# Resales by Marriott



## remo (Mar 13, 2009)

I've had my Mountainside Platinum 2 bedroom listed for sale with Marriott since Sept, 2008. The deal I have with them is they sell it at the developers price and they get a commission of 40% and I get the balance, or 60%.

 A couple of days ago, I received an email from the resale department saying that they were going to partner with preferred brokers to find buyers for their inventory. When an offer came in, they would send it out to us sellers and we could accept it or counter it. Now today, I get an email from the resale department saying one of their preferred brokers has a buyer willing to pay $25,000. However, the resale department is still charging a 40% commission. 

I don't get it. If I wanted to sell at todays market rate, any broker would charge only 10%. Why would I pay Marriott an extra 30%? Their commission of 40% is barely reasonable if they get the developers price.

Why would anyone do this. What am I missing, if anything?


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## saturn28 (Mar 13, 2009)

At what price was Marriott originally selling this week.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 13, 2009)

I guess it depends on how much you could sell it for if you were to sell it through your own broker. Would it fetch the $25K that Marriott's broker is able to get?


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## Dewnay (Mar 13, 2009)

remo said:


> Now today, I get an email from the resale department saying one of their preferred brokers has a buyer willing to pay $25,000. However, the resale department is still charging a 40% commission.



Will the buyer have the ability to trade their week for Marriott Rewards points if purchasing through the preferred broker instead of directly from Marriott Resales?


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## KathyPet (Mar 14, 2009)

When you originally listed it for sale with Marriott in 2008 what was the price Marriott was listing it for????  I am trying to figure ot how much less than the original price Marriott was asking for it your offer is for?


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## KathyPet (Mar 14, 2009)

According to the resale database the last reported sale there was in 6/08 for a 2 BR Gold week that went for $2768.00    In today's market selling through a broker that cannot offer the option to trade for Marriott points as part of the deal how much do you think you can get for it????


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## iamnotshopgirl (Mar 14, 2009)

$25000 minus 40% is $15000 you could have sold the unit on Ebay, Tug, Redweek and got that price and paid no commission. Marriott has had that unit for 7 months and in all likelyhood you could have sold it in less than 30 days on Ebay at that price. But Marriott will put the sale through at the $25000 figure (not minus their commission) to keep the price inflated. Has me wondering though if you bought that same villa at $15000 would it have passed ROFR?

bob


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## kathleenpeyer (Mar 14, 2009)

*Marriott Brokers*

email me at iels2001@yahoo.com re: my experience reselling through Marriott affiliated brokers. Too many details to list here.

KP


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## FlyerBobcat (Mar 14, 2009)

kathleenpeyer said:


> email me at iels2001@yahoo.com re: my experience reselling through Marriott affiliated brokers. *Too many details to list here.*
> KP



Can you at least summarize for the rest of us????


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## KathyPet (Mar 14, 2009)

I don't know what information people are using to say that you can get the same $15,000 net by selling through another broker.  There is one 2 BR Platinum week at Mountainside on TUG right now and it is through a broker.  Asking price is $10,500 and that is asking price not selling price and the broker will take a commission from that which will bring the net selling price down to quite a bit less than $10,500.00.  I think those that are saying you can get a NET of $15,000 from listing it yourself are dreaming.


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## Simplify (Mar 14, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> I don't know what information people are using to say that you can get the same $15,000 net by selling through another broker.  There is one 2 BR Platinum week at Mountainside on TUG right now and it is through a broker.  Asking price is $10,500 and that is asking price not selling price and the broker will take a commission from that which will bring the net selling price down to quite a bit less than $10,500.00.  I think those that are saying you can get a NET of $15,000 from listing it yourself are dreaming.



I checked this ad. I think it's likely wrong regarding the stated season. The weeks listed are for the gold season at Mountainside.


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## remo (Mar 14, 2009)

When i signed the resale agreement with marriott, the listed developers price was $52,900. I would get 60% of that , or $31,740. I just checked 3 different web sites selling Mountainside and a 2 bedroom Platinum is asking $25,000 and up. Most seem to be a couple of thousand dollars plus or minus from $30,000. That is why I am questioning Marriotts new program with preferred brokers. It seems they are bringing me a market rate deal, but want a 40% commission!!


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## KathyPet (Mar 14, 2009)

Wow, that is a huge price difference between what Marriott listed it for an the offer you got.  Are you sure there is still a 40% commission involved and can these brokers offer the ability to trade for points as part of the deal?


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## saturn28 (Mar 14, 2009)

remo said:


> When i signed the resale agreement with marriott, the listed developers price was $52,900. I would get 60% of that , or $31,740. I just checked 3 different web sites selling Mountainside and a 2 bedroom Platinum is asking $25,000 and up. Most seem to be a couple of thousand dollars plus or minus from $30,000. That is why I am questioning Marriotts new program with preferred brokers. It seems they are bringing me a market rate deal, but want a 40% commission!!




Man they are offering you Chump Change, but they make sure they get their 40% cut. I would reject that offer and tell Marriott you want to tear up that contract. This must be some new thing Marriott has come up with because I never heard of it before.

Did you buy your week from Marriott, or did you purchase it resale outside of Marriott.


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## m61376 (Mar 14, 2009)

KathyPet said:


> Wow, that is a huge price difference between what Marriott listed it for an the offer you got.  Are you sure there is still a 40% commission involved and can these brokers offer the ability to trade for points as part of the deal?



Interesting question- although I would be shocked if they treated it as a developer week. Sounds like they are acting as a referral source and charging 40% for that. I guess if they can't actively be engaged in the resale market now via exercising ROFR due to the credit crunch that they are looking to still get a piece of the pie, but without any monetary outlay.

I would expect Marriott's Platinum ski weeks to sell in the 20's resale. The issue of the ad on tug which sounds like it is a Gold week just mislabeled just underlines that even though an ad is on Tug and even though it is listed by a broker, buyers still have to be just as vigilant and do their due diligence to check the accuracy of the listing.


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## Carlsbadguy (Mar 14, 2009)

A couple monts ago a ski week at Summit Watch sold on e-bay for around $18,000 I think.


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## hipslo (Mar 15, 2009)

i am at mountainside now.  when we checked in yesterday the welcome packet incuded a list of "marriott resale inventory".  all units were specified as coming with "full marriott benefits including particpation in marriott rewards program".  There were numerous listings for the various seasons but i only focused on the platinum units.  there was one listed for 36.9, and two listed for around 44k.  the two at 44k were somewhat less than I remember platinum units selling for (or at least being listed for) last year - then I think it may have been just over 50.  The one unit at 36.9 surprised me.  Thats not all that much more than resale pricing from a year or so ago (which was right around 30, given or take, although now I think low to mid 20's is around where the resale market seems to be).  What I dont understand is how it is that units that are deemed "marriott" units can be offered at such different price points, that's definitely something new.


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## hipslo (Mar 15, 2009)

remo said:


> I've had my Mountainside Platinum 2 bedroom listed for sale with Marriott since Sept, 2008. The deal I have with them is they sell it at the developers price and they get a commission of 40% and I get the balance, or 60%.
> 
> A couple of days ago, I received an email from the resale department saying that they were going to partner with preferred brokers to find buyers for their inventory. When an offer came in, they would send it out to us sellers and we could accept it or counter it. Now today, I get an email from the resale department saying one of their preferred brokers has a buyer willing to pay $25,000. However, the resale department is still charging a 40% commission.
> 
> ...



If the buyer gets to treat this as a developer week at that price, and marriott is willing to go along with that, this strikes me as the beginning of the end (whatever that means), and marriott must be getting desperate for cash flow.  Seems like a very ominous sign to me.


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## m61376 (Mar 15, 2009)

Hipslo- Are they also trying to sell developer units there? Is the resort sold out and have they discontinued Marriott previews at Mountainside? Otherwise, this whole scenario is rather confusing because they are, in effect, creating their own competition. If they were marketing resale units all at the same price point I could understand it, since it would be equivalent to running a "sale" but saving a bit of face perhaps, but to be advertising them at different prices with the ability to trade for points- as a developer week, but less than developer's own inventory (unless they are no longer marketing themselves there) is very surprising.

If they are finished with any developer marketing there, then this may be a "if you can't fight 'em you might as well join them" mentality to get involved in the active resale market without any cash outlay. 

I think whether or not they are doing this at resorts while still actively selling developer units would be a huge indication of the current state of affairs.


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## saturn28 (Mar 15, 2009)

What it looks like is Marriott has come to the realization that they have to lower their prices to reflect present market conditions. There is no way they can continue to sell timeshare weeks at or above the price they were selling them at before the real estate melt down. If they don't adjust their prices down their sales will continue to fall.


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## hipslo (Mar 15, 2009)

m61376 said:


> Hipslo- Are they also trying to sell developer units there? Is the resort sold out and have they discontinued Marriott previews at Mountainside? Otherwise, this whole scenario is rather confusing because they are, in effect, creating their own competition. If they were marketing resale units all at the same price point I could understand it, since it would be equivalent to running a "sale" but saving a bit of face perhaps, but to be advertising them at different prices with the ability to trade for points- as a developer week, but less than developer's own inventory (unless they are no longer marketing themselves there) is very surprising.
> 
> If they are finished with any developer marketing there, then this may be a "if you can't fight 'em you might as well join them" mentality to get involved in the active resale market without any cash outlay.
> 
> I think whether or not they are doing this at resorts while still actively selling developer units would be a huge indication of the current state of affairs.



they have been sold out (at least as to platinum ski weeks) for several years - at least 3 years, perhaps more


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## m61376 (Mar 15, 2009)

Are they no longer engaged in any active sales there? I know at some resorts where one or more seasons have been sold out they are still actively selling remaining seasons and Marriott acquired resales directly. 

Very interesting twist of events, esp. if they are doing preview tours and engaged in sales.


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## Beverley (Mar 15, 2009)

remo said:


> When i signed the resale agreement with marriott, the listed developers price was $52,900. I would get 60% of that , or $31,740. I just checked 3 different web sites selling Mountainside and a 2 bedroom Platinum is asking $25,000 and up. Most seem to be a couple of thousand dollars plus or minus from $30,000. That is why I am questioning Marriotts new program with preferred brokers. It seems they are bringing me a market rate deal, but want a 40% commission!!



Did you sign any agreement that would allow Marriott to sell your week below their stated value of the week (52K)?  We have a week for sale with Marriott.  It is a silver week with a Marriott value of approx 15K.  They asked us to sign an amendment to our original agreement to allow them to put our week "on sale" and gave us a bottom price for this price reduction.  We signed.  

We also asked what happens if we do not sign.  The answer was that it would depend on the buyer.   If the buyer was interested in buying 2 weeks and getting the sale price, Marriott would go in order down the list to obtain the first two units that had signed the agreement to allow a price reduction.  So, in other words, if we held to the price, they would buy pass us on the list in the interest of making the sale.  

In the absence of a prearranged price reduction, I would expect that you could decline the offer and not jeopardize your "place on their list", however, if they have a buyer via this broker that will pay 25K, the next seller on the list might take the offer.  I guess it boils down to "how motivated a seller are you?"  If you want to sell but can wait out another offer ... you may decided to pass this one.  If you are needing to sell your week, you might cut your losses and sell.  

I have to say though that getting only 15K for a ski week is something you should be able to do on your own.

Good luck.

Beverley


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## Carlsbadguy (Mar 15, 2009)

When I was in PArk City a few weeks ago I noticed their sales office in the SUmmit Watch Plaza was closed and I don't think they still had their sales office on Main Street.  There was a small office in the Plaza at he baase of PArk City resort.


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## tombo (Mar 15, 2009)

This platinum week is for sale on redweek for $25000 ( R403072). If the buyer your broker found doesn't buy yours he could buy this one for $25,000 asking price or possibly even less if he negotiates. Doesn't sound like a bad price to me since one sold for about $15,000 on e-bay recently.


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## KathyPet (Mar 15, 2009)

I wonder if they are doing this will all their resale units or just the very expensive ones that are not moving at Marriott's "list" price.  Makes me glad that they sold my gold Barony Beach week for me last summer.


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## bogey21 (Mar 15, 2009)

remo said:


> That is why I am questioning Marriotts new program with preferred brokers. It seems they are bringing me a market rate deal, but want a 40% commission!!



Typical Marriott.  Change the program to benefit their bottom line.  Screw the loyal owner.  I sold my 4 Marriott Weeks years ago when it became obvious Marriott would not live up to their promised rental and sales programs.

George


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## thinze3 (Mar 15, 2009)

I think people are making more out of this than necessary. Marriott WILL sell a unit at full price to anyone who wants to buy from them. If you called Marriott and said, "I want to buy one of these." Marriott would find one for you and the person who's unit is being sold would get 60% of retail.

At this time they have a valuable list of people willing to sale and that all. There is no market at retail price, so they are wanting to get a cut of the resale pie. They never talk to a buyer or do any marketing so they have no outlay. But yes, I do agree they are creating price points that could work against them in the future.

OP - I would simply counter with an offer that is acceptable to you or else wait a long time.


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## saturn28 (Mar 15, 2009)

thinze3 said:


> I think people are making more out of this than necessary. Marriott WILL sell a unit at full price to anyone who wants to buy from them. If you called Marriott and said, "I want to buy one of these." Marriott would find one for you and the person who's unit is being sold would get 60% of retail.
> 
> At this time they have a valuable list of people willing to sale and that all. There is no market at retail price, so they are wanting to get a cut of the resale pie. They never talk to a buyer or do any marketing so they have no outlay. But yes, I do agree they are creating price points that could work against them in the future.
> 
> OP - I would simply counter with an offer that is acceptable to you or else wait a long time.



What I want to know is do the purchasers of these reduced price resale weeks get Marriott Reward Points with their purchase. The same way they would if they bought at the original developers price. 

If they do, it is going to lower price of the non Marriott resale weeks that don't have Marriott reward points. For example if you can now buy a Grande Vista annual Platinum week from Marriott for $12000, which comes with 100,000 Marriott Reward points, the resale weeks bought outside Marriott may go for $6000.


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## thinze3 (Mar 15, 2009)

No possible way! Again Marriott has nothing to do with it. These are just brokers who are looking for scarce units asking Marriott for leads. And, of course Marriottt wants a cut.


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## saturn28 (Mar 15, 2009)

thinze3 said:


> No possible way! Again Marriott has nothing to do with it. These are just brokers who are looking for scarce units asking Marriott for leads. And, of course Marriottt wants a cut.




Are you stating this as fact, or is this just your opinion.


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## m61376 (Mar 16, 2009)

Terry-
While my first inclination was the same as yours, this is what has me wondering:


hipslo said:


> i am at mountainside now.  when we checked in yesterday the welcome packet incuded a list of "marriott resale inventory".  all units were specified as coming with "full marriott benefits including particpation in marriott rewards program".



If that is truly the case and "participation" means the ability to trade for points (and not just "participation" in the sense that anybody- owner or not- can sign up and participate int he rewards program and/or get a Marriott Visa, etc.) that signals something very different.

And, moreover, I think Marriott getting involved does make a difference. Are they still selling any weeks there? If they are, they would seem to be undermining themselves and, even if they are not, what message does it send outside of Mountainside? I would like to get more info. on this and find it a bit alarming.

Heretofore they have not lowered prices even in this economy but have run "specials" (which, of course, was price cutting but with saving face, so to speak). This would be a very different path and I don't know if they could ever go back -if they are truly implementing this-to business as usual once the economy recovers.

*Dave hasn't commented on this thread- I'd love to hear his insights, since they are usually fraught with information rather than speculation.*


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## iamnotshopgirl (Mar 16, 2009)

Marriott has changed the points program (devalued), rewards program (more pts needed/reward stays), rental program (certains weeks qualify) and to some it may come as a surprise that they may now change the resale program? You got to be kidding! :hysterical: Marriott is going to do whatever is good to their bottom line with little regard to concerns of the timeshare owner. Why? Because they already have your money! Others have stated on threads with similar discussions that Marriott owes us nothing except the timeshare product and they are absolutley right! So if you are not satisfied with the Marriott brand you always have the option to sell. Where and how you sell is still your choice. IMHO!

bob


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## remo (Mar 16, 2009)

When I received the offer from Marriott for my Mountainside and saw the commission, I emailed them and said this doesn't make sense to me. The following is Marriott Resale's response: " Thank you for your communication. As we role out the changes to our
resale program, we find all owner feedback to be of great value. 

While I understand and appreciate your concerns, the steps Marriott has
taken to improve our resale program should be viewed in the appropriate
context. 

When Mountainside sold out of developer properties in October 2008, the
on-site sales gallery closed. Our central sales distribution group has
continued to sell properties, but not at the pace that the parties
involved have come to expect. 

In this economy where there are more sellers and fewer buyers, we felt
it was our obligation as the resale office to find additional solutions.
By supplementing our current resale program with the new partnership
with our network of preferred brokers, we are simply increasing the
resale opportunities available to our owners. 

While you do have the ability to explore your options with external
timeshare brokers, you may find that many of the legitimate brokers also
have sizeable commission rates. 

In addition, it should be noted that only our network of preferred
brokers will be permitted under certain conditions to sell Marriott
properties complete with full Marriott Rewards(r) program benefits
available to the purchaser."

I my opinion, no reputable broker charges 40%. Also, Marriott just devalued all our units by a tremendous amount.


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## thinze3 (Mar 16, 2009)

Thanks for that post. Istand corrected. 

So if someone were to buy your unit for $25K they would have full Rewards points availability and use. WOW! There goes the neighborhood.

For those sellers not willing to pay Marriott's 40% commission - your resale value just went way down, as buyeres would rather buy through a "preferred" partner and get the points and the discounted resale price.

_Added:
Something doesn't smell right here. This would make it very difficult for Marriott to sell NEW units when you can get the same thing down the road at a huge discount, points and all. Imagine buying Ocean Pointe at 50% of retail with all the perks while trying to sell Oceana Palms right next door.  

Added again:
*Notice the words "under certain conditions" ? Maybe you still have to pay full retail to get the perks.* _

.


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## saturn28 (Mar 16, 2009)

remo said:


> When I received the offer from Marriott for my Mountainside and saw the commission, I emailed them and said this doesn't make sense to me. The following is Marriott Resale's response: " Thank you for your communication. As we role out the changes to our
> resale program, we find all owner feedback to be of great value.
> 
> While I understand and appreciate your concerns, the steps Marriott has
> ...



There it is. This is a huge change in Marriott's approach. They have decided the only way to increase their revenue is to get a piece of the huge resale market by offering Marriott Reward Points to buyers that purchase from their brokers. 

Seems to me this has to be followed by a lowering of the developer weeks prices as well.


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## bogey21 (Mar 16, 2009)

iamnotshopgirl said:


> Others have stated on threads with similar discussions that Marriott owes us nothing except the timeshare product and they are absolutley right!



Legally, I am sure you are correct.  Morally, I disagree.  A major part of their sales pitch (at least when I bought 20 years ago) was selling us on the value of the Points, the Rental Program, and the Resale Program as they were then constituted.  Naturally, they neglected to tell us that the programs could be changed at their whim.

I sold all 4 of my Marriott Weeks years ago when I saw the writing on the wall and broke about even overall.  Nonetheless, I have boycotted Marriott hotels, motels, etc. ever since.

George


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## wuv pooh (Mar 16, 2009)

saturn28 said:


> There it is. This is a huge change in Marriott's approach. They have decided the only way to increase their revenue is to get a piece of the huge resale market by offering Marriott Reward Points to buyers that purchase from their brokers.
> 
> Seems to me this has to be followed by a lowering of the developer weeks prices as well.



This is not a huge change.  You have always been able to purchase a resale from Marriott and receive the points option.  Resorts in Hilton Head are a prime example.  Brokers have also been allowed to sell Marriott weeks with point options, but there is a significant fee required to have this option.  In the past there was only one broker who I knew that offered this.  Marriott may be offering some incentives to get more brokers into the program.


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## m61376 (Mar 16, 2009)

wuv pooh said:


> This is not a huge change.  You have always been able to purchase a resale from Marriott and receive the points option.  Resorts in Hilton Head are a prime example.  Brokers have also been allowed to sell Marriott weeks with point options, but there is a significant fee required to have this option.  In the past there was only one broker who I knew that offered this.  Marriott may be offering some incentives to get more brokers into the program.



The difference is was that in the past if you bought a resale through Marriott you paid the going developer's price at the time. What appears to be the case here is that evidently Mountainside was sold out the end of last year and the sales office closed, so there is no longer any original developer inventory. Now their sales there are exclusively resales. And now they are keeping up with the market wrt pricing rather than having a fixed, non-negotiable price point as before. The question here is what "under certain conditions" means. IF you still have to pay developer price to receive the developer perks, then the only thing that has changed here is that Marriott is trying to get a piece of the resale pie, realizing that many resale buyers aren't concerned about the ability to trade for points.

And, Bob- you are right- Marriott is free to change the program. But their changes could have huge ramifications. IF they are being negotiable in their resales (which they weren't before) and still transferring developer purchaser's rights to any resale through one of their preferred brokers regardless of purchase price, then effectively Marriott will monopolize the resale market, because why should anyone buy from a non-preferred broker? If the buyer can pay the same price and get full privileges, why buy privately or through a non-preferred broker? Effectively, Marriott would be commandeering a 40% cut of the resale market at market driven prices.

While it may appear to make sense for Marirott at sold at resorts, I think they would be entering a very slippery slope if, in fact, they offer full benefits at lower price points. Not only does if affect future resale prices at all resorts but it trickles down to actively selling properties as well, because every buyer contemplates owning for several years at least and expects that by the time he/she wants to sell the resort will be sold out. In my opinion, at least, it bursts the appearance of non-negotiability that Marriott has always presented and which I think has been an earmark of its sales approach.

The biggest question for me, at least, is what conditions are necessary to be entitled to full Marriott perks? If it is a set price, then I don't think things have really changed that much (there may be a price range, which would still be in keeping with the current "developer specials" which Marriott has instituted at several resorts; such specials are a way of promoting sales in keeping with the economy while not lowering prices overall, still maintaining their stance of non-negotiability). If it is any price point that a Marriott preferred broker negotiates that is entirely different.


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## iamnotshopgirl (Mar 16, 2009)

George

I do not disagree with you. In fact I agree with you! But we are in the minority. How many inning are there in a baseball game? Supose you begin the game and around the 4th inning with the score tied at 3-3 the ref comes up to you and says the game will end at the bottom of the 5th. No reason for it...he just decides that it's over in 5 because he has to go to a party. He has changed the context of the game and it's outcomes. Exactly what Marriott does. They reel you in with their sales pitch promising you rental, sales, points or whatever the program is. As time goes on and upon changing conditions (economic) they change the program to suit Marriott needs and this includes there shareholders. Plain and simple Marriott exists to make a profit. Once Marriott has your money you the timeshare holder become a fleeting thought. They begin their PR crap that they "value owner feedback". OK so with all the negative feedback owners have given them back once they have made changes to their programs what changes as a result of that feedback have they made to any program? None that I am aware of. Hold on folks Bob is on a roll here so if I'm going to upset some people so be it. I classify Marriott owners into three sets the ones that love them, those that hate them and those of us caught in the middle which I believe to be the majority. I'm going to speak to the majority. When Marriott changed the point system and devalued their points did you receive more or less for your villas? How is it that Marriott raised their rack rates but we the T/s owner saw no increase on our end? Why did they create a new catagory for packages and increase the points needed in the other level of catagorys for packages. Marriott changed the rental program you really think that benefits the T/s owner. Give me a break it benefits Marriott. 90,000 points does't even cover the MF's on the unit. I have asked this question many times to Marriott representatives concerning which weeks made the rental program for the Aruba Surf Club gold season. Of course they are not going to tell you so I narrowed the question. How many weeks made the cut (not naming them) for a 28 week period? One or two? if any? You will never know because they will not devulge the information. Changes to the resale program, internal exchange program yup there coming folks. Just stand by Marriott they are going to do the right thing for you just send them your feedback. Don't hold your breath and don't bend over. Some of you are probably saying there is a simple solution to this because Bob you have gone over the edge and that solution is to sell. So right! Exactly what I am about to do but it won't be through the Marriott resale unit.

bob


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## iamnotshopgirl (Mar 16, 2009)

"And, Bob- you are right- Marriott is free to change the program. But their changes could have huge ramifications. IF they are being negotiable in their resales (which they weren't before) and still transferring developer purchaser's rights to any resale through one of their preferred brokers regardless of purchase price, then effectively Marriott will monopolize the resale market, because why should anyone buy from a non-preferred broker? If the buyer can pay the same price and get full privileges, why buy privately or through a non-preferred broker? Effectively, Marriott would be commandeering a 40% cut of the resale market at market driven prices."


m61376

This is exactly the way I am reading it. A Monopoly! Why would any potential buyer buy on the resale market when at the same price they can buy from Marriott (broker) and get all the bennies that came with the original purchase. Just send them the feedback and they will change the program:rofl:  Fact... if they can monoplize the resale market they increase the profitability of their bottom line.

bob


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## thinze3 (Mar 16, 2009)

My bet is that those qualified words in that email make all the difference, and that resale buyers who don't pay the premium retail price do not get the points privileges. I have emailed my sales rep in hopes of an answer.


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## m61376 (Mar 16, 2009)

Bob-
The only thing is I am not so sure they will be increasing the bottom line. True, they will make more money on resales- but that is only a very small segment of the overall timeshare market. I think the bigger picture here is that Marriott has always maintained a non-negotiable stance. Even in the current climate, they maintained their developer pricing, couching discounts as special incentives or promotions with a limited time frame. That way, when things rebound, they can return to the "we never negotiate on price" tactic that has worked so well for them before.

If they are truly entering the resale market on a market driven pricing (they were always a part of it, but full Marriott resales- the ones with Marriott perks- were always developer fixed pricing) the landscape has changed and it will impact all sales. Most people who buy envision years of happy use and that their units will increase in price over the years (at least in Marriott's price), and Marriott has touted their ability to resell units at those escalated prices. So, people rationalize that, if they buy today and sell down the road, after paying Marriott's hefty commission they will still not lose much or even perhaps make a few dollars, because prices will have escalated, esp. if buyers purchased pre-construction at the outset. There are many Tuggers here who have reported doing just that. If Marriott resale prices are no longer fixed, then potential resale value is diminished (I am talking about resale value wrt the sales pitch or enjoyed by people who made it to the top of the Marriott resale list previously, not about fair market value resales), and that would necessarily impact original sales as well. If Marriott bursts the bubble of non-negotiability and set prices their sales landscape will forever be altered. And that is not good for their bottom line.

The only way I can see this helping Marriott is if they are entering the resale market to recoup some of the profits but still distinguishing Marriott preferred broker resales from direct purchases (whether original or developer resales), with buyers having to pay full developer price (or developer price reflecting any limited time promotions in effect at the time) in order to get the full developer benefits (ie- the questionable benefit of trading for points). If they are, in fact, maintaining that distinction it is a win-win for Marriott, imho. They get to reap profits without laying out cash for ROFR and then waiting for a sale, and buyers still have to chose between the full package and a resale unit. It will, of course, impact owners, because why would a buyer who is fine with a resale unit (ie- not being able to trade for points) buy on the outside from a stranger, which always has some risks and is subject to pitfalls, rather than buying from Marriott, a known entity, if there was no cost savings? But, of course, that's not Marriott's concern and will funnel more customers to their resale market.

But, after touting the ability to trade for points as only being a developer benefit for so long, and only available to full price purchasers,  I think changing that would be akin to shooting themselves in the foot.


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## thinze3 (Mar 16, 2009)

Unless Marriott is out of the New Construction business for many years to come. They may be totally refocusing for all we know.


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## Powerguy (Mar 16, 2009)

thinze3 said:


> Unless Marriott is out of the New Construction business for many years to come. They may be totally refocusing for all we know.



What is Marriott building new now in addition to Frenchman's Cove? 

Someone here heard that at Frenchman's Cove they are delaying the last two buildings in the project.


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## thinze3 (Mar 16, 2009)

I think someone recently reported that they are moving forward with the next phase at Las Vegas. Other than the exsiting projects wrapping up, like Oceana Palms, Crystal Shores, Enclaves, St Kitts, & Lakeshore Reserve, I think most have projects been shelved. I probably missed a resort or two in their finishing stages.


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## KathyPet (Mar 16, 2009)

Oceana Plams, Crystal Shores and they have purchased property in Cancun and made a announcement that will be the next location


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## m61376 (Mar 16, 2009)

And they definitely still have plans to begin sales in Cancun during the last quarter of '09, so they aren't going to be out of the new construction business and I'd venture to guess that any current decisions would be made with future sales and marketing in mind.


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## ondeadlin (Mar 16, 2009)

If you can now buy Mountainside ski season from an approved resale broker at the price quoted, and receive the right to trade for points with that purchase, Marriott is basically giving the finger to everyone who purchased developer.

It would IMO be a very unwise thing to do from a customer relations and repeat customer perspective.


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## RMAC (Mar 17, 2009)

*First Timer*

Hi there,

I have read through this thread and feel that many of the points here are valid.  In regards to mountain side and the resale of its units at resale prices with full marriott benefits I have a couple questions:

First of all, so that I am fully aware of the original owner benefits here is what I was told by my sales rep at Newport:

-You will have the option to trade in the week for marriott points. (this I am fully aware is the case)
-I was told that Original owners have a higher trade status then resale owners (can anyone confirm this)
-With resale purchases (from a non-marriott broker) it takes up to 6 months to be recognized by marriott and II.
-There are purchase incentives when buying from marriott (in my case it is a 2br week)
-Once sold out Marriott will help you resale at current developer rates (of course once they are sold out what determines that rate?)


With that said I am actually speaking with the (Marriott approved) rep at mountainside and summitt (he does both) about a EOY plantium week that will come with full Marriott bennies.  He said the seller may be willing to negotiate.  

I would like to know more about the benefits of original ownership other then the point trade system before tomorrow so i can better make a decision about what to do. 

I will also be able to ask him any of your questions if you so desire.  Just let me know.

I am very new at this game but feel TS is perfect for me and my young family as we will be very flexible with our time for the next 5 or 6 years.

RMAC


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## FlyerBobcat (Mar 17, 2009)

RMAC said:


> Hi there,
> I have read through this thread and feel that many of the points here are valid.  In regards to mountain side and the resale of its units at resale prices with full marriott benefits I have a couple questions:
> 
> First of all, so that I am fully aware of the original owner benefits here is what I was told by my sales rep at Newport:
> ...


My understanding that this is usually allowed every-other-year for developer purchase.  You need to figure (based on the points you would get -- and what those points would be able to fetch) if exercising this option is worth it.  Remember that you are paying the MFs in order to get those points, and points can be purchased from Marriott if needed.



> -I was told that Original owners have a higher trade status then resale owners (can anyone confirm this)


Not true....



> -With resale purchases (from a non-marriott broker) it takes up to 6 months to be recognized by marriott and II.


While it probably is true that Marriott can move it faster, I just completed my Marriott purchase (recognized by Marriott) in about 3 months.  It depends on a number of factors including if the seller is up-to-date on fees, closing co., title issues, etc.



> -There are purchase incentives when buying from marriott (in my case it is a 2br week)


Yes...  This is usually the factor that will determine if the higher purchase price is worth it (when compared to a straight resales purchase)



> -Once sold out Marriott will help you resale at current developer rates (of course once they are sold out what determines that rate?)


That one has been debated/discussed in this forum.  It seems as if this might be true in some cases.  But people here have stated that Marriott has sold their resales-purchased Marriott unit.  Things are changing lately, so I don't know if this should be a big consideration.  Note that currently you would get 60% of the selling price (40% commision to Marriott!)


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## Powerguy (Mar 17, 2009)

RMAC-

I bought a resale last year - Frenchman's Cove Platinum week

- Trade status is no different developer purchased or resale

- I closed on a resale the middle of March and received the letter from Marriott dated April 7th that my transfer had been completed and my new owners number. I did use the same attorney that marriott uses for their developer sales which may have facilitated things moving a little faster.

- The purchase incentives are marriott points - how much is 125,000 marriott points worth? In my case not the differrence between resale and developer pricing.


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## m61376 (Mar 17, 2009)

RMAC- The above posts accurately answer your questions, although Powerguy's experience with the speed of transfer was a bit faster than most and some transfers have lingered. I'd say 2-3 months is average. Different people in Owner Modifications handle different resorts/areas, so he likely lucked out with his file falling on someone's desk who was less busy.

That said, other than the ability to trade for points a resale week purchased through Marriott (or an original developer's week) has no difference in usage except for the ability to trade for points. Marriott has sold resale purchased weeks for owners in the past; as pointed out, that may or may not be the case at the moment. In the past all resale weeks were sold by Marriott for full developer prices and the seller received 60% (with Marriott retaining a 40% commission).

It appears that Marriott is offering to negotiate with the seller now on resale weeks. Our question here is how low will Marriott allow a resale week to sell for and still attach full Marriott direct purchased benefits. Is it only for full priced or near full priced developer purchases (Marriott has been maintaining its price structure but has recently run a few promotional sales), or would full benefits attach at any price that Marriott is able to negotiate with the seller on your behalf? If the seller was anxious and is willing to sell the Mountainside unit for 25K, for example, will Marriott still give you full benefits? Another very interesting question would be at resorts still in active sales, but where developer inventory for a certain season or view may be sold out, are they negotiating price on resales and offering developer benefits?


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## RMAC (Mar 17, 2009)

Quote:
-I was told that Original owners have a higher trade status then resale owners (can anyone confirm this)
Not true....


I am very disappointed in our sales rep now.  Original owner trade priority over a resale trade was the (selling point) that made us want to be sure and buy through Marriott.  The trade for Marriott points is somewhat appealing but as most have pointed out if you want Marriott points you can buy them at basically the same rate of you MF.  


So here is our main concern for the day.  Our right of recision is up tonight at midnight on the purchase of a gold week EOY at canyon villas in Phoenix.

From your professional opinions: is a lock off studio unit of a floating gold week (we will try and lock off the best of the gold season, though who wants to be in Phoenix anytime in the summer) going to be good enough to get us two bedroom in Hawaii off season?  (at least less off season as hawaii gets)

We are debating about gold vs platinum, is Marriott lock off gold (studio or 1 bdrm) going to get us enough clout in Hawaii to get a two bedroom?

thanks for your advice


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## saturn28 (Mar 17, 2009)

RMAC said:


> Quote:
> -I was told that Original owners have a higher trade status then resale owners (can anyone confirm this)
> Not true....
> 
> ...




You have been suckered by the Marriott salesperson. Why not save thousands of dollars and buy resale. With the money you save, you can by a platinum resale unit and still have money left. Then use some of the money you save to purchase some Marriott Reward points. In my opinion, this is a no brainer.

If I was you, I would phone Marriott today and cancel the contract.


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## m61376 (Mar 17, 2009)

Everything else aside, the fact that you are debating whether or not to rescind means that you should absolutely rescind- NOW! There is no such thing as having until midnight- you must either mail a certified letter, which must be postmarked by the close of the post office today, or if you are still on-site you can bring it to the sales office while they are open- but make sure to get a receipt for the rescission.

If you decide that this was the right move, you can always make the purchase next week, next month...prices are not going up anytime soon.

There are a few things you should be considering- where you'd really like to visit most often and what your needs are. You mention that you have a young family; it is a wonderful time to get into timesharing. I only wish I knew about this when my kids were young. But keep in mind that needs change- which is why I personally like the floating week system. While today you are very flexible with dates, a few years down the road likely you will need more prime weeks- school vacations. Keep that in mind.

Buying with the intention of upgrading is a sure fire way to hate timesharing. Do great trades happen- of course, but the reality is you are more likely to be disappointed. Using a Marriott Gold studio to trade into a Hawaii 2 BR is likely to happen only during Flexchange. Fast forward a few years and let's say you want to go to Hawaii over the summer and want a 2BR and want to be able to plan more than within the last 2 months. Who do you think will get the trade faster- someone offering a 2 BR Plat. week or someone offering even a 2BR Gold week at the same resort (yes, there are some Gold weeks that trade as well or better than some Plat. weeks, but that is resort and week dependent)? It makes common sense that the 2BR Plat. week will have a higher trade power. 

Timeshare salespeople are notorious for telling you how a cheaper week will get you the trades you want once they've surmised you don't want to spend quite so much. The reality is that, in today's market, you can likely buy 2 Plat. MCV weeks for the price of that single Gold week on the resale market. You will be able to book your home resort at a timframe you'd like to visit it in, you will have a more desirable week and hence higher trade power when you want to go elsewhere (and, likely, if you book a high demand week at MCV likely be able to trade even the 1BR for a 2 BR off season in Hawaii if you can find one online or into a 2BR in Kaui, for example). 

You will get the same trade power as if you bought directly from Marriott. The only difference is you won't be able to trade for points. That doesn't exclude you from buying points or earning points in other ways, though. Before you make a final decision, take the time to read here and ask questions, so you are sure you are making the right decision for you. BUT THE ONLY WAY NOT TO MAKE A MISTAKE IS TO RESCIND IMMEDIATELY, because the option to make the same purchase will be there tomorrow, but the option to rescind won't be.


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## RMAC (Mar 17, 2009)

To quote my contract "Purchaser's right to cancel: you may cancel this agreement without any cancellation fee or other penalty by Hand delivering, fax transmission or certified mail.  The notice must be delivered or postmarked by midnight of the 7th calendar day.

That is why I said midnight.  I will be sending a cancellation notice today for a couple reasons, I do see some value in original ownership but I have too many questions and need more time to evaluate my options.  

The bottom line in Timeshare is the same as Home ownership.  If you think that your timeshare should not go down in value and blame Marriott for a devaluation you really need to look around.  Realstate has gone down in value, in some cases more then half.  What makes you think that Timeshares shouldn't devalue?  


Thanks

For all your advice I look forward to future discussions on this forum


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## Powerguy (Mar 17, 2009)

I would suggest that you fax your rescind request and call to confirm receipt of the fax. You can ALWAYS do better on a resale....


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## m61376 (Mar 17, 2009)

Welcome to Tug  .

I surmised that the midnight deadline was in your contract, but I just wanted to point out that the avenues for doing so might close much earlier.

Most people here recognize that timeshares are distinct from other real estate and the overhead of developer sales makes it more akin to a car purchase, but even more so, with the resale value ~ halved- or less (give or take, depending upon the resort/season/developer) - as soon as the ink dries on the paperwork. I think the complaints you read about Marriott devaluations are pointed to the devaluation of points or other programs in effect at the time of consumer purchase which buyers expected to remain stable over time.

Don't get me wrong- I am very happy with the product and the ownership. Personally, at the times I purchased and for what I was buying I felt that resale was a better avenue (based on price differentials and relatively limited incentive packages); had I though about buying when the resort was first announced, for example, and/or at a time when there were great point incentives, my decision might have been different. What was right for me may not be for you. The reason why I advised you so adamantly to rescind is so that you can take the opportunity to become better educated and make the right decision for you and your family's needs/wants.


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## m61376 (Mar 17, 2009)

Powerguy said:


> I would suggest that you fax your rescind request and call to confirm receipt of the fax. You can ALWAYS do better on a resale....



A lot of $$'s are at stake here. A certified letter or a hand delivered one (if still on site) with a receipt are better legal protections than a phone call.


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## Powerguy (Mar 17, 2009)

Here is the list of Canyon Villas listed on redweek.

  Price     Week   (Season) Use     Type Unit View Bd/ Ba Occ   
 $7,500   Floating (Varies)  Annual  Deed  Varies  2/ 2  8  View  
 $9,200   Floating (High)    Odd      Deed  Varies  2/ 2.5  8  View  
 $11,499  Floating (Med)   Annual   Deed  Varies  2/ 2  8  View  
 $12,500  Floating (Med)   Annual   Deed  Varies  2/ 2  8  View  
 $12,900  Floating (High)   Annual   Deed  Varies  2/ 2  8  View  
 $15,000  Floating (High)   Annual   Deed  Varies  2/ 3  8  View  
 $15,000  Floating (High)   Annual   Deed  Varies  2/ 2  8  View  
 $22,500           3 (High)   Annual   Deed  None  2/ 2  8  View  


PLATINUM SEASON (weeks 1-17 and 41-51) 

GOLD SEASON (weeks 18-40, May thru mid-October), 

How do these prices compare to the developer prices you were given?


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## Bill4728 (Mar 17, 2009)

RMAC said:


> From your professional opinions: is a lock off studio unit of a floating gold week (we will try and lock off the best of the gold season, though who wants to be in Phoenix anytime in the summer) going to be good enough to get us two bedroom in Hawaii off season?  (at least less off season as hawaii gets)
> 
> We are debating about gold vs platinum, is Marriott lock off gold (studio or 1 bdrm) going to get us enough clout in Hawaii to get a two bedroom?
> 
> thanks for your advice



I believe that the seasons at Gold Caynon are gold =Summer and Plat is everything else. Correct?

Than a studio during gold season is not going to get you a 2 bed in hawaii during any time of the year. But a 1 bd may get you Hawaii but likely only a 1 bd. If you need a 2 bd, you may have make 2 trades (trade the 1 bd for a 1 bd & the studio for a studio)


IMHO, the best value in Marriott is buying resale at one of the Palm Desert resorts. All the resorts there have three seasons. Winter/spring = Plat/red,  Fall=Gold/White and summer=Silver/Blue. And there are all lock-off units. You can buy a gold season for <$7,000 and trade the 1 bd into hawaii during most of the year. 

Good Luck


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## Zac495 (Mar 17, 2009)

RMAC said:


> To quote my contract "Purchaser's right to cancel: you may cancel this agreement without any cancellation fee or other penalty by Hand delivering, fax transmission or certified mail.  The notice must be delivered or postmarked by midnight of the 7th calendar day.
> 
> That is why I said midnight.  I will be sending a cancellation notice today for a couple reasons, I do see some value in original ownership but I have too many questions and need more time to evaluate my options.
> 
> ...



No, no - it's nothing like home ownership. It will never go up in value. It is valuable in the love of vacationing - and getting a great place to stay. In this economy, they have devalued a lot. In a good economy, they still will not go up in value. 

Do not think of a timeshare as any kind of investment.


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## Powerguy (Mar 17, 2009)

The "return" on your timeshare is your use. Think of it as money in the bank and you are taking the "interest" on what you paid versus having the money in the bank - plus your maintenance fee and taxes and spending it on your weeks use of a villa. Good news is you don't pay income tax on the "interest".


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## Uccello (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi All - just found the BBS tonight- what a great resource! Had I stumbled upon it a few years ago before we purchased at Mountainside I might not have bought. 

In any case, here's my 2 cents. We were at Mountainside in Feb and also received resale offers in the welcome kit. Our school has changed its ski week, so I went to check out what was available. As has already been posted, Mountainside has been sold out for a while. The on-site sales office at the resort on the second floor was moved to downtown Park City before ski season 2008 and the space converted into villas. Now the downtown office has been closed as well. There are no more brokers on the mountain fishing for leads or anyone promoting Mountainside with free chapstick around the resort.

The kiosk in the plaza is now run by a "selected" broker with many of the trimmings of the Marriott brand but he is independent from Marriott. When I talked to him the prices were still at the developer level, though he encouraged us to make an offer and lead us to believe that a lower offer might be accepted by both the seller and Marriott. The only advantage was Marriott points, other than that, a purchase through them would be the same as through a third party. We don't use points, so there was no advantage to purchase through the "selected broker". I suspect that there is an increase in the foreclosures with Marriott timeshares due to the economy, so maybe this is how they get rid of them.

As for the guy who has young kids and is wondering whether or not to get into timeshares, here's our viewpoint- we are satisfied with the system because we want to go skiing every year with the kids. They have a fixed winter break, so we know where we'll be every year. Don't expect to buy at a certain resort because it is affordable and think you will be able to trade into some other, perhaps more desirable resort. Buy where you will use it most. Making reservations is a hassle and I feel the whole system is just terrible (but I imagine it used to be worse). I've gotten up at 5:30 am to call in at 6:00 am only to get an operator at 6:01 and be told that ALL rooms are booked already. It took me three weeks to book at our own resort!

As for RMAC  "I was told that Original owners have a higher trade status then resale owners (can anyone confirm this)" this is indeed true but ONLY for trading within your home resort. http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=709 (unless of course this policy has changed!)

Zac495 is absolutely correct, we do not feel our timeshare has been any kind of real estate investment. Just before purchasing our TS, we cut through most of the sales pitch and realized that when you buy a timeshare, especially an expensive one (+30k), you are essentially buying the next 15 years of one week vacations in advance. We went ahead with it because we want to ski in Park City every year and Mountainside is a really, really great resort and the staff is excellent. If you have kids, realize that they have fixed holidays that may or may not coincide with your TS reservations unless you pony up and buy a fix week.

Good luck!

.u.


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## thinze3 (Mar 26, 2009)

What a great post for a newcomer.  
I only saw one thing that may need adressing.

If you own at a resort and trade back into your home resort, you have priority over other Marriott resort owners with comparable trading strength. This is the case whether you bought from Marriott or bought resale.

To stress, the ONLY difference between buying from Marriott, buying resale, and now buying resale from a "preferred" broker, is the ability to use points and NOTHING else. No trading preferences, zilch, nada.

Welcome to Tug! 

.


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## Zac495 (Mar 26, 2009)

I agree with Terry - GREAT first post from a newcomer to TUG. WELCOME. I hope you stay around. 

If you ever buy a second timeshare (not suggesting either way), you get equal trading resale as buying from the developer.


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