# WYNDHAM, READ THIS! Owners want a Friends & Family list.



## Jan M. (Sep 8, 2022)

Owners are still patiently waiting to have the option of having a Friends & Family list. 

Question 1.  How many names on a F&F list be would be enough for most owners? IMO four names just isn't going to be enough for most owners; it needs to be six.
Question 2.  Would owners be willing to pay a certain amount for the first four names on their list and a higher cost per name for two additional names to be able to have six names?
Question 3.  What would be a reasonable cost per name? I've seen $149 mentioned which is the equivalent of 1.5 guest confirmation fees. That seemed reasonable to me. $175 or $200 each for two additional names?
Question 4.  How long would the term be for F&F list? A year, 18 months, two years? I'd think most owners would want at least 18 months if not two years.
Question 5.  Could owners be given options to select the length of the term? I'd expect that the fee per name would be based on the length of the term they aelected.
Question 6.  During the term would owners be able to make changes to the list? Add names if they hadn't used the max? Delete names to add a different name? Full fee or prorated fee for the remaining time?
Question 7.  If owners could delete a name to add a different name would and should that be a one time option? For the whole list or just per name?
Question 8.  Should owners only be permitted to change a name on their F&F list when there's extenuating circumstances. Like now resides in a nursing home so no longer travels, dies?
Question 9.  Would owners be able to create/start their F&F list at any time or only at certain times during the year?

If someone wants to set this up as a poll please feel free to do so. Suggestions for other questions are welcome.


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## scootr5 (Sep 8, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> Owners are still patiently waiting to have the option of having a Friends & Family list.



Maybe I missed it, but where has then been discussed before? And what is the purpose?


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## MaryBella7 (Sep 8, 2022)

I would like a F&F list but not paid, just a short list of people whom you can use a guest cert on without it being suspected as renting. It should probably only be able to be changed after a given amount of time though like once a year. I don’t gift time to family or friends enough without being there to pay extra for it. But for the times I do, it would be nice to not be suspected as a renter.


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## Jan M. (Sep 8, 2022)

scootr5 said:


> Maybe I missed it, but where has then been discussed before? And what is the purpose?



This discussed after the Owner Priority lists began. Many of us got and answered a Wyndham survey about having a F&F list. I think it was also a random pop up on the website for a couple of weeks.

Not everyone wants to add family members to their ownership or set up a trust. This provides an alternative. 

A number of people who got the dreaded letters are worried and hesitant to use their free guest confirmations. That would be because some owners have been suspended from adding guest names for I think its' six months. You, the collective you, would think it's because they were continuing to rent and used a lot of those free guest confirmations. Nope. Although that was the case with some.

The option is available with RCI for Weeks account owners. I don't remember if OP posted if other timeshare groups also offer it.


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## paxsarah (Sep 8, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> IMO four names just isn't going to be enough for most owners; it needs to be six.


I would guess four is more than enough for “most” owners. It may not be enough for most VIP platinum and above, but that’s not “most owners” in total.


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## scootr5 (Sep 8, 2022)

And would people on this list still require use of a GC for a reservation?


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## Rolltydr (Sep 8, 2022)

I agree with Sarah, four would be more than enough for the majority of owners. Most of us didn’t purchase a timeshare so we could send friends and family on vacation. We bought it for ourselves. If friends and family can go with us at times, great. If not, they can pay for their own place instead of taking units that other owners could be using.


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## Jan M. (Sep 8, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> I would guess four is more than enough for “most” owners. It may not be enough for most VIP platinum and above, but that’s not “most owners” in total.



There's owners who wouldn't care about having a F&F list because they don't have enough points to send OP very often or at all. The owners who have larger or very large accounts, developer or resale, and bought what they have to be able to send family and very close friends would be ones who would want a F&F list.

We're a small family so four would be sufficient for us if we saw the need to make use of a F&F list. However for owners with average sized and larger families and very close friends they often travel with even being able to have two more names on their list would be important to them.


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## Jan M. (Sep 8, 2022)

scootr5 said:


> And would people on this list still require use of a GC for a reservation?



From what I understand about F&F lists you don't need a guest confirmation for the people on your list. That's why the fee would be at least $149/1.5 x the cost of a guest confirmation. If you aren't sending the people on your list at least twice during the term of the list you've wasted the money.

The reason this discussion is relevant is because I believe we're going to see some changes coming in regards to guests and guest confirmations. I'm saying it's realistic to expect that something is eventually going to come of the Owner Priority lists, the letters, the restrictions in adding any guest names. With what Bluegreen is doing will Wyndham follow suit?

It's a very good idea for owners to make their needs and wants known before any changes happen instead of crying about it afterwards.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 8, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> I would guess four is more than enough for “most” owners. It may not be enough for most VIP platinum and above, but that’s not “most owners” in total.



That’s why when this was originally discussed I suggested and wrote out recommendations for additional VIP F&F benefits - the higher your VIP tier the larger the number of free slots you receive. 


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 8, 2022)

scootr5 said:


> And would people on this list still require use of a GC for a reservation?



No, this program was discussed as a way to either augment or potentially replace GCs altogether. 


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 8, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> I agree with Sarah, four would be more than enough for the majority of owners. Most of us didn’t purchase a timeshare so we could send friends and family on vacation. We bought it for ourselves. If friends and family can go with us at times, great. If not, they can pay for their own place instead of taking units that other owners could be using.



The suggestion originally made was to mirror the amount of GCs received for current contract types. So for resale contracts, the default would be two. 


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 8, 2022)

The original survey also asked questions about whether owners would want the ability to provide a points allocation to F&F members to enable those members to make reservations on their own using their own credentials. 

So for example, I own 1.4mm points. If I add my three adult children as F&F members I could allocate 150k points to each F&F member and they would login using their own credentials (think parent/child type accounts), and perform their own bookings without the primary account owner having to do anything. The primary account owner could also control the number of assigned RTs and HKCs allocated to each F&F member. The owner could also suspend these allocations at their sole discretion at any time for any/all F&F accounts. 


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## CO skier (Sep 9, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> Owners are still patiently waiting to have the option of having a Friends & Family list.





scootr5 said:


> Maybe I missed it, but where has then been discussed before? And what is the purpose?


This is nothing more than a cheapskate workaround for Guest Certificates -- never going to happen no matter how patient owners might be.

Every owner, Developer points or resale, is awarded at least 2 complimentary guest certificates.  Share those with Friend & Family.

If any Friends & Family want more than that, let them become owners for as little as $1 (in the resale market).  If they do not want the associated maintenance fee obligations, then they are clearly non-owners and should not be bestowed the privileges of ownership that a Friends & Family option would offer.

Club Wyndham is a Vacation Club for invested owners, right?  You know, the owners who regularly pay maintenance dues.  Every owner gets some limited ability to share Club privileges with non-owners through Guest Certificates.  Beyond that (some weird Friend & Family benefit) just detracts from all Club owners' availability.

There  is already a "Friends & Family" option.  Just purchase a new contract in any joint name and add it to your existing Club Wyndham account.

This is something Wyndham WorldMark owners cannot do, because WorldMark ownerships are limited to only two owner names.


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## lost patience (Sep 9, 2022)

please no...   I can't even imagine the debacle Wyndham would make attempting to implement something like this.


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## paxsarah (Sep 9, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> That’s why when this was originally discussed I suggested and wrote out recommendations for additional VIP F&F benefits - the higher your VIP tier the larger the number of free slots you receive.



And I think that’s an equitable approach. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with owners who’ve paid to be VIP and have significantly more points to be given a longer friends and family list, but not under the guise that’s what “most owners” would need. It’s human nature to think “I’m pretty average,” (I do it too!) but in the case of platinum and above Wyndham owners, it’s probably not the case.


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## Eric B (Sep 9, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> It’s human nature to think “I’m pretty average,” (I do it too!)



I respectfully disagree ... we all seem to think we're above average...!


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## chapjim (Sep 9, 2022)

Eric B said:


> I respectfully disagree ... we all seem to think we're above average...!



And all the women are strong and all the men are good looking (hat tip to Garrison Keillor).


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 9, 2022)

Here's poll results from an online survey regarding an F&F program out on the FB forums that Richelle and I did on this topic not long after the GC changes and blackout periods were initially introduced:





Here's a quick reference to what we proposed to Wyndham regarding the VIP tiering as it relates to any F&F program:

Non-VIP:  2 F&F slots
VIPB:  3 F&F slots
VIPS:  4 F&F slots
VIPG:  5 F&F slots
VIPP:  7 F&F slots
VIPF:  10 F&F slots


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## paxsarah (Sep 9, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Here's poll results from an online survey regarding an F&F program out on our FB forums that Richelle and I did on this topic not long after the GC changes and blackout periods were initially introduced:
> 
> View attachment 64520
> 
> ...


One way to simplify things (since whenever Wyndham makes a change they claim it's to "simplify" things for owners - but tell me, how is it simple that you get one RT for 77k and one HK for 70k?) would be to start with 2 for non-VIP and then use the same numbers as added HK credits for each VIP level. That would give:
Non-VIP:  2 F&F slots
VIPB:  3 F&F slots
VIPS:  4 F&F slots
VIPG:  6 F&F slots
VIPP:  8 F&F slots
VIPF:  10 F&F slots


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## bnoble (Sep 9, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Here's poll results


I mean, that's kind of like asking "Would you be in favor of having dessert as an option at dinner?" Of course most people think it's a good idea to have the option not to use a GC on someone.


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## Lisa P (Sep 9, 2022)

My biggest concern would be adding more complexity to an already strained system (IT).


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## CO skier (Sep 9, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Here's a quick reference to what we proposed to Wyndham regarding the VIP tiering as it relates to any F&F program:
> 
> Non-VIP:  2 F&F slots
> VIPB:  3 F&F slots
> ...



And this is what Wyndham currently offers as a VIP tiered "Friends & Family" program.


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## WManning (Sep 9, 2022)

Lisa P said:


> My biggest concern would be adding more complexity to an already strained system (IT).


I could only hope IT was complex.


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## WManning (Sep 9, 2022)

CO skier said:


> And this is what Wyndham currently offers as a VIP tiered "Friends & Family" program.
> 
> View attachment 64531


Pretty much a wash for the average Joe.


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## scootr5 (Sep 9, 2022)

CO skier said:


> And this is what Wyndham currently offers as a VIP tiered "Friends & Family" program.



There seems to be an issue though with people sending friends or family, and then getting letters accusing them of commercial renting even when they were not (versus people getting the letter that were actually engaging in commerce). I think the intent of this list would be to curtail that from happening.


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## Sandy VDH (Sep 9, 2022)

I am thinking I am going to have to change our ownership structure because of the wyndham rule changes.  

I have had too many bookings for my family this year, and with the reduction in GCs I am having to pay for them since I am out of my free ones.  I had 7 bookings for my Immediate family (brothers sisters neices nephews) in the month of August alone.  That is half my yearly allotment right there.  I booked my sister 2 nights in Edisto for the driving trip back home from FL to Canada and the GC was more then the cost of the points in $$.  

I need to get this done sooner rather than later.  Covid delayed it, but the cat is out of the bag now.


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## Snippy (Sep 9, 2022)

Are you suggesting that each F&F would show up like an owner?  And, not need a guest certificate?  There would be benefits to this.  RCI offers a 5 year guest certificate (or at least used to).  There could be value in such a thing, but what are the chances it would be implemented poorly making a huge mess?  

From FB and TUG  comments  I've seen the following and personally experienced a couple of these:
 Wyndham poorly implemented a new payment system - a month later it is not working correctly requiring owners to spend over an hour on hold to get themselves a password.   Once in, owners are seeing all kinds of errors.    
Wyndham implemented "owner priority" but reservations that complied were cancelled.  
Wyndham implemented "owner priority", but owner care is not able to identify if you did or did not use one of your two per year.  
Wyndham revamped to allocate Every other year points - but does not have the staff to support replying to the impacted owners.  
Wyndham is sending accusing letters to those that have used guest certificates.  Poorly written.  No way for an owner to "appeal".  They provided an email address that no one responds to.  They provided a phone number, the owners are reporting difficulty getting a human to answer or return a call.     

Instead of proposing options that if implemented, would likely be implemented poorly, how about proposing solutions that naturally reduce owners from renting.  Some of these ideas would take a while before Wyndham would see a benefit, but owners would be satisfied and Wyndham could take the funds they are currently expending for improved customer support.  

1.   Already done:   new VIP do not receive unlimited housekeeping
2.   Already done.   Resale does not receive VIP benefits
3.    Add a maximum number of points in a membership  (Likely naturally occurring as many hybrid owners have posted they are selling their resale)  
4.  Adding a 16 day minimum cancellation requirement for guests booking with Extra holidays.   OR - providing points refund IF a listing within Extra Holidays is cancelled within 15 days
5.  Allowing an owner to specify the minimum number of days they are willing to accept on a listing with EH.   If I submit a 3 night to EH, I could specify that my minimum requirement is 2 of the 3 nights.   
6.  Provide a points refund for unrented nights within EH.   If I submit a 3 night to EH and EH rents 1 of those nights, then Wyndham refunds the points for the unused 2 nights.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 9, 2022)

scootr5 said:


> There seems to be an issue though with people sending friends or family, and then getting letters accusing them of commercial renting even when they were not (versus people getting the letter that were actually engaging in commerce). I think the intent of this list would be to curtail that from happening.



This is the entire point of adopting a F&F program - to permit differentiation between renters vs actual friends and family.  It would be easy to add T&Cs whenever adding a F&F member to your account that clearly outlines that no F&F member can be added to the owner account that is not only for personal use.  If Wyndham determines at any point that a member added to the F&F list for an owner is in violation of the T&Cs, Wyndham reserves the right to remove/suspend that F&F member at their sole discretion, and if repeated violations are logged, that owners F&F benefit can be suspended or removed entirely, again at Wyndham's discretion.


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## bnoble (Sep 9, 2022)

scootr5 said:


> There seems to be an issue though with people sending friends or family, and then getting letters accusing them of commercial renting even when they were not


Has this actually happened, or is this something we think might have happened? (I'm not on FB, so if that's where this was I missed it.)


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## auntiepen (Sep 9, 2022)

Few months ago I was at Oceanside CA for an update and upgrade.  At that time I was able to add (4)my family members in the ownership for free of charge. I think I still can do it. I did not add the names. They told me if I did add FF names and when I want to sell or purchase or change any thing in my account they (the family members who have their names in my account) will have to sign the papers works to complete the deal. It seems too much trouble as I thought we should be able to conduct any transaction without my family members involve.
I am not fond of an idea  in adding FF in the lists. I have big families and friends all over different part of the world. I feel I should be able to send any FF to a trip without pre assigned names . I normally don’t ask for any compensation. Except for few cases if they went on business trip then they will reimburse me just for the points I used.I always offered my friends any trip if I have enough points or if they ask. I paid too much money for the ownership and it’s going to be a draw back for me.


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## Jan M. (Sep 9, 2022)

bnoble said:


> Has this actually happened, or is this something we think might have happened? (I'm not on FB, so if that's where this was I missed it.)



Yes this is actually happening. Most of the Tuggers who have personal experience won't post about it.


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## bnoble (Sep 9, 2022)

Let me put it a different way: Has anyone publicly stated that they (a) got a nastygram and (b) never actually rented to someone they didn't know reasonably well in advance? If there has been, I haven't seen it. Of course, I'm also not on Facebook which is where more discussion seems to be going on.


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## Jan M. (Sep 9, 2022)

Some of you seem to have missed the whole point. It would be great to see some *constructive* discussion and alternative ideas.

I'm saying that change is coming and we might actually have the opportunity to be heard before that happens. We know Wyndham does read the threads. We have Hitchhiker. We can use the feedback on the website and respond to the surveys after our stays.

Try to think outside the box.

1.  Keep in mind that not all owners have the same needs. Also that your needs may change. Some of you have children who will eventually be taking over the account. When that time comes their needs may be different than yours.

2.  Some of us already have our adult children or family members on our accounts. There's some good reasons to do that but that doesn't work for everyone.

3.  What could Wyndham do that they couldn't screw up? No one's going to argue about Wyndham's appalling track record.

4.  What if Wyndham were to do what Bluegreen is doing or is proposing to do? Each account gets a max of 10 guest confirmations a year. Maybe someone else remembers if some or any were free or if a cost was mentioned. It would certainly cut down on the renting which I'm guessing is why Bluegreen is doing it.


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## Jan M. (Sep 9, 2022)

bnoble said:


> Let me put it a different way: Has anyone publicly stated that they (a) got a nastygram and (b) never actually rented to someone they didn't know reasonably well in advance? If there has been, I haven't seen it. Of course, I'm also not on Facebook which is where more discussion seems to be going on.



Yes,

I tend to be skeptical when it comes to many of those Facebook posts. So many people think it isn't renting if they're only covering their maintenance fees. Others are self-serving and not entirely honest when they claim they aren't renting even though there's indications they are.


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## Rolltydr (Sep 9, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> I had 7 bookings for my Immediate family (brothers sisters neices nephews) in the month of August alone.


Does this not scream PROBLEM? One owner has 7 guest reservations in a single month for family members! Potentially, there are 7 owners who can’t get reservations because those units are reserved for non-owners. I can understand Wyndham receiving a ton of complaints from actual owners who can’t get reservations when they want/need them. And, Wyndham knows it’s because a large number of guest confirmations are preventing the owners from accessing those units. Why wouldn’t they try to fix that? I know it’s never going to be perfect, but, theoretically, a guest confirmation should never prevent a paying owner from accessing a unit. 

I know that’s not going to be a popular view for some of you, but why should your non-MF paying friends and family getting a free (to them) timeshare unit take precedence over a MF paying owner getting what they are paying for? I have no problem whatsoever with what Wyndham is doing in this regard. Their sales tactics and IT issues are huge problems. Reducing GC abuse, they’re on the right track.


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## Sandy VDH (Sep 9, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> Does this not scream PROBLEM? One owner has 7 guest reservations in a single month for family members! Potentially, there are 7 owners who can’t get reservations because those units are reserved for non-owners. I can understand Wyndham receiving a ton of complaints from actual owners who can’t get reservations when they want/need them. And, Wyndham knows it’s because a large number of guest confirmations are preventing the owners from accessing those units. Why wouldn’t they try to fix that? I know it’s never going to be perfect, but, theoretically, a guest confirmation should never prevent a paying owner from accessing a unit.
> 
> I know that’s not going to be a popular view for some of you, but why should your non-MF paying friends and family getting a free (to them) timeshare unit take precedence over a MF paying owner getting what they are paying for? I have no problem whatsoever with what Wyndham is doing in this regard. Their sales tactics and IT issues are huge problems. Reducing GC abuse, they’re on the right track.



I have the entire families holdings under my name to get it all counted toward VIPP status.  15+ years ago when I did this, I got my units, my parents and my sisters timeshares all under one account and we did a big convert fixed weeks, PIC, and  developer purchase to turn it into a VIPP family account.  When we did this it was Unlimited Guest Certs, so this was never an issue on how it was deeded, and at the time we never thought it would be.  Even at 30 it was never an issue.  But at 15 it is an issue.

As far as myself and my family are concerned, this has always has been a family holdings, just in my account, and it was set up that way because I manage it and deal with it for the family, but because of all the rule changes and because how deeding is currently done, not all the name are on their.  I am going to switch it so it solves this problem.

I find it wholly self serving for you @Rolltydr to scream PROBLEM and ABUSE for letting my family use what they own.  When we set it up, that was not even a consideration to worry about GCs as they were unlimited, so to make it easier I did the deal instead of involving 3 families.

Your view is certainly yours but I, for one, find it *extremely offensive* that you make assumptions about my membership and account, and as a result you think my family does not deserve to have an account all set up in one place to achieve and maintain VIPP status.  None of the dates that I booked for my familiy were even on the blocked for owners only list, and the only reason it was 7 bookings was there was a cross country road trip with 7 family members involved.  Only 1 booking out of the 7 was for a 4 BR PH at BC, and this was done well in advance using resale points (only have 1 resale other 6 are developer), all the rest were picked up at or after the 60 day mark, using discounts.  Several of them I booked only a day or two in advance of checkin, because they were driving from Canada to FL then back to Canada.  So I am POSITIVE I did not block YOU or any other owners from booking anything they wanted in advance.  I'm not changing my families usage and as a matter of fact I am changing the deeding to better accommodate this, now that Wyndham has changed its rules.


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## Rolltydr (Sep 10, 2022)

My intent was not to offend but to ask why Wyndham would allow a few owners to book a fairly large number of rooms for non-owners. There are a limited number, albeit a large number, of units available to Wyndham owners at any given time. If a few owners are booking multiple units for non-owners, that necessarily limits the number of units available to other owners. Can anyone actually argue that fact? Owner complaints is, at least in part,  the reason Wyndham is changing the rules on renting and GC’s. It is simply good business to provide more access to your MF paying members.

It’s cute that you think I’m being self-serving because I believe actual owners should have access to the units you and others are giving to non-owners. I’m sure your family appreciates it very much and they should. It’s a nice thing you’re doing for them. But, unfortunately, it comes at a price to your fellow owners. I would not be at all surprised if Wyndham’s next move in this regard is to limit the number of names on a contract. As long as there are owners who try to take advantage of the rules, Wyndham will necessarily have to change those rules to prevent abuse and help the large majority of their owners enjoy their timeshares.


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## chapjim (Sep 10, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> Does this not scream PROBLEM? One owner has 7 guest reservations in a single month for family members! Potentially, there are 7 owners who can’t get reservations because those units are reserved for non-owners. I can understand Wyndham receiving a ton of complaints from actual owners who can’t get reservations when they want/need them. And, Wyndham knows it’s because a large number of guest confirmations are preventing the owners from accessing those units. Why wouldn’t they try to fix that? I know it’s never going to be perfect, but, theoretically, a guest confirmation should never prevent a paying owner from accessing a unit.
> 
> I know that’s not going to be a popular view for some of you, but why should your non-MF paying friends and family getting a free (to them) timeshare unit take precedence over a MF paying owner getting what they are paying for? I have no problem whatsoever with what Wyndham is doing in this regard. Their sales tactics and IT issues are huge problems. Reducing GC abuse, they’re on the right track.



No, it doesn't scream PROBLEM!  It's FAMILY and they are OWNERS!!!!  That's what Wyndham wants -- family vacations!

Using the same reasoning, every time you book a reservation, you might be keeping another owner from booking that reservation.  How can you be so selfish?


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## paxsarah (Sep 10, 2022)

auntiepen said:


> They told me if I did add FF names and when I want to sell or purchase or change any thing in my account they (the family members who have their names in my account) will have to sign the papers works to complete the deal.


This is simply adding co-owners, which has always been possible and many here have used to add family members to an account for convenience. However, it comes with the responsibilities of ownership, which is overkill when you simply want to send a relative on a nice vacation. Sometimes you just want to use a guest certificate without fear of having the reservation cancelled.


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## Rolltydr (Sep 10, 2022)

chapjim said:


> No, it doesn't scream PROBLEM!  It's FAMILY and they are OWNERS!!!!  That's what Wyndham wants -- family vacations!
> 
> Using the same reasoning, every time you book a reservation, you might be keeping another owner from booking that reservation.  How can you be so selfish?


I have a 38 year old daughter. I’m an owner. She is not. If I book a room for her, that room isn’t available to another owner. How in the world is it selfish of me to want all paying owners to have access to what they are paying for, but it isn’t selfish for million plus points owners to gift their non-owner friends and families units at the expense of other owners? If that makes me selfish so be it but I don’t understand that line of reasoning at all.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 10, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> I have the entire families holdings under my name to get it all counted toward VIPP status. 15+ years ago when I did this, I got my units, my parents and my sisters timeshares all under one account and we did a big convert fixed weeks, PIC, and developer purchase to turn it into a VIPP family account. When we did this it was Unlimited Guest Certs, so this was never an issue on how it was deeded, and at the time we never thought it would be. Even at 30 it was never an issue. But at 15 it is an issue.
> 
> As far as myself and my family are concerned, this has always has been a family holdings, just in my account, and it was set up that way because I manage it and deal with it for the family, but because of all the rule changes and because how deeding is currently done, not all the name are on their. I am going to switch it so it solves this problem.
> 
> ...



Sidestepping the active discussion and focusing on the intent of the thread - @Sandy VDH - how many family members does your account actually service? By this I mean - when you combined your ownerships way back when - how many actual owners are listed on your account - versus how many family members not listed as owners are regularly put on your reservations? I am asking because we are trying to get a better sense of the number of F&F members that would be appropriate for a VIPP level account for example. 


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 10, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> I have a 38 year old daughter. I’m an owner. She is not. If I book a room for her, that room isn’t available to another owner. How in the world is it selfish of me to want all paying owners to have access to what they are paying for, but it isn’t selfish for million plus points owners to gift their non-owner friends and families units at the expense of other owners? If that makes me selfish so be it but I don’t understand that line of reasoning at all.



If we look back at Wyndham’s history - for the vast majority of the company’s history prior to just the last few years - Wyndham actively sold VIP level ownerships by openly encouraging both family usage and rentals. The reality is that you can still contact Wyndham today and merge separate family accounts today - so Wyndham still actively allows this as an option. 

While things are obviously changing now, it is certainly understandable that long time owners feel they are being “left behind” via the rule changes we have seen over the past two years. I am not saying I agree or disagree with the sentiments being expressed either way - but I can certainly empathize and understand where long time VIP owners are coming from that were told to buy more points for family usage to take advantage of VIP benefits - and to use their GCs for this type of usage without any limitations. 


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## Rolltydr (Sep 10, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> If we look back at Wyndham’s history - for the vast majority of the company’s history prior to just the last few years - Wyndham actively sold VIP level ownerships by openly encouraging both family usage and rentals. The reality is that you can still contact Wyndham today and merge separate family accounts today - so Wyndham still actively allows this as an option.
> 
> While things are obviously changing now, it is certainly understandable that long time owners feel they are being “left behind” via the rule changes we have seen over the past two years. I am not saying I agree or disagree with the sentiments being expressed either way - but I can certainly empathize and understand where long time VIP owners are coming from that were told to buy more points for family usage to take advantage of VIP benefits - and to use their GCs for this type of usage without any limitations.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with everything you said, HitchHiker. I do understand that's what the sales staff pushed and that people may be disappointed if they've collected millions of points and now can't use them as they have in the past. I'm a VIP member myself and I've lost a couple of privileges. But Wyndham has thousands of owners, a very small subset of whom are Tuggers and a small subset of those who have very large accounts. That small subset, in my opinion, should not be able to reserve a large number of units for use by their friends and families at the expense of other owners. Wyndham apparently also sees this as a problem for their owners and is attempting to correct the problem.


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## Sandy VDH (Sep 10, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Sidestepping the active discussion and focusing on the intent of the thread - @Sandy VDH - how many family members does your account actually service? By this I mean - when you combined your ownerships way back when - how many actual owners are listed on your account - versus how many family members not listed as owners are regularly put on your reservations? I am asking because we are trying to get a better sense of the number of F&F members that would be appropriate for a VIPP level account for example.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Because Wyndham had unlimited Guest Certs at the time and my family lives in multiple countries, I quit claimed my parents and sister and BIL timeshare into my name, and I did the conversions, and PICed my two additional TS and then combine it all with a new purchase (which my brother paid part of) and put it all into my name (and my ex-husband names), because that was the easier path to reach the goal of getting to a single VIPP account.  This was 15 years ago, there was no telesales and we were in different countries/states, so it was just easier for us to do it that way.  Previously to the merging, there were 8 different names on the various contracts, as the kids were just preteens and teens and their names were not listed individually listed on the contracts.   Don't recall if we were advised to change all the names on the contracts to merge them, not sure if just merging existing contrats was even available 15 years ago, like it is now.  But we knew we had to make a new purhase and not everyone would be available when I did that. 

We have been traveling together as a family using the timeshares since 1995 when the first purchase was made, when the kids were indeed small kids.  Now the kids have grown up using the timeshare their whole lifes, and still use it frequently now that they are adults and have their own families.  Because of marriages and a prodominance of women among the siblings and kids, these are all under a variety of last names.   So there are currently 18 adult familiy members, who particpate in its usage, these include parents, siblings, the adult children of siblings and their spouses/SO.

Again we chose to create the account with me as the account holder because of the prevailing wyndham rules of unlimited GCs, so even at 30 GCs it was never a problem, but at 15 it is NOW a problem.  AFAIAC this is and has always been a FAMILY account since we merged them all into one some 15 years ago.  Get to VIPP was the goal of combining our ownership.  It didn't matter at the time how it was deeded as it worked just fine for decades, but the constant changing of rules means it has come time to change the ownership structure.  We had discussed the ramifications of this will everyone, and that is agreed to be the path forward.


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## chapjim (Sep 10, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> I have a 38 year old daughter. I’m an owner. She is not. If I book a room for her, that room isn’t available to another owner. How in the world is it selfish of me to want all paying owners to have access to what they are paying for, but it isn’t selfish for million plus points owners to gift their non-owner friends and families units at the expense of other owners? If that makes me selfish so be it but I don’t understand that line of reasoning at all.



How can you be so selfish? [Sarcasm, but you missed it.]

Clearly, owners with larger accounts will make more reservations than owners with smaller accounts and will use the reservations for himself/herself, family, or friends (or even (gasp!) rentals).  That doesn't mean the owner of the larger account is making reservations to the detriment of the owner of a smaller account.  The owner of a smaller account has the same ability to make a single reservation as the owner of the larger account and the owner of the larger account is not required legally, ethically, or morally to refrain from making a reservation just because there are other owners who might seek to make a like reservation at some point in the future. If the owner of the smaller account is unhappy with his status, options are available to increase the size of that account.

You have this crabbed notion that one owner booking a reservation keeps another owner from booking a reservation when that reservation was equally available to both owners.  (This disregards VIP benefits, which are also equally available to all.  For a price.)

Sandy VDH has her account set up to benefit her family.  How can you say this is wrong?


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 10, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> Totally agree with everything you said, HitchHiker. I do understand that's what the sales staff pushed and that people may be disappointed if they've collected millions of points and now can't use them as they have in the past. I'm a VIP member myself and I've lost a couple of privileges. But Wyndham has thousands of owners, a very small subset of whom are Tuggers and a small subset of those who have very large accounts. That small subset, in my opinion, should not be able to reserve a large number of units for use by their friends and families at the expense of other owners. Wyndham apparently also sees this as a problem for their owners and is attempting to correct the problem.



I honestly am not certain that your assertion is accurate with respect to Wyndham’s intent. I definitely see Wyndham discouraging commercial rentals of any kind moving forward, and yes we see the occasional FB post about alleged owners that don’t rent in any capacity getting caught upon these efforts, but as Jan said, many of these owners also don’t tell the whole story online. In my view Wyndham is not discouraging use of GCs for family and friends, nor do they want to do so for VIP owners at least for the time being. I know many many VIP owners who take large family vacations using GCs to book multiple rooms and I don’t see any problem with this at all. These are VIP benefits listed right in the VIP program rules after all. Like Jan, we have a small family so we don’t tend to do this much, but I know many other VIP owners who do and who would have a big problem if Wyndham restricted GC usage for friends and family members. 

That small subset of VIPP/VIPF owners are Wyndham’s best customers as well. Most have spent tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars over time for VIPP/VIPF accounts and I see no problems with giving this small subset of owners the privileges that come with a significant investment of their monies. If I were to spend another 50-100k to get to VIPF level up from VIPG I would expect more special treatment if I’m honest. This would include being able to send friends and family on vacations using the GCs that Wyndham allocated to these owners freely for this exact purpose. This benefit also brings non-owners into the resorts under ideal circumstances to see the value of timeshare ownership which is a good thing. 


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## scootr5 (Sep 10, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> My intent was not to offend but to ask why Wyndham would allow a few owners to book a fairly large number of rooms for non-owners. There are a limited number, albeit a large number, of units available to Wyndham owners at any given time. If a few owners are booking multiple units for non-owners, that necessarily limits the number of units available to other owners. Can anyone actually argue that fact?



When the reservation window opens, every owner has an opportunity to book the same units. You seem to be proposing that an owner can only book x number of units at a resort, regardless of wether there are other units available? You would have units sit empty on the _chance_ that another owner may book it later?


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 10, 2022)

I wouldn't care for that benefit because all of our kids, except one daughter-in-law, are on our account.  Even our son-in-law and daughter-in-law are on the account.  I did that years ago, 15 years ago, bought the Bali Hai and Shearwater with all of our names.  Our most recent addition to our family was not even on our radar yet.  

Now when our 16-year-old granddaughter and 12-year-old grandson start traveling, I might feel differently.  But for now, I am good with what we have done. 

We may walk away from all of it within a year.  I like some resorts in Wyndham, but not all resorts meet my expectations.


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## MaryBella7 (Sep 10, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> Totally agree with everything you said, HitchHiker. I do understand that's what the sales staff pushed and that people may be disappointed if they've collected millions of points and now can't use them as they have in the past. I'm a VIP member myself and I've lost a couple of privileges. But Wyndham has thousands of owners, a very small subset of whom are Tuggers and a small subset of those who have very large accounts. That small subset, in my opinion, should not be able to reserve a large number of units for use by their friends and families at the expense of other owners. Wyndham apparently also sees this as a problem for their owners and is attempting to correct the problem.


If there were more 3-4 bedroom units easily available, maybe people wouldn’t need to rent multiple units. Maybe it is unfair for people who don’t have large immediate families to book large units and take them away from people who have larger families! (Sarcasm)

My extended family vacations together once yearly. We use multiple units because the place we go only has smaller units. I am grateful to be able to take them with my ownership, so my children have memories with their extended family together. I book early, but not to the day early as we go off season, so I am not keeping any owner who really wants to from booking there.

Are we now going to move on from bashing the mega renters who have been squashed, and start beating down people who use the ownership with or for close family members? I really don’t know why there’s pearl clutching at people using their points for family now. That is clearly an allowed use and not commercial.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 10, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> Totally agree with everything you said, HitchHiker. I do understand that's what the sales staff pushed and that people may be disappointed if they've collected millions of points and now can't use them as they have in the past. I'm a VIP member myself and I've lost a couple of privileges. But Wyndham has thousands of owners, a very small subset of whom are Tuggers and a small subset of those who have very large accounts. That small subset, in my opinion, should not be able to reserve a large number of units for use by their friends and families at the expense of other owners. Wyndham apparently also sees this as a problem for their owners and is attempting to correct the problem.


Sure hurts Wyndham's own rentals when we book things for our family members.  

This is why our kids are on our membership.  They are on our deeds from day one.  They are all in their 40's. 

So you won't book your daughter anything on your points to save it for owners?  That's strange.


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## auntiepen (Sep 10, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I wouldn't care for that benefit because all of our kids, except one daughter-in-law, are on our account.  Even our son-in-law and daughter-in-law are on the account.  I did that years ago, 15 years ago, bought the Bali Hai and Shearwater with all of our names.  Our most recent addition to our family was not even on our radar yet.
> 
> Now when our 16-year-old granddaughter and 12-year-old grandson start traveling, I might feel differently.  But for now, I am good with what we have done.
> 
> We may walk away from all of it within a year.  I like some resorts in Wyndham, but not all resorts meet my expectations.


I would like to put my family members in my account so they don’t have to use GC. But I was told if you want to modify your account then every one in the account must sign the documents. Is this the fact?


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 10, 2022)

auntiepen said:


> I would like to put my family members in my account so they don’t have to use GC. But I was told if you want to modify your account then every one in the account must sign the documents. Is this the fact?


I think adding them to one or two of your deeds is all you would need to do.  Legal Timeshare Transfers can do that.  Email readylegal@gmail.com to ask how.  It may cost $299 Wyndham "transfer fee" for each contract.  That is a ridiculous fee, but  Wyndham has to get their money.  But the deeding part is not terribly expensive.


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## chapjim (Sep 10, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I think adding them to one or two of your deeds is all you would need to do.  Legal Timeshare Transfers can do that.  Email readylegal@gmail.com to ask how.  It may cost $299 Wyndham "transfer fee" for each contract.  That is a ridiculous fee, but  Wyndham has to get their money.  But the deeding part is not terribly expensive.



Glad you brought up the difference between adding names to deed((s) and adding names to an account.  Adding names to one deed and the Wyndham account has far fewer legal implications than adding names to a bunch of deeds.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 10, 2022)

auntiepen said:


> I would like to put my family members in my account so they don’t have to use GC. But I was told if you want to modify your account then every one in the account must sign the documents. Is this the fact?


Do you have VIP status of some sort?


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 10, 2022)

What we own would be so valuable to someone else.  I mean, two VIP Platinum Founder's accounts is worth so much money to the right person.  Think of the vacations you can get for bargain travel costs.  Too bad I cannot transfer to someone and maintain that status.  Wyndham constantly devalues their own product.  It's nonsense.  

Our kids seem to be very disinterested in the Wyndham status we have.  Our one daughter-in-law loves Marriott because her parents own Marriott and are enrolled in the DC (they have a Ko Olina 3 bedroom OF they bought direct when our daughter-in-law was in high school). 

I am not saying that Marriott or other companies are any different.  If you buy a week that is deeded and was enrolled into the DC before the resale, the buyer doesn't get the points, either.  

But Wyndham's resale value is pretty low and the market is flooded with people trying to get out.  I am watching resales to determine what to charge.  I may wait to see if things get better.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 10, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I think adding them to one or two of your deeds is all you would need to do.  Legal Timeshare Transfers can do that.  Email readylegal@gmail.com to ask how.  It may cost $299 Wyndham "transfer fee" for each contract.  That is a ridiculous fee, but  Wyndham has to get their money.  But the deeding part is not terribly expensive.


To add to that comment about the ridiculous $299 fee.  Do you know that Disney added our kids to our accounts with a simple deed change, also done by LT Timeshares, and they charge $0 to add names.  The benefits of adding our kids was amazing.  Disney did the right thing.  

Wyndham would never not charge the $299, even if you have 10 deeds at the same resort, same # of points to transfer.  It would be $2,990 to transfer all ten.  I know all about it, believe me.


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## auntiepen (Sep 10, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> To add to that comment about the ridiculous $299 fee.  Do you know that Disney added our kids to our accounts with a simple deed change, also done by LT Timeshares, and they charge $0 to add names.  The benefits of adding our kids was amazing.  Disney did the right thing.
> 
> Wyndham would never not charge the $299, even if you have 10 deeds at the same resort, same # of points to transfer.  It would be $2,990 to transfer all ten.  I know all about it, believe me.


I’m VIPP. They told me they will not charge me $299 and I can add up to 4 names. That was in May this year. I’ll go back there again in October. But again they told me all parties must sign documents if we want to modify any things.


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## chapjim (Sep 10, 2022)

auntiepen said:


> I’m VIPP. They told me they will not charge me $299 and I can add up to 4 names. That was in May this year. I’ll go back there again in October. But again they told me *all parties must sign documents *if we want to modify any things.



Which documents?


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 10, 2022)

auntiepen said:


> I’m VIPP. They told me they will not charge me $299 and I can add up to 4 names. That was in May this year. I’ll go back there again in October. But again they told me all parties must sign documents if we want to modify any things.



If those comments came from attending a sales update - be very careful what you believe and don’t sign anything without reading the entirety of what you are signing as what they are proposing is likely buying more points as part of whatever else they are telling you…


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## auntiepen (Sep 10, 2022)

chapjim said:


> Which documents?


Documents involve the ownership such as if we want to sell/trade or add more points.


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## auntiepen (Sep 10, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> If those comments came from attending a sales update - be very careful what you believe and don’t sign anything without reading the entirety of what you are signing as what they are proposing is likely buying more points as part of whatever else they are telling you…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We actually have those add in forms fill in the names already. I just changed my mind in last minutes. I’ll send message to ask the sale rep


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## Jan M. (Sep 10, 2022)

auntiepen said:


> We actually have those add in forms fill in the names already. I just changed my mind in last minutes. I’ll send message to ask the sale rep



I'm sure many OP will advise that the less you have to do with sales the better off you'll be. Unless your intent is to buy more points. If not then sales has nothing to do with adding family members to a contract/deed in your account. Give Owner Care a call and they should be able to direct you to the appropriate department.

It's been 15 years since we added our son when he turned 21 and that was back when it was Fairfield. I called in and they sent us the paperwork. We all signed, we had to have it notarized (your bank will do it for free) and sent the paperwork back with the required copies of our driver's licenses and a check for the then $100 fee. 

This is what some people do instead. Find a small CWA contract you can get cheap and put everyone's name on it. It doesn't obligate anyone to a large amount of maintenance fees if that's an issue for any family members. Also because CWA is a contract, not a deed, any changes are easier do to and it only costs $299 as there's no deed to be transferred.


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## CO skier (Sep 11, 2022)

chapjim said:


> No, it doesn't scream PROBLEM!  It's FAMILY and they are OWNERS!!!!


If "FAMILY' are not listed on the deeds, they are not "OWNERS!!!!"

If "FAMILY" are listed on the deeds, then they qualify for the Owner Priority booking times and other ownership privileges.

If "FAMILY" are not listed on any of the deeds, then they are "GUESTS!!!!", subject to guest usage rules.


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## CO skier (Sep 11, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> That small subset of VIPP/VIPF owners are Wyndham’s best customers as well. Most have spent tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars over time for VIPP/VIPF accounts and I see no problems with giving this small subset of owners the privileges that come with a significant investment of their monies. If I were to spend another 50-100k to get to VIPF level up from VIPG I would expect more special treatment if I’m honest.


This point is often trotted out over the years, and its fine as long as "privileges that come with a significant investment" have no adverse effect on other Club owners.  Free newpaper -- no effect on other owners.

Look at the past threads about how the practical elimination of cancel/rebook affected those with "privileges that come with a significant investment" or the more recent elimination of VIP privileges for resale points.  These "privileges" obviously had a negative effect on availability for all Club owners, so they are gone (for the most part).

Why Wyndham would open the door on abuses involving some weird, non-owner "Friends & Family" account designation after all they have done to limit rentals is beyond my ken.


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## chapjim (Sep 11, 2022)

CO skier said:


> If "FAMILY' are not listed on the deeds, they are not "OWNERS!!!!"
> 
> If "FAMILY" are listed on the deeds, then they qualify for the Owner Priority booking times and other ownership privileges.
> 
> If "FAMILY" are not listed on any of the deeds, then they are "GUESTS!!!!", subject to guest usage rules.


 
This was specifically about Sandy VDH's account where FAMILY are in fact OWNERS, not GUESTS. 

Your primer on OWNERS and FAMILY and GUESTS was not necessary.  No one said anything different.

It helps to have read the whole string of posts instead of going high order on one post.


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## Sandy VDH (Sep 11, 2022)

As I already stated, I am going to have to redo the deeding to change the structure of ownership, to aleviate all the recent rule changes and the conditions it is causing.  This will change the ownerships to how it is being used, and not how it was historically deaded.  Like I said we only deeded it that way because we did not think it would cause issues.  15 years later, it is causing issues. 

I'm just trying to figure out what is best Trust or just redeeding.


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## ronparise (Sep 11, 2022)

would this be a list that could be updated from time to time. I hope so, At my age my friends are dropping like flies and new friends are moving into my retirement home as soon as the old ones are rolled 

Looking at it from Wyndham's perspective, every friend or family member that can stay in an owners unit for free is one less person that is a good prospect for the sales dept. if Wyndham is going to work towards eliminating rentals, shouldn’t they also work toward eliminating friends and family

If I was a Wyndham decision maker I see a unit used by friends and family as no different than a rental ie a non owner taking a unit that should go to a owner

perhaps exceptions sir those situations when the owner is also staying on the property


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## bnoble (Sep 11, 2022)

ronparise said:


> would this be a list that could be updated from time to time.


There would have to be some rate-limiting. Otherwise, I could just keep making new friends (say, on Redweek or Go Koala) who just might want to thank me monetarily for sending them on vacation.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 11, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> This is what some people do instead. Find a small CWA contract you can get cheap and put everyone's name on it. It doesn't obligate anyone to a large amount of maintenance fees if that's an issue for any family members. Also because CWA is a contract, not a deed, any changes are easier do to and it only costs $299 as there's no deed to be transferred.



Once someone is listed as an owner on a Wyndham account, isn't that owner also deemed legally responsible for payment of all dues on that account?  With this in mind, I think people should think twice before adding another family member on any account with this in mind, especially a larger VIP account that has significant dues attached to it.  My dues for our Wyndham account are around $500/month, that's not an insignificant monthly expense by any means in my view.  Granted, it's not a fortune, but it's something that my children don't currently have any interest in taking on.  This could change in the future since they are all in their early to late twenties so $500/month is still a significant sum of money to them at this stage of their lives.  Sure Wyndham has a deedback program today - but that's always subject to change.  I for one don't want my children to be held legally liable for our timeshare costs unless they actually want to be held liable.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 11, 2022)

CO skier said:


> This point is often trotted out over the years, and its fine as long as "privileges that come with a significant investment" have no adverse effect on other Club owners.  Free newpaper -- no effect on other owners.
> 
> Look at the past threads about how the practical elimination of cancel/rebook affected those with "privileges that come with a significant investment" or the more recent elimination of VIP privileges for resale points.  These "privileges" obviously had a negative effect on availability for all Club owners, so they are gone (for the most part).
> 
> Why Wyndham would open the door on abuses involving some weird, non-owner "Friends & Family" account designation after all they have done to limit rentals is beyond my ken.



I'm not referring to loopholes that were never documented VIP benefits - I'm talking about the actual VIP entitlements listed out in the membership directory.  The point a F&F program is to introduce a benefit that doesn't have the same growing number of limitations that GCs currently have - due to too much rental activity.  I personally see a difference between commercial rental activities that are all too common when using GCs vs bringing real family and friends on vacations with owners, and occasionally sending family and friends on vacations without the owners present.

As @Jan M. said at the outset of this thread, more changes are likely coming, so we can either be a proactive part of a possible solution or we can continue to complain about them after the fact while  consciously practicing resistance and therefore having no input into what may be coming.  I choose the former.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 11, 2022)

ronparise said:


> would this be a list that could be updated from time to time. I hope so, At my age my friends are dropping like flies and new friends are moving into my retirement home as soon as the old ones are rolled
> 
> Looking at it from Wyndham's perspective, every friend or family member that can stay in an owners unit for free is one less person that is a good prospect for the sales dept. if Wyndham is going to work towards eliminating rentals, shouldn’t they also work toward eliminating friends and family
> 
> ...



There would have to be a documented process for managing changes to the F&F list, with some restrictions.  Using the F&F program wouldn't necessarily be free - many owners charge nominal fees for friends and relatives to stay in the resorts - such as covering the MFs used for the stay.  Therefore the assertion that it's one less person being a prospect for the sales department may or may not be accurate.  Bringing friends and family members is also more likely to result in people taking better collective care of the resorts - as the owner is ultimately held responsible for those who use the resorts when using GCs today for example, and the same would apply to F&F members - but family and friends tend to care a bit more when compared to strangers using the resorts.  

The bottom line is that Wyndham is likely looking to replace GCs with a next generation program that continues to encourage VIP membership buys without the current restrictions and problems that more generic GCs have introduced into the system.  Perhaps one method to consider is to allow VIP tiering to apply to multiple room reservations under the same owner name.  This would solve the problem of owners booking multiple rooms for larger friends and family vacations when the owner is also present.  I see challenges with this approach when it comes to preventing owners from showing up with actual renters posing as family members - but no system is perfect.  Just an idea here.  This would mean that a F&F program would then only apply to F&F members using rooms when the owner is not also staying at the same resort.


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## ronparise (Sep 11, 2022)

bnoble said:


> There would have to be some rate-limiting. Otherwise, I could just keep making new friends (say, on Redweek or Go Koala) who just might want to thank me monetarily for sending them on vacation.


Exactly right

which is the point I’m trying to make subtlety   Giving a unit to a friend or family member that is not an owner is no different than renting  a unit to someone that is (god forbid) not an owner. It ties up a unit and and owner can’t stay there

if the club wants to make it possible for non owners to use the property, (with an owners permission) perhaps a fixed number of guest certs per account would work, Who  cares what the name of the occupant is or what or if they are paying

Im a firm believer in the KISS policy when it comes to rule making.  If the club  is going to allow non owners (whether friends or family or strangers) allow it. Just put a limit on it

and to those that would tell me I don’t have a dog in this fight, you are correct…  for now.   I’m up to 6 grand kids in California and I still have family in Maryland. And Im moving from my house in Florida to a little condo with no room for visitors,   Timeshares still offer more than hotels for less.  I’m coming back


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## auntiepen (Sep 11, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Once someone is listed as an owner on a Wyndham account, isn't that owner also deemed legally responsible for payment of all dues on that account?  With this in mind, I think people should think twice before adding another family member on any account with this in mind, especially a larger VIP account that has significant dues attached to it.  My dues for our Wyndham account are around $500/month, that's not an insignificant monthly expense by any means in my view.  Granted, it's not a fortune, but it's something that my children don't currently have any interest in taking on.  This could change in the future since they are all in their early to late twenties so $500/month is still a significant sum of money to them at this stage of their lives.  Sure Wyndham has a deedback program today - but that's always subject to change.  I for one don't want my children to be held legally liable for our timeshare costs unless they actually want to be held liable.


I totally agreed with @HitchHiker71. My family members will not be able to pay MF.  If I put their names in the account I still plan to pay MF as long as we are alive. I don’t think any of them want to takeover my ownership. I’ll pretty give it away or return it to Wyndham.


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## auntiepen (Sep 11, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Exactly right
> 
> which is the point I’m trying to make subtlety   Giving a unit to a friend or family member that is not an owner is no different than renting  a unit to someone that is (god forbid) not an owner. It ties up a unit and and owner can’t stay there
> 
> ...


I never charged my family and good friends any money.  I just offer them the stays if I saw someplace that suit them. I agree that with the limited use or fixed of GC and who cares whose names in them. Too much fuss about GC


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## bnoble (Sep 11, 2022)

@auntiepen : are you spending money on guest certificates now? If you are, do you think of it as "a lot"?


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## auntiepen (Sep 11, 2022)

bnoble said:


> @auntiepen : are you spending money on guest certificates now? If you are, do you think of it as "a lot"?


No , I never used up my 15 GC. I just book 2-3 BR and see if anyone wants to join us. I don’t know how much is GC fee


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## bnoble (Sep 11, 2022)

Then you have NO NEED to add any names to any of your accounts. The only reason you might want to do that is if you are running out of free GCs.

Don't worry about any of this. Wait until you actually have a problem to solve it!


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## auntiepen (Sep 11, 2022)

auntiepen said:


> No , I never used up my 15 GC. I just book 2-3 BR and see if anyone wants to join us. I don’t know how much is GC fee





bnoble said:


> Then you have NO NEED to add any names to any of your accounts. The only reason you might want to do that is if you are running out of free GCs.
> 
> Don't worry about any of this. Wait until you actually have a problem to solve it!



Thank you for your input and I’m glad you suggested that.
I just looked at my account and my points usage starts In July yearly. I suppose to have 15 GCs. Now I’m not sure if my GC usage start from January or July. It seems I just used my my 15 GC if that’s a case then it means my GC starts in January not July. Then I have to pay GC next trip for my niece. Yeah $99 is expensive


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## Jan M. (Sep 11, 2022)

auntiepen said:


> Thank you for your input and I’m glad you suggested that.
> I just looked at my account and my points usage starts In July yearly. I suppose to have 15 GCs. Now I’m not sure if my GC usage start from January or July. It seems I just used my my 15 GC if that’s a case then it means my GC starts in January not July. Then I have to pay GC next trip for my niece. Yeah $99 is expensive



If you're booking stays for your family for resorts and dates on the priority list just remember you only get two exceptions a year for guest stays if you won't be there at the same time. It doesn't apply if you have a unit booked for yourself during the same time and another unit a family member's name. However there's always a risk of having the system cancel the family member's reservation because as we know the Wyndham system is flawed and sometimes capricious or maybe the better word is erratic. I do think that they may have gotten more of the bugs worked out by now so that it's rarely happening.

Would your family members be obligated for the maintenance fees for everything in the account even if they aren't on everything? I would suggest calling to ask. However be aware that this could be one of those things where the answer could be different depending on the person you speak with, the day, the weather that day and if the moon is in Aquarius. Lol.

Since you do have a VIP account hopefully someone in your family has the good sense to keep the account when you pass. Having their name(s) already on the account or having the account in a trust will be so much less headache for them not to mention the length of time it takes to get the transfer to them done after you're gone which could result in a large number of points being lost for that year. I would suggest that you only put the family members you think would have difficulty paying even a small portion of the maintenance fees just on one smaller deed or contract. That way it wouldn't be that difficult to remove their names if that's what everyone decides is best when you're gone. With CWA everything can be done online using docu-sign so it's really easy.

I don't see why this couldn't be done. In a person's will they could have the estate pay the maintenance fees for say a year or better yet two years. That would take the pressure off the family members to do anything right away. It would also give them time to see who wants to or is able to use the timeshare and how much. Sometimes there's a dominant family member or members who push everyone to their way of thinking and it isn't always in everyone's best interests.

It would be a very good idea to sit down with the family member or members who would most likely be interested in keeping the account and show them how to use the website, book and cancel a reservation and explain your VIP benefits. If you go to the updates, every time you do ask for a directory and give them to your family members.

Some owners find it advantageous to have the extra names on the account when they're trying to piece together stays.


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## Sandy VDH (Sep 13, 2022)

Spoke to Wyndham title and deeding.  They suggested I don't need to re-deed all of my ownership, but just 1, or perhaps in my case 2.  I still need to remove my ex-husband from 2 of the 6 deeds I have.  

I have 2 PIC weeks and one for some reason is listed as my name and one is listed in my exs name.  If I remove him from the deeds does anyone know how that could effect the one PIC week that is in my exs name.  

Has anyone ever heard that a PIC swap is possible.  I have two 2 BR in there as PICs, but finding a 3 or 4 would be an option IF that was allowed.  Today I don't actually ever convert these PIC to points.  I just used them to obtain VIPP.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 13, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> Spoke to Wyndham title and deeding.  They suggested I don't need to re-deed all of my ownership, but just 1, or perhaps in my case 2.  I still need to remove my ex-husband from 2 of the 6 deeds I have.
> 
> I have 2 PIC weeks and one for some reason is listed as my name and one is listed in my exs name.  If I remove him from the deeds does anyone know how that could effect the one PIC week that is in my exs name.
> 
> Has anyone ever heard that a PIC swap is possible.  I have two 2 BR in there as PICs, but finding a 3 or 4 would be an option IF that was allowed.  Today I don't actually ever convert these PIC to points.  I just used them to obtain VIPP.



Haven't done it firsthand but yes it's my understanding that you can swap PIC contracts.  People do this quite often with PIC Express since they expire after five years.  PIC Plus it's not as common but it happens when a PIC week becomes ineligible for whatever reason and then has to be replaced with a net new PIC week.  The key thing is to ensure that during the swap you don't lose any VIP eligibility - that everything remains intact during the swap process.  For folks that lose a PIC Plus (for example if the underlying resort switches from RCI weeks to points), I've seen instances where the owner drops down a VIP level - but then to get back up to the original VIP level they have to do so using the current points requirements - not the legacy VIP points requirements.  In your case you're not losing a current PIC Plus contract - you're swapping one for another - so something like this shouldn't happen - but I would triple check to ensure nothing adverse occurs during the swap process.


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## Pink_Warrior (Sep 14, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Haven't done it firsthand but yes it's my understanding that you can swap PIC contracts.  People do this quite often with PIC Express since they expire after five years.  PIC Plus it's not as common but it happens when a PIC week becomes ineligible for whatever reason and then has to be replaced with a net new PIC week.  The key thing is to ensure that during the swap you don't lose any VIP eligibility - that everything remains intact during the swap process.  For folks that lose a PIC Plus (for example if the underlying resort switches from RCI weeks to points), I've seen instances where the owner drops down a VIP level - but then to get back up to the original VIP level they have to do so using the current points requirements - not the legacy VIP points requirements.  In your case you're not losing a current PIC Plus contract - you're swapping one for another - so something like this shouldn't happen - but I would triple check to ensure nothing adverse occurs during the swap process.



So are they allowing this without a new developer purchase? We've always heard that PIC Express would drop off at five years and you would need to make a new purchase to bring it back in. I can see some leniency if RCI makes a change. But I'm not so sure that the entire program won't be on the hit list to plug the leaks in the program and there are a lot of leaks.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 14, 2022)

Pink_Warrior said:


> So are they allowing this without a new developer purchase? We've always heard that PIC Express would drop off at five years and you would need to make a new purchase to bring it back in. I can see some leniency if RCI makes a change. But I'm not so sure that the entire program won't be on the hit list to plug the leaks in the program and there are a lot of leaks.



To add or swap a PIC Plus contract that is not subject to expiration after five years requires a developer purchase. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cyrus24 (Sep 16, 2022)

I've not read all posts in this thread so if I duplicate a comment, I'll say, sorry, in advance.  I merely want to have my thoughts registered, since I know that Wyndham reads all this stuff.

I like the concept of a friends and family list.  BUT, I could only support it without understanding what we, as owners (and VIP's), would be giving up.  I don't want to give up my GC's and I do not want to give up any of my owner/VIP priorities to benefit only persons placed on a list.  And, to echo one comment that I did read.  Who believes that Wyndham IT could actually create/manage such a list?  I mean, really, they mess up everything every time they touch the system.  And, then take years (if ever) to fix the problems that they, themselves, create.

End of Rant.


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## Jan M. (Sep 16, 2022)

Cyrus24 said:


> Who believes that Wyndham IT could actually create/manage such a list? I mean, really, they mess up everything every time they touch the system. And, then take years (if ever) to fix the problems that they, themselves, create.



I'm chuckling to myself because that statement is one that I don't think anyone could disagree with. If they do we can all post a Jethro Gibbs headslap meme.

The VIP automatic upgrades have never worked reiiably, we still don't have the point charts back that mysteriously disappeared months ago, they can't even get our names right on our accounts, Paymentus is a total s**tshow, and the list goes on. The waitlist and the block from adding guest names if you've used your two exceptions to the owner priorty lists that are coming month will likely be fraught with problems. 

A Friends and Family list would actually be fairly easy to do and not screw up. RCI has been doing it for years for weeks accounts.


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## Cyrus24 (Sep 16, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> A Friends and Family list would actually be fairly easy to do and not screw up. RCI has been doing it for years for weeks accounts.


We are talking about Wyndham here.  They can screw up anything when it comes to IT.


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## Jan M. (Sep 16, 2022)

Cyrus24 said:


> We are talking about Wyndham here.  They can screw up anything when it comes to IT.



I started to add a laughing face but it really isn't funny. And our program fees pay for this website.


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## Richelle (Sep 16, 2022)

bnoble said:


> Let me put it a different way: Has anyone publicly stated that they (a) got a nastygram and (b) never actually rented to someone they didn't know reasonably well in advance? If there has been, I haven't seen it. Of course, I'm also not on Facebook which is where more discussion seems to be going on.



Yes.  There is an Admin on one of the Facebook groups who got a nastygram and she didn't rent to anyone.  I believe she used one GC in 2021 and one in 2022.


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## Richelle (Sep 16, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> Question 1.  How many names on a F&F list be would be enough for most owners? IMO four names just isn't going to be enough for most owners; it needs to be six.
> Question 2.  Would owners be willing to pay a certain amount for the first four names on their list and a higher cost per name for two additional names to be able to have six names?
> Question 3.  What would be a reasonable cost per name? I've seen $149 mentioned which is the equivalent of 1.5 guest confirmation fees. That seemed reasonable to me. $175 or $200 each for two additional names?
> Question 4.  How long would the term be for F&F list? A year, 18 months, two years? I'd think most owners would want at least 18 months if not two years.
> ...



1. Four would probably be more then enough for me.  When I book family vacations I typically do not need more then three to four rooms.  I put one in each owner's name (2), and use a GC for the third and fourth.  

2.  This depends.  If I do not have to use a GC for them, then yes, I would spend money on that.   If it's strictly so we have a way of telling Wyndham that we know these people personally (they are not renters), then no, I wouldn't pay for it because the list would benefit both of us.  It would help Wyndham better determine which guests are rentals and which are actual friends and family.  It would also reduce the number of times they target the wrong person.  As mentioned in my earlier comment, an admin on one of the Facebook groups got a nastygram.  She used one guest certificate in 2021 and one in 2022.  If she would have had a F&F list, Wyndham would have known those were people she knew and not renters.

3. How much depends on how often I would use it.  Maybe $99 for the first person (for a year or more), and $49 for each person after that.

4. Minimum 1 year.  Obviously I would accept more.  

5. I think giving them the option of a longer term would be nice, but it would depend on how they charge for the other things.  It might get to complicated for them.  Some people get frustrated when you throw too many choices at them.  I've seen people on Facebook complain about things being complicated.  Sometimes it's things that seem very simple to me.  So I guess the answer would be, what is the pricing structure and how will it be presented to them?

6. That should be an option, but it has to be limited to a certain number of changes per year, so the list doesn't get abused by people who are profiting from their timeshare.  

7. I think they should be allowed to modify the list at least one name, once a year.  It might be nice for it to be a little more flexible, but again, we have to be careful the list is not abused.

8. This would be handled on a case by case basis, but yes, I think that should be an option.  They could add the caveat that their name cannot be added back to the list for a certain period of time.   
9. Create it anytime, but changes cannot be made until the start of the new calendar year.  So if you create it in November, you can change it in January.  Calendar year is easier to track then use year I think.


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## dandjane1 (Sep 17, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> That’s why when this was originally discussed I suggested and wrote out recommendations for additional VIP F&F benefits - the higher your VIP tier the larger the number of free slots you receive.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


*In my case (both Dev. and Resale), Wyndham Oceanwalk charges $99 for a guest GC,
using Resale points, and I get 2 free GCs for these1,242,000 points. Why would I want to pay more than $99,
unless at least 4 GCs were free for resale points?*


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## tmcrent (Sep 17, 2022)

If you need more than 2 GC’s that should be a fee for your guest to pay, not the owner.


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## dori47 (Sep 17, 2022)

Direct family like your parents or your children I don't think should need a guest certificate, so that is who should be on the list. Siblings maybe not. But it is my unit, I should be able to have anyone check in and use it. Why should I have to pay a fee to allow someone other than me to check in especially if I booked the unit and included their name AT THE TIME THE UNIT WAS BOOKED. Maybe a different story if I booked prime time, and then sold my unit to someone unknown to me to make a profit


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## dandjane1 (Sep 17, 2022)

Snippy said:


> Are you suggesting that each F&F would show up like an owner?  And, not need a guest certificate?  There would be benefits to this.  RCI offers a 5 year guest certificate (or at least used to).  There could be value in such a thing, but what are the chances it would be implemented poorly making a huge mess?
> 
> From FB and TUG  comments  I've seen the following and personally experienced a couple of these:
> Wyndham poorly implemented a new payment system - a month later it is not working correctly requiring owners to spend over an hour on hold to get themselves a password.   Once in, owners are seeing all kinds of errors.
> ...


*I can't believe that any owner, Dev or Resale, does business with the Rip-Off outfit called "Extra Holidays"
That's a sheep waiting to be shorn.*


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## dandjane1 (Sep 17, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Once someone is listed as an owner on a Wyndham account, isn't that owner also deemed legally responsible for payment of all dues on that account?  With this in mind, I think people should think twice before adding another family member on any account with this in mind, especially a larger VIP account that has significant dues attached to it.  My dues for our Wyndham account are around $500/month, that's not an insignificant monthly expense by any means in my view.  Granted, it's not a fortune, but it's something that my children don't currently have any interest in taking on.  This could change in the future since they are all in their early to late twenties so $500/month is still a significant sum of money to them at this stage of their lives.  Sure Wyndham has a deedback program today - but that's always subject to change.  I for one don't want my children to be held legally liable for our timeshare costs unless they actually want to be held liable.


*Fortunately for those of us living in Florida, a TS that is inherited either by means of a will or due to being on a contract as an "owner", cannot be forced to take possession after the death of the one who bequeathed it. There are conditions: No acknowledgement, no payment of any charges, MFs, etc. It would be better to have an attorney weigh in on this..................*


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## dandjane1 (Sep 17, 2022)

dori47 said:


> Direct family like your parents or your children I don't think should need a guest certificate, so that is who should be on the list. Siblings maybe not. But it is my unit, I should be able to have anyone check in and use it. Why should I have to pay a fee to allow someone other than me to check in especially if I booked the unit and included their name AT THE TIME THE UNIT WAS BOOKED. Maybe a different story if I booked prime time, and then sold my unit to someone unknown to me to make a profit


*Wyndham issues a GC automatically, even for owners. I don't know if this counts toward the limit of 15 GCs per MM points. Maybe not.*


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## paxsarah (Sep 17, 2022)

dandjane1 said:


> a TS that is inherited either by means of a will or *due to being on a contract as an "owner"*


This is a contradiction. It's not being an "owner" (not sure why the scare quotes) - they're an owner. If a co-owner dies, it's not inherited by the other owner(s), and can't be refused as such.


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## chapjim (Sep 17, 2022)

dandjane1 said:


> *I can't believe that any owner, Dev or Resale, does business with the Rip-Off outfit called "Extra Holidays"
> That's a sheep waiting to be shorn.*



One should be careful making conclusory, categorical statements like this.

I have had one experience with EH and it went very well.  I was paid more for the week than I would have rented it for (if I were still renting, which I am not).  Based on that single transaction, I carefully selected two more weeks and gave them to EH.  I think it may be possible to reduce one's risk to an acceptable level.  It will be several months before I know the results.


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## chapjim (Sep 17, 2022)

dandjane1 said:


> *Wyndham issues a GC automatically, even for owners. I don't know if this counts toward the limit of 15 GCs per MM points. Maybe not.*




Huh?  Where did this idea come from?


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## chapjim (Sep 17, 2022)

dandjane1 said:


> *Fortunately for those of us living in Florida, a TS that is inherited either by means of a will or due to being on a contract as an "owner", cannot be forced to take possession after the death of the one who bequeathed it. There are conditions: No acknowledgement, no payment of any charges, MFs, etc. It would be better to have an attorney weigh in on this..................*



In addition to what @paxsarah said, the ability to decline an inheritance is hardly unique to Florida.


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## A.Win (Sep 17, 2022)

Ron Parise has the right answer. Wyndham has created a mess by not defining "commercial activity" and not defining "friends and family". In our opinion, every owner should have X number of guests. It doesn't matter if they are family, friends, or strangers. Who cares? Why does Wyndham need to know this? Therefore, this family and friends list is not needed. If you are a reclusive only child with no friends and family, you should be able to make a reservation for a stranger at any price. To me, this is not different than making a reservation for your own child. In both cases, an owner is making an extra reservation and one unit is not available.

Some people seem to think you are a commercial renter or you are not. There is a huge gray area. Is renting for $50 commercial? for MFs only? in cases where you have a medical emergency? Can I make a reservation for my friend's friend? Will Wyndham interview the guest to determine our exact relationship? How about a situation where you make a reservation for yourself, but you are also willing to stay home or travel to another place. Can you not advertise this? Why if your brother wants to stay there more than you do (and he will pay you for it)? 

Why in the world does Wyndham want to police all of this? I believe in keeping in simple.


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## pauljeffrey10 (Sep 17, 2022)

What we need most is a FAMILY member list that is verified with Wyndham that is exempt from the priority date owner restrictions. There are numerous times when I would like to allow my adult son or daughter (and family) to use our ownership - but it is most often at a resort that is a prime resort during prime time. Yes, Wyndham says 2 per year are allowed, but there have been mistakes where reservations are cancelled in error.


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## auntiepen (Sep 18, 2022)

chapjim said:


> Huh?  Where did this idea come from?


Yes, I also get 15GC yearly
@chapjim 
When you rented it to EH , did you ask for suggestions on the location or just randomly pick places.


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## chapjim (Sep 18, 2022)

auntiepen said:


> Yes, I also get 15GC yearly
> @chapjim
> When you rented it to EH , did you ask for suggestions on the location or just randomly pick places.



I get fifteen as well.  My question was about the assertion that Wyndham issues a GC even for owner-occupied reservations and a question whether that counted against the annual allotment of GCs.  This is total nonsense.

I very carefully selected places and times.


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## Pink_Warrior (Sep 18, 2022)

chapjim said:


> I get fifteen as well.  My question was about the assertion that Wyndham issues a GC even for owner-occupied reservations and a question whether that counted against the annual allotment of GCs.  This is total nonsense.
> 
> I very carefully selected places and times.



How long did it take for them to list on EH?


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## Richelle (Sep 18, 2022)

A.Win said:


> Ron Parise has the right answer. Wyndham has created a mess by not defining "commercial activity" and not defining "friends and family". In our opinion, every owner should have X number of guests. It doesn't matter if they are family, friends, or strangers. Who cares? Why does Wyndham need to know this? Therefore, this family and friends list is not needed. If you are a reclusive only child with no friends and family, you should be able to make a reservation for a stranger at any price. To me, this is not different than making a reservation for your own child. In both cases, an owner is making an extra reservation and one unit is not available.
> 
> Some people seem to think you are a commercial renter or you are not. There is a huge gray area. Is renting for $50 commercial? for MFs only? in cases where you have a medical emergency? Can I make a reservation for my friend's friend? Will Wyndham interview the guest to determine our exact relationship? How about a situation where you make a reservation for yourself, but you are also willing to stay home or travel to another place. Can you not advertise this? Why if your brother wants to stay there more than you do (and he will pay you for it)?
> 
> Why in the world does Wyndham want to police all of this? I believe in keeping in simple.


They want to police this because owners are complaining they cannot get what they want, because people are selling reservations. The same reservations they want. Wyndham has defined commercial use as advertising rentals in places like Facebook, AirBNB, VRBO, Redweek, etc.  They are asking guests how they know the owner. It happened to me when I put a room in my step-sisters name. I’ve heard it happening to others as well.  Unfortunately, Wyndham makes the rules and they get to decide when you can use your guest certificates. You can agree with them or not, it doesn’t matter.  They can take away guest certificates entirely. Unless you’re willing to waste money on a lawyer and drag it out in court, or you exit your ownership, you’ll have to deal with it. Did they create the problem?  They definitely got that ball rolling by allowing their sales people to tell people they can rent. Regardless, the directory said it’s for personal use and enjoyment. Not for other people’s use and enjoyment.  Many of those people who argue that the sales person said they can do it, so they have a right to, also say that they know sales people lie. You cannot have it both ways.  If you’re one of those people who profited off your timeshare, I get why you’re frustrated, but the list is so Wyndham doesn’t target the wrong people. People who are genuinely sending friends and family on vacation. Would it be nice if I didn’t have to use a guest certificate for them?  Absolutely, but it’s not a requirement for me. I mainly want it so Wyndham doesn’t think I’m renting to strangers. They can probably tell that by the fact that I use the same family members names multiple times, but a list would be nice.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 18, 2022)

I take that back.  I think I would add my sisters to the Wyndham friends and family list, and maybe Rick's brother, but unfortunately, he is not long for this world as a smoker for so many years, unfortunately.


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## A.Win (Sep 18, 2022)

Thanks for your explanation. Can someone tell me who is a friend and who is not a friend? Is my cousin's friend considered my friend? And can you collect money from your friends and family, or is this commercial? Even if you don't collect money from them, your friends and family could repay you in another way at another time. Can you advertise to your friends and groups on Facebook? How about TUG? Those that post a lot consider each other as friends, right? There are so many gray areas. More guidance from Wyndham is needed.

If people are selling too many reservations to strangers, why can't Wyndham continue to lower the number of guest certificates? Or charge more money for them? Wyndham should not be scrutinizing the exact relationship between the guest and the owner. It is also very easy for Wyndham owners to tell strangers to pretend to be friends. If Wyndham salespeople lie so freely, why not Wyndham owners and guests?


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## Richelle (Sep 18, 2022)

A.Win said:


> Thanks for your explanation. Can someone tell me who is a friend and who is not a friend? Is my cousin's friend considered my friend? And can you collect money from your friends and family, or is this commercial? Even if you don't collect money from them, your friends and family could repay you in another way at another time. Can you advertise to your friends and groups on Facebook? How about TUG? Those that post a lot consider each other as friends, right? There are so many gray areas. More guidance from Wyndham is needed.
> 
> If people are selling too many reservations to strangers, why can't Wyndham continue to lower the number of guest certificates? Or charge more money for them? Wyndham should not be scrutinizing the exact relationship between the guest and the owner. It is also very easy for Wyndham owners to tell strangers to pretend to be friends. If Wyndham salespeople lie so freely, why not Wyndham owners and guests?



I do not think anyone is suggesting Wyndham scrutinize who is on the list.  Friends and Family.  If someone designates someone as friends and family, that should be all they need.  Could someone put an absolute stranger on the list to rent to them?  Sure, but that's why they should limit how many times the list can be modified.  If they cannot change the list all that often, it's less likely to be abused because mega renters wont be able to repeatedly change it for each reservation they sell.  

I do not see them reducing the number of GC an owner can use.  Non-VIP only get two a year.  VIPs get more.  They paid for that benefit.  They could stop offering that to new VIPs, like they did with unlimited housekeeping, but I do not see them taking that benefit away.  During COVID, they tried to stop allowing GC at all resort and that created a huge backlash.  That told them how seriously their owners take the ability to use GC.  That's why they have a more targeted policy instead of a blanket policy.  What I could potentially see them doing, is reducing the number of GC an owner can buy, after they run out of free ones.  Or increasing the price.

As far as collecting money from friends and family, they won't know if no one tells them.  Technically you are breaking the commercial use if you advertise on your personal Facebook page, but again, they wont know if no one tells them.  Advertising on TUG would definitely be seen as commercial use.  Advertising is advertising, regardless of the platform.  No one said anything about charging a friend or family member for a reservation, so I do not think they consider that commercial use at the moment.


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