# Really sad news [Hawaii Education]



## Kauai Kid (Oct 23, 2009)

The State of Hawaii is so strapped for cash the government is decreasing the number of days students must attend school.

Awfully short sighted in my less than humble opinion. 


Sterling


----------



## northpole (Oct 23, 2009)

How about raising taxes!  It's quite simple: If you need "X" amount of money for the budget, then you must raise "X" amount of money through taxes... 

Too bad the kids have to suffer because people don't want to pay their share - or the government is too scared to ask people to pay their share (I'm not sure which it is).


----------



## Kona Lovers (Oct 23, 2009)

Kauai Kid said:


> The State of Hawaii is so strapped for cash the government is decreasing the number of days students must attend school.
> 
> Awfully short sighted in my less than humble opinion.
> 
> ...



We're school teachers in CA, and our governator was toying with a version of this but fortunately it didn't happen.


----------



## goaliemn (Oct 23, 2009)

northpole said:


> How about raising taxes!  It's quite simple: If you need "X" amount of money for the budget, then you must raise "X" amount of money through taxes...
> 
> Too bad the kids have to suffer because people don't want to pay their share - or the government is too scared to ask people to pay their share (I'm not sure which it is).


With so many people losing their jobs, getting pay cuts, or just trying to squrrel away money in case they do lose their jobs, cutting services is the only thing you can do.  The population is not a cash register ready to hand over money to the state, just because they can't keep their own spending in line with the money coming in..


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 23, 2009)

northpole said:


> How about raising taxes!  It's quite simple: If you need "X" amount of money for the budget, then you must raise "X" amount of money through taxes...
> 
> Too bad the kids have to suffer because people don't want to pay their share - or the government is too scared to ask people to pay their share (I'm not sure which it is).



Do you know that the county of Maui has raised TS owners' property taxes to an exorbitant rate?  Not everyone's taxes - just a special tax for TS owners - so be careful what you wish for!


----------



## rickandcindy23 (Oct 23, 2009)

The locals are broke, and the schools shouldn't bear the brunt of the problem!  It's a sad thing, and their budget suffers horribly in this economy.  

I have some ideas for the state and especially the county.  Perhaps they should charge visitors a higher sales tax.  At home, we pay nearly 9% in sales taxes (outrageous).  What if they have residents show their driver's licenses and pay the rate they pay now, then have visitors pay something higher?  

They could also raise the TAT by double, and it wouldn't hurt many of us.  

I just don't want to see an unfair property tax on our weeks that we own, similar to the property tax on Maui.  There should be some solution for the island that doesn't include a property tax that is 7 times higher than the residents pay.  When I think of all of the people who buy homes on the island that can afford to pay a higher tax, it would make me crazy to think they were paying $2.00 to my $14.00.   That bothers me.  And with the TAT or the extra sales tax, at least the people who actually visit the island could pay more.  

I know people will disagree, but the sales tax is so low, and we are used to paying so much more.  I think it's a decent solution.


----------



## Kauai Kid (Oct 23, 2009)

As a former teacher and professor myself I don't mind paying higher taxes or fees (too much) if the funds would go directly to school systems, especially teachers. But the Governor hasn't contacted me.

I would like to see the state promote Peacock Bass Fishing.  There are fishing nuts from this country that pay $5000 for a Peacock Bass guide in Columbia, South America!  Bass fisherman are as crazy about fishing as women are about nails.  :hysterical: 


Sterling

By the way:  There are Peacock Bass in the pond just north of Koloa.


----------



## GaryDouglas (Oct 23, 2009)

northpole said:


> How about raising taxes! It's quite simple: If you need "X" amount of money for the budget, then you must raise "X" amount of money through taxes...
> 
> Too bad the kids have to suffer because people don't want to pay their share - or the government is too scared to ask people to pay their share (I'm not sure which it is).


 
How about the government cutting mismanagement, waste and abuse first! Universal solution for all of government's problems is to spend other people's money. Since I am clearly already paying more than my share, it's time to solve the problem at the spending side. By the way, 'pay their share' is socialist-speak for 'Anyone that makes more money than me should pay higher taxes'. 

Moderator, if this is too 'political', you can take out this posting along with the one that started it.


----------



## Liz Wolf-Spada (Oct 23, 2009)

Kona Lover, California did pass the measure that would allow 175 days instead of 180, but I think the hours didn't change. We are looking at drastic cuts in our district and cutting school days and therefore not only salaries but transportation, utilities etc. for those days is an option. We'll find out more on Tuesday.
Liz


----------



## ricoba (Oct 23, 2009)

Isn't the very nature of this thread open to a political discussion?:ignore: 

Seems to me, unless we live in HI, it's really not up to us to decide what they should do with regard to their state budget.


----------



## northpole (Oct 23, 2009)

I was the one who said "pay their share".  I'm also Canadian and happen to be paying 47% of my income to income taxes.  So I'm not asking those that make more than me to pay taxes - I'm the one paying the taxes! I'm upset that our own Canadian government is spending more than they earn this year (the first deficit in 12 years).  They should raise taxes here to keep us from falling into debt as a country, and they definitely shouldn't reduce school days to save money!  

The question is really "who should pay" somebody has to, and it's unfortunate that it's the kids that are being made to pay.


----------



## easyrider (Oct 23, 2009)

If they would allow any sort of legal gambling in Hawaii it could really add the needed funds. If they allowed cassino's, Hawaii could really be a fun place to hang out. There would be something to do after 9 pm.


----------



## ricoba (Oct 23, 2009)

easyrider said:


> If they would allow any sort of legal gambling in Hawaii it could really add the needed funds. If they allowed cassino's, Hawaii could really be a fun place to hang out. There would be something to do after 9 pm.



YUCK Bill!   That's a terrible idea!!!


----------



## taffy19 (Oct 23, 2009)

Kauai Kid said:


> The State of Hawaii is so strapped for cash the government is decreasing the number of days students must attend school.
> 
> Awfully short sighted in my less than humble opinion.
> 
> ...


Sterling, you scared me to death when I saw your heading.  I am glad everything is OK with you two.  I don't mind paying the higher taxes if the Government would manage the budget wisely.  Taking kids out of school is shortsighted.  They are our future and they need to be educated.


----------



## geekette (Oct 23, 2009)

I have no kids, never balk at paying taxes that go to schools, since I of course want educated children.  Mine or not, they are our future.  much of my local tax dollar is going to stuff that is mostly sports-related instead of academics or crumbling infrastructure at some of our oldest schools.   

what I'm trying to figure out is what are the parents in HI going to do?  Ditch a day of work each week?  Quit work to start a one-day-a-week day care???  

That's got to be messing up the families.

I think the kids should have school work on those days but I don't much care what it is - read a book, write a story, go to a museum, go to the library, interview someone local, build a birdhouse, whatever.  It should not be a free day but it could certainly be an "independent project" day.  

I hope some kid-centric places step up and offer some trustworthy places for the kids to be.


----------



## JeffW (Oct 23, 2009)

I'm in Hawaii now (at Westin Princeville), the "Friday Furlough" has been the top story all week.  It isn't just the teachers, but the majority of gov't workers who also won't be working basically every other Friday for the next year or so.  

It'll be an interesting situation if/when the economy improves.  I'm guessing most of the deficit (supposedly $1B) was due to a downturn in tourism.  However, pretty much all the cuts being made are ones that affect locals:  schools, getting a marriage license, WIC benefits, etc.  So, if locals will be able to survive with gov't employees working ~18days/month now (vs normal 20), maybe the furlough's will be permanent.  

I think tax hikes might have been proposed earlier in the year, and apparently didn't go over well.  Cutting back expenses was the next obvious step.  

Jeff


----------



## Kona Lovers (Oct 23, 2009)

Liz Wolf-Spada said:


> Kona Lover, California did pass the measure that would allow 175 days instead of 180, but I think the hours didn't change. We are looking at drastic cuts in our district and cutting school days and therefore not only salaries but transportation, utilities etc. for those days is an option. We'll find out more on Tuesday.
> Liz



This has not happened in our county (Kern), reducing the number of days, but yeah, there's been cuts like crazy otherwise.


----------



## Kona Lovers (Oct 23, 2009)

Just heard on KAPA radio online, from the Big Island, that there's now concern about HS seniors not attending enough days and will be denied college admission.


----------



## Liz Wolf-Spada (Oct 24, 2009)

Kona Lover, I didn't mean that it was happening anywhere (yet), just that it had been approved by the governor.
Liz


----------



## california-bighorn (Oct 24, 2009)

*5 days won't help*

I don't think reducing the number of school days by 5 can really save any significant amount of money.  I think it is more of a political statement to get the citizens attention. We go through this in California on a regular basis when the government threatens to cut services.  A recent example was when the Governator threatened to close State Parks. But again they came up with a solution to keep services after politicizing their position.
Raising taxes would be the worst thing Hawaii could do.  Since their economy is based on tourisim, they need to make the cost of visiting the Islands as attractive as possible.  Hawaii is in serious competion with Mexico and other locations for travel dollars.  It will never happen, but, instead of raising taxes and fees, Hawaii would be better off to subsidize airfare to help bring tourists to the Islands where they would spend their dollars.  This would be like the casinos that provide free bus transportation,  free gambling tokens and other perks to get people into their casino where they will spend their money.  
I liken the raising of nickel and dime taxes with the fees the airline industry has recently imposed.  Travelers are looking at these fees and in some cases selecting another airline after evaluating the total cost along with customer service. You only need to drive away a small percentage to go from profit to bankrupt.


----------



## Kona Lovers (Oct 24, 2009)

Liz Wolf-Spada said:


> Kona Lover, I didn't mean that it was happening anywhere (yet), just that it had been approved by the governor.
> Liz



Oh yeah, it's one of those things the districts can do, but hopefully won't.  It's so ironic that when they call for a longer school year politicians react like this.


----------



## JeffW (Oct 24, 2009)

5 days?  You're right, probably not much difference.  Hawaii with 17 (for "9 month" teachers), 21 ("12 month" teachers), probably more so.  Interestingly, there are a whole slew of school employees not governed by this contract, which will still be reporting to work on those days.  An article said they'll be "trying to figure out how to task them", so they don't just sit around.  So they can't even realize the extra savings of completely shutting down the schools.  

I'm not sure the gov't is going to be subsidizing any travel to the islands.  Whether it's a prudent investment or not, I can't see parents who've lost school days for their children be okay with spending their tax dollars so those on the mainland can fly out there.  Just like after 9/11, it's really up to the travel industry to reduce prices to a level that gets enough people to travel and spend their money.

An editorial in a Hawaii newpaper had a good point - "People are going to need to start to consider how much government they want to pay for."  While the depression we're in / have been in might improve soon, I think the near future still has us in a recession for quite a while.  While obviously more severe measures need to be taken to compensate for the short term 'bleeding' a lot of gov'ts are going thru, I hope someone is doing some planning on how to handle this level of spending for the near future.

Jeff


----------



## Liz Wolf-Spada (Oct 24, 2009)

I know as a teacher with 7 years of college and 24 years of teaching, I don't want my per hour, per daily salary reduced. It makes me feel that they are saying I am less valuable then I was last year. I would rather take the furlough days when at least I don't have to work. In our districts, we did 5 non student furlough days (basically lost all prep before school and all parent conference days). That saved our district over a million, and we're not a large district.
Liz


----------



## easyrider (Oct 24, 2009)

[Political comment deleted. - DeniseM Moderator]


----------



## JeffW (Oct 24, 2009)

At least with furlough days, when conditions improve, there will be a *lot *of pressure to go back to full staffing days. The alternatives of either layoffs, or a salary reduction, to a large degree are hidden from most people, that once they're in place, they are likely tough to undo.  My company has been going through some rough times the past few years, I would have quickly offered to refuse the annual pay rise, even give back part of my salary, in order to maintain employment.  I never thought about furloughs, but that's even better, as at least I get something (a day off) for my reduced salary.  I'm not sure I'll ever have that option, as to some degree, I think my salary is paid by my billables to our end client.  

Jeff


----------



## DeniseM (Oct 24, 2009)

In my district we were also given 3 furlough days + a pay cut.  The furlough days are not student attendance days, so it didn't shorten the school year.  I too, would rather have furlough days, rather than working the same number of days, for less pay.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Oct 24, 2009)

northpole said:


> How about raising taxes!  It's quite simple: If you need "X" amount of money for the budget, then you must raise "X" amount of money through taxes...
> 
> Too bad the kids have to suffer because people don't want to pay their share - or the government is too scared to ask people to pay their share (I'm not sure which it is).



I disagree.  If the current Budget is X and you only have Y, then you cut X-Y out of the budget and lay off people until X=Y.  Give the top performers raises so that they are rewarded for superior performance.  Eliminate the teachers that don't produce results.   The discipline of restructuring organizations in tight times make them more efficient and better.  Simply furloughing employees across the board leads to mediocrity and no incentive to improve a bad situation.

If more money is needed after all restructuring is done, then other budgets or government agencies should be cut to fund the initiatives that are truly underfunded.  There is plenty of tax money.  There isn't enough cutting of waste.  That's the nature of government.  It never takes actions to get more efficient.  It only gets bigger and bigger.


----------



## BocaBum99 (Oct 24, 2009)

JeffW said:


> At least with furlough days, when conditions improve, there will be a *lot *of pressure to go back to full staffing days. The alternatives of either layoffs, or a salary reduction, to a large degree are hidden from most people, that once they're in place, they are likely tough to undo.  My company has been going through some rough times the past few years, I would have quickly offered to refuse the annual pay rise, even give back part of my salary, in order to maintain employment.  I never thought about furloughs, but that's even better, as at least I get sometime (a day off) for my reduced salary.  I'm not sure I'll ever have that option, as to some degree, I think my salary is paid by my billables to our end client.
> 
> Jeff



On the other hand, something else could happen, too.  It could be that parents take control of their children's education and a bunch of private alternatives pop up to supplement the education of their children.  For now, parents already need to find day care for the next 16 Fridays.  For their money, they can probably get better education per dollar than their tax dollars pay.  They may learn that they like it so much they ask for more furlough days per week, not less.

Here is an article form a former teacher on this subject:  Hawaii not getting its money worth for education

What I would do is set an objective.  When teaching performance = $$$ spent on education, teachers can have all of their furlough dollars back plus a 10% raise.  In 2006, Hawaii ranked 14th in dollars spent per child for public education.  They can have all of their money back plus a 10% raise when our children rank 14th in the country in terms of performance.  Now, they are ranked 42nd.  I say make the teachers take a pay cut and work full time and give them a percentage back based on the improved ranking.  When they get to 14th in the country in terms of performance, they get all of their salary cuts back and 10% more.


----------



## JeffW (Oct 24, 2009)

BocaBum99 said:


> On the other hand, something else could happen, too.  It could be that parents take control of their children's education and a bunch of private alternatives pop up to supplement the education of their children...



Maybe in some places, but not in Philadelphia:

- about two years ago, they wanted to have more schools go to uniforms, to both push a "you're job here is to learn' mentality, as well as to make it easier to identify non-school children in the school.   There were complaints that, "how were poor parents going to pay for uniforms."

- a year ago, they wanted to charge parents a $25 fee if their child was found truant from school (I guess the logic being, if the parents felted shamed, maybe they'd get their kids in order).  Same thing - "that penalizes poor parents."

- apparently the Phila school district was on a pilot program, where schoolchildren got free meals (at least breakfast's) w/o having to fill out any forms.  They wanted to end that, and go back to what I assume is the norm across the country - you need to fill out a form (I'm assuming just once per year) requesting the free meals for your child.  Some people were forecasting the end of the world, that some children wouldn't get meals anymore.  We're not talking that the parents would have to start _paying _for the meals, just that they need to fill out a form to get them (still for free).  Nope, "too much hassle", to much risk that some kids might go hungry.

- and in Sept, the school district changed the policy so that there is mandatory attendance taken for breakfast in the morning. 

So, at least in Philadelphia, the assumption by the school board is that the parents are required to do practically nothing for their children.  There was a great comment in the op-ed section, basically saying, "If you can't even count on a parent to feed their child breakfast before school, what's the point of the school doing it, since there will likely be little to no other parental involvement in their education?"

I'm sure there are 'good' school districts, with lots of parental involvement, where the parents might actually care about their children missing days.  I some places though (like maybe Phila), the parents biggest concern might be, "who's going to take care of my child during the day."

Jeff


----------



## DEROS (Oct 24, 2009)

There are many sides to this story, the parent point view, which has nothing to do with education.  Not saying it is no less a concern, but not everything revolves around the "education of the kids".

1.  Parents use school as a Day Care.  (Many parents were crying about the inability or price of hiring child care.  Education was the furthest from their minds.)

2.  Parents use school to teach Sports.  i.e my kid will be the next super star.  (Many parents were concerned about the sports programs.  Kids need to practice and play Friday nights.  By the way the sports program will not be cut.  "Screw the next Einstein, we need more Michael Jordans")

3.  Parents use school for the only time kids eat.  (For many breakfast and lunch is the only true balanced, free, meals they get.)


Just more points of view.

BTW there is a lot of politics in the Hawaii Education.  The biggest, in my opinion, is there has not been a DOE Audit in over 20 years.  The money I am concern with is the money that the US Military give to the State of Hawaii.  (The U.S Military gives Millions of Dollars a year to the State, not DOE, to offsite the military kids going to school, whose parents may or may not pay state tax [I pay Hawaii State Tax])  No one really knows where the money goes when it hits the State coffers.

Deros


----------



## northpole (Oct 24, 2009)

BocaBum99 said:


> I disagree.  If the current Budget is X and you only have Y, then you cut X-Y out of the budget and lay off people until X=Y.  Give the top performers raises so that they are rewarded for superior performance.  Eliminate the teachers that don't produce results.   The discipline of restructuring organizations in tight times make them more efficient and better.  Simply furloughing employees across the board leads to mediocrity and no incentive to improve a bad situation.
> 
> If more money is needed after all restructuring is done, then other budgets or government agencies should be cut to fund the initiatives that are truly underfunded.  There is plenty of tax money.  There isn't enough cutting of waste.  That's the nature of government.  It never takes actions to get more efficient.  It only gets bigger and bigger.



I'll try to make this subject relevant to timesharing.

If state of Hawaii was a responsible timeshare (like Lawai Beach Resort for example), they'd ask owners/residents if they wanted their kids to have 5 day a week school, in which case they'd have to pay more, OR if they'd like to cut the school week and have their kids receive less education but pay the same fees.

Many timeshares, similarly, ask owners if they want rooms to be refurbished, restaurants to be opened, new pools to be built and if they do, they present a proposed budget of how much each proposal would cost.  In the same way, yearly budgets are usually passed by the boards which will keep services the same.

I'd rather go on my yearly vacation knowing that everything will be in order, the rooms will be clean and the pools operational, even if that means that my maintenance fees go up by a bit each year.  I'd hate to arrive at LBR and find out that the power has been cut 2 days per week, that most staff were laid off (to make them more efficient of course), and that only one pool is working because the board proposed a budget that doesn't cover the operating costs and thought that it was better to cut services than raise fees.  

I agree with a previous poster that this is a subject for Hawaiians.  If they were to decide, democratically (maybe a referendum or initiative), that they'd prefer a cut education instead of paying more taxes, then, democratically, I couldn't fault them for that.  

Personally, I'm happy to pay maintenance fees so that my timeshare can stay in good order AND I'm happy to pay taxes to pay for all the services (schools, hospitals, roads, libraries etc.) that I expect.  I know that I can't expect to have a nice timeshare and not pay for it through maintenance fees, or local services and not pay for them through taxes, so it would be hypocritical to expect free services at my timeshare or government services that I'm not willing to pay for.


----------



## jmatias (Oct 24, 2009)

This whole furlough thing is crazy.  Its bad for the kids, bad for the teachers.  Its a no win as the whole problem with the DOE is inefficiency and its a very big top heavy bureaucratic mess.  I personally don't want to keep throwing $$ at something that isn't working the best it can.  That doesn't solve anything.

And complacency is a big thing here in Hawaii.  Change is very difficult and many prefer the status quo, don't make waves.


----------



## Liz Wolf-Spada (Oct 24, 2009)

California is a budgetary nightmare. My school which is a title 1 school due to poverty and has many second language learners, many kids whose parents are on drugs or in jail etc, my school raised our test scores on API 55 points last year. That is huge. Given that success, you would think we would be encouraged to keep doing whatever we are doing. However, our administrator has cut our copy machine usage to 500 copies PER YEAR per class. That is one ream of paper. (She also just used that same copier to send home a 14 page newsletter.) We have access to an old duplo machine that is slow and hard to use, always breaking and can't collate. How many businesses would function well with basic necessities being cut? We still have some class size reduction but it was cut for 3rd grade altogether 2 years ago and K-2 is now at 24 kids and likely to lose class size reduction altogether next year. It's a very difficutl time. I'm hoping that if students lose 5 days of class time parents will realize we really do have a budget crisis and elect some new legislators to Sacramento. As a 5th grade teacher for the last 2 years, I can assure you that after state testing, they are very much mentally tuned out, so losing 5 days at the end would have little impact. As a k teacher this year, I think I will see it differently.
Liz


----------



## GaryDouglas (Oct 25, 2009)

BocaBum99 said:


> ... If the current Budget is X and you only have Y, then you cut X-Y out of the budget and lay off people until X=Y. Give the top performers raises so that they are rewarded for superior performance. Eliminate the teachers that don't produce results. The discipline of restructuring organizations in tight times make them more efficient and better. Simply furloughing employees across the board leads to mediocrity and no incentive to improve a bad situation.
> 
> If more money is needed after all restructuring is done, then other budgets or government agencies should be cut to fund the initiatives that are truly underfunded. There is plenty of tax money. There isn't enough cutting of waste. That's the nature of government. It never takes actions to get more efficient. It only gets bigger and bigger.


 
A googolplex of dittos, including your following post...


----------



## cgeidl (Oct 26, 2009)

*Hawaii cutting off Fridays???*

Article my wife and I read said Hawaii was closing the schools the rest of the year in Honolulu on Fridays. With 40 less days per year already than W European school it is hard to imagine less days. My suggestion would be to offer much drill and practice on computer classes at home and use the days at school to introduce new concepts.How can we compete in a world economy with our school days based on an ancient agrarian concept that for 98% of the US is no longer valid?
We have over 50 years of CA teaching between the two of us and hate to see students getting less time learning.


----------



## Stricky (Oct 26, 2009)

If they had decided to add a new charge to their trash pick-up this thread would have never been started. (http://www.opala.org/solid_waste/)

But... when politicians have financial stress and feel like taxpayers or DC are not listening they start talking about cutting education. They know people will not put up with it.


----------



## Courts (Oct 26, 2009)

BocaBum99 said:


> I disagree.  If the current Budget is X and you only have Y, then you cut X-Y out of the budget and lay off people until X=Y.  Give the top performers raises so that they are rewarded for superior performance.  Eliminate the teachers that don't produce results.   The discipline of restructuring organizations in tight times make them more efficient and better.  Simply furloughing employees across the board leads to mediocrity and no incentive to improve a bad situation.
> 
> If more money is needed after all restructuring is done, then other budgets or government agencies should be cut to fund the initiatives that are truly underfunded.  There is plenty of tax money.  There isn't enough cutting of waste.  *That's the nature of government.  It never takes actions to get more efficient.  It only gets bigger and bigger*.


I agree. 

If I don't watch what I spend, I lose possestions or go bankrupt. Therefore I watch what I spend. 


.


----------



## John Cummings (Oct 26, 2009)

JeffW said:


> - a year ago, they wanted to charge parents a $25 fee if their child was found truant from school (I guess the logic being, if the parents felted shamed, maybe they'd get their kids in order).  Same thing - "that penalizes poor parents."
> Jeff



Where I live, truancy is taken very seriously and is strictly enforced.


----------



## John Cummings (Oct 26, 2009)

Courts said:


> I agree.
> 
> If I don't watch what I spend, I lose possestions or go bankrupt. Therefore I watch what I spend.
> 
> ...



I agree with you and Boca 100%.


----------



## JeffW (Oct 26, 2009)

northpole said:


> I'll try to make this subject relevant to timesharing.
> 
> If state of Hawaii was a responsible timeshare (like Lawai Beach Resort for example), they'd ask owners/residents if they wanted their kids to have 5 day a week school, in which case they'd have to pay more, OR if they'd like to cut the school week and have their kids receive less education but pay the same fees...



I'm not sure I'd consider this a valid comparison.  Timeshare fees are collected entirely FROM owners, and spent on benefits FOR owners.  Private schools have what you mention, since a good portion of their fees come from tuition payments.  They HAVE to be much more responsive to both budgetary needs as well as parental requests.  

Public schools, on the other hand, collect very little in school payments directly from parents of school children.  In Philadelpha, the majority of real estate taxes go towards the Phila school system.  Likewise, about 50% of students are at or below poverty level.  So, if your a parent in the group, perhaps getting subsidized housing, how much are they contributiing towards the schools?  I'm sure you could find some cases where it's $0.  If you get ANYTHING for free, do you value it that much?  That's debateable.

Would I want to live in a community with uneducated children, no.  On the other hand, with no children myself (and having gone to parochial school), do I want to have my taxes raised to pay for for schools (vs having tax money go to more police, better roads, let city/state debt)?  Maybe not.  I think that's what got Hawaii to the situation they are now - residents didn't want their taxes raised to pay for ongoing state services (incl/ schools) at their current levels. 

In terms of your second comment, "...giving the parents a choice...", that also doesn't apply.  With a timeshare, there are some mandatory expenses (anything related to safety, code requirements, etc).  After that, it's pretty much up to the management.  Should they spend their money on new HD tv's, LR furniture, or pool furniture?  To some degree, all the same.

With schools, it's NOT up to the parents to decide what they want their child to learn.  The 180 day school year I think was a requirement (state if not federal).  There are required subjects that need to be taught.  Finally, there are typically mandatory state testing to prove that the students are at an appropriate learning level. Some schools might offer extra subjects or advanced classes, but I'm sure there are many schools where that isn't even relevant.

It's a complicated issue.

Jeff


----------



## easyrider (Oct 27, 2009)

The public schools in Hawaii have a large population of lower income families sending their kids to school where the kids dont really speak regular english. Pidgin needs to go as the need for it is long gone. The decision to move to a 4 day school week was made by the same people educated in these schools, so there you go. 
The President went to school in Hawaii but he attended Punahou where the tuition is around $17,000.00 per year. So a person can get a good education in Hawaii if you can pay the tuition.


----------



## Courts (Oct 27, 2009)

> *Originally Posted by JeffW *
> In Philadelpha, the majority of real estate taxes go towards the Phila school system.
> 
> If you get ANYTHING for free, do you value it that much? That's debateable.



I'd say the following illustrates this;


> For Immediate Release Tuesday, April 01, 2008
> 
> America's Promise Alliance Launches National Campaign to Combat Nation's High School Dropout and College-Readiness Crisis
> 
> ...





> Philadelphia, Pa.  Philadelphia City School District;  *49.6%* = Graduation Rate (2003-04)





> Seventeen of the metropolitan areas surrounding the nation’s 50 largest cities had a greater than *20 percentage-point gap* between their urban and suburban graduation rates.
> 
> http://www.americaspromise.org/Abou...mise-Alliance-Launches-National-Campaign.aspx


.


----------



## JeffW (Oct 28, 2009)

I'm sure there are a lot of reasons for the listed results.  I'd wager heavy money that urban areas have a lot higher percentage of below poverty children.  I'd also guess that cost per student at suburban areas (on average) is probably higher.  Will urban or large city schools (Phila, NYC) ever have has high test scores as surburban or private schools, probably not.  Can they still provide an 'acceptable' education?  That's the goal, thought I guess whether they reach that, who knows. 

"No Child Left Behind" is a perfect example of issues surrounding school policies.  On the surface, making sure no student fails for the year is admirable.  But I'm sure in many cases, principles do more to "show that the students passed" vs actually having them learn the material. 

In terms of graduation rates, I remember years ago hearing a proposal that would prevent someone from getting a drivers license unless they were in school, and ended up getting a high school diploma.  I think I heard the same type of whining as I mentioned before - "It would be unfair to young adults that need to leave school early to support their family's" (like we're back in the 1930's !)"  

Jeff


----------



## John Cummings (Oct 28, 2009)

The graduation rates vary a great deal here in Riverside County, California. The graduation rate for the Temecula Valley where I live is better than 90%. We have a metro population of approx. 350,000. The graduation rate for Coachella ( east of Palm Springs ) is 65%.


----------



## Stressy (Oct 29, 2009)

Liz Wolf-Spada said:


> California is a budgetary nightmare. My school which is a title 1 school due to poverty and has many second language learners, many kids whose parents are on drugs or in jail etc, my school raised our test scores on API 55 points last year. That is huge. Given that success, you would think we would be encouraged to keep doing whatever we are doing. However, our administrator has cut our copy machine usage to 500 copies PER YEAR per class. That is one ream of paper. (She also just used that same copier to send home a 14 page newsletter.) We have access to an old duplo machine that is slow and hard to use, always breaking and can't collate. How many businesses would function well with basic necessities being cut? We still have some class size reduction but it was cut for 3rd grade altogether 2 years ago and K-2 is now at 24 kids and likely to lose class size reduction altogether next year. It's a very difficutl time. I'm hoping that if students lose 5 days of class time parents will realize we really do have a budget crisis and elect some new legislators to Sacramento. As a 5th grade teacher for the last 2 years, I can assure you that after state testing, they are very much mentally tuned out, so losing 5 days at the end would have little impact. As a k teacher this year, I think I will see it differently.
> Liz



Hey Liz,

I read today where your district is going ahead with the five less school days...makes me wonder if the rest of us in the High Desert will follow suit. I was happy to read that your class sizes would only increase by one student. We have 35 students  in our K classes...it's a challenge to say the least.


----------



## Liz Wolf-Spada (Oct 29, 2009)

Stressy, where are you? I cannot imagine accomplishing the K curriculum with 35 kids in a class. It is hard enough with 24! Yes, we will have 10 furlough days, 5 from a shorter year, 5 non-student days (same ones we lost this year). Our district will be charging students for bus transportation.
Liz


----------



## GaryDouglas (Oct 30, 2009)

Liz Wolf-Spada said:


> I cannot imagine accomplishing the K curriculum with 35 kids in a class. It is hard enough with 24!


 
Being a leading edge member of the Baby Boom, most of my K-12 classes had between 32 and 34 students. I have seen enough data from other countries that have larger class sizes and spend less money per pupil and have better results than our school system to see that these are not the determining factor for a better education. We need good teachers with willing pupils and supportive parents. That is a three legged stool where if any one of them is deficient, the stool leans over and even falls over. The reason we don't do the later is because it is very hard to pull off with today's society in America. It was much easier in the 50's. We had a different mindset then. We were raised by survivors of the Great Depression and WWII. They gave us what they didn't have when they grew up, but in the process we became mentally spoiled. The feel-good solutions of spending more money and having smaller class sizes are nothing compared to getting back to basics and having a equally strong three legged educatioinal stool of participation. I am not hopeful on this issue...


----------



## Stressy (Oct 30, 2009)

Liz Wolf-Spada said:


> Stressy, where are you? I cannot imagine accomplishing the K curriculum with 35 kids in a class. It is hard enough with 24! Yes, we will have 10 furlough days, 5 from a shorter year, 5 non-student days (same ones we lost this year). Our district will be charging students for bus transportation.
> Liz



Liz,

I am in Hesperia. We lost CSR in K last year but our class sizes were a little more manageable at about 30. This year we lost CSR in all grades. Went from 5 1st grade teachers to 2...they are maxed as well. Projections for 4th grade were 40 in a class...but that didn't pan out...they actually have less.

K is nothing like it was when I attended school-I'm sure it's the same for you. When I was in K-I had a towel in my cubby that we used for daily naps. K today runs at breakneck speed. How I long for that towel and my nap


----------



## Stressy (Oct 30, 2009)

GaryDouglas said:


> Being a leading edge member of the Baby Boom, most of my K-12 classes had between 32 and 34 students. I have seen enough data from other countries that have larger class sizes and spend less money per pupil and have better results than our school system to see that these are not the determining factor for a better education. We need good teachers with willing pupils and supportive parents. That is a three legged stool where if any one of them is deficient, the stool leans over and even falls over. The reason we don't do the later is because it is very hard to pull off with today's society in America. It was much easier in the 50's. We had a different mindset then. We were raised by survivors of the Great Depression and WWII. They gave us what they didn't have when they grew up, but in the process we became mentally spoiled. The feel-good solutions of spending more money and having smaller class sizes are nothing compared to getting back to basics and having a equally strong three legged educatioinal stool of participation. I am not hopeful on this issue...



My K-12 education looked very similar. As I mentioned in the previous post-we even took naps in Kingergarten. Today looks so different. Poverty, Divorce, Crime, it all plays a part in the education process...which in turn makes part of the stool fall down as your mentioned. The saddest part of my job is knowing the teachers simply don't have time to learn about each student and their situation in order to better serve them and help them learn.


----------



## John Cummings (Oct 30, 2009)

GaryDouglas said:


> Being a leading edge member of the Baby Boom, most of my K-12 classes had between 32 and 34 students. I have seen enough data from other countries that have larger class sizes and spend less money per pupil and have better results than our school system to see that these are not the determining factor for a better education. We need good teachers with willing pupils and supportive parents. That is a three legged stool where if any one of them is deficient, the stool leans over and even falls over. The reason we don't do the later is because it is very hard to pull off with today's society in America. It was much easier in the 50's. We had a different mindset then. We were raised by survivors of the Great Depression and WWII. They gave us what they didn't have when they grew up, but in the process we became mentally spoiled. The feel-good solutions of spending more money and having smaller class sizes are nothing compared to getting back to basics and having a equally strong three legged educatioinal stool of participation. I am not hopeful on this issue...



I agree with you. I graduated from High School in 1958. We had between 35-40 kids per class except for the time I went to a rural school that I described in an earlier post. We didn't have any volunteers etc. One teacher had the class by themselves.


----------



## John Cummings (Oct 30, 2009)

Stressy said:


> My K-12 education looked very similar. As I mentioned in the previous post-we even took naps in Kingergarten. Today looks so different. Poverty, Divorce, Crime, it all plays a part in the education process...which in turn makes part of the stool fall down as your mentioned. The saddest part of my job is knowing the teachers simply don't have time to learn about each student and their situation in order to better serve them and help them learn.



When I went to school the teachers did not try to learn anything about the students. They taught their subject(s). If the students couldn't keep up, they failed and had to take the course over or repeat the grade. If they misbehaved, they got disciplined. If the school discilplined the student, then the parents did the same. The teacher wasn't your friend, counselor, etc. they were your teacher.


----------



## John Cummings (Oct 30, 2009)

Stressy said:


> My K-12 education looked very similar. As I mentioned in the previous post-we even took naps in Kingergarten. Today looks so different. Poverty, Divorce, Crime, it all plays a part in the education process...which in turn makes part of the stool fall down as your mentioned. The saddest part of my job is knowing the teachers simply don't have time to learn about each student and their situation in order to better serve them and help them learn.



We had poverty, divorce, and crime in the 50's.


----------



## Liz Wolf-Spada (Oct 30, 2009)

John, I went to school in the 50's and 60's, too. I started teaching pre-school in 1970 and moved here to public school in 1982. The elementary standards have gone way, way up from the days you and I went to school. I watched the change in state standards and it was about 10 years ago. The state board of education pretty much moved many standards down one to two grade levels. Kindergarten always taught letters and sounds, but some students got it and some got it when it was pretty much retaught in first. Now K students are expected to not only know letters and sounds, but to read simple 3 letter words, know 15 sight words, write a complete sentence on their own with capital and ending puncuation and be able to segment words and do sound substitutions. Math standards use to require K students to work with numbers to 10, know it is numbers to 30. 

K students need small group instruction. Having 30 or more students in a class means that each student is getting much less instructional time. This is a problem.

Liz


----------



## Twinkstarr (Oct 30, 2009)

Liz Wolf-Spada said:


> John, I went to school in the 50's and 60's, too. I started teaching pre-school in 1970 and moved here to public school in 1982. The elementary standards have gone way, way up from the days you and I went to school. I watched the change in state standards and it was about 10 years ago. The state board of education pretty much moved many standards down one to two grade levels. Kindergarten always taught letters and sounds, but some students got it and some got it when it was pretty much retaught in first. Now K students are expected to not only know letters and sounds, but to read simple 3 letter words, know 15 sight words, write a complete sentence on their own with capital and ending puncuation and be able to segment words and do sound substitutions. Math standards use to require K students to work with numbers to 10, know it is numbers to 30.
> 
> K students need small group instruction. Having 30 or more students in a class means that each student is getting much less instructional time. This is a problem.
> 
> Liz



I was amazed at the difference in kindergarten from my now 7th grader and his 2nd grade brother. Now the younger one did do the optional all day K, but they were definately required to know more. The one reading evaluation test is now given in K, eldest started that in 1st grade. 

My eldest didn't start doing spelling tests until 1/2 through 1st grade, younger one started right away last year. 

What really surprises me are the number of kids who don't do preschool, even in our somewhat upper middle class district.  

Eldest had 13 kids in his half day k class(public school). Younger one in all day K had 23 with a teacher and an assistant, plus student teachers each for a semester(also public school). 

Here in Ohio, we have a new law that is mandating all day kindergarten, plus smaller class sizes for k-3. I think with our district's ratings they will be able to waive for this first 2 yrs, because we don't have the space. Enrollement up 2.3% this school year for the district, with slightly over half of that coming from parents pulling children out of private schools. And the majority of the increase is in elementary grades.

Unfortunately our board didn't act on the strategic plan 5yrs ago that said we need another building(either an elementary or a 5-6 that could be a 4-6 grade building). Our new super(been on the job for 2 yrs now) really let the board have it at the Septemeber meeting, as most of the board is the same as 5 yrs ago.


----------



## Stressy (Oct 30, 2009)

John Cummings said:


> When I went to school the teachers did not try to learn anything about the students. They taught their subject(s). If the students couldn't keep up, they failed and had to take the course over or repeat the grade. If they misbehaved, they got disciplined. If the school discilplined the student, then the parents did the same. The teacher wasn't your friend, counselor, etc. they were your teacher.



Well that's shame. I am forever indebted to my third grade teacher who knew I had a crappy home life and kept me after school and taught me to crochet. It was a nice respite in my otherwise chaotic life.

It's ok to be human while doing your job.


----------



## northpole (Oct 30, 2009)

Liz Wolf-Spada said:


> Stressy, where are you? I cannot imagine accomplishing the K curriculum with 35 kids in a class. It is hard enough with 24! Yes, we will have 10 furlough days, 5 from a shorter year, 5 non-student days (same ones we lost this year). Our district will be charging students for bus transportation.
> Liz



I can't imagine 35 kids in a K class!  I grew up in Africa (missionary kid) and that was standard in Africa, but I never thought that schools in North America would have such large classes.  

Here in British Columbia the class limit is 22 for K and 24 for grades 1 - 3.  Teachers must have 6 years of university to teach (2 degrees, usually BA followed by B.Ed) and teachers are highly respected and treated.  Teachers' salaries start at 45k per year for first year teachers, and to up to 75k per year for teachers with 10 years experience (for 10 months of teaching, they don't get paid over the summer).  The government tried a few years ago to raise the class limits, but parents were outraged.


----------



## John Cummings (Oct 30, 2009)

Stressy said:


> Well that's shame. I am forever indebted to my third grade teacher who knew I had a crappy home life and kept me after school and taught me to crochet. It was a nice respite in my otherwise chaotic life.
> 
> It's ok to be human while doing your job.



I am not disagreeing with you. I just said the way it was when I went to school.


----------



## John Cummings (Oct 30, 2009)

northpole said:


> I can't imagine 35 kids in a K class!  I grew up in Africa (missionary kid) and that was standard in Africa, but I never thought that schools in North America would have such large classes.
> 
> Here in British Columbia the class limit is 22 for K and 24 for grades 1 - 3.  Teachers must have 6 years of university to teach (2 degrees, usually BA followed by B.Ed) and teachers are highly respected and treated.  Teachers' salaries start at 45k per year for first year teachers, and to up to 75k per year for teachers with 10 years experience (for 10 months of teaching, they don't get paid over the summer).  The government tried a few years ago to raise the class limits, but parents were outraged.



I went to school in British Columbia.


----------



## John Cummings (Oct 30, 2009)

northpole said:


> Here in British Columbia the class limit is 22 for K and 24 for grades 1 - 3.  Teachers must have 6 years of university to teach (2 degrees, usually BA followed by B.Ed) and teachers are highly respected and treated.  Teachers' salaries start at 45k per year for first year teachers, and to up to 75k per year for teachers with 10 years experience (for 10 months of teaching, they don't get paid over the summer).  The government tried a few years ago to raise the class limits, but parents were outraged.



That is much the same as the last 4 school districts where I lived in California.


----------



## GaryDouglas (Nov 1, 2009)

John Cummings said:


> When I went to school the teachers did not try to learn anything about the students. They taught their subject(s). If the students couldn't keep up, they failed and had to take the course over or repeat the grade. If they misbehaved, they got disciplined. If the school discilplined the student, then the parents did the same. The teacher wasn't your friend, counselor, etc. they were your teacher.


 
Back in the mid-80's we had a meeting with my daughter's elementary school principle. She was in first grade at that time. Her school was build the same year the elementary school I went to was (August 1956). And even though they were seperated by over 400 miles, since it was the same state, the architecture was the same. Even the same colors. I reviewed the staff roster with him. Un-imaginable staff bloat. I was very aware of the schools staff at my school because my mother was the president of the PTA from a few years, ran the carnaval and other fund raising activities and hosted teacher parties at our house. In fact, the teachers knew me all too well. We had 1 principle, a full and part time secretary, a full and part time custodian, a part time nurse and librarian, teachers K-6, AND THAT WAS IT! When I told him this he really had no response. That was because, his hands were tied. The Federal and State governments mandate this sort of insanity and we have no control at the local level, which is the only place where anyone can possibly affect positive change. That is why I think we are so SOL. My grandson will enter this system within the next 4 years. God save us. 

[Political comments removed - DeniseM Moderator]


----------



## wilma (Nov 1, 2009)

[Response to political comments removed - DeniseM Moderator]


----------



## DeniseM (Nov 1, 2009)

Folks - Politics is not allowed on TUG.  I know it's difficult not to step over the line with a topic like this one, but let's try harder...


----------

