# Renting Wyndham Points from Wyndham



## rrlongwell (Mar 20, 2012)

Saw a interesting post on a Platium VIP Member having 12,xxx points left over that he/she would rent to someone and, in turn, he/she would rent a sufficient number of points from Wyndham to complete the reservation.  

This specific path sense of what a Sales Rep that was trying to convince me that if I bought a Presidential Reserve deed, then I would not need to ever buy another timeshare again.  This is what he would have been referring to, except a new timeshare purchase would not be needed, it would just be the program made referrence to above.  

Just got off the phone with Wyndham.  This definately appears to be the details of how it is done (no new purchase required or needed).  Here is an example of how it might work.

1.  Book out all but 50 or so points from the current use year.
2.  Reserve a very high points value prime season timeshare (i.e. a 2 Bedroom Presidential at Wyndham Vacation Resorts Royal Garden at Waikiki for 500,000 points).
3.  Rent a sufficient number of points from Wyndham to complete the reservation.
4.  Cancel the reservation (Wyndham said under no circumstances would monatary refunds be made) the points go into the current year use year as cancelled points.
5.  Wyndham advised this can be done as often as someone wants to during the course of a year.

The bottom line apparently is that a VIP Platium member has a method of renting as many points as they want under the 60 day out period and effectivly pay $4 dollars per thousand points.  The actual rental rate per thousand would be $8 per thousand.  Applying the VIP Plantium Discount rate to the actual units used would make the effective rate at step 1 as $4 dollars per thousand points.  That is before effect is given to any free upgrades that may kick in.  That would further reduce the effective rate per thousand to well under the $4 dollars per thousand points in some cases.

Has anyone actual book using rented points then cancelled them?  If so, where did the cancelled rented points actually end up?


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## Ridewithme38 (Mar 20, 2012)

rrlongwell said:


> Saw a interesting post on a Platium VIP Member having 12,xxx points left over that he/she would rent to someone and, in turn, he/she would rent a sufficient number of points from Wyndham to complete the reservation.
> 
> This specific path made since of what a Sales Rep that was trying to convince me that if I bought a Presidential Reserve deed, then I would not need to ever buy another timeshare again.  This is what he would have been referring to, except a new timeshare purchase would not be needed, it just the program made referrence to above.
> 
> ...



Then will you rent me points for $5 per 1,000?


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## bnoble (Mar 20, 2012)

> Wyndham advised this can be done as often as someone wants to during the course of a year.


Not quite.  See the directory on pages 278-279: you can rent a total up to the number of points you own.  Also, the "phantom" reservation you are booking must be within the Express window (so, within the next 90 days), else you can only rent enough to complete a portion of the last night's stay.  But, if you cancel the "phantom" reservation, the points used will be returned to your account as Cancel Points with a Use Year equal to the latest UY that covers the check-in day of the reservation.


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## rrlongwell (Mar 20, 2012)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Then will you rent me points for $5 per 1,000?



No, however, I am sure that a number of VIP Platium members might at $7 dollars per thousand.  I thinks they operate under some conception that they should get a reasonable profit. You might want to check the other thread on RCI discounts now running and your RCI Account for Last Call vacation, it appears RCI may be all but giving some of the timeshares away for a very low cash price for a weeks use.  I did not do the math, but that may come out to meeting or beating your price target.


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## jjmanthei05 (Mar 20, 2012)

rrlongwell said:


> Saw a interesting post on a Platium VIP Member having 12,xxx points left over that he/she would rent to someone and, in turn, he/she would rent a sufficient number of points from Wyndham to complete the reservation.
> 
> This specific path made since of what a Sales Rep that was trying to convince me that if I bought a Presidential Reserve deed, then I would not need to ever buy another timeshare again.  This is what he would have been referring to, except a new timeshare purchase would not be needed, it would just be the program made referrence to above.
> 
> ...



I thought you were only allowed to rent the number of points you own. So for example if you own 1 million, you would only be able to rent an additional million points. 

this is what the online directory says...
_*The amount of points you may rent each calendar year is limited to the amount of points you receive for your annual ownership allocation.
For example, if you receive 154,000 points each Use Year, you may rent up to 154,000 points each calendar year.

Bonus Points and PIC Plus Points are not considered part of this total.

Points are rented at the time the reservation is confirmed.

Rental fees are non-refundable.

When a reservation using Rented Points is cancelled, these points are returned to your account as Cancelled Reservation Points.*_



It seems like it is feasible to do as long as you don't try and more than double your points but who knows maybe this is a glitch in the system that they can't actually monitor how many points you rent during the year. Also $8/k is higher than any resort I know of in the system. So if you are doing this consistently, it is still more cost effective for you to buy a resale deed than rent points from them. 

Jason


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## jjmanthei05 (Mar 20, 2012)

bnoble said:


> Not quite.  See the directory on pages 278-279: you can rent a total up to the number of points you own.  Also, the "phantom" reservation you are booking must be within the Express window (so, within the next 90 days), else you can only rent enough to complete a portion of the last night's stay.  But, if you cancel the "phantom" reservation, the points used will be returned to your account as Cancel Points with a Use Year equal to the latest UY that covers the check-in day of the reservation.



You got to it before me... 

Jason


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## bnoble (Mar 20, 2012)

Ah, but you made the most important observation:



> Also $8/k is higher than any resort I know of in the system. So if you are doing this consistently, it is still more cost effective for you to buy a resale deed than rent points from them.


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## am1 (Mar 20, 2012)

They have a way to check to see how many points you have used after the fact.      
If you exceed your limit then they may cancel reservations and refund your money.  That was at $5/k at $8/k they may not care.

In time $8/k will  be a good price.


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## Sandy VDH (Mar 20, 2012)

But is used to be $5/K and they just increased it to 8.  So when MFs get to 8 they will just up the price again.


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## am1 (Mar 20, 2012)

Sandy Lovell said:


> But is used to be $5/K and they just increased it to 8.  So when MFs get to 8 they will just up the price again.



It was increased 2 years ago.  There is a time where it will be better than buying more points.


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## Sandi Bo (Mar 20, 2012)

This has worked well for me but my situation is not the norm.  I manage my Dad's account and supplementing with resale is not an option. 

I certainly agree the better way to go, if you were doing this as a matter of practice, would be to purchase resale.  Apples to Apples -- $5.5/1000 in maintenance vs $8/1000 rented points.

The conversion of $8/1000 to $4/1000 is deceptive. It's $4/1000 because of the 50% discount within 60 days. Those are the paths the sales people like to take us down, IMO. You start trying to figure out true point value when factoring in discounts and free upgrades and it becomes near impossible to figure out a price per thousand.

But yes, a nice perk to be able to use the rented points when it makes sense.


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## jjmanthei05 (Mar 21, 2012)

Sandi Bo said:


> This has worked well for me but my situation is not the norm.  I manage my Dad's account and supplementing with resale is not an option.
> 
> I certainly agree the better way to go, if you were doing this as a matter of practice, would be to purchase resale.  Apples to Apples -- $5.5/1000 in maintenance vs $8/1000 rented points.
> 
> ...



For almost everyone this doesn't make sense because it will usually be cheaper to pool or borrow future points than to pay $8/k especially if it is a once in a while thing. If you are consistently borrowing future year points then you know you need more like we found out after we bought our first 189,000 and are now up to 532,000.

As for figuring out your price per thousand, at the end of the year add up full point values for all the reservations you booked (and kept). Then divide that by what you paid in mf and any extra costs you incurred (res credits, hk credits, and rented point) and you will get your average cost per thousand points. 

Jason


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## Sandy VDH (Mar 21, 2012)

I agree the $4/K pricing is very misleading.  It is STILL $8/K.  It is the points that have been cut in half NOT the cost of renting them. 

So you either pay $4/K for full points OR get half the points at $8/K.  You don't get to count it twice, like BOTH half the points and rent for $4/K, but that is how sales is trying to position it.


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## rrlongwell (Mar 21, 2012)

Sandy Lovell said:


> I agree the $4/K pricing is very misleading.  It is STILL $8/K.  It is the points that have been cut in half NOT the cost of renting them.
> 
> So you either pay $4/K for full points OR get half the points at $8/K.  You don't get to count it twice, like BOTH half the points and rent for $4/K, but that is how sales is trying to position it.



I would not think anyone would rent Wyndham reservations at $4 per thousand points or less that is in the rental business for a profit.  I agree with the thought that was presented above on how to calculate, for information purposes, how to figure out the effective rate per thousand.  However, this would be a moving target because of the uncertainty of getting upgrades for future predicative value.


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## Sandi Bo (Mar 22, 2012)

It's nice to have the option. I thought I was done, done, done 2012 points, then:
-- Dad decided he would travel in March after all (after I had used everything up). 
-- Friends ended up with late breaking travel plans and I was able to book rooms for them (they were ecstatic with what they got for $8/1000)
-- No snow at Bentley Brook in March, sister cancelled plans. Nice to have the option to cancel last minute, but ended up with points that expired 3/31/2012. Nice to be able to pad with rented points to round out a reservation
-- I have used all of our 2013 points, although I'll recover some later when I cancel and rebook (family vacations and rentals to cover maint. fees)
-- I am saving every last stinking 2014 point so we can ARP for summer 2013 family vacation (thus I did not want to borrow any, although that was an option)

So plan, plan, plan and then the unexpected happens. The rented points gave me some needed flexibility.

I am just dabbling in rented points now and I have found they have purpose for my situations. I totally agree though, that if it becomes habit, a resale purchase would make more sense.  (And thanks Jason, I will figure out my price per thousand). 

Renting online, the price is $8/1000. If you call into Wyndham it is $10/1000.


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## Sleep2222 (Mar 25, 2012)

*Question*

I am basically out of points this year (18,000) left.  I would like to rent a week around Christmas, would have to borrow points.  I understand that I can't borrow until 3 months out, in which case the location and size I would like may be gone.  

Would this work:  If I borrow points and make a reservation within three months from today, cancel that reservation and then use the cancelled points to make the Christmas reservation.  Does that work.  I understand the cancelled, borrowed points go into my current use year.  Can I then use then for anything?

If not, is there any other way around this?

Thanks


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## Sandi Bo (Mar 25, 2012)

Yes, that would work.  The cancelled points go back to the use year of the cancelled reservation.

However, see other posts above. If you can borrow from next year, that may be a better choice. 

The idea is the same (whether renting or borrowing). Reserve something in the next 3 months using borrowed points from your next use year (or rent the points), cancel the reservation, and then they will be available for your Christmas reservation. (I am assuming your use year ends Dec 31 or March 31).

I have chosen to rent over borrow because I want to keep my points from the next use year to ARP. I still cringe when I pay the $8/k, but I think it's the right thing for me.

And I suggest you keep track of your points and take screen shots. I have seen some odd behavior with the cancelled points/use years with points not going where they should.  For example, my use year ends March 31, 2013, but points went into a use year ending Dec 31, 2012.  Since I was going to use them before Dec 31 it didn't matter, otherwise I would have needed to call to get the points adjusted.


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## Sleep2222 (Mar 25, 2012)

*thanks*

Thanks,
I also guess there is something where you can pay $39 and have next years points available without 'borrowing' or renting.  I think the only difference is that you can bring all your points forward and have them available for three years.  Not sure why someone would pay the 39 when they could borrow for free.  Any experience with this?


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## learnalot (Mar 25, 2012)

Sleep2222 said:


> Thanks,
> I also guess there is something where you can pay $39 and have next years points available without 'borrowing' or renting.  I think the only difference is that you can bring all your points forward and have them available for three years.  Not sure why someone would pay the 39 when they could borrow for free.  Any experience with this?



Because you can only borrow for free for reservations in the next 90 days.  Also, pooling up front avoids orphaned points at year end.  Don't pool if you need to make an ARP reservation though because pooled points must be used in the standard reservation window (10 months).


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## ronparise (Mar 25, 2012)

Sleep2222 said:


> Thanks,
> I also guess there is something where you can pay $39 and have next years points available without 'borrowing' or renting.  I think the only difference is that you can bring all your points forward and have them available for three years.  Not sure why someone would pay the 39 when they could borrow for free.  Any experience with this?



You cant just borrow whenever you feel like it, you have to be within 90 days of check in...So I credit pool my points routinely  in these two situations

1)To avoid a  use or or lose it situation at the end of my use year I have been caught at the end of the year with a few odd points left over. Sure i could borrow from next year and go somewhere at the end of the year, but I would be going not because I want to, but just to use up the points. A trip like that forced upon me is a bigger waste, I think, than just letting the points expire. So now after that experience of seeing a few points expire worthless, I credit pool all my points before the year begins and they are good for 3 years; no wasted trips or points

2)The second reason and the real reason I use the credit pool is that I have  been using more points than I own. Im buying more, but I have been using them faster than Im buying.  In Dec of 2011 I had already used all of my 2011, and my 2012 and my 2013 points...So in Jan of 2012 I pooled all of my 2014 points...and thats what Im using now


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