# Awful treatment of "guests" at Wyndham Resorts



## jenmsc

I have to share this story somewhere.  I am irate with Smuggler's Notch.  I do not know if this is a Wyndham-wide problem, but I have to share.

I found a timeshare rental online for Smuggler's Notch.  By renting from the owner, we save a lot of money over going through the resort.  I got the reservation information from the owner and called the resort to make sure that the listing was legit and that I understood everything before booking.  They explained to me that because I am a "guest", in order to use the full facility (all pools, camps, lake, activity room, etc.) I would need to purchase a Smuggs Pass for appx. $350 and that to purchase the pass I would have to sit through a 120 minute presentation.  This is a bit of a pain, but since its saving me quite a bit of money, I agree.  At least my husband and kids can enjoy the morning, and maybe we will end up buying here...

I make my reservation with the owner.  I call owner services. She checks that I am in the system (both my name and my husband's name appear on the reservation).  She confirms that I am all set, once again reminding me that I have to sit through the presentation.  Then I send my final payment to the person I am renting from.

They call me a day later to schedule the presentation and tell me that if I am coming in with my spouse, BOTH of us have to sit through this thing.  So I have to pay $160 to put my kids in camp and use my husband's valuable vacation time so we can listen to their pitch?  I complain, telling them that if this is their policy they really need to explain it to people up front before they book.  I asked them to check with a supervisor to see if they can make an exception since we they failed to communicate this policy in a timely way.  24 hrs later, I get a call.  Their answer: sorry, policy is policy.

They are forcing this issue.  They failed to communicate the policy in a timely way. Have they succeeded in trying to sell me a timeshare?  Heck no.  I was interested before, but not now.  My husband works 90 hrs a week in a high stress field, which means we have the money to actually buy a timeshare, but he can't devote time to it like this.  He told me point blank that we can't buy something like this if he can't delegate it all to me, because he just can't have one more more thing on his plate right now.

Way to go, Wyndham, alienating the very people who can afford to buy your product but don't have the time to put both spouses on the job!


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## natasha5687

I have heard that exchangers have to buy the Smuggs Pass but I have never heard that you were required to go to a presentation to get one. There was a recent post about the pass and the cost but no mention of required presentation.


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## jenmsc

I know!  I made the person at owner services check and double check and even seek an exception for us, and it made no difference!  They were firm about the policy.

This seems like a pretty significant impediment to their claim that family members can use your timeshare easily and that you can rent your timeshare to offset maintenance costs.


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## timeos2

The presentation is only to get a discounted pass. Pay full shot & no torture required.


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## Passepartout

I might be wrong, but even though the OP wrote that 'in order to buy the $350 pass she would have to endure the 2 hr. presentation' I took it to mean it was either/or- Pay $, or the pass was the 'gift' for attending. At least I hope this was the case. It still isn't right.

Just more of the Wyndham stranglehold on guests to force them through the gauntlet of the sales pressure cooker. Seems like their corporate mantra. Find something guests find necessary (parking, water/amusement park admission, greens fees) for enjoyment of a resort and make it mandatory for every guest, member or not, to endure a trip through the torture chamber.

These tactics are the whole reason I have nothing to do with them. Wyndham could have the greatest resorts in the world, but for me and my family, it just isn't worth the price.

Jim


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## ronparise

I send guests to Wyndham resorts all the time and they have always been treated exactly the same as me (an owner)

I would have expected the same thing at Smugglers Notch until saw your post.  Now I know, Thank you

I dug into the Wyndham and Sugglers Notch website a little deeper and here's what I found. 

*SmuggsPass*

_As a CLUB WYNDHAM owner reserving your Smugglers' home through the Wyndham reservation system using your own points, you will receive a complimentary, non-transferable SmuggsPass gaining you access to Smugglers’ programs and facilities as well as a number of discounts. See below for more details. Guests using your CLUB WYNDHAM points may access Smugglers' programs and facilities under the same terms and conditions as the general public. _--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So it turns out Sugglers Notch is different than the typical Wyndham property...


Obviously the owner you rented from should have known these details, but I can understand how they might not have. Smugglers Notch is new to us.


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## jenmsc

To be clear, I'm not an exchanger, I'm a renter.  My name is on the reservation as a guest. I did not use "points", I paid the owner cash.  I don't know if this makes a difference.


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## tschwa2

Smugglers notch is not in full wyndham mode yet although a few pushy Wyndham desk concierges may be.  You do not have to go to a presentation to buy the Smuggs pass.  It is $363 with tax.  Just decline the tour.  We paid for our Smuggs pass at the check in desk before they even sent us over to the Wyndham desk to get our keys.  At the Wyndham desk they asked if my spouse was vacationing with me (yes), then asked me to sign up for an update.  The woman took no for an answer and gave me her number if I changed my mind.  We never received another call asking about "updates", tours or anything else.  When housekeeping called as a follow up after we called about operating the washing machines, I was sure it was going to be Wyndham.  We didn't even have a message left on the machine.  We were left alone and I was shocked.  With most Wyndham's even if I say my spouse isn't traveling with me they usually call 2 or 3 times more to make sure there was no one else who might be qualified to enjoy a nice breakfast/lunch and take a brief survey.

My guess is that less than 15% or the people staying at SN when we were there 2 weeks ago were Wyndham owners or guest.  Most were owners or their guests, RCI exchangers, or direct rentals from the resort.


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## Rent_Share

What could they possibly have that would be worth an additional $ 350


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## jenmsc

The people at owner services have been 100% firm and clear about this policy.  I MUST pay the $350 AND attend the presentation WITH my husband because I am traveling with him.  If we don't BOTH attend, then we can't buy the pass at all.

Does anyone have a contact at Wyndham who might be able to give us a reconsideration?  I can't believe they would enforce a policy that is so counterproductive!


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## jenmsc

Rentshare: Everything on the property that's fun!  All you can use as a "guest" without that pass is the pool for the townhouse group you're in.  No kids camps, can't use the other 7 pools and watersides, rock wall, water trampoline, bounce houses, kids arcade. This is the only reason to go to Smuggs if you have little kids.


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## rrlongwell

jenmsc said:


> Rentshare: Everything on the property that's fun!  All you can use as a "guest" without that pass is the pool for the townhouse group you're in.  No kids camps, can't use the other 7 pools and watersides, rock wall, water trampoline, bounce houses, kids arcade. This is the only reason to go to Smuggs if you have little kids.



Interesting, just called the resort to ask what the fee was for a guest to use the amenities through Wyndham, they would not disclose the fee and transferred the call to sales.  The owner of the account can call Wyndham Owner Care and ask them to assist and/or verify  the information you are getting.  It does appear Sales has to give Wyndham guests permission to use the facilities for an Owner's guest.


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## jenmsc

"Guests using your CLUB WYNDHAM points may access Smugglers' programs and facilities under the same terms and conditions as the general public."

This is interesting.  The general public does not have to sit through any presentations.  The general public can just buy the pass.  The general public booking through the Smuggs site gets a 10% discount on their stay if they sit through a presentation, but they are no required to do so.

Something does not seem right to me...


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## timeos2

jenmsc said:


> The people at owner services have been 100% firm and clear about this policy.  I MUST pay the $350 AND attend the presentation WITH my husband because I am traveling with him.  If we don't BOTH attend, then we can't buy the pass at all.
> 
> Does anyone have a contact at Wyndham who might be able to give us a reconsideration?  I can't believe they would enforce a policy that is so counterproductive!



You don't need anyone to talk to.  As a renter you are there with the blessing & all the rights of the owner. They cannot require a tour or "presentation" of any owner. 

Tell them to shove it, buy your pass & enjoy. Don't fret over it & have a great time. They are using their typical bully tactics - don't take it! And don't tour. And NEVER, EVER, even consider buying from Wyndham. Even if you love the system it is a terrible purchase at retail - a great value if purchased (or taken over from another owner) resale. 

You are getting a taste if the second worst sales group in timeshares (after only the outrageous Wastegate) so toughen up & just enjoy the resort. Don't waste one minute of your or your husbands vacation with those clowns. You are under ZERO obligation to them.


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## SOS8260456

I would get on the phone with the person you rented from and have them call owner services if they booked it through Wyndham points.  If they didn't book it through points, but own the unit straight out there also should be a comparable department that they can call.

I know when when we rent we try to do whatever we can about any problems that come up that we know about.  From other posts on TUG, it sounds like that is the norm.  The main thing is if the renter doesn't know about it 1.  they can't do anything about it to try to fix it for you and 2. they really need to know about this problem for the future.

I can honestly see Wyndham having this sort of policy for fixed week owner's guests. From what I understood,in the past, Smuggs wasn't all that nice to renter's and then now you through Wyndham into the mix.....Does that make it right?  No way!  If this is their policy I would love to run this by a consumer protection attorney.   

I really hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction.


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## jenmsc

Time0s2: HOW do I tell them to shove it exactly?  (chuckle)

I would love to, but I have already pushed and shoved as far up as I can go in their bureaucracy.  If they refuse to sell me the pass at the desk, they refuse to sell me the pass. What can I do?  I'm not going there to sit in one pool all week...


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## tschwa2

The climbing wall, eurobungy, and swing are pay a la carte and you don't need a pass.  Bingo is available.  Camps are available just not 25-30% discount for regular camps.  No discount is given for specialty camps.  My children thought the camps were a 7 out of 10.  Fun but not spectacular.  My 11 year old would have preferred the high adventure camp but after paying for the pass I thought they should attend one with a discount.  The Vermont country fair was fun- no smuggs pass required.  

See if anyone from TUG is there with you and see if they have a few extra passes for an afternoon at Mountainside  or Notchville (if you have children under 4 or over 9) and an afternoon in the funzone and a round of mini golf.  As far as waterparks go they are more pools with a slide and or water feature not a waterpark.  Courtside pool is free w/o pass and an ok pool if you have children over 5 who can swim most of the pool is 4ft +.


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## SOS8260456

PS  I noticed in your first post you said that you might be interested in buying because you have the money to do so.  Even if you have the money, there are very little reasons to buy directly from the resort/developer.  You can find the same product on the resale market for much less.  If you ever mention this to a sales person, they will bully you and say that it is a lie.

If you are really interesting in purchasing your own timeshare, stick around and you will find loads of information here that you can help you make the right choices about if you should buy one at all and if so, the best system or place to buy for your family's needs.


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## timeos2

jenmsc said:


> Time0s2: HOW do I tell them to shove it exactly?  (chuckle)
> 
> I would love to, but I have already pushed and shoved as far up as I can go in their bureaucracy.  If they refuse to sell me the pass at the desk, they refuse to sell me the pass. What can I do?  I'm not going there to sit in one pool all week...



I don't believe the passes are sold only by the Wyndham weasels - deal directly with the resort management & bypass these buffoons. And do remember never buy from Wyndham directly.  If they manage to rope you into a presentation they are incredibly convincing so don't even give them the chance to convince you to waste your money on a purchase you can get for pennies. 

As to shoving it, well you seem to get it!


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## flexible

deleted by Flexible


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## rrlongwell

Wyndham Owner Care called the resort and they indicated that they were advised that in order to keep the amenities available for owners, they do now have a policy that attending a presentation is required, in addition to the fee to use the amenities.  Since this is a WAAM resort within the Wyndham system, I am assuming that this is a Wyndham test program and will be implemented system wide (subject to HOA approval) if it is successful.

Regarding the quote:  "Guests using your CLUB WYNDHAM points may access Smugglers' programs and facilities under the same terms and conditions as the general public."

I will defer to the postings of others on a number of different threads on how trustworthy Wyndham statements may be.

In light of the new Policy at Smuglers Notch, if I were renting units there, I would absolutly now have a disclosure in the rental agreement that a sales presentation may be required.  If you do not that could result in unhappy campers that could file complaints against you.


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## am1

Wyndham treats all my guests very well.

Please understand that the sales staff would not budge on you attending the presentation alone as they want you both there to make the decision and sign.


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## timeos2

rrlongwell said:


> Wyndham Owner Care called the resort and they indicated that they were advised that in order to keep the amenities available for owners, they do now have a policy that attending a presentation is required, in addition to the fee to use the amenities.  Since this is a WAAM resort within the Wyndham system, I am assuming that this is a Wyndham test program and will be implemented system wide (subject to HOA approval) if it is successful.



They cannot require an owner to attend any "presentation". Period. It isn't legally enforceable. I have to repeat - tell them to shove it. 

The OP may wish to avoid any confrontation(s) (which unfortunately can impact the enjoyment of the visit) so use the old Wastegate ruse. Go ahead & schedule the "presentation" for as late in the stay as possible (preferably the last day!). Then either blow it off or, if you must, have only one family member show up. Give any excuse you want - if you're really stressed then say the others are in Emergency somewhere & you have to go NOW -  or whatever excuse you wish. Never have the other spouse show up - just repeat only you can make it & they usually give up or reschedule (which you definitely blow off). 

This is intimidation pure & simple. Do not let them get away with it. The owner (and you as their renter/guest) have ZERO - NO obligation to sales. None. If they say you do they are lying. Ask them to present the proof & ask for the number to the resource in the state that regulates timeshares. Then make a point of dialing it as they wait. 

Stick to your guns. I really hate that they ruin peoples vacations that should be stress free with this crap. Call them on it.


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## tschwa2

rrlongwell said:


> Wyndham Owner Care called the resort and they indicated that they were advised that in order to keep the amenities available for owners, they do now have a policy that attending a presentation is required, in addition to the fee to use the amenities.  Since this is a WAAM resort within the Wyndham system, I am assuming that this is a Wyndham test program and will be implemented system wide (subject to HOA approval) if it is successful.



I guess it is to pay for "free" pass for Wyndham owner/users.  Sorry that you were a test case, jenmsc.  It will definitely lower the value of renting from an owner.  You should be able to have your kids in camp at the discounted rate while on the presentation (with spouse) or bring them along and demand to leave with gift at the appointed time and make a point of saying the whole time that you would never buy because of this treatment.

If you don't get the pass enjoy the included amenities (which are pushing value at $363 and are way overpriced with tour and $363) and enjoy Stowe.  Take the toll road up Mt Mansfield.  Go to the Stowe Mountain Resort summer activities.  We did our own version of the taste of Vermont tour and stopped at Ben and Jerry's, a maple sugar farm, the cider mill, a glass blowing studio.  We were going to Cabot's- not the annex, but were a little tired and skipped it.  It was a fun day. Then enjoy the included pool.


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## learnalot

I was just thinking about this situation and how much it bugs me.  It may not even be "sales" that is promulgating this, but the whole sales machine.  In other words, the appointment setters want to get paid for booking you for a presentation.  So, here's a thought, wear a TUG tshirt or have tshirts printed that say "Don't buy retail.  Wyndham timeshares sell for $1 on ebay." and wear to the sales meeting.  As long as you know better than to buy retail and won't fall for their spiel, the sales rep will probably want to grt rid of you ASAP.  Tell them that you have NO intention of buying and are only there wasting their time because the appointment setters REFUSED to sell you an amenities pass without going to a sales presentation.  Maybe they will get the message.


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## hdmass

I'm sorry to hear that your first introduction to Smugglers' has not been positive.  It is my understanding that this requirement is only if you rent from a Wyndham owner.


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## jenmsc

"Please understand that the sales staff would not budge on you attending the presentation alone as they want you both there to make the decision and sign."

We are not living in feudal England.  Married women (and men) in this country are permitted to own real estate INDIVIDUALLY.  I went to a top 10 university, I have a graduate degree and enough of my own money to buy many timeshares at this place in cash if I wanted to. Why on earth would they presume that married people cannot make separate financial decisions, discussing it between them as much or as little as they choose to?

Last time my husband needed a car, he gave me his requirements in a brief conversation.  I researched the car online, narrowed it down to 2 choices.  He picked his amenities in about 5 minutes looking at the computer with me.  I contacted dealers, located the car, researched pricing online, negotiated (aggressively) for a week over the phone, paid for the car AND picked it up.   

$35,000 purchase.  His time investment: about 10 minutes. Why?  Because he does not have the time and delegates anything and everything he can to me so that he can do his job and give all his remaining time to me and the kids. Instead of spending the weekend yakking with car dealers, we went for a nice bike ride with the kids.

That someone would presume that one of us NEEDS the other there to make a decision like this is just freaky and insulting.


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## learnalot

Here is another thought...do you have a consumer advocate on any of the local news stations?  Vermont is a popular vacation destination from Connecticut and I agree that this bullying compulsory behavior must be skirting the edges of legal at best.


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## learnalot

jenmsc said:


> That someone would presume that one of us NEEDS the other there to make a decision like this is just freaky and insulting.



While your point is well taken, understand that their requirement for both spouses to be present is nothing more than an attempt to minimize any grounds for the contract to be cancelled.


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## rrlongwell

learnalot said:


> I was just thinking about this situation and how much it bugs me.  It may not even be "sales" that is promulgating this, but the whole sales machine.  In other words, the appointment setters want to get paid for booking you for a presentation.  So, here's a thought, wear a TUG tshirt or have tshirts printed that say "Don't buy retail.  Wyndham timeshares sell for $1 on ebay." and wear to the sales meeting.  As long as you know better than to buy retail and won't fall for their spiel, the sales rep will probably want to grt rid of you ASAP.  Tell them that you have NO intention of buying and are only there wasting their time because the appointment setters REFUSED to sell you an amenities pass without going to a sales presentation.  Maybe they will get the message.



I tend to agree with the point made above, it probably is not the salesperson since this is coming up prior to the involvement of the sales person.  The fact that Owner Care does not intervien, strongly indicates that the Wyndham "sales machine" is behind this. 

In my experience, this is not the first resort to condition some aspect of staying at the resort to doing what sales wants done.  From my perspective, this concept appears to being test marketed in different variations, at a number of Resorts.  Shawnee Village, the sales staff supporting Patriots Place, and National Harbor come to mind.


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## SOS8260456

timeos2 said:


> The OP may wish to avoid any confrontation(s) (which unfortunately can impact the enjoyment of the visit) so use the old Wastegate ruse. Go ahead & schedule the "presentation" for as late in the stay as possible (preferably the last day!). Then either blow it off or, if you must, have only one family member show up. Give any excuse you want - if you're really stressed then say the others are in Emergency somewhere & you have to go NOW -  or whatever excuse you wish. Never have the other spouse show up - just repeat only you can make it & they usually give up or reschedule (which you definitely blow off).
> 
> Stick to your guns. I really hate that they ruin peoples vacations that should be stress free with this crap. Call them on it.



I agree with this approach.  What is the worst they can do at this point?  Usually when people take or use the gift in advance of the presentation, there is a disclaimer that if you don't take the tour or meet the qualifications (such as spouse present or certain income levels) they charge your credit card the full price of the item which is usually discounted hotel reservations.  So in this case if the full price of the item is $350, you miss the scheduled tour and they charge your credit card the $350.  

The only problem would be if they valued the $350 pass at some ridiculously higher number.

OK,now we need a new thread to debate how this hurts wyndham points owners doing rentals, especially if they are considering doing something like this system wide.  I can see it happening at Glacier Canyon or Smokies Lodge because they have major indoor water parks included, but not sure what other Wyndham's have super special amenities worth paying extra for.  I can see Wyndham disallowing access to the beach at beach front properties unless you take their tour......:hysterical:


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## SOS8260456

learnalot said:


> Here is another thought...do you have a consumer advocate on any of the local news stations?  Vermont is a popular vacation destination from Connecticut and I agree that this bullying compulsory behavior must be skirting the edges of legal at best.



TimeshareForums has a member that is a consumer protection attorney, I wonder what his free thoughts on this would be.


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## flexible

deleted by flexible


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## am1

I think this situation has saved the Op from spending thousands of dollars on a timeshare they do not understand.


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## Beefnot

timeos2 said:


> They cannot require an owner to attend any "presentation". Period. It isn't legally enforceable. I have to repeat - tell them to shove it.
> 
> The OP may wish to avoid any confrontation(s) (which unfortunately can impact the enjoyment of the visit) so use the old Wastegate ruse. Go ahead & schedule the "presentation" for as late in the stay as possible (preferably the last day!). Then either blow it off or, if you must, have only one family member show up. Give any excuse you want - if you're really stressed then say the others are in Emergency somewhere & you have to go NOW -  or whatever excuse you wish. Never have the other spouse show up - just repeat only you can make it & they usually give up or reschedule (which you definitely blow off).
> 
> This is intimidation pure & simple. Do not let them get away with it. The owner (and you as their renter/guest) have ZERO - NO obligation to sales. None. If they say you do they are lying. Ask them to present the proof & ask for the number to the resource in the state that regulates timeshares. Then make a point of dialing it as they wait.
> 
> Stick to your guns. I really hate that they ruin peoples vacations that should be stress free with this crap. Call them on it.



Amen.  I second this.


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## jenmsc

"nothing more than an attempt to minimize any grounds for the contract to be cancelled."

Fair.  And maybe when they look at their numbers, they DO sell more (and see fewer cancellations) when they can deal with both spouses.  But there are some things you just can't get away with in the name of selling more stuff.  Its unethical and (maybe) a violation of constitutional rights.  What if they found that their sales rate when pitching to African Americans was just too low?  Can they refuse to pitch to you and offer you the pass because you're African American?  What if, in their research, they found that have a higher sales rate to women if the presentation is 120 minutes, but that they sell more to men if the presentation is 60 minutes?  Can they require that women sit there longer than men to purchase the same benefit package?  Can they legally place greater barriers to purchase to one person or another based on marital status?  

Sorry, but this reeks of discrimination.  Something tells me this would not stand up to legal challenge...


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## shifty1981

*I'm an owner*

Hi all, just heard about this horrible experience and wanted to help clarify a few things: 

1. Owners attend this presentation when visiting and it is NOT mandatory. In fact it was the kindest, fastest, no pressure presentation I've ever been to (not to mention great views of the mountains in the background). Easiest $75 I ever earned. 

2. The offices for buying the pass and attending the presentations are on opposite sides of the hallways. I'd pass on both and then go to the office to buy the pass later and you'll probably avoid the speil. 

3. Only renters from a Wyndham owner supposedly has to attend this presentation, not renters of regular smuggs owners (via RCI weeks/points or partial year owners). This is the vast majority of owners. It's another advantage for us. So when you rent try to find a non-Wyndham owner and avoid this hassle. 

4. The pass gets you access to a ton of stuff. They have it listed on their site. There are many additional pools and water slides that you would not have access to, including additional amenities. Smuggs is not your typical resort with a nice unit and not much else on site. You can also buy single day access or smaller days of access, say for example if you're not staying a whole week or have day trips in the beginning or end and don't want to pay for the whole week. If you don't buy the pass you have access to one communal pool in the center. It's a nice pool with two hot tubs, a single water slide and kiddie pool. But of course then it can be one of the more crowded ones. It also gets you access to the famously fun "Fun Zone" which has lots of fun things to do inside (bouncy houses and obstacle courses, arcade, mini golf and super mini golf, etc). 

I'm not trying to defend their tactics and I wish it weren't required. One thing you could ask for is Smuggs Cash. it's gift certificates that can be used anywhere. I got $75 after asking politely a couple times. Enough to cover a day of child care so DW and I could have some adventures not possible with a 2 year old. 

Hope that helps. Again, seek a regular Smuggs owner and you can get the pass without jumping through hoops.


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## siesta

I am glad I read this thread before I sent family and friends here with a guest certificate to find out the $350 pass doesnt transfer to your guests. Smuggs wont be seeing any business from me in that regards, and I love to gift weeks to members of fam. with young ones.


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## am1

What would be your damages if you were denied an opportunity to go on a tour?

Any one can buy but only some will be offered to go on a promotional tour.  The young, the old and single men are ones that are spared from the hook.


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## tschwa2

I wonder what would happen if you vacationed without your spouse.  Since Wyndham isn't budging you shouldn't either.  Post about this in as many places as possible.  Does this effect owners (non Wyndham) renting units also?  If it does I bet the owners won't be happy about this.


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## jenmsc

am1: Damages?  Irrelevant.  Its about discrimination.  They have a product to sell (the pass) to a certain group of people (renters of Wyndham owners).  To purchase the SAME THING, a married person must be accompanied by a spouse.  A single person may come in alone.  How is this different from telling someone that if they can buy the pass if they are an only child, but if they have a sibling visiting with them, they need to bring their sibling?  Or if you are over the age of 18 but your parent is staying in the unit with you, they have to come too?    

I have no idea what the laws are regarding his, but truly, nobody wants to feel like they are being treated differently by a business because of their marital status, family circumstances, race or anything else . Its off-putting.


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## presley

I think the person that you rented from is the one to be upset with.  If they didn't inform you of this information when you signed the rental agreement, they should compensate you for all associated expenses that you will incur because of their omission.


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## jenmsc

Flexible:  I did not mean to be boastful in my comment about being "educated" - my point was that neither I nor my husband doubt my ability to learn about a timeshare, crunch numbers and making a decision about this independently.  I resent the additional burden I have to make this purchase because of my marital status.

CT is not a community property state, and I don't think it matters anyway.  State laws will determine who gets what in the event of divorce, but no state law prohibits holding *title* to property individually if you're married. Who ultimately gets what in the event of divorce is really irrelevant to anyone selling anything to a married couple.


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## Beefnot

What if you just tell them you will be traveling alone with your children. Then tell them you're done talking about sales presentations, period.


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## geekette

jenmsc said:


> Time0s2: HOW do I tell them to shove it exactly?  (chuckle)
> 
> I would love to, but I have already pushed and shoved as far up as I can go in their bureaucracy.  If they refuse to sell me the pass at the desk, they refuse to sell me the pass. What can I do?  I'm not going there to sit in one pool all week...


That's not how it will work. When you get there you demand the pass for the money you plan to pay.  If they refuse, then you start getting loud and request resort manager.  Of course you have a printout showing that you are entitled to whatever the owner has in your back pocket.  Can't imagine they would continue this hard line at check-in.

If you have to, say Very Loudly "there is NO WAY that we are sitting through a 2 hour sales presentation in order to use the facilities here!  Are you going to sell me the pass or am I calling Corporate?"


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## jenmsc

Presley: I agree with you that the owner is responsible for knowing this, but I have a hard time holding her responsible when it seems that its a fairly new policy that is news even to people here.

Furthermore, as I said in my original post, I spoke several times with the Owner Services before I finalized everything and sent my final payment to the owner.  The whole time, this woman at OS sees that there are TWO names, clearly married, on the reservation.  I am talking to her about kids camps, so she knows we have kids.  NOT ONCE does she mention that this presentation is going to require both spouses.  Its only after I've booked that the tour booking lady tells me I need my husband in tow.

I find the policy ridiculous, but if they are going to have ridiculous policies, they really need to disclose!!  I called to make sure I understood what I was getting, made every effort to clarify with them, and OS misinformed me.  Now they won't even take responsibility for the omission.  That feels like a bigger deal to me than the owner's error.


----------



## flexible

deleted by flexible


----------



## geekette

jenmsc said:


> "Please understand that the sales staff would not budge on you attending the presentation alone as they want you both there to make the decision and sign."
> 
> We are not living in feudal England.  Married women (and men) in this country are permitted to own real estate INDIVIDUALLY.  I went to a top 10 university, I have a graduate degree and enough of my own money to buy many timeshares at this place in cash if I wanted to. Why on earth would they presume that married people cannot make separate financial decisions, discussing it between them as much or as little as they choose to?
> 
> Last time my husband needed a car, he gave me his requirements in a brief conversation.  I researched the car online, narrowed it down to 2 choices.  He picked his amenities in about 5 minutes looking at the computer with me.  I contacted dealers, located the car, researched pricing online, negotiated (aggressively) for a week over the phone, paid for the car AND picked it up.
> 
> $35,000 purchase.  His time investment: about 10 minutes. Why?  Because he does not have the time and delegates anything and everything he can to me so that he can do his job and give all his remaining time to me and the kids. Instead of spending the weekend yakking with car dealers, we went for a nice bike ride with the kids.
> 
> That someone would presume that one of us NEEDS the other there to make a decision like this is just freaky and insulting.



and is typical for ts.  My resort will not "update" without both of us, either.


----------



## lisa1001

I have looked into this policy at Smuggs as I had a coworker who wanted to rent a unit from me and we will be vacationing there at the end of August with extended family.

I just turned down the the folks wanting to rent from me because I didn't want to hear of any hassles later.  For my family we have my husband's name on one unit and mine on the other to circumvent the issue.

From numerous calls I've made and who knows if there's any truth to any of the info I received, it is my understanding that the original owners at Smuggs insisted that this be the case for Wyndham owners to give their " original" ownerships a bit more precedance (sp?).


----------



## rrlongwell

tschwa2 said:


> I wonder what would happen if you vacationed without your spouse.  Since Wyndham isn't budging you shouldn't either.  Post about this in as many places as possible.  Does this effect owners (non Wyndham) renting units also?  If it does I bet the owners won't be happy about this.



Myrtle Beach did the sales meeting anyway.


----------



## geekette

jenmsc said:


> am1: Damages?  Irrelevant.  Its about discrimination.  They have a product to sell (the pass) to a certain group of people (renters of Wyndham owners).  To purchase the SAME THING, a married person must be accompanied by a spouse.  A single person may come in alone.  How is this different from telling someone that if they can buy the pass if they are an only child, but if they have a sibling visiting with them, they need to bring their sibling?  Or if you are over the age of 18 but your parent is staying in the unit with you, they have to come too?
> 
> I have no idea what the laws are regarding his, but truly, nobody wants to feel like they are being treated differently by a business because of their marital status, family circumstances, race or anything else . Its off-putting.



You're getting worked up for nothing.  Marriage = Financial Interdependence.
Seriously doubt an 18 year old would be invited.  They also discriminate against those who they don't think make enough money to afford the product.  so what?

I would be shocked if there were laws about this!!!  

It's a sales ploy, that is all.  You are not required to attend. Yes, you want that pass, but you are not REQUIRED to do anything.  So exactly how a law would even be in play is beyond me.


----------



## geekette

jenmsc said:


> Flexible:  I did not mean to be boastful in my comment about being "educated" - my point was that neither I nor my husband doubt my ability to learn about a timeshare, crunch numbers and making a decision about this independently.  I resent the additional burden I have to make this purchase because of my marital status.
> 
> CT is not a community property state, and I don't think it matters anyway.  State laws will determine who gets what in the event of divorce, but no state law prohibits holding *title* to property individually if you're married. Who ultimately gets what in the event of divorce is really irrelevant to anyone selling anything to a married couple.



all well and good.  but this is timeshare, and it is sold the way it is sold.  Getting irate will change nothing.


----------



## brigechols

I would like to see the policy stating that you must attend a 2 hour presentation in order to purchase the SmuggsPass for $350. Did you request a copy of the written policy? Or the price for a SmuggsPass if you do not attend presentation?


----------



## WinniWoman

tschwa2 said:


> I wonder what would happen if you vacationed without your spouse.  Since Wyndham isn't budging you shouldn't either.  Post about this in as many places as possible.  Does this effect owners (non Wyndham) renting units also?  If it does I bet the owners won't be happy about this.



This does not affect non-Wyndham owners who rent their units.


----------



## timeos2

presley said:


> I think the person that you rented from is the one to be upset with.  If they didn't inform you of this information when you signed the rental agreement, they should compensate you for all associated expenses that you will incur because of their omission.



There is no reason for the owner to notify the renters of anything as it cannot be a requirement.  Period. It is a waste of energy even thinking about it as it isn't allowable.  Go & enjoy & ignore anything they say about it.


----------



## rrlongwell

flexible said:


> ... I have a feeling the WAAM division (WHAT does WAAM stand for?) ...



Wyndham Asset Affiliation Model (WAAM).

As I understand it, a resort like Smuglers Notice associates with Wyndham and Wyndham sells timeshare contracts at the Resort for a percentage of the sales price.  The resort affilattes with the Club Wyndham Access program or the Club Wyndham Plus program or both for those units that are placed under the respective trusts control and those units are then subjected to the respective trust rules.

http://www.smuggs.com/pages/universal/press/releaseWVO.php

As with all resorts that have exclusive sales agreements with Wyndham Vacation Owners and/or Wyndham Vacation Resorts, it appears that the Resort Management (whether Wyndham's Management Company or otherwise) marches to the for profit Wyndham's drum beat or run the risk of not have them make any signicant effort to move the unsold timeshare inventory.


----------



## jenmsc

Geekette:

Who says marriage=financial interdependence?  For what purpose?  For support, yes.  But for consumer purchases?  For some people it is, and for some it is not.  This kind of financial connectedness is defined by individuals in a marriage.  Divorce is a different matter entirely, but during the course of a marriage, there need not be any financial connectedness if the parties choose not to have any.  For any business to presume otherwise in the modern world is just backward and insulting.

Its not "optional". "Optional" is when a package is placed in front of you with all terms and conditions and you can decide to buy it or not. That isn't what happened here. I checked with the owner, I checked with the Wyndham front desk, and I checked with Owner Services. I did everything I could possibly have done to understand this before I finalized my reservation.  Only AFTER I made my reservation did they tell me about the spouse policy.  I did my due diligence, I didn't bargain for this, and now I have an irrevocable vacation (my start date is < 15 days away), subject to terms and conditions that they had ample opportunity to disclose and failed to.  For my purposes, the vacation is worthless without the package because I have kids, and because of my husband's time constraints I would not have purchased it at all if I had known about this "requirement".  So I don't feel like its a take it or leave it situation.  It feels like coercion.


----------



## pacodemountainside

The Wyndham VP Owner Relations is  shelly.griessel@wyn.com 

This thread  is in the same vien  as outraged at exchangers. It appears resorts  will be out doing each other to put the screws to non-owners. Force people to buy from Developer to get full benefits just like VIP  and PP.

As far as updates,  virtually all I have been to required both occupants of room, be it DH, DW,  GF, drinking buddy, etc. attend!

Typically  body snatchers  have   4 by 6   invite  form with requirements including age, income,  read English, etc. At several resorts they have refused to let GF and I tour as a couple  as  I am over  65 and she had to go as  single female and me as an advisor! This I think is discrimination, but not worth fighting at this stage of my life.

However, this tends to be non-Wyndham resorts as  when body snatcher learns in my trust  name  only  they really can't upgrade GF!


----------



## rrlongwell

jenmsc said:


> Geekette:
> 
> Who says marriage=financial interdependence?  For what purpose?  For support, yes.  But for consumer purchases?  For some people it is, and for some it is not.  This kind of financial connectedness is defined by individuals in a marriage.  Divorce is a different matter entirely, but during the course of a marriage, there need not be any financial connectedness if the parties choose not to have any.  For any business to presume otherwise in the modern world is just backward and insulting.
> 
> Its not "optional". "Optional" is when a package is placed in front of you with all terms and conditions and you can decide to buy it or not. That isn't what happened here. I checked with the owner, I checked with the Wyndham front desk, and I checked with Owner Services. I did everything I could possibly have done to understand this before I finalized my reservation.  Only AFTER I made my reservation did they tell me about the spouse policy.  I did my due diligence, I didn't bargain for this, and now I have an irrevocable vacation (my start date is < 15 days away), subject to terms and conditions that they had ample opportunity to disclose and failed to.  For my purposes, the vacation is worthless without the package because I have kids, and because of my husband's time constraints I would not have purchased it at all if I had known about this "requirement".  So I don't feel like its a take it or leave it situation.  It feels like coercion.



Since the vacation date is not here and it is a rental and the Owner did not disclose the change of policy to you as it relates to a mandatory meeting with the sales people (under any name), maybe they will refund the money and you can make a last minute reservation somewhere else.  

It appears, from a couple of other posts that appear to be owners at the Resort, this change in policy was not unknown to them.  If this is true, the rentor, I think, knew or should have know of the requirement for a sales presention as a condition of using the amenities in addition to the fees required.

Just out of idol interest, was this a E-Bay rentor, and if so, what was the name of the group handling the rental?


----------



## geekette

jenmsc said:


> Geekette:
> 
> *Who says marriage=financial interdependence?  *For what purpose?  For support, yes.  But for consumer purchases?  For some people it is, and for some it is not.  This kind of financial connectedness is defined by individuals in a marriage.  Divorce is a different matter entirely, but during the course of a marriage, there need not be any financial connectedness if the parties choose not to have any.  For any business to presume otherwise in the modern world is just backward and insulting.
> 
> Its not "optional". "Optional" is when a package is placed in front of you with all terms and conditions and you can decide to buy it or not. That isn't what happened here. I checked with the owner, I checked with the Wyndham front desk, and I checked with Owner Services. I did everything I could possibly have done to understand this before I finalized my reservation.  Only AFTER I made my reservation did they tell me about the spouse policy.  I did my due diligence, I didn't bargain for this, and now I have an irrevocable vacation (my start date is < 15 days away), subject to terms and conditions that they had ample opportunity to disclose and failed to.  For my purposes, the vacation is worthless without the package because I have kids, and because of my husband's time constraints I would not have purchased it at all if I had known about this "requirement".  So I don't feel like its a take it or leave it situation.  It feels like coercion.



look, ts is sold this way - "we must have husband AND wife".  I don't make the rules, this is what they do.  get as mad as you want about it, but that's how it is.  they don't care who makes what decisions in the household, that's not their problem.  They want both parties so they make a decision to buy together.  selling to only one risks the whole deal.  

yes, they should have told you husband and wife, but they didn't.  It's a very common detail.

But the pass IS OPTIONAL.  It is not required for you to stay in the accomodations you have already rented.  There is no coercion here.  They have something you want and have offered a way for you to have it.  

I'm simply trying to get you to see it a different way in an effort to decrease your anger.  you have every right to be angry, but it does you no good and I hate to see it.  I don't know you, but it seems so unfair for someone to be so mad about something as wonderful as vacation at Smuggs!

Consider the pass optional, and go in there with your best effort to nab it without any presentation at all.  

Maybe you are still pissed by then and can start hollering about why does my husband need to be here, etc.  Sometimes if one makes a loud nuisance of themselves, sales presentations go by very quickly.

Sorry this has you so upset.  Sorry you did not get the full info as it is clear that you attempted to collect all material details and did not receive quite everything you needed to make a decision.


----------



## rrlongwell

pacodemountainside said:


> The Wyndham VP Owner Relations is  shelly.giessel@wyn.com
> 
> This thread  is in the same vien  as outraged at exchangers. It appears resorts  will be out doing each other to put the screws to non-owners. Force people to buy from Developer to get full benefits just like VIP  and PP.
> 
> As far as updates,  virtually all I have been to required both occupants of room, be it DH, DW,  GF, drinking buddy, etc. attend!
> 
> Typically  body snatchers  have   4 by 6   invite  form with requirements including age, income,  read English, etc. At several resorts they have refused to let GF and I tour as a couple  as  I am over  65 and she had to go as  single female and me as an advisor! This I think is discrimination, but not worth fighting at this stage of my life.
> 
> However, this tends to be non-Wyndham resorts as  when body snatcher learns in my trust  name  only  they really can't upgrade GF!



OH MY GOSH, do not let this secret become known, I actually think you are right !!!!!!!!!!!

In my opinion, if your significant other is being denied services because of her association with you in a non-martial status, you would not be the agrieved party (I think it would be very hard to get a state agency or EEOC pursue a complaint from you based on age into litagation, and it is unlikely Wyndham would settle that for finance reasons).  However, she arguably is very much be an agreived party and could very well be a basis for civil rights complaints based on different treatment becase of age/gender. Specifically on the issue of have a 2nd person attend a tour with her i.e. she would be denied the experience and advise of a older person.    The age portion could come in if she is 4 or more years younger than you.  If it is under 4 years, then there is a good chance that portion of the claim would fail because it could be argued that there is not a significant age difference, in your particular case.  Additionally, if the Age portion failed, that would probably make the gender portion very difficult to prove.  In most states, I think your siginficant other would have sufficient basis to get in the front door and file a discrimination complaint with the appropriate State/Federal authorities.  If the state involved is a contract agency with EEOC, then the odds approach 100 percent that your significant other's complaint would be filed with the EEOC at the same time.  A state contract agency with a EEOC contract gets a few bucks for the the dual filing.  They do the investigation, your significant other would generally have appeal rights to a negative decision both through the States internal process and EEOC.  It does not cost you anything in any state to do this, as far as I know.

If I were your investigator, I would try to get Wyndham to sign up to a pre-determination settlement that permits your significant other to attend sales presentations with associated free bees under the same terms and conditions of any other single person.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am retired from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.  19 plus of my years of service was for the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commision.  This state agency did have the federal EEOC contracts for both Title VII and the federal age act.  I have done 19 plus years of investigations into this type of complaint.


----------



## DrBopp

jenmsc said:


> "Please understand that the sales staff would not budge on you attending the presentation alone as they want you both there to make the decision and sign."
> 
> We are not living in feudal England.  Married women (and men) in this country are permitted to own real estate INDIVIDUALLY.  I went to a top 10 university, I have a graduate degree and enough of my own money to buy many timeshares at this place in cash if I wanted to. Why on earth would they presume that married people cannot make separate financial decisions, discussing it between them as much or as little as they choose to?
> 
> That someone would presume that one of us NEEDS the other there to make a decision like this is just freaky and insulting.



jenmsc,
 FWIW,I own all timeshares in my name alone and I cannot go to a sales pitch alone if my wife is traveling with me. The Wyndham sales staff insists that she come along. I enjoy attending these "updates", but my wife does not. So unless I am traveling alone, they will not let me attend. So,that part has nothing to do with anything other than increasing their chances to make the sale stick once they have swindled you. 

Gordon


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## flexible

*The Wyndham VP Owner Relations is shelly.giessel@wyn.com email undeliverable*

shelly.griessel@wyn.com was provided in post below.


----------



## Beefnot

Is wyn.com the right extension? Should it be wyndham.com?


----------



## rrlongwell

Beefnot said:


> Is wyn.com the right extension? Should it be wyndham.com?



Try:

@wyndhamvo.com

If one had a bad sense of humor, one might try fhornig@wyndhamvo.com and see if it goes anywhere.  As more practical matter if you want to up-line the issue, call Owner Care and insist on talking with the escalation department.


----------



## pacodemountainside

flexible said:


> Paco,
> I emailed Ms. Shelly Giessel at the email address provided to ask how Ken and I would be treated at Wyndham.
> 
> It came back:
> This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.
> 
> Delivery to the following recipients failed.
> 
> shelly.giessel@wyn.com
> 
> Can you double check your source for her email address.
> 
> Thanks
> Flexible



I sent  her an e-mail about 4 months ago and  problem was  promptly resolved. Pretty sure she presided over 2012 VOI  May meeting.

It is possible another shake up at Wyndham. Her predecessor was Deane Gabel. She presided at  2010 VOI meeting in May  and in June just disappeared.

Have you received any mailings from Wyndham recently? She signed  owner surveys, MF notices, etc.

I guess best bet would be call Owner Realations  at  800-251-8736 option 3 and ask to speak with her and find out who has taken her place!

This has to be a tough position  trying to keep owners happy while  not incurring the wrath of  powerful sales operation.

Oops: 

Looks like I made a typo:   try shelly.griessel@wyn.com 

Don't understand why it appeared in blue!


----------



## rickandcindy23

Getting down to the issue, I called and talked to Wyndham VIP, and they told me there is no such policy for any guest to attend a presentation.  Period.  No policy for a mandatory presentation at all, and all you need to do is pay the fee for using the facilities, and you get to use the facilities.  She even told me it was $129.  

I talked to a supervisor at the VIP desk, and if you want the number to the VIP desk, please PM me, Jen, and I will give you the number for you to call.  You can use my name and tell them the issue.  But she also said you can tell the Wyndham owner who rented you this week about this hassle, and that Wyndham owner can call the VIP desk, too. 

It's very important that you do call and not let the sales department get by with such a blatant lie.


----------



## geekette

rickandcindy23 said:


> Getting down to the issue, I called and talked to Wyndham VIP, and they told me there is no such policy for any guest to attend a presentation.  Period.  No policy for a mandatory presentation at all, and all you need to do is pay the fee for using the facilities, and you get to use the facilities.  She even told me it was $129.
> 
> I talked to a supervisor at the VIP desk, and if you want the number to the VIP desk, please PM me, Jen, and I will give you the number for you to call.  You can use my name and tell them the issue.  But she also said you can tell the Wyndham owner who rented you this week about this hassle, and that Wyndham owner can call the VIP desk, too.
> 
> It's very important that you do call and not let the sales department get by with such a blatant lie.



YAY, Cindy!!!


----------



## Rent_Share

rickandcindy23 said:


> It's very important that you do call and not let *the sales department* get by with *such a blatant lie*.


 

 But they do it so often they don't even realize they are doing it​


----------



## timeos2

geekette said:


> YAY, Cindy!!!



Yes, thank you for verifying what I knew was a tempest about nothing. When an owner/renter is involved there is never any required torture attendance. No exceptions. It is always optional.  Anyone that says different is a liar. Of course that goes without saying that if sales is in any way involved it will be a lie.


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## Tia

Yep if sales can lie during a presentation then they can certainly be lying before one to try and trap people into something as looks like they are........  How low can they go?


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## am1

Tia said:


> Yep if sales can lie during a presentation then they can certainly be lying before one to try and trap people into something as looks like they are........  How low can they go?



Seems like a good trap.  Have the guests pay the fee but then say once they buy it is free.  

Retail sales will need these things to offset resale and renting.


----------



## learnalot

rickandcindy23 said:


> Getting down to the issue, I called and talked to Wyndham VIP, and they told me there is no such policy for any guest to attend a presentation.  Period.  No policy for a mandatory presentation at all, and all you need to do is pay the fee for using the facilities, and you get to use the facilities.  She even told me it was $129.
> 
> I talked to a supervisor at the VIP desk, and if you want the number to the VIP desk, please PM me, Jen, and I will give you the number for you to call.  You can use my name and tell them the issue.  But she also said you can tell the Wyndham owner who rented you this week about this hassle, and that Wyndham owner can call the VIP desk, too.
> 
> It's very important that you do call and not let the sales department get by with such a blatant lie.



Thanks for calling Cindy.  I had a meeting but I was thinking about doing that also.  It seems to me that this is the work of an overly aggressive appointmemt setter who wants her warm bodies finder's fee.  OP - if you have the person's name, turn them in and include it on your post stay evaluation.

Be prepared for them to repeat the same lies to you during the checkin process - remember they get paid if you go.   Just say no or tell them you will let them know.  When you are done there, just go to what is a seperate office according to people who have been there and purchase activities passes.


----------



## WinniWoman

rickandcindy23 said:


> Getting down to the issue, I called and talked to Wyndham VIP, and they told me there is no such policy for any guest to attend a presentation.  Period.  No policy for a mandatory presentation at all, and all you need to do is pay the fee for using the facilities, and you get to use the facilities.  She even told me it was $129.
> 
> I talked to a supervisor at the VIP desk, and if you want the number to the VIP desk, please PM me, Jen, and I will give you the number for you to call.  You can use my name and tell them the issue.  But she also said you can tell the Wyndham owner who rented you this week about this hassle, and that Wyndham owner can call the VIP desk, too.
> 
> It's very important that you do call and not let the sales department get by with such a blatant lie.




So are you saying that Wyndham owners/renters/guests/exchangers do not have to attend the presentation at SMUGGS and only have to pay $129.00 for the PASS as opposed to the $360.00?


----------



## learnalot

pacodemountainside said:


> The Wyndham VP Owner Relations is  shelly.giessel@wyn.com
> 
> This thread  is in the same vien  as outraged at exchangers. It appears resorts  will be out doing each other to put the screws to non-owners. Force people to buy from Developer to get full benefits just like VIP  and PP.



Yes and no.  If the issue were simply one of non owners needing to purchase the amenities passes, it would be the same vein.  Here, the issue was telling them that they were REQUIRED TO SIT THROUGH A SALES PRESENTATION in order to evem have the opportunity to purchase amenities passes.  Cindy has since comfirmed this to be hogwash, as well it should be.


----------



## jenmsc

Cindy, thank you so much!  I have PM'd you for the contact information.  I will update this thread to let everyone know the outcome once I talk to Wyndham VIP.


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## flexible

deleted by flexible


----------



## Beefnot

I am dizzy.


----------



## shifty1981

The hopeful one in me wants to blame all of this on someone in the leadership chain in the sales department, not the sales rep themselves. They've probably been told this is the policy without knowing they are being lied to. 

On the other hand I once spent 30 minutes talking to a car dealership internet sales rep on the phone and when I went in to finally meet with the dealer he said most of what the internet rep had said on the phone was not true and it would be "dealt with". Yeah right. The phone guy gets paid per customer who comes in regardless of outcome so he just wanted me in the door. So I wouldn't put it past the sales rep to come up with this either. Or are all reps saying this?


----------



## learnalot

shifty1981 said:


> The hopeful one in me wants to blame all of this on someone in the leadership chain in the sales department, not the sales rep themselves. They've probably been told this is the policy without knowing they are being lied to.
> 
> On the other hand I once spent 30 minutes talking to a car dealership internet sales rep on the phone and when I went in to finally meet with the dealer he said most of what the internet rep had said on the phone was not true and it would be "dealt with". Yeah right. The phone guy gets paid per customer who comes in regardless of outcome so he just wanted me in the door. So I wouldn't put it past the sales rep to come up with this either. Or are all reps saying this?



I don't think it's sales.  I think it is the appointment setters - the people who send people to sales.  Sales tells a different set of lies.


----------



## jenmsc

I am not sure its the appointment setters driving this whole thing. 

The Wyndham front desk was the first to tell me that my attendance at the pitch was required for an amenities pass.  Owner Services, in a separate phone call, repeated the requirement.  The first time I heard about the spouse requirement was from an appointment setter.  I complained, got sent back to the same person at Owner Services, and the person at Owner Services then confirmed that my spouse's attendance was actually required.  The person at OS (at my request) checked "up the line" somewhere and called me back to confirm the this was the policy, no exceptions.  

I don't see what incentive Owner Services has to get an extra warm body in there at a pitch.  But what do I know?  I'm totally green at this.

Hopefully this person at VIP can shed some light.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Go to the guest check-in desk and tell them you want to speak to the resort manager and don't take no for an answer.


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## flexible

deleted by flexible


----------



## learnalot

jenmsc said:


> I am not sure its the appointment setters driving this whole thing.
> 
> The Wyndham front desk was the first to tell me that my attendance at the pitch was required for an amenities pass.  Owner Services, in a separate phone call, repeated the requirement.  The first time I heard about the spouse requirement was from an appointment setter.  I complained, got sent back to the same person at Owner Services, and the person at Owner Services then confirmed that my spouse's attendance was actually required.  The person at OS (at my request) checked "up the line" somewhere and called me back to confirm the this was the policy, no exceptions.
> 
> I don't see what incentive Owner Services has to get an extra warm body in there at a pitch.  But what do I know?  I'm totally green at this.
> 
> Hopefully this person at VIP can shed some light.



Jen,

If they were offering to GIVE you passes in exchange for attending a presentation, that would be fairly typical.  Also fairly typical would be deeply discounting the passes in exchange for attending.  But you should be able to purchase them outright without a sales presentation.

Also, FYI, depending on the setup at the resort, often the appt setter IS the front desk person.


----------



## am1

jenmsc said:


> Hopefully this person at VIP can shed some light.



Who at VIP???

I do not think the OP is at the resort yet.

Flexible,  I am not sure you will receive a reply.  She is the manager of the trust of Wyndham owners.  This post has not really caused that much outrage.  There are a lot bigger issues.


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## flexible

deleted by flexible


----------



## brigechols

geekette said:


> YAY, Cindy!!!





jenmsc said:


> I am not sure its the appointment setters driving this whole thing.
> 
> The Wyndham front desk was the first to tell me that my attendance at the pitch was required for an amenities pass.  Owner Services, in a separate phone call, repeated the requirement.  The first time I heard about the spouse requirement was from an appointment setter.  I complained, got sent back to the same person at Owner Services, and the person at Owner Services then confirmed that my spouse's attendance was actually required.  The person at OS (at my request) checked "up the line" somewhere and called me back to confirm the this was the policy, no exceptions.
> 
> I don't see what incentive Owner Services has to get an extra warm body in there at a pitch.  But what do I know?  I'm totally green at this.
> 
> Hopefully this person at VIP can shed some light.



Perhaps you should read through this thread again. Lots of owners with lots of experience responded to your posts. The persons from the Wyndham front desk and Owner Services lied. You and your family can have a wonderful vacation and obtain passes without you or your husband attending a sales presentation. Geekette explained quite succinctly why Wyndham wants your husband to attend the sales presentation. After you speak with Cindy's contact, get that person to confirm in writing your conversation, give that document to the Wyndham front desk upon arrival, unplug the phone in your unit, and have a great time


----------



## am1

I do over 100 Wyndham rentals a year and the front desk staff are great and any additional fees are not a surprise.  

I do not know how you plan to use your el cid points at OTA.  Your  EL Cid manual will have a listing of the Wyndham resorts available.  

The things to consider there would be: urban location so not many onsite amenities, pool is off site with limited hours, possible noise at night, limited parking.


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## Beefnot

Deleted by Beefnot....Oh lord...


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## flexible

http://www.smuggs.com/pages/summer/rci/summerBenefits.php

I SmuggsPass - Your Pass to Fun at Smugglers' Notch Resort! 

Winter 

Smugglers' offers a variety of award-winning family activities and Winter events* plus some great discounts on your ski and snowboard needs. These activities and events are available December 7, 2012 - April 7, 2013 . Discounts are available during non-holiday periods. We hope that your family will make the most of your Winter vacation by participating in our planned events and using our facilities such as: 

Unlimited Use of the FunZone Family Entertainment Center: a 22-foot Giant Double Lane Slide, 45-foot giant obstacle course, mini-golf, the crawl-through Train Express, arcade games, and more.

PLUS: 

Family Fun Races, Ice Skating, Bingo, Live Music, Karaoke, Marko the Magician, Showtime, Après Ski Parties, Dancing, Hot Chocolate Warm-ups, Winter Walking, Outer Limits and Teen Alley Teen Centers. 
Discounts: 
10% off nursery
10% off lift tickets
15% off children's camps
15% off group lessons
15% off ski & snowboard rentals
15% off sport shop purchase of non-sale items

All of these activities, facilities and discounts are available to your entire party during your RCI stay at Smugglers' with the purchase of a SmuggsPass. The Winter SmuggsPass cost is $273 per home per week (plus tax) and covers everyone staying in the home. The SmuggsPass will be prorated for shorter stays. Purchase of the SmuggsPass must be for your entire length of stay.

Get the best value from your vacation at America's Family Resort by registering for these programs and discounts prior to your arrival. These programs and fees are subject to change.

*Fee based activities such as Massage sessions, Artists in the Mountains, Zip Line Canopy Tours, snowmobile tours and dog sledding are additional and are not covered by the general facilities fee. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Summer 

In order to fully enjoy your vacation we recommend that you consider purchasing our Summer SmuggsPass. The SmuggsPass entitles everyone staying in your home access to the following activities* and facilities, plus great discounts on our award-winning children's programs and shopping! These activities and facilities are available June 8 - September 3, 2012. 

Unlimited Use of 8 Heated Pools & 4 Waterslides: 

Mountainside Water Park including the Giant Rapid River Ride, Turtleslide and Little Smugglers’ Lagoon
Notchville Park with the Twister Waterslide and Lily Pad Walk 
Courtside Pool with the Flume Waterslide and 2 hot tubs
Rum Runners’ Hideaway, home to our 25-foot Aqua Jump 

Unlimited Use of the FunZone Family Entertainment Center: a 22-foot Giant Double Lane Slide, 45-foot giant obstacle course, mini-golf, the crawl-through Train Express, arcade games, and more.

PLUS: 

Stretch & Go 1, 2, & 3, Smuggsational Family Social, Sterling Pond Hike, Marko’s Magic Show, Woodland Mini-Golf, Birds and Bloomers Walk, Family Splashdown, Aqua Aerobics, Bootleggers’ Basin Wike, Bonfire Sing-along, Forest Heritage Wike, Entertainment with Goodtime Charlie, FunMeister’s Clubhouse, Family Ties — I-Did-A-Cart, Woodland Wildlife Nature Wike, Bigger is Better, Watermelon Walk, Aqua-Volleyball, Nature Center, Village Garden Tour, Outer Limits, Teen Alley, Teen Dodgeball Tourney, Liquid Courage Karaoke, Bingo Blast, Explore Morse Mountain Hike, Mount Mansfield Hike, Bears and Berries Wike, Adult Volleyball, Golf Tips, Friendly Pirate's Rain Gutter Regatta, High Peak Tour, River Walk, Stowe Pinnacle Hike, No Strings Marionettes, Family Pedal Go Cart Race, Family Karaoke, Family Movie on the Green, Vermont Country Fair, Goodtime Charlie Dance Party, Live Band Jam, and more! 
Discounts: 
10% off the daily childcare rate at TREASURES.
15% off the purchase of non-sale items at 3 Mountain Outfitters.
30% discount off our Discovery Dynamos, Trail Blazers, Adventure Rangers, Notch Squad and Mountain Explorer Camp Programs. 
All of these activities, facilities and discounts are available to your entire party during your RCI stay at Smugglers' with the purchase of a SmuggsPass. The Summer SmuggsPass cost is $343 per home per week (plus tax) and covers everyone staying in the home. The SmuggsPass will be prorated for shorter stays. Purchase of the SmuggsPass must be for your entire length of stay.

Get the best value from your vacation at America's Family Resort by registering for these programs and discounts prior to your arrival. These programs and fees are subject to change.

*Fee based activities such as Massage sessions, Artists in the Mountains, Zip Line Canopy Tours, Water & Wine Trip are additional and are not covered by the SmuggsPass.


----------



## flexible

I am still CONFUSED since I was clueless about this *Third Fee-for-Service Sales Model Agreements *but in reviewing post #56 by rrlongwell I clicked on the link mentioned. I OBVIOUSLY do NOT understand this TYPE of "timesharing." *Is this a TREND that might be happening more often?*

Maybe the OP should be contacting:

Lisa Burby
*Vice President, Corporate Communications
Wyndham Vacation Ownership*
(407) 626-5146
Lisa.Burby@wyn.com

Steve Gerrish
*Director, Corporate Communications
Wyndham Vacation Ownership*
(407) 626-5321
Steve.Gerrish@wyn.com

Karen Boushie
*Public Relations*
Smugglers' Notch Resort
(802) 644-1156
mediarelations@smuggs.com

Information above is at the bottom of 
http://www.smuggs.com/pages/universal/press/releaseWVO.php

WYNDHAM VACATION OWNERSHIP ANNOUNCES AFFILIATION WITH TOP FAMILY SKI DESTINATION - SMUGGLERS’ NOTCH VERMONT®

*Marks Company’s Entry into Vermont and Third Fee-for-Service Sales Model Agreement*

ORLANDO, Fla. (January 6, 2011) – Wyndham Vacation Ownership (WVO), the world’s largest vacation ownership company and a member of the Wyndham Worldwide family of companies (NYSE:WYN), today announced it has entered into an exclusive sales and marketing agreement with Smugglers’ Notch Management Company, Ltd. Terms of the agreement were not disclosed.

*WVO is expected to become the exclusive sales and marketing agent for the sale of vacation ownership interests at Smugglers*’ Notch Vermont® Resort; sales are anticipated to begin in the second quarter of 2011. Through this arrangement, it is anticipated that all unsold interests will become part of the company's flexible, club-based CLUBWYNDHAM® Access product. Completion of the transaction is subject to customary closing conditions.

“This is another significant step in executing our fee-for-service timeshare sales model that *enables us to continue growing our vacation ownership business while effectively optimizing cash flow*,” said Franz Hanning, president and chief executive officer, Wyndham Vacation Ownership. “Smugglers’ Notch has a proud history of providing family-friendly vacations which aligns with our business model of providing memorable vacation experiences for families. The affiliation with Smugglers’ Notch facilitates our expansion in New England and provides our owners with another world-class vacation property.”

The property is also expected to operate as a WVO affiliated resort within CLUB WYNDHAM Plus®, the company’s points-based internal exchange program that allows owners to vacation at more than 70 resorts and enjoy other vacation options and access to special travel opportunities such as cruises and guided tours. It is anticipated that Wyndham’s timeshare owners can begin vacationing at Smugglers’ Notch Vermont® Resort in the second quarter of 2011. Residential home purchases and rentals at the Resort, as well as property management services, will continue to be managed by Smugglers’ Notch Management Company, Ltd.

“Wyndham’s selection of Smugglers’ Notch as one of their affiliated properties underscores the benefits associated with ownership at Smugglers’, known for our dedication to great customer service and innovative children’s and family programs,” said *Bill Stritzler, Smugglers’ Notch owner and managing director.* “We believe the relationship between Wyndham Vacation Ownership and Smugglers’ Notch Resort will enhance the overall opportunities for both brands.”

Consistently mentioned by major newspapers and ski magazines as a top-rated destination for skiing and family programs, the Resort is located in the Green Mountains of Vermont and features mountainside condominiums ranging from studios to five-bedroom homes, clustered around a Village core. Guests can enjoy a wide variety of year-round recreational programs and facilities including over 1,000 acres of skiing and snowboarding terrain in the winter and eight heated pools and four waterslides in the summer.

With this latest project, WVO will continue to capitalize upon the momentum that began in March 2010 when it announced an *exclusive sales and marketing fee-for-service agreement* for 137 condominium-style units at the *newly re-branded Wyndham Vacation Resorts Towers* on the *Grove at North Myrtle Beach, SC*. In August, the company announced an exclusive sales and marketing agreement with Reunion Resort for the sale of vacation ownership interests in up to 256 condominium-style units at the rebranded Wyndham Vacation Resorts Reunion at Orlando.

ABOUT WYNDHAM VACATION OWNERSHIP
Wyndham Vacation Ownership, a member of the Wyndham Worldwide (NYSE: WYN) family of companies, is the world’s largest vacation ownership business, as measured by the number of vacation ownership resorts, individual vacation ownership units and owners of vacation ownership interests. Wyndham Vacation Ownership develops, markets and sells vacation ownership interests and provides consumer financing to owners through its three primary consumer brands, Wyndham Vacation Resorts, WorldMark by Wyndham, and Wyndham Vacation Resorts Asia Pacific. As of January 1, 2010, Wyndham Vacation Ownership had developed or acquired over 155 vacation ownership resorts throughout the United States, Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean and the South Pacific that represent approximately 20,000 individual vacation ownership units and more than 820,000 owners of vacation ownership interests. Wyndham Vacation Ownership is headquartered in Orlando, Fla., and is supported by approximately 12,500 employees globally.

ABOUT SMUGGLERS’ NOTCH VERMONT® RESORT
Smugglers’ Notch Resort is a year-round family vacation destination featuring outdoor and indoor activities. During summertime, the Resort offers eight pools and four waterslides, children’s all-day programs, guided hiking, and numerous activities for all ages. Winter fun features skiing and snowboarding for all abilities on 78 trails and 1,000 acres of terrain on three mountains. New this season is a zipline canopy tour provided in partnership with ArborTrek Canopy Adventures. The Resort’s extensive family programs have been recognized by SKI Magazine, the Family Travel Forum, FamilyFun Magazine, and Conde Nast Traveler magazine, among others. The Resort is the only vacation property in Vermont to be designated an Environmental Leader. Smugglers’ is located in the Green Mountains about 45-minutes northeast of Burlington, Vermont. For more information, visit www.smuggs.com.


----------



## jenmsc

deleting a double post...


----------



## jenmsc

A clarification: I am not yet at the resort, but I am locked in to the reservation.  I am scheduled to check-in in less than 2 weeks, so my owner can't get points back if I cancel, as I understand it.  

brigechols: I have to say, when people on this thread started saying that I could just march in there like I owned the place, buy my pass at this special "pass" desk I had never seen and insist that the presentation requirement was a lie, I was kind of incredulous.  I have dealt with all sorts of institutions in my life.  I am frequently misinformed by staff with incorrect information, and I have had to research and complain a little to resolve problems when that happens.  But I've NEVER been lied to outright about something so seemingly routine as amenities pricing and conditions.  I did not want to accuse them of this without evidence, but Cindy has gotten that evidence.  

Lesson learned:  Timesharing is one crooked business.

Thank you everyone for helping me dodge this bullet.  I want NOTHING to do with timeshares anymore!!


----------



## Rent_Share

jenmsc said:


> .
> 
> Lesson learned: Timesharing is one crooked business.
> 
> Thank you everyone for helping me dodge this bullet. I want NOTHING to do with timeshares anymore!!


 

:hysterical: Amen :hysterical:


----------



## learnalot

flexible said:


> Would the Wyndham OWNER who rented to Jen suffer damages (other than time) to allow her to cancel at no charge.
> I heard Wyndham doesn't have charges similar to VI like reservation booking fees ETC
> Some owners @ ECVC have charges IF they make/change lots of reservations & run out of free transactions. Those charges don't apply to us.
> 
> .



At this point the Wyndham owner would not be able to get their points back.  You must cancel at least 15 days advance in order for that to happen.  However, if I had rented this unit to Jen, you had better believe they would be hearing from me...they almost heard from me anyway but Cindy already took care of it.


----------



## ace2000

flexible said:


> deleted by flexible


 


Beefnot said:


> *I am dizzy.*


 


flexible said:


> deleted by flexible


 


flexible said:


> deleted by flexible


 


flexible said:


> deleted by flexible


 


flexible said:


> deleted by flexible


 


jenmsc said:


> deleting a double post...


 
What is going on around here?


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## SOS8260456

Leave the board for a few hours and you don't know what you will miss...looks like you guys were busy posting and deleting.


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## rrlongwell

ace2000 said:


> What is going on around here?



I do not know.  It looks it is time to print the remaining posts before they disppear to.  Oh well, it was interesting while it lasted.


----------



## WinniWoman

jenmsc said:


> A clarification: I am not yet at the resort, but I am locked in to the reservation.  I am scheduled to check-in in less than 2 weeks, so my owner can't get points back if I cancel, as I understand it.
> 
> brigechols: I have to say, when people on this thread started saying that I could just march in there like I owned the place, buy my pass at this special "pass" desk I had never seen and insist that the presentation requirement was a lie, I was kind of incredulous.  I have dealt with all sorts of institutions in my life.  I am frequently misinformed by staff with incorrect information, and I have had to research and complain a little to resolve problems when that happens.  But I've NEVER been lied to outright about something so seemingly routine as amenities pricing and conditions.  I did not want to accuse them of this without evidence, but Cindy has gotten that evidence.
> 
> Lesson learned:  Timesharing is one crooked business.
> 
> 
> Thank you everyone for helping me dodge this bullet.  I want NOTHING to do with timeshares anymore!!



But, what will the cost of your PASS be? $360.00 or $129.00? There seems to be a mix up about that as well.


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## ronparise

flexible said:


> I am still CONFUSED since I was clueless about Third Fee-for-Service Sales Model Agreements but in reviewing post #56 by rrlongwell I clicked on the link mentioned. I OBVIOUSLY do NOT understand this TYPE of "timesharing." *Is this a TREND that might be happening more often?*



This type of timesharing is nothing new.

I wondered how long it would take you and RRLonwell to hook up. I dont think he understands what WAAM is either. But it doesnt stop him from  talking about it as if he did

The fee for services model is nothing new or unique, but its certainly a current trend. With the money  to buy land and develop new properties so difficult to come by, and the number of failed condo developments  as high as it is, it seems a natural to me. Convert the condo project to timeshares and bring in the experts (Wyndham, Bluegreen, Marriott, etc) to sell and/or manage them. 

There's precedent for this sort of thing. Most of the hotels that fly the Marriott Flag, are not owned by Marriott.(they offer their name and or their management for a fee to the actual owners of the hotels)  And all the Wyndham hotels like Ramada, Howard Johnson, Days Inn, Super 8; they are not owned by  Wyndham. They are franchises. Individual owners own them.and they pay Wyndham for the name and their management guidelines.

Regarding fee for service in the timeshare industry...“There’s a lot of precedence for this trend,” said ARDA President and CEO Howard Nusbaum in a follow-up interview. “In the early 1970s, overbuilding of condominiums, coupled with the energy crisis and high interest rates, put the condo industry in a situation that looks a lot like today. And, as a result, the U.S. timeshare industry was born. It’s very fitting that today timesharing can be a workout for overbuilt condos because that’s exactly what happened 40 years ago.”

BOCA RATON, FL (April 11, 2011) — Bluegreen Corporation (NYSE: BXG) has announced the expansion of its fee-based services business to The Manhattan Club, a premiere timeshare resort property located in midtown Manhattan. Bluegreen will be providing sales, marketing and title services to The Manhattan Club.

Marriott decided to spin-off its timeshare business in 2011, touting it as a value creation opportunity for investors who want to invest in a pure play timeshare business. The firm followed a similar offloading strategy when it executed another spin-off in 1993 leading to separation of all its real estate holdings into a new entity named Host Marriot. Similarly, this spin-off might be motivated by desire to offload real estate and loan portfolio *to create a pure service business. *

Wyndham Vacation Ownership (Wyndham timeshare) has announced its new affiliation in an exclusive sales and marketing agreement with Smugglers’ Notch Management Company, Ltd. Plans at this time call for all of the unsold interests in Smugglers’ Notch timeshare to become part of CLUB WYNDHAM Plus ®....Other resorts that are part of an exclusive sales and marketing fee-for-service agreement with Wyndham include the 137 condominium-style units at the re-branded Wyndham Vacation Resorts Towers on the Grove at North Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, and 256 condominium-style units of vacation ownership at the rebranded Wyndham Vacation Resorts Reunion in Orlando, Florida.




So what does this mean for you and me. The folks that own the individual units?...Nothing I think, except that we will have more places to vacation within the system. Each resort will still have their own Association and their own Board of Directors and most important for this discussion their own rules, policies and procedures. Management will do their best to standardize the policies across all their resorts, and do their best to extract as much profit as they can, but there will still be new places, and special cases like Smugglers Notch that we will have to figure out. 

And this is nothing new. There are several resorts within the Wyndham system where there are two or three ways to own. Avenue Plaza For example is managed by Wyndham, but most of the units are owned  as floating, or event weeks, Some units are in the Wyndham points system and others yet are owned by Workdmark.  Depending on what you own the rules and procedures can be different. And if you are expecting one thing like a noon checkout, you are going to be surprised when you have to leave at 10:00. 

Paying extra for amenities on the properties is nothing new either

WAAM is not the boogy-man and the concept is not new. Its just another way for Wyndham bring new properties into our "clubs" with as little invested capital as possible and to make a ton of money doing so


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## jenmsc

ace2000 said:


> What is going on around here?



I don't know about the others.  I was trying to comment last night and somehow the same comment posted twice, so I deleted one for clarity.


----------



## vacationhopeful

Ron,
Nicely said in your above post.

jenmsc,
You are new to timesharing and Smuggs is new to Wyndham. That can cause the maximum number of confusion and push your stress level up to SUPER HIGH marker. I have been to many of the Wyndham resorts - not Smuggs yet - and there are some very consistant behaviors at Wyndham managed places.

The "staff" employees who provide services to the guests (you) are generally very nice and people-oriented. THEY want you to have a great time and are proud of their region of the country. While they MAY not know answers to your questions about dining and things to do, what they have control of (extra towels, clean unit, quiet neighbors) they are VERY helpful.

The "sales chain of command" is totally paid via commission checks. Yes, those parking pass people are SALES commissioned agents. They, and their chain of command, will do ANYTHING to make (take) your money. They have a morning meeting at 7AM to plan and rev up their sales jib. Every morning - 7AM - is their "ra,ra drum beating attack"  rally. They have a dress code and a personal appearance code (if you wear open toe sandals, your toenails have to be professional painted). If you miss your sales quota inside of a month, you have lost your rotation position and will be GONE soon. These are NOT rocket scientists or longterm employees - all they want is YOUR money to GET their commission check for the week. Many of us feel as though we have been slimed when we deal with sales .... every time. Nothing they say is truthful - it is crafted to get you to sign a sales contract. 

PS The front desk staff are not rocket scientists either - they are told, that question is answered by "Parking pass" people. It is not told to them, that is the (timeshare) SALES staff - sales to them, is the "Group events people" who are selling rooms for a wedding party or large family reunion.


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## rrlongwell

duplicate post deleted.


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## rrlongwell

ronparise said:


> This type of timesharing is nothing new.
> 
> I wondered how long it would take you and RRLonwell to hook up. I dont think he understands what WAAM is either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have not hooked up with anyone.  The main point of this thread is not WAAM it is the Wyndham sales practices at the resort in question.  Acutally, I am not a owner there nor do I visit there so I do not particularly care what they do.  I however, do believe the rentor knew or should of knew of what appears to be a practice of what was described by the orginal poster and should have disclosed this to the person renting the unit prior to the deal completing.  I know this thought would not sit well with the TUG rental group of posters.  Aggressive sales practices by Wyndham are not tied to just the WAAM program, they exist at National Harbor, and by reports, other Wyndham managed locations.  It is my understanding that Wyndham Sales tying something to the attend a sales pitch is not particularly knew either.
> 
> P.S. I own a WAAM property (Towers on the Grove) and was quite pleased with the Wyndham deal that was offered.  It was a small point contract that had a unit at Sands Ocean Club thrown in for free (for the purpose of PICing it at the same time) plus converting a fixed week for something like $89 dollar.  I do not think it was such a bad deal.  If I had not gone to the sales presentation, I would never of known of this deal.  I have had no other timeshare deal as good as this was for the WAAM property involved.
> 
> P.P.S.  I was not aware that Wyndham sales practice and requirements were under control of the resorts.  If I believe the rentor clan's self proclaimed spokesperson, I guess I may have been wrong.  Still would be interested in knowing the name of the rentor if it was a E-Bay related rental.
Click to expand...


----------



## csxjohn

jenmsc said:


> Lesson learned:  Timesharing is one crooked business.Thank you everyone for helping me dodge this bullet.  I want NOTHING to do with timeshares anymore!!



That's like saying everyone of a particular national origin is lazy.  You used this analogy in an earlier post.  It is simply not true as a whole but may very well be on a case by case basis.

You happened to run across one of the worst bunch of thieves in sales anywhere.

There are many timeshare experiences that don't involve these sales forces or anything that looks like them.

I know you're busy but don't write off timeshares all together until you look into it a little further.

I hope you have a great vaca with your family and we all want you get this worked out.

Good luck.


----------



## massvacationer

learnalot said:


> Jen,
> 
> If they were offering to GIVE you passes in exchange for attending a presentation, that would be fairly typical.  Also fairly typical would be deeply discounting the passes in exchange for attending.  But you should be able to purchase them outright without a sales presentation.
> 
> Also, FYI, depending on the setup at the resort, often the appt setter IS the front desk person.




I agree with the above post.  My understanding is that Wyndham Points Owners, staying at this resort while using their own points, get the pass for free.  

Folks who are renters or guests of Wyndham points owners can buy the pass for the full quoted price - OR they may attend a sales presentation (and meet the requirements for attending) and get the pass for a discount.  

I think it is that simple.

Here's the link to the page on the Smuggs website for Club Wyndham points owners:

http://www.smuggs.com/pages/universal/wyndham/


----------



## ace2000

rickandcindy23 said:


> Getting down to the issue, I called and talked to Wyndham VIP, and they told me there is no such policy for any guest to attend a presentation.  Period.  *No policy for a mandatory presentation at all, and all you need to do is pay the fee for using the facilities, and you get to use the facilities.  She even told me it was $129.*


 
As Cindy said, the cost for guests is $129.


----------



## tschwa2

Wyndham guests "may access Smugglers programs and facilities under the same terms and conditions as the general public."  Problem is no where on the website do they indicate what the terms and conditions are for the general public.  Who is the general public?  Is the general public someone coming for a day pass?  The 3 level of rentals from Smuggs include the activities.  The RCI page does quote the rate of $350 plus tax for the pass but indicates it is a special rate for RCI members exchanging into Smuggs.  Wyndham could claim that the only way the general public can access the facilities is by paying the fee and going on the tour (couples and qualified single adults only) and by paying the fee.


----------



## ace2000

tschwa2 said:


> Wyndham guests "may access Smugglers programs and facilities under the same terms and conditions as the general public."  Problem is no where on the website do they indicate what the terms and conditions are for the general public.  Who is the general public?  Is the general public someone coming for a day pass?  The 3 level of rentals from Smuggs include the activities.  *The RCI page does quote the rate of $350 plus tax for the pass but indicates it is a special rate for RCI members exchanging into Smuggs.  *Wyndham could claim that the only way the general public can access the facilities is by paying the fee and going on the tour (couples and qualified single adults only) and by paying the fee.


 
I don't want to go back and read, but is it possible that the OP was renting an RCI exchange from someone?  That would explain a lot of the confusion between the $350 rate and the $129 rate.  Or maybe I'm just confused.  

Yes, I know it's against the RCI rules.


----------



## ace2000

Beefnot said:


> I am dizzy.



This is one of the most confusing threads I've seen in awhile.


----------



## rickandcindy23

ace2000 said:


> I don't want to go back and read, but is it possible that the OP was renting an RCI exchange from someone?  That would explain a lot of the confusion between the $350 rate and the $129 rate.  Or maybe I'm just confused.
> 
> Yes, I know it's against the RCI rules.



Well, that could very well be, and it would make the entire conversation here a totally different one.  If exchangers are charged this fee, and Wyndham owners pay nothing at all. while Wyndham guests (guests of Wyndham owners using their points) pay only $129, it would seem that amount of money matches an exchange.  

Totally different.  But she still doesn't have to attend the presentation.  PERIOD.  She is probably talking to one of those concierge people who call and ask if you have questions, etc., and they led her to believe she would have to attend the presentation.  NOT SO, no matter how she got the week.  Unless she took a deal for the trip with sales tour included?    

So Jen needs to know that renting RCI exchanges to others as an RCI member is against the rules, and if she used her folks' membership to book it, or some other friend, maybe she shouldn't call Wyndham.  Wyndham won't be able to help at all, and that could get her friend or relative into trouble.  

She needs to re-think the call this morning, but I bet she already made the call.


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## tschwa2

No.  She rented from a Wyndham owner, who reserved with Wydham points.


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## ace2000

tschwa2 said:


> No.  She rented from a Wyndham owner, who reserved with Wydham points.




And how do you know this?  I don't see that in the original post.


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## Beefnot

jenmsc said:


> Lesson learned:  Timesharing is one crooked business.
> 
> Thank you everyone for helping me dodge this bullet.  I want NOTHING to do with timeshares anymore!!



i am assuming your husband is an investment banker, and as such, stretching your vacation dollars may not be all necessary.  Renting vacation homes for trave may be more acceptable to you. Now, should you want to keep your mind open to timesharing despite this horrific experience with Wyndham, I would submit to you that you consider Marriott, a trusted name with many fantastic locations, great quality, and perhaps the least aggressive sales practices.


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## jenmsc

This is what I have so far:

VIP services told me to speak to the resort manager or a supervisor at guest services.  By the time I got there they had already heard about my problem.  (Thank you Cindy and any others who may have called.)  The supervisor listened to my story, seemed sympathetic, and said she would take the problem up the line to see if there was anything she could do.  

She did tell me that everything at the resort CAN be purchased on an a-la-carte basis, including the waterpark access, extra pools, etc.  This was the first time I heard this from anyone and I don't see any place on the website where I could have gone to find this out.  (I only see that SOME things, like the euro-bungee, are a-la-carte for pass-holders and non-passholders alike).  The people at owner services never mentioned anything about a-la-carte options, telling me that if I wanted access to these things AT ALL that I MUST purchase a Smuggs pass (and take the tour).  This person at guest services also confirmed that the policy at Smuggs is that if you are a "guest" and you want to purchase a Smuggs pass, that the tour IS required.  So for those who were curious, my headache is, apparently, NOT the result of an overzealous salesperson looking for a commission by lying.  This is a verified Smuggs policy that all your guests would also be subject to.

After talking to this person at guest services and mulling it over, my only complaint at this point is that if Smuggs is going to have a policy like this, when they get a call from a prospective renter who is making every effort to do their due diligence, as I did, they need to be prepared to explain the policy and the amenities options available to guests thoroughly.  Certainly owners should know about the policy and advise renters about it, but if Smuggs can change policies like this at their discretion (which, it seems, happened here), I can easily see how a Wyndham points owner who rents many different Wyndham resorts, could be renting and be unaware of this unique policy change at Smuggs.  

Finally, since some people asked, I rented from someone who advertised on Craigslist.  This person is in the business of renting the points of others, booking weeks, marketing them and setting up reservations.  Before renting, I checked this person's business affiliations, called business and client references and found positive mention of their service online on this board and others.  I don't want to give them a bad rap online, because I honestly think this person is acting in good faith and did not know about this policy.  This person I am renting from did call Smuggs to complain when I told her about this, but she got no further than I did with owner services.

Stay tuned for a final report...


----------



## ace2000

So, what's the price for the pass?  And can you confirm that the owner was using Wyndham points to book your reservation?  You could see this if they sent you the email confirmation and/or your guest certificate (the one with Wyndham letterhead not the person you rented from).


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## Stricky

Part of the confusion with Smuggs these days is how the ownership is structured right now. 

Wyndham bought the unsold units from Smuggs about a  1 1/2 year ago.

Smuggs (prior sold units) have many ownership types from weeks to seasonal to full year owners.

The resort (pools, skiing, restaraunts, camps) are still owned and run by Smuggs (not Wyndham).

You also have some units that are RCI points or RCI weeks.

I own a few weeks there and if I ask a questions I have to explain my ownership 3 times before I feel like I get the real answer since there are different rules/rates for different ownerships.

I head up to Smuggs this weekend and will enjoy sitting at the top of the mountain looking over God's creatioon. However, if I were you I would look at DVC these days.


----------



## ace2000

Stricky said:


> Part of the confusion with Smuggs these days is how the ownership is structured right now.
> 
> Wyndham bought the unsold units from Smuggs about a  1 1/2 year ago.
> 
> Smuggs (prior sold units) have many ownership types from weeks to seasonal to full year owners.
> 
> The resort (pools, skiing, restaraunts, camps) are still owned and run by Smuggs (not Wyndham).
> 
> You also have some units that are RCI points or RCI weeks.
> 
> I own a few weeks there and if I ask a questions I have to explain my ownership 3 times before I feel like I get the real answer since there are different rules/rates for different ownerships.
> 
> I head up to Smuggs this weekend and will enjoy sitting at the top of the mountain looking over God's creatioon. However, if I were you I would look at DVC these days.


 
Until the OP provides some clarification, we're all going to be confused.


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## jenmsc

Beefnot:  He is not an investment banker.  We make enough to purchase a timeshare, but when I calculated the final price of booking through Smuggs direct, after taxes, fees and Smuggs pass the whopping total was over $6000. We both thought it was a crummy deal, so I kept digging for something better.  I don't believe in flushing money down the toilet.  

Personally, what I see here is that timeshares are rather complicated contracts.  What you ultimately "get" for your money is subject to many terms and conditions that can be changed at the sole discretion of whatever corporate entity or entities you are dealing with (my story being a perfect case in point).  In concept, I don't like signing contracts that are written by corporations, where the terms cannot be negotiated or modified.  When I buy something, I want to know WHAT I am getting and I want to know that the package of rights I am buying at the time I sign can't be changed without my consent.  I just don't see that happening with any timeshare model.


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## jenmsc

Clarification:  I am renting from a Wyndham Points owner, NOT an RCI member.  I checked this fact and checked that this reservation could legitimately be rented out to a guest at the Wyndham desk before signing anything.

The person at guest services I spoke to today did not confirm what the guest price is for a pass.  I did report the discrepant prices I was hearing ($363 or $129).  I am still waiting to hear back from her.


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## ace2000

jenmsc said:


> Clarification:  I am renting from a Wyndham Points owner, NOT an RCI member.


 
Sorry to make this more confusing for you, but a Wyndham points owner is almost always a RCI member.  It's built into their membership.  

Did you get an official guest certificate from the person you rented from?


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## Beefnot

jenmsc said:


> Beefnot:  He is not an investment banker.  We make enough to purchase a timeshare, but when I calculated the final price of booking through Smuggs direct, after taxes, fees and Smuggs pass the whopping total was over $6000. We both thought it was a crummy deal, so I kept digging for something better.  I don't believe in flushing money down the toilet.
> 
> Personally, what I see here is that timeshares are rather complicated contracts.  What you ultimately "get" for your money is subject to many terms and conditions that can be changed at the sole discretion of whatever corporate entity or entities you are dealing with (my story being a perfect case in point).  In concept, I don't like signing contracts that are written by corporations, where the terms cannot be negotiated or modified.  When I buy something, I want to know WHAT I am getting and I want to know that the package of rights I am buying at the time I sign can't be changed without my consent.  I just don't see that happening with any timeshare model.



Gotcha, and to think I thought that the only 90-hour grinders were investment bankers or entrepreneurs.

If you want to absolutely know what you are getting that cannot be changed, consider purchasing a fixed week--no points, no floating, no nothing--and at a resort that is already sold out (so no having to deal with sales shenanigans).  You know what you are getting and it ain't changing.


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## Beefnot

ace2000 said:


> Sorry to make this more confusing for you, but a Wyndham points owner is almost always a RCI member.  It's built into their membership.
> 
> Did you get an official guest certificate from the person you rented from?



With all this hubbub raised with Wyndham and the fact that she wrote:



> I checked this fact and checked that this reservation could legitimately be rented out to a guest at the Wyndham desk before signing anything.



I would be pretty confident that she has a legitimate rental reservation from a Wyndham owner, and is not renting from an exchanger.


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## learnalot

jenmsc said:


> This is what I have so far:
> 
> VIP services told me to speak to the resort manager or a supervisor at guest services.  By the time I got there they had already heard about my problem.  (Thank you Cindy and any others who may have called.)  The supervisor listened to my story, seemed sympathetic, and said she would take the problem up the line to see if there was anything she could do.
> 
> She did tell me that everything at the resort CAN be purchased on an a-la-carte basis, including the waterpark access, extra pools, etc.  This was the first time I heard this from anyone and I don't see any place on the website where I could have gone to find this out.  (I only see that SOME things, like the euro-bungee, are a-la-carte for pass-holders and non-passholders alike).  The people at owner services never mentioned anything about a-la-carte options, telling me that if I wanted access to these things AT ALL that I MUST purchase a Smuggs pass (and take the tour).  This person at guest services also confirmed that the policy at Smuggs is that if you are a "guest" and you want to purchase a Smuggs pass, that the tour IS required.  So for those who were curious, my headache is, apparently, NOT the result of an overzealous salesperson looking for a commission by lying.  This is a verified Smuggs policy that all your guests would also be subject to.
> 
> Finally, since some people asked, I rented from someone who advertised on Craigslist.  This person is in the business of renting the points of others, booking weeks, marketing them and setting up reservations.  Before renting, I checked this person's business affiliations, called business and client references and found positive mention of their service online on this board and others.  I don't want to give them a bad rap online, because I honestly think this person is acting in good faith and did not know about this policy.  This person I am renting from did call Smuggs to complain when I told her about this, but she got no further than I did with owner services.
> 
> Stay tuned for a final report...



Jen,

Sorry this has been such a hassle for you.  For what it's worth, it's always been clear that you were thorough and diligent all along the way, but having trouble getting accurate information. 

As Ron said, fees for certain amenity access are not unheard of - although also not the norm for Wyndham.  What IS unheard of is a mandatory tour in order to pay the activity fee.  

Having dealt with Wyndham for a number of years now, I have developed a healthy degree of skepticism about the information provided if it is linked in any way to sales (which any mandatory tour situation is).  In a nutshell, typical m.o. is to give a tiny kernel of truth wrapped in a mountain of b.s.  It is this tactic that rings an alarm in my head when they tell you that in order for a "guest" to purchase an activities pass they must take a tour.  My suspicion, backed up only by hunch and having observed this pattern, is that "guest" in that context actually refers to people who are not staying at the resort.  That would fit their profile.  Just pointing out the significance of semantics when dealing with Wyndham and anything tangentally related to their sales arm.  It might be necessary to be VERY specific in your wording and require the same of them.  I would also advise that you communicate with them by email rather than telephone  for the same reason. 
Sad and annoying but true, in my experience.  Thanks for posting and making us aware of their particular shenanigans here.  Please update us as you are able.


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## jenmsc

ace2000 said:


> Sorry to make this more confusing for you, but a Wyndham points owner is almost always a RCI member.  It's built into their membership.
> 
> Did you get an official guest certificate from the person you rented from?



I apologize for the lingo error.  The person used Wyndham points and is a Wyndham member.  The reservations was not booked through RCI as an exchange (I know these can't be rented).  

Yes, I got a guest certificate.


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## tschwa2

The a la carte fees for the general public are ridiculous.



> A limited number of day guests may use the Mountainside Pools and Waterslides for the regular rate of $44 per day for adults; $34 per day for children 17 & under; 6 & under FREE with a paying adult. Vermont residents receive a 50% discount with valid ID.



This fee lets you go to just Mountainside for the day.  It is a regular size pool.  One decent sized water slide and one kiddie water slide and a 12-18 in splash park for children under 4.





picture from smuggs.com

It looks bigger than it is.  Splash cove upper area.  Water slide center.  Pool with kiddie slide bottom right.


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## geekette

jenmsc said:


> When I buy something, I want to know WHAT I am getting and I want to know that the package of rights I am buying at the time I sign can't be changed without my consent.  I just don't see that happening with any timeshare model.



How many ts models have you researched to reach this conclusion?  

How many other contracts in your life do you have where there will be no changes without your consent?  Certainly not the case with cable, internet, phone, even property taxes (I'll call that one an implied contract).  

While you are free to contract only with entities who will never change their terms, that will leave you a very small pool of businesses with which to contract for their goods or services.


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## jenmsc

A "limited number of guests"??? So theoretically, if they reached their quota of day-visitors, I, as a guest of a points member, whose rights to purchase the amenities are no different from the general public, am not guaranteed the opportunity to purchase this amenity if they have reached their quota for the day.

This is different than telling someone that  they can ALWAYS pay an a-la-carte rate.

Aaargh.  I don't care what the darn amenity pass costs OR what the a-la-carte rate is.  Renting is a great deal vs. going straight through the resort, and I'm happy to pay Smuggs an extra fee if they feel its appropriate and this is what they have negotiated with their owners.  I just wish there was a relatively clear way to get an ANSWER to the simple questions (1) what does the pass cost me as a wyndham points owner's guest, (2) what is required of me to purchase this thing, and (3) what are my other pay-options if I want to use each amenity?

What we've gotten so far is different answers from different people at Smuggs and Wyndham, and then this added confusion on the website. 

Still waiting...


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## jenmsc

geekette: You are being pedantic.  I am probably subject to hundreds of contracts with contain provisions that allow corporate entities to screw me in ways that are hard to envision at sign up.  Most of these are nonnegotiable and unavoidable contracts.  How many options are there to shop around for cable?  If I called any one of them and said hey, I don't like the boilerplate in section 3.7.2 I'd like you to accept this change my lawyer added, would they?  No.  And its pretty hard to function these days without internet, so we all just suck it up.  

Anyway, its pretty easy to dump one cable/satellite/phone company for another.  The negotiating power is in the power to walk away cost-free.

I can choose to not buy a house, but I DO have a vote in my town when budget issues arise that will impact property taxes.

On the continuum from necessary to luxury, a timeshare is a luxury.  There are plenty of competing products (hotels, house rentals, etc) where the terms are simpler and the duration of the obligation ends after the term of the vacation (less can change over that time period). Finally, it costs money to walk away from the timeshare contract you sign, and selling your timeshare for pennies to someone else doesn't hurt Wyndham at all, as long as they continue to get your maintenance fees.  The cable company will fight for your business.     

Maybe a timeshare saves money, but is it worth it??  I don't know.  I think its hard to envision what kind of rights you're giving away when you sign a long term contract like this and the resort has the ability to do so much to change things on you in the name of profit.  I'm not seeing the value in buying.


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## brigechols

jenmsc said:


> A "limited number of guests"??? So theoretically, if they reached their quota of day-visitors, I, as a guest of a points member, whose rights to purchase the amenities are no different from the general public, am not guaranteed the opportunity to purchase this amenity if they have reached their quota for the day.


 Bingo! As a guest of a Wyndham points member, you are entitled to the condo lodging and access to the Courtside pool. Period. Full stop.



jenmsc said:


> I don't care what the darn amenity pass costs OR what the a-la-carte rate is.  Renting is a great deal vs. going straight through the resort, and I'm happy to pay Smuggs an extra fee if they feel its appropriate and this is what they have negotiated with their owners.



Really? It does not appear that renting from a Wyndham points owner gives you access to all resort amenities whereas going straight through the resort would provide that access. 

From your posts, it seems that you do indeed care what the darn amenity pass costs. The cost is $x plus 120 minutes of you and your husband's time.

You already have the answer to your first two questions and a partial answer to the third question.

 (1) what does the pass cost me as a wyndham points owner's guest? $x plus 120 minutes of you and your husband's time

(2) what is required of me to purchase this thing? $x plus 120 minutes of you and your husband's time

(3) what are my other pay-options if I want to use each amenity?

A limited number of day guests may use the Mountainside Pools and Waterslides for the regular rate of $44 per day for adults; $34 per day for children 17 & under; 6 & under FREE with a paying adult. Vermont residents receive a 50% discount with valid ID. 

I checked on the Smuggs website and an adult family pass is $519 and a youth family pass is $319.


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## SkiTee

geekette said:


> You're getting worked up for nothing.  Marriage = Financial Interdependence.
> Seriously doubt an 18 year old would be invited.  They also discriminate against those who they don't think make enough money to afford the product.  so what?
> 
> I would be shocked if there were laws about this!!!
> 
> It's a sales ploy, that is all.  You are not required to attend. Yes, you want that pass, but you are not REQUIRED to do anything.  So exactly how a law would even be in play is beyond me.



I agree.  I can understand that one spouse might be the one to purchase a car (usually my husband does this but I did all the legwork on our last car)  but it seems really, really unlikely that one spouse would spend so much money on a vacation ownership unit without both spouses in attendance to make the decision.


----------



## jenmsc

brigechols said:


> Bingo! As a guest of a Wyndham points member, you are entitled to the condo lodging and access to the Courtside pool. Period. Full stop.
> 
> 
> Really? It does not appear that renting from a Wyndham points owner gives you access to all resort amenities whereas going straight through the resort would provide that access.
> 
> From your posts, it seems that you do indeed care what the darn amenity pass costs. The cost is $x plus 120 minutes of you and your husband's time.
> 
> You already have the answer to your first two questions and a partial answer to the third question.
> 
> (1) what does the pass cost me as a wyndham points owner's guest? $x plus 120 minutes of you and your husband's time
> 
> (2) what is required of me to purchase this thing? $x plus 120 minutes of you and your husband's time
> 
> (3) what are my other pay-options if I want to use each amenity?
> 
> A limited number of day guests may use the Mountainside Pools and Waterslides for the regular rate of $44 per day for adults; $34 per day for children 17 & under; 6 & under FREE with a paying adult. Vermont residents receive a 50% discount with valid ID.
> 
> I checked on the Smuggs website and an adult family pass is $519 and a youth family pass is $319.



Wyndham Owners Services says the Smuggs Pass costs guests of Wyndham points members $363 plus tour.  A supervisor at VIP who spoke to Cindy (see above) told her it was $129, no tour.  

I have gotten a lot of inconsistent responses from Smuggs and Wyndham.

The first story I got from Smuggs was $363 plus my presence at a 120 minute tour.  After I booked, the cost changed to $363, my presence AND my husband's presence, and the cost of a babysitter or camp for my kids.  Big change.

My reservation confirmation reads "A fee may be associated with some of the resort amenities and activities. Please contact the resort for more details."

It does not say a TOUR may be required. A fee is a fee.  Money, not time.

Neither my reservation confirmation nor anyone I spoke initially to told me that I am guaranteed the right to purchase all amenities a-la-carte.  This person I spoke to today says I CAN, but the written policy re: the Mountainside pools says the number of passes for the public are limited.  Who is right?

Is the right to purchase a "public" pass also subject to limited availability in order to limit crowds?  This is the case with the Mountainside Pools and Waterslides, so does that policy extend to all amenities?  The supervisor I spoke to today made it sound like availability is no issue, but the written policy with respect to at least one amenity (Mountainside pools) is different.  

Furthermore, when I spoke to Smuggs before booking, the option of purchasing a higher priced but similar pass without the tour was not offered.  The option of paying a-la-carte was not mentioned.  I was told I had 2 choices (1) $363 plus Tour for Smuggs Pass amenities or (2) nothing but the pool next to my townhouse.  When I argued about the spouse-tour requirement and told them it was a huge problem for me, nobody mentioned that I had any other options (a-la-carte or a higher priced public pass).  This was her final answer, even after supposedly talking to some supervisor in owner services.  This answer was, in fact, incorrect.

Should extensive online digging and contacting management really be necessary to answer these questions?  Especially when the reservation says its all a question of extra fees and all I have to do is contact the resort to find out what the additional amenities fees are?  

I am hopeful that they will still do something about this for me, and that they will improve their process for future renters, but I'm not happy that its taken so much work to figure out something that should be straightforward.

.


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## am1

SkiTee said:


> I can understand that one spouse might be the one to purchase a car (usually my husband does this but I did all the legwork on our last car)  but it seems really, really unlikely that one spouse would spend so much money on a vacation ownership unit without both spouses in attendance to make the decision.



It is the opposite as well.  One spouse buys and then when tells the other it is rescinded.


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## jenmsc

I received a call from a director at Wyndham.  He was very professional and promised to look into my problem individually to resolve it and also seemed interested in my case in order to review the process to make sure they are doing the best they can to communicate the amenities policy effectively to both owners and renters in situations where individuals are renting from Wyndham points owners.  He was not yet familiar with the some of the details of amenities pricing at Smuggs for the public or guests, like the public pass mentioned above or a-la-carte options and whether those are available for purchase in limited numbers.  He is researching all this and has promised me a call tomorrow.


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## brigechols

Jenmsc,

Renting a timeshare generally requires basic due diligence (i.e., verify the rental is legitimate) when you rent from a knowledgeable owner. Unfortunately, it requires more work when renting from someone who doesn't know exactly what they are renting.

The person who listed the rental on Craigslist knew or should have known that guests would not receive the complimentary SmuggsPass provided to ClubWyndham owners. That information should have been spelled out in your *rental agreement*. Also, the *rental agreement *should have specified the rental only covered lodging and access to courtside pool adjacent to the condo. The *rental agreement *should have directed you to contact the resort to obtain information and pricing for activities and amenities.

Upon contacting the resort, they probably offer the SmuggsPass if you qualify for the tour. That qualifier usually doesn't register with persons not savvy about timeshare presentations. A resort will not invite guests on a tour and offer "gifts" or "discount packages" if you are underage (or otherwise legally incapacitated to enter into a contract), do not meet their income requirements, or married and both spouses are not present. When the resort finds out that you do not qualify for a tour, if there is some way for them to still profit from your presence, they will do it. Smuggs can sell you a pass for the full price if you do not qualify for the tour. In fact, you can go to their website and purchase the pass online.

I look forward to reading about Wyndham's response to this situation.


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## tschwa2

I think the problem is that Wyndham does know what it entails and apparently doesn't have it in writing anywhere so at this point it is up to individuals interpretation.  I believe that although Wyndham took over as manager a year or so ago, reservations from Wyndham owners using points is much more recent.  Passes are only required in the Summer and Winter when extra amenities are offered and this is the first time we have seen anyone having problems or challenging Wyndham's position based on hearing different things from different employee's while doing the due diligence thing.  

Like the issue of additional fees to exchangers- the main problem in my eye is not that Wyndham requires the tour or requires both co-habitating adults to tour in order to purchase an amenities pass but it is the fact that the requirements are not upfront and easy to locate on the website or through Wyndham's website, etc.  Apperently since so many Wyndham and Smugglers Notch are having trouble to the bottom it is not properly documented anywhere even in an internal policy manual but probably stems back to this is what I was told or this is how I understood it to be.


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## SOS8260456

From this thread, I can easily see how the original owner did not know about this policy.  No one here can get a straight answer even as to the exact cost ($350, $369 or $129).  Wyndham even has to look into it.  

From the sounds of it, it looks like both parties to this rental did do their research, but then sales comes along and stirs up a hornet's nest.

I don't think that the person renting the reservation did anything wrong and I don't think that the person renting the reservation didn't do all of her due diligence.  I think this is a totally unique situation because it is Smuggs.  As I already stated a lot of different things have been posted, need the tour, don't need the tour, $350, then $129, the $369 and then ala carte.  And several of these responses came from people who talked to people at Wyndham.  What a crazy situation!!!

I am just glad that the OP is getting this straightened out now,rather than upon arrival. That would be a heck of a way to start off a vacation.

I for one will be stearing totally clear of any Smuggs reservations.


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## brigechols

The SmuggsPass cost for an RCI exchanger is $343 per week plus tax and listed here. 

Surely, the Wyndham owner is familiar with the rites of passage required to obtain a parking pass.  This thread convinced me that the Wyndham owner should have known about the policy. After someone posted this link, curiousity got the best of me and I called Smuggs. Spoke with Kelly in Owner Services and asked about what amenitites were available to guests renting from Club Wyndham owners. She promptly said, "condo lodging and access to the courtside pool." I asked about availability of other amenities and she quoted a price for the Mountainside pool day pass and the Fun Zone day pass. She also indicated a discount SmuggsPass was available if the guests qualify for a tour. I asked about obtaining the SmuggsPass if your spouse was unavailable and Kelly said the non-discounted pass could be purchased.


----------



## Beefnot

brigechols said:


> The SmuggsPass cost for an RCI exchanger is $343 per week plus tax and listed here.
> 
> Surely, the Wyndham owner is familiar with the rites of passage required to obtain a parking pass.  This thread convinced me that the Wyndham owner should have known about the policy. After someone posted this link, curiousity got the best of me and I called Smuggs. Spoke with Kelly in Owner Services and asked about what amenitites were available to guests renting from Club Wyndham owners. She promptly said, "condo lodging and access to the courtside pool." I asked about availability of other amenities and she quoted a price for the Mountainside pool day pass and the Fun Zone day pass. She also indicated a discount SmuggsPass was available if the guests qualify for a tour. I asked about obtaining the SmuggsPass if your spouse was unavailable and Kelly said the non-discounted pass could be purchased.



And your response underscores the problem.  Sure, the answer you received sounds straightforward, but why then were the responses so varied from Wyndham?  So if Wyndham does not consistently know about its own policy, why is it so doggone easy for the owner to know?


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## tschwa2

So an RCI exchanger can purchase a weeks Smuggs pass for $350 with no qualifying tour and the guest or a deeded week owner can purchase a Smuggs pass for $350 with no tour.    The guest/renter of a Wyndham owner can purchase a Smuggs pass for the week for $350 by taking a qualifying tour or paying how much for a regular tour.

The OP was told that the $350 was the discounted pass rate.


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## timeos2

tschwa2 said:


> The a la carte fees for the general public are ridiculous.
> .



Isn't that the truth. Here they promote the resort based on all these features but then most have to pay - and pay plenty - to be able to use them! The ultimate rip off. It has never appealed to us and that is one big reason.


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## SOS8260456

I am a Wyndham owner and I have no clue on what miscellaneous charges are added to RCI exchangers at a particular resort unless I am exchanging there.  Most Wyndham owners benefit more by using their points within the Wyndham system and never deal with RCI at all.  There are even some Wyndham owners who's exchange company is II, so they would have no clue what RCI's policies are.

I strongly feel that it sounds like both parties did all they could do up front to get clear answers and then Wyndham added the required sales tour and royally stirred up the pot.

The only thing that I feel the owner can be faulted with is not doing all these phone calls that the OP is doing.  But, for all we know, they could be doing phone calls also.

Too bad the renter didn't live within driving distance of the place, then they could keep the unit in their name and just drive over and register themselves as a guest, if they had room for one extra name on the reservation.

I added my displeaser with this tactic both with a phone call and an email.  If this doesn't get resolved to her satisfaction, then Wyndham really doesn't care about customer satisfaction.


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## jenmsc

brigechols said:


> The SmuggsPass cost for an RCI exchanger is $343 per week plus tax and listed here.
> 
> Surely, the Wyndham owner is familiar with the rites of passage required to obtain a parking pass.  This thread convinced me that the Wyndham owner should have known about the policy. After someone posted this link, curiousity got the best of me and I called Smuggs. Spoke with Kelly in Owner Services and asked about what amenitites were available to guests renting from Club Wyndham owners. She promptly said, "condo lodging and access to the courtside pool." I asked about availability of other amenities and she quoted a price for the Mountainside pool day pass and the Fun Zone day pass. She also indicated a discount SmuggsPass was available if the guests qualify for a tour. I asked about obtaining the SmuggsPass if your spouse was unavailable and Kelly said the non-discounted pass could be purchased.



One of two things happened here. (1) This person at owner services knows a lot more than the person I spoke to (I spoke to Laura, not  Kelly)  *OR* (2) The stink I just made there caused someone in upper management to tell owner services exactly what to say when they are asked this question, because the words "if you qualify" were never included in what I heard.  Lots of people at Smuggs know about my complaint by now, so it does not surprise me that they have already made an effort to get this right.    

Re: the point about having all this spelled out in the rental agreement:  Sounds fair, except that Wyndham can change these policies.  Do owners receive automatic notification when Smuggs decides to add another restriction?  Is it reasonable for an owner to have to chase down the newest Wyndham documents every time they rent?  I don't know.

Should the rental agreement direct the renter to call Wyndham about amenities pricing?  Sure.  That protects the owner, but the value of that to the renter is only as good as the answer you get from whoever answers the phone when you call.   

I am terrified to ask about the "rites of passage required to get a parking pass"...


----------



## SOS8260456

jenmsc said:


> I am terrified to ask about the "rites of passage required to get a parking pass"...



:rofl: 

Since my husband and I rarely travel together, I have been spared the parking pass issues.  Either that or they have black listed me from sales tours.  

I am glad it sounds like it will work it.  I am also glad that you understand how difficult it would be for a Wyndham owner to have dealt with this issue up front.


----------



## jenmsc

SOS8260456 said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Since my husband and I rarely travel together, I have been spared the parking pass issues.  Either that or they have black listed me from sales tours.
> 
> I am glad it sounds like it will work it.  I am also glad that you understand how difficult it would be for a Wyndham owner to have dealt with this issue up front.



Are you telling me that if my husband comes with me we will have to do a sales tour if we want to park on the resort?

Does anyone know a lawyer who can do a divorce in under 2 weeks?


----------



## tschwa2

> Are you telling me that if my husband comes with me we will have to do a sales tour if we want to park on the resort?
> 
> Does anyone know a lawyer who can do a divorce in under 2 weeks?



A divorce wouldn't help.  Wyndham doesn't care if you are married.  If you are cohabitating, they want you both there.   Also you don't have to put your kids in camp.  They usually let your kids attend if that is the only way to get you to come.




> The a la carte fees for the general public are ridiculous.
> .
> Isn't that the truth. Here they promote the resort based on all these features but then most have to pay - and pay plenty - to be able to use them! The ultimate rip off. It has never appealed to us and that is one big reason.



The RCI Smuggs pass is fairly high but we had 3 adults and 3 kids.  With an exchange fee of $189 and a 21 tpu cost (averaged out to $20 per point) $420+$360 (Smuggs pass) we still paid under $1000 for mid July week in a premium unit.  Renting directly from the resort it would have been $4000.  I certainly thought $1000 (plus $30 for internet and $140 for 2 days of camp) it was certainly a good value. If you are in one of the premium areas with an additional seperate pool and don't have small children you wouldn't need the Smuggs pass at all.  At $620 inclusive of RCI exchange fee and tpu cost (more or less depending on tpu cost) it is a great place.  This is the reason that the summer weeks deposited in RCI are usually taken 12-18 months out despite the 1 in 4 rule as a resort.


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## am1

jenmsc said:


> One of two things happened here. (1) This person at owner services knows a lot more than the person I spoke to (I spoke to Laura, not  Kelly)  *OR* (2) The stink I just made there caused someone in upper management to tell owner services exactly what to say when they are asked this question, because the words "if you qualify" were never included in what I heard.  Lots of people at Smuggs know about my complaint by now, so it does not surprise me that they have already made an effort to get this right.



A few more things could have happened.


----------



## Sandi Bo

*Parking Pass routine*



jenmsc said:


> Are you telling me that if my husband comes with me we will have to do a sales tour if we want to park on the resort?
> 
> Does anyone know a lawyer who can do a divorce in under 2 weeks?



I'm not sure the parking pass routine itself has been explained here and for someone who has not been to a Wyndham resort, the references may not make sense.

At most (if not all) Wyndham resorts the standard routine is to checkin at the front desk and then be directed to a 2nd desk for a parking pass.  The 2nd desk is where they hit you up (often quite aggressively) to attend a sales presentation, thus the talk about the parking passes.

I am sorry you have had such a difficult time arranging your plans for Smugglers Notch. We stayed there in December and had a wonderful time. As an owner, I had NO IDEA the pass was such a big deal. It gave us a slight discount at the slopes and stores, in December that's all it was good for for us.

Wyndham resort management (checkin desk, housekeeping, etc) and sales are 2 separate operations. My experiences have been great with the resort management. Once you get past the sales presentation issues, whether it's your unique to Smugglers Notch pass issue and/or getting your parking pass you should have a wonderful time at Smuggs.


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## rrlongwell

Sandi Bo said:


> ... Wyndham resort management (checkin desk, housekeeping, etc) and sales are 2 separate operations. My experiences have been great with the resort management. Once you get past the sales presentation issues, whether it's your unique to Smugglers Notch pass issue and/or getting your parking pass you should have a wonderful time at Smuggs.



Just for information, I just checked the Wyndham site, Smugglers is not a Wyndham Managed Resort according to the site.  Therefore, in this particular case, the Wyndham management group would have nothing to say about how Wyndham Sales conducts its business as it relates to tying terms and conditions of facility use to attending a sales presentation.  Presumably, Wyndham Sales has a contract with the Resort that gives them the right to sell the units from their location etc.  In another words, Resort Management may not get any vote whatsoever regarding issues relating to Wyndham Sales in light of the Sales Agreement.  Please note, even though Resort Management has been made aware of the problem, apparently, the requirment still stands.  Please note, according to the recent post on the status.  It was a Wyndham Director that called OP and not the resort Management company.

Just as a sideline, it appears Wyndham Sales does have the right to waive the requirment to attend a sales presention.  A earlier post indicated that the requirement had a "if qualified" provision.  According to other posts on TUG, it appears one of the grounds to make a person or couple ineligable for a Sales Presentaiton is the fact that they do not like them.  I guess that means the good news today is that Wyndham Sales likes the OP and her husband.

If the Wyndham Director is actually one of the Trust related positions, it is extremely unlikely that this director can actually do a whole lot.  This is a decsion apparant made/controlled by the sales department at the Resort who appear to have control over Wyndham Owner's guests right to pay for use of the amenities or not.

I do not understand why Wyndham has not thrown in the towel in your specfic case.  It does not appear you are a real good candidate for buying a timeshare from them on this trip.


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## ronparise

timeos2 said:


> Isn't that the truth. Here they promote the resort based on all these features but then most have to pay - and pay plenty - to be able to use them! The ultimate rip off. It has never appealed to us and that is one big reason.



Just like costco..I have to pay for a membership and then they have the nerve to charge me for the food when I get in there..What a rip off...  

Or maybe a better analogy would be Wyndhams Bonnet Creek. They advertise "Within the Gates of Disney"  but no one expects that admission to the parks is included with your purchase. Even folks that pay the big bucks to own at a Disney resort expect to have to pay to enter the parks. dont they?

Come on John,,You dont expect golf included, when a golf course is close by,  or lift tickets when you go to a ski resort. These things are extras. just like this Smuggs stuff.  

When I rent in New Orleans, I advertise:  "The streetcar ( "a streetcar named desire") stops right in front of the building. Park your car and forget it, Valet parking available, or better yet, leave your car at home"  No one expects that the valet parking and a streetcar pass is free, 

What this thread teaches me, and anyone that might consider renting their timeshares  is that they should specialize. You cant know everything about everything so dont even try,,,Pick a market and pick a resort or two. and know everything there


----------



## ronparise

brigechols said:


> The person who listed the rental on Craigslist knew or should have known that guests would not receive the complimentary SmuggsPass provided to ClubWyndham owners. That information should have been spelled out in your *rental agreement*. Also, the *rental agreement *should have specified the rental only covered lodging and access to courtside pool adjacent to the condo. The *rental agreement *should have directed you to contact the resort to obtain information and pricing for activities and amenities.



I have done a fair number of rentals, When I rent in Orlando, I dont add a line to a rental agreement to say  "Extra fees may apply if you choose to visit a Disney Park in the area"  So I wouldnt see the need to specify that "extra charges may apply for extra services" at Smuggs

When I rent  I  dont specify that you may be charged to park your car, or play golf, or dock your boat. I dont even say that this is a non smoking property,  Most timeshare units have full kitchens, but Ive never seen the need to include a line in my agreement that says you have to provide your own food. Some things are just understood. and if  you think you have considered and included all possibilities, something new will come up to bite you in the backside. I find it better to say nothing about extra charges than to risk missing one

Unless the guy that made this reservation and rented it said  that "all the on site entertainment was included" in his agreement, I dont think he made a mistake  by saying nothing


----------



## rrlongwell

ronparise said:


> Just like costco..I have to pay for a membership and then they have the nerve to charge me for the food when I get in there..What a rip off...
> 
> Or maybe a better analogy would be Wyndhams Bonnet Creek. They advertise "Within the Gates of Disney"  but no one expects that admission to the parks is included with your purchase. Even folks that pay the big bucks to own at a Disney resort expect to have to pay to enter the parks. dont they?
> 
> Come on John,,You dont expect golf included, when a golf course is close by,  or lift tickets when you go to a ski resort. These things are extras. just like this Smuggs stuff.
> 
> When I rent in New Orleans, I advertise:  "The streetcar ( "a streetcar named desire") stops right in front of the building. Park your car and forget it, Valet parking available, or better yet, leave your car at home"  No one expects that the valet parking and a streetcar pass is free,
> 
> What this thread teaches me, and anyone that might consider renting their timeshares  is that they should specialize. You cant know everything about everything so dont even try,,,Pick a market and pick a resort or two. and know everything there



I did not realize you were such a big advocate of trying things to the use of amenities.  I would suggest your examples are not appropriate comparisons.  Although they are a very very very good defense of Wyndham Sales.  Not all restrications on use have to be monatary.


----------



## brigechols

ronparise said:


> I have done a fair number of rentals, When I rent in Orlando, I dont add a line to a rental agreement to say  "Extra fees may apply if you choose to visit a Disney Park in the area"  So I wouldnt see the need to specify that "extra charges may apply for extra services" at Smuggs


The comparison to Disney doesn't make sense. In this case, the rights and privileges of a Club Wyndham owner do not transfer to the renter. As an owner, I would spell out that information in the rental agreement.



ronparise said:


> When I rent  I  dont specify that you may be charged to park your car, or play golf, or dock your boat. I dont even say that this is a non smoking property,


  If I don't have to pay for parking as an owner at the timeshare and the renter has to pay for parking, I will certainly spell that out in the rental agreement. 



ronparise said:


> Most timeshare units have full kitchens, but Ive never seen the need to include a line in my agreement that says you have to provide your own food.


 :hysterical: :rofl: :hysterical: 



ronparise said:


> I find it better to say nothing about extra charges than to risk missing one


 Do you even use rental agreements? Not the way I choose to conduct business. YMMV.


----------



## learnalot

ronparise said:


> Just like costco..I have to pay for a membership and then they have the nerve to charge me for the food when I get in there..What a rip off...
> 
> Or maybe a better analogy would be Wyndhams Bonnet Creek. They advertise "Within the Gates of Disney"  but no one expects that admission to the parks is included with your purchase. Even folks that pay the big bucks to own at a Disney resort expect to have to pay to enter the parks. dont they?



Ron,

I understand your point but agree only to a certain extent.  Your examples, though characteristically clever and witty, miss the mark somewhat in their scope. If we are using Bonnet Creek as an example, the more apt scenario here would not relate to admission charges for Disney, but to charges to use the facilities at BC, such as the pools and lazy rivers.  To extend the analogy as far as you did, of course guests must provide their own food for the kitchen, but in order to USE the stove, open the refrigerator or flush the toilet, they will be charged...price gouging a la Thenardier from Les Mis...

The biggest kicker in the Smuggs fiasco was that, according to the early responses from staff, the OP could not simply pay a fee to access the amenities, but MUST endure a sales tour in order to do so.

There appears to have been some significant backpedaling and C.Y.A.ing in the staff's responses since this began.  Considering that Vermont is a state in which a real estate license is required for timeshare sales, I would expect to see further curbing/clarifying of this coercive policy.


----------



## ronparise

brigechols said:


> The comparison to Disney doesn't make sense. In this case, the rights and privileges of a Club Wyndham owner do not transfer to the renter. As an owner, I would spell out that information in the rental agreement.
> 
> If I don't have to pay for parking as an owner at the timeshare and the renter has to pay for parking, I will certainly spell that out in the rental agreement.
> 
> :hysterical: :rofl: :hysterical:
> 
> Do you even use rental agreements? Not the way I choose to conduct business. YMMV.



I get your point about the rights and privileges of a Club Wyndham owner  not transfering to the renter. but typically renters would not know what my rights and  privileges are. If something was included, and could perhaps get me a little more rent, Id surely mention it. But if something isnt included and normally wouldnt be expected. I wouldnt call it out

I dont use an agreement beyond a few notes on an invoice. And that is the way I choose to do business


----------



## ronparise

learnalot said:


> Ron,
> 
> I understand your point but agree only to a certain extent.  Your examples, though characteristically clever and witty, miss the mark somewhat in their scope. If we are using Bonnet Creek as an example, the more apt scenario here would not relate to admission charges for Disney, but to charges to use the facilities at BC, such as the pools and lazy rivers.  To extend the analogy as far as you did, of course guests must provide their own food for the kitchen, but in order to USE the stove, open the refrigerator or flush the toilet, they will be charged...price gouging a la Thenardier from Les Mis...
> 
> The biggest kicker in the Smuggs fiasco was that, according to the early responses from staff, the OP could not simply pay a fee to access the amenities, but MUST endure a sales tour in order to do so.
> 
> There appears to have been some significant backpedaling and C.Y.A.ing in the staff's responses since this began.  Considering that Vermont is a state in which a real estate license is required for timeshare sales, I would expect to see further curbing/clarifying of this coercive policy.



I love to argue and have learned over time that the best way to attack someone elses conclusion is to go after their assumptions. and then  _Reductio ad absurdum _The problem here is that the ops assumptions (entertainment is included with her rent) proved to be wrong.  What I was doing with my examples is trying to show how absurd some assumptions can be

The op wouldnt have had a problem if her assumptions going in were different

Of course there is a whole 'nother problem here and thats that the resort management has different prices  for different guests and owners..That is a problem but Im not speaking to that at all.


----------



## ronparise

learnalot said:


> Ron,
> 
> If we are using Bonnet Creek as an example, the more apt scenario here would not relate to admission charges for Disney, but to charges to use the facilities at BC, such as the pools and lazy rivers.  To extend the analogy as far as you did, of course guests must provide their own food for the kitchen, but in order to USE the stove, open the refrigerator or flush the toilet, they will be charged...price gouging a la Thenardier from Les Mis...



I know its a very small thing, but (I think Im right about this),  at Bonnet Creek, some of the games are included; the pool tables, and miniature golf, But they have an arcade style game room where you have to payto play..and at Grand Desert I think you have to pay for the pool tables..Also at Grand Desert the limo fleet is available to some Gold and Platinum owners for free,  but not to their tenants at any price


----------



## csxjohn

You're not keeping up Ron.  The OP was told, my the resort, that she would have to attend a meeting to be able to purchase the activities pass.  She was willing to do that.

After she made her final payment for the rental, she was then told, by someone at the resort, that her husband would also have to attend the meeting.  This is not acceptable to her.

Of course this brought up all the other issues of how different classes of users at many resorts have to pay for things such as parking and internet access that owners at those resorts don't have to pay for. 

There is another thread talking about that issue.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175683

The OPs problems really makes me want to quit considering Wyndham at all.


----------



## learnalot

ronparise said:


> I love to argue and have learned over time that the best way to attack someone elses conclusion is to go after their assumptions. and then  _Reductio ad absurdum _The problem here is that the ops assumptions (entertainment is included with her rent) proved to be wrong.  What I was doing with my examples is trying to show how absurd some assumptions can be
> 
> The op wouldnt have had a problem if her assumptions going in were different
> 
> Of course there is a whole 'nother problem here and thats that the resort management has different prices  for different guests and owners..That is a problem but Im not speaking to that at all.



I get it.  And I knew that I was also extending to the point of the absurd for illustrative purposes.  Reeling it back in, I would simply say that I think there are certain amenities for which one would generally expect to pay extra ( or at least realize there MAY be a charge - golf and wifi first come to mind).  I would at least anticipate possible charges for those (although it bugs me if they charge for wifi).  I would expect that there might be a parking charge in an urban area.  But I wouldn't expect or appreciate beng charged for parking at a sprawling rural resort.  And I wouldn't expect to pay for use of any of the basic facilities and grounds.

I was thinking of you yesterday when I was warning Jen about the way Wyndham sales staff will use semantics to avoid/obscure the answer to a question.  I wanted to tell her that you summed it up best once when answering someone's question by beginning with the quip "As my friend Bill Clinton would say, it depends on what your definition of 'IS' is."


----------



## rrlongwell

ronparise said:


> I love to argue ...



In the match of ronparise vs. learnalot, Game Set match goes to learnalot.  Congratulations on your victory.


----------



## ronparise

csxjohn said:


> You're not keeping up Ron.  The OP was told, my the resort, that she would have to attend a meeting to be able to purchase the activities pass.  She was willing to do that.
> 
> After she made her final payment for the rental, she was then told, by someone at the resort, that her husband would also have to attend the meeting.  This is not acceptable to her.
> 
> Of course this brought up all the other issues of how different classes of users at many resorts have to pay for things such as parking and internet access that owners at those resorts don't have to pay for.
> 
> There is another thread talking about that issue.
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175683
> 
> The OPs problems really makes me want to quit considering Wyndham at all.



No doubt I came into this at the end. The problem with sales and sales presentations is a fight I dont choose to engage in.  

My comment was to the assumption that the owner should have known what "extras" were or were not available to the op.and should have spelled it all out in a rental agreement.   As someone who rents Im saying that its a lot easier and safer to assume nothing is included and have my tenant pleasently surprised when something is; than to assume something is included and be un plesently surprised when it isnt.

I didnt read all of your thread regarding the different classes of users, but my experience with Wyndham is that there is very little difference in the way an owner, a guest, or an exchanger is treated or in what they pay for services and ammenities when they are at a resort. Even sales treats everyone to the same high pressure and lies. and its sales that seems to be the real problem at Smugs, That and the fact that Smugs is new to the Wyndham system, and it seems no one in Wyndham knows whats going on there


----------



## jenmsc

*Final Report!*

I had my final conversation with this director for Wyndham. I will do my best to report back here.  This was a fairly lengthy conversation, and I am still a newbie to this time sharing business, so please understand that I may not have grasped all the finer details of his explanation in the way a seasoned owner might.  I would encourage anyone reading this post for purposes of renting their own timeshare at Smuggs to do their own due diligence directly with Smuggs resort and Owner services and share back here for the benefit of others. 

I want to start by saying that, though it took some effort, I DO think that they did their best to understand what happened in my case and offer me a solution that is, ultimately, reasonable.  If I could edit the title of this thread, at this point, I would.  *Rather than calling the treatment "awful" I would now call it "complicated and time consuming".*   I am satisfied with the outcome for my purposes. Because of the facts of my individual situation, he exercised his discretion to permit me to purchase the Smuggs Pass by attending the tour alone.  There were a number of unusual problems with the way my situation was handled from the beginning, but I think the most critical fact to him was this:  When I initially called Smuggs to do my due diligence on this Craigslist listing, I was not told by either Wyndham Desk OR Owner Services that guests of Wyndham Points members actually have to QUALIFY to purchase a Smuggs Pass.  The policy (which I still find offensive) is, because I'm married, for us to even qualify to make the Smuggs pass purchase, my husband must attend the presentation too.  In my initial two calls, I was told "You have to pay the fee and attend the presentation to buy the pass", which, is technically, incorrect.  I relied on that information when I sent my final payment and let the 15 day cancellation period pass.  This is why he is budging.

So what IS the amenities policy at Smuggs with respect to "guests"?  The Wyndham policy is that guests of owners have no right to purchase a Smuggs Pass.  PERIOD.  A guest gets the unit and access to 1 pool.  The remaining amenities are available to guests on the "same terms and conditions as the general public."  What that means, exactly, I still have no idea (see more about this below).  It seems that these "terms and conditions" are defined by the Smuggs side, not the Wyndham side, so this Wyndham-side-person did not want to speak to those terms in detail as I was trying to understand the options.  I don't think he was being avoidant here.  If I understand their organizational structure correctly, it makes sense that he would not want to articulate policies that his side does not make.  

SEPARATE from this Wyndham policy , Smuggs has an "offer", if you will, for guests of owners.  IF a guest wants to purchase a Smuggs pass AND they qualify for a tour, they may purchase the Smuggs pass by taking a tour and paying appx. $360.

What alternatives does an owner's guest have with respect to amenities?  This is still unclear.  If you qualify, its appx. $360 plus tour, or else, access to amenities is subject to the same terms and conditions as the public.  If you want access to Mountainside pools, there is a day rate, but the site says day passes are subject to "limited availability".  Does this mean an owner's guest without a Smuggs pass could be denied the right to purchase a Mountainside Pass if they were full that day?  I still don't know.  The website also says that Notchville Park and the Lake & Water Trampoline are available to "Smugglers guests only".  So I guess an "owner's guest" without a Smuggs Pass can't buy access to these two things a-la-carte?  It also seems to me that this statement that Notchville pool is for "Smuggler's guests only" completely contradicts what you see on the page for the Smuggs 360 pass : http://www.smuggs.com/pages/winter/skiride/360-pass.php  This pass gives the public access to all 8 pools (I assume this would include the Notchville, which is supposedly for Smuggler's guests only?).  Also, when I asked the owner to show me the reservation screenshot BEFORE I booked, this disclaimer appeared at the bottom.  This appears to be Wyndham's official disclaimer: 

"VIP benefits are exclusively for our VIP Members.
A fee may be associated with some of the resort amenities and activities. Please contact the resort for more details."

It does not say that some amenities are NOT available for owner's guests to purchase.  It does not say WHO should contact the resort for more details (guest or owner?).  In fact, it says that a fee may be required of anyone for certain amenities, it doesn't actually say anything about special fees for owner's guests, but because it comes after the VIP thing, it sounds like they are talking about fees for owner's guests only.  This is all still pretty confusing and I think Smuggs needs to add better disclaimers somewhere to help people understand.  

His message to renters of owners: "Buyer beware".  And the most important take-away for those renting their units: He says it is the responsibility of anyone renting a Smuggs unit to disclose that the Smuggs Pass benefits don't transfer and to communicate the amenities policy accurately to renters.  He was adamant that owners are told this, should know it, and are required to communicate it if they are renting.  I have no idea what to believe in this regard.  For my part, I am still so unclear on the division of responsibilities in this situation between Smuggs and owners that renting just feels too precarious to me (even if it is a lot cheaper...)  

I complained that it was extremely difficult to figure out, either by calling or checking the website, what amenities a guest may purchase and under what terms and conditions.  The jist of his answer was that the website is designed for guests of the resort and owners, not guests of owners, and that the "system" is designed so that owners and their family members can use the Wyndham units, NOT rent them.  MY thought on this now: In a way, I guess this makes sense... Do they have any obligation to answer questions (and facilitate this rental process), when I call them as the potential renter of an owner?  At this moment I am neither an owner nor a resort customer (yet).  They will not make money from me if I book this.  Now that I think about it, why should they help me?  Once I am on the reservation, I guess the answer would be yes, they have to talk to me (and in my case, I was misinformed about the amenities policy when I was already talking to them as a registered guest-of-an-owner, fully registered but having not yet made my final payment to the owner).  Until I was in their system, they probably have every right to tell me to take a hike and get all my information from the owner (these are my words, not his)  Of course, in my instance, they didn't refuse to talk to me, but perhaps, for their own protection, they should?  I really don't know. I am sure you will all have opinions about this, but I really don't know enough about ownership rights to draw any conclusion here.  I don't understand who is responsible for communicating what to renters and potential renters in rent-from-owner situations.

Final conclusion: I got a vacation for much less money than what the resort would have charged, and I'm sure the vacation is going to be great, but in retrospect, this process seems too fraught with risk to try again.  As a potential renter I don't have access to enough verifiable, reliable information to really know what to expect when renting from an owner, and trying to get to the bottom of it all after the fact cost me a lot of time.  Furthermore, while this director was very understanding of my situation, he as clear that Wyndham clearly doesn't like that people rent their units out, and I don't like coming in there feeling like I'm walking in through a back door that they don't like.  It was interesting, but I don't think this is for me.

I hope this ended up being helpful to everyone in the practice of renting to guests and that things improve with this process so that other don't find themselves in an uncharted minefield like this one again.


----------



## ace2000

jenmsc,

Thanks for sharing the details.  IMO, you had a right to be upset through the process, and I would feel exactly like you.  For being a 'newbie', you really did a great job through the entire process.  I was impressed.  Hope all of your efforts pay off with an outstanding vacation!


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## Beefnot

I have been to 3 TS properties in the last year (Marriott Shadow Ridge, Welk Escondido, and one in Big Bear, CA) and never encountered such offensive business practices.  This thread makes me so happy that I didn't purchase from Wyndham like I'd originally planned.  I wouldn't buy there (on general principle) or rent from an owner (don't want to risk encountering some crap like what happened to the OP).  The only way I'd find myself in a Wyndham property is if I exchange in, and even then I doubt I'd even do that.


----------



## geekette

Thanks for taking the time to update us.

FWIW, this Smuggs/Wyndham affiliation is newer, W didn't used to have any hooks in Smuggs, Smuggs stood alone.

So while this experience was ... not a great introduction, I believe that this kind of right hand/left hand stuff is atypical.  I'm not sure how it would have gone down had you rented from a Smuggs owner instead.  

Smuggs is unique so I hope that you will find that this was a unique experience.  I own no resorts that require a tour for anything, nor Guest Passes nor parking passes or anything needed for the stay that must be wrested from the clutches of Sales.  The amenities are for all occupants, regardless of how they came to be there that week.  Repeat, Smuggs is Unique in their offerings.

Kudos to you for bull dogging through it.  I hope your time at Smuggs is waaaay better than expected.

I also hope this doesn't scare you away from timesharing altogether.  Yes, there are some shady practices, sales weasels are common, but these end up being fairly small elements in what is a great method for vacationing well.  

Good luck to you, and I want you to know that I appreciate your posting this experience.  It's good info for owners and renters alike.


----------



## ronparise

jenmsc said:


> I hope this ended up being helpful to everyone in the practice of renting to guests .



It was

Thanks


----------



## learnalot

jenmsc said:


> His message to renters of owners: "Buyer beware".  And the most important take-away for those renting their units: He says it is the responsibility of anyone renting a Smuggs unit to disclose that the Smuggs Pass benefits don't transfer and to communicate the amenities policy accurately to renters.  He was adamant that owners are told this, should know it, and are required to communicate it if they are renting.  I have no idea what to believe in this regard.  For my part, I am still so unclear on the division of responsibilities in this situation between Smuggs and owners that renting just feels too precarious to me (even if it is a lot cheaper...)
> 
> I complained that it was extremely difficult to figure out, either by calling or checking the website, what amenities a guest may purchase and under what terms and conditions.  The jist of his answer was that the website is designed for guests of the resort and owners, not guests of owners, and that the "system" is designed so that owners and their family members can use the Wyndham units, NOT rent them.



Jen,

Thank you for the update.  I am sorry this has been such a ridiculously complicated process for you.

A couple points of venting/clarification:  First of all, although I don't do a lot of rentals myself, I have certainly had that approach pitched to me in many a sales presentation.  And his indignation about units being intended for owners' personal use and not for rentals is a laughable smokescreen for the fact that about 5 years ago, Wyndham developed their own rental arm.  So they are not opposed to renters occupying the units - they just don't want the competition!  Not your problem, just my exasperation with their duplicity.

Second, for him to suggest that owners should be fully aware of how all of this would play out, when he himself does not seem to know, nor does anyone you talked to is ridiculous.

Finally, it should simply NOT be this complicated to get straight information about the prices and options.  A "guest" is not always a renter.  We have often gifted friends and family with vacations.  That anyone might experience the degree of difficulty and frustration you have trying to get information is completely unacceptable.

Again, I thank you for posting your experiences.  I hope you have a very enjoyable vacation - you deserve one after this!


----------



## SOS8260456

learnalot said:


> Jen,
> 
> Second, for him to suggest that owners should be fully aware of how all of this would play out, when he himself does not seem to know, nor does anyone you talked to is ridiculous.
> 
> Finally, it should simply NOT be this complicated to get straight information about the prices and options.  A "guest" is not always a renter.  We have often gifted friends and family with vacations.  That anyone might experience the degree of difficulty and frustration you have trying to get information is completely unacceptable.
> 
> Again, I thank you for posting your experiences.  I hope you have a very enjoyable vacation - you deserve one after this!



I agree with all of these points.  I can see a Wyndham Smuggs owner, but there are how many regular Wyndham owners who own at how many different resorts?  and all of these other Wyndham owners are suppose to know a policy that he didn't even know?  

In addition to the sales staff promoting rentals as a sale ploy, they also promote sending family and friends on vacation.  What happens if a family reunion with 3 or more units is planned?  I can get the pass for the first two units by putting one in my name and the other in my husband's, but what about the rest of the family?

I also appreciate your sharing this experience with us.

Like someone else said, I hope you have a really really great vacation especially after dealing with all of this.


----------



## rrlongwell

Thank you for telling us how it came out.  It was a real learning model.  Now, it is clear to anyone seeing your thread that if Smuglers Notch is involved and if the amenities are important to them, then there could be some surprises when they try and use them.  If I were a rentor of Smuglers unit in the Wyndham program, I would disclose that amenities may cost extra and a sales meeting may be requried under some circumstances and to contract the resort for detail on this.


----------



## pacodemountainside

rrlongwell said:


> In the match of ronparise vs. learnalot, Game Set match goes to learnalot.  Congratulations on your victory.



RR:

You seem to be having difficulty  rattling Ron's cage!


----------



## WinniWoman

geekette said:


> Thanks for taking the time to update us.
> 
> FWIW, this Smuggs/Wyndham affiliation is newer, W didn't used to have any hooks in Smuggs, Smuggs stood alone.
> 
> So while this experience was ... not a great introduction, I believe that this kind of right hand/left hand stuff is atypical.  I'm not sure how it would have gone down had you rented from a Smuggs owner instead.
> 
> Smuggs is unique so I hope that you will find that this was a unique experience.  I own no resorts that require a tour for anything, nor Guest Passes nor parking passes or anything needed for the stay that must be wrested from the clutches of Sales.  The amenities are for all occupants, regardless of how they came to be there that week.  Repeat, Smuggs is Unique in their offerings.
> 
> Kudos to you for bull dogging through it.  I hope your time at Smuggs is waaaay better than expected.
> 
> I also hope this doesn't scare you away from timesharing altogether.  Yes, there are some shady practices, sales weasels are common, but these end up being fairly small elements in what is a great method for vacationing well.
> 
> Good luck to you, and I want you to know that I appreciate your posting this experience.  It's good info for owners and renters alike.



Much easier to rent from a non-Wyndham Smuggs owner. You pay the rent and you buy the pass if you want period.


----------



## jenmsc

mpumilia said:


> Much easier to rent from a non-Wyndham Smuggs owner. You pay the rent and you buy the pass if you want period.



Is this true?  If someone can find this somewhere in writing I would be interested.  That would by-pass this whole headache as far as I understand, which makes the rental value of a Smuggs-owner unit much higher than the rental value of a Wyndham points-owner who booked a unit at Smuggs with their points.  

In fact, its better than renting from the resort, because you get exactly the same package as if you rented from the resort, but you are guaranteed a particular unit instead of one of a class of units.  If this is true, Smuggs-owners would do well to represent this fact when marketing their rentals.


----------



## jenmsc

SOS8260456 said:


> What happens if a family reunion with 3 or more units is planned?  I can get the pass for the first two units by putting one in my name and the other in my husband's, but what about the rest of the family?



Whoever would be staying in the third unit would be in the same situation as me, listening to a sales ploy (as long as this offer is still available), having to pay piecemeal, or possibly being restricted from using some of the amenities entirely.  I am not sure how they would even enforce this mess


----------



## jenmsc

rrlongwell said:


> Thank you for telling us how it came out.  It was a real learning model.  Now, it is clear to anyone seeing your thread that if Smuglers Notch is involved and if the amenities are important to them, then there could be some surprises when they try and use them.  If I were a rentor of Smuglers unit in the Wyndham program, I would disclose that amenities may cost extra and a sales meeting may be requried under some circumstances and to contract the resort for detail on this.



Except that this offer from Smuggs (the pitch + $360) is something that Smuggs is offering because they are being "nice", not because they are required to.  Its an offer. It could go away at any time...

My impression from this Wyndham director was that they want the owner to figure it out and make all representations to the renters, and if you get it wrong, its not their problem.  I am not sure that "contact the resort for detail" is what they want happening.  Once you've already added someone's name to the reservation, they will give the guest some kind of explanation that may vary depending on who they talk to.  And as I mentioned above, if a guest wants to bypass the Smuggs pass, its still not clear if certain amenities (Notchville and the lake) are simply unavailable to guests of points owners at any price.  

I actually think that the only safe way to do this is to disclose to your prospective renter that NO amenities are guaranteed other than the 1 pool so that you don't end up with an angry guest who may have no chance to use an amenity or may be surprised by the whopping price tag of some of these amenities.  This would seriously drive down the rental price of units booked by Wyndham points owners.  I am guessing that's probably the whole goal of the policy.


----------



## WinniWoman

jenmsc said:


> Is this true?  If someone can find this somewhere in writing I would be interested.  That would by-pass this whole headache as far as I understand, which makes the rental value of a Smuggs-owner unit much higher than the rental value of a Wyndham points-owner who booked a unit at Smuggs with their points.
> 
> In fact, its better than renting from the resort, because you get exactly the same package as if you rented from the resort, but you are guaranteed a particular unit instead of one of a class of units.  If this is true, Smuggs-owners would do well to represent this fact when marketing their rentals.



Yes, it's true- I am a "weeks" Smuggs owner since 1999 and our Smuggs Group forum has been discussing this thread as well and we are happy to know as non-Wyndham owners that it is more advantageous for people to rent from us than the Wyndham owners, since many of us (probably most of us) have not converted to Wyndham and have no intention of doing so. When you rent from a regular Smuggs owner, you just pay the rent and you can decide whether or not to buy a Pass or not-no presentation required, although Wyndham will try to make an appointment with you when you check in. (They even tried with me, as an owner, but I put them off and they only called my unit once afterwards, which I still declined. They were low key with me about it-no problems at all).

This works out well if you are not even sure you want to buy a pass-you can go there and check things out first and then decide what to do- whether to buy for the whole week, a few days, whatever-or not!

Actually, I think I have a letter from management somewhere in my files stating that if owners rent, their renters have to buy the pass IF they want to use the amenities. It never was that way years ago. The owners used to be able to pass their benefits on to a renters. But management decided a number of years ago to change it and sent us a letter spelling it out so we would all know how to handle it. (We can still pass our benefits down to immediate family members to use if we are not using the week-not sure about friends if we are not present-have to look that one up).

PS Many Smuggs owners do list the fact that you have to buy a PASS if you want in their ads.


----------



## csxjohn

jenmsc said:


> I actually think that the only safe way to do this is to disclose to your prospective renter that NO amenities are guaranteed other than the 1 pool so that you don't end up with an angry guest who may have no chance to use an amenity or may be surprised by the whopping price tag of some of these amenities.  This would seriously drive down the rental price of units booked by Wyndham points owners.  I am guessing that's probably the whole goal of the policy.





In my quest to try to learn about the Wyndham points programs, I have read that in the sales presentations, prospective buyers are told they can rent their timeshare and make a profit or at least recover some of their MFs.

Now we have them making it costly and confusing for someone to rent into one of these units.

I don't believe this is a case of the left hand not knowing what the right is doing.

It may be time to buy stock in Wyndham.  It appears they are very good at separating people from their money.


----------



## jenmsc

SOS8260456 said:


> I agree with all of these points.  I can see a Wyndham Smuggs owner, but there are how many regular Wyndham owners who own at how many different resorts?  and all of these other Wyndham owners are suppose to know a policy that he didn't even know?



I think the idea is that if you, as a Wyndham points owner are going to delve into the business of renting Smuggs units, you're using a back door that they don't like.  Its a legit back door, but they want to make sure that all you have the "right" to rent is the unit + 1 pool.


----------



## learnalot

jenmsc said:


> I think the idea is that if you, as a Wyndham points owner are going to delve into the business of renting Smuggs units, you're using a back door that they don't like.  Its a legit back door, but they want to make sure that all you have the "right" to rent is the unit + 1 pool.



The problem is, again, while this may stem from their displeasure about rentals (which their sales staff pitched in the first place), the fallout extends beyond that because even if I sent my sister and her husband (and wasn't renting to them), they would encounter the same thing.  Not okay.

Besides, their biggest objective is simply to force more people to sit through a sales pitch.


----------



## ace2000

csxjohn said:


> It may be time to buy stock in Wyndham. It appears they are very good at separating people from their money.


 
You missed the boat.  Take a look at their stock price over the last several years.  Yes, they have got it down to a science.  Take a look at all the additional fees and fee increases they've come up with over the last 3 years or so.


----------



## learnalot

jenmsc said:


> I think the idea is that if you, as a Wyndham points owner are going to delve into the business of renting Smuggs units, you're using a back door that they don't like.  Its a legit back door, but they want to make sure that all you have the "right" to rent is the unit + 1 pool.



By the way, I'm still not sure any of this is actually real.  I don't mean that I think you're making it up, I just mean that I'm not sure this problem actually exists - that you couldn't just go to the tickets window/desk someone referenced long ago in this thread and purchase your tickets.  

That might sound strange to you, but that's because you have not been around the block with the Wyndham sales staff before.  One of their well documented tactics is for the rep to uncover a "problem" with your account, which they will make Herculean efforts to help you resolve...After many machinations, hand wringing, and conferring with the regional VP, who fortunately is on site today, they have gone to bat for you and have found a way to solve this (actually non-existent) problem.  It will require a very small developer purchase, but then all your problems will be solved forever and SuperRep will now be your personal representative, advocate and new best friend.

Don't get me wrong.  We thoroughly enjoy our Wyndham vacations - as long as we stay far, far away from the sales pit.  Go in with your eyes wide open!


----------



## ronparise

learnalot said:


> Don't get me wrong.  We thoroughly enjoy our Wyndham vacations - as long as we stay far, far away from the sales pit.  Go in with your eyes wide open!



See there the difference: you and me. I enjoy my interaction with the sales force. I would rather sit for an hour or two with these guys than chase a little white ball around or ski, or almost any of those other diversions offered at Smuggs


----------



## learnalot

ronparise said:


> See there the difference: you and me. I enjoy my interaction with the sales force. I would rather sit for an hour or two with these guys than chase a little white ball around or ski, or almost any of those other diversions offered at Smuggs



You are more than welcome to them, Ron.


----------



## SkiTee

brigechols said:


> t
> 
> I checked on the Smuggs website and an adult family pass is $519 and a youth family pass is $319.



I think you are looking at the cost of season ski passes.  The summer SmuggsPass is around $49 per day and includes everyone staying in your condo.


----------



## jenmsc

I wonder if this sheds any light on the problem.  I did not mention this information earlier, as I thought it wasn't relevant, but now I am wondering...

The person I rented from is in the business of using the points of Wyndham points owners.  Wyndham Points Owners rent their points out to her.  She uses them to book weeks at various Wyndham units.  She markets these vacations using Craigslist and possibly other advertising portals.    

This all seemed very screwy to me at first, but I called Smuggs and checked business references of this person and it all checked out.  Wyndham policies permit this.

My understanding is that if this person does not successfully rent out the weeks to someone by15 days from the start date, she calls to cancel the reservations and the points are refunded.  

What is happening in this instance is that this person is booking weeks for the sole purpose of renting vacations to the public and getting some kind of profit.

I haven't thought this all through.  Does this hurt owners?  I can see how this could make it difficult for a points owner to book a week for personal use if people are out there buying points memberships cheap at resale, renting their points for a profit, and weeks are being "hogged" like this at the expense of Wyndham Points Owners who actually want to vacation at Smuggs.  The Wyndham front desk told me that original owner of the points used to make my reservation supposedly has a lot of points and does this a lot.  Maybe this is why, if you want to use points to book a vacation at Smuggs in high season, you have to book months in advance.  Someone is holding weeks for profit.

I think if I were a Wyndham Points owner I would be unhappy if I realized that the general public could obtain last-minute rentals at Smuggs cheaply and easily on Craigslist, when booking with points as a member must be done months in advance.  Shouldn't a points owner have a better chance of getting a reservation than the general public?  I know it costs you less as a points owner, but still...  

There must be something about this that Smuggs and Wyndham do not like, because I get the distinct sense that what they are trying to do here is keep the value of points for personal use high but depress the value for anyone who is using Wyndham points purely for profit.  Maybe they aren't trying to hurt people who are renting a little bit or gifting vacations to extended family, but they can't effectively defend against an expanding side market any other way?  

This thing gets more and more complicated every minute.  At this point its irrelevant for me, but part of me really wants to just get to the bottom of it all because I've put in so much time trying to understand this mess!


----------



## massvacationer

OP:
I am betting, that once you check-in at Smuggs, you will be able to  go to the desk that sells Smuggs passes and buy one for the same price that they sell them to RCI exchangers....without a tour/sales appointment

I think you have been getting the same old Wyndham Sales BS that is used at other Wyndham resorts - with a slightly different twist


----------



## ace2000

jenmsc said:


> I wonder if this sheds any light on the problem. I did not mention this information earlier, as I thought it wasn't relevant, but now I am wondering...
> 
> The person I rented from is in the business of using the points of Wyndham points owners. Wyndham Points Owners rent their points out to her. She uses them to book weeks at various Wyndham units. She markets these vacations using Craigslist and possibly other advertising portals.
> 
> This all seemed very screwy to me at first, but I called Smuggs and checked business references of this person and it all checked out. Wyndham policies permit this.
> 
> My understanding is that if this person does not successfully rent out the weeks to someone by15 days from the start date, she calls to cancel the reservations and the points are refunded.
> 
> What is happening in this instance is that this person is booking weeks for the sole purpose of renting vacations to the public and getting some kind of profit.
> 
> I haven't thought this all through. Does this hurt owners? I can see how this could make it difficult for a points owner to book a week for personal use if people are out there buying points memberships cheap at resale, renting their points for a profit, and weeks are being "hogged" like this at the expense of Wyndham Points Owners who actually want to vacation at Smuggs. The Wyndham front desk told me that original owner of the points used to make my reservation supposedly has a lot of points and does this a lot. Maybe this is why, if you want to use points to book a vacation at Smuggs in high season, you have to book months in advance. Someone is holding weeks for profit.
> 
> I think if I were a Wyndham Points owner I would be unhappy if I realized that the general public could obtain last-minute rentals at Smuggs cheaply and easily on Craigslist, when booking with points as a member must be done months in advance. Shouldn't a points owner have a better chance of getting a reservation than the general public? I know it costs you less as a points owner, but still...
> 
> There must be something about this that Smuggs and Wyndham do not like, because I get the distinct sense that what they are trying to do here is keep the value of points for personal use high but depress the value for anyone who is using Wyndham points purely for profit. Maybe they aren't trying to hurt people who are renting a little bit or gifting vacations to extended family, but they can't effectively defend against an expanding side market any other way?
> 
> This thing gets more and more complicated every minute. At this point its irrelevant for me, but part of me really wants to just get to the bottom of it all because I've put in so much time trying to understand this mess!


 
Actually, everything you said sounds valid.  The early bird catches the worm in the world of timeshares.

The mega-renters are booking the high-end weeks as soon as possible, and they're familiar enough with the dates that they lock them in at the earliest possible point in time.


----------



## jenmsc

massvacationer said:


> OP:
> I am betting, that once you check-in at Smuggs, you will be able to  go to the desk that sells Smuggs passes and buy one for the same price that they sell them to RCI exchangers....without a tour/sales appointment
> 
> I think you have been getting the same old Wyndham Sales BS that is used at other Wyndham resorts - with a slightly different twist



I will certainly try since so many people are telling me that this is the way it really works.  I do plan to unplug my phone as suggested.


----------



## ace2000

jen, welcome to the world of timeshares.  I have a feeling you're about to get hooked.  You may not buy, but I have a feeling you'll be at least renting them a lot more in the future.


----------



## am1

There is nothing wrong with profit.  Wall street does this every day with things more important than vacations.  Governments do it as well with quotas.  

I also believe this is all about nothing.  The sales force most liking cost them a sale by how it has been handled.  It is possible they can save it by comping the Smuggs pass.


----------



## jenmsc

ace2000 said:


> jen, welcome to the world of timeshares.  I have a feeling you're about to get hooked.  You may not buy, but I have a feeling you'll be at least renting them a lot more in the future.



I think if we like Smuggs I will definitely want to rent again from a Smuggs owner with a fixed week.  Unless I am missing something here, that seems like it would be fairly simple and painless.  But renting from someone using Wyndham points seems a little treacherous for properties like this where amenities matter.  I won't go down this exact road again.

I also have to experience how unpleasant the sales machine is.  Everyone here has me believing that Smugglers will be like The Matrix with these Agent-Smith-like salespeople popping up all over the place.  

My boys have a large collection of retractable toy light-sabers that may come in handy...


----------



## ace2000

jenmsc said:


> I think if we like Smuggs I will definitely want to rent again from a Smuggs owner with a fixed week. Unless I am missing something here, that seems like it would be fairly simple and painless. But renting from someone using Wyndham points seems a little treacherous for properties like this where amenities matter. I won't go down this exact road again.
> 
> I also have to experience how unpleasant the sales machine is. Everyone here has me believing that Smugglers will be like The Matrix with these Agent-Smith-like salespeople popping up all over the place.
> 
> My boys have a large collection of retractable toy light-sabers that may come in handy...


 
Ok, just to be very clear.  I think you realize this, but I don't want to go back and read the thread.  When you go to your presentation, do NOT buy from wyndham!  The sales staff are notorious for telling half truths and outright lies.

Look at the resale market (on ebay at least), and you'll find you can buy what you want a lot cheaper than you can from wyndham.


----------



## jenmsc

ace2000 said:


> Ok, just to be very clear.  I think you realize this, but I don't want to go back and read the thread.  When you go to your presentation, do NOT buy from wyndham!  The sales staff are notorious for telling half truths and outright lies.
> 
> Look at the resale market (on ebay at least), and you'll find you can buy what you want a lot cheaper than you can from wyndham.



Oh yes, I caught that pretty early on.  Thanks!


----------



## learnalot

massvacationer said:


> OP:
> I am betting, that once you check-in at Smuggs, you will be able to  go to the desk that sells Smuggs passes and buy one for the same price that they sell them to RCI exchangers....without a tour/sales appointment
> 
> I think you have been getting the same old Wyndham Sales BS that is used at other Wyndham resorts - with a slightly different twist



My thoughts exactly.


----------



## massvacationer

*Club Wyndham Points are a good product*

Also - just to keep all of this in perspective:

IMO the Club Wyndham Points Product is one of the better timeshare products available.  Very flexible, great availability of vacation condos, good value - IF PURCHASED RESALE.  Very nice resorts with good resort management.

The sales department can be difficult, so either avoid them - or understand their game. 

All of the other Wyndham New England resorts (Newport & Berkshires) don't even have sales departments anymore, so no issues there.  

I believe that On Site amenities are open to all and free (or low cost with everyone paying the same price) at all other Wyndham resorts.

Also, Knowing the culture  of Vermont and the pro-consumer legal environment there, I'm betting the sales pressure will not be real high from the Wyndham-Sales folks at Smuggs.


----------



## bnoble

> I am betting, that once you check-in at Smuggs, you will be able to go to the desk that sells Smuggs passes and buy one for the same price that they sell them to RCI exchangers....without a tour/sales appointment


This is my bet too.  It certainly comports with Occam's Razor.


----------



## rrlongwell

pacodemountainside said:


> RR:
> 
> You seem to be having difficulty  rattling Ron's cage!



Not trying to.  I was born in the 50s, grew up in the 60s, I am one of those people that believe in peace and all those other nice ideals of that generation.  I would not try to rattle his cage, that would not be nice.  I just gave a nice very biased ruling in favor of the home team.


----------



## Sandi Bo

jenmsc said:


> The person I rented from is in the business of using the points of Wyndham points owners.  Wyndham Points Owners rent their points out to her.  She uses them to book weeks at various Wyndham units.  She markets these vacations using Craigslist and possibly other advertising portals.



Interesting to me, if the person you rented from rents here often, how was she not aware of the situation nor able to help you in any of this? (At least my impression was you had no assistance from her throughout this ordeal).

And thank you for posting your story here, I am thankful to be aware of this situation. I had no idea things operated this way at Smugg's, and I stayed there in December. BTW, we had absolutely no pressure to attend a sales presentation, I don't even think they asked (and we had 2 rooms - one as a Wyndham owner and the 2nd we rented from another Wyndham owner). 

Hope you enjoy your stay, we sure did.


----------



## ronparise

jenmsc said:


> I wonder if this sheds any light on the problem.  I did not mention this information earlier, as I thought it wasn't relevant, but now I am wondering...
> 
> The person I rented from is in the business of using the points of Wyndham points owners.  Wyndham Points Owners rent their points out to her.  She uses them to book weeks at various Wyndham units.  She markets these vacations using Craigslist and possibly other advertising portals.
> 
> This all seemed very screwy to me at first, but I called Smuggs and checked business references of this person and it all checked out.  Wyndham policies permit this.
> 
> My understanding is that if this person does not successfully rent out the weeks to someone by15 days from the start date, she calls to cancel the reservations and the points are refunded.
> 
> What is happening in this instance is that this person is booking weeks for the sole purpose of renting vacations to the public and getting some kind of profit.
> 
> I haven't thought this all through.  Does this hurt owners?  I can see how this could make it difficult for a points owner to book a week for personal use if people are out there buying points memberships cheap at resale, renting their points for a profit, and weeks are being "hogged" like this at the expense of Wyndham Points Owners who actually want to vacation at Smuggs.  The Wyndham front desk told me that original owner of the points used to make my reservation supposedly has a lot of points and does this a lot.  Maybe this is why, if you want to use points to book a vacation at Smuggs in high season, you have to book months in advance.  Someone is holding weeks for profit.
> 
> I think if I were a Wyndham Points owner I would be unhappy if I realized that the general public could obtain last-minute rentals at Smuggs cheaply and easily on Craigslist, when booking with points as a member must be done months in advance.  Shouldn't a points owner have a better chance of getting a reservation than the general public?  I know it costs you less as a points owner, but still...
> 
> There must be something about this that Smuggs and Wyndham do not like, because I get the distinct sense that what they are trying to do here is keep the value of points for personal use high but depress the value for anyone who is using Wyndham points purely for profit.  Maybe they aren't trying to hurt people who are renting a little bit or gifting vacations to extended family, but they can't effectively defend against an expanding side market any other way?
> 
> This thing gets more and more complicated every minute.  At this point its irrelevant for me, but part of me really wants to just get to the bottom of it all because I've put in so much time trying to understand this mess!



Im not a big player (but I wanna-be)

 I do rent most of what I own. The rental income covers all my maintenance fees, and allows me to vacation for free. The Wyndham points I own however are the weak sister in my portfolio...I can barely cover my maintenance fees,  unless I can use them to, as you say, "tie up" some really high demand weeks. 

This year I was able to "tie up" two reservations for New Orleans Mardi Gras . Understand that to do this I was up at the crack of dawn on a Sunday, exactly 10 months ahead of check in. coffee in one hand, computer mouse in the other. And I suspect so was every other Wyndham points owner that wanted one of these reservations. We all had an equal shot, and we can only make one reservation at a time...click, click, click...They were all gone in 5 minutes. I got about half of what I wanted. 

Wyndham has Im guessing 500000 points owners, and only 150 rooms available to points owners in New Orleans. Obviously someone was going to be disappointed. But I dont think what Im doing contributes to their disappointment, They had the same shot as I did to snag that reservation...

Everyone, me included, has the same right to these reservations, and the same chance of getting one (or two or three if they want them) 

And who's to say that my use of my points (renting to cover my maintenance fees) is not as important as the gal that wants to bare her breasts for beads.

By the way...If Wyndham really wanted to curtail the rental market, they would do something to support the resale market place (like buy back points at 50% of current developer sales prices after 5 years of ownership). The only thing that makes what Im doing possible is that I can buy this stuff for next to nothing


----------



## WinniWoman

jenmsc said:


> I think if we like Smuggs I will definitely want to rent again from a Smuggs owner with a fixed week.  Unless I am missing something here, that seems like it would be fairly simple and painless.  But renting from someone using Wyndham points seems a little treacherous for properties like this where amenities matter.  I won't go down this exact road again.
> 
> I also have to experience how unpleasant the sales machine is.  Everyone here has me believing that Smugglers will be like The Matrix with these Agent-Smith-like salespeople popping up all over the place.
> 
> My boys have a large collection of retractable toy light-sabers that may come in handy...




You can also rent from a Smuggs owner with RCI Points with no hassle.

By the way, years ago, when Smuggs was ONLY a WEEKS resort, exchangers could never get into the place during prime time. Even putting a request in a year or two in advance.


----------



## WinniWoman

Smuggs and the owners there do not want a lot of renters for obvious reasons, except for the Family Share and Equi share, and Full-time owners who own a lot of weeks. The renters don't have a stake in the place like the owners do (especially the ones who actually like to vacation at Smuggs,7 their home resort) and many (not all, of course) do not treat the units/resort as well as people who own. With this economy, Wyndham was brought in to help with sales of of all the unsold time and to help with the completion of buildings in the North Hill. However, with this arrangement comes the issue of all the Wyndham Points owners ability to rent, of which there are a lot of them! But, it's a double edge sword- the resort naturally needs to generate revenue. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing.


----------



## WinniWoman

jenmsc said:


> Oh yes, I caught that pretty early on.  Thanks!



You could always try E Bay, Redweek, TUG, etc. to buy something at Smuggs. Smuggs owners have their own listings thread/column as well and there is a former real estate sales person for Smuggs that has her own company/website now that handles Vermont timeshares-mainly Smuggs.


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## jenmsc

ronparise said:


> Im not a big player (but I wanna-be)
> 
> I do rent most of what I own. The rental income covers all my maintenance fees, and allows me to vacation for free. The Wyndham points I own however are the weak sister in my portfolio...I can barely cover my maintenance fees,  unless I can use them to, as you say, "tie up" some really high demand weeks.
> 
> This year I was able to "tie up" two reservations for New Orleans Mardi Gras . Understand that to do this I was up at the crack of dawn on a Sunday, exactly 10 months ahead of check in. coffee in one hand, computer mouse in the other. And I suspect so was every other Wyndham points owner that wanted one of these reservations. We all had an equal shot, and we can only make one reservation at a time...click, click, click...They were all gone in 5 minutes. I got about half of what I wanted.
> 
> Wyndham has Im guessing 500000 points owners, and only 150 rooms available to points owners in New Orleans. Obviously someone was going to be disappointed. But I dont think what Im doing contributes to their disappointment, They had the same shot as I did to snag that reservation...
> 
> Everyone, me included, has the same right to these reservations, and the same chance of getting one (or two or three if they want them)
> 
> And who's to say that my use of my points (renting to cover my maintenance fees) is not as important as the gal that wants to bare her breasts for beads.
> 
> By the way...If Wyndham really wanted to curtail the rental market, they would do something to support the resale market place (like buy back points at 50% of current developer sales prices after 5 years of ownership). The only thing that makes what Im doing possible is that I can buy this stuff for next to nothing



It makes perfect sense that people will do this, and should be able to.  After all, you're buying property of a sort here, and that means it should be something that can be bought, used and sold.  But what Wyndham and Smuggs are doing makes sense too -- they are selling products that compete with what points owners have, and if they can prop up the value of those things to make more money by restricting amenity access to certain classes of users and improving unit availability to the people they are selling to, they will.  

It seems like Wyndham is contradicting itself, one minute trying to sell people on the idea that renting is permissible and lucrative, and the next minute telling people its not something they should be doing.  But, I guess "buyer beware" applies here too.  I don't think its reasonable to expect to get anything useful out of a sales pitch anywhere.  Its easier and more effective to get the documents and read.

People buying in to a system like this need to think it through and realize the competing interests inherent in the structure (points owners vs. weeks owners  vs. the resort vs. Wyndham) and understand that policies like this are likely to come up and change the game at any point.  That's why I'm not particularly resentful about what happened here - I stepped into some kind of crossfire, saved myself some money, but I also got hit.  I shouldn't be surprised


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## csxjohn

ace2000 said:


> You missed the boat....





I was at the train terminal.:rofl:


----------



## geekette

jenmsc said:


> I will certainly try since so many people are telling me that this is the way it really works.  I do plan to unplug my phone as suggested.



and do not under any circumstances divulge your cell phone #!!!!


----------



## geekette

ronparise said:


> ...Understand that to do this I was up at the crack of dawn on a Sunday, exactly 10 months ahead of check in. coffee in one hand, computer mouse in the other. And I suspect so was every other Wyndham points owner that wanted one of these reservations. We all had an equal shot, and we can only make one reservation at a time...click, click, click...They were all gone in 5 minutes. I got about half of what I wanted.
> 
> ... They had the same shot as I did to snag that reservation...
> 
> Everyone, me included, has the same right to these reservations, and the same chance of getting one (or two or three if they want them)
> ...
> The only thing that makes what Im doing possible is that I can buy this stuff for next to nothing



Excellent points:

Everyone had same shot at reservations
Renting is allowed
Cheap points availability creates opportunities for some folks to become mega renters - a person owning points and paying maint fees is good for the resort/system so there is no reason to discourage renting

nothing wrong with any of this


----------



## pacodemountainside

rrlongwell said:


> OH MY GOSH, do not let this secret become known, I actually think you are right !!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> In my opinion, if your significant other is being denied services because of her association with you in a non-martial status, you would not be the agrieved party (I think it would be very hard to get a state agency or EEOC pursue a complaint from you based on age into litagation, and it is unlikely Wyndham would settle that for finance reasons).  However, she arguably is very much be an agreived party and could very well be a basis for civil rights complaints based on different treatment becase of age/gender. Specifically on the issue of have a 2nd person attend a tour with her i.e. she would be denied the experience and advise of a older person.    The age portion could come in if she is 4 or more years younger than you.  If it is under 4 years, then there is a good chance that portion of the claim would fail because it could be argued that there is not a significant age difference, in your particular case.  Additionally, if the Age portion failed, that would probably make the gender portion very difficult to prove.  In most states, I think your siginficant other would have sufficient basis to get in the front door and file a discrimination complaint with the appropriate State/Federal authorities.  If the state involved is a contract agency with EEOC, then the odds approach 100 percent that your significant other's complaint would be filed with the EEOC at the same time.  A state contract agency with a EEOC contract gets a few bucks for the the dual filing.  They do the investigation, your significant other would generally have appeal rights to a negative decision both through the States internal process and EEOC.  It does not cost you anything in any state to do this, as far as I know.
> 
> If I were your investigator, I would try to get Wyndham to sign up to a pre-determination settlement that permits your significant other to attend sales presentations with associated free bees under the same terms and conditions of any other single person.
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure, I am retired from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.  19 plus of my years of service was for the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commision.  This state agency did have the federal EEOC contracts for both Title VII and the federal age act.  I have done 19 plus years of investigations into this type of complaint.



Thank you for all the good info. At this stage of my life not up to a big battle since got   $100 debit card. Take the easy way out and crank up A/C and have another cold Corona!


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## rrlongwell

pacodemountainside said:


> Thank you for all the good info. At this stage of my life not up to a big battle since got   $100 debit card. Take the easy way out and crank up A/C and have another cold Corona!



Thank you.  By the way I am in generous mood tonight, make that an extra cold Coronal over and above what you mentioned on your tab.


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## SkiTee

jenmsc said:


> Final conclusion: I got a vacation for much less money than what the resort would have charged, and I'm sure the vacation is going to be great, but in retrospect, this process seems too fraught with risk to try again.    It was interesting, but I don't think this is for me.
> 
> I hope this ended up being helpful to everyone in the practice of renting to guests and that things improve with this process so that other don't find themselves in an uncharted minefield like this one again.



Avoid the whole "uncharted minefield" and just rent from a non-Wyndham owner.  Most owners are not part of Wyndham.  In your inquiry just ask the owner if they are a Smuggs deeded owner and if you will be able to buy a  SmuggsPass.  You can find Smuggs owners renting on HomeAway, VRBO, and VacationRentals.com.


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## SkiTee

geekette said:


> Excellent points:
> 
> Everyone had same shot at reservations
> Renting is allowed
> Cheap points availability creates opportunities for some folks to become mega renters - a person owning points and paying maint fees is good for the resort/system so there is no reason to discourage renting
> 
> nothing wrong with any of this


 
If I were a Wyndham owner, I would be very unhappy if on the first day weeks were available, I couldn't get what I wanted because other Wyndham owners were snatching weeks just to rent them and make money.  That's exactly why you aren't allowed to rent RCI exchanges.


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## Jan M.

Funny you should mention Glacier Canyon, Lisa. The Wyndham Weasels strike again! As of 8/1/12 resort manager, Kimberly Albert and sales/marketing manager, Nick Cafarelli, jointly mandated an immediate and previously unannounced enforcement of a policy from 2007 that was never used. Guests can no longer pre-register and get the waterpark wristbands prior to 4pm unless they agree to attend a sales presentation. Wyndham has only a part of Glacier Canyon and there are also other lodgings in Wilderness Territory which is huge. Guests, except for Wyndham guests, can pre-register and get their wristbands starting at 11am. But it gets even better! If you don't qualify or refuse to sign up for the sales presentation, your name goes to the bottom of the list for units to be ready. And this summer units are frequently not ready til 6pm or later. And get this, they are deliberately witholding the wristband til the units are ready too.  Now guests are given the gift cards when they sign up instead of at the conclusion of the presentation. Once they sign up, member services won't permit then to return the gifts either so if they don't go their credit card is charged for the gifts. I wonder how the credit card companies are going to handle this when people start disputing the charge. Because of course people are going to claim fraudulent, deceptive, etc. business practices and it is true.

This decision to start enforcing an unused 5 year old policy was not announced beforehand, wasn't posted in advance or even that day, nor were incoming owners or their guests notified prior to arrival. The resort employees were not told in advance either. So the morning of 8/1, but before the announcement was made, my renter called the resort to confirm that they could have the wristbands when they arrived. After driving 4.5 hours with a small child and a baby they get there at 2:30 to be told they had to wait til 4 but would be lucky to get in til 6 if they didn't sign up. When the front desk, their representative,  told her she could have them, no strings attached, that put the resort under binding contractual obligation.

 **Attention Glacier Canyon owners and board of directors: sales is openly dictating your resort's policy. Can you say Better Business Bureau, Wisconsin Attorney General, class action lawsuit, etc. How would you feel if the guest being subjected to this treatment was your parents, in-laws, siblings, best friends.**  Because they are telling guests that they are doing this for the benefit of you the owners. 

Not only that but outright lies are being told about owners who rent stays in a pathetic attempt to make this blatent sales scam seem justified. If the guests attend the sales pitch and understand what they are told about how the Wyndham system works, they will be able to spot the glaringly obvious lies. To quote a truly excellent salesperson we recently dealt with on a home improvement project. "Why would you ever buy from someone who started out by lying to you? Why in the world would you trust anything else they said and give them your money? What are the chances that it will turn out well?" How deluded can the Head Sales Weasels be to think that what they are doing will induce people to buy? It makes people run the other way, at top speed, and warn other people too!

 Just a hint. Guests can use cash for the security deposit and it will be returned in 90 days. No credit card to charge! At Smugglers Notch it might be worth it even if you forfeit the cash security deposit. 

I am almost ashamed to admit that we bought directly from Fairfield/Wyndham. I had never heard of TUG yet. A sorrier but wiser girl am I!  But I didn't spend what I did (platinum owner), pay the maintanence fees on all those points and guest reservation fees to put up with being disrespected and lied about by Wyndham employees. 

The standard in the hospitality industry is that all guests should be made to feel welcome and valued. This certainly isn't happening at Glacier Canyon or Smugglers Notch. For a world wide company with a reputation to protect Wyndham is certainly exposing themselves to a timeshare scam reputation that they will have a very hard time overcoming. Hard to believe that they are so short sighted that they can't see that this will reflect on every facet of the Wyndham name worldwide. 

A section of the questions on the Wyndham survey deals with your pride in being a Wyndham owner. Are you serious? I will be deeply ashamed to be associated with Wyndham if they don't clean up their act. It is only a matter of time before stories exposing what they are doing are start appearing on the internet, news programs, morning/latenight shows, newspapers, magazines. I can hardly wait til friends and family hear/read about it and start asking, "Hey isn't that the timeshare you own? I thought you said it was a good one to own." Oh yeah, that will be a proud moment.

Jan Macey


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## Beefnot

Wow, that was some venom. And I agree wholeheartedly.


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## SOS8260456

Wow!  I wonder what is happening at the Smokies resort.

Just wrote a long post and then deleted it.  Nothing Wyndham does surprises me anymore.  I can understand charges for the waterparks or for Smuggs activities, as long as those charges go directly towards paying for the Smuggs activities or maintaining the waterparks so that they owner's maintenance fees don't subsidize these unique offerings.  I cannot understand how they can get away with forcing a sales presentation.  Who owns these resorts, Wyndham's sales force?


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## rrlongwell

SOS8260456 said:


> Wow!  I wonder what is happening at the Smokies resort.
> 
> Just wrote a long post and then deleted it.  Nothing Wyndham does surprises me anymore.  I can understand charges for the waterparks or for Smuggs activities, as long as those charges go directly towards paying for the Smuggs activities or maintaining the waterparks so that they owner's maintenance fees don't subsidize these unique offerings.  I cannot understand how they can get away with forcing a sales presentation.  Who owns these resorts, Wyndham's sales force?



Are you refering to the Smokey Mountain new resort or the tried and true Smokey Mountain (the orginal Wyndham Resort).  The new one is the one with the Waterpark and the owers of the orginal one do not have any special rights regarding the use of it.


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## geekette

SkiTee said:


> If I were a Wyndham owner, I would be very unhappy if on the first day weeks were available, I couldn't get what I wanted because other Wyndham owners were snatching weeks just to rent them and make money.  That's exactly why you aren't allowed to rent RCI exchanges.



That's how it works in points systems.  Can happen to me, as well, in Bluegreen.  The Early Bird gets the worm.  If I am a late bird, how can I complain about being wormless?  I have the same chance to nab a res when the window opens.  I could also use my points to get ressies to rent them out.  Level playing field.

This is NOT the same thing as renting exchange reservations because owners are renting what they OWN.  Major difference vs exchange.  And not against any rules.


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## am1

My guests are never asked to go on a timeshare tour.  Wyndham most know they will not make a sale.


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## SOS8260456

rrlongwell said:


> Are you refering to the Smokey Mountain new resort or the tried and true Smokey Mountain (the orginal Wyndham Resort).  The new one is the one with the Waterpark and the owers of the orginal one do not have any special rights regarding the use of it.



I don't know much about the Smoky Mtns, so I don't know if the original Smokey Mtn resort has anything "extra" to offer its guests.  I am refering to the one with the onsite waterpark which is usually included when you reserve there.  Are those guests being targeted also?


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## rrlongwell

SOS8260456 said:


> I don't know much about the Smoky Mtns, so I don't know if the original Smokey Mtn resort has anything "extra" to offer its guests.  I am refering to the one with the onsite waterpark which is usually included when you reserve there.  Are those guests being targeted also?



Just talked with the Resort, the guest would probably get an invetation to attend a sales pitch, however, it is not required to get the wristbands needed for the waterpark.  The wrist band rules for guests are the same as the ones if the owner was present.


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## Luvstotravel

Sandi Bo said:


> I'm not sure the parking pass routine itself has been explained here and for someone who has not been to a Wyndham resort, the references may not make sense.
> 
> At most (if not all) Wyndham resorts the standard routine is to checkin at the front desk and then be directed to a 2nd desk for a parking pass.  The 2nd desk is where they hit you up (often quite aggressively) to attend a sales presentation, thus the talk about the parking passes.
> 
> I am sorry you have had such a difficult time arranging your plans for Smugglers Notch. We stayed there in December and had a wonderful time. As an owner, I had NO IDEA the pass was such a big deal. It gave us a slight discount at the slopes and stores, in December that's all it was good for for us.
> 
> Wyndham resort management (checkin desk, housekeeping, etc) and sales are 2 separate operations. My experiences have been great with the resort management. Once you get past the sales presentation issues, whether it's your unique to Smugglers Notch pass issue and/or getting your parking pass you should have a wonderful time at Smuggs.



I read this thread because I'm at a Wyndham resort, our first Wyndham timeshare, right now.  

During check-in, I wondered why we had to go to one desk to get our room assignment and key cards, and then step over to another desk to get our parking pass.  At the second desk, the woman we spoke to seemed very interested in our plans, which I thought was odd-it's none of her business what we plan to do!  :annoyed: 

Anyhow, we got out parking pass and left.  It seemed so weird-why couldn't we have just gotten the parking pass along with our room key card?   

Now I get it!  It's just me and my teen daughter.  My husband isn't with us on this trip.  :whoopie:  That must be why they are leaving us alone!


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## bnoble

> If I were a Wyndham owner, I would be very unhappy if on the first day weeks were available, I couldn't get what I wanted because other Wyndham owners were snatching weeks just to rent them and make money.


Every owner has the same chance at the reservation, no matter what they are using it for.  I'm not much of a renter---I'm mostly an own-to-use kind of guy.  But it seems to me that if someone owns the points, they can use them as they wish.  And, renting is explicitly allowed, even though Wyndam has clearly been employing policies to make it slightly harder and slightly less lucrative.

If you want that hard-to-get reservation, you have to plan ahead.  That's true whether people are renting or not.


----------



## Beefnot

Sure, all owners may have the same shot at reserving, but when there are more requests than units available, some owners will inevitably lose.  I find it difficult to swallow that owners who intended to occupy were unable to do so because profit-minded owners won the reservation lotto.

I would love to see certain weeks (i.e., the prime ones which are immediately all booked up) designated as restricted use weeks whereby renting would not necessarily be forbidden, but guest certs would not be extended until a certain number of days before check-in.  This would create a real crimp in the desirability for owners to rent out prime units.

Now, as I write this, I realize a somewhat sizable hole in my anti-rent logic.  I am not into renting out units, but I am into exchanging.  I want to be able to reserve and deposit the highest value weeks for maximum trade power.  What is the material difference between someone who reserves a primo week to rent out and someone who reserves it to deposit with an exchange company?  In both cases, they are not reserving to use, right?  Eh, hm, let me think about that one...


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## ronparise

Beefnot said:


> Sure, all owners may have the same shot at reserving, but when there are more requests than units available, some owners will inevitably lose.  I find it difficult to swallow that owners who intended to occupy were unable to do so because profit-minded owners won the reservation lotto.
> 
> I would love to see certain weeks (i.e., the prime ones which are immediately all booked up) designated as restricted use weeks whereby renting would not necessarily be forbidden, but guest certs would not be extended until a certain number of days before check-in.  This would create a real crimp in the desirability for owners to rent out prime units.
> 
> Now, as I write this, I realize a somewhat sizable hole in my anti-rent logic.  I am not into renting out units, but I am into exchanging.  I want to be able to reserve and deposit the highest value weeks for maximum trade power.  What is the material difference between someone who reserves a primo week to rent out and someone who reserves it to deposit with an exchange company?  In both cases, they are not reserving to use, right?  Eh, hm, let me think about that one...



Love the open mind

I think the key words here are "reserving to use".  Then we have to define "use"

Is it for personal use? use to exchange?, use as a gift? or in my case,  use to rent?

In any case an owner is using something that is his for his own purpose. And whatever my purpose; if I get the reservation someone else wont...I dont see the difference.

For the record,  of the 60 reservations I have rented this year, 50 of them were rented in the 60 days ahead of check in, That guest cert solution would require some changes in the way I work, but not much...bottom line, it wouldnt slow me down much


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## bnoble

> In any case an owner is using something that is his for his own purpose. And whatever my purpose; if I get the reservation someone else wont...I dont see the difference.


I don't see the difference either---and not because I'm a renter, but because I just don't see the difference.

It's pretty simple, really. If you want a hard-to-get reservation, you get yourself online *before* the site opens for business, and you get those refresh-clicking fingers ready.  If you can't do that, then that reservation is going to go to someone who can.  Yes, this means you need to plan ahead, but we all knew that when we bought---or at least, we should have.  

Even in light of that, the system is large enough that there are still plenty of "good" vacations out there even for people who can't plan that far ahead.


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## SOS8260456

ronparise said:


> Love the open mind
> 
> I think the key words here are "reserving to use".  Then we have to define "use"
> 
> Is it for personal use? use to exchange?, use as a gift? or in my case,  use to rent?
> 
> In any case an owner is using something that is his for his own purpose. And whatever my purpose; if I get the reservation someone else wont...I dont see the difference.
> 
> For the record,  of the 60 reservations I have rented this year, 50 of them were rented in the 60 days ahead of check in, That guest cert solution would require some changes in the way I work, but not much...bottom line, it wouldnt slow me down much



Ron,
Couldn't have said it better.


----------



## Beefnot

bnoble said:


> I don't see the difference either---and not because I'm a renter, but because I just don't see the difference.



But there is a difference, a philosophical difference first and foremost.  If you believe that, all things being equal, there should be some prioritization given to the owner who intends to occupy a unit over an owner who intends to earn a profit by renting the unit to a non-owner, then you would prefer to see a system operate in a fashion that attempts to provide such deference.  If you do not place any particular virtue on occupying over renting, then as far as you're concerned, whoever gets the unit first wins, irrespective of what s/he plans to do with it, period.

I am philosphically in the former camp.  I strongly symphathize with those who are attempting to occupy but are crowded out by those who have no intention to do so.  I am not the type of person who, on Black Friday, after having waited for hours in line to purchase a 50" flat screen for $199, would be perfectly okay with the guy ahead of me buying all 20 of the available units just so he could peddle them on ebay.  Just as I am appreciative of store policies that attempt to curb such behavior for the aggregate net benefit of its customers, I would be appreciative of similar policies on the part of timeshare resorts.  Well, that is, as long as I am not denied the ability to deposit the week into II...


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## bnoble

> I am philosphically in the former camp.


So, how do you tell the difference between Ron renting the unit out and me giving the unit to a friend of mine as a wedding present (something I've done)?  Or, are both "secondary" to me using the unit myself?

Ultimately, if you wanted a system which favored use over renting, you probably should not have bought into a system that explicitly allows its owners to rent.  What's more, as far as I know, Wyndham owners can rent, but *can't* reserve and deposit specific weeks into II.  I know we cannot into RCI, and I think II has the same restriction.


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## bnoble

Here's the reason why I just don't get worked up over all of this---my most recent reservation was one of those very hard-to-get ones: a 2BR during Easter/Spring Break/Cherry Blossom at Alexandria for 2013.  I don't own there, so did not use ARP, just a standard 10 month reservation.  True, I got up early and camped out on the web site to make sure I could get it, but everyone has that same chance.  And, if they are gone during ARP, well, that's the price of not owning at that resort.


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## Twinkstarr

bnoble said:


> Here's the reason why I just don't get worked up over all of this---my most recent reservation was one of those very hard-to-get ones: a 2BR during Easter/Spring Break/Cherry Blossom at Alexandria for 2013.  I don't own there, so did not use ARP, just a standard 10 month reservation.  True, I got up early and camped out on the web site to make sure I could get it, but everyone has that same chance.  And, if they are gone during ARP, well, that's the price of not owning at that resort.



While I own at OTA, I had to fall back on the 10 month window last yr to get the 2br I needed for Easter/Spring Break(was using point pool points). Yes I was logged in and ready to go at 7am and got my reservation. It's a lesson I've learned when playing the 7 month window with DVC. I'm also 2 for 2 in getting one of the DVC Vero Beach Beach Cottages for spring break(only 6, so I am online right at 8am).

 While I was at OTA this spring break, it was the DVC 7 month window for my November trip and logged on just prior to 8am and was able to book a 2br at the Grand Californian at DL.


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## rrlongwell

bnoble said:


> So, how do you tell the difference between Ron renting the unit out and me giving the unit to a friend of mine as a wedding present (something I've done)?  ...



I do not know if Ron is a mega rentor.  I am not sure he would qualify.  I think he indicated once that a mega renter would have 10 million Wyndham points.  To me the question is does he take more than two or three units during the ARP period at a high demand resort in a high demand week.  If he does than there is your difference.  If he does not than probably no difference.

I do not know, but from his posts I do not think he passed Extra Holidays etc. yet.


----------



## Beefnot

bnoble said:


> So, how do you tell the difference between Ron renting the unit out and me giving the unit to a friend of mine as a wedding present (something I've done)?  Or, are both "secondary" to me using the unit myself?



I can't tell the difference.  Although I could theoretically institute a restriction that I would not issue a guest cert until <30 days from check in.  The friend you are giving it to would have no issue with it because s/he knows you and trusts you.  A renter on the other hand would likely be less comfortable with renting well in advance on the expectation that you would get it worked out at the <30 day mark.

Like I said before, I do recognize the logical flaw--perhaps fatal--in how I feel about renting vs. exchanging.  But like all brilliant logicians, I'll find a way to logically subordinate renting to exchanging.  As for the intellectual honesty of said rationale, well that's another matter...


----------



## csxjohn

Beefnot said:


> I am not the type of person who, on Black Friday, after having waited for hours in line to purchase a 50" flat screen for $199, would be perfectly okay with the guy ahead of me buying all 20 of the available units just so he could peddle them on ebay.  Just as I am appreciative of store policies that attempt to curb such behavior for the aggregate net benefit of its customers, I would be appreciative of similar policies on the part of timeshare resorts.  Well, that is, as long as I am not denied the ability to deposit the week into II...



Not the same at all.

The 50 timeshares were already purchased.  Now the owner is waiting in line to pick his weeks.  You are not at the end of that line.  You are at the front if you want to me.

When that owner bought those 50 weeks he knew that renting is allowed and he is paying MFs for those 50 units. Otherwise they  may be sitting vacant and you might be called on to kick in extra money to pay those missing fees.


----------



## ace2000

The timeshare industry is the epitome of selfishness.  I could give several examples.

In this matter, if you're a owner with one unit, you'll see it one way.  If you're a mega-renter, you'll see it differently.  And it all comes down to one's self interests.


----------



## am1

ace2000 said:


> The timeshare industry is the epitome of selfishness.  I could give several examples.
> 
> In this matter, if you're a owner with one unit, you'll see it one way.  If you're a mega-renter, you'll see it differently.  And it all comes down to one's self interests.



Or, "First come, first serve", "The early bird gets the worm" or "those that fail to plan, plan to fail". 

No one has ever presented a better way than how it is now.


----------



## Beefnot

csxjohn said:


> Not the same at all.
> 
> The 50 timeshares were already purchased.  Now the owner is waiting in line to pick his weeks.  You are not at the end of that line.  You are at the front if you want to me.
> 
> When that owner bought those 50 weeks he knew that renting is allowed and he is paying MFs for those 50 units. Otherwise they  may be sitting vacant and you might be called on to kick in extra money to pay those missing fees.



It is the same at all. You are attempting to eliminate comparability by creating a distinction without any practical difference. That reserving a week also necessitates ownership, which does not pre-exist in the retail purchase scenario, has absolutely no bearing on the underlying concept. The concept between both examples is very much the same. You don't have to accept the premise, but at least acknowledge the comparative reasoning.


----------



## Beefnot

am1 said:


> Or, "First come, first serve", "The early bird gets the worm" or "those that fail to plan, plan to fail".
> 
> No one has ever prevented a better better way than how it is now.



There are better ways, but of course we would not agree on what constitutes better.


----------



## JimMIA

Does anyone here have the faintest recollection of what the subject matter of this thread might be?


----------



## rrlongwell

JimMIA said:


> Does anyone here have the faintest recollection of what the subject matter of this thread might be?



The following is a copy of the original post for those that forgot.  But, I love the tangents it went on.

"I have to share this story somewhere. I am irate with Smuggler's Notch. I do not know if this is a Wyndham-wide problem, but I have to share.

I found a timeshare rental online for Smuggler's Notch. By renting from the owner, we save a lot of money over going through the resort. I got the reservation information from the owner and called the resort to make sure that the listing was legit and that I understood everything before booking. They explained to me that because I am a "guest", in order to use the full facility (all pools, camps, lake, activity room, etc.) I would need to purchase a Smuggs Pass for appx. $350 and that to purchase the pass I would have to sit through a 120 minute presentation. This is a bit of a pain, but since its saving me quite a bit of money, I agree. At least my husband and kids can enjoy the morning, and maybe we will end up buying here...

I make my reservation with the owner. I call owner services. She checks that I am in the system (both my name and my husband's name appear on the reservation). She confirms that I am all set, once again reminding me that I have to sit through the presentation. Then I send my final payment to the person I am renting from.

They call me a day later to schedule the presentation and tell me that if I am coming in with my spouse, BOTH of us have to sit through this thing. So I have to pay $160 to put my kids in camp and use my husband's valuable vacation time so we can listen to their pitch? I complain, telling them that if this is their policy they really need to explain it to people up front before they book. I asked them to check with a supervisor to see if they can make an exception since we they failed to communicate this policy in a timely way. 24 hrs later, I get a call. Their answer: sorry, policy is policy.

They are forcing this issue. They failed to communicate the policy in a timely way. Have they succeeded in trying to sell me a timeshare? Heck no. I was interested before, but not now. My husband works 90 hrs a week in a high stress field, which means we have the money to actually buy a timeshare, but he can't devote time to it like this. He told me point blank that we can't buy something like this if he can't delegate it all to me, because he just can't have one more more thing on his plate right now.

Way to go, Wyndham, alienating the very people who can afford to buy your product but don't have the time to put both spouses on the job!"


----------



## geekette

Beef, you lost me at "It is the same at all", so I'll just address what you were previously saying as a change to making reservations vs attempting to address the tv buying scenario.

My problem with changing res process is having to decide how the week will be used at time of reservation.  I own, I shouldn't have to decide until the week comes up on the calendar.  Advance renters absolutely may not like not having a res in their name until very near.    

Hurting rentals/owners trying to rent out is not a solution.  Planning ahead and being flexible are the main things a person has control over, not the plans of others.  It is the same with exchanging, this is why people put in 'ongoing requests' and so forth - to get in line IN CASE what they want shows up.    

There are no guarantees in timesharing.  The more one attempts to be in prime places at prime times, the more one must plan ahead To Have A Chance of getting a reservation or exchange or rental.  

that part is like the tv scenario - you should have made it in line AHEAD OF that guy to get a tv.  




Beefnot said:


> It is the same at all. You are attempting to eliminate comparability by creating a distinction without any practical difference. That reserving a week also necessitates ownership, which does not pre-exist in the retail purchase scenario, has absolutely no bearing on the underlying concept. The concept between both examples is very much the same. You don't have to accept the premise, but at least acknowledge the comparative reasoning.


----------



## Beefnot

geekette said:


> Beef, you lost me at "It is the same at all", so I'll just address what you were previously saying as a change to making reservations vs attempting to address the tv buying scenario.
> 
> My problem with changing res process is having to decide how the week will be used at time of reservation.  I own, I shouldn't have to decide until the week comes up on the calendar.  Advance renters absolutely may not like not having a res in their name until very near.
> 
> Hurting rentals/owners trying to rent out is not a solution.  Planning ahead and being flexible are the main things a person has control over, not the plans of others.  It is the same with exchanging, this is why people put in 'ongoing requests' and so forth - to get in line IN CASE what they want shows up.
> 
> There are no guarantees in timesharing.  The more one attempts to be in prime places at prime times, the more one must plan ahead To Have A Chance of getting a reservation or exchange or rental.
> 
> that part is like the tv scenario - you should have made it in line AHEAD OF that guy to get a tv.




"It is the same at all" was the counter to "It is not the same at all".  I should have bold underlined the "*is*".

I really was trying to bite my tongue fingers and not continue this monumental digression, but alas I am Pavlovian and will thus keep right on.  

I was really only speaking to super-prime weeks where rules would be changed such that deference was given to those who intend to occupy (or perhaps give away to their family).

Along the lines of the bird-worm example that was made, all the birds are given equal opportunity to catch the worm at 6am...if they intend to eat the worm.  Now, the bird is free to discard the worm soon after catching it if they decide, eh, they don't really need it.  But if instead they catch the worm with the express intent to sell it to some other bird, or if they later decide they are not hungry and actually need to sell it to another bird, then they are also free to do so...but not until 5 p.m, toward the end of the day when the worm is not as fresh and juicy as it was early in the morning. Thus, birds need to think long and hard before they snap up that worm.

Of course, I am beginning with the fundamental premise that owners who have purchased into their resort with the intent to occupy should be given some reasonable (please no squabbling over what the definition of is is) opportunity to do so over another owner who does not intend to do so.  If you reject that premise then I suppose we will argue to, through, and around each other.

Good debate.  Would have made for a nice separate thread.

Back to this current thread, why do Wyndham owners put up with such abysmal behavior from Wyndham Sales?  Granted, I don't have any specific notions about what to do, but I do believe that I wouldn't sit idly by and do nothing.


----------



## JimMIA

I think those of you who are talking about renting give the Wyndham sales weasels far more credit than they deserve -- and especially the body-snatchers.

Do you really think they care whether any existing owner rents their points??? C'mon, people!  

All they care about is getting people to take tours (body snatchers) and selling Wyndham points (weasels).

First of all, we have only two anectdotal examples of sales personnel telling guests they had to take a tour to get some benefit.  From those two isolated incidents, we're trying to make this a catastrophic event that has "...gone viral" on the Internet, in the words of one poster.  It's Chicken Little all over again.

My guess is this is simply something that was tried in one location, worked on a few oblivious guests, and was picked up by another location to try.  

In the long run, I think it will not increase their sales and they will stop it.  Not because they have any ethics or care about their employer's reputation, but simply because it doesn't work over time.


----------



## e.bram

Wyndham sales closed up shop in Newport, RI. I miss my freebies!


----------



## Beefnot

JimMIA said:


> Do you really think they care whether any existing owner rents their points??? C'mon, people!
> 
> All they care about is getting people to take tours (body snatchers) and selling Wyndham points (weasels)..



They quite possibly prefer owners renting for that very reason.


----------



## geekette

Beefnot said:


> "It is the same at all" was the counter to "It is not the same at all".  I should have bold underlined the "*is*".
> 
> I really was trying to bite my tongue fingers and not continue this monumental digression, but alas I am Pavlovian and will thus keep right on.
> 
> I was really only speaking to super-prime weeks where rules would be changed such that deference was given to those who intend to occupy (or perhaps give away to their family).
> 
> Along the lines of the bird-worm example that was made, all the birds are given equal opportunity to catch the worm at 6am...if they intend to eat the worm.  Now, the bird is free to discard the worm soon after catching it if they decide, eh, they don't really need it.  But if instead they catch the worm with the express intent to sell it to some other bird, or if they later decide they are not hungry and actually need to sell it to another bird, then they are also free to do so...but not until 5 p.m, toward the end of the day when the worm is not as fresh and juicy as it was early in the morning. Thus, birds need to think long and hard before they snap up that worm.
> 
> Of course, I am beginning with the fundamental premise that owners who have purchased into their resort with the intent to occupy should be given some reasonable (please no squabbling over what the definition of is is) opportunity to do so over another owner who does not intend to do so.  If you reject that premise then I suppose we will argue to, through, and around each other.
> 
> Good debate.  Would have made for a nice separate thread.
> 
> Back to this current thread, why do Wyndham owners put up with such abysmal behavior from Wyndham Sales?  Granted, I don't have any specific notions about what to do, but I do believe that I wouldn't sit idly by and do nothing.



Maybe this will become a separate thread as it does have interesting aspects to it.  Sorry, OP, but glad your issue is resolved!  You certainly sparked something and that's good.  A light needed to shine on some things.

I still believe that if you own where you want to go, there is no problem.  If you own a mini-system/points system, you should still have priority to claim what you own.  Does it work that way in Wyndham?  If not, there's teh answer - let owners grab THEIR weeks, then points owners can jockey for what's left.  

If a person like me simply bought points with no concern as to underlying week, well, then, that was my option to not care about claiming my week.  If I care so much about Easter at Resort X then I had better be ON IT when that res window opens.  Just like everyone else that wants the same thing.  OR, I can buy that week, just like anyone else can (if it is available somewhere).  

The appeal of a points system is Choices.  If people en masse make the same choices, there will be collision at reservation time, but it still is nobody's business how the booker wishes to use that week once they hold the reservation.  That, to me, is the best part - CHOICE.  Use, give to someone (no $), rent ($).

If someone dislikes everyone else having the same options, they can buy something else or use their ownership another way.  But the rules are the rules and if someone renting out reservations is allowed, I'm not ever going to get worked up about it.   We all also have the option of renting from an owner.    Mega renters in theory have lower per point cost so I could conceivably rent cheaper than own.  How is that bad for me??


----------



## Beefnot

geekette said:


> If a person like me simply bought points with no concern as to underlying week, well, then, that was my option to not care about claiming my week.



Touche....


----------



## csxjohn

Beefnot said:


> It is the same at all. You are attempting to eliminate comparability by creating a distinction without any practical difference. That reserving a week also necessitates ownership, which does not pre-exist in the retail purchase scenario, has absolutely no bearing on the underlying concept. The concept between both examples is very much the same. You don't have to accept the premise, but at least acknowledge the comparative reasoning.



Although I respect your knowledge and your posts are enlightening, I still don't see this as the same.

When lined up to buy the TV the person in front of you took the last 50 sets and left you with none.

When reserving timeshares everyone is lined up on a starting line, rather than one behind the other, and when the gun goes off, the first one to grab a week has to start the race all over again.  Everyone has an equal chance to secure those super prime weeks.

I do have an open mind so if I'm missing something, someone let me know.


----------



## ronparise

csxjohn said:


> Although I respect your knowledge and your posts are enlightening, I still don't see this as the same.
> 
> When lined up to buy the TV the person in front of you took the last 50 sets and left you with none.
> 
> When reserving timeshares everyone is lined up on a starting line, rather than one behind the other, and when the gun goes off, the first one to grab a week has to start the race all over again.  Everyone has an equal chance to secure those super prime weeks.
> 
> I do have an open mind so if I'm missing something, someone let me know.



Thats pretty much how I see it, However like Beefnot, I see other arguments. but I tend to rationalize a bit and pick the argument that will benefit me first


----------



## tschwa2

csxjohn said:


> Although I respect your knowledge and your posts are enlightening, I still don't see this as the same.
> 
> When lined up to buy the TV the person in front of you took the last 50 sets and left you with none.
> 
> When reserving timeshares everyone is lined up on a starting line, rather than one behind the other, and when the gun goes off, the first one to grab a week has to start the race all over again.  Everyone has an equal chance to secure those super prime weeks.
> 
> I do have an open mind so if I'm missing something, someone let me know.



But what about the guy who grabs 50 tv's and then 9.5 months later comes back to return the 15 that he couldn't sell and picks 50 more?  It'a the way the system works and if you are trying to make money you have to take advantage but the system certainly could have been made to protect the "little" owners a bit more.


----------



## csxjohn

tschwa2 said:


> But what about the guy who grabs 50 tv's and then 9.5 months later comes back to return the 15 that he couldn't sell and picks 50 more?  It'a the way the system works and if you are trying to make money you have to take advantage but the system certainly could have been made to protect the "little" owners a bit more.



If those weeks can be retured I do see a problem with the set up of the system and don't like it.

If we're taling about the super prime weeks, I doubt they can't be rented out.

I'm trying to understand the Wnydham Points systems, that's why I watch these threads and comment on them.

For an individual owner to try to secure the week he wants,  now has to watch for weeks being turned in and that doesn't allow for planning ahead for a vaca.

I understand the plight of both Beef and Ron.  Ron bought his points to rent them out, all legal and within the rules.  Beef would like to see the scales tipped toward the own to use points owners, where the majority (I think) of TS owners fall.

If Wyndham retail sales start to slip, an attempt to find the cause may change the rules to intice new buyers.  To me, this is a major flaw in any points system.  

Just when you think you're all set, the rules get changed and now you're not sitting where you were the day before and you have no say in the process.


----------



## SOS8260456

csxjohn said:


> Just when you think you're all set, the rules get changed and now you're not sitting where you were the day before and you have no say in the process.



And Wyndham is big on doing this.


----------



## am1

SOS8260456 said:


> And Wyndham is big on doing this.



Just have to be innovative.


----------



## geekette

csxjohn said:


> For an individual owner to try to secure the week he wants,  now has to watch for weeks being turned in and that doesn't allow for planning ahead for a vaca.
> .



If that person wants a specific week, it only stands to reason that they not quit looking after that first days plucks them all up.  If at first it is all booked up, try, try again.  

Someone not willing to keep trying does not want the week as badly as the person trying every day to get a week turned in.  Again, Any Owner could do this.  If someone is not willing to keep looking, I have to think that it is not that important to them.  

Those cancellations could come at any time, so planning ahead isn't something to Give Up on Day 2.   Although I am certain that many do.


----------



## cotraveller

geekette said:


> If that person wants a specific week, it only stands to reason that they not quit looking after that first days plucks them all up.  If at first it is all booked up, try, try again.
> 
> Someone not willing to keep trying does not want the week as badly as the person trying every day to get a week turned in.  Again, Any Owner could do this.  If someone is not willing to keep looking, I have to think that it is not that important to them.
> 
> Those cancellations could come at any time, so planning ahead isn't something to Give Up on Day 2.   Although I am certain that many do.



WorldMark solves this problem with the wait list.  Cancelled reservations go to the wait list first. That means you don't have to continually look, you put your desired time on the wait list and when a cancellation occurs that matches your request you are notified and can book it.

Only if there are no current wait list requests for the cancelled days do they go to general availability.


----------



## FormerSmuggsChild

*Smuggs Owner: regular or Wyndham?*



shifty1981 said:


> 3. Only renters from a Wyndham owner supposedly has to attend this presentation, not renters of regular smuggs owners (via RCI weeks/points or partial year owners). This is the vast majority of owners. It's another advantage for us. So when you rent try to find a non-Wyndham owner and avoid this hassle.
> 
> .



Sorry, not trying to be dense but I probably am. How do I know if I am a "regular Smuggs owner" or subject to new Wyndham rules?  

You can see my whole background in my thread under the "Newbie" section but briefly my brother and I recently inherited fixed week 34 in Oaks and a floater week at Smuggs. Our mother was an RCI member and we have several banked weeks. We are trying to learn about timeshares and decide what the financially responsible thing is to do. So... We are looking at renting and that led to the issue of exchanges and that we are Wyndham-owned, except you say only some of Smuggs is. How do I know where we fall? What rental rules are we subject to?

Thanks,
FormerSmuggsChild


----------



## WinniWoman

FormerSmuggsChild said:


> Sorry, not trying to be dense but I probably am. How do I know if I am a "regular Smuggs owner" or subject to new Wyndham rules?
> 
> You can see my whole background in my thread under the "Newbie" section but briefly my brother and I recently inherited fixed week 34 in Oaks and a floater week at Smuggs. Our mother was an RCI member and we have several banked weeks. We are trying to learn about timeshares and decide what the financially responsible thing is to do. So... We are looking at renting and that led to the issue of exchanges and that we are Wyndham-owned, except you say only some of Smuggs is. How do I know where we fall? What rental rules are we subject to?
> 
> Thanks,
> FormerSmuggsChild



Sounds like you are a "regular" Smuggs owner with membership in RCI, not Wyndham. (Keep in mind Wyndham is part of RCI, just to confuse matters). Whether or not your mom owned the fixed/floater as a "weeks" owner or an RCI points owner, you need to find that out from the resort. Several years ago, the resort started to offer conversions to RCI points and all inventory was sold through the resort as RCI points. Then, a few years after that, Wyndham got involved and people are now offered conversion to Wyndham points and inventory is sold through them as Wyndham points. Your mother would have had to converted to Wyndham points in the past year or so in order to be considered "Wyndham".

Many original Smuggs owners did not convert to Wyndham points (me being one of them), and many still did not convert to RCI points either (I didn't do that either), so they are still weeks owners. In any event, if you are an RCI weeks or points owner, as opposed to Wyndham, it is easier to rent out the units because your renters won't have the hassle of being restricted to buying the Smuggs Activities pass by being required to attend a Wyndham sales presentation. You can just rent the unit and inform the renters about having to purchase the pass from the resort if they want to. When you rent, you are renting the unit only. Renters will have access to the Courtside pool, but not the other pools like Notchville Park, Mountainside and Rum Runners, and other activities, unless they buy the pass.

Just my two cents-unless you are planning to use this timeshare every year, either going to Smuggs or exchanging it, I would not count on being able to rent it. Better to let it go to rid yourself of the yearly maintenance fees. Just so you know- as you asked this on the Newbie thread- it is very difficult to rent a float week being it is off-season. Floats are assigned by the resort and they are different week every year (like in Oct, Nov, May, etc.). There is a 20 year owners float schedule on the Smuggs website, or the resort can give you that information. You could exchange the floats every year, but you have to pay RCI membership fees every year, plus pay to exchange them! That could run about $300 dollars total, plus the $780 maintenance fee!You could, of course, use the floater week by just going to the resort at the assigned time, but it doesn't sound like that is something you will be able to do.

One more thing-you need to find out your mom's user name and password for the RCI site so you can see what she has banked there (maybe she wrote it down somewhere?)or at least get her membership number off her card if you have it and call RCI to see what's there. If membership expires in 2013,you don't really have any time to start the exchanges and you will most likely have to renew membership, since everything has to be planned years in advance to exchange-and that will cost money. And- you CANNOT RENT EXCHANGES. It might be best to let those banked weeks go also.

So sorry about your mom. My parents, too, had a timeshare at Waters Edge, in Ct.. My mom inherited money from her mother (my mom was already older-in her midlife)and bought the timeshare there as they never had vacations when she was young and she loved being by the water. We (husband and son-we were older-during our 20's, 30's and 40's) have many memories of going there each summer. Thankfully, my mom sold her timeshare after my dad passed away. We had considered taking it as my mom wanted my son to have it down the line since he grew up with it. But, we declined as we knew it would be a burden to him until he got financially settled. (he is 24 and nowhere near settled!). Mom started us into the timeshare thing early on with her Ct. timeshare and because of her (pre-death inheritance), we were able to buy at Smuggs when our son was young and have had wonderful vacations there and elsewhere with exchanges for the past 15 years.


----------



## rrlongwell

FormerSmuggsChild said:


> ... Our mother was an RCI member and we have several banked weeks. We are trying to learn about timeshares and decide what the financially responsible thing is to do. So... We are looking at renting and that led to the issue of exchanges and that we are Wyndham-owned, except you say only some of Smuggs is. How do I know where we fall? What rental rules are we subject to?
> 
> Thanks,
> FormerSmuggsChild



The issue is not always dollars and cents, I would look at paying Wyndham to convert the unit to Wyndham points (no new purchase) about $2500 dollars.  Then use it where you want if you do not want to use it at the resort every year.  If you do like the resort, keep it as is.


----------



## tschwa2

rrlongwell said:


> The issue is not always dollars and cents, I would look at paying Wyndham to convert the unit to Wyndham points (no new purchase) about $2500 dollars.  Then use it where you want if you do not want to use it at the resort every year.  If you do like the resort, keep it as is.



An owner I talked to went to the update, and instead of being offered the option to convert for $2500, she was offered the "opportunity" to trade in her deeded summer/float weeks and buy enough Club Access points to stay for the equivalent time each year.  The kicker was she would no longer be guaranteed any be assigned to section of the resort she originally bought and she would have to pay $40,000.  She said she nearly laughed her head off and couldn't imagine any owners converting on those terms.


----------



## rrlongwell

tschwa2 said:


> An owner I talked to went to the update, and instead of being offered the option to convert for $2500, she was offered the "opportunity" to trade in her deeded summer/float weeks and buy enough Club Access points to stay for the equivalent time each year.  The kicker was she would no longer be guaranteed any be assigned to section of the resort she originally bought and she would have to pay $40,000.  She said she nearly laughed her head off and couldn't imagine any owners converting on those terms.



If this option is used I would just call Coorporate Direct.  Call the reservations number and ask for them, they will transfer the call.


----------



## WinniWoman

rrlongwell said:


> If this option is used I would just call Coorporate Direct.  Call the reservations number and ask for them, they will transfer the call.



Are you saying that owners can bypass the Smuggs Wyndham sales office and call Wyndham corporate and just pay $2500 to convert? What Tracey stated above, that is the deal owners are being offered- paying anywhere from $25,000 to $40,000 to convert!

Honestly, I think these young people should not acceot the inheritance. Someday, they can rent at Smuggs if they want or elsewhere or buy a timeshare/points on e-bay or wherever when they are financially ready to do so.


----------



## SOS8260456

rrlongwell said:


> The issue is not always dollars and cents, I would look at paying Wyndham to convert the unit to Wyndham points (no new purchase) about $2500 dollars.  Then use it where you want if you do not want to use it at the resort every year.  If you do like the resort, keep it as is.



Before paying Wyndham any money to convert to points, I would just get rid of this ownership.  You can pick up a lot of Wyndham points on the resale market for $2500.


----------



## ronparise

mpumilia said:


> Are you saying that owners can bypass the Smuggs Wyndham sales office and call Wyndham corporate and just pay $2500 to convert? What Tracey stated above, that is the deal owners are being offered- paying anywhere from $25,000 to $40,000 to convert!
> 
> Honestly, I think these young people should not acceot the inheritance. Someday, they can rent at Smuggs if they want or elsewhere or buy a timeshare/points on e-bay or wherever when they are financially ready to do so.



The sales force was probably trying to offer a free conversion of the fixed week...Its free with a new purchase. 

They should also be able to offer you the $2500 conversion

One tactic Ive used at these presentations is to let the salesman know I have a working relationship with one of the corporate sales people. and that when I buy I want them to get the commission. They know what I want and have promised to call me when something comes available that meets my criteria.


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## rrlongwell

mpumilia said:


> Are you saying that owners can bypass the Smuggs Wyndham sales office and call Wyndham corporate and just pay $2500 to convert? What Tracey stated above, that is the deal owners are being offered- paying anywhere from $25,000 to $40,000 to convert!
> 
> Honestly, I think these young people should not acceot the inheritance. Someday, they can rent at Smuggs if they want or elsewhere or buy a timeshare/points on e-bay or wherever when they are financially ready to do so.



I believe that is correct.  If you do not want more maintance fees or points, it may make since.  Once upon a time, I saw a post indicating Wyndham Corporate Sales could cut a price break.  I do not know if it was true or not.


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## WinniWoman

rrlongwell said:


> I believe that is correct.  If you do not want more maintance fees or points, it may make since.  Once upon a time, I saw a post indicating Wyndham Corporate Sales could cut a price break.  I do not know if it was true or not.



I am not following you.....What do you mean "if you do not want more maintenance fees or points"?


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## learnalot

mpumilia said:


> I am not following you.....What do you mean "if you do not want more maintenance fees or points"?



I think what he meant was that, if someone was interested in converting a fixed week to points they should just contact corporate directly for the conversion rather than letting sales convert the fixed week AND sell you additional points.


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## rrlongwell

learnalot said:


> I think what he meant was that, if someone was interested in converting a fixed week to points they should just contact corporate directly for the conversion rather than letting sales convert the fixed week AND sell you additional points.



You got it.  The short verision is do not buy another timeshare, from the developer or otherwise if all you want is access to the Wyndham points system.  Cheaper in the medium and long run to just take the upfront cost to convert and skip the costs of purchase and the maintance fees associated with the purchase.


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## WinniWoman

learnalot said:


> I think what he meant was that, if someone was interested in converting a fixed week to points they should just contact corporate directly for the conversion rather than letting sales convert the fixed week AND sell you additional points.



Sorry for being so dense, as I am not a Wyndham owner-just Smuggs. So, the sales staff tries to sell you additional points beyond what your fixed/floater weeks are worth and the price goes from $2500 (if you go through corporate) to $25,000 or $40,000 or whatever? Then, your maintenance fees go up because you have more points than your original fixed/floater weeks were worth (let's say in TPU's)? (I assume the same for the Smuggs RCI points owner?)

Also, no exchange fees in the Wyndham system-correct?


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## vacationhopeful

mpumilia said:


> Sorry for being so dense, as I am not a Wyndham owner-just Smuggs. ....Also, no exchange fees in the Wyndham system-correct?



Exchange fees - NO. But there _*CAN*_ be fees like Reservation Transactions (RTs), Housekeeping fees (HKs) and the hefty Guest Certificate (GC) fee ($99 vs RCI's fee). There is also a banking fee (to bank your points for up to 3 years within their system). And some of these fees hit for split week (7 night) transactions, short stays, cancelling and rebooking dates, and sending household members if a listed owner is coming late. It is a complex system, but you get a bunch of resorts you _might_ be able to use, if you know the system and plan ahead. But the best deals for non-VIPs is the RESORT SPECIALS which are discounted points stays listed on the web site up to 8 weeks in advance.


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## rrlongwell

mpumilia said:


> Sorry for being so dense, as I am not a Wyndham owner-just Smuggs. So, the sales staff tries to sell you additional points beyond what your fixed/floater weeks are worth and the price goes from $2500 (if you go through corporate) to $25,000 or $40,000 or whatever? Then, your maintenance fees go up because you have more points than your original fixed/floater weeks were worth (let's say in TPU's)? (I assume the same for the Smuggs RCI points owner?)
> 
> Also, no exchange fees in the Wyndham system-correct?



If you stay within  the Wyndham Vacation Resorts Club Wyndham Plus/Access system there are not exchange fees.  However, you can exchange into RCI and fees would be involved.

The points being discussed are not TPUs, they are designated points within the Club Wyndham Plus/Access system.  They are not anything you would be familiar with at this point.

More to come.


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## rrlongwell

mpumilia said:


> Sorry for being so dense, as I am not a Wyndham owner-just Smuggs. So, the sales staff tries to sell you additional points beyond what your fixed/floater weeks are worth and the price goes from $2500 (if you go through corporate) to $25,000 or $40,000 or whatever? Then, your maintenance fees go up because you have more points than your original fixed/floater weeks were worth (let's say in TPU's)? (I assume the same for the Smuggs RCI points owner?)
> 
> Also, no exchange fees in the Wyndham system-correct?



$2,395  is the conversion fee.  Denise 407 626-6847 is the person you would need to talk to at Coorporate Sales.  This option is not done through the resorts.  She also indicated that they have different inventory than the sales offices.  If you go through the Corporate Sales system, I am not sure they let you PIC any because of the step discounts they are giving.  They can sell re-pros real cheap.


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## WinniWoman

rrlongwell said:


> $2,395  is the conversion fee.  Denise 407 626-6847 is the person you would need to talk to at Coorporate Sales.  This option is not done through the resorts.  She also indicated that they have different inventory than the sales offices.  If you go through the Corporate Sales system, I am not sure they let you PIC any because of the step discounts they are giving.  They can sell re-pros real cheap.



Oh- well-I am not interested in converting myself. Just being a weeks smuggs owner, I was curious about how everything works. I am considering going on the presentation in the Fall for the incentive, but I wanted to have as much info. as possible to compare with what the sales people tell me. I like to know what is going on and what affects our resort. So, if you convert-you do not have your original unit anymore? So-that's different from when poeple converted to RCI points.


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## timeos2

mpumilia said:


> So, if you convert-you do not have your original unit anymore? So-that's different from when poeple converted to RCI points.



Yes. And yes.


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## learnalot

mpumilia said:


> Oh- well-I am not interested in converting myself. Just being a weeks smuggs owner, I was curious about how everything works. I am considering going on the presentation in the Fall for the incentive, but I wanted to have as much info. as possible to compare with what the sales people tell me. I like to know what is going on and what affects our resort. So, if you convert-you do not have your original unit anymore? So-that's different from when poeple converted to RCI points.



My understanding with converted fixed weeks (I don't have any) is that you retain ARP on your specific fixed week.  I think you can reserve it from 13 months until 10 months + 1 day.  If you don't, at 10 months it turns into points for that year and can be used epsewhere in the system.  Maybe someone with a fixed week can confirm this but it is my understanding from reading here.

Regardless, it is different than RCI points.


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## rrlongwell

mpumilia said:


> Oh- well-I am not interested in converting myself. Just being a weeks smuggs owner, I was curious about how everything works. I am considering going on the presentation in the Fall for the incentive, but I wanted to have as much info. as possible to compare with what the sales people tell me. I like to know what is going on and what affects our resort. So, if you convert-you do not have your original unit anymore? So-that's different from when poeple converted to RCI points.



No, that is not true.  If you convert your week to points, your Advance Reservation Priority is limited to your underlying week (bookings between the 13 month to 10 month point).  You can still have your week if you book it during the ARP period 10-13 months out.  If booked during the ARP period for your week and you change your mind, I do not know if you can cancel the ARP Booking and get your points back.  I would assume so, but have never tried it.  If anyone wanted to do this, I would check with Wyndham to confirm that it works that way.

Forgive a bad joke, do not forget to buy a million point Club Wyndham Access contract while you are there.  Welcome to Wyndhamland.


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## WinniWoman

rrlongwell said:


> No, that is not true.  If you convert your week to points, your Advance Reservation Priority is limited to your underlying week (bookings between the 13 month to 10 month point).  You can still have your week if you book it during the ARP period 10-13 months out.  If booked during the ARP period for your week and you change your mind, I do not know if you can cancel the ARP Booking and get your points back.  I would assume so, but have never tried it.  If anyone wanted to do this, I would check with Wyndham to confirm that it works that way.
> 
> Forgive a bad joke, do not forget to buy a million point Club Wyndham Access contract while you are there.  Welcome to Wyndhamland.



Thanks for explaining. So you could book your same unit/building/week as long as it is booked in the ARP period. Interesting.....Glad I am just a lowly weeks owner. This would all give me a headache if I had to deal with it every year. I'm all for simplicity! After all, I am going on vacation! Have enough stress during the work week!


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## antjmar

rrlongwell said:


> If booked during the ARP period for your week and you change your mind, I do not know if you can cancel the ARP Booking and get your points back.  I would assume so, but have never tried it.


Yes, you do get your points back (up to 15 days before check in).


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## rrlongwell

mpumilia said:


> Thanks for explaining. So you could book your same unit/building/week as long as it is booked in the ARP period. Interesting.....Glad I am just a lowly weeks owner. This would all give me a headache if I had to deal with it every year. I'm all for simplicity! After all, I am going on vacation! Have enough stress during the work week!



If you have a sense of humor, when you do the sales presentation at Smuglers, when the salesperson gets around to offering a low point contract for about 18,000 dollars, ask why a owner with a number of units at Smuglers could not convert 7 units to Wyndham points for the same price plus a little left over in change.  A rentor of Smuglers could then book all of the ARP rights and if they found someone that wanted a Wyndham Vacation Resorts unit, they could just cancell and rebook to a Wyndham resort.  Have the best of both worlds.  If you do this, you might get a real fast escort to gifting.


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## dxCoqui

rrlongwell said:


> If you have a sense of humor, when you do the sales presentation at Smuglers, when the salesperson gets around to offering a low point contract for about 18,000 dollars, ask why a owner with a number of units at Smuglers could not convert 7 units to Wyndham points for the same price plus a little left over in change.  A rentor of Smuglers could then book all of the ARP rights and if they found someone that wanted a Wyndham Vacation Resorts unit, they could just cancell and rebook to a Wyndham resort.  Have the best of both worlds.  If you do this, you might get a real fast escort to gifting.



My brain can not compute what you said.  It must be because I am a noob...


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## ronparise

dxCoqui said:


> My brain can not compute what you said.  It must be because I am a noob...



You're not alone


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## jjmanthei05

dxCoqui said:


> My brain can not compute what you said.  It must be because I am a noob...



Basically saying the same as if you go to bonnet creek and they offer you a 154,000 point contract for $20,000 and you ask what the difference is between that and the one on ebay for $1. 

Jason


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## WinniWoman

I am just trying to find out if a Smuggs owner who converts to Wyndham would get his same Smuggs condo as long as he books in the ARP period. (And- would he still have a deed?)


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## rrlongwell

mpumilia said:


> I am just trying to find out if a Smuggs owner who converts to Wyndham would get his same Smuggs condo as long as he books in the ARP period. (And- would he still have a deed?)



Yes to both.  Additionally, if for some strange reason, you wanted to unconvert the week, you can do so.  It would just cost a new reconversion fee to get the points back.


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## rrlongwell

jjmanthei05 said:


> Basically saying the same as if you go to bonnet creek and they offer you a 154,000 point contract for $20,000 and you ask what the difference is between that and the one on ebay for $1.
> 
> Jason



You are right, however an example such as you used would not work at this resort, I do not see any Smugler's timeshares on E-Bay.  I guess I am 50 50 on stump the expert issue.  One understood, one did not.


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