# Ways to stretch points



## GregT (Jul 4, 2010)

Okay all, acknowledging that I'm the original hater of the Skim (and still *hate *it), I want to open a thread specifically dedicated to stretching points.

If possible, please don't go tangential or negative (I'll say it for all us -- the skim sucks/Marriott suckerpunched us/what's up with the inventory allocations/why am I being skimmed 13.3%?).

So, the topic of this thread is specifically:  

*How do you stretch your points*?  Some thoughts that have occurred to me:

1) Book Sunday - Thursday only
2) Book your desired weekly reservation with points and then put in a simultaneous trade with II for same week with different trading property
    2a.  If II trades come thru, cancel your points reservation and get points restored
    2b.  Must be careful on timing here to make sure you can then bank the points (ie pre June 30 of usage year)
3) Look for owners with excess points and rent points needed to cover skimmed  needed value (sorry)
4) Look on redweek/other for your planned vacation week that is available for rent more cheaply than your reservation points are costing you (ie, if you can rent it for $1,000 from the owner and can cancel a reservation worth 3,500 points, assume you can rent those points to someone else for $1,750 -- please assume $0.50/point for the rental market until more info known)
5) Is there a high TDI property that you can acquire via (future plummeting) resale and piggyback your existing week reservation?  Example:  I have fixed Week 24/25 at MOC -- is there a resale I can buy (Legends Edge/HHI) that has a strong Week 26 trading value?  Can I buy it at resale and create a tiger trader (via traditional II trading)?  This is easier for fixed week owners than floating
    5a.  If Marriott is as inventory depleted at some of the sold out resorts, perhaps they will need whatever it is that we are trading in II, and they'll match the trade?

All, we owe it to ourselves and the other good people of TUG to figure out if there are loopholes/weaknesses in the system that go beyond simply what Marriott set up for us (like cheaper Sun-Thurs reservations).  

What are they?  

*Disclosure*:  I really really hope that I'm not stealing any of my good friend Perry's thunder -- he's not given me any of these suggestions specifically with respect to Marriott, but these ideas (such as they are) were sparked by trading strategies that he has developed with Worldmark -- the inefficiencies between Worldmark and II (and specifically for Marriott) are remarkable, and I acknowledge Perry's identifying them.  I hope he finds similar weaknesses with the new Marriott system.


Best to all,

Greg


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## JimIg23 (Jul 4, 2010)

I started this review by first starting with my normal travel pattern.  

I have an EOY NCV and EOY Harbour Lake.  I travel only in summers (at least for the next 12 years...) and use 2 bedrooms.  I have 3025 pts per year.  I went through each resort to see what I could get: 

SUMMER 2 Bedroom = 3025 pts py		

Resort	         -       Location    -	Wk Pt	 -    *Nights I Can Get*
Fairway Villas	NJ	2,750	*8*
Manor Club	WB-	2,950-	*7*
OceanWatch (GV)	MB-	3,450-	*6*
Barony (GV)	HHI-	3,725-	*6*
SurfWatch (GV)	HHI-	3,725-	*6*
Harbour Point	HHI-	1,225-	*14*
Sunset Pointe	HHI-	1,400-	*14*
Grd Ocn (OS)	HHI-	4,500-	*5*
Monarch (GV)	HHI-	2,675-	*8*
Heritage Club	HHI-	2,500-	*9*
Harbour Club	HHI-	2,275-	*10*
Crystal S (UV)	Marco-	3,000-	*7*
Doral	             Miami-	1,225-	*18*
BeachPlace	Fort L-	3,400-     *6*
Oceana P (OV)	PB-         2,950-	*7*
Ocean P (OS)	PB-	2,950-	*7*
Lakeshore (S)	Orlando-	3,225-	*6*
Grande Vista	Orlando-	2,900-	*7*
Harbour Lake	Orlando-	2,675-	*8*
Cypress Harbour	Orlando-	2,675-	*8*
Legends Edge	Pan City-	2,950-	*7*
Willow Ridge	Branson-	2,400-	*9*
StreamSide (DL)	Vail-	1,450-	*14*
StreamSide (B)	Vail 	1,900	*12  (WINTER)*
MountainSide	Park City	2,000	*12*
MountainSide	Park City 6,900	*3  (WINTER)*
Summit Watch	Park City	1,725	*13*
Summit Watch	Park City 3,900	*6   (WINTER*)
Grand Chateau®	Vegas	3,350	*6*
Shadow Ridge	Palm D	4,000	*6  ( Spring Break*)
Canyon Villas	Phoenix	4,175	*6  (Spring Break*)
Newport	             Newport	4,725	*5*
Timber Lodge	Tahoe	3,225	*6*
Timber Lodge	Tahoe 	6,450	*4  (WINTER*)
Maui Ocean Club	Maui	5,450	*4*
Ko Olina	             Oahu	4,575	*5*
Waiohai BC	Kauai	4,850	*5*
Surf Club (GV)	Aruba	2,925	*7*
Ocean Club (OV)	Aruba	3,500	*6*
St. Kitts (OV)	St Kitts	2,975	*7*
Frenchman’s Cove	St Th	2,975	*7*


This does not carry well over to the post, sorry.

Now, With ACs, Lock offs, I have done pretty well.  However, starting off for a straight point trade, I am not overly upset with this.  However, it is not prime time in many of the locations.  But for the next dozen years for me, between just using my NCV when I want, there are some decent weeks there for me.


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## gailo (Jul 4, 2010)

*Bank Points?*

Is it possible to use part of your points and bank the rest. If I join I would only use a few of my Ocean Pointe points (wk 7 reserved 2010) . Rent MFC 2010. I would save up for a big trip June 2012 (40th Anniversary). I would like to combine 2 -300 with the 800 for a trip. Bank the rest - if possible, what does that involve?


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## Venter (Jul 4, 2010)

JimIg23 said:


> I started this review by first starting with my normal travel pattern.
> 
> I have an EOY NCV and EOY Harbour Lake.  I travel only in summers (at least for the next 12 years...) and use 2 bedrooms.  I have 3025 pts per year.  I went through each resort to see what I could get:
> 
> ...



Thanks for doing this.  I am probably going to enroll.  I get 3150 for Lakeshore Reserve.  Feel massively "skimmed" but would also be able to use options of points as and when able to get best value out of it.  I know most of these weeks are not in high demand season but am glad to see I would be able to go to Chrystal Shores for a week as this is one resort I would still really like to visit.

I just gave quick check and did not think there would be many opertunities but it helps that you did it.  I might just bookmark this page for future reference.

Here is an idea - Maybe we could have a chart on the sticky board to show what you could get as near to a week as possible with x number of points.  This could then be updated as and when necessary when Marriott changes the point requirement.


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## DanCali (Jul 4, 2010)

Venter said:


> Here is an idea - Maybe we could have a chart on the sticky board to show what you could get as near to a week as possible with x number of points.  This could then be updated as and when necessary when Marriott changes the point requirement.



And let's place that chart next to the new Marriott satisaction survey sticky?


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## RBERR1 (Jul 4, 2010)

GregT said:


> Okay all, acknowledging that I'm the original hater of the Skim (and still *hate *it), I want to open a thread specifically dedicated to stretching points.
> 
> If possible, please don't go tangential or negative (I'll say it for all us -- the skim sucks/Marriott suckerpunched us/what's up with the inventory allocations/why am I being skimmed 13.3%?).
> 
> ...



On #2-Not sure if I got what you are saying in #2 correct but keep in mind that I spoke to Marriott (checked with them twice) if you redeem your home week for points and then use those points to book a week at a another resort.  The week you receive cannot be depoisted with II.


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## JimIg23 (Jul 4, 2010)

I hope we get Sticky on how many tuggers are joining the program and how many are not.


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## GregT (Jul 4, 2010)

RBERR1 said:


> On #2-Not sure if I got what you are saying in #2 correct but keep in mind that I spoke to Marriott (checked with them twice) if you redeem your home week for points and then use those points to book a week at a another resort.  The week you receive cannot be depoisted with II.



Sorry, let me try again -- let's say I own two Marriott weeks -- one worth 4,500 points, the other worth XX, which I don't redeem for points.

I take the 4,500 points, and book a reservation for 7 days somewhere, say Surfwatch the week of July 16th.

I simultaneously take the other week, reserve something in the legacy manner, deposit it, and submit a request for Surfwatch the week of July 16th (same week).

As long as the II trade request hits by April 15th (60+ days in advance), I can cancel the points reservation, get my 4,500 points back and go on my now traded week via II.

I now have 4,500 points -- I need to book another reservation, or bank them for subsequent year use.

That's what I was trying to say.  Thanks!


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## csalter2 (Jul 4, 2010)

*Now We're Talking*

This is productive. 

JimIg23, I had done this earlier for my own situation and noticed that even with my Ko Olina 2bdrm (4025) I could not get a full 2 bdroom at all resorts in the Marriott system, particularly at the Hawaii resorts. Also, as I went through the different properties, I did not realize there were so many Marriotts with *only* two bedrooms. However, with some flexibility one can maximize this points system and get more. First, I don't need two bedrooms anymore since my kids are gone and school schedules won't dictate my vacation schedule anymore. After going on a cruise and staying at Beachplace Towers last December. I have come to understand the joys and advantages to traveling off peak with my wife. I absolutely love it.  I worried about having that additional bedroomroom. Before the points system, I used to wonder if I was going to rent or deposit to II, which for me is additional work. Now, I have discovered that I can save points for a year and have 8050 points and spread them out to get maybe four or five weeks by using lower seasons and by using one bedrooms instead of two.  With no kids and being able to fly for less during off seasons make savings substantial. In addition, one can borrow from the year ahead as well, so I could have 12,075 to play with if I wanted to have a super year. We can do this without extra maintenance fees. *I do not intend on buying any more points.* I am not too worried about a 13 month advantage at this time. at $10/point there will not be many *new* Premier plus owners or even premier owners. 

After a careful review of this new point system, I plan on enrolling. There is nothing to lose since we keep our deed and use the points system when we want to.  No, I don't like not being able to trade into another Marriott 2bdroom in Hawaii for mine, but I will look for other alternatives like SFX or ownertrades.com. I am sure a Ko Olina 2bdrm is worth something on the exchange market.


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## csalter2 (Jul 4, 2010)

*Some examples...*

Just to help those who are figuring how can one get so many weeks. Let me show you this. 

Desert Springs I at       1400 points *2 weeks*
Desert Springs II at      1225 points *3 weeks*
Shadow Ridge at          1275 points *3 weeks*
Canyon Villas at           1225 points *3 weeks*
BeachPlace Towers at   1175 points *3 weeks*
Lakeshore at               1675 points *2 weeks*
Grand Vista at             1675 points *2 weeks*
Harbor Lake at             1175 points *3 weeks*
These are one bedrooms and not always at the worst time. Lots of us Californians go to the Desert during the summer especially for July 4th weekend. It really isn't that bad. As you can see I can get 2 or three weeks with one year's worth of points. These are 7 day stays, I would still have points left over to carry over to the following year.

I have been to Florida at all times of year and the weather is not that bad in December, November or even during hurricane season. 

I am not even going to bring up the studios, because then I could extend even more. I could do one studio week and then wash my clothes the next week in a one bedroom. Or I could do two studio weeks and then a one bedroom. It is fun to think of the possibilities. For example, a studio week in Harbour Lake in May is worth 775 points so one could do 2 weeks in a studio and then 2 weeks in a one bedroom. That's four weeks with 125 points left to carry into the next year. 

Something to think about.


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## JimIg23 (Jul 5, 2010)

A big part of it is going during the months you want to go, the places you like to go, the view you would like (or can live it), and in a unit you want to be in.  Getting those weeks and not really wanting to go there will defeat the purpose.  

However, going Sun-Fri, off seasons, garden views, they can help extend points.  You just have to be happy doing it.  

I did July 4th in Shadow Ridge a few years back.  It was 108.  Hot, but a nice place.  Next time I want to go to Palm Desert during Spring Break!


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## csalter2 (Jul 5, 2010)

*Flexibility*



JimIg23 said:


> A big part of it is going during the months you want to go, the places you like to go, the view you would like (or can live it), and in a unit you want to be in.  Getting those weeks and not really wanting to go there will defeat the purpose.
> 
> However, going Sun-Fri, off seasons, garden views, they can help extend points.  You just have to be happy doing it.
> 
> I did July 4th in Shadow Ridge a few years back.  It was 108.  Hot, but a nice place.  Next time I want to go to Palm Desert during Spring Break!



I did not say Palm Desert wasn't hot during summer, but we had fun in the pools and barbecuing. We were able to see the fireworks from our balcony. The summer is not the only low point time in Palm Desert.  The key is flexibility. Since I can go when I want and avoid the crowds at the pools and jacuzzis and the unsupervised kids. That's good enough for me. Now I have a real vacation where I can have truly enjoy. 

Also, I compare 7 days to 7days for value, but I have found that particularly when I have to fly I like more than a 7 day vacation.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

RBERR1 said:


> On #2-Not sure if I got what you are saying in #2 correct but keep in mind that I spoke to Marriott (checked with them twice) if you redeem your home week for points and then use those points to book a week at a another resort.  The week you receive cannot be depoisted with II.



No but you can put the week up in RedWeek and get their Points and anything you lock in there can be rented for cash.

I must admit, though, I've not checked RedWeek lately for rules and if they are still alive in their Point program.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

*Week - point - week*

I should imagine that during the 1st year using the new Point program is going to be rough - no availability.

My suggestion is to just bank the Points forward by July 1, 2011 and get ready for all kinds of slight-of-hand in 2012.

I could be wrong but that's my gut feeling.  By then folks will be renting Points and that opens a whole new way to exploit this system.

But one of the coolest ways to exploit this system is if you have other timeshares and II exchanges and need just 1 night to bridge the gap of a Saturday check-in to a Sunday check-in - at 10 months out ALL Point accounts can reserve 1 day stays at the Marriott - no cleaning fees.

So you might guess what a night or two would cost you in Points and roll everything else to 2012 and have the Motel-Marriott ready to bridge gaps.

Trust me, inventory is going to be a nightmare in 2011.  These are pre-construction prices folks just like we got for a new Marriott resort.  They weren't ready for years either.

P.S.
Be on the lookout for cheap Points for rent in Sep of 2011 when folks realize they are about to lose their unused 2011 Points and can't find something in the Explorer Clubs and the holidays prevent weekend usage.  Those folks will want to get cash for their Points - so plan for some great weekend getaways starting in Sep of 2011.

P.P.S.
Also be on the look out for owners who have Points in the Holding Account and are looking for folks who want to have a weekend get-a-way and their Points can lock in the weekend and they gift the reservation to you and you PayPal them for it or you exchange current usage year Points into their account.

We haven't even begun to exploit this puppy....

P.S.
Here's a post on getting around the various ownership levels - click here.


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## csalter2 (Jul 5, 2010)

*That's the Plan Perry M.*



PerryM said:


> I should imagine that during the 1st year using the new Point program is going to be rough - no availability.
> 
> My suggestion is to just bank the Points forward by July 1, 2011 and get ready for all kinds of slight-of-hand in 2012.
> 
> ...



Yes, Perry M. I am with you on utilizing other points system to supplement Marriott. I had planned on banking points in Marriott's system so that I could always have maximum flexibility. In addition, I plan to wrap Marriott's weeks/point with DRI points to take best advantage of their Sunday through Thursday rates. I will have to review DRI's weekends as they charge higher for Friday and Saturday as well.


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## ldanna (Jul 5, 2010)

GregT said:


> 5) Is there a high TDI property that you can acquire via (future plummeting) resale and piggyback your existing week reservation?  Example:  I have fixed Week 24/25 at MOC -- is there a resale I can buy (Legends Edge/HHI) that has a strong Week 26 trading value?  Can I buy it at resale and create a tiger trader (via traditional II trading)?  This is easier for fixed week owners than floating
> 5a.  If Marriott is as inventory depleted at some of the sold out resorts, perhaps they will need whatever it is that we are trading in II, and they'll match the trade?
> 
> Greg



Greg, I loved this part. Suply and Demand. If you request first and you have something Marriott really wants (just a regular resale week you bought on eBay), you might end up with an spetacular trade, you will doble or triple your week if you compare points value.


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## Bunk (Jul 5, 2010)

Could somebody please explain what it means to be a tiger trader.  Thank you.


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## PerryM (Jul 5, 2010)

*Tony the tiger...*



Bunk said:


> Could somebody please explain what it means to be a tiger trader.  Thank you.



The Tiger is in your eye.

To me the best timeshare to be used with II and RCI is WorldMark, others have their Tigers for other reasons.

For WM you need just a 6,000 Point (Credit) account which needs 10,000 Points for a Red 2BR II exchange into ANY II resort at ANY time of the year.

That 6,000 Point account costs 50 cents or less to buy a Point and a MF of 6 cents per year.  You can bank, borrow, and rent Points from other owners.

With that 6,000 Point account I can instantly set up 10+ on going searches 15 months out in II and snap up developer dumped inventory before Marriott owners get their usage at 13 months.

I can put up 3bedroom units for all those 10+ searches and if I get an exchange for a 1bedroom I'm only charged 9,000 Points.  I search with much higher trading power that what I actually turn in.

At 59-day I only need 4,000 Points but still search with a 3BR and the on-going searches started outside the 59-day window carry through and I don't have to search daily/hourly.

I can't get inside the 24-day window at Marriott but as soon as it leaves its mine if I want it.

Anyway that's what I call a Tiger in your tank...


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## RBERR1 (Jul 5, 2010)

GregT said:


> Sorry, let me try again -- let's say I own two Marriott weeks -- one worth 4,500 points, the other worth XX, which I don't redeem for points.
> 
> I take the 4,500 points, and book a reservation for 7 days somewhere, say Surfwatch the week of July 16th.
> 
> ...



Now I understand what you meant.  That sounds like a good strategy.


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## GregT (Jul 13, 2010)

All, I'm bumping this back up because it has the potential to be a good thread, and other threads have expressed interest in productive thoughts on how to maximize the system.   I repeat my disclaimer in Post #1 (I hate the skim, Thx Marriott, yada yada yada).

A couple of other possibilities have occurred to me that are interesting:

1) Where are the "holes" in the points schedule?  

As an example, my kids (and they are really cute) go to Catholic School and Easter 2012 is April 8 and they are out the following week.  Marriott has done a pretty solid job of premium pricing easter week at most locations, but for some reason St. Kitts and Frenchman's Cove are *lower *points than even normal (but Aruba is premium?).  For those families that want to go to MSK or MFC or easter break, that's an opportunity to stretch points.   I'm sure Marriott will catch this in 2013 and beyond, so Catholics should go to the Caribbean in 2011/2012.   

2) Can you use the II points chart to book back into Marriott properties?

There is great confusion on whether or not you can use points to book back into a Marriott property (using the II points chart).  The current advice back from VOA's is that you can *not *(ie, give 3,000 points to Interval International to book a 2BR in a TDI 90-110 season, but then book back into Ko Olina in a  TDI 90-110 week, that should have cost you 4,050 or 4,925 points if booked from Marriott).   I would like to test this one day to confirm, because that would be useful.  I know that both HGVC and Wyndham used to (still can?) be able to do this and it was a favorite trick of the ownership.

3) If I have two studies, can I trick II to let me "Request Up"?  

This one is bizarre, so I apologize in advance, but bear with me.   Let's say you have two studios (like I do) but you really want a 1BR but can't figure out how to Request Up to get a 1BR in Ko Olina and you're too stubborn (like I am) to use Marriott points program to get it.  

I know I have to request my same unit size when putting in a request (Studio's) but I also know II will give me the bigger unit if I have the trade power and my unit size isn't available.  So, I'm going to try depositing my Week 24 Studio (TDI 130) and request a Week 4 (TDI 100) Studio at Ko Olina.   At the same time, I'll deposit my Week 25 Studio (TDI 140 -- higher power) and request a Week 4 (TDI 100) Studio at Ko Olina -- the exact same trade.   I'm _hoping _that somewhere a Ko Olina owner locks off and deposits both the Week 4 Studio AND the 1BR -- and both of my requests hit on the same day.  Since my II trades are now free, I don't mind two hits (I may actually then cancel the Studio and just keep the 1BR).  Complicated longshot, I know, but theoretically possible.

4) Study TDI charts carefully.   

I am now confident that if I am patient my Week 25 Studio (TDI 140 -- worth 2,250 points on the II points chart) will eventually get me a late October 2BR (TDI 85 -- worth 2,250 points on the II points chart) in Frenchman's Cove or St. Kitts.  For the first time, we understand how II may look at relative trading value.  And a prime Studio may be considered like-for-like to a Silver 2BR, versus before I was speculating that it was.

All, some of these are crazy, I know, but I'm scratching my head to find the loopholes in the system and to avoid like heck simply using the points system as Marriott set up (isn't that sad?) because I do believe we are receiving discounted points for our week but would be reserving at full price.  

I also firmly believe a rental market for points will emerge to get that 150-300 points that you sure wish you had.

I also believe a FlexChange will come and that we will be able to get good last minute travel on points, ideally rented points and not skimmed points.

Best to all,

Greg


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## Cindala (Jul 13, 2010)

GregT said:


> Okay all, acknowledging that I'm the original hater of the Skim (and still *hate *it), I want to open a thread specifically dedicated to stretching points.



Can we take this to mean that you will be joining?


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## pwrshift (Jul 13, 2010)

Greg .. Points are all new to many of us.  Could you explain just how you rent points?

My 6 weeks net out about 17,000 points if I enrolled them all.  How would you spend those points, keeping in mind my annual MF's total about $6,000.

Just so you know: Not counting AC's from II with lockoff splits possible on 4 of my 6 weeks and rarely a need for a 2nd bedroom, I could split and book 10 weeks a year.  Just about always when trading my lockoff studios through II netted me a 1 or 2 bdrm suite in my home resorts (rarely do I trade to other resorts in recent years).  

I'm still having great difficulty with any part of the new program and will probably stay outside just the way I am now, but want to look at all options before deciding for sure...so that's why I'd like to see creative ways to use the system if I were to join.

Brian


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## dioxide45 (Jul 13, 2010)

gailo said:


> Is it possible to use part of your points and bank the rest. If I join I would only use a few of my Ocean Pointe points (wk 7 reserved 2010) . Rent MFC 2010. I would save up for a big trip June 2012 (40th Anniversary). I would like to combine 2 -300 with the 800 for a trip. Bank the rest - if possible, what does that involve?



The docs are not very clear on this. My interpretation is that you have to bank an all points from that are available for a given week. You can't just keep carrying over an extra 100 points each year until 10 years down the road you have 1000 spend. It appears that you can borrow a portion of future years points or all of them.

I did notice that there is a provision that one may have to pay the future MF in to an escrow account when borrowing points from future years. This is different from how Marriott works now with II in that you don't pay the fees until due. This means I have my 2011 weeks on deposit with II but haven't paid the MF on them yet.


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## GregT (Jul 14, 2010)

pwrshift said:


> Greg .. Points are all new to many of us.  Could you explain just how you rent points?
> 
> My 6 weeks net out about 17,000 points if I enrolled them all.  How would you spend those points, keeping in mind my annual MF's total about $6,000.
> 
> ...



Brian, nice work!  You have a pretty good arrangement with your existing trades -- the new system may not work for you for booking purposes, but still worth considering if you would save fees.

With respect to renting points, this may be the thing most powerful about the Marriott system.  I expect that over time, you will be able to rent points from other owners who have more than they can utilize (or who's points will expire, or who have unexpected cancelations).   Marriott allows you to transfer points from one owner to another without cost or penalty. 

This permits one owner who has excess points for a given year, to transfer (or rent for cash) those one-time/single use points to another owner, who is short points for that same given year.  This is a financial transaction completely independent of the points-based provider, but is very important.  HGVC and Wyndham do NOT allow points transfer between owners, Worldmark and Marriott do permit transfers.  

As an example, I am sponsoring a family reunion in Lake Tahoe in 2011 that required the booking of three 2BR units, requiring 30,000 in WM points (in Worldmark, you need 10,000 Worldmark points for a 2BR).  I did not have that number of points, however I was able to rent (easily) the needed points from another WM owner (via WMowners.com – I’m sure a similar website will develop to allow rental of Marriott points).  It cost me $1,600 to rent the WM points needed for 3 2BR units, not that much higher than the core MFs.  I booked three 2BR’s 12 months prior to check-in and I never even owned the points in the first place.  

When Wyndham (not Worldmark) took away the ability to transfer points, many owners were unhappy (as some believe it is easier to rent points then actually own them).  Marriott’s ability to transfer points is an important feature, not to be minimized.  Many Marriott owners studying the  points system may find they are short the points needed to do what they want to maximize the system, and will consider purchasing points from Marriott.  They should be aware of the alternative of renting points (assuming such a rental market develops – it does NOT today as the points system is so new, only the capability to transfer points exists). 

I hope this is helpful -- good luck with your consideration!

Best,

Greg


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## taffy19 (Jul 14, 2010)

GregT said:


> Brian, nice work! You have a pretty good arrangement with your existing trades -- the new system may not work for you for booking purposes, but still worth considering if you would save fees.
> 
> With respect to renting points, this may be the thing most powerful about the Marriott system. I expect that over time, you will be able to rent points from other owners who have more than they can utilize (or who's points will expire, or who have unexpected cancelations). Marriott allows you to transfer points from one owner to another without cost or penalty.
> 
> ...


Do you believe that they will let you keep this feature if too many people start using this?  Wyndham stopped the rental program as they call it an abuse of the system.  The big developers are in the business to sell points and you will always be short of points because the new resorts will have more points allocated right from the start so you will not have enough points to visit there either nor can the Legacy week owners, if they do not enroll.  I see them increasing the fees too once enough people have enrolled.

You are at their mercy once you are in the new exchange program or when you are a new points buyer too.  They will keep "enhancing" the program in their favor and it's not only the Marriott, it is every big developer today because you are under their thumb with these new "enhanced" programs. :hysterical:  I got the big envelope in the mail today.  It's a very slick brochure.  I have to ask my neighbors what they think of it.  They have never exchanged yet nor have our friends but they lock-off their unit every year.


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## WINSLOW (Jul 14, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> The docs are not very clear on this. My interpretation is that *you have to bank an all points from that are available for a given week*. You can't just keep carrying over an extra 100 points each year until 10 years down the road you have 1000 spend.



Is this true?  You can't just roll over an unused portion of points into the next use year?  How can you ever trade up?  There would be alot of unused expired points for everyone at the end of a given year.

Atleast the way DVC is, you bank excess points into the next use year, that year you use the bank points first and if there are some left over for that use year you can bank those to the following use year, and so on.  So eventually you might have atleast as many points as you own yearly to bank.

If this is true, this system is sounding worst every day.


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## Dave M (Jul 14, 2010)

You are both correct, although dioxide45's example could be worded a bit differently to make it more clear. Assume you get 4,000 points for your week and that you elect points every year. 

If you use 3,000 points in year 1, you can bank (roll over) the remaining 1,000 points to year 2, giving you 5,000 points (1,000 from year 1 + 4,000 for year 2) to use in year 2. If you use only 2,700 points in year 2, you can roll over 2,300 points (5,000 - 2,700) to year 3. And so on. However, the total number of points rolled over to a year can never exceed the number of points (4,000) associated with a particular week.  

What is happening in the example is that the first points considered used in any year are the points rolled over from the previous year. Thus, any points rolled over to a later year (maximum of 4,000 in this example) are considered to be current year points.


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## siberiavol (Jul 14, 2010)

Greg and others

I know II talks about TDI related to points but that was only one factor in getting trades under the old system. In Orlando there are numerous timeshares. They would all have the same TDI for a given date. They never have traded the same. Quality of the resort seemed to be  of equal or greater importance.

How is the difference in quality figured in in trading points in II? If it is not it seems II will have two different trading approaches within the same Marriott account.

By the way, will the new II account show any weeks deposited along side any points deposited? If so then there would be two currencies in the same account?


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## markbernstein (Jul 14, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> The docs are not very clear on this. My interpretation is that you have to bank an all points from that are available for a given week. You can't just keep carrying over an extra 100 points each year until 10 years down the road you have 1000 spend. It appears that you can borrow a portion of future years points or all of them.



I've chatted with Marriott reps on this point.  To answer gailo's original question, yes, you can trade your week for points, make a reservation that uses part of those points, and bank the rest into the following year.  But while I haven't asked this specifically, I don't think you can extend the banking.  In other words, if I bank some of my 2011 points into 2012, I have to use them in 2012.  I can't bank them again into 2013.

Also, I've had a rep tell me that I _don't_ have the option of trading those partial points for Marriott Rewards points.  That's too bad, and I think I'm going to write and suggest they offer that option.  Seems to me it would be easy to implement.


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## GregT (Jul 14, 2010)

siberiavol said:


> Greg and others
> 
> I know II talks about TDI related to points but that was only one factor in getting trades under the old system. In Orlando there are numerous timeshares. They would all have the same TDI for a given date. They never have traded the same. Quality of the resort seemed to be  of equal or greater importance.
> 
> ...



I agree with you that Quality of resort is a variable, arguably an important variable.  Unfortunately, the II point chart doesn't give us any guidance on the relative Quality.  The Marriott points chart may be an indicator of the relative Quality, but II may have different view.



iconnections said:


> Do you believe that they will let you keep this feature if too many people start using this?  Wyndham stopped the rental program as they call it an abuse of the system.  The big developers are in the business to sell points and you will always be short of points because the new resorts will have more points allocated right from the start so you will not have enough points to visit there either nor can the Legacy week owners, if they do not enroll.  I see them increasing the fees too once enough people have enrolled.



Emmy, this will be a great (painful?) topic of discussion down the road.  Will Marriott become even more like Wyndham, and keep taking things away, or will they be fair and balanced and leave features in place.  Skimming was a huge blow to my trust in Marriott, and they may very well take it away.  But Wyndham left it in place for many years, so hopefully we can utilize it while it's in place.   As another poster indicated, it may take years for a vibrant market to develop, so still alot to be learned on this front.

All the best,

Greg


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## m61376 (Jul 14, 2010)

What happens if in June you roll your 2011 points over for 2012, but then decide you want to use them in 2011? Can you borrow them back?


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## GregT (Jul 14, 2010)

m61376 said:


> What happens if in June you roll your 2011 points over for 2012, but then decide you want to use them in 2011? Can you borrow them back?




My understanding is that once you bank them into 2012 you can not pull them back into 2011 usage.

You could however, borrow some of your 2012 points into 2011 and use them for that 2011 reservation.   However, now you've committed your 2012 Weeks Usage into a 2012 Points Usage.   May or may not be a problem.

Thanks,

Greg


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## travelplanner70 (Jul 14, 2010)

Does anyone know if, as a legacy owner, I would put my lock-off into the points and keep my master bedroom side to deposit into I.I. or just rent it out myself?

The more I read, the more confused I get!


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## taffy19 (Jul 14, 2010)

travelplanner70 said:


> Does anyone know if, as a legacy owner, I would put my lock-off into the points and keep my master bedroom side to deposit into I.I. or just rent it out myself?
> 
> The more I read, the more confused I get!


That is a question I asked too.  If you use points, you have to deposit the whole unit.


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## travelplanner70 (Jul 14, 2010)

Thanks, I thought so.


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## BocaBoy (Jul 18, 2010)

Two points after reading this thread:

1) Perry said he thought a good source of points from other members would be those that have points in their holding account about to expire.  This will not work, because the documents clearly state that points in  a Holding Account cannot be transferred to other members.

2) I do not find it surprising at all that the points for a Ko Olina owner (and I am one) are not sufficient to book a similar week at all the other Hawaii resorts.  This is especially true of Maui, which is MUCH harder to get into and which cost 50% more to buy.  And with the new Naia Tower at Ko Olina, it has a lot of unused availability that needs to be worked off.


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## GregT (Jul 18, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Two points after reading this thread:
> 
> 1) Perry said he thought a good source of points from other members would be those that have points in their holding account about to expire.  This will not work, because the documents clearly state that points in  a Holding Account cannot be transferred to other members.
> .



To clarify, Perry's post said to find someone who has Holding Account points  and have them make a reservation in your name, that you rent from them.  It is agreed that Holding Account points can't be transferred.

This approach is complicated, but we are all simply looking for alternatives to make the most of the system and all creative ideas are appreciated.

Best to all,

Greg


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## pipet (Jul 18, 2010)

GregT said:


> 2) Can you use the II points chart to book back into Marriott properties?
> 
> There is great confusion on whether or not you can use points to book back into a Marriott property (using the II points chart).  The current advice back from VOA's is that you can *not *(ie, give 3,000 points to Interval International to book a 2BR in a TDI 90-110 season, but then book back into Ko Olina in a  TDI 90-110 week, that should have cost you 4,050 or 4,925 points if booked from Marriott).   I would like to test this one day to confirm, because that would be useful.  I know that both HGVC and Wyndham used to (still can?) be able to do this and it was a favorite trick of the ownership.



This idea of this is also pretty intriguing to me, but I don't see how they would ever allow it.  I wonder if you could put in your request with the Marriott reps, and then later go directly to your II page and change the request by adding in Marriott resorts?  Hmmm...  This would make the program look a lot more shiny!

This would be a lovely way to sneak around the system if allowed (which is why I don't think it will be).  The highest demand 2BR week in Maui is only 4500 pts, whereas with Marriott that would be 5675-6475pts.  Lower demand weeks would only be 3000 pts (all assume no view since with II).  That's a massive savings in points.  Within the rules for sure, I guess you could request the Westin Maui, pay for the higher exchange fee, and only pay 3000-4500 pts.  Of course, it still has to be available!

This also makes some resorts, like summer Legends Edge, with a high TDI at II, a bargain in the Marriott system.



BocaBoy said:


> 2) I do not find it surprising at all that the points for a Ko Olina owner (and I am one) are not sufficient to book a similar week at all the other Hawaii resorts.  This is especially true of Maui, which is MUCH harder to get into and which cost 50% more to buy.


  I believe this is true of the newer bldgs (MM1), but is it the case with MOC which also costs significantly more points?  I'm pretty sure when we bought (Waiohai 2002), the price differential was not that significant.  I definitely don't recall a nearly 8K difference for the same view category (which is what I would expect based on points allotted).  And honestly, are the Ko Olina & Waiohai resorts that much worse than MOC to prevent inter-island exchanges?  While I love the grounds at MOC, I find the lack of kitchen a real inconvenience.  I will agree the grounds are a little more upscale at MOC, and I like the pool better, but I also think the pool at Kauai Beach Club is pretty fabulous, too, and their grounds are very plush.  I haven't made it over to Ko Olina yet so I can't make a comparison there, but I don't feel like I step up or down when I go to Waiohai vs MOC - just different.  If I were a Maui owner, I'd be glad to be top dog in the system, but I would feel bad for people who chose to buy at other islands!


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## Quilter (Jul 23, 2010)

iconnections said:


> Do you believe that they will let you keep this feature if too many people start using this?  Wyndham stopped the rental program as they call it an abuse of the system.  The big developers are in the business to sell points and you will always be short of points because the new resorts will have more points allocated right from the start so you will not have enough points to visit there either nor can the Legacy week owners, if they do not enroll.  I see them increasing the fees too once enough people have enrolled.
> 
> You are at their mercy once you are in the new exchange program or when you are a new points buyer too.  They will keep "enhancing" the program in their favor and it's not only the Marriott, it is every big developer today because you are under their thumb with these new "enhanced" programs. :hysterical:  I got the big envelope in the mail today.  It's a very slick brochure.  I have to ask my neighbors what they think of it.  They have never exchanged yet nor have our friends but they lock-off their unit every year.



In the "old" system Marriott was in the business of selling weeks but they still let owners rent their weeks however they could.   How would it be any different for owners to be renting their own points?  Some people actually find it a reason to buy into the timeshare system by having the added option to rent their weeks (or points) whenever they have more than they can use.  Marriott sales people probably wouldn't use that as a regular sales pitch but there are times the outside market can be a boost to developer sales.


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## GregT (Aug 6, 2010)

All,

Hello again -- same concept of how to stretch points, and one way is "view stretching".

As an example, for anyone who is considering visiting MOC (and more specifically, Lahaina/Napili Villas), I encourage you to consider the Mountain/Garden View category.

As the attached file shows, on the South Side, there are a number of floors (including high floors) that have unobstructed southern views.   The plan was for Hyatt to build a timeshare there, but it never got built due to the economy -- resulting in beautiful southern views.   The exact unit on the North Side is often an Ocean View category unit.

Accordingly, if you book M/G view category, you may get an excellent view.  Even the north side lower units have nice pool views and can peak through to the ocean -- this may be an opportunity to get a nice unit at a lower point price.

If you have a favorite property and you are familiar with a location that has a superior points value, please post it.  Thanks!

Good luck to all,

Greg

edited: file didn't upload  -- too big.....I will try to add a link....sorry....


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## kedler (Aug 6, 2010)

gailo said:


> Is it possible to use part of your points and bank the rest. If I join I would only use a few of my Ocean Pointe points (wk 7 reserved 2010) . Rent MFC 2010. I would save up for a big trip June 2012 (40th Anniversary). I would like to combine 2 -300 with the 800 for a trip. Bank the rest - if possible, what does that involve?


I have points tied up in waitlist requests right now but I had 725 left over points and all VOAs a asked agreed that I can use or bank them. We've choosen to use most of them for a one night anniversary reservation at Fairway but once the waitlist comes threw I may have other points remaining to bank.


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## seema (Sep 4, 2010)

Maybe this has been answered, but I will ask again.

I am an owner of Diamond Resorts International points.

If I want to book an internal DRI week, or exchange through II - and I want to do it less than 60 days in advance of the first day of the reservation, I only need 1/2 the points required for bookings with a greater advanced period.

Does one get a discount in terms of number of points required, by booking with Marriott Destination points - either internally or through II - less than 60 days in advance?


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## GregT (Sep 4, 2010)

seema said:


> Maybe this has been answered, but I will ask again.
> 
> I am an owner of Diamond Resorts International points.
> 
> ...



At the moment, there is no ability to obtain a discount in number of points required to book a reservation (with Marriott Destination points).

We've been told that something similar to FlexChange will be implemented (eventually) -- and Marriott Asia Pacific has a FlexChange feature that requires approx 30% of the points otherwise required -- but not yet in the current program.

And, it's not yet clear if the discounted points (once they are available) will be only for II trades last minute, or if they will also be able to access to the upcoming Points Inventory -- which would be much more interesting.  However, I suspect Marriott wants to rent those extra rooms for their own profit, so it will likely be an II only discount.

We will see -- thanks!


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## seema (Sep 4, 2010)

I own a Ko Olina Ocean View 2 bedroom week (weeks 1-50).

Most of the other Marriott resorts allow me to book a whole week (most seasons at most resorts, most of them the best view as well) with less points than I can get by depositing my week (4950) with Marriott. So I woud use the points. It would cost me more to exchange via II - where I can only exchange week for week - with a like for like unit (ie 2 bedroom for a less than 2 bedroom exchange).

I would try to exchange my week for a Maui week  - week for week through II (or perhaps through the Marriott vacation advisor) - that would be cheaper than trying to borrow points from another year, or rent points from someone else, for a simple points exchange.

I would have to figure out if Kaui is cheaper or more expensive to exchange via points or via weeks - it does depend upon the view, and the time of year that I would request for the week.


There are some additional nuances to II exchanges:

i) a) if I ask for my 2 bedroom week to be locked off - and then I ask my 1 bedroom portion (or perhaps my studio portion) to be exchanged with that resort which has only a 2 bedroom option.

b) one may be able to exchange from a lower size unit (after the studio/efficiency is locked off from the 1 bedroom part of the unit) to a higher size unit (in those resorts which have units of all sizes) on-line (but not over the phone) - as Ko Olina Beach Club has a higher trading power than most other MVCI, except for the others in Hawaii. 

ii) I may get an accomodation certificate for my week (which may get me another week to stay at a Marriott).


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## GregT (Jan 12, 2012)

All,

I'm posting here as this thread is part of the sticky and I want to add Puck's booking trick that he reported recently.  The relevant threads are linked at the bottom.

Best,

Greg

Purpose of the booking trick:  Take advantage of ability for Premier and Premier Plus owners to book reservations close to check-in at discounted points values (20% off the points required).   

An owner can replace an existing points reservation with the identical reservation and get back the 20% in points (which are restricted points) -- see the original threads for the discussions.

Process:

Step 1: See if a new reservation is available within the time period (14 days premiere plus, 7 days premiere) prior to arrival.

Step 2: Book a hold reservation for the new reservation. 

Step 3: Cancel the existing reservation- Points go into penalty box (GT edit: holding account that has usage restrictions)

Step 4: Fill the hold reservation with penalty box points.

Original threads:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161701

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162514


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