# Just won an eBay bid. Now what?



## jasenj1 (May 17, 2009)

The wife and I just won this eBay auction for a 3BR unit in King's Creek Plantation in Williamsburg, VA.

We live 20-30 min from King's Creek and so bought the unit for the day use privileges as well as getting our feet wet in timeshare ownership.

If you read the auction description, the seller did not include any closing cost information. They mention the resort transfer fee, and seem to indicate that the resort will handle the new deed, but they don't address "closing costs". My guess is that it is a private individual selling their unit and not a professional seller.

What should we be doing as buyers at this point to make sure all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed? And to possibly help an inexperienced seller along the process?

FWIW, we toured King's Creek yesterday. Free airline tickets were the bait. The developer offered us a 1BR EOY for $8900 + 10 years of ICE + 4 red ICE weeks + II membership and dues. We were impressed with the resort - nice, clean looking place. They have plans to develop out to the York river with some miniature golf courses and some other nice sounding amenities - of course, given the current economic environment, those plans may not materialize.

- Jasen.


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## gmarine (May 17, 2009)

The first thing you should do is confirm that the resort allows day use while not staying there. 

Then agree with the seller on a closing company to handle escrow of the funds and transfer of ownership. Have the seller call Kings Creek and authorize you to speak to them about their account. This way you can call and verify everything with the resort yourself.

The $500 transfer fee is correct. Closing costs should be another $275 - $400 or so depending on the company you agree on.


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## sfwilshire (May 17, 2009)

The listed maintenance fees seems awfully low. Did you verify that? I suspect they are stating an annual maintenance fee in spite of EOY usage.

Not so sure this will be a great trader. The 3brs at this resort always seems to be available for trade any time I look.

Sheila


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## gmarine (May 17, 2009)

The maintenance fees are about right per year of usage. KCP is very good at keeping fees down. My 4 bedroom lock off unit has fees of under $900.

KCP trades surprisingly well with Interval if you reserve a summer week. Last year I used a two bedroom to exchange into a two bedroom DVC unit and I have a friend who used his two bedroom portion of his three bedroom to get a one bedroom at Harborside at Atlantis. Good luck.


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## Aussiedog (May 17, 2009)

gmarine said:


> The first thing you should do is confirm that the resort allows day use while not staying there.



Hi Jasen - 

Congratulations on purchasing resale!  

I agree with the OP that you really need to confirm that day use is available, especially during the even years.  Otherwise you will be waiting a long time to get any benefit from your timeshare!

Since Williamsburg TSs are usually not great traders this TS will be most valuable to you 1) if you will use it yourself and 2) if you can take advantage of the day use in the even years.

If this checks out to your satisfaction you might want to read the TUG article on buying a timeshare for more specific info.

Good luck!

Ann


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## jasenj1 (May 17, 2009)

*Reply from seller*

Sent an email to seller requesting closing information and info on contacting KCP to confirm details of sale.  This is the reply:



> Hello, congratulations on the winning bid I think you got a great deal!
> After I receive your payment I will contact Kings Creek and they will send me a new owner info. packet.
> I will send that to you. You will fill that out have it notarized and send it directly to Kings Creek.
> When they recieve the packet they will send me the deed so I can sign it and have it Notarized and then they will write up a new deed for you. The transfer fee is $500. You can send it directly to Kings Creek or you can include it in your payment whichever is easier for you.



Does this pass the smell test? The seller seems upfront, just want to make sure we cover all our bases and do everything legally necessary.


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## Aussiedog (May 17, 2009)

*Missing a step*

Hi Jasen- 

The piece that is missing is your ability to independently confirm that this person actually owns this timeshare free and clear with no liens, no outstanding fees, etc.  If you are not going to use an outside closing company you really need to get that info directly from the resort and before you pay the seller anything.

Ann


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## gmarine (May 17, 2009)

You shouldnt revieve the owner packet from KCP until AFTER the deed is recorded. Its small amount of $ to risk so if KCP will do the paperwork then you could save the closing costs.

However you still should confirm everything with the resort directly. Have the seller authorize you to speak to KCP about their account and confirm that you can indeed use the resort when not staying there.


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## Larry6417 (May 17, 2009)

*Be careful!*

Dear Jasen:

I agree with the advice that you've received so far. I just wanted to point out one more thing. The eBay seller you're dealing with has 0% positive feedback for the last year! The one transaction he has over the past year received an unfavourable rating. If you look at his past transactions, timeshares aren't among them. If the seller is new at selling timeshares, do you really want to be his first customer?

The manner of his communication seems a bit suspicious to me also. Reputable sellers will break down the exact fees that you have to pay. The actual transfer fee is charged by the resort, and is generally a small amount (except for Hawaiian TS). The other closing costs are generally include thngs such as title insurance and the seller's fee. 

You should ask the seller some direct questions. What experience does he have selling TS? What is his actual fee? The seller deserves to make some money for his effort, but you also have the right to decide if the seller's cut is reasonable. Does his fee also include title insurance, which protects you?

If he doesn't answer your questions satisfactorily, then I suggest you pass on this offer. The TS you bid on is commonly available, and there eill be another chance to buy from a reputable seller. I don't want to sour you on eBay - I've bought 3 TS on eBay - I just want you to use a reputable, experienced seller.


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## jasenj1 (May 18, 2009)

Larry6417 said:


> If the seller is new at selling timeshares, do you really want to be his first customer?


Doesn't bother me. I have the fine folks at TUG and a neighbor who is a very experienced timeshare owner to guide me through. As gmarine pointed out, it's less than $100 (plus the transfer fee), if it's all done through PayPal or somesuch there is some escrowing going on already.



> The manner of his communication seems a bit suspicious to me also. Reputable sellers will break down the exact fees that you have to pay.


Agreed. All the listings I've seen from the reseller companies do that.



> The actual transfer fee is charged by the resort, and is generally a small amount (except for Hawaiian TS). The other closing costs are generally include thngs such as title insurance and the seller's fee.


I've seen other auctions with KCP having the $500 xfer fee, and gmarine confirmed it above. My wonder is if KCP actually does anything for all that $$$. Maybe they handle some of the typical closing duties? I'll give them a call and find out. $500 if they do nothing seems excessive.



> You should ask the seller some direct questions. What experience does he have selling TS? What is his actual fee? The seller deserves to make some money for his effort, but you also have the right to decide if the seller's cut is reasonable. Does his fee also include title insurance, which protects you?


As far as I can tell, there is no seller fee involved. The $500 really is what KCP charges. I did a Google search on the phone number the seller gave us and a condo for sale by owner listing came up. So I'm guessing the seller has some real estate experience, but maybe not timeshares.



> If he doesn't answer your questions satisfactorily, then I suggest you pass on this offer. The TS you bid on is commonly available, and there eill be another chance to buy from a reputable seller. I don't want to sour you on eBay - I've bought 3 TS on eBay - I just want you to use a reputable, experienced seller.


No worries. As has been pointed out, it's a pretty small amount (excluding the transfer fee) so I'm willing to take some risk. But it is a real estate transaction and I know that has a slew of legal strings attached to it. I'm not scared off or soured yet. 

- Jasen.


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## theo (May 18, 2009)

*Well said...*



Aussiedog said:


> The piece that is missing is your ability to independently confirm that this person actually owns this timeshare free and clear with no liens, no outstanding fees, etc.  If you are not going to use an outside closing company you really need to get that info directly from the resort and before you pay the seller anything.



Well stated and good advice. 

I'd  add that you also definitely need to absolutely verify and confirm that that the unit / week / season you *think* you are buyng is indeed exactly the same as what is being advertised. Suffice it to say that factual errors in eBay listings (whether innocent or deliberate doesn't matter) are quite common. An eBay auction for a timeshare is non-binding anyhow --- if there are any discrepancies in facts vs. advertised representations, walk away (*before* you pay anyone a dime).


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## jasenj1 (May 18, 2009)

I just spoke with KCP. The process is as the owner told us, and they verified that we have full site usage rights - all that info is spelled out in the new owner packet. 

Now we just need to get the name of the current owner so that KCP can verify with us what they own and get the paperwork moving.

...

Just spoke with the current owner. It's just someone trying to unload a timeshare they don't want anymore. They admitted being clueless about the process and that they asked the resort how to do it.

...

Called KCP back. They verified - as much as they legally could - over the phone that the owner owns what they said and that the MF is paid for this year. KCP is going to email me the new owner packet to fill out and get things rolling.

My suspicion is that the only snafu hanging out there is if the owner never paid off the property and there is a lien against it, right?  

- Jasen.


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## thinze3 (May 18, 2009)

If I didn't know better, that looks like the exact "house" we stayed in at KCP a few years ago. I loved the layout.  

Call a title company and have them do a search on this property to make sure there are no outstanding liens. Pay the $450 and let them handle the research, the closing and the recording of the paperwork.


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## gmarine (May 18, 2009)

jasenj1 said:


> I just spoke with KCP. The process is as the owner told us, and they verified that we have full site usage rights - all that info is spelled out in the new owner packet.
> 
> Now we just need to get the name of the current owner so that KCP can verify with us what they own and get the paperwork moving.
> 
> ...



My experience buying KCP was different. KCP did not send out an owners information packet until my deed was recorded.

KCP will also be able to tell you if there is any money owed on the property from the original purchase. 

Since it is EOY usage and 2009 isnt available your aware the next use of the unit will be 2011 ? Obviously that doesnt matter as far as day use goes. Good luck.


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## Patri (May 18, 2009)

It is every odd year, so you can't use it until 2011, although you could give it to an exchange company ahead of that date if maintenance fees are paid.
Yes, make sure it is paid off. You don't want to absorb that cost. And make sure the m/f is only payable once, not every year.
If you can use it during the day, that sounds wonderful. Good buy!


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## Bill4728 (May 18, 2009)

personally, What I think you  need is an estopell letter. 

The seller should request that the resort send you a letter which states:
-what he owns ( how big, how often & what season)
-Are there any fees owing (MFs or loan payments) 
-when it can next be used.
-(if the resort is doing the title transfer) outline of the title transfer procedure.

Then and only then send the money.


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## jasenj1 (May 19, 2009)

OK, things are getting a little clearer here. KCP does _not_ handle the closing. They just do the deed transfer and recording. The "new owner" documents they sent me are just two forms - one to gather ID info, the other is the "I understand ..." document.

KCP does _not_ provide a sales contract, title search or anything of that nature. i.e. They DON'T do _all_ the stuff a closing company typically does in a real estate transaction, but if I understand correctly, they do _some_ of the stuff.

So it looks like gmarine was right in his first reply.

That makes my $99 purchase a little more expensive. I was willing to absorb the $500 transfer fee (that seems really excessive - but it is on the "I understand" form from KCP). But I'm not sure I want to stack another $300+ on top of that for a closing company to do all the transaction paperwork. OTOH, it sounds like I got a good deal, and I'd hate to throw that away. I'll go check the FAQs concerning closing companies and see what I can learn. Anyone care to suggest one?

- Jasen.

P.S. Now I understand why timeshares sell for $1. The closing costs are what get you.


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## theo (May 19, 2009)

*Easy question to answer...*



jasenj1 said:


> ....closing companies....Anyone care to suggest one?



In my opinion, you can't beat Timeshare Transfer of Vero Beach, FL. 
$300 total. I don't know of any that are cheaper --- or better. 
JRA Closing Services is also very good, but charges separately for recording fees, usuallly making them slightly more expensive than Timeshare Transfer. I have used both, several times each, at one time or another, but personally prefer Timeshare Transfer. People also  speak highly of PCS Closings, with which I have no personal knowledge or experience. 

Above recommendations are based solely upon my own transactions and experiences. I am *not* otherwise in any way affiliated with any entity mentioned above, nor have I ever been so associated.

P.S. The $500 transfer fee   imposed by this facility is unusual and (comparatively speaking) excessive. It's also apparently unavoidable. 

Keep in mind that there is value and benefit to using a closing company of your choice, particularly for an eBay transaction. For starters, the closing company will serve as "escrow agent" for all funds (as little as they may be, in this instance). They will also obtain an estoppel letter from the resort, ensuring that you are not relying soley upon the representations and /or or assertions of the seller regarding all account matters being paid up to date. Finally, preparation and recording of a new deed (with attorney review) has some inherent merit as well. In my view, it's $300 well spent. The $500 transfer fee   imposed by the resort, on the other hand, is nothing but a form of "legalized larceny", at least in my opinion. That's *a lot* of money to just change a name and address in internal records. Many resorts charge no such fee; a "guesstimated" average is around $75.


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## jasenj1 (May 19, 2009)

theo said:


> The $500 transfer fee   imposed by the resort, on the other hand, is nothing but a form of "legalized larceny", at least in my opinion. That's *a lot* of money to just change a name and address in internal records. Many resorts charge no such fee; a "guesstimated" average is around $75.



Exactly. That fee is what is making this whole thing confusing. If the seller got things right, KCP prepares and handles the recording of the new deed - something a closing company typically does. And the transfer fee covers the recording cost.

As you mentioned, the money is minimal and I don't feel the need for escrowing the funds - something you pay a closing company to do.

What I don't have is the estoppel letter and a contract - Do I want to pay $300 for those?

It'd be nice if for $500 KCP would just act as the closing company, but apparently they don't.

- Jasen.


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## theo (May 19, 2009)

jasenj1 said:


> What I don't have is the estoppel letter and a contract - Do I want to pay $300 for those?
> 
> It'd be nice if for $500 KCP would just act as the closing company, but apparently they don't.



The "Catch -22" for you is that without a signed "release" from the seller, the resort is highly unlikely to (i.e., they simply won't) disclose directly to you anything about the seller's account status, so without that signed seller "release" an estoppel letter is likely going to be elusive -- at best. 

Even using a closing company, there will / would actually be no separate written "contract" created or executed. As far as the closing company is concerned, the contractual agreement is whatever terms have already been reached and agreed to between buyer and seller. While those terms may be confirmed by the closing company with both buyer and seller as having been mutually agreed upon between buyer and seller, the closing company will not actually create or execute any form of written "contract" themselves. That's not their job / service to provide. 

Are you quite certain that KCP (...a facility about which which I admittedly know absolutely nothing...) is not actually having their own attorney handle all of the new deed preparation and matters for that $500 fee?. As just a stand alone "transfer fee", $500 is an unusually high figure.


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## gmarine (May 19, 2009)

KCP does not do anything other than change the ownership information after the deed is recorded and collect the new owner details. The $500 is very high for a transfer fee but it is what it is. Its a source of revenue for the resort and one reason why the resort sells for so cheap.


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## jasenj1 (May 27, 2009)

*MF unpaid.*

The plot thickens a bit. We got the estoppel letter from KCP. Turns out this year's MF has not been paid + a late fee. That's $657.90 MF & LF + $500 transfer fee + $99 we bid = $1256.90. Our $99 EOY unit is getting awfully expensive.

I see a similar every year unit on eBay right now with 27 bids at >$500 plus $500 transfer and $525 closing costs. So a similar unit is over $1500 with over a day left on the auction.

Opinions?

- Jasen.


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## thinze3 (May 27, 2009)

*It does incluse use of the 2009 week doesn't it?*

You can either pay the 2009 MF and get use of the 2009 week or walk away, if this is not what was indicated in the auction. Most auctions will make you pay the MF if you use the week.

The 2009 week can still be locked off and both halves deposited with II. Most likely you can get a couple of decent stays with those 2 deposits.


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## Bill4728 (May 27, 2009)

jasenj1 said:


> The plot thickens a bit. We got the estoppel letter from KCP. Turns out this year's MF has not been paid + a late fee. That's $657.90 MF & LF + $500 transfer fee + $99 we bid = $1256.90. Our $99 EOY unit is getting awfully expensive.


Still not a bad deal  but if you are going to have to pay this years MFs then you need to get use of this years stay.  Maybe have them give you use of a week this summer by renting it from the current owner and pay them by agreeing to pay 2009's MFs.


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## Larry6417 (May 27, 2009)

jasenj1 said:


> Turns out this year's MF has not been paid + a late fee. That's $657.90 MF & LF + $500 transfer fee + $99 we bid = $1256.90. Our $99 EOY unit is getting awfully expensive.
> 
> - Jasen.



Ouch! You have my condolences. I think it was very dishonest of the seller not to reveal immediately that he had not paid his MF. The rule of thumb is that whoever paid the MF gets use of the week. MFs are generally due in Jan., so the seller must have known he was overdue even as you won your auction in May.

Why the rush? In this economy you'll see lots of TS coming for sale - with their MF paid. Why pay this late fee now when you can wait for another TS that's up-to-date in its MF? I'm not familiar with the area you're looking at. Perhaps there's another TS in the area with a more reasonable transfer fee. I've found that Priceline gets excellent hotel rates, so you could rent the occaisional hotel room until you find exactly the right TS at the right price.

Personally I'd walk away and get your $99 back. I searched eBay and found 1 listing (from cybernaut303) for an annual 3BR lockoff at Kings Creek for $299 + $500 transfer + bid (presently $1). As a bonus, you'll be able to use this year without paying this year's MF. This listing is limited in the weeks you can use (1-8, 45-46) while a similar listing floats 1-52 (present bid $97). You have lots of options!


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## Larry6417 (May 27, 2009)

*One more thing*

You have at least one more option I forgot to mention previously: You can ask the seller to remit to you the cost of the late fee. I don't think it's fair for you to pay the cost of the seller's negligence, but it is fair for you to pay this year's MF if you want to use the TS this year. It sounds as if the seller just wants to get rid of the TS's MF, so he may be receptive. If the seller has to re-list with eBay, doing so will cost him money. If you still don't like what you hear, then you still have the option of walking away.


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## jasenj1 (May 27, 2009)

We're not in a hurry, but this unit does appeal to us quite a bit.


It's EOY which gives us a low annual MF. That way we can get a REAL taste of timesharing.
It's a lock off so we can use it every year by splitting it. Or we can rent one side and use one side. Our family only needs 1 BR, so we can rent/deposit the better 2BR side.
The resort is close enough for us to really take advantage of day use privileges. The annual MF is lower than a local pool membership.

We'll try to work with the seller to come to an equitable arrangement. As was said, I think the guy is just trying to get out of the MF.

- Jasen.


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## theo (May 28, 2009)

*Huh???*



			
				[* said:
			
		

> It's a lock off so we can use it every year by splitting it. Or we can rent one side and use one side. Our family only needs 1 BR, so we can rent/deposit the better 2BR side.



I hope that you are not somehow of the (very mistaken) belief that that you (or anyone else) can "split" an EOY unit and then somehow iuse the other portion of the same unit in the "off" year. That just ain't so --- someone else likely owns that "off year" week and unit. In any case, it's still not accessible to you in the "off" year...

Maybe you meant that you'd split the unit, use one portion in the "use year" and deposit the other portion, then use that "deposit" to (attempt to) find something else in an "exchange" to use in the "off" year?


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## jasenj1 (May 28, 2009)

theo said:


> Maybe you meant that you'd split the unit, use one portion in the "use year" and deposit the other portion, then use that "deposit" to (attempt to) find something else in an "exchange" to use in the "off" year?



Yes, that's likely what I meant. I used the term "use" very loosely. Not "use" as in "go stay at the resort for a week", but "use" as in "figure out something to do with it other than nothing".

Again, we live ~20 minutes from the resort. We'll never stay there. We're getting it for day use, rental, and trading purposes.

- Jasen.


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## brianfox (Jun 6, 2009)

theo said:


> I hope that you are not somehow of the (very mistaken) belief that that you (or anyone else) can "split" an EOY unit and then somehow iuse the other portion of the same unit in the "off" year. That just ain't so --- someone else likely owns that "off year" week and unit. In any case, it's still not accessible to you in the "off" year...
> QUOTE]
> 
> I had not realized that you could not do that...but it makes sense.
> ...


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## Captron (Jun 7, 2009)

Some resorts will manage their inventory and let you use EOY lockout 1 part each year. It is not hard to do for a larger resort. My California resort (EY unit)will let me book 2 units in one year from their available inventory if I pay a fee and give up my following year use to them. This is different, but not that dissimilar to that. You could confirm this possibility with the resort. It seems they are receptive to questions.

I think the OP should wait, but the risk and the cost is his/hers.


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