# Trust vs. Deed



## Pjdani07 (Sep 3, 2019)

Help! Purchased into Wydham WCA (Trust) in March 2019; used it for the first time and was told that my maintenance fees were going to be a huge burden for us and our children later on as they tend to go up 7-17% yearly! They basically said that we were played pretty bad on our purchase and that we should get a deed instead, as we would be paying about the same amount and our fees would go up only about 1-2%. (And our kids would be able to sell the equity later if they wanted). From reading the posts on this site it appears I may have time to cancel. Please advise... Did I make the wrong decision and if I do cancel will my first purchase go back to the way it was?? I thought perhaps they really w ere helping us but now I think I was fooled....AGAIN  Thanks!


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## Grammarhero (Sep 3, 2019)

Pjdani07 said:


> Help! Purchased into Wydham WCA (Trust) in March 2019; used it for the first time and was told that my maintenance fees were going to be a huge burden for us and our children later on as they tend to go up 7-17% yearly! They basically said that we were played pretty bad on our purchase and that we should get a deed instead, as we would be paying about the same amount and our fees would go up only about 1-2%. (And our kids would be able to sell the equity later if they wanted). From reading the posts on this site it appears I may have time to cancel. Please advise... Did I make the wrong decision and if I do cancel will my first purchase go back to the way it was?? I thought perhaps they really w ere helping us but now I think I was fooled....AGAIN  Thanks!



You should rescind. CWA isn’t that bad MF at $6.5MF/1k. Only deeded resorts worth getting (resale) are Canterbury, Bali hai, Natl Harbor, Panama City, Grand Desert, wakaki, Ocean Blvd, and Clearwater, all of which can be bought resale for $300 (Clearwater) to $1,200 (Canterbury) per 100k EY pts. I am attaching the MF chart.

With rescission, Your first purchase goes back to the same way it was. I have attached rescission instructions. How much would the rescission save you?


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## Jan M. (Sep 3, 2019)

CWA does have higher maintenance fees than a lot of the resorts. For 2019 it is $5.99 per thousand points before the program fee. When we talk about maintenance fees we give the figures before the program fee because the program fee is different depending on if you own developer or resale points and if you don't own enough points to be over the minimum program fee.

Where did they have you buy that is deeded? They could actually have you jumping from the frying pan to the fire because there are resorts with even higher maintenance fees than CWA. Bonnet Creek is a popular resort with many people and the maintenance fees are $6.16 per thousand points. 

Also how many CWA points did you have and how many points did they sell you this time?

Grand Desert isn't the very lowest when it comes to maintenance fees but it is in the lower range. Buildings 1 and 2 are $4.73 and building 3 is $4.82 per thousand points. If you aren't VIP and have no desire to reach a VIP level many people are going to suggest you buy resale. If you are looking for resale points Grand Desert is a good one to look for because you can usually find listings for points there at a good price. There are other resorts with lower maintenance fees but you are going to pay a lot more for those deeds when you buy resale.

My personal issue with CWA points is that you don't actually own anything like you do when you are deeded at a resort. With CWA Wyndham retains ownership of the deeds and you have a contract with Wyndham for the use of x number of points per year. Also not all resorts have inventory in CWA. With the resorts that do have inventory in CWA, some don't have a lot. So their claim of having early access to the CWA inventory at the resorts in CWA isn't always quite as rosy as it sounds. However many owners do find it advantageous to own CWA because it does give them early access to the CWA inventory at a number of resorts that have a larger amount of inventory in CWA.


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## Jan M. (Sep 3, 2019)

I noticed that the CWA maintenance fee figure in the chart posted by Grammarhero isn't accurate. At $5.86 it  doesn't include the $0.13 for the reserve fund. I don't remember who created the chart Grammarhero posted or if there are any other inaccuracies but it does give you some idea. You can also look at the stickies at the top of the Wyndham forums. There are stickies for the 2017, 2018 and 2019 maintenance fees. The 2017 stickie is two years out of date but the most extensive list.


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## bendadin (Sep 3, 2019)

Pjdani07 said:


> Help! Purchased into Wydham WCA (Trust) in March 2019; used it for the first time and was told that my maintenance fees were going to be a huge burden for us and our children later on as they tend to go up 7-17% yearly! They basically said that we were played pretty bad on our purchase and that we should get a deed instead, as we would be paying about the same amount and our fees would go up only about 1-2%. (And our kids would be able to sell the equity later if they wanted). From reading the posts on this site it appears I may have time to cancel. Please advise... Did I make the wrong decision and if I do cancel will my first purchase go back to the way it was?? I thought perhaps they really w ere helping us but now I think I was fooled....AGAIN  Thanks!



What did you buy, where, and how much? CWA is fine IF you need ARP at one of those resorts. And how many CWA did you trade in? Rescission isn't always the best option. I'd totally trade in my CWA for the "right" contract at the "right" price.


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## Pjdani07 (Sep 3, 2019)

Thank-you both!

154k pts "traded" for "308k"
New contract:
$12k down + $5k Equity from original contract + $45k financed = $62k new loan cost 
New loan is deed to NY45
Maint: $133/ month

Sales is texting me this morning to make sure that QA a time-stamped and submitted my paperwork in a timely manner because they were acting like the whole time that they were doing me a favor and I may not be able to get into a new contract for a deed. But it sounds like from what I am researching that all I did was a trade which of course was possible the whole time. I could be wrong though.  I appreciate you!


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## bendadin (Sep 3, 2019)

Pjdani07 said:


> Thank-you both!
> 
> 154k pts "traded" for "308k"
> New contract:
> ...



I would rescind. You already purchased the CWA and even after that, you are paying $201/k for those 308,000. Granted MF are much lower, but even at 308k, it does nothing for you as far as VIP. That is a heck of a lot of money for no benefits. 

Did you want/need more points? If so and VIP isn't something that you are going for, I would go into the resale market. I saw 195,000 points at Midtown 45 for around $1750 closed. That way you get more points, you pay less maintenance fees, and you keep your $62,000.


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## Pjdani07 (Sep 3, 2019)

Wow! Like $1,750.00 total and the only thing I pay for monthly is MF? Is the booking window 10 months? And I can add that to my already 154k for longer stays?


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## Grammarhero (Sep 3, 2019)

Pjdani07 said:


> Wow! Like $1,750.00 total and the only thing I pay for monthly is MF? Is the booking window 10 months? And I can add that to my already 154k for longer stays?



@Pjdani07 my go to source for free Wyndham Ts.  https://www.timesharenation.com/resort/Wyndham-Points


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## bendadin (Sep 3, 2019)

Pjdani07 said:


> Wow! Like $1,750.00 total and the only thing I pay for monthly is MF? Is the booking window 10 months? And I can add that to my already 154k for longer stays?



Yes. I've not inquired if it is still available but PM me and I can point you in the direction.


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## Pjdani07 (Sep 3, 2019)

Thanks! I appreciate the info, but honestly I was completely content with my 154k pts until I was told that LVegas haggled me. Resale could definitely be an option that I will look into later. Right now my concentration is on learning as much as I can on TS in general!


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## bendadin (Sep 3, 2019)

Pjdani07 said:


> Thanks! I appreciate the info, but honestly I was completely content with my 154k pts until I was told that LVegas haggled me. Resale could definitely be an option that I will look into later. Right now my concentration is on learning as much as I can on TS in general!



Learn how to use what you own. Read, read, read. 

Definitely rescind as you have a very finite amount of time to do so. Plus, they are going to start taking away your first contract and that will just be more headaches. Follow the instructions that are on a sticky to rescind.


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## spackler (Dec 10, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> I noticed that the CWA maintenance fee figure in the chart posted by Grammarhero isn't accurate. At $5.86 it  doesn't include the $0.13 for the reserve fund.



I don't understand why CWA needs a "reserve fund" to begin with.  Wouldn't reserves be covered by the underlying deeds?


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## SNA27 (Dec 10, 2019)

Never attend presentations at Midtown 45! It's worse than waterboarding torture with Joy Behar cackling at you like an enhanced interrogation technique!

How come they gave you only $5k against the original contract? Does that mean you still have a loan with Wyndham paying their usurious rates? Wow! what is the rate?

BAD IDEA to mortgage a depreciating asset like a TS, imo!* *

*RESCIND! *


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## SNA27 (Dec 10, 2019)

OP, just curious, at what stage did you capitulate?
In my case, I survived the minstrel, the wizard, and the liar! Then they brought in a blow-hard and a brow-beater rolled into one!
He claimed NY45 is worth more than the rest of Wyndham put together and I would be a damn fool for not getting in on such a sweet deal!
He had worked at CNBC blah blah and a financial genius blah blah! I am thinking 'so, you're all washed up and ended up here hustling the unwary?'.
But I dared not say it! After all, this is NY and I just want to escape in one piece!
Most unpleasant experience and what a relief it was to escape and get on with our sightseeing!


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## SNA27 (Dec 10, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> CWA does have higher maintenance fees than a lot of the resorts. For 2019 it is $5.99 per thousand points before the program fee. When we talk about maintenance fees we give the figures before the program fee because *the program fee is different depending on if you own developer or resale points* and if you don't own enough points to be over the minimum program fee.
> 
> Where did they have you buy that is deeded? They could actually have you jumping from the frying pan to the fire because there are resorts with even higher maintenance fees than CWA. Bonnet Creek is a popular resort with many people and the maintenance fees are $6.16 per thousand points.
> 
> ...



The program fee is different for developer points and resale? Could you please elaborate on this? Where can I info on this? Thx.


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## Jan M. (Dec 10, 2019)

Yes the program fee is higher for developer points than for resale points. For 2020 it will be $0.62 per thousand points for resale and $0.64 for developer points. I don't have the minimum program for developer but for resale someone posted that it is now $160. That means you would need to own 259,000 points to be over the minimum program fee. Divide the minimum fee by $0.62 or $0.64 depending on what you own to get the number of points you would need to own to be over the minimum program fee.

People who only own resale don't pay the higher program fee because they don't get Plus Partners. Plus Partners is what allows you to book Worldmark units with an additional $99 fee.


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## SNA27 (Dec 10, 2019)

Wow, that's counter-intuitive!
It never occurred to me that developer points would get a higher program fee than resale points!
As a developer points owner, I would have liked it to be the other way around!
Human nature being what it is, I hope Wyndham finds a way to draw more blood from resale owners!


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## SNA27 (Dec 10, 2019)

Here's an idea! They charge me a nebulous processing fee of $395! Charge resale buyers an additional 'extreme-vetting' fee to root out strip-and-dump gamers of the system! Put every resale through a rigorous escrow process that extracts the unpaid MF! If I am a game for you to hunt, then so are you! Beware!


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## Sandi Bo (Dec 11, 2019)

Resale owners pay maintenance fees and don't get benefits.


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## Eric B (Dec 11, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Wow, that's counter-intuitive!
> It never occurred to me that developer points would get a higher program fee than resale points!
> As a developer points owner, I would have liked it to be the other way around!
> Human nature being what it is, I hope Wyndham finds a way to draw more blood from resale owners!



The difficulty with that idea is that the extra $.02 you pay for developer points actually gets you something; access to the plus partner resorts for which you can't use resale points.  You have enough developer points to use for those now and can add resale points if you like at a lower cost for the program fee.  Human nature being what it is, you might buy some Wyndham stock because they will inevitably find ways to improve their profits from retail owners, resale owners, and exchangers using their resorts.  It shouldn't be by charging customer X for what they give customer Y, though.

Just adding my 2 cents....


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## Jan M. (Dec 14, 2019)

Eric B said:


> The difficulty with that idea is that the extra $.02 you pay for developer points actually gets you something; access to the plus partner resorts for which you can't use resale points.  You have enough developer points to use for those now and can add resale points if you like at a lower cost for the program fee.  Human nature being what it is, you might buy some Wyndham stock because they will inevitably find ways to improve their profits from retail owners, resale owners, and exchangers using their resorts.  It shouldn't be by charging customer X for what they give customer Y, though.
> 
> Just adding my 2 cents....



If you have a developer account with resale points also in it you will pay the two cents more for the program fees on your resale points also.


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## SNA27 (Dec 14, 2019)

Sandi Bo said:


> Resale owners pay maintenance fees and don't get benefits.



MF fees pay for the benefit of upkeeping your TS! No?

VIP benefits only apply during the 60-day discount window! I have to learn about other benefits that accrue to a VIP.

Apparently, I belong to some exclusive club called Outriggers! I haven't been able to learn the details. I have yet to earn any benefits from it. But, I guess, I must first learn before I can earn!


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## SNA27 (Dec 14, 2019)

Why is there an EXPIRE DATE?


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## dgalati (Dec 14, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> MF fees pay for the benefit of upkeeping your TS! No?
> 
> VIP benefits only apply during the 60-day discount window! I have to learn about other benefits that accrue to a VIP.
> 
> ...


Exactly! Learn to earn all that Wyndham is offering.


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## Eric B (Dec 14, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> If you have a developer account with resale points also in it you will pay the two cents more for the program fees on your resale points also.



Nice to know as we haven’t added any resale points to our account yet.  Can you use the resale points for plus partners, though?  I thought the limit on that was the number of PIC & developer points you have, though I guess that would be tough to do considering you can also borrow and PDF points.


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## SNA27 (Dec 14, 2019)

PDF? Is there a glossary for these acronyms?


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## Eric B (Dec 14, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> MF fees pay for the benefit of upkeeping your TS! No?
> 
> VIP benefits only apply during the 60-day discount window! I have to learn about other benefits that accrue to a VIP.
> 
> ...



VIP benefits apply when they apply depending on which one you’re talking about; for example, the reciprocal ARP applies between 10 & 11 months prior to check in and the midweek cleaning service applies a half week after check in.

Outrigger club is due to ownership at one of the Hawaiian resorts (e.g., Bali Hai).  It allows you ARP at the other ones and some access to associated Outrigger hotels/resorts.  Details are in the directory.




SNA27 said:


> Why is there an EXPIRE DATE?
> 
> View attachment 15500



That’s a new one for me - doesn’t show up on my account.  Maybe there adjusting things in the system for Privileges starting at the new year, but that’s just speculation.


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## Eric B (Dec 14, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> PDF? Is there a glossary for these acronyms?



It’s actually an initialism rather than an acronym since it’s not pronounceable as a word.  It refers to the points deposit feature.  It’s in the directory.  Definitely worth the reading to figure things out; TUG helps a lot but the directory is written by Wyndham and details how they act.  If you read it, you will likely know more about the system than most in Wyndham sales or many you get on the phone.


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 14, 2019)

Right now, your VIP level applies to all of your points (retail and resale). I can see Wyndham changing that where you only get developer benefits on your developer points. Club Pass only applies to developer points, plus partners is all points I think.


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## Eric B (Dec 14, 2019)

That’s what I thought, @cbyrne1174.  I guess that means I can use resale points for Plus Partners, though I’m not sure why I’d want to.  Kind of a moot point at present in any case.


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## Jan M. (Dec 14, 2019)

Eric B said:


> Nice to know as we haven’t added any resale points to our account yet.  Can you use the resale points for plus partners, though?  I thought the limit on that was the number of PIC & developer points you have, though I guess that would be tough to do considering you can also borrow and PDF points.



From what I know once resale points go into a developer account the system doesn't distinguish between developer and resale.


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## bogey21 (Dec 14, 2019)

I consider myself reasonably intelligent but all this makes my head spin.  I'm sure if I owned Wyndham, I would eventually figure it out.  But Wow!!!

George


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## dgalati (Dec 15, 2019)

bogey21 said:


> I consider myself reasonably intelligent but all this makes my head spin.  I'm sure if I owned Wyndham, I would eventually figure it out.  But Wow!!!
> 
> George


Wyndham has made this confusion with multiple programs by design. Its what I call daze and confuse. It starts the day you buy developer during a presentation. Many dont ever figure it out but a few do learn the system and take what Wyndham is giving. Good examples are Vip owners buying millions resale points and using with their  VIP  50% discount or buying into VIP with a PIC at a substantial $ discount. These are a few of the loopholes Wyndham has created for anyone to take advantage of.


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## dgalati (Dec 15, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> From what I know once resale points go into a developer account the system doesn't distinguish between developer and resale.


Correct once VIP all resale points can Be used as VIP points. Most importantly when booking in th 50% discount window or as other VIP points benifits apply.


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## dgalati (Dec 15, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Here's an idea! They charge me a nebulous processing fee of $395! Charge resale buyers an additional 'extreme-vetting' fee to root out strip-and-dump gamers of the system! Put every resale through a rigorous escrow process that extracts the unpaid MF! If I am a game for you to hunt, then so are you! Beware!


VIP owners are one of the largest buyers of resale points. If you try to eliminate resale buyers there would be many deeds that would become delinquent on maintenance fees causing current owners to pay more over time. Be thankful for the resale buyers they are a important part of the finacial burden of paying maintenance fees .


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## Sandi Bo (Dec 15, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Why is there an EXPIRE DATE?
> 
> View attachment 15500


I do not have an expire date.  Maybe something to do with your pics?   I really don't know.


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## Sandi Bo (Dec 15, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> MF fees pay for the benefit of upkeeping your TS! No?
> 
> VIP benefits only apply during the 60-day discount window! I have to learn about other benefits that accrue to a VIP.
> 
> ...


Outrigger resorts are available to you if you own some Hawaii contracts.   I do not, nor do I have any pics:





I should have been more clear (on my opinion) on resale owners paying maintenance fees.  They are necessary for Wyndham. No idea how many there are, but Wyndham needs them.  Can you imagine the maintenance fees they are covering?  If Wyndham didn't need them, things would not work the way they do today.


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## Sandi Bo (Dec 15, 2019)

Sandi Bo said:


> I do not have an expire date.  Maybe something to do with your pics?   I really don't know.


Sorry I messed up and editing didn't allow a screen shot.  Here's my Ownership Details tab:


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## MoPops (Dec 15, 2019)

dgalati said:


> VIP owners are one of the largest buyers of resale points. If you try to eliminate resale buyers there would be many deeds that would become delinquent on maintenance fees causing current owners to pay more over time. Be thankful for the resale buyers they are a important part of the finacial burden of paying maintenance fees .



Mostly a lurker here, just trying to learn Wyndham.  But I do have a question.   
We are presently silver VIP with CWA points and a PIC.  I was thinking of buying more points to get to gold.  Telesales wants $147 per 1000 points (I need 49,000 points) or $7,200.  
Would I come out ahead just buying resale Wyndham points? I guess it all boils down to maintenance fees.  We don’t travel that much, and have a travel trailer for some trips.  
I don’t want to end up with points I can’t use, and MFs I’m stuck with.  Paying for gold or just adding resale?  I still haven’t figured out what I need to know to even decide.. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dgalati (Dec 15, 2019)

MoPops said:


> Mostly a lurker here, just trying to learn Wyndham.  But I do have a question.
> We are presently silver VIP with CWA points and a PIC.  I was thinking of buying more points to get to gold.  Telesales wants $147 per 1000 points (I need 49,000 points) or $7,200.
> Would I come out ahead just buying resale Wyndham points? I guess it all boils down to maintenance fees.  We don’t travel that much, and have a travel trailer for some trips.
> I don’t want to end up with points I can’t use, and MFs I’m stuck with.  Paying for gold or just adding resale?  I still haven’t figured out what I need to know to even decide..
> ...


I believe You can PIC to Gold at a lower cost. Many here can explain it. @Richelle  or @HitchHiker71


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 15, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Why is there an EXPIRE DATE?
> 
> View attachment 15500


I actually have a VIPP account with an Expire Date that shows up from time to time on my home page.  AND, I asked Owner Care about it just this morning.  I was told that my account has enough points for VIPP, so the specialist had no idea.  She did offer up that it may be related to the expire date I have on some bonus points. 

So, I'll ask you, did you have bonus points with an expire date of 12/30/19?  If not this, I'm very curious to learn about what happens to your account on 12/31/19.  Will the odd expire data just disappear?  Or will your ownership get all messed up.


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## SNA27 (Dec 15, 2019)

I do have a bonus contract use-year 2018-2019 but all 145k points in were used up long ago! 
I do have two new contracts for 84k each at WBC and Smoky Mountain kicking in Jan 2020. Smoky Mountain still doesn't show even though the piggyback transaction complete. 
Wyndham moves mysteriously like a snake. Only a snake knows about its legs!


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 15, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> I do have a bonus contract use-year 2018-2019 but all 145k points in were used up long ago!


The bonus point line should still show up on your points list with a balance of zero.  Was the expiration date on those points 12/30/19?  If so, this might explain the expire date you are seeing on your account.  And, that would be consistent with what owner care suggested to me as the reason for this inaccurate message.


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## SNA27 (Dec 16, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> The bonus point line should still show up on your points list with a balance of zero.  Was the expiration date on those points 12/30/19?  If so, this might explain the expire date you are seeing on your account.  And, that would be consistent with what owner care suggested to me as the reason for this inaccurate message.



I have two other bonus contracts 2019-2020 and 2020-2021. So, if the expiry date changes to 12/31/2020 on the 1st of January, we can understand a little more of this mysterious 'black box'. That would be OK in the case of Temporary Platinum but it makes no sense in my case since I have enough points for permanent VIPP. 

That leads me to draw some more conclusions about this 'black box'. They have made an Independent variable out of a dependent variable. Smh!

If y = f(x), you must always calculate y as a function of x and not MANUALLY assign a value to y.
That is, if VIP status is a function of points owned during the year, the VIP Status can be easily programmatically assigned so the functional relationship is always consistent.
I suspect, they run some kind of exception process at yearend and review and reassign VIP status appropriately. 
Or VIP Status has some kind of effective-dating based on bonus contracts that forces yearend review. Professional curiosity!

Still, they should be able to differentiate between permanent and temporary status and avoid unnecessary calls to Owner Care. 
Not that I would call them but I bet they get calls on this and Owner Care is forced to guess and offer a plausible explanation.

I only hope this assignment is not done manually by a human operator. It would be error-prone and open to abuse.


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## SNA27 (Dec 16, 2019)

Is VIP status effective-dated?

A temporary VIPP in 2019, books in December for January 2020? What benefits apply, Platinum or Gold?

What if the reservation is for 12/27/2019 to 1/3/2020? I would say platinum for the whole duration or else, it becomes a nightmare code!


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## Eric B (Dec 16, 2019)

The way it is implemented, the points come out of your account when you make a reservation and any discounts are given based on your status then.  So a temporary VIPP making a January reservation in December would get the 50% discount, assuming a 12/31 expiration of the bonus contract getting them the temporary status.  If they changed there mind later and canceled the reservation, then waffled and rebooked it in January they’d just get the VIPG or VIPS discount based on their then current status.


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## SNA27 (Dec 16, 2019)

So, no effective dating? Even though 2020 reservations can only be made with 2020 points, you get the benefits that accrue to your current status.

Is this documented in the directory or can only be discerned by empirical evidence gathered via experimentation? Wyndham is so mysterious!


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## Jan M. (Dec 16, 2019)

MoPops said:


> Mostly a lurker here, just trying to learn Wyndham.  But I do have a question.
> We are presently silver VIP with CWA points and a PIC.  I was thinking of buying more points to get to gold.  Telesales wants $147 per 1000 points (I need 49,000 points) or $7,200.
> Would I come out ahead just buying resale Wyndham points? I guess it all boils down to maintenance fees.  We don’t travel that much, and have a travel trailer for some trips.
> I don’t want to end up with points I can’t use, and MFs I’m stuck with.  Paying for gold or just adding resale?  I still haven’t figured out what I need to know to even decide..
> ...



I would do the telesales deal for the 49,000 points and add another PIC Plus week in a three or four bedroom unit. That would be worth 254,000 points. It would make you platinum. 

Log into your Wyndham account. Click on Owner 101, then Knowledge Base and under My Membership click on VIP Booking Benefits. The difference in the silver and gold benefits are significant. Platinum are even better. 

I don't know your ages but you may find staying at the resorts more appealing as you age. My husband finally retired last year and we are staying at our timeshares more than we are home now. In our travels we've done some mountain driving, driving in heavy rain or winds and snow too. We are both good drivers and like driving but there is no way either one of us would want to be driving a motor home or pulling a travel trailer in the less than ideal driving conditions we've sometimes experienced. We flat out don't want to have the work and headaches of a motor home or travel trailer. As platinum VIP we  get a mid week trash and tidy at the Wyndham resorts if we want it and if we stay more than a week they do a full clean. If there are any problems/issues we call to have maintenance or housekeeping take care of it. 

There are a few things of our own that we like having and they are easy enough to pack in the car and bring with us. There is a thread in the TUG Lounge about the things people who stay in their timeshares a lot bring with them/keep packed for their stays.


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## Eric B (Dec 16, 2019)

They are fairly explicitly described as benefits that apply when you book a reservation.  For better or worse they don’t go into excruciating detail on status change implications, probably because it could open the possibility of having to revise point costs for people that upgrade and become eligible for a larger discount after they’ve made a reservation.  They do describe all of the benefits in terms that bound the times when they apply; the other possible change would be a temporary VIP making a reservation and getting an upgrade, then transitioning to non-VIP and checking in without being able to do so early and not getting a mid week cleaning, etc.


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## cbyrne1174 (Dec 16, 2019)

Don't the point values change in Jan? I though December was the last month that VIPP was 1M+ and VIPG was 700k+. But as Jan said, since you are close to Platinum, I would just get another PIC and go all the way and rent out the points you don't need.


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## paxsarah (Dec 16, 2019)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Don't the point values change in Jan?



Privileges is still in development and scheduled to roll out in late 2020. No change as far as we know in January 2020.


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## Eric B (Dec 16, 2019)

@MoPops, What you need to take into account is the difference in ongoing costs for the points and whether the benefits of VIPG or VIPP meet your needs.  Right now, Bali Hai points are ~37% less expensive than CWA (using 2020 costs and plus partners program fees).  That’s about the same as a VIPG 60-day discount, but works all year, so a resale Bali Hai contract could be a good deal.  It won’t change your current CWA costs, though.  Going to VIPG or VIPP will get you discounts at 70-days out and unlimited transactions, which can be helpful.  You should also look at the effective cost of your PIC points; mine come in around $5/1k.

Keep in mind that telesales will likely only let you do one PIC per 49K point purchase, which could equate to a boost of 303K.  Not sure how many you have now, but it must be less than 700K, so I don’t believe you’ll get to platinum unless I’ve misjudged - my guess is you’re right around 400K now, so a 49K plus a 3 or 4 BR PIC would get you gold grandfathered into the new equivalent.  That does have value in the long term, but in the short term resale can be better.  There have been a number of Shearwater EOY contracts that are in the 500-600K range that have sold on eBay in the last few months for around $4100; I believe it’s at around the same MF as Bali Hai.  Best to do your own due diligence.


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## SNA27 (Dec 16, 2019)

Mysterious! EXPIRE DATE disappeared! Let's see if it reappears on 1/1/2020! Or HAL did routine integrity checks and realized I am a permanent VIPP!


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## Richelle (Dec 16, 2019)

MoPops said:


> Mostly a lurker here, just trying to learn Wyndham.  But I do have a question.
> We are presently silver VIP with CWA points and a PIC.  I was thinking of buying more points to get to gold.  Telesales wants $147 per 1000 points (I need 49,000 points) or $7,200.
> Would I come out ahead just buying resale Wyndham points? I guess it all boils down to maintenance fees.  We don’t travel that much, and have a travel trailer for some trips.
> I don’t want to end up with points I can’t use, and MFs I’m stuck with.  Paying for gold or just adding resale?  I still haven’t figured out what I need to know to even decide..
> ...



I assume since you said 49,000 points, you are looking to enroll a second PIC?  If so, I need a little more information, so I can answer your question. Do you currently have a week you can enroll into PIC Plus?  If so, what are the maintenance fees?  If not, do you have an idea of what week you want to buy enroll?  Whether you come out ahead depends on your maintenance fees for the second PIC. In most cases, the maintenance fees on the PIC will be cheaper then any maintenance fees on the equivalent about of points. For example, I have a PIC that gets me 254,000 points. When you factor in the $89 fee to exchange them, the MF rate is $3.81 cents per 1,000. That does not include the program fee you pay on those points. It’s the same fee you would pay on your regular points. So it’s cheaper then CWA points, but not cheaper then Bali Hai or Canterbury. However, if you buy those resale, you won’t be VIP gold. If you buy them retail, it’s significantly more expensive. 

Another thing to factor is, what benefits can you use with Gold?  Discounts and upgrades are never a guarantee. So don’t make those a deciding factor. Consider those a bonus. What other benefits have value to you, and are they worth the $7,200?  The 9 months to move points forward, the unlimited reservation transaction credits and housekeeping has substantial value for me. That $7,200 can buy a significant number of reservation transaction credits or housekeeping. The value is not having to worry about them increasing the price. I say, you already have a ton of money dumped into the system, Go gold for that cheap price and let that be it. If you have extra points, you have nine months to move then forward. If you cannot move then, rent them out to friends and family. Or put them into RCI. 

Of course there will be plenty who say that benefits can be taken away. They are not entirely wrong, but previous history shows Wyndham is a fan of the grandfather model.


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## MoPops (Dec 16, 2019)

Jan M. said:


> I would do the telesales deal for the 49,000 points and add another PIC Plus week in a three or four bedroom unit. That would be worth 254,000 points. It would make you platinum.
> 
> Log into your Wyndham account. Click on Owner 101, then Knowledge Base and under My Membership click on VIP Booking Benefits. The difference in the silver and gold benefits are significant. Platinum are even better.
> 
> ...



Thanks Jan.  A for instance would be this September, we are heading out with the trailer and going through Montana, up to Washington state, then down the coast as far as Napa. Then turning back east towards home.  With the trailer we stop where we want and stay or leave whenever we want. Slow paced for sure.  I just retired in Aug. We added CWA points and traded Durango (high MF) points.  We bought a PIC from Timeshare Nation that got us to silver.  I want to be able to head out on short notice for a week here or a few days there to escape winter cold or summer heat.  (All while driving.)  We have grandkids close, and a farm to take care of besides our home.  I don’t see us using more than 3 or 4 weeks max.  I think I’d be happy with gold, maybe even silver. 
The more I think about it the more I think we will just sit tight, and rent if we need more weeks.  The telesales rep has been pushing me to add the CWA points because I’ll be grandfathered into whatever gold is going to be.  She was totally amazed I didn’t jump on the cyber Monday deal, which is still available I guess.  lol 
She did get me thinking though.  Thanks for the advice.  


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## Eric B (Dec 16, 2019)

The cyber Monday deal seemed to be just the same as the ordinary telesales pricing, so I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.  The same deal will always be there.  There might be a need to get more points to get to the new Privileges level, but on the other hand there are trade offs that you have to consider in order for it to make sense to get the VIP status.


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## MoPops (Dec 16, 2019)

Eric B said:


> The cyber Monday deal seemed to be just the same as the ordinary telesales pricing, so I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.  The same deal will always be there.  There might be a need to get more points to get to the new Privileges level, but on the other hand there are trade offs that you have to consider in order for it to make sense to get the VIP status.



Yes, on the cyber Monday deal. Made me laugh.   
I think I need to see if we can use the points we have before adding more.  I also had heard in order to get grandfathered in at gold and to move to Champion (if I remember right) I had to buy before the end of the year.  Now I see from a post above that the new levels don’t start for a while.   
Thx 


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## Eric B (Dec 16, 2019)

MoPops said:


> Yes, on the cyber Monday deal. Made me laugh.
> I think I need to see if we can use the points we have before adding more.  I also had heard in order to get grandfathered in at gold and to move to Champion (if I remember right) I had to buy before the end of the year.  Now I see from a post above that the new levels don’t start for a while.
> Thx



Just went through a sales pitch in Austin and they said it would be starting on 1/1 but couldn't provide anything to back up that statement.  Also couldn't provide any details as to what the changes would be, which seemed quite odd for something happening that soon.  They couldn't be just making things up, could they...?


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 16, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Is VIP status effective-dated?
> 
> A temporary VIPP in 2019, books in December for January 2020? What benefits apply, Platinum or Gold?
> 
> What if the reservation is for 12/27/2019 to 1/3/2020? I would say platinum for the whole duration or else, it becomes a nightmare code!


A simple test for you.  Book something for Jan 2020 and see what your discount is.  If it's 50%, the expire date is of no meaning.  You are permanent VIPP, so your discount should be 50%.  Anything less and I'd suggest you call Owner Care.


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## Cyrus24 (Dec 16, 2019)

SNA27 said:


> Mysterious! EXPIRE DATE disappeared! Let's see if it reappears on 1/1/2020! Or HAL did routine integrity checks and realized I am a permanent VIPP!
> 
> View attachment 15549


My expire date comes and goes.  No rhyme nor reason.  Keep watching, it'll be back.


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## SNA27 (Dec 17, 2019)

To paraphrase a saying about guns:
Computers don't act stupid, their programmers do!


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## Jan M. (Dec 17, 2019)

MoPops said:


> Thanks Jan.  A for instance would be this September, we are heading out with the trailer and going through Montana, up to Washington state, then down the coast as far as Napa. Then turning back east towards home.  With the trailer we stop where we want and stay or leave whenever we want. Slow paced for sure.  I just retired in Aug. We added CWA points and traded Durango (high MF) points.  We bought a PIC from Timeshare Nation that got us to silver.  I want to be able to head out on short notice for a week here or a few days there to escape winter cold or summer heat.  (All while driving.)  We have grandkids close, and a farm to take care of besides our home.  I don’t see us using more than 3 or 4 weeks max.  I think I’d be happy with gold, maybe even silver.
> The more I think about it the more I think we will just sit tight, and rent if we need more weeks.  The telesales rep has been pushing me to add the CWA points because I’ll be grandfathered into whatever gold is going to be.  She was totally amazed I didn’t jump on the cyber Monday deal, which is still available I guess.  lol
> She did get me thinking though.  Thanks for the advice.
> 
> ...



It's not like you have to decide anything right now. The new VIP levels don't happen until late 2020 and it will be some months yet before the final details on the level benefits are officially announced. We do know for sure that current owners will be be grandfathered into the new point levels and names when the changes become effective. This was all discussed at the owner's meeting in Austin at the beginning of November. Some of us had the opportunity to talk to the execs after the meeting. Unlike sales they are and have to be extremely careful about what they say. 

One thing to take into consideration is that from what you said you have your kid or kids and grandkids who can also benefit from being able to stay at the timeshare resorts. Your ownership with the VIP benefits is something that can be passed down to them should they choose to accept it. You can leave your timeshare to someone in your will but that doesn't obligate them to accept it. So that isn't a concern.

The difference between silver and gold is significant. The discount at 60 days increases from 25% to 35% and the upgrade window goes from 30 days to 45 days. The extra 10% savings on the number of points needed can make a lot of difference in what a reservation costs you in the maintenance fees on the number of points you use for a reservation. What you see for upgrades is significantly better at 45 days than 30 days. And platinum gets a 50% discount with upgrades at 60 days.

Silver doesn't get unlimited transactions but gold does. Those transaction fees are $19 each after the couple of free ones you get with silver. When you are making reservations hoping to get a stay to come together having unlimited transaction fees is a big deal. At many resorts it can be fairly easy to get the Sunday through Thursday stays with the discount and upgrade too. You can book the Friday and Saturday at full points or book the larger unit you need in the discount window if a smaller unit isn't available for the discount and upgrade. Many people are very successful at making stays come together to use as few points as possible. People will build a stay in two to four day increments and that takes more transactions fees if you are having to pay for them on the chance you can make the stay come together. As long as all the pieces of the stay are in exactly the same unit size and type most resorts will do everything they can to keep you in the same unit to keep their housekeeping expenses down.

From silver to gold the number of free guest certificates increases from 5 to 10. At $99 each that is a savings of $495 a year if you are using guest certificates. Platinum gets 15 per million points.

Gold and platinum can also request specific units when they make a reservation. There are certain resorts we stay at that I want a unit that gives us a view of the ocean, lake, mountains, etc. If you aren't familiar with the unit numbers at a resort you can call the resort to ask them. It helps if you don't call at a time when they are busy checking people in, like don't call between 2pm-6pm.

When I talked about the disadvantages of having a motor home or travel trailer that is more of a concern if you would have a major health problem or be older which would make it difficult to do the driving or setting up at the campgrounds. Some older people transition from their motor homes and travel trailers to the timeshares when those things become too much for them.

We know and and in our stays have met people who travel with their motorhomes or travel trailers. They really like having the occasional stay at the timeshares during their travels. That gives them the best of both worlds. If you farm I'm guessing that you have down time in January and February. Before my husband retired his territory was all of Florida south of Sarasota and across to Fort Pierce. We also own at non Wyndham resorts that give us points through RCI. There are so many great resorts in Florida available through RCI. When I would find reservations at resorts that appealed to us if my husband had a few days work in that area I would confirm the reservation and off we went. During those stays we met a lot of people in our age group and older who farm and like to come to Florida in their winter down time. On our recent stay in Hawaii we met a couple from Canada who spend time in Arizona and Mexico during the winter months.

The people we've met during our travels have been a bad influence on us. Hearing them talk about some of the places they've been gives us more ideas.

You may find yourselves using your timeshare more than you think. I know our first year of retirement we were still kind of finding our feet. But like I said you have time to figure it out and think about it.


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## MoPops (Dec 17, 2019)

Thanks again Jan.  I really appreciate all the information.  We are, in fact using Wyndham as a break from the travel trailer in late Feb. we will leave one of the Florida state parks we have reservations in, and head over to Orlando to stay three nights at Bonnet Creek.  (I used some Wyndham points we had transformed to RCI because they were going to expire, then they were going to expire at RCI) We had trouble finding a location though that would let us bring our airstream in while we were there.  (That appears to be another issue with a travel trailer.) 
We haven’t stayed in many Wyndham locations over the years. We’ve mostly used transferred points to RCI, probably the most expensive way to use the points, but they were expiring.  We’ve almost always used the points to get to the mountains during ski season.  Last year we stayed in a Wyndham TS near Ft Lauderdale, and were not real impressed. Hopefully Bonnet Creek will give us a better impression.  But then again, we don’t know which building, which side of the building, which floor, etc. to even look for.  


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