# Noobie...Westin Mission Hills & misc. questions



## TUG Talker

First, I've been doing some reading of the various, excellent FAQs and resources, as well as posts, and am very happy to have found this forum.

We just purchased and then cancelled a 2 bedroom lockout at the Maui Ka'anapali Ocean Resort North.  Bought it Wednesday (I lost control of my wife in the sales presentation  ) but sent in the rescission form today to cancel the sale under the 7 day limit.    The information on this site was of great use in persuading her that cancelling was the right thing to do, so thanks in advance for that!   

We were talking about what we would really like in a timeshare...how much we'd like to spend and where we would want to go repeatedly, and agreed that we really aren't interested in Hawaii.  We like it there, but not enough to go every year, or even every other year.  We live in San Diego, so we have plenty of good weather and beaches already.... 

We came up with the Westin Mission Hills Resort in Rancho Mirage, CA (near Palm Springs) as one potential.  We go to the nearby Pacific Life Open (major professional tennis tournament) in Indian Wells each year, which is only a 15 minute drive away, and the Mission Hills resort info mentions tennis courts and a "tennis program" so that might be a good fit.  

We'd spend five to seven days at Mission Hills to see the tournament, play some tennis, and do some relaxing, and then try to trade to some other sites for the other days.  We live only a couple hours away from the resort, so it's easy access, which we like.  

My "noobie" questions are: 

 - From what I've read, if we buy resale, then we lose the ability to convert our resort Star Options points to hotel star points for hotel stays.  We could still use the Starwood program to try to trade for other Starwood resorts, could rent our unit, or also use II, etc.  have I got that right? 

 - How can I find out what the annual MF (see, I'm learning the acronyms!) is for the Mission Hills resort?  It appears to be approx. $1,200, but was looking for a way to confirm that. 

 - Anyone know anything about the courts/program at Mission Hills?  I found some information on it, and it sounds pretty good, but was wondering if anyone here had experienced it...

 - What's a good way to find out what other timeshares are available in the same area that might fit our needs?  

 - We like the 2 BR lockout option, and would likely split the rooms - use 1/2 of our "villa" for the tournament, and try to trade the other half for a stay in another resort each year.  How likely are we going to be to be able to get into another location on an annual basis?  

Any comments on our thought process and key things to beware, avoid, or focus on would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!


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## TUG Talker

OK...think I've answered one of my questions..went back to one of the resources here (remembered reading about mandatory and voluntary memberships) and found this below...I assume that means that if I buy Westin Mission Hills resale, that I would not be able to trade w/in the Westin program, but would have to use II, or private-party trade/exchange, or some other third-party exchange.  Is that right? 



> SVN membership voluntary for developer buyers; not available to resale buyers
> 
> 
> 
> Vistana Resort
> Broadway Plantation
> Desert Oasis
> Lakeside Terrace
> PGA Vacation Resort
> Mountain Vista
> Westin Mission Hills


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## tomandrobin

TUG Talker said:


> - From what I've read, if we buy resale, then we lose the ability to convert our resort Star Options points to hotel star points for hotel stays.  We could still use the Starwood program to try to trade for other Starwood resorts, could rent our unit, or also use II, etc.  have I got that right?



Mission Hills is a voluntary resort. You would have to requalify the unit to use Staroptions.



TUG Talker said:


> - How can I find out what the annual MF (see, I'm learning the acronyms!) is for the Mission Hills resort?  It appears to be approx. $1,200, but was looking for a way to confirm that.



That is about right. 



TUG Talker said:


> - Anyone know anything about the courts/program at Mission Hills?  I found some information on it, and it sounds pretty good, but was wondering if anyone here had experienced it...



Can't help here.



TUG Talker said:


> - What's a good way to find out what other timeshares are available in the same area that might fit our needs?



There are several nice resort in that area. You can do a search on this site of the resorts in that area. There will be a new Westin to be built there that will be going on sale soon.



TUG Talker said:


> - We like the 2 BR lockout option, and would likely split the rooms - use 1/2 of our "villa" for the tournament, and try to trade the other half for a stay in another resort each year.  How likely are we going to be to be able to get into another location on an annual basis?



This all depends on when and where you want to travel. A platinum unit at Mission Hills should trade fairly well in II. The problem is using Starwoods II account.



TUG Talker said:


> Any comments on our thought process and key things to beware, avoid, or focus on would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!



Read as much as you can here on Tug. Read the stickys at the top of this forum and ask all the questions you can think of before buying.


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## turkel

The Westin resorts are really nice.  But very expensive with some of the highest Maintanence fees.  They also are very punitive to resale buyers.

Have you looked at any of the Marriotts?  They have 3 in Palm Springs.  All of which have lock-outs ( 2 bed that split into 1 bed and a studio)  They have far more locations, their fees are lower (although not by much) with taxes I believe all 3 of the PS resorts are still under $1000/YR.  The only option you lose as a resale buyer is the option to trade for Marriott reward points instead of using your unit.  Which most will tell you is not a good deal.

I would highly recommend Marriott as an alternative to Westin.  And you should buy resale and save thousands.

Good luck Pam


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## pointsjunkie

the starwood 2 br l/o,has 2 br not a studio. each has separate master br.the resort is lovely, we were there the day it opened. we were the first family to sleep in the beds.


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## TUG Talker

pointsjunkie said:


> the starwood 2 br l/o,has 2 br not a studio. each has separate master br.the resort is lovely, we were there the day it opened. we were the first family to sleep in the beds.



Thanks...that is something we were wondering about, it appeared from the floor plan that the "small" part of the lockout wasn't a studio as in Hawaii, but actually had a separate bedroom as well.


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## TUG Talker

turkel said:


> The Westin resorts are really nice.  But very expensive with some of the highest Maintanence fees.  They also are very punitive to resale buyers.
> 
> Have you looked at any of the Marriotts?  They have 3 in Palm Springs.  All of which have lock-outs ( 2 bed that split into 1 bed and a studio)  They have far more locations, their fees are lower (although not by much) with taxes I believe all 3 of the PS resorts are still under $1000/YR.  The only option you lose as a resale buyer is the option to trade for Marriott reward points instead of using your unit.  Which most will tell you is not a good deal.
> 
> I would highly recommend Marriott as an alternative to Westin.  And you should buy resale and save thousands.
> 
> Good luck Pam



Thanks.  We did stay at a Marriot villa resort unit last year (Shadow Ridge, I think) that had a similar lock-out setup, but we were a bit underswhelmed in terms of the overall quality of the unit, and the amount of noise we heard from the adjoining unit.  Also seemed smaller than the Westin units...they do, as you note, have a lot of locations.


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## TUG Talker

tomandrobin said:


> There are several nice resort in that area. You can do a search on this site of the resorts in that area. There will be a new Westin to be built there that will be going on sale soon.



Can you point me to how I would do such a search?  Do you mean something more sophisticated than simply searching for "Palm Springs" or similar using the BBS forum search tool? 



tomandrobin said:


> TUG Talker said:
> 
> 
> 
> - We like the 2 BR lockout option, and would likely split the rooms - use 1/2 of our "villa" for the tournament, and try to trade the other half for a stay in another resort each year.  How likely are we going to be to be able to get into another location on an annual basis?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This all depends on when and where you want to travel. A platinum unit at Mission Hills should trade fairly well in II. The problem is using Starwoods II account.
Click to expand...


I'm still reading up on Starwood limitations in using II...is there a good summary here of the issues?  I've read a number of posts that mention issues but haven't seen one that clarifies it for someone like me, who isn't already familiar w/using II.  



tomandrobin said:


> Read as much as you can here on Tug. Read the stickys at the top of this forum and ask all the questions you can think of before buying.



Yup...    Will continue to do so, and won't do any buying w/out a lot more reading/thinking.


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## grgs

I agree with the suggestion to also consider the Marriotts in Palm Desert.  I've been to all three of them (Shadow Ridge, Desert Springs, Desert Springs II), as well as the Westin Mission Hills.  They are all nice properties.  Since you live relatively close, you could just make a field trip out there and take a look.  Personally, I'd feel better buying something I'd seen first hand.  Plus it gives you an excuse for a weekend getaway!  Since the Marriott Shadow Ridge development is in active sales, you might able to get a preview offer to visit there.  If no one here knows how to go about that, you might ask on the Marriott board.  There have been many threads comparing the three Marriotts in Palm Desert, so you may want to do a search.

I agree that the Westin Mission Hills units are nicer because the lockoff is a true one bedroom, rather than a studio.  It also means that both halves trade as 1 bedrooms in Interval.  Whether that's something that's worth the higher maintenance fees would be a matter of personal opinion.  

Glorian


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## Bill4728

The Westin are a very nice TS company and their TS are Top Notch!! But that said if you want a single resort and not to be treated like a leper because you bought resale. IMHO, I'd buy one of the three great Marriott resorts in Palm Desert. 

If you just want into the Starwood system and would be happy with a TS in Scottsdale, Buy Westin Kierland which is a mandatory resort and will give you Staroption even though you purchased resale. You could use them to stay in PS but may have trouble with super high demand winter weeks. 

Good Luck


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## saluki

TUG Talker said:


> Can you point me to how I would do such a search?  Do you mean something more sophisticated than simply searching for "Palm Springs" or similar using the BBS forum search tool?



You will have access to the "TUG Resort Database" of reviews if you join TUG.


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## TUG Talker

saluki said:


> You will have access to the "TUG Resort Database" of reviews if you join TUG.



Thanks...I'm going to do that, sure seems worth the price!!


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## DavidnRobin

My Opinion...

If you buy resale Westin Kierland Villas (WKV) in Scottsdale - a SVN Mandatory resort - you get StarOptions that can be used to stay at WMH, Maui, Kauai, or the other SVN resorts (as long as you buy a villa that has enough SOs associated with it = 81K+) - and there is no punitive nature to it - as everyone seems to be expounding nowadays.  The only thing you lose out on is being able to convert SOs to StarPoints - not a good deal anyway.

It is more costly than buying WMH resale - but the overall value of WKV outweighs this cost (home resort value, SVN usage, and resale value) - again, my opinion (and what i would do if I could go back and do it again...)

In the stays that I have had a Westin resorts (WKORV, WKV, WSJ) the construction is great (no noise from neighbors - a pet peeve of mine) - the resorts are fabulous, and very well maintained - and definitely the upper-end of TSs.  If we had more vacation time - I would buy an additional week at WKV just for SVN exchanging purposes.

You can find a 2Bd LO - Gold season - at WKV (81K SOs) for ~$8K (with some patience) that has MFs/taxes around $1100.  The same unit (same MFs) in Platinum season (148.1K SOs) for ~$22K.  Both sides of these LOs are fully contained.  A 1Bd premium (large) villa at WKV (Platinum - 81K SOs - MFs of ~$620) runs around $13K (if you can find one).
Good Luck.


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## TUG Talker

DavidnRobin said:


> My Opinion...
> 
> If you buy resale Westin Kierland Villas (WKV) in Scottsdale - a SVN Mandatory resort - you get StarOptions that can be used to stay at WMH, Maui, Kauai, or the other SVN resorts (as long as you buy a villa that has enough SOs associated with it = 81K+) - and there is no punitive nature to it - as everyone seems to be expounding nowadays.  The only thing you lose out on is being able to convert SOs to StarPoints - not a good deal anyway.
> 
> It is more costly than buying WMH resale - but the overall value of WKV outweighs this cost (home resort value, SVN usage, and resale value) - again, my opinion (and what i would do if I could go back and do it again...)
> 
> In the stays that I have had a Westin resorts (WKORV, WKV, WSJ) the construction is great (no noise from neighbors - a pet peeve of mine) - the resorts are fabulous, and very well maintained - and definitely the upper-end of TSs.  If we had more vacation time - I would buy an additional week at WKV just for SVN exchanging purposes.
> 
> You can find a 2Bd LO - Gold season - at WKV (81K SOs) for ~$8K (with some patience) that has MFs/taxes around $1100.  The same unit (same MFs) in Platinum season (148.1K SOs) for ~$22K.  Both sides of these LOs are fully contained.  A 1Bd premium (large) villa at WKV (Platinum - 81K SOs - MFs of ~$620) runs around $13K (if you can find one).
> Good Luck.



Thanks for all the details and suggestions...my wife and I sure have a lot of reading, researching, and thinking to do!  

We would likely rarely go to Scottsdale, so the WKV would be a purchase to trade only, which I thought wasn't considered the best way to go...but I guess if I want to have "internal" villa trading it is a reasonable option.


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## DavidnRobin

TUG Talker said:


> Thanks for all the details and suggestions...my wife and I sure have a lot of reading, researching, and thinking to do!
> 
> We would likely rarely go to Scottsdale, so the WKV would be a purchase to trade only, which I thought wasn't considered the best way to go...but I guess if I want to have "internal" villa trading it is a reasonable option.



I just read this in your OP.  You are in a quandry - at least you did the right thing and rescinded your WKORV-N - especially since you don't want that as your Home Resort.  I suggested WKV because you considered buying WKORV-N - and there are advantages to being  SVN Mandatory.

The problem with WMH is that it is Voluntary (along with all the other new resorts being built). If you are okay with this - meaning, mostly going to WMH every year - and occasionally using II - then this may be a good plan for you to buy resale (or looking outside of SVO).

If you do buy WMH resale - and in the future decide to buy from SVO - you could consider requalifying it - but do not depend on this.

SVO is also building Desert Willow - the downside is that it is Voluntary - so the resale value will be very low (most certainly).

If you decide on SVO - it does sound as if WMH resale may be for you.
Best.


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## mesamirage

I think that the best bang for the $$$ with Starwood is Kierland (WKV).  Its a resort that if you "had" to use your time there you wouldn't be disappointed, it rents well (we rented out the smaller 1bdrm last Spring Training for $1300), it trades in SVN, and last it will pull fantastic trades with II (but that would be a last resort).

Is it worth the price difference compared to say Mission Hills?  It is if you consider the resale value down the road as part of the equation.

Steve


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## duke

You can buy WMH RESALE Platinum and then requalify with a purchase of VV - Key West Deveoper EOY 2BR L/O.  You will be much better off and get lots of incentives!


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## myip

duke said:


> You can buy WMH RESALE Platinum and then requalify with a purchase of VV - Key West Deveoper EOY 2BR L/O.  You will be much better off and get lots of incentives!


Requalify has change quite a bit.  You now need EY with Ey purchase and the purchase price is at least $20K.  You may be better off buying Westin Kierland unless you really want to spend another $20K for requalification.


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## TUG Talker

Just found out that our neighbors (who we thought had a Marriott time share in Palm Springs) actually bought the Westin Mission Hills.   

So I'm going to talk to them about it...they paid 13K (bought from developer at their presentation) for an annual 2bd lock-off, so I'm assuming they must have not bought off-season, as that sounds too inexpensive for high season.  

They evidently had been using their mom's Marriott TS (I think Desert Springs Villas) and didn't like the Marriott system, so they went w/the Starwood property when they decided to get their own.  Funny that all the time we were talking to them about their timeshare we didn't realize they had changed from Marriott to Starwood...


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## shockdoct

In my opinion you really have to decide if you are going to want to simply use the TS at mission hills for the tennis tournament or would like some flexibility to use it elsewhere.  If you think you would just like to use it EY as a short drive vacation then the resale market would work.  Where if you would like to explore and go back to Maui or some of the other destinations you will not see the quality of the WMH resort via II (generally).

I think you should wait and see what the release of desert willow will do to resale market of WMH and also you may be able to buy desert willow from developer (if you really need the 12 month out reservation because you are concerned about getting that week for the tennis tournament any year you want to).  Since it is preconstruction you get a "deal" (still very expensive relative to resales at WMH)  and will have a ton of starPOINTS to use until DW opens.

Lots of info and things to consider..good luck!

EDIT - Another thing to consider is the expansion of broadway plantation.  This will have 2 BRs and could probably be had for pretty cheap (by developer standards) to buy a low season week to requalify a WMH resale (to allow for SVN trading)


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## pointsjunkie

myip said:


> Requalify has change quite a bit.  You now need EY with Ey purchase and the purchase price is at least $20K.  You may be better off buying Westin Kierland unless you really want to spend another $20K for requalification.



where did you get the 20k information? i thought they changed to an ey for an ey. what if the unit you reaaly want to purchase( like a small 1br unit) is under 20k? that seems unreasonable to make a buyer buy something that he doesn't want.


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## stevens397

I would love to hear from some people who bought WMH resale and used it to trade with II or another trade company.  What kind of results have you gotten?

I agree with all of the comments above, but for some people, the approx $10,000 difference is large.  If they really love the place and want to use it, I consider it a major bargain.  If owners have had decent results trading outside of SVN, it would be very useful information.


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## LisaRex

If you really want to use WMH for the Tennis Masters week, I'd first call and make sure that those 2 weeks aren't "sold out."  Owners are allowed to lock in specific weeks for a premium (25%?), but SVO will only allow x number of rooms to be locked in.  It's conceivable that the resort is already sold out for those 2 weeks, which means that flex week owners will have to fight over the remaining inventory at the 12 month mark.  In other words, if it's a really hot week, you might have trouble getting in even if you're an owner and that's your home resort.  If you buy at another resort (e.g. WKV) on the assumption that you'll be able to trade into WMH, you may be very disappointed. 

So my first task would be to investigate how popular those weeks are.  Cincinnati is not exactly a tourist mecca, but hotel rooms are very hard to find during the week we host the Tennis Masters series.  You're not only competing with out of town fans, but you're also competing with the players, their families and entourage, officials, and media folks.    

Assuming you'd be able to get in that week, if 7 times out of 10 you'll use your timeshare for the Indian Wells tournament, I'd buy there.  Yes, you'd lose the ability to exchange within SVN, but I think we'd all agree that that benefit is overhyped.  There are less than 20 Starwood properties right now and the hot properties are very difficult to get into during popular times.  

The good news is that WMH is still a Westin branded timeshare and, as such, enjoys a good repuation.  Unlike mandatory owners, voluntary owners get to deposit the villa they bought, in the season they bought, into II.  Given that the Indian Wells tourney is in March, you'll be buying during a Platinum week and that should have great trading power in II during the years you don't attend the tourney.  Alternatively, you could book it for the Tennis Masters week and then try to rent it out (hint: put up a sign at area Tennis Clubs), using the proceeds to book elsewhere.

Good luck with your decision!


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## tomandrobin

LisaRex you bring up some very good points about actual use at the resort, by the owners. 

And regardless of StarOptions, WMH is still a very nice resort. BY the way, didn't Starwood sell Mission Hills to Host Group (Marriott) last year?

There are currently 13 Starwood properties, with seven more in some stage of development or construction that is known.


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## pointsjunkie

pointsjunkie said:


> where did you get the 20k information? i thought they changed to an ey for an ey. what if the unit you reaaly want to purchase( like a small 1br unit) is under 20k? that seems unreasonable to make a buyer buy something that he doesn't want.



can someone verify that this info is correct?


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## duke

myip said:


> Requalify has change quite a bit.  You now need EY with Ey purchase and the purchase price is at least $20K.



Have you confirmed this is true?

DavidandRobin did it a few months ago and gave a detailed step by step how and where they did it.

THE ACTUAL TRUTH IS:  You have to be ready to make a deal to get a deal with requalification.  Phone calls and questions don't work.  You must buy the resale first....Get it transferred....Sit down at a SVO sales office and be ready to purchase a developer unit to requalify.

With regard to WMH reservations for the Tennis Tournament:  Reservations are easy.  There are no fixed weeks.  Lots of Villas are available in the 12 - 8 month window.  I've even made reservations after 8 months.

WMH is a great resort and the resale price for Platinum 2 br L/O is quite reasonable.  And, when you requalify you get 148,100 StarOptions which is the same as Maui!


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## oneohana

myip said:


> Requalify has change quite a bit.  You now need EY with Ey purchase and the purchase price is at least $20K.  You may be better off buying Westin Kierland unless you really want to spend another $20K for requalification.



I have heard that $20K number also. $40K for requalifing Hawaii and Carribean resorts.


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## myip

duke said:


> Have you confirmed this is true?
> 
> DavidandRobin did it a few months ago and gave a detailed step by step how and where they did it.
> 
> THE ACTUAL TRUTH IS:  You have to be ready to make a deal to get a deal with requalification.  Phone calls and questions don't work.  You must buy the resale first....Get it transferred....Sit down at a SVO sales office and be ready to purchase a developer unit to requalify.
> 
> With regard to WMH reservations for the Tennis Tournament:  Reservations are easy.  There are no fixed weeks.  Lots of Villas are available in the 12 - 8 month window.  I've even made reservations after 8 months.
> 
> WMH is a great resort and the resale price for Platinum 2 br L/O is quite reasonable.  And, when you requalify you get 148,100 StarOptions which is the same as Maui!




Not 100%sure but it is in 
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24046&page=4


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## stevens397

Still waiting to hear if anyone has had success trading WMH through II or another exchange company.

Do you think it would be better to start a new thread with the title "Anyone had success trading Mission Hills outside SVN?"


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## DavidnRobin

duke said:


> THE ACTUAL TRUTH IS:  You have to be ready to make a deal to get a deal with requalification.  Phone calls and questions don't work.  You must buy the resale first....Get it transferred....Sit down at a SVO sales office and be ready to purchase a developer unit to requalify.



Duke is absolutely correct about this.  The best negotiation approach is not to show your hand.  We simply went to an Owners Update at WKV - armed with the requal knowledge from TUG - and then worked out a deal. You will not know if the rules have changed until you actually go thru the process (ours was 4+ hrs of back-forth) - maybe they had a quota to fill - maybe it was that we were buying WPORV and requalifying an OF Dlx WLORV unit - maybe they knew that the change in Elite benefits was coming - or maybe we just got in under the 'new' rules.  Hard to say - all I was interested in was we wanted - and were ready to walk away with anything less (and they were aware of this).

Sorry to have a thread tangent...

The point being is not to rely on a requal (if that is what you intend to do) in buying resale.  Go ahead and plan around it if this is what you want to do in the future, but buy the TS-type and location that best fits your vacation needs.  If SVO WMH resale is that - then go for it - just make sure you do your research first (as you are).


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## Fredm

stevens397 said:


> Still waiting to hear if anyone has had success trading WMH through II or another exchange company.
> 
> Do you think it would be better to start a new thread with the title "Anyone had success trading Mission Hills outside SVN?"



Check out this link:
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50954

Actually great success through I.I. with WMH trades.

Fredm


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## TUG Talker

This is all pretty fascinating, even the "off-topic" stuff, so don't hold back.   I read the thread that Fredm posted, and I guess it still isn't confirmed if/how Jerseygirl's II request is affected by Starwood.


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## LisaRex

I just want to clarify one thing:

If you buy resale at WMH and don't try to requalify it, then YOU get to deposit the villa you bought at the season you bought into II, correct?  I thought that this was the case, but now I'm not so sure.


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## pointsjunkie

i bought small 1 br at sdo foating 1-52 and i put in II and starwood traded a large 1 br week 52..i got a great trade with it . a 2 br in lake tahoe  for next summer.i think starwood still has the control over the unit they trade even if you do not belong to the svn.


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## TUG Talker

pointsjunkie said:


> i bought small 1 br at sdo foating 1-52 and i put in II and starwood traded a large 1 br week 52..i got a great trade with it . a 2 br in lake tahoe  for next summer.i think starwood still has the control over the unit they trade even if you do not belong to the svn.



That's what I thought was happening, based on some of the posts I've seen.  Issue is, sounds like it's luck of the draw, what if they had substituted a worse property/week, which it seems like could as easily happen...

Can Starwood mess w/trades in systems like SFX (I think that's what it's called) as well as II?


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## pointsjunkie

if someone owns at wkv can starwood use another resort to trade in II ?


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## oneohana

pointsjunkie said:


> if someone owns at wkv can starwood use another resort to trade in II ?



Yes, if it is in SVN, *wood controls the week and resort it deposits. There are exceptions where others have gotten a week deposited at the resort they own.


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## TUG Talker

It's funny...the sales rep in our presentation said that "only 1.8% of starwood owners use II to trade, the rest trade via SVN."  

Seems unlikely (that 1.8% number), but I can see that many owners would avoid using II just because of the "interference" of Starwood in those trades.


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## stevens397

1. Thanks Fred - you're an amazing source of information and it's wonderful how generous you are with it.

2. San Francisco Exchange looks better and better every day!


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## Fredm

stevens397 said:


> 1. Thanks Fred - you're an amazing source of information and it's wonderful how generous you are with it.
> 
> 2. San Francisco Exchange looks better and better every day!



stevens397.

Happy to do it. Thank you for saying so!

SFX is indeed an attractive alternative.
The understandable confusion, which begs an answer, is why can an owner control their reservation by depositing with SFX, but not I.I. ? (assuming the owner has an independent membership with I.I. and is not an SVN Member.)

Fred


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