# Hyatt Pure Points System Owners Update



## DMSTWO

DW and I went through an owner's update last week at Pinon Pointe.  Also had a relative with us who went through the typical sales pitch separately.

Would love to hear of other peoples experiences.

In our case the owner's sales rep started off by asking our timeshare history, and in particular what if any questions we had for him.  Once I demonstrated a good working knowledge of not only HVC but the TS industry as a whole, I told him our main interest in attending the update was to learn how things were going to change under ILG's (Interval Leisure Group) ownership.

He said, I think you will be happy with some of the new and exciting things happening now and that ILG is involved.

He did however, say that before we get into that aspect of our ownership that he needed to let us know that Pinon Point is virtually sold out, and that their current push was to sell the new Maui Property (as he handed me a listing of unit costs and MFs for Maui :hysterical.

He then said, that given my knowledge and practice of optimizing through the use of the "Highest Value/ Lowest MF model," that Maui probably wasn't something we would likely be interested in, but let him know after we had a chance to look over the pricing schedules.  Both he and the closer were nice guys.  The whole experience was relaxed and without high pressure tactics.


He then launched in to the great new Pure Points Program (PPP) that ILG had started marketing just the week before.  Essentially, the new model going forward would be strictly a "pure points based program," rather than the current HVC model of "deeded weeks w/points based exchange program."  He touted the new program as offering greater flexibility, more trading opportunities...yadda, yadda, yadda.  He then tried to pitch selling some of the existing deeded weeks inventory in the existing properties, to "up" our total points availability (and thus a stronger trading position) in anticipation of the great new resorts that would become available under the new PPP.

We are also deeded week owners in the Marriott group and enrolled in their Destination Club Points conversion program.  I immediately started having nightmares of MVCI's 2010 transition to the Destination Club Points program.  The pitch from our HVC guy was almost vebatum the dialog heard from MVCI sales reps .

So, I asked him how week owner trading power (legacy points i.e. the 2000 we have for our Platinum 2Bdr Lock-off) would be treated as compared to the new PPP points.  His answer was just like MVCI's had been back in 2010..."points are points."

So I asked how had ILG managed to construct the program to avoid the problems of commingling deeded week points (Legacy), with deeded trust points (Trust).  He had no clue what the issue was and felt my concerns were baseless...again he felt "Points are Points."

I then explained that MVCI found out that they could not legally commingle points (as they are based on property interests vs trust interests and the respective underlying deeds prohibited such a transaction), and had to create two separate points programs within their Destination Club program (refered to as "buckets" on the TUG MVCI forum) this resulted in a trust bucket and a legacy bucket.

I further pointed out that the owners of points in one bucket could not directly book a unit in the other "bucket" so the promise of full reach of all properties was misrepresented.  When MVCI was confronted with this legal barrier they had to create a MVCI internal exchange program that created a third "bucket" the exchange "bucket."  So for a MVCI owner to exchange across the legacy/trust boundary, their interest (unit or points) had to be surrendered to the exchange bucket for trade.  Only those interests deposited in that exchange bucket were available for an owner to book if they were trying to trade across from the legacy properties to the trust properties, or vise a versa.  I also pointed out that it cost more points for a legacy owner to trade into their own home property than the points they received for their property (referred to as the Skim).


He really had nothing to say, except I should bring up my concern with his associate (the closer).

I did bring up the issue with the closer but didn't mention MVCI.  He had no idea what I was talking about, had never even considered such concerns, and suggested I direct my questions to HVC management for a direct response.  

He also asked that if I do send such an email, that he be copied on it and any responses, so that he could learn more.  When I asked who to address the email to, his response was just to send it to customer support.

As an after thought he mentioned that they had just hired a new executive that was well versed in points based systems, having worked for one of their competitors.  I asked who that might be...his answer was Jeff Hansen a former MVCI Exec who had been a major player in the MVCI change to their points program.

I don't know Jeff but I surely recognized the name.  Hopefully Jeff brings lessons learned from the MVCI debacle and can help make HVC's program less problematic...but then again maybe my nightmares are well justified .

A big problem that evolved over the course of time at MVCI was that sales people were peddling sales of trust points to legacy owners with the understanding that those points could be combined with the legacy points to expand their trading power.  For example, they would push a legacy owner into buying an additional 1000 points to add to the existing 2000 legacy points they had.  They stated that these combined points could then be used to trade for a high value property, a cruise or great explorer package.  It turns out that legacy points and trust points cannot be combined .  So the legacy owners found themselves holding 1000 trust points that had minimal trading power and high MFs.  In many cases they only derived decent trading power by banking the points from year to year until they could combine enough to be useful.  As recently as last year an MVCI sales person tried that pitch on us.  We told the sales person what our understanding was that the points could not be combined.  She then brought in a more senior member of the sale team to resolve the issue.  After hearing our concerns, that senior sales team member said that he was an owner of both trust and legacy points, and that from his own personal experience, he could confirmed that trust and legacy points can't be combined.  Maybe MVCI has found a way to fix that problem since then, but if they have we are unaware of it.


Our relative that went through the non-owner sales pitch came back to the unit with a price sheet labeled something like "Hyatt Pinon Pointe Bronze Points Package."  As I recall, cost was $43,000 for 2600 points and the MFs were going to be appreciably higher than the current Pinon Pointe MFs.  This was also a phenomenon experienced at MVCI.  The trust based MFs must represent all property interests held in the trust, so MFs are an average of the MFs for all held units plus the additional administrative costs incurred as a result of having to manage the internal trading program between the buckets."

Another phenomenon that was seen at MVCI is that they discovered that some of the new points owners were mad because they had trouble trading into the older (sold out) resorts because deeded week owners were not typically surrendering their weeks into the exchange busket.  MVCIs response was to aggressively start exercising ROFR so that they could buy those deeded week and transfer them into the trust.  We are currently seeing a similar trend of HVC exercising ROFR.

If you want to read more about the problems at Marriott check out their forum focusing on threads in the 2010-2012 time period...but needless to say there are a number of disgruntled owners (both legacy and trust) over on that forum.


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## Bill4728

DMSTWO said:


> We are also deeded week owners in the Marriott group and enrolled in their Destination Club Points conversion program.  I immediately started having nightmares of MVCI's 2010 transition to the Destination Club Points program.  The pitch from our HVC guy was almost vebatum the dialog heard from MVCI sales reps .
> 
> I then explained that MVCI found out that they could not legally commingle points (as they are based on property interests vs trust interests and the respective underlying titles prohibited such a transaction), and had to create two separate points programs within their Destination Club program (refered to as "buckets" on the TUG MVCI forum) this resulted in a trust bucket and a legacy bucket.
> 
> I further pointed out that the owners of points in one bucket could not directly book a unit in the other "bucket" so the promise of full reach of all properties was misrepresented.  When MVCI was confronted with this legal barrier they had to create a MVCI internal exchange program that created a third "bucket" the exchange "bucket."  So for a MVCI owner to exchange across the legacy/trust boundary, their interest (unit or points) had to be surrendered to the exchange bucket for trade.  Only those interests deposited in that exchange bucket were available for an owner to book if they were trying to trade across from the legacy properties to the trust properties, or vise a versa.  I also pointed out that it cost more points for a legacy owner to trade into their own home property than the points they received for their property (referred to as the Skim).
> 
> 
> A big problem that evolved over the course of time at MVCI was that sales people were peddling sales of trust points to legacy owners with the understanding that those points could be combined with the legacy points to expand their trading power.  For example, they would push a legacy owner into buying an additional 1000 points to add to the existing 2000 legacy points they had.  They stated that these combined points could then be used to trade for a high value property, a cruise or great explorer package.  It turns out that legacy points and trust points cannot be combined .  So the legacy owners found themselves holding 1000 trust points that had minimal trading power and high MFs.  In many cases they only direvided decent trading power by banking the points from year to year until they could combine enough to be useful.  As recently as last year an MVCI sales person tried that pitch on us.  We told the sales person what our understanding was that the points could not be combined.  She then brought in a more senior member f the sale team to resolve the issue.  After hearing our concerns, that senior sales team member said that he was an owner of both trust and legacy points, and that from his own personal experience, he could confirmed that trust and legacy points can't be combined.  Maybe MVCI has found a way to fix that problem since then, but if they have we are unaware of it.
> 
> 
> If you want to read more about the problems at Marriott check out their forum focusing on threads in the 2010-2012 time period...but needless to say there are a number of disgruntled owners (both legacy and trust) over on that forum.



Boy  I not sure what to say BUT IMHO  most MVCI owners of legacy points have not had any of the problems you seem to be talking about. Marriott has done a great job in making weeks available to owners of both trust and legacy points.  YES officially the two kinds of pts can not be combined but in practice they are combined all the time.


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## Kburns3761

You started by saying that the salesman started by saying they wanted to sell *Maui*
and then said you were given a price sheet for *Kauai*.  Was that a typo?  If Kauai, what Hyatt TS is there?


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## DMSTWO

Kburns3761 said:


> You started by saying that the salesman started by saying they wanted to sell *Maui*
> and then said you were given a price sheet for *Kauai*.  Was that a typo?  If Kauai, what Hyatt TS is there?



Yes Kburns3761, you're correct.  I meant Maui.  I'll edit the post.  Thanks


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## DMSTWO

Bill4728 said:


> Boy  I not sure what to say BUT IMHO  most MVCI owners of legacy points have not had any of the problems you seem to be talking about. Marriott has done a great job in making weeks available to owners of both trust and legacy points.  YES officially the two kinds of pts can not be combined but in practice they are combined all the time.



Bill, I think it has a lot to do with the trades you are seeking, and how many units/points you have in the system.

We trade a lot.  I tried the destination points system a couple times and found I've had better luck depositing my MVCI 3bdr MGV platinum unit into II and using it to trade out, or even back into MVCI.  The real kick though is that I often find better trading power into Marriott with my Hyatt II deposits than any other approach.  We are empty-nesters so typically vacation outside the high demand periods.  Maybe this also affects our results

If you read through the page upon page of comments on the Marriott forum, I think you will still find a number of upset people.


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## Kal

DMSTWO said:


> Yes Kburns3761, you're correct. I meant Maui. I'll edit the post. Thanks



 Actually, Kauai was on the "prospective resorts list" before Hyatt bailed out.  My guess is ILG doesn't have much of a business plan for new construction.


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## Kburns3761

I'm going to my first-ever timeshare presentation at HRC Maui on November 15th.  Any details that you can share about the pricing/availability there?


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## kh3020

*Pure Points*

I'm a little confused. Does this Pure Points system mean that I won't be able to use my week anymore? I don't even trade throughout the Hyatt system, I just use my week and HSH because I love going down there. Can I keep my dedicated week?


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## TFTG

Kburns3761 said:


> I'm going to my first-ever timeshare presentation at HRC Maui on November 15th.  Any details that you can share about the pricing/availability there?



Info on HRC Maui you are looking for can be found in this thread: http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227415&page=3


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## Kburns3761

RandyS84 said:


> Info on HRC Maui you are looking for can be found in this thread: http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227415&page=3


Thank you.

Kathy B.


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## DMSTWO

kh3020 said:


> I'm a little confused. Does this Pure Points system mean that I won't be able to use my week anymore? I don't even trade throughout the Hyatt system, I just use my week and HSH because I love going down there. Can I keep my dedicated week?



Hi KH3020, there should be no effect on your use of your deeded unit and week.

For people like us that are current owners, the only effect is with the internal trading system.  

And even that should be the same among the existing resorts.

Where the impact may be felt is in the future when trying to trade into new properties that will be sold as points, rather than deeded units/weeks.


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## alexadeparis

Did they say what resorts, if any, are going to be "really" coming on line in the near future? There have been, according to Kal's page, a lot of resorts announced that no one ever heard about again, like Newport Beach, St Kitts, Manhattan, San Fran, Punta Cana, and Kauai, etc. 

Hyatt is certainly not alone in stalled timeshare projects, however, it seems that the larger systems have more folks on Tug with Intel. Is there a concise list of planned Hyatt projects that will ever actually see the light of day for HVC members to book?


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## peas

DMSTWO said:


> Hi KH3020, there should be no effect on your use of your deeded unit and week.
> 
> For people like us that are current owners, the only effect is with the internal trading system.
> 
> And even that should be the same among the existing resorts.
> 
> Where the impact may be felt is in the future when trying to trade into new properties that will be sold as points, rather than deeded units/weeks.



I'm grateful for those Hyatt/Marriott owners to make the parallel extrapolations from their experience with the Marriott conversion.

Unlike Marriott pre DC, Hyatt already has a point overlay set in place, so I don't know how much better the system would be with a new point system.  I guess the biggest added feature of a point system like would be a bank/borrow/transfer feature.

Like many Marriott owners at the beginning of their conversion, my big concern is that when deeded existing owners elect to internally trade their week, the prime weeks would somehow get selected to go into the new points system.  I get the sense that internal trading with Marriott is a little tougher nowadays though people still get what they want, but just not as easily (correct me if my impression is wrong; I don't look at the Marriott boards much).

I've been really happy with the internal trading system, and I'd be sad to see things change.


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## Kal

You might ask yourself the question "What's in it for the management company?"

From what I have observed elsewhere on the conversion from Weeks Ownership to a Points Program, it's all in the money. If true to form, there will be a SUBSTANTIAL FEE to existing HRC owners to make the shift.

To kick start the Pure Points program, ILG would likely:
- Get newbie Hyatt buyers to buy into the points program
- Gather inventory (thru ROFR, etc) to provide an inventory of units for points.
- Persuade existing owners to upgrade their ownership by purchasing points.

The combination of "points unit/weeks" and "legacy unit/weeks" might cause some deed issues. So implementation of the program could be difficult. However, to make it work, ILG would have to offer up new resorts to provide incentive to legacy owners to make the switch. Without new properties, the existing HRC program is already a points system, so there would be little reason for an owner to flip over, especially if big $$$$ FEES are required.

HRC owners who have attended the "Owners Update Meetings" have said ILG is "...aggressively taking ROFRs...". From my perspective I am aware that, in the last few weeks, at least one HRC unit sold on eBay for $1 made it thru ROFR. I'm not sure how ILG defines "aggressive". 

Does ILG have the financial backing to bring new resorts on line? I seriously doubt it would be thru new construction. Otherwise, they could purchase existing resorts in hopes those would be consistent with the "Hyatt Brand Name Quality".

Does this whole game change impact existing HRC owners??? IMHO, unlikely.


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## scsu_hockey_fan

Kal said:


> You might ask yourself the question "What's in it for the management company?"
> 
> From what I have observed elsewhere on the conversion from Weeks Ownership to a Points Program, it's all in the money. If true to form, there will be a SUBSTANTIAL FEE to existing HRC owners to make the shift.
> 
> To kick start the Pure Points program, ILG would likely:
> - Get newbie Hyatt buyers to buy into the points program
> - Gather inventory (thru ROFR, etc) to provide an inventory of units for points.
> - Persuade existing owners to upgrade their ownership by purchasing points.
> 
> The combination of "points unit/weeks" and "legacy unit/weeks" might cause some deed issues. So implementation of the program could be difficult. However, to make it work, ILG would have to offer up new resorts to provide incentive to legacy owners to make the switch. Without new properties, the existing HRC program is already a points system, so there would be little reason for an owner to flip over, especially if big $$$$ FEES are required.
> 
> HRC owners who have attended the "Owners Update Meetings" have said ILG is "...aggressively taking ROFRs...". From my perspective I am aware that, in the last few weeks, at least one HRC unit sold on eBay for $1 made it thru ROFR. I'm not sure how ILG defines "aggressive".
> 
> Does ILG have the financial backing to bring new resorts on line? I seriously doubt it would be thru new construction. Otherwise, they could purchase existing resorts in hopes those would be consistent with the "Hyatt Brand Name Quality".
> 
> Does this whole game change impact existing HRC owners??? IMHO, unlikely.



Perhaps the Hilton club?  According to some recent posts under Hilton, the Hilton club is up for sale?????  I doubt ILG has enough dough left over. That would be a nice addition if it were to come true.


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## DMSTWO

At the owner update, the Salesman stated that ILG already *owns* a number of other resorts that they intend into include in this points program.  I haven't bothered to research the claim that ILG has these other properties. 

The salesman's claim was that part of the motive for ILG buying the HRC was to leverage the Hyatt name to bring more recognition to these otherwise overlooked resorts.  Naturally, he also claimed there are a number of new resorts planned, but offered no real details.  

I would be more inclined to believe something to the effect of:  "ILG has *an affiliation/access* to a number of other great resorts through their II relationship and that they are hoping to leverage the HRC to help bring more recognition to some otherwise overlooked resorts."

It is interesting that today I ran across this post when researching changes to the Marriott Destination Club Points System:

Buying Marriott Destinations points

Here's a new wrinkle into the timeshare industry. My husband and I picked up a very inexpensive week at the Imperial Hawaiian Resort on Lewers Street in Honolulu--where we are at the moment. We went to an owner's forum and learned that Interval International is now going to a point system--which the Imperial is now going to use. Since our week is deeded we can keep things as they are, or pay Interval $2,995 to buy into the point system. They claim this will open up trades with all the companies that II has in their system. Has anyone out there had much success dealing with II for great trades? We certainly haven't and I strongly suspect that it's because the great properties have very little inventory to give II. Any thoughts?


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## TFTG

DMSTWO said:


> As an after thought he mentioned that they had just hired a new executive that was well versed in points based systems, having worked for one of their competitors.  I asked who that might be...his answer was Jeff Hansen a former MVCI Exec who had been a major player in the MVCI change to their points program.
> 
> I don't know Jeff but I surely recognized the name.  Hopefully Jeff brings lessons learned from the MVCI debacle and can help make HVC's program less problematic...but then again maybe my nightmares are well justified .
> .



Here's a link to the official announcement of the new executive you mentioned above: http://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...Vacation-Ownership-Appoints-Jim-Hansen-Senior

He came from Hilton and previously Marriott, so it looks like your analysis of this future program could be spot on...


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## TFTG

DMSTWO said:


> At the owner update, the Salesman stated that ILG already *owns* a number of other resorts that they intend into include in this points program.  I haven't bothered to research the claim that ILG has these other properties.
> 
> The salesman's claim was that part of the motive for ILG buying the HRC was to leverage the Hyatt name to bring more recognition to these otherwise overlooked resorts.  Naturally, he also claimed there are a number of new resorts planned, but offered no real details.
> 
> I would be more inclined to believe something to the effect of:  "ILG has *an affiliation/access* to a number of other great resorts through their II relationship and that they are hoping to leverage the HRC to help bring more recognition to some otherwise overlooked resorts."
> 
> It is interesting that today I ran across this post when researching changes to the Marriott Destination Club Points System:
> 
> Buying Marriott Destinations points
> 
> Here's a new wrinkle into the timeshare industry. My husband and I picked up a very inexpensive week at the Imperial Hawaiian Resort on Lewers Street in Honolulu--where we are at the moment. We went to an owner's forum and learned that Interval International is now going to a point system--which the Imperial is now going to use. Since our week is deeded we can keep things as they are, or pay Interval $2,995 to buy into the point system. They claim this will open up trades with all the companies that II has in their system. Has anyone out there had much success dealing with II for great trades? We certainly haven't and I strongly suspect that it's because the great properties have very little inventory to give II. Any thoughts?



A new developing story to all this...

ILG is buying Starwood and now is the exclusive global licensee of three top vacation ownership brands (Hyatt, Westin and Sheraton) and the license agreement for the Westin/Sheraton timeshare brands looks pretty good for Starwood, which Hyatt is rumored to be buying. 

From one of the press releases: Under the terms of the license agreement, Starwood will receive an annual base royalty fee of $30 million plus 2% of vacation ownership interest sales. 

Now for the timeshare/reservation/points side of things...this will be interesting to see how this all plays out? 
Will Interval Intl want to add the Westin/Sheraton brands to their newly announced "Pure Points Program" they discussed on their last earnings call or will that just be for the Hyatt properties or will we see a hybrid system of points that can be used across the brands in the future?


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## DMSTWO

Very interesting.  This could make cross trading easier for both Hyatt and Starwood owners.  It was always a challenge to cross trade between those two when it came to the more desirable resorts/seasons (i.e. spring training season at Kierlands Village).  This might open up more inventory.

I kind of believe, of the 3 premiere hotels brands in the TS arena, that the Hyatt interface with the pure points program will be the easiest transition.  I say this because Hyatt and II already used a points value approach to depositing/reserving in II, and all Hyatt resorts were on the same system.  This was in place right from day one.

Marriott on the other hand had no points based system for their legacy week owners.  Trying to fit these legacy weeks into a points system on an equitable basis is 
where they ran into challenges.

I don't know how the actual Starwoods to II exchange was structured. The internal trading at Starwoods does include a points based approach (StarOptions), at least for the "mandatory resorts."  Based on that, I would assume that there is already a points based structure for the II exchanges for the mandatory resorts.  Where the challenge might come in for Starwoods/II is how they treat the voluntary resorts and the ones in RCI.


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## Sicnarf

DMSTWO said:


> Very interesting.  This could make cross trading easier for both Hyatt and Starwood owners.  It was always a challenge to cross trade between those two when it came to the more desirable resorts/seasons (i.e. spring training season at Kierlands Village).  This might open up more inventory.
> 
> I kind of believe, of the 3 premiere hotels brands in the TS arena, that the Hyatt interface with the pure points program will be the easiest transition.  I say this because Hyatt and II already used a points value approach to depositing/reserving in II, and all Hyatt resorts were on the same system.  This was in place right from day one.
> 
> Marriott on the other hand had no points based system for their legacy week owners.  Trying to fit these legacy weeks into a points system on an equitable basis is
> where they ran into challenges.
> 
> I don't know how the actual Starwoods to II exchange was structured. The internal trading at Starwoods does include a points based approach (StarOptions), at least for the "mandatory resorts."  Based on that, I would assume that there is already a points based structure for the II exchanges for the mandatory resorts.  Where the challenge might come in for Starwoods/II is how they treat the voluntary resorts and the ones in RCI.




The voluntary comment above applies to resale purchase only.


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## jjs17

*Hyatt + Starwood = top premium system*

If ILG combines Hyatt and Starwood into one trading system outside of II it will increase the value of both systems (all properties).  Has anyone heard if that is a possibility where they would "re-value" the points for Starwood to match Hyatt or vice versa?  And obviously move all properties into one request / match platform.  I guess they could also do a point conversion ratio and not change Starwood's unit values (i.e. 1 Hyatt point = 80 Starpoints)


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## RichardL

We should all be so lucky.  I like exclusive groups if I don't have to pay the
price of admission.


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## Tucsonadventurer

I heard the more recent news is that the Chinese are very much still in the game so it may not be Hyatt. It should unfold in the next few weeks


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## jjs17

*Hyatt + Starwood = top premium system*

I was referring to the timeshare business.  The Chinese companies are not in the mix.  ILG closes on the Starwood transaction next year and has the ability to combine HVC and SVC if they choose to.


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## Tucsonadventurer

Thank you for the clarification.


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## MaryH

If they combine Hyatt and SVO, that might be interesting...  Although the 12 month window of the Hyatt can be a little limiting at times.


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## Guest123#

scsu_hockey_fan said:


> Perhaps the Hilton club?  According to some recent posts under Hilton, the Hilton club is up for sale?????  I doubt ILG has enough dough left over. That would be a nice addition if it were to come true.



My guess would be on Starwood (now Vistana Signature Experiences).  I did  a google search and it looks like the sale was finalized to ILG in mid-may.


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## lizap

I don't see this happening.




MaryH said:


> If they combine Hyatt and SVO, that might be interesting...  Although the 12 month window of the Hyatt can be a little limiting at times.


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## Guest123#

*Calling all Hyatt Owners*



DMSTWO said:


> DW and I went through an owner's update last week at Pinon Pointe.  Also had a relative with us who went through the typical sales pitch separately.
> 
> Would love to hear of other peoples experiences.
> 
> In our case the owner's sales rep started off by asking our timeshare history, and in particular what if any questions we had for him.  Once I demonstrated a good working knowledge of not only HVC but the TS industry as a whole, I told him our main interest in attending the update was to learn how things were going to change under ILG's (Interval Leisure Group) ownership.
> 
> He said, I think you will be happy with some of the new and exciting things happening now and that ILG is involved.
> 
> He did however, say that before we get into that aspect of our ownership that he needed to let us know that Pinon Point is virtually sold out, and that their current push was to sell the new Maui Property (as he handed me a listing of unit costs and MFs for Maui :hysterical.
> 
> He then said, that given my knowledge and practice of optimizing through the use of the "Highest Value/ Lowest MF model," that Maui probably wasn't something we would likely be interested in, but let him know after we had a chance to look over the pricing schedules.  Both he and the closer were nice guys.  The whole experience was relaxed and without high pressure tactics.
> 
> 
> He then launched in to the great new Pure Points Program (PPP) that ILG had started marketing just the week before.  Essentially, the new model going forward would be strictly a "pure points based program," rather than the current HVC model of "deeded weeks w/points based exchange program."  He touted the new program as offering greater flexibility, more trading opportunities...yadda, yadda, yadda.  He then tried to pitch selling some of the existing deeded weeks inventory in the existing properties, to "up" our total points availability (and thus a stronger trading position) in anticipation of the great new resorts that would become available under the new PPP.
> 
> We are also deeded week owners in the Marriott group and enrolled in their Destination Club Points conversion program.  I immediately started having nightmares of MVCI's 2010 transition to the Destination Club Points program.  The pitch from our HVC guy was almost vebatum the dialog heard from MVCI sales reps .
> 
> So, I asked him how week owner trading power (legacy points i.e. the 2000 we have for our Platinum 2Bdr Lock-off) would be treated as compared to the new PPP points.  His answer was just like MVCI's had been back in 2010..."points are points."
> 
> So I asked how had ILG managed to construct the program to avoid the problems of commingling deeded week points (Legacy), with deeded trust points (Trust).  He had no clue what the issue was and felt my concerns were baseless...again he felt "Points are Points."
> 
> I then explained that MVCI found out that they could not legally commingle points (as they are based on property interests vs trust interests and the respective underlying deeds prohibited such a transaction), and had to create two separate points programs within their Destination Club program (refered to as "buckets" on the TUG MVCI forum) this resulted in a trust bucket and a legacy bucket.
> 
> I further pointed out that the owners of points in one bucket could not directly book a unit in the other "bucket" so the promise of full reach of all properties was misrepresented.  When MVCI was confronted with this legal barrier they had to create a MVCI internal exchange program that created a third "bucket" the exchange "bucket."  So for a MVCI owner to exchange across the legacy/trust boundary, their interest (unit or points) had to be surrendered to the exchange bucket for trade.  Only those interests deposited in that exchange bucket were available for an owner to book if they were trying to trade across from the legacy properties to the trust properties, or vise a versa.  I also pointed out that it cost more points for a legacy owner to trade into their own home property than the points they received for their property (referred to as the Skim).
> 
> 
> He really had nothing to say, except I should bring up my concern with his associate (the closer).
> 
> I did bring up the issue with the closer but didn't mention MVCI.  He had no idea what I was talking about, had never even considered such concerns, and suggested I direct my questions to HVC management for a direct response.
> 
> He also asked that if I do send such an email, that he be copied on it and any responses, so that he could learn more.  When I asked who to address the email to, his response was just to send it to customer support.
> 
> As an after thought he mentioned that they had just hired a new executive that was well versed in points based systems, having worked for one of their competitors.  I asked who that might be...his answer was Jeff Hansen a former MVCI Exec who had been a major player in the MVCI change to their points program.
> 
> I don't know Jeff but I surely recognized the name.  Hopefully Jeff brings lessons learned from the MVCI debacle and can help make HVC's program less problematic...but then again maybe my nightmares are well justified .
> 
> A big problem that evolved over the course of time at MVCI was that sales people were peddling sales of trust points to legacy owners with the understanding that those points could be combined with the legacy points to expand their trading power.  For example, they would push a legacy owner into buying an additional 1000 points to add to the existing 2000 legacy points they had.  They stated that these combined points could then be used to trade for a high value property, a cruise or great explorer package.  It turns out that legacy points and trust points cannot be combined .  So the legacy owners found themselves holding 1000 trust points that had minimal trading power and high MFs.  In many cases they only derived decent trading power by banking the points from year to year until they could combine enough to be useful.  As recently as last year an MVCI sales person tried that pitch on us.  We told the sales person what our understanding was that the points could not be combined.  She then brought in a more senior member of the sale team to resolve the issue.  After hearing our concerns, that senior sales team member said that he was an owner of both trust and legacy points, and that from his own personal experience, he could confirmed that trust and legacy points can't be combined.  Maybe MVCI has found a way to fix that problem since then, but if they have we are unaware of it.
> 
> 
> Our relative that went through the non-owner sales pitch came back to the unit with a price sheet labeled something like "Hyatt Pinon Pointe Bronze Points Package."  As I recall, cost was $43,000 for 2600 points and the MFs were going to be appreciably higher than the current Pinon Pointe MFs.  This was also a phenomenon experienced at MVCI.  The trust based MFs must represent all property interests held in the trust, so MFs are an average of the MFs for all held units plus the additional administrative costs incurred as a result of having to manage the internal trading program between the buckets."
> 
> Another phenomenon that was seen at MVCI is that they discovered that some of the new points owners were mad because they had trouble trading into the older (sold out) resorts because deeded week owners were not typically surrendering their weeks into the exchange busket.  MVCIs response was to aggressively start exercising ROFR so that they could buy those deeded week and transfer them into the trust.  We are currently seeing a similar trend of HVC exercising ROFR.
> 
> If you want to read more about the problems at Marriott check out their forum focusing on threads in the 2010-2012 time period...but needless to say there are a number of disgruntled owners (both legacy and trust) over on that forum.




This morning I made a phone call to the Hyatt corporate office (1-727-803-9400) to inquire about the new rumored points system.  The purpose of the call was to see if I could get anyone to squeak out any new information out of them.  I told them I was highly considering purchasing a Hyatt week, but had heard about the new rumored points system that my "friend" was telling me about, who happens to own both Hyatt and Marriott.  And my "friend" was telling me all about the Marriott debacle back in 2010 when they did something similar. I asked her how they were going to deal with/ work around that issue that you cannot combine legacy points with trust points? The lady basically responded saying that she had no idea or knowledge of what I was talking about. I responded to that and asked why are the sales people at the resorts talking about it then? She then proceeded to transfer me to member services (1-800-Go-Hyatt).  When speaking to the member services rep., I went thru the same dialogue as with the 1st rep. from the corporate office and by no surprise he was clueless, and proceeded to transfer me back to the corporate office.  A lady answered the phone and I went thru the dialogue again and she turns out to be the lady I talked to the first time, (big surprise).... Then she led on to that she does know about it and is in the "loop" but can not discuss any of the details. She proceeded to say that "discussions are happening about how to co-mingle the points"...and "Hyatt is still a property based resort meaning that you have to invest in a particular resort". I took that as they are not selling "trust" points yet as a whole for the entire club.  Anyways, I ended the conversation by telling her to pass along my concern about the complexity of co-mingling the points and I see this having greater impact on the Hyatt system then what Marriott had seen, by the simple fact that Hyatt is a much smaller system to begin with.

Not sure if she will pass my concern along or not, but maybe if enough/more people call.., maybe they will stop and slow down and not mess this one up! and maybe mention Jeff Hansen's name, the former MVCI exec. they hired?

Good day!


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## lizap

I seriously doubt someone answering the phone is 'in the loop'..





Guest123# said:


> This morning I made a phone call to the Hyatt corporate office (1-727-803-9400) to inquire about the new rumored points system.  The purpose of the call was to see if I could get anyone to squeak out any new information out of them.  I told them I was highly considering purchasing a Hyatt week, but had heard about the new rumored points system that my "friend" was telling me about, who happens to own both Hyatt and Marriott.  And my "friend" was telling me all about the Marriott debacle back in 2010 when they did something similar. I asked her how they were going to deal with/ work around that issue that you cannot combine legacy points with trust points? The lady basically responded saying that she had no idea or knowledge of what I was talking about. I responded to that and asked why are the sales people at the resorts talking about it then? She then proceeded to transfer me to member services (1-800-Go-Hyatt).  When speaking to the member services rep., I went thru the same dialogue as with the 1st rep. from the corporate office and by no surprise he was clueless, and proceeded to transfer me back to the corporate office.  A lady answered the phone and I went thru the dialogue again and she turns out to be the lady I talked to the first time, (big surprise).... Then she led on to that she does know about it and is in the "loop" but can not discuss any of the details. She proceeded to say that "discussions are happening about how to co-mingle the points"...and "Hyatt is still a property based resort meaning that you have to invest in a particular resort". I took that as they are not selling "trust" points yet as a whole for the entire club.  Anyways, I ended the conversation by telling her to pass along my concern about the complexity of co-mingling the points and I see this having greater impact on the Hyatt system then what Marriott had seen, by the simple fact that Hyatt is a much smaller system to begin with.
> 
> Not sure if she will pass my concern along or not, but maybe if enough/more people call.., maybe they will stop and slow down and not mess this one up! and maybe mention Jeff Hansen's name, the former MVCI exec. they hired?
> 
> Good day!


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## Guest123#

If not, I bet their supervisor is....

Call and voice your concerns.....everyone!


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