# Sandcastle P'town owners -Festiva



## Laurie

I was told the resort had "been sold" to a new owner... huh? I thought we interval owners were the owners...

What I've gleaned so far: there's a new "trustee" who now owns all the unsold units(??) - Festiva Resorts is in there somehow, new management??, there is now a sales office onsite, they will be undertaking major renovations "to bring it up to II standards" - they are initiating a points system, and plan to meet with all current owners - in person!

MF's are going up by $65/studio and almost $100/1-BR. Possible special assessments which they hope to know soon. A newsletter will be mailed to us shortly  

If anyone has further info, please post - did anyone here know about this, how it happened, and who decided on Festiva?


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## Craig

*IVS Realty*

I spoke with someone at www.ivsrealty.com about a month ago...they list a lot of the Cape Cod resorts. I was interested in the Sandcastle and was inquiring about resales. I was told that IVS realty bought all the unsold weeks and they were listing them on their website. He was supposed to call me back when he had all the weeks and their prices figured out. But now I'm not so sure I want another week there, if MFs are going up.

The owners did have a $100 assessment last year for upgrades to the roof, swimming pools, and tennis courts. I have not heard of any other assessments at this time.


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## Timesharemogul

*Here's the 411....*

First of all let me say that this news distresses me immensely. As an owner, I had heard rumors and at the past annual meetings which I've attended, when one of the trustees was present they always say that they've been looking into ways to sell off their interest and retire. And, at the last annual owner meetings there was no one from the trustees' office present. If what you've heard is accurate, this is HOW it could've taken place: the "unsold weeks"are the accumulation of never before sold blue and white weeks, plus the repossession of delinquent red-white-and blue weeks. On top of this, the resort is closed about three months every year and those weeks are owned by the trustees (although they do not pay any MFs on them). The trustees can sell their inventory to anyone who will pay the negotiated price and that entitles them to alone have the single largest vote of all owners in a HOA, IF the management had been officially turned over to a HOA WHICH IT HAS LEGALLY NOT. Per the Declaration of condominium, the resort has never been sold out to a point where the resort's management could be turned over to a HOA. Therefore, until the point where the resort was something like 80 or 90% sold out (and I'm just throwing those two percents out as examples as I don't know the requisite) the trustees have the legal right to sell and manage what they own in any way they like. Therefore, they CAN do this. But it makes me sick. The ultimate and commonly frequent problem with companies/developers who come in and buy up what is mostly worthless inventory is that to justify the purchase they turn around and do a purported "upgrade" on all units. This leads to many many owners defaulting on their subsequent payments of assessments and MFs and then deeding back all the valuable weeks to a new developer/trustee. (This sounds like that, doesn't it?) Now, having explained the above to you, I've gotten on the horn and made some calls....here's what I learned.... Cliff Hagberg, the president and owner of IVS Realty in Hyannis (the largest timeshare resale company in New England) is the buyer. Cliff is a Sandcastle owner and I met him several years ago. According to an inside contact, he does plan to do upgrades to Sandcastle, which eventually has to mean special assessments. An upgrade (such as specifially A/C is necessary in order to get I.I. onboard as an exchange company.) 
I'm only guessing, but Festiva's involvement may be as a third alternative exchanging company. I do not know Cliff's involvement if any with Festiva, although one could speculate that perhaps he has an interest in it? In any event, a letter will be forthcoming this fall to all owners and we will supposedly be able to convert our weeks to RCI Points. (I dread to think, but I dare predict the reason why Cliff is buying out and upgrading Sandcastle: His company IVS Realty did Points Conversions at other Cape Cod timeshare resorts and I think they charged over 2 grand per week. He stands to make a killing if he can get people on board with RCI Points. I converted the one week I own at Briarwood- but only after the price was lowered over the course of a few years to $495. (It turns out that RCI only realizes about $200 for a "conversion"- the rest of the money is divvied up between a resort/salesbroker commission.
     There are two good things about this change:  as of right now nothing has changed at the resort- it's the same managers and staff running everything the same. Things probably won't start happening at all  until after the Royal Coacghman building is closed for the season (end of week 43) and until the Dunes building closes at the end of week 48.  And the other good thing is that it is a local who is taking over- Cliff is a yearround Cape resident and I remember meeting him several years ago and him telling me that his wife's #1 favorite timeshare is Sandcastle. (And to be honest, as president of the largest timeshare resale company in New England he has the ability to trade or own anywhere he wants.)
Brian


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## Pat H

Laurie & Brian, thanks for the info and bringing this to our attention. I hate the thought of another assessment and the m/f's going up. Sandcastle is a nice gem with low m/f's.


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## Laurie

Pat H said:


> Sandcastle is a nice gem with low m/f's.



... or was ...   I bought mine back in 2001 from IVS (whose website seemed to never get updated), and I didn't mind last year's assessment because fees had been so reasonable. 

Yes, thanks Brian for so much more info.

The name of the company actually doing this is New England Vacation Services, and I'm not sure what its relationship is to Festiva. I've tried to read up on Festiva here, for the first time, haven't made my way through it all yet - what I've read doesn't sound thrilling, but is there an upside? I wonder whether there will be internal preference for other Festiva resorts, and/or internal trading there for weeks members, or only points ... are there Festiva Points?  I thought that's what was meant, but RCI points would make more sense. 

Guess we'll find out!


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## tombo

I hope you fair better than most resorts do when Festiva takes over. Read the long thread titled "Festiva just bought my resort, how bad is it going to get?" on the buying/selling forum to get an idea of what you have in store for you. You can only internally trade with Festiva(at least this is what Festiva told me) if you swap to their points for $3000 to $6000, plus you give up your deeded week. My advice is to never swap to their points. I watched an e-bay sale for Festiva points recently that didn't even get an offer and the starting bid price was$49. 

They allegedly come in and raid the reserves for "needed upgrades". They raise MF's, and they give out as little financial information as possible.They will assess and do major upgrades because the better the resort looks, the easier it is for them to sell their points. They will try to get majority vote at the resort by repo's and deed backs, which come fairly easily from owners mad about assessments and MF increases.They stood at our annual meeting the first time since they purchased (2008 meeting) and announced that they would take owners weeks back for free from any owner who wanted out.  They also gain control by selling Festiva Points in exchange for ownership of owner's weeks. Every time someone pays Festiva to become a points member, they give up their deed and become Right to Use instead of deeded owners. The week is now owned by Festiva, and festiva owns the vote. With their newly acquired vote, they will vote their employees and their mgt staff onto the board.

I hope your resort fares well, but Festiva Resorts is an expert at buying sold out resorts and ending up with total control of the resort, the mgt, and the board. Like the Boy Scout's motto, "Be Prepared".


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## tombo

This is a recent post from someone else on the Festiva thread on the buying/selling/renting forum:

 "Festiva/ Peppertree@Tamarack 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am an owner @ Pepertree@ Tamarack. I recently received 2 mailings:

a) a nomination form for officers-received after the due date to submit.

b) on the same day I received a letter with 2 things:
1) a list of nominees( guess who picked some of them? how did they get them in on time??)
2) "The approved 2009 Consolidated budget"

Hilites : 6.4% increase in op costs
11.3 % increase in MF
this is approximately $193k more increase in Revenue than expenses, yet they have decreased the money going to reserves by $143k

There is no explanation of where the $193k+ $143K= $326k is going!!!! 

Nor is there any statement as to how much we have (or don't have) in reserve.

There's probably a couple of things here in blatant violation of Wis law,
but with loaded boards, little that can be done.

Be vigilant at your resort--make these guys provide decent management for their fees."


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## Rambler65

[_Message deleted. Posting duplicate or very similar messages is not permitted on these forums._ Dave M, BBS Moderator]


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## Rambler65

For more information on this same subject, go to this thread:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85788


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## dneuser

*Sandcastle Owners Meeting Coming Up*

The next owners meeting is coming up on April 25th.  Is there value in attending?  We've been getting annoying calls from Outfield Marketing who  told us we "won't get the whole story" by attending the meeting and they want to come to our home to "explain" things to us.  I've asked them to mail us information which I have never received.  

I haven't seen information on from other Sandcastle owners on TUG mentioning the meeting.  We live in "downstate" NY but we are willing to make the 5+ hour drive to attend if there will be a decent turnout.  In years past, I've heard that less than 2dozen people show up and votes weren't even taken as the "owner" merely decided what he wanted.  Meetings were moved for his convenience/inconvenience.  It was clear that maintenance fee paying members were superfluous but now our voices may be of value if enough of us care to participate.

I don't plan to sign my weeks over to points.  I'd probably sell before I'd do that.  My husband and I plan to show up to at least hear what's going on before we make any decisions.

Is it too late to do anything about this or can attendees on April 25th make a difference?


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## Timesharemogul

*By All Means Attend It*

I've attended every annual Sandcastle meeting for the past decade. The lightest year had maybe two-three dozen people and there was inclement weather with no issues. The busiest year had every seat in the room filled....and there were no issues that year either- the weather was just very pleasant that April weekend. 

In the end, there may be nothing concrete we as owners can do strictly in terms of being in attendance as there is no vote when the new trustee still owns majority interest. However, it's more a case of "speak now...or forever hold your peace" and it may be the only chance owners will have to get their voices heard by Cliff Hagberg.

Having attended other timeshares' annual meetings in the past when there was an outstanding issue of less relevance and seen smaller issues bring a crowd of hundreds, I will safely predict that attendance at the annual meeting will be so packed that they will not be capable of holding the crowd in the usual space upstairs (in the former lounge). I'd bet the meeting gets moved at the last minute to an area facility capable of holding a larger conference.
    So,do by all means plan to attend!


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## Corky

Are owners planning to stay overnight at Sandcastle to discuss strategy prior to the April 25th meeting?


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## Sou13

*Sandcastle Owners*

We have something very much in common here at Southcape Resort.  If you follow the link in my signature it will take you to the letter we received from Cliff Hagberg, and the following posts should open your eyes to what you *MUST* do to preserve your rights!

You can even email me for the attachments which will spell out for you what you will be signing if you fall for Outfield Marketing's scare tactics.

*DO NOT LET OUTFIELD MARKETING COME TO YOUR HOME!*

I have good reason to suspect that Outfield Marketing is owned by Festiva Resorts.  Cliff Hagberg teamed up with Outfield Marketing and they *illegally* elected themselves Trustees of the Owners' Association.

Our meeting isn't until May 16 so you needed the info in our discussion before we did.  But we all needed it *years ago* when this takeover was in the works.


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## Timesharemogul

*Staying for the meeting*



Corky said:


> Are owners planning to stay overnight at Sandcastle to discuss strategy prior to the April 25th meeting?



Corky,
  I am planning to stay at another of my timeshares across town that weekend. E-mail me if you set up a strategy meeting for Friday night!
Brian


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## PClapham

Anyone attending the Sandcastle meeting-if  you want a voting proxy from us just let me know.
Anita


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## Timesharemogul

*What good is a voting proxy?*

Anita,
In the 10 years I've owned at Sandcastle (9 units and I've attended almost every annual owners' meeting)there has never been a vote on anything. I inquired from the resort manager just why that is, and was told because the trustees owned majority interest and the resort was so far from the stipulation of it being sold to a percentage where a homeowners' association would be required to form....that any voting would be insignificant to the trustees majority interest.
     When the trustees sold their interest to Cliff Hagberg he became the new majority interest holder (him or the company he owns/operates) and thus any "vote" is decided by him or his assigns.
    So please tell me what you're talking about-a voting proxy- for Sandcastle- and what good it would do in the current situation seeing that we as owners have nothing to vote upon ?


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## dneuser

*Sandcastle Owners Meeting Coming Up - April 25th*



Timesharemogul said:


> Anita,
> In the 10 years I've owned at Sandcastle (9 units and I've attended almost every annual owners' meeting)there has never been a vote on anything. I inquired from the resort manager just why that is, and was told because the trustees owned majority interest and the resort was so far from the stipulation of it being sold to a percentage where a homeowners' association would be required to form....that any voting would be insignificant to the trustees majority interest.
> When the trustees sold their interest to Cliff Hagberg he became the new majority interest holder (him or the company he owns/operates) and thus any "vote" is decided by him or his assigns.
> So please tell me what you're talking about-a voting proxy- for Sandcastle- and what good it would do in the current situation seeing that we as owners have nothing to vote upon ?



Brian:  Pls forgive me for my naivete - but if there's no value in a proxy and no value in a vote, then why did you ask Corky to let you know if there would be a strategy meeting somewhere on Friday night?  Getting together to complain and commiserate might be fun and make us feel like we're not alone, but it doesn't sound like there will be much to gain from strategy unless you want to try to get NEVS to buy back all of our weeks.  And why would they want to do that when they can get us to pay the bills for the 49%of Sandcastle they don't already own.

I don't mean to sound critical of your suggestion and if I do, I apologize in advance.  Obviously you have a large interest in what's going on which I respect -- but I'm trying to understand if I'm missing something important.  What's to strategize if we've already lost the farm and thrown away the key???  I'm sure what you say about voting is true based on what I know of the ownership rules and the situation when I have asked as well.  It seems to me we're already unwilling pawns in someone elses game -- all we have to do is keep paying the bills to continue to play or figure out how to get out of it if we want to.


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## Timesharemogul

dneuser said:


> Brian:  Pls forgive me for my naivete - but if there's no value in a proxy and no value in a vote, then why did you ask Corky to let you know if there would be a strategy meeting somewhere on Friday night?  Getting together to complain and commiserate might be fun and make us feel like we're not alone, but it doesn't sound like there will be much to gain from strategy unless you want to try to get NEVS to buy back all of our weeks.  And why would they want to do that when they can get us to pay the bills for the 49%of Sandcastle they don't already own.
> 
> I don't mean to sound critical of your suggestion and if I do, I apologize in advance.  Obviously you have a large interest in what's going on which I respect -- but I'm trying to understand if I'm missing something important.  What's to strategize if we've already lost the farm and thrown away the key???  I'm sure what you say about voting is true based on what I know of the ownership rules and the situation when I have asked as well.  It seems to me we're already unwilling pawns in someone elses game -- all we have to do is keep paying the bills to continue to play or figure out how to get out of it if we want to.



Dneuser,
    My question to Anita was written because I thought she might know something that I do not. As far as I know and can imagine I don't see what vote we have so I don't know where she got the idea that she could issue a proxy and have it mean anything? I'm guessing now that either she was making a well-intentioned but sub-factually-cognizant offer, or she hasn't yet read my post. (Hopefully, she does have some super-plan that she just didn't share).
     As to getting together to comiserate, I'm going to be there anyway to attend the owners' meeting that weekend and hear firsthand what's up... MAYBE, just MAYBE it's not as bad as everyone has SPECULATED- we've had no substantive information posted except opinions based on fear and opinions based on hearsay from some unscrupulous marketers. Maybe a meeting with other owners COULD be valuable- who's to say someone there hasn't had a positive experience by filing a complaint with the MASS.AG, or perhaps there's a knowlegeable real estate lawyer amongst our ownership base who could provide a little guidance. And at worst, for those of us who will be there anyway it might be fun to socialize with other owners....although I suspect if it's a large group we might have to take our unofficial meeting to an area lounge!
Brian


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## dneuser

*Sandcastle Owners Meeting Coming Up*

Thanks, Brian.  Sounds like a reasonable idea.  My husband and I plan to be there for the meeting as well and, since we are optimists, we hope to be pleasantly surprised.  I think you offer good advice about keeping an open mind so we'll make the long ride up on Friday night and stay somewhere other than Sandcastle - most likely.  If there's a Friday night gathering we'd like to know about it too.


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## PClapham

Sorry Brian- I wish I knew something-I just thought that the owners had a majority interest and a proxy would be useful somewhere.  I'm in Ohio so can't get to the meeting.  I wonder why we've never been contacted about any of this-we just get mf bills.  Please keep everyone posted, those of you who can get to the meeting.
I certainly won't go for the points thing, either.

anita


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## Sou13

*FYI*

*Chapter 183B: Section 27. Surplus funds*


*Chapter 183B: Section 28. Expenses; assessments; late charges; interest; reserve funds* 


*Chapter 183B: Section 30. Financial records* 

*Chapter 183B: Section 32. Definitions; list of addresses of owners; ballots; communication expenses; vote allocation; notice; recording amendments*


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## FestivaRep

Sou13 said:


> I have good reason to suspect that Outfield Marketing is owned by Festiva Resorts.  Cliff Hagberg teamed up with Outfield Marketing and they *illegally* elected themselves Trustees of the Owners' Association.



Outfield Marketing is not owned by Festiva Resorts. We have contracted them to provide certain sales and marketing services for us.


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## Sou13

*Outfield Marketing*



FestivaRep said:


> Outfield Marketing is not owned by Festiva Resorts. We have contracted them to provide certain sales and marketing services for us.



So I was right about one thing, that Festiva has contracted with Outfield Marketing to *coerce* us into converting to Festiva points!


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## Craig

*Sandcastle Resort Provincetown MA*

I noticed a previous post regarding the sale of a summer Sandcastle week on Ebay for only $2.25 and what must be wrong with the resort. I actually bought the week, Week 27, at $1.25. It's the third week there now that I own. I consider myself lucky. The MF is very reasonable for an oceanfront timeshare. The ad could have been much better...you didn't really notice that it was a summer week, and I think it may have been easily missed. 

Yes, Festiva is involved with trying to convert owners to points, but the resort is getting reburbished and is in good standing. Sandcastle is in a great location and I don't want potential owners or renters to hesitate buying or renting here.


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## Fig

Craig said:


> I noticed a previous post regarding the sale of a summer Sandcastle week on Ebay for only $2.25 and what must be wrong with the resort. I actually bought the week, Week 27, at $1.25. It's the third week there now that I own. I consider myself lucky. The MF is very reasonable for an oceanfront timeshare. The ad could have been much better...you didn't really notice that it was a summer week, and I think it may have been easily missed.
> 
> Yes, Festiva is involved with trying to convert owners to points, but the resort is getting reburbished and is in good standing. Sandcastle is in a great location and I don't want potential owners or renters to hesitate buying or renting here.



I received an email on the same unit. I passed even though it was for the 4th of July week. Until I can understand how a company, Outfield Marketing, that is composed of some of the oldest timeshare players in the business and has nothing to do with a resort until very recently, can come in and send letters to owners whose names are on a list that should be protected from solicitation and then contact them, over and over and over to set up "in home" meetings for the primary purpose of converting them from deeded owners to points holders with no voting rights and furthermore have owners pay several thousand in the process for the privilege of losing their deed rights, I am have no interest in buying at Sandcastle or anywhere else where such practices are allowed. I wish all Sandcastle owners the best. You may want to read the Southcape board and find out how they are dealing with Outfield Marketing.


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## tombo

Craig said:


> Yes, Festiva is involved with trying to convert owners to points, but the resort is getting reburbished and is in good standing. Sandcastle is in a great location and I don't want potential owners or renters to hesitate buying or renting here.



Festiva ownership and management kills the value of a resort by implementing double digit MF increases and assessing until owners just want out for free. Church Street Inn in Charleston SC was a hard to buy resort before festiva acquired it because owners loved their resort, they enjoyed their low annual MF's, so consequently owner's didn't want to sell their weeks. Once Festiva raised their 1 bed room annual MF's from about $429 a year to $550 in Festiva's first year (2007), owners started selling their weeks. Since 2006 the MF's have increased from $429 to the current $685 in 2009. That is an increase averaging 20% per year and a total increase of 60% in 3 years. As a result of runaway MF's the resort is now more attractive to trade for with RCI than to own. There are 3 Church Street Inn auctions on e-bay that had starting bids of $1 that didn't receive a single bid in the last week (auction numbers 250387307837, 290304295666, 350177063403  ). Festiva kills the golden goose with greed IMO.

http://69.16.236.4/~tugbbsc/forums/showthread.php?t=34428

At the Atrium St Maarten where Festiva took over the owners have filed a law suit because: " Festiva announces the increase in maintenance fees for 2007 of 10% plus in addition a 2 times the annual maintenance fee, Special Assessment." in it's first year as owner. This is a good read to prepare for what they do at every resort they acquire:

http://stmaartenstmartin-jeff.blogspot.com/2008/03/st-maarten-timeshare-owners-alert.html

Yes your resort will be refurbished, but you will pay dearly for the refurbishment. You will have little if any accountability or transparency from Festiva regarding what exactly was  done, or how much it cost in labor, materials etc. You will get a dollar total that Festiva claims to have spent on refurbishing which you must accept no questions asked. Try to make Festive get 3 local contactors to bid on the refurbishment like most mgt companies do. Festiva will tell owners what needs to be done, hire who they want, spend money whether it is necessary or not, and bill the owners who have no input. After they get through assessing the owners, you will pay a whole lot more in ever increasing MF's each and every year. These increased expenses will be mostly for the benefit of Festiva's bottom line, not for the benefit of the owners IMO. But the good news is that if you can afford to pay the assessments, and if you can continue to afford to pay (or be willing to pay) the annual MF increases to vacation at your home resort each year, you will own at a newly refurbished resort.


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## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> Festiva ownership and management kills the value of a resort by implementing double digit MF increases and assessing until owners just want out for free.



The resort that Craig is referring to, Sandcastle, is not managed by Festiva, so they are not involved with the maintenance fees, assessments or refurbishments.


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## Fig

FestivaRep said:


> The resort that Craig is referring to, Sandcastle, is not managed by Festiva, so they are not involved with the maintenance fees, assessments or refurbishments.



Thank you for your helpful information. Outfield Marketing is very active at Sandcastle---just call their number! Are they selling Festiva Adventure Club points to Sandcastle owners and converting them to points here through im home meetings? If so, it may be only a mater of time before Sandcastle becomes a Festiva property.


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## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> The resort that Craig is referring to, Sandcastle, is not managed by Festiva, so they are not involved with the maintenance fees, assessments or refurbishments.



Once Outfield sells enough Festiva points to give Festiva ownership of enough weeks to control the vote (once an owner converts to Festiva points the deeded week and the vote belongs to festiva), then Festiva will vote themselves in as the mgt company. Once they control the vote and manage the resort, the money drain begins. It is just a matter of time unless the majority of owners refuse to swap to festiva points. If they fall vicitm to the Outfiled FAC points sales pitch, they will give up their deed, their rights, their vote, and ultimatelly their resort.


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## Sou13

*More on Sandcastle*

This discussion was continued here (probably by a TUG moderator):
[merged] Sandcastle Shift to "Festiva" Points ( 1 2)

The "major news" in *this* discussion is that there is an owners' meeting coming up in April and there's more about those meetings in the merged discussion.


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## Laurie

*HOA meeting Sat April 25th noon, at the resort*

Right - the HOA meeting is scheduled for Saturday April 25th at noon, at the resort. I'm a southeasterner and can't make it, but hopefully as many of you northeasterners as possible (and from places farther away if you can) will be there. 

The meeting announcement was posted by dneuser both earlier in this thread, as well as at post #6 here:
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86039

Did other owners get notice of this meeting mailed to them? I can't put my hand on the mailing, if I did (but I've recently moved so maybe it got misplaced in the process).

Let's keep bumping up the meeting dates and times, so owners who could make it don't miss it!


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## Welfaric

Hi FestivaRep
When the outfield rep came to my house but was disappointed that my better half was not there and left, even after I told him just to go ahead it was ok to work with just me.
My question is....If this is up and up no pressure meeting where they want to make sure we understand the possibilities, Then why in the world would he not just do his speal and leave?

Even you have to admit this must be a high pressure scam. With no merit at all.

And because there is a possibility you may reply, here is your chance to lay it all out for everyone to read including my better half so we can make an informed decision. Do not worry yourself about 1 room, 2 room, time of year or what not. Just lay it out, how many points do we get at what level and how much it costs. It will be funny trust me.


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## ecwinch

Welfaric said:


> My question is....If this is up and up no pressure meeting where they want to make sure we understand the possibilities, Then why in the world would he not just do his speal and leave?



The obvious answer is that he is a salesman, and he knew that he had zero chance to walk away with a signed contract (since for real property both husband and wife need to sign). So you would be immune to his pitch. But you would think that he would be professional enough to least give you the basic spiel.


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## tombo

ecwinch said:


> The obvious answer is that he is a salesman, and he knew that he had zero chance to walk away with a signed contract (since for real property both husband and wife need to sign). So you would be immune to his pitch. But you would think that he would be professional enough to least give you the basic spiel.



The ony way they can convince owners to swap their deeded weeks PLUS cash for Festiva points (an even swap would be a bad deal IMO) is to use scare tactics, half truths, and high pressure. If a spouse is missing they can't exert that pressure to buy right now. If they actually explained the program to one spouse leaving them time to think about it, research it, and time discuss the situation with the absent spouse at a later date, they know they will never sell an FAC membership. 

Can you imagine explaining to your spouse that a guy came by and said that we need to give him the week we own, plus $3000, and in exchange we are going to become members of a club for 30 years (unless they fold or file bankruptcy earlier than that). They will give us some points each year that we can use to reserve a week in our resort or others (we could already reserve other locations through RCI or II), but people from other resorts can now use their points at our resort too.That will mean more competition to reserve a week at our resort than we currently have as an owner. We will no longer have a vote or any say at all in our resort because we will no longer be owners at our resort. We will not be guaranteed when or even if we will be able to vacation at our resort each year. The MF's and assessments will be determined by the CLUB who will vote the weeks that the CLUB owns to elect a Festiva controlled board and hire themselves as the mgt company. Does it sound like a good deal to you dear? :hysterical:


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## Sou13

*Meeting notices?*

Have you Sandcastle owners gotten your notices of the annual meeting?  I got my letter from Southcape today, and our meeting isn't until May 16.  Yours is less than 21 days away!


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## mweinberg

Sou13 said:


> Have you Sandcastle owners gotten your notices of the annual meeting?  I got my letter from Southcape today, and our meeting isn't until May 16.  Yours is less than 21 days away!



No, I have received no word about the annual meeting.  In fact, the last communication I received was the letter promising, among other things, closer communication with owners and a new, more informative website.  I received no response to my letter requesting a copy of the annual budget.  And not only is there no new website, but the old website has disappeared.  If this is NEVS's idea of communication, I think we're all in serious trouble!


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## Sou13

*No notices?  No meeting?*

Thank you, mweinberg, for your post.  There are Sandcastle discussions with posts by owners that you might want to contact by private message or email.  That's how I've been finding Southcape owners and our meeting isn't until May 16th.  Yours is just days away, unless it's not happening!


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## PClapham

*Letter?*

WE haven't received a letter about anything re our Sandcastle week.
Anita


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## Sou13

*Read this post by Cliff Hagberg*



PClapham said:


> WE haven't received a letter about anything re our Sandcastle week.
> Anita


http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84127&goto=newpost


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## c+j

mweinberg said:


> No, I have received no word about the annual meeting.  In fact, the last communication I received was the letter promising, among other things, closer communication with owners and a new, more informative website.  I received no response to my letter requesting a copy of the annual budget.  And not only is there no new website, but the old website has disappeared.  If this is NEVS's idea of communication, I think we're all in serious trouble!




I have just discovered this website and I find it very distressing!
I have owned 1 red week at Sandcastle for about 10 years.  NEVER have I
 had a notice of an annual meeting. I have wondered if there was an owners association, or if a list of owners was available so that we could all be informed about what is going on with management.
In November I received a bill for the "special assessment" along with an identical letter to the one sent to Southcape owners, and apparently the owners of several other resorts, outlining the poor condition of the property and the past bad management - Bottom line is higher MF and special assessments with no accounting for how funds are used.
There are several threads on this site discussing Festiva's outrageous treatment of owners with deeded weeks.  One of them made specific references to Mass. law and the suggestion that the Mass AG should be investigating Festiva's practices.
How can we get this ball rolling?
How can we contact other owners and warn them not to get sucked in and give up their weeks?
If anyone out there has been to the shareholders meeting TODAY, please post something about what went on!


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## Timesharemogul

*Attended owners' annual meeting today*

Well folks, no great surprises here. Everything I predicted in my post of several months ago was dead on correct. In short, things aren't as bad as some would speculate by the amount of chatter here and via E-mails, but there's no question that Sandcastle owners will soon be hit with a special assessment. I'll try to summarize a few of the things I think were highlights of the meeting....
       Unfortunately, the annual owners' meeting dragged on and on for too long as a result of a lot of interruptions and off-topic questions by people in attendance who just wouldn't comply with the request Cliff made to hold all questions for a question and answer period after the lengthy agenda was gone through. A few individuals were attempting to quote Mass General Laws  and repeatedly fumbled through and lengthened....Most of the questions seemed somewhat ignorant to me but then I had to take business law as a requisite when I went to college here in and later took real estate law (and I wouldn't dare try to present an opinion). 
     The resort is going to become affiliated with I.I., RCI Points, and has affiliated with Festiva Adventure Club. In order to join up with the former two, many upgrades short of calling it a total remodel are necessary. Most of these upgrades are basic safety/health items like repairing walls/roofs/rotted wood, and replacing old fixtures an carpeting. Beyond this, there's a vision to redesign the lounge into a combination gym/rec area for guest use.
The bottom line price based on a preliminary rough estimate will be about 6 or 7 hundred dollars per week owned. Cliff stated he only began to look at this ballpark figure very recently and is far from coming up with a final number. I'll believe him as long as I don't see a special assessment bill for at least several months time. The work needed to accomplish all the goals of his NEVMS management company to upgrade Sandcastle would take place while the resort is closd during the winter 09-10 shutdown (Dec.-Feb.)
The resort is also getting computers for a reservation system, and NEVMS has proactively hired an aggressive collection agency to go after the deadbeats of the past who owe the trust a ton of cash. The cash received from collections as well as the possibility of the resort selling off the tennis courts and the motel buildin lot in the corner could offset the special assessments and/or the reserve fund which is not in place yet (but will be). Cliff promised that all owners would receive a copy of the minutes of the meeting and said by May 15th a new Sandcastle website would be up and running with the hopes of better communication between owners/management and potential renters.
      A couple of odd meeting highlights: The heir to the man who had bought the former Pronto restaurant and converted it into a rental condo was in attendance and made an appeal to sell it back to the resort- owners didn't seem very interested as there is also an issue with it being zoned commercially in the master deed but the town having rezoned that Beach Point area as residential. (The restaurant space wasn't grandfathered as it ceased to operate as such many years ago and the locals won't grant a variance) so the heir's problem with keeping it is that if he has to pay their fair share of maintenance fees, it would wipe him out because this space is huge as it was a large restaurant converted to a residence. So it's almost worthless to anyone now!
The other odd highlight was when one very loud man verbally protested that a woman who was repeatedly asking many questions prior to the alloted time was in attendance at the owners meeting- he pointed out hat as she had bought into "Festiva Adventure Club" she had no business being there with owners. While his point was technically correct, she up and left and I think everyone was embarassed for this poor lady who fell victim to the Outfield Marketing people by deeding her units to Festiva and buying into their club.
    After being there for three hours I left after the business portion of the meeting but before the Q & A time. That was about 4 or 5 hours ago....they're probably still doing questions and answers now!


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## Corky

Thanks for bringing us up to date.

Do the fixed week owners have any vote at all?


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## Timesharemogul

*Re: Do the fixed weekers have any votes*

Yes, all owners would have a "vote" on any matters if ever there was a vote necessary by owners. No voting is needed at this point.


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## dneuser

Adding my thanks for your summary of the meeting. While no one likes special assessments, in my opinion, it is better than ceeding control of our weeks.  We had hoped to make the trip up to the Cape but family emergency kept us from going so I really appreciate your taking the time to give us the run down.


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## tombo

Timesharemogul said:


> Well folks, no great surprises here...... but there's no question that Sandcastle owners will soon be hit with a special assessment.



What a surprise, these guys always assess when they gain control of a resort. No quicker or easier way to raise cash than to assess. Get money now, pay supposed bills later.




Timesharemogul said:


> The resort is going to become affiliated with I.I., RCI Points, and has affiliated with Festiva Adventure Club. In order to join up with the former two, many upgrades short of calling it a total remodel are necessary. Most of these upgrades are basic safety/health items like repairing walls/roofs/rotted wood, and replacing old fixtures an carpeting. Beyond this, there's a vision to redesign the lounge into a combination gym/rec area for guest use.




Did Cliff bring the II and RCI requirements showing in writing what must be done? He obviously stated that he knew what II/RCI required, why not present the II/RCI requirements for all owners to read.In reality improvements and renvations are paid for with owner's assessments so that NEVS can sell weeks easier and make more profit. This is done to benefit NEVS rather than because RCI requires it IMO. Yes the renovations/upgrades benefits owners too, but it should because owner's pay 100% of it while NEVS pays nothing.

  Did Cliff bring estimates and bids from several different contractors? Did Cliff ask owners to vote on the renovations, costs, amount of assessments, and whether they even want to turn the lounge into a gym/rec area? Did Cliff mention that joining RCI points (like joining Festiva points) requires owners to pay money to join? Did Cliff mention that a percentage of the sale prices for joining RCI points will become profit for NEVS , or was it just presented as a great thing he was doing for the owners?



Timesharemogul said:


> The bottom line price based on a preliminary rough estimate will be about 6 or 7 hundred dollars per week owned. Cliff stated he only began to look at this ballpark figure very recently and is far from coming up with a final number



The annual meeting has been scheduled for a while. Why would he wait until shortly before the meeting to begin looking for bids? Why would he not show up at the annual meeting with plans and estimates to present to the owners? It will be $700 to $800 per week for now with more assessments coming and no transparency of contractors, materials, or labor expenses. If I became a new owner like Cliff is, I would have showed up with at least 3 bids showing what was going to be done, what it would cost, and why it needed to be done. Cliff just showed up with smooth talk and the trust me we have to do it for RCI/II and trust me that there is no kickbacks or brother in law contractors. Sounds like a big opportunity for someone to fleece the owners with no one having to account for where the money was spent, why it was spent, and with whom it was spent. 




Timesharemogul said:


> NEVMS has proactively hired an aggressive collection agency to go after the deadbeats of the past who owe the trust a ton of cash. The cash received from collections as well as the possibility of the resort selling off the tennis courts and the motel buildin lot in the corner could offset the special assessments and/or the reserve fund which is not in place yet (but will be).



Collection companies do get some more revenue, and they also foreclose on many weeks which Cliff and Festiva will probably end up owning. Was there a vote on selling the tennis courts and motel bldg? Were there appraisals on the value of the property for sale presented at the meeting? Will the property be sold by auction, a licensed real estate agent, or will Cliff just sell the property and assure everyone that he got top dollar for the sale?

Festiva (and apparently Cliff) always come in stating that the resort they acquired has been operating at a loss for some time with little or no reserves (see Church Street Inn, The Atrium,Southscape, etc). They then explain how they must raise MF's and assess to establish a reserve. Then every resort they buy needs drastice repairs to remain Gold Crown, Silver Crown etc. These IMO are scare tactics and a money maker for the new resort owner. No actual proof from RCI/II stating that what they are saying is fact  is ever presented. These people never show up talking about saving the owners money and lowering MF's through frugal mgt tecniques. IMO when Festiva and/or Cliff assesses, Festiva and/or Cliff makes more money. IMO when Festiva and/or Cliff renovates, Festiva and/or Cliff makes more money. IMO when MF's are increased, Festiva and/or Cliff make more money.

Timesharemogul, I like you told everyone months ago what they would do (read post #6 from September, 2008), and as you said, unfortunatelly there were No Real Surprises for either of us!!!!!


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## Sandy VDH

They called me the other day.  They started the call by asking me what I was doing with my week.  Well if you were the resort you would already know that I deposited the week over a year ago.  That is always a bad tipoff that they don't know s**t about what they are taking about. The resort would have know what I was doing with my week would they not.

They wanted to tell me what was going on at the resort.  I said I wasn't interested and ended the call.  I did not tell them that I have following here on what has been going on. 

This is actually the first call I have had. Hopefully the last.


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## Sou13

*How many owners attended the meeting?*

We have our meeting next Saturday May 16th and those of us who are planning to attend are hoping for a good turnout.  How many owners attended the meeting?  Were any TUG members/guests there?  Why have there been no further posts to these discussions?


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## ChrisH

*Festiva being investigated by Atty's General*

I was just at Sandcastle for one of my weeks and was given the Festiva pitch.  After coming home googled Festiva Resorts (see complaints on google), found out that the Attorney's General in several states have either brought charges against and won, or are investigating their operation in several different states - Missouri, Carolina's etc. in regards to other timeshare sites.
Does anyone know how current sandcastle owners can get a list of the other owners in the resort?  Might be nice to send out the info that is included here as a heads up - evidently they are trying to see every owner that checks in with their sales pitch.  Don't know how many visit here.
Also - are they charging Festiva RENT for the use of the Offices - as this is part of our property and they should not be able to come in and use it without standard/current rate rental fees to Royal Coachman or the Dunes Trust?  Their agents are staying in a unit or units at the resort - are they paying fees for that use?  They cannot own all 52 weeks of unit 606.  Maybe they move them around to whatever is vacant.  Still there should be charges made and applied to the trust.
If there are foreclosures at the resort, how does Festiva get ownership???? I would think ownership would return to sandcastle trust?? Am I just to naive?
I saw a supposed balance sheet for sandcastle comparing 2007 -2008 and there doesn't look like we are in the RED moneywise.  Of course it was just flashed in front of me, and removed - but from what I saw - it looked like income and expenses matched up pretty well.

UGHHHHHHHHHHH!


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## Sou13

*Festiva takes over resort ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page)*

Chris, have you read Festiva takes over resort ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page)?  The link is to the first page and there's a lot of info about the sleazy Festiva operation.  You can find a lot more on your sister resort discussion, Southcape Resort ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page) (again, the link is to the first page) where we're trying to find out how to fight this "hostile"(?) takeover.


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## Carolinian

You people really need to form concerned owners groups and fight these sharks.  Get some legal advise.  Talk to your state Real Estate Commission or whoever regulates timeshare there.  Festiva is bad news, especially their points scheme.  Set up a board on the net to communicate with other owners.  The net makes it a heck of a lot easier to organize than when concerned owners kicked First Flight developers out of control of a series of timeshare resorts on the NC Outer Banks some years ago.


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## Carolinian

ChrisH said:


> I was just at Sandcastle for one of my weeks and was given the Festiva pitch.  After coming home googled Festiva Resorts (see complaints on google), found out that the Attorney's General in several states have either brought charges against and won, or are investigating their operation in several different states - Missouri, Carolina's etc. in regards to other timeshare sites.
> Does anyone know how current sandcastle owners can get a list of the other owners in the resort?  Might be nice to send out the info that is included here as a heads up - evidently they are trying to see every owner that checks in with their sales pitch.  Don't know how many visit here.
> Also - are they charging Festiva RENT for the use of the Offices - as this is part of our property and they should not be able to come in and use it without standard/current rate rental fees to Royal Coachman or the Dunes Trust?  Their agents are staying in a unit or units at the resort - are they paying fees for that use?  They cannot own all 52 weeks of unit 606.  Maybe they move them around to whatever is vacant.  Still there should be charges made and applied to the trust.
> If there are foreclosures at the resort, how does Festiva get ownership???? I would think ownership would return to sandcastle trust?? Am I just to naive?
> I saw a supposed balance sheet for sandcastle comparing 2007 -2008 and there doesn't look like we are in the RED moneywise.  Of course it was just flashed in front of me, and removed - but from what I saw - it looked like income and expenses matched up pretty well.
> 
> UGHHHHHHHHHHH!



The corporate law of every state I am aware of provides for this during a set period prior to the annual meeting.  Call the state's Real Estate Commission or Corporations Commission or equivalent.  They should be able to tell you.  Organize and kick these turkeys out!


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## ChrisH

The annual meeting was in late April so I guess we missed that deadline.  Thanks for the info.


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## ChrisH

I am new to this forum.  Started googling Festiva after my recent vacation week at Sandcastle and ended up here.  I was contacted by the 'office' during my stay to review all the 'decisions' at the owners meeting - as a 'courtesy' to all owners that were vacationing.

I was told that i could 'exchange' my weeks for points.  That this was not a 'sale', that they were not 'sales representatives of any sort' and this was simply an 'exchange into the new system'.
The documents/contracts they then showed me clearly stated 'Seller' and 'Purchaser' in every statement.

I was told that:
1) RCI was no longer going to affiliate with Sandcastle unless it upgraded to a 'star' category resort and that II would not affiliate with Sandcastle until major improvements were made.
2) RCI was giving up 'weeks' resorts for only 'points' resorts.
3) RCI was actually getting out of the business, that the reason the new 'weeks' directory was 'so small' was that they were trying to get out of that business and dropping resorts.

I was also told that anytime I wanted to use my own weeks, I simply had to let them know a year ahead of time and I wouldn't get my points for that unit(s) for that year but could use the unit.  The fine print says ' you must notify the manager at least 12 months but no more than 13 months ahead that you intend to use your unit.  At that time the manager would estimate the next years' assessment and bill you for the 'hold of your own unit', I beleive you have 30 days to pay it.  If his estimate was too low, you would receive another bill when the maintenance fee for that following  year was determined.  If his estimate was higher than the actual maintenance fee, 'they would NOT return the overage but apply it to future assessments.' So you really don't 'own' your week anymore- but technically you can use it if you can predict all of life's events 13 months ahead and have the cash on hand.
Greg also said, you don't ever want to do that, you can get the same exchange to Sandcastle anytime.  The longer you wait the fewer points you would use.  ie. at 60 days out it would cost you only 1800 points for a Sandcastle unit instead of 4000 points.  When I said 'do you really think July 4th is going to be available 60 days or 45 days out' he said he was sure that I could get a July week that close 'and save all my points.'  But in reading all the web complaints for other resorts, it appears that nobody seems to be able to get high demand time at these festiva resorts.  They are simply offered a stay at a 'nearby' resort for nightly fees.  SO basically I would be giving up my rights to week 27 for life, for a crappy vacation to be determined by Festiva. 

I was told that the fee for 'exchange' of my units to the point system would be $2990 for the exchange plus $195 x 4 (for 4 deeds to be to be 'converted') which is really for 4 deeds to be turned over to them and my name anihalated (?sp). However the document says 'SALES PRICE' and was going to be listed as $3575 plus $195 admin fee.  When I questioned why they did not list it as stated, with 4 admin fees for the deed transfer (it's actually a QuitClaim deed giving up all your rights) I was told 'Oh, your the 1st one who caught, oh I mean noticed that.' 'It's just the way we have to write it up, but it's no problem.'  Well if there a 4 fees at the Barnstable Courthouse for each Quitclaim deed, why would it be written that way????

I don't know how many times I was told this is an 'exchange to points' and not a 'sale of my units'.  

I have seen that the Attorneys General of several other states have either sued and won vs. Festiva with money being returned, or are suing, or are investigating Festiva points system.  These seem to be resorts that are further into the Festiva system timewise (MO, Carolinas etc.) as Festiva just starting in MA - I'm curious to know if anyone on this forum is aware of or has contacted the MA Atty Gen in regards to Festiva?

Also curious as to how to get the word out to other Sandcastle owners as there only seem to be a dozen or so members responding in this forum.  

Chris


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## theo

*Lotsa lies, lotsa nonsense...*



ChrisH said:


> I was told that i could 'exchange' my weeks for points.  That this was not a 'sale', that they were not 'sales representatives of any sort' and this was simply an 'exchange into the new system'.
> The documents/contracts they then showed me clearly stated 'Seller' and 'Purchaser' in every statement.
> 
> You've already figured out that this was a lie. The "exchange" is basically a "forfeiture" of one solid product for a less valuable one ---and paying out money for the "privilege". Well done.
> 
> Re: >> I was told that:
> 1) RCI was no longer going to affiliate with Sandcastle unless it upgraded to a 'star' category resort and that II would not affiliate with Sandcastle until major improvements were made. <<
> 
> That *may* be *half* true. RCI will, in fact, affiliate with any timeshare facility, anytime, anywhere ---no exceptions. II, on the other hand, has higher minimum standards.
> 
> 2) RCI was giving up 'weeks' resorts for only 'points' resorts.
> 
> More nonsense. Whether a resort is a RCI "weeks" resort or a RCI "points" facility is not even an RCI decision in the first place. It's a resort decision --- and a big money maker for the resort (RCI gets mere peanuts).
> 
> 3) RCI was actually getting out of the business, that the reason the new 'weeks' directory was 'so small' was that they were trying to get out of that business and dropping resorts.
> 
> Even more utter, unbelieveable nonsense. I'm certainly *no* fan of RCI, but the smaller RCI directory is merely a cost cutting measure. There are no fewer RCI resorts than formerly, but the shift to "online information" from paper directory makes complete sense, particularly since "online" information can be updated in real time --- unlike an expensive annual paper directory.
> 
> Re: >> I was also told that anytime I wanted to use my own weeks, I simply had to let them know a year ahead of time and I wouldn't get my points for that unit(s) for that year but could use the unit. <<
> 
> Partly true, but oddly stated. Yes, if converted to points it's 13 months in advance reservation --- and the associated underlying "points" would, in fact, be used in full to utilize the week. It's not that you "wouldn't get the points", but rather that you would *spend* them all in reserving your underlying week. Obviously, by refusing to "convert", your deeded week remains yours to use each year *without* any such reservation gymnastics.
> 
> Re: >> The fine print says ' you musst notify the manager at least 12 months but no more than 13 months ahead that you intend to use your unit.  At that time the manager would estimate the next years' assessment and bill you for the 'hold of your own unit', I beleive you have 30 days to pay it.  If his estimate was too low, you would receive another bill when the maintenance fee for that following  year was determined.  If his estimate was higher than the actual maintenance fee, 'they would NOT return the overage but apply it to future assessments.'<<
> 
> Now *this* is a new twist, in my experience. No facility "manager" in my experience ever has (or ever has had) the individual right or any authority whatsoever to determine or predict "assessments". I'm not even sure this would be legal to attempt.
> 
> You seem to have encountered a uniquely slimy liar here. Either that or this guy just has no idea what he is talking about in the first place...
> 
> In short summary, keep your deeded week, keep your money --- and tell these lying thieves to "go pound sand"...


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## ecwinch

ChrisH said:


> I am new to this forum.  Started googling Festiva after my recent vacation week at Sandcastle and ended up here.  I was contacted by the 'office' during my stay to review all the 'decisions' at the owners meeting - as a 'courtesy' to all owners that were vacationing.
> 
> I don't know how many times I was told this is an 'exchange to points' and not a 'sale of my units'.
> 
> I have seen that the Attorneys General of several other states have either sued and won vs. Festiva with money being returned, or are suing, or are investigating Festiva points system.  These seem to be resorts that are further into the Festiva system timewise (MO, Carolinas etc.) as Festiva just starting in MA - I'm curious to know if anyone on this forum is aware of or has contacted the MA Atty Gen in regards to Festiva?
> 
> Also curious as to how to get the word out to other Sandcastle owners as there only seem to be a dozen or so members responding in this forum.
> 
> Chris



Locate FestivaRep over in the Other Timeshare System forum, and send her a PM with the details of your encounter (salesperson's name, date/time, location, etc.). She has indicated a willingness to curb this type of sales tactics and it would be good to put her to the test. I would cc: Cliff at NEVS also as he has made statements that a rep was fired for this type of misrepresentation. 

I would also send the letter to the Mass AG. This is how timeshare companies usually get their hands slapped. Enough people complain about unfair trade practices and the AG ends up opening a case.

I think what you have written here, with an opening paragraph saying that you are concerned  that you were subject to an unfair and misleading sales presentation on XXX, by YYY at the ZZZ resort would be sufficient. cc: to Festiva, NEVS, and Outfield Marketing (assuming they were the sales co). Even better if it was an in-home presentation, so highlight that fact if that was the case.


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## ChrisH

*From: Rules and Regulations -Festiva Resorts Members Assoc*

*RE your comment*:   Now *this* is a new twist, in my experience. No facility "manager" in my experience ever has (or ever has had) the individual right or any authority whatsoever to determine or predict "assessments". I'm not even sure this would be legal to attempt.

You seem to have encountered a uniquely slimy liar here. Either that or this guy just has no idea what he is talking about in the first place...

In short summary, keep your deeded week, keep your money --- and tell these lying thieves to "go pound sand"...[/QUOTE]

Reserving 'your own' unit 12-13 months in advance as required.

*This is what it says in Festivas Rules RE: section 2.4.3*

2.4.3 Advance Payment of Assessments.  In the event that a member requests a reservation within the appropriate reservation window but the Use Period in question occurs in the immediately succeeding Calendar Year, the Manager shall request and receive payment of the estimated Assessment for such succeeding Calendar Year prior to issuing a confirmed reservation.  The Manager shall determine the estimated Assessment for any subsequent Calenday Year in its sole discretion.

2.4.4 Adjustments.  In the event that the estimated Assessment charged to a Member in accordance with Section 2.4.3 above is lower than the actual Assessment ultimately levied by the Association, the Member will be required to pay the amount of the difference within thirty dayw of the due date of the Assessment in order to remain a Member in good standing.  In the event that the estimated Assessment charged to a Member in accordance with section 2.4.3 above is higher than the actual Assessment ultimately levied by the Association, the Member's account will reflect a credit against future Calendar Years Assessments, but neither the Association nor the Manager shall be obligated to refund such excess amount to the Member.

So you have to pay a year in advance and they can charge what they want.
Tried to copy word for word, sorry if there are any typos!

Chris


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## ecwinch

ChrisH said:


> *RE your comment*:   Now *this* is a new twist, in my experience. No facility "manager" in my experience ever has (or ever has had) the individual right or any authority whatsoever to determine or predict "assessments". I'm not even sure this would be legal to attempt.
> 
> You seem to have encountered a uniquely slimy liar here. Either that or this guy just has no idea what he is talking about in the first place...



Not that they are not slimy liars, but...

Most resort systems will allow usage to be deposited into II or RCI, 12-13 months out in exchange for the estimated m/f. So in that process the mgt company usually estimates what the m/f will be.

They do this in order to compensate for the use year not aligning with the deadline for m/f. For instance to deposit my Mar 2010 week, I would need pay my estimated m/f now. The actual m/f will not be known until much later in the year.

[Edit]: ChrisH and I are saying the same thing. Theo's quote is intermingled with ChrisH's comments, and that is what I responding to.


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## theo

*No disagreement here...*



ecwinch said:


> Not that they are not slimy liars, but...
> 
> Most resort systems will allow usage to be deposited into II or RCI, 12-13 months out in exchange for the estimated m/f. So in that process the mgt company usually estimates what the m/f will be.
> 
> They do this in order to compensate for the use year not aligning with the deadline for m/f. For instance to deposit my Mar 2010 week, I would need pay my estimated m/f now. The actual m/f will not be known until much later in the year.



Sure, paying the most current maintenance fee amount, in advance of next year mf bill issuance in order to be able to make an advance reservation for next year, is standard procedure most anyhwhere, as is the understanding that any shortfall would obviously have to be made up if / when that next years' mf amount increases. No dispute on that point at all.

What I intended to express, but perhaps not with sufficient clarity, was my *great* surprise at *any* suggestion or notion that an individual resort manager could somehow guess / divine / predict (or had any authority to even attempt to do so) what the next years's maintenance fee amount might be, since that decision would actually be one in which he /she as individual resort manager would have absolutely *no* say, knowledge or involvement whatsoever.   

It's an unimportant clarification, however. My main and most pertinent point was (and still remains) that the "rep" to which Chris H made reference told a broad array of lies and assorted half-truths --- some of them straining credibility and / or reason *well* beyond the breaking point...


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## Sou13

*Now posted on TUG*

For anyone else being contacted by Outfield Marketing I have now posted the "Terms and Conditions" for membership in the Festiva Adventure Club at http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthr...s #post719708
The "Public Offering Statement" has been published at http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthr...ent#post687123

Anyone who needs to download a copy of these documents can copy and paste it from these TUG posts.

Our annual meeting is coming up Saturday the 16th at noon.  I intend to be there with all the documents I've managed to copy and share, including how many Southcape owners had converted to Festiva as of 03-18-2009.


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## ChrisH

*Sandcastle Owners - Please read - any lawyers out there?*

Hi
I've been reading the Mass Gen Laws - section 83 - all about timeshare laws in MA and found some interesting and useful things.

1:  Is anyone going to sandcastle in the next few weeks?  According to MGL any owner can get a list of ALL owners by just requesting it in person see law below.  That might help getting MORE people informed.

MGL *Chapter 183B: Section 32. Definitions; list of addresses of owners; ballots; communication expenses; vote allocation; notice; recording amendments
*(b) The managing entity shall keep reasonably available for inspection and copying by any time-share owner all addresses, known to it or to the developer, of all the time-share owners with the principal permanent residence address of each indicated if known. The managing entity shall revise continually the list of addresses in the light of any information it obtains, and the developer shall keep the managing entity advised of any information he has or obtains. 

2:  In the sales office there are several posters showing artist renderings of changes to come, furniture and carpet swaths etc. showing decor.  Can anyone check out whether it has the required "Need NOT be Built' as required by law.  Didn't see anything like that.  Might have been in fine print somewhere on the posters.  See belowl-section 50

Chapter 183B: Section 50. Improvements not required to be built 

Section 50. If any improvement in the time-share property is not required to be built, no promotional material may be displayed or delivered to prospective purchasers which describes or portrays said improvement unless the description or portrayal of the improvement shall be conspicuously labeled or identified as “NEED NOT BE BUILT”. 
Also: 

3:  This next Section 33 seems to indicate that the owners can, by ballot vote, approve  or disapprove any proposed expenditure - such as tearing out the tennis courts and building more units - maybe even the expenditure of having Festiva in there????? I don't know.  It seems to say any owner and then 10 percent of owners - can anyone interpret this law and determine exactly how many petitioners are required?  It appears if the manager gets such a petition then the manager is required to provide a ballot to all owners and give ample notice and response times.  
AND -Section 35 seems to indicate that the management can be changed by the same format owner/10%???


Chapter 183B: Section 33. Amendment of project instruments or unrecorded documents; approval of expenditures; procedure 

Section 33. (a) The owners may amend the project instrument or any unrecorded document governing the project, or approve or disapprove any proposed expenditure, in the manner provided by this section in addition to any manner permitted by law or by the instrument or document. 

(b) Any owner may deliver to the managing entity a petition containing the language of any proposed amendment or proposal for the approval or disapproval of any proposed expenditure and* signed by owners of at least one time-share or other estate or interest in each of a number of units to which at least ten per cent of the votes are allocated, or any smaller percentage specified by the document to be amended. *The owner delivering said petition may attach to it a letter of not more than two pages to be mailed with the ballots. Within ten days after receiving said petition, the managing entity shall mail to each owner a ballot setting forth the language of the petition and affording an opportunity to indicate a preference between approval and disapproval of said proposed amendment or proposal, together with a copy of any letter of not more than two pages attached by the owner who delivered said petition. The ballot may also be accompanied by a letter of not more than two pages from the managing entity recommending approval or disapproval of said proposed amendment or proposal.... more


Chapter 183B: Section 35. Discharge of manager 

Section 35. (a) During the period of time the developer appoints, controls or serves as the managing entity, the owners may discharge the manager with or without cause in the manner provided by this section in addition to any manner permitted by law or the project instrument. 

(b) Any owner may prepare a ballot affording the opportunity to indicate a preference between retaining the present manager and discharging him in favor of a new manager; provided, however, that the owners of at least one time-share or other estate or interest in each of a number of units to which at least ten per cent of the votes are allocated sign a petition authorizing said owner to prepare said ballot on their behalf. A copy of said ballot and of any letter to be mailed with said ballot shall be delivered to the manager. Said ballot and a copy of any said letter, together with a copy of any written reply received from the manager containing no more pages than said letter, shall be mailed not less than ten or more than thirty days from the date of delivery to said manager to each owner by the owner who prepared the ballot. 
(c) On the date specified pursuant to clause (2) of subsection (c) of section thirty-two, the person who receives the ballots shall examine the ballots that have been returned, calculate the vote accordingly, and forthwith notify the manager of the result. If at least sixty-six and two-thirds per cent of all of the votes allocated to all time-share owners, which votes represent at least thirty-three and one-third per cent of the votes allocated to all owners, favor discharging the manager, the developer also shall be notified of said result, the ballots or copies thereof shall be given forthwith to the manager, and the developer shall forthwith diligently attempt to procure offers for management contracts from prospective managers..... more 

There is a lot more but it takes plenty of reading and legal interpretation - just google MGL and then search for section 183B.


----------



## ChrisH

*Sandcastle Owners - Please read - any lawyers out there?*

Hi
I've been reading the Mass Gen Laws - section 83 - all about timeshare laws in MA and found some interesting and useful things.

1:  Is anyone going to sandcastle in the next few weeks?  According to MGL any owner can get a list of ALL owners by just requesting it in person see law below.  That might help getting MORE people informed.

MGL *Chapter 183B: Section 32. Definitions; list of addresses of owners; ballots; communication expenses; vote allocation; notice; recording amendments
*(b) The managing entity shall keep reasonably available for inspection and copying by any time-share owner all addresses, known to it or to the developer, of all the time-share owners with the principal permanent residence address of each indicated if known. The managing entity shall revise continually the list of addresses in the light of any information it obtains, and the developer shall keep the managing entity advised of any information he has or obtains. 

2:  In the sales office there are several posters showing artist renderings of changes to come, furniture and carpet swaths etc. showing decor.  Can anyone check out whether it has the required "Need NOT be Built' as required by law.  Didn't see anything like that.  Might have been in fine print somewhere on the posters.  See belowl-section 50

Chapter 183B: Section 50. Improvements not required to be built 

Section 50. If any improvement in the time-share property is not required to be built, no promotional material may be displayed or delivered to prospective purchasers which describes or portrays said improvement unless the description or portrayal of the improvement shall be conspicuously labeled or identified as “NEED NOT BE BUILT”. 
Also: 

3:  This next Section 33 seems to indicate that the owners can, by ballot vote, approve  or disapprove any proposed expenditure - such as tearing out the tennis courts and building more units - maybe even the expenditure of having Festiva in there????? I don't know.  It seems to say any owner and then 10 percent of owners - can anyone interpret this law and determine exactly how many petitioners are required?  It appears if the manager gets such a petition then the manager is required to provide a ballot to all owners and give ample notice and response times.  
AND -Section 35 seems to indicate that the management can be changed by the same format owner/10%???


Chapter 183B: Section 33. Amendment of project instruments or unrecorded documents; approval of expenditures; procedure 

Section 33. (a) The owners may amend the project instrument or any unrecorded document governing the project, or approve or disapprove any proposed expenditure, in the manner provided by this section in addition to any manner permitted by law or by the instrument or document. 

(b) Any owner may deliver to the managing entity a petition containing the language of any proposed amendment or proposal for the approval or disapproval of any proposed expenditure and* signed by owners of at least one time-share or other estate or interest in each of a number of units to which at least ten per cent of the votes are allocated, or any smaller percentage specified by the document to be amended. *The owner delivering said petition may attach to it a letter of not more than two pages to be mailed with the ballots. Within ten days after receiving said petition, the managing entity shall mail to each owner a ballot setting forth the language of the petition and affording an opportunity to indicate a preference between approval and disapproval of said proposed amendment or proposal, together with a copy of any letter of not more than two pages attached by the owner who delivered said petition. The ballot may also be accompanied by a letter of not more than two pages from the managing entity recommending approval or disapproval of said proposed amendment or proposal.... more


Chapter 183B: Section 35. Discharge of manager 

Section 35. (a) During the period of time the developer appoints, controls or serves as the managing entity, the owners may discharge the manager with or without cause in the manner provided by this section in addition to any manner permitted by law or the project instrument. 

(b) Any owner may prepare a ballot affording the opportunity to indicate a preference between retaining the present manager and discharging him in favor of a new manager; provided, however, that the owners of at least one time-share or other estate or interest in each of a number of units to which at least ten per cent of the votes are allocated sign a petition authorizing said owner to prepare said ballot on their behalf. A copy of said ballot and of any letter to be mailed with said ballot shall be delivered to the manager. Said ballot and a copy of any said letter, together with a copy of any written reply received from the manager containing no more pages than said letter, shall be mailed not less than ten or more than thirty days from the date of delivery to said manager to each owner by the owner who prepared the ballot. 
(c) On the date specified pursuant to clause (2) of subsection (c) of section thirty-two, the person who receives the ballots shall examine the ballots that have been returned, calculate the vote accordingly, and forthwith notify the manager of the result. If at least sixty-six and two-thirds per cent of all of the votes allocated to all time-share owners, which votes represent at least thirty-three and one-third per cent of the votes allocated to all owners, favor discharging the manager, the developer also shall be notified of said result, the ballots or copies thereof shall be given forthwith to the manager, and the developer shall forthwith diligently attempt to procure offers for management contracts from prospective managers..... more 

There is a lot more but it takes plenty of reading and legal interpretation - just google MGL and then search for section 183B.


----------



## Fig

ChrisH said:


> 1:  Is anyone going to sandcastle in the next few weeks?  According to MGL any owner can get a list of ALL owners by just requesting it in person see law below.  That might help getting MORE people informed.
> 
> MGL *Chapter 183B: Section 32. Definitions; list of addresses of owners; *


*

Great finds! Here's a wild idea. Why doesn't one owner go with another owner who can serve as a witness and a notary public? As insurance, draft up a letter to the Mass AG saying you were denied the list and have it on hand and if you are denied, have the letter signed by the witness and notarized right on-site. Cliff Hagberg, your "trustee" appears to be the keeper of the addresses according to this...and they should be very up to date...heck, according to this, he even has email addresses.

http://askmando.com/authors/brosious_matt/resort_management_software.html*


----------



## Sou13

*M.g.l. 183b*

Thanks for passing along thoughts about M.G.L. 183B.  I've copied and saved it as a document which can be emailed as an attachment.


----------



## PClapham

*Information????*

Hello- I STILL have not heard word one from Sandcastle!  We have owned a week there for many years.
Anita


----------



## ecwinch

ChrisH said:


> Hi
> I've been reading the Mass Gen Laws - section 83 - all about timeshare laws in MA and found some interesting and useful things.
> 
> 2:  In the sales office there are several posters showing artist renderings of changes to come, furniture and carpet swaths etc. showing decor.  Can anyone check out whether it has the required "Need NOT be Built' as required by law.  Didn't see anything like that.  Might have been in fine print somewhere on the posters.  See belowl-section 50
> 
> Chapter 183B: Section 50. Improvements not required to be built
> 
> Section 50. If any improvement in the time-share property is not required to be built, no promotional material may be displayed or delivered to prospective purchasers which describes or portrays said improvement unless the description or portrayal of the improvement shall be conspicuously labeled or identified as “NEED NOT BE BUILT”.
> Also:
> 
> 3:  This next Section 33 seems to indicate that the owners can, by ballot vote, approve  or disapprove any proposed expenditure - such as tearing out the tennis courts and building more units - maybe even the expenditure of having Festiva in there????? I don't know.  It seems to say any owner and then 10 percent of owners - can anyone interpret this law and determine exactly how many petitioners are required?  It appears if the manager gets such a petition then the manager is required to provide a ballot to all owners and give ample notice and response times.
> AND -Section 35 seems to indicate that the management can be changed by the same format owner/10%???
> 
> 
> Chapter 183B: Section 33. Amendment of project instruments or unrecorded documents; approval of expenditures; procedure
> 
> Section 33. (a) The owners may amend the project instrument or any unrecorded document governing the project, or approve or disapprove any proposed expenditure, in the manner provided by this section in addition to any manner permitted by law or by the instrument or document.
> 
> (b) Any owner may deliver to the managing entity a petition containing the language of any proposed amendment or proposal for the approval or disapproval of any proposed expenditure and* signed by owners of at least one time-share or other estate or interest in each of a number of units to which at least ten per cent of the votes are allocated, or any smaller percentage specified by the document to be amended. *...
> 
> Chapter 183B: Section 35. Discharge of manager
> 
> ....(c) On the date specified pursuant to clause (2) of subsection (c) of section thirty-two, the person who receives the ballots shall examine the ballots that have been returned, calculate the vote accordingly, and forthwith notify the manager of the result. If at least sixty-six and two-thirds per cent of all of the votes allocated to all time-share owners, which votes represent at least thirty-three and one-third per cent of the votes allocated to all owners, favor discharging the manager, the developer also shall be notified of said result, the ballots or copies thereof shall be given forthwith to the manager, and the developer shall forthwith diligently attempt to procure offers for management contracts from prospective managers..... more
> 
> There is a lot more but it takes plenty of reading and legal interpretation - just google MGL and then search for section 183B.



The link you are looking for is Mass Timeshare Act.

Section 50 applies to improvements (swimming pools, tennis courts, hot tubs, etc.), and not replacement of interior furnishings. The key word is improvement. Replacement due to normal wear and tear or maintenance are not improvements to property. It would be difficult for a timeshare to operate if the term "improvement" was expanded to any expenditure of funds on the physical plant.

The 10% provision describes the process to the measure placed before a vote of the owners. It is not the percentage required to approve the measure.

35c above is saying it takes 33.33% of the eligible votes to establish a quorum, and a 66.66 % majority of those votes must favor the discharge of the managing entity.

And it you read the rest of the process, it is a little more complicated. After you vote to discharge, then offers are solicited from other prospective managers. A second ballot is then sent out to determine if the owners want to accept one of the offers from the prospective managers, or retain the incumbent.

_"shall forthwith prepare and mail to each owner a second ballot stating at least the term and compensation provided by each offer that has been received and affording an opportunity to indicate a preference for any one of the offers or for retaining the current manager."_


----------



## Sandy VDH

PClapham said:


> Hello- I STILL have not heard word one from Sandcastle!  We have owned a week there for many years.
> Anita



When is your week?  You will likely be contacted about 3 - 4 weeks prior to your scheduled week at the resort. 

That is when they contacted me.  

I just said not interested, don't want to talk.  They seemed surprised when I said I already knew what was going on.  Of course this was outfield calling me to try to get me into a "update", yeah right.


----------



## Carolinian

Massachusetts law gives you more to go on than North Carolina law would.

Go get 'em!


----------



## Carolinian

Your owners need to organize a Concerned Owners Group and get control of your HOA board.  I would suggest a private forum so that owners don't tip their hand to others.  A Yahoo Group would accomplish that, or www.timeshareforums.com has in the past set up private forums for owners groups.  Both are free.

You will need mail to initially reach the owners, and you will need the mailing list to do that.  Fortunately, under your state's laws, it can be obtained year round.  Your first mailing should warn members about Outfield and refer them to this board for further information.

You will also need a mailing timed to go out about when the resort's notice of annual meeting goes out.  You will need in that to introduce your candidates for the board and any other items you want to have voted on.  You will also need to ask for proxies.  Most timeshare meeting votes are by proxy, and management will also be seeking them.  Include a blank proxy form for proxies to your people and have it returned to you, not to the resort, so it won't get ''lost''.

I was involved in one Concerned Owners Group at a resort on the OBX.  I had owned three weeks at that resort and sold them because of bad management and an indifferent HOA board that let management do as they pleased.  Then someone offered to give me a red week, which I took, and I was approached a few weeks later about joining the concerned owners group.  At the time I was on the board of a different timeshare on the OBX.  Four of us split the cost of a mailing to all members and had family members sit around and stuff the envelopes.  We asked for a mailing list, which management denied. As three of the four initiators of our group were lawyers, we contacted the HOA's lawyer, pointed out the applicable statutes and got our list.  In our first mailing we asked for opinions about the existing management, volunteers for board candidates, and said we would be running our own team.  We also asked for contributions and included a return envelope.  We got enough money to reimburse the money the initiators had put up, plus the cost of the second mailing just before the annual meeting where we solicited proxies. We also heard horror stories about management worse than the things we had known about.  The vote for the two directors seats was close, and one whole owner with 52 votes stradling the fence by voting for one candidate on each slate, so that each side won a seat.  The meeting also passed the bylaw amendments that our group put forward. At the meeting, the majority of timesharers were with the Concerned Owners, but management had a majority of the whole owners.  I sold my week there before the next meeting, but ultimately an owner friendly majority was had on the HOA board and the management company was fired and replaced by a better one.


----------



## ecwinch

Carolinian said:


> At the meeting, the majority of timesharers were with the Concerned Owners, but management had a majority of the whole owners. * I sold my week there before the next meeting,* but ultimately an owner friendly majority was had on the HOA board and the management company was fired and replaced by a better one.



 You sold your ownership?


----------



## Carolinian

ecwinch said:


> You sold your ownership?



Yeah, at that resort.  I had just bought another week at the resort where I was on the HOA board and also one overseas.  Something had to go.


----------



## theo

*Owner information access...*



Carolinian said:


> .I was involved in one Concerned Owners Group at a resort on the OBX.  I had owned three weeks at that resort and sold them because of bad management and an indifferent HOA board that let management do as they pleased.  Then someone offered to give me a red week, which I took, and I was approached a few weeks later about joining the concerned owners group.  At the time I was on the board of a different timeshare on the OBX.  Four of us split the cost of a mailing to all members and had family members sit around and stuff the envelopes.  We asked for a mailing list, which management denied. As three of the four initiators of our group were lawyers, we contacted the HOA's lawyer, pointed out the applicable statutes and got our list.  In our first mailing we asked for opinions about the existing management, volunteers for board candidates, and said we would be running our own team.  We also asked for contributions and included a return envelope.  We got enough money to reimburse the money the initiators had put up, plus the cost of the second mailing just before the annual meeting where we solicited proxies. We also heard horror stories about management worse than the things we had known about.  The vote for the two directors seats was close, and one whole owner with 52 votes stradling the fence by voting for one candidate on each slate, so that each side won a seat.  The meeting also passed the bylaw amendments that our group put forward. At the meeting, the majority of timesharers were with the Concerned Owners, but management had a majority of the whole owners.  I sold my week there before the next meeting, but ultimately an owner friendly majority was had on the HOA board and the management company was fired and replaced by a better one.




My heart is genuinely warmed by such reported events of empowered owners, reinforcing that alert and involved owners are *not* necessarily just at the mercy of developers or, after sell-out of the facility unit / weeks, developer minions and lackeys.

However, I'm prompted to wonder how one would ever get started and / or proceed on such a quest in a state (Florida specifically and immediately comes to mind) where owner information is apparently much more "protected" and therefore virtually inaccessible to concerned owner(s) who might want to launch just such an admirable campaign there. 
Any thoughts on that particular scenario?


----------



## ChrisH

*Wait until you get there UGHHHHHH!*



PClapham said:


> Hello- I STILL have not heard word one from Sandcastle!  We have owned a week there for many years.
> Anita



Didn't know any of this either - until I went for my vacation  - week 18 - beginning of May.  Only 12 owners were there that week and they contacted us individually for a 'meeting' to supposedly go over the results the Annual Meeting the weekend before.  It wasn't a meeting - in was a separate appointment to here Festiva's side of this story.  I think the people in front of me took their offer as they were signing on the dotted line. 

They are asking you to pay them money ($2900 plus the recording fees $195 at Barnstable county courthouse to *GIVE UP YOUR DEED FOREVER*.  In exchange you get a membership in their resort system. They are not buying your deed, you're paying them to take it!  

I am so ANGRY at the thought of how many people they will sucker in over the next few months.


----------



## Carolinian

theo said:


> My heart is genuinely warmed by such reported events of empowered owners, reinforcing that alert and involved owners are *not* necessarily just at the mercy of developers or, after sell-out of the facility unit / weeks, developer minions and lackeys.
> 
> However, I'm prompted to wonder how one would ever get started and / or proceed on such a quest in a state (Florida specifically and immediately comes to mind) where owner information is apparently much more "protected" and therefore virtually inaccessible to concerned owner(s) who might want to launch just such an admirable campaign there.
> Any thoughts on that particular scenario?



Actually, a couple of  the four resorts built by First Flight developers on the OBX had that situation when owners started their successful campaigns to kick out First Flight, not because of the law, but because they did not go to a lawyer to find out.  A digruntled employee of First Flight handed them the lists.  I do not know the Florida law, but would suggest talking to a Florida lawyer or at least to someone in the Corporatoins office or Real Estate Commmission.  The EU privacy laws are similarly idiotic in entrenching management in power in timeshares by making it at least difficult if not impossible to get lists.  Fortunately most states in the US give you access, and Mass. seems even more wide open on that than NC.  I did not own there at the time of the battles against First Flight but served with a long time board member who had been one of the leaders and heard all of his war stories from those campaigns.


----------



## theo

*Well said...*



ChrisH said:


> They are not buying your deed, you're paying them to take it!



Succinctly and correctly stated. It is absolutely astounding to me that people somehow fail to grasp this basic, fundamental truth. 

You would *think* that owning a deeded week, free and clear, for a lifetime of potential use, would make most people just  immediately burst out laughing at the very notion of coughing up a few thousand dollars to *both* give up what they already own *and* acquire something of much less value and certainty of access than what they currently own outright.


----------



## theo

*Thanks...*



Carolinian said:


> I do not know the Florida law, but would suggest talking to a Florida lawyer or at least to someone in the Corporatoins office or Real Estate Commmission.



Good ideas both --- and thank you. I'm told that there is an article in a very recent issue of _Timesharing Today_ magazine (a publication with which I am generally unimpressed) which cites some very specific Florida statutes on this matter. I'm going to first track down and digest that material and then examine the options. There is a certain multi-state entity of some _celebrity_ whose corporate offices (and a few properties) are based in the state of Florida and whose heavy handed practices in regard to BOD makeup and actions really just beg and plead for a good fight... :annoyed:


----------



## Timesharemogul

At the annual owners meeting on Saturday April 25th, Cliff Hagberg announced to those present that we would be receiving a copy of the minutes of the owners' meeting in a couple weeks' time. He also promised us that the new Sandcastle website would be up by May 15th. I want to give Cliff the benefit of the doubt so I'm asking here if any owners have received a copy of the official minutes of the owners meeting, and, I've searched the net for the new website....I believe Cliff said it would be something like SandcastleCapecod.com....maybe I'm mistaken?
I did find however new recent photographs of the resort on a website called EVRENTALS.com. That EV stands fo "Endless Vacation", the RCI magazine. And when I enter "EVRentals.com" in my web browser, the website redirects to www.wyndham-vacations.com where the banner in the left corner pronounces I've arrived at "Endless Vacation Rentals by Wyndham Worldwide". Odd- or maybe not? Then, searching for Massachusetts coastal rentals I found Sandcastle Resort and the recently new photographs.


----------



## ChrisH

*The URL doesn't bring you anywhere -*



Timesharemogul said:


> At the annual owners meeting on Saturday April 25th, Cliff Hagberg announced to those present that we would be receiving a copy of the minutes of the owners' meeting in a couple weeks' time. He also promised us that the new Sandcastle website would be up by May 15th. I want to give Cliff the benefit of the doubt so I'm asking here if any owners have received a copy of the official minutes of the owners meeting, and, I've searched the net for the new website....I believe Cliff said it would be something like SandcastleCapecod.com....maybe I'm mistaken?
> I did find however new recent photographs of the resort on a website called EVRENTALS.com. That EV stands fo "Endless Vacation", the RCI magazine. And when I enter "EVRentals.com" in my web browser, the website redirects to www.wyndham-vacations.com where the banner in the left corner pronounces I've arrived at "Endless Vacation Rentals by Wyndham Worldwide". Odd- or maybe not? Then, searching for Massachusetts coastal rentals I found Sandcastle Resort and the recently new photographs.




http://www.sandcastleresort@comcast.net/  is the URL in the NewsLetter from some time ago. Not working as of today.
I haven't rec'd any minutes either.  They're probably coming with the new assessment bills to be mailed this month.  (Greg Hughes told me the assessments would be mailed "this month" - "anyday now" - "sign here" - "save money" - "join Festiva")
I was on the RCI corporate site recently trying to find a contact to pose the question about RCI dumping Sandcastle or dumping weeks units and there are Wyndham connections there too.  Looks like RCI may possibly be combining with,  joining?, being consumed by? Wyndham?


----------



## PClapham

I believe rci is owned by Wyndham.  Isn't this the case?
Anita


----------



## Sou13

*Wyndham Worldwide*



PClapham said:


> I believe rci is owned by Wyndham.  Isn't this the case?
> Anita


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyndham_International


----------



## Corky

I spoke with Cindy today.  She told me that Festiva is still active at Sandcastle.  She didn't hear anything about Wyndham.

So far, no renovations have begun but the resort "might" shut down this winter to make improvements.

All the regular front desk people still have their jobs but are nervous.


----------



## ChrisH

*Sandcastle shutdown in winter*

They are always shutdown in winter because those weeks were never sold as timeshare.  Now NEVS or Festiva owns them, and they can use that time for renovations, which when I was there recently appeared to be fancying up the indoor pool area and changing the rugs/drapes/furniture etc. from their posters.  
In the past Sandcastle did so many units each year, not all at once.


----------



## ChrisH

*RCI RESPONDED to my questions!!!!! Festiva LIES*

From RCI: 

Hello,

Thank you for your e-mail.  We regret to hear of any misinformation you
may have received.

*There are no known plans to disaffiliate Sand Castle Resort from RCI at
this time.*
While we at RCI are very excited about RCI Points, this service simply
provides additional vacation options to its participants.  Please be
assured that the core of our business has always been the one-for-one
exchange.  The Points and Weeks programs are separate, and members have
their own individual preferences.  These two programs are provided to
allow more options for our members - not to move all members in one
direction or another.  The Weeks exchange system has been the heart of
our business from the beginning, and *we are dedicated to the long-term
success of both RCI Weeks *and RCI Points.

Thank you for contacting us.  Please let us know if we may be of further
assistance.

Kind Regards,

Beth Vaughn
Customer Communications
RCI North America


----------



## Fig

ChrisH said:


> I was told that:
> 1) RCI was no longer going to affiliate with Sandcastle unless it upgraded to a 'star' category resort and that II would not affiliate with Sandcastle until major improvements were made.
> 2) RCI was giving up 'weeks' resorts for only 'points' resorts.
> 3) RCI was actually getting out of the business, that the reason the new 'weeks' directory was 'so small' was that they were trying to get out of that business and dropping resorts.
> Chris



So basically, Outfield Marketing sits at the resort and lies all day to try to get owners to convert to points. Uggh. Seems the only way they can steal $3000 from owners for their worthless points. This is the top notch sales company Cliff Hagberg has chosen to affiliate himself with? And he wonders why owners are so ticked off at him. "Outfield is communicating changes at the resort" my eye...if they did, they would not make money...they have to lie in order to get people to give up their deed and get thier 3 grand. This is why Festiva is in hot water with two AGs...lies told by salesreps...and they continue...


----------



## Carolinian

So a points conversion broker is committing a fraud if they pressure a mark to convert based on lies about the resort being dissaffiliated or RCI ended its weeks program.  This makes every one of their conversions subject to legal action to rescind at any time up until the statute of limitations (in NC that would be 3 years).  Further, if it is like NC, it would fall under the Unfair or Deceptive Business Practices statutes which would allow recovery of treble damages plus attorneys fees.  Outfield would likely be held to be an agent of Festiva allowing a lawsuit against both.  The managment company which facilitated all of this could also be a potential defendant.

I would try presenting this evidence of fraud to the state AG, who could sue on behalf of all owners or could open an investigation which would likely halt the practice.  Also private attorneys can sue as well.  If this happened in North Carolina when I was in private practice I would have taken these cases in a heartbeat for the almost guaranteed court ordered legal fees.  If the law there is similar, perhaps you can find a local attoney who will take these cases, and then get the word out to all those who have been conned into a conversion by such false statements.




ChrisH said:


> From RCI:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Thank you for your e-mail.  We regret to hear of any misinformation you
> may have received.
> 
> *There are no known plans to disaffiliate Sand Castle Resort from RCI at
> this time.*
> While we at RCI are very excited about RCI Points, this service simply
> provides additional vacation options to its participants.  Please be
> assured that the core of our business has always been the one-for-one
> exchange.  The Points and Weeks programs are separate, and members have
> their own individual preferences.  These two programs are provided to
> allow more options for our members - not to move all members in one
> direction or another.  The Weeks exchange system has been the heart of
> our business from the beginning, and *we are dedicated to the long-term
> success of both RCI Weeks *and RCI Points.
> 
> Thank you for contacting us.  Please let us know if we may be of further
> assistance.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Beth Vaughn
> Customer Communications
> RCI North America


----------



## theo

*Non sequitors...*

[QUOTE/]=ChrisH;723768 I was on the RCI corporate site recently trying to find a contact to pose the question about RCI dumping Sandcastle or dumping weeks units and there are Wyndham connections there too.  Looks like RCI may possibly be combining with,  joining?, being consumed by? Wyndham?[/QUOTE]
==========================================

Wyndham owns RCI outright, an acquisition from Cendant Corp. a few years back. Wyndham owning RCI outright, however, really has little or no impact or relevance in regard to "branding" any timeshare facility as a Wyndham facility. Wyndham already had (and still has) more than enough of its own Wyndham (or former Fairfield) branded properties to handle already. 

RCI rarely, if ever, voluntarily "disaffiliates" with any resort under any circumstances. Interval International has minimum standards for affiliation, but not RCI. That said, if Festiva is trying to adopt or implement some sort of "internal" (i.e., non-RCI Points) "club" or "points product" of its own, it _might_ be that Festiva is attempting to distance itself from RCI.  

Wyndham as a corporation would be highly unlikely to have *any* interest whatsoever in acquiring (or managing) a facility like Sandcastle, or in having the Wyndham name become associated with it in any way. The facility is much too small and much too seasonal; it would not serve the Wyndham corporate image in any positive way to have its' name associated with such a facility. 

Just some scattered observations of fact of (maybe limited) relevance..


----------



## Sou13

theo said:


> Interval International has minimum standards for affiliation, but not RCI.


Funny, that's not what Director/Trustee/Manager Cliff Hagberg told the nearly 200 unhappy owners who came to the annual meeting last Saturday.  According to capeguitarguy Hagberg, he wants to affiliate Condo I with RCI but RCI won't accept us as we are.  Truth or "untruth", capeguitarguy?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Not true again, Sou13.  And you were at the meeting!


----------



## Sou13

NEVMSLLC said:


> Not true again, Sou13.  And you were at the meeting!


Tell us again what you told us at the meeting.  I must have had wax in my ears again.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

What I said was that RCI refused to affiliate the resort with RCI Points.


----------



## e.bram

Sou13:
You sure you didn't mean "happy owners"?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

By the way, what is this capeguitarguy thing all about?


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> By the way, what is this capeguitarguy thing all about?



It's your secret identity. You know, all super-heroes and villains have them.


----------



## Sou13

NEVMSLLC said:


> What I said was that RCI refused to affiliate the resort with RCI Points.


Do Condo I owners want to affiliate with RCI points?  You can affiliate with RCI without giving up your deed!


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Ah, Eric my friend, how've you been?  If I had super powers and a secret identity, I wouldn't be so obvious as to tell people I'm from the Cape and have a guitar!  It would be something like Timeshareman!!   

Sou13, you're just getting things all mixed up again.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Ah, Eric my friend, how've you been?  If I had super powers and a secret identity, I wouldn't be so obvious as to tell people I'm from the Cape and have a guitar!  It would be something like Timeshareman!!
> 
> Sou13, you're just getting things all mixed up again.



Cliff - I have been fine - thanks for asking. Sorry I missed your big shindig. 

And I think the owners at Southcape would say that you do have superpowers. At least as it pertains to sucking $$$ out of their wallets.


----------



## Betty

*South Cape*

First things first - South Cape questions and answers should not be here in the Sandcastle site.  All South Cape readers will not see this.

Now Cliff we have dealt with you before at the Ocean Club abd I have no complaints and I am willing to give you chance.

The thing I would like to know is when you were refused by RCI Points, why did you not wait until South Cape was repaired up to standads before going to  Festiva,  an outfit with questionable practices and a tarnished reputation?

It would seem that we would have been better served by waiting for RCI to approve their points system for us.

Betty's better half AL


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hi Al and thanks for the question.

RCI made it crystal clear that they would never consider Sandcastle for RCI Points.  Over the years, more and more owners are telling us that a points based system works very well for them and our first option was RCI Points.  When they turned us down, we looked for another points based system to give our owners another option.  There are many of them out there.

There is a lot on the internet about Festiva.  I find it interesting that most of it is about several sales companies that sold for Festiva some time ago.  Those outside sales companies did have problems and were fired by Festiva and no longer represent them.  Festiva ultimately took responsibility for hiring them and paid the price.  

With all of the talk about the former sales companies for Festiva, the reaction and performance of Festiva's points system is actually very positive.  They have an excellent program and very nice resorts in areas where New Englanders traditionally prefer to travel.  Their system made it a perfect fit with the travel patterns of the owners at Sandcastle.  People may have problems with the former sales companies but I've heard no complaints at all about the actual working of their points system.

It's only another option and no one is being "forced" to join Festiva Adventure Club.  For some people it works perfectly with the way they want to vacation and for other people it has no value at all.  At Sandcastle, it makes no difference to us at all if people join or not.  We affiliated with Festiva for the same reason we're working on affiliating the Sandcastle with Interval International.  II is a great company and we want our owners to have all the best options possible.

Does Betty know that you're the better half?  (I'm not sure she does!)


----------



## Fig

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Al and thanks for the question.
> There is a lot on the internet about Festiva.  I find it interesting that most of it is about several sales companies that sold for Festiva some time ago.  Those outside sales companies did have problems and were fired by Festiva and no longer represent them.  Festiva ultimately took responsibility for hiring them and paid the price.



Oh, lookey here...here is a company that is selling points for Festiva as I type. In fact Outfield Marketing is selling points for Festiva right now at Sandcastle and you have none other than the resort manager at another resort saying that Outfiled Marketing sells points by telling mistruths to people on no less than the resorts opening page. 

"....our owners have been approached while visiting other resorts or at home by members of the sales staff of Outfield Marketing who have made some false statements about Peppertree Maggie Valley during the sales presentation. Two of the statements being made are that “Peppertree Maggie Valley is not in good financial condition” and that “Peppertree Maggie Valley is going to go out of business” if the owners do not convert their week to the Festiva Adventure Club. These statements simply are not true. "

Here's the link...scroll down to Joe Moody, Resort Manager...and keep in mind as you read this that Festiva is currently being investigated by the NC Attorney General where this resort is located.

http://www.peppertreemv.com/owner.htm


----------



## Fig

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Al and thanks for the question.
> People may have problems with the former sales companies but I've heard no complaints at all about the actual working of their points system.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Well here's a few:
> 
> http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/festiva-resorts-c84042.html
> 
> And a nice little segment that aired this month about a very unhappy points system person in NC who just may be the tip of the iceberg:
> 
> http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/abc11_investigates&id=6789555


----------



## Carolinian

ChrisH said:


> They are always shutdown in winter because those weeks were never sold as timeshare.  Now NEVS or Festiva owns them, and they can use that time for renovations, which when I was there recently appeared to be fancying up the indoor pool area and changing the rugs/drapes/furniture etc. from their posters.
> In the past Sandcastle did so many units each year, not all at once.



If they are maintenance weeks, they should not be owned as voting weeks by anyone.  HOA inventory of foreclosed, deeded back, and never sold weeks when the timeshare is open and not intended for maintenance purposes can be voted in some associations but not others.  Maintenance weeks should never be voting weeks, and if management is counting these to maintain control, then they are way off base.


----------



## Carolinian

What absoulute crap!  Developers at largely sold-out resorts like points because it allows them to churn the product for their own profit, reselling back to people what they already have.  That is the ''demand'' for a points product.  In this churning process, it is common to lie about weeks going away, RCI going away, etc.  If points could stand on its own, they would not have to tell all the lies.  The lies Festiva's brokers are telling are very similar to the lies that RCI Points conversion brokers have been caught telling.

A good example of the appeal of a points system on its own, without all the usual lies, is a resort I traded into in Germany which had been affiliated with RCI Points for quite a while but did not allow the brokers to work over their members.  Presented just the facts without all the common points lies, only about 2% of the owners had opted to switch to points, and from what the manager told me, those were now mostly unhappy that they had.

A resort I used to own at in Australia also was in RCI Points at one time.  After experiencing points, however, they were one of about 8 Australian resorts that had been in RCI Points but bailed out and went back to RCI Weeks, prohibiting any further conversions.  Hooray for them!

Points is all about churning product.  It is not about the customer. If Hagberg had gotten on with RCI Points, it would just be a different set of lying brokers trying to strongarm members into a different points system.





NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Al and thanks for the question.
> 
> RCI made it crystal clear that they would never consider Sandcastle for RCI Points.  Over the years, more and more owners are telling us that a points based system works very well for them and our first option was RCI Points.  When they turned us down, we looked for another points based system to give our owners another option.  There are many of them out there.
> 
> There is a lot on the internet about Festiva.  I find it interesting that most of it is about several sales companies that sold for Festiva some time ago.  Those outside sales companies did have problems and were fired by Festiva and no longer represent them.  Festiva ultimately took responsibility for hiring them and paid the price.
> 
> With all of the talk about the former sales companies for Festiva, the reaction and performance of Festiva's points system is actually very positive.  They have an excellent program and very nice resorts in areas where New Englanders traditionally prefer to travel.  Their system made it a perfect fit with the travel patterns of the owners at Sandcastle.  People may have problems with the former sales companies but I've heard no complaints at all about the actual working of their points system.
> 
> It's only another option and no one is being "forced" to join Festiva Adventure Club.  For some people it works perfectly with the way they want to vacation and for other people it has no value at all.  At Sandcastle, it makes no difference to us at all if people join or not.  We affiliated with Festiva for the same reason we're working on affiliating the Sandcastle with Interval International.  II is a great company and we want our owners to have all the best options possible.
> 
> Does Betty know that you're the better half?  (I'm not sure she does!)


----------



## Betty

CLIFF

If you go back and read my post you will see I was talking about South Cape and not Sandcastle.

Betty's better half AL


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Then why are you on the Sandcastle board?


----------



## theo

*Place your bets, folks...*



NEVMSLLC said:


> We affiliated with Festiva for the same reason we're working on affiliating the Sandcastle with Interval International.  II is a great company and we want our owners to have all the best options possible.



I'm certainly not a gambling man by nature, but in this particular instance I'd gladly be willing to bet that Interval International would have (and will have) *absolutely nothing* to do with Sandcastle --- *particularly* with the  name / likes of Festiva in the mix. II wants or needs an affiliation like _that_ in much the same way that a fish needs a hat rack...


----------



## Betty

Because someone else started it there, and I wanted to follow the thought,
although I did mention that it shouldn't be here in the first
place.....


----------



## Sou13

NEVMSLLC said:


> By the way, what is this capeguitarguy thing all about?


Go to http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=726120#post726120 and let's get back to the Southcape owners who heard what you had to say at the meeting.  I didn't have wax in my ears, I was busy filling out the pink post-it notes pad, and most of what you reported to the owners had already been posted on TUG.  I've saved all of your posts, including the original post about an owner whom you claim you advised how to get out of a conversion after the rescission period was up!

So it was RCI "points" and not "exchanges" that Southcape owners can't get.  Have Southcape owners been requesting them?  

As for Interval International, Condo I owners are still able to join.  It's Condo II owners who presently can't get into I.I. without giving up their deeds to Festiva.  But most of the owners who've been getting calls from Outfield Marketing own weeks in Condo I and most of the owners who have "converted" owned deeds to weeks in Condo I!  If anyone doubts my word on this, I've copied them all down into an emailable attachment.*  In fact I even emailed a copy to "capeguitarguy" so he knows it's true.

*That was as of March 18, 2009.  There were over 150 then most of them Condo I owners.  The records today show more than 250 and again most of them are Condo I owners.


----------



## PClapham

Re Interval International and Sandcastle under Festiva:  We have a reservation at Church Street Inn (Chu) thru II and I believe it is managed by Festiva.
Anita


----------



## e.bram

IMHO. Southcape, Sandcastle are one and the same as far as this post is conderned. To a s;ightly lesser extent all Cape Cod TSs ane involved. But for  for the Grace of God go us.


----------



## ChrisH

*Then why is Outfield saying RCI is dropping weeks/dropping Sandcastle?*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Al and thanks for the question.
> 
> RCI made it crystal clear that they would never consider Sandcastle for RCI Points.  Over the years, more and more owners are telling us that a points based system works very well for them and our first option was RCI Points.  When they turned us down, we looked for another points based system to give our owners another option.  There are many of them out there.
> 
> There is a lot on the internet about Festiva.  I find it interesting that most of it is about several sales companies that sold for Festiva some time ago.  Those outside sales companies did have problems and were fired by Festiva and no longer represent them.  Festiva ultimately took responsibility for hiring them and paid the price.
> 
> With all of the talk about the former sales companies for Festiva, the reaction and performance of Festiva's points system is actually very positive.  They have an excellent program and very nice resorts in areas where New Englanders traditionally prefer to travel.  Their system made it a perfect fit with the travel patterns of the owners at Sandcastle.  People may have problems with the former sales companies but I've heard no complaints at all about the actual working of their points system.
> 
> It's only another option and no one is being "forced" to join Festiva Adventure Club.  For some people it works perfectly with the way they want to vacation and for other people it has no value at all.  At Sandcastle, it makes no difference to us at all if people join or not.  We affiliated with Festiva for the same reason we're working on affiliating the Sandcastle with Interval International.  II is a great company and we want our owners to have all the best options possible.
> 
> Does Betty know that you're the better half?  (I'm not sure she does!)




If RCI won't convert Sandcastle to Points - then why is the Outfield Marketing Rep at SANDCASTLE saying:
RCI is giving up weeks exchanges.
RCI is dropping the SANDCASTLE as it is a crappy resort.

and WHO are *'Over the years, more and more owners are telling us that a points based system works very well for them" * 
are any of them from the SANDCASTLE and are they complaining that the weeks system doesn't work?  Or are they just points owners who say we like our system?   Hardly a reason to change.  Oh that's right - if they don't change you won't get the MONEY!

WELL - OVER the 25+ years of my ownership -  the WEEKS system has worked well for me.  
Anyone else out there who wants to keep their SANDCASTLE weeks system?
Anyone out there, who wants to change SANDCASTLE to points?
Lets take a vote!!!!


----------



## ChrisH

*You live too far away - for them to ZAP you!!!*



PClapham said:


> WE haven't received a letter about anything re our Sandcastle week.
> Anita



You live in Cleveland, they won't send the rep out there.  They're working locally in New England and trying to get everyone here to convert - so you'll be stuck  with whatever is left.  
This is so sh**y


----------



## PClapham

I would prefer to stay in weeks.  
Anita


----------



## Craig

*Have not been contacted*

I own 3 weeks in the Coachman building and have not been contacted by anyone yet, and I live in MA. Maybe only Dune building owners are being contacted, as there are 2 separate HOAs??

I also am not interested in changing to points.


----------



## 225chs

I am an owner at Dunes. Live in the Mid-Atlantic States area. Received a call almost immediately after the announcement about Festiva. Outfield called me four times. After the fourth I got a bit angry on the phone and that was the last I heard from them.
I plan to keep my week as a weeks exchange and watch the situation carefully


----------



## ChrisH

*Phone # needed for contact!!!*



Craig said:


> I own 3 weeks in the Coachman building and have not been contacted by anyone yet, and I live in MA. Maybe only Dune building owners are being contacted, as there are 2 separate HOAs??
> 
> I also am not interested in changing to points.



If you've moved, changed your phone # etc. since you originally purchased at Sandcastle - they may not have current contact info to reach you.  I _don't think _it makes a difference which building.
Chris


----------



## Sou13

Craig said:


> I own 3 weeks in the Coachman building and have not been contacted by anyone yet, and I live in MA. Maybe only Dune building owners are being contacted, as there are 2 separate HOAs??
> 
> I also am not interested in changing to points.


Have you been looking at the deeds at the Barnstable County Registry?  Here's the one for the acquisition by NEVS:

DOCUMENT ABSTRACT 
Bk-Pg:23138-109    Recorded: 09-04-2008 @ 3:44:18pm  Inst #: 46644  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N


Pages in document: 76 
Grp: 1 
Type: Deed  Doc$: 1,200,000.00 
Desc: SEE INSTRUMENT 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 
Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 

Gtor: BARTH, VINCENT J (AS ID AS TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: WOODS, ROBERT P (AS ID AS TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: SOUTHCAPE TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: ACQUISITIONS INC (&O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (&O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: JEC PROPERTIES INC (&O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: SAND CASTLE NOMINEE TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: ROYAL COACHMAN CONDOMINUM TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: SAND CASTLE CONDOMINIUM TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 


 Return addr:  DUNNING KIRRANE MCNICHOLS & GARNER LLP 
  REGISTRY BOX # 9 
  P. O. BOX 560 
  MASHPEE, MA 02649 


Recording Fee: 100.00 State excise: 6,840.00 Surcharge: 25.00


----------



## strummer

*What cancellation policy? What ethics?*

I am somewhat embarrassed to admit that I converted to points. Then I requested cancellation within the legal time period and my card was charged the full amount of the sale a day after I canceled.

We had an appointment with Outfield Marketing at home earlier in the year, but the rep canceled due to car trouble, said he'd reschedule and we heard nothing more until we were at the Sandcastle for our week.

It appears that NEVMS management is participating in this thread, so I will state a few observations regarding the so-called "professional sales" team.

During our presentation:

I stated that the rep canceled our home appointment and my complaint was quickly ignored and dismissed.

I said I had been searching for the "new" Sandcastle website promised by Mr. Hagberg's letter of last year. I was told it's "being worked on". *It's June. A 12-year-old can create a website in half a day! Isn't the Internet an effective way of promoting a business and how much more money could the Sandcastle have earned if this had been done as promised.*

We were repeatedly told by the rep that he was "not on commission". At the end I said we'd think it over. He said that he only got paid to talk to us once and the decision (to spend over $3000) had to be made "now". He could not ever speak to us after that moment. This was so unbelievable that I was convinced not to do it. As we walked out, the other rep said we could have until morning.

Usually intelligent in these situations, for some reason I read the shoddy handouts and became concerned that our deeded week was wrong and that, if we didn't want to lose our timeshare we would have to comply. At least I am intelligent enough to know that there is a cancellation period following the sale.

We were shown every single piece of paper after signing, except the cancellation form, which was slipped into the stack of papers. We were given a fancy portfolio and catalogs, etc. and immediately dismissed.

After the presentation:
We reviewed the paperwork, found the cancellation notice and, I agree with the negative statements related to this matter. We sent the cancellation paperwork via Express Mail with delivery confirmed more than 12 hours before the deadline, in appropriate form. It was supposed to be sent to NEVS only. Suspecting it would be ignored, I also sent it to the sales office at the Sandcastle with a similar delivery time. Two days after I canceled, the charge appeared on my credit card and has been officially disputed.

I was never offered minutes of any meeting, nor do I have an owner's list. I can only advise anyone not to even make an appointment with these people because you will be subjected to high pressure sales tactics and extremely questionable business ethics. 

My conclusions: This shows the unprofessionalism of all involved in the "new" Sandcastle's future. It was no surprise to me that the cancellation was ignored and now we have to go through the hassle of pursuing this refund. Even if it's quick, the charge was illegal. I have a feeling that it's going to take some time. 

I will be formally requesting the meeting minutes and the owners' list. Since I am a 4 hour drive from the Sandcastle, I will expect to not have to appear in person. I am beginning to document all expenses, beginning with the Express Mail and including any unreasonable travel for documents that I'm entitled to, so I can recover them in future legal action.

In case you don't know, the card company (I expect this to be typical) will stop all your responsibility for the charge for the time being and welcomes and requests documentation of the delivery and cancellation, etc.)

I will update and add to this as time passes.

Glad I found this site. Thanks for all your input.


----------



## ecwinch

*File a complaint with the Mass AG*

Strummer,

I think you should file a complaint with the Mass AG. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

They have a fillable form on their website. See the info in my post on the Southcape thread.

Mass AG Complaint post


----------



## ChrisH

I agree that the best route to file a complaint is with the MASS AG.  This is clearly a violation of both Section 93A Consumer Protection and MGL Section 183B - Timeshare laws.

*We NEED more people from Sandcastle (and Southcape) to go to the Marketing Presentation and then file complaints.*

MGL 93A deals with fraud, deceit, misrepresentation, duress etc. 
MGL 183B deals with timeshare sales/laws.

And I keep finding MORE laws they broke the more I read it.
Chapter 183B: Section 41. Providing prospective purchaser with public offering statement and resale disclosures; cancellation of contract; damages 

Section 41. (a) A person required to deliver a public offering statement pursuant to subsection (c) of section thirty-seven shall, before transfer of a time-share and no later than the date of a contract of sale, provide a prospective purchaser with (i) a copy of the public offering statement and all amendments, exhibits and supplements thereto, and (ii) the disclosures required in the case of resales pursuant to subsection (a) of section forty-two. Unless the purchaser has received said materials more than three business days before the date of execution of any contract of sale or the transfer of a time-share, the contract or transfer shall be voidable by him until he has received said materials and for three business days thereafter. 
(b) If a purchaser elects to cancel a contract pursuant to subsection (a), he may do so by hand-delivering written notice thereof to the seller or to his agent for service of process, by mailing notice thereof to the seller or to his agent for service of process by registered mail, return receipt requested, by telegram or by courier service with guaranteed next day delivery. Notice shall be deemed given on the date of postmark or if by telegram or courier service on the date when transmitted from the place of origin. Cancellation shall be without penalty, and all payments made by the purchaser before cancellation shall be refunded immediately if the purchaser’s deposit check shall not have been deposited in the seller’s bank account or if it has been so deposited within seven days after receipt of the notice of cancellation, but in no event prior to the first business day following the date on which the amount of the deposit is finally and unconditionally credited to the seller’s account or if such deposit was made by credit card, such refund shall be made by immediate issuance of a credit to the purchaser’s credit card account.


----------



## ecwinch

I just want to make the point that going to the presentation, with the knowledge of what is going to happen, might taint your complaint.

My advice was for those who have already been subjected to the practice.


----------



## ChrisH

I totally agree with you except from the replies on this board it doesn't appear that many people have attended a presentation.  Several of the posts are from people that didn't meet with Outfield and are complaining about the repeated phone calls. 
It appears that only a few have actually gone to Outfields scam.  And now that more owners will be at Sandcastle as red season is upon us - they will snag more each week.


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you for sharing, strummer!*



strummer said:


> Usually intelligent in these situations, for some reason  . . . At least I am intelligent enough to know that there is a cancellation period following the sale.


I had the same experience with Greg Hughes.  In my case, it was VISA to the rescue, although "capeguitarguy" Cliff Hagberg tried to take the credit.


----------



## Sou13

*Any updates?*



strummer said:


> I am somewhat embarrassed to admit that I converted to points. Then I requested cancellation within the legal time period and my card was charged the full amount of the sale a day after I canceled.
> 
> We had an appointment with Outfield Marketing at home earlier in the year, but the rep canceled due to car trouble, said he'd reschedule and we heard nothing more until we were at the Sandcastle for our week.
> 
> It appears that NEVMS management is participating in this thread, so I will state a few observations regarding the so-called "professional sales" team.
> 
> During our presentation:
> 
> I stated that the rep canceled our home appointment and my complaint was quickly ignored and dismissed.
> 
> I said I had been searching for the "new" Sandcastle website promised by Mr. Hagberg's letter of last year. I was told it's "being worked on". *It's June. A 12-year-old can create a website in half a day! Isn't the Internet an effective way of promoting a business and how much more money could the Sandcastle have earned if this had been done as promised.*
> 
> We were repeatedly told by the rep that he was "not on commission". At the end I said we'd think it over. He said that he only got paid to talk to us once and the decision (to spend over $3000) had to be made "now". He could not ever speak to us after that moment. This was so unbelievable that I was convinced not to do it. As we walked out, the other rep said we could have until morning.
> 
> Usually intelligent in these situations, for some reason I read the shoddy handouts and became concerned that our deeded week was wrong and that, if we didn't want to lose our timeshare we would have to comply. At least I am intelligent enough to know that there is a cancellation period following the sale.
> 
> We were shown every single piece of paper after signing, except the cancellation form, which was slipped into the stack of papers. We were given a fancy portfolio and catalogs, etc. and immediately dismissed.
> 
> After the presentation:
> We reviewed the paperwork, found the cancellation notice and, I agree with the negative statements related to this matter. We sent the cancellation paperwork via Express Mail with delivery confirmed more than 12 hours before the deadline, in appropriate form. It was supposed to be sent to NEVS only. Suspecting it would be ignored, I also sent it to the sales office at the Sandcastle with a similar delivery time. Two days after I canceled, the charge appeared on my credit card and has been officially disputed.
> 
> I was never offered minutes of any meeting, nor do I have an owner's list. I can only advise anyone not to even make an appointment with these people because you will be subjected to high pressure sales tactics and extremely questionable business ethics.
> 
> My conclusions: This shows the unprofessionalism of all involved in the "new" Sandcastle's future. It was no surprise to me that the cancellation was ignored and now we have to go through the hassle of pursuing this refund. Even if it's quick, the charge was illegal. I have a feeling that it's going to take some time.
> 
> I will be formally requesting the meeting minutes and the owners' list. Since I am a 4 hour drive from the Sandcastle, I will expect to not have to appear in person. I am beginning to document all expenses, beginning with the Express Mail and including any unreasonable travel for documents that I'm entitled to, so I can recover them in future legal action.
> 
> In case you don't know, the card company (I expect this to be typical) will stop all your responsibility for the charge for the time being and welcomes and requests documentation of the delivery and cancellation, etc.)
> 
> I will update and add to this as time passes.
> 
> Glad I found this site. Thanks for all your input.



Any updates?  Keep us posted!


----------



## Sou13

*Meeting Minutes?*

Have Sandcastle owners received their owners' meeting reports?  We got ours (or can expect to be getting ours) this week.  They weren't meeting minutes, however, they were a report of what the new trustees wanted us to believe happened and was discussed at the meeting, author unknown.


----------



## Rambler65

*Where's Festiva?*

I am at Sandcastle this week, and have not seen or heard anything about Festiva, other than a white board that says welcome Festiva owners in the main lobby.  If invited, I plan to attend a meeting, but so far not a word from the scum balls.  My friend that was here earlier this year said Festiva was set up at a table when he arrived, but no such display this week.

There is a display set up in the lobby showing the work that was peformed on the pools, tennis court, and basketball court last year before the sale of Sandcastle took place.  Wonder if the new ownership is trying to get us to beleive they did the work.  Just more scumball tactics.


----------



## strummer

Sou13 said:


> Any updates?  Keep us posted!



In recent days I was contacted by Outfield Marketing to tell me that a "mistake had been made in the calculation of points" and they wanted me to call and "explain" the situation to me. I didn't call back, since I wanted to give Cliff Hagberg (whoever he is) and Greg Hughes (who doesn't respond to mail or answer his email) a chance to acknowledge my cancellation and credit my account.
I filed a grievance with the Mass. AG in the meantime.

Then decided to call Outfield Marketing in Texas. When the woman told me about the "mistake" I interrupted and said that I had canceled the order and should be credited with a refund. She said, "sure, I'll put through the credit to your account today." No argument, no objection, in fact she was very pleasant. I received the credit a couple of days later, much to my disbelief and pleasant surprise.

I told her that I cancelled and no one responded. She said the "wrong address" was on the cancellation paperwork and that was probably why.

I then received a somewhat contradictory letter from my credit card company who said that the vendor did not credit me with certain "non refundable fees" related to the sale. They said I could challenge the vendor directly... which I will do if necessary... however so far the full refund appears on my statement and I don't remember seeing any "nonrefundable" fees either in writing or mentioned in my presentation, but that isn't surprising.

The other significant info is that whoever New England Vacation Sales Management is (supposedly Cliff Hagberg), the address on Haws Avenue in Hyannis exists, though it is correctly spelled Hawes. Mail is delivered there, but as I found out nothing happens. And nowhere have I seen a phone number for his business, not from my late 2008 "newsletter" or anywhere else. These guys are masters at hiding, getting your money, then hiding again forever. If Mr. Hagberg is such a successful businessman, why doesn't he or the Sandcastle have a web site yet, and how do you service your customers without a valid address or phone?

At this stage I advise you to consider what is my new personal policy. Don't go near anyone who represents a business called New England Vacation Sales Management or Outfield Marketing. 

Strummer


----------



## Sou13

*Who is Cliff Hagberg?*

http://www.facebook.com/people/Cliff-Hagberg/620901308

http://twitter.com/capeguitarguy/status/1691771781

When you search the Massachusetts Corporate Database for "Hagberg" you find that HAGBERG REALTY, INC.  was voluntarily dissolved on 9/18,2008.


----------



## Fig

strummer said:


> In recent days I was contacted by Outfield Marketing to tell me that a "mistake had been made in the calculation of points" and they wanted me to call and "explain" the situation to me. I didn't call back, since I wanted to give Cliff Hagberg (whoever he is) and Greg Hughes (who doesn't respond to mail or answer his email) a chance to acknowledge my cancellation and credit my account.
> I filed a grievance with the Mass. AG in the meantime.
> 
> Then decided to call Outfield Marketing in Texas. When the woman told me about the "mistake" I interrupted and said that I had canceled the order and should be credited with a refund. She said, "sure, I'll put through the credit to your account today." No argument, no objection, in fact she was very pleasant. I received the credit a couple of days later, much to my disbelief and pleasant surprise.
> 
> I told her that I cancelled and no one responded. She said the "wrong address" was on the cancellation paperwork and that was probably why.
> 
> I then received a somewhat contradictory letter from my credit card company who said that the vendor did not credit me with certain "non refundable fees" related to the sale. They said I could challenge the vendor directly... which I will do if necessary... however so far the full refund appears on my statement and I don't remember seeing any "nonrefundable" fees either in writing or mentioned in my presentation, but that isn't surprising.
> 
> The other significant info is that whoever New England Vacation Sales Management is (supposedly Cliff Hagberg), the address on Haws Avenue in Hyannis exists, though it is correctly spelled Hawes. Mail is delivered there, but as I found out nothing happens. And nowhere have I seen a phone number for his business, not from my late 2008 "newsletter" or anywhere else. These guys are masters at hiding, getting your money, then hiding again forever. If Mr. Hagberg is such a successful businessman, why doesn't he or the Sandcastle have a web site yet, and how do you service your customers without a valid address or phone?
> 
> At this stage I advise you to consider what is my new personal policy. Don't go near anyone who represents a business called New England Vacation Sales Management or Outfield Marketing.
> 
> Strummer



Strummer, Festiva and Cliff regularly read these posts. Festiva is has complaints to AGs in several states. It is possible they credited you based on your board post figuring they would undo one of the many tangles they seem to have gotten caught up in. Good to hear of your success!

For the record, Cliff does claim to own a condo resale business on the Cape....but I looked at the address, and it appears to be a PO Box. He seems to have had an okay rep up until his involvement with Festiva and Outfield. Outfield is a total mystery. A president that works as a real estate agent in MD with an address that does not seem to exist. A headquarters in TX that is a toolshed in an asphalt parking lot assessed at less than it cost for a Festiva adventure club membership. How these guys pulled off a 2.5 million dollar loan is beyond me---except that they did it at a time when if you had a pulse you could get a loan. It looks like they thought they could sell memberships to pay it off...but I don't know why people would buy worthless memberships on points when you can pick up a deeded week on the Cape for a dollar on Ebay. This whole scheme looks like house of cards worth less than the toolshed in TX. 

Good luck to all!


----------



## ChrisH

In the Public Offering Statement it gives NEVS, LLC address in Denton, TX.  On some other documents it has 93 Haws Avenue Hyannis, MA plus the PO Box.  
Chris


----------



## Rambler65

The way the Festiva guys are working is at a desk in front as you check in, they try to hurd the owners.  Since we were in at 6:00, we never saw them.  After they get thru the appointments set up at check in, they call owners room to room and set up appointments for a "owners meeting," which turns out to be a sales pitch for Festiva.  Most people around Sandcastle are walking out, or leaving very mad after a couple of hours.  Haven't talked to anyone who converted yet, although one guy was ready but another owner talked him out of it.  Hopefully if they don't meet with much success, they will go away and leave us alone.


Be for warned if you come to Sandcastle and sign up for a owners meeting, it will be a high pitched sales meeting from a bunch of sleezeballs who want to steal your deeded property.  You will be lied to at the meeting about how great their point system is.  Don't fall for it.  Google Festiva, see how badly run that company really is.  You won't find many (if any) good write ups about Festiva.


----------



## ChrisH

*Well hopefully they will complain about it to the AG*

Hopefully some of the owners, even those that opt out - run away - will still be able to file complaints with the AG based on MGL 93A Consumer Protection - Chapter 93A: Section 2. Unfair practices; legislative intent; rules and regulations 

Section 2. (a) Unfair methods of competition and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in the conduct of any trade or commerce are hereby declared unlawful.  (includes fraud, deceit, misrepresentation of facts, pressure sales tactics)

RE04R08: Chapter 93A, Consumer Protection and Business Regulation for Real Estate Brokers and Salespersons

V. ILLEGAL PRACTICES UNDER 93A
A. Fraudulent or willful intent need not be proven.

B. Heightens licensee responsibility for statements and omissions

C. Licensees responsible for everything they know

D. Grey area of responsibility is what a licensee should have known

E. "Puffing’ is now illegal. 93A does not distinguish between opinion and fact.

F. Other illegal actions and misrepresentations

1. Any oppressive or otherwise unconscionable act or statement

2. Failure to comply with laws meant for the protection of the public's health, safety or welfare

3. Fraud or misrepresentation such as misstatements of facts in negotiations that lead to a contract
4. Seller provides a licensee false information and licensee relates this to buyer, without identifying seller as licensee's sole source of information, then broker is liable.

5. Making false claims about a property's construction, durability, safety or strength

6. Making false claims concerning the ease with which a property can be repaired or maintained

7. Making false claims about financing terms or availability

8. Substituting something different than what is advertised ("bait and switch")

9. Offering guarantees without disclosing the nature and extent of the guarantees

*10. A broker may be held liable for a misstatement in advertising even if the broker later informs a prospective buyer of the error.*

*11. Claims or representations concerning any real or personal property which directly, or by omission, serves to deceive a buyer in any material respect.*

12. Failing to disclose to a tenant or prospective tenant any fact that may have influenced the tenant not to enter into the transaction

*13. Even though the true facts are subsequently made known to the buyer, the law is violated if the first contact or interview is secured by deception.*

G. Generally, a violation of M.G.L. c. 142A (Regulation of Home Improvement Contractors) is automatically a violation of M.G.L. c. 93A,

*"A practice may be deceptive if it reasonably could be found to have caused the plaintiff to act differently than he otherwise would have acted...."

"It is an unfair and deceptive act under Chapter 93A for real estate sellers to affirmatively misrepresent the truth if they are aware of it."*

F*raudulent acts include false advertising; high-pressure sales tactics; “bait and switch schemes” (where one product or service is offered but another actually delivered); billing fraud, and use of contract language that misleads consumers*.  

The Law
Both Massachusetts and United States laws prohibit the use of "unfair or deceptive" practices by businesses. These practices are regulated by the Federal Trade Commission at the federal level and by the Attorney General's Office of Consumer Protection at the state level. 
Both the federal and state laws prohibit a series of specific practices and, in addition, prohibit any other practice that is determined to be unfair or deceptive to the consumer. These laws typically provide both for enforcement by the government to stop the practice and individual actions for damages brought by consumers who are hurt by the practices. This article will describe the kinds of actions that are prohibited by these laws and how consumers can use these laws to their advantage.
Who is covered by the law?
The Massachusetts Act limits coverage to unfair and deceptive acts "in the conduct of trade or commerce." This means that to be covered, the person committing the unfair or deceptive act must be in business. Sales between two private individuals, neither of whom are in the business of regularly selling are generally not covered by the Act. Therefore, a sale of a used car by the owner of the car wouldn't be covered if the owner is not otherwise a car dealer. Other than this basic category of exceptions, however, the law applies very broadly to most commercial transactions including real estate rentals and sales, to service businesses, and to any type of commercial sale of goods. 
The Massachusetts law is also limited in its coverage of phone solicitations and other kinds of transactions that involve out of state sellers. These kinds of transactions are covered by the Federal law because they involve actions in more than one state. The federal law is very much like the state one and generally prohibits the same.

Unfair and Deceptive practices are just what they sound like. They take place when someone in the position of a seller acts unfairly to or deceives a buyer. In Massachusetts the common types of unfairness and deception are specifically prohibited by Attorney General regulations but even if not mentioned specifically in the regulations, any other act that meets this definition is unlawful. In deciding whether a practice not specifically mentioned in the law is illegal, the courts consider whether it violates some established concept of fairness, whether it is immoral or unethical, whether it is likely to cause substantial harm to consumers and whether it is dishonest and/or violates the general notion of fair dealing between sellers and buyers.

Some Examples of Unfair or Deceptive Practices
Massachusetts regulations provide some specific examples of actions that are considered unfair and deceptive. Below are some examples of these actions:
False advertising and other misrepresentations - advertising and statements which have the tendency to mislead are illegal. These include:

actual false statement in advertisements about a products quality, ingredients, or effectiveness 
fake testimonials and endorsements 
pictures of the wrong merchandise in ads trying to sell some other item that imply the picture is of the item being sold 
faked pictures of the product performing in a way that it cannot actually perform 
Use of prices in ads that are not the real price of the merchandise described or pictured 
Advertising sale items that are not actually available to convince people to visit the sellers store or business or sending flyers with some sale items and some sale items where the actual items that are on sale are not clearly identified. 
"Bait and Switch" advertising - this is a technique by which the seller advertises an item for sale at a particularly good price or on particularly good terms but does not really want to sell that item. When the consumer comes to their business after seeing the advertisement the seller discourages the purchase of the advertised item and instead tries to convince the buyer to purchase a different item for a higher price or on less favorable terms. The seller's techniques for discouraging the purchase of the object can vary and can include refusing to demonstrate, show or discuss the advertised item, representing that the item is not a good product or it has a poor guarantee or doesn't work properly, demonstrating a defective or poorly performing example of the product, and failing to have the item available to purchase (unless the advertising accurately and clearly stated the limitations on availability). 
Deceptive statements of guarantees in advertisements - the statement must identify the nature of the guarantee and who is offering it (the manufacturer, the seller or someone else), what parts of the product are covered and what is required of the consumer to make a claim under the guarantee. 
If an ad says that a product is "unconditionally guaranteed" or says "satisfaction or your money back" or words to that effect, the use of the term is deceptive unless the seller will refund the full purchase price, replace the product or repair the product and the BUYER has the right to choose which of these alternatives he or she wants. 
Deceptive Pricing Practices - The law also regulates the use of price representations and practices. Below are some of the common pricing practices that the law prohibits:

Claiming that the item is on sale by artificially and untruthfully pretending the product usually sells for a price higher than its normal price. The price represented to be the products "regular" price must be a real price that the product in fact sold for during some significant time in the recent past in the seller's own stores. 
Misrepresenting the price that the same product is sold at by competitors 
Placing fake price stickers on merchandise with higher than actual prices so that the product appears to be marked down when in fact it isn't 
Claiming that a product may be purchased for one price when in fact the actual price is higher 
Advertising an item at a very good price to induce customers to come in and then only selling the item at that price if the purchaser also buys another more expensive product. 
Using the terms "special price" or "priced for sale" or "clearance priced" or similar terms when the items are not being sold at reduced prices and without clearly disclosing the actual former price or the percentage reduction from the former price that is actually being offered. 
Charging for good or services at higher rates than the marked, published or advertised price; 
Giving an unrealistically low estimate for a job in order to get it and then charging for a variety of "extras" to increase the price of the job when those extras should clearly have been included in the regular price of the job. 
This is by no means a complete list - these are only examples of the kinds of conduct that are covered. If you think the average person would consider a practice unfair or deceptive, it probably is.


----------



## Rambler65

Can you file a complaint even if you walk away from the BS they are spewing?

If yes, I'll file.  They seem to try to go after the elderly.  Pure scum.

Where is the MA AG information?


----------



## JackB62

*Massachusetts AG info*

Thanks for responding and wanting to complain to the AG.

We need more people to do so until we reach a critical mass.

The wording of your complaint isn't nearly as important as the number
of complainants.

Send to:

Martha Coakley
Attorney General
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
One Ashburton Place
Boston, MA 02108


----------



## Sou13

*File a Consumer Complaint*

*File a Consumer Complaint*

*Before Filing a Complaint*

The Attorney General’s Public Inquiry & Assistance Center Hotline, (617) 727-8400, is staffed with trained professionals who will review your complaint and determine whether it is appropriate for a free, voluntary mediation service we provide, or whether to direct you to another government agency or other resource.  If the complaint is one we believe we may be able to assist you with, the Hotline staff will contact you before they attempt to contact the business or other organization on your behalf to see if the matter can be resolved outside of court.

Please note that in order to expedite the processing and resolution of your complaint, we may refer it to a Local Consumer Program that serves your area.  These programs are funded by and work in connection with our office, providing the same free, voluntary mediation services. 

The AGO cannot provide legal advice to consumers.  If you have questions concerning the specific application or interpretation of the law, we will suggest that you consult a private attorney.  If you do not have an attorney we will provide information that may assist you in locating an attorney.

Before filing a complaint, please review the other consumer protection pages on this website for information that may help you to decide whether to file a complaint with the Attorney General’s Office or use other resources that may be more appropriate for your situation.  

*File a Consumer Complaint*

To file a complaint, review the instructions below for filing by mail and filing electronically, and download and complete the Consumer Complaint Form:

Consumer Complaint Form (Fillable PDF)

Please note: if you need to attach additional documentation to your complaint, you must send these by regular mail rather than electronically.  For security reasons, additional email attachments will not be opened.

File by Mail

To file your complaint via regular mail, you may complete the form and click the “Print Form” button on the bottom of the second page; or print out a blank copy by clicking the “Print Form” button on the bottom of the second page of the form and complete it by hand.

Send your paper complaint to:

PublicInquiry & Assistance Center
Attorney General’s Office
One Ashburton Place
Boston, MA 02108

File Electronically
You must have Adobe Reader Version 7 or higher installed on your computer to access the form.  This program is available to download for free on the Adobe website. 

If you use a Web-based email system, rather than an email software client (such as Microsoft Outlook, Outlook Express, or Mozilla Thunderbird), please see below for additional information about filing electronically.  To file this form via email, please make note of the following instructions:

If you typically use your installed email software client to send messages, fill out the form online and click on “Submit by Email.” Your email software will automatically open, addressed to emailcomplaints@state.ma.us, with your complaint attached to the message as an .xml file. Send the email to complete the filing of your Consumer Complaint.
If you typically use a Web-based email tool (such as Gmail, Yahoo, or Hotmail), fill out the form online and click on “Submit by Email.” Your email software will automatically open, addressed to emailcomplaints@state.ma.us, with your complaint attached as an.xml file. Before you close out of the email software, you will need to save the .xml file attachment to a folder on your computer. Once the document has been properly saved, you may open your Web-based email account and re-attach the .xml file. Please send your email message with the attachment to emailcomplaints@state.ma.us.


----------



## ChrisH

*Here's the Sandcastle Website link*

Here's the Sandcastle WebSite - some pages are incomplete 

This appears to be the website. Has reservations, room accomodations, general info about area- pictures etc. Other info is still blank ie. Owners and Sales. 

http://www.sandcastlecapecod.com/


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## mweinberg

*Good Guys / Bad Guys*

I just returned from my week at the Sandcastle, which included an approximately 90 minute “conversation” with a rep from Outfield followed by a nice 90 minute chat with Cliff Hagberg at a picnic table.  I got up from my chat with Cliff thinking that he was being badly maligned here.  He corrected much of the mis-information I had been given during the sales pitch, and he seemed almost apologetic for the over-exuberance of the sales force.

Now that I’m home, however, and I’ve had a chance to reread both my notes from the meetings (I’ll post more about both conversations later) and some of the posts here, I find myself more confused than ever.  In fact, I’m not even sure exactly who I’m dealing with.  It has been posted here that New England Vacation Services shares both principals and an address with Outfield Marketing.  And I was told during the sales pitch that “the president of your homeowners’ association,” (Cliff Hagberg?), “is a member of the board of directors of Festiva.”

So who exactly are the players?  Can anyone shed any definitive light on the relationship between New England Vacation Services, Festiva, and Outfield Marketing?  I had been told during the sales meeting that it would be easy to check, since “Festiva is a publicly traded company,” but this seems to be just one of many untrue statements that came across the desk.

The problem is that I’m beginning to suspect that we’re dealing here with more than simple deceptive and coercive sales tactics.  Cliff told us that eventually, Outfield will be selling deeded weeks as well as points, but if their income depends on the sale of points, then I can’t imagine that happening.  I’m not usually one to see conspiracies, but I’m beginning to suspect that the story of NEVS as a kindly force trying to rescue the Sandcastle is just a myth.

Can anyone shed any light on any of this?  And more importantly, what can we as owners do to protect ourselves from what amounts to a hostile takeover?


----------



## ecwinch

mweinberg said:


> I just returned from my week at the Sandcastle, which included an approximately 90 minute “conversation” with a rep from Outfield followed by a nice 90 minute chat with Cliff Hagberg at a picnic table.  I got up from my chat with Cliff thinking that he was being badly maligned here.  He corrected much of the mis-information I had been given during the sales pitch, and he seemed almost apologetic for the over-exuberance of the sales force.
> 
> Now that I’m home, however, and I’ve had a chance to reread both my notes from the meetings (I’ll post more about both conversations later) and some of the posts here, I find myself more confused than ever.  In fact, I’m not even sure exactly who I’m dealing with.  It has been posted here that New England Vacation Services shares both principals and an address with Outfield Marketing.  And I was told during the sales pitch that “the president of your homeowners’ association,” (Cliff Hagberg?), “is a member of the board of directors of Festiva.”
> 
> So who exactly are the players?  Can anyone shed any definitive light on the relationship between New England Vacation Services, Festiva, and Outfield Marketing?  I had been told during the sales meeting that it would be easy to check, since “Festiva is a publicly traded company,” but this seems to be just one of many untrue statements that came across the desk.
> 
> The problem is that I’m beginning to suspect that we’re dealing here with more than simple deceptive and coercive sales tactics.  Cliff told us that eventually, Outfield will be selling deeded weeks as well as points, but if their income depends on the sale of points, then I can’t imagine that happening.  I’m not usually one to see conspiracies, but I’m beginning to suspect that the story of NEVS as a kindly force trying to rescue the Sandcastle is just a myth.
> 
> Can anyone shed any light on any of this?  And more importantly, what can we as owners do to protect ourselves from what amounts to a hostile takeover?



I find your post a little confusing. You start off by saying that you feel Cliff has been badly maligned. 

Then you proceed to outline that he corrected incorrect information from the sales process. Then you question the confusing business relationship. 

Keep in mind, that Cliff is in the thick of all this. Given the complaints that have been made here regarding the sales process, ones that were specifically directed at Cliff, do you not think that Cliff shares some responsibilty for that mis-information? He at least is standing by while it occurs. 

I have no doubt, that Cliff is a very personable individual. But do not let yourself become beguiled by his personality.

At one point, he attempted to post here in an attempt to clarify misunderstandings. However that just led to questions that he refused to answer, and he stopped. If everything they have done is legal and correct, what does he have to hide?


----------



## mweinberg

ecwinch said:


> I find your post a little confusing. You start off by saying that you feel Cliff has been badly maligned.
> 
> Then you proceed to outline that he corrected incorrect information from the sales process. Then you question the confusing business relationship.



I'm sorry for the confusion.  I got up from our conversation feeling that he had been maligned, but that was before I had a chance to look over my notes and to process what he had said.

He certainly is charming, and he tried to make it sound like he was this knight in shining armor who had stepped in to rescue the poorly run and poorly managed Sandcastle.  But he really just danced around my questions about who is who on the playing field.

If my post sounded like I was defending Cliff, that was certainly not my intention.  On the contrary, I fear for what might be in store for all of us.

After I've had a chance to go back through my notes, I'll post again with some details from my meeting with Outfield.  It might be helpful for people who haven't yet been subjected to it to know what is in store for them.


----------



## Rambler65

There is now a Sandcastle blog where up to date information will be posted as it develops.  There will also be a form letter that can be copied and mailed to the MA AG.  If you have been contacted by Festiva and lied to, I urge you to copy the letter (when available) and mail it in, or use the PDF form provided by sou13 above.

http://sandcastleowners.blogspot.com/


----------



## Rambler65

There is a sandcastle owner who has started collecting a mailing list of Sandcastle owners.  So far the list contains about 150 owners. If you are not yet on this list, would like to be included and get a copy, PM me and I'll get you hooked up.

Rambler


----------



## Sou13

*Sandcastle blog*



Rambler65 said:


> There is now a Sandcastle blog where up to date information will be posted as it develops.  There will also be a form letter that can be copied and mailed to the MA AG.  If you have been contacted by Festiva and lied to, I urge you to copy the letter (when available) and mail it in, or use the PDF form provided by sou13 above.
> 
> http://sandcastleowners.blogspot.com/


Unfamiliar as I am with blogspot, I tried to post a comment and now find myself listed as a "friend" but was unable to post because I didn't know my OpenID URL!  We need to unite as "the many" Southcape and Sandcastle victims of the "few"!


----------



## NEVMSLLC

*Hello*

This is Cliff Hagberg.  I am concerned about some of the things I'm reading on here and I'm here to try and answer what questions I can from owners at the Sandcastle.  I cannot answer legal questions as I'm not an attorney, but other questions, I will be happy to answer.

I look forward to hearing from you.


----------



## mweinberg

*Questions for Cliff*



NEVMSLLC said:


> This is Cliff Hagberg.  I am concerned about some of the things I'm reading on here and I'm here to try and answer what questions I can from owners at the Sandcastle.  I cannot answer legal questions as I'm not an attorney, but other questions, I will be happy to answer.
> 
> I look forward to hearing from you.


Given the amount of confusion expressed within this forum, I’m rather surprised that no one has yet taken you up on your offer of answers and explanations.  I actually have a number of questions I’d like to pose to you.

1. _What exactly is the business relationship between New England Vacation Services, Outfield Marketing, and Festiva?_  When Outfield first began contacting me by telephone, I was repeatedly told that the three entities are completely separate.  I was told that New England Vacation Services is the developer/owner of the Sandcastle, Festiva is a timeshare trade company, and Outfield is an independent firm hired by Festiva to do marketing.  However, it appears that New England Vacation Services and Outfield Marketing share an address in Texas, an odd location for a company whose goal is the development of property on Cape Cod, and I was told that “The president of your” (Sandcastle’s) “homeowners’ association is a member of the board of directors of Festiva.”  How interrelated are these three firms?

2. _What are the business goals of New England Vacation Services?_  Sandcastle owners were told in your introductory letter last year that you purchased unsold inventory at the Sandcastle to improve the property and to give owners more trading flexibility and options.  From appearances, however, it seems that the goal is to get owners to give up their deeds and join Festiva.  

3. _Why are deeded owners not represented in the Sandcastle’s decision-making group?_  If, as you state, you welcome owners to keep their deeds and plan to continue selling deeded weeks, such owners should have an integral voice in decisions.  It is not fair to deeded owners that, according to other postings here,  ¾ of the members of the board of trustees are connected with Outfield Marketing.

4. _Why has it been reported in postings on this forum that Sandcastle owners have been denied copies of a current owners’ list?_  While I, too, am no attorney, Massachusetts General Law, Chapter 183B, section 32 seems to clearly grant owners the right to such a list.  

5. _What action has been taken against sales people for making dishonest statements and fraudulent claims?_  When we spoke last week, you seemed genuinely concerned about some of the misinformation I had been given.  If you allow this dishonesty to continue, people might conclude that you actually condone such sales tactics.

6. _Why has the Master Deed for the Sandcastle not been published?_  The Master Deed for South Cape Resort is available on their website, but this has not been done at the Sandcastle.


----------



## Rambler65

Well stated mweinberg.  

All the questions you pose do a great job of suming up the discussions on this board and will go a long way to clear up just what is happening at Sandcastle, if Cliff posts the answers.

A few of us have letters written and ready to mail to the MA AG voicing our concerns, but will hold off a day or two till we read Cliff's reply.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

I must admit to some surprise that, after what I thought was a very cordial meeting, you decided to post your concerns on this forum rather than contacting me directly for answers.  I had thought we had an understanding that if you had questions, I gave you my email address and phone number.  Nevertheless, I will answer your questions here.

1.  The three entities are completely separate.  NEVS, purchased the inventory and the rights of the former developer who controlled Sandcastle for the past twenty or so years.  Festiva is an independent exchange company and Outfield does sell memberships for Festiva.  Outfield was not hired by Festiva.  Outfield is in Texas and NEVS is in Hyannis, MA.  No one involved with the Sandcastle is on the board of Festiva.  Nor is anyone in NEVS, Outfield or the Sandcastle involved with Festiva in any way. 

2.  Not true.  NEVS purchased the inventory to sell it and recoup their investment. 

3.  Along with the purchase of the inventory went a bundle of rights referred to as Declarant rights.  This gives the developer control of the property until sold out.  For twenty years, the former developer never tried to sell out and thus retained control of the resort.  NEVS essentially purchased the former developer's position and is in the process of selling the inventory so that eventually, control will be in the hands of the owners where it should have been 20 years ago.  

This is one of the reasons why I personally asked if you were interested in being a member of an owner's advisory committee so that owners would finally have input into the future of the Sandcastle.

4.  While I can't give you a legal opinion, I can tell you that no resort I know of in New England, or anywhere else for that matter, will release the owner's private and confidential information. Management's job is to protect the owners. 

5.  Action has been taken.  Everything that you and I discussed personally has been done.  In addition, further steps have been taken this week. 

6.  The master deed and other legal documents are a matter of public record and can be viewed by anyone at the Barnstable County Registry of Deeds.  

As I said, I'm happy to answer questions from owners.

Cliff


----------



## ginnyB60

*Personal Information*

Please be aware that as an owner at Sandcastle I would be extremely upset if the management were to pass my personal information on to any third party, including other owners, outside businesses, etc.

I have discussed this with several other owners and they feel the same way.

Management take note.


----------



## Fig

ginnyB60 said:


> Please be aware that as an owner at Sandcastle I would be extremely upset if the management were to pass my personal information on to any third party, including other owners, outside businesses, etc.
> 
> I have discussed this with several other owners and they feel the same way.
> 
> Management take note.



Which begs the question WHO passed all owner info...no, not just owner info...leases... to Outfield Marketing so that they could fly around the country, leases in hand and arrive at people's doors and try to get them to give up all voting rights attached to such leases and pay $3000 for such a loss...WHO is protecting here?


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## dneuser

_QUOTE: 3. Along with the purchase of the inventory went a bundle of rights referred to as Declarant rights. This gives the developer control of the property until sold out. For twenty years, *the former developer never tried to sell out and thus retained control of the resort.* NEVS essentially purchased the former developer's position and is in the process of selling the inventory so that eventually, control will be in the hands of the owners where it should have been 20 years ago. End Quote_

I'm curious about the above statement.  We purchased weeks directly from Jewel at the resort after staying there on an exchange a few years ago.  Available inventory was clearly posted on the bulletin board with prices.  Earlier we had been working with your office at IVS Realty and had gotten close to making an offer on 2 weeks but got a better deal from Jewel.  The developer even accepted an offer below the asking price (which Jewel said was not likely to happen).  When we contacted your office to say we were going with the resort detal the person in your office (whose name escapes me now) said it wasn't a bad deal and we should probably take it.  We appreciated his honesty.  By the way - he was a very nice man and very pleasant to work with - I wish I could remember his name.

My point is, this doesn't sound like Sandcastle developer or office agent was trying to avoid selling weeks.  The developer may have had a tipping point beyond which they wouldn't sell so as to retain control.  So it begs the question - what's your tipping point.  What's the "magic number" beyond which you will no longer retain control - if that's not too personal a question?  How many weeks do you need to sell to give a deeded owner a real seat on the board with a real vote?  Since it's not too likely that you'll sell too many of those out-of-season weeks any time soon, what, if anything, do the by laws say about adding additional seats to the board in an advisory capacity?


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## mweinberg

Cliff,

I’m sorry that you were surprised by my posting, but, if you remember correctly, while I gave you my business card, you said that you had none with you since you hadn’t expected to be at the Sandcastle.  So this was really the easiest way I had to contact you.  More importantly, the questions I raised are not mine alone.  Just a quick look back at postings on here shows that other owners have the same questions, confusion, and concerns.  This is really the only forum available for the open exchange of information among owners.

While you seem like a very charming guy and I enjoyed talking with you, I can’t quite escape the feeling that you might be telling owners what we want to hear.  For example, your posting yesterday reassured me that “The three entities” (NEVS, Outfield Marketing, and Festiva) “are completely separate.”  I spent a long time last night reading through your previous posts, and on March 7, 2009, you said, “Tom Franks and Steve Lamantia have interests in Outfield” and that “Outfield and I own NEVS.”  That doesn’t sound very separate to me.

Also, you stated that no resort you know “in New England, or anywhere else for that matter, will release owner’s private and confidential information.”  Actually, I believe you know of one quite intimately, and that’s the Sandcastle.  The Sandcastle clearly provided personal owner information to Outfield Marketing; there is just no other plausible explanation for the barrage of dinnertime telephone calls that owners received from Outfield during the winter and spring.

My question about the master deed was a matter of fairness and convenience.  South Cape owners, as I pointed out, have free online access to their master deed on the South Cape website.  I am aware that I can inspect a copy at the Barnstable County Registry of Deeds.  And I’m sure that you are aware that the County Registry charges $1 per page to provide copies of documents.  I merely wanted to save myself a significant expense.

As a high school English teacher, I readily admit to my lack of business experience and acumen.  Unlike many of the regulars who post on TUG, I own a single week in a single unit at a single resort.  I had, in fact, been considering buying another unit to use for trade and rental, but with the uncertainty of future costs, this is clearly not the time to do that.  This is why I asked when we spoke about inventory at a different timeshare resort.

Although I have both traded and rented my unit in the past, I bought it originally for the simple reason that I love Provincetown.  Rather than being argumentative, I am merely interested in protecting my investment.  Last year, when I was unable to use my week at the Sandcastle, I rented a 2-bedroom, 2-bathroom, 1600 square foot home just a 5 minute walk from the beach and a 10 minute walk to the center of town.  If, as threatened by the representatives of Outfield, the annual carrying cost of my timeshare comes to exceed the $1400 I paid for this rental, it seems to me that my timeshare will then be essentially worthless.

My fear, and the fear of others if I may take the liberty of speaking for them, is that deeded owners are being taken advantage of by Outfield Marketing, which, in part, runs the resort.  While Festiva might offer some attractive trade options, owners can trade through RCI or II, but trading through Festiva requires not only the surrender of one’s deed, but also the payment of a hefty fee to do it.  Yet owners are being subjected to a high-pressure, disingenuous conversion scheme conducted by the same people who help run the resort.  I hope you can see why this is of concern to people.  Rather than being given increased options, owners are clearly being steered in one single direction.  Promises are being made in conversion presentations which are not supported by anything in writing, and owners are being told that a decision has to be made on the spot. 

If you are truly concerned about being misunderstood and maligned in these postings, I’d suggest that you might want to take a look at your relationship with Outfield Marketing and what you have already admitted to be a series of prevarications and half-truths.  It would do a great deal for your credibility if you were to have the Outfield representatives pack their things and then run them out of town.  I can't understand how a nice guy like you got hooked up with them in the first place.


----------



## Sou13

*This is how he dances around the issue*

Here's a quote from another discussion:

_He was very nice and informative. Our conversation led me to believe that there is not as much going on negatively as has been presented or possibly assumed.

Mr. Hagberg seems to be a  professsional and also indicated that he is a property owner at Southcape who stated that his interests are in making Southcape the best Southcaoe it can be.

He stated that there will be transparency in the budgeting and dealings, and that  to the extent Festiva ends up with a Points system, it will be optional, and they will not have voting rights as the voting rights will remain with the deeded owners.

He stated that New England Vacation Services LLC of which he is one of four principals, or managing members, and the other 3 are principals of Outfield Marketing.

He stated that the special assessment would raise sufficient funds in his professional opinion to upgrade and make neccessary repairs and improvements and taht there would be a budget and source and use of funds sheet prepared and distributed.

He stated that the Board of Trustees of Southcape was contemplating establishing an advisory council of selected owners to particiapte in decisions and assist in distributre information to other owners etc.

Further that the similarity between Southcape and Sandcastle were such in that he is the owner of a different entity that is involved in that.http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92570​_Now can anyone help me dig up the one where he admits that those "principals of Outfield Marketing" own 75% of NEVS?


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## NEVMSLLC

Hey Sou13, no one has to look it up, it's a fact.  You posted again where I've stated it and I've stated it several times.  It's certainly not a secret, anyone can look it up.  And you're not even an owner here.


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## tombo

ginnyB60 said:


> Please be aware that as an owner at Sandcastle I would be extremely upset if the management were to pass my personal information on to any third party, including other owners, outside businesses, etc.
> 
> I have discussed this with several other owners and they feel the same way.
> 
> Management take note.



For the many new posters here on TUG, this is probably a NEVS post and possibly even Cliff himself. This "guest" has a total of one posts. To find this thread that has been running for months, read it, and as an owner feel that the only input you need to give is to tell Mgt that they would be upset if their information was passed to anyone including owners is ridiculous. Everyone see this for what it is. This is probably a shill post IMO. NEVS and/or Outfield and/or Festiva must be very nervous if they have resorted to posting fake posts like this. It looks like someone got someone's attention.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hey Tombo, my favorite conspiracy theorist!!  Isn't it kind of you to attack a newbie's first post. Particularly from you who's posted almost 1,500 times on everything under the sun here on Tug. (check him out for yourselves, folks) I've noticed you only attack people who might not agree with you.  What's the matter, don't you believe in free and open dialogue? Or would you rather keep trying to intimidate people who know more than you do?   I think it's obvious to everyone on here that you're nothing more than some guy with nothing else to do than to try and create problems where none exist.  Goodness, gracious, Tombo, you don't even own at the resort and as near as I can tell, you've never even been there.  And yet, you have opinion after opinion without any actual knowledge.  Hey, here's a thought.  How about actually visiting a resort and finding out what's going on before you shoot your mouth off?

Cliff

P. S.  I promise you I don't need anyone to speak for me.  I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself and I have no need to hide behind a fake name, either.


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## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hey Tombo, my favorite conspiracy theorist!!  Isn't it kind of you to attack a newbie's first post. Particularly from you who's posted almost 1,500 times on everything under the sun here on Tug. (check him out for yourselves, folks) I've noticed you only attack people who might not agree with you.  What's the matter, don't you believe in free and open dialogue? Or would you rather keep trying to intimidate people who know more than you do?   I think it's obvious to everyone on here that you're nothing more than some guy with nothing else to do than to try and create problems where none exist.  Goodness, gracious, Tombo, you don't even own at the resort and as near as I can tell, you've never even been there.  And yet, you have opinion after opinion without any actual knowledge.  Hey, here's a thought.  How about actually visiting a resort and finding out what's going on before you shoot your mouth off?
> 
> Cliff
> 
> P. S.  I promise you I don't need anyone to speak for me.  I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself and I have no need to hide behind a fake name, either.



Dear capeguitarguy, oops NEVMS, I mean Cliff. A person going by the name capeguitarguy became a member of an owners group started by Sou13. SOU13 found out it was actually you and called you on it. In post 91 you act confused about what this capeguitarguy thing is all about. In post 94 you deny that capeguitarguy is you and you say that you wouldn't have used the name capeguitarguy because it would be too obvious. Later capeguitarguy did end up to be you as was shown in post number 126. http://twitter.com/capeguitarguy/status/1691771781
How I could possibly think that you might hide behind a fake name?

Let's see. You say no problems exist, yet complaints have been filed with the AG.That usually means that there is a problem. 

I started posting on this thread to warn owners about Festiva because of what has happened and what is still happening at MY RESORT since Festiva took over. Please re-read my early posts. Most of the things I warned about have occurred. I warned about the board being taken over, you have placed Outfield Mktg people as trustees. My warning was justified. I warned about forced assessments with no vote of the owners. The assessments also came as I warned. I warned that they would be told that upgrades would be required and that too has occured.  I warned that many owners would be tricked into converting to Festiva points and that too has happened and is still happening. My conspiracy theories have come true and dates on posts show that I predicted these things before they happened. I am either psychic (I am not), a good guesser (possibly), or I simply assumed correctly that the actions that were taken at other resorts would also be taken at this resort unless owners could prevent it.

My opinion of Festiva hasn't changed. I still feel that Festiva is a bad company for owners since they take over resorts and leave owners with no vote as to the direction the resort takes, no vote on assessments, no input on upgrades, and no choice in having a company other than Festiva manage the resort since they eventually control the vote and the board. 

I have not posted anything on this thread until today since April 27th, yet complaints about NEVMS, Outfield Mktg, and Festiva continue to be posted by many who do own there. I had left the thread to owners and read often while not contributing since my main contribution was warnings about what would happen. The owners are now dealing with what has happened and what is continuing to happen. On TUG one does not have to be an owner to particpate in discussions about a resort, I have just chosen not to join in for a while.  BTW, after not posting here for over 2 months I would have expected a nicer welcome back from you Cliff. I guess we aren't tight anymore.

I said it could be your post, it could be Festiva's, it could be NEVMS's post,it could be an Outfield post, it could be capegitarguy's post, it could be an actual owner's first time post, we will never know for sure. As far as pointing out the fact that a first timers post is so slanted towards the NEVMS position of not wanting to let owners collaberate by getting each other's addresses, I had to point out the obvious. Boy did I hit a nerve. You are usually so calm and reserved in your responses. 

For someone to finish their inaugural post with the statement" managment take note", geez, give me a break. It sure is nice for you to be able to say see why we won't give out owner's information and then be able to reference that post by an anonymous guest who has made a total of one posts ever here on TUG. That is awfully convenient for you. In 153 posts on this thread no one else has ever said that they didn't want management to give other owners their information, but this poster has somehow found several owners who feels the same way. Where did he find the other owners? No one is suposed to be able to get personal information from mgt, so it would be nice to know how this poster contacted the other owners that feel the same way. It obviously wasn't on this thread. Only Outfield Mktg seems to be able to access the owner's personal information, and that is purely for the financial benefit of Outfield/Festiva/NEVMS, not for the benefit of the owners. 


If someone here believes that a first time poster felt compelled to post this on TUG to prevent MGT from releasing their personal info (rather than just calling the resort), and if you believe that they have also discussed it with other owners who feel the same way, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you and some valuable Festiva points to swap for your worthless summer weeks. 

It is good to talk to you again Cliff. I am very surprised at how sensitive you are about a post made by someone you don't know. Maybe you are starting to become a defender of the little guy. That would be good news for all of those who were tricked into surrendering the good weeks they owned for points that are almost worthless. Now there is something for you to get indignant about.


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## JackB62

*And the lies continue...*

I have a piece of paper that says, "Not involved with Festiva or Outfield."

The paper is signed by Cliff Hagberg.

And yet, "anyone can look it up," in Cliff's response to the Outfield and NEVS business relationship.

Nice transparency, Cliff.


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## JackB62

From Cliff's Southcape post #407:

1. It is not inappropriate for me to be in business with Outfield in any way.

2. Outfield is bringing owners up to date on what's happening at the resort and offering owners an additional vacation exchange opportunity by joining Festiva Adventure Club.

3. Tom Franks and Steve Lamantia have interests in Outfield. I do not.

4. Festiva has no relationship with anyone other than that Outfield is an agent for Festiva resorts. *Outfield and I own NEVS.* Franks, Lamantia and I are trustees at Southcape.


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## NEVMSLLC

Hi Jack

How many times do I have to tell you.  I have no ownership or interest in either Festiva or Outfield.  You and I have written and spoken personally and you still refuse to believe anything I tell you.  I can't help that.


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## tombo

JackB62 said:


> From Cliff's Southcape post #407:
> 
> 1. It is not inappropriate for me to be in business with Outfield in any way.
> 
> 2. Outfield is bringing owners up to date on what's happening at the resort and offering owners an additional vacation exchange opportunity by joining Festiva Adventure Club.
> 
> 3. Tom Franks and Steve Lamantia have interests in Outfield. I do not.
> 
> 4. Festiva has no relationship with anyone other than that Outfield is an agent for Festiva resorts. *Outfield and I own NEVS.* Franks, Lamantia and I are trustees at Southcape.




IMO you thrive on semantics and half truths. You say you have no ownership. You do however do business with and profit from Outfield/Festiva in some way. How can that relationship be construed by you to mean that "you are not involved"?

 If you and Outfield JOINTLY own NEVS (which is what you stated in your own post), then you are doing business with Outfield (something you admit is inappropriate). You and Outfield are BUSINESS PARTNERS in NEVS! You are also trustees with the Outfield owners doing all sorts of business together upgrading, renovating,hiring contractors, increasing MF's, and assessing. It is so disengenuous for you to try and say that you have no business connection to Outfield when you and Outfield are joint owners of NEVS and when you are the one who chose Outfiled to market Festiva at this resort. Choosing them to market your weeks is a BUSINESS relationship and I am sure that there is a signed contract between you/NEVS and Outfield/Festiva. I am sure there was something in it for you BUSINESS wise or else you would not have allowed Outfield/Festiva to market at this resort. You normally market yourself and make a lot of money while saving the resort from bankruptcy (singlehandedly) as you have claimed here numerous times. If you have given up the marketing rights and income to Outfield/Festiva, you are being rewarded in some way. You are too smart of a businessman to have just handed them the marketing rights while getting nothing in return.


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## JackB62

*I don't care whether you have ownership interests or not*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Jack
> 
> How many times do I have to tell you.  I have no ownership or interest in either Festiva or Outfield.  You and I have written and spoken personally and you still refuse to believe anything I tell you.  I can't help that.



In my opinion. the Festiva, Outfield, NEVS relationship is the devil's triumvirate for hurting individual interval owners.


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## NEVMSLLC

Since neither of you are even an owner at Sandcastle, why should I even bother to respond to either of you?


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## Fig

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Jack
> 
> How many times do I have to tell you.  I have no ownership or interest in either Festiva or Outfield.  You and I have written and spoken personally and you still refuse to believe anything I tell you.  I can't help that.



Public documents contradict this claim. A $2.5 million dollar loan by NEVS puts Cliff and Outfield as interested parties in paying off a mortgage on Sandcastle and Southcape. Loan payments aren't going to wait until the real estate markets picks up and Cliff can resell the "unsold inventory."

Unfortunatley, for owners at Southcape and Sandcastle, the quickest way for NEVS to repay the loan is to sell points which are nearly worthless to anyone but the people who sell them at $3000 a pop.  It's hard to sell points...just look at the Wyndham points for resale on ebay....the harder it is to sell, the harder the sell. 

This is the second time Cliff has acted with supposed outrage on this board that Outfield Marketing is making outrageous claims...this good cop/bad cop thing is nothing new. Festiva tried to use it to defend itself against a case with the AG in MO, trying to claim that the reps it was employing where third party. Well, let's just see who those reps were? Here's one who was visiting people's homes in MO just before the AG slapped Festiva with a fine. Hmmm...he works for Outfield Marketing!

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html

Oh, and his name is Steve Lamantia. Look at the claims Steve is making from this post. Sound familiar? Where is Steve today? Cliff saw fit to found a company with this guy from Outfield Marketing and serve with him as trustee and take out a $2.5 million dollar loan against units at your resort. No interest, indeed.


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## NEVMSLLC

Ah, Mr. Fig!! Another interloper who doesn't own at the resort!


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## Fig

NEVMSLLC said:


> Ah, Mr. Fig!! Another interloper who doesn't own at the resort!




For the record, Cliff, I was interested in buying at Sandcastle. A July 4th week, non-the-less. When I called the resort, I got a recorded message about Outfield Marketing. I did some research on Outfield and that led me to Festiva. Not a good investment, I concluded with you and Steve and Tom having taken out a $2.5 million dollar mortgage at the top of the real estate bubble.

You see Cliff, I didn't want to be upgrading your investment while you and your friends paid no assessments on the units you wanted to resell. Futhermore, I didn't want to be subjected to the hard sell of Outfield Marketing...whoever they may be. I didn't want you giving my name to some Outfield sales rep who had no interest in the resort. Steve and Tom, your fellow trustees seem to have a problem with their marketing techniques not only with people who have posted here, but with state and federal governments as well...in MO just before the AG slapped Festiva with a fine for their sales claims Steve was making the same kinds of claims that you seem shocked and dismayed at with Sandcastle folks. Tom Franks, the president of Outfield has been cited by no less than the FCC for his marketing escapades. 

http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2002/EB-02-TC-256.pdf

Maybe you can explain how you and Tom and Steve managed to get a $2.5 million dollar loan? Did you use the building at 135 E Hickory, Outfield's TX headquarters, as collateral which is worth a whole $1,450 dollars? 

http://www.dentoncad.com/index.php?...tive=on&Year=2009&MinVal=0&MaxVal=&Results=10

Or were you forced to go to Festiva who seems to have the deepest pockets of the three of you to help with the loan and would explain why Festiva points are being pushed so hard?

In the days of the internet, it's kinda hard to run from facts. Interloper?...I always have felt welcomed here


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## NEVMSLLC

So you're agreeing with me that you're not an owner!  Perhaps we should start a new group for people who want to complain about resorts at which they don't own?  Perhaps we could call it Figertom . . . 

It would sort of be like me complaining about RCI if I weren't a member and had never tried to make an exchange.  Boy, I'd have a lot of credibility if I did that, wouldn't I . . .


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## Fig

NEVMSLLC said:


> So you're agreeing with me that you're not an owner!  Perhaps we should start a new group for people who want to complain about resorts at which they don't own?  Perhaps we could call it Figertom . . .
> 
> It would sort of be like me complaining about RCI if I weren't a member and had never tried to make an exchange.  Boy, I'd have a lot of credibility if I did that, wouldn't I . . .



Nah, you got your hands full dealing with owners who have issues with all the fun you, Outfield and Festiva are causing. And, I am not complaining...just dealing in facts, Cliff, as a number of people here do...citing public documents, governement filings, posts that have been made by you before you have pressured Tug Board members to have them erased.

You might want to try to be a little factual rather than making silly statements like you have no interest in Outfield Marketing when your investment is directly tied to the outcome of their high pressure selling if it is credibility you are seeking...just a thought.


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## NEVMSLLC

Thanks Fig

I'll say it one last time and hopefully you'll be able to get it.

I do not now, nor have I ever had an ownership interest in Outfield or Festiva.  That's a factual statement. 

How much clearer can I get?

FYI, we have had very few complaints from owners about either Festiva or Outfield.  That's a factual statement.  I know, I'm here every day.

Cliff


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## ginnyB60

tombo said:


> For the many new posters here on TUG, this is probably a NEVS post and possibly even Cliff himself. This "guest" has a total of one posts. To find this thread that has been running for months, read it, and as an owner feel that the only input you need to give is to tell Mgt that they would be upset if their information was passed to anyone including owners is ridiculous. Everyone see this for what it is. This is probably a shill post IMO. NEVS and/or Outfield and/or Festiva must be very nervous if they have resorted to posting fake posts like this. It looks like someone got someone's attention.




As a new visitor to this site I take great exception to the fact that you have taken it upon yourself to deride my opinion purely because it does not fall in line with your own. I thought the purpose of this site was to ask questions and offer opinions - our own - not only yours - and just because you do not agree with my position does not make it any less valid than your own.

As things stand at present I have no problems with the resort, or the management.   Only with your behavior.


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## Rambler65

Cliff-

I AM an owner at Sandcastle, and was out there last week.  I along with most of the others there last week was outraged at the amount of out and out lies that where hurled our way by Outfield reps.  My meeting lasted about 15 minutes before I walked out, and I honestly can't think of one thing that I was told by the reps that was truthful.  Everything from the purchase price for the Sandcastle (6 Million) to the threats for huge assessments (would be waiting for me when I got home) if I didn't buy points, to the resort being dropped by RCI were all lies.  Heck even the sign over the door (Ownership Services) is a lie.

Consider this a formal complaint *to you* from a Sandcastle owner about Outfield Marketing.

I invite all other who ARE owners at Sandcastle, and are not happy with how they were treated by Outfiled Marketing to please file a complaint here so Cliff can see just how many upset owners are out there.


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## Rambler65

ginnyB60 said:


> As a new visitor to this site I take great exception to the fact that you have taken it upon yourself to deride my opinion purely because it does not fall in line with your own. I thought the purpose of this site was to ask questions and offer opinions - our own - not only yours - and just because you do not agree with my position does not make it any less valid than your own.
> 
> As things stand at present I have no problems with the resort, or the management.   Only with your behavior.



Ginny-

How is it you don't have a problem with your name and number being given to Outfield Marketing so they could repeatedly interrupt your dinner trying to sell points, but you would have a problem with concerned owners obtaining the same list?  Just curious?

Personally I had no problem adding my information to the owners list being compiled, but was getting really upset with the repeated calls from Outfield Marketing this spring.


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## NEVMSLLC

Thank you, Rambler!

I too heard about a complaint about sales last week and I will tell you what happened.  There was a new sales rep who started the previous Saturday.  On Tuesday, I received a complaint from an owner who had just received a presentation.  I drove to the Sandcastle and met with the owner to hear what had happened.  I then looked at the rep's appointment schedule to find someone else he had spoken with.  I contacted that owner (who hadn't complained) and spoke with them about what happened.

When I heard the same story from both owners, I contacted Outfield Marketing and explained the situation to them on Wednesday.  Outfield sent a memo to the sales staff explaining that, if there were further complaints, the sales rep would be terminated.  On Thursday, I was concerned enough to discuss the situation at length with Outfield and on Friday the sales rep was terminated and is no longer associated with the Sandcastle.

On Monday of this week, Outfield sent a senior manager to the resort to retrain the sales reps and to remain on site for the rest of the summer to assure me that no more problems like this would develop.  That retraining is going on as I write this.

I have to take a minute to speak about complaints.  Every week, I get complaints about front desk staff, maintenance people, office people, even the maid staff.  When I can verify that a complaint is legitimate, immediate action is taken no matter who is involved.

Owners and even non-owners who post on TUG have to understand that I can't deal with problems I don't know about.  Nor can I deal with problems where owners won't discuss it with me.  I had an owner last week demanding that I fire a woman who worked the front desk because the owner claimed that she was rude and abusive.  Upon investigation, I was informed by another owner that it was the first owner who was screaming and swearing in the lobby.  Our front desk staff refused to deal with her anymore unless she calmed down and stopped swearing at them.  The owner then got my number, called me and wanted at least one person fired.

Not all complaints are legitimate but all are investigated and action taken where appropriate.  Thanks again for bringing this to my attention.  I will keep an eye on things to make sure that what you experienced doesn't happen again.  You have my sincere apologies.

Cliff


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## Fig

NEVMSLLC said:


> Thank you, Rambler!
> 
> When I heard the same story from both owners, I contacted Outfield Marketing and explained the situation to them on Wednesday.  Outfield sent a memo to the sales staff explaining that, if there were further complaints, the sales rep would be terminated.  On Thursday, I was concerned enough to discuss the situation at length with Outfield and on Friday the sales rep was terminated and is no longer associated with the Sandcastle.
> 
> On Monday of this week, Outfield sent a senior manager to the resort to retrain the sales reps and to remain on site for the rest of the summer to assure me that no more problems like this would develop.  That retraining is going on as I write this.
> Cliff



For those of you trying to sort through the veracity of Cliff's post, I offer the following:

Where are these memos, training and senior managers emanating from? Some corporate tower in TX? You want to see the office? Here is 135 Hickory Street, Denton, TX. Hit the "A," hit the button called "street view" to scroll to the left and that little white tool shed valued at $1,450 with the little white truck out front is what Outfield Marketing claims as its sales office. 


http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=UTF-...&split=1&gl=us&cid=3790481915987078867&li=lmd

Now who might Cliff be calling at this shed who is quickly drafting memos and sending out senior management? 

Can't be the President, Tom Franks, he works as a real estate agent in VA.

Cliff seems to be positing that there was a poorly trained rep that was all to blame...plausible, except for the fact that this appears to be the ONLY way these reps are trained. Here is Cliff responding to similar claims at Southcape in April...


http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=704153#post704153

July and as Yogi Berra might say, it's deja vu all over again.


And, as noted in my post above, Steve Lamantia, your trustee was thrown out of a house in MO for making claims that Cliff appears to be shocked, just shocked over now. 

You know, you think I might be able to find a post, just a little tidbit where Outfield Marketing got even a passing review...all I find is outrage. This resort in NC felt the need to post on its homepage that Outfield Marketing was lying to its membership.

"some of our owners have been approached while visiting other resorts or at home by members of the sales staff of Outfield Marketing who have made some false statements about Peppertree Maggie Valley during the sales presentation. Two of the statements being made are that “Peppertree Maggie Valley is not in good financial condition” and that “Peppertree Maggie Valley is going to go out of business” if the owners do not convert their week to the Festiva Adventure Club. These statements simply are not true."

http://www.peppertreemv.com/owner.htm


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Gee Fig, you've got it wrong again.  I've been to Outfield's offices and that ain't it!!

Second mistake - Tom Franks does not work as a real estate agent in virginia or anywhere else.

As for my response, you've verified exactly what I've been saying that, when I hear of a problem, I make certain it gets fixed.  Thanks for helping me out here.


----------



## Fig

NEVMSLLC said:


> Gee Fig, you've got it wrong again.  I've been to Outfield's offices and that ain't it!!
> 
> Second mistake - Tom Franks does not work as a real estate agent in virginia or anywhere else.
> 
> As for my response, you've verified exactly what I've been saying that, when I hear of a problem, I make certain it gets fixed.  Thanks for helping me out here.



Hey, it's the registered legal address for your outfield trustees cut and pasted from your own public statement with the Secretary of the Commonwealth:

DIRECTOR       STEVEN 
LAMANTIA                135 HICKORY RD.
DENTON, TX 76201 USA  


DIRECTOR       MARK MONROE  135 HICKDRY RD.
DENTON, TX 76201 USA  ( I assume you meant St, since there is no road and it is divided into an East West)

Here's the deed for the office...not to underscore the obvious, but it does say sales office:

http://www.dentoncad.com/index.php?...tive=on&Year=2009&MinVal=0&MaxVal=&Results=10

So your own legal documents...any web serch and the deed for the property all say the sales office is that building in TX...introduce another address and we'll consider it...until then, the record stands.

As for Tom...please find it in your heart to forgive me....I put him in VA, should have been MD. As your own legal document says:


DIRECTOR  	THOMAS FRANKS   	  3058 NEMON RD
ANNAPOLIS, MD 21403 USA 

Trouble is, there appears to be no Nemon Rd in Annapolis.

However, there is a Thomas C. Franks in the exact same city who IS a real estate agent with the exact same spelling of his name including the middle intitial...imagine?

http://www.incredibleagents.com/rea...ealty-07-Main-St/1921067/Thomas-C-Franks.html

No harm done...I seem to have associated him with an "incredible" agent...you too Cliff, are pretty darned incredible from what I am reading.

Happy to be of service!


----------



## JackB62

*Hide behind a fake name?*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Hey Tombo, my favorite conspiracy theorist!!  Isn't it kind of you to attack a newbie's first post. Particularly from you who's posted almost 1,500 times on everything under the sun here on Tug. (check him out for yourselves, folks) I've noticed you only attack people who might not agree with you.  What's the matter, don't you believe in free and open dialogue? Or would you rather keep trying to intimidate people who know more than you do?   I think it's obvious to everyone on here that you're nothing more than some guy with nothing else to do than to try and create problems where none exist.  Goodness, gracious, Tombo, you don't even own at the resort and as near as I can tell, you've never even been there.  And yet, you have opinion after opinion without any actual knowledge.  Hey, here's a thought.  How about actually visiting a resort and finding out what's going on before you shoot your mouth off?
> 
> Cliff
> 
> P. S.  I promise you I don't need anyone to speak for me.  I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself and I have no need to hide behind a fake name, either.



Like you hide behind, "if it's a legal issue, I won't answer it." Because you are that close to the edge?


----------



## london

*Owners Being Coerced*



Sou13 said:


> So I was right about one thing, that Festiva has contracted with Outfield Marketing to *coerce* us into converting to Festiva points!



It appears the owners have the option to decline any offer to convert to points.

When the rep calls, they can just say no to an appointment. Or for that matter just hang up.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

I don't respond to legal issues because I'm not an attorney.  What could be simpler than that.  I see people offering legal opinions on here all the time and opening themselves up for all kinds of legal problems.  I'm not going to to that.

London, you're absolutely correct.  All they have to do is say no and that's that.  Thousands of owners have been contacted and a handful claim to have had a problem.

I have a problem right now with Sears.  Hey Tombo, Fig, et al, want to help me with that?  Maybe we should report them to the attorney general or organize a boycott and disrupt their entire business.  What do you think?  Ever thought of just saying no?


----------



## tombo

Isn't the internet great? Not only can you debunk lies with simple incontrovertable evidence, you can also pull up old posts and revisit statements that people say they never made. I wish that Outfield (and all timeshare salesmen) had to try to sell their points by giving their presentation on line. When they later tried to lie and say that they never said that non points owners were going to have a big assesment (etc,etc,etc), all you would have to do is say sure you did, here it is in post number 43. 

Why doesn't every owner here who gets a phone call inviting them to the update meeting go and lay a tape recorder on the desk. If the sales rep asks what it is for simply say that in case you do decide to buy that you wanted to make sure that you got EVERYTHING that was promised to you in the sales presentation. I would love to see the look on the salesman's face when you hit record and say go ahead and explain Festiva and it's advantages to me. :rofl:


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> I don't respond to legal issues because I'm not an attorney.  What could be simpler than that.  I see people offering legal opinions on here all the time and opening themselves up for all kinds of legal problems.  I'm not going to to that.
> 
> London, you're absolutely correct.  All they have to do is say no and that's that.  Thousands of owners have been contacted and a handful claim to have had a problem.
> 
> I have a problem right now with Sears.  Hey Tombo, Fig, et al, want to help me with that?  Maybe we should report them to the attorney general or organize a boycott and disrupt their entire business.  What do you think?  Ever thought of just saying no?



With Sears there is no problem. The Sears motto is "Satisfaction Guaranteed". If you have exceeded the 30 to 90 day window you might have a problem, but 30 days to 90 days to change your mind beats a 10 day recission period with timeshares.

  Here is their warranty: http://www.warrantyweek.com/library/ww20021223/sears-satisfaction.html

If you keep asking for someone with more authority you will eventually get someone who will satisfy you. I worked in Sears in High School and if people complained that they weren't satisfied loud enough and long enough we gave them their money back or another item free. I have refunded 100% of the prchase price on shoes with holes in the sole because the cuatomer was not satisfied with how long they lasted. I gave a new boat motor to a guy who ran it in salt water until it was corroded because he got the store manager and kept saying I don't care if it is out of warranty, I am not satisfied and it says on your wall satisfaction guaranteed or your money back. I even had to give a man a free 3 pack of underwear because the dirty ones he brought in with holes in them wore out before he thought that they should have and he wasn't satisfied. I used to tell my mangers that they should just tell some of these people no and they said we promise satisfaction and we can't tell a customer that they are satisfied when they aren't.

Your problem is solved. Anything else I can help you with?


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> 4.  While I can't give you a legal opinion, I can tell you that no resort I know of in New England, or anywhere else for that matter, will release the owner's private and confidential information. Management's job is to protect the owners.



Cliff,

Have you offered those concerned owners who have requested the members list, an alternative procedure for communicating with their fellow owners?

Have you solicited a legal opinion from qualified counsel that supports your position that you are not required to conform with applicable state statutes? 

Or an legal opinion that allows you to ignore the by-laws of the association?


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> FYI, we have had very *few complaints* from owners about either Festiva or Outfield.  That's a factual statement.  I know, I'm here every day.
> 
> Cliff



Obviously this statement runs counter to the complaints that have surfaced here. When you say "few complaints" do you mean on a numeric or percentage basis? Can you quantify your answer?

More than a few complaints have been made here. Are those included in your count?


----------



## ecwinch

ginnyB60 said:


> Please be aware that as an owner at Sandcastle I would be extremely upset if the management were to pass my personal information on to any third party, including other owners, outside businesses, etc.
> 
> I have discussed this with several other owners and they feel the same way.
> 
> Management take note.




When you purchased at Sandcastle, you agreed to adhere to the by-laws of the association. The by-laws allow your member information to be shared with other members. 

Without this provision, owners have no means for communicating with each other on ownership issues.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Thank you, Rambler!
> 
> I too heard about a complaint about sales last week and I will tell you what happened.  There was a new sales rep who started the previous Saturday.  On Tuesday, I received a complaint from an owner who had just received a presentation.  I drove to the Sandcastle and met with the owner to hear what had happened.  I then looked at the rep's appointment schedule to find someone else he had spoken with.  I contacted that owner (who hadn't complained) and spoke with them about what happened.
> 
> When I heard the same story from both owners, I contacted Outfield Marketing and explained the situation to them on Wednesday.  Outfield sent a memo to the sales staff explaining that, if there were further complaints, the sales rep would be terminated.  On Thursday, I was concerned enough to discuss the situation at length with Outfield and on Friday the sales rep was terminated and is no longer associated with the Sandcastle.
> 
> On Monday of this week, Outfield sent a senior manager to the resort to retrain the sales reps and to remain on site for the rest of the summer to assure me that no more problems like this would develop.  That retraining is going on as I write this.
> 
> I have to take a minute to speak about complaints.  Every week, I get complaints about front desk staff, maintenance people, office people, even the maid staff.  When I can verify that a complaint is legitimate, immediate action is taken no matter who is involved.
> 
> Owners and even non-owners who post on TUG have to understand that I can't deal with problems I don't know about.  Nor can I deal with problems where owners won't discuss it with me.  I had an owner last week demanding that I fire a woman who worked the front desk because the owner claimed that she was rude and abusive.  Upon investigation, I was informed by another owner that it was the first owner who was screaming and swearing in the lobby.  Our front desk staff refused to deal with her anymore unless she calmed down and stopped swearing at them.  The owner then got my number, called me and wanted at least one person fired.
> 
> Not all complaints are legitimate but all are investigated and action taken where appropriate.  Thanks again for bringing this to my attention.  I will keep an eye on things to make sure that what you experienced doesn't happen again.  You have my sincere apologies.
> 
> Cliff



Cliff,

This is the second time that you have outlined a similar situation with Outfield, with a very similar outcome (ie. terminated sales rep). At what point do you recognize the systematic nature of the problem? 

If this happens a third, or fourth, or fifth time?


----------



## mweinberg

tombo said:


> Why doesn't every owner here who gets a phone call inviting them to the update meeting go and lay a tape recorder on the desk. If the sales rep asks what it is for simply say that in case you do decide to buy that you wanted to make sure that you got EVERYTHING that was promised to you in the sales presentation. I would love to see the look on the salesman's face when you hit record and say go ahead and explain Festiva and it's advantages to me. :rofl:



A tape recording might be great for making a complaint, but it probably won't change anything.  I've been told that paragraph 18 of the sales contract says, "Seller and Purchaser agree that this Agreement . . . embodies the entire agreement . . . and replaces any and all prior negotiations, representations, agreements, and understandings, both oral and written."


----------



## tombo

mweinberg said:


> A tape recording might be great for making a complaint, but it probably won't change anything.  I've been told that paragraph 18 of the sales contract says, "Seller and Purchaser agree that this Agreement . . . embodies the entire agreement . . . and replaces any and all prior negotiations, representations, agreements, and understandings, both oral and written."



It might not help with regards to actually purchasing WHICH YOU SHOULD NOT DO. DO NOT GIVE UP A GOOD WEEK FOR WORTHLESS POINTS! Just listen and record, don't buy. 

What it will do is get proof to give to the AG to use in the current complaints or it might be exactly what the AG needs to go ahead and file suit. Get a couple of those tapes and Outfield can no longer claim that they aren't using fraudulant promises and threats of loss of use and increased assessments if you don't convert to try and sell weeks. 

If anyone can check on the laws in your state, some states allow you to tape any conversation without informing the other party as long as you are a part of the conversation. If that is true where the sales presentation takes place (in your home or at the resort) then you can tape away and never have to tell the sales rep that you are taping. A couple of those tapes where the salesman uses lies and threats to try and sell points conversions would probably be all the AG would need to take action. Cheap micro-mini recorders are available at Radio Shack.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Tombo, MA requires both parties to agree to a taping, otherwise it's a crime.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

ecwinch said:


> Cliff,
> 
> Have you offered those concerned owners who have requested the members list, an alternative procedure for communicating with their fellow owners?
> 
> Have you solicited a legal opinion from qualified counsel that supports your position that you are not required to conform with applicable state statutes?
> 
> Or an legal opinion that allows you to ignore the by-laws of the association?



No

Yes

Yes


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Outfield has met with thousands (literally) of owners.  We have had a handful of complaints and those complaints have been addressed.  I'll let you analyze it.  Thousands of contacts and a handful of complaints.

I'm not diminishing the importance of the complaints at all. I take them very seriously.  I haven't seen a sales program yet in any industry that didn't generate complaints.  It's how the company responds to complaints that's very important and Outfield's track record on this is excellent.

Most of the complaints on here are from people I've never heard of.  My question is why didn't they contact Outfield or the resort to let us know of the problem so that we could do something about it??  How would you suggest I handle a complaint I don't know anything about?

Finally, everyone (including NEVS) wants NEVS out of there.  The only way for that to happen is for NEVS to sell it's inventory.  How is NEVS going to do with without a sales program?

For the past twenty years, the former developer made very little effort to sell their inventory and they retained complete control of the resort.  That's why there was no budget, the resort went further and further into debt every year, the maintenance was ignored and owners now face a special assessment to fix work that should have been done years ago.  No reserve account.

We come in to fix those things, put the resort on solid financial footing, go after the delinquent owners who aren't paying their fair share, sell the inventory, make critical repairs to the resort and we're the bad guys???  I frankly don't get it.  Why isn't everyone angry at the former developers who put the resort into this situation to begin with?

I talk with lots of owners every day.  Almost all of them are pleased with what's happening and they understand the need for what's happening.  Of course there are some who will not be satisfied no matter what.  There are others who refuse to listen.  I've been told here on TUG that there is a small group of owners who've said that they're not going to believe anything I say.  Again, it begs the question of why I should say anything.  Most of the complaints on here are from people like you, Eric, who aren't even owners!!!

Look at the number of people complaining on here and then look at the fact that we have thousands and thousands of owners who aren't complaining.  I know you'll draw your own conclusions from that and I can't wait to see what those conclusions are.  I know what most of the owners are thinking.


----------



## ginnyB60

ecwinch said:


> When you purchased at Sandcastle, you agreed to adhere to the by-laws of the association. The by-laws allow your member information to be shared with other members.
> 
> Without this provision, owners have no means for communicating with each other on ownership issues.



The problem I have with my information being shared is that, whilst I am sure most of the owners are decent people (although over the years I have come across a few who were doubtful), I do not agree with my personal information being handed over to hundreds - and potentially thousands - of strangers.  Who knows what some of them might do with the information?  

Besides which, someone could get a lot of money selling a list of this nature.


----------



## mweinberg

ginnyB60 said:


> The problem I have with my information being shared is that, whilst I am sure most of the owners are decent people (although over the years I have come across a few who were doubtful), I do not agree with my personal information being handed over to hundreds - and potentially thousands - of strangers.  Who knows what some of them might do with the information?
> 
> Besides which, someone could get a lot of money selling a list of this nature.



Then you might want to share these concerns with someone in the Massachusetts State Legislature and encourage them to change the law.  As of now, the law is very specific in giving owners a right to the owners' list, probably because it is the only way owners can interact with other owners except for the ones they share a week with.


----------



## Fig

"Finally, everyone (including NEVS) wants NEVS out of there. The only way for that to happen is for NEVS to sell it's inventory. How is NEVS going to do with without a sales program?"

Fine sell your weeks that you and Outfield took a 2.5 million mortgage out on for a about $3,000 per unit off-season that aren't even selling for $1 on ebay right now. You are all such professionals you should be able to sell them to new and unsuspecting people for $18,000 or more and get your money.

Selling inventory is not what this game is about.

Nah, you need a points program to con retirees into giving up their deeds at $3000 a pop...that's where the real money is made. Oh, and by the way, you don't classify that as a "sale" do you? No, that's an upgrade. Cliff, you are too funny.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

OK, Fig, you've now convinced me that you know absolutely nothing about the business . . .


----------



## mweinberg

NEVMSLLC said:


> Outfield has met with thousands (literally) of owners.  We have had a handful of complaints and those complaints have been addressed.  I'll let you analyze it.  Thousands of contacts and a handful of complaints.
> 
> I'm not diminishing the importance of the complaints at all. I take them very seriously.  I haven't seen a sales program yet in any industry that didn't generate complaints.  It's how the company responds to complaints that's very important and Outfield's track record on this is excellent.
> 
> Most of the complaints on here are from people I've never heard of.  My question is why didn't they contact Outfield or the resort to let us know of the problem so that we could do something about it??  How would you suggest I handle a complaint I don't know anything about?
> 
> Finally, everyone (including NEVS) wants NEVS out of there.  The only way for that to happen is for NEVS to sell it's inventory.  How is NEVS going to do with without a sales program?
> 
> For the past twenty years, the former developer made very little effort to sell their inventory and they retained complete control of the resort.  That's why there was no budget, the resort went further and further into debt every year, the maintenance was ignored and owners now face a special assessment to fix work that should have been done years ago.  No reserve account.
> 
> We come in to fix those things, put the resort on solid financial footing, go after the delinquent owners who aren't paying their fair share, sell the inventory, make critical repairs to the resort and we're the bad guys???  I frankly don't get it.  Why isn't everyone angry at the former developers who put the resort into this situation to begin with?
> 
> I talk with lots of owners every day.  Almost all of them are pleased with what's happening and they understand the need for what's happening.  Of course there are some who will not be satisfied no matter what.  There are others who refuse to listen.  I've been told here on TUG that there is a small group of owners who've said that they're not going to believe anything I say.  Again, it begs the question of why I should say anything.  Most of the complaints on here are from people like you, Eric, who aren't even owners!!!
> 
> Look at the number of people complaining on here and then look at the fact that we have thousands and thousands of owners who aren't complaining.  I know you'll draw your own conclusions from that and I can't wait to see what those conclusions are.  I know what most of the owners are thinking.



Cliff,

I told you when we talked last Wednesday that I'm VERY appreciative of the changes and improvement at the Sandcastle, all of which were long overdue.  I love the new furnishings and carpeting in our unit, I love the improvements to the pool, I love the new signage, and I love the start at re-landscaping.  I'm looking forward to seeing what else gets done; however, I worry about the posibility of the resort spending more than owners can afford, especially in the absence of any kind of renovation budget.

I'm not sure, but I'd have to guess the complaints you hear are not about renovations and improvements.  At least for me, my unhappiness stems from your business partners.  The more I learn about Outfield Marketing, the more I distrust them.  You say that most of the people you speak with are pleased with what's going on.  I have to wonder, then, why I haven't spoken to, or heard from, one Sandcastle owner who has told me that they converted to Festiva Points and is absolutely thrilled.  And people who deal with Festiva at other resorts seem to be saying the same thing.  These are the same "non-owners" that you are dissuading from posting here.

You say that you are anxious to turn over control of the Sandcastle, recoup your investment, and get out.  The question is, to whom do you want to turn over this control.  My biggest fear is getting into a situation in which deeded owners are footing the lion's share of the bills while controlling interest of the resort lies in the hands of the trustees who have the Beneficial Use Rights (like voting!) of Festiva members.

As far as why you don't hear more complaints goes, it just might be because Outfield is your business partner.  You don't go to the bear to complain that someone is trying to steal your food.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hi Mweinberg 

As I've said, we have had complaints about Outfield.  You and I discussed your problem with them.  At the time, I told you what I was going to do and I did it.  That salesperson is gone.  The others are receiving additional training to prevent it happening again and a new manager has been brought in to make sure of that.  What else would you have me do?

Relatively few owners have joined Festiva.  I've spoken with dozens of them and they are universally pleased with what Festiva offers.  Festiva isn't for everyone, just as RCI Points are not for everyone.  But for those owners for whom a points program makes sense, Festiva's is a very good one.

Please keep in mind that, when an owner joins Festiva, they are no longer an owner which is why we may not hear from them.  Also, keep in mind that  most of the complaints about Festiva are with the sales process, not the Festiva Adventure Club itself.  Hopefully, after our discussions and the results, you will know that I personally am very vigilant about keeping the sales process honest. 

NEVS did not buy the inventory to control the resort.  NEVS purchased the inventory to sell it.  It's really that simple.  At some point in the future when NEVS sells out (no, I don't know when that point is so don't ask me) control will pass to an elected board of the owners.  To prepare for that day, I am establishing an owner's advisory board to provide input to the board of trustees.  I've asked you to become a member of that board and I would still like to see you as part of it if you have the time.  The advisory board will give us a group of people who will understand the operations completely so when it's time to stand for elections, we'll have a group of experienced people to do that.

Why didn't the former developer and trustees do something like that in the past twenty years?  Why is NEVS getting slammed for doing that now?  Most of the owners I talk with are pleased at what's going on.  I constantly hear from owners that it's about time someone fixed the resort, someone sold the inventory, someone went after the delinquent owners, etc.  This resort has been ignored by the former trustees for twenty years.  Now we're taking steps to make Sandcastle the best resort it can be and we're taking all the abuse.  I just don't get it.


----------



## ecwinch

ginnyB60 said:


> The problem I have with my information being shared is that, whilst I am sure most of the owners are decent people (although over the years I have come across a few who were doubtful), I do not agree with my personal information being handed over to hundreds - and potentially thousands - of strangers.  Who knows what some of them might do with the information?
> 
> Besides which, someone could get a lot of money selling a list of this nature.



Then work with Cliff to have the by-laws of your HOA modified, allowing for an alternative communication process that protects your privacy information. Simply denying owners their rights under your by-laws and state statute is not the answer. Defending Cliff while he violates the state statute and the HOA by-laws is not a viable position. If tomorrow some major change occurs at the resort that results in you wanting to communicate with other owners - what do you do then?

Your position would only allow Cliff to communicate with other owners. Effectively allowing him to be the gatekeeper of any and all information that flows to the owners at the resort. This is effectively censorship.

Cliff is not saying "no I will not give you the members list, but here is what I will do...". He has not offered an alternate communication process that meets the intent of the by-laws or the statute.

He is justing violating the association by-laws and state statute. If you allow him to violate this by-law, where do you draw the line?  What's next?


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> No
> 
> Yes
> 
> Yes



Then share that opinion with the members. At least you are obligated to provide an alternative process that allows members to communicate with each other. To complete deny owners their rights, is shameless abuse of power.

You are only relying on the fact that what is at stake is less valuable then what it would cost to fight you. No judge is going to support the opinion you have. I am certain is it a "blushing" defense at best. One only needs to point to the Worldmark case in California as supporting their claim.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Most of the complaints on here are from people like you, Eric, who aren't even owners!!!
> 
> Look at the number of people complaining on here and then look at the fact that we have thousands and thousands of owners who aren't complaining.  I know you'll draw your own conclusions from that and I can't wait to see what those conclusions are.  I know what most of the owners are thinking.



Then set up a private forum for this discussion and only invite owners. If you want to have this discussion in public, then accept that non-owners will challenge some of the propaganda you offer. 

My only complaints have been with your abuse of power. If there is such a small minority of unhappy owners compared to such a large majority of happy owners, then why are you so aggressively working to negate their opinions here?  

Spend you time focusing on continuing to make resort owners happy. You will always have critics - just ignore them.

As you noted, you are not going to change our opinions. We understand what you are trying to do.


----------



## Fig

NEVMSLLC said:


> OK, Fig, you've now convinced me that you know absolutely nothing about the business . . .



Hmm...as usual you dodge the issue and address the poster. The point is Cliff, your salesforce isn't getting into this mess selling inventory...there is no market for inventory right now. They are selling nothing or attempting to sell nothing but points to deeded owners and trying to avoid all references to the word "sale." 

http://www.timeshareownerscommunity.com/timeshare-info/things-to-know/116.html?task=view

And, my point is not to convince you of anything...you need to do the convincing here if you are to turn the mounting tide against you. You can't do it one picnic table conversation at a time...the websites, blogs and complaints against you seem to be growing exponentially.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Just as I said, Fig.  You know nothing about the market or the business.  I had four sales just today at Brewster Green and three at the Ponds at Foxhollow. Good thing I don't listen to you or I would have sent my people home . . .


----------



## Fig

NEVMSLLC said:


> Just as I said, Fig.  You know nothing about the market or the business.  I had four sales just today at Brewster Green and three at the Ponds at Foxhollow. Good thing I don't listen to you or I would have sent my people home . . .



Good for you, Cliff. So these people, they are the Outfield Marketing people... I mean "your people"? That's funny, I thought you had no interest in Outfield Marketing...so now they are employees of your company and selling inventory outside of Sandcastle and Southcape? 

Or maybe you have a salesforce in ADDITION to Outfield Marketing....if so, why is Outfield Marketing needed to sell inventory? You have the salesforce to sell inventory. Goodness, man, you are entertaining

Keep typing, Cliff. I love chatting with you.


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> Tombo, MA requires both parties to agree to a taping, otherwise it's a crime.



I thought that you wouldn't answer any legal questions or give legal opinions or advice. Every time you are asked a question you don't want to answer, that is the reason you give. For some reason you answered this legal question really quickly without even making a disclaimer that you aren't a lawyer. Could it be be that you wouldn't want those Outfield sales presentations taped? Owners would sure like to have copies of a taped presentation if possible.

Perhaps some owners should double check and see whether you can legally record a conversation between yourself and someone else in MA without informing them. I know that Cliff has rendered his legal opinion that it is not legal, but as he often says, he is not a lawyer. Perhaps we need a second opinion on the legality of such taping in MA.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Tombo, you really are funny.  That's not an opinion, that's a fact!

Saying that it's illegal to shoot someone doesn't call for an opinion . . .


----------



## london

*200 Posts*

I have a feeling that this thread is going to reach at least 300 posts.


----------



## tombo

london said:


> I have a feeling that this thread is going to reach at least 300 posts.



Heck the Southscape thread is at 737 and still going strong. This one has a long way to go to reach 700, but it does have potential. 300 should be a sure thing.


----------



## ChrisH

*They are not selling INVENTORY, they are trying to convert owners to POINTS*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Outfield has met with thousands (literally) of owners.  We have had a handful of complaints and those complaints have been addressed.  I'll let you analyze it.  Thousands of contacts and a handful of complaints.
> 
> I'm not diminishing the importance of the complaints at all. I take them very seriously.  I haven't seen a sales program yet in any industry that didn't generate complaints.  It's how the company responds to complaints that's very important and Outfield's track record on this is excellent.
> 
> Most of the complaints on here are from people I've never heard of.  My question is why didn't they contact Outfield or the resort to let us know of the problem so that we could do something about it??  How would you suggest I handle a complaint I don't know anything about?
> 
> Finally, everyone (including NEVS) wants NEVS out of there.  The only way for that to happen is for NEVS to sell it's inventory.  How is NEVS going to do with without a sales program?
> 
> For the past twenty years, the former developer made very little effort to sell their inventory and they retained complete control of the resort.  That's why there was no budget, the resort went further and further into debt every year, the maintenance was ignored and owners now face a special assessment to fix work that should have been done years ago.  No reserve account.
> 
> We come in to fix those things, put the resort on solid financial footing, go after the delinquent owners who aren't paying their fair share, sell the inventory, make critical repairs to the resort and we're the bad guys???  I frankly don't get it.  Why isn't everyone angry at the former developers who put the resort into this situation to begin with?
> 
> I talk with lots of owners every day.  Almost all of them are pleased with what's happening and they understand the need for what's happening.  Of course there are some who will not be satisfied no matter what.  There are others who refuse to listen.  I've been told here on TUG that there is a small group of owners who've said that they're not going to believe anything I say.  Again, it begs the question of why I should say anything.  Most of the complaints on here are from people like you, Eric, who aren't even owners!!!
> 
> Look at the number of people complaining on here and then look at the fact that we have thousands and thousands of owners who aren't complaining.  I know you'll draw your own conclusions from that and I can't wait to see what those conclusions are.  I know what most of the owners are thinking.




Why do you say the Outfield Reps are trying to 'sell the INVENTORY"?  I heard nothing about unsold weeks or inventory, just Greg Hughes using every dirty tactic he could think of to get me to pay you to take away my deeds!  No mention whatsoever of inventory for sale, unsold weeks for sale and the like.  The entire 2 hrs was nothing but 'if you don't convert to Points this will happen and that will happen and more will happen and you'll pay through the nose if you don't convert NOW, right now.  You're going to get a huge bill... "
yadayadayada

ChrisH


----------



## ecwinch

ChrisH said:


> Why do you say the Outfield Reps are trying to 'sell the INVENTORY"?  I heard nothing about unsold weeks or inventory, just Greg Hughes using every dirty tactic he could think of to get me to pay you to take away my deeds!  No mention whatsoever of inventory for sale, unsold weeks for sale and the like.  The entire 2 hrs was nothing but 'if you don't convert to Points this will happen and that will happen and more will happen and you'll pay through the nose if you don't convert NOW, right now.  You're going to get a huge bill... "
> yadayadayada
> 
> ChrisH



Great point! 

Cliff - this is not a legal question, but can you give us a general feeling for how effective Outfield has been in selling existing inventory. In a early post on Tug you offered the opinion that sales of inventory to existing owners was one factor you saw in successful resorts. 

So instead of all the owners reporting efforts to convert their deeded weeks into Festiva, why are we not getting reports of Outfield marketing additional weeks to existing owners?

Is the end game here making sales to existing owners via additional points in the Festiva system? That once they convert their deeded week into pts, they will naturally want to own "additional points". And then that inventory you bought can easily be converted into Festiva points.

So rather than having to deal with having to sell the off-season inventory, you can easily convert them into Festiva points, which in turn can be sold to existing owners. Basically the "ponzi" scheme that others warn us about, basically creating more owners chasing a fixed inventory of desirable weeks. So the conversion to points is essentially a method for increasing the value of your inventory.


----------



## Carolinian

They are sitting on that unsold inventory.  Eventually, their dictatorship will be brought to an end, and they want those votes to add to the ones from the people they are able to scam into converting to points to vote to keep their control of the resort.  These people need to be headed off before it ever gets to that point.  I think there is a real issue of their not paying m/f's on those ''developer'' weeks, especially if they asset that they can vote those weeks.  That issue needs to be gotten into court before any meeting is held where those votes may make a difference. You really need to get some local legal advise on this.  A corporate derivitive suit to force payment of those fees may completely turn the tables.  Talk to a local lawyer.





ChrisH said:


> Why do you say the Outfield Reps are trying to 'sell the INVENTORY"?  I heard nothing about unsold weeks or inventory, just Greg Hughes using every dirty tactic he could think of to get me to pay you to take away my deeds!  No mention whatsoever of inventory for sale, unsold weeks for sale and the like.  The entire 2 hrs was nothing but 'if you don't convert to Points this will happen and that will happen and more will happen and you'll pay through the nose if you don't convert NOW, right now.  You're going to get a huge bill... "
> yadayadayada
> 
> ChrisH


----------



## JackB62

*Cliff admitted at Southcape that he's holding "his" 500 weeks*

I assume the reason is twofold:

1) he has annointed his weeks as being maintenance fee free

2) Festiva needs weeks in their system for point exchange


----------



## Carolinian

JackB62 said:


> I assume the reason is twofold:
> 
> 1) he has annointed his weeks as being maintenance fee free
> 
> 2) Festiva needs weeks in their system for point exchange



You missed the third and most important reason.  Once the dictatorship is forced to have a vote on who runs the resort, he wants to vote those weeks. And he wants to do that in conjunction with the ''trust'' weeks of Festiva to control the resort.  THe owners simply must prevent that from happening.

Voting weeks that he is paying no maintenance fee on is simply outrageous, but you may have to go to court to stop that travesty dead in its tracks.

Indeed, I suspect that if you go to court, you are going to have a decent chance to force NEVS to pay the maintenance fees it rightfully owes on those weeks. That has happened in similar situations other places.

Think about it.  These scoundrels are forcing members to pay special assessments to cover the hole in the budget created by their being deadbeats on the maintenance fees they should be paying on these 500 weeks they own themselves.  This deadbeat management needs in comeupance badly!


----------



## tombo

Carolinian said:


> You missed the third and most important reason.  Once the dictatorship is forced to have a vote on who runs the resort, he wants to vote those weeks. And he wants to do that in conjunction with the ''trust'' weeks of Festiva to control the resort.  THe owners simply must prevent that from happening.
> 
> Voting weeks that he is paying no maintenance fee on is simply outrageous, but you may have to go to court to stop that travesty dead in its tracks.
> 
> Indeed, I suspect that if you go to court, you are going to have a decent chance to force NEVS to pay the maintenance fees it rightfully owes on those weeks. That has happened in similar situations other places.
> 
> Think about it.  These scoundrels are forcing members to pay special assessments to cover the hole in the budget created by their being deadbeats on the maintenance fees they should be paying on these 500 weeks they own themselves.  This deadbeat management needs in comeupance badly!



Carolinian is 100% correct. Someone has to take control, consult an attorney, and raise money for legal fees. If everyone just complains and calls Cliff for help, everyone will remain mad, MF's will continue to increase, and assessments will continue to be levied. As long as you have no vote and they control the resort, you are at their mercy, and showing mercy is not one of their strengths.

I took the reigns at a resort I owned when the board overstepped their boundaries and we hired a lawyer, fought the board, and won our major points. I got all of the owner's names I could online and we each put $500 per week we owned into a legal fund. We tried to get names of all of the owners, but like Cliff, the board refused to give them to us. There was a web site that the resort had set up and once we started e-mailing the few owners who visited the site, the board shut shut the web site down. We ended up with about 25 owners who owned a total of 50 weeks. Our entire legal fund was $25,000 where it could have been at least 10 times that if we could have gotten a list of all the owners. 

Two of the owners in our plaintiff group (myself and another) did 90% of the work needed to fight the board. It was a pain in the butt and we spent a lot of our time and personal expenses fighting them, but it was worth it. The other owner flew down several times at his own expense and I drove down many times on my dime. I didn't want to do it, and neither did the other owner, but if someone didn't do it we would have been assessed huge amounts of money to rebuild a resort that the vast majority of owners didn't want to pay to rebuild (yes there was a vote and the majority of owners who voted didn't want to rebuild, but the board said that it had to be a majority of the total number of owners, not a majority of the owners who mailed in their votes). We had to fight the battle in court, they left us no choice.

Our resort that Katrina had wiped out would have cost each owner per week owned about $4000 to $6000 in assesments (estimated) to rebuild in addition to the money the resort collected from insurance. If we hadn't hired an attorney to fight it we would have been assessed 1000's of dollars to rebuild. I wish we had hired a different lawyer because ours settled with the board on some issues we wanted to continue to fight, but he did stop them from rebuilding. Instead of owing $4000 to $6000 per week to rebuild, we were refunded $2500 per week owned from the insurance proceeds that remained unspent.

SOU13 or someone else at Southscape or Sandcastle has to take the fight personally, mobilize a group of owners, start rounding up money for a retainer, and start finding the right attorney. We tried the contingency hire and no lawyers were interested because their potential payout was not big enough to get them excited. I would do it again if I had too, but it wasn't fun and I am still mad that our attorney settled on some of our complaints without even consulting us. We actually couldn't have afforded to fight for everything we wanted, but we should have been consulted before settling IMO. You need to talk to several lawyers and choose the one who seems like they will fight the hardest for you for a reasonable fee, don't just hire the first attorney you find. 

Do not take this lying down. Mobilize owners, raise money for legal fees, and fight the fight as hard as you can. To do anything less is to lay down and be raped and pillaged by the interlopers who have acquired control of your resort. You can't win if you don't fight!!!


----------



## ChrisH

*Why won't you answer me CLIFF*



JackB62 said:


> I assume the reason is twofold:
> 
> 1) he has annointed his weeks as being maintenance fee free
> 
> 2) Festiva needs weeks in their system for point exchange



Hi Jack

I asked this same question back in May when I returned from that trip to the Sandcastle.  Now that I had my July week, *I am still waiting for CLIFF to answer the following 2 questions.*
Why are the salespeople saying that pretty soon there will be no weeks exchange system?

Why do you state that they're just trying to sell the unsold inventory when no weeks owner I've spoken to who has been to their presentation  has been offered any inventory?

*Come on CLIFF, they aren't hard questions.*

ChrisH


----------



## ecwinch

ChrisH said:


> Hi Jack
> 
> I asked this same question back in May when I returned from that trip to the Sandcastle.  Now that I had my July week, *I am still waiting for CLIFF to answer the following 2 questions.*
> Why are the salespeople saying that pretty soon there will be no weeks exchange system?
> 
> Why do you state that they're just trying to sell the unsold inventory when no weeks owner I've spoken to who has been to their presentation  has been offered any inventory?
> 
> *Come on CLIFF, they aren't hard questions.*
> 
> ChrisH



Or ones of a legal nature....


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> Carolinian is 100% correct. Someone has to take control, consult an attorney, and raise money for legal fees. If everyone just complains and calls Cliff for help, everyone will remain mad, MF's will continue to increase, and assessments will continue to be levied. As long as you have no vote and they control the resort, you are at their mercy, and showing mercy is not one of their strengths.



I agree. You are at the tipping point, and Cliff knows it. His entire model is predicated on the assumption that owners will not want to spend the money required to challenge his actions. Without someone willing to go through those steps, he knows he can do whatever he wants as long as he prevents owners from organizing.

In the absence of a group of owners taking those steps, the second option would be going through the demand letter process and then finding one owner willing to file a pro se or pro per action on the member list issue. The rules in California are a little different, but that is where the Worldmark case eventually ended up.


----------



## ginnyB60

ecwinch said:


> Then work with Cliff to have the by-laws of your HOA modified, allowing for an alternative communication process that protects your privacy information. Simply denying owners their rights under your by-laws and state statute is not the answer. Defending Cliff while he violates the state statute and the HOA by-laws is not a viable position. If tomorrow some major change occurs at the resort that results in you wanting to communicate with other owners - what do you do then?
> 
> Your position would only allow Cliff to communicate with other owners. Effectively allowing him to be the gatekeeper of any and all information that flows to the owners at the resort. This is effectively censorship.
> 
> Cliff is not saying "no I will not give you the members list, but here is what I will do...". He has not offered an alternate communication process that meets the intent of the by-laws or the statute.
> 
> He is justing violating the association by-laws and state statute. If you allow him to violate this by-law, where do you draw the line?  What's next?



There has to be another way.  Whatever the by-laws state I do not want my personal information being handed out to hundreds of strangers.  Perhaps the by-laws were written pre internet and such preliferation of identity theft.

This list would be worth thousands of dollars to anyone who got a hold of it and wanted to sell it.  I've had this happen to me before and it was a nightmare.

I'm not prepared to go through that again.


----------



## mweinberg

ginnyB60 said:


> There has to be another way.  Whatever the by-laws state I do not want my personal information being handed out to hundreds of strangers.  Perhaps the by-laws were written pre internet and such preliferation of identity theft.
> 
> This list would be worth thousands of dollars to anyone who got a hold of it and wanted to sell it.  I've had this happen to me before and it was a nightmare.
> 
> I'm not prepared to go through that again.



I understand your desire to protect your identity.  Real estate records, however, are matters of public record, and absolutely anyone has the right to sit down at the county clerk's office and look at deeds.  The only information that appears on the owners' list is names, addresses, and unit numbers and weeks.  That's hardly enough for identity theft, otherwise telephone books would be much more highly sought after than they are.

I did suggest, by the way, that as a compromise, the trustees could contact everyone on the list and offer them an opportunity to have personal information blacked out before releasing the list, as they are required to do by law.


----------



## Sou13

*They're not selling, they're acquiring more weeks!*

Quote:
Originally Posted by *ChrisH*
_Why do you say the Outfield Reps are trying to 'sell the INVENTORY"?  I heard nothing about unsold weeks or inventory, just Greg Hughes using every dirty tactic he could think of to get me to pay you to take away my deeds!  No mention whatsoever of inventory for sale, unsold weeks for sale and the like.  The entire 2 hrs was nothing but 'if you don't convert to Points this will happen and that will happen and more will happen and you'll pay through the nose if you don't convert NOW, right now.  You're going to get a huge bill... "
yadayadayada

ChrisH_​
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
BARTH (AS ID AS TR &O) ROUTE 6A
Assignment Provincetown
09-04-2008 23138-107

NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
BARTH (AS ID AS TR &O) SEE INSTRUMENT
Deed Provincetown
09-04-2008 23138-109

NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO SEE INSTRUMENT
Mortgage Provincetown
09-04-2008 23138-185

NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
HAMEL, DENNIS R (&O) UNIT 603 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
10-06-2008 23196-250 

NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 409 TIME 9
Partial Discharge Provincetown
03-18-2009 23537-176 

NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 403 TIME 9
Partial Discharge Provincetown
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NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
BRAVERMAN, JACK I (&O) UNIT 132 TIMES 31 32
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
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NEW ENGLAND VACATIONS SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
SPRAGUE, KATHR (AS EX) UNIT 412 TIME 43
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
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NEW ENGLAND VACATIONS SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
MOLINO, GINO A (&O) UNIT 514 TIME 19
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
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NEW ENGLAND VACATIONS SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
SCHNEIDER, BYR (AS EX) UNIT 309 TIME 43
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
11-26-2008 23284-234  

NEW ENGLAND VACATIONS SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
NUTILE, ELEANOR (&O) UNIT 207 TIME 21
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
11-26-2008 23284-235 

NEW ENGLAND VACATIONS SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
TTC HOLDINGS LLC UNIT 2B TIME 31
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
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NEW ENGLAND VACATIONS SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
TEHRANI, MARYAM UNIT 609 TIME 13
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
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NEW ENGLAND VACATIONS SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
FLANAGAN, LENORE D UNIT 229 TIME 36
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
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NEW ENGLAND VACATIONS SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
FLANAGAN, LENORE D UNIT 117 TIME 35
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
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NEW ENGLAND VACATIONS SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
WILLIAMS, RICHARD (&O) UNIT 614 TIME 46
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
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NEW ENGLAND VACATIONS SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
BROWN, PATRICIA K FREN UNIT 106 TIME 21
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
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*The last matching name is displayed*


----------



## Fig

Some information on Cliff from another board I thought I'd pass along.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=757527&postcount=787


----------



## Carolinian

What you have pure and simple is a takeover bid.  Owners have to slay this monster (and I mean the takeover bid, not any perosn) while there is still time.  And you are probably going to have to go to court to keep the bad guys from trying to vote weeks they are not paying m/f's on.

If you don't act reasonably soon to stop it, they will get enough weeks that you will not be able to stop it.


----------



## ChrisH

*TO NEVMS LLC Who is the Sr OM Mgr - in case we wish to speak directly to him/her*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Thank you, Rambler!
> 
> I too heard about a complaint about sales last week and I will tell you what happened.  There was a new sales rep who started the previous Saturday.  On Tuesday, I received a complaint from an owner who had just received a presentation.  I drove to the Sandcastle and met with the owner to hear what had happened.  I then looked at the rep's appointment schedule to find someone else he had spoken with.  I contacted that owner (who hadn't complained) and spoke with them about what happened.
> 
> When I heard the same story from both owners, I contacted Outfield Marketing and explained the situation to them on Wednesday.  Outfield sent a memo to the sales staff explaining that, if there were further complaints, the sales rep would be terminated.  On Thursday, I was concerned enough to discuss the situation at length with Outfield and on Friday the sales rep was terminated and is no longer associated with the Sandcastle.
> 
> On Monday of this week, Outfield sent a senior manager to the resort to retrain the sales reps and to remain on site for the rest of the summer to assure me that no more problems like this would develop.  That retraining is going on as I write this.
> 
> I have to take a minute to speak about complaints.  Every week, I get complaints about front desk staff, maintenance people, office people, even the maid staff.  When I can verify that a complaint is legitimate, immediate action is taken no matter who is involved.
> 
> Owners and even non-owners who post on TUG have to understand that I can't deal with problems I don't know about.  Nor can I deal with problems where owners won't discuss it with me.  I had an owner last week demanding that I fire a woman who worked the front desk because the owner claimed that she was rude and abusive.  Upon investigation, I was informed by another owner that it was the first owner who was screaming and swearing in the lobby.  Our front desk staff refused to deal with her anymore unless she calmed down and stopped swearing at them.  The owner then got my number, called me and wanted at least one person fired.
> 
> Not all complaints are legitimate but all are investigated and action taken where appropriate.  Thanks again for bringing this to my attention.  I will keep an eye on things to make sure that what you experienced doesn't happen again.  You have my sincere apologies.
> 
> Cliff




Mr. Hagberg

Would you please post the name of the Senior Manager who will be at Sandcastle for the rest of the summer, in case an owner wishes to contact him/her directly about any questions?

Thanks so much
ChrisH


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hi ChrisH

I'd prefer not to post people's names without speaking with them first but the resort manager is there all week and I am usually there several days a week to meet with owners.  Any owners wishing to contact me may do so at nevmsllc@gmail.com

Cliff


----------



## ChrisH

*Not even a Sally? Frank? Tom? Joe?*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi ChrisH
> 
> I'd prefer not to post people's names without speaking with them first but the resort manager is there all week and I am usually there several days a week to meet with owners.  Any owners wishing to contact me may do so at nevmsllc@gmail.com
> 
> Cliff



So maybe a first name and an extension at the resort?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

The resort manager's name is Debbie or you can email me your questions anytime.


----------



## Sou13

*Beware of the sly fox getting into the henhouse!*

Quote:
Originally Posted by *ginnyB60*_There has to be another way.  Whatever the by-laws state I do not want my personal information being handed out to hundreds of strangers.  Perhaps the by-laws were written pre internet and such preliferation of identity theft.

This list would be worth thousands of dollars to anyone who got a hold of it and wanted to sell it.  I've had this happen to me before and it was a nightmare.

I'm not prepared to go through that again_.​
I share your concern about the owners' list falling into the wrong hands.  Now let me share my concern about my "Concerned Southcape Owners and Friends" elist falling into the wrong hands:

When NEVMSLLC began posting to the "Southcape Resort" discussion he was preceded by a single post by "massman631" who never posted again.  Three days later NEVMSLLC entered the discussion with this post:

_My name is Cliff Hagberg and I am a trustee at Southcape Resort. I 
am concerned about a number of untruths and misrepresentations that 
have appeared on this board and i am perfectly willing to address 
issues of concern for any owner at Southcape Resort. Please 
understand that I cannot discuss legal issues nor will I respond to 
any personal attacks. Having set those ground rules, I would 
very much appreciate an opportunity to try and answer those questions 
that any owner at Southcape might have. I look forward to a fruitful 
dialog._http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=693201#post693201 ​
On the same day that "massman631"  posted his one and only post to TUG I received this message:

_This is a message from capeguitarguy at Timeshare Users Group Online Community Forums ( http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index.php ). The Timeshare Users Group Online Community Forums owners cannot accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.

To email capeguitarguy, you can use this online form:
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=35211

OR, by email:
mailto:capeguitarguy@gmail.com

This is the message:

Hi

Been following the posts about Southcape.  I own a float week and wondering about assessment.  Can you add me to your mailing list?  Thanks_​
I have since learned that "capeguitarguy", "massman631","vivmarch", "Wfweinstein" and God and Cliff Hagberg know who else were/are all Cliff Hagberg posing as someone else on TUG.

Since I no longer trust any new posters to TUG I am no longer inviting them to be subscribed to my elist and am carefully vetting anyone who emails me via TUG.  But in the meantime I'm convinced that NEVMSLLC had a pressing need to know what has been going on behind the scenes at Southcape and Sandcastle.

So now he doesn't want you to know who the resort manager is and is "usually there to meet with owners"?

Haven't you received and reviewed compiled financial statements for 2007 and 2008 and the budget for 2009?  If not, why not, and why aren't you requesting these documents?  What about that expected Special Assessment?  Will you simply accept it and pay it without any objection?

I'm concerned about what NEVMSLLC is doing on the scene at our sister resorts.  He doubled the salary he's paying himself for whatever it is he's been doing at Southcape.  He's been out sick with bronchitis from time to time for I don't know how long, as he has posted to Twitter in May.  He sits at a picnic table talking to Sandcastle owners and throws a cookout at Southcape to name just a few of his admitted activities.  

Yes, ginnyB60, I share your concern.  Our owners' list was given to Outfield Marketing because 75% of NEVS is owned by principals of Outfield Marketing!  You ought to be even more concerned than you have expressed here!


----------



## ChrisH

Originally Posted by NEVMSLLC  
Thank you, Rambler!

I too heard about a complaint about sales last week and I will tell you what happened. There was a new sales rep who started the previous Saturday. On Tuesday, I received a complaint from an owner who had just received a presentation. I drove to the Sandcastle and met with the owner to hear what had happened. I then looked at the rep's appointment schedule to find someone else he had spoken with. I contacted that owner (who hadn't complained) and spoke with them about what happened.

When I heard the same story from both owners, I contacted Outfield Marketing and explained the situation to them on Wednesday. Outfield sent a memo to the sales staff explaining that, if there were further complaints, the sales rep would be terminated. On Thursday, I was concerned enough to discuss the situation at length with Outfield and on Friday the sales rep was terminated and is no longer associated with the Sandcastle.
*
On Monday of this week, Outfield sent a senior manager to the resort to retrain the sales reps and to remain on site for the rest of the summer to assure me that no more problems like this would develop. *That retraining is going on as I write this.

I have to take a minute to speak about complaints. Every week, I get complaints about front desk staff, maintenance people, office people, even the maid staff. When I can verify that a complaint is legitimate, immediate action is taken no matter who is involved.

Owners and even non-owners who post on TUG have to understand that I can't deal with problems I don't know about. Nor can I deal with problems where owners won't discuss it with me. I had an owner last week demanding that I fire a woman who worked the front desk because the owner claimed that she was rude and abusive. Upon investigation, I was informed by another owner that it was the first owner who was screaming and swearing in the lobby. Our front desk staff refused to deal with her anymore unless she calmed down and stopped swearing at them. The owner then got my number, called me and wanted at least one person fired.

Not all complaints are legitimate but all are investigated and action taken where appropriate. Thanks again for bringing this to my attention. I will keep an eye on things to make sure that what you experienced doesn't happen again. You have my sincere apologies.

Cliff




NEVMSLLC said:


> The resort manager's name is Debbie or you can email me your questions anytime.


Mr. Hagberg

I asked for first the name and extension of the Senior Manager of Outfield Marketing that is present at Sandcastle Resort as you stated in your post:

 "On Monday of this week, Outfield sent a senior manager to the resort to retrain the sales reps and to remain on site for the rest of the summer to assure me that no more problems like this would develop."

Is Debbie the "Sandcastle Resort Manager"  or the "Senior Manager of Outfield Marketing"  who will be at Sandcastle this summer?  Your response is unclear.  Also no phone number/extension was provided.  

This would be helpful for all owner's who meet with Outfield and have questions (or even complaints) and wish to contact this specific manager while at Sandcastle or after they return home.

Thanks
Chris


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Chris

For more information, please email me at nevmsllc@gmail.com

Cliff


----------



## Carolinian

ginnyB60 said:


> There has to be another way.  Whatever the by-laws state I do not want my personal information being handed out to hundreds of strangers.  Perhaps the by-laws were written pre internet and such preliferation of identity theft.
> 
> This list would be worth thousands of dollars to anyone who got a hold of it and wanted to sell it.  I've had this happen to me before and it was a nightmare.
> 
> I'm not prepared to go through that again.



Ginny (or is it Cliff?), Your real concern should be about these sharks at Outfield Marketing being handed the list by management with a huge conflict of interest, not by concerned owners getting the list to try to shut down the Outfield / Festiva scam and get owners in charge of the HOA, as they should be, instead of a self-interested developer / manager.  Getting that list into the right hands is the first step in ending the developer dictatorship and achieving homeowner democracy and proper management in your HOA.

I was part of a group that had to pry an owners list out of a reluctant management company at a resort on the OBX, and yes we had to threaten to take them to court to get it.  We knew of lots of mismanagement by that management company when we started the effort, but after our initial mailing and the things other owners told us, what we had known was just the tip of the iceberg.  The proxy fight the next annual meeting netted one of the two board seats up for the Concerned Owners, and the battle continued until an owner-oriented board majority was finally achieved and the management company fired.  The new management company, under the eye of a much more watchful HOA board is now doing a great job.

Someone needs to pick up the ball and run with it to organize the owners.

Personally, I would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER buy at a developer controlled resort.


----------



## ChrisH

*Simple Question - NO ANSWER AGAIN*



NEVMSLLC said:


> The resort manager's name is Debbie or you can email me your questions anytime.





NEVMSLLC said:


> Chris
> 
> For more information, please email me at nevmsllc@gmail.com
> 
> Cliff



Mr. Hagberg

You state that you are greatly concerned about owner's complaints and are trying to act in their best interests.

I asked a simple question, the first name and extension of the Senior Mgr for Outfield Marketing who you state will be at Sandcastle all summer - for the benefit of owner's who wish/need to contact him or her while at the resort or after returning home.

As you first said Deb was the Resort Mgr, and I asked you to clarify if she was the Senior Outfield Mgr - you answered neither Yes or NO.  I have to *ASS*ume that means NO.  Because if it was yes, and her name was already posted here by you, you would have said so.

So if you really want to assist us, why is the Outfield Mgr a secret????
It makes no sense.  NONE WHATSOEVER.  If this person is there to make sure all the OMReps are working appropriately with owners etc. during sales, presentations, etc.  then why can't we owners know how to contact this person and who to ask for?  

You have NEVER answered my questions truthfully, most often not at all.  Usually you ignore me.  Now you're playing head games instead.  Getting really fed up.

Answer it OR not.  It will prove just how 'honest and upfront' you are.  It's such a simple question, can't harm anyone, should be available to owner's, would be helpful to owner's, might even take some burden off you, while you working other parts of the Cape.  But NO STRAIGHT ANSWER HERE.

Chris (FedupwithCliff, fedupwithcliff, reallyreallyfedupwithcliff) H


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Chris

I'm more than happy to answer all of your questions as I am for any Sandcastle owner.  Please email me at nevmsllc@gmail.com.  If you don't want answers, then don't email me.

Any other owners can reach me at that address as well.

Cliff


----------



## ChrisH

*You've proved my point*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Chris
> 
> I'm more than happy to answer all of your questions as I am for any Sandcastle owner.  Please email me at nevmsllc@gmail.com.  If you don't want answers, then don't email me.
> 
> Any other owners can reach me at that address as well.
> 
> Cliff



Mr Hagberg

As Usual  :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: 
You say you won't answer any legal questions on this forum.  I did not ask a legal question.  You just pick and choose what is convenient for you to answer and skip what you don't want to answer.

Next time, if there is one - be honest and just say 'I am not going to answer you' the first time instead of your continuous BS* skirting around and pretending you're one upfront guy.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

ChrisH

I have no idea why you're getting upset when I've told you three times that I'd be happy to answer your questions.  All you have to do is to email me at nevmsllc@gmail.com.

Cliff


----------



## ChrisH

*Dearest Octopersona*

Mr. Hagberg::whoopie: 

alias Massman631;  alias VivMarch; alias Wfweinstein; alias capeguitarguy; alias NEVMSLCC; alias :ignore: unknown identities yet to be 'outed' 

I am not upset - you have proven a point - over and over -

We are not dealing with honesty or integrity or truthfulness whenever we ask you a question.  

You should just plug in and autoreply: 'I will not answer your question.'
Unless of course you are pretending to NOT be NEVMSLLC and instead to be a 'concerned'  or 'happy'  owner or one of your other OCTOPERSONAE (?sp for the plural of Octopersona)  


Chris :hysterical:  :hysterical:  :hysterical:


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Chris - I received an email from a woman yesterday asking the exact same questions that you've asked.  Of course, as I promised, I answered all of her questions.

Could that have been you already?


----------



## JackB62

I'd be afraid that you'd sell my e-mail address.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

*You make a point*



JackB62 said:


> I'd be afraid that you'd sell my e-mail address.



One thing you and other owners may not be aware of is that the names of timeshare owners are worth up to $4.00 apiece.  Lists are often sold to timeshare marketers and other direct response companies.  Anyone could buy a cheap week at a resort and then demand the list - anyone.  Then wait for the phone calls and letters . .  .


----------



## JackB62

NEVMSLLC said:


> One thing you and other owners may not be aware of is that the names of timeshare owners are worth up to $4.00 apiece.  Lists are often sold to timeshare marketers and other direct response companies.  Anyone could buy a cheap week at a resort and then demand the list - anyone.  Then wait for the phone calls and letters . .  .



If "anyone" can do it, why won't you release the lists to your own owners groups.


----------



## Classylassy523

*I am the woman who emailed you last night*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Chris - I received an email from a woman yesterday asking the exact same questions that you've asked.  Of course, as I promised, I answered all of her questions.
> 
> Could that have been you already?



Mr. Hagberg ...

I am the person who emailed you last night and made 3 requests.  There are more than a few people who have been watching, reading and raising questions, doubts and concerns about what is happening since you stepped into your position.  

I was curious as to whether or not you would respond and if you did, what kind of answers I would get.

Following is the body of my email:

I am a deeded owner of an interval week at Sandcastle Resort, Provincetown, MA - Week 40, Unit 405.  

My first request to you is the name of the person in charge or overseeing the Outfield Marketing personnel in place at the Sandcastle and the phone number and/or extension at which to reach this person.  Also, I would like the name of the manager of the resort itself along with a phone number and/or extension to contact this person.

My second request to you is for a complete and current list of deeded owners (including addresses and contact information) of interval weeks at the Sandcastle Resort.  This is a perfectly legal and reasonable request.  By law of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts it is your obligation and responsibility to respond fully with this request.

My third request is for a detailed copy of the operating budget for the year 2009 that includes ordinary operations, and expected and unexpected maintenance projects, utility budgets, salaries and wages for all persons on the resort's payroll, taxes (property, and payroll), insurance premiums and any and all anticipated expenditures beyond the every day operation of the resort.  You have reassured the owners that the resort would have an operating budge for the first time in 2009 and it would be available to us.  As you are aware, it is July so I think I am safe in assuming that you have a budget in place.  I am a bookkeeper and will be able to read and understand an operating budget report.

I thank you in advance for you assistance and willingness to comply with my requests


Following is your response:

Thank you for your email.  As per your request, the resort manager is Debbie Menengas.  The on site manager for Outfield Marketing is Marty Guthrie.  I'm afraid I don't know their extensions off hand because I am not at my office but you can reach both of them at the resort.


I will pass your request for the owner's list on to the trustees.


You are welcome to inspect the financial records when you are at the resort.  All we ask is that you make an appointment in advance.


If I may be of further assistance, please don't hesitate to contact me.


Thank you for the names you provided, but, as seems to be your track record, you have answered with mostly non-answers.  Now instead of stating you will not provide the owners list, you are saying you are passing it onto the trustees.  Why?  It was a perfectly reasonable request, a lawful request.  Do you ask the trustees permission before you make any decisions?  Regarding my request for the detailed budget, why do I have to wait until I am at the resort?  The year will be pretty much over.  It would seem to me that the detailed budget should have been available at the time of the annual meeting, if not before, and should have been provided to every owner.  That would surely be an example of transparent management. 

But, thank you for responding to my email.  Now, after your comment on this forum this morning, I wonder if you only responded because you thought I was someone else.  We won't know to that question now, will we?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Classylassy523 said:


> Mr. Hagberg ...
> 
> I am the person who emailed you last night and made 3 requests.  There are more than a few people who have been watching, reading and raising questions, doubts and concerns about what is happening since you stepped into your position.
> 
> I was curious as to whether or not you would respond and if you did, what kind of answers I would get.
> 
> Following is the body of my email:
> 
> I am a deeded owner of an interval week at Sandcastle Resort, Provincetown, MA - Week 40, Unit 405.
> 
> My first request to you is the name of the person in charge or overseeing the Outfield Marketing personnel in place at the Sandcastle and the phone number and/or extension at which to reach this person.  Also, I would like the name of the manager of the resort itself along with a phone number and/or extension to contact this person.
> 
> My second request to you is for a complete and current list of deeded owners (including addresses and contact information) of interval weeks at the Sandcastle Resort.  This is a perfectly legal and reasonable request.  By law of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts it is your obligation and responsibility to respond fully with this request.
> 
> My third request is for a detailed copy of the operating budget for the year 2009 that includes ordinary operations, and expected and unexpected maintenance projects, utility budgets, salaries and wages for all persons on the resort's payroll, taxes (property, and payroll), insurance premiums and any and all anticipated expenditures beyond the every day operation of the resort.  You have reassured the owners that the resort would have an operating budge for the first time in 2009 and it would be available to us.  As you are aware, it is July so I think I am safe in assuming that you have a budget in place.  I am a bookkeeper and will be able to read and understand an operating budget report.
> 
> I thank you in advance for you assistance and willingness to comply with my requests
> 
> 
> Following is your response:
> 
> Thank you for your email.  As per your request, the resort manager is Debbie Menengas.  The on site manager for Outfield Marketing is Marty Guthrie.  I'm afraid I don't know their extensions off hand because I am not at my office but you can reach both of them at the resort.
> 
> 
> I will pass your request for the owner's list on to the trustees.
> 
> 
> You are welcome to inspect the financial records when you are at the resort.  All we ask is that you make an appointment in advance.
> 
> 
> If I may be of further assistance, please don't hesitate to contact me.
> 
> 
> Thank you for the names you provided, but, as seems to be your track record, you have answered with mostly non-answers.  Now instead of stating you will not provide the owners list, you are saying you are passing it onto the trustees.  Why?  It was a perfectly reasonable request, a lawful request.  Do you ask the trustees permission before you make any decisions?  Regarding my request for the detailed budget, why do I have to wait until I am at the resort?  The year will be pretty much over.  It would seem to me that the detailed budget should have been available at the time of the annual meeting, if not before, and should have been provided to every owner.  That would surely be an example of transparent management.
> 
> But, thank you for responding to my email.  Now, after your comment on this forum this morning, I wonder if you only responded because you thought I was someone else.  We won't know to that question now, will we?



If private communications are going to be posted on here, why would I bother answering owners are all?  Most owners are appreciative of the fact that I do communicate with them and respect that communication.  I will continue to do so except with owners that post our communications on public sites without my knowledge, approval or permission.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

*Classylassy*

I also am disturbed by your posting names of people who have no idea what's going on here.  One of the reasons I wanted to go private was to protect the identity of people who had no idea their names might be posted on there.

It's not that there's anything wrong about posting their names as they do have jobs that requirement to interact with the public.  I just don't like doing it without their knowledge anymore than you'd enjoy me posting your real name on here without discussing it with you first.

Would you like me to post your real name on here?

Cliff


----------



## Classylassy523

NEVMSLLC said:


> I also am disturbed by your posting names of people who have no idea what's going on here.  One of the reasons I wanted to go private was to protect the identity of people who had no idea their names might be posted on there.
> 
> It's not that there's anything wrong about posting their names as they do have jobs that requirement to interact with the public.  I just don't like doing it without their knowledge anymore than you'd enjoy me posting your real name on here without discussing it with you first.
> 
> Would you like me to post your real name on here?
> 
> Cliff



You don't have to, Mr. Hagberg ... I will provide it myself.  And, please don't expect me or anyone else to believe that these key people in your organization do not know 'what is going on here'.  They would have to be living in a clam shell to be unaware of the deeded owners who have decided to stand up and fight rather than rollover and settle for what you and your crew are offering.  I would think that you would have this as required reading for those who deal with owners about this mess every day.  You must know the saying .... forewarned is forearmed.  

My real name is:
Jean Gallant


----------



## Carolinian

Oh?  Is that what Outfield paid YOU for them?  Or do you have some other financial arrangement like a percentage of their take?  Does any of that go into the HOA budget?

You have set out what the list you provided to Outfield for their commerical purposes is worth.  If any sum less than that has been turned over to the HOA, you are in violation of your fiduciary duties as a trustee.

Providing a list to a member for communication with other members is quite different.  Every state law on that I have seen makes it illegal for a member receiving a list for this purpose to turn it over to someone else or use it themselves for commercial purposes.  Members are protected by state law when a list is turned over to a member for the purposes of contacting other members.  Members are NOT protected when a list is turned over for commercial purposes like your turning the list over to Outfield.




NEVMSLLC said:


> One thing you and other owners may not be aware of is that the names of timeshare owners are worth up to $4.00 apiece.  Lists are often sold to timeshare marketers and other direct response companies.  Anyone could buy a cheap week at a resort and then demand the list - anyone.  Then wait for the phone calls and letters . .  .


----------



## ChrisH

*Dearest OCTOPERSONA*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Chris - I received an email from a woman yesterday asking the exact same questions that you've asked.  Of course, as I promised, I answered all of her questions.
> 
> Could that have been you already?



OCTOMAN: 

Couldn't be bothered to contact you as I have no idea which of your persona's would reply and then would have had a really hard time believing any of them anyway.

Let's finalize this and put it to rest.  You're wasting space on these posts.

I, for one, am done with this particular part of the Sandcastle thread.

:zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:


----------



## Carolinian

Standing up and fighting is more than just posting on these threads.  It means organizing, hiring a lawyer, getting that membership list (hopefully, you can collect your attorneys fees back from ''Stonewall'' Hagberg in the process), and recapturing your HOA from this incestuous developer dictatorship.


----------



## Fig

*Are things unraveling between Festiva and Outfield Marketing?*

Keep in mind, Festiva is under investigation by the NC AG. This is a fairly recent addition to the Festiva Resorts website.

Outfield Marketing

Outfield Marketing is a third party company hired by Festiva to present and sell the Festiva Adventure Club to various fixed week owners along with members of the PVTC. Outfield Marketing predominantly sold the Festiva Adventure Club by setting up appointments to come to members’ homes. On May 6, 2009, Festiva made a decision to restrict Outfield Marketing from contacting PVTC members from that date on. 

You should no longer receive calls from Outfield Marketing sales personnel who wish to come to your home to discuss the Festiva Adventure Club. If you receive such a call please take the person’s full name and contact the Festiva Owner Services department at 866-933-7848. Festiva sales or marketing personnel may contact you and ask you to visit a resort for a sales presentation or may contact you while you are at the resort; however, you will not be asked to allow someone to come to your home.

http://www.festivaresorts.com/pvtc_generalinfo.php

Hmm...just wondering what would prompt such a public declaration from Festiva. Keep in mind, Outfield Marketing was active in MO selling points when Festiva was slapped with a fine by the MO AG.

Steve Lamatia, with Outfield Marketing, is your trustee that Cliff will discuss the owners list with, was thrown out of a house for trying to convert an owner to points. 

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html

The question is...why was Steve Lamatia who appears at the epicenture of a case in MO where the AG slapped Festiva with a fine appointed as a "TRUSTee" at Sandcastle and Southcape in the first place? Was it to safegauard the interest of owners or give his fellow employees access to owners names and address to convert them at $3,000 a pop to Festiva points? Just wondering out loud here.


----------



## london

*Owners Rights*

Owners rights are important, and most board of directors try to comply with requests for financial data such as profit and loss, reserve funding etc.

Most have informative newsletters, and many have websites to supply a wealth of information.

I will be interested to see what happens with this resort in the next 6 months.

Owners should not be kept in the dark about matters that effect all the owners of the resort.


----------



## Carolinian

I would agree that most boards at homeowner-run resorts are generally excellent in providing information and upholding owners rights.  Boards which are under the thumb of either a developer or management are another kettle of fish entirely, however.  The key for this resort to move forward is to achieve a homeowner-controlled board and it is clear that the members are going to have to overcome developer / management opposition to do that.

That is a big difference in timesharing.  Frankly, I would never own at a resort with a developer-controlled HOA board, or a board that is under the thumb of management.





london said:


> Owners rights are important, and most board of directors try to comply with requests for financial data such as profit and loss, reserve funding etc.
> 
> Most have informative newsletters, and many have websites to supply a wealth of information.
> 
> I will be interested to see what happens with this resort in the next 6 months.
> 
> Owners should not be kept in the dark about matters that effect all the owners of the resort.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> One thing you and other owners may not be aware of is that the names of timeshare owners are worth up to $4.00 apiece.  Lists are often sold to timeshare marketers and other direct response companies.  Anyone could buy a cheap week at a resort and then demand the list - anyone.  Then wait for the phone calls and letters . .  .



Cliff,

If you feel it is imprudent to adhere to the letter of the law, then at least attempt to adhere to the spirit of the law.

The law is clearly designed to allow members to communicate with each other regarding the governance of the association. It is explicit and clearly defined. It clearly states:

"The managing entity shall keep reasonably available for inspection and copying by any time-share owner all addresses, known to it or to the developer, of all the time-share owners with the principal permanent residence address of each indicated if known."

There is no provision for exception. The law has been on the books for over 20 years. To now say that the State did not know what they were doing when they passed that law is presumptuous. You have no authority to ignore the law on that basis. By extension you could then come up a variety of pausible reasons to violate any law. 

Nor, is the fact that the list is valuable a reason to ignore the law.

And you know that you are protected by any lawsuit. Your protection is the law itself. 

If you feel so strongly that the State is wrong with law, then when the request comes in, go into court and request relief. This is exactly what  WorldMark did when faced with the same issue. They mounted the exact same defense that you are offering here, and the court ruled against them. They are exercising their right to appeal, or there already would be case law precedence on this issue.

Simulantously to your request for relief, you could offer concerned owners a process which complies with the spirit of the law while protecting privacy of owners. There are variety of options you have in that regard. Your acting like this is a brand new issue, but for-profit corporations have addressed with issue previously. 

So it really does not further your case when suggest that you cannot do anything. 

At some point, you and your ARDA buddies are going to have to play by the rules. You can forestall that day all you want, and that is all you are doing. Your representing this as an issue where you have the best interests of the owners in mind, when you do not. You simply want to inhibit communication between owners. If you had the proper motivation to make this happen, we would not even be having this discussion.

Just set up a process where owner communications from other owners pertaining to association business are forwarded by you to the owners. If done electronically, the cost to you would be nominal. Then you have adhered to the spirit of the law while protecting the privacy of owners. You could even offer an opt out process for owners that do not want to receive outside communications. But it is not in your personal best interest to entertain a process like this.


----------



## ecwinch

Classylassy523 said:


> Regarding my request for the detailed budget, why do I have to wait until I am at the resort?  The year will be pretty much over.  It would seem to me that the detailed budget should have been available at the time of the annual meeting, if not before, and should have been provided to every owner.  That would surely be an example of transparent management.



I hate to side with Cliff, but the statute is clear that any inspection of the financial records has to be at the place of business. There is no obligation to provide copies of any detailed financial records by mail. 

Most states require an annual financial report be provided to all owners by mail, but that tends to be summary information in line item format without the supporting detail you seem to be requesting.


----------



## tombo

*News Clip about Festiva*

Nice clip from local news station investigating Festiva. The North Carolina AG is also interviewed and they are investigating Festiva too. Listen to what the CEO from Festiva tells the reporter and try to count the lies. We no longer outsource our sales (does Festiva own Outfield?), this is a wake up call that we need to train our sales force better (settling with Missori AG not a wake up call but this local TV news story is, yeah right), these are isolated incidents (100% of the people posting here who went through the Outfield sales presentation were told the same lies. How is that isolated?),  and we tried to make a reservation for the man the article is about (he said he was told nothing was available this year). The CEO of Festiva said these things and more in a short phone call with the reporter. The CEO acts like the rogue sales force they used in Missouri is long gone and they now have a new ethical sales force. He doesn't mention that Steve Lamantia was selling in Missouri before the AG's lawsuit was filed and that Steve Lamantia is still involved with Festiva sales through his association with Outfield and NEVMS. Some owners here stated that Steve was the salesman who tried to get them to convert from deeded week to points at Sancastle and Southscape. I don't know if there is anyone involved with Festiva,Outfield, or NEVMS who will tell truth on tough questions. If there is someone like that they have yet to post here or answer questions online or on TV. 

Nothing has changed and nothing will until Festiva is sued out of existence. Mobilize owners, hire a lawyer, and fight them tooth and nail before they own enough weeks to forever control your resort. 

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/abc11_investigates&id=6789555


----------



## e.bram

Ich bein ain Sandcastler and Southcaper(even if I don't own there). All TS owners(myself included) should contribute to a legal fund. We are all vulnerable to the problems facing the above owners unless TS grabs can be stopped in court.


----------



## mweinberg

ecwinch said:


> Cliff,
> 
> If you feel it is imprudent to adhere to the letter of the law, then at least attempt to adhere to the spirit of the law.
> 
> The law is clearly designed to allow members to communicate with each other regarding the governance of the association. It is explicit and clearly defined. It clearly states:
> 
> "The managing entity shall keep reasonably available for inspection and copying by any time-share owner all addresses, known to it or to the developer, of all the time-share owners with the principal permanent residence address of each indicated if known."
> 
> There is no provision for exception. The law has been on the books for over 20 years. To now say that the State did not know what they were doing when they passed that law is presumptuous. You have no authority to ignore the law on that basis. By extension you could then come up a variety of pausible reasons to violate any law.
> 
> Nor, is the fact that the list is valuable a reason to ignore the law.
> 
> And you know that you are protected by any lawsuit. Your protection is the law itself.
> 
> If you feel so strongly that the State is wrong with law, then when the request comes in, go into court and request relief. This is exactly what  WorldMark did when faced with the same issue. They mounted the exact same defense that you are offering here, and the court ruled against them. They are exercising their right to appeal, or there already would be case law precedence on this issue.
> 
> Simulantously to your request for relief, you could offer concerned owners a process which complies with the spirit of the law while protecting privacy of owners. There are variety of options you have in that regard. Your acting like this is a brand new issue, but for-profit corporations have addressed with issue previously.
> 
> So it really does not further your case when suggest that you cannot do anything.
> 
> At some point, you and your ARDA buddies are going to have to play by the rules. You can forestall that day all you want, and that is all you are doing. Your representing this as an issue where you have the best interests of the owners in mind, when you do not. You simply want to inhibit communication between owners. If you had the proper motivation to make this happen, we would not even be having this discussion.
> 
> Just set up a process where owner communications from other owners pertaining to association business are forwarded by you to the owners. If done electronically, the cost to you would be nominal. Then you have adhered to the spirit of the law while protecting the privacy of owners. You could even offer an opt out process for owners that do not want to receive outside communications. But it is not in your personal best interest to entertain a process like this.



If the point is coming when we need to band together to fight against what is going in, the owners' list would be invaluable, as we're probably going to need more support that we can get just from here.  I think what needs to happen is that someone who has a week coming up at the Sandcastle needs to ask to see the list while there, and then when it is refused them, they need to complain immediately to the MA Attorney General.  She would probably be the first line of defense in making sure MGL 183B.32 is enforced.

Michael


----------



## mweinberg

e.bram said:


> Ich bein ain Sandcastler and Southcaper(even if I don't own there). All TS owners(myself included) should contribute to a legal fund. We are all vulnerable to the problems facing the above owners unless TS grabs can be stopped in court.



Count me in!


----------



## Carolinian

Octaperson clearly believes that he is ABOVE the law.  It is time for owners to club together, hire an attorney, get it in court and let a judge lower the boom on him.




ecwinch said:


> Cliff,
> 
> If you feel it is imprudent to adhere to the letter of the law, then at least attempt to adhere to the spirit of the law.
> 
> The law is clearly designed to allow members to communicate with each other regarding the governance of the association. It is explicit and clearly defined. It clearly states:
> 
> "The managing entity shall keep reasonably available for inspection and copying by any time-share owner all addresses, known to it or to the developer, of all the time-share owners with the principal permanent residence address of each indicated if known."
> 
> There is no provision for exception. The law has been on the books for over 20 years. To now say that the State did not know what they were doing when they passed that law is presumptuous. You have no authority to ignore the law on that basis. By extension you could then come up a variety of pausible reasons to violate any law.
> 
> Nor, is the fact that the list is valuable a reason to ignore the law.
> 
> And you know that you are protected by any lawsuit. Your protection is the law itself.
> 
> If you feel so strongly that the State is wrong with law, then when the request comes in, go into court and request relief. This is exactly what  WorldMark did when faced with the same issue. They mounted the exact same defense that you are offering here, and the court ruled against them. They are exercising their right to appeal, or there already would be case law precedence on this issue.
> 
> Simulantously to your request for relief, you could offer concerned owners a process which complies with the spirit of the law while protecting privacy of owners. There are variety of options you have in that regard. Your acting like this is a brand new issue, but for-profit corporations have addressed with issue previously.
> 
> So it really does not further your case when suggest that you cannot do anything.
> 
> At some point, you and your ARDA buddies are going to have to play by the rules. You can forestall that day all you want, and that is all you are doing. Your representing this as an issue where you have the best interests of the owners in mind, when you do not. You simply want to inhibit communication between owners. If you had the proper motivation to make this happen, we would not even be having this discussion.
> 
> Just set up a process where owner communications from other owners pertaining to association business are forwarded by you to the owners. If done electronically, the cost to you would be nominal. Then you have adhered to the spirit of the law while protecting the privacy of owners. You could even offer an opt out process for owners that do not want to receive outside communications. But it is not in your personal best interest to entertain a process like this.


----------



## Carolinian

mweinberg said:


> If the point is coming when we need to band together to fight against what is going in, the owners' list would be invaluable, as we're probably going to need more support that we can get just from here.  I think what needs to happen is that someone who has a week coming up at the Sandcastle needs to ask to see the list while there, and then when it is refused them, they need to complain immediately to the MA Attorney General.  She would probably be the first line of defense in making sure MGL 183B.32 is enforced.
> 
> Michael



Maybe you can find an owner who is an attorney in Massachutsetts.  If not, a lawsuit to obtain the list is a fairly simple issue and should not be an expensive proposition.  If you pin Cliff's ears back on that one, it may make it easier to deal with him on other issues.  Local law might even provide an avenue to recoup you attorneys fees from NEVS.  I will make you a contribution even though I do not own there.  We don't need sharks like these in the timeshare industry.


----------



## Sou13

*Where does Cliff Hagberg own timeshares?*

I've been searching the registry for deeds for timeshares owned by Clifford Hagberg and can't find any for Southcape.  Check for yourselves at https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.HTM?

I'll be back tomorrow.  Gotta go now.


----------



## ChrisH

*List of Units purchased by NEVS*

Barbstable Deeds  BK 23138  p 185:  
Contains the commercial mortgage for $2.5 million.  Pages 197-264 of this document list all the units transferred to NEVS, LLC.

Bk-Pg:23138-185  Recorded: 09-04-2008 @ 3:44:18pm  Inst #: 46645  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N
Pages in document: 82
Grp: 1 
Type: Mortgage  Doc$: 2,500,000.00
Desc: SEE INSTRUMENT

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 
Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 

Gtor:	NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)

Gtee:	COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtee)
Middletown, CT


----------



## ProfPaul

*Report from the front*

I've been lurking on this thread for several months, and am now going to jump in. I am at this moment at Sandcastles, enjoying my two deeded weeks. If my IP address is suspiciously similar to Cliff Hagberg's, it's because we're on the same wireless router. But please be assured I am not Cliff Hagberg.

My wife and I have been owners here for seven years, and we love the place. We don't want to see it change, but we understand that change is necessary. Unfortunately there's been a lot of bad information, and bad faith, around that change. But the way we see it, the situation is not nearly as dire as some people paint it, and there is really no need for lawsuits, criminal accusations, or conspiracy theories.
We agree that Outfield Marketing has been doing some awful things in the name of Sandcastle. But it's very important to understand who the players are, and their relationship to each other--and not to panic.

We were visited by an Outfield rep last fall, and when we were told we had to sign with him that day or the deal was off, we threw him out of the house.  We since spoke with a couple of other owners (the rep let slip enough information that we were able to find them) who agreed with us that the Outfield/Festiva deal smelled pretty bad. We also spoke with a Festiva rep last week here in P'town, after they promised us a $50 gift card for listening to their spiel, and once again we declined. (We used the $50 at the Stop&Shop and to join TUG.) 

But we complained loud and long enough that we got an audience with Cliff Hagberg, the new owner/manager of the resort, and we got some very good information from him, which I'll share in this post.

I know many slimy business people--I've worked in the music business for 30 years, and they don't come much slimier. I don't think Cliff fits that description at all. He is smart, and dots all his i's, and of course he is interested in making money--he's been in the timeshare business a long time and it's what he does--but his goals and the goals of the current owners are in fact not in opposition to each other. 

Here's what we found out:

1) He and his partners (who include the principals of Outfield Marketing) own 52% of the shares in the resort. Therefore he can pretty much call the shots right now. But his goal is to sell the shares he owns, and therefore relinquish control to an owners' association.

2) When he bought the outstanding inventory, there was something like $3 million in unpaid maintenance fees, and the previous owners had made very little effort to collect any of it. He is now working on this and expects to collect about 8 cents on the dollar over the next couple of years. Those delinquent owners whom he cannot settle with he will take legal action against, so the Resort can take possession of their units.

3) The Resort needs a lot of work. The previous owners let it go, both physically and financially. There have already been two lawsuits filed against the Resort based on hazardous conditions. That work is going to take a lot of money. The septic tank/sewer issue is going to be very expensive, and is a long way from resolution. if the work isn't done, and the property fails building codes and/or becomes insolvent, everyone--us and Cliff--are screwed. It's happened before not far away or long ago: check out http://www.hotel-online.com/News/PR2005_2nd/Jun05_YarmouthTimeShare.html

4) There is going to be an assessment of around $850 (per unit/week) this year. This is expected to be a ONE-TIME fee. Maintenance fees, which went up 25% last year, will go up only about 4-5%, maybe less. If things go as projected, there will be NO further assessments in the foreseeable future, and maintenance fee increases over the next several years will be close to the cost of living index (taking into account the cost of energy, waste removal, staff wages, insurance, etc.).

5) His company gets no revenue from sales or trades to Festiva. The current push to sell Festiva points is a way to create a relationship with Outfield Marketing so that when they are ready to sell weeks (as opposed to points), Outfield will be able to do so. It is also a way to give owners who are interested in points programs an opportunity to do so.

6) There is no danger that Festiva will become the "owners" of Sandcastle. No matter how many owners trade in for Festiva points, Festiva cannot take control of the Resort or even have a seat on the board of trustees. That's written into their contract.

7) He has not been able to sell weeks because of restrictions placed by the mortgage holders. But this is a temporary situation which he expects to have resolved in a matter of weeks, if not days. When he starts selling weeks, the maintenance fees from the new owners will go to the Resort, which will help the financial picture considerably.

8) Once he sells off the current inventory, ownership of the Resort will revert back to the owners--that is, us. That is his goal, and how he will make his money. (Winter weeks and dead inventory do not have voting rights, he told an owners' meeting last night, so even if he can't sell that inventory, this scenario will still happen.) We will be able to elect members of the board of trustees, and can have one or more owners on the board.

9) Sandcastle owners can still bank their weeks with RCI, just as they always could. They cannot trade them for RCI Points, which is a totally different program, and Sandcastle never belonged to that program. On the other hand, Cliff Hagberg is negotiating with another points provider, International Interval (II) for membership.

10) Outfield Marketing has been doing their Sandcastle sales pitches outside of Cliff's supervision. That is now changing. He says he has heard about 40 complaints, many of them similar in nature. Two salesmen (one in P'town and one at his other resort, Southcape, in Mashpee) have been fired this week for misleading customers. He has told us, and the owners' meeting, that he will not tolerate the kind of misleading sales tactics we have been complaining about. He has in the past week brought in a new supervisor and a new trainer, and if he still gets complaints, he says, he will fire them. Timeshare salespeople in general do not have the highest ethical standards, as most of us know, but Cliff needs a sales force to generate the revenue that Sandcastles needs, and Outfield is who he got into bed with. It's in his interest not to let them piss off the owners. He's a little late, but I think his efforts to control them are genuine.

11) If you don't want to join the Festiva points program, DON'T!! Don't feel pressured into doing something you don't want to do. Your deed is yours and they can't take it away from you. If you keep your deed (which we are), you will have to pay that hefty one-time assessment, unfortunately, but that's the price we all have to pay for the past negligence of the owners. If you amortize that over, say, 4 years, you still have to admit that Sandcastle is a terrific bargain. We have been considering buying an extra week or two for some time, and now it seems to be an even better idea--once they become available, and assuming all goes as Cliff hopes.

12) If you feel that a salesperson from Outfield is trying to scare you or is telling you untruths, tell Cliff directly. He has posted his email address here a number of times. I can tell you from personal experience, he is listening.

13) When the improvements are made, the now-unused inventory is sold, and the affiliations with Festiva and II are established, Cliff thinks that the value of our individual shares will increase substantially. On the other hand, if he were to let the place go on as it has been, then considering the code violations, the sewer issue, and the financial problems, it may be only a matter of time before something drastic happens, and that might include the owners losing everything. 

I think he may well be right. Why do I believe him? Because it all makes sense. It's not in Cliff's interest to get involved in endless legal fights (and he is smart enough that he seems to have all his legal bases well covered), or to have the owners descending on his office with torches and pitchforks. He wants to see the value of the Resort go up, and that works for us owners as well. Yes, he may fail, and we could all get screwed. But if he did nothing, we'd DEFINITELY all get screwed. He is trying to ensure that Sandcastle has a future, and I think his plans are sound. That's why I think his interests and ours are not in conflict.

We need to keep an eye on him, and especially on Outfield Marketing, and let him and each other know when something doesn't smell right. But if we can tone down the rhetoric and the accusations, and concentrate on real and concrete issues, I think it will serve us all well.

Again: I am not Cliff, and I never met him before last Friday. My wife and I are both performing artists and have for over 20 years been on the faculties of several universities in the Boston area. We are not wealthy and the only property we own is our house and two Red weeks at Sandcastle. We want to come here for many more summers to come. 

Thanks for your attention, and feel free to contact me privately if you wish.

Paul


----------



## Fig

ProfPaul said:


> I've been lurking on this thread for several months, and am now going to jump in. I am at this moment at Sandcastles, enjoying my two deeded weeks. If my IP address is suspiciously similar to Cliff Hagberg's, it's because we're on the same wireless router. But please be assured I am not Cliff Hagberg.
> 
> My wife and I have been owners here for seven years, and we love the place. We don't want to see it change, but we understand that change is necessary. Unfortunately there's been a lot of bad information, and bad faith, around that change. But the way we see it, the situation is not nearly as dire as some people paint it, and there is really no need for lawsuits, criminal accusations, or conspiracy theories.
> We agree that Outfield Marketing has been doing some awful things in the name of Sandcastle. But it's very important to understand who the players are, and their relationship to each other--and not to panic.
> 
> We were visited by an Outfield rep last fall, and when we were told we had to sign with him that day or the deal was off, we threw him out of the house.  We since spoke with a couple of other owners (the rep let slip enough information that we were able to find them) who agreed with us that the Outfield/Festiva deal smelled pretty bad. We also spoke with a Festiva rep last week here in P'town, after they promised us a $50 gift card for listening to their spiel, and once again we declined. (We used the $50 at the Stop&Shop and to join TUG.)
> 
> But we complained loud and long enough that we got an audience with Cliff Hagberg, the new owner/manager of the resort, and we got some very good information from him, which I'll share in this post.
> 
> I know many slimy business people--I've worked in the music business for 30 years, and they don't come much slimier. I don't think Cliff fits that description at all. He is smart, and dots all his i's, and of course he is interested in making money--he's been in the timeshare business a long time and it's what he does--but his goals and the goals of the current owners are in fact not in opposition to each other.
> 
> Here's what we found out:
> 
> 1) He and his partners (who include the principals of Outfield Marketing) own 52% of the shares in the resort. Therefore he can pretty much call the shots right now. But his goal is to sell the shares he owns, and therefore relinquish control to an owners' association.
> 
> 2) When he bought the outstanding inventory, there was something like $3 million in unpaid maintenance fees, and the previous owners had made very little effort to collect any of it. He is now working on this and expects to collect about 8 cents on the dollar over the next couple of years. Those delinquent owners whom he cannot settle with he will take legal action against, so the Resort can take possession of their units.
> 
> 3) The Resort needs a lot of work. The previous owners let it go, both physically and financially. There have already been two lawsuits filed against the Resort based on hazardous conditions. That work is going to take a lot of money. The septic tank/sewer issue is going to be very expensive, and is a long way from resolution. if the work isn't done, and the property fails building codes and/or becomes insolvent, everyone--us and Cliff--are screwed. It's happened before not far away or long ago: check out http://www.hotel-online.com/News/PR2005_2nd/Jun05_YarmouthTimeShare.html
> 
> 4) There is going to be an assessment of around $850 (per unit/week) this year. This is expected to be a ONE-TIME fee. Maintenance fees, which went up 25% last year, will go up only about 4-5%, maybe less. If things go as projected, there will be NO further assessments in the foreseeable future, and maintenance fee increases over the next several years will be close to the cost of living index (taking into account the cost of energy, waste removal, staff wages, insurance, etc.).
> 
> 5) His company gets no revenue from sales or trades to Festiva. The current push to sell Festiva points is a way to create a relationship with Outfield Marketing so that when they are ready to sell weeks (as opposed to points), Outfield will be able to do so. It is also a way to give owners who are interested in points programs an opportunity to do so.
> 
> 6) There is no danger that Festiva will become the "owners" of Sandcastle. No matter how many owners trade in for Festiva points, Festiva cannot take control of the Resort or even have a seat on the board of trustees. That's written into their contract.
> 
> 7) He has not been able to sell weeks because of restrictions placed by the mortgage holders. But this is a temporary situation which he expects to have resolved in a matter of weeks, if not days. When he starts selling weeks, the maintenance fees from the new owners will go to the Resort, which will help the financial picture considerably.
> 
> 8) Once he sells off the current inventory, ownership of the Resort will revert back to the owners--that is, us. That is his goal, and how he will make his money. (Winter weeks and dead inventory do not have voting rights, he told an owners' meeting last night, so even if he can't sell that inventory, this scenario will still happen.) We will be able to elect members of the board of trustees, and can have one or more owners on the board.
> 
> 9) Sandcastle owners can still bank their weeks with RCI, just as they always could. They cannot trade them for RCI Points, which is a totally different program, and Sandcastle never belonged to that program. On the other hand, Cliff Hagberg is negotiating with another points provider, International Interval (II) for membership.
> 
> 10) Outfield Marketing has been doing their Sandcastle sales pitches outside of Cliff's supervision. That is now changing. He says he has heard about 40 complaints, many of them similar in nature. Two salesmen (one in P'town and one at his other resort, Southcape, in Mashpee) have been fired this week for misleading customers. He has told us, and the owners' meeting, that he will not tolerate the kind of misleading sales tactics we have been complaining about. He has in the past week brought in a new supervisor and a new trainer, and if he still gets complaints, he says, he will fire them. Timeshare salespeople in general do not have the highest ethical standards, as most of us know, but Cliff needs a sales force to generate the revenue that Sandcastles needs, and Outfield is who he got into bed with. It's in his interest not to let them piss off the owners. He's a little late, but I think his efforts to control them are genuine.
> 
> 11) If you don't want to join the Festiva points program, DON'T!! Don't feel pressured into doing something you don't want to do. Your deed is yours and they can't take it away from you. If you keep your deed (which we are), you will have to pay that hefty one-time assessment, unfortunately, but that's the price we all have to pay for the past negligence of the owners. If you amortize that over, say, 4 years, you still have to admit that Sandcastle is a terrific bargain. We have been considering buying an extra week or two for some time, and now it seems to be an even better idea--once they become available, and assuming all goes as Cliff hopes.
> 
> 12) If you feel that a salesperson from Outfield is trying to scare you or is telling you untruths, tell Cliff directly. He has posted his email address here a number of times. I can tell you from personal experience, he is listening.
> 
> 13) When the improvements are made, the now-unused inventory is sold, and the affiliations with Festiva and II are established, Cliff thinks that the value of our individual shares will increase substantially. On the other hand, if he were to let the place go on as it has been, then considering the code violations, the sewer issue, and the financial problems, it may be only a matter of time before something drastic happens, and that might include the owners losing everything.
> 
> I think he may well be right. Why do I believe him? Because it all makes sense. It's not in Cliff's interest to get involved in endless legal fights (and he is smart enough that he seems to have all his legal bases well covered), or to have the owners descending on his office with torches and pitchforks. He wants to see the value of the Resort go up, and that works for us owners as well. Yes, he may fail, and we could all get screwed. But if he did nothing, we'd DEFINITELY all get screwed. He is trying to ensure that Sandcastle has a future, and I think his plans are sound. That's why I think his interests and ours are not in conflict.
> 
> We need to keep an eye on him, and especially on Outfield Marketing, and let him and each other know when something doesn't smell right. But if we can tone down the rhetoric and the accusations, and concentrate on real and concrete issues, I think it will serve us all well.
> 
> Again: I am not Cliff, and I never met him before last Friday. My wife and I are both performing artists and have for over 20 years been on the faculties of several universities in the Boston area. We are not wealthy and the only property we own is our house and two Red weeks at Sandcastle. We want to come here for many more summers to come.
> 
> Thanks for your attention, and feel free to contact me privately if you wish.
> 
> Paul



Just when I think this can't get anymore bizzare...well, it does. I am on someone else's wireless router as I post this....I am sitting in her living room...she owns the router and like most wireless routers it has a range of several feet. Therefore, you must be pretty darned close to Cliff if you are on the same wireless router...are you in his office?


----------



## Carolinian

Care to post that contract with Festiva so that owners can see what it ACTUALLY says, Paul?  Festiva can vote its weeks in conjunction with NEVS to keep NEVS perpetually in management or even probably itself.  Ownership and control are two different things.

The issue about not being able to sell weeks under the mortgage sounds bonus.  It is almost universal in such situation that when a portion of a property such as a lot in a subdivision or a timeshare week that is subject to an overall developer mortgage, when the week or lot is sold, the mortgage holder signs the deed releasing that lot or week from the mortgage in return for being paid part of the sales price.  That practice is extremely common in the real estate development business, and I would be highly surprised if the ability to do that has not existed all along.  If that very common arrangement was not part of the deal, it would raise a huge red flag about Hagberg's competence.

Hagberg says Outfield is giving him and his company no compensation for leting them sell points conversions.  Are they paying anything to the HOA?  The use of facilities and valuable membership lists are corporate assets that Hagberg is apparently improperly giving away free to his partners.  The HOA should be receiving appropriate compensation.  And the whole thing about ''creating a relationship'' with the Outfield sharks is just pure baloney.

You might ask Hagberg how he claims to own 52%.  Is he including the maintenance weeks, or weeks that he is not paying maintenance fees on? If so, those claims are bogus.  

The resorts financial problems seem to stem from having a series of DEADBEAT developers who have not been paying maintenance fees on the weeks they own.  If those maintenance fees were paid, there would probably be no need for a special assessment.


----------



## ProfPaul

Fig said:


> Just when I think this can't get anymore bizzare...well, it does. I am on someone else's wireless router as I post this....I am sitting in her living room...she owns the router and like most wireless routers it has a range of several feet. Therefore, you must be pretty darned close to Cliff if you are on the same wireless router...are you in his office?



Nothing bizarre about this. Sandcastle has several wireless routers which I assume (I have not seen their network up close but I do know a bit about this) are connected to a central router, which presents a single IP address to the Comcast network. Therefore anyone in this building will look like they have the same IP address to anyone else outside the building. My room is about 200 feet from Cliff's office.

Paul


----------



## Fig

ProfPaul said:


> Nothing bizarre about this. Sandcastle has several wireless routers which I assume (I have not seen their network up close but I do know a bit about this) are connected to a central router, which presents a single IP address to the Comcast network. Therefore anyone in this building will look like they have the same IP address to anyone else outside the building. My room is about 200 feet from Cliff's office.
> 
> Paul



So, you are spending your vacation going into detail about Sandcastle and why Cliff is such a nice guy and how all is just fine. Okey dokey. If you vacation on the cape and have been following this thread than you'll know that most of the inventory Cliff is said to have has is said to be off-season and if you follow eBay you'll see that summer deeded weeks are bringing a few bucks, never mind the several thousand Cliff would need to make on the off-season weeks just to break even. Prof...it just don't add up.


----------



## ProfPaul

Fig said:


> So, you are spending your vacation going into detail about Sandcastle and why Cliff is such a nice guy and how all is just fine. Okey dokey. If you vacation on the cape and have been following this thread than you'll know that most of the inventory Cliff is said to have has is said to be off-season and if you follow eBay you'll see that summer deeded weeks are bringing a few bucks, never mind the several thousand Cliff would need to make on the off-season weeks just to break even. Prof...it just don't add up.



We've had a wonderful 10 days here so far, and today it's pouring rain, so I have time to waste in front of the computer. When you've got FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) ruling the kingdom, people get scared. Whoever was selling their week on eBay I would imagine was trying to get out of next year's assessment and maintenance fees, which is perfectly understandable. We may see more of these in the near future, but I don't think it will last long. As for how Cliff makes his money, it's not just by selling off inventory, it's also by collecting future maintenance fees. The picture is a bit more complex than you paint.

Paul


----------



## tombo

ProfPaul said:


> I've been lurking on this thread for several months, and am now going to jump in. I am at this moment at Sandcastles, enjoying my two deeded weeks. If my IP address is suspiciously similar to Cliff Hagberg's, it's because we're on the same wireless router. But please be assured I am not Cliff Hagberg.



It is very hard to feel assured since the first post you make after months of perusing the site is from the same IP address as Cliff uses. Did you never think about posting from home during all of these months you watched?



ProfPaul said:


> But the way we see it, the situation is not nearly as dire as some people paint it, and there is really no need for lawsuits, criminal accusations, or conspiracy theories.



Why would there be no need for lawsuits? Cliff is controlling the resort with no owner input. Cliff is assessing with no owner input.  Cliff has appointed trustees to the board who are Outfield employees/owners with no owner input. Cliff refuses to give the owners the list of owners at the resort as is rquired by law. What choice do owners have other than to take it to court? Why wouldn't you join the other owners to protect your rights at this resort?




ProfPaul said:


> We agree that Outfield Marketing has been doing some awful things in the name of Sandcastle. But it's very important to understand who the players are, and their relationship to each other--and not to panic.



They are doing awful things but no reason to worry? Is it better to wait until Festiva owns more and more weeks and finally owns the majority of the resort? What is the relationship they have which is not worth worrying about?



ProfPaul said:


> We were visited by an Outfield rep last fall, and when we were told we had to sign with him that day or the deal was off, we threw him out of the house.  We since spoke with a couple of other owners (the rep let slip enough information that we were able to find them) who agreed with us that the Outfield/Festiva deal smelled pretty bad. We also spoke with a Festiva rep last week here in P'town, after they promised us a $50 gift card for listening to their spiel, and once again we declined. (We used the $50 at the Stop&Shop and to join TUG.)



You dislike Outfield's sales tactics but you don't feel that there is need to stop them using the AG or legal action? You are the first person that visited with outfield where the rep ever mentioned other owners names. That is curious.TUG doesn't cost nearly $50 by the way, but it is nice that you joined TUG.



ProfPaul said:


> I know many slimy business people--I've worked in the music business for 30 years, and they don't come much slimier. I don't think Cliff fits that description at all. He is smart, and dots all his i's, and of course he is interested in making money--he's been in the timeshare business a long time and it's what he does--but his goals and the goals of the current owners are in fact not in opposition to each other.



If you don't think Cliff is slimy, you must love Bernie Madoff. Cliff has infiltrated owners groups using fake names on several occassions. He then denied it was him until he was caught. He has lied often and been caught in many lies. His goals are opposite of all timeshare owners. Cliff is as slimy as any used car salesman anywhere.



ProfPaul said:


> 2) When he bought the outstanding inventory, there was something like $3 million in unpaid maintenance fees, and the previous owners had made very little effort to collect any of it. He is now working on this and expects to collect about 8 cents on the dollar over the next couple of years. Those delinquent owners whom he cannot settle with he will take legal action against, so the Resort can take possession of their units.



So he is suing people to get money for himself (he gets a salary from the resorts). He is not worried about the fact that he himself is paying nothing for upgrades or maintenance on the 52% he allegedly owns. There is a lot of money the resort needs to collect, they just need to collect it from Cliff.



ProfPaul said:


> 3) The Resort needs a lot of work. The previous owners let it go, both physically and financially. There have already been two lawsuits filed against the Resort based on hazardous conditions. That work is going to take a lot of money. The septic tank/sewer issue is going to be very expensive, and is a long way from resolution. if the work isn't done, and the property fails building codes and/or becomes insolvent, everyone--us and Cliff--are screwed.l[/url]



Let the owners vote on what needs to be fixed, how much it will cost, and how much each person will be assessed. Let the mgt staff get 3 closed bids to get cheap renovations done rather than the trustees just hiring someone who could be friends or relatives.



ProfPaul said:


> 4) There is going to be an assessment of around $850 (per unit/week) this year. This is expected to be a ONE-TIME fee. Maintenance fees, which went up 25% last year, will go up only about 4-5%, maybe less. If things go as projected, there will be NO further assessments in the foreseeable future, and maintenance fee increases over the next several years will be close to the cost of living index (taking into account the cost of energy, waste removal, staff wages, insurance, etc.).



Says who? Cliff? Cliff has proven that his word is no good. If he promises that this is a one time assessment, don't believe it.I like the NO in caps like a sales presentation.



ProfPaul said:


> 5) His company gets no revenue from sales or trades to Festiva. The current push to sell Festiva points is a way to create a relationship with Outfield Marketing so that when they are ready to sell weeks (as opposed to points), Outfield will be able to do so. It is also a way to give owners who are interested in points programs an opportunity to do so.



Really? Cliff has said forever that Outfield was selling weeks all along. Now he admits that they are just selling points after being caught in yet another lie. This is not anything that is being done for the owners, this is for the profit of NEVMS, Festiva,Cliff, and Outfield. Cliff is getting something out of this or Festiva/outfield wouldn't be involved.



ProfPaul said:


> 6) There is no danger that Festiva will become the "owners" of Sandcastle. No matter how many owners trade in for Festiva points, Festiva cannot take control of the Resort or even have a seat on the board of trustees. That's written into their contract.



If Festiva owns enough weeks, they will own the resort. As you said Cliff can do what he wants with 52%. When Festiva owns enough they too will do as they please. Festiva is not in this for anything less than full control of both resorts.



ProfPaul said:


> 7) He has not been able to sell weeks because of restrictions placed by the mortgage holders. But this is a temporary situation which he expects to have resolved in a matter of weeks, if not days. When he starts selling weeks, the maintenance fees from the new owners will go to the Resort, which will help the financial picture considerably.



Wow, Cliff is telling you all sorts of things he has never said here before. I guess he has had a while to think a new strategy up. Before he was selling weeks left and right. Every time someone said that he wouldn't be able to sell those winter weeks he would talk about how he had already sold several that week for big bucks. Was he lying then, or is he lying now saying that he cant't sell weeks because of the mtge holders?



ProfPaul said:


> 8) Once he sells off the current inventory, ownership of the Resort will revert back to the owners--that is, us. That is his goal, and how he will make his money. (Winter weeks and dead inventory do not have voting rights, he told an owners' meeting last night, so even if he can't sell that inventory, this scenario will still happen.) We will be able to elect members of the board of trustees, and can have one or more owners on the board.



And everyone should trust honest Cliff to do what he says. He has been so honest and upfront to date. He will have 3 trustees and he will let owners have an owner on the board that he picks. I am not a mathematician, but 3 votes beats one vote every time.



ProfPaul said:


> 10) Outfield Marketing has been doing their Sandcastle sales pitches outside of Cliff's supervision. That is now changing. He says he has heard about 40 complaints, many of them similar in nature. Two salesmen (one in P'town and one at his other resort, Southcape, in Mashpee) have been fired this week for misleading customers. He has told us, and the owners' meeting, that he will not tolerate the kind of misleading sales tactics we have been complaining about. He has in the past week brought in a new supervisor and a new trainer, and if he still gets complaints, he says, he will fire them.



When is he firing the two trustess who have been named as two of the Outfield salesman using the false sales pitches? Lamantia has been doing it since he was in Missouri where Festiva settled. Cliff doesn't get outraged and fire him, Cliff makes him a partner in NEVMS and a trustee at the resort. Cliff has got Outfield right where he wants them, fleecing unsuspecting owners. 

When is Cliff going to send a newsletter to all the owners telling them that Outfield has been using false claims to sell weeks? Another resort did exactly that same thing to protect owners. I am sure that Cliff's warning is in the mail.



ProfPaul said:


> 11) If you don't want to join the Festiva points program, DON'T!! Don't feel pressured into doing something you don't want to do. Your deed is yours and they can't take it away from you. If you keep your deed (which we are), you will have to pay that hefty one-time assessment, unfortunately, but that's the price we all have to pay for the past negligence of the owners. If you amortize that over, say, 4 years, you still have to admit that Sandcastle is a terrific bargain. We have been considering buying an extra week or two for some time, and now it seems to be an even better idea--once they become available, and assuming all goes as Cliff hopes.



If people were told the truth, they wouldn't join Festiva. What is happening is the lies about huge assessments for those who don't convert and the threat of not being able to use their week in the future scares people into Festiva. The lies told by Outfield are robbing owners of their weeks and Outfield must be stopped like they were in Missouri by the Attorney General.

I am sure that this is the best time ever to buy more weeks. Festiva and Outfield are gaining control of the resort. Cliff is lying to owners about everything. The mf's jumed up a lot. There is at least one assessment due.Owners are mobilizing to sue. I can see how there would never be a better time to buy.



ProfPaul said:


> 12) If you feel that a salesperson from Outfield is trying to scare you or is telling you untruths, tell Cliff directly. He has posted his email address here a number of times. I can tell you from personal experience, he is listening.



I know that he is listening. I feel sure that he is responding as we speak. I can tell you from personal experience that Cliff is lying more often than not if his lips are moving or if his fingers are typing. 



ProfPaul said:


> 13) When the improvements are made, the now-unused inventory is sold, and the affiliations with Festiva and II are established, Cliff thinks that the value of our individual shares will increase substantially. On the other hand, if he were to let the place go on as it has been, then considering the code violations, the sewer issue, and the financial problems, it may be only a matter of time before something drastic happens, and that might include the owners losing everything.



A week there will not increase in value. No weeks anywhere are increasing in value. You are correct that something drastic has happened, Cliff Outfield, and Festiva have started taking over the resort. That is tragic unless stopped.



ProfPaul said:


> I think he may well be right. Why do I believe him? Because it all makes sense. It's not in Cliff's interest to get involved in endless legal fights (and he is smart enough that he seems to have all his legal bases well covered), or to have the owners descending on his office with torches and pitchforks. He wants to see the value of the Resort go up, and that works for us owners as well. Yes, he may fail, and we could all get screwed. But if he did nothing, we'd DEFINITELY all get screwed. He is trying to ensure that Sandcastle has a future, and I think his plans are sound. That's why I think his interests and ours are not in conflict.



 After reading this thread and seeing all of the lies Cliff has been caught in, why would anyone believe him??? Cliff is not to be believed!! Cliff doesn't want to get in a legal fight because Cliff knows that he will probably lose. You sure do have a high opinion of Cliff. For months owners and non owners have been catching Cliff in lies. Now suddenly he crosses his t's and dots his I's. His interests are in conflict with all owners. If Cliff doesn't fail you will all be screwed.



ProfPaul said:


> We need to keep an eye on him, and especially on Outfield Marketing, and let him and each other know when something doesn't smell right. But if we can tone down the rhetoric and the accusations, and concentrate on real and concrete issues, I think it will serve us all well.



You seem to have ignored all of the real issues and instead posted Cliff's sales pitches in 13 nicely composed segements. There is the occasional we need to watch him which is followed by he is working for us. Cliff has been told in no uncertain terms here and other places that nothing smells right.



ProfPaul said:


> Again: I am not Cliff, and I never met him before last Friday. My wife and I are both performing artists and have for over 20 years been on the faculties of several universities in the Boston area. We are not wealthy and the only property we own is our house and two Red weeks at Sandcastle. We want to come here for many more summers to come.



 You are both performing artists. Do you play the guitar? Are you actors? 



ProfPaul said:


> Thanks for your attention, and feel free to contact me privately if you wish.
> 
> Paul


----------



## mweinberg

ProfPaul said:


> I've been lurking on this thread for several months, and am now going to jump in. I am at this moment at Sandcastles, enjoying my two deeded weeks. If my IP address is suspiciously similar to Cliff Hagberg's, it's because we're on the same wireless router. But please be assured I am not Cliff Hagberg.
> 
> My wife and I have been owners here for seven years, and we love the place. We don't want to see it change, but we understand that change is necessary. Unfortunately there's been a lot of bad information, and bad faith, around that change. But the way we see it, the situation is not nearly as dire as some people paint it, and there is really no need for lawsuits, criminal accusations, or conspiracy theories.
> We agree that Outfield Marketing has been doing some awful things in the name of Sandcastle. But it's very important to understand who the players are, and their relationship to each other--and not to panic.
> 
> We were visited by an Outfield rep last fall, and when we were told we had to sign with him that day or the deal was off, we threw him out of the house.  We since spoke with a couple of other owners (the rep let slip enough information that we were able to find them) who agreed with us that the Outfield/Festiva deal smelled pretty bad. We also spoke with a Festiva rep last week here in P'town, after they promised us a $50 gift card for listening to their spiel, and once again we declined. (We used the $50 at the Stop&Shop and to join TUG.)
> 
> But we complained loud and long enough that we got an audience with Cliff Hagberg, the new owner/manager of the resort, and we got some very good information from him, which I'll share in this post.
> 
> I know many slimy business people--I've worked in the music business for 30 years, and they don't come much slimier. I don't think Cliff fits that description at all. He is smart, and dots all his i's, and of course he is interested in making money--he's been in the timeshare business a long time and it's what he does--but his goals and the goals of the current owners are in fact not in opposition to each other.
> 
> Here's what we found out:
> 
> 1) He and his partners (who include the principals of Outfield Marketing) own 52% of the shares in the resort. Therefore he can pretty much call the shots right now. But his goal is to sell the shares he owns, and therefore relinquish control to an owners' association.
> 
> 2) When he bought the outstanding inventory, there was something like $3 million in unpaid maintenance fees, and the previous owners had made very little effort to collect any of it. He is now working on this and expects to collect about 8 cents on the dollar over the next couple of years. Those delinquent owners whom he cannot settle with he will take legal action against, so the Resort can take possession of their units.
> 
> 3) The Resort needs a lot of work. The previous owners let it go, both physically and financially. There have already been two lawsuits filed against the Resort based on hazardous conditions. That work is going to take a lot of money. The septic tank/sewer issue is going to be very expensive, and is a long way from resolution. if the work isn't done, and the property fails building codes and/or becomes insolvent, everyone--us and Cliff--are screwed. It's happened before not far away or long ago: check out http://www.hotel-online.com/News/PR2005_2nd/Jun05_YarmouthTimeShare.html
> 
> 4) There is going to be an assessment of around $850 (per unit/week) this year. This is expected to be a ONE-TIME fee. Maintenance fees, which went up 25% last year, will go up only about 4-5%, maybe less. If things go as projected, there will be NO further assessments in the foreseeable future, and maintenance fee increases over the next several years will be close to the cost of living index (taking into account the cost of energy, waste removal, staff wages, insurance, etc.).
> 
> 5) His company gets no revenue from sales or trades to Festiva. The current push to sell Festiva points is a way to create a relationship with Outfield Marketing so that when they are ready to sell weeks (as opposed to points), Outfield will be able to do so. It is also a way to give owners who are interested in points programs an opportunity to do so.
> 
> 6) There is no danger that Festiva will become the "owners" of Sandcastle. No matter how many owners trade in for Festiva points, Festiva cannot take control of the Resort or even have a seat on the board of trustees. That's written into their contract.
> 
> 7) He has not been able to sell weeks because of restrictions placed by the mortgage holders. But this is a temporary situation which he expects to have resolved in a matter of weeks, if not days. When he starts selling weeks, the maintenance fees from the new owners will go to the Resort, which will help the financial picture considerably.
> 
> 8) Once he sells off the current inventory, ownership of the Resort will revert back to the owners--that is, us. That is his goal, and how he will make his money. (Winter weeks and dead inventory do not have voting rights, he told an owners' meeting last night, so even if he can't sell that inventory, this scenario will still happen.) We will be able to elect members of the board of trustees, and can have one or more owners on the board.
> 
> 9) Sandcastle owners can still bank their weeks with RCI, just as they always could. They cannot trade them for RCI Points, which is a totally different program, and Sandcastle never belonged to that program. On the other hand, Cliff Hagberg is negotiating with another points provider, International Interval (II) for membership.
> 
> 10) Outfield Marketing has been doing their Sandcastle sales pitches outside of Cliff's supervision. That is now changing. He says he has heard about 40 complaints, many of them similar in nature. Two salesmen (one in P'town and one at his other resort, Southcape, in Mashpee) have been fired this week for misleading customers. He has told us, and the owners' meeting, that he will not tolerate the kind of misleading sales tactics we have been complaining about. He has in the past week brought in a new supervisor and a new trainer, and if he still gets complaints, he says, he will fire them. Timeshare salespeople in general do not have the highest ethical standards, as most of us know, but Cliff needs a sales force to generate the revenue that Sandcastles needs, and Outfield is who he got into bed with. It's in his interest not to let them piss off the owners. He's a little late, but I think his efforts to control them are genuine.
> 
> 11) If you don't want to join the Festiva points program, DON'T!! Don't feel pressured into doing something you don't want to do. Your deed is yours and they can't take it away from you. If you keep your deed (which we are), you will have to pay that hefty one-time assessment, unfortunately, but that's the price we all have to pay for the past negligence of the owners. If you amortize that over, say, 4 years, you still have to admit that Sandcastle is a terrific bargain. We have been considering buying an extra week or two for some time, and now it seems to be an even better idea--once they become available, and assuming all goes as Cliff hopes.
> 
> 12) If you feel that a salesperson from Outfield is trying to scare you or is telling you untruths, tell Cliff directly. He has posted his email address here a number of times. I can tell you from personal experience, he is listening.
> 
> 13) When the improvements are made, the now-unused inventory is sold, and the affiliations with Festiva and II are established, Cliff thinks that the value of our individual shares will increase substantially. On the other hand, if he were to let the place go on as it has been, then considering the code violations, the sewer issue, and the financial problems, it may be only a matter of time before something drastic happens, and that might include the owners losing everything.
> 
> I think he may well be right. Why do I believe him? Because it all makes sense. It's not in Cliff's interest to get involved in endless legal fights (and he is smart enough that he seems to have all his legal bases well covered), or to have the owners descending on his office with torches and pitchforks. He wants to see the value of the Resort go up, and that works for us owners as well. Yes, he may fail, and we could all get screwed. But if he did nothing, we'd DEFINITELY all get screwed. He is trying to ensure that Sandcastle has a future, and I think his plans are sound. That's why I think his interests and ours are not in conflict.
> 
> We need to keep an eye on him, and especially on Outfield Marketing, and let him and each other know when something doesn't smell right. But if we can tone down the rhetoric and the accusations, and concentrate on real and concrete issues, I think it will serve us all well.
> 
> Again: I am not Cliff, and I never met him before last Friday. My wife and I are both performing artists and have for over 20 years been on the faculties of several universities in the Boston area. We are not wealthy and the only property we own is our house and two Red weeks at Sandcastle. We want to come here for many more summers to come.
> 
> Thanks for your attention, and feel free to contact me privately if you wish.
> 
> Paul



ProfPaul,

I too met with Cliff Hagberg while I was at the Sandcastle, and I agree that he is both charming and convincing.  I also agree that the Sandcastle needs a lot of work, and that doing the work will be helpful to deeded owners.  However, I'm not sure I agree with your assessment that "his goals and the goals of the current owners are not in opposition."  And I've learned enough since my stay at the Sandcastle that I'm not sure I believe everything that I was told.

Some of what I have learned is addressed in other postings, both from me and from others.  There are, however, a few issues in your posting that I'd like to address:

1.  You say that the goal of Cliff and his business partners, Outfield Marketing, are trying to sell their shares and relinquish control.  The Outfield rep that I met with told me that (1) no one is interested in buying weeks anymore, (2) RCI has no interest in the Sandcastle, and (3) the best thing that could happen for me, as an owner, would be for "a hurricane to flatten this place."  I'm no salesman, but I'm pretty sure that none of these lines will be effective in selling inventory.

5.  You say that Cliff's company gets no revenue from sales or trades to Festiva.  Outfield is hired by Festiva to sell their vacation club.  I doubt that Outfield is doing this for free, so Outfield, who owns a controlling interest in Cliff's company, New England Vacation Services, is almost certainly receiving revenue from these sales.  This is also what will create an apparent conflict of interest when and if Outfield begins to market deeded weeks.  How can they be expected to do that when they are hired to do something totally different?

6. You say that Festiva can never take control of the resort and can never even hold a seat on the board because of some contract.  I don't know what contract Cliff is referring to, but Article 1 of Festiva's rules and regulations, as posted on their website, clearly states that "an existing owner assigns to a trustee the beneficial use rights that appertain to his or her timeshare interest . . . including but not limited to voting rights in the applicable component site owners association."  To me, this clearly sounds like they can and will have control over the Sandcastle.  In addition, those voting rights, like Cliff's voting rights now, seem to be exempt from any assessments or fees.

9. Yes, as you state, Sandcastle owners can still continue to trade through the RCI weeks program.  However, every time a deed is surrendered to Festiva, there is one less unit for RCI members to trade into, which will make it increasingly difficult for us to trade our weeks and stay elsewhere.

10.  Cliff told me also that one of the Outfield reps I had spoken with had been fired.  However, when I called the Sandcastle the following week, I was told that they were both available to take my call.  If anyone at the Sandcastle was fired, I'm sure it was for not selling enough Festiva memberships, not for dishonesty and high pressure tactics, both of which seem to be Outfield's standard operating procedure, not just at the Sandcastle, but where ever they sell Festiva memberships.  Just look up complaints against them on the internet.

I certainly hope that, in the long run, your assessment turns out to be correct.  I think, though, that it's going to turn out that Cliff is telling owners what we want to hear to take some of the heat off his business partners.  Otherwise, I think we'd be seeing a good deal more transparency on Cliff's part.  

Michael


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## tombo

I am feeling like Cliff is among us again. As I said every now and then I just tell him hello in case he is here among us.

Hi Cliffvivmasscapestein etc. You must feel that everyone but you is stupid. Unlike the uneducated, unsuspecting people you trick into buying high dollar timeshares, we here on TUG are educated about the industry and hard to fool. Keep trying though.


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## ProfPaul

Michael, 

Interesting points, and I appreciate the thoughtful response. I don't know how to respond to some of your points, but perhaps others do (without flaming). I will respond to a few:



mweinberg said:


> 1.  You say that the goal of Cliff and his business partners, Outfield Marketing, are trying to sell their shares and relinquish control.  The Outfield rep that I met with told me that (1) no one is interested in buying weeks anymore, (2) RCI has no interest in the Sandcastle, and (3) the best thing that could happen for me, as an owner, would be for "a hurricane to flatten this place."  I'm no salesman, but I'm pretty sure that none of these lines will be effective in selling inventory.
> 
> 5.  You say that Cliff's company gets no revenue from sales or trades to Festiva.  Outfield is hired by Festiva to sell their vacation club.  I doubt that Outfield is doing this for free, so Outfield, who owns a controlling interest in Cliff's company, New England Vacation Services, is almost certainly receiving revenue from these sales.  This is also what will create an apparent conflict of interest when and if Outfield begins to market deeded weeks.  How can they be expected to do that when they are hired to do something totally different?
> 
> 6. You say that Festiva can never take control of the resort and can never even hold a seat on the board because of some contract.  I don't know what contract Cliff is referring to, but Article 1 of Festiva's rules and regulations, as posted on their website, clearly states that "an existing owner assigns to a trustee the beneficial use rights that appertain to his or her timeshare interest . . . including but not limited to voting rights in the applicable component site owners association."  To me, this clearly sounds like they can and will have control over the Sandcastle.  In addition, those voting rights, like Cliff's voting rights now, seem to be exempt from any assessments or fees.



I would take anything said to me by an Outfield rep with a huge grain, nay, boulder of salt. Their philosophy seems to be to say whatever they can think of to sell whatever it is they're selling. As my post said, they are at present not allowed to sell weeks, but plan/hope to start very soon. When they start selling weeks, I'm sure that their tactics will change completely.

There may seem to be conflicts of interest here, but I would bet that from a legal standpoint, there are none. Maybe I'm overestimating him, but I don't think Cliff would leave himself vulnerable that way.

The agreement that prevents Festiva from getting a controlling voting bloc was described to me by Cliff, who told me it was a confidential document not available to owners. Is he lying to me? Perhaps. But again, one must ask, why would he bother?

Yes, maybe he's the biggest, slickest, most convincing bucket of slime I've ever met. But I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, since to my ears his plan makes sense for him and for us. But if we can keep the conversation civil, I'm willing to listen and do more research.


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## Classylassy523

*Do you think it was a coincidance?*

Within two days of owners making noises about banding together, collecting funds and hiring an attorney, a happy owner, who has been monitoring this thread for months, comes forth and tells us all about Cliff's virtues and good deeds.  By the time I finished reading his post I was beginning to believe he had been in the presence of a saint.  Then I read it a second time and realized Cliff isn't a saint.  Cliff is a salesman, ProfPaul had fallen for his pitch and Cliff reeled him in, nice and easy.  

One point out of many ... Cliff has been told and has read it here and on the Southcape thread ... *Outfield Marketing salespeople lie, threaten, and spin tales to sell Festiva. * This has been going on for months.  I experienced Outfield Marketing last October, within the month of Cliff's ascension to ruler of the domain at the Sandcastle.  People were complaing then, they complained throughout the following months, and they complained at the annual meeting in April.  Did Cliff boot Outfield out?  Nooooooooooooooo!  How could he?  Outfield Marketing people are on the board of trustees, controlling the board from what I have read.  Cliff will never boot them out of there.  He can't!  He is hooked at the hip with the people.  Cliff has been around this business for many years ... claims to be the best timeshare seller in the country ... he had to have known about Outfield's reputation and tactics, and he still hooked up with them.  

You can extoll the virtues of Cliff Hagberg to others, but don't waste your breath or time on me.  I sit here, poised with pen in hand over my checkbook, ready to write a check to hire a lawyer to deal with the likes of Cliff Hagberg, Outfield Marketing and Festiva Resorts.


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## Carolinian

That law would make that document availible to owners on a proper request.  This document clearly does not exist.





ProfPaul said:


> Michael,
> 
> Interesting points, and I appreciate the thoughtful response. I don't know how to respond to some of your points, but perhaps others do (without flaming). I will respond to a few:
> 
> There is an old saying that ''if you lie down with dogs you get fleas''.  What do you think of someone who knowingly associates himself in business with the likes of Outfield?  That tells you all you need to know about Cliff's integrity or lack thereof.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The agreement that prevents Festiva from getting a controlling voting bloc was described to me by Cliff, who told me it was a confidential document not available to owners. Is he lying to me? Perhaps. But again, one must ask, why would he bother?
> 
> Yes, maybe he's the biggest, slickest, most convincing bucket of slime I've ever met. But I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, since to my ears his plan makes sense for him and for us. But if we can keep the conversation civil, I'm willing to listen and do more research.


----------



## ecwinch

ProfPaul said:


> Michael,
> 
> There may seem to be conflicts of interest here, but I would bet that from a legal standpoint, there are none. Maybe I'm overestimating him, but I don't think Cliff would leave himself vulnerable that way.
> 
> *The agreement that prevents Festiva from getting a controlling voting bloc was described to me by Cliff,* who told me it was a confidential document not available to owners. Is he lying to me? Perhaps. But again, one must ask, why would he bother?
> 
> Yes, maybe he's the biggest, slickest, most convincing bucket of slime I've ever met. But I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, since to my ears his plan makes sense for him and for us. But if we can keep the conversation civil, I'm willing to listen and do more research.




Actually FestivaRep made the same statement a long time ago. Sure they both could be false statements. I always think people like Cliff have an element of truth in statements they make, so I tend to accept this as true.

But I do not think that changes the issue here.  If Festiva does not obtain voting control of the deeded week, who does? 

Does the voting control of the deeded week remain with NEVS, and that is the reason the document is confidential?

And ProfPaul, consider this fact. If Cliff is such a smart guy with a plan, do you think he entered into this situation without a full understanding of the facts? Do you think he failed to perform due diligence on the deal before making a 1mil+ investment? Do you think that Outfield would invest in this business deal without knowing exactly how they will make their money back? Do you hold Cliff accountable for getting in bed with a organization that operates like Outfield does?

And to the extent that they make the same investment decision twice. You invest in both Sandcastle and Southscape. And both have very similar backgrounds - resorts where the previous developer neglected their responsibilities, the resort is developer controlled, and you can buy full control of the resort. Why would you take those actions twice? Out of some deep desire to do good and help the owners?

You are painting this picture of Cliff in the role of the white knight that is going to save the day. Stop and ask yourself what the White Knight is going to get out of the deal. And the guys who lent him his horse and shiny armor.

It is easy to play the role of hero when you create a crisis to solve.


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## JackB62

*Legal Action*

Thanks for getting on board already, Classylassy.

We have been organizing and will have legal news soon.

We may likely combine the Sandcastle and Southcape resorts in our action as we are facing the same legal issues by the same rogue management.

Although the Master Deed and documents may not be exactly the same at both resorts, the Mass. Condominium law will apply regardless.


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## tombo

ProfPaul said:


> There may seem to be conflicts of interest here, but I would bet that from a legal standpoint, there are none. Maybe I'm overestimating him, but I don't think Cliff would leave himself vulnerable that way..



We will see when it goes to court. It will go to court or be settled, it has gone too far for the owners to turn back and too many people know too much. Cliff is so arrogant that he believes that he is safe, but he wouldn't keep posting all the fake posts if he actually felt so sure that he has done nothing wrong. I think that he is sweating going to court, and it shows from his desperate acts on this forum.



ProfPaul said:


> The agreement that prevents Festiva from getting a controlling voting bloc was described to me by Cliff, who told me it was a confidential document not available to owners. Is he lying to me? Perhaps. But again, one must ask, why would he BOTHER?.



From what I have seen Cliff will climb a tree to tell a lie when it is easier to stand on the ground and tell the truth. Now for the first time Cliff has a secret document saying that Festiva can't get controlling vote, he can't show it to owners, owners just need to trust him. Give me a break.

Why would Cliff BOTHER inventing more and more fake owners to post positive things about him, his company, and his motives? Cliff thinks Cliff is so smart that he can talk anyone into believing him. Cliff is wrong, we don't believe anything he says.



ProfPaul said:


> Yes, maybe he's the biggest, slickest, most convincing bucket of slime I've ever met. But I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, since to my ears his plan makes sense for him and for us. But if we can keep the conversation civil, I'm willing to listen and do more research.



Why would anyone give him the benefit of the doubt when he has said that Outfield was selling unsold inventory to help the resorts? Then he says Outfield is selling mainly points but some unsold inventory too. Then he says that he is selling a lot of unsold weeks himself. Then he says that Outfield is not selling any weeks, just points. Now he says unsold inventory can't be sold because of the mtge holder. Please read this whole thread back from the beginning to see how many times he has changed his story when confronted with facts.

Why would anyone give a guy the benefit of a doubt after he was questioned about making up fake names to infiltrate our group (and other groups) while posting propaganda making himself and his companies look good, and his answer was vehement denials that he posted any of the fake posts. He flat out lied!! Why should anything he says be given any credence when he posts that he doesn't have to hide behind fake names at the same time as he is posting under fake names? For all we know he is posting under a fake name right now!!! 

It is easy to see that what I say is true using the things Cliff himself has typed on these threads. If you can't find the specific posts where he tells all the lies and contradictions, someone here will list them for you. It won't take much "research" to find out for sure that he is not a man to be believed or trusted.


----------



## JackB62

*ProfPaul*

You have to watch your back a little better.

Like you, I want to use my week at Southcape for a long time to come. In my mind, the only way to do that is wrest control from someone who has his hand in my back pocket.

There has been complete violation of Mass. Condominium and Timeshare law.

ProfPaul, you're like the character in the haunted house movie who goes downstairs without turning the light switch on first. The rest of us watch and say, "Look out!"


----------



## Classylassy523

13) *When the improvements are made, the now-unused inventory is sold, and **the affiliations with Festiva and II are established*, Cliff thinks that the value of our individual shares will increase substantially. On the other hand, if he were to let the place go on as it has been, then considering the code violations, the sewer issue, and the financial problems, it may be only a matter of time before something drastic happens, and that might include the owners losing everything. 

This sentence interests me and raises questions.  When I met with the Outfield Marketing person last October he told me that Festiva was _considering_ the Sandcastle as part of their organization.  No decision had been made and they (Festiva) were going to wait until all the improvements and repairs were completed, about a year or so.  At that time they (Festiva) would come back and inspect the resort and make a decision as to whether it (Sandcastle) would be included in the Festiva roster of world class resorts.

From what ProfPaul wrote it sounds like the relationship has not been established.  If this is true then I am wondering what will become of those units that were turned over to Festiva.  Were they actually turned over or are they in the possession of someone or something else?  I have been poking around in the public records regarding the Sandcastle and I found 6 recorded deed transfers for Festiva, and 5 of them were the Sandcastle.  Now if that is all they have managed to turn over, HOORAY.  But if it isn't, then where are the rest?

The more I read, the more questions I have.  Does anyone know the answers?

Where is Cliff when we need him?  I would email him but he won't answer me after my faux pas of the other evening.


----------



## Sou13

*I promised to return*

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Sou13*
_I've been searching the registry for deeds for timeshares owned by Clifford Hagberg and can't find any for Southcape.  Check for yourselves at https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.HTM?

I'll be back tomorrow.  Gotta go now.​_
I'm back and the only timeshare I found that Cliff Hagberg ever owned at Southcape was bought and resold in 1993 which means that while NEVS may own 550 weeks, Cliff Hagberg isn't paying MFs and SAs on any weeks at Southcape.  He does, however, appear to own a week at Sandcastle.

Isn't the Internet wonderful?


----------



## tombo

Sou13 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sou13*
> _I've been searching the registry for deeds for timeshares owned by Clifford Hagberg and can't find any for Southcape.  Check for yourselves at https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.HTM?
> 
> I'll be back tomorrow.  Gotta go now.​_
> I'm back and the only timeshare I found that Cliff Hagberg ever owned at Southcape was bought and resold in 1993 which means that while NEVS may own 550 weeks, Cliff Hagberg isn't paying MFs and SAs on any weeks at Southcape.  He does, however, appear to own a week at Sandcastle.
> 
> Isn't the Internet wonderful?



The internet is wonderful for everyone but people who have things to hide and lies they don't want exposed.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Any owners wishing to hear directly from me can email me at nevmsllc@gmail.com.  And, ClassyLassy, compared to some others on here, you were mild in your criticism and I would be happy to answer your questions.  I do expect that private communications remain private.

Cliff

Yes, I'm still here and very amused.


----------



## Sou13

*Amused?*

I don't find any of this one bit amusing.  I'm not a cash cow who can come up with even a $400 Special Assessment on top of a $73.88 iincrease in the Maintenance Fee, especially when it's for unnecessary renovations and a new website that no longer contains a link to the Master Deed.


----------



## Classylassy523

NEVMSLLC said:


> Any owners wishing to hear directly from me can email me at nevmsllc@gmail.com.  And, ClassyLassy, compared to some others on here, you were mild in your criticism and I would be happy to answer your questions.  I do expect that private communications remain private.
> 
> Cliff
> 
> Yes, I'm still here and very amused.



Sorry Cliff ... I prefer transparency and would have to share any communications from you with the other people who feel the same way about you, Outfield and Festiva that I do.


----------



## e.bram

A lawsuit might have implications with his mortgage.(probably subprime). Also if he sells a unit he will have to give the procedes($1.00) to the bank and remove the mortgage from that sold unit. (fairly complicated)


----------



## ChrisH

*You gotta be kidding!!!!*

Sorry to be harsh, but it's looks like you've been taken

Any pressure sales tactics, misrepresentation of the facts or attempts to sell by fraud or deceipt are AGAINST the MASS GENERAL LAWS.  

Therefore if Outfield Marketing has been using these practices for months with Octopersona's (NEVMS LLC, vivmarch, massman, capeguitarguy, etc.s) knowledge and you experienced it why do you not think it should be addressed.  

That's like saying 'My house was robbed by so and so, but then I met this guy xxxxx (total stranger) who seemed nice and told me to do nothing and he (total stranger - who would possibly benefit from my non-action) would take care of it,  so I'll do nothing.' 

These below are Verbatim - even the mistakes.


*Festiva Resorts Adventure Club                                                                                p 1
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Public Offering Statement*
1.*Names and Principal Addresses of Developer and Seller: Location of Timeshare Properties*

The Developer *of the Festiva Adventure Club (the ‘Club) is Festiva Development Group, LLC ( “Festiva” or the “Developer”)*, a Nevada limited liability company with a principal address of One Vance Group Road, Asheville, North Carolina 28805

*The Seller of Club Memberships in Massachusetts is New England Vacation Services, LLC (“NEVS”)*, a Massachusetts limited liability company with a principal address of 135 E. Hickory, Denton, Texas 76201.  Pursuant to and Affiliation Agreement between Festiva and NEVS, NEVS has prepared this Public Offering Statement, based upon information provided to it by Festiva, and is offering Club Memberships (“memberships”) for sale in Massachusetts for its own account.


                                                                                                        from p 6

V.  Managing Entity (ies)

The operation of the Club is the responsibility of the Association, which is a South Carolina non-profit, non-stock corporation.  The Members of the Association consist of all owners of Points, including the Developer, which is deemed to be the owner of all unpaid Points.  The location of the Associations principal place of business is One Vance Gap Road, Asheville, North Carolina 28805.  *Each Member*, other than the Developer, will be a Class A Member of the Association and is *entitled to cast one (1) vote for each Point* that he or she owns.  The *Developer *(or any Appointee) is a Class B Member of the Association and is* entitled to cast three (3) votes for each Point* that the Developer owns.  The Class B Membership will be converted to Class A Membership as of the first of July 1 of any year on which more than ninety percent (90%) of the Total Points in the Club have been sold to Members other than the Developer.  Further, for as long as the Developer or any Appointee holds a Membership or a debt secured by a Security Interest in a Membership, the Developer is entitles to appoint at least one member of the Association’s Board.

The *Developer currently controls the Association*, and the *Developer has the right to retain control of the Association after a majority of Points has been sold*.

(my comment:
 This Club is in North Carolina, this Club includes multiple resorts in multiple states, as long as Festiva controls at least 10.00000000000001 % of this Club – they get 3 votes for every Point.  If they buy into additional resorts, they will just keep the Association from ever achieving 90% of the votes and continue their control.   PS note that there is no mention of WEEKS OWNERS – who will not be Club Members and will have NO SAY in what the Club does.)


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Classylassy523 said:


> Sorry Cliff ... I prefer transparency and would have to share any communications from you with the other people who feel the same way about you, Outfield and Festiva that I do.



No problem

I offer complete transparency to Sandcastle owners, but our business is our business and much of what you and other owners might like to know is not generally available to the public.  If you'd like answers, I can only offer them to you, I can't make you accept them.  All I ask is that you respect the confidentiality of information that I'm more than willing to share with you.  If you don't want to respect that confidentiality, that, of course is up to you. Simply do not expect me to share confidential information if you breach that agreement.

Cliff


----------



## ChrisH

*Check Intercity Escrow Services*



Classylassy523 said:


> 13) *When the improvements are made, the now-unused inventory is sold, and **the affiliations with Festiva and II are established*, Cliff thinks that the value of our individual shares will increase substantially. On the other hand, if he were to let the place go on as it has been, then considering the code violations, the sewer issue, and the financial problems, it may be only a matter of time before something drastic happens, and that might include the owners losing everything.
> 
> This sentence interests me and raises questions.  When I met with the Outfield Marketing person last October he told me that Festiva was _considering_ the Sandcastle as part of their organization.  No decision had been made and they (Festiva) were going to wait until all the improvements and repairs were completed, about a year or so.  At that time they (Festiva) would come back and inspect the resort and make a decision as to whether it (Sandcastle) would be included in the Festiva roster of world class resorts.
> 
> From what ProfPaul wrote it sounds like the relationship has not been established.  If this is true then I am wondering what will become of those units that were turned over to Festiva.  Were they actually turned over or are they in the possession of someone or something else?  I have been poking around in the public records regarding the Sandcastle and I found 6 recorded deed transfers for Festiva, and 5 of them were the Sandcastle.  Now if that is all they have managed to turn over, HOORAY.  But if it isn't, then where are the rest?
> 
> The more I read, the more questions I have.  Does anyone know the answers?
> 
> Where is Cliff when we need him?  I would email him but he won't answer me after my faux pas of the other evening.



The POS that Outfield gave me says FESTIVA is the 'Developer' and NEVS LLC is the SELLER, see previous msg on this thread.

Also, after the first few 'exchanges' of deeds and money for Points - Festiva changed the Quitclaim deed from Festiva resorts via Intercity Escrow Services, to just Intercity Escrow Services.  But the Intercity Quitclaim document itself reads:

InterCity Escrow Services, a CA corporation, the address of which is 6210 Stoneridge Mall Road, Suite 140, Pleasanton, CA 94588 (hereinafter called "Grantee"), Trustee pursuant to that certain Declaration for Festiva Resorts Adventure Club dated August 11, 2206, executed by Festiva Development Group, LLC and Festiva Adventure Club Members Association Inc. (the Declaration), it heirs, successors and assigns, the below described real property:

If you plug in Intercity Escrow Services in the Barnstable deeds search:  just read the doc and compare it to the few Festiva ones - they are the same thing.  Just a name change after the first few.

Chris


----------



## Classylassy523

*A few questions for the King of the castle*

Cliff ....

How about I ask you my questions right here in front of God and everyone?

They all pretty much pertain to Festiva and the turned over timeshares by deeded owners.  

Here goes ....

Going by what your Outfield Marketing representative told me last October regarding Festiva's plans to wait until the repairs and upgrades were completed at the Sandcastle before they made a final decision about including our resort in their roster of world class resorts, and that it would be at least a year before the decision was made ... my questions are about those deeded interval ownerships that were turned over in exchange for the Festiva point system.

1)  How could membership in Festiva be sold to Sandcastle owners when there was no agreement made between Festiva and the Sandcastle?  If there is no agreement made between Festiva and Sandcastle because our resort doesn't measure up to Festiva's standards of a world class resort, then don't those former deeded owners now have no chance to stay at their formerly owned units during their formerly owned weeks, or any week or any unit for that matter?

2)  If Festiva does not agree to include the Sandcastle in its list of world class resorts what becomes of those deeded interval ownerships?  Will they be returned to the original owners or will they be retained by someone or some entity?

Now this question I KNOW you can answer:
3)    How many units have been turned over for Festiva points?  Why do I ask? I have been reading the public records regarding Festiva and Sandcastle, and I find only 5 listings.  So that tells me one of two things - either your Outfield Marketing representatives have failed in their efforts, or someone or some other entity is holding those deeds.

Knowing you are widely versed and knowledgeable about the timeshare industry, (from your IVS Realty webpage:  New England's oldest and largest timeshare resale company) and the various programs offered by companies like Festiva, RCI and II, you should also be able to answer this:
4)  If Festiva should decide not to include the Sandcastle in its roster of world class resorts what happens to those people who got their points from turning over their deeded properties?  Do they lose their points?  Do they lose all that money they had to pay to have someone take their property from them? 

5)  The person(s) or entities who now hold the deeds from those units that were exchanged ... those units that were a source of maintenance fees and special assessments in the past ... are those person(s) or entities now responsible for paying the maintenance fees and special assessments on those same units? 

I just have so many questions ... makes my head hurt ... the more I think the more questions I have.

There just seems to be so many if's, why's, how's and what's about all this.  So much that is unknown ... so much smoke and mirrors ... no transparency, and I am a person who prefers transparency to smoke and mirrors.  I guess I just don't like being treated like a mushroom and kept in the dark. 

So I am turning to you Cliff ... you are the expert here ... the well known timeshare industry dude.  How about some answers and help.

Thanks in advance for your assistance,
Jean


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Sorry Jean, I'm no longer answering questions on TUG.  Every time I do, I'm vilified and flamed.  I get called a "thief", a "liar", a "crook", etc.  I'm told that people won't believe me no matter what I say, even if it's the truth.  I've even been accused of committing crimes by people who don't know what they're talking about, do not have any facts to back up their accusations and don't realized the implications of their statements.  I've been accused of pretending to be other people when I'm not and there's no way I can prove I'm not someone any more than someone can prove they're not a child molester.  I don't know how to prove a negative.  I've been personally attacked and libeled.  I've had private communications from me published on TUG.  I've seen confidential resort information published on TUG.

There is no point in my answering questions when I'm told I won't be believed no matter what I say.  I will always respond to owners and answer their questions.  As I've said, I do expect that confidential communications remain confidential.  I don't think that's too much to ask.

What we have here is not reasonable discourse between people who may have opposing viewpoints.  What we have here is diatribe and vitriol of the basest sort and I choose not to participate in it any longer.

Any Sandcastle owner that has questions can reach me at nevmsllc@gmail.com

Cliff


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Sorry Jean, I'm no longer answering questions on TUG.  Every time I do, I'm vilified and flamed.  I get called a "thief", a "liar", a "crook", etc.  I'm told that people won't believe me no matter what I say, even if it's the truth.  I've even been accused of committing crimes by people who don't know what they're talking about, do not have any facts to back up their accusations and don't realized the implications of their statements.  I've been accused of pretending to be other people when I'm not and there's no way I can prove I'm not someone any more than someone can prove they're not a child molester.  I don't know how to prove a negative.  I've been personally attacked and libeled.  I've had private communications from me published on TUG.  I've seen confidential resort information published on TUG.
> 
> There is no point in my answering questions when I'm told I won't be believed no matter what I say.  I will always respond to owners and answer their questions.  As I've said, I do expect that confidential communications remain confidential.  I don't think that's too much to ask.
> 
> What we have here is not reasonable discourse between people who may have opposing viewpoints.  What we have here is diatribe and vitriol of the basest sort and I choose not to participate in it any longer.
> 
> Any Sandcastle owner that has questions can reach me at nevmsllc@gmail.com
> 
> Cliff



Cliff,

What makes the answers to the questions "confidential"?

Have you marked them "confidential"? 

Do you have non-disclosure agreements with the parties you share them with?

Why do you feel it is so important to control the flow of information between interested parties (both owner and non-owner)?

On one hand, you want to transparency. But only with the party that asks the question.

It is hard to reach but one conclusion with that pattern of your actions...


----------



## Classylassy523

*No shock, just the usual*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Sorry Jean, I'm no longer answering questions on TUG.  Every time I do, I'm vilified and flamed.  I get called a "thief", a "liar", a "crook", etc.  I'm told that people won't believe me no matter what I say, even if it's the truth.  I've even been accused of committing crimes by people who don't know what they're talking about, do not have any facts to back up their accusations and don't realized the implications of their statements.  I've been accused of pretending to be other people when I'm not and there's no way I can prove I'm not someone any more than someone can prove they're not a child molester.  I don't know how to prove a negative.  I've been personally attacked and libeled.  I've had private communications from me published on TUG.  I've seen confidential resort information published on TUG.
> 
> There is no point in my answering questions when I'm told I won't be believed no matter what I say.  I will always respond to owners and answer their questions.  As I've said, I do expect that confidential communications remain confidential.  I don't think that's too much to ask.
> 
> What we have here is not reasonable discourse between people who may have opposing viewpoints.  What we have here is diatribe and vitriol of the basest sort and I choose not to participate in it any longer.
> 
> Any Sandcastle owner that has questions can reach me at nevmsllc@gmail.com
> 
> Cliff



Cliff ...

To be totally honest ... had you answered my questions I would have been shocked.  Your response is just what I expected.  Even if I had put the questions into an email you would have probably answered with a bunch on non-information, yet again.  

I already know the answers to the questions.  I asked you because I was wondering if just once you would provide the transparency that you have touted in the past.  Instead you come back with a whining 'poor me' bunch of garble.  You try to portray yourself as the injured party.  No one likes you, people call you names, you are accused of committing devious deeds, you are falsely accused of lying.  Get real, Cliff.  *You have been caught in your lies, your deviousness has been uncovered and exposed time and time again.*  You do the deed, you pay the price.

So, Cliff, no surprise from you this time.  Just more smoke and mirrors, whining, and non-information.

Jean


----------



## ProfPaul

Okay, last post. This is why I stopped hanging out in un-moderated online forums about 15 years ago. I thought maybe things had changed, but I can see the bullies and ignoramuses are still in charge. Frankly, from where I sit, a large number of you are being led around by the nose by non-owners who wouldn't know Cape Cod if they fell over it. Stephen Colbert, we need you...

I'm not going to go back and correct 250 posts, and there are a lot of good questions that have been posted that I am trying to get answers for, but there are some basic assumptions here that many of you have gone ballistic over that are just wrong. Unfortunately, they have taken on lives of their own, and all sorts of absurd conclusions have spun off from them.

I will describe two of them and then I will shut up, because I have better things to do than deal with all of the quarter-truths and worthless factoids that are being passed off as Gospel.

1) There is no Octoman. The BBS administrator who noted that several users were using the same IP address did a disservice to everyone by implying all of those users were the same person. That is just wrong. I administer several computer networks, both professional and personal, and I know. Because Sandcastle has a large internal wireless network, anyone logging on from anywhere within the complex will show up on an IP monitor as having the same address. I am in my room at the moment, 9:20 am EDT. I have no idea where Cliff is, but I do know he's not in my room.

2) The reason we cannot get a list of all the owners is that there are conflicts between the Mass General Law (which says we're entitlted to it) and the federal Privacy Act (which says we're not). Think about this: If Sandcastle were to give out everyone's address, and someone who got the list decided to stalk someone they met around the barbecue grill, who would be liable? Under federal law, Sandcastle would be, and they would stand to lose big. I understand that not a single timeshare operator on the Cape will give out owner lists for precisely this reason. Does this need to be settled in court? Probably. But the decision isn't going to be based on who's right or wrong, it's going to be based on whether federal law trumps state law. Is anyone volunteering to be party to that suit? Go right ahead, and let me know what happens. In the meantime, all the timeshare operators are playing it safe.

There are plenty of questions that need to be asked of Cliff, and I will continue to ask them. He has been completely forthright in his answers to me. He has asked for confidentiality on some of them, and I will respect that. Have I signed a confidentiality agreement? No, and I won't; and he won't ask me too. But because we are being civil with each other, he is so far responding completely appropriately.

I urge every owner who wants to really understand what's going on to contact/confront Cliff directly. If you don't like what he says, then go ahead and hire a lawyer and sue his ass. But continuing to scream for blood based on the "facts" that have been posted here, while it may be fun (especially for people who have no stake in the situation), is not going to do you or any other owner any good.

Good bye and good luck.

PP


----------



## e.bram

IMHO:
ProfPaul = Cliff = SHILL

It is now Novoman


----------



## Fig

ProfPaul said:


> 1) There is no Octoman. The BBS administrator who noted that several users were using the same IP address did a disservice to everyone by implying all of those users were the same person. That is just wrong. I administer several computer networks, both professional and personal, and I know. Because Sandcastle has a large internal wireless network, anyone logging on from anywhere within the complex will show up on an IP monitor as having the same address. I am in my room at the moment, 9:20 am EDT. I have no idea where Cliff is, but I do know he's not in my room.
> PP



This is just beyond silly.

1. You are acting far too ticked and interested in Cliff's affairs.
2. To have us believe several people are spending their vactions on the internet defending Cliff is beyond credible. 
3. Viv claims never to be spending time on the internet while at the resort...cause of the kiddies. She typed her responses when she got "home." 

"A day or so later when we bumped into her and her husband in the parking lot her husband mentioned if we'd looked at the site yet. I told him we hadn't because we were on vacation with the kids and we have the rule of no video games, computer or tv whilst on vacation (which I could enforce that the rest of the year too), but I'd probably take look when we got home."

She claims to be posting on her return. Yet the IP shows Viv and Cliff to be very, very, very close in proximity. Where is home? the basement of the resort?

Not even a half-hearted try...but Eric appears to have won the bet...someone claiming superior knowledge of the internet would come on the boards and try to explain the whole fiasco away. A "prof" too!

Like I say...folks, you are up against something that appears to stop at nothing. Good luck!


----------



## ghubbert

*Really only two people posting?*



e.bram said:


> IMHO:
> ProfPaul = Cliff = SHILL
> 
> It is now Novoman



If everyone and anyone who posts something that is either neutral or positive are all considered to be one and the same person, what is to say that all the negative posters are not also one and the same person?

This all makes for great entertainment, but it has become very difficult to  take any of it seriously.


----------



## Fig

ghubbert said:


> If everyone and anyone who posts something that is either neutral or positive are all considered to be one and the same person, what is to say that all the negative posters are not also one and the same person?
> 
> This all makes for great entertainment, but it has become very difficult to  take any of it seriously.



Oh, I think a lot of owners are taking Cliff's antics VERY, VERY seriously.


----------



## ghubbert

Fig said:


> Oh, I think a lot of owners are taking Cliff's antics VERY, VERY seriously.



Unless they are all one and the same person perhaps?


----------



## Fig

ghubbert said:


> Unless they are all one and the same person perhaps?



Yeah, it's a plan we have been hatching over several decades. Join the internet over several years not months....type from various IP's to give it a feel geographic diversity...not like Cliff and his alts who all use the same IP. Appear to join and have knowledge of several different resorts. In fact, all of TUG is one person furiously typing away...gotta go, the Carpal Tunnel is killing me  

Cliff, give up, Dude.


----------



## tombo

He states that he will never post here again, then two NEW GUESTS appear defending him. This guy is unbelievable in so many ways. Well every time he invents another happy owner he is simply showing his desperation. 

BTW, the next time a new poster with the same IP address appears who loves Cliff and the resort, would someone please meet them in the lobby since they are obviously at the resort.

It is amazing that so many post nowhere but from the resort. Even more amazing if I am not mistaken is that some of these posts occurred before the Wi Fi at the resort was even operational. Does anyone remember the date it started? I remember one figment of Masman's imagination talking about how he hoped that the wireless internet was up and working when they went for their week. If I am not mistaken Cliff said it would be working within 2 weeks. This meant that many including massman and capeguitarguy had registered on TUG before the wilreless was even installed. Hard to type from the same IP address if there is no wireless unless you are on the same computer. Hard to type as FIG pointed out if you didn't get on the computer while on vacation.

The more lies being told to cover the previous lies, the more he gets caught. Is he not smart enough to admit he is caught and just stop? I feel sorry for the owners at these resorts because it is being run by someone who will tell any lie to get their way. You will never be able to know for sure what is actually happening at your resort as long as Cliff,viv,prof,mas,cape,stein is in charge.


----------



## Fig

tombo said:


> He states that he will never post here again, then two NEW GUESTS appear defending him. This guy is unbelievable in so many ways. Well every time he invents another happy owner he is simply showing his desperation.
> 
> BTW, the next time a new poster with the same IP address appears who loves Cliff and the resort, would someone please meet them in the lobby since they are obviously at the resort.
> 
> It is amazing that so many post nowhere but from the resort. Even more amazing if I am not mistaken is that some of these posts occurred before the Wi Fi at the resort was even operational. Does anyone remember the date it started? I remember one figment of Masman's imagination talking about how he hoped that the wireless internet was up and working when they went for their week. If I am not mistaken Cliff said it would be working within 2 weeks. This meant that many including massman and capeguitarguy had registered on TUG before the wilreless was even installed. Hard to type from the same IP address if there is no wireless unless you are on the same computer. Hard to type as FIG pointed out if you didn't get on the computer while on vacation.
> 
> The more lies being told to cover the previous lies, the more he gets caught. Is he not smart enough to admit he is caught and just stop? I feel sorry for the owners at these resorts because it is being run by someone who will tell any lie to get their way. You will never be able to know for sure what is actually happening at your resort as long as Cliff,viv,prof,mas,cape,stein is in charge.



The sad thing is...this is all being done on Sandcastle and Southcape owners dimes.


----------



## tombo

This post on Southscape shows that the wireless internet was not even operational as many of the aliases registered using the same IP address on TUG.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=761956&postcount=863


----------



## TUGBrian

ProfPaul said:


> 1) There is no Octoman. The BBS administrator who noted that several users were using the same IP address did a disservice to everyone by implying all of those users were the same person. That is just wrong. I administer several computer networks, both professional and personal, and I know. Because Sandcastle has a large internal wireless network, anyone logging on from anywhere within the complex will show up on an IP monitor as having the same address. I am in my room at the moment, 9:20 am EDT. I have no idea where Cliff is, but I do know he's not in my room.
> PP



Since I was named specifically, ill address this item.

1. I never implied they were the same person, I merely provided information that all the posters who were on one side of the fence, were all posting from, or registered using...the same IP address(s).

2. Your IP address doesnt match any of them.

3. one of the posters with a "matching" ip claimed they were posting after they returned home from vacation if I recall correctly, how would said person be able to post from the same IP address if that were the case?  I suppose its POSSIBLE that they live within wireless range of the resort.

I merely provided the information as was asked of me for others to form their own opinions as it does indeed have some bearing on the discussion and was asked for by members.

However you like everyone else here, are free to type your opinion on the situation as you see fit.  The Free Exchange of ideas and information is what TUG is all about, noone here is only interested in one side of the story.


----------



## Fig

ginnyB60 said:


> The problem I have with my information being shared is that, whilst I am sure most of the owners are decent people (although over the years I have come across a few who were doubtful), I do not agree with my personal information being handed over to hundreds - and potentially thousands - of strangers.  Who knows what some of them might do with the information?
> 
> Besides which, someone could get a lot of money selling a list of this nature.



Hmm how seriously can we take this "privacy" concern? From what TugBrian says, you are sharing your IP address with a bunch of people at the resort...since you and a number of other posts all seem to be coming from the same IP as Cliff's. 

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=762003&postcount=870

Funny how you and VivMarch, another alt, use the word "whilst"...should have been a tip that you are not an owner interested in protecting privacy at all. 

Cliff, give up the game.


----------



## JackB62

*For Sandcastle Interval Owners*

Just a quick question...how many units are at Sandcastle?

How many intervals are owned (I remember that it's not a year-round
resort?)

Thanks,

Jack


----------



## Carolinian

Well, another interesting first post.  Does knee-jerk support of Cliff really pull so many people to TUG????

I hope, Cliff has found somewhere else to post from, as he has been busted from his old location!



ghubbert said:


> If everyone and anyone who posts something that is either neutral or positive are all considered to be one and the same person, what is to say that all the negative posters are not also one and the same person?
> 
> This all makes for great entertainment, but it has become very difficult to  take any of it seriously.


----------



## Carolinian

JackB62 said:


> Just a quick question...how many units are at Sandcastle?
> 
> How many intervals are owned (I remember that it's not a year-round
> resort?)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jack



And is NEVS claiming to ''own'' and be able to vote those weeks when the resort is closed, and no one in paying m/f's?  If so, that is outrageous and needs to be challenged.  Maybe one of Cliff's alternate personas will answer that one.


----------



## Sou13

*Here's what's bugging me*

What's really bugging me now is that Sandcastle has wireless Internet while Southcape is still waiting for it, and Southcape owners have been assessed $400 to pay for Sandcastle's wireless Internet access!

I have an IP address from capeguitarguy.  It's [209.85.219.162].  Is that supposed to be confidential?


----------



## Sou13

the first message from capeguitarguy came from [69.16.236.4].


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> What's really bugging me now is that Sandcastle has wireless Internet while Southcape is still waiting for it, and Southcape owners have been assessed $400 to pay for Sandcastle's wireless Internet access!
> 
> I have an IP address from capeguitarguy.  It's [209.85.219.162].  Is that supposed to be confidential?



Do you have documentation of this information?

How are Southcape owners assessed to improve Sandcastle?


----------



## ecwinch

ProfPaul said:


> 1) There is no Octoman. The BBS administrator who noted that several users were using the same IP address did a disservice to everyone by implying all of those users were the same person. That is just wrong. I administer several computer networks, both professional and personal, and I know. Because Sandcastle has a large internal wireless network, anyone logging on from anywhere within the complex will show up on an IP monitor as having the same address. I am in my room at the moment, 9:20 am EDT. I have no idea where Cliff is, but I do know he's not in my room.
> 
> 2) The reason we cannot get a list of all the owners is that there are conflicts between the Mass General Law (which says we're entitlted to it) and the federal Privacy Act (which says we're not). Think about this: If Sandcastle were to give out everyone's address, and someone who got the list decided to stalk someone they met around the barbecue grill, who would be liable? Under federal law, Sandcastle would be, and they would stand to lose big. I understand that not a single timeshare operator on the Cape will give out owner lists for precisely this reason. Does this need to be settled in court? Probably. But the decision isn't going to be based on who's right or wrong, it's going to be based on whether federal law trumps state law. Is anyone volunteering to be party to that suit? Go right ahead, and let me know what happens. In the meantime, all the timeshare operators are playing it safe.



In regard to #1 - how do you so emphatically know that Cliff is not guilty of using multiple aliases? Cliff has already said that he cannot prove a negative. Do you suddenly have the ability to do this?

And while you offer a reasonable explanation of why IP duplication might have occurred with posts originating from the resort,  you missed or are ignoring the fact the fact that this duplication is occurring over different networks. 

Your explanation might be possible with a network router using Network Address Translation (NAT). In the case, each poster would seem to be using the same IP address. So if all the posts originated from Sandcastle that would be fine. 

But we have the posts from these same group of users using duplicate IP from  multiple originating networks.

Cliff, I think you have got your IT guy to give you an reasonable explanation, but you failed to tell him that you have been posting from different networks. So unless this group of people is following you around, there is only one conclusion.

Nice try though.

And why would this poster be so upset about questions from non-owners. This is what you fail to understand and what makes your alt posts so transparent.

And I find it very interesting that the example you cite as rationale for not providing the members list, is the exact same one that Cliff used in a discussion with me. 

And exploring the logic of that position, by extension this would mean that any phone/address list would open the provider up to civil action.  So my daughters high school directory, the phone book, my wife's Girl Scout phone tree, the county assessors website, are all examples of violations of federal law. Hmmm, maybe someone could tell me exactly what federal law is in question here?


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> He states that he will never post here again, then two NEW GUESTS appear defending him. This guy is unbelievable in so many ways. Well every time he invents another happy owner he is simply showing his desperation.
> 
> BTW, the next time a new poster with the same IP address appears who loves Cliff and the resort, would someone please meet them in the lobby since they are obviously at the resort.
> 
> It is amazing that so many post nowhere but from the resort. Even more amazing if I am not mistaken is that some of these posts occurred before the Wi Fi at the resort was even operational. Does anyone remember the date it started? I remember one figment of Masman's imagination talking about how he hoped that the wireless internet was up and working when they went for their week. If I am not mistaken Cliff said it would be working within 2 weeks. This meant that many including massman and capeguitarguy had registered on TUG before the wilreless was even installed. Hard to type from the same IP address if there is no wireless unless you are on the same computer. Hard to type as FIG pointed out if you didn't get on the computer while on vacation.
> 
> The more lies being told to cover the previous lies, the more he gets caught. Is he not smart enough to admit he is caught and just stop? I feel sorry for the owners at these resorts because it is being run by someone who will tell any lie to get their way. You will never be able to know for sure what is actually happening at your resort as long as Cliff,viv,prof,mas,cape,stein is in charge.



"Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive."

Sir Walter Scott.


----------



## ecwinch

ghubbert said:


> Unless they are all one and the same person perhaps?



You might want to look at how long each of those posters have been a member here and how many posts they have. 

As opposed to the alt posts which all have recent registrations, only post in this and the Southcape threads, and have collectively spent less time on this forum than I have spent in the bathroom.

Have you ever stopped to wonder what would draw someone to this forum, they suddenly join, and right away their very, very first posts are in defense of Cliff. And they do not even ask any questions first. Just jump right in and begin defending Cliff.

I am sorry this is just an insult to our intelligence and it really is just pathetic at this point.


----------



## Fig

ecwinch said:


> You might want to look at how long each of those posters have been a member here and how many posts they have.
> 
> As opposed to the alt posts which all have recent registrations, only post in this and the Southcape threads, and have collectively spent less time on this forum than I have spent in the bathroom.



Here's a tip from the Hagberg playbook of alts....when try to sound like a woman, use the word "whilst"...even if you are trying to create two totally different woman...like Viv and Ginny...because everyone knows all women use this word all the time!

Cathy


----------



## Sou13

Quote:
Originally Posted by *ecwinch*

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Sou13* 
_What's really bugging me now is that Sandcastle has wireless Internet while Southcape is still waiting for it, and Southcape owners have been assessed $400 to pay for Sandcastle's wireless Internet access!

I have an IP address from capeguitarguy. It's [209.85.219.162]. Is that supposed to be confidential?_​_Do you have documentation of this information?

How are Southcape owners assessed to improve Sandcastle?_​
I sent you the documentation.

We Southcape owners have been levied a $400 Special Assessment for improvements, including wireless Internet access, which have yet to be made, while Sandcastle seems to have wireless Internet access without yet being levied a Special Assessment.

Meanwhile, who else has been at Sandcastle this week who is already registered to post on TUG?  Let's hear it from them.  Has wireless Internet access been installed at Sandcastle?  It wasn't there when ChrisH was there!


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ecwinch*
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sou13*
> _What's really bugging me now is that Sandcastle has wireless Internet while Southcape is still waiting for it, and Southcape owners have been assessed $400 to pay for Sandcastle's wireless Internet access!
> 
> I have an IP address from capeguitarguy. It's [209.85.219.162]. Is that supposed to be confidential?_​_Do you have documentation of this information?
> 
> How are Southcape owners assessed to improve Sandcastle?_​
> I sent you the documentation.
> 
> We Southcape owners have been levied a $400 Special Assessment for improvements, including wireless Internet access, which have yet to be made, while Sandcastle seems to have wireless Internet access without yet being levied a Special Assessment.
> 
> Meanwhile, who else has been at Sandcastle this week who is already registered to post on TUG?  Let's hear it from them.  Has wireless Internet access been installed at Sandcastle?  It wasn't there when ChrisH was there!




Sorry, I meant documentation of the following:

"Southcape owners have been assessed $400 to pay for Sandcastle's wireless Internet access!"

Your post leads to the conclusion that Cliff is diverting funds from Southcape to pay for improvements at Sandcastle. Which would likely be a criminal offense. 

Maybe that is not what you intended to say.  Perhaps you mean that Sandcastle is getting wireless without an assessment, while Southcape is being assessed for that improvement. Which is not the same as Southcape paying for Sandcastle's wireless access.


----------



## Classylassy523

Fig said:


> Here's a tip from the Hagberg playbook of alts....when try to sound like a woman, use the word "whilst"...even if you are trying to create two totally different woman...like Viv and Ginny...because everyone knows all women use this word all the time!
> 
> Cathy



We do?  Hmmmm  Is that supposed to be a classy, high rent type of word?   

Jean


----------



## Classylassy523

*Fingerprints*

I have this vision of Cliff sitting at his computer, hunched over, teeheeing.  When he is ProfPaul he has on a cardigan sweater and horned rims.  When he is Viv he wears fake fingernails and a blonde wig.  When he is capeguitar man he is dressed like Elvis.  And, all the while, he is wearing latex gloves to prevent leaving his fingerprints on the keyboard.

I am sorry Cliff, but I just couldn't resist.  I have a vivid imagination and think graphically.


----------



## tombo

Classylassy523 said:


> I have this vision of Cliff sitting at his computer, hunched over, teeheeing.  When he is ProfPaul he has on a cardigan sweater and horned rims.  When he is Viv he wears fake fingernails and a blonde wig.  When he is capeguitar man he is dressed like Elvis.  And, all the while, he is wearing latex gloves to prevent leaving his fingerprints on the keyboard.
> 
> I am sorry Cliff, but I just couldn't resist.  I have a vivid imagination and think graphically.



You paint a good picture and do have a good imagination, however I think Cliff has to win the imagination award.  

Unfortunatelly his characters lack believability, but they are numerous, and they are different in many ways (locations, gender, occupations etc.). We all know that these posters are fictional characters, the scary thing would be if Cliff actually believed that they were real.


----------



## mweinberg

Sou13 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ecwinch*
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sou13*
> _What's really bugging me now is that Sandcastle has wireless Internet while Southcape is still waiting for it, and Southcape owners have been assessed $400 to pay for Sandcastle's wireless Internet access!
> 
> I have an IP address from capeguitarguy. It's [209.85.219.162]. Is that supposed to be confidential?_​_Do you have documentation of this information?
> 
> How are Southcape owners assessed to improve Sandcastle?_​
> I sent you the documentation.
> 
> We Southcape owners have been levied a $400 Special Assessment for improvements, including wireless Internet access, which have yet to be made, while Sandcastle seems to have wireless Internet access without yet being levied a Special Assessment.
> 
> Meanwhile, who else has been at Sandcastle this week who is already registered to post on TUG?  Let's hear it from them.  Has wireless Internet access been installed at Sandcastle?  It wasn't there when ChrisH was there!



Wireless Internet access was available at the Sandcastle during the week of June 27 to July 4, but only from the lobby and second floor lounge in the Dunes Building.  The signal wasn't powerful enough to be picked up in rooms or in the other building.


----------



## ChrisH

*LOL*



Classylassy523 said:


> I have this vision of Cliff sitting at his computer, hunched over, teeheeing.  When he is ProfPaul he has on a cardigan sweater and horned rims.  When he is Viv he wears fake fingernails and a blonde wig.  When he is capeguitar man he is dressed like Elvis.  And, all the while, he is wearing latex gloves to prevent leaving his fingerprints on the keyboard.
> 
> I am sorry Cliff, but I just couldn't resist.  I have a vivid imagination and think graphically.



:hysterical:   Oh, no!!!! I think you might ruffle OCTOPERSONA's Tenticles :hysterical:


----------



## Sou13

*ProfPaul got a gift card!*

So ProfPaul got a $50 gift card for listening to the Outfield Marketing spiel!  All I got was a cup of coffee!


----------



## mweinberg

Sou13 said:


> So ProfPaul got a $50 gift card for listening to the Outfield Marketing spiel!  All I got was a cup of coffee!



If you had gone along with the deal, though, you would have gotten that lovely leather binder http://tugbbs.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


----------



## Classylassy523

Sou13 said:


> So ProfPaul got a $50 gift card for listening to the Outfield Marketing spiel!  All I got was a cup of coffee!



I didn't even get coffee.  Of course I did have an 'attitude'.  I think he couldn't get me out there fast enough.


----------



## Classylassy523

*TUG Member*

I just want everyone to know that I am now a TUG member.  It still says Guest.  I have a few emails explaining how to make the Guest go away and Member to show up.  I just have to twist my head around it and get it fixed. 

And, I didn't have any $50 gift card to pay for it either.  

So I am a TUG MEMBER and proud of it!   

Jean


----------



## ChrisH

*I'm always listed as Guest TOO!*



Classylassy523 said:


> I just want everyone to know that I am now a TUG member.  It still says Guest.  I have a few emails explaining how to make the Guest go away and Member to show up.  I just have to twist my head around it and get it fixed.
> 
> And, I didn't have any $50 gift card to pay for it either.
> 
> So I am a TUG MEMBER and proud of it!
> 
> Jean



I didn't get the gift card,  and 

I had to MAKE THE COFFEE myself!!!   

I'm always listed as guest too, don't know why, not worried about it.:zzz: 

Welcome aboard new MEMBER   - 

I love your sense of humor Jean.  :hysterical:  

Chris


----------



## mayorpw

ChrisH said:


> I didn't get the gift card,  and
> 
> I had to MAKE THE COFFEE myself!!!
> 
> I'm always listed as guest too, don't know why, not worried about it.:zzz:
> 
> Welcome aboard new MEMBER   -
> 
> I love your sense of humor Jean.  :hysterical:
> 
> Chris



i have been an owner for many years and all of you are complaining because you were asked to pay to go to a better system, ask those who have pts and there are hardly any complaints the problem is you cant fix stupid and that consists of all of you that have nothing better to do than cause a stir, so with that if you dont like it thats fine but dont try to stop someone else that can afford it to better their vacation options


----------



## ecwinch

mayorpw said:


> i have been an owner for many years and all of you are complaining because you were asked to pay to go to a better system, ask those who have pts and *there are hardly any complaints the problem is you cant fix stupid and that consists of all of you that have nothing better to do than cause a stir,* so with that if you dont like it thats fine but dont try to stop someone else that can afford it to better their vacation options



I respect your right to have the opinion that you enjoy your ownership, feel that pts are a good system, and feel the developer is improving the resort by offering you the opportunity to join a pts system.

I think it is completely inappropriate for you to infer those that do feel the same way are stupid. That does not strengthen your opinion, if fact it does the opposite. 

Voicing disagreement with the Developers policies in no way stops you or anyone else from improving their vacation options.

But insulting people in order to voice your disagreement is not an appropriate rebuttal to the concerns voiced here.

And the post is too transparent Cliff. Would you like me to give you some pointers on how you might spend just a little time and at least create some small measure of doubt that you are not Cliff or a Cliff proxy. Of course, it flys out the window when you immediately start making self-serving posts.

I feel like I am in a bad episode of Scooby-Doo. We keep ripping the mask off the reveal the evil developer, but they keep popping up. Can someone pass the scooby snacks?

And if you get this upset when people voice disagreement on a forum, how are you going to react when this in front of a judge?


----------



## mayorpw

ecwinch said:


> I respect your right to have the opinion that you enjoy your ownership, feel that pts are a good system, and feel the developer is improving the resort by offering you the opportunity to join a pts system.
> 
> I think it is completely inappropriate for you to infer those that do feel the same way are stupid. That does not strengthen your opinion, if fact it does the opposite.
> 
> Voicing disagreement with the Developers policies in no way stops you or anyone else from improving their vacation options.
> 
> But insulting people in order to voice your disagreement is not an appropriate rebuttal to the concerns voiced here.
> 
> And the post is too transparent Cliff. Would you like me to give you some pointers on how you might spend just a little time and at least create some small measure of doubt that you are not Cliff or a Cliff proxy. Of course, it flys out the window when you immediately start making self-serving posts.
> 
> I feel like I am in a bad episode of Scooby-Doo. We keep ripping the mask off the reveal the evil developer, but they keep popping up. Can someone pass the scooby snacks?
> 
> And if you get this upset when people voice disagreement on a forum, how are you going to react when this in front of a judge?



you have an opinion and as well i do, and assumption is a problem here rick


----------



## e.bram

We now have Decoman.


----------



## Carolinian

e.bram said:


> We now have Decoman.



This one may actually be an alias for someone from Festiva, a real cesspool of a system.  Or defending Festiva, too, may be a new disguise for the man with multiple personalities.


----------



## Classylassy523

mayorpw said:


> i have been an owner for many years and all of you are complaining because you were asked to pay to go to a better system, ask those who have pts and there are hardly any complaints the problem is you cant fix stupid and that consists of all of you that have nothing better to do than cause a stir, so with that if you dont like it thats fine but dont try to stop someone else that can afford it to better their vacation options



If Festiva Resorts is such a wonderful organization then how come they are in trouble up to their eyeballs in so many states?  Go to Google and type in Festiva Resorts and Attorney General.  You will get page after page from state after state regarding the actions of Festiva Resorts.  This company doesn't care about hurting people, over charging people, robbing people blind with their 'good deeds'.  

To make matters worse Festiva hooks up with the likes of Outfield Marketing.  Talk about going from bad to worse.  I don't know if you have been subjected to the selling technique of this band of renegades, but I have.  It was insulting, demeaning, hurtful and scurrilous.  I was misled to believe that the meeting was to discuss the changes coming to my resort.  The only things this person had to say about the Sandcastle were derogatory and for the most part blatantly untrue ... out and out lies is another way to put it.  If this organization is so upright and above board, then why do they refuse to give people information or brochures about their offerings?  Instead, they demand that you put your signature on the dotted line, cross their palms with money, and then they will give you information.  This has been going on since our resort was taken over.  And, no matter how much complaining, no matter how many report them, they just continue.  Mr. Hagberg has been told time and time again ... not just here ... and not just the people who post here.  And, he just doesn't get rid of them.  Why, you might ask?  Because he cannot get rid of them.  They control the Board of Trustees.  In my estimation, Cliff Hagberg is just the front guy for one of the most dishonest, disgusting organizations I have ever come across.  A warm body from Massachusetts was probably needed and Cliff filled the bill.   

So, there you have my opinion about Festiva Resorts, its points program and Outfield Marketing.  I won't get started on Cliff because this post wouldn't end.


----------



## ecwinch

Classylassy523 said:


> If Festiva Resorts is such a wonderful organization then how come they are in trouble up to their eyeballs in so many states?  Go to Google and type in Festiva Resorts and Attorney General.  You will get page after page from state after state regarding the actions of Festiva Resorts.  This company doesn't care about hurting people, over charging people, robbing people blind with their 'good deeds'.
> 
> To make matters worse Festiva hooks up with the likes of Outfield Marketing.  Talk about going from bad to worse.  I don't know if you have been subjected to the selling technique of this band of renegades, but I have.  It was insulting, demeaning, hurtful and scurrilous.  I was misled to believe that the meeting was to discuss the changes coming to my resort.  The only things this person had to say about the Sandcastle were derogatory and for the most part blatantly untrue ... out and out lies is another way to put it.  If this organization is so upright and above board, then why do they refuse to give people information or brochures about their offerings?  Instead, they demand that you put your signature on the dotted line, cross their palms with money, and then they will give you information.  This has been going on since our resort was taken over.  And, no matter how much complaining, no matter how many report them, they just continue.  Mr. Hagberg has been told time and time again ... not just here ... and not just the people who post here.  And, he just doesn't get rid of them.  Why, you might ask?  Because he cannot get rid of them.  They control the Board of Trustees.  In my estimation, Cliff Hagberg is just the front guy for one of the most dishonest, disgusting organizations I have ever come across.  A warm body from Massachusetts was probably needed and Cliff filled the bill.
> 
> So, there you have my opinion about Festiva Resorts, its points program and Outfield Marketing.  I won't get started on Cliff because this post wouldn't end.



The speculation is that Festiva provided the financial backing that allowed Cliff and Outfield to buy the developer rights and inventory. 

Alt Cliff will probably pop in and tell me I do not know what I am talking about.


----------



## ecwinch

mayorpw said:


> you have an opinion and as well i do, and *assumption is a problem* here rick



Only your assumption that we are stupid. 

And Cliff's assumption that it could roll up the owners and do what he pleased with the developer rights he purchased.

And his assumption that "as a leading expert on timeshare resales" that he could show up here and show those ignorant timeshare owners a thing or two. I think that assumption was similar to General Custer's assumption about the Indians at Little Big Horn. With a similar outcome.

And Outfields assumption that they could use questionable sales tactics to scare owners into buying the drivel they were selling.

And his lenders assumption that Cliff could pull all this off before he goes into default. And I hear a clock ticking every minute of every day in that regard. Hope they sell cup-a-noodles on the cape.

And while I indicated that I respect your right to have an opinion, you do not have the right to insult people by calling them stupid.
JMO


----------



## FestivaRep

*I'm back!*

Hello TUGers, I know it's been a while since I've posted, but my job description has expanded a bit in the last few months and unfortunately I have not been able to spend time reading and responding on the board.  I've taken a few days to catch up at the request of our executives, and I just wanted to let everyone know that I'm here.

As always, I'm ready to answer any questions you may have, publicly or privately.  Some of these questions may take longer to post answers to than others.  My first position with the company was in Owner Services, so I have a good knowledge of the company and how membership works.  Of course, for some things I will have to consult owner services, the Club manager, the legal department and/or our executives, so those may take a little bit of time to answer.  

I can see from my catch-up reading that there has been some concern over people posting as multiple users, so feel free to check my IP address.  Many of you will remember me from other threads as well.  Also, to my knowledge I am the only employee from Festiva Resorts who is on this board.  If there is another employee posting and not identifying him/herself as a Festiva employee or representative, regardless of their intentions, then they are in direct violation of corporate policy.  As for me, I simply do not have the time to post as anyone other than FestivaRep, nor would I do so if I did have the time because I would probably get in trouble with the boss!  

So, with that out of the way, I do want to publish an e-mail address that we have recently created to address questions, concerns, etc. from owners, members and even non-owners who have toured a resort and wish to leave us feedback.  If you send an e-mail to comments@festivaresorts.com, it will come to my inbox and I will be able to *immediately* send it to the head(s) of the appropriate department whether that's sales, legal, marketing, member services or straight to an executive (and they often are CC'd on many of the e-mails that are filtered to a specific department, particularly when the claim has to do with a misrepresentation or negative action by any of our employees).  

That's not to say that I don't want to address issues publicly, but ever since we created the system to address concerns with that e-mail address, we have been able to work with our customers directly and resolve issues much more quickly than when we find out through third parties (i.e. complaint sites) and e-mails to other addresses that inadvertently get sent to the wrong place.  

We have made business cards bearing that e-mail address that are given to every single guest that tours at our sales sites, and they are encouraged to immediately let us know how they were treated on the tour.  This has been effective in getting feedback directly from our guests to our corporate office, which is not always easy with 10 different sales sites and more than 20 resorts.

Moving on, the one issue that I was specifically asked to address on this thread is to clarify the relationship between our company and the two resorts in Mass.  Festiva Resorts does not own or manage either Southcape or Sandcastle.  Further, we do not own NEVS or Outfield.  Outfield is the company we have hired to offer *optional* upgrades to the Festiva Adventure Club program from a deeded week.  

It is not our intention for these in-home visits to be high pressure or forcible, and we do want to know if any of the owners who feel they have been treated this way.  BUT, in order to take action, we need to know your full name, and any other information you can provide about your visit (date/time and name of the rep if possible).  You can post that here, or if you prefer to keep your information private, send it to the comments e-mail address.  

Keep in mind that we need specific information in order to help you, and for the initial contact, please keep it as abbreviated as possible so that it can be routed to the appropriate person.  I know there are a lot of general complaints, but quite frankly, I've tried in the past to address concerns posted by several of the users here, and some attempts that I've made with factual information and honest replies have only been met with negative feedback and provocative remarks.  

Thanks for your time, and I look forward to helping in any way that I can.  I'm sorry this is such a lengthy post, but it's been so long that I've posted that I wanted to offer some explanation and information for everyone.  I'll keep it brief in the future!


----------



## Sou13

*No wireless at Southcape*

I have heard from a Southcape owner who's there this week and his report is that there is still no wireless Internet access at Southcape.

I have also heard that "Frank in Owners' Services" isn't giving $50 gift cards for owners' time.  But he *IS* occupying two units, not just one!


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> I have heard from a Southcape owner who's there this week and his report is that there is still no wireless Internet access at Southcape.
> 
> I have also heard that "Frank in Owners' Services" isn't giving $50 gift cards for owners' time.  But he *IS* occupying two units, not just one!



Exercise your right to inspect the records. The request should be specifically worded that you want to inspect the books pertaining to transactions related Outfield's compensation for use of SC units as sales offices. 

It actually would be more helpful if Cliff refused the request. 

The request should be in writing, and you should set the appointment for inspection at a reasonable future date (5-10 business days).


----------



## Fig

FestivaRep said:


> Moving on, the one issue that I was specifically asked to address on this thread is to clarify the relationship between our company and the two resorts in Mass.  Festiva Resorts does not own or manage either Southcape or Sandcastle.  Further, we do not own NEVS or Outfield.  Outfield is the company we have hired to offer *optional* upgrades to the Festiva Adventure Club program from a deeded week.



Hi Festiva Rep...welcome back. If you hired Outfield to market, why? They were at the epicenter of your problems in WI when you were fined by the AG there. They are cited on a Peppertree Resort website as lying to people to get their deeds and you are being investigated in NC as well. Steve Lamatia, an Outfield employee has been made a trustee of Southcape and Sandcastle...after being asked to leave an in-home visit in WI. He was quoted as saying things that have been disputed by RCI. Why was he not fired? Why have you discontinued using Outfield Marketing in NC as detailed on your website?

Thanks for your time.


----------



## ecwinch

FestivaRep said:


> Moving on, the one issue that I was specifically asked to address on this thread is to clarify the relationship between our company and the two resorts in Mass.  Festiva Resorts does not own or manage either Southcape or Sandcastle.  Further, we do not own NEVS or Outfield.  Outfield is the company we have hired to offer *optional* upgrades to the Festiva Adventure Club program from a deeded week.
> 
> Thanks for your time, and I look forward to helping in any way that I can.  I'm sorry this is such a lengthy post, but it's been so long that I've posted that I wanted to offer some explanation and information for everyone.  I'll keep it brief in the future!



FestivaRep,

Thanks for coming back into the fray. As happens, speculation can run amok, when no one takes the time to provide answers to questions. 

In that regard I appreciate your participation here on TUG and I realize that you are only the messenger. You are not making these business decisions, and I have a high regard for the manner in which you have conducted yourself here. Hopefully others will see the same and treat you with respect, regardless of the opinion they may have toward your organization. 

I only ask this next question, as you have introduced the topic of the business relationship between Festiva and NEVS/Outfield. I would like to go a little further.

Can you tell us if Festiva has played any role in arranging or providing the financing that NEVS/Outfield used to acquire the developer rights at the aforementioned resorts.

I understand your intention was only to disavow direct ownership. But if you wish to protect the reputation of Festiva, but would be helpful if you disclosed, in general terms, any security interest you have in these organizations or their holdings. You have stated that Outfield is only the outside sales organization, and you have no ownership in NEVS or Outfield. Others might feel mislead if it was revealed that Festiva has a security interest in either of these two organizations or the resorts pursuant to a financing agreement.

I think you can understand how it would undermine your creditability if your statement here was later found to have omitted key information. If nothing exists then it would beneficial to Festiva to put that speculation to rest.

Please consider my point.


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> Moving on, the one issue that I was specifically asked to address on this thread is to clarify the relationship between our company and the two resorts in Mass.  Festiva Resorts does not own or manage either Southcape or Sandcastle.  Further, we do not own NEVS or Outfield.  Outfield is the company we have hired to offer *optional* upgrades to the Festiva Adventure Club program from a deeded week.



Welcome back. It is always great to hear the company's position.

It is funny that in this TV news report from May 1st 2009 that a Festiva spokesperson (I believe it was Don Clayton, CEO) told the reporter:

"Festiva says the Missouri problems happened while it was using a third party company for sales and marketing and that company may not have been following Festiva policies.
Festiva says it no longer uses outsourced companies for sales and marketing."

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...tes&id=6789555

That company that may not have been following Festiva's policies was (and is) Outfield. Before May the 1st when this news show aired we know that Outfield was marketing Festiva Points in Missouri, North Carolina, and Massachusetts (and possibly other locations). Then the CEO says on May 1st that Festiva no longer uses outsourced companies. The outsourced company used when the Missori AG sued Festiva was Outfield, so one would assume from the CEO's statement that Outfield no longer was hired as a third party sales force. Now you as a spokesperson for Festiva state that Festiva neither owns nor manages Outfield, but that Outfield is simply a COMPANY YOU HIRED to sell festiva points. 

How can the CEO tell the news reporter that Festiva learned it's lesson and no longer uses outsourced companies for sales and marketing only to have you subsequently come here and explain to everyone that Outfield is an outsourced marketing company Festiva hired to market Festiva Adventure Club? I look forward to your answer.


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> It is not our intention for these in-home visits to be high pressure or forcible, and we do want to know if any of the owners who feel they have been treated this way. BUT, in order to take action, we need to know your full name, and any other information you can provide about your visit (date/time and name of the rep if possible). You can post that here, or if you prefer to keep your information private, send it to the comments e-mail address.





Just in case you forgot that Outfield was the same company that you hired to sell your weeks when you got sued in Missouri, here is a web discussion from people who were pitched Festiva points by Outfield in 2006 and another in 2008. The stories of what the Outfield reps said in 2006 and 2008 sound identical to what is being said in 2009 by Outfield. The same marketing company is apparently marketing the same way. The only thing that has changed is that Festiva is now trying to appear to proactivelly be handling the complaints since the Massachusetts AG and the North Carolina AG are both looking at Festiva's sales practices. To have Festiva continue to employ Outfield to sell points, while acting shocked that Outfield might be using the same aggressive and deceptive practices that they have used in the past, makes it very hard (if not impossible) to take Festiva's concern for customers seriously.


http://www.timeshareforums.com/foru...10-festiva-goes-points-charges-thousands.html

Anther thread about 2007 Outfield sales tactics:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...e_Vac_Club_Any_feedback-Branson_Missouri.html

February 5th,2008 Outfield sales call on cutomer by Steve Lamantia. Steve Lamantia is currently one of Outfield's sales reps/owners has also been appointed a Trustee at Southscape.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html

July 9th, 2008 Festiva settles with the Missouri AG for $339,000 (Outfield and Lamantia were activelly selling during the AG's investigation) Please scroll down below the article to read 5 posts from 2009 with names since you are looking for recent complaints with names, they aren't hard to find.:

http://www.rentvri.com/festiva-timeshare-resorts-fined-by-missouri-attorney-general/

Steve Lamantia and Outfield are still employed by Festiva to market Festiva's points, but you state that Festiva's position is that Festiva is agressivelly investigating complaints from people who were allegedly lied to, pressured, or coerced. How many people do you need to hear complaints from over how many years before you might admit that there is a problem, and how many AG's have to sue you before you fire Outfield? 

You might get the opportunity to defend Outfield's sales techniques in 2 different states in the very near future. Having a track record of blaming the third party hired sales force every time a State's AG sues Festiva might not look very good when it is revealed that you have kept employing the the same sales people and the same 3rd party marketing company for numerous years, even after settling with the Missouri's AG over their sales tactics.


----------



## e.bram

Mr FestivaMan:
If many club members bail out and don't pay their dues. which of the many TSes will get their MF paid and which will be stiffed.
Even those TS owners who don't convert are being put at risk by these Festiva activity(Take not Janice)


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## ecwinch

e.bram said:


> Mr FestivaMan:
> If many club members bail out and don't pay their dues. which of the many TSes will get their MF paid and which will be stiffed.
> Even those TS owners who don't convert are being put at risk by these Festiva activity(Take not Janice)



How is she supposed to answer this speculative question? 

I respect your opinion, but fail to understand how she (or anyone) could answer this question. It seems rhetorical.


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## tombo

ecwinch said:


> How is she supposed to answer this speculative question?
> 
> I respect your opinion, but fail to understand how she (or anyone) could answer this question. It seems rhetorical.



I think he was asking if things got really bad at certain festiva resorts with only a limited number of weeks owners paying MF's, which resorts would Festiva keep (ie Church Street Inn, The Atrium, etc) and which they would simply let fold (Cabins at Green Mountain, Southscape, etc). If things got real bad they could jettison their lower demand/value resorts and keep their best resorts while keeping all of their points members. Since the Festiva Points members are points members and not specific resort owners, Festiva could reduce the number of resorts in the club without reducing the number of FAC members. The weeks owners at the resorts that Festiva dumped would be left with very few owners trying to keep the resort operating because Festiva could file bankruptcy and/or simply give the Festiva owned weeks back to the resort and walk away. The prior weeks owners at those resorts who were now points members would still pay Festiva MF's and no longer have access to their original resort. It could happen if a particular resort or Festiva got in financial trouble.


----------



## Carolinian

Trading a deeded week for a points club like Festiva is NOT an ''upgrade'' but a massive downgrade.

When you hire a company with a long record of chicanery to market your product, then what they do, does indeed reflect on your organization as well.


----------



## Carolinian

Other points clubs have done exactly that in the past.  Tying your resort up with one of these outfits is dangerous for the resort.  Some resorts have folded when a points club does not pay m/f's.  Others have massive special assessments.




tombo said:


> I think he was asking if things got really bad at certain festiva resorts with only a limited number of weeks owners paying MF's, which resorts would Festiva keep (ie Church Street Inn, The Atrium, etc) and which they would simply let fold (Cabins at Green Mountain, Southscape, etc). If things got real bad they could jettison their lower demand/value resorts and keep their best resorts while keeping all of their points members. Since the Festiva Points members are points members and not specific resort owners, Festiva could reduce the number of resorts in the club without reducing the number of FAC members. The weeks owners at the resorts that Festiva dumped would be left with very few owners trying to keep the resort operating because Festiva could file bankruptcy and/or simply give the Festiva owned weeks back to the resort and walk away. The prior weeks owners at those resorts who were now points members would still pay Festiva MF's and no longer have access to their original resort. It could happen if a particular resort or Festiva got in financial trouble.


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## e.bram

Thank you Tombo.(could not have said it better myself(or I would have)).
In this economy with seasonal resorts it is highly probable .


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> I think he was asking if things got really bad at certain festiva resorts with only a limited number of weeks owners paying MF's, which resorts would Festiva keep (ie Church Street Inn, The Atrium, etc) and which they would simply let fold (Cabins at Green Mountain, Southscape, etc).



No, I understood the question. But I still not think it is a fair question to pose. 

It is unanswerable. 

Do you think there is a resort priority list that FestivaRep could disclose? Even if she wanted to?

Now if the question is:

How is Festiva addressing the growing trend of owner defaults?

Is Festiva experiencing m/f defaults that will create a shortfall between revenues and their m/f commitments?

Given the growing trend of owner defaults, what is Festiva's plan to deal with shortfalls between revenues and their m/f obligations?

More resorts are seeing owner's default on their m/f commitments, increasing the burden on the remaining owners. This is resulting in resorts using special assessments to meet their operational needs. Has Festiva experienced that trend at their affiliated resorts, and if so, how will the Festiva address the situation?

I think all of those are fair questions. Asking her speculate that they will stiff one resort over another, is not fair. Nor do I see the purpose of asking the question as originally phrased. JMO.


----------



## e.bram

You are right.I was not expecting an answer. But, I was merely trying to expose TS owners to the risks of a TS converting to a point system such as Festiva where the deeds are surrendered(as opposed to RCI points). There is no satisfactory answers for seasonal resorts such as Southcape or sandcastle, for my or ewinch's questions.


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## ecwinch

Look, I use the rhetorical question all the time to make a point. So I cannot exactly criticize someone else for doing the same.

But I think we should be respectful that FestivaRep is a little different in that she is performing a service for owners and has a limited amount of time to do so. She is not like some of us who come here to kill time.

So maybe we should only ask her real questions that she has a chance of answering or getting an answer to. We can soapbox without wasting her time filtering through and reading questions she cannot answer. It just reduces the number of questions she can respond to. JMO


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> No, I understood the question. But I still not think it is a fair question to pose.
> 
> It is unanswerable.
> 
> Do you think there is a resort priority list that FestivaRep could disclose? Even if she wanted to?
> 
> Now if the question is:
> 
> How is Festiva addressing the growing trend of owner defaults?
> 
> Is Festiva experiencing m/f defaults that will create a shortfall between revenues and their m/f commitments?
> 
> Given the growing trend of owner defaults, what is Festiva's plan to deal with shortfalls between revenues and their m/f obligations?
> 
> More resorts are seeing owner's default on their m/f commitments, increasing the burden on the remaining owners. This is resulting in resorts using special assessments to meet their operational needs. Has Festiva experienced that trend at their affiliated resorts, and if so, how will the Festiva address the situation?
> 
> I think all of those are fair questions. Asking her speculate that they will stiff one resort over another, is not fair. Nor do I see the purpose of asking the question as originally phrased. JMO.



The question is easily answerable. The answer is if things get bad we are going to try and keep a,b, and c resorts while unloading all ownership in d,e, and f resorts. Eric, it is your contention that it isn't a fair question, not everyone's on this thread. I am sure that Festiva Mgt has discussed the "what if scenarios", and I feel sure that Festiva knows exactly which resorts it will try to remain in control of and which it will dump if things go bad. Do I think the question will be answered honestly? Of course not. Do I think that they could answer it if they wanted to? Absolutelly! 

Your questions are also easily answerable. Do I think that Festiva will answer all of your questions honestly? Absolutelly not. Should you ask the questions anyway? Absolutelly! 

There is no reason to not ask a question just because someone on this thread feels that it won't be answered. Sometimes an unanswered question speak volumes. 

Anyone should feel free to ask any question they want. The Festiva rep in the past has never had a problem choosing which questions she wants to answer, and which she won't. Let her determine which questions are unanswerable rather than attacking any question you personally don't like. The question was posed to the Festiva rep, not you. JMO.


----------



## mayorpw

tombo said:


> The question is easily answerable. The answer is if things get bad we are going to try and keep a,b, and c resorts while unloading all ownership in d,e, and f resorts. Eric, it is your contention that it isn't a fair question, not everyone's on this thread. I am sure that Festiva Mgt has discussed the "what if scenarios", and I feel sure that Festiva knows exactly which resorts it will try to remain in control of and which it will dump if things go bad. Do I think the question will be answered honestly? Of course not. Do I think that they could answer it if they wanted to? Absolutelly!
> 
> Your questions are also easily answerable. Do I think that Festiva will answer all of your questions honestly? Absolutelly not. Should you ask the questions anyway? Absolutelly!
> 
> There is no reason to not ask a question just because someone on this thread feels that it won't be answered. Sometimes an unanswered question speak volumes.
> 
> Anyone should feel free to ask any question they want. The Festiva rep in the past has never had a problem choosing which questions she wants to answer, and which she won't. Let her determine which questions are unanswerable rather than attacking any question you personally don't like. The question was posed to the Festiva rep, not you. JMO.



i just have one question why is it the same people on this thread creating a problem that is not there, and if anyone checks other threads on this site these same people are there. saying the same thing about other organizations. beleive what you want


----------



## FestivaRep

Fig said:


> Hi Festiva Rep...welcome back. If you hired Outfield to market, why? They were at the epicenter of your problems in WI when you were fined by the AG there. They are cited on a Peppertree Resort website as lying to people to get their deeds and you are being investigated in NC as well. Steve Lamatia, an Outfield employee has been made a trustee of Southcape and Sandcastle...after being asked to leave an in-home visit in WI. He was quoted as saying things that have been disputed by RCI. Why was he not fired? Why have you discontinued using Outfield Marketing in NC as detailed on your website?
> 
> Thanks for your time.



If you're referring to the AG settlement in Missouri (not WI), it was not Outfield that we used that caused our problems there, it was Summerwinds. A clarification (read: FACTS) of the Missouri AG settlement can be found here.

We have stopped using Outfield to market to members of the Peppertree Vacation Club as a direct result of meetings with the PVTC Advisory Committee.  This committee was formed by PVTC members after a meeting between one concerned PVTC member and the FAC Manager and Festiva Resorts' President.  Plenty of information about the advisory committee and the changes that we have made at their suggestions is available on that section of our website: http://www.festivaresorts.com/pvtc.php.


----------



## e.bram

mayorpw:
I was trained as an engineer. We don't make problems, we anticipate them. And I see a big potential problem here.


----------



## FestivaRep

I can verify the information that we gave to ABC as I worked directly with our CEO in communicating with the reporter.  Unfortunately, the reporter failed to provide the complete statement that we gave that Festiva no longer hires outsourced companies to sell our product *AT OUR RESORTS*, i.e. those resorts that we own and/or manage.

Again, the outsourced company involved in the Missouri AG was NOT Outfield, it was Summerwinds, a company that was selling for us on-site at our Branson resort.  The AG allegations took place well before we ever employed anyone to do home visits of any kind.  I would love to know where you got the information that it was Outfield.  

As cautious consumers, I'm sure you all know and keep in mind that the media has their own way to spin facts to make a better story.  



tombo said:


> Welcome back. It is always great to hear the company's position.
> 
> It is funny that in this TV news report from May 1st 2009 that a Festiva spokesperson (I believe it was Don Clayton, CEO) told the reporter:
> 
> "Festiva says the Missouri problems happened while it was using a third party company for sales and marketing and that company may not have been following Festiva policies.
> Festiva says it no longer uses outsourced companies for sales and marketing."
> 
> http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...tes&id=6789555
> 
> That company that may not have been following Festiva's policies was (and is) Outfield. Before May the 1st when this news show aired we know that Outfield was marketing Festiva Points in Missouri, North Carolina, and Massachusetts (and possibly other locations). Then the CEO says on May 1st that Festiva no longer uses outsourced companies. The outsourced company used when the Missori AG sued Festiva was Outfield, so one would assume from the CEO's statement that Outfield no longer was hired as a third party sales force. Now you as a spokesperson for Festiva state that Festiva neither owns nor manages Outfield, but that Outfield is simply a COMPANY YOU HIRED to sell festiva points.
> 
> How can the CEO tell the news reporter that Festiva learned it's lesson and no longer uses outsourced companies for sales and marketing only to have you subsequently come here and explain to everyone that Outfield is an outsourced marketing company Festiva hired to market Festiva Adventure Club? I look forward to your answer.


----------



## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> Just in case you forgot that Outfield was the same company that you hired to sell your weeks when you got sued in Missouri,



Nope, Summerwinds.



> July 9th, 2008 Festiva settles with the Missouri AG for $339,000 (Outfield and Lamantia were activelly selling during the AG's investigation)



The settlement was in 2008, but the allegations took place from 2005 and earlier.


----------



## FestivaRep

ecwinch said:


> FestivaRep,
> 
> I only ask this next question, as you have introduced the topic of the business relationship between Festiva and NEVS/Outfield. I would like to go a little further.
> 
> Can you tell us if Festiva has played any role in arranging or providing the financing that NEVS/Outfield used to acquire the developer rights at the aforementioned resorts.



Response from the president of Festiva:

Festiva has never provided or arranged financing for NEVS or Outfield for any purpose.


----------



## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> Your questions are also easily answerable. Do I think that Festiva will answer all of your questions honestly? Absolutelly not. Should you ask the questions anyway? Absolutelly!
> 
> Anyone should feel free to ask any question they want. The Festiva rep in the past has never had a problem choosing which questions she wants to answer, and which she won't. Let her determine which questions are unanswerable rather than attacking any question you personally don't like. The question was posed to the Festiva rep, not you. JMO.



I have no reason to lie, and if I were asked or told to lie or be dishonest then I would not be doing this job.

Please let me know which reasonable questions have been posed that I have 'chosen' not to answer.

If I have not answered any speculative or rhetorical questions it's because, as has been recognized before, I do have numerous job responsibilities that often must take priority over reading through lengthy posts and dissecting them to get to the real questions.  I've provided the information for anyone to contact us directly if you wish to work with us to come to a resolution to your problems.  comments@festivaresorts.com


----------



## Fig

FestivaRep said:


> Again, the outsourced company involved in the Missouri AG was NOT Outfield, it was Summerwinds, a company that was selling for us on-site at our Branson resort.  The AG allegations took place well before we ever employed anyone to do home visits of any kind.  I would love to know where you got the information that it was Outfield.



Here is a link that has Steve Lamantia making house calls in Branson MO. 
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html
Perhaps you can explain how an Outfield key person was making in home calls at this time as you seem to be employing them? The settlement came out several months after this post. He is referred to by name...pretty interesting since he is now a Trustee at Southcape and Sandcastle. He seems pretty far the ladder in Outfield---an owner...perhaps you can share that with us? The RCI claim is being used again at these properties and has been disputed by RCI in an email to an owner at one of the resorts. It is a claim that shows up again and again on complaints boards as a tatic to get owners to convert...why the false claims by an Outfield key player?

Thank you for the information...and your helpful tone.


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> I can verify the information that we gave to ABC as I worked directly with our CEO in communicating with the reporter.  Unfortunately, the reporter failed to provide the complete statement that we gave that Festiva no longer hires outsourced companies to sell our product *AT OUR RESORTS*, i.e. those resorts that we own and/or manage.
> 
> Again, the outsourced company involved in the Missouri AG was NOT Outfield, it was Summerwinds, a company that was selling for us on-site at our Branson resort.  The AG allegations took place well before we ever employed anyone to do home visits of any kind.  I would love to know where you got the information that it was Outfield.
> 
> As cautious consumers, I'm sure you all know and keep in mind that the media has their own way to spin facts to make a better story.



I apparently was mistaken. I assumed that all who filed complaints from 2005 until the settlement with the MO AG in June of 2008 were part of the suit. I have plenty of posts discussing Outfield's sales of Festiva points and details of their sales techniques from 2007 to the present. I re-read and realized that only those who filed in 2005 or prior were covered under the suit. I also assume (feel free to correct me) that Outfield was hired as soon as the AG filed suit to start selling instead of Summerwinds. This way sales never stopped, Southwind could be portrayed as the rogue sales force( making them the scapegoat), and Outfield steps in with stories about how owners weeks will become useless and unsuseable with RCI unless the owner pays to convert to points.

TV news shows are not the only ones who spin facts to make their story sound better, some companies do the same thing to make money and cover their tails. Hmm, if I had to believe a lying local TV news show's story or the honest timeshare company's story, who would I believe as a cautious consumer?

http://www.legalnewsline.com/news/213804-time-share-company-agrees-to-pay-339000-settlement

Two questions.



1. Why would you continue to hire 3rd party sales force after being sued and settling in missouri and after removing Outfield (a 3'rd party sales force) from in house sales due to complaints at Peppertree.

2. Why would you continue to allow Outfield to market in people's homes when you won't allow them to market onsite? If they are doing things to make owners mad at the resort, imagine what they are saying in people's homes with no one around to hear them. If they are unacceptable at the resort for sales, then why aren't they also unacceptable for in home sales?


----------



## FestivaRep

Again, the *settlement* with the Missouri AG occurred in 2008, but the AG *allegations* that took place central to the settlement occurred 3 to 5 years prior to that, and had nothing to do with Outfield.  As noted in the information we have published about the AG settlement, there was no activity on the AG suit for THREE years.




Fig said:


> Here is a link that has Steve Lamantia making house calls in Branson MO.
> http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html
> Perhaps you can explain how an Outfield key person was making in home calls at this time as you seem to be employing them? The settlement came out several months after this post. He is referred to by name...pretty interesting since he is now a Trustee at Southcape and Sandcastle. He seems pretty far the ladder in Outfield---an owner...perhaps you can share that with us? The RCI claim is being used again at these properties and has been disputed by RCI in an email to an owner at one of the resorts. It is a claim that shows up again and again on complaints boards as a tatic to get owners to convert...why the false claims by an Outfield key player?
> 
> Thank you for the information...and your helpful tone.


----------



## FestivaRep

*Missouri AG clarification*

I provided a link to this information as it appears on our Blog, but it may be easier to post it here for clarification:

We realize that there is still inaccurate information circulating about the lawsuit initiated by the Missouri Attorney General’s office (MOAG) several years ago. We would like to provide the facts about this situation to clarify any confusion or misinformation that you may have  heard or read.

During the time the MOAG allegations took place, Festiva Resorts had entered into an agreement with a third party company that provided sales and marketing services for Festiva Resorts in and affecting Branson, Missouri.

This third party company engaged 100% in all of the sales and marketing practices that led to the MOAG’s allegations of improper sales and marketing techniques.  Further, all such practices are completely contrary to Festiva Resorts’ corporate policies and they were not condoned by Festiva.

During the MOAG’s investigation, Festiva Resorts fully cooperated with their office, leading to the lawsuit being withdrawn and a voluntary agreement being entered between Festiva and the MOAG’s office.

It should be noted that the MOAG’s lawsuit was in error and it was filed outside their standard operating procedures, which is supported by the fact that no activity occurred in the suit for almost 3 years and it was ultimately withdrawn.

The relationship between Festiva Resorts and said third party company has since ceased, and Festiva Resorts no longer uses outsourced companies for any sales and marketing services at our resort sales centers.


----------



## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> I also assume (feel free to correct me) that Outfield was hired as soon as the AG filed suit to start selling instead of Summerwinds.



That's not correct, Outfield was first hired for in-home calls after Festiva's acquisition of the Peppertree/Equivest Club.  It was not related to the Summerwinds/MOAG situation.



> 1. Why would you continue to hire 3rd party sales force after being sued and settling in missouri and after removing Outfield (a 3'rd party sales force) from in house sales due to complaints at Peppertree.
> 
> 2.Why would you continue to allow Outfield to market in people's homes when you won't allow them to market onsite? If they are doing things to make owners mad at the resort, imagine what they are saying in people's homes with no one around to hear them. If they are unacceptable at the resort for sales, then why aren't they also unacceptable for in home sales?



I'll look into these questions for you but i may not have a response until next week as I have to get back to work for the rest of the day.

Have a great weekend.


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> That's not correct, Outfield was first hired for in-home calls after Festiva's acquisition of the Peppertree/Equivest Club.  It was not related to the Summerwinds/MOAG situation.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll look into these questions for you but i may not have a response until next week as I have to get back to work for the rest of the day.
> 
> Have a great weekend.



OK, Thanks.

2 more quick questions:



FestivaRep said:


> The relationship between Festiva Resorts and said third party company has since ceased, and Festiva Resorts no longer uses outsourced companies for any sales and marketing services at our resort sales centers.



1. Why did the Missouri AG file suit against Festiva instead of Southwind, and why did Festiva settle and pay the money if it was Southwind's fault and Festiva had no blame?

2. Since Southwind operated against Festiva's wishes, why did Festiva not sue Southwind to recover the $339,00 you paid to settle with the state of Missouri? Did you not require them to be bonded before hiring them? If not why not sue Southwind anyway because according to Festiva, Southwind was totally at fault?

http://www.legalnewsline.com/news/213804-time-share-company-agrees-to-pay-339000-settlement


----------



## FestivaRep

1.  Festiva attempts to resale defaulted weeks within the same year in order to minimize the impact on the remaining owners.

2.  There is not one answer to this question as each resort is unique and would be handled differently if they were to experience shortfalls between revenues and their m/f obligations.  

Like other businesses facing these trying economic times, Festiva has been and is looking at the issues you raise and has been and will be making appropriate financial/economic decisions as needed.  





ecwinch said:


> How is Festiva addressing the growing trend of owner defaults?
> 
> Is Festiva experiencing m/f defaults that will create a shortfall between revenues and their m/f commitments?
> 
> Given the growing trend of owner defaults, what is Festiva's plan to deal with shortfalls between revenues and their m/f obligations?
> 
> More resorts are seeing owner's default on their m/f commitments, increasing the burden on the remaining owners. This is resulting in resorts using special assessments to meet their operational needs. Has Festiva experienced that trend at their affiliated resorts, and if so, how will the Festiva address the situation?
> 
> I think all of those are fair questions. Asking her speculate that they will stiff one resort over another, is not fair. Nor do I see the purpose of asking the question as originally phrased. JMO.


----------



## mayorpw

e.bram said:


> mayorpw:
> I was trained as an engineer. We don't make problems, we anticipate them. And I see a big potential problem here.



so you wear the cool hat and sit at the front of the train


----------



## tombo

mayorpw said:


> i just have one question why is it the same people on this thread creating a problem that is not there, and if anyone checks other threads on this site these same people are there. saying the same thing about other organizations. beleive what you want



I am trying to ignore posts by Prof/stein/mass/cape/mayor/viv, etc. I am trying to concentrate on posts made by real posters.


----------



## mayorpw

tombo said:


> I am trying to ignore posts by Prof/stein/mass/cape/mayor/viv, etc. I am trying to concentrate on posts made by real posters.



yes, me too when will you go away


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> We realize that there is still inaccurate information circulating about the lawsuit initiated by the Missouri Attorney General’s office (MOAG) several years ago. We would like to provide the facts about this situation to clarify any confusion or misinformation that you may have  heard or read.



While you are clarifying law suits, what is the status of the suit filed against Festiva by the owners at the Atrium resort in St Maarten?

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/atriumowners/web/timesharing-in-st-maarten---editorial

http://www.timeshareforums.com/foru...nces-timeshares/68903-festiva-st-maarten.html

http://www.atriumowners.com/552.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*

http://www2.gobeach.com/sxm/read.php?1,61769,page=3

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/atriumowners/web/recent-litigation-messages-from-rowie


----------



## e.bram

IMHO:
Unless the owners get cintrol of the HOA wawy from NEVS and Festiva(where all deeded owners pay m/fs, the TSes will head toward insolvancy and converted to whole ownership which has order of magnitude more value than the TS(as to the real estate)


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> The question is easily answerable. The answer is if things get bad we are going to try and keep a,b, and c resorts while unloading all ownership in d,e, and f resorts. Eric, it is your contention that it isn't a fair question, not everyone's on this thread. I am sure that Festiva Mgt has discussed the "what if scenarios", and I feel sure that Festiva knows exactly which resorts it will try to remain in control of and which it will dump if things go bad. Do I think the question will be answered honestly? Of course not. Do I think that they could answer it if they wanted to? Absolutelly!
> 
> Your questions are also easily answerable. Do I think that Festiva will answer all of your questions honestly? Absolutelly not. Should you ask the questions anyway? Absolutelly!
> 
> There is no reason to not ask a question just because someone on this thread feels that it won't be answered. Sometimes an unanswered question speak volumes.
> 
> Anyone should feel free to ask any question they want. The Festiva rep in the past has never had a problem choosing which questions she wants to answer, and which she won't. Let her determine which questions are unanswerable rather than attacking any question you personally don't like. The question was posed to the Festiva rep, not you. JMO.



You are making the assumption that they have discussed them. Since your scenerio (A, B, C) would eventually lead to bankruptcy, it is pointless to suggest that FestivaRep has access to that information if it exists, or that it would be shared in a public forum.


----------



## ecwinch

FestivaRep said:


> 1.  Festiva attempts to resale defaulted weeks within the same year in order to minimize the impact on the remaining owners.
> 
> 2.  There is not one answer to this question as each resort is unique and would be handled differently if they were to experience shortfalls between revenues and their m/f obligations.
> 
> Like other businesses facing these trying economic times, Festiva has been and is looking at the issues you raise and has been and will be making appropriate financial/economic decisions as needed.



Thank you for this response, and the others provided. I think you have been very diligent in pursuing answers to the questions asked, in a professional manner.

One would only wish that more developers would be as open with information as your group has. And not attempt to hid behind the law as justification for avoiding questions. 

Thanks!


----------



## ChrisH

*Your Opinion - not ours*



mayorpw said:


> i have been an owner for many years and all of you are complaining because you were asked to pay to go to a better system, ask those who have pts and there are hardly any complaints the problem is you cant fix stupid and that consists of all of you that have nothing better to do than cause a stir, so with that if you dont like it thats fine but dont try to stop someone else that can afford it to better their vacation options



You say you have been an owner for many years - but you don't say where?  Do you own weeks at Sandcastle in P'town?  

I have been an owner at Sandcastle for 29 years.  Your opinion is that we 'were asked to pay to go to a better system' - well as a Sandcastle owner, I personally don't think Festiva Points/Adventure Club is a better system.  

They have shown me nothing that indicates it's a better system, what I've seen on the net doesn't indicate that it's a better system and there are plenty of complaints on points systems, Festiva and others, and complaints about II and about RCI.   But Festiva has numerous complaints, investigations, lawsuits etc.   

Why should I take your word that it's a better system -because you said so???  Without any proof?  

You're entitled to your opinion, but just because YOU SAY IT's Better - don't make it so.


----------



## Carolinian

Where Outfield was involved in Missouri or not, it seems to be the same points pressure scam - ''weeks are going away, you will lose your ability to exchange'' - used there that is being used to hoodoo people on Cape Cod out of their timeshare weeks.  These points scams have a long history, and seem to have originated in South Africa, devised by a former loan shark, or tallyman as they are called there.


----------



## mweinberg

FestivaRep said:


> Response from the president of Festiva:
> 
> Festiva has never provided or arranged financing for NEVS or Outfield for any purpose.



I have a question then: Does the relationship between Festiva and Outfield extend beyond simply hiring them for outside sales?  Do Festiva and Outfield have any board members in common?  Is Outfield owned, in whole or in part, by Festiva?

The part I'm having a hard time understanding is that in the absence of such a relationship, why on earth would Festiva keep on such an underhanded organization which has been the cause of so much trouble?  Plain and simply, Outfield utilizes high pressure tactics, half-truths, and outright lies to sell memberships in your club.  Is this really the reputation that Festiva wants?

Michael


----------



## Sou13

*A problem for FestivaRep*

When FestivaRep returns I hope (s)he will also return to the "Festiva takes over resort" discussion in the Points System discussions.

My problem with the answer about Outfield Marketing and NEVS is that there are two "partial discharges" of the $2.5 million mortgage to Festiva Resorts:

Bk-Pg:23537-176    Recorded: 03-18-2009 @ 10:05:13am  Inst #: 13836  Chg: N  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Partial Discharge 
Desc: UNIT 409 TIME 9 
Refers to Book: 23138-185 

Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 
Gtor: COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtor) 
Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  FESTIVA RESORTS 
                   1 VANCE GAP ROAD 
                   ASHEVILLE NC 28805​
Bk-Pg:23537-181    Recorded: 03-18-2009 @ 10:05:13am  Inst #: 13838  Chg: N  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Partial Discharge 
Desc: UNIT 403 TIME 9 
Refers to Book: 23138-185 

Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 
Gtor: COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtor) 
Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  FESTIVA RESORTS 
                   1 VANCE GAP ROAD 
                   ASHEVILLE NC 28805​
Please explain!


----------



## Classylassy523

*What you say is not necessarily what Festiva does*



FestivaRep said:


> Moving on, the one issue that I was specifically asked to address on this thread is to clarify the relationship between our company and the two resorts in Mass.  Festiva Resorts does not own or manage either Southcape or Sandcastle.  Further, we do not own NEVS or Outfield.  Outfield is the company we have hired to offer *optional* upgrades to the Festiva Adventure Club program from a deeded week.
> 
> *It is not our intention for these in-home visits to be high pressure or forcible, and we do want to know if any of the owners who feel they have been treated this way.  BUT, in order to take action, we need to know your full name, and any other information you can provide about your visit (date/time and name of the rep if possible).  You can post that here, or if you prefer to keep your information private, send it to the comments e-mail address.  *
> Keep in mind that we need specific information in order to help you, and for the initial contact, please keep it as abbreviated as possible so that it can be routed to the appropriate person.  I know there are a lot of general complaints, but quite frankly, I've tried in the past to address concerns posted by several of the users here, and some attempts that I've made with factual information and honest replies have only been met with negative feedback and provocative remarks.
> 
> Thanks for your time, and I look forward to helping in any way that I can.  I'm sorry this is such a lengthy post, but it's been so long that I've posted that I wanted to offer some explanation and information for everyone.  I'll keep it brief in the future!



How many times and how many people have to say the same things ... without their names, addresses, phone numbers, shoe sizes and bra sizes.  It would seem that there have been ENOUGH complaints between the three threads here on TUG (and other services as well) that are centered on Southcape and Sandcastle, that by now Festiva would be considering the validity of the problems, with or without names, addresses, etc, etc.  How many times does Festiva need to be told there is smoke before they believe there is a fire?

Cliff Hagberg has admitted on this thread that there have been problems with the selling techniques and actions of Outfield Marketing at Sandcastle.  Of course he can hardly fire employees of the controlling members of the Board of Trustees, not to mention kicking the whole bunch of them out.  These people are *SELLING Festiva's Adventure Club *... they are *NOT selling deeded weeks*.  So I have a difficult time believing Festiva's concerns and sincerity about separating themselves from high pressure, coercive selling practices and Outfield Marketing in particular.  

I have a few questions of my own:
1.  Does Festiva have any kind of *signed affiliation *with either Sandcastle or Southcape resorts?  I have been up to your website and saw the listing for Southcape (not as an owned resort but affiliated through FAC).  Interestingly enough, Sandcastle resort is not there.   

BTW, Southcape Resort and Club is in Mashpee, MASSACHUSETTS, not Mashpee, MAINE.  You might want to bring that to the web master's attention. 

2.  If there is no signed affiliation or agreement or contract with these resorts, how can you have dedicated salespeople there selling your product?  I know these salespeople are not your employees but you must have some kind of agreement or contract with Outfield Marketing for them to be selling your FAC.  

3.  I am a deeded owner at Sandcastle, have been since 1982, and I would like to know how many deeded weeks have become the deeded property of Festiva Resorts.  Well, if not of Festiva Resorts, then have been deposited into the Trust.  Let's set a date deadline ... say ... how many up to and including July 3, 2009.  I have requested a list of owners from Cliff Hagberg who inturn passed my request onto the Board of Trustees, but after 2 weeks there has been no response.  Of course, I would like to point out that they are breaking the law of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts by not responding to the requests of deeded owners for this list.  It isn't just me, so I am not taking it personally.  What I am taking their actions are is underhanded and illegal.  But I digress ....

4.  Has Cliff Hagberg deposited with Festiva or the Trust the weeks he acquired when he and his business partners and business backers purchased the Sandcastle?  Has he turned over any of the weeks, if not all of them, even the weeks during the periods the resort is closed?

5.  Once weeks are deposited into the Trust, deeded to Festiva or what ever happens when owners give up their deeded property for points, are Maintenance Fees and Special Assessments paid by Festiva, or the Trust, or whom/what ever is the owner, just like the rest of us single deeded owners pay? The reason I ask?  It was explained to me that single deeded owners would be responsible for 50% of MFs and SAs and Festiva would pay the other half.  The numbers were such ... if it took 2 million to run the resort, Festiva would pay 1 million or one half.  That percentage would stay the same as long as there were any single deeded owners and no matter how many weeks were deeded to Festiva, the Trust or whom/what ever.  So, if in 5 years it took 4 million, Festiva would pay half (no matter how many deeds were owned) and deeded owners (no matter how many) would pay the other 2 million.  Therefore, the MFs of single deeded owners would increase greatly and Festiva's per unit could even go down.  That is what your Outfield Marketing salesperson told me.  I hoped there might be something wrong with his selling spiel ... or he was trying to frighten me and probably others into buying into your FAC.  And, please don't insult me by saying I misunderstood because I had 2 people with me and they heard the same thing ... and I have the sheets of paper that he was using to scribble down numbers and circles and arrows.  Of course that is the only paperwork I walked away with.  

That raises another question ...
6.  How come these salespeople have NO literature, brochures, or information to give to people?  I was not in a position to make a decision at that time.  I was on vacation and had had my time interrupted by a misleading invitation to sit with this person and find out about the changes that were taking place.  I had NO idea it was going to be a sales pitch.  When I explained to him that I couldn't make a decision right then and there and needed information to take home with me to discuss with my family, I was told that I HAD to sign and accept the offer before I could have anything to take away with me.  That screamed SCAM to me and I walked out.  

I appreciate the time you are spending on here explaining Festiva and their different organizations.  But, I am having a hard time accepting all that you say when Festiva's actions belie your/their words.   It would seem that the leaders of Festiva learned about the fine art of semantics from Bill Clinton and practice it.

Jean


----------



## ecwinch

mweinberg said:


> I have a question then: Does the relationship between Festiva and Outfield extend beyond simply hiring them for outside sales?  Do Festiva and Outfield have any board members in common?  Is Outfield owned, in whole or in part, by Festiva?
> 
> The part I'm having a hard time understanding is that in the absence of such a relationship, why on earth would Festiva keep on such an underhanded organization which has been the cause of so much trouble?  Plain and simply, Outfield utilizes high pressure tactics, half-truths, and outright lies to sell memberships in your club.  Is this really the reputation that Festiva wants?
> 
> Michael



Michael,

FestivaRep usually does not work the weekends, so I will provide you with the answer she previously posted in this thread. If you scroll back thru her answers you will see it.

Festiva has no ownership in NEVS, Outfield Marketing, or the SandCastle or Southcape resorts. Nor did Festiva assist in any financing arrangements for the acquistion of those resorts by NEVS and Outfield.

I will leave it to her to address the interlocking BoD question, and the remainder of your post.

Hope that helps


----------



## Sou13

*What about the "partial discharge"?*

If Festiva did not assist in the financing of the acquisition, what about that "partial discharge" of the $2.5 million mortgage in my above post?


----------



## ChrisH

*To Festiva Rep*



FestivaRep said:


> Hello TUGers, I know it's been a while since I've posted, but my job description has expanded a bit in the last few months and unfortunately I have not been able to spend time reading and responding on the board.  I've taken a few days to catch up at the request of our executives, and I just wanted to let everyone know that I'm here.
> 
> As always, I'm ready to answer any questions you may have, publicly or privately.  Some of these questions may take longer to post answers to than others.  My first position with the company was in Owner Services, so I have a good knowledge of the company and how membership works.  Of course, for some things I will have to consult owner services, the Club manager, the legal department and/or our executives, so those may take a little bit of time to answer.
> 
> I can see from my catch-up reading that there has been some concern over people posting as multiple users, so feel free to check my IP address.  Many of you will remember me from other threads as well.  Also, to my knowledge I am the only employee from Festiva Resorts who is on this board.  If there is another employee posting and not identifying him/herself as a Festiva employee or representative, regardless of their intentions, then they are in direct violation of corporate policy.  As for me, I simply do not have the time to post as anyone other than FestivaRep, nor would I do so if I did have the time because I would probably get in trouble with the boss!
> 
> So, with that out of the way, I do want to publish an e-mail address that we have recently created to address questions, concerns, etc. from owners, members and even non-owners who have toured a resort and wish to leave us feedback.  If you send an e-mail to comments@festivaresorts.com, it will come to my inbox and I will be able to *immediately* send it to the head(s) of the appropriate department whether that's sales, legal, marketing, member services or straight to an executive (and they often are CC'd on many of the e-mails that are filtered to a specific department, particularly when the claim has to do with a misrepresentation or negative action by any of our employees).
> 
> That's not to say that I don't want to address issues publicly, but ever since we created the system to address concerns with that e-mail address, we have been able to work with our customers directly and resolve issues much more quickly than when we find out through third parties (i.e. complaint sites) and e-mails to other addresses that inadvertently get sent to the wrong place.
> 
> We have made business cards bearing that e-mail address that are given to every single guest that tours at our sales sites, and they are encouraged to immediately let us know how they were treated on the tour.  This has been effective in getting feedback directly from our guests to our corporate office, which is not always easy with 10 different sales sites and more than 20 resorts.
> 
> Moving on, the one issue that I was specifically asked to address on this thread is to clarify the relationship between our company and the two resorts in Mass.  Festiva Resorts does not own or manage either Southcape or Sandcastle.  Further, we do not own NEVS or Outfield.  Outfield is the company we have hired to offer *optional* upgrades to the Festiva Adventure Club program from a deeded week.
> 
> It is not our intention for these in-home visits to be high pressure or forcible, and we do want to know if any of the owners who feel they have been treated this way.  BUT, in order to take action, we need to know your full name, and any other information you can provide about your visit (date/time and name of the rep if possible).  You can post that here, or if you prefer to keep your information private, send it to the comments e-mail address.
> 
> Keep in mind that we need specific information in order to help you, and for the initial contact, please keep it as abbreviated as possible so that it can be routed to the appropriate person.  I know there are a lot of general complaints, but quite frankly, I've tried in the past to address concerns posted by several of the users here, and some attempts that I've made with factual information and honest replies have only been met with negative feedback and provocative remarks.
> 
> Thanks for your time, and I look forward to helping in any way that I can.  I'm sorry this is such a lengthy post, but it's been so long that I've posted that I wanted to offer some explanation and information for everyone.  I'll keep it brief in the future!




Moving on, *the one issue that I was specifically asked to address on this thread is to clarify the relationship between our company and the two resorts in Mass.  Festiva Resorts does not own or manage either Southcape or Sandcastle.  *Further, we do not own NEVS or Outfield.  Outfield is the company we have hired to offer *optional* upgrades 

If that is the case, then why does the Festiva POS for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts state that Festiva is the _Developer_ and NEVS in the _Seller_?  If they are the 'developer' and NEVS is just a 'seller' for Festiva- that would indicate to me that the relationship you describe above is NOT the case.  See verbatim quotes from the POS below.

Festiva Resorts Adventure Club                        p 1
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Public Offering Statement
1.Names and Principal Addresses of Developer and Seller: Location of Timeshare Properties

The Developer of the Festiva Adventure Club (the ‘Club) is Festiva Development Group, LLC ( “Festiva” or the “Developer”), a Nevada limited liability company with a principal address of One Vance Group Road, Asheville, North Carolina 28805

The Seller of Club Memberships in Massachusetts is New England Vacation Services, LLC (“NEVS”), a Massachusetts limited liability company with a principal address of 135 E. Hickory, Denton, Texas 76201. Pursuant to and Affiliation Agreement between Festiva and NEVS, NEVS has prepared this Public Offering Statement, based upon information provided to it by Festiva, and is offering Club Memberships (“memberships”) for sale in Massachusetts for its own account.


from p 6

V. Managing Entity (ies)

The operation of the Club is the responsibility of the Association, which is a South Carolina non-profit, non-stock corporation. The Members of the Association consist of all owners of Points, including the Developer, which is deemed to be the owner of all unpaid Points. The location of the Associations principal place of business is One Vance Gap Road, Asheville, North Carolina 28805. Each Member, other than the Developer, will be a Class A Member of the Association and is entitled to cast one (1) vote for each Point that he or she owns. The Developer (or any Appointee) is a Class B Member of the Association and is entitled to cast three (3) votes for each Point that the Developer owns. The Class B Membership will be converted to Class A Membership as of the first of July 1 of any year on which more than ninety percent (90%) of the Total Points in the Club have been sold to Members other than the Developer. Further, for as long as the Developer or any Appointee holds a Membership or a debt secured by a Security Interest in a Membership, the Developer is entitles to appoint at least one member of the Association’s Board.

The Developer currently controls the Association, and the Developer has the right to retain control of the Association after a majority of Points has been sold.

ChrisH


----------



## ecwinch

ChrisH said:


> If that is the case, then why does the Festiva POS for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts state that Festiva is the _Developer_ and NEVS in the _Seller_?  If they are the 'developer' and NEVS is just a 'seller' for Festiva- that would indicate to me that the relationship you describe above is NOT the case.  See verbatim quotes from the POS below.



Festiva is the developer of the Festiva Adventure Club. The POS is for the Festiva Adventure Club.

This is public information and does not refute FestivaRep's comments about an ownership interest in NEVS or Outfield. 

She has disclosed that NEVS/Outfield is selling FAC.

No mystery here. If this was the POS for Southcape, then it would be a different story.


----------



## ChrisH

*In my mind*

the mystery is:

NEVS purchased the resorts for $1.2 million

NEVS mortgaged the resorts for $2.5 million the same day

FESTIVA is not on those documents  BUT in the POS

FESTIVA is the _DEVELOPER _ and

NEVS is a _SELLER_

why would someone take out a mortgage for $2.5 million if someone else is the developer and they are just the 'sales force'????  Sounds fishy to me!  Unless FESTIVA has some other relationship with NEVS/Outfield that is hidden in the convolution of the paperwork.  

Chris


----------



## tombo

ChrisH said:


> Moving on, *The Members of the Association consist of all owners of Points, including the Developer, which is deemed to be the owner of all unpaid Points. The location of the Associations principal place of business is One Vance Gap Road, Asheville, North Carolina 28805. Each Member, other than the Developer, will be a Class A Member of the Association and is entitled to cast one (1) vote for each Point that he or she owns. The Developer (or any Appointee) is a Class B Member of the Association and is entitled to cast three (3) votes for each Point that the Developer owns. The Class B Membership will be converted to Class A Membership as of the first of July 1 of any year on which more than ninety percent (90%) of the Total Points in the Club have been sold to Members other than the Developer. Further, for as long as the Developer or any Appointee holds a Membership or a debt secured by a Security Interest in a Membership, the Developer is entitles to appoint at least one member of the Association’s Board.
> 
> The Developer currently controls the Association, and the Developer has the right to retain control of the Association after a majority of Points has been sold.
> 
> ChrisH*


*

Typical Festiva owner friendly policies.

1. "The association consists of all owners of points including the developer." The developer doesn't pay assessments or MF's, but they are members of the associatioN.

2. "The developer owns all unpaid points" . So the developer gets to vote all unpaid points while not paying any upkeep, assessments, or MF's on the points they own.

3. "The association's principal place of business is Festiva's address." So basically what we have always known, the association is and exists purelly for the benefit of Festiva.


4. People who join FAC become Class A Members. Class A  members get ONE VOTE PER POINT OWNED in the association.

5. The developer or any appointee GETS TO CAST THREE VOTES FOR EACH POINT OWNED. The developer pays no MF's or assessments, but they get 3 votes per point owned while the members who are paying to keep the whole operation solvent only get one vote per point. What a deal for Festiva!

6. "Further, for as long as the Developer or any Appointee holds a Membership or a debt secured by a Security Interest in a Membership, the Developer is entitles to appoint at least one member of the Association’s Board."    Do you think that there is any incentive for the developer to ever divest themselves of their last membership and lose the right to APPOINT AT LEAST ONE MEMBER TO THE BOARD? And what does at least one member actually mean? At the Festiva resorts I am familiar with they appoint the majority of the board, thus controlling the votes and subsequently the MF increases, renovations, assessments, the choice of Mgt for the resort (usually Festiva becomes the mgt team), and anything else that suits them.

Every thing Festiva does is to benefit themselves on the backs of the owners IMO. There is some relationship between Festiva and Outfield/Cliff/NEVMS other than Outfield was hired to sell Festiva points IMO. If everyone keeps digging some information should come to light on the relationship. Outfiled/Cliff/NEVMS  is not letting them convert Southscape/Sandcastle weeks to Festiva points without something being in it for them. It could be that they are simply making money on the sales, but I feel sure that there is more to it than that because Cliff/Outfield/NEVMS could have sold the weeks he owned without Festiva. He didn't let them join his party for nothing.*


----------



## Classylassy523

tombo said:


> Typical Festiva owner friendly policies.
> 
> 1. "The association consists of all owners of points including the developer." The developer doesn't pay assessments or MF's, but they are members of the associatioN.
> 
> 2. "The developer owns all unpaid points" . So the developer gets to vote all unpaid points while not paying any upkeep, assessments, or MF's on the points they own.
> 
> 3. "The association's principal place of business is Festiva's address." So basically what we have always known, the association is and exists purelly for the benefit of Festiva.
> 
> 
> 4. People who join FAC become Class A Members. Class A  members get ONE VOTE PER POINT OWNED in the association.
> 
> 5. The developer or any appointee GETS TO CAST THREE VOTES FOR EACH POINT OWNED. The developer pays no MF's or assessments, but they get 3 votes per point owned while the members who are paying to keep the whole operation solvent only get one vote per point. What a deal for Festiva!
> 
> 6. "Further, for as long as the Developer or any Appointee holds a Membership or a debt secured by a Security Interest in a Membership, the Developer is entitles to appoint at least one member of the Association’s Board."    Do you think that there is any incentive for the developer to ever divest themselves of their last membership and lose the right to APPOINT AT LEAST ONE MEMBER TO THE BOARD? And what does at least one member actually mean? At the Festiva resorts I am familiar with they appoint the majority of the board, thus controlling the votes and subsequently the MF increases, renovations, assessments, the choice of Mgt for the resort (usually Festiva becomes the mgt team), and anything else that suits them.
> 
> Every thing Festiva does is to benefit themselves on the backs of the owners IMO. There is some relationship between Festiva and Outfield/Cliff/NEVMS other than Outfield was hired to sell Festiva points IMO. If everyone keeps digging some information should come to light on the relationship. Outfiled/Cliff/NEVMS  is not letting them convert Southscape/Sandcastle weeks to Festiva points without something being in it for them. It could be that they are simply making money on the sales, but I feel sure that there is more to it than that because Cliff/Outfield/NEVMS could have sold the weeks he owned without Festiva. He didn't let them join his party for nothing.



Tombo ...

From what you have written here am I safe in assuming that what was once a week that was helping to support the resort could change hands and at some future time still be exchanged but not help support the resort any longer?

Could this scenario happen?  Mr. Brown owns a week in July at Sandcastle and has paid his MFs and SAs diligently through the years.  He turns his deeded property over to FAC and gets his points.  A few years down the road Mr. Brown gets fed up with trying to get a decent week at a resort and is tired of paying MFs and membership fees in II or any other system.  He quits the FAC.  Now this week in July no longer has a paying member of FAC.  Does this unit join the Developers bag of tricks as an unpaid unit and in doing so, it no longer supports the resort? 

Jean


----------



## Classylassy523

*Two entities ... two developers??*



ChrisH said:


> the mystery is:
> 
> NEVS purchased the resorts for $1.2 million
> 
> NEVS mortgaged the resorts for $2.5 million the same day
> 
> FESTIVA is not on those documents  BUT in the POS
> 
> FESTIVA is the _DEVELOPER _ and
> 
> NEVS is a _SELLER_
> 
> why would someone take out a mortgage for $2.5 million if someone else is the developer and they are just the 'sales force'????  Sounds fishy to me!  Unless FESTIVA has some other relationship with NEVS/Outfield that is hidden in the convolution of the paperwork.
> 
> Chris



Chris ...

I could be wrong but I think there are two entities .... no nessarily separate to outward appearances.  From what I can see NEVS is the developer of Sandcastle Resort and Festiva is the developer of FAC.  NEVS also is a seller for Festiva of FAC.  Everything is so convoluted and twisted around each other that it can be very confusing.  I think Tombo said it correctly ... some where, some how, some way, Festiva/NEVS/Outfield are all hooked at the hip and it is going to take some deep digging and sharp looking to find it.  Not one of these entities are in this for any other reason other than to line their pockets and fatten their bank accounts.

Jean


----------



## tombo

Classylassy523 said:


> Tombo ...
> 
> From what you have written here am I safe in assuming that what was once a week that was helping to support the resort could change hands and at some future time still be exchanged but not help support the resort any longer?
> 
> Could this scenario happen?  Mr. Brown owns a week in July at Sandcastle and has paid his MFs and SAs diligently through the years.  He turns his deeded property over to FAC and gets his points.  A few years down the road Mr. Brown gets fed up with trying to get a decent week at a resort and is tired of paying MFs and membership fees in II or any other system.  He quits the FAC.  Now this week in July no longer has a paying member of FAC.  Does this unit join the Developers bag of tricks as an unpaid unit and in doing so, it no longer supports the resort?
> 
> Jean



Yes, at most Festiva affiliated resorts any unpaid, reposessed inventory becomes festiva's property to own, sell, and vote. Most of the time they start out at resorts by buying all of the HOA owned inventory or unsold inventory from a prior developer. Any developer weeks which haven't been converted to Festiva Points are festiva's as are any unsold or reposessed festiva points. Festiva pays no MF's, assessments, or taxes on any festiva owned week or points. So yes when Mr Brown quits paying for his points festive will own the points, vote the points, resell the points, but they won't pay any associated expenses for upgrading or maintaing any resort that the points have an underlying deed for.

It is worse than that. Mr brown owns nothing but some imaginary Festiva points. If festiva shuts it's doors or files bankruptcy, the points unlike a deeded week are worthless. If Festiva remains solvent and even if Mr Brown still pays his FAC dues each year, Festiva doesn't have to send a penny of Mr brown's money to the resort he used to own a week at because he is no longer paying to maintain a particular resort he owns, he is paying to be a member of Festiva Adventure Club.


If Festiva likes resort A and has a lot of sales for resort A, they can shift money paid into the festiva Adventure club by members who used to own weeks at resorts B, C, and D and pay all of the expenses at resort A. The people who used to own at resorts B,C,and D no longer own anything there. When they pay their annual MF's and assessments, Festiva can spend their money anywhere they want and for anything they want. It is no longer a particular resort's owners or mf's, it is now Festiva Adventure Club's money to spend as Festiva sees fit. Festiva can spend extra money on a resort where they own a lot of unsold inventory renovating and maintaining it better to help sales while putting very little cash towards the upkeep at resorts where they are almost sold out like resorts b, c, and d. Then festiva can then assess and/or raise MF's at resorts b, c, and d to cover the shortfalls.

Of course Festiva owes the resorts x-$ per week owned at the resort, and they supposedly have to pay that. Actually they don't because they control the votes on the board. They can reduce the amount owed per week to a level that will not support resorts B,C,and D using their festiva appointed board. Then of course all weeks members at B,C, and D will have to pay higher MF's and possible assessments to cover the money siphoned out to other Festiva resorts. Also if things get tough they can simply give the weeks they own back to resorts B, C, and D and walk away from them. They get to keep all the former owners they converted to Festiva points from the resort as paying FAC members while leaving resorts B,C, and D without enough owners to survive.

These are not probable scenarios, but these are things that could happen because of the way that Festiva makes you pay FAC for 30 years because you joined their points club, but guarantees you nothing but access to their club's available inventory. It is stated that resorts in the FAC are subject to change, so what you used to own is not necessarily a resort you will be able to continue to visit.


----------



## ecwinch

Classylassy523 said:


> Chris ...
> 
> I could be wrong but I think there are two entities .... no nessarily separate to outward appearances.  From what I can see NEVS is the developer of Sandcastle Resort and Festiva is the developer of FAC.  NEVS also is a seller for Festiva of FAC.  Everything is so convoluted and twisted around each other that it can be very confusing.  I think Tombo said it correctly ... some where, some how, some way, Festiva/NEVS/Outfield are all hooked at the hip and it is going to take some deep digging and sharp looking to find it.  Not one of these entities are in this for any other reason other than to line their pockets and fatten their bank accounts.
> 
> Jean



Jean has the two developers part correctly. FestivaRep has denied the other allegation, so that part is opinion. The mortgage issue is conjecture, but is an interesting question that is awaiting FestivaRep's reply.

So the scorecard look like:

NEVS is the developer for SandCastle
Festiva is the developer for FAC
NEVS is also selling FAC

NEVS has decided to offer SandCastle owners the "privilege" of converting their SandCastle week into Festiva. So in that transaction, NEVS is selling FAC, and Festiva is the developer. Which is what you see in the POS.

Nothing in that POS document states that Festiva is the developer of SandCastle. The POS is for FAC.


----------



## Classylassy523

How come Sandcastle is not listed on the roster of Festiva Resorts?  I know it is not owned by Festiva or run by Festiva (it could be said that it is run by their lackeys), but FAC is being sold there.  Southcape is not owned or run by Festiva and it is listed on the Festiva website as a "_Resort that is not managed by Festiva_" and as the "_newest vacation destination for Festiva Adventure Club members"_. 

Is there any significance in the fact that both of these resorts are being sold to prospective FAC members (onsite) but only one is listed on the Festiva website?


----------



## ecwinch

My guess to Jean's question is the number of weeks that Festiva has access to at that resort. But just a guess. Perhaps it should be directed to FestivaRep for a reply.

Does anyone know how many developer weeks NEVS has at SandCastle?


----------



## Classylassy523

ecwinch said:


> My guess to Jean's question is the number of weeks that Festiva has access to at that resort. But just a guess. Perhaps it should be directed to FestivaRep for a reply.
> 
> Does anyone know how many developer weeks NEVS has at SandCastle?



That was one of my questions to FestivaRep in my post of August 1, 2009,


----------



## Sou13

*415 Sandcastle conversions*

A quick reply to whoever was wondering how many Sandcastle owners have converted to FAC.  There are 425 recorded as of 7/17/2009.  Most of them converted before Festiva was registered to do business in Massachusetts.
https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.PGM


----------



## ChrisH

*Google Festiva Resorts and see their 'newest' address!!!!!!!*

Just googled Festiva Resorts to see if there were any new reports and lookee, lookee - they have a NEW address in Denton, TX - on good ole Hickory Street, who woulda thought!!!!  



Festiva Resorts LLC 135 E Hickory St Denton, TX 76201-4215 - (940) 565-0030
Write a review - Directions and more »
maps.google.com

Chris


----------



## Classylassy523

ChrisH said:


> Just googled Festiva Resorts to see if there were any new reports and lookee, lookee - they have a NEW address in Denton, TX - on good ole Hickory Street, who woulda thought!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Festiva Resorts LLC 135 E Hickory St Denton, TX 76201-4215 - (940) 565-0030
> Write a review - Directions and more »
> maps.google.com
> 
> Chris



The rent is probably so high on that building and these people being responsible citizens, they are all sharing the rent and utilities.  Trying to eliminate any extras to help out us poor owners.


----------



## Carolinian

Sou13 said:


> A quick reply to whoever was wondering how many Sandcastle owners have converted to FAC.  There are 425 recorded as of 7/17/2009.  Most of them converted before Festiva was registered to do business in Massachusetts.
> https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.PGM



That is an appalling number of victims of this ripoff.  I wonder if the AG will take action to defend the owners who were conned back before Festiva was registered to do business?

In dealing with the local AG, the proceedings by AG's of other states should be stressed.  The message should be that other state AG's are protecting their consumers from these scam artists, and the local AG should follow their lead.  The fact that the very same scammers invovled in these other states have been unleashed on local citizens should also be mentioned.

Maybe the AG can force them to unwind the conversions that occured before the registration to do business.


----------



## e.bram

ChrisH and SOU13 and other ma. dwellers:
Since you guys(neuter) live in ma. ,why not see if you can get some help in a ma. law school legal clinic or "shame on you" expose' thru a local TV station. They might be able to help at no cost.


----------



## Classylassy523

e.bram said:


> ChrisH and SOU13 and other ma. dwellers:
> Since you guys(neuter) live in ma. ,why not see if you can get some help in a ma. law school legal clinic or "shame on you" expose' thru a local TV station. They might be able to help at no cost.



I already contacted the ABC affiliate in Boston and sent them the footage from the NC ABC station.  I didn't even receive an acknowledgment.  In the same vein, I did contact the NC station that had the news about Festiva and told them they were doing the same thing in Massachusetts.  At least he (the newscaster/reporter) responded.  He said that they may revisit the story and he could include my information.


----------



## Classylassy523

*The latest stalling tactic*

Three or more weeks ago I sent an email to Cliff Hagberg.  Among other things I requested the list of Sandcastle owners.  His response was:  He had turned the request over to the Board of Trustees.  Yesterday I replied back and brought it to attention that I had not heard any thing further from him or the Board.  His response and I quote:  "We have your request and it is on the agenda for the next board meeting in the fall. "

So now instead of blatantly breaking MA law by saying a flat NO, they are just putting people off and still not providing the list.

I can't help but wonder what some or all of us have done in another life to be exposed to this bunch of hooligans.  How can they so blatantly lie, steal, cheat, and break laws and nothing is done by the authorities?

I have a feeling that any of us who contacted the MA AG all got the same 'canned' response.  It is disheartening to say the least.


----------



## mweinberg

Classylassy523 said:


> I have a feeling that any of us who contacted the MA AG all got the same 'canned' response.  It is disheartening to say the least.



Does the MA AG complaint form have a space asking what specific remedy you seek?  I just wonder what would happen if a complaint focused only on the narrow issue of the owners' list, asking the AG to help in obtaining the list under MA General Law.  Also, maybe the same complaint could be sent to the BBB.

Michael


----------



## Carolinian

Who regulates timeshare in Massachusetts?  In North Carolina, it is the Real Estate Commission, and that is the entity that has provided the most real help against overbearing and lawbreaking developers/management, not the AG.  The Real Estate Commission has put some pressure on behind the scenes a number of times that got overbearing developers to turn over the reins of control.  In at least one instance, at Bodie Island Beach Club, they opened a formal investigation which led to the loss of control by the developer and the homeowners gaining control, and also led to the loss of the developer's real estate license.


----------



## ecwinch

Classylassy523 said:


> Three or more weeks ago I sent an email to Cliff Hagberg.  Among other things I requested the list of Sandcastle owners.  His response was:  He had turned the request over to the Board of Trustees.  Yesterday I replied back and brought it to attention that I had not heard any thing further from him or the Board.  His response and I quote:  "We have your request and it is on the agenda for the next board meeting in the fall. "
> 
> So now instead of blatantly breaking MA law by saying a flat NO, they are just putting people off and still not providing the list.
> 
> I can't help but wonder what some or all of us have done in another life to be exposed to this bunch of hooligans.  How can they so blatantly lie, steal, cheat, and break laws and nothing is done by the authorities?
> 
> I have a feeling that any of us who contacted the MA AG all got the same 'canned' response.  It is disheartening to say the least.



They can do whatever they want unless owners work together to take action against the developer and assert their rights.


----------



## Carolinian

ecwinch said:


> They can do whatever they want unless owners work together to take action against the developer and assert their rights.



That is absolutely the key.  You HAVE to get organized if you are going to stop this travesty.


----------



## Sou13

*Division Of Professional Licensure*



Carolinian said:


> Who regulates timeshare in Massachusetts?  In North Carolina, it is the Real Estate Commission, and that is the entity that has provided the most real help against overbearing and lawbreaking developers/management, not the AG.  The Real Estate Commission has put some pressure on behind the scenes a number of times that got overbearing developers to turn over the reins of control.  In at least one instance, at Bodie Island Beach Club, they opened a formal investigation which led to the loss of control by the developer and the homeowners gaining control, and also led to the loss of the developer's real estate license.


Application for Complaint


----------



## Classylassy523

*Weekly Meetings*

Does anyone know about the weekly group meetings that Cliff has been having with owners at Sandcastle this summer?  I don't know if it is just owners or if anyone can attend.


----------



## Carolinian

Sou13 said:


> Application for Complaint



This looks like a complaint against a real estate licence, which is a different thing.  Depending on the facts, as at Bodie Island Beach Club, a developer's personal real estate license may also get sucked into a timeshare investigation, but this is not the primary focus of the complaint that needs to be made.

You need to determine how proactive your Commission is in investigating timeshare management.  Hopefully you will find someone as proactive and consumer-friendly as Blackwell Brogden was during his many years at the NC Real Estate Commission.  Brogden not only took on the small fry developers like the one at BIBC, but he would tangle with anyone he did not think was giving consumers a fair shake, up to and including RCI.  When RCI Points first tried to come into North Carolina, Brogden opened an investigation of them and ginned up interest among his colleagues in other states.  Brogden held his ground and would not let them operate as an exchange system in the state unless they made some substantial changes in the way they first rolled out GPN/RCI Points.  RCI waved a white flag and caved in to Brogden's demands.  If you are lucky to find someone like Brogden at your Real Estate Commission, I am sure he will tear NEVS and Festiva into little pieces.

If Festiva was selling before it was registered that is one complaint that should be made.  If you can find some people who got conned into converting in that time period, maybe Festiva can be forced to give them their money and weeks back.


----------



## ChrisH

*None while I was there*



Classylassy523 said:


> Does anyone know about the weekly group meetings that Cliff has been having with owners at Sandcastle this summer?  I don't know if it is just owners or if anyone can attend.



They didn't have this during week 27 - July 4 - 11; I think they started just after that. (and I think it was related to all the stuff here on TUG - if you go read all the complaints to NEVMSLLC during that timeframe.)

Chris


----------



## ChrisH

*TO: NEVMSLLC - or anyone else with the MA address*

What is the correct postal mailing address for NEVMS LLC in Massachusetts?  I mailed items to 93 Hawes Avenue and they came back.  

If I want to mail you something what is the postal address.

If anyone else has this mailing address, please let me know.
Thanks


----------



## FestivaRep

ecwinch said:


> NEVS is the developer for SandCastle
> Festiva is the developer for FAC
> NEVS is also selling FAC
> 
> NEVS has decided to offer SandCastle owners the "privilege" of converting their SandCastle week into Festiva. So in that transaction, NEVS is selling FAC, and Festiva is the developer. Which is what you see in the POS.
> 
> Nothing in that POS document states that Festiva is the developer of SandCastle. The POS is for FAC.



That's correct, Festiva is the Developer of the FAC, NOT Sandcastle or Southcape.


----------



## mweinberg

*Outfield Marketing*

Wow, talk about being a glutton for punishment!  I just got a call from someone at Outfield Marketing who wanted to hear all about my experience meeting with one of their reps at the Sandcastle early last month.  I gladly enumerated all the lies I had been told and the pressures that were exerted on me.  When she asked if I had been treated courteously, I told her that I thought it pretty discourteous to treat someone like a complete idiot who was going to believe anything he was told.

She asked why I had decided not to convert to points, and I told her that it was partly because I was lied to and partly because I wasn't shown anything in writing, just a bunch of vague oral promises.  She asked me if I wanted her to fax me a copy of the contract so I could see what it actually said, and I told her that the only way I'd consider doing business with them is if they fired the rep I had spoken to and repudiated their sales tactics. Obviously, they weren't going to do that.

If any of you want to discuss your experiences dealing with an Outfield rep, their office manager is Trishia Morrow, and she can be reached at (800) 436-9094.  Maybe if they get enough complaints, they'll get the message.

Michael


----------



## FestivaRep

M. Weinberg;
Here are answers to the questions you sent me today.

_1.  Does the relationship between Festiva and Outfield extend beyond simply hiring them for outside sales? _
No.

_2.  Do Festiva and Outfield have any board members in common?_ 
No.

_3.  Is Outfield owned, in whole or in part, by Festiva?_ 
No.

_4.  Does Outfield provide sales services for any organizations other than yours?_ 
Yes.

_5.  Why on earth would Festiva keep on such an underhanded organization which has been the cause of so much trouble and of so many complaints? 
_
Any complaints received by Festiva against Outfield sales tactics are addressed quickly by our owner services department. Outfield has always been responsive in resolving sales complaints received by our office. 

In June, we promoted someone who has worked in several departments of Festiva as the Corporate Trainer for all sales sites.  After spending about a month at our corporate office working with all departments, she has been traveling for the last month to all of our sales sites to ensure that the reps are properly trained on the FAC product and are given accurate and up to date information to pass on to customers.  She also had a training session with Outfield reps in MA (I think as recently as last week), so that should prevent any further misinformation about Festiva and the Adventure Club from coming from any Outfield reps.  She will continue to act as a liaison between our corporate office and all sales sites to ensure that anyone who sits through a presentation about the FAC is given complete and accurate information about the product. 

_6.  How is it that Southcape is listed on the Festiva website as a "member of Festiva's family of resorts"?_ 
There are Southcape owners who have upgraded to the Festiva Adventure Club. Therefore, we list Southcape as a resort that is available for use by Adventure Club members. 

_7.  Did the Southcape homeowners approve this affiliation?_ 
Festiva’s agreement is with the resort developer. If there is a requirement to have such an affiliation (II or RCI) approved by the homeowner’s association, the owners should discuss that issue with the resort developer. 

_8.  Are the homeowners receiving anything in return?_ 
Festiva is not the developer or manager of the resort and would not be involved with any discussions with the homeowner’s association. 

_9.  Does Festiva own a majority of the intervals at Southcape?_ 
No. 

_10. How many Festiva memberships have been sold at the Sandcastle and Southcape?_ 
This would be a question for the resort developer. 

_11. Does Festiva really have sufficient inventory to list either or both of these resorts as trading opportunities?_ 
Yes.


----------



## mweinberg

FestivaRep said:


> M. Weinberg;
> Here are answers to the questions you sent me today.
> 
> _1.  Does the relationship between Festiva and Outfield extend beyond simply hiring them for outside sales? _
> No.
> 
> _2.  Do Festiva and Outfield have any board members in common?_
> No.
> 
> _3.  Is Outfield owned, in whole or in part, by Festiva?_
> No.
> 
> Yes.



Thank you for your responses.  You might be interested to know, though, that when Outfield Marketing called me to ask about my experiences when I spoke to one of their representatives at the Sandcastle on July 1, the message they left on my answering machine said, "This is" so-and-so "from the Outfield Marketing division of Festiva Adventure Club."  Assuming that your answers to me are true, and I have no reason to doubt them, your firm should be VERY concerned that Outfield is misrepresenting not only your product, but their relationship with you as well.  Yet you seem pretty sure that this is the firm that you want selling your memberships.  I still have to wonder why that is.  I know that if I were hiring an outside firm to represent me publicly, I'd want to make very sure they were representing my honestly.  I just thought you'd want to know.

Michael


----------



## Classylassy523

*Please answer my questions ....*

FestivaRep ...

The next time you are online and on this thread, I would be very appreciative of your time to answer my questions in Post 368 of this thread.

Thank you.


----------



## ChrisH

NEVS bought all the winter weeks, all units weeks 1-10 and weeks 45-52., plus some foreclosure inventory. They are now waiting to convert enough people to FAC and get those additional deeds under the Festiva name so that the owners association will ALWAYS be outnumbered by their votes, no matter what. Once they get more than enough deeds to cover their a**es, then they will start selling weeks - but only as FAC I bet, no deeded weeks.

I think that's why the special assessment bills haven't gone out. They don't want us to be able to 'out vote' them and eliminate non-emergency repairs.

This opinion was brought to you by ChrisH, and it is published here as solely the opinion of ChrisH, and is not intended to indicate that it is the opinion of anyone else.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Special Assessment*

Do owners at Sandcastle have the right to demand an accounting of what the special assessment is going to be used for?  If we have a problem with how the money is going to be spent and hold back some or all of the assessment, does management have the legal right to deny us access to our units?


----------



## tombo

mweinberg said:


> Thank you for your responses.  You might be interested to know, though, that when Outfield Marketing called me to ask about my experiences when I spoke to one of their representatives at the Sandcastle on July 1, the message they left on my answering machine said, "This is" so-and-so "from the Outfield Marketing division of Festiva Adventure Club."  Assuming that your answers to me are true, and I have no reason to doubt them, your firm should be VERY concerned that Outfield is misrepresenting not only your product, but their relationship with you as well.  Yet you seem pretty sure that this is the firm that you want selling your memberships.  I still have to wonder why that is.  I know that if I were hiring an outside firm to represent me publicly, I'd want to make very sure they were representing my honestly.  I just thought you'd want to know.
> 
> Michael



I hope you kept that answering machine message. It will be helpful to have that to present to the AG and to give to an attorney if the owners ever do mount a law suit against Festiva/Outfiled/Nevs. Do not erase that message.


----------



## Carolinian

ChrisH said:


> NEVS bought all the winter weeks, all units weeks 1-10 and weeks 45-52., plus some foreclosure inventory. They are now waiting to convert enough people to FAC and get those additional deeds under the Festiva name so that the owners association will ALWAYS be outnumbered by their votes, no matter what. Once they get more than enough deeds to cover their a**es, then they will start selling weeks - but only as FAC I bet, no deeded weeks.
> 
> I think that's why the special assessment bills haven't gone out. They don't want us to be able to 'out vote' them and eliminate non-emergency repairs.
> 
> This opinion was brought to you by ChrisH, and it is published here as solely the opinion of ChrisH, and is not intended to indicate that it is the opinion of anyone else.



Is the resort open during weeks 1-10 and 45-52?  Some of those at least should be maintenance weeks which do NOT vote.  If the resort is closed, then any week when the resort is closed should be a non-voting maintenance week.

Owners really need to get any attorney involved in this mess soon.


----------



## Craig

*Due Sept 30 $883.94*

Received the special assessment bill in the mail today...$883.94 due by Sept 30. I own 2 weeks, I know others own more. This is rediculous.


----------



## Classylassy523

*We have got to stop them*

I haven't received my 'special assessment' yet, but I am in NC so that could be the snail mail.  From what I have heard, everyone is being charged the same whether they own a 1-bedroom or studio.  That doesn't seem right to me.  And, were the MFs handled the same way, everyone was charged the same?   Like anything else associated with Cliff, NEVS, Outfield and Festiva, this smells bad.

The renovations to the Sunset Room and the old motel should have been put to a vote by the owners.  These are common areas.  Are the renovations to the Sunset Room necessary for the safety and health of those staying there.  I may be wrong, but I think the 'special assessments' are only to be used for repairs or renovations that are necessary for well-being and safety.  I could be wrong.  I think that is why the Trust says they have to be voted on by the owners. 

It would seem to me that we should be entitled to a detailed report of how this money is going to be spent ... detailed, not general.  What are we getting for *our* money.

Then we should be provided with the information of where this money is coming from ... individual owners and corporate owners (such as Festiva or NEVS or Outfield Marketing).  I want to see in black and white what Festiva is paying.  If we are all being charged the same per unit, then I want to see how many units Festiva or its Trust owns.  I want to know that they are paying SAs just like the rest of us.  If not, then I want to know WHY? 

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

We need to get moving to do what ever is necessary to *stop these people*.  They lie, steal, threaten, coerce and blatantly break MA laws.  We have to step up and claim our rights as owners.  They are walking all over us.  We need to do whatever is necessary to protect ourselves.  Whether it means hiring a lawyer or lawyers, filing complaints with the state and federal governments, taking our stories public via television or radio, and/or starting a class action suit that could include any and all timeshare owners throughout the country who have fallen prey to Festiva, NEVS and Outfield Marketing.  *We have to organize and move forward.*  We have all worked hard to buy our unit(s) and to pay to maintain them.  Now we should be able to enjoy them without being used by these companies to support their agenda and treating us like second class citizens.


----------



## ChrisH

The MF's are usually not the same - get charged more for the 1 BR than the studios.  At least that how my bills have been coming for 25+ years.  But then we had different owners, didn't we?


----------



## Pat H

ChrisH said:


> The MF's are usually not the same - get charged more for the 1 BR than the studios.  At least that how my bills have been coming for 25+ years.  But then we had different owners, didn't we?



I do know that white week owners paid only 1/2 the m/f of red week owners, don't know about size.


----------



## ChrisH

I have always paid the same amount for red week studio and white week studio - same unit, same size different weeks - and higher MF for the white week 1 BR same week as the white week studio.  The original MF's were calculated based on square footage I believe, but could be wrong.


----------



## ecwinch

Classylassy523 said:


> We have to step up and claim our rights as owners.  They are walking all over us.  We need to do whatever is necessary to protect ourselves.  Whether it means hiring a lawyer or lawyers, filing complaints with the state and federal governments, taking our stories public via television or radio, and/or starting a class action suit that could include any and all timeshare owners throughout the country who have fallen prey to Festiva, NEVS and Outfield Marketing.  *We have to organize and move forward.*  We have all worked hard to buy our unit(s) and to pay to maintain them.  Now we should be able to enjoy them without being used by these companies to support their agenda and treating us like second class citizens.



Amen. 

You can either continue to vent on FestivaRep, and gripe and moan here on TUG about the actions they are taking. Or you can organize into a group to take action to stop them.


----------



## mayorpw

: 





ChrisH said:


> I have always paid the same amount for red week studio and white week studio - same unit, same size different weeks - and higher MF for the white week 1 BR same week as the white week studio.  The original MF's were calculated based on square footage I believe, but could be wrong.



you are mistaken, again, and again this is just your opinon


----------



## ChrisH

I have the bills and payments and I pay the SAME amount for a red week and a white week IN THE SAME STUDIO UNIT but I am billed a different/higher amount for a WHITE WEEK that is a ONE BEDROOM unit.  That is a FACT and NOT AN OPINION.


----------



## Classylassy523

ChrisH said:


> I have always paid the same amount for red week studio and white week studio - same unit, same size different weeks - and higher MF for the white week 1 BR same week as the white week studio.  The original MF's were calculated based on square footage I believe, but could be wrong.



From what I have always understood, the MF for a studio was 1/2 that of the 1-bedroom, no difference between either red, blue or white time.


----------



## Classylassy523

Looks like Cliff is back from his vacation.


----------



## mayorpw

cant debbie in the office clerify that? thats who i call


----------



## Pat H

I owned a week 15 studio and still own a week 29 studio. I had them both for a few yrs and the white week m/fs were exactly half of the red week. I do know that for a fact! Do you think it has to with the building we own in? I own in the Coachman.


----------



## Craig

MFs are much lower (by approximateley half) for WEEK 40 and later for all units...


----------



## mayorpw

it does, there are 2 sets of maint. fees depending on the week and size


----------



## Classylassy523

Craig said:


> MFs are much lower (by approximateley half) for WEEK 40 and later for all units...



I own a 1-bedroom unit in Week 40.  I paid $512.08 for the 2009 MF


----------



## mayorpw

dunes bldg all same regardless of week


----------



## Craig

Craig said:


> MFs are much lower (by approximateley half) for WEEK 40 and later for all units...



I should have stated that this refers to Coachman units...


----------



## Classylassy523

mayorpw said:


> dunes bldg all same regardless of week



Are you saying that studio and 1-bedroom pay the same MF regardless of week?


----------



## mayorpw

no i am not a 1 bedroom has 1 m/f and a studio has 1 m/f


----------



## Classylassy523

mayorpw said:


> no i am not a 1 bedroom has 1 m/f and a studio has 1 m/f



So the MF for a 1-bedroom is the same no matter what the week and the MF for a studio is the same no matter what week?  That is the rule in the Dunes Bldg.?  What is the rule for the Coachman Bldg.?


----------



## mayorpw

you probably need to call the resort and speak to someone in the office to tell you. i dont want to give wrong info


----------



## Classylassy523

*Interesting post from "Sandcastle P'town Weeks Owners - please check here" thread*

Scare tactics 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We were threatened by both the angry woman in the lobby and the salesman. When we turned down their offer of a meeting, the woman said that we will lose rights by not going to the meeting. Later, the salesman told my husband that we will never be able to exchange for July and August weeks if we didn't buy points. 
The woman in the lobby is hurting Sandcastle's reputation; she sits there, glaring at everyone that comes in, no identification as a time share rep, and someone may well believe that she is a Sandcastle rep, when she is not.
Our assessments are going up to pay for these underhanded, aggressive con artists to destroy our resort!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by chark : August 16, 2009 at 08:26 AM. 

Read this post from yesterday.  Interesting activities at Sandcastle.  

Oh sure, the aggressive sales people have been reined it.


----------



## strummer

Regarding NEVMS mailing address: If they get mail they ignore it anyway. The Outfield reps ignore emails and regular mails. NEVMS has no letterhead of any kind that I have seen. As I have asked before, what honest, legitimate business person would not have a letterhead and published address, phone or email contact. Offering one-way responses while fighting back and forth with timeshare owners on this site is  juvenile.


----------



## ChrisH

*OOPS! It's OCTOMAN*



mayorpw said:


> you probably need to call the resort and speak to someone in the office to tell you. i dont want to give wrong info



Put in a few cents worth,  

then it got a little more complicated - or maybe conflicting?:whoopie:  

  Did something get let out of the bag?  

Now it's call the office - HMMMMMMM??   

Could this be a persona of  

OCTOMAN!!!  :ignore: 

:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:


----------



## mayorpw

ChrisH said:


> Put in a few cents worth,
> 
> then it got a little more complicated - or maybe conflicting?:whoopie:
> 
> Did something get let out of the bag?
> 
> Now it's call the office - HMMMMMMM??
> 
> Could this be a persona of
> 
> OCTOMAN!!!  :ignore:
> 
> :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:



just because someone comes on this site and helps to answer a question that is not in your click you automatically accuse them of being someone else just to conflict that is why so many people probably dont respond because of fools like you who if we dont agree with you we are wrong.


----------



## ecwinch

ChrisH said:


> Put in a few cents worth,
> 
> then it got a little more complicated - or maybe conflicting?:whoopie:
> 
> Did something get let out of the bag?
> 
> Now it's call the office - HMMMMMMM??
> 
> Could this be a persona of
> 
> OCTOMAN!!!  :ignore:
> 
> :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:



Even if it is, what purpose is served by continuing to bring it up? There was no biased information in the post. As we have seen from a similar thread, not every person understands the background involved, and can interpret your comment as being mean and hostile. It just demeans the tone of the discussion.

Can we keep the posts to the issue being discussed, rather than speculation that this is an alias of another person? If you have specific concerns about TUG rules being violated then report it to the mods.


----------



## Sou13

*Hear!  Hear!*

I agree with Eric on this one, even though we haven't always agreed on everything.  We are trying to keep these related Southcape and Sandcastle discussions informative and near the top of the search engines so that we can be found by those owners who need info about what's been going on since NEVS bought the "developer's rights" (which by law should no longer exist) to the Southcape and Sandcastle resorts.

Many of us never realized we had anything in common until we discovered the discussions on TUG.  Now that we realize that we are "sister" (or "brother"?) resorts, we need to all hang together or we'll all hang separately (that's part of our New England heritage).


----------



## Sou13

*Back to the MF discussion*

For Sandcastle owners who are wondering why the MF isn't the same for all units, it's probably based on the unit size, not the week.  We Southcape owners were told at our annual meeting that Massachusetts law does not allow a timeshare resort to charge a different MF for different times of the year.

This is another big downside of Festiva.  The prime summer weeks are worth more points, which makes the Festiva MF for those weeks higher than the deeded owners are paying.  So the only way for Outfield Marketing to continue to scare deeded owners into converting to FAC is for Festiva to demand upgrades and renovations which require special assessments.  And of course NEVS will comply because it's 75% Outfield Marketing controlled, and the other 25% is NEVMS! 

This might not be allowed by Massachusetts law, just another point to make in all those complaints to the AG!


----------



## Pat H

Sou13 said:


> For Sandcastle owners who are wondering why the MF isn't the same for all units, it's probably based on the unit size, not the week.  We Southcape owners were told at our annual meeting that Massachusetts law does not allow a timeshare resort to charge a different MF for different times of the year.



Let me say it again! The m/f for white weeks in the Coachman building is half the amount of a red week for the same size unit.


----------



## ChrisH

*For those of you hoping to hear from Cliff by email - he's back in town*

NEVMSLLC  
Status: Guest 
*Last Activity: August 20, 2009 04:11 PM 
Viewing Forum US - Eastern @ 04:11 PM  
*


----------



## mayorpw

*maint fee*



Sou13 said:


> For Sandcastle owners who are wondering why the MF isn't the same for all units, it's probably based on the unit size, not the week.  We Southcape owners were told at our annual meeting that Massachusetts law does not allow a timeshare resort to charge a different MF for different times of the year.
> 
> This is another big downside of Festiva.  The prime summer weeks are worth more points, which makes the Festiva MF for those weeks higher than the deeded owners are paying.  So the only way for Outfield Marketing to continue to scare deeded owners into converting to FAC is for Festiva to demand upgrades and renovations which require special assessments.  And of course NEVS will comply because it's 75% Outfield Marketing controlled, and the other 25% is NEVMS!
> 
> This might not be allowed by Massachusetts law, just another point to make in all those complaints to the AG!



these fees were put in place by the old owners not nevs and noone complained before. why now?


----------



## Sou13

*Reply to mayorpw*

Well, mayorpw, you don't appear to be an owner either here or at Southcape, so if you are, why don't you stand up and be counted?

If you knew anything at all about the history of the Sandcastle and Southcape Resorts you wouldn't be asking "why now?"


----------



## Sandy VDH

So what are people doing about the SA?


----------



## ChrisH

*Festiva Resorts - eliminates use of OUTFIELD at Peppertree - why not at the Cape???*

http://www.festivaresorts.com/pvtc_generalinfo.php



Outfield Marketing

Outfield Marketing is a third party company hired by Festiva to present and sell the Festiva Adventure Club to various fixed week owners along with members of the PVTC. Outfield Marketing predominantly sold the Festiva Adventure Club by setting up appointments to come to members’ homes. *On May 6, 2009, Festiva made a decision to restrict Outfield Marketing from contacting PVTC members from that date on.  *
You should no longer receive calls from Outfield Marketing sales personnel who wish to come to your home to discuss the Festiva Adventure Club. If you receive such a call *p**lease take the person’s full name and contact the Festiva Owner Services department at 866-933-7848.* Festiva sales or marketing personnel may contact you and ask you to visit a resort for a sales presentation or may contact you while you are at the resort; however, you will not be asked to allow someone to come to your home.

They just don't learn - do they!


----------



## ChrisH

*See how good your FESTIVA - FAC points REALLY ARE!!!!!*

Festiva Resorts - Rangeley Lake - Points Chart - check out this chart 

http://www.festivaresorts-rangeleylake.com/index.php/points-chart.html

Think you're going up to MAINE with your FESTIVA POINTS?

NOPE

*Your 4th of July holiday, 1 BR oceanfront unit *at Sandcastle FAC points *WON"T*  get you 

a 'red' week in Maine

a 'gold' week in Maine

a 'holiday' week in Maine

but you can go in the 'OFF SEASON"  - isn't that special


----------



## Classylassy523

ChrisH said:


> Festiva Resorts - Rangeley Lake - Points Chart - check out this chart
> 
> http://www.festivaresorts-rangeleylake.com/index.php/points-chart.html
> 
> Think you're going up to MAINE with your FESTIVA POINTS?
> 
> NOPE
> 
> *Your 4th of July holiday, 1 BR oceanfront unit *at Sandcastle FAC points *WON"T*  get you
> 
> a 'red' week in Maine
> 
> a 'gold' week in Maine
> 
> a 'holiday' week in Maine
> 
> but you can go in the 'OFF SEASON"  - isn't that special



Ask Outfield about that and they would put a spin on that would make you think that everyone goes to the beach in the middle of winter in Maine.


----------



## Classylassy523

*The annual meeting in April*

Timesharemogul ...

How many owners were at the annual meeting?  From conversations I have had, most people didn't get a notice of the date and time.  I sure didn't.  Did the management company, that is costing us $10,000 a month, make an executive decision to only notify people within a certain limited number of miles from the Cape?  Did they think that owners wouldn't drive?  Or, were they trying to control the number of people who would show up?  Cliff brags about the number that attended compared with previous years.  What he fails to say is why that number of people were there.  It certainly wasn't because they were happy owners and content with what was happening.  

I know, they limited the notifications to save postage.  That's it, that's the ticket.  Some great mind at NEVMS decided to save postage.  Doing that probably allowed them to purchase an upgraded version of the 'security cameras' that are now in place around the resort.  You know the cameras I am talking about.  The ones that are watching what is happening because management wants to know just who is leaving notes under the doors warning people about Outfield and everything else that is happening at our resort.  NEVMS has their priorities and unhappy owners at the annual meeting didn't take precedence over the ever watchful eyes of the 'security' cameras.

Do you have any idea how many of those people who attended that meeting post on TUG or know about TUG?  I can imagine there are many who read the posts but don't necessarily post their own thoughts or questions.  It would be nice if we had a copy of the owners list, then we could contact them and let them know about TUG.  Of course, management and the Board of Trustees wouldn't want that to happen.  They don't even like owners talking among themselves while they are at the resort.  Cliff even threatened one owner with the police if she didn't stop talking.

Does Cliff where a uniform?  Does he patrol the grounds with a large dog and a whip?  It is sad, very sad, that our resort isn't the comfortable, peaceful, restful place it has been for so many years.  All because a few miserable people are greedy and don't care what they do or who they hurt, as long as they get their way.

We have got to stop them, some how, some way.


----------



## Classylassy523

*They have control*



ChrisH said:


> http://www.festivaresorts.com/pvtc_generalinfo.php
> 
> 
> 
> Outfield Marketing
> 
> Outfield Marketing is a third party company hired by Festiva to present and sell the Festiva Adventure Club to various fixed week owners along with members of the PVTC. Outfield Marketing predominantly sold the Festiva Adventure Club by setting up appointments to come to members’ homes. *On May 6, 2009, Festiva made a decision to restrict Outfield Marketing from contacting PVTC members from that date on.  *
> You should no longer receive calls from Outfield Marketing sales personnel who wish to come to your home to discuss the Festiva Adventure Club. If you receive such a call *p**lease take the person’s full name and contact the Festiva Owner Services department at 866-933-7848.* Festiva sales or marketing personnel may contact you and ask you to visit a resort for a sales presentation or may contact you while you are at the resort; however, you will not be asked to allow someone to come to your home.
> 
> They just don't learn - do they!



How can Festiva tell Outfield they can't sell at Southcape or the Sandcastle?  They (Outfield) controls the Board of Trustees at each resort.  And, isn't that convenient?  Gets Festiva off the hook, they can look the innocent party, and Outfield continues to spew their lies, half truths and threats.  And, we have Cliff walking around telling people that they (NEVS and Outfield)  just want to make the resorts better for the owners.  Yeah right!  That is why they are taking away the deeds every opportunity they get.


----------



## Sou13

*Martha Coakley for Congress?*

Are you a MA voter who's happy with what Martha Coakley has been doing for timeshare owners?  Here's your opportunity to express your opinions!  

When I learned that Martha Coakley had filed for replacing "Ted" Kennedy I had to wonder how an AG who doesn't seem to be enforcing Massachusetts laws or even investigating lawbreakers can possibly be fit for *making* laws for the entire country!


----------



## Classylassy523

*This could be positive or negative, depending on how we approach it*

It goes without saying that AG Coakley is going to be very busy the next few weeks.  She has a lot to accomplish is a short amount of time.  Maybe if we make enough noise to the politicians who oversee that part of the state, and we get their attention, they will have a talk with her about how they like to keep their constituents happy, and unhappy voters don't help someone win an election, unless it is the opposition.  Maybe if she knew how many people are being terrorized by NEVS, NEVMS, Outfield and Festiva she would have second thoughts about brushing us aside.  Newspapers, radio stations and televisions stations will be poking into her record, background and history.  We could always give them something to look at.  We certainly have enough proof that we have been trying to get her to help us.

If we work at it hard enough, maybe we could get this to work to our benefit.


----------



## Corky

If you go to the Festiva web site, Southcape is listed as one of the Adventure Club resorts but Sandcastle isn't.  I called and ask the Festiva rep to explain this.  She had to check with her supervisor who explained that Sandcastle has "limited" inventory at the moment (meaning not enough deeded 'weeks' owners have signed on to pts), and won't be on the web site until more owners convert to points.

Until the inventory increases, only Sandcastle owners who converted to Festiva will have access to the limited Sandcastle inventory.  And to do that, they will need to phone in.

Does anyone know the percentage of Southcape weeks that have been converted?  The number of Sandcastle units??  The rep couldn't tell me how many more are needed.


----------



## Sou13

*Well you may ask!*

Back in November 2008 when I met with Greg Hughes at Southcape Resort there were only 30 registered Southcape conversions on record at Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access yet Southcape Resort was already listed in the "Festiva Family of Resorts"!  Even if all the conversions were recorded at once, there were only 60 recorded by 12/10/2008.  That's 60 out of a total of 51x55 timesharing weeks at Southcape Resort! 

I can't help but question the answer FestivaRep gave you, especially since I was under the impression that Sandcastle can't be officially affiliated with the FAC until 2010, and it involves substantial necessary improvements to the resort.


----------



## Sou13

*Previously posted by Eric*

Hopefully some of the owners, even those that opt out - run away - will still be able to file complaints with the AG based on MGL 93A Consumer Protection - Chapter 93A: Section 2. Unfair practices; legislative intent; rules and regulations 

Section 2. (a) Unfair methods of competition and unfair or deceptive acts or practices in the conduct of any trade or commerce are hereby declared unlawful. (includes fraud, deceit, misrepresentation of facts, pressure sales tactics)

RE04R08: Chapter 93A, Consumer Protection and Business Regulation for Real Estate Brokers and Salespersons

V. ILLEGAL PRACTICES UNDER 93A

A. Fraudulent or willful intent need not be proven.

B. Heightens licensee responsibility for statements and omissions

C. Licensees responsible for everything they know

D. Grey area of responsibility is what a licensee should have known

E. "Puffing’ is now illegal. 93A does not distinguish between opinion and fact.

F. Other illegal actions and misrepresentations

   	1. Any oppressive or otherwise unconscionable act or statement

 	2. Failure to comply with laws meant for the protection of the public's health, safety or welfare

 	3. Fraud or misrepresentation such as misstatements of facts in negotiations that lead to a contract

 	4. Seller provides a licensee false information and licensee relates this to buyer, without identifying seller as licensee's sole                      source of information, then broker is liable.

 	5. Making false claims about a property's construction, durability, safety or strength

 	6. Making false claims concerning the ease with which a property can be repaired or maintained

 	7. Making false claims about financing terms or availability

 	8. Substituting something different than what is advertised ("bait and switch")

 	9. Offering guarantees without disclosing the nature and extent of the guarantees

10. A broker may be held liable for a misstatement in advertising even if the broker later informs a prospective buyer of the error.

           11. Claims or representations concerning any real or personal property which directly, or by omission, serves to deceive a buyer in any material respect.

          12. Failing to disclose to a tenant or prospective tenant any fact that may have influenced the tenant not to enter into the transaction

13. Even though the true facts are subsequently made known to the buyer, the law is violated if the first contact or interview is secured by deception.

G. Generally, a violation of M.G.L. c. 142A (Regulation of Home Improvement Contractors) is automatically a violation of M.G.L. c. 93A,

"A practice may be deceptive if it reasonably could be found to have caused the plaintiff to act differently than he otherwise would have acted...."

"It is an unfair and deceptive act under Chapter 93A for real estate sellers to affirmatively misrepresent the truth if they are aware of it."

Fraudulent acts include false advertising; high-pressure sales tactics; “bait and switch schemes” (where one product or service is offered but another actually delivered); billing fraud, and use of contract language that misleads consumers. 

The Law
Both Massachusetts and United States laws prohibit the use of "unfair or deceptive" practices by businesses. These practices are regulated by the Federal Trade Commission at the federal level and by the Attorney General's Office of Consumer Protection at the state level. 
Both the federal and state laws prohibit a series of specific practices and, in addition, prohibit any other practice that is determined to be unfair or deceptive to the consumer. These laws typically provide both for enforcement by the government to stop the practice and individual actions for damages brought by consumers who are hurt by the practices. This article will describe the kinds of actions that are prohibited by these laws and how consumers can use these laws to their advantage.
Who is covered by the law?
The Massachusetts Act limits coverage to unfair and deceptive acts "in the conduct of trade or commerce." This means that to be covered, the person committing the unfair or deceptive act must be in business. Sales between two private individuals, neither of whom are in the business of regularly selling are generally not covered by the Act. Therefore, a sale of a used car by the owner of the car wouldn't be covered if the owner is not otherwise a car dealer. Other than this basic category of exceptions, however, the law applies very broadly to most commercial transactions including real estate rentals and sales, to service businesses, and to any type of commercial sale of goods. 
The Massachusetts law is also limited in its coverage of phone solicitations and other kinds of transactions that involve out of state sellers. These kinds of transactions are covered by the Federal law because they involve actions in more than one state. The federal law is very much like the state one and generally prohibits the same.

Unfair and Deceptive practices are just what they sound like. They take place when someone in the position of a seller acts unfairly to or deceives a buyer. In Massachusetts the common types of unfairness and deception are specifically prohibited by Attorney General regulations but even if not mentioned specifically in the regulations, any other act that meets this definition is unlawful. In deciding whether a practice not specifically mentioned in the law is illegal, the courts consider whether it violates some established concept of fairness, whether it is immoral or unethical, whether it is likely to cause substantial harm to consumers and whether it is dishonest and/or violates the general notion of fair dealing between sellers and buyers.

Some Examples of Unfair or Deceptive Practices
Massachusetts regulations provide some specific examples of actions that are considered unfair and deceptive. Below are some examples of these actions:
False advertising and other misrepresentations - advertising and statements which have the tendency to mislead are illegal. These include:

actual false statement in advertisements about a products quality, ingredients, or effectiveness 
fake testimonials and endorsements 
pictures of the wrong merchandise in ads trying to sell some other item that imply the picture is of the item being sold 
faked pictures of the product performing in a way that it cannot actually perform 
Use of prices in ads that are not the real price of the merchandise described or pictured 
Advertising sale items that are not actually available to convince people to visit the sellers store or business or sending flyers with some sale items and some sale items where the actual items that are on sale are not clearly identified. 
"Bait and Switch" advertising - this is a technique by which the seller advertises an item for sale at a particularly good price or on particularly good terms but does not really want to sell that item. When the consumer comes to their business after seeing the advertisement the seller discourages the purchase of the advertised item and instead tries to convince the buyer to purchase a different item for a higher price or on less favorable terms. The seller's techniques for discouraging the purchase of the object can vary and can include refusing to demonstrate, show or discuss the advertised item, representing that the item is not a good product or it has a poor guarantee or doesn't work properly, demonstrating a defective or poorly performing example of the product, and failing to have the item available to purchase (unless the advertising accurately and clearly stated the limitations on availability). 
Deceptive statements of guarantees in advertisements - the statement must identify the nature of the guarantee and who is offering it (the manufacturer, the seller or someone else), what parts of the product are covered and what is required of the consumer to make a claim under the guarantee. 
If an ad says that a product is "unconditionally guaranteed" or says "satisfaction or your money back" or words to that effect, the use of the term is deceptive unless the seller will refund the full purchase price, replace the product or repair the product and the BUYER has the right to choose which of these alternatives he or she wants. 
Deceptive Pricing Practices - The law also regulates the use of price representations and practices. Below are some of the common pricing practices that the law prohibits:

Claiming that the item is on sale by artificially and untruthfully pretending the product usually sells for a price higher than its normal price. The price represented to be the products "regular" price must be a real price that the product in fact sold for during some significant time in the recent past in the seller's own stores. 
Misrepresenting the price that the same product is sold at by competitors 
Placing fake price stickers on merchandise with higher than actual prices so that the product appears to be marked down when in fact it isn't 
Claiming that a product may be purchased for one price when in fact the actual price is higher 
Advertising an item at a very good price to induce customers to come in and then only selling the item at that price if the purchaser also buys another more expensive product. 
Using the terms "special price" or "priced for sale" or "clearance priced" or similar terms when the items are not being sold at reduced prices and without clearly disclosing the actual former price or the percentage reduction from the former price that is actually being offered. 
Charging for good or services at higher rates than the marked, published or advertised price; 
Giving an unrealistically low estimate for a job in order to get it and then charging for a variety of "extras" to increase the price of the job when those extras should clearly have been included in the regular price of the job. 
This is by no means a complete list - these are only examples of the kinds of conduct that are covered. If you think the average person would consider a practice unfair or deceptive, it probably is.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Just what are Festiva's plans for Sandcastle*



Sou13 said:


> Back in November 2008 when I met with Greg Hughes at Southcape Resort there were only 30 registered Southcape conversions on record at Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access yet Southcape Resort was already listed in the "Festiva Family of Resorts"!  Even if all the conversions were recorded at once, there were only 60 recorded by 12/10/2008.  That's 60 out of a total of 51x55 timesharing weeks at Southcape Resort!
> 
> I can't help but question the answer FestivaRep gave you, especially since I was under the impression that Sandcastle can't be officially affiliated with the FAC until 2010, and it involves substantial necessary improvements to the resort.



The Outfield rep I was subjected to in October 2008 told me that Festiva hadn't committed itself to Sandcastle, and it would be a year before they did, and only if significant remodelling and renovations were completed.  So Cliff and his cronies are trying to collect just short of $3million to make Festiva happy.  In the meantime, Festiva continues to collect deeds.  For a company that may or may not affiliate with Sandcastle, they are certainly working hard to get deeds.  Do you think they have other plans?


----------



## e.bram

The good thing is as Festiva collects deeds(not many prime weeks, hopefully)they have to pay MFs. It's harder for them to bail out than individual owners, even has club members bail out of Festiva(not pay club dues)


----------



## Classylassy523

*Do you honestly believe that?*



e.bram said:


> The good thing is as Festiva collects deeds(not many prime weeks, hopefully)they have to pay MFs. It's harder for them to bail out than individual owners, even has club members bail out of Festiva(not pay club dues)



Oh if that were the case then it wouldn't be so bad.  Do you honestly think that Festiva is paying anything ... MFs or SAs?  Why do you think Cliff won't respond to requests to check out the books?  Why are deeded owners getting hit so hard with increases in MFs and then a SA that is raising almost $3 million dollars?  Cliff won't even tell us how he came up with the number of 3300 owners footing the bill for the SA.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Sandcastle employees are falling to the Festiva axe*

Word came out today that long time employees of Sandcastle, some who have been there 10 years or more, are being summarily dismissed.  Debbie in the office is one, there are 2 maintenance people and 2 more but don't know where they work.  Following the history of Festiva ... this is their modus operandi .. get in, get rid of any employees who might have an allegiance with the owners, especially those employees who have been kind, friendly and helpful.  Even quicker, get rid of anyone who knows the goings on behind the scenes.  

Last year when I was there for my week, the employees were already nervous, and it has gotten worse.  So there is a good chance when I go back this year I won't see any familiar faces, happy or otherwise.  I do know that I will be face to face with Brumhilda the Hun (the Outfield greeter) who sits in the lobby grabbing owners as they check in.  She is so miserable, grumpy and nasty that not one person I have talked with has had a decent thing to say about her.  If there was a way to check in without going into the lobby I would do it.


----------



## Classylassy523

*The King has spoken*

The latest word from the King of the Castle:
 Several employees were terminated recently for cause.  I won't identify the employees or the specific reason why they were terminated except to say that criminal prosecution was possible.

Please notice the terminology ... was possible.  Do you want to take bets on how true that is?   

I wonder if these long time employees are aware of that.  Sure wish I knew how to contact them and let them know what Cliff is saying about them.  The state labor board might be interested also.


----------



## Sou13

*Sandcastle Google Group*

How do Sandcastle owners who want to join the Sandcastle Google group find you?


----------



## Classylassy523

*Sandcastle Google Group*



Sou13 said:


> How do Sandcastle owners who want to join the Sandcastle Google group find you?



You have to contact one of the organizers and request membership.  Be prepared for a ton of email unless you set yourself up for digest reports and go to the group and read the individual emails.  

Check your group for an email from me ... 

Jean


----------



## Sou13

What I mean is, suppose I'm a Sandcastle owner browsing the Google groups to see whether there's a Sandcastle group.  I tried "Sandcastle Resort" and Sandcastle Provincetown and Sandcastle Massachusetts and Sandcastle owners and couldn't find you by doing a Google groups search!


----------



## Sandy VDH

Sou13 said:


> What I mean is, suppose I'm a Sandcastle owner browsing the Google groups to see whether there's a Sandcastle group.  I tried "Sandcastle Resort" and Sandcastle Provincetown and Sandcastle Massachusetts and Sandcastle owners and couldn't find you by doing a Google groups search!



Can someone invite me as well?


----------



## ecwinch

If I was going to get rid of an employee that might be a source of information for disgruntled owners after they were fired, I think I would raise the specter of criminal prosecution.  Both to discourage the employee from talking and to potentially taint any information they might be able to provide.

BTW is the Sandcastle master deed around anywhere?


----------



## Classylassy523

*Sandcastle master deed*

It is online at the Registry of Deeds -Barnstable County
http://www.barnstabledeeds.org/


----------



## Classylassy523

*Sandcastle owners group*

This is the email address, but it will probably get kicked back ... 

sandcastleowners@googlegroups.com

The group is called:

*SandcastleOwners*

http://groups.google.com/group/sandcastleowners

You will need to request membership.  I have emailed the organizer and requested to post her email address here for people to request membership.  You will have to provide your name, address, email address, your unit(s) and week(s).


----------



## Classylassy523

Sandy Lovell said:


> Can someone invite me as well?



Sandy, if you want to email me with your email address I will forward it to the organizer of the group and she will contact you.

Jean


----------



## Sandy VDH

Classylassy523 said:


> Sandy, if you want to email me with your email address I will forward it to the organizer of the group and she will contact you.
> 
> Jean



I created a google group logon, but I could not find a group called sandcastleowners?  Are you wrong about the name of the group?


----------



## Classylassy523

Copied it right off the screen.  They probably have it set up as private or some other setting to keep from public access without permission.  Just trying to control who gets on the list.


----------



## Classylassy523

Classylassy523 said:


> Oh if that were the case then it wouldn't be so bad.  Do you honestly think that Festiva is paying anything ... MFs or SAs?  Why do you think Cliff won't respond to requests to check out the books?  Why are deeded owners getting hit so hard with increases in MFs and then a SA that is raising almost $3 million dollars?  Cliff won't even tell us how he came up with the number of 3300 owners footing the bill for the SA.



Got an answer to the 3300 owners.  Cliff was quoted as saying there were 4000 owners.  When questioned why the SA was based on 3300 owners, his answer:    In order to be fiscally conservative, we had to factor in a delinquency factor.  We currently have 3300 owner paying their maintenance fees and that's the number we project factoring in both new delinquencies and sales to new owners.  

So paying owners are now held responsible for paying the share of those owners NEVS considers to be not paying.  And this is before they even know who is and who isn't paying.  That isn't being fiscally responsible.  The Board of Trustees should be actively pursuing collection and if that fails, then foreclosure.  That is being fiscally responsible.  They have a collection agency in California and according to Cliff's newsletter, they are aggresivley chasing down owners who don't pay.  And, shouldn't unpaid MFs and SAs be part of next years MFs.  Why do we have to pay others delinquencies in advance.  I would be willing to bet there is a legal problem in this.  I wonder if they even sent bills to these owners they don't expect to pay, and if they did and some paid rather than face the threat of lawsuits, does that mean money will be refunded?  Highly unlikely.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Sandcastle deed*



ecwinch said:


> If I was going to get rid of an employee that might be a source of information for disgruntled owners after they were fired, I think I would raise the specter of criminal prosecution.  Both to discourage the employee from talking and to potentially taint any information they might be able to provide.
> 
> BTW is the Sandcastle master deed around anywhere?



I have been able to get a copy of the Sandcastle deed.  It is in 4 PDF files.  If you are still interested in it, please email me and I will forward it to you.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Attention - Sandcastle Owners Who Are Victims Of Outfield Marketing*

Tom Mitchell, a Sandcastle owner, has an appointment on Wednesday, September 16, with the Mayor's Office of Consumer Protection which is the Local Consumer Protection Office of the Massachusetts Attorney General's Office in Springfield.  His intent is to carry information that will be useful in proving the acts of deceptive marketing carried out by the Outfield Marketing sales people.

If you turned over your deed(s) because you believed what you were told and later found it to be false, or because you were pressured or felt threatened, and now want your deeds back, contact Tom with your story.  He wants as many cases as he can gather to demonstrate to the advocate that there has been deception and wrong doing.  

The dealings with Outfield have to have taken place within the boundaries of Massachusetts but not limited to Provincetown.  If you met with them at the resort, then Tom wants to hear about it.  If they came to your home and you live in Massachusetts then send Tom your story.

If you live outside of Massachusetts, but the dealings happened in Massachusetts then Tom wants to hear from you, too.

If you know of other owners who would want to have their story presented to the advocate, please contact them and give them this information and Tom's email address

*Please do this as soon as possible as his meeting is this coming Wednesday.  *

*Tom's email address is:  tominspfld@gmail.com*

Thank you


----------



## Classylassy523

*Sandcastle Owners Google Group*

*Specifically for Sandcastle owners and former owners*

There is a group of owners and former owners keeping in contact and communicating among themselves ... the intent is to develop and carry out plans and programs to right the wrong that is going on at our resort.

If you would like to join this list please contact Beryl Soparkar and provide your name, address, phone number, email address, unit(s) and week(s) owned.  

Beryl's email address is:  BSopar@aol.com

Thank you


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Classylassy523 said:


> Word came out today that long time employees of Sandcastle, some who have been there 10 years or more, are being summarily dismissed.  Debbie in the office is one, there are 2 maintenance people and 2 more but don't know where they work.  Following the history of Festiva ... this is their modus operandi .. get in, get rid of any employees who might have an allegiance with the owners, especially those employees who have been kind, friendly and helpful.  Even quicker, get rid of anyone who knows the goings on behind the scenes.
> 
> Last year when I was there for my week, the employees were already nervous, and it has gotten worse.  So there is a good chance when I go back this year I won't see any familiar faces, happy or otherwise.  I do know that I will be face to face with Brumhilda the Hun (the Outfield greeter) who sits in the lobby grabbing owners as they check in.  She is so miserable, grumpy and nasty that not one person I have talked with has had a decent thing to say about her.  If there was a way to check in without going into the lobby I would do it.



None of this is true.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Classylassy523 said:


> Oh if that were the case then it wouldn't be so bad.  Do you honestly think that Festiva is paying anything ... MFs or SAs?  Why do you think Cliff won't respond to requests to check out the books?  Why are deeded owners getting hit so hard with increases in MFs and then a SA that is raising almost $3 million dollars?  Cliff won't even tell us how he came up with the number of 3300 owners footing the bill for the SA.



Festiva is paying their maintenance fees and their assessments.  I do respond to owner requests.  The number of owners includes a delinquency factor in order to be fiscally conservative.


----------



## mweinberg

NEVMSLLC said:


> None of this is true.



Then you are saying that no long-time employees at the Sandcastle have been fired?  Because in an email you sent to Hillard Forman on September 10 seems to contradict that statement.  In that email, you state that "Several employees were terminated recently."


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Festiva is paying their maintenance fees and their assessments.  I do respond to owner requests.  The number of owners includes a delinquency factor in order to be fiscally conservative.



So rather than budget a bad debt expense, you discount the number of owners that will pay the m/f and assessment. Is that a standard practice in the timeshare industry?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

mweinberg said:


> Then you are saying that no long-time employees at the Sandcastle have been fired?  Because in an email you sent to Hillard Forman on September 10 seems to contradict that statement.  In that email, you state that "Several employees were terminated recently."



Two employees were recently terminated.  Neither had ten years of service.  Debbie is still the resort manager and I have no idea who the other two are who were supposed to have been terminated.  

Perhaps you will answer a question for me.  Why is it that Mr. Forman and your group have refused to meet with me to try and answer your questions and resolve your issues?  I've offered many times to meet and it seems that none of your group is interested in meeting with me or learning the truth.  Instead I continue to see misrepresentations, defamatory statements and outright lies repeated by members of your group.  My concern is that those things are being represented by your group to other owners as facts when they are not.  I repeat my offer.  I'll be happy to meet with your group at your convenience.


----------



## Laurie

NEVMSLLC said:


> Debbie is still the resort manager


Cliff,

Are you saying that you are continuing to offer her the position of resort manager, with no end date?

Or do you mean that she still has that position at this moment (and will not in the foreseeable future, but you're not addressing that)?


----------



## ChrisH

*Meeting*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Two employees were recently terminated.  Neither had ten years of service.  Debbie is still the resort manager and I have no idea who the other two are who were supposed to have been terminated.
> 
> Perhaps you will answer a question for me.  Why is it that Mr. Forman and your group have refused to meet with me to try and answer your questions and resolve your issues?  I've offered many times to meet and it seems that none of your group is interested in meeting with me or learning the truth.  Instead I continue to see misrepresentations, defamatory statements and outright lies repeated by members of your group.  My concern is that those things are being represented by your group to other owners as facts when they are not.  I repeat my offer.  I'll be happy to meet with your group at your convenience.



Hi Cliff
I'd like to meet with you, at the Advisory Committee meeting that you have scheduled, with the owners you have appointed.  So, can we come?
ChrisH


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hi Chris

Not at the advisory committee meeting, we have an awful lot to go over, but any other time, I'd be happy to meet with you.

Cliff


----------



## ChrisH

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Chris
> 
> Not at the advisory committee meeting, we have an awful lot to go over, but any other time, I'd be happy to meet with you.
> 
> Cliff


Well Cliff, what if I just come and listen as you have a lot to go over I might learn a lot.  

Especially since, as an owner, I know nothing about this advisory committee, heard it through the grapevine so to speak - never got any mailing or notification, no elections were held, or if they were I didn't get a mailing/ballot.  Don't know who the people are, if they are owners or not, how they were selected etc. 

I think we should at least be allowed to attend and hear what is happening first hand.

Chris


----------



## mweinberg

ChrisH said:


> Well Cliff, what if I just come and listen as you have a lot to go over I might learn a lot.
> 
> Especially since, as an owner, I know nothing about this advisory committee, heard it through the grapevine so to speak - never got any mailing or notification, no elections were held, or if they were I didn't get a mailing/ballot.  Don't know who the people are, if they are owners or not, how they were selected etc.
> 
> I think we should at least be allowed to attend and hear what is happening first hand.
> 
> Chris



I don't think any of us are particularly comfortable about a closed meeting with a group of hand-picked representatives.  If you want to hear what owners think, perhaps we should all be invited to this meeting.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

mweinberg said:


> I don't think any of us are particularly comfortable about a closed meeting with a group of hand-picked representatives.  If you want to hear what owners think, perhaps we should all be invited to this meeting.



I'm willing to meet with your "group" anytime you'd like.  Why are you unwilling to do that?


----------



## Classylassy523

*Lordy, Lordy, Lordy*

*follow the be courteous rule or dont post*


----------



## nancyb

*Supercilious*

All the effort with the "emoticons" just adds up to disrespect and childishness.


----------



## Classylassy523

*follow the be courteous rule or dont post*


----------



## mweinberg

NEVMSLLC said:


> I'm willing to meet with your "group" anytime you'd like.  Why are you unwilling to do that?



First of all, our "group" isn't really a group as much as a loosely knit organization of deeded owners.  We have no officers or leadership, at least for now, and exist for the sharing of concerns and ideas.  The group consists of all deeded owners who have concerns about the Sandcastle, and, as I stated in my last posting, this is exactly who you need to be meeting with: all of us.

Also, keep in mind that we are scattered throughout the country, and most of us have full-time employment.  We are not paid $10,000 per month to manage a resort, so dropping our lives and making a trip to Cape Cod is not that easy.  I know that for me, the trip takes 7 hours by car and costs about $150 in gas and tolls.  And that doesn't even take into account the expense of spending a night on the Cape.

I suspect that you were aware of all this when you issued your generous invitation.  I don't pretend to speak for the other members of the group, but as far as I'm concerned, any meeting to discuss issues must be open to all interested deeded owners.  And that means ALL deeded owners, including the ones whose identity are known only to you since you refuse to turn over the owners' list as required by law.

Do you really feel that you need a meeting?  I'm pretty sure that by this point in time, you have a pretty good idea what the issues are.  The time for talking about them has passed; it is now time to resolve them.

Michael Weinberg


----------



## Jaidit

*We got the sales pitch*

I'm a Sandcastle owner (week 37 and I'm posting this from my unit).

I'm concerned about what the changes at Sandcastle will mean to me as an owner and I don't have a crystal ball to figure out what's happening and what's best for me.

My intention is to return to Sandcastle each year. Same place, same time. (I even just found that some friends have been in P'town for week 37 for years.) Exchanges and points don't work for me. Obviously, I want to see the maintenance fees kept low enough so that it beats the cost of a one-week rental or a week in a B&B.

We got the sales pitch. We met with Mike who told us that the weeks system was an 8-track and points were a CD. Actually, I thought we had a gramophone and I was happy with that. As far as I could figure out, Mike wanted me to give him my 8-track for the honor of buying a CD player at full price. And I've have to whitewash the fence for Tom Sawyer.

Confused, I went hunting on the Internet. I hoped that this discussion on TUG BBS would be illuminating, but there's more heat than light. Further, some of Cliff's statements don't seem to jibe with what Mike told us.

For example, on this thread, Cliff said that his goal is to have a proper HOA, as should have happened 20 years ago. Mike said that they were hoping to convert 90% of the owners to points. Who owns the weeks that owners give up in exchange for Festiva points? Festiva? Does that mean that Festiva hopes to own 90% of the resort? What happens to the interests of individual owers if the majority owner is a corporation? Is Festiva trying to turn Sandcastle into a hotel? (I fail to see a meaningful distinction between using the points system and going to a hotel.)

We've thought about various possible scenarios. Is it the churn on units generating profit? Will units turned over for Festiva points be resold once they are upgraded (at a higher profit, obviously).

It'd be nice to know what Festiva's interests are, what Outfield's interests are, and what Cliff's interests are. Do they want people like me to get lost? If their interests don't align with mine, I'd like to know. Yes, I'd like some transparency. Cliff?


----------



## Classylassy523

*Check out Festiva on the Internet*

If you want to learn about Festiva ... just Google Festiva, Outfield Marketing and read the horror stories.  Festiva has run afoul of Attorneys General in numerous states.  They are even in hot water with the Attorney General in North Carolina, where their corporate headquarters are located.

The deeded owners at Sandcastle have created a group on Google.  There are over 160 people who are trying to get control of our resort back, re-establish our rights and enjoy what we have worked hard to pay for.

If you would like to join us please email Beryl Soparkar at BSopar@aol.com.  Please request addition to the list and include your name, address, phone number, emai address, unit(s) and week(s) owned.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Response to Cliff Hagberg's claim to communicating with owners at Sandcastle Resort*

This is being posted at the request of the Soparkar family, owners at Sandcastle Resort, so that you can fully understand Cliff's willingness to meet, communicate and cooperate with owners.


We in our family have not found it easy to get specific information , with evidential papers, from Mr. hagberg, even with advance notice of several weeks. 
I wrote a detailed account of our family efforts to meet with Mr. Hagberg on Monday morning during our week 30 at the Sandcastle. This request was in response to Mr. Hagber's announcement at the April 25 owners meeting that any owner would be welcome to make an apointment and come into the office to see any records. I had first phoned for an appointment more than a month in advance of our week 30. The desk told me to email Mr. Hagberg for that appointment, and so I did. I got an immediate response from Mr. Hagberg asking me what I wanted to see. So I emailed back with a short list. He did  not respond to this second email of mine. I therefore typed up the same email in letter form and sent it to him certified mail, return receipt requested. 

The receipt came back to me. I then assumed that the meeting which I had requested for Monday morning of our week would be kept. My husband, two adult sons, and myself arrived Monday morning. Debbie said she knew absolutely nothing about any appointment, and Mr. Hagberg was not there.  We argued, and she finally phoned him and then asked if we would please return on Tuesday. We did so, although it greatly inconvenienced our grandchildren's plans. On Tuesday, he sat and chatted with us in friendly manner, but showed us no documents which we had requested. He said, however, that those documents were easy to get for us, and we should return that afternoon or Wednesday, and he would have them for us. However, he did produce a little paper which he told us to sign, saying we would not copy in any way, or record or take notes on, any of the material we saw. We refused to sign such a paper, since what we had requested was stated in our deeds that we have a right to see such things. A couple of hours later, one of our rooms received a phone call message from Mr. Hagberg's lawyer saying that he wished to speak to us before we came to see the documents. We returned the call immediately, but we had to wait until late on Wednesday to hear from the lawyer again. On Wednesday, the lawyer said that that was the first he had heard of our request, and it would take him a few days to provide the materials (which Mr. Hagberg had said were easy to show to us). We said no, we would be leaving on Saturday and could not wait a few days. 
As it was, our vacation week was torn with our inability to do things we wished to do with our children and grandchildren. Anyhow, the lawyer then said that he'd get the materials for us on Thursday afternoon. When we went at that time, the materials shown to us were few, not at all our original request or the lessened request we presented on Tuesday morning, two days earlier.. 
I wrote this report of our week trying to hunt down Mr. Hagberg and the documents he had said he would show to us. I sent that in email form to everyone on the owner list. This that I am writing now is done from memory, 6 weeks later. If there are any differences between this account and what I wrote two or three days after we got home on August 2, thent hat account is the more accurate. Son Peter then wrote up a very precise formal document which was sent to the Trustees through Mr. Hagberg, also a Trustee. That formal document is available to any who would like to see it. It is written by Peter Soparkar, on behalf of the entire family. 
My point is that talking in a friendly manner may happen with Mr. Hagberg, but when the request is about specific information or soecific answers or to see documents which we believe from the deeds and Mass. laws that we are entitled to see, we run into difficulties. In our case, it took up the whole week, still to fail to get what we requsted - and with no apology to us. In fact, Mr. Hagberg was not even present by then. So I think this answers Mr. Hagberg quite clearly. Both my original email description of the week and Peter's more formal letter about it to the Trustees are available for any to see.


----------



## mweinberg

mweinberg said:


> First of all, our "group" isn't really a group as much as a loosely knit organization of deeded owners.  We have no officers or leadership, at least for now, and exist for the sharing of concerns and ideas.  The group consists of all deeded owners who have concerns about the Sandcastle, and, as I stated in my last posting, this is exactly who you need to be meeting with: all of us.
> 
> Also, keep in mind that we are scattered throughout the country, and most of us have full-time employment.  We are not paid $10,000 per month to manage a resort, so dropping our lives and making a trip to Cape Cod is not that easy.  I know that for me, the trip takes 7 hours by car and costs about $150 in gas and tolls.  And that doesn't even take into account the expense of spending a night on the Cape.
> 
> I suspect that you were aware of all this when you issued your generous invitation.  I don't pretend to speak for the other members of the group, but as far as I'm concerned, any meeting to discuss issues must be open to all interested deeded owners.  And that means ALL deeded owners, including the ones whose identity are known only to you since you refuse to turn over the owners' list as required by law.
> 
> Do you really feel that you need a meeting?  I'm pretty sure that by this point in time, you have a pretty good idea what the issues are.  The time for talking about them has passed; it is now time to resolve them.
> 
> Michael Weinberg



Hey, I have an idea, Cliff.  Why don't you just call us all and schedule appointments to come to our homes and talk with us, just like Outfield tried to do last spring when they wanted to defraud us out of our deeds?  I mean, you do still have that huge budget for "visiting owners personally" in order to make sure we are aware of "the important changes that have been going on at the Sandcastle," right?

mweinberg


----------



## ChrisH

*Meeting*



NEVMSLLC said:


> I'm willing to meet with your "group" anytime you'd like.  Why are you unwilling to do that?



For the following reasons which you already know:

Because we live all over the United States and it isn't so easy.  
Because you refuse to give us the owners list - so many will be excluded and we would like anyone and everyone to have the opportunity to attend.

And I am willing to come to the upcoming meeting and be quiet, just take notes etc. and LISTEN to all the 'so many things' that must be covered as you say.

SO WHY AREN"T YOU WILLING TO DO THAT?  
Chris


----------



## e.bram

You have to got to court and subpoena  those records!!! Only way.


----------



## Sou13

*Churning*



Jaidit said:


> I'm a Sandcastle owner (week 37 and I'm posting this from my unit).
> 
> I'm concerned about what the changes at Sandcastle will mean to me as an owner and I don't have a crystal ball to figure out what's happening and what's best for me.
> 
> My intention is to return to Sandcastle each year. Same place, same time. (I even just found that some friends have been in P'town for week 37 for years.) Exchanges and points don't work for me. Obviously, I want to see the maintenance fees kept low enough so that it beats the cost of a one-week rental or a week in a B&B.
> 
> We got the sales pitch. We met with Mike who told us that the weeks system was an 8-track and points were a CD. Actually, I thought we had a gramophone and I was happy with that. As far as I could figure out, Mike wanted me to give him my 8-track for the honor of buying a CD player at full price. And I've have to whitewash the fence for Tom Sawyer.
> 
> Confused, I went hunting on the Internet. I hoped that this discussion on TUG BBS would be illuminating, but there's more heat than light. Further, some of Cliff's statements don't seem to jibe with what Mike told us.
> 
> For example, on this thread, Cliff said that his goal is to have a proper HOA, as should have happened 20 years ago. Mike said that they were hoping to convert 90% of the owners to points. Who owns the weeks that owners give up in exchange for Festiva points? Festiva? Does that mean that Festiva hopes to own 90% of the resort? What happens to the interests of individual owers if the majority owner is a corporation? Is Festiva trying to turn Sandcastle into a hotel? (I fail to see a meaningful distinction between using the points system and going to a hotel.)
> 
> We've thought about various possible scenarios. Is it the churn on units generating profit? Will units turned over for Festiva points be resold once they are upgraded (at a higher profit, obviously).
> 
> It'd be nice to know what Festiva's interests are, what Outfield's interests are, and what Cliff's interests are. Do they want people like me to get lost? If their interests don't align with mine, I'd like to know. Yes, I'd like some transparency. Cliff?


When NEVMSLLC posted that "NEVS is selling weeks. If you'd like to purchase..." I accessed the BROWNtech Document Management Systems and looked for all sales by New England Vacation Services from Sept. 1, 2008 to present. The only sales were to INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES!

I posted the entire history of sales and have noted that, while at first the "partial discharges" of the $2.5 million dollar mortgage were made to "Festiva Resorts" they are now being made to NEVS and then transferred to INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES *the same day*, and that furthermore the return address is no longer given as 
Bk-Pg:24034-148    Recorded: 09-15-2009 @ 3:23:42pm  Inst #: 53037  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Time Sharing Deed  Doc$: 1.00 
Desc: UNIT 32 TIME 1 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: ROUTE 28 

Gtor: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor) 

Gtee: INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES 
  6210 STONERIDGE MALL RD STE 140 
  PLEASANTON CA 94588​ 
Slick move but no *weeks* are being "sold" to timesharing weeks owners.  What appears to be happening is that instead of discharging weeks directly to Festiva as in the first instance
DOCUMENT ABSTRACT 
Bk-Pg:23537-176    Recorded: 03-18-2009 @ 10:05:13am  Inst #: 13836  Chg: N  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Partial Discharge 
Desc: UNIT 409 TIME 9 
Refers to Book: 23138-185 

Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 

Gtor: COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtor) 

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  FESTIVA RESORTS 
  1 VANCE GAP ROAD 
  ASHEVILLE NC 28805 

Recording Fee: 50.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00​...a more expensive route is now being taken because it now requires $200 in recording fees instead of $75!  How is this benefiting the resorts?


----------



## Classylassy523

*Letter from CAC, Inc.*

I have received a letter from Paul Schrader, Executive Director of the Consumer Assistance Council, Inc. (CAC), Hyannis, MA. I quote:

Dear Ms. Gallant,

I am writing in response to the complaint you filed with the Massachusetts Attorney General's Office against Sandcastle Resort/Festiva/Outfield marketing. Your complaint was sent to the Cape Cod Consumer Assistance Council (CAC) to attempt mediation.

Despite our efforts, the CAC was unable to resolve your complaint through mediation. I have been asked to return Sandcastle Resort complaints to the Attorney General's Office for further review and consideration.

The Attorney General's staff may be back in touch with you if they require additional information. We understand that this is a difficult issue and we appreciate your bringing your concerns to our attention.

Sincerely,
Paul Schrader
Executive Director

One thing that has either been omitted, overlooked in the writing of this letter, or not included are our complaints against NEVS LLC and NEVMS LLC. Now the CAC and/or the AGs office may be including them under the Sandcastle Resort name but I raise the question because I never filed a complaint against the Sandcastle Resort. I consider the resort itself separate from NEVS and NEVSMS about whom I filed complaints. 

My concerns now are that these complaints will get lost in the AG's office ... stuffed into a box, desk drawer or file cabinet ... and nothing will come of all our pleas for help.

I am asking that everyone who filed complaints and others who are sympathetic to our cause write the Massachusetts Attorney General and encourage them, demand, plea, or beg those who have received our documents do something to stop the travesty that is going on at the Sandcastle and Southcape resorts. 

The address is:
Massachusetts Attorny General
One Ashburton Place
Boston, MA 02108

In your letters please refer to the complaints filed by deeded owners and former deeded owners of timeshare intervals at Sandcastle Resort, Provincetown, MA and Southcape Resort, Mashpee, MA

There are many owners who are appreciative of any support and assistance others can provide us.


----------



## ChrisH

*Contacts:  Cape Cod Area Newspapers - Write to an Editor*

For those owners who wish to have their voices heard in the local Cape Cod media, here are some resources:

Letters Editor, 
Cape Cod Times 
319 Main St., Hyannis MA 02601. 
Letters may be faxed to: (508) 771-3292.
Editor in chief: Paul Pronovost, 508 862-1166
Editorial Staff: Newsroom staff list 
Ombudsman: Jayne M. Iafrate

The Cape Cod Chronicle 
60-C Munson Meeting Way, 
Chatham, MA 02633
508-945-2220 • 508-430-2700
Editorial Dept.: 508-945-2220
Production Dept: 508-945-2228
Advertising Dept: 508-945-2229
FAX: 508-945-2579

The Barnstable Patriot 
Submit Letter to the Editor 
4 Ocean Street
Hyannis, MO 01206
Phone: 508-771-1427 
Fax: 508-790-3997
letters@barnstablepatriot.com


The Provincetown Banner
167 Commercial St. 
PO Box 977 
Provincetown, MA 02657
Tel: 1 (508) 487-7400 
Free: 1 (888) 782-2267 
Fax: 1 (508) 487-7144


----------



## ChrisH

*Contacts: Cape Cod Area Govt Representation - US Senators*

For those who wish to voice their concerns to the Representatives in the Cape Cod Area or to our US Senators here are the contacts:

Senator Robert O’Leary
State House
Room 511B
Boston, MA 02133
Telephone: (617) 722-1570
Fax: (617) 722-1271
Robert.O'Leary@state.ma.us
DISTRICT REPRESENTED: CAPE AND ISLANDS.— Barnstable, precincts 1 to 9, inclusive, and 13, Mashpee, Provincetown, 

MATTHEW C. PATRICK - Mashpee
State House                                               District Office
Room 540 24                                              Collins Road
State House                                               P.O. Box 3252
Boston, MA 02133                                       Falmouth, MA 02536
Telephone: 617-722-2090                            508-540-6308
Facsimile: 617-722-2848 
E-mail: Rep.MatthewPatrick@hou.state.ma.us
RepMattP@Cape.com

JEFFREY D. PERRY - Mashpee
State House                                              District Office
Room 136                                                  49 Route 6A
State House                                              Post Office Box 1435
Boston, MA 02133                                      Sandwich, MA 02563
Telephone: 617-722-2396                            Phone: (508)-888-2158
Facsimile: 617-722-2819                             Fax: (508) 888-1179
Email: Rep.JeffreyPerry@hou.state.ma.us

SARAH K. PEAKE - Provincetown                   
State House                                              District Office
Room 473F 
State House 
Boston, MA 02133 
Telephone: 617-722-2210                           508-487-5694
Facsimile:617-722-2239 
E-Mail: Rep.SarahPeake@Hou.State.MA.US

US SENATORS - MA

John F. Kerry (Democrat) 
421 Russell Senate Office Building 
United States Senate 
Washington, D.C. 20510 
PHONE: 
1-202-224-2742 
FAX: 
1-202-224-8525 
E-MAIL: 
john_kerry@kerry.senate.gov 
WEB: 
http://www.senate.gov/~kerry/ 


Paul G. Kirk, Jr.
Democrat - Massachusetts 
317 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING
WASHINGTON DC 20510
DC Phone: 202-224-4543
Email: Senator_Kirk@kirk.senate.gov


----------



## Fig

ChrisH said:


> For those owners who wish to have their voices heard in the local Cape Cod media, here are some resources:
> 
> Letters Editor,
> Cape Cod Times
> 319 Main St., Hyannis MA 02601.
> Letters may be faxed to: (508) 771-3292.
> Editor in chief: Paul Pronovost, 508 862-1166
> Editorial Staff: Newsroom staff list
> Ombudsman: Jayne M. Iafrate
> 
> The Cape Cod Chronicle
> 60-C Munson Meeting Way,
> Chatham, MA 02633
> 508-945-2220 • 508-430-2700
> Production Dept: 508-945-2228
> Advertising Dept: 508-945-2229
> FAX: 508-945-2579
> 
> The Barnstable Patriot
> Submit Letter to the Editor
> 4 Ocean Street
> Hyannis, MO 01206
> Phone: 508-771-1427
> Fax: 508-790-3997
> letters@barnstablepatriot.com
> 
> 
> The Provincetown Banner
> 167 Commercial St.
> PO Box 977
> Provincetown, MA 02657
> Tel: 1 (508) 487-7400
> Free: 1 (888) 782-2267
> Fax: 1 (508) 487-7144



Chris, if you are working with any contacts at these papers, you may want to provide them with the link to this board so they can do a little research....it makes for an interesting story. A mystery at first, some great facts uncovered by owners, some wild postings under women and men's alias that all mysteriously came from the same IP address as Cliff Hagberg's...some claims by Cliff that have been factually challenged by owners. A key player who has been cited by the FCC for his role in marketing timeshares. A company who has been investigated by the AGs of several states. It's a treasure trove for any journalist who wants to spend a little time here.


----------



## Carolinian

*It can be done - Hanalei Bay boots out developer*

Hanalei Bay timeshare resort in Hawaii is out from under the thumb of Celebrity Resorts and now in full control of its timeshare owners, after settlement of a lawsuit filed April 2009. Celebrity surrendered control of the HOA board and the owners agreed to a buyout of its current management contract. The new homeowner-run board contracted the management to TPI. Celebrity will still own the resort restaurant and will be able to sell or rent the weeks it owns at Hanalei Bay. Celebrity had purchased unsold inventory and developer rights from the original developer of the resort.

The key is organizing, getting a lawyer, and getting the matter in court.

Timesharing Today magazine commented ''Yes, there is a storm brewing and 2010 may turn out to be significant in terms of owners organizing and taking action"


----------



## mamiecarter

*Somebody need to reform the intire timeshare/vacation trading industry*

It is awfull right now. something drastic has to happen to keep timeshares viable. Anybody want a free timeshare? There will soOn be lots of them. PEOPLE ARE WALKING AWAY FROM HOME MORTGAGES BECAUSE THEY ARE SO FAR UNDERWATED.  pEOPLE WILL SOON BE RUNNING NOT WALKING AWAY FROM TIMESHARES IF SOMETHING DOESNT CHANGE11111111


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## Sou13

Carolinian said:


> Hanalei Bay timeshare resort in Hawaii is out from under the thumb of Celebrity Resorts and now in full control of its timeshare owners, after settlement of a lawsuit filed April 2009. Celebrity surrendered control of the HOA board and the owners agreed to a buyout of its current management contract. The new homeowner-run board contracted the management to TPI. Celebrity will still own the resort restaurant and will be able to sell or rent the weeks it owns at Hanalei Bay. Celebrity had purchased unsold inventory and developer rights from the original developer of the resort.
> 
> The key is organizing, getting a lawyer, and getting the matter in court.
> 
> Timesharing Today magazine commented ''Yes, there is a storm brewing and 2010 may turn out to be significant in terms of owners organizing and taking action"


Here's the link to an article in TheGardenIsland.com:  http://kauaiworld.com/articles/2009/10/09/news/kauai_news/doc4acede86743e7924716948.txt


----------



## JackB62

*Letter from the lawsuit filer: Sandcastle and Southcape*

This has been given widespread distribution in MA:

Re: Southcape Resort & Club 950 Falmouth Rd. Mashpee, MA 02649, Sandcastle and Royal Coach condos, Rte 6A, Provincetown, MA

Dear Sirs:

This is being written in desperation. Ten thousand (10,000) Time Share Interval (TSI) owners in the above three (3) condominiums have been scammed out of their ownership of their common elements: Pools, Clubhouses, Tennis Courts, Physical Structures and all common areas by the confiscatory "take-over" of the three condos by individuals - two trustees- who have violated MGL St. #183-A and #183-B, the recorded condominium documents and the Mass. Corporate Laws as these pertain to the recorded condominium documents.

Incredibly, no owners of the intervals were given notice of the 2008 sale of their interests (ownership), as required by the condominium documents; the scheme came to light in March of 2009 when a special assessment notice was sent to all TSI owners. Amounts varied from $400 to $885 per interval owned. The anticipated revenue intended to be raised was in excess of $6,000,000.

                                          Completely Illegal

I, as an owner for 27 years, have initiated legal action on behalf of the Southcape resort against the current "owner" of our interests- New England Vacation Services (NEVS) whose president is Clifford Hagberg. I am attempting to obtain owners names and addresses, as prescribed by the Master Deed and MGL St. #183-B. He has not cooperated to many attempts to get this information.

I, and others, have sent numerous certified letters to the Massachusetts Attorney General; she has not helped at all! It seems she believes this is a civil, not a criminal, matter. I believe that taking my property away illegally is less than civil and more likely criminal.

This letter is a plea. We need your help. We are denied information that is mandated in our documents that we need to regain our rightful ownerships.

Very Truly Yours,

Alfred J. Ewald, Southcape I, Unit 30.


----------



## mweinberg

*An Open Letter to Cliff Hagberg*

_Although Mr. Hagberg has refused to answer correspondence from owners who have complained about his business, he does find time to make daily visits to this website.  Therefore, I am posting a copy of this email which I sent Mr. Hagberg this morning in the hope that he will see it here and respond appropriately:_

Dear Mr. Hagberg:

In your email dated October 5, 2009, you indicated that you would respond to my repeated questions and concerns through the office of the Consumer Assistance Council, because "to respond in any other forum would . . . be inappropriate."  Yet just a week later, I received a letter from the Consumer Assistance Council stating that you had refused to cooperate with their mediation process.  Since you will reply neither to my personal emails nor my official complaints, I can only assume that you have no intention of replying to the legitimate concerns expressed by a Sandcastle owner.

I had hoped that some time between then and now, you might have found time to reply to my concerns.  You have, after all, found time to continue your daily visits to the Timeshare Users' Group bulletin boards to make sure that you're aware of what people are saying about you.  I hate to think that these visits are funded by the exorbitant salary you draw for managing the Sandcastle.

I'd like to remind you that as trustee for the Sandcastle, according to both the master deed and Massachusetts law, you have a responsibility to me and to other owners.  By refusing to answer questions, you are in breach of these responsibilities of trust.  Therefore, I call on you to either answer my legitimate concerns as an owner or to step down from your position as trustee.  I fully expect that as an owner, all of my questions and concerns will be addressed in a timely manner by the people who are legally entrusted with representing my interests.  And I expect that all future questions will be answered as well.  After all, had you been forthcoming with answers and information, no one would have felt compelled to complain in the first place.

Sincerely,

Michael Weinberg


----------



## ChrisH

*And now for the TRUTH - Festiva Fees 2010*

From:  Festiva Resorts                                                   November 10, 2009

Dear Sir or Madam

This year has been an exciting year for the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club, but we sure aren’t sad to see it go.  2009 has been a tough year for nearly everyone and the Adventure Club is no exception.  On the positive side, there have been some great additions to the Adventure Club this year and there are more to follow in 2010 and beyond.  We would like to take this opportunity to update you on these recent additions and inform you of some exciting future additions and some unfortunate changes that may not be as pleasant.
Festiva Resorts has added four fantastic destinations for members to choose from.  All are not available for your next vacation with the Adventure Club.  From skiing in Maine to Mardi Gras in New Orleans, or from relaxing on the beach in one of America’s oldest cities to fall leaf watching in New England, the Adventure Club has made it available for you.
•	Rangeley Lake Resort in Rangeley, Maine
•	Frenchmen Orleans 519 in New Orleans, Louisiana
•	Ocean Gate Resort in St. Augustine, Florida
•	Southcape Resort & Club in Cape Cod, Massachusetts
During 2009 we heard feedback from many of our members that were not happy with the $89 multiple reservation fee that was charged for any stay booked after the first reservation transaction.  We are happy to announce that effective immediately the $89 multiple reservation fee has been eliminated and there will be $0 charge for making multiple reservations.
Festiva Resorts has added nearly 4,000 new members to the Adventure Club through its sales efforts in 2009, bringing total membership to nearly 16,000 members.
We would also like to remind you that you may accelerate a future year’s allotment of points and/or rent additional points in order to complete any reservation.
Unfortunately the Adventure Club has seen the effects of the economic recession just as it has impacted many other industries, businesses and individuals.  In 2009 we have seen an increase in delinquencies and defaults.  As a result the Adventure Club is facing some very large deficits in 2010.  In order to face those deficits head on and to ensure that the Adventure Club continues to fulfill its mission of providing superior products and services to its members, the maintenance fee structure is being adjusted to include nearly $1.7 million in expected bad debt and defaults.  To be straightforward, that will result in an increase in fees for everyone.  At this time the assessments have not been completed and we will not have the specific maintenance fees amounts available until immediately before your invoice is mailed.  The Owner Services department does not have this information at this time.
Festiva Resorts passes this new along with sincere empathy as it has certainly felt the pain firsthand.  Festiva Resorts (while under no obligation to do so) has subsidized the Adventure Club’s bad debt in an amount approaching $1 million during 2009 and will again contribute and estimated $1 million in 2010.
  We mention the above contributions as we predict that the news of this increase could be met by accusations and rumors spread among members through various internet outlets or at the resorts.  The facts are that people have been hit pretty hard during 2009 and quite simply many of them can no longer afford their home or their car, let alone their Adventure Club membership. To lessen the impact of this deficit on all members Festiva Resorts is going above and beyond its obligations by contributing $2 million in subsidies by the end of 2010 that otherwise would have been used to further enhance the Club and its resorts.  We ask for your understanding and to come to terms with the fact that you the members and we the founders of the Adventure Club are in this together.  We know that these economic woes will eventually pass and we also know that in order to protect your investment and ours all parties involved must act responsibly and face this burden squarely and completely.
We want to provide you with the facts and be as transparent as possible as you will be receiving your Maintenance Fee invoice by mail in the next few weeks.  Again, we appreciate your understanding and have confidence that the efforts of responsible members like you along with those of Festiva Resorts will help to continually improve the Adventure Club program and its family of resorts.  We look forward to servicing your vacation needs in 2010 and moving forward.

Sincerely,
Festiva Resorts Adventure Club


----------



## ChrisH

*2010 MF's for Sandcastle in the mail*

Got mine today.  $354 for a studio.


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## mweinberg

ChrisH said:


> Got mine today.  $354 for a studio.



Did you get a copy of the budget along with your bill?  The letter said that one was enclosed, but whoever stuffed the envelopes must have overlooked mine.

mweinberg


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## mweinberg

*Privacy? Really??*

Didn't Hagberg say that the reason he wasn't releasing the owners' list because of his concerns for privacy?  If he's so concerned about privacy, why is he updating resort records by asking owners to provided their names, addresses, phone numbers, and email addresses by filling out a very public postcard?  Maybe he's not really so concerned about privacy after all.

mweinberg

P. S.  Are you reading this, Cliff?  Are you still not answering my questions?  That's why all future correspondence between us will have copies posted here as well as sent to _TimeSharing Today _and the Attorney General.  It's bad business to ignore the owners you supposedly represent, Cliff!


----------



## ChrisH

*No budget enclosed*



mweinberg said:


> Did you get a copy of the budget along with your bill?  The letter said that one was enclosed, but whoever stuffed the envelopes must have overlooked mine.
> 
> mweinberg



There was no budget included in mine.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Nothing in mine*



mweinberg said:


> Did you get a copy of the budget along with your bill?  The letter said that one was enclosed, but whoever stuffed the envelopes must have overlooked mine.
> 
> mweinberg



I didn't get any budget.  Now is he going to try to tell owners that the deed, trust and God don't allow him to send one?  I am NOT paying my maintenance fee until I have a detailed budget in front of me.

Did you read that, Cliff?  So you want my $512.00 you had best mail me the budget.  And, don't think you are going to charge me any late fees, foreclosure, collection or anything else.  You do what you are supposed to do and so will I.  And, I will be sending you an email stating this to you personally.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Cliff can put his postcard where the sun doesn't shine*



mweinberg said:


> Didn't Hagberg say that the reason he wasn't releasing the owners' list because of his concerns for privacy?  If he's so concerned about privacy, why is he updating resort records by asking owners to provided their names, addresses, phone numbers, and email addresses by filling out a very public postcard?  Maybe he's not really so concerned about privacy after all.
> 
> mweinberg
> 
> P. S.  Are you reading this, Cliff?  Are you still not answering my questions?  That's why all future correspondence between us will have copies posted here as well as sent to _TimeSharing Today _and the Attorney General.  It's bad business to ignore the owners you supposedly represent, Cliff!



I will NOT send my personal information to Cliff Hagberg on the back of a public postcard.  Did you get that Cliff?  You want my personal information you can send me a form with a postage paid envelope.  

Two can play your game.


----------



## mweinberg

Perhaps this is a good reason to complain again to the CAC and AG.  We are being asked for $500+ in fees right on top of a $800+ assessment, and we still have no detailed budget for the resort.  That's an awful lot of money to fork over when you have no idea where it is going other than the vague references to digging a well and acid washing some bricks.


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## Sou13

*Complain everywhere!*

I saw Martha Coakley on TV last evening (PBS Channel 2) along with all four contenders for the vacant Kennedy seat.  I don't live in MA and don't have a say in who gets to be the Democrat in the special election but the primary is imminent and Capuano is the best choice IMVHO.  He's a bit rough around the edges and is characterized as hot-headed but that's because he's "passhionate" and knows what's going on in D.C.  The problem for him is that he's not well-enough known throughout the Commonwealth because he represents the Somerville district.

I've even been advised to complain to the 
*Massachusetts Department of Consumer Affairs and Business regulation
10 Park Plaze, Suite 5170
Boston, Ma 02116
Telephone 617-973-8787*

I have yet to do so because I've just checked out or Unit 27 at Southcape Resort and am posting from the Mashpee Public Library.  The reason I'm posting this here is that I'd seen a TV ad with a toll-free # and called the Secretary of State.  A reply with reference to the above was in the mailbox the very next day!  Still no word on whatever bacame of all those Southcape and Sandcastle complaints that were sent from the CAC to Boston!


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## ChrisH

*Sandcastle 2010 Budget*

The separate 2010 budget came in today's mail.  You should get yours soon.


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## Classylassy523

*If you want to call that a budget.*



ChrisH said:


> The separate 2010 budget came in today's mail.  You should get yours soon.



Cliff Hagberg needs to read up on how to prepare a budget that provides information.  This does not do that.  Guess I get to send Mr. H another letter, email and follow that up with a copy to the AG.  They know me at the post office with all the registered/certified mail I send.  Of course, Cliff won't respond because he thinks I am too mean, too out spoken and I don't respect him.  _SIGH...._


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## Classylassy523

*Open Letter to Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley*

With Shep's (Publisher of Timesharing Today magazine) permission I am forwarding the latest IAlert.  I had written an Open Letter to Martha Coakley, Attorney General of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and sent it to numerous Massachusetts newspapers.  Shep read the letter and asked if he could publish it  in the current IAlert.  Hopefully we will get some response and exposure.  

The following URL will take you to a website where you can subscribe to Timesharing Today.  This magazine is published for timeshare owners like you and me.  They are advocates for owners and have helped many, many owners in the past as they are doing for us now.

https://tstoday.com/shop/freebonus.aspx?source=Jglnt


*Uphill battles*

Over the past several months, TimeSharing Today has held conference calls among various groups of owners trying to fight the loss of control of their owners associations, in-home sales during which owners were pressured to turn back deeded weeks and buy into a points program and other violations of resort bylaws. Some owners have filed complaints with their state's Attorney General, they have pleaded for help from their state representatives and one owner has filed a lawsuit to get the developer to turn over the list of owners as permitted under the resort bylaws. Action by the various agencies has been slow in coming.

Reader, Jean Gallant, sent the following open letter sent to the media that demonstrates the challenges owners are facing:

"An open letter to
Martha Coakley
Attorney General of the
Commonwealth of Massachusetts

Dear Attorney General Coakley,

Due to the inability to get any reaction, movement, help, or interest from your office I am resorting to sending this open letter via the press. You have citizens and other deeded owners of real estate who have sought your help in correcting an ongoing situation where the laws of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts are being broken and ignored daily. I don't know why you and your staff have not found our cries for help worthy of attention. I don't know if you think it is just a few people involved. I don't know if you have ‘bigger fish to fry'. Whatever the reason(s), you are wrong. I was raised to believe that the Attorney General upheld and enforced the laws of the Commonwealth. You are NOT doing this. Do you understand that there are in excess of 7000 people who are being viciously set upon every day? Do you understand that these same people are fearful about what the next thing they will have to face will be? Do you understand that these people thought they had bought a small piece of the Cape Cod pie and would be able to enjoy it? Do you understand that this is being taken away from us by greedy individuals who want all that we have worked hard to own? Do you understand these individuals are preying on the fears of thousands of senior citizens who only want to enjoy what is rightfully theirs?

Below I am AGAIN providing my last communication to you that has gone unacknowledged by your office. This letter followed multiple complaints and failed mediation. I implore you and your staff to please help us. The majority of the owners at these resorts are either retired or semi-retired. I can assure you that this is not what we envisioned for our retirement years.



October 19, 2009

Martha Coakley
Attorney General
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
One Ashburton Place
Boston, MA 02108

Re: *Complaints filed against
New England Vacation Services LLC
New England Vacation Management Services LLC
Outfield Marketing LLC
Festiva Resorts and Festiva Adventure Club*

Attorney Coakley:

I am writing in response to a letter (see enclosed) I received from Paul Schrader, Executive Director, Consumer Assistance Council, Inc. (CAC) of Hyannis, MA.

Months ago I filed multiple complaints with your office about the above referenced entities and their actions at the Sandcastle Resort in Provincetown, MA. I am a deeded owner of a week interval, have been since 1982. At the time I purchased my unit I was a young, widowed mother with three (3) children. This interval represented an inexpensive way to treat my children to a vacation. Twenty-seven years later I am still a widow, am now a senior citizen who has semi-retired, and have three (3) children who have grown, work hard and are honest citizens. I still own my timeshare and it still provides a place for me to spend a vacation on Cape Cod. The only thing different is the new management/developer who has taken over the resort, who has denied me my rights as a deeded owner, who has charged me exorbitant fees and assessments, who has in the past and continues to break the laws of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, who has installed a marketing company that uses high pressure, deceitful selling tactics, and the only selling going on at the resort is a point system that requires deeded owners GIVE their deeded property to Festiva Adventure Club (FAC) and, adding insult to injury, require they pay better than $3,000 for FAC to take the deeds. That is the reason for the complaints I have filed with your office and the Federal Trade Commission.

My complaints along with those of numerous other owners and former owners (those people who fell prey to the strong-arm tactics and deceitful marketing ploys of Outfield Marketing) were sent to the CAC to attempt mediation on behalf of the owners. From the letter I received it appears that those efforts have failed. The cases have been returned to your office for further review. All the complaints are still valid as business is continuing as usual for these companies. They still refuse owners their rights, they are still collecting monies illegally assessed, and they demonstrate no regard for the deeded owners who have worked hard to purchase and maintain their individual interval units.

The Sandcastle Resort ownership is made up of everyday, hard working people who have had their share of struggles, problems and heartaches through the years. The resort has provided us a source of peace and solace. Most of us have owned for 25 or more years, have reached the time in our lives where we can retire or semi-retire and enjoy all we have worked hard for through the years. These companies have taken that away from all of us. Now we face bills that frighten us. Here we thought we would have a place to spend quiet times, to bring our children and now our grandchildren to Cape Cod, and now we find we have nothing but fear and stress in regard to our timeshare units.

I am asking that you and your staff please read carefully the complaints, letters and reports pertaining to the Sandcastle Resort and, also, the Southcape Resort. This is another resort of older people that has been taken over by these same companies. Laws have been and continue to be broken every day by these entities. There are better than 5,000 owners (between the Sandcastle and Southcape Resorts) that have had their lives disrupted and negatively impacted by the actions of a few greedy, self-serving individuals. I hope that you and your staff are able to get beyond the words on the papers and understand what is happening to citizens of Massachusetts, New England and other parts of the United States and Canada. It is a sad day we people, who have worked hard, paid our own way and want to enjoy what we have paid for, have to be exposed to and frightened by these people.

In addition I ask that you and your staff take into consideration the fact that Outfield Marketing, Festiva Resorts and Festiva Adventure Club have run afoul of Attorneys General in numerous other states and countries, and the complaints are the same throughout these resorts. There is a similar problem ongoing in Maine involving Festiva Resorts. Another thing to consider is that three (3) of the principals of Outfield Marketing make up 75% of each of the Boards of Trustees of both the Sandcastle and Southcape Resorts. These people were not voted in by owners and have denied the rights of owners to serve on the boards as provided by the deeds and trusts."



*TimeSharing Today's advocacy efforts are raising awareness and action is being undertaken,  but more work remains to be done to get sorely needed results. Please support our efforts and the courageous owners who trying to make a difference. Email comments to staff@tstoday.com Subject: Advocacy.*


----------



## GordonH

*Massachusetts Attorney General Coakley*

I wish you luck with the Ma. AG, but her only interest at this time is to win the U. S. Senate seat vacated by Ted Kennedy.  All her efforts and that of her staff are directed toward this effort.  Since she is the favorite to win today's primary , and with the actual election in January, your chances of getting any help are between slim and none.  She has been a no-show AG, and before that an ineffective DA.  She is MASSACHUSETTS POLITICS!!! 
As I said, good luck getting anywhere with her.


----------



## Whosedis

*Sandcastle frustration*


Regarding the letter to Martha Coakley.....have we heard anything yet?
I am anxious to learn what other owners are doing about all this.  I will gladly join a group if there is one.  I am retired and will pay the maintenance as I always do but this assessment has me worried....the whole thing sounds like someone is ripping us off.
I am an owner at Sandcastle and I have 2 weeks to deal with.  I have been "processed" by the Outfield people who tried to scare me into converting to points.  I declined and threw them out but now I am so confused as to who really owns the resort.  I simple can't afford to pay the assessment of 883.94 for each of my 2 weeks (total $1768 plus late fees i'm sure) and maintenance of $512 for my prime week and $354 for my May week...(the maintenance has just gone up and up and its become a burden to pay it every year but I always do....and I do so on time....always.   This year I am worried....if i pay the mtce and not the assessment, i cant use my weeks....if i pay the assessment and not the maintenance, i can't use my weeks or trade them.  I would like to be rid of both weeks completely...i will just about give them to anyone who want them....any suggestions from other owners? I will be grateful for your advice on this matter....I am very worried.
Thanks,
Joyce from Vero Beach




October 19, 2009

Martha Coakley
Attorney General
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
One Ashburton Place
Boston, MA 02108

Re: *Complaints filed against
New England Vacation Services LLC
New England Vacation Management Services LLC
Outfield Marketing LLC
Festiva Resorts and Festiva Adventure Club*

Attorney Coakley:

I am writing in response to a letter (see enclosed) I received from Paul Schrader, Executive Director, Consumer Assistance Council, Inc. (CAC) of Hyannis, MA.

Months ago I filed multiple complaints with your office about the above referenced entities and their actions at the Sandcastle Resort in Provincetown, MA. I am a deeded owner of a week interval, have been since 1982. At the time I purchased my unit I was a young, widowed mother with three (3) children. This interval represented an inexpensive way to treat my children to a vacation. Twenty-seven years later I am still a widow, am now a senior citizen who has semi-retired, and have three (3) children who have grown, work hard and are honest citizens. I still own my timeshare and it still provides a place for me to spend a vacation on Cape Cod. The only thing different is the new management/developer who has taken over the resort, who has denied me my rights as a deeded owner, who has charged me exorbitant fees and assessments, who has in the past and continues to break the laws of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, who has installed a marketing company that uses high pressure, deceitful selling tactics, and the only selling going on at the resort is a point system that requires deeded owners GIVE their deeded property to Festiva Adventure Club (FAC) and, adding insult to injury, require they pay better than $3,000 for FAC to take the deeds. That is the reason for the complaints I have filed with your office and the Federal Trade Commission.

My complaints along with those of numerous other owners and former owners (those people who fell prey to the strong-arm tactics and deceitful marketing ploys of Outfield Marketing) were sent to the CAC to attempt mediation on behalf of the owners. From the letter I received it appears that those efforts have failed. The cases have been returned to your office for further review. All the complaints are still valid as business is continuing as usual for these companies. They still refuse owners their rights, they are still collecting monies illegally assessed, and they demonstrate no regard for the deeded owners who have worked hard to purchase and maintain their individual interval units.

The Sandcastle Resort ownership is made up of everyday, hard working people who have had their share of struggles, problems and heartaches through the years. The resort has provided us a source of peace and solace. Most of us have owned for 25 or more years, have reached the time in our lives where we can retire or semi-retire and enjoy all we have worked hard for through the years. These companies have taken that away from all of us. Now we face bills that frighten us. Here we thought we would have a place to spend quiet times, to bring our children and now our grandchildren to Cape Cod, and now we find we have nothing but fear and stress in regard to our timeshare units.

I am asking that you and your staff please read carefully the complaints, letters and reports pertaining to the Sandcastle Resort and, also, the Southcape Resort. This is another resort of older people that has been taken over by these same companies. Laws have been and continue to be broken every day by these entities. There are better than 5,000 owners (between the Sandcastle and Southcape Resorts) that have had their lives disrupted and negatively impacted by the actions of a few greedy, self-serving individuals. I hope that you and your staff are able to get beyond the words on the papers and understand what is happening to citizens of Massachusetts, New England and other parts of the United States and Canada. It is a sad day we people, who have worked hard, paid our own way and want to enjoy what we have paid for, have to be exposed to and frightened by these people.

In addition I ask that you and your staff take into consideration the fact that Outfield Marketing, Festiva Resorts and Festiva Adventure Club have run afoul of Attorneys General in numerous other states and countries, and the complaints are the same throughout these resorts. There is a similar problem ongoing in Maine involving Festiva Resorts. Another thing to consider is that three (3) of the principals of Outfield Marketing make up 75% of each of the Boards of Trustees of both the Sandcastle and Southcape Resorts. These people were not voted in by owners and have denied the rights of owners to serve on the boards as provided by the deeds and trusts."



*TimeSharing Today's advocacy efforts are raising awareness and action is being undertaken,  but more work remains to be done to get sorely needed results. Please support our efforts and the courageous owners who trying to make a difference. Email comments to staff@tstoday.com Subject: Advocacy.*[/QUOTE]


----------



## Fig

GordonH said:


> I wish you luck with the Ma. AG, but her only interest at this time is to win the U. S. Senate seat vacated by Ted Kennedy.  All her efforts and that of her staff are directed toward this effort.  Since she is the favorite to win today's primary , and with the actual election in January, your chances of getting any help are between slim and none.  She has been a no-show AG, and before that an ineffective DA.  She is MASSACHUSETTS POLITICS!!!
> As I said, good luck getting anywhere with her.



Well, all may not be that bad. Secretary of State Galvin may replace her. This is the same office that Cliff filed his reports with "under penalty of perjury" that included facts that mysteriously are being rewritten in subsequent filings. Maybe you want to send a copy of all the letters to his office as well? Here is the story about an ad he is running where 

"A senior citizen speaks solemnly about being the victim of financial fraud before smiling brightly about how the state helped him get his money back. “I like to bring good news,” Secretary of State William F. Galvin chimes in, before identifying himself by name during his latest television commercial. “

http://www.news-spider.com/comments/1260860021

Secretary of the Commonwealth
Citizen Information Service
One Ashburton Place, Room 1611
Boston, MA 02108-1512

Tel: (617) 727-7030
Toll Free: 1-800-392-6090
TTY: (617) 878-3889
Fax: (617) 742-4528 
E-mail: cis@sec.state.ma.us


Why not write his office as well, as it oversees non-profit filings in MA including NEVS and it's something he could hit the ground running with if he did become AG?


----------



## ChrisH

*Galvin Ads*

You're right, we'll probably be better off with Martha running her campaign and being out of the office.

Maybe one of her underlings with some ambition can now move ahead with our complaints to make a name for him/herself in the hopes of gaining her office in the future.

And Galvin has had more ads, running nightly in the last few weeks, usually with the evening news, than I've seen from the SOS in years - so he's obviously going for the identity thing. Probably also in the hopes of running for the AG position too.

Hopefully this will be a benefit to US.  
Chris


----------



## TUGBrian

a reporter from the Boston Globe contacted me today about this issue, it seemed she was going to do a story on it.

I hope this will end up with more exposure for the issue and helps the owners come to a satisfactory solution with the mgmt company.


----------



## e.bram

This would be a major breakthrough. See if you can push it. Maybe broadcast media will pick it up.


----------



## Classylassy523

*No help from the SOS*

Contacted Secretary of State Galvin with an email and copy of letters previously sent to Cliff Hagberg and the Attorney General.  The CIS responded within the day.

Quote:  
"Unfortunately the Secretary doesn't have legal authority to interfere in another offices jurisdiction which unfortunately is the office you already have contacted.
You can call our office we'd be glad to explain why we are unable to assist your matter."

Can't win them all!


----------



## Sou13

*AG files suit in timeshare scheme*

Have you seen this one?

AG files suit in timeshare scheme


----------



## Whosedis

*Count me in!*

Hi Everyone,
I got a voicemail message from someone who filled me in on what you are all doing...I think she said her name was Jean...in any event, she said there are about 200 or so members in your group and you have something on Google?
Can you tell me how to hook up with you so you can count me in the number of owners at Sandcastle who are angry. I feel like we are being "taken" by a shrewd group of associated companies who claim to be doing us a favor by taking our money.  I am glad to see I am not alone.  I don't know what information is okay to share on this site and I don't know how to find you on Google.  I also do not know how to use this site or what thread I am responding to so please bear with me if I am in the wrong place.
Thanks,
Joyce from Vero Beach Florida
p.s. will you please call me again and let me know how to reach you (jean?)


----------



## rg16242

*add me to the list!*

I would like to submit my information to the list as well.  Who can I contact?

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## ChrisH

*Hi Rich*

All taken care of.  Welcome aboard.
Chris H


----------



## ChrisH

*Boston Globe Article - about Sandcastle/NEVS*

Hello

For those of you whom haven't seen it yet, yesterdays Boston Globe, business section has an article written by Jenifer McKim on some of the happenings at Sandcastle.  She interviewed several owners as well as Cliff Hagberg.

Chris


----------



## Sou13

*More harm than good?*

New owners, big changes has a slideshow and 38 comments, features not found in the print edition.  It's free and recent archived articles are also free.

If nothing else, it might attract Sandcastle and Southcape owners to find us on TUG.  But from the reader comments it may be doing more harm than good.

One comment was so bad it had to be removed by a moderator, but it was captured by a user who replied to it.  The Globe may have netted a few new forums members by publishing this article.  Let's hope for the best and be grateful that someone got the attention of a Gloge reporter at last.


----------



## Carolinian

It's not about privacy at all.  That dog doesn't hunt.  It is about thumbing his nose at the clear provisions of state corporate law and stonewalling the owners so that they cannot organize and take back their resort from these pirates.



mweinberg said:


> Didn't Hagberg say that the reason he wasn't releasing the owners' list because of his concerns for privacy?  If he's so concerned about privacy, why is he updating resort records by asking owners to provided their names, addresses, phone numbers, and email addresses by filling out a very public postcard?  Maybe he's not really so concerned about privacy after all.
> 
> mweinberg
> 
> P. S.  Are you reading this, Cliff?  Are you still not answering my questions?  That's why all future correspondence between us will have copies posted here as well as sent to _TimeSharing Today _and the Attorney General.  It's bad business to ignore the owners you supposedly represent, Cliff!


----------



## ARTHUR

*Sandcasle`s Festiva Complaint Group.*



ChrisH said:


> All taken care of.  Welcome aboard.
> Chris H



  Hi Chris, I`m another one of those seniors thats been taken by FESTIVA. HOW CAN I GET ON THAT COMPLAINT GROUP AT SANDCASLE. Thank you, ARTHUR.


----------



## Carolinian

Once owners get control, there is a great poison pill to insert in your governing instruments to thwart sharks like Festiva / NEVS.  In was used at Stouts Hill timeshare in the UK to thwart Sunterra, and was told to me by the HOA board member who proposed it at their annual general meeting (AGM).

Sunterra was working to buy out the remaining inventory and ''developer rights'' of the original developer of Stouts Hill.  Fortunately the members already had voting control of their association, but they knew that Suntera would start up the pressure to ''upgrade'' (translation from Orwellian is ''downgrade'') members to points, which would give Sunterra an ever increasing block of votes at the AGM, much like Festiva / NEVS is doing.  The members could see the handwriting on the wall.

The poison pill that solved it was very simple.  An astute board member simply moved to amend the governing documents to only give each member one vote at the AGM regardless of how many weeks they owned.  Thus no matter what Sunterra did, they would only have one vote in the AGM and not be a threat to take over.  

Sunterra walked away from the deal with the original developer, much to the long term benefit of the resort.

Once, you take over the HOA, I would strongly suggest inserting this same poision pill in your governing instruments.


----------



## ChrisH

*More Sandcastle 'upgrade' pics*

If you haven't seen all the pics attached to the Boston Globe article at:

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2009/12/29/new_owners_big_changes_at_provincetown_time_share/    

click on the photo of Tom and Elaine, you will see additional photos of the repair of decks and work on the "Sunset room" -  a 'common area' requiring an owners vote on any repairs or upgrades before they proceed according to the MGL 183A and was not done, even though owners requested Hagberg submit a ballot vote. 

And more here:

http://www.sandcastlecapecod.com/PhotoGalleryDetails.asp?cid=2&pg=1002 

shows updates to the Annex - not used in 5-7 years -  a 'common' area requiring vote on any repairs.  Vote requested - no response from Hagberg.

You'd think for this $105,000 (building permit amount) they could have done the upgrades in our units first and then worked on the "annex" when necessary repairs were completed at the resort- and were actually approved (or not) by the owners association.

Not the way it works with NEVS, LLC.  

Chris H


----------



## ChrisH

*More coverage of our story!*

I just found this on a web search - its the Boston Globe article republished online on Cape Cod Today. 

http://www.capecodtoday.com/blogs/index.php?blog=109
At least we are getting some additional exposure.

ChrisH


----------



## Carolinian

ChrisH said:


> If you haven't seen all the pics attached to the Boston Globe article at:
> 
> http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2009/12/29/new_owners_big_changes_at_provincetown_time_share/
> 
> click on the photo of Tom and Elaine, you will see additional photos of the repair of decks and work on the "Sunset room" -  a 'common area' requiring an owners vote on any repairs or upgrades before they proceed according to the MGL 183A and was not done, even though owners requested Hagberg submit a ballot vote.
> 
> And more here:
> 
> http://www.sandcastlecapecod.com/PhotoGalleryDetails.asp?cid=2&pg=1002
> 
> shows updates to the Annex - not used in 5-7 years -  a 'common' area requiring vote on any repairs.  Vote requested - no response from Hagberg.
> 
> You'd think for this $105,000 (building permit amount) they could have done the upgrades in our units first and then worked on the "annex" when necessary repairs were completed at the resort- and were actually approved (or not) by the owners association.
> 
> Not the way it works with NEVS, LLC.
> 
> Chris H



Perhaps a corporate derivative suit, where members sue for a corporate right that the corporation leadership itself refuses to, could collect the amount of these repairs that were not legally authorized out of the hide of NEVS.


----------



## JustSomeInfo

Has anyone tried talking to some of the long term employees of the resort that were "laid off"? Sounds like some may have some info on really going on down there....


----------



## Carolinian

JustSomeInfo said:


> Has anyone tried talking to some of the long term employees of the resort that were "laid off"? Sounds like some may have some info on really going on down there....



And you never know what it may produce.  A disgruntled employee was how one concerned owners group on the OBX got their resort membership list from the developer without having to press the developer with lawyers.


----------



## Tia

Carolinian said:


> And you never know what it may produce.  A disgruntled employee was how one concerned owners group on the OBX got their resort membership list from the developer without having to press the developer with lawyers.



Same happened at our one resort, too bad we didn't get a poison pill amendment however....


----------



## Sou13

*Are you happy with the article in Timesharing Today?*

Are Sandcastle owners happy with the article on p. 15 of the Jan/Feb issue of Timesharing Today?


----------



## Sou13

*Doesn't anyone care?*

I've compared the response from NEVS that was sent out as an email alert in October with the response on p. 15.  It's nearly identical, expect for two sentences.

Why do you suppose the editors left off "Outfield sells both weeks and a points program. Outfield is not taking ownership in any deeds."?

I've also noted some inaccuracies in the articles.  Is everyone happy with this, or doesn't anyone care?


----------



## Sou13

*Here's what was left out*



Sou13 said:


> I've compared the response from NEVS that was sent out as an email alert in October with the response on p. 15.  It's nearly identical, expect for two sentences.
> 
> Why do you suppose the editors left off "Outfield sells both weeks and a points program. Outfield is not taking ownership in any deeds."?
> 
> I've also noted some inaccuracies in the articles.  Is everyone happy with this, or doesn't anyone care?


Here's what was left out:
The claim regarding management fees is untrue. 

Outfield sells both weeks and a points program. Outfield is not taking ownership in any deeds. 

The claim that the expenses and assessment are in direct violation of the condominium documents are not true and has been reviewed by the attorney for the associations. 

As to their final list of accusations: 
 -Ballot votes are not required by law and are entrusted to the trustees. 
 -Budgets are provided with the maintenance fee bill and any owner is entitled to review the financial statements in detail. We meet with owners all of the time.
 -Contractor estimates, etc. have all been reviewed and approved by the board of Trustees as representatives of all the owners.
 -Owners have not been “illegally hampered” in any way.​I've noted that this is the same response that was sent as an I-Alert in October, with the above sentences left out.


----------



## ChrisH

*New Pictures on Sandcastle Work*

Here's the latest January pictures on ongoing work - in the common areas, which is still assumed to be illegal as the any work on common areas must be approved by owners.  And it wasn't.

But NEVS doesn't follow the rules.  

Makes up it's own. 

http://www.sandcastlecapecod.com/PhotoGalleryDetails.asp?cid=2&pg=1005

If the link above doesn't work, open the Photo gallery on the home page.


----------



## ChrisH

*LOOKING for Sandcastle owners who converted to FAC*

Hi

Looking for Sandcastle owners who transferred their deeds to FAC and are not happy or are having difficulties after the transaction.

You don't need to post your personal information here, just reply to this message using the 'Private Message' feature.

Thanks
Chris


----------



## Sou13

*Any replies?*

Have you heard from anyone, ChrisH?


----------



## strummer

*You can donate your resort*

I'll share the basics of a timeshare donation experience just fyi that the "new" Sandcastle is not very admirable.

After several great years at Sandcastle, we decided to donate our weeks for several reasons including lifestyle changes, etc., combined with all the shady tactics going on. There are several legitimate charities that will accept the timeshares, but they know the market and will take your week(s) plus a cash donation and closing costs of about $300 per unit. It's costly, but does transfer the ownership and most is tax deductible. At least it was less expensive than the ripoff outfits that want $3500 to "sell" your timeshare, etc., and you wind up out the money and still have the timeshare.

It was a bittersweet decision. The recipients estimated the closing time at 60-90 days but ours took more than twice as long. Part of this was inefficiency and lack of return calls/faxes by the Sandcastle. The Sandcastle also charged a fee (ripoff), according to our closing company of $150 per unit to "transfer the name on the deed". This, according to our closers is 6 times the average of $25 !!!! We chose to pay this outlandish fee because we simply wanted it to end.

We will surely miss the Sandcastle as we knew it and I think if we were 20 years younger we would stick by it, although I think the fees will increase at an alarming rate. I guess we've become some of the "older" owners who just needed to move on.

In conclusion, it's an expensive option, compounded by what appears to be the Sandcastle's jumping at the chance to overcharge fees wherever they can. If you're considering donating, hope this info helps. You can Google donation prospects and many are registered with their local Better Business Bureaus. Two suggestions are Florida Veterans and Life Oasis for Children. I will follow the ongoing Sandcastle saga and hope the future holds some positive decisions and solutions for the owners.

Strummer


----------



## ChrisH

*Latest Renovation Photos: Sandcastle*

Here is the link to the latest 'renovation' photos.

http://www.sandcastlecapecod.com/PhotoGalleryDetails.asp?cid=2&pg=1006

or go to sandcastlecapecod.com and click on the photo gallery links until you find Feb 2010

Chris


----------



## ChrisH

*2010 Sandcastle Owner's Meeting Date: BE THERE!*

Sandcastle Owner's

The Annual Meeting will be held on 

*Saturday, April 24, 2010 at noon *

at the resort according to information provided by Cliff Hagberg.  

This is the last Saturday in April.  

Hope to see you there.

ChrisH


----------



## ChrisH

*ANNUAL MEETING APRIL 24th, 2010 - NOON*

*Attention every Sandcastle Owner:*

We have been told by Hagberg, after requesting the information, that the 

*ANNUAL OWNER' MEETING *will be held on *SATURDAY, APRIL 24th, 2010*
*at noon*, at the SANDCASTLE RESORT.

No owner that our group is in contact with has received a notice of this meeting.

If you are an owner, or know other Sandcastle owner's

*PLEASE plan on ATTENDING*, and let other owner's know of the date and time.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

ChrisH said:


> *Attention every Sandcastle Owner:*
> 
> We have been told by Hagberg, after requesting the information, that the
> 
> *ANNUAL OWNER' MEETING *will be held on *SATURDAY, APRIL 24th, 2010*
> *at noon*, at the SANDCASTLE RESORT.
> 
> No owner that our group is in contact with has received a notice of this meeting.
> 
> If you are an owner, or know other Sandcastle owner's
> 
> *PLEASE plan on ATTENDING*, and let other owner's know of the date and time.



Again, this is incorrect.  Notice of the Annual Meeting was sent to all owners in the newsletter that accompanied the maintenance fee bill.


----------



## ChrisH

*ANNUAL MEETING APRIL 24th, 2010 - NOON*

I stand corrected.  It was included with the MF some 8 months ago.

However, even though 6 pages of material came this past weekend from NEVS, supposedly sent to all owners,

there was NO reminder about the upcoming Annual Owners Meeting.  

So if you got your MF bill in Oct or Nov 2009 and paid by January 30, 2010, you might no longer have that announcement from last fall.

A little courtesy goes a long way.


----------



## Sou13

So were you able to make it to the meeting?  How was it?


----------



## Sou13

*2011 Sandcastle owners meeting April 23?*

When is the Sandcastle owners annual meeting?  Is it the day before Easter???????????


----------



## Timesharemogul

*Re: choice of 2011 annual meeting date*



Sou13 said:


> When is the Sandcastle owners annual meeting?  Is it the day before Easter???????????



Yessiree....
The day before Easter. I've attended every year since buying my first unit (I have 12 there) and this will be the first meeting I miss.....as is probably true for many other owners. The thing that really gets me is this: There are 5 Saturdays in April. In the last year that there were 5 Saturdays, I showed up on the 4th....only to find no one there....and was a given a hearty lesson in condo docs by then-manager Debbie Menangas who showed me that the condo docs called for the annual meeting to be held on the LAST Saturday of April...So I checked out early from the room I had rented intown, went home, and returned the next weekend. 
    This past January, I brought this disparity to the attention of the present manager, who phoned Cliff, and then gave me this rationale for the choosing of the 4th Saturday this April: One set of condo docs calls for the meeting to be held the LAST Saturday of April and this conflicts with another set of condo docs calling for the 4th Saturday in April. I was told that Cliff chose the LAST Saturday because he felt this would better fulfill the requirements of both condo docs. 
    Of course attendance will probably reach an all-time-low for an annual meeting.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Did anyone read a calendar before setting the date?*



Timesharemogul said:


> Yessiree....
> This past January, I brought this disparity to the attention of the present manager, who phoned Cliff, and then gave me this rationale for the choosing of the 4th Saturday this April: One set of condo docs calls for the meeting to be held the LAST Saturday of April and this conflicts with another set of condo docs calling for the 4th Saturday in April. I was told that Cliff chose the LAST Saturday because he felt this would better fulfill the requirements of both condo docs.
> Of course attendance will probably reach an all-time-low for an annual meeting.



April 23rd is NOT the last Saturday of the month ... April 30th is the last Saturday.  April 23rd is the 4th Saturday of the month.  So if what you posted is accurate, then the meeting should be on the 30th.  It would seem that someone is the decision process did not read a calendar.

This is one owner who will be attending.


----------



## dunes422

*The NEW  "FLOAT WEEKS"*

Here's how the *FLOATING WEEKS *at *SANDCASTLE *work!

You have a deeded week to Sandcastle.  Probably long ago paid in full. :whoopie: 

Now you can PAY them to TAKE your DEED  :ignore: and give you a Timeshare License instead.   So far the payment have been about $3000 to $9000 range.  Or they'll finance that for you.  

Some examples of recent recorded transactions: 
Intervals 26-35:  Summer float - $5900 ND;  Summer float - $3290 ND;  Summer studio - $8900;  

Intervals 21-25 and 36-41: Prime Float - Studio - $6295;   Prime Float Studio - $6900;  Prime Float Studio - $6900;  Prime Float Suite - $3295*


Now until you sign here, on the dotted line, today and today only at this special offer price, YOU OWNED a deeded week FREE and CLEAR :whoopie: 

_ND = no designated on document;_
*It is interesting to note that the Prime Suite cost less than the Prime Studio which doesn't make sense unless they are trying to get suite inventory.


By definition in the Mass General Laws - Chapter 183B Timeshare:

“Time-share license”, a right to the occupancy of a unit or any of several units during five or more separated time periods not coupled with a freehold estate or an estate for years." 

Time-share estate. "Time-share estate" means any interest in a unit or any of several units under which the exclusive right of use, possession or occupancy of the unit circulates among the various time-share owners in the unit in accordance with a fixed time schedule on a periodically recurring basis for periods of or a specified portion thereof.

Freehold Estate: A freehold estate is an estate in which ownership is for an undefined length of time.


These are the categories:
Prime Float weeks =  21-25 and 36 -41
Summer Float weeks =  Intervals 26 -35
Getaway Floating weeks  = 9-20 and 42-48

And you can use your float week by making a Reservation, just follow these rules:

Reservations not more than 18 months or less than 7 days in advance of the requested period.

No accrual or carryover from the previous year.

No reservation can be made until all maintenance fees etc are paid up.
Bonus use: units not reserved 7 days in advance and deemed available, may be reserved 6 days (or less) in advance as a "Bonus" week by Getaway and Prime Float owners with a 'per diem' charge.  I believe you can reserve these on a daily or weekly basis.  No more than a total of seven bonus days may be reserved by any float week owner.

If you don't make a reservation, don't ASSUME   you'll get your week.  It's in the pool as far as I can tell.  So call quick or you'll get week 9 and be at the beach in early February, if you can get there through the snow.

ANNUAL FEES are DIFFERENT:   
These are the 2010 figures listed in the document.  They don't appear to by unit size but _by season_.  You'll notice that a summer studio is $550 while current studios are $354, and summer suites are $750 while current suites pay $512 in maintenance fees, and weeks owners pay their maintenance fees according to the square footage and common areas as described in the Master Deeds and Trusts. 

Studios: Getaway week  = $250
Studios: Prime Float  =  $350
Studio Summer Float  =  $550
 not $354
Suite: Getaway Float = $350
Suite: Prime Float = $550 not $512 
Suite: Summer = $750 
not $512

You no longer own your week.  You no longer have a deed.  Your Timeshare License will expire in 2059.  Your grandkids won't have to worry about inheriting it. 

Or you/they can rebuy it at a new price   , to be determined much later I'm sure. 

Details can be found at the Barnstable Registry of Deeds.   Search for this Document:  
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (AS TR)
Declaration Of Trust  
10-13-2010
BK-pg: 24904-224 
Pages in document: 17

To see recent sales type in:  SANDCASTLE INTERVAL OWNERSHIP TRUST


----------



## Conan

Admitting I haven't read through this thread, can I assume that a fixed week owner still has the option of doing nothing apart from paying maintenance, and can continue to use, rent, or deposit to RCI?


----------



## dunes422

*Yes, you are able to keep your deed*

Owner's don't have to JOIN the floating weeks program.

Just pointing out some details.  That may get missed during the sales pitch.


----------



## Sou13

dunes422 said:


> Details can be found at the Barnstable Registry of Deeds.   Search for this Document:
> NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (AS TR)
> Declaration Of Trust
> 10-13-2010
> BK-pg: 24904-224
> Pages in document: 17
> 
> To see recent sales type in:  SANDCASTLE INTERVAL OWNERSHIP TRUST



I went to Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access and typed in SANDCASTLE INTERVAL OWNERSHIP TRUST and found that it's true, there's a sucker born every minute!  To date seven Sandcastle owners have fallen for this new make-Hagberg-richer-quicker scheme/scam!


----------



## dunes422

*It is TRUE*



Sou13 said:


> I went to Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access and typed in SANDCASTLE INTERVAL OWNERSHIP TRUST and found that it's true, there's a sucker born every minute!  To date seven Sandcastle owners have fallen for this new make-Hagberg-richer-quicker scheme/scam!



You searched the referenced information and found it was true.

Where you expecting a LIE???:  :ignore:


----------



## ChrisH

*Another expense!!! that we're stuck with*

Here's an article about the TV's that were ordered, $24000 deposit, company went bankrupt, and Sandcastle owners are out that money too?

Great job   

This certainly wasn't mentioned at the Annual Meeting in late April

http://www.marketnews.ca/content/index/page?pid=8799

Groupe Dumoulin Granted Two-Week Extension of CCAA Protection

*nevmsllc April 05, 2011, 16:15 pm
*DuMoulin through their company Hotel Solutions USA took $24,000 from our resort as a deposit on 160 televisions. They did this after filing suit again Samsung for not being able to fill orders and never informed us. They kept leading us on about delivery right up until they filed for bankruptcy. Even after the filing, they kept reassuring us that we would get our deposit back. Now, they're claiming protection under U. S. Bankruptcy laws. All of this was done with the knowledge that they would probably not be able to fulfill our order and they took the money anyway. Nice people.


----------



## e.bram

Corrupt and/or inept management.


----------



## Sou13

*Sandcastle auction*

Forwarded by a Sandcastle owner:

"Hi we were just there in July we own week 29 that week on july 21 the provincetown banner in the classifieds listed the time share auction of sandcastle to be held on Aug 22 2011 and all the owners with the weeks and units how much they owe in arrears to be auctioned off  in public."


----------



## ChrisH

*Forfeiture Auction completed*

The auction of forfeited/default units took place Mon., Aug 22nd.  Approx 1100 units were offered.  

There were only a handful of bidders for available units, the remainder of units were bid on and 'purchased back' by the Royal Coachman/Sandcaslte Resort Condominium Associations.

It only took 1 1/2 hrs to complete the sale of all those units/weeks.


----------



## dunes422

*A fool and his money soon parted*



dunes422 said:


> Here's how the *FLOATING WEEKS *at *SANDCASTLE *work!
> 
> You have a deeded week to Sandcastle.  Probably long ago paid in full. :whoopie:
> 
> Now you can PAY them to TAKE your DEED  :ignore: and give you a Timeshare License instead.   So far the payment have been about $3000 to $9000 range.  Or they'll finance that for you.
> 
> Some examples of recent recorded transactions:
> Intervals 26-35:  Summer float - $5900 ND;  Summer float - $3290 ND;  Summer studio - $8900;
> 
> Intervals 21-25 and 36-41: Prime Float - Studio - $6295;   Prime Float Studio - $6900;  Prime Float Studio - $6900;  Prime Float Suite - $3295*
> 
> 
> Now until you sign here, on the dotted line, today and today only at this special offer price, YOU OWNED a deeded week FREE and CLEAR :whoopie:
> 
> _ND = no designated on document;_
> *It is interesting to note that the Prime Suite cost less than the Prime Studio which doesn't make sense unless they are trying to get suite inventory.
> 
> 
> By definition in the Mass General Laws - Chapter 183B Timeshare:
> 
> “Time-share license”, a right to the occupancy of a unit or any of several units during five or more separated time periods not coupled with a freehold estate or an estate for years."
> 
> Time-share estate. "Time-share estate" means any interest in a unit or any of several units under which the exclusive right of use, possession or occupancy of the unit circulates among the various time-share owners in the unit in accordance with a fixed time schedule on a periodically recurring basis for periods of or a specified portion thereof.
> 
> Freehold Estate: A freehold estate is an estate in which ownership is for an undefined length of time.
> 
> 
> These are the categories:
> Prime Float weeks =  21-25 and 36 -41
> Summer Float weeks =  Intervals 26 -35
> Getaway Floating weeks  = 9-20 and 42-48
> 
> And you can use your float week by making a Reservation, just follow these rules:
> 
> Reservations not more than 18 months or less than 7 days in advance of the requested period.
> 
> No accrual or carryover from the previous year.
> 
> No reservation can be made until all maintenance fees etc are paid up.
> Bonus use: units not reserved 7 days in advance and deemed available, may be reserved 6 days (or less) in advance as a "Bonus" week by Getaway and Prime Float owners with a 'per diem' charge.  I believe you can reserve these on a daily or weekly basis.  No more than a total of seven bonus days may be reserved by any float week owner.
> 
> If you don't make a reservation, don't ASSUME   you'll get your week.  It's in the pool as far as I can tell.  So call quick or you'll get week 9 and be at the beach in early February, if you can get there through the snow.
> 
> ANNUAL FEES are DIFFERENT:
> These are the 2010 figures listed in the document.  They don't appear to by unit size but _by season_.  You'll notice that a summer studio is $550 while current studios are $354, and summer suites are $750 while current suites pay $512 in maintenance fees, and weeks owners pay their maintenance fees according to the square footage and common areas as described in the Master Deeds and Trusts.
> 
> Studios: Getaway week  = $250
> Studios: Prime Float  =  $350
> Studio Summer Float  =  $550
> not $354
> Suite: Getaway Float = $350
> Suite: Prime Float = $550 not $512
> Suite: Summer = $750
> not $512
> 
> You no longer own your week.  You no longer have a deed.  Your Timeshare License will expire in 2059.  Your grandkids won't have to worry about inheriting it.
> 
> Or you/they can rebuy it at a new price   , to be determined much later I'm sure.
> 
> Details can be found at the Barnstable Registry of Deeds.   Search for this Document:
> NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (AS TR)
> Declaration Of Trust
> 10-13-2010
> BK-pg: 24904-224
> Pages in document: 17
> 
> To see recent sales type in:  SANDCASTLE INTERVAL OWNERSHIP TRUST




Here's an update on the new Timeshare License offered by New England Vacation Services, LLC, Clifford Hagberg, Trustee, under his newer Sand Castle Interval Ownership Trust.

There has been an added amendment, under the Reservations/Bonus Weeks section. 

Can be searched for and read via the Barnstable Registry of Deeds website, free access. 

Forewarned is forearmed!!!!!!!!

Bk-Pg:25625-137
Recorded: 08-17-2011 @ 11:35:33am
Type: Amendment
Refers to Book: 24904-224

Town: COUNTY 

Gtor:NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (AS TR) (Gtor)

Gtor:HAGBERG, CLIFFORD (AS TR) (Gtor)

Return addr: 	SAND CASTLE INV TRUST
		P O BOX 2847
		HYANNIS, MA 02601


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## Sou13

I read the document.  What does all this mean?


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## ChrisH

*MA Consumer Affairs - Open Meetings Scheduled Worc/Spfld/New Bfd*

I received this recent notice from the State Consumer Affairs Office, listing opportunities to meet with various state agencies, 

and *to file complaints with those agencies, if so desired.*

Three locations: Worcester, Springfield and New Bedford
all on different dates. 

_'Dear Consumer:

In the past you emailed our office about a consumer question or complaint.

We want you to know that the Patrick-Murray Administration's Office of Consumer Affairs & Business Regulation will host three Consumer Days to provide Worcester, Springfield and New Bedford area residents with information about important consumer issues. 

Representatives from the 
*Office of Consumer Affairs, *
Division of Banks, 
Division of Insurance, 
*Division of Professional Licensure, *
Division of Standards, and the 
Department of Telecommunications and Cable will distribute informational brochures, answer consumer questions and demonstrate online options. Staff from each agency will be on site to take and address complaints. Consumers who sign up for the Consumer Insider, our bi-monthly newsletter, will be entered into a raffle drawing to win a prize.

The schedule for Consumer Days is as follows:

Worcester
Worcester City Hall
455 Main Street - at the corner of Main and Front streets
September 15, 2011 rain date: September 22
9 am to 5 pm

Springfield
Tower Square
1500 Main Street
Downstairs outside the Dunkin' Donuts from 9 to 11, upstairs in the food court from 11 to 2
September 29, 2011 (no rain date: indoor venue)
9 am to 2 pm

New Bedford
New Bedford Public Library
613 Pleasant Street
October 13, 2011 (rain date: October 19)
9 am to 5 pm

Please feel free to pass this information on to your family, friends and colleagues.

We look forward to seeing you there. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Nicole Sanders O'Toole
Director of Consumer Education
Office of Consumer Affairs and Business Regulation'_

Just thought I'd post the information in case anyone is interested.


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## Sou13

*Auction*



ChrisH said:


> The auction of forfeited/default units took place Mon., Aug 22nd.  Approx 1100 units were offered.
> 
> There were only a handful of bidders for available units, the remainder of units were bid on and 'purchased back' by the Royal Coachman/Sandcaslte Resort Condominium Associations.
> 
> It only took 1 1/2 hrs to complete the sale of all those units/weeks.



Did any of the bidders get the weeks they wanted?  

Was the starting bid the amount of MF due, and did the auctioneer get 20%?  

Did the ad in the Provincetown Banner specify the terms of the auction and give the specifics on the weeks up for auction?


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## PClapham

Can anyone tell me how to print a deed from the Barnstable Registry of Deeds?  I can get to the print icon but can't find any explanation how to pay the $1 per page.  I'm hoping it is not the $50 enrollment fee.

Thanks

Aks44062@yahoo.com


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## scrjs

*Does Hagberg think he is above the law?*

This is an update on my small claim against Sandcastle regarding the improper calculation of the special assessment which resulted in my husband and I receiving an overcharge of several hundreds of dollars because the trustees refused to  use the percentages that are outlined in the timeshare document to calculate the assessment. Maybe the math was too hard. Instead they decided to divide the total amount by 3300 which is the number of owners they thought would pay. (Remebering that their are over 5000 owners and Cliff Hagberg has declared that he does not have to pay any fees for the units he owns through his company NEVS even though he seems to be profting from renting them out.)

Since receiving the special assessment bill in 2009, my husband and I have tried several times in good faith to settle the dispute over the special assessment by sending certified letters to Cliff Hagberg (trustee and manager) then to the trustees in general, but we never got a response. It is shocking to think that a company would not even bother to respond to certified letters, but that is what happened. If  anyone attended the annual meeting in 2010, you may remember that I brought this up and asked for an explanation as to why the procedure outlined in the Timeshare document -- our contract with Sandcastle-- wasn’t used. Hagberg said he didn’t know -- he wasn't an attorney. I asked if they attorney could attend a meeting and Hagberg said, "No." I asked how I could settle the matter and Hagberg said "Go to court," so he left us no alternative. 

We filed our claim and went to a hearing in November 2011 which Hagberg attended. The magistrate asked for his side of the matter and he said that he was aware of how the Master Deed said he was supposed to calculate the assessment, but the Master Deed didn't say he couldn't calculate it the way he did! This is the logic I would expect of a third grader. Hagberg has said on many occasions that he is not an attorney and this is apparently true since he doesn't seem to have the slightest understanding of the meaning of a contract.  Hagberg claims to be an expert on timeshare law, but is apparently not aware of the section of Massachusetts timeshare law that states: 

_all time-share expenses shall be assessed against all the time-shares in accordance with the allocation set forth in the time-share instrument _

His other argument was that he had asked several other timeshare managers if he could calculate the bill by dividing by an arbitrary number and they said it was OK! 

The magistrate agreed with us and told Hagberg that he needed to return the overpayment we had made on the special assessment and also the value of a weeks stay at Sandcastle, since we were refused access to our unit when we went down last October.

In response to the letter we sent following the hearing asking for a revised bill,  Hagberg wrote stating that in his opinion the case had not been properly adjudicated!  Wow -- that is a pretty strong opinion from someone who repeatedly says he can't comment on anything legal since he isn't an attorney. 

Since then we have not received the payment that the court ordered and no one attended the payment review hearing in February or a motion hearing this week.

As a result of all this the Royal Coachman Trust and Sandcastle Resort have now been ruled in contempt of court and a warrant has been issued. Of course Hagberg has proven notoriously difficult to serve  in the past, but I will keep this forum posted.


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## scrjs

*Sandcastle Resort in Provincetown, Ma in contempt of court*

I just finished reading Cliff Hagberg's blog "Timeshare Musings" where he talks about his sensitivity to his reputation on the internet, so I am starting with a new heading so that this post might end up on the first page of a google search. See my posting above for a summary of the events that led to Sanddcastle Resort and the Royal Coachman Trust being judged in contempt of court.


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## Classylassy523

*Sandcastle Owner going to court*

Four years later and the struggle continues. The Brennan family (deeded owner) has a court date.

*Brennan vs. Hagberg. August 9, 2012 at the Orleans District Court, 237 Rock Harbor Road, Orleans, Massachusetts.*

Tom Mitchell, another deeded Sandcastle owner will be at the resort that week and will be attending. He has asked that I post this and if there is anyone who will be at the resort or in the area that week and would like to attend the court hearing to contact him and he will be glad to provide transportation.

Tom Mitchell ... Week 31, Unit 220. You can reach him via email: tominspfld@gmail.com or cell phone: 860-989-5685


Mr. Brennan's description of the case:

Summarization of Case: developer doesn't pay its share and this inflates your cost, Sandcastle Resort is a sole propreitorship of Hagberg that doesn't follow the common area percentage and commingles trust funds... and defalcations (who pays the developer share? property taxes?) fraud (billings and financial summaries and letter responses to questions), constructive fraud (Festiva), conspiracy to commit larceny (repeated overbilling, ignoring off season week half share, special assessment illegal and unlawful) mail fraud (Festiva, annual assessments not according to common area percentage, 1 response letters says Intercity pays same as every owner (lies) - all enabled by the trickery of it being an investment contract with an approval process of sending a bill and receiving a check (the approval)

Extortion: as a "holder" of information, that makes the collector of the money an official agent, so demanding more money and getting it as the owner fears personal damage to their credit rating is extortion by Mass. law definition - if Sandcastle Resort is not delegated this authority, then they cannot collect the taxes, can they? I am sure this topic will be seriously argued, but if they win that idea they are not delegated agents of the trusts' trustees, then surely its a sole propreitorship based on the business name certificate filing, therefore the one who must pay will be Hagberg PERSONALLY, which was the point...

Aiding and abetting breach of fiduciary duty: this and Chapter 230 section 5 enables a beneficiary to sue any and all third parties who are screwing the trusts...

All I have to prove is that they knew it. It's hard to pretend Hagberg didn't know when he is trustee, developer, managing entity, and Sandcastle Resort (still not sure what the demarcations of when each position starts and stops and what each one actually does -since Hagberg claims all the contracts are private)


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## NEVMSLLC

*Sandcastle Owner Going to Court*

The case was dismissed.


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## ChrisH

*Sandcastle MORE SPECIAL ASSESSMENTS - VOTE!*

Management sent out a letter about 2 weeks ago about additional Special Assessments at Sandcastle

The first additional Special Assessment  will be due January 1, 2013

The mailing also included: 
6 more pages of proposed Special Assessments on a BALLOT.
The total off all these Special Assessments amounts to approximately $1152 per unit owned.

The ballot(s) are due back at Sandcastle by October 15th.

There is a meeting in Provincetown on October 20th to discuss the results.

I have heard from several owners who did not receive any letter or ballot(s).  If you are among those owners, you need to contact the resort at 508.487.9300 immediately  or go to www.Sandcastlecapecod.com and use the contact us link and inform them that you haven't received this correspondence.

You need to VOTE


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## Classylassy523

*Re-establish the Sandcastle Owners Association*

Are you an owner at Sandcastle Resort and Condominium in Provincetown, MA? 

There is a group of owners trying to re-establish the Owners Association. 

With this latest go-round of proposed Special Assessments planned over the next three years, it is imperative that owners group together and do something to have a meaningful say about what happens at our resort. 

Management has repeatedly refused access to the owners list at the resort even though the Deeds and Trusts clearly state that owners are to be provided with the list when a request is made. I have previously posted this request on the Sandcastle Resort Facebook page but it was removed in a matter of hours. I also submitted a written request to post this on the Owners/Members secure section of the resort website (supposedly the area where owners can communicate) but have received no response from management. For these reasons I am turning to TUG and other media to get the word out to Sandcastle owners.

If you are going to the meeting at the resort that is scheduled for October 20, 2012, at noon, you can contact me there. If you are unable to attend the meeting and are interested in re-establishing the Owners Association, or if you don't want to wait for the meeting you can contact me through TUG. 

FYI ... I have checked with the resort office staff and questioned how the ballots would be handled. I was told that the Office Manager would count the ballots (she works for the owners) and then the ballots would be turned over to Cliff Hagberg (he owns the management company). I asked how possible ties would be handled, especially with the multiple choice questions and was told that that was unknown at that time. When I asked if there would be a separate company responsible for verifying and certifying the count ... I was that there was not. These ballots represent approximately $3 million and could mean a total of $1,200.00 in assessments for each unit. With this amount of money coming directly out of the pockets of deeded owners, a verified/certified ballot count is very important.

Thank you,
Jean Gallant
Deeded Owner
Week 40


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