# What is the best way to get to Cuba?



## hvacrsteve

A few people I know have went to Cuba.
After hearing their stories, I would love to visit mself.
Anyone have any experience?


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## RX8

hvacrsteve said:


> A few people I know have went to Cuba.
> After hearing their stories, I would love to visit mself.
> Anyone have any experience?



From Virginia, drive south until you hit the water.  It is about 90 miles from that point.


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## andex

Been there 4x. Easy through canada same language. Do a search on itravel2000 probably the easiest and simplest way is pre packaged vacation. We rented a casa last year in Havana. There were a few Américain there at the same time. They were blown away by the Cuban hospitality. we were walking around with an expensive camera never did we feel threaten? Very safe? One warning do not rent a car! Check Canadian government warning on this subject. 
Google Jorge on trip advisor highly respect guide for Havana.


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## Passepartout

You have to go on a pretty much organized 'educational' tour. Spending money is restricted to travel. Here's a site that pretty well explains it: http://www.usacubatravel.com/ Read especially the restrictions on page 2.

Over the years since the embargo, many Americans have gone there surreptitiously from Mexico or Canada. They will visa stamp a blank piece of paper to put in your passport, but if you are caught, it isn't pretty.

Jim


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## persia

I have an Aussie passport as well as an American one, so I travel to Cuba on the Aussie one.  Flying out of Toronto is hassle free and the Canadians don't flinch at the passport switch in the airport.

Prices are relatively cheap for the Caribbean, the people are friendly and walking around is safe.


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## bogey21

If you are closer to Mexico than Canada, it is easy.  Just fly from Mexico.  Cuba immigration will not stamp your passport.

George


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## andex

this is the tour operator we used last year. Are actually guide was a Doctor. 
jorgeguide2004@gmail.com; jorgeguide2004@yahoo.es

here is 1 of 2 attachements: 
from varedero:
Varadero - Havana Day tours
I- (Old Havana & Centro /UNESCO Heritage Site walking tour):
General description:
08.00 am: You would be picked up at the foyer of your Varadero hotel to be transferred to Old Havana.
10.00 am: Meet your Havana local English speaking tour guide to start a guided walking tour of Old Havana & Centro. 3 hours
01.00 PM: Break for lunch at the following various options:
a- Full lunch in a private house for 12.00 cuc per travelers (re: main courses for your choice to pick: pork, fish, chicken, shrimp and lobster).
b- Lunch at a venue requested by travelers
c- Lunch at a venue suggested by the tour guide along the route.
02.00 PM: Continue with the guided walking tour of Old Havana & Centro. 2 hours
04.00 PM: Your local tour guide would drop you off at Havana’s Private Crafts Market for one hour OYO.
05.00 PM: You would be picked up to return to Varadero.
07.00 PM: Arrive at your Varadero Hotel.
II- Old Havana/Unesco Heritage Site guided walking tour and Modern Havana vehicle tour combination:
General description:
08.00 am: You would be picked up at the foyer of your Varadero hotel to be transferred to Old Havana.
10.00 am: Meet your Havana local English speaking tour guide to start a guided walking tour of Old Havana & Centro. 3 hours
01.00 PM: Break for lunch at the following various options:
a- Full lunch in a private house for 12.00 cuc per travelers (re: main courses for your choice to pick: pork, fish, chicken, shrimp and lobster).
b- Lunch at a venue requested by travelers
c- Lunch at a venue suggested by the tour guide along the route.
02.00 PM: Continue with the guided walking tour of Old Havana & Centro. 1 hour
03.00 PM: Board your vehicle for the Modern City tour. 2 hours 05.00 PM: You would drop you off at Havana’s Private Crafts Market for one hour OYO.
06.00 PM: You would be picked up to return to Varadero.
08.00 PM: Arrive at your Varadero Hotel.
III- Overnight trips: Please contact for details. Lodging rates at both: Hotels and private houses available.
IV- Round trip transportation rates as per vehicles:
a- Medium size taxi good for up to four travelers (re: vehicle type like a Hyundai Accent 2010): 180.00 cuc
b- Minivan taxi good for up to six travelers: 260.00 cuc
c- Van good for up to twelve travelers: 300.00 cuc
V- Transportation rates within Havana for the two hours Modern Havana Vehicle tour:
a- Vehicles good for up to three travelers: 15.00 cuc per hour.
b- Vehicles good for up to six travelers: 20.00 cuc per hour
c- Vehicles good for up to twelve travelers: 25.00 cuc per hour.
d- Vintage cars (convertible or not) available. Please contact for details.
VI- Guiding rates as per amount of travelers in a group:
See document attached titled “Tours”.
VII- Tropicana addition to any type of Day or Overnight tours:
See document attached as per their official non negotiable rack rates. This reservation is to be prepaid. Addition of Tropicana would provoke a supplement of 25.00 cuc for all transportation rates as per the return to Varadero after Midnight.


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## andex

It will be our pleasure to help you to see, learn and enjoy as much as possible everything that Havana has to offer to first time travelers.
I think that the best way to approach Havana is to consider ( re: with our guides or not) two different tours right away upon landing: I- A guided walking tour of Old Havana and areas of Centro; II- An entire Havana City guided vehicle tour that could be designed for one or two days.
TOURS
I- Old Havana:
Being UNESCO World Heritage Site, Old Havana tour will easily absorb a full day if not more. For this tour travelers will not need transportation. One particular site that should be considered apart is the Museum of the Revolution. If taking a guided tour of it you will realize that its real name should be the “Museum of Cuban History. It is indeed the best introduction for those looking to understand where (and why) Cuba is today and where it stands to be in the future.
During this tour you will be guided not only through the most famous and popular tourist’s attractions like all restored colonial times areas and squares (Cathedral Square, Arms Square, Old Square, etc), Museums of all kind, official galleries, shops, historical sites, Cigar rolling factory, etc but also (re: and specially) along the non restored areas where average Cubans develop our daily lives in the day-to-day activities. You will receive concrete details about our culture, way of living, daily issues and will be able to see and experience by yourselves events rarely included by other tours offered in the City (official or private ones).
The Old Havana and Centro tour is the most recommended for those staying in resorts out of Havana (like Varadero, Jibacoa, Cayo Coco, etc) planning to visit the City for a day or overnight tours.
Those staying in Varadero, Cayo Coco and other sites would also have the choice to consider an overnight tour of Havana. Such scenario should lead
to additional questions that I will be more than happy to answer; and arrangements can be made not only to offer lodging at private licensed houses but Hotels as well if need be. Transportation arrangements from/to Varadero (or Jibacoa) are an issue to deal with and there are different solutions. Domestic flight bookings are available also for those in areas far from Havana including all in/out transfers.
Please feel free to bring the topic to discuss your particular request as to provide more information on how the booking-payment procedure would work.
These are some of the sites to enjoy and learn about although the final itinerary of each tour will be tailor made as per the requests of travelers: Sites to visit in random choice Comments
Museum of the Revolution.
Museum of Cuban History
Old Havana Miniature Model
Historical Explanation
Bacardi Building
Art-Deco Architecture
Floridita Bar
Hemingway's. Cradle of frozen Daiquiri
Cathedral Square & Bodeguita del Medio
Walking tour through Obispo Boulevard (famous commercial area and old architecture).
Partagas Cigar Factory
Famous cigar manufacturing factory
Ambos Mundos Hotel
Hemingway's room until 1939
View Point & Old Square
Dark Chamber and View Point
Museum of Havana Club Rum
Miniature Rum Factory & Sugar Mill
San Francisco de Asis Square.
Visit sites (galleries, shops, museums…)
Plaza de Armas Square
Visit sites (galleries, shops, museums…)
Lunch at "Casa Emilio" or Microbrewery
OYO. Not included in tour
Castillo Real Fuerza
El Templete
Historical site of City Foundation
Palacio Capitanes Generales.
Spanish Colonial Art
Prado Promenade Area
Daily life & people watching
Walk through un-restored Old Havana streets
Visit houses by choice. Daily life
Central Park area
Daily life
Capitolio area and surroundings
Daily life
Galleries along the way
Obispo, Oficios & Mercaderes Streets
Garcia Lorca Theater
Palacio de la Artesania
Craftsmen Palace (Gov)
II- Entire Havana City tour (re: Car & walking tour):
Havana is formed by fifteen Municipalities from which Old and Centro are only two. It is a City of 2 million plus inhabitants widely spread as high buildings are only allocated in downtown Vedado (National Hotel area).
So those who would be interested in visiting the Revolution Square, Miramar, University area, private galleries, Hemingway’s Farm, Columbus Cemetery, etc will need to consider this tour. There are enough attractions in Havana as to complete a 2 days itinerary although a one day concentrated one could be also tailor made.
The main difference from the Old Havana walking tour is that transportation will be necessary as unfortunately we do not have a reliable (and functional) public transportation system yet. Your choices would be basically:
1- taxis to all sites (re: very expensive IMO);
2- To use a rental car to be driven by one of my guide-drivers. FYI all rental car agencies belong to the Government and rates for 24 hours are extremely expensive or;
3- To use the services for a private car and driver for the day (re: 12 hours) which I would provide on requests. Rates would include for 12 hours car, driver and all fuel expenses within Havana and;
4- Car used on a rate based upon hourly rates.
Rates for different options are available on request. Please contact for more information.
III- Vinales tour: Vinales Day tour can be also organized for those who –having no time to stay overnight in this unique area- prefer to enjoy it on a day tour. Please feel free to contact.
IV- Guiding rates:
We all charge the same when working ONLY as tour guides:
8.00 cuc per hour guided for Solo travelers
10.00 cuc per hour guided for couples (to be shared by two)
15.00 cuc per hour guided to be shared by 3 to 4 travelers
20.00 cuc per hour guided when the group is formed by 5 or 6 travelers.
25.00 cuc per hour guided when the group is formed by 7 or 8 travelers.
Note: We do not guide groups larger than 8 travelers although exceptions can be made in case of special requests (re: families, weddings, etc).
All full payments to the tours we provide are to be paid in cuc, in cash in hands after services are rendered.
V- General practicalities:
1- It is important to leave clear that our tours are intended to be all tailor made based upon the personal interests of the travelers.
2- I should mention that when for unexpected reasons or because I was contacted before by other travelers who booked my services, I can’t guide you personally, I do count with a group of very knowledgeable, experienced, English speaking, college graduates, professors and independent tour Guides that will put into practice any and every single arrangement I may have agreed upon with prospective travelers. So any confirmed tour will never be cancelled from our part.
3- Although the final length of any tour will be always in the hands of the visitors I certainly recommend at least a 5 to 6 hours tour of Old Havana. If I am not guiding personally a group, my recommendations are given to the Guide in turn to complete the itinerary based on the interests and/or aspirations expressed by travelers prior to the tour itself.
4- As a self employed tour guide, guide-driver and travel agent I can offer different styles and options. From a full time-full guidance guide-driver-facilitator giving services based on 24 hours basis for a flat fee to just a tour guide charging on hours worked when transportation is provided by the visitors.
5- When deposits are provided in due time, a written tailor-made itinerary will be submitted to travelers for their consideration. Any itinerary will be based on traveler’s interests firstly. There are various ways to be able to provide deposits which will be fully explained if necessary.
6- Those requesting my (my guides) services on 24 hours basis, including a rental car will receive a comprehensive document with all quotes clearly established by services and the necessary explanations on how the rental car process will work and be paid for. In this scenario a deposit to cover the rental car rates, first full tank of fuel and insurance will be necessary.
I look forward to your comments.
Best regards;
Jorge


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## Aussiedog

*We used InsightCuba*

Based on a very good review in the NYT we used InsightCuba for our trip over New Years. The tour starts with a Delta charter (737) out of Miami direct to Havana.  They take care of all the details with plenty of flexibility to really see the country.  

My DH is a total car nut and as you may know Cuba is famous for the MANY old American cars in fantastic condition - none built later than 1959, the year of the revolution.  I stood on a street corner for hours taking pictures for his car club. Unbelievable.  

Good luck with your decision and have fun!

Ann


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## deemac

*I did not know Americans could travel to Cuba*



Aussiedog said:


> Based on a very good review in the NYT we used InsightCuba for our trip over New Years. The tour starts with a Delta charter (737) out of Miami direct to Havana.  They take care of all the details with plenty of flexibility to really see the country.
> 
> My DH is a total car nut and as you may know Cuba is famous for the MANY old American cars in fantastic condition - none built later than 1959, the year of the revolution.  I stood on a street corner for hours taking pictures for his car club. Unbelievable.
> 
> Good luck with your decision and have fun!
> 
> Ann



WOW!  I learn something new all the time -- just goes to show "you can teach an old dog new tricks" -- did not know Americans could travel to Cuba.


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## hvacrsteve

deemac said:


> WOW!  I learn something new all the time -- just goes to show "you can teach an old dog new tricks" -- did not know Americans could travel to Cuba.



I believe Jimmy Carter visited a few years ago!
He is a US citizen.

Why would you not be allowed to go to Cuba?  We are the land of the FREE, and Home of the Brave!  Are we NOT?

If we are Free and Brave we can go anyway, we don't need to ask permission!


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## hvacrsteve

Thanks for all the responses, you all have truly helped me.


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## deemac

hvacrsteve said:


> I believe Jimmy Carter visited a few years ago!
> He is a US citizen.
> 
> Why would you not be allowed to go to Cuba?  We are the land of the FREE, and Home of the Brave!  Are we NOT?
> 
> If we are Free and Brave we can go anyway, we don't need to ask permission!



Yes, President Jimmy Carter went -- Presidents are allowed to do that.

See next/following quoted reply to you, and my subsequent notation after it.



Passepartout said:


> You have to go on a pretty much organized 'educational' tour. Spending money is restricted to travel. Here's a site that pretty well explains it: http://www.usacubatravel.com/ Read especially the restrictions on page 2.
> 
> *Over the years since the embargo, many Americans have gone there surreptitiously from Mexico or Canada. *They will visa stamp a blank piece of paper to put in your passport, but if you are caught, it isn't pretty.
> 
> Jim


 
Because of the embargo, as stated in the reply by Jim above -- I did not know American citizens were allowed to go via US borders.


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## Aussiedog

*Yes - things changed last August*

New rules were put in place last August.  It is so much easier now and although the Miami airport is not on my "favorite airports" list I still prefer flying direct from Miami vs taking the extra time to go through another country to get there.  You do have to use one of the specially-licensed travel companies if you want to fly direct from the US.  There are several websites out there that are full of helpful info.

Have fun!

Ann


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## tombo

If you go to Cuba and get in any trouble there is no one to call. If you get in a wreck or arrested for some reason what can you do? If you get robbed and have no cash, what then? Lose your airplane tickets? No American embassy to visit for help, no senator or congressman to call, you are on your own. 

It is a very poor country and not especially pretty from what I understand. My friends went a few years ago and said they were nervous the whole time they were there and would never go back. If you get sick or in an accident your health insurance is no good. There were armed police and military people everywhere. They said everyone from the maids at the hotel to waitresses in bars and restaurants were prostituting themselves because they were so poor. They said that they knew they were there on their own with regards to help from the mainland and if anything bad happened they might be stuck in Cuba for months or years. How about if you or a family member is mugged, kidnapped, or murdered? Who do you call? What rights do you have? 

Why risk it and walk around nervous and worried? Go to the Bahamas or somewhere else in the Carribbean where you are legally allowed to travel and where you can get help from the local US embassy if you have a problem. JMHO.


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## bogey21

Two friends of mine visited Cuba via Mexico a couple of years ago.  They told me they felt 100% safe and loved their visit.

George


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## eal

Cuba has free universal health care that is readily available to tourists. Their doctors work and teach all over the world.  Over one million Canadians visit Cuba every year, along with many many Europeans.  Yes the people are poor, like those in many countries that tourists visit (St Lucia anyone?) But they welcome visitors with kindness and enthusiasm.


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## ronparise

tombo said:


> If you get sick or in an accident your health insurance is no good. .



Didnt Michael Moore show us that the Cuban health care system is far superior to the US and that you dont need insurance

I know Canadians that are afraid to visit the US because they cant afford to get sick when they are here


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## Aussiedog

*I actually used their health system*

Looking up at an amazing flag display, tripped on the uneven pavement and gashed my knees.  The hotel had a fulltime RN and nurse aide and they fixed me right up for free.  

The trip cost included travel medical insurance for evacuations if needed.

Lots of Europeans and Canadians there.  The Cuban government does treat them better than US citizens (no commission for money exchange when using Euros, nicer airport terminal, no restrictions, etc).  I agree that it is not the kind of place you visit if you are looking for an infinity pool, but it is certainly unique with lots of interesting history, beautiful art and great music (and LOTS of vintage American cars).

Ann


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## tombo

ronparise said:


> Didnt Michael Moore show us that the Cuban health care system is far superior to the US and that you dont need insurance



I don't believe anything Michael Moore says. He acts like he is for the poor, the meek, the downtrodden while he bullies everyone, lives like a king, and gets richer and richer each year. he owns many homes, many cars, and hob nobs with the richest most famous people in the US. He portrays himself as one thing, but in reality is another. He was adamnently against the wealthy 1% when he visited the occupy protesters. A reporter asked him how he could be against the 1% when he was a member of the 1%. He said he wasn't part of the one per cent. The reporter said you have a net worth of between 50 and 100 million. Michael Moore who loves to ambush his unsuspecting victims with a camera got mad and refused to answer any more questions when he was put on the other end of the camera. He also got mad at Piers morgan for calling him part of the one per cent.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/25/michael-moore-repeatedly-refuses-to-admit-he-is-in-the-1-percent/

3 days later after lots of reports showing he had a net worth of over 50 million dollars he finally admits he is part of the one per cent.

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/28/8522718-michael-moore-confesses-i-am-the-1-percent

Yes Michael Moore says that Cuba has a better medical system, well at least until he can no longer tell that lie. Michael Moore is a POS. JMHO.

Michael Moore extolled the virtues of the government-run health care systems in France, England, Canada and even Cuba while deploring the failures of the largely private insurance system in this country. There is no question that Mr. Moore overstated his case by making foreign systems look almost flawless.

Here are more facts to refute Michael Moore. The WHO (World Health Organization) ranked Cuba 39th, the US 37th. Michael Moore says anything he wants in his films. Facts that don't support his views are ignored.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html


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## am1

At 37th and 39th there is not much of a difference.  What do each countries spend per person to achieve this?


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## andex

I know tons of people that travel there. If anything I strongly feel like it’s the safest place in the world hand down. And I know a lot of people who feel the same way. The place is amazingly beautiful, people are highly educated (free university), and Medicare is first class. I do agree that they are poor and that’s mainly because of the embargo! 
FWIW if someone feels insecure but wants to go to Cuba.  Keep it simple!! Book an all-inclusive vacation to get your feet wet. Free Shuttle from airport, to an all-inclusive resort. Book a few tours from there! Go on any trip advisor forum for Cuba. To get a feel for travelers sentiment on Cuba! My only advice is DO NOT RENT A CAR!! If you get in an accident your insurance gets voided and you are fully responsible!


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## andex

The WHO gave us a good scare with the H1N1 last year?:ignore:


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## tombo

am1 said:


> At 37th and 39th there is not much of a difference.  What do each countries spend per person to achieve this?



The Dr's in Cuba make $25 a month. It is easy to treat a lot of people cheaply when the physicians only make $25 a month.Would you go to medical school for 8 years knowing the reward is a salary of $300 a year? Would you attend an 8 hour seminar to make $300 in a week? The Cuban trained Dr's leave Cuba if they ever can get away. Cuba uses the military and threat of prison to keep them in the country. What a great medical system.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/04/health/04cuba.html?pagewanted=all

"While the rest of the country is suffering from a shortage of primary care physicians, Miami is awash with Cuban doctors who have defected in recent years. By some estimates, 6,000 medical professionals, many of them physicians, have left Cuba in the last six years." 

This is from a person who lived in Cuba for 15 years.:
"Been there for 15 years working in an embassy, Saw it for what it is. For sure it is cheaper, Doctors make abt Usd $28.month. Hospitals for the common folks are so filthy they are scary, Saw clinics and hospitals with no running water while the clinics for foreigners are some of the best in the world. Furthermore, there maybe a graduated doctor for every 170 citizen, but more than half of them are not practicing in Cuba but in Venezuela, Bolivia,Guatemala and some African countries. And the propaganda says that they are there for free. far from the truth. Venezuela pays for Cuban Doctors at the rate of Usd $10,000.00 a month while they make abt Usd $50.00/month. The balance goes to the Cuban Government paid by oil exports.
Give me a break. When you went to visit and inspect Cuban hospitals, they took you to the hospitals they wanted you to see. You would freak top see the real ones. No windows, no water, dirty floors and dirty operation rooms. No rubber gloves for Doctors or nurses, and I don't think the embargo creates that. They can buy the gloves anywhere they want. Cuba does not produce anything anymore. All is imported. And they guarantee their revenues through tourism and rental of educated human bodies.
Go back again and this time try to stay a month instead of 48 hours."

This is the medical system Michael Moore touts as superior to the US? Let him start making documentaries for $300 a year and see how many more movies he makes.


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## andex

Surprisingly, a lot of countries that have Free Medicare have maintained a triple AAA credit rating?? Cuba on the other hand has all the odds stacked against it (no pharmaceuticals from the US, ect) and is rated as a top quartile health care system by WHO? Life expectancy, DALE statistic, they have to be doing something right?? 
I do agree that the communist system has its major draw backs. Everyone on there is grossly under paid. I would also defect if i was DR living in Cuba! JMO


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## tombo

andex said:


> Surprisingly, a lot of countries that have Free Medicare have maintained a triple AAA credit rating?? Cuba on the other hand has all the odds stacked against it (no pharmaceuticals from the US, ect) and is rated as a top quartile health care system by WHO? Life expectancy, DALE statistic, they have to be doing something right??
> I do agree that the communist system has its major draw backs. Everyone on there is grossly under paid. I would also defect if i was DR living in Cuba! JMO



One of the reasons they have a long life expectancy in Cuba is because the people do not have access to unlimited food and unlimited access to red meat. They mainly have access to fish and chicken when they do get to eat meat. Obesity is not a problem in Cuba. The Oriental lifestyles with a diet of mainly rice and fish has a better longevity than Cuba without having an abundence of Drs. Crediting the abundance of Drs in Cuba with a long average lifespan is ignoring diet. Looking at the US lifespans and assuming that the medical system is the sole reason our life expectancy is less than some other counties while ignoring red meat consumption and over 50% obesity is folly. It works great on paper, but start rationing people's food in the US and see how well that works. If you think prohibition was a bust, try to shut fast food restaurants and rationing red meat in the US so we can achieve better longevity. 

Of course if red meat and all fattening food was rationed the slant would change with our liberal media. They love to show how much we spend per person annually on health care and put headlines showing that our longevity is not as long as that of some other countries who spend less per person. They point this to the failure of our medical system, not to lifestyles. If the government started rationing food which would lower obesity levels and increase longevity they would not credit the medical community with increasing the average lifespan, they would praise the government. 

You can make numbers come to most any conclusion you want. I don't want any part of the Cuban lifestyle. Not the poverty. Not the dictatorship. Not being hungry because i can't afford/get food. Not being trapped on the Island with no way to leave but on a raft in the dark. I don't want my kids or grand kids to get free medical school payed for by the government so that once they graduate they become slave wage labor indentured servants for the government. I will gladly have access to travel, unhealthy food, good wages, freedom, and the resulting loss of a few years of my life rather than live a few years longer in the Hell that being a Cuban citizen is. 

To visit Cuba and to spend your tourist money there is like buying cheap clothes made by sweat shop workers. Your cheap vacation is made possible by opressed people who are forced by the government and poverty to work longhard hours for almost zero pay. How can you still feel good about the vacation value knowing it is that cheap because the government FORCES people to work hard for virtually nothing? You are supporting a ruthless communist dictatorship who oppresses and enslaves it's people. Without tourist dollars the Cuban government would fold. Go somewhere else in the Caribbean. Support the local businesses of Islands where the citizens are free, not the oppressive Cuban government. JMHO


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## Ridewithme38

tombo said:


> One of the reasons they have a long life expectancy in Cuba is because the people do not have access to unlimited food and unlimited access to red meat. They mainly have access to fish and chicken when they do get to eat meat. Obesity is not a problem in Cuba. The Oriental lifestyles with a diet of mainly rice and fish has a better longevity than Cuba without having an abundence of Drs. Crediting the abundance of Drs in Cuba with a long average lifespan is ignoring diet. Looking at the US lifespans and assuming that the medical system is the sole reason our life expectancy is less than some other counties while ignoring red meat consumption and over 50% obesity is folly. It works great on paper, but start rationing people's food in the US and see how well that works. If you think prohibition was a bust, try to shut fast food restaurants and rationing red meat in the US so we can achieve better longevity.
> 
> Of course if red meat and all fattening food was rationed the slant would change with our liberal media. They love to show how much we spend per person annually on health care and put headlines showing that our longevity is not as long as that of some other countries who spend less per person. They point this to the failure of our medical system, not to lifestyles. If the government started rationing food which would lower obesity levels and increase longevity they would not credit the medical community with increasing the average lifespan, they would praise the government.



Thats bull there are dozens of countries with the same access to fast food and red meat(Why you hating on Protein?) that have MUCH high life expectancies then we do, also lower medical care costs....IT IS THE FAULT of the PROFIT DRIVEN MEDICAL SYSTEM, this has been proven over and over again by comparing the US vs. other developed Nations like Canada and Europe


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## Passepartout

This thread is moving ever closer to the political commentary area and away from 'How does one visit Cuba?' where it started.

There are numerous reasons to visit other cultures. There are countries who's government is at odds with ours where we visit. There are some that regulations make visiting more difficult. For a US citizen, Cuba is one of those. For our Canadian and European friends, Cuba is just another Caribbean island nation (with darn few of those pesky Americans). Nothing more. So follow the rules and guidelines and GO. Fascinating place. 

Jim


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## tombo

Ridewithme38 said:


> Thats bull there are dozens of countries with the same access to fast food and red meat(Why you hating on Protein?) that have MUCH high life expectancies then we do, also lower medical care costs....IT IS THE FAULT of the PROFIT DRIVEN MEDICAL SYSTEM, this has been proven over and over again by comparing the US vs. other developed Nations like Canada and Europe



First I eat a lot of red meat and need to lose weight. I know that those 2 things shorten the average lifespan (increased rates of stroke, diabetes, heart attacks, cancer), but it is my choice. I am a big fan of red meat.

Second. Nothing has been proven about Europe and Canada being better. Some things are better under their systems, some are better under ours.Wait times of 6 months to a year to see a Dr in the Uk and Canada are common. Canada has a lottery and lucky families who get drawn will be assigned a physician, those who are not drawn have no access to primary care. Canada  has wait list insurance and many Canadians come to the US rather than wait months or years for free Canadian surgeries and medical services. If that is better to you, move to Canada or the UK. Unlike Cuba you have the right to leave our borders anytime you want. I like our system better, but it is a matter of opinion, not fact.
http://www.mackinac.org/11153

Third. We are not allowed to get in political debates on TUG, and this will turn into an Obamacare debate and the thread will be shut, so I will leave it alone. You go to Canada, the UK, or Cuba for your medical treatments, I will be treated in the US. To each his own. 

Finally.  Ride you will climb a tree to argue ANYTHING when it is easier to stand on the ground and agree. Not helping you here. Find another thread and/or another debater. I will not be drawn into a long debate with you. I am done commenting no matter what reponse(s) you have. Have a nice day.


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## andex

LOL I happened to be Canadian what part of Canada is this in? If I need to see a dr this afternoon. I either go to emergency room, or to a walk in clinic. If I need to be admitted to hospital I will be admitted period! Now if I want to see my family DR, yeah I might have to wait a week or two! For a specialist I will also have a wait time. If its shorter and I decide too I can also take my money and go to US, Mexico, Cuba, Israel or wherever I want. My choice!!
My point is that there is often a difference between what the media feed us and the reality. Just like there is sometimes difference between what a Corporate time share sales man says and the reality of the resale market, the evil Cubans regime is no different. When i walked around in Havana I saw a lot of pools, parks, libraries, ect. They are distributing the little bit of money they do get from tourism, the best they can, back to the Cuban people. As a Canadian, I am very proud that our country continues to encourage Cuba. I can’t see the good in punishing the people! That’s my opinion and of every Canadian I know of that has visited this country. Mexico minimum wage is 5$ a day, even lower in Dominican!!
FWIW I have often asked how Cubans how they felt about American. So you know every Cuban I talked to, seemed to love Americans. Not pleased about the government embargo but didn’t let that reflect on the average citizen. I agree off topic anybody wants advice on visiting Cuba through Canada I will answer the best I can.


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## eal

Yes I'm afraid the for-profit medical industry has brain-washed the American public into thinking that universal health care doesn't provide adequate service. Canadians get to see doctors, get admitted to hospital and get taken care of after-hours in a very straightforward manner.


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## tombo

andex said:


> They are distributing the little bit of money they do get from tourism, the best they can, back to the Cuban people. As a Canadian, I am very proud that our country continues to encourage Cuba. I can’t see the good in punishing the people! That’s my opinion and of every Canadian I know of that has visited this country. Mexico minimum wage is 5$ a day, even lower in Dominican!!
> .



A Dr in Cuba makes about $300 A YEAR. At $5 a day an unskilled Mexican citizen makes the same thing in a week that a physician makes in a month in Cuba. A mexican citizen making minimum wage in Mexico makes about 4 times the annual salary of a Dr in Cuba, and the mexican nationals are not forced by the government to work, they choose to.  The average Cuban citizen makes about $15 a month, $180 a year. A min wage worker in mexico makes in 3 days what an average cuban makes in a month. Yes the Cuban government is doing a fine job of redistributing that tourism money back to it's citizens. 


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4465452.stm


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## Ridewithme38

tombo said:


> A Dr in Cuba makes about $300 A YEAR. At $5 a day an unskilled Mexican citizen makes the same thing in a week that a physician makes in a month in Cuba. A mexican citizen making minimum wage in Mexico makes about 4 times the annual salary of a Dr in Cuba, and the mexican nationals are not forced by the government to work, they choose to.  The average Cuban citizen makes about $15 a month, $180 a year. A min wage worker in mexico makes in 3 days what an average cuban makes in a month. Yes the Cuban government is doing a fine job of redistributing that tourism money back to it's citizens.
> 
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4465452.stm



You kinda have to think about 'cost of living' too in Cuba, Socialism(Economic discussion not Political) is a great system where people can make low wages and not have an issue with it, the major costs in OUR lives, Housing, Transportation, Medical Care, aren't things they have to worry about...

Think about it, the average doctor in cuba makes almost TWICE what the average citizen does...Our doctors in America make about the same, you can't compare two different countries by strictly dollars....you've got to look at percentages


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## andex

Aside from the bank account. It is what it is. There are many country with a much lower standard of living compared to Cuba!


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## bogey21

About 5 years years ago my Daughter went with a church group to help upgrade a small village in the Dominican Republic.  After she came home I asked her what jumped out at her the most.  Her answer was "the people are poor as Hell but are way happier then we are here in the US".

George


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## tombo

Ridewithme38 said:


> You kinda have to think about 'cost of living' too in Cuba, Socialism(Economic discussion not Political) is a great system where people can make low wages and not have an issue with it, the major costs in OUR lives, Housing, Transportation, Medical Care, aren't things they have to worry about...



TV's, Automobiles, computers, phones, I pads, appliances, etc, etc, etc cost the same thing in Cuba as in the US. They manufacture none of those things in Cuba and all have to be imported.The average citizen and even Dr's in Cuba can't afford a TV, a washer/dryer, a cell phone, a computer. Other than homeless people virtually every family unit in the US has at least one TV. Most family units have cell phones. In fact most have computers. Poverty in the US is like living the wealthy life in Cuba.

 The reason they have all of the classic cars in Cuba is because the only way to have an auto is to keep the ones from the 50's and 60's that were there before the embargo running. The majority of Cuban citizens (including physicians) can't enter this discussion because they can't afford a computer, an internet service, and if they could they would be jailed if they espoused anti Cuban sentiments on an open forum. 

If my food and housing was paid for but I could not afford any luxury items I would have an issue with it. In all of my years travelling to timeshares I have never met anyone from Cuba. I have a boat, but it is not to escape the US under cover of darkness, it is to fish for relaxation. I have a lake place, plus a deer camp, plus a nice house I live in. I don't have to have those things, but i would miss them. BTW, when was the last time you heard of somone paddling a raft from Miami to Cuba to make a better life for themselves? How about NEVER!

PS The only reason I responded was because your post was not about healthcare or politics, it is about economics.


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## bogey21

My friends who went to Cuba via Mexico left a lot of US Dollars there most of which went to individuals (underground economy?).  They also told me the Cuban people they met were great.

George


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## andex

More mis-information: I did meet Cubans in both Mexico and in Colombia. They were part of the resorts crew.  If you scroll back to post 7 & 8 you will see an email from a Self employed Cuban named Jorge?? This guy managed to afford a computers?  
They do love their American cars, the body are American but the parts are modified from imports like Hyundai, Mitsubishi, VW, ect. 
I will never argue the fact that we have a better standard of living than Cubans. We are blessed. Problem is, the people and peasant of cuba just couldn’t stand the Batista regime. God knows if it even came to mind to the average Cuban back then? That the Batista had such strong tie to the US. Looks like there grandkids are paying for that mistake. 

Bogey21 – yeah I also noticed that the underground economy was very vibrant when I was there. I found it very cool. It made me reflect on the flaws of communism. 
It was no surprise to me when I got back from my trip last year. To see in the papers that Raoul had just announced reforms in which he was encouraging entrepreneurship in Cuba, Cant remember the details but that was the jiff of it.


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## Laurie

A recent edition of RCI Endless Vacation magazine, Spring I think, has a short article about traveling to Cuba, under new relaxed regulations.


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## deemac

Laurie said:


> A recent edition of RCI Endless Vacation magazine, Spring I think, has a short article about traveling to Cuba, under new relaxed regulations.



Thanks for this info -- will try to find and look it up.   Found it!!!


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## Beefnot

One would expect with the standard of living being what it is, the life expectancy and quality of health care would be sub-standard in Cuba.  But they are not. Folks can run on and about how much doctors get paid there or red meat consumption and all that yadda yadda, but when it comes down to it, Cuba over indexes its third world counterparts in health care and life expectancy. I dont like Michael Moore, but he is right about Cuba. Also, whether he is part of the 1% is a red herring argument. He identifies and speaks for the 99%.


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## randkb

We love visiting Cuba.  While many are poor, they are wonderful people.  Those working in tourism do better because of tips.  On our last trip, i forgot my iphone charger and one of the hotel staff brought in theirs and lent it to me.


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## Maple_Leaf

*Casa Particular*

Check TripAdvisor for Cuban bed-and-breakfast (casa particular) in private homes.  A lot of folks really like them because you get a local tour guide (usually the owner or a relative) to help with navigation, restaurants, jazz clubs, etc.  It's worth a look.


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## Sandy

*Cuba article?*



Laurie said:


> A recent edition of RCI Endless Vacation magazine, Spring I think, has a short article about traveling to Cuba, under new relaxed regulations.



Can you help me find this article online? I cannot locate my hard copy of the magazine.
thanks
sandy


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## krasuz

We have been three times and if we could we would move there.  Yes it is a poor country but the people love life, it is a beautiful country and you could live there cheap.


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## persia

The one advantage of using a third country to travel to cuba is that you can keep all your souvenirs.  The US has some kind of limitations on what you can bring back and you'll lose those cigars in Miami.  

If you have only one passport and it's American you need to remember to ask them to not stamp it in Havana.


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