# Gamblers cut back and casinos struggle in 3rd qtr



## John Cummings (Oct 28, 2009)

This is an article I just received tonight. Harrah's lost $1.6 Billion in the 3rd quarter.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Gamblers-cut-back-and-casinos-apf-2985511074.html?x=0&.v=1


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## JeffW (Oct 28, 2009)

I'm no economist, but that fact that Harrah's was still able to get 90% occupancy (Wynn 84%) I think is a good thing.  I know those numbers are based on much lower room rates (I went for an August trip specifically because rates were so low), but getting people still coming to your casinos is an important first step.  At least people are still willing to travel & stay there, now they just need to find a way to start up'ing the room rates.  I don't think having rates 2x as much, but occupancy below 50% would be better.

Jeff


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## DeniseM (Oct 28, 2009)

Except they don't make money on the rooms - they make money on gambling...


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## John Cummings (Oct 28, 2009)

JeffW said:


> I'm no economist, but that fact that Harrah's was still able to get 90% occupancy (Wynn 84%) I think is a good thing.  I know those numbers are based on much lower room rates (I went for an August trip specifically because rates were so low), but getting people still coming to your casinos is an important first step.  At least people are still willing to travel & stay there, now they just need to find a way to start up'ing the room rates.  I don't think having rates 2x as much, but occupancy below 50% would be better.
> 
> Jeff



Filling their rooms because of low rates is not necessarily a good thing for the bottom line. The fact is that people are not gambling nearly as much. We are going to Las Vegas in 10 days for 5 nights to see the Bette Midler show at Caesar's Palace because Caesar's invited us.

We don't go to Las Vegas much anymore as we far prefer our local casino/resorts in Southern California.


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## easyrider (Oct 28, 2009)

If the casinos want more players they need to drop the minimum bet. $25.00 min is too much for funsies.


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## John Cummings (Oct 28, 2009)

easyrider said:


> If the casinos want more players they need to drop the minimum bet. $25.00 min is too much for funsies.



They need to get more slot players. That is where they earn the most.


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## jamstew (Oct 28, 2009)

I was stunned at the number of penny slots front and center when I was there in August, even at Wynn, Mirage, etc. Table minimums were lower than I've seen them in years--there were actually quite a few $10 blackjack tables. On the plane on the way home, a guy was reading a WSJ and one of the headlines was about the penny slots. Heck, I remember when you had to hunt down nickel machines, and it wasn't that long ago.


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## JeffW (Oct 28, 2009)

John Cummings said:


> Filling their rooms because of low rates is not necessarily a good thing for the bottom line...



Then do you think having a lower occupancy, at a higher nightly room rate, is better?  Obviously room rates and total spending are related - someone spending $200/night at Wynn is probably more likely to spend $50/person for dinner, than someone spending $40/night at Palace Station.  However, based on the huge reduction in room rates (including free - yes totally free! - at Orleans), I'm assuming there must be some economics that says it's better to have people at your casino at a lower room rate than to keep your existing rates, but go with low occupancy.

I know when I was there in August, Lion King seemed pretty full at Mandalay Bay, and there were basically no discounts for Jersey Boys (upgrade to better seats through vegas.com, same thing I got in April).  But Human Nature and another 'lesser' show, no problems getting half price seats.  

There could two classes of vacation travellers now, 'haves' and 'have nots'.  I'm sort of seeing that in Hawaii now.  At Westin Princeville resort in Kauai, they were running close to 100% occupancy.  At Kameole Beach Club in Kihei (picked up because we needed just 1 night's lodging on Maui), manager said they were less than half full.

Jeff


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## John Cummings (Oct 28, 2009)

jamstew said:


> I was stunned at the number of penny slots front and center when I was there in August, even at Wynn, Mirage, etc. Table minimums were lower than I've seen them in years--there were actually quite a few $10 blackjack tables. On the plane on the way home, a guy was reading a WSJ and one of the headlines was about the penny slots. Heck, I remember when you had to hunt down nickel machines, and it wasn't that long ago.



Penny machines are not really penny when you can bet up to $20.00 a spin. They typically have from 20 to 100 lines and you can bet from 1 to 20 times each line. I generally bet $2.00-$3.00 per spin on them. Most folks, including myslf, that used to play the dollar slots prefer the penny ones becasue they are more interesting, not because they are any cheaper.


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## John Cummings (Oct 28, 2009)

JeffW said:


> Then do you think having a lower occupancy, at a higher nightly room rate, is better?  Obviously room rates and total spending are related - someone spending $200/night at Wynn is probably more likely to spend $50/person for dinner, than someone spending $40/night at Palace Station.  However, based on the huge reduction in room rates (including free - yes totally free! - at Orleans), I'm assuming there must be some economics that says it's better to have people at your casino at a lower room rate than to keep your existing rates, but go with low occupancy.
> 
> I know when I was there in August, Lion King seemed pretty full at Mandalay Bay, and there were basically no discounts for Jersey Boys (upgrade to better seats through vegas.com, same thing I got in April).  But Human Nature and another 'lesser' show, no problems getting half price seats.
> 
> ...



Having higher occupancy because of lower rates does not mean more revenue from gambling which is their bread and butter. They found that out 10 years ago when they tried catering to the family trade. What usually happens is they attract more non-gamblers that fill the rooms because of the cheap rates. Reread the article and you will see that the visitors are spending less per person on other things which is why their revenue from gambling is down a lot.


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## dougp26364 (Oct 28, 2009)

I guess all those people who said a change in the house edge of 1% and continouse shuffle machines capable of spitting out 120 hands/hour vs the more traditional 60 hands/hour finally figured out their wallets were going empty more than twice as fast. 

A few years ago the casino exec's figured out most gamblers don't do math. They increased the house pay and the tech boomers, who seemed all to good at throwing money away, just kept sliding $100 bills into the machines. We'll now that goose that laid that golden egg is dead and the mom and pop gambler just doesn't see the value in losing $20 in less than 5 mintues in a slot machine. 

So the casino exec's might have become more efficient as squeezing dollars out of gamblers but, they killed the goose the laid the golden egg. No one hear's the winners in the casino anymore with coins clanking in the trays. No one hears the change girls advice that this machine is due to hit. No one gets prime rib for $5.99, steak and eggs for $2.99 or a lousy coffee shop of buffet comp when they lost their stash after an all night gaming session. Instead people remember that they lost $20 in less than 5 minutes and that just wasn't any fun. Even if they bring back the odds, those same people that couldn't do math before won't understand if they try to tell them things are better now. Plus all the sounds of winners that was Vegas have been economized out of the casino's so even that stimulation is gone.


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## John Cummings (Oct 29, 2009)

dougp26364 said:


> I guess all those people who said a change in the house edge of 1% and continouse shuffle machines capable of spitting out 120 hands/hour vs the more traditional 60 hands/hour finally figured out their wallets were going empty more than twice as fast.
> 
> A few years ago the casino exec's figured out most gamblers don't do math. They increased the house pay and the tech boomers, who seemed all to good at throwing money away, just kept sliding $100 bills into the machines. We'll now that goose that laid that golden egg is dead and the mom and pop gambler just doesn't see the value in losing $20 in less than 5 mintues in a slot machine.
> 
> So the casino exec's might have become more efficient as squeezing dollars out of gamblers but, they killed the goose the laid the golden egg. No one hear's the winners in the casino anymore with coins clanking in the trays. No one hears the change girls advice that this machine is due to hit. No one gets prime rib for $5.99, steak and eggs for $2.99 or a lousy coffee shop of buffet comp when they lost their stash after an all night gaming session. Instead people remember that they lost $20 in less than 5 minutes and that just wasn't any fun. Even if they bring back the odds, those same people that couldn't do math before won't understand if they try to tell them things are better now. Plus all the sounds of winners that was Vegas have been economized out of the casino's so even that stimulation is gone.



Doug,

It appears that you may be a little disappointed in what is taking place. From your days at Hack Attack, you know that NO change person nor anybody can tell when a machine is going to hit. I say good riddance to coins. I am glad to see they are gone. We have talked about the demise of cheap eats, etc. ad nausem. You can thank the casinos catering to the family trade started in the 90's for that. Like Steve Wynne said, it was the stupidest thing they ever did. What I miss about the old Las Vegas is none of those things. What I miss is the ambiance, no drunken young people, people dressing up, etc.

As far as winning goes, the California casinos, prior to them being legalized, were the best of all when they had the Indian 8 line video slot machines. I won jackpots of $22,000 and $97,000 Barona Casino in San Diego county on those old Indian machines. After the casinos were legalized, they copied Las Vegas and that was it.


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## falmouth3 (Oct 29, 2009)

John Cummings said:


> Penny machines are not really penny when you can bet up to $20.00 a spin. They typically have from 20 to 100 lines and you can bet from 1 to 20 times each line. I generally bet $2.00-$3.00 per spin on them. Most folks, including myslf, that used to play the dollar slots prefer the penny ones becasue they are more interesting, not because they are any cheaper.



I am not a high stakes gambler, so I also prefer the penny machines.  I always play all the lines so I'm typically playing 20-50 cents per spin.  I like hearing the bells and other noises and I can get just as many of those with an inexpensive machine as with a more expensive one.  But, with the penny machines, they do get more of my money with each spin than when I was playing nickel or quarter machines.  I am not the type of gambler that the casinos would really like, but I lose my money most of the time, just like anyone else.   

Sue


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## happybaby (Oct 29, 2009)

falmouth3 said:


> I am not a high stakes gambler, so I also prefer the penny machines.  I always play all the lines so I'm typically playing 20-50 cents per spin.  I like hearing the bells and other noises and I can get just as many of those with an inexpensive machine as with a more expensive one.  But, with the penny machines, they do get more of my money with each spin than when I was playing nickel or quarter machines.  I am not the type of gambler that the casinos would really like, but I lose my money most of the time, just like anyone else.
> 
> Sue



We play the penny and nickle machines more often also.  DH says we should play the dollar since you are betting 3.00 on a penney machine.  At least if you hit,it's 10.00 and not one dollar.

But I don't always bet the max on the penney or nickle.  Kind of mix it up,same with any machine
But the penneys are so much fun.  I love the bonus rounds.

Wrong forum, but in Atlantic City, I played a nickle machine at 2x, 2 spins and into a bonus round which went on for at least 10 minutes.  And won 100.00 on the bonus round.   Not bad for a nickel machine and the same on a penney machine


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## hefleycatz (Oct 29, 2009)

My husband and I go to Harrahs pretty much every week-end.  He plays black-jack at a Min. $10 table sometimes on Saturday morning its $5 min.  Thats when I play.  I like the slots thought.   I play penny slots mostly, even though it is usually .40 a bet.   Like the .25 slots that have multiple lines to win, though I usually go up to .75  to try to hit the progressive.  

People may have cut back a little, the dollar slots are always open, but they haven't stopped coming.   It is always busy on the week-ends and pretty steady during the week.


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## dougp26364 (Oct 29, 2009)

John Cummings said:


> Doug,
> 
> It appears that you may be a little disappointed in what is taking place. From your days at Hack Attack, you know that NO change person nor anybody can tell when a machine is going to hit. I say good riddance to coins. I am glad to see they are gone. We have talked about the demise of cheap eats, etc. ad nausem. You can thank the casinos catering to the family trade started in the 90's for that. Like Steve Wynne said, it was the stupidest thing they ever did. What I miss about the old Las Vegas is none of those things. What I miss is the ambiance, no drunken young people, people dressing up, etc.
> 
> As far as winning goes, the California casinos, prior to them being legalized, were the best of all when they had the Indian 8 line video slot machines. I won jackpots of $22,000 and $97,000 Barona Casino in San Diego county on those old Indian machines. After the casinos were legalized, they copied Las Vegas and that was it.



I didn't say I missed those things personally. I said the casino's are missing those things.

Gamblers as a whole are weird animals. Most seem to believe more than the average person in susperstition. I overheard a conversation once on how to play Keno, which involved concentrating on the numbers they didn't pick so the Keno machine would think those where the number they wanted. This would cause the Keno machine to kick out the numbers they had really picked and they'd win. This woman who was explaining this REALLY believed in what they were saying.

The sounds of REAl coins hitting the trays, the sight of change girls with bad advice, the sounds of the cocktail waitressess asking if you wanted another drink are all part of the stimulation of the senses that encourage gamblers to gamble. In the casino exec's rush to streamline picking the gamblers pockets, they forgot the silly little things that made gambling fun to the math impaired. 

Las Vegas had become efficient are removing money from people's pockets. They rode on the coattails of the success of those BEFORE Steve Wynn brought in the more efficient methods of seperating tourists (not gamblers) from their money. When the economy is good, people will argue who cares if the house edge just went up 1%. Who care if there's now a double zero on the roulette wheel instead of one zero. Who cares if the quarter video poker machines are short pay rather than full pay. I'm having fun. I'm not trying to win money. 

But in the end, those same people will eventually realize it's not so much fun to lose $100 in 5 minutes rather than getting an hours play out of that money. $25/hand at 120 hands an hour with a house edge approaching 2% really is a lot worse than $5/hand at 60 hands/hour with a house edge of 0.5% (with perfect play of course). They may not understand WHY it makes a difference but they have learned (been conditioned) to understand the results non-the-less.

Vegas and gambling was about conditioning much like Pavlov's dogs proved. Sights, sounds and actions were all a big part of the gambling experience the encourage gamblers to turn loose of good common sense. The casino execs, including Steve Wynn, in their rush to more efficiently pan the gold fields lost sight of those very important touch stones and now they're seeing the fruits of their labors. The old Vegas made losing your money fun and fashionable. The new Vegas only tried to make it fun. When the economy went south, it was no longer fashionable to toss a few thousand to the wind in Vegas. 

Heck, people actually use to BELIEVE that you could win in Vegas. Now it seems that most have learned you can't win in Vegas. The curtain has been pulled back to reveal the wizzard for what he is. I can't help it if the Indian casino's followed the same foolish path.


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## jamstew (Oct 29, 2009)

John Cummings said:


> Penny machines are not really penny when you can bet up to $20.00 a spin. They typically have from 20 to 100 lines and you can bet from 1 to 20 times each line. I generally bet $2.00-$3.00 per spin on them. Most folks, including myslf, that used to play the dollar slots prefer the penny ones becasue they are more interesting, not because they are any cheaper.



Oh, I agree they aren't cheaper, but I wonder how many people really take the time to figure that out? I learned the hard way by feeding the machine $20 and accidentally hit maximum bet, and the $20 was gone. It definitely got my attention   I think the WSJ article was about how much money the casinos were making on the penny slots. They are a heck of a lot more interesting & fun than higher denomination slots, so I really enjoyed it. My max bet on dollar machines is $3, and on quarter machines $1.25, so I keep my penny bets in that range.


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## John Cummings (Oct 29, 2009)

dougp26364 said:


> The sounds of REAl coins hitting the trays, the sight of change girls with bad advice, the sounds of the cocktail waitressess asking if you wanted another drink are all part of the stimulation of the senses that encourage gamblers to gamble.



Two out of three isn't bad. I don't know where you go but the change girls and cocktail waitresses are still there at all the casinos I go to which is a lot. The only difference is that the change girls change bills now instead of coins. As I said before, I don't know very many people that aren't happy that the coins have disappeared. The only ones I have heard say this are the ones that are very casual players.

All you have said applies NOT to the gamblers but to the very casual player that walked around with a cup with a few nickles in it. I talk to a lot of Diamond Players in the Diamond Lounges at various Harrah's properties. We are all pretty serious players that have been doing it for a number of years. All of us are very happy to not have to deal with coins. We don't want a lot of noise. The fun is in the play. What a lot of us miss, is when there were no kids around, drunks were kicked out and people dressed up, etc. In other words, the ambiance. Now if you are talking about lower payback percentages and the demise of full pay VP machines then that is a different story. However, as long as it is still fun, I will continue to play.

Las Vegas is hurting because of 3 basic factors. They are: the economy, over expanson, and the proliferation of gambling in other states, especially California.


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## SunSand (Oct 29, 2009)

When we were in Vegas in mid-September, it was packed with people.  I was very surprised, considering the economy.  Even mid-week, the Strip was full.  I find it hard to believe they're hurting.    Maybe people like me are just sick to death with Harrah's.  It seems there's a Harrah's or a Horseshoe in every cornfield and city in America.  Their comps are terrible, maybe people are done with Harrah's brand loyalty?  I don't know, but the slump is not all attributed to the bad economy.


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## roadtriper (Oct 29, 2009)

*Flash from the past*



John Cummings said:


> Doug,
> 
> It appears that you may be a little disappointed in what is taking place. From your days at Hack Attack, you know that NO change person nor anybody can tell when a machine is going to hit. I say good riddance to coins. I am glad to see they are gone. We have talked about the demise of cheap eats, etc. ad nausem. You can thank the casinos catering to the family trade started in the 90's for that. Like Steve Wynne said, it was the stupidest thing they ever did. What I miss about the old Las Vegas is none of those things. What I miss is the ambiance, no drunken young people, people dressing up, etc.
> 
> As far as winning goes, the California casinos, prior to them being legalized, were the best of all when they had the Indian 8 line video slot machines. I won jackpots of $22,000 and $97,000 Barona Casino in San Diego county on those old Indian machines. After the casinos were legalized, they copied Las Vegas and that was it.



I had forgotten about "Hack Attack"  I loved that website!   Doug what was your connection there?    RT


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## pianodinosaur (Oct 29, 2009)

John Cummings:

Thanks for posting a very interesting article.  I enjoy Las Vegas as a convention city.  The convention facilities and shows in Las Vegas are the best. However, I find it very difficult to feel sorry for the casinos.

dougp26364:

My impression of the casinos is as follows: You play, You pay.


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## John Cummings (Oct 30, 2009)

SunSand said:


> When we were in Vegas in mid-September, it was packed with people.  I was very surprised, considering the economy.  Even mid-week, the Strip was full.  I find it hard to believe they're hurting.    Maybe people like me are just sick to death with Harrah's.  It seems there's a Harrah's or a Horseshoe in every cornfield and city in America.  Their comps are terrible, maybe people are done with Harrah's brand loyalty?  I don't know, but the slump is not all attributed to the bad economy.



It is not a matter of how many people are on the strip. It is a matter of how many people are sitting at the slot/VP machines and the tables. That has definitely dropped. I remember 10 or 15 years ago when I had to play from 2:00 am to 9:00 am in order to play the machines I wanted. In order to have any chance at winning, you have to be able to move from machine to machine. In the last few years, I can play at any time and still be able to move around. Cheap room rates attracts the non-gambling visitors on a tight budget which is counter productive.

Almost all of the Las Vegas casinos are hurting pretty badly with some in bankruptcy. A lot of their problems are self made because they were over leveraged thinking that they could keep expanding.

I am fully comped by Harrah's as well several others. Harrah's comps are no worse than any of the others. I was in Las Vegas in June at the Paris for 5 nights. Everything was fully comped. We will be at Caesar's Palace in 10 days because they invited us to the Bette Midler show. We will be there for 3 nights and then 2 nights at the Silverton. Everything is fully comped at both Caesar's and the Silverton. I don't believe it is a good thing that Harrah's literally owns the mid-strip.  Our favorite casino/resort is Agua Caliente in Rancho Mirage ( Palm Springs area ) where we are fully comped. We will be going there for 4 nights the first week in December.


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## John Cummings (Oct 30, 2009)

pianodinosaur said:


> John Cummings:
> 
> Thanks for posting a very interesting article.  I enjoy Las Vegas as a convention city.  The convention facilities and shows in Las Vegas are the best. However, I find it very difficult to feel sorry for the casinos.
> 
> ...



You are welcome.

The casinos are businesses, not charitable organizations. Like any other business, their purpose is to make money. Sure they are more expensive today but so is everything else. I would like to be able to buy a nice car for less than $10,000 but those days are long gone. Like I said, as long as I am having fun, I will keep on playing. When it is no longer fun then I will find something else to do.


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## tombo (Oct 30, 2009)

I do not understand the "fun" of handing casinos large sums of hard earned money on the outside chance that you might actually win money. Everyone knows that the casinos are designed to make sure you lose. In fact the few mathmeticians and card counters who can actually win at black jack are banned from all casinos and their names and pictures are passed around to make sure that the other casinos know who they are too. What a great deal for casinos, they only allow people to gamble who will lose money. The old adage that they don't build these big fancy casinos because people are coming there and winning will always ring true. Those beautiful casinos are built squarely on the backs of losers. You can gamble infrequently and for short periods of time and actually win money at the casino, but if you gamble long enough the house odds will take over and you too will be a loser.

Casinos have opened in my state and I personally know several families who have lost their homes, businesses, and life savings to gambling. They have been hard working people all their lives who had no financial problems until a casino opened up 45 minutes from home. Call it an addiction, call it marketing, no matter what you want to call it casinos destroy many familes financially and the casinos don't care until the gamblers line of credit is closed. 

One of my friends lost his paid for home and 30 year old business when he couldn't pay his line of credit and the casino foreclosed on his assets. He said that he loved walking in and the VIP check-in would grab his luggage from the car, park the car, give his wife free spa treatments, all the free golf,food, drinks, and shows he wanted. When he sat down at the tables it was always hello MR X, it is so great to see you again Mr X. Now that he is divorced and working as a guard at the prison for low wages he no longer is comped,  there are no more free suites, no more free show tickets, no more VIP treatment because he is no longer rich enough to fleece.

A wise wealthy man told me one time years ago that the most expensive vacation he ever took in his whole life was his totally free comped trip to Vegas. He said after he returned home and tallied his losses that he could have flown the family to Europe for a month staying in luxury hotels, eating out at great restaurants every night, and golfing every day. He said he went back to Vegas one more time since they were begging him to come back for anther free comp trip. He went back and he didn't gamble much and only lost a couple of hundred dollars in 4 days. He said he was told during his stay that if he didn't increase his time at the tables and his average bet that they wouldn't be able to comp him again. When he was leaving he told his VIP rep that the first time the casino fleeced him, he said this time I fleeced the casino. He told the concierge that he didn't care that he wasn't going to be comped in the future because he was not coming back. He is a very wise man. Nothing in life is free. If you are being comped by a casino, you can be sure that you are losing more gambling than the value of the comps you receive, or the casino will stop the comps. 

The last time I was in Vegas for a week I played Black Jack for a total of 3 hours losing a whopping $200 (my self imposed loss limit for the whole trip). I lost the $200 the first night and after that I bought my own drinks, meals, and show tickets. Nothing was comped but I saved a lot of money over the previous trip where I lost $1000's gambling but drank "free" and got "free" buffet tickets. 

I have no compassion for the financial troubles the casinos are experiencing, just as they have no compassion for the "customers" they fleece hourly. I really would like for all of the casinos to see first hand what it is like for the millions they have put into financial distress, bankruptcy, or abject poverty through their marketing strategies.

 Perhaps their greed will finally be their own demise. If enough people realize that the casinos don't want them there for any reason other than to lose money gambling then perhaps business will fall enough to where the casinos will fold. I have already surrendered and admitted I can't beat their odds. I will go to Vegas again for the shows, great meals, and lavish casinos but the Casinos will not enjoy my stay because I will pay for everything that I do (not get comps) and I won't give them another dollar gambling. I hope millions of others feel the same way. As far as I am concerned struggling with hard times is not enough payback for the casinos past greed, I hope they all go broke. JMO.


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## John Cummings (Oct 30, 2009)

tombo said:


> I do not understand the "fun" of handing casinos large sums of hard earned money on the outside chance that you might actually win money. Everyone knows that the casinos are designed to make sure you lose. In fact the few mathmeticians and card counters who can actually win at black jack are banned from all casinos and their names and pictures are passed around to make sure that the other casinos know who they are too. What a great deal for casinos, they only allow people to gamble who will lose money. The old adage that they don't build these big fancy casinos because people are coming there and winning will always ring true. Those beautiful casinos are built squarely on the backs of losers. You can gamble infrequently and for short periods of time and actually win money at the casino, but if you gamble long enough the house odds will take over and you too will be a loser.
> 
> Casinos have opened in my state and I personally know several families who have lost their homes, businesses, and life savings to gambling. They have been hard working people all their lives who had no financial problems until a casino opened up 45 minutes from home. Call it an addiction, call it marketing, no matter what you want to call it casinos destroy many familes financially and the casinos don't care until the gamblers line of credit is closed.
> 
> ...



That is absurd. Casinos are in the entertainment business. They are in business to make money like any other business. If you don't like gambling, that is perfectly OK. Of course the casinos want the people to gamble. That is their business. That doesn't mean they are greedy. I play strictly for entertainment. It is something I enjoy doing. I have no illusions of winning. Just like if I go to a movie. I don't care about the dollar value of the comps.They cost you far more than what you will receive. It is the perks that go along with the comps. I never have to wait in lines at restaurants, shows, etc. We get the best seats at all the shows, best rooms/suites, pampered, etc. Quite frankly it is those things that we enjoy.

People complain about how the casinos are tighter now than they were. That is true so the cost of gambling has gone up. So what is new? All entertainment costs have gone up a lot. In 1985, I could get the best seat in Jack Murphy stadium to see the San Diego Padres for $7.50. Those same seats in Petco Park now cost 10 times as much. In 1985, it cost $12.50 to go to Sea World in San Diego. It now costs over $50.00. So don't complain about greedy casinos like they are the only entertainment venue that has gone up in cost. Nbody has a right to be able to play. If one can't afford it than they shouldn't do it.

It is NOT the casino's responsibility to protect people from themselves. The casinos did NOT put people into financial stress. They did that themselves. Nobody forced them to gamble away all their money. I suppose they should ban alcaholic beverages because thousands of people become alcaholics. Some people are addictive by nature. That is not the casino's fault. They simply provide an entertainment venue that many people enjoy and handle responsibly. Anybody who treats it as anything other than entertainment is crazy.


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## SunSand (Oct 30, 2009)

In my city, Harrah's is not hurting at all, it has record business.  In Las Vegas, the strip was packed and so were the casino's.  The shows we attend were packed and the resturants were busy.   Sorry, if I don't buy into your sky is falling attitude.  If Harrah's can't make it in Las Vegas, then good bye, who cares anyway. Next!


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## jamstew (Oct 30, 2009)

I play strictly for entertainment. I *know* I'm not going to win, and I don't have a problem with setting limits. Heck, if I break even and I had a good time, it's a successful trip. I spent more money on three shows than I lost gambling on my last Vegas trip. A week in Disney World is every bit as expensive as a week in Vegas and, for me, even more addictive  I have an annual "travel & entertainment budget," and if I can take an occasional trip to Vegas within that budget without sacrificing something else really I want to do, I do it. If I just want to go somewhere and play the slots for a few hours, I'll drive an hour to Bossier City, LA, from my daughter's house, play a while and head back.

I agree with John that there are people who have problems with addiction, whether it be drugs, alcohol, or gambling. I'm fortunate not to be done of them. I have a very close friend who had a gambling problem, she just chose not to do it any more. People *can* make that choice.


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## pedro47 (Oct 31, 2009)

easyrider said:


> If the casinos want more players they need to drop the minimum bet. $25.00 min is too much for funsies.



Maybe, now the casinos needs to give better odds to the players than the house.


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## Phill12 (Oct 31, 2009)

Much of the casino losses are because of the down turn but most is caused by all the indian casino's now in California! (Why is it everytime I write my home state name I hear a voice saying it like our Gov?) 

 This is why I heard for last forty years that payoff's from casino's to California just to keep gambling out of the state made sense. 

 We most years spend July Fourth at our Lake Tahoe timeshare and gamble during our stay in Tahoe,Reno and Carson City as we visit these places. We always make two or three trips up to Reno because of comped nights at Atlantis or Peppermill and Harrah's. 
 I have offers now for these casino's plus Harrah's/Harveys and MontBlue in Lake Tahoe. I even have offers from The Silver Legacy in Reno and we stopped staying there ten years ago. This tells me they are trying everything to put people in the rooms with hope of getting them to gamble more.

 PHILL12


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## Elan (Oct 31, 2009)

I stopped going to Vegas long before the downturn.  And we don't have casinos locally.  I feel as though the casinos priced out the average gambler.  

  I used to go stay at the Hard Rock with my buddies.  After 1 trip we started getting postcards advertising $39-89 rooms (Fri and Say, not midweek).  We would often fly down and take advantage of these deals.  Then the postcards stopped coming.  When I'd get the gambling "itch" and went to look for rooms, they were running $250/nt, then $325, etc.  Blackjack table minimums went up 100% to 500%, etc.  

  Although I could still afford to go, it just wasn't a worthwhile use of my entertainment dollars.  For the cost of a couple nights in Vegas, I can buy 2 season tickets to watch the winningest college football team of the last decade.  A pretty easy choice, in my mind.  Most of my friends feel the exact same way. 

  A lot of the negative that the casinos are now experiencing is largely self-inflicted, IMO.


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## Robert D (Nov 1, 2009)

It's interesting reading all of the comments about the hard times the casinos are having and that you're doomed to lose when you  gamble.  I, like John, enjoy going to Vegas and gambling.  We also get comped but not to the extent that John does. We get free rooms at nice places in Vegas but don't get the best seats at the shows (or for that matter get comped at the big time shows except for some offers we receive).  I visit Vegas about 3 times / yr and from what I can tell, Vegas is definately hurting. I don't gamble anywhere else so I don't know about the Indian reservations or river boats.

Based on the considerable amount of time I've spent in Vegas the past 15 yrs., I'm continually amazed as to how little most people know about the games their playing, the odds (i.e. house advantage) of the various games, and the lack of any type of money management. Any game you play in the casino has an advantage to the house but some games and bets have a much lower house advantage. The only game I play is craps and from what I know about the various games, you can cut the house advantage to the lowest level of any game in the casino on the craps tables (less than .005) if you make the right bets and are patient (another trait that is usually lacking in most casino gamblers). If you also manage your money carefully, you can actually win money in Vegas or not lose that much, although there's nothing you can do to overcome the inherent house advantage.  When I talk about "money management", I mean that you need to set a point at which you will quit before you walk up to the table.  This would include if you win X amount or lose Y amount and when you hit that level, you quit.  The concept is that you need to set a realistic amount to win before you quit and not try to hit a home run every time.  If you get up a few hundred 3 times and quit, you've just won a fair amount of money that will fund a fair amount of losses. Most people will stand there until they loose it all or give back all of the amount they are up, and it's virtually impossible to leave a winner if you do so.


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## John Cummings (Nov 1, 2009)

pedro47 said:


> Maybe, now the casinos needs to give better odds to the players than the house.



Are you joking? The casinos are there to make money for them, not the players. Those beautiful palaces weren't built because of winners.


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## John Cummings (Nov 1, 2009)

Robert D said:


> It's interesting reading all of the comments about the hard times the casinos are having and that you're doomed to lose when you  gamble.  I, like John, enjoy going to Vegas and gambling.  We also get comped but not to the extent that John does. We get free rooms at nice places in Vegas but don't get the best seats at the shows (or for that matter get comped at the big time shows except for some offers we receive).  I visit Vegas about 3 times / yr and from what I can tell, Vegas is definately hurting. I don't gamble anywhere else so I don't know about the Indian reservations or river boats.
> 
> Based on the considerable amount of time I've spent in Vegas the past 15 yrs., I'm continually amazed as to how little most people know about the games their playing, the odds (i.e. house advantage) of the various games, and the lack of any type of money management. Any game you play in the casino has an advantage to the house but some games and bets have a much lower house advantage. The only game I play is craps and from what I know about the various games, you can cut the house advantage to the lowest level of any game in the casino on the craps tables (less than .005) if you make the right bets and are patient (another trait that is usually lacking in most casino gamblers). If you also manage your money carefully, you can actually win money in Vegas or not lose that much, although there's nothing you can do to overcome the inherent house advantage.  When I talk about "money management", I mean that you need to set a point at which you will quit before you walk up to the table.  This would include if you win X amount or lose Y amount and when you hit that level, you quit.  The concept is that you need to set a realistic amount to win before you quit and not try to hit a home run every time.  If you get up a few hundred 3 times and quit, you've just won a fair amount of money that will fund a fair amount of losses. Most people will stand there until they loose it all or give back all of the amount they are up, and it's virtually impossible to leave a winner if you do so.



Robert,

You are absolutely correct. I don't play table games anymore. I used to play a lot of black jack several years ago. I don't care for the ambiance at the tables now.

The same rules apply to playing slot/VP machines. Money management is extremely important. Know your casino and the machines. It usually takes me a day or so at a new casino to identify which machines are good. We always play when the casino is not crowded so we can move from machine to machine. Slot/VP machines are random and as such, you need to try to find one that is in its hot streak. If you can't, then quit for awhile and come back later. Never play back your winnings. The ticket system makes it much easier to manage your money than with coins. Set a cashout point. I use an incremental system so I can ride the machine while it is hot and get out if it goes cold. I keep all my tickets I cashout of the machines until we check out of the hotel and then I cash them at the cashier and take the money home.

Video Poker adds another dimension which is knowing the proper strategy for the game being played. This can alter the payback percentage by several points. There are books, tutor software, etc. that a person can use to learn the proper way to play all of the various Video Poker games. I am always amazed by the number of people playing Video Poker that don't have a clue what they are doing. I hear some of their comments which are absurd. Each game has its own particlular strategy.

In any event it is a lot of fun. Somebody mentioned something about not knowing how the Indian Casinos are doing. I do know that Harrah's Rincon in San Diego county has higher revenues and earnings than any of the 9 Harrah's properties in Las Vegas. They are down a little but not very much.


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## pianodinosaur (Nov 1, 2009)

John Cummings:

I appreciate your insights.  My brother-in-law loves to play Texas Hold-Em. He enters tournaments all the time.  Sometimes he wins and sometimes he does not.  Then again, if you want to play golf, you have to belong to the country club and pay dues.  If you want to go to the football game, you have to pay for parking and the tickets. If you want to go bowling, you pay for the use of the facility. If you want to go to the concert, you pay for the tickets. I enjoy Las Vegas because it offers the most entertainment for the least amount of money.


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## Robert D (Nov 1, 2009)

The one exception to what I said about the house always having the odds in their favor is full pay video poker machines.  I've never played the machines so don't know much about them but I've been told that if you play it perfectly and play the maximum coins (usually 4-5 $.25 plays), then the odds are in your favor by about 1%.  However, the place where it goes back into your favor is when you hit a royal flush, which doesn't come up much. Even on the $.25 VP full pay machines, I've been told you need to be prepared to get behind about $2,500 before you hit the royal flush.  That said, I don't think you'll find any full pay machines in the big name casinos like the MGM or Harah's properties in Vegas.  Probably only find them in the small local places off of the strip.

The things I like about craps are that it's a very simple game with no skill (other than knowing what to bet on and managing your money), you can relax and have fun with other people at the table, it has the best odds for the player of any game in the casino if you make the right bets, and it's a very slow game in that your money turns over much slower than black jack, machines, or any other game in the casino.  The casinos realize all this and that's why you earn the least amount of comps on the craps table.


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## rdober (Nov 1, 2009)

Easier said than done. I like to play VP when I visit LV and I know that the longer you play any game the likelyhood is that you are going to loose, I've played where I've won right at the get go and other times where it was just  getting some of my money back. I don't go 12 times a year maybe 3 which is fine for me, but I want to play when I am there. If I win right off the bat what am I suppose to do? Walk around, sit in the room enjoy the sights? I seen it all. I know the object is to win but when you go on vacation you want to play. It's a catch 22 situation. If I hit a big win the first day should I just wait for my flight home? I probably should but I can't. I came on vacation to play. I'm a Harrah's Totals Rewards player so they set it up where in order to get the comps you have to play. I get them so if I quit when I win and not give them the play then I pay for the room. You can't win, the longer you play you get the comps and the entertainment but most likey end up loosing. You win and quit, no entertainment, no comps and I spent all the money for airfare to sit around and wait for the flight home. I'm I wrong?


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## Robert D (Nov 2, 2009)

Machines are different than table games and since I never play the machines, I don't know how you would manage your money on machines but it might be similar.  The scenerio I use on craps is I buy in for X amount of chips with a goal of winning Y amount (usually about half what I bought in for). When I get to that point, I quit, and cash in my chips and take a break.  Then I buy back in for the same X amount as I did before with the same goal of winning Y.  I usually play until I reach my goal or lose the chips I bought in for (which is a lot less than I'm willing to lose for the entire trip). At craps you tend to go up and down and the idea is to quit and pocket the winnings when you're up.  Net affect is you try to hit singles instead of home runs.  My experience is it's a lot easier to hit 6 singles than one home run.  The house still has the edge over the long run but you give yourself a decent chance using this type of money management.


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## John Cummings (Nov 2, 2009)

Robert D said:


> The one exception to what I said about the house always having the odds in their favor is full pay video poker machines.  I've never played the machines so don't know much about them but I've been told that if you play it perfectly and play the maximum coins (usually 4-5 $.25 plays), then the odds are in your favor by about 1%.  However, the place where it goes back into your favor is when you hit a royal flush, which doesn't come up much. Even on the $.25 VP full pay machines, I've been told you need to be prepared to get behind about $2,500 before you hit the royal flush.  That said, I don't think you'll find any full pay machines in the big name casinos like the MGM or Harah's properties in Vegas.  Probably only find them in the small local places off of the strip.
> 
> The things I like about craps are that it's a very simple game with no skill (other than knowing what to bet on and managing your money), you can relax and have fun with other people at the table, it has the best odds for the player of any game in the casino if you make the right bets, and it's a very slow game in that your money turns over much slower than black jack, machines, or any other game in the casino.  The casinos realize all this and that's why you earn the least amount of comps on the craps table.



Robert,

The full pay Video Poker machines have a payback percentage from 99.5 - 101.5%, depending on the game, with max coin ( typically 5 ) bet and playing optimal strategy. It is not necessary to hit the Royal Flush in order to be a winner. In Jacks or Better, 2 pair contributes the most to the payback percentage. I have never heard of having to lose $2500 in order to hit a Royal Flush. Many of the Video Poker games, such as Joker Wild, Deuces Wild, Double Double Bonus, Shockwave, etc., have smaller jackpots as well as the Royal Flush. Shockwave has 2 full Jackpots, the Royal Flush ( 4000 ) and Shockwave ( 4000 ). Shockwave is won by gettting any 4 of a kind followed by another any 4 of a kind within the next 10 hands. Shockwave is my favorite. I typically will hit 3 shockwaves to every Royal Flush. Full Pay Shockwave has a pretty decent pay table with 100/11/8/5:1 for a straight flush, full house, flush, and straight. Full pay machines are hard to find though they do exist but not on the strip. Some of the California casinos and Las Vegas local casinos have them. The Paris has Shockwave VP that pays 100/10/7/5:1.

If you know the correct strategy VP is much better than the slots. Most casinos, including Harrah's properties, pay reward points at half the rate as the slots. At Harrah's you earn 1 point per $5.00 in on a slot machine whereas it is 1 point per $10.00 for VP machines. However, typically I earn more points faster at a lower cost on the Video Poker machines.

I don't like to play the table games anymore because I don't like having a bunch of people around me. I like to play my machine by myself where I zone out and it is just the machine and I. That is also why I never play when the casino is crowded.


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## John Cummings (Nov 2, 2009)

rdober said:


> Easier said than done. I like to play VP when I visit LV and I know that the longer you play any game the likelyhood is that you are going to loose, I've played where I've won right at the get go and other times where it was just  getting some of my money back. I don't go 12 times a year maybe 3 which is fine for me, but I want to play when I am there. If I win right off the bat what am I suppose to do? Walk around, sit in the room enjoy the sights? I seen it all. I know the object is to win but when you go on vacation you want to play. It's a catch 22 situation. If I hit a big win the first day should I just wait for my flight home? I probably should but I can't. I came on vacation to play. I'm a Harrah's Totals Rewards player so they set it up where in order to get the comps you have to play. I get them so if I quit when I win and not give them the play then I pay for the room. You can't win, the longer you play you get the comps and the entertainment but most likey end up loosing. You win and quit, no entertainment, no comps and I spent all the money for airfare to sit around and wait for the flight home. I'm I wrong?



Are you saying that if you hit a jackpot right away, you don't have any more money to play with? I go to the casino with a set amount as my bankroll. I divide that by the number of days I will be playing which gives me a daily amount to play with. I keep my winnings separate which is very easy to do with the tickets. I accumulate the tickets during the day and then combine them together when I quit for the day and put them in the safe. You can feed the smaller ones into a machine to combine them into a larger ticket. When we checkout of the hotel, I take the tickets from the safe and cash them in and go home.

This is my general plan. I will refine it to some extent depending on how the play goes but generally stick pretty close to it. As I said earlier, l use an incremental system. What that means is I set an upper limit where I will cash out and increase it as the credits go up. I will not allow it to drop back below the last incremental level without cashing it out. I always put a $20.00 bill into start. I typically set the first cashout level at $50.00 and then increase it by $50.00 as it hits the next level and so on. So it may go to $50.00 then $110 then $170 then back to $150 which is where I would cash it out. I will then play another $20 to make sure that it isn't still in a hot streak. If not, then I move on to another machine or quit for awhile depending how I feel at the time. If the machine never makes it to the first $50.00 then I move to another machine. The amount I set for the incremental value is determined by how much I bet each time which I keep at a constant value.

You should never play for comps. That is a losing battle. I play the same amount whether I get would get comped or not. Playing for comps will cost you far more than what the comps are worth. I am a Diamond Card mamber at Harrah's but also have the same status at many others because I like to play and the level of my play is never determined by the comps I may receive.


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## kjd (Nov 2, 2009)

It's interesting to hear that some people still think there are "hot machines".  In the old days I believe there was some truth to that because the number of positons on the paper rollers usually determined how often someone had a winner.  That was in the day when the machines actually dropped the money into the tray.  I have collected three such machines.  The jackpot odds on the machines (antiques) that I own are approximately 3,000 to 1.

Today's casino machines are quite different.  They are computerized.  In each machine there is something called a "random number generator."  It is a chip that continuously generates numbers which will determine whether you will win or lose.  Therefore, no machine is "due for a payout".  It is simply up to the casino to set the payout and whether you're lucky.

I do agree that the importance of money management cannot be overstated.  Everyone who gambles should have a system for managing their money.  I also agree that video poker has better odds than a lot of other games.  Certain video poker machines have a better payout than other vp machines.  The payout table is listed on each machine.  

Personally, I play either craps or blackjack.  I believe they give you the best chance of winning.


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## John Cummings (Nov 3, 2009)

kjd said:


> It's interesting to hear that some people still think there are "hot machines".  In the old days I believe there was some truth to that because the number of positons on the paper rollers usually determined how often someone had a winner.  That was in the day when the machines actually dropped the money into the tray.  I have collected three such machines.  The jackpot odds on the machines (antiques) that I own are approximately 3,000 to 1.
> 
> Today's casino machines are quite different.  They are computerized.  In each machine there is something called a "random number generator."  It is a chip that continuously generates numbers which will determine whether you will win or lose.  Therefore, no machine is "due for a payout".  It is simply up to the casino to set the payout and whether you're lucky.
> 
> ...



I have done software for slot/VP machines so am well aware how they work. Nevada state law and California regulations for class 3 gaming machines require that all machines must be random in their play. Every spin or deal must be a unique event not dependent on a previous event. In other words, the machine has no idea what it did before. Therefore back to back jackpots are possible and do happen. It has happened more than once for both my wife and I. Being random means that the machines can be cyclic meaning that they can run hot or cold. Anybody that has played very much knows the machines definitely do have hot and cold streaks. By moving around, hopefully you will catch a machine in its hot cycle. This hasn't changed since the days prior to the microprocessor and RNG ( random number generator ). The only difference is that the new machines are not affected by mechanical wear and tear. For the technical purists, it is true that a Random Number Generator can't be truly random but it comes very close.

The payback percentage is set at the factory according to what the casino ordered. The machines then have to be certified by the state. The casino cannot change the machine once it has been certified. So don't believe all those myths about how the casinos change the machines on certain days, etc. Payback percentages are determined over a long period of time, typically a year. The machine is constantly running as long as the power is turned on. The RNG spews out numbers constantly and when the spin or deal button are pressed, or other trigger mechanism, the numbers from the RNG are translated into actual cards in the case of Video Poker or reel stops for a slot machine. So what you receive is determined by the instant ( measured in microseconds or milliseconds ) that you trigger it. So rest assured that if somebody comes along and hits a jackpot on the machine you were just playing, does NOT mean you would have won it. In fact you would not have unless you pressed "spin" or "deal" at the exact instant that they did which is highly unlikely.

For the record, I play games because I enjoy them, not because of the odds on winning. For that same reason, We only play at casinos we like regardless of how loose or tight they may be.


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## John Cummings (Nov 3, 2009)

*Another interesting article.*

Recession Strikes Las Vegas


http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/recession-strikes-las-vegas/story?id=8974152


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## kjd (Nov 3, 2009)

John Cummings:  An excellent description of slot machine payout except for one thing.  I think you have confused luck with the realities of random number generation.  The odds of winning or losing don't change after each spin of the slot machine.  The odds remain exactly the same.  As you say, they are pre-set at the factory.

Therefore, changing machines does not improve your odds of winning. (Provided the machine is not broken)  Someone who wins two jackpots on two successive spins is lucky.  Nothing more than that.  Observing which machines are "hot" is pointless.


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## John Cummings (Nov 4, 2009)

kjd said:


> John Cummings:  An excellent description of slot machine payout except for one thing.  I think you have confused luck with the realities of random number generation.  The odds of winning or losing don't change after each spin of the slot machine.  The odds remain exactly the same.  As you say, they are pre-set at the factory.
> 
> Therefore, changing machines does not improve your odds of winning. (Provided the machine is not broken)  Someone who wins two jackpots on two successive spins is lucky.  Nothing more than that.  Observing which machines are "hot" is pointless.



Of course luck is a big factor. The luck is in sitting down at a machine that is in a hot cycle. Being cyclic is part of being random. If you were to chart a machines payback at various times, you would see it vary considerably. That is normal as the overall payback percentage is computed over a long period of time. You apparently do not play slots or VP or you would have seen machines in both hot and cold streaks. I am not observing which machines are hot, I am playing them or I move on. That is basic slot machine playing 101 that you can read in many books. I do not know if a machine is hot or cold until I sit down and play it.

The odds are determined by the seed value and range of numbers set at the factory. Any number can come up within the range.


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## cotraveller (Nov 4, 2009)

The description John Cummings gave of the way a slot machine works is what I have always heard.  Random number generators, cycles, hot machines, cold machines.  Yes to all of those things.

I play the machines for enjoyment and it is always more enjoyable to win than lose. I tend to play them the same way John described.  If the machine is paying I stay.  If it takes my money I move on to a different one. Of course since it is all random events, the cold machine I just left may become hot on the next spin and pay big jackpots to the next person who sits down there.  C'est la vie.

I play VP if I want to exercise the brain a little more, trying to remember which is the best play for the hand shown.  I know the basic strategy but I'm not a fanatic about it and probably play some of the offbeat hands wrong.  I win some, I lose some, I have a good time. I don't break the casino's bank, they don't break mine.

Sometimes I just sit back and people watch.  People talk to the machines, people rub their hands over the screen, people push the buttons up and down the row, people push the buttons lightly, people slam the buttons.  They do all kinds of weird things.  I had one person become irate when I sat down at a machine next to him and won a big jackpot on the first play.  He ranted and raved on about how he had been playing that machine for a long time and won nothing and then I came along and took his money.  I didn't say anything, I just cashed out and moved on to a more pleasant location.


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## Piscesqueen (Nov 4, 2009)

kjd said:


> It's interesting to hear that some people still think there are "hot machines".  In the old days I believe there was some truth to that because the number of positons on the paper rollers usually determined how often someone had a winner.  That was in the day when the machines actually dropped the money into the tray.  I have collected three such machines.  The jackpot odds on the machines (antiques) that I own are approximately 3,000 to 1.
> 
> Today's casino machines are quite different.  They are computerized.  In each machine there is something called a "random number generator."  It is a chip that continuously generates numbers which will determine whether you will win or lose.  Therefore, no machine is "due for a payout".  It is simply up to the casino to set the payout and whether you're lucky.
> 
> ...



I have worked at a casino (not Vegas though) for 11 years and know some secrets to how casino's operate and there are some 'Hot Machines' because some machines have a higher % payout than others. I of course, can't go into detail about that but there are some machines that payout better then others, it's just finding the right ones.


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## Piscesqueen (Nov 4, 2009)

*Not Everything is Bad in the Gaming Industy!*

I seen that a previous poster wrote a long comment about how casino's are 'bad' and that kind of hit a soft spot for me because I have worked at a casino for 11 years and have seen the bad and the good.  

I understand that people get addictions and that it can take a toll on people's livelyhood when it's out of control.  BUT, people chose on their own to walk into casino's; nobody is forced physically to put their money on the table. Just like alcoholics aren't forced to take that drink! Majority of casino's also have resources for Gambler's Anonymous that every customer could utilize.

Most casino's have a Compact within their states that requires them to give back to the community.  The casino I work for has donated MILLIONS to local schools and many other things that are NOT required of them by Compact. In the community that I live in, all children have school supplies and backpacks waiting for them on the first day of school; regardless of income (that's just one example of many). There is alot of good that can come out of gaming funds and I think alot of people would be surprised to see just how much goes back to the people from the gaming industry.

Casino's were built for profit and for *entertainment*. I think alot of people tend to forget that. In my opinion (and I may be biased because I work at a casino), casino's are no different than any other entertainment industry; television, movies, broadway, etc. 

I know how casino's operate and yes, they do operate to make money. It's surprises me how many people get mad at the casino's because they don't walk away rich.:hysterical:

I'm personally not a gambler but that's because I just don't have that good of luck. 

Even though I'm not a gambler, I go to Vegas every year with friends. I love to see the sights and party with the girls. Everytime we have gone, we NEVER pay for our rooms and none of us are big gamblers but Vegas is generous with their comps and it doesn't really take that much to get a 'free' room.

I know, I know, it's not really free! Trust me, I know how Complimentary Services operates; it's my job to know. But there are a couple ladies that I travel to Vegas with that enjoy to gamble a little here and there and their little bits are enough to get us the 'free' rooms.


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## John Cummings (Nov 4, 2009)

Piscesqueen said:


> I have worked at a casino (not Vegas though) for 11 years and know some secrets to how casino's operate and there are some 'Hot Machines' because some machines have a higher % payout than others. I of course, can't go into detail about that but there are some machines that payout better then others, it's just finding the right ones.




Do you work at the casino at Worley Idaho? I used to play there once a week when I was on a consulting project at Kaiser Aluminum in Spokane, WA from April - September 1996. I won a lot of money there from the old 8 line Indian video slots.


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## John Cummings (Nov 4, 2009)

cotraveller said:


> The description John Cummings gave of the way a slot machine works is what I have always heard.  Random number generators, cycles, hot machines, cold machines.  Yes to all of those things.
> 
> I play the machines for enjoyment and it is always more enjoyable to win than lose. I tend to play them the same way John described.  If the machine is paying I stay.  If it takes my money I move on to a different one. Of course since it is all random events, the cold machine I just left may become hot on the next spin and pay big jackpots to the next person who sits down there.  C'est la vie.
> 
> ...



I have also marveled at some of the things people do when playing the slots. One thing I cannot stand is people that bang on the machine. It is very annoying. I remember this lady that played regularly at Barona Casino in San Diego, CA. She always took a bunch of small stuffed animals and placed them all over the machine she was playing.


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## Piscesqueen (Nov 4, 2009)

John Cummings said:


> I have also marveled at some of the things people do when playing the slots. One thing I cannot stand is people that bang on the machine. It is very annoying. I remember this lady that played regularly at Barona Casino in San Diego, CA. She always took a bunch of small stuffed animals and placed them all over the machine she was playing.



I know EXACTLY what you mean, you should see some of the crazy things I see everyday from supersticious gamblers; it really is quite entertaining.

I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE BANG ON THE MACHINES 

It's rude to those around you and it hurts the machines as well. So many buttons and touch screens have had to be replaced because of bangers They make me angry!:annoyed: And believe me, it doesn't make the payout any different:hysterical:


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