# [2007] Trading Power of Marriott Resorts



## jannino (Jul 5, 2007)

I am interested in purchasing a resale timeshare for either Grand Vista or Cypress Harbour in Orlando and I asked a Marriott sales rep regarding the trading power of these two resorts.  The rep gave me the top 3 ranking in order of trading power:

1. The Hawaiii resorts (Kauai, Maui, Oahu)
2. The Aruba resorts (Surf Club, Ocean Club)
3. The California resorts (Palm Desert, Newport Coast, Lake Tahoe)

My interest in trading power has to due with the fact that if I purchase in Orlando (MGV or MCH), I want trade out around half of the time (almost exclusively within the Marriott system as they have alot of resorts my family and I like to visit such as Hawaii, Aruba and California) and I want to make sure I have enough trading power to do so if I purchase in Orlando.  If Orlando does not trade well, then I'd consider a resale at one of these resorts listed above.  In my reseasch on TUG, it looks like Orlando may be oversaturated, but MGV and MCH are among the top ranked non-DVC timeshares in Orlando and I would think that would give me some trading power.

Opinions on this anyone?

I am also aware of the rumors about Marriott eliminating trades within their system for resale owners by 2010, but I will have to address that issue in another post.

Thanks for all your help in advance.


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## gores95 (Jul 5, 2007)

jannino said:


> I am also aware of the rumors about Marriott eliminating trades within their system for resale owners by 2010, but I will have to address that issue in another post.
> 
> Thanks for all your help in advance.



Correct me if I am wrong...but Marriott does not currently trade within their own system.  All trades/exchanges are through II right??

BTW we are resale buyers thanks in large part to TUG!


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## gmarine (Jul 5, 2007)

First thing you should do is forget about buying direct from Marriott. You will save thousands,about 50%, by buying a resale. The only thing you lose is the ability to trade your unit in for Marriott reward points

If choosing between Cypress Harbor and Grand Vista I would go with GV because GV has lock off units which gives you extra flexibility. 

All Marriott trades go though II. Marriott owners have an internal preference where for the first three weeks after being deposited only other Marriott owners can trade for these weeks.

Platinum units at both resorts will trade respectably if you book a high demand week however I wouldnt purchase either of them for trading purposes. I would consider Manor Club platinum or Desert Springs platinum. Resale prices will be in the same range, less for Manor club,your trading power will be better and you can trade into Orlando Marriotts anytime you want.

You will also be able to trade into the Orlando DVC resorts, something you cant do owning an Orlando Marriott due to a regional block that Interval has that doesnt allow owners of other Orlando resorts to trade into DVC.


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## taffy19 (Jul 5, 2007)

jannino said:


> I am interested in purchasing a resale timeshare for either Grand Vista or Cypress Harbour in Orlando and I asked a Marriott sales rep regarding the trading power of these two resorts. The rep gave me the top 3 ranking in order of trading power:
> 
> 1. The Hawaiii resorts (Kauai, Maui, Oahu)
> 2. The Aruba resorts (Surf Club, Ocean Club)
> ...


Marriott has a shortage of resorts on the coast in southern CA. They have three in Palm Desert but the maintenance fees may be lower than at the NCVs.

PS.  Our MDSV-I traded for the Waiohai in Kauai.  We had winter season which was Red or Platinum today.


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## jannino (Jul 5, 2007)

gmarine - this is the first I have heard about Manor Club in Williamsburg having good trading power.  This is interesting to me as we live in NJ and as such, we could drive to Williamsburg if need be.

So it sounds like Orlando has low trading power with respect to trading with the Marriotts in Aruba, CA, etc.

Is there any other information out there or in TUG about the trading power of resorts or at least Marriott resorts??


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## taffy19 (Jul 5, 2007)

jannino said:


> gmarine - this is the first I have heard about Manor Club in Williamsburg having good trading power. This is interesting to me as we live in NJ and as such, we could drive to Williamsburg if need be.
> 
> So it sounds like Orlando has low trading power with respect to trading with the Marriotts in Aruba, CA, etc.
> 
> Is there any other information out there or in TUG about the trading power of resorts or at least Marriott resorts??


I have read several times that Manor Club is a very good trader and if you can drive to this resort, then that should be an easy choice to make. Buying a re-sale would be even better.  Re-sale prices in NCV are much higher because the resort is in such high demand. I remember going here when it first opened up and re-sale prices are selling this high now or just about that high.


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## laxmom (Jul 5, 2007)

I own Grande Vista platinum eoy and have traded to all three of the areas you have mentioned.  We have traded to Newport Coast in summer, Ko Olina and Kauai in the fall and Aruba in the summer.  We have never stayed a week at Grande Vista but have traded it and received AC's for it twice.  One I traded for Manor Club in June - the other for Gatlinburg in June.  Ad a trade to Hilton Head in August in there also.  These may or may not be peak times but with kids still in school, it worked for us.

That said, we have been really pleased with our low trading power. I actually think we will use our week next year to do the Orlando thing.


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## ffxjack (Jul 5, 2007)

*best advice-->buy where you like to go*

I'm a newbie here but I often see two mantras on the boards which I strongly agree with:
1) Buy resale
2) Buy where you like to vacation (not necessarily in that order)

It's interesting to read about everyone doing trade tests, lawsuits regarding RCI possibly renting out banked weeks, merits of renting vs. ownership, etc.  I know much of this board is devoted to trading and I do plan to trade periodically, but I know I will be happy with my TS purchase b/c I bought primarily to go to the resort I bought, guaranteeing my family a nice vacation annually at a place we enjoy without having to worry about many factors that we have no control over (the development of internal trade systems, trading power, etc).

As an aside, our Marriott sales rep in May told us that trading power was Hawaii, Aruba, then Hilton Head.  Not sure which "version" is true, but living in the east coast, a location within driving distance was important to us.


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## gmarine (Jul 6, 2007)

jannino said:


> gmarine - this is the first I have heard about Manor Club in Williamsburg having good trading power.  This is interesting to me as we live in NJ and as such, we could drive to Williamsburg if need be.
> 
> So it sounds like Orlando has low trading power with respect to trading with the Marriotts in Aruba, CA, etc.
> 
> Is there any other information out there or in TUG about the trading power of resorts or at least Marriott resorts??



Living in NJ you should definitely consider Manor Club. Maintenance fees are very reasonable at $713 and that includes 6 rounds of golf. The resort is top quality. You should be able to pick up a non lock off for under 10K and a lock off for maybe 2K or so more.


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## laxmom (Jul 6, 2007)

ffxjack said:


> I'm a newbie here but I often see two mantras on the boards which I strongly agree with:
> 1) Buy resale
> 2) Buy where you like to vacation (not necessarily in that order)
> 
> ...




Very good point.  That is why we bought an eoy in HHI and an eoy in Orlando.  We intended on going to Orlando more but the trades worked out too well.   With the choice of resorts, we drive to HHI and usually fly eoy to what ever trade we end up doing.  Have you thought of an eoy thing?  There are usually some out there resale as well as the every year.  Then you can have 2 home resorts.  It does only count as one week of ownership though.


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## jannino (Jul 6, 2007)

gmarine and laxmon - I hear what each of you are saying regarding buying at a resort you would use alot, and I agree with that concept.  However, while Manor Club in Williamsburg is a place we would visit, we would not visit it more than one time.  Living in NJ, I also have the option of buying in Absecon, NJ (near Atlantic City), but once again we would not go there alot and this resort does not appear to have alot of trading power.

In my original post, I was trying to gauge the trading power of the top 2 Marriott resorts in Orlando (Grand Vista and Cypress harbour).  From the responses above, it appears these resorts have a somewhat limited trading power. Absent good trading power, I think I have to look at another "home resort".  Since we live in NJ, I would stay on the east coast which would rule out Hawaii and the CA resorts.  Perhaps Aruba is the better place to purchase.  Resale figures support this assumption as resale prices are higher at Aruba than in Orlando.

Laxmon - the EOY option is also interesting as I could in effect get 2 "home resorts".


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## PerryM (Jul 6, 2007)

*Error on the cheap side...*

ARDA stats:

*“Of all owners, 35.8 percent personally used their own timeshare purchase during the past 12 months, while 47.4 percent exchanged or space banked it”*

I’m not sure that buying a timeshare, where you want to use it, is what the majority of timeshare owners are doing – they want it all; they want a great “Home Resort” and then to mainly exchange it.  (Kind of like lock-offs)

The problem with most Platinum and above Marriotts is that they just have TOO much trading power in II – that’s my educated guess.

If you want an exchanger a cheap Platinum Marriott lockout is probably your best solution.  Hoping to get a 2BR Maui exchange is pie-in-the-sky thinking.  If you do exchange it will more than likely be for a studio side – so put up a 1BR Platinum and you have all the horse power you need – doesn’t seem to matter which one – so buy the cheapest and keep MFs in mind.

Since II and Marriott make this all a secret I’d error on the side of being too cheap versus too expensive.  That’s exactly what I’ve done in our portfolio.


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## Dave M (Jul 6, 2007)

Perry's advice is sound. If you're going to buy mainly for exchanging, buy inexpensively if you can. A Platinum Manor week will trade very, very well. You don't need a Platinum Aruba or Platinum Hilton Head beach Marriott at $$$ to get great exchanges.

However, it's important to be realistic in your exchange expectations. If, for example, you expect to trade for a 2BR Maui Marriott week, you'll usually be disappointed, no matter what you are using to exchange. If you are expecting to trade for Aruba or Hawaii during Easter week, you'll often be disappointed. There are far more people with excellent trading weeks who want those choices than what is available.

If, on the other hand, you have some flexibility as to when and where you travel, owning a Platinum Manor week (combined with reserving and depositing the very best Platinum week you can get) should almost always get you great Marriott exchanges, even if the exchange isn't your first choice for a specific week or first choice for a specific resort. (That also assumes that you make your exchange request at least 13 months or so in advance.)


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## susiequeve (Jul 6, 2007)

I own at Marriott Cypress Harbour and have traded into Aruba 3 times in May.  I own a Sport Week (Gold).  We love Cypress Harbour that's why we bought there, but we also love Aruba.  No complaints here.


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## MOXJO7282 (Jul 6, 2007)

To me the biggest factors are your "travel window" and "scheduling flexibility".  When are you able to go on vacation? Only during school breaks?Do you mind taking your kids out of school? Can you plan your travel 12 months out? Or are you more short notice? Depending on how you answer these questions, should predicate what you buy. 

If you strictly follow a school calendar, you will need to buy a plat week somewhere, because exchanging is twice as hard, if you are trying to trade up from gold to a plat week. 

And if you are trying for a tough trade, as the locations you mentioned are, it is imperative that you plan 12 months out, not only to increase your trade chances, but as important in my mind is the ability to secure the cheapest airfare or frequent flyer seats, which are generally loaded at 331 days. 

Many people try to save money by buying off-season or a cheaper location, only to have difficulty with the trade and then, getting frozen out of cheap airfare or FF seats because the trade didn't come through quickly. 

I have found, that if you want to regularly go to the locations you mentioned, during school breaks, AND don't want to pay premium airfare, you need to pony up and buy Plat in one of the premium resorts. If you have a different profile, you can spend much less. 

Regards.
Joe


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## jannino (Jul 6, 2007)

PerryM - Thanks for the input.  However, I'm a little confused by your figures.  If 35.8% use thier timeshare and 47.4% excahne or bank it, what does the other 16.8% do with their timeshare?

All of the input I've received here has been very helpful.  By joining TUG I have been able to get somewhat of a idea as to how timeshares trade and specifically how Marriott timeshares trade.  Does anyone know of a better resource to see how certain timeshares trade (i.e. a listing of the variour trades that have taken place over, say, the last year or so)?

We are scheduled for a 3 day preview of Grand Vista and staying at Cypress Harbour for the end of November.  By then, I'd like to pretty much know what direction we will go with regard to a purchase.  One thing I have learned is that resale is the way to go.....assuming this new issue with Marriott locking out non-original owners does not come to fruition.  But that issue is already being discussed on other posts.


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## gmarine (Jul 6, 2007)

jannino said:


> PerryM - Thanks for the input.  However, I'm a little confused by your figures.  If 35.8% use thier timeshare and 47.4% excahne or bank it, what does the other 16.8% do with their timeshare?
> 
> All of the input I've received here has been very helpful.  By joining TUG I have been able to get somewhat of a idea as to how timeshares trade and specifically how Marriott timeshares trade.  Does anyone know of a better resource to see how certain timeshares trade (i.e. a listing of the variour trades that have taken place over, say, the last year or so)?
> 
> We are scheduled for a 3 day preview of Grand Vista and staying at Cypress Harbour for the end of November.  By then, I'd like to pretty much know what direction we will go with regard to a purchase.  One thing I have learned is that resale is the way to go.....assuming this new issue with Marriott locking out non-original owners does not come to fruition.  But that issue is already being discussed on other posts.



The other 16.8% is may be those who either rented their week, let friends/family use it or just didnt use their unit that year.


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## PerryM (Jul 6, 2007)

jannino said:


> PerryM - Thanks for the input.  However, I'm a little confused by your figures.  If 35.8% use thier timeshare and 47.4% excahne or bank it, what does the other 16.8% do with their timeshare?
> 
> All of the input I've received here has been very helpful.  By joining TUG I have been able to get somewhat of a idea as to how timeshares trade and specifically how Marriott timeshares trade.  Does anyone know of a better resource to see how certain timeshares trade (i.e. a listing of the variour trades that have taken place over, say, the last year or so)?
> 
> We are scheduled for a 3 day preview of Grand Vista and staying at Cypress Harbour for the end of November.  By then, I'd like to pretty much know what direction we will go with regard to a purchase.  *One thing I have learned is that resale is the way to go.....assuming this new issue with Marriott locking out non-original owners does not come to fruition.*  But that issue is already being discussed on other posts.



Here is the entire quote:

"Of all owners, 35.8 percent personally used their own timeshare purchase during the past 12 months, while 47.4 percent exchanged or space banked it, 4.4 percent rented it out, and 2.9 percent gave it away. Only 9.5 percent of time owned by all owners went unused during the last 12 months."

There is NO possible way that actual use of the timeshare can change if you buy resale - NONE, zip, zilch.

If a salesrep reports this ask to speak with the sales manager - voice your concern that the salesrep is lying thru his teeth - tell the sales manager that you intend to pursue this with corporate Marriott unless you get a letter in writing from him that states there is NO difference between Marriott sales or resales - when it comes to the reservation and use of the unit.

This is a serious matter that no one should just drop.  Who ever hears this rumor - challenge the salesrep this will quickly have the salesrep slither away.


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## Dave M (Jul 6, 2007)

PerryM said:


> If a salesrep reports this ask to speak with the sales manager - voice your concern that the salesrep is lying thru his teeth - tell the sales manager that you intend to pursue this with corporate Marriott unless you get a letter in writing from him that states there is NO difference between Marriott sales or resales - when it comes to the reservation and use of the unit.
> 
> This is a serious matter that no one should just drop.  Who ever hears this rumor - challenge the salesrep this will quickly have the salesrep slither away.


As much as I think I know about the Marriott system and as good as I think my connections are for getting current info about the Marriott program, I have thus far been unable to confirm that Marriott will not make some changes that are adverse to resale purchasers once it takes the Marriott-to-Marriott internal exchange program away from II as is currently proposed. (Don't take that as a negative. I simply have no current info either way.)

I think most of us here believe such rumors are an unfounded sales ploy by salespeople to try to close a sale. We also believe Marriott would be shooting itself in the foot to make such changes because one of Marriott's best selling points over most other developers is the health of resale values.

However, Marriott has the power to restrict reservations to (for example) 11 months in advance for resale purchasers or to restrict confirmations of internal exchanges to (for example) six months in advance for resale purchasers or to prohibit resale purchasers from confirming an internal exchange during a priority period reserved for those who purchased from Marriott. Most of the reservation and internal exchange procedures and rules are contained in the "Program Rules" for each resort. Unlike the CC&Rs for each resort, the terms of those Program Rules generally allow Marriott to make changes to those rules any time it wishes.

Thus, it's probably impractical to ask for





> a letter in writing from him that states there is NO difference between Marriott sales or resales - when it comes to the reservation and use of the unit.


That's because it would be easy to issue such a letter. That is, in fact, the situation today and salespeople aren't saying differently. What would be impossible is what I think you are really suggesting - to have such a letter state that there will or won't be such differences in the future. Because of Marriott's forever power to change the program at a whim, Marriott would never commit otherwise to a single purchaser.

Whether Marriott would actually make any such change to its Program Rules and whether, if it did, it would grandfather existing resale purchasers is pure speculation.


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## PerryM (Jul 7, 2007)

*Room on my trophy wall..*

I guess the way I take the 90 minute sales tour is different from most folks – *I take notes.*  When a salesrep learns that I ask for clarification on topics he/she brings up and that I want certain things in writing, they seem to sing a different song.

If any salesrep says something that I know to be false I jot it down and if we get to the point of discussing a deal I ask for the sales manager to sign a letter confirming my disagreements with the sales pitch.  If a Marriott salesrep ever hinted at discriminating against owner to owner sales I’d ask for it in writing – I know it would not happen and the salesrep now knows I’m not a bumpkin who is nodding his head with the spiel.

Whether Marriott is going to discriminate against all their existing owners and thus probably cause the resale values to plummet is something I doubt they will do – they seem to be too smart for all the hoards of lawsuits that will ensue.

I can see where all the existing customers are grandfathered in and none will be impacted with some new features that they and all future Marriott sold owners will enjoy – that I just know will happen at some point.

But for a salesrep, who is having a hard time making a sale, to resort to unfounded rumors, I’d want that guy’s scalp on my wall – right next to my Jackalope.


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## CMF (Jul 7, 2007)

*So what would Dave M. do?*



Dave M said:


> As much as I think I know about the Marriott system and as good as I think my connections are for getting current info about the Marriott program, I have thus far been unable to confirm that Marriott will not make some changes that are adverse to resale purchasers once it takes the Marriott-to-Marriott internal exchange program away from II as is currently proposed. (Don't take that as a negative. I simply have no current info either way.)
> 
> I think most of us here believe such rumors are an unfounded sales ploy by salespeople to try to close a sale. We also believe Marriott would be shooting itself in the foot to make such changes because one of Marriott's best selling points over most other developers is the health of resale values.
> 
> ...



So what would you do Dave if you were considering the purchase of another Marriott? 

Buy resale?
Buy from Marriott?
Wait and see?


Charles


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## Steamboat Bill (Jul 7, 2007)

Steamboat Bill would buy resale.....here is my order

1. Williamsburgh
2. Palm Springs
3. Aruba
4. Park City


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## PerryM (Jul 7, 2007)

*I hear the Gravy Train screeching to a halt...*

I no longer have any internal Marriott connections so here’s my guess how Marriott will implement an owner-to-owner internal exchange system:

1)	It will result in more sales for Marriott
2)	It will help Marriott sell the doggy Bronze and Silver weeks
3)	It will not foster hundreds of lawsuits
4)	It will be welcomed by the salesreps as a sales tool
5)	It will make any II exchanges increase 10 fold in trading power
6)	It will grandfather ALL existing Marriott owners regardless how they bought
7) It will integrate the existing reservations system and new exchange system

I don’t worry about our resale and would gladly buy a Marriott resale if it fit into our plans and budget.

The Marriott salesreps know less than we do and probably make up this crap as they sit around waiting for the next sales tour – they don’t have a clue but the rumors they, themselves, started.

My guess as to the new Marriott Internal Exchange System (MIES):

1)	100% Voluntary
2)	100% Points oriented (Probably called Credits/dollars since there could be confusion)
3)	100% Rental based values for each unit
4)	100% Transparent operations – no secret formulas or rules
5)	100% Owner friendly
6)	100% winner for Marriott*
7)	100% compatibility to new products – Marriott's 50,000+ hotel rooms, condo hotels, Destination Clubs, etc.
8)	100% advantage to owning at a particular resort and holiday weeks
9)	100% deed oriented
10) 100% new - will not interfere with existing exchange methods
11) 100% compatibility between Marriott's Points and cash
12) 100% NO impact on resale prices
13) 100% ability to bank and borrow Points

*This will allow Marriott to easily sell Silver weeks since they can be deposited into the MIES and there points are just as good as Platinum units – just less of them.  No problem – sell another Silver week for more points.



MIES would “sit on top” of the existing system and be voluntary – if you want to use II you can.  You get to reserve your unit 12/13 months out, deposit that with II if you wish.

The new MIES would allow “Home Resort” advantage of 12/13 months exchanges/reservations and 11 months to everyone else.

It’s that or a rehash of all the baloney II serves up each day; why start your own exchange company and do that?  Why not set a new industry standard that will encompass new products down the road?

But, like I said, I haven’t a clue what Marriott will finally do.  This will be thoroughly enjoyable to watch unfold in the upcoming years.  Until then forget about worrying over a new system that is being cooked up at this moment.  Cooked up by Marriott and the salesreps own version of it.

If Marriott does release MIES it MUST reflect the difference between a Silver week and a Platinum week, a Maui week and a Golf Course week.  So I’d base further Marriott purchases on someday the gravy train ending – no more Gold Summit Watch weeks exchanging into Platinum holiday time in Maui – I will be very sad on that day.

Notice that nowhere did I mention that a new resale owner can't be a member of the new system.  Resales only account for 7% of all new ownerships - why build a system that is focused on such a small irritation - focus on making the difference between the Marriott sales price and resales so small (15% or less like Disney) that real estate transaction costs are really the only difference.

Turn your resale customers into allies for future sales.


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## m61376 (Jul 7, 2007)

Perry, while I agree with a lot of your post, and am certain resale owners will be incorporated into the new system- not because of wishful thinking, but because it makes financial sense for Marriott- I wonder about your idea of a point system. Of course we are all speculating here, but wouldn;t such an uneven point system hurt sales at all but the most desirable locations? 

Part of the attraction of timeshare exchange is that 1 week here can exchange for 1 week there. Why would someone buy a Florida Orlando week, for example, if they would have to exchange 2 weeks, for ex., for 1 week elsewhere. The prospect of getting a week stay at a dream location, even if it only occasionally comes through, helps sell even less desirable locations. All the Orlando, etc. owners who can no longer exchange onefor one would be up in arms,which is why I don;t think your system will be how it finally plays out. 

My guess is they will continue to offer one for one exchanges. They will likely try to equalize season ownership, perhaps by a variable reservation schedule (for ex., owners at a resort get to make 12/13 month reservations, Plat. season owners get to make a request at 11 months, Gold owners at 10 months, etc.).

Of course, we are just pontificating here. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.


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## MikeM132 (Jul 7, 2007)

This thread is becoming technical. Once Perry chimes in, you'll get tons of how-to's to use the system. He really does know, but once you plan your vacation that way you'll need another one, in my opinion. 
Anyway, my personal advice is buy resale (not from Marriott). Look at maintenance fees closely if you are going to trade. Buying a Hawaii week to trade with a 1400.00/year maint fee is nuts. 
The order you were given seems right, except Platinum Hilton Head weeks have to be top traders, too. I have no idea how HHI stacks up against California, but I'd bet it might be right up there if not better. 
I agree with another post that Manor CLub is probably good to trade. Main fees are low, purchase price is OK, and any Marriott is going to trade well. Get a lock off unit to trade--big advantage. That's my short version.
Am I correct in assuming you want to go to Orlando about 50% of the time? We have a Grande Vista, and it has traded pretty well for us so far. We've traded the lock-off for October Hilton Head (all 2br units there). We've received a/c s for our Spring Break weeks, too. Maint is not all that high there,(I think something just short of 900.00 for plat 2br). If you're looking at Grande Vista, resale is about half price or lower. There are a lot available, too. You can trade into Orlando Marriotts pretty easily, but then you get all the II fee stuff.


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## PerryM (Jul 8, 2007)

*I can hear the salesreps now "Holy Cow!"*



m61376 said:


> Perry, while I agree with a lot of your post, and am certain resale owners will be incorporated into the new system- not because of wishful thinking, but because it makes financial sense for Marriott- I wonder about your idea of a point system. Of course we are all speculating here, but *wouldn't such an uneven point system hurt sales at all but the most desirable locations?*
> <snip>




One of the disadvantages/advantages of a point system is that is does NOT hide worth – it makes it know to all concerned.

Assuming that Marriott wants to introduce a reservation/exchange system that will last 20+ years and incorporate all the new things they might offer in that time span I’d opt for a Point System – but that’s just me.

How would the salesreps look at a Point System – one word “Holy Cow”; ok 2 words.

Marriott salesreps could now sell ALL Marriotts in ALL seasons.  Not only do they sell units at their home resort but those units can be deposited into the exchange system to use ANY Marriott – provided you have the points needed to exchange.

Marriott doesn’t need help selling Platinum Plus and Platinum weeks – it’s the dregs, the Silver and Bronze that take twice as long to sell as Platinum and Gold.  No problem with a Point system – just look up the rental rate and that’s the number of points you get for your unit.

It will be easy to sell 2 silver weeks for the points (The 2 MFs are a little harder to sell).

Could smart folks start to calculate the purchase price per Point – sure if they are experienced owners.  Ma and Pa coming in for the free dinner tickets will only know that they are now owners of EVERY Marriott out there – they can use their Platinum and Gold weeks at their home resort without exchanging and deposit the reservations to go to ANY Marriott out there.  Just look at the fact that 47% of all usage in timeshares was via exchanging.


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## Steve (Jul 8, 2007)

*I'm not buying this.*



PerryM said:


> One of the disadvantages/advantages of a point system is that is does NOT hide worth – it makes it know to all concerned.
> 
> Assuming that Marriott wants to introduce a reservation/exchange system that will last 20+ years and incorporate all the new things they might offer in that time span I’d opt for a Point System – but that’s just me.
> 
> ...



I think that a true point system...and certainly one based on rental rates...would make it MUCH harder to sell bronze and silver weeks.  

The way it is now, any bronze and silver week buyer can dream of the great exchange which gets them into a platinum week...their one week for one week in platinum (or gold) season.  If potential buyers see that it will take 2 of their bronze or silver weeks...and 2 maintenance fees (which are just as high as the fees for platinum owners)...it's going to be a much tougher sale.  

I think Marriott will not choose to base their internal system on rental rates.  If they do, I think it will be a disaster for them.  Why?  The very few platinum plus owners will be thrilled...along with platinum owners in the choicest locations such as Hawaii...but everyone else will be really ticked.  

Marriott cares very deeply about their reputation...and departing from the "one platinum week at XYZ resort can exchange into one platinum week at ABC resort" model has the potential to cause extreme damage to Marriott's reputation.

Steve


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## PerryM (Jul 8, 2007)

*Such a deal...*



Steve said:


> I think that a true point system...and certainly one based on rental rates...would make it MUCH harder to sell bronze and silver weeks.
> 
> <snip>




Let’s assume that Marriott does what RedWeek and other Point systems do – at least 1/2 the points must be used and the other 1/2 can be cash for any exchange.

Let’s use an example of a Platinum Ski Week and Gold Week in Park City at the Summit Watch.

Rental rates:
President's week rents for:
2BR  - $5,068 + taxes 
1BR - $3,283
Studio - $2,443

A Gold week for 4th of July rents for 
2BR - $2,303
1BR - $1,323
Studio - $1,113


I don’t know the current Marriott prices but resale:
2BR Platinum $29,000
2BR Gold $6,000

If we use a 60% resale worth to Marriott then Marriott’s prices would be 
2BR Platinum $48,300
2BR Gold $10,000


MFs for each are about $1,000 per year.


Ok, I’m the Marriott salesrep and I want to sell you a Gold Summit Watch since you can’t afford the $48k for a ski week:

“Heck, Use your Gold week to ski President's Week Park City – here’s how easy it is:

You need 5,068 Marriott Credits for week 7 - President's week.  A Gold week generates 2,303 credits and you can borrow next year’s usage for another 2,303 credits or 4,606 – you are 462 credits short and you can just pay the difference in cash or $462.

Think of it, you pay only $10k and get to ski President's week in Park City which costs $48k – for just $462 and next year’s usage.

Such a deal”

Marriott salesreps are going to have a field day selling Gold, Silver, and Bronze which now take a loooong time to sell.

P.S.
If Marriott doesn’t allow borrowing from next year’s usage I’d pitch:

“Heck, buy 2 Gold Weeks for $20k throw in $462 and you now ski President’s week.
Granted you must make 2 MFs or an extra $1,000 but you can pay the $20k with cash – no financing.  You probably will have to finance that $48k ski week and you will be paying about $30k in finance charges over 10 years – my 2 Gold weeks are a steal”.

Any Marriott salesrep who couldn’t sell this needs to find a new line of work.

P.P.S.
If Marriott allows rolling forward points to next year, here is the pitch:

"Heck, buy 1 Gold Week - roll the points forward to next year (you already have week 7 plans for next year anyway) and in 2 years your $10k Gold week gets you President's week in Park City".


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## JudyS (Jul 8, 2007)

Getting back to the original question of the best Marriotts for trading, is there any difference in trade power between the original Manor Club, and Manor Club Sequel?  How long is the platinum season at these resorts -- is there a problem with it being too long and including many lower season weeks, as at Newport Coast Villas?

Also, which do people feel is more _cost-effective_ for trades, taking into account both MFs and resale prices -- gold Park City or Platinum Manor Club?

Thanks!


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## m61376 (Jul 8, 2007)

Perry- I guess it depends on how they skew their sales pitch. You can sell anything with enough half-truths. I think, though, that the ever increasing MF's would be an obstacle in that approach. Not only would people be buying 2 weeks and getting an exchange for one in your scenario, but would be paying double MF's. Of course, you are right that many people would fall for that. I think it will be interesting to see if Marriott gears its program towards the educated or uneducated consumer; ultimately I think your approach would hurt Marriott sales, because while first time sales might benefit if the sales pitch is good enough, I think that once in the system (and people become aware of how much they are paying in MF's) it will generate a lot of antipathy towards Marriott and potential repeat customers who might otherwise buy another Marriott will look elsewhere.


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## m61376 (Jul 8, 2007)

JudyS said:


> Getting back to the original question of the best Marriotts for trading, is there any difference in trade power between the original Manor Club, and Manor Club Sequel?  How long is the platinum season at these resorts -- is there a problem with it being too long and including many lower season weeks, as at Newport Coast Villas?
> 
> Also, which do people feel is more _cost-effective_ for trades, taking into account both MFs and resale prices -- gold Park City or Platinum Manor Club?
> 
> Thanks!



I think the issue between the two Manor Clubs is not so much the difference in rade value, per se, but how you intend to use them/trade them. If you always want a 2 BR unit then probably buying MMC, which is a few thousand cheaper, makes more sense. MSE is a lock-off unit, so you can potentially get 2 weeks vacation for one annual MF. Another consideration is when you are looking to book those exchange weeks. If you can book last minute during Flexchange, then the value of your 2BR would be the same as either side of the lock out units, so you could potentially get 2 2BR weeks last minute with your MSE unit.

You can go to the MVCI website to see the dates of the seasons. As with many other places, the better trading weeks during Platinum season are less than the length of the season. However, there are enough good trading weeks that with weekly perseverance in making your reservation you should get one. If you read the posts about nabbing the best week (4th of July week), many were successful. A few weren't, but posted getting the following week.

Due to the uncertainty of Marriott's internal trading system looming in the future, my impression of the various posts is that Platinum may be a plus regardless of where you own. I doubt they will limit Plat. to Plat. exchanges, but my guess is that Plat. owners will have some advantage across the board, whether it be the ability to request another resort earlier or some other system. When choosing between Plat. Manor or Gold Park City, if you are buying purely for trading, I'd opt for the Platinum week. Of course, if you would use one at least some years that should be a major consideration.


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## PerryM (Jul 8, 2007)

m61376 said:


> Perry- *I guess it depends on how they skew their sales pitch.* You can sell anything with enough half-truths. I think, though, that the ever increasing MF's would be an obstacle in that approach. Not only would people be buying 2 weeks and getting an exchange for one in your scenario, but would be paying double MF's. Of course, you are right that many people would fall for that. I think it will be interesting to see if Marriott gears its program towards the educated or uneducated consumer; ultimately I think your approach would hurt Marriott sales, because while first time sales might benefit if the sales pitch is good enough, I think that once in the system (and people become aware of how much they are paying in MF's) it will generate a lot of antipathy towards Marriott and potential repeat customers who might otherwise buy another Marriott will look elsewhere.




This is how many timeshare systems work - WorldMark, FairField, Disney, IntraWest, etc.  Banking and borrowing are key parts of a Point System.

This ONLY has relevance if the owner want's to use the internal exchange system - they can reserve a week the normal way and use it in II and since there will be so few Marriott units in II the trading power will explode.

There are no half-truths here - just maximizing a Point System to benefit Marriott and the owners.

P.S.
Exchange systems have nothing to do with the purchase price or maintenance fees of a unit - it's all about establishing "worth" and providing a means for the fair exchange of "Worth".  In the timeshare world "Worth" is very simple to measure - it's the rental price that someone who has nothing to do with the timeshare is willing to pay.

A Point System allows "Worth" to become a currency and thus totally changes how folks can use their "Worth".


Marriott initially decided it didn't want any part of "Worth" of their units - they dumped owner to owner exchanged into II.  If Marriott does introduce their own exchange system they can use "Worth" as an unbelievably powerful sales tool.


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## Kazakie (Jul 8, 2007)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Steamboat Bill would buy resale.....here is my order
> 
> 1. Williamsburgh
> 2. Palm Springs
> ...



All Platinum?

I'm not sure i want a ski season (and the maint fees) for trading...


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## Kazakie (Jul 8, 2007)

jannino said:


> My interest in trading power has to due with the fact that if I purchase in Orlando (MGV or MCH), I want trade out around half of the time (almost exclusively within the Marriott system as they have alot of resorts my family and I like to visit such as Hawaii, Aruba and California) and I want to make sure I have enough trading power to do so if I purchase in Orlando.  If Orlando does not trade well, then I'd consider a resale at one of these resorts listed above.  In my reseasch on TUG, it looks like Orlando may be oversaturated, but MGV and MCH are among the top ranked non-DVC timeshares in Orlando and I would think that would give me some trading power.



Trading power is part of the equation, part of it is how early you put in your request.  If you bank a 2br at Marriott Maui, and put in a request 6 months out, I'm not sure you’re going to get what you want (if it's a high demand week).

It also depends on if you're looking to go in the off-season (Aruba during Gold season is really easy to get - that's been nabbed with off-season ski weeks).  The more you travel in the off-season the less relevant your trading power or request duration is.


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## PerryM (Jul 8, 2007)

*12 Gage or 9mm?*



Kazakie said:


> All Platinum?
> 
> I'm not sure i want a ski season (and the maint fees) for trading...



If someone wants to exchange their Marriott for something else, be it a Marriott or another unit, they need something with enough Trading Power (TP).  TP is an interesting subject – it’s all top secret and not a living soul, who hasn’t signed an II Non Disclosure Agreement, knows exactly how TP works – we can only guess.

This would be like going duck hunting and you had a choice of buying a 12 gage shotgun or a 9mm handgun.  You need to consider the game you want to bag and bring something that stands a chance of bagging it.

*In the Marriott system you should be buying the cheapest Platinum 2BR lock-off with the cheapest maintenance fees – that’s the biggest bang for the buck.*  This is for exchanges more than 59 days away.

*If you only want to exchange in the II 59-day window then you buy the cheapest 2BR lock-off Marriott for the cheapest MFs.*  A Bronze week will do just fine.

Each has different TP and each is shooting at different game.

A portfolio of Marriott’s can handle a wide variety of targets for various occasions.

P.S.
If Marriott does introduce an owner-to-owner internal exchange system I expect the 24-day Marriott only window to be removed from II.  That means that in II Marriott's have no priority to bag other Marriotts.  This is the way it should have been all along.  The developer has trampled into an area they should have never been allowed access to - the exchange of reservations among timeshare owners.

This is just one of many instances where there is NO level playing field among timeshare owners in II.


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## JimC (Jul 8, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Here is the entire quote:
> 
> "Of all owners, 35.8 percent personally used their own timeshare purchase during the past 12 months, while 47.4 percent exchanged or space banked it, 4.4 percent rented it out, and 2.9 percent gave it away. Only 9.5 percent of time owned by all owners went unused during the last 12 months."....




I am shocked that 9.5% of time goes unused.


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## JudyS (Jul 8, 2007)

JimC said:


> I am shocked that 9.5% of time goes unused.


I'd expect it to be higher, actually.  A lot of owners get talked into buying something that they really don't need, and maybe can't even use.


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## PerryM (Jul 8, 2007)

JimC said:


> I am shocked that 9.5% of time goes unused.



It's been reported, not in writing, that 25% of all WorldMark credits expire worthless - the owners never made reservations or got II or RCI reservations or even rented the credits for 6 cents each to other WM owners and thus paying for their MFs.


10% is probably a good number - 90% of timeshare owners found great usage of their investment.

Just a single item like divorce (That's a timeshare pun) which happens to 50% of all married couples and thus mucks up a timeshare for years to come has little impact upon usage.


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## JudyS (Jul 8, 2007)

m61376 said:


> I think the issue between the two Manor Clubs is not so much the difference in rade value, per se, but how you intend to use them/trade them. If you always want a 2 BR unit then probably buying MMC, which is a few thousand cheaper, makes more sense. MSE is a lock-off unit...
> You can go to the MVCI website to see the dates of the seasons....
> ...When choosing between Plat. Manor or Gold Park City, if you are buying purely for trading, I'd opt for the Platinum week. Of course, if you would use one at least some years that should be a major consideration.


Thanks very much!  So, it sounds like you are saying that MMC and MSE would have equal trading power for the same-size units, but that MSE has lock-offs and MMC doesn't.  Is that right? 

I hadn't realized that non-owners could get season information on the MVCI website, but now that I know they can, I looked harder and there it is!  (For anyone else reading this, you go to the page for the resort you're interested in, and there is a link at the bottom for the resort's calendar.)  There is only one resort listed for Williamsburg, so I'm assuming that includes MMC and MSE, and that they both have the same seasons.  (Oddly enough, the two Park City resorts have difference seasons, with only Summit Watch having a bronze season.  Is Summit Watch is an older resort, with Marriott changing their sales strategy for Mountainside?)  Boy, Marriott likes to make those Platinum seasons as long as it can!

As for which resort to use for trading, I figured that Williamsburg Platinum should trade better than Park City Gold, I'm just assuming Williamsburg Platinum would cost more to buy (at least comparing lock-offs to lock-offs -- I love lock-offs), so I'm wondering if the extra trade power is worth the extra cost.


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## JudyS (Jul 8, 2007)

JimC said:


> I am shocked that 9.5% of time goes unused.


Hmmm... now that I think about it, the real amount of space that goes unused _would _be higher than this figure, since "unused time" would also include some fraction of the 47% of timeshare weeks that get deposited with exchange companies.  I wonder what proportion of RCI depositors end up with nothing for their weeks?  (I've seen a figure that 96% of ongoing requests end up being filled with _something_, but I'll bet most credits that expire unused weren't part of an ongoing search.)


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## m61376 (Jul 8, 2007)

PerryM said:


> This is how many timeshare systems work - WorldMark, FairField, Disney, IntraWest, etc.  Banking and borrowing are key parts of a Point System.


True, Perry, but most of these others have similar values regardless of home resort, don't they, so that some owners aren't forced to give up 2 weeks to get one elsewhere? Time will tell who's right on this (and I acknowledge that you have a lot more expertise here than I do) but I just can't see Marriott telling Manor Club Plat. owners, for example, that they have to give up 2 weeks of use to go to Aruba over the winter or Hawaii, both of which probably rent for about double what Manor Club does. 

Personally, I think there would be so many angry owners who would never buy another Marriott that they would be shooting themselves in the foot. While it is true that your proposed system would equalize things wrt purchase price and trading value, letting the fair market really dictate trade value (since trade value would be determined by what others are willing to pay to rent daily at the resort), I think it would only be good for sales at high end resorts. 

Marriott has to remain competitive in each locale. For example, when they sell in Cancun they will be competing with the Royals which are considered, by many, to be comparable more or less (less in the way of furnishings, more in the way of service). Their competition helps determine their pricing, both for selling and renting units. Likely Cancun daily rates will not be as high as some others are; how will they sell those units it buyers won't be able to get a one to one trade to the Caribbean or Hawaii? True, they can still trade through II, but they will be losing the advantage to trade to other Marriotts, which is why many, if not most, Marriott owners buy Marriott in the first place.


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## PerryM (Jul 8, 2007)

*Insanity apparently works just fine in II*



JudyS said:


> Thanks very much!  So, it sounds like you are saying that MMC and MSE would have equal trading power for the same-size units, but that MSE has lock-offs and MMC doesn't.  Is that right?
> 
> I hadn't realized that non-owners could get season information on the MVCI website, but now that I know they can, I looked harder and there it is!  (For anyone else reading this, you go to the page for the resort you're interested in, and there is a link at the bottom for the resort's calendar.)  There is only one resort listed for Williamsburg, so I'm assuming that includes MMC and MSE, and that they both have the same seasons.  (Oddly enough, the two Park City resorts have difference seasons, with only Summit Watch having a bronze season.  Is Summit Watch is an older resort, with Marriott changing their sales strategy for Mountainside?)  Boy, Marriott likes to make those Platinum seasons as long as it can!
> 
> As for which resort to use for trading, I figured that Williamsburg Platinum should trade better than Park City Gold, I'm just assuming Williamsburg Platinum would cost more to buy (at least comparing lock-offs to lock-offs -- I love lock-offs), *so I'm wondering if the extra trade power is worth the extra cost*.




Ahhh, the barter types of exchanges (Weeks) with all their secret formulas and ever changing TP (by the minute) forces the person with just 2 weeks of vacation to error on the side of buying too much of a timeshare.

I have personally exchanged a Gold Summit Watch for a holiday week in Maui Ocean Club TWICE now (All Platinum weeks there).  This is insanity but that's what II is based upon - insanity.  I placed those two searches 8 and 10 months out and got filled 6 - 8 months ahead of check-in.  This was NOT a 59-day exchange.

So I can tell folks that II and Marriott allow Gold to Platinum upgrades.

Do you buy a Gold or a Platinum week?  Good question and I'm assuming that if some Platinum Marriott owner was ahead of me they would have taken my trades.  Is this fair to the other II members - HELL NO!  They never got to Maui even with a Westin or Disney - I got to Maui with a Gold Marriott week - this is the kind of logic we are trying to figure out when we buy a timeshare these days - insanity.


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## PerryM (Jul 8, 2007)

m61376 said:


> True, Perry, but most of these others have similar values regardless of home resort, don't they, so that some owners aren't forced to give up 2 weeks to get one elsewhere? Time will tell who's right on this (and I acknowledge that you have a lot more expertise here than I do) but I just can't see Marriott telling Manor Club Plat. owners, for example, that they have to give up 2 weeks of use to go to Aruba over the winter or Hawaii, both of which probably rent for about double what Manor Club does.
> 
> Personally, I think there would be so many angry owners who would never buy another Marriott that they would be shooting themselves in the foot. While it is true that your proposed system would equalize things wrt purchase price and trading value, letting the fair market really dictate trade value (since trade value would be determined by what others are willing to pay to rent daily at the resort), I think it would only be good for sales at high end resorts.
> 
> Marriott has to remain competitive in each locale. For example, when they sell in Cancun they will be competing with the Royals which are considered, by many, to be comparable more or less (less in the way of furnishings, more in the way of service). Their competition helps determine their pricing, both for selling and renting units. Likely Cancun daily rates will not be as high as some others are; how will they sell those units it buyers won't be able to get a one to one trade to the Caribbean or Hawaii? True, they can still trade through II, but they will be losing the advantage to trade to other Marriotts, which is why many, if not most, Marriott owners buy Marriott in the first place.




I must be honest here - I doubt that Marriott will ever adopt a Point Based Exchange System - so no one really needs to worry.  It's just going to be a rehash of II but with probably much higher fees.

One can dream however...


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## Kazakie (Jul 8, 2007)

PerryM said:


> I have personally exchanged a Gold Summit Watch for a holiday week in Maui Ocean Club TWICE now (All Platinum weeks there).  This is insanity but that's what II is based upon - insanity.  I placed those two searches 8 and 10 months out and got filled 6 - 8 months ahead of check-in.  This was NOT a 59-day exchange.



II has their own seasons (red, etc) - so i'm not sure they match up 1 for 1 with marriott, and it's possible to bank a high demand Gold season (4th of July) at Summit Watch which has higher demand than a Platinum week at Marriott Maui (Sept - Dec, excluding holidays - which should be Gold season).

Did you traded into 1br/2ba units at Maui (using a 1br/1ba unit to trade).

But if a higher demanded marriott week was in front of you, i'm sure they would have gotten the week rather than you - so yes, you can "upgrade" when there's no one else in front of you.  Just like Marriott won't upgrade a Platinum member if they have someone willing to pay for that upgraded room.


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## PerryM (Jul 8, 2007)

*II is located in the Twilight Zone...*



Kazakie said:


> II has their own seasons (red, etc) - so i'm not sure they match up 1 for 1 with marriott, and it's possible to bank a high demand Gold season (4th of July) at Summit Watch which has higher demand than a Platinum week at Marriott Maui (Sept - Dec, excluding holidays - which should be Gold season).
> 
> Did you traded into 1br/2ba units at Maui (using a 1br/1ba unit to trade).
> 
> But if a higher demanded marriott week was in front of you, i'm sure they would have gotten the week rather than you - so yes, you can "upgrade" when there's no one else in front of you.  Just like Marriott won't upgrade a Platinum member if they have someone willing to pay for that upgraded room.




II's color scheme is exactly that - a scheme; it means nothing.

II ONLY cares about historical supply and demand.  (ok, those comment cards, if bad enough, probably weigh in somewhere)  They assign an internal Point value (The infamous Trading Power- their Week based exchange system is still Point driven) to ALL units deposited.  We don't know what that numerical value is and it changes all the time.

II only cares about making exchanges - it's Marriott that gave the go ahead to exchange a unit that cost me $5,500 to buy with one they sell for $55,000.


Both exchanges were for Platinum (Red season in II) studio Maui Ocean Clubs.  I split the 2BR Gold (Red season in II) into a 1BR and a studio and snagged the 2 Maui's.

The Maui weeks were 4th of July week and President's week - hardly an off time in Maui.  The Gold Summit Watch was 4th of July.


Don't believe for a second that my Gold Summit Watch should have ever snagged a Maui week - for any off season you can mention.

But this is exactly why I love the inefficiencies in II and Marriott - they let you do things with your money that should only happen in the Twilight Zone.


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## Steve (Jul 8, 2007)

m61376 said:


> True, Perry, but most of these others have similar values regardless of home resort, don't they, so that some owners aren't forced to give up 2 weeks to get one elsewhere? Time will tell who's right on this (and I acknowledge that you have a lot more expertise here than I do) but I just can't see Marriott telling Manor Club Plat. owners, for example, that they have to give up 2 weeks of use to go to Aruba over the winter or Hawaii, both of which probably rent for about double what Manor Club does.
> 
> Personally, I think there would be so many angry owners who would never buy another Marriott that they would be shooting themselves in the foot. While it is true that your proposed system would equalize things wrt purchase price and trading value, letting the fair market really dictate trade value (since trade value would be determined by what others are willing to pay to rent daily at the resort), I think it would only be good for sales at high end resorts.
> 
> Marriott has to remain competitive in each locale. For example, when they sell in Cancun they will be competing with the Royals which are considered, by many, to be comparable more or less (less in the way of furnishings, more in the way of service). Their competition helps determine their pricing, both for selling and renting units. Likely Cancun daily rates will not be as high as some others are; how will they sell those units it buyers won't be able to get a one to one trade to the Caribbean or Hawaii? True, they can still trade through II, but they will be losing the advantage to trade to other Marriotts, which is why many, if not most, Marriott owners buy Marriott in the first place.



Well said.  I couldn't agree more.

Steve


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## JudyS (Jul 8, 2007)

PerryM said:


> ...II ONLY cares about historical supply and demand.  (ok, those comment cards, if bad enough, probably weigh in somewhere)  They assign an internal Point value (The infamous Trading Power- their Week based exchange system is still Point driven) to ALL units deposited.  We don't know what that numerical value is and it changes all the time.
> 
> II only cares about making exchanges - it's Marriott that gave the go ahead to exchange a unit that cost me $5,500 to buy with one they sell for $55,000.....
> 
> But this is exactly why I love the inefficiencies in II and Marriott - they let you do things with your money that should only happen in the Twilight Zone.


Thanks for your input, Perry.  I think that quality (especially regarding unit size) counts for much more in II than in does in RCI.  Otherwise, I agree with you completely here.

When you think about it, there is a real conflict of interest between II and Marriott (as well as between II and other high-end developers.)  Marriott would like you to have to spend the big bucks to go to one of their expensive properties.  II, however, just wants to make trades, and doesn't care what the week cost initially.  So, if you have a high-demand week, II considers that very valuable, regardless of what you paid for it.  There are some fairly inexpensive resorts that II has a shortage of, and it values these resorts very highly, despite their low cost.  Marriott tries to protect itself from this by having the 24-day Marriott preference, but that doesn't help prevent cheaper Marriott from trading into more expensive ones.  (I was going to say it doesn't prevent *cheap* Marriotts from trading into expensive ones, but no Marriotts are truly cheap, at least not when you consider the MFs.)  I'd guess this is a main reason why Marriott is developing its own system for internal exchanges.


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## VacationPro (Jul 8, 2007)

PerryM said:


> P.S.
> If Marriott does introduce an owner-to-owner internal exchange system I expect the 24-day Marriott only window to be removed from II.  That means that in II Marriott's have no priority to bag other Marriotts.  This is the way it should have been all along.  The developer has trampled into an area they should have never been allowed access to - the exchange of reservations among timeshare owners.
> 
> This is just one of many instances where there is NO level playing field among timeshare owners in II.



I would expect the window to shrink considerably, but not go away.  Look at Starwood.  They have an internal trading system, and II still has a preference window, albeit much shorter for Starwood than Marriott.


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## MikeM132 (Jul 9, 2007)

PerryM said:


> I must be honest here - I doubt that Marriott will ever adopt a Point Based Exchange System - so no one really needs to worry.  It's just going to be a rehash of II but with probably much higher fees.
> 
> One can dream however...



How would Marriott get much higher fees? It would seem to me if Marriott were that much more money, everybody would just keep using II.


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## PerryM (Jul 9, 2007)

*Big bucks is the dream...*



MikeM132 said:


> How would Marriott get much higher fees? It would seem to me if Marriott were that much more money, everybody would just keep using II.



Right now it's $89 Marriott to Marriott and the rest of II is $135 with RCI $164 (Domestic rates only).  I doubt Marriott will keep it at $89 for long.

Once Marriott goes internal, the inventory of Marriott units in II will dry up to just a fraction of what it is now.  All the good stuff will be in the Marriott system and the exchange fees will match II at least and I see no reason why they should be cheaper than RCI's at $164.

Marriott is doing this to make a lot of money, not to be some good samaritan.

P.S.
I'd hope that the internal Marriott exchange system interfaces with II and RCI.  Why not?

P.P.S.
I'm sure Marriott will forbid exchanges to be rented - this could have folks renting much less and thus be a boom to those of us who rent.

I'm also assuming that Marriott will NOT rent out exchanges like RCI.  However, they could open that flood gate by allowing folks the option of either depositing their units in the exchange system or into their rental system and the depositor can get either cash or an exchange - it depends on which occurs first.

This could open even more profit for Marriott - instead of making $100 or so on a reservation they could entice the person to also put it into the rental pool which they make much more than $100.

I like that idea.  Deposit your unit into the Marriott Rental Pool system first and if no rental before 4 months out have it then become a deposit into the exchange system.  This new exchange system could integrate the two into one.

Heck, even do the reverse - I get a great exchange and then tell Marriott to rent it for me!  They get my $100 exchange fee and then split the rental with me - I love it!


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## short (Jul 9, 2007)

*Is Marriott Vacation club a seperate entity from Marriott?*

HGVC is a seperate entity from Hilton.  We pay a annual fee to HGVC plus exchange and other fees are paid to the Club.  Of course Hilton is likely getting profit from renting staff? Management fees? etc.  I believe the Club is a self sustaining entity on its own.

No annual fee is paid to Marriott Vacation club.  Do individual resorts pay MVC to handle the reservation system?  The Marriott desk at II is II employees and I believe the II exchange fee goes to II.

Is MVC a seperate entity from Marriott? and if so how does it sustain itself?

Short


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## Dave M (Jul 9, 2007)

It's a separate entity, but it's part of the Marriott family of corporations and, thus, there are various intercompany expenditures.

MVCI "sustains" itself very well. It has tremendous revenue from selling timeshares, generates the loans which result in huge amounts of financing income and takes in a management fee for managing each of the various MVCI resorts.


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## jannino (Jul 11, 2007)

As the original poster, I'd like to thank everyone for their responses.  All of the information I've received on this post has been very helpful along with all of the info I've obtained on TUG.

I've concluded that since we live in NJ, I should have an east coast/caribbean location.  So after looking at all of these Marriott resorts, I've narrowed down my list of possible home resorts to the following:

1) Cypress Harbour - Orlando, FL
2) Grande Vista - Orlando, FL
3) Manor Club - Williamsburg, VA
4) Ocean Watch Villas - Myrtle Beach, SC
5) Aruba Ocean Club - Aruba
6) Aruba Surf Club - Aruba
7) Grande Ocean - Hilton Head, SC
8) Fairway Villas - NJ

For those who even remember my first post, I am looking to use my home resort half of the time and trade out the other half which is why I am interested in the trading power (TP) of the above stated resorts.

As such, I immediately took Fairway Villas off the list as its TP is low.

I took Grande Ocean off the list as I would need to take two planes to get the HHI from the NY/NJ area.

After looking at the Manor Club, I've determined it is not a place we would go to half of the time.

The two Aruba resorts are similar and since the Aruba Ocean Club has very little in terms of resale on the market and no washer/dryer in the units, I've taken this resort off the list.

I am now down to the following resorts:

1) Cypress Harbour - Orlando, FL
2) Grande Vista - Orlando, FL
3) Ocean Club Villas - Myrtle Beach, SC
4) Aruba Surf Club - Aruba

I will ultimately purchase a platinum season at one of these resorts as they increase my trading power.

I have also not ruled out DVC as from what I've read, these trade out very well but are pricey.

Here are my pros/cons with these remaining 4 resorts:

*Cypress Harbour* is appealing as it is a highly rated resort (evern higher than Grande Vista), but concerned that it does not trade out as well as Grande Vista, Ocean Club Villas or Surf Club.

*Grande Vista's* platinum calendar is the best fit for my vacation needs, but once again concerned about TP of an Orlando resort and concerned that the resort is too big (which I've read here on TUG).

*Surf Club* looks great, but also concerned about the beach reserving rules and potential overcrowding at the pools/beach palapas.  Also concerned about the cost to get to Aruba from NY/NJ area (around $700-$800 per person round trip).

Ocean Watch Villas is either a 12 hour drive (yikes) or a plane flight.  Also concerned that it is the most pricey resale of the 4 resorts listed above.

So any additional comments about the trading power of these 4 resorts and how they compare to the TP of DVC (Old Key West is the resort we'd buy) would be appreciated along with any other comments/information about these resorts.

Sorry for the long post and maybe I should have started a new post, but I figured I'd start here.

Thanks again !!


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## CMF (Jul 11, 2007)

*No Three bedrooms at Cypress Harbour  . . .*

. . . but Grande Vista HAS three bedroom lock-offs available in the resale market.  So, you can get two weeks for one at Grande Vista - not so at Cypress Harbour.


Charles


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## jannino (Jul 11, 2007)

Charles - Thanks.  I forgot to mention about the lockoff feature at Grande Vista and Surf Club which make these resorts more tradeable.


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## m61376 (Jul 12, 2007)

Jannino- Aruba trades second to Hawaii. The Surf Club is a great resort and you can't go wrong with a purchase there. Airfare from NY's JFK is much more reasonable than you think. I recently nabbed flights on AA for $425pp for the first week in January on their direct flight, which is a more expensive flight. You just need to check the fares. last year I purchased 3 months before going, so I booked the tickets a bit later and still paid $483pp. The flights are 4-4 1/2 hours, so reasonable in time/distance. Jet Blue also has service to Aruba out of JFK.

As for the beach and pool issues: During holiday weeks the areas are prob. a bit overcrowded, as is probably every other location in the Caribbean. I went the week after New Year's and the pool definitely was not crowded. There is concern about crowding when the new units open this fall, but they are increasing the lounge areas by the pool and, if crowding becomes an issue, are already contemplating adding an adults only pool in the area between the Surf Club and Ocean Club property line. As for the beach- with the recent beach expansion there is a nicely enlarged beach area, so I feel there is ample beach space and they just removed the sea wall so as to increase/improve the swimming area. I understand it has greatly improved. I, too, am concerned about the new palapa reservation system and, in fact, am the one that broached this controversial topic. While I remain concerned as to how this will work during peak season, I have heard from many people who have been down there during recent months that it has been working beautifully (much to my surprise, actually). It seems to have curtailed the "reserve for later use" mentality so that people are only reserving half day palapa use if they intend to actually use it, rather than affording their towels the protection and comfort of a palapa while they are at the pool, shopping or on another excursion. Hopefully it will work during peak season; if not, the Board members that I spoke to and the management there seem receptive to making changes as necessary to best accomodate the guests. They have added hundreds of bimini chaises- chaises with adjustable canopies- which are wonderful protection from the sun as well, to help alleviate the problems.

As you can probably tell, we love Aruba and the resort is wonderful. In fact, I am usually the on-the-go vacationer. Staying at the SC is the only time I ever enjoyed just a relaxing vacation...I think my hubbie is still in shock. My family usually needs a vacation from one of my vacations, so this is a welcome change for everyone  .

If you have any questions on the SC, feel free to PM me.


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## Steamboat Bill (Jul 12, 2007)

Your choices are getting more narrowed down and that is good.

I own DVC, Marriott MMC, Westgate Park City, and High Country Club.

Here are a few comments:

1. I love DVC for personal use (and we love Disney) or renting my extra points, but it is not worth trading in II as it is not a good use of money and Marriotts are much cheaper to trade, if that is your intention.

2. Orlando 2 bedroom platinum Marriotts (resale for $12k) are good if you use it 50% of the time. Trading is not as bad as it may seem, but not as good as Aruba, Hawaii, etc. This is a pretty inexpensive and fairly risk free way to buy your first TS as you can always sell it on eBay for about the same price as you bought it (assuming you get a good deal). If you plan on trading, you MUST reserve a desirable week first and then deposit with II.

3. You should really consider a destination club like www.highcountryclub.com as this may be a better fit for you and your family. They have a 1 week trial use and a 15 night membership plan that will cost about the same as a DVC or high-end Marriott. There is a TUG forum dedicated to destination clubs that you should review.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=48


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## gery (Jul 26, 2007)

I heard that Marriott is testing a points program in Asia in a new Sales gallery in Singapore
Is that true?


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## PerryM (Jul 26, 2007)

gery said:


> I heard that Marriott is testing a points program in Asia in a new Sales gallery in Singapore
> Is that true?



Use the Search facility here and you will find many threads/posts on this topic.


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## Cindala (Jul 26, 2007)

jannino said:


> *Cypress Harbour* is appealing as it is a highly rated resort (evern higher than Grande Vista), but concerned that it does not trade out as well as Grande Vista, Ocean Club Villas or Surf Club.
> 
> *Grande Vista's* platinum calendar is the best fit for my vacation needs, but once again concerned about TP of an Orlando resort and concerned that the resort is too big (which I've read here on TUG).



We are owners at Grande Vista and just returned from our first vacation there the week of July 4th. The resort is fabulous and while it is large, I was not concerned at all that it was too big. We absolutely loved it! 

I drove down the road to see what Cyress Harbour was all about, and I definitely was not impressed. All grey buildings hidden behind bushes and trees. Not for me.  I actually liked Marriott Horizons across the road from Cypress Harbour better.

We love Disney, so we chose a Florida location because we will probably be there half of the time. We chose Grande Vista because of the lockoff feature and the beauty of the place. I can also tell you that being from NJ, Florida airfares will be the cheapest of any of the locations you have listed. Go to www.farecompare.com and see what you can expect to pay to any destination.  Good luck on whatever you decide. Sometimes it's better to have fewer choices!


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## disneydor (Jul 26, 2007)

We were at Oceanwatch the 4th of July week and it took us 13 1/2 hours from Connecticut.  It's not too bad.  We own the plat plus week there.  Would that trade as well as Hawaii and Aruba?


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## linsj (Jul 26, 2007)

*PerryM,* your posts have been enlightening. I own Hilton, which is a points program I understand and which fits my vacation needs. On paper I own a two-bedroom for one week. But I don't need a 2-bedroom, and I can get more than 3 weeks out of my 5000 points. all in Hawaii if I choose to do so (offseason, which is when I prefer to vacation) and I can book as few as 3nights if I want less than a week somewhere. I like that I can see what's available on the HGVC web site and book it myself.

I've been thinking about buying a Marriott TS because of the properties but am having a hard time getting a handle on how the program works and how to make it work for my situation. Yes, I've read the stickies; but points systems make more sense to me and offer more flexibility. If Marriott moved to a point system with internal tradiing, I'd buy a resale in a heartbeat.


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## Dave M (Jul 26, 2007)

gery said:


> I heard that Marriott is testing a points program in Asia in a new Sales gallery in Singapore
> Is that true?


It's more than a test. It's a program that Marriott first introduced almost exactly a year ago. It's not available to U.S. residents. Here's the link to the primary thread that was started then.


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## PerryM (Jul 26, 2007)

linsj said:


> *PerryM,* your posts have been enlightening. I own Hilton, which is a points program I understand and which fits my vacation needs. On paper I own a two-bedroom for one week. But I don't need a 2-bedroom, and I can get more than 3 weeks out of my 5000 points. all in Hawaii if I choose to do so (offseason, which is when I prefer to vacation) and I can book as few as 3nights if I want less than a week somewhere. I like that I can see what's available on the HGVC web site and book it myself.
> 
> I've been thinking about buying a Marriott TS because of the properties but am having a hard time getting a handle on how the program works and how to make it work for my situation. Yes, I've read the stickies; but points systems make more sense to me and offer more flexibility. If Marriott moved to a point system with internal tradiing, *I'd buy a resale in a heartbeat*.



Well whatever internal exchange program Marriott introduces it will be first and primarily a sales tool.  That, to me, would mean grandfathering in ALL Marriott ownerships on announcement day and ONLY Marriott sales would qualify in the future.

Could that mean resale prices drop like a brick - well that's why Marriott has a ROFR on 80% of their units.  Marriott could snap them up for pennies on the dollar and resell them at full price.  Who knows.


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## disneydor (Jul 27, 2007)

Am I better off keeping my plat plus OV Oceanwatch or should I sell and buy MMC sequel resale and have the lock off option?


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## disneydor (Jul 27, 2007)

Anyone out there have any advice for which of the above would be better for trading?


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## disneydor (Jul 28, 2007)

Anyone have any suggestions?


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## Dave M (Jul 28, 2007)

I think the reason you aren't getting suggestions is that there isn't much to choose from. As a trader, a Platinum at either resort should do very well. Thus, I would keep what I own - either one - unless I want to stay at the other resort much more frequently than at my own resort. Even then I would search the resale sites for comparable pricing in an effort to determine whether making the change would likely cost me more on a net basis than I think it's worth.


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## disneydor (Jul 28, 2007)

Thank you.  That is what I was thinking I was just looking for another opinion.  I'm trying not to second guess myself and trying to be smarter this time around after reading these boards.


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## leskiw (Sep 16, 2007)

MikeM132 said:


> This thread is becoming technical. Once Perry chimes in, you'll get tons of how-to's to use the system. He really does know, but once you plan your vacation that way you'll need another one, in my opinion.
> Anyway, my personal advice is buy resale (not from Marriott). Look at maintenance fees closely if you are going to trade. Buying a Hawaii week to trade with a 1400.00/year maint fee is nuts.
> The order you were given seems right, except Platinum Hilton Head weeks have to be top traders, too. I have no idea how HHI stacks up against California, but I'd bet it might be right up there if not better.
> I agree with another post that Manor CLub is probably good to trade. Main fees are low, purchase price is OK, and any Marriott is going to trade well. Get a lock off unit to trade--big advantage. That's my short version.
> Am I correct in assuming you want to go to Orlando about 50% of the time? We have a Grande Vista, and it has traded pretty well for us so far. We've traded the lock-off for October Hilton Head (all 2br units there). We've received a/c s for our Spring Break weeks, too. Maint is not all that high there,(I think something just short of 900.00 for plat 2br). If you're looking at Grande Vista, resale is about half price or lower. There are a lot available, too. You can trade into Orlando Marriotts pretty easily, but then you get all the II fee stuff.


MikeM,
Why do you think the lock off is an advantage? I am thinking about buying a Manor Club resale and would appreciate hearing your thoughts.

Dave


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## Steamboat Bill (Sep 16, 2007)

leskiw said:


> MikeM,
> Why do you think the lock off is an advantage? I am thinking about buying a Manor Club resale and would appreciate hearing your thoughts.
> 
> Dave



I actually prefer MMC over MSE as I only want to trade for 2 bedroom units.

However, MSE will (only) allow a studio trade for a 2 bedroom during flex. But I usually need more than 60 days notice for travel.


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## Larry (Sep 16, 2007)

laxmom said:


> I own Grande Vista platinum eoy and have traded to all three of the areas you have mentioned.  We have traded to Newport Coast in summer, Ko Olina and Kauai in the fall and Aruba in the summer.  We have never stayed a week at Grande Vista but have traded it and received AC's for it twice.  One I traded for Manor Club in June - the other for Gatlinburg in June.  Ad a trade to Hilton Head in August in there also.  These may or may not be peak times but with kids still in school, it worked for us.
> 
> That said, we have been really pleased with our low trading power. I actually think we will use our week next year to do the Orlando thing.



I am not a Marriott owner so I can't really speak to trading power of Marriotts but I can tell that you don't need a Marriott to trade into Aruba during the summer. It's a pretty easy trade with just about anything so being able to trade in with a Marriott Orlando week doesn't mean too much and I have done it for my brother in law this summer ( He traded into Aruba Surf Club with a mediocre week during flex exchange and I got my daughter Playa Linda last year during beginning of December with an AC). As a matter of fact saying that Aruba Marriotts have the second best trading power after Hawaii ignores the primary axiom which is what time of the year you are trading with ( all goes back to supply and demand). 

I would say that winter weeks in Aruba ( weeks 51-12 also Easter week and maybe 4th of July) are premium weeks with the highest trading power and Xmas, New Years and Presidents week being the highest. That would also be true of Hilton Head where summer weeks have the best trading power with winter weeks being the lowest.

So when do you want to trade into Aruba? If it's summer not much is needed. If it's spring or fall even easier to get but winter weeks are extremely difficult and will need super trading power and even then if you don't own one of the Marriotts in Aruba it will be a difficult trade.


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## Berea1 (Mar 18, 2018)

Larry said:


> I am not a Marriott owner so I can't really speak to trading power of Marriotts but I can tell that you don't need a Marriott to trade into Aruba during the summer. It's a pretty easy trade with just about anything so being able to trade in with a Marriott Orlando week doesn't mean too much and I have done it for my brother in law this summer ( He traded into Aruba Surf Club with a mediocre week during flex exchange and I got my daughter Playa Linda last year during beginning of December with an AC). As a matter of fact saying that Aruba Marriotts have the second best trading power after Hawaii ignores the primary axiom which is what time of the year you are trading with ( all goes back to supply and demand).
> 
> I would say that winter weeks in Aruba ( weeks 51-12 also Easter week and maybe 4th of July) are premium weeks with the highest trading power and Xmas, New Years and Presidents week being the highest. That would also be true of Hilton Head where summer weeks have the best trading power with winter weeks being the lowest.
> 
> So when do you want to trade into Aruba? If it's summer not much is needed. If it's spring or fall even easier to get but winter weeks are extremely difficult and will need super trading power and even then if you don't own one of the Marriotts in Aruba it will be a difficult trade.




I am the owner of four Marriott weeks all of which are located at Hilton Head Island, SC..  The maintenance fees on each have risen to the $1,400 to $1,600 per week.  As a result, a lot of these timeshares are being given away for $1 and playing the closing and transfer fees.  Marriott totally changed the rules in June, 2010 when it went from a week system to a points system and the points that are required to get a summer week compared to a offseason winter week.  I thought I would post a reply so that the discussion held prior to 2010 could be re-evaluated to prevent Marriott from any consideration of changing the current rules since 2010.  Patrick


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## scpoidog (Mar 18, 2018)

I’ve never seen a 10 year old thread get bumped before.


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## VacationForever (Mar 18, 2018)

I don't see how a revival of an old thread can "prevent Marriott from any consideration of changing the current rules since 2010.", as posted by Patrick above.


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## Dean (Mar 19, 2018)

Berea1 said:


> I am the owner of four Marriott weeks all of which are located at Hilton Head Island, SC..  The maintenance fees on each have risen to the $1,400 to $1,600 per week.  As a result, a lot of these timeshares are being given away for $1 and playing the closing and transfer fees.  Marriott totally changed the rules in June, 2010 when it went from a week system to a points system and the points that are required to get a summer week compared to a offseason winter week.  I thought I would post a reply so that the discussion held prior to 2010 could be re-evaluated to prevent Marriott from any consideration of changing the current rules since 2010.  Patrick


Wow, over 10 yrs old and we hold essentially the same discussion periodically related to trade power.  I'm not sure your actually point.  Bronze and possibly Silver weeks on HH have always been worth less than they cost and likely less than just the fees.  As for preventing changes, I'm not sure we have that power.  Certainly complaining or petitioning would make no difference.  Plus, have they really changed anything not related to exchanging which is in the paperwork not to be guaranteed.  Certainly the choices buying in are different but none of the choices have been remove, at least yet, there are just more options/considerations.  I figure at some point the II preference for non qualified weeks and the reduced Marriott to Marriott fee will go away but I hope I'm wrong.


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