# [ 2017 ] How to compare point systems?



## Tugjb

I like the idea of a points based timeshare system but it is hard to determine how many points/credits are needed for one week in a one bedroom. Each system is different. And then it gets more confusion when you look at exchanging with RCI or II. Can anyone help by directing me to some source to help me understand how to figure this out?  I am hoping one or more members can help. Each salesperson I chat with seems to tell a different story.  Between Marriott, Wyndham, Diamond, Hilton, etc, there doesn't seem to be a common thread.


*admin edit - adding the link to the new chart we are creating based on the discussion in this thread!  please chime in with your suggestions or information to add to the chart!

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare-system-comparison-chart.html


----------



## Passepartout

There is no correlation between the various point systems. Or (as far as I can tell) any relation between points and dollars. It would be nice, but there are so many variables (season, view, age or time since refurb, location, sq. footage, etc.) that any number stated would have so many exemptions that it becomes meaningless. The best I can figure is to settle on one system for it's quality, locations, management, etc, then after visiting a few of their resorts you can get an idea of what sort of 'currency value' you assign it's points.

Fwiw, in RCI Points, I personally place a value on a 1 bedroom at around 30k points- but may adjust that up or down a bit with the variables noted above.

Jim


----------



## WalnutBaron

Tugjb said:


> I like the idea of a points based timeshare system but it is hard to determine how many points/credits are needed for one week in a one bedroom. Each system is different. And then it gets more confusion when you look at exchanging with RCI or II. Can anyone help by directing me to some source to help me understand how to figure this out?  I am hoping one or more members can help. Each salesperson I chat with seems to tell a different story.  Between Marriott, Wyndham, Diamond, Hilton, etc, there doesn't seem to be a common thread.



You're right. There is no common thread. Each system "scores" its properties, time of year, weekend days vs. weekday days, and many other variables differently. The only real way to compare is by carefully studying each system and the points assigned to each property and interval. One possible way to get some idea is to pick a location you think you'd like to visit often (Florida Keys, Hawaii, Palm Springs, etc.) and then look at properties offered by as many of the points system purveyors as you can find. Go to the TUG Reviews to see how TUGgers rate the properties so that you can have some idea that you're comparing apples to apples, and then look at how many points each system charges for us of comparable intervals at those properties. It's a lot of work, but it's probably the best way to understand the true cost of comparable intervals at the various systems.


----------



## Jan M.

It would be very helpful if you could provide some information to help us help you.

Which resort system offers the most resorts in areas that you are likely to visit or close enough for you to drive to? Is there a particular vacation experience that you are primarily interested in like beaches, ski areas, mountains for hiking, etc.?

If you have talked to that many sales people then I'm assuming you've done sales presentations at various resorts. Are there any systems you toured that you would rule out based on what you saw when you toured or any that particularly impressed you? Have you stayed at any of the resorts in any of the systems you mentioned?

If you can't think of a better location I suggest using Orlando. Start a thread in each system's forum asking how many points are needed for the same week in the same unit size at the resorts in that area. Next you need to get some idea of how many points you need to have and what you will likely have to pay to get that many points. Lastly you need to also have some idea of what the maintenance fees are on that many points. That last step can be a little more difficult because for systems like Wyndham the maintenance fees per point are based on where you are deeded at, your home resort. I don't know if the other systems are like that or not.

Based on what I've read in the threads I would suggest you not look at resorts in Mexico at this time! 

Maybe there is one of us here on TUG that owns in most of the different systems and can make some recommendations.


----------



## Tugjb

Jan M. said:


> It would be very helpful if you could provide some information to help us help you.
> 
> Which resort system offers the most resorts in areas that you are likely to visit or close enough for you to drive to? Is there a particular vacation experience that you are primarily interested in like beaches, ski areas, mountains for hiking, etc.?
> 
> If you have talked to that many sales people then I'm assuming you've done sales presentations at various resorts. Are there any systems you toured that you would rule out based on what you saw when you toured or any that particularly impressed you? Have you stayed at any of the resorts in any of the systems you mentioned?
> 
> If you can't think of a better location I suggest using Orlando. Start a thread in each system's forum asking how many points are needed for the same week in the same unit size at the resorts in that area. Next you need to get some idea of how many points you need to have and what you will likely have to pay to get that many points. Lastly you need to also have some idea of what the maintenance fees are on that many points. That last step can be a little more difficult because for systems like Wyndham the maintenance fees per point are based on where you are deeded at, your home resort. I don't know if the other systems are like that or not.
> 
> Based on what I've read in the threads I would suggest you not look at resorts in Mexico at this time!
> 
> Maybe there is one of us here on TUG that owns in most of the different systems and can make some recommendations.



Thanks for the direction Jan.  I will avoid buying anything in Mexico.  But I am trying to get a handle on POINTS.  How many Marriott points does it take for an average week in a 1 bedroom?  Hyatt?  Diamond?  Wyndham?  WorldMark? (credit to confuse things more).  There must be someplace or someone who has done the comparisons before.  I have been to Diamond and to Shell (Wyndham).


----------



## Tugjb

WalnutBaron said:


> You're right. There is no common thread. Each system "scores" its properties, time of year, weekend days vs. weekday days, and many other variables differently. The only real way to compare is by carefully studying each system and the points assigned to each property and interval. One possible way to get some idea is to pick a location you think you'd like to visit often (Florida Keys, Hawaii, Palm Springs, etc.) and then look at properties offered by as many of the points system purveyors as you can find. Go to the TUG Reviews to see how TUGgers rate the properties so that you can have some idea that you're comparing apples to apples, and then look at how many points each system charges for us of comparable intervals at those properties. It's a lot of work, but it's probably the best way to understand the true cost of comparable intervals at the various systems.



Guess I was looking for a short cut.  I see you own at Hyatt.  Limited number of properties but very nice.  What does an AVERAGE week in a one bedroom cost in points with Hyatt?  Is it hard to book in the Hyatt system since their inventory is low?  Does it cost the same number of points in their Exchange program?  Thanks for the response.


----------



## GT75

For Hilton Grand Vacations Club (HGVC) the base number of points for 1-BD platinum season is 4,800 points and 1-BD plus is 6,200 points.     This to me is the standard point structure.     Some of the newer properties have increased point requirements.


----------



## WalnutBaron

Tugjb said:


> Guess I was looking for a short cut.  I see you own at Hyatt.  Limited number of properties but very nice.  What does an AVERAGE week in a one bedroom cost in points with Hyatt?  Is it hard to book in the Hyatt system since their inventory is low?  Does it cost the same number of points in their Exchange program?  Thanks for the response.



Not sure what an "average" week would be, but you should be able to get a week during non-peak season for about 1100 points. I've found that--as long as I plan ahead and am flexible with dates--I can usually find just about anything I'm looking for at all but Hyatt Ka'anapali and Aspen (unless I'm looking for Aspen during shoulder seasons). Aspen and the two Lake Tahoe properties are very difficult to get during ski season. I'm not sure I agree that inventory is low. It's true that Hyatt is one of the smaller systems, but the resorts and the units are uniformly off-the-charts outstanding.


----------



## GT75

WalnutBaron said:


> Not sure what an "average" week would be



I agree that the question which the OP has asked is really hard to answer, but I think that I understand the intent of the question.     It would be nice to somehow easily compare the different TS point systems.     I know that I am lost if I try to understand a system different than the one which I am in.    I always like it when someone who owns more than 1 or 2 tries to compare the different systems.

My suggestion would be to somehow narrow down the search somehow.    I would maybe approach it from what are the requirements such as travel/vacation location(s), travel time, party size, ect.


----------



## WinniWoman

I probably shouldn't comment on points systems as I am a weeks owner. I do know a lot of people like the points systems of RCI and Wyndham.

I do not like the RCI points system because you are essentially locked into using RCI - forever. That means paying the membership fee, the increasing exchange fees etc. every time you want to go somewhere, rather than just showing up for your week and your unit at your favorite resort- no exchange company membership fee or exchange fees and no surprises.


----------



## HudsHut

Tugjb said:


> I like the idea of a points based timeshare system but it is hard to determine how many points/credits are needed for one week in a one bedroom.



WorldMark
Week in 1 bedroom is generally 8,000 - 13,000 credits,
Week in 2 bedroom is generally 10,000 - 16,000 credits

Credits required for each resort can be found here. Click on https://www.worldmarktheclub.com/resorts/


----------



## geist1223

Wyndham Club Pass which is an internal Exchange Program between Worldmark and Wyndham Points does allow a comparison. Approximately 13 Wyndham Points = 1 Worldmark Point. I am a Worldmark Member. If I want to book a Wyndham Resort through Wyndham Pass that would cost a Wyndham Member 260,000 Wyndham Points it will cost me 20,000 Worldmark Points plus the $99 Exchange Fee. Ron P has previously said this is still a deal in some ways because my MF's to Worldmark for those 20,000 Points is probably less than MF's that Wyndham Member pays on the 260,000 Points. That same Reservation through RCI would cost me 10,000 Worldmark Points but with a higher Exchange Fee.


----------



## easyrider

Regarding Worldmark points, most reservations also require a house keeping token worth $54 for a studio to $132 for a 3 bedroom Presidential.

The majority of two bedroom Worldmark inventory in RED season require 10,000 points per week and a house keeping token. The majority of one bedroom Worldmark inventory in RED season require 8000 points and a house keeping token.

Each Worldmark reservation may be subject to an occupancy tax depending on location.

So for a two bedroom Worldmark unit @ 10,000 points the cost is $752.43 for the points and one house keeping token, $95 for a house keeping token if you don't have one and the occupancy tax.

Link to taxes, house keeping fee and points cost below.
https://www.worldmarktheclub.com/news/2015_housekeeping_and_bonus_time_fees.shtml
https://www.worldmarktheclub.com/education/pdfs/Tax_Information.pdf
https://www.worldmarktheclub.com/education/pdfs/WorldMark_Dues_Schedule.pdf

Bill


----------



## DAman

geist1223 said:


> Wyndham Club Pass which is an internal Exchange Program between Worldmark and Wyndham Points does allow a comparison. Approximately 13 Wyndham Points = 1 Worldmark Point. I am a Worldmark Member. If I want to book a Wyndham Resort through Wyndham Pass that would cost a Wyndham Member 260,000 Wyndham Points it will cost me 20,000 Worldmark Points plus the $99 Exchange Fee. Ron P has previously said this is still a deal in some ways because my MF's to Worldmark for those 20,000 Points is probably less than MF's that Wyndham Member pays on the 260,000 Points. That same Reservation through RCI would cost me 10,000 Worldmark Points but with a higher Exchange Fee.



From Worldmark to Wyndham using this internal exchange the WM credits have to be developer purchased to exchange.  

This is of no value to those who purchased WM resale.  For me it would be of no value anyway because I use all my WM credits to stay at WM's.


----------



## sue1947

easyrider said:


> Regarding Worldmark points, most reservations also require a house keeping token worth $54 for a studio to $132 for a 3 bedroom Presidential.
> 
> Bill



The link provided is for 2015 HK.  The current HK fees are from $60 to $170 per unit depending on size.


----------



## easyrider

Regarding the Worldmark reservations, the buy in isn't included. These contracts seem to be selling for about 40 cents a point. A 10,000 point contract could cost about $4000 + transfer costs when buying resale.


----------



## Sandy VDH

What to know what most Wyndham resorts are in points ..... Here is the latest directory.  Yes I know it is 2014-15 but they haven't issued a new one since then.  There are a few new resorts, but the point chart is only available online....

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/plus_membersdirectory1415/index.php


----------



## Sandy VDH

geist1223 said:


> Wyndham Club Pass which is an internal Exchange Program between Worldmark and Wyndham Points does allow a comparison. Approximately 13 Wyndham Points = 1 Worldmark Point.



Points can fluctuate.  I inquired about Club pass for WM Marble Falls, TX.  2 BR Red season WM is 12500 for a 2 BR for a week.  It is 206000 Wyndham points for the same timeframe. 

So that is exchange is 16.5 to 1.  I guess some transactions might be a better value than others.


----------



## easyrider

Sandy VDH said:


> Points can fluctuate.  I inquired about Club pass for WM Marble Falls, TX.  2 BR Red season WM is 12500 for a 2 BR for a week.  It is 206000 Wyndham points for the same timeframe.
> 
> So that is exchange is 16.5 to 1.  I guess some transactions might be a better value than others.



With Worldmark the cost is 10,000 points for a two bedroom unit plus a housekeeping token for a dollar cost of about $755 in red season. What do you think is the cost of a two bedroom Wyndham for a two bedroom unit in red season ? 

Bill


----------



## Sandy VDH

easyrider said:


> With Worldmark the cost is 10,000 points for a two bedroom unit plus a housekeeping token for a dollar cost of about $755 in red season. What do you think is the cost of a two bedroom Wyndham for a two bedroom unit in red season ?
> 
> Bill



Are you saying the Marble Falls in only 10,000 points.  Where does that come from. This is what I found on the WM website....


----------



## easyrider

Sandy VDH said:


> Are you saying the Marble Falls in only 10,000 points.  Where does that come from. This is what I found on the WM website....
> View attachment 3848



If you look at the WM gallery and look at the point requirements you would find most WM two bedroom units take 10,000 points in red season. The WM inventory that requires more points are the Wyndham acquisitions as developer for Worldmark .

Geez Sandy, if you don't know you don't know. I was wanting to figure out the dollar cost for a two bedroom unit in red season with Wyndham points. How does this WM link help ?
It doesn't.

Bill


----------



## Sandy VDH

easyrider said:


> Geez Sandy, if you don't know you don't know. I was wanting to figure out the dollar cost for a two bedroom unit in red season with Wyndham points.
> Bill



Well Bill since I don't own Worldmark so I was NOT aware that MOST 2 BRs in red season were 10K. I know about Wyndham and what WM is available via Wyndham.  I do not know WM point values within the WM system.  I assumed you had a different point chart somehow, one that I had NO access to.  I was just asking for clarification. This resort is a mystery on the Wyndham side, as no one can provide any points information.  There answer is book something and you will figure out how many points it is. Thanks Wyndham for no information.  Just looking for clarity on points Bill, not costs.


----------



## rhonda

Tugjb said:


> I like the idea of a points based timeshare system but it is hard to determine how many points/credits are needed for one week in a one bedroom. Each system is different. And then it gets more confusion when you look at exchanging with RCI or II. Can anyone help by directing me to some source to help me understand how to figure this out?  I am hoping one or more members can help. Each salesperson I chat with seems to tell a different story.  Between Marriott, Wyndham, Diamond, Hilton, etc, there doesn't seem to be a common thread.


You are correct, there is no common thread between/across different point systems.  ;-)
Once upon a time, many years ago, TUG had an article comparing the various systems using a matrix.  It was a grand resource but required great effort to maintain as things changed over time.

To me, the big areas to compare across point systems:

Dues per "typical reservation" (how much will that "generic 1BR week" cost?).  Are dues "flat rate per point" or tiered?  Are there dues advantages to certain ownership levels?
Other fees charged per reservation:  Reservation Fee?  Housekeeping?  TOT? etc?
Home resort: yes or no?  How does this work across the set of destinations that interest you most?
Banking / Borrowing options and costs?
Reservation Cancellation policy?
Reservation rules/restrictions?  Such as ... minimum/maximum number of nights required per reservation?  how early/late can one book?  arrive on any day of the week or only Fri/Sat/Sun?  can a 7-night stay span more than one resort?  can one book multiple units for guests?
Can one book w/out using points?  (Are there ways to purchase points if you are short?  Does the system offer bonus time/cash rentals to the owners?)
Which exchange companies are supported?
How often or under what circumstances may the point-values change across the system?
How are the resorts within the points-system network?  Are they in locations that interest you?  Do they meet your quality standards?  Are the unit sizes a good fit for your family?  (Some resort properties may offer only studio units; others may only offer 2BR?)
Does the points system offer affiliate resorts or an internal exchange system across multiple networks?  Costs involved?
Features restrictions based on retail/resale?  Which features are limited -- do they make a difference to you?
etc.


----------



## easyrider

Sandy VDH said:


> Well Bill since I don't own Worldmark so I was NOT aware that MOST 2 BRs in red season were 10K. I know about Wyndham and what WM is available via Wyndham.  I do not know WM point values within the WM system.  I assumed you had a different point chart somehow, one that I had NO access to.  I was just asking for clarification. This resort is a mystery on the Wyndham side, as no one can provide any points information.  There answer is book something and you will figure out how many points it is. Thanks Wyndham for no information.  Just looking for clarity on points Bill, not costs.



All of the Worldmark by Trendwest (Trendwest developer for WM ) inventory is 10,000 points in red season which is most of the WM resorts. All of the Worldmark by Wyndham ( Wyndham developer for WM since about 2006 )  require more points for smaller units in mostly refurbished hotel units in larger cities. San Diego has Balboa Park and Inn at the Park with 13,500 points for a one bedroom hotel unit. There are some new resorts as well like the WM Aneheim which requires 16,000 points for a two bedroom unit. 

Wyndham as the Worldmark developer has bought more existing inventory in older condos and hotel and doing conversions than actually building resorts. 

With Worldmark you can figure out the points required by looking at the resort galleries. Points cost a little over 7 1/2 cents a point when looking at the mf's.

I have no clue about how much a two bedroom Wyndham costs regarding ownership so I haven't bought any Wyndham yet. I would kind of like to in a way, just to increase my resort footprint but I won't until I figure it out. I can trade into most of the Wyndham with Worldmark anyway.

Bill


----------



## bnoble

Tugjb said:


> I am trying to get a handle on POINTS. How many Marriott points does it take for an average week in a 1 bedroom? Hyatt? Diamond? Wyndham? WorldMark? (credit to confuse things more).



I know you want the answer to this question, but it is the wrong question to ask. There isn't an obvious way to directly compare points/credits in one system vs. points/credits in another---except by converting everything to dollars. And even then, I believe it's the wrong way to think about it.

Here's what I think is the right way to think about it. First, look for a system that has resorts that you want to visit. It may be the case that there is really only one system that has an appealing set of resorts. If that's where you end up, then the question is simple: Figure out which resorts/unit sizes/seasons you are most likely to visit. Given that, what are the one-time and recurring costs to buy into the system, and are those costs you are comfortable paying?

If there are more than one system that seems to fit your vacation plans, only then should you worry about comparing them. And, that decision isn't going to be driven only by dollars, it will also be driven by quality. That's because, in general, the nicer resorts cost more to buy (even resale) and maintain. After all, this is as much a lifestyle decision as a financial one.


----------



## TUGBrian

I found this updating the advice section last night...looks like it was last updated in 2013....maybe we can expand on it in this thread?  ill be happy to update it!

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/hotel_based_timeshare_comparison.html


----------



## Sandy VDH

tugjb

I will comment on where points programs I know fall.  Others can add Marriott, Hyatt, and others where they see fit.

There are *4 types of points systems AFAIK.* They don't really affect how points are used in regular season usage, except for Home week usage, but they do vary on how MF/point are determined.

*Pure Points * - this is like the Worldmark system, (parts of the Wyndham are now sold this way and they belong to *Club Wyndham Access (CWA)*) .  Worldmark was set up where only credits are sold and MF is the same for every credit in the system.  Some WM memberships have an added fee for a feature called Travelshare.

*Resort Based Points * - Parts of Wyndham properties are sold like this - it is like pure points, in that you own an UDI - UnDivided Interest in Points currency.  Since your MFs are resort specific you belong to the *Club Wyndham Select (CWS)* type of membership.  Your MF are based on WHERE points are owned. However MFs are NOT standard across the entire system, they are RESORT SPECIFIC.  There are variations, some resorts have better MF/point costs. I believe DVC is also like this.

*Resort Based Size/Season Points * - this is what Hilton Grand Vacation system is (Legacy parts of Wyndham is this way, and there is it called Converted Fixed/Float Weeks, and they are also part of the CWS type of membership).  They are all sold as fixed or floating weeks for a given size and season of unit.  MFs at a property are the same for all the same size units regardless of season.  However points are awarded by Season and Unit type owned.  So MF per point vary.  Seasons are Platinum, Gold, Silver and Bronze in HGVC.  It is better to own Platinum as your MF/point are the lowest possible.  Bronze week ownership could result in MFs/point that are 4 times higher than a Platinum week in the same size unit.

*Hybrid Points* - Wyndham is the king of hybrids as they have all of the 3 types above in one system. Hybrids could be any combination of the above choices.  CWA is now sold as a *Pure Points* where there is a common MF/point.  (It is made up of converting older resort inventory obtained and converted to CWA and MFs are just a blend across all ownership deposited into CWA.)  Wyndham has CWS that is either *Resort Based Points* (UDI points) OR *Resort Based Size/Season* *Points* which is essentially converted fixed/floating weeks in points).  Club Wyndham Presidential Reserve and Club Margaritaville are also *Resort Based Points* CWS, but these are also a club within the Wyndham Club.  They get special perks at their club within a club that the rest of club wyndham has access to in different time increments, if at all.

Since you can buy any of the parts of Wyndham today (and also UNCONVERTED FIXED and FLOATING weeks, that while Wyndham, they are NOT wyndham points and are usually too expensive to convert), it is very important to know what type you are buying if you are interested in obtaining Wyndham points.

Here is Wyndham's definition of the part that make up Wyndham :
Four products have access to the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus exchange program, each with unique attributes that appeal to different types of owners.

CLUB WYNDHAM® Select offers members early booking options at their "home resort".
CLUB WYNDHAM® Access provides members the flexibility of having more than one "home resort".
CLUB WYNDHAM® Presidential Reserve gives members a chance to enjoy luxurious amenities and early booking options in a Presidential Reserve Suite at their "home resort".
Margaritaville Vacation Club® offers members vacation designed around the laid back, adventurous lifestyle of Jimmy Buffett and the fun of Margaritaville


----------



## Sandy VDH

What you can get will also vary. 

Here is access to point charts....

Worldmark
https://www.worldmarktheclub.com/news/wbwwyndhamclubpasssupplement.pdf

Wyndham
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/plus_membersdirectory1415/index.php

Hilton
https://club.hiltongrandvacations.com/en/resort

Disney
https://disneyvacationclub.disney.go.com/destinations/list/dvc-resorts/

Holiday Inn Club Vacations
https://members.holidayinnclub.com/explore-our-resorts


----------



## rhonda

TUGBrian said:


> I found this updating the advice section last night...looks like it was last updated in 2013....maybe we can expand on it in this thread?  ill be happy to update it!
> 
> http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/hotel_based_timeshare_comparison.html


Brian -- there was a far better comparison doc but it was much older.  Perhaps it still exists in an archive, somewhere?  It included topics such as banking/borrowing, guest cert fees, housekeeping fees, etc.  I'm pretty certain it addressed DVC, Worldmark, Wyndham, and Bluegreen -- perhaps others, too.


----------



## TUGBrian

we can certainly modify/add to this existing one...im certainly game to do so (it needs to be modified to be mobile friendly anyway).

im not sure just comparing the 4 hotel chain developers is really all that big of a deal anymore vs comparing all the major players in the game....the latter being far more useful im sure!

we can just rename it "Timeshare System Comparison Chart" and add them all.


----------



## TUGBrian

first which all should be added, I come up with 9?

Marriott, Hilton, Vistana, Hyatt, Wyndham, Worldmark, Bluegreen, DRI, Disney  any others worth adding that I missed?


----------



## Sandy VDH

I thought it useful to discuss types of systems, important to note on resale what to look for and what if any things are lost as a result of the resale. 

It is hard to compare $$ to units unless you know some of that method that goes into determining your MFs $$.  I did the few that I know of above.  Perhaps the Hyatt, Marriott and Vistana (*wood, whatever it is called now), and others can be added.  Start with the big ones and add the litter ones in comparison.

Wyndham is going through enhancements next weekend, which means changes to what we have been doing as they have implemented new business rules, and some new terminology.  We need the new system in and some time to play with it to comment on some items.


----------



## TUGBrian

I think we could make a useful chart that didnt compare money (or of it did, perhaps it could include the average cost/maint fee of an "entry level" package for each one.


----------



## TUGBrian

just tossed this together quickly as an idea

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare-system-comparison-chart.html

note that vs typing in a giant paragraph describing all the differences between resale/retail...perhaps just a "significant" or "yes" would apply, with a link to a forum thread or advice article that details the differences that exist.


----------



## TUGBrian

added a few more items to it tonight.  any suggestions on any additional rows to add for comparison?


----------



## sue1947

For Worldmark:  there are 90 resorts, it's not deeded and the booking window is 13 months.  
Maintenance fees are based on a formula but probably average about .06/point and a regular 2 BR in high season ranges from 10000-14500 points so the cost for that week would be $600-$870.  If you used the words approximately and average you could probably put together a cost comparison.   However, I don't know if you could do the same with the many variations in some of the other systems.  

Sue


----------



## TUGBrian

added those details to the WM column thanks!


----------



## CO skier

WorldMark is a Club Membership, not a deeded ownership.

The average account size is 15,000 credits, paying $1088.76 mf in 2017 -- $0.0725/credit.

This makes a 2 bedroom high season cost range $725 - $1050.

(The $0.06/credit level is not reached until owning more than 60,000 credits).

Entry level package is 6,000 credits, but a much better level is 10,000 credits for a more efficient mf cost.  Current resale cost is $0.25 - $0.35/credit plus closing costs and $299 transfer fee.


----------



## nuwermj

TUGBrian said:


> added a few more items to it tonight.  any suggestions on any additional rows to add for comparison?



Some data for the Table:

DRI
------
Diamond's points do not exchange in RCI

Average (2br) Maint Fees
6,500 points gets a 2br in the high demand seasons
$1,500 - $1,600 are the MF for 6,500 (US Collection/ Hawaii Collection)

Reservation Window
13 months -- Home Collection
10 months -- everything else



Bluegreen
------------
Bluegreen points do not exchange in II

Reservation Window
11 months

Average (2br) Maint Fees
18,000 point high demand season $1,340


----------



## Sandy VDH

sue1947 said:


> For Worldmark:  there are 90 resorts, it's not deeded and the booking window is 13 months.
> Maintenance fees are based on a formula but probably average about .06/point and a regular 2 BR in high season ranges from 10000-14500 points so the cost for that week would be $600-$870.  If you used the words approximately and average you could probably put together a cost comparison.   However, I don't know if you could do the same with the many variations in some of the other systems.
> 
> Sue



Is the Housekeeping fee considered in that cost, as that is also required to be paid if you have run out of HK credits.  There are a few unlimited HK credits accounts out there still, but those are hard to come by via resales.


----------



## nuwermj

Sandy VDH said:


> There are *4 types of points systems AFAIK.* They don't really affect how points are used in regular season usage, except for Home week usage, but they do vary on how MF/point are determined.
> 
> *Pure Points * - this is like the Worldmark system, (parts of the Wyndham are now sold this way and they belong to *Club Wyndham Access (CWA)*) .  Worldmark was set up where only credits are sold and MF is the same for every credit in the system.  Some WM memberships have an added fee for a feature called Travelshare.



Bluegreen and Diamond Resorts International are pure points system. Deeds to resort intervals are owned by a not-for-profit trust fund (or a members' association). Point owners own a "beneficial interest" in the trust fund which give them use-rights the intervals held in the trust fund.


----------



## sue1947

CO skier said:


> WorldMark is a Club Membership, not a deeded ownership.
> 
> The average account size is 15,000 credits, paying $1088.76 mf in 2017 -- $0.0725/credit.
> 
> This makes a 2 bedroom high season cost range $725 - $1050.
> 
> (The $0.06/credit level is not reached until owning more than 60,000 credits).
> 
> Entry level package is 6,000 credits, but a much better level is 10,000 credits for a more efficient mf cost.  Current resale cost is $0.25 - $0.35/credit plus closing costs and $299 transfer fee.





Sandy VDH said:


> Is the Housekeeping fee considered in that cost, as that is also required to be paid if you have run out of HK credits.  There are a few unlimited HK credits accounts out there still, but those are hard to come by via resales.



Both good points.  The HK fee for a 2 BR is currently $98 and always goes up.  I think we should go with 0.0825/credit to include HK as well.  That would put the 2 BR cost at $825-$1200.  

Sue


----------



## TUGBrian

we can be fairly loose with the averages to make it a legitimate comparison.

im sure there are "ways" to get super cheap 2br's in each system that are not really the norm.

ive added the newest data just now, thank you!


----------



## raygo123

Tugjb said:


> Thanks for the direction Jan.  I will avoid buying anything in Mexico.  But I am trying to get a handle on POINTS.  How many Marriott points does it take for an average week in a 1 bedroom?  Hyatt?  Diamond?  Wyndham?  WorldMark? (credit to confuse things more).  There must be someplace or someone who has done the comparisons before.  I have been to Diamond and to Shell (Wyndham).


Don't completely write off vida, maya palace or sea garden.  I bought and used it toas a PiC with wyndham, if thats what your interested in.  They are a pay on use timeshare so no yearly MFs.

Sent from my SM-J320P using Tapatalk


----------



## geist1223

There are two types of no HK WM Accounts. The first is one of the old grandfathered Accounts from the original days of WM/Club Espirit. These occasionally come up for sale. The second is to have purchased 63,000 or more Developer Points so that the Account is Travelshare Platinum. This second way is a Developer (Wyndham) created Beast and could go away. Also with this second method the no HK Status does not Transfer upon resell. It does transfer if the Account is transferred to certain family mekbers.


----------



## bizaro86

I would add Shell Vacations to the table. They have 24 resorts iirc, and I'd put an average 2 bedroom at approx 2k in MF. It varies greatly within the system. They trade with II, and the differences between retail and resale are minor, mostly relating to poor value uses of points, or some free housekeeping type items if you reach their elite levels.

Also, I would switch the developer differences for Hilton to minor, as resale owners can use the points system. Vistana I would probably call major differences, except for the mandatory properties.


----------



## bankr63

TUGBrian said:


> first which all should be added, I come up with 9?
> 
> Marriott, Hilton, Vistana, Hyatt, Wyndham, Worldmark, Bluegreen, DRI, Disney  any others worth adding that I missed?


Might consider adding HIVC as well.  With 30 resorts in the system now, it could probably stand with the big dogs.  Don't know much about them myself, being a Vistana owner, but I have stayed at one of their properties.


----------



## CO skier

TUGBrian said:


> we can be fairly loose with the averages to make it a legitimate comparison.
> 
> im sure there are "ways" to get super cheap 2br's in each system that are not really the norm.
> 
> ive added the newest data just now, thank you!


To get close to an apples to apples comparison, I would suggest the standard as "One full week stay in a Regular 2 BR in the highest season".  Trying to factor in luxury units or stays of less than a week that require additional housekeeping costs adds too much complexity, imo.

A 10,000 credit WorldMark ownership is below the average size, so an owner at this level pays slightly higher mf compared to average.  A housekeeping token is included for every 10,000 credits owned.  So a WorldMark owner at this level can easily vacation each year in a 10,000 credit/week 2 bedroom unit, for $725 for a full week this year, and never pay for a housekeeping in future years and without using any "tricks".  It meets the standard suggested above.

It is an accurate amount for the low end of the range and illustrates what a bargain WorldMark can be.  If the chart will not be updated each year for changes in maintenance fees, then the $800-$1200 range will be good for the next 2-3 years.

I think most other points systems are designed to include housekeeping with the first full week stay each year.


----------



## TUGBrian

is it reasonable to expect someone buying a run of the mill 10k wm membership is able to reserve a 2br whenever he wants?  or is this one of those situations where "its possible to do, just not regularly"  or you literally have to be logged in right at the opening of the window to have any chance of getting it?

(note im not arguing, im not familiar with WM at all...id just like to avoid future arguments with the numbers!)


----------



## TUGBrian

added hivc and shell

current page:

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare-system-comparison-chart.html


----------



## easyrider

Sandy VDH said:


> Is the Housekeeping fee considered in that cost, as that is also required to be paid if you have run out of HK credits.  There are a few unlimited HK credits accounts out there still, but those are hard to come by via resales.



Yes for all memberships with 6000 point and higher. You receive one housekeeping token for every 10,000 points on your membership starting at 6000 points minimum. I only run out of housekeeping tokens when I rent points for multi reservations and usually purchase the points and housekeeping token together at the Time Share Angels website.

Bill


----------



## TUGBrian

also going to ditch the "range" of averages...and just use a number in the middle to keep things simple and clean

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare-system-comparison-chart.html


----------



## CO skier

TUGBrian said:


> is it reasonable to expect someone buying a run of the mill 10k wm membership is able to reserve a 2br whenever he wants?  or is this one of those situations where "its possible to do, just not regularly"  or you literally have to be logged in right at the opening of the window to have any chance of getting it?


The answer, as with so much in the Timeshare World, is, "It depends."

In this case it depends on where you want to go.  WorldMark is no different than other timeshares; the most popular locations book as soon as the booking window opens.  It is a function of demand, not necessarily points required. Coastal properties, such as Depoe Bay or Marina Dunes, would require the 6 a.m. call.

There are many other premium WorldMark locations that are wide open for the first half of June, 2018 in a standard 2 bedroom unit:

California
- Big Bear
- Palm Springs (only 7,000 credits)
- Solvang

Oregon
- Seaside

Washington
-  Leavenworth
-  Mariner Village (coastal property)

... just as a few examples.  $725 total cost for a summer week at any one of these locations is a killer deal.


----------



## TUGBrian

haha...I figured as much!  we'll get it sorted out eventually!

I should just create a chart that just says "depends" in every entry!   =)


----------



## CO skier

TUGBrian said:


> haha...I figured as much!  we'll get it sorted out eventually!
> 
> I should just create a chart that just says "depends" in every entry!   =)


It goes back to the OP; it is difficult to compare the various systems.

It is a lot like car buying when all you know you want is a four-door model and realizing each car company is different, and they offer so many options it is difficult to compare.


----------



## nuwermj

DRI has "major" differences between resale and developer points. 

Marriott, Wyndham, and (soon) Hyatt have "both" deeded and non-deeded (pure points) ownership.


----------



## TUGBrian

I thought DRI's difference between resale and retail were considered rather minor given the literally zero resale value?

or looking at it the other way, there was no major benefit gained by paying full price from the developer?  (at least for the major us collections)


----------



## TUGBrian

nuwermj said:


> Marriott, Wyndham, and (soon) Hyatt have "both" deeded and non-deeded (pure points) ownership.



updated, thank you!


----------



## TUGBrian

CO skier said:


> It goes back to the OP; it is difficult to compare the various systems.
> 
> It is a lot like car buying when all you know you want is a four-door model and realizing each car company is different, and they offer so many options it is difficult to compare.



added a disclaimer at the bottom urging anyone to come to the forums to do more specific research!


----------



## nuwermj

TUGBrian said:


> I thought DRI's difference between resale and retail were considered rather minor given the literally zero resale value?
> 
> or looking at it the other way, there was no major benefit gained by paying full price from the developer?  (at least for the major us collections)




Resale points are restricted to intervals in the collection (or trust fund). No access to other collections, no access to affiliates, no vacation club benefits (travel benefits, point discounts, etc.). Further, they can't even be used for II exchanges. Developer points offer all these things.


----------



## TUGBrian

I think what ill wind up doing is making the "major/minor" entries linkable to a thread here on the forums that describes the differences between retail and resale...I think that'd be more handy.


----------



## Larry M

TUGBrian said:


> I think what ill wind up doing is making the "major/minor" entries linkable to a thread here on the forums that describes the differences between retail and resale...I think that'd be more handy.



You may wind up simply making a table where every cell is a link to a post or thread. And that may be the best solution.


----------



## TUGBrian

thankfully making changes is super easy!


----------



## CO skier

If you are going to use $1000 for the average maintenance fee for a WorldMark 2 BR, I would suggest $1150 for a Wyndham 2 BR.  This reflects the fact that Club Wyndham is generally a little higher mf than WorldMark.

Club Wyndham has 13 month reservation window for home resorts and 10 months for anywhere in the system.  (This is generally true.  There are, of course, some special exceptions).

WorldMark offers any day of the week check-in/check-out, which is a nice feature.  7 night minimum in Red Season more than 10 months in advance.

Is this getting too detailed?


----------



## TUGBrian

as long as the extra perks etc are listed in the regular forum FAQs and such, i dont think we need to include them in the comparison chart.


----------



## GT75

Brian,
I will give you my opinion of average data for HGVC:

# of resorts - 64
ave (2br) MF: $1000
Deeded
Reservation Windows:   12 mo (home)/9 month
7000 points avg for 2 br platinum season.

Gary


----------



## TUGBrian

updated.


----------



## TUGBrian

I like the idea of adding "average points for 2br stay" as the last item...while we all know there really is no comparison of "points to points" at least itll make that obvious to anyone looking at the chart who might not realize that!

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare-system-comparison-chart.html


----------



## skimeup

I'd like to add the much maligned Royal Holiday points system.  If the OP is interested at all in staying in cities, RH has hotels or suites in many of the desirable cities in the western world - and a few in the remainder.  While much of the terrible stories about RH come from  Mexico, Tuggers report that many of the properties are 9's and 10's.  I bought in to have reasonable prices in cities and am not much interested in beach resorts.
But currently I can stay in at least one property in Manhattan, San Diego area, San Francisco, Paris, Berlin, Rome, Buenos Aires, etc for far less than someone renting a hotel would pay.  And I almost always have a kitchen and access to a one or two bedroom suite.  
Another question to ask re points systems is whether there is an all-inclusive fee or a tax associated with certain properties.  
Also consider exchange value and whether you really want to pay to join II or RCI for about $100 and then pay an exchange fee of $200 to gain use of a property that is not on your list.  
Also read up on Diamond Resorts.  They also have different levels that provide access to just so many properties.  As an owner at Los Abrigados, I was lured to join DRI.  And I discovered that I would lose privileges (window to cancel, for example) and that my MFs went WAY up.  Thankfully, I was one of the lucky ones who got to return my week.
And most importantly, when you decide what system includes the most resorts/hotels you are likely to visit, and provides the best access to those resorts at the best price, remember NEVER to buy from the developer.  Towards the end of the year, when people are looking at their MF bills for 2018, you'll see a bunch of timeshares listed on TUG, eBay, and Redweek - many of which offer to pay transfer fees, escrow fees, etc.


----------



## geist1223

TUGBrian said:


> is it reasonable to expect someone buying a run of the mill 10k wm membership is able to reserve a 2br whenever he wants?  or is this one of those situations where "its possible to do, just not regularly"  or you literally have to be logged in right at the opening of the window to have any chance of getting it?
> 
> (note im not arguing, im not familiar with WM at all...id just like to avoid future arguments with the numbers!)



It depends on where you want to go. Hawaii, Seaside Oregon, and a few others during Spring Break or Summer or Cabo for the Winter you had better be longed at Opening 6am Pacific Time 13 months to the day. Other places more flexibility.


----------



## rhonda

Adding info to the DVC column ...

Reservation window:  11 months (home); 7 months (any)


Developer vs Resale Difference:  Developer points may be used for Disney Cruise Line and Disney Hotel stays; Retail/Resale result in different Membership Cards; Resale are disqualified from the temporary Member Lounge at Epcot and certain "Member Only" events.

Edited to add direct copy/paste from Disney Vacation Club site: "Disney and Concierge Collections options are not available for ownership interests not purchased directly from Disney Vacation Development, Inc. after March 21, 2011, and, effective April 4, 2016, Members who do not purchase an ownership interest directly from Disney Vacation Development Inc. will not have access to Membership Extras."


Average points for 2BR in High Season:  395 based on a full week spanning July 4.


Question of Deed vs RTU:  DVC is recorded as a Deed but acts like an RTU with a 50-year lease.  The 50-yr lease starts at a single-point in time and does not "reset" when the ownership is sold/transferred.  Not all buyers will receive a full 50 years even if buying directly from Disney.
Comment overall:

Some point systems have different dues based on your home resort; others are based around all owners paying the same dues structure.  Should that be noted?  If I were just getting started looking at point systems, I'd want to know that ... ?


"Average points for 2br" should read "Average points for 2br in HIGH season" ?
Thank you, Brian -- great start on the table.


----------



## Sandy VDH

TUGBrian said:


> I like the idea of adding "average points for 2br stay" as the last item...while we all know there really is no comparison of "points to points" at least itll make that obvious to anyone looking at the chart who might not realize that!
> 
> http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare-system-comparison-chart.html



It would be prudent to put that MFs are based on 2017 year dues.  In case it does not get updated every year.


----------



## rhonda

Worldmark "Deed vs RTU" currently shows, "No."  I'm not sure what "No" means?  I see WM as a "Membership in Perpetuity" (more "deed-like" than RTU as it lacks an expiration date).


----------



## CO skier

rhonda said:


> Worldmark "Deed vs RTU" currently shows, "No."  I'm not sure what "No" means?  I see WM as a "Membership in Perpetuity" (more "deed-like" than RTU as it lacks an expiration date).


It is really both -- a Right to Use in Perpetuity.  No member name appears on any WorldMark deed.  It is definitely not deeded ownership.

This is how Club Membership is defined in the Governing Documents:

*3.3 Membership. A Membership in the Club is a vacation license which constitutes only (a) a right to use and occupy a Unit during the Member's Vacation Credit Use or Bonus Time, (b) a nonexclusive license to use, enjoy and occupy the Property and recreational facilities appurtenant thereto during Member's Vacation Credit Use or Bonus Time, (c) voting rights in the Club as described in the Bylaws, and (d) participation in the corporate ownership of the real estate and other assets of the Club.


However, a Membership does not include any title or direct interest in the Property by any individual member of the Club, or any recourse against the Property or any other property owned or operated by the Club.*


Right To Use (RTU) does carry connotations of an end date to the membership, so I do not know what should go in the "Deed or RTU" row.

For usage purposes, "Deeded" versus "RTU in Perpetuity" does not matter much.  "Deeded" generally just means it is more complicated and lengthier to transfer ownership, because a county recorded deed is involved.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Wyndham over 100 direct resorts, another 30 more is you add associates/affilaites, but you DON'T count all the hotel options that you can book online, plus Club Pass options (which have some duplicate as there are shared Resorts with BOTH Wyndham and Worldmark have separate inventory) has another 75 resorts.  So Wyndham is closer to 200.

So I think the numbers should be higher.  For Wyndham and I assume there is a WM option of Club Pass that gives them access to some of the Wyndham they don't have direct access to.


Don't know what others used to calculate cost of Wyndham 2 BR but I would guess that average 2 BR in Prime season is 190-200K range.  Older resorts were all standard 154K but none of the newer resorts from the last 10 years are that point value.


----------



## CO skier

Sandy VDH said:


> Wyndham over 100 direct resorts, another 30 more is you add associates/affilaites, but you DON'T count all the hotel options that you can book online, plus Club Pass options (which have some duplicate as there are shared Resorts with BOTH Wyndham and Worldmark have separate inventory) has another 75 resorts.  So Wyndham is closer to 200.
> 
> So I think the numbers should be higher.  For Wyndham and I assume there is a WM option of Club Pass that gives them access to some of the Wyndham they don't have direct access to.


I would think the Timeshare System Comparison Chart is intended to inform potential resale buyers.  Resale buyers in Club Wyndham and WorldMark do not have access to Club Pass and most if not all associate/affiliate resorts, so the number of resorts open for resale buyers to use is, I think, the best number to use.


----------



## Sandy VDH

CO skier said:


> I would think the Timeshare System Comparison Chart is intended to inform potential resale buyers.  Resale buyers in Club Wyndham and WorldMark do not have access to Club Pass and most if not all associate/affiliate resorts, so the number of resorts open for resale buyers to use is, I think, the best number to use.



Good point about Club Pass, wasn't thinking that it was not accessible by resale points.

Well that would make wyndham still 130 not 90


----------



## CO skier

Sandy VDH said:


> Good point about Club Pass, wasn't thinking that it was not accessible by resale points.
> 
> Well that would make wyndham still 130 not 90


">100" would cover all bases and still put Wyndham in first place on the list.


----------



## TUGBrian

rhonda said:


> Adding info to the DVC column ...
> 
> Reservation window:  11 months (home); 7 months (any)
> 
> 
> Developer vs Resale Difference:  Developer points may be used for Disney Cruise Line and Disney Hotel stays; Retail/Resale result in different Membership Cards; Resale are disqualified from the temporary Member Lounge at Epcot and certain "Member Only" events.
> 
> Edited to add direct copy/paste from Disney Vacation Club site: "Disney and Concierge Collections options are not available for ownership interests not purchased directly from Disney Vacation Development, Inc. after March 21, 2011, and, effective April 4, 2016, Members who do not purchase an ownership interest directly from Disney Vacation Development Inc. will not have access to Membership Extras."
> 
> 
> Average points for 2BR in High Season:  395 based on a full week spanning July 4.
> 
> 
> Question of Deed vs RTU:  DVC is recorded as a Deed but acts like an RTU with a 50-year lease.  The 50-yr lease starts at a single-point in time and does not "reset" when the ownership is sold/transferred.  Not all buyers will receive a full 50 years even if buying directly from Disney.
> Comment overall:
> 
> Some point systems have different dues based on your home resort; others are based around all owners paying the same dues structure.  Should that be noted?  If I were just getting started looking at point systems, I'd want to know that ... ?
> 
> 
> "Average points for 2br" should read "Average points for 2br in HIGH season" ?
> Thank you, Brian -- great start on the table.



whats the average/usual cost on a 395 point ownership?


----------



## TUGBrian

updated with the most recent info (dont hesitate to remind me if something is still wrong or i missed someones suggestion)

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare-system-comparison-chart.html


----------



## rhonda

TUGBrian said:


> whats the average/usual cost on a 395 point ownership?


$2591.24 based on 2017 dues, 13 DVC resorts (including Copper Creek which opens this summer), excluding subsidized rates at Vero and Aulani.

However -- the devil is in the details, certainly.  Some DVC resorts require a higher-than-average number of points for the room but had a lower dues-per-point.  Two properties, that I know of, offer subsidized dues on some contracts.  My rough attempt at forming an "average" did NOT account for size of each resort which can skew the numbers based on total number of points and $$ of dues generated by that resort w/in the system.


----------



## rhonda

How about a row for extra fees?

Guest Cert? Free for Worldmark and DVC
Reservation booking fee?  Free for Worldmark and DVC
Housekeeping? 
DVC includes standard housekeeping for all DVC reservations; extra (optional) housekeeping is offered at a fee.  
WM includes 1 free housekeeping per use year for accounts 5,000-19,999 points;  1 free housekeeping per use year per 10k points owned from 20k and up (2 HK tokens for 20k, 3 HK tokens for 30k, etc.).  Additional housekeeping charged after free HK tokens are consumed; rate is based on unit size.
I s'pose you could sum this up: First stay included; Addition stays may incur Housekeeping Fee.
TOT?  
DVC: only at Aulani; TOT is collected at Resort Check-in; rate varies by unit size and length of stay.  
WM: TOT is collected at time of reservation for many WM resort locations.  Rate varies by property, unit size and length of stay.
How about a row for Banking and Borrowing?

DVC: Banking and Borrowing are free, irreversible transactions.  New points, at the start of each Use Year period, are valid for 12 months and will expire at the end of the use year unless banked into the future use year.  Banking may be performed only during the first 8 months of the use year.  Points may only be banked or borrowed one year.
WM: Banking and Borrowing are automatic, free, and do not require a separate 'transaction.'  New points, at the start of each use year period, are valid for 24 months and will expire at the end of the use year unless tied to a future reservation.  Points from the next use period may be used to complete any reservation in current or next use period.
More on the Exchange Company topic.

DVC has RCI via Corporate Membership.  RCI access is included in the dues.
WM supports RCI Weeks or II via Individual Memberships.  The member will pay separately for either or both memberships.  WM with TravelShare (developer purchases since 2006) include both RCI Weeks and RCI Points via Corporate Membership included in the TravelShare dues.


----------



## TUGBrian

I think perhaps a different chart or advice article would be applicable for getting into the details of differences there...but im happy to create one when this is done!  keep that in mind and remind me once we get this hashed out.

Im just not sure we could get that much detail in a small little "Grid" square and still keep it readable.


----------



## TUGBrian

we could add "asteriks" to the mf amount for those systems that include the cost of RCI/II (or other useful things) in the annual maintenance fees!


----------



## CO skier

GT75 said:


> Brian,
> I will give you my opinion of average data for HGVC:
> ave (2br) MF: $1000


I know very little about HGVC other than what I investigated regarding Platinum Hilton Valdoro for ski season.  The 7,000 points for Platinum is accurate, but $1000 mf for that 7,000 points seems low compared to the "average" used for other systems.  MF for 7,000 Platinum points is $1285 for Valdoro.

The 2 bedroom maintenance fee estimates on the Timeshare System Comparison Chart for Wyndham and WorldMark seem on the high side to me.  No problem, but if we are to use the high side as the comparison, then the high side of each system should be used for comparison.


Because I know so little about HGVC, I reviewed a few posts in the HGVC Maintenance stickie.  What I saw indicates that $1300/week for 7,000 Platinum season is a better number to use as an average for the Timeshare System Comparison Chart.  High side of HGVC compared to the high side of Club Wyndham and WorldMark.

So, the first question for knowledgeable readers, "Is $1000/week for WorldMark and $1150/week for Club Wyndham on the "high side" for a Prime Season week in a 2 BR unit in these systems?

The second question then, "Is $1300/week (including Program Costs) on the high side, but comparable to other systems" for a 2 BR, 7,000 points Platinum HGVC?


----------



## nuwermj

CO skier said:


> Right To Use (RTU) does carry connotations of an end date to the membership, so I do not know what should go in the "Deed or RTU" row.



I think the RTU/Deed distinction predates pure point systems. With the introduction of pure point systems there are now  three general types of timeshare structures:

1. fee simple, where the owner of the timeshare has a direct, deeded interest in real property;

2. leasehold, where the owner of the timeshare has a term limited entitlement pursuant to a lease agreement registered on the land (traditional RTU); and

3. beneficial interest, where the owner of the timeshare has an indirect ownership in real property (pure points).

Both 2 and 3 are right-to-use structures.


----------



## nuwermj

TUGBrian said:


> updated with the most recent info (dont hesitate to remind me if something is still wrong or i missed someones suggestion)



More information for the table:

Average points for 2br
Bluegreen = 18,000
DRI = 10,000


Average (2br) Maint Fees
DRI = $2,000 
(I made a mistake with my previous estimate)


----------



## GT75

CO skier said:


> I know very little about HGVC other than what I investigated regarding Platinum Hilton Valdoro for ski season.



If you are comparing MF to Valdoro, then it is one of the higher MFs in HGVC system.     I also own Valdoro, but I wouldn't recommend buying there unless for the ski season/home week advantage.      If you did look at our Sticky, then you will notice that our lowest MFs (http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...ith-the-lowest-mfs.249249/page-2#post-1988917) for 7000 points is $580 and 11500 points is $783.   But I would estimate a good MF average is around $0.15/point (*the actual average is $0.1361/point for reported MFs*).    So I think $1000 is still a fair number for HGVC MFs. 

I think that someone suggested adding "program fees" after I previously posted.    HGVC club dues are $159/year {2017 price} in addition to MFs for the first property only.    There are no additional charges if the owner books home week including using guest certificate.    I have never paid any housekeeping charges when using HGVC.   A fee resorts do have parking charges such as HHV (Hilton Hawaiian Village).   There is no charge for borrowing points and $99 for saving points into following year.   

So the total for HGVC including club dues for 7000 points is $1159-1200 range for average MFs.



CO skier said:


> The 2 bedroom maintenance fee estimates on the Timeshare System Comparison Chart for Wyndham and WorldMark seem on the high side to me. No problem, but if we are to use the high side as the comparison, then the high side of each system should be used for comparison.



I think the best is to provide average MFs not highest.   I think that this will serve the users the best.      If everyone would like to use the highest, then I will be happy to adjust my numbers.


----------



## rhonda

CO skier said:


> So, the first question for knowledgeable readers, "Is $1000/week for WorldMark and $1150/week for Club Wyndham on the "high side" for a Prime Season week in a 2 BR unit in these systems?


I think the $1000/week for Worldmark seems high.  My current dues on 20k annual WM points is $1387.48.  So half of that would be ~$700 for the "average 10k 2BR WM week in high season at most resorts."

And, FWIW, I counted 92 Worldmark resorts in the core WM system available to a resale buyer.  This number excludes all WM South Pacific, Affiliates, Club Wyndham, etc.    (I was shocked.  I thought the '90' currently shown on the table was high ... but wowza, we have *90+!  *I've got some traveling to do .. we've only stayed at 51 different WM properties, _including_ WM SP.)


----------



## Sandy VDH

rhonda said:


> I think the $1000/week for Worldmark seems high.  My current dues on 20k annual WM points is $1387.48.  So half of that would be ~$700 for the "average 10k 2BR WM week in high season at most resorts."



But housekeeping charges are required, and that was added to the cost of a 2 BR week.


----------



## rhonda

Sandy VDH said:


> But housekeeping charges are required, and that was added to the cost of a 2 BR week.


Not necessarily?  For comparison purposes, wouldn't one assume the first reservation each use year for every WM account use the free housekeeping token?  Sure, housekeeping and TOT may drive up reservation costs -- but these belong in separate table rows not 'lumped' into the MF cost.


----------



## nuwermj

"is $1150/week for Club Wyndham on the 'high side' for a Prime Season week in a 2 BR unit in these systems?"

CWA (Access; trust fund) fees on 190,000 points are $1,064 plus $128 for program fees, totaling $1,192.


----------



## terces

geist1223 said:


> It depends on where you want to go. Hawaii, Seaside Oregon, and a few others during Spring Break or Summer or Cabo for the Winter you had better be longed at Opening 6am Pacific Time 13 months to the day. Other places more flexibility.



Excellent thread - I have been working hard over the past few weeks to get my head around time-sharing to see if we can replace the RV lifestyle (yech-depreciation) so this is so timely and helpful.  For a little clarity on this 13 month window, is there a new window open each day (or perhaps week) for the exact time period out 13 months in front of you.  Or is there a set date every so often for the bookings.


----------



## rhonda

terces said:


> Excellent thread - I have been working hard over the past few weeks to get my head around time-sharing to see if we can replace the RV lifestyle (yech-depreciation) so this is so timely and helpful.  For a little clarity on this 13 month window, is there a new window open each day (or perhaps week) for the exact time period out 13 months in front of you.  Or is there a set date every so often for the bookings.


For WM, which was the section you quoted, the window is daily.  WM allows check-on on any day of the week.  You may book a reservation 13 months from "today" on any day.  WM also has several different types of reservation windows, see the Reservation Calculator.


----------



## rhonda

BRIAN --

The question raised by 'terces' just above is excellent and should, likely, be referenced in the comparison table.   

"Arrival days":  

WM: any (Su, M, Tu, W, Th, F, Sa)
DVC: any (Su, M, Tu, W, Th, F, Sa)
Wyndham:  I think most Wyndham properties have, in a general sense, limited check-in days?


----------



## Sandy VDH

Everyone has to pay a membership fee.  So I would include that in the cost.  I would footnote this. But note that if you own multiple units this cost is shared across all units, thus perhaps reducing your fees per unit slightly.

Some get free HK or a credit, but what do you do after this, you pay.  I would include it but also footnote, price includes costs for HK but you may receive a credit you can use to offset this. How many credits do you get?  

We are going for an average cost, not the lowest.  We just want it to be illustrative.


----------



## TUGBrian

updated...keep them coming!


----------



## CO skier

Wyndham earns an asterisk for complimentary RCI membership.


----------



## GT75

What about adding "level of accommodations" to the table since it is on the newbee questionnaire?      I don't know what I would put down for HGVC so hopefully someone else will address (if that is decided to be added).



DeniseM said:


> 8) What level of accommodations do you prefer on a scale of 1 to 5 stars?



I do like this effort because I really don't know anything about the other TS systems.    I also like that everyone is trying to compare "apples to apples" with an honest & realistic assessment.


----------



## TUGBrian

asterisk added!


----------



## GT75

HGVC also earns an asterisk for complimentary RCI membership.


----------



## GT75

I also have another suggestion, What about also adding typical resale buy-in cost for this two-bedroom platinum (high) season week?    This probably would bring even more "lively" discussion.


----------



## TUGBrian

im game for creating a separate comparison page for more detailed stuff...but this particular chart would spin out of control if we keep adding all those details =)

I would consider adding a line for something like "% you can save buying resale" or something like that?  or "resale depreciation value" or something that indicates the difference in price between resale and retail.


----------



## TUGBrian

went and added a link to the chart in the OPs first post so more can read it!


----------



## nuwermj

Brian,

Two items for the Diamond Resorts column ...

In the last row (Average points for 2br), there is a dollar sign "$" in the number. That should be removed.

In the "Average (2br) Maint Fees" row, "$1550" should be replaced with "$2,000".


----------



## Sandy VDH

HICV also gets a complimentary RCI with membership.


----------



## TUGBrian

any estimates on an average 2br MF cost for HICV?


----------



## GT75

TUGBrian said:


> im game for creating a separate comparison page for more detailed stuff...but this particular chart would spin out of control if we keep adding all those details =)



I understand.    No problem.     I think that all of the discussion on this topic has been very enlightening.      I do like something to compare each of the different TS systems because I don't understand the others.     I know several of you own in more than one system.  You will have a broader working knowledge.    If we respond to a newbie on general TS questions,   we can only respond on what we know.     In my case, I am limited to one system.      I usually add that in my response.


----------



## TUGBrian

I think once this is done itll make for a great link for just about anyone who posts in the newbies section looking for help in picking a first timeshare for sure!

and likely lead to tons of other questions!


----------



## Sandy VDH

TUGBrian said:


> any estimates on an average 2br MF cost for HICV?



No, and it varies greatly.  I have a Vegas 1 BR, and not enough points for a 2.  But I would guess 2 BR Holiday Season (there is event weeks, that include holidays) then 3 categories below that. 

So I'll guess that 2 BR is avg of 180,000 points and is about $1400 in MFs, but that could be on the high side.


----------



## rhonda

TUGBrian said:


> I think once this is done itll make for a great link for just about anyone who posts in the newbies section looking for help in picking a first timeshare for sure!
> 
> *and likely lead to tons of other questions!*


Yep.  The ones that pop to my mind as I'm reading the chart:

*What is the 'one big thing' that sets each column apart from the others?  *
How can we help highlight the greatest strength of each club?  From the top of my head ...
Wyndham: Sheer number of resorts, mostly east of the Mississippi
Worldmark: Heavy concentration in Western states; Generous cancellation policy; Cash reservation options
Disney: Location, location, location ... if you want to be near its theme parks
Hyatt:  Quality ???
Marriott and Hilton: Is it the way their clubs interact with their hotel chains?  Signature locations? ???
*What about RCI Points?*  (Read that in the newbie's voice?)
*Doesn't II also have a points system?*


----------



## Sandy VDH

Can we add a ROFR row. 

For instance HGVC has it.  Wyndham does NOT.  Makes a different for resale pricing.


----------



## Sandy VDH

I would also change HICV to major differences resale, only 3 resorts in the entire system are automatically in HICV points.  A resale, with the 3 exceptions, LOSSES Completely their point value and they revert back to the fixed/float week they were previously. 

That is major, and makes resales very unattractive.


----------



## rhonda

Sandy VDH said:


> Can we add a ROFR row.
> 
> For instance HGVC has it.  Wyndham does NOT.  Makes a different for resale pricing.


Worldmark: Does NOT have ROFR
DVC: Yes, uses ROFR except for gifting/inheritance within a family


----------



## Quinte

*HYATT*

Adding in some information on Hyatt for the chart.

*What is the 'one big thing' that sets each column apart from the others? *
Might be resort staff, which I have found to be exceptional across the resorts. Part of this comes form lower turnover in staff.

*Avg 2bd maint. fees*
Varies by resort:  BH was about $1500 USD and WOR was about $1200 USD. Have not seen a lot of price inflation in the last five years.

*Reservation Window*
Not certain how you would put this in the chart...

Home Resort/Unit begins 12 months in advance and ends six months in advance. During this period you may:
Reserve your home week/unit
Reserve other available inventory across Hyatt (all or a portion of points)
transfer to II exchange (all or a portion)
Convert to Hyatt World (formerly Gold Passport) points (subject to limit on the number of unit/weeks per resort).

Club Use - from six months before week to start of week, during which you can
Reserve other available inventory across Hyatt (all or a portion of points)
transfer to II exchange (all or a portion, within the first two months)

Limited Club Use - the six months after the day of the fixed-unit/week
Reserve other available inventory across Hyatt (all or a portion of points), but only up to 60 days in advance.

II exchange points remain in account for 24 months beyond the end of the Club Use period.
*Developer vs. Resale*
Access to Hyatt World conversion is not available for resale units. 

*Avg. points for 2bd unit*
Range is from a low of 200 (Mountain Season) to a high of 2,950 (Diamond Season, Deluxe Unit).

Wk 6 at Ski destinations - 2,200 (1,880 High Sierra Lodge)
Wk 10 Florida - 2,200, higher for Premier/Deluxe units at Siesta Key


----------



## TUGBrian

ill add a double asterisk in the resale difference section for ROFR


----------



## TUGBrian

updated with the most current info in the thread, its coming along!


----------



## nuwermj

Vistana

Starwood Vacation Network (SVN)

*Number of Resorts*
I count 19 in SVN

*Deeded v. RTU*
Both ... Sheraton Flex is Vistana's pure point system.

*Reservation Window*
12 months at home resort
8 months any Network resort

*Developer vs. Resale*
Membership in SVN does not transfer on resale. Resale purchases have no access to the Network. A resale deed can become qualified with a developer purchase.

*Avg. points for 2bd unit*
81,000


----------



## rhonda

Request to rename row heading 
"Average points for 2br" to "Avg point for 2BR High Season"?

Or, if the row is intended to reflect an 'average' 2BR -- I will rework the stated DVC for a different (lower) number.  The stated 395 figure represents the average of all 2BR unit types in the system for a full week over the 4th of July.


----------



## rhonda

I'd still like a way to show/reflect "other fees."  Some systems feel as if they nickel and dime their owners and it makes a difference.  The common fees I'm aware of:

Housekeeping Fee:

WM: Yes, after exceeding free tokens (Or, perhaps to state this in shorter format: "Yes >threshold" ?)
Wyndham: Yes, after exceeding free tokens
DVC: Optional
RCI Points: Yes
TOT Fee:

WM: Yes, some
Wyndham: ??
DVC: Yes, some  (or "Yes, 1 or more"?  Aulani, as far as I know if the only DVC resort to currently charge TOT)
RCI Points: Yes, some
Guest Cert Fee:

WM: Free  (I prefer "Free" to "No" or "None" in that the negative answers may read that Guest Certs are not offered rather than, "Guest certs are offered w/out a fee.")
Wyndham: Yes
DVC: Free
RCI Points: Yes
Transaction Fee:

WM: No
Wyndham: Yes
DVC: No
RCI Points: Yes
Are other fees _common_ in the point system world:  Resort fee? Parking Fee? Energy Fee? Inclusive Fees?


----------



## CO skier

rhonda said:


> Request to rename row heading
> "Average points for 2br" to "Avg point for 2BR High Season"?
> 
> Or, if the row is intended to reflect an 'average' 2BR -- I will rework the stated DVC for a different (lower) number.  The stated 395 figure represents the average of all 2BR unit types in the system for a full week over the 4th of July.



I agree and suggest renaming the Average points for 2 br to "Avg points for 2 BR Summer Season".  Each system has regular (not deluxe) 2 BR units and the "high" season goes by different names in the various brands, but "summer" is high season in all the brands, so "summer season" can be used to get something of a direct comparison.


----------



## taterhed

TUGBrian said:


> im game for creating a separate comparison page for more detailed stuff...but this particular chart would spin out of control if we keep adding all those details =)
> 
> I would consider adding a line for something like "% you can save buying resale" or something like that?  or "resale depreciation value" or something that indicates the difference in price between resale and retail.




In light of your comments and the wonderful "extra information" that many have posted here on page 5 of the thread, I'd make the following suggestion (if we feel like coding):  Add a "Pro's  / Con's  / Fees" row to the bottom of the table that contains a link to a single chart/table for each system with Pro's, Con's, Fees sections and the appropriate details.  I think if we posted each one separately, we could fill it here in 1-2 days. 

If you elect to do the extra page for each system, I'd also suggest a row to briefly identify resale purchase considerations, i.e. efficient MF's or club affiliation or II/RCI etc....

Amazing idea!


----------



## nuwermj

CO skier said:


> I agree and suggest renaming the Average points for 2 br to "Avg points for 2 BR Summer Season".



"Summer Season" except Palm Springs and Scottsdale. This timeshare stuff is so complicated


----------



## nuwermj

Another suggested modification that might be considered is to make a web page for each column which elaborates the information in the rows. I'm thinking of something that might look like "Quinte's" message above -- the row label in bold and elaboration under it. I think such a page would be more helpful to the new user/owner then the link to the FAQ. A dedicated web page would have the same structure as the table; In the FAQ forum the new user/owner must hunt around for the information and, because the terminology varies among systems, confusion is more common.


----------



## taterhed

nuwermj said:


> Another suggested modification that might be considered is to make a web page for each column which elaborates the information in the rows. I'm thinking of something that might look like "Quinte's" message above -- the row label in bold and elaboration under it. I think such a page would be more helpful to the new user/owner then the link to the FAQ. A dedicated web page would have the same structure as the table; In the FAQ forum the new user/owner must hunt around for the information and, because the terminology varies among systems, confusion is more common.




-------^  +1


----------



## CO skier

nuwermj said:


> "Summer Season" except Palm Springs and Scottsdale. This timeshare stuff is so complicated


and Tucson and Mexico

As always, "It depends!"

... but you get my drift.  Most people want to vacation during the summer, so summer is "high" season.  The chart will be most relevant if all the brands compare the same summer season in a 2 BR when "everyone" wants to vacation.


----------



## TUGBrian

im not totally sold on the whole "high season" thing...especially not using a specific holiday week as an average to compare.

the goal was to include a comparison/average of what is most commonly bought and sold.  I cant imagine that any of the systems sell more "high season/holiday weeks" than any other.

and the problem with using the ultra high demand stuff is that some of the systems have STAGGERING differences between a regular high season week, and an ultra high demand holiday week.


----------



## TUGBrian

ok...i think we have come to a consensus on how to manage the comparison for the points/mf lines.

id like to use as a standard comparison, the cost in maint fees, and point values...for a SUMMER week at a normal/midlevel/standard/whatever resort within the system.

not a holiday week, not a special week, (obviously not a ski resort week)...but an average point value and maintenance fee for a perfectly normal/regular resort within the system...during a summer high demand week.

please let me know if this changes any of the estimates or values already published on the page


----------



## CO skier

TUGBrian said:


> ok...i think we have come to a consensus on how to manage the comparison for the points/mf lines.
> 
> id like to use as a standard comparison, the cost in maint fees, and point values...for a SUMMER week at a normal/midlevel/standard/whatever resort within the system.
> 
> not a holiday week, not a special week, (obviously not a ski resort week)...but an average point value and maintenance fee for a perfectly normal/regular resort within the system...during a summer high demand week.
> 
> please let me know if this changes any of the estimates or values already published on the page


Just to clarify and for standardization, the maintenance fee number should include the annual program cost(s)?  Most new timeshare buyers would start with only one week, so the full program costs would be part of their total annual maintenance costs.


----------



## DeniseM

My input for Vistana:

Avg. MF for 2 bdm. - $2,000 (but there is a huge range from Florida to Harborside, for instance)

Vistana has both deeded weeks, and a _separate_ new points system now.

Avg. points for 2 bdm. - at the popular resorts = 148,100


----------



## TUGBrian

if there is a mandatory annual fee that is charged to an owner as part of the maint fees, it should be included yes.


----------



## TUGBrian

DeniseM said:


> My input for Vistana:
> 
> Avg. MF for 2 bdm. - $2,000 (but there is a huge range from Florida to Harborside, for instance)
> 
> Vistana has both deeded weeks, and a _separate_ new points system now.
> 
> Avg. points for 2 bdm. - at the popular resorts = 148,100


added, thank you.

is there a reservation window for owners?  (home resort vs any resort?)


----------



## DeniseM

In most cases:
Home resort reservations - 12-8 mos. out
Staroption reservations (any resort) - 8-0 mos. out


----------



## DeniseM

Also - Vistana has ROFR at some resorts.

II/RCI membership is included with all developer purchases + 5 of the resorts


----------



## rhonda

TUGBrian said:


> ok...i think we have come to a consensus on how to manage the comparison for the points/mf lines.
> 
> id like to use as a standard comparison, the cost in maint fees, and point values...for a SUMMER week at a normal/midlevel/standard/whatever resort within the system.
> 
> not a holiday week, not a special week, (obviously not a ski resort week)...but an average point value and maintenance fee for a perfectly normal/regular resort within the system...during a summer high demand week.
> 
> please let me know if this changes any of the estimates or values already published on the page


The figure previously stated for DVC stands under this new definition except that I averaged all 2BR units across all DVC properties for a summer week rather than choosing one specific resort.  Yes, I chose a July week spanning a holiday -- but DVC's charts don't put extra emphasis on holiday summer weeks.


----------



## TUGBrian

thanks!

only a few more question marks and we win BINGO!


----------



## rhonda

TUGBrian said:


> thanks!
> 
> only a few more question marks and we win BINGO!


Yes ... but I'm thinking that the "1" shown on the last row for Shell should have been a Question Mark? ;-)


----------



## TUGBrian

ha...probably!

lots of blanks in that column!


----------



## rhonda

NEVERMIND:  Are we certain Holiday Inn Club as 30 properties?  I only see 13 on their website.  Of course, I know nothing about their program and am simply believing what the public-facing website is trying to show me.  I'm sure there is something magic about the number of destinations shown?

I was previously looking at a drop down with ~13 properties listed.  When I visit the "Explore" page I see more.  Not sure if all of these are core properties or a mixture of core + affiliates.

EDITED TO ADD:  The Explore page shows 25 resorts, of which 8 are distinguished as "Signature Collection."


----------



## TUGBrian

I count at least 18 on TUG...im not sure where the 30 came from...but I am pretty sure they just absorbed a number of other timeshares (orange lake?) into their system...so the total count might be in a bit of a flux!


----------



## Sandy VDH

You can't just say summer season, you just have to say the highest demand season and use that.  Because summer is not high at some places, I know when I looked at both the average points for both Wyndham and HICV I used an average of the highest demand week.  

for HGVC I see that others used the standard points chart for a Platinum week, without any additional views etc.

So the highest season possible in each point program, with the entry level 2 BR unit, whatever that is for each system.  

Adding a footnote that there are higher points required for other places, and additional points required for upgrade views.


----------



## TUGBrian

I think that every resort system has a majority of resorts that have "summer weeks" that apply to this comparison no?


----------



## Sandy VDH

TUGBrian said:


> I count at least 18 on TUG...im not sure where the 30 came from...but I am pretty sure they just absorbed a number of other timeshares (orange lake?) into their system...so the total count might be in a bit of a flux!



I'm pretty sure I know how to count.....You could argue that Orlando is one, but when you book you have to select different resort to search.  You could also argue the some of the Signature Collection are also at regular resorts, but there are at least 1 that is independent of that, Marco Island.

So 29 or 35+, but certainly NOT 13.  

Here is what is listed in HICV.  2 lines under a location is 2 separate resorts.


----------



## TUGBrian

I didnt come up with the 13 number, your post was the first id seen that number mentioned.

I get 28 total on the left side...and 8 more on the right?


----------



## TUGBrian

but the 8 on the right are all duplicates of ones on the left...im guessing perhaps they are just nicer rooms in the same resorts?


----------



## TUGBrian

appears the TUG listings were low because many had not been updated with the HICV name in the title...ive just done that.


----------



## rhonda

Sandy VDH said:


> I'm pretty sure I know how to count.....You could argue that Orlando is one, but when you book you have to select different resort to search.  You could also argue the some of the Signature Collection are also at regular resorts, but there are at least 1 that is independent of that, Marco Island.
> 
> So 29 or 35+, but certainly NOT 13.
> 
> Here is what is listed in HICV.  2 lines under a location is 2 separate resorts.
> 
> View attachment 3874


I count 25 on the left side of the screen capture?  Using Orange Lake as "1" location.

(Yes, I was the one that originally posted '13' and revised that count.  I explained that was from a drop down menu before I found the "Explore" page.)


----------



## Sandy VDH

TUGBrian said:


> but the 8 on the right are all duplicates of ones on the left...im guessing perhaps they are just nicer rooms in the same resorts?



Marco Island ONLY appears on the right, not on the left.  It is an associate type.

Signature is like Presidential in wyndham


----------



## TUGBrian

orange lake is listed as 4 separate resorts just about everywhere, despite all the different phases/buildings sharing the same lot.  so i counted it as 4 total.


----------



## rhonda

TUGBrian said:


> orange lake is listed as 4 separate resorts just about everywhere, despite all the different phases/buildings sharing the same lot.  so i counted it as 4 total.


Ok. Given that ... could we change the WM resort count to 90+? 
For WM, I count 92 locations in their drop down pick-list ... but know that "Tahoe" is really three facilities spread over a mile.  So using Orange Lake logic, WM Tahoe would count as "3."  90*+* should cover the bases?  Thx!


----------



## DeniseM

Vistana also sells a points program now (separate from deeded weeks) - are you calling this RTU?


----------



## TUGBrian

Im not calling it anything =D...if there is something wrong with one of the figures let me know, im only inputting information I get from members sofar!  ive changed vistana to read "both" now.


----------



## DeniseM

Under the Deeded or RTU column, you have "deeded - RTU - or both," and you have "both" for Wyndham - which has deeded weeks and points.

How are you defining RTU on the chart?  Are points that do not have an underlying deed, RTU?  If so, Vistana offers that at some resorts now, and we believe that will be their focus in the future.


----------



## rhonda

How about a row indicating ownership/membership expiration?

Contract has set expiration?

WM: No 
DVC: Yes (date varies by resort)
others?


----------



## nuwermj

Marriott Destination fees on 4150 points are $2,373 -- $0.5272 per point plus $185 program fee.


----------



## TUGBrian

perhaps a better description or terminology would be applicable for the deeded/rtu line...something to indicate the difference between an actual deeded property you own forever...and systems where you are simply paying for access to points within the system and dont actually own anything tangible?


----------



## CO skier

TUGBrian said:


> I think once this is done itll make for a great link for just about anyone who posts in the newbies section looking for help in picking a first timeshare for sure!
> 
> and likely lead to tons of other questions!


I think it is important to keep in mind the target audience for this excellent chart that compares the most basic properties of each systems' program.

Does someone new to timeshares care about the deeded versus RTU ownership types?  imo, not in the beginning when they are just trying to narrow down the choice to a few.  Does the OP who started all this necessarily care about how ownership is defined within any system?  Probably not, and they probably would not know what "RTU" means.  (How many posts have we read about confusing abbreviations).

I do not think deeded ownership offers anything "tangible" versus Right To Use.  It is a timeshare; it is not like you can use it as collateral for a "timeshare equity loan" on a deeded timeshare.  As an experience timeshare owner, I find non-deeded timeshares to be preferable -- much easier to transfer ownership.

Long story short, I think the type of ownership is not a primary concern for new owners, and the subtleties would just confuse potential new timeshare owners.  These subtleties can be explained in detail within the links to the FAQ for each timeshare system, if the owners in any particular system find it of major importance.  (In the WorldMark system, for example, it could be explained in one, short sentence).

Considering all this, I suggest deleting the "Deeded or RTU?" row from the comparison chart.


----------



## DeniseM

> I do not think deeded ownership offers anything "tangible" versus Right To Use. It is a timeshare; it is not like you can use it as collateral for a "timeshare equity loan". As an experience timeshare owner, I find non-deeded timeshares to be preferable -- much easier to transfer ownership.



Maybe with some systems, but the new Vistana RTU points are not a good deal, so the difference is significant.

However, I agree that for newbies, the chart will just be a starting point for lots of research and questions.


----------



## CO skier

DeniseM said:


> Maybe with some systems, but the new Vistana RTU points are not a good deal, so the difference is significant.
> 
> However, I agree that for newbies, the chart will just be a starting point for lots of research and questions.


An excellent example of how different each system may be and why it is so difficult to capture something as important as this in the systems-wide overview of the Chart.

Once someone has settled on Vistana and maybe one or two others, they can delve into the FAQ for the systems of interest to explore the critical differences that simply cannot be summarized in a Chart.  Experienced owners within each system will, hopefully, have addressed the significant issues in the more detailed FAQ.


----------



## TUGBrian

im ok with eliminating that row...do we have something more useful to replace it with?


----------



## TUGBrian

just uploaded a new version...i moved the avg points row up to replace the deed/rtu row...so now we have the blank at the bottom.  if we dont find another universal/simple item to toss in there...i will just remove the row completely.


----------



## planzfortomorrow

Great chart!!!  I would have found it helpful when I was first learning about TS's as the points just don't mean much unless you already know each of the systems.

Hyatt has ROFR.  I would say the differences between resale and developer are minor; the only thing is that you can't use your points for hotel stays.

Didn't Disney block resales from buying all season passes?  Or something similar?  Seems like they just changed something about 6 months ago which would have bothered me (if you previously owned resale then you were grandfathered in).  I don't own DVC but will occasionally look into it, "just in case".


----------



## TUGBrian

how about something like "resale value"...with terms like "none" for systems like dri/hgcv  all the way up to "significant" like DVC at the other end.

that sort of thing would get me to do a doubletake and ask further questions for sure!


----------



## TUGBrian

id thing something along the lines of

Marriott - modest
hilton - modest
vistana - low
hyatt - modest
wyndham - low
worldmark - low
bluegreen - none
disney - high
dri - none
hicv - none
shell - none

(cant wait to see what kinda debate this causes!)


----------



## nuwermj

TUGBrian said:


> (cant wait to see what kinda debate this causes!)



Looks good to me. But there should be a date stamp as things can change in a year. (Unless you're going to update it regularly).


----------



## TUGBrian

im not sure any of those have changed in the past few years, but should the situation arise its not difficult to update at all.


----------



## CO skier

TUGBrian said:


> id thing something along the lines of
> 
> Marriott - modest
> hilton - modest
> vistana - low
> hyatt - modest
> wyndham - low
> worldmark - low
> bluegreen - none
> disney - high
> dri - none
> hicv - none
> shell - none
> 
> (cant wait to see what kinda debate this causes!)


I think "Ease of Exit" would be more important, and would still capture any resale value.  If a timeshare has some resale value it would be easy to exit.

WorldMark may have relatively low resale value, and Wyndham may have negative to low resale value, but on average either can be returned at no cost to Wyndham through Ovation.  That is a definite plus.  Either would be "Easy" to exit once done with the timeshare.

Another system that has no resale value and no buyback program would be "Difficult" to exit.


----------



## rhonda

TUGBrian said:


> im ok with eliminating that row...do we have something more useful to replace it with?


How about referencing 'Expires?' instead of the Deed/RTU issue?  The DVC boards field many questions about when one resort expires vs another -- so I feel it is an important characteristic of timeshare evaluations.


----------



## TUGBrian

I think disney is really the only one that actually expires doesnt it?


----------



## rhonda

TUGBrian said:


> I think disney is really the only one that actually expires doesnt it?


Well, that might be.  I don't know for all -- but, yes, DVC will expire.

In that case, perhaps the Expiration is the "last mile" exit strategy as requested above?


----------



## rhonda

WM added a "**" for ROFR.  I don't think it belongs in the WM column.  Was it, perhaps, intended elsewhere?


----------



## TUGBrian

might have been just a mis-label by me (chances are high)..ive removed it...but clearly it was meant to go somewhere?

(note page is current as of this posting)


----------



## DeniseM

> vistana - low



The problem with "averages" is that there is a huge range within the system, so an "average" answer really doesn't mean much.  There are Vistana timeshares that you can't give away, and Vistana timeshares that sell for $10-20K.


----------



## TUGBrian

the same can be said for most any system on this chart.

however i think its fair to say that the average vistana resale week has little to no resale value.


----------



## Sandy VDH

HICV time window is

3 yrs (home week)
13mo(home resort)
10mo(any)


----------



## GT75

Sandy VDH said:


> for HGVC I see that others used the standard points chart for a Platinum week, without any additional views etc.



I see now that the chart has "average number of points for 2 Bd".     I think we are still comparing the high season which for Hilton that is platinum (there isn't another "higher" rate).    The current value listed (7000 points) isn't an average for 2 Bd.    It really is the regular/standard amount.   For example, at Ocean Oaks (new HGVC property on Hilton Head Island), we have 7000 points standard 2 Bd, 8400 points for Ocean View (plus) and 9600 points for Ocean Front (premier).    These are all platinum weeks (or summer weeks in this case).    If we are still trying to compare "apples to apples" between the various TS systems, is this still good?     I think that the MFs for Hilton are still good either way.


----------



## Sandy VDH

GT75 said:


> I see now that the chart has "average number of points for 2 Bd".     I think we are still comparing the high season which for Hilton that is platinum (there isn't another "higher" rate).    The current value listed (7000 points) isn't an average for 2 Bd.    It really is the regular/standard amount.   For example, at Ocean Oaks (new HGVC property on Hilton Head Island), we have 7000 points standard 2 Bd, 8400 points for Ocean View (plus) and 9600 points for Ocean Front (premier).    These are all platinum weeks (or summer weeks in this case).    If we are still trying to compare "apples to apples" between the various TS systems, is this still good?     I think that the MFs for Hilton are still good either way.



I know, I suggested using the average highest season entry level 2 BR.  Not adding view or other consideration.  That would make 7000 for HGVC not really average, it likely should be slightly higher, but there are far more resorts at the standard point level and only 4 resorts (or towers) that are higher points, but at every location there is a 7000 point option.  So I think that is OK.  I know when I picked average for both Wyndham and Holiday Inn, I went and looked at the vast majority 2 BRs over all the resorts.  HGVC is a much for consistent point structure over almost all of its resorts.  That is not the case for many other systems.


----------



## CO skier

GT75 said:


> I see now that the chart has "average number of points for 2 Bd".     I think we are still comparing the high season which for Hilton that is platinum (there isn't another "higher" rate).    The current value listed (7000 points) isn't an average for 2 Bd.    It really is the regular/standard amount.   For example, at Ocean Oaks (new HGVC property on Hilton Head Island), we have 7000 points standard 2 Bd, 8400 points for Ocean View (plus) and 9600 points for Ocean Front (premier).    These are all platinum weeks (or summer weeks in this case).    If we are still trying to compare "apples to apples" between the various TS systems, is this still good?     I think that the MFs for Hilton are still good either way.


I think 7000 (plus program fees) is the number to use (if that is the average for a regular, not view, not Ocean Front units) across most of the resorts.  That was the standard used for the WorldMark and Wyndham numbers.  So, it is apples-to-apples with those two systems, at least.


----------



## GT75

Sandy VDH said:


> I know, I suggested using the average highest season entry level 2 BR.





CO skier said:


> I think 7000 (plus program fees) is the number to use (if that is the average for a regular, not view, not Ocean Front units) across most of the resorts.



OK, great.    I agree.    7000 points is the number that I would recommend for any looking for entry level 2 Bd in Hilton system.

I do think that the table is great because I don't understand any of the other systems.     I know that this doesn't and wouldn't completely compare each TS system, but it certainly looks like a great starting place for someone looking to get an idea before purchasing their first TS.     I know that I would have loved to have seen this before my first purchase.


----------



## DeniseM

I would add a foot note to the chart stating that points from different systems have different values and cannot be directly compared, because that is going to be one of the most confusing things for newbies.


----------



## CO skier

GT75 said:


> I see now that the chart has "average number of points for 2 Bd".     I think we are still comparing the high season which for Hilton that is platinum (there isn't another "higher" rate).


I think the chart description was supposed to change to "Average (2br Summer Season) maintenance fees" and "Average points for 2 bd in Summer Season" with the 2 bd defined as "normal/midlevel/standard/whatever".

ref. Post #128 on page 6


----------



## TUGBrian

updated with latest info (to my knowledge)

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare-system-comparison-chart.html


----------



## TUGBrian

if anyone wants a neat glimpse into the past....I am pretty sure this is the original thread from 2006 that started the chart/article we are currently updating/creating today now over a decade later!

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index....he-top-4-hotel-based-timeshare-systems.34031/


----------



## rhonda

TUGBrian said:


> if anyone wants a neat glimpse into the past....I am pretty sure this is the original thread from 2006 that started the chart/article we are currently updating/creating today now over a decade later!
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index....he-top-4-hotel-based-timeshare-systems.34031/


Nice discussion - but centered on 'hotel timeshares' and does not result in the chart I remember.  There is another out there ... somewhere.


----------



## TUGBrian

I think it was simply a comparison of the major players at the time...  it generated this chart (which will be replace by this new chart)

http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/hotel_based_timeshare_comparison.html

(note i went ahead and updated the redirect to point to the new chart as most of the data in that old chart is long outdated)


----------



## rhonda

Right -- but there was another than compared the Points System timeshares of the day and addressed banking/borrowing, how long a point lasts, etc.


TUGBrian said:


> I think it was simply a comparison of the major players at the time...  it generated this chart (which will be replace by this new chart)
> 
> http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/hotel_based_timeshare_comparison.html


----------



## TUGBrian

I dont see any advice articles that discuss that, but thats not to say one doesnt exist somewhere!  it might be a forum post?


----------



## nuwermj

Would adding this link to the chart be useful? I think the information is kind of next step for a potential new owner. Perhaps in the a footnote since it deals with multiple systems.  

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/faq-links-for-point-based-ts-systems.64571/


----------



## TUGBrian

is most of that even still current?  I see many of the first few posts havent been touched since 2008!


----------



## nuwermj

TUGBrian said:


> is most of that even still current?  I see many of the first few posts havent been touched since 2008!



Perhaps you're right; as a whole, the thread is old which might confuse the new member. But there are a few gems in the bunch.


----------



## TUGBrian

ill add it to the list of things to get updated!


----------



## Melder

TUGBrian said:


> I think it was simply a comparison of the major players at the time...  it generated this chart (which will be replace by this new chart)
> 
> http://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/hotel_based_timeshare_comparison.html
> 
> (note i went ahead and updated the redirect to point to the new chart as most of the data in that old chart is long outdated)



I noticed the Average (2br) Maint Fees for Wyndham changed from $1150 to $1440 and Worldmark from $1k to $1,130 from when it was originally posted 4 1/2 years ago.  Did Wyndham really increase by 25% over that time, while Worldmark only increased by 13%?  What about fee increases for the other Timeshare systems?  We are no longer comparing apples to apples.


----------



## TUGBrian

1440 seems high to me for an average of wyndham 2br...but if that is the current value im happy to update the chart.


----------



## Sandy VDH

TUGBrian said:


> 1440 seems high to me for an average of wyndham 2br...but if that is the current value im happy to update the chart.



The problem is average.   There are old resorts where 154K is the points required and those MF are about $1150 faverage MF folks.  But some have higher MFs per Point and some resorts may require more than double that for a 2 BR in prime season,  could be double that price above.  

So average is relative. 

I know I argued with WM folks who wanted to make 10K the average for  2 BR in the highest season, but that ignores that fact that the new TX resorts all require at least 12.5K to 15K for the same size unit.   I think some had an agenda to make their ownership look like a better choice.  To me it is what it is.


----------



## bnoble

Sounds maybe semi-plausible for Wyndham. The median UDI deed in 2021 is $6.69/K including the "average" program fee of 0.63. The next question is how many points does the "average" 2BR cost? *In peak season*, it's probably fair to say that it is north of 200K, which would put you in the right ballpark (about 213K). If instead you are considering the average *year round*, that's probably too high.

But, I also suspect that one or both numbers ($1150 and $1440) were made up. They were almost certainly computed in different ways. The median UDI deed in 2018 (3-4 years ago) was $6.16, or only about 10% less than the current median. The median for 2017 is higher, but that's because there were more values in that column. But I have a hard time believing the same set of resorts was so much lower that you'd get down to $5.35, which is what you'd have to get to get the math in that comparison table to work out.

Even CWA, which seems to have gone up faster than the typical UDI or converted fixed week only went from $6.16/K in 2017 to $7.24 this year, or an increase of 17.5% in that time.


----------



## TUGBrian

well, id consider an average to be somewhere in the reasonable middle of two extremes.

Im not sure that using "peak season" is a good measure of an average, as it by its own nature is "above average" unless peak season for most resorts is more than 6 months a year.


----------



## bnoble

Ultimately, I don't think it matters. IMO, the best reason to buy one mini-system over another is that one has the set of resorts you are most interested in, and the cost of doing business is something you are comfortable with. The costs of Wyndham are so variable (individual $/K ratios can vary by factors of two or more) that averages aren't that interesting.


----------



## bnoble

bnoble said:


> he median UDI deed in 2021 is $6.69/K including the "average" program fee of 0.63.


I got this wrong, because that column included some full-week numbers. The median is more like $6.20ish for 2021. The table also claims an average 2BR week is 190K points. At that point, the $1440 number is just wrong---it should be more like $1200. I suspect they were using CWA $/K which is on the high side.


----------



## CO skier

bnoble said:


> *In peak season*, it's probably fair to say that it is north of 200K, which would put you in the right ballpark (about 213K). If instead you are considering the average *year round*, that's probably too high.


There was a discussion about this back on pages 5 and 6.

When would most new owners want to vacation?  Summer season, which is peak season in every system and provides a direct, apples-to-apples comparison of what a new owner could expect to pay in maintenance fees.  "Absolute peak" holiday weeks were not considered, because not every system makes a distinction between holiday weeks in the peak/red/high season.


----------



## CO skier

bnoble said:


> But, I also suspect that one or both numbers ($1150 and $1440) were made up. They were almost certainly computed in different ways. The median UDI deed in 2018 (3-4 years ago) was $6.16, or only about 10% less than the current median. The median for 2017 is higher, but that's because there were more values in that column. But I have a hard time believing the same set of resorts was so much lower that you'd get down to $5.35, which is what you'd have to get to get the math in that comparison table to work out.
> 
> Even CWA, which seems to have gone up faster than the typical UDI or converted fixed week only went from $6.16/K in 2017 to $7.24 this year, or an increase of 17.5% in that time.


There is also the consideration of what is there to buy?   Is what is available to buy closer to $1200/190k points or $1440/190k points.  CWA would be the most common deed available, and it is what the developer predominantly sells.

Maybe do what the pollsters do - an average of averages, or $1320/190k.

A sampling of what recently sold on Ebay:

Wyndham Glacier Canyon   189,000   MF $*1506*

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224675940286?hash=item344fbac7be:g:dgkAAOSwCRdhhAfA



Wyndham Bonnet Creek   500,000  MF $3581 equivalent to $*1360* per 190k

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313725390489?hash=item490b7d8e99:g:e-4AAOSwZTJa63wt



Club Wyndham Access  205,000  MF $1490   equivalent to $*1380* per 190k

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313725390489?hash=item490b7d8e99:g:e-4AAOSwZTJa63wt



Wyndham Sedona   154,000  MF $1014  equivalent to $*1251* per 190k

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255208354759?hash=item3b6b9a73c7:g:lyAAAOSwtWhhDWLv


----------



## CO skier

Sandy VDH said:


> I know I argued with WM folks who wanted to make 10K the average for  2 BR in the highest season, but that ignores that fact that the new TX resorts all require at least 12.5K to 15K for the same size unit.   I think some had an agenda to make their ownership look like a better choice.  To me it is what it is.


The WorldMark TX resorts are outliers.

In 2021, the average credits for a Red (highest) season 2 bedroom for all US WorldMark resorts is 11,238 credits.

In 2021, the median credits for a Red (highest) season 2 bedroom for all US WorldMark resorts is 10,000 credits.

In 2021, the WM MF is $1130 for 11,000 and 12,000 credits, so someone who bought 12,000 credits would have a 9% lower mf/credit compared to an 11,000 credit owner.


----------



## CO skier

Melder said:


> I noticed the Average (2br) Maint Fees for Wyndham changed from $1150 to $1440 and Worldmark from $1k to $1,130 from when it was originally posted 4 1/2 years ago.  Did Wyndham really increase by 25% over that time, while Worldmark only increased by 13%?  What about fee increases for the other Timeshare systems?  We are no longer comparing apples to apples.


The WorldMark mf for 11,000 credits was $939 in 2017.  $939 to $1130 is a 20% increase.


----------



## pedro47

Great advice and information by some Tuggers; but the OP, have not posted since 2017.


----------



## TUGBrian

so 1300ish for wyndham and 1130 for wm?


----------



## bnoble

bnoble said:


> the $1440 number is just wrong---it should be more like $1200.


I went back to double check just to be sure. The median $/K of the UDI deeds reported in 2021 was $5.78 (once you remove the whole-week numbers from the column). The Program Fee averages 0.63, for a total of $6.43. If the average 2BR takes 190K (as claimed in the comparison table), the total cost is $1,221.70. So I'd call Wyndham either 1200 or 1225 not 1300.

I don't have an opinion about WorldMark, and I'm assuming the 190K figure is correct.


----------

