# New policy - confirming Guest Reservations [MORE CHANGES]



## DeniseM (Nov 22, 2016)

Vistana Owner Services (reservations) will no longer confirm reservations for guests/renters - in other words, they won't speak directly to your guest and confirm their reservation over the phone.

A couple of options to work around this:

1)  Do a conference call along with your guest to reservations.

2)  Have your guest call the resort front desk instead - but check with the front desk first to make sure they have received the reservation, because when they receive it from Owner Services seems to vary widely.

If you are unhappy about this new policy, you can send a message to Vistana through the dashboard on your Vistana Acct.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 22, 2016)

I am VERY unhappy with the new policy.  That is ridiculous.  I will send a message to Vistana.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 24, 2016)

Seems like they want to make it harder on renters and hope they give up and stop renting or make it herder to find renters that don't want the hassle. A bad policy IMO.


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## vacationhopeful (Nov 25, 2016)

Having renting in the past, some renters seem to like calling the resort almost daily to confirm their reservation still exists or to beg for the best unit in the resort. And more than once, a Front Desk supervisor has called ME to ask, "what is the problem?".  And most Front Desk staff, are "people" people .. wanting to help an inbound guest.

In fixed week resorts, I explain the view and unit before taking money. I still get repeated requests for "best" view ... oceanfront unit .... etc. If I have a LOW unit .... or intercoastal view unit ... I disclosed that verbally and in the paperwork. These rentals are when a resort is 100% occupied. And many times, units are occupied by the owners (and for multiple weeks). And if I have a multiple week guest, I ask ... do you want to move each week or would you take a lesser view, to NOT MOVE each week? Ocean side (with the early morning sun) OR the intercoastal (for the sunset?). 

Surprisingly, many owners and repeat guests, are happy campers with the intercoastal view. Or happier still with NOT MOVING each week.


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## PamMo (Nov 26, 2016)

I guess I'm the contrarian on this one (even though I rent some of my weeks). I can totally understand the rationale behind the new policy. You've made the reservation, put in your requests, and have received confirmation. You've given that information to your renter, but he wants extra reassurance you're legit. Apparently an email directly from Vistana.com isn't good enough for some people. I've read recommendations on TUG that renters call the resort several times prior to check-in to verify and make sure the reservation hasn't been changed. Add in time to discuss special requests for unit views, early check-in, etc., and the costs add up. Vistana customer service and hotel front desk time is paid for by all owners. Why should Vistana (Vistana timeshare owners) subsidize owners who rent out their weeks for a profit?

Perhaps this is an over reaction to reports of renters calling in a lot? Hopefully a reasonable compromise can be made. Why not a simple automated email confirmation of the reservation from Vistana to your rental customer?


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## okwiater (Nov 27, 2016)

PamMo said:


> Perhaps this is an over reaction to reports of renters calling in a lot? Hopefully a reasonable compromise can be made. Why not a simple automated email confirmation of the reservation from Vistana to your rental customer?



FWIW, I agree with you. There is no reason that Vistana needs to confirm reservations with anybody's renters. The contract is between the unit owner and the renter; Vistana is not party to that transaction and should not be involved. In addition, it's very easy to click the "E-mail My Confirmation" button on the Villa Finder, type in the guest's e-mail address, and let them receive a copy of the official confirmation. If the guest wants to confirm 6 times before check-in, it should be the owner's hassle, not Vistana's.


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## DeniseM (Nov 27, 2016)

1)  Actually, Vistana is _employeed by owners_ to provide whatever services we ask them to perform.  We own the timeshares - they are the management company.

2)  If there is going to be a change - owners should be informed.

3)  This doesn't just apply to "renters" - this applies to any guest that you have in your timeshare.  Even when using my own timeshares, I always confirm the reservation before check-in - it is the prudent thing to do.  I'd hate to show up in Hawaii, or Scotland, or any where else, to find out there was a problem with my reservation.


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## okwiater (Nov 27, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> 1)  Actually, Vistana is _employeed by owners_ to provide whatever services we ask them to perform.  We own the timeshares - they are the management company.



I don't think anybody has disputed this. PamMo and I are simply arguing that since a rental is a transaction between owner and renter, there isn't a good reason to impose a burden on Vistana "the management company" to confirm reservations since this results in costs which are borne by all owners. As PamMo stated, "why should Vistana (Vistana timeshare owners) subsidize owners who rent out their weeks for a profit?"



DeniseM said:


> 2)  If there is going to be a change - owners should be informed.



I agree; policy changes should always be communicated rather than discovered in an ad hoc manner.



DeniseM said:


> 3)  This doesn't just apply to "renters" - this applies to any guest that you have in your timeshare.  Even when using my own timeshares, I always confirm the reservation before check-in - it is the prudent thing to do.  I'd hate to show up in Hawaii, or Scotland, or any where else, to find out there was a problem with my reservation.



Are e-mail confirmations sent directly from Vistana a less reliable indicator of the status of your reservation than a phone call? I'd argue the opposite -- that your phone call "confirmation" is far less reliable and useful than a written e-mail.


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## DeniseM (Nov 27, 2016)

Vistana has a vested interest in hindering owners who want to rent their timeshares, because they can and do Hoover up all unreserved inventory at 60 days before check-in - for their OWN rental program and their OWN profit.

Do you really believe that any savings that Vistana realizes from cutting services to owners will go back to owners?  NO CHANCE


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 27, 2016)

I don't think my guests call a lot to confirm their reservations.  I think an occasional person does call.  I pay a lot in MF's, and I can rent my weeks I cannot use myself, and I deserve the service I am paying Vistana to provide, even if that means my renter gets a verbal confirmation from them that the reservation is valid.  If you have one week and rent it because you don't want to deposit your week in II or RCI, you also deserve the service you are paying for.  Doesn't matter how many weeks one owns.


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## okwiater (Nov 27, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> Vistana has a vested interest in hindering owners who want to rent their timeshares, because they can and do Hoover up all unreserved inventory at 60 days before check-in - for their OWN rental program and their OWN profit.
> 
> Do you really believe that any savings that Vistana realizes from cutting services to owners will go back to owners?  NO CHANCE



I can be just as much of a conspiracy theorist as the next person, but this is a bit too much for me. Vistana's policy change is merely for the resort management company -- whose job is to manage the resort on behalf of its _owners_ -- to no longer confirm reservations to _third parties._ Third parties have no relationship with Vistana. Renters have no relationship with Vistana. Their only relationship is with the individual owner who happens to have a unit they wish to rent.

Although an impact of this policy change _might_ be that it could become _slightly_ more difficult for an individual to rent their unit (although in this age of Airbnb and VRBO, I doubt it), it really takes some wild speculation to chalk this up to a sinister Vistana plot to preserve more rental inventory for themselves. Much more likely is that third party renters were taking up a significant amount of phone agent time by calling repeatedly to confirm reservations. An agent whose time is spent helping a third party renter is an agent who isn't available to help an owner. Whether or not Vistana would actually pass any savings back to the owners is a separate issue, but is not itself an argument that Vistana "the management company" should be subsidizing any aspect of providing customer service to third party renters.


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## okwiater (Nov 27, 2016)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I deserve the service I am paying Vistana to provide, even if that means my renter gets a verbal confirmation from them that the reservation is valid.



In what part of the management agreement does Vistana promise to provide customer service to third parties who are party to an independent rental agreement with you?


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## DeniseM (Nov 27, 2016)

As someone who have been observing Starwood/Vistana for many years, when management makes changes - it benefits management - it's naive to believe anything else.  The fact that they did this behind closed doors, with no notification to owners says it all.


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## okwiater (Nov 27, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> As someone who have been observing Starwood/Vistana for many years, when management makes changes - it benefits management - it's naive to believe anything else.  The fact that they did this behind closed doors, with no notification to owners says it all.



I certainly grant that you've been in this ecosystem longer than I have. Given what you know, is it possible that this isn't a policy change at all, but rather a tightening of the existing rules? I'm not aware of any published material stating anything along the lines of, "if you have a renter or other third party who wishes to confirm their reservation, feel free to provide them with the Owner Services number and we'll be happy to confirm it for them." I wonder if it may have just been a feature that existed by chance and was never officially sanctioned.


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## DeniseM (Nov 27, 2016)

If you use this as your standard for what management can and cannot do, you are in deep water, because many details are not documented, which means of course, that management can do whatever they please, which is pretty much what they do.

The past practice of 15+ years sets the precedent.  Changing that with no notice is not acceptable.

This is the deal:  If owners don't hold Vistana accountable, who do you think will?


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## okwiater (Nov 27, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> If you use this as your standard for what management can and cannot do, you are in deep water, because many details are not documented, which means of course, that management can do whatever they please, which is pretty much what they do.
> 
> The past practice of 15+ years sets the precedent.  Changing that with no notice is not acceptable.
> 
> This is the deal:  If owners don't hold Vistana accountable, who do you think will?



I don't disagree that communicating even perceived policy changes is preferable to the alternative; however, I'm not sure what you mean by holding Vistana accountable. Hold them accountable to what? To a set of services that they never officially provided but that a small subset of owners had discovered in an ad hoc manner? I'm under no illusion that management leaves themselves lots of leeway to adjust their business practices as they see fit, but I'm not going to imagine that I'm entitled to a level of service that hasn't been promised.

I think it's only fair for owners to expect Vistana to provide the services necessary to administer and reserve their fractional shares of ownership and not to expect Vistana to provide anything else. If owners want additional services, they should pay for them. Certainly an owner could outsource the management of their timeshare rentals to a third party company if it's important to them, right?


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## DeniseM (Nov 27, 2016)

Okiwater - If you are happy to be treated as if Vistana is your boss, instead of the other way around, that is your choice.  But the fact is that Vistana works for owners - not the other way around.

Arguing that Vistana can do anything they want, as long as it isn't specifically forbidden, is dangerous ground.

YMMV


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## DeniseM (Nov 27, 2016)

Okwiater - Just curious - did you buy all your TS's from the developer?


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## okwiater (Nov 27, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> Okiwater - If you are happy to be treated as if Vistana is your boss, instead of the other way around, that is your choice.  But the fact is that Vistana works for owners - not the other way around.
> 
> Arguing that Vistana can do anything they want, as long as it isn't specifically forbidden, is dangerous ground.



I'm not arguing that Vistana can do anything they want as long as it isn't specifically forbidden. That's simply a fact, not an opinion that can be argued one way or the other.

I do understand your point that Vistana works at the pleasure of the owners, but I also understand that their responsibilities are limited to those specified in the legal agreements to which they (Vistana) and we (the Owners) have committed -- that's it. I don't expect them to go outside of those bounds particularly if it increases costs, and I think it's unreasonable for Owners to expect otherwise.



DeniseM said:


> Okwiater - Just curious - did you buy all your TS's from the developer?



No, my first was a resale WKV Plat+. Since then, I have combined a mix of developer and resale purchases (using strategies learned on TUG!).


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## DeniseM (Nov 27, 2016)

I strongly disagree.  Small changes over time devalue ownership.  Owners can't simply sit on their hands and accept anything that Vistana wants to do.  YMMV


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 27, 2016)

On the Wyndham forum, I argued with another TUG poster about mid-week housekeeping at Shearwater.  We own at Shearwater and pay fees to Wyndham to maintain the property.  Wyndham gets 52 MF's out of each unit.  I pay fees on two weeks, but this time, I exchanged through RCI into SW because I converted my weeks to points in 2010.  

All owners and those using Wyndham points for their ressies get mid-week cleaning, but exchangers do not get that service.   If 52 weeks get MF's, why are weeks in the exchange system not getting mid-week tidy?  Exchangers are probably new to the island and do not know about damp towels left on the floor and taking trash out often to avoid bug problems.  

It's kind of the same thing: a service paid for but no longer given.  It was always done in the past, and for the sake of the entire complex.  It's not a good idea in a climate like the north shore of Kauai (and no AC) to not put someone into a unit mid-week to make sure trash is taken out.  We had roaches in our unit, and it was one by the pool, so probably a unit exchangers get most of the time.  

This is a service taken away arbitrarily by management.  Did they lower their management fees and reduce staff by a person to make up for this loss of service?  Probably not.  What new benefit did we get for the loss of that benefit?


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## okwiater (Nov 27, 2016)

rickandcindy23 said:


> On the Wyndham forum, I argued with another TUG poster about mid-week housekeeping at Shearwater.  We own at Shearwater and pay fees to Wyndham to maintain the property.  Wyndham gets 52 MF's out of each unit.  I pay fees on two weeks, but this time, I exchanged through RCI into SW because I converted my weeks to points in 2010.
> 
> All owners and those using Wyndham points for their ressies get mid-week cleaning, but exchangers do not get that service.   If 52 weeks get MF's, why are weeks in the exchange system not getting mid-week tidy?  Exchangers are probably new to the island and do not know about damp towels left on the floor and taking trash out often to avoid bug problems.
> 
> ...



What you're describing is a legitimate problem, and the remedy in such a scenario is to escalate concerns and ultimately fire the management company if unresolved. And if what we were talking about in this thread was related to the services, amenities, or upkeep provided as part of operating the resorts themselves, I would wholeheartedly join you in your criticisms regarding gradual deterioration. However, what we are talking about is NOT removing a midweek tidy, is NOT removing services or amenities, is NOT reducing cleaning/upkeep standards. We're simply talking about owners expecting the Owner Services phone number to provide customer service on behalf of their third party rentals, which is pretty far removed from the example you're citing.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 27, 2016)

I wasn't even able to get any information from Vistana regarding a week I was looking to purchase and doing due diligence. I had the week and unit number. All they would give me was "averages". Like the average MF was between z and y and the average StarOptions was between a and b. Not really helpful. Not sure why all the secrecy. It isn't like I was asking for personal information about the owner or their account. Heck, I didn't even have the owners name.


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## okwiater (Nov 27, 2016)

dioxide45 said:


> I wasn't even able to get any information from Vistana regarding a week I was looking to purchase and doing due diligence. I had the week and unit number. All they would give me was "averages". Like the average MF was between z and y and the average StarOptions was between a and b. Not really helpful. Not sure why all the secrecy. It isn't like I was asking for personal information about the owner or their account. Heck, I didn't even have the owners name.



Given the frequency with which incorrect information is provided by the reservations agents, do you really want Vistana opening themselves up to the legal liability of allowing those same agents to validate the deeded specifics of each ownership? There's a process for validating that information, it's called an estoppel...


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## dioxide45 (Nov 27, 2016)

okwiater said:


> Given the frequency with which incorrect information is provided by the reservations agents, do you really want Vistana opening themselves up to the legal liability of allowing those same agents to validate the deeded specifics of each ownership? There's a process for validating that information, it's called an estoppel...


I do understand to a degree. Though it wasn't Owner Services that wouldn't give me the MF information. They gave me another number to call to speak with the HOA agents. I don't think I was actually speaking with someone at the HOA, but just another call center employee in Owner Services that answers as the HOA for whatever resort you are calling. As far as I know though, they don't officially provide StarOption information on the estoppel. Though MF amounts are covered. Of course, estoppels have been known to be wrong too.


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## canesfan (Nov 27, 2016)

To be honest I've felt uneasy giving a certain amount of personal information to renters and them calling Vistana/Starwood. With the information they had it isn't that hard for them to get through Starwood security questions into our accounts. I discussed this with Owner Services when I first started renting. They recommended that we put a code on our account. But to be honest, I still think they should be happy with an email confirmation and calling the resort for confirmation, not owners services. Owner Services is for OWNERS.


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## DeniseM (Nov 27, 2016)

A guest can't call the resort for confirmation either - they either connect them to Owner Services, or give them the phone number for owner services.


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## tschwa2 (Nov 27, 2016)

I've always had my guests call the resort directly and Sheraton Broadway Plantation has always confirmed info for the guest.  I have sent 2 guests to Harborside, one through a broker and one direct and I don't know who they confirmed with. 

Do other major systems make you call central reservations to verify or is it usually done on a resort by resort basis?


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 28, 2016)

Wow - this got exciting...

I have never had a renter call SVN/VSN to confirm a rental, nor have I had a Renter request to call SVN/VSN to confirm.  However, I am not running a rental business (renting only my VOIs - approx 20 times in 10 years) - and personally okay with decision by VSE/VSN not to act as a go between for the very low % that have a need for verbal rental confirmation.  IMO, I do not care to subsidize this activity in reducing costs that impacts everyone.  Again IMO - sorry.

I receive multiple emails from VSE prior to my visit (at 1 month and ~1 weeks follow up from the resort) - and the Renter does when it is in their name and email.


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## DeniseM (Nov 28, 2016)

Just to clarify - Vistana only send those follow-up emails to the owner - not to the renter.  All communication goes through the owner.



DavidnRobin said:


> Wow - this got exciting...
> 
> I have never had a renter call SVN/VSN to confirm a rental, nor have I had a Renter request to call SVN/VSN to confirm.  However, I am not running a rental business (renting only my VOIs - approx 20 times in 10 years) - and personally okay with decision buy VSE/VSN not to act as a go between for the very low % that have a need for verbal rental confirmation.  IMO, I do not care to subsidize this activity in reducing costs that impacts everyone.  Again IMO - sorry.
> 
> I receive multiple emails from VSE prior to my visit (at 1 month and ~1 weeks follow up from the resort) - and the Renter does when it is in their name and email.


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## okwiater (Nov 28, 2016)

canesfan said:


> To be honest I've felt uneasy giving a certain amount of personal information to renters and them calling Vistana/Starwood. With the information they had it isn't that hard for them to get through Starwood security questions into our accounts. I discussed this with Owner Services when I first started renting. They recommended that we put a code on our account.



That's funny, I've complained about the same thing. The questions they ask for access to the account (phone number and address) are often part of the public record and are easily provided by numerous individuals besides the actual Owner. I have specifically asked to add a verbal password to my account and they told me they don't have that capability.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 28, 2016)

okwiater said:


> What you're describing is a legitimate problem, and the remedy in such a scenario is to escalate concerns and ultimately fire the management company if unresolved. And if what we were talking about in this thread was related to the services, amenities, or upkeep provided as part of operating the resorts themselves, I would wholeheartedly join you in your criticisms regarding gradual deterioration. However, what we are talking about is NOT removing a midweek tidy, is NOT removing services or amenities, is NOT reducing cleaning/upkeep standards. We're simply talking about owners expecting the Owner Services phone number to provide customer service on behalf of their third party rentals, which is pretty far removed from the example you're citing.



Same thing.  Services of any kind being diluted or eliminated arbitrarily by management is detrimental to the entire ownership.  So of course it is a great example of an eliminated service.  Just because it's Wyndham, that doesn't mean it does not relate to this subject, either, because owners have to stand against management when we lose benefits.


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## okwiater (Nov 28, 2016)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Same thing.  Services of any kind being diluted or eliminated arbitrarily by management is detrimental to the entire ownership.  So of course it is a great example of an eliminated service.  Just because it's Wyndham, that doesn't mean it does not relate to this subject, either, because owners have to stand against management when we lose benefits.



It's not the same thing, actually, for several reasons.

1. We pay a hefty fee for Westin/Sheraton brand affiliation which has certain quality and upkeep standards. If those standards are not being enforced, then it is a violation of the agreement.

2. Providing a mid-week tidy is part of a written standard of the services to which you're entitled.

3. A resort management company's primary responsibility is to provide for the enjoyment of the property by its owners. Maintaining the resort is part of that responsibility. Cleaning the units is part of that responsibility. Preventing intrusion of pests is part of that responsibility. Assisting owners with renting their units or with providing customer service to their renters is NOT part of that responsibility, and Vistana has never pretended to offer these services. The fact that a small subset of owners discovered that they could offload a portion of their rental administration to Vistana does not make the closed loophole an "eliminated service." And, if that loophole was increasing costs that were passed on to owners, I'd argue that it's incumbent upon Vistana to close the loophole.


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## SueDonJ (Nov 28, 2016)

I've always been surprised that any timeshare company allows guests/renters of owners to contact the property or management company directly because it opens them up to liability if errors happen that result in an owner's reservation or account being changed.  Sure it's a minimal risk but it's not altogether impossible.  I LIKE that Marriott still allows guests/renters to make their own inquiries but honestly, I'm expecting them to follow the lead of other timeshare systems and implement a similar restriction sooner rather than later.  (Especially after the fiasco earlier this year with a renter managing to get approval/assistance from Marriott Owner Services to change an owner's II exchange.)


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## LisaRex (Nov 28, 2016)

It's hard for me to get all bothered about this.  I've rented/exchanged my timeshares to other people in the past and I've rented/exchanged from owners in the past.  I've never given VSE's number for prospective renters to call, nor have I ever demanded a reservation line to call.  Admittedly, I don't rent from Craig's List or eBay, which seem rife with fraudsters.  Rather, I use Tug or Redweek, both of which require a modest membership fee to join.  Thankfully, most fraudsters can't be arsed to fork out $10 in order to defraud people. 

When I rented my VOIs, once we reached an agreement on price, I provided my full name, home telephone number, home address, and a screen shot of the "My Information" page and proof that the MFs were up to date. I also invited them to google my county's property tax information records to verify that I'm who I say I am.  (Hint: property records are often searchable and free if you know the county (which can be looked up based on their address), as it's public information.)  Once I received payment, I sent a screen shot of the reservation with their name on it, and forwarded the email confirmation of the reservation.  I also went online and checked the box for Vistana to send the guest a confirmation, which lists the villa type, date, and view (if applicable).  That's it.  When I rented from another owner, I asked for the same info.

So if I was in the business of renting timeshares, I'd change the prospective renters' expectations and simply quit offering the ability to call reservations directly.  If they insisted, I'd schedule the three way call. Otherwise, I'd offer the ability to secure their reservation with PayPal, which accepts credit card payments (and consumer protection).  If what I've offered doesn't satisfy them, then they're going to have to miss out on a good deal.  No risk, no reward.


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## okwiater (Nov 28, 2016)

LisaRex said:


> So if I was in the business of renting timeshares, I'd change the prospective renters' expectations and simply quit offering the ability to call reservations directly.  If they insisted, I'd schedule the three way call. Otherwise, I'd offer the ability to secure their reservation with PayPal, which accepts credit card payments (and consumer protection).  If what I've offered doesn't satisfy them, then they're going to have to miss out on a good deal.  No risk, no reward.



Exactly!!


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 28, 2016)

I used to have my SVO/SVN account password protected, but that fell apart as they do not have a reliable system that is set-up for verbal password protection with Owner Services.


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## PamMo (Nov 28, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> Just to clarify - Vistana only send those follow-up emails to the owner - not to the renter.  All communication goes through the owner.



Is this something a new? I've ALWAYS had Starwood (I haven't rented anything since it changed to Vistana) email the reservation confirmation directly to whoever was going to use our weeks, whether it was family or a renter. I never had to call SVN, I just requested it online. My guests usually got the email confirmation no later than a few hours after I requested it, and they got the follow up emails.


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 28, 2016)

PamMo said:


> Is this something a new? I've ALWAYS had Starwood (I haven't rented anything since it changed to Vistana) email the reservation confirmation directly to whoever was going to use our weeks, whether it was family or a renter. I never had to call SVN, I just requested it online. My guests usually got the email confirmation no later than a few hours after I requested it, and they got the follow up emails.



Denise was referring to the welcome emails - not the reservation confirmations. It was a minor point about contact with Renter - reservation confirmations can be (and are) sent to the Renter.  My Renter's have received both the reservation confirmation (as part of rental agreement), and the welcome emails.  Apparently, the ones dealing with Denise have not. I am not sure it has been consistent with my Renter's, but some certainly have received welcome emails from the resorts (at least the ones who care to stay in contact). I have forwarded them to the renter, and heard from them that they also received the welcome emails.


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## DeniseM (Nov 28, 2016)

BTW - I do not send the follow up emails to my guests, because they all say, *"Call us if you want to cancel your reservation,"* which may cause confusion...


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## suzannesimon (Nov 28, 2016)

i wonder if this will affect Redweek's "Verified" service.  I always get that when I post my rentals and it seems to satisfy the renters.


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 28, 2016)

To clear up confusion - the welcome emails that I was referring are standard and about contacting the concierge to arrange activities. I am sure that there is a 'contact Owner Services, if...' in these emails, but irrelevant based on Rental Contract/Agreement.  Again, this is more of a 3rd party rental issue - IMO - and seemly also based on experiences of those willing to chime in - if I have read completely.

We used a great email offer recently at WKORV - our table scored all the good raffles! I share those type of emails (depending on Renter situation), and I know from some WKORV and WKV renters that these emails are being sent to the person assigned in VSN's records (which I added as part of rental process).

I agree that there is likely a forthcoming reduction in services from VSN - they could use a lot of efficiency improvements from the business aspect.  I can imagine with the ILG takeover that 'efficiencies' would soon come (that is standard corporate process).  I am more concerned about resort quality. The only time I speak to Owner Services is to change reservation name - and even that is unnecessary.  I am sure the Call Center employee numbers are less than previous with the online reservation system (and that still has a lot of improvement needed).


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## vacationtime1 (Nov 29, 2016)

Does Vistana assist owners who exchange their units?  Obviously it does, requiring at least some effort at central reservations co-ordinating with Interval or RCI and some additional work from the resorts' front desks (such as if an exchanger were to call to confirm a reservation).

Then why shouldn't owners who rent their units get the same support from Vistana as owners who exchange their units?


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## okwiater (Nov 29, 2016)

vacationtime1 said:


> Does Vistana assist owners who exchange their units?  Obviously it does, requiring at least some effort at central reservations co-ordinating with Interval or RCI and some additional work from the resorts' front desks (such as if an exchanger were to call to confirm a reservation).
> 
> Then why shouldn't owners who rent their units get the same support from Vistana as owners who exchange their units?



Owners who choose to exchange their units using Interval or RCI are taking advantage of one of Vistana's published service offerings. Vistana as the resort management company needs only to perform certain logistical functions (i.e. inventory management, etc.) to provide that service. However, no representative of Vistana's Owner Reservations line would speak with an II exchanger who happened to snag a unit at a VSE resort.

Similarly, owners who choose to engage a third party renter require Vistana as the resort management company to perform certain logistical functions (i.e. changing the name on the reservation) to facilitate that transaction. However, there is no need for a representative of Vistana's Owner Reservations line to speak with your third party renter any more than they would need to speak with an II exchanger.

Vistana is being entirely consistent here.


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## LisaRex (Nov 29, 2016)

suzannesimon said:


> i wonder if this will affect Redweek's "Verified" service.  I always get that when I post my rentals and it seems to satisfy the renters.



I think you might have hit the nail on the head as to why VSE is changing this policy.  I'd imagine they were sick of confirming ownership for Redweek's benefit.  Their volume is undoubtedly much higher than owners who might rent out one or two units a year.


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## DeniseM (Nov 29, 2016)

I don't believe that Redweek calls to verify.  Redweek has the owner send a copy of their documentation, like their deed and confirmation to verify the reservation.


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## DeniseM (Dec 1, 2016)

Update:  There is a new message on the dashboard today stating that you cannot request Guest Confirmations *online* any more - *you must call*.  So much for cost cutting and saving owner's money!

*Can you imagine how much busier the phone lines will be - where is the "cost savings" now?*

*They also will no longer email confirmations to your guest.*

*Still think they aren't trying to suppress rentals? *

The more difficult they make it to rent, the more timeshares will get deposited in II (they own II - remember) and the more timeshares they can Hoover up and rent themselves.

We are seeing the beginning of the erosion of owner's rights with Vistana.

Are you really OK with that?

If not, you should go to the dashboard and make a complaint ASAP.

*You can also email Suzanne Clark, VP of Owner Services, at (I believe) - suzanne.clark@vistana.com *


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## PamMo (Dec 1, 2016)

Interesting development...

I wouldn't immediately jump on the theory that Vistana is trying to suppress ALL rentals. Perhaps they are trying to stop StarOption exchanges being turned into rentals? I'm OK with that.


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## DeniseM (Dec 1, 2016)

PamMo said:


> Interesting development...
> 
> I wouldn't immediately jump on the theory that Vistana is trying to suppress ALL rentals. Perhaps they are trying to stop StarOption exchanges being turned into rentals? I'm OK with that.



Perhaps, but they are making ALL owners call - this is going to create such a log jam on the phone lines.


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## PamMo (Dec 1, 2016)

Denise, you have a rental business which deals with a lot of owners. Realistically, what percentage of owners do you think this policy affects? I'm pretty sure it is a very, very small minority. Personally, I've never had a problem getting through to Owner Services. If it takes you some extra time, it is simply figured into your cost of doing business.


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## DeniseM (Dec 1, 2016)

It impacts every Vistana owner who ever rents their timeshare or gives it to friends or family, and everyone who calls for other reasons, and will have longer  wait times.  I think it's really going to impact the phone lines, because owner's who formerly did everything online, will have to call.

Plus, every time there is a policy change - there is massive confusion with the lower lever Reps.  That will bog things down as well.

For example - last week when they stopped confirming reservations for guests and renters - the Reps didn't even know about the new policy.  They were telling guests and renters  who called that their reservation had _someone else address and phone number on it._  It was the owner's contact info, but the Reps were completely confused.  In other words - management made the change BEFORE they trained the staff on the new policy!


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## dioxide45 (Dec 1, 2016)

Realistically though, what percentage of owners give their week to friends or rent it out? Perhaps less than 5%? I don't necessarily agree with the policy, but I doubt it will cause a log jam on the phone lines.


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## grgs (Dec 1, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> Update:  There is a new message on the dashboard today stating that you cannot request Guest Confirmations *online* any more - *you must call*.  So much for cost cutting and saving owner's money!
> 
> *Can you imagine how much busier the phone lines will be - where is the "cost savings" now?*
> 
> *They also will no longer email confirmations to your guest.*



I am bummed that you can't put in the name change yourself online.  It was very convenient, and I hate having to use the phone.  Before you could at least make the request via the online system, which was still preferable to calling in.

However, at this point, it's still easy for an owner to send the renter the reservation in their name via the online system.  So the fact that Vistana won't send it, doesn't really bother me. 

Glorian


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## tschwa2 (Dec 1, 2016)

To be honest I usually had to call anyway to add a guest.  The guest  cert link was never in real time with Starwood/Vistana and typically took 48 hrs during the week and 72+ hours over the weekend to update.  Once a reservation is updated you can still go to send a confirmation and put in any email address you would like and it is sent directly from Vistana.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 1, 2016)

tschwa2 said:


> To be honest I usually had to call anyway to add a guest.  The guest  cert link was never in real time with Starwood/Vistana and typically took 48 hrs during the week and 72+ hours over the weekend to update.  Once a reservation is updated you can still go to send a confirmation and put in any email address you would like and it is sent directly from Vistana.


So it sounds like it required human intervention to make the actual update anyway?


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## DeniseM (Dec 1, 2016)

I never call, but for those of you who do, let us know if you have a longer wait time going forward.


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 1, 2016)

My rentals are all summer, so it will be way after the new year before I will have to call, but I always did because like tschwa2, I thought the lag time for adding names via email was too long a process.  But honestly, I am so disappointed Vistana is going this direction with less services, and I am still going to send a message.


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## okwiater (Dec 2, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> Update:  There is a new message on the dashboard today stating that you cannot request Guest Confirmations *online* any more - *you must call*.  So much for cost cutting and saving owner's money!
> 
> *Can you imagine how much busier the phone lines will be - where is the "cost savings" now?*



I agree that this is a step backwards since it removes functionality from the online system; however, I don't think it represents a huge impact in terms of manpower or costs given that the online system merely generated a message that was sent to a human for manual processing.

IMO PamMo is probably correct in that Vistana would like to reduce StarOption rentals (which are against policy), so they are at least going to make you acknowledge to a human that your guest name change is not being performed for prohibited rental purposes.



DeniseM said:


> *They also will no longer email confirmations to your guest.*



Are you sure about that? The feature still appears to be there, for now at least.



dioxide45 said:


> So it sounds like it required human intervention to make the actual update anyway?



Yes. The online system never performed this task in an automated fashion, but merely generated a message that had to be manually processed.


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## DeniseM (Dec 2, 2016)

> Are you sure about that? The feature still appears to be there, for now at least.



Previously, when you called, or used the online function to transfer the reservation to a guest, _reservations_ would send a copy of the confirmation to your guest.  Now, when you call, reservations will specifically tell you that they will not send confirmations to guests.

You can still send the guest a copy of the confirmation* yourself *from the dashboard - after it has been changed.


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## DeniseM (Dec 2, 2016)

One more thought - based on previous interactions, I believe that many of the lower level Reps. will have difficulty determining if a reservation is "qualified" for rental or not.

For instance:  I own at the West Ka'anapali.  If I make a reservation at my home resort 0-7 months before check-in, I am going to get a "Staroption" reservation - even at my home resort.

Another example:  If you split a 2 bedroom home resort reservation into a studio and 1 bedroom within 8 mos. of check-in, one of the reservations will be listed as a "Staroption," reservation, even thought the reservation was made during the home resort reservation period.

Putting this in the hands of entry level people is going to cause confusion.


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## vacationtime1 (Dec 2, 2016)

Just a few days ago, I was able to generate a Guest Confirmation for a renter using Vistana's online system; it took no more than 2-3 minutes to log in and press the right keys. 

Maybe it wasn't a fully automated system, but from my perspective, my renters got a confirmation directly from Vistana. 

Now I must (once again) deal with the gauntlet of a telephone system.  I may have to do this only two or three times per year, but why must I do it at all? 

Why is Vistana intentionally reducing the functionality of its online system?


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## Helios (Dec 2, 2016)

tschwa2 said:


> To be honest I usually had to call anyway to add a guest.  The guest  cert link was never in real time with Starwood/Vistana and typically took 48 hrs during the week and 72+ hours over the weekend to update.  Once a reservation is updated you can still go to send a confirmation and put in any email address you would like and it is sent directly from Vistana.


This is my experience.  I very rarely used the online method because of the delay.


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## Helios (Dec 2, 2016)

dioxide45 said:


> So it sounds like it required human intervention to make the actual update anyway?


Yes, that's why there was a delay.  Same intervention as the coveted wait list for 4 and 5* Elites...

I think of the flintstones and the monkey inside the traffic "light" and compare it to vistana IT...


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## Helios (Dec 2, 2016)

okwiater said:


> IMO PamMo is probably correct in that Vistana would like to reduce StarOption rentals (which are against policy), so they are at least going to make you acknowledge to a human that your guest name change is not being performed for prohibited rental purposes.



I agree, but what they need is enforcement of policies.  And stop the sales practice of saying buy cheap VOIs, reserve at desirable locations, and rent...


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## tschwa2 (Dec 2, 2016)

vacationtime1 said:


> Just a few days ago, I was able to generate a Guest Confirmation for a renter using Vistana's online system; it took no more than 2-3 minutes to log in and press the right keys.
> 
> Maybe it wasn't a fully automated system, but from my perspective, my renters got a confirmation directly from Vistana.
> 
> ...



When you were generating the guest confirmation had you already added the guest name to the reservation or were you both adding the name and generating the confirmation on the same online transaction?  If only generating the confirmation with whatever name is currently listed and sending it to the email of your choice that is still an option and completely automated.  Nothing has changed.    

In the past adding a guest was similar to adding a special request like a high chair.  You sent the request, received an automated message that someone would get back to you in a certain time period and then 2-3 days later receive an email that the request - be it to place the reservation in the name of the guest or the high chair request has been updated in your reservation.


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## vacationtime1 (Dec 2, 2016)

tschwa2 said:


> When you were generating the guest confirmation had you already added the guest name to the reservation or were you both adding the name and generating the confirmation on the same online transaction?  If only generating the confirmation with whatever name is currently listed and sending it to the email of your choice that is still an option and completely automated.  Nothing has changed.
> 
> In the past adding a guest was similar to adding a special request like a high chair.  You sent the request, received an automated message that someone would get back to you in a certain time period and then 2-3 days later receive an email that the request - be it to place the reservation in the name of the guest or the high chair request has been updated in your reservation.



I had previously added the guest's name to the reservation but the guest did not receive the original confirming email from Vistana.  

So my (recent) effort was merely to generate a second confirming email which my renter did receive.

And yes, it took 2-3 days for my renter to receive the confirmation (or at least to tell me about it, although I have rented to him for several years and believe he would have let me know immediately).


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 2, 2016)

The process to switch name on reservation:

Call Owner Services (at time with low call volume)
Give usual info for them to open account, and ask to change name on reservation
Give them reservation # and resort - confirm
Give new name (and pertinant info) - confirm
Send confirmation though portal to person using the reservation - confirm

Yep... real tough - how dare they!  

My renters have received the confirmation (in their name) almost immediately - I send one to myself as well.
I have done this about 3x per year for last 10 years (except up to a few years ago - OS had to send confirmation)


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## DeniseM (Dec 2, 2016)

I'm sure there are some people who like to call Owner Services - but I really dislike calling.  The Reps are often clueless, provide incorrect info., talk too much, and try to strike up a conversation, instead of getting the job done.  I suspect they are trained to do so - but I think it's ridiculous.

However, I remember a poster from years back who just loved calling Owner Services because he enjoyed how obsequious the Reps. were to him.  I swear, I'm not making this up.


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## Helios (Dec 2, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> *Can you imagine how much busier the phone lines will be - where is the "cost savings" now?*



For whatever is worth, I just called the 5* Elite line and waited about one minute.  I don't think I have ever waited...


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## Helios (Dec 2, 2016)

DavidnRobin said:


> The process to switch name on reservation:
> 
> Call Owner Services (at time with low call volume)
> Give usual info for them to open account, and ask to change name on reservation
> ...



First world problems...


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 2, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> I'm sure there are some people who like to call Owner Services - but I really dislike calling.  The Reps are often clueless, provide incorrect info., talk too much, and try to strike up a conversation, instead of getting the job done.  I suspect they are trained to do so - but I think it's ridiculous.
> 
> However, I remember a poster from years back who just loved calling Owner Services because he enjoyed how obsequious the Reps. were to him.  I swear, I'm not making this up.



Based on your usage and needs - I don't blame you.
I have no issue with my discussions with Owner Services - I am not operating as a 3rd party.
I also usually have pleasant conversations - often about how they should visit WSJ since they are in Orlando (for now). I do not recall getting inaccurate information when calling for reservation, but certainly have heard reports.

One thing that is new and that is a reminder that only HomeResort reservations can be rented out - which may be partial reasoning for only using call center.  That, and likelihood of getting incomplete information when doing on-line - creating more errors and work.

As mentioned, back when we were discussing renting SOs (which is somehow a stickie...) - I discussed with S. Clarke and they were discussing internally - perhaps this is an attempt.  They didn't take my advice and add to confirmations.

I sometimes miss Salty - sometimes...


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## vacationtime1 (Dec 3, 2016)

I pinged Vistana questioning the reason for this change and received the following non-response:


Dear XXX XXXXX, TRUSTEE,

I welcome the opportunity to assist with your guest name change inquiry.

Third party requests must be submitted to Owner Services by phone as we are currently updating the verification process. I thank you for your time and patience regarding this matter.

Do not hesitate to contact us if you require additional assistance.

Have a wonderful day!

Sincerely,


Itzel D.

E-Communications Specialist

*T* 888-986-9637 *F* 888-475-9128

VISTANA SIGNATURE EXPERIENCES
9002 SAN MARCO COURT
ORLANDO, FL 32819​

But perhaps this is a temporary situation.  We shall see.


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## rickandcindy23 (Dec 3, 2016)

Wyndham allows real-time guest certificates.  So when you have a confirmation, you just add the guest yourself, and that generates an email confirmation.  So much easier and better for everyone.


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 3, 2016)

Perhaps, to one end, enforcing the renting out of SOs (not allowed by CCRs).
As discussed...


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## tschwa2 (Dec 3, 2016)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Wyndham allows real-time guest certificates.  So when you have a confirmation, you just add the guest yourself, and that generates an email confirmation.  So much easier and better for everyone.


All that and only $100 per guest certificate. No thank you I would rather call (and I hate calling).


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 3, 2016)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Wyndham allows real-time guest certificates.  So when you have a confirmation, you just add the guest yourself, and that generates an email confirmation.  So much easier and better for everyone.



This does not address the issue of some people renting out SOs (as discussed).
As I wrote a while ago - we met a couple at WKORV who owns a dozen or so SVV - and bragged how they reserved WKORV/N and rented for nice profit... great... but against CCRs.

When I rented our WKV weeks - Owner Services did ask if this was a HomeResort name transferred.
I know VSN is aware - I spoke to SC's (SVO VP at the time) people a few years ago about this directly (to clarify position on this) and they are aware.


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## ValleyGirl (Dec 4, 2016)

Wow!
I can't wait till Vistana upgrades their IT staff and phone answering by switching to India.
I just love those phone calls


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## tschwa2 (Dec 9, 2016)

As I stated before, I didn't like the online option to add guest info before (2-3 day lag time to modify reservation) and have always had the guest confirm with the resort so the policy change doesn't really affect me.

Today I called to add guest.  Hold time at 3:13 PM eastern after getting through the automated phone menu was about 4 minutes which seemed slightly longer than in the past.  The agent verified my info and asked which reservation.  All my reservations are home resort reservations.  The agent never asked if I was renting just wanted to know if I was adding the name in addition to my own or removing my name and just putting the reservation in the guest name.  I asked if they need the guest address and phone and was told they no longer need this and they will email the reservation to me to forward to my guest.  I also went online and requested a reservation sent to me to compare time.  They both came at the same time which was about 10 minutes after the request.  The phone call including the hold an automated menu time took about 12 minutes. 

One thing that I find somewhat odd and annoying about the premium 1 br units are that the stated maximum is 4 although the policy is that if a roll out is available (and paid for at check in) then 5 is allowed. The agent re-iterated this policy when I said that there would be 2 adults and 3 children. They only confirm availability for the cot at check in, what would happen if you have 5 and arrive in the Bahamas or Hawaii and the roll out is not available?  I always put in the request when confirming the unit 12 months in advance and have never not had it available but what would happen if none were available.  Since it is obviously not a fire code restriction, the stated and written policy should be that 5 are allowed although bedding is only guaranteed for 4 and the 5th bed/cot is not guaranteed.  Obviously this would also apply to 9 staying in a 2 br lockout as well.


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## DeniseM (Dec 9, 2016)

Although reservations often is confused about this - at the Maui resorts, the roll-away is free, and at Harborside it is $5 per night.

You can find the written policy (but not the price) by clicking on the "Special Conditions" link on your confirmation.


> MAUI:  Rollaway beds are limited to one per villa and are not available in the studio premium villa due to space limitations.





> HARBORSIDE:  Charges may apply. Rollaway beds are limited to one per villa and are available only in the One-Bedroom Premium and Two-Bedroom Lockoff villas. Rollaways may not be requested for the One-Bedroom, Two-Bedroom or Three-Bedroom Lockoff villas.





> have always had the guest confirm with the resort so the policy change doesn't really affect me.


Just to clarify - guests can no longer confirm with the front desk nor with Owner Services, unless you do a conference call with them.  I tested this at both HRA and Maui, and they connected me with Owner Services, who said no.​


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 9, 2016)

Thanks @tschwa2 for the update.

The upside (for me) is that I am no longer required to supply complete Renter info (name, address, email, phone) - more than just the  Renter's name with Owner Services, and no longer need to require this info from the Renter and this reduces this requirement in my rental agreement.  Also, (and DeniseM may be happy...) Owner services will no longer potentially send confusing emails to the Renter as it will now be up to Owner to forward relevant emails (which I do anyway).

IMO - The cot/occupancy should be a Resort issue, and not under purview of Owner Services. I have seen text about this potential no-cot caveat in their documentation - true for Hotels as well. However, this is likely a CYA by VSE/VSN and not an issue that actually arises (based on never hearing about it happening on TUG or FlyerTalk). It is the Resort that assigns villas based on reservations as it is similar to a constructing a jigsaw puzzle that changes up until the check-in day.
Also, I do not expect some min-pay OS dweeb to know the occupancy nuances of all VSE resort and villa types (other than what is stated in their documentation) - especially when it comes to # villa cots available and space (and fire codes, etc) as they would not know this info for individual resorts - this would be @DeniseM level knowledge... 
IMO, but I respect the views of others although I may disagree...


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## DeniseM (Dec 9, 2016)

> this would be @DeniseM level



I'm going to take this as a compliment!


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 9, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> I'm going to take this as a compliment!



Totally is... and I got to try out the new @TugUserName feature.


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## grgs (Dec 9, 2016)

tschwa2 said:


> Today I called to add guest.  Hold time at 3:13 PM eastern after getting through the automated phone menu was about 4 minutes which seemed slightly longer than in the past.  The agent verified my info and asked which reservation.  All my reservations are home resort reservations.  The agent never asked if I was renting just wanted to know if I was adding the name in addition to my own or removing my name and just putting the reservation in the guest name.  I asked if they need the guest address and phone and was told they no longer need this and they will email the reservation to me to forward to my guest.



I also just changed the name on a home resort reservation yesterday, and this is pretty much how it worked for me.

Not having to give address/email info does shorten the time up.  I'd still rather do this online, but I can live with this.

Glorian

P.S. Just for David, I added an avatar (from Lagunamar).


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 9, 2016)

grgs said:


> I also just changed the name on a home resort reservation yesterday, and this is pretty much how it worked for me.
> 
> Not having to give address/email info does shorten the time up.  I'd still rather do this online, but I can live with this.
> 
> Glorian



Hi Glorian - Happy Holidays!
From what I read - this may go back onto on-line system. It would be nice if it were real time (and prevent SO rentals - which they may be working on...) - other than emailing and waiting 2 days. Otherwise, I will just call.


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## 47vampire (Dec 14, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> Update:  There is a new message on the dashboard today stating that you cannot request Guest Confirmations *online* any more - *you must call*.  So much for cost cutting and saving owner's money!
> 
> *Can you imagine how much busier the phone lines will be - where is the "cost savings" now?*
> 
> ...


I have read several pages of this thread and a couple of items jump out at me.  I don't know too many people who make money renting their timeshares.  I own 3 weeks(Vistana)  and have limited success at renting thru TUG.  I charge what my fees are just to cover my expenses.  I try to use what I own and have been in the process of deeding back/giving back several other timeshares since the death of some of the family members who were also users. TUG has been a great source of info in this effort and especially Denise.  I just own too much to use or to try to rent.  On everything Vistana I read it clearly says it is illegal to rent my units and if caught, I can loose use. So it seems there is this place that they know people rent and doing so against policy but don't spend time trying to stop it as long as your renter doesn't cause a problem at the resort.  I see both sides of less services and protect owner info.  I hope that the levels we have had as Sheraton owners will be maintained moving forward.  I haven't always had that experience with other companies as my other units were bought and sold.


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## DeniseM (Dec 14, 2016)

> On everything Vistana I read it clearly says it is illegal to rent my units and if caught, I can loose use.



Just to clarify:

-It is absolutely not illegal to rent your timeshares, nor is it against Vistana policy.

-You cannot lose them - Vistana does not have the legal authority to take your deeded timeshare from you.

-You may be mixing up Vistana rules with Interval International rules.


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## okwiater (Dec 14, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> -It is absolutely not illegal to rent your timeshares, nor is it against Vistana policy.



It is, however, against Vistana policy to rent a StarOptions reservation. That warning appears in various places, and could be confusing to an owner.


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## bobpark56 (Dec 16, 2016)

okwiater said:


> It is, however, against Vistana policy to rent a StarOptions reservation. That warning appears in various places, and could be confusing to an owner.


Hmmmm...I have a home options Thanksgiving week reservation at WSJ. Is it against Starwood policy for me to rent this unit out?


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## tschwa2 (Dec 16, 2016)

Home options are a trust of weeks of which you own a benificial interest.  Using home options is the same as using your deeded week.  If you go outside of the home options into SO's and book something you would not be intitled to with your home options, you are using a club exchange which is against the rules to rent.


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 16, 2016)

bobpark56 said:


> Hmmmm...I have a home options Thanksgiving week reservation at WSJ. Is it against Starwood policy for me to rent this unit out?



Again... it is okay to rent your Home Resort.  It is not okay to rent SO exchanges. For example: Reserving WKORV/N using SOs from another resort - and then renting that WKORV/N reservation IS NOT ALLOWED.

Will VSE take away your VOI? No
Can the Renters of a non-HomeResort SO rental be denied their reservation? Yes
Is VSE/VSN trying to (finally) enforce the CCR rules concerning the rental of non-HomeResort SOs? Apparently


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## Helios (Dec 16, 2016)

How will they address the rental of home resort units in your deeded season that were made within 8 months from arrival?  I think these resies should be marked as Home Resort reservations but they are marked as Networks reservations even if the SOs come from from a home week.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 16, 2016)

bobpark56 said:


> Hmmmm...I have a home options Thanksgiving week reservation at WSJ. Is it against Starwood policy for me to rent this unit out?


Are your HomeOptions from WSJ Sunset Bay phase or is it from the Sheraton Flex or Nanea products? If your reservation is at WSJ in the Sunset Bay phase, then you can rent the reservation. If it is any other phase at WSJ or the HomeOptions are from either of the two latter products, you can't rent the reservation per the rules


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## bizaro86 (Dec 16, 2016)

Really? So there are no rentable-within-the-rules reservations at Nanea?


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## dioxide45 (Dec 16, 2016)

bizaro86 said:


> Really? So there are no rentable-within-the-rules reservations at Nanea?


Yes, if you make a reservation at Nanea using Nanea HomeOptions, you can rent that unit. The person I was responding to had a WSJ reservation, so if they happened to own Nanea HomeOptions, it would be unrentable.


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 16, 2016)

Helios said:


> How will they address the rental of home resort units in your deeded season that were made within 8 months from arrival?  I think these resies should be marked as Home Resort reservations but they are marked as Networks reservations even if the SOs come from from a home week.



This is a grey area - by strict VSE/VSN CCRs - any reservation made as a VSN reservation (<8 month mark) with StarOption (when HOs convert to SOs and can be used throughout VSN) can no longer be rented as a HomeResort reservation as it has gone to VSN SO pool. This would apply to the standard VOIs (week intervals) - not sure how Flex systems works and if they have different HomeResort periods. I would imagine for Nanea - you cannot use RV points at <8 months to reserve OF and then rent it out.

And before getting bashed... this is according to the CCRs as it is no longer a HomeResort reservation even if you use SOs to reserve at your Home resort at <8 months as it is now within VSN period and part of SO pool.  This is also true for maintaining view level, etc...

Now... whether they would enforce (or could) is another question. Only they can answer this - good luck getting a reliable response.


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## bizaro86 (Dec 16, 2016)

@dioxide45 ok thanks. I was just confused, as a WSJ reservation made with Nanea options is a star option reservation, not a home option reservation.

I had always assumed they would need to leave renting your home resort time an option for sales purposes.


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## bobpark56 (Dec 17, 2016)

dioxide45 said:


> Are your HomeOptions from WSJ Sunset Bay phase or is it from the Sheraton Flex or Nanea products? If your reservation is at WSJ in the Sunset Bay phase, then you can rent the reservation. If it is any other phase at WSJ or the HomeOptions are from either of the two latter products, you can't rent the reservation per the rules


My home options are for Coral Vista. Do the rules here differ from those at Sunset Bay?


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## dioxide45 (Dec 17, 2016)

bobpark56 said:


> My home options are for Coral Vista. Do the rules here differ from those at Sunset Bay?


I don't really know how Vistana setup WSJ. I think they sell HomeOptions for the Summer Bay and Coral Vista phases? If so, if you own HOs from one of the phases, can you reserve the other phase >8 months out?

In the end, the best way to determine if you can rent a HO reservation, or any reservation for that matter is if you can reserve the week you have >8 months out, you should be able to rent it. If you have to wait till 8 months to reserve what you have, then no, it can't be rented.


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## okwiater (Dec 17, 2016)

It's really not that complicated. You are only permitted to rent a unit reserved >8 months prior to arrival, OR a unit you _could have_ reserved >8 months prior to arrival.

The intent is that you are entitled to use or rent your deeded/owned property, but you are NOT entitled to use the Vistana Signature Network exchange program to rent weeks you don't own.

As such, if you own HomeOptions for WSJ Coral Vista in Resort season, then you can reserve and rent any unit in Coral Vista during Resort season. You can't reserve Coral Vista during Diamond season (using StarOptions) to rent it. Nor can you reserve Sunset Bay (using StarOptions) to rent it.


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## Helios (Dec 17, 2016)

DavidnRobin said:


> This is a grey area - by strict VSE/VSN CCRs - any reservation made as a VSN reservation (<8 month mark) with StarOption (when HOs convert to SOs and can be used throughout VSN) can no longer be rented as a HomeResort reservation as it has gone to VSN SO pool. This would apply to the standard VOIs (week intervals) - not sure how Flex systems works and if they have different HomeResort periods. I would imagine for Nanea - you cannot use RV points at <8 months to reserve OF and then rent it out.
> 
> And before getting bashed... this is according to the CCRs as it is no longer a HomeResort reservation even if you use SOs to reserve at your Home resort at <8 months as it is now within VSN period and part of SO pool.  This is also true for maintaining view level, etc...
> 
> Now... whether they would enforce (or could) is another question. Only they can answer this - good luck getting a reliable response.



I hear you and won't start the bashing.  I agree on the strict interpretation of CCRs, how about okwiater point above?  I like it because he says you can rent something you could have reserved before 8 months from arrival.


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## Helios (Dec 17, 2016)

okwiater said:


> It's really not that complicated. You are only permitted to rent a unit reserved >8 months prior to arrival, OR a unit you _could have_ reserved >8 months prior to arrival.
> 
> The intent is that you are entitled to use or rent your deeded/owned property, but you are NOT entitled to use the Vistana Signature Network exchange program to rent weeks you don't own.



I am not a CCR expert but I like your definition about what you can rent.  I think renting a unit that was reserved before 8 months from arrival or something that could have been reserved before 8 months from arrival is a good interpretation.  Sometimes plans change and you need to reserve (and/or rent) what you own within the 8 months period.

Enforcing the legitimacy of the SO rental would be too complicated in this case because it would make it not as simple as you can only rent a Home Resort Coded resie


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 17, 2016)

Helios said:


> I hear you and won't start the bashing.  I agree on the strict interpretation of CCRs, how about okwiater point above?  I like it because he says you can rent something you could have reserved before 8 months from arrival.



I would suggest looking at VSE/VSN CCRs - SVEC Rules and Regulations (when it was called SVN which is now VSN):
_
8.2 SVN Member Rentals. An SVN Member may reserve a Vacation Period at the SVN Member's Home Resort and rent it on the SVN Member's own account. All renters must comply with the rules and regulations of the Resort Documents affecting occupancy, and the renting SVN Member will be responsible for the acts or omissions of the SVN Member's renters or any other person or persons permitted by the SVN Member to use the Unit. Rental by an SVN Member of Units reserved through SVN (other than a Vacation Period reserved at the SVN Member's Home Resort) is prohibited.
_
Anyone have the new VSE/VSN rules and regulations from recent purchase?


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## okwiater (Dec 17, 2016)

Helios said:


> I am not a CCR expert but I like your definition about what you can rent.  I think renting a unit that was reserved before 8 months from arrival or something that could have been reserved before 8 months from arrival is a good interpretation.  Sometimes plans change and you need to reserve (and/or rent) what you own within the 8 months period.
> 
> Enforcing the legitimacy of the SO rental would be too complicated in this case because it would make it not as simple as you can only rent a Home Resort Coded resie



That's correct. Being a member of VSN was never intended to abridge your usage rights, only to expand them. So just as a non-VSN member could reserve and rent a unit at their home resort within 8 months, so can a VSN member. And yes, this makes it very difficult to enforce because the enforcer would have to be familiar with your ownerships as well as which bucket of StarOptions you used to make the reservation.


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## Helios (Dec 17, 2016)

okwiater said:


> That's correct. Being a member of VSN was never intended to abridge your usage rights, only to expand them. So just as a non-VSN member could reserve and rent a unit at their home resort within 8 months, so can a VSN member. And yes, this makes it very difficult to enforce because the enforcer would have to be familiar with your ownerships as well as which bucket of StarOptions you used to make the reservation.


Why don't they just code all resies as Home Resort if they are made to reserve the unit you own during the season you own even if the resie is made within the 8 month period.  The system knows what options are being used for the resie and what you own...if it is an exact match I think it should be a home resort resie.


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## Helios (Dec 17, 2016)

Helios said:


> Why don't they just code all resies as Home Resort if they are made to reserve the unit you own during the season you own even if the resie is made within the 8 month period.  The system knows what options are being used for the resie and what you own...if it is an exact match I think it should be a home resort resie.


or they could say network reservation using home resort SOs


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## okwiater (Dec 18, 2016)

Helios said:


> Why don't they just code all resies as Home Resort if they are made to reserve the unit you own during the season you own even if the resie is made within the 8 month period.  The system knows what options are being used for the resie and what you own...if it is an exact match I think it should be a home resort resie.



Once the VSN 8-month threshold has been reached, you aren't necessarily booking your owned unit any longer. You might get your owned unit but you might get something comparable instead. So it's important to distinguish that the reservation is not a Home Resort Reservation.



Helios said:


> or they could say network reservation using home resort SOs



Yes, that would be more accurate. The system could theoretically be programmed to flag a VSN reservation as having used the correct SOs to be eligible for rental. But that's a pretty complex calculation given the various rules which apply, and I'm not sure the benefits outweigh the costs. For instance, programming the systems would cost time and money. Training the staff to enforce the rule would cost time and money. And even then, it wouldn't be truly enforceable since owners are still permitted to "give away" their reservation and allow it to be used by someone else.


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## duke (Dec 19, 2016)

okwiater said:


> And even then, it wouldn't be truly enforceable since owners are still permitted to "give away" their reservation and allow it to be used by someone else.



How could they possibly tell that you "rented" an VSN reservation as opposed to just letting your guests stay there?
This rule is stupid and only for the benefit of VSN so they can rent their units without competition.


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## okwiater (Dec 19, 2016)

duke said:


> How could they possibly tell that you "rented" an VSN reservation as opposed to just letting your guests stay there?



If everybody keeps the rental arrangement on the DL, the likelihood is that they won't be able to tell.



duke said:


> This rule is stupid and only for the benefit of VSN so they can rent their units without competition.



I don't think the rule is stupid. Allowing owners to rent VSN reservations will just create a feeding frenzy at the opening of the booking window for the most popular weeks at the most popular resorts, which would in turn dilute the value of the network for personal use.

A timeshare isn't a financial investment and shouldn't be treated like one. Anything that makes it more difficult for owners to utilize their timeshares for their own personal enjoyment is counter to their purpose.


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 19, 2016)

The rule is set up to prevent people from using their SOs (e.g. SVV, WKV) at 8 months to reserve at another resort (WKORV/N) - which is/was happening. As mentioned - we met a couple at WKORV hot tub bragging how they bought a bunch of SVV resale and using to pickup WKORV/N and rent.  There was also a time here on TUG where this was being actively advised (incorrectly) and used as a business model  - there is a thread about this in stickies where this conversation started.

Allowing people to use SOs to rent out other resorts reduces the ability for people to use their SOs legitimately to stay at other resorts (the 2nd pillar of VSE/VSN usage).


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## tschwa2 (Dec 19, 2016)

It also protects owners at the higher priced resorts who are renting their own units that can be severely undercut by those with cheaper SO's.  A summer 1 BR premium at Harborside only takes 51,700 SO's.  My MF not including SVN fee is about $1700 for that unit.  There are many owners who pay less and much less for 51,700.


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## DavidnRobin (Dec 19, 2016)

tschwa2 said:


> It also protects owners at the higher priced resorts who are renting their own units that can be severely undercut by those with cheaper SO's.  A summer 1 BR premium at Harborside only takes 51,700 SO's.  My MF not including SVN fee is about $1700 for that unit.  There are many owners who pay less and much less for 51,700.



^^^^ this as well ^^^^
I gave SVO/SVN a suggestion - just state it clearly on reservation confirmation.
Guess that was too simple.


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