# Renting a "Home Resort" and impact of combining/banking SO from multiple mandatory resorts



## skibummer (Aug 30, 2017)

So I own two weeks of a Plat+ 2 bdr lock-off at Westin Kierland Villas (mandatory) and 1 week of Plat+ in Westin Lagunamar (voluntary). I am closing on two Vistana Villages-Bella (mandatory) section 2 bdr (non lock-off) Platinum weeks-all resales, thanks TUG .  I have rented my home resort weeks (WKV and WLR) and understand how that process works. I understand how voluntary bookings work (1 wk blocks, same room type and same season only). I understand that you are NOT allowed to rent weeks you don't own but book with SO. For example, if I were to use my WKV SO to book a week at WKORV (I don't own there at all) and then rent out WKORV-this is not allowed. What is the interpretation of "home resort" since I own weeks at WKV and WLR and now are adding weeks from SVV-Bella? Anything booked 8 months out uses SO even at home resorts (excluding voluntary resorts) so how does Vistana keep track of where the SO come from? In other words, may I book a 7 month reservation using SVV-Bella SO for WKV or WLR and rent those since I own at all 3 resorts? How about if I combine and/or bank points from WKV and SVV? How well does Vistana track and allocate the points and monitor rentals. I'm not sure how to define "home resort" and the impact of renting given my above circumstances, especially if I start combining SO from multiple mandatory resorts and/or banking points from multiple mandatory resorts to use in later years. Thanks in advance for all the wise TUG input.


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## DeniseM (Aug 30, 2017)

All Staroption reservations list the Staroptions used on the confirmation, and all home resort reservations have the words Home Resort Reservation on the confirmation, so they have no problem differentiating between them.

With Vistana, it's a don't ask - don't tell situation.


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## skibummer (Aug 30, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> All Staroption reservations list the Staroptions used on the confirmation, and all home resort reservations have the words Home Resort Reservation on the confirmation, so they have no problem differentiating between them.
> 
> With Vistana, it's a don't ask - don't tell situation.


Denise, So if I book a 7 month reservation for WKV using my SO from WKV it will show a "Staroptions reservation rather than a "Home Resort" reservation? Likewise, following your response, a 7 month reservation for WKV using SVV points will show the same? So all the Staroptions are pooled together from all my mandatory resorts? It sounds like as long as I am renting using SO bookings only at resorts that I am an owner I should be ok? It just became confusing to me when I start to combine SO across multiple mandatory resorts and potentially bank points into subsequent years. Thanks


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## DeniseM (Aug 30, 2017)

*ALL* reservations made within 8 mos. of check-in are Staroption reservations - *even at your home resort.*

Staroptions are not pooled, unless they are banked.  When you make a Staroption reservation, you can choose which resort to use the Staroptions from, or choose to use banked Staroptions (if you have any banked.)

When you make a Home Resort Reservation, you reserve the week you own - it's not a Staroption transaction.


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## aus (Aug 30, 2017)

Great topic and info from DeniseM.

Is there a difference in renting a Mandatory vs. a Voluntary resort if you own it?


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## DeniseM (Aug 30, 2017)

No - home resort reservations say "Home Resort" whether it's voluntary or mandatory.  

Here are 2 screen shots of my SDO home resort reservation - voluntary, and my WKORV reservation - mandatory:


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## Henry M. (Aug 31, 2017)

The confirmation for reservations you make says:

_Rental of units reserved using StarOptions® (other than a vacation period at your Home Resort) is prohibited. Violation may result in the suspension of an Owner’s right to reserve within the Vistana Signature Network™ until compliant._

It seems pretty clear to me that you can only rent units at your home resort (even if made less than 8 months out). Mixing in Staroptions from other resorts is not allowed. Whether Vistana would know or enforce the requirement is a different question. 

Some might try to justify renting units at different resorts than their home resort reserved with banked options, but that clearly goes against the intent of the rules. You should only rent units reserved with Staroptions from the resort you own.


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## Markus (Aug 31, 2017)

skibummer said:


> Denise, So if I book a 7 month reservation for WKV using my SO from WKV it will show a "Staroptions reservation rather than a "Home Resort" reservation? Likewise, following your response, a 7 month reservation for WKV using SVV points will show the same? So all the Staroptions are pooled together from all my mandatory resorts? It sounds like as long as I am renting using SO bookings only at resorts that I am an owner I should be ok? It just became confusing to me when I start to combine SO across multiple mandatory resorts and potentially bank points into subsequent years. Thanks


You can only rent out a reservation made at your home resort with staroptions from the deed from which the staroptions originate from. Anything else is prohibited. To date, this has not been enforced to my knowledge. However this could be enforced at any time. You would not want to see this enforced when your renter is checking in and access to the property is denied, and your usage in SVN is denied until you become compliant. Not worth the risk.
This rule is there to protect home resort owners at resorts with higher maintenance fees from being undercut, by the process you are contemplating above.
Markus


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## JohnPaul (Aug 31, 2017)

I have star options at Sheraton Mountain Vista in Avon.  If I buy more at a mandatory resort, can I pull star options from either/both when I want to make a reservation somewhere.  Specifically, if I want to book winter at Avon and don't have enough Avon star options can I supplement with star options from the other mandatory resort I would own?

Many thanks!


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## VacationForever (Aug 31, 2017)

JohnPaul said:


> I have star options at Sheraton Mountain Vista in Avon.  If I buy more at a mandatory resort, can I pull star options from either/both when I want to make a reservation somewhere.  Specifically, if I want to book winter at Avon and don't have enough Avon star options can I supplement with star options from the other mandatory resort I would own?
> 
> Many thanks!


Yes, Star Options can be pooled.  But you can only book at 8 months since you do not own the winter season, as you indicated you do not have enough star options at SMV.


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## skibummer (Aug 31, 2017)

emuyshondt said:


> The confirmation for reservations you make says:
> 
> _Rental of units reserved using StarOptions® (other than a vacation period at your Home Resort) is prohibited. Violation may result in the suspension of an Owner’s right to reserve within the Vistana Signature Network™ until compliant._
> 
> ...



So I am not trying to be obtuse, but my original statement is I am a new owner at all 3 resorts (WKV, WLR, and SVV) so are they are all considered my "home resorts"? I am NOT looking to rent a resort week that I am not an owner (such as WKORV) with SO from WKV or SVV-Bella (I get that and I don't need that statement clarified).  Someone in this thread above previously made the statement " You should only rent units reserved with StarOptions from the resort you own." I own at all 3 so that is what I am trying to determine from my original post. I am a new owner of these units within the past year and don't understand all the nuances of the Vistana program. I bought all my units resale and am not sure what is the definition of "home resort". I just need clarification to know what I can and cannot do given multiple ownerships of mandatory resorts.


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## VacationForever (Aug 31, 2017)

You are allowed to rent a Home Resort booking, with the words Home Resort marked on the reservation.  Anything else you are going against the rules.


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## skibummer (Aug 31, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> You are allowed to rent a Home Resort booking, with the words Home Resort marked on the reservation.  Anything else you are going against the rules.


DeniseM (the moderator) stated that *ALL* reservations less than 8 months out will show as Star Options reservation, even if I only owned a single week at WKV and I rented what I owned booked less than 8 months out at my home resort. Those reservations are allowed to be rented as well and it is not against the rules-It is my Home Resort. Your statement means only a home resort reservation made 8-12 months out can be rented and all home resort reservations made less than 8 months out can't be rented because they will be titled as a Star Options reservation rather than a Home Resort reservation. See below from her post #4

 "*ALL* reservations made within 8 mos. of check-in are Staroption reservations - *even at your home resort. *(post #4)


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## DeniseM (Aug 31, 2017)

There has been an ongoing debate on TUG about whether a *Staroption reservation*, _made by an owner at their home resort_, is valid for rental or not, because the verbiage is not completely clear:

_Rental of units reserved using StarOptions® (other than a vacation period at your Home Resort) is prohibited._

At this point in time, Vistana does have published limitations on renting Staroption reservations, but they do not seem to be interested in enforcing it.  Owners say that sometimes when you call to get a guest confirmation they will quote the rule to you, but they don't actually _ask_ if you are renting your reservation.

In fact, there has been some speculation that Vistana may be distancing themselves from rentals/renters so they don't have to deal with it, because they _no longer_ record guest's contact info, and they will _no longer_ communicate directly with guests, so they have no way of knowing if you are renting your timeshare or not - unless you tell them. 

In other words - they now have plausible deniability, because they have changed their procedures so they have no direct contact with guests.

So at this time, it is a don't ask - don't tell situation.


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## Henry M. (Sep 1, 2017)

I agree that Vistana isn't enforcing things, but the rule is pretty clear. You have to use Staroptions from your home resort or your home resort period if you want to rent out the reservation. Even if you have co-mingled all your banked Staroptions, you should know how many you have from the resort you want to rent out. If you don't have enough from that particular resort, then you shouldn't rent out the reservation. Sure you can drive above the speed limit, and as long as you don't get caught or the cops don't check, you'll get away with it. However, you are still doing something illegal though no one is looking. 

The whole intent of the program is that you should only rent what you own. If you already went to WLR this year and you haven't been banking WLR Staroptions, then you shouldn't make a WLR reservation to rent it out. Now if you want to go there yourself, the you can use any Staroptions you have from any of your properties to stay there. 

You can twist things many ways to try to justify renting reservations you make, but keep the intent of the program in mind when you consider what is right or what is wrong. Don't ask, don't tell doesn't really make it right. It is up to your conscience to do the right thing, though.


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## okwiater (Sep 1, 2017)

emuyshondt said:


> I agree that Vistana isn't enforcing things, but the rule is pretty clear. You have to use Staroptions from your home resort or your home resort period if you want to rent out the reservation.



emuyshondt is correct. You should only rent a reservation that is backed by deeded usage (or HomeOptions) that you own. Just because someone owns, for example, a single contract at WKORV doesn't mean they can then use a bucketful of WKV deeds to reserve and rent a dozen more WKORV weeks. Every time you reserve something that you don't own, it reduces the inventory available to owners. Which is fine if the reservation is for your own use, but not if you intend to rent it for a profit.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2017)

Keep in mind that any SO reservation is also going to have a $59 guest certificate fee. So if there is a fee, then technically one would not be renting their home resort reservation.


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## skibummer (Sep 1, 2017)

Ok so if I understand some of the responses correctly, even though I own at both resorts you can't use one for the other. It's not enough to be an owner at both, I can only use from the same resort for rentals (WKV for WKV and SVV for SVV, but not WKV for SVV), even if I own at both resorts, right? I was thinking if I owned at both they would both be considered "home resorts". I'm new to the ownership and want to maximize my purchases and usage while staying within the boundaries of the rules. It gets a bit confusing for us new owners. Thanks for the clarification. I have had more than one broker list one of the benefits of buying "Vistana property x" as renting it out in Hawaii. You would think they would know what is allowed as this becomes confusing to hear this as a new buyer.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2017)

skibummer said:


> Ok so if I understand some of the responses correctly, even though I own at both resorts you can't use one for the other. It's not enough to be an owner at both, I can only use from the same resort for rentals (WKV for WKV and SVV for SVV, but not WKV for SVV), even if I own at both resorts, right? I was thinking if I owned at both they would both be considered "home resorts". I'm new to the ownership and want to maximize my purchases and usage while staying within the boundaries of the rules. It gets a bit confusing for us new owners. Thanks for the clarification. I have had more than one broker who handled my transactions list one of the benefits of buying SVV as renting it out in Hawaii. You would think they would know what is allowed as this becomes confusing to hear this as a new buyer.


It only matters if you want to rent the week you reserve out to someone else. If you don't plan to do that, the source of the SOs don't matter. The rule though is, if you have to wait until 8 months out to reserve it, it is an SO reservation, regardless of where the SOs came from.


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## Henry M. (Sep 1, 2017)

Just consider how it would be fair for an owner of Hawaii for an owner of SVV to take a week that the Hawaii owner wants to use only to rent it out for huge profit. As an owner, you can use any Staroptions you have to go anywhere. However, renting out for a profit is a different matter. 

The issue is Vistana has not really enforced the rules, so people do get away with buying cheap Staroptions to take away weeks from those that have paid much more. You can skirt the rules and do things you're not supposed to. Some feel they are very smart by doing so.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2017)

emuyshondt said:


> The issue is Vistana has not really enforced the rules, so people do get away with buying cheap Staroptions to take away weeks from those that have paid much more. You can skirt the rules and do things you're not supposed to. Some feel they are very smart by doing so.


They aren't really taking the weeks away from the owners though, since the owner had a four month head start to book the week. I would think that most real great rentalable prime reservations are probably long gone before the SO window ever opens.


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## Henry M. (Sep 1, 2017)

Owners should always have first dibs at their home resort. Other exchangers are welcome to come in for their own use, but not to rent out more expensive resorts than they own, for a profit.


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## dewdrops (Sep 1, 2017)

Does Vistana get to grab everything at 60 days out and rent for cash/points (profits) like some of the other resort systems?

In that case, would it be more palatable for the enterprising multi resort multi week owner to make a profit rather than Vistana? So enterprising owner should just grab the units when they can, staroptions, deeds or not.  Or does Vistana profits filter back to all owners, in that Vistana won't raise management fees, etc.


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## DeniseM (Sep 1, 2017)

Yes - Vistana can confiscate any unreserved inventory at 60 days out, rent it, and put the money in their pocket.  The owners of the weeks have already paid the maintenance fees, so Vistana doesn't have to pay anything for them.


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## Helios (Sep 1, 2017)

Is it just me or posters are still not saying the same thing?  In reading this, it seems the debeate continues...

The question of can you rent a reservation made at your home resort for the unit type you own in the Season you own if it is made past the 8 mark has not been agreed on by all.  Some posters say yes some say no...

I think you can.  Even if it is made after the 8 months mark.


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## Helios (Sep 1, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> Keep in mind that any SO reservation is also going to have a $59 guest certificate fee. So if there is a fee, then technically one would not be renting their home resort reservation.


This is mostly true, but not all the time.  Not all owners pay to change a name.  Don't remember the exact rule now, I believe you only pay if you are changing the name for a non network week.  Or is it that you get one name change per year per network you own?


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## DeniseM (Sep 1, 2017)

The rule is that you have to pay a fee for _Staroption reservations_, except for 5 Star Elite Owner, and they get free guest confirmations - 1 per deed.

There is no Guest Confirmation fee for _Home Resort Reservations_ - we successfully knocked that down when Vistana tried to implement it several months ago.


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## Helios (Sep 1, 2017)

Thanks for the clarification/reminder.  

So this benefit of one change per deed does not extend to all owners, not even 4*?


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## DeniseM (Sep 1, 2017)

I stand corrected - both 4 and 5 Star owners get free confirmations:  Here is the original letter, that Vistana sent to Elite Owners -


> Dear Elite Owner,
> 
> Recently you received an email about the application of a third-party guest fee for members of the Vistana Signature Network (VSN). We’d like to provide additional information to help answer any questions you may have.
> 
> ...


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## Helios (Sep 1, 2017)

Thanks.  I seemed to recall something about 4*...


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## Henry M. (Sep 2, 2017)

I agree with you, Helios. The confirmation statement from Vistana, when you make a reservation, clearly states that 

_Rental of units reserved using StarOptions® (other than a vacation period at your Home Resort) is prohibited._

I don't see any ambiguity in that statement. If you are using a vacation period at your home resort, whether through Staroptions from that resort or a home resort reservation, you can rent it. If you are using Staroptions from any other resort to exchange into it (even if you also own a different interval at that resort) you cannot rent that reservation.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 2, 2017)

emuyshondt said:


> I agree with you, Helios. The confirmation statement from Vistana, when you make a reservation, clearly states that
> 
> _Rental of units reserved using StarOptions® (other than a vacation period at your Home Resort) is prohibited._
> 
> I don't see any ambiguity in that statement. If you are using a vacation period at your home resort, whether through Staroptions from that resort or a home resort reservation, you can rent it. If you are using Staroptions from any other resort to exchange into it (even if you also own a different interval at that resort) you cannot rent that reservation.


What if I own a studio in Hawaii and enough StarOptions at SVV to book a 2BR unit anywhere and use those SVV Options to book a 2BR in Hawaii and rent it. Is that allowed based on the above statement? That is where the ambiguity comes in.


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## Markus (Sep 2, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> What if I own a studio in Hawaii and enough StarOptions at SVV to book a 2BR unit anywhere and use those SVV Options to book a 2BR in Hawaii and rent it. Is that allowed based on the above statement? That is where the ambiguity comes in.


You could only rent the studio portion because that is what you own in Hawaii. The other part of the lock off, 1 bedroom, would be personal use.
Markus


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## skibummer (Sep 2, 2017)

I thought the whole discussion earlier in this thread determined even if you own at let's say WKV (a 2 bdr platinum) and you have enough SVV SO to exchange into the same 2 bedroom at WKV (same example as above) you can't rent it even though you own the same week and type and season...now I'm totally confused. How is that different than the previous example where you say he can rent off his SVV SO resi the same size that he owns in Hawaii (studio)??


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2017)

skibummer - First of all, these are just opinions based on Tugger's _interpretations_ of rather vague rules.

These are the opinions that have been expressed:

If you own at resort A, and use Staroptions from resort A, to make a reservation at resort A, you *can* rent it.

If you own at resort A and B, and use Staroptions from resort A, to make a reservation at resort B, you *cannot* rent it.​
There are also people on TUG that express the opinion that you cannot rent any Staroption reservations, regardless of the source of the Staroptions. 

Again - these are opinions.


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## Henry M. (Sep 2, 2017)

Denise,

The statement printed on the reservation confirmation is pretty clear and indicates what you wrote.


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2017)

Hi Henry - I am just listing the different opinions that have been posted on TUG. 

There are some owners who are adamant that NO Staroption reservations can ever be rented.  (Where are you Dave?)

Just reviewing the history of this topic on TUG, for new comers.


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## Henry M. (Sep 2, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> What if I own a studio in Hawaii and enough StarOptions at SVV to book a 2BR unit anywhere and use those SVV Options to book a 2BR in Hawaii and rent it. Is that allowed based on the above statement? That is where the ambiguity comes in.



That would not be allowed. You could only rent the studio in Hawaii, booked with its corresponding Staroptions. You could not use Staroptions from anywhere else to reserve different sized units and then rent them out. You could not use Staroptions from anywhere else to reserve a second studio to rent out. 

It really isn't complicated. You can only rent what you own at a specific location. Using Staroptions from other locations to rent out is not allowed.

The statement in the confirmation you get when you make a reservation is not ambiguous. It indicates renal of units reserved with Staroptions is prohibited, except at your home resort. 

Owning at multiple resorts has nothing to do with this. You can only rent what you own at a given resort. Once that vacation interval is used up, you cannot rent out units there reserved with Staroptions from other resorts. You would not be reserving at the home resort associated with those options.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

dioxide45 said:


> What if I own a studio in Hawaii and enough StarOptions at SVV to book a 2BR unit anywhere and use those SVV Options to book a 2BR in Hawaii and rent it. Is that allowed based on the above statement? That is where the ambiguity comes in.


Markus said it well.  SOs from another resort (SVV in this case) cannot be used to reserve and rent in Hawaii.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

skibummer said:


> I thought the whole discussion earlier in this thread determined even if you own at let's say WKV (a 2 bdr platinum) and you have enough SVV SO to exchange into the same 2 bedroom at WKV (same example as above) you can't rent it even though you own the same week and type and season...now I'm totally confused. How is that different than the previous example where you say he can rent off his SVV SO resi the same size that he owns in Hawaii (studio)??


The difference is the source of the SOs you are using for the reservation.  Vistana can track this easily and you can assign them when you make the reservation.  I think the SOs source should be visible at all times but it is not for owners after the reservation is confirmed (you can call and ask).  Non Hawaii SOs (this, of course, is resort specific not state specific) cannot be used to reserve and rent in Hawaii.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> skibummer - First of all, these are just opinions based on Tugger's _interpretations_ of rather vague rules.
> 
> These are the opinions that have been expressed:
> 
> ...



I agree with this, these are just opinions.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

In my experience, if I own unit type X in season Y at resort Z and make a reservation past 8 months for this exact combination and call to change the name in the reservation I have been reminded that I cannot rent a unit in a season and resort I don't own.  I acknowledge that and we are good.  I cannot believe I am going against the rules, as presented to me in writing or via the phone, just because I did not reserve what I own before 8 months of arrival.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

emuyshondt said:


> It really isn't complicated. You can only rent what you own at a specific location. Using Staroptions from other locations to rent out is not allowed.
> 
> *The statement in the confirmation you get when you make a reservation is not ambiguous. It indicates renal of units reserved with Staroptions is prohibited, except at your home resort.*
> 
> Owning at multiple resorts has nothing to do with this. You can only rent what you own at a given resort. Once that vacation interval is used up, you cannot rent out units there reserved with Staroptions from other resorts. You would not be reserving at the home resort associated with those options.


Looks clear to me...


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

Now, for some controversy...

What if you own unit type* X* in season *Y* at resort *Z* and reserve unit type* X (or another unit smaller than yours)* in season *A (or another season lower than yours)* at resort *Z* and make a reservation past 8 months and want to rent it......That's the potential loop hole.  You are Paying MFs to resort *Z *but you are not renting what you own.  I believe this should not be done...

wow, sometimes I crack myself up...


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2017)

Hawaii and Harborside are the strongest rentals, and this could happen at Harborside, but not Hawaii, since Hawaii has no seasons.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Hawaii and Harborside are the strongest rentals, and this could happen at Harborside, but not Hawaii, since Hawaii has no seasons.


Correct (partially), because there is no seasonality variation in Hawaii (points wise). Having said, how about if you own a 2 BRLO OFD and you have 176,700 SOs to reserve at the resort.  You make a studio resie after 8 months (which is non OF) and rent it.  You are not only making an SO resie and renting it, but you are also using your points to rent a unit for less than the points your unit generates, you make a buck (profit), and keep some SOs in your pocket...wow... 

While other resorts may not be strong rentals my example could happen at ALL other resorts and you would still be renting for a profit (not a good one but still a profit).  You can own a 3 BR in WSJ in Plat+ season and rent a studio during 4th of July (mid season or low depending on the phase) an make a decent profit, you could own a 2BRLO at WRF during ski season and rent a studio during 4th of July week and again make a profit...So, in mind the opportunity for this to happen is very likely at may resort, perhaps all.  Any time someone can generate more $ than their MFs is a profit and opens the door for this to happen.


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## tschwa2 (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Hawaii and Harborside are the strongest rentals, and this could happen at Harborside, but not Hawaii, since Hawaii has no seasons.


No but Hawaii now has views so you could take 7 nights of non ocean front and reserve fewer nights of ocean front which might be a stronger rental.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

tschwa2 said:


> No but Hawaii now has views so you could take 7 nights of non ocean front and reserve fewer nights of ocean front which might be a stronger rental.


exactly my point...


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2017)

Short stays in Hawaii do not rent well - it's not a short stay destination.
WSJ is not as strong of a rental as you would think - it doesn't have the broad appeal that Hawaii and HRA have.
Ski weeks are not as strong as prime weeks in Hawaii and HRA.


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## skibummer (Sep 2, 2017)

Helios said:


> Markus said it well.  SOs from another resort (SVV in this case) cannot be used to reserve and rent in Hawaii.


 Reread the proposed question and Markus' reply (I did 3 time to make sure I read him correctly) he actually stated to dioxide45 since he owns a studio in Hawaii and uses SVV SO to reserve a 2 bdr in Hawaii he COULD rent out the studio but not the adjoining 1 bdr since he didn't own that as well. That seems like it shouldn't be allowed since he stated the SO originated from SVV. Not sure if you misread the question, but the answer that he CAN rent a Hawaii studio booked with SVV SO seems incorrect. All Home resort resi can be rented (all agree), resi booked at home resort via SO less than 8 months out (TUG members differ on interpretation), SO used from another resort can't be rented as it's against the rules (seems obvious). Is this the distillation of the thread?


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## okwiater (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> WSJ is not as strong of a rental as you would think - it doesn't have the broad appeal that Hawaii and HRA have.



Why do you conclude that WSJ is not a strong rental? Have you rented a unit there before?


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2017)

It's common knowledge that WSJ does not have the rental demand that Maui and HRA have - it's a specialty market:  It's hard to get there, driving is on the left side of the road, it's not touristy, it's a more foreign experience.  A lovely place of course, but doesn't have broad demand.


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## skibummer (Sep 2, 2017)

[


emuyshondt said:


> That would not be allowed. You could only rent the studio in Hawaii, booked with its corresponding Staroptions. You could not use Staroptions from anywhere else to reserve different sized units and then rent them out. You could not use Staroptions from anywhere else to reserve a second studio to rent out.
> 
> It really isn't complicated. You can only rent what you own at a specific location. Using Staroptions from other locations to rent out is not allowed.
> 
> ...



Very clear, and I agree with the above statements. Thanks.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Short stays in Hawaii do not rent well - it's not a short stay destination.
> WSJ is not as strong of a rental as you would think - it doesn't have the broad appeal that Hawaii and HRA have.
> Ski weeks are not as strong as prime weeks in Hawaii and HRA.


I wasn't talking about a short rental in HI, you could rent a non OF full week (using your OF SOs), make a profit, and keep SOs...

I own 3 units at WSJ and rent for about 2 x MF when I don't use them, that is good enough for me...

Ski weeks may not be as appealing, but you can still make a profit.

What is profit to you?  The google machine say: *a financial gain, especially the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something*

I get 3 x MF from my HRA weeks and I like it.  But my WSJ units which get MF x 2 are fine.  I even own at other resorts (which apparently are bad renters) and they generate more than the MFs.  I use my weeks when I want and have time.  If I can't use them I rent them (exactly what I own) and always come ahead regardless of their locations.


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2017)

I was responding to someone else:  





> No but Hawaii now has views so you could take 7 nights of non ocean front and reserve *fewer nights of ocean front* which might be a stronger rental.





> What is profit to you?


I don't think I used the word "profit" - I was writing about demand.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

skibummer said:


> All Home resort resi can be rented (all agree), resi booked at home resort via SO less than 8 months out (TUG members differ on interpretation), SO used from another resort can't be rented as it's against the rules (seems obvious). Is this the distillation of the thread?



All Home resort resi can be rented (all agree), *Definitely*

resi booked at home resort via SO less than 8 months out (TUG members differ on interpretation), *I think you can, as you noted, not everybody agrees*

SO used from another resort can't be rented as it's against the rules (seems obvious).  *Definitely*

Is this the distillation of the thread? *Yes, to me*


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## okwiater (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> It's common knowledge that WSJ does not have the rental demand that Maui and HRA have - it's a specialty market:  It's hard to get there, driving is on the left side of the road, it's not touristy, it's a more foreign experience.  A lovely place of course, but doesn't have broad demand.



So when you use the term "strong rental" you are referring solely to the level of demand as opposed to the profitability of the unit?


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> I was responding to someone else:
> 
> I don't think I used the word "profit" - I was writing about demand.


You are right, to be fair you didn't...

but my point was that you can make a profit from renting at other resorts that are not located in Hawaii or from HRA. 

I noted you can use your higher season and bigger size units to reserve lower season and smaller sizes (all at your resort) while making a profit.  You said that only could happen at HRA or HI but HI was out because the SOs were the same or something to that effect.  Did I miss something?  I believe all resorts can make a profit (some more than others, but all can).


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

okwiater said:


> So when you use the term "strong rental" you are referring solely to the level of demand as opposed to the profitability of the unit?


I guess that is what Denise implied.  But, why would you rent just to break even?  As a last measure if you cannot use it...not a sustainable scenario...you should sell in that case...


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2017)

Yes - demand indicates how popular a resort is with renters.  We were discussing which resorts would be good Staroption rentals, and I stated which ones have the most demand.  Demand indicates how easy or difficult it is to rent at a resort.

Not all resorts can be rented for a profit - there are some that are difficult to rent for enough to cover maintenance fees, or at all.  Resorts in over-built areas fall into this category - like Florida, Branson, Las Vegas.

As someone who owns/owned SVR and SDO, I know of what I speak.  (I also owned a Christmas week in Branson in the past.)  

We also own several OF units on Kauai, and have problems renting them for enough to cover the maintenance fee.  Kauai just isn't as popular as Maui.  But we bought them to use, not rent, so that's OK.

And we got all of them them for cheap or free.


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## okwiater (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Yes - demand indicates how popular a resort is with renters.  We were discussing which resorts would be good Staroption rentals, and I stated which ones have the most demand.  Demand indicates how easy or difficult it is to rent at a resort.



I don't mean to sound nitpicky, but demand only determines how easy or difficult it is to rent *in relation to supply*. The Westin Maui properties are much larger and have much more resort competition than Westin St. John, which means an owner must compete with many other owners attempting to rent similar units. There may be much more demand, but with many comparable units this will result in downward price pressure along the supply-demand curve. In St. John on the other hand, an owner could be offering quite literally the only unit of a certain type for a given week.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

I should consider myself lucky, my experience with FL units is that they rent for above MFs (consistently).


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

BTW - generalizing has gotten my in trouble, so I post based on my experience.  I am not saying all units rent above MF, just that it can be done.


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2017)

I understand exactly what you are saying, but based on my 15 years of expereince as a Starwood/Vistana owner, and 15 years of discussions on TUG, if I wanted to rent a Staroption reservations, I would not choose WSJ.  

When you consider all the factors - it doesn't offer the best odds.


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## okwiater (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> if I wanted to rent a Staroption reservations, I would not choose WSJ.



I wholeheartedly agree with that. But then... hopefully people here on TUG are buying where they want to go, right?


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> I understand exactly what you are saying, but based on my 15 years of expereince as a Starwood/Vistana owner, and 15 years of discussions on TUG, if I wanted to rent a Staroption reservations, I would not choose WSJ.
> 
> When you consider all the factors - it doesn't offer the best odds.


100% Agree with this.  That is the problem at HRA...


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2017)

> I wholeheartedly agree with that. But then... hopefully people here on TUG are buying where they want to go, right?



Yes - but this discussion is about _renting Staroption reservations_...


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

Helios said:


> Now, for some controversy...
> 
> What if you own unit type* X* in season *Y* at resort *Z* and reserve unit type* X (or another unit smaller than yours)* in season *A (or another season lower than yours)* at resort *Z* and make a reservation past 8 months and want to rent it......That's the potential loop hole.  You are Paying MFs to resort *Z *but you are not renting what you own.  I believe this should not be done...
> 
> wow, sometimes I crack myself up...


OK, now we are on the same page with the derailment...

*Who wants to answer simply yes or no to this* without going on a tangent...

I say NO


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Yes - but this discussion is about _renting Staroption reservations_...


I think that is a perfect a way to dove tail into my original point, see above...


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## okwiater (Sep 2, 2017)

Helios said:


> *Who wants to answer simply yes or no to this* without going on a tangent...
> 
> I say NO



People may still cling to an opinion that it's okay to rent something reserved with StarOptions that does not _exactly match_ the ownership from which they were obtained, but I think it's pretty clear-cut that it's not permitted. It must be the same resort, the same unit type, and the same season.


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## VacationForever (Sep 2, 2017)

I can tell you that if someone rents SO reservation to me and when I show up at the resort and my reservation has been cancelled due to that rental not being permitted, I am going to go after the one who rented the resort to me and sue for all costs incurred plus more - air fare, lost time and punitive $ for causing my family distress.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

okwiater said:


> People may still cling to an opinion that it's okay to rent something reserved with StarOptions that does not _exactly match_ the ownership from which they were obtained, but I think it's pretty clear-cut that it's not permitted. It must be the same resort, the same unit type, and the same season.


That is my position...even if this is done past 8 months = Reserving exactly what you own using your SOs which happens to be labeled a SO reservation...


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> I can tell you that if someone rents SO reservation to me and when I show up at the resort and my reservation has been cancelled due to that rental not being permitted, I am going to go after the one who rented the resort to me and sue for all costs incurred plus more - air fare, lost time and punitive $ for causing my family distress.


In this scenario, I would do the same...

This, however, implies you would rent a SO resie knowing this is a risk, right?  I am guessing you are not speaking for yourself, but on behalf of an upset owner who experiences this.

Agreed, someone who does not know the terminology of the reservations naming convention could find the hard way.  And the renter of the SO could also get a big headache...


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

Definitely more clarification from Vistana is needed.


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## VacationForever (Sep 2, 2017)

Helios said:


> In this scenario, I would do the same...
> 
> This, however, implies you would rent a SO resie knowing this is a risk, right?  I am guessing you are not speaking for yourself, but in behalf of an upset owner who experiences this.
> 
> Agreed, someone who does not know the terminology of the reservations naming convention could find the hard way.  And the renter of the SO could also get a big headache...


Yes.  I am not speaking for myself but [hypothetically] for someone else who is a victim of this.


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2017)

> Yes. I am not speaking for myself but someone else who is a victim of this.



VacationForever:  Please clarify - are you saying that you personally *know* someone who was TURNED AWAY AT CHECK-IN, at a Vistana resort, because they rented a Staroption reservation???

This would be very surprising because:

-Vistana already said that they would deal with this issue with the OWNER, and they would not punish guests.

-The front desk doesn't get involved in this.

-Long before this point, the owner would be notified that his reservation was cancelled.

-It's never been reported on TUG.


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## YYJMSP (Sep 2, 2017)

So, let's introduce another wrinkle to interpretations. 

What about if I grab a dozen units using SO's from all over the place (some from the resort in question, some not) and then invite all of my direct relatives and their extended families to come along?  There's some verbiage in the CCRs about not being allowed to "rent for commercial purposes" or something along those lines (i.e. you cannot use the bookings as part of something that is effectively a vacation rental business).

I feel fine with charging them for my costs, as 1) they are all coming with me not at some random time on their own, 2) they are all part of my vacation as I am there with them, and 3) I am not renting as a business venture to strangers they're basically all my relatives.  I believe this isn't quite the letter of the law, but within the intents of some vagueness in those rules, as this usage is an extension of my vacation plans.


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## VacationForever (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> VacationForever:  Please clarify - are you saying that you personally *know* someone who was TURNED AWAY AT CHECK-IN, at a Vistana resort, because they rented a Staroption reservation???
> 
> This would be very surprising because:
> 
> ...


It is hypothetical.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> VacationForever:  Please clarify - are you saying that you personally *know* someone who was TURNED AWAY AT CHECK-IN, at a Vistana resort, because they rented a Staroption reservation???
> 
> This would be very surprising because:
> 
> ...



I thought he said he would be upset if it happened to him, not that it had actually happened to him.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> It is hypothetical.


I should have read to the end of the thread.  Sorry.


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2017)

This was confusing to me: 





> Yes. I am not speaking for myself but *someone else who is a victim* of this.



Someone else who IS a victim, doesn't sound hypothetical.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

YYJMSP said:


> So, let's introduce another wrinkle to interpretations.
> 
> What about if I grab a dozen units using SO's from all over the place (some from the resort in question, some not) and then invite all of my direct relatives and their extended families to come along?  There's some verbiage in the CCRs about not being allowed to "rent for commercial purposes" or something along those lines (i.e. you cannot use the bookings as part of something that is effectively a vacation rental business).
> 
> I feel fine with charging them for my costs, as 1) they are all coming with me not at some random time on their own, 2) they are all part of my vacation as I am there with them, and 3) I am not renting as a business venture to strangers they're basically all my relatives.  I believe this isn't quite the letter of the law, but within the intents of some vagueness in those rules, as this usage is an extension of my vacation plans.


There you go, one more unclear scenario...I would think that is against the rules if you are making a profit (1 or more cents from MF) renting to friends or family.  But, how can Vistana prove you made said profit...


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

Someone in the HGVC forum used the term "renting to new friends".  How about those...


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

Out of curiosity, what would happen if someone reaches out to Vistana/Suzanne Clark and ask the question directly?

After all, we are just providing our thoughts which are not Vistana's position.


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2017)

> how can Vistana prove you made said profit



Remember - At this point, Vistana is in "don't ask - don't tell" mode.  Vistana has no contact with guests, and doesn't even have a way to contact them - they don't want to know. 

If YYJMSP calls them and says he's having a family reunion and needs 10 guest confirmations, they won't even blink.  Especially since he is an Elite Owner.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> Remember - At this point, Vistana is in "don't ask - don't tell" mode.  Vistana has no contact with guests, and doesn't even have a way to contact them - they don't want to know.
> 
> If YYJMSP calls them and says he's having a family reunion and needs 10 guest confirmations, they won't even blink.  Especially since he is an Elite Owner.


Agree, you said it well before when you mentioned Plausible Deniability.  

Couldn't the resort front desk ask?


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

I also thought they were going to get tougher now that they are owned by Interval.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

YYJMSP said:


> So, let's introduce another wrinkle to interpretations.
> 
> What about if I grab a dozen units using SO's from all over the place (some from the resort in question, some not) and then invite all of my direct relatives and their extended families to come along?  There's some verbiage in the CCRs about not being allowed to "rent for commercial purposes" or something along those lines (i.e. you cannot use the bookings as part of something that is effectively a vacation rental business).
> 
> I feel fine with charging them for my costs, as 1) they are all coming with me not at some random time on their own, 2) they are all part of my vacation as I am there with them, and 3) I am not renting as a business venture to strangers they're basically all my relatives.  I believe this isn't quite the letter of the law, but within the intents of some vagueness in those rules, as this usage is an extension of my vacation plans.


If you change a SO reservation name, do they give you any reminders about not renting?  I get them even if I have a reservation with the exact same dates for me. I get just a reminder, not a question about me renting the unit.  I also get the same reminders when I rent a Home Resort Resie.


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2017)

When they made all the changes, we wondered what was going to happen, but so far, Vistana has actually_ distanced themselves_ from the guests of owners/guest confirmations.

-They won't talk to guests anymore.
-They won't accept guest's contact info.
-They have no way to contact guests.


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2017)

> Couldn't the resort front desk ask?



This would be an enormous PR disaster.  Can you imagine the drama that would ensue?

If you turned people away at the front desk, this would create enormous bad will and negative publicity towards the resort, and Vistana already said they weren't going to punish guests.

If they wanted to know, they could find out much earlier - but since they intentionally changed their policies so they no longer have any contact with guests, they apparently don't want to know.


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## bizaro86 (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> This would be an enormous PR disaster.  Can you imagine the drama that would ensue?
> 
> If you turned people away at the front desk, this would create enormous bad will and negative publicity towards the resort, and Vistana already said they weren't going to punish guests.
> 
> If they wanted to know, they could find out much earlier - but since they intentionally changed their policies so they no longer have any contact with guests, they apparently don't want to know.



Don't ask don't tell, but we will collect a fee for our troubles...


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## tschwa2 (Sep 2, 2017)

I think they stopped taking guest information and allowing guests to confirm to make it harder to rent- not to distance themselves.  As far as I know this is the only company that will not confirm a reservation for a guest.  Yes I can do a conference call with a guest but I would really rather not. It is annoying enough that I have to call to put a reservation in a guest name to begin with.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> This would be an enormous PR disaster.  Can you imagine the drama that would ensue?
> 
> If you turned people away at the front desk, this would create enormous bad will and negative publicity towards the resort, and Vistana already said they weren't going to punish guests.
> 
> If they wanted to know, they could find out much earlier - but since they intentionally changed their policies so they no longer have any contact with guests, they apparently don't want to know.


So, this goes beyond plausible deniability...this boils down to you can break the rules if you want, we simply don't care...


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2017)

I don't know - I'm just guessing, like everyone else.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

bizaro86 said:


> Don't ask don't tell, but we will collect a fee for our troubles...


Everybody wins this way...you go ahead and rent illegally and we get a piece of the action (but let's call it a fee if you are not 4* or 5*, if you are 4* or 5* you are fine)...it is all cool......


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## tschwa2 (Sep 2, 2017)

Helios said:


> So, this goes beyond plausible deniability...this boils down to you can break the rules if you want, we simply don't care...


I am sure the owners who are renting SO reservations believe that and would like to have everyone believe that.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

tschwa2 said:


> I think they stopped taking guest information and allowing guests to confirm to make it harder to rent- not to distance themselves.  As far as I know this is the only company that will not confirm a reservation for a guest.  Yes I can do a conference call with a guest but I would really rather not. It is annoying enough that I have to call to put a reservation in a guest name to begin with.


Making it harder?


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

DeniseM said:


> I don't know - I'm just guessing, like everyone else.


Of course, I am just putting things into perspective with my spin of sarcasam.


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## tschwa2 (Sep 2, 2017)

Helios said:


> Making it harder?


Yes because now when I rent my home resort reservation, my guest can't confirm directly with the resort or with Vistana.  I own a few SBP platinum and gold plus summer weeks and 2 Harborside weeks.  I like to be able to make a reservation, forward a confirmation and have the renter call directly to confirm.  They can't do this now.  I have to make a conference call unless the guest is content to pay with only a confirmation in hand.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

tschwa2 said:


> I am sure the owners who are renting SO reservations believe that and would like to have everyone believe that.


But, if everybody believes that then the system crashes...let's hope not...all the owners from low MFs properties will rent the attractive inventory that makes it to the 8 month mark.


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

tschwa2 said:


> Yes because now when I rent my home resort reservation, my guest can't confirm directly with the resort or with Vistana.  I own a few SBP platinum and gold plus summer weeks and 2 Harborside weeks.  I like to be able to make a reservation, forward a confirmation and have the renter call directly to confirm.  They can't do this now.  I have to make a conference call unless the guest is content to pay with only a confirmation in hand.


Got it.  I haven't been asked for a conference call to confirm.


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## Markus (Sep 2, 2017)

skibummer said:


> Reread the proposed question and Markus' reply (I did 3 time to make sure I read him correctly) he actually stated to dioxide45 since he owns a studio in Hawaii and uses SVV SO to reserve a 2 bdr in Hawaii he COULD rent out the studio but not the adjoining 1 bdr since he didn't own that as well. That seems like it shouldn't be allowed since he stated the SO originated from SVV. Not sure if you misread the question, but the answer that he CAN rent a Hawaii studio booked with SVV SO seems incorrect. All Home resort resi can be rented (all agree), resi booked at home resort via SO less than 8 months out (TUG members differ on interpretation), SO used from another resort can't be rented as it's against the rules (seems obvious). Is this the distillation of the thread?


Misread the original post. I thought the Studio was reserved with options from the home resort. Upon review, this was not the case, and so would be against the rules. Apologies for the confusion.

Markus


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## Helios (Sep 2, 2017)

Markus said:


> Misread the original post. I thought the Studio was reserved with options from the home resort. Upon review, this was not the case, and so would be against the rules. Apologies for the confusion.
> 
> Markus


Same here.


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## YYJMSP (Sep 3, 2017)

Helios said:


> But, if everybody believes that then the system crashes...let's hope not...all the owners from low MFs properties will rent the attractive inventory that makes it to the 8 month mark.



So, let me ask the obvious (at least to me) question now:

Realistically, how many owners at the "low MF" properties actually have enough units with SO's to add up to make this a problem at the "high MF" properties (which need more SO's to book)? 

Are we blowing this out of proportion?

Are we afraid that there are all these nefarious SVR owners who have 2 units each with SO's that they add up and then can book 1 unit at WKORV at 8mos out to compete with all of the WKORV owners at 8mos out?  Didn't those owners at WKORV get 4 months head-start to book units??? 

I'm feeling this is a little bit of "you snooze you lose" for those WKORV owners who didn't book in the first 4 months. 

The secret to successful timesharing is planning far far in advance.  The longer you wait, the less likely it is going to work for you.

Personally, I sometimes find it hard to book at the popular resorts that I don't own at with SO's at exactly 8mos out.  So I try again the next day.  And then the next day.  Repeat as needed.  Eventually I get a unit.  I book my flights, and life goes on...


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## canesfan (Sep 3, 2017)

Personally I sometimes find it hard to book at the high demand resorts I own between 11-9 months! Good luck at after 8 months. 

But I still believe you should not be combining SOs and  renting a more high demand resort with them. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Helios (Sep 3, 2017)

Realistically, how many owners at the "low MF" properties actually have enough units with SO's to add up to make this a problem at the "high MF" properties (which need more SO's to book)? *I think there are owners who would want to get in the action, but, you bring a good point...how many of those have SOs and more importantly how many don't fear getting caught.  In addition to SVR, I would add all FL resort and SBP in this low MF category.  Perhaps all Sheratons (but I am don't know the MFs at other Sheratons).  To some extent some of the Westins with low MF like Westin Kierland where you get a decent amount of SOs for relatively low MFs.  So, I think that if you add all those SOs and owners know there are no penalties for renting your SOs you could be asking for trouble.*

Are we blowing this out of proportion? *I think so, using the term crash was a bit extreme.  But it helped stir the pot.  After all, I am just coming up with thought provoking posts to keep the thread going.*

Are we afraid that there are all these nefarious SVR owners who have 2 units each with SO's that they add up and then can book 1 unit at WKORV at 8mos out to compete with all of the WKORV owners at 8mos out?  Didn't those owners at WKORV get 4 months head-start to book units???

I'm feeling this is a little bit of "you snooze you lose" for those WKORV owners who didn't book in the first 4 months.  *I think it is you snooze you loose.  But, how about owners who can't plan ahead because family scheduling conflicts. *

The secret to successful timesharing is planning far far in advance.  The longer you wait, the less likely it is going to work for you.  *100% with you on this one.  *

Personally, I sometimes find it hard to book at the popular resorts that I don't own at with SO's at exactly 8mos out.  So I try again the next day.  And then the next day.  Repeat as needed.  Eventually I get a unit.  I book my flights, and life goes on...  *I'll PM you on this...*


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## PamMo (Sep 3, 2017)

YYJMSP said:


> ...Realistically, how many owners at the "low MF" properties actually have enough units with SO's to add up to make this a problem at the "high MF" properties (which need more SO's to book)?
> 
> Are we blowing this out of proportion?
> 
> Are we afraid that there are all these nefarious SVR owners who have 2 units each with SO's that they add up and then can book 1 unit at WKORV at 8mos out to compete with all of the WKORV owners at 8mos out?  Didn't those owners at WKORV get 4 months head-start to book units???...



My guess is that most owners at expensive, high demand Vistana resorts don't think it's been blown out of proportion. We can make reservations early, but if we choose to rent our weeks, we compete with non-owners using less expensive VOI's to book weeks - against network policy. They can (and do) underprice our rentals, diminishing the value of owning there. First, we pay a premium to buy at our home resort, then we pay a premium in maintenance fees. When the policy has always stated that only Home Resort reservations may be rented, it's aggravating to read these threads over and over again, with people saying it's OK to rent SO exchanges (don't ask/don't tell, VSE won't enforce the rules, etc...). Renting SO exchanges has a negative impact on owners and network members who want to vacation at the high demand resorts.


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## Helios (Sep 3, 2017)

Also, to a small extent this could apply to the other way around.  Say you own a WSJ Plat+ Pool villa with MF and taxes at around $3k all in which generates 257,700 SOs.  You then proceed to reserve a HRA 3 BR week 52 and you rent it for say $9,000 (I've seen those listings).  That to me is serious profit at a high demand resort.

Is this likely to happen, no...could it happen, definitely (not at 8 months, but keep checking and you may be surprised).  

Like YYJMSP said, this is just blowing it out of proportions.  I am just staring the pot at this point.


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## Helios (Sep 3, 2017)

PamMo said:


> My guess is that most owners at expensive, high demand Vistana resorts don't think it's been blown out of proportion.



I think it only takes one person at the WKORV pool saying they do to this all time to WKORV owners to get them really upset when they have issues reserving past 8 months...

I believe @DavidnRobin has seen this happen.


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## VacationForever (Sep 3, 2017)

Helios said:


> Realistically, how many owners at the "low MF" properties actually have enough units with SO's to add up to make this a problem at the "high MF" properties (which need more SO's to book)? *I think there are owners who would want to get in the action, but, you bring a good point...how many of those have SOs and more importantly how many don't fear getting caught.  In addition to SVR, I would add all FL resort and SBP in this low MF category.  Perhaps all Sheratons (but I am don't know the MFs at other Sheratons).  To some extent some of the Westins with low MF like Westin Kierland where you get a decent amount of SOs for relatively low MFs.  So, I think that if you add all those SOs and owners know there are no penalties for renting your SOs you could be asking for trouble.*
> 
> Are we blowing this out of proportion? *I think so, using the term crash was a bit extreme.  But it helped stir the pot.  After all, I am just coming up with thought provoking posts to keep the thread going.*
> 
> ...


I recall a TUGger who owned 4 weeks of SVV and was regularly renting out high value weeks elsewhere before these discussions started about it being prohibited a couple of years ago.  Though this is just peanuts, technically one can turn it into a cottage industry.  Yes, there are people who bought lower cost and lower MF mandatory weeks with sole intention of making money through rental of Harbourside and Maui resorts.


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## Helios (Sep 3, 2017)

VacationForever said:


> I recall a TUGger who owned 3 weeks of SVV and was regularly renting out high value weeks elsewhere before these discussions started about it being prohibited a couple of years ago.  Though this is just peanuts, technically one can turn it into a cottage industry.  Yes, there are people who bought lower cost and lower MF mandatory weeks with sole intention of making money through rental of Harbourside and Maui resorts.


Sales people in Orlando pitched this to me in 2012 and 2013.  I pointed out this was against the rules, and they said that Starwood loves new meet regardless and they would not stop it...also, they would not question an Elite owner...


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## Helios (Sep 3, 2017)

Helios said:


> Sales people in Orlando pitched this to me in 2012 and 2013.  I pointed out this was against the rules, and they said that Starwood loves new meet regardless and they would not stop it...also, they would not question an Elite owner...


This of course was a sales tactic, whatever it takes to make a sale.


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## canesfan (Sep 4, 2017)

If we listened to what the salesperson told us, we'd be in a lot of trouble. Just saying.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 1320401 (Jan 1, 2019)

Bumping an old thread:

We have an every other year (even) 2 bedroom at Kaanapali Villas. We used the 1 bedroom in 2018 and banked the remainder for studio use in 2019. We are struggling to find time to use the studio in 2019. Can we rent the studio in 2019? It is a StarOptions booking of course but is at our home resort (though not in our use year).

Thanks!


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## controller1 (Jan 1, 2019)

1320401 said:


> Bumping an old thread:
> 
> We have an every other year (even) 2 bedroom at Kaanapali Villas. We used the 1 bedroom in 2018 and banked the remainder for studio use in 2019. We are struggling to find time to use the studio in 2019. Can we rent the studio in 2019? It is a StarOptions booking of course but is at our home resort (though not in our use year).
> 
> Thanks!



The VSN rules prohibit renting StarOption reservations. One may only rent out a home resort period or home option reservation.


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## 1320401 (Jan 1, 2019)

controller1 said:


> The VSN rules prohibit renting StarOption reservations. One may only rent out a home resort or home option reservation.


That was my thought as well but this thread made it seem like SO reservations at your home resort were allowed (or at least tolerated). Perhaps it's old information.


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## Ken555 (Jan 1, 2019)

1320401 said:


> Bumping an old thread:
> 
> We have an every other year (even) 2 bedroom at Kaanapali Villas. We used the 1 bedroom in 2018 and banked the remainder for studio use in 2019. We are struggling to find time to use the studio in 2019. Can we rent the studio in 2019? It is a StarOptions booking of course but is at our home resort (though not in our use year).
> 
> Thanks!



I thought banked options were valid for two years. Perhaps use them in 2020?


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 1, 2019)

1320401 said:


> That was my thought as well but this thread made it seem like SO reservations at your home resort were allowed (or at least tolerated). Perhaps it's old information.



Text directly from Reservation Confirmation:

Rental of units reserved using StarOptions (other than a vacation period at your Home Resort) is prohibited. Violation may result in the suspension of an Owner’s right to reserve within the Vistana Signature Network (VSN) until compliant.



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## Sicnarf (Jan 3, 2019)

I don't rent.. I just "exchange" with family and friends


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 4, 2019)

Sicnarf said:


> I don't rent.. I just "exchange" with family and friends



I willingly take full blame for the Renting of SOs text in the reservation confirmation.  I suggested this to SVN (VSN) management years ago to remove confusion about this topic which was raised many years ago on TUG (2013-14? by @Glorian iirc).
This was actually one of the outcomes of a telephone interview I had with management with Owner Services that came after emails with S. Clarke (SVP) about various topics.

If one wants to circumvent the SO Rental rules - that is on them.


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## byeloe (Jan 4, 2019)

DavidnRobin said:


> Text directly from Reservation Confirmation:
> 
> Rental of units reserved using StarOptions (other than a vacation period at your Home Resort) is prohibited. Violation may result in the suspension of an Owner’s right to reserve within the Vistana Signature Network (VSN) until compliant.
> 
> ...


Still doesn't seem clear to me.  If I use star options from my home resort to make a reservation at my home resort at 8 months, can I rent it out?

The way I read it, I would say yes I can rent it out


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## PcflEZFlng (Jan 4, 2019)

That's how I read it. As long as you're using SOs from your home resort, it doesn't matter how far out you booked it. Further, I also interpret it to mean that if even you bank StarOptions from your home resort, you can rent out a reservation using those banked SOs as long as the reservation is at that same resort.

So for example if I bank 50K SOs from WMH, I can make a reservation at WMH the following year using those same 50K SOs and rent it out.


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## Ken555 (Jan 4, 2019)

PcflEZFlng said:


> That's how I read it. As long as you're using SOs from your home resort, it doesn't matter how far out you booked it. Further, I also interpret it to mean that if even you bank StarOptions from your home resort, you can rent out a reservation using those banked SOs as long as the reservation is at that same resort.
> 
> So for example if I bank 50K SOs from WMH, I can make a reservation at WMH the following year using those same 50K SOs and rent it out.



What part of 



> Rental of units reserved using StarOptions (other than a vacation period at your Home Resort) is prohibited.



is confusing?

Banked StarOptions are...StarOptions, and not a home resort reservation use of your deeded week rights.


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 4, 2019)

SO Reservations are the ones made less than 8 months.  Those are not HR (Home Resort) reservations even if made at HR.  Those are SO reservations.
HR VOIs (TS weeks) are assigned those SOs for VSN reservations at 8 months. Otherwise they are HR reservations (8-12 months).

For example - I use my WKORV OF studio (assigned 81K SO) to reserve a week in a 1 Bd at WKORV (OV, IV) at 8 months - then decide to rent the 1Bd.
Not allowed... 
it has become a SO Reservation - not a HR reservation. 


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## byeloe (Jan 4, 2019)

Ken555 said:


> What part of
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It would be crystal clear if the words in brackets were removed.

It is open to interpretation as it is currently worded


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## Ken555 (Jan 4, 2019)

byeloe said:


> It would be crystal clear if the words in brackets were removed.
> 
> It is open to interpretation as it is currently worded



I agree it can be better defined. But a StarOption reservation is inherently not a home resort reservation. So even with some confusion as to sentence structure, there’s no way this can be interpreted to mean a reservation may be rented using banked SOs or any SOs at all. 


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 4, 2019)

^^^^ this ^^^^


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## Henry M. (Jan 4, 2019)

DavidnRobin said:


> Rental of units reserved using StarOptions
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To me this says Rentals using StarOptions are prohibited, except when they are at the home resort (they don’t say anything about the home resort period). They are talking about SO reservations. They are prohibited, except when ...

Home resort is the place where you own. There is also a Home Resort Period, but that is not what they mention in the confirmation.

I interpret the sentence to mean an SO reservation is allowed at the home resort where the SO’s came from. At minimum, this is open to interpretation. I come to a different conclusion than DavidnRobin.


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## byeloe (Jan 4, 2019)

I Agree with emuyshondt


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## PcflEZFlng (Jan 4, 2019)

As do I.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 4, 2019)

emuyshondt said:


> To me this says Rentals using StarOptions are prohibited, except when they are at the home resort (they don’t say anything about the home resort period). They are talking about SO reservations. They are prohibited, except when ...
> 
> Home resort is the place where you own. There is also a Home Resort Period, but that is not what they mention in the confirmation.
> 
> I interpret the sentence to mean an SO reservation is allowed at the home resort. At minimum, this is open to interpretation. I come to a different conclusion than DavidnRobin.


It should also be noted, that a "vacation period" doesn't have to be seven nights.


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## PcflEZFlng (Jan 4, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> It should also be noted, that a "vacation period" doesn't have to be seven nights.


Absolutely correct.


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 5, 2019)

emuyshondt said:


> To me this says Rentals using StarOptions are prohibited, except when they are at the home resort (they don’t say anything about the home resort period). They are talking about SO reservations. They are prohibited, except when ...
> 
> Home resort is the place where you own. There is also a Home Resort Period, but that is not what they mention in the confirmation.
> 
> I interpret the sentence to mean an SO reservation is allowed at the home resort where the SO’s came from. At minimum, this is open to interpretation. I come to a different conclusion than DavidnRobin.



It may be a different conclusion, but that does not make it correct.
I agree the wording is poor. However, HR reservations as defined by VSE/VSN are not SO reservations (and visa versus) - they are 2 different types of reservations no matter how it is spun.

Once you make a reservation at <8 months (for typical VSE resorts) - it is no longer a HR reservation. It is a SO reservation even if at same resort.

In my example scenario of converting my WKORV OF studio to a WKORV 1 Bd (that can only be done at the 8 month point) - this is SO Reservation even though it is at my Home Resort.
Therefore, against rules to rent.

The definition of a HR reservation is being confused here - a HR reservation is a made at 8-12 months that reserves your deeded VOI type (View/Unit type) - this is lost at 8 months and becomes a SO Reservation as you lose your HR privilege of reserving your deeded usage (View/Unit type).

Interpret however it meets your bias - but that doesn’t change the fact.
Ask VSE/VSN - and this is what they will tell you.

HR reservations are at 8-12 months out - at 8 months they are SO reservations EVEN IF made at the resort that is owned (thus the loss of HR privilege of location and view).

btw - I have no skin in this game.  I use or rent my HR reservations. I merely discussed with SVN about adding text to the reservation confirmations (which they eventually did a couple of years later).

Want clarification?  Ask VSN management as I have.  I would gladly make a wager on their response.



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## Henry M. (Jan 5, 2019)

I'm not disputing what you say. Reservations less than 8 months out are SOs reservations. The text clearly says you can't rent reservations using SO *EXCEPT* when they are at your home resort. So they are singling out a set of SO reservations that can be rented out. If they meant ALL SO reservations, they wouldn't mention any exceptions. The word EXCEPT modifies the sentence significantly. Home Resort Period reservations are not SO reservations and don't need mentioning.

This doesn't affect me either. I always make my reservations 12 months out.


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## byeloe (Jan 5, 2019)

emuyshondt said:


> I'm not disputing what you say. Reservations less than 8 months out are SOs reservations. The text clearly says you can't rent reservations using SO *EXCEPT* when they are at your home resort. So they are singling out a set of SO reservations that can be rented out. If they meant ALL SO reservations, they wouldn't mention any exceptions. The word EXCEPT modifies the sentence significantly. Home Resort Period reservations are not SO reservations and don't need mentioning.
> 
> This doesn't affect me either. I always make my reservations 12 months out.[/QUO
> 
> That is exactly how I interpret it as well.  If they meant all SO reservations, they would/should just say it.


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## Ken555 (Jan 5, 2019)

So... who will be calling to request they fix and/or clarify this questionable sentence? 

It doesn’t affect me, either, since I’ve never rented and have zero intention of renting my weeks. But, I have rented from others in the past at other resorts so should an opportunity arise to rent at a VSN property I would want to be assured that the rental was not going to experience issues... 


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## DeniseM (Jan 5, 2019)

This is how Vistana implements this rule:

1.  If you make a *Staroption* reservation at your _home resort_, and call to put the reservation in a guest's name.  The phone Rep. will review your account and state that it's OK for you to rent the reservation, because it's at your home resort. Or they will say nothing about it at all, because they see that you are an owner at the resort, and they don't even bring it up.

2.  If you make a *Staroption* reservation at a resort that is _*not* your home resort_, and call to put the reservation in a guest's name, the phone Rep. will usually review your account, state that you don't own a timeshare at the resort, and read a prepared statement that says it's against the rules to rent a timeshare at a resort that you do not own.  Then they will ask you if you still want to proceed with the guest confirmation. 

This is easy to verify - try it yourself on your own account.  There is no penalty for cancelling a reservation as long as it's more than 61 days out from check-in, and you can even do it online.


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## Henry M. (Jan 6, 2019)

Basically, you can rent what you own, regardless whether the reservation is made 12-8 months out or whether you use StarOptions that you have from that resort. You are not supposed to use SO’s from one property to rent out a unit in a different location.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 6, 2019)

DeniseM said:


> This is how Vistana implements this rule:
> 
> 1.  If you make a *Staroption* reservation at your _home resort_, and call to put the reservation in a guest's name.  The phone Rep. will review your account and state that it's OK for you to rent the reservation, because it's at your home resort. Or they will say nothing about it at all, because they see that you are an owner at the resort, and they don't even bring it up.
> 
> ...


So this seems to support the "except when" side of the argument made by @emuyshondt .


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## Ken555 (Jan 6, 2019)

What’s strange about this interpretation is that since you only own a particular unit in a particular season, why would it be acceptable to rent a unit, even at the same resort, in a different season? You don’t own that time, and it’s a club (ie. StarOption) exchange/reservation. It could just as well be at another resort, and when I read the club rules years ago I had the impression this was made clear. Similarly, banked SOs used for a future year rental are considered a Club reservation in any season, and is specifically not a home resort period reservation by definition, so even that would be questionable (though much more understandable). 

This is the fundamental distinction between the two perspectives in this thread, and regardless of what the VSN phone reps say, and what you can get away with, I would have difficulty relying upon this position if I was renting my unit or renting a unit myself, just as I wouldn’t want to rent a unit exchanged via II.

Ultimately, as with many things VSN, there is no clarity. 


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## CalGalTraveler (Jan 6, 2019)

FWIW HGVC changed their policy to allow owners to reserve "Home Week" reservations up until check-in. There is no priority beyond the 9 month home week preference period, however a policy like this would go a long way to resolve this confusion.

I am not against a legitimate owner using their ownership beyond the home period to book and rent out what they own. If they are late and there is availability that should not be my concern.

My concern is for people who own at a resort and use SO's to rent out MORE than what they own such as using IV ownership to book and rent out OF/OV, or a larger unit, or add SOs from other resorts to book and rent out, or a different season (unless a downgrade).

This is abuse of an honor system and is not fair to other owners because it takes up capacity that should be available to legit owners and SO exchangers in order to run their business. This is akin to chair hogging.


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## PcflEZFlng (Jan 6, 2019)

The discussion of seasons and weeks in general is confusing.

I own two Vistana contracts, and although both are noted to be in a certain 'season', they both come with StarOptions. I don't own any fixed weeks. I MUST use those SOs to book ANY reservation, no matter when or where I book it (12 months out at the home resort, 8 months out, 3 months out), it doesn't matter.

That reservation can be for any time of the year, and for any number of nights, even for the 12-month home resort reservation. The ONLY limiting factor is the number of SOs available for me to use (and, of course, availability). And yes, I can bank those points and reserve for whenever and whatever is available, for any time of the year. Therefore, as a points owner, 'weeks' and 'seasons' mean nothing to me.

I've never rented out any reservation, nor plan to, so I don't have a horse in this race. I'm not taking a position for or against, but based on the way the text is written, and what Denise reported, a points owner can use SOs make a home resort reservation and rent it out, regardless of when it was made, for what time of year it was made, and whether those points were banked, borrowed, or used in the year obtained. Pure and simple.


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## Ken555 (Jan 6, 2019)

PcflEZFlng said:


> The discussion of seasons and weeks in general in confusing to me. I own two Vistana contracts, and although both are noted to be in a certain 'season', they both come with StarOptions. I don't own any fixed weeks. I MUST use those SOs to book a reservation, no matter when or where I book it (12 months out at the home resort, 8 months out, 3 months out), it doesn't matter. That reservation can be for ANY time of the year, even for the 12-month home resort reservation. The ONLY limiting factor is And yes, I can bank those points and reserve for whenever and whatever is available.



Actually, that's not the case. Even though your weeks include StarOptions, when you use the week to reserve 12-8 months in advance at your home resort you are not using StarOptions for the reservation. By doing so you also are guaranteed your deeded season and view, if applicable. The reservation process is very similar to a 8-0 months reservation, but not exactly the same.


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## Ken555 (Jan 6, 2019)

CalGalTraveler said:


> My concern is for people who own at a resort and use SO's to rent out MORE than what they own such as using IV ownership to book and rent out OF/OV, or a larger unit, or add SOs from other resorts to book and rent out, or a different season (unless a downgrade).
> 
> This is abuse of an honor system and is not fair to other owners because it takes up capacity that should be available to legit owners and SO exchangers in order to run their business. This is akin to chair hogging.



Yes, exactly. Based on earlier comments, I would be within my rights to use my WKV SOs to reserve multiple weeks in a lower season and rent them all. I could easily reserve 5 weeks (actually, 5 weeks and 5 days) in a 1-Bed in the summer using my single week ownership (I would never do this, and would not be able to rent it, but still...). That just doesn't make any sense at all.


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## PcflEZFlng (Jan 6, 2019)

Ken555 said:


> Actually, that's not the case. Even though your weeks include StarOptions, when you use the week to reserve 12-8 months in advance at your home resort you are not using StarOptions for the reservation. By doing so you also are guaranteed your deeded season and view, if applicable. The reservation process is very similar to a 8-0 months reservation, but not exactly the same.


No. Perhaps you have a different type of contract. BTW, I was still editing my post when you quoted it (it had accidentally saved while I was in the middle of it). I am absolutely using SOs in the case you described. The explanation is in my fully saved post.


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## Ken555 (Jan 6, 2019)

PcflEZFlng said:


> No. Perhaps you have a different type of contract. BTW, I was still editing my post when you quoted it (it had accidentally saved while I was in the middle of it). I am absolutely using SOs in the case you described. The explanation is in my fully saved post.



Do you own a Flex week? That is a good point, and means there is yet another layer to the rental issue for those owners.

ETA: aren’t Flex week options “HomeOptions” and not “StarOptions”? Or, err...what are they called?


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## PcflEZFlng (Jan 6, 2019)

I have 'float' (or 'floating week') contracts, good for any time of the year. Flex seems to be something that Vistana (now Marriott) has recently been trying to get owners to buy. I don't know anything about it (or care) because we stopped going to owner 'updates' a couple of years ago. But I don't have anything other than StarOptions to use. It is THE vehicle for which I can make reservations (except cash or MP of course).


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## Ken555 (Jan 6, 2019)

PcflEZFlng said:


> I have 'float' (or 'floating week') contracts, good for any time of the year. Flex seems to be something that Vistana (now Marriott) has recently been trying to get owners to buy. I don't know anything about it (or care) because we stopped going to owner 'updates' a couple of years ago. But I don't have anything other than StarOptions to use. It is THE vehicle for which I can make reservations (except cash or MP of course).



To the best of my knowledge (and I’m not current on this) the only ownership options are:

1. Deeded week, which may or may not include StarOptions.

2. Flex, sold under various names I think (Westin, Sheraton...), and has various resorts as “home” but the ownership is a trust (I believe) that owns multiple weeks at the “home” resorts. This includes Home Options for the home resort period (tho I’m not certain about the name) and StarOptions for other periods.

Are you able to reserve ANY VSN resort from 12-8 months from checkin? Or only certain VSN resorts?

If you don’t have a deed, and you’re sure you don’t have flex, then I’m very curious what you do own. Do you own at a particular resort, or just StarOptions?

Anyone else? Are there other ownership options?


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## PcflEZFlng (Jan 6, 2019)

I own a deeded week at a specific resort for each contract (at two separate resorts). For each contract, I can make a res at 12-8 months ONLY for the home resort specified in the contract. To make a res at any other resort, I must wait until the 8-mo window. The 'deeded week' imposes no restriction on the terms of use.


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## Ken555 (Jan 6, 2019)

PcflEZFlng said:


> I own a deeded week at a specific resort for each contract (at two separate resorts). For each contract, I can make a res at 12-8 months ONLY for the home resort specified in the contract. To make a res at any other resort, I must wait until the 8-mo window. The 'deeded week' imposes no restriction on the terms of use.



You have a regular week, just like mine. You may think you’re using StarOptions for the 12-8 month reservation, but you’re not.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by the last sentence. Do you not have a season for use?


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## controller1 (Jan 6, 2019)

I have highlighted what is confusing. I've owned weeks at multiple Vistana resorts and when making a Home Resort Reservation within the 8-12 month timeframe, the rules state that only a week may be reserved and the check-in days are Friday/Saturday/Sunday.

What resorts do you own?



PcflEZFlng said:


> I own two Vistana contracts, and although both are noted to be in a certain 'season', they both come with StarOptions. I don't own any fixed weeks. I MUST use those SOs to book ANY reservation, no matter when or where I book it (12 months out at the home resort, 8 months out, 3 months out), it doesn't matter.
> 
> *That reservation can be* for any time of the year, and *for any number of nights, even for the 12-month home resort reservation.* The ONLY limiting factor is the number of SOs available for me to use (and, of course, availability). And yes, I can bank those points and reserve for whenever and whatever is available, for any time of the year. Therefore, as a points owner, 'weeks' and 'seasons' mean nothing to me.


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## PcflEZFlng (Jan 6, 2019)

When I book a 12-8 month reservation (at my home resort only, of course), I have to use StarOptions and my SO balance goes down. By terms of use, I mean that even though my contract says I own "week x" and "season ()" it is for identification purposes only and has no bearing on when I can enjoy my stay. Again, my Vacation Ownership Interest (VOI) is a points contract, not a week contract.

The only thing that impacts my stay is how many StarOptions I have available to use. The cost of a villa stay in StarOptions DOES vary by season, as you know from the SO charts, so that a 7-night villa stay in prime season costs a lot more SOs than it does in low season. So, only in that regard does the season affect when and for long I stay.

Just saw the post about requiring a week's stay starting F/S/S during the 12-8 window. Since I typically reserve my stays by the week (by choice), I may be overlooking the rule stating that an 8-12 mo. reservation can only be done for a week. I'll need to go back and look for that.


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## Ken555 (Jan 6, 2019)

PcflEZFlng said:


> When I book a 12-8 month reservation (at my home resort only, of course), I have to use StarOptions and my SO balance goes down. By terms of use, I mean that even though my contract says I own "week x" and "season ()" it is for identification purposes only and has no bearing on when I can enjoy my stay. Again, my Vacation Ownership Interest (VOI) is a points contract, not a week contract.
> 
> The only thing that impacts my stay is how many StarOptions I have available to use. The cost of a villa stay in StarOptions DOES vary by season, as you know from the SO charts, so that a 7-night villa stay in prime season costs a lot more SOs than it does in low season. So, only in that regard does the season affect when and for long I stay.
> 
> Just saw the post about requiring a week's stay starting F/S/S during the 12-8 window. Since I typically reserve my stays by the week (by choice), I may be overlooking the rule stating that an 8-12 mo. reservation can only be done for a week. I'll need to go back and look for that.



I suspect if you try reserving at a resort other than your home resort from 12-8 months, you’ll find that you can’t.

Of course your StarOption balance will be reduced with a home resort reservation, because you would not have those SOs available for the exchange period starting at eight months from checkin. The fact your SO balance is reduced with a home resort reservation does NOT mean you are using SOs for the home resort reservation.


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## controller1 (Jan 6, 2019)

PcflEZFlng said:


> When I book a 12-8 month reservation (at my home resort only, of course), I have to use StarOptions and my SO balance goes down. By terms of use, I mean that even though my contract says I own "week x" and "season ()" it is for identification purposes only and has no bearing on when I can enjoy my stay. Again, my Vacation Ownership Interest (VOI) is a points contract, not a week contract.



IIRC only Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex, Westin Aventuras and Westin Nanea VOIs are points contracts.  All other Vistana VOIs are week contracts even though there may be a number of StarOptions associated with the week and that may vary based on size, view and/or season.


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## dioxide45 (Jan 6, 2019)

PcflEZFlng said:


> When I book a 12-8 month reservation (at my home resort only, of course), I have to use StarOptions and my SO balance goes down. By terms of use, I mean that even though my contract says I own "week x" and "season ()" it is for identification purposes only and has no bearing on when I can enjoy my stay. Again, my Vacation Ownership Interest (VOI) is a points contract, not a week contract.
> 
> The only thing that impacts my stay is how many StarOptions I have available to use. The cost of a villa stay in StarOptions DOES vary by season, as you know from the SO charts, so that a 7-night villa stay in prime season costs a lot more SOs than it does in low season. So, only in that regard does the season affect when and for long I stay.
> 
> Just saw the post about requiring a week's stay starting F/S/S during the 12-8 window. Since I typically reserve my stays by the week (by choice), I may be overlooking the rule stating that an 8-12 mo. reservation can only be done for a week. I'll need to go back and look for that.


But you can only make a reservation for a week/time outside of your season or for more or less than seven nights starting at eight months. We had someone in here a while back in another thread where we went round and round about how StarOptions are not the same as weeks from the 12-8 month mark. I am not sure I would be able to find that thread now though.

Yes, your StarOptions go down when you make a reservation inside of the 12-8 month booking window, but when you make reservations, the website will distinguish between the types. It will specify "Home Resort Usage" or will say "Required StarOptions" and indicate an amount. "Home Resort Usage" reservations will still deplete the number of StarOptions you have available, but if you own a deeded week the StarOption system is just an overlay to the weeks system.

If your ownership indicates week x and unit x, you indeed have weeks ownership and not a points contract. Both types are deeded BTW.


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## controller1 (Jan 6, 2019)

@dioxide45 you don't want to find that previous thread!  My head still hurts over that one...


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## PcflEZFlng (Jan 6, 2019)

Ken555 said:


> I suspect if you try reserving at a resort other than your home resort from 12-8 months, you’ll find that you can’t.


That I already know. That was never in question.

However, there may be other considerations with the 12-8 mo reservation (full week requirement, not using SOs) that I may have overlooked or forgotten with time. I've owned these contracts for about 12 years and have used them every year, but with the same pattern of use.



dioxide45 said:


> Yes, your StarOptions go down when you make a reservation inside of the 12-8 month booking window, but when you make reservations, the website will distinguish between the types. It will specify "Home Resort Usage" or will say "Required StarOptions" and indicate an amount. "Home Resort Usage" reservations will still deplete the number of StarOptions you have available, but if you own a deeded week the StarOption system is just an overlay to the weeks system.


Yes, this is what I think I'm beginning to realize. Thanks for the clarification.


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## Ken555 (Jan 7, 2019)

PcflEZFlng said:


> That I already know. That was never in question.



I think a little refresher would be good, so that we are all on the same page. 

Assuming you own a 2-bed lockoff unit, you may use the full 2-bed in a single week or two weeks (1-bed/studio or 1-bed/1-bed, depending on the resort). When you book 12-8 months in advance during your deeded season, your deeded view is guaranteed (this doesn’t matter at some resorts, like Kierland). When you book 12-8 months in advance, I believe you must book a week at a time. These reservations are only for your home, deeded, resort. When making these reservations you are using your deeded property, not StarOptions and yet, as explained earlier, your remaining StarOptions for the year will automatically be reduced based on the unreserved portion of your week (ie. if you have a 148,100 StarOpton week and you book a large 1-bed in prime season which would otherwise cost 81,000, you will have 67,100 left to use in the event you opt to exchange the smaller 1-bed/studio week for another resort in the network).

From 8-0 months in advance, you may use your week to go to any club property (the club is the internal exchange program). When booking 8-0 months in advance, your home week is automatically converted to StarOptions during the reservation process and that is how you are able to go to other resorts. 

To bring this full circle... your ability to rent a week is restricted to your home resort. Of that there is no question. The ability for you to rent a week outside your deeded season is the only question left in regards to the rental issue. Perhaps your opinion is now different than earlier, given that you earlier thought you could book anytime of year and have full rights to it. 

As another example... I own Platinum Plus at Kierland. I could reserve and rent a Platinum Plus week without question. However, I do not believe I have the right to rent a week in a different season at Kierland as I would be obtaining use of that week via the Club as an exchange of my StarOptions. I have no deeded rights to any week at my resort outside of my deeded season.

Certainly I would like clarity on this issue from VSN in writing, as none of the phone reps can be relied upon for accurate info for this type of info. 


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## PcflEZFlng (Jan 7, 2019)

Ken555 said:


> I think a little refresher would be good, so that we are all on the same page.
> 
> Assuming you own a 2-bed lockoff unit, you may use the full 2-bed in a single week or two weeks (1-bed/studio or 1-bed/1-bed, depending on the resort). When you book 12-8 months in advance during your deeded season, your deeded view is guaranteed (this doesn’t matter at some resorts, like Kierland). When you book 12-8 months in advance, I believe you must book a week at a time. These reservations are only for your home, deeded, resort. When making these reservations you are using your deeded property, not StarOptions and yet, as explained earlier, your remaining StarOptions for the year will automatically be reduced based on the unreserved portion of your week (ie. if you have a 148,100 StarOpton week and you book a large 1-bed in prime season which would otherwise cost 81,000, you will have 67,100 left to use in the event you opt to exchange the smaller 1-bed/studio week for another resort in the network).
> 
> ...


I agree, these are a lot of good questions. Thanks for summarizing. I tried searching Vistana's website for this type of information and wasn't able to find any, not even the handbook that used to be on their old site. Their interactive guide leaves out a lot of details like this. I'm not sure even the handbook would have helped.


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## tschwa2 (Jan 7, 2019)

Another question would be if I bank my points one year and then book at my home resort using those points- say in the same season I own the following year - it would be SO's at 8 months or less- can I rent that?    Also if I use SO's at my home resort during my deeded season but reserve for less than 7 nights or with non regular check in days like Tuesday-Tuesday, can I rent that out?


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## Ken555 (Jan 7, 2019)

tschwa2 said:


> Another question would be if I bank my points one year and then book at my home resort using those points- say in the same season I own the following year - it would be SO's at 8 months or less- can I rent that?    Also if I use SO's at my home resort during my deeded season but reserve for less than 7 nights or with non regular check in days like Tuesday-Tuesday, can I rent that out?



We discussed banking earlier, and IMO if you book via SOs then you are *not* using your deeded week, you are by definition using the club reservation system which means you have already converted your week (or partial week, if a LO) to the club. After all, banking is inherently restricted to SOs and is outside your deeded rights as an owner of your timeshare. Once converted, you have no rights to rent anything reserved via SOs and are totally restricted to whatever Vistana will allow you to do (as with II, which has a policy that you are not allowed to rent any weeks reserved as an exchange).

In essence, the ability to rent should not change at all based on any reservation capability offered by the club. Before we were able to bank SOs, the only method to use a week after the use year was to deposit into an exchange company (II, etc). I don't see why that would change with banking, unless VSN makes a policy change.

I am certain that as others have posted many people are renting weeks they strictly shouldn't. This is exactly why VSN should have clear written policies on these issues, and I suspect there's more than one reason why they don't. Ambiguity is often an advantage for companies like Vistana.  

Keep in mind that Vistana cannot remove your right to rent your deeded home resort period week. However, they can adjust the rules as they see fit to allow or not allow you to rent weeks booked via SOs. And the lack of clarity on this issue is why there is such confusion. I don't see this changing any time soon, nor do I expect any problems with owners renting. (Once again, I have never rented my weeks so have zero experience with it, though I have rented others).


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## tschwa2 (Jan 7, 2019)

Yes, they should have been clear but they weren't.  That's why I too would like them to be clear.  I know what the intent the rules are meant to imply but that isn't what they say.


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## echino (Jan 7, 2019)

Strictly legally speaking, even renting out your deeded home week is not allowed if it's for commercial purposes.

In reality, you can freely rent out your deeded home week, even for commercial purposes. You can also rent out any StarOptions reservation at a resort where you own, no matter how obtained, regardless of what the rules say.

I have never heard about Vistana taking any action against renters of StarOptions reservation at a home resort, I am pretty sure there has been none.

Even a prohibition against renting out a StarOptions reservation at a resort where the renter does NOT own, does not seem to be enforced, but I may be mistaken here. Have there been any cases of people getting in trouble for this?

Bottom line, it does not matter what the rules say. If you interpret rules strictly, you are not allowed to rent out anything. It only matters what is happening in practice.


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## LisaRex (Jan 7, 2019)

echino said:


> Strictly legally speaking, even renting out your deeded home week is not allowed if it's for commercial purposes.



I don't know about that. After Vistana bought out SVO, they tried to implement a fee ($75?) for changing the name on a reservation.  Owners fought back by showing them that via their OA, SVO could not do anything to interfere with the owner's right to use his week, and that would include imposing a fee on a third party reservation.  They quickly abandoned that new rule. 

(Now, the IRS might have something to say about renting it out, as that's a possible taxable event, but unless an owner discloses it, the IRS would have no way of knowing about it.)


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## echino (Jan 7, 2019)

Here you go:

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...-be-prohibited-as-commercial-activity.262024/

Not Vistana, but I am sure similar language can be found in most timeshare condominium documents. Just like if you own a condo where you live, the board can prohibit rentals.


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## echino (Jan 7, 2019)

This is from a Vistana resort:

*Personal Use Restriction. Use of Vacation Ownership Units or the facilities of the Condominium by Owners for commercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described in this Declaration is expressly prohibited. “Commercial purpose” includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Condominium Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.*

No point trying to analyze finer points of legal language. Again, strictly legally, rentals are not allowed. In practice, you can do anything you want, as long as Vistana doesn't care.


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## PcflEZFlng (Jan 8, 2019)

But then there's this from Vistana's website under Ownership 101, Renting My Vacation Ownership Interest:

*Vistana™ Signature Experiences does not offer an Owner rental program at any of its villa resorts. However, as an Owner, you may reserve a Vacation Period at your Home Resort and arrange a private third-party rental. All renters must comply with the rules and regulations of your Home Resort, and as the Owner, you will be responsible for the acts or omissions of your renter and their guests.
*
So it does indeed appear they're explicitly okay with renting at the Home Resort, as long as an owner doesn't exhibit a pattern of renting that would indicate commercial activity. Still leaves out a lot of detail and subject to quite a bit of interpretation.


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## PamMo (Jan 9, 2019)

Below is the response I just received, when I asked for a written clarification on renting a unit in a resort that you own. It looks like you can rent anything up to the limit of your VOI's at the resort.







_Dear PAM,

*The reservation may be booked at any time during 12-8 months prior (HRRP ) and or 8-0 months window (VSN).* The reservation is required to be at your Home Resort and should not exceed the number of Vacation Ownership Interests (VOI) you own at that resort. The Third Party Guest fee is non-refundable and would only apply to the VSN reservation. 

If an Owner is renting and the VSN reservation is not at their Home Resort, then the Owner cannot change the reservation to a Third Party. 

I hope this information is helpful. Should you have any questions, please let me know.

Sincerely,

Shannon B.
Quality Connections

*T* *F* 
VISTANA SIGNATURE EXPERIENCES
9002 SAN MARCO COURT
ORLANDO, FL 32819 _​


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 9, 2019)

PamMo said:


> Below is the response I just received, when I asked for a written clarification on renting a unit in a resort that you own. It looks like you can rent anything up to the limit of your VOI's at the resort.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Way to take charge!!!
This is what I do when it impacts me (this does not as we use or rent our HR using HR reservations).


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## CalGalTraveler (Jan 9, 2019)

Great information. As a new Vistana owner, I am confused by the definition of "VOI." What does it mean "not exceeding your "VOI"? e.g.

Is season part of VOI definition? Different season but same type e.g. own a 2 bdrm OF (VOI) but can secure and rent  OF Christmas 2bdrm or 1 bdrm IV if available at 8 months?

Or is VOI = SO? An OF owner could use SO's (VOI = max SO) and downgrade to an OV or IV smaller unit, rent that out and use the rest of the SOs to trade for personal use?

or using Max SOs (VOI) in which an IV 2 bdrm owner could rent an OV/OF studio or 1 bdrm and rent it out?

Good to know options for the future in case we cannot use the unit.


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## PamMo (Jan 9, 2019)

VOI = Vacation Ownership Interest. It's the legal description on your deed. Starwood layered StarOptions on top of this for all VOI's the developer sold. The right to StarOptions only goes along with the mandatory resorts when a VOI is sold on the secondary market.

If you own a deeded 2BR oceanfront unit in Maui, you have the right to book/rent your OF 2BR or an OF 1BR + OF Studio. With the ability to use StarOptions for a VSN reservations at your home resort, it appears you can rent whatever you can reserve with your StarOptions at your home resort (with the StarOptions you get from your home resort VOI).


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## CalGalTraveler (Jan 9, 2019)

PamMo said:


> With the ability to use StarOptions for a VSN reservations at your home resort, it appears you can rent whatever you can reserve with your StarOptions at your home resort (with the StarOptions you get from your home resort VOI).



This is helpful thanks.

The ability to apply SO is the part that concerns me. I could see being able to rent your VOI unit type or lock-off from 8 months to check-in by using SOs. And it *might* be fair to have an OF and then rent out an OV or IV (lesser unit) if that's all that's available at 8 months because the owner paid a premium and is downgrading. However I don't see it as fair the other way around e.g. owner of a cheaper IV unit renting out an OF by using their SOs. But perhaps it nets out because they could only book smaller units because they don't have enough SOs to book a full 2 bdrm OF?

It also sounds like event weeks are fair game if available at 8 months.

This is probably why the "commercial clause" is there. Okay for occasional or single unit or two owned by a family because that doesn't move the needle, but when it becomes a rental *business *which blocks owners from using their SOs to reserve for personal use during popular weeks, there is cause for concern. If this gets out of hand, VSN can make an example out of someone.


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## PamMo (Jan 9, 2019)

Most oceanfront villas are reserved by owners in the 8-12 month Home Resort booking period. If you're going to rent your OF unit in a prime week, you need to book as soon as that reservation window opens up at 12 months or they will be gone!

I think it's only fair to open it up both ways for StarOption reservations. If I can book and rent a week in a 1BR (no guaranteed view)  with my studio OF 81K StarOptions, an IV owner ought to be able to book any view for as many days as they want as well.


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## DeniseM (Jan 9, 2019)

> It also sounds like event weeks are fair game if available at 8 months.



Vistana does not release unreserved Event Weeks for Staroption reservations - they keep them and rent them.


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