# Employees/non-guests hosting parties at WKORV/WKORVN?



## Westin5Star (Apr 26, 2010)

I also wanted to say that I noticed a problem the past two days here.  I assume that it is only happening on Saturday and Sunday when folks are off work.  There were many (50 or more) locals here both days.  They had ice chests, storage buckets, etc. and used the BBQs and tables all day.  You could not get a table near the BBQs either day prior to 5pm.  When they left the BBQs were dirtier than I have ever seen a BBQ, they had damaged the heating elements, the trash cans were overflowing, and the cement and tables were sticky and full of debris.  I received my 5* letter as usual here with the GMs direct line so I plan to discuss this problem with him.  Before I contact him, I wanted to know if anyone else has noticed this problem?


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## LisaRex (Apr 26, 2010)

I've honestly never noticed such a thing on the north side, but we're pretty far removed from the public park next door.  I wonder if the park has BBQs for people's use? I'd hope so. 

If this does continue to be a problem, I wonder if there's some way to live harmoniously together without resorting to the dreaded wristbands.  I like interacting with locals, though I'd probably be too intimidated to approach a crowd of 50.


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## DeniseM (Apr 26, 2010)

The park next door has a large picnic area and barbeques


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## Henry M. (Apr 26, 2010)

I've stayed in building 3 several times. The locals usually only go to Kahekili park, right next to the resort. That is a public area and is always busy on the weekend. Most people leave before sunset.

Are you saying a large group came to use the grills at WKORV that are near the pool? That should not be happening.


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## Quimby4 (Apr 26, 2010)

We are at wkorv north and there were lots of locals at the pool Sunday. Noth pool was filled, kids etc

In the 8 building on 3rd floor loving it!


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## Denise L (Apr 26, 2010)

Westin5Star said:


> I also wanted to say that I noticed a problem the past two days here.  I assume that it is only happening on Saturday and Sunday when folks are off work.  There were many (50 or more) locals here both days.  They had ice chests, storage buckets, etc. and used the BBQs and tables all day.  You could not get a table near the BBQs either day prior to 5pm.  When they left the BBQs were dirtier than I have ever seen a BBQ, they had damaged the heating elements, the trash cans were overflowing, and the cement and tables were sticky and full of debris.  I received my 5* letter as usual here with the GMs direct line so I plan to discuss this problem with him.  Before I contact him, I wanted to know if anyone else has noticed this problem?



We noticed large families staying for the entire day and night at the North bbqs near the pirate pool. They had coolers, but they also had dishes and some had pool towels?  My DH commented that it seemed like locals, yet where did they get the dishes from, he asked.  So we weren't sure if they were registered guests or what.  But they did take over the area well into the night.

Let us know what the GM or higher-ups say about the situation.  Our MFs are high enough as it is.


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## nodge (Apr 26, 2010)

Denise L said:


> We noticed large families staying for the entire day and night at the North bbqs near the pirate pool. They had coolers, but they also had dishes and some had pool towels?  My DH commented that it seemed like locals, yet where did they get the dishes from, he asked.  So we weren't sure if they were registered guests or what.  But they did take over the area well into the night.



Same thing happened when we were there in January.  At check-out I asked about it and was told that employees are permitted to host private parties for family and friends on the grounds.  

-nodge


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## DeniseM (Apr 26, 2010)

nodge said:


> Same thing happened when we were there in January.  At check-out I asked about it and was told that employees are permitted to host private parties for family and friends on the grounds.
> 
> -nodge



This begs the question, "Why?"  There is a lovely public park right next door.  It seems to me this infringes on the rights of owners who are paying big bucks for their Maui timeshare.


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## James1975NY (Apr 26, 2010)

Westin5Star said:


> I also wanted to say that I noticed a problem the past two days here.  I assume that it is only happening on Saturday and Sunday when folks are off work.  There were many (50 or more) locals here both days.  They had ice chests, storage buckets, etc. and used the BBQs and tables all day.  You could not get a table near the BBQs either day prior to 5pm.  When they left the BBQs were dirtier than I have ever seen a BBQ, they had damaged the heating elements, the trash cans were overflowing, and the cement and tables were sticky and full of debris.  I received my 5* letter as usual here with the GMs direct line so I plan to discuss this problem with him.  Before I contact him, I wanted to know if anyone else has noticed this problem?



You are talking about the grill areas on the resort grounds correct?


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## aeroflygirl (Apr 26, 2010)

Westin5Star said:


> I also wanted to say that I noticed a problem the past two days here.  I assume that it is only happening on Saturday and Sunday when folks are off work.  There were many (50 or more) locals here both days.  They had ice chests, storage buckets, etc. and used the BBQs and tables all day.  You could not get a table near the BBQs either day prior to 5pm.  When they left the BBQs were dirtier than I have ever seen a BBQ, they had damaged the heating elements, the trash cans were overflowing, and the cement and tables were sticky and full of debris.  I received my 5* letter as usual here with the GMs direct line so I plan to discuss this problem with him.  Before I contact him, I wanted to know if anyone else has noticed this problem?



We noticed it, too. We were there in January. It was on a weekend. The BBQ tables and grills were busy. There were kids running loose without much supervision.


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 26, 2010)

This is unacceptable on many levels - the BBQ/Resort usage by non-Owners, not the trees (the large MFs we pay, the liability of the HOAs for WKORV/N allowing this - especially for unsupervised children, the added cost for usage and trashing, etc.)

I recommend that WKORV/N Owners contact SVO and WKORV/N about this and inform them of our concerns.

btw - I am okay with the trees (but hate those thorns) - they cut them back in the past (I have photos of both grown and cut-back) - and they will grow back - they are tough trees to kill.


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## DeniseM (Apr 26, 2010)

Does anyone have the resort manager's name?

Westin5Star - would you be willing to talk to the resort manager about this?

I'd like to know exactly what the rules are regarding employee parties, and if it was authorized by the local Mgr. or higher up.

*Went back and re-read your post and see that you already stated that you are going to do this-


> WestinStar:  I received my 5* letter as usual here with the GMs direct line so I plan to discuss this problem with him. Before I contact him, I wanted to know if anyone else has noticed this problem?


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 26, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Does anyone have the resort manager's name?



Maybe Jeff has it?

{this is one of those communication-transparency-responsiveness issues us whiny Tuggers are always railing on about...}


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## YYJMSP (Apr 26, 2010)

nodge said:


> At check-out I asked about it and was told that employees are permitted to host private parties for family and friends on the grounds.



That's ridiculous!  We pay big bucks for the use of the property.  They should not be allowing non-guests (or someone not paying for the use...) from hosting events on-site, tying up facilities that customers are paying to use...


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## nodge (Apr 26, 2010)

YYJMSP said:


> That's ridiculous!  We pay big bucks for the use of the property.  They should not be allowing non-guests (or someone not paying for the use...) from hosting events on-site, tying up facilities that customers are paying to use...



Ah, but what about when an employee uses his or her employee discount to book a room for cheap and then invites 20-30 of his or her friends over for a BBQ party?  That's what happened when we were there.  I watched security actually help carry the beer cooler to the BBQ's.

-nodge


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## DeniseM (Apr 26, 2010)

Since an owner cannot book a room and invite 20 or 30 friends over to use the pool, why should anyone else?


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## sjuhawk_jd (Apr 26, 2010)

nodge said:


> Ah, but what about when an employee uses his or her employee discount to book a room for cheap and then invites 20-30 of his or her friends over for a BBQ party?  That's what happened when we were there.  I watched security actually help carry the beer cooler to the BBQ's.
> 
> -nodge



Westin Hotel side will never allow this since guests can take their business elsewhere, can leave negative reviews on tripadvisor to negatively impact business, etc. The timeshare side is an entire different business model and captive market!


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## paluamalia (Apr 26, 2010)

*Parties with the locals*

I haven't seen this (large parties that look like locals)....maybe they allow only in slow season...

If they are not loud and causing a lot of trouble I don't see it as a problem.  I'd rather see a nice happy family using the BBQs than the loud drunken revelers that we hear most every Friday and Saturday night we are there...and they are not locals.   And I've seen those BBQ areas pretty dirty after only one family burns their dinner on it!!

I live in a tourist area and we welcome our visitors, our economy needs them and we love to share the beauty of our peninsula with them.   As hard as we both try, locals and visitors, we sometimes have problems sharing what we see as our home with guests who act like we should get out of their way while they have their vacation.  

So, I don't see the harm in sharing our space once in a while...they are the ones who take care of us while we are there, and take care of the islands when we go home...maybe if we were friendlier they would invite us to the party!!


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## YYJMSP (Apr 26, 2010)

*From the owner's book*

_3.6. WHAT ARE MY USAGE RIGHTS?

...

Except for your Assigned Unit during your Vacation Period, you may not use or occupy a Vacation Unit or its furnishings. Likewise, except during your Vacation Period you may not use any of the common elements of the Condominium, the Master Association Amenities, or any Ka'anapali North Beach Amenities unless they are open to the general public or unless the Board decides to permit Day Use. "Day Use" means that Owners may come onto the Condominium at times other than their Vacation Period. Day Use is still subject to any limitations imposed by the Governing Documents. The Plan Operator must limit Day Use so that it does not unreasonably burden or interfere with the use of Condominium, the Master Association Amenities, or any Ka'anapali North Beach Amenities.

..._

So, it's pretty clear to me that groups who are preventing Owners (which would also include renters, etc) from accessing the facilities should be dealt with by the Board and/or Plan Operator.

I assume the property facilities are not open to the general public.

If the Board has allowed employees to use the facilities under the "Day Use" provisions, it needs to be brought to their attention that this use is interfering with Owner use.


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## jarta (Apr 26, 2010)

This was a bad management decision. No excuse is good enough to permit staff to take over substantial resort amenities.   ...   eom


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## nodge (Apr 26, 2010)

paluamalia said:


> ...maybe if we were friendlier they would invite us to the party!!



I'd stay clear of that party on the last day of school before summer if I were you.  From what I saw, no one there was looking to make any new friends from the mainland.  

-nodge


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## gregb (Apr 26, 2010)

WKORVN resort manager is Gregg Lundberg (or something similar).  Call the operator and ask to talk to him.  He has always been willing to talk to me when I called.

Greg


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## DeniseM (Apr 26, 2010)

I googled it and it is Gregg Lundberg - his email address is:

*gregg.lundberg@starwoodvo.com*​
I'm going to send him and email right now.


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## RLOGO (Apr 26, 2010)

nodge said:


> Same thing happened when we were there in January.  At check-out I asked about it and was told that employees are permitted to host private parties for family and friends on the grounds.
> 
> -nodge



I cannot believe what I am reading.  This is another one of those good idea-bad execution   scenarios’


Good idea – provide fringe benefits to keep employee moral high


Bad idea- let crowds of employees, family and friends overrun a resort where some have paid as much as $105K to buy into.

What next porta potties on the lawns of WKORV grounds.

Oh wait……….


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## zinger1457 (Apr 26, 2010)

I wouldn't have a problem with an employee using the facilities as long as reasonable limits were in place, no large groups, 2 or 3 guest max.  It's not uncommon practice for businesses (resorts or private/resort golf clubs) to allow employees to use the facilities but it's usually on condition that they can only use it if it doesn't impact the current guest or members.


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## Ken555 (Apr 26, 2010)

On a related note, when I was at WPORV one of the staff mentioned she wasn't allowed to bring her children to the resort, though she wanted to let them use the pools. If this is any indication, I'm inclined to give WKORV the benefit of the doubt, until we hear otherwise.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 26, 2010)

We just left WKORN yesterday and noticed lots of people with different pool towels, a huge assortment of colors and sizes, and we thought it odd because most people really tend to use the striped Westin ones.  There was an inordinate number of people using different towels than Westin's.  

It also looked like there were some people just walking to the Westin down the sidewalk from the south with their coolers in hand.  I had no idea what to make of it, but it started on Friday after lunch and continued through our check-out time of 10:00 yesterday.  So we saw three days of what I believe were locals using the property's amenities.  But they were polite, not noisy, and seemed to be having a great time.


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## DeniseM (Apr 26, 2010)

Here is the reply I got from Gregg - maybe someone who was told these were employee parties should contact him directly.  Or maybe Westin5Star can explain what he saw, face-to-face, and get an explanation.



> Aloha Denise,
> 
> I’m not sure what you are referring to as large employee hosted parties.  Our policy here at the property, and with Starwood as a company,  is and has always been that employees are not allowed to stay at the property they work in.  There are always unique exceptions, but those are approved through my office, and I have never approved large groups of any kind.
> 
> ...


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## nodge (Apr 26, 2010)

WKORV General Manager said:


> . . . Our policy here at the property, and with Starwood as a company, is and has always been that employees are not allowed to stay at the property they work in.  [...] Too my knowledge, what you have described has not occurred at either KOR or KORN. . . .
> 
> 
> Gregg



Wouldn't the better response from him at this point have been . . . .  "Thanks for your input.  I'll investigate it and get back to you"?  Instead of "to my knowledge . . . .."  It's not like you were taking his deposition or anything.  

I'm guessing that good ol' Gregg keeps pretty darned regular hours that the employees can anticipate.  I would suggest to him that he mix his schedule up a little and even do a random pop-in now and then, preferably by entering the property through different paths.  At a minimum he should consider not wearing that cow bell his employees gave him last bosses' day.

Moreover, who says its WKORV or WKORV-N employees booking the rooms and partying there?  Wouldn't Westin and Sheraton hotel employees from the Starwood resorts up the beach be entitled to the same room discount there?

Also, the whole "employees can party" thing came from the same WKORV-N employee that kept telling me the hot water in our villa would be back on in "20 minutes" even though it remained out for the last 24 hours of our visit there.  So there was definitely a communication failure going on somewhere with her.

-nodge


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## DeniseM (Apr 27, 2010)

I really don't know what to think - it's hard to believe a GM could be that out of touch with what is going on under his nose!    I hope Westin5Star can get to the bottom of it!

Nodge - I don't suppose you remember the "party" employee's name?


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## nodge (Apr 27, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> I really don't know what to think - it's hard to believe a GM could be that out of touch with what is going on under his nose!




Um.  Isn't this the same GM that allowed this?

I'll look for my check-out paperwork.  Maybe the name of the employee who told me about the "employee parties" is on it.

-nodge


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## Westin5Star (Apr 27, 2010)

I am not suggesting that the people overtaking the BBQs and tables were employees.  In fact, none of them looked familiar and we visit often.  Yes, I am talking about the BBQs at WKORV and not at the park next door.  I had said that there was alot (maybe 50) locals.  After reconsidering and looking at things yesterday, I am now guessing there was more than 50 and closer to 100 people.  The reason that I called them locals is because they live on the island.  The reason that I know this is that I talked to them.  In particular, a white (not native of Hawaii) woman thanked me for visiting.  After stepping in sticky stuff, not being ablet to sit at a dirty table, seeing the trash overflowing, and the BBQ broken that day- it took everything within me not to say something to her.  I also notice many of their PARTY using the pools.  I do have Greg's direct line and I will be calling him to discuss this.

On a side note, yesterday was amazingly quite here.  The BBQs and tables were open and clean almost all day.  The floors were not sticky.  The trash was not overflowing.  The resort had a much more relaxing feel as there wasn't so many people here.  It was very nice not to have the place overrun with locals.  I also noticed security very visible throughout the day which I hadn't noticed on Saturday or Sunday.  If I have anything new on this I will post it.


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## DeniseM (Apr 27, 2010)

Westin5Star - Nodge noticed the same thing when he was there, and at check-out an employee told him that the extra people were guests of employees.  That's where that came from.

I really can't believe this is going on! :annoyed:  Hope you can get a straight answer!  A face to face visit with Gregg might be more informative, if you are up to it.


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## nodge (Apr 27, 2010)

I viewed two such parties during my stay at WKORV-N in January.  Both were attended primarily by native Hawaiians.

One party of about 20-30 guests was held in the grill area adjacent to room 69 in building 7 (on this map).  The partiers kept coming and going out of the ground floor unit 02 or 03 in building 8.  This is the one where the security guard helped carry the cooler.  

Another party was on a different day and night in the grill area adjacent to the pirate ship pool (near unit 01 in building 5 on this map).  This group of about 10 was far more menacing than the first.  Our boys are too big to swim in the pirate ship pool, but one evening they decided they just wanted to walk around it and check it out.  As we all approached the side of the pool closest to the grills, two large gentlemen from the party, and that appeared to be of Samoan descent, came over and stood with their arms crossed between us and the partiers at the grills.  We took the hint and kept on moving.

-nodge

Sooo . . . .as long as I'm pointing out landmarks on the map from my January visit to WKORV-N, the port-o-potties were by unit 09 in building 8, Clint's truck was by unit 70 in building 7, and the totally nude/naked couple, which I haven't said anything about yet, were usually on the beach in front of those new condos next to SVO's abandoned construction mess up the way.  I digress, but it seems to me that if you are going to go totally nude/naked at a non-clothing optional public beach you should at least have the body to support it.  Geesh.  -n


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## Ken555 (Apr 27, 2010)

Wow, this doesn't sound right at all.


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## okwiater (Apr 27, 2010)

Sounds like something I'd expect at Lagunamar, not WKORV!


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## Westin5Star (Apr 29, 2010)

I was finally able to connect with the manger regarding this situation.  I'm sorry that it took so long but we have been enjoying our vacation so I fit this conversation in when it was convinient.

The resort was obviously already aware of the problem and have been taking steps to work on it.  I explained that I felt the best and most appropriate solution is to check for room information (room keys) from guests.  Obviously this would only need to be done for large parties and those with big tubs / ice chests, etc.  The resort also already had signs ordered that will be posted as well as information about the problem in the room letters.  I'm not sure the signs or letters will really do any good though.  

The manager was aware of the problem and is very concerned.  I believe that the staff and security will be trained / retrained to look out for this problem and take care of it in the future.  Based on my conversation about the steps being taken, I doubt we will see any such problems in the near future.  If we do, I definitely feel like WKORV will quickly address and take care of the problem.


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## DeniseM (Apr 29, 2010)

I don't know what to think about this.  It sounds like staff and security are PART of the problem!  

I have to wonder how this problem could even have gotten to this point?  If the GM is aware of it, why wasn't it nipped in the bud?  Either he has chosen to look the other way, or his staff is out of control. 

Will you still be there next weekend?


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## esk444 (Apr 29, 2010)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> Westin Hotel side will never allow this since guests can take their business elsewhere, can leave negative reviews on tripadvisor to negatively impact business, etc. The timeshare side is an entire different business model and captive market!



The Sheraton in Keahou on the Big Island had a bunch of locals use their pool when I stayed there.  One of them told me their cousin who worked there could get them wrist bands when it was slow.  I kinda got the sense it was pretty common out there.


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## DeniseM (Apr 29, 2010)

esk444 said:


> The Sheraton in Keahou on the Big Island had a bunch of locals use their pool when I stayed there.  One of them told me their cousin who worked there could get them wrist bands when it was slow.  I kinda got the sense it was pretty common out there.



Yeah - but that is a hotel and management can decide how they want to use the property.

WKORV is owned by owners, not Starwood, and it's not appropriate for management to allow unauthorized visitors to use facilities, damage property, create extra clean up and maintenance, and prevent owners from having full use of the property THAT WE OWN &  PAY FOR!    

Starwood - I HOPE you are reading this thread!

If anyone has the email address for any of the board members, please forward them a link to this thread!


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## YYJMSP (Apr 29, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> WKORV is owned by owners, not Starwood, and it's not appropriate for management to allow unauthorized visitors to use facilities, damage property, create extra clean up and maintenance, and prevent owners from having full use of the property THAT WE OWN & PAY FOR!



Agreed!

I have 7 units booked for an extended family holiday in just over 2 months, and I was the one to choose the destination, make all arrangements, etc. and promoted it as a high-end vacation (probably a once-in-a-lifetime for the grandparents).

Last thing I want is anything disrupting that vacation, or preventing us from using the facilities that I paid for and promoted to the rest of my family...


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## RLG (Apr 30, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> It sounds like staff and security are PART of the problem!
> 
> I have to wonder how this problem could even have gotten to this point?  If the GM is aware of it, why wasn't it nipped in the bud?  Either he has chosen to look the other way, or his staff is out of control.





DeniseM said:


> WKORV is owned by owners, not Starwood, and it's not appropriate for management to allow unauthorized visitors to use facilities, damage property, create extra clean up and maintenance, and prevent owners from having full use of the property THAT WE OWN &  PAY FOR!



I couldn't agree with Denise more.  This sounds like egregiously bad management and/or Starwood acting like they own they property.

BTW, many high end resorts take measures to ensure that paying guests don't get the feeling that the property is a private club for the employees and their friends and family.  For example, the Fairmont Orchid here on the Big Island doesn't allow off duty employees on the property at all even as paying customers.


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## Westin5Star (Apr 30, 2010)

I was out at the main WKORV pool yesterday about 4:30pm.  I noticed a large group that I hadn't seen here all week.  There was about 12-15 people in what looked like 2-3 families.  Being the investigative reporter that I am I took my boys and started swimming over near them.  Sure enough, after listening to their conversation I found out that they live on the island.  I also noticed that they all brought yellow and white striped towels with them; none of them got the wristbands to go down the slides though.  I like to give people the benefit of the doubt so it is possible that they all rented a suite here for the night and that none of the kids wanted to use the slide.  It just seemed odd that these families brought their kids to rent a room yesterday after they got out of school.  I'm starting to think that the only way to police this would be to have all guest wear wristbands.


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## DeniseM (Apr 30, 2010)

I hope you reported it....


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## Quimby4 (Apr 30, 2010)

Here is my take on this.  Last Sat. & Sunday at the WKORV-N pool were a bunch of locals with their coolers...The high school girls were wearing the Lahainanluna H.S. t-shirts so you know they go to school down the street.  I was waiting in line behind them to get towels from the shack.  You all know now about the "towel Card" process where you have to give a "towel card" to get a towel and then when you return your dirty towel you're given a clean towel or a towel card.  These people just asked for towles, without giving a towel card...so what does that tell you...the workers knew who they were and were ok with it...Once they get Westin towels secruity is not going to question them...


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## YYJMSP (Apr 30, 2010)

Has anyone contacted the GM and followed-up since the last few posts?

Westin5Star, since you're on-site and have already talked to the GM, it might make most sense for you to contact him again.  Anyone who's not actually there would just be reporting on what they heard from someone else, and might not have the same impact.

This is obviously a serious on-going issue, and it sounds like ALL staff need a good talking-to, sooner than later, not just security staff, etc told to look out for the problem -- management needs to make it clear to everyone who works there that this is not an acceptable use of OUR property...


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## DanCali (May 1, 2010)

Perhaps someone can contact Beatrice Case. Didn't she get voted by an overwhelming majority of votes? Let's see is she can live up to the hype...


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## califgal (May 1, 2010)

I would think that if it was reported while the large group was there, the manager could easily evaluate the situation.


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## aeroflygirl (May 2, 2010)

Last January when DH & I were there, we were in the chairs overlooking the ocean.  I was reading and DH was snorkeling (he had been out less than 20 minutes).  When he returned, his towel was gone from his chair (next to my chair).  I WAS SITTING THERE READING THE ENTIRE TIME.  I NEVER SAW ANYONE APPROACH.  NOBODY ASKED "IS SOMEONE USING THIS?".  No "sorry" letter, no nothing.  They must have approached the chair from behind.  We went to the towel cabana and told them his towel had been taken and we needed another one.  They said "That happens sometimes" and gave us another towel.

My point is that anyone can just take your towel and use it.  Once they have it, they can exchange it for another towel or a towel card.  The cabana attendants and security guards don't challenge them.

The towel cabana guys did not tell us "Sorry, I cannot give you a towel without a card".   We are grateful for that, but people stealing towels and no discipline to the towel card policy are two signs that we have a management/security problem.


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## thheath (May 2, 2010)

This whole "Local Use" issue isn't just at the resort in question.  Living on Kauai I see and hear about it at many of the resorts.  There seems to be this "Don't upset the locals" attitude throughout the islands.  Additionally most managers and supervisors of employees don't do either (manage or supervise) and just go with the flow.

I agree with other posters that the practice is wrong when it impacts owners and authorized exchange guests.


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## Westin5Star (May 2, 2010)

Amazing- yesterday before we left I went out to the pool from 10am-11:30am.  In that time I witnessed two groups (both with 6 people) of island residents come on property.  The towel hut gave them towels without cards and also even gave them wristbands.  They were not asked for room number, name, or anything!!!  I was pretty tired of dealing with this so I didn't even bother complaining.  I thought I would let you all know about this in case someone else wants to take up this cause the next time they visit.  

Last year when I was at the Hyatt Poipu, they made everyone have wrist bands to use the facilities.  In fact, they checked us out THOROUGHLY just to give the wristbands to each member of my family.  At the time I thought it was odd and a hassle.  I am now starting to understand why they did this.  I am starting to think that this might be the only way to fix this problem outside of 10' high barbed wired fences.


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## thheath (May 2, 2010)

Owners that don't complain are condoning with their silence...


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## paluamalia (May 2, 2010)

*Never had that experience*

I have gone to the KORV every year since 2004 and have never witnessed anything like what is being talked about here.  I have  occasionally stopped off at the Ka'anapali Beach Hotel and stretched out on their lounges by the pool, no one chased me away.  

Sometimes the resorts invite schools, or families that have won community events, or made significant contributions of time and effort to their communities to stay and enjoy the resort.  This often happens at the Ka'anapali Beach Hotel....and probably at the Westin Villas as well.   It helps the resorts retain good employees and attract new employees.  

These hotels and resorts are part of the community of Lahaina and Maui.  I believe it would be a mistake to close ourselves off from the island residents...whether the 10 foot fence is made of steel, barbed wire, or just our own misgivings.   It is their home, we are the visitors.



Marie


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## alexadeparis (May 2, 2010)

Sure we are the visitors, but for people that actually own there, it IS their home, too- if only for one week a year. If this were a full time condo development that wasn't a timeshare, there's no way that would be tolerated to have people that didn't live there using the facilities. This is egregious, and completely preventable. As much maintenance fee as they charge you owners, (I am not an owner there), they can hire a few people to police this issue. The beach is public by law, the resort amenities are NOT!


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## YYJMSP (May 2, 2010)

paluamalia said:


> Sometimes the resorts invite schools, or families that have won community events, or made significant contributions of time and effort to their communities to stay and enjoy the resort.  This often happens at the Ka'anapali Beach Hotel....and probably at the Westin Villas as well.   It helps the resorts retain good employees and attract new employees.



If this was a hotel, owned and operated by some third party (like Starwood, Marriott, etc), sure, no problem.  The common areas of a hotel are typically open to the public.

The issue is that WE are the owners, and the operator (SVO) doesn't necessarily have the right to grant access to the property facilities in a manner inconsisent with our documented usage rights, without our (i.e the Board's) consent.  The common areas of the villas are not open to the public.



YYJMSP said:


> _3.6. WHAT ARE MY USAGE RIGHTS?
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


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## DeniseM (May 2, 2010)

I contacted Resort Mgr. Gregg Lundberg a second time, on Apr. 26th, with more details about the problems at the resort, and he did not respond to my email.

If you are an owner at WKORV or WKORVN, or a SVN owner that has stayed there, please contact Greg Lundberg at *gregg.lundberg@starwoodvo.com* and share your concerns about this issue.  Otherwise, it appears that management is just going to ignore the whole thing.

I just tried contacting the BOD by using the starwoodvo.com email format - I will let you know if it works.

*They all bounced back, except one - I will work on email addresses and get back to you.


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## DanCali (May 2, 2010)

YYJMSP said:


> The issue is that WE are the owners, and the operator (SVO) doesn't necessarily have the right to grant access to the property facilities in a manner inconsisent with our documented usage rights, without our (i.e the Board's) consent.  The common areas of the villas are not open to the public.



My suggestion above to contact Beatrice Case may have sounded cynical, but I wasn't joking about raising the issue with the Board.

Gregg is probably polite to owners who email him, but he doesn't really answer to owners. If he hears it from the Board that may have a bigger impact...


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## DeniseM (May 2, 2010)

I tried to email Beatrice using the usual format, and it bounced back.


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## K2Quick (May 3, 2010)

paluamalia said:


> IThese hotels and resorts are part of the community of Lahaina and Maui.  I believe it would be a mistake to close ourselves off from the island residents...whether the 10 foot fence is made of steel, barbed wire, or just our own misgivings.   It is their home, we are the visitors.
> 
> 
> 
> Marie



That's the same reasoning I use when I sneak into the recreational facilities at the Stein Eriksen lodge up at Deer Valley.  After all, it's my home (in some twisted sense of the word).  How dare they shut themselves off from me.


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## Westin5Star (May 3, 2010)

alexadeparis said:


> Sure we are the visitors, but for people that actually own there, it IS their home, too- if only for one week a year. If this were a full time condo development that wasn't a timeshare, there's no way that would be tolerated to have people that didn't live there using the facilities. This is egregious, and completely preventable. As much maintenance fee as they charge you owners, (I am not an owner there), they can hire a few people to police this issue. The beach is public by law, the resort amenities are NOT!



This trip was not the first time that I have observed locals using the facilities; it was just never as obvious (quantity) in the past.  In prior years, I have had and observed locals often using loud and excessive profanity, being very rough with and around young kids, taking water toys that didn't belong to them and then having an attitude when they are asked to give them back, and damaging the Westin property.  While I have seen guests of the hotel do some of these items in the past at various times, I will say that the locals behavior has been excessively bad.  I do not like to stereotype (I have also met some very nice well behaved island residents including one family this past trip that I made friends with), however, most of the problems that I have seen over the years at the Hawaii resorts have been from island residents.  I even observed one taken away in handcuffs last year at WPORV.  If closing our resort off from island residents means not having to subject my family to this outrageous behavior then I am happy to do it!


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## DeniseM (May 3, 2010)

If anyone wants the email address of the one Board Member I was able to send an email to, please click on my name and send me a PM.  This board member is a Starwood Employee.


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## DeniseM (May 4, 2010)

Has anyone else emailed Gregg Lundberg?  

Has anyone received a response from him?


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## DanCali (May 4, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> I tried to email Beatrice using the usual format, and it bounced back.



If you or anyone else has a Facebook account you can probably try that route...


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## LisaRex (May 5, 2010)

Probably the most effective route would be to post an (honest) review on TripAdvisor that calls attention to the issue.   Hotel managers are usually quick to respond to TA issues because of the sheer number of folks who use TA.   This seems to be an ongoing problem that needs to be addressed asap.


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## jerseygirl (May 5, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> Probably the most effective route would be to post an (honest) review on TripAdvisor that calls attention to the issue.   Hotel managers are usually quick to respond to TA issues because of the sheer number of folks who use TA.   This seems to be an ongoing problem that needs to be addressed asap.



Excellent idea!


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## thinze3 (May 5, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> Probably the most effective route would be to post an (honest) review on TripAdvisor that calls attention to the issue.   Hotel managers are usually quick to respond to TA issues because of the sheer number of folks who use TA.   This seems to be an ongoing problem that needs to be addressed asap.


  


Several years ago I stayed at a spanking brand new Marriott Springhill Suites hotel. It was a terrible stay for a variety of reasons. When we returned home I called Marriott to state my complaints, to no avail if I may add. I then logged in to Yahoo Travel and wrote a handy little review of my stay. It was the hotel's very first review on Yahoo.  It took less than a week for that review and any ability to add a new review to be eliminated. Obviously somebody was watching.


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## thinze3 (May 5, 2010)

P.S. - We noticed nothing of the like (too many locals) when we were at WKORV last summer. We did notice a bit of it at KoOlina the following week, however..


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## sjuhawk_jd (May 5, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> Probably the most effective route would be to post an (honest) review on TripAdvisor that calls attention to the issue.   Hotel managers are usually quick to respond to TA issues because of the sheer number of folks who use TA.   This seems to be an ongoing problem that needs to be addressed asap.



Timeshare resorts do not care about Tripadvisor and tripadvisor will remove any posts from the timeshare guests if posted under the adjoining hotel's name.


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## LisaRex (May 5, 2010)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> Timeshare resorts do not care about Tripadvisor and tripadvisor will remove any posts from the timeshare guests if posted under the adjoining hotel's name.



They do care given that they are renting out these units. 

You don't have to say you're an owner when you do a review.   When I posted a review of WKORV, I said I was an owner.  I was sent a note saying that they don't post owner reviews.  Subsequently, I've read many,many reviews from people who've flat stated that they were owners, and yet they were allowed to remain.  Go figure.


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## James1975NY (May 6, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> They do care given that they are renting out these units.
> 
> You don't have to say you're an owner when you do a review.   When I posted a review of WKORV, I said I was an owner.  I was sent a note saying that they don't post owner reviews.  Subsequently, I've read many,many reviews from people who've flat stated that they were owners, and yet they were allowed to remain.  Go figure.



I think any review in any platform that gets attention is going to have an impact. If it doesn't, shame on them. Its the voice of a customer.

There is a golf course across the street from me...I am local...but I live in a tourist area. I guess I should expect to use the facilities for free. I'm going to try that this weekend and see if the paying guests / members have a problem with it.


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## YYJMSP (May 6, 2010)

I inquried at MSC about contacting the Board.

_You may contact the Board of Directors for Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort by email at associationmgmt@starwoodvo.com . You may also write to: 

SVO Management Inc. 
Attn: Board of Directors 
9002 San Marco Ct 
Orlando, FL 32819 

Should you require immediate assistance please contact Association Management at 1-800-729-8246. _


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## DeniseM (May 6, 2010)

I was aware of that address, however, since it goes to Starwood and not directly to the BOD, I wonder how much it is filtered before it reaches the BOD.


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## YYJMSP (May 6, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> I was aware of that address, however, since it goes to Starwood and not directly to the BOD, I wonder how much it is filtered before it reaches the BOD.



That's what I figured as well when I saw the generic email address...


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## Ken555 (May 11, 2010)

Thought I'd update this thread... 

I'm at WKORV this week and have noticed several groups of locals using the facilities. I spoke with one in the jacuzzi who said he worked at the Westin Hotel and got a room here... his family was with him... I've been told at other resorts that employees aren't allowed to stay at the hotel where they work, but using another property is permitted. So, employees at the Westin or Sheraton hotel could get employee rates (...free? almost free?) at WKORV during low occupancy. As is typical in May, the resort feels about 60% occupied, though I'm sure they'd say it's closer to 80-90%. 

FWIW, I don't think it's out of line for Starwood employees to use a sister property, nor for them to offer highly discounted (or even free) stays for them. No doubt it helps morale and does, in a way, give back to the community. However, since this resort is owned by "us" (I'm not a Hawaii owner) unless this feature is in the management documents, then I'm not sure what mechanism is used to permit this. After all, normal use, wear and tear, etc are done to "our" property, not Starwoods. Is Starwood compensating the HOA in any way for these stays?

BTW, weather is fantastic and we got a 2-bed ocean view in building 7 for an II exchange using a SVR week.


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## Fredm (May 12, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> FWIW, I don't think it's out of line for Starwood employees to use a sister property, nor for them to offer highly discounted (or even free) stays for them. No doubt it helps morale and does, in a way, give back to the community. However, since this resort is owned by "us" (I'm not a Hawaii owner) unless this feature is in the management documents, then I'm not sure what mechanism is used to permit this. After all, normal use, wear and tear, etc are done to "our" property, not Starwoods. Is Starwood compensating the HOA in any way for these stays?



I was employed by Marriott for some years.
One of the benefits was employee discounts on hotels, including timeshare villas. Rates varied by property, but usually matched the internal break even rate for the room. At the time (15 years ago) it was between $35-$89. A "friends and family" rate was also available for $59-$109.

I didn't realize how may "friends" I had until I went to work for Marriott.


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## James1975NY (May 12, 2010)

Fredm said:


> I was employed by Marriott for some years.
> One of the benefits was employee discounts on hotels, including timeshare villas. Rates varied by property, but usually matched the internal break even rate for the room. At the time (15 years ago) it was between $35-$89. A "friends and family" rate was also available for $59-$109.
> 
> I didn't realize how may "friends" I had until I went to work for Marriott.



It took a little training with my one sister to explain to her that my job with SVO did not mean I had access to cheap rates at EVERY timeshare in the world. 11 years later in the timeshare industry, she still asks once in a while if I can get her in to resort XYZ during easter week. I just laugh and then she starts laughing and says "I know, I'm terrible."


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## taffy19 (May 13, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> Thought I'd update this thread...
> 
> I'm at WKORV this week and have noticed several groups of locals using the facilities. I spoke with one in the jacuzzi who said he worked at the Westin Hotel and got a room here... his family was with him... I've been told at other resorts that employees aren't allowed to stay at the hotel where they work, but using another property is permitted. So, employees at the Westin or Sheraton hotel could get employee rates (...free? almost free?) at WKORV during low occupancy. As is typical in May, the resort feels about 60% occupied, though I'm sure they'd say it's closer to 80-90%.
> 
> ...





Fredm said:


> I was employed by Marriott for some years.
> One of the benefits was employee discounts on hotels, including timeshare villas. Rates varied by property, but usually matched the internal break even rate for the room. At the time (15 years ago) it was between $35-$89. A "friends and family" rate was also available for $59-$109.
> 
> I didn't realize how may "friends" I had until I went to work for Marriott.


We stayed at a Marriott in Prague and at a local one too not too long ago and at the MOC in Maui just recently.  I heard from several employees that they can travel to all the Marriott hotel & resorts and villas and even for free if they have been there 25 years.  It may also have been 20 years because I don't remember exactly now.  I enjoy listening to them when they tell us where they have visited as they really appreciate this perk.

It is a wonderful perk for the employees so they will keep working there and feel appreciated and part of a team or "family".  In my opinion, it is a win win situation for everyone concerned.  If the employees are treated well, they are loyal to their employer and will treat the customers well too because they want them to be happy.  We notice the same faces at the MOC when we come back and we really like that.

Of course, they should respect the rules of the resort and not be disruptive.  If they are, then management should stop them or they will get complaints from the guests or timeshare owners.  Yes, we pay for the wear and tear but it doesn't matter if it is by an employee, renter, exchanger or by a timeshare owner.  The condo will get wear and tear every time someone stays in the unit.


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## Westin5Star (May 13, 2010)

I don't believe that the problems discussed on this thread were because of some Starwood employee from a hotel in Florida getting a discount and taking a trip with their immediate family to Maui.  

The problems that I have continued to notice over the years (but that were much worse and more evident a couple of weeks ago) were due to people that lived very close to the resort (not accross the ocean) using the resort facilities.  The groups that I talked to during my visit were not Starwood employees and were not receiving some special benefit.  In fact, only one of the groups even had a room (and that was for a one night rental and they were over their occupancy limit at that).

I also will say that my family and I travel very often (at least once per month to different resorts or hotels).  I have not noticed the problem anywhere except for Hawaii.  When we travel to Mexico, Bahamas, Eastern US, Canada, South East, etc. we do not find large groups of local residents taking over the resort, damaging the facilities, and displaying disruptive behavior.  I will give credit to the Hyatt in Poipu (and even the Westin Kaanapali Hotel) for their policies and for not seeing the same problems there that I have experienced at the WKORV.  Even WPORV does a much better job with this problem.

As I have thought about this more, policed mandatory wristbands seems like the only reasonable solution to this problem.  The last few posts seem mostly off topic to the problems that I have experienced and that I reported at the beginning of this thread.  I am curious to see over the coming weeks and months how and if WKORV management is able to reduce and or eliminate this problem.


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## sjuhawk_jd (May 13, 2010)

Westin5Star said:


> The problems that I have continued to notice over the years (but that were much worse and more evident a couple of weeks ago) were due to people that lived very close to the resort (not accross the ocean) using the resort facilities...



I wonder if this is a problem of resort management getting bullied over by local gangsters and are too scared to intervene. Pure speculation here on my behalf!


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## jarta (May 13, 2010)

This thread has certainly deteriorated into haoles vs. those native Hawaiians.

Westin5Star is right.  It's gotten to be off-topic and more about Upstairs, Downstairs and "knowing your place" than bad behavior.  (No excuses for bad behavior from haoles reserving lounges and then going back to bed or or natives toting coolers and being messy - or either being loud and obnoxious.)

Very unfortunate.   ...   eom


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## thheath (May 13, 2010)

jarta said:


> This thread has certainly deteriorated into haoles vs. those native Hawaiians.
> 
> Westin5Star is right.  It's gotten to be off-topic and more about Upstairs, Downstairs and "knowing your place" than bad behavior.  (No excuses for bad behavior from haoles reserving lounges and then going back to bed or or natives toting coolers and being messy - or either being loud and obnoxious.)
> 
> Very unfortunate.   ...   eom



I disagree, it's about owners getting what they paid for.  

Otherwise we'd all go to the beach park and hangout...


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## jarta (May 13, 2010)

thheath,   ...   "I disagree, it's about owners getting what they paid for."

What owners have paid for is the right to use a week at the resort in their season.  The HOA's not depriving any owner of that.

Boorish behavior is another story.  It deprives owners of the right to full enjoyment of their week.  It should not be tolerated - native or haole.  Likewise destructive behavior by anyone should not be tolerated because, in the end, it costs the owners money to repair unnecessary damage.

But, beyond boorish and destructive behavior, an individual owner has no interest in letting in or keeping out those Hawaiian natives - or Joisey natives or Left Coasters.  That's left to the discretion and judgment of the HOA board and management.  You might not agree, but it's not your call (and, IMO, thankfully so).

Would you feel the same way about Bahamians frequenting Harborside or Mexicans frequenting Lagunamar?  And, what about Native Americans frequenting Kierland or Desert Oasis or Mission Hills or Desert Willow?

Now, where the heck did I put my stash of barbed wire?   ...   eom


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## DavidnRobin (May 13, 2010)

thheath said:


> I disagree, it's about owners getting what they paid for.
> 
> Otherwise we'd all go to the beach park and hangout...



Exactly - what is amazing to me are the non-WKORV/N owners defending these practices by outsiders at WKORV/N that do not pay the high and ever increasing MFs there...

WKORV/N Owners that do not write to WKORV/N BOD and SVO and complain (unless they are okay with it) will have no one to blame but themselves when it comes to the added cost paid by the Owners via MFs  - especially when an outsider hurts themselves and sues the HOA because the WKORV/N knew about these activities and did nothing about it.


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## DeniseM (May 13, 2010)

FYI - I never did get another response from the GM, after his first denial (posted above) and the Starwood employee/BOD member did not respond to my email, although I know he got it, because I received an automated response.

If you are a WKORV or WKORVN owner, please send an email to the GM and the BOD.

gregg.lundberg@starwoodvo.com - GM

bruce.mcnish@starwoodvo.com - Starwood employee/BOD member


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## DavidnRobin (May 13, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> FYI - I never did get another response from the GM, after his first denial (posted above) and the Starwood employee/BOD member did not respond to my email, although I know he got it, because I received an automated response.
> 
> If you are a WKORV or WKORVN owner, please send an email to the GM and the BOD.
> 
> ...



Very good advice for those WKORV/N Owners (and others that care about the quality of their vacation at WKORV/N) that oppose outsiders using their resort.

Do not expect a response - or expect a standard form email in return - but do not let that stop you.

As we learned with WSJ - when sufficient numbers of Owners stand-up for themselves - SVO and the HOA BODs will listen.  This is why it is important to write (if you care) - do not sit idlely by and complain - thinking the voices of others wil be heard.  Silence on our part will be taken as acceptance of the situation that will likely get more out of control (if human nature takes its course) with even more outsiders abusing the resort once they realize that there is no enforcement.


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## STEVIE (May 13, 2010)

Do you have to be an owner to complain? I own two weeks at SVV and thought that some time soon I would try for an internal exchange to Maui. But now I don't want to trade to a resort where I will feel uncomfortable. Sue


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## DeniseM (May 13, 2010)

Sue - I see no reason why you can't complain as a concerned SVN member and state that you wanted to exchange into the resort, but now have concerns because of the many reports about trespassers.


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## thheath (May 13, 2010)

jarta said:


> thheath,   ...   "I disagree, it's about owners getting what they paid for."
> 
> What owners have paid for is the right to use a week at the resort in their season.  The HOA's not depriving any owner of that.
> 
> ...



Owners that travel thousands of miles to Hawaii (or anywhere) have the right to enjoy themselves at *their* resort without competing with non-owners for facility space or use.


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## zinger1457 (May 13, 2010)

susgar said:


> Do you have to be an owner to complain? I own two weeks at SVV and thought that some time soon I would try for an internal exchange to Maui. But now I don't want to trade to a resort where I will feel uncomfortable. Sue



I wouldn't let this discussion affect your decision to go to WKORV, this has been blown way out of proportion IMHO.


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## DeniseM (May 13, 2010)

zinger1457 said:


> I wouldn't let this discussion affect your decision to go to WKORV, this has been blown way out of proportion IMHO.



Really?  50 or more trespassers monopolizing the facilities and you think that's blown out of proportion?


> There were many (50 or more) locals here both days. They had ice chests, storage buckets, etc. and used the BBQs and tables all day. *You could not get a table near the BBQs either day prior to 5pm.* When they left the BBQs were dirtier than I have ever seen a BBQ, they had damaged the heating elements, the trash cans were overflowing, and the cement and tables were sticky and full of debris.


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## taffy19 (May 13, 2010)

thheath said:


> Owners that travel thousands of miles to Hawaii (or anywhere) have the right to enjoy themselves at *their* resort without competing with non-owners for facility space or use.


I feel like you that people shouldn't come from the beach and use the premises and do damage too. That has nothing to do if they are locals or tourists but it means that security isn't strict enough at this resort.  It's private property and not a hotel where anyone can wander around.

I agreed with post 74 and 75 where it was commented that Starwood and Marriott employees have the right to stay at some or all of the resorts where their employer is in charge of running the resorts. Let's be honest, most are paid low wages so this will give them an affordable vacation while they work in the industry plus they get the feel for the resort as a guest so can give their employer valuable feedback too.

I remember getting big discounts for the products that our company sold and I was very happy about it and many people receive perks from the company they work for. What is the difference?


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## zinger1457 (May 13, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Really?  50 or more trespassers monopolizing the facilities and you think that's blown out of proportion?



There are over 500 reviews of WKORV on tripadvisor, mostly very positive, show me one that complains about locals taking over the resort.  This has a lot more to do with the frustration (understandable) WKORV owners have with the ever rising maintenance fees and the loss of resale value.


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## thheath (May 13, 2010)

iconnections said:


> I feel like you that people shouldn't come from the beach and use the premises and do damage too. That has nothing to do if they are locals or tourists but it means that security isn't strict enough at this resort.  It's private property and not a hotel where anyone can wander around.
> 
> I agreed with post 74 and 75 where it was commented that Starwood and Marriott employees have the right to stay at some or all of the resorts where their employer is in charge of running the resorts. Let's be honest, most are paid low wages so this will give them an affordable vacation while they work in the industry plus they get the feel for the resort as a guest so can give their employer valuable feedback too.
> 
> I remember getting big discounts for the products that our company sold and I was very happy about it and many people receive perks from the company they work for. What is the difference?



And should they bring 49 of their closest friends too?


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## vacationtime1 (May 13, 2010)

iconnections said:


> I agreed with post 74 and 75 where it was commented that Starwood and Marriott employees have the right to stay at some or all of the resorts where their employer is in charge of running the resorts. Let's be honest, most are paid low wages so this will give them an affordable vacation while they work in the industry plus they get the feel for the resort as a guest so can give their employer valuable feedback too. .....
> 
> What is the difference?




There is a very basic difference between Starwood letting its employees use Starwood facilities and letting its employees use timeshare facilities.  

Starwood owns the hotels under the various Starwood brands (Westin, Sheraton, etc.).  If Starwood wants to invite its employees (or local residents) to use facilities such as the pool at the Westin Hotel, that is Starwood's right.  

However, Starwood does not own WKORV; I own WKORV (along with 15,000 others).  Starwood is only the  management company.   I have the right to invite guests to my property; Starwood does  not.

Please note that I, a WKORV owner, am not entitled to use the pool at the Westin Hotel when staying at WKORV.


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## Westin5Star (May 13, 2010)

zinger1457 said:


> This has a lot more to do with the frustration (understandable) WKORV owners have with the ever rising maintenance fees and the loss of resale value.



Since I am the one that made the first post about this topic, I thought I should respond to your comment.  I don't have a problem with our MFs being too high.  I want great service which I only occassionally get at Starwood TSs (and I ussually stay about 10 weeks a year).  I wish they would charge higher MFs and give better service!  I do agree that the MFs are currently too high given the level of service.  Starwood if you are reading PLEASE raise my MFs and give me great service!  I don't say this to turn this into a MF thread but rather to prove that this has nothing to do with MFs.  There are many threads that discuss MFs if you would like to do that.

This thread was started to discuss the problem of non-guests using the facilities while preventing owners from using them, creating a very big and unsightly mess, breaking things, being loud while using profanity, etc.  Many have seen this problem and complained about this; yet it continues.  I hope that Starwood is reading this and or enough guests read it and complain in order to make a difference by the board and management.  I would prefer that this thread be kept on topic.


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## LisaRex (May 13, 2010)

zinger1457 said:


> There are over 500 reviews of WKORV on tripadvisor, mostly very positive, show me one that complains about locals taking over the resort.  This has a lot more to do with the frustration (understandable) WKORV owners have with the ever rising maintenance fees and the loss of resale value.



Ahem. I wouldn't want locals taking over my local campground, where I pay $35/night, and hogging the grills and taking over the pool and showers.  They should be reserved for paying customers. 

Has the problem been exaggerated?  Perhaps.  Certainly Westin5Star comes across as a reasonable person.  So while I'm personally not going to write a letter based on another person's situation, I'll certainly make a stink to the GM should I witness anything like Westin5Star described in her OP.


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## taffy19 (May 13, 2010)

thheath said:


> And should they bring 49 of their closest friends too?


No. Can you, as a timeshare owner, do this? I doubt it because it would hurt the condos and common areas too no matter what name is on the resort. When you have big parties, there is a chance that a lot of alcolhol is consumed and people get loud and careless. No resort wants this to happen on their premises. I know that Starwood owners pay a lot of maintenance fees and do not want to pay even more and I can understand that.  It is your resort.

Personally, I feel that this perk to the resort employees is a nice gesture from the resort.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I don't mind sharing our resort with the Marriott employees, if there is room but not with 49 of their closest friends.


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## DavidnRobin (May 14, 2010)

Westin5Star is certainly a reasonable person  - go back and read any of his almost 500 posts (certainly more reasonable than me).  I only partially agree with him regarding the MFs.  I would be okay with the current MFs if we received the service that reflected these fees. (and transparency)

Based on his unfortunate experience - and others reporting - I give it very high credence.  I myself have never witnessed this occuring - although I have come across many rude patrons (unfortunately).  But I can easily see how it could happen without Security enforcement (looking the other way) - and the local culture of feeling entitled. I can easily see how it can be enforced using current Security since there are only a few pathways that would used by outsiders.

Maui county is already providing a very nice public park next door - that uses tax payers money to maintain - we help pay those property taxes (highest % of any group).  If someones opinion that this is a nice perk for employees to use WKORV/N - fine - they have that right.  They can even write management supporting employess/locals using WKORV/N.

However, I strongly disagree - and a believe a very large majority of Owners (that pay to maintain WKORV/N) would also not be in favor of allowing this if they were aware of what is being reported here.

You can spend 10 minutes to send an email - or you can stay quiet - and hope it goes away (or you don't care).  I just hope when we visit in December - I am not wasting my vacation time dealing with these activities and having to seek out management.  I would rather be enjoying myself and getting the most out of my $3000 MFs (and sunsets on the lanai).


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## spuppy (May 14, 2010)

I think the difference is that the employees work for starwood--not for the resort owners.

I understand Starwood's incentive to sell something at a discount that isn't theirs to begin with.  It allows them to pay lower wages and benefits than they otherwise would, and they even make money in the process.

From the owner point of view, it adds to the wear and tear of the resort, increases our annual maintenance fees, and exacerbates crowding.  If by skill or luck, I visit the resort when occupancy is low, I want to enjoy the lack of crowds.  I don't want to compete for chairs, grills and other resort amenities with starwood's employees.



iconnections said:


> I feel like you that people shouldn't come from
> 
> I remember getting big discounts for the products that our company sold and I was very happy about it and many people receive perks from the company they work for. What is the difference?


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## califgal (May 14, 2010)

It's never ok for a non-paying person(s) to crash a resort, even more outrageous is a large group making a mess of the place like Westin5star observed. It's never acceptable for paying customers to trash a resort.  Entitlement is not acceptale either.  If it is acceptable as some people indicate in their posts, then as a "local" I think I'll bring a large group of friends to the Sherton Palace Hotel in SF and have my own party in the lobby complete with a cooler of drinks and leave trash all over the place!


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## Ken555 (May 14, 2010)

So far, I have noticed a group Sunday night and a small family as I reported earlier visiting the pools, who said he worked for the Westin hotel on Maui. Since then the resort has been quite calm. I'll update if I see anything else this weekend.

And, for those who didn't follow my earlier post, I question not whether Starwood should let employees stay at reduced prices, but whether or not the owners are compensated in any way. That's why I referenced wear and tear... If the unit is empty there will be no additional wear and tear and no income, so if there's some revenue I hope there is a portion going to the HOA.

Great weather this week. We went on the America II racing sailboat today, and that was a great ride which I highly recommend.


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## DavidnRobin (May 14, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> Great weather this week. We went on the America II racing sailboat today, and that was a great ride which I highly recommend.



That sounds great - I hope that is still going on in Dec.


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## Westin5Star (May 14, 2010)

DavidnRobin said:


> Westin5Star is certainly a reasonable person  - go back and read any of his almost 500 posts.



David, have you looked at my Avatar lately?  Does that look like a reasonable person?


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## Westin5Star (May 14, 2010)

Ken, thanks for reporting back.  I am so glad to hear that the problem that I experienced has been greatly diminished.  The vast majority of the problems that I saw was on Saturday and Sunday.  I hope that we can count on other TUG member to observe and relay the progress.  Maybe and hopefully Starwood heard our complaints and is working the problem.  If so, thank you and good job Starwood.  

On a side note, I hope that you are having a great week.  I'm jealous that I am not there with you this week.  Be sure to check out Safari Boat Adventures around Lanai.  We did it again last week and it was amazing; check it out on Trip Advisor.  Its almost as good as the Power Boat Adventures that we did with you last year in the Bahamas.


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## Ken555 (May 14, 2010)

Westin5Star said:


> Ken, thanks for reporting back.  I am so glad to hear that the problem that I experienced has been greatly diminished.  The vast majority of the problems that I saw was on Saturday and Sunday.  I hope that we can count on other TUG member to observe and relay the progress.  Maybe and hopefully Starwood heard our complaints and is working the problem.  If so, thank you and good job Starwood.



I'll be here through this weekend, so I'll post again with an update.



> On a side note, I hope that you are having a great week.  I'm jealous that I am not there with you this week.  Be sure to check out Safari Boat Adventures around Lanai.  We did it again last week and it was amazing; check it out on Trip Advisor.  Its almost as good as the Power Boat Adventures that we did with you last year in the Bahamas.



Wow, that's some comparison. I doubt we'll have time this trip for another excursion, but I'll put it on the list for next time! (Which I now have to reserve...).


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## Ken555 (May 14, 2010)

DavidnRobin said:


> That sounds great - I hope that is still going on in Dec.



I'm fairly sure it will be - I think it's been here for many years. 

http://www.sailingonmaui.com/


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## Henry M. (May 14, 2010)

I second the Safari Boat Excursions recommendation from Westin5Star (http://safariboatexcursions.com/). We did it early last year and it was great. It takes you to some pretty pristine locations so the snorkeling is excellent and the views are great. 

Someone recommended going Thursday to Saturday, as the captain on those days is said to be funnier. I went one of those days and the captain was a big part of the enjoyment.


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## jarta (May 14, 2010)

Ahem, isn't all the recent talk of boat excursions drifting this thread off topic?  

However, maybe there is not much more to say about raucous native Hawaiians running wild at the facilities of WKORV and ruining the vacations of our melting pot of SVO members.   ...   eom


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## gravitar (May 14, 2010)

vacationtime1 said:


> There is a very basic difference between Starwood letting its employees use Starwood facilities and letting its employees use timeshare facilities.
> 
> Starwood owns the hotels under the various Starwood brands (Westin, Sheraton, etc.).  If Starwood wants to invite its employees (or local residents) to use facilities such as the pool at the Westin Hotel, that is Starwood's right.



Actually Starwood actually owns very few, if any now, of the hotels it manages. Most are owned by trusts or other entities and they have management contracts to operate them. Many Starwood properties are owned AND operated as franchisees and Starwood has no day to day interest in the property. As part of the operating agreement, franchise employees have benefits that include employee rates at Starwood Hotels and Resorts, this may or may not include the timeshares.

Has anyone read the management agreement between Starwood and the individual properties to see if this hotel employee benefit is extended to Starwood and Franchise operated hotel properties?

Steve


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## vacationtime1 (May 14, 2010)

gravitar said:


> Actually Starwood actually owns very few, if any now, of the hotels it manages. Most are owned by trusts or other entities and they have management contracts to operate them. Many Starwood properties are owned AND operated as franchisees and Starwood has no day to day interest in the property. As part of the operating agreement, franchise employees have benefits that include employee rates at Starwood Hotels and Resorts, this may or may not include the timeshares.
> 
> Has anyone read the management agreement between Starwood and the individual properties to see if this hotel employee benefit is extended to Starwood and Franchise operated hotel properties?
> 
> Steve



It is true that most hotel chains do not actually own the buildings bearing the hotel brand; they are managed under contracts that act as master leases for the various properties.  But it doesn't matter; the management company "answers" to the property owners only in the form of rental income paid and proper maintenance of the properties.  Day-to-day management (reservations, rules, rates, employee relationship, etc.) is done entirely by the hotel corporation.

My question remains:  *Why does Starwood prevent me (and the public) from using the pool at the Westin Maui Hotel while permitting its employees (and apparently the public) to use the facilities at WKORV?*

If, as suggested, the management agreement between Starwood and WKORV gives Starwood employees rights to use WKORV which are not reciprocal for WKORV owners, it is yet another example of gross overreaching by Starwood, something our BOD should be addressing on our behalf.

*If WKORV were a condominium development rather than a timeshare development, no one would seriously argue that the HOA's management company's employees (or the public) should be permitted to come on the property and use the facilities.  Why should it be any different for timeshares?*


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## YYJMSP (May 14, 2010)

vacationtime1 said:


> *If WKORV were a condominium development rather than a timeshare development, no one would seriously argue that the HOA's management company's employees (or the public) should be permitted to come on the property and use the facilities.  Why should it be any different for timeshares?*



Isn't a timeshare really a condo?  I think some of the associations on our other properties specifically call themselves "xxx Condominium Association" or something along those lines...


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## Fredm (May 14, 2010)

vacationtime1 said:


> *If WKORV were a condominium development rather than a timeshare development, no one would seriously argue that the HOA's management company's employees (or the public) should be permitted to come on the property and use the facilities.  Why should it be any different for timeshares?*



Because of the Apartment 101 rules at KOR.
This gives the developer an almost unlimited right to do whatever it wants, so long as it does not infringe on the ability of an owner to use the place.


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## J&JFamily (May 14, 2010)

jarta said:


> Ahem, isn't all the recent talk of boat excursions drifting this thread off topic?
> 
> However, maybe there is not much more to say about raucous native Hawaiians running wild at the facilities of WKORV and ruining the vacations of our melting pot of SVO members.   ...   eom



Talking about boat excursions in this thread does not violate any of the TUG BBS rules, so if you are not interested just read past it (obviously you do care because you took the time to respond).  The rest of us learn a lot from reading throughout the thread and don't mind a "little sidebar".  eom


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## DeniseM (May 14, 2010)

> This thread has certainly deteriorated into haoles vs. those native Hawaiians.
> 
> .....It's gotten to be off-topic and more about Upstairs, Downstairs and "knowing your place" than bad behavior.





> However, maybe there is not much more to say about raucous native Hawaiians running wild at the facilities of WKORV and ruining the vacations of our melting pot of SVO members


Hawaii has the most diverse population of any state in the US.  The largest ethnic group is Japanese, and the 2nd largest is Caucasian - there are actually very few "Native Hawaiians."   So trying to twist people's words to make this thread appear to be racially motivated really doesn't make any sense.  

As always, if a thread violates the TUG posting rules, please report it.  Otherwise, attack the issues, and not other poster - don't make it personal.


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## thheath (May 14, 2010)

As I might have mentioned before this type of problem is common here in Hawaii.  Resorts and hotels are VERY sensitive to the locals, even if it's detrimental to the owners/guests.  Additionally keep in mind that it's mainly other locals who run the establishments.  Locals know this and take advantage of the situation.


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## LisaRex (May 14, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Because of the Apartment 101 rules at KOR.
> This gives the developer an almost unlimited right to do whatever it wants, so long as it does not infringe on the ability of an owner to use the place.



I think that in the case of the OP, one could argue that it is infringing on the ability of the owners to use their own grills and pools.

I'll be there in a little over a month and will be happy to report back.


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## Fredm (May 14, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> I think that in the case of the OP, one could argue that it is infringing on the ability of the owners to use their own grills and pools.



I do not disagree, in principal.

Just explaining how it is different than a private condo association.


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## vacationtime1 (May 14, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Because of the Apartment 101 rules at KOR.
> This gives the developer an almost unlimited right to do whatever it wants, so long as it does not infringe on the ability of an owner to use the place.



Fred is probably correct on this (he usually is), but then I will reiterate my previous point:



vacationtime1 said:


> If, as suggested, the management agreement between Starwood and WKORV gives Starwood employees rights to use WKORV which are not reciprocal for WKORV owners, it is yet another example of gross overreaching by Starwood, something our BOD should be addressing on our behalf.



Starwood is taking advantage of its timeshare owners yet again.


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## DavidnRobin (May 14, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> FYI - I never did get another response from the GM, after his first denial (posted above) and the Starwood employee/BOD member did not respond to my email, although I know he got it, because I received an automated response.
> 
> If you are a WKORV or WKORVN owner, please send an email to the GM and the BOD.
> 
> ...



teri.castleberry@starwoodvo.com
Teri Castleberry
SR DIRECTOR, BOARD RELATIONS & RESIDENTIAL PROJECTS


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## oneohana (May 14, 2010)

Be nice, we are going to be there at the end of the month with a large group. I will have a cooler, plates, towels, and take up the BBQ area and can pass as a "local". I wonder if security will help me bring all the stuff down.


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## Westin5Star (May 15, 2010)

jarta said:


> Ahem, isn't all the recent talk of boat excursions drifting this thread off topic?



Jarta was right in that I was hypocritical in mentioning the boat excursion immediately after asking folks to keep this thread on topic.  I should have PM'd Ken about the boat excursion and not posted it here.  I am sorry for not staying within what I had asked others to do.  It was wrong of me.


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## Westin5Star (May 15, 2010)

Thank you to all of your Tug members for being willing to observe and report back while you are at WKORV.  I look forward to reading about this in the coming weeks and months.  I really hope that Starwood has heard our complaints and now has policies and procedures in place that will prevent such problems in the future.


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## thheath (May 15, 2010)

If they don't respond to owner's concerns I would advise them that owners are going to take pictures and video of the issues and post them on YouTube.  Who knows, photos and video combined with a good theme and catchy song might go viral.  

Remember the "United Breaks Guitars" video?  I'm sure United wishes they could take that one back, lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo

8.5+ million views


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## DavidnRobin (May 15, 2010)

Westin5Star said:


> Jarta was right in that I was hypocritical in mentioning the boat excursion immediately after asking folks to keep this thread on topic.  I should have PM'd Ken about the boat excursion and not posted it here.  I am sorry for not staying within what I had asked others to do.  It was wrong of me.



NO SOUP FOR YOU!
LOL - talking about kettle=pot=black

you look like me in your photo - except much more handsome  
{and definitely without the GB nut-hugging...} :ignore: 
...but I still look forward to that drink...

and to keep within the thread rules (like mixing metaphors) - I did write SVO about this (critical, yet constructive) - and will post if I receive any comments (which I doubt).


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## YYJMSP (May 15, 2010)

DavidnRobin said:


> and to keep within the thread rules (like mixing metaphors) - I did write SVO about this (critical, yet constructive) - and will post if I receive any comments (which I doubt).



I sent off a note as well the other day, for which I got a read receipt.  We'll see if there's any response...


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## Ken555 (May 15, 2010)

Morning from windy Maui. One party last night of about 15 people on the first floor by the north pool that spread out from their unit to common area. No idea if all were from mainland or not, no idea how many units they had. Given that the resort isn't crowded, it also wasn't any issue for us or others that I could see.


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## Westin5Star (May 15, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> Morning from windy Maui. One party last night of about 15 people on the first floor by the north pool that spread out from their unit to common area. No idea if all were from mainland or not, no idea how many units they had. Given that the resort isn't crowded, it also wasn't any issue for us or others that I could see.



The groups that I met and talked with arrived between 10am-12pm and stayed until almost 5pm.  Many of them just sat at the tables near the BBQs while others in the party were using the pools.  Each group was using several BBQs and the BBQs were on all day.  I'm glad to hear that you did not experience similar problems today.


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## Ken555 (May 15, 2010)

Westin5Star said:


> The groups that I met and talked with arrived between 10am-12pm and stayed until almost 5pm.  Many of them just sat at the tables near the BBQs while others in the party were using the pools.  Each group was using several BBQs and the BBQs were on all day.  I'm glad to hear that you did not experience similar problems today.



Well, today was different. Lots of locals at the south pool, taking over a jacuzzi and more. On the north side, there was a group near the far north BBQ area (by building 8). For the first time ever, we were asked for blue wristbands to use the water slide. There was definitely a different feel to the resort today as compared to the rest of the week. I'm here until Monday so will update about tomorrow as well.


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## DeniseM (May 15, 2010)

Does security seem to be doing anything?  Are they visible?  Are the non-guests getting towels and wrist bands from the pool shack?  Could you  post some pictures?


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## Ken555 (May 16, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Does security seem to be doing anything?



Yes...security has been quick to tell us that glass and wine are not permitted by the BBQ area. And, they told me to slow down driving...as I paced the Westin shuttle returning to the resort. Effective, aren't they?



> Are they visible?



Yes, actually. And they don't seem to be doing much. Though I did see a couple help the pool guys move the lounges back at the end of the day...



> Are the non-guests getting towels and wrist bands from the pool shack?



They seemed to have towels and bands, but not all were by the pool. So, I'm not sure.



> Could you  post some pictures?



No. I'm really not here for investigative work. For all I know they have rooms and are paying guests. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.


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## jarta (May 16, 2010)

Until someone verifies that nobody has paid for a room, isn't this discussion about non-paying guests a little inane.

A few months ago all the discussion on TUG was for more rentals to be made.  If they are, but to locals, what's the beef - that they have a better tan?   ...   eom


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## zinger1457 (May 16, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> No. I'm really not here for investigative work. For all I know they have rooms and are paying guests. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.



Sounds sensible but why even bring this up if you're not sure?


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## thheath (May 16, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> Yes...security has been quick to tell us that glass and wine are not permitted by the BBQ area. And, they told me to slow down driving...as I paced the Westin shuttle returning to the resort. Effective, aren't they?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Didn't you offer to report events?


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## DeniseM (May 16, 2010)

Ken - thanks for the update.  I can understand that you wouldn't want to get into an awkward situation, and I withdraw my request for pictures.

If local residents are renting units and enjoying the facilities within the limits of room occupancy - more power to them.  If they are renting 1 unit and inviting many friends to join them to use the facilities, that is obviously a violation of the resort rules, and should not be tolerated.  

It sounds like things are better than they were when Westin5star was there.  Hopefully, management and security have gotten the message, and they are getting a handle on the problem.

However, as an owner at this resort, I am certainly not going to ignore this situation, and I am going to keep this issue open here on TUG, until I feel that it's been resolved.  

If some of you don't care to read about this issue - then don't, but please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't discuss, when I'm the one paying $2,340 a week in maintenance fees.


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## Westin5Star (May 16, 2010)

jarta said:


> Until someone verifies that nobody has paid for a room, isn't this discussion about non-paying guests a little inane.
> 
> A few months ago all the discussion on TUG was for more rentals to be made.  If they are, but to locals, what's the beef - that they have a better tan?   ...   eom



I thought I made it pretty clear in my initial posts that I did verify that the groups were non-paying guests.  I talked to them quite a bit actually.  They even thanked me for visiting the island.  I did talk to on family that had a room that the wife had won as an incentive from her employer (this family was very nice, well behaved, and happened the week after we noticed the main problem).  I want to reiterate that I am sure that the large groups that I witnessed creating problems were not guests of the TS!


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## Westin5Star (May 16, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> Well, today was different. Lots of locals at the south pool, taking over a jacuzzi and more. On the north side, there was a group near the far north BBQ area (by building 8). For the first time ever, we were asked for blue wristbands to use the water slide. There was definitely a different feel to the resort today as compared to the rest of the week. I'm here until Monday so will update about tomorrow as well.



This was exactly what I had experienced.  The weekdays were pretty calm; very nice and relaxing.  On Saturday and Sunday the facilities were overrun by non-guests!  I guess this problem has not been taken care of.  I will also say that I saw security being very useless at the resort even talking to the non-guests!


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## Ken555 (May 16, 2010)

zinger1457 said:


> Sounds sensible but why even bring this up if you're not sure?



Just trying to help. But I have limits, which should be self explanatory given my statement. Seems you didn't get that.


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## Ken555 (May 16, 2010)

thheath said:


> Didn't you offer to report events?



And haven't I? LOL


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## Ken555 (May 16, 2010)

jarta said:


> Until someone verifies that nobody has paid for a room, isn't this discussion about non-paying guests a little inane.
> 
> A few months ago all the discussion on TUG was for more rentals to be made.  If they are, but to locals, what's the beef - that they have a better tan?   ...   eom



Jim, you've missed the entire point. Again.


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## jarta (May 16, 2010)

Ken,   ...   "Jim, you've missed the entire point. Again."

Your post No. 130:  "For all I know they have rooms and are paying guests. Innocent until proven guilty and all that."

My post was No. 131.  The one right after your post above.  That's when I said further discussion about non-paying guests being at WKORV was a little inane until we find out nobody paid for a room.

What was the point I missed about your post?  Maybe you were joking and you feel Hawaiians should be presumed guilty of trespassing even if they are paying guests or invitees?

Westin5Star said the persons he met were non-paying.  I believe him.  I do not believe the people he met were joking.  But, I also do not know that they were not invitees of the resort.

You, on the other hand, don't seem to know whether the people you observed were paying guests or not.  You were reporting them here merely for being Hawaiian and being on the premises.

I still believe that the obnoxious behavior described by Westin5Star is unacceptable - and would be so even if the people he saw and spoke to were paying guests or resort invitees.  

And, I believe that generally the use of the resort facilities should be for paying guests.  But, I also believe the HOA board is given broad discretion to allow exceptions.  

And, I strongly believe that if exceptions are being made that the HOA board does not know of or approve of, there needs to be a new head of security at the resort.  But, that's quite a leap from merely being Hawaiian and being on the premises.

Finally, I know how much you love WKORV.  You only want the best for a place you love.  And, from other discussions with you, I know your heart is in the right place.  But, IMO and very out of character, you were painting with too broad a brush.   ...   eom


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## DeniseM (May 16, 2010)

> You, on the other hand, don't seem to know whether the people you observed were paying guests or not. You were reporting them here merely for being Hawaiian and being on the premises.



I don't understand why you keep accusing posters of singling out "Hawaiians."  Only 9% of the residents of Hawaii are Hawaiian.  No one that lives in the state of Hawaii would call themselves "Hawaiian" unless they have Hawaiian blood.  Since the largest ethnic groups in Hawaii are Asian (40%) Caucasian (25%), and two or more races (18%) it would be very difficult to determine who is a local resident, based on ethnicity alone, so it makes no sense for you to continue try to make this look like racial profiling.


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## Ken555 (May 16, 2010)

jarta said:


> But, IMO and very out of character, you were painting with too broad a brush.   ...   eom



I think you need to read my posts again... If anything, my posts on this issue are more balanced than most of the other comments.

And, to clarify, I never stated if locals were Hawaiian or not. I heard a family talk about local schools and their kids had local school names on shirts, etc. Though some of you seem to want more, I'm not about to go around asking people why or how they came to be permitted to be at the resort. That's not my place, and frankly, it's not anyone else's, either - even if you are an owner. Writing to management is the proper behavior for owners who are concerned, but anything further is out of line IMO. I'm happy to report what I see, and that's all. And to be fair - as I always try to be - that's why I wrote earlier that I don't know if guests at the resort are paying guests or not.


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## Ken555 (May 16, 2010)

Just to update... today was busier at both north and south resorts. Very peaceful and quiet by building 8 and the BBQ area (which my building 7 unit looks out over) today. No issues at all that I could see today.


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## zinger1457 (May 17, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> If some of you don't care to read about this issue - then don't, but please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't discuss, when I'm the one paying $2,340 a week in maintenance fees.



Finally, someone gets to the point of all this.


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## DeniseM (May 17, 2010)

zinger1457 said:


> Finally, someone gets to the point of all this.



So you're saying if maintenance fees were low, I'd be happy to have trespassers on the property???


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## zinger1457 (May 17, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> So you're saying if maintenance fees were low, I'd be happy to have trespassers on the property???



Trespassers???  We certainly wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of a good story now would we.


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## vacationtime1 (May 17, 2010)

zinger1457 said:


> Trespassers???  We certainly wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of a good story now would we.



Which facts?

That Starwood is not taking care of its owners by permitting maintenance fees to soar out of control?

Or, that Starwood is not taking care of its owners by permitting its employees and/or locals to use the property facilities to the detriment of the owners?


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## DeniseM (May 17, 2010)

zinger1457 said:


> Trespassers???  We certainly wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of a good story now would we.



Zinger - If you have some facts, we'd love to hear them.  What's your personal experience with this resort?  You aren't an owner at this resort, and you aren't there now, but you know what's going on, and the people who are there seeing it with their own eyes, don't?


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## rickandcindy23 (May 17, 2010)

When you see people walking down the path near the ocean, kids in tow, coolers in hand, lots of odd beachtowels (not from the resort), and they saunter to the lounge chairs and pool, it's pretty certain these are not resort guests.  

I am saying what I saw, especially our last couple of days there.  The pools were incredibly busy those few days, with many more people than were there a few days before.  

The evidence is overwhelming.  The locals are using the pools, and they aren't even making any secret of it.  And Denise is right, all of you who think this is racial profiling, because it isn't.  The "locals" doesn't mean "natives."


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## zinger1457 (May 18, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Zinger - If you have some facts, we'd love to hear them.  What's your personal experience with this resort?  You aren't an owner at this resort, and you aren't there now, but you know what's going on, and the people who are there seeing it with their own eyes, don't?



That's correct but you are an owner and have never reported this problem during all of you're trips but you are quick to push all of this gloom and doom without seeing it for yourself.  I certainly didn't see anything like this during my visit and it seems like 500+ tripadvisor reviewers haven't seen it either.  It's certainly likely that some outsiders may be using the facilities without permission, it's just my belief based on what's been said this issue has been way over blown.  Most of these reports of 'local' sightings end with stating that they may actually be staying in rooms at the resort, or are guest of employees, certainly not trespassers.


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## Westin5Star (May 18, 2010)

zinger1457 said:


> That's correct but you are an owner and have never reported this problem during all of you're trips but you are quick to push all of this gloom and doom without seeing it for yourself.  I certainly didn't see anything like this during my visit and it seems like 500+ tripadvisor reviewers haven't seen it either.  It's certainly likely that some outsiders may be using the facilities without permission, it's just my belief based on what's been said this issue has been way over blown.  Most of these reports of 'local' sightings end with stating that they may actually be staying in rooms at the resort, or are guest of employees, certainly not trespassers.



Zinger,
Unless the people that I talked to in several groups were lying to me, they were non-guests and locals.  One lady had blond hair and blue eyes so it had nothing to do with them being "native".  It seems that the majority of the problems are happening on Saturday and Sunday which Ken also experienced this past weekend.  I would prefer that my MFs are increased along with improved service.  Unless you feel that I am not telling the truth, your comments are without merit.  This is not said as a pesonal attack but as FACT!


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## mlsmn (May 18, 2010)

When I was there in April for 2 weeks both Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays had an influx of poorly behaved kids, rowdy barbecue area with multiple b-day parties and fooling around in the pool.

It was almost like the south pool area had been taken over like it was spring break in Florida.

Where did these people come from?

Before Friday they weren't there and after Sunday they were gone.


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## DavidnRobin (May 18, 2010)

Please write to SVO-WKORV/N about this (if you care) - they may not be responding to emails, but they are receiving them.  Our voices can count.

Someone is claiming that if you do not see it with your own eyes - then it doesn't warrant response?  Really...?  I am going with the observations of those I trust here on TUG based on years of interactions....

This is not an issue of racial profiling (whether it is or isn't - isn't the point) - this is about outsiders using facilities that Owners pay for - and the liability we take on.


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## DeniseM (May 18, 2010)

zinger1457 said:


> That's correct but you are an owner and have never reported this problem during all of you're trips but you are quick to push all of this gloom and doom without seeing it for yourself.




#1 - It is common knowledge among the regulars on this forum that we have rented our Maui week out for the last several years.  Previous to that, this was not happening.

#2 - I trust and respect the regulars on this forum who have been there recently and have reported what they have seen themselves.



> Most of these reports of 'local' sightings end with stating that they may actually be staying in rooms at the resort, or are *guest of employees, certainly not trespassers.*


#3 - I am not paying $2,340 a year in maintenance fees to entertain guests of employees.


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## zinger1457 (May 18, 2010)

Westin5Star said:


> Zinger,
> Unless the people that I talked to in several groups were lying to me, they were non-guests and locals.  One lady had blond hair and blue eyes so it had nothing to do with them being "native".  It seems that the majority of the problems are happening on Saturday and Sunday which Ken also experienced this past weekend.  I would prefer that my MFs are increased along with improved service.  Unless you feel that I am not telling the truth, your comments are without merit.  This is not said as a pesonal attack but as FACT!



I've never questioned the truth of what you saw and said but some of the other reported sightings of 'locals' were very sketchy and seemed to be jumping to conclusions.  I'm not sure who started the native/local discussion but it wasn't me, I never made any reference to natives and I'm well aware of the make up of Hawaiian residents.  I guess what bothered me is when one of the posters stated that they were considering canceling their trip to Maui because of concerns based on all this discussion.  Seems a little ridiculous to me based on my experience at the resort and all the reviews I've read.  I was somewhat surprised that no one responded to this except to tell them that they could send in a complaint to Starwood.  

But, this has been beaten to death and I've said my part so I'll stop being a pain in the a**.  I'm at the Westin Lagunamar this week, wonderful resort, well laid out and all rooms seems to have a nice ocean view.


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## Westin5Star (May 18, 2010)

Zinger,

I agree with you that WKORV is a very nice resort.  Many, myself included, have observed a major shift in non-guests being on premises and causing problems lately and it appears this is mostly isolated to the weekends.  We are voicing our concerns here, to Starwood managment, and the BOD in hopes to put an end to the problem.  We want to keep this a nice resort and that would not happen if what I observed was allowed to continue.

I hope that you enjoy your time in WLR.  We will be there in a few weeks (hopefully with pools that are not freezing).


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## jnsywg (May 18, 2010)

This is not a new problem. When we were there in January 2009 I was shocked at how many staff had there kids at the Pirate pool on the weekends.



Westin5Star said:


> Zinger,
> 
> I agree with you that WKORV is a very nice resort.  Many, myself included, have observed a major shift in non-guests being on premises and causing problems lately and it appears this is mostly isolated to the weekends.  We are voicing our concerns here, to Starwood managment, and the BOD in hopes to put an end to the problem.  We want to keep this a nice resort and that would not happen if what I observed was allowed to continue.


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## Ken555 (May 18, 2010)

I'm back from Maui now (after a 4-hour United delay at Maui... returning to LA at 1am...) and can report that Sunday was a bit quieter than Saturday. The weekends definitely seemed to have, overall, more people at all the pools. I'm not sure if this was due to higher occupancy - perhaps guests for a long weekend? - or local use. But, on multiple occasions I saw families (on occasion, with coolers and non-Westin towels) and teens and children with local school names on their shirts. While not many, keep in mind that very few families take their teens to Hawaii in May, so indirectly this made me think they were local, as well. 

In any case, during the week the resort was calm and great. I'm happy to say service was better than normal and I saw maintenance painting the BBQ area near building 8, so it appears the resort is being maintained well.


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## YYJMSP (May 18, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> #3 - I am not paying $2,340 a year in maintenance fees to entertain guests of employees.



Given that the employees are not "staying" there, guests of employees are not "valid" users of the property by any stretch of the imagination...  Hmmm, I know someone who owns at the Marriott villas, so perhaps I'm entitled to take my gang of 17 down there for the day and use the facilities if he says I can.

Personally, I will definitely be willing to raise a bit of a stink with property management if this weekend invasion happens when we're there in July.


BTW, I pay almost $4500 a year in MFs at WKORV/WKORVN; therefore, I'm about twice as concerned as DeniseM about this whole issue...


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## alotofgolf (May 18, 2010)

Has anyone sent an email to the GM and received an answer back?


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## DeniseM (May 18, 2010)

alotofgolf said:


> Has anyone sent an email to the GM and received an answer back?



Yes - I posted his response in post #28 - he denied that anything was going on.  Westin5Star also talked to him in person - see post #37.


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## Westin5Star (May 18, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Yes - I posted his response in post #28 - he denied that anything was going on.  Westin5Star also talked to him in person - see post #37.



I'm sorry Denise that I was not clear enough in my post.  It really isn't that important but the conversation that I had while at the resort took place over the phone from my room.  He returned my call at my room.  I had tried the front desk a couple of times but he was unavailable each time I tried.


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## jarta (May 19, 2010)

Westin5Star,   ...   I think posters are losing memory about your phone conversation with the manager in post #37.

"The resort was obviously already aware of the problem and have been taking steps to work on it. I explained that I felt the best and most appropriate solution is to check for room information (room keys) from guests. Obviously this would only need to be done for large parties and those with big tubs / ice chests, etc. The resort also already had signs ordered that will be posted as well as information about the problem in the room letters. I'm not sure the signs or letters will really do any good though. 

The manager was aware of the problem and is very concerned. I believe that the staff and security will be trained / retrained to look out for this problem and take care of it in the future. Based on my conversation about the steps being taken, I doubt we will see any such problems in the near future. If we do, I definitely feel like WKORV will quickly address and take care of the problem."

Perhaps the WKORV manager was stirred from his slumber by Denise's email.  But, Denise was complaining about "large employee hosted parties."

"I’m not sure what you are referring to as large employee hosted parties. Our policy here at the property, and with Starwood as a company, is and has always been that employees are not allowed to stay at the property they work in. There are always unique exceptions, but those are approved through my office, and I have never approved large groups of any kind.

Too my knowledge, what you have described has not occurred at either KOR or KORN."

It seems Denise and you were complaining about different problems.  Denise about employee parties; you about people walking in and the possibility of employee parties.  Different questions can result in different answers.

However, the title of this thread when started by you is:  "Employees/non-guests hosting parties at WKORV/WKORVN?"

"Private property - no trespassing signs" at the start of the resort property on the beach side is a good start.  Free use of a pool, hot tub and barbecue grills is obviously tempting.  Continued problems should result in a new security manager or company.  (BTW, I have seen very approving TUG posts about "walk-ins" at the exclusive Cove pool area at Atlantis by Harborside guests.  I have to admit my wife and I have snuck into the Cove pool area.  Sometimes those amenities are very tempting.)   ...   eom


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## alotofgolf (May 19, 2010)

Sent a message to the POA. Will post response.


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## DeniseM (May 19, 2010)

Just for clarification - I sent the GM a 2nd email with specific details about non-guests using the facilities (as opposed to employee's guests/parties) and he did not respond to the second email at all.


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## alotofgolf (May 19, 2010)

Denise, that is the approach I took. Exact quote I used:

" The owners property rights must be respected even when we are not there in person."

I should add:

 "If these reports are true, this must be fixed now. We pay very large maitenance fees to own a first class facility and do not expect that when we are not there it is being abused by "non paying" people."


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## Westin5Star (May 19, 2010)

jarta said:


> Westin5Star,   ...   However, the title of this thread when started by you is:  "Employees/non-guests hosting parties at WKORV/WKORVN?"...   eom



Jarta,

I just wanted to clear this up so that everyone knows how this thread was started.  The first post from this thread was made by me but I did not start this thread or name it.  My first post from this thread was actually cut and paste from a comment that I had made in another WKORV thread by Denise as she thought it would be good to have a dedicated thread on this issue.  I agree with that decision.  I did not name this thread.  I also wanted to mention that, with the exception of some on duty employee's kids terrorizing the pirate pool a couple of years ago, I have never seen or mentioned anything about non-working employees or their families being on premises.


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## jarta (May 19, 2010)

Westin5Star,   ...   Then, I supposed the title of this thread came from our Moderator.

By early June you should have no trouble with those pool temperatures at Lagunamar.  Toasty!   ...   eom


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## DeniseM (May 19, 2010)

> Employees/non-guests hosting parties at WKORV/WKORVN*?*



As Westin5Star said, this thread was part of the tree thread, but since it took off in another direction, it made sense to create a separate thread.

Why does it say "employees?" - A Starwood employee actually *told* Nodge that the extra people using the resort facilities were *guests of the staff*.  That is why the title includes both ideas.  





nodge said:


> Same thing happened when we were there in January.  At check-out I asked about it and was told that employees are permitted to host private parties for family and friends on the grounds.




This punctuation mark *"?"* at the end of the title is a question mark, and it means that the title is asking a *question* - Are these people unauthorized visitors or unauthorized guests of the staff?   

Since Westin5Star started the topic, I would be delighted to change the title to something of his choice.


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## DavidnRobin (May 19, 2010)

Distraction Ball -

This is a game we used to play in a pool bouncing a volleyball back and forth between everyone in the pool - then a small wet foam ball is used to throw at the person about to volley the ball - wham! - making them losing focus on the volleyball - thus the name 'Distraction Ball'.

It appears as if some have perfected this technique in diverting threads like this one - which is actually very simple.
1) Reports of non-guests (in whatever form) using WKORV/N facilities
2) Owners who pay MFs (whatever the cost) to operate WKORV/N
3) The rights of these Owners to contact their HOA BOD and SVO Managment and state their complaints and requesting action

The rest is just 'Distraction Ball' - especially by those who are only spectators and do not have a horse in the race (yet again...)


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## DeniseM (May 19, 2010)

alotofgolf said:


> Denise, that is the approach I took. Exact quote I used:
> 
> " The owners property rights must be respected even when we are not there in person."
> 
> ...



Thank you for emailing him - if you get a response, please let us know!  

Thanks for posting!


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## Westin5Star (May 19, 2010)

For the record, I am very happy with the name of this thread as it is.


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## DavidnRobin (May 19, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Thank you for emailing him - if you get a response, please let us know!
> 
> Thanks for posting!



I also emailed to 3 email addresses listed here (reasonable and constructive - of course) - sadly - no response - not even one of those templated ones.
I will follow-up after allowing time to investigate.


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## LAX Mom (May 19, 2010)

I'm not a Starwood owner, but have exchanged into WKORV/WKORVN several times. It's a beautiful resort with very nice amenities. I've been reading this thread with disbelief. Some people who live on Maui think it's okay to come on the property and use the pools, BBQ's etc? 

There are many very nice hotels within an hours drive of my home. I would never presume to go use their pools or other facilities unless I was a paying guest. 

If WKORV employees have told friends (who aren't staying at the property) they are welcome to use the resorts amenities then management needs to change this policy and make sure all employees enforce it. The hotel grounds are for the owners and others who have exchanged in or rented a room.

I did stay at WKORVN last Jan. and didn't notice a problem. However, I checked in Friday night and spent much of Sat & Sun with friends staying at the Marriott. So if there were crowds around the pool on the weekend I likely would have missed them. I missed Clint Eastwood filming, didn't hear about that until I returned from Maui and read about it on TUG!


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## vacationtime1 (May 20, 2010)

DavidnRobin said:


> I also emailed to 3 email addresses listed here (reasonable and constructive - of course) - sadly - no response - not even one of those templated ones.
> I will follow-up after allowing time to investigate.



I, too, sent emails to the three persons mentioned.

I, too, did not receive a response.


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## YYJMSP (May 20, 2010)

vacationtime1 said:


> I, too, sent emails to the three persons mentioned.
> 
> I, too, did not receive a response.



Add me to the list of ignored.

I do know that the message was delivered, as I got back a read receipt.


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## Captron (May 20, 2010)

A good friend is a police officer and has had experience with issues such as those described in a few resort type communities. He states that there is often a group of local people who take advantage of one property until they get kicked out and just move to the next property. They are in a constant rotation for their leisure/entertainment. Some of them that did this were well known to the officers in the area for doing this (and other activities getting law enforcement attention). It usually only gets worse as word spreads through the group of people who do this. (The new online term is something going "viral" is it not?) He likens it to groups of teenagers who hang out and often pilfer from stores in one area or mall until there is enough of an uprising to drive them out and move to the next place down the street or across town.

He has never worked in Hawaii, but it would seem that this is a fairly common phenomenon in resort areas and the only solution is to "step on it hard" to move them away from your property. Intermittent or inconsistent enforcement will not rectify the situation.


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## Westin5Star (May 20, 2010)

When I was at WPORV (Princeville)  last September I observed a local young man running past the pool areas into the double doors at the bottom of the lobby in between the restaurant and store.  He was being chased by a very large security guard.  He procededed halfway upstairs when he was met and tackled by another security guard.  The person they tackled was billigerent and trying to fight off the two security guards.  They messed him up pretty bad (which he deserved in my opinion after watching the entire event).  As they escorted him out to the front to meet up with the police, the guy kept yelling for his "slippers".  

I am not sure what this guy originally did wrong to cause attention or be chased but the security at the resort did a very good job of handling the situation (in my opinion).  

While I am not saying non-guests using the BBQs and pools should be roughed up, I do think that security has an obligation to make them very uncomfortable so that they do not want to return.  Before they can make them uncomfortable, they need to notice them.  My impression of security at WKORV was that they rode / walked around without much purpose.  They really didn't seem to be trying to observe the happenings of the resort.  I understand that it could get boring walking / riding around the same area with little activity most days.  Someone in an earlier post suggested a new security company.  That could be a great solution to this problem.


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## James1975NY (May 20, 2010)

Westin5Star said:


> When I was at WPORV (Princeville)  last September I observed a local young man running past the pool areas into the double doors at the bottom of the lobby in between the restaurant and store.  He was being chased by a very large security guard.  He procededed halfway upstairs when he was met and tackled by another security guard.  The person they tackled was billigerent and trying to fight off the two security guards.  They messed him up pretty bad (which he deserved in my opinion after watching the entire event).  As they escorted him out to the front to meet up with the police, the guy kept yelling for his "slippers".
> 
> I am not sure what this guy originally did wrong to cause attention or be chased but the security at the resort did a very good job of handling the situation (in my opinion).
> 
> While I am not saying non-guests using the BBQs and pools should be roughed up, I do think that security has an obligation to make them very uncomfortable so that they do not want to return.  Before they can make them uncomfortable, they need to notice them.  My impression of security at WKORV was that they rode / walked around without much purpose.  They really didn't seem to be trying to observe the happenings of the resort.  I understand that it could get boring walking / riding around the same area with little activity most days.  Someone in an earlier post suggested a new security company.  That could be a great solution to this problem.



Sheraton Vistana Villages has security that rides on the Segues. Not a cheap toy, but would certainly make the job more interesting.


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## jarta (May 20, 2010)

Westin5Star,   ...   "Someone in an earlier post suggested a new security company."

That was me and I stand behind it.  If the problem is not solved rather quickly, the security firm should be fired or the "on-site" security staff supervisor should be replaced.  

Every security contract I've ever been involved with operates on the basis of written "post orders" which are worked out between HOA/management and the security company and set forth how virtually every type of situation will be handled by the staff.  Weekly meetings between management and the on- and off-site supervisors to discuss recent incidents are SOP.

You always want the security staff to be employees of the security company, not employees of management or the HOA, for liability insurance reasons.    ...   eom


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## DavidnRobin (May 20, 2010)

Westin5Star said:


> When I was at WPORV (Princeville)  last September I observed a local young man running past the pool areas into the double doors at the bottom of the lobby in between the restaurant and store.  He was being chased by a very large security guard.  He procededed halfway upstairs when he was met and tackled by another security guard.  The person they tackled was billigerent and trying to fight off the two security guards.  They messed him up pretty bad (which he deserved in my opinion after watching the entire event).  As they escorted him out to the front to meet up with the police, the guy kept yelling for his "slippers".
> 
> I am not sure what this guy originally did wrong to cause attention or be chased but the security at the resort did a very good job of handling the situation (in my opinion).
> 
> While I am not saying non-guests using the BBQs and pools should be roughed up, I do think that security has an obligation to make them very uncomfortable so that they do not want to return.  Before they can make them uncomfortable, they need to notice them.  My impression of security at WKORV was that they rode / walked around without much purpose.  They really didn't seem to be trying to observe the happenings of the resort.  I understand that it could get boring walking / riding around the same area with little activity most days.  Someone in an earlier post suggested a new security company.  That could be a great solution to this problem.



My letter focused on Security improvement - in that there are only 3 main walkways coming in via the beach (and relatively easy to enforce), and managment-employee discussion on resort usage by non-guests.

I will wait patiently until I follow-up with them - giving them the benefit of time to tackle this issue (which has its obvious delicate side).  If not, my next contact will be less pleasant...


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## thheath (May 20, 2010)

Of course the general manager and every employee at the resort knows what's going on.  Unless the GM and Board are pressed they won't do anything.

Understand that it's a small island and everyone is either related, went to school together, are friends or have friends or relatives in common.  All locals, whether employees or pool crashers down inside have a chip on their shoulders regarding rich (perceived) haoles.  I'm sure they think that it's their right to use the facilities.

I live in Hawaii and see it everyday.


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## baz48 (May 22, 2010)

I sent an email to Gregg Lundberg on May2 regarding this situation.  He responded on May 4.  On May 7 I asked him if I could quote his response on TUG and on May 15 he replied that he had had quite a few emails expressing concerns and that he was preparing an overall response to all of the concerns and would be sending it to those owners who had expressed concern.  He requested that I wait for that reply to quote on TUG.  I haven't received that general reply yet.


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## DavidnRobin (May 22, 2010)

baz48 said:


> I sent an email to Gregg Lundberg on May2 regarding this situation.  He responded on May 4.  On May 7 I asked him if I could quote his response on TUG and on May 15 he replied that he had had quite a few emails expressing concerns and that he was preparing an overall response to all of the concerns and would be sending it to those owners who had expressed concern.  He requested that I wait for that reply to quote on TUG.  I haven't received that general reply yet.



Thanks Caroline for the follow-up - I had no doubt that they received many emails from concerned Owners.  From my experience with WSJ, I have learned that there are many more TUG lurkers than TUG participants.  I figured SVO was working on a response.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 22, 2010)

We felt very privileged to stay there through exchange, in an oceanfront unit for our second week, which was our luckiest exchange ever, and that was how I saw the people coming in, as I was sitting on the lanai.  When I noticed the various locals coming from the path by the ocean, I noticed they were coming from the south, so I assumed they purposely leave their cars by that park on the other side of the Westin. 

My MIL, who is not the most observant woman in the world at 82, also noticed these locals coming to the pool.  She was sitting in the sun by the pool and had an entire family, of about 8 people, come in with their coolers (and they had glass bottles, too, which she assumed was alcohol and against the rules).  They were mixing drinks in plastic bottles from the coolers, and they had food, too.  She moved because they were very noisy and rowdy.  But they seemed to be friends with the bartender, so she didn't think much of it, but she did mention it to me as odd.  

I didn't say anything, nor did I write, because I am not an owner, and again, we were so very privileged to stay in this very nice place through II exchanges.  I don't look a gift horse in the mouth.


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## Bill4728 (May 22, 2010)

We are very happy to report that my DD just got a week at the first of Aug for WKORV N for her honeymoon.

Hope this all is resolved by then.


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## YYJMSP (May 25, 2010)

*New hotel manager at property?*

According to the newsletters that just arrived for both properties, Angela Nolan is the new Hotel Manager.

_In her new role, Angela will oversee resort operations and Owner relations. Angela will also be the property connection to your Association as well as lead the team on guest satisfaction, brand compliance, revenue streams, and enhance integration with our sister properties._


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## DavidnRobin (May 26, 2010)

*Response from WKORV/N*

Aloha David,

Thank you for your correspondence. I appreciate you taking the time to share your comments regarding non-registered owner and guest resort use at The Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas and The Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas North.

As the Manager and Developer of the property, Starwood Vacation Ownership is committed to the delivery of an enjoyable vacation experience.  In an effort to appropriately address the immediate concerns and to prevent any future opportunities surrounding non-registered guest use of the resort, several measures have been put into place:

Addition of Security Staff on weekends
Enhanced registration communication, collateral and signage indicating that the pool and barbecue areas are for registered guests only
· Reinforcement of our existing towel issuance policy 
· Enhanced monitoring and enforcement of the “no outside alcohol” policy (including prohibiting coolers) on the pool deck and at the barbeque grills 

In regards to concerns that local residents are utilizing the resort’s amenities, any Island Resident who elects to pay a nightly rate at a Starwood property may access resort amenities as a registered guest.  With that said, we are facilitating additional discussion surrounding the number of non-registered “guests” a renter (or owner) may invite to the property.  

As Starwood Associates employed at The Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort and The Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort North are not permitted to utilize the pool or barbecue amenities of the resort, any violations of this policy will be addressed.

We are confident that the aforementioned measures will deter non-registered guests from attempting to gain access to our property.  As we have a zero tolerance policy for offenders who attempt to swim in our pools or use our barbecue facilities, our Security personnel will be diligent in their efforts to impose use regulations for the betterment of the resort.

Once again, thank you for your valuable feedback and rest assured that we take your concerns seriously.  If I may be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me directly at 808.667.3218 or via email at gregg.lundberg@westin.com should you have any other questions. 

Mahalo,
Gregg Lundberg
General Manager
Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas


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## DavidnRobin (May 26, 2010)

^^^^^
As we have come to learn - SVO Resort Management can be very responsive when we unite to voice our concerns (in a productive manner - of course).  I will respond thanking Gregg for his effort in addressing this issue. I hope others do as well - because I can imagine SVO Management appreciates being praised considering that human nature is to only contact them when there are issues/complaints.


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## LisaRex (May 26, 2010)

Thanks for copying on us on the reply, David.


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## vacationtime1 (May 26, 2010)

I received the same letter as David.  My version shows it was copied to Teri Castleberry and Carla Smith.

This is a good first step.  I am pleased that the focus is on towels and coolers; those are among the better ways of profiling outsiders.  Also, inasmuch as we have blogged about non-paying guests on weekends, increasing security on weekends is appropriate.

The good news is that I will be at WKORV in early July and can check and see how much difference this has made.


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## thheath (May 26, 2010)

DavidnRobin said:


> Aloha David,
> 
> Thank you for your correspondence. I appreciate you taking the time to share your comments regarding non-registered owner and guest resort use at The Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas and The Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas North.
> 
> ...



My would ANY non-registered guest be allowed use of facilities?


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## YYJMSP (May 26, 2010)

vacationtime1 said:


> I received the same letter as David.  My version shows it was copied to Teri Castleberry and Carla Smith.



I got the same response, cc'ed to Carla Smith.


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## DeniseM (May 26, 2010)

I got the same response, too.  Great to be heard!


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## Fredm (May 27, 2010)

thheath said:


> My would ANY non-registered guest be allowed use of facilities?



Because an owner should be able to entertain (responsibly) at their property. It is the abuse that should be curtailed. Resort management must have the discretion to know the difference.

For example, I would be put off (mad as hell) if I could not invite a friend from Westin Maui for a pool side drink (and a swim) at Marriott Maui while I was there.


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## thezinfan (May 27, 2010)

thheath said:


> My would ANY non-registered guest be allowed use of facilities?



The last 2-3 years, we've met people golfing and have invited them back to the condo. We also usually know 2-3 couples who are vacationing at the same time, and usually invite each other over.


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## James1975NY (May 27, 2010)

thezinfan said:


> The last 2-3 years, we've met people golfing and have invited them back to the condo. We also usually know 2-3 couples who are vacationing at the same time, and usually invite each other over.



It IS your home away from home is it not?


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## vacationtime1 (May 27, 2010)

DavidnRobin said:


> ^^^^^
> As we have come to learn - SVO Resort Management can be very responsive when we unite to voice our concerns (in a productive manner - of course).  I will respond thanking Gregg for his effort in addressing this issue. I hope others do as well - because I can imagine SVO Management appreciates being praised considering that human nature is to only contact them when there are issues/complaints.



I agree and I responded to Gregg's form letter.  

We want them to continue to do what they have done here -- listen to our feedback and act on it.


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## grgs (May 27, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Because an owner should be able to entertain (responsibly) at their property. It is the abuse that should be curtailed. Resort management must have the discretion to know the difference.
> 
> For example, I would be put off (mad as hell) if I could not invite a friend from Westin Maui for a pool side drink (and a swim) at Marriott Maui while I was there.



I agree.  We travel from time to time with friends that own a Hilton timeshare.  They're either in a Hilton timeshare or hotel, and we're in a Starwood timeshare or hotel.  We'll trade off spending the day at each other's resort on days we're not sightseeing.

Glorian


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## DeniseM (May 28, 2010)

IMNSHO, I don't think the Owners/renters + guests should exceed the occupancy of the unit.  So if a couple has a studio with an occupancy of 4, they should be allowed no more than 2 guests.


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## DavidnRobin (May 28, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> IMNSHO, I don't think the Owners/renters + guests should exceed the occupancy of the unit.  So if a couple has a studio with an occupancy of 4, they should be allowed no more than 2 guests.



oh really...
so the 1 Bd Dlx side has an occupancy of 4 - so no more than 4?
how about if it is limited occupancy to place settings?  :hysterical:


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## J&JFamily (May 28, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> IMNSHO, I don't think the Owners/renters + guests should exceed the occupancy of the unit.  So if a couple has a studio with an occupancy of 4, they should be allowed no more than 2 guests.



Couldn't disagree (respectfully) more with this.  This policy would prevent families from sharing their vacations with other families.  We have taken MANY vacations during which multiple families stayed at the same resort so that all of the families could be together.  However, we have also taken a few vacations during which families were at different resorts (i.e. we own at Westin and the other family owns at Marriott).  If we were not allowed to invite them to use our pool, and vice-versa, the vacation would not have been very fun for the kids.  This is, in my opinion, completely different than the scenario outlined in this thread where there was significant abuse.  Inviting a family of four to use our pool for an hour or two is different than 20, 30 or 40+ individuals taking over an entire section of the pool/BBQ area.  If I'm going to pay the ridiculous MFs  that we all pay, I would be pretty bitter if I was not allowed to have a few guests (again, emphasize on a reasonable number) to share the pool with us.


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## thheath (May 28, 2010)

Seems like a few want their cake and eat it too.

I want to invite my friends and family but don't want the locals to do the same...


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## J&JFamily (May 28, 2010)

thheath said:


> Seems like a few want their cake and eat it too.
> 
> I want to invite my friends and family but don't want the locals to do the same...



Which post are you referring to?


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## DeniseM (May 28, 2010)

DavidnRobin said:


> oh really...
> so the 1 Bd Dlx side has an occupancy of 4 - so no more than 4?
> how about if it is limited occupancy to place settings?  :hysterical:



You lost me Dave.  Common sense says that the resort amenities are not designed to accommodate more than the Max. room occupancy.  So if room occupancy is 4 - the Max. number of owners and their guests using the resort amenities should be no more than 4.  If you have a 2 bdm., you could have a total of 8.  It's fair and simple and easy to enforce.


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## Ken555 (May 28, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> You lost me Dave.  Common sense says that the resort amenities are not designed to accommodate more than the Max. room occupancy.  So if room occupancy is 4 - the Max. number of owners and their guests using the resort amenities should be no more than 4.  If you have a 2 bdm., you could have a total of 8.  It's fair and simple and easy to enforce.



+1. This makes the most sense to me.


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## jarta (May 28, 2010)

DeniseM,   ...   "So if room occupancy is 4 - the Max. number of owners and their guests using the resort amenities should be no more than 4."

So, if you and your husband have 2 grandchildren with you, 0 guests.

Starwood premium 1-brs sleep 4.  I think that every Starwood premium 1-br I have ever stayed at has dining room seating and kitchen service for 6.  If you are staying in a premium 1-br do you automatically get 2 guests?  Or, if 4 are staying in a 2-br loft at St. John in Bay Vista that sleeps up to 10, do they get 6 guests?

You have your opinion.  J&JFamily stated the number should be a reasonable one.  I agree with J&J.  IMO, not everything in life need have an exact, inflexible rule.  0 guests is not reasonable.  In many circumstances, 6 would be unreasonable.

Consider this: if Starwood took away all guests, wouldn't that be even more an interference with ownership rights than making those who don't want to stay at the resort that year deposit an average week for their season in II?   ...   eom


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## LisaRex (May 28, 2010)

I agree with the "reasonable" standard.  What the OP described is in no way reasonable.  And, I also have to say that it's not just locals.  If I were part of a huge family reunion and we all descended upon the grill and pool at once, I'd be sensitive to ensure that we didn't hog all the resources, even if we were all paying guests.  That's just common courtesy. 

What the OP described is akin to what I experienced in St. John this year --where two couples moved the common grills to their own private patio.  We found out when we tried to go out and grill our meat and the grills had vanished.  How rude! That sense of selfishness, that level of entitlement, is hard to take from _paying_ guests.  For those who get in free or at a huge discount, it's even worse because they are using amenities that are paid for BY the people that they are shutting out.  

Unfortunately, it's like everything else: a few pigs can ruin it for everyone.


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## jarta (May 28, 2010)

LisaRex,   ..   "a few pigs can ruin it for everyone."

So can a few prigs.  Mainly by imposing unreasonable rules in response to unreasonable conduct.   ...   eom


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## YYJMSP (May 28, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> I agree with the "reasonable" standard.  What the OP described is in no way reasonable.  And, I also have to say that it's not just locals.  If I were part of a huge family reunion and we all descended upon the grill and pool at once, I'd be sensitive to ensure that we didn't hog all the resources, even if we were all paying guests.  That's just common courtesy.



Agreed -- we're a group of 17 during our stay (across 7 units), and I'm personally very sensitive to perceptions about not sharing and not playing nice with the other guests.

Fun is fun, but obviously within reason with large groups using shared facilities; however, if 17 people want to have a crazy breakfast in one unit, oh well, that's our problem to make sure we take care of the place...


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## DeniseM (May 28, 2010)

jarta said:


> LisaRex,   ..   "a few pigs can ruin it for everyone."
> 
> So can a few prigs.  Mainly by imposing unreasonable rules in response to unreasonable conduct.   ...   eom



jarta - Lighten up.  We are just brain storming possible solutions here.  There is no need for name calling.


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## DavidnRobin (May 28, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> You lost me Dave.  Common sense says that the resort amenities are not designed to accommodate more than the Max. room occupancy.  So if room occupancy is 4 - the Max. number of owners and their guests using the resort amenities should be no more than 4.  If you have a 2 bdm., you could have a total of 8.  It's fair and simple and easy to enforce.



Sorry - my poor sense of humor must have been missed (re: place settings).  There is a hugh difference between staying the night vs. visiting...

I meant that it sounded like at no time should there be more the stated occupancy in a villa.  REAL LIFE EXAMPLE:  There are 4 of us in our Dlx OF (1Bd side) and 4 in the studio - and we are celebrating our wedding and Thanksgiving week - AND our families come from all over to join us (4 not staying at WKORV) - so there are about 12 people total.  We were able to have T-Day dinner together in our 1Bd (n=12).  With this proposal of limiting visitors to occupancy levels - we would have had to ask 4 family members not to come to dinner. (???!!!) 

FAIL

Or last year when we invited the 2 people that performed our wedding (maui residents) - and we had 4 people on the 1bd side (the studio side had been split off was being used by someone else.  So we cannot entertain our friend - according to the proposal?

WRONG

As stated here - there needs to be some discretion by WKORV management, and responsibility by the Owners (of course).  There is not a one-size fits all approach - and no way to get 100% compliancy.

REAL


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## DeniseM (May 28, 2010)

David - entertaining guests in your unit, is quite different that inviting guests to use the resorts pools, spas, barbeques, tennis courts, and picnic tables - which may infringe on the rights of other owners.  At times of high occupancy, inviting extra guests to use shared amenities may infringe on owner's rights to use the facility.  I think guests should be issued arm bands to use the shared amenities, so that during high capacity, the resort is not overwhelmed, as it has been lately.


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## DavidnRobin (May 28, 2010)

I'd be happy if I didn't have to be in a Hot Tub with children... but others think the opposite of this.
Distraction BALL! (WHAP!)

I am going to move on... because I was looking to SVO-WKORV/N awareness for an issue that Owners had reported.  I don't care if Owners are inviting guests as long as they are behaving themselves (which is obviously relative) and not abusing usage by others.

The main points of this thread (from OP) was 1) usage by non-guests and employees [Wrong at anytime] - and 2) Guests abusing reasonable usage [Challenging to control]


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## jarta (May 28, 2010)

DeniseM,   ...   Reasonable use by an owner and guests together of "pools, spas, barbeques, tennis courts and picnic tables" is something that comes with ownership.  The lines you want drawn (no use) are unreasonable, IMO.   ...   eom


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## Ken555 (May 28, 2010)

Wow, this thread has taken on a new direction in recent days. Instead of suggesting limiting controls and oversight measures, perhaps an interested party might call the resort and ask what the existing policy actually is and report back here? Let's get some current facts before we continue into fantasyland.


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## J&JFamily (May 28, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> Wow, this thread has taken on a new direction in recent days. Instead of suggesting limiting controls and oversight measures, perhaps an interested party might call the resort and ask what the existing policy actually is and report back here? Let's get some current facts before we continue into fantasyland.



Great point.  I was talking to my wife about this situation and she vaguely remembers talking about this with the sales person when we bought our WKORVN from Starwood years ago.  She recalls them saying that you can of course have guests come use the facilities while you are staying.  Of course, this means absolutely nothing given that some (not all) timeshare salespeople will say anything that you want to hear in order to make a sale.  

So, I just called the resort and asked what the policy is if we (a family of four was staying at the resort and wanted to have another family of four who is not staying at the resort visit and use the facilities with us.  The response from the operator was "you would have to check with the manager on duty and there would be a charge".  I asked what the charge would be for that party of four and she said she would have to check with the manager.  She put me on hold, came back a minute or two later and said that the charge would be $75 for the day.  

Not sure what I think about this.  Even though this contradicts what my wife remembers being told at the sales meeting (she is much smarter than I am so if she says she remembers it, and I don't, I would believe her over me), we all recognize that, unfortunately, many salespeople say things that the buyer wants to hear to expedite a sale.


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## DeniseM (May 28, 2010)

Thaks for the info.  Did they say what the guest limit is per unit?


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## YYJMSP (May 28, 2010)

J&JFamily said:


> So, I just called the resort and asked what the policy is if we (a family of four was staying at the resort and wanted to have another family of four who is not staying at the resort visit and use the facilities with us.  The response from the operator was "you would have to check with the manager on duty and there would be a charge".  I asked what the charge would be for that party of four and she said she would have to check with the manager.  She put me on hold, came back a minute or two later and said that the charge would be $75 for the day.



This sounds similar to some other resorts, who will offer a "day pass" for non-guests to use the common facilities...


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## J&JFamily (May 28, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Thaks for the info.  Did they say what the guest limit is per unit?



No, but I didn't ask.  I want to clarify that I did not ask for or receive anything official in writing.  I just called and asked on the phone.  I'm not sure how consistent this practice/policy is because the operator's response did not seem very certain (although she was very polite).  If I had to guess, this is probably what they tell people on the phone but may not consistently follow the practice.  

In our case, if we're staying in a 2 bed lockoff (which has a 8 person/unit maximum), and there are only 4 of us, I'm not sure that they should charge us.  In this scenario, if we had another family of 4 "stay" with us for the day, we would still be at or under our occupancy limit.  Anyway, not really sure how I feel about all of this; I guess I have to think about it some more.


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## Ken555 (May 28, 2010)

J&JFamily said:


> In our case, if we're staying in a 2 bed lockoff (which has a 8 person/unit maximum), and there are only 4 of us, I'm not sure that they should charge us.  In this scenario, if we had another family of 4 "stay" with us for the day, we would still be at or under our occupancy limit.  Anyway, not really sure how I feel about all of this; I guess I have to think about it some more.



Thanks for calling. And, I agree that in practice I highly doubt they charge anyone (just my opinion) since there is almost no method for them to provide oversight on this issue. 

For instance, upon checkin you are asked how many towel cards you want. I don't know if they limit this, but I routinely ask for two cards per person in the unit. What if I asked for three or four? Would they question me or just hand me the cards? 

Personally, I feel that you are entitled to, at minimum, the capacity number for the unit you occupy during your stay. You've paid for that privilege, so if you want to invite friends to spend time with you, you're entitled. The question of having additional people beyond that capacity is the only concern. And, while I think hotels restrict this for obvious reasons, it's always a bit harder to do so at timeshare properties...except these resorts operate as both a timeshare and a hotel. So, if you call back you might get a difference response if you say you're a SVN owner and want to have guests, and ask if there will be a fee. People paying per night might be charged while owners might not. I really don't know. Then again, this is probably a very arbitrary charge.

The bottom line to me is that as long as people respect others space and don't abuse the resources at the resort, you should enjoy the facilities as much as possible. 

Unfortunately, while I completely understand the twisted rationale of locals who might believe they have the "right" to use the resort facilities without paying, they simply need to be informed that's not the case... in as politely and courteous a fashion as possible. They're the resort neighbors, but they aren't owners or guests, and don't have the right to use the facilities unless they pay for it. Any employee who assists a local in obtaining use of the resort should be immediately terminated... there should be a zero tolerance policy on this issue, IMO.


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