# Marriott apprears to be cheating weeks owners at Ocean Pointe



## dougp26364 (Sep 23, 2018)

i noticed this last year when I didn’t have my choice of check in days. This year, nothing available for a weeks owner in September but, all unit types, including 3 bedroom ocean front, are available for points reservations. The only weeks available for weeks owners are in May. 

Granted there’s not that many weeks available for Silver season owners at this point but, September weeks have NEVER been a problem before.


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## SeaDoc (Sep 23, 2018)

dougp26364 said:


> i noticed this last year when I didn’t have my choice of check in days. This year, nothing available for a weeks owner in September but, all unit types, including 3 bedroom ocean front, are available for points reservations. The only weeks available for weeks owners are in May.
> 
> Granted there’s not that many weeks available for Silver season owners at this point but, September weeks have NEVER been a problem before.


Cheating is not really accurate.  What is likely happening is that week owners are electing points and their inventory is now part of the points inventory, contributing to your lack of options.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## dougp26364 (Sep 23, 2018)

SeaDoc said:


> Cheating is not really accurate.  What is likely happening is that week owners are electing points and their inventory is now part of the points inventory, contributing to your lack of options.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk



Maybe, but I find it difficult to believe there is absolutely nothing available for weeks owners to reserve in the month of September. And when I say nothing, I mean there’s not even a studio unit available. I’m having a very difficult time believing that so many weeks owners in silver season elected points so that there is no inventory available for weeks owners.

So I guess what you’re saying is, when a weeks owne


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

dougp26364 said:


> i noticed this last year when I didn’t have my choice of check in days. This year, nothing available for a weeks owner in September but, all unit types, including 3 bedroom ocean front, are available for points reservations. The only weeks available for weeks owners are in May.
> 
> Granted there’s not that many weeks available for Silver season owners at this point but, September weeks have NEVER been a problem before.



Same thing happened with Ko Olina. Weeks owners need to book early to get inventory since the inventory available for weeks owners and points owners is different.


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 23, 2018)

There are separate inventories between points and weeks. If more people move to points, less weeks inventory. Of course, less weeks owners too.


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## pedro47 (Sep 23, 2018)

Where would timeshare be without week owners ?


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## bogey21 (Sep 23, 2018)

In a way Marriott, by facilitating the move to Points from Weeks, in a way has changed the rules for those who bought Weeks assuming they would always work like they did when they bought...

George


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## JIMinNC (Sep 23, 2018)

bogey21 said:


> In a way Marriott, by facilitating the move to Points from Weeks, in a way has changed the rules for those who bought Weeks assuming they would always work like they did when they bought...
> 
> George



I've never understood why "changing the rules" is such a surprise for folks. There's virtually nothing that is always the same. Over time, the only constant is change - in most things in life. From 1999 when we bought our first timeshare, we've always assumed things could and would change over time. They did, and we adapted. We first bought into the Embassy Vacation Resort program, but when Hilton hotels bought Embassy Suites, the Embassy timeshare program was discontinued and the resorts reverted to Sunterra and eventually Diamond. We didn't like the change, but that's business, and we adapted and eventually sold that ownership. We certainly didn't "blame" anyone for cheating us out of anything. We knew up-front the program would and could change and if it did, we would have to adapt.


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## csalter2 (Sep 23, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> I've never understood why "changing the rules" is such a surprise for folks. There's virtually nothing that is always the same. Over time, the only constant is change - in most things in life. From 1999 when we bought our first timeshare, we've always assumed things could and would change over time. They did, and we adapted. We first bought into the Embassy Vacation Resort program, but when Hilton hotels bought Embassy Suites, the Embassy timeshare program was discontinued and the resorts reverted to Sunterra and eventually Diamond. We didn't like the change, but that's business, and we adapted and eventually sold that ownership. We certainly didn't "blame" anyone for cheating us out of anything. We knew up-front the program would and could change and if it did, we would have to adapt.



I actually welcomed the change to points with Marriott. I used to always feel that I would not need a two bedroom and not want a studio. I also owned with Diamond Resorts which used points. I loved the flexibility I had with the Diamond points. When Marriott offered the points options, I was just elated.


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## davidvel (Sep 23, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> There are separate inventories between points and weeks. If more people move to points, less weeks inventory. Of course, less weeks owners too.


This inaccurate statement has been made since 2010. THe trust is required to reserve its weeks from ALL OF THE AVAILABLE inventory like everyone else, as required by the governing documents.


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## TravelTime (Sep 23, 2018)

davidvel said:


> This inaccurate statement has been made since 2010. THe trust is required to reserve its weeks from ALL OF THE AVAILABLE inventory like everyone else, as required by the governing documents.



I do not know the formal rules and what governing documents say. However, it appears there is different inventory because I have found you can reserve Spain weeks more easily as a weeks owner than via points and the opposite appears to be true with Ko Olina weeks, where there is a lot more inventory for points owners. These is my only real comparison since this is where I am own weeks and points.


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## davidvel (Sep 23, 2018)

SeaDoc said:


> Cheating is not really accurate.  What is likely happening is that week owners are electing points and their inventory is now part of the points inventory, contributing to your lack of options.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


How do you know this is "likely"? The DC has to reserve weeks just like all the other weeks owners.

But as long as we are speculating, maybe Marriott is using its conflict of interest position as manager of weeks reservations to allow the DC to reserve the weeks it wants automatically/instantly through its computer systems, before weeks owners have the chance to reserve those coveted intervals.


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## davidvel (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I do not know the formal rules and what governing documents say. However, it appears there is different inventory because I have found you can reserve Spain weeks more easily as a weeks owner than via points and the opposite appears to be true with Ko Olina weeks, where there is a lot more inventory for points owners. These is my only real comparison since this is where I am own weeks and points.


The governing documents say all weeks owners: you, me, the Destination Club, and the Marriott trust have to reserve their weeks on an equal basis, with no favoritism to any owner. There is no segregation of reservation rights among owners.


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## billymach4 (Sep 23, 2018)

So how to resolve this issue. I have one solitary week that is post 2010 at Ocean Pointe in the silver season. Not going to pay any $$ to get this week converted to points even if they would permit.


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## SeaDoc (Sep 23, 2018)

billymach4 said:


> So how to resolve this issue. I have one solitary week that is post 2010 at Ocean Pointe in the silver season. Not going to pay any $$ to get this week converted to points even if they would permit.


Are you attempting to book 12 months out, which is the earliest you can book?  If so, I would ask the VOA how these weeks are released.  Perhaps, they can assist you.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 23, 2018)

davidvel said:


> This inaccurate statement has been made since 2010. THe trust is required to reserve its weeks from ALL OF THE AVAILABLE inventory like everyone else, as required by the governing documents.



Cite official source please? One can see at almost any resort that weeks may be available where points are not, and, vice versa. So, if you are correct, please cite the document, page, section, etc.

Please be sure and get the FAQ corrected. Section 2 of 3 would disagree with your contention.

To quote:

*~~ Inventory Sources for DC Points Usage ~~*

MVCI Weeks and MVCD Points inventory is kept separate according to the terms of each system's governing documents in order to protect Owners/Members ownership and usage rights. Inventory available through the DC Exchange Company is sourced from Marriott-controlled deposits as well as (according to the *MVCD FAQ on my-vacationclub.com*,) _"... other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International."_


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 23, 2018)

davidvel said:


> How do you know this is "likely"? The DC has to reserve weeks just like all the other weeks owners.
> 
> But as long as we are speculating, maybe Marriott is using its conflict of interest position as manager of weeks reservations to allow the DC to reserve the weeks it wants automatically/instantly through its computer systems, before weeks owners have the chance to reserve those coveted intervals.



And yet, there are many instances where weeks can be had but not available via points, so, your speculation appears incorrect.


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## jimf41 (Sep 23, 2018)

dougp26364 said:


> i noticed this last year when I didn’t have my choice of check in days. This year, nothing available for a weeks owner in September but, all unit types, including 3 bedroom ocean front, are available for points reservations. The only weeks available for weeks owners are in May.
> 
> Granted there’s not that many weeks available for Silver season owners at this point but, September weeks have NEVER been a problem before.



I'm showing all days  available for checkin on all unit types for points. Now I know you stated weeks but it baffles me why would someone who owns a 3bd worth 4225 points want to use it as a week when you can have the same unit using points for 2900 points or 1470 points if you wait till the 60 day window. You'll at least have 1325 points left over if you book now and 2755 points left if you wait for the 60 day window.

Your desire to use weeks instead of points does not constitute cheating by MVC. It also is entirely logical that no September weeks are available because almost all Silver 3b owners turn them in for points. The exception being the folks that want to go to MPB in Nov-Dec.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Sep 23, 2018)

"Cheating is such an ugly word - Let's just call it a lower priority . . ." (Lily Tomlin's Ernestine character)

The blunt reality is that we, the owners (of both points and weeks), do not know how weeks are allocated on an individual week basis. All we know is that they _are_ allocated internally by MVCI -"according to the founding documents", which do not explain the selection choice. 

Does someone at MVCI "call" the reservation desk at month 13 and then month 12 to reserve the block of reservations? Do they get there first, or do individual owners get in a reserve some before MVCI? We will never know.

Remember this, only as many week units are made available as there are weeks owners. All the "unsold inventory" was put into the MVCI points system. You will always be competing with the other owners for that size of pool. Exactly what weeks, is determined by MVCI. You are only guaranteed a Silver Week, not _which_ silver week. If all that's left is May. . . . "It's legal" (Sheriff Bart)

This reality is why I sold my Royal Palms week and exited the Marriott system. . . .


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## dioxide45 (Sep 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I do not know the formal rules and what governing documents say. However, it appears there is different inventory because I have found you can reserve Spain weeks more easily as a weeks owner than via points and the opposite appears to be true with Ko Olina weeks, where there is a lot more inventory for points owners. These is my only real comparison since this is where I am own weeks and points.


Spain is a different bird. There are no Spain weeks in the DC trust. Points reservations for Spain are only available through the DC exchange company. The only way that you can book points inventory for Spain is if people that own Spain elect DC points. I suspect that a much lower percentage of European owners enrolled their weeks, both because the cost was high and the number of points they provided was low. Most people that own in Spain probably use their home resorts because of the limited options in Europe and the costs to travel to other MVCI properties.


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 23, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Spain is a different bird. There are no Spain weeks in the DC trust. Points reservations for Spain are only available through the DC exchange company. The only way that you can book points inventory for Spain is if people that own Spain elect DC points. I suspect that a much lower percentage of European owners enrolled their weeks, both because the cost was high and the number of points they provided was low. Most people that own in Spain probably use their home resorts because of the limited options in Europe and the costs to travel to other MVCI properties.




Agree that Spain is different, but are you agreeing with daviddel that there is not separate inventory? It would seem a lot of effort was put into that FAQ, from reading old threads, etc. Are you saying everyone was wrong? I can tell you I have seen where my home resort was not available to be booked, yet, via points it could be. And I have seen the opposite as well. Which would agree with the FAQ.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 23, 2018)

dougp26364 said:


> i noticed this last year when I didn’t have my choice of check in days. This year, nothing available for a weeks owner in September but, all unit types, including 3 bedroom ocean front, are available for points reservations. The only weeks available for weeks owners are in May.
> 
> Granted there’s not that many weeks available for Silver season owners at this point but, September weeks have NEVER been a problem before.


I don't understand why Marriott would want to snap up September weeks for themselves over May weeks. I would expect May to be in more demand just based on a higher DC point requirement and also higher TDI. September is peak hurricane season. Perhaps they are just trying to save people from themselves by preventing them from being able to book in September.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 23, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Agree that Spain is different, but are you agreeing with daviddel that there is not separate inventory? It would seem a lot of effort was put into that FAQ, from reading old threads, etc. Are you saying everyone was wrong? I can tell you I have seen where my home resort was not available to be booked, yet, via points it could be. And I have seen the opposite as well. Which would agree with the FAQ.


There is separate inventory, but we really don't know how MVC allocates it out inside of a floating week system. Why would they go and reserve up all the September weeks for DC but leave May weeks out there? It doesn't really make sense.


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 23, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> There is separate inventory, but we really don't know how MVC allocates it out inside of a floating week system. Why would they go and reserve up all the September weeks for DC but leave May weeks out there? It doesn't really make sense.



Totally agree.


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## JIMinNC (Sep 24, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> There are separate inventories between points and weeks. If more people move to points, less weeks inventory. Of course, less weeks owners too.





davidvel said:


> This inaccurate statement has been made since 2010. THe trust is required to reserve its weeks from ALL OF THE AVAILABLE inventory like everyone else, as required by the governing documents.





Steve Fatula said:


> And yet, there are many instances where weeks can be had but not available via points, so, your speculation appears incorrect.



I think both of you guys can be correct. Here's why...

1) What davidvel says is correct - the governing docs specifically state that the MVC Trust must reserve floating weeks on the same basis as other owners. They have no preferential rights.
2) But once the MVC Trust reserves/allocates its weeks, those weeks are separated from the weeks inventory, and can only be reserved by points owners. So in that way, Steve is correct in asserting that the weeks and points pools are separate from the perspective of those trying to actually reserve them for use. Once MVC Trust uses its ownership rights to reserve its weeks, those weeks are only available for points reservations.

What we don't know is how MVC reserves or allocates those weeks. How do they pick which weeks within a floating season to reserve? That is the $64,000 question.

But once MVC makes its selection of weeks and dumps those into the points reservation system, that explains how there can be availability in points but not for weeks.


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## bazzap (Sep 24, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Spain is a different bird. There are no Spain weeks in the DC trust. Points reservations for Spain are only available through the DC exchange company. The only way that you can book points inventory for Spain is if people that own Spain elect DC points. I suspect that a much lower percentage of European owners enrolled their weeks, both because the cost was high and the number of points they provided was low. Most people that own in Spain probably use their home resorts because of the limited options in Europe and the costs to travel to other MVCI properties.


You are right about no Spain weeks in the trust, access using points only available if owners elect points, low percentage of owners enrolled, owners using their home resorts...the number of points provided is not too bad though, e.g we get 3625 for our Club Son Antem weeks and 3375 for our Playa Andaluza weeks so we do sometimes elect and use these for good bookings at other MVC resorts.


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 24, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> I think both of you guys can be correct. Here's why...
> 
> 1) What davidvel says is correct - the governing docs specifically state that the MVC Trust must reserve floating weeks on the same basis as other owners. They have no preferential rights.
> 2) But once the MVC Trust reserves/allocates its weeks, those weeks are separated from the weeks inventory, and can only be reserved by points owners. So in that way, Steve is correct in asserting that the weeks and points pools are separate from the perspective of those trying to actually reserve them for use. Once MVC Trust uses its ownership rights to reserve its weeks, those weeks are only available for points reservations.



Sure. In actual use by those trying to reserve a week, the deed is probably already done. This is exactly why points can reserve but weeks cannot. Davidvel is speaking about before that happens, which is not totally relevant to the OP most likely, it was misleading to the question at hand. The OP was asking why points had inventory but he could not reserve his week. The answer is the inventory has already been divvied up and is in fact in a separate bucket. I was not trying to be "right", I was trying to answer the OP question and to assert that no cheating was going on, i.e. not hard to believe. 

How, when, etc. is a totally different question which was not asked.


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## Born2Travel (Sep 24, 2018)

I think it's the "how" and "when" that are the important question to answer.


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## Fasttr (Sep 24, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Davidvel is speaking about before that happens, which is not totally relevant to the OP most likely, it was misleading to the question at hand.


I took the OP's initial comment to be questioning exactly this, the fact that using his small sample of one resort in one month, it appears to him that MVC had secured all of the Sept check in dates for points, leaving weeks owners with nothing.


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## bogey21 (Sep 24, 2018)

jimf41 said:


> It baffles me why would someone who owns a 3bd worth 4225 points want to use it as a week when you can have the same unit using points for 2900 points or 1470 points if you wait till the 60 day window. You'll at least have 1325 points left over if you book now and 2755 points left if you wait for the 60 day window.



Maybe they can't afford the cost of converting their Week to Points...

George


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## jimf41 (Sep 24, 2018)

bogey21 said:


> Maybe they can't afford the cost of converting their Week to Points...
> 
> George


It takes 90 minutes of your time, you gain 25k MRPs plus whatever else they currently offer and you are enrolled. Any owner at Ocean Pointe with an enrollable silver season week that doesn't enroll it is losing out on a lot of money and/or extra vacation time.


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## bogey21 (Sep 24, 2018)

I stand corrected.  I thought there was a cost...

George


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## SeaDoc (Sep 24, 2018)

bogey21 said:


> I stand corrected.  I thought there was a cost...
> 
> George


If your week is enrollable, enroll... There is no downside, imho...

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## JIMinNC (Sep 24, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Sure. In actual use by those trying to reserve a week, the deed is probably already done. This is exactly why points can reserve but weeks cannot. Davidvel is speaking about before that happens, which is not totally relevant to the OP most likely, it was misleading to the question at hand. The OP was asking why points had inventory but he could not reserve his week. The answer is the inventory has already been divvied up and is in fact in a separate bucket. I was not trying to be "right", I was trying to answer the OP question and to assert that no cheating was going on, i.e. not hard to believe.
> 
> How, when, etc. is a totally different question which was not asked.



Except that I think that Davidvel might contend that if there is "cheating" as the OP suggests, it is in the way MVC as program manager reserves or allocates this weeks for the Trust. See this quote from one of his posts above:



davidvel said:


> But as long as we are speculating, maybe Marriott is using its conflict of interest position as manager of weeks reservations to allow the DC to reserve the weeks it wants automatically/instantly through its computer systems, before weeks owners have the chance to reserve those coveted intervals.



In similar discussions in the past, davidvel has expressed this same sentiment -- that if at 9:00:00001 AM on release day, MVC runs some sort of automated program that instantly reserves the intervals they want to make available for DC Points reservations, that would be in technical compliance with the program docs - they are reserving at 9 AM just like everyone else - but everyone else doesn't have access to a automated computer routine to reserve their weeks, giving MVC an advantage in getting what they want.

We have no idea if anything like this happens, but it would seem consistent with the way release dates are structured. In almost every case I am aware of, for any given week, the Weeks release date is a day or two before the Points release date. That gives MVC a short window to reserve or allocate the inventory for the benefit of Trust owners, before releasing it for points reservations a day or two later.


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## Saintsfanfl (Sep 24, 2018)

I have not read all these posts but the same thing happened to me last year trying to book November weeks at Manor Club. Manor Club is a very low demand resort. November is a low demand month at a low demand resort. No inventory at 13 months. No inventory at 12 months. Nothing. Not one single check-in day during the entire month. That situation is simply not conceivable. The rep's answer? Inventory was gone in less than 60 seconds. They actually claimed that November is the highest demand month at Manor Club. Say what? Do you think I am an idiot??

Obviously inventory popped up later for those check-in days, which means the reservations were blocked for weeks owners until later, or they took them all and released some later. In either case, they are not supposed to do that. 

Sep is the lowest demand month at Ocean Pointe, *by far.* Whatever fishy nonsense happened in my experience likely happened in this situation.

I don't really think the reps know what is going on so they just make something up that they think fits the situation. They do not know nearly as much about Marriott timeshares as we do. Someone else at the company knows but not the ones answering the phones.


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 24, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> Except that I think that Davidvel might contend that if there is "cheating" as the OP suggests, it is in the way MVC as program manager reserves or allocates this weeks for the Trust. See this quote from one of his posts above:



I guess I can see that then. I just interpret the OP differently. But you won't get an answer as to the specific mechanics I don't think. I took the question as a much simpler question. I would have expected a wordier question about allocation if that's what was meant.

Personally, I wouldn't doubt that the dc trust acquires as many good weeks as they can. They want people in points of course. But this example makes little sense as to why they would do that for this month at this resort.

Regarding Manor Club in November, I see no dates for a week stay via points except one day, it's booked for points as well as weeks. It is a great time of year to go there, I usually go to Williamsburg each year in Oct or Nov. If not in weeks or points, where else would the inventory be?


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## Saintsfanfl (Sep 24, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> I guess I can see that then. I just interpret the OP differently. But you won't get an answer as to the specific mechanics I don't think. I took the question as a much simpler question.
> 
> Regarding Manor Club in November, I see no dates for a week stay via points except one day, it's booked for points as well as weeks. It is a great time of year to go there, I usually go to Williamsburg each year in Oct or Nov. If not in weeks or points, where else would the inventory be?



You are talking about Manor Club this year or next? For 2019 this is too early. For 2018 this is way too late. I was referring to booking 2018 during Oct and thru Nov of last year (for this year), when inventory is first released.

It may be a nice time to go but that doesn't mean the demand comes anywhere near to meeting the supply. You can get a getaway on II for less than a third of the maintenance fees. Many rooms will simply sit empty. It is not in any way high demand time.


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 24, 2018)

Saintsfanfl said:


> You are talking about Manor Club this year or next? For 2019 this is too early. For 2018 this is way too late. I was referring to booking 2018 during Oct and thru Nov of last year (for this year), when inventory is first released.
> 
> It may be a nice time to go but that doesn't mean the demand comes anywhere near to meeting the supply. You can get a getaway on II for less than a third of the maintenance fees. Many rooms will simply sit empty. It is not in any way high demand time.



I am not saying it's high season. Just saying it's booked for this year, not available via DC points either in October and no getaways, last year it was full when we were there at least. This is potentialy different from the OP example when it was all available for points, but not weeks. Unless you looked at points availability at that time. Yes, getaways are a great value in Williamsburg in Oct/Nov. We love the Estates at Kings Creek for that, very cheap 2-3BR houses for $35-$40/nt.

In some ways, it's unfair to compare points vs weeks availability. I suspect that many points owners do not book at the 12 month mark. This is evidenced by availability at high demand resorts. I tend to book a few months, or even days in advance with points. I guess one could claim they over-allocate points, but I suspect points users look at it differently than weeks owners. Sure, there are some spots in some seasons where early is still best with points. But Marriott sells them as flexible, more like hotel reservations. So, weeks should generally be gone sooner than points, IMHO.


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## Superchief (Sep 24, 2018)

I also own an enrolled Silver week at Ocean Pointe, but have converted it to DC points every year since enrolling in DC program. This is one of my best value MVC weeks, since I receive 3050 points for a 2BR Oceanside, 400 more pts than I receive for my Oceana Palms Gold week. Even if I wanted to stay there in prime silver season, I could avoid the skim by avoiding 1 weekend night or using just the 1BR. I expect a high proportion of owners of this season convert to points.

However, I find it very difficult to believe there would be no available inventory for weeks in September. As mentioned earlier, this isn't really a high demand month and point requirements are lower than many other silver months. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a glitch in the system (IT) causing inventory release issues. This and the Manor Club example mentioned earlier make no sense otherwise.

Another consideration is that significant weeks inventory at Ocean Pointe was lost after the hurricane last year, so there may be a carryover inventory programming issue as a result of forecasting models incorporating trends from last year.


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 24, 2018)

Superchief said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if there is a glitch in the system (IT) causing inventory release issues. This and the Manor Club example mentioned earlier make no sense otherwise.



Except Manor Club is not available via any method, it is sold out it appears. In October.

A computer bug, Marriott? Could well be. As an aside, what does Marriott do with the inventory when the trust is allocated too many weeks and those go unused?


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## Saintsfanfl (Sep 24, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Except Manor Club is not available via any method, it is sold out it appears. In October.
> 
> A computer bug, Marriott? Could well be. As an aside, what does Marriott do with the inventory when the trust is allocated too many weeks and those go unused?



Again 13 and 12 months out. Are you saying it isn't available with points for October 2019? That would be the comparison. When my experience happened last year all check-in days were available with points. Not one with weeks.


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## vacationhopeful (Sep 24, 2018)

If I have a HIGH DEMAND and large number of points is associated with that week and unit size ... I generally will book 2 or more weeks in an lesser season and/or smaller unit with my points. Esp in Snowbird locations where I own and stay.

Or as with Wyndham, they like to RENT the high demand intervals ... usually 2 reservations of either 3 or 4 days in length. New prospects for selling their timeshare "product" to.


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 24, 2018)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Again 13 and 12 months out. Are you saying it isn't available with points for October 2019? That would be the comparison. When my experience happened last year all check-in days were available with points. Not one with weeks.



I agree totally on that aspect. What I am pointing out though, is that there is no inventory this year (2018) at Manor Club, i.e., it is sold out. So, it's not exactly low demand as was sort of implied. Maybe it used to be, who knows.

I still maintain points users in general do not go en masse to reserve that far in advance, as weeks users often do. So, not sure it's a fair comparison since I expect weeks to sell out in advance of points users. But I agree that 13 months out, it's hard to believe that it's 'sold out' weeks wise. Tug users may indeed still do so.

All I am trying to say is it is sold out, for this year. So, it's not super low demand else I would expect availability just like I still see for Hawaii and many other places. But in no way shape or form am I saying therefore, I expect all weeks to be gone 12 or 13 months out, I would not expect that.


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## Saintsfanfl (Sep 24, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> I agree totally on that aspect. What I am pointing out though, is that there is no inventory this year (2018) at Manor Club, i.e., it is sold out. So, it's not exactly low demand as was sort of implied. Maybe it used to be, who knows.
> 
> I still maintain points users in general do not go en masse to reserve that far in advance, as weeks users often do. So, not sure it's a fair comparison since I expect weeks to sell out in advance of points users. But I agree that 13 months out, it's hard to believe that it's 'sold out' weeks wise. Tug users may indeed still do so.
> 
> All I am trying to say is it is sold out, for this year. So, it's not super low demand else I would expect availability just like I still see for Hawaii and many other places. But in no way shape or form am I saying therefore, I expect all weeks to be gone 12 or 13 months out, I would not expect that.



Can't Marriott take control of any inventory this close to check-in? I thought it was something like 75 days out. They will take the weeks and throw them on Marriott.com. You can book on Marriott.com for not much more than the annual fees.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 24, 2018)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Can't Marriott take control of any inventory this close to check-in? I thought it was something like 75 days out. They will take the weeks and throw them on Marriott.com. You can book on Marriott.com for not much more than the annual fees.


Correct, using current availability is meaningless. Most resorts do sell out near or close to 100% occupancy. However, for low demand times of the year it takes many months and many outlets to unload the weeks. There are currently October MSE weeks in II. It am flabbergasted that it would be construed because a resort is currently sold out 30 days in advance for that it somehow means that it is high demand or not low demand.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 24, 2018)

jimf41 said:


> It takes 90 minutes of your time, you gain 25k MRPs plus whatever else they currently offer and you are enrolled. Any owner at Ocean Pointe with an enrollable silver season week that doesn't enroll it is losing out on a lot of money and/or extra vacation time.


It isn't necessarily free though is it? ALways? Don't you usually have to first go to a presentation and be offered an Encore package (that you have to buy) in order to get free enrollment? Some are getting it for a webinar, but is that going to every unenrolled owner?


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 24, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> It am flabbergasted that it would be construed because a resort is currently sold out 30 days in advance for that it somehow means that it is high demand or not low demand.



All I said was that last year, it was sold out. And that it wasn't super low demand. And, that many resorts do have availability within 30 days for dc points as I showed last year despite the claims to the contrary. Of course it takes many outlets to get full occupancy that time of year. But I am very surprised it does not have DC availability like many places still show for October. When I looked a few hours ago, other than studios, there were no mse getaways for October. If you look at TDI on II for Williamsburg, it shows in the greatest demand column until week 43 (October 28 - November 4), and then it's barely below. So, that makes it not low demand or super low demand doesn't it for October, actually greatest demand side? At least in II. January shows bottom of the rating system. I believe it's still platinum until November for 2018 looking at the weeks calendar. Points wise, it's second most expensive time until the last week of October. Is that enough reason?

Kind of surprised by the way people read things. Geez! Was merely responding to a comment made specifically for October.

A guy can apparently make a claim that there is no separate inventory and be unchallenged, but one cannot say it isn't super low demand, and support it with facts without getting raked over the coals. I know, now you'll contend the II rating is old, doesn't apply to Marriott, Marriott is wrong with their seasons chart, or who knows what inventive argument.


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## dougp26364 (Sep 25, 2018)

jimf41 said:


> I'm showing all days  available for checkin on all unit types for points. Now I know you stated weeks but it baffles me why would someone who owns a 3bd worth 4225 points want to use it as a week when you can have the same unit using points for 2900 points or 1470 points if you wait till the 60 day window. You'll at least have 1325 points left over if you book now and 2755 points left if you wait for the 60 day window.
> 
> Your desire to use weeks instead of points does not constitute cheating by MVC. It also is entirely logical that no September weeks are available because almost all Silver 3b owners turn them in for points. The exception being the folks that want to go to MPB in Nov-Dec.



This is a good observation and, perhaps silver season owners at Ocean Pointe picked up on this and switched to points when they had the opportunity, convert to points and are reserving the cheap weeks using points.

I’m not ready to reserve. We have a 3 bedroom ocean front we purchased to use in the first 2 weeks of December. Weeks that are cost more in points than what MVC gives me if I trade my week for MVC points. Thus I hold my week. 

my observation is just that inventory for the owner who is in weeks no longer has the ability to easily reserve any week in silver season. 

We’ve owned since 2001. Prior to last year reserving virtually any week that wasn’t Memorial Day, Labor Day or Thanksgiving week was easy enough it could be done at any time. Now, not so much. It seems the trust has the ability to snag weeks BEFORE the 12 month mark or, since Ocean Pointe was essentially sold out when the trust came to being, there was enough silver season owners who recognized the points disparity and converted to points, using points to book the cheapest weeks and using the surplus points to extend their vacation time. Ocean Pointe use to have a heavy amount of multiple week owners who where snow birds. It could be there’s enough Ocean Pointe silver season owners that can book nights 13 months out and there booking these weeks before the single season owners even get a peek at them.

Whatever the reason, I’m watching things evolve in ways I never imagined when we purchased in 2001. Timeshare evolves. I’m glad we own enough and bought weeks early enough I can play in both pools and watch both pools. This far down the road my observations lead me to believe that, at this resort, I wouldn’t want to buy a Silver season week resale if my plans were to use it for weeks that are cheaper for an Ocean Pointe Silver season week owner to book with points than use as a deeded week. Obviously, if I wanted to book a September week, I’d convert for the 4,200 points they’d give me and reserve for the 2,900 points they’re asking for if I booked in September. This is one of the unintended consequences when MVC set up the program with the built in “skim”.


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## SeaDoc (Sep 25, 2018)

dougp26364 said:


> This is a good observation and, perhaps silver season owners at Ocean Pointe picked up on this and switched to points when they had the opportunity, convert to points and are reserving the cheap weeks using points.
> 
> I’m not ready to reserve. We have a 3 bedroom ocean front we purchased to use in the first 2 weeks of December. Weeks that are cost more in points than what MVC gives me if I trade my week for MVC points. Thus I hold my week.
> 
> ...


There is no 'skim' if you happen to book within 60 days and receive 30% discount on points used for the stay (president & chairman levels).  I find availability quite good, and elect all my weeks into points year after year...

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## dougp26364 (Sep 25, 2018)

SeaDoc said:


> There is no 'skim' if you happen to book within 60 days and receive 30% discount on points used for the stay (president & chairman levels).  I find availability quite good, and elect all my weeks into points year after year...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk



Well, I’m only executive level and I’m not about to spend thousands more to reach the next level plus, we’re still working and need to plan vacations a little further in advance than 60 days


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## SeaDoc (Sep 25, 2018)

To each is own.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## davidvel (Sep 25, 2018)

Thank you for those explaining my reservation argument in my absence.


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 26, 2018)

SeaDoc said:


> There is no 'skim' if you happen to book within 60 days and receive 30% discount on points used for the stay (president & chairman levels).  I find availability quite good, and elect all my weeks into points year after year...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk



You can always go somewhere good doing this. I do this too. Once you realize just how many places are available within 60 days, it's really the best benefit if you can use it. All 12 months last year, Hawaii was available, at least one resort within 30 days, not 60. By combining this with airfare sales and midweek dates, hard to beat.

Just arranged Branson today for next week to visit a friend that will be in town, having just arrived back home.


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## Dean (Sep 26, 2018)

davidvel said:


> This inaccurate statement has been made since 2010. THe trust is required to reserve its weeks from ALL OF THE AVAILABLE inventory like everyone else, as required by the governing documents.


There is totally separate inventory but there is a crossover option, the destination club.  The question there is who gets to go first and it appears Trust owners get to go first.  Without the DC, each would reserve independently and no they would function as 2 separate systems.  

As for cheating, this would only be the case if Marriott were circumventing the rules to get inventory or reservations.


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## bazzap (Sep 26, 2018)

Dean said:


> There is totally separate inventory but there is a crossover option, the destination club.  The question there is who gets to go first and it appears Trust owners get to go first.  Without the DC, each would reserve independently and no they would function as 2 separate systems.
> 
> As for cheating, this would only be the case if Marriott were circumventing the rules to get inventory or reservations.


I would be very interested to see any evidence that Trust owners get to go first and if they do in what circumstances?


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## dougp26364 (Sep 26, 2018)

bazzap said:


> I would be very interested to see any evidence that Trust owners get to go first and if they do in what circumstances?



One way is that executive owners can reserve 13 months out whereas weeks owners reserve 12 months out. As an enrolled weeks owner at the executive level, I’ve used points when I’ve felt I was wanting a difficult week with the best view. 

So a question would be, when and how can the trust manager grab weeks to use for trust points when enrolled owners exchange their deeded week for trust points? Can the trust manager take the weeks anytime, 13 months out or 12 months out? And what TIME can they grab those weeks? Is it automatic at the millisecond weeks inventory would become available? I doubt there’s any speed dialed that could beat the system when the system knows the exact moment inventory is released. 

Ocean Pointe silver season is likely an an anomaly. Silver season has a wide variance in points requirements for weeks in that season and owners of silver season weeks were given more po8nts for their weeks than gold season owners, making it very attractive to deposit deeded weeks for trust points. Our issue is the timeframe we travel the points requirement is greater than the total points were given for the week we want. This past year we were able to get the week we wanted but not the check in date we desired, which puts me in a mild, but not insurmountable, position with our vacation request at work. Prior to the DC reserving any week and any check in day was as easy as falling off a log. 

As enrolled owners I don’t believe we’ll be affected a great deal but we will have to adjust how we reserve our time (I could be wrong. I haven’t seen December inventory released yet). If I were buying another resale week in silver season that wasn’t enrolled I’ve definately have second thoughts. 

I like points but, I also like keeping my $ in my pocket. To that end we haven’t considered an additional point purchase. In hind sight maybe that was wrong thinking for us as I also like making relatively easy and stress free reservations for our vacation. My plan right now is to sit tight and review my options...... again.


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## dougp26364 (Sep 26, 2018)

In looking at the points schedule for this resort, it’s probably an anomaly for the system. Almost every silver season week requires fewer points than those given with the exception of the last 3 weeks of November and the first 2 weeks of December. As previously pointed out, why would the majority of enrolled silver season week owners ever book weeks unless they wanted November or December? We only purchased silver season because we preferred the first 2 weeks of December or occasionally a November week, and those weeks are considerably more expensive in points than we’d receive if electing points.

So it’s probably little wonder there are no September weeks available for weeks reservations but there’s is availability for points. If we wanted a Sept, October or first weeks of November reservation, that’s certainly how we would go.


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## bazzap (Sep 26, 2018)

I am not too sure why this posted whilst I was typing.
Admin, can you please delete.
It has probably been asked before, but is it not possible to delete your own posts?
Thanks


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## bazzap (Sep 26, 2018)

dougp26364 said:


> One way is that executive owners can reserve 13 months out whereas weeks owners reserve 12 months out. As an enrolled weeks owner at the executive level, I’ve used points when I’ve felt I was wanting a difficult week with the best view.
> 
> So a question would be, when and how can the trust manager grab weeks to use for trust points when enrolled owners exchange their deeded week for trust points? Can the trust manager take the weeks anytime, 13 months out or 12 months out? And what TIME can they grab those weeks? Is it automatic at the millisecond weeks inventory would become available? I doubt there’s any speed dialed that could beat the system when the system knows the exact moment inventory is released.
> 
> ...


OK, I guess there are multiple scenarios in play here and I was really thinking about our own situation.
As multiple weeks owners booking consecutive or concurrent weeks, we can book with our weeks 13 months out.
Also as enrolled weeks Chairman’s Club owners, we can elect our weeks for points and book any duration with our points 13 months out.
So I have never seen the need to buy trust points or as yet anyway seen any situation where we have not been able to get what we want through not having trust points.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 26, 2018)

bazzap said:


> I am not too sure why this posted whilst I was typing.
> Admin, can you please delete.
> It has probably been asked before, but is it not possible to delete your own posts?
> Thanks


You can't delete your own posts, but you can use the "Report" link in the lower left of your post and ask that it be deleted. Chances are an admin won't see your post asking for it to be deleted just in this thread. Best to report it.


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## Dean (Sep 26, 2018)

bazzap said:


> I would be very interested to see any evidence that Trust owners get to go first and if they do in what circumstances?


It's just the way it's set up.  Either someone has to go first or they have to have a formal way to anticipate inventory and allow reservations when there is no actual inventory which I don't believe they have done.  The latter was the way the DVC BVTC worked with Club Intrawest and Club Cordial, they'd let one side go and then if there was too much of an imbalance, they'd halt reservations on that side until they caught up.  As I understand it DC owners cannot reserve in the trust until a trust owner has given up comparable points but a Trust owner can reserve in the DC inventory as available, in spite of the "hybrid" tout some of sales people have spouted.  We've seen examples and I have personally, where there was inventory available using trust points but not DC.  I've never seen an example of the reverse.  To me this is the trust going first.


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 26, 2018)

Dean said:


> As I understand it DC owners cannot reserve in the trust until a trust owner has given up comparable points but a Trust owner can reserve in the DC inventory as available, in spite of the "hybrid" tout some of sales people have spouted.  We've seen examples and I have personally, where there was inventory available using trust points but not DC.  I've never seen an example of the reverse.  To me this is the trust going first.



For this reason, I always use my actual trust points last. Though this situation has never personally come up for me, best to have more flexibility if needed.


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## bazzap (Sep 26, 2018)

Dean said:


> It's just the way it's set up.  Either someone has to go first or they have to have a formal way to anticipate inventory and allow reservations when there is no actual inventory which I don't believe they have done.  The latter was the way the DVC BVTC worked with Club Intrawest and Club Cordial, they'd let one side go and then if there was too much of an imbalance, they'd halt reservations on that side until they caught up.  As I understand it DC owners cannot reserve in the trust until a trust owner has given up comparable points but a Trust owner can reserve in the DC inventory as available, in spite of the "hybrid" tout some of sales people have spouted.  We've seen examples and I have personally, where there was inventory available using trust points but not DC.  I've never seen an example of the reverse.  To me this is the trust going first.


You may be right, although as I say this has never impacted me booking successfully.
I have read here on TUG perhaps at most just a handful of specific examples in the last 8+ years of the DC Points programme where at the highest demand resorts in the highest demand weeks there may have been a very short window where trust points have trumped elected points.
We only travel off peak so, as long as it stays that way, I am very happy as just an enrolled weeks owner.


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## Fasttr (Sep 26, 2018)

Dean said:


> It's just the way it's set up.  Either someone has to go first or they have to have a formal way to anticipate inventory and allow reservations when there is no actual inventory which I don't believe they have done.  The latter was the way the DVC BVTC worked with Club Intrawest and Club Cordial, they'd let one side go and then if there was too much of an imbalance, they'd halt reservations on that side until they caught up.  As I understand it DC owners cannot reserve in the trust until a trust owner has given up comparable points but a Trust owner can reserve in the DC inventory as available, in spite of the "hybrid" tout some of sales people have spouted.  We've seen examples and I have personally, where there was inventory available using trust points but not DC.  I've never seen an example of the reverse.  To me this is the trust going first.


Its quite possible I missed a tangent along the way, but isn't this thread comparing availability between pure weeks owners booking their week vs points (Trust or Legacy) holding folks booking a similar week with points.  Your explanation seems to compare Trust vs Legacy bookings which is a totally different topic.


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## Saintsfanfl (Sep 26, 2018)

Fasttr said:


> Its quite possible I missed a tangent along the way, but isn't this thread comparing availability between pure weeks owners booking their week vs points (Trust or Legacy) holding folks booking a similar week with points.  Your explanation seems to compare Trust vs Legacy bookings which is a totally different topic.



It isn’t just that. It’s why would there be zero inventory with weeks when inventory is supposed to be released. It doesn’t make sense. In my case with Manor Club I ended up booking a 2BR getaway for Thanksgiving Week for $500 before any inventory showed up for a weeks reservation for any check-in day in November. I can buy into the idea that Thanksgiving got booked up relatively quick but to have not one single check-in day for the entire month isn’t plausible. Some inventory was magically sprinkled as available later, but not until there were loads of getaways available for dirt cheap on II.


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## Dean (Sep 26, 2018)

bazzap said:


> You may be right, although as I say this has never impacted me booking successfully.
> I have read here on TUG perhaps at most just a handful of specific examples in the last 8+ years of the DC Points programme where at the highest demand resorts in the highest demand weeks there may have been a very short window where trust points have trumped elected points.
> We only travel off peak so, as long as it stays that way, I am very happy as just an enrolled weeks owner.


I agree it isn't an issue in many situation but it is the technical answer, one members need to understand, IMO.  For me personally it isn't a huge deal but I'm chairman's club and well versed so I'm reserving at 13 months out and waitlisting at 12 months out if needed.  It may be your wording Barry but it's not that Trust points trump DC points but that there are 2 buckets of points inventory, trust inventory and enrolled DC inventory.  As I understand it Trust points can reserve anything in either bucket but DC points can only reserve from the enrolled bucket plus from the Trust bucket up to the level of inventory the trust point have reserved from the DC inventory.  Put another way, if no trust owners used points from the enrolled bucket, a DC owner could not reserve trust inventory at all.  Of course if no weeks owners took points, trust owners would not be able to reserve from that bucket.  I'd say that most of my usage has been high demand resorts during peak times like Maui week 26 (x2), Ko Olina week 27 (x2), waiohai week 28, Grande Ocean weeks 25, 26 & 27 multiple times.  Aruba Surf Club weeks 1, 2 & 52.  The rest has been at Singer Island (OP) during week 26 & short notice inside 60 days mostly at Legend's Edge.  While I've gotten what I needed consistently, I haven't always gotten exactly what I wanted.  For example, the first time for Maui I needed a 2 BR and wanted OF in a new tower.  I had to book a studio plus a 1 BR different view types then waitlist for the 2 BR.  It took multiple wait lists to move up to the 2 BR OF but we got after a while, I think it was 3 different wait lists for GV then OS then OF.  For the 2017 GO trip week 26 I tried at 13 months 8 am day 1 but no luck then again online at 12 months online while also calling on the phone.  I got someone quickly but by the time they checked inventory, the wait lists for Friday and Sat for that week were already full and there was only 1 wait list spot for Sunday.  Lesson learned, don't let them check inventory just go on the wait list straight away.  



Fasttr said:


> Its quite possible I missed a tangent along the way, but isn't this thread comparing availability between pure weeks owners booking their week vs points (Trust or Legacy) holding folks booking a similar week with points.  Your explanation seems to compare Trust vs Legacy bookings which is a totally different topic.


If you want to chastise me for being off topic, fair enough, though I personally think it's related.  I was simply responding to the nuances and specific question that came up along the way.


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## TravelTime (Sep 26, 2018)

There is no skim if you book using your week.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 26, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> There is no skim if you book using your week.


That is what the OP was trying to do.


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## csalter2 (Sep 26, 2018)

Dean said:


> I agree it isn't an issue in many situation but it is the technical answer, one members need to understand, IMO.  For me personally it isn't a huge deal but I'm chairman's club and well versed so I'm reserving at 13 months out and waitlisting at 12 months out if needed.  It may be your wording Barry but it's not that Trust points trump DC points but that there are 2 buckets of points inventory, trust inventory and enrolled DC inventory.  As I understand it Trust points can reserve anything in either bucket but DC points can only reserve from the enrolled bucket plus from the Trust bucket up to the level of inventory the trust point have reserved from the DC inventory.  Put another way, if no trust owners used points from the enrolled bucket, a DC owner could not reserve trust inventory at all.  Of course if no weeks owners took points, trust owners would not be able to reserve from that bucket.  I'd say that most of my usage has been high demand resorts during peak times like Maui week 26 (x2), Ko Olina week 27 (x2), waiohai week 28, Grande Ocean weeks 25, 26 & 27 multiple times.  Aruba Surf Club weeks 1, 2 & 52.  The rest has been at Singer Island (OP) during week 26 & short notice inside 60 days mostly at Legend's Edge.  While I've gotten what I needed consistently, I haven't always gotten exactly what I wanted.  For example, the first time for Maui I needed a 2 BR and wanted OF in a new tower.  I had to book a studio plus a 1 BR different view types then waitlist for the 2 BR.  It took multiple wait lists to move up to the 2 BR OF but we got after a while, I think it was 3 different wait lists for GV then OS then OF.  For the 2017 GO trip week 26 I tried at 13 months 8 am day 1 but no luck then again online at 12 months online while also calling on the phone.  I got someone quickly but by the time they checked inventory, the wait lists for Friday and Sat for that week were already full and there was only 1 wait list spot for Sunday.  Lesson learned, don't let them check inventory just go on the wait list straight away.
> 
> If you want to chastise me for being off topic, fair enough, though I personally think it's related.  I was simply responding to the nuances and specific question that came up along the way.



So am I reading that a point is not a point and that there is a difference in availability for Trust points and DC enrolled points?


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 27, 2018)

There have certainly been some reports on TUG that they can be different, but not very many. I've read at least 2 such reports. Out of all the TUG members who have points, seems low, but, it's > 0 too.


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## bazzap (Sep 27, 2018)

Dean said:


> I agree it isn't an issue in many situation but it is the technical answer, one members need to understand, IMO.  For me personally it isn't a huge deal but I'm chairman's club and well versed so I'm reserving at 13 months out and waitlisting at 12 months out if needed.  It may be your wording Barry but it's not that Trust points trump DC points but that there are 2 buckets of points inventory, trust inventory and enrolled DC inventory.  As I understand it Trust points can reserve anything in either bucket but DC points can only reserve from the enrolled bucket plus from the Trust bucket up to the level of inventory the trust point have reserved from the DC inventory.  Put another way, if no trust owners used points from the enrolled bucket, a DC owner could not reserve trust inventory at all.  Of course if no weeks owners took points, trust owners would not be able to reserve from that bucket.  I'd say that most of my usage has been high demand resorts during peak times like Maui week 26 (x2), Ko Olina week 27 (x2), waiohai week 28, Grande Ocean weeks 25, 26 & 27 multiple times.  Aruba Surf Club weeks 1, 2 & 52.  The rest has been at Singer Island (OP) during week 26 & short notice inside 60 days mostly at Legend's Edge.  While I've gotten what I needed consistently, I haven't always gotten exactly what I wanted.  For example, the first time for Maui I needed a 2 BR and wanted OF in a new tower.  I had to book a studio plus a 1 BR different view types then waitlist for the 2 BR.  It took multiple wait lists to move up to the 2 BR OF but we got after a while, I think it was 3 different wait lists for GV then OS then OF.  For the 2017 GO trip week 26 I tried at 13 months 8 am day 1 but no luck then again online at 12 months online while also calling on the phone.  I got someone quickly but by the time they checked inventory, the wait lists for Friday and Sat for that week were already full and there was only 1 wait list spot for Sunday.  Lesson learned, don't let them check inventory just go on the wait list straight away.


Hi Dean, I fully accept that there are “2 buckets of points inventory, trust inventory and enrolled DC inventory”. There have been many reports though that MVC co-mingle these 2 buckets, so effectively they become one.
There is to my knowledge no definitive proof or confirmation that they do, but equally there is no definitive proof or confirmation that they do not and practical experience leans far more towards the probability that they do manage them as one.


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## TravelTime (Sep 27, 2018)

MVC does what it does. Based on my limited experience, I am guessing they manage inventory separately. This is because I have been able to book some inventory at 13 months with points but not other resorts.


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## bazzap (Sep 27, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> MVC does what it does. Based on my limited experience, I am guessing they manage inventory separately. This is because I have been able to book some inventory at 13 months with points but not other resorts.


MVC absolutely do manage weeks and points inventory buckets separately.
So for example in Europe, where trust points cannot be sold, the only possibility of booking some inventory at 13 months with points is if week(s) owner(s) are enrolled and elect their week(s) for points very early to go into the points inventory bucket.
In most cases though, points availability (trust or enrolled) at these resorts and some other primarily weeks based resorts will only become available quite a while later.


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## Dean (Sep 27, 2018)

csalter2 said:


> So am I reading that a point is not a point and that there is a difference in availability for Trust points and DC enrolled points?


Technically yes but for most situations and practical purposes they do function as one.  I don't think it's a major issue at this time though that could change in the future.  The areas of risk, IMO, are high demand resorts during peak times that are exclusively or almost so in either legacy weeks or the trust.



bazzap said:


> Hi Dean, I fully accept that there are “2 buckets of points inventory, trust inventory and enrolled DC inventory”. There have been many reports though that MVC co-mingle these 2 buckets, so effectively they become one.
> There is to my knowledge no definitive proof or confirmation that they do, but equally there is no definitive proof or confirmation that they do not and practical experience leans far more towards the probability that they do manage them as one.


Barry, I've seen reports that was people's impression, I don't recall any formal confirmation that they've co-mingled them.  What I posted is the legal and technical setup of the program, that's the way it's designed.  Whey they likely could do, which I mentioned above, is to anticipate inventory and allow reservations accordingly.  In effect this would be co-mingling the buckets.  If they did so it's possible one could end up with an unexpected cancelation later but once they have historical data it should be possible to anticipate reasonably well.  They could do this both with weeks and/or Trust points if they chose.

They have a lot of latitude with how the do this day to day but they have to do so within the confines of the legalities involved.  Legally they are separate systems that have to be run independently.  

Here is my experience with GO this past summer using DC points for 7 nights.  Nothing available at 8 am 13 months out.  At 12 months out I was able to get 3 weeks (I wanted 3 Sat weeks but was able to get only one Sat and 2 Sun).  Then over the next 2.5 weeks additional Sat weeks showed up and I was able to all in and change.  So certainly the inventory is fluid.  Whether this was cancelations or weeks electing points is impossible to say though I think the later is more likely.


TravelTime said:


> MVC does what it does. Based on my limited experience, I am guessing they manage inventory separately. This is because I have been able to book some inventory at 13 months with points but not other resorts.


Legally they have to but they have a fair amount of flexibility as the HH hurricane experience proves.


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## bazzap (Sep 27, 2018)

Dean said:


> Technically yes but for most situations and practical purposes they do function as one.  I don't think it's a major issue at this time though that could change in the future.  The areas of risk, IMO, are high demand resorts during peak times that are exclusively or almost so in either legacy weeks or the trust.
> 
> Barry, I've seen reports that was people's impression, I don't recall any formal confirmation that they've co-mingled them.  What I posted is the legal and technical setup of the program, that's the way it's designed.  Whey they likely could do, which I mentioned above, is to anticipate inventory and allow reservations accordingly.  In effect this would be co-mingling the buckets.  If they did so it's possible one could end up with an unexpected cancelation later but once they have historical data it should be possible to anticipate reasonably well.  They could do this both with weeks and/or Trust points if they chose.
> 
> ...


I guess we will never know for sure.
We will just see how inventory availability continues to evolve over time and most importantly if/how this impacts us all as individual owners.
Fortunately, I can dip in and out and switch between weeks and enrolled points (not trust points) so I have some flexibility to adapt to any changes.


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## jimf41 (Sep 27, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> That is what the OP was trying to do.


Everything in context. What the OP was trying to do was make a September reservation at MPB. He couldn't do that with weeks. Even if he could he wouldn't want to do that because enrolled points would be a much better option and they were available throughout the month. In actuality using enrolled points to make that reservation you skim MVC to the tune of 1325 points.


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## Fasttr (Sep 27, 2018)

jimf41 said:


> Everything in context. What the OP was trying to do was make a September reservation at MPB. He couldn't do that with weeks. Even if he could he wouldn't want to do that because enrolled points would be a much better option and they were available throughout the month. In actuality using enrolled points to make that reservation you skim MVC to the tune of 1325 points.


But I believe the bigger point the OP was trying to make was, if an un-enrolled owner wanted to make a Sept weeks ressie, which is clearly in their season, and early on in the available booking window, they would be unable to do so.


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## Superchief (Sep 27, 2018)

Although I don't know if this occurs with weeks inventory, I have noticed that DC inventory release varies by resort. I have both trust and enrolled points, so could source from either bucket. However, when searching early this year for availability in Hilton Head and the desert locations I noticed major differences between resorts.

For Hilton Head, I was checking Jan and Feb availability (6 night intervals) at most of the resorts. I noticed that Surfwatch only had 3BR availability at 13 months, while Barony and Monarch had 2BR and Grand Ocean and others initially had no availability at 13 mo. Grand Ocean started showing 2BR available at about 12 1/2 months. Surf Watch 2BR only became available at 12 months. The smaller resorts didn't show any availability until much later, which is understandable due to their lower DC point values. I searched at least once per week for two months and this pattern was consistent. 

When checking for desert locations (Phoenix and Palm Desert) for March, I noticed that Palm Desert had extensive inventory at 13 months, but CV only had studios available until 12 months. These examples demonstrate to me that some resorts have different inventory release practices.


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## Dean (Sep 27, 2018)

bazzap said:


> I guess we will never know for sure.
> We will just see how inventory availability continues to evolve over time and most importantly if/how this impacts us all as individual owners.
> Fortunately, I can dip in and out and switch between weeks and enrolled points (not trust points) so I have some flexibility to adapt to any changes.


I can do all 3 and it does give some options, esp having sufficient points.  We do know the legal and technical setup which is as I posted whether it's blurred on the actual application, likely so.


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## dougp26364 (Sep 27, 2018)

Actually, I wasn’t trying to make a September reservation. I’ve just been tracking availability for weeks or points. This has been the first year I’ve noticed extremely limited availability to reserve weeks online. Last year was the first year I didn’t have my choice of weeks check in days for our December trip. We use weeks because the week we always want is far more expensive in points than what MVC gives us for our week. In fact, if 8 trade my 3 bedroom ocean front for points, the best I can do for a November or December week in the points pool would be a 1 bedroom ocean front. Thus, I watch weeks reservation availability. 

Another thought I had was what would happen if a weeks only owner called a VC to inquire about weeks availability. Could a VC move points inventory to weeks to accommodate a weeks only owner?


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 27, 2018)

Silver 3 BR Ocean Front is worth 4,225 points according to Steven Tings spreadsheet. Is that what you have? An October points reservation, without any discount for ownership level, is 4,000 points for a 3BR Ocean Front. Or do you have some other unit? A September is even less, 2,900 points, Every checkin day is available via points for 2019 Sept/Oct. Your OP said September, so, that's why I am pointing this out. You would be way ahead in September. 

You are correct it is more for November/ December, 5,900 points. But at my ownership level with the 30% points discount, that November week that is available starting on Nov 24 2018, this year, is 4130 points, still less than your DC points value of your unit, barely. 

Note, I am not saying you should have to convert to points, i.e., you should be able to use your week. Just providing another option, assuming I have the facts straight for what you own. Your point remains valid of course, you should be able to reserve that far in advance.


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## JIMinNC (Sep 28, 2018)

dougp26364 said:


> Another thought I had was what would happen if a weeks only owner called a VC to inquire about weeks availability. Could a VC move points inventory to weeks to accommodate a weeks only owner?



I would think no. That would seem to be a dangerous precedent and likely against the rules. It would be taking inventory away from points owners and giving it to weeks owners, creating an imbalance in supply/demand between the two buckets.


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## dougp26364 (Sep 28, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Silver 3 BR Ocean Front is worth 4,225 points according to Steven Tings spreadsheet. Is that what you have? An October points reservation, without any discount for ownership level, is 4,000 points for a 3BR Ocean Front. Or do you have some other unit? A September is even less, 2,900 points, Every checkin day is available via points for 2019 Sept/Oct. Your OP said September, so, that's why I am pointing this out. You would be way ahead in September.
> 
> You are correct it is more for November/ December, 5,900 points. But at my ownership level with the 30% points discount, that November week that is available starting on Nov 24 2018, this year, is 4130 points, still less than your DC points value of your unit, barely.
> 
> Note, I am not saying you should have to convert to points, i.e., you should be able to use your week. Just providing another option, assuming I have the facts straight for what you own. Your point remains valid of course, you should be able to reserve that far in advance.



For me it doesn’t matter...... unless I’m unable to reserve any week in November or December, which are the months we like to go (preferably December). The cut off date to elect points is September so, if there are no weeks made available for Nov/Dec, I’m stuck with an unusable week unless I take whatever they’ve got and deposit with II.

However, if I was purchasing resale or if I had decided I didn’t want to enroll our eligible weeks, this would be a major concern as there would be a definate lack of reservable weeks....... unless one can obtain a week by calling a VC direct and they can get the week you want by putting you on a wait list, then moving points inventory to weeks incpventory to meet your owner request. I’m not certain that can be done


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## dougp26364 (Sep 28, 2018)

JIMinNC said:


> I would think no. That would seem to be a dangerous precedent and likely against the rules. It would be taking inventory away from points owners and giving it to weeks owners, creating an imbalance in supply/demand between the two buckets.



Somewhere in my memory I recall being told that MVC had a sweetheart deal with II where they could obtain deposited inventory to meet MVC’s needs. That deal included giving II “ equivalent inventory of multiple lower value weeks in exchange for a higher value week. If that is true, then I would imagine this overly complicated system may have other means to provide  MVC owners their desired weeks, all while keeping non-MVC owners out of the proverbial MVC pool, making MVC more exclusive and eliminating the sales objection of “we don’t need to buy MVC. We’lol exchange in” 

In the end all points based reservations systems are designed to sell partial weeks (lower point packages as entry level sales) and control inventory so one must buy into the system to get what you desire.


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## dougp26364 (Sep 28, 2018)

Another thought about imbalance. Let’s say all owners enrolled their weeks as Ocean Pointe was sold out when MVC came out with higher DC. Furthermore, let’s say all owners noticed the points disparity where they could deposit their exchange their 7 night week for DC points, then reserve 9 or 10 nights at Ocean Pointe instead of 7. 

Sure it balances out because the November December weeks cost more than the points given, meaning owner could only reserve 5 nights instead of 7 but, it also means owners would have to accept those short weeks when they could have had 7 ( by not converting). 

What would happen to silver season owners is there would not be enough nights available if their desired timeframe is those low value nights. It would be fine if they use the surplus points to reserve nights at other resorts but, many who purchased Ocean Pointe (originally at least) purchased to stay at their ho e resort. 

The system may be techniquelly “balanced” but, I can see an unusual and unlikely situation where owners could bank on using points for their home resort in the low value season but find themselves locked out unless they book early.


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## Dean (Sep 28, 2018)

dougp26364 said:


> Another thought I had was what would happen if a weeks only owner called a VC to inquire about weeks availability. Could a VC move points inventory to weeks to accommodate a weeks only owner?


They could but I think the chances of doing this without some major snafu on their end is zero.  Even if they did, it'd have to come from their own inventory in some way.  It sounds like they may have used their inventory to book up Sept at 13 months out in preference over other times.



dougp26364 said:


> In the end all points based reservations systems are designed to sell partial weeks (lower point packages as entry level sales) and control inventory so one must buy into the system to get what you desire.


We could do a big thread on point systems vs others and the differences in points systems.  But one key component that's likely in play here is that one of the biggest reasons developers like points systems is everyone think's their buying what they want, usually the peak options/weeks.  So effectively their selling every week and every resort like it's Maui July 4th OF.  

I think OP may be a little unique in that silver really is more like Gold at a lot of places.  I seem to recall a lot of hype on TUG back in the day about buying silver for usage and trading.


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## Dean (Sep 28, 2018)

dougp26364 said:


> Another thought about imbalance. Let’s say all owners enrolled their weeks as Ocean Pointe was sold out when MVC came out with higher DC. Furthermore, let’s say all owners noticed the points disparity where they could deposit their exchange their 7 night week for DC points, then reserve 9 or 10 nights at Ocean Pointe instead of 7.
> 
> Sure it balances out because the November December weeks cost more than the points given, meaning owner could only reserve 5 nights instead of 7 but, it also means owners would have to accept those short weeks when they could have had 7 ( by not converting).
> 
> ...


This is one of the issues with points systems that allow shorter reservations from the get go.  However, they can only reserve up to the level of inventory exchanged for points.  The skim should also help in this area as well.


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## dougp26364 (Sep 29, 2018)

Dean said:


> This is one of the issues with points systems that allow shorter reservations from the get go.  However, they can only reserve up to the level of inventory exchanged for points.  The skim should also help in this area as well.



In the beginning, MVC appears to have messed up the seasons at Ocean Pointe, over valueing the summer weeks and under valueing the months of November/December as evidenced by Oceana Palms seasons. Because of this, when they instituted the DC points and because Ocean Point was sold out, meaning nearly all points were enrolled points, it created a situation of a reverse skim with what appears to be many Silver season weeks owners taking advantage of receiving more points for their weeks than what it takes to reserve most Gold and Silver season weeks.

I’ve followed inventory since we purchased in 2001 and I could see inventory online. Last year was the first year I began to notice a decline in availability for weeks owners reserving as weeks owners. Until this year I hadn’t really noticed the disparity in points received and points required for most weeks in gold/silver season as we always book in November/December, which cost more in points than what we receive for our week. What I now believe has happened is that Silver season owners have awakened to the descrepancy noted in this thread and all owners who enrolled their weeks and travel in May, Sept, or Oct have deposited their weeks. Marriott may have been pretty smart in locking up the cheaper weeks while holding the more expensive weeks, knowing weeks owners like myself would want to use those weeks as weeks and not points.

I’ll have to wait another couple of months to see how this shakes out for us. It would be a HUGE disappointment if it becomes difficult or impossible to travel to out home resort in December. We use this as an end of year vacation to relax and work all the knots accumulated over a long year of work. This week has become very important and looked forward to in our yearly vacation plans


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## Dean (Sep 29, 2018)

dougp26364 said:


> In the beginning, MVC appears to have messed up the seasons at Ocean Pointe, over valueing the summer weeks and under valueing the months of November/December as evidenced by Oceana Palms seasons. Because of this, when they instituted the DC points and because Ocean Point was sold out, meaning nearly all points were enrolled points, it created a situation of a reverse skim with what appears to be many Silver season weeks owners taking advantage of receiving more points for their weeks than what it takes to reserve most Gold and Silver season weeks.
> 
> I’ve followed inventory since we purchased in 2001 and I could see inventory online. Last year was the first year I began to notice a decline in availability for weeks owners reserving as weeks owners. Until this year I hadn’t really noticed the disparity in points received and points required for most weeks in gold/silver season as we always book in November/December, which cost more in points than what we receive for our week. What I now believe has happened is that Silver season owners have awakened to the descrepancy noted in this thread and all owners who enrolled their weeks and travel in May, Sept, or Oct have deposited their weeks. Marriott may have been pretty smart in locking up the cheaper weeks while holding the more expensive weeks, knowing weeks owners like myself would want to use those weeks as weeks and not points.
> 
> I’ll have to wait another couple of months to see how this shakes out for us. It would be a HUGE disappointment if it becomes difficult or impossible to travel to out home resort in December. We use this as an end of year vacation to relax and work all the knots accumulated over a long year of work. This week has become very important and looked forward to in our yearly vacation plans


Wouldn't you just love to have the actual and simple answer for these issues sometimes though it'd cut  traffic on TUG and similar sites by likely 90%.  I know there have been some computer glitches where inventory didn't show up and there have been times when the release of inventory didn't match what is supposed to happen.  Marriott is technically bound to make reservations using points they have control over to the same rules as the rest of us but having inside access they still have quite an advantage.  You'd think they'll take the best weeks available to them as rental or for other cash generating options.  Likely the same weeks most everyone else wants as well.  

Doug, are you able to reserve at 13 months or are you limited to the 12 month option?


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## dougp26364 (Sep 29, 2018)

Dean said:


> Wouldn't you just love to have the actual and simple answer for these issues sometimes though it'd cut  traffic on TUG and similar sites by likely 90%.  I know there have been some computer glitches where inventory didn't show up and there have been times when the release of inventory didn't match what is supposed to happen.  Marriott is technically bound to make reservations using points they have control over to the same rules as the rest of us but having inside access they still have quite an advantage.  You'd think they'll take the best weeks available to them as rental or for other cash generating options.  Likely the same weeks most everyone else wants as well.
> 
> Doug, are you able to reserve at 13 months or are you limited to the 12 month option?



I can easily in points, but we don’t use points for our Ocean Pointe week as we like to stay in the full 3 bedroom unit we own. With points for our timeframe we could only get a 1 bedroom ocean front unit. In weeks the issue would be the need to book concurrent weeks. First, we’ve been converting our other ownership, Grand Chateau, to points as illness and job changes have necessitated variations in how we vacation and, even if we weren’t using points, we prefer March or October in Vegas, making concurrent weeks not an option we’d use. So, I don’t see an easy way to book our Ocean Point week 13 months out


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## Dean (Sep 29, 2018)

dougp26364 said:


> I can easily in points, but we don’t use points for our Ocean Pointe week as we like to stay in the full 3 bedroom unit we own. With points for our timeframe we could only get a 1 bedroom ocean front unit. In weeks the issue would be the need to book concurrent weeks. First, we’ve been converting our other ownership, Grand Chateau, to points as illness and job changes have necessitated variations in how we vacation and, even if we weren’t using points, we prefer March or October in Vegas, making concurrent weeks not an option we’d use. So, I don’t see an easy way to book our Ocean Point week 13 months out


Thanks for the response.  We've structure our ownerships purposefully to take advantage of the 13 month reservation options for Grande Ocean which we typical use week 25 or 26 anyway.  We have 10 units next year for a family trip, 7 owned and 3 on points.  The owned weeks were much easier to reserve than the points the last few times we've done both.


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## Superchief (Sep 29, 2018)

A few people previously suggested making points reservations within the 60 window. I checked availability and there is currently only 1 date available for 7 nights in a 3 BR. December still has a few check in dates, but all are still at full cost of 5900 points. I would expect availability for 3BR within the 60 day window will be very limited, so I understand why Doug would prefer to use his week for the reservation.

I think a major flaw in the program is the requirement to select points prior to being able to check weeks reservations later in the year. I have a similar situation with Canyon Villas and Royal Palms. I typically reserve them for later in the year, and neither provide good values for DC points.


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