# Use to work in sales at Wyndham



## ExSalesman2018 (Jun 25, 2018)

I can help you guys with any questions or issues or concerns you have with your Wyndham ownership. I was with Wyndham for 3 years and was a presidents club members. I sold $4.4 million dollars worth of volume in 2012. NOW before I get persecuted, I had 1 customer complaint that was not worthy or even being written on paper. I will be happy to tell you the truth whether its what you want to hear or not. I never sold out of fear or "scare" tactics, I sold the product.

Thanks!


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## Avislo (Jun 25, 2018)

What is going on currently with Wyndham Resort Sales?


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## wjappraise (Jun 25, 2018)

Were you working with Wyndham during 2016-2017 when Wyndham placed perhaps 100 or more of us on suspension without warning?  If so, what was the corporate baloney they passed on to you for the reason we got treated like criminals?  

I’m still salty about it.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jun 25, 2018)

I was not. I left in 2013 when they went to the Podium stuff.. Garbage....


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Jun 25, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> I can help you guys with any questions or issues or concerns you have with your Wyndham ownership. I was with Wyndham for 3 years and was a presidents club members. I sold $4.4 million dollars worth of volume in 2012. NOW before I get persecuted, I had 1 customer complaint that was not worthy or even being written on paper. I will be happy to tell you the truth whether its what you want to hear or not. I never sold out of fear or "scare" tactics, I sold the product.
> 
> Thanks!



Welcome to TUG - as a member .
I see you listed a Marriott ownership . I am sure you will find information in that forum that will be of help .

*****
Assuming you had some vacation in 2012 - that works out to about $ 100K in sales a week . Does that mean you closed 4 in 5 or was it the close rate lower but the bigger points sales pushed up the average ?
Just curious -  as a person in sales .


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## Panina (Jun 25, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> I can help you guys with any questions or issues or concerns you have with your Wyndham ownership. I was with Wyndham for 3 years and was a presidents club members. I sold $4.4 million dollars worth of volume in 2012. NOW before I get persecuted, I had 1 customer complaint that was not worthy or even being written on paper. I will be happy to tell you the truth whether its what you want to hear or not. I never sold out of fear or "scare" tactics, I sold the product.
> 
> Thanks!



Welcome ! Earlier in the evening I believe you had a different guest name that you changed to exsalesman2018.  Old name was like you had a business to promote.  Do you own a business or are trying to promote something?


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jun 25, 2018)

Panina, I did have a difference name, but the moderator messaged me and told me to change it. I changed it to the current name.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jun 25, 2018)

T-Dot, my site was seasonal, we saw most of our business between April-September. So its hard to say an average week etc. I sold everything from $6200 to $149k


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jun 25, 2018)

T-Dot the biggest factor in sales was Rescission rate. My was always under 11%. Because I followed up with my people, and they had no lies to catch me in on the backside.


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## LisaH (Jun 26, 2018)

What’s your take on the separation of Wyndham hotel business from timeshare? Do you think the timeshare business is stronger after the split or weaker?


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## Jimag (Jun 26, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> I can help you guys with any questions or issues or concerns you have with your Wyndham ownership. I was with Wyndham for 3 years and was a presidents club members. I sold $4.4 million dollars worth of volume in 2012. NOW before I get persecuted, I had 1 customer complaint that was not worthy or even being written on paper. I will be happy to tell you the truth whether its what you want to hear or not. I never sold out of fear or "scare" tactics, I sold the product.
> 
> Thanks!


In my experience, the sales folks seemed to be locally recruited from the real estate industry.  Is my observation correct?  Does Wyndham also recruit sales people nationally, train them in Orlando or NJ or some other central location, and then make assignments to various properties?  Is the corporate play book written in black letters or is their room for local deviation?  It seems to me that, whenever I attend a presentation, the sales playbook is customized for me in Orlando?  Is this just paranoia on my part?


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## Jcbrezinka (Jun 26, 2018)

We own PR Sundara in Wisconsin Dells and we are told we should switch to New York or National Harbor for better RCI trading power- does anyone know about trading power values? Is this accurate? The sales guy says New York and National Harbor trade at 60 and Sundara at 20-30. Please help!


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## Jan M. (Jun 26, 2018)

Jcbrezinka said:


> We own PR Sundara in Wisconsin Dells and we are told we should switch to New York or National Harbor for better RCI trading power- does anyone know about trading power values? Is this accurate? The sales guy says New York and National Harbor trade at 60 and Sundara at 20-30. Please help!



Lies. Answered this on your thread. Owning Wyndham points anywhere has absolutely nothing to do with RCI trading power.


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## wjappraise (Jun 26, 2018)

Jcbrezinka said:


> We own PR Sundara in Wisconsin Dells and we are told we should switch to New York or National Harbor for better RCI trading power- does anyone know about trading power values? Is this accurate? The sales guy says New York and National Harbor trade at 60 and Sundara at 20-30. Please help!



As Jan noted here, there simply is no truth to what is being stated by your salesman.  As Wyndham points are placed into RCI with no regard to home resort, this is a blatant lie by the salesman to attempt to get you to change your contract, upgrading to a larger one, and switching to a different home resort.  If you had an ownership with the home resort in NYC or DC, the salesman may well have told you that you needed to switch to Sundara. . . I detest this type of salesmanship that is based upon lies, and false fears.


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## sandkastle4966 (Jun 26, 2018)

re: regarding RCI trading power between the 2 resorts....Sales will say they its true...and they can show it......technically it is true.......in RCI WEEKS side, that is accurate.  However,  Wyndham points owners do* NOT* use the WEEKS side of RCI.   Soooo... wrong, not applicable.  Not apples to apples.


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## schoolmarm (Jun 26, 2018)

My points Wyndham account came with RCI WEEKS...not that I use it, but it is full weeks and not points.


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## Lisa P (Jun 26, 2018)

Regardless of whether your Wyndham points are traded out via RCI Weeks or RCI Points, all Wyndham points carry the same "trade power" when *trading out* of Wyndham via RCI.  All Wyndham owners who want to trade out via RCI will use the same number of points for a given exchange, according to a *posted exchange grid*.  It doesn't matter where the owner's home resort is based.  For exchanging purposes, Wyndham points = Wyndham points, with identical trade power.

Sales may point to the various numbers of points required of someone from outside Wyndham who wants to *trade in* to various Wyndham resorts via RCI.  If they suggest this means that the points from different home resorts are "worth" different trading power, they're either ridiculously uninformed or lying.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jun 26, 2018)

Jimag said:


> In my experience, the sales folks seemed to be locally recruited from the real estate industry.  Is my observation correct?  Does Wyndham also recruit sales people nationally, train them in Orlando or NJ or some other central location, and then make assignments to various properties?  Is the corporate play book written in black letters or is their room for local deviation?  It seems to me that, whenever I attend a presentation, the sales playbook is customized for me in Orlando?  Is this just paranoia on my part?



The sales forces are recruited from all over, I was a restaurant manager before I joined Wyndham. There is a training at the beginning, and after that its what you pick up from this and that. Alot of the Wyndham issues are Hype, and just because someone bought from the resort, they are getting "screwed" This is not true all the time. There are bad apples in every orchard. This is no different.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jun 26, 2018)

Jcbrezinka said:


> We own PR Sundara in Wisconsin Dells and we are told we should switch to New York or National Harbor for better RCI trading power- does anyone know about trading power values? Is this accurate? The sales guy says New York and National Harbor trade at 60 and Sundara at 20-30. Please help!


If you are going to switch PR for RCI trading power, you are in the wrong program. Go buy a bunch of RCI points. If you want to lower fees, Last time I looked, I would either switch to Panama City Beach PR or Canterbury San Fran PR


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jun 27, 2018)

Lisa P said:


> Regardless of whether your Wyndham points are traded out via RCI Weeks or RCI Points, all Wyndham points carry the same "trade power" when *trading out* of Wyndham via RCI.  All Wyndham owners who want to trade out via RCI will use the same number of points for a given exchange, according to a *posted exchange grid*.  It doesn't matter where the owner's home resort is based.  For exchanging purposes, Wyndham points = Wyndham points, with identical trade power.
> 
> Sales may point to the various numbers of points required of someone from outside Wyndham who wants to *trade in* to various Wyndham resorts via RCI.  If they suggest this means that the points from different home resorts are "worth" different trading power, they're either ridiculously uninformed or lying.



THE ONLY time your points location matter is with your ARP and whether you have a reciprocal or not. CWA offers 13mth priority at alot of resorts, BUT if you look at the inventory book (Been a while since I have) you will see its LOADED with sea gardens, and Avenue Plaza etc, and there is very little National Harbor, Royal Vista etc.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jun 27, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> If you are going to switch PR for RCI trading power, you are in the wrong program. Go buy a bunch of RCI points. If you want to lower fees, Last time I looked, I would either switch to Panama City Beach PR or Canterbury San Fran PR



LAST TIME I was selling for wyndham, you could trade PR to PR by buying 105,000 points. NOW that may have changed but I used to move PR to Panama City Beach all the time, because the fee's were SO much lower, you could add 105,000 points and drop your maint $100 a month


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## dioxide45 (Jun 27, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Welcome to TUG - as a member .
> I see you listed a Marriott ownership . I am sure you will find information in that forum that will be of help .


There is no "Marriott Apple Valley" timeshare property...


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## Lisa P (Jun 27, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> CWA offers 13mth priority at alot of resorts, BUT if you look at the inventory book (Been a while since I have) you will see its LOADED with sea gardens, and Avenue Plaza etc, and there is very little National Harbor, Royal Vista etc.


CWA inventory book???  What is this?  Is this information available to CWA owners?



ExSalesman2018 said:


> LAST TIME I was selling for wyndham, you could trade PR to PR by buying 105,000 points. NOW that may have changed but I used to move PR to Panama City Beach all the time, because the fee's were SO much lower, you could add 105,000 points and drop your maint $100 a month


You say this as if spending _another_ chunk of money ($10K? $15K? more?) on developer points, _just_ to reduce maintenance fees is a generally GOOD idea.    How many years to break even on that pressure cooker decision?  There's no assurance that maintenance fees will remain lower over those years or the buyer will _ever_ break even.  This reasoning is, IMO, definitely from a Sales perspective, not from an Owner's perspective.


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## tschwa2 (Jun 27, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> THE ONLY time your points location matter is with your ARP and whether you have a reciprocal or not. CWA offers 13mth priority at alot of resorts, BUT if you look at the inventory book (Been a while since I have) you will see its LOADED with sea gardens, and Avenue Plaza etc, and there is very little National Harbor, Royal Vista etc.


Through Ovations they have added a lot of inventory in the last 5 years.   It isn't all junk and leftovers like it was when it originally started.


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## Jan M. (Jun 27, 2018)

Lisa P said:


> You say this as if spending _another_ chunk of money ($10K? $15K? more?) on developer points, _just_ to reduce maintenance fees is a generally GOOD idea.  How many years to break even on that pressure cooker decision? There's no assurance that maintenance fees will remain lower over those years or the buyer will _ever_ break even. This reasoning is, IMO, definitely from a Sales perspective, not from an Owner's perspective.



All of our maintenance fees have always been lower and drastically lower than CWA. The increases to CWA have always been higher than where we own. Someone who owned the same number of points we do but in CWA would be spending about $2400 a year more in maintenance fees. So it would take less than 5 years to recover that $10k. For some people, especially those planning on being in Wyndham for years to come, that would be a smart move. We've owned for 17 years so I tend to take the long view and use our personal experience with maintenance fees. Btw we've never had a special assessment at any of the resorts we've owned at in all those years either. This isn't a one size fits all situation. For some people it would be a smart move and for others wouldn't make any sense at all.

Based on what we've been hearing from OP it sure seems like anyone wanting to change what they have or purchase more developer points would be wise to use Wyndham corporate telesales and not darken the door of a sales center. Having the calls recorded and all documents emailed for you to look over and ask questions here on TUG or call back to ask prior to signing instead of being coerced to sign so you can escape the lying sales people seems like the only way to go.


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## wjappraise (Jun 27, 2018)

Lisa P said:


> You say this as if spending _another_ chunk of money ($10K? $15K? more?) on developer points, _just_ to reduce maintenance fees is a generally GOOD idea.    How many years to break even on that pressure cooker decision?  There's no assurance that maintenance fees will remain lower over those years or the buyer will _ever_ break even.  This reasoning is, IMO, definitely from a Sales perspective, not from an Owner's perspective.



I’m just piggybacking on what Jan stated.  If a PR owner of 2,000,000 points can switch resorts and save $2.00 per thousand points per year, that’s $4,000 savings per year. Wouldn’t take too many years to recoup purchase price.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jun 27, 2018)

tschwa2 said:


> Through Ovations they have added a lot of inventory in the last 5 years.   It isn't all junk and leftovers like it was when it originally started.



Like I said, its been a while hahaha


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jun 27, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> All of our maintenance fees have always been lower and drastically lower than CWA. The increases to CWA have always been higher than where we own. Someone who owned the same number of points we do but in CWA would be spending about $2400 a year more in maintenance fees. So it would take less than 5 years to recover that $10k. For some people, especially those planning on being in Wyndham for years to come, that would be a smart move. We've owned for 17 years so I tend to take the long view and use our personal experience with maintenance fees. Btw we've never had a special assessment at any of the resorts we've owned at in all those years either. This isn't a one size fits all situation. For some people it would be a smart move and for others wouldn't make any sense at all.
> 
> Based on what we've been hearing from OP it sure seems like anyone wanting to change what they have or purchase more developer points would be wise to use Wyndham corporate telesales and not darken the door of a sales center. Having the calls recorded and all documents emailed for you to look over and ask questions here on TUG or call back to ask prior to signing instead of being coerced to sign so you can escape the lying sales people seems like the only way to go.


 
I agree 100% with your first comment. 2nd, the best decision is to KNOW when you go in, you dont have to sign anything. Coerced or NOT. They dont physically grab your hand and make you sign. THE BEST defense is a good Offense. Take a recorder and tell the rep you are going to record everything they are going to say, and you want copies of EVERY document they present to you. More than likely 99% will say have a good day. Me, personally, I wouldnt care if you recorded or not, I WELCOMED it, because some of these Buyers are ALSO liars. The complaint I had was from a couple who bought 500,000 points in December 11'. They saw me in December 12', I told them they had a price freeze for 1 year and they could get another 500k points to be platinum at the same price they paid in 11'. Which is 100% accurate. They complained and said they did not know they were buying anything, yet she filled out Bill Me Later and used her PERSONAL CC for a 19k down payment in which she SIGNED the receipt for. So some of the stories you hear are buyers who ARE IN FACT liars. NOW the majority of the sales people will say whatever is needed to get the deal.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jun 27, 2018)

wjappraise said:


> I’m just piggybacking on what Jan stated.  If a PR owner of 2,000,000 points can switch resorts and save $2.00 per thousand points per year, that’s $4,000 savings per year. Wouldn’t take too many years to recoup purchase price.



It was a great sale and a real sale. When you can have PR (Which you have spend 150k+ on). Why not spend the extra 15k-20k and save 1000-2000 a year in maint. It was a EASY sale because it was truthful and made sense.


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## ronparise (Jun 27, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> Like I said, its been a while hahaha



It wasn’t just junk and left overs in the beginning. In the beginning they actively managed the trust to keep mf at a certain level. Put simply, for every high mf contract they got they had to get a low mf contract to offset it

I attended two or three of the annual meetingss and talked to the board about this. The may have been lying but the results spoke for themselves. CWA mf was in the early years below average


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## ronparise (Jun 27, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> I agree 100% with your first comment. 2nd, the best decision is to KNOW when you go in, you dont have to sign anything. Coerced or NOT. They dont physically grab your hand and make you sign. THE BEST defense is a good Offense. Take a recorder and tell the rep you are going to record everything they are going to say, and you want copies of EVERY document they present to you. More than likely 99% will say have a good day. Me, personally, I wouldnt care if you recorded or not, I WELCOMED it, because some of these Buyers are ALSO liars. The complaint I had was from a couple who bought 500,000 points in December 11'. They saw me in December 12', I told them they had a price freeze for 1 year and they could get another 500k points to be platinum at the same price they paid in 11'. Which is 100% accurate. They complained and said they did not know they were buying anything, yet she filled out Bill Me Later and used her PERSONAL CC for a 19k down payment in which she SIGNED the receipt for. So some of the stories you hear are buyers who ARE IN FACT liars. NOW the majority of the sales people will say whatever is needed to get the deal.



The best defense is to know the product as well as they do, or better


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jun 28, 2018)

ronparise said:


> It wasn’t just junk and left overs in the beginning. In the beginning they actively managed the trust to keep mf at a certain level. Put simply, for every high mf contract they got they had to get a low mf contract to offset it
> 
> I attended two or three of the annual meetingss and talked to the board about this. The may have been lying but the results spoke for themselves. CWA mf was in the early years below average



Mr. Parise, 

When CWA came out, it was mostly inventory the company couldnt sell or use. IE. Sea Gardens, Avenue Plaza, Fairfield Bay, Fairfield Glade. 

THE PITCH was you can get at "any" of the resorts in CWA with a 13mth priority. What they DIDNT tell you was, you can book The Glade all day at 13 mths out, but try to get Panama City Beach or Ocean Blvd.. Hahah best of luck. 

And a maintenance fee being managed? I dont call over $5.00 being managed. I call it, someone is fueling their jet with the profits.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jun 28, 2018)

ronparise said:


> It wasn’t just junk and left overs in the beginning. In the beginning they actively managed the trust to keep mf at a certain level. Put simply, for every high mf contract they got they had to get a low mf contract to offset it
> 
> I attended two or three of the annual meetingss and talked to the board about this. The may have been lying but the results spoke for themselves. CWA mf was in the early years below average



Its always gonna be low in the early years, to get people in it. Just like Atlantic City back in the day, in december is was like 3.xx / 1000 in january it was over 6.xx / 1000

Get em and jack it up. 

Last I heard, to trade OUT of CWA you had to buy 150% of what you owned in CWA. Any truth to that?


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## ronparise (Jun 28, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> Mr. Parise,
> 
> When CWA came out, it was mostly inventory the company couldnt sell or use. IE. Sea Gardens, Avenue Plaza, Fairfield Bay, Fairfield Glade.
> 
> ...


 We aren’t talking about arp. The discussion was about maintenance fees. And the goal, stated at the annual meetings I attended was to keep mf at or below average.

These annual meetings were lightly attended and I was able to speak to Mark Gray (the association president) and the treasurer (Hernandez) personally after the meeting

As I said above they may have been lying but the real proof that they weren’t was in my own accounts.  I have owned contracts deeded at nearly all the resorts  and twice have owned over 30 million points. I was not careful about buying only the low mf, I took everything that I was offered for free and that I could buy at low prices.  What im saying is that I owned the averages. And my average mf  was about what CWA was. 

It’s only recently that the CWA mf has gotten a little above average

I think the misconception is that only the high mf contracts go back through Ovation. And before Ovation only folks that owned the high priced contracts paid the post card companies to get rid of them.  I was able to get as many Bali Hai and National Harbor and Panama City points for free or neerly so, as the higher mf contracts

I have seen the CWA book and I was allowed to review it at length (in the San Diego sales room) my interest was only New Orleans ( I wanted to determine whether I should buy CWA or labella points for arp.  

I had been told that the goal was for CWA to own 25% of all the resorts and I confirmed that they weee there at Labelle    If CWA ends up owning 25% of everything then CWA mf will be “average”

The newer resorts with the higher points value, assuming that some of these places geo to CWA, will serve to push down the averages. Not push them up


When I was going to wyndham sales meetings, my experience was that I knew more about the product and how to use it than any of the sales people or sales managers that I met. Once the sales staff at a property figured out that they couldn’t snow me, they threw me out or let me teach them a thing or two

Don’t get me wrong, I attended those sales meetings to learn what I could, and I did learn some things, but usually the flow of information went from me to them


 bottom  line is that I’d advise the folks here on tug to take what any “expert” (including me) might say here with a grain of salt.


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## Jan M. (Jun 28, 2018)

I've always said from when Wyndham first introduced CWA that it was a genius move on their part to unload what they had trouble selling. And it got them out of having to pay the high maintenance fees on that unsold inventory they couldn't unload. My husband still remembers me looking at the list of resorts in CWA saying they were resorts I could get stays pretty much anytime without needing the 13 month window. Basically junk. But over time more resorts now have inventory in CWA. 

We used to go to the updates several times a year until sometime in 2013. At that point we weren't learning anything new or useful and we found the amount of lying extremely offensive and something we hadn't encountered in the past. From the onset of CWA there has never been a time that the maintenance fees were lower than what we owned.

When CWA began the number of foreclosures was high in real estate and timeshares were hit hard. I've never been sure how or why Wyndham allowed the older resorts to get in the shape they were in but CWA funneled money into updates and upgrades at older resorts badly in need of them.


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## Nomad34 (Jun 28, 2018)

Our meeting in Glade last year trying to resolve the split resulted in learning that our original ownership at Fairway Forest Sapphire Valley was going to be upgraded this year. Our unit at Glade had just been renovated and appeared very up to date .I agree with Jan about many of her posts and wish the best for ones who are of knowing the best and worst of Wyndham but still hold on and look for good changes. I have enjoyed the years of ownership and just finished booking this year's points in hopes of relinquishing by November. Wyndham Cares hopefully will do more than ovation.


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## Jimag (Jun 28, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> Its always gonna be low in the early years, to get people in it. Just like Atlantic City back in the day, in december is was like 3.xx / 1000 in january it was over 6.xx / 1000
> 
> Get em and jack it up.
> 
> Last I heard, to trade OUT of CWA you had to buy 150% of what you owned in CWA. Any truth to that?



You also said in response to Ron Parise: "And a maintenance fee being managed? I dont call over $5.00 being managed. I call it, someone is fueling their jet with the profits."   

Are you saying that MFs at Wyndham managed properties have no relation to actual property expenses, such as salaries for maintenance staff, insurance, landscaping, repairs, contributions to reserves, real estate taxes, management company (Wyndham) fees, etc.?  Are you suggesting Wyndham is vulnerable to the charge that their management services fees are fraudulent and unreasonable?  Aren't the financial statements of the various properties audited similarly to the financial statements of condominiums and cooperatives?


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## Railman83 (Jun 28, 2018)

ronparise said:


> We aren’t talking about arp. The discussion was about maintenance fees. And the goal, stated at the annual meetings I attended was to keep mf at or below average.
> 
> These annual meetings were lightly attended and I was able to speak to Mark Gray (the association president) and the treasurer (Hernandez) personally after the meeting
> 
> ...


Ron:

Somewhere you gave an analysis of why Wyndham would never alter the club to restrict resale to their home resorts.

My question is, given the CWA product ramp up and Wyndham attempting to corner the resale market do you still believe that is true?

My concern is Wyndham would cease the program to shake the tree and incentivize resale owners to turn in a product they can no longer use.   Hope I’m wrong but what do you think?


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## ronparise (Jun 28, 2018)

Railman83 said:


> Ron:
> 
> Somewhere you gave an analysis of why Wyndham would never alter the club to restrict resale to their home resorts.
> 
> ...



Club Wyndham is an exchange club

I give my right to use one resort and in exchange I can make reservations at the other resorts,,, The details of how it works are spelled out in the Fairshare Trust agreement

to remove my ownership from the trust, hurts me to be sure, but dosent it hurt the other owners even more by reducing inventory that was once available to them

All Im saying is that removing inventory from the trust would frustrate the purpose of the trust...it just dosnt make sense to me


Having said that... I do believe that wyndam is looking to the future and they are worried. Will the timeshare business model continue to be viable?   I think that they are developing other ways or working the club..(like short term RTUs and rentals and god knows what else)  but I think whatever the future brings, lots of available inventory will still be important which means they wont be removing inventory from the club.. Wyndham may end up owning more of it, but I cant see them removing inventory from the club


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## ronparise (Jun 28, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> Mr. Parise,
> 
> When CWA came out, it was mostly inventory the company couldnt sell or use. IE. Sea Gardens, Avenue Plaza, Fairfield Bay, Fairfield Glade.
> 
> ...




Im sure you know all about sales, but this comment shows you dont know much about what goes on at the resort level or in Peter Hernandez' shop regarding budgeting


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jun 29, 2018)

ronparise said:


> e there at Labelle If CWA ends up o





Jimag said:


> You also said in response to Ron Parise: "And a maintenance fee being managed? I dont call over $5.00 being managed. I call it, someone is fueling their jet with the profits."
> 
> Are you saying that MFs at Wyndham managed properties have no relation to actual property expenses, such as salaries for maintenance staff, insurance, landscaping, repairs, contributions to reserves, real estate taxes, management company (Wyndham) fees, etc.?  Are you suggesting Wyndham is vulnerable to the charge that their management services fees are fraudulent and unreasonable?  Aren't the financial statements of the various properties audited similarly to the financial statements of condominiums and cooperatives?



I am not saying ANY thing is fraud or unreasonable. I'm saying there is a breakdown of the fees and where they go...... But you truly get a accurate picture you would have to break it down further than the budget shows.. ONCE AGAIN. I enjoyed my time at Wyndham, their resorts are great, and they run a CLASS A employment program. Their benefits are beyond great...


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## Jan M. (Jun 29, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> I'm saying there is a breakdown of the fees and where they go...... But to truly get a accurate picture you would have to break it down further than the budget shows



I've been treasurer for several different organizations over the years and have worked in bookkeeping. I'm very good with numbers and compiling them to get figures for reports. Numbers can be spun just as easily as words. There is a lot I would like to see the broken down on the budget that's presented.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jun 30, 2018)

OP,

We just signed a WCA deal for 126k annual points at $145/1000 points for under 20k all in.  MFs are around 800/year.  Got some bonus points and VIP Silver through 2020 and a couple RCI free weeks thrown in.  Good deal or should we rescind based upon your experience as a former WCA sales rep?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ronparise (Jun 30, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> OP,
> 
> We just signed a WCA deal for 126k annual points at $145/1000 points for under 20k all in.  MFs are around 800/year.  Got some bonus points and VIP Silver through 2020 and a couple RCI free weeks thrown in.  Good deal or should we rescind based upon your experience as a former WCA sales rep?
> 
> ...




Not the OP but when Wyndham is selling this stuff every day for $200/1000; $145 looks pretty good  and a maintenance fee rate of $6.3 is probably about todays average.. So great job and a great price


On the other hand you spent $18000  The same number of points could be had for under $1000 on ebay


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## ronparise (Jun 30, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> I've been treasurer for several different organizations over the years and have worked in bookkeeping. I'm very good with numbers and compiling them to get figures for reports. Numbers can be spun just as easily as words. There is a lot I would like to see the broken down on the budget that's presented.




Those are serious charges, You are accusing Wyndham of stealing from the resorts and ultimately the owners... I just dont think that they need to do that,  There is enough stealing going on in the sales rooms  Thats where Wyndham makes their money  

about the maintenance fees, the only money that percolates up to Wyndham is the management fee.  certainly they make a lot with that, but its clear what they are taking in the budget

Unless of course you think they are getting kickbacks from the various electric companies and other service providers.


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## pedro47 (Jun 30, 2018)

I liked your sermons ronparise.


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## ddavid1073 (Jun 30, 2018)

Hi,
Could you verify for me that Wyndham Sales People are paid through "commission only"?  If that's true, I'd say that puts a lot of pressure on them to either make sales or not be able to support themselves.

I would think that is where a lot of their sales pressure and inaccurate statements come from.

I find that Wyndham points are a good value IF you purchase on the secondary market for pennies on the dollars of the original cost.

Purchasing from Wyndham is a loser as far as resale goes.  Would you care to speculate why Wyndham wouldn't repurchase many of the EBAY resales and then resell them at full or close to full price  In my mind it would drive up the cost of resales and thereby give the sales force additional reasons why it's a good idea to purchase through Wyndham.  Plus they would recoup their outlay times 50 on the resale of the resale.

Thanks!


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## cayman01 (Jun 30, 2018)

To the OP. What kind of commission rate do salesmen make on their sales. What is their actual skin in the game? Bonuses? Salary plus or straight commission?


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## Jan M. (Jun 30, 2018)

ronparise said:


> Those are serious charges, You are accusing Wyndham of stealing from the resorts and ultimately the owners... I just dont think that they need to do that,  There is enough stealing going on in the sales rooms  Thats where Wyndham makes their money
> 
> about the maintenance fees, the only money that percolates up to Wyndham is the management fee.  certainly they make a lot with that, but its clear what they are taking in the budget
> 
> Unless of course you think they are getting kickbacks from the various electric companies and other service providers.



Not accusing them of stealing at all. What I am saying is how easy it is to manipulate numbers to give a false or inaccurate impression. When people look at and base decisions or opinions on research, numbers, statistics most of them have no idea how easy it is to manipulate those things so people come to the conclusion you want them to. Numbers when not broken down and fully explained can be used. I never like hearing we did this to make it simpler for everyone to understand or that it's just too complex for anyone who isn't an accounting wizard to understand. And I have to admit that I've done that very thing. I've actually had to dumb down numbers to get people able to understand the big picture.

My old boss use to have this weird thing he said about numbers lie and liars number. He always said he trusted me like he trusted extremely few people. He knew both my husband and I, we are of a similar age and background, and he also knew that I am obsessive about making numbers tell the whole truth in detail. He usually didn't understand the numbers and wanted no part of hearing the explanations. Numbers people love for someone else to understand and be able to appreciate their work so that was kind of a disappointment. He also knew that made me feel extremely responsible to make sure those numbers told a true picture because he was making decisions based on them that affected not just him but everyone working for him.

The multimillion dollar question is always who do you trust or should you trust them? When a company fails to be transparent on everything they do and not only condones lying but promotes it then......

Whenever a person works with vendors, suppliers, etc. there is always the opportunity to benefit from kickbacks. I guess it depends on what a person considers kickbacks. To me they aren't always money or expensive things. They can be tickets to a game, a nice dinner for the person and their spouse/so, a golf outing. In my book they are still  kickbacks whether you call them that or tokens of appreciation from a vendor, supplier, etc. And it would be extremely naive of me to say it isn't commonplace. Whenever we're at a new resort or one that has been updated and I don't care for the new furnishings or find the sofa or chairs uncomfortable to sit in I always say jokingly to my husband that I hope someone got a big kickback. Otherwise there isn't any excuse for making such poor choices. Because for crying out loud this isn't HGTV, we actually want to sit and relax on this furniture!


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## Lisa P (Jun 30, 2018)

Duplicate, sorry.


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## Lisa P (Jun 30, 2018)

Duplicate - double sorry.  Ugh!


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## ronparise (Jun 30, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> Not accusing them of stealing at all. What I am saying is how easy it is to manipulate numbers to give a false or inaccurate impression. When people look at and base decisions or opinions on research, numbers, statistics most of them have no idea how easy it is to manipulate those things so people come to the conclusion you want them to. Numbers when not broken down and fully explained can be used. I never like hearing we did this to make it simpler for everyone to understand or that it's just too complex for anyone who isn't an accounting wizard to understand. And I have to admit that I've done that very thing. I've actually had to dumb down numbers to get people able to understand the big picture.
> 
> My old boss use to have this weird thing he said about numbers lie and liars number. He always said he trusted me like he trusted extremely few people. He knew both my husband and I, we are of a similar age and background, and he also knew that I am obsessive about making numbers tell the whole truth in detail. He usually didn't understand the numbers and wanted no part of hearing the explanations. Numbers people love for someone else to understand and be able to appreciate their work so that was kind of a disappointment. He also knew that made me feel extremely responsible to make sure those numbers told a true picture because he was making decisions based on them that affected not just him but everyone working for him.
> 
> ...



But a kickback would go to a crooked employee.not Wyndham

The charge made by our former salesman is that the numbers hide illegal payments to Wyndham


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## Jan M. (Jul 1, 2018)

ronparise said:


> But a kickback would go to a crooked employee.not Wyndham



I wouldn't call the employee crooked unless they were awarding contracts, business if someone paid them or to the one who paid them the most. Sometimes it's black or white but often there is a lot of gray area when it comes to kickbacks, tokens of appreciation or whatever. The intent of the giver and the recipient determine the ethics.

Years ago my husband received a ham delivered at Christmastime from a company that upon occasion did repair work that he as the insurance company and State inspector had to witness and sign off on. When my husband got home from work that day and saw who the ham was from he called the owner of the repair company. The owner explained that he had instructed his secretary to add my husband's name to their Christmas list in appreciation of how accommodating my husband was to making himself available to witness the repairs on the jobs his company did. He went on to say that my husband had a reputation with all the repair firms of being exacting about the quality of the work, that everyone knew if my husband said he wouldn't pass something, that the welds had to be cut out and done over or pipes replaced that my husband didn't back down and nothing changed his mind. Which sure made us wonder if that wasn't the case with guys who worked for other insurance companies. The owner said what he and the other repair companies truly appreciated was that my husband went out of his way to make himself available even if it meant getting up earlier, working later, skipping lunch to grab drive thru that he could eat on the way, coming out on holidays or adding more drive time to his day to accommodate the repair firms work schedules. The guys doing the work were usually union and even if they weren't made very good money. So when they had to wait on the inspector to start, finish or see the whole job and were often held up from going on to another job that cost the owners of the repair firms big bucks. We kind of chuckled about my husband being so accommodating as he set his own work schedule and accounted for his hours. If he worked through lunch, started earlier, worked later, came out on a holiday, then he gave himself that much time off on a day of his choosing. Anyhow the owner of the repair firm wrote a letter to my husband's company commending my husband for going out of his way to be accommodating to their work schedules and that the gift of the ham was given in appreciation for that, nothing more. That got my husband big brownie points of course. Knowing the whole thing made my husband uncomfortable I suggested that since a whole ham was a lot of ham for a family of three we could cut in half, buy a grocery store gift certificate to go with it and give it to a family we knew who really needed some help at that time.


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## Braindead (Jul 1, 2018)

A CPAs job is to make the numbers come out as close as they can according to their clients wishes.
That doesn’t mean that they lied or are crooked.
It’s just like doing your taxes.
It all gets reported it’s just a matter of where they get reported.
Different things like bad debt and depreciation can be wrote off all at once or over years.
Sometimes income can be deferred.
You could take the same numbers to five CPAs and get five different answers. 
A top notch CPA would give you all five answers and let the client make the final decision on which rout to take. 
Almost anything can be hidden in a different category.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 1, 2018)

ronparise said:


> But a kickback would go to a crooked employee.not Wyndham
> 
> The charge made by our former salesman is that the numbers hide illegal payments to Wyndham



Ron, you do like to take things out of context huh?

I never said anything about illegal payments to anyone. I said that some of the maint fee is going to Wyndham. Thats not illegal and they are not hiding it. They show it as "XXXXX Fee". My statement was where is that money accounted for?


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 1, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> OP,
> 
> We just signed a WCA deal for 126k annual points at $145/1000 points for under 20k all in.  MFs are around 800/year.  Got some bonus points and VIP Silver through 2020 and a couple RCI free weeks thrown in.  Good deal or should we rescind based upon your experience as a former WCA sales rep?
> 
> ...



I would never tell anyone to rescind a purchase. 1) Its unethical 2) It could be construed as Tortuous Interference and 3) As long as you feel it was a good deal, then go for it.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 1, 2018)

ddavid1073 said:


> Hi,
> Could you verify for me that Wyndham Sales People are paid through "commission only"?  If that's true, I'd say that puts a lot of pressure on them to either make sales or not be able to support themselves.
> 
> I would think that is where a lot of their sales pressure and inaccurate statements come from.
> ...



There are ALOT of jobs that are full commission only. Not sure timeshare sales. I do not think that a commission only jobs causes people to lie because of pressure. I think bad people lie because most of the time they can get away with it.


----------



## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 1, 2018)

cayman01 said:


> To the OP. What kind of commission rate do salesmen make on their sales. What is their actual skin in the game? Bonuses? Salary plus or straight commission?



The commission structure has changed so much since I was there. So I cannot comment on Wyndhams particular structure. 

I know the avg in the timeshare industry is somewhere between 6-12% base, plus anywhere from 1-15% bonus.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 1, 2018)

ronparise said:


> Not the OP but when Wyndham is selling this stuff every day for $200/1000; $145 looks pretty good  and a maintenance fee rate of $6.3 is probably about todays average.. So great job and a great price
> 
> 
> On the other hand you spent $18000  The same number of points could be had for under $1000 on ebay



I would say, it depends on what your long term goal is. You can buy ALL kinds of things on the secondary market. Cars, Houses, Timeshare etc. BUT when I buy a car, I choose to go to the Chevy dealership because I know what I'm getting. Timeshare is NOT a financial investment, whether you buy it from the developer OR on the resale market. There is little to no resale value on 99% of it. BUT the value is in vacations with your family.

I would near say that its not any cheaper even if you buy it resell, that just paying for it out of pocket. BUT what most people who own timeshare and pay maint fees find is that it forces them to take trips and do things, they ordinarily would not.


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## sparty (Jul 1, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> There is no "Marriott Apple Valley" timeshare property...


Maybe there was a missing "," but the only Apple Valley I know was in your area Dioxide45 and I thought it went out of business, blamed on owners throwing the developers out as mgmt company.


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## Lisa P (Jul 2, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> ...commission structure... in the timeshare industry is somewhere between 6-12% base, plus anywhere from 1-15% bonus.


So on a modest $20K purchase, timeshare salespeople are looking at $1,400-$5,400 commission.  And as they approach bonus quota levels, the payout balloons.  IMO, over time, this encourages salespeople to act more like sharks (creatures who will bite at anything that moves).


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## Lisa P (Jul 2, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> I would say, it depends on what your long term goal is. You can buy ALL kinds of things on the secondary market. Cars, Houses, Timeshare etc. BUT when I buy a car, I choose to go to the Chevy dealership because I know what I'm getting.


When buying a new car or new house or any tangible, new, large purchase *items* from the maker/builder, there may be significant (to you) benefits of being the first, exclusive, _sole owner and user_ of said items (first to sleep there, choose upgrades, make it your own).  Time*share* is not like this.

Also, as a new home/car buyer, you may experience some immediate depreciation but nothing like the 60-99% immediate depreciation on a "new" timeshare purchase.  If a resale purchase provides ALL of the benefits _most prized by the buyer_, then that buyer should not buy from the developer... even if it means they would *rescind* if they realize this after leaving the pressure cooker.   If they buy resale at the already-depreciated price, they don't risk losing as much to resell it again.

Further, I'd suggest that resale buyers are often more knowledgeable about "what they are getting" than developer buyers.  We don't see a lot of resale buyers asking questions based on misinformation they were given prior to purchase.


ExSalesman2018 said:


> Timeshare is NOT a financial investment... There is little to no resale value on 99% of it.


Thank you, you validate this point.


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## Lisa P (Jul 2, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> I would never tell anyone to rescind a purchase. 1) Its unethical 2) It could be construed as Tortuous Interference



UNETHICAL to rescind???    "construed as Tortuous Interference"???    Are you kidding!?!!?  "Cool off" rescission laws came about because of unethical, pressure cooker tactics and deceptive timeshare salespeople preying on vulnerable newbies and senior citizens.  These consumer protection laws exist for real estate, vehicle, timeshare, and many other large $ purchases for good REASON.    Get real.  These comments suggest you are not TUG-savvy nor consumer-friendly.  (Do you understand the ethic behind this web forum?)


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## Railman83 (Jul 2, 2018)

Lisa P said:


> UNETHICAL to rescind???    "construed as Tortuous Interference"???    Are you kidding!?!!?  "Cool off" rescission laws came about because of unethical, pressure cooker tactics and deceptive timeshare salespeople preying on vulnerable newbies and senior citizens.  These consumer protection laws exist for real estate, vehicle, timeshare, and many other large $ purchases for good REASON.    Get real.  These comments suggest you are not TUG-savvy nor consumer-friendly.  (Do you understand the ethic behind this web forum?)


I suspect what he meant was that while talking to the customer he would not advise them to rescind, and that doing so while representing Wyndham would not be on the up and up when he was being paid by Wyndham to sell product.

Surely he didn’t mean the act of rescinding itself is somehow unethical.

That said, I am amused at the defense of retail purchases in the face of reality.  If I were selling anything and wanted to feel good about myself I would have to look for the positives as well.   There are positives of buying retail, just that most of us think they aren’t as strong as as the positives of resale. But if I were selling timeshares I think my brain would probably give undue weight to retail positives.


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## paxsarah (Jul 2, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> I would never tell anyone to rescind a purchase. 1) Its unethical 2) It could be construed as Tortuous Interference and 3) As long as you feel it was a good deal, then go for it.



For #1 and #2, do you mean in your role as a salesperson several years ago, or in your current role as an independent party? I can certainly see how a salesperson would not want to advise rescinding for those reasons, but I fail to see how either of them apply to an independent person.


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## ddavid1073 (Jul 2, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> There are ALOT of jobs that are full commission only. Not sure timeshare sales. I do not think that a commission only jobs causes people to lie because of pressure. I think bad people lie because most of the time they can get away with it.


Hi - Thanks for replying - I'm not sure, based on your answer, that I'm getting the information I'm looking for.

As a Wyndham Sales person did you receive a straight salary plus a commission or was it a commission only job or was your salary based on your sales?

My point is not that anyone "lies" to make sales but says things that could be true in the rarest instance (i.e. "If you use our credit card to pay your maintenance and other things, your maintenance will be free!", but in fact you'd need to spend 40K a month and pay it back monthly to garner the cash back to offset your maintenance fee. True but not realistic).

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my and everyone's questions.


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## ronparise (Jul 2, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> Ron, you do like to take things out of context huh?
> 
> I never said anything about illegal payments to anyone. I said that some of the maint fee is going to Wyndham. Thats not illegal and they are not hiding it. They show it as "XXXXX Fee". My statement was where is that money accounted for?




Not out of contex at all. The context was the discussion of CWA I made the point that when Marc Grey was president of the CWA hoa and Peter Hernandez the treasurer the CWA Trust was “managed” to keep maintenance fees below average. Put in simple terms that even a salesman can understand:* for every high mf contract added to the trust, a low mf contract was added for balance.  I added that what they told me could have been a lie, but my own accounts backed them up in my accounts (I owned in excess of 200 contracts) my average mf was greater than the CWA mf

So you took issue with that and said this. 

“And a maintenance fee being managed? I dont call over $5.00 being managed. I call it, someone is fueling their jet with the profits.” 

I read this as an accusation, specifically Wyndham was manipulating mf to provide them with greater profit than they would have had if they had played it straight 

The manager is required by law to manage the club to the benefit of the club members. I’m no lawyer, but I’m pretty sure to do otherwise is not legal 


That’s the context as I read it:  CWA maintenance fees. And you were pretty clear, that if mf is over $5 Wyndham must be managing this thing to “Fuel their jets”   I dont think they are doing that and If they were I think it would be illegal. So to my way of thinking you have accuses Wyndham of doing something illegal


* full disclosure: I have been a salesman for more than 60 years, either buying and selling for my own account or on commission


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## ronparise (Jul 2, 2018)

Lisa P said:


> UNETHICAL to rescind???    "construed as Tortuous Interference"???    Are you kidding!?!!?  "Cool off" rescission laws came about because of unethical, pressure cooker tactics and deceptive timeshare salespeople preying on vulnerable newbies and senior citizens.  These consumer protection laws exist for real estate, vehicle, timeshare, and many other large $ purchases for good REASON.    Get real.  These comments suggest you are not TUG-savvy nor consumer-friendly.  (Do you understand the ethic behind this web forum?)


 

He didn’t say it would be unethical to rescind. What he said is that it would be unethical to advise someone to rescind and advising someone to rescind could be “Tortuous Interference"

And I agree, 

However answering someone’s questions and providing the benefit of our experience is something different. 

 Folks come to TUG asking “should I rescind”. . Answering  that question and backing up the answer with personal knowledge and ones experience isn’t unethetical.  At least that’s my opinion


----------



## ronparise (Jul 2, 2018)

ddavid1073 said:


> Hi,
> Could you verify for me that Wyndham Sales People are paid through "commission only"?  If that's true, I'd say that puts a lot of pressure on them to either make sales or not be able to support themselves.
> 
> I would think that is where a lot of their sales pressure and inaccurate statements come from.
> ...




You are right that most commissioned salespeople are under great pressure to sell. But pressure to sell is my the issue. Most commissioned sales people find a company and a product that they believe in and that even with the commission the product is a good value

With timeshares, as you point out, we have a great product, it’s just way over priced.so the value isn’t there Of course the salesman are under pressure to sell as because the value isn’t there. They lie or hide the truth or twist the facts 

The product should sell itself.  But it dosent. So they lie


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## bogey21 (Jul 2, 2018)

ronparise said:


> He didn’t say it would be unethical to rescind. What he said is that it would be unethical to advise someone to rescind and advising someone to rescind could be “Tortuous Interference"...



I agree as it relates to an ex-employee...

George


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## Eric B (Jul 2, 2018)

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/tortious+interference provides a definition of tortious interference with a contract.  I don't think telling someone that has signed a timeshare contract with a developer that they could get a better deal elsewhere would meet that definition.  The bottom line is that even advise to someone to rescind such a contract, when it is within their legal right to do so, isn't encouraging a breach of the contract.

Advising someone to just stop paying would be different, as would transferring a title to an entity that is not intended to pay the MFs (i.e., a Viking Ship).  Telling someone what or how limited the consequences of such actions would or could be is safer, in my opinion.  The latter, and advising rescission, are things I've seen in TUG and am comfortable with.  Declining to give advice because it might be tortious interference sounds more like a chastisement of TUG than an ethical position to me.

Not intended as legal advice, of course.  Just my reaction to what I've read in this thread.


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## silentg (Jul 2, 2018)

sparty said:


> Maybe there was a missing "," but the only Apple Valley I know was in your area Dioxide45 and I thought it went out of business, blamed on owners throwing the developers out as mgmt company.


Apple Valley is in Clarksville, GA it is a HIVC Resort.


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## pedro47 (Jul 2, 2018)

To the OP, would you purchase a timeshare in a 90 minutes presentation while on vacation?


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## silentg (Jul 2, 2018)

I have a question?
Visited with my Aunt yesterday and she told me she owns two weeks at the Palms in Kissimmee. She previously owned at Wyndham Pompano. Claims they offered her two weeks in exchange for her one Pompano. She told me the maintenance is very high at Palms. She regrets making this deal. I’m not sure when she did this. Do you have any info on this kind of deal?
She wasn’t too clear on the details.
From what she told me, sounds like she was taken advantage of because she is elderly.
Silentg


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## Jan M. (Jul 2, 2018)

silentg said:


> I have a question?
> Visited with my Aunt yesterday and she told me she owns two weeks at the Palms in Kissimmee. She previously owned at Wyndham Pompano. Claims they offered her two weeks in exchange for her one Pompano. She told me the maintenance is very high at Palms. She regrets making this deal. I’m not sure when she did this. Do you have any info on this kind of deal?
> She wasn’t too clear on the details.
> From what she told me, sounds like she was taken advantage of because she is elderly.
> Silentg



She now has two weeks instead of one week so I would guess the maintenance fees doubled or close to it. Did she want two weeks or to get out of owing at the resort in Pompano because of the hurricane? How much did it cost her to buy more points to have enough for two weeks? I'm guessing at least $12-$18k and maybe even more than that. One of the papers she signed stated what the new maintenance fees would be. Does she have a husband or did she go the update by herself?

We met at the get together in January and if I remember correctly you are a few years younger than I am. That would likely make your aunt mid to later 70's or older? The information I read online about elder abuse said that 60 and over is considered elderly. Yeah that was a slap in the face, lol. If she feels she ended up with something she didn't want because the salesperson fast talked her it might be worth a phone call to Wyndham owner care and their legal department with both of you on the line to discuss this.


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## wjappraise (Jul 2, 2018)

ronparise said:


> I read this as an accusation, specifically Wyndham was manipulating mf to provide them with greater profit than they would have had if they had played it straight
> 
> The manager is required by law to manage the club to the benefit of the club members. I’m no lawyer, but I’m pretty sure to do otherwise is not legal
> 
> ...



Ron, maybe I am oversimplifying it, but I see it that maintenance fees do include several rather vague lines that are pure profit and likely used to "fuel the jets" of the corporate players and over-compensated board members.  Such things as "Management Fees", "Association Fees", "General & Administrative", "Operating Capital", "Other Expenses", and others are certainly ones that are legally siphoning monies to Wyndham.  Just looking at one of recent association fee breakdowns, those line items combined for about 25% of the stated expenses.  And they represent more than total maintenance costs, more than guest services, more than housekeeping, more than all utilities combined, and more that replacement reserves.  All in all . . . a lot of something, maybe it is jet fuel.  

It does seem more gamesmanship than real world accounting that CWA started with MFs markedly lower than many popular resorts, but is now higher than most, with the exception of the Pompano Beach resorts.


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## ddavid1073 (Jul 2, 2018)

Hi
Did you have a base salary when you worked for Wyndham?


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## silentg (Jul 2, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> She now has two weeks instead of one week so I would guess the maintenance fees doubled or close to it. Did she want two weeks or to get out of owing at the resort in Pompano because of the hurricane? How much did it cost her to buy more points to have enough for two weeks? I'm guessing at least $12-$18k and maybe even more than that. One of the papers she signed stated what the new maintenance fees would be. Does she have a husband or did she go the update by herself?
> 
> We met at the get together in January and if I remember correctly you are a few years younger than I am. That would likely make your aunt mid to later 70's or older? The information I read online about elder abuse said that 60 and over is considered elderly. Yeah that was a slap in the face, lol. If she feels she ended up with something she didn't want because the salesperson fast talked her it might be worth a phone call to Wyndham owner care and their legal department with both of you on the line to discuss this.


Yes my aunt is in her early 80’s very independent .She feels like she got a bad deal, but other than complain to me, I don’t know what she will do. She is using her weeks to exchange within Wyndham.
She still likes to go to Pompano, but she does short stays there.
My family asks for advice from me but then they do what they want. They all think we own too many timeshares. But we use them all and don’t have any that have extremely high fees.
I’m thinking that she might contact Wyndham and ask them to take back the weeks.
I don’t know what she paid or what the deal was to get her to give up her Pompano one. She lives in Florida so not because of hurricanes. Didn’t make sense to me, since she doesn’t like Kissimmee or Orlando area.
Thanks for the advice Jan. I don’t know that much about Wyndham. Just know I don’t want anymore timeshares.
Silentg


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## Lisa P (Jul 2, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> OP,
> We just signed a WCA deal for 126k annual points at $145/1000 points for under 20k all in.  MFs are around 800/year.  Got some bonus points and VIP Silver through 2020 and a couple RCI free weeks thrown in.  Good deal or should we rescind based upon your experience as a former WCA sales rep?





ExSalesman2018 said:


> I would never tell anyone to rescind a purchase. 1) Its unethical 2) It could be construed as Tortuous Interference and 3) As long as you feel it was a good deal, then go for it.





Railman83 said:


> I suspect what he meant was that while talking to the customer he would not advise them to rescind, and that doing so while representing Wyndham would not be on the up and up when he was being paid by Wyndham to sell product.
> Surely he didn’t mean the act of rescinding itself is somehow unethical.





ronparise said:


> He didn’t say it would be unethical to rescind. What he said is that it would be unethical to advise someone to rescind and advising someone to rescind could be “Tortuous Interference"
> And I agree...





bogey21 said:


> I agree as it relates to an ex-employee...


  The OP did not seek an opportunity to drive away business from his past employer.  He was asked for an opinion based on his knowledge of the system and sales industry.    I see your point and it's good to grant the benefit over the doubt.... that posted reply just didn't (and honestly still doesn't) read that way to me.


pedro47 said:


> To the OP, would you purchase a timeshare in a 90 minutes presentation while on vacation?


----------



## ronparise (Jul 2, 2018)

wjappraise said:


> Ron, maybe I am oversimplifying it, but I see it that maintenance fees do include several rather vague lines that are pure profit and likely used to "fuel the jets" of the corporate players and over-compensated board members.  Such things as "Management Fees", "Association Fees", "General & Administrative", "Operating Capital", "Other Expenses", and others are certainly ones that are legally siphoning monies to Wyndham.  Just looking at one of recent association fee breakdowns, those line items combined for about 25% of the stated expenses.  And they represent more than total maintenance costs, more than guest services, more than housekeeping, more than all utilities combined, and more that replacement reserves.  All in all . . . a lot of something, maybe it is jet fuel.
> 
> It does seem more gamesmanship than real world accounting that CWA started with MFs markedly lower than many popular resorts, but is now higher than most, with the exception of the Pompano Beach resorts.


That’s not what we were talking about

Understand that CWA is comprised of a collection of deeds from most all the resorts and the CWA mf is essentially a weighted average of all those deeds. Yes there are management fees assessed at multiple levels 1) every resort is managed 2) the club (CWA) is managed and 3) CWA is part of Club Wyndham plus and Club Wyndham plus is managed   
And every owner of a CWA contract pays all those fees

But none of that is new, all those management fees have been part of CWA from the beginning


I was responding to just two things  one was the former salesman’s claim that “anything over $5 was fueling wyndhams jets” or some such thing

I don’t think that’s true.  

And two is the general belief that CWA fees have been higher than average since the beginning because CWA was the dumping ground for all the junk that couldn’t be sold.  

Second thing first.  CWA fees weren’t higher than average since the beginning I know that because I owned a lot of deeds from all over the system and I believe my average mf  represented pretty much the average across the system.  And CWA was less 

And to my first point 

I think most of the recent increase is due to increases at the individual resorts that are in CWA and due to more high mf  deeds than low mf deeds being added recently. 

And a personal note.  When I was selling deeds back to Wyndham they usually wouldn’t buy CWA and they would never buy converted weeks.  But when they took out all the mega renters they took everything including the fixed fixed weeks (converted and unconverted) and speaking only for myself, a lot of what they got from me was high mf stuff)

So I’m not saying wyndham dosent overcharge us. What I’m saying is the increased mf we have seen recently in CWA is not due to increased management fees.  Looking at the big picture management fees are small potatoes. 

At least that’s my opinion and it’s based on experience owning this stuff, not selling it


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## Cateacher (Jul 3, 2018)

Quick question. If I haven’t signed my actual contract is there anything I need to worry about in terms of rescinding?  I did fill out several applications etc but they are eager to get me in to sign the contract. I assume not, but wanted to make sure my bases are covered.


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## Cyrus24 (Jul 3, 2018)

Did you actually meet with the QC person?  This person brings all the papers in and records the conversation as you do final signatures.  Since you are questioning what you actually filled out, you may need to go back to the sales office and retrieve the forms/applications that you completed.


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## Cateacher (Jul 3, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> Did you actually meet with the QC person?  This person brings all the papers in and records the conversation as you do final signatures.  Since you are questioning what you actually filled out, you may need to go back to the sales office and retrieve the forms/applications that you completed.


No, we never met in the “quiet room” and recorded conversations. We only sat at salespersons table and filled out applications.


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## Cyrus24 (Jul 3, 2018)

You are probably not contractually obligated to anything, then.  If you do go back, be firm , you don't want to buy on this trip.  Do try to retrieve the applications that you filled out.  Be thankful that the printer was down, you may have saved yourself a LOT of aggravation and stress.  And, have this web page on your phone just in case you need a quick perspective on something that they say.  There are many TUGGERS willing to help you!!!!


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## Cateacher (Jul 3, 2018)

Cyrus24 said:


> You are probably not contractually obligated to anything, then.  If you do go back, be firm , you don't want to buy on this trip.  Do try to retrieve the applications that you filled out.  Be thankful that the printer was down, you may have saved yourself a LOT of aggravation and stress.  And, have this web page on your phone just in case you need a quick perspective on something that they say.  There are many TUGGERS willing to help you!!!!



Thanks for talking me down from the ledge everyone.  Is there a thread or link that explains how to go about safely buying from the resale market?


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## Cyrus24 (Jul 3, 2018)

Cateacher said:


> Is there a thread or link that explains how to go about safely buying from the resale market?


That's a big request, not sure that it's in one simple post.  Do look at the link I shared on your other post as it addresses a lot of topics about buying from developer versus resale, VIP, PICs, etc.  For now, enjoy your time in Vegas.  When you get home just start reading the various posts, you will learn a lot about the various aspects of ownership.  

Glad you are off the ledge.


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## wjappraise (Jul 3, 2018)

ronparise said:


> I was responding to just two things  one was the former salesman’s claim that “anything over $5 was fueling wyndhams jets” or some such thing
> 
> I don’t think that’s true.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Ron.

I agree CWA fees were very competitive at first.  Not sure that liquidating even some big players (weren't there only about 100 of us in the suspended category) would be enough to explain the LARGE (not shouting, just highlighting) increase in MFs for the economy of scale that CWA would represent.  I am wondering if it started low due to some subsidies or other incentives.  Either way, the prices now are unreasonable when compared to other resorts.

I also think the prior salesman was speaking with some degree of "tongue in cheek," noting that Wyndham does profit quite nicely from our MFs, without charging fraud against Wyndham (especially given his reluctance to tell someone to rescind a new contract purchase).  Those management fees and the like are quite bloated, especially when you factor in that the program fees are not included in those calculations.

Of course, those bloated fees are across the board for Wyndham properties, not just CWA.

Good to have you back on the blog with regularity.


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## harveyhaddixfan (Jul 3, 2018)

wjappraise said:


> Of course, those bloated fees are across the board for Wyndham properties, not just CWA.



It’s not just Wyndham either. My resort in NC was previously independent, bought by Gold Key out of Virginia Beach and later sold to Diamond. Since Diamond took over, the management fee went from about $250k to $569k this year. They also added a line item called “indirect corporate costs” (previously called corporate overhead allocation) for another $581k. That’s an extra $900k for 4386 intervals or about $205 a week. The total revenue is listed as $6.4 million. It’s ridiculous how DRI was able to “buy” the resort and now can call all the shots since they picked up a few thousand intervals with the purchase and have taken back many more.


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## ronparise (Jul 3, 2018)

Cateacher said:


> Thanks for talking me down from the ledge everyone.  Is there a thread or link that explains how to go about safely buying from the resale market?



In 2010 I went to bonnet creek as the guest of an owner, I thought. In fact I was her ticket to a free weekend. We both had to attend a sales presentation

My wife really liked the place (bonnet creek)and we signed on we quickly realized that the $12000 we committed to bought nearly nothing and we rescinded

But as I said we really liked the resort.  So I set out to find the secondary market. I found it on eBay.  My first purchase was 3 converted fixed weeks totaling 375000 points. For $1 plus about $250 closing costs per contract and about $2000 annual maintenance fees

Since then I have purchased well over 200 contracts on the secondary market  and sold  them all


I mention all this simply to establish credibility. I’m trying to make the point that I could write the book on buying Wyndham contracts on the aecondary market

And here it is:

1) determine your needs
2) go to ebay.com
3) bid
4) pay
5) wait for the deal to settle
6) repeat as often as necessary to reach your goal

And  this is the hard part; before you buy, know the product and know your seller 

I didn’t have the benefit of those “rules” before I bought.  I knew nothing. I hadn’t even found tug before my first purchase. But it all worked out just fine. This isn’t rocket science


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 3, 2018)

ronparise said:


> In 2010 I went to bonnet creek as the guest of an owner, I thought. In fact I was her ticket to a free weekend. We both had to attend a sales presentation
> 
> My wife really liked the place (bonnet creek)and we signed on we quickly realized that the $12000 we committed to bought nearly nothing and we rescinded
> 
> ...



Curious about the background on why anyone would engage in buying and selling such a large number of contracts?  Over what period of time did you perform these activities?  I’m sure there are very good reasons but as a relative TS newbie I’m trying to understand the business case.  I also saw reference to “large renters” and how the changes to the VIP programs and the mass suspensions were aimed at these large TS owners.  Were people actually trying to buy up large blocks of contracts to somehow corner the TS market and then rent out their TS’s as some kind of business model?  Did this actually work?  It sounds as if a small subset of large TS owners were actually able to turn TS ownership into some kind of viable business model?  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Adventureisoutthere (Jul 3, 2018)

ronparise said:


> In 2010 I went to bonnet creek as the guest of an owner, I thought. In fact I was her ticket to a free weekend. We both had to attend a sales presentation
> 
> My wife really liked the place (bonnet creek)and we signed on we quickly realized that the $12000 we committed to bought nearly nothing and we rescinded
> 
> ...



How do we get to know a seller on eBay?  I have a list of questions I ask before bidding, but I haven’t received great responses to my questions which deters my bid.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ronparise (Jul 3, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Curious about the background on why anyone would engage in buying and selling such a large number of contracts?  Over what period of time did you perform these activities?  I’m sure there are very good reasons but as a relative TS newbie I’m trying to understand the business case.  I also saw reference to “large renters” and how the changes to the VIP programs and the mass suspensions were aimed at these large TS owners.  Were people actually trying to buy up large blocks of contracts to somehow corner the TS market and then rent out their TS’s as some kind of business model?  Did this actually work?  It sounds as if a small subset of large TS owners were actually able to turn TS ownership into some kind of viable business model?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




My story is well known here on TUG.  From 2010 -2016 I grew from 325000 points That I won on ebay with a $1 bid to over 30 million  I started with the goal of doing enough rentals each year so that the rental income would pay all my maintenance fees with enough points left over for a week or so for me..

That worked and I set a new goal to make $2000 a month profit.. That worked and I kept growing.

You ask about the business case> I never claimed to have a business... I had a hustle and I always knew that it wouldnt last forever

What I (and others) did cant be done anymore because Wyndham closed the loopholes we used to make cheap VIP accounts, to get discounts on reservations made 10-13 months in advance, and to use 3 years of points while paying less than a years mf.


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## Jan M. (Jul 3, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Curious about the background on why anyone would engage in buying and selling such a large number of contracts?  Over what period of time did you perform these activities?  I’m sure there are very good reasons but as a relative TS newbie I’m trying to understand the business case.  I also saw reference to “large renters” and how the changes to the VIP programs and the mass suspensions were aimed at these large TS owners.  Were people actually trying to buy up large blocks of contracts to somehow corner the TS market and then rent out their TS’s as some kind of business model?  Did this actually work?  It sounds as if a small subset of large TS owners were actually able to turn TS ownership into some kind of viable business model?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Pretty much none of what Ron did is relevant to you. What is relevant is his experience in buying and the criteria he used in making his decisions about what he bought. You would have to go back to threads starting after August 2016 to understand his history. If you have the time it is interesting reading. Ron bought, sold, bought more and sold more to the tune of something like 30 million points a year for several years. He ended up in negotiations for a settlement with Wyndham which resulted in him no longer being a Wyndham owner. He and others doing the same thing resulted in Wyndham making changes to prevent what they had done from happening in the future.

To save you a great deal of time reading back through all those threads and the posts on them here is a quick summation. For the most part Ron business plan was to buy a large volume of points, some he didn't care quite as much about the price as the location and some the cheap price what was he was looking for. He had a great rental business going at the New Orleans properties.The people who had profitable rental businesses were referred to as megarenters. Ron stripped the deeds and contracts he bought of three years points only paying maintenance fees for the current year, no longer possible btw, used some points to make his rental reservations and had point managers who paid him for the huge amounts of points he wasn't using. The points managers then made reservations with those points and rented stays to make their money. After a second year of credit pooling the next available year's points, using some of them for them his own rentals and getting paid by the point managers for the rest of them, he then sold off the stripped deeds and contracts that had no points in them for the next several years. Wyndham did away with the credit pool and took back those stripped contracts and deeds.  Not sure if any of those point manager survived the purge either.

Between the new Wyndham website in May, 2017 with the changes it brought and the changes to the VIP benefits in April, 2017 most of us have been impacted to some degree and most negatively. Those changes made it much harder for many owners who did quite a bit of renting to get the reservations they were used to getting and make the money they once did. When the new website was launched it was because the Wyndham powers that be didn't listen to their IT people, hit the panic button and forced the roll out of the new website prematurely. The result was quite honestly a p.o.s. website that they have been working hard to fix and still needs work.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Jul 3, 2018)

- "and that's it in a nutshell " 

as one of my grandmother's friends would say after a 10 minute complicated story .

*******
Actually - that is a very good summary of well over 1000 posts in the August 2016 start date- " Account Suspended .... thread . 
- which I did read regularly through it's many twists & turns .

Thank you Jan


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 3, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> - "and that's it in a nutshell "
> 
> as one of my grandmother's friends would say after a 10 minute complicated story .
> 
> ...



Yes thanks very much for the summation!  Interesting information to say the least.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 3, 2018)

I have several friends and such that still work at Wyndham, some sales reps, some directors of sales and some site and area VP's. I cannot bad mouth Wyndham, as 1) I have no reason too 2) I have respect for my colleagues that still work there.. 

Ron that is a very interesting story. We used to sell ALOT of alternate use years at my site. Anyone with 1,000,000 points or more, it was an easy sell, because it allowed to perpetual points rolling without RCI and the PCP. Wyndham also closed that loophole. I had to call ALL of my owners that I sold that to and tell them it was not going to work anymore. So if anyone is wondering why their use years all went to the same time, its because of that "Glitch" in the system. 

But its like everything else. There are reasons certain programs are rolled out. The product developers at Wyndham are brilliant people. They are very nice and such as well. They spend their time brainstorming on whats next. 

Its like the "In-Unit" Visits where the sales person came to your room, then that didnt work anymore they went to " Owner Workshops" so whats next? Who knows, but they dont last forever. Something new will come.. I just hope for its the benefits of the owners. Wyndhams biggest business issue is brow beating their owners OVER and OVER and OVER. It looks like they have taken some good steps recently with ovations and the old Pathways program.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 3, 2018)

ddavid1073 said:


> Hi
> Did you have a base salary when you worked for Wyndham?


It was a draw, enough to cover benefits, and when you had commission that draw was taken back.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 3, 2018)

pedro47 said:


> To the OP, would you purchase a timeshare in a 90 minutes presentation while on vacation?



Depends.. Thats a loaded question on this forum hahahaha. and a loaded questions because I have been in the industry for a decade. 

Knowing everything I know... No

But I can see why millions do it every year... We called it the "Ether" Thats why Orlando, Hawaii, and Las Vegas are the top timeshare productions sites in the world. Your in Hawaii with your wife, everythings beautiful, you want to come back every year, because its an emotional buy at that point. 

Vegas- Money flows so freely in Vegas, I truly believe the science behind Vegas Sales is the mindset MOST people have in Vegas, because of all the Gambling, expensive stuff flashing all around. They want to feel apart of that "flashy entourage"

Orlando- 1 word- Disney. It sells it self.


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 3, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> But I can see why millions do it every year... We called it the "Ether" Thats why Orlando, Hawaii, and Las Vegas are the top timeshare productions sites in the world. Your in Hawaii with your wife, everythings beautiful, you want to come back every year, because its an emotional buy at that point.



I think you just hit on the crux of the problem with timeshare sales tactics especially, and to a lesser extent on any sales model that is designed to manipulate people to encourage emotional vs factual decision making.

To me, ANY sales model that encourages anyone to make major life decisions that have a major financial impact within a period of hours is by definition designed to intentionally manipulate people.  My wife fell for it last week and we ended up rescinding.  The fact that Wyndham intentionally requires both husband and wife (or SO) is by design NOT because they necessarily want both decision makers - it’s really because it doubles their chances of a sale if one of the two people involved let’s their emotions get the best of them.  We all want to please our spouses and therefore we are less likely to resist our spouse in the moment.  This approach, at its core, is fundamentally dishonest in my view.  

Thankfully, the internet and social media have largely become the great equalizers in minimizing and preventing these types of sales practices from proliferating further.  Car sales tactics the old fashioned way are a dying breed thanks to the power of technology.  I for one will celebrate the day when the aggressive and manipulative sales practices used by timeshare companies becomes a thing of the past.  We are now armed with tons of information literally at our fingertips to help us avoid making impulsive decisions.  

While I’m no sales person, I’m trained and certified in the pragmatic market framework and  therefore understand how to design and implement sales models using various buyer and seller personas.  When I was sitting with our 19 year old sales associate who was brand new at Wyndham, I coached her on all of this while we were waiting for her boss.  On how her role was to act as an advocate for the customer and that she intentionally did not handle any of the financials and negotiations because that’s a different persona by design.  Her persona was to gain the trust of the customer and build a relationship to attempt to get customers to let their guard down.  It’s all very intentional and very much by design how they sell.  It’s very systematic.  That much I know for certain.  




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 4, 2018)

Sales are always going to be based on emotion and logic.. Theres nothing wrong with selling emotions. I know this site is particularly negative when it comes to timeshare sells by the resort. But not all sales that happen are bad things. 

Front line sales - new owner acquisitions are done with emotion and logic.

Inhouse sales are mostly done on logic. Just like moving PR to PR by buying 105k points. If you could drop your maint 100+ a month and have more PR points, why would you not? The maint is what is long term. Any position to reduce that cost should be beneficial....


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## ronparise (Jul 4, 2018)

Jan M. said:


> Pretty much none of what Ron did is relevant to you. What is relevant is his experience in buying and the criteria he used in making his decisions about what he bought. You would have to go back to threads starting after August 2016 to understand his history. If you have the time it is interesting reading. Ron bought, sold, bought more and sold more to the tune of something like 30 million points a year for several years. He ended up in negotiations for a settlement with Wyndham which resulted in him no longer being a Wyndham owner. He and others doing the same thing resulted in Wyndham making changes to prevent what they had done from happening in the future.
> 
> To save you a great deal of time reading back through all those threads and the posts on them here is a quick summation. For the most part Ron business plan was to buy a large volume of points cheap. He had a great rental business going at the New Orleans properties.The people who had profitable rental businesses were referred to as megarenters. Ron stripped the deeds and contracts he bought of three years points only paying maintenance fees for the current year, no longer possible btw, used some points to make his rental reservations and had point managers who paid him for the huge amounts of points he wasn't using. The points managers then made reservations with those points and rented stays to make their money. After a second year of credit pooling the next available year's points, using some of them for them his own rentals and getting paid by the point managers for the rest of them, he then sold off the stripped deeds and contracts that had no points in them for the next several years. Wyndham did away with the credit pool and took back those stripped contracts and deeds.  Not sure if any of those point manager survived the purge either.
> 
> Between the new Wyndham website in May, 2017 with the changes it brought and the changes to the VIP benefits in April, 2017 most of us have been impacted to some degree and most negatively. Those changes made it much harder for many owners who did quite a bit of renting to get the reservations they were used to getting and make the money they once did. When the new website was launched it was because the Wyndham powers that be didn't listen to their IT people, hit the panic button and forced the roll out of the new website prematurely. The result was quite honestly a p.o.s. website that they have been working hard to fix and still needs work.



This is a pretty good summation of the last few years


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## ronparise (Jul 4, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> It was a draw, enough to cover benefits, and when you had commission that draw was taken back.



That’s how things worked at Dean Witter, when I was a stock broker.

 For those that don’t know the draw is against commission. My draw was $500 and was paid on the 15th.  My commissions, less that draw, were paid on the 30th

So we stockbrokers and the Wyndham salesmen weee paid on a straight commission basis


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## ronparise (Jul 4, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> I have several friends and such that still work at Wyndham, some sales reps, some directors of sales and some site and area VP's. I cannot bad mouth Wyndham, as 1) I have no reason too 2) I have respect for my colleagues that still work there..
> 
> Ron that is a very interesting story. We used to sell ALOT of alternate use years at my site. Anyone with 1,000,000 points or more, it was an easy sell, because it allowed to perpetual points rolling without RCI and the PCP. Wyndham also closed that loophole. I had to call ALL of my owners that I sold that to and tell them it was not going to work anymore. So if anyone is wondering why their use years all went to the same time, its because of that "Glitch" in the system.
> 
> ...




The guy that managed my points rolled them in that way. And to help him I always made sure I had contracts in every use year.  My problem was just the opposite.  Most of my points were used in the first 6 months of the year.  I  never had enough points I seldom cancelled anything so I had no need to roll them forward.
To the contrary I was, in the words of the attorney that took me out, a points puller


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 6, 2018)

It was a great, for lack of a better word, exploitation of the system, but that is now closed unfortunately, I do not know what the new Wyndham pitch is these days, I'm on to other industry related things, RCI Points which I really like because of the lower maint. cost etc. But thats neither here nor there. 

What is the new pitch these days?


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 6, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I think you just hit on the crux of the problem with timeshare sales tactics especially, and to a lesser extent on any sales model that is designed to manipulate people to encourage emotional vs factual decision making.
> 
> To me, ANY sales model that encourages anyone to make major life decisions that have a major financial impact within a period of hours is by definition designed to intentionally manipulate people.  My wife fell for it last week and we ended up rescinding.  The fact that Wyndham intentionally requires both husband and wife (or SO) is by design NOT because they necessarily want both decision makers - it’s really because it doubles their chances of a sale if one of the two people involved let’s their emotions get the best of them.  We all want to please our spouses and therefore we are less likely to resist our spouse in the moment.  This approach, at its core, is fundamentally dishonest in my view.
> 
> ...



You can be sure its a systematic approach. The only thing I disagree with is the first paragraph about the husband and wife. They both have to be there because, as we in the industry call them, 1 leggers, they rescission rate is extremely high. "Hey Honey, I just spent 25k without you and bought somemore points"


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## ronparise (Jul 6, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> It was a great, for lack of a better word, exploitation of the system, but that is now closed unfortunately, I do not know what the new Wyndham pitch is these days, I'm on to other industry related things, RCI Points which I really like because of the lower maint. cost etc. But thats neither here nor there.
> 
> What is the new pitch these days?




RCI points are here and there

Ive heard of places that sell "pure points"  Thats impossible of course as we know RCI points are connected to specific ownerships. Can you tell us, specifically, whats being sold when you sell RCI points, and is it done with the blessing of RCI itself


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## Lisa P (Jul 6, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> I'm on to other industry related things, RCI Points which I really like because of the lower maint. cost etc.


Some people with RCI Points report very good value on maintenance fees and others, not so much.  Most reports around here center around resale purchases.  Could you share about developer packages in RCI Points with "lower maint cost" that you consider a good value _when compared_ with their resale alternatives?  Which developers?


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 16, 2018)

ronparise said:


> RCI points are here and there
> 
> Ive heard of places that sell "pure points"  Thats impossible of course as we know RCI points are connected to specific ownerships. Can you tell us, specifically, whats being sold when you sell RCI points, and is it done with the blessing of RCI itself



So RCI points are basically a deeded week (and in our case) the week is retained by the developer and its automatically enrolled into RCI points each year. The RCI Points are deposited into the RCI account of the owner. The upside to this is we allow our owners to walk away after 6 years. RCI Points are sanctioned by RCI because to get RCI points for the week, the resort has to be a member of RCI and has to accept the points across the exchange system.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 16, 2018)

ronparise said:


> RCI points are here and there
> 
> Ive heard of places that sell "pure points"  Thats impossible of course as we know RCI points are connected to specific ownerships. Can you tell us, specifically, whats being sold when you sell RCI points, and is it done with the blessing of RCI itself



Pure points, I am still not sure how they are legit. Basically from my understanding is, the owner buys 10,000 points and then can rent up to 500k through the resort. I have heard mixed reviews on how RCI feels about this. One side says RCI knows and is ok with it, the other side said its a SCAM. So who really know. The problem is with RCI points, you need atleast 60k to get a decent week somewhere and to rent 50k points at .03 a point, your paying $1500 dollars. With real RCI points you could have 150,000 and get more than that 1 week.

Pure Points in MY opinion is garbage. Its a sleezy sales technique that someone found while exploiting the system.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 16, 2018)

Lisa P said:


> Some people with RCI Points report very good value on maintenance fees and others, not so much.  Most reports around here center around resale purchases.  Could you share about developer packages in RCI Points with "lower maint cost" that you consider a good value _when compared_ with their resale alternatives?  Which developers?



When it comes to RCI points, my main focus would be maint cost. because all points really are points in RCI. It doesn't matter if you have a 3bdrm in Hawaii that is converted to points, or a studio in branson. What matters is how many points its worth and the maint on those points. The ones I sell and have sold are .01 per point. So 105,000 RCI points is $1050 a year. If you really know how to use the system you can get some good value with that. The big pitch out and about is you can get anything you want for 10k points. Thats not true. NOW you can get weeks for 10k points and less. BUT you have to be able to go last minute and its hit or miss on whats there to book. Ive seen Hawaii for 7500 points. Its a rare occasion but it does happen. 

In my opinion, you need a minimum of 60k points to really get a good look at whats available.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 16, 2018)

Lisa P said:


> Some people with RCI Points report very good value on maintenance fees and others, not so much.  Most reports around here center around resale purchases.  Could you share about developer packages in RCI Points with "lower maint cost" that you consider a good value _when compared_ with their resale alternatives?  Which developers?



Just FYI, 

There are no good resale values when it comes to RCI Points. They can be had for pennies just like everything else. If you can find a good maint fee and a good amount of points, then by all means.. Get it!!


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 16, 2018)

ronparise said:


> RCI points are here and there
> 
> Ive heard of places that sell "pure points"  Thats impossible of course as we know RCI points are connected to specific ownerships. Can you tell us, specifically, whats being sold when you sell RCI points, and is it done with the blessing of RCI itself



I would even go as far as to say, its a right to use product instead of an actual "Ownership"


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Jul 16, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> So RCI points are basically a deeded week (and in our case) the week is retained by the developer and its automatically enrolled into RCI points each year. The RCI Points are deposited into the RCI account of the owner. The upside to this is we allow our owners to walk away after 6 years. .



So resort xx has weeks converted to RCI points / you find buyers ( ie : long term renters who sign a " term lease " )

The 6 year RTU( minimum ) cycle gives both parties a level of certainty .
 For the buyer: who wants (say) Myrtle Beach in the summer - this allows them to plan & book 12 + months out .
For the resort with developer weeks - mud to prime / you take care of repackaging into 60 K (or better ) of point packages .

*********
...... If you can find a good maint fee and a good amount of points, then by all means.. Get it!![/QUOTE]
*********

I assume the -" by all means .. Get it ! " is aimed at TUG members who have experience .

Away we Go / Alan Cole - once posted that ,when he first bought Vac. Village Parkway in RCI points on ebay / he did not know that there were different points values
for the same MF  He bought a lower point week  for pennies on ebay . Later he sold it for pennies and paid a bit more to get the 92,500 point contract .

Your program makes sense for someone who is not ready to go through that learning curve /  and just wants some nice family vacations
without a " forever commitment .


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## tschwa2 (Jul 16, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> When it comes to RCI points, my main focus would be maint cost. because all points really are points in RCI. It doesn't matter if you have a 3bdrm in Hawaii that is converted to points, or a studio in branson. What matters is how many points its worth and the maint on those points. The ones I sell and have sold are .01 per point. So 105,000 RCI points is $1050 a year. If you really know how to use the system you can get some good value with that. The big pitch out and about is you can get anything you want for 10k points. Thats not true. NOW you can get weeks for 10k points and less. BUT you have to be able to go last minute and its hit or miss on whats there to book. Ive seen Hawaii for 7500 points. Its a rare occasion but it does happen.
> 
> In my opinion, you need a minimum of 60k points to really get a good look at whats available.



The problem I have with RCI points and RCI in general is the ever increasing fees associated with exchanges, membership fees, and guest certificates.  Add the fact that more and more resorts are adding resort fees on top of everything else some of which specifically only apply to RCI and II exchanges make RCI points less and less attractive even if your points are at or under a penny per RCI point.


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## harveyhaddixfan (Jul 16, 2018)

tschwa2 said:


> The problem I have with RCI points and RCI in general is the ever increasing fees associated with exchanges, membership fees, and guest certificates.  Add the fact that more and more resorts are adding resort fees on top of everything else some of which specifically only apply to RCI and II exchanges make RCI points less and less attractive even if your points are at or under a penny per RCI point.



Amen to that! It’s how I can still justify keeping my week at Beachwoods @ over $1k a year for a 2BR lockout. Would cost me $800-900 on a trade with the points costing about $400 (37k for a 1BR 4/4 just before prime season), $240 exchange, $175 extortion fee, I mean resort fee plus the cost of RCI membership and a $79 guest Cert if I wasn’t checking in. 

What’s good though are places like the Wyndham PCB where you can get a 1BR in prime for 37k-45k. All in max there is like $750, a steal for a gulf front room in the summer.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 17, 2018)

I disagree with some of the info above, but to each their own.


There are benefits to both, RCI fee's have increased, but I would assume the increase in RCI fees, dont match the increase in maint fee (Obviously pending where you own)

It really depends on how you travel as a individual. If you want unit 202 every year in Panama City Beach Fl, you need to own that. But if your flexible, RCI Points seem to be a winner.

This is just my opinion though.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 17, 2018)

Exchange fees vary depending on if you are exchanging into an RCI points resort or an RCI Weeks resort.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 17, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> So resort xx has weeks converted to RCI points / you find buyers ( ie : long term renters who sign a " term lease " )
> 
> The 6 year RTU( minimum ) cycle gives both parties a level of certainty .
> For the buyer: who wants (say) Myrtle Beach in the summer - this allows them to plan & book 12 + months out .
> ...


*********

I assume the -" by all means .. Get it ! " is aimed at TUG members who have experience .

Away we Go / Alan Cole - once posted that ,when he first bought Vac. Village Parkway in RCI points on ebay / he did not know that there were different points values
for the same MF  He bought a lower point week  for pennies on ebay . Later he sold it for pennies and paid a bit more to get the 92,500 point contract .

Your program makes sense for someone who is not ready to go through that learning curve /  and just wants some nice family vacations
without a " forever commitment .[/QUOTE]

The 6 Year opt out is a big feature for alot of people. 

Yes, Vacation Village has some nice points pgks especially if you are exchanging a bit. I agree with that. that 92,500 is a nice package. I also like the bigger pkg they have. 

I personally own 47k RCI points, and A week at Marriott, and I can say Im able to go last minute and get 3 weeks a year as long as I dont have a particular place to go.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 17, 2018)

Just ran a quick search on my account. 

This is how I travel (Its not for everyone)


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 17, 2018)

If you can travel last min, the deals are unbeatable.
Bonnet Creek- 7,900 Points- $79 in maint fees. and a $239 Exchange Fee.

And that a 2bdrm


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## tschwa2 (Jul 17, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> Exchange fees vary depending on if you are exchanging into an RCI points resort or an RCI Weeks resort.


Yes  $239 for weeks inventory and $209 for 7-13 days into points inventory.  On top of that points membership fee averages $102 if you re-up every 2 years.  The message my home resort is giving is that RCI is encouraging resorts to add daily resort fees to exchanges to add to their revenue in the amount of $10-$25 per night.  That is another $70-$175 for a 7 night stay.  And all of this is fine and dandy for the most prime of stays if you can happen to get what you want but for anything other than prime when you $400 in fees before even using any points not so much.


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## tschwa2 (Jul 17, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> If you can travel last min, the deals are unbeatable.
> Bonnet Creek- 7,900 Points- $79 in maint fees. and a $209 Exchange Fee.
> 
> And that a 2bdrm


None of the ones you showed gave you more than a 30 day lead time,  so yes it can work great for those who have off the whole summer and can travel to florida or Hawaii with very little lead time.  Discounted inventory is also almost exclusively weeks inventory which would bring the exchange fee up to $239 not $209.  I wouldn't be surprised if most of those last minute offers are also in last calls for $294 or less.  

I know you now sell your RCI points packages and you are trying hard to convince potential customers but it isn't nearly as rosy as you make it seem, although it can work for some.


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## Jan M. (Jul 17, 2018)

tschwa2 said:


> Yes  $239 for weeks inventory and $209 for 7-13 days into points inventory.  On top of that points membership fee averages $102 if you re-up every 2 years.  The message my home resort is giving is that RCI is encouraging resorts to add daily resort fees to exchanges to add to their revenue in the amount of $10-$25 per night.  That is another $70-$175 for a 7 night stay.  And all of this is fine and dandy for the most prime of stays if you can happen to get what you want but for anything other than prime when you $400 in fees before even using any points not so much.



The exchange fee for RCI points is $239 for a 7 night stay.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 17, 2018)

tschwa2 said:


> None of the ones you showed gave you more than a 30 day lead time,  so yes it can work great for those who have off the whole summer and can travel to florida or Hawaii with very little lead time.  Discounted inventory is also almost exclusively weeks inventory which would bring the exchange fee up to $239 not $209.  I wouldn't be surprised if most of those last minute offers are also in last calls for $294 or less.
> 
> I know you now sell your RCI points packages and you are trying hard to convince potential customers but it isn't nearly as rosy as you make it seem, although it can work for some.


 
I am in NO way trying to convince ANYONE. I use it for me. I dont understand why you feel the need to attack me as a "Sales Person".. I dont care what whoever owns, I really 100% could careless. Im sure youre the guy who trolls around all the post looking to flex your keyboard muscles. You are barking up the wrong tree.. I dont care what your opinion is. I was simply stating what works for me.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 17, 2018)

tschwa2 said:


> None of the ones you showed gave you more than a 30 day lead time,  so yes it can work great for those who have off the whole summer and can travel to florida or Hawaii with very little lead time.  Discounted inventory is also almost exclusively weeks inventory which would bring the exchange fee up to $239 not $209.  I wouldn't be surprised if most of those last minute offers are also in last calls for $294 or less.
> 
> I know you now sell your RCI points packages and you are trying hard to convince potential customers but it isn't nearly as rosy as you make it seem, although it can work for some.



The problem is you're SO jaded by the timeshare industry, you jump at every chance to try and prove someone wrong. And in this instance YOU CANT. 7,900 Points for a week in a 2bdrm at Bonnett Creek is cheaper than you will every find it, no matter what system you look in.. and I also stated i travel last min, if you can travel last min. etc etc. That was not covered up. Ive been in this industry a long time and can assure you there is no special program for a mass of people. Everyone's travel habits are different and some of the WORSE programs work the BEST for certain people.


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## tschwa2 (Jul 17, 2018)

Funny thing is I am not really "that" jaded.  I just think you have to have MF's lower than a penny a point and have more flexibility than most have in order to take advantage of the deals, you need to check several times a day, be willing to book immediately and be incredibly flexible.  I can do all of those things and I do but I don't know anyone else who can.


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## ronparise (Jul 17, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> Pure points, I am still not sure how they are legit. Basically from my understanding is, the owner buys 10,000 points and then can rent up to 500k through the resort. I have heard mixed reviews on how RCI feels about this. One side says RCI knows and is ok with it, the other side said its a SCAM. So who really know. The problem is with RCI points, you need atleast 60k to get a decent week somewhere and to rent 50k points at .03 a point, your paying $1500 dollars. With real RCI points you could have 150,000 and get more than that 1 week.
> 
> Pure Points in MY opinion is garbage. Its a sleezy sales technique that someone found while exploiting the system.




What you have described, if I understand you correctly,  is,  to my way of thinking,  "pure points" It is at least from the perspective of the buyer.  What I mean is, he has the use of the points without the ownership. What you have done is to separate the use rights from the ownership. Which is what I did with wyndham points (I retained the ownership buy sold the use to someone else.  In other words you are renting RCI points which as I understand it not permitted

I guess I never knew that you could do owner to owner transfers of RCI points ;  Can you do it on the weeks side,  with TPU?

so a couple of questions 
You say you represent the developer. What developer? 
Could a legacy resort, where the developer is long gone, do this with weeks (points) they own?

Why couldnt I do it? .....I proposed something similar years ago here on TUG and called it the Viking Ship Vacation Club

https://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index...-liquid-timeshare-resale-market.167215/page-8

My post is near the bottom of the page


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 17, 2018)

ronparise said:


> What you have described, if I understand you correctly,  is,  to my way of thinking,  "pure points" It is at least from the perspective of the buyer.  What I mean is, he has the use of the points without the ownership. What you have done is to separate the use rights from the ownership. Which is what I did with wyndham points (I retained the ownership buy sold the use to someone else.  In other words you are renting RCI points which as I understand it not permitted
> 
> I guess I never knew that you could do owner to owner transfers of RCI points ;  Can you do it on the weeks side,  with TPU?
> 
> ...



I do not sale Pure Points, but I have several contacts in the industry that does. They rent points directly from the Developers pool. The developer, which the biggest one I know about is Florida Vacation Villas. They Sell 10k points and then allow the owner to rent points for .02 or .03 a point. So the owners are given a certificate of ownership (Like CWA) for those 10k points and then given 500k allowances each year. Its a genius concept, but a severe determent maint wise if they actually rent points. 

I love the Viking Ship Vacation Club. I LOVE IT!!!!


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## Stark (Jul 21, 2018)

I have a question.  We have wyndham (like and enjoy it).  However, we were talked into going platinum because they went on about how we would never pay a penny because it would be covered by renting weeks through a broker.  It is 14 days after the fact and I really wish we hadn't done it.  We don't have that kind of money and we already had more points then we could ever use.  Anyway, today our sales rep called and said something wasn't signed and he was going to send it with a postage paid envelope for me to sign and send back.  Do I by any chance have a loophole we could get out of these extra 301,000 points?  Like what if we do not sign.  Just wondering if you know. We still want our regular 700,000 points just not the new ones.


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## ecwinch (Jul 21, 2018)

Stark said:


> I have a question.  We have wyndham (like and enjoy it).  However, we were talked into going platinum because they went on about how we would never pay a penny because it would be covered by renting weeks through a broker.  It is 14 days after the fact and I really wish we hadn't done it.  We don't have that kind of money and we already had more points then we could ever use.  Anyway, today our sales rep called and said something wasn't signed and he was going to send it with a postage paid envelope for me to sign and send back.  Do I by any chance have a loophole we could get out of these extra 301,000 points?  Like what if we do not sign.  Just wondering if you know. We still want our regular 700,000 points just not the new ones.



If it was a mandatory disclosure document required by the state where you signed the contract, then I would definitely push back. For instance, in many states the recession clock does not start until they provide you with the Public Offering Statement. Operating under the assumption that whatever he is sending you is important enough for them to reach out, I would probably immediately drop my recession notice in the mail and not wait for the mail to arrive.

Then when it does arrive, and if Wyndham will not process the recession, I would probably spend a few bucks to consult with a lawyer.


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## Jan M. (Jul 21, 2018)

Stark said:


> I have a question.  We have wyndham (like and enjoy it).  However, we were talked into going platinum because they went on about how we would never pay a penny because it would be covered by renting weeks through a broker.  It is 14 days after the fact and I really wish we hadn't done it.  We don't have that kind of money and we already had more points then we could ever use.  Anyway, today our sales rep called and said something wasn't signed and he was going to send it with a postage paid envelope for me to sign and send back.  Do I by any chance have a loophole we could get out of these extra 301,000 points?  Like what if we do not sign.  Just wondering if you know. We still want our regular 700,000 points just not the new ones.



What didn't get signed? If it is something critical to the sale you should be in luck like Eric said. But if it is something else like the privacy disclosure then you are probably stuck. Are the new purchase and points showing in your account yet? If they aren't then that means they can't complete the sale without the signature which is a good sign.


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## OutSkiing (Jul 22, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I think you just hit on the crux of the problem with timeshare sales tactics especially, and to a lesser extent on any sales model that is designed to manipulate people to encourage emotional vs factual decision making.
> 
> To me, ANY sales model that encourages anyone to make major life decisions that have a major financial impact within a period of hours is by definition designed to intentionally manipulate people.  My wife fell for it last week and we ended up rescinding.  The fact that Wyndham intentionally requires both husband and wife (or SO) is by design NOT because they necessarily want both decision makers - it’s really because it doubles their chances of a sale if one of the two people involved let’s their emotions get the best of them.  We all want to please our spouses and therefore we are less likely to resist our spouse in the moment.  This approach, at its core, is fundamentally dishonest in my view.
> 
> ...



I think you are right in this summary .. it is an emotional sale made during happy vacation time and the right chemistry between husband and wife plays a major role in it.  Plus add in ExSalesman2018's point that there would be more people rescinding if one spouse acted alone.  We purchased developer points in the beginning and then supplemented with resale a few years later .. would never buy developer again.  But I do not condemn developer sales as 'fundamentally dishonest'.  Imagine if there were not developer sales there would be no timeshare resorts and therefore no resale sales. We would all be staying in hotels and motels or hauling $50k RVs around to campgrounds.  My believe is that it's fairly difficult to make a sale of a condo unit in the first place, let alone sell each unit 52 times just to fill it up.  Developers take a big risk to make their grand resort vision come true.  It requires a sophisticated sales machine to place all that inventory.  I think most of the purchase price goes into feeding that sales machine. 

Once people get back from vacation and into the 'grind' of our jobs, we tend not to consider vacation important enough to make a major purchase. We don't focus on it again until next vacation. At which time another salesman has another 90 minute shot at convincing us.

If it could be done more cheaply, wouldn't someone have figured out a way to do it cheaper? Don't all the major timeshare resorts have similar developer sale cost structures? 

Bob


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 22, 2018)

OutSkiing said:


> I think you are right in this summary .. it is an emotional sale made during happy vacation time and the right chemistry between husband and wife plays a major role in it.  Plus add in ExSalesman2018's point that there would be more people rescinding if one spouse acted alone.  We purchased developer points in the beginning and then supplemented with resale a few years later .. would never buy developer again.  But I do not condemn developer sales as 'fundamentally dishonest'.  Imagine if there were not developer sales there would be no timeshare resorts and therefore no resale sales. We would all be staying in hotels and motels or hauling $50k RVs around to campgrounds.  My believe is that it's fairly difficult to make a sale of a condo unit in the first place, let alone sell each unit 52 times just to fill it up.  Developers take a big risk to make their grand resort vision come true.  It requires a sophisticated sales machine to place all that inventory.  I think most of the purchase price goes into feeding that sales machine.
> 
> Once people get back from vacation and into the 'grind' of our jobs, we tend not to consider vacation important enough to make a major purchase. We don't focus on it again until next vacation. At which time another salesman has another 90 minute shot at convincing us.
> 
> ...



I don't take issue with the end goal of the timeshare companies, I take serious issue with their _methods_.  And yes, I will not back down on the point that their methods are fundamentally dishonest in nature.  It's the _how_ I take issue with, not the _what_.  All developers take a big risk on large projects.  Do commercial developers leverage the same deceptive sales practices that the timeshare companies do?  Nope.  Residential developers also take big risks on their large residential projects, do they use deceptive high pressure sales practices like this?  Nope. Mostly because in comparison residential and commercial real estate developers are subject to much more stringent regulations surrounding their sales practices - because at the end of the day the person or company has to apply for a mortgage to make the purchase, therefore most things have to be on the up and up as a result - since a regulated financial transaction is taking place.  Ideally I would love to see timeshares actually become a real estate instrument (which they are not at present in reality), and be subject to the same regulations as other real estate transactions.  This one simple change would put an end to most of the problems inherent in this industry vertical.  This same change would also pretty much eliminate the somewhat loosey goosey resale market as it exists today.  

I would even go so far as to say that timeshare companies could actually do what I'm suggesting here, but they intentionally do _not_ go down this road because if they did, they would have to walk away from the deceptive high pressure sales tactics used today. They would actually have to re-engineer their sales practices to handle them in a more ethical and straightforward manner.  I get what you are saying that they have a narrow window of opportunity since people only visit when on vacation, and therefore it's not all their fault.  I haven't given it a ton of thought, but I would surmise there's a better business model out there that has yet to be discovered and implemented.  And yes I agree without the developer purchases, there would be no resale market either.  It's a chicken/egg thing.  

I'm actually a bit surprised that the timeshare companies don't have termination clauses that require the timeshare to be handed back to the developer whenever the owner is no longer interested in owning their timeshare.  I suspect this is because the rescission rate would be too high to stay in business.  I think the Ovations concept is trying to do something along this line just in a different way.  Provide a giveback method for the developer to inherit resale contracts back into inventory.  It's a market test to see if the developer can take back contracts and resell them again at a lower $$$/1000 points, such that over the long term they may actually bring down the up front costs of selling developer points since they may be able to generate enough volume reselling giveback contracts.  If they can actually pull it off and make the numbers work over time, they can start writing in termination contract verbiage to prevent owners from reselling independently.  Taking this approach would eliminate the "freebie" secondary markets that exist today (which would really piss off some TUG folks I would think! )  This is what I would try to do if I was the developer - control the secondary market by buying back resale contracts and putting them onto a controlled secondary market at a much reduced $$$/1000 rate, that would in turn allow them to bring down the cost of developer point purchases to a much more palatable $$$/1000 threshold.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 22, 2018)

ecwinch said:


> reach out, I would probably immediately drop my recession notice in the mail and not wait for the mail to





HitchHiker71 said:


> I don't take issue with the end goal of the timeshare companies, I take serious issue with their _methods_.  And yes, I will not back down on the point that their methods are fundamentally dishonest in nature.  It's the _how_ I take issue with, not the _what_.  All developers take a big risk on large projects.  Do commercial developers leverage the same deceptive sales practices that the timeshare companies do?  Nope.  Residential developers also take big risks on their large residential projects, do they use deceptive high pressure sales practices like this?  Nope. Mostly because in comparison residential and commercial real estate developers are subject to much more stringent regulations surrounding their sales practices - because at the end of the day the person or company has to apply for a mortgage to make the purchase, therefore most things have to be on the up and up as a result - since a regulated financial transaction is taking place.  Ideally I would love to see timeshares actually become a real estate instrument (which they are not at present in reality), and be subject to the same regulations as other real estate transactions.  This one simple change would put an end to most of the problems inherent in this industry vertical.  This same change would also pretty much eliminate the somewhat loosey goosey resale market as it exists today.
> 
> I would even go so far as to say that timeshare companies could actually do what I'm suggesting here, but they intentionally do _not_ go down this road because if they did, they would have to walk away from the deceptive high pressure sales tactics used today. They would actually have to re-engineer their sales practices to handle them in a more ethical and straightforward manner.  I get what you are saying that they have a narrow window of opportunity since people only visit when on vacation, and therefore it's not all their fault.  I haven't given it a ton of thought, but I would surmise there's a better business model out there that has yet to be discovered and implemented.  And yes I agree without the developer purchases, there would be no resale market either.  It's a chicken/egg thing.
> 
> I'm actually a bit surprised that the timeshare companies don't have termination clauses that require the timeshare to be handed back to the developer whenever the owner is no longer interested in owning their timeshare.  I suspect this is because the rescission rate would be too high to stay in business.  I think the Ovations concept is trying to do something along this line just in a different way.  Provide a giveback method for the developer to inherit resale contracts back into inventory.  It's a market test to see if the developer can take back contracts and resell them again at a lower $$$/1000 points, such that over the long term they may actually bring down the up front costs of selling developer points since they may be able to generate enough volume reselling giveback contracts.  If they can actually pull it off and make the numbers work over time, they can start writing in termination contract verbiage to prevent owners from reselling independently.  Taking this approach would eliminate the "freebie" secondary markets that exist today (which would really piss off some TUG folks I would think! )  This is what I would try to do if I was the developer - control the secondary market by buying back resale contracts and putting them onto a controlled secondary market at a much reduced $$$/1000 rate, that would in turn allow them to bring down the cost of developer point purchases to a much more palatable $$$/1000 threshold.



I somewhat agree to alot of what your saying. The problem is if the developer takes all these contracts back their budget suffers because on top the inventory they are sitting on they have to pay the cost of the resale inventory and it can take months before its all deeded and re titled etc to be able to be sold. I can assure you of one thing, the LAST thing people on this forum want is the developer being in control of the resale market. If they get their hands on it there will be no more good deals. Everyone will have to pay inflated prices for something that in the end, would still be worth nothing. 

The best "Inhouse" sales model would be to make maint fee's all the same across the board (obviously per company)

If all of wyndhams maint fee were the same, 90% of the bullcrap pitches would cease to exist and it would be a sales model geared towards value of owning more points. Right now people are talked in and out of resorts all day. Some people swap back in forth 3-4 times spending 80k to chase the next base maint fee. BUT from a developers stand point, a billion dollar company can handle complaints and legally strong arm most people to keep and infact PAY for their contracts. The problem here is, if they just wanted more points, they could go to the secondary market and buy them for pennies. 

Its a double edge sword. Do we deal with the complaints and have a billion dollars in sales, or cease the complaints and sale 250 million?

Some of the most SOUGHT after timeshare companies do this. They have the same maint no matter where you own, you just pay more maint for the more points you own. And if you wanted to, as they already have, make it more points to go to newer resorts. Then there cannot be any complaining from the owners. They either buy more points or go to the places they can with their current allotment.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 22, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I don't take issue with the end goal of the timeshare companies, I take serious issue with their _methods_.  And yes, I will not back down on the point that their methods are fundamentally dishonest in nature.  It's the _how_ I take issue with, not the _what_.  All developers take a big risk on large projects.  Do commercial developers leverage the same deceptive sales practices that the timeshare companies do?  Nope.  Residential developers also take big risks on their large residential projects, do they use deceptive high pressure sales practices like this?  Nope. Mostly because in comparison residential and commercial real estate developers are subject to much more stringent regulations surrounding their sales practices - because at the end of the day the person or company has to apply for a mortgage to make the purchase, therefore most things have to be on the up and up as a result - since a regulated financial transaction is taking place.  Ideally I would love to see timeshares actually become a real estate instrument (which they are not at present in reality), and be subject to the same regulations as other real estate transactions.  This one simple change would put an end to most of the problems inherent in this industry vertical.  This same change would also pretty much eliminate the somewhat loosey goosey resale market as it exists today.
> 
> I would even go so far as to say that timeshare companies could actually do what I'm suggesting here, but they intentionally do _not_ go down this road because if they did, they would have to walk away from the deceptive high pressure sales tactics used today. They would actually have to re-engineer their sales practices to handle them in a more ethical and straightforward manner.  I get what you are saying that they have a narrow window of opportunity since people only visit when on vacation, and therefore it's not all their fault.  I haven't given it a ton of thought, but I would surmise there's a better business model out there that has yet to be discovered and implemented.  And yes I agree without the developer purchases, there would be no resale market either.  It's a chicken/egg thing.
> 
> I'm actually a bit surprised that the timeshare companies don't have termination clauses that require the timeshare to be handed back to the developer whenever the owner is no longer interested in owning their timeshare.  I suspect this is because the rescission rate would be too high to stay in business.  I think the Ovations concept is trying to do something along this line just in a different way.  Provide a giveback method for the developer to inherit resale contracts back into inventory.  It's a market test to see if the developer can take back contracts and resell them again at a lower $$$/1000 points, such that over the long term they may actually bring down the up front costs of selling developer points since they may be able to generate enough volume reselling giveback contracts.  If they can actually pull it off and make the numbers work over time, they can start writing in termination contract verbiage to prevent owners from reselling independently.  Taking this approach would eliminate the "freebie" secondary markets that exist today (which would really piss off some TUG folks I would think! )  This is what I would try to do if I was the developer - control the secondary market by buying back resale contracts and putting them onto a controlled secondary market at a much reduced $$$/1000 rate, that would in turn allow them to bring down the cost of developer point purchases to a much more palatable $$$/1000 threshold.




But what is Palatable in the resale market? Wyndhams for Half price? Most people have paid $0 or less than 3k for their points. 1,000,000 Points can be had for under 10k. So when you palatable, are you saying Half price off developer pricing? 

Maybe ONLY make it available to purchase resale after you purchase 1 developer contract, then you have access to discounted inventory. There has to be a benefit to the developer to make changes to their current models because right now THEY ARE MURDERING it.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 22, 2018)

DO NOT GET LOST ... put that rescind letter (with it *STATING NOT iNTERESTED IN YOUR OFFERING*) in the mail today .. certified mail, return receipt.

If they DID NOT PROVIDE all the correct paper work or YOU DID NOT SIGN THE CORRECT PAPERWORK .. SHAME ON THEM all ... the salesperson, his reviewing manager and the document preparation staff person.

You lucked out. Go buy a lottery ticket.


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## skotrla (Jul 22, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I don't take issue with the end goal of the timeshare companies, I take serious issue with their _methods_.  And yes, I will not back down on the point that their methods are fundamentally dishonest in nature.  It's the _how_ I take issue with, not the _what_.  All developers take a big risk on large projects.  Do commercial developers leverage the same deceptive sales practices that the timeshare companies do?  Nope.  Residential developers also take big risks on their large residential projects, do they use deceptive high pressure sales practices like this?  Nope. Mostly because in comparison residential and commercial real estate developers are subject to much more stringent regulations surrounding their sales practices - because at the end of the day the person or company has to apply for a mortgage to make the purchase, therefore most things have to be on the up and up as a result - since a regulated financial transaction is taking place.  Ideally I would love to see timeshares actually become a real estate instrument (which they are not at present in reality), and be subject to the same regulations as other real estate transactions.  This one simple change would put an end to most of the problems inherent in this industry vertical.  This same change would also pretty much eliminate the somewhat loosey goosey resale market as it exists today.
> 
> I would even go so far as to say that timeshare companies could actually do what I'm suggesting here, but they intentionally do _not_ go down this road because if they did, they would have to walk away from the deceptive high pressure sales tactics used today. They would actually have to re-engineer their sales practices to handle them in a more ethical and straightforward manner.  I get what you are saying that they have a narrow window of opportunity since people only visit when on vacation, and therefore it's not all their fault.  I haven't given it a ton of thought, but I would surmise there's a better business model out there that has yet to be discovered and implemented.  And yes I agree without the developer purchases, there would be no resale market either.  It's a chicken/egg thing.
> 
> I'm actually a bit surprised that the timeshare companies don't have termination clauses that require the timeshare to be handed back to the developer whenever the owner is no longer interested in owning their timeshare.  I suspect this is because the rescission rate would be too high to stay in business.  I think the Ovations concept is trying to do something along this line just in a different way.  Provide a giveback method for the developer to inherit resale contracts back into inventory.  It's a market test to see if the developer can take back contracts and resell them again at a lower $$$/1000 points, such that over the long term they may actually bring down the up front costs of selling developer points since they may be able to generate enough volume reselling giveback contracts.  If they can actually pull it off and make the numbers work over time, they can start writing in termination contract verbiage to prevent owners from reselling independently.  Taking this approach would eliminate the "freebie" secondary markets that exist today (which would really piss off some TUG folks I would think! )  This is what I would try to do if I was the developer - control the secondary market by buying back resale contracts and putting them onto a controlled secondary market at a much reduced $$$/1000 rate, that would in turn allow them to bring down the cost of developer point purchases to a much more palatable $$$/1000 threshold.



I agree - any business model with 99% depreciation the day you complete the purchase is broken and needs fixing.  Imagine if cars depreciated 99% when you drove them off the lot?

In a healthy market, you buy resale to save a little money, but that's offset by dealer incentives like financing, greater selection, less risk dealing with an established company, etc.

-Scott


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## ecwinch (Jul 23, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> I somewhat agree to alot of what your saying. The problem is if the developer takes all these contracts back their budget suffers because on top the inventory they are sitting on they have to pay the cost of the resale inventory and it can take months before its all deeded and re titled etc to be able to be sold.* I can assure you of one thing, the LAST thing people on this forum want is the developer being in control of the resale market.* If they get their hands on it there will be no more good deals. Everyone will have to pay inflated prices for something that in the end, would still be worth nothing.



I would disagree with you on the highlighted point. At present it is a zero-sum game. For every person who overpaid, there is someone who got a bargain. But it is the lack of developer support for the resale market that drives that. Imagine what new car sales would look like if there was no market for used cars.

As a sales person how would you respond to someone who asked about the resale value of getting out of the Club? You are selling the tremendous value of joining the Club - so what happens when I want to leave?


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## ronparise (Jul 23, 2018)

ExSalesman2018 said:


> I somewhat agree to alot of what your saying. The problem is if the developer takes all these contracts back their budget suffers because on top the inventory they are sitting on they have to pay the cost of the resale inventory and it can take months before its all deeded and re titled etc to be able to be sold. I can assure you of one thing, the LAST thing people on this forum want is the developer being in control of the resale market. If they get their hands on it there will be no more good deals. Everyone will have to pay inflated prices for something that in the end, would still be worth nothing.
> 
> The best "Inhouse" sales model would be to make maint fee's all the same across the board (obviously per company)
> 
> ...


 

Wyndham has to sell points to continue to make money, I know they make money from the management of the club and resorts, but the real money is from selling points.  Until recently the only way to create new points to sell was to buy or build new resorts. Either way there is the need to tie up significant corporate money until sales begin. And until the property is sold out the developer, (Wyndham) has to maintain the place.  Historically Wyndham tried to keep their costs of goods sold at about 15%

I think bonnet creek was the last property that Wyndham developed from the ground up. Since then wyndham tried  to limit the amount of money tied up in unsold inventory. They called their strategy “asset light”  Clearwater is the most recent example. Someone else paid for the entire development and Wyndham sold the finished product. So they could make a ton of money with no investment of corporate capital.

So compare that to inventory they take back through Ovation or take back from megarenters

Cost of goods sold is zero and they resell as new. Even if they had to pay maintenance fees for 3 years before they get sold, and assuming they don’t make reservations with these points for rent, their cost would be less than $20/1000 points. And that represents a cost of goods sold of only 10%


The point I’m trying make is that it makes sense for Wyndham to enter the secondary market in a big way, and if they aren’t already doing it, I bet they soon do

As I see it, if they set the cost of goods sold target at 15% they can probably afford to pay $30per 1000 points. Ideally they will want to keep the flow of incoming points to just enough to keep their salesmen and rental agents busy. But if they buy back more than they can use they will have to pay maintenance fees. It I don’t see this as hurting their budget.  As long as what they paid for the points plus the maintenance fees stay under about $30/ 1000 points

Bottom line is that I don’t think wyndham will ever capture all the secondary market but I think they will be able to set the price. Ie if you want to buy on the secondary market you will have to pay more than the Wyndham price. I’d guess $20/1000 will get wyndham whatever they need and that’s still a pretty good price.

********************************

I noticed some mistakes in what I posted and have corrected them


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 23, 2018)

ecwinch said:


> I would disagree with you on the highlighted point. At present it is a zero-sum game. For every person who overpaid, there is someone who got a bargain. But it is the lack of developer support for the resale market that drives that. Imagine what new car sales would look like if there was no market for used cars.
> 
> As a sales person how would you respond to someone who asked about the resale value of getting out of the Club? You are selling the tremendous value of joining the Club - so what happens when I want to leave?



Exactly.  The prices would stabilize and the delta between the developer and resale prices would become more palatable over time (the gap in pricing would narrow significantly).

EDIT:  In fact I would take it a step further.  Using your same example of auto manufacturers, what have more and more auto manufacturers done over the past decade to promote their pre-owned products?  Answer: CPO - Certified Pre-Owned.  What has been the result?  CPO vehicles demand premium prices because the manufacturer continues to stand behind their product in the secondary market!  Hello timeshare companies, is anyone listening here!?!??!!


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## HitchHiker71 (Jul 23, 2018)

ronparise said:


> Wyndham has to sell points to continue to make money, I know they make money from the management of the club and resorts, but the real money is from selling points.  Until recently the only way to create new points to sell was to buy or build new resorts. Either way there is the need to tie up significant corporate money until sales begin. And until the property is sold out the developer, (Wyndham) has to maintain the place.  Historically Wyndham tried to keep their costs of goods sold at about 15%
> 
> I think bonnet creek was the last property that Wyndham developed from the ground up. Since then wyndham tried  to limit the amount of money tied up in unsold inventory. They called their strategy “asset light”  Clearwater is the most recent example. Someone else paid for the entire development and Wyndham sold the finished product. So they could make a ton of money with no investment of corporate capital.
> 
> ...



Ron I like the way you think.  I know you were a previous megarenter and speak from a volume of experience as well.  If Wyndham did what you propose and got the resale market up to $20-30/1000 points, that's much better than it is today, and subject to usage over time, could be much more palatable to people considering developer points purchases like me.  Much like purchasing a new car, if I keep it and use it frequently for 10 years, I'm happy getting 10% of what I originally paid for it on trade/resale 10 years down the line.  Same concept with timeshare usage at least on the surface.  And, I had to pay to maintain that car (fuel, maintenance and repairs, etc.), just like I'm paying to maintain the timeshare ownership.


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## breezez (Jul 23, 2018)

tschwa2 said:


> Funny thing is I am not really "that" jaded.  I just think you have to have MF's lower than a penny a point and have more flexibility than most have in order to take advantage of the deals, you need to check several times a day, be willing to book immediately and be incredibly flexible.  I can do all of those things and I do but I don't know anyone else who can.



I have (2) 98K contracts at Grandview.   I find that I can get so many stays with my points I have to use them with the partners also.  i.e I use them on car rentals when I stay.   I typically get around the .01 per point for rentals I pay around .0082 per point so no loss. 

I use these a lot for extended weekend stays around Florida.   I have other timeshares I use for bulk of my travel.   But I do enjoy these.    Also if you book out into future you will use more points but even then I can get pretty good deals

I have a Hilton Kona HI next year in summer for 90500 points in a 2 bedroom.    Not bad for $742 in MF and $250 exchange fee with points protection as I booked it during a special reduced exchange offer they had.

All that said I still like Resorts in II  better and you have less resort added fees.


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## ronparise (Jul 23, 2018)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Ron I like the way you think.  I know you were a previous megarenter and speak from a volume of experience as well.  If Wyndham did what you propose and got the resale market up to $20-30/1000 points, that's much better than it is today, and subject to usage over time, could be much more palatable to people considering developer points purchases like me.  Much like purchasing a new car, if I keep it and use it frequently for 10 years, I'm happy getting 10% of what I originally paid for it on trade/resale 10 years down the line.  Same concept with timeshare usage at least on the surface.  And, I had to pay to maintain that car (fuel, maintenance and repairs, etc.), just like I'm paying to maintain the timeshare ownership.



developer points would still be way too expensive relative to resale, even if resale prices got up to 30 cents

The only difference between developer purchased points and secondary market is VIP. I think the vip benefits have to be worth a whole lot more to get me to part with as much as developer purchased points cost


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## kaljor (Jul 23, 2018)

What about the benefit of booking at World Mark resorts and Margaritaville?  I can't do that with my resale only points.  Isn't that a benefit that has some real value?  Or would you just suggest that if I want some World Mark resorts I should buy World Mark resale.


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## tschwa2 (Jul 23, 2018)

kaljor said:


> What about the benefit of booking at World Mark resorts and Margaritaville?  I can't do that with my resale only points.  Isn't that a benefit that has some real value?  Or would you just suggest that if I want some World Mark resorts I should buy World Mark resale.


It would have some value but you probably would probably be overpaying by $18,000 vs buying a resale worldmark and to book at Margaritaville off season you need to be at least silver so you would be paying at least $50,000 to book Margaritaville. You could probably rent in the off season for not a whole lot more than MF's and if you wanted to go in season I think you need to be at least gold so most would be spending at least $80,000 to get to gold.  So unless you want to go to Margaritaville every year then I would just pay a premium on a rental when you want to go.


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## ronparise (Jul 24, 2018)

kaljor said:


> What about the benefit of booking at World Mark resorts and Margaritaville?  I can't do that with my resale only points.  Isn't that a benefit that has some real value?  Or would you just suggest that if I want some World Mark resorts I should buy World Mark resale.



I would never say vip benefits aren’t worth something ,  it’s just not worth as much as it used to be before wyndham closed the loopholes. We used to get discounts and upgrades on almost every reservation. But vip is worth something. It’s just not worth as much as it costs. Every thing that vip gives you can be purchased with cash on a pay as you go basis and the money you spend  will be a whole lot less than what vip costs

worldmark for example. You can buy a 10000 credit Worldmark account for $3000 and $800 or so a year mf gives you access to the Worldmark system. And remember you can “rent out” your credits in the years you don’t take a Worldmark vacation to cover your maintenance fees.   So Instead of buying vip ($$$$$)  to use the  Worldmark resorts just buy Worldmark ($)

And Margaritaville. Remember you can buyMargaritaville points on the secondary market

Or as mentioned in a post above, when you go outside the Wyndham system, just rent


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## skotrla (Jul 25, 2018)

Some timeshare sales training materials


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 31, 2018)

ecwinch said:


> For every person who ov





ecwinch said:


> I would disagree with you on the highlighted point. At present it is a zero-sum game. For every person who overpaid, there is someone who got a bargain. But it is the lack of developer support for the resale market that drives that. Imagine what new car sales would look like if there was no market for used cars.
> 
> As a sales person how would you respond to someone who asked about the resale value of getting out of the Club? You are selling the tremendous value of joining the Club - so what happens when I want to leave?



Well as a sales person, I always told them their value was in the vacations and memories they made with their families. I was an in-house rep though, so it was a little different for me.


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## ExSalesman2018 (Jul 31, 2018)

The industry is at a point where things are already turning. They are shutting down resale companies and relief companies left and right. Diamond was pretty much the first company to really take effect. They issued a few new programs. 1) Diamond Clarity- A transparent sales process where BEFORE the presentation the client is given material to read over of the dos and donts of the sales people, and maint fees for the last 5 years etc. 2) Diamond Transitions- a program that "If you qualify" Diamond will take your property back for free. AND they state if you work with a 3rd party resale company your status can be damaged. Wyndham is not far behind and all other large players will follow suit. I see it daily. Diamond sent a cease and desist to pretty much EVERY transfer company in the industry this year. They wont take Diamonds. In turn stopping ANY resale company from wanting to transfer someone out of their diamond into II or RCI points.


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## capital city (Jul 31, 2018)

I think it's pretty simple. Dont become Wastegate and devalue resale so much it's worth nothing. Why not just implement rofr? Pay something to get it back. Set the bar on the resale market and you will own it, otherwise stop the shady crap of taking away privileges.


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## Jmama9643 (Apr 26, 2019)

I am new to this site.  I looked and did a few searches, and am not seeing any threads on some of my questions.  So, am hoping Ron, or Exsalesman, or any other TUG member can answer some of my questions on the changes Wyndham has been making in the past few years.  I have been a Fairfield/Wyndham owner for about 20 years, and therefore have seen a LOT of changes, some good, and most bad.   Here are some of the latest changes that are REALLY Burning me up because they go against what the Sales People told ALL of us when we purchased our points.  I am Platinum with Wyndham Purchases, and have additional Resale points that I rent out.  So, here are some of my questions:
1. How is it legal, or the Right Thing to do, that when we cancel and TRY to rebook in our 'Upgrade' window that now the units VERY SELDOM come back on the system!?  Obviously Wyndham is keeping these for the Rental Programs!  I don't care if they are renting these points for other owners that do not wish to rent them their self, I just think it should be a 'Fair Fight' for the units!  They should have to use THE SAME SYSTEM we do to grab these weeks!  I DO NOT Like to use points at FULL COST for either my Own Vacations OR for rentals!  Most locations are a TOTAL RIPOFF at Full Price!  Hence the Reason I listened to the Sales Person(s) that convinced me to Buy More Points so I could Cancel and Rebook to get a REASONABLY Priced Vacations!!!  Oh, AND Said that I could RENT THEM!!!
2.  I have noticed that Just Recently Wyndham has started RAISING the Cost in Points for usage at long established Resorts, such as Branson, Grand Desert, and I am sure MANY Others!   What used to be 105k is now 108k for a 1 Bedroom Deluxe during Peak Season.  And I am noticing even HIGHER changes on Larger units, and other locations!  I KNOW for a FACT that MANY Sales People told me that 'These points 'cost' for each resort WOULD NEVER CHANGE!!!'   This is TOTAL BULLCRAP and we should NOT ALLOW this to take place!!!  I may do an in-depth review of my OLD Wyndham Books and review the Points cost compared to now on these resorts!
3.  How can Wyndham claim that we cannot Rent Our Own Points when THEY ARE NOW IN THE FREAKING RENTAL BUSINESS!!!??? 
I know I have more questions, But for now I would like to find out what any of you know about these 'newer' situations and changes to the way Wyndham is SCREWING us AGAIN!!!
Thanks for your input!


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## IsaiahB (Apr 26, 2019)

Jmama9643 said:


> I am new to this site.  I looked and did a few searches, and am not seeing any threads on some of my questions.  So, am hoping Ron, or Exsalesman, or any other TUG member can answer some of my questions on the changes Wyndham has been making in the past few years.  I have been a Fairfield/Wyndham owner for about 20 years, and therefore have seen a LOT of changes, some good, and most bad.   Here are some of the latest changes that are REALLY Burning me up because they go against what the Sales People told ALL of us when we purchased our points.  I am Platinum with Wyndham Purchases, and have additional Resale points that I rent out.  So, here are some of my questions:
> 1. How is it legal, or the Right Thing to do, that when we cancel and TRY to rebook in our 'Upgrade' window that now the units VERY SELDOM come back on the system!?  Obviously Wyndham is keeping these for the Rental Programs!  I don't care if they are renting these points for other owners that do not wish to rent them their self, I just think it should be a 'Fair Fight' for the units!  They should have to use THE SAME SYSTEM we do to grab these weeks!  I DO NOT Like to use points at FULL COST for either my Own Vacations OR for rentals!  Most locations are a TOTAL RIPOFF at Full Price!  Hence the Reason I listened to the Sales Person(s) that convinced me to Buy More Points so I could Cancel and Rebook to get a REASONABLY Priced Vacations!!!  Oh, AND Said that I could RENT THEM!!!
> 2.  I have noticed that Just Recently Wyndham has started RAISING the Cost in Points for usage at long established Resorts, such as Branson, Grand Desert, and I am sure MANY Others!   What used to be 105k is now 108k for a 1 Bedroom Deluxe during Peak Season.  And I am noticing even HIGHER changes on Larger units, and other locations!  I KNOW for a FACT that MANY Sales People told me that 'These points 'cost' for each resort WOULD NEVER CHANGE!!!'   This is TOTAL BULLCRAP and we should NOT ALLOW this to take place!!!  I may do an in-depth review of my OLD Wyndham Books and review the Points cost compared to now on these resorts!
> 3.  How can Wyndham claim that we cannot Rent Our Own Points when THEY ARE NOW IN THE FREAKING RENTAL BUSINESS!!!???
> ...



1) Cancel/Rebook was a loophole exploited to great extent. The intent of the VIP Point discount is to drive utilization on otherwise vacant inventory, not to give you a standing discount on all reservations. 
The canceled reservations do come back, but not immediately. All canceled inventory is not taken for Extra Holidays, that is absurd. 
2) This isn't happening. Please conduct your in-depth review and you will find this is not the case. 
3) Wyndham has had rental programs for as long as you have been an owner. You can rent, but not in an exploitative manner that was tolerated in the past.


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## CO skier (Apr 26, 2019)

Jmama9643 said:


> I looked and did a few searches, and am not seeing any threads on some of my questions.
> 1. How is it legal, or the Right Thing to do, that when we cancel and TRY to rebook in our 'Upgrade' window that now the units VERY SELDOM come back on the system!?


Search for "upgrade" in the Wyndham forum and limit the search to titles only.

This is one thread that may provide some answers to your question.

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/cancel-rebook-no-longer-possible.257729/



Sandy VDH said:


> This is the new normal.  Gone are the reliable cancel and rebook scenarios.  Find another strategy for booking or pay full points and request that booking be upgraded if avail.  Cancel is a black hole right now .





ecwinch said:


> Yes, they seem to have introduced some logic to ensure that cancellations within the 60 day window do not come back into inventory soon after they are cancelled. A rather simple solution if you think about it.


​


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## paxsarah (Apr 26, 2019)

As for #2, what Wyndham did was when they went to a normalized calendar they also fixed the day of the week a week starts on. You shouldn’t see peak season points increase (because that’s already the highest points), but in the transition from high to peak, for example, a high season Sunday to Sunday reservation may have the last night or two fall into peak season and the points will increase accordingly, with no split reservations as there used to be. On the flip side, your peak week might now include a night or two of high season, and points would be correspondingly lower.


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## paxsarah (Apr 26, 2019)

ecwinch said:


> Yes, they seem to have introduced some logic to ensure that cancellations within the 60 day window do not come back into inventory soon after they are cancelled.



And I think we’ve pretty much ascertained since this 2017 observation that this behavior extends to all cancellations, not just inside 60 days.


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## HitchHiker71 (Apr 26, 2019)

IsaiahB said:


> 1) Cancel/Rebook was a loophole exploited to great extent. The intent of the VIP Point discount is to drive utilization on otherwise vacant inventory, not to give you a standing discount on all reservations.
> The canceled reservations do come back, but not immediately. All canceled inventory is not taken for Extra Holidays, that is absurd.
> 2) This isn't happening. Please conduct your in-depth review and you will find this is not the case.
> 3) Wyndham has had rental programs for as long as you have been an owner. You can rent, but not in an exploitative manner that was tolerated in the past.



Agreed.  Specific to #1, they simply reversed the steps.  It's rebook/cancel now, instead of cancel/rebook.  Wyndham also changed the VIP upgrades around to allow for people who booked outside of the 60 day discount window to apply for a room upgrade.  So now, when anyone cancels a booking within 60 days (or perhaps even outside of the 60 day window), there is code in place that takes that inventory and properly applies it to VIPs who have requested room upgrades.


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## ecwinch (Apr 26, 2019)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Agreed.  Specific to #1, they simply reversed the steps.  It's rebook/cancel now, instead of cancel/rebook.  Wyndham also changed the VIP upgrades around to allow for people who booked outside of the 60 day discount window to apply for a room upgrade.  So now, when anyone cancels a booking within 60 days (or perhaps even outside of the 60 day window), there is code in place that takes that inventory and properly applies it to VIPs who have requested room upgrades.



Not sure I would use “properly” in that last sentence. Randomly might be more accurate.


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## HitchHiker71 (Apr 26, 2019)

ecwinch said:


> Not sure I would use “properly” in that last sentence. Randomly might be more accurate.



As someone who works in IT as a former programmer (I manage programmers among other teams now), there's absolutely nothing random about the code and what it does.  Code does exactly what it's told, 100% of the time, with exception, as a general rule.  There's zero randomness when it comes to code.  It may _appear _random to an observer, but that's just the appearance that is the result of human interpretations because we don't understand the underlying code logic in place for how the system works.  That said, there may be errors in the code logic, that can produce unexpected results, since humans program the systems, on occasion we inherently program in our human conditions which equate to human logic errors.  There can also be multiple subroutines running, that may overlap one another, competing codesets in other words.


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## Cyrus24 (Apr 26, 2019)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Agreed.  Specific to #1, they simply reversed the steps.  It's rebook/cancel now, instead of cancel/rebook.  Wyndham also changed the VIP upgrades around to allow for people who booked outside of the 60 day discount window to apply for a room upgrade.  So now, when anyone cancels a booking within 60 days (or perhaps even outside of the 60 day window), there is code in place that takes that inventory and properly applies it to VIPs who have requested room upgrades.


  Agree, you take out the word properly and the statement would remain totally accurate.  I like the change where they apply the upgrades to those that have been in the system the longest.  If someone cancels, that inventory should be freed up and given to the person who has been sitting in the system for months.  The system is now based on a first come first served logic for upgrades.  And, again, I like that, it's fair!!!


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## kaljor (Apr 26, 2019)

paxsarah said:


> As for #2, what Wyndham did was when they went to a normalized calendar they also fixed the day of the week a week starts on.



Well I think that answers a question I had.  I've wondered why the calendars in the Wyndham Directory show the dates of the numbered weeks as Fri to Fri, Sat to Sat, and Sun to Sun.  Experimenting with sample reservations showed me that the seasons change on Friday regardless of when you check in or check out.  I guess from your post that in the past, a reservation covering any of those three check in days would use the same amount of points.


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## ecwinch (Apr 26, 2019)

HitchHiker71 said:


> As someone who works in IT as a former programmer (I manage programmers among other teams now), there's absolutely nothing random about the code and what it does.  Code does exactly what it's told, 100% of the time, with exception, as a general rule.  There's zero randomness when it comes to code.  It may _appear _random to an observer, but that's just the appearance that is the result of human interpretations because we don't understand the underlying code logic in place for how the system works.  That said, there may be errors in the code logic, that can produce unexpected results, since humans program the systems, on occasion we inherently program in our human conditions which equate to human logic errors.  There can also be multiple subroutines running, that may overlap one another, competing codesets in other words.



As former programmer, I think you are being a little pedantic. Code that fails to implement the designed effect is not working properly.


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## pagosajim (Apr 26, 2019)

kaljor said:


> Well I think that answers a question I had.  I've wondered why the calendars in the Wyndham Directory show the dates of the numbered weeks as Fri to Fri, Sat to Sat, and Sun to Sun.  Experimenting with sample reservations showed me that the seasons change on Friday regardless of when you check in or check out.  I guess from your post that in the past, a reservation covering any of those three check in days would use the same amount of points.


I ran into this same observation when booking a few RARP reservations for this June.  What should have been a Saturday-Saturday stay in High season turned out to be 6 days of High and 1 day of Prime, which supports the observation that reservation cost is based on a Friday-Friday calendar.  Seems to me there is a potential points imbalance by putting all of those Saturday High reservation nights into a Prime reservation night.  Perhaps it would balance out on the other end over the course of the year, but I'm not so sure about that.  Would love to hear others analysis of the situation.


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## geist1223 (Apr 26, 2019)

Wyndham must hiremthe cheapest lowest functioning Coders available.


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## Sandi Bo (Apr 26, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> Agree, you take out the word properly and the statement would remain totally accurate.  I like the change where they apply the upgrades to those that have been in the system the longest.  If someone cancels, that inventory should be freed up and given to the person who has been sitting in the system for months.  The system is now based on a first come first served logic for upgrades.  And, again, I like that, it's fair!!!


If it worked. Sounds nice, but very poorly implemented.


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## CO skier (Apr 27, 2019)

IsaiahB said:


> All canceled inventory is not taken for Extra Holidays, that is absurd.


… or wjabsurd, as the case may be.


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## dgalati (Apr 27, 2019)

Web site is doing exactly what Wyndham paid for.
Sorry if any owners are inconvenienced with the not so new 2 year old system glitches.
1. no availability when there should be
2. system updates causing more problems then before the update
3. canceled inventory not returning for a cancel & rebook VIP discount
4.
Feel free to add to the list


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