# Hyatt excercises ROFR



## Christinern (Jun 13, 2007)

I just got a call stating that the Hyatt Sunset Harbor, week 51, I purchased for $19000.00 is being bought back by Hyatt.

I am disappointed, but at the same time happy?!
Disappointed that I did not get a steal, & glad to know that Hyatt does excercise their ROFR, which in turn makes their vacation club more valuable. 

So, here I go again hunting for the 'DEAL' !!!
-------------Christine


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## timeos2 (Jun 13, 2007)

*ROFR is bad business for the owners, hasn't changed yet*



Christinern said:


> I just got a call stating that the Hyatt Sunset Harbor, week 51, I purchased for $19000.00 is being bought back by Hyatt.
> 
> I am disappointed, but at the same time happy?!
> Disappointed that I did not get a steal, & glad to know that Hyatt does excercise their ROFR, which in turn makes their vacation club more valuable.
> ...



And so there is the total fallacy of the ROFR and so called better value. You just got snookered out of a deal on a property you wanted and now, if you still decide to buy there, will pay more than the willing seller was ready to take. Does that mean they get more? No. They get the $1900 you SHOULD have purchased the time for and Hilton gets the week - only to resell again - for the $19000. Now you pay more, the next buyer pays more and the original seller got only the $19000 they were asking. So how exactly did the property get to be "more valuable" out of that?  

As has been stated over and over, yet continues to be denied by those with developer blinders on, the only winner in a ROFR situation is the developer. And only as long as they feel like exercising it will the uncertainty and artificially propped up price be around. Tomorrow it may be gone and if you paid the premium to cover ROFR then, just like every other timeshare, you will be on the short end when you go to sell.  ROFR does not and cannot protect buyers and sellers but it sure can make a sweet deal even sweeter for the developers. How anyone can say different boggles the mind. I guess they won't see the truth until their turn to sell comes around and then it's far too late. For those who think ahead it is good advice to avoid any resort that has a ROFR in the sales agreement.  

Stay tuned for the denials.


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 13, 2007)

*R.O.F.R ?  Or R.O.F.L. ?*




Christinern said:


> Hyatt Sunset Harbor, week 51, I purchased for $19000.00 is being bought back by Hyatt.


Shucks, I wouldn't pay $19*,*000*.*00 for a _new_ timeshare, much less pay that much for a "_used_ " 1 (resale).  

If Hyatt is pulling ROFR on a $19*,*000 resale timeshare, how much does Hyatt get for'm when they persuade somebody to pay full freight ?  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## bruwery (Jun 13, 2007)

Christinern said:


> I just got a call stating that the Hyatt Sunset Harbor, week 51, I purchased for $19000.00 is being bought back by Hyatt.
> 
> I am disappointed, but at the same time happy?!
> Disappointed that I did not get a steal, & glad to know that Hyatt does excercise their ROFR, which in turn makes their vacation club more valuable.
> ...



Congratulations on saving $19,000!!  Other than that, I don't see anything about which to be happy in this scenario.

John is right - ROFR is a bad deal for everyone but the developer.  I guess if Hyatt is still exercising it when you flip the property, there's a chance it could work out for you, but if they cease the practice during your ownership, you take a bath - thereby defeating the entire point of buying resale.

If this property is worth $19,000 to you, don't buy it for more than $19,000 simply because the developer has created an artificial floor.

Price Support = Bad.  The ROFR has made the resort less valuable by shrinking the pool of prospective buyers.

Onward and upward,

Mark


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## Floridaski (Jun 13, 2007)

*Op Try Again !!!!*

Well,
I can understand why everyone hates ROFR - but I am a Hyatt owner and I have to ENCOURAGE the OP to try again. 

There are very few timeshares out there that warrant a $19,000 dollar investment - but Hyatt week 51 at Sunset Harbor DOES warrant that kind of dollar.  There are not many Hyatt weeks 51 or 52 that go up for sale in Key West and that is the reason Hyatt exercised ROFR.  As any Hyatt owner knows this is part of the contract, the contract that we entered into with free will.  

I hope she finds another week and yes she will more then likely have to pay more the 19,000 - but if you have never stayed at a Hyatt timeshare then you may need to pause before hitting the reply button.  We do not regret our purchase in way, Hyatt IMO runs one of the best timeshare companies in the World.  The only one better is Four Seasons - try finding a Four Seasons week 51 for $19,000!

OP - Good luck and try again, perhaps go for week 1-12 for 2000 points.  It will stand a better chance of passing ROFR.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 13, 2007)

You only hate ROFR if you're a buyer. It's great if you're the seller. The seller in this case will still recieve their $19,000 or what the market will bear (supply and demand still work). If there are no sellers or not enough sellers willing to pay $19,000 for this particular week at this particular resort, the sales price will still be lower and Hyatt (not Hilton) will still buy the week back. If buyers really want the week and are willing to pay more, then the price point will go higher. 

Yes it's a good deal for the developer who will in turn resell that unit for developer prices and make a profit on it again. But again, that's the free market system at work. Someone has the product at that price and someone is willing to pay that price. Just because many of us are low ball bidders does not mean that there are outlets to sell a timeshare for a much higher price.

ROFR is good for both the developer and the seller but is a bad thing for those who want to purchase timeshares for less than $1,000 no matter where the location might be. Think of it this way, ROFR is offsetting the impact of the postcard companies that are dumping inventory onto E-bay.

To the OP,

Sorry you lost your sale. Many here would never think of paying over a few thousand for a timeshare but, they may not desire the unit location or resort location that you desire. Just like some are happy paying less than $100/night for a hotel room while others don't mind spending >$200/night for a hotel room. Location and quality sometimes mean more to others the inexpensive and not so great location.


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## Bill4728 (Jun 13, 2007)

You'd never see a TS, which has a known policy of using ROFR to take back super low priced TS, selling for ridiculously low prices.  Isn't there something just wrong about TS which sell ( especially one still in sales ) for tens of thousands of dollars by the developer and being bought on E-bay for <$1,000?  Doesn't ROFR makes that go away.


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## timeos2 (Jun 13, 2007)

*If ROFR was always used it might help some but its not*



Bill4728 said:


> You'd never see a TS, which has a known policy of using ROFR to take back super low priced TS, selling for ridiculously low prices.  Isn't there something just wrong about TS which sell ( especially one still in sales ) for tens of thousands of dollars by the developer and being bought on E-bay for <$1,000?  Doesn't ROFR makes that go away.



Just look at Wastegate for a prime example. The ROFR is used only to punish owners at the whim of the developer.  It is so hit and miss that a sale may be queered at $6000 by ROFR while two more go through at $2500. It is only used to benefit the developer - if a few owners also benefit its an accident and if the developer could avoid it they would.  Don't be lured into thinking it protects you if you are an owner as it it the ultimate in smoke and mirrors for that purpose. 

If you need the security of a floor price you know you can get on resale then look for one of the very few resorts that have an actual buy back policy.  Those are a benefit and it is a twisted version of that idea that developers try to paint the ROFR pig with.  Otherwise plan to deal with a free market flooded with other sellers. Buying retail in this environment from anyone - especially those that add the additional whammy of ROFR - is foolish at best. Take advantage of the ultimate buyers market if you buy - take advantage of the rental market if the object of your desire in a timeshare gets into the thin air range of $10,000 or more. Unless you like throwing your money away paying retail for timeshare makes zero sense and ROFR does worse than nothing toward making it a safer deal.


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## Pit (Jun 13, 2007)

dougp26364 said:


> ROFR is good for both the developer and the seller but is a bad thing for those who want to purchase timeshares for less than $1,000 no matter where the location might be.



ROFR only benefits the developer, not the seller. The seller negotiated a price of 19K with the OP, and that's all the seller gets out of this. The seller would have ended up with the same result absent ROFR.


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## jerseygirl (Jun 13, 2007)

Pit said:


> ROFR only benefits the developer, not the seller. The seller negotiated a price of 19K with the OP, and that's all the seller gets out of this. The seller would have ended up with the same result absent ROFR.



True, but the next seller will find it easier to get $19500.


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## timeos2 (Jun 13, 2007)

*Follow the money. It's all in the developers pocket*



jerseygirl said:


> True, but the next seller will find it easier to get $19500.



Not if no one is willing to play the game - and that is the most likely outcome. The next seller will likely try $20,000 or the $19,500 you suggest and get no takers (why bother if it may be taken again by ROFR?).  So it will sit a few months and then the seller says "I need to move this - I'll make it go I'll post it at $19,000 or $18,500 or even $18,000 to get a bite". Eventually they go low enough (below what willing buyers would have been ready to pay if they thought the sale would go through) and get an offer even with the risk of ROFR. When they do in swoops the developer to grab the bargain, disappointing another of the dwindling pool of buyers willing to even get their hopes up with an offer and the seller - again - gets hosed after doing all the work for less than a buyer would have paid. 

Tell me again how ROFR benefits the seller?


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## Pit (Jun 13, 2007)

jerseygirl said:


> True, but the next seller will find it easier to get $19500.



Maybe short-term, but long-term it will have the opposite effect, IMO. As price increases, the pool of interested buyers will shrink (many substitute products available). At some point, the seller has to drop their price if they want to attract an offer. But, buyers who know that ROFR is in force aren't going to waste their time. The seller has a more difficult time finding a legitimate buyer.


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## jerseygirl (Jun 13, 2007)

timeos2 said:
			
		

> Tell me again how ROFR benefits the seller?



Your premise is true if the true market value is below $19000.  My premise is true if there are willing buyers hoping to save $10000+ off the developer price.  I don't know about you, but if I was going to buy that week no matter what, I'd rather pay the next seller $19500 than $30000 (estimate of developer price).

Edited to add:  I am fully aware of that I won't change your opintion, or Pit's, on this topic.  Just posting this for the benefit of those who have been in the position of looking for a specific week at a specific resort at a deep discount to the developer price (i.e. when demand exceeds supply, rare as that is in the resale world).


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## mesamirage (Jun 14, 2007)

change post... lets just say no reason to ever lose a deal to ROFR... thats all I will say.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 14, 2007)

Pit said:


> ROFR only benefits the developer, not the seller. The seller negotiated a price of 19K with the OP, and that's all the seller gets out of this. The seller would have ended up with the same result absent ROFR.



If Hyatt did not have ROFR or buyers did not understand ROFR and bid to low, then the seller could easily have ended up with $1,000 instead of $19,000.

ROFR does not hurt the seller in any way shape or form. How can it? The seller will get his price whether it's high or low. It's only the buyer who is punished by not getting the desired unit at the desired price. 

So long as the seller get's the price he's willing to accept, it does not matter whether it comes from a private party or the developer. The seller still gets his money. The buyer is the ONLY one who does not get what he wants.

You can look at it any way you want but, the seller always gets his money in the end at the price point he decides to accept. While ROFR may artifically inflate the resale prices that the market will bear outside of developer sales, the market still supports those prices as the developer is not going to buy those units back unless he can market and sell them for a profit. 

Free market still works one way or the other. Just because one group of people is unwilling to pay above a certain price does not mean there are others that aren't willing to pay that price or that free market does not work.

I still have seen no solid arguement whereby ROFR damages the seller. So long as the seller recieves the price he is willing to accept, it does not matter where the money comes from.


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## JeffW (Jun 14, 2007)

Christine,
  Sorry for your loss, that would have been a great week at a great price.  Unfortunately, it was sort of what I expected in my June 2 posting:

_That sounds like a great price, but maybe too good - I'd have some doubts it would clear Hyatt's ROFR._

Because of ROFR, buying a Hyatt t/s is basically like participating in a blind auction:  while of course you want to offer to pay a low price, you can't afford to make it TOO low, because then someone else might get it.  That's exactly what happened here - your $19k off was just too low for Hyatt to pass up.

You might consider contact Seth Nock.  He's sold a lot of Hyatt timeshares, and would be in an excellent position to give you an idea of what price is needed for a 2200pt week which cleared ROFR.

Jeff


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## bruwery (Jun 14, 2007)

Christine,

You offered $19,000 the first time around.  I'm assuming you offered that because that's what it was worth to you.

Now some of the proponents of ROFR are encouraging you to buy again, but increase your asking price.  Why should you?  If it's worth $19,000 to you, why should you pay $20,000, or even more?

If you are bound and determined to own that week at that resort, and it's truly worth more to you, then by all means go for it.  Keep in mind, however, that the point of buying resale is to buy at YOUR price - not at the price the developer determines.  With ROFR, the developer is basically setting the price you'll pay.  Pay what it's WORTH TO YOU - NOT WHAT IT'S WORTH TO THEM.

This is why I don't own a Hilton timeshare.  Would I like one?  Yes.  Can I find sellers that would part with one at my price?  Almost certainly.  However, ROFR prevents me from doing this, because what they're worth to me is less than the developer's ROFR price.  If a unit is worth $10k to me, and I have a seller willing to let it go for $10k, it makes NO SENSE to pay $13k.

So, the seller loses a potential buyer, and this is somehow good for the seller?

Onward and upward,

Mark


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## JeffW (Jun 14, 2007)

bruwery said:


> ...You offered $19,000 the first time around.  I'm assuming you offered that because that's what it was worth to you.
> ...



I wouldn't make that assumption.  In my opinion, there's a big difference between, what I can pay for something, and what I'm willing to will pay for something.  I have no knowledge if Christine:
- only has $19k to spend, and stumbled across a great week for themoney
- only wanted that particular week, and found it for a great price.

Based on her happenings:
- if she only has $19k, she'll likely have to get a lesser week (2000 or 1880 point week).
- if she really wants that particular week, she'll likely need to spend more $$.

Ebay is a perfect example.  Maybe I find an auction for a brand new laptop for $400, normal price $1200.  Of course, if I find the item I want, and someone has it for an exceptional price, I'm going to try to buy if from them first.  If I don't get it, more than likely I'll move up another seller who has it for more.  Maybe I find it for $800.  Obviously, not as good as $400, but also better than $1200.

Christine is in the same position.  The 'normal' price for that week (ie. from Hyatt directly) is probably in the high $20's, maybe into the $30's.  She saw a sale listing for $19k, so of course she's going to try that first.  Unfortunately, it's too low (think ebay auction with a reserve price), and she doesn't get it.  If the Hyatt ROFR threshold (reserve price) is say $22k, Christine wouldn't want to bid under that again ($21k), because she'd lose that week as well.  She also wouldn't want to bid way over it ($25k), because it's wasted money.  In The Price is Right, if you bid too high, you lose; with ROFR, if you bid too low, you lose.  With both, you need to: 1) know those rules, 2) have as accurate as possible estimation of that value.

Coincidentally, I watched last night (on tape) the 50th anniversary special for Bob Barker.  In the final showcase, the woman who won was low by over $30k, but only only won because the other contestant was low by even more (over $45k).  Had the guy had a better estimate of the value (my guess was at least $100k, actual price was over $120k), he would have won.   If Christine can get some Hyatt resale price information, and get a better idea of what that week can go for, she'll be in much better shape the next time she bids for one.

Jeff


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## timeos2 (Jun 14, 2007)

*why waste the effort?*



JeffW said:


> If Christine can get some Hyatt resale price information, and get a better idea of what that week can go for, she'll be in much better shape the next time she bids for one.
> 
> Jeff



Why even take the time when it's already more than a buyer is more than willing to accept ($19k) and far more than comparable timeshares sell for. If that is the range of purchase cost required plus annual fees she would be far better off to simply rent for the few times she'd actually use it - thats too much to make it a value as a trader although it should certainly trade well but few places wold offer an equal value in return - or even go for  a trade up using a much less expensive resort, it can happen and still saves big $$$ in the long run. Unless she was planning to use it every single year after purchase it just isn't a good move especially if the price is being artificially inflated. I'd rent with the annual fee money and save the $19,000. front money.


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## YoungCat (Jun 14, 2007)

*ByPass ROFR nonsense*

Why play the Hyatt ROFR game??  Instead go for a win-win with the seller.  Draw the contract such that the price is inflated say another $3-$5k.. then submit that. Why??

If Hyatt doesn't exercise ROFR you get the unit for what you and the seller agreed too and likely it breezes right thru ROFR since the price isn't close to what Hyatt would be willing to pay. Good for Buyer.

If Hyatt decides to exercise on the higher price then the seller is happy and has just won the lottery with Hyatt.  Good for Seller.

Thats it... a win-win.  Easy, smooth, seemless, and good for all involved, unless someone is keeping score for Hyatt in a business who's primary goal is to fleece buyers out of their hard earned money.

OK, so bring on the high moral ground responses.  I'm ready.

As to the price being to high??  huh??  When you sold your last house who decided that price was to high or low?  Its a market price driven system, Sunset Harbor is WORTH that much and more, thats why Hyatt picked it up.  If other resorts were "worth" that much they would sell for that much, its market driven!!!  Simple Americano.  

Next Question!


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## timeos2 (Jun 14, 2007)

*Nice plan, a bit risky for the buyer.*



YoungCat said:


> =
> 
> Thats it... a win-win.  Easy, smooth, seemless, and good for all involved, unless someone is keeping score for Hyatt in a business who's primary goal is to fleece buyers out of their hard earned money.
> 
> OK, so bring on the high moral ground responses.  I'm ready.



Perfect. No qualms here as the ROFR is a sham to begin with. Whatever it takes to get around it is fair game.  As the kids would say "they started it".


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## bruwery (Jun 14, 2007)

JeffW said:


> I wouldn't make that assumption.  In my opinion, there's a big difference between, what I can pay for something, and what I'm willing to will pay for something.  I have no knowledge if Christine:
> - only has $19k to spend, and stumbled across a great week for themoney
> - only wanted that particular week, and found it for a great price.
> Jeff



Your points are well taken, but you seem to have missed the part where I indicated that _if it's worth more than that to her, then by all means go for it_.

Another way to look at ROFR: I consider it to be developer tampering.  Christine and her seller negotiated a price to which they both agreed.  Everybody was happy - for one blissful moment...

Then in stormed Hyatt, and said "thanks for doing the negotiating for us, we'll take that now."  Christine is out her time and effort, and she's been exploited; she's unwittingly served as Hyatt's uncompensated purchasing agent.  The evil developer has violated yet another unsuspecting lass, who was merely trying to lock in years of fabulous vacations for her family.

Now our hapless heroine has no timeshare, she's wasted several hours of her life (which can't ever be replaced), her children are depressed and getting in trouble in school, and she's helped Hyatt make another $15,000.  Yep, sounds like a good deal for everybody.

That is an absolute crock, regardless of what game show it might resemble.

Looking over my post, it appears that I've over-dramatized this to the point where they should make an after-school special warning kids about the dangers of ROFR...

Oh well.  The point is the same, with or without the dramatics.

Onward and upward,

Mark


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## Kal (Jun 14, 2007)

You really have to understand the Hyatt system to recognize the value of a 2200 point week.  They are VERY HARD to obtain by resale as they rarely go on the market.  Right now Hyatt is taking ROFR 2200 point weeks and bargain giveaways.  Sunset Harbor is sold out so the supply and demand curve makes it difficult to get any kind of deal.  Actually there was no hope in even having a shot at the $19K price when you consider Hyatt will flip it and sell for >$35K in a heart beat.  That's a no brainer.  The trick is to get the sale to go at a price where it makes no sense for Hyatt to grab it.  As a thumb rule that's about 75% of Hyatt's retail price.  Even then there's a waiting list for 2200 point weeks so I don't even think the 75% number is good enough to overcome ROFR.  There are other ways to make that deal work so it actually can be done without Hyatt interference.

It has nothing to do with price support as the property is sold out.  Sunset Harbor has the highest owner occupancy rate of any Hyatt property so the demand curve is high.  Then when you consider what can be done in the Hyatt system with 2200 points, that's another huge pressure on the demand curve.

Current Sunset Harbor owners are constantly on the lookout to add additional weeks to the weeks they own, so a Hyatt newbie has to compete with savy Hyatt owners.


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## bruwery (Jun 15, 2007)

My problem with ROFR is not that I don't understand the Hyatt system.  I'm not knocking the Hyatt system, but I don't see any need to pretend it's anything more complex than a collection of nice resorts with an internal ponts-based trading system.

If the true free market price is above the ROFR cutoff, that's all well and good.  I'm happy for the Hyatt owners.  However, it's short-sighted to believe that it will always be the case.  I don't wish bad things upon their investment, but eventually, those values will drop.

Back to the point: regardless of the current free market value, the ROFR still exploited the buyer in this case, and it did NOTHING to help the apparently naive seller obtain market value from his end.

The only party that benefited from this was Hyatt.  ROFR is not a good thing.

Mark


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## Kal (Jun 15, 2007)

The Hyatt system has two components - deeded ownership and points.  There are values in both.  For one, you have exclusive right to the specific unit you own.  Second, if you choose not to use the unit owned, the points can be used in lots of ways, but specifically at very high-end resorts.

Thus, purchasing Sunset Harbor is a big plus for those that are interested in owning a specific unit in the very best location in Key West.

Second, the value of 2200 points is HUGE.  When using those points a person can stay at the best resorts in the Hyatt system on ANY week.  As an example, even though a person might buy a unit for $19K to $35K in Key West, those points can be used to stay at an Aspen unit which sold for $650K.

Therefore, when buying a 2200 point unit you get the very best of both needs.  The transaction discussed here has much more value than $19K.  Hyatt made a sound business decision where if others owners had an equal opportunity to get it for $19K the line would extend out the door.

There is no doubt that the unit is NOT worth $35K.  If Hyatt sells it for $35K, the real value is probably about $18K.  But you can walk into a car dealership and buy a quality automobile for $50K.  Immediately after purchase the value is probably about $25K (and it continues to decrease year after year).  That doesn't mean you can buy it for $25K.  Supply and demand.

Unlike MANY other timeshare properties, Hyatt has a system where the values are consistently increasing.  Is it a bubble??  Probably, but just like the automobile business as long as the supply and demand curves hold it's a good thing for Hyatt AND Hyatt owners.


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## Pit (Jun 15, 2007)

Kal said:


> For one, you have exclusive right to the specific unit you own.





Kal said:


> Second, the value of 2200 points is HUGE.  When using those points a person can stay at the best resorts in the Hyatt system on ANY week.  As an example, even though a person might buy a unit for $19K to $35K in Key West, those points can be used to stay at an Aspen unit which sold for $650K.



But, doesn't this assume that the owner of that $650K unit is not going to use it or rent it out? You can't have it both ways.



Kal said:


> There is no doubt that the unit is NOT worth $35K.  If Hyatt sells it for $35K, the real value is probably about $18K.



The "real value" is whatever the owner can sell it for. In this case $19K.


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## Kal (Jun 15, 2007)

Pit said:


> But, doesn't this assume that the owner of that $650K unit is not going to use it or rent it out? You can't have it both ways...


 
Agree, but the point is there are MANY, MANY options in the system to stay at units where the purchase price was far beyond $100K.  A very nice opportunity when the cost of the unit the owner is "trading" is $19K-$35K.


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## JeffW (Jun 15, 2007)

There are pluses and minuses to ROFR.  While it doesn't help the current owner, it can help other owners.  If I was an owner at any ROFR resort, there would be some comforrt in knowing that the value of my week wouldn't drop to ridiculously low levels.  

If I was a wk52 Sunset Harbor owner, I'd hate knowing that the unit I might have paid $30k for from the developer years ago can sell for $10k now, because a desperate owner who needed to sell was allowed to sell for that price.  Once people see that, they can get conditioned to thinking that's an acceptable price.  If I listed my unit for $24k, people might think, "I won't buy that, since I know they can sell for $10k".  I'd likely eventually need to lower my price.

With ROFR in this case, even $19k isn't enough to buy a unit.  Christine (and others) now know that $20k+ will be needed to buy a unit.  As with any big-ticket item (house, car, timeshare), if you plan on holding on for it forever, you really don't care much any it holding value longterm.  However, if at some point you might sell it, then you want it to have a decent resale price.  ROFR does that.

Jeff


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## timeos2 (Jun 15, 2007)

*Another example of why it is only developer friendly*

The only reason ROFR exists is to make the resale buyer feel it is too much hassle, might end up being too close to retail price and therefore why not just deal with the retail weasels rather than resale.  Remember the seller doesn't see those high prices only the developer.  If the week is so good and in demand that it really is worth $25-$32,000 then a resale offer for that amount would be grabbed up and never see ROFR.  But they aren't, its a propped up number. So instead the seller, to get any interest, has to go much lower and when THAT number is grabbed by ROFR they still only get the $19,000 (or $12,000 or $10,00).  It is only a plan to get people to pay developer prices not a protection for the sellers.


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## dougp26364 (Jun 15, 2007)

timeos2 said:


> The only reason ROFR exists is to make the resale buyer feel it is too much hassle, might end up being too close to retail price and therefore why not just deal with the retail weasels rather than resale.  Remember the seller doesn't see those high prices only the developer.  If the week is so good and in demand that it really is worth $25-$32,000 then a resale offer for that amount would be grabbed up and never see ROFR.  But they aren't, its a propped up number. So instead the seller, to get any interest, has to go much lower and when THAT number is grabbed by ROFR they still only get the $19,000 (or $12,000 or $10,00).  It is only a plan to get people to pay developer prices not a protection for the sellers.



I can think of one other reason ROFR exists, the developer can buy low and sell higher. A developer won't do anything without profit. They sure aren't going to protect their owners resale value just because it's the right thing to do. Apprently the demand IS so good that the week will pull $25,000 to $32,000 IF it is marketed correctly. Developers can and do market and sell these weeks at this price. If the market would not tolerate those prices the developer would not snatch them up and put them back into their inventory.

IMO, ROFR is the free market system at work. It might be a hassle to the resale buyer only because it brings the price up to what the retail market will bear. ROFR only hurts the low ball bidder. The seller and the developer seem to come out all right to me.

Now I'm not foolish enough to sit here and tell you as a buyer I'm thrilled about ROFR. It does force my price up. However, I'm also not fooish enough to think that ROFR is a scam and benefits only the developer. If I[m a seller and ROFR forces buyers to bid higher or pay a higher price to clear the bar, then I'm a happy camper. I get more money out of selling my timeshare and I fail to see how that's a bad thing for the seller.


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## Kal (Jun 15, 2007)

ROFR is no sinister plot to put the squeeze on resale buyers, but rather simple business economics.  Hyatt (as the developer) is out to make a profit.  They make a business analysis on every resale that comes across their desk.  If they can achieve a prescribed threshold margin they take it.  Right now they are only taking the 2200 point weeks and the bargain giveaways.  There's a solid market for any 2200 point weeks so they don't have to hold it in inventory.  The bargain giveaways will have sufficient margin where they can hold the unit until it sells.

With regard to Sunset Harbor, the sales guys told me in April 2007 that the 2200 point weeks are in high demand yet they had few (if any) in their inventory.  Without doubt, the seller didn't have a clue as to a proper sales price.  Thus (s)he left considerable money on the table by agreeing to a low sales price.  The buyer lost out because they didn't understand the market for 2200 point weeks. There was only ONE winner.


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## bruwery (Jun 16, 2007)

dougp26364 said:


> However, I'm also not fooish enough to think that ROFR is a scam and benefits only the developer. If I[m a seller and ROFR forces buyers to bid higher or pay a higher price to clear the bar, then I'm a happy camper. I get more money out of selling my timeshare and I fail to see how that's a bad thing for the seller.



Okey dokey.  Tell ya' what:  I'll continue to be "foolish" and avoid buying properties propped up by ROFR.  Down the road, *when* Hyatt stops exercising ROFR, (and they will as soon as it's no longer profitable) maybe I'll no longer look so foolish.

I'm not knocking the Hyatt system, and I don't doubt that at the present time they're a valuable property; I just don't trust ROFR.  Then again, maybe I'm just jealous because I don't have $20k lying around.


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## Kal (Jun 17, 2007)

bruwery said:


> Okey dokey. Tell ya' what: I'll continue to be "foolish" and avoid buying properties propped up by ROFR. ...


 
If the developer is "propping up properties", why do they only take just the very high end and very low end resales?  The majority of resales are in between.




bruwery said:


> ...Then again, maybe I'm just jealous because I don't have $20k lying around.


 
It think you will find $20K is at the low end of the purchase range.  FYI, one Aspen unit sold for $650K.  Many other properties easily sell in the >$100K price point.


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## Zac495 (Jun 17, 2007)

JeffW said:


> Christine,
> 
> 
> You might consider contact Seth Nock.  He's sold a lot of Hyatt timeshares, and would be in an excellent position to give you an idea of what price is needed for a 2200pt week which cleared ROFR.
> ...



I second that. Seth sold me both of my timeshares (hilton and marriott as it so happens). He told me what he thought it would pass at, and was willing to go a little lower if I wasn't desperate to get it right away. With our first, we wanted exactly that unit and he chose the right price. With Hilton, we went a little low and got lucky. It passed. Seth really knows the people and they help him out by passing some of them.


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## cphelps (Aug 20, 2007)

*Can you elaborate on how to keep Hyatt from exercising ROFR?*



Kal said:


> You really have to understand the Hyatt system to recognize the value of a 2200 point week.  They are VERY HARD to obtain by resale as they rarely go on the market.  Right now Hyatt is taking ROFR 2200 point weeks and bargain giveaways.  Sunset Harbor is sold out so the supply and demand curve makes it difficult to get any kind of deal.  Actually there was no hope in even having a shot at the $19K price when you consider Hyatt will flip it and sell for >$35K in a heart beat.  That's a no brainer.  The trick is to get the sale to go at a price where it makes no sense for Hyatt to grab it.  As a thumb rule that's about 75% of Hyatt's retail price.  Even then there's a waiting list for 2200 point weeks so I don't even think the 75% number is good enough to overcome ROFR.  There are other ways to make that deal work so it actually can be done without Hyatt interference.
> 
> It has nothing to do with price support as the property is sold out.  Sunset Harbor has the highest owner occupancy rate of any Hyatt property so the demand curve is high.  Then when you consider what can be done in the Hyatt system with 2200 points, that's another huge pressure on the demand curve.
> 
> Current Sunset Harbor owners are constantly on the lookout to add additional weeks to the weeks they own, so a Hyatt newbie has to compete with savy Hyatt owners.




You stated "There are other ways to make that deal work so it actually can be done without Hyatt interference".  Can you explain?  I have to really good deals that I am affraid will get snared in the ROFR clause.

Thanks,


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## BocaBum99 (Aug 20, 2007)

dougp26364 said:


> IMO, ROFR is the free market system at work. It might be a hassle to the resale buyer only because it brings the price up to what the retail market will bear. ROFR only hurts the low ball bidder. The seller and the developer seem to come out all right to me.




What are you talking about?  ROFR is ANYTHING but the FREE market at work.  It's just the opposite.  It is artificial price supports. 

That's like saying that the Chinese Yuan is set at a market based price because the Chinese government pegs it to the US Dollar.


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## benjaminb13 (Aug 21, 2007)

Just checked ---it seems that in the  2000 point range-(platinum)there are a few Hyatt resales- The 2200 points range (diamond)  has even fewer- Hardly any are below 20,000.


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## Carmel85 (Aug 21, 2007)

cphelps said:


> You stated "There are other ways to make that deal work so it actually can be done without Hyatt interference".  Can you explain?  I have to really good deals that I am affraid will get snared in the ROFR clause.
> 
> Thanks,




Please make sure you get your offer from the seller in writing until then you have NOTHING! Both you (buyer) and Seller must have a contract in writing.

I know you stated  to me your 2000 point deal  in PM but AGAIN i do not believe it is real!!! 

Once you get it in writing there are a few of us that hopefully we can help you but you have NOTHING NOW because you have NOTHING in writing!!!!

HYATT will buy your 2000 point timeshare 1000% sure at that price you stated to me in PM!!!!

If you do not believe me tell everybody your buying price range and see what their opinion is if HYATT will go forward with FROR... Their answer will be 1000%


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## LisaRex (Aug 21, 2007)

YoungCat said:


> Why play the Hyatt ROFR game??  Instead go for a win-win with the seller.  Draw the contract such that the price is inflated say another $3-$5k.. then submit that. Why??



By signing a contract, you have legally bound yourself to that price.  Now the seller might be nice and revert back to the "real" price you negotiated (wink, wink)... or they could sue you for the contracted amount.  And I have no doubt they'd win.

If you're willing to gamble, you'd better be willing to lose.


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## Carmel85 (Aug 21, 2007)

LisaRex said:


> By signing a contract, you have legally bound yourself to that price.  Now the seller might be nice and revert back to the "real" price you negotiated (wink, wink)... or they could sue you for the contracted amount.  And I have no doubt they'd win.
> 
> If you're willing to gamble, you'd better be willing to lose.



Do not forget to have a contingency period in your contract and you can always amend you contract. Nothing is ever set in stone you can always motify your sales agreement or back out or (cant say sorry).


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## Kal (Aug 21, 2007)

LisaRex said:


> By signing a contract, you have legally bound yourself to that price. Now the seller might be nice and revert back to the "real" price you negotiated (wink, wink)... or they could sue you for the contracted amount. And I have no doubt they'd win.
> 
> If you're willing to gamble, you'd better be willing to lose.


 
You're only looking a ONE HALF of the transaction.  Obviously there are two parts where the second part should be as secure as the first part.


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## Carmel85 (Aug 21, 2007)

Kal said:


> You're only looking a ONE HALF of the transaction.  Obviously there are two parts where the second part should be as secure as the first part.




100% correct Kal.


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## myip (Aug 21, 2007)

Hyatt did exercised ROFR for 2200 points for  $16000


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## JeffW (Aug 21, 2007)

myip said:


> Hyatt did exercised ROFR for 2200 points for  $16000



They had to, that's way too a low a price.

Especially with Hyatt, if you want to try to save some money in buying resale, you need to do some homework.  I think of it as the inverse of the Price is Right showcase.

There, if you bid too high, you're automatically disqualified.  If you bid too low, you risk the other competitor having a more accurate price estimate, and winning.

With Hyatt, the first thing is not to big too low.  You do that, and you'll lose, with Hyatt snapping up the week.  However, you also don't want to bid too high, because that's just extra money out of your pocket.  You need to pick an accurate price somewhere in the middle, where you don't lose to Hyatt, and you don't beat yourself.

Jeff


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## Kal (Aug 21, 2007)

There are ways to get around the ROFR and still pay your price.  Think outside the box.


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## Carmel85 (Aug 21, 2007)

Steve and Kal,

You are both 1000% correct there is always ways around ROFR but not if the offer for a hyatt 2000 point week is less than 7k. I think you will agree you cant even  get that one through correct?  

FYI Hyatt is now looking at the actual deeds after close of escrow and in most every county there is a transfer tax so you cant hide the price from Hyatt. Hyatt has just caught  a few people and been able to bring charges and stop the sale of some of their timeshares even after the close of escrow. So if the numbers don't add up to what Hyatt singed off Hyatt can kill the deal. 
Remember hyatt signs off on 15k but you are actually buying it for 10k will guess what somebody either the buyer or the seller is coming up with the other 5k or hyatt would have exercised  the ROFR.  Fraud fraud!!!!:ignore: :ignore:   

bob


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## benjaminb13 (Aug 21, 2007)

Fraud is  relative, Bob
Most people who overstate income when getting a credit card or buying a home and most people who massage their tax returns could well be considered fraud right?


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## Kal (Aug 21, 2007)

Bob - The goal is to produce a sales document which identifies a purchase price that Hyatt will not grab.  That becomes the basis for the sale price shown on the deed and sets the criteria for any local taxes.  No problem there.

Of course there might be other aspects of the deal.


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## Carmel85 (Aug 22, 2007)

Kal said:


> Bob - The goal is to produce a sales document which identifies a purchase price that Hyatt will not grab.  That becomes the basis for the sale price shown on the deed and sets the criteria for any local taxes.  No problem there.
> 
> Of course there might be other aspects of the deal.



100% correct KAL * ALWAYS other aspects of the deal!!!!*


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## Carmel85 (Aug 22, 2007)

benjaminb13 said:


> Fraud is  relative, Bob
> Most people who overstate income when getting a credit card or buying a home and most people who massage their tax returns could well be considered fraud right?


  Please lets talk apples and oranges!!!!  When people are trying to buy a Hyatt 2000 point deal for under 7k something is wrong with the deal!!! FRAUD!!! BUYER  BEWARE!!!!


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## mesamirage (Aug 22, 2007)

Bob,

What if this guy is really getting the deal for his stated price... that seems to bother you?? I'm always happy for anyone who can score a great resale deal... even if its better than what I previously paid.

It is possible to get some REALLY unbelievable resale deals from time to time.... lets give this guy the benefit of the doubt. At the same time I would agree with you that buyer beware on anything that seems to good to be true. I also would not help this individual with how to accomplish making his deal happen as far as getting it to pass ROFR... he PM me... but I declined. I mean he may be a good guy... may not be... he has only 3 post on TUG... not enough history/reputation for me to share info I think should be shared discretly. For all I know he works for Hyatt and is trying to figure out how to firm up their resale ROFR program. Or he might be someone who means well but then goes and quotes my name with Hyatt as where he got the info on how to get a low priced resale thru ROFR.

Sorry he just doesn't have enough history on TUG for me to be to eager to share. I have always stated that I think TUG is a community... and part of what makes that happen is for everyone to contribute, so when someone shows up on TUG with posting their first couple messages wanted us long term members to invest our time and energy into how to walk them thru something or demanding info (and I'm not picking on this one guy, I mean in general) I think that is when TUG doesn't work.

Its a sharing community... give and take... not just log in and take. My hat is off to those long term members who take the time to respond to brand new guests that ask a series of questions instead of researching the site.


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## Kal (Aug 22, 2007)

Carmel85 said:


> Please lets talk apples and oranges!!!! When people are trying to buy a Hyatt 2000 point deal for under 7k something is wrong with the deal!!! FRAUD!!! BUYER BEWARE!!!!


 
The seller is from Nigeria and just doesn't have time to use his 2000 point platinum week timeshare.  Very busy trying to find someone to help transfer a few dollars out of his country!


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## Carmel85 (Aug 22, 2007)

mesamirage said:


> Bob,
> 
> What if this guy is really getting the deal for his stated price... that seems to bother you?? I'm always happy for anyone who can score a great resale deal... even if its better than what I previously paid.
> 
> ...



Again you and KAL are 100% right!!!!

I think we 3 should run for a Hyatt HOA!!!   Your thoughts and KAL's 2008!!!!


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## cphelps (Aug 23, 2007)

It looks like everyone is getting a kick out putting this newbie through his "rookie" season.  If I have offended anyone that was never my intent.  I joined this forum to see if I could figure out how I could get a good deal on a timeshare for my family.  I have spent several hours each evening over the last coulple of weeks reading the different posts.  I assure you I am trying to do my homework on buying a timeshare at the right price.

To be honest I am getting a bad taste in my mouth about the whole process.  I did have a seller that had a 2000 pt Hyatt week in Key West asking $5k.  I pushed my offer to $6500 and made several calls to the listing company.  I was told that the seller had a buyer and was waiting to see if he would pony up the escrow money.  A week later the seller contacted me and said it was mine if I wanted it.  Of course I did and we started the proceedings when the first buyer's money showed up at the escrow company.  The seller said the first buyer refused to tear up their purchase agreement and I lost out because the seller did not want to fight the issue.

I was eagerly trying to gleen info from the "experts" on this site to help in getting the property purchased without getting the rug pulled out from under me by ROFR clause.  I have now bid and agreed in principal on another high point week.  I am waiting until I have the purchase agreement from the seller before I get my hopes up.  This one is also at a price that I fear will trigger ROFR. I would say more but I too don't know who I am conversing with.  The comment was made that "I don't want to help someone who has posted a couple of times and expects to be one of the insiders".  Did you ever consider the fact that someone who has posted regularly could be the resort agent you are trying to avoid.

I do not work for Hyatt or any other resort...I work for a machine tool manufacturer in the midwest that builds equipment to automate the building of ductwork.  I would appreciate any help you can offer.  Again I appologize if my posts offended anyone.

Respectfully!


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## Bill4728 (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm sorry that you think you are being made fun of. We truely are not doing that. 

That said:

Sometimes there is a disconnect between what a seller and buyer will agree on and the price Hyatt is willing to let pass thru ROFR.  It sounds like sellers are having a hard time finding buyers who are willing to go high enough to pass ROFR. 

The problem is there just aren't enough reports here on TUG for us to tell you exactly what will pass ROFR.


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## JeffW (Aug 23, 2007)

cphelps said:


> It looks like everyone is getting a kick out putting this newbie through his "rookie" season.  If I have offended anyone that was never my intent.  I joined this forum to see if I could figure out how I could get a good deal on a timeshare for my family.  I have spent several hours each evening over the last coulple of weeks reading the different posts.  I assure you I am trying to do my homework on buying a timeshare at the right price.
> 
> To be honest I am getting a bad taste in my mouth about the whole process.  I did have a seller that had a 2000 pt Hyatt week in Key West asking $5k.  I pushed my offer to $6500 and made several calls to the listing company.  ...!



While I didn't reread the thread, I don't think anyone on TUG was taking any liberties with you.  Most TUG posts are pretty straightforward and honest.

Without being too critical though, if your last paragraph is accurate, then either you haven't been doing your home, or you've been doing it very poorly.  Forget a 2000pt week.  I have doubts that the lowest week in Key West (1300 pt) would clear $6500, let alone $5000.  I think you'd be hard pressed to find any posts or references to indicate that's not the case, for either a 1300pt week, let alone a 2000pt week.  

Likewise, any seller asking only $5k for a 2000pt also doesn't really seem to know what's going on.  That price is so low that I don't even think the seller needs to look for buyers.  He might as well cut out the extra work and call Hyatt directly and ask if they'd buy it for that price, since they'd certainly grab it on ROFR.  

Without even doing any research (ebay closed auctions is a quick source), I'd guess that a 2000pt week would need to be at least $15k to clear ROFR, and that's really generous.  That might be the going price for an 1880pt week.

I wish you luck in getting a Hyatt unit, but I think you'll need to pony up a lot more cash.

Jeff


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## taffy19 (Aug 23, 2007)

timeos2 said:


> Perfect. No qualms here as the ROFR is a sham to begin with. Whatever it takes to get around it is fair game. As the kids would say "they started it".


You call it a sham but the developer calls it "control"  of the inventory so they can buy a unit back if they want to and can make a quick profit. Right now it has benefited some sellers because the next one can demand a higher price but that can change tomorrow when the developer is no longer exercising his ROFR option. If the developer has a hard time selling new units, he will take very few back unless he has a request for it pending and he can make a quick profit again. Can you blame him? That's what they are in business for.

Most big developers are putting this clause in their contract today so does that mean that you are no longer going to buy at a new resort where you like to own? How many little independent resorts are being built today? If there are, they most likely include this clause too as it will benefit them later.

All developers are scheming how to make it more difficult for owners to compete with them. Once there is no profit to be made anymore in building new resorts, we are all left with the pieces and then you hope that the HOA will run the resort well so it stays a desirable place to go to but will it keep the Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton or Starwood name? Would Wyndham swallow them all up or ResortQuest?  That is another question for later.


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## Kal (Aug 23, 2007)

cphelps said:


> ...I did have a seller that had a 2000 pt Hyatt week in Key West asking $5k. I pushed my offer to $6500 and made several calls to the listing company. ...


 
If you want to take a shot at a $5K week just make sure the escrow agent is legitimate and the sales agreement has a specific END DATE where you get all funds returned. Otherwise your money could be tied up in never-never land. 

The buyer has probably got <<1% chance of getting it thru ROFR. Just remember Hyatt will sell a 2000 point week in Key West for about $17/point. The $5K number would be $2.50/point. Put yourself in Hyatt's dancing shoes. If you could grab something for $5K and turn around and sell it for almost $35K is that a no-brainer??????  (Go *Here* for some recent Key West pricing.

To me, that "deal" sounds like a scam!

You're absolutely on the right track in setting your sights at the 2000 point level. It's just going to take some effort. As you have read there are ways of getting around the ROFR but unless you have a continuing relationship with someone I just don't think too many savy folks will provide all the clear step-by-step details. There are posters and observers on this board who work for Hyatt.


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## mesamirage (Aug 23, 2007)

cphelps said:


> The comment was made that "I don't want to help someone who has posted a couple of times and expects to be one of the insiders". .....
> 
> I would appreciate any help you can offer. Again I appologize if my posts offended anyone.
> 
> Respectfully!


 
First, welcome to TUG! I sorry your first experience has been one that has been a bad experience... and if I have added to that, I apologize.

Second, I didn't say anything about being an "insider" My main point (and it was NOT directed at you... but in general, is that TUG is a community, give and take... here is my actual post...

_Sorry he just doesn't have enough history on TUG for me to be to eager to share. I have always stated that I think TUG is a community... and part of what makes that happen is for everyone to contribute, so when someone shows up on TUG with posting their first couple messages wanted us long term members to invest our time and energy into how to walk them thru something or demanding info (*and I'm not picking on this one guy, I mean in general*) I think that is when TUG doesn't work._

_Its a sharing community... give and take... not just log in and take. My hat is off to those long term members who take the time to respond to brand new guests that ask a series of questions instead of researching the site._

Most members including myself are more than willing to help "newbies", this is what TUG is about... helping make timeshare ownership a better, more affordable experience.

However, my reluctancy isn't to share in general but to share on specifics of how to massage ROFR to work for both seller and buyer. I personally want to continue to purchase Hyatt properties and I don't want to post info on a "grey area" such as that. Yes, There is a certain amount of trust that you gain with some of the long term members who have contributed more often since you get to know them. Even then I would be hesistant on certain topics. 

If I can help with any Hyatt questions, I will try, since our family REALLY enjoys Hyatt and I think it can bring your family many wonderful vacations. 

I hope that clears things up a bit... Again I apologize if you feel like you were targeted specifically with my post. I did not intend to make TUG a bad experience for you in any way... you will find TUG is full of many many fantastic owners, who are always willing to share their insight they have learned.


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## cphelps (Aug 23, 2007)

I really appreciate those of you who have taken the time to answer questions and attempt to help.  With time I may be able to impart wisdom to new TUGers but right now I am trying to amass some knowlege.  At this point I do not own a timeshare but I am trying very hard to remedy that.  Because I don't have the confidence of anyone "in the know" I will just have to go it alone.  Let me ask you this, when you were buying your first timeshare did anyone show you the ropes.  If no one feels they can trust me enough to give me some clues I will give it the "college" try myself and see what happens.

Thanks again.  I will let you know how I come out on the 2200 point week I am trying to buy now.

Respectfully,


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## Kal (Aug 23, 2007)

cphelps said:


> ....I will let you know how I come out on the 2200 point week I am trying to buy now.
> 
> Respectfully,


 
Actually, you are getting quite a bit of assistance, but you won't know how much until you look at it in the rear view mirror.

The 2200 point week is an excellent choice!  It will pay off in spades far into the future.  However, Hyatt will grab the 2200 point weeks on ROFR in a heartbeat.  In that regard either buy it thru Hyatt or set your purchase price at least 75% of retail.

We can lend additional assistance on a case specific basis, probably thru email.

BTW, just about everyone I know bought their first timeshare from the developer.  So if you are looking at resales as a virgin buyer you're already ahead of maybe 90% of all timeshare owners.  Of course it's a different story on purchasing the second timeshare.  For me, the first TWO were from the developers.  Then I got religion for the subsequent 4 others.


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## benjaminb13 (Aug 24, 2007)

- I almost purchased my HGVC  directly from the developer-  Luckily I found this site- the info shared allowed me to spend the same amount of money for a HGVC and Hyatt 2000 point / Key West- 
Most of the more experienced Tuggers are honest, have strong opinions but are also very helpful- 
Anyway- 
Jeff is right 2000 point Hyatt 15000 is the minimum- I tried for 13500 and ROFR kicked in-
You can get 1880 for 12500-13000 ' 1300- maybe 6000
There arent as many 2200 and 2000 points available for sale-
Dont try to pin your hopes on purchasing at these points at a lesser price like I did- you willl only manage tie up your money-be very frustrated like you are today -and waste valuable time-
good luck to you


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## seatrout (Aug 25, 2007)

benjaminb13 said:


> -Anyway-
> Jeff is right 2000 point Hyatt 15000 is the minimum- I tried for 13500 and ROFR kicked in-





I closed  2000 point Hyatt Beach house for 13,500 few months back and passed.  However, since I had 2007 usage and have to pay all closing cost, I had these $$ added to the contract.  Thus the contract stated the sale price was $14,800 with  seller pay closing cost and 2007 maintenance. We were told that we passed by few hundred dollar but not sure how acurate the statement was.  So-- the 15K for 2000 point is prety close the the limit


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## saturn28 (Aug 29, 2007)

I am aware that there are sellers on Ebay that massage the price when they send it in for the first right of refusal on Marriott and Hyatt weeks. I was told by the seller that they do this all the time and never have had a sale not go through. I have had personal experience with them during a purchase I made.


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## benjaminb13 (Aug 29, 2007)

As it is, buying a timeshare resale is a long drawn out process.  IMO Trying to test the limits of ROFR is frustrating- and many times unrewarding.  Especially when you have your heart set on a certain unit and time.  Ive learned to be content with having to pay a little more for peace of mind.


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