# The Timeshare Business IS Toast ...



## RonaldCol (Apr 7, 2006)

I've been an owner of timeshares since year 2002, shortly after 9-11. The disallocations that catastrophic event caused reverberated throughout the world. What was once the norm, was no longer. Huge opportunities existed back then to obtain bargains everywhere. At that time I was able to purchase a Christmas Mountain Village Cottage UDI for a mere $1000. Even a prime Manhattan Club went begging for $4000 in the resale market on eBay. Since that initial purchase I've bought about 12, maybe 14 more timeshares (the exact number I don't recall readily). I've noticed a generally rising trend in prices of timeshares in the resale market over the last four years. Bargains can still be had but they are not abundant.

Over the last two years I've noticed a rising trend in complaints by owners of timeshares. Complaints cannot be categorized into any one particular area. Otherwise we can address them readily, correct them, and go on our merry way. Instead, these complaints are over the place: exchanges, rentals, sales, transfers, useage rights, ad absurdum. The complaints are endless and they are not stopping. Not a day goes by when one finds no complaints from anybody.

I had a few minutes last night to ruminate about my observations. I can, however, conclude and generalize into one observation: the timeshare business, as we once knew it, is TOAST.

Why, one asks, is it toast? Why isn't it merely a general disatisfaction with the timeshare environment?

A lot of my reasoning is derived from the fact that we are now benefitting from the ramifications of the internet. (The internet will continue to turn the world upside down, just as the steam engine did for Britain and heralded the beginning of the industrial revolution, and just as the development of the transistor did for the United States that heralded the dawn of technology.)

Prior to the use of the intenet, timeshares were sold the same way they are sold now: high pressure salesmanship. After the internet, the owners of timeshares can now swap, exchange, information with other owners. Owners of one timeshare from developer A can now talk and discuss with timeshare owners from developer B. There is a huge amount of information exchanged daily on the internet. Prior to the use of the internet for information exchange, owners never contacted other owners readily. The conventional way to discuss agendas was through the Home Owners Associations, or similar groups, which were controlled by the developers. Now, information is exchanged freely among owners. Now we know what goes on with one developer, one exchange company, one broker, etc., etc. WE HAVE KNOWLEDGE.

AND because we have knowledge, we are actully comparing how developers, resort management companies, HOAs, POAs, etc., are treating their members. This is why the timeshare industry is in such turmoil. We now know what is going on. When we didn't know what was going on, developers cloaked their activities under the darkness of our ignorance. Unfortunately, the prior model of operation created their own avenues and paths of waywardness. Each path went their own separate way, ignorant of the possibility that that path of operation was actually violating operations from another path. Now, with the internet and the knowledge that comes with it, we can see that the pre-internet environment created situations within the industry that allowed the right hand to not know what the left hand was doing.

We can expect more lawsuits as more light is shed on how wayward the timeshare industry evolved into. As one set of timeshare owners confront developers and exchange companies on how and why they are not treated fairly when compared to other groups, more disastisfaction will arise. All because of the information that is now swapped and exchanged freely. There will be huge opportunities for benefits from insightful timeshare owners.

The darkened room is now lit. We can now see how messy the room is. Quick, call the cleanup crew!


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 7, 2006)

*If it is toast, then why are developer sales booming?*

And why are resale prices increasing as you stated in your post?

Timesharing has been a cottage industry for 40 years.  The internet, the changing demographics, baby boomers, global economic boom, the continued expansion of the hotel brands is making it ripe for continued explosive growth of timesharing.

Problems in an industry just create opportunities for smart entrepreneurs to come into the market and meet an unserved need.  As long as people see opportunities to make money or save money, more participants will enter.

The bottom line is that almost everyone wants to travel the world and timesharing can be the most cost effective method for doing it.   So, the boom will continue.  There may be world events that delay the expansion for a while, but eventually, it will continue.


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## Jya-Ning (Apr 7, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> Problems in an industry just create opportunities for smart entrepreneurs to come into the market and meet an unserved need.  As long as people see opportunities to make money or save money, more participants will enter.


Agree.  With more information become open knowledge, the good company will get reward, the good idea will get support.  It will push the TS into good, better.  Once the risk part become nil, retail and resale value will be more closed.

Jya-Ning


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## Smooth Action (Apr 7, 2006)

*Hal la lu ya*

the timeshare business, as we once knew it, is TOAST.


 development of the transistor did for the United States that heralded the dawn of technology.)       

   .......................   (TRANSISTOR  was  invented by AT&T)    .................


The darkened room is now lit. We can now see how messy the room is. Quick, call the cleanup crew!
=============================================




Gee whiz RonaldCol,

One minute the United States is lite up by the invention of the transistor and the nexts it doom and gloom by all the knowlege made available by all the advancements in the electronic revolution.

Wait a minute....Ronald has fooled us.  He is actually saying that the Timeshare Industries has broken thru to a brand new vision thanks to the men and women of the telephone company.  Now all we need is some janitors.


By the way did the United States also invent the toaster?


Smooth Action


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## cotraveller (Apr 7, 2006)

*The Timeshare Business IS Toast ... *   French toast with cinnamon, powdered sugar, whipped butter, maple syrup and maybe a few fresh strawberries.  Yummmmmmmm.  I've been enjoying it since 2001.


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## timeos2 (Apr 7, 2006)

*Never been better*

I purchased all my timeshares prior to 1997 except for my inexpensive entry into RCI Points in 2003.  I can say without hesitation that timesharing has never been better.  I have choosen to take an active role in the operations of my resorts as well as trying to stay on top of industry trends.  I can also say that as early as 1996 I was beginning to regret my choice of timesharing but, fortunately, along came FF Points and from then on things kept getting better as more and more of my use was either at the resort I own or via a points based exchange. 

The howls seem to be coming mostly from those that were working the dark system to its fullest extent. While I'll admit to using it too I never really liked it or the effort it took to get the best value. Now I can easily control my use and maximize my value in an open world of almost overwhelming information. The Internet has freed timeshare owners who take advantage to better value than ever before.


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## gmarine (Apr 7, 2006)

Someone better tell Marriott, Starwood and all the other developers that they better shut down because the industry is "toast" and even though sales are booming that it means nothing.


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## JMSH (Apr 7, 2006)

RonaldCol: I will bet money that you are retired. I still work and have not got hours a day to spend time on the internet to check out all the deals, sales, conditions that are being offered on the internet. I require companies like II or RCI or even a real estate agent.


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## RonaldCol (Apr 7, 2006)

*Let's Clarify Our Points Before We Go Helter Skelte All Over the Place ...*

I reread my originating post and I don't think I was trying to say the timeshare industry is dead, or on the way to becoming "dead." If I can quote myself, I wrote:

"I had a few minutes last night to ruminate about my observations. I can, however, conclude and generalize into one observation: the timeshare business, as we once knew it, is TOAST."

The phrasing I used, "as we once knew it," should mean there is a new paradigm in it's incubation. The old methodologies that once worked cannot and will no longer work. Why? Because of the freer flow of information among owners.

Now, since we are newbies, relatively speaking, we are taking advantage of the new paradigm and those who are of the status quo are finding they can no longer hold on to their positions. The developers can no longer keep us in the dark. They can no longer lie to us with impunity. Salespeople can no longer make outrageous claims and not have prospects question them immediately. Resort management can no longer discriminate among owners without responsibility.

Most of the comments to my introverted ruminations did not disagree but went off on various tangents. I will address the tangential comments individually.


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## RonaldCol (Apr 7, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> And why are resale prices increasing as you stated in your post?
> 
> Timesharing has been a cottage industry for 40 years.  The internet, the changing demographics, baby boomers, global economic boom, the continued expansion of the hotel brands is making it ripe for continued explosive growth of timesharing.
> 
> ...




The obvious reason as to why the timeshare industry is growing by leaps and bounds is attributable to a simple answer: huge population growth. Within the huge population growth itself is the skewed growth in numbers of the people who travel and vacation, i.e. the baby boomers. Wherever the baby boomers leave their imprints is where there is growth.

We do not disagree on what is happening to the timeshare industry in this regard. I attempted to point out that the timeshare industry can no longer operate in the mode that it had been doing so for the 40 years of it's growth: a mode that disenfranchises owners rights because there is lack of information.


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## RonaldCol (Apr 7, 2006)

Smooth Action said:
			
		

> Gee whiz RonaldCol,
> 
> One minute the United States is lite up by the invention of the transistor and the nexts it doom and gloom by all the knowlege made available by all the advancements in the electronic revolution.
> 
> ...



Smooth, I read your comments and mused to myself I had much too much time on my hands.  I am glad I have had the opportunity to sound the gong of awakening for timeshare owners.

Arise ye masses of disenfranchised retail priced timeshare owners. Your time has come to change the world of vacationing. Speak aloud so yet others can hear ye.


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## RonaldCol (Apr 7, 2006)

cotraveller said:
			
		

> *The Timeshare Business IS Toast ... *   French toast with cinnamon, powdered sugar, whipped butter, maple syrup and maybe a few fresh strawberries.  Yummmmmmmm.  I've been enjoying it since 2001.



Cotraveller, it's obvious you are not diabetic. What you wrote is heresy to those TUGgers who are sugar-sensitive.


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## Dave M (Apr 7, 2006)

RonaldCol said:
			
		

> I reread my originating post and I don't think I was trying to say the timeshare industry is dead, or on the way to becoming "dead." If I can quote myself, I wrote:
> 
> "I had a few minutes last night to ruminate about my observations. I can, however, conclude and generalize into one observation: the timeshare business, as we once knew it, is TOAST."



I think the confusion is caused by the headline in your post in which you stated, "The Timeshare Business IS Toast ..."

It's difficult to ignore the capital letters of "IS"!

I would imagine that most of us, like me, look at a headline and often conclude that's the most important summary statement of the post, just as it would be for a newspaper article. 

Thus, I read your overall post just as those responding here did. I didn't respond only because others had already expressed my sentiments. However, that statement was what stood out in my mind, incorrectly it turns out, about what your true feelings are.


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## RonaldCol (Apr 7, 2006)

timeos2 said:
			
		

> I purchased all my timeshares prior to 1997 except for my inexpensive entry into RCI Points in 2003.  I can say without hesitation that timesharing has never been better.  I have choosen to take an active role in the operations of my resorts as well as trying to stay on top of industry trends.  I can also say that as early as 1996 I was beginning to regret my choice of timesharing but, fortunately, along came FF Points and from then on things kept getting better as more and more of my use was either at the resort I own or via a points based exchange.
> 
> The howls seem to be coming mostly from those that were working the dark system to its fullest extent. While I'll admit to using it too I never really liked it or the effort it took to get the best value. Now I can easily control my use and maximize my value in an open world of almost overwhelming information. The Internet has freed timeshare owners who take advantage to better value than ever before.



I have not been an owner of timeshares as long as you have so I have no comparison to pre-2002, my year of entry into the cornucopia of timesharing opportunities. The few years I have owned timeshares speak for themselves: I own quite a few at this point. Unlike most people who buy stocks that go down I do not like to throw good money after bad. Every purchase of timeshares I've made has been at higher and higher prices. Fool that I am I do like to pay higher prices for things I like to have. It's a confirmation to me that my previous purchases were great and future purchases are even greater. The portfolio isn't great, but it works very well. Very, very well.

What I have found in the resale timeshare industry is everywhere I turn there is an abundance of opportunities for profit, for pleasure, for enjoyment. (I am trying feverishly to work the sexual component into this; if I am able to do so, timesharing will be the answer to everyman with every problem!)

We are on the verge of a massive restructing of the timeshare paradigm. And it's going to be huge. The internet and it's savvy users will take the ball and run with it. Even Al Gore won't know what hit him.


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## RonaldCol (Apr 7, 2006)

Dave M said:
			
		

> I think the confusion is caused by the headline in your post in which you stated, "The Timeshare Business IS Toast ..."
> 
> It's difficult to ignore the capital letters of "IS"!
> 
> ...



I admit I wasn't as clear in my headline as I tried to be in the body of my comments. Mea culpa, mea culpa. It wasn't bad considering it was a first draft.


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## RonaldCol (Apr 7, 2006)

JMSH said:
			
		

> RonaldCol: I will bet money that you are retired. I still work and have not got hours a day to spend time on the internet to check out all the deals, sales, conditions that are being offered on the internet. I require companies like II or RCI or even a real estate agent.



I am not retired but am an active fifty something old timeshare amateur. I made an early choice in my life to make my work also my play. So family members complain I spend a lot of time working, but secretly I am really playing. Isn't that great? When others think I'm working I am really enjoying myself. Mind you, when I made that early choice, I sacrificed the need to make money and a few other things I can now honestly say I regret.

I've managed also to travel with my wife about 90 days a year. Our business is such that it is highly portable with the technology available nowadays.


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## reddiablosv (Apr 7, 2006)

RonaldCol said:
			
		

> I have not been an owner of timeshares as long as you have so I have no comparison to pre-2002, my year of entry into the cornucopia of timesharing opportunities. The few years I have owned timeshares speak for themselves: I own quite a few at this point. Unlike most people who buy stocks that go down I do not like to throw good money after bad. Every purchase of timeshares I've made has been at higher and higher prices. Fool that I am I do like to pay higher prices for things I like to have. It's a confirmation to me that my previous purchases were great and future purchases are even greater. The portfolio isn't great, but it works very well. Very, very well.
> 
> What I have found in the resale timeshare industry is everywhere I turn there is an abundance of opportunities for profit, for pleasure, for enjoyment. (I am trying feverishly to work the sexual component into this; if I am able to do so, timesharing will be the answer to everyman with every problem!)
> 
> We are on the verge of a massive restructing of the timeshare paradigm. And it's going to be huge. The internet and it's savvy users will take the ball and run with it. Even Al Gore won't know what hit him.



Ron, you are right on the mark.  Well located TSs can be purchased for well  less than construction costs, prime weeks can be reserved and then rented via the internet easily by anyone!  You don't have to be a big money developer or exchange company to get into the vacation rental business.   The internet is a whole new paradigm.  I now own appox. 25 weeks/year  .   Ben


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## Smooth Action (Apr 7, 2006)

*Hey ...   I think were all missing the point here......and that is*

Who Invented The Toaster?


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 8, 2006)

Smooth Action said:
			
		

> Who Invented The Toaster?



Well, didn't someone say that timesharing was the greatest creation sinced sliced bread?


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## RonaldCol (Apr 9, 2006)

*Another New Found Treasure!!!*

What is interesting to observe is the fact we are timeshare mavens who have become spoiled with the abundance of riches for the picking.

Since I joined the timeshare community I've always remarked after every resale timeshare I purchased, "I can't believe the opportunities for vacationing that a savvy user of timeshares can obtain." I shake my head after each and every purchase. 

I've become spoiled with the wealth of value in the timeshare resale market. Just as most of TUGgers have been spoiled. Why else would some of us own more weeks to use in a year than there calendar weeks? AND some of us continue to buy more and more. I've slowed down and only pick the best ones, yet there are those values out there in the timeshare resale market that others who are less savvy than us would consider great deals!

They are the ones who will shore up the values for the rest of us who have gotten in early with great, great deals.

Why, this week, as I was reserving my three allotted weeks of reservations (red, white and blue periods) with my Christmas Mountain UDI Cottage I discovered that I didn't have to have red, white and BLUE, but could have red, white and WHITE

 A blue week deposited into RCI points is only worth 15,000 points. A white week deposited is valued 10,500 points higher, at 25,500 points. So, at any time I could have a red week worth 38,500 points, a white week worth 25,500 points, and ANOTHER white week worth 25,500 points instead of red worth 38,500 points, white worth 25,500 points and blue worth 15,000 points. Instead of a total value of 79,000 points, it is now 89,500 points. Even I am discovering gold in them thar hills.


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## RonaldCol (Apr 9, 2006)

timeos2 said:
			
		

> I purchased all my timeshares prior to 1997 except for my inexpensive entry into RCI Points in 2003.  I can say without hesitation that timesharing has never been better.  I have choosen to take an active role in the operations of my resorts as well as trying to stay on top of industry trends.  I can also say that as early as 1996 I was beginning to regret my choice of timesharing but, fortunately, along came FF Points and from then on things kept getting better as more and more of my use was either at the resort I own or via a points based exchange.
> 
> The howls seem to be coming mostly from those that were working the dark system to its fullest extent. While I'll admit to using it too I never really liked it or the effort it took to get the best value. Now I can easily control my use and maximize my value in an open world of almost overwhelming information. The Internet has freed timeshare owners who take advantage to better value than ever before.



It's interesting to see your perspective. You purchased your timeshares prior to 1997. I would venture to say, and I stand corrected, you paid retail pricing. The resale market for timeshares didn't really take hold until eBay sellers listed them, at which point the "commoditization of timeshares" really got going.

Yet, you did NOT stop with your timeshare ownerships. You continued to seek avenues and opportunities to maximize the value of your ownerships. You used the internet to find exchange and rental opportunities that increased the value of your ownerships.  These opportunities appeared more frequently as the timeshare industry went the internet route.

No matter what pricing you paid for your timeshares, the internet and information exchange will still increase your opportunities and values. It is unbelievable what is happening in the timeshare world.

We have a timeshare we own in Anaheim. We paid $1000 for it, plus closing costs. Every year, by March we always find a renter and every year we obtain a net 20% return from it. With something like this staring in my face, how can I say that timesharing is a bad deal?


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## timeos2 (Apr 9, 2006)

*No retail but close*



			
				RonaldCol said:
			
		

> It's interesting to see your perspective. You purchased your timeshares prior to 1997. I would venture to say, and I stand corrected, you paid retail pricing. The resale market for timeshares didn't really take hold until eBay sellers listed them, at which point the "commoditization of timeshares" really got going.
> 
> Yet, you did NOT stop with your timeshare ownerships. You continued to seek avenues and opportunities to maximize the value of your ownerships. You used the internet to find exchange and rental opportunities that increased the value of your ownerships.  These opportunities appeared more frequently as the timeshare industry went the internet route.



No, we never paid full retail not even for our first, and still favorite, resort in 1993. We had been there to tour 4 times but just couldn't bring ourselves to buy at the price ($10,000 then) which seemd so high even though it was lower than the other, lesser resorts in far less desirable locations we had toured. About that time I saw a Timeshare Resales storefront a few miles from that resort and stopped in. Sure enough they had two weeks from the resort we wanted and the price was $2500 less.  Not the great deals of today but certainly a big savings to us.  So we took the paperwork to sign but didn't pay the downpayment while we thought the whole thing through. 

On a whim we went back to the resort and sat down with the Sales Director and showed him the paperwork.   In a miracle (yeah, right) they had someone back out of a deal who lost their deposit and now they could match the resale price! We couldn't resist at that point and we did buy from the Developer but at the known, resale price of that time. There was a comfort level (which I now know to be false of course) that somehow buying from them was "safer" than a resale.  A similar thing happened with our third purchase - FF points - but those are the only two out of seven total ownerships we ever bought from a developer and both at resale pricing levels. It was tough to find other owners and reliable resale brokers back then but when we found TUG in 1995 and then the Internet exploded shortly after the options and the values also exploded.  

We also had ownership at DVC back in the free pass days from my parents that we ultimately sold as we didn't like their RTU, high costs and total control. They had bought thinking the family would want Disney forever but found after only a few years they (and my siblings) tired of it. We took it and  made money on that, our only sale of a timeshare, even after repaying the original purchase cost. We really have found timesharing to be the best value for vacationing and it is more so now than ever before.  How anyone could say that the Internet hasn't made the options better, the costs lower and improved the rights and enjoyment of ts owners is beyond me. It has come at the cost of less "insider" knowledge and loss of many of the backdoor ways to scam the system but I don't miss those at all. Let everyone be informed, let the knowledge spread as far as possible and let everyone get the best they can from it.  I hated the secret days of unknown trade values and the lack of knowledge that timeshare sales people used to basically scam unsuspecting buyers. The more the light shines on both through whatever methods necessary the better off everyone is.


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## Carolinian (Apr 9, 2006)

Smooth Action said:
			
		

> Who Invented The Toaster?



Did Al Gore claim that one, too????


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 9, 2006)

*I think resales have hurt the developers in a huge way.*

Their sales have probably slipped a great deal because of the information on the internet.  I would bet that if they expected to sell one in ten new customers that walk in the door, before the internet, that their goal is to sell one in 20 now.  It is a numbers game for them, but now they are not getting as many uninformed people into the presentations;  they constantly get people like us who know better than to purchase retail.  That definitely affects their product.

In Orlando, we have lots of choices for trades, but the developers are no longer creating new places for us to stay, except The Gardens, which is for gay and lesbian owners and exchangers.  They can't sell the ones they have!  What a horrible job, selling timeshare at retail prices.


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 9, 2006)

Carolinian said:
			
		

> Did Al Gore claim that one, too????



Good one, Carolinian!  Nice to see the comic side of you.


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## brucecz (Apr 9, 2006)

The correct RCI Point totals for depositing UDI 2 bedroom Christmas Mountain Cottages 90 days or more before their check in dates as per the 2006 RCI Points Value Summary book  are as follows.  Christmas Mountain Silver Crown UDI Cottage Red weeks  are worth 43,500 RCI Points, White weeks 28,500 RCI Points and Blue Weeks 18,500 RCI Points.


Also for clarification seeing your CMV UDI is not a "Blended CMV UDI" with Bluegreen Points you are allowed a addtional 4th  (45 dayer) reservation of any colored time period reservation at the same time you have the other 3 reservations booked.

Instead of "only" getting 89,000 RCI Points someone ( not me) had posted in the past year on Tug that they claimed they squezzed over 300,000 RCI out of their CMV UDI Cottage ownership. Do you remember who made that claim? 

In case you forgot, I had explained to you several years ago that you could book 2 white weeks instead of just 1 white and 1 blue week. It seems you forgot what I told you when you first got your UDI, and later when you followed my entry into RCI Points  about the 2 whites allowed instead of just one white and one Blue.

Regards,
Bruce 




			
				RonaldCol said:
			
		

> What is interesting to observe is the fact we are timeshare mavens who have become spoiled with the abundance of riches for the picking.
> 
> Since I joined the timeshare community I've always remarked after every resale timeshare I purchased, "I can't believe the opportunities for vacationing that a savvy user of timeshares can obtain." I shake my head after each and every purchase.
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Apr 10, 2006)

While the argument that the internet has made rentals a much bigger factor in timesharing doesn't hold much water (the volume at the owner-driven rental sites is very underwhelming in the scheme of things, and other vacation rentals have always been around overlapping the timeshare market, just like hotels, cruises, etc.), there is probably something of a better argument that it has impacted developer sales.

But still, something more is obviously involved here.

In a recent column, timeshare columnist Jerry Sikes pointed out that in 2002, only 33% of timeshare sales were on the resale market, while figures given out at the recent ARDA convention indicated that resales now make up 47% of total timeshare sales.  That is a big jump, and internet use alone in that short a period could simply not realistically account for all of it.

Sikes points to something else that has been happening in that period as more and more of the big dvelopers have started pushing points.  It would appear that buyers are turning to the resale market to still find weeks-based timeshare.


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## "Roger" (Apr 10, 2006)

In essence what you are saying is that, if there is no change, this shows that the internet has had no effect.  If there is a change, then something else besides the internet must have involved.  No change, change... either way you declare yourself to be correct (the internet has had no influence on timesharing).

How has the internet affected timesharing...


Online trading.  (Interesting how this has played out.  At first people were finding great units at places that they never even considering asking for via an ongoing search.  Ongoing searches fell out of style.  Then, as internet trading became more popular, the competition for the great places increased and the seesaw tilted toward ongoing searches.)
Rentals.  (Try googling "OBX Rentals."  There are more rental agencies whose names appear than potential timeshare sites available through II or RCI.  Someone going to the area would be foolish to limit their options to timeshares. All in all, renting (and renting not just what traditionally have been timeshare units) is now a much more viable than in the past.)
Resales.  (Where could you resell your timeshare before.  Newspapers?  People look for jobs, homes, autos, and furniture in the want ads - not travel.  Lousy market.  Now there is a place that you can reach the proper audience.)
If you haven't seen the other thread, Carolinian claims that the internet has had zero effect on people looking for rentals.  He points out that in the past people could call to some location that they had no familiarity with and make contact with a rental agency who would then send them pictures.  Thus (in his view) the internet has not added anything that could not have been done before.  I guess in this case the parallel is that people in the past could write for a copy of the OBX newspaper and see if any timeshares were for sale.  Thus, the internet has had no effect on timeshare resales.

I am disappearing from this thread (as a participant).  If anyone wants to add other manners in which the Internet has affected the timeshare industry that would be interesting and I would be happy to read their comments.

[By the by, there are other forces changing the timeshare industry besides the Internet.  The most obvious one to come to mind is the entrance of the major hotel chains.  This has helped give credibility to an industry that had been considered a consumer sewer in the past.]


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## Mel (Apr 10, 2006)

It would be hard to prove that the internet has had no effect on any of those timeshare activities.  Perhap is has had little net effect in some cases, long term, but it has played a part in the changing landscape.

Just look at renting and resales.

In the past if you had a unit to rent or sell, you listed it in the paper, with a local rental or resale agent, and told everyone you could think about it.  You had a limited audience.

Now, you have a much broader audience.  It is easier to tell the world your unit is available - but it is also easier for the buy who owns the unit next door.  Thus while you have a broader market, the buyers also have access to broader supply.  This is a definite benefit to the buyers/renters.  The benefit to sellers depends on the quality of the resort, because that information is also more generally available.  If you have a top notch resale, buyers are going to be aware that it is worth more than the lower end resort.  Buyers no longer have to rely simply on name.  In the past, yes it was obvious that a Marriott (or Disney) should be a nice resort, but without the internet, how would you distinguish between Vistana, Orange Lake, or Oasis Lakes (all rated 8.5+) and Magic Tree Resort (5.63), Club Orlando (5.18) or Orlando Sun Village (5.00)?  How would you know the first three are generally worth more, or that you can buy the first three for less than most resale listings for the latter 3?


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 10, 2006)

Roger said:
			
		

> In essence what you are saying is that, if there is no change, this shows that the internet has had no effect.  If there is a change, then something else besides the internet must have involved.  No change, change... either way you declare yourself to be correct (the internet has had no influence on timesharing).
> 
> How has the internet affected timesharing...
> 
> ...



Roger,

The Internet and Rentals will change the face of timesharing forever.  Check back with me in 20 years.  You'll see.

Heck, sometimes it takes people decades to figure out what is happening right before them.  There were Japanese warriors still fighting World War II in the 80's.  The only reason they aren't any more is because they are all dead.  The same thing will happen in timesharing.  There will come a time when nobody alive will have been around in the good old days of timesharing.  They will wonder why anyone used anything but the internet to book a timesharing reservation.  And they will say, "they did what?"


----------



## RonaldCol (Apr 10, 2006)

brucecz said:
			
		

> The correct RCI Point totals for depositing UDI 2 bedroom Christmas Mountain Cottages 90 days or more before their check in dates as per the 2006 RCI Points Value Summary book  are as follows.  Christmas Mountain Silver Crown UDI Cottage Red weeks  are worth 43,500 RCI Points, White weeks 28,500 RCI Points and Blue Weeks 18,500 RCI Points.
> 
> 
> Also for clarification seeing your CMV UDI is not a "Blended CMV UDI" with Bluegreen Points you are allowed a addtional 4th  (45 dayer) reservation of any colored time period reservation at the same time you have the other 3 reservations booked.
> ...



You are correct in your comments above.


----------



## Carolinian (Apr 10, 2006)

Those who want to argue that ''the internet did it'' again look more at generalities rather than specifics, and as usual blur my arguments.  As to developer sales, I suggested that there is more of an argument as to impact with them than as to rentals.  But, the huge number change during a time when the penetration of the internet was already very established and not increasing by such large percentages, clearly shows that other factors were at work as well in the growth of resales compared to developer sales.

When I point out that the low volume of the best established owner rental sites on the internet are a drop in the bucket of the overall volume of timeshare, they want to argue non-timeshare rentals (as has been done in this thread).  But they want to ignore the fact that there were very well established rental agencies for non-timeshare beach cottages and condos in most beach resort areas long before Al Gore invented the internet.  This market has always been there and it has always overlapped timesharing.  It is NOT something new that magically appeared with the internet.

Nowhere to sell timeshare before the internet?  Balderdash!  On the OBX, the local timeshare resale and rental agency, Outer Banks Resort Rentals was founded by Marvin and Judy Beard not long after timeshare first appeared on the OBX. Even with the competitiion from the internet, I have no doubt that the annual resale volume of OBRR significantly exceeds the volume of OBX timeshare resales of all of the internet resale sites, including auction sites, combined.  And many resort areas with timeshare have similar agencies that have been around quite a while.

Well, I guess next they will be telling us that Al Gore invented timesharing ...


----------



## BocaBum99 (Apr 10, 2006)

Carolinian said:
			
		

> Those who want to argue that ''the internet did it'' again look more at generalities rather than specifics, and as usual blur my arguments.  As to developer sales, I suggested that there is more of an argument as to impact with them than as to rentals.  But, the huge number change during a time when the penetration of the internet was already very established and not increasing by such large percentages, clearly shows that other factors were at work as well in the growth of resales compared to developer sales.
> 
> When I point out that the low volume of the best established owner rental sites on the internet are a drop in the bucket of the overall volume of timeshare, they want to argue non-timeshare rentals (as has been done in this thread).  But they want to ignore the fact that there were very well established rental agencies for non-timeshare beach cottages and condos in most beach resort areas long before Al Gore invented the internet.  This market has always been there and it has always overlapped timesharing.  It is NOT something new that magically appeared with the internet.
> 
> ...



Well, now you've done it.  You actually used the same joke twice in the same thread.  You do know that that breaks internet protocol, don't you?  LOL.

The funny thing is that in 50 years, that generation will think that JW Marriott created timesharing.  After all, Marriott was the first real brand to bring timesharing to their customers.

Kemmons Wilson would have received that distinction if Wilson World would have succeeded and they renamed Orange Lake Country Club to Holiday Inn Country Club back in the 80's.


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## jme (Apr 11, 2006)

Dave M said:
			
		

> I think the confusion is caused by the headline in your post in which you stated, "The Timeshare Business IS Toast ..."
> 
> It's difficult to ignore the capital letters of "IS"!
> 
> ...


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## talkamotta (Apr 11, 2006)

Timesharing like everything else in this world is changing because of the internet and unlimited access to information.  I think its great... sometimes its a little hard for me to shift gears but I generally get on track. As the years go by, your game plan may need to be changed or adjusted, thats just part of the game. 
The bottom line is:  I used to stay at cheap hotels with lots of kids, now I stay in 5* timeshares and I pay  close to the same amount of money.  If I want to go some place (and hopefully that will be more frequent when I retire) I have options, timeshares, rentals of timeshares, hotels, packages and cruises. This also has a competition factor built in. 
I had my first plane ride when I was 17, now all my grandkids (oldest 14) have been on a plane at least a dozen times.  It seems its more affordable or maybe people are putting a higher priority on vacationing.


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## BocaBum99 (Apr 11, 2006)

The internet is all about empowering the little guy.  Anyone with a little creativity and an internet connection can rent or sell their timeshare for free.  Hard to imagine that happening in 1990.

Unfortunately, the internet will also accelerate the obsolesence of the weeks exchange system.  That's because weeks exchange is all about keeping secrets and preventing loose lips from sinking ships.

The internet is about empowerment through information.  Weeks exchange is about keeping secrets and a select few receiving all the spoils.


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## Carolinian (Apr 11, 2006)

Well, I guess some want to bring weeks vs. points into every discussion.

Points is about rigging the system to favor some groups over others rather than letting the even hand of the market work to set proper values.  Those who favor points are often those in areas overpointed by points systems, like overbuilt areas, that are getting a free ride by the way the points system is rigged.  Weeks is a market based system and some timesharers just don't want their timeshare valued at correct market values.

As to which system is really looking out for consumers, it is simple to see that it is points systems, not weeks systems that are in the gunsights of the class action lawsuits.  The exception is RCI Weeks, but that is due to a points-derived rental ripoff.

While we can all agree that some things are different in timesharing as a result of the internet, a central theme for a long time of some of the RCI advocates on these boards has been a contention that masses of timeshare  owner rentals on the internet forced RCI to start doing internet rentals itself.  The meager volume of such owner rentals through the major internet owner rental sites clearly shows that contention is just not true. So now, we are seeing more generalized comments about the internet and its impact.






			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> The internet is all about empowering the little guy.  Anyone with a little creativity and an internet connection can rent or sell their timeshare for free.  Hard to imagine that happening in 1990.
> 
> Unfortunately, the internet will also accelerate the obsolesence of the weeks exchange system.  That's because weeks exchange is all about keeping secrets and preventing loose lips from sinking ships.
> 
> The internet is about empowerment through information.  Weeks exchange is about keeping secrets and a select few receiving all the spoils.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Apr 11, 2006)

Carolinian said:
			
		

> Well, I guess some want to bring weeks vs. points into every discussion.
> 
> Points is about rigging the system to favor some groups over others rather than letting the even hand of the market work to set proper values.  Those who favor points are often those in areas overpointed by points systems, like overbuilt areas, that are getting a free ride by the way the points system is rigged.  Weeks is a market based system and some timesharers just don't want their timeshare valued at correct market values.
> 
> ...



It's funny.  You are the one who brought up points.  You don't see that word in my post, do you?  It doesn't even fit the context of my post, yet you quote it.  

My post is about the free flow of information on the internet and how that is incompatible with a system that requires secrecy and keeping their customers in the dark in order to operate effectively.

Also, you keep saying that there are RCI advocates saying that masses of timeshare owner rentals on the internet forced RCI to start doing internet rentals.  Can you please point out the post where this is stated?  I don't recall anyone saying that except for you.

RCI started doing rentals because there is more profit there.  Businesses always go where there is more profit or they go out of business.


----------



## Carolinian (Apr 11, 2006)

Well, there is a limit on where a company can go seeking a profit.  Ask Enron.  Ask the old Savings and Loans.  Presenting your company as an exchange company to lure deposits when you really want to function as a rental company is a fraud on consumers, just as big as Enron or the S&L's.

The points reference actually involves a series of preceding posts in this thread, and your post specifically attempts to make a comparision between weeks and points which slights weeks.

Free flow of information does NOT guarantee a fair system.  In the command economies of the old Soviet bloc and some third world countries, one could find out what the rigged prices were easily enough but that did NOT make them fair or reflective of true market prices.  Rigged and frozen points systems are very similar.

The excuse that the rental market for timeshares on the internet forced RCI to start doing the same thing has been argued periodically by RCI advocates almost since they first acknowledged RCI was renting out weeks to the general public.  Of course that followed their initial period of plain denial.





			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> It's funny.  You are the one who brought up points.  You don't see that word in my post, do you?  It doesn't even fit the context of my post, yet you quote it.
> 
> My post is about the free flow of information on the internet and how that is incompatible with a system that requires secrecy and keeping their customers in the dark in order to operate effectively.
> 
> ...


----------



## BocaBum99 (Apr 11, 2006)

Carolinian said:
			
		

> Well, there is a limit on where a company can go seeking a profit.  Ask Enron.  Ask the old Savings and Loans.  Presenting your company as an exchange company to lure deposits when you really want to function as a rental company is a fraud on consumers, just as big as Enron or the S&L's.



The only limits to profit are the Law and the Customers.  The customers are much more powerful.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Apr 11, 2006)

Carolinian said:
			
		

> The points reference actually involves a series of preceding posts in this thread, and your post specifically attempts to make a comparision between weeks and points which slights weeks.



I don't attempt to make a comparison between weeks and points.  What I state in my post is true whether or not point systems ever existed.

Weeks systems only function at all because there are depositers who get nothing for their deposits and many prime week depositers trade down.  If these two conditions didn't exist, there would be no weeks exchange systems.  They would all collapse as prime week deposits would dwindle and so would deposits from those who got nothing for what they put in.

Weeks advocates need to simply keep this as quiet as possible so that their system can last longer.  Keeping these secrets out of the hands of the masses in diametrically opposed to what the internet represents.

You have no idea that all of the promoting you have done on RCI rentals and anti-points posts is probably hurting your own cause.  You are educating people.  More education means less weeks exchange.  The good news for you is that almost nobody has seen any of your posts.  Your cause would probably be better served if you said nothing.  Loose lips sinks ships.


----------



## timeos2 (Apr 11, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> You have no idea that all of the promoting you have done on RCI rentals and anti-points posts is probably hurting your own cause.  You are educating people.  More education means less weeks exchange.  The good news for you is that almost nobody has seen any of your posts.  Your cause would probably be better served if you said nothing.  Loose lips sinks ships.



These last lines sum up what weeks exchanges are all about. It has always meant a secret trade easily manipulated and those who know how to work it benefit - the majority suffer.  The "loose lips" thing started back 6-8 years ago when the Internet/TUG was first really catching on and some of those who knew the great tricks posted them for others to enjoy. Didn't take long and the loopholes were closed - as they should have been - and thus the need to keep secrets continued.  The whole system is smoke and mirrors and fit in very well with the days of uninformed buyers and the worst of the sales techniques.  In the light of day provided by open forums and better communications between formerly isolated owners the week exchange process and results don't look very good anymore. The exceptions are the companies that focus on a level of quality and use times that can guarantee a fair trade. 

There is also a truth that by harping on the so called pluses of week for week trades some have actually helped highlight the serious flaws - unintentionally of course. But even that has served to increase overall knowledge for owners and that is a good result.  Open discussion and processes beat hidden and this has helped open the doors to many secret backrooms.


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## e.bram (Apr 11, 2006)

I don't see how developers can sell 52 weeks at developer prices, when only 8 weeks have any value.(weeks when people who have kids can vacaton). The scam of promising everyone who buys, prime weeks anywhere will eventually stop and new timeshares will stop with it. People will realize that points are a thinly veiled cover for this scam.


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## JeffV (Apr 11, 2006)

You seem to overlook the bazillion people who don't have kids, etc, etc.  It hasn't happened yet.


			
				e.bram said:
			
		

> I don't see how developers can sell 52 weeks at developer prices, when only 8 weeks have any value.(weeks when people who have kids can vacaton). The scam of promising everyone who buys, prime weeks anywhere will eventually stop and new timeshares will stop with it. People will realize that points are a thinly veiled cover for this scam.


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## e.bram (Apr 11, 2006)

JeffV:
      Even those who don't have koids,are attached to kids.(aunts, uncles, grandparents etc.) And there are not 6 times the number of people that can travel anytime as the ratio of prime weeks to the total weeks. Also there is the weather factor which effects a week's desirability.


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## AwayWeGo (Apr 11, 2006)

*I Like Good Deals Anybody Can Get, Not Just Ones That Disappear When People Find Out.*



			
				timeos2 said:
			
		

> Open discussion and processes beat hidden and this has helped open the doors to many secret backrooms.


I very much enjoy getting good deals -- so much so that I can't fully enjoy stuff I pay full freight for if I find out later it was available for lots less. 

But I don't care all that much for great deals that keep their advantage only so long as the general public is kept in the dark about them. 

I like...
Chesapeake Bay Bridge economy tickets (commuter & shopper).
Resale timeshares. 
eBay. 
Half.com 
Timeshare tour freebies. 
Tax-free shopping (e.g., in Delaware). 
Craig's List. 
OverStock.com 
Low-cost overseas timeshares for exchange into nice USA resorts. 
Generic items & store brands (ones that are as good as brand names or better). 
Yard sales & flea markets. 
Senior citizen discounts. 
Orlando city streets instead of Bee Line Expressway tolls. 
Wal*Mart. 
PriceLine & HotWire. 
Last Call & Instant Exchange. 
Price Club & BJ's Wholsesale Club. 
U.S. Marine Band concerts (also Army Band, Navy Band, USAF Band). 
...You get the idea. 
-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.


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## geekette (Apr 11, 2006)

e.bram said:
			
		

> JeffV:
> Even those who don't have koids,are attached to kids.(aunts, uncles, grandparents etc.) And there are not 6 times the number of people that can travel anytime as the ratio of prime weeks to the total weeks. Also there is the weather factor which effects a week's desirability.



Kids in no way factor into my decisions.  Nor does weather.  I like shoulder seasons because it isn't as crowded.  I don't care that a lot of "attractions" are shut down because they aren't attractive to me.  You are correct that there are some weeks that are more coveted, but there are plenty of people like me, and others that go for events in the area, or to be near family or whatnot.  Just because you don't wish to travel those other weeks does not mean they are without value.


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## Carolinian (Apr 11, 2006)

The real trade up comes from the rigged numbers racket of RCI Points.  I have posted before examples of how you can take a blue week at a so-so inland resort and use the points WITHIN the Points system (not a crossover) to get a summer oceanfront red week of the same size.  That is a trade up that is there every day in the wacky world of RCI Points but is unlikely ever to happen in the market oriented Weeks system.

When you get to the unfair generic crossover grids, you can really start getting into more unfair trades up for Points members looting prime inventory of the Weeks system.  Granted, they finally changed some of the numbers so that it is not as extreme as it used to be, but Weeks is still getting hosed.

What some want to complain about as trades up in Weeks are largely two things - 1) overbuilt areas where owners think their weeks have more value than the market does, caused by the oversupply, and 2) market anomalies where demand for a good week is weak for some reason, causing its market value to fall in a market based system.   Their cure is worse than the disease; to prop up values by freezing them so that market forces cannot work.

What really has to be published in a points system to make it honest and avoid the developer politicking for number assignments is to publish in detail the formula for establishing the numbers, and NO points system I know does that.  If they did, they could no longer cook the books and rig the system the way they do now.  If they did not rent weeks, there would be much less incentive to manipulate point values from an exchange company perspective.

For a weeks system to be honest, whoever is running it needs to be free of any conflict of interest, and that means no renting of weeks for their own benefit.  As long as there is no conflict of interest, publishing numbers is not that important.  I would have no problem with publication of exchange values as long as 1) the method for setting them and data to check it were public so there could be no developer politicking, and 2) that it was done on line where it could adjust frequently to account for ever changing supply and demand factors.

Any numbers based system that relies on tables printed with paper and ink is flawed becuase such a system lacks the flexibility to adjust for constant changes in supply and demand.

The Points system depends for its existance on looting prime inventory from the Weeks system in trades up through the unfair generic points grids and on rigging numbers to prop up the vlaue of favored resorts and areas at the expense of other resorts and areas.  As a general proposition with RCI Points this means overpointing resorts still in developer sales and hosing sold out resort. Indeed the term ''sold out resort'' has a sinister double meaning in the corrupt world of RCI Points.


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## e.bram (Apr 11, 2006)

Geekette:
     But you are going to pay developer prices for shoulder weeks, which is what the TS business needs to expand. I am with you on going off season. But I paid tops $300.00 for each of my timeshares. Developers cannot live with charging that for weeks. They are TOAST.(imho)


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## geekette (Apr 11, 2006)

e.bram said:
			
		

> Geekette:
> But you are going to pay developer prices for shoulder weeks, which is what the TS business needs to expand. I am with you on going off season. But I paid tops $300.00 for each of my timeshares. Developers cannot live with charging that for weeks. They are TOAST.(imho)



"I" won't pay developer prices, but, yes, "someone" will.  We are agreed.

I thought that some resorts actually charged less maint for offseason, tho the buy-in price was the same.  Seems to me that it was somewhere out west I read about this.  Rare, to be sure.


----------



## timeos2 (Apr 11, 2006)

*The Timeshare Business really IS Toast ...*



			
				Carolinian said:
			
		

> The real trade up comes from the rigged numbers racket of RCI Points.  I have posted before examples of how you can take a blue week at a so-so inland resort and use the points WITHIN the Points system (not a crossover) to get a summer oceanfront red week of the same size.  That is a trade up that is there every day in the wacky world of RCI Points but is unlikely ever to happen in the market oriented Weeks system.....



You are focusing on the micro – timeshare points vs weeks vs rentals etc - when the change is macro - how do people travel.  It involves timeshares but as a minute part of the total travel picture. Trying to keep timeshares as an exclusive, not overall travel related part of the pie just doesn't work.  

Timeshares are now just part - and still a very small part - of the total options available each and every time someone chooses to take a vacation.  Trying to hold them out of the rental market is futile.  An owner can rent one, the developers can rent them, the Associations can rent them and the exchange companies can rent them.  You cannot turn off the spigot.  

Timeshare owners see all that is happening - largely by the freedom of the Internet - and want options other than the old trade my week for yours. Some choose to rent, others choose a points system and still others opt out of timesharing all together.  The market has spoken and it is not to embrace the models of 15 to 25 years ago it is leveraging the dynamic marketplace of the Internet today.  

While no one is likely to convince some people that the week for week system and the old days of trade values and barter exchanges are dead the facts say they are.  And as much as I like them the various points systems aren't all that much healthier.  When compared to the volume that makes up travel dollars spent neither weeks or points are much more than a blip. RCI obviously understands that and is attempting to remake their system into one that reflects the travel options of today.  They also may or may not succeed but they see the clear handwriting on the wall.  It may very well be the glory days of timeshare as a standalone product are behind us.  It has never really reached more than niche status and may now never really grow beyond that. 

 That doesn’t mean there isn’t a value to those who know how to get it out but it may no longer be in growth mode as other, more flexible options continue to appear to tempt travelers dollars out their wallets. So the original post that timeshare IS toast may be closer to the truth than the OP realized.


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## Carolinian (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: The Timeshare Business really IS Toast ...*

You misstate the rental issue.  The problem is not all timeshare rentals.  It is exchange companies looting their exchange deposits, given in good faith by members for exchange purpose, to rent to the general public.

You try to blur that issue by encompassing owner rentals.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with an owner renting out his own timeshare.  That has been done as long as timesharing has existed.  There is nothing wrong with agencies like Outer Banks Resort Rentals, which has been in the business almost as long as there have been timeshares on the OBX helping owners with those rentals.

Owner rentals, particularly through the internet, are a drop in the bucket, as I have pointed out when you look at the numbers at the two most popular owner rental websites.  They do not cause any dislocation of the timeshare market.  It is a different story entirely when you look at the mass rentals by RCI to the general public, with II following on its heels.

Exclusivity is what made timeshare work under the Cristel deHahn business model at RCI.  Moving to mass marketing as the Cendent leadership at RCI has done is what is undermining it.  Exclusivity helped give value to the Achilles heel of timesharing - the times and places where there was more capacity than normal demand, whether from being deep off season or being in an overbuilt area.  You had to own to participate, and these weeks got people's foot in the door.

Yes, there are lots of things that overlap timesharing in the travel market - and always have - hotels, cruises, whole ownership rental cottages and condos, RV's, campgrounds, Club Med, air-hotel packages, etc.  The fact that there marketing now includes the internet really doesn't change the nature of the beast. 

As to which way the market is speaking, I would refer you to the article a few months ago in Timesharing Today by California timeshare industry veteran Byron Wiegand entitled ''Points Revisited''.  Wiegand had taken a wait and see position when RCI Points first came out, but after taking a good close look he says the jury is in and it is thumbs down.  He points out that in California, the conversion of resorts from Weeks to Points had virtually ground to a halt with most resorts still firmly in the Weeks camp, and that in resorts that had converted the brokers pushing member conversions were getting out of the business because those susceptible to conversion had already been reached. Points seems to have plateaued there as a minority niche type segment of the market.

I would also point you to Jerry Sikes recent column in The TimeshareBeat in which he points out that as many branded developed have switched to points, the market has shifted at about the same time to a higher percentage of resales, and that combining all sales, Weeks based timeshare was still handily outselling points based timeshare.

For market resistance to the points scheme, one can also look to Sunterra's European operation, the place they started their points operation.  In spite of selling only points to new buyers for many years, and trying to push existing owners to switch, a majority of Sunterra owners in Europe are STILL Weeks-based owners, not pointers.

You also seem to forget that in many places, a significant majority of timeshare owners - on the OBX it is about 70% - don't rent or exchange.  They own to use, and a points-based system is of absolutely no use or interest to them.  A weeks -based system fits their needs perfectly.  Points and rentals in timesharing are each a minority within a minority.









			
				timeos2 said:
			
		

> You are focusing on the micro – timeshare points vs weeks vs rentals etc - when the change is macro - how do people travel.  It involves timeshares but as a minute part of the total travel picture. Trying to keep timeshares as an exclusive, not overall travel related part of the pie just doesn't work.
> 
> Timeshares are now just part - and still a very small part - of the total options available each and every time someone chooses to take a vacation.  Trying to hold them out of the rental market is futile.  An owner can rent one, the developers can rent them, the Associations can rent them and the exchange companies can rent them.  You cannot turn off the spigot.
> 
> ...


----------



## BocaBum99 (Apr 11, 2006)

So, you agree that weeks is toast.


----------



## Carolinian (Apr 11, 2006)

Unless litigation or legislation puts a screaching halt to RCI's mass rentals from exchange deposits to the general public, they are likely to make much of timesharing toast.   Points depends on its low season members having access to the Weeks 45 day window to sell their own low season points weeks, which without that feature are probably even less sellable than low season fixed week inventory.  Points also depends to a degree on being able to loot prime inventory from Weeks through the unfair generic points girds for trades up for Points members.  Points will be toast before Weeks.

Those best positioned to survive are probably the sold out resorts based on a fixed week system with a solid majority of members who already own to use and located somewhere that they have a market for off season weeks other than exchanging.  It will also depend on management or HOA leadership that comprehends the tsunami that RCI is in the process of sending throughout the industry with its rentals from exchange deposits to the general public, and is quick off the mark to react and reposition itself away from exchanging.








			
				BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> So, you agree that weeks is toast.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Apr 11, 2006)

When the Chinese middle class discovers timesharing, watch out!!!!   You will see a rental market like none you've ever seen before.  The trade deficit is getting so large with China that they need someplace to put those dollars.  With timesharing, they can put it into real estate in small chunks.  That will be some tidal wave.


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## Jya-Ning (Apr 11, 2006)

BocaBum99 said:
			
		

> When the Chinese middle class discovers timesharing, watch out!!!!   You will see a rental market like none you've ever seen before.  The trade deficit is getting so large with China that they need someplace to put those dollars.  With timesharing, they can put it into real estate in small chunks.  That will be some tidal wave.



No, with the density of the population (which guarantee the information pass more quicker than internet), they will buy resell and try to rent it out.  If you think it is toast in exchange now, wait until then.

Jya-Ning


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## ragtop (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: I think resales have hurt the developers in a huge way.*



			
				rickandcindy23 said:
			
		

> In Orlando, we have lots of choices for trades, but the developers are no longer creating new places for us to stay...  They can't sell the ones they have!  What a horrible job, selling timeshare at retail prices.



Actually, quite a few people make >$100K a year on these horrible jobs.  And most of them are honest, selling a product that developers borrow money to pay for.

Certainly sales and marketing is changing as the internet takes hold - just as it is in residential real estate sales.

But it's a little early to be celebrating the passage of developer sales, like it or not.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Apr 11, 2006)

Jya-Ning said:
			
		

> No, with the density of the population (which guarantee the information pass more quicker than internet), they will buy resell and try to rent it out.  If you think it is toast in exchange now, wait until then.
> 
> Jya-Ning



We are in complete agreement.  They will gobble up all the deals resale and rent them out from China over the internet.


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## Jya-Ning (Apr 11, 2006)

Boca:

Misread your post  Must be the AMT tax effect.

Jya-Ning


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## Jennie (Apr 12, 2006)

Don't forget about the great impact the "Do NOT Call" laws have had upon the developers. It is much harder for them to find people to come to sales presentations


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## talkamotta (Apr 12, 2006)

My experiences in timesharing has been limited to using my weeks, trading in weeks only and rentals (in a pinch).  So far I have been pretty successful.  Some of my timeshares are Gold Crown and some are not.  I opt for semi off season in high density resort cities (Orlando) I dont do Florida from June to September 30th,  I love Orlando in October. Children (I have 5+5 grandchildren) only play in 20% of my vacation timing decisions, weather plays 50%. I like variety, the suite on a cruise and camping in a tent in the mountains. I have rented the Marriot Grande Ocean only to sleep in one of the double beds in the second room with 3 little girls in the same bed and the other bed empty. 
When things/times change and I cant get the weeks I want, I will change my strategy. The bottom line is that in different times of your life, vacationing will look differently. How we vacation and what we are willing to sacrifice or pay for vacationing  is unique to each of us. Isnt that a good thing??


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## Jennie (Apr 15, 2006)

But with all the cheap rentals available through SkyAuction, snaptravel, goverarm, RCI's Last Call, I.I.'s Getaway weeks, TUG Last minute rental board, and the excess inventory of alternate exchange companies like Trading Places, Dial An Exchange, San Francisco Exchange, etc........you could obtain the same vacations without incurring the purchase costs and annual maintenance fees of the timeshares you own.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 15, 2006)

*Re: I think resales have hurt the developers in a huge way.*



			
				ragtop said:
			
		

> Actually, quite a few people make >$100K a year on these horrible jobs.  And most of them are honest, selling a product that developers borrow money to pay for.
> 
> Certainly sales and marketing is changing as the internet takes hold - just as it is in residential real estate sales.
> 
> But it's a little early to be celebrating the passage of developer sales, like it or not.



Without developer sales, there are no new resorts.  I like new resorts, so I am cheering for the developers to build more.   Just not on my dime, or on the shoulders of my children or anyone else I love.  :whoopie:  Singing: I bought it on ebay.


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## Carolinian (Apr 15, 2006)

Trading Places' rentals to the general public (see Ask Trading Places on www.timeshareforums.com ) are only inventory from the HOA's at resorts where they are the management company, not exchange deposits.

DAE's last minute rentals are only open to members and you have to be a timeshare owner (or a vacation property owner who makes a deposit) to be a member, so this is not open to the public at large.  DAE does have a program where a member can put in a week specifically for rental, but this is not exchange inventory.

I am not as familiar with SFX's situation. Perhaps a question on Ask SFX would be in order.





			
				Jennie said:
			
		

> But with all the cheap rentals available through SkyAuction, snaptravel, goverarm, RCI's Last Call, I.I.'s Getaway weeks, TUG Last minute rental board, and the excess inventory of alternate exchange companies like Trading Places, Dial An Exchange, San Francisco Exchange, etc........you could obtain the same vacations without incurring the purchase costs and annual maintenance fees of the timeshares you own.


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