# Wyndham deal - good or not so much?



## lalahe (Aug 23, 2013)

I am looking into 2 potential Wyndham resales and wanted your opinion on which, if any, you felt was a good deal.  I know that you earn a credit for each 77,000 which makes me wonder if these point packages are good.

Any insight from Wyndham owners or good knowledge of Wyndham is appreciated on whether these would be good resale options and what value do you think they are worth?  How much is too much to pay?  I'm not sure how to gauge at what price point it is a good deal or overpaying.

1.  Wyndham Panama City at Emerald FL 
168k Club Wyndham Plus Points 
MF - $679
Would have to pay closing costs and transfer fee

2.  Wyndham Points Flagstaff AZ 
182,000 Annual
Deeded Perpetual Ownership (Week 51, Unit 0107)
MF - $698
Closing costs and transfer fee's are paid for by the seller
2003 points of 182,000 are available to buyer.

Thank you


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## uscav8r (Aug 24, 2013)

WRT #1, one cannot answer your question without knowing how much is charged for closing (can be anywhere from $199 to $500) plus the $299 Wyndham fee. Panama City has low annual MF, so don't expect it to go for $1 including fees.

WRT #2, it sounds like a converted fixed week. I am not familiar with the nuances of those (I.e., are you limited to ARP only for that week at that resort, etc.) but the MF per 1000 points seems really low.

To correct one of your stipulations, you get 1 RT -- reservation transaction -- per 77,000 points. Housekeeping credits are accrued at 1 per 1,000 points. So the Panama City contract would get 168 per year. HK usage varies by unit size and by length of stay.

Stay length..Studio....1BR....2BR....3BR....4BR
1-7 days......28.........63.......77.....140.....154
8-14............56.........126.....154....280.....308
15-21..........84.........189......231...420.....462


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## lalahe (Aug 24, 2013)

The first one shows the following fees:
Closing Costs: $435 (includes document preparation, transfer taxes, etc.)
Ten Months of the 2013 Maintenance Fees: $566
Resort Transfer Fee:  $299

I don't expect it to be anywhere close to $1 but that still doesn't help me identify what is paying too much or not.

Right now they are both between $300 and $400 but still have several days to go before the auctions close.


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## uscav8r (Aug 24, 2013)

So PC is already costing ~$1300 without making a bid. If this has a January use year, any delay in transferring this to you will jeopardize any use of the 2013 points. At this point, you are likely limited to dumping the 2013 points into RCI, but to do so, you'd need to have a perfect/fast closing, AND have Wyndham set up your RCI account before the end of the year.

I would write off any ability to use the 2013 points. In the end you are looking at total purchase price, then figure you max bid amount. If bids are already at $400 ($1700 total cost), that makes this fairly pricey. 

FWIW, I got a 231,000 annual contract at a different resort with similarly low MF to Panama City for a total cost of just over $1200. In my mind, that was a good-but-not-outstanding price. I was not looking for ARP at that resort, just low MF in a small contract enough for a week in a 2BR at most Wyndhams.

If I were looking for ARP at a specific resort, I might have gone somewhat higher on my offer. 

My recommendation would be to watch some of these auctions and see about what the going rate is for certain resorts. If you bid low and lose, so be it. There will be more options in the future. There is a tab on each resort reviews on TUG that is a rudimentary tracker of historical sales prices on certain resorts (this is NOT all-inclusive and is dependent upon TUG member input).


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## vacationhopeful (Aug 24, 2013)

The Flagstaff as a converted fixed week will have ARP limited to the underlying week (if UDI the deed would have said UDI 168K out of zillion million points).

The MF for Flagstaff - if correct and not several years old - would be $4.15/1K. Does that include the CWP Plus fee of $.54/1K (or a minimum of $124 per member number)?


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## uscav8r (Aug 24, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> The Flagstaff as a converted fixed week will have ARP limited to the underlying week (if UDI the deed would have said UDI 168K out of zillion million points).
> 
> The MF for Flagstaff - if correct and not several years old - would be $4.15/1K. Does that include the CWP Plus fee of $.54/1K (or a minimum of $124 per member number)?



That Flagstaff MF seems lower than I have seen. But then again, I wasn't sure if that was a benefit of it being a converted fixed week. Sounds like a question for the OP to ask the seller!


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## uscav8r (Aug 24, 2013)

lalahe said:


> ... I know that you earn a credit for each 77,000 which makes me wonder if these point packages are good.
> ...Thank you



While it is nice to have contracts that are multiples of 77k to more efficiently earn RTs, this can always change. I think when I first bought in it used to be 1 RT per 70k.

The other consideration is what type of unit you expect to need for a given season, and that doesn't always follow the 77k multiple. For instance a prime week 2BR at Flagstaff is 182k (and lock-offs and the 2BR Plus units are up to 189k).

That prime week 2BR at Steamboat Springs is a 77k multiple, but is much more expensive"at a "cost" of 231k.


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## ronparise (Aug 24, 2013)

I calculate the mf ratio at the Flagstaff property to be $3.84 assuming the program fee is in the quoted mf

This is really good, but not unbelievable  I own a converted fixed week at Pagosa, where the points charts are the same as Flagstaff and two bedroom mf  is almost exactly the same as quoted for Flagstaff.  the mf ratio there for a 2 bed/prime season conversion is  also $3.84/1000

Id be a buyer here if I had the money and if I could get it for under $2000 but I think its worth more than $3000,  if the buyers understand how cheap the mf is

I think the Panama City contract will  go for over $2000 maybe as much as $3000 (incl closing and transfer fees and the past due maintenance fees. ) the 10 months of maintenance fees the seller wants is a wildcard. Id be willing to pay it as I think the deal will close before December, and I could make use of those 2013 points at the end of the year. and the op seems to want to depost to rci anyway

Id be a buyer here up to $2000 (incl fees and past due mf) but think it will go for more


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## lalahe (Aug 24, 2013)

Thank you all so much. This is very helpful. 

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 4


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## kwindham (Aug 24, 2013)

Either those flagstaff numbers are wrong, or Im paying way more per point than op is referencing.  I copied and pasted from my wyndham account my converted fixed week 105,000 point contract.

Contract Type: Fixed Week (F/W)
Points: 105,000

Total HOA Fee
Maintenance Fees: $422.96 
Reserve Fund: $153.00 
Property Tax: $24.06 
Total HOA Fee: $600.02 

Contact your Property Management for the Condo Association Budget
Program Fee
Program Rate for 1,000 Points: $0.54
Program Fee: (105,000 / 1000) * $0.54 = $56.70 

CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Assessment
Annual Fee: $600.02 + $56.70 = $656.72 
* Monthly Fee: $656.72 / 12 = $54.73 

My maintenance here is higher than my Hawaii property, and is the highest mf I have in my portfolio.


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## lalahe (Aug 24, 2013)

Wow that is a lot of fees!  I emailed the seller to ask about this.  Hopefully they will respond with answers.  That definitely makes it much higher than $698 a year if thats the case.


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## ronparise (Aug 24, 2013)

kwindham said:


> Either those flagstaff numbers are wrong, or Im paying way more per point than op is referencing.  I copied and pasted from my wyndham account my converted fixed week 105,000 point contract.
> 
> Contract Type: Fixed Week (F/W)
> Points: 105,000
> ...



How Maintenance fees are calculated for converted fixed weeks is not as straightforward as you might like

The fact is that your maintenance fees are actually cheaper than whats quoted in the ebay ad  $656 per year vs $698. the difference is in the number of poits each one converts to. The ad I think is for a 2 bedroom plus in prime season, Yours looks like a 2 bedroom plus in Quiet season or a 2 bed deluxe in Value season.


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## ronparise (Aug 24, 2013)

lalahe said:


> Wow that is a lot of fees!  I emailed the seller to ask about this.  Hopefully they will respond with answers.  That definitely makes it much higher than $698 a year if thats the case.



This seller makes a lot of mistakes with their ads but what they quote here seems to me to be inclusive of all the fees....

But its these questions that make the advice to always ask for the estopple good advice

By the way my experience with this seller is that if they make a mistake, they will make things right with their buyers


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## capital city (Aug 24, 2013)

I wouldnt pay more then $1k for the panama pts. I bought 520k panama points just 9 months ago for $4k otd. This included 520k points to use that were already in the account which we got 3 weeks out of. So we rented 1 week for $1300 and our total was $2700 with 2 weeks of vacation. I looked for the best m/f places at around .05 - .06 per point. I would absolutely not pay over .1 per pt.


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## ronparise (Aug 24, 2013)

capital city said:


> I wouldnt pay more then $1k for the panama pts. I bought 520k panama points just 9 months ago for $4k otd. This included 520k points to use that were already in the account which we got 3 weeks out of. So we rented 1 week for $1300 and our total was $2700 with 2 weeks of vacation. I looked for the best m/f places at around .05 - .06 per point. I would absolutely not pay over .1 per pt.



I wouldnt pay that much either, but thats not the question. The question is what would someone else pay . and I think a penny a point is about right  for the small very low mf contracts, today... Well see, the auctions end in a few days


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## Deb from NC (Aug 24, 2013)

I recently bought 182K points at Flagstaff with similar maint fees.  I bought it specifically because the fees were so low...it was also a converted fixed week.  I didn't really care about ARP, but I did book a few days in Flagstaff for next May.   (Didn't need the ARP).  I'm happy with the purchase...the fees are less than my OTA contract .  I paid $850 which included all closing costs,transfer fees and all 2013 points.


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## Kidpolska (Aug 24, 2013)

I've been watching these two auctions, as well.  The best deals I've seen the last couple of weeks on EBay were 343k at Natl Harbor and 503k at Waikiki Beach Walk, which both went for around 4k, after fees (both had low MF's). I'm only looking or 231k, so I didn't even bother bidding...in any event, $4k is much better than the $67k Wyndham tried to get me for in Myrtle!


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## ronparise (Aug 24, 2013)

Deb from NC said:


> I recently bought 182K points at Flagstaff with similar maint fees.  I bought it specifically because the fees were so low...it was also a converted fixed week.  I didn't really care about ARP, but I did book a few days in Flagstaff for next May.   (Didn't need the ARP).  I'm happy with the purchase...the fees are less than my OTA contract .  I paid $850 which included all closing costs,transfer fees and all 2013 points.



You got a very good deal. 

I wouldnt be surprised to learn that this thread  is responsible for the current Flagstaff auction getting the bidding its getting. Its up to over $900 with 5 days to go

To the op...let this be a lesson, dont tip your hand here on tug. You will get competitors bidding on the auction


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## lalahe (Aug 24, 2013)

Yeah I see that 

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 4


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## ronparise (Aug 24, 2013)

Kidpolska said:


> I've been watching these two auctions, as well.  The best deals I've seen the last couple of weeks on EBay were 343k at Natl Harbor and 503k at Waikiki Beach Walk, which both went for around 4k, after fees (both had low MF's). I'm only looking or 231k, so I didn't even bother bidding...in any event, $4k is much better than the $67k Wyndham tried to get me for in Myrtle!



How about my 672k Canterbury contract at under $1500?


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## scootr5 (Aug 24, 2013)

ronparise said:


> How about my 672k Canterbury contract at under $1500?



Well, yeah- but wasn't that due to a mistake in the listing that you caught? 

I just bought 156k at Smoky Mountains for $300, and a recent eBay auction went for about $1000.


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## 55plus (Aug 24, 2013)

*Buy in the Winter*

I find the best time to buy is during the winter months. In 2007 I bought 525K points at Ocean Walk on Christmas Eve for $1 on eBay. The funny thing was I was sitting down at the bar in Ocean Walk watching the time run out on the auction, and no one bid against me.  I purchased several other large deeds during the winter months for next to nothing. That's when Wyndham only charged $99 to transfer deed ownerships. If I want to buy more deeds it'll be in the winter...


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## Kidpolska (Aug 24, 2013)

Don't disdain lalahe, most people who have been fortunate enough to find this wonderful community of TUG are also watching the online auctions.  I know that Sumday I will be lucky enough to win one, too!


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## lalahe (Aug 24, 2013)

What a bummer. This one is through the roof already. I guess I will continue to scout until I find one. Maybe waiting until winter may be better. 

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 4


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## Kidpolska (Aug 24, 2013)

ronparise said:


> How about my 672k Canterbury contract at under $1500?



I remember seeing a huge Canterbury contract, but I didn't pay much attention since it was WAY out of my point range.  But it sounds like you got a steal!


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## 55plus (Aug 24, 2013)

Here's a Wyndham 500K Canterbury in San Francisco deed: http://www.ebay.com/itm/500-000-POI...21192774425?pt=Timeshares&hash=item4ac894cb19 It's free closing.

Search "Wyndham Free Closing" on eBay and see the Branson deeds. The auction ends in a day plus a couple of hours. There are others, but these seen to be the biggest bang for the buck (154K and 105K). Palm Aire and Star Island both are 105K are at $1.


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## Joe33426 (Aug 25, 2013)

morrisjim said:


> Here's a Wyndham 500K Canterbury in San Francisco deed: http://www.ebay.com/itm/500-000-POI...21192774425?pt=Timeshares&hash=item4ac894cb19 It's free closing.



The only problem with the last few of the e-bay auctions for things like this is that people are jacking up the price to points that it doesn't seem (to me) to be worth the additional money.  

Just say the above goes for $5,000 like the last one, so if you save $500/year on your MF, it's going to take 10 years to recoup that upfront cost.  Versus purchasing somewhere with $4/1,000 MF.  And there is no guarantee that the MF isn't going up in those 10 years.  Also, this computation doesn't take into time value of money, so the present value of the MF discounts is probably more like $2,000.  


I'm assuming that people are bidding to get low MF, rather than a specific need for ARP at these places, and if so, I don't see the math.  I see the above listing as another one that people will bid on irrationally to save on MF, but pay more upfront.


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## jeffwill (Aug 25, 2013)

joe33426 is absolutly CORRECT.


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## pacodemountainside (Aug 25, 2013)

The olde  car salesman "trick".  Emphasize how low  monthly payment is  vs  total  cost  and how many years.


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## ronparise (Aug 25, 2013)

Joe33426 said:


> The only problem with the last few of the e-bay auctions for things like this is that people are jacking up the price to points that it doesn't seem (to me) to be worth the additional money.
> 
> Just say the above goes for $5,000 like the last one, so if you save $500/year on your MF, it's going to take 10 years to recoup that upfront cost.  Versus purchasing somewhere with $4/1,000 MF.  And there is no guarantee that the MF isn't going up in those 10 years.  Also, this computation doesn't take into time value of money, so the present value of the MF discounts is probably more like $2,000.
> 
> ...



I dont think you are right on this point That recent 703000 Canterbury auction that went for nearly $6000 plus closing is a perfect example.

That buyer paid $6700 for 703000 points. Spread over 10 years that adds $670 to his annual expenses.  MF is $2628. so his total is $3298 a year or $4.70/1000 points...which is pretty damn good

You have to remember that if you buy a $4/1000 mf contract its going to have some significant upfront costs too.

Compare this to a contract with average mf (say a CWA contract, where the mf is $5.45/1000) . Even if you get one of those for free, the Canterbury contract with all that up front money, is still a much,  much better deal


There are I suspect very few deals these days where you can get a contract  with a total annual cost (mf plus purchase costs amortized over ten years) of less than $5.50-$6.00

I dont think these big numbers for the really low mf properties are all the result of irrational bidding.


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## Joe33426 (Aug 25, 2013)

ronparise said:


> I dont think you are right on this point That recent 703000 Canterbury auction that went for nearly $6000 plus closing is a perfect example.
> 
> That buyer paid $6700 for 703000 points. Spread over 10 years that adds $670 to his annual expenses.  MF is $2628. so his total is $3298 a year or $4.70/1000 points...which is pretty damn good
> 
> ...



I wasn't saying "no value", but $6,700 is way more than I would have paid.  I could acquire 700K points @$4/1,000 MF for 1/2 of $6,700, that's my point.


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## ronparise (Aug 25, 2013)

Joe33426 said:


> I wasn't saying "no value", but $6,700 is way more than I would have paid.  I could acquire 700K points @$4/1,000 MF for 1/2 of $6,700, that's my point.



Even if you could get 700000 points for half as much it would only be slightly better than the Canterbury deal Amortize the purchase costs over 10 years , add the mf  and you get an mf ratio of $4.50 vs the 4,70 I calculated for Canterbury

But getting that contract for half of the Canterbury price is unlikely

Here are 5 recent Panama City ebay deals with total purchase costs

405000 points  $4195
301000 points $3635
84000 points  $650
808000 points  $2470
189000 points  $1995

The only one better than the high priced canterbury deal was the 808k one


Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt pay than much either, but its not because they arent good deals....Its because I dont like to pay anything for a timeshare. Id rather take a PalmAire contract with $6/1000 mf for a dollar, and pay a higher maintenance fee each year, than pay big bucks up front for the under $4 stuff. But thats me.  The guy that shells out the big bucks is getting the better deal in the long run


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## Kidpolska (Aug 25, 2013)

This is one of the reasons I'm so glad I found this board!  I like to see the different perspectives on things and as a newbie, it helps for me to develop a gameplan for how/what to purchase.


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## jebloomquist (Aug 25, 2013)

I believe that the days of $1 or even relatively cheap auctions are over. This is due in part to the spreading of the news on TUG that there are much cheaper properties on eBay auctions and elsewhere than what the developers charge.

My estimate of the final auction bids for the two auctions mentioned by the OP are about $600 for Panama City and $1,900 for Flagstaff. So the totals paid by the buys will be about $1,900 each.

But, I am probably too optimistic. They probably will be higher.

Jim


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## Rent_Share (Aug 25, 2013)

Just wait till the next batch of annually billed maintenance fees come due,

Or one of the relief companies mailings hits a significant number of Wyndham owners


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## Kidpolska (Aug 25, 2013)

Rent_Share said:


> Just wait till the next batch of annually billed maintenance fees come due,
> 
> Or one of the relief companies mailings hits a significant number of Wyndham owners



That's what I'm hoping for!,,


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## Bigrob (Aug 25, 2013)

*The Other Aspect is that...*

MFs are not constant. Newer resorts still being sold by the developer are cheaper due to marketing and the fact the resort is new and doesn't require as much maintenance. But I wonder how long the MFs are going to stay low relative to the rest of the Wyndham properties in areas that are generally high COLA areas (San Fran and DC area)... isn't it realistic to expect those MFs to normalize over time... in fact for those two in particular (National Harbor and Canterbury) I could see them actually exceeding the average over time. Of course my crystal ball has been wrong before, and the MFs may be low for long enough that it falls outside of an individual's investment horizon.

It might be a good strategy - if "home resort ARP" is not important - to seek out those resorts that have a demonstrated track record of lower MF's that may still be available at attractive upfront prices. My guess is that it would be possible to develop a target 10-year pricing target and that would enable you to know what you would be willing to pay upfront at each resort.

Aren't the Panama City MFs somewhat variable? Not all PC locations seem to have low MFs.


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## lalahe (Aug 26, 2013)

Using these auctions as an example - would the 182,000 points or whatever the point amount for the auction is deposit into RCI Weeks or RCI Points?  I am a little confused on that part with converted fixed weeks

I currently own an RCI Week Timeshare which I get TPU's for.  With the Wyndham converted fixed week for instance how do those points pool over to RCI?  I'm trying to understand how this would work if I wanted to use my Wyndham points to book a 2 bedroom DVC unit for instance.

If it does go into RCI Week and not RCI points then will the current week account I own work or will they have to create a different RCI account for the Wyndham points for me?


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## ronparise (Aug 26, 2013)

You will be able to get Wyndham to associate your existing RCI account with your Wyndham account. and then Wyndham will pay your annual membership fee.  This probably wont be automatic. I would call Wyndham and probably RCI to make sure they do it that way



Or I suppose if you wanted, for some reason, to have two rci accounts you could do that too


As far as how you deposit Wyndham points to RCI and how you use them there. I though you got that figured out in the thread you started on that topic... Clearly you didnt

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197825.

The answer hasnt changed

Forget what you know about TPU. 

You will access your RCI account through the Wyndham portal, from your Wyndham account.  Wyndham points are deposited as Wyndham points into an RCI weeks account and exchanges are denominated in Wyndham points, not tpu

here is an example of what you will see


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## lalahe (Aug 26, 2013)

I thought I did too but I was reading another thread that made me second guess my understanding. Thank you for the screenshot. I understand now 

Cheers,
Mary Ellen


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## capital city (Aug 26, 2013)

Bigrob said:


> MFs are not constant. Newer resorts still being sold by the developer are cheaper due to marketing and the fact the resort is new and doesn't require as much maintenance. But I wonder how long the MFs are going to stay low relative to the rest of the Wyndham properties in areas that are generally high COLA areas (San Fran and DC area)... isn't it realistic to expect those MFs to normalize over time... in fact for those two in particular (National Harbor and Canterbury) I could see them actually exceeding the average over time. Of course my crystal ball has been wrong before, and the MFs may be low for long enough that it falls outside of an individual's investment horizon.
> 
> It might be a good strategy - if "home resort ARP" is not important - to seek out those resorts that have a demonstrated track record of lower MF's that may still be available at attractive upfront prices. My guess is that it would be possible to develop a target 10-year pricing target and that would enable you to know what you would be willing to pay upfront at each resort.
> 
> Aren't the Panama City MFs somewhat variable? Not all PC locations seem to have low MFs.



I'm not sure where everyone gets this under developer control and is only cheaper right now. There are plenty of these low m/f resorts that are not still being sold and prices manipulated to sell more points. The ones that are lower have been for years and only suggest they will stay that way. The reason they are lower is because of the pt requirements to stay there. 

For example look at Panama City and Royal Vista. Panama City is over 300,000 pts for a 2br deluxe and Royal Vista is around 200,000. Lets say Panama City is right at $4/1000 and Royal Vista is $6/1000 they are both bringing in $1200 for the week. Why do people think that Panama City will eventually go up to $6/1000 for no reason. Then it would cost close to $2k for a week there and would be completely out of line what a "maintenance fee" should be. 

A 500,000 pt Panama City contract goes for 3-5k so lets call it 4k
A 500,000 pt contract for something at $5/1000 is going to sell for 2-4k so call it 3k
Your out an extra $1000 but will make that up in 2 years. I found that almost all lower m/f resorts will break even in 2-5 years tops. The other bonus is that if I'm right and they stay lower then when it comes time to sell you will make that purchase price back so you reaped the benefits of lower m/f for free.


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## ronparise (Aug 26, 2013)

capital city said:


> I'm not sure where everyone gets this under developer control and is only cheaper right now. There are plenty of these low m/f resorts that are not still being sold and prices manipulated to sell more points. The ones that are lower have been for years and only suggest they will stay that way. The reason they are lower is because of the pt requirements to stay there.
> 
> For example look at Panama City and Royal Vista. Panama City is over 300,000 pts for a 2br deluxe and Royal Vista is around 200,000. Lets say Panama City is right at $4/1000 and Royal Vista is $6/1000 they are both bringing in $1200 for the week. Why do people think that Panama City will eventually go up to $6/1000 for no reason. Then it would cost close to $2k for a week there and would be completely out of line what a "maintenance fee" should be.
> 
> ...





You are exactly right....Its points inflation that makes for a lower maintenance fee rate, not developer subsidies

Ive been preaching this for a while but I haven't gotten through to the masses. My argument is that at the resorts where the maintenance fee rate is lower you will find that the actual maintenance fee dollars are higher.  And the only reason the rate is low is because the number of points to stay there is so high

We need to distinguish between actual maintenance fee dollars collected, and the maintenance fee rate

If you take a closer look you will see that the lower rates are at the resorts that have the higher points requirements.

The fact is that although the maintenance fee rate is less at these newer resorts, the actual maintenance fee dollars collected per unit is greater. The rate (dollars per 1000 points) is less because the points requirement to stay there is more.

Heres a question for you:

The maintenance fee rate at National Harbor is $4/1000 points 
I also own a converted fixed week at Fairfield Harbor, (converted to 105000 points) where the Maintenance fee rate is $8/1000 points.....Which resort is more expensive to maintain?

The answer is National Harbor .

A two bedroom at National Harbor in prime season costs 275000 points..at $4/1000 points thats $1100

Maintenance fees for a two bedroom at Fairfield Harbor (including the program fee) is $834

So which is the most expensive to maintain?...its National Harbor


The maintenance fee per 1000 points at National Harbor is cheaper than most, because the points requirement is higher than most. It has nothing to do with developer subsidies.

I think fees at National Harbor would be even higher except that this place is an urban property, there are no grounds to maintain,and no free parking lots. Also a portion of the building is a commercial rental, providing some income to the HOA 


Bottom line Maintenance Fees are not lower at National Harbor..they are in fact higher than most. The rate is lower, because points are higher

Now that you know what we owners are paying to maintan National Harbor  (almost $60000 a year for a 2 bedroom) what makes you think National Harbor fees will go up more than the average resort....Its already very high


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## snickers104 (Aug 26, 2013)

So under the "points is points" theory,  National Harbor is a good buy because of low MF's and higher trading power?  If I never plan on staying there, buying into National Harbor seems like a win to me.


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## pacodemountainside (Aug 26, 2013)

You are espousing Ron's  POINTS INFLATION,  theory of the case which I agree with.

However, down the  road when Developer's   subsidies   cease , manufactures  warranties expire  and  huge insurance deductibles kick in when catastrophe happens   MF will go up or a  SA levied.

Had not seen Ron's post! Very slow typer!


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## Joe33426 (Aug 26, 2013)

I can't wait to see the bidding on the upcoming 500K canterbury points.  I  predict $7,000 with all the talk on TUG.  I might even bid it up and drop out at the last minute.  

Funny, most of these auctions are private, so you can't see the bidders.

But, because the MF are so low and not likely to ever to increase, these are awesome deals...... [sarcastic grin]


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## ronparise (Aug 26, 2013)

Joe33426 said:


> I can't wait to see the bidding on the upcoming 500K canterbury points.  I  predict $7,000 with all the talk on TUG.  I might even bid it up and drop out at the last minute.
> 
> Funny, most of these auctions are private, so you can't see the bidders.
> 
> But, because the MF are so low and not likely to ever to increase, these are awesome deals......



I don't think it's tuggers that are bidding these things up. We are far too cheap. And speaking for myself, I'm still living in the past, in the days of the dollar timeshare.


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## pacodemountainside (Aug 26, 2013)

With Ron. Tuggers know how to run numbers especially with big  upfront  payments and high closing   costs!

The olde car salesman  tactic,  just $300 a month but for 10 years and interest  costs twice what car is worth.


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## Bigrob (Aug 26, 2013)

*Ron is the Jedi Master!*



ronparise said:


> You are exactly right....Its points inflation that makes for a lower maintenance fee rate, not developer subsidies
> 
> Ive been preaching this for a while but I haven't gotten through to the masses. My argument is that at the resorts where the maintenance fee rate is lower you will find that the actual maintenance fee dollars are higher.  And the only reason the rate is low is because the number of points to stay there is so high
> 
> ...



Thanks for correcting my misperception! It also gives me more confidence that the resorts with point inflation will likely maintain lower MF$/Kpt over time. Everything else being equal, it would make sense to target resorts where peak season stays are more expensive. Testing this theory out for Myrtle Beach properties, Ocean Boulevard is significantly more expensive to stay in points-wise than Seawatch. Everything else being equal, I would expect OB to have lower MFs/K than Seawatch. As expected, when I look at completed sales, OB is running from .60 to more than 1.20 less (to be fair, there weren't any large Seawatch contracts so it's hard to compare versus a 623K ocean blvd contract).


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## Joe33426 (Aug 27, 2013)

Bigrob said:


> Thanks for correcting my misperception! It also gives me more confidence that the resorts with point inflation will likely maintain lower MF$/Kpt over time. Everything else being equal, it would make sense to target resorts where peak season stays are more expensive. Testing this theory out for Myrtle Beach properties, Ocean Boulevard is significantly more expensive to stay in points-wise than Seawatch. Everything else being equal, I would expect OB to have lower MFs/K than Seawatch. As expected, when I look at completed sales, OB is running from .60 to more than 1.20 less (to be fair, there weren't any large Seawatch contracts so it's hard to compare versus a 623K ocean blvd contract).



I'm not sure if I would rely upon point inflation to protect against rising maintenance fees and despite hypothetical mumbo-jumbo about why associations with lower $MF/1,000 are actually costing more, the proof is in actual numbers.  

Jump over to the Wyndham forums and download the MFs in excel that goes back years.  You'll see a very clear and repeating theme....

Let's take a look at just one.  Harbour Lights in San Diego

2006 $3.30
2007 $3.67
2008 $4.40
2009 $4.53
2010 $4.68
2011 $4.92
2012 $5.09

Point inflation didn't help this association against rising fees.  Looking at the data, it appears most UDI associations start with MFs in the high $2 to low $3 range and take a slow but steady progression to the mean.  

Don't get me wrong, if I could pick up points at Panama City for cheap, I'd be interested, but I'd know that low MFs don't last forever.  For the point owners at Harbour Lights, the low MFs didn't last very long at all.  

As I spend more time on TUG, I see that a lot of these "deals" last for awhile and are eventually "corrected" (e.g. SA, 28K Wyndham-RCI trades, etc.)


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## Bigrob (Aug 27, 2013)

Joe33426 said:


> I'm not sure if I would rely upon point inflation to protect against rising maintenance fees and despite hypothetical mumbo-jumbo about why associations with lower $MF/1,000 are actually costing more, the proof is in actual numbers.
> 
> Jump over to the Wyndham forums and download the MFs in excel that goes back years.  You'll see a very clear and repeating theme....
> 
> ...



I'd like to take a look at that spreadsheet, the one I saw only went back 2 years... can you add a link?


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## Joe33426 (Aug 27, 2013)

Bigrob said:


> I'd like to take a look at that spreadsheet, the one I saw only went back 2 years... can you add a link?



I would be happy to provide link, but I don't think it would work since you have to be signed in to the forums to have access to the discussion threads. 

So in the "fees forum" there is a sub-forum titled "Maintenance Fees and Real Estate Taxes" and the file is in the very first thread.  

If you have trouble finding it, PM me and I'll email it to you.


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## timeos2 (Aug 27, 2013)

ronparise said:


> You are exactly right....Its points inflation that makes for a lower maintenance fee rate, not developer subsidies



That can be the case but not always. In the past the fees were low because of Developer subsidies but recently it may be point inflation or subsidies or in the worst examples both! 

The key is don't assume that a resort with low fees today will still have them in 5 or 10 years. History says they won't on average.


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## ronparise (Aug 27, 2013)

Joe33426 said:


> I'm not sure if I would rely upon point inflation to protect against rising maintenance fees and despite hypothetical mumbo-jumbo about why associations with lower $MF/1,000 are actually costing more, the proof is in actual numbers.
> 
> Jump over to the Wyndham forums and download the MFs in excel that goes back years.  You'll see a very clear and repeating theme....
> 
> ...



Your Harbor Lights example would seem to make your case, but I think its an extreme example at a 54% increase over the last 6 or 7 years. and not the norm, Also it's hardly a high points resort, The most expensive unit  there is only 231000 points while the classic low rate resorts like  Panama City, Bali Hai, National Harbor, Las Vegas, San Francisco range between 400k and 700k for their largest units

The fact is everything has gone up; the new "high points resorts" as well as the old "low points resorts" and for the 8 resorts I looked at, they went up from 12% to 35%.  My conclusion is that everything goes up and  high points resorts that are the lowest rate today, will probably be the lowest  mf rate resorts tomorrow,

heres a link to the spreadsheet I saved to my dropbox

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1w0vx0gdfdtyeeq/mf.xls


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## pacodemountainside (Aug 27, 2013)

*Spreadsheet Link*



Bigrob said:


> I'd like to take a look at that spreadsheet, the one I saw only went back 2 years... can you add a link?



You do have to log into Forum to access and  that may take a couple attempts.

Also, have to scroll  as takes more than one page.

http://forums.atozed.com/viewtopic.php?f=164&t=11197


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## Bigrob (Aug 27, 2013)

*Thanks!*



Joe33426 said:


> I would be happy to provide link, but I don't think it would work since you have to be signed in to the forums to have access to the discussion threads.
> 
> So in the "fees forum" there is a sub-forum titled "Maintenance Fees and Real Estate Taxes" and the file is in the very first thread.
> 
> If you have trouble finding it, PM me and I'll email it to you.



I actually had joined the Wyndham Owners forum previously and just found the spreadsheet earlier today, but thanks for the offer!

Also - just curious - whenever low cost MF resorts are discussed, it usually goes to Canterbury, Nat'l Harbor, Panama City, Bali Hai - but I haven't seen Steamboat Springs mentioned, which shows up in the spreadsheet at 3.37/K and holding steady over a 4 year period. Are there just very few of these available? Haven't seen them on eBay. South Lake Tahoe also seems cheap, but likewise haven't found availability.


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## uscav8r (Aug 27, 2013)

Joe33426 said:


> I can't wait to see the bidding on the upcoming 500K canterbury points.  I  predict $7,000 with all the talk on TUG.  I might even bid it up and drop out at the last minute...
> 
> But, because the MF are so low and not likely to ever to increase, these are awesome deals...... [sarcastic grin]



I hope you are simply joking... Frivolous bidding is a  move and it's not like you are helping the owner trying to unload it. Most EBay listings are PCCs and THEY make the extra $.


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## Joe33426 (Aug 27, 2013)

uscav8r said:


> I hope you are simply joking... Frivolous bidding is a  move.



Yes, I definitely was joking.  My luck, I'd do something like this and then win the auction.

The auction has two days left and it's already up to $4,550, so I think it will go up to the $7,000 without my help :whoopie:


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## ronparise (Aug 27, 2013)

Bigrob said:


> I actually had joined the Wyndham Owners forum previously and just found the spreadsheet earlier today, but thanks for the offer!
> 
> Also - just curious - whenever low cost MF resorts are discussed, it usually goes to Canterbury, Nat'l Harbor, Panama City, Bali Hai - but I haven't seen Steamboat Springs mentioned, which shows up in the spreadsheet at 3.37/K and holding steady over a 4 year period. Are there just very few of these available? Haven't seen them on eBay. South Lake Tahoe also seems cheap, but likewise haven't found availability.



There are any number of converted fixed weeks, large units in prime season that have a very favorable mf ratios. Places like kingsgate for example. But as you suggest we just don't see a lot of these. So we talk about what we see


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## ronparise (Aug 27, 2013)

Joe33426 said:


> Yes, I definitely was joking.  My luck, I'd do something like this and then win the auction.
> 
> The auction has two days left and it's already up to $4,550, so I think it will go up to the $7,000 without my help :whoopie:



I thought a penny a point was about right. If $7000 on this one, and that where it looks like it going. That's more like a penny and a half. 

I'm going to have to start thinking about doing some selling


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## Joe33426 (Aug 27, 2013)

ronparise said:


> I thought a penny a point was about right. If $7000 on this one, and that where it looks like it going. That's more like a penny and a half.
> 
> *I'm going to have to start thinking about doing some selling*



I figured that was coming sooner or later! 

All kidding aside, it would be a good time for you to dump some of your bazillion points, there seems to be some bidders out there ready to fork over some serious bucks for these low MFs.  And, I'm sure you paid no where near .015 per point!


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## Kidpolska (Aug 27, 2013)

The more I see these prices rising, the more I think I'm gonna wind up waiting until Dec or Jan before buying.  Even some of the relatively low point auctions are going for a pretty penny!


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## uscav8r (Aug 27, 2013)

Joe33426 said:


> Yes, I definitely was joking.  My luck, I'd do something like this and then win the auction.
> 
> The auction has two days left and it's already up to $4,550, so I think it will go up to the $7,000 without my help :whoopie:




It was just $1200 a couple of hours ago. 

Not sure if it is being bid up by  newbies, but it never goes well to tip one's hand early on these auctions. To me, a mass of bids often invites more to jump in on the fray "cuz it must be popular (and therefore desirable)!"

Guess I'll need to wait for that offer to come around when no one is looking (like Ron's 672k Canterbury contract for pennies!)!


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## uscav8r (Aug 27, 2013)

Bigrob said:


> I actually had joined the Wyndham Owners forum previously and just found the spreadsheet earlier today, but thanks for the offer!
> 
> Also - just curious - whenever low cost MF resorts are discussed, it usually goes to Canterbury, Nat'l Harbor, Panama City, Bali Hai - but I haven't seen Steamboat Springs mentioned, which shows up in the spreadsheet at 3.37/K and holding steady over a 4 year period. Are there just very few of these available? Haven't seen them on eBay. South Lake Tahoe also seems cheap, but likewise haven't found availability.



I've been waiting for a Steamboat Springs to come along since February. The only ONE to show up did so in the last 2 weeks and was quickly pulled off Ebay after only 1 or 2 days.


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## Bigrob (Aug 28, 2013)

uscav8r said:


> I've been waiting for a Steamboat Springs to come along since February. The only ONE to show up did so in the last 2 weeks and was quickly pulled off Ebay after only 1 or 2 days.



Yeah, I noticed that one too... Now you see it, now you don't.


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## Lacardsfan (Aug 29, 2013)

lalahe said:


> 2.  Wyndham Points Flagstaff AZ
> 182,000 Annual
> Deeded Perpetual Ownership (Week 51, Unit 0107)
> MF - $698
> ...



Hilarious, knew someone must have mentioned this on TUG. I was watching this one all the way through and was going to cap out at 1200. But last minute ebay jitters went for it and got the deal at 1425. 225 more than I wanted to spend, but I think it is a good deal.

Had a feeling someone must have posted because it shot up so quickyl at 4 days left. Hopefully the 10am bid end time through some of you heavier hitters off??? 

What do you think, did ebay jitters cause me to pay too much or is it a good deal??

P.S. I actually use Flagstaff every year. So there was that added bonus.


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## vacationhopeful (Aug 29, 2013)

Lacardsfan said:


> Hilarious, knew someone must have mentioned this on TUG. I was watching this one all the way through and was going to cap out at 1200. But last minute ebay jitters went for it and got the deal at 1425. 225 more than I wanted to spend, but I think it is a good deal.
> 
> Had a feeling someone must have posted because it shot up so quickyl at 4 days left. Hopefully the 10am bid end time through some of you heavier hitters off???
> 
> ...



esnipe or another sniping program. Just a better way of bidding ...


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## ronparise (Aug 29, 2013)

Lacardsfan said:


> Hilarious, knew someone must have mentioned this on TUG. I was watching this one all the way through and was going to cap out at 1200. But last minute ebay jitters went for it and got the deal at 1425. 225 more than I wanted to spend, but I think it is a good deal.
> 
> Had a feeling someone must have posted because it shot up so quickyl at 4 days left. Hopefully the 10am bid end time through some of you heavier hitters off???
> 
> ...



I think you did just great


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## timeos2 (Aug 29, 2013)

I agree with Ron. Good job.


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## Lacardsfan (Aug 29, 2013)

Whew, thanks guys. That puts me up to 410k points. Lots of vacations coming up!!! Just hope it closes before Jan 1 so I can pool the points.

Anyone closed recently and know the timeframe?


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## ronparise (Aug 29, 2013)

500,000 Canterbury just sold on eBay $5201

A penny a point seems to be the new number for the low mf contracts


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## ronparise (Aug 29, 2013)

Lacardsfan said:


> Whew, thanks guys. That puts me up to 410k points. Lots of vacations coming up!!! Just hope it closes before Jan 1 so I can pool the points.
> 
> Anyone closed recently and know the timeframe?



There are two parts to the closing. Deed prep and recording then the Wyndham part. Wyndham will tell you 6 to 8 weeks from the time that they get the newly recorded deed. But they have been faster than that lately


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## Lacardsfan (Aug 29, 2013)

ronparise said:


> There are two parts to the closing. Deed prep and recording then the Wyndham part. Wyndham will tell you 6 to 8 weeks from the time that they get the newly recorded deed. But they have been faster than that lately



Thanks Ron...That Canterbury was a good deal too. Just couldnt handle that many points right now. Got mine slightly under .01 per so pretty happy to load up today. 

Fingers crossed to be able to pool these before they disappear.


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## capital city (Aug 29, 2013)

Lacardsfan said:


> Thanks Ron...That Canterbury was a good deal too. Just couldnt handle that many points right now. Got mine slightly under .01 per so pretty happy to load up today.
> 
> Fingers crossed to be able to pool these before they disappear.



I think you did fine. Could you have found a better deal? Probably but what is your time worth? Live on ebay and bidding and waiting on every one you want to save $400? Enjoy the extra points. And do a happy dance for not paying $40k for the points


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## Kidpolska (Aug 29, 2013)

Congrats Lacardsfan!  I am not guilty of driving the price up...I didn't bid on that one.  Everything I've bid on has either been taken down by the broker or got a little to rich for my blood.  I also requested estoppel on a couple and the seller couldn't provide.


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## uscav8r (Aug 29, 2013)

Good job Lacardsfan... Underlying week is for Christmas week (51), but I don't think that gets ARP any other week, no?

In any case, I just booked for the last remaining 2BR Plus for the week leading up to July 4th next year. Flagstaff looks like it could be an unpack and stay on location kind of place (kids are going to be too young to do much of the Grand Canyon). I take it you have a good time there since you go every year!

Lalahe (OP), did you end up bidding at all?


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## Deb from NC (Aug 30, 2013)

Lacardsfan said:


> Whew, thanks guys. That puts me up to 410k points. Lots of vacations coming up!!! Just hope it closes before Jan 1 so I can pool the points.
> 
> Anyone closed recently and know the timeframe?



I bought a similar package in April..it took CoConino County 3 months to record the deed...arghhh..they said they were behind due to staff turnover!  Once the deed got to Wyndham, they took about a month to get the points in my account. Hopefully yours will close more quickly!
Deb


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## Lacardsfan (Sep 4, 2013)

uscav8r said:


> Good job Lacardsfan... Underlying week is for Christmas week (51), but I don't think that gets ARP any other week, no?
> 
> In any case, I just booked for the last remaining 2BR Plus for the week leading up to July 4th next year. Flagstaff looks like it could be an unpack and stay on location kind of place (kids are going to be too young to do much of the Grand Canyon). I take it you have a good time there since you go every year!
> 
> Lalahe (OP), did you end up bidding at all?



Well we would go up every year for Arizona Cardinals training camp and yes the resort is able to stay and play. I have a 6 and 4 year old and it was always kid friendly. Since Cardinals no longer do traning camp there we are going to try and go for the snow since we live in LA it will be a nice new vacation for us.


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