# Delta Fuel Surcharge for Award Tix



## aka Julie (Jun 27, 2008)

Just got this e-mail from Delta:

_Escalating fuel prices continue to impact our world economy, everyday life and the airline industry. Due to continued, unprecedented fuel costs, we will add the following fuel surcharge to Award Tickets originating from the U.S. and Canada, effective August 15, 2008: 


$25 for Award Travel between the 50 states and Canada 
$50 for Award Travel between the 50 states/Canada and all international destinations
This was a difficult but essential decision to ensure we are doing everything possible to offset the cost of fuel which has nearly doubled in the last year. This fuel surcharge will not impact any existing ticketed Award itineraries or any future Award Tickets issued prior to August 15, 2008, regardless of the date of travel. We hope this is temporary, and should fuel prices subside from current levels, we will reevaluate this surcharge. 

We are committed to making SkyMiles® the best frequent flyer program in the industry and providing you with the most benefits and rewards. We will continue to expand the destinations and opportunities for Award Travel and strengthen the program as we prepare for our proposed merger with Northwest Airlines®. Additionally, we will keep you updated on the launch of our new multi-tiered Award program and other key initiatives over the next 60 days._

The "added" charges continue.


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## KevJan (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm sure glad I got my tickets to Cabo last month, even though I'm not going until March.


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## x3 skier (Jun 27, 2008)

Even with those charges, $50 plus taxes is still a lot less than business fares to Europe. And yes, I can get them in the off season.:whoopie: 

Cheers


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## Carolinian (Jun 27, 2008)

I knew this was just a matter of time.  DL started whacking its Europe-based members for $200+ surcharges on trans-Atlantic award tickets originating in Europe back in January.

I had almost burned through my remaining SkyPiles from my days as a DL Gold Medallion, but now these pirates want to subject my NW Worldperks miles to their lousy ripoffs, too.

All NW flyers should write the Justice Department and oppose the DL takeover of NW.

DL has long been the least customer-friendly airline in the US, and it really shows.


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## x3 skier (Jun 27, 2008)

Carolinian said:


> DL has long been the least customer-friendly airline in the US, and it really shows.



I was just reading the JD Power ranking of Legacy airlines for customer satisfaction as reported in the 23 June issue of Aviation Week and Space Technology. page 20 is as follows:

Continental and Alaska tied for first
Delta
Air Canada
American
US Airways
and tied for last, Northwest and United

The US LCC's were rated as follows
Jet Blue
Southwest
Frontier
Air Tran

Cheers


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## Carolinian (Jun 28, 2008)

JD Power obviously was not concentrating on sophisticated flyers or frequent flyers who fly enough to be in the elite programs.   DL is the king of the ''junk fees'', its upgrade percentage is MUCH lower than NW, and it is the airline that is always trying to cheat frequent flyers is some way whether it was the less than full milage on some tickets back in the www.saveskymiles.com days or the new proposal to charge part of fare on an ''award'' ticket.

If a flyer is concerned mainly about IFE and only flies domestically, yes DL has better domestic IFE than NW.  However NW blows DL away on trans-Atlantic IFE.


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## x3 skier (Jun 28, 2008)

Carolinian said:


> JD Power obviously was not concentrating on sophisticated flyers or frequent flyers who fly enough to be in the elite programs.



I'll remember that the next time they ask my opinion about anything.  

Cheers


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## Carolinian (Jun 28, 2008)

The current Air Poll at Flyer Talk is on this very subject, and over 60% say they would change ff programs based solely on an airline imposing a fuel surcharge on awards tickets.  I hope DL gets clobbered on this hosing of their ff members.


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## Steamboat Bill (Jun 28, 2008)

Carolinian said:


> The current Air Poll at Flyer Talk is on this very subject, and over 60% say they would change ff programs based solely on an airline imposing a fuel surcharge on awards tickets.  I hope DL gets clobbered on this hosing of their ff members.



I am NOT coming to Delta's defense as most of their planes are OLD, but what are airlines to do about the 100% increase in fuel costs in the past 2 years?

I noticed that it is extremely difficult to get any SkySaver flights at the standard 25k mile cost as most routs now cost 37500-50,000 miles per ticket even at 331 days out.

It seems that a combination of fees and point inflation are being used to offset higher fuel costs.


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## tombo (Jun 28, 2008)

Delta is my favorite airline, so I agree with JD Powers . Delta is trying to survive in tough times and they are having to rasie fares and increase the amount of frequent flyer miles needed to get round trip tickets to try and remain profitable. Every air line is going to have to cut services, raise costs, and limit frequent flyer seats to survive the increased price of jet fuel. To run a business without adapting to changing business costs would be suicide for any company.

Northwest might go broke this year unless Delta buys them from what I have read.  If an air line goes bankrupt but keeps their frequent flyer program intact with no changes, then the frequent flyer miles will not be any good since the carrier will be out of business like many airlines have done recently. 

I must not be sophisticated because the list from top to bottom sounds like the way I would rank the airlines based on my experience and preferences with the exceptions that I would rate delta ahead of continental and I have no experience with Alaska so obviously I would have placed delta ahead of them. I might choose my credit card based on the frequent flyer program they offer, but I choose my airline based on their record of on-time flights, frequency of flights, flights offered to locations I want to visit, availability of convenient travel times and dates, and most importantly the cost of the flights the air line offers.

northwest did finish top 3 in this article rating in order which airlines they think will file bankruptcy this year as listed by tripso.com:

"A bankruptcy watch is no academic exercise. When your airline goes Chapter 11, it could affect everything from the routes it flies to your rights as a passengers.

Here are the contestants, in the order they’re likely to file:

1. United Airlines. Its executives are scrambling to come up with a business model that will hold up to the stresses of $128 per barrel crude oil and a sluggish economy. But it’s not looking good.

2. US Airways It was listed as one of the “most vulnerable” carriers by airline analyst Jamie Baker, who added, “there will be blood.” Whoa.

3. Northwest Airlines The other airline mentioned by Baker? You guessed it. And with Chief Executive Doug Steenland predicting a merger with Delta Airlines would produce a smaller company, thanks to rising fuel costs, it doesn’t take an airline analyst to know that on its own, Northwest may be doomed to bankruptcy court."




JP morgan ranks Northwest 2nd most likely to file bankruptcy this year:

May 30, 2008
Airline bankruptcy ranking
J.P. Morgan recently issued a report looking at the liquidity and balance sheets of the major airlines, and included a ranking of bankruptcy risk.

Here's the breakdown, ranked from most likely to file Chapter 11 to least likely, according to the firm:

U.S. Airways 
Northwest 
United 
American 
Continental 
JetBlue 
AirTran 
Delta 
Alaska 
Southwest


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## Carolinian (Jun 29, 2008)

Actually you have it backwards between NW and DL on their financial position. NW has the best cash position of any US-based legacy airline, and is in a much better position as to fuel efficient newer planes than DL after having replaced its TATL fleet with modern A-330's and being the first domestic carrier scheduled to take delivery of the super fuel efficient B-787 Dreamliner.

DL started whacking its cusromers based in Europe for surcharges of over $200 on R/T TATL tickets back in January, the only US based carrier to do so.  You can expect a similar figure for customers based in the US before long.

The whole concept of award tickets was to use seats that would be vacant anyway to reward good customers.  An empty seat would not contribute anything to costs, so their is no ''need'' to charge those good customer whom the airline promised ''free'' seats.  And, yes, DL is one of those airlines which for years specifically used the word ''free'' in its promotion of its ff program.  So in adopting this policy DL has made itself out to be a thoroughly dishonest liar.

DL is the king of ''junk fees''.  I used to be a DL gold medallion so I am well familiar with how they operate.  The prospect of them grabbing my Worldperks miles absolutely makes me sick.

What airlines need to do to survive is to charge appropriate fares, not play dishonest shell games with ''fuel surcharges'' that they place on the ''tax'' line. Fuel is not an add-on. Planes have to have it to fly.  It is an essential part of the basic product.  It is about as honest as a car dealer quoting a price on a new car and then adding an ''engine surcharge''.  Or offering a free loaner during auto servicing but popping you with an ''engine surcharge'' for use of the loaner.


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## Steamboat Bill (Jun 29, 2008)

Carolinian said:


> What airlines need to do to survive is to charge appropriate fares, not play dishonest shell games with ''fuel surcharges'' that they place on the ''tax'' line. Fuel is not an add-on. Planes have to have it to fly.  It is an essential part of the basic product.  It is about as honest as a car dealer quoting a price on a new car and then adding an ''engine surcharge''.  Or offering a free loaner during auto servicing but popping you with an ''engine surcharge'' for use of the loaner.



Excellent point...One of my flights to the Caribbean had more surcharges than the base price of the ticket (Spirit).

We should also stop hotels from adding on mandatory nightly fees for newspapers, telephone calls, and workout room. Just include them and add it to the advertised price.


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## Carolinian (Jun 29, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> Excellent point...One of my flights to the Caribbean had more surcharges than the base price of the ticket (Spirit).
> 
> We should also stop hotels from adding on mandatory nightly fees for newspapers, telephone calls, and workout room. Just include them and add it to the advertised price.



Actually, a fuel surcharge for an airline ticket is probably more like a hotel adding a surcharge for the bed.


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## Carolinian (Jun 29, 2008)

Great, so we're supposed to listen to the same boneheads who said subprime mortgages were a great investment.

I am particularly struck by the really lightweight analysis in your detailed quote.  I don't see a thing about cash position, fuel efficiency of their fleet, route networks, CASM, load factors, or any of the real factors that a real analysis would include.  Using the fact that NW leaders, for personal reasons, stampeded for the DL takeover is not a sound basis for an analysis.

What really drove this merger / takeover was a huge ''pump and dump'' scheme that has failed spectacularly.  After the bankruptcies, the main stockholders of each airline were former creditors who got stock in the new carriers in the bankruptcy.  These guys controlled the boards and would rather have cash.  After DL execs fought off the US takeover, much to the discomfort of some of these guys, they had to promise them to do their own takeover of some other airline.  The idea was that a merger euphoria would send stock prices up and give them an opportunity to unload.  With both boards controlled by people of this sort, they thought they had their opportunity.  Add in the fact that NW president Dougie Steenland had a big golden parachute which would expire if he didn't get a merger soon.  Well the ''pump and dump'' didn't work.  The broad market saw this takeover as bad for both airlines, and instead of a strock price spike from a merger euphoria as expected, the stocks of both airlines took a nosedive after the merger / takeover was announced.  That serves those scheming scoundrels right, but still leaves passengers and employees saddled with a bad merger.

I remember when DL used to have an excellent ff program, but then they started their ''enhancements'' (corporate speak for takeaways from customers) starting with eliminating the SWU's for elites.  The worst hosing of customers came when Rob Borden was running the DL SkyMiles program, and customers were so outraged with his severe cuts they fought back with www.saveskymiles.com   Customers put enough of a hurting on DL, that they reversed course, restored Borden's cuts and got rid of Borden.  Now SkyMiles chief Jeff Robertson is at it again, downgrading SkyMiles, but on a slower course this time.  I bailed out of DL as a Gold Medallion back in the Rob Borden reign of terror and have found NW to be a far superior program, even better than the pre-Borden period at DL.  Having my valued Worldperks miles downgraded to SkyMiles and placed at the tender mercies of a jerk like Robertson is a real bummer.




tombo said:


> Delta is my favorite airline, so I agree with JD Powers . Delta is trying to survive in tough times and they are having to rasie fares and increase the amount of frequent flyer miles needed to get round trip tickets to try and remain profitable. Every air line is going to have to cut services, raise costs, and limit frequent flyer seats to survive the increased price of jet fuel. To run a business without adapting to changing business costs would be suicide for any company.
> 
> Northwest might go broke this year unless Delta buys them from what I have read.  If an air line goes bankrupt but keeps their frequent flyer program intact with no changes, then the frequent flyer miles will not be any good since the carrier will be out of business like many airlines have done recently.
> 
> ...


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## x3 skier (Jun 29, 2008)

I find it interesting that anyone who has a different opinion than Carolinian on Delta or Northwest is either unsophisticated or a bonehead, according to posts 6 and 14. 

Me, I suppose I will "cling to my guns and religion" so to speak, until Frequent Flyer Programs return to the "good old days" and oil returns to $30 a barrel which I suspect will be in the year 2308. In the meantime, I fly when I have to or want to on an airline I prefer regardless of other's opinions and if I don't like the service or price, I won't fly. 

Cheers


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## Dave M (Jun 29, 2008)

Steve has strong negative opinions about DL and he repeats those opinions often on this forum. That doesn't necessarily make those opinions factual, although he sometimes presents them as though they are.

As an example, Steve states that although DL for years - just like other airlines - touted its FF tickets as being "free", in instituting this new fee, "DL has made itself out to be a thoroughly dishonest liar." What Steve misses is that DL never promised that the FF tickets would forever be free. In fact, the T&C of the SkyMiles program, since inception over 25 years ago, have clearly stated that DL can change or discontinue the SkyMiles program at any time.


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## Twinkstarr (Jun 29, 2008)

Gordon Bethune, former CEO of Continental, thinks USAir, United and Amercian have the highest chance of filing in the near term. Heard this earlier this month from him on CNBC.

I'm a  NWA fan, been a Worldperk member since 1987 and flying out of DTW it's my airline of choice.  But I think there are a few things they could do better.

 Flew DL to Salt Lake City and really liked that I could pick my seats when I bought my tickets(hello NWA, I hate having to wait until 90 days). Also liked DL's online bag check(we're usually a carryon family) very quick. Unlike that cluster I run into at McNamara.


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## x3 skier (Jun 29, 2008)

Dave M said:


> Steve has strong negative opinions about DL and he repeats those opinions often on this forum.



I think I detected that. :rofl: 

Cheers


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## tombo (Jun 29, 2008)

Steve seems to feel that his opinions are correct no matter what facts are presented. 

J D Powers is a company that specializes in customer satisfaction ratings on everything from cars to air lines. In their June 23rd ranking of the legacy carriers they ranked Delta as 3rd best in customer satisfaction, and Northwest tied for worst customer satifaction of any legacy carrier. Of course Steve feels that he knows better and only "sophisticated flyers" should have been polled. I don't know of a single air line who can stay in business only making the "elite" flyers happy, but apparently Northwest can.  J D powers makes a lot of money ranking things like airlines and autos for Ford, GM, United, Continental etc. Since he is much better at rating customer satisfaction than the experts, he needs to issue his lists and he should get rich. I can see the ad now, Northwest is the best airline in the world as ranked by Steve. All carriers will quit using J D Powers now that the Steve rankings are out. Of course those rankings are based on pure opinion with no polls or factual basis, but they are correct.

Steve's quote:

"I am particularly struck by the really lightweight analysis in your detailed quote. I don't see a thing about cash position, fuel efficiency of their fleet, route networks, CASM, load factors, or any of the real factors that a real analysis would include. Using the fact that NW leaders, for personal reasons, stampeded for the DL takeover is not a sound basis for an analysis."


I didn't give a detailed quote, if you want that research JP Morgan for the detailed version be my guest. However here is the snippet summarizing their analysis of the major air lines to determine who is most likely to go bankrupt.

"Airline bankruptcy ranking
J.P. Morgan recently issued a report looking at the liquidity and balance sheets of the major airlines, and included a ranking of bankruptcy risk."

As far as the cash position you feel is missing, liquidity and balance sheet analysis should cover that.



When you combine the facts that many "expert air line analysts" are picking Northwest as one of the top 3 Legacy Carriers likely to file Bankruptcy with the J D Powers ranking of Northwest as the airline with the worst customer satisfaction rating of any legacy carrier, you have to feel that the end of Northwest is near barring some major changes.

Of course with the weak research of JP Morgan and airline analyst Jamie Baker predicting the demise of Northwest, maybe it will stop Delta from buying them. If Delta doesn't buy Northwest, most experts (other than Steve) feel that Northwest won't survive.  If the "merger" does or doesn't happen,I will still be flying on Delta.  If the merger doesn't occur then Northwest will likely become another TWA, a distant memory.


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## Talent312 (Jun 29, 2008)

tombo said:


> .... If the merger doesn't occur then Northwest will likely become another TWA, a distant memory.



Fans of NWA can bay at the moon all they want, the reality is that, one way or another, it will soon be a distant memory, like my favorite dear-departed airline, National (1934-1991).


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## x3 skier (Jun 29, 2008)

My favorite was the long departed Piedmont, eaten alive by US Air. When I saw a US Air 737 (or was it an Airbus, don't remember) painted in Piedmont Livery, my heart skipped a beat.

Bad things happen to good airlines and good things happen to bad airlines but in today's oil price market, bad things happen to all airlines (unless they chose wisely in fuel hedges which will eventually vanish anyway).

BTW, I had a friend who was a pilot for National, then Pan Am and finally retired from United. He liked National the best but the whims of seniority and reductions made him somewhat of a vagabond until United.

Have another pilot friend who retired from Delta and he is always grousing about the changes since he retired. Happy enough when flying long hauls for them but as an Former Marine, he has to have something to grouse about.

Cheers


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## Twinkstarr (Jun 29, 2008)

x3 skier said:


> Bad things happen to good airlines and good things happen to bad airlines but it today's oil price market, bad things happen to all airlines (unless they chose wisely in fuel hedges which will eventually vanish anyway).
> 
> Cheers




Good point.


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## Carolinian (Jun 29, 2008)

Well, now thats a real straightforward business practice now isn't it?  Say one thing loud and it public and then have some fine print hidden away to allow you to cheat those customers duped by your advertising.  In the world of consumer protection law it is called ''unfair'' and ''deceptive'' and it is also called ''illegal''.

If you want to read up on how DL has jerked around its frequent flyers in the past, take a look at www.saveskymiles.com  Now, it is round two.




Dave M said:


> Steve has strong negative opinions about DL and he repeats those opinions often on this forum. That doesn't necessarily make those opinions factual, although he sometimes presents them as though they are.
> 
> As an example, Steve states that although DL for years - just like other airlines - touted its FF tickets as being "free", in instituting this new fee, "DL has made itself out to be a thoroughly dishonest liar." What Steve misses is that DL never promised that the FF tickets would forever be free. In fact, the T&C of the SkyMiles program, since inception over 25 years ago, have clearly stated that DL can change or discontinue the SkyMiles program at any time.


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## tombo (Jun 29, 2008)

Those dang lying air lines. Read the fine print hidden away which contains the rules and conditions straight off of the  Northwest web site. You do have to search to find them as Northwest kind of has them hidden.

"WorldPerks is Your Path to Award Travel

WorldPerks is simple, convenient and free to join, and allows you to navigate to award travel at your own pace.      


Benefits

Earn Miles

Redeem Miles

Buy & Gift Miles

Elite Program

Managing Miles

Terms & Conditions

Directory


   General Program Terms & Conditions

Northwest has the right to terminate the WorldPerks program at any time.
Northwest may change the WorldPerks program rules, regulations, benefits, conditions of participation or mileage levels for awards, tickets and cities served, in whole or in part, at any time without notice, even though changes may affect the value of the mileage already accumulated. Northwest may change or terminate program partners, withdraw, limit, modify or cancel any award, increase the mileage required for any award, modify or regulate the transferability of awards or benefits, add an unlimited number of blackout dates or limit the number of seats available to any or all destinations. Northwest has the final say as to whether an itinerary qualifies for WorldPerks travel awards.
WorldPerks miles have no expiration date. However, consistent with the general terms and conditions of the WorldPerks program, Northwest Airlines reserves the right to change the WorldPerks program at any time without notice, including imposition of expiration limits or reactivation fees. If a WorldPerks member’s account does not have any mileage earning or redemption activity within three consecutive years, the account is subject to termination, including forfeiture of all accrued mileage. "



Gee, in the above rules Northwest says that they can terminate points at any time, change the rules, benefits, and levels of miles needed for awards at any time without notice even though changes may affect the value of mileage already accumulated,limit the number of seats available, and add an unlimited number of blackout dates among other things. 

I am sure that even though it is specifically stated in writing on their web site that they have the right to do these things that Steve knows for sure that that they will never do any of these things. If they were sure that they were never going to do any of these things, they wouldn't have put the conditions into their program. The times, they are a changin............


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## Carolinian (Jun 29, 2008)

You might try reading the NW board at Flyer Talk, skipping a few management shills who seem to always take a knee-jerk pro-management position.

You also don't seem to understand the value elites to airlines.  These are mostly the business travellers who pay the highest ticket prices.  Airlines make a lot more money off of elites than they do off of Ma and Pa Kettle.  What jerked DL management back into line during the Rob Borden fiasco was not so much the ads in USA Today or the billboards, but the fact that elites were deserting them as a result of their anti-customer actions.  They had to stop the bleeding of their elites so they made Borden walk the plank.

As far as which airline is best, one has to look at the parameters.  What categories matter?  That can be skewed lots of way depending on what one looks at, and what group one surveys.  Often an airline may have better international service than domestic or vice versa.  Comparing DL and NW, some areas may be subjective but some are not:
1) NW offers more bonus miles to low and high tier elites but is the same for mid-tier.
2) DL has much better domestic IFE
3) NW has much better international IFE
4) NW has more domestic upgrades for elites than DL
5) DL has far more ''junk fees'' (advantage: NW)
6) NW has unlimited free booze in coach on TATL flights, DL only gives one drink free
7) DL charges fuel surcharges as much as $200+ on award tickets; NW does not. (advantage: NW)
8) NW's main European gateway, AMS, is a much more user friendly airport than DL's main European gateway, CDG
9) NW has a much newer international fleet than DL and would be even farther ahead if the new Boeing 787 Dreamliners, for which NW is the first domestic carrier scheduled to take delivery, had not been delayed by Boeing.

Maybe IFE matters more than ff programs in Powers surveys and maybe they survey more domestic than international flyers.  And of course, some may never have even compared ff programs.  I know I myself did not that much until the actions of Rob Borden at DL made me take a look around.

If you want to see how passengers feel about these fuel surcharges on award tickets, one survey you need to take a look at the the Air Poll that has been up about a month over at Flyer Talk.  Hint: most passengers don't like it at all.

As to best airline ''in the world'', we are not talking about the world, only US based carriers.  As I have posted numerous times, in terms of flight experiece, just about any European legacy airline beats just about any US airline, but in terms of ff programs, the European legacies are now really hosing their frequent flyers.  The best bet is flying a code share on European metal with a domestic flight number, so you get the best of both worlds, European service in the air and full domestic flight miles.  Actually, there are also some Asian and Middle Eastern airlines that beat the pants off of any US-based carrier.  Heck, two of the lesser European airlines I have flown on recently, Turkish Airlines and Moldavian Airlines, even offered free meals, free alocoholic drinks, and a choice of complimentary newspapers in coach on short haul flights.  How long has it been since ANY US-based airline did any of that on short haul flights?  No, neither NW not any US-based airline comes anywhere close to being best in the world, although their ff programs do often beat their competitors.  It often comes down to what aspects of an airline one values more.

While you cited Morgan, the one you saw fit to quote was from another source in your post.  In defending your position you are taking my reference to the other source and applying it to Morgan.  But after the subprime debacle, how much credibility to such people have anyway? With the price of fuel being a big factor these days, even a layman should be able to see that the airline with the newer more fuel efficient planes, especially on its longhaul routes (NW) would have the advantage.  With money always a factor, cash position (cash on hand compared to upcoming obligations) would also even to a layman seem to be a key factor, and the one with the better cash position (NW) would have the advantage.

Of course, with those pushing for the takeover there has been all sorts of muddying of the waters lately.  A good example is huge ''losses'' announced by both DL and NW over the winter.  Funny thing, when one looks beyond the headlines, one finds that in both case they chose to take massive writedowns of ''good will'' in that quarter which created huge paper losses but only minor real-world losses.  Now with new accounting rules, I am sure than this must have been permissable since their accountants probably don't care to be wearing orange jump suits, but it almost certain was an opportunistic move to try to stampede regulators and politicians toward the merger with the impact of the headlines.  Both airlines had put a big number for good will on their balance sheets coming out of bankruptcy.  So did United, but funny thing!  Even though United was in a much worse real money loss that quarter, it did NOT write down its good will at all!  That is a huge red flag.

If the takeover is thwarted, NW will still be flying long after DL is history.  While I have consistently opposed airline mergers on anti-trust grounds, in retrospect, I wish I had supported the merger of DL and US. Having spend too many years as a DL Gold Medallion, I know the beast well enough to know that it would have fit like a glove with US.




tombo said:


> Steve seems to feel that his opinions are correct no matter what facts are presented.
> 
> J D Powers is a company that specializes in customer satisfaction ratings on everything from cars to air lines. In their June 23rd ranking of the legacy carriers they ranked Delta as 3rd best in customer satisfaction, and Northwest tied for worst customer satifaction of any legacy carrier. Of course Steve feels that he knows better and only "sophisticated flyers" should have been polled. I don't know of a single air line who can stay in business only making the "elite" flyers happy, but apparently Northwest can.  J D powers makes a lot of money ranking things like airlines and autos for Ford, GM, United, Continental etc. Since he is much better at rating customer satisfaction than the experts, he needs to issue his lists and he should get rich. I can see the ad now, Northwest is the best airline in the world as ranked by Steve. All carriers will quit using J D Powers now that the Steve rankings are out. Of course those rankings are based on pure opinion with no polls or factual basis, but they are correct.
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Jun 29, 2008)

I never said NW or any other airline did not play the same game, but so far DL is the only one to make a major change that structurally devalues miles already earned by charging for part of the ticket cost which was supposed to be free.  There are always going to be some minor changes in any program rules.





tombo said:


> Those dang lying air lines. Read the fine print hidden away which contains the rules and conditions straight off of the  Northwest web site. You do have to search to find them as Northwest kind of has them hidden.
> 
> "WorldPerks is Your Path to Award Travel
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Jun 29, 2008)

*Flyer Talk Air Poll*

This Air Poll started May 30 and is about over, but here are the results so far:

Would you change frequent flyer programs solely based on additional fees such as a fuel surcharge for awards?

Yes  60.8%
No    39.2%

What are the first words out of your mouth if I tell you that award fuel surcharges can be nearly $400

60.2%   $%&@!#$$
26.1%   your kidding . . .
 6.6%    OMG (if text messaging)
 7.1%    hey it's cheaper than buying a ticket

What do you think about the additional fee (fuel surcharge) on flight awards?

40.7%   I already paid the extra fuel charge when earning the miles, why should I have to pay again?
36.4%   Whatever happened to my free award?
17.9%   Reasonable, given the current cost of oil and jet fuel
 5.5%    not that big of a deal

This poll was mostly taken BEFORE the DL announcement.


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## Dave M (Jun 29, 2008)

Carolinian said:


> Well, now thats a real straightforward business practice now isn't it?  Say one thing loud and it public and then have some fine print hidden away to allow you to cheat those customers duped by your advertising.  In the world of consumer protection law it is called ''unfair'' and ''deceptive'' and it is also called ''illegal''.


Changing the terms of FF programs seems pretty straightforward to me. It has been for many years. Most of the previous changes have been in the nature of devaluations of points, by requiring more FF miles for specific awards. The legal issue of making changes to FF programs was long ago resolved by the AA lawsuit.

Sure, this change is a different kind of devaluation. It's a cash charge rather than an increase in required FF miles. 

I didn't say I like it. But I certainly understand the need for it.

But if, in instituting this new fee, "DL has made itself out to be a thoroughly dishonest liar", it would be helpful if you could provide the back-up as to what promises DL has broken with this new fee. Thus far, it seems that you have made an allegation that seems way over the top and unsupported.


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## Talent312 (Jun 29, 2008)

Dave M said:


> Changing the terms of FF programs seems pretty straightforward to me. It has been [the same] for many years. Most of the previous changes have been in the nature of devaluations of points, by requiring more FF miles for specific awards. The legal issue of making changes to FF programs was long ago resolved by the AA lawsuit.



As a consumer, sure, I don't like it, but it seems to me that adjustments in  FF programs in light of rising jet fuel prices and other costs is not entirely irrational nor unexpected.  What is irrational is expecting the airlines to make no changes, notwithstanding the new paradigm.


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## Carolinian (Jun 29, 2008)

When an airline gets its customers business by telling them that a reward is ''free'' as DL's promotion of its SkyMiles program has for years, and after the customers have done their part by partronizing the airline, the airline suddenly tried to change the rules so that the reward is no longer free, then they have in fact obtained the customers business by fraud.  If they made a change only propectively for new miles earned, that would be fair game, but retroactively changing the terms of miles earned under previous promises is simply dishonest.

Is it also illegal?  Under state consumer protection laws, it would likely be yes, but airlines are under federal rules.  Some on Flyer Talk are talking of suing and I hope someone does.  From what I read there, an AA change in its program in the 1980s was subject of a state lawsuit, and a motion to dismiss the claims which were presented as both violation of Illinois consumer protection law and breach of contract was argued all the way to the US Supreme court, which ruled that the case could proceed on the breach of contract claim but not the state consumer protection claim.  AA then waved a white flag and settled, reversing the ff change that was the basis of the lawsuit.  The argument that the T&C were an unenforcible contract of adhestion was apparently presented in the case, but never specifically ruled on by the courts.

What will be next for the airlines?  A pilot surcharge if wages go up?

And what about other reward programs and other enticements?  Will hotel programs institute a bed surcharge?  Will the free loaner programs in some auto warrnaties suddenly come with an engine surcharge?

Changing the rules for miles already earned is a far different thing from changing the rules prospectively in a program.  What makes it even worse is that if their takeover of NW goes through, then they will change the rules even for miles earned under another, more honest airline.  The fact that NW passengers will be subject to this crap makes it far worse.

For those who think DL is a pro-customer airline, there is one other objective fact to consider.  There have only been two US legacy airlines to have screwed their ff customers so badly that the customers had to rise up, organize, fight the airline, and make them back down.  One was the USAirways ''cockroaches'' ( www.ffocus.org ).  The other was www.saveskymiles.com at Delta.

When DL started whacking its EU-based customers for surcharges of over $200 on TATL award tickets back in January, I warned on these boards that it would be coming to US-based customers, too.  Some of the DL supporters did not want to belive it, here or at Flyer Talk, where I also posted it, but now it is happening, and I'll bet dollars to donuts the amounts of these charges DL  will soon rise to the levels DL is imposing in Europe.




Dave M said:


> Changing the terms of FF programs seems pretty straightforward to me. It has been for many years. Most of the previous changes have been in the nature of devaluations of points, by requiring more FF miles for specific awards. The legal issue of making changes to FF programs was long ago resolved by the AA lawsuit.
> 
> Sure, this change is a different kind of devaluation. It's a cash charge rather than an increase in required FF miles.
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Jun 30, 2008)

Bethune has a lot better handle on the aviation industry than most of the Wall Street based analysts.




Twinkstarr said:


> Gordon Bethune, former CEO of Continental, thinks USAir, United and Amercian have the highest chance of filing in the near term. Heard this earlier this month from him on CNBC.


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## Jimster (Jun 30, 2008)

*Delta*

I would weigh in on this only to go on record to say I find Delta's action deplorable at least.  I am with Dave in believing that is bordering on illegal.


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## x3 skier (Jun 30, 2008)

I wonder what happened to *aka Julie* who started this thread?  

I actually flew back in the days before FF programs and survived without them. If they disappear, its been a great ride. If they don't, great. If they change, I will not loose any sleep over having to pay $50 to $200 more than I used to for a $3000 to $5000 biz class ticket. Times change and one adapts or one does not.

I have a few worries but one of them is not what DL, NW, AA, US or any other airline does with my FF Miles. :zzz:

Cheers


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## Dave M (Jun 30, 2008)

Carolinian said:


> If they made a change only propectively for new miles earned, that would be fair game, but retroactively changing the terms of miles earned under previous promises is simply dishonest.


Then presumably, you and other elite flyers know that all of the major airlines have been dishonest for over 20 years. Why? Because the airlines have routinely engaged in "retroactively changing the terms of miles earned under previous promises". They have made hundreds of devaluations to FF miles over the years by requiring more miles for various individual awards, continuing with such changes this year. 

Why are you so suddenly upset about this change compared to the other devaluations? Oh, I get it. DL is your favorite airline target. So when DL does it, it's not fair, probably illegal and DL is a liar. When others do it over and over, it's no big deal. Right?


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## Carolinian (Jun 30, 2008)

Actually, if you look at the airlines abroad who have played the fuel surcharge shell game the longest, they often whack those in biz or first a lot harder on surcharges than those in steerage.

You are obviously one of those who would have been in the minority position in the Air Poll above.  To each his own.




x3 skier said:


> I wonder what happened to *aka Julie* who started this thread?
> 
> I actually flew back in the days before FF programs and survived without them. If they disappear, its been a great ride. If they don't, great. If they change, I will not loose any sleep over having to pay $50 to $200 more than I used to for a $3000 to $5000 biz class ticket. Times change and one adapts or one does not.
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Jun 30, 2008)

For major changes, however, old miles were treated differently than new miles and kept their old attributes.  Even Delta kept seperate accounts of SkyMiles and miles from the predecessor program until roughly a year ago.  Until then, my own SkyMiles account had some of both, and its been quite a few years since SkyMiles replaced its predecessor.  DL was a more honest airline in those days, before people like Rob Borden and Jeff Robertson arrived to head their ff program.




Dave M said:


> Then presumably, you and other elite flyers know that all of the major airlines have been dishonest for over 20 years. Why? Because the airlines have routinely engaged in "retroactively changing the terms of miles earned under previous promises". They have made hundreds of devaluations to FF miles over the years by requiring more miles for various individual awards, continuing with such changes this year.
> 
> Why are you so suddenly upset about this change compared to the other devaluations? Oh, I get it. DL is your favorite airline target. So when DL does it, it's not fair, probably illegal and DL is a liar. When others do it over and over, it's no big deal. Right?


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## aka Julie (Jun 30, 2008)

*I'm here*



x3 skier said:


> I wonder what happened to *aka Julie* who started this thread?



I'm still here.  I didn't realize when I started this thread that it would become the impetus for such a heated debate.  There are strong opinions on all sides.


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## Carolinian (Jun 30, 2008)

Dave M said:


> Steve has strong negative opinions about DL and he repeats those opinions often on this forum. That doesn't necessarily make those opinions factual, although he sometimes presents them as though they are.



Actually, DL has been my ''second choice'' airline since NW joined SkyTeam.  My standing preferences with the travel office of my employer have been to book me on DL if for some reason NW was not availible or the prices was too far out of whack.  The main reason, of course, is that I could get NW Worldperks miles from them.  In terms of domestic service, DL was decent if you didn't get stuck on one of their jungle jets or turndra jets, although their TATL service was usually slumming it compared to NW's new A-330's. And at least DL would give you one free alcoholic beverage in coach on a TATL flight, which while not as good as the unlimited drinks on NW, was at least better than the zero free drinks on all other domestic carriers. On personally paid tickets, if I did not find a good price on NW, the next place I would look would be DL. 

Where DL is a problem is in their ff program.  It was a great program when I joined, went slowly downhill with the ''enhancements'' until Rob Borden sent it into a tail spin, which is when I bailed out.  I feel a bit like ''parachute man'' on the SaveSkyMiles site.  When DL management finally wised up two years later, canned Borden, and restored the old SkyMiles standards, I had already found that the grass was greener at NW.  As a mid-tier elite, I was getting upgraded to First on just about every domestic segment at NW compared to less than 30% at DL plus I liked NW's main connection airport in Europe, AMS, a lot better than DL's at CDG, and of course the unlimited free drinks on TATL flights was nice.

Post Borden, DL has had a steady drumbeat of junk fees.  I guess they figured hosing ff'ers was like boiling a frog.  If you throw him in a pot of hot water, he recognises the danger and jumps out, but if you put him in room temperature water and gradually heat it up, he doesn't figure out what is happening until it is too late and he is cooked.  Borden took the first approach but Jeff Robertson is slowly turning up the temperature.

In ff programs airlines have induced customers to pay more for the perks of the ff program. Ironically, there were many times on TATL tickets I myself could have saved $20-50 by flying NW instead of DL, but I bought DL tickets because of my participation in SkyMiles at the time. Those customers have a right to feel cheated when an airline tries to avoid holding up its end of the bargain. Why should they be kicking us in the face for our loyalty?

Are oil prices an excuse?  When I see an airline like RyanAir doing business as usual, and doing okay, I really question that contention.  Heck RyanAir just had a promo where they gave away two million free Fall tickets, and their stock is considered investment grade, which none of the stock of a US legacy airline is currently. RyanAir's main adjustment to oil prices has been to make some flights seasonal that had been yearround, but it is still adding flights and working on offering TATL service to North America.

As far as my own travel is concerned, I have a business TATL trip already booked in August on NW and a business intra-europe trip booked on CSA in September and various personal travel booked on EasyJet, MyAir, Wizz, and SkyEurope.  I probably will not have another TATL trip where I could fly a domestic carrier again until December, and by then I will have changed my second choice with my employer's travel office to CO if I cannot get on my first choice, NW.  If the DL takeover of NW goes through, my primary carrier will probably change to CO.  The end of bonus miles for elites at US took them out of the running, and AA has two stikes against it for TATL travel, namely Heathrow and BA.  I am still considering UA although earning miles on connecting flights in Europe is a problem.


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## Twinkstarr (Jun 30, 2008)

Carolinian said:


> Bethune has a lot better handle on the aviation industry than most of the Wall Street based analysts.




That's why I listen when he's on.  

As for NWA being on the top of the "who's going to file next", the lists posted here are quiet different than the ones I've seen. Most have American, USAir or United ranked above NWA and Delta. The ones I saw were based on liquidity measurments and short-medium term cash postitions.


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## x3 skier (Jun 30, 2008)

*NW Pilots Union Leaders accept a 30% raise*



Carolinian said:


> What will be next for the airlines?  A pilot surcharge if wages go up?



Get Ready.  

I suppose they could turn down the raise and hope to help NWA remain independent so NWA FF Program could continue but I doubt it.

Cheers


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## Carolinian (Jun 30, 2008)

x3 skier said:


> Get Ready.
> 
> I suppose they could turn down the raise and hope to help NWA remain independent so NWA FF Program could continue but I doubt it.
> 
> Cheers



This is yet another example of how this merger / takeover does not help the economics of either airline or both together.  First DL bought off its pilots with a pay raise that was not necessary in order to get their support for the merger, leaving the NW pilots out in the cold and angry.  Now, they seem to have also bribed the NW pilots.  With airlines losing money, it is simply stupid to have a merger where you have to buy off the loyalty of employees on both sides, adding to the red ink.

Mergers and takeovers in the airline industry historically are far more likely to fail than to succeed, and they seem to be doing their darnest to make sure this one is another failure.  Without this merger, neither airline would have incurred the additional labor expense of these raises, which neither of them need at this time.

These salary increases I am sure have another group besides those received them very happy.  That is the execs at RyanAir who are working on RyanAir's plans to introduce TATL (trans-Atlantic) service and then set up a US domestic ariline based on the RyanAir model.  If the US legacies have been afraid of competition from SW, that will seem like a school picnic for them after RyanAir arrives on the scene.  RyanAir would never win that JD Power popularity contest for customr service, but they will absolutely kneecap the domestic legacies as to price.  Excessive labor costs at the legacies will go a long way to help them do it.


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## Twinkstarr (Jun 30, 2008)

Carolinian said:


> This is yet another example of how this merger / takeover does not help the economics of either airline or both together.  First DL bought off its pilots with a pay raise that was not necessary in order to get their support for the merger, leaving the NW pilots out in the cold and angry.  Now, they seem to have also bribed the NW pilots.  With airlines losing money, it is simply stupid to have a merger where you have to buy off the loyalty of employees on both sides, adding to the red ink.
> 
> Mergers and takeovers in the airline industry historically are far more likely to fail than to succeed, and they seem to be doing their darnest to make sure this one is another failure.  Without this merger, neither airline would have incurred the additional labor expense of these raises, which neither of them need at this time.
> 
> These salary increases I am sure have another group besides those received them very happy.  That is the execs at RyanAir who are working on RyanAir's plans to introduce TATL (trans-Atlantic) service and then set up a US domestic ariline based on the RyanAir model.  If the US legacies have been afraid of competition from SW, that will seem like a school picnic for them after RyanAir arrives on the scene.  RyanAir would never win that JD Power popularity contest for customr service, but they will absolutely kneecap the domestic legacies as to price.  Excessive labor costs at the legacies will go a long way to help them do it.




That's what I figure is going to happen next, isn't Virgin starting US routes also?


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## Carolinian (Jun 30, 2008)

Twinkstarr said:


> That's what I figure is going to happen next, isn't Virgin starting US routes also?



Virgin America is already flying, but I don't think they have the access to financing that RyanAir will.


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## Twinkstarr (Jun 30, 2008)

Carolinian said:


> Virgin America is already flying, but I don't think they have the access to financing that RyanAir will.



Just checked out Ryanair, WOW! I know they charge for everything, but I just priced out Stansted to Palma Mallorca 8/7-8/14 for 143 pounds.


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## x3 skier (Jun 30, 2008)

Twinkstarr said:


> Just checked out Ryanair, WOW! I know they charge for everything, but I just priced out Stansted to Palma Mallorca 8/7-8/14 for 143 pounds.



Just for grins (something somewhat lacking on this thread) I did a check on Orbitz for a route to the sun on Delta in the US. RyanAir figures out to around $283 for 861 Miles (assuming they land somewhere near the main airport which is not guaranteed at all locations). Same dates from Dayton to West Palm Beach (PBI) 944 miles on the Evil Empire of Delta was $263 on Orbitz. From Gloomy to Sunny for about the same price, $0.32/mile on RyanAir and $0.28/mile on the Evil Empire. Slightly cheaper on Useless Air. Even in one of the Evil Empire's Fortresses, Cincinnati, it was $338 or $0.38/mile

I suppose if they ever came to the USA, they could start a fare war but with fuel reaching an ever higher percentage of the cost of a flight and since they may have lower wages, fuel  percentage may be even higher for RyanAir, they may go the way of Skybus in the USA. 

That said, I have never seen a $30 fare including all taxes etc. on Delta like I have for this August on bmibaby, another semi LCC, from Heathrow to Venice.  

Cheers


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## Twinkstarr (Jun 30, 2008)

x3 skier said:


> Just for grins (something somewhat lacking on this thread) I did a check on Orbitz for a route to the sun on Delta in the US. RyanAir figures out to around $283 for 861 Miles (assuming they land somewhere near the main airport which is not guaranteed at all locations). Same dates from Dayton to West Palm Beach (PBI) 944 miles on the Evil Empire of Delta was $263 on Orbitz. From Gloomy to Sunny for about the same price, $0.32/mile on RyanAir and $0.28/mile on the Evil Empire. Slightly cheaper on Useless Air. Even in one of the Evil Empire's Fortresses, Cincinnati, it was $338 or $0.38/mile
> 
> I suppose if they ever came to the USA, they could start a fare war but with fuel reaching an ever higher percentage of the cost of a flight and since they may have lower wages, fuel  percentage may be even higher for RyanAir, they may go the way of Skybus in the USA.
> 
> ...




:hysterical: The Evil Empire! 

Ryanair had some 10pound fares going sale ends today. I think they are good until sometime next yr, but a lot of restrictions on when they are applicable. 

I remember when it cost an arm and a leg to fly anywhere in Europe. Gosh I guess I'm dating myself.


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## Carolinian (Jul 1, 2008)

Twinkstarr said:


> :hysterical: The Evil Empire!
> 
> Ryanair had some 10pound fares going sale ends today. I think they are good until sometime next yr, but a lot of restrictions on when they are applicable.
> 
> I remember when it cost an arm and a leg to fly anywhere in Europe. Gosh I guess I'm dating myself.



Yeah, and those 10 pound fares include taxes and have NO fuel surcharge.

All airlines prices go up as the plane fills up, and with the LCC model, the rise can be steeper because the starting point is much lower. The formulas are also a bit different, as legacies use ''fare classes'' to do that and there are reasons people buy more expensive fare classe within coach when less expensive fare classes are availible (my employer does that because they buy only refundable tickets which are a higher fare class of coach), while LCC's simply use different points of the percentage of total seats sold on the plane and only offer one price at any given point. To compare apples and apples, one needs to compare a relatiely empty plane on both airlines or a relatively full plane on both airlines. Personally, I've never paid more than $60 all-in on a flight on RyanAir, EasyJet, Wizz, SkyEurope, Germanwings, or Aegean, and more often it was closer to $30.  A number of times, I have bought tickets where the base fare was one UK penny, one eurocent, or free, plus taxes and fees.  Aegean even provided a meal and a beer free on its short haul flight and the all-in fare was less than $60 last fall.

If one wants to have a closer look at the fares on RyanAir, the site is at www.ryanair.com

Personally, among LCC's I prefer the customer service of Wizz, Sky Europe, and Aegean over that of RyanAir, but they all have good prices.


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## Carolinian (Jul 1, 2008)

Twinkstarr said:


> That's what I figure is going to happen next, isn't Virgin starting US routes also?



You might want to check out some of the current sale fares at www.virginamerica.com and BTW they don't whack you with a fuel surcharge, and they give one free piece of checked luggage up to 70 lbs.


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## Carolinian (Jul 1, 2008)

There is an interesting thread over at FlyerTalk, where some think that the way some legacy airlines, led by US and DL, are destroying their ff programs, it will drive business travellers to WN (Southwest).  Can't say that I totally agree until WN has some international connections, perhaps a partner arrangement with a TATL LCC like Globespan, LTU (owned now by Air Berlin), Condor, Zoom, Eurofly, or Icelandiair.


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## Twinkstarr (Jul 1, 2008)

Carolinian said:


> You might want to check out some of the current sale fares at www.virginamerica.com and BTW they don't whack you with a fuel surcharge, and they give one free piece of checked luggage up to 70 lbs.



I took a look when you said they were flying. I'm a Midwest gal from Ohio, so not helpful to me yet. 

Maybe there will be some gates available at DTW when the Evil Empire sucks up NWA.


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## tombo (Jul 1, 2008)

Welfare in this country doesn't just affect the mindset of the poor. Receiving free perks can become entitlement to whatever socio-economic group is receiving the free things. When people fly a lot on business (on flights which are payed by their employer or our gov't) they start getting used to getting free tickets for personal flights using FF miles accumulated at their employers expense.  This then starts to become entitlement. They deserve it because they had to fly those miles. Well they forget that the "business flights" were a part of their employment, and they were being paid to fly those miles on flights paid in full by their employer. 

I had a friend who flew constantly and for years he would get his employer to book his flights on airlines based on his favorite frequent flyer program regardless of what the costs were to his employer. He wasn't one bit concerned about the cost to his employer, just how many FF miles it got him. This went on for years until a couple of years ago they said we need you to get a FF memebrship in the following airlines. He said I already have those. They informed him that he could use his current frequent flyer programs on the flights he personally paid for. They said from now on we are going to accumulate the miles for the flights we pay for and use the miles for business flights for you in the future. He got mad and said when I fly I should get those miles. They said we will be glad to give them to you if you want to pay for the flights, otherwise we are paying for the flights earning the FF miles, and we will use them as we see fit. Entitlement comes in all forms to all socio-economic groups.

Steve said:
"Actually, DL has been my ''second choice'' airline since NW joined SkyTeam. My standing preferences with the travel office of my employer have been to book me on DL if for some reason NW was not availible or the prices was too far out of whack. The main reason, of course, is that I could get NW Worldperks miles from them."

Sounds to me like his problem with Delta is not how well the airline operates with on time flights etc, his concern is in keeping free flights for himself using accumulated FF miles which were paid for by his company. For the majority of us who pay for our own flights and who earn our own frequent flyer miles, J D Powers ranks it correctly, Delta is 3rd best in customer service and Northwest is last. If you however have hundreds of thousands of frequent flyer miles in your posession which might become useless if your air line is purchased by Delta, you have a selfish reason to hate them which most of the Americans polled have no concerns about.


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## Carolinian (Jul 1, 2008)

Actually, before I took my present job a little less than a year ago, all of my travel was paid for out of my own pocket.  The majority of my Worldperks miles at risk of being hijacked to much less valuable SkyPiles were earned by travel I paid for.  My remaining SkyMiles from my days as a DL Gold Medallion were also all earned on travel I paid for myself, and I was nearly half way to being a DL million miler when I bailed.  So your characterization is more than a little off base.  

Also my employer's travel office does not allow us to just book anything we want regardless of price.  If flying NW works out to a substantially higher fare than competitors, I cannot use it.  That is why I have given DL as a second choice, since I could still get Worldperks miles on DL  I always get on the computer and find a NW itinerary that works and then submit that to the travel office.  We do have certain other perks that are nice too, such as hotel (4*) and per diem for a stopover enroute if the travel time comes out over a set number of hours, which my TATL travel almost always does.  From my post, that generally allows a choice of a day and a night each direction in Istanbul, Athens, Budapest, Vienna, Prague, Rome, Vilnius, Riga, Munich, Frankfurt, Paris, or London.

As to quality of flights, since I have been a NW elite I have been upgraded on almost every domestic flight I have been on that has a first class cabin, compared to less than 30% as a DL elite (and below 20% toward the end).  I can assure you that the flight experience sitting up front in those nice wide seats on NW beats the stuffings out of sitting in steerage on DL.  Been there, done that!

On international legs, I enjoy NW's far superior IFE on those new A-330's and the unlimited free alcoholic beverages in coach, compared to DL's pitiful international IFE and miserly one free drink.  And, of course when those even newer Boeing 787 Dreamliners arrive, that NW is the first US-based carrier scheduled for delivery of, I am sure they will be even better.  But hey, when you have an airline like DL that has not been able to afford new TATL aircraft for quite a while, I guess trying to snatch someone else's looks like a good plan.

My position on DL not being ff-friendly predates the NW merger/takeover situation by years.  I have been posting on that since the Rob Borden days ( see www.saveskymiles.com ).  In retrospect, I am far from angry with Robby Boy, because if he had not trashed SkyMiles, I probably would have stayed in the DL rut and not discovered the far superior ff program at NW.  And actually, some of the takeaways had begun at SkyMiles even before Robby Boy showed up, such as eliminating the SWU's, but Robby sent them into overdrive.  I wonder if he is flipping hamburgers somewhere after DL canned him.

One other thing that my employer has that is kind of nifty is an intranet page for employees to share information on whatever subjects we like, and since we operate in over seventy countries, many of my colleagues travel a fair amount and are interested in ff programs.  I put on some posts on DL's shananigans on fuel surcharges on award tickets, and from the personal emails I have received on that it struck a nerve.  I am sure that quite a few will be changing their airline of choice.  I wish there were more I could do to get the word out.





tombo said:


> Welfare in this country doesn't just affect the mindset of the poor. Receiving free perks can become entitlement to whatever socio-economic group is receiving the free things. When people fly a lot on business (on flights which are payed by their employer or our gov't) they start getting used to getting free tickets for personal flights using FF miles accumulated at their employers expense.  This then starts to become entitlement. They deserve it because they had to fly those miles. Well they forget that the "business flights" were a part of their employment, and they were being paid to fly those miles on flights paid in full by their employer.
> 
> I had a friend who flew constantly and for years he would get his employer to book his flights on airlines based on his favorite frequent flyer program regardless of what the costs were to his employer. He wasn't one bit concerned about the cost to his employer, just how many FF miles it got him. This went on for years until a couple of years ago they said we need you to get a FF memebrship in the following airlines. He said I already have those. They informed him that he could use his current frequent flyer programs on the flights he personally paid for. They said from now on we are going to accumulate the miles for the flights we pay for and use the miles for business flights for you in the future. He got mad and said when I fly I should get those miles. They said we will be glad to give them to you if you want to pay for the flights, otherwise we are paying for the flights earning the FF miles, and we will use them as we see fit. Entitlement comes in all forms to all socio-economic groups.
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Jul 1, 2008)

If you want to file a complaint with the DOJ over DL's ripoff of ff members with these fuel surcharges on award tickets, here is the online form:

http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/escomplaint/es.cfm


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## blueparrot (Jul 2, 2008)

Carolinian said:


> If you want to file a complaint with the DOJ over DL's ripoff of ff members with these fuel surcharges on award tickets, here is the online form:
> 
> http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/escomplaint/es.cfm



Thanks! I have sent my complaint in.  This policy really stinks.  I have flown Delta for years, but I am now looking for a new airline.


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