# Voyager-Time for Ron to do a follow up with Wyndham execs.



## Braindead (Aug 27, 2017)

Ron has volunteered to be our voice. Ron has offered to go to Orlando to meet with Wyndham execs and OUR BODs as a update on Voyager. When owners send emails even to the execs most if not all are read by subordinates. The only way to know the execs are up to date on Voyager is to meet with them face to face.

We the owners need to inform Ron of the good the bad and the ugly on Voyager.
Ron has suggested putting things in three buckets regarding Voyager.
1. Broken not working
2. Improve. Working but need to be user friendly
3. Possible tweaks to rules.

Ron has stated Wyndham didn't like what he did with their system in the past. But I will guarantee you they respect Ron and his knowledge of all aspects of the systems [website-buying-selling]. If anyone else would like to volunteer to go along I'm fine with 2-3 going no more.

I think we have to try to relate what we see are problems. I had a grandfather that thought M. Jordan wasn't a good basketball player. He always pointed out MJs shooting % was bad. I always pointed if he didn't ever take the shot he wouldn't ever miss. Let's take our shot even if we miss.
Let's hear the good the bad and the ugly

Thank You Ron for volunteering and doing so on your own time and dime.


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## Avislo (Aug 27, 2017)

Braindead said:


> ... Ron has stated Wyndham didn't like what he did with their system in the past. But I will guarantee you they respect Ron and his knowledge of all aspects of the systems [website-buying-selling]. If anyone else would like to volunteer to go along I'm fine with 2-3 going no more ... I think we have to try to relate what we see are problems."



Are you a volunteer?


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## Braindead (Aug 27, 2017)

Avislo said:


> Are you a volunteer?


No. I have no travels to Florida in the near future. I just added that if someone else has interest in going. I don't think it has to be just one person going but you can't have a bus load either in my opinion. It needs to be a narrow on focus meeting


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## ronparise (Aug 27, 2017)

FYI if they agree to see me, I'm going alone


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## 55plus (Aug 27, 2017)

I wonder if Wyndham Corporate has metal detectors?


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## Braindead (Aug 27, 2017)

Broken
1. Auto upgrade not working more often than it works.
2. Upgrade choices need to be Resort specific. List all unit types and let owners choose the upgrades they want to accept such as one BR. Deluxe to one BR. Presidential.  All room types are Resort specific when searching so they should be able to list them for upgrades.
3. RARP.  No one seems to be able to make RARP reservations.
4. ARP. The problem here is it's owner specific. May have to be handled by individual basis.

Improve 
1. Why 2 search options on home page? Choose the one they want owners to use.
2. Search availability needs to be patterned from the old website. 2 month calendar and the 4 day availability window 

Rules 
1. If they can't get the auto upgrade to work properly. Allow x amount of upgrade levels per year at time of booking even during ARP window.


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## Cyrus24 (Aug 27, 2017)

Under Rules.  _Change the Points Deposit Feature to allow for a 24 month floating use window, starting on the date of the deposit.  Also do not allow Current Use Year points to be deposited until the Use Year has arrived. _Flexibility for the non-Platinum owner is desperately needed and this type of 'change' should close the stripping of contracts that was allowed with the old Credit Pool.  I'd rather have the credit pool back, but, a less restrictive Deposit feature would be greatly appreciated.


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## Braindead (Aug 27, 2017)

Owners should also post information they have to show things not working.
If you have screen shots you don't need to post them. Just post what you have.
Then Ron can pick and choose if he needs info forwarded to him to take along.
I don't want Ron inundated with emails.


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## ecwinch (Aug 27, 2017)

I would recommend leaving the rule changes out of the conversation. The rule changes did not cause the web site problems.


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## Sandi Bo (Aug 27, 2017)

When prioritizing our work, we categorize as:
Must haves
Should haves
and Nice to haves

And, yes, I agree, leave the rules out.  That's a whole nuther (different) discussion.


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## OutSkiing (Aug 27, 2017)

I would categorize anything Systemically / consistently broken as a Must Have:
- RARP has not worked for us or Owner Care and they say for nobody. And this is after Wyndham specifically 'upped' the rule for number of RARP reservations we are supposed to be able to do in a year.  A Wyndham Sales person in Nashville tried to tell us it worked for him and it must be our account but I don't believe that's true. He was just trying to get us to re-arrange our account in any way he could think of (no dice).
- If ARP is not working for some, that is a big issue.
- How could cancellations of smallest unit at resort NOT come back, sometimes ever? I hope this is not flying too close to the 'rules change' or inventory management. 

One of the 'Should Haves' is obviously improving the way to find next available date.  I would avoid phrases like 'pattern after the old website' as this is calling their new baby ugly and the new data is probably structured to allow more flexibility. The old way just happened to work nicely because you could see 4 days either direction .. you still had to keep trying different weeks to get a full picture.  1) Could keep the same (new) approach  except that as we scroll through the calendar for next available, don't make us choose a particular room type before the scroll forward. If something is available then hover over or click to see what room types.  2) Of course speed up the scroll forward through next available dates. Has anyone noticed that the slow speed of forward scroll does NOT seem to be a server side issue .. the next months calendar paints almost immediately in gray and it often seems to have correct availability showing.  The slowdown seems to be the javascript run locally after the calendar data returns. Seems like some optimization could be done.

Bob


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## dewdrops (Aug 28, 2017)

If you were thinking to do this, then pls disregard, and if not then I'd like to suggest perhaps also bring a laptop and demonstrate 

how the 'flexible' search is not working by having them do the search - you give parameters (start timer as they go through process, play Jeopardy music)
how cancellations do not come back (with any luck though, it will probably be working that day!) right away 
upgrades - probably can't demonstrate this since not enough time perhaps
If the execs don't seem to frustrated, then maybe these 'problems' are by design to eliminate mega-renters by making searches painfully slow (unless you know exact dates, room type, and places) and by random return of cancellations.  The power user/owner that has time to vacation or can be flexible is just collateral damage. Or maybe search functions designed first for an app interface, so does not work well on computer. 

And how will owners, through no fault of their own, who have not been able to login at all or only intermittently be compensated? Do they have to squawk to get goodwill points or refund of maintenance fees or other compensation?  Will Wyndham offer them without asking, do the right thing?  It seems very unfair they cannot search and make reservations when others can. 

Just some thoughts.


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## Railman83 (Aug 28, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Ron has volunteered to be our voice. Ron has offered to go to Orlando to meet with Wyndham execs and OUR BODs as a update on Voyager. When owners send emails even to the execs most if not all are read by subordinates. The only way to know the execs are up to date on Voyager is to meet with them face to face.
> 
> We the owners need to inform Ron of the good the bad and the ugly on Voyager.
> Ron has suggested putting things in three buckets regarding Voyager.
> ...



If the messenger is Ron then we should stick to bucket 1&2 because otherwise the message is "hey this guy who knows every loophole and how to work the system better than the people who designed it thinks we ought to make these changes."    Perhaps they would see the wisdom but likely they would think he is just putting one over on them for self serving reasons or sport.

I think Wyndham knows exactly what they are doing and who they are hurting with their rule changes and figure that they are coming out ahead.   Maybe they are wrong but I don't think Ron will convince them their business model is wrong even though he built a higher margin business off their system than they have themselves.


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## ilya (Aug 28, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> If the messenger is Ron then we should stick to bucket 1&2 because otherwise the message is "hey this guy who knows every loophole and how to work the system better than the people who designed it thinks we ought to make these changes."    Perhaps they would see the wisdom but likely they would think he is just putting one over on them for self serving reasons or sport.
> 
> I think Wyndham knows exactly what they are doing and who they are hurting with their rule changes and figure that they are coming out ahead.   Maybe they are wrong but I don't think Ron will convince them their business model is wrong even though he built a higher margin business off their system than they have themselves.




I agree, I think Wyndham knows exactly what they are doing and have done. If they need a list they can just look here on TUG. If I was Wyndham I would hire Ron to comb thru the system and find all the loopholes.


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## 55plus (Aug 28, 2017)

A drop in sales will get Wyndham's attention. Nothing else will so emphasis to others when at a resort not to buy from Wyndham and tell them about the secondary market - spread the word far and wide. The piece of crap new website is by design to benefit Wyndham Extra Holidays by hindering our ability to efficiently search for availability. There is no other logical reason or we would have seen positive changes by now. Can you hear us now Wyndham?


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## ronparise (Aug 28, 2017)

dewdrops said:


> If you were thinking to do this, then pls disregard, and if not then I'd like to suggest perhaps also bring a laptop and demonstrate
> 
> how the 'flexible' search is not working by having them do the search - you give parameters (start timer as they go through process, play Jeopardy music)
> how cancellations do not come back (with any luck though, it will probably be working that day!) right away
> ...



Yes, I would expect to have a laptop with me, but the search function can be tested on my i phone too

And that some can't log in at all is on my list

I'm not going to try and read their minds or guess their motavation. My goal is to simply demonstrate that some of Voyager dosent work as well as it could or should. And get them to see what I see

i don't know who to blame for my approach to things like this (probably the Jesuits and all that logical thinking they taught me in high school and college). In any argument or discussion the first step is to get some agreement on the facts and agree on the assumptions.

That's all I hope to do. Present the facts. And what I'm doing now is to get some agreement among those of us on this forum as to what we see as the facts.


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## ronparise (Aug 28, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> If the messenger is Ron then we should stick to bucket 1&2 because otherwise the message is "hey this guy who knows every loophole and how to work the system better than the people who designed it thinks we ought to make these changes."    Perhaps they would see the wisdom but likely they would think he is just putting one over on them for self serving reasons or sport.
> 
> I think Wyndham knows exactly what they are doing and who they are hurting with their rule changes and figure that they are coming out ahead.   Maybe they are wrong but I don't think Ron will convince them their business model is wrong even though he built a higher margin business off their system than they have themselves.



My only purpose to do this is to get some acknowledgement that the website isn't working the way they want it to work. ie If they intend that all owners be able to log into the site and make reservations with the points they own, they have a problem because we all can't. And if they intend to have an auto upgrade function that works; they don't. And if their goal was to make it possible to make ARP reservations online, they have a problem because some of us can't make arp reservations at all

I don't care that the points deposit feature is worse than the old credit pool and I don't care that it's gonna cost an extra $99 for overlapping speculative reservations. I don't even care that we can't predict when cancellations come back available. Those things are , I think, By design. And I don't care that the pretty pictures are too big 

If they tell me they already know this stuff I'm happy. and if they don't know going into this meeting I propose, I'm going to tell them. As long as they listen and don't shoot the messenger I'm happy 

whether they do anything or not. I don't care. I'm not going to pretend that I can move wyndham off their corporate goals, whatever they are.

Remember I hope to meet with the board of our hoa. Not Wyndham.  Yes I know that their day jobs are as Wyndham executives, but I want want them to take off their Wyndham hats and put on their hoa hats for our meeting

Some years ago there was a problem with some inventory being loaded into the Worldmark system (where I was also a member) I got the VCs to see the problem as well as the owner care people and and even the board/owner liaison finally saw the problem. Yet the the inventory control people continued to say "all is well"  I asked  for 5 minutes to address the board at their next quarterly  meeting and provided the statement I would make in writing ahead of time. coincidently the meeting was going to be in Orlando, three hours from my home. So my request was not just an idle threat. I could go. Two days before the meeting the missing inventory showed up. I went to that meeting anyway And met two guys there that happen to now serve on the club Wyndham board. These are the two individuals I hope to meet with now


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## Avislo (Aug 28, 2017)

ronparise said:


> My only purpose to do this is to get some acknowledgement that the website isn't working the way they want it to work. ie If they intend that all owners be able to log into the site and make reservations with the points they own, they have a problem because we all can't. And if they intend to have an auto upgrade function that works; they don't. And if their goal was to make it possible to make ARP reservations online, they have a problem because some of us can't make arp reservations at all ... Remember I hope to meet with the board of our hoa. Not Wyndham ... Some years ago there was a problem with some inventory being loaded into the Worldmark system (where I was also a member) ... Two days before the meeting the missing inventory showed up. I went to that meeting anyway And met two guys there that happen to now serve on the club Wyndham board. These are the two individuals I hope to meet with now



It sounds like you have identified your 4 main points and are ready for the meeting, if granted.


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## am1 (Aug 28, 2017)

If wyndham wanted to resolve this they would give me a call.  Work out all the old issues so what happened in the past does not happen again as well as see what new loopholes owners may exploit so Wyndham can put an end to them before they get too big.


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## Braindead (Aug 28, 2017)

am1 said:


> If wyndham wanted to resolve this they would give me a call.  Work out all the old issues so what happened in the past does not happen again as well as see what new loopholes owners may exploit so Wyndham can put an end to them before they get too big.


It would've been so easy for WYN to monitor the top 3-6 users of GCs to learn all the loopholes and knowledge they needed. That should've been a normal business practice on WYNs part. WYN is supposed to be the security guard monitoring the system.
Piss poor management on WYN to let things get so far out of hand. Now we all pay for it


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## am1 (Aug 28, 2017)

I am sure Wyndham not contacting me means they have it under control or at least working on it.


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## Braindead (Aug 28, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I don't even care that we can't predict when cancellations come back available. Those things are , I think, By design. And I don't care that the pretty pictures are too big


WYNs answer on this baffles me. Why wouldn't they say immediately for upgrades and available online to other owners is random. If I was a WYN exec every time I was asked when a cancelled reservation comes back online - I'd answer why do you care you cancelled the reservation because you no longer wanted it. Thank you for canceling the reservation making it available for someone else.


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## johnstonga (Aug 28, 2017)

*
"God's Speed" Ron .... may the Jesuit Force be with you.

First we need to get the Reservation System to work "as advertised" ...... 

Then improved with a more flexible search function ... 
.....  4+ day check-in window
.....  show all unit sizes, including on 'availability calendar'
....   allow 'manual upgrades' within upgrade windows for Existing Res, as well as "instant" ones.
& anything that can improve SPEED over 'esthetics' like pictures.

Thanks .. and Good Luck busting them out of their Silos.

GAJ*


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## Braindead (Aug 28, 2017)

am1 said:


> I am sure Wyndham not contacting me means they have it under control or at least working on it.


I'm betting not any better than before. They'll let it get out of control again and use the opportunity to take away more benefits.
The best deterrent WYN has is what they did to you and others. Get to big and successful WYN will put you out of business .


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## Sandi Bo (Aug 28, 2017)

Braindead said:


> WYNs answer on this baffles me. Why wouldn't they say immediately for upgrades and available online to other owners is random. If I was a WYN exec every time I was asked when a cancelled reservation comes back online - I'd answer why do you care you cancelled the reservation because you no longer wanted it. Thank you for canceling the reservation making it available for someone else.


Just guessing here -- but maybe because they are still selling the cancel/rebook - thus need some to maintain some illusion that it's alive and well.


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## jjmanthei05 (Aug 28, 2017)

Braindead said:


> It would've been so easy for WYN to monitor the top 3-6 users of GCs to learn all the loopholes and knowledge they needed. That should've been a normal business practice on WYNs part. WYN is supposed to be the security guard monitoring the system.
> Piss poor management on WYN to let things get so far out of hand. Now we all pay for it



I don't think this would have been that easy since the top 3-6 gc users were points managers that had 10s if not 100s of accounts in multiple different names that have no links to each other. Not sure how you track that down without some serious forensic accounting of accounts (reservations moving between accounts, IP addresses of logins, ect) and I'm not sure if wyndham had the data to be able to do that. 
Jason


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## asreiter (Aug 28, 2017)

I would love to have the ability to see all units available on a certain date instead of searching each unit individually again. We don't always NEED a 3 bedroom but would book one if it's available


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## ronparise (Aug 28, 2017)

jjmanthei05 said:


> I don't think this would have been that easy since the top 3-6 gc users were points managers that had 10s if not 100s of accounts in multiple different names that have no links to each other. Not sure how you track that down without some serious forensic accounting of accounts (reservations moving between accounts, IP addresses of logins, ect) and I'm not sure if wyndham had the data to be able to do that.
> Jason



True about the points managers but they could have looked at the percentage of reservations that used guest confirms. A little account with a guest named for every reservation could have raised a flag


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## dgalati (Aug 28, 2017)

New system stinks and was a complete disaster. The number of members that have lost points and or could not book vacations is alarming. 3 years to roll this out and completely failed doing so. Wyndham will compensate you for the lost time on phone trying to resolve issues. 1 week RCI vacation voucher all yours for $299


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## dgalati (Aug 28, 2017)

asreiter said:


> I would love to have the ability to see all units available on a certain date instead of searching each unit individually again. We don't always NEED a 3 bedroom but would book one if it's available


Good point, so slow to go to each unit type and have to click through all the months to get to a specific date. Old system was faster and easier to use.


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## Braindead (Aug 28, 2017)

jjmanthei05 said:


> I don't think this would have been that easy since the top 3-6 gc users were points managers that had 10s if not 100s of accounts in multiple different names that have no links to each other. Not sure how you track that down without some serious forensic accounting of accounts (reservations moving between accounts, IP addresses of logins, ect) and I'm not sure if wyndham had the data to be able to do that.
> Jason


I was talking about owners like AM1,Ron and others. Top GCs users for an individual account. Most point managers deal with a lot of the smaller VIP Platinum accounts so they wouldn't be in top users of GCs per account.


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## paxsarah (Aug 28, 2017)

dgalati said:


> have to click through all the months to get to a specific date



I just want to second this. As a non-power user, this is ridiculous. If I want to make a reservation for next June and it's now August it's like, September, spin, spin, spin, October, spin, spin, spin, November, spin, spin, spin, et cetera through until June. Then if I change anything or the search gets unresponsive I get to do it all over again.


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## ronparise (Aug 28, 2017)

paxsarah said:


> I just want to second this. As a non-power user, this is ridiculous. If I want to make a reservation for next June and it's now August it's like, September, spin, spin, spin, October, spin, spin, spin, November, spin, spin, spin, et cetera through until June. Then if I change anything or the search gets unresponsive I get to do it all over again.


Yep it's awful but ultimately you can make a reservation. 
Some folks can't log in at all
Auto upgrade dosent work and
Arp doesn't work

It's these "broken" things that are at the top of my list


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## Bigrob (Aug 28, 2017)

Braindead said:


> WYNs answer on this baffles me. Why wouldn't they say immediately for upgrades and available online to other owners is random. If I was a WYN exec every time I was asked when a cancelled reservation comes back online - I'd answer why do you care you cancelled the reservation because you no longer wanted it. Thank you for canceling the reservation making it available for someone else.



There are other reasons a reservation may be cancelled - for example to shorten it, thereby freeing up night(s) that would otherwise be wasted. Or possibly to lengthen a reservation by a day (since you can no longer book a single night until inside the cancellation window.) 

It may be that once a number of former users/abusers of "cancel/rebook" are no longer Wyndham owners, the random wait interval, if it has been programmed in, may be reset to zero or a fixed number like before. 

It's hard for me to believe a Wyndham exec would be dumb enough to not know there are "legitimate" reasons for an owner to cancel a reservation with the intention of rebooking at least a portion (or superset) of the original interval.


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## paxsarah (Aug 28, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Yep it's awful but ultimately you can make a reservation.
> Some folks can't log in at all
> Auto upgrade dosent work and
> Arp doesn't work
> ...



Sure. Just like Braindead listed in the top post, #1 is broken, #2 is improve, and I would expect you to prioritize them in that order. I thought the only one that consensus had eliminated was #3, reconsider the new rules.

This clearly falls under "improve" and IMO is a bigger deal than pictures being too big. For one, in addition to taking extra time for the owner/end user, it must create a major tax on Wyndham's resources. If I want to look at next June's availability, Wyndham's servers have to call to the database and display 10 months worth of calendars, when if I could skip directly to June it would just take one. I'm not an IT person, but I have to think that reducing that load would create efficiency on their end as well.


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## Bigrob (Aug 28, 2017)

It may be that they would respond best to "use cases"... since it's apparent that not all use cases were considered when putting together the first iteration of the new website.

The biggest "miss" on use cases, in my opinion, is the assumption that owners will always know the exact dates they want to travel. So simply ask the execs to find the first available 4-night stay at Bonnet Creek in at least a 3BR unit and watch the fun begin. A fair number of their owners are probably either retirement age, or close. They are not bound by school calendars and can travel more flexibly than the system is designed for.


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## Braindead (Aug 28, 2017)

Bigrob said:


> There are other reasons a reservation may be cancelled - for example to shorten it, thereby freeing up night(s) that would otherwise be wasted. Or possibly to lengthen a reservation by a day (since you can no longer book a single night until inside the cancellation window.)
> 
> It may be that once a number of former users/abusers of "cancel/rebook" are no longer Wyndham owners, the random wait interval, if it has been programmed in, may be reset to zero or a fixed number like before.
> 
> It's hard for me to believe a Wyndham exec would be dumb enough to not know there are "legitimate" reasons for an owner to cancel a reservation with the intention of rebooking at least a portion (or superset) of the original interval.


Normally I wouldn't respond but you used the word dumb. In your scenarios your still canceling because the reservation no longer fits your needs.
I won't cancel a reservation jeopardizing our family vacation. I have left reservations in place even if I didn't need all nights of the reservation even in the old system. On adding nights same way if nothing ever came available might have to stay in motel that night. If your going to try and tweak a reservation and risk losing it ruining your family vacation. You really have nothing to complain about. If WYN does allow a cancelled reservation coming back instantly welcome back cancel rebook atleast on the smaller units. Guess I'm not smart enough to possibly ruin our family vacation.


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## paxsarah (Aug 28, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Normally I wouldn't respond but you used the word dumb. In your scenarios your still canceling because the reservation no longer fits your needs.
> I won't cancel a reservation jeopardizing our family vacation. I have left reservations in place even if I didn't need all nights of the reservation even in the old system. On adding nights same way if nothing ever came available might have to stay in motel that night. If your going to try and tweak a reservation and risk losing it ruining your family vacation. You really have nothing to complain about. If WYN does allow a cancelled reservation coming back instantly welcome back cancel rebook atleast on the smaller units. Guess I'm not smart enough to possibly ruin our family vacation.



And it's possible that while "ignorant" might be a better word than "dumb," I wonder how many Wyn execs even realize that if an owner wants to shorten a reservation, we can't just modify it by canceling a night or two and would have to cancel and partially rebook (if we even wanted to take that chance). I mean, maybe they're completely aware but I wouldn't be surprised if most of them had no idea, especially with a new system that has moved to more of a night-by-night basis instead of weeks. We all remember how flabbergasted they were when Ron explained to them features of the old system that we all were aware of but they didn't really realize how it worked in practice. This may be the same thing.


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## Braindead (Aug 28, 2017)

paxsarah said:


> And it's possible that while "ignorant" might be a better word than "dumb," I wonder how many Wyn execs even realize that if an owner wants to shorten a reservation, we can't just modify it by canceling a night or two and would have to cancel and partially rebook (if we even wanted to take that chance). I mean, maybe they're completely aware but I wouldn't be surprised if most of them had no idea, especially with a new system that has moved to more of a night-by-night basis instead of weeks. We all remember how flabbergasted they were when Ron explained to them features of the old system that we all were aware of but they didn't really realize how it worked in practice. This may be the same thing.


Being able to modify a reservation would be a great NEW benefit. But it isn't if you want to play with fire and get burnt don't complain. I have made 3 night reservations in the past to add one night to an existing reservation. Timeshares have never been looked at as a night by night stay like a motel


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## chapjim (Aug 28, 2017)

Ron -

How many accounts do you have available?  Just in case when you try to demo and they tell you your account is effed up, it would be nice to have a couple of extra ones.


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## paxsarah (Aug 28, 2017)

I think that would be an interesting "use case" (as proposed above) - tell the executive that they have a week reservation booked for Christmas week, but now they need to cancel the last two nights. Would they know it's kind of a trick question?


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## Bigrob (Aug 28, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Normally I wouldn't respond but you used the word dumb. In your scenarios your still canceling because the reservation no longer fits your needs.
> I won't cancel a reservation jeopardizing our family vacation. I have left reservations in place even if I didn't need all nights of the reservation even in the old system. On adding nights same way if nothing ever came available might have to stay in motel that night. If your going to try and tweak a reservation and risk losing it ruining your family vacation. You really have nothing to complain about. If WYN does allow a cancelled reservation coming back instantly welcome back cancel rebook atleast on the smaller units. Guess I'm not smart enough to possibly ruin our family vacation.



No, guess you're not. But what people with lots of points would do now is take up MORE inventory making additional reservations they don't need in order to be able to keep the one that ends up fitting. That makes it harder for everyone, less availability for everyone. No one wins by having the system offer less flexibility.

If I were planning a family vacation now I'd book all different lengths of trips to make sure I was covered, and would wait until I was sure about which one I actually needed before I would cancel the ones I didn't end up needing. 

Most people who buy timeshares don't do so with the thought of having a system so inflexible that they will have to book motels if they want to extend their stay a day. At least, those who have bought timeshares in the last 25 years when flexible points-based systems surpassed week-based timeshares. And yes it is possible to waste your points and deprive other owners of the ability to book nights you don't need due to an inflexible booking system... but why would you advocate for that? I'm sorry, I guess I don't get it.


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## Bigrob (Aug 28, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Timeshares have never been looked at as a night by night stay like a motel



They are moving closer and closer to that direction and in fact Wyndham's own system is now based on nightly stays, rather than weeks. Even RCI has nightly stays.


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## Braindead (Aug 28, 2017)

Bigrob said:


> Most people who buy timeshares don't do so with the thought of having a system so inflexible that they will have to book motels if they want to extend their stay a day. At least, those who have bought timeshares in the last 25 years when flexible points-based systems surpassed week-based timeshares. And yes it is possible to waste your points and deprive other owners of the ability to book nights you don't need due to an inflexible booking system... but why would you advocate for that? I'm sorry, I guess I don't get it.


I didn't advocate for that. I advocated it would be a GREAT NEW BENEFIT to be able to modify an existing reservation.


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## ronparise (Aug 28, 2017)

chapjim said:


> Ron -
> 
> How many accounts do you have available?  Just in case when you try to demo and they tell you your account is effed up, it would be nice to have a couple of extra ones.



I have access to one that works, but its not VIP,  one Silver VIP, but its locked and I have three of my old accounts accessed with one log in They are no longer VIP and they are locked

I can demonstrate the search, the lack of ARP but not the upgrade feature


----------



## 55plus (Aug 28, 2017)

Anyone know if Wyndham Corporate (should read Wyndham Corrupt) have armed guards?


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## LDBEH (Aug 28, 2017)

Bigrob said:


> It may be that they would respond best to "use cases"... since it's apparent that not all use cases were considered when putting together the first iteration of the new website.
> 
> The biggest "miss" on use cases, in my opinion, is the assumption that owners will always know the exact dates they want to travel. So simply ask the execs to find the first available 4-night stay at Bonnet Creek in at least a 3BR unit and watch the fun begin. A fair number of their owners are probably either retirement age, or close. They are not bound by school calendars and can travel more flexibly than the system is designed for.




Better Yet - Have them try to find a 2BR or larger available at Ocean Boulevard - Myrtle Beach, where now they have to look at the availability of several different Towers while at the same time meeting the BR requirment...this will drive them crazy!


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## 55plus (Aug 28, 2017)

LDBEH said:


> Better Yet - Have them try to find a 2BR or larger available at Ocean Boulevard - Myrtle Beach, where now they have to look at the availability of several different Towers while at the same time meeting the BR requirment...this will drive them crazy!


That's the plan, drive us crazy. Make searching for availability so frustrating and time consuming we give up which leaves more inventory for Extra Holidays. There is no other logical reason for designing and developing a piece of crap website than to benefit their bottom line.


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## Railman83 (Aug 28, 2017)

55plus said:


> That's the plan, drive us crazy. Make searching for availability so frustrating and time consuming we give up which leaves more inventory for Extra Holidays. There is no other logical reason for designing and developing a piece of crap website than to benefit their bottom line.




I keep hearing this theory from 55plus about everything wrong with any part of Wyndham, the website, or anything else being a giant conspiracy theory for Extra Vactions.

Maybe.   But you have no proof, never offer proof and say it repeatedly in every forum as if it is a fact.   Regardless of what the string is about, you somehow get segue to your conspiracy theory.   Do you have anything to back any of this up?  To be clear, I'm not asking for you to speak louder, or repeat your conclusion yet again,  I'm asking if you have something to base your deduction on that isn't a complete guess rooted in your perception of the kind of people you think Wyndham management are?

BTW on your "no other logical reason" schtick.  Really?  No other possibilities?   You have eliminated all other options and the extra vacation thing is the only possibility? Hmmmm It couldn't be that their IT is just inept? or their systems? or the people designing the systems are disconnected from the customer? or they rushed things because the megarenters were hurting them?, or the misread the tea leaves that pretty pictures were more appealing than workable search?it couldn't be any of a dozen other possible reasons suggested by a dozen other tuggers, all of which are more plausible than your assumption that Wyndham has upturned their entire world in order to get more inventory for a comparatively small revenue stream.


----------



## 55plus (Aug 28, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> I keep hearing this theory from 55plus about everything wrong with any part of Wyndham, the website, or anything else being a giant conspiracy theory for Extra Vactions.
> 
> Maybe.   But you have no proof, never offer proof and say it repeatedly in every forum as if it is a fact.   Regardless of what the string is about, you somehow get segue to your conspiracy theory.   Do you have anything to back any of this up?  To be clear, I'm not asking for you to speak louder, or repeat your conclusion yet again,  I'm asking if you have something to base your deduction on that isn't a complete guess rooted in your perception of the kind of people you think Wyndham management are?
> 
> BTW on your "no other logical reason" schtick.  Really?  No other possibilities?   You have eliminated all other options and the extra vacation thing is the only possibility? Hmmmm It couldn't be that their IT is just inept? or their systems? or the people designing the systems are disconnected from the customer? or they rushed things because the megarenters were hurting them?, or the misread the tea leaves that pretty pictures were more appealing than workable search?it couldn't be any of a dozen other possible reasons suggested by a dozen other tuggers, all of which are more plausible than your assumption that Wyndham has upturned their entire world in order to get more inventory for a comparatively small revenue stream.


Are you in the tank with Wyndham too? It sounds like it. . .


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## Railman83 (Aug 28, 2017)

55plus said:


> Are you in the tank with Wyndham too? It sounds like it. . .


I'm a witch burn me!


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Aug 28, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> I'm a witch burn me!



If you are a werewolf - it would take  SILVER VIP status or better to cancel (and rebook?) your vacation life .


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## ronparise (Aug 28, 2017)

55plus said:


> Anyone know if Wyndham Corporate (should read Wyndham Corrupt) have armed guards?



There is security but I don't know if they are armed.  

I've been in the building for three meeting and to deliver a couple of times more. I've never been allowed above the first floor. You check in at the reception desk and they come down to me. They have meeting rooms on the first floor and a cafeteria. I met someone there over coffee once too. 

I was allowed to go to the men's room on my own


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## 55plus (Aug 28, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I was allowed to go to the men's room on my own


Did Wyndham impose a fee on you to pee?


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## cayman01 (Aug 28, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Yep it's awful but ultimately you can make a reservation.
> Some folks can't log in at all
> Auto upgrade dosent work and
> Arp doesn't work
> ...



Also needing to be addressed is point buckets. some owners have wildly negative point amounts for some of their contracts. Another broken thing is resort inventory. I've been periodically looking at the NC resorts and there is exactly NOTHING available for the the next ten months. Others have talked about other resorts with the same issue ( Panama City Beach, Emerald Grand, to name a couple).


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## smurfyblue (Aug 29, 2017)

Bigrob said:


> There are other reasons a reservation may be cancelled - for example to shorten it, thereby freeing up night(s) that would otherwise be wasted. Or possibly to lengthen a reservation by a day (since you can no longer book a single night until inside the cancellation window.)
> 
> It may be that once a number of former users/abusers of "cancel/rebook" are no longer Wyndham owners, the random wait interval, if it has been programmed in, may be reset to zero or a fixed number like before.



I actually had this problem. I made a reservation, paid the fee cause I was out of reservations points or whatever they call it. Immediately upon completing the reservation I realized I was a day short. There was no option to fix it other than cancel and redo the reservation, So I had to pay another reservation fee. Even airlines allow cancellations within 24 hours! Wyndham reps refused to refund the fee or adjust the existing reservation. I had to submit a claim to my credit card. I got a refund and I hope they got it by reversing Wyndham's charge. It was just extremely annoying. I made the error because of the confusing website and the change in how length of stay is now calculated. Used to be by number of nights not check in/out days.

Anyways. At least they should give us a way to adjust an existing reservation. I have lost many points to day 1 and last days cause when my travel plans were settled I had more days than I needed. Or at least allow a 24 hour cancellation with a refund of reservation point or fee. Thanks.


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## sandkastle4966 (Aug 29, 2017)

I just want to see all availability at one resort in a given month without having to:
Select one room at a time (14 options - each room size, standard, deluxe, 2 mobility options)
Paging forward one month at a time.  it is August, looking for March is 7 month away.

14 options, 7 months =  98 "clicks", and wait for each page to load.

If I could select multiple rooms options on the availability calendar,  I only have to page forwards "7 clicks" - better than 98 !

I get frustrated after 3 room types and write nasty feedback.
What used to take 30 seconds now takes 5-10 minutes

this is a real example - I counted my options and it took 9 minutes.  started with standard rooms, then "accessable", then went up one size at a time.

Prior was one screen - select checkin date, number of days, room sizes, HIT ENTER.
Showed a listing of that date for the required number of days, what rooms were available, PLUS the calendar to show what other options were available.


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## sandkastle4966 (Aug 29, 2017)

Braindead said:


> WYNs answer on this baffles me. Why wouldn't they say immediately for upgrades and available online to other owners is random. If I was a WYN exec every time I was asked when a cancelled reservation comes back online - I'd answer why do you care you cancelled the reservation because you no longer wanted it. Thank you for canceling the reservation making it available for someone else.



Agreed.  This is a moot point.  This is behaving exactly the way Wyn wants it to....... Please fix basic functionality.  We will find new loopholes to exploit later !


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## bnoble (Aug 29, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I was allowed to go to the men's room on my own


So, not quite the NSA then.


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## Braindead (Aug 29, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Yep it's awful but ultimately you can make a reservation.
> Some folks can't log in at all
> Auto upgrade dosent work and
> Arp doesn't work
> ...


Add more than owner state they cannot cancel a reservation and RARP

It's not broken but search function is as good as broken and needs to be brought up right behind broken issues.
I don't think any of us want the search function left out of your meeting. Leaving WYN thinking we are getting used to it in it's current form


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## ronparise (Aug 29, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Add more than owner state they cannot cancel a reservation and RARP
> 
> It's not broken but search function is as good as broken and needs to be brought up right behind broken issues.
> I don't think any of us want the search function left out of your meeting. Leaving WYN thinking we are getting used to it in it's current form



Got it


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## ronparise (Aug 29, 2017)

sandkastle4966 said:


> I just want to see all availability at one resort in a given month without having to:
> Select one room at a time (14 options - each room size, standard, deluxe, 2 mobility options)
> Paging forward one month at a time.  it is August, looking for March is 7 month away.
> 
> ...




got it, in fact this is the best summary of the issue Ive seen, so I copied this post and will have it with me when(if) I talk to Wyndham


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## ronparise (Aug 29, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> Also needing to be addressed is point buckets. some owners have wildly negative point amounts for some of their contracts. Another broken thing is resort inventory. I've been periodically looking at the NC resorts and there is exactly NOTHING available for the the next ten months. Others have talked about other resorts with the same issue ( Panama City Beach, Emerald Grand, to name a couple).


Got it, thanks


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## cayman01 (Aug 29, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Got it, thanks


Sapphire Valley and Fairfield Mountains came on line with whatever they did yesterday. Fairfield Harbor is still unavailable so I guess they are working on it.


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## ronparise (Aug 29, 2017)

Bigrob said:


> There are other reasons a reservation may be cancelled - for example to shorten it, thereby freeing up night(s) that would otherwise be wasted. Or possibly to lengthen a reservation by a day (since you can no longer book a single night until inside the cancellation window.)
> 
> It may be that once a number of former users/abusers of "cancel/rebook" are no longer Wyndham owners, the random wait interval, if it has been programmed in, may be reset to zero or a fixed number like before.
> 
> It's hard for me to believe a Wyndham exec would be dumb enough to not know there are "legitimate" reasons for an owner to cancel a reservation with the intention of rebooking at least a portion (or superset) of the original interval.




The ability to modify a reservation is not anything we have ever been able to do without using the same trick  we used to capture discounts ie cancel and rebook

This (the ability to modify an existing reservation) would be a nice thing to have, but it would be something new.... and speaking only for myself, Im not ready to ask for something new until they are able to get the recent bunch of changes incorporated into the system

By the way, I never tried to add or drop days to reservations, If i needed an extra day I often made 3 day reservations and bought a second guest confirmation. I expect that thats the way wyndham wants it  My attitude has aleays been, if you dont like what you have, cancel it and take your chances getting  what you want from available inventory....so I might not be the right guy to ask for such a change. In any case I see it as a change, not a fix, and therefore its going into my 3rd bucket


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## ronparise (Aug 29, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> Sapphire Valley and Fairfield Mountains came on line with whatever they did yesterday. Fairfield Harbor is still unavailable so I guess they are working on it.




fairfield harbor is no longer Wyndham managed... although I know for a fact that there is inventory there still assigned to the fairshare trust.  So perhaps the inventory is there, but not yet loaded into the system.  Its definately something  for management to know about


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## chapjim (Aug 29, 2017)

I would like to be able to see how many Presidential Reserve points I have available.  I can see only total points available, not Regular Points and PresRes Points.


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## ronparise (Aug 29, 2017)

chapjim said:


> I would like to be able to see how many Presidential Reserve points I have available.  I can see only total points available, not Regular Points and PresRes Points.


got it


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## Wolf&Sprite (Aug 29, 2017)

chapjim said:


> I would like to be able to see how many Presidential Reserve points I have available.  I can see only total points available, not Regular Points and PresRes Points.



You can already do this using the Points Calculator.  Just put in a date and it gives you total points and also breaks it down by type of points.  If your date is more than 10 months out it also tells you your ARP points available.


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## dagger1 (Aug 29, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> Also needing to be addressed is point buckets. some owners have wildly negative point amounts for some of their contracts. Another broken thing is resort inventory. I've been periodically looking at the NC resorts and there is exactly NOTHING available for the the next ten months. Others have talked about other resorts with the same issue ( Panama City Beach, Emerald Grand, to name a couple).


I just booked a 3 BR 2018 Spring Break at Emerald Grande, looked like a lot of inventory to me.  Gave up online, nothing but a quick spinning wheel, wouldn't let me book.  Called and they had no problem booking it for me...


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## smurfyblue (Aug 29, 2017)

I understand you'll only talk about what you deem worthy. But just to add reason to this issue, before the recent changes, 1 transaction fee was good for 24 hours, so adjustments within that time frame without additional cost was possible. I also understand that you (and most here) have unlimited RT and don't care. Won't bringing this up be an example of you not being self serving? I have accepted the need to pay the fee for each transaction I just hope making adjustment to what I already paid for is considered. its the rule change that prompts the need for this 'new' request. Not wanting to ask for a rule change, i hope requesting this ability is not deemed unreasonable and considered. Thanks.



ronparise said:


> The ability to modify a reservation is not anything we have ever been able to do without using the same trick  we used to capture discounts ie cancel and rebook
> 
> This (the ability to modify an existing reservation) would be a nice thing to have, but it would be something new.... and speaking only for myself, Im not ready to ask for something new until they are able to get the recent bunch of changes incorporated into the system
> 
> By the way, I never tried to add or drop days to reservations, If i needed an extra day I often made 3 day reservations and bought a second guest confirmation. I expect that thats the way wyndham wants it  My attitude has aleays been, if you dont like what you have, cancel it and take your chances getting  what you want from available inventory....so I might not be the right guy to ask for such a change. In any case I see it as a change, not a fix, and therefore its going into my 3rd bucket


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## ronparise (Aug 29, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> Also needing to be addressed is point buckets. some owners have wildly negative point amounts for some of their contracts. Another broken thing is resort inventory. I've been periodically looking at the NC resorts and there is exactly NOTHING available for the the next ten months. Others have talked about other resorts with the same issue ( Panama City Beach, Emerald Grand, to name a couple).




regarding point buckets... I used to have one with a negative number, but that seems to have been fixed.. today I used the points calculator to see how many points I have available for  2018 reservations  It looks like they missed the  points I had credit pooled before the new rules were announced


smurfyblue said:


> I understand you'll only talk about what you deem worthy. But just to add reason to this issue, before the recent changes, 1 transaction fee was good for 24 hours, so adjustments within that time frame without additional cost was possible. I also understand that you (and most here) have unlimited RT and don't care. Won't bringing this up be an example of you not being self serving? I have accepted the need to pay the fee for each transaction I just hope making adjustment to what I already paid for is considered. its the rule change that prompts the need for this 'new' request. Not wanting to ask for a rule change, i hope requesting this ability is not deemed unreasonable and considered. Thanks.


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## ronparise (Aug 29, 2017)

i dont get unlimited transactions,  The accounts Im working with are not VIP

But thats not the reason Im not bringing up the transaction fee.  The reason Im not bringing up the transaction fee is because that part of the website is working the way it was designed. I dont like paying it anymore than you, but its something that I dont think will change.  I put it in the same category as the credit pool/points deposit and the overlapping reservations guest policy, We just have to get used to the new rule


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## tschwa2 (Aug 29, 2017)

ronparise said:


> i dont get unlimited transactions,  The accounts Im working with are not VIP
> 
> But thats not the reason Im not bringing up the transaction fee.  The reason Im not bringing up the transaction fee is because that part of the website is working the way it was designed. I dont like paying it anymore than you, but its something that I dont think will change.  I put it in the same category as the credit pool/points deposit and the overlapping reservations guest policy, We just have to get used to the new rule



I agree that the point of *this *meeting should be to point out the problems with functionality that is different than the reported way it should work or at least to get the description of the changes clarified if questionable and resulting in different explanations from different guides *and* to point out problems that Wyndham think may be working correctly or fixed but really is still not working.


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## Cyrus24 (Aug 29, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I put it in the same category as the credit pool/points deposit and the overlapping reservations guest policy, We just have to get used to the new rule


I reluctantly accept that you will not talk about rule changes with Wyndham Execs.  Account Access/Accuracy, ARP, Inventory, and Functionality issues are very important items to address.  To those of us that are having severe heartburn over how the rules cause us pain, we need to keep talking those issues up.  At the resorts to prospective buyers, at owner meetings, on the Wyndham facebook page, and here (when appropriate).  The rule changes are taking away from the overall ownership experience and I have to believe that Wyndham is following feedback…..they just don’t quite know what to do with it all.


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## happyhopian (Aug 29, 2017)

The booking system is the critical fix (outside of people being able to log in). Clearly they don't understand the one step at a time system they have in place.

1. Allow the availability to show +/-4 days like before. Car rental, air lines and hotels offer this now. The old site offered this and it was a weeks based system.
2. Allow the monthly window to show all room types with a check mark on/off or filter by room type.
3. Allow the user to select a month, instead of having to flip flip flip through.

These might be considered upgrades, but they are in fact down grades from the last system and they are making the sytem not only difficult to book with but they are slowing down the system and causing reloads and spinning wheels that go on until I log out and back in because I'm causing too many actions.

The upgrade feature isn't working and they are just going to have to accept it because I don't know how you show them but I can attest that I have reservations inside 60 with auto upgrade selected, and the one unit up, same type is available for me to book - same dates and yet it will not auto upgrade. However I can book a 2br and it will give me an immediate upgrade option. That tells me Auto upgrade is NOT working.

Thanks Ron


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## joanncanary (Aug 30, 2017)

Just had to make a whole new account because my original one was LOST!  The VC said that they are having this problem where randomly member's accounts disappear. This needs to be fixed.  I have had no problems since pre-registration. I was one of the lucky ones that was able to get in most of the time. Now today my sign in is lost.  This needs to be corrected.  I was signed in yesterday so there should be a trail of what happened. Not sure if this would be something else to bring up to the "big bosses" but it is unacceptable.


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## Sandy VDH (Aug 30, 2017)

Ron,

My biggest beefs, based on FREQUENCY of usage.....

1) Fix the opportunist search.  I never know my dates, I am just trying to find something in the next 2 months.  They way the old site works was great for my needs, if they could move closer to that light/dark green box presentation it would be better.  The current method by unit by month, and change anything go back to the current month is impossible.  I actually find it easier to do 32 search, for every 2 day period in a month. That is actually faster than looking at detail for 1 resort, 1 unit type, 1 month at a time. So to see 2 months worth I now have to do up to 64 search to see what took 1 search in the past.  

2) Either make the darn auto upgrade work as it should, or give us back the ability to do an instant upgrade from an EXISTING reservation, like the old system did.  I think only getting upgrades at the time of booking is NOT how they new system was intented.  When there are opportunities existing for an upgrade, but that are reservation NOT getting those upgrades = broken to me.  Fix it, or give back our ability to upgrade a unit ourselves.  

3) Inventory just needs to be right, and needs to be loaded.  This is a huge impact on ability to book. PERIOD.

4) Points are still going back to the wrong buckets.  I am hoping this is just a hangover from reservations made in the old system not being classified or identified correctly in the new, but if NOT points need to be correct and in the right buckets.


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## paxsarah (Aug 30, 2017)

I noticed this in another thread and I thought it might be something applicable to Ron's conversation with Wyndham.



wjappraise said:


> I was able to login.  Only difference I see is that it now warns me I have overlapping reservations and 48 hours to fix that.
> 
> So my guess is they revamped the website and added this feature, or activated it again.  Interesting priorities they have.  They don't work on access, missing points, errors on reservations.  But they fix the auto cancellation feature.  It's time for a coup!



I think the issue is, is it working? Is it not working? If it hasn't been working and suddenly Wyndham activates the automatic cancellation of reservations, will this affect a whole slew of owners who had either grown complacent or who didn't realize they had reservations out of compliance because they weren't warned during the few months this hasn't been working? While I don't think anyone has cried any tears at the prospect that these automatic cancellations haven't been happening, to turn this feature on with no/little warning could create another avalanche of ill will.


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## bnoble (Aug 30, 2017)

Cyrus24 said:


> To those of us that are having severe heartburn over how the rules cause us pain, we need to keep talking those issues up.


You can, but you should do so with the understanding that for the most part, that pain was intentional.


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## Braindead (Aug 30, 2017)

Sandy VDH said:


> Ron,
> 
> My biggest beefs, based on FREQUENCY of usage.....
> 
> ...


You and a few others posted that searching different ways would give you different amounts of points needed for reservations.
One way gave the VIP discount and the other way gave you no discount. I believe searching region verses individual resort.
If it's still that way. That's another broken not working properly


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## ecwinch (Sep 1, 2017)

Sandy VDH said:


> Ron,
> 
> My biggest beefs, based on FREQUENCY of usage.....
> 
> ...



This is a pretty good jumping off point IMHO. 

I would add - "I should not have to reselect the resort in order to run a search with different dates or with the same dates."


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## Sandy VDH (Sep 1, 2017)

ecwinch said:


> This is a pretty good jumping off point IMHO.
> 
> I would add - "I should not have to reselect the resort in order to run a search with different dates or with the same dates."



ANYTHING to improve searches would be welcome.  This having to reselect the same resort in order to do another search is just another example of crapping programming.

Make search work,  period.  Make search work more effectively for those who are looking for any unit in a region on any date in a month or two window, that would help immensely.


----------



## WhiskeyJack (Sep 1, 2017)

This is something I have experienced and I believe should work differently.  When booking within the VIP window, if an instant upgrade is available it should allow you to choose the type of next larger unit available.  For example, if a 1 BD is available and a 2 BD Deluxe, a 2 BD Lock Off and a 2 BD Presidential are all also available, you should have the choice of all three 2 BD unit types to instant upgrade to.  Instead the current system only presents one choice, and I believe always the lowest point total choice.


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## ronparise (Sep 2, 2017)

I had my meeting and got the BIG question answered, at least it was my big question and I didnt have to drive to Orlando to do it

My big question was.. Do the executives have any idea whats going on?.. Do they know the website is a mess, and that some owners cant log in, that ARP dosent work, and that the auto upgrade feature dosent work. And do they know the search function dosent measure up to what anyone would expect Or  Are they being told by their staff that everything is OK.  Had the silos that got them (and me) into trouble last summer been torn down or had they been re enforced. 

 I didnt have to ask for the meeting, they asked me. You see they follow TUG pretty closely..They saw that I had threatened to sit in their lobby until I got a meeting. so when I didnt call, and I didnt show up...they contacted me.   

FYI here is what I sent to them ahead of time as a suggested agenda. I spent a little time at the beginning of this to establish credibility.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4kg0ugd4s9ulnjp/wyndham meeting agenda.docx?dl=0

This was a conference call. the wyndham folks were all in a conference room in Orlando, I was at home.  I usually dont like that kind arrangement (Im old, or old school) and prefer to meet face to face but several of the people present had met me (and me them) in the past, so we knew what each other looked like. As I say,  its not what I would have liked, but it worked, i think.   The top dog I wanted to talk to wasnt there, but he was the guy that asked that the meeting happen. And it was his "right hand man (woman) that actually contacted me, but it was at his request.. she ran the show.. also present was the person I would describe as my "handler" we have been working together since my accounts were suspended last summer, through all our negotiations up to our agreement.  I may suffer from Patty Hurst syndrome, but I think we have come to a place of mutual respect. So now I know she is still monitoring TUG for more than just watching that I dont violate the non disclosure terms of our agreement.  Also present were a couple of members of the Web Team. 

So as it turned out there really was no need for the meeting.  They know exactly where the new website has missed the mark and they are working on fixes and changes, but they are satisfied with some of the things we see as problems (the big pictures for example) And they arent even thinking of modifying the new rules.  That day may come, but not yet. 

regarding ARP they know some resorts, in some accounts cant make ARP reservations, They are actually withholding some inventory, so that it will be available at the 10 month mark to try to compensate

regarding auto upgrades.  They really do think its working, and believe the issues we see arent bugs, they are features.  But they agree the "rules"--what gets upgraded into what, needs some tweaking.. and they are working on it.  They also believe that many of our complaints about upgrades are not really complaints, but rather it just us trying to figure out the pattern. ie what upgrades into what, and when do cancellations come back. Although they didnt say it I get the sense that thats they way they want it.  

regarding log in issues.. They know thats a problem and they are dealing with them one at a time.  So if you have a log in issue, call

Regarding the search function. They know, and they are working on it to make the so called opportunistic search possible.  I used myself an example. Im retired so I can pick up and go on a minutes notice.. and there are 10 resorts within 3 hours of my home and another 30 within a days drive (a long day in some cases, but still a days drive) If I want to get away in the next couple of days to somewhere, i dont much care where, I used to be able to find something pretty quicky... I cant now.. They are working on improvements, The one they mentioned was a drop down box for months in the calendar search and no more reverting to the current month. But I also expect to see the ability to search a few days one side or the other from your target date before too long

Regarding the new rules, get used to them
regarding the pictures, get used to them too


I may have missed something here Ill repost if I remember anything


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## Avislo (Sep 2, 2017)

Congratulations on your meeting.  My Midtown New York reservation that was not canceling cancelled when I attempted it this morning.


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## nicemann (Sep 2, 2017)

I king of figured they had to have some higher management watching this board.  They would be stupid if they did not have someone watching and reporting what owners are saying.


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## Braindead (Sep 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I had my meeting and got the BIG question answered, at least it was my big question and I didnt have to drive to Orlando to do it
> 
> My big question was.. Do the executives have any idea whats going on?.. Do they know the website is a mess, and that some owners cant log in, that ARP dosent work, and that the auto upgrade feature dosent work. And do they know the search function dosent measure up to what anyone would expect Or  Are they being told by their staff that everything is OK.  Had the silos that got them (and me) into trouble last summer been torn down or had they been re enforced.
> 
> ...


Thanks again  Ron!!! Thank You to OUR BODs and Wyndham Executives for willingly holding a meeting. Thank You for acknowledging our concerns and frustrations. Improvements to the website seem to be nonexistent or very slow in coming. Hopefully us the owners will start to see a lot of the improvements to the search function soon as I see that as the biggest issue as long as you can login.

Ron did they specifically say if a 1 bedroom deluxe is going to upgrade to 1 bedroom Presidential ?

Thank you to all Tuggers !! Strength in numbers!! We have a voice Wyndham hears and respects!!


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## chapjim (Sep 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I had my meeting and got the BIG question answered, at least it was my big question and I didnt have to drive to Orlando to do it
> 
> My big question was.. Do the executives have any idea whats going on?.. Do they know the website is a mess, and that some owners cant log in, that ARP dosent work, and that the auto upgrade feature dosent work. And do they know the search function dosent measure up to what anyone would expect Or  Are they being told by their staff that everything is OK.  Had the silos that got them (and me) into trouble last summer been torn down or had they been re enforced.
> 
> ...



I think the only real surprise here is that they like the huge photos enough to buck the almost universal view that they are useless and only slow down the website.  Once in sales, always in sales.

Thanks for carrying the water for the rest of us.  You've been a worthy representative.


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## kaljor (Sep 2, 2017)

So the Reader's Digest Condensed Version is that they acknowledge problems with Log Ins and ARP,
think the problem with Automatic Upgrades is user error, and they will work to restore the
past search functionality.  

I hope they are successful in explaining to the owners exactly how the upgrades should work, and
I really hope the search process improves.  And I'm willing to give it time.

Like Chapjim, I'm surprised they think the big pictures are a good idea. Some big Wyndham
poobah must have suggested this feature and everyone's afraid to tell him how annoying it is!

Overall, a worthwhile conference call.  Thanks.


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## Sandi Bo (Sep 2, 2017)

Pretty much confirming yes, they are aware and no, they don't care. 

Except the continued arrogance.  Upgrades and cancellations are two different things.  What a shame they think one affects the other.  Shows they don't really understand, and are so sure that they do, that the hope of really fixing stuff is dashed.

Thanks for your time and efforts and for reporting back to us, Ron.  I suppose I should say thank you WYN,  also. If this is how upgrades will work moving forward, I'm okay with that


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## Braindead (Sep 2, 2017)

Sandi Bo said:


> I suppose I should say thank you WYN,  also. If this is how upgrades will work moving forward, I'm okay with that


To clarify why I thanked our BODs - WYN Execs. They took time to hear the owners input.
The purpose of the meeting was to find out if the executives are actually aware of what we as owners see as problems with the website. The answer we received is yes they are aware. For that one reason I believe the meeting was a success. The feedback function of the website or surveys are never read by executives.

Do I still think WYNs IT department was incompetent in developing and rolling out Voyager? YES
As I stated before improvements to Voyager so far have been nonexistent or very slow coming. Hopefully we will start to see major changes soon.


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## ronparise (Sep 2, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Ron did they specifically say if a 1 bedroom deluxe is going to upgrade to 1 bedroom Presidential ?



They specifically said it is not an upgrade to move from a one bedroom into a one bedroom


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## ronparise (Sep 2, 2017)

nicemann said:


> I king of figured they had to have some higher management watching this board.  They would be stupid if they did not have someone watching and reporting what owners are saying.



If there is one thing that Wyndham is not.  And that's stupid


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## ronparise (Sep 2, 2017)

Sandi Bo said:


> Pretty much confirming yes, they are aware and no, they don't care.
> 
> Except the continued arrogance.  Upgrades and cancellations are two different things.  What a shame they think one affects the other.  Shows they don't really understand, and are so sure that they do, that the hope of really fixing stuff is dashed.
> 
> Thanks for your time and efforts and for reporting back to us, Ron.  I suppose I should say thank you WYN,  also. If this is how upgrades will work moving forward, I'm okay with that



1) if you took from what I wrote that what I wrote is confirmation that Wyndham dosent care and that they are arrogant than I have to re write it. That's not the sense at all that I got from this meeting or from any interaction I've had with them in the past

2) Up grades do result in cancellations. I concentrated on this scenario. If my 2 bedroom is upgraded to a three, my two bedroom ought to become someone else's upgrade and their one bedroom ought to become available. My question was, why dosent that happen. And the answer was computer speak that I don't understand and don't care to understand. But as I understood it, the unit that is upgraded from (what I call the effective cancellation) is held until the next round of upgrades happens. Oh and I don't care about that timing either. They understood and I ageeed that the only reason some here wanted to know this stuff is to figure out patterns and not said, but understood was that Wyndham dosent want us to figure out the patterns. And I get that. Understanding the patterns is what allowed some of us to game the system to our advantage. Bottom line,  the auto upgrade thing is, they believe, working. They are looking to better define what exactly an upgrade is but that's, again in their opinion, and in my words a "tweak"

Now speaking only for myself. I don't see the upgrade thing as important at all. If I need a two bedroom, I'm going to reserve it from the get go. I'm not going to bank on getting the upgrade. For me all an upgrade from a one bed to a two, does for me is to give me a place to store suitcases and ice chests

3) as far as the need to fix stuff goes the only area I found where they know they need a fix, is ARP and they say that they are working on it. I'll be following up with an email listing the resorts I'm aware of, where there is an issue


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## tschwa2 (Sep 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> 1)
> 
> Now speaking only for myself. I don't see the upgrade thing as important at all. If I need a two bedroom, I'm going to reserve it from the get go. I'm not going to bank on getting the upgrade. For me all an upgrade from a one bed to a two, does for me is to give me a place to store suitcases and ice chests



I think many owners are frustrated when they requested an upgrade and see one available but there reservation remains un changed.  Maybe its a silver owner who doesn't want to waste a transaction credit to cancel and rebook or maybe it is within 14 days and the owner can't cancel.  

There are typically 5 of traveling.  I often book a 3 bedroom but if one isn't available, I will book a 2 BR.  If I am eligible for a 3 BR and one is available and it doesn't upgrade that is a problem and things like that still are happening.


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## chapjim (Sep 2, 2017)

We shouldn't have to justify wanting an upgrade --it's something I paid to acquire and pay every month to maintain.  I may be happy with a 2BR unit but if a 3BR or a Presidential unit is available, I'll be even happier with more space and/or more luxury.

My wife and I have stayed in 4BR Presidential units, just the two of us, and I couldn't care less what anyone thinks about it.

Ron didn't say what their reasoning was for not considering 1BR Deluxe to 1BR Pres an upgrade.  Seems like if it costs more points, it's an upgrade.


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## ronparise (Sep 2, 2017)

tschwa2 said:


> I think many owners are frustrated when they requested an upgrade and see one available but there reservation remains un changed.  Maybe its a silver owner who doesn't want to waste a transaction credit to cancel and rebook or maybe it is within 14 days and the owner can't cancel.
> 
> There are typically 5 of traveling.  I often book a 3 bedroom but if one isn't available, I will book a 2 BR.  If I am eligible for a 3 BR and one is available and it doesn't upgrade that is a problem and things like that still are happening.




makes sense, I was just offering my opinion... and I didnt share that with Wyndham


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## ronparise (Sep 2, 2017)

chapjim said:


> We shouldn't have to justify wanting an upgrade --it's something I paid to acquire and pay every month to maintain.  I may be happy with a 2BR unit but if a 3BR or a Presidential unit is available, I'll be even happier with more space and/or more luxury.
> 
> My wife and I have stayed in 4BR Presidential units, just the two of us, and I couldn't care less what anyone thinks about it.
> 
> Ron didn't say what their reasoning was for not considering 1BR Deluxe to 1BR Pres an upgrade.  Seems like if it costs more points, it's an upgrade.




I agree reserve whatever you want,  no justification needed. Just dont count on getting the upgrade.  Im not talking about the initial reservation. and Im not talking about the guy that has the points to reserve the extra space and luxury.   Im talking about the guy that reserves a one bedroom when he needs two  expecting to getting the upgrade.  He has no reason to complain if he dosen't get it.. As I said above he should have reserved the 2 bedroom from the beginning

A one bedroom to a one bedroom is not an upgrade... The rule  seems to be it has to be more bedrooms to be an upgrade and that makes sense to me  I sure wouldnt want a 2 bedroom deluxe, at bonnet creek, (sleeps 8), upgraded to 2 bedroom presidential, (sleeps 4).. Sure 4 people in my party would get the extra luxury, but the other 4 would be sleeping on the floor not to mention we would be violating the occupancy limits


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## Braindead (Sep 2, 2017)

The meeting might of been a bigger success than any of us will ever know. Wyndham will never admit implementing an idea or change to the website as a result of Rons meeting. Any improvements would be appreciated.
They could even make a change such as allowing owners to modify a reservation by adding nights without changing the rules. Wyndham might think allowing owners to drop nights might leave too many orphaned nights.


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## Braindead (Sep 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> A one bedroom to a one bedroom is not an upgrade... The rule  seems to be it has to be more bedrooms to be an upgrade and that makes sense to me  I sure wouldnt want a 2 bedroom deluxe, at bonnet creek, (sleeps 8), upgraded to 2 bedroom presidential, (sleeps 4).. Sure 4 people in my party would get the extra luxury, but the other 4 would be sleeping on the floor not to mention we would be violating the occupancy limits


Your example is exactly why there should be drop box for individual owners to choose what they want to accept as an upgrade.
If I have a 1 bedroom Presidential I don't want a 2 bedroom deluxe as an upgrade. I want a 2 bedroom Presidential and should be given the choice.


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## wjappraise (Sep 2, 2017)

I think it's indicative of the arrogance of Wyndham that we applaud their willingness to condescend to hear concerns from owners.  How far our expectations have fallen for those who should be greatly concerned about the end users opinions.  Oh wow, those busy executives listened for 20 minutes to a speaker phone while sipping cucumber water!   And this only took four months from the rollout of the worst new website in decades.  Cast my vote for "customer service of the year!"   Sarcasm intended.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## am1 (Sep 2, 2017)

As someone that is no longer an owner I wish everyone the best.  How is the rental market these days?  I have been out for 2 months but it seems like 2 years with all these new changes that I never worried about.  

We will miss the resorts the most.  But I will miss finding out the patterns whatever they may be.


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## wjappraise (Sep 2, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Your example is exactly why there should be drop box for individual owners to choose what they want to accept as an upgrade.
> If I have a 1 bedroom Presidential I don't want a 2 bedroom deluxe as an upgrade. I want a 2 bedroom Presidential and should be given the choice.



BD - maybe it's different for mine as I am a PR owner, but it does allow me to choose bigger room or Presidential room.  It just doesn't work. EVER.  I have not had one auto upgrade work in spite of dozens of times it should have.  The only upgrades that work is if the upgrade room is available at the initial reservation.   If it is not, but comes available later it has NEVER upgraded automatically for me.  

The fact the big wigs think it is working speaks to the silo issue being alive and well.  And you can chalk that up to lack of communication, indifference, incompetence, or disdain for ownership base.  Can you come up with any other reason that is positive?  None of them are excusable. And Wyndham should be ashamed.  But they are not, not even a little.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ronparise (Sep 2, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> I think it's indicative of the arrogance of Wyndham that we applaud their willingness to condescend to hear concerns from owners.  How far our expectations have fallen for those who should be greatly concerned about the end users opinions.  Oh wow, those busy executives listened for 20 minutes to a speaker phone while sipping cucumber water!   And this only took four months from the rollout of the worst new website in decades.  Cast my vote for "customer service of the year!"   Sarcasm intended.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I can't say for sure that they were sipping on cucumber water. But the last time I was in their building there was a jug of lemon water in the lobby

I for one am not applauding them for talking to me. But neither am i condemning them because they haven communicated as well as they could have

What I wanted to do with this exercise is to demonstrate that they do know what's going on; or they don't

I have convinced myself that they do know, and that they care about what we say. I'm also convinced that they will do what they think is best for the club even if I don't agree


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## wjappraise (Sep 2, 2017)

am1 said:


> As someone that is no longer an owner I wish everyone the best.  How is the rental market these days?  I have been out for 2 months but it seems like 2 years with all these new changes that I never worried about.
> 
> We will miss the resorts the most.  But I will miss finding out the patterns whatever they may be.



Adam.  Good to hear from you.  I believe the rental market will survive but will be altered appreciably.  My usage is almost entirely family and friends. With an occasional posting on RedWeek.  So my model is far different from your prior one.  

The cancelled rooms not coming back with consistency will essentially end the practice of holding rooms and then rebooking at 60 days.  It will likely spawn a market from owners who find gems at 60 days or less and speculate by booking and offering for rent.  

For those of us who used the 60 day window to generate great discounts, those days are over.  I have to tell my family and friends that the days of two bedroom units for $100 a night are over.  Which isn't all bad.  The low cost rooms had reached a point of stupidity.  I remember a posting here that a potential renter wanted a two bedroom unit ocean view during spring break but did not want to pay over $500 for 7 nights.  That is just ridiculous.  I will not miss that type of potential renter.  

But the rental market will adapt. And owners who can't adapt will get out.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wjappraise (Sep 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I can't say for sure that they were sipping on cucumber water. But the last time I was in their building there was a jug of lemon water in the lobby
> 
> I for one am not applauding them for talking to me. But neither am i condemning them because they haven communicated as well as they could have
> 
> ...



Thanks Ron.  

Please know I applaud YOUR willingness to bring our concerns.  And I'm happy they got heard. It just seems ridiculous that we should applaud executives for doing their jobs.  Ones that compensate them better than what you or I make (prior to retirement).  And the fact they have no idea how the website features actually work (or don't work) is discouraging.  Wyndham should give the executives accounts and let them try to make auto upgrade work.  They would soon find it does not work.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Marathoner (Sep 2, 2017)

chapjim said:


> My wife and I have stayed in 4BR Presidential units, just the two of us, and I couldn't care less what anyone thinks about it.



The desire to retain your rights for a 4 bedroom upgrade for the two of you speaks volumes.


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## CO skier (Sep 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I had my meeting ...


One thing is certain, that single phone conference proved more productive and informative than all the sarcastic, new website TUG posts of the last four months ... combined.


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## Braindead (Sep 2, 2017)

VIPs have lost their free upgrades!!
It's been replaced with auto more bedrooms.
Find me an owner that doesn't think a deluxe to Presidential unit is not an upgrade. Why does a Presidential unit take more points if it's not an upgrade.
This is like an airline co telling a couple that are VIPs we can no longer offer free upgrades unless there is 3 seats for you!


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## Braindead (Sep 2, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> I think it's indicative of the arrogance of Wyndham that we applaud their willingness to condescend to hear concerns from owners.  How far our expectations have fallen for those who should be greatly concerned about the end users opinions.  Oh wow, those busy executives listened for 20 minutes to a speaker phone while sipping cucumber water!   And this only took four months from the rollout of the worst new website in decades.  Cast my vote for "customer service of the year!"   Sarcasm intended.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you think Wyndham is bad. Car companies have had their vehicle owners that even died with faulty equipment that they wouldn't admit to having a problem.
Try getting a meeting with a handful of those owners families to discuss the problems. It didn't happen. It took attorneys and federal government


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## wjappraise (Sep 2, 2017)

Braindead said:


> If you think Wyndham is bad. Car companies have had their vehicle owners that even died with faulty equipment that they wouldn't admit to having a problem.
> Try getting a meeting with a handful of those owners families to discuss the problems. It didn't happen. It took attorneys and federal government



Wow.  Someone needs some roughage.


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## am1 (Sep 2, 2017)

CO skier said:


> One thing is certain, that single phone conference proved more productive and informative than all the sarcastic, new website TUG posts of the last four months ... combined.



No proof of that yet.  Some may think that things will not change based on that one phone call.


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## ecwinch (Sep 2, 2017)

How far off the mark am I in thinking the web team did the majority of the talking and their most common response to your concerns was "that is the way it was designed to work."

The "its not a bug it is a feature"... is the oldest cliche in the industry. Good software developers never make features look like bugs. Only unintuitive software design suffers that fate.

Kudos on the meeting.


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## ronparise (Sep 2, 2017)

ecwinch said:


> How far off the mark am I in thinking the web team did the majority of the talking and their most common response to your concerns was "that is the way it was designed to work."
> 
> The "its not a bug it is a feature"... is the oldest cliche in the industry. Good software developers never make features look like bugs. Only unintuitive software design suffers that fate.
> 
> Kudos on the meeting.




way off, and when they did say something they pretty much understood and said they were working on improvements


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## wjappraise (Sep 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> way off, and when they did say something they pretty much understood and said they were working on improvements



Thanks Ron.  

Observations about "silo" issues?   


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## wjappraise (Sep 2, 2017)

CO skier said:


> One thing is certain, that single phone conference proved more productive and informative than all the sarcastic, new website TUG posts of the last four months ... combined.



But I could make the case that the grousing here prompted the phone conference.   And that is more productive than spewing the line that the new website is great because it gets rid of those meddling mega renters .... sound familiar CO?  


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## wjappraise (Sep 2, 2017)

Braindead said:


> VIPs have lost their free upgrades!!
> It's been replaced with auto more bedrooms.
> Find me an owner that doesn't think a deluxe to Presidential unit is not an upgrade. Why does a Presidential unit take more points if it's not an upgrade.
> This is like an airline co telling a couple that are VIPs we can no longer offer free upgrades unless there is 3 seats for you!



I think you are right on BD.  It should be an upgrade option at 30 days.  And I would hope as Wyn attempts to salve our collective rashes they will implement the upgrade feature you outline.  

If Wyndham could hire some owners (or prior owners) to work in corporate this type of issue could be nipped in the bud.  Can you imagine Adam and Ron working together with Wyndham corporate?  My head might explode.  


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## CO skier (Sep 2, 2017)

am1 said:


> No proof of that yet.  Some may think that things will not change based on that one phone call.


It was productive in that we know where Wyndham stands on a number of points and clues at to where they may stand on other points.  I doubt that much beyond what was indicated in that post destined to change, will change.

After reading the phone conference summary, this is how I put a few data points together for upgrades, as an example.  (This is all pure conjecture).

The auto-upgrade feature was turned-off when it upgraded to a lot of phantom inventory.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...eneral-discussion.256063/page-47#post-2013504

Meanwhile, posts on TUG helpfully pointed out that cancel/rebook would still work under auto-upgrades.  If Wyndham intended something beyond just a convenient upgrade feature, auto-upgrade was inadequate.

http://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?...program-guidelines.254676/page-5#post-1994560


The new guidelines state, "This exciting enhancement will automatically upgrade your existing reservations to the next largest unit if it becomes available during your upgrade window!"  It would be embarrassing to just eliminate the new automatic upgrade feature, so auto-upgrades exists but remains turned off.

Wyndham looks at what is occurring with real time inventory.  If inventory is the distressed inventory (intended?) for VIP discounts, it will be in inventory.  Owners are manually upgrading to this inventory by booking the larger unit at a discount, then cancelling the smaller unit.  Owners can manually upgrade to Presidential units with the same number of bedrooms, but using their VIP discount.  It may not be the original auto upgrade intended, but it may be enough of an upgrade feature to keep auto-upgrade turned off until a workable automatic upgrade feature can be developed.

It would be easy for Wyndham to think that owners who cancel a reservation, cancel it because they are done with it.   Why would it matter to the cancelling owner when or if it returns to inventory, unless they are trying to determine how to game the new auto-upgrade?  If the Wyndham folks managing the new website and guidelines know about cancelled WorldMark reservations going to the waitlist before returning to inventory, it would only reinforce the fact that immediately returning cancellations to inventory is not necessary.

It is a complete guess, but I think the current not really automatic upgrade feature will be sop for a while.


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## CO skier (Sep 2, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> But I could make the case that the grousing here prompted the phone conference.   And that is more productive than spewing the line that the new website is great because it gets rid of those meddling mega renters .... sound familiar CO?


Reading between the lines, Wyndham seems to think so.


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## ilya (Sep 2, 2017)

am1 said:


> No proof of that yet.  Some may think that things will not change based on that one phone call.



I agree, they did not need Ron or a conference call. They did this just to appease him and all TUGGERS.. All the information they need is laid out very nicely here on TUG. No evidence things will change.


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## 55plus (Sep 2, 2017)

Other than working out some of the bugs in the new feces laden website the main issues are here to stay. Wyndham deliberately designed and developed the website to benefit them, which in turn hurts the owners. What use to take seconds to search for availability now can take a hour, give or take, depending how many types units at the resort. Wyndham now controls upgrades so if a upgrade is available Wyndham will determine if you are worthy of it or if Wyndham will keep it for their use. VIP Benefits some owners paid a lot of money for are deteriorating while some are being controlled by Wyndham, such as upgrades. Our only recourse is to spread the word to potential buyers about how Wyndham screws the owners when at the resorts, Hopefully it will hurt their sales, which may get their attention. 

Some on TUG tend to disagree with my take on Wyndham's new excrement filled website. I believe those who disagree with my take on it are either in the tank with Wyndham for some reason, are Wyndham employees or hired yes men paid to counter our complaints. I'll eat my words when the major issues that hinder our ability to efficiently search for availability are corrected and the VIP owners control their reservation upgrades again.


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## chapjim (Sep 2, 2017)

ronparise said:


> A one bedroom to a one bedroom is not an upgrade... The rule  seems to be it has to be more bedrooms to be an upgrade and that makes sense to me  I sure wouldnt want a 2 bedroom deluxe, at bonnet creek, (sleeps 8), upgraded to 2 bedroom presidential, (sleeps 4)..



But, a 1BR Deluxe to a 1BR Presidential SHOULD be an upgrade and is considered as such by just about everyone here.  Wyndham is the outlier.  2BR Deluxe to 2BR Pres is another matter.

There are options for upgrading now.  It shouldn't be too hard to create radio buttons that would allow an owner to deselect the 2BR Deluxe -> 2BR Pres situation.  Well, maybe it would be too hard for Wyndham's IT folks.


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## comicbookman (Sep 2, 2017)

55plus said:


> Other than working out some of the bugs in the new feces laden website the main issues are here to stay. Wyndham deliberately designed and developed the website to benefit them, which in turn hurts the owners. What use to take seconds to search for availability now can take a hour, give or take, depending how many types units at the resort. Wyndham now controls upgrades so if a upgrade is available Wyndham will determine if you are worthy of it or if Wyndham will keep it for their use. VIP Benefits some owners paid a lot of money for are deteriorating while some are being controlled by Wyndham, such as upgrades. Our only recourse is to spread the word to potential buyers about how Wyndham screws the owners when at the resorts, Hopefully it will hurt their sales, which may get their attention.
> 
> Some on TUG tend to disagree with my take on Wyndham's new excrement filled website. I believe those who disagree with my take on it are either in the tank with Wyndham for some reason, are Wyndham employees or hired yes men paid to counter our complaints. I'll eat my words when the major issues that hinder our ability to efficiently search for availability are corrected and the VIP owners control their reservation upgrades again.



It doesn't benefit Wyndham if it generates more calls, as those cost $$$.  I have never worked for Wyndham and am not in the tank.  I am not pleased, as a VIP member with the new rules.  I am an IT professional.  I recognize poor programming when I see it.  The rule changes would make sense as a way to cut down on renting, IF the website actually functioned properly.  There is ZERO evidence that Wyndham is benefitting through rentals due to the website problems.  That is just a paranoid conspiracy theory.  Your ranting is not helpful, which I believe is TUGGS purpose.


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## chapjim (Sep 3, 2017)

Marathoner said:


> The desire to retain your rights for a 4 bedroom upgrade for the two of you speaks volumes.



I was exercising a right I already had and paid good money for.  It was available and I took it.  It was three nights that someone else didn't want and apparently no one else did or it wouldn't have been available.

They are pretty nice units.  I'd do it again.


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## vacationhopeful (Sep 3, 2017)

As for the BIG PICTURES ... they are great for novice Wyndham users or the sales staff. It is a like giving them COLOR TV verses a B&W screen. It is all about SELLING their product ... large living space, pools, palm trees and water in pools or oceans. It also means EVERY owner is hindered in skipping thru their booking engine. Wyndham owners are captive users ... we have to USE it but Wyndham does not want it to be slick and fast for us to look, book, get our vacations booked aka as 1,2,3 inside of a couple of a minute or 2.

Yes, those pictures are annoying to a regular user.... which is anyone who had been on their website TWICE in their lifetime.

But lets help Wyndham with their pictures ... ask WHERE that resort is (label the pictures, Wyndham); point out the 'out of date' pictures (they love changing bedspreads); label the presidential units; if you show SNOW, show Summer or mud season; if people are shown ... be sure they LOOK like owners and not models. So, if the table is set and there is just 1 item NOT in the standard kitchen (like the vase for the fresh flowers ... complain!). The 'plants' in the unit ... or the OCEAN front view  ... include the right mix of NON-OCEAN front view inside the resort. Really .. not every unit faces the pool, the ocean, the mountains ... but parking lots, elevators, towers/balconies next door. Oh, and include some 'guest' types we see all the time ... real owners who are not cherry picked. And be sure to include those signs for hot dogs (prices with the 15 minutes of service time .. not all day long). And make sure, every picture showing a 'fee service' had the price list shown or implied along with days & hours of service. Yes, there are resorts where the TIKI Bar is listed as opened a few select days BUT seems not staffed or opened those days or even ANY day.

And IF the Wyndham call center employees are USING the exact WEB site we do .... what a WASTE of employee time as the spinning wheel spins.


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## Joe33426 (Sep 3, 2017)

I guess don't find the pictures that objectionable, especially with so many other things to complain about the website.   I must have ignored the pictures over the last few months, but have to admit that I've spent much time looking for reservations.  I search for exactly what I need now, no random searches.  I guess if I was on dial up or didn't have high-speed access, the pictures would be a bigger deal.  

Although Wyndham owners are captive users of the reservation system, I think that Wyndham sees us as potential sales opportunities, otherwise they wouldn't push so hard to get us into updates and sales presentations.   Which really surprises me to this date, since they know that all my points are resale and I've never made a retail purchase.  

So, I think it makes total sense from a corporate standpoint to "dazzle" us with pretty pictures to try to get us to buy more.   Why label the truth behind the pictures when they lie about everything else?  If you just buy some points, you can have the same "lifestyle" as the folks in the pictures.


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## vacationhopeful (Sep 3, 2017)

Joe ... I am on internet via the cable company. Not dial up. "Truth in advertising" is one thought ... who travels with vases for flowers? I can't think of ever going into a timeshare unit to visit anyone to FIND live flowers in the unit ... plastic flowers or plants are sometimes in the model unit... usually, dusty or aged.

As for the dazzle .. no one expects to find a model family living in the unit they check into .. but I do expect to find the furniture, wall pictures, china, furniture, etc.

But I expect a website where I am not watching the "spinning wheel of death" to loading 'the model family' in room after room of furniture and all over the resort. I went there to BOOK a vacation .. not to sit and wait for the website to load time and time again.


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## 55plus (Sep 3, 2017)

comicbookman said:


> It doesn't benefit Wyndham if it generates more calls, as those cost $$$.  I have never worked for Wyndham and am not in the tank.  I am not pleased, as a VIP member with the new rules.  I am an IT professional.  I recognize poor programming when I see it.  The rule changes would make sense as a way to cut down on renting, IF the website actually functioned properly.  There is ZERO evidence that Wyndham is benefitting through rentals due to the website problems.  That is just a paranoid conspiracy theory.  Your ranting is not helpful, which I believe is TUGGS purpose.


A VCs are paid the same whether they receive 10 calls an hour or 10000. They are paid by the hour so increasing the number of calls/complaints is not costing Wyndham $$$. That was obvious when the wait time went into hours and when the VC lines closed for the night, they closed for the night with owners still on hold. As for evidence that Wyndham is benefiting, look at Wyndham Extra Holidays' inventory. Every reservation on there benefits Wyndham whether made by an owner or Wyndham itself. It's okay for Wyndham to rent but not owners doing it themselves. And you don't see a conflict of interest? #Conflict of Interest. 

I have more insight on the subject, but I gotta go - time for church. I'll be back. . .


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## markb53 (Sep 3, 2017)

Joe33426 said:


> I guess don't find the pictures that objectionable, especially with so many other things to complain about the website.   I must have ignored the pictures over the last few months, but have to admit that I've spent much time looking for reservations.  I search for exactly what I need now, no random searches.  I guess if I was on dial up or didn't have high-speed access, the pictures would be a bigger deal.



I don't really mind the pictures either. They load pretty much instantly on my computer and my iPhone. It's the rest of the site that is slow as molasses. I spend a lot of time watching that spinner all over the site but not while pictures are loding. If they could optimize the rest of the site to run as fast as the pictures load for me, I'd be happy.


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## ronparise (Sep 3, 2017)

Braindead said:


> VIPs have lost their free upgrades!!
> It's been replaced with auto more bedrooms.
> Find me an owner that doesn't think a deluxe to Presidential unit is not an upgrade. Why does a Presidential unit take more points if it's not an upgrade.
> This is like an airline co telling a couple that are VIPs we can no longer offer free upgrades unless there is 3 seats for you!




Im not a VIP anymore, but if I was, I dont see an move to a presidential unit an upgrade
a two bedroom deluxe at Bonnet Creek (sleeps 8) to a two bedroom presidential (sleeps 4) is a step down in my book


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## Joe33426 (Sep 3, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> Joe ... I am on internet via the cable company. Not dial up. "Truth in advertising" is one thought ... who travels with vases for flowers? I can't think of ever going into a timeshare unit to visit anyone to FIND live flowers in the unit ... plastic flowers or plants are sometimes in the model unit... usually, dusty or aged.
> 
> As for the dazzle .. no one expects to find a model family living in the unit they check into .. but I do expect to find the furniture, wall pictures, china, furniture, etc.
> 
> But I expect a website where I am not watching the "spinning wheel of death" to loading 'the model family' in room after room of furniture and all over the resort. I went there to BOOK a vacation .. not to sit and wait for the website to load time and time again.



Linda, I totally agree it's false advertising, but isn't a lot of the timeshare sales industry full of lies.  As I admitted, I haven't really been on the website that much, so perhaps if I were using the website more, I'd be equally annoyed.   

Maybe these website pictures might be a good source of a future lawsuit from a new owner looking to rescind after the allowed period of time.  "Your honor, WYN sold me a timeshare that really doesn't exist.  When I went to the resort, I had a parking lot view, my next door neighbor weren't models, and no flowers on the dinning room table".  Unlike oral assertions made during sales presentations that don't hold WYN contractually obligated, maybe these pictures could actually cause WYN a legal problem.  For example, I recently booked a stay at Sundara.  The picture of the resort they show is what I believe to be the SPA and not the actual buildings where we will be staying....


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## erniecrews (Sep 3, 2017)

Was that at Desert Blue, just wondering, I turned one back in there a few weeks ago?


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## ronparise (Sep 3, 2017)

55plus said:


> Other than working out some of the bugs in the new feces laden website the main issues are here to stay. Wyndham deliberately designed and developed the website to benefit them, which in turn hurts the owners. What use to take seconds to search for availability now can take a hour, give or take, depending how many types units at the resort. Wyndham now controls upgrades so if a upgrade is available Wyndham will determine if you are worthy of it or if Wyndham will keep it for their use. VIP Benefits some owners paid a lot of money for are deteriorating while some are being controlled by Wyndham, such as upgrades. Our only recourse is to spread the word to potential buyers about how Wyndham screws the owners when at the resorts, Hopefully it will hurt their sales, which may get their attention.
> 
> Some on TUG tend to disagree with my take on Wyndham's new excrement filled website. I believe those who disagree with my take on it are either in the tank with Wyndham for some reason, are Wyndham employees or hired yes men paid to counter our complaints. I'll eat my words when the major issues that hinder our ability to efficiently search for availability are corrected and the VIP owners control their reservation upgrades again.




so if I understand you...you are saying the website is a piece of crap now, and if they fix the bugs, it will still be a piece of crap. The search function is a piece of crap, and if they fix it The website will still be a piece of crap. .... 

Thats what I disagree with


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## Avislo (Sep 3, 2017)

ronparise said:


> ... The rule  seems to be it has to be more bedrooms to be an upgrade ... extra luxury, but the other 4 would be sleeping on the floor not to mention we would be violating the occupancy limits





ronparise said:


> so if I understand you...you are saying the website is a piece of crap now, and if they fix the bugs, it will still be a piece of crap. The search function is a piece of crap, and if they fix it The website will still be a piece of crap. ....
> 
> Thats what I disagree with



If I read his continuing posts, including this one, his main point is the changes that are occurring are occurring to increase Wyndham Rental Activity specifically Extra Holidays.  The site appears to be a secondary point as a means to a end.


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## 55plus (Sep 3, 2017)

ronparise said:


> so if I understand you...you are saying the website is a piece of crap now, and if they fix the bugs, it will still be a piece of crap. The search function is a piece of crap, and if they fix it The website will still be a piece of crap. .... Thats what I disagree with


That's not what I said. I said, "I'll eat my words when the major issues that hinder our ability to efficiently search for availability are corrected and the VIP owners control their reservation upgrades again." If Wyndham brings back the search functions and efficiency like we had on the previous website along with the VIP owner control upgrade function, then, the website will no longer be a piece of crap. The bugs are the minor fixes or tweaks it needs.

Until they change the search function and upgrade function back to what it was, it's a piece of crap of a website. As it stands now the website is designed and developed to benefit Wyndham and the owners are being screwed in the process. This whole thing is a matter of principle, something Wyndham doesn't apparently have. What they do have is a lack of integrity because of how they are screwing over the owners.

#Conflict of Interest,  #Lack of Integrity


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## Braindead (Sep 3, 2017)

55plus said:


> That's not what I said. I said, "I'll eat my words when the major issues that hinder our ability to efficiently search for availability are corrected and the VIP owners control their reservation upgrades again." If Wyndham brings back the search functions and efficiency like we had on the previous website along with the VIP owner control upgrade function, then, the website will no longer be a piece of crap.


Totally agree with this part of your post!
I just don't need to hear the POC website benefiting WYN 500 times with no substance


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## ronparise (Sep 3, 2017)

vacationhopeful said:


> Joe ... I am on internet via the cable company. Not dial up. "Truth in advertising" is one thought ... who travels with vases for flowers? I can't think of ever going into a timeshare unit to visit anyone to FIND live flowers in the unit ... plastic flowers or plants are sometimes in the model unit... usually, dusty or aged.
> 
> As for the dazzle .. no one expects to find a model family living in the unit they check into .. but I do expect to find the furniture, wall pictures, china, furniture, etc.
> 
> But I expect a website where I am not watching the "spinning wheel of death" to loading 'the model family' in room after room of furniture and all over the resort. I went there to BOOK a vacation .. not to sit and wait for the website to load time and time again.




The models in the pictures are so we can see ourselves as we would like to see ourselves on vacation.  Good looking and happy.. even the seniors in the pictures have young bodies and un lined faces, The only clue that these people are old is the gray hair... Of course this is exactly what I see looking in a mirror.  I really want to believe that im not as fat or as old as I really am and those pictures help me do that (The fact is children cry and adults look away when I take off my shirt at the pool.... 70 yo man boobs are not a pretty sight)

The "book" button is at the top of every page, so dont look at thepictures and just hit that button... no time lost there.


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## nicemann (Sep 3, 2017)

ronparise said:


> The models in the pictures are so we can see ourselves as we would like to see ourselves on vacation.  Good looking and happy.. even the seniors in the pictures have young bodies and un lined faces, The only clue that these people are old is the gray hair... Of course this is exactly what I see looking in a mirror.  I really want to believe that im not as fat or as old as I really am and those pictures help me do that (The fact is children cry and adults look away when I take off my shirt at the pool.... 70 yo man boobs are not a pretty sight)
> 
> The "book" button is at the top of every page, so dont look at thepictures and just hit that button... no time lost there.


Aaah don't we all have man boobs now.  Heck I hate taking my shirt off at the pool.  I am sure I would clear the entire area if I did.


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## wjappraise (Sep 3, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Im not a VIP anymore, but if I was, I dont see an move to a presidential unit an upgrade
> a two bedroom deluxe at Bonnet Creek (sleeps 8) to a two bedroom presidential (sleeps 4) is a step down in my book



Ron.  Two bedroom PR at Bonnet Creek used to sleep six (one king and two doubles in second bedroom). Now they sleep 8 after tower 6 remodel added sleeper sofas to one, two, and three BR presidential units.  And I view two bedroom deluxe to two bedroom presidential a fantastic upgrade.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ronparise (Sep 3, 2017)

wjappraise said:


> Ron.  Two bedroom PR at Bonnet Creek used to sleep six (one king and two doubles in second bedroom). Now they sleep 8 after tower 6 remodel added sleeper sofas to one, two, and three BR presidential units.  And I view two bedroom deluxe to two bedroom presidential a fantastic upgrade.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I never stayed in a presidential unit and never rented one. I guess I'm just not sophisticated enough to appreciate the luxury or too cheap to pay the price. It's what I bought Wyndham and. It Marriott 


So all I had was the unit info in the directory.  And it's dated. So ok I'll agree and say it's an upgrade.

 But the fact is that Wyndham dosent see it that way, at least not yet. And that's all that really important

I will probably stop posting on this subject and other similar subjects. I'm just not interested in how things should be or could be. My interest is in figuring out what is and how to work with that

I got the sense at my recent meeting that they are looking at re defining just what constitutes an upgrade so I'm betting that we will see some changes before too long


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## wjappraise (Sep 3, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I will probably stop posting on this subject and other similar subjects. I'm just not interested in how things should be or could be. My interest is in figuring out what is and how to work with that



I doubt it Ron.  Remember the scene in The Godfather:  "Just when I thought I was out....".  You're Cosa Nostra.  




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chapjim (Sep 4, 2017)

ronparise said:


> <snip>  I'm just not interested in how things should be or could be.  My interest is in figuring out what is and how to work with that.  <snip>



This I don't understand, Ron.

I am intensely interested in how things should or could be, in part because some improvements might make it easier to work with the system.


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## ronparise (Sep 4, 2017)

chapjim said:


> This I don't understand, Ron.
> 
> I am intensely interested in how things should or could be, in part because some improvements might make it easier to work with the system.




God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

Not that I believe in god and I never even pretended to be courageous. They say wisdom comes with age... so maybe that.  

What I do know is I don't like to waste time or effort on things I can't change. And in my judgement the Wyndham website and the Wyndham rules are just that: things  I can't change


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## ilya (Sep 4, 2017)

ronparise said:


> God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
> Courage to change the things I can,
> And wisdom to know the difference.
> 
> ...




I don't think any mega renter will ever give up the curiosity  on how to beat the system. It was in their blood before in the old system  spending a lot of time trying to figure it out. Even though one may be banned from being an owner , they still have access to accounts to play around and find loopholes to help  the people they are currently  building accounts for.


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## ronparise (Sep 4, 2017)

ilya said:


> I don't think any mega renter will ever give up the curiosity  on how to beat the system. It was in their blood before in the old system  spending a lot of time trying to figure it out. Even though one may be banned from being an owner , they still have access to accounts to play around and find loopholes to help  the people they are currently  building accounts for.



This may just be a matter of semantics but I would say  I'm not trying to "beat" the system. Rather I'm trying to understand the system so I can use it to my best advantage


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## am1 (Sep 4, 2017)

ilya said:


> I don't think any mega renter will ever give up the curiosity  on how to beat the system. It was in their blood before in the old system  spending a lot of time trying to figure it out. Even though one may be banned from being an owner , they still have access to accounts to play around and find loopholes to help  the people they are currently  building accounts for.



That never stopped some mega renters from posting the secrets they learned or were taught.  Killed the business in my opinion.


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## chapjim (Sep 4, 2017)

ronparise said:


> God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
> Courage to change the things I can,
> And wisdom to know the difference.
> 
> ...



Rules, perhaps are something we won't ever change, at least not to the benefit of owners.  Also, those dumb gigantic photos that Wyndham apparently thinks are just grand.  But, the website is something that has many possible areas of improvement.  You as much as said so yourself -- Wyndham is aware of website problems and is trying to fix them.  You managed to get an teleconference with Wyndham to find out if they understood certain aspects of their business.  Now you say you don't care about how things could or should be.  That's what I don't understand.


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## 55plus (Sep 4, 2017)

ronparise said:


> This may just be a matter of semantics but I would say  I'm not trying to "beat" the system. Rather I'm trying to understand the system so I can use it to my best advantage


If the "system" allows you to do something then it's not beating the "system". It's using the system Wyndham designed and developed to your advantage. It's not anyone's fault other than Wyndham's if there is a flaw of some sort that can be exploited by owners for their advantage. Lord knows Wyndham designed and developed the new piece of crap website for their advantage. If the website can be exploited that helps level the playing field for the owner(s) who exploits it.


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## Avislo (Sep 4, 2017)

am1 said:


> That never stopped some mega renters from posting the secrets they learned or were taught.  Killed the business in my opinion.



When the dust settles and things run their course, I do not think there is going to be any significant difference.


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## 55plus (Sep 4, 2017)

Avislo said:


> When the dust settles and things run their course, I do not think there is going to be any significant difference.


Other than Wyndham will have increase the bottom line at the expense of the owners. I'm very happy I hung onto the stock. Got screwed on one end and profiting greatly on the other. Bought it at 18 and now it's at 100.


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## ronparise (Sep 5, 2017)

chapjim said:


> Rules, perhaps are something we won't ever change, at least not to the benefit of owners.  Also, those dumb gigantic photos that Wyndham apparently thinks are just grand.  But, the website is something that has many possible areas of improvement.  You as much as said so yourself -- Wyndham is aware of website problems and is trying to fix them.  You managed to get an teleconference with Wyndham to find out if they understood certain aspects of their business.  Now you say you don't care about how things could or should be.  That's what I don't understand.



Of course I see that there are things that are broken and others  I think could be improved. We all do, including wyndham.  I have made my complaints and my suggestions. but thats all I can do

To say I dont care gives the wrong impression. I do care about the club, the website and the rules.  What I dont care to do is fight to change the direction wyndham is taking


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## ronparise (Sep 5, 2017)

am1 said:


> That never stopped some mega renters from posting the secrets they learned or were taught.  Killed the business in my opinion.




 Get real..we all knew it had to end one day. It was just a matter of time. It was always "I need just one good year, I hope it lasts just one more year"  what we had was not a business; it was a hustle. And  Wyndham knew  exactly what we were doing. Posting about it didnt tell Wyndham anything they didnt already know.


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## ilya (Sep 5, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Get real..we all knew it had to end one day. It was just a matter of time. It was always "I need just one good year, I hope it lasts just one more year"  what we had was not a business; it was a hustle. And  Wyndham knew  exactly what we were doing. Posting about it didnt tell Wyndham anything they didnt already know.



I guess the same holds true now. Posting and listing about  the website  failure  and then attempting to sit down with them . They already know the problems and knew exactly what they were doing. Same logic.


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## ronparise (Sep 5, 2017)

as it turned out...yes


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## Railman83 (Sep 5, 2017)

55plus said:


> Other than Wyndham will have increase the bottom line at the expense of the owners. I'm very happy I hung onto the stock. Got screwed on one end and profiting greatly on the other. Bought it at 18 and now it's at 100.


So if I underinflate footballs and don't get caught that's the NFLs problem?  If I push some buttons and Wells Fargo deposits a million in my account I get to keep it?  

A better analogy might be counting cards.   For a long time it was theoretically illegal but how could they catch you?  Now that they make concealed counting calculators they can catch you. And perhaps for some Wyndham is able to catch, freeze and settle out.

So if you have a flaw or a predictable upgrade cycle that allows a handful of people to reap 4br at half studio prices writ large and sell to the outside world I guess you can rationalize that Wyndham's system allowed it.  

If I give you the upgrade thing as a flaw and they deserve whatever I get, and that doesn't just  someone a low tech hacker, you still would have to convince me that commercial renting with these gains is somehow allowed.


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## ronparise (Sep 5, 2017)

According to the "book" commercial renting is not allowed. And neither is gaming the system to the disadvantage of others

And it's been that way for years.  The Wyndham people with whom  I was negotiating a settlement, made it clear that their starting point was that 1)  I was part of a large scale commercial operation and 2) that they considered cancel and rebook something that I used to gain an unfair advantage of  others

With those assumptions on behalf of the club, they took me out. I was happy to get out alive

Nothing has changed. If you are using the club to operate  a large scale commercial enterprise and/or if what you are doing disadvantages other owners, they will hunt you down and take you out.


So whether the system allows you to get 4 bedrooms at half the studio price or not, it won't be tolerated.  It may take them ten more years, but they will get to you

I made the decision to go big in 2013. I knew from the very beginning that if I pulled it off, it would not last forever. And it didn't

So don't worry if someone else figures out how to use the club to their advantage, it's not going to last


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## am1 (Sep 5, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Get real..we all knew it had to end one day. It was just a matter of time. It was always "I need just one good year, I hope it lasts just one more year"  what we had was not a business; it was a hustle. And  Wyndham knew  exactly what we were doing. Posting about it didnt tell Wyndham anything they didnt already know.



When everyone started doing it was when it got taken serious.  I have no idea what Wyndham knew and when but people posting loopholes, secrets, etc on a public website was not helping.


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## cayman01 (Sep 5, 2017)

Some observations as I enjoy a stay in Flagstaff. 

If we had the new rules with the old website I think we will all have moved on and been okay. We would have complained some but we could live with it. And the quest for work arounds  would be in full swing. 

Wyndham has no idea or is not admitting to us or themselves how much the new website is hurting their sales. Anybody on this board bought or even considered buying from Wyndham since the Voyager rollout? If anybody has please post. 

 Ron, did you talk specifically to the problem of how slow the system is. How it locks up. The endless wheel.of death. Re entering resorts for every date search? Etc. This is the stuff that really drives most of us crazy.  Waiting for a page to load for a minute is ridiculous.

 I wouldn't consider for a minute buying any more points from Wyndham or re-sale without the website being properly fixed.

 Inventory issues. I have read nothing about this. Is Wyndham aware of all the inventory issues they have? 

 All this is killing sales for Wyndham. This is what they really need to know. How the inefficient website is hurting Wyndham as well as us.


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## 55plus (Sep 5, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> So if I underinflate footballs and don't get caught that's the NFLs problem?  If I push some buttons and Wells Fargo deposits a million in my account I get to keep it?
> 
> A better analogy might be counting cards.   For a long time it was theoretically illegal but how could they catch you?  Now that they make concealed counting calculators they can catch you. And perhaps for some Wyndham is able to catch, freeze and settle out.
> 
> ...


Bottom line, if the website allows you to do something and the policy doesn't state not to, then do it. It's on Wyndham's back because it's there designed and developed website and didn't cover it in the book. Cancel and rebook as an example. The book doesn't say you can't cancel and rebook. Until it does, you can do it. Upgrades, if the website allows you to upgrade from a suite to a 4 bedroom, book it. The book doesn't state you can't go from a suite to a 4 bedroom. As for points, they are like money. If you receive more points than you should receive, that's wrong because it's theft. My beef with Wyndham is with the degraded and frustrating search function.  #Conflict of Interest   #Lack of Integrity

Commercial renting: Wyndham does it and they allow owners to do it through Extra Holidays. So they would be hard pressed to enforce owners from renting their reservations themselves unless they stop accepting rentals reservations from owners, and maybe stop renting through Extra Holidays themselves. Until they do it it's not enforceable because it would be considered a monopoly and a form of price setting. I think you could get the Federal Trade Administration involved in this case.


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## ronparise (Sep 5, 2017)

55plus said:


> Bottom line, if the website allows you to do something and the policy doesn't state not to, then do it. It's on Wyndham's back because it's there designed and developed website and didn't cover it in the book. Cancel and rebook as an example. The book doesn't say you can't cancel and rebook. Until it does, you can do it. Upgrades, if the website allows you to upgrade from a suite to a 4 bedroom, book it. The book doesn't state you can't go from a suite to a 4 bedroom. As for points, they are like money. If you receive more points than you should receive, that's wrong because it's theft. My beef with Wyndham is with the degraded and frustrating search function.  #Conflict of Interest   #Lack of Integrity
> 
> Commercial renting: Wyndham does it and they allow owners to do it through Extra Holidays. So they would be hard pressed to enforce owners from renting their reservations themselves unless they stop accepting rentals reservations from owners, and maybe stop renting through Extra Holidays themselves. Until they do it it's not enforceable because it would be considered a monopoly and a form of price setting. I think you could get the Federal Trade Administration involved in this case.




I'm inclined to agree with you regarding commercial renting, but I dont think a defense that "everyone else does it" will work.  I tried the "but you let me do it for years" argument too. Thats the one the lawyers wanted to use... but no go.    

The way I look at it is that since "commercial " is not defined, it can't be enforced. So they have to go at it in another way. There is no "commercial" with out profits, and the profits come from the discounts, and the discounts are a  VIP benefit...  so they are closing the loophole that allowed for $12000 Platinum accounts and they went after cancel and rebook/upgrade... as you say it is perfectly ok to cancel, and of course you can make reservations from available inventory. What they are doing is "fixing" it so your cancellation becomes someone else's upgrade... ezpz

and then they made it worthwhile for me to retire... As Vito Corleone would say... They made me an offer I couldnt refuse.


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## Railman83 (Sep 5, 2017)

55plus said:


> Bottom line, if the website allows you to do something and the policy doesn't state not to, then do it. It's on Wyndham's back because it's there designed and developed website and didn't cover it in the book. Cancel and rebook as an example. The book doesn't say you can't cancel and rebook. Until it does, you can do it. Upgrades, if the website allows you to upgrade from a suite to a 4 bedroom, book it. The book doesn't state you can't go from a suite to a 4 bedroom. As for points, they are like money. If you receive more points than you should receive, that's wrong because it's theft. My beef with Wyndham is with the degraded and frustrating search function.  #Conflict of Interest   #Lack of Integrity
> 
> Commercial renting: Wyndham does it and they allow owners to do it through Extra Holidays. So they would be hard pressed to enforce owners from renting their reservations themselves unless they stop accepting rentals reservations from owners, and maybe stop renting through Extra Holidays themselves. Until they do it it's not enforceable because it would be considered a monopoly and a form of price setting. I think you could get the Federal Trade Administration involved in this case.


Using your argument, the book says club members can't be commercial renters, it doesn't say Wyndham can't.  It is a double standard of course --- but you can get around it by building your own hundred resorts.

I concede your point that you can cancel and rebook if it were still possible as it has not been expressly forbidden by the rules.   But if you do that trick you can't build a business around it because that is commercial renting.  The line between fair use renting and commercial is more of a stripe than a number but it's like pornography, you know it when you see it.


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## am1 (Sep 5, 2017)

I was never a commercial renter.  Not sure what it means anyways.


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## 55plus (Sep 5, 2017)

Railman83 said:


> Using your argument, the book says club members can't be commercial renters, it doesn't say Wyndham can't.  It is a double standard of course --- but you can get around it by building your own hundred resorts.
> 
> I concede your point that you can cancel and rebook if it were still possible as it has not been expressly forbidden by the rules.   But if you do that trick you can't build a business around it because that is commercial renting.  The line between fair use renting and commercial is more of a stripe than a number but it's like pornography, you know it when you see it.


I wouldn't need to build 100 resorts in order to rent, we owners own at these resorts, as does Wyndham. All are owners so all should be able to rent. Commercial is a subjective word. It would have to be more defined if it was going to be enforced. And since we are all owners, as is Wyndham, so if owners are allowed to rent neither should Wyndham be allowed to rent. This is where the Federal Trade Commission comes into play.


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## Railman83 (Sep 5, 2017)

I agree that commercial is subjective; well not definitionally, but in this context because there is no specific threshold.  But again the folks they put the screws to were not in the gray area.  There is no question they were commercial renters.

More power too them.  In my youth I used to count cards.  I had no illusions it wasnt against the rules or that if I was caught I'd be banned from the casino.  But I would never pretend I have a right to bend the rules and the casinos just had to eat it.   

Ron has the right attitude about this "good while it lasted but the world changes" as it were. Others seem to take it as there God given right to leverage their 77k developer purchase that made their 8 million resale VIP so they could pay a fraction of a room and rent out cheaper than a owner and make a margin.  So yeah I don't have sympathy for their complaints.


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## ronparise (Sep 5, 2017)

Renting is not prohibited. If you are renting to offset your maintenance fees i bet Wyndham leaves you alone


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## dagger1 (Sep 5, 2017)

cayman01 said:


> Some observations as I enjoy a stay in Flagstaff.
> 
> If we had the new rules with the old website I think we will all have moved on and been okay. We would have complained some but we could live with it. And the quest for work arounds  would be in full swing.
> 
> ...


My wife and I arrive at Flagstaff tomorrow afternoon...  Hope to meet you!


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## am1 (Sep 5, 2017)

I was targeted and was not a commercial renter, or at least the renting I was doing was not against the rules.  It may not be liked but stopping it directly is not likely.


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## chapjim (Sep 5, 2017)

ronparise said:


> Renting is not prohibited. If you are renting to offset your maintenance fees i bet Wyndham leaves you alone



If you stand back a ways, that's what I was doing -- trying to cover my maintenance fees.  Of course, if I had fewer points, I wouldn't have had so much to cover.  That means making a profit on some, maybe losing on some others.  Also, pulling off an upgrade to a discounted unit makes it easier to make a profit on a reservation.  If merely trying to cover one's maintenance fees gets Wyndham to leave you alone, a lot of us should be left alone.

What someone was doing is probably better measured by looking at the percentage of reservations that were for own or family use.  The lower that percentage, the more likely the owner was conducting a business.


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## Braindead (Sep 5, 2017)

am1 said:


> I was targeted and was not a commercial renter, or at least the renting I was doing was not against the rules.  It may not be liked but stopping it directly is not likely.


In 2013 Ron went to Avenue Plaza and reported. They told me I was a local celebrity here.

Your reply November 21, 2013
I must be PRESIDENT in a few places then.

FUNNY KINDA SOUNDS LIKE SOMEBODY WAS ALL COCKY AND BRAGGING ABOUT HIS COMMERCIAL RENTING BUSINESS


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## CO skier (Sep 5, 2017)

am1 said:


> I was never a commercial renter.  Not sure what it means anyways.


How many reservations did you make for your own use?

How many reservations did you make for guests?

Per year or in total, I do not think it will make a difference.

With the answers to these questions, we can help you understand what commercial renting means.


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## ronparise (Sep 5, 2017)

CO skier said:


> How many reservations did you make for your own use?
> 
> How many reservations did you make for guests?
> 
> ...




it dosent matter what either of you think "commercial" means. It's undefined in the club directory.  So it means whatever Wyndham wants it to mean


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## CO skier (Sep 6, 2017)

ronparise said:


> it dosent matter what either of you think "commercial" means. It's undefined in the club directory.  So it means whatever Wyndham wants it to mean


Agreed.  And obviously whatever Wyndham knew about that "not a commercial renter" which may or may not have been commercial renting, led to the owner's exodus.

So it is up to the 86'ed owners to defend why, if they were not a commercial renter, they are no longer a Club Wyndham owner.


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## ronparise (Sep 6, 2017)

chapjim said:


> If you stand back a ways, that's what I was doing -- trying to cover my maintenance fees.  Of course, if I had fewer points, I wouldn't have had so much to cover.  That means making a profit on some, maybe losing on some others.  Also, pulling off an upgrade to a discounted unit makes it easier to make a profit on a reservation.  If merely trying to cover one's maintenance fees gets Wyndham to leave you alone, a lot of us should be left alone.
> 
> What someone was doing is probably better measured by looking at the percentage of reservations that were for own or family use.  The lower that percentage, the more likely the owner was conducting a business.



And Wyndham has left you alone, haven't they?

i believe Wyndham is more concerned with the no unfair advantage rule than the no commercial use rule


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## ecwinch (Sep 6, 2017)

am1 said:


> That never stopped some mega renters from posting the secrets they learned or were taught.  Killed the business in my opinion.


Perhaps accelerated it, but knowledge has a path of it's own. The outcome was inventible.


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## ronparise (Sep 6, 2017)

am1 said:


> I was targeted and was not a commercial renter, or at least the renting I was doing was not against the rules.  It may not be liked but stopping it directly is not likely.



I could argue that none  of us were violating any rules. God knows I wasn't.
And I could say I wasn't a commercial operation because I rented at or below mf, most of the time  (I made most of my money buying and selling)

But it dosent matter,  I know exactly what I did to piss them off. It was within the rules, but it pissed them off. And I know they didn't like me much as a result.
I don't know why but I suspect they didn't much like you either


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## ecwinch (Sep 6, 2017)

Might need to define what a commercial renter is, before we start posting disclaimers on what we are or are not, and have and have not done.


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## ronparise (Sep 6, 2017)

I'll be running from Irma this weekend if anyone is at Reunion. Coffee is on me


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## ronparise (Sep 6, 2017)

CO skier said:


> Agreed.  And obviously whatever Wyndham knew about that "not a commercial renter" which may or may not have been commercial renting, led to the owner's exodus.
> 
> So it is up to the 86'ed owners to defend why, if they were not a commercial renter, they are no longer a Club Wyndham owner.



I don't believe Wyndham gives a damn about commercial renting. I may be wrong but I think the issue was the "unfair advantage" rule


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## am1 (Sep 6, 2017)

ecwinch said:


> Perhaps accelerated it, but knowledge has a path of it's own. The outcome was inventible.



No doubt but why accelerate it?  Thankfully at this point is does not matter.  I had a great run with it. 

It only matters what Wyndham thinks is a commercial renter or thinks that they can enforce.


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## Braindead (Sep 6, 2017)

ronparise said:


> it dosent matter what either of you think "commercial" means. It's undefined in the club directory.  So it means whatever Wyndham wants it to mean


You stated that in one of your negotiation meetings a Wyndham rep commented along the lines of -that was quite the Commercial business you had going. Wyndham hasn't defined commercial it but evidently determined some were. 

Your right about Wyndham isn't against renting until you cross their redline. Just no one ever knows what the redline is at any given time.

AM1 was bragging you were peanuts verses him in comparison to the amount of renting you were both doing.


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## Braindead (Sep 6, 2017)

ronparise said:


> I don't believe Wyndham gives a damn about commercial renting. I may be wrong but I think the issue was the "unfair advantage" rule


Seems Wyndham sees unfair advantage and commercial go hand in hand.
Wyndham doesn't think some of you could get to the scale you were without also gaining an unfair advantage .
Whether you want to call it commercial or not.

Your 100% correct the vast majority of VIPs that rent and used cancel-rebook-cancel-upgrade saw no adverse action from Wyndham.

AM1 can blame anyone he wants. I think 2 things took you guys down
1. Extra points
2. Your own renters. Adam likes to talk about loose lips. Your renters had the loosest lips of all


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## ronparise (Sep 6, 2017)

Braindead said:


> You stated that in one of your negotiation meetings a Wyndham rep commented along the lines of -that was quite the Commercial business you had going. Wyndham hasn't defined commercial it but evidently determined some were.
> 
> Your right about Wyndham isn't against renting until you cross their redline. Just no one ever knows what the redline is at any given time.
> 
> AM1 was bragging you were peanuts verses him in comparison to the amount of renting you were both doing.


 
and I was peanuts

Yes they knew I was part of a big commercial operation... actually it was a loose association of referral partners with different specialities, One was a travel agent type with lots of customers, I was primarily a points supplier, another guy was a broker  so between us we were able to buy, rent and sell. Yes,  Wyndham believed that we were a big commercial operation, but that isnt what they used to take us out


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## ronparise (Sep 6, 2017)

Braindead said:


> Seems Wyndham sees unfair advantage and commercial go hand in hand.
> Wyndham doesn't think some of you could get to the scale you were without also gaining an unfair advantage .
> Whether you want to call it commercial or not.
> 
> ...




sure the unfair advantage thing (cancel and rebook and upgrade,) is what provided the profits...


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## am1 (Sep 6, 2017)

Braindead said:


> In 2013 Ron went to Avenue Plaza and reported. They told me I was a local celebrity here.
> 
> Your reply November 21, 2013
> I must be PRESIDENT in a few places then.
> ...



I am honoured you read something and remembered what I wrote 4 years ago.  3 years before you were even had an account here.


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## chapjim (Sep 6, 2017)

ronparise said:


> And Wyndham has left you alone, haven't they?
> 
> i believe Wyndham is more concerned with the no unfair advantage rule than the no commercial use rule



The problem is one breaches the "no unfair advantage" rule on a transaction level.   To make a determination about breaching the "no commercial use" rule, you have to look at the overall account.

Bottom line is as you say: what we think counts for nothing.


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## ronparise (Sep 6, 2017)

am1 said:


> I am honoured you read something and remembered what I wrote 4 years ago.  3 years before you were even had an account here.


And Wyndham remembers too


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## ronparise (Sep 6, 2017)

Adam

Aren't you in south Florida.   Are you ready for Irma.  Everything ok?


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## Pietin (Sep 6, 2017)

I love all the talk of the "no unfair advantage rule" but Wyndham has stacked the deck with unfair advantages.  I am not a VIP nor do I rent but I own _W_yndham and have follow you guys for year.  I believe what they did to you is unfair.   Wyndham has unfair advantages by stacking HOA and taking inventory for Extra Holidays.  I understand take some rooms for rent by Extra Holidays but taking 90% seems excessive.  
I know there are people saying if you are so unhappy with Wyndham then...  well I am not unhappy, do I wish things were things were different or better, yes!  Do I think that they over-reached by taking out the Mega Renters, maybe.  Do I think they treated you unfair, yes!  Do I think they have unfair "no unfair advantage" rule, YES.  Do I hate them and want to sell off my Wyndham, NO.


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## am1 (Sep 6, 2017)

Not in South Florida.  I do wish everyone the best there.  

There is very little I understood about Wyndham.  I bought the stock as a mark in 2008 when I got into renting.  Figured I would make money on both sides and be a real owner of Wyndham.  After the crash in 2009 I bought more shares.  The price shot up but I was worried what would happen when timeshare sales stopped in a non recession.  Foolish me as no matter what people think on here the sales rooms are always full with people buying.  In fact Wyndham did better as they started WAAM which made their cost of goods sold even cheaper.  Stock continued to go up.  

At this point what is done is done and I happy with the outcome.  

I will let others worry about the website and the other issues.


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## CO skier (Sep 7, 2017)

am1 said:


> I am honoured you read something and remembered what I wrote 4 years ago.  3 years before you were even had an account here.


TUG has an excellent search function (very handy, sometimes) that remembers a lot.  I had no idea what this was about, until I used the search function to find out.


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## CO skier (Sep 7, 2017)

Pietin said:


> I understand take some rooms for rent by Extra Holidays but taking 90% seems excessive.


Do you understand that Wyndham can reserve 90% of only whatever is leftover at 60 days?

_11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations *up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy*, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, *Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use.* In addition, to the extent more Points are available in the Plan than are allocated to Members other 
than Wyndham, Wyndham may sell or lease Points on such terms as Wyndham and the Trustee deem reasonable. The purchasers or lessees of such Points shall have such Membership rights as Wyndham and the Trustee deem appropriate._


Is it a coincidence that the VIP upgrade is also 60 days?  Does anyone doubt that VIP upgrades are intended for leftover reservations at 60 days?

Does everyone understand, now, why cancelling a prime reservation made at 13 or 10 months and immediately rebooking within 60 days, whether for profit or for personal use, was an unfair advantage and an unintended benefit?


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## wjappraise (Sep 8, 2017)

CO skier said:


> Does everyone understand, now, why cancelling a prime reservation made at 13 or 10 months and immediately rebooking within 60 days, whether for profit or for personal use, was an unfair advantage and an unintended benefit?



Not accurate. 
As a Wyndham employee or shill you know that Extra Holidays benefits most of all by this.  Not the owners you despise.


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## ecwinch (Sep 8, 2017)

CO skier said:


> Do you understand that Wyndham can reserve 90% of only whatever is leftover at 60 days?
> 
> 
> Does everyone understand, now, why cancelling a prime reservation made at 13 or 10 months and immediately rebooking within 60 days, whether for profit or for personal use, was an unfair advantage and an unintended benefit?



So you understand that Wyndham has significant ability to take-out last minute inventory, but you think that your fellow owners using the cancel/rebook is an injustice?


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## CO skier (Sep 8, 2017)

ecwinch said:


> So you understand that Wyndham has significant ability to take-out last minute inventory, but you think that people using the cancel/rebook is an unfair advantage?


When the cancel-rebookers misrepresent their intentions and falsely create their own "distressed" inventory at 60-days, YES it is obviously an unfair advantage.

If cancel/rebook (which Wyndham does not do) is not a scam, why do the cancel/rebookers feel the need to rebook the exact reservation they just cancelled as soon as possible before any other owner has a chance?


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## ronparise (Sep 8, 2017)

CO skier said:


> When the cancel-rebookers misrepresent their intentions and falsely create their own "distressed" inventory at 60-days, YES it is obviously an unfair advantage.
> 
> If cancel/rebook (which Wyndham does not do) is not a scam, why do the cancel/rebookers feel the need to rebook the exact reservation they just cancelled as soon as possible before any other owner has a chance?



Dont you realize that you won this argument. There  no need for you to rub it in or expect us to like it. Nobody likes a sore loser. And nobody likes a  likes a sore winner either


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## Pietin (Sep 8, 2017)

CO skier said:


> Do you understand that Wyndham can reserve 90% of only whatever is leftover at 60 days?



I do get it.   As I said I am not VIP so I have no interest in the discount, what I do have an interest in is the loss of booking rooms last minute.  I can't always plan out a 10 plus months in advance, so if room become available because someone canceled, it would be nice to have a shot at them instead of them going to Wyndham.  

I also get we have to play by Wyndham's rules since they have the ball.  But that don't mean the rule they set up are fair.   




CO skier said:


> If cancel/rebook (which Wyndham does not do) is not a scam, why do the cancel/rebookers feel the need to rebook the exact reservation they just cancelled as soon as possible before any other owner has a chance?



If I could get a bargain, by buy a product and having the ability to return it and buy it on sale, I would do that all day long.   Now, if you said I had to wait 24 hours after I returned it before I could buy it again but it might not be there, would do it, it depended on a few variables.   Now if you said, I could return it and the store employee would buy it at the sale price, and then resale it for more so no one else can have a change of buy, I would never return it. 

Cancel and rebook was something we were told we could do at every sales presentation we ever when to by Wyndham.  That's like the police saying the speed limit is 55mph but you can go 65mph and you won't get pulled over.  Then getting pulled over at 55 saying you should have know better. 

Like I said, I like mostly like Wyndham but there would be things as an owner, I would change.  The Extra Holiday's is one of them.  I get not wanting to have rooms go empty in a hotel but these are not hotels. 

I have all my Wyndham contracts at resale, and resale prices, knowing other have paid much more for theirs, is this unfair too?  Is it fair that I pay the same maintenance fees as a  VIP but get none of the benefits?  Is it fair that when I go into a sale presentation, I know there is nothing the sale person can do to have me buy a property from Wyndham, and I am there just for the gift?  It is what it was it is!  Nothing I say will make Wyndham stop doing what they do, it their ball so I have to play by their rules, that don't mean they are fair.  Does it mean I should be quite if I think someone else is being threated unfairly, NO.   Now if Wyndham want to explain itself, they should!  Until then and until I see how there rules and rule change benefit all of us, I will believe they are unfair.  Again, I am not going to sell off my Wyndham, as I can play by these rules, fair or not.


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## ilya (Sep 8, 2017)

We all know Wyndham taught us about cancel/rebook/upgrade to entice us to buy. That is why most of the contract  point totals  enough  to book a one bedroom plus the room size you need.  Once they went to CWA the required amount of points  was different.


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## Braindead (Sep 8, 2017)

ilya said:


> We all know Wyndham taught us about cancel/rebook/upgrade to entice us to buy. That is why most of the contract  point totals  enough  to book a one bedroom plus the room size you need.  Once they went to CWA the required amount of points  was different.


CWA did not change the required amount of points. It's not different.
The point charts are still the same


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## ilya (Sep 8, 2017)

h


Braindead said:


> CWA did not change the required amount of points. It's not different.
> The point charts are still the same




Yes they did. According to our sales update years ago. Only 400,000 points contract or above.  Unlike a UDI where they offered  points for a 1 bedroom plus a 2 bedroom. C/R/U


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## Pietin (Sep 8, 2017)

ilya said:


> Yes they did. According to our sales update years ago. Only 400,000 points contract or above.  Unlike a UDI where they offered  points for a 1 bedroom plus a 2 bedroom. C/R/U




Wyndham change the VIP levels about that time.  They changed it from 300,000 Silver VIP to 400,000 required for Silver VIP and Gold from 500,000 to 750,000.  This goes for CWA contract along with deed resorts.  CWA came out before this change in policy.  So if you both CWA before the change a 300,000 CWA would get you Silver VIP.  The sales staff was right to a certain extent.  Any points will work deed resort or CWA as long as the are all developer purchase and they don't need to be purchased all at one time.


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## Braindead (Sep 8, 2017)

ilya said:


> Yes they did. According to our sales update years ago. Only 400,000 points contract or above.  Unlike a UDI where they offered  points for a 1 bedroom plus a 2 bedroom. C/R/U


There's a 94,500 and a couple of 64,000 point CWA contracts on eBay for sale right now
Several 105,000 point CWA contracts


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## ilya (Sep 9, 2017)

Braindead said:


> There's a 94,500 and a couple of 64,000 point CWA contracts on eBay for sale right now
> Several 105,000 point CWA contracts




According to the corporate memo only 400,000 or above. They would not offer us less when we asked then came out with the good old corporate memo, maybe it was a sales pitch but they lost a sale for 200,000 points. Similar to what other people are stating now. Anyway, the contracts for UDI were designed for enough points for the  C/R/U.


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## tschwa2 (Sep 9, 2017)

ilya said:


> According to the corporate memo only 400,000 or above. They would not offer us less when we asked then came out with the good old corporate memo, maybe it was a sales pitch but they lost a sale for 200,000 points. Similar to what other people are stating now. Anyway, the contracts for UDI were designed for enough points for the  C/R/U.


There have been reports that 400,000 is the minimum but there have been more reports of sales agent "finding" few point packages when pressed or in some cases offering smaller packages from the get go.  The 400,000 seems to be some kind of pilot program where Wyndham is testing to see how effective it is to offer only larger packages it certainly isn't system wide.  If you really want a retail smaller package call corporate they can also beat the cost per 1000 in many cases too.


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## Braindead (Sep 9, 2017)

ilya said:


> Yes they did. According to our sales update years ago. Only 400,000 points contract or above.  Unlike a UDI where they offered  points for a 1 bedroom plus a 2 bedroom. C/R/U


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## Braindead (Sep 9, 2017)

tschwa2 said:


> There have been reports that 400,000 is the minimum but there have been more reports of sales agent "finding" few point packages when pressed or in some cases offering smaller packages from the get go.  The 400,000 seems to be some kind of pilot program where Wyndham is testing to see how effective it is to offer only larger packages it certainly isn't system wide.  If you really want a retail smaller package call corporate they can also beat the cost per 1000 in many cases too.


Ilya was saying the 400,000 point minimum points being sold has been in effect for years.
Your talking since Voyagers launch


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## Pietin (Sep 10, 2017)

I have never had a sale person offer us more than 154K points,  maybe it our profile or our income or the resorts we have toured at.  Last time at GC  during the holidays they offered us 68K CWA to fix our problems.


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## schoolmarm (Sep 14, 2017)

I had an update where they said 400K minimum....but we have had several new owners reporting that they have 84K packages.


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