# What percentage of 884,000 Owners are VIP?



## SNA27 (Jan 4, 2020)

I was curious to find out the ownership composition. WYND 10Q reports don't give any clues, just a headache!

But their Investor relations page has some interesting info. I am glad I am all paid up for 3 lifetimes in just 3 years! 






						Investor Relations, Wyndham Destinations, Inc.
					






					investor.wyndhamdestinations.com


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 4, 2020)

Who are these 185,000 owners paying 15% interest? Is money-lending the second oldest profession in the world? Very lucrative!



			https://s22.q4cdn.com/457996430/files/doc_financials/quarterly_reports/2019/q3/WYND-3Q-2019-10Q.pdf


----------



## CO skier (Jan 4, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Who are these 185,000 owners paying 15% interest?


185,000 owners who, obviously, purchased and financed through the developer, and zero owners who purchased resale.


----------



## ecwinch (Jan 5, 2020)

For a change of pace.. let’s try to stay on topic and minimize the verbal judo.


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 5, 2020)

I am trying! And I am trying my level best, in spite of provocations, to not lose my cool and get banned! 

I know for a fact that Wyndham employees are on TUGBBS and they can shed light on this composition! But, if you disparage them as shills, trolls or agents of Wyndham, you will never get them to post useful information! Wyndham has a great product, has great employees and to besmirch all of them based on anecdotal sales experience is very unfair, imo!

Hey, what happened to the judo, @ecwinch, didn't you think it was humorous repartee?

Btw, @ecwinch, I commend you for your concise and helpful posts! I already read from your post on the hidden RCI upgrade benefit to the VC. I am going to refer to it again when I call the again on Monday! Kudos from from a fellow IT-an! I hope you keep drilling the message 'correlation is not causation'! So obvious, yet so misunderstood!


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 5, 2020)

I wish reasale buyers would just enjoy their windfall and not keep indulging their schadenfreude against retail purchasers! Is that too much to ask? Think symbiosys instead of parasitism!

Based on the 10Q and the investor reports which gave me more headache than confidence, Wyndham will collapse without new retail purchase!

I hope @Fredflintstone would read the same and find reasons to cheer me up!


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 5, 2020)

This forum will be well-served if it makes itself hospitable to employees of Wyndham to contribute helpful information! The way I see it, you're scaring the horse whose mouth we would all love to glimpse!


----------



## Sandi Bo (Jan 5, 2020)

Wyndham doesn't like to disclose those numbers (the VIP numbers or resale versus developer ownership numbers). That's my understanding.


----------



## erniecrews (Jan 5, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> I was curious to find out the ownership composition. WYND 10Q reports don't give any clues, just a headache!
> 
> But their Investor relations page has some interesting info. I am glad I am all paid up for 3 lifetimes in just 3 years!
> 
> ...


I believe the 880000 owners includes Worldmark owners also.  Was the breakdown discussed at the owners meeting"


----------



## CO skier (Jan 5, 2020)

erniecrews said:


> I believe the 880000 owners includes Worldmark owners also.  Was the breakdown discussed at the owners meeting"


The number likely includes Shell owners, too.  There are 220,000 WorldMark owners.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Jan 5, 2020)

erniecrews said:


> I believe the 880000 owners includes Worldmark owners also. Was the breakdown discussed at the owners meeting"



This is correct. The term “Owners” also needs to be defined as their numbers report differently depending on what is being referenced. For example, there are often multiple owners on each account, and my understanding is the 880k number counts individual owners not owner accounts, but I have not validated this yet.

That said, here’s the slide from the annual owners meeting for Club Wyndham:






As you can see, as of end of 2018 - there were roughly 422k Wyndham “members”, or less than half of the often published 880k number. Are owners and members defined differently? Words and definitions matter especially when it comes to statistics. 

I’ve also directly asked two Wyndham execs independently about the number of resale owners - both said it’s around 20k total. In my conversations I got the sense this 20k is the number of resale ONLY owners, and is the actual number of owner accounts not the number of resale contracts. Even so, I find this hard to believe as it’s a small percentage of 422k. 

I haven’t asked about the subset of VIP owners, but will add this to my list of questions. I would also like to know the subset of VIPS, VIPG and VIPP. More to come when I know more. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 5, 2020)

When I read the 10Q reports and Investor reports and find no mention of their vaunted VIP program or the new Privileges program, it strikes me as a case of 'the dog that didn't bark'!
It's a striking and purposeful omission! Perhaps, it's nothing about which to shout from rooftops!

I plan to read the 10Q and other reports from HGVC, Marriott later today. At least HGV doesn't bury their Honors program! But their numbers are shrouded in mystery too! It's probably comparable to Wyndham Rewards rather than the WYND VIP proram. I hate all these deceptive powerpoints! A picture maybe worth a 1000 words but a powerpoint slide hides a thousand lies!

As @dgalati puts it, it's designed to daze and confuse!
Or, as we used to joke in my alma mater, if you can't 'dazzle them with your brilliance, just baffle them with your bs'!


----------



## cbyrne1174 (Jan 5, 2020)

20k sounds accurate for resale. I've never come across another resale only member casually talking in a hot tub etc. I only knew Wyndham had resale before my first purchase because I was originally looking into DVC resale for short getaways. Not many people are tech savvy to the point of knowing how to look up how to do something like that properly without getting scammed.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Jan 5, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> 20k sounds accurate for resale. I've never come across another resale only member casually talking in a hot tub etc. I only knew Wyndham had resale before my first purchase because I was originally looking into DVC resale for short getaways. Not many people are tech savvy to the point of knowing how to look up how to do something like that properly without getting scammed.



Good point, I suppose I’m used to being here on TUG where almost everyone is a resale owner. I’m a resale and retail owner myself. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 5, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> This is correct. The term “Owners” also needs to be defined as their numbers report differently depending on what is being referenced. For example, there are often multiple owners on each account, and my understanding is the 880k number counts individual owners not owner accounts, but I have not validated this yet.
> 
> That said, here’s the slide from the annual owners meeting for Club Wyndham:
> 
> ...




So, 'Owner' is a meaningless term. Member is the right metric. When I was reading the Investor slide, I was thinking of Owner and Member in interchangeable terms. Especially, when you see that 185K owners have a loan balance. So, that powerpoint slide contains a subterfuge. I wonder what SEC will have to say about this!

Btw, two execs quoting the same number really doesn't lend veracity to that number! Just that both read the same prep notes and talking points!


----------



## cbyrne1174 (Jan 5, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Good point, I suppose I’m used to being here on TUG where almost everyone is a resale owner. I’m a resale and retail owner myself.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I think the majority of people who post on here are a mix of retail and resale. Maybe we should do a poll?


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 5, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I think the majority of people who post on here are a mix of retail and resale. Maybe we should do a poll?



Also if you poll the VIP level at the same time, we can attempt to answer the question in my original post.
I hope I am not a Minority of ONE in the the subgroup VIPP with no resale!


----------



## geist1223 (Jan 5, 2020)

Also when you add in Worldmark (about 220,000+ a little, we have lost 30k to 40k) you have to decide are you talking Owners or Accout numbers.  Many Worldmark Members maintain 2 or more separate accounts.


----------



## CruiseGuy (Jan 5, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> I wish reasale buyers would just enjoy their windfall and not keep indulging their schadenfreude against retail purchasers! Is that too much to ask? Think symbiosys instead of parasitism!
> 
> Based on the 10Q and the investor reports which gave me more headache than confidence, Wyndham will collapse without new retail purchase!
> 
> I hope @Fredflintstone would read the same and find reasons to cheer me up!



Well, personally I think you are misguided in pushing so hard for people to buy retail, and that you are actually doing to resale owners what you accuse them of doing to retail buyers. Most of us resale owners do pretty much keep quiet in most cases because we recognize that someone had to buy retail before we could buy resale. We don't condemn those who buy retail. And we don't go to resorts and bother people when they are with the sales people. However, buying retail rarely makes financial sense for most people. And we do feel that when someone asks questions, or comes to these forums and online groups, that we should be pointing out the resale option and making them well aware of the pitfalls of buying retail for the average person. Retail mainly makes sense only if you can afford to pay cash and don't need a loan for the purchase or something else as a result, can afford to get to VIP and have the time and flexibility to use your points in a way that you can book in the discount window and get both the discounts and upgrades to justify the retail premium over the resale cost. Otherwise it's throwing away hard earned money because you're paying more for the points than you otherwise could.

Also, with respect to one of your previous posts. You indicated that people should buy full price from Wyndham to better support the resort. Once Wyndham develops a resort and makes significant progress in selling at that resort, buying from Wyndham when resale is available does absolute zero to support that resort. Especially after the resort is mostly or totally sold, and once retail contracts become available. It is primarily the owners who are paying the maintenance fees and program fees that support the resort, not Wyndham. Buying resale often, especially prior to the last couple years when Wyndham rolled out ovations, was one of the best things that could be done to help support the resort and existing owners. Without resale, many of those resorts would have suffered greatly from people trying to get out of their contracts who could no longer make maintenance fee payments, and those who would have simply stopped and taken the credit hit because they were no longer using their points.  Resale owners have done much to support the resorts and the overall program and to keep it affordable.  Without resale, many of the resorts would likely have had to raise their maintenance fees greatly to cover those that would not have been paid because resale owners bought the contract and started picking up the maintenance fees. It also would have hurt Wyndham retail sales because no one would buy a contract if word got out that you couldn't even give them away. Personally I believe that resale owners have a place and have been a great benefit to Wyndham and the resorts, despite what you seem to want to try to convince people to believe. There's room and a need for both retail and resale, at least until Wyndham agrees to buy back all contracts at a reasonable price.


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 5, 2020)

CruiseGuy said:


> Well, personally I think you are misguided in pushing so hard for people to buy retail, and that you are actually doing to resale owners what you accuse them of doing to retail buyers. Most of us resale owners do pretty much keep quiet in most cases because we recognize that someone had to buy retail before we could buy resale. We don't condemn those who buy retail. And we don't go to resorts and bother people when they are with the sales people. However, buying retail rarely makes financial sense for most people. And we do feel that when someone asks questions, or comes to these forums and online groups, that we should be pointing out the resale option and making them well aware of the pitfalls of buying retail for the average person. Retail mainly makes sense only if you can afford to pay cash and don't need a loan for the purchase or something else as a result, can afford to get to VIP and have the time and flexibility to use your points in a way that you can book in the discount window and get both the discounts and upgrades to justify the retail premium over the resale cost. Otherwise it's throwing away hard earned money because you're paying more for the points than you otherwise could.
> 
> Also, with respect to one of your previous posts. You indicated that people should buy full price from Wyndham to better support the resort. Once Wyndham develops a resort and makes significant progress in selling at that resort, buying from Wyndham when resale is available does absolute zero to support that resort. Especially after the resort is mostly or totally sold, and once retail contracts become available. It is primarily the owners who are paying the maintenance fees and program fees that support the resort, not Wyndham. Buying resale often, especially prior to the last couple years when Wyndham rolled out ovations, was one of the best things that could be done to help support the resort and existing owners. Without resale, many of those resorts would have suffered greatly from people trying to get out of their contracts who could no longer make maintenance fee payments, and those who would have simply stopped and taken the credit hit because they were no longer using their points.  Resale owners have done much to support the resorts and the overall program and to keep it affordable.  Without resale, many of the resorts would likely have had to raise their maintenance fees greatly to cover those that would not have been paid because resale owners bought the contract and started picking up the maintenance fees. It also would have hurt Wyndham retail sales because no one would buy a contract if word got out that you couldn't even give them away. Personally I believe that resale owners have a place and have been a great benefit to Wyndham and the resorts, despite what you seem to want to try to convince people to believe. There's room and a need for both retail and resale, at least until Wyndham agrees to buy back all contracts at a reasonable price.



Thank you for a thoughtful post! Here's what I had said about the importance of resale in another thread. Wyndham cannot grow without retail purchasers! 



SNA27 said:


> _*Your cup is half-full, not half-empty!*_ You get everything a NON-VIP retail purchaser gets! And even pay a lower program fee!
> I thought Plus-Perks is open to all with an annual membership fee! It's free for me now but I have never used it because it's not that useful!
> Wyndham Club Pass: I hate the idea of calling and finding out there is no availability. I hope they go to online self-service with everything! I don't like the $99 fee either.
> USA Today is a Perk? Funny! I would rather get the local newspaper, if at all!
> ...


----------



## cbyrne1174 (Jan 5, 2020)

geist1223 said:


> Also when you add in Worldmark (about 220,000+ a little, we have lost 30k to 40k) you have to decide are you talking Owners or Accout numbers.  Many Worldmark Members maintain 2 or more separate accounts.



"Members" also means how many people are on the deed. Since my husband isn't on any of my deeds, he's not a "member" so my membership only counts as 1, but most people include their spouses and adult children to increase that number.


----------



## geist1223 (Jan 5, 2020)

Wyndham also has a way of twisting numbers. Wyndham says every Worldmark Member is a Member of Club Pass. But only Worldmark Members that have Points that are WM+A or WTS can use Club Pass. In Wyndham can you maintain the different Points you have bought in totally separate Accounts? You have that option in Worldmark. This gives you more options on the Waitlist, Bonus Time, Inventory Specials, etc. Also possibly more House Keeping Credits and more Guest Certificates.


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 5, 2020)

geist1223 said:


> Wyndham also has a way of twisting numbers. Wyndham says every Worldmark Member is a Member of Club Pass. But only Worldmark Members that have Points that are WM+A or WTS can use Club Pass. In Wyndham can you maintain the different Points you have bought in totally separate Accounts? You have that option in Worldmark. This gives you more options on the Waitlist, Bonus Time, Inventory Specials, etc. Also possibly more House Keeping Credits and more Guest Certificates.




WAITLIST? What's that? I always wanted that feature in Wyndham! You mean to say, Worldmark was/is more advanced than Wyndham? But Worldmark properties are not as good as Wyndhams' though! When we went to Kona in July 2018, I first drove into Worldmark, an ugly looking place, thinking that was our resort! But I was politely and apologetically directed to a more beautiful resort further down the road! Night and day!


----------



## CO skier (Jan 6, 2020)

geist1223 said:


> Wyndham also has a way of twisting numbers. Wyndham says every Worldmark Member is a Member of Club Pass. But only Worldmark Members that have Points that are WM+A or WTS can use Club Pass.


This is not "twisting numbers."  This was simply to avoid creating two classes of members, in violation of California corporate law.

Cue:  @ecwinch


----------



## CO skier (Jan 6, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> WAITLIST? What's that? I always wanted that feature in Wyndham! You mean to say, Worldmark was/is more advanced than Wyndham?


Yes, in many ways.  That is why Club Wyndham Access is modeled on the WorldMark system.


----------



## kaljor (Jan 6, 2020)

And a pretty good system it is.


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

Why don't they combine it then? What is the point of a takeover if you can't assimilate it in a reasonable time!
Don't even get me started on this magical Blue Thread! BS! It's an inconclusively severed RED umbilical cord!
I always thought WYND was spun off from WH but 10Q states that WYND spun off WH. I will look at 10Q of WH tomorrow and I hope it doesn't say WH spun off WYND.


----------



## geist1223 (Jan 6, 2020)

Wyndham Destinations is the newer Corporate Creature. It was spun off Wyndham and created to formally "separate" the Hotel Side from the Timeshare/Resort Side. Wyndham is unable to totally assimilate Worldmark because of Worldmark's Founding Documentation/Rules.


----------



## Eric B (Jan 6, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Why don't they combine it then? What is the point of a takeover if you can't assimilate it in a reasonable time!
> Don't even get me started on this magical Blue Thread! BS! It's an inconclusively severed RED umbilical cord!
> I always thought WYND was spun off of WYN but 10Q states that WYND spun off WYN. I will look at 10Q of WYN tomorrow and I hope it doesn't say WYN spun off WYND.



If they just combined them they couldn’t use Club Pass as an incentive for retail purchases and would lose out on the $99 fee for use.  There are other timing issues as well.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Jan 6, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Why don't they combine it then? What is the point of a takeover if you can't assimilate it in a reasonable time!
> Don't even get me started on this magical Blue Thread! BS! It's an inconclusively severed RED umbilical cord!
> I always thought WYND was spun off of WYN but 10Q states that WYND spun off WYN. I will look at 10Q of WYN tomorrow and I hope it doesn't say WYN spun off WYND.



Because the legal trust documents that define each timeshare system don't legally allow for it.  This exact question was asked during the Q&A session at the annual owner's meeting and this was the exact answer given.  Unless a majority of owners from both Wyndham and Worldmark were to vote to combine the timeshare entities - it's not something that can simply be decided by Wyndham.  Wyndham has done some polling on this topic in the past and their data shows that there is no real appetite for doing so from either subset of owners - but especially not from Worldmark owners from what I've gathered.  Without the support of the actual owners, there's no way Wyndham can do anything.

There is work being done, again from what was discussed at the owner's meeting, to allow for automated searches and bookings using Club Pass.  The COO directly commented on this topic and said that the current manual booking program was something they chose to release as a stop gap to allow for something to exist between the two timeshare systems, with the understanding that further automated website booking capabilities will be coming in the future.  No specific dates were shared on when the website booking capability using Club Pass will be available, at least not that I can recall.


----------



## geist1223 (Jan 6, 2020)

I am not absolutely certain but I believe this is one of the votes the Developer (Wyndham) can not vote their Points. At least on the Worldmark side.


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

What would stop Wyndham from changing both the programs to be more and more alike and overcome the resistance to a complete merger?
Perhaps the Privileges program is an attempt to bring this to fruition! Who knows the mysterious ways of Wyndham gods!


----------



## dgalati (Jan 6, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> What would stop Wyndham from changing both the programs to be more and more alike and overcome the resistance to a complete merger?
> Perhaps the Privileges program is an attempt to bring this to fruition! Who knows the mysterious ways of Wyndham gods!


Not a chance this will happen, Worldmark does not have a VIP program and their maintenance fees are lower compared to Wyndhams . Worlmark/Wyndham owners can tell you the pros and cons of Worldmarks system compared to Wyndham's with the cost of VIP privileges.


----------



## schoolmarm (Jan 6, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> What would stop Wyndham from changing both the programs to be more and more alike and overcome the resistance to a complete merger?
> Perhaps the Privileges program is an attempt to bring this to fruition! Who knows the mysterious ways of Wyndham gods!



This won't happen because they would have to re-write EVERYBODY'S contract and all of the each resort's legal documents. And this could only happen after a vote of all the members, if at all. 

While I like having new posters on the forum, it is always a good idea for them to read through the old threads to have some historical or institutional memory. Especially before you are positioning yourself as an expert. Without this, you can give out mis-information or dredge up posits or arguments that have been fought, dismissed or discussed in the past...sometimes ad nauseum. It is also a good idea to get the "feel" for the forum and to know who the respected posters are and who is not respected. Aim to join the respected and wise. 

It is my hope that my fellow Ohioan, dgalati, and our new poster SNA27 can take some time to read more than they post on the forum as to avoid being irritating and being put on peoples' "ignore" list. People are busy. Most here love their timeshares. Most are also looking to stretch their points or add resale or PIC. And I hope that I am not too bold as to suggest that most of us really do not want Wyndham employees, especially those in sales, as active members of our forum. I've seen how the tone changes on the various Facebook groups when they are involved. I really don't think that it adds truth to our discussions. And I say this with over 10 years of experience with Wyndham. 

And, SNA27, without resale owners Wyndham would be in big trouble. Please stop your tirade against resale owners. One of the aims of TUG is to save people from spending too much on their timeshare by buying resale. Without the option to sell a deed, people would dump their ownerships and then MFs would go unpaid. Resale owners help out those who want to exit and relieve themselves of their MFs. And they help Wyndham by continuing to pay MFs and thus keeping costs down. And when I want to divest of my ownership, I certainly do NOT want to give my deeds back to Wyndham. I would much rather help out a young family or a bargain hunter with their foray into timesharing--and whether I choose to sell it for a reduced price or give it away is my choice.


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

Tirade against resale owners? Maybe you rethink that after reading what I wrote elsewhere!



SNA27 said:


> _*Your cup is half-full, not half-empty!*_ You get everything a NON-VIP retail purchaser gets! And even pay a lower program fee!
> I thought Plus-Perks is open to all with an annual membership fee! It's free for me now but I have never used it because it's not that useful!
> Wyndham Club Pass: I hate the idea of calling and finding out there is no availability. I hope they go to online self-service with everything! I don't like the $99 fee either.
> USA Today is a Perk? Funny! I would rather get the local newspaper, if at all!
> ...


----------



## schoolmarm (Jan 6, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Tirade against resale owners? Maybe you rethink that after reading what I wrote elsewhere!


Yes, I notice that you have changed your tune.  This does happen after living "here" for a while.  I appreciate your new "voice".  Thank you.  

But my statement stands...even though your last posts have softened, your probably lost some seasoned viewers by your earlier tirade. I know that I did not appreciate it.


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

So, your last post was a belated response to an imagined tirade from the past! Hmm!  

Btw, you're indeed too bold to suggest Wyndham employees should keep out! They're here and they're not interested in getting roughed up!


----------



## schoolmarm (Jan 6, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> So, your last post was a belated response to an imagined tirade from the past! Hmm!
> 
> Btw, you're indeed too bold to suggest Wyndham employees should keep out! They're here and they're not interested in getting roughed up!


We know that they are here.  They usually have not, in the past, been valuable or forthcoming in their posts. They can lurk all they want. In fact I suspect more than a few are actually in sales or management. 

I don't have the time to dig up your past posts (538 since the end of November--a bit much for a newbie, methinks), nor do I have the time to engage on the topic of your "bashing/dislike/tirade/whatever" about resale owners. Remember that the tone of your posts can be misread. Even with your smiley face above, I am reading you as arrogent, whether that is your intention or not. Just your Profile line NO CWA/NO RESALE oozes with Privilege and not in the Wyndham way. I usually try to post with some humor and I know that sometimes the tone is misread. 

In closing, I am happy to see that in the other threads you have softened up a bit and actually look like you are starting to fit in. I don't mean any ill will.

I'm a little stressed out because I leave Sunday for 4.5 months abroad on a Fulbright and my passport and Visa have not yet been returned to me. I've been on the computer more today then usual trying to get the Embassy over there to contact the Consulate over here. It's been 2 months and this is way longer that it should be taking. So if I appear edgy, it is not directed to anyone on this fora. Just "staying close" to the email for news. I should go pack some more.


----------



## schoolmarm (Jan 6, 2020)

Please forgive my typos....didn't catch them to edit.  I DO no how 2 spel


----------



## kaljor (Jan 6, 2020)

There was one poster some time ago who claimed to be a former salesman, and he had some interesting posts.  I'm not aware of any Wyndham employees posting here these days, but I'm sure that tons of them lurk here to find out information about the company.  They probably learn more about Wyndham from us than from their company!


----------



## Eric B (Jan 6, 2020)

schoolmarm said:


> ... I leave Sunday for 4.5 months abroad on a Fulbright and my passport and Visa have not yet been returned to me. I've been on the computer more today then usual trying to get the Embassy over there to contact the Consulate over here. ....



Congratulations!  Haven't done a Fulbright, but we have spent a number of years living abroad.  Paperwork is always a pain, though.

BTW, I always blame Bill Gates for spelling or usage errors, myself; I, two, due no how too spel.


----------



## Grammarhero (Jan 6, 2020)

schoolmarm said:


> This won't happen because they would have to re-write EVERYBODY'S contract and all of the each resort's legal documents. And this could only happen after a vote of all the members, if at all.
> 
> While I like having new posters on the forum, it is always a good idea for them to read through the old threads to have some historical or institutional memory. Especially before you are positioning yourself as an expert. Without this, you can give out mis-information or dredge up posits or arguments that have been fought, dismissed or discussed in the past...sometimes ad nauseum. It is also a good idea to get the "feel" for the forum and to know who the respected posters are and who is not respected. Aim to join the respected and wise.
> 
> ...


@SNA27 is an asset to this forum.  Please don’t personally attack him anymore, though it might not mean much coming from me.

Initially, @SNA27 and I disliked each other.  I called him a Wyndham shill and tool.  He called me a greedy parasite and shady TS-system gamer.  He apologized for his behavior.  However, we grew to like and respect one another.

If there’s anybody that wouldn’t forgive @SNA27, it would be I.  But I have.  He gives good Wyndham travel and TS tips, or at least I think so as a relative newbie.  It is an elitist view that anyone who isn’t an expert shouldn’t post.  How are we supposed to become experts unless we post and are corrected gently?

He started a poll that is sticky-worthy.  He also gives good insight on how Wyndham folks are thinking.  I used to think nearly all Wyndham salespeople were slimy liars.
@SNA27 helped me moderate this view.  He knows a Wyndham TS salesman with a wife dealing with dementia.  It never occurred to me that Wyndham TS salespeople were real people, although likely ethically compromised.

It’s New Years.  Let bygones be bygones.  And we can welcome new tuggers who have close relationships with Wyndham salespeople.  I’ve always been a fan of at least hearing, though not necessarily considering, other perspectives.  Otherwise, we would be in “tunnel vision.”

Back to my TUG Wyndham self-exile, as I’m not a Wyndham expert despite having 430k pts, so I supposedly should have no business posting here.


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

Some people seem to think anonymity is a license for bad manners and rude behavior! They indulge in personal attacks instead of sticking to the topic at hand! Such attacks are even LIKED! Smh!

Length of time on this BBS obviously isn't a measure of expertise just as the length of a beard isn't the measure of wisdom!  
How does one post here for so long and still haven't even learned how to use the GRAMMARLY help or to edit your post to correct spelling errors!


----------



## Grammarhero (Jan 6, 2020)

deleted


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

Grammarhero said:


> @SNA27 is an asset to this forum.  Please don’t personally attack him anymore, though it might not mean much coming from me.
> 
> Initially, @SNA27 and I disliked each other.  I called him a Wyndham shill and tool.  He called me a greedy parasite and shady TS-system gamer.  He apologized for his behavior.  However, we grew to like and respect one another.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your support!
I salute your 6-month infanthood on this forum and non-expert status it confers upon you! I am still crawling around making baby sounds annoying 10-year-old experts! 

But, I wish you would not jump to easy conclusions about the ethical compromise of an individual based on their occupational group!
They are real people. Individuals with their own circumstances! PERIOD. No need to dilute such recognition with pejorative qualifiers!
Lawyers, as a group, don't have a stellar reputation in general and especially when it comes to ethics! Please lock up those stones until you move from the glasshouse! haha!


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Jan 6, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Some people seem to think anonymity is a license for bad manners and rude behavior! They indulge in personal attacks instead of sticking to the topic at hand! Such attacks are even LIKED! Smh!
> 
> Length of time on this BBS obviously isn't a measure of expertise just as the length of a beard isn't the measure of wisdom!
> How does one post here for so long and still haven't even learned how to use the GRAMMARLY help or to edit your post to correct spelling errors!



Everyone has their respective strengths and weaknesses. Some folks care a lot about spelling and some don’t. Some are big picture idealist visionaries and some excel with tasks and detail orientation. Both add value just in different manners.

Always seek first to understand before being understood - and practice patience, humility and grace when responding. You have already both apologized to one another so I will humbly suggest practicing restraint and choosing not to further escalate back and forth. I know this is hard to put into practice when emotionally invested. We all have our weak moments, myself included. Mea Culpa moment here gents. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Jan 6, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Thank you for your support!
> I salute your 6-month infanthood on this forum and non-expert status it confers upon you! I am still crawling around making baby sounds annoying 10-year-old experts!
> 
> But, I wish you would not jump to easy conclusions about the ethical compromise of an individual based on their occupational group!
> ...



It’s also worth mentioning that while the sales executives at Wyndham practice plausible deniability with respect to the less than stellar sales practices, they are very aware of and in some cases even encourage the questionable sales practices employed by Wyndham sales reps. It’s not like there’s a lack of awareness of the questionable sales practices - Wyndham’s sales executives are by definition providing tacit approval by turning a blind eye in favor of revenue capture at the end of the day. 

Every now and again they employ people to covertly record sales reps in action and then periodically let sales reps go to employ a sort of containment policy to keep the sales staff in check just enough to keep things from flying out out of control and inviting class action lawsuits from all over the country. It is all very strategic and very much intentional in other words.

On some level I can understand the frustration expressed about lack of experience. I honestly don’t know what folks here think about me, but I’ve only been around since July 2018 timeframe myself and while I consider myself somewhat knowledgeable, in many circumstances I’ve found that assumptions I’ve made and questions I’ve asked have been answered many many times in past forum posts had I simply made the effort to search them out and spend the time to perform appropriate due diligence. One of the reasons I don’t post as much as I did early on is because I’m practicing restraint and learning from other long time members who, I think, oftentimes forgo replying on some threads to provide corrective advice because it just takes too much time and effort, especially when they have repeatedly done so for the exact same topics in the past. This is not to excuse accusatory replies to be clear, I’m simply trying to best understand where each forum member is coming from. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Jan 6, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Ok, let me ask you this! What is there to LIKE about @schoolmarm post' [Modified]



I liked her post because it contributes to the healthy back and forth, regardless how you or anyone else may feel about it. It also reminded me directly of what I outlined and reinforced - which is that I’ve been guilty of not taking the time to search for answers and to be patient and to learn from other long time Wyndham and forum members.

Context is everything. I didn’t “like” the post because of anything to do with you in other words - but that is the potential false assumption and personal interpretation you chose to embrace. Seek first to understand before being understood. I’m not in your head and you are not in my head. The internet is largely tone deaf - and considering up to 90% of direct human interactions when face to face consist of nonverbal communications - the written word leaves a lot open to false interpretations and assumptions.

I’d also humbly submit that your explicit overuse of exclamation points needs to be scaled way back. Exclamation points used on Internet forums are widely known to portray escalation, charged emotion, along with aggression and overt anger when used repeatedly in almost every sentence. I highly doubt you intend your posts to come across this way - and I personally am not interpreting your posts in this manner - but many other people will - and this alone could explain why people are prone to reacting to your posts in the manner that I’ve repeatedly observed. Just some constructive food for thought from one forum member to another.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## schoolmarm (Jan 6, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> Ok, let me ask you this! What is there to LIKE about @schoolmarm's personal attacks against me or her superficial inferences about my person or my oozing privilege! I am not the topic and she made it so! I am sure it violates the BBS rules! And she repeated her offense! And it was LIKED again! I wish you had admonished her first post on this thread!



SNA27 please read carefully....I was talking about how POSTS can be misread because of tone. I gave an example as to how the tagline in your profile suggests that CWA and RESALE are lower and not of the privilege that YOU hold. If I were attacking YOU, I would have said SNA27 is a (fill in the blank). There was NO name calling in my post, but perhaps my post is a good example as to how the tone of the post can be lost or misinterpreted because of the text basis. Just try to re-read your posts and you should be able to see it. In one of your posts you encouraged someone who was considering buying resale not to with something like "Why shop at Goodwill when you can shop at Macys" or something like that. If it was meant to be humorous it missed the mark. It also didn't really help the OP. I am trying to help you...and I "get" lawyers. My ex is a big-time lawyer and my current other half is a law professor.

Those who know me know that I post with humor, and truly do not harbor ill will towards anyone. I aim to be wise and to not stir the pot, but truly, I was trying to be gentle in letting you know how you and a couple of others are coming across. However, I may have to re-think that considering the bashing that I have gotten.

Hitchhiker's post is right on the mark. And Hitchhiker, (and also CByrne--maybe I've spelled that wrong) I am really impressed at how well you have integrated into the fora. I hope that I can soon say that about others.


----------



## cbyrne1174 (Jan 6, 2020)

schoolmarm said:


> SNA27 please read carefully....I was talking about how POSTS can be misread because of tone. I gave an example as to how the tagline in your profile suggests that CWA and RESALE are lower and not of the privilege that YOU hold. If I were attacking YOU, I would have said SNA27 is a (fill in the blank). There was NO name calling in my post, but perhaps my post is a good example as to how the tone of the post can be lost or misinterpreted because of the text basis. Just try to re-read your posts and you should be able to see it. In one of your posts you encouraged someone who was considering buying resale not to with something like "Why shop at Goodwill when you can shop at Macys" or something like that. If it was meant to be humorous it missed the mark. It also didn't really help the OP. I am trying to help you...and I "get" lawyers. My ex is a big-time lawyer and my current other half is a law professor.
> 
> Those who know me know that I post with humor, and truly do not harbor ill will towards anyone. I aim to be wise and to not stir the pot, but truly, I was trying to be gentle in letting you know how you and a couple of others are coming across. However, I may have to re-think that considering the bashing that I have gotten.
> 
> Hitchhiker's post is right on the mark. And Hitchhiker, (and also CByrne--maybe I've spelled that wrong) I am really impressed at how well you have integrated into the fora. I hope that I can soon say that about others.



I proudly shop at Good Will for myself and my daughter. I can proudly say that I dont spend more than $100 a year on clothes. I've seen family members make around 160k a year one year and 0 the next 7 years because of the 2008 recession and being "overqualified" and losing all their retirement  because they owned too expensive of a house that they couldn't get rid of from the market crash. I've seen people get cancer and lose everything just to stay alive. 

Everyone has their own opinion on luxury spending. I've personally just have had a lot of bad luck things happen to my family: layoffs, a missed miscarriage etc and I've learned to not have any expectations so I dont feel disappointment. If you spend more money on something, youd expect more out of it, but sometimes that expectation just leads to disappointment.


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I liked her post because it contributes to the healthy back and forth, regardless how you or anyone else may feel about it. It also reminded me directly of what I outlined and reinforced - which is that I’ve been guilty of not taking the time to search for answers and to be patient and to learn from other long time Wyndham and forum members.
> 
> Context is everything. I didn’t “like” the post because of anything to do with you in other words - but that is the potential false assumption and personal interpretation you chose to embrace. Seek first to understand before being understood. I’m not in your head and you are not in my head. The internet is largely tone deaf - and considering up to 90% of direct human interactions when face to face consist of nonverbal communications - the written word leaves a lot open to false interpretations and assumptions.
> 
> ...



It did occur to me that there might have been a 'nugget' in that otherwise inflammatory post that caught your fancy and had nothing to do with me. 

I understand your point about punctuation. I actually appreciate it. Thank you. It's a weakness I must work on. I love this Grammarly for correcting my punctuation.

In my defense, I must say that weakness arises from the fact that in my mother tongue, there is no need for punctuation marks. All that is required is 'space' between word clusters and 'full stop' between the sentences. Even a '?' mark is superfluous. No '!' mark either. In fact, in my mother tongue, words are used instead just as the flowchart below recommends.

I learned the English Alphabet at the age of 10 and studied English as a subject before I attempting to speak it at 16 in college. In my undergraduate years, the medium of instruction was English, I had to speak English since most of the student population spoke other languages and English acted as the link language.

English, especially colloquial English, is lost without it! An incredulous exclamation 'I shot the clerk?!' could become a confession 'I shot the clerk.' without correct punctuation. (My Cousin Vinny)


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> I proudly shop at Good Will for myself and my daughter. I can proudly say that I dont spend more than $100 a year on clothes. I've seen family members make around 160k a year one year and 0 the next 7 years because of the 2008 recession and being "overqualified" and losing all their retirement  because they owned too expensive of a house that they couldn't get rid of from the market crash. I've seen people get cancer and lose everything just to stay alive.
> 
> Everyone has their own opinion on luxury spending. I've personally just have had a lot of bad luck things happen to my family: layoffs, a missed miscarriage etc and I've learned to not have any expectations so I dont feel disappointment. If you spend more money on something, youd expect more out of it, but sometimes that expectation just leads to disappointment.



That reminds me of my late father. He used to tell us 'don't have expectations, so you won't be disappointed'.
He also reprimanded me that I was too young to have 'likes and dislikes'.
He had this 'essential and urgent' test for any purchase. Not essential, forget it. Essential but not urgent, we will think about when it becomes urgent. Haha, it usually meant never!
So, I just observe that rule for myself but let my wife (who was more affluent growing up) spoil our children! They spend money like water, like real Americans. Good for the economy, I guess.
Btw, I never shop at Nordstrom, just so you don't mistake my metaphor. 

Going by the E&U rule, Wyndham TS was neither! So, I am nonplussed as to what magic spell Wyndham guy at Maui cast upon me in 2016.
I guess when you have postponed your 'present' rewards for 'future' ones all your life, you fall for a guy who says my resplendent future is right here, right now. Smh.

Ok, @HitchHiker71, please give me feedback on my use/abuse of '!" marks. I am serious, I want to get the hang of it.   DM me, if you like.


----------



## geist1223 (Jan 6, 2020)

If/When you read a Post that you think is attacking you or your thoughts try not to respond. Simply dip your shoulder and let it slide by. Take a deep breath and hold it for the count of 20. Then simply move on. When someone cuts me off in traffic I can get upset. I could try and respond. But what good does it do me. Or I can say to myself that person obviously has a need I do not understand and lower my blood pressure.


----------



## ecwinch (Jan 6, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> What would stop Wyndham from changing both the programs to be more and more alike and overcome the resistance to a complete merger?



As is mentioned, they cannot change the programs because the WM governing documents prevent them from doing so. 

Keep in mind that the Club Wyndham Plus is a "Club of Clubs". They certainly could add Worldmark as one of those Clubs. 

But central to how Club Wyndham Plus is the ability of all Clubs to make reservations outside their Club at the 10 month mark. In some cases that is directly built into that Club's governing documents (i.e. CWA), or by the deeded owner assigning their usage rights to the Club in exchange for points. 

Neither is true or even possible with WM under the governing documents. So WM owners would have to consent by a 50%+ majority of the total voting power (excluding the developer) to modify the governing documents. Which would be very difficult to accomplish.


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 6, 2020)

@HitchHiker71, I just realized the probable cause of my mistake. In Sanskrit and Hindi, the 'half-stop' and  'full stop' are indicated by '|' or  '||' respectively. There is no such symbol as '.' I must have been inadvertently using '!' as an approximation for '|'. I am really going to get a handle on this punctuation intricacy. I thank you for pointing out the error in my punctuation.

Btw, seriously, what do you think about half-liners and one-liner nonsequiturs on this forum? Or the rambling run-on sentences of streaming consciousness that give you a bigger headache than a 10Q report.

I have read a lot of threads on this forum in the past month as if I am doing a crash course. I find it so tedious to wade through so much chaff full of off-topic nonsequiturs and nonsense to find some grains of wisdom! 

Do you think any newbie will have the perseverance required to hunt through those threads to find the needle in the haystack! That's not 'due diligence', it's an 'archeological adventure'.
Stickies are the best but I would expunge quite a bit of useless posts from them too.

So, any advice to newbies to do due diligence and search through the forum must take cognizance of these limitations, imo.

Did you notice that I didn't abuse any '!'? I am learning fast.


----------



## ecwinch (Jan 6, 2020)

*Moderator Note: *

I want to remind everyone on the proper procedure for handling posts that violate TUG rules. If you find a post to be improper then the proper action is to report that post. This is outlined in the rules we all agreed to when we joined TUG:

*Avoid replying to messages to point out bbs rule infractions*



> _Leave this to BBS Administrators and Moderators. When you jump in, it makes for even more work on the part of the administrators to clean up the mess. If you feel a message is improper, you may report it to the BBS Staff by clicking on the "report" link at the bottom of the message._


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 7, 2020)

ecwinch said:


> As is mentioned, they cannot change the programs because the WM governing documents prevent them from doing so.
> 
> Keep in mind that the Club Wyndham Plus is a "Club of Clubs". They certainly could add Worldmark as one of those Clubs.
> 
> ...



Dang! @ecwinch, you pack so much in your concise posts! It's a lot to process.
How can a club in the 'club of clubs' build into its governing document a reciprocal arrangement? Wouldn't that be negotiated at the time a club joins the 'club of clubs'?

Since my previous residence is in an HOA, I am aware of the power of the developer to encumber the HOA with CC&Rs that are inimical to the HOA. We have been encumbered by CC&R to pay for the road-paving costs of a neighboring HOA. A fair solution would for the 2 HOAs to merge but it will never happen because that HOA managed to get our HOA encumbered by CC&R to pay their costs. All because our developer shared 1000 feet of road with them so he could build a few more units. And they use our roads more than we use theirs. We sued and lost! CC&R won!

The point I am trying to make is that an HOA or a club of HOAs are sovereign entities that can govern themselves without the developer exercising his influence to encumber them is a myth!


----------



## ecwinch (Jan 7, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> The point I am trying to make is that an HOA or a club of HOAs are sovereign entities that can govern themselves without the developer exercising his influence to encumber them is a myth!



Which is true and easy to do if the developer is there when the governing documents are crafted. Which they have been for Clubs that makes up Club Wyndham Plus. But not true for Shell Vacation Club and Worldmark. Therein lies the difference that makes your example an apples to oranges comparison.


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 7, 2020)

ecwinch said:


> Which is true and easy to do if the developer is there when the governing documents are crafted. Which they have been for Clubs that makes up Club Wyndham Plus. But not true for Shell Vacation Club and Worldmark. Therein lies the difference that makes your example an apples to oranges comparison.



All developers anticipate future acquisitions and mergers and I bet their clever lawyers include fine print to cover that inevitability. Would Wyndham have acquired WM without doing due diligence as to these issues? I think we underestimate the power of Wyndham and give too much credence to the voting power of owners. It's an illusion or delusion on the part of owners. Developers are no fools to cede so much power to the owners to prevent future possibilities.


----------



## ecwinch (Jan 7, 2020)

Is this an informed opinion or your speculation? aka have you ever seen the WM governing documents?


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 7, 2020)

Pure speculation or intelligence gathered from experience. My gut tells me the developers have covered themselves for all eventualities!
We talk about Governing Document as if it's Gospel. Realistically, how many have read either? I never read the 500-page CC&R before I bought my previous residence.
Call me cynical, I think owners don't realize they will be made an offer they can't refuse.


----------



## ecwinch (Jan 7, 2020)

As Stan Lee would say "Nuff Said"


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 7, 2020)

Who's Stan Lee? Is he the guy Sheldon of BBT manages to get a restraining order from?


----------



## Jan M. (Jan 7, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> @HitchHiker71, I just realized the probable cause of my mistake. In Sanskrit and Hindi, the 'half-stop' and  'full stop' are indicated by '|' or  '||' respectively. There is no such symbol as '.' I must have been inadvertently using '!' as an approximation for '|'. I am really going to get a handle on this punctuation intricacy. I thank you for pointing out the error in my punctuation.
> 
> Btw, seriously, what do you think about half-liners and one-liner nonsequiturs on this forum? Or the rambling run-on sentences of streaming consciousness that give you a bigger headache than a 10Q report.
> 
> ...



I can relate to what you are saying about wading through past threads. When I joined TUG we had already been Wyndham owners for 8 years, were already platinum, I knew how to use the website, and booked and cancelled my own reservations without calling a VC to hold my hand. From talking to other people at the resorts it became obvious to me that there was more I didn't know and searching online for more information led me to TUG. When I was new to TUG and reading back through the threads I often had a hard time even understanding a lot of what I read. I didn't know the people posting or their timeshare backgrounds/opinions.  I didn't know their histories with each other. It was like coming into a movie with a very complex plot half way through. You can figure some things out as you go but it isn't easy and when the movie ends you know you didn't get everything. And to make it worse when I was trying to search out something specific in the threads I had a very hard time. I still do!

If this has already been covered I apologize but a little context and history might be helpful. There are a lot of owners who follow the threads and rarely post or have stopped posting. And they have good reasons, usually being offended, disgusted or just done.  Sometimes newbies come in with their own axes to grind  or with stances that may not be as well informed as they think.  Some don't take well to having others point out to them how they are wrong or not as knowledgeable as they think they are. A good description is what the people who have read all the Harry Potter books and have usually seen the movies too think and say about the people who have only seen the movies and are talking about how they love or hate the movies. The people who have read all the books think and often say something like " You know nothing and please just stop talking now. You don't even have any idea about how much you missed by not having read the books."  I was managing a movie theater during the years the Harry Potter movies came out and I heard so many of those comments and discussions. Btw, I've read all the books in case anyone was wondering, Lol. Not an expert on them any more than I am on knowing all there is to know about timeshares. Like a lot of other people I wouldn't be wasting my time on TUG if I wasn't interested knowing as much as I can about the timeshares we have and staying on top of any changes. Some people seem to want to use TUG for their own entertainment rather than being an asset in making productive posts or adding value to discussions which also offends, disgusts and makes other people just want to be done with TUG at times.

There is one lesson I apparently learned much easier than you and a few others appear to be learning. That is to listen, learn and not take offense when a longer time well respected member explains to you how you are mistaken, incorrect in some detail, that for whatever reason you need to step back with what you are saying or need to think about how you are responding. Online lacks the nuances of person to person discussion as we all know. Plus not everyone is good at putting things into words, particularly written. Without as many of the long time members posting these days it can be very difficult to figure out who consistently has the best advice or will point you to someone who can better answer a question. In talking face to face it is much easier to get a feel for who has an agenda, who is the player or poser and who is the real deal.

Unfortunately sometimes we get judged unfairly because of the history of the discussion on a topic or the histories of certain people. It takes time to learn these things. Btw if someone disagrees with you there is nothing wrong with asking them to expand on or explain their reply in a less confrontational way or without what feels to you like  a personal attack. They may not have intended that you should feel that way and will usually make that clear if you give them a chance. Being wrong, misinformed, or whatever in one instance or on one topic doesn't make you wrong about everything. Many of us have been there so you have plenty of company in that, lol! Just own it, don't let others rub your nose it in forever and a day and move on.

That last part made me think about Ron P. again. If we went back on the threads to when he first started on TUG I seriously doubt he started out with the expertise we came to credit him with having. And I know for sure because I remember from after I joined that not everyone was a fan of him or thought he was right about some things.

Some people are very judicial in their use of their likes on comments. Others hand them out freely in an effort to garner support.


----------



## dgalati (Jan 7, 2020)

> @HitchHiker71, I just realized the probable cause of my mistake. In Sanskrit and Hindi, the 'half-stop' and  'full stop' are indicated by '|' or  '||' respectively. There is no such symbol as '.' I must have been inadvertently using '!' as an approximation for '|'. I am really going to get a handle on this punctuation intricacy. I thank you for pointing out the error in my punctuation.
> 
> Btw, seriously, what do you think about half-liners and one-liner nonsequiturs on this forum? Or the rambling run-on sentences of streaming consciousness that give you a bigger headache than a 10Q report.
> 
> ...


Way off topic now. This is a good example of why newbies need to ask questions instead of reading and filtering through all the off topic posts!!!!!!


----------



## schoolmarm (Jan 7, 2020)

For those of you who are reading old threads, you might find the search tool (although clunky) a little bit useful. OR look at long threads on topics of interest. OR look at short threads that are on a specific topic you are interested in.  Search before you ask. 

Jan's post is spot on.


----------



## ecwinch (Jan 7, 2020)

As the moderator of this forum, I have always tried to strike the balance between having to be the crossing guard and the police officer, with a bias to facilitating discussion rather than shutting it down. Recent activity has had me acting more like a police officer, which I will do, but would rather not.

And increasingly I find myself being asked to be more like a NBA referee, with players trying draw contact and then immediately pleading get a foul called on someone else. I think very few of the people who frequent these forums finds that behaviour interesting.

To sum up the sentiment of past few pages....   listen more, talk less. Google is your friend.


----------



## dgalati (Jan 21, 2020)

@SNA27 curious if you have results on this poll?


----------



## bobinmich (Jan 21, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> 20k sounds accurate for resale. I've never come across another resale only member casually talking in a hot tub etc. I only knew Wyndham had resale before my first purchase because I was originally looking into DVC resale for short getaways. Not many people are tech savvy to the point of knowing how to look up how to do something like that properly without getting scammed.


My brother bought nearly 1million RETAIL points...he's been bragging up Wyndham for nearly 20 years.....then I found some on ebay 2 years ago, 238k for 596.00 and 91/month MF.....Then I told my 2 sisters, who BOTH bought resale on ebay.  Then last year, I added another small 126k resale contract from ebay.  My brother doesn't regret ANY of the cost he has paid,...but...he will only buy RESALE now if he decides to buy more.  WE NEED RETAIL buyers to keep the horse in front of the cart.


----------



## SNA27 (Jan 22, 2020)

@bobinmich, ride the cheap seats in the carriage! Don't you ever try to get on the horse, they kick! And they know where bears relieve themselves! Neighhhhh! 

That was a reference to your ability to wring out very low $/night! I am sure your VIPP brother can get even lower $/1000 with his 50% discount and upgrades if he applies your methods. Not counting capital costs of course. I used your metric and came up with ~$66/per night on all my reservations. But that doesn't measure the VIP multiplier effect.


----------



## raygo123 (Jan 22, 2020)

cbyrne1174 said:


> 20k sounds accurate for resale. I've never come across another resale only member casually talking in a hot tub etc. I only knew Wyndham had resale before my first purchase because I was originally looking into DVC resale for short getaways. Not many people are tech savvy to the point of knowing how to look up how to do something like that properly without getting scammed.


One thing that you must take into consideration is the fact that the number of owners on this site, although large, is not a sampling of the whole. Neither are we typical. 

As far as how many VIPs are there, Wyndham's goal was 25%. My Guess less than half that. Does it matter? To me what's important is what is Wyndham going to do for me today? 

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati (Feb 4, 2020)

When do you post the results?


----------



## dgalati (Feb 14, 2020)

SNA27 said:


> @bobinmich, ride the cheap seats in the carriage! Don't you ever try to get on the horse, they kick! And they know where bears relieve themselves! Neighhhhh!
> 
> That was a reference to your ability to wring out very low $/night! I am sure your VIPP brother can get even lower $/1000 with his 50% discount and upgrades if he applies your methods. Not counting capital costs of course. I used your metric and came up with ~$66/per night on all my reservations. But that doesn't measure the VIP multiplier effect.


I like the expensive seats but only want to pay the cheap price. The use of airline miles is a great example. Southwest has a companion pass which works great and nothing better then flying 1st class while using bonus points with United, Delta and American. I have played them all the same way just like I have played Wyndham. Find a way to make it work to your advantage.


----------



## dgalati (Feb 27, 2020)

@SNA27 Can you add to the post above with a little more clarity?


----------



## raygo123 (Feb 27, 2020)

WeEden11 said:


> This things are hard to calculate by yourself and I think the fastest way is to use a percentage increase calculator that can help to calculate the percentage using a minimum number of percent that you would like to put.


In respect you must also make an adjustment for drop off as a percentage of what you stated. In your example are you using a mini max in calculation? If so what is your derivative?

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## hunter_hunted47 (Mar 2, 2020)

WeEden11 said:


> I want to continue my words. So this things are hard to calculate by yourself and I think the fastest way is to use a percentage increase calculator that can help to calculate the percentage using a minimum number of percent that you would like to put. Since I prefer to do the work quickly (I am a financial manager) I am using it most of the times but since my math is not soo good I have used a tip about "how to work out percentage increase" that helped me out to save my personal time for the rest.


Thanks for the tip dude!


----------



## raygo123 (Mar 2, 2020)

WeEden11 said:


> I want to continue my words. So this things are hard to calculate by yourself and I think the fastest way is to use a percentage increase calculator that can help to calculate the percentage using a minimum number of percent that you would like to put. Since I prefer to do the work quickly (I am a financial manager) I am using it most of the times but since my math is not soo good I have used a tip about "how to work out percentage increase" that helped me out to save my personal time for the rest.


But a base line would have to be set. It would be an additional unknown percentage. All we know is the year VIP started and there were zero. It would be simply easier to follow Wyndham grow in number of owners. Assume the percent otherwise you have too many variables. Problem is, assuming the percentage to begin.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati (Mar 2, 2020)

Hey @SNA27  what happened why are you not posting any more?


----------



## raygo123 (Mar 3, 2020)

I have used a very technical analysis. I HAVE found the right answer. 100% all of them are VIP.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati (Mar 3, 2020)

raygo123 said:


> I have used a very technical analysis. I HAVE found the right answer. 100% all of them are VIP.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


What is your margin of error?


----------



## raygo123 (Mar 3, 2020)

dgalati said:


> What is your margin of error?


√.00015437698%. One owner is still wondering what he bought.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## Richelle (Mar 3, 2020)

raygo123 said:


> √.00015437698%. One owner is still wondering what he bought.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



Only one? Are you sure you don’t want to recalculate those numbers?


----------



## Eric B (Mar 3, 2020)

raygo123 said:


> √.00015437698%. One owner is still wondering what he bought.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



Hmmm; looks to me like you forgot to carry the 3....


----------



## raygo123 (Mar 3, 2020)

Eric B said:


> Hmmm; looks to me like you forgot to carry the 3....


No, that is a square root sign in front. Duh.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati (Mar 4, 2020)

raygo123 said:


> No, that is a square root sign in front. Duh.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


Either way it is a very small margin.


----------



## raygo123 (Mar 4, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Either way it is a very small margin.


I'm working on a new formula equation if you will, to determine if when a VIP uses Ovations and leaves does the percentage change, or remain at 100%.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati (Mar 4, 2020)

raygo123 said:


> I'm working on a new formula equation if you will, to determine if when a VIP uses Ovations and leaves does the percentage change, or remain at 100%.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


What happens if a VIP adds another to the ownership other then a family member will this change the results?


----------



## raygo123 (Mar 4, 2020)

dgalati said:


> What happens if a VIP adds another to the ownership other then a family member will this change the results?


Let's not become foolish. 

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk


----------



## Eric B (Mar 4, 2020)

raygo123 said:


> Let's not become foolish.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk



Don’t worry.


----------



## dgalati (Mar 4, 2020)

Eric B said:


> Don’t worry.


Theres always a ass for that seat?


----------

