# why all the negativity?



## hatrick (Apr 8, 2015)

Been a member now for all of two days but one thing is obvious, there is a lot of negativity about the timeshare resale market. The timeshare market is obviously in a deep recession but does everyone believe this will last forever? I personally believe it will recover. Probably never to the point some paid for their units through the developers but enough to at least give the units away without having to pay a second time to dispose of them. Eventually it has to turn around or the developers would have already abandoned their sales offices by now.  I was shocked to see they were still selling these units at the resort I just bought into. I took that as a very good sign. Marriott introducing a point buy back program (as I learned on this site) is a positive sign as well. Would they be buying anything back if they believed the market will continue a free fall?  Again, I am totally new to time share ownership but not to investing. I'm not ready to declare my purchase as a sound investment but I doubt I'll have to pay someone to take it off my hands if and when the time comes.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 8, 2015)

Well, I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I love timeshare ownership! The only negatives can be increasing maintenance fees and the exit plan dilemma. I bought where I want to go. Have done a bit of exchanges with my preassigned floater week (which is "attached" to my fixed week) at Smugglers Notch, but rarely exchange that anymore,  and always use my fixed week there and intend to always use my recently acquired fixed week at Pollard Brook as well. I have never rented out my unit. We actually paid developer prices back in 1999, but have never regretted it and actually because we have owned so long we have more than broke even financially. I think a lot of people buy timeshares and don't understand what they buy or how to use it- especially if they buy to trade instead of just use at the resort they buy at and if they buy into a points system which is a bit more complicated to use.

I don't know if the market will recover- maybe for some resorts.The thing that keeps resorts going is the maintenance fees and, of course, the new sales.But there is a glut on the resale market now as people are aging and need to divest themselves of the added expense.


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## DeniseM (Apr 8, 2015)

hatrick said:


> Been a member now for all of two days but one thing is obvious, there is a lot of negativity about the timeshare resale market. The timeshare market is obviously in a deep recession but does everyone believe this will last forever? I personally believe it will recover.



I understand that you are enamored with your new timeshare (and there is nothing wrong with that) but your theory is not based on the facts of the market. 

It's simply a matter of supply and demand - there is more supply than demand for timeshares, and that keeps the resale price low.

I can't imagine anything that will change that.

However, I don't feel negative about that at all - I have gotten all but one of my timeshares for free or nearly free.  If you know what you are doing, the buyers-market is not a bad thing at all.


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## CO skier (Apr 8, 2015)

hatrick said:


> Been a member now for all of two days but one thing is obvious, there is a lot of negativity about the timeshare resale market. The timeshare market is obviously in a deep recession but does everyone believe this will last forever? I personally believe it will recover. Probably never to the point some paid for their units through the developers but enough to at least give the units away without having to pay a second time to dispose of them. Eventually it has to turn around or the developers would have already abandoned their sales offices by now.



The economy is about as good as it will get.  People are vacationing again.  EBay brought the $1 timeshare to market during the Great Recession, and EBay is still flooded with $1 timeshares during the recovery.  There are many reasons for this.  Just search for all the threads where children (heirs) want to know how they can refuse their parents' timeshares.  People who bought in the '80s can't vacation like they used to; their children are not interested in taking over the timeshare; it is difficult to sell an 80's timeshare today when the maintenance fees are the same as an updated 2000's timeshare (that may be selling for $1).

There are many posts here from experienced ex-timeshare owners who much prefer renting now instead of owning, because they can rent for less than they can own.  It is not negative; it is realistic for their situation.

That is the key.  Determine how and where you want to vacation, then determine if it is better, cheaper to rent than to own what now costs only $1 and may never be worth anything more than that.


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## eschjw (Apr 8, 2015)

Even if you buy a cheap resale, you will rarely be able to make a profit. There are way to many people buying on impulse, not understanding the complexities or real cost, then they get discouraged and want to get rid of what they have purchased. Most people will take a large loss when they dispose of it. 

If you buy resale, have a reasonable maintenance fee and can use it for years then you are more likely to have a positive experience.


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## TUGBrian (Apr 9, 2015)

Why do you feel that being informed about the resale market is negative?

what is your argument against being presented with the facts?


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## hatrick (Apr 9, 2015)

TUGBrian said:


> Why do you feel that being informed about the resale market is negative?
> 
> what is your argument against being presented with the facts?



I totally agree with the fact the market is depressed and some units will never regain their value. The truth is they never had value to begin with. An ocean front unit in Maine is for sale now on ebay for a buck, but the fixed week is in the middle of the winter. The maintenance fee exceeds what you would have to pay for a weeks stay at that time of year in that location. There is no value there and I doubt there ever was; and fairly certain there will never be again unless something drastic changes. However, another unit listed on this site in prime season is also selling for a buck and that has value. The maintenance fee is 1/3rd the cost of a week at that same resort. I'm no Warren Buffet but to me that seems like a steal and a very good investment. Maybe a year from now I may feel differently but from my newbie perspective I see opportunity.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 9, 2015)

It's true- many people buy off- season weeks from the resort because the salesperson tells them they can exchange it to go there or somewhere else during a Prime week. These people are usually very disgruntled when they discover how hard it is to do that. Yes- those weeks are not valuable at all in my opinion. Other people take out loans from the resort or wherever to pay for a timeshare. Then they realize they can't afford the payments together with the maintenance fees, not to mention airfare, rental cars, etc. That is another reason why I think for many people it is better to buy somewhere you can drive to comfortably.

In the Northeast- the prime weeks are ski season or summer. I have week 30 and 31 in the Northeast-rents are high for those weeks, so cheaper to own a "free" timeshare. My floater- spring/fall- usually falls during pink weeks- like Sept/Oct or June- I will use those weeks as well. I only exchange the Blue/White weeks (late April/May or late Oct/Nov (except Thanksgiving)/ early Dec) When our son was young- we exchanged all the floaters and went everywhere- including Hawaii. It's been great.


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## theo (Apr 9, 2015)

*Reality check...*



hatrick said:


> <snip> I'm no Warren Buffet but to me that seems like a steal and *a very good investment*. Maybe a year from now I may feel differently but from my newbie perspective I see opportunity.



With all due respect, acknowledging that you are brand new to this game and lacking in both factual and market background knowledge and history on timeshares, the words "timeshare" and "investment" rarely (if ever) belong together within the same sentence or conversation. Nonetheless, I still  personally *enjoy* timesharing.

The only real "value" in timeshares is in their potential for use and enjoyment. As a form of "investment" with potential for future financial gain, off the top of my head I frankly cannot think of *anything* worse than timeshare purchases --- even resale and no matter how inexpensively acquired ---   and please don't conveniently forget the reality and certainty of annual (and annually increasing) maintenance fees and occasional, unexpected "special assessments".

In short, I suggest that you don't confuse or characterize well informed observations and realistic, objective market analysis as somehow just being "negativity".


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## csxjohn (Apr 9, 2015)

hatrick said:


> ... I personally believe it will recover..... Eventually it has to turn around or the developers would have already abandoned their sales offices by now. ...



I do not agree that it will ever recover or turn around.  As Denise said, supply and demand.

As long as the developers continue to sell something for tens of thousands of dollars that can be had for a dollar or less, they will continue.  It has nothing to do with resale value.

My prediction is that more and more resorts with many "bad" weeks will be forced to close as more and more owners die off and others refuse to keep paying fees higher than they can rent for.  The owners that are left will have very high fees and they will get tired of paying also.

Another thing I can see happening is that eventually the developers will start taking back deeds and make you pay to deed them back.  This gives them very cheap inventory to turn around and gouge more people.


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## presley (Apr 9, 2015)

Timeshares are not a financial investment and even timeshare sales people will tell you that. There are some rare exceptions, but none of those are guaranteed and most of us think of our timeshares as an investment in family time/vacation time, etc.

I don't believe the value of resales will increase on the whole. The reason companies like Marriott and DVC have higher resale prices is because they actively exercise their right of first refusal in order to keep the resale prices high so they can sell more at retail. Most timeshares do not have right of first refusal and they have no control over what their units are sold for.


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## geekette (Apr 9, 2015)

Definitely not an investment.  For me it is prepaid vacation.

I don't see the resale market zooming back, ever.  The first week a timeshare is open it's "new" and after that it is "used".  The internet brought info to the masses, info that developers would rather you not have.  I don't see that genie getting crammed back into the bottle.

Not sure where you think the negativity is, but I don't think it's on Tug.  I own resale timeshares whose value is mostly in the time I get to be somewhere other than home, out enjoying Life and Friends and Family.  it's a place to stay that is a very large step above hotels.  

Maybe I should care that when I want to be done with them there will probably me no money coming my way, but that's not a big concern for me. It definitely doesn't turn me negative as this was never about Making Money, it was always about Making Memories on Vacation.


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## pedro47 (Apr 9, 2015)

geekette said:


> Definitely not an investment.  For me it is prepaid vacation.
> 
> I don't see the resale market zooming back, ever.  The first week a timeshare is open it's "new" and after that it is "used".  The internet brought info to the masses, info that developers would rather you not have.  I don't see that genie getting crammed back into the bottle.
> 
> ...



Timeshare vacation is outstanding not totally free (yearly maint fees, club fees & points fees). I have owned two timeshares for over 25 years; from two different developers and only one developer will buy back my timeshare and that is Marriott.


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## MabelP (Apr 9, 2015)

I like the term prepaid vacation. Thank you! (As I  read John Sandford overlooking the JW from Villas 1 in Palm Desert!) I love my prepaid vacations!!!


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## hatrick (Apr 9, 2015)

*pre-paid vacation thumbs up, investment thumbs down?*

I stand corrected: As a pre-paid vacation there is a lot of positive feedback but as an investment... not so much.  My definition of investment might be broader than most. The new car I bought last year gets 40 mpg that replaced the car I had that got 25 mpg. I will have put 30,000 miles on it by the time it is one year old. At the time I bought the car gas was $3.50/gal. My anticipated savings on gas purchases per month was about $130. Combined with the savings of not having to repair my old vehicle (200k miles) I consider that purchase a good investment. Others may not agree but that is how I think.  If I was going on vacation and a week at a nice resort was going to cost me $2,000 but by buying a time share I could cut that cost in half, I'm buying every time. To me that is a good investment too, as long as I have plans of returning in the future.


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## DeniseM (Apr 9, 2015)

> My definition of investment might be broader than most.



I would say that you are talking about buying things that are a "good value," or "save you money," but that does not make them an "investment."  (And a timeshare purchased on the resale market, definitely falls into that category.)

investment:  the action or process of investing money *for profit or material result.*

We regularly have guests who come to TUG and actually believe that they are making a *profitable* investment when they buy a timeshare, so the use of the word "investment," is bound to trigger a response on TUG.  

"Profitabiity" is a common lie that is presented by timeshare sales people to make a sale.  Either the buyer is told that their timeshare will be a very profitable rental, or that the timeshare will increase in value over time, and that the buyer can sell it for a profit, or their heirs can.  Pure baloney in both cases.


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## geekette (Apr 9, 2015)

hatrick said:


> I stand corrected: As a pre-paid vacation there is a lot of positive feedback but as an investment... not so much.  My definition of investment might be broader than most. The new car I bought last year gets 40 mpg that replaced the car I had that got 25 mpg. I will have put 30,000 miles on it by the time it is one year old. At the time I bought the car gas was $3.50/gal. My anticipated savings on gas purchases per month was about $130. Combined with the savings of not having to repair my old vehicle (200k miles) I consider that purchase a good investment. Others may not agree but that is how I think.  If I was going on vacation and a week at a nice resort was going to cost me $2,000 but by buying a time share I could cut that cost in half, I'm buying every time. To me that is a good investment too, as long as I have plans of returning in the future.



Certainly, your definition of "investment" covers a lot more than I would consider Investing.  Cars are depreciating assets, absolutely not "investments" in my world, but for collectors of rare vehicles, maybe.  

No need to play the semantics game, let's bottom-line it - something can make good financial sense to you yet not fall into common (or IRS) definition of "investment".  A person parts with their money in exchange for goods and services when it makes sense to do so.  For most on this board, owning timeshares makes sense, both in financial terms (say in comparison to hotel for same stay) and in comfort/convenience as compared to hotel (full kitchen, multiple bedrooms/bathrooms, more amenities, etc.)

But you know what?  If you tell your spouse or kids or parents or close friends that you "invested in timeshare", they may attempt to have your head examined (mostly an issue with the word Timeshare that got a bad rap "back when") but if you instead say that you have made an investment in making memories with them by prepaying vacation time, they will be intrigued.  Until, you know, you say the word Timeshare.


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## hatrick (Apr 9, 2015)

geekette said:


> Certainly, your definition of "investment" covers a lot more than I would consider Investing.  Cars are depreciating assets, absolutely not "investments" in my world, but for collectors of rare vehicles, maybe.
> 
> "Investment is time, energy, or matter spent in the hope of future benefits actualized within a specified date or time frame". Wikipedia
> 
> The best investments with highest returns are the ones the IRS can't tax. I've invested time in fixing up my house to sell and offset that gain with the homeowners exclusion deduction. Was that not a wise investment of my time?  I totally agree that time shares as an investment has a bad rap but one of the first lessons I learned many years ago was this: " When everyone is talking it down, buy; when everyone is talking it up, sell". Money magazine 1980's.


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## WinniWoman (Apr 9, 2015)

I think of investments as things that I get something out of. When I fix up my house, as we are doing now spending thousands upon thousands of dollars, I am not looking at making money on it. I am looking at USING it and being happy. Same when I buy a car. I buy it to USE it. Heck- even with monetary investments like mutual funds and such- sure I want my money to grow - but that is because I will need to USE it- if not at some future date. Same with a timeshare- I bought to USE and be happy. That's all that matters to me.


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## DavidnRobin (Apr 9, 2015)

OP - you started with "why all the negativity" - I fail to see that in your argument.
Deflecting it into an argument regarding the definition of 'investment' is tangental…

It is really not that hard a concept.
Some have value - most do not (even at $1 or less).
Not everyone's vacation needs are the same.
TSing does not work for everyone.
Some people get duped into thinking it will work for them (and often does not).
The secret is finding value (based on personal needs) in TSing.

We like our timeshares - and our timeshares have value (both for us, and on resale market).
Perhaps hang around and understand why there is perceived 'negativity' on your part - I do not see it that way at all.  TUG is the only place that will give you a diverse opinion based on experience and facts, but sometimes 'truth' hurts.


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## AwayWeGo (Apr 9, 2015)

*Prepaid Vacation Would Be Correct -- Except For Those Pesky Maintenance Fees.*

The professional timeshare sellers manage to plant certain ideas without just exactly saying them.  

Prepaid vacation is 1 of those.  

In reality, timeshare ownership provides no such thing. 

Even with my timeshare all paid off & my deed totally free & clear, I am not allowed to check in when I show up unless I have also ponied up the use-year's maintenance fee.  

Same thing next year, & the following year & the year after that, & so on & so forth right on down the line. 

Nothing prepaid about it.

So it goes. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## theo (Apr 10, 2015)

Alan makes excellent and valid points above. "Pre-paid vacation" is actually a very poor and grossly inaccurate description for timeshare ownership. 
"Pre-arranged access to non-hotel vacation accommodations", although more wordy, might actually be a more truthful and accurate description.


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## Luvstotravel (Apr 10, 2015)

I like to think of them as "vacations that we are forced to go on, if we don't want to forfeit the hundreds of dollars I've already paid, and we know deep down that we would not have taken otherwise because we're horrible at making vacation plans ahead of time because we can never make up our minds so let's just use the timeshare because it's already arranged."


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## silentg (Apr 10, 2015)

When we bought our first timeshare, I was not sold on the idea. My husband was not a person who liked to vacation, said to me "Terry, buying a timeshare will guarantee that I will take at least one week of vacation a year".  We bought the week and enjoyed it each year.  Later on we acquired a few more timeshares. Always look at timeshares as an adventure, not an investment. BTW my husband loves to take vacations now, and I get to plan all of our trips.


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## taterhed (Apr 10, 2015)

I find it quite 'profitable' to make my own drinks and meals while on vacation when I choose...

I think it an 'investment' in my happiness....


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 10, 2015)

> Been a member now for all of two days but one thing is obvious, there is a lot of negativity about the timeshare resale market.



I am just taking on this statement.  I love buying timeshares on the resale market.  I love owning timeshare and using them.  The fees go up and up and up, and all of us pay for those who are not paying, but we get nothing back.  It's also wrong for developers to sell to folks who have bad credit because they aren't going to change and pay their fees each year.  They are going to walk away from their timeshare loan at 20%, or whatever that ridiculous interest rate is, and we will be stuck with THEIR fees each year until that week is sold to some other nitwit who may or may not pay. 

The negative about timeshare resales for me has to do with the way they are sold, and the way timeshares are devalued BY THE DEVELOPER in the resale market.  So you buy a timeshare for $40,000, and it's not worth a dime on the resale market because the developer doesn't pass the same benefits to the resale buyer.  So what you bought cannot be resold for even 5% of the price paid to that developer.  That is a huge issue.  

Not all timeshares lose all of their value in the resale market, but even the name brand timeshares lose 75% of the worth you paid, ROFR plays a part.  So some morons pay a company to divest their timeshare, and that seller gets $20K for an oceanfront Maui resort, but the developer can always take that back and resell it again for $80K.  It's sick.  

Starwood is builidng more and more resorts without mandatory Staroptions.  Marriott now has a point system which excludes resale buyers from entry.  And what is the point?  To devalue their own product.  It's nonsensical. 

We bought oceanfront at a little resort on Maui with out lanai 50 feet from the ocean.  Heaven must be like our view from the wraparound lanai.  We got our 3 weeks on eBay (two even year, two odd year and one annual) for a total of about $5,000.  Over $2,500 of that amount was the resort management's transfer fees.  Most of the rest of the cost was excessive closing fees by the seller.  So the management company, also the developer, takes $550 for each week through resale, regardless of even or odd year.  

It's not fancy at Hono Koa.  We have new stainless steel appliances and granite countertops but ordinary in almost every way.  The furniture in the living room is so comfortable, as is the bed in the master.  

The fees for 2015 are $1,579.13 per week.  A huge portion of our fees are bad debt (those who aren't paying their fees).


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## Cheryl20772 (Apr 10, 2015)

hatrick said:


> I totally agree with the fact the market is depressed and some units will never regain their value. The truth is they never had value to begin with. An ocean front unit in Maine is for sale now on ebay for a buck, but the fixed week is in the middle of the winter. The maintenance fee exceeds what you would have to pay for a weeks stay at that time of year in that location. There is no value there and I doubt there ever was; and fairly certain there will never be again unless something drastic changes. However, another unit listed on this site in prime season is also selling for a buck and that has value. The maintenance fee is 1/3rd the cost of a week at that same resort. I'm no Warren Buffet but to me that seems like a steal and a very good investment. Maybe a year from now I may feel differently but from my newbie perspective I see opportunity.



Most of the people who would consider owning timeshare with an eye toward profit or investment are owning mainly to rent to others. You seem to have a level head about this. If you are interested in timeshare as business, you might enjoy reading posts by Ron Parise in the Wyndham section. He's only been buying resale points for a few years to rent but seems to like managing his rental of Wyndham/Worldmark. He got in when the market was bottomed, but I think he's saying it's turned now and he's talking about selling now. Here's a link to threads he's started, but you might look for other posts of his if interested. http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/search.php?searchid=7470758

There are others posting in the forum who use timeshare as a business as well, but, from my reading, it's a lot of work and worry. For me, we bought retail and won't recoup in value what we paid for it in our lifetimes.


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## 1950bing (Apr 11, 2015)

The timeshare "cancer " has been going on for over 25 years.
It was all brought on by greed and always lying salesmen.
It is a good concept but slimy sales tactics ruined it for good honest people who want to have great vacations. I don't see the market changing because of decades of major rip-offs. The definition of "timeshare" is set.


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## eakhat (Apr 11, 2015)

taterhed said:


> I find it quite 'profitable' to make my own drinks and meals while on vacation when I choose...
> 
> I think it an 'investment' in my happiness....




That made me smile!


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## davidvel (Apr 11, 2015)

rickandcindy23 said:


> The negative about timeshare resales for me has to do with the way they are sold, and the way timeshares are devalued BY THE DEVELOPER in the resale market.  So you buy a timeshare for $40,000, and it's not worth a dime on the resale market because the developer doesn't pass the same benefits to the resale buyer.  So what you bought cannot be resold for even 5% of the price paid to that developer.  That is a huge issue.
> 
> Not all timeshares lose all of their value in the resale market, but even the name brand timeshares lose 75% of the worth you paid, ROFR plays a part.  So some morons pay a company to divest their timeshare, and that seller gets $20K for an oceanfront Maui resort, but the developer can always take that back and resell it again for $80K.  It's sick.


*This should be a sticky.* All prospective owners (and guest of TS resorts) should read and firmly grasp this when learning about timesharing. People should cut it out and keep in their wallet just in case they succumb the the pressure to "learn about what we're offering."


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## theo (Apr 11, 2015)

*Different strokes...*



1950bing said:


> The timeshare "cancer " has been going on for over 25 years.
> It was all brought on by greed and always lying salesmen.
> It is a good concept but slimy sales tactics ruined it for good honest people who want to have great vacations. I don't see the market changing because of decades of major rip-offs. The definition of "timeshare" is set.



Timeshares have actually been sold in the U.S. since well before 1980 and earlier still. That's actually closer to *40* years by my math.

There is no question that developer prices are obscene and their lying, deceitful sales weasels lower than whale excrement on the ocean floor, but some people interested and energetic enough to "work" the resale market can (and do) obtain some great, affordable vacation options. Personally, I've found timesharing to be an enjoyable (and eminently affordable) hobby of sorts, as well as providing extensive vacation enjoyment opportunities.   

You clearly have a very bitter taste and view regarding timeshares --- and you are *absolutely* entitled to your perspective and personal opinion. 
That being said however, you might consider that there are indeed some other, very different perspectives too.


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## cubigbird (Apr 11, 2015)

You really buy your timeshare for it's intrinsic value - which only you and your family can define.  Personally, having younger children and the extra space with the ability to cook (versus eating out) is a MUCH better experience than staying in a hotel room and there is NO COMPARISON.  Every time I travel for business or pleasure and I stay in a cramped hotel room, I remind myself how much I miss the large timeshare space.


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