# Wyndham eliminating mega-renters



## dgalati

Its happening not only for large renters but IMHO even the small ball renters are being squeezed.  The new policies in place have made it harder for everyone to rent.


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## am1

dgalati said:


> Its happening not only for large renters but IMHO even the small ball renters are being squeezed.  The new policies in place have made it harder for everyone to rent.


Have to innovate.  When I was just breaking in and when a small timer there were mega renters who in a few years were out of the business.


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## 55plus

Overall this means more units at nicer locations for owners' personal travel.


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## dgalati

am1 said:


> Have to innovate.  When I was just breaking in and when a small timer there were mega renters who in a few years were out of the business.


I hear Wyndham is sending out letters now to owners that are renting out for commercial interests.  I wonder what the parameters are to be considered a commercial business.  Please help us understand  what you know about Wyndham's policy on what they consider to be a megarenter.


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## dgalati

55plus said:


> Overall this means more units at nicer locations for owners' personal travel.


Yes you are seeing the big picture. Less rentals equals more availability for owners to book.


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## lost patience

Just saying....  Aren't those that are renting, owners as well?   I think I would be pretty upset if I was told I could not rent my house.


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## 55plus

I think someone's wholly owned home or vacation home is different than fractional ownership. In this case Wyndham is the referee and it's their game, but the owners' own the court. I understand both sides of the issue.


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## dioxide45

Can owners still not rent unlimited reservations that were made inside of the home resort priority. I can see Wyndham setting rules for reservations made inside of Club Wyndham, which is technically an exchange company, but if you make a reservation at your home resort, could they limit that too?


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## 55plus

dioxide45 said:


> Can owners still not rent unlimited reservations that were made inside of the home resort priority. I can see Wyndham setting rules for reservations made inside of Club Wyndham, which is technically an exchange company, but if you make a reservation at your home resort, could they limit that too?


I believe all rentals at specific resorts (high demand locations and high demand timeframes) have restrictions in order to free up availability for owners' personal travel use. I think that's the goal.


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## troy12n

dgalati said:


> Its happening not only for large renters but _*IMHO*_ *even the small ball renters are being squeezed*.  The new policies in place have made it harder for everyone to rent.



You have no evidence of this, yet continue to use this forum as your soapbox in your personal vendetta against Wyndham...

I see Wyndham cracking down on mega renters (the real ones) if it's even happening, as a net win for all owners.

I can't be sad for someone who bought a million points retail, then 80 million resale points for a couple grand giving their resale points back because they can no longer run their most likely completely illegitimate business... gaming the VIP system to the extreme. You know, the one they aren't paying taxes on and all that.


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## am1

troy12n said:


> You have no evidence of this, yet continue to use this forum as your soapbox in your personal vendetta against Wyndham...
> 
> I see Wyndham cracking down on mega renters (the real ones) if it's even happening, as a net win for all owners.
> 
> I can't be sad for someone who bought a million points retail, then 80 million resale points for a couple grand giving their resale points back because they can no longer run their most likely completely illegitimate business... gaming the VIP system to the extreme. You know, the one they aren't paying taxes on and all that.


Why would one not pay taxes on earned income?


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## troy12n

am1 said:


> Why would one not pay taxes on earned income?



Because they are dishonest and don't claim it as income... a lot of landlords don't pay any taxes on their rental properties, I expect timeshare renters to do the same...


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## Cyrus24

troy12n said:


> Because they are dishonest


That's a little harsh.


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## troy12n

Cyrus24 said:


> That's a little harsh.



My previous executive Director (who just retired) owned like 8 rental properties, bragged about not paying taxes on any of his rental income, also was one of these people who voted exclusively for the candidate that promised to keep taxes low, cut programs, etc... on income he didn't even report. You know the type. Truth be known, he spent most of his time "at work" managing his properties and looking for new ones, but that's another story.


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## Cyrus24

troy12n said:


> My previous executive Director (who just retired) owned like 8 rental properties, bragged about not paying taxes on any of his rental income, also was one of these people who voted exclusively for the candidate that promised to keep taxes low, cut programs, etc... on income he didn't even report. You know the type. Truth be known, he spent most of his time "at work" managing his properties and looking for new ones, but that's another story.


One example of a dishonest landlord and you call ALL involved in renting, dishonest.  Harsh, not everybody is dishonest.  And, a persons political views are not indicators of dishonesty, either.  I stand by my statement.  Harsh.


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## paxsarah

Cyrus24 said:


> One example of a dishonest landlord and you call ALL involved in renting, dishonest.  Harsh, not everybody is dishonest.  And, a persons political views are not indicators of dishonesty, either.  I stand by my statement.  Harsh.


We owned rental property for a few years and paid taxes on it to the letter. Anecdote refuted!


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## rickandcindy23

I pay income taxes on my rental income.  I claim every dime of my income.


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## CO skier

dioxide45 said:


> Can owners still not rent unlimited reservations that were made inside of the home resort priority. I can see Wyndham setting rules for reservations made inside of Club Wyndham, which is technically an exchange company, but if you make a reservation at your home resort, could they limit that too?


No, if an owner is renting their deeded, fixed week.

Yes, absolutely yes Wyndham can limit reservations at a home resort, if booking reservations using Home Resort Undivided Interest *points* (not weeks) in the 10-13 months booking window (this is where megarenters operate), because those points are part of and subject to the Club Wyndham Program terms and conditions, which prohibits "Commercial Uses."  I am confident every owner who bought UDI points, signed and agreed to the "Personal Use" provision.

My deed, where I have ARP, is only for UDI points.  It references the specific interval associated with those points, but I have no ability to preferentially reserve that time block and rent it.


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## CO skier

troy12n said:


> I can't be sad for someone who bought a million points retail, then 80 million resale points for a couple grand giving their resale points back because they can no longer run their most likely completely illegitimate business... gaming the VIP system to the extreme. You know, the one they aren't paying taxes on and all that.





am1 said:


> Why would one not pay taxes on earned income?


What percentage of taxpayers do you think pay taxes on income for which they do not receive a 1099 form?

Wyndham does not send out any 1099s for private rentals in Club Wyndham.


There a plenty of honest renters who report their income; there are plenty of renters who do not, because there is no 1099 form issued.


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## rickandcindy23

CO skier said:


> What percentage of taxpayers do you think pay taxes on income for which they do not receive a 1099 form?
> 
> Wyndham does not send out any 1099s for private rentals in Club Wyndham.
> 
> 
> There a plenty of honest renters who report their income; there are plenty of renters who do not, because there is no 1099 form issued.


But money goes through your account somehow, and that is all something you cannot lie about.  This is why we originally set up a special account, so we could follow it easier for claiming on our income tax.  I wouldn't want to undergo an audit and have the IRS agent look at those numbers and wonder about it.  We have a Tax ID number associated with our account as a business.


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## troy12n

rickandcindy23 said:


> But money goes through your account somehow, and that is all something you cannot lie about.  This is why we originally set up a special account, so we could follow it easier for claiming on our income tax.  I wouldn't want to undergo an audit and have the IRS agent look at those numbers and wonder about it.  We have a Tax ID number associated with our account as a business.



Yep, everyone pays the piper eventually... i'm not wasting effort trying to argue with someone whose logic is "well if it's not on a 1099"... come on now. Unfortunately a huge number of people do this


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## dgalati

troy12n said:


> Yep, everyone pays the piper eventually... i'm not wasting effort trying to argue with someone whose logic is "well if it's not on a 1099"... come on now. Unfortunately a huge number of people do this


Come on now. I'm sure you have bought something online and didn't pay the state sales tax. Unfortunately a huge number of people do this also. Florida counts on a sales tax to fund infrastructure. Not paying sales tax is probably why they don't have enough funds to plan for growth.


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## Lisa P

lost patience said:


> I think I would be pretty upset if I was told I could not rent my house.


Actually, many HOA's only allow for a limited percentage of the neighborhood to be rented out. When we closed on our condo, we signed agreement with the bylaws that had such a restriction and we appreciate the reasons for it. Even if you don't have such restrictions on the use of your home, but you _co-own_ your home with dozens, hundreds, even thousands of other owners, why would you be upset at being told you could not rent it out whenever and wherever you want? I'm okay to take one (inconvenience) for the team... and choose an unrestricted time to give to family, friends, or a renter.


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## dioxide45

Lisa P said:


> Actually, many HOA's only allow for a limited percentage of the neighborhood to be rented out. When we closed on our condo, we signed agreement with the bylaws that had such a restriction and we appreciate the reasons for it. Even if you don't have such restrictions on the use of your home, but you _co-own_ your home with dozens, hundreds, even thousands of other owners, why would you be upset at being told you could not rent it out whenever and wherever you want? I'm okay to take one (inconvenience) for the team... and choose an unrestricted time to give to family, friends, or a renter.


Many condos end up with a lot of non resident owners. Really just owners buying for rental property. If that type of ownership hits a certain percentage for the entire condo, many lenders won't approve the condo and new buyers can't get financing.


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## am1

dioxide45 said:


> Many condos end up with a lot of non resident owners. Really just owners buying for rental property. If that type of ownership hits a certain percentage for the entire condo, many lenders won't approve the condo and new buyers can't get financing.



All non issues when it comes to timeshares and when the rules allow renting.


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## troy12n

Lisa P said:


> Actually, many HOA's only allow for a limited percentage of the neighborhood to be rented out. When we closed on our condo, we signed agreement with the bylaws that had such a restriction and we appreciate the reasons for it. Even if you don't have such restrictions on the use of your home, but you _co-own_ your home with dozens, hundreds, even thousands of other owners, why would you be upset at being told you could not rent it out whenever and wherever you want? I'm okay to take one (inconvenience) for the team... and choose an unrestricted time to give to family, friends, or a renter.



My folks live in a condo whose HOA covenants explicitly forbid subletting/renting as well as short term rentals like AirBNB. My (deed restricted) community I live in only allows a certain percentage of (single family) homes to be rentals. And it's actively enforced.


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## dgalati

troy12n said:


> You have no evidence of this, yet continue to use this forum as your soapbox in your personal vendetta against Wyndham...
> 
> I see Wyndham cracking down on mega renters (the real ones) if it's even happening, as a net win for all owners.
> 
> I can't be sad for someone who bought a million points retail, then 80 million resale points for a couple grand giving their resale points back because they can no longer run their most likely completely illegitimate business... gaming the VIP system to the extreme. You know, the one they aren't paying taxes on and all that.


I actually feel bad for any owner that bought developer and was promised the ability to rent and pay all maintenance fees. But on the resale points being used with VIP benefits and discounts I do agree its a loophole that has been abused. This allows owners to run a rental business at the expense of owners looking to book for personal use. Here is another question for you to ponder   Would it matter if they bought all their points from the developer? I wonder if Wyndham gives some consideration to owners that are renting commercially but bought 3-4 million points at developer pricing.


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## 55plus

If Wyndham eliminates renting altogether some to most of the VIP owned resale points become useless to the those who rent on a large scale. To cut those maintenance fee costs they can apply for certified exit to cut those expenses. Win win for everyone.


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## dgalati

55plus said:


> If Wyndham eliminates renting altogether some to most of the VIP owned resale point become useless to the those who rent on a large scale. To cut those maintenance fee costs they can apply for certified exit to cut those expenses. Win win for everyone.


l may also buy a few more points if owning becomes cheaper then renting. If people can no longer rent cheaper then paying maintenance fees it may create a whole new subset of buyers.
Let me clarify "BUY" All resale points at less then a $100. The $100 Purchase price would include transfer costs and resort transfer fee.


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## HitchHiker71

55plus said:


> I think someone's wholly owned home or vacation home is different than fractional ownership. In this case Wyndham is the referee and it's their game, but the owners' own the court. I understand both sides of the issue.



IIRC fractional real estate ownership only applies to the more traditional weeks based timeshare ownerships.  UDI is "right to use" and is not a fractional ownership system as a result.  The "right to use" is largely defined by the club with respect to the exchange mechanisms, in our case CWP, and is subject to change over time at the sole discretion of Wyndham.  Technically a CWS owner can be banned from the CWP club - meaning they cannot use CWP to exchange their UDI "right to use" CWS contract at any other Wyndham CWP location - but they can still use their CWS points at their home resort - and only at their home resort once divorced from CWP.  Usually the impacted owner would choose to relinquish their CWS contract once this occurs of course, given their ability to vacation at other Wyndham resorts has been cut off.  I'm not sure how a CWA owner would be impacted in this use case - given CWA contract owners don't have a single home resort.


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## 55plus

HitchHiker71 said:


> IIRC fractional real estate ownership only applies to the more traditional weeks based timeshare ownerships.  UDI is "right to use" and is not a fractional ownership system as a result.  The "right to use" is largely defined by the club with respect to the exchange mechanisms, in our case CWP, and is subject to change over time at the sole discretion of Wyndham.  Technically a CWS owner can be banned from the CWP club - meaning they cannot use CWP to exchange their UDI "right to use" CWS contract at any other Wyndham CWP location - but they can still use their CWS points at their home resort - and only at their home resort once divorced from CWP.  Usually the impacted owner would choose to relinquish their CWS contract once this occurs of course, given their ability to vacation at other Wyndham resorts has been cut off.  I'm not sure how a CWA owner would be impacted in this use case - given CWA contract owners don't have a single home resort.


If this were to become policy for owner who violate the rules, this alone would make an owner think about renting to others or becoming a renter in the future.


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## joestein

troy12n said:


> My previous executive Director (who just retired) owned like 8 rental properties, bragged about not paying taxes on any of his rental income, also was one of these people who voted exclusively for the candidate that promised to keep taxes low, cut programs, etc... on income he didn't even report. You know the type. Truth be known, he spent most of his time "at work" managing his properties and looking for new ones, but that's another story.




That makes no sense.    If you own real estate and rent it out, you can deduct your expenses including interest and deprecation.  Many renters can have a loss which will result in lower taxes.   Why would someone not take advantage of that.  

Plus, all the deposits into their accounts are records of the rents.  If they are audited, the interest and penalties will bankrupt them.  And they brag about this?


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## Eric B

joestein said:


> Why would someone not take advantage of that.



Passive activity loss limitations.


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## joestein

Eric B said:


> Passive activity loss limitations.


It is still 25K if the person has under $100K in wages.


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## dgalati

joestein said:


> That makes no sense.    If you own real estate and rent it out, you can deduct your expenses including interest and deprecation.  Many renters can have a loss which will result in lower taxes.   Why would someone not take advantage of that.
> 
> Plus, all the deposits into their accounts are records of the rents.  If they are audited, the interest and penalties will bankrupt them.  And they brag about this?


You would think a executive director would have more smarts then that. Makes me wonder what kind of person would work for a boss like that?


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## Eric B

joestein said:


> It is still 25K if the person has under $100K in wages.



Actually, it's for under $100K in modified adjusted gross income (MAGI), not just wages, and there's a phase out as MAGI rises. The tax rules and accounting get a bit complex, and can be more effort than it's worth for the tax savings that might be available.  IMHO, it doesn't take a lot of examination to figure out that it might not really be worth someone's time to see if any tax savings are available if they're doing a minor amount of renting and not making a profit.  Bottom line - you had asked why someone would not take advantage of the [the tax benefits]; that's the reason I don't.

IRS Publication 527 has some discussion on the impacts of a presumption of rental for profit and the ability to deduct expenses; if you aren't renting for profit, you can simplify meeting the filing requirements to the point that it's pretty trivial.  If you're making profits from renting, there are more obligations of course, though many people historically underreport the income.  I can only imagine what the paperwork involved in accounting and tax reporting for ~150 short-term rentals properly must be, not to mention the complexity of the regulations.


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## troy12n

joestein said:


> It is still 25K if the person has under $100K in wages.



The person in question made well over 150k in salary. I also got the impression most of his transactions were cash... what he did with it is anyone's guess. Can't answer anything else


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## HitchHiker71

troy12n said:


> My previous executive Director (who just retired) owned like 8 rental properties, bragged about not paying taxes on any of his rental income, also was one of these people who voted exclusively for the candidate that promised to keep taxes low, cut programs, etc... on income he didn't even report. You know the type. Truth be known, he spent most of his time "at work" managing his properties and looking for new ones, but that's another story.



Not having been there to witness the conversation, I have no idea what your director did.  But, given I own a few rental properties myself, it's not at all uncommon to run a loss on paper for each property - especially for the first several years if you're using accelerated depreciation schedules, along with deducting mortgage interest, insurance, property taxes,  and any/all property maintenance expenses, including turnover expenses.  One of my properties has been a rental since 2009 and I _still _had a net loss last year due to property turnover along with a few decent sized repair expenses. It doesn't make much given individual properties don't generate much income overall. The property I'm referring to only generates about 20k per year if it's rented for the entirety of the calendar year. If it's a turnover year - like this year - I usually lose about two months of net monthly rent - which drops it down to under 17k per year easily - couple that with all of the deductions - it's not hard to generate a net loss. My accelerated depreciation will stop in 2024 though - after which this property will start turning a consistent annual profit - which means it'll be time to perform a 1031 exchange.


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## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> Not having been there to witness the conversation, I have no idea what your director did.  But, given I own a few rental properties myself, it's not at all uncommon to run a loss on paper for each property - especially for the first several years if you're using accelerated depreciation schedules, along with deducting mortgage interest, insurance, property taxes,  and any/all property maintenance expenses, including turnover expenses.  One of my properties has been a rental since 2009 and I _still _had a net loss last year due to property turnover along with a few decent sized repair expenses. It doesn't make much given individual properties don't generate much income overall. The property I'm referring to only generates about 20k per year if it's rented for the entirety of the calendar year. If it's a turnover year - like this year - I usually lose about two months of net monthly rent - which drops it down to under 17k per year easily - couple that with all of the deductions - it's not hard to generate a net loss. My accelerated depreciation will stop in 2024 though - after which this property will start turning a consistent annual profit - which means it'll be time to perform a 1031 exchange.


The best part of owning rental property is the appreciation and principle reduction that the rent is covering. The last 4-6 years appreciation has been off the charts.


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## troy12n

dgalati said:


> You would think a executive director would have more smarts then that. Makes me wonder what kind of person would work for a boss like that?



The kind of person who values a stable, good, well paying job who can deal with an unscrupulous executive director who I didn't have to interface with much... 

My immediate manager and co-workers are good, if I had to interface with this previous director more, it would be a different story. The guy who replaced him is just as much of a dingleberry, in different ways


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## dgalati

troy12n said:


> The kind of person who values a stable, good, well paying job who can deal with an unscrupulous executive director who I didn't have to interface with much...
> 
> My immediate manager and co-workers are good, if I had to interface with this previous director more, it would be a different story. The guy who replaced him is just as much of a dingleberry, in different ways


Define dingleberry? Are you refering to a fruit, a stupid inept person or what hangs from a dogs behind?


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## Cyrus24

HitchHiker71 said:


> which means it'll be time to perform a 1031 exchange.


Swap 'til you Drop.  But, be ready, tax laws are about to see substantial change and 'loopholes' for real estate holdings (perceived to be held by the rich) will be high on the list for closure.


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## joestein

HitchHiker71 said:


> Not having been there to witness the conversation, I have no idea what your director did.  But, given I own a few rental properties myself, it's not at all uncommon to run a loss on paper for each property - especially for the first several years if you're using accelerated depreciation schedules, along with deducting mortgage interest, insurance, property taxes,  and any/all property maintenance expenses, including turnover expenses.  One of my properties has been a rental since 2009 and I _still _had a net loss last year due to property turnover along with a few decent sized repair expenses. It doesn't make much given individual properties don't generate much income overall. The property I'm referring to only generates about 20k per year if it's rented for the entirety of the calendar year. If it's a turnover year - like this year - I usually lose about two months of net monthly rent - which drops it down to under 17k per year easily - couple that with all of the deductions - it's not hard to generate a net loss. My accelerated depreciation will stop in 2024 though - after which this property will start turning a consistent annual profit - which means it'll be time to perform a 1031 exchange.



If 1031 is still available.  They are discussing eliminating it.


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## joestein

Cyrus24 said:


> Swap 'til you Drop.  But, be ready, tax laws are about to see substantial change and 'loopholes' for real estate holdings (perceived to be held by the rich) will be high on the list for closure.


They do benefit the rich in many cases.   Most middleclass or poor people don't own rental properties.   Some people do save and invest, but it primarily benefits the top.


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## dgalati

joestein said:


> They do benefit the rich in many cases.   Most middleclass or poor people don't own rental properties.   Some people do save and invest, but it primarily benefits the top.


If you invest and stick your neck out on the line why shouldn't it benefit? Most rich people became rich investing in themselves  and risking their life savings. Oh yeah and by the way they pay taxes on the gains to their silent partner Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam gives tax breaks and encourages investment knowing it helps create jobs and taxes are generated from it.


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## troy12n

dgalati said:


> If you invest and stick your neck out on the line why shouldn't it benefit? Most rich people became rich investing in themselves  and risking their life savings. Oh yeah and by the way they pay taxes on the gains to their silent partner Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam gives tax breaks and encourages investment knowing it helps create jobs and taxes are generated from it.



Most people became rich by inheriting it, some of them actually stay rich by investing wisely and not blowing it. Some don't. Certainly some do get rich from hard work and risk, but those people are in the minority.


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## dgalati

troy12n said:


> Most people became rich by inheriting it, some of them actually stay rich by investing wisely and not blowing it. Some don't. Certainly some do get rich from hard work and risk, but those people are in the minority.


Well I guess I am in the minority. Hard work staying married and living within my means helped but luck also played a part in it. The harder I worked the luckier I got!


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## dioxide45

troy12n said:


> Most people became rich by inheriting it, some of them actually stay rich by investing wisely and not blowing it. Some don't. Certainly some do get rich from hard work and risk, but those people are in the minority.


You may want to do some simple searches on this to "fact check" your claims. A big percentage of the wealthiest people have self made wealth, not inherited wealth.









						Nearly 68% of the world's richest people are 'self-made,' says new report
					

A new report from Wealth-X says only 8.5% of the world's ultra-high-net-worth population — individuals with $30 million or more in net worth — inherited their money.




					www.cnbc.com
				












						How Many Millionaires Actually Inherited Their Wealth?
					

Our research team here at Ramsey Solutions conducted the largest study ever done on millionaires, and we uncovered the truth about how these men and women built their wealth.




					www.ramseysolutions.com


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## dgalati

dioxide45 said:


> You may want to do some simple searches on this to "fact check" your claims. A big percentage of the wealthiest people have self made wealth, not inherited wealth.
> 
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> Nearly 68% of the world's richest people are 'self-made,' says new report
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> A new report from Wealth-X says only 8.5% of the world's ultra-high-net-worth population — individuals with $30 million or more in net worth — inherited their money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> How Many Millionaires Actually Inherited Their Wealth?
> 
> 
> Our research team here at Ramsey Solutions conducted the largest study ever done on millionaires, and we uncovered the truth about how these men and women built their wealth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ramseysolutions.com


I think inheriting wealth is the plan for most of the millennials. A big majority don't want to work 40 hours a week let alone the 60-70 hour work weeks my parents worked and instilled in me.


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## joestein

dgalati said:


> If you invest and stick your neck out on the line why shouldn't it benefit? Most rich people became rich investing in themselves  and risking their life savings. Oh yeah and by the way they pay taxes on the gains to their silent partner Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam gives tax breaks and encourages investment knowing it helps create jobs and taxes are generated from it.



Actually in this case we are talking about a 1031 exchange which is a deferral of taxes on capital gains associated with RE investments if you re-invest those gains into like kind RE.

You mentioned paying taxes on the gains to Uncle Sam, but deferral is exactly the opposite.  No taxes are paid in this case, the gain reduces the basis of the exchange property.

Now think about this.   A person buy a  building for $25MM in the 80's.   Today that building is worth $500MM with annual rents that probably exceed the purchase price.   They can sell this building and invest in another building or a whole portfolio of buildings with the proceeds and not pay any capital gains tax.  Then they die and their heirs get the properties at the stepped up basis.     They estate still has to pay estate tax.   However, investors of this size are savvy enough to set up other ways to mitigate the tax.  (life insurance, debt provided by heirs, etc).

And since we are on the topic - I am a believer that capital gains should be taxed much higher and wage income lower.   People live on wage, interest (or used to at one time) and dividend income.    Not on capital gains.


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## Eric B

joestein said:


> Now think about this. A person buy a building for $25MM in the 80's. Today that building is worth $500MM with annual rents that probably exceed the purchase price.



Also think about this - the change in the market price of the building from $25MM to $500MM is partly driven by inflation rather than something unique to the building.  As a result, the purchasing power of the $25MM in the 80s would be something like the equivalent of $82.43MM today.  (See, e.g., https://www.usinflationcalculator.com).  There may be other externalities effecting the market price as well as capital investments over the years that you haven't considered contributing to the change.  Bottom line, in any case, is that a capital asset's change in value in current terms isn't truly a great reflection of a capital gain for the owner, although by policy the government treats it as though it is if the asset is sold, taxing the difference between the sale price and the purchase price.  There are a lot of other complications like depreciation and depreciation recapture taxes, but it's not as simple as the sound bites you hear from both sides of the argument on how unfair the system is.


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## rickandcindy23

The last several posts were totally off subject.


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## TravelTime

dgalati said:


> Come on now. I'm sure you have bought something online and didn't pay the state sales tax. Unfortunately a huge number of people do this also. Florida counts on a sales tax to fund infrastructure. Not paying sales tax is probably why they don't have enough funds to plan for growth.



Florida does not have enough funds to plan for growth because of many reasons. One top reason is the lack of state income tax. Another is the type of government than runs Florida. A third is Florida has always been a lawless state with many unscrupulous people. Disclaimer: I grew up in Miami. Florida’s sales tax is pretty low for all it needs to get done.


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## troy12n

TravelTime said:


> Florida does not have enough funds to plan for growth because of many reasons. One top reason is the lack of state income tax. *Another is the type of government than runs Florida*. A third is Florida has always been a lawless state with many unscrupulous people. Disclaimer: I grew up in Miami. Florida’s sales tax is pretty low for all it needs to get done.



Yeah, our legislature and governors have been a complete joke since the early 2000's... what we need is a heavy "migration tax" for anyone who moves here from out of state


----------



## TravelTime

CO skier said:


> What percentage of taxpayers do you think pay taxes on income for which they do not receive a 1099 form?
> 
> Wyndham does not send out any 1099s for private rentals in Club Wyndham.
> 
> 
> There a plenty of honest renters who report their income; there are plenty of renters who do not, because there is no 1099 form issued.



How would Wyndham send out 1099s for rental income if they do not know how much the renters paid? Technically Wyndham has nothing to do with this except to enforce it is not allowed if they catch someone doing it. I send out 1099s to companies/individuals who I pay through my business. So if a 1099 were required, it would seem it would be the renter sending a 1099 to the Wyndham owner indicating how much they paid. This is never going to happen.


----------



## Eric B

rickandcindy23 said:


> The last several posts were totally off subject.


----------



## troy12n

TravelTime said:


> How would Wyndham send out 1099s for rental income if they do not know how much the renters paid? Technically Wyndham has nothing to do with this except to enforce it is not allowed if they catch someone doing it. I send out 1099s to companies/individuals who I pay through my business. So if a 1099 were required, it would seem it would be the renter sending a 1099 to the Wyndham owner indicating how much they paid. This is never going to happen.



Come on now, you know you have the ability to "self report" income. You don't need a 1099. You also know that, if audited, any auditor would see right through that argument and you would be on the hook for some serious back taxes and penalties. Am I naïve enough to say that a lot of people report any penny of income? Of course not, but when you are talking about thousands of dollars in what is for all intents and purposes a side business, then i'm not going to try to argue with someone who thinks it's ok to just not pay those taxes, that's ignorant


----------



## TravelTime

troy12n said:


> Come on now, you know you have the ability to "self report" income. You don't need a 1099. You also know that, if audited, any auditor would see right through that argument and you would be on the hook for some serious back taxes and penalties. Am I naïve enough to say that a lot of people report any penny of income? Of course not, but when you are talking about thousands of dollars in what is for all intents and purposes a side business, then i'm not going to try to argue with someone who thinks it's ok to just not pay those taxes, that's ignorant



Not sure why you are replaying to me about this. I think you misread what I wrote.


----------



## Mongoose

Any idea if they are just doing this on the Wyndam side or also on the Worldmark brand?  What about Shell?


----------



## dgalati

Mongoose said:


> Any idea if they are just doing this on the Wyndam side or also on the Worldmark brand?  What about Shell?


Eventually if needed.


----------



## Cyrus24

Let’s get back to discussing what a mega-renter is and what Wyndham considers a commercial renter.  I like seeing opinions, especially enjoy comments from those who think they have a legitimate reason for renting while criticizing others who rent.


----------



## dgalati

Cyrus24 said:


> Let’s get back to discussing what a mega-renter is and what Wyndham considers a commercial renter.  I like seeing opinions, especially enjoy comments from those who think they have a legitimate reason for renting while criticizing others who rent.


Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.


----------



## 55plus

Cyrus24 said:


> Let’s get back to discussing what a mega-renter is and what Wyndham considers a commercial renter.  I like seeing opinions, especially enjoy comments from those who think they have a legitimate reason for renting while criticizing others who rent.


If someone has reservations listed for sale prior to Wyndham's 15 day drop dead date, they are involved in commercial activity which is in direct violation of the policy spelled out in the Wyndham directory. In other words, any reservation for sale prior to the 15 day cancellation drop dead date is definitely commercial activity.


----------



## Mongoose

Cyrus24 said:


> Let’s get back to discussing what a mega-renter is and what Wyndham considers a commercial renter.  I like seeing opinions, especially enjoy comments from those who think they have a legitimate reason for renting while criticizing others who rent.


Something like - Elite status and rent more than 75% of the time for two consecutive years. OR Operate with multiple addresses and rent more than 75% of the time for two consecutive years.


----------



## Mongoose

LOL,  If Wyndham really wants to shut this down they should just make referrals to the IRS for anyone that rents more than 10 weeks per year.


----------



## rapmarks

joestein said:


> It is still 25K if the person has under $100K in wages.


All income, we cannot deduct any losses on our rental property


----------



## Cyrus24

55plus said:


> If someone has reservations listed for sale prior to Wyndham's 15 day drop dead date, they are involved in commercial activity which is in direct violation of the policy spelled out in the Wyndham directory. In other words, any reservation for sale prior to the 15 day cancellation drop dead date is definitely commercial activity.


And this is what is entertaining.  You make the rule to satisfy your reason for renting.  At least you say it was your logic.  Who would know?  If all GC’s are applied within 15 days and there is no visible advertising, it’s ok to rent?  Hmmm.  Wyndham has a line and I suspect it’s based on the number of purchased GC’s, only.  I doubt that anyone using only allotted GC’s will see a letter.


----------



## Eric B

What about folks that have points protection on a reservation and advertise it at the 10 day point, but can cancel it up to 24 hours in advance of check in and recoup the points?  Is that commercial activity because they don't have as much risk of loss?


----------



## dgalati

I think this thread has run its course.
No need to keep beating this dead horse.
I have asked the moderators to shut this thread down.
Off topic threads  just make me frown.


----------



## troy12n

Eric B said:


> What about folks that have points protection on a reservation and advertise it at the 10 day point, but can cancel it up to 24 hours in advance of check in and recoup the points?  Is that commercial activity because they don't have as much risk of loss?



I call that "grasping at straws" to try to find a way to support your behavior


----------



## Cyrus24

dgalati said:


> I think this thread has run its course.
> No need to keep beating this dead horse.
> I have asked the moderators to shut this thread down.
> Off topic threads  just make me frown.


We need to find out what Wyndham considers a MegaRenter.  Threads like this help us get to that point of understanding.  Just hit the unwatch button.


----------



## troy12n

Cyrus24 said:


> We need to find out what Wyndham considers a MegaRenter.  Threads like this help us get to that point of understanding.  Just hit the unwatch button.



I think his issue is, he created this forum thread and it's gone off in a different direction than anticipated


----------



## Eric B

troy12n said:


> I call that "grasping at straws" to try to find a way to support your behavior



It's actually called reductio ad absurdum.  I was using it as a method to show that classifying something as commercial usage based on an arbitrary criterion like the 15-day cancellation deadline is probably not an appropriate decision.

Not really sure what behavior of mine it would support.


----------



## dgalati

troy12n said:


> I think his issue is, he created this forum thread and it's gone off in a different direction than anticipated


No its gone just as I anticipated. Everyone including yourself are justifying that their or occasional rentals are not considered commercial use. No one really answered the question.  Is Wyndham really out to eliminate mega renters. I think We need more data from owners that recieved letters.


----------



## Cyrus24

It could be that they are out to eliminate ALL Guest Certificates.  Since we (and seemingly them) have no idea what is commercial, one could argue that all  GC's are commercial.  OUCH, what a mess that would be, for some owners.


----------



## dgalati

Cyrus24 said:


> It could be that they are out to eliminate ALL Guest Certificates.  Since we (and seemingly them) have no idea what is commercial, one could argue that all  GC's are commercial.  OUCH, what a mess that would be, for some owners.


Wyndham could eliminate all GC's used with resale points if they want to free up availability.  They could also eliminate GC's with resale points that are used with VIP discounts  and free upgrades.  The second option would eliminate a lot of rentals and probably free up double the number of points for owners to book for personal use.


----------



## dioxide45

troy12n said:


> Yeah, our legislature and governors have been a complete joke since the early 2000's... what we need is a heavy "migration tax" for anyone who moves here from out of state


There already is a heavy fee to register an out of state vehicle when coming in from out of state. To register our two cars and get our Florida drivers license, it cost over $1100.


----------



## troy12n

dgalati said:


> No its gone just as I anticipated. Everyone *including yourself are justifying that their or occasional rentals* are not considered commercial use. No one really answered the question.  Is Wyndham really out to eliminate mega renters. I think We need more data from owners that recieved letters.



I've never once rented. I've actually never even used a GC at all. I was Platinum temporarily for 2 years because of bonus points I got and never used one, and lost somewhere on the order of 30 of them this past new use year because I guess they don't roll over. I didn't really care, because I dont use them. 

So it's inaccurate to say i've justified *MY* use of them. I just said I can understand *limited* renting to offset a certain amount of MF. Definitely 130 is way beyond that, under any circumstance.


----------



## Cyrus24

dgalati said:


> Wyndham could eliminate all GC's used with resale points if they want to free up availability.  They could also eliminate GC's with resale points that are used with VIP discounts  and free upgrades.  The second option would eliminate a lot of rentals and probably free up double the number of points for owners to book for personal use.


Their incompetent IT department could NEVER get this programmed.  Best just to eliminate C's altogether.  They can't prove commercial operations.  So, leave the GC system alone, or get rid of them altogether.


----------



## tschwa2

Cyrus24 said:


> Their incompetent IT department could NEVER get this programmed.  Best just to eliminate C's altogether.  They can't prove commercial operations.  So, leave the GC system alone, or get rid of them altogether.


To do this they could start another CWA type trust that doesn't combine with current accounts.  They take back a lot of units through certified exit so while it would take awhile they could program that only retail CWA2 points get guest certs and can be combined with current accounts and and resale CWA2 points don't get guest certs and can't be combined and have to be set up as a separate account.   It would actually make deeded and regular CWA points a little more valuable on the resale market.


----------



## dgalati

tschwa2 said:


> To do this they could start another CWA type trust that doesn't combine with current accounts.  They take back a lot of units through certified exit so while it would take awhile they could program that only retail CWA2 points get guest certs and can be combined with current accounts and and resale CWA2 points don't get guest certs and can't be combined and have to be set up as a separate account.   It would actually make deeded and regular CWA points a little more valuable on the resale market.


Deeded and CWA resale contracts will only become more valuble when Wyndham starts paying more then $0/1000 with Certified exit! They squeezed out the exit teams and helped themselves by taking back for free and not charging a fee.


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> Deeded and CWA resale contracts will only become more valuble when Wyndham starts paying more then $0/1000 with Certified exit! They squeezed out the exit teams and helped themselves by taking back for free and not charging a fee.


Smart business move - something of value for nothing. I'm surprised they didn't start this many years ago.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> Smart business move - something of value for nothing. I'm surprised they didn't start this many years ago.


A business model that many companies could only dream of.


----------



## Armada

Think this is a mega-renter getting out? Over 7mm points for sale. Only two other recent listings so this is not one of the regular broker sellers on ebay.
Ebay


----------



## 55plus

If you are referring to 'Sue0067ult' on eBay, then I believe the answer is, yes.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> If you are referring to 'Sue0067ult' on eBay, then I believe the answer is, yes.


A few 1 million plus contracts advertised on TUG Market place also. Price a little to high IMHO. You can pick up 3-4 contracts easily for under 1k all in and still own 1 million points. Plus its harder to play the ARP booking at only 1 resort where 3-4 contracts will give you availability at 3-4 different resorts. If your lucky you may find a contract or 2 with reciprocal ARP  at another resort as a bonus. 





						Wyndham points For Sale By Owner
					

Wyndham points For Sale.  Incredible Savings up to 99% off Vacation Timeshare Resales by Owner in



					tug2.com


----------



## rickandcindy23

This ebay option is looking okay to me, especially if Wyndham won't take back our contracts.  Sounds like they are being picky about what they will take through Ovations.


----------



## dgalati

rickandcindy23 said:


> This ebay option is looking okay to me, especially if Wyndham won't take back our contracts.  Sounds like they are being picky about what they will take through Ovations.


If you recieved a letter and they make you a deal to take back points let Wyndham have them. The additional time to transfer 3rd party will cost more then what you will receive on the additional maintenance fees paid. Anyone know what the transfer times are today? Ovations is usually a quick process of about 4 weeks from start to finish. Unlike a third party sale that can take up to 2-6 months longer.


----------



## rickandcindy23

dgalati said:


> If you recieved a letter and they make you a deal to take back points let Wyndham have them. The additional time to transfer 3rd party will cost more then what you will receive on the additional maintenance fees paid. Anyone know what the transfer times are today? Ovations is usually a quick process of about 4 weeks from start to finish. Unlike a third party sale that can take up to 2-6 months longer.


They will want all or nothing.  I am thinking of keeping the platinum and giving back the rest.  That won't be a deal they will take, in my opinion.


----------



## 55plus

I wonder how many of these mega renters, or any renters for that matter are getting out of Wyndham altogether? I assume some who are VIP will keep the VIP ownership while other VIPs will leave Wyndham altogether. I wonder how many stand alone VIP deeds/contracts are list for sale now as large deeds/contracts?


----------



## dgalati

rickandcindy23 said:


> They will want all or nothing.  I am thinking of keeping the platinum and giving back the rest.  That won't be a deal they will take, in my opinion.


It doesn't cost anything to try and negotiate.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

rickandcindy23 said:


> This ebay option is looking okay to me, especially if Wyndham won't take back our contracts.  Sounds like they are being picky about what they will take through Ovations.



Just a thought -
Cindy - you may be able to give some away on TUG with a split of MF / transfer time costs  -  in part because of your reputation.

Some TUG members who own other systems and have rented Wyndham - but don't need until 2022 could have an interest .


----------



## tschwa2

rickandcindy23 said:


> They will want all or nothing.  I am thinking of keeping the platinum and giving back the rest.  That won't be a deal they will take, in my opinion.


They aren't being super picky.  To use limited editions they make you get rid of everything.  With the you get nothing they will tell you which they will take and it might be everything or it might be select.  You could then determine if it would be better to bundle some of the ones that they would take back with ones they won't to sell on ebay or give away or if you still could easily enough sell/give away just the ones (if any) that wyndham won't take.


----------



## troy12n

rickandcindy23 said:


> They will want all or nothing.  I am thinking of keeping the platinum and giving back the rest.  That won't be a deal they will take, in my opinion.



I have no idea what's in your portfolio, but it's a given that Wyndham will take back any Access contracts you have.

Also in demand deeded locations like BC, Clearwater, NH, Canterbury, South Shore, Midtown 45, anywhere in Newport, RI

I think if you own something like Fairfield Bay, or New Bern, that might be problematic. Maybe even places like the Glade, and some of the older Fairfield properties like Sapphire Valley and Lake Lure. But I would be surprised if they give you too much hassle at locales that are always hopping.

Also unless things  have changed, it should not be an "all or nothing" situation.


----------



## dgalati

troy12n said:


> I have no idea what's in your portfolio, but it's a given that Wyndham will take back any Access contracts you have.
> 
> Also in demand deeded locations like BC, Clearwater, NH, Canterbury, South Shore, Midtown 45, anywhere in Newport, RI
> 
> I think if you own something like Fairfield Bay, or New Bern, that might be problematic. Maybe even places like the Glade, and some of the older Fairfield properties like Sapphire Valley and Lake Lure. But I would be surprised if they give you too much hassle at locales that are always hopping.
> 
> Also unless things  have changed, it should not be an "all or nothing" situation.


What about National Harbor?


----------



## rickandcindy23

I don't own the popular resorts listed by you all.  I own mostly Kingsgate, Fairfield Bay (AR), and Smoky Mountains.  I am one of those who thinks that maybe selling all of the Kingsgate together, the Fairfield Bay together, and the Smoky Mountains together, that would be ideal for selling easily and quickly.  Those would be around 1,000,000 each bunch, I think.  Maybe not as much Smoky Mountains.  Not Wyndham Club Access, these are all resale.  

I would definitely sell my Bali Hai, which is Club Access.  But what does that matter with a resale?


----------



## rickandcindy23

dgalati said:


> It doesn't cost anything to try and negotiate.


I will wait until after the audit.


----------



## dgalati

rickandcindy23 said:


> I will wait until after the audit.


Consider it a chess match but realize they have more Queens and Rooks. Play the hand that your given but fold when the odds are stacked against you. Wyndham will negotiate but you have to back up what you holding.


----------



## troy12n

dgalati said:


> What about National Harbor?





troy12n said:


> Also in demand deeded locations like BC, Clearwater, *NH*, Canterbury, South Shore, Midtown 45, anywhere in Newport, RI



NH = National Harbor


----------



## ronparise

am1 said:


> Why would one not pay taxes on earned income?



or unearned income


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> What percentage of taxpayers do you think pay taxes on income for which they do not receive a 1099 form?
> 
> Wyndham does not send out any 1099s for private rentals in Club Wyndham.
> 
> 
> There a plenty of honest renters who report their income; there are plenty of renters who do not, because there is no 1099 form issued.



Why would Wyndham send me a 1099?  Wyndham didnt pay me. Most of my customers paid me with a credit card and I used PayPal to process those payments. PayPal does generate  a 1099k.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> No, if an owner is renting their deeded, fixed week.
> 
> Yes, absolutely yes Wyndham can limit reservations at a home resort, if booking reservations using Home Resort Undivided Interest *points* (not weeks) in the 10-13 months booking window (this is where megarenters operate), because those points are part of and subject to the Club Wyndham Program terms and conditions, which prohibits "Commercial Uses."  I am confident every owner who bought UDI points, signed and agreed to the "Personal Use" provision.
> 
> My deed, where I have ARP, is only for UDI points.  It references the specific interval associated with those points, but I have no ability to preferentially reserve that time block and rent it.




If  you have UDI points the deed does not reference a specific interval


----------



## dioxide45

ronparise said:


> Why would Wyndham send me a 1099?  Wyndham didnt pay me. Most of my customers paid me with a credit card and I used PayPal to process those payments. PayPal does generate  a 1099k.


The thresholds for a 1099k from PayPal is pretty high. I think it is $20K and 200 transactions. If you stay under at least one of them, then no 1099K. I suspect it would be easy to hit the $20K for many, but many mega renters may not go over 200 transactions.


----------



## ronparise

dgalati said:


> No its gone just as I anticipated. Everyone including yourself are justifying that their or occasional rentals are not considered commercial use. No one really answered the question.  Is Wyndham really out to eliminate mega renters. I think We need more data from owners that recieved letters.



I cant say what Wyndham wants to do now, but I can say for sure that they wanted to eliminate large scale renting since before I bought my first contracts in 2010 and I dont think anything has changed



_As early as 2005, Wyndham began to notice problems associated with allowing a group of large point owners, sometimes referred to as “Megarenters,” to run large rental businesses using Wyndham points. A Wyndham internal presentation from 2005 noted that the company supported owners running rental businesses at the time, but recommended limiting transactions and tightening rules because of the negative effects Megarenters were having on Wyndham's business. A March 2006 presentation recommended altering many of the VIP Program benefits, such as limiting the number of free guest confirmations available to VIPs, changing the VIP cancellation policy, and limiting the ability of VIPs to upgrade their rooms, in order to deal with the problems created by Megarenters.
Many of these changes were actually implemented on July 15, 2006. Among these changes were a change in the upgrade policy from allowing VIP owners to upgrade a reserved unit to the largest available unit to only allowing an upgrade to the next larger unit available. Another change was that VIPs would only receive free guest confirmations if the guest was actually traveling with a VIP member. After hearing about the potential change to the guest confirmation policy, Mr. Spearman created the Spearman Trust in order to have additional “owners” of his Wyndham Points available to check guests into resorts, and in order to “protect himself” if Wyndham “successfully put [him] out of business with one of these rule changes.” (Doc. 77–1 at 13.) However, after outcry from owners Wyndham ultimately decided not to implement the rule change regarding guest confirmations. (Id. at 12.)
Wyndham continued to implement rule changes that had the effect of restricting rental activity. In 2007, Wyndham changed the rule giving VIP owners unlimited free guest certificates to one providing a tiered system for VIP owners, starting out with 5 free guest confirmations per year and topping out with 15 free guest confirmations per year for every million points owned for VIP Platinum owners. In 2008, Wyndham made further changes, including a significant increase in the guest confirmation fee for confirmations in excess of the limited complimentary amount, changed the cancellation policy from same day to 15 day, and created a “Do Not Sell” list so that Megarenters would not be taken on tours and marketed to by Wyndham sales personnel. A Wyndham employee noted in an internal email that these changes were “implemented to impact the profitability of the Megarenter's rental activity.” (Doc. 123–31 at 3.)
Sometime in 2010, Wyndham began work on a new computer software system known as “Voyager.” The program, which has not yet been implemented, is apparently intended to more strictly enforce the existing rules and close what Wyndham views as loopholes, such as the ability to cancel and then immediately rebook a reservation. (Doc. 123–53, at 4–5.) Wyndham added a provision to the 2011–2012 member directory which stated that “The Program is for a Member's own personal use and enjoyment and not for any commercial purposes.” (Doc. 123–75 at 3.) Additionally, an enforcement provision was added, stating that “manipulation of the program rules and/or Wyndham employees to gain an unfair advantage” could result in refusal of services or access to Wyndham services and employees for a duration of time determined at Wyndham's sole discretion. (Id. at 4.)
The final relevant change came in 2012. Wyndham points contracts designate a “use year,” which is the year long term in which points could be used. Megarenters would intentionally purchase contracts with different use years, so that they would still be able to make use of points gained at the end of one contract's use year on a contract with a different use year. In 2012, Wyndham changed the rules so that all owners who had contracts with different use years would have all of their contracts converted to a single use year. In Plaintiffs' case, their contracts were all converted to a January–December use year. All of the contracts that Plaintiffs had purchased directly from Wyndham already had a January–December use year, but several of the contracts that the Plaintiffs had purchased from third parties originally had different use years.
Spearman v. Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc._, 69 F. Supp. 3d 1273, 1279-80 (N.D. Ala. 2014)


----------



## ronparise

dioxide45 said:


> The thresholds for a 1099k from PayPal is pretty high. I think it is $20K and 200 transactions. If you stay under at least one of them, then no 1099K. I suspect it would be easy to hit the $20K for many, but many mega renters may not go over 200 transactions.



I would argue that  if you dont do 200 rentals in a year you arent really a megarenter, but thats not the point. My comment was really narrow focused. Someone posted that 1099s dont  happen for megarenters.  All I was trying to say is thats not 100% true

But the fact is when it comes to business tax returns, The IRS depends on the honesty of the taxpayer.


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> Why would Wyndham send me a 1099?  Wyndham didnt pay me. Most of my customers paid me with a credit card and I used PayPal to process those payments. PayPal does generate  a 1099k.





ronparise said:


> If  you have UDI points the deed does not reference a specific interval




I thought you preferred to remain unremembered?




ronparise said:


> so when can I expect  an eviction notice?





CO skier said:


> That is a question to ask Jan M., who invoked your name.
> 
> I simply quoted your words that she must have missed.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Whoa, @ronparise I have never seen that information on the William Spearman case before now.  What happened with Kendra's case? I am trying to remember her last name.  She was living pretty fancy in a house in the hills of CO Springs but had to leave her home after Wyndham shut her down, but she still rents Wyndham, I believe.  I know she settled out of court, so maybe you don't know about that one.  

Nice to see you here.  I am glad to be getting out but keeping one VIP Platinum Founder's account.


----------



## kaljor

Agree that it's good to hear from you again.  You were a frequent poster when I looked into buying Wyndham in 2016.

I'm entirely resale, but your posts, as well as many others, let me understand the syatem completely before I laid out a dollar.  I always remember you stressing that at 10 months out, points are points.  True then, and true now.


----------



## HitchHiker71

ronparise said:


> I cant say what Wyndham wants to do now, but I can say for sure that they wanted to eliminate large scale renting since before I bought my first contracts in 2010 and I dont think anything has changed
> 
> 
> 
> _As early as 2005, Wyndham began to notice problems associated with allowing a group of large point owners, sometimes referred to as “Megarenters,” to run large rental businesses using Wyndham points. A Wyndham internal presentation from 2005 noted that the company supported owners running rental businesses at the time, but recommended limiting transactions and tightening rules because of the negative effects Megarenters were having on Wyndham's business. A March 2006 presentation recommended altering many of the VIP Program benefits, such as limiting the number of free guest confirmations available to VIPs, changing the VIP cancellation policy, and limiting the ability of VIPs to upgrade their rooms, in order to deal with the problems created by Megarenters.
> Many of these changes were actually implemented on July 15, 2006. Among these changes were a change in the upgrade policy from allowing VIP owners to upgrade a reserved unit to the largest available unit to only allowing an upgrade to the next larger unit available. Another change was that VIPs would only receive free guest confirmations if the guest was actually traveling with a VIP member. After hearing about the potential change to the guest confirmation policy, Mr. Spearman created the Spearman Trust in order to have additional “owners” of his Wyndham Points available to check guests into resorts, and in order to “protect himself” if Wyndham “successfully put [him] out of business with one of these rule changes.” (Doc. 77–1 at 13.) However, after outcry from owners Wyndham ultimately decided not to implement the rule change regarding guest confirmations. (Id. at 12.)
> Wyndham continued to implement rule changes that had the effect of restricting rental activity. In 2007, Wyndham changed the rule giving VIP owners unlimited free guest certificates to one providing a tiered system for VIP owners, starting out with 5 free guest confirmations per year and topping out with 15 free guest confirmations per year for every million points owned for VIP Platinum owners. In 2008, Wyndham made further changes, including a significant increase in the guest confirmation fee for confirmations in excess of the limited complimentary amount, changed the cancellation policy from same day to 15 day, and created a “Do Not Sell” list so that Megarenters would not be taken on tours and marketed to by Wyndham sales personnel. A Wyndham employee noted in an internal email that these changes were “implemented to impact the profitability of the Megarenter's rental activity.” (Doc. 123–31 at 3.)
> Sometime in 2010, Wyndham began work on a new computer software system known as “Voyager.” The program, which has not yet been implemented, is apparently intended to more strictly enforce the existing rules and close what Wyndham views as loopholes, such as the ability to cancel and then immediately rebook a reservation. (Doc. 123–53, at 4–5.) Wyndham added a provision to the 2011–2012 member directory which stated that “The Program is for a Member's own personal use and enjoyment and not for any commercial purposes.” (Doc. 123–75 at 3.) Additionally, an enforcement provision was added, stating that “manipulation of the program rules and/or Wyndham employees to gain an unfair advantage” could result in refusal of services or access to Wyndham services and employees for a duration of time determined at Wyndham's sole discretion. (Id. at 4.)
> The final relevant change came in 2012. Wyndham points contracts designate a “use year,” which is the year long term in which points could be used. Megarenters would intentionally purchase contracts with different use years, so that they would still be able to make use of points gained at the end of one contract's use year on a contract with a different use year. In 2012, Wyndham changed the rules so that all owners who had contracts with different use years would have all of their contracts converted to a single use year. In Plaintiffs' case, their contracts were all converted to a January–December use year. All of the contracts that Plaintiffs had purchased directly from Wyndham already had a January–December use year, but several of the contracts that the Plaintiffs had purchased from third parties originally had different use years.
> Spearman v. Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc._, 69 F. Supp. 3d 1273, 1279-80 (N.D. Ala. 2014)



Ron, thanks for sharing this excerpt - the timeline written out for the changes is most useful to help provide context to other forum members, including myself, who have loosely referenced these changes that we knew about historically - but this excerpt gives us specific details on when the changes to limit VIP benefits were made to limit megarenter functions.  This excerpt also confirms the fact that most of the whittling away of the VIP program benefits was and likely still is designed to eliminate megarenters - which is unfortunate IMHO - as the many are paying a very high price because of a selective few.  It is what it is at the end of the day of course.  Thanks again for this information, most appreciated.


----------



## ronparise

am1 said:


> Have to innovate.  When I was just breaking in and when a small timer there were mega renters who in a few years were out of the business.


When I started buying (2011) I didnt know megarenting was a thing except for that one guy that I was told about that,  managed  accounts for others  and yea, by the time i figured out what I was doing ant what they had done, they were gone


----------



## 55plus

That mega renters named, Sue with 12M plus points sold 2 of her 12 timeshares today for pennies:









						1,000,000 Wyndham Smoky  Mountain Points Annually ***NO RESERVE****  | eBay
					

Points may not show up into your account until use year starting 2022, If you receive the 2021 points, consider it a Bonus. you will be responsible for the monthly maintenance fees once transfer completes.



					www.ebay.com
				












						1,116,000 CLUB WYNDHAM POINTS,  WYNDHAM NASHVILLE-----FREE CLOSING---------  | eBay
					

Wyndham Nashville. WYNDHAM NASHVILLE. 1,116,000 WYNDHAM POINTS. Points may not show up into your account until your Use year starting 2022, If you receive the 2021 points, consider it a "Bonus". you will be responsible for the monthly maintenance fees once transfer completes.



					www.ebay.com


----------



## Ty1on

55plus said:


> That mega renters named, Sue with 12M plus points sold 2 of her 12 timeshares today for pennies:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1,000,000 Wyndham Smoky  Mountain Points Annually ***NO RESERVE****  | eBay
> 
> 
> Points may not show up into your account until use year starting 2022, If you receive the 2021 points, consider it a Bonus. you will be responsible for the monthly maintenance fees once transfer completes.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1,116,000 CLUB WYNDHAM POINTS,  WYNDHAM NASHVILLE-----FREE CLOSING---------  | eBay
> 
> 
> Wyndham Nashville. WYNDHAM NASHVILLE. 1,116,000 WYNDHAM POINTS. Points may not show up into your account until your Use year starting 2022, If you receive the 2021 points, consider it a "Bonus". you will be responsible for the monthly maintenance fees once transfer completes.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com



Those are wicked high Maint Fees, aren't they?


----------



## troy12n

Ty1on said:


> Those are wicked high Maint Fees, aren't they?




By the time this clears Wyndham and is transferred out, that seller will be taking a loss for sure.


----------



## am1

Yes 200 transactions a year is in the kids pool but they would be receiving payment in other ways.  Check, bank deposits, transfers are very easy now etc.

Is there a really a difference to a mega renter of upgrading to the largest unit and only upgrading to the next largest unit available?  To me a waste of time for Wyndham making that a point.  I understand it limits the benefit and cost but any mega renter would work around it with no issue.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Do you think $6/1,000 is high MF's?  I don't think it is, not personally.  My Bali Hai is much less, but anything that amount and under is not bad at all.

The $7/1,000 is a bit high on the Nashville.

What does everyone else pay in MF's on their owned points, just average?


----------



## Ty1on

rickandcindy23 said:


> Do you think $6/1,000 is high MF's?  I don't think it is, not personally.  My Bali Hai is much less, but anything that amount and under is not bad at all.
> 
> The $7/1,000 is a bit high on the Nashville.
> 
> What does everyone else pay in MF's on their owned points, just average?



I'm pretty high, but after you deed me your Bali Hai my mix will look a lot better


----------



## rickandcindy23

Ty1on said:


> I'm pretty high, but after you deed me your Bali Hai my mix will look a lot better


Sorry.  I have someone else who will take it, if we choose that route.


----------



## Ty1on

rickandcindy23 said:


> Sorry.  I have someone else who will take it, if we choose that route.


That would be a tough route to choose with such attractive MF.  (And I was joking, note the emoticons)


----------



## ronparise

rickandcindy23 said:


> Whoa, @ronparise I have never seen that information on the William Spearman case before now.  What happened with Kendra's case? I am trying to remember her last name.  She was living pretty fancy in a house in the hills of CO Springs but had to leave her home after Wyndham shut her down, but she still rents Wyndham, I believe.  I know she settled out of court, so maybe you don't know about that one.
> 
> Nice to see you here.  I am glad to be getting out but keeping one VIP Platinum Founder's account.



Her last name is Bowers
I dont know the details or outcomes of any of the original megarenters , only what Ive read here or from court documents  Ive found on the internet

I just found this>  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/i-am-angry-and-frustrated.78469/ 
so now I know more about Kendra than I did before today. But you knew that much,,, you posted on that thread The thing I found interesting is that the megarenters sued Wyndham then,  but the last time around, in 2016 we didnt.  At least I didnt.   Wyndham,  I believe was daring us to sue them. but we didnt rise to the bait.

Also Boca Bum, who you also probably know, posted on that thread... It was his example with another timeshare system that convinced me to go big with Wyndham, , and his advice to me was the same as he gave  in Kendra's thread... although it was too late for Kendra.. he told me that nothing lasts forever with timeshares,  and to always have an exit plan, He didnt have to warn me about investing any real money in a timeshare hustle because I didnt have any. Also he didnt think it was possible to make any real money with Wyndham.. He said it used to be possible but no longer.. That was in 2012 or 13, 

You do remember, I hope, that it was you that pointed me in the right direction to become a Platinum VIP with very little money   so thanks


----------



## CO skier

HitchHiker71 said:


> Ron, thanks for sharing this excerpt - the timeline written out for the changes is most useful to help provide context to other forum members, including myself, who have loosely referenced these changes that we knew about historically - but this excerpt gives us specific details on when the changes to limit VIP benefits were made to limit megarenter functions.  This excerpt also confirms the fact that most of the whittling away of the VIP program benefits was and likely still is designed to eliminate megarenters - which is unfortunate IMHO - *as the many are paying a very high price because of a selective few.*  It is what it is at the end of the day of course.  Thanks again for this information, most appreciated.


Wyndham's definition of megarenters and Wyndham's intentions were more explicit in the Klebba lawsuit about 10 years later. Wyndham clearly recognized how "regular, non-VIP owners are adversely affected by Megarenters":

"*Megarenters*

Owners who are operating a commercial vacation rental business

A Megarenter is an Owner who amasses millions of points in their account for the purpose of booking large amounts of inventory so that they can rent out the units for a profit. They are conducting a business by using our business!


*Why Megarenters Are A Problem*

* Megarenters tie up inventory during peak times

* Megarenters' cancelled reservations often result in unused inventory

* Our regular, non-VIP Owners are adversely affected by Megarenters

* WVO’s Anti-Megarenter policies have an adverse affect on non-Megarenter Owners.


3. We have identified four opportunities aimed at getting owners to resorts they want more often and more efficiently. Each opportunity has a number of initiatives necessary to capture the value.

B. Get owners to engage within club rules to access the vacations they want
* Limit the use of loopholes by megarenters (e.g., cancel-rebook) that take inventory out of the system unfairly and reduce discretion in applying rules (e.g., overrides) where appropriate.

*Proactively manage inventory resulting from cancellations and no-shows*

* Create waitlists to fill canceled rooms
* Tighten rules on cancellations, in line with industry norms for condo and home rentals, to address serial cancellers
* Overbook owner stays based on history"


----------



## ronparise

Ty1on said:


> Those are wicked high Maint Fees, aren't they?


  Is $6 maintenance fees high?


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> Is $6 maintenance fees high?


No, which is why the Smoky Mountain sold for $4/1000 points all-in ($omething, at least) and the Nashville, with MF almost 50% higher, sold for next to nothing all-in.

I vaguely recall some years ago, when CWA was selling in the $8-10/1000 range, someone posted a thread "Don't tell me prices aren't headed up."  They were not.


----------



## scootr5

ronparise said:


> Is $6 maintenance fees high?



i don’t think so, but I’m on the lower end of the scale with a $5.66 average including the program fees.


----------



## Ty1on

ronparise said:


> Is $6 maintenance fees high?


Not these days, I spose.  I was looking at the Nashville and applied my response to both.


----------



## rickandcindy23

ronparise said:


> Her last name is Bowers
> I dont know the details or outcomes of any of the original megarenters , only what Ive read here or from court documents  Ive found on the internet
> 
> I just found this>  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/i-am-angry-and-frustrated.78469/
> so now I know more about Kendra than I did before today. But you knew that much,,, you posted on that thread The thing I found interesting is that the megarenters sued Wyndham then,  but the last time around, in 2016 we didnt.  At least I didnt.   Wyndham,  I believe was daring us to sue them. but we didnt rise to the bait.
> 
> Also Boca Bum, who you also probably know, posted on that thread... It was his example with another timeshare system that convinced me to go big with Wyndham, , and his advice to me was the same as he gave  in Kendra's thread... although it was too late for Kendra.. he told me that nothing lasts forever with timeshares,  and to always have an exit plan, He didnt have to warn me about investing any real money in a timeshare hustle because I didnt have any. Also he didnt think it was possible to make any real money with Wyndham.. He said it used to be possible but no longer.. That was in 2012 or 13,
> 
> You do remember, I hope, that it was you that pointed me in the right direction to become a Platinum VIP with very little money   so thanks


Yes, I remember all of that.  We met Kendra, actually.  We met her at her home way back then.  She lost her home because her lifestyle changed drastically.  

What happened to Jim (Boca Bum)? I think of him often. I found an obituary but hope that was not his. 

Kendra was very close-mouthed about her dealings with Wyndham, but she walked away with (I believe, so take it with a grain of salt) a lot of guest certificates she could use.  But she wouldn't tell me specifics.  I know she was living in timeshares.  That is all I know of Kendra.  She is probably watching all of this unfold.  Nice lady.  

I didn't get the big audit that some of you were subjected to.  We weren't using our points ahead and had a tough using them for the use year.  The changes Wyndham made have slowed down business.  That is a good time to get out, don't you think?  

We have been doing this since 2008.  We already owned Bali Hai to use ourselves.  We converted them, but I didn't even know Wyndham was taking over at the time I bought them.  It was still PAHIO and I was fighting the deed department over ROFR and having to get David Walter's approval for our purchases.


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> Her last name is Bowers
> blah ... blah... blah





rickandcindy23 said:


> Yes, I remember all of that.  We met Kendra, actually.  We met her at her home way back then.  She lost her home because her lifestyle changed drastically.
> blah ... blah ... blah


What does anything of this have to do with the topic at hand?


----------



## ronparise

I don’t think  it was Jim’s obit.  I haven’t talked to him in years… since 2017 when I got my big payday from Wyndham. I tried to convince him to call the Wyndham lawyer I was dealing with because he( (the lawyer) told me they were going after the Worldmark renters. But then the lawyer left Wyndham and I lost any influence I may have had

I didn’t realize it at the time but I got out at a great time ( not that I had a choice). 
I should stop here but there are a lot of posts here that talk about me and the others that were pushed out in the 2016 account freezes one that I saw that critized me for posting so much about what I was doing. As if I was trying to bring down the house. So rather than trying to answer each post with miss information I’m going to try to respond here


Wyndham has been going after the renters for a long time. Well before I bought my first contract. My take on it was that they thought if they kept making it more expensive to rent that they could control it so no more  owner to owner point transfers :  new fees and they  changed the number of pics one could do. I didn’t know it in 2010 when I bought my first contracts, but there were several mega renters that sued Wyndham over these changes. I still don’t know whether any of them got settlements or not but I don’t think they are Wyndham owners any more


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> What does anything of this have to do with the topic at hand?



what is the topic at hand?  I thought it was Wyndham changed the rules (again) in an effort to control renting

we are just offering a little historical perspective


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> we are just offering a little historical perspective


With about as much relevance as grandparents.  "I remember back in the good old days ..."


----------



## dioxide45

CO skier said:


> With about as much relevance as grandparents.  "I remember back in the good old days ..."


Why not just ignore the comments and move on? No need to be so grumpy about everything.


----------



## vacationtime1

CO skier said:


> With about as much relevance as grandparents.  "I remember back in the good old days ..."


"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (Santayana, 1905)


----------



## am1

ronparise said:


> I didn’t realize it at the time but I got out at a great time ( not that I had a choice).
> I should stop here but there are a lot of posts here that talk about me and the others that were pushed out in the 2016 account freezes one that I saw that critized me for posting so much about what I was doing. As if I was trying to bring down the house. So rather than trying to answer each post with miss information I’m going to try to respond here
> 
> 
> Wyndham has been going after the renters for a long time. Well before I bought my first contract. My take on it was that they thought if they kept making it more expensive to rent that they could control it so no more  owner to owner point transfers :  new fees and they  changed the number of pics one could do. I didn’t know it in 2010 when I bought my first contracts, but there were several mega renters that sued Wyndham over these changes. I still don’t know whether any of them got settlements or not but I don’t think they are Wyndham owners any more



Some information/ideas is better kept private.  Stripping contracts and then returning them to Wyndham is one and then there are tricks that no one Wyndham or others need to know about.  I just kept cashing cheques  and wood only voice my issues Wyndham.

 Not giving a 101 course on becoming a mega renter.  Thankfully I had come across on my own a few tips and tricks and such that you or others had no idea about.  
But yes in timeshares make as much money as you can as quickly as possible.  

If one wants to mega rent now they just need to get access to the thousands of VIP accounts that are under used. With less competition it could be almost as good as before.  

I remember a timeshare resale company transferring as many points as they could until Wyndham stopping that.  Then for whatever reason Wyndham decided to give me almost unlimited points.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Honestly, I'd prefer Wyndham simply do what they did in 2016 - audit and freeze the offending accounts and deal with the megarenters separately - don't continue to whittle away at the VIP benefits - this is not a good management business practice.  Everyone who is anyone knows that successful business management practices focus on the 80% - not the 20% that are exceptions to the rule.  Deal with the 20% separately - and deal with them harshly when necessary - to set an example for anyone else who may consider abusing the system for commercial business purposes.  The vast majority of us who simply use our VIP ownership for personal use are paying a heavy price for the few who want to run commercial enterprises.


----------



## Jan M.

am1 said:


> If one wants to mega rent now they just need to get access to the thousands of VIP accounts that are under used. With less competition it could be almost as good as before.



And that will find those VIP owners receiving a certified letter from Wyndham.

The point managers are putting the owners they manage at risk of receiving a letter by continuing to rent. The point managers need to make their money while they still can. I would guess that the majority of their clients are blissfully ignorant of what all is happening. How happy are those owners going to be when they want to plan a family vacation with the points they keep for their own use and find out the point managers have used their two allowed guest confirmations. On eBay I'm seeing point managers listing a lot of stays that are on the blackout lists. When those reservations get cancelled they're going to be refunding a whole lot of money. Or screwing the unfortunate people who bought those stays.

Some owners are continuing to rent stays on the blackout lists and counting on being able to cheat the system by waiting until the guest is ready to check in to change the reservation to their name. From what I was told at a resort by someone who would definitely know, they're watching for that.

Between the blackout lists, the letters and the upcoming separation of developer and resale points, it would be very foolish not to see the handwriting on the wall. Anyone who thinks Wyndham doesn't have a plan and they've done all they're going to do is deluding themself.

Too many owners are beyond fed up with seeing other owners profiting off the rentals of reservations they would like to have. The squeaky wheel will prevail.


----------



## scootr5

Just curious, is this thread not visible in the Wyndham forum for anyone else?


----------



## Eric B

scootr5 said:


> Just curious, is this thread not visible in the Wyndham forum for anyone else?



It won't show up in the listing in the Wyndham forum if you're one of the myriad that has OP on ignore.


----------



## am1

Jan M. said:


> And that will find those VIP owners receiving a certified letter from Wyndham.
> 
> Between the blackout lists, the letters and the upcoming separation of developer and resale points, it would be very foolish not to see the handwriting on the wall. Anyone who thinks Wyndham doesn't have a plan and is done is deluding themself.
> 
> Owners are beyond fed up with seeing other owners profiting off the rentals of reservations they would like to have. The squeaky wheel will prevail.


Owners seem to be against capitalism. What is wrong with equal opportunity? Want to side with the company that sold magic beans.  If it was me I would not go away without a fight.


----------



## 55plus

am1 said:


> Owners seem to be against capitalism. What is wrong with equal opportunity? Want to side with the company that sold magic beans.  If it was me I would not go away without a fight.


Some owners are actually using those magic beans for what they were designed for, personal use, not for commerce. As for capitalism, that's what helped create Wyndham.


----------



## am1

55plus said:


> Some owners are actually using those magic beans for what they were designed for, personal use, not for commerce. As for capitalism, that's what helped create Wyndham.



Tell that to the sales people who sold the timeshares and management who got them to target people to rent.


----------



## Jan M.

am1 said:


> Owners seem to be against capitalism. What is wrong with equal opportunity? Want to side with the company that sold magic beans.  If it was me I would not go away without a fight.



And look where that got you. No longer an owner.

You want a capitalist venture then buy something intended for that purpose. Again Wyndham timeshares are for personal use as specified in what we signed when we bought developer and what's in the directories for those who bought resale or forgot what they signed when they bought. Using the timeshares as a capitalist venture is a cheat and no playing with words changes that one iota.

What some owners were able to get away with doing in the past is completely irrelevant once Wyndham decides it's over.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Jan M. said:


> And look where that got you. No longer an owner.
> 
> You want a capitalist venture then buy something intended for that purpose. Again Wyndham timeshares are for personal use as specified in what we signed when we bought developer and what's in the directories for those who bought resale or forgot what they signed when they bought. Using the timeshares as a capitalist venture is a cheat and no playing with words changes that one iota.
> 
> What some owners were able to get away with doing in the past is completely irrelevant once Wyndham decides it's over.


True.  We gamed the system.  I am ready to waive the white flag and not fight any of it.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

Jan M. said:


> ......... the past is completely irrelevant once Wyndham decides it's over.



The Golden Rule -
They who have the gold - rule !


----------



## rickandcindy23

55plus said:


> Some owners are actually using those magic beans for what they were designed for, personal use, not for commerce. As for capitalism, that's what helped create Wyndham.


You think timeshares in other systems are not rented by the thousands?  Check Redweek for your answer on that one.  Look at any Marriott or Westin on Maui for a clue.  Maybe this will stop sometime in the future.    

I wonder what the sales' pitch will be now for the Wyndham salespeople to entice them into Platinum ownership?  You can retire and travel 52 weeks a year?  I think someone figured out that one could absolutely do that with discounts and staying in smaller accommodations.

And for every post by a "mega renter" you see here, there are dozens of mega renters watching this all unfold and keeping to themselves, some are probably watching TUG to see whether others are going to fight Wyndham.  I know a few who haven't been here but I know they are watching.  I see their usernames logged in.  They can out themselves, I won't do it.  I know who the competition is.


----------



## rickandcindy23

A lot of people sure have opinions on all of this, even those who don't own anything in Wyndham that I can see in profiles.  It's hurtful to see all of the bloviating against "mega renters."   I am glad you all find it so amusing.  

The first time I attended a timeshare presentation for Wyndham was on Maui.  The salesperson had quite the sales' pitch going on a rental business for us to set us up for life.  This was 2005.  This was back when PIC weeks were unlimited, and we owned 7 weeks at Val Chatelle and Twin Rivers.  It was enticing to hear all about it, but in the end, I walked away because it was so insane to even think about such a thing.  He talked about the discounts and the ability to rent with a small purchase.  

My entire take on that pitch at the end of the day was, "Why are you selling timeshares on Maui, when you have nothing on Maui?"


----------



## Ty1on

rickandcindy23 said:


> A lot of people sure have opinions on all of this, even those who don't own anything in Wyndham that I can see in profiles.  It's hurtful to see all of the bloviating against "mega renters."   I am glad you all find it so amusing.
> 
> The first time I attended a timeshare presentation for Wyndham was on Maui.  The salesperson had quite the sales' pitch going on a rental business for us to set us up for life.  This was 2005.  This was back when PIC weeks were unlimited, and we owned 7 weeks at Val Chatelle and Twin Rivers.  It was enticing to hear all about it, but in the end, I walked away because it was so insane to even think about such a thing.  He talked about the discounts and the ability to rent with a small purchase.
> 
> My entire take on that pitch at the end of the day was, "Why are you selling timeshares on Maui, when you have nothing on Maui?"



Many of us just don't list what we own on our profiles


----------



## am1

Jan M. said:


> And look where that got you. No longer an owner.
> 
> You want a capitalist venture then buy something intended for that purpose. Again Wyndham timeshares are for personal use as specified in what we signed when we bought developer and what's in the directories for those who bought resale or forgot what they signed when they bought. Using the timeshares as a capitalist venture is a cheat and no playing with words changes that one iota.
> 
> What some owners were able to get away with doing in the past is completely irrelevant once Wyndham decides it's over.


No it got me a nice life.  The money I made I saved and invested.  We did get to go on a bunch of trips and stay in nice places.  4 of us in the 4-6 of us in4 bedroom presidential. Thankfully I saw the writing on the wall and transferred 4 million points to Wyndham rewards.  Wyndham one upped me and changed the points needed for hotel stays.   I only purchased to make a profit.  One of the few that had the capacity and discipline to make it work.  

Wyndham sure has taken a long time eliminating mega renters.  

I talked years before it actually happened on here that eventually it would hit the fan.


----------



## troy12n

am1 said:


> Owners seem to be against capitalism. What is wrong with equal opportunity? Want to side with the company that sold magic beans.



Capitalism is starting your own timeshare company... go for it.



> If it was me I would not go away without a fight.



I was kind of under the impression you were made to go away, am I wrong?


----------



## am1

troy12n said:


> Capitalism is starting your own timeshare company... go for it.
> 
> 
> 
> I was kind of under the impression you were made to go away, am I wrong?


Capitalism is using what is available to your advantage.

Yes Wyndham wanted me out.  We came to a way that would happen.  

Thankfully I can just sit on the sidelines now.


----------



## 55plus

The meaning of 'mega renters' is, one who takes most of the prime locations and dates, not for their personal use, but to profit off of and leaves the leftovers for the rest of us. I'm sorry for those who got hurt in the process, but that's part of doing business, and being a mega renters is a business. Personally, my VIP Platinum became more valuable to me by more opportunities for those hard to come by locations and timeframes. The majority of owners will benefit from these changes.


----------



## paxsarah

55plus said:


> The meaning of 'mega renters' is, *one who takes most of the prime locations and dates*, not for their personal use, but to profit off of and leaves the leftovers for the rest of us. I'm sorry for those who got hurt in the process, but that's part of doing business, and being a mega renters is a business. Personally, my VIP Platinum became more valuable to me by more opportunities for those hard to come by locations and timeframes. The majority of owners will benefit from these changes.


I really think your image of the megarenters booking all of the best things at 10-13 months and leaving others with the dregs is questionable. I think there are going to be a lot of owners who complain about renters (and I'm thinking of a lot of comments I see on FB) who are going to continue to be disappointed when they try to book prime locations and dates at anything other than 10-13 months and not finding the availability they want. They show up in April complaining that they can't book anything for summer. Well, duh.


----------



## Jan M.

rickandcindy23 said:


> A lot of people sure have opinions on all of this, even those who don't own anything in Wyndham that I can see in profiles.  It's hurtful to see all of the bloviating against "mega renters." I'm glad you all find it so amusing.



My sincere apologies to you or anyone else who feels I'm doing that. That was not my intent at all. You've set an excellent example for others in your attitude about this. You've said more than once that you accept that you had a good run and now it's done. I can see there are some people who can't find an ounce of compassion in themselves to understand that this is a hard blow and those impacted are certainly not happy. 

What I've said about anything that's happening with the blackout lists, the letters, the separation of developer and resale points, all boils down to resistance is futile. All anyone who's impacted in any way can do is to figure out what their best plan is moving forward. 

It's my opinion that counting on finding work arounds that can be exploited isn't going to be a good plan. 

We have one person posting who has long resented the VIP owners for the benefits they paid to have that he and others don't get because they weren't willing to pay to get them.

We have another person stirring the pot because he would like nothing better than to see owners like you engage in a lawsuit against Wyndham.


----------



## Eric B

paxsarah said:


> I really think your image of the megarenters booking all of the best things at 10-13 months and leaving others with the dregs is questionable. I think there are going to be a lot of owners who complain about renters (and I'm thinking of a lot of comments I see on FB) who are going to continue to be disappointed when they try to book prime locations and dates at anything other than 10-13 months and not finding the availability they want. They show up in April complaining that they can't book anything for summer. Well, duh.



The "average owner booking window is now 126 days out" according to Michael Brown in the Q2 2021 earnings call.  If it's a normal distribution, a reasonable person would expect folks to start booking in appreciable quantities somewhere around twice that, or 8 months, barring externalities like prime locations and dates driving people that are happy to plan ahead to book those as soon as the 10-month window opens or in the ARP.  I think you're spot on that the "average owner" will continue to be unhappy.


----------



## Eric B

Jan M. said:


> [This] all boils down to resistance is futile.



This brought up images of Extra Holidays as The Borg for me.  (Amusingly enough, YouTube played a Wyndham ad when I went there.)


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> I really think your image of the megarenters booking all of the best things at 10-13 months and leaving others with the dregs is questionable. I think there are going to be a lot of owners who complain about renters (and I'm thinking of a lot of comments I see on FB) who are going to continue to be disappointed when they try to book prime locations and dates at anything other than 10-13 months and not finding the availability they want. They show up in April complaining that they can't book anything for summer. Well, duh.



I definitely agree that there will always be owners who wait until the last minute - and then complain when there's no availability during prime season at demand resort locations.  That said, let's use the example recently posted on FB forums where a megarenter used 160 GCs.  Let's assume for a moment that the vast majority of those GCs were for rentals (150 out of 160).  The net result with these new changes - at least for a subset of the most popular resort locations and the most popular reservation windows - is that 150 additional owners were able to book inventory vs ONE megarenter booking ALL of that inventory for commercial rental purposes.  That's 150 happier owners.  Let's assume there are 100 similar megarenters out there.  That's 15,000 happier owners now.  Just one example of course, but the point is - the changes in scope are putting the 80% majority ownership ahead of the 20%.  That's good management best practice.  

That said, unfortunately Wyndham, and in particular the Sales & Marketing division, has to some extent caused the very problem that are now attempting to resolve.  That's unfortunate for the small subset, _very _small subset, of owners impacted, but the reality is that Wyndham is now singing to a different tune and looking toward the future - and the future doesn't include commercial rental enterprises by individual owners - it'll likely and increasingly only going to include rentals via the corporate entity (EH).


----------



## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> it'll likely and increasingly only going to include rentals via the corporate entity (EH).


... resistance is futile!  You will be assimilated!


----------



## paxsarah

HitchHiker71 said:


> is that 150 additional owners were able to book inventory vs ONE megarenter booking ALL of that inventory for commercial rental purposes. That's 150 happier owners.


Although let’s also remember that most of that renter’s bookings were for 2-night weekends at an average of <25k points. So that availability is either going to favor the minority of owners who have unlimited housekeeping, or people are going to book that availability as part of a longer reservation and fewer than 150 owners will benefit.


----------



## ronparise

am1 said:


> Some information/ideas is better kept private.  Stripping contracts and then returning them to Wyndham is one and then there are tricks that no one Wyndham or others need to know about.  I just kept cashing cheques  and wood only voice my issues Wyndham.
> 
> Not giving a 101 course on becoming a mega renter.  Thankfully I had come across on my own a few tips and tricks and such that you or others had no idea about.
> But yes in timeshares make as much money as you can as quickly as possible.
> 
> If one wants to mega rent now they just need to get access to the thousands of VIP accounts that are under used. With less competition it could be almost as good as before.
> 
> I remember a timeshare resale company transferring as many points as they could until Wyndham stopping that.  Then for whatever reason Wyndham decided to give me almost unlimited points.




there were some things I didnt talk about even to my wife, Wyndhan buying back my stripped contracts was one of them. when my accounts were frozen their lawyer nearly fell of his chair when I told him how I had managed to  have 90,000,000 points in reservations in a 20 million point account


----------



## ronparise

paxsarah said:


> I really think your image of the megarenters booking all of the best things at 10-13 months and leaving others with the dregs is questionable. I think there are going to be a lot of owners who complain about renters (and I'm thinking of a lot of comments I see on FB) who are going to continue to be disappointed when they try to book prime locations and dates at anything other than 10-13 months and not finding the availability they want. They show up in April complaining that they can't book anything for summer. Well, duh.



Thank you , Take the mega renters out of the equation and  there are still the same number of points chasing the same number of reservations


----------



## troy12n

ronparise said:


> *there were some things I didnt talk about even to my wife*, Wyndhan buying back my stripped contracts was one of them. when my accounts were frozen their lawyer nearly fell of his chair when I told him how I had managed to  have *90,000,000 points in reservations in a 20 million point account*




Did this not bother you at all from an ethical standpoint? Like, I get a loophole was found, but on some level, you had to realize this was wrong, and potentially affecting others, right?

It almost seems like some of the biggest offenders are a little club who were just out there trying to out gimmick each other, until caught... not pointing to just you by any means, but there's been comments in some of these threads where owners seemingly brag about the extent they exploited the system for their own personal gain.

Until the music stopped...


----------



## raygo123

troy12n said:


> Did this not bother you at all from an ethical standpoint? Like, I get a loophole was found, but on some level, you had to realize this was wrong, and potentially affecting others, right?
> 
> It almost seems like some of the biggest offenders are a little club who were just out there trying to out gimmick each other, until caught... not pointing to just you by any means, but there's been comments in some of these threads where owners seemingly brag about the extent they exploited the system for their own personal gain.
> 
> Until the music stopped...


Wyndham is a 24 hour dance hall. So get in line and buy your tickets! The circus will be leaving soon! 

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X606F using Tapatalk


----------



## bogey21

troy12n said:


> Did this not bother you at all from an ethical standpoint? Like, I get a loophole was found, but on some level, you had to realize this was wrong...



The culprit was Wyndham.  They made the rules.  Owners managed within those rules...

Just an outsider's point of view. I am not, nor ever have been a Wyndham owner...

George


----------



## am1

troy12n said:


> Did this not bother you at all from an ethical standpoint? Like, I get a loophole was found, but on some level, you had to realize this was wrong, and potentially affecting others, right?
> 
> It almost seems like some of the biggest offenders are a little club who were just out there trying to out gimmick each other, until caught... not pointing to just you by any means, but there's been comments in some of these threads where owners seemingly brag about the extent they exploited the system for their own personal gain.
> 
> Until the music stopped...


It is “business” not “friends”.  Makes more sense when “show” is put in front of the words.  

Wyndham sales does a lot of bad things and people here like to give them a pass.


----------



## troy12n

bogey21 said:


> The culprit was Wyndham.  They made the rules.  Owners managed within those rules...
> 
> Just an outsider's point of view. I am not, nor ever have been a Wyndham owner...



You really don't know what you are talking about and obviously have not followed the posts about what was done. What, specifically was done, was not part of *the rules*. Some people were clearly operating outside the rules, and it was allowed to happen due to lax oversight and/or technological controls in place. In fact, Wyndham found out about most of the exploits accidentally because of some agent in Owner Care seeing something weird when a mega renter reported an issue with not being able to leverage a loophole. And it was shut down.

I'm not trying to stir the pot here or rub it in someone's face, just asking a question


----------



## troy12n

am1 said:


> It is “business” not “friends”.




Uh huh, because depending on who you ask, it's not business... it's "just trying to cover the MF from the 20 million points I own"...


----------



## am1

troy12n said:


> Did this not bother you at all from an ethical standpoint? Like, I get a loophole was found, but on some level, you had to realize this was wrong, and potentially affecting others, right?
> 
> It almost seems like some of the biggest offenders are a little club who were just out there trying to out gimmick each other, until caught... not pointing to just you by any means, but there's been comments in some of these threads where owners seemingly brag about the extent they exploited the system for their own personal gain.
> 
> Until the music stopped...


After the fact. Still years later and Wyndham seems to have the same issues and trying to stop it.


----------



## troy12n

am1 said:


> After the fact. Still years later and Wyndham seems to have the same issues and trying to stop it.




You could say the same thing about cops and criminals I guess... a cat and mouse game. Who is smarter? Who carries the biggest stick?


----------



## am1

troy12n said:


> You really don't know what you are talking about and obviously have not followed the posts about what was done. What, specifically was done, was not part of *the rules*. Some people were clearly operating outside the rules, and it was allowed to happen due to lax oversight and/or technological controls in place. In fact, Wyndham found out about most of the exploits accidentally because of some agent in Owner Care seeing something weird when a mega renter reported an issue with not being able to leverage a loophole. And it was shut down.
> 
> I'm not trying to stir the pot here or rub it in someone's face, just asking a question


Any consolation I sold my Wyndham stock after the big drop in 2009 before it really recovered. In 2011.  I did so as I felt the the company so poorly run.  I was right but when it came to money wrong.


----------



## am1

troy12n said:


> You could say the same thing about cops and criminals I guess... a cat and mouse game. Who is smarter? Who carries the biggest stick?


Just like I learned playing poker which I used the earnings to buy timeshare.  You do not need to be the smartest just the smartest at the table or know who the smartest is.


----------



## ronparise

troy12n said:


> Did this not bother you at all from an ethical standpoint? Like, I get a loophole was found, but on some level, you had to realize this was wrong, and potentially affecting others, right?
> 
> It almost seems like some of the biggest offenders are a little club who were just out there trying to out gimmick each other, until caught... not pointing to just you by any means, but there's been comments in some of these threads where owners seemingly brag about the extent they exploited the system for their own personal gain.
> 
> Until the music stopped...



I dont see ethics involved at all, I owned all those points when I made those reservations and I paid all my maintenance fees. I didnt steal anything , or push any old ladies out of the way when in line to make reservations.  You dont have a a problem (from an ethical standpoint) when you make a reservation with points you own, and somebody else that wanted it didnt get it why should I? I dont have an ethical problem owning a 2500 sq foot  house for just my wife and I,  when I have neighbors with kids in a crowded in to a 1200 sq feet

Wyndham accused me of taking advantage of them, and their smaller customers too, I didnt take it from them... and I wont  from you... If there is anyone here that should have an ethics problem its Wyndham selling $300,000 condos for $2,000,000 and financing the purchase with 12% loans. to people that would be turned down for a mortgage loan for a personal residence. 

and yea there's a little bragging there, but was mostly surprise that I was able to do what I did.  Kinda like a lottery winner pleased that he is now a millionaire. , and by the way i shared what ever I learned  from be and otherswith anyone that wanted to know

Years ago I suggested that if Wyndham wanted to end megarenting all the had to do was ask...they never did, until they did. Once they came clean with me and told me what they wanted (rather than just talking about irregularities in my accounts and the need for an audit. ) I gave it to them

Just know this,
what upset Wyndham the most was that their people bought back stripped contracts, and that we took advantage of them. I dont think they had any ethical concerns at all.....more like  embarrassment and care about other owners, That never entered into the discussions


----------



## dioxide45

ronparise said:


> I dont see ethics involved at all, I owned all those points when I made those reservations and I paid all my maintenance fees. I didnt steal anything , or push any old ladies out of the way when in line to make reservations. You dont have a a problem (from an ethical standpoint) when you make a reservation with points you own, and somebody else that wanted it didnt get it why should I? I dont have an ethical problem owning a 2500 sq foot house for just my wife and I, when I have neighbors with kids in a crowded in to a 1200 sq feet


I have no skin in the game, but the comment about "paid all my maintenance fees" isn't necessarily accurate is it? Does Wyndham require prepaying MFs on points borrowed from future years?


----------



## rickandcindy23

And Ron didn't point out that there was no option to NOT book at a discount, even with my resale points.  Someone else said that earlier and I think it's a great point.  The system didn't have the separation before but does now.


----------



## tschwa2

dioxide45 said:


> I have no skin in the game, but the comment about "paid all my maintenance fees" isn't necessarily accurate is it? Does Wyndham require prepaying MFs on points borrowed from future years?


They didn't at that time.  They still don't for borrowing but he used a feature called points pool that is a little different than borrowing but still did not require a prepayment of MF's.


----------



## dgalati

ronparise said:


> I dont see ethics involved at all, I owned all those points when I made those reservations and I paid all my maintenance fees. I didnt steal anything , or push any old ladies out of the way when in line to make reservations.  You dont have a a problem (from an ethical standpoint) when you make a reservation with points you own, and somebody else that wanted it didnt get it why should I? I dont have an ethical problem owning a 2500 sq foot  house for just my wife and I,  when I have neighbors with kids in a crowded in to a 1200 sq feet
> 
> Wyndham accused me of taking advantage of them, and their smaller customers too, I didnt take it from them... and I wont  from you... If there is anyone here that should have an ethics problem its Wyndham selling $300,000 condos for $2,000,000 and financing the purchase with 12% loans. to people that would be turned down for a mortgage loan for a personal residence.
> 
> and yea there's a little bragging there, but was mostly surprise that I was able to do what I did.  Kinda like a lottery winner pleased that he is now a millionaire. , and by the way i shared what ever I learned  from be and otherswith anyone that wanted to know
> 
> Years ago I suggested that if Wyndham wanted to end megarenting all the had to do was ask...they never did, until they did. Once they came clean with me and told me what they wanted (rather than just talking about irregularities in my accounts and the need for an audit. ) I gave it to them
> 
> Just know this,
> what upset Wyndham the most was that their people bought back stripped contracts, and that we took advantage of them. I dont think they had any ethical concerns at all.....more like  embarrassment and care about other owners, That never entered into the discussions


LOL! I compare this to the trading of deeds that worked so well to travel at close to $0 cost. Wyndham came around trying to collect $12/1000 on a negative balance that was created by them buying deeds with no current use year points. When Wyndham found out they purchased the deeds that created the negative balance they dropped the request for payment. Like you said one hand did not know what the others were doing.


----------



## dgalati

am1 said:


> Tell that to the sales people who sold the timeshares and management who got them to target people to rent.


Nobody seems to care about how sales duped owners into buying. Especially Wyndham now that they are closing the loopholes that sales used to sell.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Jan M. said:


> My sincere apologies to you or anyone else who feels I'm doing that. That was not my intent at all. You've set an excellent example for others in your attitude about this. You've said more than once that you accept that you had a good run and now it's done. I can see there are some people who can't find an ounce of compassion in themselves to understand that this is a hard blow and those impacted are certainly not happy.
> 
> What I've said about anything that's happening with the blackout lists, the letters, the separation of developer and resale points, all boils down to resistance is futile. All anyone who's impacted in any way can do is to figure out what their best plan is moving forward.
> 
> It's my opinion that counting on finding work arounds that can be exploited isn't going to be a good plan.
> 
> We have one person posting who has long resented the VIP owners for the benefits they paid to have that he and others don't get because they weren't willing to pay to get them.
> 
> We have another person stirring the pot because he would like nothing better than to see owners like you engage in a lawsuit against Wyndham.


Yes, I am ready to surrender.  Nothing against you at all.  I am pretty offended by some who would suggest we have stolen reservations from them.  It's a ridiculous notion.

I can debunk that notion right this minute.  We call a year out for Hono Koa reservations.  We call the second the phones open, exactly 365 days ahead (leap year we book one day later for our reservations).  Competition is fierce.  But there are weeks sitting online for any other dates a person would want.  Soleil Management allows us to book weeks 1-50, but weeks 1-12 are desirable because we can watch whales from our balcony.  Most every other date, April-December are sitting online for the taking.  So should those owners who don't bother to call at exactly a year out, the second the phone bank opens, whine because we got those weeks before they could get theirs at 6 months out?  They know the rules, they just don't plan ahead.  Timeshares require planning.  If you don't do that, you will lose out.


----------



## rickandcindy23

troy12n said:


> You really don't know what you are talking about and obviously have not followed the posts about what was done. What, specifically was done, was not part of *the rules*. Some people were clearly operating outside the rules, and it was allowed to happen due to lax oversight and/or technological controls in place. In fact, Wyndham found out about most of the exploits accidentally because of some agent in Owner Care seeing something weird when a mega renter reported an issue with not being able to leverage a loophole. And it was shut down.
> 
> I'm not trying to stir the pot here or rub it in someone's face, just asking a question


That was rude.  George made an excellent point, and I will say again that my resale points always, always enjoyed the same benefits as platinum.  That point was made earlier, and I really hadn't thought of it.  But as I said, I am happy to be done with the resale points and maybe even some of my platinum points.


----------



## dgalati

tschwa2 said:


> They didn't at that time.  They still don't for borrowing but he used a feature called points pool that is a little different than borrowing but still did not require a prepayment of MF's.


It dosent matter If points are used for the current use year and sold disclosing none are available until the following use year. I sold every deed with buyer agreeing to no current use year points available and maintenance fees to be paid by buyer at time of transfer. Simple purchase agreement with full disclosure and transparency.


----------



## 55plus

rickandcindy23 said:


> And Ron didn't point out that there was no option to NOT book at a discount, even with my resale points.  Someone else said that earlier and I think it's a great point.  The system didn't have the separation before but does now.


I said that earlier. And you had no choice to pay HCs or reservation transaction if you were a VIP at certain levels. So, Wyndham force the VIPs to enjoy VIP benefits on resale points. Thank you Mr. Wyndham.


----------



## rickandcindy23

dgalati said:


> It dosent matter If points are used for the current use year and sold disclosing none are available until the following use year. I sold every deed with buyer agreeing to no current use year points available and maintenance fees to be paid by buyer at time of transfer. Simple purchase agreement with full disclosure and transparency.


He never said that he didn't disclose that information during the turnover of the points.


----------



## dgalati

rickandcindy23 said:


> He never said that he didn't disclose that information during the turnover of the points.





dioxide45 said:


> I have no skin in the game, but the comment about "paid all my maintenance fees" isn't necessarily accurate is it? Does Wyndham require prepaying MFs on points borrowed from future years?


The reply was intended for post above. The future use year points were also paid by the buyers as it was stated in the purchse agreement.


----------



## scootr5

I’ve mentioned it before, but I’ll repeat it again. I was the "buyer" of one Ron's stripped contracts, and it was fully disclosed up front what I was getting and what I would be responsible for. I was fine with it, as I did my due diligence in the transaction like any buyer should. Your mileage may vary...

I also got a ton of great info about Avenue Plaza from him.


----------



## dgalati

scootr5 said:


> I was the "buyer" of one Ron's stripped contracts, and it was fully disclosed up front what I was getting and what I would be responsible for. I was fine with it; your mileage may vary...


Shame on me for not knowing at the time I could strip future use years points but everyone of my buyers were fully disclosed of no current use year points. I also disclosed that maintenance fees were buyers resposibility at time of closing.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

troy12n said:


> Did this not bother you at all from an ethical standpoint? Like, I get a loophole was found, but on some level, you had to realize this was wrong, and potentially affecting others, right
> .......
> abo


Ethics - sometimes the standpoint is based on where you are standing and where you come from.

One day a poster showed up in the Wyndham forum - asking what do do -  I believe they were a couple of months in arrears on MF - and personal life circumstances were difficult. ; and so they were staring at a foreclosure / collection process  ........       [ this  was before Ovations was a publicized program.]

At that time  - @ronparise was regularly buying Wyndham contracts off eBay at an average of a penny a point . As I recall - he offered to take the contract , which also meant bringing the MF current so he could use the points he would own .
This particular contract cost him more than a penny a point / his comment as I recall -"for him , in the big picture  the meter would not move enough to matter - but for the OP it was a hugh reduction in financial stress.

MY remembrance of how ethics can work


----------



## rickandcindy23

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Ethics - sometimes the standpoint is based on where you are standing and where you come from.
> 
> One day a poster showed up in the Wyndham forum - asking what do do -  I believe they were a couple of months in arrears on MF - and personal life circumstances were difficult. ; and so they were staring at a foreclosure / collection process  ........       [ this  was before Ovations was a publicized program.]
> 
> At that time  - @ronparise was regularly buying Wyndham contracts off eBay at an average of a penny a point . As I recall - he offered to take the contract , which also meant bringing the MF current so he could use the points he would own .
> This particular contract cost him more than a penny a point / his comment as I recall -"for him , in the big picture  the meter would not move enough to matter - but for the OP it was a hugh reduction in financial stress.
> 
> MY remembrance of how ethics can work


Common sense post that a lot of people actually applied a like emoticon to show their support of a well-thought out example.  I love what you said.  Thank you for that.  It's such a nice thing to see.


----------



## rapmarks

ronparise said:


> what is the topic at hand?  I thought it was Wyndham changed the rules (again) in an effort to control renting
> 
> we are just offering a little historical perspective


Ron. What are doing now?  Still have the boat? Still in Florida?


----------



## ronparise

troy12n said:


> You really don't know what you are talking about and obviously have not followed the posts about what was done. What, specifically was done, was not part of *the rules*. Some people were clearly operating outside the rules, and it was allowed to happen due to lax oversight and/or technological controls in place. In fact, Wyndham found out about most of the exploits accidentally because of some agent in Owner Care seeing something weird when a mega renter reported an issue with not being able to leverage a loophole.* And it was shut down.




You are right about how Wyndham found out about what was happening in 2016 but and I can only speak for myself and several others that I was close to. No one was working outside the rules, and at least in my case and several others Im familiar with; Wyndham never said we did. I think Wyndham was just tired of playing wack a mole with us.. They kept changing the rules, we adapted but the rule changes were left in place to screw the little guys.. They squeezed our income thinking we would quit, but all it did in my case is convince me to do more

The problem that owner care had with that first guy, is that their system (or that agent) couldnt handle the number of points the guy wanted to put into the credit pool. They  never anticipated the number of points this guy was moving.   In any case he was asked to wait until a supervisor could figure out the problem and get back to him the next day.   The supervisor saw that this guy was moving something like 10mm points in a 2mm point account.  His account, (only this one account) was frozen pending an audit

*Between the last two sentences of  the part of your post I quoted above,  a whole lot happened *

a lot of accounts were frozen, and a lot of owners were interviewed. on the p[hone and in orlando We were accused of breaking rules or some other illegal acts. They just wanted to know how we had more points in the accounts than justified by our ownerships  In my case they were so sure of themselves that they  wanted to know what wyndham employee credited my account with points unsupported by any ownership. They said they were doing an audit but they never did one... let that sink in, They never did an audit and they never made any formal accusations...and yet we were still shut down,,

I finally asked the Wyndham lawyer  what they wanted.  Did they want to identify the number of "extra" points they said I had and take them back or make me pay for them, or did they just want me to go away... The answer was both.. Once I had that info and once I gave up the need to be right and make wyndham the bad guy, we could talk.   Yes I was shut down, but I was compensated nicely .... Somewhere deep in the bowels of TUG there is a post where I suggested  a number that would convince me to go away... and thats what I got

Nothing in our settlement agreement said anything about anyone doing anything wrong In fact there is a Non-Disparagement. clause where I agree to not  disparage Wyndham or they me... This thing was truly an agreement


----------



## ronparise

rapmarks said:


> Ron. What are doing now?  Still have the boat? Still in Florida?



Thanks for asking

The big thing that happened is I got old.. (Ill be 75 in October). Im still in Florida, The boat is gone..  My daughter has been cancer free for 8 years and my wife and I are so healthy we dont know what to do with ourselves

Wyndham was quite a ride for me. In 2010, I had lost my home, my income and the little money that I had, in the great recession So, (and I know this makes no sense at all) I bid on a 385000 point Wyndham contract (actually three weeks that had been converted to points)  and won   and boy did I catch some well deserved crap from my wife.  5 years later thanks to Wyndham, I had a new house no mortgage , a new car, and money in the bank....  just not enough to last the rest of my life..

.so (and this answers your question about what Im doing now)  I started to drive Uber and Lyft, and formed my own "one man band" Airport Transportation Company. so we wouldnt have to sell the house or dip into savings.  I promised my wife I would stop at age 75 (which seemed so far away),,, But here we are

I think I have enough now to live the way I want to for 20 years,  so Im going to try to  quit or limit myself to a serving a few favored customers but what to do with all that time?..... Im on the internet every day looking for a small rental property .. .(just dont tell my wife)


----------



## Iggyearl

Ron, I applaud your knowledge and your diplomacy.  I started viewing Tug in 2013, and joined in 2014.  I consider yourself as one of the most astute and experienced members that I have witnessed during that time.  I do Not own a timeshare for numerous reasons (have rented) but find the industry to be one of the most interesting and curious subjects I have experienced.  I would like to thank you for explaining your actions and reasoning - even though you don't have to .

I feel that you should not be insulted by a "GUEST" who has no background on your history, and who is just looking at teaching you a "lesson."  This is a guest who doesn't feel that he should pay the nominal $15 fee to join the best timeshare group on the planet.  Talk about taking advantage.

I am a couple years behind you, and I appreciate that you have good health and a nest-egg.  That is about all you need.  I might add that the one preoccupation that fills my days is golf.  Many people take it up at an advanced age.  Go to a driving range and hit a bucket of balls.  You might enjoy it.    Best to you.


----------



## rapmarks

I am older than you guys, Ron and Iggyearl, have played golf starting in my fifties, and now I am learning pickle ball.   My knee was bad for probably 25 years before I gave in and had it replaced,and now I can move enough for pickle ball


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## 55plus

I'm a little more than 10 years behind you. Hope to leave my VIPP to my sister and brother-in-law, niece or nephew, not Wyndham when I stop traveling. That's when I'll move to Florida. I'll probably be too old to continue riding my Harleys, so I'll be the old guy in the convertible Corvette.


----------



## ronparise

55plus said:


> I'm a little more than 10 years behind you. Hope to leave my VIPP to my sister and brother-in-law, niece or nephew, not Wyndham when I stop traveling. That's when I'll move to Florida. I'll probably be too old to continue riding my Harleys, so I'll be the old guy in the convertible Corvette.



down here you need to have a gray ponytail to drive a Harley  there a lot of old guy on trikes down here


----------



## 55plus

ronparise said:


> down here you need to have a gray ponytail to drive a Harley  there a lot of old guy on trikes down here


I don't do trikes. A sidecar maybe, but never a trike. And no ponytail for me. Attached is one of my older Harleys. It's 33 years and as cherry as it was when I bought it new from a Harley dealer.


----------



## samara64

Iggyearl said:


> I feel that you should not be insulted by a "GUEST" who has no background on your history, and who is just looking at teaching you a "lesson."  This is a guest who doesn't feel that he should pay the nominal $15 fee to join the best timeshare group on the planet.  Talk about taking advantage.



Not really a participant in the discussion as I do not own Wyndham (Like Worldmark More) but I do agree with the above statement and I think we should all ignore this Guest as I do not see a single useful comment in his posts.

And I know for sure that Jim is alive and very well as Cindy was asking about him.


----------



## lost patience

Jan M. said:


> Some owners are continuing to rent stays on the blackout lists and counting on being able to cheat the system by waiting until the guest is ready to check in to change the reservation to their name. From what I was told at a resort by someone who would definitely know, they're watching for that.


FYI - Owner Care TOLD me to do exactly that.  And, no, I did not follow that suggestion.


----------



## 55plus

I would think the system would block the transaction from going through unless the owner also had a reservation for themselves. I have 28 guests certificates left so I a reservation for me and a fake guest. Then cancel my reservation and see if the system cancels the guest reservation. I hope it does cancel it or there's a problem.


----------



## wjappraise

55plus said:


> I would think the system would block the transaction from going through unless the owner also had a reservation for themselves. I have 28 guests certificates left so I a reservation for me and a fake guest. Then cancel my reservation and see if the system cancels the guest reservation. I hope it does cancel it or there's a problem.



Great. Thanks for taking one for the team. Please let us know how it works. This is an example of what makes this forum so valuable. 

Wes.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Eric B said:


> The "average owner booking window is now 126 days out" according to Michael Brown in the Q2 2021 earnings call.  If it's a normal distribution, a reasonable person would expect folks to start booking in appreciable quantities somewhere around twice that, or 8 months, barring externalities like prime locations and dates driving people that are happy to plan ahead to book those as soon as the 10-month window opens or in the ARP.  I think you're spot on that the "average owner" will continue to be unhappy.



Thanks for pointing out the average owner booking window of 126 days.  That's roughly four months by my count.  We tend to book our bigger family vacations farther out than that - usually 8-10 months or sometimes even using RARP - which will no longer be possible will all of our points since roughly 1/2 of our points are resale and won't be RARP eligible any longer - so 10 months it will be - at least for our resale points.


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> Although let’s also remember that most of that renter’s bookings were for 2-night weekends at an average of <25k points. So that availability is either going to favor the minority of owners who have unlimited housekeeping, or people are going to book that availability as part of a longer reservation and fewer than 150 owners will benefit.



Yes - but the overall point is - many more owners will be happy - as opposed to many more renters.  This is an extremely basic premise - so I'm a bit surprised it gets such a large amount of pushback here on TUG if I'm honest.


----------



## rickandcindy23

samara64 said:


> Not really a participant in the discussion as I do not own Wyndham (Like Worldmark More) but I do agree with the above statement and I think we should all ignore this Guest as I do not see a single useful comment in his posts.
> 
> And I know for sure that Jim is alive and very well as Cindy was asking about him.


Oh, GOOD!  Thank you.  I was hoping he was doing well.  We haven't heard an update on his family for a while.


----------



## HitchHiker71

dgalati said:


> Nobody seems to care about how sales duped owners into buying. Especially Wyndham now that they are closing the loopholes that sales used to sell.



For my part - I care - I've written entire articles and posts about the fact that Wyndham is a company with a very good product - backed by a miserable sales division.  Regardless, the company has a new leader who is implementing these changes (CEO) - so I don't really see the point in continuing to bring it up - as @Jan M. said - resistance is futile.  This line is also brought up under what I would largely consider at least partially false pretenses.  TUG is legendary for giving out advice to _never _trust sales people - that if their lips are moving - they are lying.  The very same people who use these lines - are some of the same people who are saying that sales lied to them.  You cannot really talk out of both sides of your mouth with respect to this issue.  Please don't try to tell us that anyone didn't know what they were doing.  The retail and/or resale purchases used to rent points and/or game the entire system (megarenters) were _far _from the initial purchases made. Most of the owners were experts on how to use the system by the time they added points solely for rentals that went way beyond VIPP points levels. Are we really going to sit here and attempt to say that anyone here on TUG was duped into purchasing more retail points for rentals? I'm fairly certain everyone went into it with eyes wide open. Now that Wyndham is getting even more serious about shutting things down - I'm sure it hurts - the game is ending - it's been a good game for sure - I have enjoyed it myself with my resale contract for about two years - but it's coming to an end now.


----------



## Ty1on

HitchHiker71 said:


> For my part - I care - I've written entire articles and posts about the fact that Wyndham is a company with a very good product - backed by a miserable sales division.  Regardless, the company has a new leader who is implementing these changes (CEO) - so I don't really see the point in continuing to bring it up - as @Jan M. said - resistance is futile.  This line is also brought up under what I would largely consider at least partially false pretenses.  TUG is legendary for giving out advice to _never _trust sales people - that if their lips are moving - they are lying.  The very same people who use these lines - are some of the same people who are saying that sales lied to them.  You cannot really talk out of both sides of your mouth with respect to this issue.  Please don't try to tell us that anyone didn't know what they were doing.  The retail and/or resale purchases used to rent points and/or game the entire system (megarenters) were _far _from the initial purchases made. Most of the owners were experts on how to use the system by the time they added points solely for rentals that went way beyond VIPP points levels. Are we really going to sit here and attempt to say that anyone here on TUG was duped into purchasing more retail points for rentals? I'm fairly certain everyone went into it with eyes wide open. Now that Wyndham is getting even more serious about shutting things down - I'm sure it hurts - the game is ending - it's been a good game for sure - I have enjoyed it myself with my resale contract for about two years - but it's coming to an end now.



I think you're making a bit of a non-sequitur here in regard to the people calling sales weasels liars.  

Firstly, many of these very smart and experienced folks are smart and experienced because they were duped by salespeople.  They warn others because they don't want them to fall in the same trap.  So "You call them liars but you fell for the lies" is cart before horse.  They fell for lies, and now call them liars.

Secondly, the resale loophole wasn't a lie per se.  It was an exploit salesmen taught in order to convince smart and experienced folks to buy from them.  The weasels didn't know Wyndham would crack down on this exploit, or when.  And, of course, if they did know, they weren't going to share that information with their marks.

I personally share the satisfaction of many other owners in this loophole closure, but a little bit of empathy for the owners this affects and how they got to where this affects them would go a long way.


----------



## paxsarah

HitchHiker71 said:


> Yes - but the overall point is - many more owners will be happy - as opposed to many more renters.  This is an extremely basic premise - so I'm a bit surprised it gets such a large amount of pushback here on TUG if I'm honest.


I guess my point isn't that there won't be some individual non-renting owners that benefit from the freeing of inventory that renters won't be booking - it's that there are far greater numbers of people who complain that there's never any inventory they want 2, or 4, or 6 months in advance. The early birds will still benefit, and others will still complain that they can't book what they want when they finally get around to it. It may be even tougher to get a reservation in the discount period without the churn that comes with the megarenters. Everyone thinks that they personally will benefit from the megarenters being shut down, just like every child in Lake Wobegon is above average. Until it's just as desirable to go to Myrtle Beach or Edisto in February as it is in July, there will always be have-nots.

Only this time, even if Wyndham does manage to drive some megarenters out of the business, the result will be that Wyndham (via EH and other outlets) becomes the primary purveyor of Wyndham rentals. When an owner can't find what they want 2 months out but it's available on EH or another site, instead of blaming the megarenters they'll blame Wyndham (even more than they already do).


----------



## HitchHiker71

Ty1on said:


> I think you're making a bit of a non-sequitur here in regard to the people calling sales weasels liars.
> 
> Firstly, many of these very smart and experienced folks are smart and experienced because they were duped by salespeople.  They warn others because they don't want them to fall in the same trap.  So "You call them liars but you fell for the lies" is cart before horse.  They fell for lies, and now call them liars.
> 
> Secondly, the resale loophole wasn't a lie per se.  It was an exploit salesmen taught in order to convince smart and experienced folks to buy from them.  The weasels didn't know Wyndham would crack down on this exploit, or when.  And, of course, if they did know, they weren't going to share that information with their marks.
> 
> I personally share the satisfaction of many other owners in this loophole closure, but a little bit of empathy for the owners this affects and how they got to where this affects them would go a long way.



Yes, many a TUG owner - myself included - bought into Wyndham via retail _initially _- and then found TUG and learned to rescind if it wasn't too late to do so, or the make the best of their ownership if rescission was no longer an option.  But I highly doubt that _anyone _on TUG bought millions of points for rental purposes - on initial retail purchase up to VIP.  Yes, I agree that sales people are taught to exploit people.  But those here on TUG who fall into the megarenter category - the point of this entire thread - don't fall into this category IME.  I am speaking specifically to the purpose of this thread to be clear - megarenters.


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> I guess my point isn't that there won't be some individual non-renting owners that benefit from the freeing of inventory that renters won't be booking - it's that there are far greater numbers of people who complain that there's never any inventory they want 2, or 4, or 6 months in advance. The early birds will still benefit, and others will still complain that they can't book what they want when they finally get around to it. It may be even tougher to get a reservation in the discount period without the churn that comes with the megarenters. Everyone thinks that they personally will benefit from the megarenters being shut down, just like every child in Lake Wobegon is above average. Until it's just as desirable to go to Myrtle Beach or Edisto in February as it is in July, there will always be have-nots.
> 
> Only this time, even if Wyndham does manage to drive some megarenters out of the business, the result will be that Wyndham (via EH and other outlets) becomes the primary purveyor of Wyndham rentals. When an owner can't find what they want 2 months out but it's available on EH or another site, instead of blaming the megarenters they'll blame Wyndham (even more than they already do).



When we consider the fact that the average reservation is 126 days in advance - that puts it smack dab at the four month marker. Some of this average is likely due to a combination of early bird owners booking far in advance at 13/10 months - and VIP owners using the discount window.

We also have to challenge the assumption that it is the early birds will truly benefit the most - as this assumption would require that the megarenters were booking most of their reservations during early bird timeframes right at 13 or 10 months and consuming this inventory that would otherwise be consumed by those who are better at planning ahead - and this assumption has received quite a bit of pushback here on the TUG forums - so I am therefore far from certain the assumption is accurate as a result - especially when we consider that a disproportionate amount of megarenters belong to TUG in the first place.

So if we challenge the assumption above and assume that a healthy proportion of megarenter inventory was also booked well within the 10 month standard window - perhaps closer to the actual average of 126 days - then it would logically follow that freeing up this inventory will actually help those who don’t book as far in advance.

Of course there will always be those who wait until the last minute to book prime season high demand resorts and will continue to experience disappointment in life - and blame someone in the process. But I’m not entirely certain it’s going to be EH - since EH doesn’t rent points - it only rents reservations - which means owners must first reserve available inventory before submitting it to EH for rental. Since EH takes such a big slice of the money pie (40%), I don’t see many owners rushing to reserve rental inventory for EH far in advance - but that’s just my two cents of course. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ty1on

HitchHiker71 said:


> When we consider the fact that the average reservation is 126 days in advance - that puts it smack dab at the four month marker. Some of this average is likely due to a combination of early bird owners booking far in advance at 13/10 months - and VIP owners using the discount window.
> 
> We also have to challenge the assumption that it is the early birds will truly benefit the most - as this assumption would require that the megarenters were booking most of their reservations during early bird timeframes right at 13 or 10 months and consuming this inventory that would otherwise be consumed by those who are better at planning ahead - and this assumption has received quite a bit of pushback here on the TUG forums - so i am far from certain the assumption is accurate as a result - especially when we consider that a disproportionate amount of megarenters belong to TUG in the first place.
> 
> So if we challenge the assumption above and assume that a healthy proportion of megarenter inventory was also booked well within the 10 month standard window - perhaps closer to the actual average of 126 days - then it would logically follow that freeing up this inventory will actually help those who don’t book as far in advance.
> 
> Of course there will always be those who wait until the last minute to book prime season high demand resorts and will continue to experience disappointment in life - and blame someone in the process. But I’m not entirely certain it’s going to be EH - since EH doesn’t rent points - it only rents reservations - which means owners must first reserve available inventory before submitting it to EH for rental. Since EH takes such a big slice of the money pie (40%), I don’t see many owners rushing to reserve rental inventory for EH far in advance - but that’s just my two cents of course.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



EH isn't just rentals that are offered on behalf of owners.  It is also reservations made with developer or association owned points and I would guess reservations made with RCI breakage points.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Ty1on said:


> EH isn't just rentals that are offered on behalf of owners.  It is also reservations made with developer or association owned points and I would guess reservations made with RCI breakage points.



Yes, I'm very aware of that - I've posted about the three buckets of inventory that Wyndham explicitly rents via EH in other threads - but we aren't discussing Wyndham owned inventory rented through EH in this use case.  We're talking about megarenter owned points that will be either sold on the secondary market to other owners - or handed back to Wyndham via Certified Exit and resold to new owners.


----------



## rickandcindy23

HitchHiker71 said:


> When we consider the fact that the average reservation is 126 days in advance - that puts it smack dab at the four month marker. Some of this average is likely due to a combination of early bird owners booking far in advance at 13/10 months - and VIP owners using the discount window.
> 
> We also have to challenge the assumption that it is the early birds will truly benefit the most - as this assumption would require that the megarenters were booking most of their reservations during early bird timeframes right at 13 or 10 months and consuming this inventory that would otherwise be consumed by those who are better at planning ahead - and this assumption has received quite a bit of pushback here on the TUG forums - so I am therefore far from certain the assumption is accurate as a result - especially when we consider that a disproportionate amount of megarenters belong to TUG in the first place.
> 
> So if we challenge the assumption above and assume that a healthy proportion of megarenter inventory was also booked well within the 10 month standard window - perhaps closer to the actual average of 126 days - then it would logically follow that freeing up this inventory will actually help those who don’t book as far in advance.
> 
> Of course there will always be those who wait until the last minute to book prime season high demand resorts and will continue to experience disappointment in life - and blame someone in the process. But I’m not entirely certain it’s going to be EH - since EH doesn’t rent points - it only rents reservations - which means owners must first reserve available inventory before submitting it to EH for rental. Since EH takes such a big slice of the money pie (40%), I don’t see many owners rushing to reserve rental inventory for EH far in advance - but that’s just my two cents of course.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, I was supposedly a "mega renter" and never booked that far out.  Not ever.  Everything within 60 days, that is my mantra.


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## paxsarah

HitchHiker71 said:


> but we aren't discussing Wyndham owned inventory rented through EH in this use case.


I was, though, because I was talking about it in the context of what disappointed owners would _see_ through EH when they couldn’t use their points to book as an owner. Those owners don’t care which bucket the inventory came from. They just care that they see something available for cash that they can’t book with points.


----------



## CO skier

HitchHiker71 said:


> We're talking about megarenter owned points that will be either sold on the secondary market to other owners - or handed back to Wyndham via Certified Exit and resold to new owners.


That, I think, is the heart of these latest changes.  If a megarenter was using resale points to book profitable reservations at full points cost, they will be able to continue to do so, and will not be off-loading their resale points.

Most of the off-loaded resale points will, therefore, have been used within the 60-day discount window to be profitable, which will not be possible after the August changes.  There will be very few of these resale points sold as new VIP packages for the sole purpose of renting, so the net effect is that vitually all the resale points "recirculated" due to the August changes will find their way into the hands of owners who will book reservations at full points costs for their own vacations, and statistically, more than half of those reservations will be booked more than 126 days in advance, instead of within 60-days and occupied by renters.


----------



## wjappraise

HitchHiker71 said:


> Yes, I'm very aware of that - I've posted about the three buckets of inventory that Wyndham explicitly rents via EH in other threads - but we aren't discussing Wyndham owned inventory rented through EH in this use case. We're talking about megarenter owned points that will be either sold on the secondary market to other owners - or handed back to Wyndham via Certified Exit and resold to new owners.



George. 
First of all thank you for your help navigating these changing times. 

Second I guess I don’t feel a discussion about mega renters shouldn’t ignore the 800 lb gorilla - Extra Holidays. Perhaps my prior encounters with Wyndham corporate have left me jaded and cynical. But I feel all of this talk by Wyndham of removing mega renters is simply a cover story to attempt a double win for Wyndham. 1) placate owners by ascribing all inventory issues to a vague group known as megarenters. 2) monopolize the secondary Wyndham rental market by running all of EH competitors out of business. 

I see the multi faceted fronts established by Wyndham to accomplish this. I don’t know if anyone has the resources to actively fight it, but I would guess it would require a state attorney general office to feel that the methods reek of monopolistic protectionism (ergo the mafia smack). It seems Wyndham has a flank exposed in that they haven’t defined those owners who use EH for rentals as being commercial use. But if an owner uses any other platform to rent a room they run the risk of being so labeled. That double standard may prove to be their Achilles heel. 

When Clearwater first opened I wanted to stay there. The only way I was able to do so was via EH. EH had inventory before it was made available to owners on Wyndham website. Like a dog who’s developed a taste for blood, those profits could well have whetted the appetite to take over the lucrative secondary rental market. But to do so Wyndham will force out some of their most lucrative customers. It will be interesting to see if this becomes like Aesop’s fable of the greedy dog who had a bone but wanted the bone of the dog in the reflection and ended up losing both. 

My situation is I am the gatekeeper for a large hybrid account for our extended family. Our grandparents first bought in as VIP Gold in the Fairfield days. We eventually bought into presidential reserve. We have 18 owners between all of us cousins brothers sisters etc. 
We have more resale points than developer so we are carefully watching this unfold. We may offer a room for rental a handful of times a year. But we just use that to use points and turn some cash back into MF fees. I’m not sure how Wyndham views our account but I’ll probably find out in time. I’m probably a hypocrite because I preach against EH, but I would use it if I didn’t risk losing numerous nights of a reservation given their current quizzical approach to using owners rentals even if only a night or two is sold. And that dynamic alone tells me that EH using owners reservations is a cover, that the overwhelming majority of inventory comes from Wyndham directly - a double profit. 

Like it or not - EH is the biggest mega renter by far. 

Just my opinion. 

Wes


----------



## CO skier

wjappraise said:


> But I feel all of this talk by Wyndham of removing mega renters is simply a cover story to attempt a double win for Wyndham. 1) placate owners by ascribing all inventory issues to a vague group known as megarenters. 2) monopolize the secondary Wyndham rental market by running all of EH competitors out of business.


Wyndham can take inventory within 60-days.  If there were any truth to this conspiracy theory, Wyndham could have just taken the cancellations for Extra Holidays and run the competition out of business.  Instead, Ebay is filled with Wyndham rentals within 60 days.


----------



## paxsarah

CO skier said:


> Wyndham can take inventory within 60-days.  If there were any truth to this conspiracy theory, Wyndham could have just taken the cancellations for Extra Holidays and run the competition out of business.  Instead, Ebay is filled with Wyndham rentals within 60 days.


I think you’re ascribing the oft-cited conspiracy theory “Wyndham wants to steal the best reservations from owners to rent for cash” to Wes here, but that’s not what he said. He just suggested that be removing other renters from the market, Wyndham could take an even larger share of the rental market for itself. This doesn’t seem like a conspiracy theory at all.


----------



## SueDonJ

paxsarah said:


> I was, though, because I was talking about it in the context of what disappointed owners would _see_ through EH when they couldn’t use their points to book as an owner. *Those owners don’t care which bucket the inventory came from.* They just care that they see something available for cash that they can’t book with points.



I disagree with what's bolded as a basic premise. From what I've seen on TUG over the years participating in the Marriott forum, it is far more infuriating for owners to find inventory available via unofficial portals that hawk owner rentals than it is to see rental inventory available via the companies' official portals. The explanations of how that inventory is obtained/offered by private renters causes much more consternation and pushback than do the explanations of how the companies obtain/offer rental inventory, especially when talking about megarenters and the loopholes they exploit. (I don't mean that as an insult of any kind - it is simply the right word when you're talking about governing docs that say "commercial activity" can be restricted, but owners are able to take advantage of the fact that it may not be.)

I've used a broker to rent out high-demand Marriott intervals obtained as an owner during these last few years (though not anywhere near the grand scale of megarenters) but it certainly wasn't my intended use when I purchased. I have known throughout my ownership that the governing docs explicitly give owners the right to rent out their reservations while at the same time, the docs contain enough "commercial activity" language to support Marriott should they decide to restrict rentals in a number of ways (including ways similar to those being implemented now by Wyndham.) I also know that I don't stand a chance of contesting them if they eventually set parameters that deems my rental activity prohibited. That's just the way it is, and I won't be expecting empathy from anybody when that gravy train stops running.


----------



## paxsarah

SueDonJ said:


> I disagree with this as a basic premise. From what I've seen on TUG over the years participating in the Marriott forum, it is far more infuriating for owners to find inventory available via unofficial portals that hawk owner rentals than it is to see rental inventory available via the companies' official portals. The explanations of how that inventory is obtained/offered by private renters causes much more consternation and pushback than do the explanations of how the companies obtain/offer rental inventory, especially when talking about megarenters and the loopholes they exploit.


I was speaking mainly of what I’ve seen in the various  Wyndham Facebook groups. TUG on average sees a more discerning owner who might make the distinction between types of rentals; Facebook is more likely to see someone complain about rentals they saw on Travelocity or Extra Holidays, and then flounce off before ever having a chance to read another user’s thoughtful explanation of why that inventory was never available to owners in the first place. And for better or for worse, the Facebook owner is closer to average/normal than the TUG owner (notwithstanding that some of us are in both places).


----------



## troy12n

CO skier said:


> That, I think, is the heart of these latest changes.  If a megarenter was using resale points to book profitable reservations at full points cost, they will be able to continue to do so, and will not be off-loading their resale points.
> 
> Most of the off-loaded resale points will, therefore, have been used within the 60-day discount window to be profitable, which will not be possible after the August changes.  There will be very few of these resale points sold as new VIP packages for the sole purpose of renting, so the net effect is that vitually all the resale points "recirculated" due to the August changes will find their way into the hands of owners who will book reservations at full points costs for their own vacations, and statistically, more than half of those reservations will be booked more than 126 days in advance, instead of within 60-days and occupied by renters.



This ignores all resale reservations not having VIP benefits such as Housekeeping and Transactions attaching to them going forward. These reservations will now require that past whatever they get for free. That's extra cost, so it in fact may be a deterrent.


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## paxsarah

troy12n said:


> This ignores all resale reservations not having VIP benefits such as Housekeeping and Transactions attaching to them. These reservations will now require that. That's extra cost, so it in fact may be a deterrent.


All the more reason for an owner to book an earlier, longer reservation. No reason to wait until 60 days, and you want to book fewer, longer reservations to conserve your free HK, RT, and GC. An owner who is booking prime reservations at full point cost only needs to average reservations of 4-5 nights apiece to keep from running out of free RT and HK.


----------



## troy12n

paxsarah said:


> All the more reason for an owner to book an earlier, longer reservation. No reason to wait until 60 days, and you want to book fewer, longer reservations to conserve your free HK, RT, and GC. An owner who is booking prime reservations at full point cost only needs to average reservations of 4-5 nights apiece to keep from running out of free RT and HK.



Apparently, some mega renters do things differently... apparently the one who started this mess made a habit of making 2-3 night bookings in the middle of the week, inside the 60 day window, they will run out of HK and RT real quick... YMMV

Or maybe some of them will adapt and try to skirt the restrictions by doing as you suggest


----------



## CO skier

paxsarah said:


> I think you’re ascribing the oft-cited conspiracy theory “Wyndham wants to steal the best reservations from owners to rent for cash” to Wes here, but that’s not what he said. He just suggested that be removing other renters from the market, Wyndham could take an even larger share of the rental market for itself. This doesn’t seem like a conspiracy theory at all.


My point is that Wyndham could have taken complete control of the 60-day rental market, this year or years ago, without any changes to the VIP program.  That is why the theory that the August changes are designed to give Extra Holidays an even larger share of the market just does not hold water.


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## rickandcindy23

paxsarah said:


> All the more reason for an owner to book an earlier, longer reservation. No reason to wait until 60 days, and you want to book fewer, longer reservations to conserve your free HK, RT, and GC. An owner who is booking prime reservations at full point cost only needs to average reservations of 4-5 nights apiece to keep from running out of free RT and HK.


Very true.


----------



## rickandcindy23

troy12n said:


> Apparently, some mega renters do things differently... apparently the one who started this mess made a habit of making 2-3 night bookings in the middle of the week, inside the 60 day window, they will run out of HK and RT real quick... YMMV
> 
> Or maybe some of them will adapt and try to skirt the restrictions by doing as you suggest


You really don't have anything to say that is helpful, as others have suggested in these various threads.  What is the point of this post?  Who started this mess?  I am trying to figure out who in the world you are always talking about.


----------



## HitchHiker71

wjappraise said:


> George.
> First of all thank you for your help navigating these changing times.



Who is George?  I'm not George - so I'm assuming you might be referring to someone else contributing on this thread?  If not, and you're referring to me, you can call me CJ.  



> Second I guess I don’t feel a discussion about mega renters shouldn’t ignore the 800 lb gorilla - Extra Holidays. Perhaps my prior encounters with Wyndham corporate have left me jaded and cynical. But I feel all of this talk by Wyndham of removing mega renters is simply a cover story to attempt a double win for Wyndham. 1) placate owners by ascribing all inventory issues to a vague group known as megarenters. 2) monopolize the secondary Wyndham rental market by running all of EH competitors out of business.
> 
> I see the multi faceted fronts established by Wyndham to accomplish this. I don’t know if anyone has the resources to actively fight it, but I would guess it would require a state attorney general office to feel that the methods reek of monopolistic protectionism (ergo the mafia smack). It seems Wyndham has a flank exposed in that they haven’t defined those owners who use EH for rentals as being commercial use. But if an owner uses any other platform to rent a room they run the risk of being so labeled. That double standard may prove to be their Achilles heel.



Yes, but everyone seems to conveniently omit and/or forget the fact that the MFs fees used for the EH rentals still have to be paid - either by the owner association (the HOA) and/or by Wyndham directly.  My loose understanding is that exactly who pays the fees and who rents the inventory is different across various resorts.  Meaning that in some cases - recovered inventory is sometimes recovered to the association - and sometimes it is recovered by Wyndham via Certified Exit and held by Wyndham.  I've even heard that certain resorts have contractual arrangements whereby a certain percentage of the inventory that comes back through Certified Exit actually comes directly back to the association - Wyndham only gets a portion of the recovered inventory.  I'm unsure how the particulars work for these arrangements - but I've heard about such arrangements in my travels.  Some associations have Wyndham rent the inventory they hold directly - using EH - again under contractual arrangements not unlike the rental agreement that an owner signs when submitting inventory to EH - but I'm sure the T&Cs are not the same.

For the inventory that Wyndham recovers via Certified Exit and/or any other programs - and even for the inventory that Wyndham holds back and never resells to owners - Wyndham must pay the MFs.  So while I wholeheartedly agree that Wyndham is the 800lb gorilla - I don't take issue with Wyndham renting inventory that they actually hold and own - since they must pay MFs to the associations for that inventory.  Does anyone really think it's reasonable to demand that Wyndham hold large amounts of inventory without attempting to recover revenues via rentals?  Would we expect that of any individual owners?  No, we expect owners - whether Wyndham or megarenters - to _use _their inventory in the most efficient manner possible.  Obviously -Wyndham _is _forcing out megarenters - because it's their system and they can do so. Does that mean that Wyndham will rent more? Assuming Wyndham is holding the inventory in question, yes. I would expect nothing else.

The EH T&Cs also plainly state that the entire rental program is only to be used as a last resort - meaning that any/all points owned by individual owners should be used for vacationing, but the EH program exists as a last resort for those owners who cannot use their vacation points for personal use.  It's also worth mentioning that the majority of Wyndham resorts still don't have any rental limitations.  While the blackout list got larger in June - it's still a minority of resorts - and the blackout list itself accounts for a minority of calendar year dates.  So rentals still aren't going away - at least not right now - but the days of being able to use cheap resale inventory for VIP owners by applying VIP discounts and benefits is going away.  



> When Clearwater first opened I wanted to stay there. The only way I was able to do so was via EH. EH had inventory before it was made available to owners on Wyndham website. Like a dog who’s developed a taste for blood, those profits could well have whetted the appetite to take over the lucrative secondary rental market. But to do so Wyndham will force out some of their most lucrative customers. It will be interesting to see if this becomes like Aesop’s fable of the greedy dog who had a bone but wanted the bone of the dog in the reflection and ended up losing both.



I know that Wyndham has some inventory at Clearwater that isn't available via CWP that they hold directly.  This inventory is sometimes used for Wyndham personnel during corporate events at that resort.  When it's not in use - it is rented by Wyndham to help cover fees.  Obviously I have no idea if the room you stayed is Wyndham owned - but it's possible.  



> My situation is I am the gatekeeper for a large hybrid account for our extended family. Our grandparents first bought in as VIP Gold in the Fairfield days. We eventually bought into presidential reserve. We have 18 owners between all of us cousins brothers sisters etc.
> 
> We have more resale points than developer so we are carefully watching this unfold. We may offer a room for rental a handful of times a year. But we just use that to use points and turn some cash back into MF fees. I’m not sure how Wyndham views our account but I’ll probably find out in time. I’m probably a hypocrite because I preach against EH, *but I would use it if I didn’t risk losing numerous nights of a reservation given their current quizzical approach to using owners rentals even if only a night or two is sold.* And that dynamic alone tells me that EH using owners reservations is a cover, that the overwhelming majority of inventory comes from Wyndham directly - a double profit.
> 
> Like it or not - EH is the biggest mega renter by far.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> Wes



The bolded item is my number one complaint for EH - I've had this exact conversation with several sales directors over time.  I'm not sure I understand how Wyndham doubles profits?  If it's Wyndham owned inventory - they have to pay the MFs yes?  So how is the profit doubled?  I might not be understanding the use case you're referring to here.


----------



## dgalati

wjappraise said:


> George.
> First of all thank you for your help navigating these changing times.
> 
> Second I guess I don’t feel a discussion about mega renters shouldn’t ignore the 800 lb gorilla - Extra Holidays. Perhaps my prior encounters with Wyndham corporate have left me jaded and cynical. But I feel all of this talk by Wyndham of removing mega renters is simply a cover story to attempt a double win for Wyndham. 1) placate owners by ascribing all inventory issues to a vague group known as megarenters. 2) monopolize the secondary Wyndham rental market by running all of EH competitors out of business.
> 
> I see the multi faceted fronts established by Wyndham to accomplish this. I don’t know if anyone has the resources to actively fight it, but I would guess it would require a state attorney general office to feel that the methods reek of monopolistic protectionism (ergo the mafia smack). It seems Wyndham has a flank exposed in that they haven’t defined those owners who use EH for rentals as being commercial use. But if an owner uses any other platform to rent a room they run the risk of being so labeled. That double standard may prove to be their Achilles heel.
> 
> When Clearwater first opened I wanted to stay there. The only way I was able to do so was via EH. EH had inventory before it was made available to owners on Wyndham website. Like a dog who’s developed a taste for blood, those profits could well have whetted the appetite to take over the lucrative secondary rental market. But to do so Wyndham will force out some of their most lucrative customers. It will be interesting to see if this becomes like Aesop’s fable of the greedy dog who had a bone but wanted the bone of the dog in the reflection and ended up losing both.
> 
> My situation is I am the gatekeeper for a large hybrid account for our extended family. Our grandparents first bought in as VIP Gold in the Fairfield days. We eventually bought into presidential reserve. We have 18 owners between all of us cousins brothers sisters etc.
> We have more resale points than developer so we are carefully watching this unfold. We may offer a room for rental a handful of times a year. But we just use that to use points and turn some cash back into MF fees. I’m not sure how Wyndham views our account but I’ll probably find out in time. I’m probably a hypocrite because I preach against EH, but I would use it if I didn’t risk losing numerous nights of a reservation given their current quizzical approach to using owners rentals even if only a night or two is sold. And that dynamic alone tells me that EH using owners reservations is a cover, that the overwhelming majority of inventory comes from Wyndham directly - a double profit.
> 
> Like it or not - EH is the biggest mega renter by far.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> Wes


EH is the bag man you can pay for protection. Sometimes the money (or protection) you receive may not always be fair.  As long as you use EH with no required GC's I would bet your account will never be red flagged as a mega renter. Think about that for a second. You can rent millions of points through EH if you cut Wyndham in for a 40% take but don't get greedy and try it by yourself.


----------



## HitchHiker71

rickandcindy23 said:


> You really don't have anything to say that is helpful, as others have suggested in these various threads.  What is the point of this post?  Who started this mess?  I am trying to figure out who in the world you are always talking about.



@troy12n and his posts can be a bit rough around the edges - he has a no nonsense style about him - which I for one appreciate as I will always know exactly where I stand with him - and there's something to be said for that even if others find offense with his style.  I personally can see both sides of the equation - but often don't post my personal thoughts either way, in part because my personal observations, as I've learned over the past two decades, don't align with most others.  Personality tests consistently show that only 3% of the population has my personality traits/type.  I'm very much in the minority in other words - which reinforces my decision not to post my opinions on what others may have done.  So I'm going to now post my own personal opinion - which I may live to regret - but here goes.

I understand Troy's perspective.  In fact most of it resonates with me moreso than the opposite camp ever did - but that's a tendency for me personally - let me explain why in some detail.

Many of the megarenters were and are certainly extremely knowledgeable about the Wyndham system.  But _all of them, without exception _- were running businesses entirely for profit - they were running full blown commercial enterprises. Ron even admitted to having gone from losing his shirt in the Great Recession - to having a paid off home, vehicles, and more - though admittedly not enough to retire on - but that still adds up to hundreds of thousands of dollars easily. If that's not commercial activity - I don't know what is. Many, including Ron, also said they never did anything that broke the rules - yet they all worked within a system that already had commercial use restrictions from the outset - and in 2012 - Wyndham strengthened those commercial restrictions even further. So in point of fact, those that played this game - were not playing by the rules - and the proof of this fact is that in 2016 they were forcibly removed from the entire system. Granted - many of them settled out of court - but had they not - I can confidently surmise that the audit suspensions never would have been lifted - and they would have been forcibly removed at some point. So, with that in mind, as @SueDonJ said - I don't really have any empathy for those that consciously and knowingly made these clear choices - and let's all be 100% honest - these were choices made despite knowing that sooner or later - the game playing would come to an end. I believe Ron even said as much - that another megarenter gave him some sage advice along this line - get in - game the system as much as is humanly possible for as long as humanly possible - make as much money as you can in the process (there's that pesky commercial enterprise reality again) - because sooner or later they will change the game - and your time will be up.

Does this mean I don't admire Ron or other megarenters, or appreciate their knowledge or the fact that they were people that had admirable traits? Or that many on TUG grew fond of these individuals that those of us who are newer to Wyndham never knew?  Nope, certainly not.  In point of fact, I can admire anyone who has the ingenuity and initiative to both form complex systems and to also manipulate complex systems.  At the same time, I can understand Troy's comment about ethics.  I am also one of those types of people who has the ability to game complex systems - but my core values won't allow me to do so - because IME it is the few folks who engage in this type of boundary pushing behavior that often spoil it for the masses.  That's just the way it almost always works out for better or for worse.  This topic reminds me of one of my cardinal ethical rules that I try to live by:  just because we _can _do something, doesn't mean we _should.  _But that's me - that's my rules that I choose to live by and that have served me well over time - though I recognize others play by different rules - even if it rubs me the wrong way when I witness it firsthand - and see the masses lose out as a result.

That said, I also recognize that for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction.  So for any complex system to survive - ironically - we _need _both sides of the equation.  We need those who play by the rules - along with a few who are _rule makers_ and are _all _about playing by the rules, and a few who are _rule breakers_.  I think in terms of 10/80/10.  10% are the rule makers, 80% are the masses, and 10% are the rule breakers.  There are many who believe that the entire system would be better off if both of the outlier classes (the two 10% categories) would simply cease to exist.  But the reality is that those 10% are the very folks who almost always form the complex systems in the first place.  Without those two outlier classes, the complex systems would likely never come to exist.  I'm admittedly mostly in the 80% masses in the middle, and generally tend toward the rule makers group.  Ron and other megarenters tend toward the rule breakers group.  Nothing inherently wrong with either tendency as both are needed for complex systems to function well.

If anything I've said here in any way offended anyone - that was not my intention.  My intention was to show that I can understand both sides of the equation - but I do tend toward the rule maker group - so on occasion if/when I do come across as judgmental when I witness what I perceive as rule breaking behavior - hopefully this post helps to explain why.


----------



## 55plus

This person may also be a mega renter getting out of the business. Finish up renting and sell in the process. This is a current list of rentals and contracts for sale:

Items for sale by time-4-vacation | eBay


----------



## scootr5

55plus said:


> This person may also be a mega renter getting out of the business. Finish up renting and sell in the process. This is a current list of rentals and contracts for sale:
> 
> Items for sale by time-4-vacation | eBay



I think that may be Yvonne Klebba.


----------



## Cyrus24

Deleted.


----------



## rickandcindy23

scootr5 said:


> I think that may be Yvonne Klebba.


TimeshareVon?


----------



## scootr5

No, search her name here and you’ll find she was involved in one of the lawsuits with Wyndham.


----------



## am1

55plus said:


> This person may also be a mega renter getting out of the business. Finish up renting and sell in the process. This is a current list of rentals and contracts for sale:
> 
> Items for sale by time-4-vacation | eBay



$10 shipping for what?


----------



## Ty1on

She also blasts FREE CLOSING! on the item title but hangs the transfer fee on the buyer.


----------



## CO skier

paxsarah said:


> All the more reason for an owner to book an earlier, longer reservation. No reason to wait until 60 days, and you want to book fewer, longer reservations to conserve your free HK, RT, and GC. An owner who is booking prime reservations at full point cost only needs to average reservations of 4-5 nights apiece to keep from running out of free RT and HK.


A megarenter who moves from using resale points at a 50% discount within 60-days to booking earlier, longer reservations will use up the resale points twice as fast and leaving 100% of the reservations within 60-days for other owners to book using the full points costs.


----------



## 55plus

scootr5 said:


> I think that may be Yvonne Klebba.


Klebba et al v. Wyndham Vacation Resorts Inc et al








						Klebba et al v. Wyndham Vacation Resorts Inc et al (6:13-cv-01322), Florida Middle District Court
					

Klebba et al v. Wyndham Vacation Resorts Inc et al (6:13-cv-01322), Florida Middle District Court, Filed: 08/28/2013




					www.pacermonitor.com


----------



## Jan M.

55plus said:


> Klebba et al v. Wyndham Vacation Resorts Inc et al
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Klebba et al v. Wyndham Vacation Resorts Inc et al (6:13-cv-01322), Florida Middle District Court
> 
> 
> Klebba et al v. Wyndham Vacation Resorts Inc et al (6:13-cv-01322), Florida Middle District Court, Filed: 08/28/2013
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pacermonitor.com



What was the outcome?


----------



## wjappraise

HitchHiker71 said:


> Who is George? I'm not George - so I'm assuming you might be referring to someone else contributing on this thread? If not, and you're referring to me, you can call me CJ.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but everyone seems to conveniently omit and/or forget the fact that the MFs fees used for the EH rentals still have to be paid - either by the owner association (the HOA) and/or by Wyndham directly. My loose understanding is that exactly who pays the fees and who rents the inventory is different across various resorts. Meaning that in some cases - recovered inventory is sometimes recovered to the association - and sometimes it is recovered by Wyndham via Certified Exit and held by Wyndham. I've even heard that certain resorts have contractual arrangements whereby a certain percentage of the inventory that comes back through Certified Exit actually comes directly back to the association - Wyndham only gets a portion of the recovered inventory. I'm unsure how the particulars work for these arrangements - but I've heard about such arrangements in my travels. Some associations have Wyndham rent the inventory they hold directly - using EH - again under contractual arrangements not unlike the rental agreement that an owner signs when submitting inventory to EH - but I'm sure the T&Cs are not the same.
> 
> For the inventory that Wyndham recovers via Certified Exit and/or any other programs - and even for the inventory that Wyndham holds back and never resells to owners - Wyndham must pay the MFs. So while I wholeheartedly agree that Wyndham is the 800lb gorilla - I don't take issue with Wyndham renting inventory that they actually hold and own - since they must pay MFs to the associations for that inventory. Does anyone really think it's reasonable to demand that Wyndham hold large amounts of inventory without attempting to recover revenues via rentals? Would we expect that of any individual owners? No, we expect owners - whether Wyndham or megarenters - to _use _their inventory in the most efficient manner possible. Obviously -Wyndham _is _forcing out megarenters - because it's their system and they can do so. Does that mean that Wyndham will rent more? Assuming Wyndham is holding the inventory in question, yes. I would expect nothing else.
> 
> The EH T&Cs also plainly state that the entire rental program is only to be used as a last resort - meaning that any/all points owned by individual owners should be used for vacationing, but the EH program exists as a last resort for those owners who cannot use their vacation points for personal use. It's also worth mentioning that the majority of Wyndham resorts still don't have any rental limitations. While the blackout list got larger in June - it's still a minority of resorts - and the blackout list itself accounts for a minority of calendar year dates. So rentals still aren't going away - at least not right now - but the days of being able to use cheap resale inventory for VIP owners by applying VIP discounts and benefits is going away.
> 
> 
> 
> I know that Wyndham has some inventory at Clearwater that isn't available via CWP that they hold directly. This inventory is sometimes used for Wyndham personnel during corporate events at that resort. When it's not in use - it is rented by Wyndham to help cover fees. Obviously I have no idea if the room you stayed is Wyndham owned - but it's possible.
> 
> 
> 
> The bolded item is my number one complaint for EH - I've had this exact conversation with several sales directors over time. I'm not sure I understand how Wyndham doubles profits? If it's Wyndham owned inventory - they have to pay the MFs yes? So how is the profit doubled? I might not be understanding the use case you're referring to here.



Thanks CJ. Sorry for the George renaming. Not sure how I came up with that. 

It will be interesting to see it play out. I truly hope I’m wrong about my concerns about the mafia hits put out to make EH the only game in town. But I fear I am right. 

It would be interesting to see if Florida attorney general decided to take a look at the activity. Can you imagine the corporate reaction to subpoenas for discovery of sources for EH inventory? Or subpoenas for the internal emails? Maybe I’m watching too many Tom Clancy movies. 

Wes.


----------



## 55plus

Jan M. said:


> What was the outcome?


Unknown. I don't know what it was about. Maybe the unlimited guest certificate change? I know the change angered a lot of VIPP members and there was talk of suing. Thirty free GCs is way too many for me, but not enough for others. I guess the change ate into their profits.


----------



## CO skier

wjappraise said:


> It would be interesting to see if Florida attorney general decided to take a look at the activity. Can you imagine the corporate reaction to subpoenas for discovery of sources for EH inventory?


Probably a few eye-rolls and maybe a yawn at the prospect of wasting their time.

"
11.08 Wyndham Use.* In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. *All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use. In addition, to the extent more Points are available in the Plan than are allocated to Members other
than Wyndham, Wyndham may sell or lease Points on such terms as Wyndham and the Trustee deem reasonable. The purchasers or lessees of such Points shall have such Membership rights as Wyndham and the Trustee deem appropriate."


----------



## am1

55plus said:


> Unknown. I don't know what it was about. Maybe the unlimited guest certificate change? I know the change angered a lot of VIPP members and there was talk of suing. Thirty free GCs is way too many for me, but not enough for others. I guess the change ate into their profits.



I started to book larger units at higher value locations.  Then all the ways I got free guest confirmations I wrote about before.  Add two names to a 3 way split reservation and cancel the middle stay but the two names stayed on the first Fri-Sun as well as the second Fri -Sun.  Person who purchased the first reservation checks in and out and then 5 days later the person sho purchased the second weekend checks in and out.  All for $99 as the website was not set up to do a 3 part split reservation or otherwise in would be $129 which I did not want to have to spend the extra $30 on.  After that I started traveling a few times and the front desk was more then happy to add the guest names directly at the resort the day of check in or a few cases where it would be up to a week out when showed in their system.  Then when contracts were moved from one account to another (a way to transfer points as the contract would be loaded with 3 years of points when transferring) new guest confirmations would show up in the account receiving the new contracts.  This was a by product of having to move points around to be able to book 10 units at a resort at the same time.  A happy accident that Wyndham had no idea how to resolve or address.  Still over the years I paid high 5 figures in guest fees.


----------



## 55plus

It looks like the points in these contracts are gone until 2022. Will Wyndham do a transfer or will points have to be purchased/added to the contract before the transfer can proceed?








						Items for sale by time-4-vacation | eBay
					

Shop eBay for great deals from time-4-vacation!



					www.ebay.com


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> It looks like the points in these contracts are gone until 2022. Will Wyndham do a transfer or will points have to be purchased/added to the contract before the transfer can proceed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Items for sale by time-4-vacation | eBay
> 
> 
> Shop eBay for great deals from time-4-vacation!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


Current use year points can be used but beware if owner has no current use year points available and has any ownership their account will show a negative balance. I f you sell and have no other ownership available it still transfers just like if Ovations takes it back at a $0 cost.


----------



## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> Who is George?  I'm not George - so I'm assuming you might be referring to someone else contributing on this thread?  If not, and you're referring to me, you can call me CJ.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but everyone seems to conveniently omit and/or forget the fact that the MFs fees used for the EH rentals still have to be paid - either by the owner association (the HOA) and/or by Wyndham directly.  My loose understanding is that exactly who pays the fees and who rents the inventory is different across various resorts.  Meaning that in some cases - recovered inventory is sometimes recovered to the association - and sometimes it is recovered by Wyndham via Certified Exit and held by Wyndham.  I've even heard that certain resorts have contractual arrangements whereby a certain percentage of the inventory that comes back through Certified Exit actually comes directly back to the association - Wyndham only gets a portion of the recovered inventory.  I'm unsure how the particulars work for these arrangements - but I've heard about such arrangements in my travels.  Some associations have Wyndham rent the inventory they hold directly - using EH - again under contractual arrangements not unlike the rental agreement that an owner signs when submitting inventory to EH - but I'm sure the T&Cs are not the same.
> 
> For the inventory that Wyndham recovers via Certified Exit and/or any other programs - and even for the inventory that Wyndham holds back and never resells to owners - Wyndham must pay the MFs.  So while I wholeheartedly agree that Wyndham is the 800lb gorilla - I don't take issue with Wyndham renting inventory that they actually hold and own - since they must pay MFs to the associations for that inventory.  Does anyone really think it's reasonable to demand that Wyndham hold large amounts of inventory without attempting to recover revenues via rentals?  Would we expect that of any individual owners?  No, we expect owners - whether Wyndham or megarenters - to _use _their inventory in the most efficient manner possible.  Obviously -Wyndham _is _forcing out megarenters - because it's their system and they can do so. Does that mean that Wyndham will rent more? Assuming Wyndham is holding the inventory in question, yes. I would expect nothing else.
> 
> The EH T&Cs also plainly state that the entire rental program is only to be used as a last resort - meaning that any/all points owned by individual owners should be used for vacationing, but the EH program exists as a last resort for those owners who cannot use their vacation points for personal use.  It's also worth mentioning that the majority of Wyndham resorts still don't have any rental limitations.  While the blackout list got larger in June - it's still a minority of resorts - and the blackout list itself accounts for a minority of calendar year dates.  So rentals still aren't going away - at least not right now - but the days of being able to use cheap resale inventory for VIP owners by applying VIP discounts and benefits is going away.
> 
> 
> 
> I know that Wyndham has some inventory at Clearwater that isn't available via CWP that they hold directly.  This inventory is sometimes used for Wyndham personnel during corporate events at that resort.  When it's not in use - it is rented by Wyndham to help cover fees.  Obviously I have no idea if the room you stayed is Wyndham owned - but it's possible.
> 
> 
> 
> The bolded item is my number one complaint for EH - I've had this exact conversation with several sales directors over time.  I'm not sure I understand how Wyndham doubles profits?  If it's Wyndham owned inventory - they have to pay the MFs yes?  So how is the profit doubled?  I might not be understanding the use case you're referring to here.


Goerge is @bogey21


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> A megarenter who moves from using resale points at a 50% discount within 60-days to booking earlier, longer reservations will use up the resale points twice as fast and leaving 100% of the reservations within 60-days for other owners to book using the full points costs.


Amen brother! Makes me want to buy more points to book the new availability!


----------



## CO skier

dgalati said:


> Amen brother! Makes me want to buy more points to book the new availability!


You will have to if you want to continue vacationing within Club Wyndham, because there will be little available at "less than maintenance fees."


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> You will have to if you want to continue vacationing within Club Wyndham, because there will be little available at "less than maintenance fees."


We will see. No problem going back and buying points. This was always by gripe, why buy if its cheaper to rent? I have a feeling there will still be cheap rentals for my travel needs.


----------



## Ty1on

Jan M. said:


> What was the outcome?



The Klebbas withdrew the case in 2017

Notice of Dismissal filed by plaintiffs


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

dgalati said:


> We will see.........I have a feeling there will still be cheap rentals for my travel needs.


Only time will tell -
I am not questioning your theory / I would like to read your Aug. 2022 thread on you it worked out.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

dgalati said:


> We will see. No problem going back and buying points. This was always by gripe, why buy if its cheaper to rent? .....


Should you buy points now while the resale market is flooded  and hedge your bets ?


----------



## CO skier

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Should you buy points now while the resale market is flooded  and hedge your bets ?


In every recent year, selling prices are lower in the fall/winter.  The only reason to buy now would be if it meets some specific need, or to have the contract transfer in time to have all of 2022 to use the 2022 Use Year points.

Another reason to wait is that every month delayed is one month less of maintenance fees to pay once the contract transfers.


----------



## Eric B

> .
> Quote of deleted political rant removed



If you believe that mechanics’ liens are new and limited to Florida, you haven’t owned homes in many other States.  The potential is fairly universal and a good reason to pay subcontractors and material suppliers directly.  That’s how we’ve dealt with the issue when we’ve done upgrades to houses in several States.






						Mechanic's lien - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## dgalati

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Should you buy points now while the resale market is flooded  and hedge your bets ?


I just purchased a 400k deeded low cost maintenance fee CWS at $375 all in. If I have to I can always give away after I use current use year points if the market permits renting for less. Keeping all options available and having a backup plan.


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> In every recent year, selling prices are lower in the fall/winter.  The only reason to buy now would be if it meets some specific need, or to have the contract transfer in time to have all of 2022 to use the 2022 Use Year points.
> 
> Another reason to wait is that every month delayed is one month less of maintenance fees to pay once the contract transfers.


Its a July use year. No worries I have it covered. I figure transfer by beginning of 2022. This should give me 800k of points to use in a little over 6 month time span. Even if I pay the $180 per month in maintenance fees Its still a great deal at around $2.70/1000


----------



## lost patience

55plus said:


> I would think the system would block the transaction from going through unless the owner also had a reservation for themselves. I have 28 guests certificates left so I a reservation for me and a fake guest. Then cancel my reservation and see if the system cancels the guest reservation. I hope it does cancel it or there's a problem.


Wouldn't you need to have 3 in guest names?  Two would be the 2 that are allowed each year.  The 3rd would be the one that would not be allowed.


----------



## CO skier

dgalati said:


> Its a July use year. No worries I have it covered. I figure transfer by beginning of 2022. This should give me 800k of points to use in a little over 6 month time span. Even if I pay the $180 per month in maintenance fees Its still a great deal at around $2.70/1000


Like a few other posters, it seems you change your tune when Wyndham changes the rules.

Now you are ready to commit for 800k worth of maintenance fees?  Ummmmm ... I don't know.



In April 2020 dgalati said:


> I agree on renting. The way I travel its cheaper for me to rent then to pay maintenance fees.  Also I like no commitment to the finacial burden of paying maintenance fees. Especially now with the resorts all closed but fees continue.


----------



## dgalati

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Only time will tell -
> I am not questioning your theory / I would like to read your Aug. 2022 thread on you it worked out.


HEY HEY HEY! You have to be smarter then the average bear Ranger Smith!


----------



## scootr5

55plus said:


> Unknown. I don't know what it was about. Maybe the unlimited guest certificate change? I know the change angered a lot of VIPP members and there was talk of suing. Thirty free GCs is way too many for me, but not enough for others. I guess the change ate into their profits.



That was basically it, along with throwing in a deceptive sales practices claim saying that Wynnencouraged them to buy for rental. They owned over 50 million points.


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> Like a few other posters, it seems you change your tune when Wyndham changes the rules.
> 
> Now you are ready to commit for 800k worth of maintenance fees?  Ummmmm ... I don't know.


Its only 400k with 400k available in 6 months total of 800k. If I am lucky the sellers paid maintenance fee in full for the year. Like @am1 said you have to adapt and change your strategy if you want to survive.


----------



## troy12n

dgalati said:


> Its only 400k with 400k available in 6 months total of 800k. If I am lucky the sellers paid maintenance fee in full for the year. Like @am1 said you have to adapt and change your strategy if you want to survive.



So is your long term strategy to hold this or use next year and dump it?


----------



## ronparise

Ty1on said:


> I think you're making a bit of a non-sequitur here in regard to the people calling sales weasels liars.
> 
> Firstly, many of these very smart and experienced folks are smart and experienced because they were duped by salespeople.  They warn others because they don't want them to fall in the same trap.  So "You call them liars but you fell for the lies" is cart before horse.  They fell for lies, and now call them liars.
> 
> Secondly, the resale loophole wasn't a lie per se.  It was an exploit salesmen taught in order to convince smart and experienced folks to buy from them.  The weasels didn't know Wyndham would crack down on this exploit, or when.  And, of course, if they did know, they weren't going to share that information with their marks.
> 
> I personally share the satisfaction of many other owners in this loophole closure, but a little bit of empathy for the owners this affects and how they got to where this affects them would go a long way.




Its been a while.  but didnt  Wyndham figure out how to deal with the "cancel/rebook for a discount" thing. And if thats the case. the only discounts available would be 60 days ahead of check in. 
Has anyone really been able to make any money renting the time that  no owners  want to use?

My point is that


dioxide45 said:


> I have no skin in the game, but the comment about "paid all my maintenance fees" isn't necessarily accurate is it? Does Wyndham require prepaying MFs on points borrowed from future years?




I didnt  pay the maintenance for 2015 points when I used them  in 2013...thats correct,  but someone else did...You have to understand how the credit pool worked to get that

The credit pool allowed an owner to deposit his current years points into the credit pool and use them at any time from the day of deposit to up to three years out,  It also allowed  an owner to deposit the next years points and the following years points into the pool, and use them at any time from the date of deposit to three years out   What that meant for me is that if I bought a contract in 2013, I could deposit the 2013, 2014 and 2015 points into the pool and use them immediately.  If  that was all there was to the story you would be correct,,,i used the points but didnt have to pay for them until later 

But there is more to the story than that....   When I used the 2015 points in 2013 I really didnt use my 2015 points... I actually used someone else's 2013 points that he deposited.  (and was paying maintenance fees for.)  My 2015 points stayed in the pool for someone else to use in 2015 and that I was obligated to pay the fees for.

It never happened to me, but it was possible to go to the pool to make a reservation and the pool would be empty for that year. To make a reservation you would have to wait until someone else deposited their points


----------



## ronparise

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Ethics - sometimes the standpoint is based on where you are standing and where you come from.
> 
> One day a poster showed up in the Wyndham forum - asking what do do -  I believe they were a couple of months in arrears on MF - and personal life circumstances were difficult. ; and so they were staring at a foreclosure / collection process  ........       [ this  was before Ovations was a publicized program.]
> 
> At that time  - @ronparise was regularly buying Wyndham contracts off eBay at an average of a penny a point . As I recall - he offered to take the contract , which also meant bringing the MF current so he could use the points he would own .
> This particular contract cost him more than a penny a point / his comment as I recall -"for him , in the big picture  the meter would not move enough to matter - but for the OP it was a hugh reduction in financial stress.
> 
> MY remembrance of how ethics can work




Thanks for remembering that.. Something else I remember is booking 10 or so rooms at a resort  for a group of special needs kids and their parents. As I recall I had renter a room to one family for a week. They  intended to host  several other families and their kids for an afternoon swim party. the resort didnt like that all those, "non guests" were using the pool. So I made the additional reservations...now everyone was a guest


----------



## troy12n

Eric B said:


> If you believe that mechanics’ liens are new and limited to Florida, you haven’t owned homes in many other States.  The potential is fairly universal and a good reason to pay subcontractors and material suppliers directly.  That’s how we’ve dealt with the issue when we’ve done upgrades to houses in several States.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mechanic's lien - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org



You don't need to mansplain Liens to me.

They serve a purpose, but not all states allow a *SUB* to come after a *homeowner* for the failings of the *GC*... In fact it didn't used to be like that here. A certain political party (I will let you guess which one) in an effort to pander to their construction company buddies and poltical contributors, changed the rules about 15 years ago so that they could do this.

Prior to that, Florida followed the typical "intent" of a mechanics lien, which is to prevent a *HOMEOWNER* from stiffing a contractor... that's fine. But in the case I gave, completely innocent homeowners can lose their homes because of a non-performing GC didn't pay their subs or suppliers.

*THAT* is wrong, outrageous actually... re-read my original post


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

troy12n said:


> So is your long term strategy to hold this or use next year and dump it?



I will answer the general question / and then let @dgalati answer the specific.

I have learned from a 30 something that the best answer with credit cards and their " sign up points "
Is to develop a churn and burn strategy - to maximize your leverage.

The answer on when to dump a card and pick up a new one is based variables that include what new card opportunities are available next year.

it appears to me that @dgalati as applied this process to timeshares / vacations / Wyndham points.


----------



## CO skier

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Ethics - sometimes the standpoint is based on where you are standing and where you come from.
> 
> One day a poster showed up in the Wyndham forum - asking what do do -  I believe they were a couple of months in arrears on MF - and personal life circumstances were difficult. ; and so they were staring at a foreclosure / collection process  ........       [ this  was before Ovations was a publicized program.]
> 
> At that time  - @ronparise was regularly buying Wyndham contracts off eBay at an average of a penny a point . As I recall - he offered to take the contract , which also meant bringing the MF current so he could use the points he would own .
> This particular contract cost him more than a penny a point / his comment as I recall -"for him , in the big picture  the meter would not move enough to matter - but for the OP it was a hugh reduction in financial stress.
> 
> MY remembrance of how ethics can work


Then there is the obverse



In May 2016 ronparise said:


> At the meeting there was a Presidential Reserve/Platinum owner that was complaining that he was losing far too many reservations when doing the cancel/rebook/upgrade thing. His point was that he had paid for this benefit, and now he couldnt count on using it
> 
> So its not just the mega owners screwing over the little guy just trying to have a vacation with his family Its other little guys too (yes I consider anything under about 10 million points to be little when compared to the mega renters)
> 
> and yes sales is part of the problem by setting expectations too high.. they convince the average owner that he can go where he wants when he wants and he convinces the VIP buyer that he can do it at half price
> 
> and of course Im part of the problem too becauseI rub their(the other owners) noses in the reality of it all


Is this the thinking of a "nice guy?"

Which was the karma in the end?


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

CO skier said:


> Then there is the obverse
> 
> 
> Is this the thinking of a "nice guy?"
> 
> Which was the karma in the end?



I don't think @ronparise sold that Presidential Reserve owner his contract. Wyndham's nice guy salesperson did ,
and likely focused on what that salesperson perceived as benefits and features that the client wanted.

Also - The concept of "nice guy" likely only has a tangential connection to ethics / and the inverse .

karma ? - I am not sure.
[ some light candles and some buy indulgences] - who am I to say which is right and which is wrong
when it comes to eternity.


----------



## CO skier

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> I don't think @ronparise sold that Presidential Reserve owner his contract. Wyndham's nice guy salesperson did ,
> and likely focused on what that salesperson perceived as the benifits and features that the client wanted.
> 
> Also - The concept of "nice guy" likely only has a tangential connection to ethics / and the inverse .


In all the posts about salespeople, no ever claimed a saleperson was rubbing peoples' noses in anything.

You did not address the second question.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

duplicate


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

2nd question


T-Dot-Traveller said:


> karma ? - I am not sure.
> [ some light candles and some buy indulgences] - who am I to say which is right and which is wrong
> when it comes to eternity.


----------



## tschwa2

ronparise said:


> Its been a while.  but didnt  Wyndham figure out how to deal with the "cancel/rebook for a discount" thing. And if thats the case. the only discounts available would be 60 days ahead of check in.
> Has anyone really been able to make any money renting the time that  no owners  want to use?


My understanding is you won't be able to use your unlimited transactions, unlimited HK and possibly even the guest certs that you earn as gold/platinum if you are using them on a reservation that isn't 100% VIP eligible points.  So Wyndham will be collecting more fees even on undiscounted reservation using those non vip points.  And the discounts aren't always on reservations no one wants.  They are also on reservations that were taken but then cancelled for a variety of reasons not always because no one wants to use.


----------



## CO skier

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Only time will tell -
> I am not questioning your theory / I would like to read your Aug. 2022 thread on you it worked out.


Do you really think there would be any more truth in his posts a year from now than what he is posting now?  When there is no verifying posts, anything goes.


----------



## CO skier

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> karma ? - I am not sure.
> [ some light candles and some buy indulgences] - who am I to say which is right and which is wrong
> when it comes to eternity.


Let me be more specific, "Which Wyndham karma proved true in the end?"

I know you are not a Wyndham owner and do not understand the subtleties, but the answer should be obvious even to someone like you.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

CO skier said:


> Do you really think there would be any more truth in his posts a year from now than what he is posting now?  When there is no verifying posts, anything goes.



I would assume that the TUG last minute rental forum in spring 2022 will give all of some information as to whether below MF rentals are available
with or without posts from any specific member.


----------



## CO skier

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> I would assume that the TUG last minute rental forum in spring 2022 will give all of some information as to whether below MF rentals are available
> with or without posts from any specific member.


Definitely, and Ebay, too!

Take Ebay screenshots of rentals now for comparison.

Do not let anyone invent fake information about the past a year from now.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

CO skier said:


> Let me be more specific, "Which Wyndham karma proved true in the end?"
> 
> I know you are not a Wyndham owner and do not understand the subtleties, but it should be obvious even to someone like you.


The Golden Rule
They who own the gold - make the rules..

I have read most of the major TUG  Wyndham forum  threads in the last 6+ years.

I agree that greater potential access to .prime reservations by owners for personal use is a good idea.
BUT - it does not increase the number of units or prime weeks and getting rid of mega renters does not reduce the number of points in circulation.


----------



## CO skier

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> BUT - it does not increase the number of units or prime weeks and getting rid of mega renters does not reduce the number of points in circulation.


This just confirms your complete lack of knowledge of how the August changes to the VIP program will put more owners and fewer renters on vacation in Club Wyndham.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

CO skier said:


> ....... the August changes to the VIP program will put more owners and fewer renters on vacation in Club Wyndham.


I agree 100 %

BUT - it could also result in more unhappy NEW owners.
let's hypothetically assume the majority of the points that will be dumped by "mega renters" filter back to Wyndham  AND all are resold
[ie . not put permanently into Extra Holidays] . The result will be more owners chasing the same number of units in prime weeks.

Then the merry go round of sales telling folks- if they buy more points with the right ARP they can get the reservation they want etc.

For Wyndham it will make an even better perpetual motion $ machine.
Like ever TS company - Wyndham sells vacation dreams.


----------



## CO skier

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> I agree 100 %
> 
> BUT - it could also result in more unhappy NEW owners.
> let's hypothetically assume the majority of the points that will be dumped by "mega renters" filter back to Wyndham  AND all are resold
> [ie . not put permanently into Extra Holidays] . The result will be more owners chasing the same number of units in prime weeks.
> 
> Then the merry go round of sales telling folks- if they buy more points with the right ARP they can get the reservation they want.
> 
> For Wyndham it will make an even better perpetual motion $ machine.
> Like ever TS company - Wyndham sells vacation dreams.


You really should stop posting about what you do not know, because you just keep exposing your complete lack of knowledge about how Club Wyndham works.


----------



## Sandi Bo

dgalati said:


> I just purchased a 400k deeded low cost maintenance fee CWS at $375 all in. If I have to I can always give away after I use current use year points if the market permits renting for less. Keeping all options available and having a backup plan.


When you say give it away... it won't be to Wyndham, correct?  I was thinking Certified Exit has a waiting period on taking back resales.  I have not done this, nor do I plan to, but don't want people to have the wrong impression.  I don't believe you can purchase something, essentially strip it of it's present use, and then give it to Wyndham.   I was thinking they make you wait a year before they will take it, anyone know?


----------



## Sandi Bo

CO skier said:


> A megarenter who moves from using resale points at a 50% discount within 60-days to booking earlier, longer reservations will use up the resale points twice as fast and leaving 100% of the reservations within 60-days for other owners to book using the full points costs.


I never hear anyone mention the discounts Wyndham seems to routinely offer. Those resale points may still enjoy discounts, some I have seen are pretty significant. Rarely do we hear about discounts non-VIP owners receive. Likely because Wyndham would rather not draw attention to that. How many reservations are truly booked at full points costs?


----------



## Eric B

troy12n said:


> You don't need to mansplain Liens to me.
> 
> They serve a purpose, but not all states allow a *SUB* to come after a *homeowner* for the failings of the *GC*... In fact it didn't used to be like that here. A certain political party (I will let you guess which one) in an effort to pander to their construction company buddies and poltical contributors, changed the rules about 15 years ago so that they could do this.
> 
> Prior to that, Florida followed the typical "intent" of a mechanics lien, which is to prevent a *HOMEOWNER* from stiffing a contractor... that's fine. But in the case I gave, completely innocent homeowners can lose their homes because of a non-performing GC didn't pay their subs or suppliers.
> 
> *THAT* is wrong, outrageous actually... re-read my original post



At the risk of being accused of further mansplaining, or more accurately lawsplaining, the Wikipedia article I linked does a good job of covering the history and purposes of mechanics’ liens.  In particular, it notes that without them, “subcontractors providing either labor or materials may have no effective remedy if their general contractor is not sufficiently financially responsible, because their only contractual right is with that general contractor.”

I lawsplained earlier on this subject based on my personal experiences with subcontractors not getting paid in different States.  I don’t believe it’s a political issue or unique to Florida as it was in a locale where the political spectrum tilted the other way.  (I do tend to try to avoid posting about politics here as the TUG rules discourage that.)

My experience involved a general contractor that poorly managed his finances on a different job and used the funds I provided to cover his costs there, deferring payment to suppliers on my job.  The net result was that I had a mechanics’ lien put on my property to cover a few hundred dollars in costs for cement, which I wound up paying in order to clear the lien - the general contractor went bankrupt within the year.

Like it or not, mechanics’ liens serve a purpose that has nothing to do with politics, though I have no doubt that there can be overheated discussions of them in politics.  I’m sure no one really wants subcontractors to have no guarantee of any type that they would be paid - it would be much less “fair” than the idea of someone that spent a lot on VIP status with a timeshare company getting discounts on usage they bought resale following the systems and processes set up by that timeshare company.  For the subcontractors, they would actually exist as people that directly lose out on the transactions rather than the timeshare company absorbing the costs of its poor decisionmaking in setting up and running a complex incentive system to encourage sales.

As for the homeowners that can be at risk due to a mechanics’ lien, they choose the general contractors and can supervise them as they see fit.  If they choose not to use fund control systems to ensure the subcontractors are paid, they are taking on risks of nonpayment.  My personal choice since I had problems decades ago in this area was to do my own fund control and manage the risk.  YMMV.


----------



## dgalati

Sandi Bo said:


> When you say give it away... it won't be to Wyndham, correct?  I was thinking Certified Exit has a waiting period on taking back resales.  I have not done this, nor do I plan to, but don't want people to have the wrong impression.  I don't believe you can purchase something, essentially strip it of it's present use, and then give it to Wyndham.   I was thinking they make you wait a year before they will take it, anyone know?


Depending on what happens to the rental market I may keep ownership to travel. Holding it for 18 months to get 3 years of use is also a option if I keep it for more then a year. Yes you have to own it for one year before giving back to Wyndham. I had them accept 2 deeds that I only owned for 4 months and when I pointed this out to them it killed the deal. I believe it would have transferred if I didn't bring it to their attention. I have also heard that they have taken a few TUG posters deeds back without them owning for a year. Its a moving target and as always you need to call and find out if your ownership qualifies.


----------



## paxsarah

Sandi Bo said:


> How many reservations are truly booked at full points costs?


For me, it’s over 90%. I could probably count on one hand the number of reservations I’ve made in 10 years at discounted points.

Because I can’t count on those discounts. I don’t know where is going to be discounted and when. There was also a few years where they stopped offering those discounts entirely. It’s a completely different ownership mindset than VIP. VIP gets the most out of their ownership booking inside 60 days. I get the most out of my ownership booking at 10 months. I can’t count on getting the most out of my points by waiting, so I don’t. I have 3 months to use points deposit, which if I’m booking at 10 months is generally not a problem. By March I’ve booked all of my stays for the year and I deposit the rest.


----------



## Eric B

Sandi Bo said:


> I never hear anyone mention the discounts Wyndham seems to routinely offer. Those resale points may still enjoy discounts, some I have seen are pretty significant. Rarely do we hear about discounts non-VIP owners receive. Likely because Wyndham would rather not draw attention to that. How many reservations are truly booked at full points costs?



I’ve seen a number of posts by @cbyrne1174 about the routine discounts in Florida resorts. She makes pretty good use of them.  Right now there aren’t a lot available and none in the East and Southeast, though.  That’s no doubt because of the large number of unused points and higher demand driving up prices - Econ 101.  In a year or two we should start seeing the discounts in their normal patterns as they are fundamentally the only real tool Wyndham has to correct for resorts that were priced too high in points when they entered the system.


----------



## dgalati

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> I will answer the general question / and then let @dgalati answer the specific.
> 
> I have learned from a 30 something that the best answer with credit cards and their " sign up points "
> Is to develop a churn and burn strategy - to maximize your leverage.
> 
> The answer on when to dump a card and pick up a new one is based variables that include what new card opportunities are available next year.
> 
> it appears to me that @dgalati as applied this process to timeshares / vacations / Wyndham points.


I do know a little on how to churn credit cards for the bonus money or airline miles. I have not bought a airline ticket in close to 10 years. I also know that bonus points can be used as a purchase easer or credit with no 1099. Bonus money is not taxable.


----------



## Sandi Bo

CO skier said:


> Definitely, and Ebay, too!
> 
> Take Ebay screenshots of rentals now for comparison.
> 
> Do not let anyone invent fake information about the past a year from now.


You can't compare August to April. Prime time to Value season, Apples to Oranges.

I know it wasn't you commenting on less rentals in LMR know but I'll comment on that while I'm here. I would venture to say LMR rentals (at least for Wyndhams) are always down during prime season versus value.


----------



## dgalati

Sandi Bo said:


> I never hear anyone mention the discounts Wyndham seems to routinely offer. Those resale points may still enjoy discounts, some I have seen are pretty significant. Rarely do we hear about discounts non-VIP owners receive. Likely because Wyndham would rather not draw attention to that. How many reservations are truly booked at full points costs?


Personally I have never booked or rented outside of the discount window. For my travel needs it works great but may not be for everyone. Especially if you need that 3 bedroom during spring break in Florida.


----------



## dgalati

Sandi Bo said:


> You can't compare August to April. Prime time to Value season, Apples to Oranges.


Wyndham sees it this way also with the points discounts during prime or value season.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

CO skier said:


> You really should stop posting about what you do not know, because you just keep exposing your complete lack of knowledge about how Club Wyndham works.


Then please educate me  / or at least explain how this is not one possible outcome.



T-Dot-Traveller said:


> ...BUT - it could also result in more unhappy NEW owners.
> let's hypothetically assume the majority of the points that will be dumped by "mega renters" filter back to Wyndham  AND all are resold
> [ie . not put permanently into Extra Holidays] . The result will be more owners chasing the same number of units in prime weeks.
> 
> Then the merry go round of sales telling folks- if they buy more points with the right ARP they can get the reservation they want etc.
> 
> For Wyndham it will make an even better perpetual motion $ machine.
> Like ever TS company - Wyndham sells vacation dreams.


----------



## dgalati

Eric B said:


> I’ve seen a number of posts by @cbyrne1174 about the routine discounts in Florida resorts. She makes pretty good use of them.  Right now there aren’t a lot available and none in the East and Southeast, though.  That’s no doubt because of the large number of unused points and higher demand driving up prices - Econ 101.  In a year or two we should start seeing the discounts in their normal patterns as they are fundamentally the only real tool Wyndham has to correct for resorts that were priced too high in points when they entered the system.


@cbyrne1174 has mastered using the system for her travel needs. In the most cost effective way she travels and enjoys the discounts without a sunk cost of buying up to VIP. The only perk she can not receive unless she rents from a VIP is the free room upgrade. But then again I wouldn't be surprised if she received a free room upgrade at check-in a few times.


----------



## Roger830

Eric B said:


> I’ve seen a number of posts by @cbyrne1174 about the routine discounts in Florida resorts.



We spend 6-7 weeks in Florida in the Jan-Feb timeframe. 

The only discount that I consistently noticed is Panama City starting  from week 7 and moving forward, perhaps because those weeks are labeled prime season and with the points to book so high, there isn't much demand.  I've been tempted to stop there, but with temperature much lower than Daytona or Orlando, and after being in mild weather in south Florida, I don't want to drive 500 miles out of my way to be cold. Myrtle Beach offers even better value at that time.


----------



## dgalati

Wyndham Grand desert had discounts available for June.


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> For me, it’s over 90%. I could probably count on one hand the number of reservations I’ve made in 10 years at discounted points.
> 
> Because I can’t count on those discounts. I don’t know where is going to be discounted and when. There was also a few years where they stopped offering those discounts entirely. It’s a completely different ownership mindset than VIP. VIP gets the most out of their ownership booking inside 60 days. I get the most out of my ownership booking at 10 months. I can’t count on getting the most out of my points by waiting, so I don’t. I have 3 months to use points deposit, which if I’m booking at 10 months is generally not a problem. By March I’ve booked all of my stays for the year and I deposit the rest.



We are VIPG and for us it's about 50/50.  For our larger family vacations - I typically book farther out and rarely get any discounts since even the Wyndham discounts usually aren't valid beyond 90 days out.  We pay 100% points value for these reservations - because we need at least a three bedroom and sometimes even a four bedroom unit.  For example, we've got a four bedroom booked for the week of Christmas at GG - it's really two two bedroom lockouts - but we need all four bedrooms for our holiday plans.  For our smaller long weekend trips - I always try to book in the 60 day VIP discount window - or using the Wyndham discounts - especially considering weekends are the most expensive on points.


----------



## troy12n

I'm VIPG right now, i've bought a few times and because I had different contracts with bonus points attached to them I was VIPP for a couple years, dropped to VIPG this year and will drop to Grandfathered Silver in October again because all those bonus contracts are expiring. Unless I PIC I will probably stay Silver because I have unlimited HK. I have historically done most of my "big" reservations outside the Express window. The reason in the past was kids, and planning around their school schedules, spring breaks, christmas, etc. We always go somewhere big for Spring Break, so thats 9-10 days in March, every other year we go to Maryland (NH or OTA) to visit my wife's family for Christmas. Occasional Thanksgiving somewhere, and a big summer vacation. Because we need to have (prefer) 2 BR or large units, and that's not always possible inside 60 days, I always book pretty far in advance. However, whenever possible, I would try to re-book inside of 60 days to get the discount if the room size we need happened to be available. When I was VIPP, that 50% discount was nice. We have also made a bunch of bookings under 60 days, whenever we have some time off and can get away. I just booked week in Pompano in August last week, had that kind of botched long weekend in Clearwater too a couple weeks ago. There's often something for us to find inside of 60 days. 

I have over 1 million points in 2022 UY which starts in October and I have already over half of that booked including a week at OTA, 9 days at La Belle Maison, a few days at Sapphire Valley, all of those 2BR or 2BR Deluxe and also looking to book Midtown 45 in April because of the promotion currently running. There's no way I could book a 2 BR for Christmas at OTA or anything contiguous at La Belle in a 2 BR at the 60 day mark...


----------



## dgalati

troy12n said:


> So is your long term strategy to hold this or use next year and dump it?


The only thing for sure is I will use all points for my personal travel. I have never rented any of the points I owned.


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> A megarenter who moves from using resale points at a 50% discount within 60-days to booking earlier, longer reservations will use up the resale points twice as fast and leaving 100% of the reservations within 60-days for other owners to book using the full points costs.


Finally some one understands that availability will be created by the elimination of this loophole.  Resale points will now use up to double the number of points if booked in the discount window.


----------



## dgalati

Sandi Bo said:


> I never hear anyone mention the discounts Wyndham seems to routinely offer. Those resale points may still enjoy discounts, some I have seen are pretty significant. Rarely do we hear about discounts non-VIP owners receive. Likely because Wyndham would rather not draw attention to that. How many reservations are truly booked at full points costs?


Here is the link from Wyndham login page. I think this discount to owners will be a little more common now and it also helps non VIP owners see the savings they could have if they purchase up to VIP. I personally would rather see a owner benefit from the discounted reservation over a VIP owner that rents the reservation.








						Owner Travel Deals
					

Check out the latest timeshare owner discounts, specials & offers on Club Wyndham resorts and save on your next family vacation! Enjoy your ownership and save!




					clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com


----------



## Sandi Bo

dgalati said:


> Here is the link from Wyndham login page. I think this discount to owners will be a little more common now and it also helps non VIP owners see the savings they could have if they purchase up to VIP. I personally would rather see a owner benefit from the discounted reservation over a VIP owner that rents the reservation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Owner Travel Deals
> 
> 
> Check out the latest timeshare owner discounts, specials & offers on Club Wyndham resorts and save on your next family vacation! Enjoy your ownership and save!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com


How does this show a non VIP owner the savings they could have if they purchase up to VIP, I don't see any correlation.

As a VIPF, I see it as something being given to non-VIPs that VIPs paid good money for. If Wyndham didn't offer these discounts, there would be more availability to VIP owners in the discount window (something advertised to us and that VIPs paid for).

I personally would rather see a VIP owner benefit by having rooms available at a discount to VIPs, as promised.


----------



## Ty1on

Sandi Bo said:


> How does this show a non VIP owner the savings they could have if they purchase up to VIP, I don't see any correlation.
> 
> As a VIPF, I see it as something being given to non-VIPs that VIPs paid good money for. If Wyndham didn't offer these discounts, there would be more availability to VIP owners in the discount window (something advertised to us and that VIPs paid for).
> 
> I personally would rather see a VIP owner benefit by having rooms available at a discount to VIPs, as promised.


These deals appear to be in the 30 day window.  If they let these nights that no one, not even a VIP at 50% from 60 to 30 days out, wants, they die on the vine and non VIPs are using their points for something you might actually have wanted.  You had the first shot at anything that hits Deals.


----------



## chapjim

Ty1on said:


> These deals appear to be in the 30 day window.  If they let these nights that no one, not even a VIP at 50% from 60 to 30 days out, wants, they die on the vine and non VIPs are using their points for something you might actually have wanted.  You had the first shot at anything that hits Deals.



The thing is, we don't know where the discounted nights/weeks came from.  They might have shown up in a search but they could be nights/weeks that fell out of the bottom of Extra Holidays.  The point is you can't say "not even a VIP , , , wants."  VIPs might never have seen them. 

I noticed on at least one of the specials that it only applied to studios.  That's pretty easy to understand since the lowest class of unit is what will be left after everyone has done their upgrades.


----------



## paxsarah

Sandi Bo said:


> As a VIPF, I see it as something being given to non-VIPs that VIPs paid good money for.


As a VIP, did you pay good money for deals that could range anywhere from 20-50%, at only a small minority of resorts, mostly in off seasons, sometimes only on weeknights or for certain unit sizes/types, and become available at unpredictable intervals? If yes, then yes, we totally stealing your deals from you.

But the way I see it, this is like a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy of what VIPs get. This is like the satirical LaCroix flavor I once saw called "hint of hint of lime." Non-VIP owner discounts are nothing like knowing any unit you are able to book inside 60 days at any resort will carry your level's discount and potentially an instant upgrade.


----------



## paxsarah

chapjim said:


> The thing is, we don't know where the discounted nights/weeks came from.


They are regular units in regular inventory. Are you suggesting there's some special discounted inventory from another source that feeds these non-VIP discounts? I'm almost 100% sure that's not the case.


----------



## HitchHiker71

The non-VIP discount programs are typically offered up when occupancy falls below a certain threshold during certain seasons.  Occupancy rates are tracked very closely by Wyndham - the historical occupany data and rolling averages are not hard to find if you know where to look.  I've found these datasets many times in the past when the need arose.


----------



## dgalati

paxsarah said:


> They are regular units in regular inventory. Are you suggesting there's some special discounted inventory from another source that feeds these non-VIP discounts? I'm almost 100% sure that's not the case.


Its just another VIP complaining about Wyndham leveling the playing field.  I get VIP owners paid to achieve status but the free ride is over on resale points. No one can say it was a benefit listed in the members  directory. Similar to cancel and rebook  that was sold as a benefit that never was.


----------



## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> The non-VIP discount programs are typically offered up when occupancy falls below a certain threshold during certain seasons.  Occupancy rates are tracked very closely by Wyndham - the historical occupany data and rolling averages are not hard to find if you know where to look.  I've found these datasets many times in the past when the need arose.


Its to fill rooms for owners reservation not as a rental so a owner can profit off of it.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Ty1on said:


> These deals appear to be in the 30 day window.  If they let these nights that no one, not even a VIP at 50% from 60 to 30 days out, wants, they die on the vine and non VIPs are using their points for something you might actually have wanted.  You had the first shot at anything that hits Deals.


Thank you for your thoughtful response. I might have been a bit tongue in cheek - along the vein of other people shouldn't book the rooms in case maybe I want them and don't have my plans firmed up yet.   But I do think it waters down the value of VIP if anything. If I were non-VIP it certainly wouldn't incentivize me to purchase VIP (not if I can get discounts without putting out the money).  Since my resale points will no longer enjoy the benefits of my VIP discounts, I will be thankful if I see discounts that I can use on my resale points. (There's that what about me angle ).


----------



## dgalati

chapjim said:


> The thing is, we don't know where the discounted nights/weeks came from.  They might have shown up in a search but they could be nights/weeks that fell out of the bottom of Extra Holidays.  The point is you can't say "not even a VIP , , , wants."  VIPs might never have seen them.
> 
> I noticed on at least one of the specials that it only applied to studios.  That's pretty easy to understand since the lowest class of unit is what will be left after everyone has done their upgrades.


Who cares where they came from? Bottom line its a benefit for owners to book available inventory at VIP discounts.  Wyndham does care to help fill rooms for owners use instead of letting VIP owners renting for a profit. The club was intended. For personal use and not for rentals.


----------



## Ty1on

Sandi Bo said:


> Thank you for your thoughtful response. I might have been a bit tongue in cheek - along the vein of other people shouldn't book the rooms in case maybe I want them and don't have my plans firmed up yet.  But I do think it waters down the value of VIP if anything. If I were non-VIP it certainly wouldn't incentivize me to purchase VIP (not if I can get discounts without putting out the money). Since my resale points will no longer enjoy the benefits of my VIP discounts, I will be thankful if I see discounts that I can use on my resale points. (There's that what about me angle ).


I knew you were lampooning.  I thought a very serious response appropriate.

but seriously, what's offered in Deals is mostly the August Indios of the Wyndham world.


----------



## am1

dgalati said:


> Finally some one understands that availability will be created by the elimination of this loophole.  Resale points will now use up to double the number of points if booked in the discount window.


Was Wyndham not paying for the discounts/upgrades for VIPs? (Possibly at subsidized rates) If so Wyndham will be using those points in other ways for them or be able to sell more points that they own/manage.


----------



## chapjim

paxsarah said:


> They are regular units in regular inventory. Are you suggesting there's some special discounted inventory from another source that feeds these non-VIP discounts? I'm almost 100% sure that's not the case.



No, not suggesting anything like that.  Special discounted inventory are your words, not mine.


----------



## dgalati

am1 said:


> Was Wyndham not paying for the discounts/upgrades for VIPs? (Possibly at subsidized rates) If so Wyndham will be using those points in other ways for them or be able to sell more points that they own/manage.


Now you have the big picture. Follow the money trail always!


----------



## paxsarah

chapjim said:


> No, not suggesting anything like that.  Special discounted inventory are your words, not mine.


 I apologize for misreading your meaning, then. I was just really confused about this part, then:


chapjim said:


> They might have shown up in a search but they could be nights/weeks that fell out of the bottom of Extra Holidays. The point is you can't say "not even a VIP , , , wants." VIPs might never have seen them.


How could VIPs have never seen them? I mean, unless they never looked for them, which I guess is their own problem. It's exactly the same inventory that every VIP has the opportunity to book. As a non-VIP, I certainly have no control over the fact that I might have stumbled across some availability in the one to two dozen resorts on limited special when a VIP hadn't done so (when they had access to discounted inventory at all of those one to two dozen resorts, plus every other resort in the Wyndham system).


----------



## chapjim

paxsarah said:


> I apologize for misreading your meaning, then. I was just really confused about this part, then:
> 
> How could VIPs have never seen them? I mean, unless they never looked for them, which I guess is their own problem. It's exactly the same inventory that every VIP has the opportunity to book. As a non-VIP, I certainly have no control over the fact that I might have stumbled across some availability in the one to two dozen resorts on limited special when a VIP hadn't done so (when they had access to discounted inventory at all of those one to two dozen resorts, plus every other resort in the Wyndham system).



I yield!  I thought I had a point.  I guess not.


----------



## cbyrne1174

dgalati said:


> @cbyrne1174 has mastered using the system for her travel needs. In the most cost effective way she travels and enjoys the discounts without a sunk cost of buying up to VIP. The only perk she can not receive unless she rents from a VIP is the free room upgrade. But then again I wouldn't be surprised if she received a free room upgrade at check-in a few times.



I get them at BC in the off season. Most of the rooms there are 2 bedrooms. I just have to usually ask if they have an extra one day of, which they usually do.


----------



## dgalati

cbyrne1174 said:


> I get them at BC in the off season. Most of the rooms there are 2 bedrooms. I just have to usually ask if they have an extra one day of, which they usually do.


I have found out it doesn't hurt to ask. It also helps to slip them a $20 to say thank you!


----------



## am1

dgalati said:


> I have found out it doesn't hurt to ask. It also helps to slip them a $20 to say thank you!


I could not even get a room downgrade sometimes to keep a guest in the same room.  Had to go another way about it to get the guest in the same room fit a split stay.  

Front desk workers should not be giving out upgrades to anyone unless it helps their inventory or no alternative.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> You really should stop posting about what you do not know, because you just keep exposing your complete lack of knowledge about how Club Wyndham works.



Which was the karma in the end?
[/QUOTE]
I that incident I took your position, ie cancel and rebook is not a benefit anyone paid for.


----------



## rickandcindy23




----------



## CO skier

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Then please educate me  / or at least explain how this is not one possible outcome.





T-Dot-Traveller said:


> BUT - it could also result in more unhappy NEW owners.
> let's hypothetically assume the majority of the points that will be dumped by "mega renters" filter back to Wyndham  AND all are resold
> [ie . not put permanently into Extra Holidays] . The result will be more owners chasing the same number of units in prime weeks.


The points dumped by megarenters were used in the 60-day booking window for the 50% VIP discount.  The new owners will book at full points costs, leaving 50% more availability somewhere in the *points* system.

The new owners will book for their family vacations (happy owners).  Existing owners will book the other half of the availability for their family vacations (more happy owners).


----------



## CO skier

CO skier said:


> Which was the karma in the end?





ronparise said:


> I that incident I took your position, ie cancel and rebook is not a benefit anyone paid for.


I was thinking along the line of, "Why was someone who was so "respected" on TUG barred from listing stripped Wyndham accounts in the TUG bargain basement and unceremoniously shown the exit door from Club Wyndham and blacklisted from ever owning Club Whyndham again?


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> I was thinking along the line of, "Why was someone who was so "respected" on TUG barred from listing stripped Wyndham accounts in the TUG bargain basement and unceremoniously shown the exit door from Club Wyndham and blacklisted from ever owning Club Whyndham again?


In retrospect Wyndham actually did @ronparise a favor. Especially considering the changes they implemented to eliminate rentals.


----------



## paxsarah

CO skier said:


> I was thinking along the line of, "Why was someone who was so "respected" on TUG barred from listing stripped Wyndham accounts in the TUG bargain basement



As I understand the story it must have been out of an overabundance of caution, since Ron was exceedingly forthright about the lack of available points on an otherwise very low-MF contract. There was nothing shady about it.



CO skier said:


> and unceremoniously shown the exit door from Club Wyndham and blacklisted from ever owning Club Whyndham again?


I’m sure there are a lot of reasons, not least of which being that in using Wyndham’s system exactly as they designed it, he cost them a crapton of money. He also explained to them exactly how he did it, which was to Wyndham’s benefit in later system changes.


----------



## rickandcindy23

CO skier said:


> I was thinking along the line of, "Why was someone who was so "respected" on TUG barred from listing stripped Wyndham accounts in the TUG bargain basement and unceremoniously shown the exit door from Club Wyndham and blacklisted from ever owning Club Whyndham again?


I didn't see anything about all of that.  What do you know that others do not know?


----------



## 55plus

rickandcindy23 said:


> I didn't see anything about all of that.  What do you know that others do not know?


It's spelled out in some previous threads. I don't recall how far back. Basically, what Ron did was make lemonade out of lemons, so to speak.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> It's spelled out in some previous threads. I don't recall how far back. Basically, what Ron did was make lemonade out of lemons, so to speak.


What Ron did was all within Wyndham rules at the time. He worked the system to his advantage just like the current VIP owners did using resale points with VIP discounts and benefits. Unfortunately all good things come to a end and the choice is to adapt and change strategy or throw on the towel and tap out. Ron had the advantage of Wyndham forcing his hand early on. With the changes that have come into play he would of been forced to exit eventually without any compensation.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

CO skier said:


> .........listing stripped Wyndham accounts in the TUG bargain basement





rickandcindy23 said:


> I didn't see anything about all of that.  What do you know that others do not know?





55plus said:


> It's spelled out in some previous threads. I don't recall how far back. Basically, what Ron did was make lemonade out of lemons, so to speak.



The listing was in the TUG - free timeshare sub - forum  ( 2014/ 15 era)
It was for a free Wyndham Canterbury / approx - 400 K points.

The catch ( which @ronparise  noted emphatically) was that you would have to pay MF for about 2 years before your (future year) points  would be available.

A TUG member grabbed  it & was quite happy .At the time the eBay bid prices for a similar fully point loaded Canterbury significantly exceeded  what the 2 year MF would be. Basically the new owner received a great  ownership with zero upfront cost & only monthly payments required once transferred by Wyndham. Sort of a no money down Xmas lay way plan TS.

What made this famous on TUG was the - " was it really free" postings that made it likely the longest giveaway thread in TUG history .

It was subsequently decided that to meet the requirement of the giveaway forum only costs such as transfer fees could be required of a "new owner"
and that usage had to commence  within certain parameters.

<I am sure moderator @DeniseM remembers it fondly>
.


----------



## dgalati

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> The listing was in the TUG - free timeshare sub - forum  ( 2014/ 15 era)
> It was for a free Wyndham Canterbury / approx - 400 K points.
> 
> The catch ( which @ronparise  noted emphatically) was that you would have to pay MF for about 2 years before your(future year) points  would be available.
> 
> A TUG member grabbed  it & was quite happy .At the time the eBay bid prices for a similar fully point loaded Canterbury significantly exceeded  what the 2 year MF would be. Basically the new owner received a great  ownership with zero upfront cost & only monthly payments required once transferred by Wyndham. Sort of a no money down Xmas lay way plan TS.
> 
> What made this famous on TUG was the - " was it really free" postings that made it likely the longest giveaway thread in TUG history .
> 
> It was subsequently decided that to meet the requirement of the giveaway forum only costs such as transfer fees could be required of a "new owner"
> and that usage had to commence  within certain parameters.
> 
> <I am sure moderator @DeniseM remembers it fondly>
> .


Free is free it two people agree to a purchase price of $0 and the owner assumes paying maintenance fees at time of transfer. Does anyone really care how much it costs for the burden of paying maintenance fees? Owners are paying them now and some can not use all their points.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

dgalati said:


> Free is free it two people agree to a purchase price of $0 and the owner assumes paying maintenance fees at time of transfer. Does anyone really care how much it costs for the burden of paying maintenance fees? Owners are paying them now and some can not use all their points.


Specific to the (free / give away)  sub- forum there are TUG  rules on what constitutes a giveaway. Those rules were further clarified after the Canterbury listing. The  transaction with the new owner was done via the giveaway sub-forum.

Postscript -
If you wish to "sell" a TS for a penny or more , with details listed on when future useage  starts  and when MF starts and the specifics do not qualify for the giveaway sub-forum ; there is also TUG Marketplace.
Within Marketplace you can find the $500 or less category.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> This just confirms your complete lack of knowledge of how the August changes to the VIP program will put more owners and fewer renters on vacation in Club Wyndham.




Do you really believe that


CO skier said:


> I was thinking along the line of, "Why was someone who was so "respected" on TUG barred from listing stripped Wyndham accounts in the TUG bargain basement and unceremoniously shown the exit door from Club Wyndham and blacklisted from ever owning  Club Wyndham again?



I thought that the contracts I listed on Tug were bargains. and so did the folks that "bought"  them. (I put bought in quotes because the price was $0)  I only put the ones that were really good deals on Tug.. I had a buyer for everything.  But I thought Id  pull the good stuff out and give them to folks on TUG. Unfortunately some on TUG couldnt understand the deal,  and complained 


 Wyndham froze my accounts  along with a number of other owners, including some still here in TUG. In my case they said that they were doing an audit, which they never did. I met with some orf their folks, showed them what I was doing and answered all their questions (honestly) .. A couple of days later I got a settlement offer. ... If I signed everything back to Wyndham they wouldnt sue me

My response was..."you guys can do anything you want, but Im not going to make it easy"... "Sue me!"  a couple of days later , this time in writing. they said that i should take their generous offer, but if I wanted to make a counter offer I could... Before I could put pen to paper, I  got a call from their lawyer, offering to buy everything I owned.  their first offer was $0, .. I asked for $We settled  somewhere in the middle.    I believe that if they thought they could win the lawsuit they threatened, they wouldnt have paid me anything...


----------



## CO skier

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> The listing was in the TUG - free timeshare sub - forum  ( 2014/ 15 era)
> It was for a free Wyndham Canterbury / approx - 400 K points.


Wrong, again.  It involved "29 small Wyndham points contracts ranging in size from 49000 to 154000 points deeded at various resorts."  2-3 future years of points were stripped from the contracts, but the new owner would have to pay the maintenance fees on those points without receiving those points.  There were a very few "good deals" salted-in.

The whole discussion is probably buried somewhere in the past TUG bargain basement forum threads.

Fortunately, no TUG member fell for any of the crappy deals before Wyndham stripped-contracts were barred from the TUG Bargain Basement forum.  They were definitely _not_ a "smoking good deal."

As I recall, the TUG Bargain Basement rules were updated in 2016 to address the problem.

"-You may not ask the new owner to pay the maintenance fee for a usage year that you are going to keep.

-If you want to "sell" your timeshare, please use the TUG Marketplace, instead."

And now, due to the changes to the Credit Pool by Wyndham about 2016, Wyndham contracts with multiple years stripped of points are no longer possible.


----------



## CO skier

rickandcindy23 said:


> I didn't see anything about all of that.  What do you know that others do not know?


You must not have been following Wyndham forum TUG posts in 2016.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> The points dumped by megarenters were used in the 60-day booking window for the 50% VIP discount.  The new owners will book at full points costs, leaving 50% more availability somewhere in the *points* system.
> 
> The new owners will book for their family vacations (happy owners).  Existing owners will book the other half of the availability for their family vacations (more happy owners).


I was a happy owner


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> I was a happy owner


Emphasis on the "was."  And now, nevermore.  Club Wyndham is, in some small way, better for it.


----------



## CO skier

paxsarah said:


> As I understand the story it must have been out of an overabundance of caution, since Ron was exceedingly forthright about the lack of available points on an otherwise very low-MF contract. There was nothing shady about it.
> 
> 
> I’m sure there are a lot of reasons, not least of which being that in using Wyndham’s system exactly as they designed it, he cost them a crapton of money. He also explained to them exactly how he did it, which was to Wyndham’s benefit in later system changes.


He screwed-over a crapton of owners who would otherwise have reserved those reservations.  Megarenters did and do the same.

The changes in 2016, 2020, and 2021 make it more difficult for megarenters to screw other owners out of their vacations.  That leads to more availability for owners to reserve a vacation for their family instead of non-owners vacationing in Club Wyndham.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Wrong, again.  It involved "29 small Wyndham points contracts ranging in size from 49000 to 154000 points deeded at various resorts."  2-3 future years of points were stripped from the contracts, but the new owner would have to pay the maintenance fees on those points without receiving those points.  There were a very few "good deals" salted-in.
> 
> The whole discussion is probably buried somewhere in the past TUG bargain basement forum threads.
> 
> Fortunately, no TUG member fell for any of the crappy deals before Wyndham stripped-contracts were barred from the TUG Bargain Basement forum.  They were definitely _not_ a "smoking good deal."
> 
> As I recall, the TUG Bargain Basement rules were updated in 2016 to address the problem.
> 
> "-You may not ask the new owner to pay the maintenance fee for a usage year that you are going to keep.
> 
> -If you want to "sell" your timeshare, please use the TUG Marketplace, instead."
> 
> And now, due to the changes to the Credit Pool by Wyndham about 2016, Wyndham contracts with multiple years stripped of points are no longer possible.



You are also wrong...Or you are both right. 









						Wyndham points contracts
					

I have two Wyndham points contracts that i would like to give away.   1) Great Smokey Lodge  1,001,000  points, Oct use year, mf $5.01/1000 2) Canterbury                  500,000 points,   April use year, mf  $4/1000  I will pay all costs of closing and transfer fees  Because of the mf, these...




					tugbbs.com
				












						"FREE"  Wyndham points contracts
					

I have 29 small Wyndham points contracts  ranging in size from 49000 to 154000 points  deeded at various resorts that I am giving away to anyone willing to pay the closing and transfer fees  But there is a catch. These contracts have been stripped of points.   All the 2015, 2016 and 2017 points...




					tugbbs.com
				




The only problem was the word  "Bargain" ,  As they say, One Man's trash is another mans treasure"
And "free" is not always a bargain..


----------



## CO skier

ronparise said:


> And "free" is not always a bargain..


Which is what TUG eventually acknowledged.  A "free" timeshare where the new owner had to pay 2-3 years of maintenance fees for points they would never receive was definitely no bargain.  So these con-jobs were barred from the Bargain Deals forum.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> He screwed-over a crapton of owners who would otherwise have reserved those reservations.  Megarenters did and do the same.
> 
> The changes in 2016, 2020, and 2021 make it more difficult for megarenters to screw other owners out of their vacations.  That leads to more availability for owners to reserve a vacation for their family instead of non-owners vacationing in Club Wyndham.



I still dont understand why you think I screwed other owners out of their vacations, Using your logic I could say that every time you make a reservation you have screwed someone out of that vacation

And there is a finite number of units in the Wyndham system, and enough points have been sold to reserve everyone of them. Getting the big owners out of the game does not create more availability,  Its always the same number of points chasing the same number of reservations


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Which is what TUG eventually acknowledged.  A "free" timeshare where the new owner had to pay 2-3 years of maintenance fees for points they would never receive was definitely no bargain.  So these con-jobs were barred from the Bargain Deals forum.





Lets all take a logic test

All boys in my school have to wear long pants
Mary Jane is wearing long pants
Therefore Mary Jane must be a boy

True? or False?


All  Tug bargain timeshares  must be free
A mud week  at a ski resort is free
Therefore the mud week is a bargain

True or False


I get it My offers were not free,  but they might have been bargains


----------



## paxsarah

CO skier said:


> con-jobs


Man, you’re totally right he completely concealed the nature of these stripped contracts from the unsuspecting Tug public just to get one over on people, like a true con artist.

oh, wait…


ronparise said:


> As I said in my post..theres a catch, and its bad, but its not as bad as it seems.
> but I understand that this is a case where free may be too expensive, except for the guy with a special need that one of my contracts will satisfy.
> 
> Your point is well taken. there is a cost that anyone considering one of these has to be aware of


Yeah, forget that. Seems like he was fully forthright about the limitations. I can see how one could quibble about whether they’re truly “bargain deals,” but I don’t see how it can in any way be read as a con. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it a con.


----------



## Roger830

ronparise said:


> Lets all take a logic test
> 
> All boys in my school have to wear long pants
> Mary Jane is wearing long pants
> Therefore Mary Jane must be a boy
> 
> True? or False?
> 
> 
> All  Tug bargain timeshares  must be free
> A mud week  at a ski resort is free
> Therefore the mud week is a bargain
> 
> True or False
> 
> 
> I get it My offers were not free,  but they might have been bargains



For the first one *to be* *true* the first premise should  be - *Only* boys in my school wear long pants

For the second one to be logically true the first premise should be - All* free* timeshares are *listed* in Tug bargain timeshares
Even though it's logically true, it's not true because the premise is false.


----------



## dgalati

bpellis said:


> Assuming any reservations you make for the buyers at $3/1000 would also include any VIP discounts?


I like this guys thinking but I would of also demanded the free room upgrade if available.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I remember those threads now.  I did look at them but didn't comment.  I knew I wasn't interested in more points, and that is why I didn't say a thing.  I had nothing against what he was doing, or I would have remembered all of that.  Ron's explanation is more than adequate, but people still want to attack him. 

What someone does with knowledge is up to them.  I shared a tiny bit of what I knew back then.  Hey, I think it would still work, except for the fact that Wyndham has enough Bali Hai that they probably aren't converting anymore.  I could be wrong, but it seems they stopped allowing it.  Someone told me it was no longer possible.  I owned my weeks when they were PAHIO weeks.  I loved Bali Hai and Shearwater for personal use and bought for that reason.  I didn't buy to convert to Wyndham.  It fell into our laps. 

As long as those who took the contracts knew the rules upfront, these did belong in the bargain basement section of TUG, in my opinion.  The one thing I have to say is that I could not have done that myself because I couldn't have taken the heat that Ron took.   

There are many TUG members and guests who have businesses renting timeshares, I guess any system you own, you will have competition with some of them in getting reservations you want.  As I said, the early bird gets the worm.  The bitterness over VIP owners and their benefits is something other than "I cannot get a reservation that I want because those VIP owners took all of the inventory for the next 60 days!."  That doesn't hold water.  It was there for me, it was there for you.  You just didn't get the discounted points.  Determination and tenacity always wins the race. 

Admittedly, resale points shouldn't get the VIP Platinum benefits and Wyndham is fixing it.  Good for them for looking out for owners, just let me out of my resale contracts, Wyndham.  Let me give back all of these contracts and I will keep the Platinum for our grown kids and for us to use.  I will use what I bought.   Giving away these contracts with no idea what the use will be next year, I will be in a position similar to Ron in 2016, or whenever it was.  I will be giving away contracts that might be empty because I don't know where I stand on each individual one.  Some points were borrowed from future years.


----------



## Jan M.

rickandcindy23 said:


> Giving away these contracts with no idea what the use will be next year, I will be in a position similar to Ron in 2016, or whenever it was.  I will be giving away contracts that might be empty because I don't know where I stand on each individual one.  Some points were borrowed from future years.



Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Wyndham no longer allows deeds/contracts to be transferred if the full points aren't available. If you don't have the current use year points available you will have to pay $12 per thousand points to replace the points for any deed/contract you give away or sell. Dgalati was one of the individuals responsible for Wyndham making that change. That was his loophole and he was able to use it up until about two years ago. 

However you only have to have the next use year points available for anything you give back through Certified Exit. Something to keep in mind is that once you begin the CE process you cannot have any upcoming reservations and your account will be locked for however many months it takes until it's done. While your account is locked I'm guessing that Wyndham won't transfer any deeds/contacts you've sold or given away to other owners during the that time.


----------



## Cyrus24

Jan M. said:


> Something to keep in mind is that once you begin the CE process you cannot have any upcoming reservations and your account will be locked for however many months it takes until it's done.


Once they have the 'buckets' all set, it would seem that they would only need to 'lock' the resale buckets.  I'm leaning toward giving my one and only Resale Contract back.  Does not seem right to lock down the Developer side of the Account.

Appreciate the update, hopefully there is some adjustment to the locking process once the buckets roll out.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Jan M. said:


> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
> 
> Wyndham no longer allows deeds/contracts to be transferred if the full points aren't available. If you don't have the current use year points available you will have to pay $12 per thousand points to replace the points for any deed/contract you give away or sell. Dgalati was one of the individuals responsible for Wyndham making that change. That was his loophole and he was able to use it up until about two years ago.
> 
> However you only have to have the next use year points available for anything you give back through Certified Exit. Something to keep in mind is that once you begin the CE process you cannot have any upcoming reservations and your account will be locked for however many months it takes until it's done. While your account is locked I'm guessing that Wyndham won't transfer any deeds/contacts you've sold or given away to other owners during the that time.


My account is not really locked.  Why do you think that my account is locked?  Certified exit apparently doesn't work for every Wyndham contract.  They don't really want what I have.  I am also not going to give back my platinum account.  I know they want it, but they cannot have it.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Jan M. said:


> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
> 
> Wyndham no longer allows deeds/contracts to be transferred if the full points aren't available. If you don't have the current use year points available you will have to pay $12 per thousand points to replace the points for any deed/contract you give away or sell. Dgalati was one of the individuals responsible for Wyndham making that change. That was his loophole and he was able to use it up until about two years ago.
> 
> However you only have to have the next use year points available for anything you give back through Certified Exit. Something to keep in mind is that once you begin the CE process you cannot have any upcoming reservations and your account will be locked for however many months it takes until it's done. While your account is locked I'm guessing that Wyndham won't transfer any deeds/contacts you've sold or given away to other owners during the that time.


I am thinking about this change in policy on Wyndham's part.  If I don't have points for this year and have the title turned over to start on 2022, I don't see how they can legally keep me from doing that, as long as I have 2022 points for the new person taking over my account.  So that makes zero sense to me.  

Wyndham is going to make this tough on me.  Giving them away is one thing, but abiding by their stinkin' rules is another.


----------



## troy12n

rickandcindy23 said:


> Wyndham is going to make this tough on me.  Giving them away is one thing, but abiding by their stinkin' rules is another.



You really think being able to harvest points from a future use year, which you have not paid MF on, for your own (business) purposes and then dump them to someone else should be a permissible thing?


----------



## rickandcindy23

troy12n said:


> You really think being able to harvest points from a future use year, which you have not paid MF on, for your own (business) purposes and then dump them to someone else should be a permissible thing?


I wouldn't do that.  You need some reading comprehension skills, apparently.  They would be deeded and the ability to use for 2022.  Why are you so confrontational?  What makes you that way?  You need to calm down a bit.


----------



## dgalati

Jan M. said:


> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
> 
> Wyndham no longer allows deeds/contracts to be transferred if the full points aren't available. If you don't have the current use year points available you will have to pay $12 per thousand points to replace the points for any deed/contract you give away or sell. Dgalati was one of the individuals responsible for Wyndham making that change. That was his loophole and he was able to use it up until about two years ago.
> 
> However you only have to have the next use year points available for anything you give back through Certified Exit. Something to keep in mind is that once you begin the CE process you cannot have any upcoming reservations and your account will be locked for however many months it takes until it's done. While your account is locked I'm guessing that Wyndham won't transfer any deeds/contacts you've sold or given away to other owners during the that time.


I agree to disagree on it being a loophole and do not believe they made the change solely because of my usage. I personally think it was a glitch in the new system when it was rolled out in 2016. Wyndham created one bucket for all points and you could not take points from one deed or another. When transferring out a deed with no current use year points under the new system Wyndham told me all points transferred to new owner if available or not. This created a negative points balance which zeroed out the first couple of years but by 2019 they decided to charge $12/1000 for the negative balance. I am still not sure why they just didn't block the transfer like if you would use future use year points?  Disclaimer: I used all points personally and never rented a point I owned. As i used points from each deed I would sell deed without any current use year points. All of this was within club rules. Using current use year points was also allowed if you gave back deed to Wyndham with Ovations. Luckily Wyndham shut my way of traveling down in 2019 and saved me from the expense of paying 6k of maintenance fees during the COVID lock down.


----------



## rickandcindy23

So the ebay ads that Yvonne is selling that say something about any points for the current use year are a bonus actually is something she should not be transferring this year?  She is saying fees start next year, not this year.


----------



## scootr5

_If _(and that's a big if) Wyndham somehow managed to get them transferred before the end of 2021, Wyndham has been giving the new owner all points for the current use year regardless of whether they have been used or not; they are then taking the corresponding amount of points from the seller's remaining contract(s) (or making them pay $12 per thousand for them). Maintenance fees for the new owner start immediately once the contract is transferred.


----------



## dgalati

rickandcindy23 said:


> I am thinking about this change in policy on Wyndham's part.  If I don't have points for this year and have the title turned over to start on 2022, I don't see how they can legally keep me from doing that, as long as I have 2022 points for the new person taking over my account.  So that makes zero sense to me.
> 
> Wyndham is going to make this tough on me.  Giving them away is one thing, but abiding by their stinkin' rules is another.


Wyndham will transfer deeds out but if you have 0 points available a negative balance will be created. They told me all points transfer to new owner if they are available or not. The ownership letter clearly states points that will transfer depends on sellers points availability and benefits used at time contract is transferred.


----------



## rickandcindy23

scootr5 said:


> _If _(and that's a big if) Wyndham somehow managed to get them transferred before the end of 2021, Wyndham has been giving the new owner all points for the current use year regardless of whether they have been used or not; they are then taking the corresponding amount of points from the seller's remaining contract(s) (or making them pay $12 per thousand for them). Maintenance fees for the new owner start immediately once the contract is transferred.


OMG! That is so wrong, if the contract between the buyer and seller says usage and fees start in 2022.  That is creepy of Wyndham.


----------



## Ty1on

Deleted because I appear to have been wrong


----------



## tschwa2

You would think if the current owner pre paid all of the current years MF's they could transfer the contract with 0 points or if the transfer is initiated in the last 3-4 months of the use year since the new owner would not have time to use any points once transferred.  This would be a common sense approach but Developers aren't always guilty of having common sense.


----------



## Jan M.

rickandcindy23 said:


> My account is not really locked.  Why do you think that my account is locked?  Certified exit apparently doesn't work for every Wyndham contract.  They don't really want what I have.  I am also not going to give back my platinum account.  I know they want it, but they cannot have it.



I don't think your account is locked! 

Anyone who goes through Certified Exit has their account locked until it's finished. They cannot have any upcoming reservations nor can they make any new reservations. 

If an owner has deposited points in RCI and already has something booked those reservations won't be cancelled when they're going through the Certified Exit process. This probably isn't relevant to you because it sounds like you may need all your points to be able to sell or give away what you have. I'm including it because it might be helpful to OP considering using Certified Exit.


----------



## rickandcindy23

tschwa2 said:


> You would think if the current owner pre paid all of the current years MF's they could transfer the contract with 0 points or if the transfer is initiated in the last 3-4 months of the use year since the new owner would not have time to use any points once transferred.  This would be a common sense approach but Developers aren't always guilty of having common sense.


Very true.  Wyndham is the bottom of the barrel for common sense, apparently.  I am trying to figure out how to give away my Wyndham resale contracts (that were not free in 2007), so I need to figure out how to get out gracefully.  I guess I won't start the transfer process until 1/1.  I will do it all in my own good time.  Seems that even giving away to friends can hit these roadblocks of requiring MF's up to date and contract fully loaded at closing.  I may have to wait a long time to transfer.  I just don't know where I stand with points.  After the audit, it could be expensive to give these away, if I don't wait.


----------



## tschwa2

Jan M. said:


> I don't think your account is locked!
> 
> Anyone who goes through Certified Exit has their account locked until it's finished. They cannot have any upcoming reservations nor can they make any new reservations.
> 
> If an owner has deposited points in RCI and already has something booked those reservations won't be cancelled when they're going through the Certified Exit process. This probably isn't relevant to you because it sounds like you may need all your points to be able to sell or give away what you have. I'm including it because it might be helpful to OP considering using Certified Exit.


isn't that only if you are giving all of you points back and/or are using limited editions?  If you give back one contract and keep at least one, do they really cut off all access to your wyndham account and rci account.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Jan M. said:


> I don't think your account is locked!
> 
> Anyone who goes through Certified Exit has their account locked until it's finished. They cannot have any upcoming reservations nor can they make any new reservations.
> 
> If an owner has deposited points in RCI and already has something booked those reservations won't be cancelled when they're going through the Certified Exit process. This probably isn't relevant to you because it sounds like you may need all your points to be able to sell or give away what you have. I'm including it because it might be helpful to OP considering using Certified Exit.


I am not going to give back my Bali Hai, and that is all I own that they might even want.  I have Smoky Mountains, Kingsgate and Fairfield Bay and a few others.  Wyndham won't want those back. 

I have a friend who is considering taking some of my contracts.  I always thought my Fairfield Bay were the cheapest MF's but I did the math yesterday on some others, and Kingsgate might be a better choice for her.  But honestly, I am going to tell her to go a different way than Wyndham.  I don't want her to have to deal with all of these restrictions on Wyndham that would keep her from using her ownership, and besides that, if she has friends and family going, I have a feeling she will be stopped from doing that, if not now, maybe later. 

Other systems are better for her.  I always thought SBP or SDO would be much better for her family, even with the II fees and the upgrades to the 2 bedrooms, she would be much better off using II.


----------



## Jan M.

rickandcindy23 said:


> I am thinking about this change in policy on Wyndham's part.  If I don't have points for this year and have the title turned over to start on 2022, I don't see how they can legally keep me from doing that, as long as I have 2022 points for the new person taking over my account.  So that makes zero sense to me.
> 
> Wyndham is going to make this tough on me.  Giving them away is one thing, but abiding by their stinkin' rules is another.



For anything that has a January 1 use year if you wait until say later October to sell/give away them they shouldn't transfer until after the first of the year. So as long as you have enough points for 2022 to cover whatever your selling/giving away you should be good. But that puts you on the hook for the maintenance fees for the rest of 2021 and probably for the first month or two of 2022.

For the people weighing the pros and cons for selling/giving away things vs doing Certified Exit it's not easy to decide what to do. If you try to do a mix of both there's even more things to take into consideration.

We have a couple of things I said I'd get rid of last year. However we were gone so much from mid June through mid December we weren't home enough for me to do it. We've continued to travel most of this year too. Plus we used a lot of those points so now I'm trying to figure out what I want to do because of the upcoming changes. I'm so kicking myself for for procrastinating.


----------



## Jan M.

tschwa2 said:


> isn't that only if you are giving all of you points back and/or are using limited editions?  If you give back one contract and keep at least one, do they really cut off all access to your wyndham account and rci account.



No it's if you're using Certified Exit period.  If you've deposited points in RCI and made reservations those stays are still good. If I was contemplating using CE and had enough points to work with I'd deposit them in RCI and get stays booked if I didn't want to be stuck staying home for potentially 5-6 months. 

DH is dying laughing at the idea of me being forced to say home that long. It's been at least 15 years since I've gone that long between stays. I didn't go back to work when we moved to Florida ten years ago but even when I was working we took four big vacations a year.


----------



## Cyrus24

Jan M. said:


> I'm so kicking myself for for procrastinating.


Not worth that.  Who knew that Wyndham would clamp down on and/or change the rules.


----------



## Jan M.

Cyrus24 said:


> Not worth that.  Who knew that Wyndham would clamp down on and/or change the rules.



I've been sure this was coming. I just thought we had another year or so before it happened.


----------



## troy12n

Cyrus24 said:


> Not worth that.  Who knew that Wyndham would clamp down on and/or change the rules.



Honestly, if you didn't know this was coming, you were just blind to it or in denial. Did it come sooner than people may have thought? Maybe. But to others, this was long overdue. It will have a positive effect on owners who actually use their points to vacation, and not supplement their income.


----------



## Eric B

troy12n said:


> Honestly, if you didn't know this was coming, you were just blind to it or in denial. Did it come sooner than people may have thought? Maybe. But to others, this was long overdue. It will have a positive effect on owners who actually use their points to vacation, and not supplement their income.



Be careful about making absolute statements regarding what the effects will be.  We've already seen one posting from a hybrid VIP owner indicating that they would likely pull a desirable converted resale week at a desirable resort out of Club Wyndham Plus due to the removal of the VIP benefits.  If more such owners figure that out, there will be fewer of the desirable weeks and more mud weeks available for the owners - if that's the positive effect that everyone really wants then so be it, but I'm not entirely convinced that losing the possibility of access to those weeks is a positive effect.


----------



## paxsarah

Jan M. said:


> No it's if you're using Certified Exit period.


This wasn’t the case when I used Ovation in 2019, but maybe they’ve changed it since then. The language on the documentation they provided me was geared to the situation in which all contracts were given back and all reservations would be canceled - it was pretty dire. However, the conversation I had with the Ovation specialist when I started the process and my experience throughout was that as long as I had enough free points remaining in my account to cover the contracts that were leaving, my reservations were safe. I had preexisting reservations and even made one as the process ensued - nothing was locked. In fact, I was on a trip at the third of four Wyndham properties when my first Ovated contract left my account.

So again, YMMV. This was two years ago, and things could have changed. But all I can say is the documentation made it sound like nothing could be done during the process, while in reality I just had to cover the points.


----------



## am1

troy12n said:


> You really think being able to harvest points from a future use year, which you have not paid MF on, for your own (business) purposes and then dump them to someone else should be a permissible thing?



I agree as it destabilizes the owners.  A new owner with no points for a few years is more likely to default or the transfer was set up to default from the beginning. Not scam or a fraud but I was surprised people would take that "bargain" offer.  

When I broke in to the business.  I would get the previous owner to transfer the points to people who would pay be $6.50 or so a thousand.  For as many of the years that was possible.  That more then covered the purchase cost. Then with the new money made more purchases.  That is now I funded my company and at the time thought was my end game in all this.  Back then fees with $3 something a 1000.  Had a free gold membership (no retail) for my account for a cup of coffee and then that was taken away and I went out and made a purchase that got me to Platinum with bonus points and Pics.  Then I was the one that was paying for points transfers as I could not keep up fast enough in purchasing timeshares.  Then Wyndham started giving me free points in a few ways and while what Ron was doing was impressive I had no need for the headache.  At times I must have had hundreds of millions of points in my accounts where ownership only showed a few million deeded points and no Platinum purchased points although I was Platinum.  But still went after every discount and upgrade I could.


----------



## Jan M.

paxsarah said:


> This wasn’t the case when I used Ovation in 2019, but maybe they’ve changed it since then. The language on the documentation they provided me was geared to the situation in which all contracts were given back and all reservations would be canceled - it was pretty dire. However, the conversation I had with the Ovation specialist when I started the process and my experience throughout was that as long as I had enough free points remaining in my account to cover the contracts that were leaving, my reservations were safe. I had preexisting reservations and even made one as the process ensued - nothing was locked. In fact, I was on a trip at the third of four Wyndham properties when my first Ovated contract left my account.
> 
> So again, YMMV. This was two years ago, and things could have changed. But all I can say is the documentation made it sound like nothing could be done during the process, while in reality I just had to cover the points.



Things have definitely changed with Certified Exit. once they begin the process if you haven't cancelled any upcoming reservations yourself CE will cancel them for you and you will lose the points. 

I kind of but not entirely misspoke when I said previously that your account would be locked. If you make any new reservations during the process it may result in your CE process being cancelled. It seems that you do have access to your account, you just can't book anything.


----------



## paxsarah

Jan M. said:


> once they begin the process if you haven't cancelled any upcoming reservations yourself CE will cancel them for you and *you will lose the points.*


Even if they do cancel the reservations, why would you lose the points (assuming more than 15 days out)?


----------



## Jan M.

paxsarah said:


> Even if they do cancel the reservations, why would you lose the points (assuming more than 15 days out)?



The bigger question would be why would anyone be foolish enough not to cancel any upcoming reservations and lose their points when it's spelled out in the terms and conditions you agree to when you commit to using Certified Exit. Yes, it is in the terms and conditions. 

Same thing with why would anyone take a chance of having the process cancelled if they made new reservations while the process was in progress.


----------



## paxsarah

Jan M. said:


> Yes, it is in the terms and conditions.


Yes, it was in my terms and conditions too. I would assume they carried the same language over from Ovation. No, they didn’t actually do it in my case. That’s why I was asking if they really do it, or if it’s the same as when I went through. It sounds like you have firsthand experience of this, so they must have started following through on the written terms and conditions in a way that they didn’t when I did it in 2019.

And the reason anyone would be foolish enough to go forward with reservations still booked is if their specialist told them by email it would be okay as long as they had the points in their account to cover the contracts that were leaving. It’s me; I’m anyone. And it worked out fine. I’m not saying it will work out fine for anyone today, I’m saying that what they said initially in writing was different than what I was told in a follow up email by my specialist (that I just needed to have enough points free), and my experience reflected his assurances.


----------



## dgalati

Ovation letter I recieved in 2019 when I was going to give back deeds. Fortunately I did not own for one year and Wyndham ended up buying all 4 deeds third party from their preferred resale broker. Wynd3 actually accepted the  first two but I notified them I did not own for 1 year. I still believe they would of taken back if I didn't disclose that I only owned for 3 months.




This email is to recap that you are voluntarily agreeing to participate in the Ovation by Wyndham program and understand and agree to the following requirements as we discussed today.

Maintenance Fee: Must be and stay current until process is complete. Any paid fees are not refundable.

Documentation to return inventory: You understand that you will receive by email/mail documentation to return your inventory within 8-10 weeks. These documents must be signed, notarized, and returned within the number of days indicated on the documentation. Please keep in mind the sooner the documentation is returned the earlier the process may be completed. Once the document is received, it may take within 6-8 weeks for documents to be approved and the cancellation to be completed.

Third Party Company Assistance: You understand that retaining counsel or third party company to assist with the Ovation program may disqualify your application.

Title Issues: Discrepancies with owner recorded transfer deeds, issues with chain of title, missing documentation needed to record with deed to return inventory, proof of name changes, estate matters etc. and other changes that were not received by Wyndham Title department, may delay the process until proper documentation is received.

Ownership: You must own contract for at least 12 months

Third Party Financial Institution: Any portion of loan paid using a credit card or any other financial institution (PayPal, bank loan, mortgage equity or other) is of sole responsibility of owner accepting an Ovation option.

Reservations: All reservations will be canceled and points forfeited. You will be able to keep any secured reservation paid with Resort Condominium International (RCI).

New Travel reservations during Ovation process: In the event that you book a reservation during this process your request to return your inventory may be cancelled. In case you use your points/credits with Wyndham Destinations or one of its business partners (Travel, RCI, and others) during the process, your cancelation may be interrupted and you will have to wait until the next use year to participate in the Ovation program, once all points are available.

Point’s/Credit usage: Future year’s points/credits must be unused or reservation must be canceled or point rental option is also available.

Multiple contracts: One acknowledgement per contract is required and must be returned.

Ovation by Wyndham offer: Program and inventory acceptance may change without notice. Any changes in the program, will not impact a case that is in process.


----------



## paxsarah

My terms were very similar but not exactly the same as what dgalati posted. The part about reservations is verbatim.


----------



## dgalati

[/QUOTE]





paxsarah said:


> My terms were very similar but not exactly the same as what dgalati posted. The part about reservations is verbatim.


Its a moving target and the best policy is to call in and see if anything has changed. Wyndham has no set rules made for our eyes. This is so they can change as demand and economic situations change.


----------



## Cyrus24

dgalati said:


> I agree to disagree on it being a loophole and do not believe they made the change solely because of my usage. I personally think it was a glitch in the new system when it was rolled out in 2016.


Is there a difference between a loophole and a glitch?  Asking for a friend.


----------



## Jan M.

I know several people who are using Certified Exit. They were kind enough to share information with me to help me come to a decision about what I want to do.

Some things in the terms and conditions under Ovations are the same for Certified Exit but not all.

One thing I noticed right away are the timeframes. What was then 8-10 weeks and 6-8 weeks for the two steps of the process under Ovations is currently 9-12 weeks and 8-10 weeks with Certified Exit. I'd guess that's due to the increased work load this change is bringing.


----------



## CO skier

55plus said:


> This person may also be a mega renter getting out of the business. Finish up renting and sell in the process. This is a current list of rentals and contracts for sale:
> 
> Items for sale by time-4-vacation | eBay





Jan M. said:


> One thing I noticed right away are the timeframes. What was then 8-10 weeks and 6-8 weeks for the two steps of the process under Ovations is currently 9-12 weeks and 8-10 weeks with Certified Exit. I'd guess that's due to the increased work load this change is bringing.


If any of this is the result of megarenters proactively dropping their resale contracts, even before the changes in mid-August, it is a clear indication these changes have some teeth.


----------



## chapjim

troy12n said:


> You really think being able to harvest points from a future use year, which you have not paid MF on, for your own (business) purposes and then dump them to someone else should be a permissible thing?



It's all about a willing buyer and a willing seller.  You are neither.  You are a bystander with no standing to criticize what others do or did.

You are also really annoying.


----------



## CO skier

paxsarah said:


> Man, you’re totally right he completely concealed the nature of these stripped contracts from the unsuspecting Tug public just to get one over on people, like a true con artist.
> 
> oh, wait…
> 
> Yeah, forget that. Seems like he was fully forthright about the limitations. I can see how one could quibble about whether they’re truly “bargain deals,” but I don’t see how it can in any way be read as a con. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it a con.


There was universal agreement in the posts back in 2016 that there was nothing wrong with posting the stripped contracts in the TUG Marketplace where anything goes and anyone can ask anything for a crappy timeshare, even one stripped of some years of future usage.  I believe this is still true.

The "con" was trying to pass-off the stripped contracts as a "Smoking deal" which is the criterion for a TUG Bargain Deal.  To avoid any TUG member getting conned by a timeshare stripped of any future years of usage (regardless of "disclosures"), the Bargain Basement rules were updated in 2016 to prohibit ads with future years stripped of usage without the MF having been paid.


----------



## CO skier

chapjim said:


> It's all about a willing buyer and a willing seller.


I am not an attorney, but I know there is _a lot_ more to it than that.  Disclosure, to name only one.


----------



## troy12n

chapjim said:


> It's all about a willing buyer and a willing seller.  You are neither.  You are a bystander with no standing to criticize what others do or did.
> 
> You are also really annoying.



I'm an affected owner just like the rest of you who have been pi$$ed for a while about the rampant abuse by mega renters and am glad Wyndham is doing something about this finally.

It's very telling how a handful of owners seemingly have no idea what they own in terms of MF right now. A lot of this is coming out in the wash right now in the forums. I guess that really didn't matter when the points were used to churn personal income. But when the music stopped and they are holding the bag of millions of points they now can't use, I guess it's a wake up call to them and a frantic dash to dump points.

I do feel sympathy for owners who bought some extra points for pesonal and family and were used to leveraging their VIP privileges onto those points. It sucks for them. I was considering buying some for the same purposes. I still might. But in the ~150k-250k range, not millions. But they, just like I, know who to blame... some of the more vocal people in this very thread.

So i'm entitled to my opinion just as much as anyone else. You can put me on ignore if you think i'm annoying.


----------



## paxsarah

CO skier said:


> The "con" was trying to pass-off the stripped contracts as a "Smoking deal" which is the criterion for a TUG Bargain Deal.



That’s…an interesting definition of con. He wasn’t hiding anything, he wasn’t lying about anything, he worked to make sure people understood the severe limitations of what he was offering. But it was posted in the wrong location, and so it’s a “con.”

Sometimes you have valid points, and even when I disagree, you have a distinct perspective that adds to the discussion, but too often vitriol gets in the way. Calling it a “con” is just more vitriol.


----------



## CO skier

paxsarah said:


> That’s…an interesting definition of con. He wasn’t hiding anything, he wasn’t lying about anything, he worked to make sure people understood the severe limitations of what he was offering. But it was posted in the wrong location, and so it’s a “con.”


Yes, and that is why it was recognized as a "con" by TUG (not just me) (and prohibited in the TUG Bargain Basement).

What?  You think I am in charge of the TUG Bargain Basement?


----------



## SmithOp

only on TUG could something like this get dug up from 5 years ago, to again beat up the dead horse. Sorry for that analogy Ron.

I learned a lot from Ron about W, enough to know I wanted nothing to do with that system. I have a lot of respect for how he was willing to share his knowledge here.

For people that followed him he made it perfectly clear what he was doing getting rid of stripped contracts. TUG rules got changed, big deal, stuff changes all the time, get over it and move on.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## CO skier

SmithOp said:


> only on TUG could something like this get dug up from 5 years ago,


The past, in hindsight, is embarrassing for certain ex-owners.


----------



## paxsarah

CO skier said:


> Yes, and that is why it was recognized as a "con" by TUG (not just me) (and prohibited in the TUG Bargain Basement).
> 
> What?  You think I am in charge of the TUG Bargain Basement?


Can you point me to the post in question where a representative of TUG (was it TUGBrian or a mod?) referred to it as a “con”? Unfortunately, “con” is too short a term to be searchable on the forum so I can’t find it.

You do realize that “doesn’t fit the criteria” is not synonymous with “con.” Someone may post on last minute rentals with the wrong dates and they get taken down, but nobody says it’s a con.


----------



## CO skier

SmithOp said:


> TUG rules got changed, big deal, stuff changes all the time, get over it and move on.


Good advice, now and in the past.

[Club Wyndham] rules got changed, big deal, stuff changes all the time, get over it and move on.


----------



## CO skier

paxsarah said:


> Can you point me to the post in question where a representative of TUG (was it TUGBrian or a mod?) referred to it as a “con”?


C'mon.  Do you really believe the [poster] did not know what he was doing at the time in 2016?

Does not really matter.  TUG ended the crappy Wyndham contracts ads in the Bargain Basement in 2016, then Wynham changed the Credit Pool to Points Deposit and ended crappy, stripped contracts for all time.


----------



## dgalati

Cyrus24 said:


> Is there a difference between a loophole and a glitch?  Asking for a friend.


Yes a glitch was not very beneficial to my travel needs as it caused a negative balance. You could also consider most Wyndham updates to their website contain some type of glitch that may hinder a owner from using the website..  A loophole on the other hand helped VIP owners game the system by using millions of resale points with VIP discounts and free upgrades. What made this loophole worse were the owners that used the reservations as rentals for personal financial gain. The rentals limited needed inventory for owners to book for personal use.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Wow, I am appalled and sad at how rude and judgmental people are being on here.  And forever thankful for my TUG friends that have posted over the years, and now.

I found TUG because of a con. That word applies for sure.  Sorry if it offends anyone, but I can tell you with 99% certainly I would never have owned a timeshare, developer or resale, had Wyndham not conned my father.  Seriously, 1.4M points sold to an 80+ year old? And so I found TUG.  1st because of Wyndham conning my Dad to purchase way too many points than he could use, secondly because he then paid someone $5000 to take it off his hands. Thankfully I found TUG, the $5000 was on a credit card and within a cancellation period, and so my Dad cancelled that transaction, *I joined TUG*, and so it began.

It's fair to say everything I learned, I learned on TUG. I will forever be thankful for the open discussions we've had over the years here. Some TUGgers have been extremely forthcoming. I am grateful over the years and now. And so very sorry to see the changes in the TUG 'culture', the rude and inconsiderate comments are out of line, IMO. You've always needed tough skin to be here, but anyone should feel comfortable posting their scenario and getting input. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But stating it once and without judgmental innuendoes would be most appreciated. It's a shame we can't openly discuss some things that are pretty important without the constant jabbing and I told you so's.

While I'm posting, I realize it's beating a dead horse, and I've tended to ignore a lot these days. But...I am going to comment on the cancel/rebook. History is important. I am beyond tired of hearing people refer to it a loophole, etc.  Nothing I have done (after learning here) have I done without first verifying with Wyndham, multiple times, that it was okay. I was super surprised to learn it was okay to cancel/rebook. I called multiple times and talked to different VC's to confirm it was okay. Still I was nervous, what if I lost the reservation? Conversations would go like this: First they'd tell you very emphatically and positively that it was okay. Even so much that they'll do it for you. Nervous, they would offer to do it for you. And then go on to tell you how good they are at it. They would tell you how they'd never lost any, or only lost one, etc, etc. This was VC's, not sales, that's the people we call to confirm how things work. Sales is a whole other discussion - they totally used it as a sales tool without any mention of risk. I sat in one meeting with my Dad (comically, I would not go, he would, but they would want him to come back with me the next day). Again pimping the cancel/rebook to my Dad, and me saying but you could lose the reservation - and sales then agreeing, well yeah, but you never do.  So, yeah, all good things come to an end. But again, the con there started with Wyndham. 

That is just one example. I won't go on with the many others that I could. Wyndham, over and over, cannot specifically put forth defined, enforceable rules. It's deliberate. It's their con. They are not good people. The new "rules" are no exception. "Rules" in quotes, because we still don't know what they are.

Timeshares are shady because the timeshare companies are shady. It starts at the top.  I'll stop now, other than to say, I wish there were a safe place, perhaps a closed group, where things could openly and honestly be discussed without the I told you so comments from the peanut gallery. I miss that.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Jan M. said:


> I know several people who are using Certified Exit. They were kind enough to share information with me to help me come to a decision about what I want to do.
> 
> Some things in the terms and conditions under Ovations are the same for Certified Exit but not all.
> 
> One thing I noticed right away are the timeframes. What was then 8-10 weeks and 6-8 weeks for the two steps of the process under Ovations is currently 9-12 weeks and 8-10 weeks with Certified Exit. I'd guess that's due to the increased work load this change is bringing.


Not truly being able to know what would happen if I used Ovations (when I was looking at some things it was before Certified Exit) is what kept me from using the program.  It's beyond frustrating that Wyndham cannot provide details so people can make informed decisions. I've said it before, as with all things Wyndham, do your research, and then do what you think is going to work for you, and see how it ends up. Because with Wyndham you just never know for sure.


----------



## Sandi Bo

tschwa2 said:


> You would think if the current owner pre paid all of the current years MF's they could transfer the contract with 0 points or if the transfer is initiated in the last 3-4 months of the use year since the new owner would not have time to use any points once transferred.  This would be a common sense approach but Developers aren't always guilty of having common sense.


This is really frustrating to me. I don't understand why we can't say the maintenance is paid for 2021. Why can't the new owner take over Jan 2022 with Jan 2022 points forward.  Instead, uncertainty abounds, as with all things Wyndham.


----------



## chapjim

CO skier said:


> I am not an attorney, but I know there is _a lot_ more to it than that.  Disclosure, to name only one.



Make it a willing and informed buyer and a willing and informed seller.  Better?


----------



## rickandcindy23

@Sandi Bo I completely agree with you.  This is a different TUG than it has been in the past.  When we bought our platinum account, I had several people advising us, including BocaBum99 and Jya-Ning, if I remember his name correctly.  I could look it up.  Believe me, there are many more Wyndham "mega renters" that are watching these threads and are not posting.  They are not going to post here, believe me, with all of this hate, as if we have been taking inventory from regular owners who think they should be able to book anytime they want, anything they want. 

What makes these non-VIP owners think anything will be so different?  You must plan ahead.  Ebay is proof that people are still paying to get out of their timeshares, and a lot of the sales' pitch on getting out is exactly for that reason.  People don't plan ahead and cannot get the exact thing they want, the moment they want it.  Instant gratification is not how timeshares work.  Prime dates go quickly.  I gave the example of our Hono Koa and the competition for the whale season weeks.  

I didn't run the timeshare rental business, our daughter did that and I didn't worry about it.  I didn't have to worry about it, so I didn't check to see what fees were.  

Some of the owners who are angry have posted in Last Minute Rentals, as though you never rent anything.  What if Wyndham stops you from renting anything at all?  What if Wyndham decides at some point that you must be present any time a guest is added?


----------



## scootr5

To be clear, it appears to be primarily one poster who seems to feel he was wronged somehow. He made it a personal vendetta to get Ron's listings removed, and continues to insist on bad mouthing him and calling him a "con" and implying that the TUG powers that be agreed (although to the best of my knowledge not one of them ever called what he was listing a "con", just that it did not fit what they defined as the purpose of the bargain forum).

I'm of the opinion that not much will change in the long run with regards to availability.


----------



## Eric B

scootr5 said:


> I'm of the opinion that not much will change in the long run with regards to availability.



That's pretty much what I'm thinking as well.  There's got to be a pretty large number of unused points out there right now that will have to work it's way through the system, but once we get past that hump things will likely stabilize close to where they were before, particularly for the average Wyndham owner booking around the four month point.  Might be some minor changes at the margins, but it probably won't be a sea change in things unless Wyndham adopts owner prioritization more permanently - and I don't see that happening given the impact it has on Extra Holidays.  Everyone will have to come up with a different bogeyman to blame now that Wyndham has slain the megarenter dragon.


----------



## 55plus

I was wondering who's buying those million plus point Wyndham contracts on eBay? Any TUGers out there buying these? Is there a new breed of up and coming mega renters buying these? I've seen about a dozen of them listed for sale so far.


----------



## 55plus

SmithOp said:


> only on TUG could something like this get dug up from 5 years ago, to again beat up the dead horse. Sorry for that analogy Ron.
> 
> I learned a lot from Ron about W, enough to know I wanted nothing to do with that system. I have a lot of respect for how he was willing to share his knowledge here.
> 
> For people that followed him he made it perfectly clear what he was doing getting rid of stripped contracts. TUG rules got changed, big deal, stuff changes all the time, get over it and move on.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I said it before and I'll say it again, Ron was a rockstar when it came to working Wyndham. I too learned a lot and I also found his writings entertaining. Wyndham should have hired him to picked his brain. Wyndham would be a lot better off now if they did, in my opinion.


----------



## scootr5

55plus said:


> Wyndham should have hired him to picked his brain.



I think that's what they did, in a way. He gave them information and strategies, and they settled with him financially.


----------



## HitchHiker71

I disagree with the logic and assessment that nothing much will change with respect to availability.  Let's use a logic example here since Ron did so earlier.  The first is with respect to those who keep saying they all played by the rules - just to make abundantly clear that this is factually a false statement:

All CWP reservations made for commercial rental purposes violate Wyndham Commercial Use Terms & Conditions
Commercial renters made tens of thousands of reservations consisting of hundreds of millions of points for commercial rental purposes
Therefore commercial renters violated Wyndham Commercial Use Terms & Conditions

True or False?

*True (IMHO)*

Now let's use another logic example regarding availability:

Every rental reservation booked for a non-Wyndham _renter_ removes that exact amount of available inventory for an actual Wyndham vacation _owner_
Commercial renters made hundreds of millions of points rental reservations (at least)
Therefore commercial renters removed hundreds of millions of points of inventory availability for _renters_ that was made inaccessible to Wyndham vacation _owners_

True or False?

*True (IMHO)*

It is basic logic that whenever _anyone _books a reservation that consumes available inventory from the system - that exact piece of inventory is no longer available to anyone else in the system.  If you booked hundreds/thousands of reservations for _renters _during your ownership span - then that exact amount of inventory was in point of fact removed from the system and no longer available to _any other owners_ in the system. The system was designed to allow _owners vs owners _to compete for available inventory - points chasing reservations as Ron stated. It is _not _currently designed to accommodate commercial rental businesses using up large blocks of points for non-Wyndham _renters_ in comparison (not since Voyager was rolled out). This fact is why megarenters were exited from the entire system back in 2016 yes? Unless my logic is wrong here, which is possible since I'm only one person, I'm really at a loss to understand how we can say with a straight face that availability won't change when hundreds of millions of points will be recovered as more megarenters exit the current system.

Does that mean as @paxsarah said that there won't be unhappy owners who wait until the last minute to attempt to book a prime season reservation and then complain that there's no availability?  No it does not.  There will always be people who complain about any system because they don't understand how to use it to their advantage.  But freeing up hundreds of millions of points (at least) that were being consumed _solely by renters _that will be consumed _solely by owners _is a significant step in the right direction and will have a net positive impact on _owners _booking vacations.  Exactly how the owner base consumes the extra inventory (planners vs impromptu) really is immaterial - and therefore all of the arguments as to _which _owners consume inventory really is moot.  As @Eric B  said - it will take time for these changes to play out - and if Wyndham doesn't observe the results they expect - I would expect more actions to further encourage the cessation of commercial timeshare rental business activities.

Now to respond to a couple of underlying tones that I've observed repeatedly here on TUG that I think are changing - at least in part - and to demonstrate some sensitivity to those who are seeing the death of the old as we move toward something new (whatever that may be).  As @Sandi Bo and @rickandcindy23 have demonstrated in recent posts - there's a sense of "us vs them" on two levels that I've observed.  The first level is Wyndham vs TUG.  The TUG culture in the past has largely created an environment that encourages an "us vs them" attitude with respect to Wyndham.  I am not the type of person to buy into this perspective.  I believe in building bridges to effect change for the better for all involved - and I try to lead by example - which is why I've worked extremely hard over the past three years to build strategic relationships with key resources at Wyndham.  With that in mind, I'm going to use something @Sandi Bo posted as an example of what we should try to avoid IMHO:



> That is just one example. I won't go on with the many others that I could. Wyndham, over and over, cannot specifically put forth defined, enforceable rules. It's deliberate. It's their con. *They are not good people.* The new "rules" are no exception. "Rules" in quotes, because we still don't know what they are.



I've bolded the words I take issue with.  Who is they?  It appears They is Wyndham.  IME there are _many _good people at Wyndham - just like the _many _good people here at TUG - who are simply trying to support their families as best possible via the income that working at Wyndham generates, just like there are many people running commercial rental businesses here on TUG to support their families as best possible using Wyndham timeshare inventory. Because I reject the "us vs them" premise, IMHO I think we need to be extremely careful with our words when we make statements like this, because when we do so it colors our entire outlook at a fundamental level. Now that said, do I think that's what @Sandi Bo really meant? With respect to Wyndham - I doubt it - but only she can answer that question - but I don't believe that all Wyndham people are bad people - just as I don't believe the folks here on TUG are bad people - because my experience with all of these people tells me otherwise (whether Wyndham or TUG). But that's me - because I believe in building bridges and relationships to work together to make things better for all involved. I believe in tearing down walls that promote division.

This brings us to the second level of "us vs them" and that's what we see playing out on this thread.  The old perspectives vs the new perspectives.  I suspect that at least a part of Sandi's response was actually an attempt to shift blame away from the megarenters and toward Wyndham - and at least in part given Wyndham once encouraged the exact behaviors they are now attempting to discourage - there's at least some validity in taking this approach.  I also recognize that she and many others who have been here for a long time are seeing other folks that they have built relationships with via TUG come under scrutiny, and that's never easy to watch - and we often want to come to the defense of those we care about when this type of thing plays out.  That is natural - it is even healthy to do and to see happen.  This is likely a process we will continue to see play out here on TUG in the ensuing months.  It is a healthy process and in many ways its a _necessary _process to get to the other side of all of this. When we come across especially contentious topics where we will inevitably disagree -  we will likely have to simply agree to disagree and/or suspend debate to allow  calmer heads to prevail.

The last point I wish to make is about the old vs the new perspectives.  History teaches us that the new perspectives will eventually win out.  That's just how it almost always works out.  The young eventually replace the old.  We are all navigating a state of transition for the Wyndham system here on TUG.  It won't be easy for the older TUG folks to sit by and watch the death of commercial rental businesses - especially those who were running those businesses or had family or close friends doing so - since part of their livelihood is likely coming to an end.  Having recently gone through a significant forced career change myself due to my company being acquired last year - I can certainly empathize with the prospect of having to face an uncertain future with respect to bringing in a paycheck.  Overall - let's try to embrace the "seek first to understand before being understood" proverb when it comes to contentious topics.


----------



## troy12n

@HitchHiker71 very factual representation. 

People running businesses out of their timeshares created this mess. They are now playing the victim game. Which in my opinion is completely pathetic. 

And are hiding behind half truths or outright lies to justify their prior business practices. Like I said in a previous post, it's very telling now that people are going through their ownership portfolio and fining out that they have millions of points at pretty awful MF... and when they were able to "turn and burn" reservations to cover those expenses it didn't matter. But now that the faucet is about to be forcibly shut off, oh baby!

It's 2am, the music stopped, the lights are coming on...

I guess back in the day, TUG was more welcoming of people who make a game out of cheating the system. I'm sure a lot of you learned some really questionable practices from people back in the day too. Under the guise of "well, they aren't stopping us"... please.


----------



## rickandcindy23

These resale Wyndham points will go to new buyers, who will attend a timeshare presentation with their million resale points, a salesperson will show them the benefits of Platinum and buying some points to bring everything into Platinum, and those same points will be used at discounts and for reservations way ahead of the slackers who don't book what they need soon enough.  I can guarantee this will happen.  There will be bargains to get platinum, just like my price to get platinum in 2007.  It's always tempting, it tempted me.  

Even the exchange game means planning ahead. There are people with retrades that are grabbing things before I can get to them, simply because there is a time difference of 2 hours.  I saw posts this morning of II's Westin weeks on Maui and Kauai.  A lot were gone by the time I got up at 6:30 Mountain Time.  Planning ahead works.  I could have entered reasonable ongoing searches to catch some of this inventory, but I didn't do it.  My fault.  I tried to get a 2 bed with a one bed deposit.  If I would have requested a one bed with a one bed deposit, I would have matched.  I know the game and am not bitter.


----------



## rickandcindy23

troy12n said:


> @HitchHiker71 very factual representation.
> 
> People running businesses out of their timeshares created this mess. They are now playing the victim game. Which in my opinion is completely pathetic.
> 
> And are hiding behind half truths or outright lies to justify their prior business practices. Like I said in a previous post, it's very telling now that people are going through their ownership portfolio and fining out that they have millions of points at pretty awful MF... and when they were able to "turn and burn" reservations to cover those expenses it didn't matter. But now that the faucet is about to be forcibly shut off, oh baby!
> 
> It's 2am, the music stopped, the lights are coming on...
> 
> I guess back in the day, TUG was more welcoming of people who make a game out of cheating the system. I'm sure a lot of you learned some really questionable practices from people back in the day too. Under the guise of "well, they aren't stopping us"... please.


I am not a victim.  I am getting out as gracefully as Wyndham will allow me to get out.  It's up to them.  This is not going to change my life in any way.  Not one iota.  It will change our daughter's life.  I love her more than any Wyndham profits.  

What mess are you talking about, anyway?


----------



## rickandcindy23

Sandi Bo said:


> This is really frustrating to me. I don't understand why we can't say the maintenance is paid for 2021. Why can't the new owner take over Jan 2022 with Jan 2022 points forward.  Instead, uncertainty abounds, as with all things Wyndham.


Right!  I don't understand that at all.  Wyndham may change this for those of us who want out.  After all, it's going to be less complaining from Wyndham owners who cannot book whatever they want, whenever they want because of all of the "mega renters" who are stealing their vacations.


----------



## paxsarah

troy12n said:


> @HitchHiker71 very factual representation.





troy12n said:


> playing the victim game





troy12n said:


> pathetic.





troy12n said:


> half truths or outright lies





troy12n said:


> the faucet is about to be forcibly shut off, oh baby





troy12n said:


> people who make a game out of cheating the system





troy12n said:


> questionable practices



I'm not sure we got the same message out of reading Hitchhiker's post.


----------



## troy12n

paxsarah said:


> I'm not sure we got the same message out of reading Hitchhiker's post.



He certainly expressed his thoughts in a much more diplomatic way than I did. But feel free to point out where anything I said was factually inaccurate.

The only people I feel sorry for are the owners who used their points for themselves and their family vacation and maybe who in the process rented a stay or two to help defer MF costs. Not the "number of GC's in the hundreds" crowd...

I'm not holding punches, if you don't like me expressing my opinion, please feel free to put me on ignore...


----------



## HitchHiker71

rickandcindy23 said:


> These resale Wyndham points will go to new buyers, who will attend a timeshare presentation with their million resale points, a salesperson will show them the benefits of Platinum and buying some points to bring everything into Platinum, and those same points will be used at discounts and for reservations way ahead of the slackers who don't book what they need soon enough.  I can guarantee this will happen.  There will be bargains to get platinum, just like my price to get platinum in 2007.  It's always tempting, it tempted me.



I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying here - but if you're saying that resale points will somehow be converted into developer eligible points during the sales process - I have tried repeatedly over the past two years to find a way to do this - and have been shut down every time and told this is no longer possible and hasn't been possible for roughly 10 years now.  I highly doubt there will be "special deals" given to convert resale to retail.  With that in mind - those points will stay as resale points - and therefore I don't see how those same points will be used for VIP discounts?  Or are you referring to the non-VIP discount windows offered?  My overall sense is that the new Wyndham CEO isn't going to allow the wheeling and dealing that was permissible under prior executive leadership teams.  It's a new culture at Wyndham now - using different rules now.  Old vs new.


----------



## rickandcindy23

HitchHiker71 said:


> I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying here - but if you're saying that resale points will somehow be converted into developer eligible points during the sales process - I have tried repeatedly over the past two years to find a way to do this - and have been shut down every time and told this is no longer possible and hasn't been possible for roughly 10 years now.  I highly doubt there will be "special deals" given to convert resale to retail.  With that in mind - those points will stay as resale points - and therefore I don't see how those same points will be used for VIP discounts?  Or are you referring to the non-VIP discount windows offered?  My overall sense is that the new Wyndham CEO isn't going to allow the wheeling and dealing that was permissible under prior executive leadership teams.  It's a new culture at Wyndham now - using different rules now.  Old vs new.


Until the sales' department cannot sell anything at all.  They need to incentivize to sell.  The prices are outrageous for platinum, so I see a path for them to offer cheap conversions.  Why would they not?  They did that less than five years ago that I am aware of, because I had friends who did it. There is a recent post of someone offered Gold.  The presentation was sleazy, if you ask me.  

If you are a Wyndham employee, you might want to say that because most of your posts come across that way.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

troy12n said:


> He certainly expressed his thoughts in a much more diplomatic way than I did. But feel free to point out where anything I said was factually inaccurate.
> 
> The only people I feel sorry for are the owners who used their points for themselves and their family vacation and maybe who in the process rented a stay or two to help defer MF costs. Not the "number of GC's in the hundreds" crowd...
> 
> I'm not holding punches, if you don't like me expressing my opinion, please feel free to put me on ignore...



so I guess your not a Tom Brady fan.........


----------



## Cyrus24

rickandcindy23 said:


> If you are a Wyndham employee, you might want to say that because most of your posts come across that way.


I don't believe hitchhker71 to be a Wyndham employee, but, I'd certainly bet that he's been 'compensated' for all the work he's done for them.  That should be disclosed.


----------



## HitchHiker71

rickandcindy23 said:


> Until the sales' department cannot sell anything at all.  They need to incentivize to sell.  The prices are outrageous for platinum, so I see a path for them to offer cheap conversions.  Why would they not?  They did that less than five years ago that I am aware of, because I had friends who did it. There is a recent post of someone offered Gold.  The presentation was sleazy, if you ask me.



Interesting.  You had friends who were able to convert resale contracts to developer contracts within the last five years?  I only became an owner in July 2018 - so I cannot speak from experience - I can only relay what I've been told from others in the past.  I think people here on TUG are underestimating the culture changes ongoing at Wyndham after Michael Brown was installed as the CEO in 2017.  



> If you are a Wyndham employee, you might want to say that because most of your posts come across that way.



This statement serves as another good example of the "us vs them" mentality here on TUG.  This appears to be a nice way of saying that if I don't agree with the prior sentiments here on TUG from the old crew, then I must be in cahoots with Wyndham.  Newsflash - I'm part of the new crew - and just because my perspective is different - doesn't make me the enemy - it doesn't mean I work for a timeshare company - it simply means I have a different - and equally valid - perspective.  Just because I choose to build bridges and attempt to effect change - my motives here are called into question.  So let's be crystal clear here, I am _not _a Wyndham employee.  I have _never _received any compensation from Wyndham for any of the work that I've done.  I've never _asked_ for any compensation for what I've done either.  I'm not a "tit for tat" type person either.  I do what I do simply because I choose to do it.  I don't have any expectations in return.  Expectations are simply premeditated resentments in this life IME.  

For those interested, I work in IT for a software development company and have _never _worked for any timeshare company.  My first foray into timeshare ownership started in 2018.  I'm a relatively new timeshare owner interested in working _with _the timeshare company I have made an investment in to effect positive change for myself and other owners who are also interested in not continuing to embrace an "us vs them" mentality. If you any/or anyone else doesn't appreciate this new perspective - we can agree to disagree - and leave it at that. Nothing that anyone here on TUG says or attempts to do will prevent me from pushing forward with full intention in building bridges and effecting positive change for my part.


----------



## troy12n

Cyrus24 said:


> I don't believe hitchhker71 to be a Wyndham employee, but, I'd certainly bet that he's been 'compensated' for all the work he's done for them.  That should be disclosed.



I get the impression he's not and he's certainly not required to disclose if he is. He's been a lot more helpful for the TUG community than any of the people playing loose and fast with the rules that some of you idolize... I would like to hope you don't run him off


----------



## Cyrus24

HitchHiker71 said:


> I have _never _received any compensation from Wyndham for any of the work that I've done.


You should be compensated.  Just my opinion.


----------



## Cyrus24

troy12n said:


> I get the impression he's not and he's certainly not required to disclose if he is. He's been a lot more helpful for the TUG community than any of the people playing loose and fast with the rules that some of you idolize... I would like to hope you don't run him off


Please don't continue to put me in with this group of TUGgers that you vilify.  I've never paid for a GC because I seldom use them  Only 15% of my account is resale.  I have rented in the last year to cover some of my MF's since my regular travel was interrupted by COVID.  You have a very broad brush that you paint with.  A little more acceptance and empathy would go a long way for you to have some credibility.  And, you really SHOULD become a member of this amazing group.


----------



## rickandcindy23

HitchHiker71 said:


> Interesting.  You had friends who were able to convert resale contracts to developer contracts within the last five years?  I only became an owner in July 2018 - so I cannot speak from experience - I can only relay what I've been told from others in the past.  I think people here on TUG are underestimating the culture changes ongoing at Wyndham after Michael Brown was installed as the CEO in 2017.
> 
> 
> 
> This statement serves as another good example of the "us vs them" mentality here on TUG.  This appears to be a nice way of saying that if I don't agree with the prior sentiments here on TUG from the old crew, then I must be in cahoots with Wyndham.  Newsflash - I'm part of the new crew - and just because my perspective is different - doesn't make me the enemy - it doesn't mean I work for a timeshare company - it simply means I have a different - and equally valid - perspective.  Just because I choose to build bridges and attempt to effect change - my motives here are called into question.  So let's be crystal clear here, I am _not _a Wyndham employee.  I have _never _received any compensation from Wyndham for any of the work that I've done.  I've never _asked_ for any compensation for what I've done either.  I'm not a "tit for tat" type person either.  I do what I do simply because I choose to do it.  I don't have any expectations in return.  Expectations are simply premeditated resentments in this life IME.
> 
> For those interested, I work in IT for a software development company and have _never _worked for any timeshare company.  My first foray into timeshare ownership started in 2018.  I'm a relatively new timeshare owner interested in working _with _the timeshare company I have made an investment in to effect positive change for myself and other owners who are also interested in not continuing to embrace an "us vs them" mentality. If you any/or anyone else doesn't appreciate this new perspective - we can agree to disagree - and leave it at that. Nothing that anyone here on TUG says or attempts to do will prevent me from pushing forward with full intention in building bridges and effecting positive change for my part.


No, it's not an us vs. them post.  You do come across that way, and you keep talking about Michael Brown as though you know him personally.  It was not meant to be an accusation at all.  I thought you might be trying to shed a light on the changes as they relate to Wyndham's side.  You did the same thing when changes were made to the computer system a while back, if that was indeed you.


----------



## paxsarah

rickandcindy23 said:


> No, it's not an us vs. them post.  You do come across that way, and you keep talking about Michael Brown as though you know him personally.  It was not meant to be an accusation at all.  I thought you might be trying to shed a light on the changes as they relate to Wyndham's side.  You did the same thing when changes were made to the computer system a while back, if that was indeed you.


Hitchhiker and Richelle have made it very clear that they have developed relationships with some of the folks within Wyndham, and as a result have been able to create two-way communication between TUG and Wyndham (and FB and Wyndham, where they are also both very active) regarding website issues and updates. I have been very impressed with the level of influence that allowed TUG members basically a direct conduit to Wyndham to make suggestions/report bugs. Many things that were "broken" or sub-optimal after the abrupt website update of last year were fixed more quickly and/or prioritized because of their efforts. And they've done this, as best I can tell, simply because they want to improve the owner experience and provide clarity. It's basically all here on TUG.


----------



## rickandcindy23

paxsarah said:


> Hitchhiker and Richelle have made it very clear that they have developed relationships with some of the folks within Wyndham, and as a result have been able to create two-way communication between TUG and Wyndham (and FB and Wyndham, where they are also both very active) regarding website issues and updates. I have been very impressed with the level of influence that allowed TUG members basically a direct conduit to Wyndham to make suggestions/report bugs. Many things that were "broken" or sub-optimal after the abrupt website update of last year were fixed more quickly and/or prioritized because of their efforts. And they've done this, as best I can tell, simply because they want to improve the owner experience and provide clarity. It's basically all here on TUG.


It was not meant to be accusatory.  I thought maybe this poster was trying to SHED SOME LIGHT from Wyndham's perspective, which is actually what I get from the posts, which I find to be very well thought out and helpful to me.  

As an owner of over 14 years now, I have had some interesting conversations of my own with Wyndham employees, who love owners and are probably getting somewhat beat up over these changes.  That has always been a concern of mine (for the employees) because I know one owner of multiple-millions of points who was threatened to be shut down after yelling at an employee.  Ironically, he was shut down about two years ago, if I remember correctly.  We had dinner with him about five years ago and he had a huge business.


----------



## dgalati

troy12n said:


> @HitchHiker71 very factual representation.
> 
> I guess back in the day, TUG was more welcoming of people who make a game out of cheating the system. I'm sure a lot of you learned some really questionable practices from people back in the day too. Under the guise of "well, they aren't stopping us"... please.


I remember the first time someone pointed out the loophole of resale points being used with VIP discounts. Boy did that comment go over like a lead Zeppelin!


----------



## rickandcindy23

dgalati said:


> I remember the first time someone pointed out the loophole of resale points being used with VIP discounts. Boy did that comment go over like a lead Zeppelin!


You have been a member for six years, and I guarantee there were open conversations on TUG in 2007 about that.


----------



## rickandcindy23

My resale points were always in my one account and had no option to book as regular points.  They were treated as platinum.  It's how it was, and they are ending it.  Why does everyone assume that we had the option to book any differently?  We didn't.  Salespeople sold it that way to some.  I didn't get sold with that benefit in mind.  Anyone who added resale points after a VIP purchase could figure it out.  It was obvious. 

For those who don't know the past and how easy it was to get platinum, I know people who bought Wyndham points resale and called Wyndham corporate, paid $2,500 and converted all of their resale points (at once) to platinum.  This was discussed on TUG many times.  I was so surprised that one guy who did that just gave his 1,000,000+ points back to Wyndham because RCI no longer offered 2 bedroom units at DVC and he needed those 2 bedroom units.  He is a friend of mine, so I know that one specifically.  

I also know of a TUG member who went to Fairfield Bay and bought 1 million points for $10,000.  I don't think he actually went to Fairfield Bay, but he called and did it over the phone.  

So things have changed and have gotten much more expensive, but another downturn in the economy could bring some deals to those willing to pay for it.


----------



## dgalati

rickandcindy23 said:


> My resale points were always in my one account and had no option to book as regular points.  They were treated as platinum.  It's how it was, and they are ending it.  Why does everyone assume that we had the option to book any differently?  We didn't.


You had no option to book them differently. Where some owners crossed the line was when they bought millions of resale points to use with VIP discounts then ran a commercial rental business. Any one that used more GC's then they were allotted more then likely running a rental business. Some were forced to rent just to cover maintenance fees while others profited off other owners availability to book for personal use. I do know sales also sold this strategy to upsell owners to VIP levels.


----------



## dgalati

rickandcindy23 said:


> You have been a member for six years, and I guarantee there were open conversations on TUG in 2007 about that.


I became a member in 2015 but like @troy12n I didn't become a member for several years. What forced me to join was the free add credits in market place and it also was a very good value to join for 3 years at a time.


----------



## HitchHiker71

rickandcindy23 said:


> No, it's not an us vs. them post.  You do come across that way, and you keep talking about Michael Brown as though you know him personally.  It was not meant to be an accusation at all.  I thought you might be trying to shed a light on the changes as they relate to Wyndham's side.  You did the same thing when changes were made to the computer system a while back, if that was indeed you.



I suppose I may come across that way to you_, _and likely to others that have been around here for a long time and are likely in the "old crew" bucket. But I also suspect that's not the observation many other newer TUG forum members arrive at in comparison. Perhaps that should tell us all something about our perspectives with regard to the TUG Wyndham forum culture at least - and the fact that it is changing. Old vs new. Neither is inherently wrong - but the new will likely outnumber the old over time - and the new perspectives will ultimately therefore win out. My goal is to change the "us vs them" perspective to a "let's work together" perspective - and that is what I am and always will be working toward.

With regard to my comments about Wyndham's leadership and specifically Michael Brown, I've been working in corporate America for 30 years now.  Whenever a new CEO is installed - the entire culture of the company changes in the ensuing years.  The CEO drives the culture and drives changes within every corporation I've ever worked for - and often those changes are _significant _in scope - especially given the fact that change rates are accelerating in the modern business world.  I also read most of the investor relations materials released by Wyndham - and I attend the quarterly investor relations conference calls during which the CEO makes statements about where T&L is going - such as the recent statements made about subscription models for vacation sales (which another thread on TUG already outlined).  It's all out there for anyone to read at any time.  Wyndham is a public company and is required to publish the meeting notes and statements made.  If you actually go read those statements - nothing I'm saying here is new information to those who want to be informed.

That said, I try to stay informed.  Seek first to understand before being understood.  Since I've been interacting with several Wyndham execs over the past few years - I've gotten a pretty solid sense of the culture change - both from the new hires to the folks that have been there for quite some time.  The culture _is _changing quite a bit - and it's being driven by the ELT - as is to be expected.  That's the benefit of building bridges - you get to truly understand both sides of the equation - and attempt to actually resolve problems and challenges.  Those who don't want to make such efforts tend to post their grievances on public forums like TUG - and while I don't personally see this as productive in and of itself - I also _need _such feedback in order to bring the core complaints to Wyndham in a productive manner.

I've never actually met nor interacted directly with Michael Brown other than via a couple of emails sent to his address - which he actually almost never reads directly himself - he has an entire crew of people who manage his inbox and respond to messages - at least that's my current understanding.  Yes - he does read some emails and yes he does respond to some emails - but the majority of his responses - aren't directly written by him.  I've had limited interaction with the COO, CSMO, and CBO (listed here:  https://investor.travelandleisureco.com/governance/our-leadership/default.aspx)  It is a bit unusual for me to interact with the ELT as they are focused largely on strategy whereas most of what I want to focus on is more operational and tactical in nature.  Therefore I tend to interact more directly with folks a level or two underneath the ELT that are responsible for various departmental aspects within the Wyndham business.  I interact most often with SMEs who have the most knowledge on particular subjects - and this is a growing list of folks over time as we hit on an increasingly larger variety of subject matters for guidance.

Lastly, as @paxsarah said - Richelle and I championed the website fix list back in May 2020 in an effort to help Wyndham improve the website experience.  Honestly, we had mixed results from TUG participation - because that's when we learned beyond any shadow of a doubt - that a particularly voal subset of TUG members don't represent the majority.  As others have repeatedly said here on this thread - there are many commercial renters here on TUG - most of which aren't posting much of anything - but those who are here and did post on website issues - were asking for functions that Wyndham explicitly removed from the new website - and for reasons that should be increasingly apparent given the recent VIP resale contract changes.  Wyndham isn't going to allocate significant resources delivering functionalities that fall into the 1% ownership category - especially if those owner accounts making the ask are facilitating a ton of rental activity.  Again, old vs new.  The new will win out - it's just a question of when - and its abundantly clear to me at least, that the Wyndham ELT is pushing to eliminate commercial renters from their timeshare business.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Cyrus24 said:


> You should be compensated.  Just my opinion.



If offered something free and clear - I would consider any such offer - with the clear understanding that there is zero quid pro quo.  Again, any/all expectations are simply premeditated resentments.


----------



## HitchHiker71

rickandcindy23 said:


> My resale points were always in my one account and had no option to book as regular points.  They were treated as platinum.  It's how it was, and they are ending it.  Why does everyone assume that we had the option to book any differently?  We didn't.  Salespeople sold it that way to some.  I didn't get sold with that benefit in mind.  Anyone who added resale points after a VIP purchase could figure it out.  It was obvious.
> 
> For those who don't know the past and how easy it was to get platinum, I know people who bought Wyndham points resale and called Wyndham corporate, paid $2,500 and converted all of their resale points (at once) to platinum.  This was discussed on TUG many times.  I was so surprised that one guy who did that just gave his 1,000,000+ points back to Wyndham because RCI no longer offered 2 bedroom units at DVC and he needed those 2 bedroom units.  He is a friend of mine, so I know that one specifically.
> 
> I also know of a TUG member who went to Fairfield Bay and bought 1 million points for $10,000.  I don't think he actually went to Fairfield Bay, but he called and did it over the phone.
> 
> So things have changed and have gotten much more expensive, but another downturn in the economy could bring some deals to those willing to pay for it.



Wish that was somehow possible today - I'd love to get back to VIPP - the best option I've found is either via piggyback contracts, foreclosure contracts, or via account merges.  Outside of those options - I haven't been successful in my continuing search to find any other loophole in the current system.  IME, all of the loopholes that you mention - were closed up in 2018 timeframe after the new CEO was at the helm.  That could just be coincidental timing - but I'm not generally someone who believes in coincidence.  Is Fairfield Bay different than Fairfield Glade?  Because IIRC Fairfield glade is one of the four locations that sold piggyback contracts - so I wonder if that $10,000 1mm points item you refer to was actually a piggyback contract purchase.  Wyndham has since put much more stringent restrictions on piggyback contract sales - starting with a 1:1 retail piggyback points sale requirement.  I've heard the 1:1 requirement is sometimes negotiable - especially in times past prior to 2017 - but I've not heard of anyone after 2017 that has found this to be the case.  I spent some time interacting with one of the sales leaders down in Edisto Island - another piggyback contract sales location - but couldn't find a deal that I felt was worthwhile since the ROI was way too far out on the timescale.  

Specific to your statement about economic downturns - was anyone able to source a deal with Wyndham during the pandemic that is noteworthy?


----------



## rickandcindy23

HitchHiker71 said:


> Wish that was somehow possible today - I'd love to get back to VIPP - the best option I've found is either via piggyback contracts, foreclosure contracts, or via account merges.  Outside of those options - I haven't been successful in my continuing search to find any other loophole in the current system.  IME, all of the loopholes that you mention - were closed up in 2018 timeframe after the new CEO was at the helm.  That could just be coincidental timing - but I'm not generally someone who believes in coincidence.  Is Fairfield Bay different than Fairfield Glade?  Because IIRC Fairfield glade is one of the four locations that sold piggyback contracts - so I wonder if that $10,000 1mm points item you refer to was actually a piggyback contract purchase.  Wyndham has since put much more stringent restrictions on piggyback contract sales - starting with a 1:1 retailiggyback points sale requirement.  I've heard that requuirement is sometimes negotiable - especially in times past prior to 2017 - but I've not heard of anyone after 2017 that has found this to be the case.
> 
> Specific to your statement about economic downturns - was anyone able to source a deal with Wyndham during the pandemic that is noteworthy?


Economic downturns seem to be when the stock market tanks, real estate loses substantial value, the interest rates go up sharply, and of course the country's mood changes to grim.  That is when we saw Platinum accounts so cheap to get.


----------



## Ty1on

rickandcindy23 said:


> My resale points were always in my one account and had no option to book as regular points.  They were treated as platinum.  It's how it was, and they are ending it.  Why does everyone assume that we had the option to book any differently?  We didn't.  Salespeople sold it that way to some.  I didn't get sold with that benefit in mind.  Anyone who added resale points after a VIP purchase could figure it out.  It was obvious.
> 
> For those who don't know the past and how easy it was to get platinum, I know people who bought Wyndham points resale and called Wyndham corporate, paid $2,500 and converted all of their resale points (at once) to platinum.  This was discussed on TUG many times.  I was so surprised that one guy who did that just gave his 1,000,000+ points back to Wyndham because RCI no longer offered 2 bedroom units at DVC and he needed those 2 bedroom units.  He is a friend of mine, so I know that one specifically.
> 
> I also know of a TUG member who went to Fairfield Bay and bought 1 million points for $10,000.  I don't think he actually went to Fairfield Bay, but he called and did it over the phone.
> 
> So things have changed and have gotten much more expensive, but another downturn in the economy could bring some deals to those willing to pay for it.



In fairness, I don't think you're really (or at least should be) the target of the criticism.  There are people leveraging 20M+ points with a million point developer contract to get them to VIPP.  There have been people who have had multiple accounts like this, for example leveraging 80M points with 4-5M retail points.  You have some retail points in your account that you couldn't help being treated like VIP points.  Others have gone out and acquired tens of millions of points to operate as a business.  That's a choice they made which was outside the letter of Club Wyndham rules.  Do I defend them because they were only exploiting Wyndham's own hole and because weasels were coaching them to do it?  I do, but I can't bring myself to view them as innocent victims of Wyndham's inefficiencies, either.


----------



## troy12n

HitchHiker71 said:


> Is Fairfield Bay different than Fairfield Glade?  Because IIRC Fairfield glade is one of the four locations that sold piggyback contracts



Yes, Fairfield Glade is in Tennessee inbetween Knoxville and Nashville off of I-40, Fairfield Bay is somewhere in BFE Arkansas (i've never been). 

Fairfield Bay is the first, original Fairfield timeshare development, built in the late 70's I believe. Fairfield Glade is I believe the second one. I've been to this one, and if you are a golfer, it's really nice. If you like a quiet place which is low points, and relaxing is your thing, this is a nice place. Not so much if you have young kids or teens, they will be bored out of their mind. I have no desire to ever visit Fairfield Bay. I hear both locations, for whatever reason, have higher than expected MF... probably because of abandonment of deeds/foreclosures.


----------



## rapmarks

troy12n said:


> Yes, Fairfield Glade is in Tennessee inbetween Knoxville and Nashville off of I-40, Fairfield Bay is somewhere in BFE Arkansas (i've never been).
> 
> Fairfield Bay is the first, original Fairfield timeshare development, built in the late 70's I believe. Fairfield Glade is I believe the second one. I've been to this one, and if you are a golfer, it's really nice. If you like a quiet place which is low points, and relaxing is your thing, this is a nice place. Not so much if you have young kids or teens, they will be bored out of their mind. I have no desire to ever visit Fairfield Bay. I hear both locations, for whatever reason, have higher than expected MF... probably because of abandonment of deeds/foreclosures.


Fairfield Bay, our first exchange with two 15 year old girls.  Drove over an hour from nearest highway, basically in middle of nowhere , no television in guest bedroom, weather terrible, girls were miserable until a 16 year old boy was discovered, never go back.  Fairfield glade in pretty area of Tennessee and some nice things to do in the area, plus wonderful for golfers.  Both resorts limited free use of pool, charged to use outdoor pools.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

rapmarks said:


> Fairfield Bay, our first exchange with two 15 year old girls.  Drove over an hour from nearest highway, basically in middle of nowhere , no television in guest bedroom, weather terrible,
> 
> girls were miserable until a 16 year old boy was discovered .........



Thank you for the best memory post of the day.

< I bet those "girls" are  closer to 40 today & still remember that vacation>


----------



## rapmarks

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Thank you for the best memory post of the day.
> 
> < I bet those "girls" are  closer to 40 today & still remember that vacation>


Yes I will ask her


----------



## rapmarks

I just read the resurrected post from 2015 where Ronnwas giving away his contracts.  I saw no con, as some have asserted.  Yes, there were expenses, the timeshare wasn’t free.  But what was astonishing was that timeshares still had sales value in those days, that someone would actually pay for a resale,


----------



## Sandi Bo

Ty1on said:


> In fairness, I don't think you're really (or at least should be) the target of the criticism.  There are people leveraging 20M+ points with a million point developer contract to get them to VIPP.  There have been people who have had multiple accounts like this, for example leveraging 80M points with 4-5M retail points.  You have some retail points in your account that you couldn't help being treated like VIP points.  Others have gone out and acquired tens of millions of points to operate as a business.  That's a choice they made which was outside the letter of Club Wyndham rules.  Do I defend them because they were only exploiting Wyndham's own hole and because weasels were coaching them to do it?  I do, but I can't bring myself to view them as innocent victims of Wyndham's inefficiencies, either.


Which is all the more reason the criticism and judging here on TUG is unacceptable. (And I sure thought Cindy was the target of criticism, when someone starts criticizing her MF's and adding on all kinds of assumptions... whew stuff couldn't have made up). 

Honestly, I thought the volumes mentioned here were stopped 3-4 years ago.  And thus, I say, again... if the super mega renting was stopped 3-4 years ago why didn't we see an upswing in availability? The megarenters targeted now are a drop in the bucket compared to what was ended 3-4 years ago.

I think much of this current exercise is a publicity stunt on Wyndham's part. I can't imagine they're doing anything that will amount to much. But they'll milk it.  And have certainly managed to muster considerable animosity amongst owners at this time (there's my conspiracy theory).

Those owners that are thinking this is going to change availability will still be unhappy in the future. Me, personally, I'll continue to work for the discounted reservations I am able to find because I know how the system works, I took the time to understand and figure things out, and check for reservations at times I have learned to be optimum. No loopholes, no whining, not crying victim or that someone is stealing my reservations, just being responsible for myself.

A sign that Wyndham is trying to change their reputation, when we can see changes from the new CEO, might be that people stop calling the sales staff weasels? That means they have to stop being weasels. I'll say it again it starts at the top. Wyndham allows the shady sales practices we hear about, time after time after time.  Has that changed? Time will tell...


----------



## Sandi Bo

HitchHiker71 said:


> I disagree with the logic and assessment that nothing much will change with respect to availability.  Let's use a logic example here since Ron did so earlier.  The first is with respect to those who keep saying they all played by the rules - just to make abundantly clear that this is factually a false statement:
> 
> All CWP reservations made for commercial rental purposes violate Wyndham Commercial Use Terms & Conditions
> Commercial renters made tens of thousands of reservations consisting of hundreds of millions of points for commercial rental purposes
> Therefore commercial renters violated Wyndham Commercial Use Terms & Conditions
> 
> True or False?
> 
> *True (IMHO)*
> 
> Now let's use another logic example regarding availability:
> 
> Every rental reservation booked for a non-Wyndham _renter_ removes that exact amount of available inventory for an actual Wyndham vacation _owner_
> Commercial renters made hundreds of millions of points rental reservations (at least)
> Therefore commercial renters removed hundreds of millions of points of inventory availability for _renters_ that was made inaccessible to Wyndham vacation _owners_
> 
> True or False?
> 
> *True (IMHO)*
> 
> It is basic logic that whenever _anyone _books a reservation that consumes available inventory from the system - that exact piece of inventory is no longer available to anyone else in the system.  If you booked hundreds/thousands of reservations for _renters _during your ownership span - then that exact amount of inventory was in point of fact removed from the system and no longer available to _any other owners_ in the system. The system was designed to allow _owners vs owners _to compete for available inventory - points chasing reservations as Ron stated. It is _not _currently designed to accommodate commercial rental businesses using up large blocks of points for non-Wyndham _renters_ in comparison (not since Voyager was rolled out). This fact is why megarenters were exited from the entire system back in 2016 yes? Unless my logic is wrong here, which is possible since I'm only one person, I'm really at a loss to understand how we can say with a straight face that availability won't change when hundreds of millions of points will be recovered as more megarenters exit the current system.
> 
> Does that mean as @paxsarah said that there won't be unhappy owners who wait until the last minute to attempt to book a prime season reservation and then complain that there's no availability?  No it does not.  There will always be people who complain about any system because they don't understand how to use it to their advantage.  But freeing up hundreds of millions of points (at least) that were being consumed _solely by renters _that will be consumed _solely by owners _is a significant step in the right direction and will have a net positive impact on _owners _booking vacations.  Exactly how the owner base consumes the extra inventory (planners vs impromptu) really is immaterial - and therefore all of the arguments as to _which _owners consume inventory really is moot.  As @Eric B  said - it will take time for these changes to play out - and if Wyndham doesn't observe the results they expect - I would expect more actions to further encourage the cessation of commercial timeshare rental business activities.
> 
> Now to respond to a couple of underlying tones that I've observed repeatedly here on TUG that I think are changing - at least in part - and to demonstrate some sensitivity to those who are seeing the death of the old as we move toward something new (whatever that may be).  As @Sandi Bo and @rickandcindy23 have demonstrated in recent posts - there's a sense of "us vs them" on two levels that I've observed.  The first level is Wyndham vs TUG.  The TUG culture in the past has largely created an environment that encourages an "us vs them" attitude with respect to Wyndham.  I am not the type of person to buy into this perspective.  I believe in building bridges to effect change for the better for all involved - and I try to lead by example - which is why I've worked extremely hard over the past three years to build strategic relationships with key resources at Wyndham.  With that in mind, I'm going to use something @Sandi Bo posted as an example of what we should try to avoid IMHO:
> 
> 
> 
> I've bolded the words I take issue with.  Who is they?  It appears They is Wyndham.  IME there are _many _good people at Wyndham - just like the _many _good people here at TUG - who are simply trying to support their families as best possible via the income that working at Wyndham generates, just like there are many people running commercial rental businesses here on TUG to support their families as best possible using Wyndham timeshare inventory. Because I reject the "us vs them" premise, IMHO I think we need to be extremely careful with our words when we make statements like this, because when we do so it colors our entire outlook at a fundamental level. Now that said, do I think that's what @Sandi Bo really meant? With respect to Wyndham - I doubt it - but only she can answer that question - but I don't believe that all Wyndham people are bad people - just as I don't believe the folks here on TUG are bad people - because my experience with all of these people tells me otherwise (whether Wyndham or TUG). But that's me - because I believe in building bridges and relationships to work together to make things better for all involved. I believe in tearing down walls that promote division.
> 
> This brings us to the second level of "us vs them" and that's what we see playing out on this thread.  The old perspectives vs the new perspectives.  I suspect that at least a part of Sandi's response was actually an attempt to shift blame away from the megarenters and toward Wyndham - and at least in part given Wyndham once encouraged the exact behaviors they are now attempting to discourage - there's at least some validity in taking this approach.  I also recognize that she and many others who have been here for a long time are seeing other folks that they have built relationships with via TUG come under scrutiny, and that's never easy to watch - and we often want to come to the defense of those we care about when this type of thing plays out.  That is natural - it is even healthy to do and to see happen.  This is likely a process we will continue to see play out here on TUG in the ensuing months.  It is a healthy process and in many ways its a _necessary _process to get to the other side of all of this. When we come across especially contentious topics where we will inevitably disagree -  we will likely have to simply agree to disagree and/or suspend debate to allow  calmer heads to prevail.
> 
> The last point I wish to make is about the old vs the new perspectives.  History teaches us that the new perspectives will eventually win out.  That's just how it almost always works out.  The young eventually replace the old.  We are all navigating a state of transition for the Wyndham system here on TUG.  It won't be easy for the older TUG folks to sit by and watch the death of commercial rental businesses - especially those who were running those businesses or had family or close friends doing so - since part of their livelihood is likely coming to an end.  Having recently gone through a significant forced career change myself due to my company being acquired last year - I can certainly empathize with the prospect of having to face an uncertain future with respect to bringing in a paycheck.  Overall - let's try to embrace the "seek first to understand before being understood" proverb when it comes to contentious topics.


I am not even going to try to respond to this, other than when I said they I refer to upper management at Wyndham. They, the upper management of Wyndham, are responsible for the policies and communication of the company. Communications, policies, software are substandard, and I hold them, the upper management of Wyndham, responsible. I did not mean to imply in any way that there are not good people at Wyndham. There are lots of good people at Wyndham. I have had more positive interactions with VC's, Owner Care, Title Services, Finance, the staff of the resorts than I can begin to count. If there are Wyndham folks on here, the ones down in the ditches, I did not mean to offend you in any way.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Sandi Bo said:


> A sign that Wyndham is trying to change their reputation, when we can see changes from the new CEO, might be that people stop calling the sales staff weasels? That means they have to stop being weasels. I'll say it again it starts at the top. Wyndham allows the shady sales practices we hear about, time after time after time. Has that changed? Time will tell...



Agree 100%. While some folks have reported a bit of improvement from the sales division, it’s only just started - and only time will tell if there is any substantive change. 

Based upon a thread we just saw posted here on TUG about a VIPG owner getting the “refinance and buy more points and you will pay no more than you do today because the additional points will cover your MFs” which we all know to he untrue, we still have a long way to go. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HitchHiker71

Sandi Bo said:


> I am not even going to try to respond to this, other than when I said they I refer to upper management at Wyndham. They, the upper management of Wyndham, are responsible for the policies and communication of the company. Communications, policies, software are substandard, and I hold them, the upper management of Wyndham, responsible. I did not mean to imply in any way that there are not good people at Wyndham. There are lots of good people at Wyndham. I have had more positive interactions with VC's, Owner Care, Title Services, Finance, the staff of the resorts than I can begin to count. If there are Wyndham folks on here, the ones down in the ditches, I did not mean to offend you in any way.



Please understand I was only using your words as an example - I was not accusing you of anything directly - just using the literal words typed out. I openly admit to not being a normal person. I take words literally more than most others. I also try not to jump to conclusions about any individual persons motives - which is why I said only you can assign your own motives - but that I doubted you meant what you said literally. 

The ELT certainly drives the corporate culture. It always does. I see glimmers of hope, and am cautiously optimistic looking forward, but am open to being wrong if/when that time comes and to constructive criticisms at any point along the way. For example - I did not think the VIP resale issue would be dealt with so quickly. @dgalati called it right, I called it wrong - certainly the timing of it at the very least. 

@Sandi Bo if I offended you by using your words as an example - that was never my intention and I apologize. I used your words to communicate my views and perspectives as best possible. Sometimes forums can be a bit tone deaf and it’s easy to misinterpret true intentions unfortunately. 

Lastly - you mentioned the sales weasel term.  While I own a couple of non-Wyndham timeshares that I use for PIC - I do not own any other timeshares from the other larger timeshare companies like HGVC, Diamond (now merging into HGVC), BG, Marriott, Disney, etc.  Are the sales practices at the other large competitors different when compared to Wyndham?  I’ve been to a few BG presentations prior to buying into Wyndham - and they seemed to use the same FUD sales tactics as Wyndham IME.  

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> Please understand I was only using your words as an example - I was not accusing you of anything directly - just using the literal words typed out. I openly admit to not being a normal person. I take words literally more than most others. I also try not to jump to conclusions about any individual persons motives - which is why I said only you can assign your own motives - but that I doubted you meant what you said literally.
> 
> The ELT certainly drives the corporate culture. It always does. I see glimmers of hope, and am cautiously optimistic looking forward, but am open to being wrong of/when that time comes and to constructive criticisms at any point along the way. For example - I did not think the VIP resale issue would be dealt with so quickly. @dgalati called it right, I called it wrong - certainly the timing of it at the very least.
> 
> @Sandi Bo if I offended you by using your words as an example - that was never my intention and I apologize. I used your words to communicate my views and perspectives as best possible. Sometimes forums can be a bit tone deaf and it’s easy to misinterpret true intentions unfortunately.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



What hasn’t been dealt with, and is unlikely to be if there hasn’t been a major change of heart anywhere, is the small number of folks that bought resale points to add to their VIP ownership without the intention to begin megarenting under the program rules as they were written when they bought.  I’m in that situation, and while I don’t think it will have much impact on me, I do view it as changing the ground rules I reasonably relied on (to some extent, anyway).  On the plus side, it gives me a great reason to say heck no (not that I really needed one).  On the minus side, it shows a lack a faith on Wyndham’s side coupled with indications of quite poor historic management of their own resources that got them in this situation.  My bottom line is that I should be able to rely on the rules as they existed when I bought without having to research the superseded ones from five years before.

That being said, I still don’t think it will truly effect me based on my usage plans.  IMHO, Wyndham would be better off if they had official means of granting status to resale purchases as exists with Vistana, DRI, and to some extent Marriott.  It should never have taken place as back room deals for some folks favored by certain sales reps.


----------



## troy12n

Sandi Bo said:


> Those owners that are thinking this is going to change availability will still be unhappy in the future. Me, personally, I'll continue to work for the discounted reservations I am able to find because I know how the system works, I took the time to understand and figure things out, and check for reservations at times I have learned to be optimum. No loopholes, no whining, not crying victim or that someone is stealing my reservations, just being responsible for myself.




You know what, it may very well not help global availability much. Time will tell. But it will make me feel a little better that I know that those reservations are in all likelihood going to a family that paid full price for their timeshare, and are using it for their own family to have a wonderful vacation. 

They aren't going to someone who bought some points on ebay for pennies and run a pseudo travel agency from their laptop in their living room. Sitting up at Midnight Eastern to snipe prime weeks. 

Am I making generalizations and assumptions? Sure... am I pretty confident that these assumptions are pretty accurate? Yep! And comments from some of the key players either now, or in the past have borne that out. 

Like I have said dozens of times, I have sympathy for people who are VIP's and have a small or medium portfolio of resales they used for personal use that they now have to manage differently. These people know who the enemy is here... and it's not the "big W"... it's the "wanna-be travel agents". So please place blame where it belongs. If nothing else, be thankful that you were able to get away with it for as long as you did. You probably had a pretty good ride and in all honesty unless you were running a business, this probably won't affect you much.


----------



## Sandi Bo

HitchHiker71 said:


> Please understand I was only using your words as an example - I was not accusing you of anything directly - just using the literal words typed out. I openly admit to not being a normal person. I take words literally more than most others. I also try not to jump to conclusions about any individual persons motives - which is why I said only you can assign your own motives - but that I doubted you meant what you said literally.
> 
> The ELT certainly drives the corporate culture. It always does. I see glimmers of hope, and am cautiously optimistic looking forward, but am open to being wrong if/when that time comes and to constructive criticisms at any point along the way. For example - I did not think the VIP resale issue would be dealt with so quickly. @dgalati called it right, I called it wrong - certainly the timing of it at the very least.
> 
> @Sandi Bo if I offended you by using your words as an example - that was never my intention and I apologize. I used your words to communicate my views and perspectives as best possible. Sometimes forums can be a bit tone deaf and it’s easy to misinterpret true intentions unfortunately.
> 
> Lastly - you mentioned the sales weasel term.  While I own a couple of non-Wyndham timeshares that I use for PIC - I do not own any other timeshares from the other larger timeshare companies like HGVC, Diamond (now merging into HGVC), BG, Marriott, Disney, etc.  Are the sales practices at the other large competitors different when compared to Wyndham?  I’ve been to a few BG presentations prior to buying into Wyndham - and they seemed to use the same FUD sales tactics as Wyndham IME.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for your message. No need to apologize. Yes, any social media can be challenging. Since you tagged me, I felt I should respond. And realize I should be more careful throwing my they's around. 

I have been to so few timeshare presentations, I can't speak to how they compare. Surprisingly not many Wyndham's even (my guess is less than 10), my husband is definitely not a fan (most I was by myself, a few with my Dad). And maybe 1 in Charleston for more of a subscription thing and similar presentation here in Omaha (at Gorat's, Warren Buffet's hangout (Warren wasn't at the presentation)).


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## am1

The best way to hold value would have been for VIP benefits to be based on points owned. Not important if retail or resale.


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## paxsarah

troy12n said:


> going to a family that paid full price for their timeshare


Or they could be going to me. 

But you're right, on average - the vast majority of owners paid full price. Resale (non-VIP) owners are in the minority.


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## SmithOp

dgalati said:


> I remember the first time someone pointed out the loophole of resale points being used with VIP discounts. Boy did that comment go over like a lead Zeppelin!


What turned me off from W was when it was explained how the Mega guys manipulated reservations to make sure they could get their upgrade from a studio to 2br in the discount window.  I prefer a more even playing field competing for reservations.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## rickandcindy23

SmithOp said:


> What turned me off from W was when it was explained how the Mega guys manipulated reservations to make sure they could get their upgrade from a studio to 2br in the discount window.  I prefer a more even playing field competing for reservations.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


That is not loophole anymore.  Hasn't been for about five years.  I remember we were at Shearwater when that stopped.  Six years?  Five years?  When was that. 

The timeshare game has always been that for me, and now I am losing at that game.  It's better to give up than wait until the end, when victory goes to Wyndham.  

Wyndham was good for us for a long time.


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## dgalati

SmithOp said:


> What turned me off from W was when it was explained how the Mega guys manipulated reservations to make sure they could get their upgrade from a studio to 2br in the discount window.  I prefer a more even playing field competing for reservations.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I agree. I bought resale then found out I could rent from a VIP cheaper then paying my maintenance fees. In the 60 day discount window it was usually 1/2 my cost or less depending on if I received  a free room upgrade. When no availability showed for me I turned to a PR owner and had good luck with booking inventory. Trading of deeds worked until the negative balance came about. Overall owning can work but you have to learn the system and make it work for your travel needs. More then few non VIP owners work the system and enjoy 35-40% discounts on inventory when available.


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## 55plus

SmithOp said:


> What turned me off from W was when it was explained how the Mega guys manipulated reservations to make sure they could get their upgrade from a studio to 2br in the discount window.  I prefer a more even playing field competing for reservations.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I'm not a mega renters, much less a renter, but I manipulated upgrades. One time I went from a one bedroom at Ocean Ridge to a four bedroom. I did something similar several times at Panama City and many times at Ocean Walk. It wasn't hard if you had enough points to tie up inventory.


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## Mongoose

Anyone have a copy of the letter Wyndham is sending out to MRs?


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## chapjim

rickandcindy23 said:


> That is not loophole anymore.  Hasn't been for about five years.  I remember we were at Shearwater when that stopped.  Six years?  Five years?  When was that.
> 
> The timeshare game has always been that for me, and now I am losing at that game.  It's better to give up than wait until the end, when victory goes to Wyndham.
> 
> Wyndham was good for us for a long time.



It was May 2017.


----------



## am1

paxsarah said:


> Or they could be going to me.
> 
> But you're right, on average - the vast majority of owners paid full price. Resale (non-VIP) owners are in the minority.


Got 15 minutes to make them all disappear.  Or book the ones in between then cancel them.  At first it was book them and cancel right away as they would come back the next day.   Most VCs were happy to help.


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## ronparise

SmithOp said:


> only on TUG could something like this get dug up from 5 years ago, to again beat up the dead horse. Sorry for that analogy Ron.
> 
> I learned a lot from Ron about W, enough to know I wanted nothing to do with that system. I have a lot of respect for how he was willing to share his knowledge here.
> 
> For people that followed him he made it perfectly clear what he was doing getting rid of stripped contracts. TUG rules got changed, big deal, stuff changes all the time, get over it and move on.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk




I aint dead yet


----------



## ronparise

scootr5 said:


> To be clear, it appears to be primarily one poster who seems to feel he was wronged somehow. He made it a personal vendetta to get Ron's listings removed, and continues to insist on bad mouthing him and calling him a "con" and implying that the TUG powers that be agreed (although to the best of my knowledge not one of them ever called what he was listing a "con", just that it did not fit what they defined as the purpose of the bargain forum).




What that one guy didnt understand was my motivation. 

First a little background 

I was adding wyndhan contracts to my account every year. With each new purchase I put 3 years of points into the credit pool and and emailed  my points manager to advise him that there were more points in the account for him to use and to bill him at $6/thousand for those points. Also at the first of each year the points.  in my contracts,  3 years out, became visible and available to be deposited into the pool for immediate use. I did this credit pooling, and called my points manager to tell him what had just become available to use, and I billed him at $6/1000 points

If you dont see the problem I had developing it was this, 

 In my first year of ownership of any one contract, I made out like a bandit....buy a million points , put 3 million into the pool, pay $6000 in fees, collect $18000 from my points manager.   5 million new points got me  $60000 in the first year.  BUT (and it was a big but)   in the second year I broke even on those 5 million, I had to buy 5 million more to make my $60000 and in the 3rd year i would make $60000 on new points, but break even on 10 million 

so when I got to 30 million points  (in 2014) I knew I had to do something,  all those "break even points' were weighing me down  My points manager could only handle so much. . There were other points managers but they had limits too.  Bottom line was....I needed to get rid of those   stripped  contracts. I considered,  transferring the contracts to a corporation or LLC and walking away from them.  I spent a lit of time on the phone talking to everyone I could looking for a solution.  Finally I found a guy that said he had a buyer. No CWA and no converted weeks.. only the UDIs  and not much money.. So I sent him all my deeds, he prepared new deeds for my signature, which I signed and then the checks started arriving. 20 million points, $100,000  The next year (2015)  I made the bet that I could do it again.. and I did, But instead of 20million points all at once, I  bought, stripped and sold in small pieces, that added up to 20 million points and they paid me a lot less, but I didnt care, I would have paid them to take this stuff  I made my money on the front end at $18/1mm, less maintenance fees  while I owned this stuff ...only a couple of months  And I kept doing it into 2016

So thats the background, and here is my point,, In 2016. when I posted on the bargain deals forum I didnt need the TUG bargain deals forum to move my stripped contracts. I did think there might be some Tuggers that for their own reasons might want one or two of them. By this time I had figured out that it was Wyndham buying my contracts, and rather than giving them my contracts at less than $3/1000 that they would sell for $150. Id give them to tuggers for free. If they had a use for them   If no one had a use for them.. that was ok too. 

 I realize that it was like me walking into the kitchen offering to help with the cleanup after thanksgiving dinner,  when I knew that the cleanup was done... but I thought Id at least get credit for asking, not attacked.. 

By the way if you think I was trying to get away with something at Thanksgiving  ..think again  I was the one up early, doing the meal prep


----------



## ronparise

troy12n said:


> He certainly expressed his thoughts in a much more diplomatic way than I did. But feel free to point out where anything I said was factually inaccurate.
> 
> The only people I feel sorry for are the owners who used their points for themselves and their family vacation and maybe who in the process rented a stay or two to help defer MF costs. Not the "number of GC's in the hundreds" crowd...
> 
> I'm not holding punches, if you don't like me expressing my opinion, please feel free to put me on ignore...




Not holding punches?, good.. I wont either.. Opinions are like assholes...everyone has one... You are free to have whatever opinion you want... what you cant have are your own facts

Your opinion may be that 2+2+5, but you would be wrong

Having said that,, You may be right about large scale commercial renting hurting the smaller owners. But the real damage was done when they bought their timeshares at inflated prices

You cant say commercial activity is against the rules, unless  the rules define what commercial activity is


The question I have is this... If commercial renting is wrong and bad for the Club , why doesn't  Wyndham, on behalf of the Club take direct action to stop it.? The fact is that they havent.  In the early 2000's they added fees and and stopped doing owner to owner transfers of points. to make renting less profitable but they didnt stop it   In 2016 they froze our accounts for "unusual activity". and threatened to sue us,  not for renting,  but for stealing points.  When I told them to "*bleep* Off...Sue Me   They threw a ton of money my way to convince me to go away  They changed the rules again and others continued to rent... And now instead of flat out banning renting, they change the rules to limit discounts, again making renting less profitable, but not banning it

As long as its possible to reserve a  one bedroom at Avenue Plaza  or La Belle Maison for the 4 nights leading up to Mardi Gras Tuesday, , for  under $500 and rent it for $500/night Its gonna happen,..

To end renting Wyndham is gonna have to end renting, and stop playing games


----------



## Braindead

ronparise said:


> Opinions are like assholes...everyone has one.


It might be time for a quick joke to lighten things up. Some probably have heard this old joke & I’ll shorten it up
Bartender cut the drunk guy off.
Drunk guy stewed for awhile & said to the bartender, give me another drink & I’ll tell you something about your wife that you don’t know.
Bartender thought for a minute & curiosity got em, ok tell me the secret about my wife
Drunk guy replies, your wife has 2 assholes & you’re the biggest one!!


----------



## CO skier

scootr5 said:


> To be clear, it appears to be primarily one poster who seems to feel he was wronged somehow. He made it a personal vendetta to get Ron's listings removed, and continues to insist on bad mouthing him and calling him a "con" and implying that the TUG powers that be agreed (although to the best of my knowledge not one of them ever called what he was listing a "con", just that it did not fit what they defined as the purpose of the bargain forum).


Vendetta?  Look back on post #375 and the original thread in March, 2015.  There were no personal vendettas; there was universal agreement that the 29 crappy contracts belonged in the TUG Marketplace.  They were most denifitely NOT a "bargain.

That was the objection by all the opposing posts.  Anyone who is interested may look back on that thread and easily determine that a number of posters objected to listing the crappy, stripped accounts in the Bargain Deals Forum.  Some were quite vocal


piyooshj said:


> Originally Posted by ace2000  View Post
> Here's a query of Wyndham contracts sold on eBay recently for less than $100. Many didn't sell at all, even for a dollar.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...udlo&_udhi=100
> 
> Wow, I think moderator should move this ["FREE" Wyndham points contracts] out of "bargain deals" to some other forum "ripoff deals"







ronparise said:


> What that one guy didnt understand was my motivation.


Oh, one guy did understand about trying to pass off a cash flow problem to others with the impratur of "Bargain", and it did take a lot of explaining to the renter-friendly moderator(s) of the Bargain Deals Forum at the time, but it eventually did get kicked-up to the one guy in charge, and timeshare contracts stripped of usage for which the maintenance fees were not paid (ALL such timeshares, not just Wyndham or "Ron's") were prohibited from the Bargain Deals Forum and directed to the TUG Marketplace.  Anyone may look at the rules for the TUG Bargain Deals now and see this.

In 2017, Wyndham changed the rules to prohibit stripping future Use Years of their points and caught up with the progressive actions of TUG.

It has been 5 years.  What does it matter now?  Just let it go.


----------



## ronparise

CO skier said:


> Vendetta?  Look back on post #375 and the original thread in March, 2015.  There were no personal vendettas; there was universal agreement that the 29 crappy contracts belonged in the TUG Marketplace.  They were most denifitely NOT a "bargain.
> 
> That was the objection by all the opposing posts.  Anyone who is interested may look back on that thread and easily determine that a number of posters objected to listing the crappy, stripped accounts in the Bargain Deals Forum.  Some were quite vocal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, one guy did understand about trying to pass off a cash flow problem to others with the impratur of "Bargain", and it did take a lot of explaining to the renter-friendly moderator(s) of the Bargain Deals Forum at the time, but it eventually did get kicked-up to the one guy in charge, and timeshare contracts stripped of usage for which the maintenance fees were not paid (ALL such timeshares, not just Wyndham or "Ron's") were prohibited from the Bargain Deals Forum and directed to the TUG Marketplace.  Anyone may look at the rules for the TUG Bargain Deals now and see this.
> 
> In 2017, Wyndham changed the rules to prohibit stripping future Use Years of their points and caught up with the progressive actions of TUG.
> 
> It has been 5 years.  What does it matter now?  Just let it go.






CO skier said:


> Vendetta?  Look back on post #375 and the original thread in March, 2015.  There were no personal vendettas; there was universal agreement that the 29 crappy contracts belonged in the TUG Marketplace.  They were most denifitely NOT a "bargain.
> 
> That was the objection by all the opposing posts.  Anyone who is interested may look back on that thread and easily determine that a number of posters objected to listing the crappy, stripped accounts in the Bargain Deals Forum.  Some were quite vocal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, one guy did understand about trying to pass off a cash flow problem to others with the impratur of "Bargain", and it did take a lot of explaining to the renter-friendly moderator(s) of the Bargain Deals Forum at the time, but it eventually did get kicked-up to the one guy in charge, and timeshare contracts stripped of usage for which the maintenance fees were not paid (ALL such timeshares, not just Wyndham or "Ron's") were prohibited from the Bargain Deals Forum and directed to the TUG Marketplace.  Anyone may look at the rules for the TUG Bargain Deals now and see this.
> 
> In 2017, Wyndham changed the rules to prohibit stripping future Use Years of their points and caught up with the progressive actions of TUG.
> 
> It has been 5 years.  What does it matter now?  Just let it go.




Im happy to let it go, and I dont care what you think of me.  but as long as you continue to call me a con man I wont... Im not looking  to change your mind, only that you stop vilifying me in a public forum. And if you wont, I'll continue to respond

By the way I think what wyndham is dong regarding the transfer of stripped contracts is wrong. I dont understand why they feel its necessary  or even legal to interfere in transaction that they are not party to. The terms of a contract should be between buyer and seller


----------



## 55plus

ronparise said:


> commercial activity





			Definition: commercial activity from 28 USC § 1603(d) | LII / Legal Information Institute
		

*commercial activity*
(d) A “commercial activity” means either a regular course of commercial conduct or a particular commercial transaction or act. The commercial character of an activity shall be determined by reference to the nature of the course of conduct or particular transaction or act, rather than by reference to its purpose.


----------



## 55plus

ronparise said:


> By the way I think what wyndham is dong regarding the transfer of stripped contracts is wrong. I dont understand why they feel its necessary  or even legal to interfere in transaction that they are not party to. The terms of a contract should be between buyer and seller


I assume if the buyer of a stripped contract decides it’s not worth it anymore and walks away/defaults, then Wyndham and the HOA are stuck with a negative points balance. Since Wyndham has some skin in the game they should have some control over transaction.


----------



## Eric B

55plus said:


> I assume if the buyer of a stripped contract decides it’s not worth it anymore and walks away/defaults, then Wyndham and the HOA are stuck with a negative points balance. Since Wyndham has some skin in the game they should have some control over transaction.



The skin they have in the game is the payment of the program fees to Wyndham and the maintenance fees to the HOA.  In general, those average a total of $6 or so per 1,000 points.  My understanding of the unwritten rule they impose on transfers is that they charge $12 per 1,000 points to make up missing/stripped ones.  Not sure if they ever provide the option to prepay the fees for the points, but that would seem the more equitable approach.


----------



## rickandcindy23

CO skier said:


> Vendetta?  Look back on post #375 and the original thread in March, 2015.  There were no personal vendettas; there was universal agreement that the 29 crappy contracts belonged in the TUG Marketplace.  They were most denifitely NOT a "bargain.
> 
> That was the objection by all the opposing posts.  Anyone who is interested may look back on that thread and easily determine that a number of posters objected to listing the crappy, stripped accounts in the Bargain Deals Forum.  Some were quite vocal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, one guy did understand about trying to pass off a cash flow problem to others with the impratur of "Bargain", and it did take a lot of explaining to the renter-friendly moderator(s) of the Bargain Deals Forum at the time, but it eventually did get kicked-up to the one guy in charge, and timeshare contracts stripped of usage for which the maintenance fees were not paid (ALL such timeshares, not just Wyndham or "Ron's") were prohibited from the Bargain Deals Forum and directed to the TUG Marketplace.  Anyone may look at the rules for the TUG Bargain Deals now and see this.
> 
> In 2017, Wyndham changed the rules to prohibit stripping future Use Years of their points and caught up with the progressive actions of TUG.
> 
> It has been 5 years.  What does it matter now?  Just let it go.


What is that saying?  Oh, yeah, "One person's trash is another person's treasure."


----------



## rickandcindy23

ronparise said:


> Im happy to let it go, and I dont care what you think of me.  but as long as you continue to call me a con man I wont... Im not looking  to change your mind, only that you stop vilifying me in a public forum. And if you wont, I'll continue to respond
> 
> By the way I think what wyndham is dong regarding the transfer of stripped contracts is wrong. I dont understand why they feel its necessary  or even legal to interfere in transaction that they are not party to. The terms of a contract should be between buyer and seller


I completely agree with that.  Wyndham has no right to dictate to me what I am selling and what I am promising to a buyer.  If I sell something and it closes 12/20, I am going to have to pay fees for the entire year before at $12/ 1,000 to transfer that ownership to a new buyer?  That is not right.  That could be against Florida law, changing my contract as usage starts the next use year to the current use year.


----------



## 55plus

You have three options. They are to walk away and default, accumulate the points prior to transfer or pay the established rate of $12/1000.


----------



## rickandcindy23

55plus said:


> You have three options. They are to walk away and default, accumulate the points prior to transfer or pay the established rate of $12/1000.


Why do you not understand that the terms of my contract, should I give my points away, would be that use would start 1/1/2022, but Wyndham's rule goes against my LEGAL CONTRACT.  They have no right to do that.  There is no other company that would do that, not a single company does that except now Wyndham does.  That is another sleazy move by Wyndham.

I think Wyndham is going to shoot itself in the foot.  For every positive comment made about Wyndham, there are 10X negative ones.  And people remember the negative over the positive.


----------



## Mongoose

rickandcindy23 said:


> Why do you not understand that the terms of my contract, should I give my points away, would be that use would start 1/1/2022, but Wyndham's rule goes against my LEGAL CONTRACT.  They have no right to do that.  There is no other company that would do that, not a single company does that except now Wyndham does.  That is another sleazy move by Wyndham.
> 
> I think Wyndham is going to shoot itself in the foot.  For every positive comment made about Wyndham, there are 10X negative ones.  And people remember the negative over the positive.
> 
> 
> View attachment 38437


A little different, but MVC has some ridiculous resale activation fees which basically charges twice for the same contract.


----------



## 55plus

rickandcindy23 said:


> Why do you not understand that the terms of my contract, should I give my points away, would be that use would start 1/1/2022, but Wyndham's rule goes against my LEGAL CONTRACT.  They have no right to do that.  There is no other company that would do that, not a single company does that except now Wyndham does.  That is another sleazy move by Wyndham.
> 
> I think Wyndham is going to shoot itself in the foot.  For every positive comment made about Wyndham, there are 10X negative ones.  And people remember the negative over the positive.
> 
> 
> View attachment 38437


I think Wyndham is protecting their interest and that of the HOAs. I don't think Wyndham is worried about their reputation. If they were they would put a stop to some of the sales tactics.


----------



## Roger830

rickandcindy23 said:


> I completely agree with that.  Wyndham has no right to dictate to me what I am selling and what I am promising to a buyer.  If I sell something and it closes 12/20, I am going to have to pay fees for the entire year before at $12/ 1,000 to transfer that ownership to a new buyer?  That is not right.  That could be against Florida law, changing my contract as *usage starts the next use year to the current use year.*



Usage starts next year is a good point and Florida can be tough on the timeshare industry.

If you have a fixed week, the manual specifies the the mf being paid each month is for the following year. The udi mf is for current year.

I have a fixed week 7 in Florida so I assume that if I transfer it after February, I actually prepaid some of the followings mf and owe nothing.

It's my understanding from prior posts here, when using Wyndham's Certified Exit, member's weren't charged mf for the current use year.


----------



## Captain Morgan

CO skier said:


> Wyndham's definition of megarenters and Wyndham's intentions were more explicit in the Klebba lawsuit about 10 years later. Wyndham clearly recognized how "regular, non-VIP owners are adversely affected by Megarenters":
> 
> "*Megarenters*
> 
> Owners who are operating a commercial vacation rental business
> 
> A Megarenter is an Owner who amasses millions of points in their account for the purpose of booking large amounts of inventory so that they can rent out the units for a profit. They are conducting a business by using our business!
> 
> 
> *Why Megarenters Are A Problem*
> 
> * Megarenters tie up inventory during peak times
> 
> * Megarenters' cancelled reservations often result in unused inventory
> 
> * Our regular, non-VIP Owners are adversely affected by Megarenters
> 
> * WVO’s Anti-Megarenter policies have an adverse affect on non-Megarenter Owners.
> 
> 
> 3. We have identified four opportunities aimed at getting owners to resorts they want more often and more efficiently. Each opportunity has a number of initiatives necessary to capture the value.
> 
> B. Get owners to engage within club rules to access the vacations they want
> * Limit the use of loopholes by megarenters (e.g., cancel-rebook) that take inventory out of the system unfairly and reduce discretion in applying rules (e.g., overrides) where appropriate.
> 
> *Proactively manage inventory resulting from cancellations and no-shows*
> 
> * Create waitlists to fill canceled rooms
> * Tighten rules on cancellations, in line with industry norms for condo and home rentals, to address serial cancellers
> * Overbook owner stays based on history"


----------



## Captain Morgan

Its clear you're a Wyndham Employee! You say Mega Renters are taking away dates for other owners at Peak times, right? So, Mr Wyndham Employee, please tell me why Wyndham Resorts is power renting on VRBO at a $1000 per night in Newport, RI. Wyndham Resorts has 100's of ads? Also, for the majority of the summer, VRBO turned off Instant Book distribution to Expedia so  Wyndham Owners ads were not featured but Developer ads were. Wyndham Resorts say they want to be more fair to their owners and give them access to Prime Dates but Wyndham is taking owner inventory and making high profits renting on Booking.com.VRBO & Expedia with the so called Prime Dates they say they want to open up for Wyndham Owners. Currently, Wyndham has at least 6 ads for every weekend in Sept and this is not Extra Holidays! By the way, nice job taking down all the Newport ads that has more than 100 stay reviews then going back and building brand new ads to make it look like they are all new ads on VRBO.  Currently, Wyndham has an ad up on VRBO for MLK, Jan 14th to 17th for $799 a night, they very holiday that included on the restricted list sent out to Wyndham Owners


----------



## am1

rickandcindy23 said:


> Why do you not understand that the terms of my contract, should I give my points away, would be that use would start 1/1/2022, but Wyndham's rule goes against my LEGAL CONTRACT.  They have no right to do that.  There is no other company that would do that, not a single company does that except now Wyndham does.  That is another sleazy move by Wyndham.
> 
> I think Wyndham is going to shoot itself in the foot.  For every positive comment made about Wyndham, there are 10X negative ones.  And people remember the negative over the positive.
> 
> 
> View attachment 38437


It ensures the new owner is less likely to default and that they are not getting stiffed on the contract.  By mistake or unpurpose. But of course an owner should be able to specify transfer after 12/31.Or whatever the start of the new use year is.


----------



## dgalati

ronparise said:


> Im happy to let it go, and I dont care what you think of me.  but as long as you continue to call me a con man I wont... Im not looking  to change your mind, only that you stop vilifying me in a public forum. And if you wont, I'll continue to respond
> 
> By the way I think what wyndham is doIng regarding the transfer of stripped contracts is wrong. I don't understand why they feel its necessary  or even legal to interfere in transaction that they are not party to. The terms of a contract should be between buyer and seller


I feel the same way but look who liked this comment @Braindead . The same guy who vilified me for selling contracts with no current use year points. SMH LOL!


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> I assume if the buyer of a stripped contract decides it’s not worth it anymore and walks away/defaults, then Wyndham and the HOA are stuck with a negative points balance. Since Wyndham has some skin in the game they should have some control over transaction.


No different then If a owner buys developer at a inflated price of $145/1000 and they decide to walk away after using all points current and future years. This would also create a negative balance? Anyone can default if its a stripped or a developer bought contract.


----------



## 55plus

Both are wrong. I'd consider it to be theft. I'm thinking Wyndham can go after an owner if they want. Maybe to make an example out of them. There isn't an owner who can afford to fight Wyndham in court. It'd be less expense to pay $12/1000 than go through litigation. All it takes is a default judgement to ruin an owner. Since points were intentionally stripped is there a possibility of fraud? I don't know.


----------



## Eric B

55plus said:


> Both are wrong. I'd consider it to be theft. I'm thinking Wyndham can go after an owner if they want. Maybe to make an example out of them. There isn't an owner who can afford to fight Wyndham in court. It'd be less expense to pay $12/1000 than go through litigation. All it takes is a default judgement to ruin an owner. Since points were intentionally stripped is there a possibility of fraud? I don't know.



Clearly.


----------



## chapjim

55plus said:


> Both are wrong. I'd consider it to be theft. I'm thinking Wyndham can go after an owner if they want. Maybe to make an example out of them. There isn't an owner who can afford to fight Wyndham in court. It'd be less expense to pay $12/1000 than go through litigation. All it takes is a default judgement to ruin an owner. Since points were intentionally stripped is there a possibility of fraud? I don't know.



Fraud is avoided by full disclosure.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> Both are wrong. I'd consider it to be theft. I'm thinking Wyndham can go after an owner if they want. Maybe to make an example out of them. There isn't an owner who can afford to fight Wyndham in court. It'd be less expense to pay $12/1000 than go through litigation. All it takes is a default judgement to ruin an owner. Since points were intentionally stripped is there a possibility of fraud? I don't know.


Wyndham did let owners give back ownership after using current use year points. They didn't consider it a theft as long as the received at $0 cost.


----------



## 55plus

Under new management. That was then, this is now.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> Under new management. That was then, this is now.


Sounds like Wyndham is working the system and getting creative!


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

Captain Morgan said:


> Its clear you're a Wyndham Employee! You say Mega Renters are taking away dates for other owners at Peak times, right? So, Mr Wyndham Employee, please tell me why Wyndham Resorts is .....



Captain Morgan - Unless you can prove @CO skier works for Wyndham this unnecessary name calling ; and In my opinion that portion of your post should be editing

I have likely read hundreds of posts by @CO skier  on TUG. He has been very consistent ,as a Wyndham owner  ,in his viewpoint and thought process regarding Mega Renters of Wyndham units. I have read nothing that would indicate his employment status.


----------



## troy12n

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Captain Morgan - Unless you can prove @CO skier works for Wyndham this unnecessary name calling ; and In my opinion that portion of your post should be editing
> 
> I have likely read hundreds of @CO skier ' s post on TUG. He has been very consistent ,as a Wyndham owner  ,in his viewpoint and thought process regarding Mega Renters of Wyndham units. I have read nothing that would indicate his employment status.



A couple other "guests" have shown up here, who clearly have no vested interest other than stirring the pot, wonder why they aren't getting ridiculed...


----------



## rapmarks

I am going off topic 
There was a woman who rented pompano beach Wyndham. I haven’t seen her posts for a long time. I think it was vacation hopeful 
Any idea about her?


----------



## Mongoose

Captain Morgan said:


> Its clear you're a Wyndham Employee! You say Mega Renters are taking away dates for other owners at Peak times, right? So, Mr Wyndham Employee, please tell me why Wyndham Resorts is power renting on VRBO at a $1000 per night in Newport, RI. Wyndham Resorts has 100's of ads? Also, for the majority of the summer, VRBO turned off Instant Book distribution to Expedia so  Wyndham Owners ads were not featured but Developer ads were. Wyndham Resorts say they want to be more fair to their owners and give them access to Prime Dates but Wyndham is taking owner inventory and making high profits renting on Booking.com.VRBO & Expedia with the so called Prime Dates they say they want to open up for Wyndham Owners. Currently, Wyndham has at least 6 ads for every weekend in Sept and this is not Extra Holidays! By the way, nice job taking down all the Newport ads that has more than 100 stay reviews then going back and building brand new ads to make it look like they are all new ads on VRBO.  Currently, Wyndham has an ad up on VRBO for MLK, Jan 14th to 17th for $799 a night, they very holiday that included on the restricted list sent out to Wyndham Owners


@Captain Morgan Take your trolling to Reddit!


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

rapmarks said:


> I am going off topic
> There was a woman who rented pompano beach Wyndham. I haven’t seen her posts for a long time. I think it was vacation hopeful
> Any idea about her?


If you check her profile - Linda /vacation hopeful was on TUG last month & last posted in 2020.
She (did / does)  own fixed weeks  at I think Sea Garden and a non Wyndham Pompano resort. 
as I recall she (was / had) edited her Wyndham ownerships .


----------



## rapmarks

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> If you check her profile - Linda /vacation hopeful was on TUG last month & last posted in 2020.
> She (did / does)  own fixed weeks  at I think Sea Garden and a non Wyndham Pompano resort.
> as I recall she (was / had) edited her Wyndham ownerships .


Thanks bee rented from her once  was wondering about her. It was the Wyndham on the beach across from Santa Barbara


----------



## HitchHiker71

Over the course of the now several MR related threads - on several occasions folks have asked for source documentation with respect to various points made.  I did some due diligence today and dug up a subset of the contractual clauses that address several of the requests.  Since I'm a CWA developer owner - I only have access to CWA ownership contracts - so a subset of these screenshots will have been sourced from CWA specific documentation. I cannot account for comparative clauses from CWS contracts having never purchased a CWS developer contract.  Please note this is only a partial collection of clauses - there's other documentation that I still need to dig up - but this is a decent start.  Heads up - this will be a long post with all of the screenshots - so here goes.

*Restrictions Upon Sale, Lease or Transfer & Personal Use and Enjoyment Clause:*





The Consent clause clearly states that the Association must approve any ownership transfer.  For those who say it's not the business of Wyndham when transferring ownership - including resales - the legal contract says otherwise.

*Transferability:



*

More contractual transfer requirements and a restatement of the consent.

*Transfer of Ownerships and Special Features:



*

Mention of ROFR provided its present in the purchase agreement (which varies IME).

*Non-Monetary Failure (to comply)



*

This is an important clause - as I believe this clause applies to any violation of Club Regulations - such as the cease and desist letters recently received by some owners who are running commercial businesses. If you received written notice via a cease and desist letter - note the information in this clause. 

*Rights/Privileges to be Suspended:



*

Details on the scope of Rights suspensions.

*Residential Use Only:



*

This clause is important as there were some who seemed to be under the impression that the commercial use restrictions clauses somehow meant that you couldn't run a business out of the timeshare location.  Not true - this point is dealt with under this legal clause and section.  They are two very different things.

*Termination of the Trust (CWA)



*

Not exactly related to anything we're discussing - but I found it noteworthy what I've highlighted in red in this screenshot with respect to the entirety of the CWA trust - it expires on 12/31/2025.  Yes it can be renewed - but it can also be terminated.  That's four years out from now.  A lot can change in four years.

*Withdrawal of Property Interests



*

During our travels a few folks asked how could Wyndham remove inventory from the trusts.  The highlighted section above defines exactly how this process works.

*Wyndham Use 



*

The usage restrictions Wyndham places upon itself for any/all CWA reservations.


----------



## snickers104

Ok...so if CWA is terminated....what happens to my ownership in the trust?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


----------



## Cyrus24

\



for sale to purchasers for personal use only and should not be purchased .......  with any expectation of receiving rental income.....

This seems to cover sales weasels who repeatedly sell the expectation of receiving rental income via personal action or via EH.  It's hard to prove that anyone purchased with the expectation of receiving rental income.  

Did I miss the no commercial rental business clause????


----------



## 55plus

The no commercial activity is spelled out in the directory.


----------



## HitchHiker71

55plus said:


> The no commercial activity is spelled out in the directory.



It is elsewhere as well - I just haven't gotten that far yet.  I do have a day job after all.


----------



## Cyrus24

55plus said:


> The no commercial activity is spelled out in the directory.


I don't believe a directory has the same oomph that a contract has.  And, it's a pretty weak statement.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Cyrus24 said:


> I don't believe a directory has the same oomph that a contract has. And, it's a pretty weak statement.
> 
> View attachment 38533



It’s a general statement that is likely intentionally broad for legal purposes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CO skier

Cyrus24 said:


> I don't believe a directory has the same oomph that a contract has.  And, it's a pretty weak statement.
> 
> View attachment 38533


The judge in the Sirmon v. Wyndham lawsuit thought the membership directory had plenty of "oomph."

"Plaintiffs initially argue that *the disclaimer should be discredited because it is inconspicuously buried within the membership directories*. The disclaimer was perhaps not as openly visible as written statements that other courts have found sufficiently clear to trigger the statute of limitations. ... However, while the disclaimer in the membership directories was arguably more discrete than written statements discussed in other cases, *the Court is unconvinced that this fact alone renders it invalid*."


No plaintiff would ever bring up the statement, for obvious reasons.  It will be interesting to see if Wyndham brings it up in the Klebba and any other similar lawsuits, or if they defend the cases on other merits.


----------



## CO skier

Captain Morgan said:


> Its clear you're a Wyndham Employee! You say Mega Renters are taking away dates for other owners at Peak times, right? So, Mr Wyndham Employee, please tell me why Wyndham Resorts is power renting on VRBO at a $1000 per night in Newport, RI. Wyndham Resorts has 100's of ads? Also, for the majority of the summer, VRBO turned off Instant Book distribution to Expedia so  Wyndham Owners ads were not featured but Developer ads were. Wyndham Resorts say they want to be more fair to their owners and give them access to Prime Dates but Wyndham is taking owner inventory and making high profits renting on Booking.com.VRBO & Expedia with the so called Prime Dates they say they want to open up for Wyndham Owners. Currently, Wyndham has at least 6 ads for every weekend in Sept and this is not Extra Holidays! By the way, nice job taking down all the Newport ads that has more than 100 stay reviews then going back and building brand new ads to make it look like they are all new ads on VRBO.  Currently, Wyndham has an ad up on VRBO for MLK, Jan 14th to 17th for $799 a night, they very holiday that included on the restricted list sent out to Wyndham Owners


In 2016, some people thought I was a Wyndham attorney!    No one stated why they thought so.  I took it as a compliment earned by perceptive posts.   As in 2016, you provide nothing to substantiate your clairvoyance.

Sorry to disappoint, but I am not and never have been a Wyndham Employee in any capacity, so I can answer only your first question, "Yes, I agree with Wyndham's position that Mega Renters are taking away dates for other owners at Peak times."    A number of other owners see this, too.  Does this make all of us suspect as Wyndham Employees, or are we owners who see things for what they are?

There are a couple of posters in this and other threads who have direct contact with Wyndham Employees, to the benefit of TUG and possibly Facebook readers, who also understand Wyndham's position on Mega Renters and try to explain it with information from the source.


----------



## dgalati

Cyrus24 said:


> I don't believe a directory has the same oomph that a contract has.  And, it's a pretty weak statement.
> 
> View attachment 38533


If Wyndham wanted to enforce it or not they should have.


----------



## RENTER

I have been reading all your posts and I have a few responses. But first let me introduce myself. I guess I am one of those mega renters other owners hate. Except I do not have 50 million points. Less then 5 million.  Yes I was one of those who took advantage of the resales being attached to my VIP points and rented out almost all my points to help pay for my loan and maintenance fees. 

At the same time, I was creation a winning situation for all involved. Myself, other owners and Wyndham. First of all, I generally waited until 60 days to book and took what other owners left for me. That is so I can take advantage of the discounts. So I did not prevent those who planned ahead from taking vacations. 

Second, I shared my discounts with other owners, renting my points to them at the discounted prices. So if someone did not have enough points for a weeks vacation, I would tell them use their points for the cheaper midweek and use my discounts for the weekends.

Third, I would introduce hundreds of people renting from me to the Wyndham system and recommend Wyndham to them because Wyndham allowed me the opportunity to do this with their system. Because I generally booked weekends I used a lot of guest passes which brought in additional thousands to Wyndham because of the $99 I paid. I normally would not recommend timeshares but this system works for the little guy who wants to hustle.  

But now I am so disgusted with the last minute changes like that occurred on 6/18 with the guest pass bans and the rule changes without people in, I will no longer recommend this company. I am assuming my day is coming and my account will be frozen. I do not care anymore. I will let them buy me out or hire a lawyer to fight them if they choose not to. 

This change of opinion on Wyndham is a sad change of events because I had put in my will to leave my points to the Make A Wish Foundation and an Animal Rescue Group. 

Now my reply to your comments. Many of the rent haters keep bringing up the word commercial. The IRS does not consider renting a commercial business. Home Owner Associations have tried to shut down short term rental sites by declaring them a commercial business. They constantly lose because the courts have declared them a residential rental.  The State of Texas has banned Home Owner Associations from banning short term rentals because they are not a commercial business.  A commercial business is if someone uses the room for paid massage, parties, filming and stuff like that.

Then there was the contract and it was argued that the contract prevents renting. No it does not. The contract says IT SHOULD be consider for personal use and not business use. It does not SAY IT MUST. 

This next point is the main point I am going to use, if Wyndham closed me down and does not offer to buy me out. The rent haters say that Wyndham says you cannot rent. I will gladly take my chances with a jury who I believe will find it unfair that while Wyndham will not allow me to rent, they will allow me to rent thru them as long as I pay them a 40% commission. 

Now for you rent haters who think you are going to have more availability. Sadly you will find out your wrong. I have already adapted to the changes and it is not helping you at all.  As I said before I generally booked 60 days out. Now I can no longer get discount on resale points, it makes no sense for me to wait and now I am booking a year ahead of time. Also as I mentioned before, I generally book weekends.  I assume others like me are doing the same, so that will be less full weeks for non renter owners to book. 

Thus my booking early, I will have no more discount points to share with other owners.  Thus my using more points, I will have the need for less guest passes to use so less paying $99 to Wyndham. 

As for those rent haters who think they are winning because mega-renters are dumping their properties, think again. They are dumping their resorts that have high maintenance fees. No longer worth having them if you cannot get the discount on them. So if you own at one of those resorts with high maintenance fees, you will have very few buyers because everyone wants the low maintenance fee resorts. With low maintenance fees, you do not need discounts. 

Personally I have not been hurt by these new rules. I live near several popular resorts so the guest pass bans have no effect on me. Since I no longer use the discounts, I raised my prices. In fact I was even thinking about buying more resale points to rent out a year ahead of time. But I want no more of Wyndham.

I enjoyed my time being in this system. I was able to meet many interesting people including people from all over the world who rented from me. But now I want out and hope they send me a buy out letter. I was able to grab some free vacation time while helping others have low cost vacations using those discounts. 

I am tired of Wyndham changing the rules and I can no longer trust them. I am tired of hearing other owners whine they cannot get into Myrtle Beach on June  15th for July 10th. I am tired of the whining from jealous people who think that those who learned the rules and worked them to their advantage, cheated them out of a vacation.

I am content with the Red Roof Inn where I can bring my dog. I would have never bought into this system if not for us being allowed to rent.


----------



## CO skier

RENTER said:


> I have been reading all your posts and I have a few responses.


There were similar cathartic posts in 2017 with the introduction of the automatic upgrades and Points Deposit replacement to the Credit Pool.  Venting -- just one more benefit to TUG.

It certainly fell on deaf ears with Wyndham in 2017, which is where it matters.


----------



## Mongoose

RENTER said:


> I have been reading all your posts and I have a few responses. But first let me introduce myself. I guess I am one of those mega renters other owners hate. Except I do not have 50 million points. Less then 5 million.  Yes I was one of those who took advantage of the resales being attached to my VIP points and rented out almost all my points to help pay for my loan and maintenance fees.
> 
> At the same time, I was creation a winning situation for all involved. Myself, other owners and Wyndham. First of all, I generally waited until 60 days to book and took what other owners left for me. That is so I can take advantage of the discounts. So I did not prevent those who planned ahead from taking vacations.
> 
> Second, I shared my discounts with other owners, renting my points to them at the discounted prices. So if someone did not have enough points for a weeks vacation, I would tell them use their points for the cheaper midweek and use my discounts for the weekends.
> 
> Third, I would introduce hundreds of people renting from me to the Wyndham system and recommend Wyndham to them because Wyndham allowed me the opportunity to do this with their system. Because I generally booked weekends I used a lot of guest passes which brought in additional thousands to Wyndham because of the $99 I paid. I normally would not recommend timeshares but this system works for the little guy who wants to hustle.
> 
> But now I am so disgusted with the last minute changes like that occurred on 6/18 with the guest pass bans and the rule changes without people in, I will no longer recommend this company. I am assuming my day is coming and my account will be frozen. I do not care anymore. I will let them buy me out or hire a lawyer to fight them if they choose not to.
> 
> This change of opinion on Wyndham is a sad change of events because I had put in my will to leave my points to the Make A Wish Foundation and an Animal Rescue Group.
> 
> Now my reply to your comments. Many of the rent haters keep bringing up the word commercial. The IRS does not consider renting a commercial business. Home Owner Associations have tried to shut down short term rental sites by declaring them a commercial business. They constantly lose because the courts have declared them a residential rental.  The State of Texas has banned Home Owner Associations from banning short term rentals because they are not a commercial business.  A commercial business is if someone uses the room for paid massage, parties, filming and stuff like that.
> 
> Then there was the contract and it was argued that the contract prevents renting. No it does not. The contract says IT SHOULD be consider for personal use and not business use. It does not SAY IT MUST.
> 
> This next point is the main point I am going to use, if Wyndham closed me down and does not offer to buy me out. The rent haters say that Wyndham says you cannot rent. I will gladly take my chances with a jury who I believe will find it unfair that while Wyndham will not allow me to rent, they will allow me to rent thru them as long as I pay them a 40% commission.
> 
> Now for you rent haters who think you are going to have more availability. Sadly you will find out your wrong. I have already adapted to the changes and it is not helping you at all.  As I said before I generally booked 60 days out. Now I can no longer get discount on resale points, it makes no sense for me to wait and now I am booking a year ahead of time. Also as I mentioned before, I generally book weekends.  I assume others like me are doing the same, so that will be less full weeks for non renter owners to book.
> 
> Thus my booking early, I will have no more discount points to share with other owners.  Thus my using more points, I will have the need for less guest passes to use so less paying $99 to Wyndham.
> 
> As for those rent haters who think they are winning because mega-renters are dumping their properties, think again. They are dumping their resorts that have high maintenance fees. No longer worth having them if you cannot get the discount on them. So if you own at one of those resorts with high maintenance fees, you will have very few buyers because everyone wants the low maintenance fee resorts. With low maintenance fees, you do not need discounts.
> 
> Personally I have not been hurt by these new rules. I live near several popular resorts so the guest pass bans have no effect on me. Since I no longer use the discounts, I raised my prices. In fact I was even thinking about buying more resale points to rent out a year ahead of time. But I want no more of Wyndham.
> 
> I enjoyed my time being in this system. I was able to meet many interesting people including people from all over the world who rented from me. But now I want out and hope they send me a buy out letter. I was able to grab some free vacation time while helping others have low cost vacations using those discounts.
> 
> I am tired of Wyndham changing the rules and I can no longer trust them. I am tired of hearing other owners whine they cannot get into Myrtle Beach on June  15th for July 10th. I am tired of the whining from jealous people who think that those who learned the rules and worked them to their advantage, cheated them out of a vacation.
> 
> I am content with the Red Roof Inn where I can bring my dog. I would have never bought into this system if not for us being allowed to rent.


Great first post.  I lost count of your use of “I” after 30.


----------



## TravelTime

troy12n said:


> Yeah, our legislature and governors have been a complete joke since the early 2000's... what we need is a heavy "migration tax" for anyone who moves here from out of state



How about just raising the hotel taxes so tourists support more of Florida’s needs?


----------



## tschwa2

@RENTER, charities would not have wanted your points unless you were also going to will them the MF"s for 10+ years along with the points.  

Things change and if you don't feel like dealing with it then now would be a good time to get out.  Glad you have the RedRoof to look forward to.


----------



## troy12n

TravelTime said:


> How about just raising the hotel taxes so tourists support more of Florida’s needs?



It's already pretty high... it's 6% on top of sales tax, which varies between 6-7% depending on county.


----------



## TravelTime

troy12n said:


> It's already pretty high... it's 6% on top of sales tax, which varies between 6-7% depending on county.



That does not sound high to me. 6% plus 6% to 7% sales tax, which everyone pays, is really low. Really, Florida needs a state tax.


----------



## 55plus

RENTER said:


> I have been reading all your posts and I have a few responses. But first let me introduce myself. I guess I am one of those mega renters other owners hate. Except I do not have 50 million points. Less then 5 million.  Yes I was one of those who took advantage of the resales being attached to my VIP points and rented out almost all my points to help pay for my loan and maintenance fees.
> 
> At the same time, I was creation a winning situation for all involved. Myself, other owners and Wyndham. First of all, I generally waited until 60 days to book and took what other owners left for me. That is so I can take advantage of the discounts. So I did not prevent those who planned ahead from taking vacations.
> 
> Second, I shared my discounts with other owners, renting my points to them at the discounted prices. So if someone did not have enough points for a weeks vacation, I would tell them use their points for the cheaper midweek and use my discounts for the weekends.
> 
> Third, I would introduce hundreds of people renting from me to the Wyndham system and recommend Wyndham to them because Wyndham allowed me the opportunity to do this with their system. Because I generally booked weekends I used a lot of guest passes which brought in additional thousands to Wyndham because of the $99 I paid. I normally would not recommend timeshares but this system works for the little guy who wants to hustle.
> 
> But now I am so disgusted with the last minute changes like that occurred on 6/18 with the guest pass bans and the rule changes without people in, I will no longer recommend this company. I am assuming my day is coming and my account will be frozen. I do not care anymore. I will let them buy me out or hire a lawyer to fight them if they choose not to.
> 
> This change of opinion on Wyndham is a sad change of events because I had put in my will to leave my points to the Make A Wish Foundation and an Animal Rescue Group.
> 
> Now my reply to your comments. Many of the rent haters keep bringing up the word commercial. The IRS does not consider renting a commercial business. Home Owner Associations have tried to shut down short term rental sites by declaring them a commercial business. They constantly lose because the courts have declared them a residential rental.  The State of Texas has banned Home Owner Associations from banning short term rentals because they are not a commercial business.  A commercial business is if someone uses the room for paid massage, parties, filming and stuff like that.
> 
> Then there was the contract and it was argued that the contract prevents renting. No it does not. The contract says IT SHOULD be consider for personal use and not business use. It does not SAY IT MUST.
> 
> This next point is the main point I am going to use, if Wyndham closed me down and does not offer to buy me out. The rent haters say that Wyndham says you cannot rent. I will gladly take my chances with a jury who I believe will find it unfair that while Wyndham will not allow me to rent, they will allow me to rent thru them as long as I pay them a 40% commission.
> 
> Now for you rent haters who think you are going to have more availability. Sadly you will find out your wrong. I have already adapted to the changes and it is not helping you at all.  As I said before I generally booked 60 days out. Now I can no longer get discount on resale points, it makes no sense for me to wait and now I am booking a year ahead of time. Also as I mentioned before, I generally book weekends.  I assume others like me are doing the same, so that will be less full weeks for non renter owners to book.
> 
> Thus my booking early, I will have no more discount points to share with other owners.  Thus my using more points, I will have the need for less guest passes to use so less paying $99 to Wyndham.
> 
> As for those rent haters who think they are winning because mega-renters are dumping their properties, think again. They are dumping their resorts that have high maintenance fees. No longer worth having them if you cannot get the discount on them. So if you own at one of those resorts with high maintenance fees, you will have very few buyers because everyone wants the low maintenance fee resorts. With low maintenance fees, you do not need discounts.
> 
> Personally I have not been hurt by these new rules. I live near several popular resorts so the guest pass bans have no effect on me. Since I no longer use the discounts, I raised my prices. In fact I was even thinking about buying more resale points to rent out a year ahead of time. But I want no more of Wyndham.
> 
> I enjoyed my time being in this system. I was able to meet many interesting people including people from all over the world who rented from me. But now I want out and hope they send me a buy out letter. I was able to grab some free vacation time while helping others have low cost vacations using those discounts.
> 
> I am tired of Wyndham changing the rules and I can no longer trust them. I am tired of hearing other owners whine they cannot get into Myrtle Beach on June  15th for July 10th. I am tired of the whining from jealous people who think that those who learned the rules and worked them to their advantage, cheated them out of a vacation.
> 
> I am content with the Red Roof Inn where I can bring my dog. I would have never bought into this system if not for us being allowed to rent.



Dear Renter, It appears you are whining out of both sides of your mouth. Wyndham is not only about you and your so called, rental business. Wyndham is about the people who bought in for personal use and family vacations. Get out or stay in, who cares. I don't. I'm just happy personal commerce on the backs owners' vacation opportunities has ended. You have basically two choices, cut you loses and getting out or enjoy what Wyndham has to offer in term of personal and family vacations. If it's about the money, get a job, a job that doesn't take reservations opportunities away from owners for personal greed and commerce.

Wyndham won't buy you out nor will you win on court. Why would they buy you out? You bought in and helped create the mess you're in. Wyndham won't bail you out so suck it up and bail yourself out. And for the courts, your case will be dismissed before it gets to a jury and they'll bleed you dry in attorney fees and court costs, that is if you can find an attorney that wants not lose on court.

There is a balance in the university - ying and yang. Some win, some lose. It all washes out and rights itself in the end. You are one of those that have been winning. Now it's our turn. We'll win in terms of more availability at prime locations during high demand timeframes for personal use.


----------



## Captain Morgan

Wyndham's position that Mega Renters are taking away dates for other owners at Peak times! The real truth is, Wyndham got together with Expedia & VRBO & started a pilot program to rent Developer Inventory. Generally, Wyndham only rents delinquent inventory, generally! Wyndham is now putting 5 ads or more on the first page of VRBO and doing volume and I can tell you from my point of view, its way more than delinquent inventory! Wyndham will be taking all the inventory on these Peak Times that they say, that they want owners to utilize that they're supposedly taking away from Mega Renters. Also when you deposit your dates into Extra Holidays, it can be rented on Booking.com, Expedia, etc and the other sites are pilfering one night stays to add on days on an existing renters dates and overselling the resorts across the map. If you think more dates will be open with the elimination of Mega Renters, you're sadly mistaken. Wyndham loves to say Mega Renters are the cause of everything and I am sure they will continue to blame Mega Renters! Also, Wyndham Favors what they call a a paying customers first at all resorts, that's the renter who paid through Extra Holidays,Booking.com & Expedia! You can read these forums and I am sure some deem it as great information but most is not even close to the truth of what's going on. I also feel it's unfair to take shots at these Mega Renters! Mega Renters are Entrepreneurs. An owner is an owner in my eyes and if some of these Owners were smart enough to make a business out of their portfolio, I think its great! After all, they were created by the very beast that is trying to shut them down now, Wyndham Resorts!


----------



## Mongoose

Captain Morgan said:


> Wyndham's position that Mega Renters are taking away dates for other owners at Peak times! The real truth is, Wyndham got together with Expedia & VRBO & started a pilot program to rent Developer Inventory. Generally, Wyndham only rents delinquent inventory, generally! Wyndham is now putting 5 ads or more on the first page of VRBO and doing volume and I can tell you from my point of view, its way more than delinquent inventory! Wyndham will be taking all the inventory on these Peak Times that they say, that they want owners to utilize that they're supposedly taking away from Mega Renters. Also when you deposit your dates into Extra Holidays, it can be rented on Booking.com, Expedia, etc and the other sites are pilfering one night stays to add on days on an existing renters dates and overselling the resorts across the map. If you think more dates will be open with the elimination of Mega Renters, you're sadly mistaken. Wyndham loves to say Mega Renters are the cause of everything and I am sure they will continue to blame Mega Renters! Also, Wyndham Favors what they call a a paying customers first at all resorts, that's the renter who paid through Extra Holidays,Booking.com & Expedia! You can read these forums and I am sure some deem it as great information but most is not even close to the truth of what's going on. I also feel it's unfair to take shots at these Mega Renters! Mega Renters are Entrepreneurs. An owner is an owner in my eyes and if some of these Owners were smart enough to make a business out of their portfolio, I think its great! After all, they were created by the very beast that is trying to shut them down now, Wyndham Resorts!


 An owner is an owner if they are using the product for themselves, friends and family.  They become a competetor when they commericalize it.  Wyndham specifically states that their product is not for commerical use of owners.


----------



## Captain Morgan

Wyndham is just pissed because not matter what program they put in place, they get beat!


----------



## 55plus

Captain Morgan said:


> Wyndham's position that Mega Renters are taking away dates for other owners at Peak times! The real truth is, Wyndham got together with Expedia & VRBO & started a pilot program to rent Developer Inventory. Generally, Wyndham only rents delinquent inventory, generally! Wyndham is now putting 5 ads or more on the first page of VRBO and doing volume and I can tell you from my point of view, its way more than delinquent inventory! Wyndham will be taking all the inventory on these Peak Times that they say, that they want owners to utilize that they're supposedly taking away from Mega Renters. Also when you deposit your dates into Extra Holidays, it can be rented on Booking.com, Expedia, etc and the other sites are pilfering one night stays to add on days on an existing renters dates and overselling the resorts across the map. If you think more dates will be open with the elimination of Mega Renters, you're sadly mistaken. Wyndham loves to say Mega Renters are the cause of everything and I am sure they will continue to blame Mega Renters! Also, Wyndham Favors what they call a a paying customers first at all resorts, that's the renter who paid through Extra Holidays,Booking.com & Expedia! You can read these forums and I am sure some deem it as great information but most is not even close to the truth of what's going on. I also feel it's unfair to take shots at these Mega Renters! Mega Renters are Entrepreneurs. An owner is an owner in my eyes and if some of these Owners were smart enough to make a business out of their portfolio, I think its great! After all, they were created by the very beast that is trying to shut them down now, Wyndham Resorts!





Captain Morgan said:


> Wyndham is just pissed because not matter what program they put in place, they get beat!


I could write a dissertation on how wrong you are on many levels, but I won't. I just state, you are wrong on many levels. And most importantly, the party is over.


----------



## paxsarah

RENTER said:


> I guess I am one of those mega renters other owners hate. Except I do not have 50 million points. Less then 5 million


Probably not, then.


RENTER said:


> I would have never bought into this system if not for us being allowed to rent.


If you knew enough before purchasing to know you'd be able to rent, then you should have known enough before purchasing to know Wyndham controls the rules.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> I could write a dissertation on how wrong you are on many levels, but I won't. I just state, you are wrong on many levels. And most importantly, the party is over.


It was all fun and games until the lights came on an they yelled "LAST CALL"


----------



## troy12n

TravelTime said:


> That does not sound high to me. 6% plus 6% to 7% sales tax, which everyone pays, is really low. Really, Florida needs a state tax.



No we dont, we are just fine with you tourists paying it...


----------



## Lisa P

TravelTime said:


> Really, Florida needs a state tax.



 ...where does this idea come from??? Oh, yes, now I see... from California. 

Seriously, though, I doubt most Floridians want more taxes. They're mostly transplants, many are on a fixed income (i.e., retired voters), and many travel within the state regularly. So even a higher "tourist tax" would impact them.
_(sorry, I know, off-topic)_


----------



## TravelTime

Lisa P said:


> ...where does this idea come from??? Oh, yes, now I see... from California.
> 
> Seriously, though, I doubt most Floridians want more taxes. They're mostly transplants, many are on a fixed income (i.e., retired voters), and many travel within the state regularly. So even a higher "tourist tax" would impact them.
> _(sorry, I know, off-topic)_



I am anti-taxes and want a slimmed down government. I do not like the California tax system at all and wish I could convince my husband to move somewhere else. I think it is totally unfair that Californians pay up to 13% in state income tax while Floridians pay nothing. All I hear is Floridians whining about not getting services, too many tourists, housing getting too expensive, etc. Well, many of these problems would be solved if FL had a state income tax because more things could be done to help low income families and more money could support the infrastructure. Also fewer tourists would move to FL if there were a state income tax. A big reason people move to Florida is to avoid taxes. I wish there was only a federal income tax that was slightly higher, and the federal goverment could distribute funding to the states according to population. Alternatively, we could just have a common state tax at the same rate for all states and they could collect it. Perhaps 5% nationwide for state tax.


----------



## Roger830

TravelTime said:


> I am anti-taxes and want a slimmed down government. I do not like the California tax system at all and wish I could convince my husband to move somewhere else. I think it is totally unfair that Californians pay up to 13% in state income tax while Floridians pay nothing. All I hear is Floridians whining about not getting services, too many tourists, housing getting too expensive, etc. Well, *many of these problems would be solved if FL had a state income tax *because more things could be done to help low income families and more money could support the infrastructure. Also fewer tourists would move to FL if there were a state income tax. A big reason people move to Florida is to avoid taxes. I wish there was only a federal income tax that was slightly higher, and the federal goverment could distribute funding to the states according to population. Alternatively, we could just have a common state tax at the same rate for all states and they could collect it. Perhaps 5% nationwide for state tax.



Connecticut didn't have an income tax until about 30 years ago.
The income tax was going to solve all problems. Grants to towns would lower property taxes and the sales tax was lowered.
Surprise! Town grants have been reduced, property and gasoline taxes are amongst the highest, the sales tax has been increased with some services added, but once again, deficits.

When there is more revenue there is also more government spending.

It's my understanding that in Florida, the constitution would have to be amended to add an income tax. After the last income tax increase here, a hedge fund manger that paid over $100 million in state income tax moved his business to Florida and took 35 jobs with him.


----------



## SueDonJ

_*Moderator Note:* A couple posts have been reported/deleted, and responses to those have also been deleted. Remember the "Be Courteous" rule and that TUG prohibits "socially contentious" topics in the public forums. Get  back on track, please._


----------



## Sandi Bo

SueDonJ said:


> _*Moderator Note:* A couple posts have been reported/deleted, and responses to those have also been deleted. Remember the "Be Courteous" rule and that TUG prohibits "socially contentious" topics in the public forums. Get  back on track, please._


Thanks @SueDonJ   It is disapointing the comments have crippled the ability for TUG to be helpful. I see a lot of newbies, and sadly many no longer commenting that might be helpful.


----------



## RENTER

55plus said:


> Dear Renter, It appears you are whining out of both sides of your mouth. Wyndham is not only about you and your so called, rental business. Wyndham is about the people who bought in for personal use and family vacations. Get out or stay in, who cares. I don't. I'm just happy personal commerce on the backs owners' vacation opportunities has ended. You have basically two choices, cut you loses and getting out or enjoy what Wyndham has to offer in term of personal and family vacations. If it's about the money, get a job, a job that doesn't take reservations opportunities away from owners for personal greed and commerce.
> 
> Wyndham won't buy you out nor will you win on court. Why would they buy you out? You bought in and helped create the mess you're in. Wyndham won't bail you out so suck it up and bail yourself out. And for the courts, your case will be dismissed before it gets to a jury and they'll bleed you dry in attorney fees and court costs, that is if you can find an attorney that wants not lose on court.
> 
> There is a balance in the university - ying and yang. Some win, some lose. It all washes out and rights itself in the end. You are one of those that have been winning. Now it's our turn. We'll win in terms of more availability at prime locations during high demand timeframes for personal use.


I have no losses. My rentals have covered what I paid out. You are delusional if you think these new rules are going to help you. That is why us renters are so successful. We study and plan to take advantage of our points. If Wyndham does not allow me to rent but still allows rentals thru them at 40%, I will win my lawsuit. I can still be very successful with the new rules and already have. The only reason I do not want to continue is because I do not want future renters having their reservations canceled because Wyndham changed the rules. But I am pretty sure other renters will continue and you will still be whining. Oh by the way I do have a job and I have investments in the stock market. The rentals were all about having fun and meeting new people.


----------



## RENTER

paxsarah said:


> Probably not, then.
> 
> If you knew enough before purchasing to know you'd be able to rent, then you should have known enough before purchasing to know Wyndham controls the rules.


And Wyndham cannot say it is okay for them to rent out your points at 40% and I cannot rent. I can handle any rule changes they make unless they ban renting. So if they ban it, they have to ban themselves


----------



## RENTER

55plus said:


> I could write a dissertation on how wrong you are on many levels, but I won't. I just state, you are wrong on many levels. And most importantly, the party is over.


You think the party is over. I am doing even better now that they changed the rules. Because I do not wait until 60 days out now. I book a year out now. I want out because I do not want my renters to be subject to  Wyndham changing the rules out at the last minute.


----------



## RENTER

paxsarah said:


> Probably not, then.
> 
> If you knew enough before purchasing to know you'd be able to rent, then you should have known enough before purchasing to know Wyndham controls the rules.


And Wyndham cannot tell us we cannot rent and then tell us it is ok to rent thru them at 40%. I can handle any rule changes they throw at me. I am doing even better now because I adapted to the recent rule changes and now book a year ahead of time instead of 60 days. I want out because  I do not want to subject my renters to Wyndham's last minute rule changes and I do not want to bring Wyndham any potential new business.


----------



## Eric B

RENTER said:


> I am doing even better now that they changed the rules. Because I do not wait until 60 days out now. I book a year out now.



This isn't entirely surprising to me.  It lines up with the interpretation that Wyndham's motivation was to increase the rental costs to improve their bottom line on their own rental business, coupled with a desire to reduce the amount they are spending on point discounts and upgrades subsidizing rentals booked with VIP discounts and upgrades, freeing up those expenses to support their new subscription model.


----------



## RENTER

Eric B said:


> This isn't entirely surprising to me.  It lines up with the interpretation that Wyndham's motivation was to increase the rental costs to improve their bottom line on their own rental business, coupled with a desire to reduce the amount they are spending on point discounts and upgrades subsidizing rentals booked with VIP discounts and upgrades, freeing up those expenses to support their new subscription model.


 Yes. With the new rule changes I have doubled what I normally make by booking a year out instead of 60 days out. But to prove your point, I am paying Wyndham more money with extra guest passes that I charge my renters. A perfect example of how correct you are is they did not change the rules on purchasing points for $12. Normally I did not use them because I had enough resale points. But now that I cannot get the discount on resale points, it makes sense for me to buy points for $12 because I can still get the discount with them. So I will use resale points for long term bookings and my developer points and $12 points for short term renting. With the $12 points I can get $1000 for 100,000,points. But with my discount of 60% it drops to 40,000 points. So I pay Wyndham $480 and earn $520.So Wyndham is making money off me with these new rule changes and the new rule changes have not stopped me a bit which should be very disappointed to those who hate renters. I only want out because I do not want renters depending on me and then Wyndham changing the rules all together to ban renting. I can win that in court especially if they do not stop renting themselves. But I do not want my renters having their reservations cancelled because Wyndham changes the rules at the last minute.


----------



## RENTER

tschwa2 said:


> @RENTER, charities would not have wanted your points unless you were also going to will them the MF"s for 10+ years along with the points.
> 
> Things change and if you don't feel like dealing with it then now would be a good time to get out.  Glad you have the RedRoof to look forward to.


It is in my will and before I died I was going to book rooms for Make A Wish Foundation to provide for families for free.  And yes I agree with you. It is time for me to get out. Even thru I have doubled my income with these new rule changes and can handle any rule changes they throw at me, I do not want my renters to have their reservations cancel because Wyndham changed the rules at the last minute. I am very happy at the Red Roof Inn. I just need a bed and I can bring my dog. But I can also rent from other owners who decided to stay including the one's I had helped renting.


----------



## Eric B

RENTER said:


> Yes. With the new rule changes I have doubled what I normally make by booking a year out instead of 60 days out. But to prove your point, I am paying Wyndham more money with extra guest passes that I charge my renters. A perfect example of how correct you are is they did not change the rules on purchasing points for $12. Normally I did not use them because I had enough resale points. But now that I cannot get the discount on resale points, it makes sense for me to buy points for $12 because I can still get the discount with them. So I will use resale points for long term bookings and my developer points and $12 points for short term renting. With the $12 points I can get $1000 for 100,000,points. But with my discount of 60% it drops to 40,000 points. So I pay Wyndham $480 and earn $520.So Wyndham is making money off me with these new rule changes and the new rule changes have not stopped me a bit which should be very disappointed to those who hate renters. I only want out because I do not want renters depending on me and then Wyndham changing the rules all together to ban renting. I can win that in court especially if they do not stop renting themselves. But I do not want my renters having their reservations cancelled because Wyndham changes the rules at the last minute.



Interesting point about discounts/upgrades for renting points.  So a VIPF would be paying, in effect, $4.80/1000 points in the discount window instead of $12/1000 points, getting first whack at the upgrades, and then be able to rent it out for $10/1000 points.  Yet another way in which Wyndham hasn't really tried to curtail rentals effectively, but still inflicts collateral damage on hybrid owners that use their own points for their own vacations.


----------



## CO skier

RENTER said:


> This change of opinion on Wyndham is a sad change of events because I had put in my will to leave my points to the Make A Wish Foundation and an Animal Rescue Group.


Did you consult with these charitable organizations?  The LAST thing a charitable organization would want is to be burdened with the maintenance fees for a worthless timeshare that no one in the organization knows how to manage.


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> Did you consult with these charitable organizations?  The LAST thing a charitable organization would want is to be burdened with maintenance fees for a worthless timeshare that no one in the organization knows how to manage.


Exactly what I have been saying for a few years now......... Why be "burdened with maintenance fees" when its cheaper to rent from a VIP?


----------



## dannybaker

TravelTime said:


> I am anti-taxes and want a slimmed down government. I do not like the California tax system at all and wish I could convince my husband to move somewhere else. I think it is totally unfair that Californians pay up to 13% in state income tax while Floridians pay nothing. All I hear is Floridians whining about not getting services, too many tourists, housing getting too expensive, etc. Well, many of these problems would be solved if FL had a state income tax because more things could be done to help low income families and more money could support the infrastructure. Also fewer tourists would move to FL if there were a state income tax. A big reason people move to Florida is to avoid taxes. I wish there was only a federal income tax that was slightly higher, and the federal goverment could distribute funding to the states according to population. Alternatively, we could just have a common state tax at the same rate for all states and they could collect it. Perhaps 5% nationwide for state tax.


Please don’t take this the wrong way because I’m in agreement with you. Which party currently represents this mindset? We have two parties and both would like massive spending when it suits them.


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## TravelTime

dannybaker said:


> Please don’t take this the wrong way because I’m in agreement with you. Which party currently represents this mindset? We have two parties and both would like massive spending when it suits them.



I am anti-party because they are all about politics.


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## 55plus

dgalati said:


> Exactly what I have been saying for a few years now......... Why be "burdened with maintenance fees" when its cheaper to rent from a VIP?


Not so much anymore.


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## chapjim

TravelTime said:


> I am anti-party because they are all about politics.



I think you forgot about federalism -- there's no basis whatsoever for saying Florida's (lack of) taxes is unfair when compared to California's.  Californians should do something about it, not complain about Texas, Tennessee, or Florida.

God forbid that the federal government ever set state income tax rates.  Where is there to go then?  Costa Rica?


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## Eric B

chapjim said:


> I think you forgot about federalism -- there's no basis whatsoever for saying Florida's (lack of) taxes is unfair when compared to California's.  Californians should do something about it, not complain about Texas, Tennessee, or Florida.
> 
> God forbid that the federal government ever set state income tax rates.  Where is there to go then?  Costa Rica?



Belize is nice and has a retiree tax-free program.


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## dannybaker

Please forgive me if this is a stupid question, is Wyndham still worthy of purchasing? Do you believe prices will drop even lower for time share resells? We were on the fence about buying 500k points for our travel needs and this has really turned me away from Wyndham.


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## HitchHiker71

dannybaker said:


> Please forgive me if this is a stupid question, is Wyndham still worthy of purchasing? Do you believe prices will drop even lower for time share resells? We were on the fence about buying 500k points for our travel needs and this has really turned me away from Wyndham.



Nothing in this entire thread should turn you or anyone else away from purchasing Wyndham timesharing for personal use. What is it exactly that you’re referring to that has turned you away from Wyndham? Unless you are purchasing points to run a commercial enterprise - nothing substantive has changed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## auntiepen

RENTER said:


> I have no losses. My rentals have covered what I paid out. You are delusional if you think these new rules are going to help you. That is why us renters are so successful. We study and plan to take advantage of our points. If Wyndham does not allow me to rent but still allows rentals thru them at 40%, I will win my lawsuit. I can still be very successful with the new rules and already have. The only reason I do not want to continue is because I do not want future renters having their reservations canceled because Wyndham changed the rules. But I am pretty sure other renters will continue and you will still be whining. Oh by the way I do have a job and I have investments in the stock market. The rentals were all about having fun and meeting new people.


Hi,
Can you walk me through how to rent your Wyndham? We did it with extra holiday fee years ago. My husband stated to have health issues and travel becoming difficult. We are platinum CWA and mostly booked vacation free of charge to friends.  Thank you


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## TravelTime

chapjim said:


> I think you forgot about federalism -- there's no basis whatsoever for saying Florida's (lack of) taxes is unfair when compared to California's.  Californians should do something about it, not complain about Texas, Tennessee, or Florida.
> 
> God forbid that the federal government ever set state income tax rates.  Where is there to go then?  Costa Rica?



If California would end it state pension, we could lower the state tax. I am actually pretty shocked Californians are okay with such high tax rates. No one seems to care.

I am from Florida. No one in Florida actually appreciates that they do not pay state income tax. They actually complain a lot about lack of services. I am constantly reminding them they do not have a state tax so what do they expect. Maybe other states can do well without a state tax but Floridians complain about everything.

I did not forget about federalism. I have opinions and they do not always fit within the existing structure of our form of government.


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## chapjim

TravelTime said:


> If California would end it state pension, we could lower the state tax. I am actually pretty shocked Californians are okay with such high tax rates. No one seems to care.
> 
> I am from Florida. No one in Florida actually appreciates that they do not pay state income tax. They actually complain a lot about lack of services. I am constantly reminding them they do not have a state tax so what do they expect. Maybe other states can do well without a state tax but Floridians complain about everything.
> 
> I did not forget about federalism. I have opinions and they do not always fit within the existing structure of our form of government.



Okay, you haven't forgotten about it.  You just choose to ignore it.  

There are so many other things to respond to that I don't know where to start.  And, it's quite a bit off track from the original topic, so I'll pass.


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## troy12n

TravelTime said:


> I am from Florida. No one in Florida actually appreciates that they do not pay state income tax. They actually complain a lot about lack of services. I am constantly reminding them they do not have a state tax so what do they expect. Maybe other states can do well without a state tax but Floridians complain about everything.



There are two types of Floridians, Native Floridians and those who moved here at some point. Most often, very late in life. Like "approaching death" late...

I think native Floridians, who actually work, definitely realize and appreciate our lack of income tax. We contribute, unlike what seems like the majority of Floridians who moved here from New York, New Jersey or some Midwest hellhole...

It's the second group who do nothing but complain, suck resources and services, complain about every little thing and contribute nothing to our state... sorry, it's the truth


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## ronparise

55plus said:


> Dear Renter, It appears you are whining out of both sides of your mouth. Wyndham is not only about you and your so called, rental business. Wyndham is about the people who bought in for personal use and family vacations. Get out or stay in, who cares. I don't. I'm just happy personal commerce on the backs owners' vacation opportunities has ended. *You have basically two choices, cut you loses and getting out or enjoy what Wyndham has to offer in term of personal and family vacations**.* If it's about the money, get a job, a job that doesn't take reservations opportunities away from owners for personal greed and commerce.
> 
> Wyndham won't buy you out nor will you win on court. Why would they buy you out? You bought in and helped create the mess you're in. Wyndham won't bail you out so suck it up and bail yourself out. And for the courts, your case will be dismissed before it gets to a jury and they'll bleed you dry in attorney fees and court costs, that is if you can find an attorney that wants not lose on court.
> 
> There is a balance in the university - ying and yang. Some win, some lose. It all washes out and rights itself in the end. You are one of those that have been winning. Now it's our turn. We'll win in terms of more availability at prime locations during high demand timeframes for personal use.



seems to me that there is a third choice, adapt to the new rules and continue renting



Mongoose said:


> An owner is an owner if they are using the product for themselves, friends and family.  They become a competetor when they commericalize it.  Wyndham specifically states that their product is not for commerical use of owners.




so wyndham's action is not for the benefit of owners, Wyndham is only trying to eliminate the competition

and by the way, wyndham bought me out.  Why would they do that?  I can think of a couple of reasons 1) this stuff is realestate Wyndham cant just take it, They need the owners signature on a deed.  and the threat of a lawsuit is I think a whole lot less enticing than a buy out.  2) Wyndham has a staff of attorneys,  but they  are realestate attorneys, not trial attorneys.  Paying $15/1000 points in this instance, (for example) is less than $100,000 and  is cheaper than an outside attorney  3) there is more than one way to interpret the no commercial use clause.   4) Wyndham spends a lot of time and money in court, usually on the defense side  I think they would rather defend themselves  than bring their own case


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## ronparise

troy12n said:


> There are two types of Floridians, Native Floridians and those who moved here at some point. Most often, very late in life. Like "approaching death" late...
> 
> I think native Floridians, who actually work, definitely realize and appreciate our lack of income tax. We contribute, unlike what seems like the majority of Floridians who moved here from New York, New Jersey or some Midwest hellhole...
> 
> It's the second group who do nothing but complain, suck resources and services, complain about every little thing and contribute nothing to our state... sorry, it's the truth




I think you have it exactly   backwards People move here to avoid taxes, no income tax and low property taxes, nit to mention the weather. . Florida natives  have always had it this way and dont know how good they have it


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## ronparise

RENTER said:


> I have no losses. My rentals have covered what I paid out. You are delusional if you think these new rules are going to help you. That is why us renters are so successful. We study and plan to take advantage of our points. If Wyndham does not allow me to rent but still allows rentals thru them at 40%, I will win my lawsuit. I can still be very successful with the new rules and already have. The only reason I do not want to continue is because I do not want future renters having their reservations canceled because Wyndham changed the rules. But I am pretty sure other renters will continue and you will still be whining. Oh by the way I do have a job and I have investments in the stock market. The rentals were all about having fun and meeting new people.




If wyndham does decide to come after you, I think it would be a mistake to sue them. You would be spending a ton of money  To my way of thinking, even if you win you lose.  And I dont think they want to sue you


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## TravelTime

ronparise said:


> I think you have it exactly   backwards People move here to avoid taxes, no income tax and low property taxes, nit to mention the weather. . Florida natives  have always had it this way and dont know how good they have it



I tend to agree with you. I think Florida natives and those who have been living in Florida forever, do not realize how good they have it. I need to keep reminding my family and friends how good they have it and why Florida lacks state services and benefits.

The lack of state income taxes draws a lot of people from out of state, especially lately it seems. I think fewer people would find Florida attractive if they had a state income tax. Frankly the weather in Florida is not as good as in California but we do not have an influx of people from other states because it is too expensive to live here. 

Right now we are in Pismo Beach and the weather has been perfect. 50s at night, high 60s and low 70s during the day, no humidity or rain, blue skies, no crowds. Anyone would probably prefer Pismo Beach over Miami Beach or Ft Lauderdale Beach but the cost of living is much higher here.

So it seems to me that people choose Florida more for low cost of living than weather. Otherwise California would also have an influx of retirees.


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## dgalati

TravelTime said:


> I tend to agree with you. I think Florida natives and those who have been living in Florida forever, do not realize how good they have it. I need to keep reminding my family and friends how good they have it and why Florida lacks state services and benefits.
> 
> The lack of state income taxes draws a lot of people from out of state, especially lately it seems. I think fewer people would find Florida attractive if they had a state income tax. Frankly the weather in Florida is not as good as in California but we do not have an influx of people from other states because it is too expensive to live here.
> 
> Right now we are in Pismo Beach and the weather has been perfect. 50s at night, high 60s and low 70s during the day, no humidity or rain, blue skies, no crowds. Anyone would probably prefer Pismo Beach over Miami Beach or Ft Lauderdale Beach but the cost of living is much higher here.
> 
> So it seems to me that people choose Florida more for low cost of living than weather. Otherwise California would also have an influx of retirees.


Most democratic states are highly taxed with unionized workers. Unions also back Democrats. One hand washes the other.


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## dannybaker

HitchHiker71 said:


> Nothing in this entire thread should turn you or anyone else away from purchasing Wyndham timesharing for personal use. What is it exactly that you’re referring to that has turned you away from Wyndham? Unless you are purchasing points to run a commercial enterprise - nothing substantive has changed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We actually love Wyndham resorts and have always either exchanged into them with RCI or rented units here on TUG.


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## troy12n

ronparise said:


> I think you have it exactly   backwards People move here to avoid taxes, no income tax and low property taxes, nit to mention the weather. . Florida natives  have always had it this way and dont know how good they have it



Well, my point stands about people moving here, mostly retired, mostly later in life, mostly with health issues, some of which isn't covered by medicare. They are overwhelming "users" vs contributors to government services. And since they play the "retired on a fixed income" BS game, and vote (because they have nothing better to do and all the time in the world to do it...), politicians pander to them.

We really don't care how much NY/NJ taxes they paid, that doesn't help our situation any

I will tell you this also, the wages are so low in Florida and the cost of living, specifically housing, has risen so much in the last 15-20 years that an Income Tax would be absolutely disasterous for lower income workers, which, is the majority of Floridians...


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## troy12n

TravelTime said:


> I tend to agree with you. I think Florida natives and those who have been living in Florida forever, do not realize how good they have it. I need to keep reminding my family and friends how good they have it and why Florida lacks state services and benefits.
> 
> The lack of state income taxes draws a lot of people from out of state, especially lately it seems. I think fewer people would find Florida attractive if they had a state income tax. Frankly the weather in Florida is not as good as in California but we do not have an influx of people from other states because it is too expensive to live here.
> 
> Right now we are in Pismo Beach and the weather has been perfect. 50s at night, high 60s and low 70s during the day, no humidity or rain, blue skies, no crowds. Anyone would probably prefer Pismo Beach over Miami Beach or Ft Lauderdale Beach but the cost of living is much higher here.
> 
> So it seems to me that people choose Florida more for low cost of living than weather. Otherwise California would also have an influx of retirees.



Average personal income in FL is less than $28,000... average household income is a little over $56,000. We rank 38/50 in median income. Most of our jobs are low wage service industry jobs... there isn't much industrial base to speak for. Never has been. Construction workers, beginning in the 1990's became largely "illegals" who are paid under the table. Think roofers, masons, framers, painters, landscape, stucco and drywall people. The higher skilled construction workers like Electricians, HVAC, Plumbers and a handful of other position (trim carpenters) are largely still Americans. My father was in construction, had his own Masonry company from the 60's through 90's when he transitioned into being a Superintendent for a builder for about 10 years before pivoting into something completely different, working as a machinist for a steam turbine servicing company... in his early 60's. He saw the changes and got out when he was being consistently underbid by Contractors using labor picked up in the parking lot of Home Depot every day and paid cash.

Good paying blue collar jobs are sparse, but do exist. Especially in skilled crafts like Electricians, Plumbers, HVAC, welders, etc. But a lot of service industry jobs pay absolute crap. Because there is (was, up until very recently) no shortage of people willing to work for pennies on the dollar. This current "labor shortage" is really screwing some people up, but in the end won't effect change much.

We live in a state that is diametrically opposed to taxation, and at the same time provides so few services to the people who actually need it. Layering a state income tax on that would be a disaster. I am one of the better off citizens, I never for one day take the lack of income tax for granted.


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## rickandcindy23

We have high state income taxes in CO and are paying nearly $1 more per gallon for gas than neighboring states of Nebraska, Iowa and Wisconsin.  Yet our roads are in bad shape.  The only bad roads in all of our driving through those 3 states were in Colorado.  

Be careful what you wish for because higher taxes for all of the services Colorado provides is keeping money from infrastructure.  I am sure our governor is quite proud of his accomplishments.  

This is totally off subject.  I am actually pretty surprised no one has mentioned that Hilton, Disney, Vistana, Wyndham, all have very big buildings with offices in or near Orlando.  Why would that be?  Hmmm... lack of taxes?  I don't know, but I find it interesting to see all of the big office buildings with those names emblazoned upon them.


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## bogey21

Many years ago I got transferred from Houston to NYC.  Part of the deal was doubling my pay to compensate for the higher cost of living and Income Taxes in NYC  Worked out great as I kept the higher pay when I was transferred from NYC to St Louis...

George


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## Ty1on

rickandcindy23 said:


> This is totally off subject.  I am actually pretty surprised no one has mentioned that Hilton, Disney, Vistana, Wyndham, all have very big buildings with offices in or near Orlando.  Why would that be?  Hmmm... lack of taxes?  I don't know, but I find it interesting to see all of the big office buildings with those names emblazoned upon them.



I'm thinking a combination of lower real estate costs, lower taxation, lower employment costs, and visibility in the timeshare center of the universe.


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## 55plus

As a disabled veteran (VA rated 100%) I pay property taxes, but get it all back in my returns. That saves me about $9K a year. It may seem high, but I live on a lake. If you are a veteran with a VA rating check with your state's Department of Veterans Affairs office about specific state benefits you may qualify for.


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## rickandcindy23

Ty1on said:


> I'm thinking a combination of lower real estate costs, lower taxation, lower employment costs, and visibility in the timeshare center of the universe.


I think so, but you are right about lower taxes.  I think that is absolutely why Orlando (the timeshare center of the universe as you said) attracts the big companies to have their home offices there.  We go at least 6 weeks a year, and I think in 2022 we will be there at least 8 weeks.  It's a great escape for us, Disney and Universal.


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## 55plus

The Michigan mega renter is unloading her very large 3 million contract. I'd didn't know Wyndham sold contracts that large.









						WYNDHAM SMOKY MOUNTAINS, 3,000,000 DEEDED POINTS, ***FREE CLOSING***  | eBay
					

WYNDHAM SMOKY MOUNTAINS. 3,000,000 (3 MILLION) WYNDHAM POINTS. If you receive points for 2021, consider this a BONUS, Otherwise points will start with your use year starting 2022, you will be responsible for the monthly maintenance fees starting January 2022.



					www.ebay.com


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## Roger830

55plus said:


> The Michigan mega renter is unloading her very large 3 million contract. I'd didn't know Wyndham sold contracts that large.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WYNDHAM SMOKY MOUNTAINS, 3,000,000 DEEDED POINTS, ***FREE CLOSING***  | eBay
> 
> 
> WYNDHAM SMOKY MOUNTAINS. 3,000,000 (3 MILLION) WYNDHAM POINTS. If you receive points for 2021, consider this a BONUS, Otherwise points will start with your use year starting 2022, you will be responsible for the monthly maintenance fees starting January 2022.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


That should be interesting to watch.

There are 19 days left on the auction and someone with 4 feedbacks has bid 4 times already.

Edit: Update, 4 1/2 hours later someone bid 13 times to take the lead at $305.


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## Ty1on

Roger830 said:


> That should be interesting to watch.
> 
> There are 19 days left on the auction and someone with 4 feedbacks has bid 4 times already.



$18K annually in MF and Program Fees.  Yeesh.


----------



## dagger1

troy12n said:


> Average personal income in FL is less than $28,000... average household income is a little over $56,000. We rank 38/50 in median income. Most of our jobs are low wage service industry jobs... there isn't much industrial base to speak for. Never has been. Construction workers, beginning in the 1990's became largely "illegals" who are paid under the table. Think roofers, masons, framers, painters, landscape, stucco and drywall people. The higher skilled construction workers like Electricians, HVAC, Plumbers and a handful of other position (trim carpenters) are largely still Americans. My father was in construction, had his own Masonry company from the 60's through 90's when he transitioned into being a Superintendent for a builder for about 10 years before pivoting into something completely different, working as a machinist for a steam turbine servicing company... in his early 60's. He saw the changes and got out when he was being consistently underbid by Contractors using labor picked up in the parking lot of Home Depot every day and paid cash.
> 
> Good paying blue collar jobs are sparse, but do exist. Especially in skilled crafts like Electricians, Plumbers, HVAC, welders, etc. But a lot of service industry jobs pay absolute crap. Because there is (was, up until very recently) no shortage of people willing to work for pennies on the dollar. This current "labor shortage" is really screwing some people up, but in the end won't effect change much.
> 
> We live in a state that is diametrically opposed to taxation, and at the same time provides so few services to the people who actually need it. Layering a state income tax on that would be a disaster. I am one of the better off citizens, I never for one day take the lack of income tax for granted.


Just wondering:  what missing state services are you (and everyone else) talking about?  I’m not sure I understand what these services are…


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## dagger1

dagger1 said:


> Just wondering:  what missing state services are you (and everyone else) talking about?  I’m not sure I understand what these services are…


Still wondering what services Florida or other low tax states are not providing….


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## Italag5

Roger830 said:


> That should be interesting to watch.
> 
> There are 19 days left on the auction and someone with 4 feedbacks has bid 4 times already.
> 
> Edit: Update, 4 1/2 hours later someone bid 13 times to take the lead at $305.


That is a typical low feed back shill bidder running up the price. Free closing should seal the deal?


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## Italag5

Ty1on said:


> $18K annually in MF and Program Fees.  Yeesh.


Chump change for a mega renter.


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## dagger1

dagger1 said:


> Still wondering what services Florida or other low tax states are not providing….


Anyone…?


----------

