# Vidanta Resales



## jssquared (Oct 12, 2018)

I have given this lots of thought over time and wanted to see what others are thinking, particularly about resales . The main issue with the rentals is how inventory is allocated between owners booking weeks for their own use vs Vidanta booking weeks for rent (either for their own benefit or for an owners' benefit).
A few points about resales:
1. Vidanta has been talking about this for some time.  I think the veracity of the comments out of Vidanta range from pure sales talk to something more tangible.  I have been told by a sales rep that Vidanta has had some discussion with Disney and Universal to discuss how those companies managed their resale markets.  I believe Disney offers to buy back contracts at least for cost or maybe prevailing market cost or something like that.  No way for me to confirm this.  Further, I have been told there would be real estate offices (for sales and resales) in the theme park, on the cruise ship, etc.  The park makes 1000% sense as they will have millions of non Vidanta owners (read hot prospects) coming through the parks annually.
2. The population of owners at Vidanta is aging.  There will be a group of owners whose contracts will be made available.  Either, be sent back to Vidanta for failure (or lack of desire) to pay a renewal fee, through death without a beneficial owner, or simply a desire to sell a make a little bit of money back. 
3. The current secondary market for contracts, especially the more expensive ones is very poor.  There are some sites out there that offer to market listings (as does Aimfair) but Vidanta does not maintain any control of the marketplace.  Some of the lower level contracts are on the market for next to no money.  This cannot benefit the company if they are trying to sell inventory for a certain price where some buyers can find the same (or better in some cases) contracts for a fraction of the cost on the secondary market.  If Vidanta can control the secondary market they can drive cost and maintain consistency for the sales operation.
4. There is somewhat limited overall inventory for Vidanta to sell.  Allegedly, many of the properties are sold out: Punta, 4 bed, some of the large loft units, etc.  Vidanta needs to sell something.  This is a much larger point, but how does Vidanta create inventory for their sales staff: 1) open new buildings or resorts - they are doing both in East Cape, Estates, cruise ship etc., 2) resell inventory that has been assigned back to Vidanta (see #2 above); 3) resell inventory when owners upgrade - is Vidanta allowed to resell a contract when an owner upgrades?  Meaning if I had a 4 bedroom residence contract and upgrade to the Estates. can Vidanta now sell my "old" 4 bedroom residence contract?  That must do lots of damage to the inventory of available rooms as I can still trade down to the residence and the new owner can use their contract, effectively doubling the number of owners using the same rooms/buildings? 4) resell inventory after the 10 year registered weeks are expired.  Vidanta is limited in the number of contracts they can sell in specific buildings most likely be registered weeks - those that are part of a registered collective deed. However, these weeks expire after 10 years (contract is carried on by vacation fair, residence, Grand Luxxe, Estate weks etc.).  Can Vidanta resell this contract with a new contractual registered week as they are not adding another registered week to  the deed?
5) Now that the sales operation is more unified is Vidanta going to allow their reps sell inventory from all locations out of one sales office?  Meaning, can the NV sales staff sell inventory from East Cape or are they limited to NV contracts?  This will also impact sales staff inventory to sell.
6) It would be logical that Vidanta would not offer resales until their existing inventory is sold out.  Otherwise, they would be competing against themselves.  But, if as an example, the four bedroom residence is sold out and Vidanta can no longer make money off this building by selling a new contract, perhaps they would want to serve as real estate agent and take a commission to resell an owners' contract.  A 5% commission is better than no money at all.  Works in everyones' interest.
I am sure there is more to discuss, but would be very interested in peoples' thoughts.


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## TravelTime (Oct 12, 2018)

Disney does not need to buy back contracts because there is an active secondary resale market for the same or more than what you originally bought your Disney contract for (most of the time Disney contracts actually appreciate). You can also rent out your Disney points for a decent amount so most people do not sell unless they are sure they want out. There is no comparison of most timeshares to Disney. The more Disney grows, the more demand for its DVC product increases. The next most successful timeshare product is Marriott. But they do not have good resale value.


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## mike53 (Oct 12, 2018)

I am by no means and expert in the workings of Vidanta but having recently purchased a unit from them (a rookie) I have a bit of knowledge, or at least my understanding, of how they are operating now. Nothing more. It is a very interesting post and I imagine it will create a lot of discussion and I will learn a lot more than I think I know now.

1.There is one of their many addenda to our contract that states Vidanta does not handle any rentals or resales for their owners. Knowing absolutely nothing about Disney I know only of kiosks in the parks pushing their resorts and I only assume this is for their direct vacation club programs. I really never thought they would handle resales for owners and can’t imagine why. I imagine they would be more likely to offer some sort of buy-back and resell in the parks at their full developer prices.

As for the Vidanta theme parks I understand there is a large market Mexican nationals or others living in Mexico for various Vidanta properties. If the parks are open to the public I am sure they will have similar kiosks for sales. At this time, though, I can’t imagine these parks themselves becoming a vacation destination  for those living outside of Mexico as is Disneyland/World. 

2 Ageing owners? Probably so but there were many, many younger folks walking out of the sales office with “packets”. Likely these were purchases at the lower levels or their “starter” programs but sales activity is booming and lots of potential upgrades. 

3. I’ve searched many times on Tug, Redweek, EBay and Amfair and rarely encounter any resales being offered, especially at a low, pennies on the dollar price. I can always find weeks/points at HGVC, Marriott and other chains at bargain prices and, of course, the many other non-branded resorts at almost zero or even money back if you take them off their hands (through the resellers) but not Vidanta. From what I’ve read here, the availability to resell is limited to the types of contracts and transfer fees. You would be lucky to find a heavily discounted final price. I think Vidanta does control the secondary market for the most part by the lack of resales available.

4. According to the “sales talk”, availability of the upper level units is limited at least at RM. They do cross sell the GL and GB contracts in Nuevo Vallarta. Our purchase we made earlier in the year was for a NV unit even though we were at RM. As they continue to expand at NV and Cabo and Puerto Penasco, I’m sure they won’t run out of inventory soon. I’ve read here that they are upgrading the older lower RM level units and now calling them Jungle Luxxe or GL Deluxxe to get these higher-level sales. Our contract if for a Luxxe Deluxxe unit in RM.

When you are upgrading you actually cancel your existing contract thus freeing up the weeks for Vidanta to sell them again. The newer contracts limit the number of Registered Weeks for the 10 years thus they are not tying up many of the weeks sold. We purchased an EOY contract thus we have 5 Registered weeks in the ten years. The contracts do include non-guaranteed sister weeks usage and the 100 year renewals as Residence Weeks. In total, through Vidanta directly, we in theory have up to 4 weeks usage per year. With these, plus the weeks available through SFX I could see where this could potentially be an overbooking nightmare but I’m sure they count on people not using all of these weeks. A great sales tool though.

I’m really pleased that you started this post as I know that I will be getting a lot of great information and better able to understand my contract.


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## jssquared (Oct 12, 2018)

Mike. Thank you so much. I too am interested to hear others perspectives. I am aware as well of the release regarding resales. What I am sure about is Vidanta will do what is in the best interest of Vidanta. Just trying to figure out what that is the hard part. 
 I would suggest that Vidanta will grow very well over the coming years and decades. With the Cirque du Soleil, Hakkassan, cruise ships, and other partnerships they should be well-positioned to be a preeminent resort in Mexico and perhaps in the future beyond.
They are anticipating at least 1 million annual visitors to the theme park even with just phase 1 operational. That will be a lot of people coming through to sell something to. And be sure, Vidanta will most assuredly have something to see.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Oct 13, 2018)

I will quote / paraphrase TUG member Ron Parise .

The value of (any) timeshare contract is based on what it would cost to rent - that unit or a similar accommodation ( same week & area ) compared to the cost  of ownership ( ie) the MF or use fee ( plus acquisition cost amortized to a yearly amount ) .

In some cases the cost of disposal also has to be factored .
Shell Vacation Points would be a good example .
(good resorts / above avg. MF = points can be had for free , with seller paying
any transfer etc. cost . If / when you want out - you pay the transfer etc. cost )

Since Vidanta wants registered weeks back - and most recently written contracts have “no go / no pay - MF on use only “ - there is likely little or no cost to ending
a Vidanta contract .( other than the loss of the money spent to initially purchase ) .

Ron has bought & used / rented millions of Wyndham points .
He also had some highly valued fixed weeks - (ie) Mardi Gras in New Orleans .

I think his analysis is valid .

*******

1) Vidanta is a float week system .  / the weeks with rental value are all (currently) between Christmas Week and Easter / mid April . ( ie Snowbird Season & Mexican Holiday Weeks ) - “ Peak Season “

2) Vidanta’ s build and staff costs are in pesos / while the income ( MF - use fee ) is in USD
this has meant that building to capture more income during “ Peak Season “ has been a successful business strategy . It does result in “ excess capacity “ at other times .

3) All the bonus weeks in contracts AND relationships with almost every exchange system - are designed to fill May - mid Dec . AND bring in new sales prospects.
These bonus weeks in a contract - add no “ contract resale value “ - although they do have vacation use value .

4 ) “ Registered Weeks “ - are a “magic ingredient “   - that needs to be included in all Vidanta contracts
and the existing number is tangentially connected to the number of units built  x 52 weeks in the year .
The reporting requirements are unknown & to whom . ( perhaps Profeco or some other Mexican government Agency / Dept ) .

5) Vidanta contracts require a periodic renewal fee to keep them active .

********

I will  now try and figure a resale value for a 2001 Mayan Palace contract.
with an estimated MF of $ 700 . This will be based on February usage at
MP - PV Marina .( ie - “Peak Season” )

{ I am not sure of exact MF for a 2001/ 3 % cap contract
I believe $ 700 - $750 may get a 2 bedroom .
My 2006 - one bedroom is about $ 740 / 5 % cap with “ no go / no pay “}


Likely contract details:
25 year renewal at 5 x MF ( 2026 / 7 years ) registered week renews as a registered week.
5 year reno ( 2nd MF )  ( 4th one due in 2 years )
transfer cost - 1 MF
lower MF ( 3% cap)
bonus week - Vacation Fare transfers to new owner
ARP - 6 months / can book Feb. “Peak Weeks” -  on Aug. 1 preceding year .


Cost to buyer to put contract in their name and keep active for 7 use years
$ 1400 = $ 200 per use year . ( transfer fee + reno fee due in 2 years )

RCI - 6634 - Mayan Palace - PV Marina ( approx 200 units / Feb books quickly )
current all in cost - Feb 2020 - 2 bedroom - $ 1100 (approx ) using RCI to exchange .
2020 “ rental cost “( ie ) - 18 TPU’s x $ 25 ( my approx TPU cost ) + $ 420 resort  fee / 2 bedroom + RCI exchange fee - $ 239 = $1100

difference between cost of putting contract in new owners name and exchanging ( ie - renting )
$ 200 per year .

Max Resale Value of contract = $ 1400 ** (above the transfer & reno fee ) 
 $ 200 savings x 7 years of use until renewal date requires additional payment

Note - I am not saying that a contract should or would sell for this figure .
I am simply saying - if a buyer paid more than this amount - they can likely
exchange ( ie - rent ) for less - when all costs are considered .

** - my math is based on current RCI exchange costs and the PV - Marina location .
These can change and likely will over 7 years
6631 MP -NV has a current resort fee of $ 630 / 2 bedroom for Feb 2020 - so a slightly higher rental cost ;MP -  RM is currently the same resort fee as PV .

“ Renting “ ( exchanging ) Mayan Palace through RCI  has traditionally allowed:
1) a longer booking window than the 6 month ARP  in most Mayan Palace brand contracts .
 2) Vidanta  - Mayan has also limited this window via various RCI restrictions such as 1 in 4 rules .Prior to the introduction of Vidanta resort fees in 2016 - the limitation
was 1 high season RCI exchange into Vidanta brands / all locations .

3) Contracts after 2002 have higher transfer costs ( to non immediate family )
4) Many / most contracts after 2005 have some version of “no go / no pay - MF on use
only . ( mine was after the first 5 years ) The combination of these 2 addendum
has reduced the resale market of Vidanta - Mayan contracts .
Either you can’t sell it or you do not need to sell as there is no yearly cost .

IMO- ANY CHANGES VIDANTA IS CONSIDERING FOR TRANSFER COSTS - IS PRIMARILY DESIGNED TO REMOVE AN OBJECTION OF BUYERS   - SO VIDA CAN SELL MORE .

 Vidanta- Mayan introduced “ no go / no pay - MF on use only” in late 2005
That was the hook that convinced me to buy - and I am very glad I have it .
That said - I still “lose “ about $500 of sunk money - if I do not use .

Buying a timeshare is like  buying a car - the minute you drive off the lot ,
it goes down in value . ( Disney excluded )
If there was NO resale market for a 100 K Mercedes Benz - the dealers would have a harder time convincing folks to buy one . Same idea .
The fact that you may only get 20k - after 6 years of use -80% depreciation
is not what the dealer focuses on .


Timeshare Value is primarily in use.
This includes family bonding and memories ;
as well as escaping winter if you live in
a climate with real winter


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## jssquared (Oct 13, 2018)

T dot -   Thank you so much. That is Aaron incredibly interesting perspective.

I do think there may be differences between the various levels of Vidanta ownership. As you go higher up the pyramid, the residence level contracts have at least two more zeros attached to them. There will probably need to be a comparison to replacement value. Likely, there will always be a group of people who want to own contract as opposed to renting, for a variety of reasons. If that is the case, the option would include buying directly from the developer if there is still inventory or buying resale. There would need to be a relationship between the pricing through both mechanisms. If we presume a limit of supply of new contracts, then there will probably be an active secondary market. I don’t think that can happen until the developer, or certain buildings, is sold out.


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## Eric B (Oct 13, 2018)

It would be nice to see a decent resale market for Vidanta, but I would be surprised to see it in the form of a real estate office.  The major problem with that is that the contracts aren't really real estate; while the sales folks like to speak of it (now) as being fractional ownership, all of the contracts are really written as rights to use, so there isn't any title to sell.  In my view, the better way to look at it is akin to a country club membership with a high initial fee and a variety of different levels of membership that allow you the use of different parts of the facilities.  There are perturbations from that model due to the association with various timeshare exchanges and the introduction of the Cirque park and the cruise ships, as well as the ability to bequeath the membership, though I'm not sure whether that's a feature of country clubs in general.  Vidanta has set up numerous obstacles to sales of the contracts, and I have to conclude that the registered weeks have a great deal of significance to how many they can sell.  This leads me to conclude that the country club model is the best way to look at the higher levels (GB, GL and Estates), though Ron's valuation does have some merit for the lower levels where there are a lot more units available (Hundreds at the MP level as compared to maybe dozens at the GL spa level).

In my opinion, once the initial 10 years on the current form of the contracts runs out and you no longer own a registered week, you don't really have much to sell.  You continue to have access to the facilities through whatever form of residence weeks they gave you along with the initial contract, but those contracts are not transferable in general and have a shorter reservation window, which makes them a good way to get business for the hotel side of the house while not impacting the reservations for the registered weeks.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Oct 13, 2018)

Eric B said:


> It would be nice to ...... while the sales folks like to speak of it (now) as being fractional ownership, all of the contracts are really written as rights to use, so there isn't any title to sell.  In my view, the better way to look at it is akin to a country club membership with a high initial fee and a variety of different levels of membership that allow you the use of different parts of the facilities.
> 
> In my opinion, once the initial 10 years on the current form of the contracts runs out and you no longer own a registered week, .....  You continue to have access to the facilities through whatever form of residence weeks they gave you along with the initial contract, but those contracts are not transferable in general and have a shorter reservation window, which makes them a good way to get business for the hotel side of the house while not impacting the reservations for the registered weeks.



Eric - I think your analogy to the country club membership / with high initial fee is excellent 
and merits more thought .


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## Eric B (Oct 13, 2018)

mike53 said:


> I am by no means and expert in the workings of Vidanta but having recently purchased a unit from them (a rookie) I have a bit of knowledge, or at least my understanding, of how they are operating now. Nothing more. It is a very interesting post and I imagine it will create a lot of discussion and I will learn a lot more than I think I know now.
> 
> 1.There is one of their many addenda to our contract that states Vidanta does not handle any rentals or resales for their owners....



Mike,

That addendum is essentially a disclaimer that you aren't relying on any representations by the sales folks about how much you can make through renting out your weeks or reselling them as a motivation for buying the contract in the first place.  It really doesn't do much other than that.

There is another addendum that typically gets added to your contract when you upgrade to a higher level; it winds up being listed with the title "Upgrade Certificate."  What that one actually says is that you have upgraded the initial contract to a new one and the old one is therefore cancelled.  Beware the next time you go to an "owners' update," you'll typically be told that you miraculously have a certificate in your contract that allows you to upgrade to the next higher level, an opportunity that not many have, but has somehow been assigned to you as a part of your exclusive relationship with Vidanta.  What they're selling with the upgrades is a higher, more exclusive level of membership and this is one of the ways they communicate that to you; doesn't matter too much that it's a white lie, but don't let it color your decision on whether you desire to upgrade and judge the merits on their own pros and cons.  I've seen some discussion about the benefits of some contracts with "upgrade certificates" but it really pays to read what the addenda actually say.


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## mike53 (Oct 13, 2018)

Yup. You gotta watch out for those little white lies. I think that's why we spent sooo much time in the contracts office getting clarification on what all those addenda really meant. It's really amazing how these "owners updates" are. I returned last week from St. Martin and after a really nice breakfast I was pretty sure they were trying to sell me what I already "own" for only $6,500. When I'm back in RM in February I have to go to the update. I take it as a challenge!


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## Eric B (Oct 13, 2018)

Well, spending a lot of time is better than spending a lot of money, unless it's for something you fully understand and can afford.

By the way, you don't really have to go to the update.  On my last trip to NV, they actually declined to let us go to the update because we had been recently, but have us the 10% discount on room charges.  Oddly enough, that discount is one of the benefits for exchanges in RCI for the current resort fee; no idea what they'll offer them.


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## pittle (Oct 13, 2018)

Eric - great analogy with the country club membership!  I never thought of it that way, but is a perfect description!  We did the country club thing years ago - worked well at the time and then when it did not serve us well - we let it go.  That will happen with Mayan World for us someday too.


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## jssquared (Oct 13, 2018)

Another factor is that. particularly at higher levels of ownership, there is the possibility to generate income via renting out excess weeks.  This requires lots of work, and in some cases actual monetary investment in various marketplaces, but does provide annual profit to offset some of the "investment" cost.  Also, I am not sure why everyone discounts the value of the non-registered weeks.  In some cases they do not have ALL of the benefits or early reservation periods as compared to registered weeks, but they are still weeks at the resort for decades upon decades. I only view the non=transferability as an issue if Vidanta chooses to make it so.  Meaning, if at any time they wanted to create a real estate exchange model (people are right that these contracts are NOT real estate) they would simply allow for the transfer of non registered weeks to third parties.  At one point, a sales rep told me that they can actually use these addendum as sweeteners in resales.  Meaning, they would allow for the transfer of the registered week (many of the addendum do NOT transfer along with it) at a certain price passing on the profit to the owner, and then try to sell the new buyer back all the addendum, residence weeks, etc.  Also, Vidanta can mark to market the contracts.  Vidanta always lists a price on the contract i.e. $100,000 (simply by example) and I imagine that most of us have paid a fraction (who knows - maybe one quarter) of this amount.  So, Vidanta, if they grow demand and increase contract value over time, can allow for a $25,000 buy back of the contract (making the initial owner whole), then resell that contract to a new buyer at $100,000 + adding the cost of all of the addendum. This to me makes a ton of sense ONCE all of the inventory is sold out.  They will not sell against themselves. but my assertion only woks if there is some point in time in the future when they have nothing left to sell.


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## Eric B (Oct 13, 2018)

Believe me, I value the non-registered weeks.  I only mention the difference, which is mostly the reservation window, because it could become significant at some point of Vidanta stops expanding.  It could then result in an inability to book in the high season, which would be a downside for many.  Doesn't seem to be a problem now, although on a couple of occasions i haven't been able to get the specific unit type I requested.  

As far as working to develop a resale market goes, I don't think they are there yet.  They've got the Estates to sell now, plus however they packages cruise ships, and the Cirque park(s) to boost usage the rest of the year.  Plus, if inventory is limited by the registered weeks, their inventory renews every 10 years.  Things could change, but I don't see what's in it for them right now.


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## mikenk (Oct 14, 2018)

Interesting thread. Eric's country club analogy is spot-on. Some people join country clubs for the prestige of that club, but most often because of the convenience of playing a course they like when they want, usually at a long term savings if they can afford the Initiation fee, and with the benefit of sharing with family and friends. Having been on the BOD at a country club, the club will adjust transfer fees and number of members to adjust to economic and competitive pressures in order to survive - many of which are not. The club must also be continually improving the facilities to stay viable. It is a tough business.

Membership at Vidanta follows the same logic. Members are essentially buying convenience, some sense of exclusivity, and luxury units and amenities cheaper than they can get on the open market. Vidanta must continue to improve to compete, offers deals to sweeten the pot, and controls their value through transfer fees and contract wording. 

Another interesting perspective using the Country Club perspective is exclusivity. For a country club, it is imperative that the club maintains some exclusivity for the members to appreciate the value. If the CC starts allowing non members to play for the purpose of maximizing play, members will quickly lose interest in the club. Vidanta, by routinely dumping inventory to maximize occupancy, reduces exclusivity that peeves many owners (including me). So far, they have gotten away with it - but Vidanta leadership might be well served to be wary of the long term consequences.

Mike


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## PamMo (Oct 17, 2018)

We got a bottle of champagne and a box of Vidanta logo goodies delivered to our room this morning. It's my husband's birthday, so it didn't seem odd at all. We celebrated his birthday in GL NV one year, and they sent up a bottle of champagne and a tray of fruits and cheeses. Boy, were WE surprised to open a packet that contained a credit card charge for USD$34K! Another sheet was a sales/purchase agreement for The Estates for USD$342K! We very quickly realized they sent all of this stuff to the wrong room. We've never attended a Vidanta sales presentation, but these guys must be great at their jobs! What on earth do you get from Vidanta for $342K?


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## Eric B (Oct 17, 2018)

PamMo said:


> ... What on earth do you get from Vidanta for $342K?



... a bunch of logo goodies and a bottle of bubbly, maybe?


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## rpennisi (Oct 17, 2018)

Yikes, the price of Vidanta has gone up again!!


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## jssquared (Oct 17, 2018)

Estates.  The four bedroom penthouse estates is listed for sale at $2.4 million dollars for a 1+2 contract.  The actual selling price is probably a far cry from that amount, but that is list.


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## PigsDad (Oct 17, 2018)

PamMo said:


> What on earth do you get from Vidanta for $342K?


Congrats to those sales people for winning the BS Artist of the Year award!




Kurt


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## TravelTime (Oct 17, 2018)

So are they discounting the Estates from $2.4 million list price down to $342K? What is the usage fee on a 4 BR in the Estates?

Is The Estates comparable to Montecristo Estates at Pueblo Bonito? Does anyone know the membership fee and usage fee on a 4 BR at Montecristo Estates?


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## jssquared (Oct 17, 2018)

There are four different Estates layouts - 1 bedroom, 2 bedroom, 3 bedroom (combination of the 1+2) and 4 bedroom. The four bedroom will be a penthouse with about 10,000 square feet and a private lap pool.  The Estates are just being built now for earliest occupancy in December 2019 in Riviera Maya, Nuevo Vallarta and East Cape.  They will certainly have the highest level of finish and will certainly be a good step above the Grand Luxxe 4 bedroom residence.  Apparently, the service level will be significantly higher as well, but has not yet been defined.  Current usage fee for four bedroom is 3,900 but that will almost certainly go up, and probably already has for the contracts being sold presently.  From looking online at Montecristo, the Estates at Vidanta look to be of significantly higher level.  Take a look at the residences at Four Seasons Punta Mita.  That is probably more in line, although the 4 seasons are MUCH smaller that Vidanta, but a very apt comparison with an exclusive home layout within a full service luxury resort.  I cannot comment on what Vidanta is actually selling these things for.  That info is impossible to pry from anyone associated with the company.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Oct 17, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> So are they discounting the Estates from $2.4 million list price down to $342K? What is the usage fee on a 4 BR in the Estates?
> 
> Is The Estates comparable to Montecristo Estates at Pueblo Bonito? Does anyone know the membership fee and usage fee on a 4 BR at Montecristo Estates?



I have seen some in TUG Marketplace - My memory is MF was in the 3-4 K+range /  like larger Grand Luxxe the square footage was larger than the house we live in -
Not our thing but I can understand the reasons why some may want to own . I am sure a Montecristo PB developer buy in is well north of 100 K


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## jssquared (Oct 17, 2018)

T Dot - your post leads me to ask a question, which probably deserves its own thread or has already been wrrtten about quite a bit. Specifically, how does price of ownership compare from resort to resort and system to system. I know there are a million variables that include type of unit, maintenance fees, amenities, renewal fees, flexibility of use weeks, booking windows, possible resales, flxiebility to use weeks at multiple resorts and on and on and onl.
BUT - how does the price to purchase a contract at Vidanta compare to Hyatt or Marriot or Disney or others?  If you are looking at the highest end Grand Luxxe rooms, I am not sure you can even find many comparable anywhere.  I have relatives that have a Westin in St Johns or Ritz in Aspen. I have seen three bed Hyatt in Maui. I have read about some of the larger Disney resorts.  I don’t think any would compare to the four bedroom residence in terms of unit size.
So, let’s compare something like a 3 bedroom spa tower unit, which is probably a rough equivalent to some of the highest end other resort options. With Vidanta we can use a base 1+2 contract which essentially means three weeks for ten years and then two weeks in perpetuity. I would guess you can get a three bed spa for 100k or so from Vidanta. That is most likely less than other options.
Has anyone done this type of analysis and can you point me in the right direction. It is my assertion that Vidanta is actually a very good value as compared to other options.
Even to the poster above who scoffed at almost 400,000. I would not be so quick to rush to judgment. The four bedroom estates will become one of the premier, if not THE premier resort/timeshare destination in the world connected to a full service resort. 2.4 million is a different story, but if Vidanta can get anything approaching that number good for them.


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## TravelTime (Oct 17, 2018)

TUG might be the wrong place to ask this question because they do not promote paying developer prices. Once you take the Vidanta developer buy-in cost and divide by 10 (since the contracts are really 10 year contracts and have no resale value), the annual cost is very high. Plus the locations are limited to NV and RM.

I own upscale timeshares in prime locations and I also stay at Grand Luxxe from time to time (which is why I am following this thread). I like Grand Luxxe in Nuevo Vallarta a lot. I have not yet been to RM. NV is beautifully landscaped, the units are large and the finishes are pretty good (although not quite as good as I expected actually in that they do not use as many natural materials as I would expect).

All in, I have spent in the range of what it would cost to own a 3 bedroom Grand Luxxe Spa unit or perhaps a 3 bedroom loft unit, I would guess. When I sell, I would be able to entirely recoup my Disney upfront costs as well as part of all my other upfront costs (MVC/Vistana, FSA). This is because I have purchased resale. Also the places I own have rental possibilities when I cannot use them esp Disney. The other thing I like about owning such diversity is I can internally exchange to hundreds of resorts and earn hotel points and privileges too. Through MVC, I have access to the Ritz Carlton Residence Club at very affordable prices. I have a 7 night reservation in St Thomas next June in a 2 BR/2.5 bath for the equivalent of $2100 for a week.

I agree that Grand Luxxe is very nice but I do not think it is heads and shoulders above anywhere else I stay (Four Seasons Residence Club, Ritz Carlton Residence Club, even Westins and Marriotts in Hawaii and higher end Disney clubs are pretty great - Aulani uses a lot of natural materials and finishes). I also still go to non-timeshare resorts and cruises when I travel to places that do not have timeshares like French Polynesia next year.

This would be a great thread to start. You would get a very lively debate that would go on forever!


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## jssquared (Oct 17, 2018)

Thank you so much for your reply. It all makes sense to me. 
Just a question, why does everyone assume that a Vidanta contract is a ten year contract?  A 1+2 contract allows you to have the benefit of two vacation weeks for up to 100 years. Now granted, there is a renewal fee, but those two weeks gives one access to their unit type for 100 years that can be assigned to family beneficiaries.  There is a potential downgrade in some elements for these contracts for the non registered weeks, but you can certainly still enjoy the resort essentially in perpetuity.


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## TravelTime (Oct 17, 2018)

Yes they are 100 year contracts but, as you mentions, the non-registered weeks have a lot less value. That was all I meant. If you divide by 100, and never upgrade, then it would bring down the annual cost. The contract renewal fees are not too bad.


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## bizaro86 (Oct 18, 2018)

jssquared said:


> T Dot - your post leads me to ask a question, which probably deserves its own thread or has already been wrrtten about quite a bit. Specifically, how does price of ownership compare from resort to resort and system to system. I know there are a million variables that include type of unit, maintenance fees, amenities, renewal fees, flexibility of use weeks, booking windows, possible resales, flxiebility to use weeks at multiple resorts and on and on and onl.
> BUT - how does the price to purchase a contract at Vidanta compare to Hyatt or Marriot or Disney or others?  If you are looking at the highest end Grand Luxxe rooms, I am not sure you can even find many comparable anywhere.  I have relatives that have a Westin in St Johns or Ritz in Aspen. I have seen three bed Hyatt in Maui. I have read about some of the larger Disney resorts.  I don’t think any would compare to the four bedroom residence in terms of unit size.
> So, let’s compare something like a 3 bedroom spa tower unit, which is probably a rough equivalent to some of the highest end other resort options. With Vidanta we can use a base 1+2 contract which essentially means three weeks for ten years and then two weeks in perpetuity. I would guess you can get a three bed spa for 100k or so from Vidanta. That is most likely less than other options.
> Has anyone done this type of analysis and can you point me in the right direction. It is my assertion that Vidanta is actually a very good value as compared to other options.
> Even to the poster above who scoffed at almost 400,000. I would not be so quick to rush to judgment. The four bedroom estates will become one of the premier, if not THE premier resort/timeshare destination in the world connected to a full service resort. 2.4 million is a different story, but if Vidanta can get anything approaching that number good for them.



I'm in a 4 bedroom GL NV right now, and if I was looking to drop 6 figures on a Mexican property it would be at the Four Seasons Punta Mita. This place is great and huge, but so is the Four Seasons. However, the 4 seasons has "perfect" in a way that Vidanta doesn't. Not that anything has been bad, but the service/execution here is not as good as the Four Seasons. It's a much larger resort which is probably part of it. Those small things would bother me a lot more if I had paid a six figure buy in...


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## TravelTime (Oct 18, 2018)

The other thing is it is easy to exchange into Grand Luxxe cheaply for the basic 1 and 2 bedrooms through ICE Rewards, SFX, II and other places for less the usage fee. For the 3 and 4 bedrooms, it is easy to exchange in through The Registry for about what the usage fee is. Then you do not need to pay upwards of $100,000 plus the usage fee to stay at GL once a year or so. I guess if they were ever sold out, that would change, of course. However, I do not think they will be sold out in my lifetime. If you like to stay at GL more frequently, travel in high season from Christmas through Easter, stay in the best units and be guarateed a better view, being a member makes a lot of sense for the extra perks.


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## jssquared (Oct 18, 2018)

Bizaro - The Four Seasons Punta Mita is my comp for the highest level at Grand Luxxe.  I just checked on the Four Seasons website for a four bedroom ocean view residence for one week in February (NOT President's Week).  The cost to book through Four Seasons is $28,000 BEFORE taxes (and about 35,000 all in with taxes and resort fees).  I looked online at Luxury Home Away and some of the listings for the same residences are for even more, perhaps based on location at the resort.  I think this might give some sense of a value proposition for the Grand Luxxe 4 bed residence and the 4 bed Estates.


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## TravelTime (Oct 18, 2018)

You can’t compare booking through Four Seasons retail. The way to book Four Seasons “affordably” is through Tri-West: http://www.triwest-timeshare.com/resort/rent/MXNAPUFO

I think Grand Luxxe is fantastic but it is not up to Ritz Carlton or Four Seasons level. The service is definitely not there. Even Disney has better service.


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## Eric B (Oct 18, 2018)

Not sure that Tri-West super saver rentals are a fair apples-to-apples comparison to benchmark the price.  There was only one February 2019 week available ($13,995), it’s non-refundable and it’s not completely clear to me whether there are additional fees/taxes involved.

My opinion is that the only good reason to buy Vidanta is to have greater flexibility in booking during the high season (e.g., ~February) with the ability to adjust a reservation if it becomes necessary.

I haven’t stayed at the Four Seasons Punta Mita, so I cant really compare the two myself, but I’ve quite enjoyed Grand Luxxe and the Estates are supposed to be a step above that.  If I were comparing the costs, I would look to the much lower cost ways to get into both as well as the standard costs.  It’s important not to compare apples to oranges.  By the way, service at Grand Luxxe is much better if you’re an owner using an ownership week than it is on an exchange and they vary the treatment with your level of ownership.  They might not do that at Four Seasons, but it’s a reality I accept when I exchange back into Vidanta to stay at a lower cost.


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## TravelTime (Oct 18, 2018)

I agree with you Eric. At this level, it is not really about price anymore. Except who wants to pay $100,000 for something if you can get it for $5000. I am not referring to anything specifically, just making a broad generalization about the benefits of buying resale.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Oct 18, 2018)

jssquared said:


> Bizaro - The Four Seasons Punta Mita is my comp .....  I just checked on the Four Seasons website for a four bedroom ocean view residence for one week in February (NOT President's Week).  The cost to book through Four Seasons is $28,000 BEFORE taxes (and about 35,000 all in with taxes and resort fees).  .



That is $ 3.50 per minute / including sleep time .


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## Eric B (Oct 18, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> That is $ 3.50 per minute / including sleep time .



Yes, but it sleeps 10, so it works out to just 35 cents per person per minute....


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## PigsDad (Oct 19, 2018)

Eric B said:


> Yes, but it sleeps 10, so it works out to just 35 cents per person per minute....


Maybe, but I highly doubt that someone who would pay $35,000 for a week's vacation would "rack 'em, pack 'em, and stack 'em" to stuff the unit to maximum capacity.  Just a hunch...

Kurt


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## TravelTime (Nov 1, 2018)

Well, I won the Four Season lottery. So I have the opportunity to book at Four Seasons Punta Mita next week. I will let you know what I get!

I promise if we can get a reservation, we will not pack them in.


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## bizaro86 (Nov 2, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Well, I won the Four Season lottery. So I have the opportunity to book at Four Seasons Punta Mita next week. I will let you know what I get!
> 
> I promise if we can get a reservation, we will not pack them in.



Congratulations! I'd be very interested in hearing what the upcharge/availability is like.


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## TravelTime (Nov 2, 2018)

bizaro86 said:


> Congratulations! I'd be very interested in hearing what the upcharge/availability is like.



The upcharge is very reasonable. The exchange fee is a flat fee of $225 for everyone. Then the nightly upcharge varies by what you own and what you are exchanging for. It varies from $75 per night for a Platinum season 2 bedroom to Gold season 2 bedroom to $250 per night for a Gold season 2 bedroom to a Platinum season 4 bedroom. We are also paying the MF of $2600 for the Four Seasons Aviara. So all in, the week will be under $4000. Given the real rental prices, this is a bargain. We only need a 2 bedroom but I may reserve a 3 bedroom. We are interested in July 4th week and since that starts next year in June, it is still Gold season. July and August are Platinum Season in Punta Mita. It is interesting that while low season at Grand Luxxe Nuevo Vallarta is May-Nov, at Four Seasons Punta Mita, only 4 months are low season (May, June, Sept, Oct). Right now, availability looks good at Punta Mita but I will let you know if I get what I want. Let me add again, I am super excited. Even the selling agent told me how unlikely it would be to win the lottery exchange. This is our first year owning. I am so thrilled!


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