# Ok, I would love to hear who agrees or not



## jlf58 (May 2, 2011)

My Mom passed away 18 months ago. She was remarried for 10 years as my Dad passed away 20 year ago. The house she lived in was paid in cash by her. Her husband paid most of the bills as that was thier arangement. Basically they kept thier money separate except for this house agreement. The will states 90% of the house is mine and my 2 sisters. 10% goes to him and he gets to live there and we cannot force him out. My Mom has a friend that was kicked out by the kids and she didn't want that to happen to him. Here is where is gets complicated. My Mom was not a stupid lady but certainly was not a math major or a what if kind of person as dad used to handle the finances. The 3 kids had no problem with him staing there but after almost 2 years we feel it's time for him to move. Before you say " your Mom wanted him to stay", hear me out. We know for a fact that she would have thought he would work with us if and when we needed the money. One of my sisters really needs cash and all 3 can use it or this would not be an issue. He would be the first to admit we came before he did as she made that perfectly clear. He is not rich but not poor and can afford to move out plus his kids are all down South and being almost 80, it makes sense to move down there now rather than when he gets sick or dies. We don't want to have the house dumped on our lap one day and have to pay bills so we want him to work with us. I know i could never live in a house knowing my dead wife's kids need the money. If this isn't annoyiong enough, the kids paid for everything when she died, funeral, wake, luncheon etc. How do you let someone else pay for your wife's death ? I have never like him much and like him much less now, to many bad decesions as far as I am concerned. The bottom line is my Mom never thought she would out live him and not alot of thought was given to this will. That plus we know she would expect him to work with us on this issue.
So my question is this, could you live in a house under these conditions ?
Would you not feel an obligation to help your spouses kids consdering the house is 90% there or would you say, screw them, I need to worry about me ? We all 3 think he should work with us, my uncle says no but my aunt says yes. I want to keep this light hearted but would anyone out there say, screw them, I am staying as long as a want ?


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## timeos2 (May 2, 2011)

I would hope he would see the basic unfairness and offer to help out the kids - but that assumes he has funds to do so and that they would take it as prepayment on eventual sale of the house. 

Legally it is his to use until he passes and he owes the family nothing. It's a tough situation but he's within his rights to just stay. 

How about a Home Equity loan on the house? Would he agree to that? Look for reasonable options. Good luck & best wishes for a satisfactory resolution.


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## jlf58 (May 2, 2011)

Its been my experience, he is a very selfish person and this verifies that to me .He has 3 daughters down south that he finds annoying but they are  his family and my Mom made it perfectly clear, THEY need to take care of him when he gets sick, not us. I am not looking for solutions as we are working on that. What I really want to know is how is brave enough to say, I would not move, tough on the kids  ?






timeos2 said:


> I would hope he would see the basic unfairness and offer to help out the kids - but that assumes he has funds to do so and that they would take it as prepayment on eventual sale of the house.
> 
> Legally it is his to use until he passes and he owes the family nothing. It's a tough situation but he's within his rights to just stay.
> 
> How about a Home Equity loan on the house? Would he agree to that? Look for reasonable options. Good luck & best wishes for a satisfactory resolution.


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## Elan (May 2, 2011)

Home Equity Loan was my first thought as well, although it seems as though it may be complicated with so many parties involved.

  What about increasing his share to buy him out?  Give him 20% if he vacates in the next X months. 

  It seems as though he's adhering to the lettter of the will, and that you may have to provide some incentive to swing things your way.

  Best of luck!


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## ace2000 (May 2, 2011)

By granting him 10%, I think your mother was smart enough to want to give him the right to continue living in the house; and I'm sure that 10% allows him to keep living there for as long as he wants to (because he must approve the sale).

So, from his perspective, what is worth more - 10% of the proceeds or the right to live in the house? I'd say the right to live in the house. So, I think it's playing out just like your mother intended for it to. Plus, you mentioned that it was their arrangement for her to pay the house payment and he paid the bills. So, I think you're lucky to get anything out of it. Most arrangements between married couples would have put the house in both of their names.

Just curious, did your mother get assistance from an attorney? Then, I would be 100% convinced about my logic.


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## BevL (May 2, 2011)

Sorry, Fletch, but he's thinking that his wife wanted him to be able to live there for as long as he was able and wanted to.  Sounds like he pays the bills for the house - at least you're not saying you're paying them - he's still healthy at this point and doesn't particularly have a desire to live closer to his family.

The tremendous lifestyle change that a man in his eighties would have to make versus some financial enhancement to yourself and your sisters - his life versus your money.

I'm not saying I wouldn't be frustrated in your situation, but your question was, do you understand how someone can do this and my answer is yes, I do.

Totally different situation if he can't look after himself or afford to support himself.  Then it's time to "do the right thing" from his side. and change the arrangement.  That might include some financial assistance/incentive, whatever you want to call it, to assist in the transition.


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## ace2000 (May 2, 2011)

timeos2 said:


> I would hope he would see the basic unfairness and offer to help out the kids - but that assumes he has funds to do so and that they would take it as prepayment on eventual sale of the house.


 
Not sure I see what's unfair, if he decides to choose to continue living in the house.  In my mind, I think that's what the mother intended to happen.


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## am1 (May 2, 2011)

Who is maintaining the place?  That is where I see the real problem if he decides to stay longer.  He has very little incentive to keep the place sellable.  90% of a good house is a lot more than a lower percentage of a house in disrepair.


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## elaine (May 2, 2011)

This is not going to be what you want to hear. But, he was married to your Mom for 10 years. She wanted to make sure he had this home to live in, for as long as he wanted--and she provided for that. She did not say for up to 2 years, etc., which she could have easily done.  Since she clearly provided for the house this way, I do not think he is necessarily being selfish in his 80s to stay in the house. Elaine


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## JudyH (May 2, 2011)

My dad (97) and late stepmom (96) were married 35 years.  First they moved into her house.  They sold that (money to her daughters) and bought a condo for cash.  A few years ago, they put me, my sister, and two step sisters on the deed.  St. mo. died this past Dec.  Will says Dad stays until he leaves one way or another.  Will also says he can draw on part of her (large) estate to pay his living costs (he has full time help).

Steps want him to move to assisted living and sell condo, get rid of help, save about 4000 per month in bills.

My sister and I don't care what he does.

I think your mom's husband can stay as long as he wants.  And probably will.  Old folks, and many of us, don't like to make changes.


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## tlwmkw (May 2, 2011)

Fairness doesn't really play into this situation.  Legally he can stay there as long as he wants and he may choose to do that.

One option would be for the sibling who really needs the money to offer him their 30% of the house at a fair market price and at that time explain their need for the money.  This would give him a strong message that they really need the money and perhaps convince him to move on.  Hopefully this would really get the message across and help get him going.  If he is selfish as you have said then even this may not work but it might be worth a try.  The other option is the home equity as mentioned above, or a reverse mortgage.

I'm afraid this may not go as you want it to but I hope it does work out for you.  Be careful not to get him too upset- I have a distant cousin who was left a house for her lifetime, as well as interest on her husbands money (the house was a family house and was supposed to go with the money to a nephew).  Anyway, she broke the will and got the house and all the money and the nephew didn't get anything.  She is also a selfish person so beware!

tlwmkw


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## Rose Pink (May 2, 2011)

From his point of view (if I can be so bold as to assume _what_ his POV is):

Stay in the home he shared with his wife (memories of her) and pay only utilities and upkeep vs sell the home and have to pay rent as well as utilities.  I'd stay in the home.  

Sorry, but it is not his problem that his wife's grown children have money troubles.  FWIW, I go through the same thing managing my FIL's money.  He has grown children who could use some help but I need the money to pay for _his_ care, not theirs.  If there is anything left after he dies, then it will be divided according to his wishes as specified in his trust and will.  I've been told that he wanted his money to go to his children and that he didn't want it spent on a nursing home but, tough cookies, he needs round the clock assistance and I was the only one willing to even try having him live in my home.  I had to put him in a nursing home because I was unable to pick him up when he fell (which was often).  None of the other children offered to help me care for him.


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## bogey21 (May 2, 2011)

elaine said:


> This is not going to be what you want to hear. But, he was married to your Mom for 10 years. She wanted to make sure he had this home to live in, for as long as he wanted--and she provided for that. She did not say for up to 2 years, etc., which she could have easily done.  Since she clearly provided for the house this way, I do not think he is necessarily being selfish in his 80s to stay in the house. Elaine



Agree 1000%.  My Stepmother moved my bedridden Grand Father out of my Dad's house about a month after they got married.  They sent him to a convalescence home and he died within the week!!  I have always believed that forcing him out of the house caused his death.

George


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## Rose Pink (May 2, 2011)

As for the talk of selfishness, it goes both ways depending on who is doing the evaluating.

Is the man selfish for not moving out and letting his wife's children have their inheritance sooner than later?   

Are the wife's grown children being selfish because they can't allow an 80 year old man to live in the home he shared with his wife?


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## mo1950 (May 2, 2011)

I wish I could agree with you, Fletch, you sound like a nice guy.  But I just do not.  Maybe I am looking at it from a different perspective - that of your mother.  The home was hers to do with as she wanted, and she wanted her husband to live there until he passed away or was no longer able to live there.  My honest opinion is that her wishes should be followed.  And I feel it would be morally wrong to give her elderly husband trouble about living there.


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## ace2000 (May 2, 2011)

I wonder what would happen if the husband chose to rent out the house? Does he HAVE to live in it?  That would be a huge potential mess to sort out.

Anyway, it still comes down to what's better for him... 10% of the proceeds or the right to live in the house rent-free?


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## jlf58 (May 2, 2011)

It's alot more complicated than I have explained. For alot of reason, the kids don't think this is what she would have wanted and or meant. I don't mind people not agreeing and I dont even talk to him for other actions of his. I know I could never live in the house if I was him, that I am sure about.




mo1950 said:


> I wish I could agree with you, Fletch, you sound like a nice guy.  But I just do not.  Maybe I am looking at it from a different perspective - that of your mother.  The home was hers to do with as she wanted, and she wanted her husband to live there until he passed away or was no longer able to live there.  My honest opinion is that her wishes should be followed.  And I feel it would be morally wrong to give her elderly husband trouble about living there.


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## ace2000 (May 2, 2011)

Fletch said:


> It's alot more complicated than I have explained. For alot of reason, the kids don't think this is what she would have wanted and or meant. I don't mind people not agreeing and I dont even talk to him for other actions of his. I know I could never live in the house if I was him, that I am sure about.


 
Fletch, you'd have to provide more information then. You said in the first post that their arrangement was for her to pay the house payment and he paid the bills. That tells me that there was some kind of mutual agreement on all of the bills together. 

I think you should feel lucky to have been on your current side of the arrangement. How would you feel if you were one of _his_ kids?


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## vacationhopeful (May 2, 2011)

Your mother and her 2nd husband had an arrangement. It seems to be a reasonable setup. And who paid for the funeral should have been discussed then - it has nothing to do with the house now. Called 'water under the bridge'.

Sorry if it is not to your and your siblings liking. You all were counting your chickens before they hatched. Until he dies, that house is his to live in. 

And for taking out a mortgage on the place, *bet YOU CAN'T!* He is a co-owner - he owns 10%. You can't sell it; you can't mortgage it; you can't evict him. That is why he is a 10% owner.

You can't move in with him (he is in possession). You can't use the garage or land (he is in possession). 

*And you all better treat him REAL NICE *- because he could decide that you all OWE him 90% of the taxes, insurance, grass mowing, tree trimming, and house upkeep (roof, furance, windows, and doors) - as YOU all own 90% of those bills by being co-owners. Water, sewer, electric and gas are his usage and his bills.


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## dumbydee (May 2, 2011)

The children are being selfish in my opinion.  She had a will that left the man 10% and life time residence......which does not equate to 2 years....

If the grown children are having money problems that is their problems not the step dad's problems.  

At his age he should not be made to feel guilty for living in "His" home....because it is his "Home" until he decides to move or dies.  

One of my pet peeves is children that expect to get an inheritence and can't wait till a person is buried before bickering over what is left.

NOT saying this is what you are doing.


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## vacationhopeful (May 2, 2011)

PS. Old people win sympathy in court unless they smell bad. :ignore: 

Listen to your uncle. You and your siblings are getting angry because you are not getting your way. There is no reason for this. 

And is the reason you are unhappy with him because your mother told you all HE wouldn't go along with other schemes you all had for your mom's money before she died? Sounds like they were in cohorts - that is what a marriage is.

Remember this fact: It was always YOUR MOM's HOUSE. Never yours. You had nothing before she died; you still have nothing. What did you lose? 

*You all need to change your attitude of entitlement to "it is not yours and never was".* Any amount of money that might come to you whenever, is a total gift.


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## John Cummings (May 2, 2011)

Fletch, I don't expect you to understand his situation as you are not elderly. I am sure you would have a different perspective if you were his age. Obviously your mother wanted him to be able to stay in the house as long as he can or wanted to. He is not being selfish.

You just have to accept the fact that he isn't going anywhere for awhile.


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## jlf58 (May 2, 2011)

He is responsible for ALL bills and maitanance. As far as being nice to him, I am only nice to people who deserve it. I don't treat people nice just because it might be to my advantage.That would be a sell out which I am not.
As far as being selfish, I think thats funny coming from someone with limited facts. I never said I was argry, mad, whatever, just asking for opions on what you would feel. I am
very comfortable with my opinion and how I have handled it,thank you !! 

and John, being not as old WILL NOT change my mind. I could not live in the house, period !! Not saying I am right or wrong, thats just how I feel 



1103005]Your mother and her 2nd husband had an arrangement. It seems to be a reasonable setup. And who paid for the funeral should have been discussed then - it has nothing to do with the house now. Called 'water under the bridge'.

Sorry if it is not to your and your siblings liking. You all were counting your chickens before they hatched. Until he dies, that house is his to live in. 

And for taking out a mortgage on the place, *bet YOU CAN'T!* He is a co-owner - he owns 10%. You can't sell it; you can't mortgage it; you can't evict him. That is why he is a 10% owner.

You can't move in with him (he is in possession). You can't use the garage or land (he is in possession). 

*And you all better treat him REAL NICE *- because he could decide that you all OWE him 90% of the taxes, insurance, grass mowing, tree trimming, and house upkeep (roof, furance, windows, and doors) - as YOU all own 90% of those bills by being co-owners. Water, sewer, electric and gas are his usage and his bills.[/QUOTE]


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## SueDonJ (May 2, 2011)

Count me in with the rest who are sympathetic to your stepfather's situation.  When I am his age, I hope and pray there aren't family members waiting impatiently for me to get out of the home I shared happily with my deceased spouse.

(Fletch, on a personal note - please try very hard to not let this fester to the point where you no longer can think of the good life your mother shared with this man.  In my family, nine of us siblings have such a severely strained relationship with one other because of what happened twenty years ago after we lost our parents (both in their early 50's, lost within eleven months of each other,) that we no longer speak to her.  We were young (most of us in our teens/20's) and shell-shocked by the circumstances then - you and your siblings hopefully can deal with more maturity than we could.)


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## Egret1986 (May 2, 2011)

*Fletch, I think you asked for opinions, but were really looking for agreement.*



Rose Pink said:


> As for the talk of selfishness, it goes both ways depending on who is doing the evaluating.
> 
> Is the man selfish for not moving out and letting his wife's children have their inheritance sooner than later?
> 
> Are the wife's grown children being selfish because they can't allow an 80 year old man to live in the home he shared with his wife?



No matter your opinion of this mine, he was your mother's husband and she provided for HIM.



mo1950 said:


> I wish I could agree with you, Fletch, you sound like a nice guy.  But I just do not.  Maybe I am looking at it from a different perspective - that of your mother.  The home was hers to do with as she wanted, and she wanted her husband to live there until he passed away or was no longer able to live there.  My honest opinion is that her wishes should be followed.  And I feel it would be morally wrong to give her elderly husband trouble about living there.



Again, this was your mother's wishes.  Why are you wanting her wishes undone and making her husband out to be the "bad" guy because you can't undo her wishes?



vacationhopeful said:


> Sorry if it is not to your and your siblings liking. You all were counting your chickens before they hatched. Until he dies, that house is his to live in.



That's what it boils down to....



dumbydee said:


> The children are being selfish in my opinion.  She had a will that left the man 10% and life time residence......which does not equate to 2 years....
> 
> If the grown children are having money problems that is their problems not the step dad's problems.
> 
> ...



This quote sums up everything in my opinion.  



vacationhopeful said:


> Listen to your uncle. You and your siblings are getting angry because you are not getting your way. There is no reason for this.
> 
> And is the reason you are unhappy with him because your mother told you all HE wouldn't go along with other schemes you all had for your mom's money before she died? Sounds like they were in cohorts - that is what a marriage is.
> 
> ...



Entitlement?  It is not yours and never was.  



SueDonJ said:


> Count me in with the rest who are sympathetic to your stepfather's situation.  When I am his age, I hope and pray there aren't family members waiting impatiently for me to get out of the home I shared happily with my deceased spouse.



Sure hope when you're older, there aren't impatient family members waiting for you to get out of the way for the sake of "money."  There's enough other things to deal with when old age comes a' knockin' at the door.  

Sure, you haven't shared the "whole" story, but I don't think any more of the story would change anything.....Mom's wishes, period.


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## Big Matt (May 2, 2011)

What if the scenario went this way:

Mother created a trust fund with 90% going to the kids, but only upon second husband's death.  Second husband gets 10% of the trust now.

My guess is that everyone would be okay with this given that it isn't something that could be sold.  The kids would probably be pissed, but accept their mother's wishes.  

It's really the same thing in the end, but the fact that he's in the house and it isn't a liquid asset anymore causes angst.


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## Dave M (May 2, 2011)

ace2000 said:


> Just curious, did you mother get assistance from an attorney?


I'll wager a lot that the answer is yes. Most likely, the will shows it was prepared by an attorney and that one or more of the witnesses to the will are staff in the attorney's office. 

The scenario that Fletch quotes is a common estate planning provision to ensure exactly what is happening - that he gets to live in the house as long as he chooses to do so. Normally, the subject comes up because the person whose will is being drafted says to the attorney something like, "I want my kids to eventually get the house but I want to be sure my spouse can continue to live there as long as he wants." 

It's the attorney's obligation in such a planning maneuver to explain in detail exactly what the proposed provision means. You can be sure the attorney's files detail exactly what was explained to her in this situation. 

I'm with the majority here. I think the kids should accept that, no matter what they want, this arrangement is what their mother wanted. If the kids want further evidence, they should ask for a visit with the attorney who drafted the will and ask how the provision came to be included in the will. That might give them a better understanding of their mother's thinking.


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## Mel (May 2, 2011)

Fletch said:


> It's alot more complicated than I have explained. For alot of reason, the kids don't think this is what she would have wanted and or meant. I don't mind people not agreeing and I dont even talk to him for other actions of his. I know I could never live in the house if I was him, that I am sure about.



How was this spelled out in the will?  Does he have life tenancy?

Perhaps you need to look at it this way:

Option 1 - as is being done now:

If he stays in the house, he pays the utilities, but no rent.  His equity in his share of the house remains fairly stable - when he is ready to move on, he get 10% of the selling price of the house.  You each get your 30% of the house at that time.

If you are able to take out a loan on your 30% share of the house, you would pay interest, but your share of the house would remain stable.

Option 2 - as you would like it:

If he moves out now, he pays utilities plus rent.  Assuming the house is sold, he gets his equity stake, and it can be invested to help pay that rent.

But you each also get your 30%, and can invest it (or avoid interest payments on a loan against the home).

This option is far more to your advantage, because as was already suggested, you are getting your inheritance early.  There actually is nothing standing in the way of the 3 of you selling your share of the house.  While it is encumbered by a life tenant, it can still be sold.  The buyer would simply be buying your equity, and future right to occupy the house.


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## ace2000 (May 2, 2011)

Fletch said:


> If this isn't annoyiong enough, the kids paid for everything when she died, funeral, wake, luncheon etc. How do you let someone else pay for your wife's death ?


 
One last comment from me... (and I'm gone). You mention funeral expenses... I'm willing to bet that your mother either had a life insurance policy or some other value in her estate to cover her funeral. Which would indicate that the life insurance proceeds or estate proceeds went to you and your brothers/sisters.

Another piece of information that you don't mention is what has already passed on to the kids (you and the rest of your side of the family) in the estate? I'm willing to bet again, that you've already got something. 

Anyhow, sorry for the speculation, but just want you to see the _other_ perspective.


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## Kagehitokiri2 (May 2, 2011)

isnt the most important thing trying to protect the house with some kind of thing he has to abide by in terms of not damaging it? hes like a renter.

if its a will and not a trust, it can be argued during probate.


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## laurac260 (May 2, 2011)

I haven't clue one what the correct answer is, having never been in this situation, but I do have a question.

If he is 10% owner, what happens when he DOES die?  Who gets his 10%?


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## Dave M (May 2, 2011)

laurac260 said:


> If he is 10% owner, what happens when he DOES die?  Who gets his 10%?


The person named in his will. If he has no will, it goes to his next of kin. "Next of kin" can vary based on state law.


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## jlf58 (May 2, 2011)

His daughters, which opens up a whole can of worms. I am not looking forward to dealing with them if he dies before its sold. I have less of a problem with him living there than I do him owning the 10%.
I breifly talked to my Mom about it at the end and she agreed with me but didn't want to change it as she didnt think it would look good. I would have much rather giving him cash but that's not an option now.
She didn't give much thought as she was convinced he would die way before her. 
I don't know why but I will throw you guys one more bone as to why I feel the way I do. My Mom spent upwards of $40,000 on Healthcare the last 6 months and when she asked him to chip in as she was running out of money, he said no. Let's just say certain opinions she had changed a bit as she was very hurt and angry. me, I was just angry  !! 



laurac260 said:


> I haven't clue one what the correct answer is, having never been in this situation, but I do have a question.
> 
> If he is 10% owner, what happens when he DOES die?  Who gets his 10%?


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## Mel (May 2, 2011)

Kagehitokiri2 said:


> isnt the most important thing trying to protect the house with some kind of thing he has to abide by in terms of not damaging it? hes like a renter.
> 
> if its a will and not a trust, it can be argued during probate.



A life tenant has a legal obligation to not damage the land.  If he did, in some states, the owners of the remainder (Fletch and siblings) would be able to collect treble damages, and the life tenancy could be revoked by a court.

Unfortunately for Fletch, it is his right to remain in the property - and further, even if he moves out, he also has the right to "sell" his life tenancy, and allow someone else the right to use the property until his death, or to lease it until then, with all proceeds going to him.  Fletch and siblings have no current right to the property, only a future interest.

While they would like their money now, one solution to the issue of the daughter would be to arrange to buy his 10% future interest now - it has nothing to do with the life tenancy.  Then perhaps work with a potential buyer who might be willing to lease the home until he dies, if he is willing to move out.  If that is done, all lease payments go to him, so it still doesn't solve the issue of wanting the money now.

The real issue is that you don't own anything until he dies.  Mom should have changed the will, as guilty as that might have made her feel.


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## heathpack (May 2, 2011)

I think that it is hard for people with normal, loving relatives to understand the hard line stance that others take with more "pathologic" relatives.  I have an older relative who has always been a challenge- manipulative, selfish, downright appalling behavior at times.  I don't even like to give examples because the examples can make me sound a little crazy myself- some of the stories are really outrageous!  The way I deal with this relative on an emotional level is to draw very strict boundaries and stick to them.  These boundaries look harsh to folks outside the situation, but believe me they are the only way of dealing with this particular person.  So I think I may understand where you are coming from with this stepfather.  

That said, it seems like your low opinion of him may be clouding your assesment of the situation.  He is living in the home that his mother intended him to be able to stay in for the rest of his life if he so chose.  He is under no obligation to move out and I don't see how your sister needing money really influences that.  She needs money, he needs a place to live- both needs are legitimate.  I am not sure why you feel you would not stay in the home under similar circumstances.  Is it just that you think the older generation should sacrifice for the sake of the younger generation?  Is it because you feel like he does not have a moral right to be there because he did not help you mother out when she was ill?  If its the latter, I am sure he does not give a second thought to his actions- he is probably a selfish guy who has justified many similar actions in his own mind.  For your own peace of mind, you should probably give up any hope of his doing something you would consider generous- any other expectation would likely wind up causing more frustration. 

Sounds like a difficult situation, evenutally it will be solved.  But out of spite, I bet the guy lives to be 100.

H


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## sail27bill (May 2, 2011)

Fletch--you seem like a nice person from your posts.  It is probably hard for you to deal with this considering all that has happened since your mom's death. However, I feel for your stepfather.  He is old and probably set in his ways.  The question I have for you is "Did he make your Mom happy?  I ask this because my father died 20 years ago.  He was a good man, but his relationship with my mom was always complicated.  They got on real good in the last few years of his life, but needless to say, Mom had a hard life.  

Five years ago she married my stepfather after knowing him for almost seven years.  He is a good man but never married and had children.  It took him a long time to get used to sharing my mom with us.  My mother redid her will last year.  She asked that all her assets be split amongst her children.  The thing is she did not put him in her will.  This is a sticking point for me.  I know she loves him dearly.  I have grown to love him and my children see him as their grandfather...I can imagine he was hurt by this.  I am executor of her will and they own a coop together.  There is no way I would kick him out.  (If left to my siblings, however, I am not too sure they would want him to stay as they tend to look out for their own interests, and being that my siblings are difficult, I hope my mom lives a long, long time).  Thankfully, he owns half of the coop, and as my husband will be sworn in this month in NY, I am going to make sure that he is taken care of.  He has provided my Mom with happiness and he is a gentle man...I truly believe my mom excluding him was because 1) she was afraid if she died first she did not want his family to get her stuff and 2) her family and my other siblings reminded her that the children should come first.  

I know you are probably unhappy about how this has played out, but he has paid for the upkeep and bills for the last 10 plus years.  Trying to force him out could backfire and make it for a more unpleasant situation than it is.  I would suggest explaining your sisters situation, and if it is possible to sell the house and find him another place.  If he doesn't want to move, talking to his family (remember he gets 10% and they may want some of that) might help. 

I just saw your point about not helping out with her medical bills.  That is a tough one.  My mother and my stepfather each pay their separate bills...separate accounts and all.  I wonder if he felt it was the children's obligations and not his? or he could ill afford it.  Only you know what kind of person he truly is.  I have family that I really wish I weren't related to, but for the sake of peace, I try my best to be civil and move on.

Either way, I wish you the best of luck.  I know someday I will be in a similiar situation and I hope to have the courage to do what I feel is right as noone can fully understand what the true situation is unless it is happening to them.

Regards,
Anita

Added:  I will be paying for mom's funeral and all other expenses as well.  She has life insurance (not a lot) so I will be paying for things out of pocket.  I know I will not see one cent from my siblings or my stepfather, but I am okay with it because she is my mother.  Separating feelings from the unpleasantness of the situation will be hard.  Again, best of luck.


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## Egret1986 (May 2, 2011)

*Fletch, I apologize for my previous judgemental post of your situation*

It hit a nerve with me and, fortunately, I decided to react before thinking about it.

You asked if folks agreed or disagreed.  I disagree, but I won't sit in judgement of how you're feeling and what you want to happen.

I hope not to find myself in the circumstances that you are currently in and may be for some time.  Until I personally experience those circumstances and know for sure how I would feel and react; I can't sit here and judge how you're feeling about what you would like to happen.  I know that I would hope to handle things the "right" way, but in all fairness I don't really know that I would be able to follow through.

Jeepers, I've seen people do things that they wouldn't normally do because of money.  Crazy stuff.  We all have and that's what first hit me.  The "money" thing.

Again, I apologize for reacting and judging.  These are the kinds of things that can take time off your life; at the very least, time away from your enjoyment of life.

Best wishes in coming to terms with the situation or finding a workable solution that is best for all.


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## mpizza (May 2, 2011)

First of all, sorry about the loss of your Mom.



Fletch said:


> So my question is this, could you live in a house under these conditions ?



Personally, I wouldn't live in a house if the co-owners asked if they could sell it.   

Have you had a frank conversation with him?  Perhaps he's not aware of your needs or thinks he's doing you a favor by keeping it well-maintained while the real estate value increases.

I would not speak to any ill-will in the relationship or his age or bring up anything about what Mom did or didn't want or didn't get a chance to correct before she passed.   I think you should consider this a business relationship, and when it is not working for all parties, it needs to be re-negotiated.

Maria


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## Tia (May 2, 2011)

Interesting topic. The TUG community is a good place to bounce things off others, who see things from many diverse points of view.  Guess I lean towards the opinion that your stepfather should be able to stay in the house while he is able to maintain and pay for it as the will stated. 

Life can be so complicated.


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## myip (May 2, 2011)

Have you ask him whether he will move out?  If he says no, then you can't do anything about it.   It is his right.  He may want to help out and move out.  - give him some incentive and try working with him.


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## Sea Six (May 2, 2011)

Wait until the old guy marries a 30 year old babe and she inherits his 10%.


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## scrapngen (May 3, 2011)

Fletch said:


> My Mom passed away 18 months ago. She was remarried for 10 years as my Dad passed away 20 year ago. The house she lived in was paid in cash by her. Her husband paid most of the bills as that was thier arangement. Basically they kept thier money separate except for this house agreement. The will states 90% of the house is mine and my 2 sisters. 10% goes to him and he gets to live there and we cannot force him out. My Mom has a friend that was kicked out by the kids and she didn't want that to happen to him. Here is where is gets complicated. My Mom was not a stupid lady but certainly was not a math major or a what if kind of person as dad used to handle the finances. The 3 kids had no problem with him staing there but after almost 2 years we feel it's time for him to move. Before you say " your Mom wanted him to stay", hear me out. We know for a fact that she would have thought he would work with us if and when we needed the money. One of my sisters really needs cash and all 3 can use it or this would not be an issue. He would be the first to admit we came before he did as she made that perfectly clear. He is not rich but not poor and can afford to move out plus his kids are all down South and being almost 80, it makes sense to move down there now rather than when he gets sick or dies. We don't want to have the house dumped on our lap one day and have to pay bills so we want him to work with us. I know i could never live in a house knowing my dead wife's kids need the money. If this isn't annoyiong enough, the kids paid for everything when she died, funeral, wake, luncheon etc. How do you let someone else pay for your wife's death ? I have never like him much and like him much less now, to many bad decesions as far as I am concerned. The bottom line is my Mom never thought she would out live him and not alot of thought was given to this will. That plus we know she would expect him to work with us on this issue.
> So my question is this, could you live in a house under these conditions ?
> Would you not feel an obligation to help your spouses kids consdering the house is 90% there or would you say, screw them, I need to worry about me ? We all 3 think he should work with us, my uncle says no but my aunt says yes. I want to keep this light hearted but would anyone out there say, screw them, I am staying as long as a want ?



Fletch, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of your Mom. I also feel for you dealing with the emotional/financial fall-out...

Personally, I have to agree with the general feelings on this thread that your father-in-law has the right to stay in the house as long as he wants, as this was your mother's choice. She had a chance to change the will, you said, but she chose not to. Therefore, she was ok with him occupying the house as long as he wished, regardless of whether he helped her with her large bills near the end. You don't indicate that she was not in her right mind - therefore, she let the will stand - even if she felt some guilt to for you and your siblings and shared that dismay.

I felel this way, even though I have been through some craziness myself with the deaths of both of my parents and lots of disfunctional siblings...(I really do understand your dismay in so many ways!!) My dad died first - leaving my stepmom. His will basically leaves it all to her until her death - then supposedly divides whatever is left between our six - now five - siblings and her five children.  Who are systematically whittling the money away from her and living in the house. Needless to say, I expect to see nothing from my dad. And I'm ok with that. My Mom passed away more recently and quietly put her house in my sister's name 5 years before she actually died. Also basically left everything physical to her except for a few things here and there. Then she specified that her cash be split equally between all the kids - we each got about $1000. (!) Right before she died, my sister had her put a brand new $10,000 water heater in, and new roof, etc. etc. into that house that is my sister's.  Believe me, all of us did a lot for her, and all could have used the money. 

Anyway, I give this background to let you know that we really even questioned my mom's state of mind - yet still decided to let go and watch my sister enjoy that house that she scared my mom into leaving to her. (basically threatening her with being placed in a  poor retirement home if she didn't get everything)  Does she sleep easy at night?? You betcha. And I imagine your stepfather does, too. 

This goes to answering your question about how this man can continue to live in that house despite his actions. My theory without knowing more than your input is that he has justified his actions as being quite logical and that he probably feels he treated your mother quite well and deserves to live where he has paid the bills for so long. Or whatever. Sorry, but I bet that if he was the one writing this thread it would read much differently - even if your version is 100% accurate. I'm sure he views himself far better than you do.


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## glypnirsgirl (May 3, 2011)

In Texas, if a married couple was living in a home together at the time of one of their death's the survivor gets a life estate in the home even if the will provides that the children will inherit the decedent's home. It does not matter whose home it was before the marriage. It does not matter who paid for what. What matters is who was living in the house at the time of death.

I am so used to this concept that it would not occur to me to ask him to move out. 

To me, it does not matter if he is selfish, disagreeable, miserly. His personality is immaterial. 

There is a big difference between the rational/legal part and the emotional part. 

It is the emotional side that declares that this is not fair. What it sounds like to me is that you feel that he does not deserve what your mother left him because he was selfish. The sad part is, it does not matter what you feel. It does not matter if he gets more than what he deserves. What matters is what the will states.

Now, to answer the question could I continue to live in a house that I received a life estate in and owned 10% of even if one of my children needed me to move out so that they could cash out their share. It depends. Why does the child need the money? If it is because of overspending, no way am  I going to put at risk my financial health to enable their free spending. If it is because they have a catastrophe that was totally beyond their control, loss of income due to disability, there is no way that I would want to continue to stay if I could afford to move. 

elaine


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## ronparise (May 3, 2011)

My dad left a million bucks to his wife (not my mother) and her kids will get whats left when she goes...his kids got squat....so I feel your pain....but at least you know you will get your 90% when its his time.

And you have to wait. Its too late to second guess your mothers intent


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## teepeeca (May 3, 2011)

The home was fully paid for by the wife---probably BEFORE her husband entered the picture.  She DID NOT make house payments (home already paid for) and HE made all of the payments regarding the house (utilities/taxes/maintenance).

The mother wanted to leave her new husband a "life-estate" in the home, and was VERY GENEROUS to the children, giving them each a 30% interest in the home.  She could have given her husband a 100% interest in the house !!!

A child, or children, "could use the $$$, NOW"!!!  Probably, 99% of children, or older adults, could use extra $$$ NOW.  So what?  Times can be easy, or hard.  It is up to each of us to "plan", and execute, how best to live our lives.

Tony


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## Patri (May 3, 2011)

I haven't read all the posts, but if your mom was still alive you wouldn't get the money now either. The grown kids have to support themselves. They are adults! Sounds like you see your mom only as a money bag and you were just waiting for your inheritance.
The man should stay as long as he wants to. Leave him alone.


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## caribbeansun (May 3, 2011)

Sorry for your loss.

This is why people have wills - it allows them to state exactly what it is they wish to have happen.  What has happened is in accordance with the will which is what the mother wanted.  It's too bad it doesn't suit the childrens' idea of what should now happen and it unfortunate that they now feel a sense of entitlement to something that is not theirs.

 The OP seems to think that they knew an awful lot of what their mother wanted but yet none of those were expressed in the will.

Bottom-line is that there are only two people that knew entirely what their agreement(s) were and one of them isn't here any longer.

Second marriages are complicated for everyone during life and afterwards as well.


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## pwrshift (May 3, 2011)

Isn't there sometimes a 'marital home' rule that permits a life partner to automatically inherit 50% of the home regardless of what the will declares?  If so, the 90% share to the children could be in jeopardy in court.

Brian


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## jlf58 (May 3, 2011)

What is even more unfortunate is you reading into what was and wasn't know by the children. You did put sorry for your loss so I guess you assine comment should be forgiven.





caribbeansun said:


> Sorry for your loss.
> 
> This is why people have wills - it allows them to state exactly what it is they wish to have happen.  What has happened is in accordance with the will which is what the mother wanted.  It's too bad it doesn't suit the childrens' idea of what should now happen and it unfortunate that they now feel a sense of entitlement to something that is not theirs.
> 
> ...


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## Tia (May 3, 2011)

Similar happened to my dad's mother and his siblings, only then could some siblings see who the one brother really was. Am sure he felt justified and slept very well at night.   You just can't let it get to you, very very hard to do. 



scrapngen said:


> ...
> I feel this way, even though I have been through some craziness myself with the deaths of both of my parents and lots of disfunctional siblings...(I really do understand your dismay in so many ways!!) ... My Mom passed away more recently and quietly put her house in my sister's name 5 years before she actually died. Also basically left everything physical to her except for a few things here and there. Then she specified that her cash be split equally between all the kids - we each got about $1000. (!) Right before she died, my sister had her put a brand new $10,000 water heater in, and new roof, etc. etc. into that house that is my sister's.  Believe me, all of us did a lot for her, and all could have used the money.
> ...


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## Kagehitokiri2 (May 3, 2011)

Mel said:


> Unfortunately for Fletch, it is his right to remain in the property - and further, even if he moves out, he also has the right to "sell" his life tenancy, and allow someone else the right to use the property until his death, or to lease it until then, with all proceeds going to him.  Fletch and siblings have no current right to the property, only a future interest.


kind of "bad news" but "good news" its not transferable

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_estate


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## Tia (May 3, 2011)

So if step-dad seeks legal advise this is a possibility.



Mel said:


> ...
> 
> Unfortunately for Fletch, it is his right to remain in the property - and further, even if he moves out, he also has the right to "sell" his life tenancy, and allow someone else the right to use the property until his death, or to lease it until then, with all proceeds going to him.  Fletch and siblings have no current right to the property, only a future interest....


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## vacationhopeful (May 3, 2011)

Fletch:

Your emotions seem to me to be very raw. Whatever the reasons behind the terms of your mother's will, her final expenses, her medical costs for the last month's of her life, your grief at the passing of your last parent, and the current financial needs of yourself and siblings can not be altered. 

There are age old "catch phrases" used to describe in literature the human condition - I will skip adding new ones to this thread. Your grief is very real to you; I am sorry for your lost. 

Please understand, if there is an afterlife, is your goal to tell your mom that "she screw up and left you all in ruin"? Would this allow her to gain eternal rest? Could she reach down and change anything?

If there is no afterlife, who is living in this pain? Is this a pain that begins to consume you to where you can not enjoy life or your family? Is this how your mother raised you? Would she had planned this life for you?

I don't know you and most likely will never meet you. I battled my demons in my life. My last recommendation is:

*You should read and reflect on the words in the "Serenity Prayer". *

I shall wish you happiness and good health for you and your family.


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## jlf58 (May 3, 2011)

My emotions are fine and I just asked for opinions and thought your comments were assine, thats pretty much it. I wish it was more complicated but it isn't. Just because you have demons doesn't mean everyone does.BTW Good luck with that !!  





vacationhopeful said:


> Fletch:
> 
> Your emotions seem to me to be very raw. Whatever the reasons behind the terms of your mother's will, her final expenses, her medical costs for the last month's of her life, your grief at the passing of your last parent, and the current financial needs of yourself and siblings can not be altered.
> 
> ...


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## ace2000 (May 3, 2011)

Fletch, I think you should request that the moderators lock this thread.  It's starting to get very personal and I'm not sure there's anything else to be gained.  For me, I've appreciated the posts from the TUG members with the legal knowlege.

I was also involved in a similar situation with an inheritance from my grandmother.  For me, it was a very profitable car wash business that I was left holding a share of only when an uncle passed away.  It was not fun sorting that one out.  It was also very frustrating having to wait.

I appreciate you sharing your story, it's been an interesting read.


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## jlf58 (May 3, 2011)

I have actually asked to lock it but Dave is out having a good time   so if another rep is out there, please lock !! thanks for the opinions 




ace2000 said:


> Fletch, I think you should request that the moderators lock this thread.  It's starting to get very personal and I'm not sure there's anything else to be gained.  For me, I've appreciated the posts from the TUG members with the legal knowlege.
> 
> I was also involved in a similar situation with an inheritance from my grandmother.  For me, it was a very profitable car wash business that I was left holding a share of only when an uncle passed away.  It was not fun sorting that one out.  It was also very frustrating having to wait.
> 
> I appreciate you sharing your story, it's been an interesting read.


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## vacationhopeful (May 3, 2011)

Fletch said:


> My emotions are fine and I just asked for opinions and *thought your comments were assine*, thats pretty much it. I wish it was more complicated but it isn't. Just because you have demons doesn't mean everyone does.BTW Good luck with that !!



Personal attacks??? From you! I wish your step-father a long life. :hysterical:


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## jlf58 (May 3, 2011)

And I wish you good luck with those demons and addictions ... 



vacationhopeful said:


> Personal attacks??? From you! I wish your step-father a long life. :hysterical:


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## PigsDad (May 3, 2011)

Fletch -- you posted here hoping others would confirm your feelings and agree with you.  That hasn't happened, but there is no reason to digress to personal attacks.  Nothing good can come of that.


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## jlf58 (May 3, 2011)

Understood, I appreciate the opinions but when people speculate about personal relationships, what was said and not said and other stupid things, thats where I draw the line. Thats why I asked to close they thread !! 
BTW, calling a comment assine is not a personal attack. 



PigsDad said:


> Fletch -- you posted here hoping others would confirm your feelings and agree with you.  That hasn't happened, but there is no reason to digress to personal attacks.  Nothing good can come of that.


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## Kagehitokiri2 (May 3, 2011)

removed....


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## glypnirsgirl (May 3, 2011)

Fletch said:


> My emotions are fine and I just asked for opinions and thought your comments were assine, thats pretty much it. I wish it was more complicated but it isn't. Just because you have demons doesn't mean everyone does.BTW Good luck with that !!



WOW! What a response to someone who was expressing concern.

elaine


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## Egret1986 (May 3, 2011)

*Think what the "old guy" must be going through based on that response and others*



glypnirsgirl said:


> WOW! What a response to someone who was expressing concern.
> 
> elaine



WOW! is right.


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## geekette (May 3, 2011)

Actually doesn't matter what any of us think, you're stuck with him.

Whichever of you is most diplomatic might broach the subject with him GENTLY.  If it becomes cantankerous you lose.

GOOD LUCK!!!


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## hvacrsteve (May 3, 2011)

Fletch said:


> My Mom passed away 18 months ago. She was remarried for 10 years as my Dad passed away 20 year ago. The house she lived in was paid in cash by her. Her husband paid most of the bills as that was thier arangement. Basically they kept thier money separate except for this house agreement. The will states 90% of the house is mine and my 2 sisters. 10% goes to him and he gets to live there and we cannot force him out. My Mom has a friend that was kicked out by the kids and she didn't want that to happen to him. Here is where is gets complicated. My Mom was not a stupid lady but certainly was not a math major or a what if kind of person as dad used to handle the finances. The 3 kids had no problem with him staing there but after almost 2 years we feel it's time for him to move. Before you say " your Mom wanted him to stay", hear me out. We know for a fact that she would have thought he would work with us if and when we needed the money. One of my sisters really needs cash and all 3 can use it or this would not be an issue. He would be the first to admit we came before he did as she made that perfectly clear. He is not rich but not poor and can afford to move out plus his kids are all down South and being almost 80, it makes sense to move down there now rather than when he gets sick or dies. We don't want to have the house dumped on our lap one day and have to pay bills so we want him to work with us. I know i could never live in a house knowing my dead wife's kids need the money. If this isn't annoyiong enough, the kids paid for everything when she died, funeral, wake, luncheon etc. How do you let someone else pay for your wife's death ? I have never like him much and like him much less now, to many bad decesions as far as I am concerned. The bottom line is my Mom never thought she would out live him and not alot of thought was given to this will. That plus we know she would expect him to work with us on this issue.
> So my question is this, could you live in a house under these conditions ?
> Would you not feel an obligation to help your spouses kids consdering the house is 90% there or would you say, screw them, I need to worry about me ? We all 3 think he should work with us, my uncle says no but my aunt says yes. I want to keep this light hearted but would anyone out there say, screw them, I am staying as long as a want ?



He has every right to live there until he dies!  It is not his problem that any of you have money issues.  If you want him out make him some kind of offer he can't refuse, otherwise just leave him alone.
Sounds like he is paying all the bills, he could ask you for your share of everything and still live there!  He could also start charging you for what you didn't pay as your part and sue you for it and probably take the entire home if he really wanted to!

Be careful what you ask for, you just may get it!


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## BBB (May 3, 2011)

What do you mean by work with us? Do you want to buy him out, or do you want him to move out and pay rent somewhere, and give you his 10 percent? What is work with us? Can your sister take out a home equity loan out of the home for  share, and then just walk away? If you guys don't want him to live there, you either have to offer to have the home appraised, and give him 10 percent of the value, or everyone agree to sell it and split the proceeds. You can't kick out an 80 year old out of his marital home. If he paid bills while they were married, he is entitled to be treated like an equal partner. 
I know this is hard. My dad died 2 weeks ago. Me and my 3 sisters paid for the entire funeral, and when we finally found the will, he left the house to his cousin in Greece! My mom died and  left us her share 22 years ago, but the law gave it to my Dad, and he took our share anyway, and now gave it away. Such is life. 
He won't live forever. Just wait it out, and when he dies, sell it.


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## Pit (May 4, 2011)

BBB said:


> Can your sister take out a home equity loan out of the home for  share, and then just walk away?



Hmmm... that's an interesting idea. If she takes a HEL and skips the payments, can the creditor force the home to be sold?  

Did the will stipulate that he gets to live there rent-free? It's not unreasonable to expect rent, since you and your siblings hold 90% of the equity.


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## chriskre (May 5, 2011)

My brother went thru a similar scenario.  
He ended up buying a condo and moving him there and letting him live there for free.  It was much cheaper than the house they moved him out of and much easier for him to manage as well.  Eventually he ended up in a nursing home but at least he had 10 more years of independence before the nursing home and my brother was able to rent out the house and get enough money to subsidize the old guy til medicare kicked in in the nursing home.  Once he went into the nursing home they sold the house.

Maybe you could propose something similar.


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## Texasbelle (May 5, 2011)

This is fairly common and how you feel depends on which side of the fence you are on.  A friend who owned part of a house with the right to stay in it, bought out his kids, but they liked each other!  She now owns the house that she and her next husband live in.  I don't think he can stay in it, but again it is common.  Our parents didn't have money, so we didn't worry.  My folks house sold cheap so the proceeds could pay for Mom's nursing home [also a common thing].  My sisters and brothers-in-law did a lot to keep my parents house liveable and got nothing, because my parents didn't sell or deed it to them earlier.  Such is life.


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## Jaybee (May 5, 2011)

Tuggers are so smart and logical. A will is to legalize a person's WILL, and that's why it's called a "will".  It was your mother's will, whether or not she changed her mind at some point. She didn't change her will.
We have a trust, and a stipulation, which I think is usual, that if anyone contests the bequests, that person will receive zilch.

I can only hope that your mother's will stipulates that, upon your stepfather's death, the 10% reverts to the beneficiaries.  Otherwise, this could go on forever!  

Please don't let this situation make you bitter inside. Those feelings can rot you from the inside out.  I wish you, and your siblings peace.


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## Talent312 (May 5, 2011)

Would I stay there knowing that the kids wanted/needed me out?

_It depends._ If I was physically and financially able to move,
 I would, not for them, but for myself, to move on with my life.

But I'm not him. What I or anyone else says, matters not.
Perhaps you can encourage him with some incentives or buy him out.


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## pkyorkbeach (May 6, 2011)

Your mother thought this all out BEFORE she made her WILL...I am sure she thought what if my children need the money.  The home was NOT left to you because of the money. Her first concern was that he have a home to live in.  That is what she wanted.  You need to look at it that you own part of a home but you can not do anything with it until he passes or wants to leave.

Be fair to him it sounds like he was fair to your mom or she would not have done her Will the way she did.


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## LUVourMarriotts (May 6, 2011)

Wow, this is something that could very well come up for my brother and I.  My father passed away when I was 7.  My mother remarried when I was 12.  Our house was nicer, so my step-father moved in and they kept his house and rented it out for a few years.  Then sold it.  The deal has always been that my mother pays off the house and he handles his house.  Well after he sold, he opened a car dealership and unfortunately, that flopped after a few years.

Anyway, if my mother were to pass before my step-father, my brother and I would absolutely, no chance, ask our step-father to move out.  The house will go to my brother and I, not to his 2 daughters at all.  We know this is the way it is willed out.  We get along great with our step-father, which could factor into my feeling, but I also feel it is a little disrespectful to kick him out.  He has been a major part of maintaining that house, and it is his home.

This may be worded wrong, which I don't mean to, there's just not an easy way to say it, but what if your mother did not pass away?  The financial issues you discuss would fall on your own and your sisters shoulders to bear.  Why not just handle it appropriately without possibly decreasing the joy in life that your step-father has left?


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## Beaglemom3 (May 6, 2011)

Fletch,
  Some suggestions:  

1. Contact an elder law/real estate attorney who may be able to find (from experience) a win-win solution for all of you. There may a scenario that we Tuggers haven't thought of. I do Bio-Pharma law and hardly know my own state's laws with regard to family/elder/real estate law. 


2. Ask him if will agree to the sale of the house, that you'd give him the 10% (sweeten to 15+% ?)
of the sale plus you'd help him relocate to the south. The 10% might be his ticket into Assisted Living or as suggested before, a nice condo. Has he been paying the house taxes at your Mum's house ?

  I understand some of what you've been going through and hope you find an answer. You bring out an important point for all of those who have wills - keep things simple, clear and with a time limit.

ETA: Sorry if this was already answered but is the house paid in full ? If so, whose name/names are on the deed ? Was there a document of any kind that conveyed this into his or both names? 

Best,
B


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## nazclk (May 6, 2011)

*Fairness has nothing to do with this situation*

In one simple word it's greed.  Your mother was married to him for 10 years, and she decided what she would do with the house, and that is basically a place for him to stay.  I would assume you have no expenses with the house do you??  Look at it this way, what if she would have left it all to him. What situation would you be in then. You would have to go and find your money elsewhere wouldn't you.   I would suggest that you refinance the house, buy him out at 20%  and be done with it. But unless he is a crazy man I think you are stuck.


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## ace2000 (May 6, 2011)

LUVourMarriotts said:


> This may be worded wrong, which I don't mean to, there's just not an easy way to say it, but what if your mother did not pass away? The financial issues you discuss would fall on your own and your sisters shoulders to bear. Why not just handle it appropriately without possibly decreasing the joy in life that your step-father has left?


 
Actually you've worded it well... and it describes the other side of the choice that the mother chose to make. It's very obvious in this case, what the mother wanted. 

As for those saying they should all make a deal... well, the step-father gets to live rent-free for the rest of his life. How much is that worth? I'd guess it's a lot more than a measly 5%. 

Ever try to work with an ederly person on moving out of a home they've lived in for a long period of time? It is VERY traumatic... and won't be easily accomplished.


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## Beaglemom3 (May 6, 2011)

Over and above rent/mortgage costs: If he's heating/cooling an entire house, paying house taxes, sewer/water/septic, lawn care, plowing, etc. This might be an incentive to sell and downsize if one cost things out. Not sure what his financial status is. Social Security only, with a pension ?

The offset to these things are a consideration when you're on a fixed income. Just trying to view the entire situation.


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## ace2000 (May 6, 2011)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Over and above rent/mortgage costs: If he's heating/cooling an entire house, paying house taxes, sewer/water/septic, lawn care, plowing, etc. This might be an incentive to sell and downsize if one cost things out. Not sure what his financial status is. Social Security only, with a pension ?
> 
> The offset to these things are a consideration when you're on a fixed income. Just trying to view the entire situation.


 
There's no way to know anything for sure unless you know all the variables. I _think_ that is what is so frustrating for Fletch (the OP) about this whole thread. I know he asked for the thread to be locked, and it was for a period of time, and then re-opened. I think the moderators are penalizing him for even thinking about moving an older man out of his home! Only kidding here, who knows what happened?  Can't a person ask for their thread to be locked down?


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## Beaglemom3 (May 6, 2011)

Please, I  would prefer not to be drawn into or have the appearance of being drawn into something. Would prefer to try to offer possible solutions only based on the limited data that I have.
Thank you.


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## ace2000 (May 6, 2011)

Beaglemom3 said:


> Please, I would prefer not to be drawn into or have the appearance of being drawn into something. Would prefer to try to offer possible solutions only based on the limited data that I have.
> Thank you.


 
Understood, it's not just you. Everyone is throwing questions out there to the OP, and it looks like he's removed himself from the conversation several days ago, and was very frustrated at that time. I'm only making that point, not that you're doing anything wrong.


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## Beaglemom3 (May 6, 2011)

ace2000 said:


> Understood, it's not just you. Everyone is throwing questions out there to the OP, and it looks like he's removed himself from the conversation several days ago, and was very frustrated at that time. I'm only making that point, not that you're doing anything wrong.



Understod and thank you.


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## Fern Modena (May 6, 2011)

(I'm only answering now because I have been away for a period of time)

Fletch,
I think your mom made it very clear what her wishes were.  She didn't say "my husband should stay for two years and then move on," or "my husband can stay until the kids need money" or "my husband should move out before he gets sick or dies, or once he is 80 years old."  She was very clear about her wishes, regardless of what you and your sisters need, or think she wanted.

It is very difficult when someone dies these days, with blended families, multiple marriages, etc.  When wills or trusts are not made, it is even worse.  

Jerry died almost a year ago, which I think you know.  We were married 32 years, which is longer than his first marriage.  He left his former house to his first wife and children when he got divorced.  We both worked hard for everything we had.  He left the house and most everything to me.  I wonder if his children feel the same as you do.  

Anyway, it is too bad that your sister needs money, but she's an adult, so somehow you and they will have to work it out among yourselves.  Trying to put your stepfather (or your mother's husband if you prefer) out of the house is not the solution.  IMHO.

Fern


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## John Cummings (May 7, 2011)

I think that Fletch posted this hoping that most people would agree with him. Since it is obvious that people did not agree with him then he has flown the coop.


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## Fern Modena (May 7, 2011)

I think you are right, John.  It is my opinion that Fletch was looking for validation, too, and when he didn't get it he stopped participating.  I'd bet, though, that he can't help but see if/what people are posting, though.

Fern


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## vckempson (May 7, 2011)

Fletch,  I'm so sorry for what you've gone through and the insensitivies being given to you here.  You don't deserve many any of these barbed attacks.  

Money and possessions have a way of bringing out the worst in people sometimes.  This is especially so when dealing with second marriages.  It's a sad thing to see, and doubley sad to live through.  

The only post I saw of any value on all 4 pages was that which lent some context to the old man staying.  If your sibling needs money due to something outside of their control, as in health issues, fraud or disasters, then your in-law is an ass for not helping out.  If the sibling needs money because of not being financially responsible, which includes not having enough savings to weather some rainy days, then I can see the in-law being non responsive.  

Either way, I'm enormously saddened to see how people have acted toward you here.  You've done nothing wrong, period.


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## Patri (May 7, 2011)

vckempson said:


> If your sibling needs money due to something outside of their control, as in health issues, fraud or disasters, then your in-law is an ass for not helping out.



Why would the in-law have any more obligation than the siblings to step up and help? There is no indication they are doing anything.


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## vckempson (May 7, 2011)

I didn't suggest he had any more obligation than the others.  I don't even disagree that the man has a right to stay there as long as wants.  He's entitled to stay there till he dies without any need to feel guilty.  

But when it comes to people that have tragedies of one sort or another, (if that's the case of the siblings) I dont' wait for the other guy to pitch in and help.  My obligation is my own to help those that are in need, irrespective of what any one else does.  

As I said, I just couldn't believe how insensitive everyone is here to Fletch.  I didn't say you should agree with him.  One can disagree and still be sensitive and compassionate, even supportive,  to another's tough situations.  It was beginning to be a "pile on Fletch" party and it just wasn't necessary or appropriate.

Enough is enough.  If the moderators won't lock down the thread, then be courteous enough to just let it wither on the vine.


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## Elan (May 7, 2011)

vckempson said:


> As I said, I just couldn't believe how insensitive everyone is here to Fletch.  I didn't say you should agree with him.  One can disagree and still be sensitive and compassionate, even supportive,  to another's tough situations.  It was beginning to be a "pile on Fletch" party and it just wasn't necessary or appropriate.
> 
> Enough is enough.  If the moderators won't lock down the thread, then be courteous enough to just let it wither on the vine.



  Agree completely.  I think the OP was/is fully receptive to disagreement.  But some of the comments on this thread are way out of line, IMO.  

  Sometimes I think a few TUGgers have waaaayyyy too much free time on their hands.


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## jlf58 (May 7, 2011)

Thank you both and thats is 100% how I feel. To say I don't respond because I don't like what I am reading is dead wrong and stupid. I have thick skin and like the opinions. The rest of the BS is just not called for which is why I bailed. 



Elan said:


> Agree completely.  I think the OP was/is fully receptive to disagreement.  But some of the comments on this thread are way out of line, IMO.
> 
> Sometimes I think a few TUGgers have waaaayyyy too much free time on their hands.


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## ace2000 (May 7, 2011)

vckempson said:


> Enough is enough. If the moderators won't lock down the thread...


 
The moderators locked the thread for about a day and then for some reason opened it up again. Very strange process, and this all occurred after Fletch made his request to lock it (publicly and privately according to his previous post).  Good luck Fletch!


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## laura1957 (May 7, 2011)

I'm going to try to answer Fletch's original question - which was not about the LEGALITY of staying in the house    I think there is probably much more to the story, and more hard feelings about more things than Fletch is telling.  Not sure whether this home was the family home or not - doesnt sound like it, but I dont know if my opinion would change too much anyway.  

I have been happily married for 7 1/2 years, 2nd marriage for both of us.  Grown children on both sides, I moved into his house where he raised his children.  House was fully paid for before our marriage.  We both get along with the others kids fairly well, and play grandparents to all combined grandchildren.  In my mind - "our" house is his house.  If anything happens to him I would not think twice about moving out.  His son or daughter would probably take on the house with my blessings.  Whenever this has come up and I have stated this he insists his kids would not expect me to move out - and I am sure he is right.  But it is their house, they grew up here - I feel they have more of a right to it than I do.  I think I would feel even more strongly about this if I didnt get along with his kids.


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## MuranoJo (May 8, 2011)

Laura, what would you do with this scenario:

It's 20 years down the road and you have minimal options financially (can't afford to go anywhere else).
You are physically and mentally able to live on your own.
You have a legal right to stay there via a will.


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## Rose Pink (May 8, 2011)

Fletch, does your mother's husband have dementia?  It is really hard to tell.  Most people can't tell in the earlier stages.  The person is still alert and oriented.  They still know who everyone is and what is going on in the world.  They can still hold an intelligent conversation, balance a checkbook, pay their bills on time, drive, and have a decent social life.  However, if this man has gotten progressively more cantankerous over the years, you may want to question whether he is in the milder stages of some type of brain degeneration.  If so, he may not be able to see all sides of a discussion.  He may be physically unable to see your point of view. 

The brain is a physical organ just like the heart or kidneys.  It gets sick. Depending on the part of the brain affected, his emotional state (ability to have compassion, for example) can be impaired.  Or, his logical ability can be impaired (being unable to understand that a different living arrangement would benefit him more than staying in this home, for example).

If it is dementia, it is most likely going to get worse.  If he isolates himself more and more, I would definitely consider dementia.  If this is the case, trying to reason with his logic or sense of compassion will only result in .  You will get more cooperation with patience and gentle coaxing.  And then, you still may get no cooperation.  

If there is one of your siblings (or yourself) that has a better, civil relationship with him, please stay in contact with him.  You may be his only way to get medical help.  This is in your interest as well since if he gets too far gone, so will the house (your property).  To protect the property, you will need to protect him--for all the legal reasons that others have stated.


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## RDB (May 8, 2011)

They were wed over 50 years.  Dad earned. Mom raised 6 kids and held other jobs occasionally. Together they accumulated speculative land assets and owned their home in Michigan. 

They purchased a place in Florida and as Snow Birds, traveled back and forth for years.  

Mother died.  Dad sold off every parcel but their home in Florida. He purchased a motor home to travel about with a new wife. Dad sold off the last place and purchased a sizable place (in Florida). 

It was obvious to my siblings and Dad’s brothers and sisters that this new woman was a money grabber.  Anytime I spoke about any of what was going on, Dad would say his wishes were in his will.

Dad died fairly quickly with bad bad cancer.  The house and vehicles and whatever was Dad’s went to his wife.  Did anyone think it was fair?  Doesn’t matter.

The woman expected the tabs for hospital/doctor bills, funeral and travel expenses, and vehicles payments would be picked up by Dad’s children.  She found out, that wasn’t happening.  She wanted us to come get Dad’s weapons, tools that she didn’t want, Mom’s massive salt and pepper shaker collection, etc, etc.  That didn’t materialize either.  We felt the lot, not worth the trip cost.

Two years later the woman died. Her son inherited what was left of everything Mother and Dad ever worked for.  Their offspring have the memories.

Were we bitter…  Not exactly.  What he had was his to do with, as he wished.  
Is it right that we get screwed over like that?  Apparently Dad thought so.


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## bobcat (May 9, 2011)

RDB said:


> They were wed over 50 years.  Dad earned. Mom raised 6 kids and held other jobs occasionally. Together they accumulated speculative land assets and owned their home in Michigan.
> 
> They purchased a place in Florida and as Snow Birds, traveled back and forth for years.
> 
> ...



That is a hard thing to  happen. At times the childern do not know what is going on or Mom and Dad do not tell them.


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## laura1957 (May 9, 2011)

muranojo said:


> Laura, what would you do with this scenario:
> 
> It's 20 years down the road and you have minimal options financially (can't afford to go anywhere else).
> You are physically and mentally able to live on your own.
> You have a legal right to stay there via a will.



Cant really say since I am not in that position, but I dont think my FEELINGS would change - whether they were right or wrong   I may not be able to move - but I would still feel that I should.  After 20 years living in the house I may not feel the same  and I understand the legal position, I am not arguing that at all.  And with the original posters stepfather his age is also a factor.  I also believe there is much more to the story that causes all the hard feelings.


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## m61376 (May 10, 2011)

Fletch-
My condolences on your loss. Grieving is hard enough without all this added angst.

Working with the elderly as a physical therapist, I can tell you that leaving familiar surroundings is extremely traumatic for an 80 year old, and I'm guessing it has likely never crossed his mind as to how you or your sisters feel. He knows it as his home. Don't forget, he also lost a wife, and spousal loss at this age not only brings grief but reminds one of their own mortality, so he is likely dealing with more than you realize. I know when my Dad passed away we had Mom come live with us, and it was very hard for her to give up their home, even though she was moving in with family and only a quarter of a mile away.

Your best option might be to approach him sympathetically, discuss how he might find living closer to his children and perhaps grandchildren in the waning years of his life might be better both physically and emotionally for him. Offer to help get him moved (the thought of packing can be daunting and overwhelming alone) and relocated, and perhaps approach the more sensitive financial issue in the vein of offering to help him financially if that was an issue and see where he takes it from there. Before you embark on that conversation, though, make sure you have a real idea of what the house is worth in this market. I know my aunt and uncle just sold their rather large home in Pittsburgh, and I was absolutely shocked at how little it was worth, despite their living in a good area there. I know real estate varies greatly in different locales, but their 4BR, 3 bath house sold for perhaps a fifth of what the little 1BR/converted studio apt. I bought for my daughter in NYC will likely sell for. So if you are considering offering a financial incentive to him, be sure to be well versed in what the real value of the house is today.

Good luck; families can be difficult, and adding money into the mix tends to bring out the worst in people.


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## mbeach89 (May 10, 2011)

*Just a thought*

To the OP:

I'm not sure if this has been covered already, (and I am not a lawyer), but would it be possible for you or your other sibling to simply "buy out" your sister's share of the house, so that she can take care of her finances?


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## am1 (May 10, 2011)

Yes that would be possible.  Just have to be able to come up with those funds.  
Decide how much the house will be worth when it is sold and when that will be sold.  

Maybe an advance on what her share goes for with a fair interest rate.  

This is still a much easier solution then trying to kick someone out.  



mbeach89 said:


> To the OP:
> 
> I'm not sure if this has been covered already, (and I am not a lawyer), but would it be possible for you or your other sibling to simply "buy out" your sister's share of the house, so that she can take care of her finances?


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## laurac260 (May 10, 2011)

You know, I have been following along on this thread for some time, and haven't really commented, #1 because I don't know the legality of any of it, and #2, never been there myself, my parents are still alive and my kids are little.  

But...I am a parent, and I do have kids who need to understand how to fend for themselves, albeit at a limited capacity (they are 10 and 4).  For the past year I have used the following advice for my daughter when she asks me to do something for her that she is perfectly capable of doing herself.  I ask her, "What would you do if I wasn't here?"  her response is, "Well, I'd just do it myself."  

The relevancy to your story is this.  What would your sister do if your mother had lived another 10-20 years?  What would she do if the house had been a rental?  What would she do if the house had been HIS?     And that, ultimately is the answer to her problem.  What will she do if he refuses to move?  What will she do if he lives to be 100?   What would she do if the place burned down tomorrow and he has not carried homeowners insurance?  What would she do if there had been nothing to inherit?  Well, the answer to all of this is, "She'd just have to figure out a way to do it herself."


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