# Hilton Head Island's Dirty Little Secret



## coolgunz

*Hilton Head Island's Dirty Little Secret*​

While multi-millionaires sleep late; walk the beach; play a round of golf; or cruise on their extravagant yachts -- there's a dirty little secret known mostly to residents of this beautiful South Carolina coastal resort.  There's timeshare fraud taking place on a daily basis, as unsuspecting consumers from far away states are fleeced for thousands of dollars.

There are a variety of ways timeshare companies lure intended victims to Hilton Head Island.  The primary inducement is the fact that Hilton Head Island is frequently rated among the top vacation destinations in the United States.  Who wouldn't want to visit the renowned Hilton Head Island?

This initial temptation is soon followed by other enticements including cash back; money for dining; cruises; or other adventures.  All of these make a 90 minute presentation sound like a very minimal price to pay for such a wonderful vacation at this luxurious and idyllic resort island community.

Yet most consumers are unaware of the shady practices of some of the timeshare peddlers at Hilton Head.  In fact, some of the timeshare companies engage in outright fraud and nothing is done about it.  Specifically, the South Carolina Real Estate Commission has investigated Coral Resorts (owner and operator of several HHI timeshare resorts) for multiple, continuous, and flagrant violations.  But they have found "no violations" or wrong doing.  So, the scams continue despite all the "locals" knowing the underlying truth: Hilton Head Island timeshare companies are intentionally defrauding consumers of millions of dollars a year.

The timeshare industry seems to have a business model which depends largely upon two factors:

1)  Some consumers will default on their obligations.  This may be due to financial circumstances, which prevent them from meeting their payments; or from default due to disgust with the fraudulent sales activities, which leaves consumers with far less than they agreed to or bargained for in their contracts.

The "bait and switch" tactics cause some consumers to make what might otherwise be considered a smart business move.  In the event a business project is determined to be much less than expected (in terms of expected "return on investment"), then it's typical to not follow good money after bad.  In other words, they stop investing in their project.

Yet in the timeshare world, this only benefits the timeshare merchants, as they keep all monies already paid; pursue legal action to recover the remainder; and the property reverts to them.  The consumer is left empty-handed, and the timeshare companies have yet more product to traffic to unsuspecting consumers (i.e. suckers).

2)  The timeshare companies have "deep pockets".  They can easily defend themselves against any one consumer.

For example, while Coral Resorts claims to be a member of the Hilton Head Island Chamber of Commerce, they have no acccreditation with the Better Business Bureau, and on a scale of A+ to F, their rating is F.

As of this writing they have 173 complaints over the past three years and 39 complaints in the past 12 months.  The BBB describes one of these complaints as serious, with 14 complaints not being resolved, and another 9 complaints resulting in a failure by Coral Resorts to respond in any manner whatsoever.  The BBB did say that 132 cases had been resolved with BBB assistance.

What's the implication?  Well, my math seems to suggest that there's a 76% chance of resolution for those who contact the Better Business Bureau.  I guess that's not bad, but it seems far too short of the real solution.

I think it's time to assist ALL consumers who've been defrauded, not just those few who have reached out to the Better Business Bureau.  Further, it's necessary to prevent similar fraudulent practices going forward.  This would seem to suggest a class action lawsuit involving thousands of property owners, with recovery of all monies lost and punitive damages as well.  Or perhaps it's too late for that and a full-blown criminal investigation is in order.

All of this comes as such a great disappointment to me personally, and I feel victimized by the entire Hilton Head Island community, as well as Beaufort County and the State of South Carolina.  My timeshare purchase at Coral Resorts' Island Links came in late 2010, many years after the South Carolina legal system became aware of possible criminal activites in the HHI timeshare industry.  The failure of the legal system to protect consumers by issuing injunctions, against the likes of Coral Resorts, to cease and desist their predatory behavior has me perplexed to say the least.

I have always had great respect for the community of Hilton Head Island and I've held them in high regard.  It has been difficult for me to realize that I've been victimized, and that the community of Hilton Head Island allowed it to happen.  It's much the same as someone being mugged, robbed, or raped in the presence of other citizens, who calmly walk away or turn their backs while the crime is being committed.

Nobody wants to get involved.  They say, "It's not my business."  But what they really fear if they speak out or help the victim is retribution of some kind from the criminals.  In this way criminals are allowed to take over neighborhoods or cities.  In certain extreme cases, entire societies can be corrupted by organized crime behavior.

Is that what's going on at Hilton Head?  Obviously, the latter example would be an exaggeration, but the former is entirely possible.  Are people at HHI afraid of the Big Bad Wolf?

How can the community of Hilton Head Island and the State of South Carolina do absolutely nothing about the fraud being perpetrated against consumers?  Is it necessary for SLED [South Carolina Law Enforcement Division] to come in and shut down Coral Resorts?  Is it necessary to take away all the personnel in handcuffs, while loading trucks with files, computers, and other evidence?

The existence of fraud is overwhelming and undeniable.  Yet the prospect of a class action law suit now seems almost insignificant.  Maybe it's too little -- too late.  Things have probably progressed to the point that the FBI must get involved and the perpetrators sentenced to many years in federal prison.  This might well turn out to be the largest real estate fraud in the history of South Carolina.

It's all such a shame really, as I still find it hard to believe that Hilton Head Island, my beloved vacation destination, has participated in a crime against me and my family - or - at the very least stood by while we were being robbed.  It feels as though I've been betrayed by a best friend.  If I could ask some questions of the residents and businesses of Hilton Head they might sound something this:

Why?  Why have you allowed me to be robbed after all these years of friendship?  Hasn't it been enough for me and my family to come and spend our time and money in your community?  Is it necessary or permissible to knowingly allow thieves to rob us while you stand by idle and unconcerned?  Is it really enough to prevent petty crimes, while allowing wholesale, white-collar crime to take place in the heart of the community?

Shame on you my friend!  Your betrayal cuts at my heart like a dagger.  I'm still in disbelief.  Shock.  It's truly surreal.

I've tried to deny that my good old friend would betray me in this manner.  Yet the truth is inescapable.  I'm not sure if I want to say good-bye just yet to my good, old friend.  But I do want the world to know what's really going on at Hilton Head Island.  Contrary to the businesses and residents of the area, I feel an obligation to let everyone know about Hilton Head Island's dirty little secret.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Is this your article?  Was it in a newspaper?


----------



## DebBrown

Is this supposed to shock us?  LOL!  I think most TUGgers are familiar with timeshare scams.   

I was hoping you were going to share some light on what happened to the Calverts back in 2008.

Deb


----------



## rickandcindy23

Deb, I was thinking a person could put in any number of cities and the article would make sense.  I would bet people who love Breckenridge, Orlando, Lake Tahoe, San Clemente, Anaheim, Key West, Marco Island, Branson, San Antonio, etc., could all say the same thing.  

Timeshare is a dirty business, and it's sad to see your favorite timeshare being sold on eBay for pennies.  It just is.  I buy the seasons I couldn't afford way back when, like ski season in Breck/ Frisco, and it suits me fine.


----------



## Tia

*Could apply nearly anywhere....*

Good piece, well written.


----------



## tombo

It is terrible how they lie and trick people. They should all be sued out of existence for misrepresenting what they sell and then justifying it by saying all that matters is what is in the contract you signed. The rule says that if a timeshare salesman's lips are moving they are probably lying.

If you are past the recission period you are stuck. It is a hard life lesson, and an expensive one. You signed the contract and you own itno matter what. You aren't alone.They rip people off every day.

Welcome to TUG. If you read and ask questions here you can learn how to get the best use out of what you purchased. After you read up you might want to purchase another week or 2 RESALE for a few dollars. You have already learned the number one rule of Timesharing, and that is NEVER BUY A TIMESHARE RETAIL.


----------



## e.bram

Like Amway and other MLMs. Still in business.

PT Barnum was right, including the OP.(read the contract)


----------



## ssb

*Coral sands rip off*



coolgunz said:


> *Hilton Head Island's Dirty Little Secret*​While multi-millionaires sleep late; walk the beach; play a round of golf; or cruise on their extravagant yachts -- there's a dirty little secret known mostly to residents of this beautiful South Carolina coastal resort.  There's timeshare fraud taking place on a daily basis, as unsuspecting consumers from far away states are fleeced for thousands of dollars.
> 
> There are a variety of ways timeshare companies lure intended victims to Hilton Head Island.  The primary inducement is the fact that Hilton Head Island is frequently rated among the top vacation destinations in the United States.  Who wouldn't want to visit the renowned Hilton Head Island?
> 
> This initial temptation is soon followed by other enticements including cash back; money for dining; cruises; or other adventures.  All of these make a 90 minute presentation sound like a very minimal price to pay for such a wonderful vacation at this luxurious and idyllic resort island community.
> 
> Yet most consumers are unaware of the shady practices of some of the timeshare peddlers at Hilton Head.  In fact, some of the timeshare companies engage in outright fraud and nothing is done about it.  Specifically, the South Carolina Real Estate Commission has investigated Coral Resorts (owner and operator of several HHI timeshare resorts) for multiple, continuous, and flagrant violations.  But they have found "no violations" or wrong doing.  So, the scams continue despite all the "locals" knowing the underlying truth: Hilton Head Island timeshare companies are intentionally defrauding consumers of millions of dollars a year.
> 
> The timeshare industry seems to have a business model which depends largely upon two factors:
> 
> 1)  Some consumers will default on their obligations.  This may be due to financial circumstances, which prevent them from meeting their payments; or from default due to disgust with the fraudulent sales activities, which leaves consumers with far less than they agreed to or bargained for in their contracts.
> 
> The "bait and switch" tactics cause some consumers to make what might otherwise be considered a smart business move.  In the event a business project is determined to be much less than expected (in terms of expected "return on investment"), then it's typical to not follow good money after bad.  In other words, they stop investing in their project.
> 
> Yet in the timeshare world, this only benefits the timeshare merchants, as they keep all monies already paid; pursue legal action to recover the remainder; and the property reverts to them.  The consumer is left empty-handed, and the timeshare companies have yet more product to traffic to unsuspecting consumers (i.e. suckers).
> 
> 2)  The timeshare companies have "deep pockets".  They can easily defend themselves against any one consumer.
> 
> For example, while Coral Resorts claims to be a member of the Hilton Head Island Chamber of Commerce, they have no acccreditation with the Better Business Bureau, and on a scale of A+ to F, their rating is F.
> 
> As of this writing they have 173 complaints over the past three years and 39 complaints in the past 12 months.  The BBB describes one of these complaints as serious, with 14 complaints not being resolved, and another 9 complaints resulting in a failure by Coral Resorts to respond in any manner whatsoever.  The BBB did say that 132 cases had been resolved with BBB assistance.
> 
> What's the implication?  Well, my math seems to suggest that there's a 76% chance of resolution for those who contact the Better Business Bureau.  I guess that's not bad, but it seems far too short of the real solution.
> 
> I think it's time to assist ALL consumers who've been defrauded, not just those few who have reached out to the Better Business Bureau.  Further, it's necessary to prevent similar fraudulent practices going forward.  This would seem to suggest a class action lawsuit involving thousands of property owners, with recovery of all monies lost and punitive damages as well.  Or perhaps it's too late for that and a full-blown criminal investigation is in order.
> 
> All of this comes as such a great disappointment to me personally, and I feel victimized by the entire Hilton Head Island community, as well as Beaufort County and the State of South Carolina.  My timeshare purchase at Coral Resorts' Island Links came in late 2010, many years after the South Carolina legal system became aware of possible criminal activites in the HHI timeshare industry.  The failure of the legal system to protect consumers by issuing injunctions, against the likes of Coral Resorts, to cease and desist their predatory behavior has me perplexed to say the least.
> 
> I have always had great respect for the community of Hilton Head Island and I've held them in high regard.  It has been difficult for me to realize that I've been victimized, and that the community of Hilton Head Island allowed it to happen.  It's much the same as someone being mugged, robbed, or raped in the presence of other citizens, who calmly walk away or turn their backs while the crime is being committed.
> 
> Nobody wants to get involved.  They say, "It's not my business."  But what they really fear if they speak out or help the victim is retribution of some kind from the criminals.  In this way criminals are allowed to take over neighborhoods or cities.  In certain extreme cases, entire societies can be corrupted by organized crime behavior.
> 
> Is that what's going on at Hilton Head?  Obviously, the latter example would be an exaggeration, but the former is entirely possible.  Are people at HHI afraid of the Big Bad Wolf?
> 
> How can the community of Hilton Head Island and the State of South Carolina do absolutely nothing about the fraud being perpetrated against consumers?  Is it necessary for SLED [South Carolina Law Enforcement Division] to come in and shut down Coral Resorts?  Is it necessary to take away all the personnel in handcuffs, while loading trucks with files, computers, and other evidence?
> 
> The existence of fraud is overwhelming and undeniable.  Yet the prospect of a class action law suit now seems almost insignificant.  Maybe it's too little -- too late.  Things have probably progressed to the point that the FBI must get involved and the perpetrators sentenced to many years in federal prison.  This might well turn out to be the largest real estate fraud in the history of South Carolina.
> 
> It's all such a shame really, as I still find it hard to believe that Hilton Head Island, my beloved vacation destination, has participated in a crime against me and my family - or - at the very least stood by while we were being robbed.  It feels as though I've been betrayed by a best friend.  If I could ask some questions of the residents and businesses of Hilton Head they might sound something this:
> 
> Why?  Why have you allowed me to be robbed after all these years of friendship?  Hasn't it been enough for me and my family to come and spend our time and money in your community?  Is it necessary or permissible to knowingly allow thieves to rob us while you stand by idle and unconcerned?  Is it really enough to prevent petty crimes, while allowing wholesale, white-collar crime to take place in the heart of the community?
> 
> Shame on you my friend!  Your betrayal cuts at my heart like a dagger.  I'm still in disbelief.  Shock.  It's truly surreal.
> 
> I've tried to deny that my good old friend would betray me in this manner.  Yet the truth is inescapable.  I'm not sure if I want to say good-bye just yet to my good, old friend.  But I do want the world to know what's really going on at Hilton Head Island.  Contrary to the businesses and residents of the area, I feel an obligation to let everyone know about Hilton Head Island's dirty little secret.



I too was scammed by these criminals.  Why isn't there a class action law suit? What can we do to start this?  I would love to see Lori Lucus and the rest of them at Coral Sands in jail for their part in robbing people.


----------



## siesta

DebBrown said:


> I was hoping you were going to share some light on what happened to the Calverts back in 2008.
> 
> Deb


 they were killed by their business partner who they confronted about stealing/embezzling millions of dollars , and days later he killed himself.

The only real questions that remain are where he buried the bodies, and if he had any assistance. Authorities are confident they were buried and not dumped at sea due to the dirt they found in his suv where the third row seating had been removed as well as evidence found in the home.

Some question if he in fact was killed too, but he was found dead in a bathroom with the door locked behind him and a cheap steak knife along side himself, as well as blood splatter everywhere in that bathroom but not a trace of it outside the bathroom as well as no other finger/foot prints.  With the amount of blood and nature of the splatter, it would be very likely that if it were foul play there would be traces of it outside the bathroom as the killer left, or evidence inside the bathroom that someone else had been in there.


----------



## sjuhawk_jd

Dear OP,

In your well-written article, you say that "you respect people of Hilton Head" and then later you write "shame on you for letting these scams happen."

These developers create jobs in the city and state, so why should the citizens of HH be bothered with policing the scams, dirtbags, etc engaged in white collar unethical business practices. Next you will say that "shame on people of Las Vegas and Nevada" since people loose money and get diseases due to the fact that Gambling and Prostitution is being allowed in Nevada (and many other states now). 

Instead of spending so much time in writing these articles trying to put the blame on people of HH, if you had spent 10% of that time in doing your HW before buying, then you would be singing the praises of HH. Comparing timeshare scams to the crime of "rape" is nonsense also in my opinion. 

I guess shame on all of us in USA for letting the Mortgage industry scam to go on. Why didn't we intervene when we saw a person making $50K/year move into a $600K house?


----------



## Carol C

Why taint Hilton Head in your article's title? You could insert any resort destination in the world and you'd be describing the same scenario. Spain, Scotland, Mexico, the list goes on and on. Many of us on TUG overpaid to resort developers at one time...live and learn, and move on.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Tried & True Biz. Model For Selling Items People Don't Need But Can Be Made To Want.*




coolgunz said:


> The timeshare industry seems to have a business model which depends largely upon two factors:
> 
> 1)  Some consumers will default on their obligations.  This may be due to financial circumstances, which prevent them from meeting their payments; or from default due to disgust with the fraudulent sales activities, which leaves consumers with far less than they agreed to or bargained for in their contracts.
> 
> The "bait and switch" tactics cause some consumers to make what might otherwise be considered a smart business move.  In the event a business project is determined to be much less than expected (in terms of expected "return on investment"), then it's typical to not follow good money after bad.  In other words, they stop investing in their project.
> 
> Yet in the timeshare world, this only benefits the timeshare merchants, as they keep all monies already paid; pursue legal action to recover the remainder; and the property reverts to them.  The consumer is left empty-handed, and the timeshare companies have yet more product to traffic to unsuspecting consumers (i.e. suckers).
> 
> 2)  The timeshare companies have "deep pockets".  They can easily defend themselves against any one consumer.
> 
> For example, while Coral Resorts claims to be a member of the Hilton Head Island Chamber of Commerce, they have no acccreditation with the Better Business Bureau, and on a scale of A+ to F, their rating is F.
> 
> As of this writing they have 173 complaints over the past three years and 39 complaints in the past 12 months.  The BBB describes one of these complaints as serious, with 14 complaints not being resolved, and another 9 complaints resulting in a failure by Coral Resorts to respond in any manner whatsoever.  The BBB did say that 132 cases had been resolved with BBB assistance.
> 
> What's the implication?  Well, my math seems to suggest that there's a 76% chance of resolution for those who contact the Better Business Bureau.  I guess that's not bad, but it seems far too short of the real solution.


Shux, it's not just Hilton Head. 

That's pretty much the way they do it at Branson MO & Williamsburg VA & Massanutten VA & Orlando-Kissimmee FL & Las Vegas NV, etc. 

The real problem is a biz. model dependent on selling overpriced items to the uninformed via high-pressure razzle-dazzle & ballyhoo. 

What's needed is an all-new biz. model patterned after Wal-Mart for newly deeded timeshares & based on CarMax for resales. 

Don't hold your breath while waiting for somebody to give that a try. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## esk444

Carol C said:


> Why taint Hilton Head in your article's title? You could insert any resort destination in the world and you'd be describing the same scenario. Spain, Scotland, Mexico, the list goes on and on. Many of us on TUG overpaid to resort developers at one time...live and learn, and move on.



The timeshare developers on HHI actually aren't that bad compared to most places.  Though I'd admit that the Coral Resorts are probably the worst.


----------



## Rob&Carol Q

Fraud is such a harsh, and easily overused, word...

I gotta ask...what fraud?

Did they present you with a Contract?  Did the Contract state a Price?  Did the Contract state what you are Purchasing?  Did you sign the Contract?  

I already know the answers to those questions...yes.

Did you not rescind the purchase as specified in the Contract that you Signed?  I already know the answer to that one as well based on the emotion and length of your discourse.

Sorry dude...nothing that happened to you was illegal.  You may feel betrayed or "scammed" even but if you look at it dispassionately you will see that you failed to exercise due diligence.  Seriously, have you ever bought a car based on a 2-3 presentation?  Did you do some research before signing on the bottom line?  Did you have some idea of what you wanted BEFORE you entered the showroom?  Did you access Al Gore's invention to do some additional research?  I also know the answers to those questions...of course you did.  So I ask you...what happened to you that you let your guard down?

Don't kick yourself too much...I bought Retail once upon a time.  Though I never felt scammed, I just thought I bought something I couldn't afford.  Over time I came to discover that I really, really messed up financially but what was done, was done.  That's the point you need to reach as well.  Now learn to use your TS to it's best advantage...believe it or not, there is more to the world than just Hilton Head.

Now I'm at the point that my Bride and I can contemplate using all these wonderful resorts via rental and/or additional purchases.  It took a long time to get here but I am "FINALLY" a reasonably savvy consumer in this TS arena (Thanks y'all) 

============
Edit:
Sorry...didn't check the date to see that this is just a rant from back on 4 July...the poster is mildly peeved at Coral Reefs to put it gently...all of his posts are on that subject.  SSB did a one post resurrection of a dead thread.  Probably the same guy.


----------



## Plucky

I think the article is too long and a bit whiny. Without details, it's not very effective. The reader is left wondering, what exactly happened here?
I believe this is a case of buyer beware and has little to do with Hilton Head Island as a community. These sales pitches are done all over the world.

We've attended three pitches with Coral resorts and never purchased.
Even after they brought out the "real" price list book and lowered the cost by almost half. We set our watches for 90 minutes, tour the resort and listen to the pitch. Then we ask for our free dinner certificates/golf or whatever they're offering and leave. I would dare say, Coral Resorts don't like us much.

You see, I would never enter into a sales agreement that involved thousands of dollars without doing my research first. TUG has been online for many years. All it took was a google search of "Coral resorts-worth the money?" to come up with a million hits of advice, experiences, reviews.
I did this and decided timeshare ownership for us, at this time anyway, was not a good fit. Instead, we rent weeks from TUG, Skyauction and VRBO. Most often, we stay for maintenance fees.

Yes, this is a case of buyer beware. Hilton Head Island is not the bad guy.


----------



## bogey21

It has been a number of years since we owned any Weeks on HHI but when we decided to sell we found it pretty easy *using local RE brokers and the local newspaper*.  We managed to sell 5 Weeks this way:  Raqust Club (2); Swallowtail; Heritage Club; and Harbour Club.  My Monarch was sold using Marriott Sales (discontinued program).  We had many great vacations on HHI and when we sold the total sales proceeds exceeded our cost by a decent amount.

George


----------



## Plucky

We also sold our week back to the developer. Husband purchased it in 1985 for $8,000 (Port O Call).  Had twenty years of free golf and great vacations, then sold it back to them for $7,500. We sold because maintenance kept going up every year and we were getting the same week through Skyauction for $200.
We are now having some seller remorse as the Skyauction weeks are now far and few between for Port O Call and rarely go for less than $700 a week.


----------



## coolgunz

*"White Collar Business Practices" Are a Crime*



sjuhawk_jd said:


> Dear OP,
> 
> In your well-written article, you say that "you respect people of Hilton Head" and then later you write "shame on you for letting these scams happen."
> 
> These developers create jobs in the city and state, so why should the citizens of HH be bothered with policing the scams, dirtbags, etc engaged in white collar unethical business practices. Next you will say that "shame on people of Las Vegas and Nevada" since people loose money and get diseases due to the fact that Gambling and Prostitution is being allowed in Nevada (and many other states now).
> 
> Instead of spending so much time in writing these articles trying to put the blame on people of HH, if you had spent 10% of that time in doing your HW before buying, then you would be singing the praises of HH. Comparing timeshare scams to the crime of "rape" is nonsense also in my opinion.
> 
> I guess shame on all of us in USA for letting the Mortgage industry scam to go on. Why didn't we intervene when we saw a person making $50K/year move into a $600K house?



Oh, I see... just as long as South Carolina gets revenue from tourists... then there's no moral responsibility to enforce the law.

Right?

It doesn't matter that fraud is a felony.

Right?

Okay.

How about letting tourists know that BEFORE they come to South Carolina to spend their money!


----------



## coolgunz

*Issue Will Be Resolved In Court*



Rob&Carol Q said:


> Fraud is such a harsh, and easily overused, word...
> 
> I gotta ask...what fraud?
> 
> Did they present you with a Contract?  Did the Contract state a Price?  Did the Contract state what you are Purchasing?  Did you sign the Contract?
> 
> I already know the answers to those questions...yes.
> 
> Did you not rescind the purchase as specified in the Contract that you Signed?  I already know the answer to that one as well based on the emotion and length of your discourse.
> 
> Sorry dude...nothing that happened to you was illegal.  You may feel betrayed or "scammed" even but if you look at it dispassionately you will see that you failed to exercise due diligence.  Seriously, have you ever bought a car based on a 2-3 presentation?  Did you do some research before signing on the bottom line?  Did you have some idea of what you wanted BEFORE you entered the showroom?  Did you access Al Gore's invention to do some additional research?  I also know the answers to those questions...of course you did.  So I ask you...what happened to you that you let your guard down?
> 
> Don't kick yourself too much...I bought Retail once upon a time.  Though I never felt scammed, I just thought I bought something I couldn't afford.  Over time I came to discover that I really, really messed up financially but what was done, was done.  That's the point you need to reach as well.  Now learn to use your TS to it's best advantage...believe it or not, there is more to the world than just Hilton Head.
> 
> Now I'm at the point that my Bride and I can contemplate using all these wonderful resorts via rental and/or additional purchases.  It took a long time to get here but I am "FINALLY" a reasonably savvy consumer in this TS arena (Thanks y'all)
> 
> ============
> Edit:
> Sorry...didn't check the date to see that this is just a rant from back on 4 July...the poster is mildly peeved at Coral Reefs to put it gently...all of his posts are on that subject.  SSB did a one post resurrection of a dead thread.  Probably the same guy.



[Edited - *coolgunz* - When you post on TUG, people may or may not agree with you, and may choose to respond negatively.  As long as they don't violate the TUG posting rules - they may do that.  This post did not violate the TUG posting rules, but your response did. People have a right to post their opinions - if you don't want responses to your post - don't post. 

Also - did you write post #1, or did you copy it from another source?  Copying someone else's material is a copyright violation.  In the future, please just provide a link to the article.  -DeniseM Moderator]


----------



## cmg47

I can relate. Trying to get my money back from Timeshare resale company om Hilton Head .  Any suggestions?


----------



## Rob&Carol Q

again with the first post resurrection of an old thread...

On the off chance that you are legit...how long ago did you purchase this TS?  Which TS do you own?  If you are still within the window to rescind the purchase, do so immediately!  Do not pass go, do not collect $200...

If you are outside the window...dang, sorry.  There is very little you can do aside from reading the various posting on this site for knowledge...


----------



## Ridewithme38

The problem with saying "Too bad, you should have read the legal documents" is that the doc's that properly express what you are buying with a TS are hundreds of pages long....I would love to find ONE PERSON who read the entire  "Declaration of Covenants and Restrictions"

This is why it is fraud when the timeshare sellers straight out lie to you...don't get me wrong, i didn't buy retail and i researched like crazy before and bought(i don't think i'll ever stop researching)....But when someone is asking you to sign a contracted based on lies....thats fraud


----------



## SueDonJ

Ridewithme38 said:


> The problem with saying "Too bad, you should have read the legal documents" is that the doc's that properly express what you are buying with a TS are hundreds of pages long....I would love to find ONE PERSON who read the entire  "Declaration of Covenants and Restrictions"
> 
> This is why it is fraud when the timeshare sellers straight out lie to you...don't get me wrong, i didn't buy retail and i researched like crazy before and bought(i don't think i'll ever stop researching)....*But when someone is asking you to sign a contracted based on lies....thats fraud*



Well, not according to any legal opinion that's been tested and reached in a court system.  If a lawyer had ever been able to make that case and win a victory for his client, don't you think that a TUGger would have found it and reported it here?  There are some pretty timeshare-savvy legal minds at work here - if they haven't been able to find a court case that would solve the old "the salesman lied, I need a way out!" problem that seems to crop up every other day, then I'd guess one just doesn't exist.  Actually, I've never even seen a report on TUG of an attorney who would be willing to take such a case through the court system.

And yes, Ride, some of us did read the pertinent documents prior to signing on the dotted line.  As surprised as you are by those who might have done so, I'm that surprised by how many didn't!


----------



## Ridewithme38

SueDonJ said:


> And yes, Ride, some of us did read the pertinent documents prior to signing on the dotted line.  As surprised as you are by those who might have done so, I'm that surprised by how many didn't!



You read all 400+ Pages of the Declaration of Covenants and Restrictions, the Contract, the Deed, the Association Documents? I've heard in some cases this equals up to over 1,000 pages of documents, all before signing anything?  How long did it take to read all that? Weeks?


----------



## Ridewithme38

SueDonJ said:


> Well, not according to any legal opinion that's been tested and reached in a court system.  If a lawyer had ever been able to make that case and win a victory for his client, don't you think that a TUGger would have found it and reported it here?  There are some pretty timeshare-savvy legal minds at work here - if they haven't been able to find a court case that would solve the old "the salesman lied, I need a way out!" problem that seems to crop up every other day, then I'd guess one just doesn't exist.  Actually, I've never even seen a report on TUG of an attorney who would be willing to take such a case through the court system.



Fraud is a VERY had case to prove, in the case of a TS salesman, its his word against yours and even if your word wins, you have to prove he was aware it was a lie....

Now, this doesn't mean its NOT fraud, it just means that its very difficult to prove in court


----------



## SueDonJ

Ridewithme38 said:


> You read all 400+ Pages of the Declaration of Covenants and Restrictions the Contract, the Deed, the Association Documents? all before signing anything?  How long did it take to read all that? Weeks?



No, I read the sections in the Contract for Purchase that pertain to all the "Seller represents ..." items, and right there front and center was the statement that said any spoken assertions by the salesperson were legally invalid.  That's a gigantic red flag that they couldn't make any more obvious!  So from there I went looking for the written rescission terms, to make sure I'd have a certain number of days to look over all the docs before the decision became final.  Then we signed and over those next days I looked over the main points relating to everything our salesperson had said.  In the years since, I've looked at the docs many times for the finely-tuned details, mostly when TUG questions send me looking for an answer.

I worked for a few years in a law office that handled real estate items on a regular basis so I did have some idea of what the contracts should look like.  Plus I'd been reading DVC-related stuff on the disboards for years and had recently found TUG.  But it still surprises me that folks buy timeshares without at least a cursory review of the Purchase Contract especially where they are marketed as "deeded real estate."  Would these same folks buy a home without reviewing the docs?  Or without benefit of a lawyer's advice?


----------



## SueDonJ

Ridewithme38 said:


> Fraud is a VERY had case to prove, in the case of a TS salesman, its his word against yours and even if your word wins, you have to prove he was aware it was a lie....
> 
> Now, this doesn't mean its NOT fraud, it just means that its very difficult to prove in court



Fraud is easy enough to prove if your lawyer is competent and you have valid documentation.

Claims of timeshare fraud based on what a salesperson says are difficult to prove, legally nonexistent actually, because of that one representation - what a salesperson or other seller rep says is legally invalid, period.  The written word trumps all.  Buyer Beware.


----------



## CapriciousC

While I agree that the state of South Carolina and Beaufort County and other legal entities have a responsibility to police the practices of timeshare selling companies that operate in their jurisdiction, crying "shame on you" to the residents of HHI is stretching the point, IMO.  I live near Hilton Head, and have many, many friends who live on the Island.  These are decent, hardworking people, just like you.  Not everyone who lives there is a multimillionaire profiting from the oppressed masses, by any stretch of the imagination.  There are a lot of average, middle class working families living there.  I am sure that they would intervene and/or speak up if they saw a crime being committed in front of them, but fraud is one of those "hidden" crimes, isn't it?  How are they to witness fraud and report it, when they're just going about their daily lives?  To imply that they are somehow in collusion with the people who are perpretrating fraud in their communities is insulting.  By that logic, each and every one of us is somehow responsible for all of the illegal activity that takes place in our communities.  I can tell you, my neighborhood watch is not on the lookout for fraud.


----------



## tombo

The reason nobody can prove fraud is because timeshare companies will not let you record the sales presentation. If you were allowed to vidotape or audiotape these presentation you could fry them in court. All you have now is your word against theirs. 

The definition of legal fraud: "In criminal law, a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual; the related adjective is fraudulent. The specific legal definition varies by legal jurisdiction. Fraud is a crime, and also a civil law violation."  

I have NEVER been to a timeshare presentation where deception was not used to try and get me to buy. The figures are bogus showing you how your one time investment will pay for itself in a few years. The promises of what you can exchange for easilly each year are not true. The omission of facts like  annual MF increases, assessments, lack of reasale value, etc is omnipresent. 

To tell lies in order to make sales and get paid comissions is fraud. Proving it with no video or audio evidence is almost impossible because it comes down to your word against theirs. The fact that you can't prove it and win in court does not make it legal. Casey Anthony got off with no murder or manslaughter convictions. The fact that she got away with it does not mean she didn't break the law. The fact that they lie daily in order to sell timeshares without being found guilty of fraud does not mean they aren' t breaking the law either, it just means that they haven't been found guilty in a court of law.


----------



## Talent312

*Beware the Merger Doctrine -- Rights in a Real Estate Contract can be Lost under the Doctrine of Merger *-- http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Jun/1/127328.html

"In a typical real estate transaction, the parties enter into an agreement that contemplates a closing wherein the property is transferred by a deed. But what happens to the obligations stated in the purchase agreement after the deed is delivered?

"Under the 'merger doctrine' those obligations disappear and are no longer enforceable. For example: You negotiate an agreement to buy undeveloped land that is zoned agricultural. You include a condition that the seller rezone the land before the closing so you can build a small office building. The seller fails to rezone the land, but you close anyway. You will not be able to enforce the rezoning condition in the agreement.

"The doctrine says that all prior negotiations and agreements --including that purchase agreement -- are deemed 'merged' into the deed. IOW, the prior agreement disappears and the rights of the parties are governed solely by the deed. The contractual conditions cease to exist."
-----------------------
_Likewise a promise of no MF's could be lost at a closing when the deed accepted at closing makes no such promise and refers only to the general declarations and covenants._
------------------------
The application of this doctrine is, of course, subject to the law the state in which the property is located and counsel should be sought from an attorney licensed to practice in that state.


----------

