# The End of Microsoft ... As We Know It



## MULTIZ321 (Jul 1, 2012)

The End of Microsoft ... As We Know It - by Todd Hixon/ Contributor/ Entrepreneurs / Forbes.com


Richard


----------



## Talent312 (Jul 1, 2012)

MS's obit and that of the PC has been written many times before, only to be proven premature. While its true that MS is increasingly irrelevant to peep who walk around with Apple & Android products, it's still the OS of choice for legacy desktop systems and networks, and it's software will remain embedded in mainstream and business PC systems for a long time to come.


----------



## hypnotiq (Jul 16, 2012)

If I had a $1 for everytime I heard of our demise.


----------



## Ken555 (Jul 17, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> If I had a $1 for everytime I heard of our demise.



MS will be around in 10 years, but I think it's up for debate as to what products it will have at the time and how much influence it will have on business... My bet is that the erosion of MS will only continue.


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Jul 17, 2012)

The analyst give himself an out when he says the end of Microsoft "as we know it".  The article implies, however, that MS is on the way out.  It would be nice if the self-proclaimed fortune teller bothered to look at the latest edition of Microsoft Office.  The new MS office is firmly planted in the cloud.  It is touch screen oriented and tablet friendly.  The reviewer was very impressed with the look, feel, and improvements.  He was particularly impressed that he could start a Word document on his PC and pick it up, exactly where his cursor left off, on his Windows 8 Tablet.

Office is a huge product.  Nothing else compares.  It dominates business and the business person takes his work home.  Now he or she will be able to take it home on a tablet, PC, ultrabook, combo device, and possibly a phone.  That may very well drive the sale of windows 8 products.

It seems to me that this fortune teller, ie analyst, looked into his crystal ball without first looking into the facts.


----------



## tschwa2 (Jul 17, 2012)

I always had msnbc as my home page on my desk top and I  noticed recently that it has changed to nbcnews.com.


----------



## MULTIZ321 (Jul 17, 2012)

tschwa2 said:


> I always had msnbc as my home page on my desk top and I  noticed recently that it has changed to nbcnews.com.




Microsoft, NBC Finally Split, MSNBC.com Becomes NBCNews.com - By Brier Dudley/ Business/ The Seattle Times



Richard


----------



## Passepartout (Jul 17, 2012)

tschwa2 said:


> I always had msnbc as my home page on my desk top and I  noticed recently that it has changed to nbcnews.com.



Happened yesterday within minutes of Comcast taking over NBC from Microsoft. Look for a 'New' MSNBC.com more closely allied with the TV network.

Jim


----------



## DazedandConfused (Jul 17, 2012)

I have been a PC user since day one, yet everyone in my family is a Mac user.

I can say that Macs are clearly better for most users and if I was not so used to PC, I would make the switch.

The interesting thing is that I need a new computer and may order one NOW to get Windows 7, so I don't have to get Windows 8. I see no advantage to touch screen and cloud based computing for my needs. Also, it seems Micorsoft has buggy versions of new releases.

The funny thing is that when a new Mac OS or versions is released, it is actually a better product. Thus, Microsoft is NO longer relevant as they used to be. My kids and all their friends all run Mac and use ZERO Microsoft products.


----------



## timeos2 (Jul 17, 2012)

Those who think Microsoft will still be the dominate force they were 5 years ago in another 5 years probably also thought nothing could stop Lotus, Wordperfect, Borland, or Novell, among others, yet where are they now? 

The days of glory for Microsoft are long gone. They won't disappear - especially on the old desktop - but they just won't matter anymore.  It has been proven that the future is portable & compact - not adding millions more lines of bloated code to what is now a horribly flawed legacy system. They have failed on everything they ever tried to do that was unique or portable based - even their big sellers - Windows/DOS and Office - where other peoples products they bought. Their homegrown stuff with the possible exception of the Xbox have almost all been failures. They just don't matter anymore.


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Jul 17, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Those who think Microsoft will still be the dominate force they were 5 years ago in another 5 years probably also thought nothing could stop Lotus, Wordperfect, Borland, or Novell, among others, yet where are they now?
> 
> The days of glory for Microsoft are long gone. They won't disappear - especially on the old desktop - but they just won't matter anymore.  It has been proven that the future is portable & compact - not adding millions more lines of bloated code to what is now a horribly flawed legacy system. They have failed on everything they ever tried to do that was unique or portable based - even their big sellers - Windows/DOS and Office - where other peoples products they bought. Their homegrown stuff with the possible exception of the Xbox have almost all been failures. They just don't matter anymore.



Once again, I think some actual facts would help the discussion.  Windows 8 is NOT bloated code (per tech reviewers).  It is light and quick and extremely suited for smaller processors such as ARM.  Many hardware manufacturers see a big future in ultrabooks which are extremely light and thin but can be used for business purposes.  There are products on the way that are combo products that can act as a ultrabook or "tablet".  They will run windows 8.

I can't see the future.  The present line of windows 8 products in phones, ultra books, and "surface" or tablet devices already scheduled for release look excellent.


----------



## DazedandConfused (Jul 17, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Those who think Microsoft will still be the dominate force they were 5 years ago in another 5 years probably also thought nothing could stop Lotus, Wordperfect, Borland, or Novell, among others, yet where are they now?
> 
> The days of glory for Microsoft are long gone.



It is very simple - everyone just prefers Apple now. 

Finally the better product won!


----------



## ace2000 (Jul 17, 2012)

DazedandConfused said:


> It is very simple - everyone just prefers Apple now.
> 
> Finally the better product won!



Prefer Apple on what?


----------



## ricoba (Jul 17, 2012)

DazedandConfused said:


> It is very simple - everyone just prefers Apple now.
> 
> Finally the better product won!



Well maybe, and maybe not.

I worked for a few years in an Apple dominant office.  The Mac was truly a thing of beauty and worked lovely, most of the time.  I even went out and bought a iPad, and I do truly love it.  My wife and daughter own two iPhone's and they have iPod's.

But, as I sit here at my own desktop writing this I am writing from a HP All in One Desktop PC.  Sure, it's not as pretty as the Mac, but screen size is the same but there is no doubt the Mac screen is better.  But the speed, the memory and the functionality overall on this $400 desktop PC is far better than the $1200 Mac.

At the office I had to learn or tried to learn Apple office applications such as Pages and Numbers.  There is no comparison in my view between these products and Office. Office is the leader of the pack and will be I predict far into the future.  

I admit it's just me and these are just my opinions, but I don't believe I am alone.  Millions of people don't need pretty and cool, they need functionality and performance. Until Apple can achieve that at the same price level as the PC, then Microsoft and the PC will be in the game for years and years to come.

Again, just my two cents, and yes, I know the Apple MacHeads don't see it, since they are (at least many of them are) blinded by the Apple myth and all things Apple.  But hey that's OK, that's what freedom of choice is all about.


----------



## klpca (Jul 17, 2012)

ricoba said:


> Well maybe, and maybe not.
> 
> I worked for a few years in an Apple dominant office.  The Mac was truly a thing of beauty and worked lovely, most of the time.  I even went out and bought a iPad, and I do truly love it.  My wife and daughter own two iPhone's and they have iPod's.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of this. I use both products. Apple is pretty good, but not perfect by any means. I have an ipad and an iphone. Now that I have been using them regularly I can see some of the limitations. Mostly how darn often Safari crashes. It's really kind of ridiculous, and I'm amazed that it is so readily tolerated. I'll admit, I'm using a Ipad1, but I'm still seeing a lot of crashing, even with the latest software upgrades. 

At the office, I use Microsoft products exclusively, and so does everyone else in my office. Excel is the accepted format - both within our office and within our client's offices. I cannot imagine trying so send something to a client using an apple platform.


----------



## CapriciousC (Jul 17, 2012)

I just don't see the PC platform dying out completely.  Perhaps it will become specialized to certain markets, such as businesses which use applications that the Mac just doesn't support well (or at all).  I work in engineering, and frankly I don't see us ever completely switching over to Macs.  We provide customer applications that will run on a Mac platform, but the applications that we use in design (like CATIA, Matlab, InDesign and Illustrator) don't seem to be very stable on a Mac platform.


----------



## Ken555 (Jul 17, 2012)

CapriciousC said:


> I just don't see the PC platform dying out completely.  Perhaps it will become specialized to certain markets, such as businesses which use applications that the Mac just doesn't support well (or at all).  I work in engineering, and frankly I don't see us ever completely switching over to Macs.  We provide customer applications that will run on a Mac platform, but the applications that we use in design (like CATIA, Matlab, InDesign and Illustrator) don't seem to be very stable on a Mac platform.



This may be true today, but for reference you might find it interesting that Illustrator was first released on the Mac.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Illustrator#Versions_1.E2.80.931.6_.28Illustrator_88.29


----------



## Ken555 (Jul 17, 2012)

Here we go again.



ricoba said:


> I am writing from a HP All in One Desktop PC.  Sure, it's not as pretty as the Mac, but screen size is the same but there is no doubt the Mac screen is better.  But the speed, the memory and the functionality overall on this $400 desktop PC is far better than the $1200 Mac.



Sorry, but I really doubt this is accurate.



> At the office I had to learn or tried to learn Apple office applications such as Pages and Numbers.  There is no comparison in my view between these products and Office. Office is the leader of the pack and will be I predict far into the future.



I believe you've posted this before, and I replied along the lines of...

Apple's office productivity applications are very easy to learn and effective applications, read and write to MS Office format, and I've never seen them as the stumbling block to successfull office efficiency. Also, this is a decision your office made, since Microsoft Office has been on the Mac since day one...in fact, Microsoft first released Word and Excel for Mac, long before Windows. Many Mac offices that do not own Microsoft Office elect to buy Apple's software as it is significantly less expensive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_office#Macintosh_versions



> I admit it's just me and these are just my opinions, but I don't believe I am alone.  Millions of people don't need pretty and cool, they need functionality and performance. Until Apple can achieve that at the same price level as the PC, then Microsoft and the PC will be in the game for years and years to come.



While you may think it was Apple's goal to replace every PC with a Mac, I think the truth is quite different. Apple needs competition and with Microsoft as a competitor, Apple's job is fairly easy. As for price, take a look at Apple's sales of their Mac product line and I think you'll realize there is absolutely no reason for them to become more price competitive with outdated cheaper Windows computers... (by the way, when you compare a similar computer from, say, Dell and Apple the price difference is less; you have an extreme example with the HP).



> Again, just my two cents, and yes, I know the Apple MacHeads don't see it, since they are (at least many of them are) blinded by the Apple myth and all things Apple.  But hey that's OK, that's what freedom of choice is all about.



Err...this is how many Mac users felt about Windows for a very long time. And, it's not like Apple has steered us wrong, has it? I prefer my Mac and Apple products (they just work!) and often see the difficulty of Windows. But, I don't want it to change - after all, I operate a business supporting others with many hundreds of Windows computers and if they didn't need as much support as they do, my business would be quite different.


----------



## JeffW (Jul 17, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> MS will be around in 10 years, but I think it's up for debate as to what products it will have at the time and how much influence it will have on business... My bet is that the erosion of MS will only continue.



Windows systems used to be what, 90% of the market?  In that sense, did they have anyplace but down to go?  [I just did a search, one website listed them at 84% now.]  Will they go down to 60%-50% in 10 years, maybe.  But I'd still take 50% of the computer marketplace anyday.  

I'l admit that when it comes to phones or tablets, Microsoft is WAY behind.  But their OS's and Office software still lead the industry. 

Jeff


----------



## CapriciousC (Jul 17, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> This may be true today, but for reference you might find it interesting that Illustrator was first released on the Mac.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Illustrator#Versions_1.E2.80.931.6_.28Illustrator_88.29



I actually learned both Illustrator and Photoshop on a Mac, as did all of the graphic designers that I work with.  Transitioning to a PC platform took some adjusting, but it's what my company uses, so we all did it.  For the types of stuff I do at home with personal photos, etc., the Mac version of Photoshop is fine.  At work, though, I need way more capability and the Mac versions of the Adobe products just don't support it.  

I think that many of our graphic designers would prefer to work on a Mac platform, but since we're an aerospace manufacturer, and Mac won't support the technical design software we use, the majority wins.  We actually do a lot of OpenGL programming as well, which is supported on the Mac platform, but inertia dictates that we're sticking with what we've already got.  I can see Mac taking over the majority of personal applications, but as previously mentioned, manufacturing companies (aircraft, cars, heavy machinery) aren't likely to make wholesale changes.


----------



## DazedandConfused (Jul 17, 2012)

JeffW said:


> Windows systems used to be what, 90% of the market?  In that sense, did they have anyplace but down to go?  [I just did a search, one website listed them at 84% now.]  Will they go down to 60%-50% in 10 years, maybe.



I can tell you that high school and college kids are probably 80% Mac


----------



## Ken555 (Jul 17, 2012)

JeffW said:


> Windows systems used to be what, 90% of the market?  In that sense, did they have anyplace but down to go?  [I just did a search, one website listed them at 84% now.]  Will they go down to 60%-50% in 10 years, maybe.  But I'd still take 50% of the computer marketplace anyday.
> 
> I'l admit that when it comes to phones or tablets, Microsoft is WAY behind.  But their OS's and Office software still lead the industry.
> 
> Jeff



I absolutely agree with you. This still doesn't reject my point of view.


----------



## Ken555 (Jul 17, 2012)

CapriciousC said:


> I actually learned both Illustrator and Photoshop on a Mac, as did all of the graphic designers that I work with.  Transitioning to a PC platform took some adjusting, but it's what my company uses, so we all did it.  For the types of stuff I do at home with personal photos, etc., the Mac version of Photoshop is fine.  At work, though, I need way more capability and the Mac versions of the Adobe products just don't support it.
> 
> I think that many of our graphic designers would prefer to work on a Mac platform, but since we're an aerospace manufacturer, and Mac won't support the technical design software we use, the majority wins.  We actually do a lot of OpenGL programming as well, which is supported on the Mac platform, but inertia dictates that we're sticking with what we've already got.  I can see Mac taking over the majority of personal applications, but as previously mentioned, manufacturing companies (aircraft, cars, heavy machinery) aren't likely to make wholesale changes.



Yeah, it's too bad this emphasis changed over time. Mac was the only choice for graphics for many years and then Adobe - with the full cooperation of Microsoft - wanted to stop being reliant on Steve Jobs and Apple...I don't think I need to go into the history between Jobs and Adobe with you, do I? I remember selling $20k Mac systems back in the early 90s specifically for designers to use Adobe products... As for manufacturing, that was always a difficult market for Apple, along with other larger companies, since the Macs were relegated to the marketing depts, etc. Autocad and a few others kept going with Mac but even they changed over time due to demand. Apple, unfortunately, changed their opinion of business every few years to the point where few other vendors could rely upon their ability to promote business use of the computers, etc. In the last ~8 years or so it's gotten much better, though.


----------



## Talent312 (Jul 17, 2012)

Regardless of the Apple vs. MS product debate, we may be seeing
a case of "what goes around, comes around," on a historical-scale.

When IBM hired MS to provide an OS for their PC, they made an error.
They allowed MS to market DOS to others, laughing at the very idea.
Thus began IBM's slide into PC oblivion and MS's ascendancy.

Meanwhile, Apple was a 2-bit hardware-maker, playing 2nd-fiddle.

Now, it's Apple who's driving the bus and MS turn to slide.
A hardware-maker, a proprietary hardware-maker has MS on the ropes.
The irony cannot be lost on Gates. It must really bite his hind-end.

Could this be the "lathe of heaven" at work?


----------



## ricoba (Jul 18, 2012)

DazedandConfused said:


> I can tell you that high school and college kids are probably 80% Mac



While I really don't care one way or the other, at best your argument is anecdotal.

I think for example due to the large amounts of games for the PC, most avid gamers still use a PC.  Anecdotally, most gamers are high school or college aged.


----------



## ricoba (Jul 18, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> Here we go again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah Ken, spoken like a true Mac/Apple aficionado   I won't call you a MACHead or Apple Junkie, since you are a good and true Tugger!


----------



## DazedandConfused (Jul 18, 2012)

ricoba said:


> While I really don't care one way or the other, at best your argument is anecdotal.
> 
> I think for example due to the large amounts of games for the PC, most avid gamers still use a PC.  Anecdotally, most gamers are high school or college aged.



Most gamers are on xbox, iphone or ipad....I have never heard any teen want to buy a PC to play games....you must be "OLD SCHOOL"

Seriously, the future is the teens and almost every teen uses a Mac or wishes they had a Mac. The only reason teens get pc's are because their parents gave them a free one, it is a hand me down, or they can't afford a Mac as some Costco pc specials are $300-$400 and most Macs start at $1,000.

Any super serious gamer out there (college or older) are probably using a suped up PC that costs $2,000-$3,000 and that is a rare thing these days.


----------



## ricoba (Jul 18, 2012)

DazedandConfused said:


> Most gamers are on xbox, iphone or ipad....I have never heard any teen want to buy a PC to play games....you must be "OLD SCHOOL"
> 
> Seriously, the future is the teens and almost every teen uses a Mac or wishes they had a Mac. The only reason teens get pc's are because their parents gave them a free one, it is a hand me down, or they can't afford a Mac as some Costco pc specials are $300-$400 and most Macs start at $1,000.
> 
> Any super serious gamer out there (college or older) are probably using a suped up PC that costs $2,000-$3,000 and that is a rare thing these days.



Again your arguments are anecdotal at best, but I don't want to argue.  

And by the way, I am old school, but I am the dad of a very avid and accomplished 21 year olf gamer and he uses a PC, plus the x-box, playstation and all sorts of other systems, but he won't use a Mac, since the game choices are limited. But heck, what do I know, I am old school.


----------



## Ken555 (Jul 18, 2012)

ricoba said:


> Ah Ken, spoken like a true Mac/Apple aficionado   I won't call you a MACHead or Apple Junkie, since you are a good and true Tugger!



 

I will say that professionally, when we're asked what operating system to purchase by a client, our position is always to stick with what you know since many businesses won't want to spend the time or resources needed to learn a new system. However, for those that do switch to Mac they almost always find, after the learning curve, that they are more productive and generally enjoy using their computer a lot more. On the other hand, we had one client a few years ago that was referred to us by Apple and had an office full of iMacs they had recently bought and were very unhappy with, so my team installed Windows on all of them. Ironically, the only two computers that retained the Mac OS were the accountant and the owner.

---

You know, I've been supporting Windows and Macs for a long, long time. I've been through the arguments, discussions etc enough to know that I really don't care what one chooses in the end, but I do care how they reached their decision. There's so much misinformation out there that sometimes I feel compelled to speak up and say what I know. In this instance, it's clear and indisputable - Microsoft Word and Excel were released for the Mac in the 80s (I used Microsoft Word 4.0 on my Mac in '88). Choose Windows because it's cheaper or because it runs a specialized application that simply won't run fast enough in emulation (or because you don't want to use Apple's Boot Camp), or because you have 000's invested in software or time learning how to use it...but don't choose it because you think it won't get the job done. All I'm saying is to make an intelligent choice, and I suspect most would objectively agree with me.


----------



## Ken555 (Jul 18, 2012)

ricoba said:


> Again your arguments are anecdotal at best, but I don't want to argue.
> 
> And by the way, I am old school, but I am the dad of a very avid and accomplished 21 year olf gamer and he uses a PC, plus the x-box, playstation and all sorts of other systems, but he won't use a Mac, since the game choices are limited. But heck, what do I know, I am old school.



Anecdotally, I had a conversation about this exact topic with a 17 year old a few months ago. He has a MacBook Pro that he uses for schoolwork and research. And he has a console (or more than one) for games, Xbox etc. When I asked if he plays games on the Mac, he expressed dismay at the choices available for Mac compared to the console, and that it would be a waste of his time to play games on his Mac. I thought this rather funny, since there are a number of great games available for Mac, but he didn't even think it was a real option. Those I know in the game industry support this belief, fwiw...


----------



## Beefnot (Jul 18, 2012)

All we had were Macs when I was in college, and I loved them at the time. But when I was introduced to Windows 3.1, it just felt more grown up and less like an OS that condescended to me. Every time I have to deal with Macs now, I get so irritated. The too cool animations, that kcuffing one button, productivity-killing mouse, the weird menu system. 

Apple will never dominate the PC market. They will always be a smaller player, but they will be the most profitable. Their margins are incredible because they control their value chain, and they can price emaelves at a premium.  If the PC market continues to shrink, perhaps that will not matter as much anyway if they continue to dominate the phone and tablet spaces.

Windows 8 is a home run swing that could catapult MS into the stratosphere or be so disastrous as tomake Vista look like a minor success.  It is legacy-defining for Ballmer. I believe from what I have seen so far that it will be a runaway success. It is that good.


----------



## Ken555 (Jul 18, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> Every time I have to deal with Macs now, I get so irritated. The too cool animations, that kcuffing one button, productivity-killing mouse, the weird menu system.



FACT CHECK: it may look like a one-button mouse. it may feel like a one-button mouse. but it's really a two-button mouse (and a whole lotta more). 

http://www.apple.com/magicmouse/



> *Two-button click*
> 
> Magic Mouse functions as a two-button mouse when you enable  Secondary Click in System Preferences. Left-handed users can reassign  left and right click, as well.


----------



## timeos2 (Jul 18, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> Windows 8 is a home run swing that could catapult MS into the stratosphere or be so disastrous as tomake Vista look like a minor success.  It is legacy-defining for Ballmer. I believe from what I have seen so far that it will be a runaway success. It is that good.



Virtually every review of Win8 as a desktop option has been extremely negative and most feel it will make Vista - an unmitigated disaster - look like a run away success. It IS Balmers legacy coming to roost and his track record is below zero. This should put the nail in the coffin.  

Thankfully we may not have to deal with this arrogant and untalented group as a major player much longer. Hopefully those that really do innovate and improve the computing world will become the real forces as appears to be happening in the smart phone & tablet world.  It has been Apple for a few years but now that they are so successful others - far more talented - are almost bound to step up.  The tech world may get exciting again after nearly a decade of near standstill under the MS rein where the "next best thing" is always a delayed release or two away but never really comes.


----------



## Beefnot (Jul 18, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Virtually every review of Win8 as a desktop option has been extremely negative and most feel it will make Vista - an unmitigated disaster - look like a run away success. It IS Balmers legacy coming to roost and his track record is below zero. This should put the nail in the coffin.



That is absolutely untrue. Come on, Carolinian, chill out with the ridiculous hyperbolic inaccuracies. The reception has been largely positive, the negative being the degree of change and initial learning curve for users.


----------



## Beefnot (Jul 18, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> FACT CHECK: it may look like a one-button mouse. it may feel like a one-button mouse. but it's really a two-button mouse (and a whole lotta more).
> 
> http://www.apple.com/magicmouse/
> 
> [/LIST]



I stand corrected. They must have introduced that when I wasn't looking. It is too cool for me anyway nonetheless. I prefer the straightforward functionality.


----------



## timeos2 (Jul 18, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> That is absolutely untrue. Come on, Carolinian, chill out with the ridiculous hyperbolic inaccuracies. The reception has been largely positive, the negative being the degree of change and initial learning curve for users.



Untrue? What planet of Microsoft Apologists are you living on. Just a taste of the overwhelmingly negative reviews: 

Business Insider

Phys-Org

Redmond Channel Partner 

Beta News

Reuters

Just the tip of the iceburg (And it appears Win8 will make the Titanic seem to be a successful cruise).  It does seem that MS will finally be able to say that Win Millennium and Vista weren't their biggest flops of all time.  And this on top of a virtual collapse of the desktop market except for limited business use does not bode well.  Bye bye MS dominance - we sure won't miss you!


----------



## CapriciousC (Jul 18, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> Yeah, it's too bad this emphasis changed over time. Mac was the only choice for graphics for many years and then Adobe - with the full cooperation of Microsoft - wanted to stop being reliant on Steve Jobs and Apple...I don't think I need to go into the history between Jobs and Adobe with you, do I? I remember selling $20k Mac systems back in the early 90s specifically for designers to use Adobe products... As for manufacturing, that was always a difficult market for Apple, along with other larger companies, since the Macs were relegated to the marketing depts, etc. Autocad and a few others kept going with Mac but even they changed over time due to demand. Apple, unfortunately, changed their opinion of business every few years to the point where few other vendors could rely upon their ability to promote business use of the computers, etc. In the last ~8 years or so it's gotten much better, though.



Yes, I'm familiar with the history between Jobs and Adobe.  I think, too, that Apple may not have actively courted the manufacturing industry because they don't feel that they can sell enough units to make it worth their while.  And now even if they were interested, they'd have to be able to support applications like CATIA and the various plug-ins to even be marketable.  My group at work recently purchased a CATIA plug-in that sells for close to $100K per license, and it will only run on a 64-bit PC platform.  When you factor in investments like that, Apple would really have to be able to promise the moon to get companies to switch over.

But again, manufacturing is a small segment of the overall market, particularly when you consider how many people have computers in their homes nowadays (my 79-year-old mother-in-law has both a smartphone and a laptop - that's market penetration right there  )

My daughter's elementary school is very "tech-friendly" - they have Smartboards in all the classrooms and the kids have twice weekly technology lessons starting in Pre-K.  They're running everything on a PC platform, but that may have more to do with the Hewlett Packard commercials that have been shot at the school than anything else.


----------



## Beefnot (Jul 18, 2012)

timeos2 said:


> Untrue? What planet of Microsoft Apologists are you living on. Just a taste of the overwhelmingly negative reviews:
> 
> Business Insider
> 
> ...



I reread your prior lambaste and I cannot comment on the desktop version of Win8.  I was speaking specifically to their tablet/slate/whatever using Win8.  Engadget, zdnet (aside from that one guy), slashgear, and other sites really like Surface and the touch experience with Win8.  With keyboard and mouse, perhaps the learning curve is very steep.  

You do realize that you have been predicting the demise of MSFT for some time now, right?


----------



## timeos2 (Jul 18, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> I reread your prior lambaste and I cannot comment on the desktop version of Win8.  I was speaking specifically to their tablet/slate/whatever using Win8.  Engadget, zdnet (aside from that one guy), slashgear, and other sites really like Surface and the touch experience with Win8.  With keyboard and mouse, perhaps the learning curve is very steep.
> 
> You do realize that you have been predicting the demise of MSFT for some time now, right?



Yes, and I'm happy to note it is well underway.  MS has virtually no presence in any arena except desktop & that is dying fast. The chances of them suddenly getting traction in other areas get less likely everyday. No one is predicting that they can overtake Apple or Android for mobile computing and that is the only growth market now. 1.7% and falling.  Hardly a vote of confidence.


----------



## Ken555 (Jul 18, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> I stand corrected. They must have introduced that when I wasn't looking. It is too cool for me anyway nonetheless. I prefer the straightforward functionality.



Then just use a third party mouse. I've used a Logitech three button mouse for years. Why do you feel you just have to use Apple's mouse? It's just a USB mouse, after all.


----------



## Beefnot (Jul 18, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> Then just use a third party mouse. I've used a Logitech three button mouse for years. Why do you feel you just have to use Apple's mouse? It's just a USB mouse, after all.



Touche.  Now, if only I liked using Macs.  Ipad's great, have two of 'em.


----------



## Passepartout (Jul 18, 2012)

Shouldn't have too long to wait to find out whether Win8 is a trick or treat. Release date was announced as October 26. 

So, by Holiday time this year, wishes for under the tree will be between a shiny new tablet; there will be several to choose from on all platforms. Or a new desktop or laptop, and the choice of Apple or Win8. I'm going out on a limb and wager that along with all the political commercials, the computer hardware makers will be bombarding us with 'Buy Me, Buy Me, Buy Me!

Jim


----------



## Beefnot (Jul 18, 2012)

If Win8 is as horrible as Timeolinian proclaims, Apple's marketing department will have a cake walk, while we all watch Microsoft declare bankruptcy on Christmas day.


----------



## ricoba (Jul 18, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> Anecdotally, I had a conversation about this exact topic with a 17 year old a few months ago. He has a MacBook Pro that he uses for schoolwork and research. And he has a console (or more than one) for games, Xbox etc. When I asked if he plays games on the Mac, he expressed dismay at the choices available for Mac compared to the console, and that it would be a waste of his time to play games on his Mac. I thought this rather funny, since there are a number of great games available for Mac, but he didn't even think it was a real option. Those I know in the game industry support this belief, fwiw...



I agree.  I think if there were more games available for the Mac my son and millions of other gamers would spend the big money to get games on a Mac platform  I admit that playing games on a 27" Mac would be a great thing to do if I were a game player (I guess it doesn't matter on which system you play solitaire, bookworm or video poker!!!  )



Ken555 said:


> FACT CHECK: it may look like a one-button mouse. it may feel like a one-button mouse. but it's really a two-button mouse (and a whole lotta more).
> 
> http://www.apple.com/magicmouse/
> 
> [/LIST]



Again, right, the Magic Mouse is a wonderful mouse and feels great in your hand.  I "trained" it to do right click etc.   Though, even my Mac everything employer admitted that the battery cover is a poor design, because it always fell off.


----------



## ricoba (Jul 18, 2012)

Beefnot said:


> If Win8 is as horrible as Timeolinian proclaims, Apple's marketing department will have a cake walk, while we all watch Microsoft declare bankruptcy on Christmas day.



Nope, that won't happen until April 24th, 2013 the same day when VAC is double FB on the big board!  :hysterical:


----------



## Clemson Fan (Jul 19, 2012)

I actually got my first iMac a couple of years ago because I hated Vista.  However, I really do like Windows 7 and I installed it with bootcamp on my fairly new MacBook Air and that's what I almost exclusively use it in.

I'm NOT looking forward to Windows 8!  Leo Laporte (I listen to his podcasts most weeks) doesn't seem to like Windows 8 (he's been beta testing it) very much and he worries that the average consumer and especially businesses won't like it at all.  I'm seriously thinking of upgrading all of my offices 4-5 year old computers before October so I can get Windows 7 machines and not have to deal with Windows 8.

I don't think Windows Phone 8 stands a snowballs chance in hell of being successful.  iPhone 5 will be coming out around the same time along with lots of new Jelly Bean phones.  Leo Laporte also has stopped recommending WP.


----------



## hypnotiq (Jul 23, 2012)

This thread has been largely entertaining.


----------



## Numismatist (Jul 23, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> If I had a $1 for everytime I heard



I'm sorry, could you repeat that?  I got the Blue Screen of Death...:rofl: :hysterical:


----------



## Ken555 (Jul 23, 2012)

hypnotiq said:


> This thread has been largely entertaining.



At least the Microsoft employees on TUG are optimistic!


----------



## pgnewarkboy (Jul 23, 2012)

Neither MS or Apple pay my taxes or do anything in any way for me.  I basically don't care about either company.

I think, however, that when reviewing MS Windows 8 any reviewer has to look at the entire package including the new MS Office suite which has been revamped and the reviews I read say Improved in look and made to integrate with phone, tablet, ultrabook etc.  There is basically nothing out there for business that matches this suite of productivity software.  It has been the standard for decades.  The windows 8 release is obviously part of an overall strategy involving this blockbuster software and making it all work together on the PC, Ultrabook,phone and tablet or some combination of the tablet and ultrabook.

As a consumer who no longer has any need for the MS office suite I am unlikely to be moved to switch from android to windows 8 based on that factor by itself.  What could make a difference for me is integration with the XBOX which is a product I use virtually every day for gaming, movies, TV, etc.

If I was a small business or large business or an employee of either I might , however, move all my purchases over to MS products including phone on the strength of the new MS Office.  It is well known that people today work in a VIRTUAL word where their office might be their office, a starbucks, their home, or a car.  It would likely be very important and advantageous for me to be able to do my work on any piece of hardware without missing a beat.  That is basically what reviewers are saying at the moment.  Your CURSOR will be at the same place you left it in WORD on your desktop when you open it up on your phone or tablet or ultrabook.

Only time will tell how tight the integration will be across different platforms.  MS Office will be out in October along withi a great deal of new hardware featuring 8.


----------



## Ken555 (Jul 23, 2012)

pgnewarkboy said:


> If I was a small business or large business or an employee of either I might , however, move all my purchases over to MS products including phone on the strength of the new MS Office.  It is well known that people today work in a VIRTUAL word where their office might be their office, a starbucks, their home, or a car.  It would likely be very important and advantageous for me to be able to do my work on any piece of hardware without missing a beat.  That is basically what reviewers are saying at the moment.  Your CURSOR will be at the same place you left it in WORD on your desktop when you open it up on your phone or tablet or ultrabook.



I can see why you would think this might be enough to justify further commitment to Microsoft or even, as you suggest, to solely purchase from Microsoft. However, in addition to Apple, keep in mind that there are numerous Internet (~cloud) based solutions which many small businesses have migrated to in the last few years (Google Docs, anyone?). While almost all businesses will have MS Office, it's not the only option (and never has been) but does have a loyal following. I use it every day (on my Mac!).


----------



## hypnotiq (Jul 27, 2012)

Ken555 said:


> At least the Microsoft employees on TUG are optimistic!



Is there more than one of us on here?  

There have been some valid points made in here. There have also been some others that just make me :hysterical: 

Just finishing up Windows 8 now (hence me being largely MIA the last several months).

Looking forward to WKORVN and VGC in September for 2 weeks!


----------



## pranas (Jul 27, 2012)

DazedandConfused said:


> It is very simple - everyone just prefers Apple now.
> 
> Finally the better product won!



Not everyone


----------



## pjrose (Jul 27, 2012)

ricoba said:


> Again, just my two cents, and yes, I know the Apple MacHeads don't see it, since they are (at least many of them are) blinded by the Apple myth and all things Apple.  But hey that's OK, that's what freedom of choice is all about.



I'm definitely a MacHead, have used both, consulted and programmed on both.  I love all things Apple, and yes, some of it is the "cool" factor.  I also think they are simply better.  Nonetheless, I use Microsoft Office on my Macs.  I preferred WordPerfect way back when (anyone remember "reveal codes" which was a lot more useful than the slightly similar thing on Word?).  MS Office apps work (though some parts are pretty cumbersome) and have always been transportable, hence the problem suggested by klpca below is not an issue. 



klpca said:


> At the office, I use Microsoft products exclusively, and so does everyone else in my office. Excel is the accepted format - both within our office and within our client's offices. I cannot imagine trying so send something to a client using an apple platform.


Excel, Word, PowerPoint, etc move from one platform to the other.  No problem at all.


----------

