# WPORV 2 Bdm. EOY - $1 on ebay [Sold - $760]



## DeniseM (Jun 3, 2010)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Kauai-HAWAII-2B...md=ViewItem&pt=Timeshares&hash=item335d8dd6ba


----------



## DanCali (Jun 3, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/Kauai-HAWAII-2B...md=ViewItem&pt=Timeshares&hash=item335d8dd6ba



$1 + $370 / night.... + zero Staroptions + zero Starpoints...


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 3, 2010)

DanCali said:


> $1 + $370 / night.... + zero Staroptions + zero Starpoints...



Exactly!


----------



## RedDogSD (Jun 3, 2010)

Hey Denise....how is this different than the WKORV that you own?  Your MF is even more than that for each usage right?


----------



## James1975NY (Jun 3, 2010)

DanCali said:


> $1 + $370 / night.... + zero Staroptions + zero Starpoints...



Who plans on using their week for StarOptions or StarPoints at this property? $370 per night is pretty reasonable for the scale of this property. Could you feel guilty saying that you paid $370 per night to stay in a 2-bedroom villa at this property?

Maybe I am missing the message here.


----------



## DanCali (Jun 3, 2010)

James1975NY said:


> Who plans on using their week for StarOptions or StarPoints at this property? $370 per night is pretty reasonable for the scale of this property. Could you feel guilty saying that you paid $370 per night to stay in a 2-bedroom villa at this property?
> 
> Maybe I am missing the message here.



$370/night is not a the "prepaid vacation" it's marketed to be... an owner buying retail pays $55K+ for an annual and around $35K(?) for an EOY (or maybe "only" half of the EY price if they already own with Starwood). With a 5% opportunity cost that's around $1500 for the EOY and almost $3000 for the annual... Adding the cost of MFs to that makes it a ridiculous value proposition -around $5500 for an annual VOI or * close to $800 a night*. 

Buying resale saves much on the opportunity cost (hence the $370/night) but one can pretty much rent most weeks in the upcoming months on Redweek for around the cost of the MFs... I am not going to compare MFs with spg.com prices...

Oh, and I haven't touched on the topic of equity depreciation for the retail buyer. That's the biggest cost of all and officially incurred 7 days after purchase, whether realized or on paper.


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 3, 2010)

James - It is a GREAT property.  But you can easily trade in through II with a 1 bdm. voluntary exchanger with a MF of $520 ($74 a night.)  The MF/voluntary status is why this resort is selling for $1.  Sad, actually...


----------



## Transit (Jun 3, 2010)

I'm guessing shill bids are planned for this one.


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 3, 2010)

RedDogSD said:


> Hey Denise....how is this different than the WKORV that you own?  Your MF is even more than that for each usage right?



My MF for 2010 was $2,340 - so about the same.

WKORV is different than WPORV because:

1)  It's mandatory (it can be traded for other SW resorts)
2)  It still sell for about $10-15K for ocean view.
3)  It is an ocean front resort (WPORV is on a bluff)
4)  I rented mine for $3,500 this year

That being said, I bought it "BT," before TUG, and wouldn't have, if I knew then, what I know now!    The MF is ridiculous at both resorts!  WKORV  has increased about $1,200 since I bought, preconstruction.


----------



## RedDogSD (Jun 3, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> My MF for 2010 was $2,340 - so about the same.
> 
> 4)  I rented mine for $3,500 this year



Wow, that must have changed.  Last time I heard from you...you were getting close to check in date and had no renter.  So, going from no renter to $3500 is a huge improvement.


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 3, 2010)

RedDogSD said:


> Wow, that must have changed.  Last time I heard from you...you were getting close to check in date and had no renter.  So, going from no renter to $3500 is a huge improvement.



Nope - that was a different resort on the BI.  I rented my WKORV week 8 mos. out.


----------



## RedDogSD (Jun 3, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> 2)  It still sell for about $10-15K for ocean view.



By the way, how do you tell an Ocean View from an Island View?  do you have to just ask.  I saw the last 2 Ebay auctions go for $7-8k for 2 bedrooms.  One said Island View (for Deeding Only) and the other said nothing about it.


----------



## DanCali (Jun 3, 2010)

RedDogSD said:


> By the way, how do you tell an Ocean View from an Island View?  do you have to just ask.  I saw the last 2 Ebay auctions go for $7-8k for 2 bedrooms.  One said Island View (for Deeding Only) and the other said nothing about it.



You ask the seller, but you can also tell from the unit number often by looking at a resort map or calling Owner Services.


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 3, 2010)

RedDogSD said:


> By the way, how do you tell an Ocean View from an Island View?  do you have to just ask.  I saw the last 2 Ebay auctions go for $7-8k for 2 bedrooms.  One said Island View (for Deeding Only) and the other said nothing about it.



The view you own & are entitled to is on the deed, so the "for deeding only" in the Ad was not true.  The Ads usually say that the unit number is for deeding only," which is true, but not the view.

An owner has priority for the view on their deed, if reserved 12-8 mos. out.  Anything else is an upgrade.

*Here* is a map and a link to the deeded view based on unit number.


----------



## LisaRex (Jun 3, 2010)

If one KNEW it would stay at $360/night in MFs, I'd consider a $1 purchase to be an okay deal, provided I wanted to stay there year after year.  But given SVO's track record, there's almost a guarantee that the MFs will increase considerably year after year.  Hence, it's too much of a risk esp given that one could rent the same property for the same as MFs with no long-term required.

The same goes for WKORV, IMO.  Its value has been severely diminished by out-of-control MFs.  Both SVO and Maui County share the blame for this. I wouldn't buy it for any price if I had to do it over again.


----------



## Fredm (Jun 4, 2010)

James1975NY said:


> Who plans on using their week for StarOptions or StarPoints at this property? $370 per night is pretty reasonable for the scale of this property. Could you feel guilty saying that you paid $370 per night to stay in a 2-bedroom villa at this property?
> 
> Maybe I am missing the message here.



I don't think you are missing anything. 
Except that the $370 is overstated. Excluding the SVN fee which the resale buyer does not pay, 2010 fees are ~$2270, or ~$325 per night. BTW, the $2,270 is ~$100 reduction from 2009. 

Sure, an exchange may work. It may, or may not, get the dates desired for now.  But for those that follow the principle of buying where you want to go (which I highly recommend), how can anyone argue with a $1 purchase price?


----------



## LisaRex (Jun 4, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Sure, an exchange may work. It may, or may not, get the dates desired for now.  But for those that follow the principle of buying where you want to go (which I highly recommend), how can anyone argue with a $1 purchase price?



Because buying, even for a buck, means that you are contractually obligated to pay the MFs, no matter what.  Having MFs in excess of $2M is a really big turnoff for most people.  If they go much higher, you'll not be able to give away these units. 

Case in point: Marriott Maui towers have held steady on their resale value vs. WKORV.  2 years ago, they were running neck and neck.  Why the disparity?


----------



## RLOGO (Jun 4, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> Having MFs in excess of $2M is a really big turnoff for most people.



The MF's have not reached $2M but they will be there soon. That is a true Freudian slip.


----------



## DanCali (Jun 4, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> I wouldn't buy it for any price if I had to do it over again.



I understand what you are saying but you can take this further...

Given your statement above it means it's not worth even $1 to you... so if you can sell your Maui OF unit for over $10K or even $15K now, why not take the money and run?


----------



## okwiater (Jun 4, 2010)

RLOGO said:


> The MF's have not reached $2M but they will be there soon. That is a true Freudian slip.


$2M = $2,000

This is due to Roman numerals, where M = 1,000

Business accounting follows these standards. So, $2M = $2,000, and $2MM = $2 million.


----------



## RLOGO (Jun 4, 2010)

okwiater said:


> $2M = $2,000
> 
> This is due to Roman numerals, where M = 1,000
> 
> Business accounting follows these standards. So, $2M = $2,000, and $2MM = $2 million.



You are right. I am used to "K" as 1000's.


----------



## LisaRex (Jun 4, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Given your statement above it means it's not worth even $1 to you... so if you can sell your Maui OF unit for over $10K or even $15K now, why not take the money and run?



I'd imagine I could get $25K for it.  

The only way I can explain it is that there's a big difference between buying an SUV when gas prices are $2.50 a gallon, and choosing to keep it when gas prices jump to $4.50 a gallon and buying an SUV when gas prices are $4.00 a gallon.


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 4, 2010)

Lisa - I'd sell mine in a heartbeat for $25K - WHERE?  Oh wait, you own ocean front....  you might get 25K.


----------



## DanCali (Jun 4, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> The only way I can explain it is that there's a big difference between buying an SUV when gas prices are $2.50 a gallon, and choosing to keep it when gas prices jump to $4.50 a gallon and buying an SUV when gas prices are $4.00 a gallon.



That's a pretty good explanation for the "disposition effect" 

This kind of stuff is all  in our heads though. If you thought of it as a $25K gain (since you said you wouldn't buy it for a dollar) rather than a big loss the decision you'd make would be different - even though it's the same transaction.


----------



## James1975NY (Jun 4, 2010)

DanCali said:


> $370/night is not a the "prepaid vacation" it's marketed to be... an owner buying retail pays $55K+ for an annual and around $35K(?) for an EOY (or maybe "only" half of the EY price if they already own with Starwood). With a 5% opportunity cost that's around $1500 for the EOY and almost $3000 for the annual... Adding the cost of MFs to that makes it a ridiculous value proposition -around $5500 for an annual VOI or * close to $800 a night*.
> 
> Buying resale saves much on the opportunity cost (hence the $370/night) but one can pretty much rent most weeks in the upcoming months on Redweek for around the cost of the MFs... I am not going to compare MFs with spg.com prices...
> 
> Oh, and I haven't touched on the topic of equity depreciation for the retail buyer. That's the biggest cost of all and officially incurred 7 days after purchase, whether realized or on paper.



 - If we are looking at an e-bay ad that is currently at $2.5 (dollars) why are we bringing in the retail scenario? Im confused as to what that has to do with the price per night that you quoted in your earlier post.

 - Another poster pointed out that they are expecting shill bidding. You took the words right out of my mouth. *I think this thread started way too early. Lets see where the pricing ends up - shill or not. *

 - The economy is not going to stay where it is right now. I would imagine that most travelling to Hawaii understand the cost for that vacation is going to be quite a bit more expensive than a trip to Florida. 

So, again....for under $400 per night, I don't see the problem with picking up a Westin week for a couple of dollars..........assuming that is the price that will end the auction.


----------



## James1975NY (Jun 4, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> The view you own & are entitled to is on the deed, so the "for deeding only" in the Ad was not true.  The Ads usually say that the unit number is for deeding only," which is true, but not the view.
> 
> An owner has priority for the view on their deed, if reserved 12-8 mos. out.  Anything else is an upgrade.
> 
> *Here* is a map and a link to the deeded view based on unit number.



I think the poster was confused about what was stated as "for deeded purposes only" - I am guessing the ad was referring to the week and unit that was provided on the ad. The view, however, is directly associated to the unit number on the deed...whether or not the owner of that deed sees that unit is another story.


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 4, 2010)

James - Maybe your average Hawaii visitor is willing to pay $350 a night for WPORV, but I don't think too many Tuggers would pay that much - especially knowing it's an easy trade through II.


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 4, 2010)

James1975NY said:


> I think the poster was confused about what was stated as "for deeded purposes only" - I am guessing the ad was referring to the week and unit that was provided on the ad. The view, however, is directly associated to the unit number on the deed...whether or not the owner of that deed sees that unit is another story.



I agree...


----------



## pianodinosaur (Jun 4, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> James - It is a GREAT property.  But you can easily trade in through II with a 1 bdm. voluntary exchanger with a MF of $520 ($74 a night.)  The MF/voluntary status is why this resort is selling for $1.  Sad, actually...



DeniseM:

I am in the process of purchasing at the Marrott Mountain Valley Resort in Breckenridge assuming my ebay bid passes ROFR.  This is a 1 bedroom unit Gold summer season that sleeps up to six people.  Would it be unreasonable for me to expect a trade into WPORV or WKORV via II?


----------



## James1975NY (Jun 4, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> James - It is a GREAT property.  But you can easily trade in through II with a 1 bdm.



Who is easily trading through II to this property? I am sure there plenty of exchanges in with weeks that have less maintenance fees; however, this is a sign of the times - as is the asking price.



DeniseM said:


> voluntary exchanger with a MF of $520 ($74 a night.)  The MF/voluntary status is why this resort is selling for $1.  Sad, actually...



Has it sold for $1?


----------



## DanCali (Jun 4, 2010)

James1975NY said:


> - If we are looking at an e-bay ad that is currently at $2.5 (dollars) why are we bringing in the retail scenario? Im confused as to what that has to do with the price per night that you quoted in your earlier post.



I realize it's a big difference between $350 or $800 a night. My point was more that if SVO markets these as "prepaid vacations" and charges $55K+ upfront, which by any reasonable measure already is an opportunity cost of $2K-$3K a year (because you can put that money in a relatively safe investment like treasuries or a 5 year CD etc and get 4%-5% a year in most years) which is already $300-$400 a night - then maintenance fees have no business being as high as they are. 

I also realize that if MFs were lower, resale prices would be higher - despite the resort being voluntary... there are no "free lunches". But the fact that resale prices are low (and it doesn't really matter if it's $1 or $2000 in the grand scheme on things) doesn't necessarily make it a bargain. To me, it just means the ongoing costs are too high...


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 4, 2010)

James1975NY said:


> Who is easily trading through II to this property? I am sure there plenty of exchanges in with weeks that have less maintenance fees; however, this is a sign of the times - as is the asking price.



James - many of us have exchanged in through II.  I have traded in twice with my inexpensive SDO week with a MF of $600 and I got a 2 bdm. with my 1 bdm.  It is a far easier II trade than WKORV or WKORVN. 



> Has it sold for $1?



No - and I don't think it will, but my guess is that it will go for far less than resales at mandatory WKORV/WKORVN.


----------



## James1975NY (Jun 4, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> James - Maybe your average Hawaii visitor is willing to pay $350 a night for WPORV, but I don't think too many Tuggers would pay that much - especially knowing it's an easy trade through II.



TUG, while a great resource and a tight knit community is also a very small population. Experiences shared on TUG are not the "norm" and are ever changing. I think we can all agree that many of the the experiences and opportunities that many Tuggers are finding are unique to the times.

The *a*verage *d*aily *r*ate for "hotel stays" was $187.69 per night. Which according to FredM's calculation is only about $140 under what per diem cost is for the 2/2 at the Westin Princeville. Keep in mind the ADR I quoted encompasses ALL per diem reservations at ALL vacation properties / hotels. I am pretty confident that the Westin Princeville stands a cut above 85% +/- of the properties available in Kauai and likely the rest of the islands.

Luxury and upscale properties have realized occupancy gains in the first quarter of 2010 versus 2009 with an increase of just under 5%. Not a huge number but a gain none the less. I am a strong believer that the timeshare equation will right itself in the not so distant future.

......and again, lets see where this actuall shills, I mean "sells".


----------



## James1975NY (Jun 4, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> James - many of us have exchanged in through II.  I have traded in twice with my inexpensive SDO week with a MF of $600 and I got a 2 bdm. with my 1 bdm.  It is a far easier II trade than WKORV or WKORVN.
> 
> 
> 
> No - and I don't think it will, but my guess is that it will go for far less than resales at mandatory WKORV/WKORVN.



I know there are many experiences and there will continue to be for some time.......when things change, an internal priority trade with an SVO to SVO property will still be doable but there will be more flexibility required in the future.


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 4, 2010)

James1975NY said:


> TUG, while a great resource and a tight knit community is also a very small population. Experiences shared on TUG are not the "norm" and are ever changing. I think we can all agree that many of the the experiences and opportunities that many Tuggers are finding are unique to the times.



James - I think you are saying that this would still be perceived as a good deal by John Q Public who pays $400 a night for a hotel room in Hawaii. - Maybe so.  But Tuggers are a lot more knowledgeable than that, and I haven't seen one regular here say they'd buy this, even for a dollar - I wouldn't!

I hope the TS market improves, so I can get rid of WKORV, but since WPORV is voluntary and not beach front, I don't think it will ever sell as well as WKORV or WKORVN.


----------



## James1975NY (Jun 4, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> James - I think you are saying that this would still be perceived as a good deal by John Q Public who pays $400 a night for a hotel room in Hawaii. - Maybe so.  But Tuggers are a lot more knowledgeable than that, and I haven't seen one regular here say they'd buy this, even for a dollar - I wouldn't!
> WKORV or WKORVN.



You are correct Denise, that is exactly what I am saying. John Q. Public and William S. Cardholder will see the value and while they are not accustom to the deals and experiences that many Tuggers are accomplishing, even _they_ are not paying "rack" rates these days....not even at $350/night for a 2/2 vacation villa at the Westin Princeville.


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 4, 2010)

James1975NY said:


> You are correct Denise, that is exactly what I am saying.



Phew!  Glad we finally worked that out!   

As always James - we appreciate you sharing your expertise on TUG!  (And I'm not kidding when I say that!)


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 4, 2010)

James1975NY said:


> when things change, an internal priority trade with an SVO to SVO property will still be doable but there will be more flexibility required in the future.



Is this code for, "A little bird told me the II rules/trading power are going to change some more."  

Or are you saying, that when the economy improves, there will be less availability for this resort in II?


----------



## Fredm (Jun 5, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> Because buying, even for a buck, means that you are contractually obligated to pay the MFs, no matter what.  Having MFs in excess of $2M is a really big turnoff for most people.  If they go much higher, you'll not be able to give away these units.



Lisa, you are confusing your situation with the situation of others.
$2270 is a bit rich for me. On the other hand, some find it reasonable. 

No question that it is a turn off to many. But, we have a tendency to confuse matters quite a bit here.
We talk among ourselves about optimal strategies, abstract ROI, mandatory/voluntary, etc, etc. In so doing, we often confuse newbies, and lose sight of the bigger picture. Quality vacations.

Denise started this thread by pointing out a $1 auction on ebay.
Rather than saying "wow!, what a bargain", the thread turns into why it is not worth $1. Are you kidding?

I say we should reinforce the principle of buying where you want to go. The fees speak for themselves.  POR annual fees are ~$2270. 14 nights in quality accommodations at a top tier Hawaii resort is $162/night.  Yes, it will likely be more in the future. So will everything else. 

I can understand why it may not be worth $1 to you. I respectfully
suggest that we all consider the implications of what we post here. 
How can a newbie not be confused? If this keeps up, you will talk your KOR ocean front down to zero, and then blame the m/f's for it happening.


----------



## okwiater (Jun 5, 2010)

Yes, and remember that 1 week in a 2-BR lockoff is actually 2 weeks or more in a studio.

$2270 for 16 nights in a Hawaii resort with kitchenette and top quality accommodations ISN'T that bad. However, I would rather pay ~$1300 for the same, using my WKV StarOptions to trade in. The disparity in MFs between the two resorts makes me wonder if the StarOptions equivalency is sustainable in the long run. I somehow doubt it.


----------



## LisaRex (Jun 5, 2010)

Fredm said:


> I can understand why it may not be worth $1 to you. I respectfully suggest that we all consider the implications of what we post here. How can a newbie not be confused?



FredM, I'm speaking from the POV of an educated consumer, which is exactly what I am.  You speak from the POV of a TS resale agent, which is exactly what you are.  People can read our responses, weigh them, and make a decision based on their own unique situation.  That's why we're all here.  I honestly don't see the problem with both of us co-existing on this site as long as neither of us tries to mislead or distort the truth.  

But for the sake of any newbies, here are my reasons why I'd, PERSONALLY, be reluctant to buy a VOI at WPORV, even for $1: 

1) SVO has a track record for raising MFs significantly at its VOIs. 

I'd suggest newbies look at the historical numbers, and consider whether this is a place that they'd still enjoy staying at in 5 years if MFs continue to increase at the pace that they have increased in the past.   

2) You can easily exchange into WPORV most weeks of the year using II or SVN.

I want all potential buyers to realize that they can currently get into WPORV using II or SVN exchanges most weeks of the year, by buying a much more reasonably priced (in terms of MFs) Starwood VOI.  

As a Hawaii owner, does that pain me to say? Yes, but it's the truth, and I do try to speak the truth. 

3) MFs at WPORV currently are nearly on par with current rental prices on Kauai.  

If you are skeptical, look at Redweek ads.  You can rent at the Marriott Kauai OR WPORV for $300-350/night for a 2 bdrm unit for many weeks of the year.  So consider what advantages you'd get, if any, by locking yourself into a binding contract versus renting?   

***

As to the notion that I, personally, am contributing to the downfall of WKORV by talking it down, I'd encourage you to trot on over to the Marriott board.  If that very loud, vocal group hasn't scared people away from Marriott, then I'm not scaring a soul with my little peep.  

Oh, and FTR, it IS the MFs. Or are you going to tell me that an OF 2 bdrm at the Napili tower just down the road have dropped to $25k, too?


----------



## Fredm (Jun 5, 2010)

Well, so much for trying to be constructive.


----------



## jarta (Jun 5, 2010)

Fredm,   ...   Don't be too discouraged.  They just don't understand markets.

As long as you are going to take the vacation or vacations and a timeshare or timeshares can give you the same or better (more amenities like a balcony and a full kitchen and a washer and dryer) quality experience as a hotel room for a lower per night cost, the specific timeshare's value is more than $1.

I admit quality experience is a little fuzzy, but I can't say it any other way.

I do admit that with escalating MF, the old TUG way of timesharing (buy a lot of em and vacation on the cheap a lot or rent em out for a profit) will go bye-bye.  The margin for error in buying is much smaller as the economics get tighter.  People are and will continue to be priced out of the timeshare vacation market by number of units they own, the MF, cost of travel and general cost of living.  

Timeshares are not really for those on fixed incomes with no large upside when it comes to disposable revenue.  It's tough to say, but it's true.  As I said, the margin for error is smaller.

For those who will replace them (they will not own as many timeshares and there will be less buyers for units for resale), this is a bonanza buying opportunity - as long as they are discriminating about where and when they buy and don't overbuy.  I could have afforded to have bought a second home and carried a 2nd mortgage.  The carrying cost would have been way more than my timeshares.  But, I don't want to go to the same darned place each and every vacation.  So, I bought timeshares for use in winter to get away from the cold and I bought Starwood timeshares for the flexibility of the program to rotate the places I go to.  

For me, my timeshares bring me quality experiences and are very worthwhile.  I am less concerned about people who overbought or now own too many timeshares due to changes in circumstance.  The Chicken Little's will come here on TUG and cry about how much it now costs to own a timeshare and all timeshares are doomed.  When it's about my vacation, what others may think about how much I spend to vacation doesn't matter much to me.

But, I agree with you that the constant knocking of what they actually own has an affect on newbie purchase prices (everyone wants to buy WSJ pool villa for $1) and it can be confusing to a newbie.  I don't mind the confusion.  If a newbie stops and evaluates before purchasing, that's a good thing.   ...   eom


----------



## Transit (Jun 5, 2010)

This auction is nothing more than a lame sellers tactic (1.00 listing) and I willing to bet this unit doesn't get released at a fire sale price. If any of you owned it would you take such a huge loss or find a work around?  Even a PCC would take the time to dispose of this unit for a more realistic market price.This auction is a sham.Nobody is getting that unit for anything near the original listing.


----------



## DanCali (Jun 5, 2010)

Fredm said:


> ...In so doing, we often confuse newbies, and lose sight of the bigger picture. Quality vacations...
> 
> ...I say we should reinforce the principle of buying where you want to go. The fees speak for themselves.  POR annual fees are ~$2270. 14 nights in quality accommodations at a top tier Hawaii resort is $162/night.  Yes, it will likely be more in the future. So will everything else.




Fred - the math above may sound very appealing to someone looking to purchase a resale unit and use it at this resort. I agree - paying almost nothing upfront and getting 7 or 14 days of vacation a year at a reasonable rate, especially given the high quality of the resort, seems attractive. In fact, if I was more comfortable with MFs stabilizing I'd even consider it myself since Kauai is our favorite Hawaiian island. 

However, you say the "bigger picture" is quality vacations and I was trying to focus on the bigger bigger picture - the Starwood value proposition. The resale market currently represents less than 10% of owners (7% is the estimate I read on the Marriott board). So for 90% of current owners the value proposition presented was the one I described earlier - pay Starwood a large chunk of cash for a lifetime of prepaid vacations. Ignoring the immediate loss of equity value, that large chunk of cash has some opportunity cost already in the low 4 figures. Then in addition to that, you have the maintenance fees. Summing those two, you get to the $800/night I calculated earlier.

Timesharing is supposed to make sense for the retail buyers too. If ongoing fees were reasonable, there would be less disparity between retail and resale prices. The fact that the math doesn't work out from day one for the retail buyer is what scares me. I would much rather see resale prices in the $40Ks (as I;m sure would you) and more affordable MFs because that means the model is working. It also means less immediate loss of equity for the retail buyer, and that I'd be more likely to eventually find a buyer myself. At $55K retail and $1 (or $1000) resale, the model is broken. 




DanCali said:


> $370/night is not a the "prepaid vacation" it's marketed to be... an owner buying retail pays $55K+ for an annual and around $35K(?) for an EOY (or maybe "only" half of the EY price if they already own with Starwood). With a 5% opportunity cost that's around $1500 for the EOY and almost $3000 for the annual... Adding the cost of MFs to that makes it a ridiculous value proposition -around $5500 for an annual VOI or * close to $800 a night*.


----------



## DanCali (Jun 5, 2010)

jarta said:


> As long as you are going to take the vacation or vacations and a timeshare or timeshares can give you the same or better (more amenities like a balcony and a full kitchen and a washer and dryer) quality experience as a hotel room for a lower per night cost, the specific timeshare's value is more than $1.
> 
> I admit quality experience is a little fuzzy, but I can't say it any other way.
> 
> ...



jarta - very interesting analysis and I agree with most, if not all of it (although I'm likely guilty a bit of overbuying myself...)

The one comment I want to make is about the sentenc I highlighted above. You make it sound like Starwood and Exclusive Resorts market to the same client base... Last time I checked Starwood requires an annual household income of $75K to attend a sales preview. While that is slightly higher than the median US household income, it is not close to the affluence level you describe is needed, nor to the "$250K" threshold used lately by some to describe (and tax) "rich people". If the reality is changing and Starwood timeshares are for the most affluent people, shouldn't Starwood target accordingly? Otherwise, they are just as quilty in my eyes regarding owners' delinquencies as the owners themselves...


----------



## jarta (Jun 5, 2010)

DanCali,   ...   "I highlighted above. You make it sound like Starwood and Exclusive Resorts market to the same client base... Last time I checked Starwood requires an annual household income of $75K to attend a sales preview."

And, what is the annual household income necessary to buy a timeshare for $1 on eBay?  I have no statistics to back up this feeling:  the developer buyers are not the ones who are in default on hte MFs.

As for Starwood being like Exclusive Resorts, the new Westin timeshares resemble Exclusive Resorts a lot more than the un-renovated Vistana and Sheraton oldies.  Starwood's plan is to upgrade the resorts and upgrade the incomes of the people buying.  It's a plan that is sometimes honored more in the breach.  Gotta move that inventory!

As for the fixed-income people, I can say the truth because I'm on Medicare myself.  lol!   ...   eom


----------



## Ken555 (Jun 5, 2010)

jarta said:


> And, what is the annual household income necessary to buy a timeshare for $1 on eBay?  I have no statistics to back up this feeling:  the developer buyers are not the ones who are in default on hte MFs.



Definitely two sides to this feeling. I believe the opposite. My belief is that those selling new(er) resorts like WLR and WPORV are those who got hit hard in the last few years and can no longer (if ever) afford the MFs. Of course, I'm referring to those who purchased direct. The $75k minimum is, I believe, a requirement to qualify for financing toward purchasing direct... not the on-going annual dues. Of course, it used to be that the MFs were almost an incidental fee after the original purchase purchase while now we're seeing a reversal with $1 weeks that have a $2-3k MF.


----------



## Transit (Jun 5, 2010)

jarta said:


> DanCali,   ...   "I highlighted above. You make it sound like Starwood and Exclusive Resorts market to the same client base... Last time I checked Starwood requires an annual household income of $75K to attend a sales preview."
> The 75K income was probably fine with the 15-25K units but when units were selling for 50K and up the household income requirement should have been raised way up also.
> And, what is the annual household income necessary to buy a timeshare for $1 on eBay?  I have no statistics to back up this feeling:  the developer buyers are not the ones who are in default on hte MFs.
> I disagree, I believe the developer buyers are the ones who were duped by PCC companies into dumping all the units you see on Ebay.
> ...



.....................................


----------



## Transit (Jun 8, 2010)

Starwood R.I.P.


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 8, 2010)

Transit said:


> Starwood R.I.P.



Yeah - it sold for $760!


----------



## Captron (Jun 9, 2010)

I just saw it too and had to look twice! OUCH!!! Nice buy if the buyer has really thought about and accepts the present and likely future of the MF. Then again they could use it for 4-5 yrs and then dump it for nothing or PAY someone $500 to take it and have done fairly well.


----------



## LisaRex (Jun 9, 2010)

Remember the '92 Presidential election with the "It's the economy, stupid" bumper stickers.  I think I'm going to make this my new signature:

"It's the Maintenance Fees, stupid."


----------



## Ken555 (Jun 9, 2010)

This auction simply cannot be representative of it's true value.


----------



## YYJMSP (Jun 9, 2010)

*Household incomes*

Assuming people take 1 week off to use up their 1 unit week, that translates to 1/52 = 2% of your salary.  Let's double that to cover other holiday costs during that week, so we're at 4% of your salary to pay for the cost of that week of holidays.

So (by my very simplistic logic/math), that's the equivalent of multiplying the cost of the unit week by 25, and that is what your income should be to support that vacation.

If you figure the cost is $5500 for that unit week (MFs + 5% opportunity cost), then your income should be in the range of $140,000.

This doesn't take in to account any of the depreciation of the original capital used for purchase...  

If SVO is targeting household incomes of $75,000 for new developer purchases, that might be a bit low, and partially leading to the unpaid MF issues.


If you get the unit for $1 (or $760 in this case), which basically means no 5% opportunity cost, and have the right income level to support using it (around $65,000), I personally think it was a very good deal, especially when there was no up-front cost to take in to consideration.


----------



## LisaRex (Jun 9, 2010)

I think your numbers are low, YYJMSP, considering you can't get to Hawaii except via air.  Airfare has been very high lately.  Yes, you can get deals on occasion, esp from the West Coast, so I suppose you'd have to adjust West Coast bargain hunters down. 

Using just the Maui portion of our trip to Hawaii next week as an example, we'd have spent close to $10k had we not gotten 2.5 award tickets. (I had to pay $700 to round off the account for the 3rd ticket).  Without miles, my family of 4 would have had to spend $4.4k just to get there.  

Here's the retail cost of our upcoming vacation (Maui portion only):

Airfare           $4400*
Luggage fees  $ 200**
MFs              $2600
Car               $ 350 (SUV)
Gas               $ 100 (2 fill-ups)
Activities       $1600***
Groceries       $ 200
Eating out      $ 750 (5 dinners out @ $150 per)
                    $10,200

*We actually spent $1800 total
**We'll actuallyonly spend $50 because I have a Delta Gold Amex and 3 of us get first checked bag free.
***For activities, I booked the following for our family of 4: Zodiak cave/snorkel trip ($550 + $50 tip); Ulalena ($300); Horseback Riding ($440); ziplining ($360+$40 tip = $400).

Now, obviously you can cut corners and spend less (e.g. book an economy rental car or do fewer activities), but even with the award tickets, I'm spending close to $7500 this year.


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 9, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> This auction simply cannot be representative of it's true value.



Well.... I actually think this is a lovely resort,  but as far as I know, no own here bought it, including those who defended this property.   

Between Starwood's voluntary/mandatory policy, and its escalating  maintenance fees, I think they have killed the golden goose!  

The really scary thought is that people are still spending $37K to buy this week from the developer!


----------



## nodge (Jun 9, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> Remember the '92 Presidential election with the "It's the economy, stupid" bumper stickers.  I think I'm going to make this my new signature:
> 
> "It's the Maintenance Fees, stupid."



I think you're on to something, but maybe we should go back a little further in time.  Anyone else remember the "WIN" Buttons from the 70's? (In short, WIN stood for "Whip Inflation Now" and good ol' President Gerald Ford encouraged folks to wear the buttons in an effort to spark a grassroots movement to combat inflation. 

Now, what sort of button could we produce and wear to remind people of the severe consequences associated with SVO management's current unbridled path of self-destruction?

How about:  "COFFIN!" buttons?

Cease
Outrageously 
Frivolous
Fee
Increases
Now!

or

Concerned 
Owners
Fighting
Fee
Increase
Nonsense!

-nodge

Wait!  Forget buttons.  Think . . . . luggage tags.


----------



## James1975NY (Jun 9, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Yeah - it sold for $760!



Has anyone looked at the bidding history?

What does the "(0)" mean next to the Bidder e***e mean?


----------



## James1975NY (Jun 9, 2010)

James1975NY said:


> Has anyone looked at the bidding history?
> 
> What does the "(0)" mean next to the Bidder e***e mean?



Nevermind! I used my super genius to figure it out.


----------



## YYJMSP (Jun 9, 2010)

Sorry, we're heading off topic a bit -- someone feel free to break this discussion in to a separate thread.



LisaRex said:


> I think your numbers are low, YYJMSP, considering you can't get to Hawaii except via air.  Airfare has been very high lately.  Yes, you can get deals on occasion, esp from the West Coast, so I suppose you'd have to adjust West Coast bargain hunters down.



So a week of holiday was 4x the cost of your actual MFs?

I'm figuring our upcoming holiday is going to cost us between 2x and 2.5x MFs (if we'd paid for airfare, etc) -- the 2 weeks on Maui portion is going to cost us around $8,000 out-of-pocket (after free airfare, car rental, etc).

We're a family of 3, so that cut down the total cost immediately.  The rest of my comments are based on "per person".

Airfare from the west coast of Canada is about 25% cheaper than yours.  No luggage fees.

And you're doing more for activities than we are planning on, so your combined activities/groceries/eating out is about 30% more than us, but I'm sure that the girls will make up for it in shopping or something...


----------



## spuppy (Jun 9, 2010)

While it is obvious that income limits how much someone can afford to spend on vacation, I don't see why there is any relationship between 1 week of vacation and 1 week of paycheck.  

If someone spends 1 hour eating every day, should they use how much they make in 1 hour to determine their food budget?



YYJMSP said:


> Assuming people take 1 week off to use up their 1 unit week, that translates to 1/52 = 2% of your salary.  Let's double that to cover other holiday costs during that week, so we're at 4% of your salary to pay for the cost of that week of holidays.
> 
> So (by my very simplistic logic/math), that's the equivalent of multiplying the cost of the unit week by 25, and that is what your income should be to support that vacation.
> 
> ...


----------



## YYJMSP (Jun 10, 2010)

spuppy said:


> While it is obvious that income limits how much someone can afford to spend on vacation, I don't see why there is any relationship between 1 week of vacation and 1 week of paycheck.



My logic was to put some relationship between the amount of holiday time taken and the amount of vacation time earned at work -- my assumption was that the vacation pay earned was used to cover the costs of the holiday time taken.

Each week of paid vacation time earned is the equivalent of 2% of salary.

Obviously, the totals will vary by individual circumstances.  Using the two examples in this thread of budget for a week on Maui, there's a fairly large difference in what is planned on being spent.


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 13, 2010)

Here's another one for $1 - http://cgi.ebay.com/Hawaii-Kauai-Fi...md=ViewItem&pt=Timeshares&hash=item20b14ed6f8

It looks like the same seller - but the units have different numbers.


----------



## DanCali (Jun 13, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Here's another one for $1 - http://cgi.ebay.com/Hawaii-Kauai-Fi...md=ViewItem&pt=Timeshares&hash=item20b14ed6f8
> 
> It looks like the same seller - but the units have different numbers.



Ok - I have to say this because there is no way these auctions should be a benchmark for the value of this resort.

I thought the first auction was mislisted because it didn't have "Starwood" or "Westin" or "Staroptions" in the title and therefore doesn't show up on many people's "standard" ongoing eBay alerts. It did have "Westin Princeville" in the subtitle but that doesn't count for eBay alert purposes - only the title does. At least the subtitle identified the resort and it also got plenty of free advertising in this thread...

This second auction is even worse in that regard... No mention of any of those words in the title or subtitle... no mention of the words "Westin Princeville" together. In fact, the word "Westin" shows up only once in the description ("All villas have intuitively designed floor plans, the conveniences of home and the revitalizing comfort characteristic of Westin") and "Princeville" shows up only in the address of the resort. I actually had to make an effort to figure out what the seller was selling (the MFs gave it away...).

I'm sorry if this comment ruins a good deal for someone, but as much as I hate the voluntary resort concept, it'd be unfair to set the Tugger pricing benchmark based on these auctions. My guess is that if these deals go through and the prices we've seen, the buyers can flip these for a nice profit with a little patience (but obviously since I'm pointing this out - I'm not that confident to actually play that game, especially with ~$2400 in MFs on the line per use year and no Staroptions to use it myself on the mainland...).

ADDED: In fact - here is a recent post regarding low prices on SVV, which in my opinion happened for a similar reason (looks like it could be the same seller - seller id is different but auction listing format looks very similar).


----------



## SDKath (Jun 13, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Here's another one for $1 - http://cgi.ebay.com/Hawaii-Kauai-Fi...md=ViewItem&pt=Timeshares&hash=item20b14ed6f8
> 
> It looks like the same seller - but the units have different numbers.



This seller is Wanted Weeks, FYI!  STAY AWAY!

Katherine


----------



## DanCali (Jun 13, 2010)

SDKath said:


> This seller is Wanted Weeks, FYI!  STAY AWAY!
> 
> Katherine



If it is the same seller as the one I referenced above in the last paragraph of my previous post, he got a pretty strong endorsement from jerseygirl. The seller id is different but the auction listing looks to have the same template.


----------



## Captron (Jun 15, 2010)

*What about this WPORV currently at $1.25....*

There are 4 days left but holy cow!!!!! Waiting to see the conclusion!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...87544&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_4638wt_1133


----------



## James1975NY (Jun 15, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Ok - I have to say this because there is no way these auctions should be a benchmark for the value of this resort.
> 
> I thought the first auction was mislisted because it didn't have "Starwood" or "Westin" or "Staroptions" in the title and therefore doesn't show up on many people's "standard" ongoing eBay alerts. It did have "Westin Princeville" in the subtitle but that doesn't count for eBay alert purposes - only the title does. At least the subtitle identified the resort and it also got plenty of free advertising in this thread...
> 
> ...



Something is not right with both of them. Until I hear from the person that bought the first auction for $760, I will not believe it was a clean deal nor will I believe that there was no foul play. I wouldnt be surprised if the second auction is a replay of the first with a different unit number listed. At the end of the day it would be pretty easy for the "seller" to put the original unit number on the sales contracts and explain that the unit number does not have an impact outside of the fact that it confirms the unit type being sold.


----------



## Captron (Jun 20, 2010)

Captron said:


> There are 4 days left but holy cow!!!!! Waiting to see the conclusion!
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...87544&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_4638wt_1133



It closed at $560!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## DanCali (Jun 20, 2010)

*Not representative?*



Captron said:


> It closed at $560!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Like i said earlier - i think both of these were listed terribly. I don't think the price is representative. I'd like to see what one sells for when "Westin Princeville" is in the title of the auction...


----------



## weh8625 (Jun 21, 2010)

*Lockoff*

I'm currently in the market for a Kauai timeshare on Ebay right now.

I saw the Westin Princeville pop up (Ebay Item number: 220622159443)

Certainly the $2000 MF's are very high for a 2 bedroom lockoff.

Can I think of it as 2 - 1 bedroom units since it's a lockoff?

What is the trading power of half the unit on Interval? Is it really the equivalent of 2 one bedroom units, or is more like a 2 bedroom unit cut in half?

We plan on going to Kauai every 4-5 years, and trading or renting the rest of the time.

Thanks in advance for your answers,
Will


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 21, 2010)

weh8625 said:


> I'm currently in the market for a Kauai timeshare on Ebay right now.
> 
> I saw the Westin Princeville pop up (Ebay Item number: 220622159443)
> 
> ...



No - it is a 1 bdm. and a studio. - floor plan



> What is the trading power of half the unit on Interval? Is it really the equivalent of 2 one bedroom units, or is more like a 2 bedroom unit cut in half?



Most people would never consider trading a TS that's this expensive with II.  It's kind of like depositing your Mercedes in a pool of Chevy's.  If you can't go to Hawaii, every year, consider buying an every other year deed.



> We plan on going to Kauai every 4-5 years, and trading or renting the rest of the time.



If you aren't going to use it most of the time yourself, it's not a good value to buy in Hawaii.  Because it's not on the beach, this resort isn't a great rental, either.  If I wanted to go every 4-5 years, I'd buy a good trader and trade in, or rent from another owner.  

There was just a huge deposit with II from this resort, and you can use a very inexpensive voluntary Starwood trader to trade in, like Sheraton Desert Oasis.  Pick up a small 1 bdm. for less then $500 on ebay, with a maintenance fee of about $600 and trade in for a fraction of the cost of owning there.  It just doesn't make financial sense to pay this huge maintenance fee for a TS you aren't going to use every year.


----------



## weh8625 (Jun 21, 2010)

*Thanks Denise*

Denise,
Thanks for the quick reply and great advice.
You and others on Tug have been a great source of information for me and others learning about timeshares.

This is a great resource.


----------



## Transit (Jun 21, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I don't think the price is representative.



The problem with this quote is that it has been stated much lately for ebay Starwood timeshares sales.


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Jun 21, 2010)

Transit said:


> The problem with this quote is that it has been stated much lately for ebay Starwood timeshares sales.



I agree completely.  Without manadatory Staroptions, the resale prices of Starwood doesn't hold up at all.  The excessive maintenance fees are the problem with the island Westins.  People cannot afford to pay huge percentage increases in fees every year.

I wouldn't pay $560 for that week, because the fees keep me from doing it.


----------



## jarta (Jun 21, 2010)

TUG sober dissections and pronouncements about the entrails of eBay auctions makes me laugh.  Even if an auction results in a sale, eBay does not make the market for timeshares.

Weeks sold on the eBay niche market are distress or forced sales.  They are not representative of sellers or sales in general.

Buyers on eBay are also too scarce to represent the marketplace.  Many people will not buy on eBay (for some pretty good reasons).  IMO, TUG members make up the majority of bidders on eBay and are the reason WKV units sell for as much as they do on eBay.  It's TUG members bidding against other TUG members with a generally agreed to $17-18K ceiling.

The timeshare market is certainly way down because discretionary income is way down.  All eBay auction prices represent these days is the lack of bottom-feeder timeshare bidders on eBay these days.  It appears TUG watchers have reached their saturation point.

*However, eBay is a really great place to pick up Starwood, or Marriott or any other branded weeks from panicked or bankrupt sellers at bottom-feeder prices.*   ...   eom


----------



## Transit (Jun 21, 2010)

jarta said:


> Even if an auction results in a sale, eBay does not make the market for timeshares.


Anyone who does a little homework on resales will come across the fire sale prices on Ebay.

Who makes the market value for timeshares ? I'd like to see some "real market" resale values.

A Marriott owner told me the same thing about Orlando unit being a steal ($3000) on Ebay and that "the price was not an indication of the real market".compare that to Starwood -$1.00 Orlando ebay sales at similar resorts.

At what point do average prices on ebay become the an indication of the real market? Are you saying this can never be considered?

You can be sure that the thousands of resale buyers in the market that have found TUG used or considered Ebay as an option.

Would you pay more for a timeshare than the average price point you have been seeing on ebay? I wouldn't  knowing what I have seen.

I'm not saying that Ebay is the price point for resales but we can't continually dismiss these sales as "not a real indication of market prices" when they continue to routinely offer Starwood units at fire sale prices.
We are not just seeing the lesser resorts listed but newer resorts and top end resorts at seriously depressed prices.


----------



## DavidnRobin (Jun 21, 2010)

I would not dismiss eBay sales - but at the same time I would not use them as a WPORV price barometer.  As often stated in the eBay sales thread (which was created for this topic - btw) - just because an ebay auction was completed - does not mean the sale was.  To often - we have seen the same auction (from the same seller) get relisted.  Also - SVO does have a ROFR for WPORV.  The only way to truly know is to get WPORV prices from the Recorders Office.


----------



## jarta (Jun 21, 2010)

Two years ago I twice purchased Starwood weeks on eBay.  They were bought at fire sale prices.  They were also bought at higher prices than auctions on eBay now generate.

You can generalize that the timeshare market has collapsed by looking at the prices on eBay.  That's about all you can do, though.

Seriously and soberly analyzing each $1 sale as if it actually represents a true market value of any property is inane.  What the $1 sale represents is a lack of bidders in a very limited offering situation.  You get $1 final bids when you have 3 days (or so) for people to bid on properties where the buyer realizes the seller might not be able to give good title because the ad reveals an unfamiliarity with the product.

James1975NY and Fredm can tell you what timeshare units sell for.  They sell for much less than they did a year or two ago.  However, they do not sell for $1 for WMH or $700 for WPORV.  And, prime weeks sell for much more now comparatively as timeshare buyers are more picky and realize that fixed weeks give no flexibility and summer weeks in the desert are merely a way to collect MF from the unwary - unless the week can be traded for weeks using II - which is suffering from a glut of inventory to unload for whatever added fees it can manage to charge.

After saying all that, I still believe tremendous bargains can be had on eBay for good weeks at good places - voluntary or mandatory.  If I needed more timeshares or wanted to restructure my deck, now would be the time to act.  But, I am happy with what and where I own.   ...   eom


----------



## Transit (Jun 21, 2010)

DavidnRobin said:


> I would not dismiss eBay sales - but at the same time I would not use them as a WPORV price barometer.  As often stated in the eBay sales thread (which was created for this topic - btw)



I think Denise posted this thread separately because it was unusual auction.I'm hoping to not see more of the same.


Yes, It disturbs me when I see these.


----------



## PamMo (Jun 21, 2010)

*High MF's are an issue*

We own several timeshares and love both sections of WKORV (we went for three weeks last year), but the MF's put the brakes on my desire to purchase there. I've been watching the WKORV eBay auctions and won one a few months ago, but rescinded when the listing proved incorrect. Last week's oceanview unit in Bldg 3 was a SUPER buy (mostly due to the poorly written eBay listing, I think). I was very tempted, but I'm concerned that MF's will be up to $3,000 next year for a standard 2BR (not just the "deluxe" corner units). I'm not sure owning vs renting makes a lot of sense for us.


----------



## DanCali (Jun 23, 2010)

> I don't think the price is representative





Transit said:


> The problem with this quote is that it has been stated much lately for ebay Starwood timeshares sales.




Frank - I don't disagree that the high MFs and voluntary designation of many resorts have destroyed value. I have been very vocal on these topics in the past (even had my ID on TUG as StarwoodMFs2HI for a few days). All I am saying is let's not jump to conclusions about resale prices based on auctions which are clearly mislisted in the sense that the resort name is not listed in the auction title, and the auction info doesn't get blasted to hundreds(?) of people with eBay seaches.

Case in point, which is more representative:

This:



djyamyam said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320545955824&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
> 
> I know the MFs are really high but still, this is ridiculous.  I'm guessing it's an island view but this would still be a phenomenal deal.


(the above auction has the resort name in the subtitle, but not the title)

or this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350368111259 ?

These mislisted auctions can be a great buy for someone and can even be flipped for a handsome profit if you can afford the risk of carrying the inventory, have the time to scour eBay for these, and have the capital to invest. Of course, you'd owe a short-term capital gain tax on it if you hold it for less than a year, which makes it somewhat less attaractive...


----------



## Tokyo_Al (Jun 25, 2010)

*What am I missing?*

I'm a TOTAL newbie to the SVO TS resale market, but we have owned Vistana Villages for some years.  We're looking to get some more Star Options, hence my interest in this thread.  Here's what I don't get:

When we buy one of these properties, seems like what we're really doing, after initial and transaction costs, is buying star options.  But the MF:SO ratio gets worse the "better" the property you buy ... my current  V.V. 1 bedroom (44,000 SO) has a MF of $700,  or 1.6 cents per SO point.  If I were to get the 2BR L/O on ebay, we're looking at a MF of $1,600 and 81,000 SO, or about 1.9 cents per SO point.  Similarly, if we go with the Harbourside at Atlantis 3BR L/O, it gets even worse (MF:$2,700; 125,000 SO, or 2.2 cents per SO point).

Assuming we just accumulate points to get the vacations where and when we want, doesn't it make more sense to just buy a string of 1BRs?  

What is the value proposition for buying something like a 3BR L/O?


----------



## DeniseM (Jun 25, 2010)

Hi and welcome to TUG!

Most people fee that a 2 bdm. Plat week at Westin Kierland Villas has the best Staroption to Maintenance fee ratio.

Staroptions = 148,100 : maintenance fee = $1,237.30

The most expensive resorts are not the best Staroption traders.

Are you aware that you can make Starwood to Starwood trades with  Interval International?  Starwood owners get first dibs on all Starwood deposits, so with a very inexpensive resale, you can trade into most of the Starwood  resorts off-season, except for Westin St. John which is pretty much impossible.


----------



## Tokyo_Al (Jun 25, 2010)

Wow ... that IS a great deal!  I'll keep my eyes open for that package.

SO much to learn here; time to fork over my $15!

Thanks for the tip

A


----------



## DavidnRobin (Jun 25, 2010)

Tokyo_Al said:


> I'm a TOTAL newbie to the SVO TS resale market, but we have owned Vistana Villages for some years.  We're looking to get some more Star Options, hence my interest in this thread.  Here's what I don't get:
> 
> When we buy one of these properties, seems like what we're really doing, after initial and transaction costs, is buying star options.  But the MF:SO ratio gets worse the "better" the property you buy ... my current  V.V. 1 bedroom (44,000 SO) has a MF of $700,  or 1.6 cents per SO point.  If I were to get the 2BR L/O on ebay, we're looking at a MF of $1,600 and 81,000 SO, or about 1.9 cents per SO point.  Similarly, if we go with the Harbourside at Atlantis 3BR L/O, it gets even worse (MF:$2,700; 125,000 SO, or 2.2 cents per SO point).
> 
> ...



Hi Al - welcome to TUG - I assume you bought your SVV from Starwood (SVO) - try and buy resale if you are looking to increase your SVO portfolio.

The value of a SVO VOI (TS) is more than the $/SO - there are many other factors involved - not inclusive - MF and MF increases, resale value, exchange value,  rentability, home resort ownership (buy where you want to go), SO-SP conversion - and importantly how you want to vacation.

While this WPORV ebay sale was a completed auction - based on the seller (esp) - I would not assume in closed.  However, WPORV has taken a big hit in price.  If Home ownership at WPORV is not important (it is for us) - buy something you can trade into WPORV (easily).


----------

