# Grande Ocean - Pool Bar Jim suspended?! [2016]



## disneymom1

Posted on Facebook on Pool Bar Jim's page are over 100+ people posting their grievances about Pool Bar Jim being suspended by Marriott management for not charging someone for a drink??  This sounds weird.  Anyone have the real story?


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## tlwmkw

People are reporting that someone complained that Jim didn't "ring up" their drink and complained about it. (Not sure why they would complain about that). As a result he was suspended by MVCI and isn't there now- no one is saying when he will be back. Also his books and t-shirts aren't available and the bar tenders don't seem to know how to make his drinks.

People are saying that MVCI wants to get rid of him and make the bar more generic and less about Jim. Rumors are also that he didn't like the new remodel that was done at the bar.


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## jme

It's a much longer and more complicated story than that, and right now it's difficult to get the whole truth. Rumors abound, but there are more serious undertones than just the rumors. When things become more clear, word will travel fast. But I honestly think at this point Jim is gone, and I believe it's been planned for some time. 

All merchandise has been removed, and he's not been allowed to sell his wares on site for a while.  All signage relating to Jim has also been removed from the premises, and his drink recipes are "not available" as such.  The bar has been taken over by confused and unfamiliar Marriott employees. 

Suffice it to say that nearly 100% of owners and guests love Jim and want him at GO for the long term----he's an island icon and institution, & unique to GO----and have rabidly supported him since the beginning, and ousting him *by an individual* because of a petty agenda (and blatant misunderstanding of his value) will not be forgotten or forgiven. A word to the wise, just in case inquisitive eyes are watching this BBS.



.


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## GregT

jme said:


> It's a much longer and more complicated story than that, and right now it's difficult to get the whole truth. Rumors abound, but there are more serious undertones than just the rumors. When things become more clear, word will travel fast. But I honestly think at this point Jim is gone, and I believe it's been planned for some time.
> 
> All merchandise has been removed, and he's not been allowed to sell his wares on site for a while.  All signage relating to Jim has also been removed from the premises, and his drink recipes are "not available" as such.
> 
> Suffice it to say that nearly 100% of owners and guests love Jim and want him at GO for the long term----he's an island icon and institution, & unique to GO----and have rabidly supported him since the beginning, and ousting him *by an individual* because of a petty agenda (and blatant misunderstanding of his value) would not be forgotten or forgiven. A word to the wise, just in case inquisitive eyes are watching this BBS.
> 
> 
> 
> .



That would be a real shame, if he is truly gone and if the infractions was truly this minor.  We've only been once but loved that bar (and spent alot of money there).  I hope this is not the case.

Best,

Greg


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## answeeney

Ninety-nine times out of a hundred "failing to ring up a drink" is part of a pattern. The bar tender fails to ring up several drinks per evening and pockets the amounts involved. Bar-managers will be on the lookout for such behaviour and it usually results in instant dismissal for the perpetrator. After all theft is hardly a minor infraction.


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## NTP66

There's a better chance that you'll get struck by lightning than there is Jim pocketing cash from a customer. If Jim is gone by the time we arrive at GO in a few weeks, I imagine that nobody in my family will ever go back to the bar.


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## disneymom1

jme said:


> It's a much longer and more complicated story than that, and right now it's difficult to get the whole truth. Rumors abound, but there are more serious undertones than just the rumors. When things become more clear, word will travel fast. But I honestly think at this point Jim is gone, and I believe it's been planned for some time.
> 
> All merchandise has been removed, and he's not been allowed to sell his wares on site for a while.  All signage relating to Jim has also been removed from the premises, and his drink recipes are "not available" as such.  The bar has been taken over by confused and unfamiliar Marriott employees.
> 
> Suffice it to say that nearly 100% of owners and guests love Jim and want him at GO for the long term----he's an island icon and institution, & unique to GO----and have rabidly supported him since the beginning, and ousting him *by an individual* because of a petty agenda (and blatant misunderstanding of his value) will not be forgotten or forgiven. A word to the wise, just in case inquisitive eyes are watching this BBS.
> 
> 
> 
> .




Thank you for the explanation.  Please keep us posted.  The Facebook posts continue - LOTS of unhappy Grande Ocean owners who truly love Pool Bar Jim and stand with/support him.   Sad situation!


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## bw3

*Management*

New Marriott management continues to abuse our resort and owners. Marriott has forgotten that they are only management. It might be time to request proposals from other management services. Yes, I mean fire Marriott!!!


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## RLS50

jme said:


> It's a much longer and more complicated story than that, and right now it's difficult to get the whole truth. Rumors abound, but there are more serious undertones than just the rumors. When things become more clear, word will travel fast. But I honestly think at this point Jim is gone, and I believe it's been planned for some time.
> 
> All merchandise has been removed, and he's not been allowed to sell his wares on site for a while.  All signage relating to Jim has also been removed from the premises, and his drink recipes are "not available" as such.  The bar has been taken over by confused and unfamiliar Marriott employees.
> 
> Suffice it to say that nearly 100% of owners and guests love Jim and want him at GO for the long term----he's an island icon and institution, & unique to GO----and have rabidly supported him since the beginning, and ousting him *by an individual* because of a petty agenda (and blatant misunderstanding of his value) will not be forgotten or forgiven. A word to the wise, just in case inquisitive eyes are watching this BBS.
> .


Interesting comments.

Our first ever trip to Grande Ocean was going to be later this Fall, and one of the things we were looking forward to was getting a chance to meet this Pool Bar Jim guy and try out his creations.

But I would agree that the real story must be much more complicated than this incident described.   There is no way management would make a move like this on a 20 year HHI icon without either absolute proof of serious infractions or a plan that was already in place to phase him out using this incident as an excuse for cover.

The current explanation provided and severe actions taken as described do not seem to add up on their own.   JMO.


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## BocaBoy

NTP66 said:


> There's a better chance that you'll get struck by lightning than there is Jim pocketing cash from a customer.


I have never been to Grande Ocean when Pool Bar Jim's was open so I have never even seen the guy.

You may well be right that Pool Bar Jim is 150% honest, so the following comment is not specific to this situation, but in cases of major employee theft it is often the least suspected and most trusted who is the culprit.  Nobody suspected Bernie Madoff either.  It will be interesting to see what if any further information is forthcoming on the Grande Ocean situation.


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## Superchief

I recall that recently a new GM took over GO. Do you think this has anything to do with the new GM? If so, this would definitely be a clear indication he/she is out of touch with owners' concerns. 

I've only been to GO once and had a chance to enjoy Pool Bar Jim's. This was the only MVC bar I would ever visit except during Happy Hour. I'm sure this resort made a lot of money due to Jim. This is a real shame.


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## silentg

BocaBoy said:


> I have never been to Grande Ocean when Pool Bar Jim's was open so I have never even seen the guy.
> 
> You may well be right that Pool Bar Jim is 150% honest, so the following comment is not specific to this situation, but in cases of major employee theft it is often the least suspected and most trusted who is the culprit.  Nobody suspected Bernie Madoff either.  It will be interesting to see what if any further information is forthcoming on the Grande Ocean situation.



If Jim is so popular, he should look to Marriott's competitors in the area, he could get a following at a new place, I'm sure he will land on his feet!
Silentg


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## davidvel

I agree that Marriott better have a lot of evidence that he stole (or was comping his favorite customers), or they'll be in a heap of legal trouble. 

Assuming of course, the rumor is really the cause for his absence. The timing of the new GM's arrival certainly is interesting, but maybe he saw something improper that a prior GM let pass due to the popularity of Jim. 

People often think they know those that they adore or have a connection to such as sports stars and entertainers only to find out things they never would have believed to be true.


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## NTP66

> He is trying to claim Jim "pocketed" the money! Marriott said they consider it stealing! Jim did NOT take the money, he rang up the drink and put the money in the register, but when he turned around to give the guy his receipt, he was gone!


From PBJ on Facebook.

<Insert self-righteous blurb about others here>


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## DannyMc

davidvel said:


> I agree that Marriott better have a lot of evidence that he stole (or was comping his favorite customers), or they'll be in a heap of legal trouble.
> 
> Assuming of course, the rumor is really the cause for his absence. The timing of the new GM's arrival certainly is interesting, but maybe he saw something improper that a prior GM let pass due to the popularity of Jim.
> 
> People often think they know those that they adore or have a connection to such as sports stars and entertainers only to find out things they never would have believed to be true.



The "new" GM has been at Grande Ocean for over a year.  When I heard him speak in June at the Owner's Forum, he was very interested in having PBJ stay with the bar.


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## jme

davidvel said:


> I agree that Marriott better have a lot of evidence that he stole (or was comping his favorite customers), or they'll be in a heap of legal trouble.
> 
> Assuming of course, the rumor is really the cause for his absence. The timing of the new GM's arrival certainly is interesting, but maybe he saw something improper that a prior GM let pass due to the popularity of Jim.
> 
> People often think they know those that they adore or have a connection to such as sports stars and entertainers only to find out things they never would have believed to be true.



Like I said previously, there's not enough information yet. It's much more than what is known now. But it definitely goes back more than a few months.  I'm not so sure it revolves around that one incident, as has been described differently already by different people. The new GO resort manager is a factor, to whom I alluded in my first comments. Still, speculation would not seem fair. 

I do know that Marriott did not build a decent new bar area for Jim or anyone else, a fact conspicuously evident to owners, and that was a huge  snub....as was also their taking away Jim's previous merchandise agreement.  IMHO, if a pattern of embezzlement was emerging, would he have lasted this long??? (I think not)

But we'll know in the end.  In the meantime I'm not entertaining rumors.



.


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## GreenTea

bw3 said:


> New Marriott management continues to abuse our resort and owners. Marriott has forgotten that they are only management. It might be time to request proposals from other management services. Yes, I mean fire Marriott!!!


Oh good Lord please no.


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## Ty1on

answeeney said:


> Ninety-nine times out of a hundred "failing to ring up a drink" is part of a pattern. The bar tender fails to ring up several drinks per evening and pockets the amounts involved. Bar-managers will be on the lookout for such behaviour and it usually results in instant dismissal for the perpetrator. After all theft is hardly a minor infraction.



Yep, failing to ring up a drink is *theft*.  The customer didn't say Jim didn't charge for the drink, but that he didn't ring it up.  That's theft of cash at the retail price, not just theft of the cost of a free drink given away.

The biggest asset risk of food and beverage is employees stealing from the company, and I don't know of any hospitality employer that would tolerate theft, no matter whether the bartender (or even the guests) thought he was bigger than the resort or not.


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## WBP

jme said:


> It's a much longer and more complicated story than that, and right now it's difficult to get the whole truth. Rumors abound, but there are more serious undertones than just the rumors. When things become more clear, word will travel fast. But I honestly think at this point Jim is gone, and I believe it's been planned for some time.
> 
> All merchandise has been removed, and he's not been allowed to sell his wares on site for a while.  All signage relating to Jim has also been removed from the premises, and his drink recipes are "not available" as such.  The bar has been taken over by confused and unfamiliar Marriott employees.
> 
> Suffice it to say that nearly 100% of owners and guests love Jim and want him at GO for the long term----he's an island icon and institution, & unique to GO----and have rabidly supported him since the beginning, and ousting him *by an individual* because of a petty agenda (and blatant misunderstanding of his value) will not be forgotten or forgiven. A word to the wise, just in case inquisitive eyes are watching this BBS.
> 
> 
> 
> .


Will PoolBar Jim remerge at the new Hilton Grand Vacation Club resort on Hilton Head Island, a few doors down from Marriott's Grande Ocean resort?


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## bw3

This never would have happened with Bob Spear.   If they hire a GM from Courtyard, what do you expect?  When Marriott treats a long-term employee like this, when will owners get the same treatment?


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## davidvel

Ty1on said:


> Yep, failing to ring up a drink is *theft*.  The customer didn't say Jim didn't charge for the drink, but that he didn't ring it up.  That's theft of cash at the retail price, not just theft of the cost of a free drink given away.
> 
> The biggest asset risk of food and beverage is employees stealing from the company, and I don't know of any hospitality employer that would tolerate theft, no matter whether the bartender (or even the guests) thought he was bigger than the resort or not.


On this note, Shadow Ridge no longer accepts cash at any of the pool bars, kids' activities, etc. (room charge or card only). Management said there was too much risk and expense in cash handling, but obviously it gets rid of the "false sale"  theft.


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## tlwmkw

Jme,

Who are the "different" people who have described this incident "differently"?  What do you mean exactly?  Is there another story out there that hasn't been discussed here?  Please let us all know.

We heard rumors about this when we were on HHI recently but no one was talking much (the MVCI people that is)- they just said he isn't there and didn't know when he was coming back. Very vague.

It hasn't been handled very well from the PR perspective.


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## tlwmkw

WJS,

Is the Hilton Grand Vacation Club the building under construction just along from Grande Ocean going towards coligny?

We noticed it when we were there last week but didn't pay too much attention.


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## WBP

tlwmkw said:


> WJS,
> 
> Is the Hilton Grand Vacation Club the building under construction just along from Grande Ocean going towards coligny?
> 
> We noticed it when we were there last week but didn't pay too much attention.



That's it!

It looks like the makings of a modern day Grande Ocean.

Great beach, but I prefer Grande Ocean's closer proximity to Sea Pines, and further distance from Coligny Circle.

I would not be surprised to find Jim there, in fact, I heard rumor that they were going to hire Jim to mix concoctions for clients attending their sales presentations (I assume concoctions, without alcohol).

Best case scenario, barring legitimate cause by Marriott (who I expect will be methodical and calculated in doing their due diligence), Jim is back on post at Grande Ocean, although that new bar is a disappointment.


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## jme

tlwmkw said:


> Jme,
> 
> Who are the "different" people who have described this incident "differently"?  What do you mean exactly?  Is there another story out there that hasn't been discussed here?  Please let us all know.
> 
> We heard rumors about this when we were on HHI recently but no one was talking much (the MVCI people that is)- they just said he isn't there and didn't know when he was coming back. Very vague.
> 
> It hasn't been handled very well from the PR perspective.



Three different sets of friends who were there this past week, only one a TUG member. They relayed second hand reports which were slightly different, none of them eye witnesses.  You know how those "retold" stories take on a new character with each repetition. That's why I'm waiting to see what really happened from official sources. Current Marriott employees have been warned not to talk about it, and Jim was told not to talk about it (in recent weeks and now). He didn't as far as I know. 

That's why it's hard to tell unless someone was an eye witness and also privy to these goings-on, and even then, they didn't know what happened afterward when Jim met with the resort manager (and other unknown people "planted at the bar" for observations) in a special called meeting late in the week.  I emailed former resort manager Bob Spear but no answer yet. He'll have a huge say because he knew Jim well----for a long time----all the while with no problems, at least to my knowledge. Bob was a superb manager and a wonderful person, the best I've known to date from anywhere in the system. 

I'm sure Steve Weisz (CEO of MVW, formerly MVCI, and personal "weeks" owner at Grande Ocean who brought his family there many times, possibly still) must know about it by now.........I might email him too, or either wait for further word from on high.  Right now I don't wish to indict Jim or the resort manager by innuendo. It must play out.

Just a relevant anecdote:  the "new" bar is a joke----totally ergonomically dysfunctional from a bartender's point of view, with very poor storage areas for the supplies needed, and woefully inadequate for the volume of people served daily. 
The description I hear from owners and guests : "it would better suit a fairground as an arcade game kiosk for the bottle-ring toss."



.


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## RLS50

jme said:


> Just a relevant anecdote:  the "new" bar is a joke----totally ergonomically dysfunctional from a bartender's point of view, with very poor storage areas for the supplies needed, and woefully inadequate for the volume of people served daily.
> The description I hear from owners and guests : "it would better suit a fairground as an arcade game kiosk for the bottle-ring toss."
> .


JME,

I guess this is a good time to ask.  Again, we are new owners at Grande Ocean, and so I try not to weigh in too strongly in conversations where some of you guys have been going to Grande Ocean or Barony or whatever for a decade or double that in some cases.  I mostly just ask questions and learn from the answers.

So I don't want to offend or upset anyone, but when I saw the pictures of the new pool bar renovations at Grande Ocean I thought "yuck."   It looks really ugly and not very attractive as far as bar settings go.   It looks like one is hanging out sitting between 2 food trucks in a parking lot or something.

So considering Grande Ocean and Marriott usually has a great track record of doing things really well, whose grand plan was the new bar area?   And who would ever remodel a bar that didn't set the bartenders up for success?

I mean I am not a huge fan of Jon Taffer on Bar Rescue, but I do appreciate the real science he highlights behind how a bar is setup and constructed and how much revenue can be lost or gained based on design and how the bar stations are setup.

Jon Taffer is not the only person in the world that knows this, so how could a company like Marriott, who I consider mostly very intelligent when it comes to understanding customer service, put money behind a bar remodel that appears to have been done so poorly and looks so ugly and with a layout that is not even liked by the bartenders?  How does that happen?   It seems like such an obvious fail...even to the untrained amateur like myself.

Totally JMO here, I wouldn't even have shared my thoughts based on the pictures I have seen if it wasn't for the timing of all of this.


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## jme

RLS50 said:


> JME,
> 
> I guess this is a good time to ask.  Again, we are new owners at Grande Ocean, and so I try not to weigh in too strongly in conversations where some of you guys have been going to Grande Ocean or Barony or whatever for a decade or double that in some cases.  I mostly just ask questions and learn from the answers.
> 
> So I don't want to offend or upset anyone, but when I saw the pictures of the new pool bar renovations at Grande Ocean I thought "yuck."   It looks really ugly and not very attractive as far as bar settings go.   It looks like one is hanging out sitting between 2 food trucks in a parking lot or something.
> 
> So considering Grande Ocean and Marriott usually has a great track record of doing things really well, whose grand plan was the new bar area?   And who would ever remodel a bar that didn't set the bartenders up for success?
> 
> I mean I am not a huge fan of Jon Taffer on Bar Rescue, but I do appreciate the real science he highlights behind how a bar is setup and constructed and how much revenue can be lost or gained based on design and how the bar stations are setup.
> 
> Jon Taffer is not the only person in the world that knows this, so how could a company like Marriott, who I consider mostly very intelligent when it comes to understanding customer service, put money behind a bar remodel that appears to have been done so poorly and looks so ugly and with a layout that is not even liked by the bartenders?  How does that happen?   It seems like such an obvious fail...even to the untrained amateur like myself.
> 
> Totally JMO here, I wouldn't even have shared my thoughts based on the pictures I have seen if it wasn't for the timing of all of this.



You're right about all that. 

I was shocked at the inadequacy there too. 

One thing I do know that influenced the bar endeavor from the beginning, *new bar* construction rules on the island stipulate that any bar structure at a resort not preexisting must be "removable", i.e., on wheels & and not a permanent structure. Immediately that limited things.

So instead of following Jim's well-thought-out plans (even if wheels added for compliance), they came up with their own.  Somebody said they purchased a pre-existing shell structure and tried to conform it best they could, but that's just someone else's opinion---I don't know about that. But it looked awful.

Otherwise, my friend, you have no need to worry, Marriott USUALLY does things very well, better than most, but this is one single solitary instance where they totally blew it. I think they'll have to change it at some point. 

Might have been an attempt to keep costs down, but sheesh, if they want money, build a BETTER bar!  It's a cash cow if nothing else is!!!! Ask any restaurant owner. Does Marriott not know? 

Another anecdote: They also didn't make better allowances for the ever-increasing number of walk-ups "to the bar only" from the beach, which have always been allowed at GO.  The lines were long and getting longer, and it absolutely impeded the timeliness of the OWNERS receiving drinks. All they did was serve from the back side using the same amount of space as before, so in essence nothing was accomplished to address the problem.  It's sometimes taken 20+ minutes to advance to the bar counter to order a drink, and that's not good in the summertime with temps around 100. 

But that's an entirely different can of worms about the walk-ups (who incidentally hang around the pool and use the facilities in spite of the security).  
Personally I think they should be eliminated altogether----the facility is for owners and guests exclusively, and I detest others coming onto the property. 
They also take up space on the new deck and camp out.  All for the sake of extra money. 
(And I hate to say this, but it would be all cash, with no ability to charge to a unit.)  

A nice-sized area is roped off exclusively for the walk-ups--- tables, umbrellas, and chairs included---- but of course they seldom adhere to the policy as specified on the signage. I will admit that they have excellent taste, as GO is undeniably gorgeous and the facility is the best around, but if they want to participate, they should buy in like the rest of us. 

Nevertheless, a real hornet's nest here regarding the whole bar scene discussed in this thread. 

I didn't want to be the one who started the thread, but I knew it was coming since last week. I reluctantly contribute here because we're all still in rumor mode, but I did jump in for the sake of the few little things I do know. 

I sincerely hope that a modicum of wisdom prevails, and that this bar issue, with or without Jim, is resolved in a way beneficial to owners and Marriott alike. Of course I hope it includes Jim.  The likes of him won't be found again. Ironic because he's such a happy and effervescent guy, and enriched the lives of everyone around him.  

One last thing---Welcome to Grande Ocean. You won't be disappointed. Hope to meet you sometime.  It WILL become your home away from home.



.


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## Superchief

bw3 said:


> This never would have happened with Bob Spear.   If they hire a GM from Courtyard, what do you expect?  When Marriott treats a long-term employee like this, when will owners get the same treatment?


From the way JME described the design of the new bar, it appears to be a similar disaster to Courtyard's Bistro's. I stopped staying at Courtyards since the Bistro took the place of the breakfast buffet. 

Maybe MVC management wants to appeal to Millennials, which was their excuse for the Courtyard fiasco.


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## BocaBoy

bw3 said:


> This never would have happened with Bob Spear.   If they hire a GM from Courtyard, what do you expect?  When Marriott treats a long-term employee like this, when will owners get the same treatment?



We really don't know the facts yet so it is dangerous to jump to a conclusion about who is at fault, especially given Marriott's reputation as a great place to work, and where long-term employees are generally treated very well.  My instincts say there is a lot more to this story than we know.  Like Marty, I am not jumping to any conclusions yet.


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## bw3

*Long lines and walk ups*

Don't worry about long lines at a Marriott bar. They all need a bar rescue. Without Jim, you will have mediocre drinks and service as all Marriotts. PBJ was special. That is why you had long lines. I travel the world and stay at Marriott hotels and resorts. I never dine there. And I no longer visit the bar at any of them. Everyone else does it better. Except for PBJs. No comparison. No equal. Period.


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## Luvtoride

*Just visited GO this weekend*

I am in HH and visited GO on Saturday of July 4th weekend.  I had been "alerted" by Jme that there may be some changes at Pool Bar Jim's.  Sure enough, when I walked up to get a drink, I immediately noticed no "drink books" around the bar.  I asked the bartender Kevin where they were and he told me that Jim had "taken them with him".  I asked where Jim had gone and he was obviously hesitant to talk about it in detail but said he was told by Marriott to leave for awhile (suspended?).  I didn't press him for further details but he answered my puzzled look by saying "irreconcilable differences".  
Kevin also said that they are all Marriott Employees, including Jim.
I have to say that the service at the bar and the drinks didn't seems impacted by Jim not being there.  The drinks were still the usual "double size" served in 2 glasses. It did appear that Kevin was training a newer bartender while I watched. 
Later when I went back and asked Kevin about the new bar structure, he said they hated it!  He said it had been a reject for a sandwich shop that Marriott bought and made into a bar. 
When I asked him about the shirts and apparel that Jim normally sold, he said that had been gone since the beginning of the season and that fact was part of the differences he noted earlier.  
Overall, for a holiday weekend day the bar didn't seem nearly as busy as it usually is during any past time I've been there.  Perhaps word is getting out and even the local walk on customers are staying away.
It's a real shame!


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## Quilter

Is GO a resort or a bar?

We're owners at GO and PBJ hasn't impacted our stay to any degree except maybe finding chairs on the sundeck.   It was merely a curiosity because of the hype. Sorry folks, it's not 100% of owners who are outraged.  I'm sure there are many like us that say "oh well". 

Having a bar open to non-guests creates its own set of problems, especially for those who are staying to experience the resort, not the bar.


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## NTP66

If it doesn't matter to you, then why bother replying in this thread? Thanks for your contribution?


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## davidvel

NTP66 said:


> If it doesn't matter to you, then why bother replying in this thread? Thanks for your contribution?


Why not?
It's a different perspective and opinion,  both of which are permitted (invited ) on TUG.


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## NTP66

davidvel said:


> Why not?
> It's a different perspective and opinion,  both of which are permitted (invited ) on TUG.



If this were Reddit, that'd be a prime example of S-posting.


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## Quilter

jme said:


> . . .
> Suffice it to say that nearly 100% of owners and guests love Jim and want him at GO for the long term----.





bw3 said:


> New Marriott management continues to abuse our resort and owners. Marriott has forgotten that they are only management. It might be time to request proposals from other management services. Yes, I mean fire Marriott!!!





NTP66 said:


> There's a better chance that you'll get struck by lightning than there is Jim pocketing cash from a customer. If Jim is gone by the time we arrive at GO in a few weeks, I imagine that nobody in my family will ever go back to the bar.





Superchief said:


> I recall that recently a new GM took over GO. Do you think this has anything to do with the new GM? If so, this would definitely be a clear indication he/she is out of touch with owners' concerns.
> 
> I've only been to GO once and had a chance to enjoy Pool Bar Jim's. This was the only MVC bar I would ever visit except during Happy Hour. I'm sure this resort made a lot of money due to Jim. This is a real shame.





NTP66 said:


> If it doesn't matter to you, then why bother replying in this thread? Thanks for your contribution?



Here's the chain of links at the top of the TUGBBS page:


Timeshare Users Group Online Discussion Forums > Timeshare Resort Systems > Marriott Resort System
Reload this Page Grande Ocean - Pool Bar Jim suspended?!

The first is "Discussion Forums".   Folks I'm don't come to Tug to cause trouble.  In this case I don't agree with the hype over the bar in the first place and I surely don't follow the drama about any changes.   

It's cover-all blanket statements like the ones above that brought out my addition to this discussion:

"nearly 100% of owners and guests"  I'm an owner not to be included in the nearly 100% and with many owners not weighing in here or on Facebook this is just too broad
"struck by lightning . . .no one in my family"  Wow! Drama. . .
"If so, this would definitely be a clear indication he/she is out of touch with owners' concerns."   "This is a real shame."    Speculation and it's my opinion that there are many other things in life that are a real shame far above the closing of PBJ's.


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## Quilter

NTP66 said:


> If this were Reddit, that'd be a prime example of S-posting.



Since I don't follow what you're talking about can you clarify?


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## Pat H

I find it curious that Jim was told not to talk about what happened. Marriott must be holding something over his head. Maybe the promise of a return to his job? In SC employees have no rights. I know that first hand. It's an at-will state and only the federally protected classes have any rights. There is 1 other class that is protected by SC and it's smokers. You can't be fired because you smoke!


----------



## jme

Quilter said:


> Is GO a resort or a bar?
> 
> We're owners at GO and PBJ hasn't impacted our stay to any degree except maybe finding chairs on the sundeck.   It was merely a curiosity because of the hype. Sorry folks, it's not 100% of owners who are outraged.  I'm sure there are many like us that say "oh well".
> 
> Having a bar open to non-guests creates its own set of problems, especially for those who are staying to experience the resort, not the bar.



If you kindly reread my post, I said "nearly 100%", not 100%, which makes a difference. I also said we wish for him to remain, not I was outraged. Somebody else said that. Perhaps many don't avail themselves of Jim's services, *which is fine*.  But the current Pool Bar Jim issue is a big deal, as it provides, in addition to a bar, a great spot for owners to mingle and enjoy each others' families. Barony has a bar, Surfwatch has a bar---"*nearly 100%*" of the newer resorts have them. 

We've met quite a few people there over the years, and many have enjoyed sitting around that area, whether they order drinks or not. My kids love his non-alcoholic drinks, and those have provided great memories, believe it or not. 

Grande Ocean is not a bar, neither is it a pool, a grill, a swing, or a lagoon, but it IS a combination of all of that, and imho, the summation of it all as Grande Ocean Resort makes for a greater "something" than the mere sum of its individual parts.  

My point is that Jim is a big part because of his longevity there. Gregg Russell is a big part of Harbour Town---to a greater degree than Jim, obviously, but nevertheless Jim is a big part of GO.


----------



## GreenTea

In personnel issues, both sides are rarely portrayed on social media.


----------



## Quilter

jme said:


> If you kindly reread my post, I said "nearly 100%"



Yes Marty, and in my last post I used "nearly 100%" when I spoke directly to your quote.   But even with that I'd like to see real numbers.   Nearly 100% seems far to big a stretch.   How many total owners compared to owners (not beach walk-ups) who are weighing in on the matter.   

There's still a bar area and having a different bar tender shouldn't impact the great desire for owners to mingle.


----------



## vacationhopeful

One of my resorts that I regularly have visited has a beach front bar (US based resort and a large chain). The resort is surrounded by private ownership of condos and single family homes.

I went down to this bar WHILE staying at the resort ... the resort had paid entertainment - single guitar-playing female singer THAT night. I (traveling alone) was there about 15 minutes; singer finished, packed up & left. Then I figure out, everyone (25 or more drinkers) at the bar knew everyone else (except me) ... they all had TABs running, bartender knew all their names and drinks, socialized with them, people leaving as they had to work in the AM walking away from resort, etc. NOT one person acknowledged I was alive.
It was worst than neighborhood bars ... they glared at me. 

My resort...and I felt like an uninvited guest to their party...that MY MFs paid for!

Then I got to thinking about it: who would be SUED if they crashed into someone? Who would be footing the bill for falling off the bar stool and needing dentures? And WHY was I paying for the bartender (via my MFs) and the evening singer ... they did NOT give her any tip). And HOW many free drinks did the bartender GIVE AWAY of my (paid for) adult beverages to get a better tip?


----------



## Old Hickory

jme said:


> Suffice it to say that nearly 100% of owners and guests love Jim and want him at GO for the long term----he's an island icon and institution, & unique to GO----and have rabidly supported him since the beginning, and ousting him *by an individual* because of a petty agenda (and blatant misunderstanding of his value) will not be forgotten or forgiven. A word to the wise, just in case inquisitive eyes are watching this BBS.



We're frequent guests to HHI.  Jim's was always _the reason_ to visit the GO pool.


----------



## pedro47

To me Jim was a great asset to the resort and I feel that customer cash tips may has been an issue / problem to the new mgt team. This is a personnel issue and another way to eliminate old times employees.


----------



## Old Hickory

While we choose to stay elsewhere on the island, Jim's made it easy to visit GO as he could bill our own resort.    

I guess CoCo's will get all of our beach bar business.


----------



## Big Matt

I talk to Jim every time I go there.  In March this year he was definitely in a different type of mindset.  The new bar was just installed and merchandise wasn't available.  I wanted a couple T-Shirts and we had to meet off of Marriott property to do the transaction.  That tells me that he's trying to stay within some new set of rules Marriott has imposed on him.  He didn't give me any details, but it was clear that he wasn't happy with some changes.

I don't know this for a fact, but my guess is that he is under some sort of non-compete agreement that won't allow him to set up shop under the same name on Hilton Head.  Just knowing how contracting with vendors work, it makes sense to me.  There are a lot of other beaches in the US and I'll be he shows up somewhere else after a cooling off period.

The dispute on these boards may be a reason for Marriott to get rid of him.  He has a lot of leverage over Marriott just given the popularity he's built up over a long time.  Just look at what's happening now here and on facebook.


----------



## BocaBoy

Pat H said:


> I find it curious that Jim was told not to talk about what happened. Marriott must be holding something over his head. Maybe the promise of a return to his job? In SC employees have no rights. I know that first hand. It's an at-will state and only the federally protected classes have any rights. There is 1 other class that is protected by SC and it's smokers. You can't be fired because you smoke!



It is not curious at all if Jim is getting something in the deal.  Could be severance, could be Marriott's silence on a major violation, could be getting his job back if he is cooperative, could be a lot of things.  It is very common in separation situations to require both sides to not discuss the situation with others.  I would not read anything into it except that this is not a simple issue.


----------



## RLS50

I am not a member of Facebook, nor do I know PBJ, having never been to Grande Ocean in my life (yet).

But I do understand that he has been there forever, is very popular, and is part of the overall Grande Ocean experience for many owners.   This makes total sense to me because my wife and I enjoy visiting our favorite bar (where the specific bartender is a big part of it) for a couple of drinks and some appetizers more than we enjoy going out for formal dining at a restaurant. 

Anyway, I have been casually following the feedback on the Grande Ocean Facebook page about this issue, because I know social media can be quite powerful.  It is interesting that this PBJ issue has now generated almost 20% of the overall ratings on the Grande Ocean Facebook page.   I am not sure how long Grande Ocean has had a Facebook page, but that is a significant volume of feedback in just about 5-6 days on one issue.

Interestingly enough, after silence from Grande Ocean on the issue, they started posting a canned response that says nothing to everyone who posted a comment about it (this is after deleting owner comments in previous days).   I must say, considering I have an overall positive bias for Marriott after using them for business travel for years, this seems really tone deaf and like a poor response.   

Whoever is managing this PBJ issue for Marriott does not seem to be doing a very good job.   They seem to be just making it worse.

I have no idea how after 20+ years this relationship disintegrated so badly.   The back story on this one must be really interesting.   And something Big Matt said in an earlier post I tend to agree with, unfortunately this backlash could mean PBJ won't ever be back.   Even if Senior management at Marriott agreed that PBJ was done wrong by one or more individuals in their middle management layer, the precedent set by allowing PBJ to return and elevating an individual over the corporate brand might not be something they feel comfortable with allowing to happen.

Again, I don't have a strong opinion, only that I am pretty certain this issue has almost nothing to do with the cover story of PBJ failing to ring up a single drink.   The breakdown in the relationship appears to run much deeper than that.


----------



## Superchief

I think this whole issue may be an indication that GM's in the future may be more 'corporate' driven and less sensitive to owner's concerns. The new GM appears to be an important contributor to the escalation of this event. He came from a hotel (not timeshare) management background, so is likely to be unaware of the importance of owner's inputs for resort decisions. 

Several well-respected long-term GM's (including Ocean Pointe) have recently left MVC and are being replaced by those with hotel backgrounds. I don't think this will be a positive trend for owners. Resorts will be run like hotels, and focus will be on what benefits MVC in the short term, rather than the long-term quality and value of ownership at the resort.


----------



## Steve A

I traded into the GO in 2010, 2013, and 2014. I never heard of Pool Bar Jim until this thread.


----------



## tlwmkw

Does anyone know what percentage the trust owns at Grande Ocean?  If they own many weeks then they may not feel that owners concerns are as important since they are significant owners themselves. Maybe they feel that they don't have to pay attention to owners concerns for this reason.

This has been something that concerns me about the Destination Points- all voting and ownership is via MVCI so the weeks owners lose power in the votes and I don't think the points owners get to vote on specific issues regarding individual resorts.

Sorry this is a bit off topic but the MVCI response made me wonder about this.


----------



## Big Matt

Based on the last post, I have a somewhat stupid question.

Are the employees who run the timeshare properties employees of Marriott (the hotel management company) or Marriott Vacations Worldwide (owners of the trust)?


----------



## Miss Marty

*Pool Bar Jim - Bartendar - James Lisenby*

_
Hilton Head Island South Carolina Icon_

http://www.poolbarjims.com/pbj.html


----------



## jimf41

Big Matt said:


> Based on the last post, I have a somewhat stupid question.
> 
> Are the employees who run the timeshare properties employees of Marriott (the hotel management company) or Marriott Vacations Worldwide (owners of the trust)?



They are employed by MVW. However there is a strong tie in with the two companies. They share many benefits like pension plans, medical etc. There might be separate plans but it seems they transfer seamlessly as in the case of managers from one company going to the other. Seniority also seems to transfer from what I've seen.


----------



## Fasttr

tlwmkw said:


> Does anyone know what percentage the trust owns at Grande Ocean?  If they own many weeks then they may not feel that owners concerns are as important since they are significant owners themselves. Maybe they feel that they don't have to pay attention to owners concerns for this reason.
> 
> This has been something that concerns me about the Destination Points- all voting and ownership is via MVCI so the weeks owners lose power in the votes and I don't think the points owners get to vote on specific issues regarding individual resorts.
> 
> Sorry this is a bit off topic but the MVCI response made me wonder about this.



This does not directly answer your question, but provides enough information to conclude that Trust ownership in GO is not much.  dioxide45 keeps track of this, and as far as I know, this was his last update of the total points fed into the trust.  GO is pretty far down the list.  
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1698557&postcount=283


----------



## Superchief

jimf41 said:


> They are employed by MVW. However there is a strong tie in with the two companies. They share many benefits like pension plans, medical etc. There might be separate plans but it seems they transfer seamlessly as in the case of managers from one company going to the other. Seniority also seems to transfer from what I've seen.



Many MVC GM's were there prior to the spinoff, and my observation was most timeshare GM's stayed at MVC resorts much longer than those working in the hotel properties. I also think that the larger resorts attracted GM's with more timeshare experience. I can't think of any MVC who had a GM who came directly from Courtyard, although a few came from large Marriott resort operations. Timeshares are definitely a different animal than hotels.


----------



## Steve A

Made the Island Packet today.

http://www.islandpacket.com/news/business/


----------



## RLS50

Interesting video on Youtube


----------



## davidvel

Steve A said:


> Made the Island Packet today.
> 
> http://www.islandpacket.com/news/business/


It appears the story has been retracted?

Youtube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qiFgbwwQb8


----------



## DannyMc

Steve A said:


> Made the Island Packet today.
> 
> http://www.islandpacket.com/news/business/



I can't find the article.  Can you give more details?


----------



## RLS50

DannyMc said:


> I can't find the article.  Can you give more details?


You'll have to watch the YouTube video (assuming it stays up).   The newspaper article link is still showing via Google search, but the link doesn't work as the article was taken down on the paper's website.


----------



## NYFLTRAVELER

Quilter said:


> I'm sure there are many like us that say "oh well".



Agreed. While you never want to see somebody lose a job, and this gentleman  may be a personable guy (most bartenders are) I am sure Jim (or any other hotel/resort staff member) doesn't sit and think about all of the guests (s)he's served and whether they are returning from year to year.  Knowing somebody who works in the hospitality field at a resort type property, for the most part, once the guests who are there for the week leave the resort, its on to the next guests, out of sight  - out of mind.


----------



## BocaBoy

Superchief said:


> The new GM appears to be an important contributor to the escalation of this event. *He came from a hotel (not timeshare) management background, so is likely to be unaware of the importance of owner's inputs for resort decisions.*



I think most timeshare GM's came from a hotel management background.  And concluding that such a background makes them likely to be unaware of the importance of owner's inputs is in my opinion a complete non sequitur.  Hotel management is generally very focused on the inputs of their guests, much more so than most businesses.


----------



## NTP66

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> Agreed. While you never want to see somebody lose a job, and this gentleman  may be a personable guy (most bartenders are) I am sure Jim (or any other hotel/resort staff member) doesn't sit and think about all of the guests (s)he's served and whether they are returning from year to year.  Knowing somebody who works in the hospitality field at a resort type property, for the most part, once the guests who are there for the week leave the resort, its on to the next guests, out of sight  - out of mind.



You're 100% incorrect about Jim. There are way too many generalizations in this thread.


----------



## SueDonJ

Don has always enjoyed his bike rides down to GO for a beer at the bar.  I asked him what he thinks about all this and his reply is that he wouldn't recognize PBJ if he fell over him, he goes there because the bar is convenient for a rest.  

Over the years there have been quite a few comments from some Marriott owners who don't want any resort amenities to be opened to the public, who don't mind that there aren't restaurants on property because they would attract the public, some who even dislike seeing the sales staff taking tours through the properties.  A few of these comments have come from GO owners so I'm wondering how they feel about MVW curtailing Pool Bar Jim's (the bar, not the man) popularity?

There have been rumblings for months that things were changing at PBJ's, beginning with rumors that he was retiring before plans for the new bar were released and before the new GM came onboard.  It's weird to me that folks are now blaming those things for PBJ's removal.  I'm not surprised at all that MVW made a decision to remove PBJ's influence, even if not the man, from their property.  Why wouldn't they want to re-establish their brand, not his, as the defining brand of that property?


----------



## NTP66

SueDonJ said:


> There have been rumblings for months that things were changing at PBJ's, beginning with rumors that he was retiring before plans for the new bar were released and before the new GM came onboard.  It's weird to me that folks are now blaming those things for PBJ's removal.  I'm not surprised at all that MVW made a decision to remove PBJ's influence, even if not the man, from their property.  Why wouldn't they want to re-establish their brand, not his, as the defining brand of that property?



He has been talking about retiring for 10 years now, if not longer. It's one thing if they want to establish a new identity for the bar (not re-establish, as Jim's bar has been there longer than MGO has), but to go about it this way? It's poor form, and reflects negatively on Marriott.


----------



## SueDonJ

NTP66 said:


> He has been talking about retiring for 10 years now, if not longer. It's one thing if they want to establish a new identity for the bar (not re-establish, as Jim's bar has been there longer than MGO has), but to go about it this way? It's poor form, and reflects negatively on Marriott.



I didn't mean re-establishing the brand only at the bar, but for the entire resort.  Reading all the social media stuff it's fairly obvious that for some folks the bar is primary and the resort is secondary.  Or worse, in Marriott's view, the resort doesn't matter at all.  

No argument that what's happening now is reflecting negatively on Marriott but what's the alternative?  The rumors during the last year have been far more involved than in years past.  It could be that Marriott decided that it wasn't helpful for this to all drag out any longer, that a surgical cut had to happen and sooner is better than later.


----------



## Steve A

The video on the Island a Packet was an interview with a woman complaining about what had happened to PBJ.


----------



## rthib

Steve A said:


> The video on the Island a Packet was an interview with a woman complaining about what had happened to PBJ.



Yep. Same info as here. People miss him and don't know why.


----------



## davidvel

Steve A said:


> The video on the Island a Packet was an interview with a woman complaining about what had happened to PBJ.





rthib said:


> Yep. Same info as here. People miss him and don't know why.


Yes, it appears the article was written from the video.


----------



## Steve A

The article is on-line in the Island Packet 7.8 business section.


----------



## davidvel

Steve A said:


> The article is on-line in the Island Packet 7.8 business section.


This appears to be a revised article, posted today:

http://www.islandpacket.com/news/business/article88500807.html


----------



## jme

davidvel said:


> This appears to be a revised article, posted today:
> 
> http://www.islandpacket.com/news/business/article88500807.html



I'm not a subscriber and it requires such to read the article. Could some who is a subscriber please copy & paste the text here for everyone to read?

Thanks!


----------



## sb2313

Longtime bartender Pool Bar Jim is gone from the Hilton Head Marriott, but why? | The Island Packet

When Kathy McIlvaine visits Hilton Head Island with her husband at the Marriott Grande Ocean Resort, she always heads down to Pool Bar Jim’s.

It’s the place she’s visited since 1994, where she met a group of five families that visit the resort at the same time each year and the only spot on the island where you can order a mango-peach pina colada with fresh fruit of your preference.

It’s also the only bar with Jim Lisenby, the beloved bartender who has operated PBJ’s for more than 20 years and who created a menu with more than 200 frozen and tropical beverage recipes during that time.

Lisenby is known by locals and vacationers alike as a friendly man who knows people by name, McIlvaine said.

Every time she visits the island and sees Lisenby again, he says the same thing: “I’m so glad y’all are back; how long are you staying?”

He’s more than a bartender to us. He knows our life; all these people, he knows their lives.

Kathy McIlvaine, Marriott Grande Ocean Resort timeshare owner

“He’s more than a bartender to us,” she said. “He knows our life; all these people, he knows their lives.”

Lisenby has not been seen at Pool Bar Jim’s since before the July 4th holiday weekend, and McIlvaine, along with many of his regular customers, want to know why.

Gina Haines, a visitor from Roswell, Ga., said when she went down to the bar after checking into her timeshare at the Marriott on July 3, Lisenby was nowhere to be found.

“His menus weren’t out,” she said, adding that merchandise and signage were also missing from the bar. The only proof of the original PBJ’s existence were signs asking public customers not to use the private boardwalk meant for guests.

When Haines asked men working at the bar what was going on, she was told Lisenby had been “shut down for the holiday” and was not told when Lisenby would return.

“It doesn’t sound right at all,” she said of the situation. “It really struck me the wrong way.”

A Facebook post created July 2 on a page dedicated to Pool Bar Jim’s said the bartender had been suspended by Marriott and would not be allowed to serve customers during the holiday. It is unclear whether Lisenby runs the page.

“Pool Bar Jim will NOT be at the Grande Ocean thru 4th of July!” the post reads. “Marriott put him on a suspension based on the fact that some independent ‘person’ said Jim did not ring up his drink! Lie! He most certainly DID!”

Patrons responded to the post and expressed their rage, disappointment and disapproval.

More than 240 comments have been made on the post, as well as 179 reactions and 75 shares.

The page’s admin has commented frequently, thanking commenters for their support and explaining the situation further.

“(The customer) is trying to claim Jim ‘pocketed’ the money!” the post reads. “Marriott said they consider it stealing! Jim did NOT take the money, he rang up the drink and put the money in the register, but when he turned around to give the guy his receipt, he was gone!”

Commenters said they had known Lisenby for years and did not believe the bartender was capable of the act.

People began to post pictures they had taken with Lisenby during their stay, letters they had sent to Marriott representatives and information about how to contact the general manager of the hotel, Massimo Santangelo. Threats to boycott Marriott, withhold patronage at the bar, protest and even give up timeshares ensued.

One commenter compared the suspension to kicking Batman out of Gotham.

Christi Wagner, whose husband has frequented PBJ’s for 20 years, posted a picture of a sign her 7-year-old son made in protest and taped to a table at the Marriott’s pool. Her sister-in-law, Sara Wagner Robb, posted a similar photo.

“He was really wanting a (nonalcoholic) drink from Pool Bar Jim’s, too,” Wagner said of her son. “It was on his beach wish list, but we are boycotting until Jim is back.”

She also said she noticed that lines at the bar were shorter.

Ed Kinney, Global Vice President of Corporate Affairs and Communications for Marriott Vacations Worldwide, said the bar was open and operating.

“People are always looking for something fresh and cool to drink,” he said. “That’s one of the things we continue to offer.”

When asked if business had declined at the bar due to Lisenby’s absence, Kinney said he couldn’t imagine any business on the island slowing down during the Fourth of July.

Kinney said he could not comment on Lisenby’s absence, whether he had been suspended and if and when he would return to the bar as an associate of a Marriott operation.

The Island Packet called the front desk at the Marriott Grande Ocean Resort on Friday. When asked if Lisenby was working at the bar, the Marriott representative hung up.

In regard to the claims and comments made on Facebook, Kinney said social media often stirs “speculation and innuendo.”

“As you can imagine, social media can create a lot of misinformation,” he said.

Haines said she never saw or heard anything to imply a sour relationship between Lisenby and Marriott, but that what she had heard recently was “disappointing and surprising.”

“He’s been here for forever ... he’s an institution,” she said. “I hate to see the island lose its culture. If this turns out to be the story I think it is, ... I would be really disappointed in Marriott.”

Two attempts to reach Lisenby on Thursday and two additional attempts on Friday were unsuccessful.

It is unclear when or if he will return to Pool Bar Jim’s.


----------



## davidvel

jme said:


> I'm not a subscriber and it requires such to read the article. Could some who is a subscriber please copy & paste the text here for everyone to read?
> 
> Thanks!


I'm not a subscriber but it shows up fine. Maybe clear your cookies? Not sure it would be kosher to re-post an _entire_ copyrighted article here.


----------



## sb2313

davidvel said:


> I'm not a subscriber but it shows up fine. Maybe clear your cookies? Not sure it would be kosher to re-post an _entire_ copyrighted article here.



Well if it's not, I apologize as I meant no harm and mods are more than welcome to delete as I'm sure Marty had a chance to read it by now anyways!


----------



## jme

sb2313 said:


> Longtime bartender Pool Bar Jim is gone from the Hilton Head Marriott, but why? | The Island Packet
> 
> When Kathy McIlvaine visits Hilton Head Island with her husband at the Marriott Grande Ocean Resort, she always heads down to Pool Bar Jim’s.
> 
> It’s the place she’s visited since 1994, where she met a group of five families that visit the resort at the same time each year and the only spot on the island where you can order a mango-peach pina colada with fresh fruit of your preference.
> 
> It’s also the only bar with Jim Lisenby, the beloved bartender who has operated PBJ’s for more than 20 years and who created a menu with more than 200 frozen and tropical beverage recipes during that time.
> 
> Lisenby is known by locals and vacationers alike as a friendly man who knows people by name, McIlvaine said.
> 
> Every time she visits the island and sees Lisenby again, he says the same thing: “I’m so glad y’all are back; how long are you staying?”
> 
> He’s more than a bartender to us. He knows our life; all these people, he knows their lives.
> 
> Kathy McIlvaine, Marriott Grande Ocean Resort timeshare owner
> 
> “He’s more than a bartender to us,” she said. “He knows our life; all these people, he knows their lives.”
> 
> Lisenby has not been seen at Pool Bar Jim’s since before the July 4th holiday weekend, and McIlvaine, along with many of his regular customers, want to know why.
> 
> Gina Haines, a visitor from Roswell, Ga., said when she went down to the bar after checking into her timeshare at the Marriott on July 3, Lisenby was nowhere to be found.
> 
> “His menus weren’t out,” she said, adding that merchandise and signage were also missing from the bar. The only proof of the original PBJ’s existence were signs asking public customers not to use the private boardwalk meant for guests.
> 
> When Haines asked men working at the bar what was going on, she was told Lisenby had been “shut down for the holiday” and was not told when Lisenby would return.
> 
> “It doesn’t sound right at all,” she said of the situation. “It really struck me the wrong way.”
> 
> A Facebook post created July 2 on a page dedicated to Pool Bar Jim’s said the bartender had been suspended by Marriott and would not be allowed to serve customers during the holiday. It is unclear whether Lisenby runs the page.
> 
> “Pool Bar Jim will NOT be at the Grande Ocean thru 4th of July!” the post reads. “Marriott put him on a suspension based on the fact that some independent ‘person’ said Jim did not ring up his drink! Lie! He most certainly DID!”
> 
> Patrons responded to the post and expressed their rage, disappointment and disapproval.
> 
> More than 240 comments have been made on the post, as well as 179 reactions and 75 shares.
> 
> The page’s admin has commented frequently, thanking commenters for their support and explaining the situation further.
> 
> “(The customer) is trying to claim Jim ‘pocketed’ the money!” the post reads. “Marriott said they consider it stealing! Jim did NOT take the money, he rang up the drink and put the money in the register, but when he turned around to give the guy his receipt, he was gone!”
> 
> Commenters said they had known Lisenby for years and did not believe the bartender was capable of the act.
> 
> People began to post pictures they had taken with Lisenby during their stay, letters they had sent to Marriott representatives and information about how to contact the general manager of the hotel, Massimo Santangelo. Threats to boycott Marriott, withhold patronage at the bar, protest and even give up timeshares ensued.
> 
> One commenter compared the suspension to kicking Batman out of Gotham.
> 
> Christi Wagner, whose husband has frequented PBJ’s for 20 years, posted a picture of a sign her 7-year-old son made in protest and taped to a table at the Marriott’s pool. Her sister-in-law, Sara Wagner Robb, posted a similar photo.
> 
> “He was really wanting a (nonalcoholic) drink from Pool Bar Jim’s, too,” Wagner said of her son. “It was on his beach wish list, but we are boycotting until Jim is back.”
> 
> She also said she noticed that lines at the bar were shorter.
> 
> Ed Kinney, Global Vice President of Corporate Affairs and Communications for Marriott Vacations Worldwide, said the bar was open and operating.
> 
> “People are always looking for something fresh and cool to drink,” he said. “That’s one of the things we continue to offer.”
> 
> When asked if business had declined at the bar due to Lisenby’s absence, Kinney said he couldn’t imagine any business on the island slowing down during the Fourth of July.
> 
> Kinney said he could not comment on Lisenby’s absence, whether he had been suspended and if and when he would return to the bar as an associate of a Marriott operation.
> 
> The Island Packet called the front desk at the Marriott Grande Ocean Resort on Friday. When asked if Lisenby was working at the bar, the Marriott representative hung up.
> 
> In regard to the claims and comments made on Facebook, Kinney said social media often stirs “speculation and innuendo.”
> 
> “As you can imagine, social media can create a lot of misinformation,” he said.
> 
> Haines said she never saw or heard anything to imply a sour relationship between Lisenby and Marriott, but that what she had heard recently was “disappointing and surprising.”
> 
> “He’s been here for forever ... he’s an institution,” she said. “I hate to see the island lose its culture. If this turns out to be the story I think it is, ... I would be really disappointed in Marriott.”
> 
> Two attempts to reach Lisenby on Thursday and two additional attempts on Friday were unsuccessful.
> 
> It is unclear when or if he will return to Pool Bar Jim’s.



Thanks so much for posting that.  Appreciate it!!!!! 

It is the Island Packet's policy to require a subscription or a contribution before individual non-subscribers can view things or read articles, especially archived articles. The same "pop-up" to subscribe shows up each time I try, and does for others. 

(It has nothing to do with cookies. I've tried to view a childhood friend's obituary for several days on Island Packet and cannot. He was Phil Henry, co-owner of Jump & Phil's, and we first met at beginning of 5th grade when we were 11, and went to school together until after high school. He died last October after a "fall at home" and the ensuing 5-week hospitalization.  Saw him about 1.5 years ago, thankfully, and we had a great reacquaintance after many years. His twin sister was my sweetheart for several years beginning in 5th grade.  Sad about his passing....he had a huge following.)


----------



## sb2313

I just like their Facebook page and that gives me access if that is an option for you?


----------



## NYFLTRAVELER

_Originally Posted by NYFLTRAVELER  
Agreed. While you never want to see somebody lose a job, and this gentleman may be a personable guy (most bartenders are) I am sure Jim (or any other hotel/resort staff member) doesn't sit and think about all of the guests (s)he's served and whether they are returning from year to year. Knowing somebody who works in the hospitality field at a resort type property, for the most part, once the guests who are there for the week leave the resort, its on to the next guests, out of sight - out of mind._



NTP66 said:


> You're 100% incorrect about Jim. There are way too many generalizations in this thread.



Why am I "100% incorrect" about Jim?


----------



## Big Matt

I don't understand why so many people on this post have negative feelings toward Jim.

I've read every thread and as the post goes on and on it seems that each poster is digging in their heals and some are for Jim and those are against.  i think in reality people are just arguing.  

I know this guy and he's as nice as can be.  Let's leave it alone and wait to see where he ends up.  Dragging his name through the mud just to make your own point is lousy.

Thanks.


----------



## NTP66

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> _Originally Posted by NYFLTRAVELER
> Agreed. While you never want to see somebody lose a job, and this gentleman may be a personable guy (most bartenders are) I am sure Jim (or any other hotel/resort staff member) doesn't sit and think about all of the guests (s)he's served and whether they are returning from year to year. Knowing somebody who works in the hospitality field at a resort type property, for the most part, once the guests who are there for the week leave the resort, its on to the next guests, out of sight - out of mind._
> 
> 
> 
> Why am I "100% incorrect" about Jim?



You're sure you know something (anything?) about somebody you've never met, and you're asking why you're wrong? Does this seriously need to be spelled out?


----------



## SueDonJ

Big Matt said:


> I don't understand why so many people on this post have negative feelings toward Jim.
> 
> I've read every thread and as the post goes on and on it seems that each poster is digging in their heals and some are for Jim and those are against.  i think in reality people are just arguing.
> 
> I know this guy and he's as nice as can be.  Let's leave it alone and wait to see where he ends up.  Dragging his name through the mud just to make your own point is lousy.
> 
> Thanks.



I don't understand this comment.  If Pool Bar Jim were being insulted or ridiculed here then it would make sense to ask for that to stop, but that's not happening.  His name isn't being "dragged through the mud" as far as I can see.  People are questioning why his supporters are as devoted as they are, but anybody who doesn't want to answer those questions can ignore them.

As long as the TUG Posting Rules are being followed everybody is free to share whatever opinions they have on the topic.


----------



## dioxide45

I don't own at Grand Ocean, I don't know Jim and I have never visited, but it does seem that some are passionate about this.

We will probably never know the reason why Jim is not there at the moment. It seems that he may not be back, and if that is the case, we may never know the real reason. Was there theft or not ringing drinks? Possible, could it have been going on for years, also possible. Often changes in an organization will turn up these kinds of things. What one person doesn't see or turns a blind eye to will not be overlooked by someone else. Always wonder why when a new manager takes over a team some team members leave or are pushed out. Could be that the new manager didn't like them or the new manager wasn't willing to overlook the what the previous one did. In some companies, certain employees handling money are required to take at least five consecutive days of vacation. This allows the company to see possible abnormalities in the flow of money.

Sometimes employees turn to theft when they don't think they are getting what they think they deserve. Was the bartender unhappy with the new bar or perhaps a new arrangement that had been made? Did he start to think the company didn't respect him any longer?

I find it doubtful that from a single complaint the bartender would be suspended. If it was about a receipt not being given, it would be very easy to prove that there was a sale rung in the register. It would have to take an ongoing pattern of something like this or it at least being previously suspected to warrant this kind of action.

I obviously don't know the answer and am not trying to say that there was theft happening, just feeding off the comments already made in this thread and providing additional insight on why something like this could happen shortly after a management change or change in the situation at GO.


----------



## Quilter

dioxide45 said:


> I find it doubtful that from a single complaint the bartender would be suspended.



Have you ever told a potential employer "Let's see if what I have to offer works for you and see if what you have to offer works for me"?

I have.

Seems Jim and Marriott could no longer come to an agreement.

Like the "Cheers" program the patrons of Jim's were drawn because someone of perceived importance recognized and catered to them.


----------



## Big Matt

Since you don't understand my comment, let me make it clear to you.

In this thread people have stated that he was stealing money.  Others have implied that there may be a pattern of stealing.  

Absolutely nobody except for Jim and Marriott know what the real story is including me.

I understand that people can post what they want, but personal attacks against people aren't cool in my book.  That's my opinion.



SueDonJ said:


> I don't understand this comment.  If Pool Bar Jim were being insulted or ridiculed here then it would make sense to ask for that to stop, but that's not happening.  His name isn't being "dragged through the mud" as far as I can see.  People are questioning why his supporters are as devoted as they are, but anybody who doesn't want to answer those questions can ignore them.
> 
> As long as the TUG Posting Rules are being followed everybody is free to share whatever opinions they have on the topic.


----------



## DannyMc

Big Matt said:


> Absolutely nobody except for Jim and Marriott know what the real story is including me.



I agree with you Big Matt.  There is far too much speculation in this discussion.


----------



## dioxide45

DannyMc said:


> I agree with you Big Matt.  There is far too much speculation in this discussion.



Much of many discussions on the forum are speculation. Facts usually come out, but there is nothing wrong with speculation.


----------



## NYFLTRAVELER

_Originally Posted by NYFLTRAVELER 
Agreed. While you never want to see somebody lose a job, and this gentleman may be a personable guy (most bartenders are) I am sure Jim (or any other hotel/resort staff member) doesn't sit and think about all of the guests (s)he's served and whether they are returning from year to year. Knowing somebody who works in the hospitality field at a resort type property, for the most part, once the guests who are there for the week leave the resort, its on to the next guests, out of sight - out of mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NTP66  View Post
You're 100% incorrect about Jim. There are way too many generalizations in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYFLTRAVELER 
Why am I "100% incorrect" about Jim?



NTP66 said:



			You're sure you know something (anything?) about somebody you've never met, and you're asking why you're wrong? Does this seriously need to be spelled out?
		
Click to expand...

_
First of all, if you read my original response I wrote "While you never want to see somebody lose a job, and this gentleman may be a personable guy (most bartenders are)...."  

but nevertheless, I agree with Sue's post......   

My point was - unless you are a friend or relative - do you really think any staff at a hotel/resort, cruise ship, restaurant or even a post office for that matter is really thinking about a guest/customer once they leave?  

Sure you may get a smile, a "how y'all doing" or even a welcome back hug when you return to the same place again (and of course its a nice feeling) but once you leave there after that visit, its out of sight out of mind for the most part.


----------



## tlwmkw

I find it funny that the woman in the video clip above says that going to PBJ's was the highlight of her trip to MGO. We usually steer clear of the area because it is so crowded and busy- different strokes for different folks.

I hope he can find a new location and can then have a bar where he has more control.

As far as reasons why he left or was suspended we may never know the full truth. When there is a lack of transparency and a void of information people will fill the void with guess work and assumptions. That is now happening. I'm surprised there hasn't been any official statement made by either Jim or Marriott. Sounds like the PR people were caught on the wrong foot here and Marriott didn't realize there would be such a fuss made.


----------



## answeeney

Sure there is speculation on this thread but one known fact seems to be that Jim was accused of failing to ring through a drink (a heinous crime in the bartending world). The Jim defenders seem to be speculating on the basis that they think he is a nice guy and they spent long hours chatting to him (while the rest if us have been waiting to get served) that Marriott must have used a spurious and unsubstantiated accusation to get rid if him. Some others are speculating that Marriott may have some extra information that allowed them to act.

Btw, I was at GO last year and  pool bar Jims is just not that good. It was overcrowded, the service was terrible (probably because Jim was too busy chatting), the drinks were worse and I much prefer the bars at pretty much every other Marriott resort I have ever been to.


----------



## bw3

*Ownership question*



tlwmkw said:


> Does anyone know what percentage the trust owns at Grande Ocean?  If they own many weeks then they may not feel that owners concerns are as important since they are significant owners themselves. Maybe they feel that they don't have to pay attention to owners concerns for this reason.
> 
> This has been something that concerns me about the Destination Points- all voting and ownership is via MVCI so the weeks owners lose power in the votes and I don't think the points owners get to vote on specific issues regarding individual resorts.
> 
> Sorry this is a bit off topic but the MVCI response made me wonder about this.


I think you are right on topic. If MVCI gets to vote for Board members, then owners have lost all power. Management would have the Board in their pocket. Management could bring in an unqualified GM from Courtyard with no repurcussions. Owners can't fire the GM. And they can't fire Marriott. The power of management would be completely unchecked. 

Management can fire a beloved employee for one complaint and they do not have to answer to anyone. Power corrupts.


----------



## dioxide45

bw3 said:


> I think you are right on topic. If MVCI gets to vote for Board members, then owners have lost all power. Management would have the Board in their pocket. Management could bring in an unqualified GM from Courtyard with no repurcussions. Owners can't fire the GM. And they can't fire Marriott. The power of management would be completely unchecked.
> 
> Management can fire a beloved employee for one complaint and they do not have to answer to anyone. Power corrupts.



I don't think the board has a say in who the GM is at a resort anyway. It is left up to the management company. In this case it is Marriott Vacation Club. They get to pick who will manage each resort, not the BOD. Though once Marriott has enough units in the trust, they have enough votes to control who sits on the board and obviously have the power to hold on to management at a resort or drop it at will.


----------



## Superchief

Although I enjoyed PBJ when I visited GO last year and can see why it is an important asset to owners at the resort, my bigger concern is what caused this to happen. It appears to likely be linked to the new GM and management policies. If Jim was truly 'stealing' or giving away too many drinks, then the action is justified. If this was a power trip by Marriott or the new GM to do things their way in spite of owners' wishes, then I have a problem. 

In the corporate world, I've observed many power hungry new managers get rid of highly competent people because they were either a perceived threat or would challenge flawed new policies. This is more likely to occur with inexperienced managers. IMO, there is a big difference between managing a Courtyard (mid-price business hotel with limited facilities) and managing the most popular timeshare on Hilton Head. Owners wishes may conflict with other guest or MVC management wishes, but they need to be considered in management decisions. I'm curious whether there has also been significant turnover in GO staff. If so, this would be an indication of a GM or MVC problem.

Recently several long-term GM's have left MVC, and this concerns me that MVC management policies may be changing in a way that will negatively impact owners.


----------



## MOXJO7282

NYFLTRAVELER said:


> _Originally Posted by NYFLTRAVELER
> Agreed. While you never want to see somebody lose a job, and this gentleman may be a personable guy (most bartenders are) I am sure Jim (or any other hotel/resort staff member) doesn't sit and think about all of the guests (s)he's served and whether they are returning from year to year. Knowing somebody who works in the hospitality field at a resort type property, for the most part, once the guests who are there for the week leave the resort, its on to the next guests, out of sight - out of mind.
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by NTP66  View Post
> You're 100% incorrect about Jim. There are way too many generalizations in this thread.
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by NYFLTRAVELER
> Why am I "100% incorrect" about Jim?
> 
> _
> 
> First of all, if you read my original response I wrote "While you never want to see somebody lose a job, and this gentleman may be a personable guy (most bartenders are)...."
> 
> but nevertheless, I agree with Sue's post......
> 
> My point was - unless you are a friend or relative - do you really think any staff at a hotel/resort, cruise ship, restaurant or even a post office for that matter is really thinking about a guest/customer once they leave?
> 
> Sure you may get a smile, a "how y'all doing" or even a welcome back hug when you return to the same place again (and of course its a nice feeling) but once you leave there after that visit, its out of sight out of mind for the most part.



You know some people do put their heart and soul into their work and do in fact make close relationships with their patrons that are repeat customers for years.  I've owned at the GO for 10 years but take pride in making my own tasty frozen cocktail so never patronized the pool bar but I've seem Jim and he seemed very dedicated to his patrons and if a good man like Marty (JME) says good things about Jim that is enough for me to know that he is a man of character so it's most likely a difference of opinion from a business perspective that is the basis of the split.


----------



## RLS50

Regardless of whether one knows PBJ or not, or how one feels about the situation, it is pretty fascinating to see the social media firestorm that this has generated.

On the Grande Ocean FB page, around 20% of their total ratings are now related to this issue.  In a week.  That is significant volume of negative feedback from a customer base over a single issue.

It is also interesting that Marriott's response strategy seems to have changed a couple of times over the past week, which suggests they may have been unprepared for the level of negativity generated by this situation.

This is becoming a case study in resort management do's and don'ts.


----------



## burg1121

As they say each to his or her own. I like you have been to many Marriott bars.
I can't remember any that were better for frozen libations.  That's not to say that I didn't enjoy the others. I hope the new bar will use the same recipes and keep the same drink size. Jim will be missed but life will go on. It would be great if he opens a bar at the Hilton payback is a B.


----------



## disneymom1

The Marriott/Pool Bar Jim backlash continues now with Trip Advisor getting 1 and 2 star reviews for Grande Ocean!   Apparently, Pool Bar Jim has a VERY loyal following and there are some very unhappy owners/patrons.  I have only been to Grande Ocean once and my kids and I enjoyed Jim's special drinks, as they are a cut above the commercial Oasis drinks served at other resorts.  My husband didn't share our appreciation, but his drink of choice is a regular coffee, whether is be from Starbucks, Dunkin' Donuts or McDonalds.  To him, a bar is a bar, so I have an appreciation of both sides.  Some owners have known Jim for a long time and look forward to seeing him every year while enjoying his beverages, as that was an important part of their vacation experience.

Whatever camp you are in, it does not benefit MVC or any MVC owner to have one of our top resorts be given such poor reviews on Trip Advisor.  Jim's loyal fans appear frustrated that Marriott has only responded with silence or canned generic responses.  Hopefully, Marriott and/or Jim will resolve this matter quickly and amicably.  Currently, Grande Ocean is ranked #3 on Trip Advisor and hopefully, it will remain.


----------



## Luvtoride

Maybe all this will make getting a reservation at GO a bit easier (I doubt it) with points or thru a trade....it's still going to be a very tough resort to get in to!


----------



## Old Hickory

DannyMc said:


> I agree with you Big Matt.  There is far too much speculation in this discussion.




+1.  TUG is not the place.   Fakebook is.


----------



## SueDonJ

Old Hickory said:


> +1.  TUG is not the place.   Fakebook is.



TUG is also a place to discuss anything related to timeshares as long as the TUG Posting Rules are followed.  There isn't anything in this thread that doesn't conform to those rules.

Quoting things posted on other sites is also okay if the source is acknowledged.  The newspaper article reprinted here has been credited to the Island Packet; the linked video has been credited correctly; the direct quote that spurned allegations of theft has been credited directly to Pool Bar Jim's own Facebook page (which he is able to edit freely if he's unhappy with any content.)

I understand why some GO owners are upset with the MVW/PBJ controversy but unless TUG Posting Rules are not followed, there is no reason to stifle related discussion on this forum.  As always, readers are free to choose whether to participate or not.


----------



## pedro47

I feel Marriott Mgt Team is reading this thread and is going to take a very hard line on this matter/problem.


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> I don't own at Grand Ocean, I don't know Jim and I have never visited, but it does seem that some are passionate about this.
> 
> We will probably never know the reason why Jim is not there at the moment. It seems that he may not be back, and if that is the case, we may never know the real reason. Was there theft or not ringing drinks? Possible, could it have been going on for years, also possible. Often changes in an organization will turn up these kinds of things. What one person doesn't see or turns a blind eye to will not be overlooked by someone else. Always wonder why when a new manager takes over a team some team members leave or are pushed out. Could be that the new manager didn't like them or the new manager wasn't willing to overlook the what the previous one did. In some companies, certain employees handling money are required to take at least five consecutive days of vacation. This allows the company to see possible abnormalities in the flow of money.
> 
> Sometimes employees turn to theft when they don't think they are getting what they think they deserve. Was the bartender unhappy with the new bar or perhaps a new arrangement that had been made? Did he start to think the company didn't respect him any longer?
> 
> I find it doubtful that from a single complaint the bartender would be suspended. If it was about a receipt not being given, it would be very easy to prove that there was a sale rung in the register. It would have to take an ongoing pattern of something like this or it at least being previously suspected to warrant this kind of action.
> 
> I obviously don't know the answer and am not trying to say that there was theft happening, just feeding off the comments already made in this thread and providing additional insight on why something like this could happen shortly after a management change or change in the situation at GO.



It's also possible that the GM was changed at Grande Ocean specifically to "clean house" - it's common for that to happen when a business doesn't want a long-time valued employee to be blamed when upper management makes decisions that the employee must enact.  If MVW has had changes slated in the PBJ arrangement for some time (for whatever reasons) maybe they suggested that GM Spears make a move so as not to be denigrated by owners for management's unilateral decision?

I always knew PBJ was open to the public but until these last few months of social media speculation I didn't realize how many non-guests were routinely on property.  I wonder how many GO guests have complained about that.  Maybe enough to spur a management decision that, obviously, isn't welcomed by all owners?


----------



## jme

SueDonJ said:


> It's also possible that the GM was changed at Grande Ocean specifically to "clean house" - it's common for that to happen when a business doesn't want a long-time valued employee to be blamed when upper management makes decisions that the employee must enact.  If MVW has had changes slated in the PBJ arrangement for some time (for whatever reasons) maybe they suggested that GM Spears make a move so as not to be denigrated by owners for management's unilateral decision?
> 
> I always knew PBJ was open to the public but until these last few months of social media speculation I didn't realize how many non-guests were routinely on property.  I wonder how many GO guests have complained about that.  Maybe enough to spur a management decision that, obviously, isn't welcomed by all owners?



wow, talk about speculation..........I think we need to wait and see what transpired. Might be a while, who knows. 

Bob Spear's "making a move" to head up the western division of Marriott resorts is hardly something done if they simply wanted to get rid of a bartender. Big overkill.  

In your scenario, a letter of explanation to owners would have been the only appropriate thing required, and I think it would have been accepted-----again IF IF IF ........


----------



## SueDonJ

jme said:


> wow, talk about speculation..........I think we need to wait and see what transpired. Might be a while, who knows.
> 
> Bob Spear's "making a move" to head up the western division of Marriott resorts is hardly something done if they simply wanted to get rid of a bartender. Big overkill.
> 
> In your scenario, a letter of explanation to owners would have been the only appropriate thing required, and I think it would have been accepted-----again IF IF IF ........



Of course it's speculation, Marty, my post and dioxide's to which I was responding; that's the reason most of it is phrased as questions.  

I really don't get the objection to speculating about this one issue.  We speculate about everything!  You said yourself that you're hearing different "facts" from different people, so it seems that nobody except PBJ and MVW knows the entire story.  But that hasn't stopped PBJ's friends from claiming all over social media - enough to get the local press involved which is saying something - that he is completely innocent and MVW is completely at fault.  Aren't they speculating?

As yet I don't see anyone who has claimed as forcefully that PBJ is actually at fault, despite the various swirling rumors and the speculative nature of this and other online discussions.  If it happens on TUG that he's directly accused of something by someone who can't prove the accusation, I'll happily edit that post.  Until then, it's business as usual according to TUG Posting Rules.


----------



## jme

SueDonJ said:


> Of course it's speculation, Marty, my post and dioxide's to which I was responding; that's the reason most of it is phrased as questions.
> 
> I really don't get the objection to speculating about this one issue.  We speculate about everything!  You said yourself that you're hearing different "facts" from different people, so it seems that nobody except PBJ and MVW knows the entire story.  But that hasn't stopped PBJ's friends from claiming all over social media - enough to get the local press involved which is saying something - that he is completely innocent and MVW is completely at fault.  Aren't they speculating?
> 
> As yet I don't see anyone who has claimed as forcefully that PBJ is actually at fault, despite the various swirling rumors and the speculative nature of this and other online discussions.  If it happens on TUG that he's directly accused of something by someone who can't prove the accusation, I'll happily edit that post.  Until then, it's business as usual according to TUG Posting Rules.



Posting rules, posting rules, posting rules......

The law, the law, the law......

Whatever .....

Respectfully, I just thought the item about Bob Spear leaving HH with his family to take a position out west to avoid taking the hit was a bit much. I feel that demeans his most impressive advancement, and I think more of Bob. Equally, I don't think Massimo's tenure to date can be reduced to the level of a guided missile. He too has invested his all in his new endeavor at GO, and we owe him more than that. Something happened that has caused pain for all sides. (Especially for Jim, who has been accused of criminal activity by some via speculation---thinking that 1+1 always = 2.)

Your comments phrased as a questions, yes, but both begging a scenario akin to something out of the CIA archives or maybe the next series on Netflix. At this point, every bit of speculation offered by anyone is fodder for even more embellishment, as each story tends to gain momentum.  We simply don't know much at all, so why start something like that, however innocently you meant it? 

Many others outside of TUG have made impulsive accusations and counter-accusations on social media, yes. We can't control that, and it's unfortunate.  

However, I don't think that is what TUG is about or should be about. I don't want this thread or conversation to get away from us. My point in addressing  you is simply that what is "legal" isn't always right. 

I have heard many things about this issue at GO, but I haven't passed them on because as I said initially, I think it's more complicated and it'll take time to get the truth, to which I am not now privy. I'm not that important. 

I haven't shared any "facts" I've heard, only that I heard a few, and a lot were  contradictory. Right now only management and Jim know the facts, and both are sworn to nondisclosure. 

For HH it's a big story, I guess. But my feeling? It does involve several good men, and for that reason it's my personal opinion that speculation has the inherent potential to do damage, intended or not. 

This much I do know---we all love each other here, right?  So instead of going back and forth, let's sit on it, and lift a glass at home to Pool Bar Jim, wherever he is. He's devoted his life to this, and he and his family are undoubtedly hurting.




.


----------



## NTP66

If Jim leaves, it'll be interesting to see what their revenue stream looks like, given that PBJ is the highest grossing bar in the entire Marriott brand (fact, not opinion).


----------



## GreenTea

NTP66 said:


> If Jim leaves, it'll be interesting to see what their revenue stream looks like, given that PBJ is the highest grossing bar in the entire Marriott brand (fact, not opinion).


He is gone, right?

I'd get a cocktail if he fixed it.  I'd get one if anyone fixed it.


----------



## Superchief

NTP66 said:


> If Jim leaves, it'll be interesting to see what their revenue stream looks like, given that PBJ is the highest grossing bar in the entire Marriott brand (fact, not opinion).



Based on my experience, I expect it will decline significantly especially if they don't maintain the standard of making everything from fresh fruits. I own five weeks and stay 2-3 weeks per year at MVC resorts, often with other family members. Since I am a wine drinker primarily, I typically only have a beer or two during happy hours at MVC resorts. PBJ was different. The drinks were a special treat for adults and children(virgin versions) because they were made with fresh and flavorful ingredients. Most MVC bars are only busy during happy hours, but PBJ was busy almost all the time. I don't recall it even having a happy hour. The drinks weren't cheap but were worth the money. 

I doubt that quality standards will be maintained and it will become just another MVC bar. It will have to rely on happy hours and drink specials to generate any business.


----------



## NTP66

We won't be at Grande Ocean for a few more weeks, but they've already begun whittling the drink menu (unable to use Jim's, obviously) to the bare necessities. Our usual hefty bar tab will be no more.


----------



## rthib

*Conspiracy Theory*

So, Grande Ocean is a great location with a lot of pre points owners.
So not a lot of availability for points trade.

So, knowing that Pool Bar Jim was popular with owners they conspire to get rid of him.

To keep up bar profit, they decrease drink selection and use standard ingredients.

Now longtime owners will rent or trade their week because place not as special.

So now they have people who don't know better staying, so they can sell the high profit drinks and also have more folks to sell points.


----------



## MOXJO7282

rthib said:


> Now longtime owners will rent or trade their week because place not as special.



Would someone really think because the pool bar changed management the place isn't as special?  I can't believe many would feel that way but maybe a few.


----------



## dioxide45

Superchief said:


> Based on my experience, I expect it will decline significantly especially if they don't maintain the standard of making everything from fresh fruits. I own five weeks and stay 2-3 weeks per year at MVC resorts, often with other family members. Since I am a wine drinker primarily, I typically only have a beer or two during happy hours at MVC resorts. PBJ was different. The drinks were a special treat for adults and children(virgin versions) because they were made with fresh and flavorful ingredients. Most MVC bars are only busy during happy hours, but PBJ was busy almost all the time. I don't recall it even having a happy hour. The drinks weren't cheap but were worth the money.
> 
> I doubt that quality standards will be maintained and it will become just another MVC bar. It will have to rely on happy hours and drink specials to generate any business.



Bring in the Island Oasis. I actually love that stuff.


----------



## disneymom1

Hope I'm posting this correctly according to TUG rules.
Saw this post on Facebook tonight on Grande Ocean's page.

"Nancie Turner reviewed Marriott's Grande Ocean — 5 star
2 hrs · 
I am posting an updated review. I too was very upset after seeing the postings about Pool Bar Jim's. This is an update after attending the owner's meeting today. The GM was there and spent all the time needed to answer the questions he could about the issue. I have to say I can see two sides to this story now. The new GM couldn't discuss personnel issues but he said he understood what Jim meant to the owners.He stated he had discussed the redesign of the bar with Jim, and that he had talked with Jim about how to carry on with things when he retired (in supposedly 3 years) when he first arrived as GM. He does have some great ideas about what he wants the bar to be, including incorporating poolside and table service from the bar which I think would be a major upgrade to Grande Ocean. It's obviously an unfortunate situation but he was fully aware and recognized Jim's contribution to GO. His did say Jim was still employed by Marriott as of today. He also said that before this happened he had discussed with Jim plans for when Jim did retire to have him come back for "guest" bartending and master classes, basically whatever Jim would be wiling to do. He said that he was responsible for the revenue of the bar to Marriott and the last thing he wanted to have happen was for the bar to fall apart over the 4th of July weekend. I hope Jim comes back, and if he doesn't that his legacy will continue with his cooperation, but feel optimistic about what the vision is for the future. I was encouraged by the GM and his willingness to be as open as he could about the situation. He was more then willing to meet with a hostile crowd and talk about what he could. I was also impressed with his hands on knowledge about the resort, and his attention to the details of what was working and not working with the refurbishment. The new units are great."


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## pedro47

disneymom1 said:


> Hope I'm posting this correctly according to TUG rules.
> Saw this post on Facebook tonight on Grande Ocean's page.
> 
> "Nancie Turner reviewed Marriott's Grande Ocean — 5 star
> 2 hrs ·
> I am posting an updated review. I too was very upset after seeing the postings about Pool Bar Jim's. This is an update after attending the owner's meeting today. The GM was there and spent all the time needed to answer the questions he could about the issue. I have to say I can see two sides to this story now. The new GM couldn't discuss personnel issues but he said he understood what Jim meant to the owners.He stated he had discussed the redesign of the bar with Jim, and that he had talked with Jim about how to carry on with things when he retired (in supposedly 3 years) when he first arrived as GM. He does have some great ideas about what he wants the bar to be, including incorporating poolside and table service from the bar which I think would be a major upgrade to Grande Ocean. It's obviously an unfortunate situation but he was fully aware and recognized Jim's contribution to GO. His did say Jim was still employed by Marriott as of today. He also said that before this happened he had discussed with Jim plans for when Jim did retire to have him come back for "guest" bartending and master classes, basically whatever Jim would be wiling to do. He said that he was responsible for the revenue of the bar to Marriott and the last thing he wanted to have happen was for the bar to fall apart over the 4th of July weekend. I hope Jim comes back, and if he doesn't that his legacy will continue with his cooperation, but feel optimistic about what the vision is for the future. I was encouraged by the GM and his willingness to be as open as he could about the situation. He was more then willing to meet with a hostile crowd and talk about what he could. I was also impressed with his hands on knowledge about the resort, and his attention to the details of what was working and not working with the refurbishment. The new units are great."



Thanks for an outstanding update report.


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## RLS50

MOXJO7282 said:


> Would someone really think because the pool bar changed management the place isn't as special?  I can't believe many would feel that way but maybe a few.


I agree.   Like you we make our own drinks and cocktails mostly, it is one of the primary cost savings benefits of timeshares.   But I am sure we would have tried out PBJ's just because of his stellar reputation and following.

I think for the longtime owners and locals that frequented his bar, what happened was that the way this went down and the way it seems to have been initially handled that Marriott burned up a lot of intangible goodwill and positive feelings they had built up with a portion of the Grande Ocean owner base. 

It kind of makes sense that since Grande Ocean had maybe the highest owner loyalty rates in the Marriott system, that a resort icon like PBJ would be part of that Grande Ocean experience for a significant number.   I am not sure Marriott fully understand or appreciated that until the past week.

But I have no doubts that Grande Ocean will still be viewed as the best, or one of the best Marriott's in the system for the majority of Marriott owners.


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## RLS50

disneymom1 said:


> *The GM was there and spent all the time needed to answer the questions he could about the issue.* I have to say I can see two sides to this story now. *The new GM couldn't discuss personnel issues but he said he understood what Jim meant to the owners.*He stated he had discussed the redesign of the bar with Jim, and that he had talked with Jim about how to carry on with things when he retired (in supposedly 3 years) when he first arrived as GM. He does have some great ideas about what he wants the bar to be, including incorporating poolside and table service from the bar which I think would be a major upgrade to Grande Ocean. *It's obviously an unfortunate situation but he was fully aware and recognized Jim's contribution to GO.* His did say Jim was still employed by Marriott as of today. He also said that before this happened he had discussed with Jim plans for when Jim did retire to have him come back for "guest" bartending and master classes, basically whatever Jim would be wiling to do. He said that he was responsible for the revenue of the bar to Marriott and the last thing he wanted to have happen was for the bar to fall apart over the 4th of July weekend. I hope Jim comes back, and if he doesn't that his legacy will continue with his cooperation, but feel optimistic about what the vision is for the future. *I was encouraged by the GM and his willingness to be as open as he could about the situation. He was more then willing to meet with a hostile crowd and talk about what he could. *I was also impressed with his hands on knowledge about the resort, and his attention to the details of what was working and not working with the refurbishment. The new units are great."


The bolded above is what Marriott should have done early on.  Communication with the owners and acknowledging the issue and concerns is part of crisis management 101. 

Fortunately for owners it sounds like Marriott is finally getting a handle on how they need to handle this situation and hopefully the issue can be resolved that makes sense and is fair to all 3 parties involved (Marriott, Owners, PBJ).


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## jme

rthib said:


> So, Grande Ocean is a great location with a lot of pre points owners.
> So not a lot of availability for points trade.
> 
> So, knowing that Pool Bar Jim was popular with owners they conspire to get rid of him.
> 
> To keep up bar profit, they decrease drink selection and use standard ingredients.
> 
> Now longtime owners will rent or trade their week because place not as special.
> 
> So now they have people who don't know better staying, so they can sell the high profit drinks and also have more folks to sell points.



Never going to happen. GO is super special with or without the bar. There's a reason it's so highly rated and sought after, not to mention one of the, if not THE, resort with the highest owner occupancy rate-------and all that has zero to do with the bar.   We only visit it a couple of times during a week's stay, and we don't hang out there at all.  Mainly get a drink for us and kids (non-alcoholic Black Knight) and speak to Jim.


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## Old Hickory

Well I hope Jim lands somewhere before September when I visit.   I'll need a Painkiller or two during the week.


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## FlyerBobcat

RLS50 said:


> Fortunately for owners it sounds like Marriott is finally getting a handle on how they need to handle this situation and hopefully the issue can be resolved that makes sense and is fair to all 3 parties involved (Marriott, Owners, PBJ).



I sure hope so....  And thanks for disneymom1 for the update!


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## jme

FlyerBobcat said:


> I sure hope so....  And thanks for disneymom1 for the update!



Ditto, that was the best update we could have had. Glad they opened up. 
I think management should have sent out a quick letter or email to all owners regarding the situation. Didn't need to explain everything, just reassure everyone in the same manner as stated at that owners' meeting. Concerned owners would have accepted it as an ongoing situation which would ultimately result in a better experience for all, which I do believe is the desired end game. Since not all owners could or would be there to get the news from a meeting, obviously, it would have been the appropriate thing, and avoided the ensuing explosion of emotions from afar. 

I guess it's OK to say something NOW, since the stay is over, but the former resort manager Bob Spear was at GO all last week for his personal family vacation. Quite ironic to say the least, and totally a coincidence. He was not there for anything other than the vacation, and I told him to enjoy his time and forget the other stuff. I'm sure he did just that.  He was kind enough to tell me he was there, so I surely didn't want to say anything here.  Hence my recurring plea to avoid the speculations.  As I've shared many times before, the MVW (MVCI) CEO Steve Weisz also stays at GO for his family's summer vacation. Speaks volumes about GO, doesn't it?


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## RLS50

jme said:


> Ditto, that was the best update we could have had. Glad they opened up.
> I think management should have sent out a quick letter or email to all owners regarding the situation. Didn't need to explain everything, just reassure everyone in the same manner as stated at that owners' meeting. Concerned owners would have accepted it as an ongoing situation which would ultimately result in a better experience for all, which I do believe is the desired end game. Since not all owners could or would be there to get the news from a meeting, obviously, it would have been the appropriate thing, and avoided the ensuing explosion of emotions from afar.
> 
> I guess it's OK to say something NOW, since the stay is over, but the former resort manager Bob Spear was at GO all last week for his personal family vacation. Quite ironic to say the least, and totally a coincidence. He was not there for anything other than the vacation, and I told him to enjoy his time and forget the other stuff. I'm sure he did just that.  He was kind enough to tell me he was there, so I surely didn't want to say anything here.  Hence my recurring plea to avoid the speculations.  As I've shared many times before, the MVW (MVCI) CEO Steve Weisz also stays at GO for his family's summer vacation. Speaks volumes about GO, doesn't it?


Thanks for sharing that.  I personally find that reassuring as a new owner there.  It feels good knowing that senior executives in Marriott obviously want Grande Ocean to be in top shape for their own family vacations.

My view as an owner (of any resort) is that even if an issue arises that doesn't personally affect us, if it affects other owners I want to see management make a good faith effort to resolve it or address it in a professional manner.

I traveled and stayed with Marriott in hotels long before we owned any timeshares with them.  My overall experience with the Marriott brand has been almost entirely positive.  I think they train their people well, they keep their properties in good shape, and generally try to provide a positive experience for their customer.  It is why I am willing to pay them more than others.

In fact, although Marriott has some fantastic properties in their overall hotel / timeshare portfolio, I actually think their most valuable asset is the customer / owner loyalty they have taken decades to build.


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## jme

RLS50 said:


> Thanks for sharing that.  I personally find that reassuring as a new owner there.  It feels good knowing that senior executives in Marriott obviously want Grande Ocean to be in top shape for their own family vacations.
> 
> My view as an owner (of any resort) is that even if an issue arises that doesn't personally affect us, if it affects other owners I want to see management make a good faith effort to resolve it or address it in a professional manner.
> 
> I traveled and stayed with Marriott in hotels long before we owned any timeshares with them.  My overall experience with the Marriott brand has been almost entirely positive.  I think they train their people well, they keep their properties in good shape, and generally try to provide a positive experience for their customer.  It is why I am willing to pay them more than others.
> 
> In fact, although Marriott has some fantastic properties in their overall hotel / timeshare portfolio, I actually think their most valuable asset is the customer / owner loyalty they have taken decades to build.



...and to further reassure you, the staff at GO has ALWAYS been exemplary and over-the-top superior to the others around it, at least since we've owned there beginning in 1998. We own at Barony also, and have rented extra time at several other HH Marriotts many times (when GO had nothing available of course), including Surfwatch, Harbor Point, Harbour Club, & Monarch, and I'll say again, GO's staff remains the gold standard. Part of that was due to former resort manager Bob Spear's leadership, and I hope it stays that way. There has definitely been something special about GO, and you will get that feeling the more you stay.


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## Big Matt

I think the key thing that people who have never been there are missing is how the owners at GO come back year after year and don't trade.  They come the same weeks and have been doing so for 10-20 years.  PBJ is an icon.  He represents the memories of many years of going back year after year to a lot of people.  Like others, I don't really buy a lot from his bar, but each year we go, say hello, have a drink and buy a t-shirt.  It's just something that we do.  I'm sure others have similar experiences.  I don't own there, but I've figured out somehow how to get there for the last 7 out of 10 years.  When you know that you like a place you come back.  I'm sure each person on TUG has one or two that they call their favorite.  GO is mine.

Very glad to see the message from the new GM.  My guess is that everything will be fine and PBJ will show up there or somewhere else doing the same thing he's been doing for years.


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## Superchief

jme said:


> ...and to further reassure you, the staff at GO has ALWAYS been exemplary and over-the-top superior to the others around it, at least since we've owned there beginning in 1998. We own at Barony also, and have rented extra time at several other HH Marriotts many times (when GO had nothing available of course), including Surfwatch, Harbor Point, Harbour Club, & Monarch, and I'll say again, GO's staff remains the gold standard. Part of that was due to former resort manager Bob Spear's leadership, and I hope it stays that way. There has definitely been something special about GO, and you will get that feeling the more you stay.


I've observed that a good GM has significant impact on staff quality and loyalty, and the resulting customer experiences. Royal Palms and Oceana Palms have had loyal staffs and strong customer service because they had great, long-term GM's. I've also had positive experiences at Ocean Pointe, although their long-term GM recently left Marriott. I find the GM at Canyon Villas to only be marginal, and have observed greater staff turnover, increasing MF, and inconsistent customer service there.

I will be interested to see the impact of the new GM on staff quality and loyalty at GO.


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## GreenTea

Is the bar always closed in spring break periods or was it because of the construction last year?

I'll go for Thanksgiving this year.  Bar or no bar?  I was disappointed at spring break that there really wasn't any food available on property.   I thought the bar must have a grill that was closed for rehab...but maybe not?


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## rpk113

Perhaps we should make another thread/wiki with the restaurants at each resort.  But can we get back to the important things.  Like will I get my PBJ certified Painkiller when I visit GO in a month?


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## FlyerBobcat

rpk113 said:


> Perhaps we should make another thread/wiki with the restaurants at each resort.  But can we get back to the important things.  Like will I get my PBJ certified Painkiller when I visit GO in a month?



+1 .........


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## NTP66

Jim's still not back, and that owner's update wouldn't have been necessary had the GM not caused the issue in the first place. I'm glad that they're at least attempting to address is verbally, but the proof is in the pudding.


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## bw3

*Pool Bar Jim*

I waited a while before making a full post about this issue.  I purchased my first two weeks at Grande Ocean in 1992 when Marriott broke ground on the property.  My family stayed in the Dolphin building the second week it was opened.  The Pelican did not have its certificate of occupancy yet.  We bought our first weeks from Larry Morgan.  He took care of us until he moved on to another resort.  We met Pool Bar Jim in our first stay in July 1993.  Our kids were little and we spent most of our time watching out for them at the pool and the beach.  A special treat for them was a non-alcoholic drink from PBJ. Why was it special?  Until PBJ, no place would put whipped cream on a strawberry daiquiri.  Or put Oreos on top of the whipped cream on any drink.  They would bring in fresh mangos, strawberries, blueberries, peaches, papaya, etc.  You could get lost in the choices.  And it wasn't just Jim.  He hired people who cared just as much about the customers, kids or adults.  There was Jon and Jake and Brendan.  All great people that became friends of our family, not just bartenders.  Sadly, I read many posts that say, "I just don't care about the people".  My friends staying at other MVC resorts on Hilton Head would ask us when they could join us a Grande Ocean and visit PBJ's.  The drinks were by far the best.  

I would say great people used to be what defined Marriott.  I still remember Kara and Emily at the front desk who moved on to other resorts on Hilton Head for promotions.  I would recognize all these great people if I ran into them today, though some I have not seen for years.

And I remember Bob Spear.  What a great General Manager.  Early on during our ownership, Marriott did not select the right people for this important slot.  They did not last long.  And MVC has made a huge mistake in their latest selection.  He has the personality of a prison guard.  He will not last long.  He does not care about people.  He also seems to feel he is more important than owners.  Even a GM is just management and easily replaced. I am not sure how much damage he will do before MVC solves the problem.  We now own many weeks at Grande Ocean.  I won't be visiting the bar at GO any longer.  It will be cheaper to take the BYO route at the other pools.  And I will be writing scathing reviews about MVC until they fix their mistake.


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## pedro47

bw3 said:


> I waited a while before making a full post about this issue.  I purchased my first two weeks at Grande Ocean in 1992 when Marriott broke ground on the property.  My family stayed in the Dolphin building the second week it was opened.  The Pelican did not have its certificate of occupancy yet.  We bought our first weeks from Larry Morgan.  He took care of us until he moved on to another resort.  We met Pool Bar Jim in our first stay in July 1993.  Our kids were little and we spent most of our time watching out for them at the pool and the beach.  A special treat for them was a non-alcoholic drink from PBJ. Why was it special?  Until PBJ, no place would put whipped cream on a strawberry daiquiri.  Or put Oreos on top of the whipped cream on any drink.  They would bring in fresh mangos, strawberries, blueberries, peaches, papaya, etc.  You could get lost in the choices.  And it wasn't just Jim.  He hired people who cared just as much about the customers, kids or adults.  There was Jon and Jake and Brendan.  All great people that became friends of our family, not just bartenders.  Sadly, I read many posts that say, "I just don't care about the people".  My friends staying at other MVC resorts on Hilton Head would ask us when they could join us a Grande Ocean and visit PBJ's.  The drinks were by far the best.
> 
> I would say great people used to be what defined Marriott.  I still remember Kara and Emily at the front desk who moved on to other resorts on Hilton Head for promotions.  I would recognize all these great people if I ran into them today, though some I have not seen for years.
> 
> And I remember Bob Spear.  What a great General Manager.  Early on during our ownership, Marriott did not select the right people for this important slot.  They did not last long.  And MVC has made a huge mistake in their latest selection.  He has the personality of a prison guard.  He will not last long.  He does not care about people.  He also seems to feel he is more important than owners.  Even a GM is just management and easily replaced. I am not sure how much damage he will do before MVC solves the problem.  We now own many weeks at Grande Ocean.  I won't be visiting the bar at GO any longer.  It will be cheaper to take the BYO route at the other pools.  And I will be writing scathing reviews about MVC until they fix their mistake.



This is a very nice and a very candid assessment of a Grande Ocean owners over the past 23 years in my opinion.


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## LordCambridge

Superchief said:


> Although I enjoyed PBJ when I visited GO last year and can see why it is an important asset to owners at the resort, my bigger concern is what caused this to happen. It appears to likely be linked to the new GM and management policies. If Jim was truly 'stealing' or giving away too many drinks, then the action is justified. If this was a power trip by Marriott or the new GM to do things their way in spite of owners' wishes, then I have a problem.
> 
> In the corporate world, I've observed many power hungry new managers get rid of highly competent people because they were either a perceived threat or would challenge flawed new policies. This is more likely to occur with inexperienced managers. IMO, there is a big difference between managing a Courtyard (mid-price business hotel with limited facilities) and managing the most popular timeshare on Hilton Head. Owners wishes may conflict with other guest or MVC management wishes, but they need to be considered in management decisions. I'm curious whether there has also been significant turnover in GO staff. If so, this would be an indication of a GM or MVC problem.
> 
> Recently several long-term GM's have left MVC, and this concerns me that MVC management policies may be changing in a way that will negatively impact owners.



First, I agree with Superchief.  

Second, we are at Grande Ocean this week and can give my first-hand account.  Saturday and Sunday, the bar was not very crowded.  Monday (18th) and Tuesday the bar had a fair crowed, but I would say is was 25% to 50% less than in years past.  Drinks were being made with real fruit.  Bar tenders made good drinks and quantities were VERY generous.  The biggest oddity was that they had a drink menu that had like 10 adult drinks on it, that was all.  When we asked about other drinks the bartenders indicated they could make them and seemed very educated on drink making, but the printed menu was very limited.  Drinks were good.    The atmosphere wasn't the same as when Jim was there.......only time will tell if that's truly an issue.


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## NTP66

Hearing now that Jim is no longer at Grande Ocean (permanently). I'm really disappointed about this entire situation, and I hope that he stays in the area and opens up a new bar.


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## Quilter

NTP66 said:


> Hearing now that Jim is no longer at Grande Ocean (permanently). I'm really disappointed about this entire situation, and I hope that he stays in the area and opens up a new bar.



Permanently?   Not just a suspension that is being sorted out?   When was this announced?


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## NTP66

Quilter said:


> Permanently?   Not just a suspension that is being sorted out?   When was this announced?



Yep, permanently. I believe it happened sometime last week, but Jim essentially confirmed it publicly on Facebook:



> Pool Bar Jim's: Thank you! I will let everyone know my new destination.


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## Old Hickory

For those of you needing a PBJ fix...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Twrj0oBnE


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## rpk113

NTP66 said:


> Yep, permanently. I believe it happened sometime last week, but Jim essentially confirmed it publicly on Facebook:



5 bucks says he shows up at the new Hilton TS down the street.  And he will get to run the deal, after the backlash everyone saw on how Marriott treated him.


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## NTP66

rpk113 said:


> 5 bucks says he shows up at the new Hilton TS down the street.  And he will get to run the deal, after the backlash everyone saw on how Marriott treated him.


I'll take that bet.  Seriously, though, he won't be going to the Hilton. If he does go to another resort, it'll be a Marriott so that he can get his 25 years in and stay for free anywhere they have a hotel. If not, it'll be his own place.


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## rpk113

NTP66 said:


> I'll take that bet.  Seriously, though, he won't be going to the Hilton. If he does go to another resort, it'll be a Marriott so that he can get his 25 years in and stay for free anywhere they have a hotel. If not, it'll be his own place.



I think MVCI will have owner issues if they kicked what they call a "dishonest" (I'm sure he's not but they accused him of skimming) person from one resort to another.


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## Potential Buyer Scott

It seems to me that the new management probably jerked Jim around, treated him badly, and was looking for a reason to get rid of him. Surprise, they can always find one if they want to. 

It also seems that they underestimated Jim's value to the owners. I have no doubt that this situation would not have arisen under Bob Spear. Bob and Jim made MGO a unique and outstanding resort in the Marriott system, and now they are both gone. 

My kids and family are very unhappy about this. Jim has made them their favorites every year. It is having an impact on our vacation and the vacations of many other families here this week.

I may attend the Tuesday owners meeting but I am sure we will get lawyerly stonewalling from Marriott. They will say that it had nothing to do with the GM, that we don't know the whole story, and nothing can be done. 

Perhaps the MGO board can ask Marriott to get the situation fixed? I would think Bob Spear could intermediate a peace and get the issue resolved. He is respected on both sides. 

Marriott, the owners, and Jim are all losers in the current situation. Anyone have any thoughts about what else owners can do to convince Marriott that this is supposed to be about our vacations and not the new GM's ego?


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## Superchief

Potential Buyer Scott said:


> My kids and family are very unhappy about this. Jim has made them their favorites every year. It is having an impact on our vacation and the vacations of many other families here this week.
> 
> this is supposed to be about our vacations and not the new GM's ego?


Have you noticed any other changes at GO or heard any rumblings from other employees? I would think that there may be more turnover of loyal staff if the new GM has people or power trip issues.

I may try to stay at Surf Watch on my trip next year over Labor Day.


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## Potential Buyer Scott

Superchief said:


> Have you noticed any other changes at GO or heard any rumblings from other employees? I would think that there may be more turnover of loyal staff if the new GM has people or power trip issues



The regular employees who are here every year are Bob Spear, Pool Bar Jim, and Jim's Bar Tenders who are usually here for several years each. 

All are gone. 

I haven't met the new GM yet, but I am guessing from the earlier post that said he "has the personality of a prison guard." I think the GM has forgotten that this is not a hotel, and the MGO guests own the property. He works for us. 

I spoke with Bob Spear almost every year. He is the most honest, kind and knowledgeable person, who was able to calm situations and resolve issues selflessly and reasonably. It is a rare skill.  I did not seek him out, but Bob managed by walking around the resort and was very visible to guests. By doing that, he had his finger on the pulse of the place. I haven't seen the new GM walking around yet. 

I am sure not all of the owners are upset because there are many non-drinkers here, but Jim remembers his customers, makes better drinks, and uses better ingredients. (Lots of fresh fruit instead of mixes). Also the virgin drinks were great too.

I have to say that Jim always had people waiting in a line for drinks, and there is definitely no line today. lol


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## SueDonJ

Potential Buyer Scott said:


> It seems to me that the new management probably jerked Jim around, treated him badly, and was looking for a reason to get rid of him. Surprise, they can always find one if they want to.
> 
> It also seems that they underestimated Jim's value to the owners. I have no doubt that this situation would not have arisen under Bob Spear. Bob and Jim made MGO a unique and outstanding resort in the Marriott system, and now they are both gone.
> 
> My kids and family are very unhappy about this. Jim has made them their favorites every year. It is having an impact on our vacation and the vacations of many other families here this week.
> 
> I may attend the Tuesday owners meeting but I am sure we will get lawyerly stonewalling from Marriott. They will say that it had nothing to do with the GM, that we don't know the whole story, and nothing can be done.
> 
> Perhaps the MGO board can ask Marriott to get the situation fixed? I would think Bob Spear could intermediate a peace and get the issue resolved. He is respected on both sides.
> 
> Marriott, the owners, and Jim are all losers in the current situation. Anyone have any thoughts about what else owners can do to convince Marriott that this is supposed to be about our vacations and not the new GM's ego?



Grande Ocean has a new GM but it's still the same management in charge, Marriott Vacations Worldwide.  I have a hard time believing that any of the resort GM's can make unilateral decisions without at least support from MVW.  If MVW wanted the PoolBarJim fiasco to be fixed with him still in place, that's how it would have been fixed.

While I understand some owners being disappointed that Jim is gone and even more owners being dissatisfied with the way this has been handled, I'd still like to know how many other owners were upset at how popular PBJ's had become with non-guests over the years.  As an owner at two of the other oceanfront HHI resorts I'm pretty sure that if the same thing was happening at either I'd be in the camp of those who would want things to be changed.  A few visitors from the other HHI resorts on the island, sure.  A crowded bar with a loyal following of locals?  Nope, not what I'd want.

I'd also still like to know if part of the reason he's gone is because he fought the MVW decision to no longer allow him to sell his trademarked items onsite.  That change took place months ago and he was still there after they were removed.  Isn't it possible that in the interim between their removal and him leaving, he and MVW just couldn't come to a mutual agreement which would have satisfied both of them?  No doubt these questions will never be publicly answered but I'd rather believe something like this is in play than any of the rumors which are calling into question his professionalism.


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## NTP66

At Grande Ocean right now, and Jim's absense pretty obvious, given that the bar has been virtually empty every single day so far. They have removed Jim's name from most of the signage already. I wouldn't expect owners from other resorts to completely understand and appreciate the situation that MGO owners are in, as there is nothing comparable at the other resorts. Jim has been here longer than Marriott has been, and a lot of us have known him for 20+ years.


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## Potential Buyer Scott

To me, Jim is a guy who is focused on making happy owners/customers constantly, and is not very concerned about bureaucratic rules and big corporate policies. I am sure that rubs the bean counters the wrong way. 

It is troubling that the new GM thinks he can replace Jim with a generic 10 drink menu. The acid test is my kids. They love PBJ's drinks. They were unhappy about Jim, but still bought a drink at the new bar today anyway. They said it was not good, and as of this evening, most of that drink is still sitting on my counter, undrunk. That never happened before. Now they are pestering me to buy Jim's book and buy the ingredients to make their old favorites in our room. Apparently my three have decided that I am supposed to be Jim's replacement. Ugh. 

The GM needs to stop making lame excuses, and deliver a product, selection, and service that is as good or better than the old one, or get the guy that can do the job back. Meeting owner expectations is the job, and he has failed. If large drinks, quality ingredients, real fruit, and a wide drink selection cuts into the profit margins, then they should have weighed that before making a decision. 

Instead of stepping up to this responsibility, I am told that the GM is holding weekly excuse meetings and claiming it wasn't his decision. Owners don't want meetings, excuses or "working on it." Get the job done! When the kids love the new drinks, and the adults are happy with your Lava Flow replacement drink, and the new bar tender recognizes all my kids on sight and remembers what they ordered last year, you will have succeeded. Until then, Mr. GM, you are failing your owners. I don't want to have to replace Jim myself. I want you to do it, and I want you to do it starting today.

The owners will eventually get over the loss of Jim, but the loss of selection, quality, service, and customer knowledge, customer awareness, and kid friendliness will never be forgotten. Maintaining those standards is the GM's job. Get it done, get back the guy who can get it done, or resign.  

More results; no excuses. Put on the big boy pants and fix it. If you don't know how to wear big boy pants, call Bob Spear.


----------



## disneymom1

"It is troubling that the new GM thinks he can replace Jim with a generic 10 drink menu. The acid test is my kids. They love PBJ's drinks. They were unhappy about Jim, but still bought a drink at the new bar today anyway. They said it was not good, and as of this evening, most of that drink is still sitting on my counter, undrunk. That never happened before. Now they are pestering me to buy Jim's book and buy the ingredients to make their old favorites in our room. Apparently my three have decided that I am supposed to be Jim's replacement. Ugh."

We are checking into Grande Ocean today.  I already packed Jim's book and our blender from home in case the bar situation was not fixed.  My kids look forward to their daily PBJ treat and I was afraid of this.  If you want to look at the Jim's book let me know.


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## winger

Don't know of the guy, but this threads got me very interested in his drinks. I just purchased a used version of his book from Amazon since there's still time for some summer drinks!

Sorry to hear a beloved employee is gone-unfortunately, that happens in life all the time as good ppl move on for promotions or get in disagreements with new management.


----------



## burg1121

SueDonJ said:


> While I understand some owners being disappointed that Jim is gone and even more owners being dissatisfied with the way this has been handled, I'd still like to know how many other owners were upset at how popular PBJ's had become with non-guests over the years.  As an owner at two of the other oceanfront HHI resorts I'm pretty sure that if the same thing was happening at either I'd be in the camp of those who would want things to be changed.  A few visitors from the other HHI resorts on the island, sure.  A crowded bar with a loyal following of locals?  Nope, not what I'd want.



As an owner yes having a crowded bar can be a problem. But the reason it's crowded is because of it's exceptional quality. I don't know about you but I would rather put up the crowds and get a superior product than pay for average crap at outrageous resort prices. It should be interesting how management handles the coming influx of people bring coolers and their own alcohol to the pool area. One of the short comings of GO has been the lack of a good restaurant on site. PBJ's was a way to overcome that sort coming. Don't mind the crowds just give me a great product that's worth the price.
Adios Jim via con dios.


----------



## Potential Buyer Scott

At the owners meeting, they did not discuss why Marriott parted ways with Jim, specifically. Unlike comments from other staff this week. 

The GM said that Marriott is making between $11k and $15k less per month since Jim departed. I know Marriott doesn't care about that much money, but they made it clear that they do care that many owners are upset about the loss of Jim, and the loss of the drink size, quality and selection, and taste. He also said they are well aware of the blowback/beating that they are taking on social media over this issue and are working to fix it. (I know, blah, blah, blah, more talk, no action, how hard can it be?) 

He said they are bringing in a mixologist next week to establish a better selection of up-to-date and popular drinks, and that they are committed to continuing the extensive use of delicious real fresh fruits that MGO owners are accustomed to in their drinks instead of cheap artificial flavors (Yay!. It will be easy to tell when they open because Jim was always lugging in huge amounts of fresh fruit daily.)

Talked more about the plan to eventually offer poolside drink service, and blamed the city for the new rectangular bar that no one likes.

Basically what I expected them to say. I still think they would be well served to reach an amicable settlement with Jim. Hopefully, they are working on that. I possible, getting this resolved in a positive way would be better for everyone.

I should also add that we are very pleased with the room upgrades that have been made. Everyone in the family likes it.


----------



## Big Matt

Typical coward response.  Throw someone under the bus who can't respond because they are not named.  I'm sure it was the city's fault that the bar was bad.  This guy must be a piece of work.  Does he think the owners are stupid?  



Potential Buyer Scott said:


> Talked more about the plan to eventually offer poolside drink service, and blamed the city for the new rectangular bar that no one likes.


----------



## tlwmkw

From what I have heard MVW can't bring Jim back because they have painted themselves into a corner. With the accusations that resulted in "parting of ways" you can't just double back and pretend it didn't happen. Also I doubt he has any desire to work with them again after this. They are being very opaque in this and I think they should be more open and honest. JMHO.

Bottom line is I don't think Jim will be returning.


----------



## NTP66

I could see him returning to Marriott to complete his 25 years, but Grande Ocean is out of the equation at this point.

On a related note, the pool bar continues to basically be a ghost town this week. I've also noticed that we're not the only ones purposely wearing PBJ shirts while walking around the grounds.


----------



## disneymom1

Agree - the pool bar is a ghost town.  The ratio of guests to bartenders is close to 1:1.  I don't think I have seen more than 3-5 guests at a time at the bar all week.  Have seen many guests wearing Pool Bar Jim t-shirts, though.


----------



## dioxide45

NTP66 said:


> I could see him returning to Marriott to complete his 25 years, but Grande Ocean is out of the equation at this point.



I would have to agree. If the departure wasn't amicable, which it doesn't sound like it was, I don't see him returning to MVW. I don't think the employees work for the HOA, they work for MVW who in turn works for the HOA.


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## WBP

NTP66 said:


> I could see him returning to Marriott to complete his 25 years, but Grande Ocean is out of the equation at this point.
> 
> On a related note, the pool bar continues to basically be a ghost town this week. I've also noticed that we're not the only ones purposely wearing PBJ shirts while walking around the grounds.



Jim probably knows a lot more about the hospitality business on Hilton Head Island than the former General Manager of a Courtyard hotel in a sketchy city.

I suggest Jim be considered for the GM position at Grande Ocean.


----------



## MabelP

:cheerI second that!


----------



## nakyak

A few things.

For all those upset with MVW for not being more forthcoming with you about the personnel change there isn't any reason to give you the details. As the Grande Ocean property manager they are entrusted with staffing decisions.  MVW also has a non disclosure policy as to why they terminate personnel.  Your need to know the scoop doesn't trump that policy that protects their personnel of past , present, and future. 

As for the pool bar being less crowded that is good news for me.  I'll be there in a few weeks and it sounds like I won't have to deal with lots of people.  Hopefully the wait for drinks will be less.


----------



## vacationhopeful

My personal opinion I can express ... an employer is bond by confidential laws regarding employment and employee information.

Unless legal action is filed (or threaten by a respected legal entity), the bartender is gone. And any pocket change on the lost revenues from the pool bar ... is not going to make a dent in on the corporate bottom line. 

Any personal suffering or lost vacation experiences due to a different pool bar operation/staff/food & beverage options is petty, IMHO. Change happens in life.

So boycott the pool bar by taking your business elsewhere. Chose another vacation destination. Or give the new pool bar staff a chance to "win" your business while providing income to their family (they were not players in this change).

After all, that cute 5 year old grew up, annoyed you at age 13 for years and thrilled you to the moon & back with that grandchild.

Life and living it ... is all about changes, most of which you can NOT or do not control or influence.


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## pedro47

I agree an employer can not discuss or disclose why an employee  was terminated.


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## NTP66

"Lost revenue doesn't matter" -No competent business, ever


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## DCBoy

Here's my one PBJ story. I have only been to GO once (this past April) and went to PBJ's bar once while I was there to get some drinks. I talked to PBJ for a bit while he was making the drinks and asked if I could charge the drinks to my room when he was done. I then gave him my room number. He went away to process the transaction and the came back and asked if I was "Joe Jones". I answered "no" and stated my correct name and he checked to confirm my name with the info that he had received. Really impressed me that he was trying to protect the resort's interest at the time.

Doug B


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## Old Hickory

DCBoy said:


> Here's my one PBJ story. I have only been to GO once (this past April) and went to PBJ's bar once while I was there to get some drinks. I talked to PBJ for a bit while he was making the drinks and asked if I could charge the drinks to my room when he was done. I then gave him my room number. He went away to process the transaction and the came back and asked if I was "Joe Jones". I answered "no" and stated my correct name and he checked to confirm my name with the info that he had received. Really impressed me that he was trying to protect the resort's interest at the time.
> 
> Doug B




Now that you mention that...

We were visiting from another MVC property and asked if we could charge back to it.  He said yes and asked us what property and room number.  He came back with the bill and asked us if we were (another name).  We said no that we were (correct name) and he handed us the bill.

That came after we spent a lot of time chatting him up.  He handled it like it was a game he played with patrons but I'm sure it was a security measure.


----------



## Luvtoride

vacationhopeful said:


> My personal opinion I can express ... an employer is bond by confidential laws regarding employment and employee information.
> 
> Unless legal action is filed (or threaten by a respected legal entity), the bartender is gone. And any pocket change on the lost revenues from the pool bar ... is not going to make a dent in on the corporate bottom line.
> 
> Any personal suffering or lost vacation experiences due to a different pool bar operation/staff/food & beverage options is petty, IMHO. Change happens in life.
> 
> So boycott the pool bar by taking your business elsewhere. Chose another vacation destination. Or give the new pool bar staff a chance to "win" your business while providing income to their family (they were not players in this change).
> 
> After all, that cute 5 year old grew up, annoyed you at age 13 for years and thrilled you to the moon & back with that grandchild.
> 
> Life and living it ... is all about changes, most of which you can NOT or do not control or influence.



Here, here, Linda.  Well said.  We all have more important things to be concerned about.  Let's focus on the fact that we are ALL going on nice vacations to great places like GO!  Happy Travels everyone!


----------



## davidvel

tlwmkw said:


> They are being very opaque in this and I think they should be more open and honest. JMHO.


PBJ appears to have been much more than just your everyday employee, integrated into the fabric of the resort. He was selling his own books and merchandise, and we don;t know if this was officially sanctioned by corporate, or what type of agreement was in place if so.  PBJ was also reflected on the signage, etc.  

Obviously this gave PBJ much more leverage in his position than any other employee, and I can see how Marriott corporate could take issue with this situation. We don't know if either side made additional demands, etc. (At some point before his departure, the merchandise was removed.)

As others have noted, Marriott is constrained by both laws and policies as to the reason PBJ is gone. PBJ is not. The only thing we have from _him_ is the FB post about not ringing up the drink, but most here believe there is much more to the story that he could tell if _he_ chose to. 

That being said, a corporation like Marriott is smart enough to reach accord with an employee in this type of situation where a severance would be paid in exchange for a waiver of suit, and non-disclosure agreement. This would be my guess as to why we haven't heard anything more from PBJ, and never will publicly.


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## Big Matt

I may have missed this question a long time ago in this thread so if so, I apologize.

Was Jim an employee or a contractor?  In other words was he on the payroll by Marriott or just being paid as his own corporation and legal entity?


----------



## WBP

vacationhopeful said:


> My personal opinion I can express ... an employer is bond by confidential laws regarding employment and employee information.
> 
> Unless legal action is filed (or threaten by a respected legal entity), the bartender is gone. And any pocket change on the lost revenues from the pool bar ... is not going to make a dent in on the corporate bottom line.
> 
> Any personal suffering or lost vacation experiences due to a different pool bar operation/staff/food & beverage options is petty, IMHO. Change happens in life.
> 
> So boycott the pool bar by taking your business elsewhere. Chose another vacation destination. Or give the new pool bar staff a chance to "win" your business while providing income to their family (they were not players in this change).
> 
> After all, that cute 5 year old grew up, annoyed you at age 13 for years and thrilled you to the moon & back with that grandchild.
> 
> Life and living it ... is all about changes, most of which you can NOT or do not control or influence.



Logically and eloquently stated. Thank  you.


----------



## MOXJO7282

I wanted to provide a first hand account of the new product from someone who didn't know PBJ and had no bias in the controversy. 

The new product is of very poor quality. We stopped by the GO pool bar today and ordered a pina colada and a margarita and they were both 2s on a scale of 10.  Barcardi mixers are better than what they serve. 

Now I didn't think PBJ quality was a good as some thought but I'm an ex bartender so I'm picky but it was at least a 7 out of 10. I'm a firm believer that if they serve a quality product sales will return but to have such a drop off in quality needs to be addressed or they will really lose sales revenue.


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## dioxide45

How can a Pina Colada be bad, isn't it only three ingredients?


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## NTP66

My sister and BIL both ended up dumping their drinks (mojito's) because of how bad they were last week.


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## Big Matt

Cheap rum and a mix instead of good rum, fresh pineapple, and good coconut milk.



dioxide45 said:


> How can a Pina Colada be bad, isn't it only three ingredients?


----------



## Dean

Late I know but a couple of thoughts since it's still going on. 





bw3 said:


> This never would have happened with Bob Spear.   If they hire a GM from Courtyard, what do you expect?  When Marriott treats a long-term employee like this, when will owners get the same treatment?


This is not uncommon with Marriott.  Paul Ryan, former GM at MGO & current GM at MGV (last I heard) came from Courtyard and has seemingly done a good job.



Pat H said:


> I find it curious that Jim was told not to talk about what happened. Marriott must be holding something over his head. Maybe the promise of a return to his job? In SC employees have no rights. I know that first hand. It's an at-will state and only the federally protected classes have any rights. There is 1 other class that is protected by SC and it's smokers. You can't be fired because you smoke!


It's not uncommon.  If there are any severance benefits that were offered, this would not be uncommon to make them conditional.  It's not necessarily an indication of a larger agenda but rather just to keep down the chatter such as this thread and Facebook.  There was a lawsuit in south FL for a person fired from a school who got a settlement (nuisance cost it sounds like) but part of the condition was not to talk about it.  His daughter's Facebook post about it violated the agreement before the money was paid, so it wasn't.  



Big Matt said:


> I don't understand why so many people on this post have negative feelings toward Jim.
> 
> I've read every thread and as the post goes on and on it seems that each poster is digging in their heals and some are for Jim and those are against.  i think in reality people are just arguing.
> 
> I know this guy and he's as nice as can be.  Let's leave it alone and wait to see where he ends up.  Dragging his name through the mud just to make your own point is lousy.
> 
> Thanks.


I don't know him and have no feelings one way or the other.  But IF (IF, IF, IF) he was outside the rules he was given on comping drinks consistently even after being reminded, that alone would have been sufficient grounds.  This is common with servers of all types to give freebies in hopes of larger tips but it's stealing when this is done.  Certainly IF drinks were not being rung up as freebies to friends or worse, the cash pocketed, anyone who does those things should be fired immediately.  The other issue is that sometimes people develop a sense that they're more important than they are which becomes a problem when they start to act like it.  They can start to become too demanding and/or a problem with the rest of the staff.  I don't know if any of these are applicable and we likely will never know.  I've learned there's always 3 sides to these type of issues but I'm very doubtful it's the big Marriott picking on the little guy who's doing no wrong to put him down.  There's always more to the story.  I suspect if we knew the true info we'd be supporting of Marriott's decision but they can't talk about it and you can't completely trust the other party to give a clear and accurate picture of the issue in such matters.


----------



## NTP66

The current employees at GO have a pretty consistent view of the new GM, and it's not at all positive. But, they can't be trusted, either.


----------



## SueDonJ

NTP66 said:


> The current employees at GO have a pretty consistent view of the new GM, and it's not at all positive. But, they can't be trusted, either.



Whether they can or can't be trusted is irrelevant in the grand scheme but it's a problem if employees are complaining about their GM to anyone other than their superiors at Marriott.  IMO owners/guests shouldn't be asking the employees what they think because it puts them in a difficult position, and if the employees do have problems with the GM their concerns are better taken to their superior than the guests on-property.

Whatever the reasons for Jim and Marriott parting ways I would want my fellow owners and the employees to help make the atmosphere onsite better, not actively make it worse.  There's no doubt it's a bad situation but why exacerbate it needlessly?  Does anyone really think that there's still a chance Marriott and Jim will/can come to a mutual decision to reinstate him?


----------



## NTP66

SueDonJ said:


> Whatever the reasons for Jim and Marriott parting ways I would want my fellow owners and the employees to help make the atmosphere onsite better, not actively make it worse.


The GM is doing a fine job, it seems.


----------



## SueDonJ

NTP66 said:


> The GM is doing a fine job, it seems.



I'm honestly sorry if you think that the views you're sharing here are being easily dismissed, which I'm guessing may be the reason that you feel you have to take a defensive posture.  It's not my intention to belittle your thoughts or to put you on defense, and I don't believe it of others who are participating in this thread.

The owners at GO are coming at this from a perspective that we non-owners cannot share.  But that doesn't mean that our perspectives as owners at other resorts, or simply as people who are familiar with how vendor arrangements or bar set-ups work, are not valid either.  We're all privy to the same information that's been shared here, that remains unedited on PBJ's Facebook page, and that's being shared on other social media.  It should be expected that there will not be complete agreement among us, complete acceptance of the anti-Marriott position adopted by some GO owners.


----------



## NTP66

SueDonJ said:


> I'm honestly sorry if you think that the views you're sharing here are being easily dismissed, which I'm guessing may be the reason that you feel you have to take a defensive posture.  It's not my intention to belittle your thoughts or to put you on defense, and I don't believe it of others who are participating in this thread.
> 
> The owners at GO are coming at this from a perspective that we non-owners cannot share.  But that doesn't mean that our perspectives as owners at other resorts, or simply as people who are familiar with how vendor arrangements or bar set-ups work, are not valid either.  We're all privy to the same information that's been shared here, that remains unedited on PBJ's Facebook page, and that's being shared on other social media.  It should be expected that there will not be complete agreement among us, complete acceptance of the anti-Marriott position adopted by some GO owners.



This was my 21st year coming to Grande Ocean, and the first in which Jim wasn't here, so I'm not terribly happy with Marriott at the moment. As for the new GM, I didn't get any warm feelings for him, and the fact that whenever you see him on the property he is standing around, arms crossed, with a snarling glare on his face doesn't help his overall impression. Not just one day, but every single day that we were there.

As for the importance of Jim being at GO, no, I don't expect the casual visitors to understand, which is perfectly fine. What I do take issue with is people who simply assume Marriott is in the right here. I'm not saying that this is your position, just in general.


----------



## Dean

NTP66 said:


> The current employees at GO have a pretty consistent view of the new GM, and it's not at all positive. But, they can't be trusted, either.





NTP66 said:


> The GM is doing a fine job, it seems.


The sarcasm is unbecoming.  In reality we don't know if he's doing a good job or not nor does this issue define it one way or another.  Clearly this is an emotional issue for you, my view is more objective and analytical.  Assuming Jim was an employee and not an independent contractor, they couldn't just fire him without cause given the situation.  Therefore I think it a reasonable assumption there was cause of some type.  Legally Marriott wouldn't be able to discuss it no matter how egregious and they'd be foolish to open themselves up to legal actions if they did.  IMO it would also be foolish of us not to realize there are always 2 or more sides to every story and often plenty of blame to go around on all sides.  



NTP66 said:


> This was my 21st year coming to Grande Ocean, and the first in which Jim wasn't here, so I'm not terribly happy with Marriott at the moment. As for the new GM, I didn't get any warm feelings for him, and the fact that whenever you see him on the property he is standing around, arms crossed, with a snarling glare on his face doesn't help his overall impression. Not just one day, but every single day that we were there.
> 
> As for the importance of Jim being at GO, no, I don't expect the casual visitors to understand, which is perfectly fine. What I do take issue with is people who simply assume Marriott is in the right here. I'm not saying that this is your position, just in general.


I don't think most here feel that it's all Jim though clearly some see it as all Marriott.  The emotions of certain guests really should not play into such a decision where there are more pressing issues.  The reality is that we will never know the whole TRUTH unless there is legal action that actually goes to trial.  I wouldn't want to prejudge a GM based on interpretation of body language nor on a high profile situation where we don't have the needed facts.  That he's seen around property and observing can be a very positive  situation.


----------



## NTP66

Dean said:


> I wouldn't want to prejudge a GM based on interpretation of body language nor on a high profile situation where we don't have the needed facts.


Backpeddle much?


----------



## Dean

NTP66 said:


> Backpeddle much?


Not at all, said exactly the same thing in my first post in principle.  It's a little like the Aruba issue, if you didn't accept the entire conspiracy theory in total and took the same approach I listed, you were accused of being a Marriott lackey and apologist.


----------



## SueDonJ

NTP66 said:


> Backpeddle much?



Now I don't understand this.  Dean made a point of capitalizing "IF IF IF IF IF" umpteen times in his first post about this subject, and then wasn't any more accusatory in the second toward PBJ or the GO owners who apparently are finding Marriott completely at fault for the situation.  There's nothing in his posts for which he NEEDS to backpedal, and nothing that can be read objectively as backpedalling!

_With my moderator hat on:  Anyone who can't follow the "Be Courteous" TUG Posting Rule while participating in this thread should probably refrain from posting.  From this point on any such posts will be deleted without further explanation, and if that doesn't work the thread will be closed._


----------



## Big Matt

Don't quote my post and then start with IF.  

If you know something that I don't know then I'm happy to stand down, but I don't think you do and you aren't doing anything other than stirring up a pot that is already boiling over.  Assuming that Marriott is correct in this situation and is on the right side of the argument is just speculation on your part.  PM me if you want to discuss.



Dean said:


> I don't know him and have no feelings one way or the other.  But IF (IF, IF, IF) he was outside the rules he was given on comping drinks consistently even after being reminded, that alone would have been sufficient grounds.  This is common with servers of all types to give freebies in hopes of larger tips but it's stealing when this is done.  Certainly IF drinks were not being rung up as freebies to friends or worse, the cash pocketed, anyone who does those things should be fired immediately.  The other issue is that sometimes people develop a sense that they're more important than they are which becomes a problem when they start to act like it.  They can start to become too demanding and/or a problem with the rest of the staff.  I don't know if any of these are applicable and we likely will never know.  I've learned there's always 3 sides to these type of issues but I'm very doubtful it's the big Marriott picking on the little guy who's doing no wrong to put him down.  There's always more to the story.  I suspect if we knew the true info we'd be supporting of Marriott's decision but they can't talk about it and you can't completely trust the other party to give a clear and accurate picture of the issue in such matters.


----------



## Dean

Big Matt said:


> Don't quote my post and then start with IF.
> 
> If you know something that I don't know then I'm happy to stand down, but I don't think you do and you aren't doing anything other than stirring up a pot that is already boiling over.  Assuming that Marriott is correct in this situation and is on the right side of the argument is just speculation on your part.  PM me if you want to discuss.


We'll have to agree to disagree on what's appropriate posting style and what's not.  I don't intend to say anything to you that I care to post publicly.  I didn't assume Marriott was correct, I just didn't assume they weren't and that there is usually more to the story than we'll know.  I also assume that there are legal controls on how companies must act in this situation and if they violate that, they are at risk themselves.  Terminating a long term employee of a major company without going through appropriate steps is asking for legal trouble.  

The original accusation in this thread was that he didn't ring up a drink and someone complained.  For a bar that's often done to entice bigger tips, to give a friend benefits or sometimes, to pocket when paid for cash.  With comps you've got to be within guidelines of the management to be considered appropriate and if not, that alone could be reason for potential dismissal.  The other 2 situations, where applicable, are simply stealing.  My post was more to the principle than to the specifics, that's why it was IF, I think I was clear I didn't know about specifics.


----------



## Luckybee

_[Deleted.]_


----------



## Dean

_[Deleted.]_

I was thinking about this thread this morning and wanted to add.  My post was to some of the principles in question, some I hadn't seen particularly addressed.  I did see references to the idea that if the comps happened, it likely represented a pattern.  I also saw posts that seemed to suggest, Oh it's just a few drinks what's the harm.  IMO big harm if it represents someone with their own agenda or honesty issues.  I don't know if that actually applies in the situation at hand but it certainly does in many situations where comps are given out at bars.


----------



## Superchief

I've observed that a key indicator of the quality of a GM is employee turnover and enthusiasm. Good GM's tend to attract and keep good employees, resulting in higher overall owner/customer satisfaction. 

Oceana Palms is an example of this. The GM doesn't stand around and look important at the owner receptions. He is pouring wine and working beside  other employees, and highly receptive of suggestions and feedback. I've been going to this resort since he started and have seen many of the same employees every year, including many who have been promoted within the resort. Some of my other MVC's have mediocre GM's, much higher employee turnover, and inconsistent customer service.

Time will tell regarding the overall competency of the new GM. Higher employee turnover will support the impressions that some have expressed.


----------



## SueDonJ

Superchief said:


> I've observed that a key indicator of the quality of a GM is employee turnover and enthusiasm. Good GM's tend to attract and keep good employees, resulting in higher overall owner/customer satisfaction.
> 
> Oceana Palms is an example of this. The GM doesn't stand around and look important at the owner receptions. He is pouring wine and working beside  other employees, and highly receptive of suggestions and feedback. I've been going to this resort since he started and have seen many of the same employees every year, including many who have been promoted within the resort. Some of my other MVC's have mediocre GM's, much higher employee turnover, and inconsistent customer service.
> 
> Time will tell regarding the overall competency of the new GM. Higher employee turnover will support the impressions that some have expressed.



It's fairly obvious that for some owners this issue is never going to go away.  I'm not saying that it should, but I am saying that the steps they're taking to voice their displeasure may not be the most constructive.  Giving the resort low scores and hosting a crusade on social media, inviting media scrutiny, bringing the other employees into the dispute and putting them on the spot by asking them unanswerable questions, protesting onsite with t-shirts and signs and refusing to support the bar ... all of those things have been mentioned in this thread and there are others that are equally damning being mentioned elsewhere.

What employee would want to stay in that environment?  Not me!  I think it's reasonable to expect that if things continue on this track at the resort, it's going to have high employee turnover regardless of whether the GM is "a good one" or not.  At this point he's being blamed anyway for what is most likely an MVW directive, or at the least an MVW-sanctioned action, so MVW may as well cycle him out of there and give him an opportunity to prove himself elsewhere.


----------



## Dean

Superchief said:


> I've observed that a key indicator of the quality of a GM is employee turnover and enthusiasm. Good GM's tend to attract and keep good employees, resulting in higher overall owner/customer satisfaction.
> 
> Oceana Palms is an example of this. The GM doesn't stand around and look important at the owner receptions. He is pouring wine and working beside  other employees, and highly receptive of suggestions and feedback. I've been going to this resort since he started and have seen many of the same employees every year, including many who have been promoted within the resort. Some of my other MVC's have mediocre GM's, much higher employee turnover, and inconsistent customer service.
> 
> Time will tell regarding the overall competency of the new GM. Higher employee turnover will support the impressions that some have expressed.


I agree that long term turnover can reflect on management style and/or poor hiring practices.  But turnover initially can be an indication that changes were needed.



SueDonJ said:


> It's fairly obvious that for some owners this issue is never going to go away.  I'm not saying that it should, but I am saying that the steps they're taking to voice their displeasure may not be the most constructive.  Giving the resort low scores and hosting a crusade on social media, inviting media scrutiny, bringing the other employees into the dispute and putting them on the spot by asking them unanswerable questions, protesting onsite with t-shirts and signs and refusing to support the bar ... all of those things have been mentioned in this thread and there are others that are equally damning being mentioned elsewhere.
> 
> What employee would want to stay in that environment?  Not me!  I think it's reasonable to expect that if things continue on this track at the resort, it's going to have high employee turnover regardless of whether the GM is "a good one" or not.  At this point he's being blamed anyway for what is most likely an MVW directive, or at the least an MVW-sanctioned action, so MVW may as well cycle him out of there and give him an opportunity to prove himself elsewhere.


Agreed, some have made this a make or break issue emotionally.


----------



## burg1121

SueDonJ said:


> It's fairly obvious that for some owners this issue is never going to go away.  I'm not saying that it should, but I am saying that the steps they're taking to voice their displeasure may not be the most constructive.  Giving the resort low scores and hosting a crusade on social media, inviting media scrutiny, bringing the other employees into the dispute and putting them on the spot by asking them unanswerable questions, protesting onsite with t-shirts and signs and refusing to support the bar ... all of those things have been mentioned in this thread and there are others that are equally damning being mentioned elsewhere.
> 
> What employee would want to stay in that environment?  Not me!  I think it's reasonable to expect that if things continue on this track at the resort, it's going to have high employee turnover regardless of whether the GM is "a good one" or not.  At this point he's being blamed anyway for what is most likely an MVW directive, or at the least an MVW-sanctioned action, so MVW may as well cycle him out of there and give him an opportunity to prove himself elsewhere.



I'm not sure I understand. When something is made inferior at a place you
own what would be the appropriate way to show your dissatisfaction. It seems somewhat obvious that MVC  really could care less what owners think or care about. I don't know anymore than what I've read, but PBJ had a good thing going or he would not have stayed for 20 plus years. As far as expressing ones displeasure that seems fair to me in all forms just keep it clean. If MVC can't keep good employees they may need to rethink how they treat them and the people they work for the owners.


----------



## Superchief

Dean said:


> I agree that long term turnover can reflect on management style and/or poor hiring practices.  But turnover initially can be an indication that changes were needed.
> 
> .



Although this may be true in a few circumstances, it doesn't appear to be the case at Grand Ocean. The resort was consistently one of the highest rated MVC resorts, and the former GM was promoted. I doubt MVC needed a 'hatchet man' to solve employee problems at MGO. I've spent my whole career working for major US corporations, and have experienced many situations where 'control freaks' drive many of the best employees to leave. I hope this doesn't happen at MGO for the sake of all owners and guests. In the near term, I plan to stay at Surf Club when visiting Hilton Head.


----------



## SueDonJ

Superchief said:


> Although this may be true in a few circumstances, it doesn't appear to be the case at Grand Ocean. The resort was consistently one of the highest rated MVC resorts, and the former GM was promoted. I doubt MVC needed a 'hatchet man' to solve employee problems at MGO. I've spent my whole career working for major US corporations, and have experienced many situations where 'control freaks' drive many of the best employees to leave. I hope this doesn't happen at MGO for the sake of all owners and guests. In the near term, I plan to stay at Surf Club when visiting Hilton Head.



Do you mean SurfWatch?  You'll have quite a commute if you plan on visiting HHI while staying in Aruba.  

The thing is, I don't think the situation with PBJ happened in a vacuum.  Consider that GO would have been told by MVW several years ago that the Sales Office on the island would be moving from SurfWatch (because those governing docs dictated it) and taking over tennis court space at GO, that a competing timeshare developer would be building a brand new resort on an adjacent parcel, and, that in conjunction with a scheduled refurb MVW would be upgrading the GO footprint with a new bar and common space adjacent to the beach.  It's not too much of a stretch that at the same time MVW would have been preparing to reduce PBJ's (the bar, not the man) popularity with the local regulars, so as to reduce the growing number of complaints that have been lodged by owners/guests over the years as well as to bring back the diminishing sense of "exclusivity" that will appeal to folks who might decide to tour GO while they're nearby touring the competition.

So a refurb, a new oceanfront/poolside presentation, a new bar with the beloved bartender's name brand diminished and his items no longer available for purchase, the local Sales Office moved closer resulting in more non-owners/guests than less wandering around the property, and a brand-new shiny pretty competing resort right next door.  That's a lot of change all happening on top of each other and it's a known fact that folks don't like change.  Things were bound to come to a head in one way or another.

I've said in this thread that I think it's more likely that PBJ and MVW weren't able to come to a mutual agreement after they stopped allowing him to sell his items, as opposed to the damaging rumors (begun and still unedited on his Facebook page, not here on TUG) questioning his professionalism.  I've also said that I think it's possible that Bob Spear was given the opportunity to leave GO in order to remove him from a situation that was probably expected to not go swimmingly.  I still think that's possible, not as any sort of punishment for Bob but as a way to reward him for his years of outstanding service.

Up there in the thread burg1121 has asked what I would have done as an owner, differently, to show my displeasure at the way things have turned out.  I guess first that in considering all of the changes over the last few years and the possible reasons for them, I wouldn't have been as angry over the PBJ separation as some seem to be.  But I still wouldn't hesitate to voice my displeasure with the fallout by writing to the board at GO with a copy to Mr. Delorey, Executive VP & Chief Resort Experience Officer.  Badmouthing the resort and the GM, forcing the employees to become pawns in the drama, worsening the atmosphere onsite ... all of that doesn't do anything to engender goodwill from MVW, it just hurts the owners/guests.

And now I'll bow out after apologizing to any GO owners who think that all I'm doing is causing more harm.  It's not my intent, not by a long shot.  I hope all of you can eventually come to terms with the changes and will once more love your resort as you have in the past.  Peace.


----------



## davidvel

SueDonJ said:


> Do you mean SurfWatch?  You'll have quite a commute if you plan on visiting HHI while staying in Aruba.
> 
> The thing is, I don't think the situation with PBJ happened in a vacuum.  Consider that GO would have been told by MVW several years ago that the Sales Office on the island would be moving from SurfWatch (because those governing docs dictated it) and taking over tennis court space at GO, that a competing timeshare developer would be building a brand new resort on an adjacent parcel, and, that in conjunction with a scheduled refurb MVW would be upgrading the GO footprint with a new bar and common space adjacent to the beach.  It's not too much of a stretch that at the same time MVW would have been preparing to reduce PBJ's (the bar, not the man) popularity with the local regulars, so as to reduce the growing number of complaints that have been lodged by owners/guests over the years as well as to bring back the diminishing sense of "exclusivity" that will appeal to folks who might decide to tour GO while they're nearby touring the competition.
> 
> So a refurb, a new oceanfront/poolside presentation, a new bar with the beloved bartender's name brand diminished and his items no longer available for purchase, the local Sales Office moved closer resulting in more non-owners/guests than less wandering around the property, and a brand-new shiny pretty competing resort right next door.  That's a lot of change all happening on top of each other and it's a known fact that folks don't like change.  Things were bound to come to a head in one way or another.
> 
> I've said in this thread that I think it's more likely that PBJ and MVW weren't able to come to a mutual agreement after they stopped allowing him to sell his items, as opposed to the damaging rumors (begun and still unedited on his Facebook page, not here on TUG) questioning his professionalism.  I've also said that I think it's possible that Bob Spear was given the opportunity to leave GO in order to remove him from a situation that was probably expected to not go swimmingly.  I still think that's possible, not as any sort of punishment for Bob but as a way to reward him for his years of outstanding service.
> 
> Up there in the thread burg1121 has asked what I would have done as an owner, differently, to show my displeasure at the way things have turned out.  I guess first that in considering all of the changes over the last few years and the possible reasons for them, I wouldn't have been as angry over the PBJ separation as some seem to be.  But I still wouldn't hesitate to voice my displeasure with the fallout by writing to the board at GO with a copy to Mr. Delorey, Executive VP & Chief Resort Experience Officer.  Badmouthing the resort and the GM, forcing the employees to become pawns in the drama, worsening the atmosphere onsite ... all of that doesn't do anything to engender goodwill from MVW, it just hurts the owners/guests.
> 
> And now I'll bow out after apologizing to any GO owners who think that all I'm doing is causing more harm.  It's not my intent, not by a long shot.  I hope all of you can eventually come to terms with the changes and will once more love your resort as you have in the past.  Peace.


Very well reasoned analysis.


----------



## Dean

Superchief said:


> Although this may be true in a few circumstances, it doesn't appear to be the case at Grand Ocean. The resort was consistently one of the highest rated MVC resorts, and the former GM was promoted. I doubt MVC needed a 'hatchet man' to solve employee problems at MGO. I've spent my whole career working for major US corporations, and have experienced many situations where 'control freaks' drive many of the best employees to leave. I hope this doesn't happen at MGO for the sake of all owners and guests. In the near term, I plan to stay at Surf Club when visiting Hilton Head.


Certainly that can happen but anytime the person in charge is there a while, things tend to settle in and that often includes bad habits.  I own 6 platinum weeks at MGO and certainly don't want things to deteriorate but one has to be honest and objective about these type of issues.  Employees come and go, even in the best of circumstances.  MGO is not highly rated simply because of the employees, though they're a part of it, it's other factors like the resort itself, area and location, that drive the ratings.  It'd really be difficult to mess that up at the GM level, easier at the corporate level.  I don't know how good a job the previous GM did nor the new one is doing, the reality is that NONE of us do because we don't have sufficient information to judge their overall performance.  Regardless, this one issue, no matter how well or poorly anyone feels it was handled, should not drive that decision as the only or even main factor.


----------



## Potential Buyer Scott

"The emotions of certain guests really should not play into such a decision"

Well, they are not guests, they are owners. Marriott seems to have forgotten that they work for the owners. 

Second, I bought one drink that week, and it was poor. I can not understand why they can't seem to figure out how to not make cheap watered-down drinks. MGO owners are used to good quality drinks. Why does that take a committee months to investigate?


----------



## Potential Buyer Scott

@SueDonJ"worsening the atmosphere onsite"

That really is the key problem for Marriott. 

Marriott's job is to make a good experience for owners. Their handling this situation  has negatively impacted a lot of people's vacations, and all they are doing is making a lot of excuses about why they aren't able to keep the drink quality and selection up to the level that it was. That is what I find inexplicable. There is just no excuse for it. It isn't rocket science. 

They said at the owner's meeting that they are bringing in a mixologist to investigate and help them establish a menu. Well how long can it take to set up a high quality bar? How can Marriott not know how to do that?

Also, I think that discussing it is helpful. They said in the meeting that they were well aware of the volume of feedback they are getting on "social media." They seem to be more concerned about that than what a few owners think.


----------



## Dean

Potential Buyer Scott said:


> "The emotions of certain guests really should not play into such a decision"
> 
> Well, they are not guests, they are owners. Marriott seems to have forgotten that they work for the owners.
> 
> Second, I bought one drink that week, and it was poor. I can not understand why they can't seem to figure out how to not make cheap watered-down drinks. MGO owners are used to good quality drinks. Why does that take a committee months to investigate?


My point was it was a bigger decision than just a few guests/owners and that the emotions and feelings of a few should not drive the decision.  Marriott needs to look at the overall picture and make decisions for such situations that considers all of the parameters in play.  The FACT is that NONE of us have enough information to know if the decisions were appropriate or not.  Maybe it was handled poorly or maybe he put them in a position where they had no choice, we simply do not know.  I'm not saying not to discuss or complain about the issue but to keep an open mind.  I don't think reasonable people can look at this one issue, no matter how high profile or unpopular with some, and decide that Marriott is not doing their job appropriately.    If we see a pattern of decisions that seem like they are poor then that might be a different situation.  For anyone where it's a big deal, I'd suggest they call and see if they can discuss with the GM directly.  While he would legally not be able to discuss personnel specifics, we've already seen one post of someone at an owners meeting where it was discussed and came away with a much different picture than presented by some here and on Facebook.


----------



## pedro47

Are GO overall ratings down  10% or more from the past three (3) years; that is how I would measure the GM job performance?


----------



## MabelP

If the drinks are not up to standard, send them back.

I have never had to do that, but if they are as bad as people are saying, that would send a clear message.


----------



## Big Matt

I'm simply asking for you to not bring my name or quote my post into a conversation that you are having with this board when you don't have any information at all other than what you've read and assumed. It degrades my points.

I appreciate that you want to continue posting on TUG.  Thanks for understanding my point on this. 



Dean said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree on what's appropriate posting style and what's not.  I don't intend to say anything to you that I care to post publicly.  I didn't assume Marriott was correct, I just didn't assume they weren't and that there is usually more to the story than we'll know.  I also assume that there are legal controls on how companies must act in this situation and if they violate that, they are at risk themselves.  Terminating a long term employee of a major company without going through appropriate steps is asking for legal trouble.
> 
> The original accusation in this thread was that he didn't ring up a drink and someone complained.  For a bar that's often done to entice bigger tips, to give a friend benefits or sometimes, to pocket when paid for cash.  With comps you've got to be within guidelines of the management to be considered appropriate and if not, that alone could be reason for potential dismissal.  The other 2 situations, where applicable, are simply stealing.  My post was more to the principle than to the specifics, that's why it was IF, I think I was clear I didn't know about specifics.


----------



## silentg

*Pool Bar Jim must be a great guy?*

The responses on here are very strong. I have no knowledge of this subject, but he must make a really great drink?
Silentg


----------



## Dean

Big Matt said:


> I'm simply asking for you to not bring my name or quote my post into a conversation that you are having with this board when you don't have any information at all other than what you've read and assumed. It degrades my points.
> 
> I appreciate that you want to continue posting on TUG.  Thanks for understanding my point on this.


Again, we'll have to disagree.  My response, where I quoted your post, was in response to what you posted and an explanation of my thoughts on the subject you posted.


----------



## tynian16

silentg said:


> The responses on here are very strong. I have no knowledge of this subject, but he must make a really great drink?
> Silentg



I agree.  Never been here, but have been to some of the best cocktail bars in the world and interacted with amazing bartenders many times.  One of them leaving a place I love to visit would never impact my decision to go back one way or the other.  No one here has any actual insight into what happened.  It's all just hearsay.  

The drinks must have been world championship quality!


----------



## burg1121

Potential Buyer Scott said:


> @SueDonJ"worsening the atmosphere onsite"
> 
> That really is the key problem for Marriott.
> 
> Marriott's job is to make a good experience for owners. Their handling this situation  has negatively impacted a lot of people's vacations, and all they are doing is making a lot of excuses about why they aren't able to keep the drink quality and selection up to the level that it was. That is what I find inexplicable. There is just no excuse for it. It isn't rocket science.
> 
> They said at the owner's meeting that they are bringing in a mixologist to investigate and help them establish a menu. Well how long can it take to set up a high quality bar? How can Marriott not know how to do that?
> 
> Also, I think that discussing it is helpful. They said in the meeting that they were well aware of the volume of feedback they are getting on "social media." They seem to be more concerned about that than what a few owners think.



Leaving PBJ out of the conversation I don't understand why the new manager can't figure out how to make a quality drink. Just  go by the adage if it ain't broke don't fix it. Did all the people that worked at the bar leave? They made the drinks when PBJ was there why did they change when he left? Do you need a mixologist  to tell you your new drinks suck and to go back to how Jim made them. Why all the BS just open the book and mix! Bottoms up


----------



## taterhed

Way back, when the stars were still young, I tended bar at a beachside resort.

 Our rules were quite simple:


Sales:  Big Sales numbers good.  Small Sales numbers bad. Cash register doesn't lie. Make sales numbers or you're fired. 
Yield:  Here is your yield goal. Comp what you need, record what you waste.  Meet your yield or you're fired. 
Complaints:  Some people will complain about everything. Some people have valid complaints.  Get too many valid complaints--(here it comes)  you're fired.
 I guess if the bar trade gets big enough, the skim, or inherent errors in the rules above, can get big enough to be a real problem.  But, without a decent bartender who makes good drinks, talks a good talk and knows how to make unhappy customers happy and get happy customers to spend more money..... you can't run a bar.

 Just 'sayin.  It's not rocket science people....if I did it, anybody can. 
 The real problem, IMHO, is living up to the legend of your predecessor.


----------



## Marathoner

In the medical field, the placebo effect is very real and significant. Given that the remaining bartenders suddenly didn't suffer amnesia when it comes to making mixed drinks and that good drinks can be made at bars outside of Marriott GO, I wonder how much of the anecdotes around quality of drinks is simply  due to perception of Jim's departure. 

I am going to buy all my kids their drinks at the PBJ bar when we visit for the first time in 2 weeks. Since they've only have had awful drinks in the other Marriott resorts, I expect they'll like it fine. 

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk


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## pedro47

Based upon this thread after the summer peak season, I feel Marriott's Corp is going to conduct a total review of GO from top to bottom.


----------



## SueDonJ

pedro47 said:


> Based upon this thread after the summer peak season, I feel Marriott's Corp is going to conduct a total review of GO from top to bottom.



Maybe, could be.  But I think MVW already did a total review of GO back a few years ago when word got out that a competitor would be developing a new resort next door.  I think that's the reason we're seeing so many changes directed by MVW over which the GM and other onsite personnel have very little, if any, control.  All of the changes have positioned the resort to be on par with the new resort next door as far as fresh, modern design and exclusivity, positioned it perfectly to appeal to new prospects for DC Points sales.


----------



## burg1121

Marathoner said:


> In the medical field, the placebo effect is very real and significant. Given that the remaining bartenders suddenly didn't suffer amnesia when it comes to making mixed drinks and that good drinks can be made at bars outside of Marriott GO, I wonder how much of the anecdotes around quality of drinks is simply  due to perception of Jim's departure.
> 
> I am going to buy all my kids their drinks at the PBJ bar when we visit for the first time in 2 weeks. Since they've only have had awful drinks in the other Marriott resorts, I expect they'll like it fine.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk



I'm not sure if you understand. They are not mixing or using fresh ingredients as they were in the past and the menu has been severely limited. Kind of like ordering a kobe burger and getting a big mac but paying the same. If your used to the kobe burger a big mac just won't cut it. PBJ aside just make the drinks the same way it's simple. They obviously aren't concerned about the sales volume or the cost. Maybe if those who get drinks they don't like send them back the money they lose might change their minds on how they make them. If a restaurant changes cooks do they change the menu or teach the new cook the proper recipes to please the clientele. It's MVC cookie cutter
mentality. Big Mac here we come.


----------



## Phillie

*So how something positive and happy?*

Sitting at the MGO dolphin pool today and they come by with ice chilled towels. I know off the topic of this thred but I am so tired of the negative that I thought I would post a positive post. So mamy people saying oh MGO going down hill and will never be same. Yet I have not seen anyone post about the towels. What about the new beautiful hammocks along the path near the beach or in the shady lagoon. How about the new overhanging by the Dolphin grill so you don't burn your feet or fry while trying to eat your lunch? How about each time I pass an employee they say hi before I do. Yes I miss Jim's drinks just like everyone else but let's try a little positive in this world as we could all use it.


----------



## disneymom1

Marathoner said:


> In the medical field, the placebo effect is very real and significant. Given that the remaining bartenders suddenly didn't suffer amnesia when it comes to making mixed drinks and that good drinks can be made at bars outside of Marriott GO, I wonder how much of the anecdotes around quality of drinks is simply  due to perception of Jim's departure.
> 
> I am going to buy all my kids their drinks at the PBJ bar when we visit for the first time in 2 weeks. Since they've only have had awful drinks in the other Marriott resorts, I expect they'll like it fine.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk



I have been to Grande Ocean twice - last summer and this summer.  I do not personally know PBJ, other than he served me a drink or two last summer.  The drinks last year were very good and consistent in quality.  My kids and I got drinks every day as a late afternoon treat.  We were at GO the 1st week of Aug this year and our drinks were terrible!  The drinks were below the quality of any Marriott resort we have visited and almost every restaurant I have ever ordered a drink from.  I assure you this is probably NOT a placebo effect - the bar at GO is on life support and needs CPR!!  I recall the manager said only one of the bartenders had experience under Jim and the others had about a year experience (one had 3 months experience!).  There are 7 drinks on the menu - 3 of these drinks cost $17 (mudslide, rum runner and mai tai)!!!!   All week there was about 2-6 people at the bar at any given time and 3 bartenders.  Last year, the bar was consistently busy.   Hopefully things will get better when Marriott has the mixologist train the bar staff.   The bartenders do seem friendly.  I don't know what happened, but whatever happened I am guessing must have been sudden.   Hypothetically speaking, if I was a manager of a resort with a very profitable bar and I wanted to make changes to the bar, I don't think I would have ousted the main bartender 4th of July weekend without a back up plan in place!  A month has gone by and the bar still suffers.


----------



## Egret1986

*Great post.  Thank you.*



Phillie said:


> Sitting at the MGO dolphin pool today and they come by with ice chilled towels. I know off the topic of this thred but I am so tired of the negative that I thought I would post a positive post. So mamy people saying oh MGO going down hill and will never be same. Yet I have not seen anyone post about the towels. What about the new beautiful hammocks along the path near the beach or in the shady lagoon. How about the new overhanging by the Dolphin grill so you don't burn your feet or fry while trying to eat your lunch? How about each time I pass an employee they say hi before I do. Yes I miss Jim's drinks just like everyone else but let's try a little positive in this world as we could all use it.



Ahhhhh!  That ray of sunshine breaking through the clouds.


----------



## disneymom1

Phillie said:


> Sitting at the MGO dolphin pool today and they come by with ice chilled towels. I know off the topic of this thred but I am so tired of the negative that I thought I would post a positive post. So mamy people saying oh MGO going down hill and will never be same. Yet I have not seen anyone post about the towels. What about the new beautiful hammocks along the path near the beach or in the shady lagoon. How about the new overhanging by the Dolphin grill so you don't burn your feet or fry while trying to eat your lunch? How about each time I pass an employee they say hi before I do. Yes I miss Jim's drinks just like everyone else but let's try a little positive in this world as we could all use it.



I have to agree here.  Aside from the bar issue, GO is a great resort and we all had a great time!  We were there the 1st week of August and the staff was outgoing and friendly.  Even the housekeeping staff smiled and said hello.  My kids loved the activities.  The resort was extremely clean and well maintained.  Our room was newly renovated and excellent.  The multiple UBS hubs on the nightstands were greatly appreciated!  We were never offered ice chilled towels, however, but that sounds awesome!  We saw the general manager many times around the resort many times during our stay.  Don't miss the grilling guys - come very hungry!  Kudos to the resort staff!


----------



## griffer331

$17 for a drink?  Maybe I'm missing something but that is by far the highest priced drink I have ever seen.  Were the prices the same under PBJ?


----------



## jimf41

griffer331 said:


> $17 for a drink?  Maybe I'm missing something but that is by far the highest priced drink I have ever seen.  Were the prices the same under PBJ?



I agree. I've been to some pretty high class gin joints in my time but I don't think I've ever paid $17 for a drink.


----------



## GreenTea

PBJ is starting to become like Hillary Clinton's damn emails........


----------



## Old Hickory

jimf41 said:


> I agree. I've been to some pretty high class gin joints in my time but I don't think I've ever paid $17 for a drink.




We wouldn't expect you to remember, anyway.


----------



## FlyerBobcat

Marathoner said:


> I am going to buy all my kids their drinks at the PBJ bar when we visit for the first time in 2 weeks. Since they've only have had awful drinks in the other Marriott resorts, I expect they'll like it fine.



Let us know if the bar is still giving the 2 drinks (main drink plus the "sidecar") when you order one....


----------



## SueDonJ

FlyerBobcat said:


> Let us know if the bar is still giving the 2 drinks (main drink plus the "sidecar") when you order one....



Is that the reason the prices are so high for the 3 drinks mentioned by disneymom1?  Are they effectively 2-for-1, and have they always been high-priced?


----------



## jimf41

Old Hickory said:


> We wouldn't expect you to remember, anyway.



hic..I resemble that remark    ..hic


----------



## disneymom1

SueDonJ said:


> Is that the reason the prices are so high for the 3 drinks mentioned by disneymom1?  Are they effectively 2-for-1, and have they always been high-priced?



They did give one main drink and a smaller "bonus" side drink, like PBJ. It's not really 2 drinks - kind of like a drink and a half.  All the drinks are made like this, not just the $17 drinks.

Last year, I recall the drinks at PBJ to be around $12.  I don't recall ever spending $17 on ANY drink, but the menu last year was VERY extensive. 

At SurfWatch, does Sea Salts still offer the refillable bucket (bucket filled with VooDoo rum punch that can be refilled for a discounted price)?  That is a drink meant to be shared!  It's a pretty heavy hitter.


----------



## SueDonJ

disneymom1 said:


> They did give one main drink and a smaller "bonus" side drink, like PBJ. It's not really 2 drinks - kind of like a drink and a half.  All the drinks are made like this, not just the $17 drinks.
> 
> Last year, I recall the drinks at PBJ to be around $12.  I don't recall ever spending $17 on ANY drink, but the menu last year was VERY extensive.
> 
> At SurfWatch, does Sea Salts still offer the refillable bucket (bucket filled with VooDoo rum punch that can be refilled for a discounted price)?  That is a drink meant to be shared!  It's a pretty heavy hitter.



Yes, and a few of my nephews and nieces got their money's worth out of those things this past July.  :whoopie:

SW also has drink/food specials on their Activities Calendars throughout the week, Beer & Brats, Wine Tastings, etc.


----------



## Fasttr

In my welcome email for an upcoming stay at GO, among the amenities listed is.....



> Pool Bar, serving world-renowned fresh frozen alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages.



"*world-renowned*".... based on comments above on the quality of the current drink selections, perhaps that boilerplate email communication needs to be updated.


----------



## Marathoner

So, I am at GO this week for the first time and here are my observations on the Pool Bar (no more Jim).

Generally, the bar is half full or less.  I don't know what the crowds were like before but there are no crowds now.

My kids (10, 8, 7) gave the shakes a 9 out of 10 whereas I thought the shakes were poor.  From this, I take away that it is subjective what each of us like.  

Only a couple of the drinks were $17.  Most were between $9-$15.

I don't know which drinks were given sidecars and which were not previously.  I can tell you that no sidecars were given for the $9 margaritas and mojitos on the menu that I ordered.

I was reading at the bar a little bit and from what I could tell of the conversations around me, Jim is currently looking for a spot to open his own bar and the menu is definitely different now than it used to be because the bartenders mentioned a few times that they no longer make the drink that were requested by a few of the people ordering at the bar.


----------



## Marathoner

Forgot to mention - my mojito was pretty good, the margarita was just ok.  Neither were memorable, much less world class.  I guess I will never know what I missed...

Adding - the ingredients were fresh fruits for my alcoholic drinks and genuine oreo cookies for the kids cookies and cream shake.  I don't know what was in the mix even after I asked the bartender but they acted like the mix was freshly made as well.  So, it is not true that they are using canned/non-fresh ingredients for the drinks.


----------



## cayman01

*a clash of egos*

To clarify some thiings, I have never been to GO, do not own Marriott, and had never heard of PBJ before coming across this thread a couple hours ago. I AM a bartender and have been one for over 30 years, and I have run into situations that are probably very similar to the PBJ situation. I cannot say for certain not knowing all the facts, but let me offer a little insight.

 First, I will bet dollars to donuts that the drinks not being run up is NOT true. If the pool bar is as busy as has been described during Jim's tenure, and at $10+ a drink the guy had to be making nearly a $1000/day in tips for  an 8 hour shift. There would be absolutely no reason whatsoever to not ring up a drink and pocket the money. NONE. Why would anybody jeopardize that kind of tip revenue. A good bartender will make at least 25% in tips on his sales, and by all accounts Jim is a pretty good bartender.

 Second, there is way more to making a good drink than just following a recipe out of a book. And in Jim's case, with all those exotics that he apparently made (200+ ???) it takes a long time to refine and get your mix right. Throw in fresh fruit and you add a whole new dimension. Easy to see why the menu has not only been shortened but the new bartenders are not good with what they are making. Hopefully they get it worked out.

 Thirdly, I think what has happened here is a unfortunate clash of egos between the new GM and Jim. Marriott brought this gentleman in along with plans to change the bar and other areas of GO. Jim probably looked over the plans and balked at them. And probably with very good reason as there seems to be a consensus that the new bar is far inferior to the old one. But the new GM felt he had to stand his ground and wasn't going to let a bartender tell him what to do. Jim held his ground and being the one lower on the totem pole he lost out. I highly doubt you will see PBJ at GO ever again. In fact, if I was HGVC (? or whoever is building next door), I would be knocking on Jim's door every day to get him to work there.

 Fourth, free drinks controversy. Once again, a good bartender doesn't have to give away drinks to get tips. A BAD one does and deserves to be fired. I think we know which category PBJ is in. I am sure Jim gave a few away during a shift to show appreciation to people who had spent a significant amount on their bar bill. It is goodwill, and keeps people coming back to spend money in the bar. It's more of an investment in the customer than a giveaway. I am not surprised that PBJ's was the highest volume bar in the Marriott chain. Jim knew how to take care of his customers. Good drinks, good service, good atmosphere.

 Lastly, I hope Marriott has learned a lesson here. Sometimes it is best to leave things as they are. They have taken the best performing bar in their system and quite simply screwed it up completely. The customers are unhappy, the staff unhappy, the drinks poor and thousands/day in lost revenue. I am pretty certain this was not their plan. Everybody has lost in this deal. Especially Marriott. A good beach bar nets a company thousands a day and is easily the biggest onsite moneymaker for a resort because of the markup. That $17 drink probably costs about $4 to make if that.

 Hopefully things get resolved to everybody's satisfaction, but i doubt that will happen. Pretty sure y'all have seen the last of PBJ at GO, sorry to say.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

cayman01 said:


> To clarify some thiings, I have never been to GO, do not own Marriott, and had never heard of PBJ before coming across this thread a couple hours ago. I AM a bartender and have been one for over 30 years, and I have run into situations that are probably very similar to the PBJ situation. I cannot say for certain not knowing all the facts, but let me offer a little insight.
> 
> First, I will bet dollars to donuts that the drinks not being run up is NOT true. If the pool bar is as busy as has been described during Jim's tenure, and at $10+ a drink the guy had to be making nearly a $1000/day in tips for  an 8 hour shift. There would be absolutely no reason whatsoever to not ring up a drink and pocket the money. NONE. Why would anybody jeopardize that kind of tip revenue. A good bartender will make at least 25% in tips on his sales, and by all accounts Jim is a pretty good bartender.
> 
> Second, there is way more to making a good drink than just following a recipe out of a book. And in Jim's case, with all those exotics that he apparently made (200+ ???) it takes a long time to refine and get your mix right. Throw in fresh fruit and you add a whole new dimension. Easy to see why the menu has not only been shortened but the new bartenders are not good with what they are making. Hopefully they get it worked out.
> 
> Thirdly, I think what has happened here is a unfortunate clash of egos between the new GM and Jim. Marriott brought this gentleman in along with plans to change the bar and other areas of GO. Jim probably looked over the plans and balked at them. And probably with very good reason as there seems to be a consensus that the new bar is far inferior to the old one. But the new GM felt he had to stand his ground and wasn't going to let a bartender tell him what to do. Jim held his ground and being the one lower on the totem pole he lost out. I highly doubt you will see PBJ at GO ever again. In fact, if I was HGVC (? or whoever is building next door), I would be knocking on Jim's door every day to get him to work there.
> 
> Fourth, free drinks controversy. Once again, a good bartender doesn't have to give away drinks to get tips. A BAD one does and deserves to be fired. I think we know which category PBJ is in. I am sure Jim gave a few away during a shift to show appreciation to people who had spent a significant amount on their bar bill. It is goodwill, and keeps people coming back to spend money in the bar. It's more of an investment in the customer than a giveaway. I am not surprised that PBJ's was the highest volume bar in the Marriott chain. Jim knew how to take care of his customers. Good drinks, good service, good atmosphere.
> 
> Lastly, I hope Marriott has learned a lesson here. Sometimes it is best to leave things as they are. They have taken the best performing bar in their system and quite simply screwed it up completely. The customers are unhappy, the staff unhappy, the drinks poor and thousands/day in lost revenue. I am pretty certain this was not their plan. Everybody has lost in this deal. Especially Marriott. A good beach bar nets a company thousands a day and is easily the biggest onsite moneymaker for a resort because of the markup. That $17 drink probably costs about $4 to make if that.
> 
> Hopefully things get resolved to everybody's satisfaction, but i doubt that will happen. Pretty sure y'all have seen the last of PBJ at GO, sorry to say.






Very well said....



.


----------



## MabelP

Yes, very well said.


----------



## davidvel

cayman01 said:


> To clarify some thiings, I have never been to GO, do not own Marriott, and had never heard of PBJ before coming across this thread a couple hours ago. I AM a bartender and have been one for over 30 years, and I have run into situations that are probably very similar to the PBJ situation. I cannot say for certain not knowing all the facts, but let me offer a little insight.
> 
> *First, I will bet dollars to donuts that the drinks not being run up is NOT true.*
> ...
> 
> Fourth, free drinks controversy. Once again, a good bartender doesn't have to give away drinks to get tips. A BAD one does and deserves to be fired. I think we know which category PBJ is in. *I am sure Jim gave a few away during a shift to show appreciation to people who had spent a significant amount on their bar bill.* It is goodwill, and keeps people coming back to spend money in the bar. It's more of an investment in the customer than a giveaway. I am not surprised that PBJ's was the highest volume bar in the Marriott chain. *Jim knew how to take care of his customers. *Good drinks, good service, good atmosphere.


It's not true he didn't charge for drinks, but you *are sure* he gave away a few free drinks...?


----------



## Ty1on

cayman01 said:


> To clarify some thiings, I have never been to GO, do not own Marriott, and had never heard of PBJ before coming across this thread a couple hours ago. I AM a bartender and have been one for over 30 years, and I have run into situations that are probably very similar to the PBJ situation. I cannot say for certain not knowing all the facts, but let me offer a little insight.
> 
> First, I will bet dollars to donuts that the drinks not being run up is NOT true. If the pool bar is as busy as has been described during Jim's tenure, and at $10+ a drink the guy had to be making nearly a $1000/day in tips for  an 8 hour shift. There would be absolutely no reason whatsoever to not ring up a drink and pocket the money. NONE. Why would anybody jeopardize that kind of tip revenue. A good bartender will make at least 25% in tips on his sales, and by all accounts Jim is a pretty good bartender.
> 
> Second, there is way more to making a good drink than just following a recipe out of a book. And in Jim's case, with all those exotics that he apparently made (200+ ???) it takes a long time to refine and get your mix right. Throw in fresh fruit and you add a whole new dimension. Easy to see why the menu has not only been shortened but the new bartenders are not good with what they are making. Hopefully they get it worked out.
> 
> Thirdly, I think what has happened here is a unfortunate clash of egos between the new GM and Jim. Marriott brought this gentleman in along with plans to change the bar and other areas of GO. Jim probably looked over the plans and balked at them. And probably with very good reason as there seems to be a consensus that the new bar is far inferior to the old one. But the new GM felt he had to stand his ground and wasn't going to let a bartender tell him what to do. Jim held his ground and being the one lower on the totem pole he lost out. I highly doubt you will see PBJ at GO ever again. In fact, if I was HGVC (? or whoever is building next door), I would be knocking on Jim's door every day to get him to work there.
> 
> Fourth, free drinks controversy. Once again, a good bartender doesn't have to give away drinks to get tips. A BAD one does and deserves to be fired. I think we know which category PBJ is in. I am sure Jim gave a few away during a shift to show appreciation to people who had spent a significant amount on their bar bill. It is goodwill, and keeps people coming back to spend money in the bar. It's more of an investment in the customer than a giveaway. I am not surprised that PBJ's was the highest volume bar in the Marriott chain. Jim knew how to take care of his customers. Good drinks, good service, good atmosphere.
> 
> Lastly, I hope Marriott has learned a lesson here. Sometimes it is best to leave things as they are. They have taken the best performing bar in their system and quite simply screwed it up completely. The customers are unhappy, the staff unhappy, the drinks poor and thousands/day in lost revenue. I am pretty certain this was not their plan. Everybody has lost in this deal. Especially Marriott. A good beach bar nets a company thousands a day and is easily the biggest onsite moneymaker for a resort because of the markup. That $17 drink probably costs about $4 to make if that.
> 
> Hopefully things get resolved to everybody's satisfaction, but i doubt that will happen. Pretty sure y'all have seen the last of PBJ at GO, sorry to say.



It is clear that you approach this from a perspective defensive of the bartender, which I completely respect and understand, given your background.  I have a background auditing bartenders for many years, and would like to offer a different perspective.


1.  Bartenders can and do steal from their employers, and that behavior, by my experience, is independent of how successful they are in earning tips.  We've caught some of our most personable bartenders stealing, either by straight up collecting for drinks and not ringing them, by counting toothpicks (before meters), or with hookups for friends or excessive comps for good tippers.  

2.  Invariably when confronted after multiple observations by shoppers and surveillance, they claim to have just forgotten to ring that drink, and argue that they are the most important people in the bar and we will lose customers for firing them.  They never steal and are never wrong.  For the excessive comps, they argue that their purpose is to generate business and customer loyalty for the bar, when it is clear by who they are comping that they are simply taking care of their tippers on the company dime.


4.  In the case of PBJ (regardless why he was let go), it appears to actually be the case that his termination has affected business, but we don't know the operational details of the business as he ran it, as a crowded but mismanaged bar can lose money, or at least not make what it should.  At any rate, I believe that in time, business will return to usual.  I've seen patrons ask what happened to their favored bartender, and forget about them after their third drink.

5.  Bartenders know a lot about their bar, but they know about their bar from their perspective.  Asked to help optimize the bar, an experienced bartender will make suggestions that maximize his tips instead of bar revenue (a price of $8 will increase her chances of a $2 tip over a $9 price, for example).  Bartenders don't know (or likely care) about how their bar fits into the overall strategic goals of the resort.  The GM is responsible for that, and whether you want to call it a clash of egos or a disagreement over strategic direction, it is the GM, not the bartender, who is responsible for the holistic success of the property.

Now the truth is likely somewhere between our biased extremes.  I do firmly believe that given the icon that PBJ had become at the resort, terminating their relationship is not something management took lightly or frivolously.


----------



## cayman01

*clarifying*



davidvel said:


> It's not true he didn't charge for drinks, but you *are sure* he gave away a few free drinks...?



Comping a drink for a customer with a large tab is a far cry from taking somebody's money for a drink, putting it in your pocket, and not ringing it up. That's all I am trying to say here.


----------



## Dean

cayman01 said:


> Lastly, I hope Marriott has learned a lesson here. Sometimes it is best to leave things as they are. They have taken the best performing bar in their system and quite simply screwed it up completely. The customers are unhappy, the staff unhappy, the drinks poor and thousands/day in lost revenue. I am pretty certain this was not their plan. Everybody has lost in this deal. Especially Marriott. A good beach bar nets a company thousands a day and is easily the biggest onsite moneymaker for a resort because of the markup. That $17 drink probably costs about $4 to make if that.
> 
> Hopefully things get resolved to everybody's satisfaction, but i doubt that will happen. Pretty sure y'all have seen the last of PBJ at GO, sorry to say.


I agree it's a sad situation for whatever reason.  I'm not personally willing to accept your premise that Marriott made a mistake as your post seems to imply or that the person in question didn't do anything wrong, we simply don't know.  The truth is NONE of us know what really happened because if we did, we couldn't talk about it.  



Ty1on said:


> Now the truth is likely somewhere between our biased extremes.  I do firmly believe that given the icon that PBJ had become at the resort, terminating their relationship is not something management took lightly or frivolously.


I agree and essentially the point I made earlier but you said it so much better than did I and with direct experience of the situation to back it up, thanks.  As eloquent as cayman01's post was, one could provide the exact same type of post as to why Marriott would never do this on a whim or inappropriately, again we simply don't know.



cayman01 said:


> Comping a drink for a customer with a large tab is a far cry from taking somebody's money for a drink, putting it in your pocket, and not ringing it up. That's all I am trying to say here.


Maybe but maybe not.  If one doesn't ring up the drinks and pockets the money, that's stealing.  But if one provides comps outside the direction of those in a position to provide it for the purpose of giving someone a benefit or for the purpose of increasing tips, those are stealing also.  I don't know for certain but my guess is Marriott resorts have a no comp policy unless it's for a complaint or problem type situation.


----------



## cayman01

Ty1on said:


> It is clear that you approach this from a perspective defensive of the bartender, which I completely respect and understand, given your background.  I have a background auditing bartenders for many years, and would like to offer a different perspective.
> 
> 
> 1.  Bartenders can and do steal from their employers, and that behavior, by my experience, is independent of how successful they are in earning tips.  We've caught some of our most personable bartenders stealing, either by straight up collecting for drinks and not ringing them, by counting toothpicks (before meters), or with hookups for friends or excessive comps for good tippers.
> 
> 2.  Invariably when confronted after multiple observations by shoppers and surveillance, they claim to have just forgotten to ring that drink, and argue that they are the most important people in the bar and we will lose customers for firing them.  They never steal and are never wrong.  For the excessive comps, they argue that their purpose is to generate business and customer loyalty for the bar, when it is clear by who they are comping that they are simply taking care of their tippers on the company dime.
> 
> 
> 4.  In the case of PBJ (regardless why he was let go), it appears to actually be the case that his termination has affected business, but we don't know the operational details of the business as he ran it, as a crowded but mismanaged bar can lose money, or at least not make what it should.  At any rate, I believe that in time, business will return to usual.  I've seen patrons ask what happened to their favored bartender, and forget about them after their third drink.
> 
> 5.  Bartenders know a lot about their bar, but they know about their bar from their perspective.  Asked to help optimize the bar, an experienced bartender will make suggestions that maximize his tips instead of bar revenue (a price of $8 will increase her chances of a $2 tip over a $9 price, for example).  Bartenders don't know (or likely care) about how their bar fits into the overall strategic goals of the resort.  The GM is responsible for that, and whether you want to call it a clash of egos or a disagreement over strategic direction, it is the GM, not the bartender, who is responsible for the holistic success of the property.
> 
> Now the truth is likely somewhere between our biased extremes.  I do firmly believe that given the icon that PBJ had become at the resort, terminating their relationship is not something management took lightly or frivolously.




 We definitely have areas of agreement here. With respect to your points:

1. Yes, there are bartenders who steal. No doubt, and many of them are quite personable. But being personable does not equate to being a good bartender. there is much more to it than that. Chatting up a customer at the bar is being personable, knowing what they drink when they come in after a year's absence and making it without asking is being a good bartender. And again, my point with PBJ was that ,with the money he was making in tips off his sales,he not only didn't need to steal but would have been foolish to even entertain the thought.

2. 100 % agree. Again, if you have to give away drinks to get tips you're not a good bartender.

3. seems to be missing

4. We will agree to disagree on this one. All the locals and many of the GO owners who followed PBJ will end up wherever he surfaces if it is on HHI. Good bartenders have followers, and they go where he/she goes.

5. I see your point here and I think this is where the problems arose in the PBJ situation. Bartenders don't always look out for their own self interest, some do some don't. Management doesn't always know the right way to approach things, sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong. Here is where it gets interesting. I think PBJ took one look at the bar plans and saw a lot of problems with it. I ALSO think that with the previous GM he probably had carte blanche as far as the bar goes. I mean he's been there 20 years right? The new GM probably told him thanks but no thanks this is the way we are going to go and from there the relationship headed south. Egos clashed, the crap hit the fan, and Marriott is stuck with a mess to clean up.
Yes, the GM may be responsible for the success, but if his people are not on board with him he has ZERO chance of attaining that success.


----------



## SueDonJ

I honestly don't think the GM has as much power over the resort happenings as some of you seem to think.  The GM is hired/placed by MVW and is there to do their bidding, not that of the owners.  Think of the GM as the middleman between the onsite employees and MVW, and, the HOA Board as the middleman between the owners and MVW.  Both the GM and the Board have only as much control as MVW is willing to cede to them which I don't think is very much.  It doesn't make any sense to me that the GM took unilateral action to remove PBJ - if MVW wanted him or the bar to remain on property, I'd bet my last dollar that these changes wouldn't have happened.

The drama is continuing on several Facebook pages and other social media sites.  It's astounding to me how many people are saying they're going to take their money and stay elsewhere, essentially boycotting the resort.  The GO owners on TUG always play up the owner-occupancy rates but going by all the chatter it sure seems like there've been a whole lot of cash-stay guests over the years.  And that's not counting all the bar regulars who don't stay onsite (which I've said a number of times would turn me off to any MVW resort, so if I were a GO owner I'd be happy that they're gone.)


----------



## Fasttr

SueDonJ said:


> I honestly don't think the GM has as much power over the resort happenings as some of you seem to think.  The GM is hired/placed by MVW and is there to do their bidding, not that of the owners.  Think of the GM as the middleman between the onsite employees and MVW, and, the HOA Board as the middleman between the owners and MVW.  Both the GM and the Board have only as much control as MVW is willing to cede to them which I don't think is very much.  It doesn't make any sense to me that the GM took unilateral action to remove PBJ - if MVW wanted him or the bar to remain on property, I'd bet my last dollar that these changes wouldn't have happened.
> 
> The drama is continuing on several Facebook pages and other social media sites.  It's astounding to me how many people are saying they're going to take their money and stay elsewhere, essentially boycotting the resort.  The GO owners on TUG always play up the owner-occupancy rates but going by all the chatter it sure seems like there've been a whole lot of cash-stay guests over the years.  And that's not counting all the bar regulars who don't stay onsite (which I've said a number of times would turn me off to any MVW resort, so if I were a GO owner I'd be happy that they're gone.)



I tend to agree with your read on the GM's power....or lack thereof, and like you posted somewhere above, I too very early on, wondered if this was not more likely tied to the image MVC wanted to portray to the folks on a sales presentation taking the tour of GO.  MVC makes far more money via selling DC points than they do selling a frozen drink.... and as soon as it was decided the sales center was going in across the street and the path the sales walkthroughs of GO would take would be right past the pool bar, the new pool bar deck/walkway expansion plans and resulting construction started and the talk of a freshening up of the bar itself started, followed by a new bar altogether, followed by PBJ's T-shirt sales being banished from the area, etc, etc.  MVC clearly had a vision, and I agree with you, it did not start in the GM's mind.  

Its also very likely that vision did not include an overcrowded pool bar with non-resort guests hanging around,  a rack of T's in the corner sold in a haphazard, non MVC Marketplace sort of way, etc, etc.  MVC sales folks like to paint a picture in the minds of prospective point purchasers, and controlling that picture is very important.  A nice relaxing pool and pool bar likely sells more points than a loud overcrowded pool bar, especially if the picture you are painting is that of a relaxed family vacation destination.  The flip side of that new paradigm is that a crowded pool bar generates much more tips for the bar tenders than a non crowded one does, and the elimination of the T-shirt sales revenue was another direct hit to PBJ's pocketbook....thus a potential stressful conversation between PBJ and the GM who was tasked to manage the migration.  (all clearly conjecture on my part of course!!)

And in my effort to add to the various conspiracy theories here... regarding your comments on the Facebook drama.... perhaps this is all just a grand scheme by MVC to get GO owners to enroll their weeks, convert to DC points and use their ownership somewhere else to open up GO to increased DC point usage by non GO owners.  Hmmmmm.


----------



## cayman01

Dean said:


> Maybe but maybe not.  If one doesn't ring up the drinks and pockets the money, that's stealing.  But if one provides comps outside the direction of those in a position to provide it for the purpose of giving someone a benefit or for the purpose of increasing tips, those are stealing also.  I don't know for certain but my guess is Marriott resorts have a no comp policy unless it's for a complaint or problem type situation.



Not to pick on you Dean in particular but this idea of him pocketing money from a drink has to end. Here is a guy who is easily making $800-1000 a shift in tips, who has HIS own recipe books and HIS own t-shirts being sold by Marriott, has been established for TWENTY years in the same bar and people flock to the bar to see him and order from him. Give me ONE lucid reasonable reason why he would pocket a $10 drink tab.

And after twenty years at the bar I am pretty sure he could comp anybody he felt was justified. Y'all can use that argument to justify that position in a lot ,if not ,most cases, but in this one it doesn't hold water.


----------



## SueDonJ

cayman01 said:


> Not to pick on you Dean in particular but this idea of him pocketing money from a drink has to end. Here is a guy who is easily making $800-1000 a shift in tips, who has HIS own recipe books and HIS own t-shirts being sold by Marriott, has been established for TWENTY years in the same bar and people flock to the bar to see him and order from him. Give me ONE lucid reasonable reason why he would pocket a $10 drink tab.
> 
> And after twenty years at the bar I am pretty sure he could comp anybody he felt was justified. Y'all can use that argument to justify that position in a lot ,if not ,most cases, but in this one it doesn't hold water.



The idea of him pocketing money comes from a Facebook post on his page put there months ago by someone using his name.  He certainly knows that it's being repeated all over social media which you would think would hurt him because he says he's looking for a new place.  But for whatever reason he has chosen not to edit the post despite the fact that he has total control over doing so.  Isn't it possible that it's still there because it puts Marriott in a bad light as an alleged accuser?  His hordes of supporters are having heart palpitations over the very idea but that's on him - Marriott hasn't uttered a single public criticism of him, and none of the involved parties have stated the real reasons why he's not there anymore.

Anyway, if you think it "must end," you might want to tell him that.


----------



## SueDonJ

cayman01 said:


> ... Give me ONE lucid reasonable reason why he would pocket a $10 drink tab. ...



Really?  You can't think of one?  For twenty years he was allowed to control a bar that carried his name and his branded products, products that practically flew off the shelves and put money in his pockets.  Here comes MVW making changes to the set-up, not all of which have been explained but at least one is clear - his products were no longer available for sale at the site.  You're really not the least bit curious what the bar take was for the month or so that he was there without his products, compared to the same period a year ago?

See?  I was able to think of a lucid reason and I'm on record as saying I think this whole situation is a simple matter of PBJ and MVW not being able to reach a mutual decision about how the new place would be run.  I don't think that PBJ did anything nefarious because if he had, the smart thing would have been to remove that post from Facebook long before now.  But if the story is going to be that PBJ is a completely innocent victim and Marriott is the Big Bad Bully blatantly at fault, which PBJ and his supporters are only too happy to accept unconditionally and perpetuate, then folks are going to feel justified in asking questions and speculating.  Especially folks who are knowledgeable about how MVW runs these set-ups at their other timeshares.  That's only natural.


----------



## Marathoner

cayman01 said:


> Give me ONE lucid reasonable reason why he would pocket a $10 drink tab.



Nobody is saying that PBJ did this, but a simple reason is that the more money that people have, the more they want.  Look at Madoff, Skilling of Enron, and all the other financial crooks who made more money in a single year than most people did in a lifetime - and that is prior to their fraud.


----------



## davidvel

Marathoner said:


> Nobody is saying that PBJ did this, but a simple reason is that the more money that people have, the more they want.  Look at Madoff, Skilling of Enron, and all the other financial crooks who made more money in a single year than most people did in a lifetime - and that is prior to their fraud.


I agree. Saying that there is absolutely no way he did this is as unreasonable  as saying that he absolutely did.


----------



## Dean

cayman01 said:


> Not to pick on you Dean in particular but this idea of him pocketing money from a drink has to end. Here is a guy who is easily making $800-1000 a shift in tips, who has HIS own recipe books and HIS own t-shirts being sold by Marriott, has been established for TWENTY years in the same bar and people flock to the bar to see him and order from him. Give me ONE lucid reasonable reason why he would pocket a $10 drink tab.
> 
> And after twenty years at the bar I am pretty sure he could comp anybody he felt was justified. Y'all can use that argument to justify that position in a lot ,if not ,most cases, but in this one it doesn't hold water.


Others have addressed that general question, I don't know if he did or didn't and NONE of us do.  So to say it absolutely happened or didn't happen in this situation would both be unreasonable stances.  But my point in this case was not to even say it might have happened but rather to clarify the FALSE idea that comping drinks was automatically not stealing, it can easily be stealing and can be just as inappropriate.  The example of pocketing cash and not ringing up drinks was simply for comparison as a benchmark.  IMO you're making assumptions I'm not willing to make.  The reality is that SOMETHING happened that got it to this point and we don't know what it was other than there was a report of possible issues relating to how drinks were rung up.

If I had to guess, I'd agree with you that it likely came down more to a conflict than anything else or it'd have been a termination from the get go rather than a suspension.  What led to the conflict and who fueled it, again we simply don't know.  It's likely that both parties could/should have handled themselves differently and likely that both wish they had.


----------



## Superchief

SueDonJ said:


> I honestly don't think the GM has as much power over the resort happenings as some of you seem to think.  The GM is hired/placed by MVW and is there to do their bidding, not that of the owners.  Think of the GM as the middleman between the onsite employees and MVW, and, the HOA Board as the middleman between the owners and MVW.  Both the GM and the Board have only as much control as MVW is willing to cede to them which I don't think is very much.  It doesn't make any sense to me that the GM took unilateral action to remove PBJ - if MVW wanted him or the bar to remain on property, I'd bet my last dollar that these changes wouldn't have happened.



I will have to respectfully disagree with you regarding the 'power' of a GM. I have owned MVC since the early 80's and now own 5 weeks plus trust points. The quality of the GM has dramatic impact on the quality of the resort experience, as well as efficient use of MF's. A good GM attracts and keeps good employees, and recognizes the importance of appreciating and listening to owners. The Palms had a great GM for many years until his unexpected passing, and I always enjoyed fantastic experiences there (while MF's increased at a reasonable rate). Oceana Palms currently has a great GM who works side by side with staff, and is readily accessible to owners and guests. He remembers me every year, and I only own one Gold week there. On the other hand, the treatment of owners at Canyon Villas is less positive and MF's have gone up substantially the last two years. A previous GM's staff at Mountainside allowed unsupervised children run rampant in the fitness center, so I avoided stays during the months Utah schools were out. These are things that can be impacted by the GM.

Personally, I am more concerned about the fitness center than the bar (I primarily drink wine and like to work out so I can eat and drink what I want). I find the fitness center at GO to be rather disappointing, so I would like to see them expand and improve it. However, I respect long-term owners who looked forward to PBJ visits every year and found it to be a special experience when I was there last year. If the closing of the bar was a result of a power struggle with the new GM, then I think owners will experience a decline in overall service at the resort. If the new GM was only the messenger of a new direction from MVC management, then I hope he focuses on things he can due to improve the overall guest experiences and attract quality staff.


----------



## cayman01

SueDonJ said:


> Really?  You can't think of one?  For twenty years he was allowed to control a bar that carried his name and his branded products, products that practically flew off the shelves and put money in his pockets.  Here comes MVW making changes to the set-up, not all of which have been explained but at least one is clear - his products were no longer available for sale at the site.  You're really not the least bit curious what the bar take was for the month or so that he was there without his products, compared to the same period a year ago?
> 
> See?  I was able to think of a lucid reason and I'm on record as saying I think this whole situation is a simple matter of PBJ and MVW not being able to reach a mutual decision about how the new place would be run.  I don't think that PBJ did anything nefarious because if he had, the smart thing would have been to remove that post from Facebook long before now.  But if the story is going to be that PBJ is a completely innocent victim and Marriott is the Big Bad Bully blatantly at fault, which PBJ and his supporters are only too happy to accept unconditionally and perpetuate, then folks are going to feel justified in asking questions and speculating.  Especially folks who are knowledgeable about how MVW runs these set-ups at their other timeshares.  That's only natural.



 I respectfully disagree. I know nothing about the FB post, never even looked at it, but if that was his plan he certainly has gotten a lot of mileage out of it.
We agree on the reason for the falling out. There is just no way that I can see this guy pocketing a small tab as a way of getting back at Marriott. He was still making a bundle in tips. Maybe he was planning to leave for HGVC, and Marriott got wind of the deal. He didn't like the new GM or the changes, he makes plans to leave, Marriott finds out and slaps him with a no compete clause. Now this is rampant speculation and I have no evidence to prove the theory, but it would fit with the FB post not being taken down.


----------



## sparty

What gets me about the long thread is you can see it's about MVW and PBJ.

Who really owns and controls the resort? Everyone was sold a form of ownership by Marriott but it's not really clear what the lines are between management and owners are.  And I don't think this is just misperception, misunderstanding  of TUG'ers as MVW has told me before. It is reality, MVW operates like they fully own and control the resort. This is wrong.

I always advocate for the will of the owners.  The HOA Board of Directors at GO should be listening and acting based on the owners position and not be controlled by MVW.  This discussion should be about how the BoD is handing the situation with PBJ.  

Ownership at  a MVW resort is a bit(?)  of an illusion.


----------



## SueDonJ

sparty said:


> What gets me about the long thread is you can see it's about MVW and PBJ.
> 
> Who really owns and controls the resort? Everyone was sold a form of ownership by Marriott but it's not really clear what the lines are between management and owners are.  And I don't think this is just misperception, misunderstanding  of TUG'ers as MVW has told me before. It is reality, MVW operates like they fully own and control the resort. This is wrong.
> 
> I always advocate for the will of the owners.  The HOA Board of Directors at GO should be listening and acting based on the owners position and not be controlled by MVW.  This discussion should be about how the BoD is handing the situation with PBJ.
> 
> *Ownership at  a MVW resort is a bit(?)  of an illusion.*



To me it's not an illusion at all.  Despite the deeds for each Week stipulating that we own a real estate interest that can be passed to our heirs, I know that effectively we only own the right to use 1/50th (or 1/51, whatever) of one unit at the resort, if we follow the rules.  Everything about the ownership, and I mean everything, is stipulated in the Timeshare Declaration, Master Deed and Management Agreement governing docs, and those only protect the owners insofar as Marriott is forced to give us protections afforded by state/federal laws.  We're given voting rights but for only the items which state/federal laws require, and even then Marriott's voting rights are at least equal to ours.  Everything else is written in Marriott's favor, and if we want their name on the door and all of the attendant perks/benefits that come with it, we won't rise up in sufficient numbers to make them walk away.

I'd guess the BOD at GO is powerless as to the employment/contractual arrangement between MVW and PBJ.  Jim couldn't have been onsite all those years without that arrangement (because the docs prohibit commercial ventures onsite unless sanctioned by the Management Company,) and the Boards don't do the hiring/firing of employees.  The GO Board should be acting in its capacity to collect the thoughts of owners and present them to MVW but that's about all it can do with this.


----------



## JIMinNC

sparty said:


> What gets me about the long thread is you can see it's about MVW and PBJ.
> 
> Who really owns and controls the resort? Everyone was sold a form of ownership by Marriott but it's not really clear what the lines are between management and owners are.  And I don't think this is just misperception, misunderstanding  of TUG'ers as MVW has told me before. It is reality, MVW operates like they fully own and control the resort. This is wrong.
> 
> I always advocate for the will of the owners.  The HOA Board of Directors at GO should be listening and acting based on the owners position and not be controlled by MVW.  This discussion should be about how the BoD is handing the situation with PBJ.
> 
> Ownership at  a MVW resort is a bit(?)  of an illusion.



I've stayed out of this lengthy discussion because I don't have a dog in the fight, having never stayed at Grande Ocean (although I'm hopeful that status will change next fall), but I want to respond to this.

The Board of Directors does not manage the property on a day-to-day basis. They approve the budgets and hire MVW to take on the day-to-day management decisions. Who the bartender is and how the bar is run is not something a board would typically get involved in at any resort.

If the Board disagrees with some aspect of how MVW is managing the resort, they can provide more direction on important issues, but BODs typically do not micromanage the resort management. Both the Board and the management company also have to balance the wishes of a diverse group of owners and make the best decisions they can. How do we know that is not happening in this case? If the Board has met since this whole thing blew up, I would bet it was discussed. But just because there are vocal owners who loved the previous bar experience at GO and are now angry, doesn't mean there aren't an equally large group who are now happy that the bar is less crowded with non-guests. I know if I were a guest at GO, I think I would be among those who would prefer a less crowded atmosphere. Maybe there were increasing complaints about bar overcrowding in the surveys MVW does after guests check-out - we may never know - but don't automatically assume that the decisions made in this case were only designed to benefit MVW.


----------



## Marathoner

*PBJ menu*

Since everyone is so interested in this topic, here is the current menu from PBJ.  I'm sure the list and its presentation is a far cry from its glory days.  As mentioned, the drinks are relatively mediocre in quality but not actually bad. e.g. it tastes the same as any Marriott bar


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## Fasttr

Marathoner said:


> Since everyone is so interested in this topic, here is the current menu from *PBJ*.  I'm sure the list and its presentation is a far cry from its glory days.  As mentioned, the drinks are relatively mediocre in quality but not actually bad. e.g. it tastes the same as any Marriott bar



I believe its now just.... *PB*


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## Superchief

I see nothing special that is worth the premium price on this menu. Unless they have a good happy hour, I would just drink my own beer, wine, or make my own drinks. Timeshares are not like hotels, and we aren't at the mercy of their high prices and avg. quality. PBJ provided a premium quality that justified a premium price. If this bar wants to be successful, they will need to have good happy hours like most other MVC resorts.


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## SueDonJ

JIMinNC said:


> ... The Board of Directors does not manage the property on a day-to-day basis. They approve the budgets and hire MVW to take on the day-to-day management decisions. Who the bartender is and how the bar is run is not something a board would typically get involved in at any resort. ...



I agree with you, the Boards don't micromanage either the onsite GM or MVW as the Management Company, and, they wouldn't be involved in any bar/restaurant ventures for which MVW as the Management Company is responsible and reaps the profit or loss.  I don't think GO owners subsidize or reap profit/loss from PBJ or its replacement?

A couple technical things, though ... The Boards do approve the annual budgets but they're not alone.  MVW as the Management Company reviews all financials and works with the Boards to develop preliminary budgets which are reviewed extensively by the Boards, who can then make suggestions for changes (which may or may not be accepted by MVW,) after which MVW's final decisions are rubber-stamped by the Boards.

As for the Boards hiring - and firing - the Management Companies, MVW is stipulated in the Timeshare Declaration as the Management Company of all newly-developed MORI/MVC/MVW resorts, for a stated number of years with renewals thereafter.  That Declaration and the Management Agreement stipulate under what conditions and through which procedures the Boards and the ownership (via a complex majority vote) can fire/replace MVW.  It's not easy to remove MVW if they don't want to be removed during that initial term, it's only slightly easier during subsequent terms.  But it's comparatively a cinch for MVW to unilaterally walk away from a Marriott resort if that's what they want to do, taking the name with them (and notably, at some expense to the ownership if that's how MVW chooses to play.)

That's all, just technical mumbo-jumbo.


----------



## JIMinNC

SueDonJ said:


> I agree with you, the Boards don't micromanage either the onsite GM or MVW as the Management Company, and, they wouldn't be involved in any bar/restaurant ventures for which MVW as the Management Company is responsible and reaps the profit or loss.  I don't think GO owners subsidize or reap profit/loss from PBJ or its replacement?
> 
> A couple technical things, though ... The Boards do approve the annual budgets but they're not alone.  MVW as the Management Company reviews all financials and works with the Boards to develop preliminary budgets which are reviewed extensively by the Boards, who can then make suggestions for changes (which may or may not be accepted by MVW,) after which MVW's final decisions are rubber-stamped by the Boards.
> 
> As for the Boards hiring - and firing - the Management Companies, MVW is stipulated in the Timeshare Declaration as the Management Company of all newly-developed MORI/MVC/MVW resorts, for a stated number of years with renewals thereafter.  That Declaration and the Management Agreement stipulate under what conditions and through which procedures the Boards and the ownership (via a complex majority vote) can fire/replace MVW.  It's not easy to remove MVW if they don't want to be removed during that initial term, it's only slightly easier during subsequent terms.  But it's comparatively a cinch for MVW to unilaterally walk away from a Marriott resort if that's what they want to do, taking the name with them (and notably, at some expense to the ownership if that's how MVW chooses to play.)
> 
> That's all, just technical mumbo-jumbo.



Without a doubt...the timeshare terms and conditions are always skewed heavily in favor of the developer's interests, particularly in situations like Marriott where the developer controls a brand and a network of resorts that most owners want to continue to remain a part of. It's just the way it is.

Also since a 200-unit resort could have as many as 10,000 owners, each owner's voice is minuscule. Some timeshare HOAs even have difficulty securing enough proxies to have a quorum at the annual meeting. Trying to get enough owners engaged enough to truly change something about the management of the resort is near to impossible. Heck, even our regular neighborhood's HOA has had to implement very low quorum thresholds because they were having trouble getting people to send in proxies and our neighborhood is only about 300 homes.


----------



## Quilter

Just as a refresher, I posted earlier that this change mostly doesn't affect our stay at Grande Ocean.   Drinks made from the cartons of mix are more than I want to pay for cheap ingredients and a quality drink made with good fruit would be something I'd rather put together myself without having to watch the daily competition as bar goers vie for the  attention of the idol trying to get their "friend " to make their side car worthy of the tip.

ways the change could benefit our stay is the lower numbers to the pool bar crowd.  Funny I don't see that point high on the repeat drama list being connected to a loss of Jim's hometown resort moochers.   Are lounge chairs easier to find on the deck?

Facebook drama is very little more than just that (except to the true idol fan club) Last I looked there were repeats throwing out demands that MVC owes them full disclosure.  Drama that may be only hundreds of voices ( maybe less) out of the ten thousands of total owners.

If PBJ ends up some where else on island GO fans can move along too.  Time will settle GO into its new norm which sounds to me will exclude must of the drinkers who just wander in, and then wander, wander, wander


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## davidvel

Marathoner said:


> Since everyone is so interested in this topic, here is the current menu from PBJ.  I'm sure the list and its presentation is a far cry from its glory days.  As mentioned, the drinks are relatively mediocre in quality but not actually bad. e.g. it tastes the same as any Marriott bar


Forget all this fresh fruitiness drink business, there are no respectable beers on the list (although Fat Tire is drinkable.) *This is a bigger abomination than the loss of PBJ. * :ignore:


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## Superchief

davidvel said:


> Forget all this fresh fruitiness drink business, there are no respectable beers on the list (although Fat Tire is drinkable.) *This is a bigger abomination than the loss of PBJ. * :ignore:



I agree. Not only are there no really good beers (on tap) on the menu, but prices are unreasonable. I wish there was a Costco on Hilton Head. That would be the best way to improve my alcoholic beverage experiences at GO or other resorts in the area.


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## jd2601

Any idea how far the Costco is?  I believe off the island towards freeway?


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## burg1121

It seems obvious that the new bar situation is permanent. That being said there's no reason it has to suck. Hire some good bartenders, bring in Island Oasis products to expand the menu and serve some quality brews. The owners will have a good bar to drink at and you won't have all the walk in's that management and non drinkers want to get rid of. Everyone is happy and the die hard PBJ fans will meet at his new place down the beach. Also have a good happy hour to promote some goodwill. By the way $17.00 for any drink shows you that management either doesn't care about the patrons or is arrogant and stupid.


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## SueDonJ

burg1121 said:


> It seems obvious that the new bar situation is permanent. That being said there's no reason it has to suck. Hire some good bartenders, bring in Island Oasis products to expand the menu and serve some quality brews. The owners will have a good bar to drink at and you won't have all the walk in's that management and non drinkers want to get rid of. Everyone is happy and the die hard PBJ fans will meet at his new place down the beach.  Also have a good happy hour to promote some goodwill. By the way $17.00 for any drink shows you that management either doesn't care about the patrons or is arrogant and stupid.



They're trying to hire at least one new bartender - scroll down to the bottom on the MVW "Search Our Job Opportunities" page.  Hopefully any good candidates won't stumble across the drama on social media, wouldn't want them to think they'll be disliked/resented by the clientele from the get-go.

(A side note - it's not necessarily only non-drinkers who prefer onsite bars to be closed to walk-ins.)


----------



## SueDonJ

jd2601 said:


> Any idea how far the Costco is?  I believe off the island towards freeway?



Last fall there were some talk about a new one being developed at Okatie Crossing off 278, don't know how that's progressing.  There's a Sam's Club on Matthews Drive - do they stock beer/wine/liquor?


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## Big Matt

There's a Costco in Charleston, and yes they sell liquor.


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## jme

One of the best wine shops I've ever run across, not in a big city, is at the new Kroger Superstore at Town Center off Hwy 278 in Hilton Head (the old mall area).  I find the prices better than Costco when they both have the same bottle. 

Kroger, however, has a humungous and varied selection in every wine category-----unsurpassed if that's what you want more than just a "cheap" bottle of "something".  For example, they carry these cabernets, seldom found in a grocery store: Caymus, Mount Veeder, Hess, Stag's Leap, Mondavi Reserve, Duckhorn, Berenger Knights Valley, Louis Martini, Franciscan Estate, Educated Guess, Silver Oak, and more............. and good low-cost ones too, like a really wonderful Columbia Crest at $7.99.   Other stores carry it for $9.99-10.99. I love Columbia Crest for a day-to-day cabernet. And btw, Kroger's prices are at least 30% less than the cost of any same bottle at Fresh Market (known connoisseur's hang-out for food and wine).

Kroger often has sales events with 20% off per case (12 bottles, any brands mixed as you like). Just had a sale Aug 24-27, and my guy there (Barry Wilson) always emails me in case I want to run over to HH to stock up.  They have many of the good wines you might want.  The other 2 or 3 guys there are very knowledgeable too (Fred, Simou, or Jeff), but I like to catch Barry, as he lived in both France and Napa, CA for many years.



.


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## Superchief

jme said:


> One of the best wine shops I've ever run across, not in a big city, is at the new Kroger Superstore at Town Center off Hwy 278 in Hilton Head (the old mall area).  I find the prices better than Costco when they both have the same bottle.
> 
> Kroger, however, has a humungous and varied selection in every wine category-----unsurpassed if that's what you want more than just a "cheap" bottle of "something".  For example, they carry these cabernets, seldom found in a grocery store: Caymus, Mount Veeder, Hess, Stag's Leap, Mondavi Reserve, Duckhorn, Berenger Knights Valley, Louis Martini, Franciscan Estate, Educated Guess, Silver Oak, and more............. and good low-cost ones too, like a really wonderful Columbia Crest at $7.99.   Other stores carry it for $9.99-10.99. I love Columbia Crest for a day-to-day cabernet. And btw, Kroger's prices are at least 30% less than the cost of any same bottle at Fresh Market (known connoisseur's hang-out for food and wine).
> 
> Kroger often has sales events with 20% off per case (12 bottles, any brands mixed as you like). Just had a sale Aug 24-27, and my guy there (Barry Wilson) always emails me in case I want to run over to HH to stock up.  They have many of the good wines you might want.  The other 2 or 3 guys there are very knowledgeable, too, but I like to catch Barry, as he lived in both France and Napa, CA for many years.



Thanks for the great tips. Now I have another reason to go to Hilton Head. I prefer $20 tasting red wines for $8, although I've been known to splurge occasionally for wines that are worth it. Who need Costco or PBJ?

I'm heading to SF area next week and look forward to tasting at Ledson in Sonoma. We plan to get a few cases since we are traveling by train.


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## Luvtoride

SueDonJ said:


> They're trying to hire at least one new bartender - scroll down to the bottom on the MVW "Search Our Job Opportunities" page.  Hopefully any good candidates won't stumble across the drama on social media, wouldn't want them to think they'll be disliked/resented by the clientele from the get-go.
> 
> (A side note - it's not necessarily only non-drinkers who prefer onsite bars to be closed to walk-ins.)



I'm at GO pool bar right now (won't call it PBJ) and there is live music and the place is hopping.  For a cloudy afternoon (before the Hermine Storm tom'w), where the whole pool area seems pretty quiet, there is a good crowd here buying drinks and having a great time.  I saw the $17 drinks on the Specialty menu and thought that was ridiculous too!  Bartenders Orlando and Kevin are doing a good job at the bar. Drinks were good and generous.    All in all, not sure what anyone has to complain about (unless you order one of those $17 drinks).


----------



## Fasttr

Luvtoride said:


> I'm at GO pool bar right now (won't call it PBJ) and there is live music and the place is hopping.  For a cloudy afternoon (before the Hermine Storm tom'w), where the whole pool area seems pretty quiet, there is a good crowd here buying drinks and having a great time.  I saw the $17 drinks on the Specialty menu and thought that was ridiculous too!  Bartenders Orlando and Kevin are doing a good job at the bar. Drinks were good and generous.    All in all, not sure what anyone has to complain about (unless you order one of those $17 drinks).



Good to hear some positive feedback.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Luvtoride said:


> I'm at GO pool bar right now (won't call it PBJ) and there is live music and the place is hopping.  For a cloudy afternoon (before the Hermine Storm tom'w), where the whole pool area seems pretty quiet, there is a good crowd here buying drinks and having a great time.  I saw the $17 drinks on the Specialty menu and thought that was ridiculous too!  Bartenders Orlando and Kevin are doing a good job at the bar. Drinks were good and generous.    All in all, not sure what anyone has to complain about (unless you order one of those $17 drinks).



You must be celebrating that you are NOT in NJ .. where you would preparing for the Hurricane *alone*.


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## Luvtoride

vacationhopeful said:


> You must be celebrating that you are NOT in NJ .. where you would preparing for the Hurricane *alone*.





Haha, we're not thrilled to be here in the path of the storm.  We just left the GO pool area before they started putting all the pool chairs into the pools to prevent them from blowing around during the storm.  Not supposed to be a great weekend in NJ either, but Saturday here should be nice.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SueDonJ

Luvtoride said:


> Haha, we're not thrilled to be here in the path of the storm.  We just left the GO pool area before they started putting all the pool chairs into the pools to prevent them from blowing around during the storm.  Not supposed to be a great weekend in NJ either, but Saturday here should be nice.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Don left Raleigh about 4:30 this afternoon for the drive to Hilton Head; I'm hoping he gets there without too much difficulty.

Were you asked to take your outdoor furniture in at GO, or given any other instructions to prepare for tomorrow?  Make sure you listen to any auto-messages on the unit phone for those as well as for any "extras" that they offer guests - I've always known the resorts to do whatever they can to make guests more comfortable during unexpected events.  Stay dry and safe, be well.


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## JIMinNC

SueDonJ said:


> Don left Raleigh about 4:30 this afternoon for the drive to Hilton Head; I'm hoping he gets there without too much difficulty.
> 
> Were you asked to take your outdoor furniture in at GO, or given any other instructions to prepare for tomorrow?  Make sure you listen to any auto-messages on the unit phone for those as well as for any "extras" that they offer guests - I've always known the resorts to do whatever they can to make guests more comfortable during unexpected events.  Stay dry and safe, be well.



We're driving down to Barony on Friday for three nights. Leaving Charlotte after our daughter gets out of school at 3pm. Our son is driving in from Georgia Tech in Atlanta after getting off from work at an internship he's doing this semester. Hoping the worst of Hermine will be past HHI by the time we all get there. The latest 11pm National Hurricane Center forecast shows that by around 7-8pm Friday the center should be close to the Georgetown/Pawleys Island, SC area, so hopefully the worst will be clear of HHI since the heaviest weather appears to be ahead of the center of the storm.


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## sb2313

*Update today*

Here's an update posted today, seems like he will resurface shortly.
http://www.islandpacket.com/news/business/article104486941.html


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## dioxide45

sb2313 said:


> Here's an update posted today, seems like he will resurface shortly.
> http://www.islandpacket.com/news/business/article104486941.html



The below quote from the article would lead one to believe there was friction between Jim and the new GM.



> “I’ve got 22 years in with that company,” he said. “I don’t have any hard feelings toward Marriott whatsoever. I just think it’s a wonderful company. Unfortunately, they put people in place sometimes that you just don’t have the ability to get along with, and at some point in time you just got to, like Kenny Rogers said, ‘Know when to fold ‘em.’ ”
> 
> Read more here: http://www.islandpacket.com/news/business/article104486941.html#storylink=cpy


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## pedro47

Good luck Jim in your new business.


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## MabelP

Good luck Jim in your new venture.


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## rthib

*If you want to support him and a good cause*

Until he gets set up, he is doing a one day fundraising - Would be nice to see a good turnout - Also, would be a nice gesture from Marriott if they were to make a matching donation as a sign off good will to their owners.



In the meantime, the beloved bartender known for his frozen concoctions will make a one-day appearance — and serve anywhere from 1,500 to 2,000 drinks with the help of some fellow bartenders — from noon to 6 p.m. Oct. 9 at Captain Woody’s on Hilton Head Island for “Captain Woody’s Frozen Benefit.”

Lisenby said all proceeds will go to support K9s for Warriors, a nonprofit that provides service dogs to those in the military who battle post traumatic stress disorder, traumatic brain injury and military sexual trauma from their service, according to the charity’s website.

Read more here: http://www.islandpacket.com/news/business/article104486941.html#storylink=cpy


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## Ty1on

Any updates?


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## NTP66

Now that it's actually official, I figured it was worth posting an update. Pool Bar Jim is back, and is located at the Sea Crest Beach Bar (10 North Forest Beach Drive, in between the two pools, overlooking the beach), which is right across the street from Coligny Plaza. Here's a visual indicator, just for fun:


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## Fasttr

I see him....its like a Where's Waldo picture...only with PBJ!!!  ;-)

Good for him...lets all tip one back for PBJ's success at his new location.


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## MOXJO7282

That is probably a better spot for his business as that is a huge hub of activity more so than GO which had limited accessibility.  We'll be sure to pay him a visit in August.


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## jme

That area on the beach in front of the old Holiday Inn (Tiki Hut) and "Coligny Beach Park" is always buzzing, and on holiday weekends it's totally insane.
It will be far more crowded now that Jim is there, but that's a good thing for him, so I'm happy. He's a good friend and a great guy, so maybe the fiasco at GO will be behind him, and he'll get a new wind in his sails, and hopefully stay around for a few more years. I'm sure we'll hike down from GO to see him regularly---it's not that far, maybe a 15-20 minute walk. See you soon, buddy......


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## Janette

Amazing! We bought our first timeshare at Sea Crest Surf and Racquet in 1983. We sat on that spot from sun up to sun down for years. We still have it for trading purposes. The pool by the ocean belongs to the timeshare that is across Forest Beach. Great spot for Jim.


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## PHLarry

Nice article in the Island Packet on Jim's new location; www.islandpacket.com/news/business/article138383108.html


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## jme

Thursday April 6, 2017.
Walked up the beach 2 days ago around 10:30am to see Jim and his new place at Sea Crest, and Jim was there with a helper, no customers yet, prepping to open. He recognized us immediately and was happy to see 2 of his long-time "regulars".   He looked great and was very positive about the new endeavor there. The bar area was really nice, and huge, far better than what Marriott ever provided for him. (That alone sort of ticked me off.) He deserved better, given his many years of service. He showed us with hand gestures how Sea Crest planned to expand his area even further, adding some space going outward toward the ocean, adding stools & a solid, long bar-top across the expanse, with a nice ocean view. Currently the long bar & nice seating areas (bar stools and tables) go perpendicular to the ocean, facing the pool. Anyway, it's still great, and well-deserved for one of the island's superstars.

He said that 50% of his business on a typical busy day was from his old clientele at Grande Ocean, who had walked up the beach to see him and get their favorite "Pool Bar Jim" drink. The only comment Jim made regarding the former situation was that, "they [Marriott] did it to themselves". And how!!!
But he was smiling when he said it, and given that he was admittedly close to retiring at that time anyway, he seemed beyond it now, and visibly positive going forward. We talked about his son Daniel and his plans to go back to UGA to pursue a "specialty degree" (probably akin to a Masters Degree), and we basically "talked kids" for a few minutes. We had met his son with Jim and his wife 2 days prior at Plantation Cafe for breakfast, and had a quick 2-3 minute conversation, when Jim invited us up to Sea Crest to see the place and talk more.

As I said, Jim looked great. Told him so and he replied that he felt more relaxed lately, having been away from the long grueling hours at Grande Ocean, where he really never had time to "enjoy the moment" behind the bar. GO's bar was always crowded, super-busy, and quite cramped due to the inadequate design, but he kept his head down and never stopped moving. There always seemed to be a frenetic pace during his work day. He gave every effort to interact and smile and maybe share a quick story or two along the way, but mostly he was just trying not to get behind on the orders. He now looked fresh, and frankly, 5 years younger.  We'll go back to visit him when we return in early June. Anyone visiting Grande Ocean who knew him or wants to meet him, please make the effort at least once and walk the 20 minutes northward and visit Jim. He will definitely appreciate it.  And if you ever knew him before, you'll notice he still has that great smile and twinkle in his eye.


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## NTP66

jme said:


> He said that 50% of his business on a typical busy day was from his old clientele at Grande Ocean, who had walked up the beach to see him and get their favorite "Pool Bar Jim" drink.


This doesn't surprise me at all. We plan on making the walk ourselves in July.


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## jont

I look forward to stopping by jim's new and improved location and getting a white russian or two. Marty, can i count on you to join me?


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## jme

jont said:


> I look forward to stopping by jim's new and improved location and getting a white russian or two. Marty, can i count on you to join me?



You got it, and I'll treat.  Couldn't think of anything I'd rather do than have a great drink or three with you guys! 
Miss you both, come on down.


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## WBP

Here's news of an interesting addition to PoolBar Jim's new place:

http://www.hhbackyard.com/poolbarjims.html


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## Old Hickory

PHLarry said:


> Nice article in the Island Packet on Jim's new location; www.islandpacket.com/news/business/article138383108.html



Good news because I was in need of a new boat drink for 2017.    Jim taught me how he makes the perfect Pina Colada and Painkiller.   Yummmmay!


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## pedro47

Thanks for sharing this information. How far is Sea Crest from GO?


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## WBP

pedro47 said:


> Thanks for sharing this information. How far is Sea Crest from GO?



You are welcome.The BackYard restaurant has a great reputation, on island.

I'd estimate Grande Ocean to SeaCrest as a 10 minute walk on the beach. By bicycle along North Forest Beach Drive to Coligny Circle, 5 minutes. I haven't yet figured out how to get to PoolBar Jim's from the street side of the Sea Crest, as the gates around the pool of the Sea Crest require an access code.


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