myself any document which states that Starwood can rent out unowned inventory for no or token compensation to the HOA.


----------



## LisaRex (Oct 26, 2011)

pathways25 said:


> I would still like to see for myself any document which states that Starwood can rent out unowned inventory for no or token compensation to the HOA.



You can request a copy of it via MSC.com.


----------



## LisaRex (Oct 26, 2011)

Last year, we WKORV-N owners were stuck with nearly a million bucks in uncollected revenue.  For covering those delinquencies, we got NOTHING, not even a pro rata portion of StarOptions.  A truly independent HOA would bend over backwards to recoup that amount, including offering owners the opportunity to rent these weeks for the cost of MFs, including setting up a website to clearance out those weeks for the cost of MFs.  A truly independent HOA would foreclose IMMEDIATELY on deadbeat owners and not wait three years before taking action. 

HOAs were created to represent and protect the owners.  Starwood HOAs  do not.  They are pawns of the developer.  And that's why they crafted the rules to make it nearly impossible for anyone other than a hand-picked representative to get on the Board. In fact, before a Tugger pressed them on it, they wouldn't even list non-Starwood picked nominees on the ballot.  Why are they so insistent on controlling the HOA? 

If you were a representative on an HOA board and were faced with a MILLION dollars in uncollected funds, wouldn't you work your tail off to take action?   WKORV-N's meetings last, what, 60 minutes?  That shows you how seriously they take their jobs and how dedicated they are to protecting the owners.  I've run PTA meetings that have lasted longer. 

The ongoing problem with hotel-branded timeshares such as Starwood is that there is a clear conflict of interest between the developer and the HOA.  Why would a developer-run HOA bend over backwards to try and rent out villas to make the owners whole, when it's to Starwood's benefit to allow these rooms to go unbooked so that they can rent them out for nearly 100% profit?


----------



## jarta (Oct 26, 2011)

LisaRex,  ...   Your tirade doesn't give pathways the exact language.

However, even if what you say is true (I don't think it is) your $1M of "stolen" revenue assumes:

1.  That during the year every unit is filled for every week.

2.  That every delinquent owner's room is rented, not filled by other owners, II traders or StarOption traders who finally are finding easier occupancy at WKORV due to the lockout weeks.

3.  That as of 90 days from arrival, not one lockout week had been filled by other owners, II traders or StarOption traders (who pay no rent) *and* not one single room had been rented earlier to anyone by the resort itself or by Starwood as manager.

4.  Within the 90 day window, Starwood rents every single lockout week for the amount of the delinquent assessment.

Not part of your assumption (but part of mine) is that any lockout weeks not filled by owners in the float season looking for the best week in season, II traders, StarOption traders or previous attempts to rent will be the lowest demand weeks and the hardest to rent out on such short notice.

(As an aside, where are the Starwood ads offering to rent the units at the resorts?  The only places I can find any ads at all are on the SPG and MyStarCentral web sites.  Neither site offers special deals only for stays within 90 days at the SVO resorts which would indicate a big push to fill those million dollars worth of rooms (per resort?) and line Starwood's pockets.  Finally, wouldn't Starwood find pretty stiff price competition from the rental companies and individual owners who start discounting those lowest demand weeks at all Hawaii resorts, not just WKORV, as the check in day approaches?)

I think your numbers are all fantasies.   ...   eom


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 26, 2011)

Wouldn't it be nice if Starwood would disclose that info., so everything would be above board and transparent to owners?   But then of course, we'd know exactly how much money Starwood is siphoning off, so I doubt if that will ever happen.


----------



## jarta (Oct 26, 2011)

DeniseM,   ...   "of course, we'd know exactly how much money Starwood is siphoning off"

"The ongoing problem with hotel-branded timeshares such as Starwood is that there is a clear conflict of interest between the developer and the HOA. Why would a developer-run HOA bend over backwards to try and rent out villas to make the owners whole, when it's to Starwood's benefit to allow these rooms to go unbooked so that they can rent them out for nearly 100% profit?"

Better yet if a slanderous Internet accusation of theft of $1M through self-dealing by a manager/developer in conjunction with a knowing fiduciary violation by the HOA board made on TUG had some factual basis that showed the accusation is not fantasy before it is made - with our TUG Moderator now chiming in with official support for the slander on the basis, not that the statement is true, but that any false accusations by the slanderer would be the fault of the entity slandered.

It doesn't work that way.  "Sorry, but if I only knew" is not a defense to a false accusation of theft of $1M.   ...   eom


----------



## LisaRex (Oct 26, 2011)

I was wrong.  Starwood gets inventory at 60 days out.  Here is the exact language from the OA at WKORV-N:



> The Developer has the right to reserve any Use Periods that, for any reason, are not reserved as of sixty (60) days before the Check-In Day. The Developer may keep the rent but must reimburse the Association for any resulting increase in expenses for housekeeping expenses for housekeeping services in excess of the amount allocated for those services in the assessment for maintenance for the use or rental.



But, really I'm not all that interested if and how Starwood takes advantage of their 60 day window of opportunity.  I'm sure they do all they can to make as much as they can -- as would I. What I am more interested in is why the HOA isn't taking control of every single night that we owners pay for on behalf of deadbeat owners, and trying to rent it out, to try and make the owners whole?  Given that SPG.com lists the rack rate of a studio during low season at over $400/night, I have no doubt that we'd be able to get rid of this unused inventory for $350/night for a 2 bdrm villa.   Heck, at $500/night, which is a steal compared to the $800+ that Starwood is asking, they'd only have to sell 70% of the rooms to make us whole.   

Can you imagine if one of the smaller, non-hotel timeshares had a million bucks in uncollected revenue?  Do you think that they'd just shrug their shoulders and let those villas sit empty?  Would they allow a third party to just come in and scoop up all unbooked inventory at the 60 day window? Hell, no, they wouldn't.


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 26, 2011)

> Better yet if a *slanderous* Internet accusation of theft of $1M through self-dealing by a manager/developer in conjunction with a knowing fiduciary violation by the HOA board made on TUG had some factual basis that showed the accusation is not fantasy before it is made - with our TUG Moderator now chiming in with official support for the *slander* on the basis, not that the statement is true, but that any *false accusations by the slanderer* would be the fault of the entity *slandered*.



Jarta - You are a HOOT!  :hysterical: 

When should I expect the subpoena?  I want to look nice and post pictures on TUG!


----------



## LisaRex (Oct 26, 2011)

jarta said:


> It doesn't work that way.  "Sorry, but if I only knew" is not a defense to a false accusation of theft of $1M.   ...   eom



First of all, you don't scare me with your claims of slander. 

Second of all, it's not theft. Starwood is playing by the rules they created.  At 60 days, they get control of all unbooked inventory and can pocket the rent. _It's right there in the Owner's Agreement._ 

But that doesn't mean that the HOA has to just sit there and do nothing.  Two things that they could, and would do if they truly represented the OWNERS, is: 1) foreclose as soon as they are legally allowed to on deadbeat owners; and 2) take control of inventory that the HOA paid for on behalf of those deadbeat owners, and rent out what they can.


----------



## YYJMSP (Oct 26, 2011)

LisaRex said:


> 2) take control of inventory that the HOA paid for on behalf of those deadbeat owners, and rent out what they can.



How would we identify the delinquent units in the year in which they occur, allowing for the ownership to be rented out to our benefit?  We don't know who's not going to pay their MFs in the current year...

Isn't the problem that we're making up the shortfall the year after it's already occurred, basically leaving the units to fall in to the "not used before 60 days" pool for SVO's benefit.


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 26, 2011)

Since maintenance fees are due in early January - by Feb. 1 - it should be clear who has paid and who hasn't, for the current year.  That would give the HOA 11 mos. to rent the delinquent weeks.


----------



## jarta (Oct 26, 2011)

Denise,   ...   "When should I expect the subpoena?"

You have nothing to fear from me unless you slander me personally on TUG.  

That hasn't happened yet.  It's still OK to answer the doorbell.  lol!

I'm not from Starwood or connected in any way to Starwood - except that I happen to own 7 weeks of Starwood timeshares and think Starwood runs pretty nice timeshare places to vacation.  I also own 2 weeks at FS Aviara (next up 11/5-11/12) and like it there, too.

If it ever does happen, however, you will certainly have something to fear.      ...   eom


----------



## YYJMSP (Oct 26, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> Since maintenance fees are due in early January - by Feb. 1 - it should be clear who has paid and who hasn't, for the current year.  That would give the HOA 11 mos. to rent the delinquent weeks.



But owner's who have paid their MFs haven't necessarily made their bookings for the current year yet, so how do you determine which unit week the HOA should grab?

If the HOA starts grabbing in Feb, isn't that going to cause a potential availability issue for owners who want to come in the late fall/winter (i.e. just over 8 months later), since you'd be driving up the occupancy rate farther in advance?

Or are we thinking that the HOA would get dibs at 8 months out, after the owner's home resort priority period is over?


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 26, 2011)

YYJMSP said:


> Or are we thinking that the HOA would get dibs at 8 months out, after the owner's home resort priority period is over?



That would be a fair way to do it.


----------



## YYJMSP (Oct 26, 2011)

DeniseM said:


> That would be a fair way to do it.



Essentially, an owner loses their home resort priority if they don't pay their MFs on time.  I think that's quite reasonable.


Assuming the HOA has a count of non-paying owners by late-Feb, they would have immediate access to unit weeks up to late-Oct in the current year.  So they'd have decent rental values and likelihood of being rented, letting the HOA recapture most/all of the MFs.  A share of any excess goes back to the owner, kind of like if they'd gotten SVO to rent it out for them.


And at 90 days out, when it's a free-for-all anyways within SVN (anyone for any length of days), the HOA should be able to book anything they can get their hands on, up to the number of non-paid unit weeks.

That leaves the true leftovers for SVO at 60 days out, which is the way it really should be...


But what happens if the owner pays up?  This whole thing is based on the idea that the HOA is going to seize units and rent them, and not bother trying to collect from the original owner.


Too bad this is probably difficult (impossible?) to actually implement.


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 26, 2011)

YYJMSP said:


> But what happens if the owner pays up?



Then they would be able to choose from whatever dates are left to reserve - just like they do now, and one week would be removed from the rental pool.


----------



## zinger1457 (Oct 26, 2011)

If SVO only gets access to unbooked inventory at 60 days out I doubt they are getting access to a lot of days/weeks to rent.  I had some unused staroptions for 2011 and was looking at getting 3 days at WKV or Westin Missions Hills during the end of the gold season, October thru the first week of December.  I started looking at about 90 days out and there was very little available.  A few single days here and there, nothing at Westin Mission Hills during the dates I wanted and WKV only had one room available for 3 consecutive days in November that I took.


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 26, 2011)

Even though the end of the year is off-season, the resorts fill up, because all the procrastinators are making their reservations so they don't lose their week.


----------



## GregT (Oct 26, 2011)

Can we change the title of this thread to anything other than _2012 Maintenance Fee_?

I'd hate for someone to open this thread, thinking they would learn something that pertained to 2012 Maintenance Fees.  

Thanks very much,

Greg


LisaRex -- btw, I'm really late responding, but I wanted you know that I appreciated your reference somewhere on this board to "money for nothing and chicks for free".   Great song -- thx!


----------



## jarta (Oct 26, 2011)

YYJMSP,   ...   I have a question for you (or anyone else who has an answer to this question).

At 60 days from arrival, less than a full week StarOption reservations may be made.  Also, restricted StarOptions can only be used for a reservation made within 60 days of arrival.

If all the unreserved weeks are released to Starwood for rentals at 60 days from arrival and Starwood rents all that time out (thus cheating the HOA of recoupment of any delinquencies), .................

how are reservations ever made with restricted StarOptions or for less than full week reservations?  I'd be interested in your answer.   ...   eom


----------



## YYJMSP (Oct 26, 2011)

jarta said:


> YYJMSP,   ...   I have a question for you (or anyone else who has an answer to this question).
> 
> At 60 days from arrival, less than a full week StarOption reservations may be made.  Also, restricted StarOptions can only be used for a reservation made within 60 days of arrival.
> 
> ...



Obviously  Starwood (timeshare and hotel side) doesn't take all available inventory at 60 days out, otherwise the properties would be 100% occupied at all times.

I don't think I suggested that it did -- I tried to stay out of that part of the conversation.  I personally agree with whoever said that we don't have enough information to render an accurate opinion.

On the other hand, since we're talking theoretically, I offered my 2bits when the discussion got steered towards how the HOA could rent out units to recover unpaid MFs, etc.  Now if we just had some way of getting something like that implemented...


----------



## zinger1457 (Oct 26, 2011)

jarta said:


> At 60 days from arrival, less than a full week StarOption reservations may be made.  Also, restricted StarOptions can only be used for a reservation made within 60 days of arrival.



You can use staroptions for partial week reservations at 3 months from the day of arrival.


----------



## YYJMSP (Oct 26, 2011)

zinger1457 said:


> You can use staroptions for partial week reservations at 3 months from the day of arrival.



You can do a full week plus a partial week at 8 months out, correct?

As long as the arrival OR departure day is on a standard check-in/check-out day, the other can be whatever day you want...


----------



## jerseygirl (Oct 26, 2011)

The WSJ Hillside HOA did take a stab at renting delinquent weeks to owners in good standing this year.  It was successful enough that they've promised to do it again next year.


----------



## zinger1457 (Oct 26, 2011)

YYJMSP said:


> You can do a full week plus a partial week at 8 months out, correct?
> 
> As long as the arrival OR departure day is on a standard check-in/check-out day, the other can be whatever day you want...



Yes, if using staroptions for more than one week.  The 3 month window is when using staroptions for less than one week.


----------



## jarta (Oct 26, 2011)

Which all goes to indicate that ...

there is no million dollar pot of gold for Starwood to siphon off from the HOA by getting unrented weeks at 60 days before arrival.

The way a HOA protects it's right to recoup the delinquent MFs is to file a lien.  Once filed, that lien persists until the delinquency is paid by the owner, the owner gives the HOA a deed in lieu of foreclosure (and the resort finds a new owner) or the property is sold by the delinquent owner and the new owner pays the delinquency in full.   ...   eom


----------



## sungandjudy (Oct 26, 2011)

jarta said:


> 2.  That every delinquent owner's room is rented, not filled by other owners, II traders or StarOption traders who finally are finding easier occupancy at WKORV due to the lockout weeks.



Just a quick question.
If an owner defaults on MF, can that room or week be traded through II or SO? Or does it gets blacked out where people can't use them? (ie. sits empty?)


----------



## YYJMSP (Oct 27, 2011)

sungandjudy said:


> Just a quick question.
> If an owner defaults on MF, can that room or week be traded through II or SO? Or does it gets blacked out where people can't use them? (ie. sits empty?)



If the MFs are not paid, the owner can not use their reservation.  That would leave that unit week available to be exchanged/rented.

Looking at one of my home resort reservation confirmations, it just says "Please note that all fees associated with your ownership must be current prior to arrival".  The problem would be that the owner not paying might not be noticed until literally just prior to arrival, leaving it difficult to make the unit week available to someone else with no advance notice...

Another hole in the system    MFs not paid, unit week not rentable to recover, sitting there empty...


----------



## jarta (Oct 27, 2011)

YYJMSP,   ...   "Another hole in the system  MFs not paid, unit week not rentable to recover, sitting there empty..."

Another hole?  Who gets credit for the net rent?  Who can steal the net rent from the delinquent owner?  In FL, by statute, the managing entity (defined as both the HOA board and management) cannot keep the net rent.  The net rent belongs to the delinquent owner.  

If rented, the net rent from the week must be applied first to the MF delinquency and the overage credited to the account of the delinquent owner.

It's not easy to manage delinquencies.

Florida Revised Statutes, 721.13(6)(f)(1) and

http://www.gcglaw.com/resources/realestate/delinquency.html

"Where feasible, establishing or maintaining a good rental program can be an essential part of an association's delinquency strategy. However, care should be taken to ensure that the rental program allows the association the greatest possible benefit while ensuring that the delinquent owner is not rewarded for his or her delinquency. In some states, the law allows associations to use rental proceeds to offset delinquent fees and retain any residual proceeds. *In those states where the residual must accrue to the delinquent owner, extras such as delinquency fees, advertising and extra housekeeping can sometimes be added to the account to minimize the residual amount. Otherwise, the delinquent owner might be rewarded with a substantial check and see no reason to ever pay maintenance fees*."


----------



## PamMo (Oct 27, 2011)

It seems that renting units to pay the delinquent MF's, _plus late fees_, is exactly what should be done. Prime weeks are reserved a year out - MF's are due after most of those prime weeks are gone (in Hawaii at least), so it wouldn't change the dynamics of owner reservations much. Rentals would help put a dent in the million dollar charge to other WKORV owners who have to make up for delinquent accounts. I don't think owners at a resort who are paying more than their fair share of MF's, owe it to SVN to have those weeks available to other Starwood owners or II traders without any compensation. _Could_ rentals be beneficial to owners who are behind in payments? Sure, but the HOA should be vigorously clearing the books of chronic delinquencies. I'm sure there are owners in good standing at the resort who would love to have another unit. Let owners quit claim their deeds to the HOA, and have a lottery for owners who want another unit. Every delinquent 2BR unit taken over by a paying owner lowers the deficit by at least $2,000.

I also agree with Greg - this topic has veered way off of 2012 MF's.


----------



## gregb (Oct 27, 2011)

Last communications from HOA for WKORVN I believe said delinquency was less than 5%.  Also, there should be a surplus from the rebate of taxes.  So when we see our 2012 MF, they should be lower.

One comment about the HOA renting out units that are delinquent.  The HOA is not in the rental business.  It would seem to me that asking the HOA to setup a rental plan would only make sense if delinquencies are running quite high.  On the other hand, *wood is setup to do rentals.  So the HOA could/should work with *wood to try to rent out delinquent units.  

If I am not mistaken, once your MF are delinquent, you lose access to your unit for that year.  If you try to pay them later, there is no guarantee that you will get access in that year.  So once mid February comes around, the HOA should have a count of the number of units they can rent out (usually through *wood).  They don't have to wait until the 60 day window.

Here is an interesting question:  If the HOA rents out a delinquent unit for a week, how does it determine which of the many delinquent units gets credit for the rental credit (if any)?  These kinds of problems crop up anytime you have floating reservation programs.

Greg


----------



## jdh0721 (Nov 2, 2011)

*My MFs*

I received my maintenance fee bill today from the Sheraton Broadway Plantation - Another 10% increase over last year.  This now brings the 4 year total to a nearly incomprehensible 66% increase.  The annual maintenance fees are now more than 1/8 of the original purchase price.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Nov 2, 2011)

jdh0721 said:


> I received my maintenance fee bill today from the Sheraton Broadway Plantation - Another 10% increase over last year.  This now brings the 4 year total to a nearly incomprehensible 66% increase.  The annual maintenance fees are now more than 1/8 of the original purchase price.



I understand, believe me.  Our fees are up more than 10%, it's actually more like 14% AGAIN this year on SBP 2 bedrooms.  I am sick about it.   Starwood, give us a REASON, instead of sending a bill with absolutely no explantation.  I am disgusted with Starwood.  

Welcome to TUG.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Nov 3, 2011)

Starwood alone is at fault for the delinquent fees.  The developers don't even care about your credit rating.  They just give timeshare loans to anyone who likes the product, at outrageous rates.  Then the owner defaults on the loan and the MF's, because they have BAD CREDIT and would naturally do that.  It's their character to default.  So don't sell timeshares to deadbeats!  

GEEZ, what is wrong with this picture?


----------



## siesta (Nov 3, 2011)

Jarta-

FYI, it would be libel ... not slander.

For those that arent attorneys, slander is typically spoken defamation, whereas libel is written or published words/pictures in a long lasting or permanent medium.

The line got a little fuzzy with the Internet and blogs, but most judges will adhere to the "long lasting" part of the definition and therefore qualify it as Internet libel as opposed to slander.


----------



## maggiesmom (Nov 21, 2011)

*Maintenance fees 2012*

SVR - Cascades  2Bd/LO  EOY 

2012 Operating Assessment $373.72
2012 Replacement Reserve  $56.14
2012 Estimated Real Estate Tax $60.19

                        TOTAL: $490.65 ( UP $0.44 From 2011)

Did Not Pay  - ARDA-ROC PAC $5.00

maggiesmom


----------



## GregGH (Nov 22, 2011)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Starwood alone is at fault for the delinquent fees.  The developers don't even care about your credit rating.  They just give timeshare loans to anyone who likes the product, at outrageous rates.  Then the owner defaults on the loan and the MF's, because they have BAD CREDIT and would naturally do that.  It's their character to default.  So don't sell timeshares to deadbeats!
> 
> GEEZ, what is wrong with this picture?



Curious outside lurker here -- question -- are  the defaults primarily from owners with - or without loans to Starwood?  

I had read elsewhere some time ago that developers are hesitant to foreclose on delinquent loans as they then assume the problem of then becoming the owner of record ... so they ignore and let the unpaid MF's pile up so they don't  have to pay.... kicking the can down the road as it where.

Seems to me a problem with any developer who ALSO pushed a lot of in house loans ?

Curious that 'bad debts' is getting to be a pretty big number here ...

Greg


----------



## jarta (Nov 23, 2011)

GrehGH,   ...   Look at the resorts where the MF delinquencies are higher.

The higher MF bad debts (except for Hawaii) seem to me to be at the older timeshare resorts.  It would be logical that these resorts have an aging population for those who bought from the developer and the resale owners in general have so little invested in their purchase that they can walk away if things go South in their lives while the MF go North.

Add to that situation the developer owners who have had things go South in their lives and you have a real problem.

How far away and at what cost should the resort chase the deadbeats who count on the cost being too high to be pursued?  Should a timeshare resort in SC be chasing people in NY, or TX, or IL, or CA to obtain a personal judgment for, in many cases, $1-3K?  That type of unreasonable pursuit is not generally very profitable.  So, the timeshare resort takes a deed in foreclosure, resells the property (hopefully to a more responsible owner) and writes off the delinquent MF.  That's the reality of timeshares.  Perhaps, when you purchased, you didn't understand this reality.

Starwood always had high MF because of the amenities provided.  Now they are even higher because of the delinquencies.  I think Starwood is being very conservative on the percentage addition for delinquencies.  If the delinquencies are over-estimated, all other things being equal, the resort should be running a profit and, at year end, the profit goes to the reserve fund.  In the end, that may reduce the reserve portion of the MF.  Over time, it's a painful readjustment for all owners.

When the economy recovers, people have jobs again and they begin spending more (rather than saving more as a hedge against that "rainy day") and again vacationing more at places farther from where they live, MFs for timeshares may moderate.  But, I wouldn't count on that happening any time soon (if at all).  And, this will probably not occur for aging resorts where more maintenance of the aging facilities and higher MF will become permanent.  All IMO.   ...   eom


----------



## l2trade (Nov 23, 2011)

*I better get the 2012 SDO MF bill soon...*

Starwood better send me that 2012 SDO MF bill ASAP!  I budgeted the best I can, so they better send it to me soon...

OR ELSE, I am gonna blow it all on Black Friday and Christmas!!!


----------



## ragdoll (Nov 23, 2011)

jarta said:


> GrehGH,   ...   Look at the resorts where the MF delinquencies are higher.



Where can we obtain this information on delinquencies for individual resorts?


----------



## LisaRex (Nov 23, 2011)

l2trade said:


> Starwood better send me that 2012 SDO MF bill ASAP!  I budgeted the best I can, so they better send it to me soon...
> 
> OR ELSE, I am gonna blow it all on Black Friday and Christmas!!!



That's why I pay my MFs throughout the year!


----------



## DavidnRobin (Nov 23, 2011)

l2trade said:


> Starwood better send me that 2012 SDO MF bill ASAP!  I budgeted the best I can, so they better send it to me soon...
> 
> OR ELSE, I am gonna blow it all on Black Friday and Christmas!!!



I use my SPG AMEX card to pay MFs - get double SPs which is essentially a 2 night stay at a Cat 5* SPG hotel.  If I use fuzzy math this can be a significant - 2 nites at the Westin Paris that has a back-of-the-door rate of $1100/nite = $2200 - Wow!!! <--- this is sarcasm for those who think I am serious...

I have paid them all so far except WKORV - they haven't sent the bill yet (wierd that even WSJ beat them considering how slow things move in the USVI)


----------



## Henry M. (Nov 23, 2011)

The $1100 rack rate is a little much to use in Starpoint math, but the AAA nightly rate for the cheapest room at the Westin Paris this December (when I'm actually in Paris) is 315 Euros or $420. $840 is not a bad reward. It helps take some of the sting out of the maintenance fees. Nothing fuzzy about it.

Now if you're platinum and get upgraded to a suite, the value jumps to 540 Euro/night or about $720/night. At that rate converting WKORV to 80,000 Starpoints (88,000 if you're platinum) actually more than covers the maintenance fees. 

Now I do agree this is not for everyone. If you would not want to stay in such a room, then you would not give Starpoints that much value. However, that is the real cost of that type of accommodation in one of the most desirable parts of Paris.


----------



## jarta (Nov 23, 2011)

ragdoll,   ...   "Where can we obtain this information on delinquencies for individual resorts?"

The estimated loss due to deficiencies can be calculated from the 2012 proposed budget sent to you for the resort you own.

Under "Revenues" in the proposed budget the "Maintenance Fee Revenue" is the proposed MF billed to owners.

Under "Expenses" the "Reserve for Bad Debt" is the estimated loss due to non-payment of, almost exclusively, unpaid MF.  The balance is usually unpaid unpaid SVN club dues and credit card ripoffs.

Reserve for Bad Debt / Maintenance Fee Revenue gives you a pretty good percentage estimated to be lost due to non-payment of MF for the year.  

The MFs of those who pay their MFs is higher due to the expected non-payment of those who don't. If everyone pays and there are no MF delinquencies, revenues will exceed expenses and, for the year, the resort would run a profit.    ...   eom


----------



## shade (Nov 23, 2011)

*maintenance fees 2012*

Mystarcentral has the maintenance fee for WKORV posted. Not for Lagunamar though


----------



## jarta (Nov 23, 2011)

shade,   ...   "Mystarcentral has the maintenance fee for WKORV posted. Not for Lagunamar though"

Please note that I explained the calculation to ragdoll using the proposed budget.  The budget document is itemized. 

Any 2011 or 2012 MF bill is not so itemized and they do not itemize or single out (nor should they) the bad debt allowance or all of the rest of the line items of income or expense shown in the budget.   ...   eom


----------



## ragdoll (Nov 23, 2011)

emuyshondt said:


> The $1100 rack rate is a little much to use in Starpoint math, but the AAA nightly rate for the cheapest room at the Westin Paris this December (when I'm actually in Paris) is 315 Euros or $420. $840 is not a bad reward. It helps take some of the sting out of the maintenance fees. Nothing fuzzy about it.
> 
> Now if you're platinum and get upgraded to a suite, the value jumps to 540 Euro/night or about $720/night. At that rate converting WKORV to 80,000 Starpoints (88,000 if you're platinum) actually more than covers the maintenance fees.
> 
> Now I do agree this is not for everyone. If you would not want to stay in such a room, then you would not give Starpoints that much value. However, that is the real cost of that type of accommodation in one of the most desirable parts of Paris.




I certainly endorse the concept of using points for travel hotels. We were able to do this in May, staying in two very expensive Westin Hotels in Italy using points. The Westin Rome was our all-time favorite hotel (ever), very near the Borghese Gardens, and the one in Venice was also wonderful. I don't remember the point/price value but it was much better than we expected: we had a very large, upgraded room with a huge terrace on a high floor. Would do it again anytime. You cannot compare using the AAA rate because AAA will not likely get you an upgraded room, but your Westin status will. The Westins overseas, BTW, are much nicer than the ones in the US in every way.


----------



## shade (Nov 23, 2011)

I am just saying that my maintenance fee for 2012 just appeared on mystarcentral. For annual 2bdrm OV the total is $2185.74 w ARDA.


----------



## DavidnRobin (Nov 24, 2011)

emuyshondt said:


> The $1100 rack rate is a little much to use in Starpoint math, but the AAA nightly rate for the cheapest room at the Westin Paris this December (when I'm actually in Paris) is 315 Euros or $420. $840 is not a bad reward. It helps take some of the sting out of the maintenance fees. Nothing fuzzy about it.
> 
> Now if you're platinum and get upgraded to a suite, the value jumps to 540 Euro/night or about $720/night. At that rate converting WKORV to 80,000 Starpoints (88,000 if you're platinum) actually more than covers the maintenance fees.
> 
> Now I do agree this is not for everyone. If you would not want to stay in such a room, then you would not give Starpoints that much value. However, that is the real cost of that type of accommodation in one of the most desirable parts of Paris.



Sarcasm challenged?


----------



## l2trade (Nov 24, 2011)

DavidnRobin said:


> Sarcasm challenged?



. Lol, apparently so...

I like the suggestion of using my hotel points credit card to pay, but I don't have an SPG Amex yet.  Perhaps, I could use my citi hhonors or chase marriott or wyndham rewards or priority club cards?


----------



## Henry M. (Nov 24, 2011)

I was just trying to show that Starpoints are indeed valuable using actual rates that would be paid for an average night, not sarcastic rack rates that probably no one ever pays and were only meant to further put down the value of the points.

It wasn't about the rate, but rather about the notion that any talk of Starpoints value is fuzzy math, which is what the sarcasm was meant to convey.


----------



## DavidnRobin (Nov 24, 2011)

emuyshondt said:


> I was just trying to show that Starpoints are indeed valuable using actual rates that would be paid for an average night, not sarcastic rack rates that probably no one ever pays and were only meant to further put down the value of the points.
> 
> It wasn't about the rate, but rather about the notion that any talk of Starpoints value is fuzzy math, which is what the sarcasm was meant to convey.



I understand - I was also making the point to gather SOs in using the SPG AMEX to pay MFs - AND - it is always good to optimize SPs no matter what.

Happy Thanksgiving


----------



## chibuilder (Nov 24, 2011)

*Lakeside Terrace $1054.37 for 2012 incl ARDA-ROC*

Just got my maintenance fee bill for Lakeside Terrace in Beaver Creek, CO.  2br condo:

2012 Operating Assessment:   $849.39
2012 Replacement Reserve:    $199.98
2012 ARDA-ROC PAC contrib:  $   5.00 (optional)
TOTAL:                             $1054.37

This is a $140 increase over last year (16.3% increase).  Interesting to note that the largest reason for the increase ($46 of the $140) was because of an increased provision for uncollectible accounts.  Next came $37 for property enhancements. $12 for housekeeping increases, $10 for utility increases and $5 for engineering staff.


----------



## Garnet (Nov 26, 2011)

*WMH 2 bed at $1466.83*

WMH: 
$1079.23 Vaca. ownership
  $163.14 Condo commons
  $219.46 Master cut
      $5      ARDA vol. supposed to keep ts taxes low fee-hmmm?
$1,466.83 total

also, separate real estate taxes state of CA for $111.20 for YEAR (we purch. resale)  total incl taxes is $1,578.03


----------

