# The Truth about RCI.....long



## ttt (Jan 13, 2007)

Many, many posts have talked about diminished trading power, rentals by RCI, membership rules, etc. There have even been class action lawsuits filed. I think that many tuggers just don't understand how RCI views the industry & who their REAL customers are.
The truth is that RCI considers timeshare owners as MEMBERS and they charge MEMBERSHIP & other fees, but we are not their primary CUSTOMERS. The resort developers are RCI's CUSTOMERS, not timeshare owners. 
So when you look at the current rental situation or lack of availability for timeshare owners, it is helpful to understand that while RCI may be giving some displeasure to it's MEMBERS, it's CUSTOMERS are thrilled by RCI's actions. Lets take a look at why this is so:
When a timeshare owner exchanges into a new resort, RCI gets the exchange fee & the resort gets a guest for a week along with the associated costs. Maybe you will take the TS tour and by another timeshare at developer prices, but probably you wont. Probably you will take the free gift and run. Contrast this to when the rent a TS unit to the public, even at a bargain price below the maint. fee for that unit.....RCI gets a rental fee that is MORE then the exchange fee & their CUSTOMER(The Developers), get a fresh innocent, unsuspecting new potential owner who may buy at retail price. This makes RCI's CUSTOMERS very happy.
BTW, when we see bulk spacebanking, it is often because the resorts deposit many, many more units then is required for RCI affiliation in order to get new, potential owners. If we see these bulk spacebank deposits into RCI, it's sometimes because they were excess to the RENTAL market, so we 2nd class MEMBERS can now have the opportunity to exchange.
Personally, I think RCI has taken the wrong road. It will lead to the collapse of the Timeshare Industry, RCI just doesn't see it yet because they keep raising fees in order to keep the stockholders happy. Automation of the exchange process should have allowed RCI to keep it's rates stable. 
Just look at all the almost free timeshares on ebay that nobody wants. The truth is that most timeshares that do not have a 52 week or close, prime season are in trouble or will be in trouble as soon as their ownership revolts against the continually rising fees. As blue & white & some red week owners abandon their units, the resorts raise maint. fees for those remaining. When fees go above a breakpoint, which I believe is currently about $700, for a regular 2 BR timeshare(Not a Marriott, Hilton, Hyatt or the like), owners start looking for the deed. The previous value of a blue or white week was the ability to exchange it through RCI for something you wanted. Without the exchange value, there is no reason to own this type of week. That is what is happening now. Thousands of owners are giving up on exchanging these off season weeks, good only for Orlando & other overbuilt areas at this time. Add the high exchange fees, & maint. fees & it becomes a no brainer....
RCI needs to get the bus back on the road to industry growth, & keeping both their CUSTOMERS and their MEMBERS happy.


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## PeelBoy (Jan 13, 2007)

*Collapsing or Collapsed*

TTT, thanks for the analysis.  Do you think TS is collapsing or has collapsed?  If not yet, how soon?


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## ttt (Jan 13, 2007)

As long as the developers can build new & get them sold, they will continue to build & sell, but I see the future in whole ownership rather then timesharing. Think about how little it can cost to but a timeshare unit at a resort, say one of the Fairfields in Pompono Beach, Fl.. Multiply by 52 and you get a very low price for prime real estate. I realize there is more to an analysis them the sales price, but the varience in cost between buying 52 timeshare weeks and a whole ownership is several hundred thousand dollars. Timesharing became popular for developers because they could get much more by selling 52 individual weeks instead of 1 whole ownership. As selling timeshares for $15,000-$20,000. per week X 52=lots of money. When the builders can't get more for selling timeshares them selling whole units,  they will stop building and selling timeshares. This may actually help the industry as it will lessen the supply, but I think the popularity & success of timesharing is due to RCI & II. Exchanging is a big part of the timesharing fun. RCI needs to "turn the bus around" and recognise that timesharing depends on happy exchangers. I don't think timesharing would be where it is today without the exchange companies. Exchanging is one of the major selling points of timesharing. Without the healthty & supported exchange companies, timesharing will surely diminish in popularity. I don't know how long it will take for the exchange company bus to run off the mountain but I do know that I own way fewer timeshares then I did a few years ago. I think many tuggers are also reducing the amount of timeshares they own. I'm also exchanging alot less.....I think the formular for a collapsing timeshare industry is here already:
Rental costs< maint. fee + exchange fee. I'm not even considering that the owner has a purchase price & a renter does not.


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## Carolinian (Jan 13, 2007)

*Why buy the cow, when RCI is providing the milk for pennies?*

I disagree on one point.  RCI is actually undermining its ''customers'', its affiliated resorts, with its cheap rentals program, as well as its members.
When vacationers discover cheap timeshare rentals, they are not about to shell out lots of money to buy from a developer.  They are going to stick with the cheap rentals they have discovered.  Some developers may take a while to discover that.

I have reduced my own timeshare ownership, down to two summer OBX weeks I use or rent and two red traders elsewhere.  One of the traders is a tiger and one a mid-range.  I had been playing RCI for its last gasp of decent exchanges with the tiger trader until my membership runs out, but the way things are going, an independent will probably get that one, too, next time around.

HOA's have no developer sales going on, and it is in their interest to encourage their owners to diversify their exchange habits.  They don't need all of their eggs in the RCI basket.


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## short (Jan 13, 2007)

*Respectfully disagree.*

I disagree that timeshare industry is collapsing because of exchanging.

I just returned from the Marriott KoOlina.  Several people I talked to owned there.  A couple trading in using another Marriott.  I was the odd one trading in with a nonMarriott.

At the Westin St Johns.  The sales people said I was one lucky exchanger.  I go one of only 1 or 2 developer units deposited per year.  Based on the people I talked to I was an odd exchangers as all were owners.

At the Rushes in Sept week 37(an exchange through RCI) everyone I talked to were owners of fixed weeks who come every year.  One person said they had exchanged once in 5 years.

I am beginning to think we here on TUG are an anomaly not the norm.  If most RCI members don't get trades they will go to Orlando once and then back to there home resort.  As baby boomers retire they will fill up those white and blue weeks at the better resorts.  Marginal or poorly run resorts may fail but I think that is OK because maybe they should not have been built in the first place.

Just my humble opinion(and lilkely an unpopular one in this thread)

Short


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## dougp26364 (Jan 13, 2007)

Never mind, I should read before posting.


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## JLB (Jan 13, 2007)

Now I finally understand it all.


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## timeos2 (Jan 13, 2007)

*The old exchange model is fading fast*



ttt said:


> I think the popularity & success of tumesharing is due to RCI & II. Exchanging is a big part of the timesharing fun. RCI needs to "turn the bus around" and recognise that timesharing depends on happy exchangers. I don't think timesharing would be where it is today without the exchange companies. Exchanging is one of the major selling points of timesharing. Without the healthty & supported exchange companies, timesharing will surely diminish in popularity. I don't know how long it will take for the exchange company bus to run off the mountain but I do know that I own way fewer timeshares then I did a few years ago. I think many tuggers are also reducing the amount of timeshares they own. I'm also exchanging alot less.....I think the formular for a collapsing timeshare industry is here already:
> Rental costs< maint. fee + exchange fee. I'm not even considering that the owner has a purchase price & a renter does not.



While I have to agree that exchanging is no longer what it used to be I really feel it is the mini-systems that are driving the change rather than rentals. The newest and many of the best are no longer standalone weeks but part of a much larger mini such as Sunterra, Wyndham, DVC, etc.  They offer a far easier path to non-home resort use, at much lower cost, than any of the exchange companies do.  While they usually affiliate with one of the two big exchange systems they tend to get a priority for their members while giving up far less than the individual owners used to offer.  Whats left over in the traditional systems is just that - the leftovers.  The quality just isn't there anymore.  That dynamic more than anything else seems to be the undoing of the older style exchange programs.


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## PerryM (Jan 13, 2007)

*Not to worry*

RCI is twice as big as all their competition combined – the only thing RCI has to fear is itself.  Will RCI screw up and hurt itself – I personally doubt it.  Whatever RCI does, 95% of its members will happily do.  I believe that RCI has shot itself in the foot with rentals but it might mean a 1¢ reduction of shareholders dividends once.

We are currently staying in a 3BR Sands of Kahana which sells, resale, for $18,000 and has a MF of $1,100 and rents for about $2,000.  We exchanged into this place with 12,000 WM credits that cost 75¢ each to buy and a MF of 4¢.  We paid $480 + $129 or $609 to stay a week at a beautiful resort on the beach in Kahana, Maui.  II has bargains like this all the time.

I would hope that RCI has similar bargains; if they don’t and their members find little use for them then they will lose members.  I don’t use RCI for exchanges so I can’t comment.  Just guessing but I’m going to assume that RCI’s membership increases year after year and no matter what RCI does the same folks who gleefully spend 100% more than resale (by buying from that jovial salesrep) will gleefully use RCI – and be happy for any exchange they get.

I just don’t think we can overestimate the abuse RCI’s customers will endure and still pay their annual dues.


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## philemer (Jan 13, 2007)

PerryM said:


> We are currently staying in a 3BR Sands of Kahana which sells, resale, for $18,000 and has a MF of $1,100 and rents for about $2,000.



And you haven't signed up for the TUGGER "do" at Kimo's tomorrow afternoon? Can ya make it? Send me a PM.

Phil


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## bnoble (Jan 14, 2007)

> I am beginning to think we here on TUG are an anomaly not the norm.


This is a really interesting thought.  What fraction of timeshare owners *never* exchange?  What fraction of timeshare owners *do not* belong to *any* exchange company?  The numbers might be higher than we think.

After all, exchanging well requires planning---depositing your week early, searching early, doing your homework about what resorts are worth exchanging into...  I wonder if the average person works that hard on their vacation.

As a tangential example: the Unofficial Guide folks once published an estimate of the number of Disney World guests that bought *any* guidebook *at all* before visiting.  It was a shockingly low number---most people just show up, assuming that they'll figure it out as they go.


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## Carolinian (Jan 14, 2007)

Most of the mini-systems are very limited in their options.  Most have limited or no Europe or Caribbean, for example.  I cannot see laying out the money for their limited offerings.

What is driving the change is the greed of the big exchange companies who are manipulating the market.  RCI in the early days of GPN even sent out a letter from its CEO to affiliated resorts bragging that they were going to use their power as ''market leader'' to ''take timeshare to the mass market''.  We have seen in the years since what they meant by that phrase.  I posted that entire letter back when it came out on the old TUG boards.  RCI is the 1000 pound gorilla in the timeshare industry, and it HAS used that market power to manipulate the market.  Since it has controlled a couple of mini-systems, it has likely conformed their policies to its own overall policy.  RCI has been doing exactly what it told resorts in general terms it was going to do.  Blaming anyone else, like mini-systems, is a theory that just doesn't hold water.




timeos2 said:


> While I have to agree that exchanging is no longer what it used to be I really feel it is the mini-systems that are driving the change rather than rentals. The newest and many of the best are no longer standalone weeks but part of a much larger mini such as Sunterra, Wyndham, DVC, etc.  They offer a far easier path to non-home resort use, at much lower cost, than any of the exchange companies do.  While they usually affiliate with one of the two big exchange systems they tend to get a priority for their members while giving up far less than the individual owners used to offer.  Whats left over in the traditional systems is just that - the leftovers.  The quality just isn't there anymore.  That dynamic more than anything else seems to be the undoing of the older style exchange programs.


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## Carolinian (Jan 14, 2007)

AMong the several OBX resorts where I am aware of this data, about 70% do not participate in exchanging.




bnoble said:


> This is a really interesting thought.  What fraction of timeshare owners *never* exchange?  What fraction of timeshare owners *do not* belong to *any* exchange company?  The numbers might be higher than we think.
> 
> After all, exchanging well requires planning---depositing your week early, searching early, doing your homework about what resorts are worth exchanging into...  I wonder if the average person works that hard on their vacation.
> 
> As a tangential example: the Unofficial Guide folks once published an estimate of the number of Disney World guests that bought *any* guidebook *at all* before visiting.  It was a shockingly low number---most people just show up, assuming that they'll figure it out as they go.


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## BocaBum99 (Jan 14, 2007)

Carolinian said:


> Most of the mini-systems are very limited in their options.  Most have limited or no Europe or Caribbean, for example.  I cannot see laying out the money for their limited offerings.
> 
> What is driving the change is the greed of the big exchange companies who are manipulating the market.  RCI in the early days of GPN even sent out a letter from its CEO to affiliated resorts bragging that they were going to use their power as ''market leader'' to ''take timeshare to the mass market''.  We have seen in the years since what they meant by that phrase.  I posted that entire letter back when it came out on the old TUG boards.  RCI is the 1000 pound gorilla in the timeshare industry, and it HAS used that market power to manipulate the market.  Since it controls a couple of mini-systems, it has likely conformed their policies to its own overall policy.  RCI has been doing exactly what it told resorts in general terms it was going to do.  Blaming anyone else, like mini-systems, is a theory that just doesn't hold water.



You believe that mini's are limited in their options because you don't own any and you don't know how to use them.

Mini's have the greatest access to timesharing in the industry.

You can book any of the availabile units in the the system, you can exchange through just about any exchange system with the highest trading power possible, you can rent units, you can have a broader reach for direct exchange with other owners and you can use rental profits to rent other units you don't have access to.


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## timeos2 (Jan 14, 2007)

*We are below a minority*



bnoble said:


> This is a really interesting thought.  What fraction of timeshare owners *never* exchange?  What fraction of timeshare owners *do not* belong to *any* exchange company?  The numbers might be higher than we think.
> 
> After all, exchanging well requires planning---depositing your week early, searching early, doing your homework about what resorts are worth exchanging into...  I wonder if the average person works that hard on their vacation.



The percentage of informed buyers/sellers/users of timeshares - including everyone that takes part on TUG and the other timeshare sites - isn't likely to reach 2%.  It never ceases to amaze me how many people I run into that either own a timeshare, are planning to get one or who once owned one and dumped it in frustration. Nearly every one thinks they know how it all works yet in a 2 minute conversation it's clear that at best they are repeating a presentation line, haven't ever traded or, worst case, bought years ago and other than paying fees have hardly ever used it for anything! It is that super majority of the population that supports the retail side, RCI/II and feeds the low cost rental and resale machines. We don't stand a chance of changing that.  Class action success or not.


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## Carolinian (Jan 14, 2007)

My argument about their limitations has to do with the proposition put forward by some that their internal trading system makes exchange companies obsolete.  That is where the limitations come into play.  The only mini with any real presence in Europe, Sunterra, for example, now has their European operations up for sale.

I agree that exchange companies sometimes give an unfair preference to some of these systems, but again to even get to that point, one HAS to  USE the exchange companies rather than the internal mini-system trades.





BocaBum99 said:


> You believe that mini's are limited in their options because you don't own any and you don't know how to use them.
> 
> Mini's have the greatest access to timesharing in the industry.
> 
> You can book any of the availabile units in the the system, you can exchange through just about any exchange system with the highest trading power possible, you can rent units, you can have a broader reach for direct exchange with other owners and you can use rental profits to rent other units you don't have access to.


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## JLB (Jan 14, 2007)

During our recent visit to OLCC, there was not one owner I met, mostly in the EV hot tub, who knew as much as I do about what's going on at that resort, like the GoGlobal program.  Most of them knew nothing or very little.  None of them knew that OLCC has been separated into multiple resorts with RCI.





timeos2 said:


> The percentage of informed buyers/sellers/users of timeshares - including everyone that takes part on TUG and the other timeshare sites - isn't likely to reach 2%.


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## short (Jan 14, 2007)

*Whats so bad about settling for Orlando?*



ttt said:


> Thousands of owners are giving up on exchanging these off season weeks, good only for Orlando & other overbuilt areas at this time. Add the high exchange fees, & maint. fees & it becomes a no brainer....
> RCI needs to get the bus back on the road to industry growth, & keeping both their CUSTOMERS and their MEMBERS happy.



Whats so bad about settling for Orlando.  It has a ton of very good quaility resorts.  It has a ton of activities to do.  I generally has good weather.  Even Tuggers with better weeks go to Orlando. 

Las Vegas is another great settle for destination.  Folks always have plenty to do, plenty to eat and good quality accomadations.

What about using your week a drive to location in your own state.  Wouldn't a week in Cape Cod be interesting during spring or fall?

Only a small minority of US timeshare owners have any interest in exchanging into Europe.  Most inexperienced travelers to Europe will go on an organized tour or cruise.  Even experienced travelers to Europe like myself do not look to exchange and I do not want to stay in one place for 7 days.  I want to keep moving to different sites.

JMHO,

Short


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## Carolinian (Jan 14, 2007)

Orlando is good once, and then perhaps again after a long interval.  Otherwise it gets repetitious.

Only a very few of the most timid travellers I know have wasted their time and money on an organzied tour in Europe.  Most travel on their own.

I agree that exchange is not great for some destinations in Europe.  I concluded that about Sicily, for example.  For others, such as Corfu, Rhodes, Vienna, parts of the UK, canalboats, Alps near Salzburg, French Riviera, etc., I have found that timeshare works excpetionally well.

But you don't even have to go to Europe or the Caribbean to find places that you cannot get into with an internal trade within many mini-systems.  Many southeastern beach destinations would be examples, excluding MB and HH.




short said:


> Whats so bad about settling for Orlando.  It has a ton of very good quaility resorts.  It has a ton of activities to do.  I generally has good weather.  Even Tuggers with better weeks go to Orlando.
> 
> Las Vegas is another great settle for destination.  Folks always have plenty to do, plenty to eat and good quality accomadations.
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Jan 14, 2007)

There is usually interesting discussion on the RCI board at Crimeshare

www.crimeshare.net/43.html


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## timeos2 (Jan 14, 2007)

*Did the resorts in MB and HH disappear suddenly?*



Carolinian said:


> Orlando is good once, and then perhaps after a long interval.  Otherwise it gets repetitious.
> 
> Only a very few of the most timid travellers I know have wasted their time and money on an organzied tour in Europe.  Most travel on their own.
> 
> ...



This is a far too narrow view of what many travelers want. The minis - especially the large ones - can fill 90% or more of the desired locations especially when you consider that they get priority over non-system members for whatever inventory is in RCI/II.  As for Orlando/Las Vegas/etc getting "repetitious" that is about as personal a view as there is. Many many (make that many) people are more than happy to get a week in those locations especially at a nice resort - of which there are more than a few in those areas. While some may be bored the majority are not and will go there again and again. 

And since when are the MB and HH areas not represented (heavily) in the major mini-systems?  Wyndham, Sunterra and others have a ton of top quality locations in those east coast areas.


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## AwayWeGo (Jan 14, 2007)

*What's Not To Like ?*




timeos2 said:


> As for Orlando/Las Vegas/etc getting "repetitious" that is about as personal a view as there is. Many many (make that many) people are more than happy to get a week in those locations especially at a nice resort - of which there are more than a few in those areas. While some may be bored the majority are not and will go there again and again.


We go to Orlando again & again -- not tired of it yet.  But as realistic folks, we understand that timeshare vacationing means vacationing where the timeshares are -- & for us Orlando, where there are timeshares galore, frequently turns out to be the choicest Florida location with easy-to-snag, big-bargain availability at the times we like to go.  Shucks, we had to get on the RCI web site several times a day to snag the 2BR standard-grade timeshare in Mulberry FL where we stayed 1 time.  And even though Mulberry FL is closer to Plant City FL & Lakeland FL & Thonotosassa FL & Zephyrhills FL & places like that where we like to go, The Chief Of Staff found Mulberry FL to be more boring once than she finds Orlando FL to be over & over -- & we don't even go to the theme parks much. 

We're way happier staying in some 2BR luxury-grade timeshare villa on International Drive than we are in some Motel 6 or Super 8 econobox in Tampa FL or Lakeland FL or Pinellas Park FL.  So we go with outstanding Orlando timeshares for our Florida vacations, even though that means more highway time getting to Plant City, Thonotosassa, Zephyrhills, etc.  So it surely does boil down to people's individual preferences -- some folks like OBX, some folks like Orlando FL, some folks like Branson MO, some folks like Williamsburg VA, some folks like Las Vegas NV, & some folks like'm all. 
-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Carolinian (Jan 14, 2007)

My point is about east coast beaches OTHER than HH and MB.  I have never suggested you cannot get those two, but the other southeast coast areas are generally scarce in the minis (yes BlueGreen does have Charleston, a prime spot).





timeos2 said:


> And since when are the MB and HH areas not represented (heavily) in the major mini-systems?  Wyndham, Sunterra and others have a ton of top quality locations in those east coast areas.


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## timeos2 (Jan 14, 2007)

Carolinian said:


> My point is about east coast beaches OTHER than HH and MB.  I have never suggested you cannot get those two, but the other southeast coast areas are generally scarce in the minis (yes BlueGreen does have Charleston, a prime spot).



You are correct - I missed the excluding part. Sorry.


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## Neesie (Feb 16, 2007)

short said:


> Whats so bad about settling for Orlando.  It has a ton of very good quaility resorts.  It has a ton of activities to do.  I generally has good weather.  Even Tuggers with better weeks go to Orlando.
> 
> Las Vegas is another great settle for destination.  Folks always have plenty to do, plenty to eat and good quality accomadations.
> 
> ...



To Each His Own!  IMHO Orlando and Las Vegas are on the bottom of the list where my husband and I would go.  I believe I heard once that the majority of timeshare exchangers wanted a beach vacation.  That is true for me; also natural beautiful scenery like Hawaii, Sedona and British Columbia are high on my list.  RCI has sent me to all of those places and more.


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## Carol C (Feb 16, 2007)

ttt said:


> Many, many posts have talked about diminished trading power, rentals by RCI, membership rules, etc. There have even been class action lawsuits filed. I think that many tuggers just don't understand how RCI views the industry & who their REAL customers are.
> The truth is that RCI considers timeshare owners as MEMBERS and they charge MEMBERSHIP & other fees, but we are not their primary CUSTOMERS. The resort developers are RCI's CUSTOMERS, not timeshare owners.
> So when you look at the current rental situation or lack of availability for timeshare owners, it is helpful to understand that while RCI may be giving some displeasure to it's MEMBERS, it's CUSTOMERS are thrilled by RCI's actions. Lets take a look at why this is so:
> When a timeshare owner exchanges into a new resort, RCI gets the exchange fee & the resort gets a guest for a week along with the associated costs. Maybe you will take the TS tour and by another timeshare at developer prices, but probably you wont. Probably you will take the free gift and run. Contrast this to when the rent a TS unit to the public, even at a bargain price below the maint. fee for that unit.....RCI gets a rental fee that is MORE then the exchange fee & their CUSTOMER(The Developers), get a fresh innocent, unsuspecting new potential owner who may buy at retail price. This makes RCI's CUSTOMERS very happy.
> ...



So *that* is the reason why there are no SW Florida resorts to be had via RCI during the cold winter months!


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## joestein (Feb 16, 2007)

I have only owned a timeshare for a short period.  I own 161,000 FF points, and I deposit either blue(28,000) or red generic(70,000) studios to RCI to trade.  I have made quite a few trades in the past 2 years fairly easy.  I am going to CA in August and I wanted a week at Worldmark Windsor and at Lawrence Welk Resort in Escondido.  I got the worldmark week right away (and everybody at TUG said it would be impossible), but I still waiting for the Welk week (the week everybody said would be easy).  Overall for my cost, RCI has been FANTASTIC!   I don't think I would own a timeshare if I couldn't cut up my points and trade, at $700 yr in taxes and maintenance, I am not sure it is worth one week's vacation.

Joe


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## regatta333 (Feb 16, 2007)

joestein said:


> I am going to CA in August and I wanted a week at Worldmark Windsor and at Lawrence Welk Resort in Escondido.  I got the worldmark week right away (and everybody at TUG said it would be impossible), but I still waiting for the Welk week (the week everybody said would be easy).



The Welk resort has become much more difficult to get.  I used to be able to pull it up routinely in searches, but not in the past year.  I see a lot of units in Extra Vacations, though.


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## timeos2 (Feb 16, 2007)

*Its the flawed weeks system thats dying not timeshare*



joestein said:


> I have only owned a timeshare for a short period.  I own 161,000 FF points, and I deposit either blue(28,000) or red generic(70,000) studios to RCI to trade.  I have made quite a few trades in the past 2 years fairly easy.  I am going to CA in August and I wanted a week at Worldmark Windsor and at Lawrence Welk Resort in Escondido.  I got the worldmark week right away (and everybody at TUG said it would be impossible), but I still waiting for the Welk week (the week everybody said would be easy).  Overall for my cost, RCI has been FANTASTIC!   I don't think I would own a timeshare if I couldn't cut up my points and trade, at $700 yr in taxes and maintenance, I am not sure it is worth one week's vacation.
> 
> Joe



Joe - You are lucky to have started out with a points based ownership. It changes everything as you control what and when you get use and how much it costs you. The drop and hope of week for week trading is what is so frustrating - especially to those that came in recently with the ease of hotel reservations in mind and then find that week for week trades aren't that easy and often simply aren't equal.  We're in a quickly changing environment where the old ways, especially the tricks, aren't as likely to work anymore. For those that knew them and set up ownership to fully leverage the quirks the newer, far more open systems are a threat. But they are great and, while still not perfect, easier to get decent value out of on a regular basis. I am so happy that over time I was able to convert all my weeks into a point system of some type if I wanted.  Once I was exposed to the (then) Fairfield Fairshare Plus system the old week for week nightmare didn't appeal to us anymore. We own weeks to use and points to trade. It works perfectly for us.


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## Aldo (Feb 17, 2007)

timeos2 said:


> The percentage of informed buyers/sellers/users of timeshares - including everyone that takes part on TUG and the other timeshare sites - isn't likely to reach 2%.  It never ceases to amaze me how many people I run into that either own a timeshare, are planning to get one or who once owned one and dumped it in frustration. Nearly every one thinks they know how it all works yet in a 2 minute conversation it's clear that at best they are repeating a presentation line, haven't ever traded or, worst case, bought years ago and other than paying fees have hardly ever used it for anything! It is that super majority of the population that supports the retail side, RCI/II and feeds the low cost rental and resale machines. We don't stand a chance of changing that.  Class action success or not.



The class action doesn't seek to change any of that.  All it seeks to do is to stop RCI from skimming the exchange pool for the rentals.  

Simple enough.  Weeks put into the exchange pool ought to, by right, stay in the exchange pool.


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## PerryM (Feb 17, 2007)

*Black Box outputs can't be used for any decision..*



Aldo said:


> The class action doesn't seek to change any of that.  All it seeks to do is to stop RCI from skimming the exchange pool for the rentals.
> 
> Simple enough.  Weeks put into the exchange pool ought to, by right, stay in the exchange pool.




Why do you assume that?  I sure don’t.  RCI can do anything with its business plan it wants.  If that’s moving reservations around – that's exactly what you agreed to let them do - anything they want.

We are just looking at the output of a “Black Box” system – the RCI week system.  It’s full of mysterious and fluctuating and vacillating rules that come and go.  To look at the outcome and determine that RCI is violating any of their own rules is to assume that they purposely want to violate the rules they cooked up.  Why on earth do that?

Those here that demand they change their business plan make HUGE assumptions that have no basis in reality at all.  We just don't have ANY proof, that would stand up in court for 10 seconds.  These wild rumors only cause folks using RCI to become agitated when there is NO reason to be.

We all agree to follow RCI's ever changing rules - if those rules don't benefit a timeshare owner they have plenty of options these days - this is the computer age and the Internet age - of course there are many alternatives.

To those here that want to fight - that sounds like a tremendous waste of time and effort - better to spend the same time and effort finding something that actually improves your family's vacations.  Lawsuits only make the lawyers rich and the peasants get peanuts.  Anyone here believe otherwise?


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## taffy19 (Feb 17, 2007)

PerryM said:


> To those here that want to fight - that sounds like a tremendous waste of time and effort - better to spend the same time and effort finding something that actually improves your family's vacations.  Lawsuits only make the lawyers rich and the peasants get peanuts.  Anyone here believe otherwise?


Oh my goodness, you sure hit the nail right on the head, PerryM.  This is so true that the class action attorneys are getting rich and the consumer ends up with a few dollars or not even that and the companies pass on the expense to all of us.  That's the way business works.  I can't stand these TV ads where these fat cats are trying to get people to join a class action lawsuit.   

Read the instructions of the RCI membership and you will see it in black and white that they can do whatever they wish with your deposit.  I am so glad that there are other options around so why not use them?


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## Carolinian (Feb 19, 2007)

While I have always contended that a suit by a state AG Consumer Protection Division would be much preferable, partly because of the fee issue,  the class action boys got there first, and the survival of the ownership-exchange model of timesharing may depend on their going for a win instead of just cashing out and letting RCI make some meaningless minor change.

In a class action, unless it bombs completely, there will be an outcome on four levels; 1) payment of damages to the lead plaintiff, 2) attorney fees for plaintiffs attorney, 3) damages (often minute) to class members, and 4) injunctive relief to force the defendant to change what it was doing improperly.  In this case, 1,2,and 3 really dont matter, but 4 is critical.  I really dont care how little damages to the class are or how large attorneys fees are.  It is what RCI is compelled to change that is important.  The danger in any class action is that the defendant will try to settle based on a minor change so that plaintiffs attorneys can declare a victory and collect their fees.  Of course, the lead plaintiff has to agree.  In this case, what I am able to learn about one of the lead plaintiffs indicates that this person is in it for meaningful reform, not a payout, and one of the key attorneys may be at least somewhat inclined the same way.  RCI is so secretive about their operations, I strongly suspect that they are highly motivated to settle without too much getting out in public, so if the plaintiffs stick to their guns, they may well accomplish something.  One of the advantages of an AG consumer protection suit, of course, is that attorneys on a state salary have no motive whatsoever to sell out for the cash.  All they are going to get is their state salary, anyway!

RCI buries things in fine print that contradict the impression they give members into order to induce them to deposit their week.  I do not call such business practices honest.





iconnections said:


> Oh my goodness, you sure hit the nail right on the head, PerryM.  This is so true that the class action attorneys are getting rich and the consumer ends up with a few dollars or not even that and the companies pass on the expense to all of us.  That's the way business works.  I can't stand these TV ads where these fat cats are trying to get people to join a class action lawsuit.
> 
> Read the instructions of the RCI membership and you will see it in black and white that they can do whatever they wish with your deposit.  I am so glad that there are other options around so why not use them?


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## BocaBum99 (Feb 19, 2007)

Carolinian said:


> My argument about their limitations has to do with the proposition put forward by some that their internal trading system makes exchange companies obsolete.  That is where the limitations come into play.  The only mini with any real presence in Europe, Sunterra, for example, now has their European operations up for sale.
> 
> I agree that exchange companies sometimes give an unfair preference to some of these systems, but again to even get to that point, one HAS to  USE the exchange companies rather than the internal mini-system trades.



You arguments are based on false premises about point systems and how expert users use them.  In a points system, I can do without an exchange company if I want.  If I use one, I can gain access to far more weeks.

You have this perception about mini-systems that is based on how many resorts they have vs. how many they actually have access to.  My reach in a point system is far greater than just the exchange companies or the resorts in the system.

I can direct exchange with other owners.  If I own a resort group, I can trade any of those units in the exchange system.  I know.  I do direct exchanges all the time for timeshares I don't own.  And, people will simpy trade for points, not a specific week.  The provides me, a points owner, more options.  It is more likely that someone will want one of 40-60 resorts for a direct trade than for a single ownership at a specific resort.  

In addition, if you are using exchange companies at all, you can access ALL of them via a resort group because different exchange companies take different resorts in the system.  I can provide the cheapest unit that the exchange company will take to reduce my cost of accommodations.

And, I can rent units.   When you own a resort group, different resorts have more appeal for renting than others.  So, I can book the maximum renter and use the cash to rent someone elses unit from them.  I do that as well.

So, by actually owning a points system, I get so many more options for getting what I want that it simply blows away what I can get with a fixed week.


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## Phill12 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Sounds like this should have been my post!*



short said:


> Whats so bad about settling for Orlando.  It has a ton of very good quaility resorts.  It has a ton of activities to do.  I generally has good weather.  Even Tuggers with better weeks go to Orlando.
> 
> Las Vegas is another great settle for destination.  Folks always have plenty to do, plenty to eat and good quality accomadations.
> ==========================================================
> ...


==========================================================


Again your right because we wanted to goto Germany but found first place we have never heard of most the places that have timeshares and like most countries you are stuck in one area and need ten vacations to see everything! I would think most families would take some kind of packaged vacation to see more of Germany or other countries. 

 We have taken four cruises just for this reason and the last one to Alaska and loved it, one to Mexico,one to Virgin Islands and the Disney cruise years ago.


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## Carolinian (Feb 19, 2007)

The notion that "experienced travellers" to Europe would use an organized tour doesnt hold water.  Organized tours are for the newbies and the timid. Experienced travelers plan their OWN trip based on what they want to do and see.  A timeshare may or may not fit into what someone wants to do.  For me, it does in some places in Europe, and others (like my current one - I am sitting in an internet cafe in Belgrade, Serbia as I type) it does not.

There are few places that I would recommend an organized tour to anyone. One is Russia, where I did that myself my first time there.


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## Carolinian (Feb 19, 2007)

Renting and direct trades do not give nearly the reach as an exchange company.

And the sale of Sunterras European operations (the latest word seems to still have Club La Costa as the likely buyer) is not a false premise.  The sale process is far advanced and could be finally closed in the near future.





BocaBum99 said:


> You arguments are based on false premises about point systems and how expert users use them.  In a points system, I can do without an exchange company if I want.  If I use one, I can gain access to far more weeks.
> 
> You have this perception about mini-systems that is based on how many resorts they have vs. how many they actually have access to.  My reach in a point system is far greater than just the exchange companies or the resorts in the system.
> 
> ...


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## rickandcindy23 (Feb 19, 2007)

Carolinian, I want to be YOU!  Sitting in an internet cafe' in Belgrade--you are such a world traveler, you lucky devil.   

Have a wonderful vacation.  I am so, so jealous!


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## taffy19 (Feb 19, 2007)

I hope that Carolinian has a wonderful time over there and decent weather too. It is wonderful how much he travels in that part of Europe before it becomes too expensive.

Cindy, start saving and planning and you will be on your way sooner than you think. I would go with you.  My SO has no desire to go to to Europe at all.


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## mav (Feb 19, 2007)

Carolinian said:


> The notion that "experienced travellers" to Europe would use an organized tour doesnt hold water.  Organized tours are for the newbies and the timid. Experienced travelers plan their OWN trip based on what they want to do and see.  A timeshare may or may not fit into what someone wants to do.  For me, it does in some places in Europe, and others (like my current one - I am sitting in an internet cafe in Belgrade, Serbia as I type) it does not.
> 
> There are few places that I would recommend an organized tour to anyone. One is Russia, where I did that myself my first time there.





Carolinian,  you do get around!   And I agree, an organized trip to Europe is for newbies.  We have ALWAYS gone on our own, and hopefully won't need an organized tour to Europe until we are to old to lug our suitcases !


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## Phill12 (Feb 20, 2007)

Carolinian said:


> The notion that "experienced travellers" to Europe would use an organized tour doesnt hold water.  Organized tours are for the newbies and the timid. Experienced travelers plan their OWN trip based on what they want to do and see.  A timeshare may or may not fit into what someone wants to do.  For me, it does in some places in Europe, and others (like my current one - I am sitting in an internet cafe in Belgrade, Serbia as I type) it does not.
> There are few places that I would recommend an organized tour to anyone.
> ==========================================================
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Feb 20, 2007)

SOFTBALLDAD3 said:


> Carolinian, which part of my post made you think we are experienced travellers.



Actually, the part you edited from your earlier post made reference to the habits of experienced travellers to Europe as it was originally posted, and that is what I responded to.  My comments are not directed at your own travel habits.


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## short (Feb 20, 2007)

*Organized tour.*



Carolinian said:


> The notion that "experienced travellers" to Europe would use an organized tour doesnt hold water.  Organized tours are for the newbies and the timid. Experienced travelers plan their OWN trip based on what they want to do and see.  A timeshare may or may not fit into what someone wants to do.  For me, it does in some places in Europe, and others (like my current one - I am sitting in an internet cafe in Belgrade, Serbia as I type) it does not.
> 
> There are few places that I would recommend an organized tour to anyone. One is Russia, where I did that myself my first time there.



I think my original post said inexperienced travelers would take a tour or a cruise not a experienced traveler.  Perhaps we should use different terms.  I consider myself an experienced traveler but not neccesarily a frequent traveler to Europe.  I have still have lots of places to see before I settle down to going one place frequently.

I am fully capable of navigating my way around Europe on my own but now that I think about it my best vacation to Europe was to Italy where we did a small group(our family of 4 only) tour of Venice, Florence, and Rome.  I'm not a big fan of large tour buses but small group tours of 12 people that move along seeing several different sites and has a driver and a guide at each location looks like it might be doable.  I found an interesting tour that starts in London, goes to Dover, does the Normandy beaches and the D Day invasion.  I think my husband would find that very interesting and it is something I would probobly not organize on my own.

Now that I think about it I do not think organized tours and cruises are just for Newbies and the timid.  Organized tours are also good for people that what to spend their travel time more efficiently, want to have a tour guide at each location that can tell them what they are looking at, can't or don't want to drive, can't or don't want to walk long distances, want to go with a large group(like a church group)etc.

Short

I have to go and see if I can find that Normandy tour again and put it on my watch list.


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## Carolinian (Feb 20, 2007)

Friends who have done tour groups to Europe complain that their level of interest is not always the same as the tour guide.  They beat to death something that the client is not that interested in but rush through something the client really wants to see.  There is nothing better than setting your own pace rather than being constrained by that of the tour guide.  Indeed when I did the tour group to Russia on my first trip there, I went with the guide on his spin around St. Petersburg, but in Moscow decided it was better to get out on my own rather than staying with the guide.

When I saw the Normandy beaches some years ago (they were still using francs then),  I used a good guide book (The Rough Guide) and did just fine on my own,


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## randyz (Feb 20, 2007)

short said:


> .
> 
> I am fully capable of navigating my way around Europe on my own but now that I think about it my best vacation to Europe was to Italy where we did a small group(our family of 4 only) tour of Venice, Florence, and Rome.  I'm not a big fan of large tour buses but small group tours of 12 people that move along seeing several different sites and has a driver and a guide at each location looks like it might be doable.  I found an interesting tour that starts in London, goes to Dover, does the Normandy beaches and the D Day invasion.  I think my husband would find that very interesting and it is something I would probobly not organize on my own.
> .



Excellent point, when one says tours one automatically thinks of large tour bus and the cattle herds, at the other extreme is the smaller tour precisely for the experienced traveller, for example, boating into the amazon, walking tour of New Orleans guided by a history and trivia buff, kajaking the Charlottes, etc..

Randy


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## Mel (Feb 21, 2007)

There is a difference between "experienced travelers" and "experienced travelers to Europe."  The first, is those who travel a fair amount, but most of that travel may be near home - in the case of many TUG mambers,t hat would mean in the US.   For many of us, a trip to Europe is a whole different experience.  The US may be as big is several countries put together, but it still is just that - several countries!

Most of the Americans I know who have been to Europe have done so as part of a tour group - some large groups, some small.  My in-laws have gone a few times, on their own to various parts of Great Britain, but with tours for the mainland.  Their last 2 trips were on smaller river cruises.  No, they did not get the same level of choice of what to see, or to do in each city as they would have on their own, but they have been very happy which what they did see.  They now know what they would do on their own if they go back (and a couple cities they might).

I think the issues is that most americans won't go to Europe all that many times -again, TUG members may be an exception, but we are the exception to almost everything.  If I were only going to go to Europe once, I would probably do so as part of a tour, and visit several cities for a few days each.  DH did that on his own the summer after he graduated college, but most of us don't have the 2 months off to do that.  Thus, we need to economize - both our money AND more importantly our time.  We leave it up to someone else to plan the itinerary - or choose one that fits best our desires.  

We could make this work in Europe.  We could do as we do when visiting a less familiar region in the US.  We've had members here ask about visitng New England - is it reasonable to take a unit in Cape Cod and use it as a base to explore New England?  Well, yes to a degree, but be prepared to spend loads of time in the car getting to your day trips.  No different than doing the same in Europe, except that Cape Cod, as part of the US, is already more familiar than many partts of Europe.  Many of the customs are the same, the language is the same, and so on.  

Also consider where most timeshares are.  In the US, while there are a few concentrated areas, most timeshares are not in the big cities, they are in vacation destinantions - the same is true in Europe.  It's just that americans going to Europe aren't interested in vacation destinantions, but in experiencing the culture.  The European timeshares serve the same purpose there - to provide a vacation destination for people who are more local to them.  If you are willing to drive substantial distance (and willing to pay the cost for the rental car and fuel), you can use a European timeshare as a base, but you will be limited in the area you can visit, much as you are limited in the area you can visit in the US from any given "base."  A German family that visits the US, and stays with friends in Minnesota gets no taste of life in New England, or in Texas, after all.


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## Jollyhols (Feb 23, 2007)

I guess it was the rep showing us the II catalogue that 'sold' our t/s to us and the apparent small admin fee to exchange.  As everyone knows, it is not that simple and although we have exchanged a few times it is a bit of an effort and we find vacation planning much less fun since we bought our t/s and actually quite tense!  We only exchanged once into a non 5 star II rated place and were very disappointed and are now much more cautious about where we exchange into.  Our annual vacation since we bought in Orlando has been one week in Orlando and one week elsewhere in Florida.  
I love Florida, but would like to see somewhere else before I die!  Bearing in mind how environmentally unfriendly it is to keep taking long haul flights, I wish I had bought a timeshare in Europe instead.  Actually I wish I hadn't bought one at all ...


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## Carolinian (Feb 23, 2007)

Jollyhols said:


> Bearing in mind how environmentally unfriendly it is to keep taking long haul flights, I wish I had bought a timeshare in Europe instead.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## PerryM (Feb 23, 2007)

*Smile; you're on vacation*



Jollyhols said:


> I guess it was the rep showing us the II catalogue that 'sold' our t/s to us and the apparent small admin fee to exchange.  As everyone knows, it is not that simple and although we have exchanged a few times it is a bit of an effort and we find vacation planning much less fun since we bought our t/s and actually quite tense!  We only exchanged once into a non 5 star II rated place and were very disappointed and are now much more cautious about where we exchange into.  Our annual vacation since we bought in Orlando has been one week in Orlando and one week elsewhere in Florida.
> I love Florida, but would like to see somewhere else before I die!  Bearing in mind how environmentally unfriendly it is to keep taking long haul flights, I wish I had bought a timeshare in Europe instead.  Actually I wish I hadn't bought one at all ...




I agree with my good friend Carolinian; your actions as a citizen of the US do not have an impact upon the sun’s slow increase in temperature for the last 1,000 years.  So go on as many vacations as you want – it’s good for the economy and your family’s well being.

Exchanging is like going to a church picnic – everyone brings a covered-dish and some of the food just isn’t going to be to your liking – don’t blame the church.

I personally don’t like RCI’s selection of timeshares, for the most part.  Find a timeshare that can do both RCI and II – like WorldMark.  There for just $5,000 you can take yearly exchanges at both RCI and II.  For II you can get a $400 exchange into a Marriott 2BR in Florida or at any Marriott, even Maui at the 59-day window - if there is availability.

So look at exchanging with the idea of upgrading the timeshare you own and get something much better.  If you view the exchange this way you will be checking in the front desk right next to owners who paid 10 times as much as you did and 4 times the MF and you will be enjoying your vacation even before you check in.


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## "Roger" (Feb 23, 2007)

My sympathies are with Jollyhols.  When I first bought, I asked around about people's experiences with timesharing.  He or she hit upon the two biggest complaints that were registered... the salepeople falsely make you think that you can trade for anything in the catelogue and it forces you to plan your vacation too far in advance.  

TUGGERs have always been very unsympathetic to the latter complaint.  I hate to be harsh, but the attitude that has been expressed has been "Well I can plan two years in advance and that gives me a leg up on others who can't, so first come first serve is fair since they could do it too."  No, timesharing is hard for many people who have job commitments and family matters that do not allow extreme advance planning.  

Perry, if you look, Jollyhols is not a US citizen.  He or she also belongs to II and not RCI.  Global warming will get us in a banned issue on TUG, but your view of its just the sun going through a period of warning is very much in dispute.  Regardless, some of us are concerned about the excessive use of rare fossil fuels.  That too comes with a price.  (I agree we should not be debating these latter matters on TUG, but I am sympathetic to someone simply stating that they have some moral qualms about such issues.)


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## PerryM (Feb 23, 2007)

*Roger that*



"Roger" said:


> My sympathies are with Jollyhols.  When I first bought, I asked around about people's experiences with timesharing.  He or she hit upon the two biggest complaints that were registered... the salepeople falsely make you think that you can trade for anything in the catelogue and it forces you to plan your vacation too far in advance.
> 
> TUGGERs have always been very unsympathetic to the latter complaint.  I hate to be harsh, but the attitude that has been expressed has been "Well I can plan two years in advance and that gives me a leg up on others who can't, so first come first serve is fair since they could do it too."  No, timesharing is hard for many people who have job commitments and family matters that do not allow extreme advance planning.
> 
> Perry, if you look, Jollyhols is not a US citizen.  He or she also belongs to II and not RCI.  Global warming will get us in a banned issue on TUG, but your view of its just the sun going through a period of warning is very much in dispute.  Regardless, some of us are concerned about the excessive use of rare fossil fuels.  That too comes with a price.  (I agree we should not be debating these latter matters on TUG, but I am sympathetic to someone simply stating that they have some moral qualms about such issues.)





Roger, I’m addressing the theme of the thread which is RCI oriented.

However, I get eMails form folks all the time who are less than thrilled with exchanging in II and RCI and other exchange companies.

My advice to them is two fold:

1)	Attitude adjustment – you are at the mercy of another timeshare owner who feels his timeshare is not worth using that year

2)	Learn to play better – if you don’t know how to play a game well do you really expect to come out the winner?  I don’t play poker much and when I do I lose – I don’t get discouraged I try to enjoy myself

Those of use who bought from the dreaded timeshare salesrep (5 times for me) all know the salesrep lives in a fantasy land he creates every morning driving to that sales gallery.  So learn as much as possible, play the game as much as possible and you will do much better and enjoy playing the game.


The latest theories scientists have regarding how dinosaurs lived has them speculating that the earth averaged 20ºF warmer 200 million years ago than today – that explains how cold blooded animals that large could have lived.  Global cooling anyone?


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## timeos2 (Feb 23, 2007)

*Trading is n't what it's made out to be*



"Roger" said:


> My sympathies are with Jollyhols.  When I first bought, I asked around about people's experiences with timesharing.  He or she hit upon the two biggest complaints that were registered... the salepeople falsely make you think that you can trade for anything in the catelogue and it forces you to plan your vacation too far in advance.
> 
> TUGGERs have always been very unsympathetic to the latter complaint.  I hate to be harsh, but the attitude that has been expressed has been "Well I can plan two years in advance and that gives me a leg up on others who can't, so first come first serve is fair since they could do it too."  No, timesharing is hard for many people who have job commitments and family matters that do not allow extreme advance planning.



Without hijacking the thread the need to plan up to 2 years in advance with weeks based timeshares is one of the real problems. Although some see that as an advantage, to me, and many others I think, it is just too much to know what your situation will be looking out past 12 months.  That is one reason that points based trades - with a much shorter time frame of 10 months or less - work better for us. Add in the fact that the dynamic nature of points use (you only pay for what you consume rather than a flat week for week cost) means that people don't grab the biggest and the best "because it's there" - they carefully parse the use of points to maximize their desired trips. That means you are far more likely to find what you want at a reasonable cost even if you wait until 4-6 months before the travel date.  We have got some of our best trips in that time frame.  Plus points resorts allow you to decide if you want to use more for quality and/or location or save points and take a lesser resort - it's all up to the owner.  

One of the real nightmares of timeshare ownership seems to be the misrepresented ease and availability of trades. They don't make it clear how far in advance a week for week trade has to be done and all the limitations on seasons, unit sizes, quality and extra costs involved. They take advantage of the new buyers lack of knowledge and the tendency to think it's like making a hotel reservation. While points can't fix all those issues it does make it easier to understand and closer to the hotel model most travelers are already familiar with. Its a big reason why new points buyers seem to be happier with timesharing than new weeks owners who purchased to trade. Of course a weeks buyer that purchased to use may be the happiest of all.


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## Jollyhols (Feb 23, 2007)

Hi, yes I am British and Florida is a long haul trip for me.  Sorry - I didn't know global warming was a banned topic on the forum and hadn't even intended to try and start a debate on it.  

Thanks Roger - sometimes it helps to have a bit of a moan and even better when someone can see the situation and offer a bit of sympathy!


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