# New Travel Development going to Maui



## StevenTing (Apr 28, 2020)

I’m a little over 30 days out before our trip to Lahaina in 6206. It’s the one thing I look forward to all year.  I’m checking my flights just double checking everything and I notice something is different. My original flight was SLC-SEA-OGG.  There was a change a couple weeks ago that modified our SLC-SEA leg, which was fine.

Looking today, it now shows SLC-SEA-LAX-OGG. Odd, but okay, I’ll roll with it. I understand airline are trying to consolidate and save some operating costs. Instead of arriving at 3:30pm, I now arrive at 6:30pm. But wait, there’s more. I arrive at 6:30pm the FOLLOWING day!!! So not only do I lose a night in Maui, I now have to pay for a hotel room in Seattle for a 1 day layover, before continuing on to LAX/OGG.

This almost makes me want to cancel the trip, but we’re still holding out. Need to make adjustments to car rental and see if I can find a room for the layover. Good thing I still have a Marriott Certificate.

I called Delta and asked them about it.  She tells me about my wonderful itinerary and I asked her if she noticed anything strange.  She apologized once she saw the layover.  I told her I That I wasn’t upset at her as it wasn’t her fault.  I just never received a notification about the change.  That’s the part that bothered me.

One benefit is that my cash tickets are now eligible for a full refund if I should cancel, rather than a voucher.

But back to Maui, I really hope things do a 180 over there. On another note, DW went to go get tested today just in case.  She’s been having a dry cough for about a week and yesterday she tells me that she her chest is feeling tight.  And she tells me she had a little diarrhea last week as well as some yesterday.  Hopefully it’s nothing.  If she does have it, I’m putting my Travelex policy to the test and filing a claim. Also, whatever she does have isn’t that bad. She thought it was possibly allergies.


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## mjm1 (Apr 28, 2020)

Steven, sorry to hear about the changes the airline made, but as you say it makes you eligible for a cash refund. I am hoping that happens with our Alaska Air flight to HNL or back from Maui as we don’t plan to go. Alaska isn’t good about letting us know of changes either. Very annoying.

I hope your DW is OK and doesn’t have the virus. If she does, here is wishing her a smooth recovery and no one else in your family gets it. That travel insurance Would definitely come in handy if she does have it.

Best regards.

Mike


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## dioxide45 (Apr 28, 2020)

These are the games airlines are playing. Consolidating flights to prevent from having to cancel flight confirmations. This was deliberate. They are hoping you cancel first so they don't have to refund you.


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## csodjd (Apr 28, 2020)

I'm sitting on a handful of Hawaiian Air tickets to/from Maui for late May. According to HA, they have "suspended" flights to May 8, but not after. So, my flights are not yet canceled or suspended, so no refund, just voucher. So I'm sitting tight. More airline games. 

I was able to get refunds on about 10 different AA flights I had scheduled because they were either canceled or had schedule changes of one hour or more, or went from non-stop to 1-stop. But before I called I mapped out every flight so I knew exactly what had changed. 

Still sitting on RT business class flights to/from Europe. Tahiti Air to Paris. AA flights home from London and Dublin. Hoping to be able to use them, but not optimistic.


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## Luanne (Apr 28, 2020)

It sounds like right now all of the airlines are playing that game.   By that game I mean making changes to your itinerary, but NOT notifying you.  I found it with our Alaska Airlines flights to Seattle.  I wanted to cancel them, so that gave me the opportunity.  But I only found out by checking their website.  Dd had a conference in Los Angeles cancelled.  She checked her SW flights and found it had gone from a nonstop at night, to a one stop starting in the afternoon.  Again, no notification from SW but she was able to cancel and get a refund.


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## StevenTing (Apr 28, 2020)

Well, either way it gives us options that we didn’t have before.  Cash refund could come in handy if we need to.  Since flight originates 5/30 we can pretty much cancel anytime. And now we have the option for cash so that’s a win.  

But I’d rather be in Maui.


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## csodjd (Apr 28, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> Well, either way it gives us options that we didn’t have before.  Cash refund could come in handy if we need to.  Since flight originates 5/30 we can pretty much cancel anytime. And now we have the option for cash so that’s a win.
> 
> But I’d rather be in Maui.


I could take HA vouchers for November... but I paid more for Memorial Weekend to Maui than early Nov (post-COVID) fare, so I'd rather get the refund and rebuy.


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## bizaro86 (Apr 29, 2020)

I would check and see if you can find something better to book. Giving up a day of the trip isnt great, and neither is the overnight layover. It seems pretty likely to me that you could cancel, refund, and then book a replacement that was a better option.


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## StevenTing (Apr 29, 2020)

bizaro86 said:


> I would check and see if you can find something better to book. Giving up a day of the trip isnt great, and neither is the overnight layover. It seems pretty likely to me that you could cancel, refund, and then book a replacement that was a better option.



I checked.   No other options.  All other flights have been cancelled.  Next available flight is 10 days later.  They’ve cut down on everything.  They’re trying to force travelers to cancel.


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## Big Matt (Apr 29, 2020)

You may want to see if you can get to Oahu on a better flight and then buy a ticket from Oahu to OGG.  Laying over in Hawaii may be more fun that Seattle.   Or fly two round trip tickets.  One from SLC to LAX and the other from LAX to OGG.  Looks like you can cobble those together for a decent price.  Not sure what you paid initially.


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## jmhpsu93 (Apr 29, 2020)

Luanne said:


> It sounds like right now all of the airlines are playing that game.   By that game I mean making changes to your itinerary, but NOT notifying you.  I found it with our Alaska Airlines flights to Seattle.  I wanted to cancel them, so that gave me the opportunity.  But I only found out by checking their website.  Dd had a conference in Los Angeles cancelled.  She checked her SW flights and found it had gone from a nonstop at night, to a one stop starting in the afternoon.  Again, no notification from SW but she was able to cancel and get a refund.


I've had several SW flights modified in June/July and have received email notifications each time, even though in one case it was only like a 45 minute difference in departure/arrival time.  I've also had one cancelled completely, also notified and funds put in holding account with option for full refund.

I'd recommend folks really watch their reservations - it takes like two minutes on a web site or the app.


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## StevenTing (Apr 29, 2020)

Big Matt said:


> You may want to see if you can get to Oahu on a better flight and then buy a ticket from Oahu to OGG.  Laying over in Hawaii may be more fun that Seattle.   Or fly two round trip tickets.  One from SLC to LAX and the other from LAX to OGG.  Looks like you can cobble those together for a decent price.  Not sure what you paid initially.



None of these options are available.  When I do a search with flexible dates, no results return.  When I break the legs down, there is always a timing difference.   By the time I get to LAX, the flight to Maui or HNL has already left.


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## Big Matt (Apr 29, 2020)

Steven, you would need to layover in LA for it to work, but it's something to consider.  It looks like you can pull it off on the way back without a layover.  Same thing via SFO.  Of course I was looking at about 30 days out, not specific to your actual dates.

The cruddy part is that you would be paying a lot for bags with this model.


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## Ken555 (Apr 29, 2020)

I hope you’re visiting for longer than a couple weeks! Don’t they still insist on a 14-day quarantine at a home upon arrival in Hawaii? 

Update: yes. See https://www.hawaiitourismauthority.org/news/alerts/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/

Or, are you arriving on or after June 1st?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 29, 2020)

That sounds like a terrible travel schedule. If you haven't already done so, have you looked at other carriers? I will bet you could do better with canceling for refund and then using the money for Southwest from UT to OAk and then Oak to OGG.


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## StevenTing (Apr 29, 2020)

I checked SouthWest.  They offer no outgoing flights.  If you want to have fun and check, scheduled departure is 5/30 from SLC and returning 6/13.  For the airlines that I've checked, there are no other options available.  Rescheduling doesn't appear to be an option.


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## TXTortoise (Apr 29, 2020)

Steven, are you using Google flights?





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I didn't drill down too much, but see two that aren't overnight.





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## BJRSanDiego (Apr 29, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> I’m a little over 30 days out before our trip to Lahaina in 6206.


I presume that you are aware that a few days ago the Governor of Hawaii extended the quarantine expiration date to the end of May.  So you may be cutting it a little close.

Here's a weird thought:  If a person arrives on May 29th or 30th they have to go into a 14 day quarantine.  But assume that on June 1 it is lifted.  Does a person who went into quarantine prior to June 1 still need to continue their quarantine.  That is, is it retroactive?


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## Ken555 (Apr 29, 2020)

BJRSanDiego said:


> I presume that you are aware that a few days ago the Governor of Hawaii extended the quarantine expiration date to the end of May. So you may be cutting it a little close.
> 
> Here's a weird thought: If a person arrives on May 29th or 30th they have to go into a 14 day quarantine. But assume that on June 1 it is lifted. Does a person who went into quarantine prior to June 1 still need to continue their quarantine. That is, is it retroactive?



See post 14


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## CalGalTraveler (Apr 29, 2020)

@StevenTing You are right. For some reason there are zero flights when you plug in SLC to OGG, However there are flights same day if you break it into 2 searches 1) SLC to Oak; 2) Oak to OGG.  I have to run back to work, but you might be able to reduce the layover if you check the other California WN hubs for Hawaii (Sacto, SJC, SFO, etc.). Good luck!


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## dioxide45 (Apr 29, 2020)

Ken555 said:


> See post 14
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I don't see where post #14 answered the question. I read through the portion of the site that referenced the 14 day quarantine, but didn't look through all the other associated links. Nothing I see mentions if you arrive when the quarantine is in effect, are you released from it if the end they order during your 14 days>


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## Ken555 (Apr 29, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> I don't see where post #14 answered the question. I read through the portion of the site that referenced the 14 day quarantine, but didn't look through all the other associated links. Nothing I see mentions if you arrive when the quarantine is in effect, are you released from it if the end they order during your 14 days>



The question was



> If a person arrives on May 29th or 30th they have to go into a 14 day quarantine. But assume that on June 1 it is lifted. Does a person who went into quarantine prior to June 1 still need to continue their quarantine. That is, is it retroactive?



The link I included answered this question. If you arrive before June 1st, you have a 14 day quarantine. This does not mean that if you arrive on May 25th, for example, your 14 day quarantine is completed on June 1st.


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## lynne (Apr 29, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @StevenTing You are right. For some reason there are zero flights when you plug in SLC to OGG, However there are flights same day if you break it into 2 searches 1) SLC to Oak; 2) Oak to OGG.  I have to run back to work, but you might be able to reduce the layover if you check the other California WN hubs for Hawaii (Sacto, SJC, SFO, etc.). Good luck!
> 
> View attachment 19848
> 
> View attachment 19849


Southwest does not offer any multi-city bookings into and out of Hawaii.  You need to book the non-stop and book an additional flight for the connecting cities.


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## Luanne (Apr 29, 2020)

lynne said:


> Southwest does not offer any multi-city bookings into and out of Hawaii.  You need to book the non-stop and book an additional flight for the connecting cities.


Really?  I went to the SW website and while I couldn't see a flight for the 5/30 SLC to OGG, I was able to pull up the return flight from OGG to SLC with a stop in OAK.


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## lynne (Apr 29, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Really?  I went to the SW website and while I couldn't see a flight for the 5/30 SLC to OGG, I was able to pull up the return flight from OGG to SLC with a stop in OAK.


you are correct, southwest is now allowing connecting flights to the following cities from OAK/SJC.  Maybe these flights aren't offered daily and there are differences in the days offered between OAK/SJC and the connecting cities on the outbound?

Connecting West Coast cities:

Burbank
Long Beach
Ontario
Orange County
Portland
Sacramento (direct service pending)
San Diego (direct service pending)
Seattle

Connecting non West Coast cities:

Albuquerque
Boise
Denver
Las Vegas
Minneapolis
Phoenix
Salt Lake City
Spokane


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## hangloose (Apr 29, 2020)

StevenTing- While I know you do not want to cancel your trip...if it does come down to that...at least you can now cancel with a full airfare refund (vs credit), since the airline added an overnight connection.   It takes a little bit of the sting out.  If you still plan to go though, I think that's a pretty poor flight path with two connections.  I'd try to improve that over the coming weeks if the airline opens better flight options.  Good luck.


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## StevenTing (Apr 30, 2020)

At this point it's not worth the hassle to try and change carriers.  However, if more optimal flights open up, I will be modifying.  The challenge is that we have 3 separate bookings for our group that will be travelling.  Our Aunt/Uncle that will be coming will only be staying 7 days with us, which will now be 6 days.  They're still planning to come at this moment as long as we are.

But yes, the cash refund does make it a little better if we have to cancel.


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## StevenTing (Apr 30, 2020)

And my DW's test came back negative.  Now I can call her hypochondriac.


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## Luanne (Apr 30, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> At this point it's not worth the hassle to try and change carriers.  However, if more optimal flights open up, I will be modifying.  The challenge is that we have 3 separate bookings for our group that will be travelling.  Our Aunt/Uncle that will be coming will only be staying 7 days with us, which will now be 6 days.  They're still planning to come at this moment as long as we are.
> 
> But yes, the cash refund does make it a little better if we have to cancel.


Steven in looking at your dates and issues with flights, could you push your arrival date back a couple of days so that you arrive June 1 or later.  That way you would avoid the 14 day quarantine that it looks like you would be subject to if you arrive before the end of May.


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## StevenTing (Apr 30, 2020)

Not currently possible with Delta.  They’re not showing any flight availability.  That might change in a couple of weeks.


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## Ricci (Apr 30, 2020)

Steven,

I was like you and held on by my fingernails for my June 13 Maui arrival, staying for a month in great Marriott resorts.

My husband and I have read all the Hawaii press releases and watched videos of the official government meetings regarding Covid19.

I can't imagine restrictions being totally lifted by June.  I suspect the quarantine will be lifted, but there will be limited stores and restaurants open.  And if we have to wear masks where ever we go, well.....that's not fun on vacation.

Actually in one of their meetings, they were so upset that a few visitors were still arriving, that they were considering using ankle bracelets for visitors testing negative, keeping everyone in a convention center for 14 days, or keeping them in their hotel rooms without a room key.   Of course, this was just during the quarantine.

I cancelled all reservations yesterday.  We'll go another year.


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## Mr. Vker (Apr 30, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @StevenTing You are right. For some reason there are zero flights when you plug in SLC to OGG, However there are flights same day if you break it into 2 searches 1) SLC to Oak; 2) Oak to OGG.  I have to run back to work, but you might be able to reduce the layover if you check the other California WN hubs for Hawaii (Sacto, SJC, SFO, etc.). Good luck!
> 
> View attachment 19848
> 
> View attachment 19849


Looks like they canceled the nonstop and the one with the HNL layover is much more.  I'd look at getting to the west coast a day early and flying to OGG the day your trip begins. You may have explored that-I didn't read every post. AA is pricey. I just looked. Sorry about this. Good luck.


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## Mr. Vker (Apr 30, 2020)

delete


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## taterhed (May 1, 2020)

For the record;  The airlines are not playing 'games.'

It is quite possible that more than a few airlines will declare bankruptcy or cease operations entirely in the next few weeks or months.
Ditto for small and large businesses.  Hope you don't have a Hertz rental car....they are slipping beneath the waves as we speak.

I'll offer this suggestion:  Try to travel at least 1 day ahead.  Expect 1 out of 3 flights to cancel or change schedule.  If you can get on a flight that gets you where you're going.....go.
Cash refunds?   Not if there isn't any money.
It's a sad state of affairs.


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## Luanne (May 1, 2020)

taterhed said:


> For the record;  The airlines are not playing 'games.'
> 
> It is quite possible that more than a few airlines will declare bankruptcy or cease operations entirely in the next few weeks or months.
> Ditto for small and large businesses.  Hope you don't have a Hertz rental car....they are slipping beneath the waves as we speak.
> ...


I'd be concerned with trying to get to Maui one day earlier as that is still during the period when the two week quarantine is in effect.  Also, it looks like there may not be available flights going to Hawaii because of the quarantine. That's why I suggested maybe trying to go a day or two later.


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## TravelTime (May 1, 2020)

Hi Steven,

This sounds like a really tough flight. Also many things in Maui may not be open, assuming you can get past the 14 day quarantine. If I were you, I would take the cash refund and reschedule for a time when things will be more fun.


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## taterhed (May 1, 2020)

Luanne said:


> I'd be concerned with trying to get to Maui one day earlier as that is still during the period when the two week quarantine is in effect.  Also, it looks like there may not be available flights going to Hawaii because of the quarantine. That's why I suggested maybe trying to go a day or two later.



I agree.....my point was this (generic, not just OP):   

Expect delays and cancels.
Don't expect automatic cash refunds ymmv.
Plan to arrive a day after you expect it.  So plan accordingly.

Good luck


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## StevenTing (May 1, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> Hi Steven,
> 
> This sounds like a really tough flight. Also many things in Maui may not be open, assuming you can get past the 14 day quarantine. If I were you, I would take the cash refund and reschedule for a time when things will be more fun.


There’s no rescheduling. Fixed week ownership means fixed week.  And depositing into II at this time will yield very little.  We’re hoping that in the next 3 weeks that something changes in Hawaii.  We’ve discussed the possibility of me going by myself and I would just work remote in the room.  I’d pack some freeze dried food and at least have nice weather while I’m working from the balcony.


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## Fasttr (May 1, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> We’ve discussed the possibility of me going by myself and I would just work remote in the room.  I’d pack some freeze dried food and at least have nice weather while I’m working from the balcony.


How to have marital problems step 1.... Go to Hawaii by yourself and leave wife and kids quarantined at home during a pandemic.   ;-)


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## Ricci (May 1, 2020)

Steven, 
Of course it's your decision, but from the articles I have read, you probably are not going to be treated with Aloha when you arrive.  At this point, they want NO visitors and are still trying to figure out a way to stop all incoming flights, which legally they can't.

Depositing with II may not be as bad as you think.


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## MOXJO7282 (May 1, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> There’s no rescheduling. Fixed week ownership means fixed week.  And depositing into II at this time will yield very little.  We’re hoping that in the next 3 weeks that something changes in Hawaii.  We’ve discussed the possibility of me going by myself and I would just work remote in the room.  I’d pack some freeze dried food and at least have nice weather while I’m working from the balcony.


I would think along the same lines so as to get as much value from it as possible especially if I were living on the west coast.  At this point I'm sure many are getting as good as I am with social distancing and would be able to maintain my safety and others that I would somehow come in contact with.  I have to believe you would have the ability order food delivery from many great restaurants and do your part to give something back to the local economy.


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## MOXJO7282 (May 1, 2020)

Ricci said:


> Steven,
> Of course it's your decision, but from the articles I have read, you probably are not going to be treated with Aloha when you arrive.  At this point, they want NO visitors and are still trying to figure out a way to stop all incoming flights, which legally they can't.
> 
> Depositing with II may not be as bad as you think.


I personally don't think at the end of June there will be such a dramatic shutdown and there will be more personal freedom. I hope that is not too optimistic for those that are going. As for the locals my feeling is most want tourist back asap as long as thing are under control.


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## Ricci (May 1, 2020)

Steven is going in late may /early June.


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## frank808 (May 2, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> There’s no rescheduling. Fixed week ownership means fixed week. And depositing into II at this time will yield very little. We’re hoping that in the next 3 weeks that something changes in Hawaii. We’ve discussed the possibility of me going by myself and I would just work remote in the room. I’d pack some freeze dried food and at least have nice weather while I’m working from the balcony.


I am hoping he quarantine is lifted by June 1. If it is not, you can order from instacart and have groceries and items delivered to your room. 

Hope you enjoy your stay and the nice view you will have from the lanai. 

We are the same as you but hoping Disneyworld will be open as we have a flight there on June 11. If parks aren't open, we will just cancell our flights and rooms. 

Stay safe.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## MOXJO7282 (May 2, 2020)

Ricci said:


> Steven is going in late may /early June.


That may be different because they may extend past the end of May if numbers don't rapidly descend in May. I'm still cautiously optimistic we will see that in May.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 2, 2020)

It would be helpful if Hawaii had a chart like California is tracking as follows so we could get a sense of where things stand relative to SIP.


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## Superchief (May 2, 2020)

MOXJO7282 said:


> That may be different because they may extend past the end of May if numbers don't rapidly descend in May. I'm still cautiously optimistic we will see that in May.


I am not confident the number of cases will go down due to the dramatic increase in the testing. Previously, only people with symptoms were tested so mild and asymptomatic cases weren't being identified. There may be a decline in the number of serious cases, but these reports only include total positive tests. These results also include institutional outbreaks such as nursing homes and prisons. Almost a third of cases in Ohio have been institutional, inflating the true infection rate of the general public.


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## Luanne (May 2, 2020)

frank808 said:


> I am hoping he quarantine is lifted by June 1. If it is not, you can order from instacart and have groceries and items delivered to your room.
> 
> Hope you enjoy your stay and the nice view you will have from the lanai.
> 
> ...


Not to hijack the thread, but are you talking about Disneyworld June 2020?  If so, they won't be open.  There have been articles wondering if Disney will even be able to open back up in 2021.


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## csodjd (May 2, 2020)

Ricci said:


> I can't imagine restrictions being totally lifted by June. I suspect the quarantine will be lifted, but there will be limited stores and restaurants open. And if we have to wear masks where ever we go, well.....that's not fun on vacation.


Trying to imagine what you'll look like after sitting in the sun on the beach for a few days with a mask covering you from nose to chin.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 2, 2020)

Disney World has only cancelled DVC confirmations through 5/23.  The rest have not been cancelled.  They are only allowing FP+ to be scheduled 6/1, and that has remained the same.  So they are probably going to have an opening 6/1 (of some kind).  

This pandemic has not been as bad as the experts thought it would be, and there are treatments, and there is a forthcoming vaccine that is already being tested. 

As I said in another thread, we think we had it.  We have appointments on the 14th of May to get our blood checked for antibodies.  I am just curious.


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## dioxide45 (May 2, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Not to hijack the thread, but are you talking about Disneyworld June 2020?  If so, they won't be open.  There have been articles wondering if Disney will even be able to open back up in 2021.


Those articles are talking about worst case planning by Disney. Perhaps prudent on their part but the news likes to always post worst case scenarios. There is still a chance the parks will be open in 2020. No one knows, probably not even Disney.


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## Luanne (May 2, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Disney World has only cancelled DVC confirmations through 5/23.  The rest have not been cancelled.  They are only allowing FP+ to be scheduled 6/1, and that has remained the same.  So they are probably going to have an opening 6/1 (of some kind).
> 
> This pandemic has not been as bad as the experts thought it would be, and there are treatments, and there is a forthcoming vaccine that is already being tested.
> 
> As I said in another thread, we think we had it.  We have appointments on the 14th of May to get our blood checked for antibodies.  I am just curious.


I'd keep an eye on that.  I am seeing a lot more articles and predictions that the Disney parks won't reopen until 2021.  There are also some saying that maybe the parks will open on a very limited basis. As with Hawaii, do you want to go until you can enjoy the whole experience.


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## Luanne (May 2, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Trying to imagine what you'll look like after sitting in the sun on the beach for a few days with a mask covering you from nose to chin.


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## Luanne (May 2, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Those articles are talking about worst case planning by Disney. Perhaps prudent on their part but the news likes to always post worst case scenarios. There is still a chance the parks will be open in 2020. No one knows, probably not even Disney.


And all I was saying is, if you're planning a trip to visit the Disney parks, keep your eyes on what is going on.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 2, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Those articles are talking about worst case planning by Disney. Perhaps prudent on their part but the news likes to always post worst case scenarios. There is still a chance the parks will be open in 2020. No one knows, probably not even Disney.


I agree, and DVC members are sure counting on it.  You cannot find 3 days in a row at any Disney parks from 10/1 on.  Summer is not a bad time to open.  It's miserably hot, and that heat kills the virus in seconds.  Disney is not going to let their employees be without work for months and months.  It's ridiculous to believe they would do that to people.   

I booked us 10/10-10/24 in Orlando.  Looking forward to that.  I am hoping we can take our granddaughter with us.  She will be in kindergarten.


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## Steve Fatula (May 2, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> It would be helpful if Hawaii had a chart like California is tracking as follows so we could get a sense of where things stand relative to SIP.



From the NY Times:


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## rickandcindy23 (May 2, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> From the NY Times:
> 
> View attachment 19980


So they do have a chart.  Seems a bit telling.  Paranoia is alive and well in Hawaii.  The politicians and the Hawaiian natives have wanted us to stay out of their state for a while, so maybe this virus is a good way to keep us out.  Any bus ride on Oahu (tour bus) will give you a nice lecture on how we took over their country by force.  

I do admit that an influx of visitors is likely to bring the virus back into the islands again, but the rest of the country has declines in numbers as well.  The governors need to start planning the opening of their states.  We need people back to work everywhere.  Small businesses are hurting.  Individuals are hurting.


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## csodjd (May 2, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> From the NY Times:
> 
> View attachment 19980


What's notable here to me is that Hawaii appears now to be well within the capabilities of testing, tracing and isolating so as to be able to quickly contain any community spread. Apart from the risk of a large number of carriers coming in as tourists, it seems Hawaii could open up quite a bit. Not that there may not be new infections/cases by doing so, but they could be able to contain it. I tend to think they are being perhaps more conservative than necessary with respect to in-state activity and they should start allowing residents to get back to normal, with appropriate safeguards (no large crowds, social distancing). Tourism is another issue, of course. In that arena it seems they need to continue strict 14-day quarantine unless you demonstrate you are not infected. Get tested within, say, four hours of departure, upon arrival, or any time thereafter, and you don't have to quarantine.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 2, 2020)

oops! posted in the wrong thread. moved.


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## TXTortoise (May 2, 2020)

I do wonder, even for next winter, what happens if on Maui for two weeks, start showing symptoms at day 7-8, but not severe enough for hospital.  Can quarantine until day 14, but then can’t fly out and have to move from room. Not sure coverage for flying you home would apply in this case.


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## csodjd (May 2, 2020)

TXTortoise said:


> I do wonder, even for next winter, what happens if on Maui for two weeks, start showing symptoms at day 7-8, but not severe enough for hospital.  Can quarantine until day 14, but then can’t fly out and have to move from room. Not sure coverage for flying you home would apply in this case.


I think the starting premise is that the chances of becoming infected while in Hawaii should be very, very, small. You'll hopefully have been tested before coming (or upon arriving) so the only way to be showing symptoms would be for you to have gotten it there. But if they have few or no active cases, that's quite unlikely.


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## ljmiii (May 2, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> So they do have a chart.  Seems a bit telling.  Paranoia is alive and well in Hawaii...


It's not paranoia if the whole world *is* out to get you.

Hawaii is in a unique situation. The quarantine to and between the islands combined with mandated closures and social distancing restrictions have meant Hawaii has had very few cases of and deaths from COVID-19. The numbers are dropping like a rock and the islands could be COVID-19 free in a few weeks.

The sixty four thousand dollar questions are "How to you open up the islands without reintroducing COVID-19?", "If you do allow people who have the disease to reenter how do you keep it from spreading through the population?" and, "How long can Hawaii go without tourism?"

The antibody tests we currently have are more or less worthless. Body temperature is a weak indicator of communicability. And a vaccine is 9-18 months away.

I do not envy Governor Ige his choices.


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## dioxide45 (May 2, 2020)

ljmiii said:


> The sixty four thousand dollar questions are "How to you open up the islands without reintroducing COVID-19?", "If you do allow people who have the disease to reenter how do you keep it from spreading through the population?" and, "How long can Hawaii go without tourism?"


I think this is the problem. They could seal themselves off and reduce all COVID cases to zero. But that doesn't help them longer term and that probably shouldn't be the goal. Flattening the curve isn't about reducing cases to zero, but rather not overburgening the health care system. Of course, I don't think Hawaii has the best healthcare system. Not sure why, taxes are high, lots of hotel tax, lots of travelers paying tax. If they do reduce cases to zero, their only way to keep it that way is to still quarantine new arrivals for 14 days which also keeps travelers away. They have no easy way out if a vaccine is 12-18 months away. While COVID free would be a great goal, it shouldn't be the goal. The virus is here to stay. Balancing cases with the economic cost is something that needs to be weighed.


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## csodjd (May 2, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> If they do reduce cases to zero, their only way to keep it that way is to still quarantine new arrivals for 14 days which also keeps travelers away.


Not necessarily. The other way is to ensure people coming have taken a very recent test and it shows no evidence of them being infected. So they get tested before they come, or upon arrival, or quarantined until they take a test providing they are not infected.


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## Dean (May 3, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Not necessarily. The other way is to ensure people coming have taken a very recent test and it shows no evidence of them being infected. So they get tested before they come, or upon arrival, or quarantined until they take a test providing they are not infected.


That doesn't help that much, even if they tested them and had the results immediately as they were getting on the plane to HI, there would still likely be quite a new number of cases get through.  The current testing is no where near perfect in terms of finding who is contagious or infected and it's only historical data.  One may be exposed around the time of the test and contagious going forward but have a negative test not to mention, false negatives.  And current evidence suggests that the antibody testing isn't good at predicting who's protected going forward either.  But it's a moving target as the information and understanding is changing daily.


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## gln60 (May 3, 2020)

I’m very very leery of ANYTHING the NY Times reports...especially the last 4 years


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## dioxide45 (May 3, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Not necessarily. The other way is to ensure people coming have taken a very recent test and it shows no evidence of them being infected. So they get tested before they come, or upon arrival, or quarantined until they take a test providing they are not infected.


This type of requirement still has the propensity of keeping people, perhaps most people, away. I doubt we will ever get to a place were we are able to test large percentages of the population. Rapid testing isn't as reliable as those other tests where people wait 48 hours for their results, so as Dean indicated the ill may still get through. The goal with social distancing and quarantine isn't about getting cases down to 0. It never was. It was about flattening the curve. If Hawaii's health care system can't handle the burden of possibly caring for sick from the mainland or the possibility of people brining the venus from the mainland, then perhaps they should keep the 14 day quarantine until a vaccine is implemented and wide spread, but they will to suffer the economic burden if they go that route.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 3, 2020)

The economy is crashing all across the U.S. and the world.  There are people in a state of depression, both mentally and economically.  It's time to open the country.


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## Luanne (May 3, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> The economy is crashing all across the U.S. and the world.  There are people in a state of depression, both mentally and economically.  It's time to open the country.


Parts of the country are starting to open up.  How "open" do you want things to be?  Completely open to travel, all business.  I get that you have trips planned that you want to take.  The rest of us have lives we'd like to get back to as well.  But, I'm also listening to the health professionals, those who are cautioning that it might be too early to open up.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 3, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Parts of the country are starting to open up.  How "open" do you want things to be?  Completely open to travel, all business.  I get that you have trips planned that you want to take.  The rest of us have lives we'd like to get back to as well.  But, I'm also listening to the health professionals, those who are cautioning that it might be too early to open up.


I don't care about my trips, I don't care about going to Disney before they can open safely or going to Hawaii next month.   I am not selfish.  I care about people and depression and starvation.  If you aren't seeing the long lines at food banks, then change your television channel to a station that cares.  

I care that my own family, my own kids, are suffering from this economic downturn.  I care that my neighbors are suffering and out of work.  I care that we cannot go to church and worship.  We have been denied our right to worship at our churches.  Those are my cares right now.  

I am concerned that my mother-in-law is sitting in her house, terrified of going anywhere right now because we put the fear of God in her (she is 92 in June), which has her scared to go anywhere, for fear she will get sick and die.  We wanted to take HER to Kauai next month, and we even talked about quarantining in our unit, just to spend two weeks with her.  I don't care if we go at this point, but she is so disappointed.


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## ljmiii (May 4, 2020)

Gov Ige recently announced his plan to 'reopen' Hawaii. But it has milestones not dates. And his number one concern is Hawaiians not tourists.

During that press conference Lt. Gov. Josh Green said there are discussions underway about potentially testing visitors before they arrive or requiring documents certifying they’re not sick. But those talks are very preliminary.









						Governor outlines plans to slowly reopen economy as number of new cases decline
					

“The curve has been flattened. But until there is a vaccine or a cure, we are not out of the woods.”




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com


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## ljmiii (May 4, 2020)

Meanwhile, Abbott labs has recently introduced a COVID-19 molecular test that gives results in 5 minutes. Not 100% reliable and not yet cheap but fast enough to test everyone deplaning.  But perhaps a good enough screening tool to begin to allow visitors to Hawaii. Particularly from countries such as Australia and New Zealand which are close to eradicating the disease. Combined with masks, social distancing, and disease tracking, Hawaii may well be able to slowly open up its economy with near zero COVID-19 until a vaccine becomes available.


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## gln60 (May 4, 2020)

I hate to be a downer ,but honestlyIMO,our country won’t be accepting International flights coming or going for a longtime....flights within our country will be a different story,with lots of restrictions


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## Dean (May 4, 2020)

ljmiii said:


> Meanwhile, Abbott labs has recently introduced a COVID-19 molecular test that gives results in 5 minutes. Not 100% reliable and not yet cheap but fast enough to test everyone deplaning.  But perhaps a good enough screening tool to begin to allow visitors to Hawaii. Particularly from countries such as Australia and New Zealand which are close to eradicating the disease. Combined with masks, social distancing, and disease tracking, Hawaii may well be able to slowly open up its economy with near zero COVID-19 until a vaccine becomes available.


As I alluded to above, we really have no idea what a posite or negative test means at this point or even that having antibodies is protective from future risk.  Then there's the false positive and false negative rates to work out as well.


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## Pathways (May 4, 2020)

ljmiii said:


> Abbott labs has recently introduced a COVID-19 molecular test that gives results in 5 minutes. Not 100% reliable and not yet cheap but fast enough to test everyone deplaning



4 tests/hour on each analyzer.  (a positive comes back quicker)  As long as the plane is near empty or they buy a boatload of analyzers it could be fast enough.


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## ljmiii (May 4, 2020)

Pathways said:


> 4 tests/hour on each analyzer.  (a positive comes back quicker)  As long as the plane is near empty or they buy a boatload of analyzers it could be fast enough.


Indeed. My short response is that the improvements in COVID-19 test equipment over the past six weeks have been staggering - both molecular (you have the virus) and antibody (you had the virus). I am hopeful that by October 1st Hawaii might have sufficient confidence in their testing and tracking capability to reopen for tourism.

Long response. Abbott's molecular test is a isothermal nucleic acid amplification test instead of a RT-PCR test which yields faster though thus far less accurate results. That said, the turn around time for RT-PCR test results has dropped dramatically in the past six weeks. All molecular tests suffer from having 'windows' in which a person might be contagious yet show negative.

Antibody tests (also known as Titers or Serology tests) currently vary wildly in effectiveness. It takes about 14 days for the body to produce antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 (the COVID-19 coronavirus) - first IgM antibodies and then IgG antibodies which stay around for some long period of time (how long depends on a number of factors). You want an antibody test that uses the Elisa technique and tests for both IgM and IgG. Also ideally, one that expresses the result as a number along a range and and not a simple positive/negative result. And ideally, ideally you want to administer both molecular and antibody tests simultaneously to get the most accurate answer as to whether someone is communicable.

We have no idea as of yet how effective COVID-19 antibodies are in protecting a person from the disease, how long such protection if any lasts, or how communicability is affected if at all. Antibodies for other diseases have a wide range of effectiveness - those for measles essentially grant lifetime immunity, those for SARS last a couple of years, and those for the common flu are quite limited in duration. Also and as an aside, most people in the US already carry the antibodies for around four other coronaviruses.

Lastly, I mention October 1st because US airlines have been given billions of dollars to keep flying through September 30th. Airlines have already told their personnel to expect flight reductions of 40-80% after that date. Which might allow Hawaii to open to 'limited' tourism without requiring further intervention.


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## csodjd (May 4, 2020)

If the goal of testing is to ensure 100% elimination of any risk of an infected person arriving in Hawaii, well, you're right, the tests may not be good enough and it may not be doable. But that's also an unnecessary and unrealistic goal or bar to set, and will effectively destroy Hawaii financially. If a test is performed within 24 hours of departure to Hawaii, yes, there is a measurable, but very small, risk that the person FIRST became infected after the test and before departure. But that test will still effectively screen out ALMOST every infected person. If Hawaii respects social distancing, masks where appropriate, restaurants are spread out, etc., the risk of 4-5 people arriving is small, and the result easily contained, and probably well within the risk that exists day to day already from a multitude of contagious diseases.


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## Dean (May 4, 2020)

csodjd said:


> If the goal of testing is to ensure 100% elimination of any risk of an infected person arriving in Hawaii, well, you're right, the tests may not be good enough and it may not be doable. But that's also an unnecessary and unrealistic goal or bar to set, and will effectively destroy Hawaii financially. If a test is performed within 24 hours of departure to Hawaii, yes, there is a measurable, but very small, risk that the person FIRST became infected after the test and before departure. But that test will still effectively screen out ALMOST every infected person. If Hawaii respects social distancing, masks where appropriate, restaurants are spread out, etc., the risk of 4-5 people arriving is small, and the result easily contained, and probably well within the risk that exists day to day already from a multitude of contagious diseases.


I can't speak for others but that wasn't my point.  My point was and is that there is no test or even combination of testing that currently does what you're saying.  We don't know if antibody present confers future protection or if so, at what level.  Unless something has changed in the last week none of the antibody testing is FDA approved including the national labs like Quest or LabCorp.  It will take time to work all those things out, likely 3-6 months or more.  Ultimately I think antibody testing will help us determine who's safe going forward both for their own safety and that of others.  My personal opinion is there's no combination of options that will be both safe and effective and save the economy.


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## gln60 (May 4, 2020)

csodjd said:


> If the goal of testing is to ensure 100% elimination of any risk of an infected person arriving in Hawaii, well, you're right, the tests may not be good enough and it may not be doable. But that's also an unnecessary and unrealistic goal or bar to set, and will effectively destroy Hawaii financially. If a test is performed within 24 hours of departure to Hawaii, yes, there is a measurable, but very small, risk that the person FIRST became infected after the test and before departure. But that test will still effectively screen out ALMOST every infected person. If Hawaii respects social distancing, masks where appropriate, restaurants are spread out, etc., the risk of 4-5 people arriving is small, and the result easily contained, and probably well within the risk that exists day to day already from a multitude of contagious diseases.


I suspect that the governor of Hawaii is not interested in social distancing....masks where appropriate or any other guidelines that make SENSE to at least get the states economy up and running......as of right now he is looking  a solution that wont be happening anytime soon,at the EXPENSE of Hawaii's Citizens


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## lynne (May 4, 2020)

gln60 said:


> I suspect that the governor of Hawaii is not interested in social distancing....masks where appropriate or any other guidelines that make SENSE to at least get the states economy up and running......as of right now he is looking  a solution that wont be happening anytime soon,at the EXPENSE of Hawaii's Citizens


Unless you live here where medical resources are scarce, you do not have the right to complain about what our governor is doing to protect the health and well being of the residents.  I am sorry, but I do not hear comments about the rules that governors of other states are doing for their citizens, only Hawaii because there it is a very popular tourist destination.   The people who live here full time will get by.  Yes, it is a hardship but until we can open the state to the people who live here full time, we cannot expect to have it overrun with visitors who feel privileged and come over to break quarantine and ruin it for everyone else.


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## gln60 (May 4, 2020)

lynne said:


> Unless you live here where medical resources are scarce, you do not have the right to complain about what our governor is doing to protect the health and well being of the residents.  I am sorry, but I do not hear comments about the rules that governors of other states are doing for their citizens, only Hawaii because there it is a very popular tourist destination.   The people who live here full time will get by.  Yes, it is a hardship but until we can open the state to the people who live here full time, we cannot expect to have it overrun with visitors who feel privileged and come over to break quarantine and ruin it for everyone else.


I respect your opinion and your right to voice it...and feel “privileged“to be a citizen of our great country....BTW..Im not complaining just stating my opinion..been to beautiful Hawaii a few times and really enjoyed it but have no desire to return


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## Fasttr (May 4, 2020)

lynne said:


> ....we cannot expect to have it overrun with visitors who feel privileged and come over to break quarantine and ruin it for everyone else.


Wow....generalize much??


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## csodjd (May 4, 2020)

lynne said:


> Unless you live here where medical resources are scarce, you do not have the right to complain about what our governor is doing to protect the health and well being of the residents.


I don't live there, much to the dismay of my wife, but I think your Governor is on the right track, though perhaps a bit more conservative than necessary with the residents at this point. Your number of new cases is now so small and staying that way that he can probably let you start coming out more and let your local economies start ticking again because they can test and trace when it is only a few cases statewide. Tourists are a much harder proposition. But the economic impact on your state cannot be addressed with local business alone. Even if they can only bring back 30-50%, that would make a big difference by getting hotels and hotel staffs back to work, along with all the very small businesses that depend on tourists. So I hope and assume he's working on how they can make that happen as the summer progresses.

That all said, it probably doesn't help when CDC reportedly says that they expect the daily number of new cases and deaths to increase 8-10x in the next month or two. If I were the governor and saw that, I'd hold firm on the tourism for a while and concentrate on residents.

Edit: The new forecast from Univ. of Washington predicts 0 new cases of COVID in Hawaii after May. Basically, they predict Hawaii will be COVID-free starting June 1.


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## lynne (May 4, 2020)

Fasttr said:


> Wow....generalize much??


My apologies, but we have had so few visitors and each island has had issues with a number of them breaking quarantine rules where if they stayed in place as directed, there would not be the need to send law enforcement after them and put them on planes back home.  If this issue happens with the few visitors that have been coming here, imagine what will happen with a plane full of folks who do not want to abide by the rules.  









						HTA: 800+ people arrived to the state on Saturday
					

While 823 is a stark difference compared to the nearly 30,000 passengers arriving at this same time last year, it appears to show a steady trend -- the number of visitors is picking back up.




					www.kitv.com
				




"On Friday, 223 visitors arrived - the largest amount since the mandatory quarantine began. We're told it's because those who booked trips before the lockdown got extended another month, are now refusing to cancel.

"We gently request from them to come at another time and change their plans but some of them told us outright that they don't want to do it, that they don't want to change their plans," said Jessica Lani Rich, of the Visitor Aloha Society of Hawaii.

In Waikiki Sunday, residents tell KITV4 they're beginning to notice more visitors hanging around the area."


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## ljmiii (May 4, 2020)

lynne said:


> "On Friday, 223 visitors arrived - the largest amount since the mandatory quarantine began. We're told it's because those who booked trips before the lockdown got extended another month, are now refusing to cancel."


On a personal note and as a sad aside, I cancelled our stay in Waiohai today (just over 61 days). I expect our reservation at HHV will follow in about a month. Unless we find a will and a way to visit Hawaii for all of six days over Xmas/New Years it will be the first time we've been away from the islands for more than a year in over 20 years (my wife went to UH Manoa and we had family and still have many friends on O'ahu).

I wish you and all other Hawaiians the best and honestly envy you the opportunity you have been given. Aloha and Mahalo.


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## Steve A (May 6, 2020)

lynne said:


> Unless you live here where medical resources are scarce, you do not have the right to complain about what our governor is doing to protect the health and well being of the residents.  I am sorry, but I do not hear comments about the rules that governors of other states are doing for their citizens, only Hawaii because there it is a very popular tourist destination.   The people who live here full time will get by.  Yes, it is a hardship but until we can open the state to the people who live here full time, we cannot expect to have it overrun with visitors who feel privileged and come over to break quarantine and ruin it for everyone else.



As a full time resident of Hilton Head and in my late 70s, I’m with Lynne. I witnessed many tourists here on HHI walking around barricades to get to the beach or riding through the closed parks. No masks in the markets. Large groups on the beach.


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## alohakevin (May 7, 2020)

lynne said:


> Unless you live here where medical resources are scarce, you do not have the right to complain about what our governor is doing to protect the health and well being of the residents.  I am sorry, but I do not hear comments about the rules that governors of other states are doing for their citizens, only Hawaii because there it is a very popular tourist destination.   The people who live here full time will get by.  Yes, it is a hardship but until we can open the state to the people who live here full time, we cannot expect to have it overrun with visitors who feel privileged and come over to break quarantine and ruin it for everyone else.



Last I knew this was the United States of America. First amendment anyone? There is always the “ right” to dialogue.


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## lynne (May 7, 2020)

alohakevin said:


> Last I knew this was the United States of America. First amendment anyone? There is always the “ right” to dialogue.


You are correct that everyone has the right to their opinion, but it is exceedingly frustrating that everyone on this board is complaining that Hawaii is requesting visitors stay home while there is complete silence on any of the other states that are doing the same.   How many complaints have there been when other states have closed their timeshares compared to what is happening when it is taking place in Hawaii? 

I apologize that I offended anyone but this is serious for our state.   The state cannot be successful in bringing tourism back until they can open the state to the residents first and determine that the medical facilities can handle any spikes in infections.


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## alohakevin (May 7, 2020)

Ige Backs Off His Suspension Of State Open Government Laws
					

In a new proclamation, the governor asks agencies to do their best when it comes to providing public access to public meetings and records.




					www.civilbeat.org


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## gln60 (May 7, 2020)

lynne said:


> You are correct that everyone has the right to their opinion, but it is exceedingly frustrating that everyone on this board is complaining that Hawaii is requesting visitors stay home while there is complete silence on any of the other states that are doing the same.   How many complaints have there been when other states have closed their timeshares compared to what is happening when it is taking place in Hawaii?
> 
> I apologize that I offended anyone but this is serious for our state.   The state cannot be successful in bringing tourism back until they can open the state to the residents first and determine that the medical facilities can handle any spikes in infections.


Everyone is frustrated....not just you


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## vacationtime1 (May 7, 2020)

alohakevin said:


> Last I knew this was the United States of America. First amendment anyone? There is always the “ right” to dialogue.



During World War II, coastal cities in the US were put under blackout so they would not be visible/obvious to German/Japanese bombers at night.

I wonder how people would have reacted had certain people insisted on keeping their lights on brightly at night to proclaim their First Amendment rights -- threatening the safety of everyone by doing so.

Our forbearers understood that with rights come responsibilities.


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## gln60 (May 7, 2020)

vacationtime1 said:


> During World War II, coastal cities in the US were put under blackout so they would not be visible/obvious to German/Japanese bombers at night.
> 
> I wonder how people would have reacted had certain people insisted on keeping their lights on brightly at night to proclaim their First Amendment rights -- threatening the safety of everyone by doing so.
> 
> Our forbearers understood that with rights come responsibilities.


Agreed...unfortunately this pandemic has become EXTREMELY POLITICAL for OBVIOUS reasons..Lots of mis information the last 4 years by the MSM...no discussion..its their WAY or the HIGHWAY...again for Obvious reasons


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## Steve Fatula (May 7, 2020)

I have my "side", and it's not the MSM (as you say) side for sure. However, that doesn't mean I have to play political. I can have a reasoned point of view despite that. It's very easy to get into that mindset of political, but the virus doesn't care. For the most part, I understand those who want to open up as I am one of them. It has cost me a lot health wise sitting at home not having surgery, some of the restrictions were not well thought out, and some actually killed more people. I see so many people out of work around me. At the same time, I of course understand the health issue. To be good to others, I wear a mask, don't really care if it protects me or not quite honestly. The governor of Hawaii has asked us to not go there, so I won't even if I might otherwise. I understand they don't have the most hospital beds to be charitable.

It's a huge tradeoff. You can't win either way. If you open things up and 1 extra person can be claimed to have died, you upset one group of people. After all, a governor said yesterday human life is invaluable, priceless which should mean never open up if that were truly his #1 priority. But then he said he was pondering the best way to open up.  Which can't be, since human life as he said was by far the most important thing. I get it though, both are true. But at some point, we have to admit to ourselves that some extra will die when we open up. And therefore, it isn't priceless even though we would never say that. That's the cold hard facts of the situation. There will be a point where we open up despite costs of life. It's a matter of where is that line. I wouldn't want to be a governor right now. There are arguments for and against. Both are right in my view.


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## gln60 (May 7, 2020)

Agreed.....all I’m saying is that the MSM makes everything about politics..and its been that way for the last 4 years..difference of opinions is what this country was founded on...dialogue and debate on differences is the only way to come to a rational decision.....knowingly lying to the American people day after day..month after month and year after year to achieve political gain(power) at all cost is dangerous to our country...they know who they are and quite frankly...they Don’t Care.....That’s the sad part..sorry to ramble


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## ljmiii (May 7, 2020)

It will be interesting to see what happens economically in Hawaii (and Australia and a few other countries) when in a few weeks the disease is more or less eradicated.  When everyone can just go out and shop, eat at restaurants, etc. Yes, they will be wearing masks but so what...much of Asia did the same after SARS.


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## lynne (May 7, 2020)

gln60 said:


> Everyone is frustrated....not just you


Aloha gln60 - I don't think you really understood my post.  My frustration comes from the Hawaii-centric complaints that our governor is requesting no visitors and requiring those who continue to come here, quarantine for 14 days.   I don't hear these same complaints when the other governors are attempting to keep their states safe.  Mike DeWine of Ohio is a great example of doing the right thing.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 7, 2020)

Right thing, wrong thing.  It's not like anyone really knows much about the pandemic and if it is going to spread like wildfire and kill as many people as originally projected.  I think the governors and the rest of the country are just praying that they are doing the right thing.  No matter what state it is.  

There will be a cost to this shutdown of our country, and the cost will be lives, but many won't die of this virus.  Some won't lose their lives but will lose their livelihoods.  I am sorry for those who will lose businesses, jobs, and even their homes.  The economic devastation will be brutal.  And that is not political at all.  People are filing for unemployment in our country.  

We are retired but have a lot of MF's to pay, so I am going to be trying to get out of some of those.   I have sold one unit and hope to sell some others.  It's just important to me.  Next year, there will be a lot of MF increases because people won't be able to afford theirs, and that will cost us all.


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## gln60 (May 7, 2020)

lynne said:


> Aloha gln60 - I don't think you really understood my post.  My frustration comes from the Hawaii-centric complaints that our governor is requesting no visitors and requiring those who continue to come here, quarantine for 14 days.   I don't hear these same complaints when the other governors are attempting to keep their states safe.  Mike DeWine of Ohio is a great example of doing the right thing.


I can understand your point.....No doubt that Hawaii is an awesome vacation spot and I think most of the complaints stem from travelers who are frustrated and terribly disappointed by the fact that Hawaaii travel from the mainland requires lots of planning....especially if travelers dont live on the west coast...i believe that once the travelers Hawaii Vacation week has passed its not that easy to reschedule that type of trip...getting an open date for the resort and availability when you can travel..it becomes complicated....most likely most people will have to wait till next year......its frustrating as heck...im sure that the governor of Hawaii is looking out whats best not only for his citizens...but also for guests...now,that being said im not sure i would make that statement for a group of governors on the mainland.....in any event..thanks for the reply.


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## csodjd (May 7, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> It's a huge tradeoff. You can't win either way. If you open things up and 1 extra person can be claimed to have died, you upset one group of people. After all, a governor said yesterday human life is invaluable, priceless which should mean never open up if that were truly his #1 priority. But then he said he was pondering the best way to open up. Which can't be, since human life as he said was by far the most important thing. I get it though, both are true. But at some point, we have to admit to ourselves that some extra will die when we open up. And therefore, it isn't priceless even though we would never say that. That's the cold hard facts of the situation. There will be a point where we open up despite costs of life. It's a matter of where is that line. I wouldn't want to be a governor right now. There are arguments for and against. Both are right in my view.


If they, or anywhere, opens up, some will die in car accidents coming and going that would not have otherwise died. So it can never be *just *about doing everything possible to ensure nobody ever dies. To me, this is more about managing a contagious disease. The economy should not control that, it's the other way around. Whatever occurs in/to the economy results from whatever is necessary to manage the disease. That, in turn, depends on the characteristics of the disease itself. This is easy to demonstrate. Assume this exact same virus/disease was 100% fatal - if you get it, you die, at least until a treatment is found. Would that change the view on whether "extreme" measures and business shut downs are necessary? Now assume it is NEVER fatal, and almost never requires admission to a hospital. Would THAT change the view on what measures are necessary?

I hope people see from the examples that it becomes self-evident that it is the disease that controls the steps we take and their impact on the economy, not the other way around.

If that is understood, then we realize reasonable minds may differ, but until there is DATA the only option is to choose between erring on the side of caution or on the side of risk in terms of managing the disease. In this virus almost nothing was known of its fatality rate or clinical manifestations initially. Government sided on caution. Some with more caution than others. What I find so frustrating is that smart people, people that run public health for the Country, put out a plan to find that line between caution and risk, to open up as fast as possible while causing as little harm as possible. And so many are just saying, no. We prefer more risk, and they attack those that want to trust the experts and follow the path they laid out as if that is "wrong" and they are "right."


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## Steve Fatula (May 7, 2020)

csodjd said:


> If they, or anywhere, opens up, some will die in car accidents coming and going that would not have otherwise died. So it can never be *just *about doing everything possible to ensure nobody ever dies. To me, this is more about managing a contagious disease. The economy should not control that, it's the other way around. Whatever occurs in/to the economy results from whatever is necessary to manage the disease. That, in turn, depends on the characteristics of the disease itself. This is easy to demonstrate. Assume this exact same virus/disease was 100% fatal - if you get it, you die, at least until a treatment is found. Would that change the view on whether "extreme" measures and business shut downs are necessary? Now assume it is NEVER fatal, and almost never requires admission to a hospital. Would THAT change the view on what measures are necessary?



Sure, however, the opposite is also true. If we were only about saving lives and letting the disease dictate things, then, let's assume we send everyone home after all the only thing that matters is saving lives. What will happen? 100% death rate.

Also, using your logic, I am going to use that dreaded flu argument (no I am not nor have ever said it's the same thing), since people do die from the flu, should we close the economy every winter? After all, it's lives that matter.

A balance is what is needed. To destroy the economy and forget what it was like during the great depression (you do NOT want to go to that), is not a good thing either. There will be starvation, it's coming on the current path. The reality is this virus is not 100% fatal. It's likely way under 1% fatal when the final numbers come out.

I do agree with you there are steps needing to be taken to help control the virus. Never said there wasn't. To suggest though that lockdowns should continue for years (assuming it takes that long for a vaccine, which we may never get actually), is not wise in my view. The state with the most cases just stated that recently, over 60% of all new cases were coming from stay at home people. That's a fact. Not sure it is accomplishing what it was meant to do. No one can indefinitely stay at home, just not possible. They will be exposed. The difference is only in the timing, they are either exposed sooner, or later. The outcome will likely be the same, except, in the case we get an early cure/vaccine.

If you wish to discuss further, please DM me. 

But this thread is about Hawaii. For me, I will honor and respect whatever the state of Hawaii decides.


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## Fasttr (May 7, 2020)

@StevenTing.... look what you started.  ;-)


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## Dean (May 7, 2020)

lynne said:


> Aloha gln60 - I don't think you really understood my post.  My frustration comes from the Hawaii-centric complaints that our governor is requesting no visitors and requiring those who continue to come here, quarantine for 14 days.   I don't hear these same complaints when the other governors are attempting to keep their states safe.  Mike DeWine of Ohio is a great example of doing the right thing.


I think HI is a little unique because of it’s popularity and isolation but there are complaints all over and from both sides of the isle.  I believe some of us are more concerned about the economy and some more about the health issues.  Personally I tend to be more concerned about the economy and my view on the virus is there’s no way to truly wait it out, only draw it out.  If HI can’t handle the medical issues beyond their current level of effort and they can survive the economic impact, then they should stay closed indefinitely but to do so we’re likely talking 12-18 months to satisfy that side of the equation, not 2-3 months more.


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## csodjd (May 7, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> But this thread is about Hawaii. For me, I will honor and respect whatever the state of Hawaii decides.


And I'm hoping they come up with a good workable solution, even if there are compromises... I have two weeks scheduled for November.


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## JIMinNC (May 7, 2020)

Steve A said:


> As a full time resident of Hilton Head and in my late 70s, I’m with Lynne. I witnessed many tourists here on HHI walking around barricades to get to the beach or riding through the closed parks. No masks in the markets. Large groups on the beach.



Steve, we've been at our Hilton Head condo in Palmetto Dunes the last two weekends, and spent some time on the beach both times. While our observation is like yours that there were some groups of people (4-8 people each maybe), to our eye, all appeared to be family groups or close friends who would likely be socializing together (rightly or wrongly) at their homes if they weren't on the beach. Given the location in PD, I would assume some were tourists and some were at least property owners like us (but probably few, if any, full time residents). I do know that owner-occupancy of the condos in PD is supposedly much higher than normal now for this time of the year and renter occupancy is way down. We don't plan to rent our unit since we bought it to use frequently.

In any event, I think it's far preferable for family members who live together under the same roof, or close friends who still get together socially, to do so outside on the beach where it's harder for viruses to spread than inside where viruses can easily spread to others. The fact that NY Gov. Cuomo said that something like 68% of recent hospitalizations say they had been obeying stay home orders tells me that spreading within close family groups is a bigger risk than people going outside to the park or the beach. 

I've felt from the beginning that targeting beaches was the wrong tactic. I think it stemmed primarily from all the photos and videos of spring breakers partying on the beaches back in March. I have no data to back it up, but my hunch is whatever COVID spreading these spring breakers did, more likely came from their interactions in the bars and having 4-5 kids share one hotel room than the time they spent outside in the sun on the beach.

I agree about the markets though. My wife had to go pick up something at Kroger and said mask use in HHI was much less prevalent than here in Charlotte.


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## ilene13 (May 7, 2020)

lynne said:


> You are correct that everyone has the right to their opinion, but it is exceedingly frustrating that everyone on this board is complaining that Hawaii is requesting visitors stay home while there is complete silence on any of the other states that are doing the same.   How many complaints have there been when other states have closed their timeshares compared to what is happening when it is taking place in Hawaii?
> 
> I apologize that I offended anyone but this is serious for our state.   The state cannot be successful in bringing tourism back until they can open the state to the residents first and determine that the medical facilities can handle any spikes in infections.


Lynne I totally agree with your governor.  I live in Sarasota, Florida and our governor s a bit loosely goose!  I wish he would make a statement!


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## csodjd (May 7, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> In any event, I think it's far preferable for family members who live together under the same roof, or close friends who still get together socially, to do so outside on the beach where it's harder for viruses to spread than inside where viruses can easily spread to others. The fact that NY Gov. Cuomo said that something like 68% of recent hospitalizations say they had been obeying stay home orders tells me that spreading within close family groups is a bigger risk than people going outside to the park or the beach.


UC San Francisco just completed a study seeking to test each person living in the Mission District of SF. They tested for antibodies and for active infection. They found 2.1% were positive, and that of those, 90% could not work from home and were going out of their home to work. Notably (to me), about 50% had no symptoms.









						Initial Results of Mission District COVID-19 Testing Announced
					

The testing was conducted by Unidos En Salud, a unique partnership between Mission community organizers in the Latino Task Force for COVID-19, UCSF researchers, the City and County of San Francisco, and the San Francisco Department of Public Health.




					www.ucsf.edu
				




I'm sure you are right that risk of spread ON the beach is very small. But those going to/from the beach also stop for gas, stop to pick up some food, and things like that. I think there is little doubt based just on common sense that they more you are out the more likely you are to become infected or infect others.


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## TXTortoise (May 7, 2020)

Maui opening up a bit on Monday...









						Retails store given green light to open on May 11 in Maui County
					

HONOLULU (KHON2) — Mayor Michael Victorino announced that retail stores and retail stores in shopping malls will be allowed to reopen as long as they follow physical distancing requirements, …




					www.khon2.com


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## rickandcindy23 (May 7, 2020)

Are the tourists really obvious in HHI?


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## StevenTing (May 7, 2020)

Fasttr said:


> @StevenTing.... look what you started.  ;-)



I'm just sitting here with my bucket of popcorn.  This thread has more than been derailed.  It's way off the tracks.  I just want to be in my happy place, not stuck down in my basement thinking of all of the bad things in the world.  Things will get better.  Just hoping that it's sooner than later.


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## csodjd (May 7, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Are the tourists really obvious in HHI?


I always try and walk around with a camera hanging down from around my neck.


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## csodjd (May 7, 2020)

Seems to me that if we guarantee that we'll bath in and drink multiple Mai Tai's daily, which will surely kill any virus, we should be allowed to come to Hawaii and sit on the beach.


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## rickandcindy23 (May 7, 2020)

csodjd said:


> I always try and walk around with a camera hanging down from around my neck.


And a wild Hawaiian shirt with a drink in your hand, long black socks, shorts and sandals.


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## JIMinNC (May 7, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Are the tourists really obvious in HHI?



It depends on the particular beach and the area. There are some beaches on HHI that are limited to people who have a resident sticker on their car (available to any property owner - either full time or part time). Most of the beaches in front of the hotels and timeshares are hard to get to unless you are staying there, so most people would assume anyone there are tourists. At least were our condo is in Palmetto Dunes, a lot of the condos and villas closest to the beaches are used as part time vacation homes or as rentals, so people on the beaches there can fairly easily be assumed to not being full-time HHI residents - some may be property owners like us, but not full time residents. The beaches that adjoin the more residential areas of Port Royal Plantation, Palmetto Dunes, and Sea Pines may be more likely to be full-time residents or part-time residents, but even some of those houses are on the rental market.

A lot of the anger/angst that has been directed at "tourists" on HHI has really been directed at people with out-of-state license plates. Early in the pandemic ugly notes were being placed on people's cars with NY or NJ license plates in grocery store parking lots telling them to take their virus back home, when in fact these folks were snowbirds who live on HHI 4-5 months a year and had been on the island since December or early January. There were some tourists too, but it was an "indictment by license plate" mentality.


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## StevenTing (May 8, 2020)

I have another reason to hate the Hawaii Governor right now. Just saw this little detail in the latest proclamation. Pretty much means you can’t get a rental car for the first 14 days on the island. So I guess that means we have to take an shuttle or something.

One step forward, two steps back.


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## Steve Fatula (May 8, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> I have another reason to hate the Hawaii Governor right now. Just saw this little detail in the latest proclamation. Pretty much means you can’t get a rental car for the first 14 days on the island. So I guess that means we have to take an shuttle or something.
> 
> One step forward, two steps back.



That's strange, would think a shuttle or other shared ride would cause more potential exposure than renting your own car. I guess though the idea may be to discourage you from going around during quarantine?


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## frank808 (May 8, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> That's strange, would think a shuttle or other shared ride would cause more potential exposure than renting your own car. I guess though the idea may be to discourage you from going around during quarantine?


Yes that was governor's reasoning. No rental car, makes it harder to break quarantine. 

Good news on Oahu. Will be able to start going shopping for non essentials starting nexr Friday May 15.

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


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## vol_90 (May 8, 2020)

frank808 said:


> Yes that was governor's reasoning. No rental car, makes it harder to break quarantine.
> 
> Good news on Oahu. Will be able to start going shopping for non essentials starting nexr Friday May 15.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


Awesome, I need a hair cut!  Working on the surfer dude mop....


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## Steve A (May 8, 2020)

HHI tourists are pretty obvious in the Kroger. They tend to shop in family groups and buy lots of water, beer, soda and empty calories. Many are in bathing suits underneath tops. Tourists ride their bikes in large groups and don’t always keep to the right on the paths and some ignore the stop signs.

Jim:

You cannot rent for less then six months in Port Royal. However, because of the age of our owners then are often lots of young adults and grandchildren and nieces and nephews around especially now and usually vacation time. About 50% are full time residents.


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## gln60 (May 8, 2020)

Steve A said:


> HHI tourists are pretty obvious in the Kroger. They tend to shop in family groups and buy lots of water, beer, soda and empty calories. Many are in bathing suits underneath tops. Tourists ride their bikes in large groups and don’t always keep to the right on the paths and some ignore the stop signs.
> 
> Jim:
> 
> You cannot rent for less then six months in Port Royal. However, because of the age of our owners then are often lots of young adults and grandchildren and nieces and nephews around especially now and usually vacation time. About 50% are full time residents.


Empty calories...beer...soda.....and dont always keep to the right and ignore stop signs......HOW DARE THEY.......LOL


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## b2bailey (May 8, 2020)

Fasttr said:


> How to have marital problems step 1.... Go to Hawaii by yourself and leave wife and kids quarantined at home during a pandemic.   ;-)


Or not.


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## burg1121 (May 8, 2020)

Virus gonna do what the virus wants to do you can’t do that much about it. A great financial depression will be far worse and we can do something to avoid that. How many Coronavirus vaccines have been created in the past? 
None.


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## Ken555 (May 8, 2020)

burg1121 said:


> Virus gonna do what the virus wants to do you can’t do that much about it.



Are you washing your hands? If so, then it seems you’re doing something...regardless of what the virus does.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## pedro47 (May 9, 2020)

csodjd said:


> I always try and walk around with a camera hanging down from around my neck.


Why take a camera liked a tourist,  just use your cellphones and takes photos.


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## JIMinNC (May 9, 2020)

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2020/...yrwzSD90oiF6SCRHUIKNz4hPZo919H2DJH3nHliauGWWk

Doesn't sound like they are planning on the 14-day quarantine ending soon.


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## ilene13 (May 9, 2020)

People are oblivious in Sarasota also!


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## csodjd (May 9, 2020)

JIMinNC said:


> https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2020/...yrwzSD90oiF6SCRHUIKNz4hPZo919H2DJH3nHliauGWWk
> 
> Doesn't sound like they are planning on the 14-day quarantine ending soon.


Well, not before the end of the month, but since it is that 14-day quarantine that is effectively shutting Hawaii down to tourism, I suspect it'll be extended much longer. 

At some point, however, one must wonder what the justification/rationale is or will be for continuing to ban tourists, especially US citizens. In a matter of weeks Hawaii will probably be free of any active cases of coronavirus. Let's assume at some point they have gone two weeks without a single known new infection. At that point barring or placing an undue burden on tourists (a burden not placed on residents) starts to raise constitutional questions -- the bar on a state imposing a law that prevents residents of other states from entering freely (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law which explains the fundamental constitutional right to enter and leave a state freely). The argument that they are doing so to prevent risk of infection becomes questionable on multiple grounds. For one, they no longer have any health emergency if they have no COVID. Second, the ADA bars discriminating on the of an illness. And then there is the fact that people with contagious diseases have been coming freely into Hawaii for decades. Hawaii will have to square the Constitutional right with the public health concern, and that gets hard to do when they are virus-free and allow residents to move about without the quarantine.


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## gln60 (May 9, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Well, not before the end of the month, but since it is that 14-day quarantine that is effectively shutting Hawaii down to tourism, I suspect it'll be extended much longer.
> 
> At some point, however, one must wonder what the justification/rationale is or will be for continuing to ban tourists, especially US citizens. In a matter of weeks Hawaii will probably be free of any active cases of coronavirus. Let's assume at some point they have gone two weeks without a single known new infection. At that point barring or placing an undue burden on tourists (a burden not placed on residents) starts to raise constitutional questions -- the bar on a state imposing a law that prevents residents of other states from entering freely (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law which explains the fundamental constitutional right to enter and leave a state freely). The argument that they are doing so to prevent risk of infection becomes questionable on multiple grounds. For one, they no longer have any health emergency if they have no COVID. Second, the ADA bars discriminating on the of an illness. And then there is the fact that people with contagious diseases have been coming freely into Hawaii for decades. Hawaii will have to square the Constitutional right with the public health concern, and that gets hard to do when they are virus-free and allow residents to move about without the quarantine.


Great point......I’m sure many will be watching


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## Steve Fatula (May 9, 2020)

csodjd said:


> And then there is the fact that people with contagious diseases have been coming freely into Hawaii for decades.



I would disagree only with this part of your post. Otherwise, I agree with you. While the statement is true, it's misleading as this disease is more contagious (and deadly). But the logic is sound I believe. If they grant their own citizens the ability to do as they please or even close, it's going to be hard for them to restrict inbound traffic legally. Not addressing if the need is valid or not, just the legality.


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## vol_90 (May 9, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Well, not before the end of the month, but since it is that 14-day quarantine that is effectively shutting Hawaii down to tourism, I suspect it'll be extended much longer.
> 
> At some point, however, one must wonder what the justification/rationale is or will be for continuing to ban tourists, especially US citizens. In a matter of weeks Hawaii will probably be free of any active cases of coronavirus. Let's assume at some point they have gone two weeks without a single known new infection. At that point barring or placing an undue burden on tourists (a burden not placed on residents) starts to raise constitutional questions -- the bar on a state imposing a law that prevents residents of other states from entering freely (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law which explains the fundamental constitutional right to enter and leave a state freely). The argument that they are doing so to prevent risk of infection becomes questionable on multiple grounds. For one, they no longer have any health emergency if they have no COVID. Second, the ADA bars discriminating on the of an illness. And then there is the fact that people with contagious diseases have been coming freely into Hawaii for decades. Hawaii will have to square the Constitutional right with the public health concern, and that gets hard to do when they are virus-free and allow residents to move about without the quarantine.


Just to clarify there is no "ban" on tourists only a mandatory 14 quarantine in place through May 31st and likely longer for all arrivals including residents and inter Island travel.  Correct it is effectively shutting down tourism although ~220 non residents did arrive 2 days ago.  

I believe we are down to 3 rooms occupied at the Marriott Ko Olina Beach Club


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## frank808 (May 9, 2020)

Steve Fatula said:


> I would disagree only with this part of your post. Otherwise, I agree with you. While the statement is true, it's misleading as this disease is more contagious (and deadly). But the logic is sound I believe. If they grant their own citizens the ability to do as they please or even close, it's going to be hard for them to restrict inbound traffic legally. Not addressing if the need is valid or not, just the legality.



BOTH residents and non residents are subject to the same 14 day quarantine restrictions. 

You can leave the state before 14 days quarantine is up. So no one is held hostage.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## cman (May 10, 2020)

csodjd said:


> At some point, however, one must wonder what the justification/rationale is or will be for continuing to ban tourists, especially US citizens. In a matter of weeks Hawaii will probably be free of any active cases of coronavirus.



The "justification/rationale", is that Hawaii simply does not have the healthcare infrastructure to handle a COVID-19 outbreak. They only have 45 available ICU beds for the entire state. An influx of tourist would cripple their healthcare system. Oh, and just for the sake of accuracy, Hawaii has did not "ban" tourists. They just require a 14 day quarantine. By the way, 16 other states, including my home state of Texas, have similar restrictions for domestic travelers.




csodjd said:


> Let's assume at some point they have gone two weeks without a single known new infection. At that point barring or placing an undue burden on tourists (a burden not placed on residents) starts to raise constitutional questions


That would be a "question" you'd be hard pressed to get any federal court to entertain. Governors have the right to exercise emergency powers. The 14 day quarantine was issued under those powers. 16 other state governors have implemented similar restrictions by invoking their emergency powers.[/QUOTE]



csodjd said:


> For one, they no longer have any health emergency if they have no COVID.


Addressed this above, but just to be clear. The, "health emergency", is the lack of healthcare infrastructure. Without adequate testing and contact tracing ability, an outbreak can't be detected or contained. Now, the good news is that Hawaii is making progress to put in place the things needed to open. They've spent $15.6 million to increase their testing capacity, and are doubling their contact tracing staff and are hiring and training them as fast as they can. But, until those things are in place, it would be suicide for Hawaii to open prematurely. If they don't do this right, who's going to come save them?

I can assure you that the Hawaiian government is not enjoying the 30% unemployment rate, or the destruction of their economy. They're motivated more than any of us to get things up and running as soon as possible. I'm missing out on a vacation. They're parked in a mile long food bank line, wondering how they're going to support their families. I can't imagine the anguish those government leaders are facing. But they're moving in the right direction, step one was to flatten the curve, and they exceeded all expectations in accomplishing that goal. Now it's on to increasing testing and contact tracing.


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## csodjd (May 10, 2020)

vol_90 said:


> Just to clarify *there is no "ban" on tourists* only a mandatory 14 quarantine in place through May 31st and likely longer for all arrivals including residents and inter Island travel.  Correct it is effectively shutting down tourism although ~220 non residents did arrive 2 days ago.
> 
> I believe we are down to 3 rooms occupied at the Marriott Ko Olina Beach Club


With all due respect, when you are barred from leaving your room, tourism is banned. Tourism is not physical presence, it is an activity. Beyond that, the result is a ban. It would be akin to passing a $100,000/night tax on each room. You're free to come, so there is no "ban." Nonsense. It's like a facially neutral job requirement that has a discriminatory effect. 

So, yes, tourism is, as a practical matter, banned.


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## csodjd (May 10, 2020)

cman said:


> Governors have the right to exercise emergency powers. The 14 day quarantine was issued under those powers.


The right is not without limits. Governors, like Presidents, are not dictators. At some point the "necessary" exercise of that power becomes excessive and unnecessary. The balance is with a fundamental constitutional right. Not sure how familiar you are with constitutional law, but examine the issue of scrutiny where a "fundamental" right is affected. You will find that "laws" (orders) infringing fundamental constitutional rights have a very high bar to pass muster. (People are often surprised to learn that not all constitutional rights are created equally. Fundamental rights are treated very differently.)


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## csodjd (May 10, 2020)

cman said:


> Addressed this above, but just to be clear. The, "health emergency", is the lack of healthcare infrastructure. Without adequate testing and contact tracing ability, an outbreak can't be detected or contained.


The question would be, is a total or near total bar to tourism necessary. Or should tourism be permitted to the extent the testing and tracing can reasonably deal with it? Again, examine the concept of "Strict Scrutiny" that is applied to infringements of fundamental rights (which includes the right of interstate travel). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_scrutiny
In American constitutional law, *strict scrutiny* is the highest and most stringent standard of judicial review, and results in a judge striking down a law unless the government can demonstrate in court that a law or regulation:

is necessary to a "compelling state interest";
that the law is "narrowly tailored" to achieving this compelling purpose;
and that the law uses the "least restrictive means" to achieve the purpose.
A law or order that effectively limits or bars ALL non-resident US Citizens from coming to Hawaii, and ends there, is not "narrowly tailored" or the "least restrictive means" of achieving the purpose of protecting the healthcare infrastructure. For instance, one can be required to be tested before coming and within 24 hours of arriving. That is tailored and not as restrictive. Thus, if that is feasible, the order would be unconstitutional.


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## vol_90 (May 10, 2020)

csodjd said:


> With all due respect, when you are barred from leaving your room, tourism is banned. Tourism is not physical presence, it is an activity. Beyond that, the result is a ban. It would be akin to passing a $100,000/night tax on each room. You're free to come, so there is no "ban." Nonsense. It's like a facially neutral job requirement that has a discriminatory effect.
> 
> So, yes, tourism is, as a practical matter, banned.


In a purely technical sense it is not banned.  Come quarantine for 14 days "in your room" and enjoy the outdoors and scenery after that.  Fortunately I arrived on March 24th but was prepared to quarantine for 14 days if my arrival was delayed on or after March 26th.  For a temporary residence I couldn't ask for a safer place to ride out the virus until I'm allowed to return to my overseas location.


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## cman (May 10, 2020)

csodjd said:


> With all due respect, when you are barred from leaving your room, tourism is banned. Tourism is not physical presence, it is an activity. Beyond that, the result is a ban. It would be akin to passing a $100,000/night tax on each room. You're free to come, so there is no "ban." Nonsense. It's like a facially neutral job requirement that has a discriminatory effect.
> 
> So, yes, tourism is, as a practical matter, banned.


Call it tourism, travel or whatever you want. The bottom line is that governors, have the right to exercise their emergency powers to limit either. Never heard of a "right of tourism", but in any event, governors have the right to restrict domestic travel into their states, and I am of the opinion that Governor Ige, acted in the best interest of his constituents.


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## cman (May 10, 2020)

csodjd said:


> The right is not without limits. Governors, like Presidents, are not dictators.


Whoa...I don't think it's fair to compare Hawaii's governor to a "dictator". His mission is to ensure the health and safety of his citizens. So far, he's done an excellent job. His main concern is not ensuring that "I" have a wonderful vacation. His job is to ensure the health and safety of the state's residents. From what I've observed, his priorities are properly placed.


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## frank808 (May 10, 2020)

csodjd said:


> With all due respect, when you are barred from leaving your room, tourism is banned. Tourism is not physical presence, it is an activity. Beyond that, the result is a ban. It would be akin to passing a $100,000/night tax on each room. You're free to come, so there is no "ban." Nonsense. It's like a facially neutral job requirement that has a discriminatory effect.
> 
> So, yes, tourism is, as a practical matter, banned.


Legislators could introduce a bill with a $100,000 a night room tax. As long as it it applied to all rooms and does not discrimate.

A bill like that would ruin the economy here so would not be in the best interests of most here. If a politician Introduced a bill like that, it would most undoubtedly be political suicide.

Again everyone is placed under quarantine for 14 days. There is no discrimination between visitors and residents as everyone must endure it. On the 15th day, if you are well you are free to explore and enjoy any public venue you wish. Until those 14 days are up, you are in quarantine of your quarters.

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


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## StevenTing (May 10, 2020)

Hawai‘i Senate COVID-19 Committee Reports Travel Quarantine Will Likely be Extended | Maui Now
					

The Hawai‘i State Senate Special Committee on COVID-19 discussed CARES Act aid, the likely extension of the 14-day travel quarantine, and increased costs associated with airport operations amid the ongoing pandemic.




					mauinow.com
				




Not happy about this either. Seems like we were making progress to remove the quarantine. Makes me bitter and spiteful.

Holding out one more week.


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## mjm1 (May 10, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> Hawai‘i Senate COVID-19 Committee Reports Travel Quarantine Will Likely be Extended | Maui Now
> 
> 
> The Hawai‘i State Senate Special Committee on COVID-19 discussed CARES Act aid, the likely extension of the 14-day travel quarantine, and increased costs associated with airport operations amid the ongoing pandemic.
> ...



Very sorry to hear that given Hawai’i’s cases and deaths are very low. Our daughter and her family are still hoping to go to Oahu and Maui starting June 20. I will share this update with them. I’m sure they will hold out as long as possible.

Best regards.

Mike


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## CalGalTraveler (May 10, 2020)

vol_90 said:


> Just to clarify there is no "ban" on tourists only a mandatory 14 quarantine in place through May 31st and likely longer for all arrivals including residents and inter Island travel.  Correct it is effectively shutting down tourism although ~220 non residents did arrive 2 days ago.
> 
> I believe we are down to 3 rooms occupied at the Marriott Ko Olina Beach Club



I bet those non-residents have vacation homes or relatives in the area and plan to stay much longer than 2 weeks. Hawaii may be an attractive and safe place to SIP if this is all they are allowing into the state and the cases have declined.

The challenge is even if they open just to domestic, demand is so high it may end up like Marco Island. How do you manage the floodgates?


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## Ken555 (May 10, 2020)

I’m just happy Hawai’i seems to be under control. That is not the place I would want to be if it was spreading exponentially, as it’s still doing in parts of the States.

Not sure why anyone would blame them for protecting their residents, but whatever. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## DannyTS (May 10, 2020)

cman said:


> The "justification/rationale", is that Hawaii simply does not have the healthcare infrastructure to handle a COVID-19 outbreak. They only have 45 available ICU beds for the entire state.



Since they have no way of knowing if they would not need more than 45 in the future, I assume they are addressing this issue, they have had 2 months to prepare.


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## dioxide45 (May 10, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Since they have no way of knowing if they would not need more than 45 in the future, I assume they are addressing this issue, they have had 2 months to prepare.


I think the 45 is incorrect. According to this article it is 340;









						Surge of coronavirus patients could cripple Oahu hospitals
					

Hawaii hospitals could be under tremendous strain as more patients diagnosed with the new coronavirus and other serious medical conditions inundate medical facilities.




					www.staradvertiser.com


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## cman (May 10, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> I think the 45 is incorrect. According to this article it is 340;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I got the number from the IMHE website and it corresponds to the data from the state health department. Remember, were talking about "available" ICU beds;
Scoll down to the "Hospital resource usage" section and select, "ICU Beds".








						IHME | COVID-19 Projections
					

Explore forecasts of COVID-19 cases, deaths, and hospital resource use.




					covid19.healthdata.org


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## Pathways (May 10, 2020)

cman said:


> I got the number from the IMHE website and it corresponds to the data



DO NOT believe the IHME numbers without checking. The are frequently *way off*.

Indiana Numbers:

IHME says 806 ICU beds needed May 8, only 706 available, 706 vents needed.

State Dep of Health says 481 ICU beds in use, 2238 available, 218 vents in use, 2806 available.

And this is not an anomaly.  Indiana has said the IHME models have been so far off that they are no longer paying any attention to them


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## cman (May 10, 2020)

Pathways said:


> DO NOT believe the IHME numbers without checking. The are frequently *way off*.
> 
> Indiana Numbers:
> 
> ...



Do you believe the Hawaii State Department of Health? Here's a link to a list of the licensed acute care bed capacity. Notice that they have only 227 critical care beds. Historically, 75-80% of those beds are occupied (their ICU average occupancy is higher than average for the USA). Based on this, I can easily see them having only 45 "available" ICU beds. Here's a link to the data;



			https://health.hawaii.gov/shpda/files/2019/11/Table-1-Licensed-Acute-Care-Bed-Capacity.pdf


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## Pathways (May 10, 2020)

cman said:


> Do you believe the Hawaii State Department of Health? Here's a link to a list of the licensed acute care bed capacity. Notice that they have only 227 critical care beds. Historically, 75-80% of those beds are occupied (their ICU average occupancy is higher than average for the USA). Based on this, I can easily see them having only 45 "available" ICU beds. Here's a link to the data;
> 
> 
> 
> https://health.hawaii.gov/shpda/files/2019/11/Table-1-Licensed-Acute-Care-Bed-Capacity.pdf



Not sure your point.  In your earlier post you already compared the data from both sources.  My point was for anyone looking (in general) at the IHME numbers that they should *check* them, (as you did!!) before relying on them.


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## cman (May 10, 2020)

Pathways said:


> Not sure your point.  In your earlier post you already compared the data from both sources.  My point was for anyone looking (in general) at the IHME numbers that they should *check* them, (as you did!!) before relying on them.



Now I see where you're coming from. I feel the same way, that's why I checked their numbers.


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## csodjd (May 10, 2020)

cman said:


> Call it tourism, travel or whatever you want. The bottom line is that governors, have the right to exercise their emergency powers to limit either. Never heard of a "right of tourism", but in any event, governors have the right to restrict domestic travel into their states, and I am of the opinion that Governor Ige, acted in the best interest of his constituents.


Absolutely agree, provided there remains an emergency within their jurisdiction. But that's what I mean by their right is not unlimited. There has to be an emergency. My *premise *was that Hawaii is effectively clear of any COVID-19 virus, assuming they have gone several weeks without any new infection. Given the incubation period, one would then believe there is NO COVID causing agent in Hawaii.

In that scenario, what emergency exists? The question then becomes the balance of the fundamental Constitutional right of all US Citizens to travel freely between states versus the risk that someone might bring the infection into the state. And the "strict scrutiny" requirements that the "least restrictive" means be used. I suggest that a broad, 14-day quarantine, is not even close to the "least restrictive" means of addressing the concern of a possibly sick person coming to the island. It is using a sledge hammer on a thumbtack. It fails to take into account the actual risk at all. What if the traveler is coming from a state, or county, which itself has had no cases for 2+ weeks, and he/she was tested yesterday and was negative? Does that matter? Shouldn't it? 

Look to Austria. It is basically open now. Foreign travelers can now fly into Vienna. They are tested for COVID at the airport upon arrival. Test results within 2 hours. If negative, receive an official "passport" type document and free to go. If positive, mandatory 14-day quarantine. Everyone flying in must be tested.


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## csodjd (May 10, 2020)

frank808 said:


> Again everyone is placed under quarantine for 14 days. There is no discrimination between visitors and residents as everyone must endure it. On the 15th day, if you are well you are free to explore and enjoy any public venue you wish. Until those 14 days are up, you are in quarantine of your quarters.


I may be wrong, but I don't believe that is correct. My understanding (Hawaiian residents can chime in) is that residents can go out to get take out food, or go to the market, or perform other essential activities. Tourists cannot leave their room under any circumstances. If that is the case there are important distinctions being made between visitors and residents.


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## csodjd (May 10, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> Hawai‘i Senate COVID-19 Committee Reports Travel Quarantine Will Likely be Extended | Maui Now
> 
> 
> The Hawai‘i State Senate Special Committee on COVID-19 discussed CARES Act aid, the likely extension of the 14-day travel quarantine, and increased costs associated with airport operations amid the ongoing pandemic.
> ...


There seemed little or no doubt that the quarantine would be extended, at least until they have a plan in place and ready to execute for how to handle tourist entry, with some kind of testing either before or after flying seeming to be the obvious option. I can imagine easily a scenario with a testing requirement upon arrival and repeated on day 2. If both are negative, you are out of quarantine. It would be funded by the traveler, who would have the option of not being tested and agreeing to a 14-day quarantine.


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## lynne (May 10, 2020)

csodjd said:


> I may be wrong, but I don't believe that is correct. My understanding (Hawaiian residents can chime in) is that residents can go out to get take out food, or go to the market, or perform other essential activities. Tourists cannot leave their room under any circumstances. If that is the case there are important distinctions being made between visitors and residents.


The 14 day quarantine applies to everyone coming into Hawaii - residents, intended residents, visitors.  The only allowance to leave their place of residence is for a medical condition.  The 14 day quarantine does not apply to essential workers who are either medical or travelling inter-island for a business that has been identified as essential.


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## cman (May 10, 2020)

csodjd said:


> I may be wrong, but I don't believe that is correct. My understanding (Hawaiian residents can chime in) is that residents can go out to get take out food, or go to the market, or perform other essential activities. Tourists cannot leave their room under any circumstances. If that is the case there are important distinctions being made between visitors and residents.



*Here's what the governors order says for traveler to the state. Notice it makes no distinction between resident or non-resident;*
_1. Pursuant to section 127A-13(a)(1), HRS, all persons entering the State of Hawaiʻi shall be subject to mandatory self-quarantine, except those persons performing emergency response or critical infrastructure functions who have been exempted by the Director of Emergency Management. The period of self-quarantine shall begin from the time of entry into the State of Hawaiʻi and shall last 14 days or the duration of the person’s presence in the State of Hawaiʻi, whichever is shorter. This selfquarantine mandate shall take effect on March 26, 2020 at 12:01 am. _

You can read it here; https://governor.hawaii.gov/wp-cont...ementary-Proclamation-for-COVID-19-signed.pdf

*Here's what it says for inter-island travelers. Again, no distinction between resident and non-resident;*
_1. Pursuant to section 127A-13(a)(1), HRS, all persons traveling between any of the islands in the State of Hawai‘i shall be subject to mandatory self-quarantine. The period of self-quarantine shall begin from the date of entry onto the island and shall last 14 days. This self-quarantine mandate shall take effect on April 1, 2020 at 12:01 am. _

You can read this supplement here; https://governor.hawaii.gov/wp-cont...lamation-for-COVID-19-distribution-signed.pdf

The bottom line is that the same rules that apply to you and I, apply to the people of Hawaii.


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## csodjd (May 10, 2020)

cman said:


> *Here's what the governors order says for traveler to the state. Notice it makes no distinction between resident or non-resident;*
> _1. Pursuant to section 127A-13(a)(1), HRS, all persons entering the State of Hawaiʻi shall be subject to mandatory self-quarantine, except those persons performing emergency response or critical infrastructure functions who have been exempted by the Director of Emergency Management. The period of self-quarantine shall begin from the time of entry into the State of Hawaiʻi and shall last 14 days or the duration of the person’s presence in the State of Hawaiʻi, whichever is shorter. This selfquarantine mandate shall take effect on March 26, 2020 at 12:01 am. _
> 
> You can read it here; https://governor.hawaii.gov/wp-cont...ementary-Proclamation-for-COVID-19-signed.pdf
> ...


Fair enough. It doesn't change anything. Again, the premise is that Hawaii was entirely successful in eradicating the virus. At that point, however that's defined or determined, I believe the Constitution may require that a less intrusive order be put in place. The 14-day quarantine cannot last indefinitely. It is not the least intrusive means of achieving the goal.


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## frank808 (May 10, 2020)

csodjd said:


> I may be wrong, but I don't believe that is correct. My understanding (Hawaiian residents can chime in) is that residents can go out to get take out food, or go to the market, or perform other essential activities. Tourists cannot leave their room under any circumstances. If that is the case there are important distinctions being made between visitors and residents.


Nope EVERYONE arriving in the islands are subject to the 14 day quarantine. Unless you are a essential medical worker. Then you are allowed to goto work but have to quarantine any time you are not at work for 14 days of quarantine.

Now there would be a very real legal problem if residents are treated differently than visitors.

Now a resident might have family and friends shop for them. But you are not allowed to leave the domicile you are quarantined at. Or if you have no help there is always instacart, grub hub and all the other delivery services.

I can confirm the quarantine from first hand experience. A good friend is one of the commanders at the airport National Guard contingent checking all passengers deplaning. Everyone has to fill out those forms outlining the restrictions for 14 days.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## ljmiii (May 11, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Absolutely agree, provided there remains an emergency within their jurisdiction. But that's what I mean by their right is not unlimited. There has to be an emergency. My *premise *was that Hawaii is effectively clear of any COVID-19 virus, assuming they have gone several weeks without any new infection. Given the incubation period, one would then believe there is NO COVID causing agent in Hawaii.
> 
> In that scenario, what emergency exists?...


The continued COVID-19 outbreak outside the state of Hawaii. Hawaii's case for quarantine is airtight...the emergency doesn't have to be an *in* the state.

As Chief Justice John Marshall put it in Gibbons v. Ogden (1824) the ability to quarantine is a power “flowing from the acknowledged power of a State to provide for the health of its citizens.” There was ample precedent for his decision as US states and cities had been quarantining for decades. To pick two examples, in 1793 New York and other cities banned travel from Philadelphia when it suffered from an outbreak of Yellow Fever. In 1798, the Governor of Pennsylvania returned the favor when Yellow Fever struck New York.

Later in Compagnie Francaise de Navigation a Vapeur v. Louisiana Board of Health (1902) in the face of yet another outbreak of Yellow Fever, the Supreme Court reaffirmed the right of states to quarantine and upheld Louisiana's order that “in the case of any town, city, or parish of Louisiana being declared in quarantine, no body or bodies of people, immigrants, soldiers, or others shall be allowed to enter said town, city, or parish so long as said quarantine shall exist.”

A more interesting question is whether Hawaii could successfully justify selectively lifting the quarantine for people from states or countries that have successfully eradicated the disease.


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## csodjd (May 11, 2020)

ljmiii said:


> The continued COVID-19 outbreak outside the state of Hawaii. Hawaii's case for quarantine is airtight...the emergency doesn't have to be an *in* the state.
> 
> As Chief Justice John Marshall put it in Gibbons v. Ogden (1824) the ability to quarantine is a power “flowing from the acknowledged power of a State to provide for the health of its citizens.” There was ample precedent for his decision as US states and cities had been quarantining for decades. To pick two examples, in 1793 New York and other cities banned travel from Philadelphia when it suffered from an outbreak of Yellow Fever. In 1798, the Governor of Pennsylvania returned the favor when Yellow Fever struck New York.
> 
> ...


Again, all true, but Constitutionally, they still must use the _least restrictive means_ to achieve the protection of the health of their citizens. A continuing broad, indiscriminate order that makes no attempt to distinguish between those that are a risk from those that are not, and (incorrectly) assumes all people entering Hawaii have equal risk of being and are assumed to be contagious, is not likely to pass the least restrictive means test. It may have been at the point in time where the assumption had some rational basis, but as the facts and technology evolve, that assumption is no longer true. Here is an EASY example. Let's assume a vaccine is FDA approved that prevents you from being infected. Would that all-people-must-quarantine-14-days order make sense even as against someone that is vaccinated? Would that pass Constitutional muster? Clearly not. It would be Constitutionally over broad and fail the least restrictive means test.

If the President of the United States is adequately protected by testing of the people around him, than certainly the citizens of Hawaii would be reasonably protected by a proper/adequate testing protocol, especially inasmuch as you can freely enter Hawaii with any other contagious disease without any restriction or testing at all.


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## frank808 (May 11, 2020)

csodjd said:


> Again, all true, but Constitutionally, they still must use the _least restrictive means_ to achieve the protection of the health of their citizens. A continuing broad, indiscriminate order that makes no attempt to distinguish between those that are a risk from those that are not, and (incorrectly) assumes all people entering Hawaii have equal risk of being and are assumed to be contagious, is not likely to pass the least restrictive means test. It may have been at the point in time where the assumption had some rational basis, but as the facts and technology evolve, that assumption is no longer true. Here is an EASY example. Let's assume a vaccine is FDA approved that prevents you from being infected. Would that all-people-must-quarantine-14-days order make sense even as against someone that is vaccinated? Would that pass Constitutional muster? Clearly not. It would be Constitutionally over broad and fail the least restrictive means test.
> 
> If the President of the United States is adequately protected by testing of the people around him, than certainly the citizens of Hawaii would be reasonably protected by a proper/adequate testing protocol, especially inasmuch as you can freely enter Hawaii with any other contagious disease without any restriction or testing at all.


When that vaccine is APPROVED by FDA I am sure the quarantine will be lifted. Until then, the least restrictive way to keep covid 19 out is by quarantine. 

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


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## csodjd (May 11, 2020)

frank808 said:


> When that vaccine is APPROVED by FDA I am sure the quarantine will be lifted. Until then, the least restrictive way to keep covid 19 out is by quarantine.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


First, that was not my point, so you've simply evaded my point by answering a different question. Second, actually, that is the MOST restrictive way short of a ban on arriving at all. If the President of the US is adequately protected by testing of those around him, why would testing of those coming into the state not provide adequate protection?

I don't think paranoia is a good solution to a problem. Thought, that good old fashioned thing called thinking, is generally a better approach. Your "solution" may mean Hawaii goes without visitors and with a 2-week quarantine, perhaps, forever. Is that your solution? How do you think that will work out for the Hawaiian people? Or would a time come that it is clear there is no vaccine so something you could have done years earlier is implemented?

I don't think waiting for a vaccine is a solution. Nor do I think an indefinite quarantine is a solution. The state MUST find something between those or the residents and the governments will suffer an irreversible and complete economic collapse. I'm not sure Wailea or Waikili or Ko Alina or a bunch of other places will fare well with no tourists for the next few years.


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## frank808 (May 11, 2020)

csodjd said:


> First, that was not my point, so you've simply evaded my point by answering a different question. Second, actually, that is the MOST restrictive way short of a ban on arriving at all. If the President of the US is adequately protected by testing of those around him, why would testing of those coming into the state not provide adequate protection?
> 
> I don't think paranoia is a good solution to a problem. Thought, that good old fashioned thing called thinking, is generally a better approach. Your "solution" may mean Hawaii goes without visitors and with a 2-week quarantine, perhaps, forever. Is that your solution? How do you think that will work out for the Hawaiian people? Or would a time come that it is clear there is no vaccine so something you could have done years earlier is implemented?
> 
> I don't think waiting for a vaccine is a solution. Nor do I think an indefinite quarantine is a solution. The state MUST find something between those or the residents and the governments will suffer an irreversible and complete economic collapse. I'm not sure Wailea or Waikili or Ko Alina or a bunch of other places will fare well with no tourists for the next few years.



First the question I answered was one you asked directly.

Screening people that is around ONE person is a lot easier than screening 30k plus people daily.

Read one of my posts earlier that I have said Hawaii businesses cannot last without a somewhat resumption of visitor arrival and lifting of quarantine.

I do believe that the governor at this time has done a reasonable solution of keeping all of us in Hawaii safe vs prospect of letting covid19 spread through the community.

I did not say quarantine should be used until a vaccine is found. If we lived in a perfect world, it would be pefect to have a vaccine before quarantine procedures were lifted. Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world. 

So this is where we differ on opinion. Your opinion and posts is having a blanket quarantine on everyone arriving is to restrictive. I am saying the quarantine is correct and the easiest way to implement the spread of covid19 from visitors. What do you propose is the correct balance of protecting the residents of Hawaii against a highly contagious virus that currently has no APPROVED vaccine and a mortality rate that is 5-10x greater than the common cold?

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


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## csodjd (May 11, 2020)

frank808 said:


> So this is where we differ on opinion. Your opinion and posts is having a blanket quarantine on everyone arriving is to restrictive. I am saying the quarantine is correct and the easiest way to implement the spread of covid19 from visitors. What do you propose is the correct balance of protecting the residents of Hawaii against a highly contagious virus that currently has no APPROVED vaccine and a mortality rate that is 5-10x greater than the common cold?


You're mischaracterizing my view. I think the blanket quarantine was and still is entirely appropriate and have said so many times. And I have said it should remain in place while they work vigorously at developing plans and putting the tools in place to reopen for tourism. I've also said that they should be ready to do so once Hawaii reaches the point of no new cases for two weeks, meaning the virus has been effectively eradicated from the islands. If the Univ of Washington projections are accurate they should achieve that perhaps by the end of May. If they continue through June without new infections, by July they should be ready to start welcoming some tourism back. 

Perhaps initially only direct flights from California, with all airlines being required to provide testing for infection prior to boarding. Or perhaps, like Austria is doing, it is testing upon arrival, with quarantine for those that test positive and not for those that don't. (That would strongly encourage people to test before they fly over so they know they won't end up in quarantine.) They don't need to test 30,000/day. I'm not saying flip all the lights on. But I am saying they can't keep all the lights off forever. Hawaii cannot, and will not ever, be able to keep the virus 100% off the islands. It's impossible. So they need to do the best they can, and have the testing, tracing and containment ready to go. With testing upon arrival (see Austria), they will have few cases and those will be traced and isolated -- because today we know a lot more about the virus, and there will be little spread because of face coverings and social distancing.

What people forget is that, TODAY, it is no longer an unknown virus, with unknown characteristics, spreading in ways not understood, without testing available. That was March. In May we have tests. We know about asymptomatic spread. We have the ability to test, trace, and contain spread. Those capabilities did not exist in March and into April. Today we are dealing with learning to live WITH the virus, not trying to figure out why it is spreading exponentially or how to stop it. 

Hawaii no longer has a risk of uncontrolled exponential community spread because now they know how to prevent that and they have the tools available to do so. Moreover, even in the worst-case scenario, Feb-March, without any testing, no social distancing, no masks, 30,000/day coming in from all over the world, and before any quarantine, Hawaii did not overwhelm its health care system and had an impressive paucity of cases and deaths. If Hawaii kept deaths of an entirely unknown and uncontrolled virus to 17, imagine what it can do now with all that IS known.


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## vol_90 (May 11, 2020)

Another article on the Hawaii quarantine:









						Trapped in paradise: Breaking quarantine could mean prison time for tourists in Hawaii
					

Hawaii officials have been enforcing some of the strictest measures in the country aimed at stopping the spread of the coronavirus.




					www.cnn.com


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## CalGalTraveler (May 11, 2020)

Hawaii's economy relies on tourism. I am sure that the Governor is receiving pressure from all sides and will open the economy at earliest, safest opportunity.


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## gln60 (May 11, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Hawaii's economy relies on tourism. I am sure that the Governor is receiving pressure from all sides and will open the economy at earliest, safest opportunity.


Hopefully you are correct...in this election year..and the political ramifications..im not so sure


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## CalGalTraveler (May 11, 2020)

gln60 said:


> Hopefully you are correct...in this election year..and the political ramifications..im not so sure



The Governor will be voted out of office if he messes this up. How well the Governor tracks with the Hawaiian state voter attitude toward Covid safety balanced with the economy is all that will matter. If he causes Hawaiian livelihoods to suffer excessively or causes excessive loss of life this will come home to roost.


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## lynne (May 11, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The Governor will be voted out of office if he messes this up. How well the Governor tracks with the Hawaiian state voter attitude toward Covid safety balanced with the economy is all that will matter. If he causes Hawaiian livelihoods to suffer excessively or causes excessive loss of life for political reasons this will come home to roost.


Quite a bit can happen between now and 2022 when he is up for re-election


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## gln60 (May 11, 2020)

lynne said:


> Quite a bit can happen between now and 2022 when he is up for re-election


EXACTLY...the Presidential election is November 3,2020.....way way before the governors re election bid in 2022.....that tells you all you need to know about the situation


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## 1Kflyerguy (May 11, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Hawaii's economy relies on tourism. I am sure that the Governor is receiving pressure from all sides and will open the economy at earliest, safest opportunity.




I agree, i think the tight controls in Hawaii and other places will become hard and harder to justify as the economic impact grows.   Particularly once the local virus situations improve.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 11, 2020)

gln60 said:


> EXACTLY...the Presidential election is November 3,2020.....way way before the governors re election bid in 2022.....that tells you all you need to know about the situation



If you believe Hawaiians and their representatives are in favor of killing their key source of income and livelihoods to sway a national election - that's a far out theory...would you do the same with your income?


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## gln60 (May 11, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> If you believe Hawaiians and their representatives are in favor of killing their key source of income and livelihoods to sway a national election - that's a far out theory...would you do the same with your income?


Hawaiians...absolutely NOT...Politicians who get PAID no matter what.....ABSOLUTELY......you have your opinion.....I have mine


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## slip (May 11, 2020)

Hawaii has a two term limit on the Governor and Ige is in his second term.


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## gln60 (May 11, 2020)

slip said:


> Hawaii has a two term limit on the Governor and Ige is in his second term.


Uhh ohh


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## csodjd (May 11, 2020)

gln60 said:


> Uhh ohh


That's good. It means the Governor will do what he thinks is best/right without regard to the politics and his reelection.


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## gln60 (May 11, 2020)

csodjd said:


> That's good. It means the Governor will do what he thinks is best/right without regard to the politics and his reelection.


Huh??.......Governor now has NOTHING to lose..unfortunate for Hawaii’s hard working citizens


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## csodjd (May 11, 2020)

gln60 said:


> Huh??.......Governor now has NOTHING to lose..unfortunate for Hawaii’s hard working citizens


I have an innate distrust for politicians. Most are focused from day one on doing what they need to do to be re-elected, not what is best for their constituents as a whole.


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## dioxide45 (May 11, 2020)

csodjd said:


> I have an innate distrust for politicians. Most are focused from day one on doing what they need to do to be re-elected, not what is best for their constituents as a whole.


Also realize that often state governors go on to run for US Senate or House of Representatives. So just because their term is up for governor, it doesn't mean their career as a politician is over.


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## cman (May 11, 2020)

gln60 said:


> Huh??.......Governor now has NOTHING to lose..unfortunate for Hawaii’s hard working citizens


He has a lot "to lose". He could lose the lives of thousands of his citizens, in addition to crippling their economic future. I do not envy this man. If he opens too early, he'll pay for it with the lives of his citizens. If he opens to late, he loses the timely economic recovery that Hawaii needs right now. So, he has a lot "to lose". The good news is that, all things considered, Hawaii is making progress. They not only flattened the curve, they strangled it, and then stomped the life out of it. They've been more successful than almost any other state, and most other countries in reducing the spread. Think what you may of the actions taken by the Hawaii government, but every state would love to reproduce their results.


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## vol_90 (May 12, 2020)

cman said:


> He has a lot "to lose". He could lose the lives of thousands of his citizens, in addition to crippling their economic future. I do not envy this man. If he opens too early, he'll pay for it with the lives of his citizens. If he opens to late, he loses the timely economic recovery that Hawaii needs right now. So, he has a lot "to lose". The good news is that, all things considered, Hawaii is making progress. They not only flattened the curve, they strangled it, and then stomped the life out of it. They've been more successful than almost any other state, and most other countries in reducing the spread. Think what you may of the actions taken by the Hawaii government, but every state would love to reproduce their results.


Put a water boarder plus 2,500+ miles between each state and any governor can control visitors to their state if they wish.  Just saying...…….


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## Wei339 (May 12, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> Hawai‘i Senate COVID-19 Committee Reports Travel Quarantine Will Likely be Extended | Maui Now
> 
> 
> The Hawai‘i State Senate Special Committee on COVID-19 discussed CARES Act aid, the likely extension of the 14-day travel quarantine, and increased costs associated with airport operations amid the ongoing pandemic.
> ...


I realize you may not get the opportunity to use your timeshare but I really feel that this failure pales in comparison to the many people who are ill with the virus and the others who are unemployed and trying to just provide food for their families.


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## Wei339 (May 12, 2020)

StevenTing said:


> Hawai‘i Senate COVID-19 Committee Reports Travel Quarantine Will Likely be Extended | Maui Now
> 
> 
> The Hawai‘i State Senate Special Committee on COVID-19 discussed CARES Act aid, the likely extension of the 14-day travel quarantine, and increased costs associated with airport operations amid the ongoing pandemic.
> ...


I realize you may not get the opportunity to use your timeshare but I really feel that this failure pales in comparison to the many people who are ill with the virus and the others who are unemployed and trying to just provide food for their families.


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## tshd (May 12, 2020)

csodjd said:


> If the President of the United States is adequately protected by testing of the people around him, than certainly the citizens of Hawaii would be reasonably protected by a proper/adequate testing protocol, especially inasmuch as you can freely enter Hawaii with any other contagious disease without any restriction or testing at all.



So if the President or VP gets CV will the quarantine then be justified in your eyes?  Three CDC representatives including Fauci put themselves into a 14 day quarantine upon hearing that a WH staffer tested positive, even though they have not tested positive themselves.  The President also questioned the efficacy of testing as a means of prevention noting that Pence's Press Secretary tested negative and the next day didn't.  I don't think most folks believe that testing and tracing are at the level where it will be able to prevent a new spike in infections.  I was upset by the initial reaction that tourists should be banned, especially because most of the cases in Hawaii were traced to residents who had traveled outside of the islands and brought it back.  But I do feel that the residents of Hawaii via their government should have the right to impose a quarantine and it should be the residents of that state who decide when to ease up on restrictions, not people from somewhere else.  If the Feds had been more aggressive about quarantining oversees travelers, we might have had a better outcome like Hawaii.


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## gln60 (May 12, 2020)

tshd said:


> So if the President or VP gets CV will the quarantine then be justified in your eyes?  Three CDC representatives including Fauci put themselves into a 14 day quarantine upon hearing that a WH staffer tested positive, even though they have not tested positive themselves.  The President also questioned the efficacy of testing as a means of prevention noting that Pence's Press Secretary tested negative and the next day didn't.  I don't think most folks believe that testing and tracing are at the level where it will be able to prevent a new spike in infections.  I was upset by the initial reaction that tourists should be banned, especially because most of the cases in Hawaii were traced to residents who had traveled outside of the islands and brought it back.  But I do feel that the residents of Hawaii via their government should have the right to impose a quarantine and it should be the residents of that state who decide when to ease up on restrictions, not people from somewhere else.  If the Feds had been more aggressive about quarantining oversees travelers, we might have had a better outcome like Hawaii.


Well.....unfortunately China,with the help of W.H.O.,decided not to WARN the United States and world for weeks,stopped air travel throughout China,but allowed infected citizens to fly around the world spreading the Chinese Covid 19 virus,thereby not only murdering over 75,000 American citizens so far,and millions more around the world


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## GaryDouglas (May 12, 2020)

That's just one reason why I have for decades done what I can to not buy anything from Tyrannical Communist China.  To save money on near slave labor products that support a govenment that considers the U.S. is their enemy is suicidal.


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## cman (May 12, 2020)

Deleted


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## dioxide45 (May 12, 2020)

GaryDouglas said:


> That's just one reason why I have for decades done what I can to not buy anything from Tyrannical Communist China.  To save money on near slave labor products that support a govenment that considers the U.S. is their enemy is suicidal.


Sadly that isn't really possible. Is the device you are posting from not made in China?


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## dioxide45 (May 12, 2020)

cman said:


> Most other countries "got the memo". They were prepared and took the necessary precautions to mitigate this virus. For whatever reason, we did not. And now we find ourselves as the world's COVID-19 epicenter. It's unfortunate, but this thing has become a political game of finger pointing. When it's all said and done, my hope is that we learn from this, and never again find ourselves in a position where we are unprepared. We have to insist that we have a pandemic response framework in place that we never again botch things like early detection, testing and contact tracing. We have to insist that our response is just as good as South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, Australia, or any other nation on this planet. We messed up on this one, we have to make sure this never happens again.


Does the same apply for Europe; Italy, Spain?


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## cman (May 12, 2020)

dioxide45 said:


> Does the same apply for Europe; Italy, Spain?


Germany is a better example. Italy and Spain made some of the same mistakes we did.

Here's a link to the numbers; https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries


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## GaryDouglas (May 12, 2020)

"I have for decades *done what I can* to not buy anything from Tyrannical Communist China".  It's extremely hard.  I was at Costco yesterday and saw a Kitchen Aid barbeque.  It said it was made in Tyrannical Communist China, didn't buy it.  When I put in recessed lighting a few years ago, I couldn't find one manufacturer that made it in a freedom revering country.  When I go to any store, I first look to see if it's made in the U.S..  Next, not in a despotic country.  If I have no choice, then what a sorry state of affairs that is.  It's extremely hard.  But think if everyone in the U.S. did as I did.  The marketplace speaks the loudest.


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## csodjd (May 13, 2020)

tshd said:


> So if the President or VP gets CV will the quarantine then be justified in your eyes?  Three CDC representatives including Fauci put themselves into a 14 day quarantine upon hearing that a WH staffer tested positive, even though they have not tested positive themselves.  The President also questioned the efficacy of testing as a means of prevention noting that Pence's Press Secretary tested negative and the next day didn't.  I don't think most folks believe that testing and tracing are at the level where it will be able to prevent a new spike in infections.  I was upset by the initial reaction that tourists should be banned, especially because most of the cases in Hawaii were traced to residents who had traveled outside of the islands and brought it back.  But I do feel that the residents of Hawaii via their government should have the right to impose a quarantine and it should be the residents of that state who decide when to ease up on restrictions, not people from somewhere else.  If the Feds had been more aggressive about quarantining oversees travelers, we might have had a better outcome like Hawaii.


That's missing the point. I think the quarantine was and remains justified. The point is that the path to ending quarantines is through testing x 2 (before entry, and anyone becoming symptomatic), tracing and isolation. Testing and tracing may well NOT be at the level necessary, but there's no reason, given the paucity of cases in Hawaii today, for them not to be getting headed to that level.


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## tshd (May 13, 2020)

csodjd said:


> That's missing the point. I think the quarantine was and remains justified. The point is that the path to ending quarantines is through testing x 2 (before entry, and anyone becoming symptomatic), tracing and isolation. Testing and tracing may well NOT be at the level necessary, but there's no reason, given the paucity of cases in Hawaii today, for them not to be getting headed to that level.


I'm pretty sure they are headed that way, but probably not as quickly as you feel they should be.


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## gln60 (May 13, 2020)

there is ONE place and ONE place ONLY to blame this disaster on...and that is Communist China and their Sneak attack on our country and the world...shoulda, coulda,woulda....mistakes were made,no doubt....that can and should be discussed...when the time is right..and now is not the time to play the political blame game As we are seeing daily from the politically motivated media..we need to come together as one country to beat this virus..and deal with the China treachery later..We can do it...we always have


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## SueDonJ (May 13, 2020)

gln60 said:


> there is ONE place and ONE place ONLY to blame this disaster on...and that is Communist China and their Sneak attack on our country and the world...shoulda, coulda,woulda....mistakes were made,no doubt....that can and should be discussed...when the time is right..and now is not the time to play the political blame game As we are seeing daily from the politically motivated media..we need to come together as one country to beat this virus..and deal with the China treachery later..We can do it...we always have



1. There is more than enough blame that reaches far beyond only one country's poor response to what scientific experts saw coming all over the world.

2. The, "now is not the time" ridiculousness is pushed every single time an event that spurs political divide happens in this country, and then it's *conveniently* forgotten until the next time a similar event happens, when again we start spouting like robots, "now is not the time" (repeat ad nauseam.)

3. "The media" is not responsible for my political views and I'll thank you very much to give me the same credit for having a brain as you expect me to give you, despite our obvious political differences. It is utterly stupefying how one can on the one hand insult the intelligence of fellow Americans due to their political leanings while on the other, make the claim that, "we need to come together as one country."

****************************

And THAT's why this thread is being closed, because despite multiple moderators responding to multiple reports in this thread and spending their time editing/deleting crap, it continued until it finally made my head explode.


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