# Need some help from Hilton Club - New York Owners



## GT75 (May 18, 2018)

We need some help from Hilton Club - New York Owners.    @alwysonvac  has created this table to show the various booking windows for the different HGV owners.    But we need some help from Hilton Club owners to complete the table.





Thanks


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## Cyberc (May 19, 2018)

From what I can read about the Hilton club - New York they have some differences compared to the “rest” of us. 

1. Home club (as it’s called) is 12-6months in advance and requires 2nt minimum. 
2. Club reservation is 6months - 1nt before checkin and requires 1nt booking only. 
3. OS is the same as most resorts 30 days - 1 day prior to checkin. 
4. Home club and club reservations may be cancelled until 5 days before checkin and if done more than once per calendar year it may incur a cancellation fee. Less than 5 days and you forfeit all points from the reservation but no cancellation fee.  
5. OS reservations may be changed or cancelled until 48 hours prior to checkin with no penalty. Less than 48 hours your forfeit the amount paid. 
6. Reservations with hgvc have the same cancellation rules as the rest of us.


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## Cyberc (May 21, 2018)

Anything else you need?


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## alwysonvac (May 21, 2018)

Cyberc said:


> Anything else you need?



For a few years (from 2010 to 2013?) both rules were available in the HGVC guide. The 2013 Guide matches your Home Club and Club Season descriptions.

My only question is do Hilton Club New York owners have access to all HGVC properties including “By Hilton Club” locations?
I also would like confirmation from a current Hilton Club New York owner just in case anything changed in their latest club member guide.

From the attached 2013 HGVC Member Guide

*HILTON CLUB - NEW YORK SECTION*
_a. Hilton Grand Vacations Club. Through an arrangement with the Hilton Grand Vacations Club exchange program, and other third party exchange providers, Members may redeem Points for vacation accommodations available through Hilton Grand Vacations Club by paying the applicable exchange fee. The reservation window for select resor ts within the Hilton Grand Vacations Club exchange program may vary, but reservations are generally permitted up to nine (9) months (276 days) prior to the check-out date and up to one (1) day prior to check-in
for minimum three (3) night stays. Please refer to 2013ClubProgram.com for specific reservation windows and participating resorts._

_Members may rent accommodations within the Hilton Grand Vacations Club exchange program during the Hilton Grand Vacations Club Open Season reservation window by paying the applicable Member rental rate. The reservation window may vary by resort, but generally occurs thirty (30) days prior to the check-out date and up to one (1) day prior to check-in and require a 2 night minimum stay. Open Season rental reservations are available to Members only. Resort availability and check-in dates may be restricted. Open Season rental rates may
vary by resort and are per night and must be paid in full at time of confirmation._​



​


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## alwysonvac (May 22, 2018)

I updated the chart based on the following *assumptions*:

The Club and Open Season rules posted above for HCNY owners hasn't changed
HCNY members access to HGVC resorts is exactly the same as HGVC owners access  (no exception or exclusions)
​


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## Cyberc (May 22, 2018)

alwysonvac said:


> I updated the chart based on the following *assumptions*:
> 
> The Club and Open Season rules posted above for HCNY owners hasn't changed
> HCNY members access to HGVC resorts is exactly the same as HGVC owners access  (no exception or exclusions)
> View attachment 6736​



Assuming HGV can change the booking rules above, wouldn't they have done so already with West57 so they matched the two other hotels in "by hilton club"? And again wouldn't they have done so with the hilton club new york too?


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## Cyberc (May 22, 2018)

alwysonvac said:


> For a few years (from 2010 to 2013?) both rules were available in the HGVC guide. The 2013 Guide matches your Home Club and Club Season descriptions.
> 
> My only question is do Hilton Club New York owners have access to all HGVC properties including “By Hilton Club” locations?
> ​



My guesstimate would be no they can't book until 44 days out just like the HGVC members - but it would be nice if an owner could confirm this.


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## alwysonvac (May 22, 2018)

We've received confirmation from our HCNY members. We're good 

HNCY rules haven't changed.
HCNY owners follow the same rules for booking HGVC resorts as HGVC resort owners. There are no exclusions or exceptions.
Similar to HGVC owners, HCNY owners have access to the "By Hilton Club" locations at 44 days out.


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## Cyberc (May 23, 2018)

Speaking of rules.

HGV have always been able to change the rules as they see fit, and have done so, why haven't they aligned the rules for the "by hilton club" hotels and included the by hilton club - new york into that pool of hotels?

Is there anything in a declaration of the sort that says that this can't be changed or are HGV afraid of changing the rules for these hotels?


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## alwysonvac (May 23, 2018)

Cyberc said:


> Speaking of rules.
> HGV have always been able to change the rules as they see fit, and have done so, why haven't they aligned the rules for the "by hilton club" hotels and included the by hilton club - new york into that pool of hotels?



Why change if you don’t have to? They have nothing to gain by including HCNY.
It’s all about the money. Why give away an extra benefit for free. Most rules changes are for their internal benefit not owners.

Honestly, I’m a little concerned about the Point values increasing at existing HGVC resorts in HGV’s attempt to get owners to upgrade for more points.

_From the Club Rules_
_Program Changes. Club program use options and rules, including but not limited to, the RCI Exchange Program, special exchanges, nightly point values, reservation windows, the Hilton Honors program, ClubPoint Saving, RCI Depositing, Borrowing, Converting, _
_and ClubPartner Perks that may be offered from time to time, are subject to change, adjustment, suspension or discontinuation without notice . Any such changes will not apply to transactions confirmed prior to the effective date of any such change . In the event the point values for accommodations are adjusted, such adjustments shall not disturb the one-to-one purchaser to accommodation ratio, or a Club Member’s ability to reserve their Home Week._​


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## Cyberc (May 23, 2018)

alwysonvac said:


> Why change if you don’t have to? They have nothing to gain by including HCNY.
> It’s all about the money. Why give away an extra benefit for free. Most rules changes are for their internal benefit not owners.
> 
> Honestly, I’m a little concerned about the Point values increasing at existing HGVC resorts in HGV’s attempt to get owners to upgrade for more points.
> ...


What does the highlighted part mean?

I'm not seeing this as giving anything away for free. If they align the rules for the "by hilton club" hotels they give their new customers base more flexibility.

Ive always been of the understanding that HGV can not change the total number of points, they might rearrange some weeks but overall they had to stay the same for each hotel/resort. After the above post im starting to doubt that as it seems that they indeed can change the point requirements as they see fit :-(


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## GT75 (May 23, 2018)

Cyberc said:


> Ive always been of the understanding that HGV can not change the total number of points, they might rearrange some weeks but overall they had to stay the same for each hotel/resort. After the above post im starting to doubt that as it seems that they indeed can change the point requirements as they see fit



Wow, I actually was under the same impression.    But now looking at the rules, it looks like they can change the point values also.   I would see this as being much more problematic for HGVC to make this change however.


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## Cyberc (May 23, 2018)

GT75 said:


> Wow, I actually was under the same impression.    But now looking at the rules, it looks like they can change the point values also.   I would see this as being much more problematic for HGVC to make this change however.



Curious why?


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## GT75 (May 23, 2018)

Cyberc said:


> Curious why?



Because I would think existing owners would rise up and question/provide feedback/displeasure to HGVC.     To me anyway, the point value is fundamental to the program unlike OS.


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## brp (May 23, 2018)

Cyberc said:


> Ive always been of the understanding that HGV can not change the total number of points, they might rearrange some weeks but overall they had to stay the same for each hotel/resort. After the above post im starting to doubt that as it seems that they indeed can change the point requirements as they see fit :-(



I was pretty sure about this as well as the sale of the property is based on a total number of points. I know that on a DVC board I read, it has been discussed several times that the TOTAL number points at a DVC resort *cannot* be changed. I'm surprised that it seems that it can be done here as that would seem to violate the terms of each sale since it is specified as a percentage of the resort, and this would change the percentage ownership.

Cheers,


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## Cyberc (May 23, 2018)

brp said:


> I was pretty sure about this as well as the sale of the property is based on a total number of points. I know that on a DVC board I read, it has been discussed several times that the TOTAL number points at a DVC resort *cannot* be changed. I'm surprised that it seems that it can be done here as that would seem to violate the terms of each sale since it is specified as a percentage of the resort, and this would change the percentage ownership.
> 
> Cheers,



I wonder where we can find this info as there most be some sort of declaration of the sort?


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## CalGalTraveler (May 23, 2018)

Good point @brp.  The HGVC "club" is spelled out in the deed and is based on a particular deed type as part of a percentage of ownership, so if they made a change, they would have to increase or decrease everyone in the resort.

But for what purpose? It seems they could increase or decrease each resort differently (but everyone relative within). This would destroy their system, create lawsuits, and create distrust resulting in scaring away potential owners, and upsetting existing owners which would eliminate upgrade sales.  I read somewhere that most timeshare buyers these days are existing TS owners.  This would certainly not be the low hanging fruit.


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## brp (May 23, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Good point @brp.  The HGVC "club" is spelled out in the deed and is based on a particular deed type as part of a percentage of ownership, so if they made a change, they would have to increase or decrease everyone in the resort.



So, for HGVC, we own a percentage of the "club," but not a percentage of our home resort? FOr DVC, as I understand it, we own a percentage of our home resort.

Cheers.


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## Nomad420 (May 23, 2018)

GT75 said:


> Wow, I actually was under the same impression.    But now looking at the rules, it looks like they can change the point values also.   I would see this as being much more problematic for HGVC to make this change however.



FWIW, I verbally told that they could not/would not change the point value when I bought into to HCNY.   They said something about "existing owners would go crazy and that isn't there business model".


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## GT75 (May 23, 2018)

I really am not too worried about this happening.   It is more like I will address it if it does happen.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 23, 2018)

brp said:


> So, for HGVC, we own a percentage of the "club," but not a percentage of our home resort? FOr DVC, as I understand it, we own a percentage of our home resort.
> 
> Cheers.



We own a percentage of our home resort similar to DVC. That percentage also translates to a points value in the club in addition to other factors such as season and unit amenities e.g. view. It is all relative.

The adjustments they have made to date (other than OS which doesn't affect your deed) seem to correct seasonal and other minor discrepancies. The odds of a major change are quite small. It would be tremendously difficult and expensive legally to unwind the system.

People have paid money for a certain set of services. Unlike airline points programs that can devalue at a whim because no one paid for them.  This is a case of thousands of dollars spent by consumers with the expectation of a particular outcome. Developers need to be careful not to cross the line into fraud.

These are also public companies with certain obligations. If the executives anticipated making such changes, this would affect the value of the stock and would need to be disclosed publicly in advance via SEC disclosures. Not disclosing runs the risk of an SEC violation because it would materially change the value of the company and could subject the officers to personal liability. 

We need to remember that *HGVC IS the club *and the operations that are contracted to support HOAs.  We own the real estate.  If the 'club' is gone or majorly altered, what is left of the HGVC business?

If owners default because of negative club changes and HOAs cannot pay HGVC to service to property, that would be self-inflicted injury to their revenue stream as well.


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## Cyberc (May 23, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> We own a percentage of our home resort similar to DVC. That percentage also translates to a points value in the club in addition to other factors such as season and unit amenities e.g. view. It is all relative.


So basically if I own 2% today and that equals xyz amount of points, then if HGV increases the points value tomorrow by 15% then I’ll still own 2% at my resort but those 2% now equals xyz+15%


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## brp (May 23, 2018)

Cyberc said:


> So basically if I own 2% today and that equals xyz amount of points, then if HGV increases the points value tomorrow by 15% then I’ll still own 2% at my resort but those 2% now equals xyz+15%



That's just it. If they change the points for a resort, they'd have to change all of our points to keep it equal,

If Club_A has 100,000 total points for all rooms, all seasons, and I own 1000 points then, it seems, that I am deeded with 1% of this resort.

If they raise it to 110, 000, then they'd need to raise my yearly allotment fro 1100 to keep me whole.

As the owner of Club_A this would actually be a good thing as my "buying power" in Club_A stays the same but, assuming that they'd not done this in all the resorts, the my "buying power" elsewhere increases.

For non-Club_A owners, of course, buying into Club_A for a stay now costs more. So, this would be a way to raise the value of a resort relative to others. But current owners would be unaffected.

Cheers.


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## alwysonvac (May 23, 2018)

There is nothing that I know of that can stop HGVC from increasing points at a resort.

Here’s an example where HGVC redefined the seasons which resulted in point increases for those impacted home resort owners.

From an old 2004 TUG post - http://www.tug1.net/tugbbs1/Forum6/HTML/001340.html
_To those who weren't around when HGVC Flamingo was the only HGVC resort in Vegas, apparently that's the only one that had Week 51 sold at a premium as an event week.

Originally, there were only TWO platinum weeks in Las Vegas - fixed Christmas and fixed New Years, The other weeks that are now designated Platinum were Gold weeks at 5000 points for 2-br. There were also silver and bronze weeks. 

Later in the 90's, HGVC decided to have both floating and fixed Platinum weeks to more closely correspond to the seasons and pricing in Orlando. Gold weeks became floating Platinum; silver owners were upped to Gold and bronze week owners now had Silver designation and there were no more bronze weeks in Las Vegas..I think that all happened in either 1997 or 1998.._​


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## CalGalTraveler (May 23, 2018)

I believe Hyatt rationalized one of their resorts in in Key West from 1200 to 2000 points to be consistent with the rest of the system.  Those type of changes are not going to be a problem. It is devaluation that's a problem.


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## alwysonvac (May 23, 2018)

Hyatt also pissed off members when they raised points values at Hyatt Highland Inn in Carmel, CA

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...ocation-change-increase-for-all-units.110715/


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## alwysonvac (May 23, 2018)

Vistana (aka Starwood) has also increased points (aka StarOptions) at some resorts.

Ocean Front now has more Starpoints and Options (2015) - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...as-more-starpoints-and-options-merged.231352/

Sheraton Vistana Resort StarOption Increase (2015) - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/sheraton-vistana-resort-staroption-increase.222385/


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## CalGalTraveler (May 23, 2018)

It seems after perusing the thread that such changes benefit owners but upsets traders.


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## brp (May 23, 2018)

alwysonvac said:


> There is nothing that I know of that can stop HGVC from increasing points at a resort.
> 
> Here’s an example where HGVC redefined the seasons which resulted in point increases for those impacted home resort owners.


 They redefined seasons, or changed the total points in the resort across all rooms and all seasons? If they did the latter, how did they keep the deeded percentage ownerships the same since that is part of the contract?

Cheers.


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## brp (May 23, 2018)

alwysonvac said:


> Vistana (aka Starwood) has also increased points (aka StarOptions) at some resorts.
> 
> Ocean Front now has more Starpoints and Options (2015) - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...as-more-starpoints-and-options-merged.231352/
> 
> Sheraton Vistana Resort StarOption Increase (2015) - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/sheraton-vistana-resort-staroption-increase.222385/



In both of these threads they also increased the values of the owners' holdings (and not just the points in the resort) which is consistent with the scenario above.

Cheers.


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## CalGalTraveler (May 24, 2018)

It is interesting to see that someone said after the Hyatt change "points is points is dead."  HGVC seems to be moving slowly toward that trend with 44 day and other limitations on club windows and selling high point units which enables such high point owners the opportunity to create more demand for lower point units while not increasing demand through high point values or limiting reservations such as Hilton Club.

Two years ago a 4800 Vegas seemed sufficient. Now people are seeking 7K and higher.


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## Panina (May 24, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> It is interesting to see that someone said after the Hyatt change "points is points is dead."  HGVC seems to be moving slowly toward that trend with 44 day and other limitations on club windows and selling high point units which enables such high point owners the opportunity to create more demand for lower point units while not increasing demand through high point values or limiting reservations such as Hilton Club.
> 
> Two years ago a 4800 Vegas seemed sufficient. Now people are seeking 7K and higher.



Agree with you, HGVC is moving slowly towards that trend.  Still a great system but “points are points”  is not what it use to be.  

Often tuggers disagree with me to own hgvc points where and when you would be ok going if the system changes as I am told points are points.   I own 3 hgvc timeshare and know I love them and can use them just the way they are.  Of course,  now I use points to go to different places.  On the flip side my expense per point is not the lowest but I am ok with the security of owning what I would be happy using.


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## alwysonvac (May 24, 2018)

brp said:


> They redefined seasons, or changed the total points in the resort across all rooms and all seasons? If they did the latter, *how did they keep the deeded percentage ownerships the same since that is part of the contract*?
> 
> Cheers.



Hgvc owners have deeded weeks (not points like DVC).

I’m assuming HGVC’s deeded percentage of ownership is primarily based on the number of units. So if Flamingo has 200 units then 200x52=10400 weeks then one week is 1/10400 (0.0000961538%). It has nothing to do with HGVC’s point assignments.

You can check your HOA governing documents to know for sure


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## brp (May 29, 2018)

alwysonvac said:


> Hgvc owners have deeded weeks (not points like DVC).
> 
> I’m assuming HGVC’s deeded percentage of ownership is primarily based on the number of units. So if Flamingo has 200 units then 200x52=10400 weeks then one week is 1/10400 (0.0000961538%). It has nothing to do with HGVC’s point assignments.
> 
> You can check your HOA governing documents to know for sure



So, even with this, it still doesn't make sense to me (and sometimes density can be one of my character traits )

Let's say, for sake of argument, that they doubled the points in the resort. In order for me to still be able to "afford" that deeded week that I own, they'd have to double my points. So it seems that it would work out to the same thing. Status quo in my resort (in this case) and a benefit within the system.

But I don't see how they can change the points in the resort without changing owners' points by the same amount, even if it is based on a deeded week.

Cheers.


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## Seagila (May 30, 2018)

brp said:


> But I don't see how they can change the points in the resort without changing owners' points by the same amount, even if it is based on a deeded week.



I suppose HGVC could legally increase the number of points required to reserve my deeded week without increasing the points they give me for my week, but they would have to rewrite Club Rules for Home Week and risk affected owners not trading their week in the system.

Marriott's DC points system is setup this way. It would cost a Marriott owner who elect points for their week more points than they're allocated to reserve the week they own.  They call it the "skim".

I don't think HGVC would make such a move.


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## Talent312 (May 30, 2018)

IMHO, this is much ado about nothing (credit: Shakespeare).
HGVC made adjustments in its infancy, but it's point-system us otherwise stable.

What's new, as Panina notes, is expansion of the "by Hilton Club" tier.

I'm ambivalent about that.
I do resent that they made it so difficult to book "by Hilton Club" resorts.
But, when I bought into HGVC ~11 years ago, I was happy with what they had.
It's actually kinda nice that HGVC caters to a wide-variety of point-holders.
Bottom Line: If they can sell it, so be it. It is what it is.
.


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