# Need advice regarding our swimming pool contractor.



## thickey (Jul 10, 2012)

Hey there.  Not sure where to turn, so thought I'd vent a little here.  Hope you don't mind...
Back in April, we contracted a guy to build a swimming pool for us.  We signed the papers and gave him a deposit to order the pool.  He told us that it would take 2 - 4 weeks to complete once the pool was delivered.  The pool arrived May 16th.  He is still not done.
This has been the most frustrating process we have ever been through.  The guys shows up only about once a week and works for 30 - 60 minutes.  When he does work, it is very fast-paced, almost frantic.  I think he shows up just enough to be making some progress, so I cannot complain to someone.  He usually shows up just before dark, and has even done some work with a flashlight!
I have had several stern talks with him.  He seems to be a nice guy, is very apologetic, and promises that things will change.
After a threat or two from us, he finally got things to a point to where our kids and us are finally able to swim in the pool, but the deck is not complete, we have to tiptoe through the mud,  the yard is a mess, the fence is still down, and he has many other things yet to do.  I refuse to pay him any more until it is done, but it hasn't sped things up at all!  I feel that he is spending all of his time doing the higher-priced jobs first, and gives us any leftover time (which is not much... at all!).  I feel he should be ashamed for how he has treated us, and feel that he is taking advantage of our good nature.
I am not sure where to turn.  I am afraid that if I complain to the BBB or something, we may NEVER get done.
Anyone have any ideas?
Is there a licensing board that oversees these contractors?
Thanks - Tim


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## bogey21 (Jul 10, 2012)

I had a similar experience about 20 years ago.  Fortunately I owed the contractor a substantial amount of money for the work already completed.  Refusing to pay until everything was complete was my only leverage.  Ultimately it worked.  Good luck.

George


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## jmurp62 (Jul 10, 2012)

*Deja Vu*

Wow! First of all I am sorry with the troubles you are having. This guy sounds like my contractor, except I'm sure he is too lazy to travel from Nashville to Knoxville. I contracted with my next door neighbor, of all people, and he never finished the job. Same as you he never took the time to complete things, fence down too long, big hole in the yard, etc. Well, then I hired a 2nd guy who wasn't much better. He had put in a whirlpool tub for me previously and did a decent job. Well, long story short, he was even worse than my neighbor. I do sympathize with you and let you know you are not alone. Hope you are able to complete the job, just wanna know you are not alone.
Jim
PS - GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR


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## am1 (Jul 10, 2012)

Best not to pay up front.


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## easyrider (Jul 10, 2012)

You have the right to be frustrated by your contractors inability to get the job done. 

BUT, it may not be all his fault and it definitly isn't yours.

Many contractors are working with a smaller crew these days because of the recession, regulations, new taxes and needing to keep certain key employees working year round. 

Another problem is suppliers are not stocking everything anymore, and the weather has really slowed work down in certain areas. 

This year many crews are off at 11 am to 1 pm because of heat. Many municipalities require a contractor to not start work until 6 or 7 am.

So it sounds like your guy is doing his best to keep everyone happy but might be a little spread out. 

Speaking harshly to your contractor and not paying will surely get you put way back on the list. 

Bill


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## DeniseM (Jul 10, 2012)

easyrider said:


> So it sounds like your guy is doing his best to keep everyone happy but might be a little spread out.



Did you read the OP's post carefully?



> The guys shows up only about once a week and works for 30 - 60 minutes.



No reasonable person would consider 30-60 min a week "doing his best," or "a little spread out."


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## Icc5 (Jul 10, 2012)

*Nose*

Does he happen to go out to his truck every so often and has a nose problem.
We once had a guy doing fans for us and he did great work.  The only problem is putting in 5 ceiling fans took 7 months.  He kept telling us about all the things that were going on in his life.  Towards the end of the time we noticed he would go out to his truck often and we couldn't see what he was doing but whenever he came back in he would be constantly rubbing his nose.
We would have got rid of him a long time ago but I had seen his work before (finished work).  I guess drugs to that to you.
Bart


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## easyrider (Jul 10, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> Did you read the OP's post carefully?
> 
> 
> 
> No reasonable person would consider 30-60 min a week "doing his best," or "a little spread out."



YUP, I did.   Being a general contractor for over 30 years I can say that some jobs take longer than expected. By showing up and not blowing Tim off I think the guy is trying to keep Tim happy. 

SO, reasonable under what circumstance ? We really don't know.

Bill


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## klpca (Jul 10, 2012)

thickey said:


> Hey there.  Not sure where to turn, so thought I'd vent a little here.  Hope you don't mind...
> Back in April, we contracted a guy to build a swimming pool for us.  We signed the papers and gave him a deposit to order the pool.  He told us that it would take 2 - 4 weeks to complete once the pool was delivered.  The pool arrived May 16th.  He is still not done.
> This has been the most frustrating process we have ever been through.  The guys shows up only about once a week and works for 30 - 60 minutes.  When he does work, it is very fast-paced, almost frantic.  I think he shows up just enough to be making some progress, so I cannot complain to someone.  He usually shows up just before dark, and has even done some work with a flashlight!
> I have had several stern talks with him.  He seems to be a nice guy, is very apologetic, and promises that things will change.
> ...



What does your contract say? Is there a completion clause? Personally, I'd have one more chat with him and let him know that he needs to finish the job or you will make arrangements with someone else to finish. Contractors always have one sob story after another - can you imagine being able to go in to work and tell your boss some excuse and you would suffer no repercussions? Heck no. My boss doesn't care if the IT guy messed up my computer or if I have to get a root canal - the response is, "ok, well can you stay late and finish that project, or are you coming in this weekend to finish?" Because you know what, our customers don't care one bit. We need to deliver what we promised, and it needs to be on time. You have been more than patient and he's taking advantage of your good nature at this point. Btw, in California we have a state contractors licensing board. Perhaps your state has one too?


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## klpca (Jul 10, 2012)

nevermind.


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## easyrider (Jul 10, 2012)

Here is a sob story of one of my competitors, another general contractor trying to keep every one happy.

This guys wife came down with breast cancer. She was the office / business manager for their company. While trying to keep up with the work load he had a heart attack. Not wanting anyone to know about his circumstances some of his clients decided to go elsewhere but most of them waited and eventually recieved a great job.

A sub I know was hurt in a fall. He broke his femure and had to have a rod inserted.

A good friend who is a contractor, broke his leg so bad that he was out for 8 months.

A huge percentage of contractors are small businesses with less than 6 employees.

Tim, you should be able to complain anywhere you want without worrying about a legit contractor trying to get even. Angies List, BBB and word of mouth are just a few places.

Bill


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## klpca (Jul 11, 2012)

If a contractor leveled with me I'd be completely accommodating. But having lived without a roof for a month while adding a room addition pushed me to the edge. Our contractor would tell me, I'll be there tomorrow for sure, then not show up. I didn't get a roof until I told him that I'd be putting the job up for bids if it wasn't completed in a week. Miraculously it happened. I was nice for the prior two and a half months of the job. Not sure to this day why the roof was delayed. A little communication goes a long way. Unfortunately the bad contractors ruin it for everyone.

Btw, our pool (inground, gunnite) took 8 weeks start to finish including decking, as a reference point for the OP.


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## caribbeansun (Jul 11, 2012)

What does that have to do with anything?

I run a one person business, if something like any of those stories happened to me I'd contract out the work to someone that could complete the work while I was recovering from whatever the situation was.  

I wouldn't just cry "poor me" and screw over the customer.

Tell this guy that if he can't complete the job by "x" date that all the money you owe him will be used to pay someone else to complete the job. You only have leverage while you owe him money, the more you owe the better the leverage.

Good luck to you!





easyrider said:


> Here is a sob story of one of my competitors, another general contractor trying to keep every one happy.
> 
> This guys wife came down with breast cancer. She was the office / business manager for their company. While trying to keep up with the work load he had a heart attack. Not wanting anyone to know about his circumstances some of his clients decided to go elsewhere but most of them waited and eventually recieved a great job.
> 
> ...


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## thickey (Jul 11, 2012)

easyrider said:


> You have the right to be frustrated by your contractors inability to get the job done.
> 
> BUT, it may not be all his fault and it definitly isn't yours.
> 
> ...



I have had several harsh conversations with him, and have refused to pay until it is complete.  It has NOT helped the situation one bit.


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## thickey (Jul 11, 2012)

*Also...*

He has lied to me on several occasions about what is going on.  He has promised to do better several times, but has actually gotten worse.  He has told me that he'd be here at specific times, but doesn't show up, and never calls.  We told him we had family coming in town and that we would want to use the pool.  He promised it'd be done.  It wasn't.  Family was disappointed, and we were embarassed.  We left for vacation, and we went over everything he was to accomplish while we were gone.  He had one minor thing done when we got back over a week later.  He said he had questions about things while we were gone, but he couldn't think of what they were when we returned.  BTW, we gave him our cell numbers and asked him to call for any reason.  He said he didn't want to bother us on vacation, though we told him it would be no bother at all.  One of his excuses was that it had rained in a certain neighborhood and one of his pools was "floating away".  It took over a week to get it under control!  We had carefully watched the weather while we were gone, and it DID NOT rain in Knoxville when he said it did.  We figured he'd use that excuse...
I am careful not to call him a liar, as he would only get defensive.  But he is one.
I sent him another stern email yesterday, detailing what we know has to be done, and that we want it done ASAP.  If I don't hear from him, I think I might let him know that we will hire another contractor to finish it up, if it is not completely done by X date.  
He has a good 2 full days of work, by my estimate, but I could give him a couple of weeks to get it done.  That would be "fair".


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## Phydeaux (Jul 11, 2012)

Reads to me that you've already given him too many opportunites to make things right. At this point, your demands are pretty empty, and you're enabling.

I'd have two words for him: *You're fired*.

Then a couple more: _I'll see in in small claims court because I have no intention of paying any balance owed. _

Who referred you to to this contractor? You do always speak with several references, and look at the work history before hiring a contractor, right? Sorry if I missed this in one of the posts.


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## easyrider (Jul 11, 2012)

Tim, maybe you have a schmuck working on your project. Did you check out his references before you hired him ?

What really gets a persons attention are threats to sue and then following through. The state licensing departments function is to be sure the contractor has the insurancance and bonding required for the type of work performed. Have your attorney send him a letter and do not pay anything more than agreed on your contract.

 Caribean Sun, The reason I added the injured contractors stories is because sometimes it really is a " poor me" ( quoted term from klpca post) story. All of these guys I wrote about did get help from other contractors who sceduled in the work arround their own work load. Like you, we haven't been in a "poor me" situation and have always completed jobs on time. 

Tim, If your contractor hasn't told you why its taking so long I can understand why your mad but you have posted that you are in comunication with him so I think he hasn't blown you off. Ask him why its taking so long. It could be weather events like the heat wave or who knows. You say he has excuses, maybe these excuses are valid.

Just so you know, Im not disagreeing with you but just saying there could be an explaination. If the contractor is lieing to you I would replace him. Do it right with an attorney so you don't get in trouble.

I hope it works out for you.

Bill


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## thickey (Jul 11, 2012)

Yes, I checked out his references.  Most were very good.  I have found a few since he started our project that are not as happy with him...
As I said before, most of his excuses did not add up.  He hasn't skipped town, as I am in contact with him.
He is supposed to stop by this evening.  I may let him give me a date when he can be done with everything.  If it is a reasonable date (within 2 weeks), I will tell him that if it is not completed by that date, that he will stop, and I'll hire someone to finish.  and I will.
When he shows up, it is usually after he has spent the full day working elsewhere. He usually gets here 30 minutes before dark, and stops at dark.
We think he does just enough work for us that we cannot go to anyone to complain.  We cannot say that no progress is being made.  But is has become unreasonable, and is joke-worthy.  Only I quit laughing many weeks ago...


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## bogey21 (Jul 11, 2012)

thickey said:


> When he shows up, it is usually after he has spent the full day working elsewhere. He usually gets here 30 minutes before dark, and stops at dark.



Maybe he has taken a full time job since starting your project and is trying to finish your pool in his spare time.

George


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## heathpack (Jul 11, 2012)

I am a veterinarian and sometimes it works out that you cannot get some elective procedure done because of emergency cases that come in.  Most of my clients travel a signifcant distance and their pet's procedures occur under anesthesia and take several hours, so if I can't something done that I said I would do, it buys the pet an extra day in the hospital (at no charge of course) and can wreck havoc with an owners schedule.  

So I totally get the idea that stuff happens that is out of one's control that cause the job to be delayed.  However, if something like that happens, my approach would be to immediately contact the client, explain what is going on, apologize for the delay, let them know what to expect next and do what I can to minimize the inconvienence.  Clients don't always like the delay, but they usually accept it if you are forthright about whats going on.

It does not sound like this contractor is doing any of that.  Tim reasonably expects his pool to be done, and its not.  I don't care if the guy has a broken leg, he owes his customer an explanation as to what's going on and when he should reasonably expect his pool to be completed.  Unfortunately there are a great many contractors that do this sort of thing and it gives the entire industry a bad rep.

BTW, when we bought our house 4 years ago, we did a big kitchen remodel.  We found a contractor who gave us a really great estimate and then bailed the day before the project was due to start.  We replaced him with a more professional and expensive contractor and guess what?  Our kitchen was completed six weeks AHEAD of schedule, on-budget, and it is beautiful.  Right from the beginning, he told us he was going to cost much more, mostly because he was not a flake and would give us realistic estimates/timeframes and good advice.  To this day, if we have any little issue at all, we know we can call him and he will get right back to us.  So there are some really great contractors out there for sure.  Hopefully you will connect with one of them.

H


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## thickey (Jul 11, 2012)

This guy never calls me, I always have to check up on him when I don't see him for several days on end.  To his credit, he always answers the phone.  He never offers an explanation unless I ask him what's going on, and then I can feel him struggling to come up with something. 
I am reasonable, and more than understanding and forgiving when circumstances arise.   This guy however, doesn't have the decency to even tell me he is running late (by several days), or when there is a problem of some kind.  He has left me hanging 'way too many times.  Telling me he needs to go over some things, setting up a time, and he never shows.  I have waited and waited on this guy, and changed my schedule for him, and I get stood up time after time. 
I am about at my last straw.  I don't even know how to complain anymore, nor who I should contact.


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## sstug (Jul 11, 2012)

I did a quick search and found the following website where you can file a complaint.  
http://www.tn.gov/commerce/boards/contractors/complaint.shtml

It specifically states you can file a complaint for “or any law violations such as: fraud, dishonest dealing, felony convictions, misconduct, accepting payment without completing the work, requiring more than 1/3 down payment (home improvement law); etc.,”

I would consider his actions to be dishonest dealing or accepting payment without completing the work.  Since he is trying to disprove this by making an act of showing up for a half hour periodically it may be more difficult to prove.  But you don’t have to prove anything in order to file a complaint.

Here is what I would do:
- Make a log of every time you have contacted him, when he has shown up, and exactly what he does each time.
- Print off the complaint form and fill it out
- Tell the contractor up front that you are preparing to file a complaint
- Provide him a written explanation (preferably from your lawyer) explaining your dissatisfaction and why you consider him to be in breach of contract or dishonest dealing for not completing the work.  
- Outline your expectations for completing within a reasonable timeframe as well as a summary of any verbal or written agreement you have with him regarding completion.
- Give him a deadline as to when you will fire him, file a complaint, and hire someone else.

It should be in his best interest to show up and finish the job to prevent you from pursuing this.


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## thickey (Jul 12, 2012)

Thanks for the advice, everyone  We waited around yesterday afternoon and evening.  He was supposed to stop by to "go over somet hings".  He didn't show up again.  My wife is inclined to not say anything more to him, and let him just finish up.  Who knows when that will be?


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## thickey (Jul 12, 2012)

sstug said:


> I did a quick search and found the following website where you can file a complaint.
> http://www.tn.gov/commerce/boards/contractors/complaint.shtml
> 
> It specifically states you can file a complaint for “or any law violations such as: fraud, dishonest dealing, felony convictions, misconduct, accepting payment without completing the work, requiring more than 1/3 down payment (home improvement law); etc.,”
> ...




Thanks for finding this for me!  I appreciate your help very much.


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## DeniseM (Jul 12, 2012)

You could get some bids from other contractors to finish up the job.  Then the next time the guy shows up, tell him if the job isn't finished in 2 weeks, you are firing him, and having someone else finish the job.  Show him the bid you have selected.


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## easyrider (Jul 12, 2012)

Tim, your stuck with this guy until you decide to take him to court which will cost about $3000 at least unless he agrees to let you out of any contract you have signed.

If there is something wrong with the workmanship then you could be awarded more than you paid out to remove and replace items.

By not paying, the contractor will place a lien on your home and turn the owed amount over to collection and posibly take you to court.

If you do hire someone else to finish the job with out the contractor signing off, your still liable for the amount you owe on the original contract.

You either live with your situation like your wife says and hope he gets done this summer or lawyer up.

Before you do anything else you should check to see if the contractor is legally working in your state. If the contractor is working without a license then he isn't a contractor and you can tell him its over and not pay anything owed. You could also turn him in to Labor and Industries for working without a license.

Good Luck
Bill


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## camachinist (Jul 12, 2012)

OP, IMO crunch the numbers and make a decision. I'd personally fire him for non-performance and hire the work finished and let the money issues sort out in court. If he's as attentive to court as he is to your job, that'll be a non-issue. I would suggest taking some time to learn about mechanic's liens and how they are perfected and adjudicated and add that into the mix. It's not complex. Stuff happens. What percentage hold-back do you have?


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## thickey (Jul 12, 2012)

Well, we I caleld him this morning to see why he didn't show up last night.  He actually wanted to meet with me, and so he came by and we talked at length.  He says he will finish up the remaining work with in the next few days.  He then handed me an invoice for the balance of his work!  I looked at him, and told him that I'll be glad to pay him for his work - when the work is done - and not until.  
There are a few things on the invoice that have been done, but only about half.  Should I go ahead an pay him for the finished things, or wait for it all to be done?  He says it'll just take "a day or two" to finish up.


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## DeniseM (Jul 12, 2012)

I would not even consider paying him another cent until the job is done!


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## Elan (Jul 12, 2012)

thickey said:


> There are a few things on the invoice that have been done, but only about half.  Should I go ahead an pay him for the finished things, or wait for it all to be done?  He says it'll just take "a day or two" to finish up.



  Look at it this way:  If there were penalties written into the contract for being late (which isn't uncommon for large construction projects), he'd owe you money.  Absolutely do not pay him anything until the job is done to your satisfaction.


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## thickey (Jul 12, 2012)

Elan said:


> Look at it this way:  If there were penalties written into the contract for being late (which isn't uncommon for large construction projects), he'd owe you money.  Absolutely do not pay him anything until the job is done to your satisfaction.



Sounds like what I was thinking...

I think he is expecting payment tonight.  My wife thinks we should pay him for only the things that are actually done that's on his latest invoice - which she thinks is fair.  But, I think we'd lose that much more leverage with him and should wait.  Maybe he'll speed it up a little knowing a check awaits his completion.

I will call him and let him know that we'll pay him when it is ALL done.  Isn't that the typical way you pay a contractor?


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## Elan (Jul 12, 2012)

thickey said:


> Sounds like what I was thinking...
> 
> I think he is expecting payment tonight.  My wife thinks we should pay him for only the things that are actually done that's on his latest invoice - which she thinks is fair.  But, I think we'd lose that much more leverage with him and should wait.  Maybe he'll speed it up a little knowing a check awaits his completion.
> 
> I will call him and let him know that we'll pay him when it is ALL done.  Isn't that the typical way you pay a contractor?



  I don't know that there's anything that's "typical" about this type of work.  But it's not uncommon to withhold at least 1/3 of the total amount until the project is completed.  And that's on projects where everything transpires as originally agreed upon.


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## DeniseM (Jul 12, 2012)

Don't you have a written contract that stipulates the payment schedule?


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## theo (Jul 12, 2012)

*Me three...*



Elan said:


> Look at it this way:  If there were penalties written into the contract for being late (which isn't uncommon for large construction projects), he'd owe you money.  Absolutely do not pay him anything until the job is done to your satisfaction.



I agree wholeheartedly. It appears that there were no time or completion date "performance" elements actually specified within your contract, so it would accordingly seem that you really don't have a whole lot of other leverage, other than to withhold any and all further payment until actual *completion* of the job. 

While I can certainly try to empathize with the trials and tribulations of an apparently small, independent contractor, you also need to retain and exercise some kind of  incentive for actual job *completion*. That sole remaining incentive, at this late and seemingly endless juncture, is to make it abundantly clear that no further payment in any amount will be forthcoming until complete (and satisfactory) completion of *all* of the work specified within the contract.


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## easyrider (Jul 12, 2012)

thickey said:


> Well, we I caleld him this morning to see why he didn't show up last night.  He actually wanted to meet with me, and so he came by and we talked at length.  He says he will finish up the remaining work with in the next few days.  He then handed me an invoice for the balance of his work!  I looked at him, and told him that I'll be glad to pay him for his work - when the work is done - and not until.
> There are a few things on the invoice that have been done, but only about half.  Should I go ahead an pay him for the finished things, or wait for it all to be done?  He says it'll just take "a day or two" to finish up.



It sounds like the guy might be C.O.D. with his suppliers. The way alot of contractors get paid is 1/3 down, 1/3 on delivery of materials and 1/3 on completion. I think you should not pay anymore than 2/3 of the contract amount until the job is satisfactory in your eyes.

Bill


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## sstug (Jul 12, 2012)

easyrider said:


> The way alot of contractors get paid is 1/3 down, 1/3 on delivery of materials and 1/3 on completion. I think you should not pay anymore than 2/3 of the contract amount until the job is satisfactory in your eyes.



This may be 'normal', but only when it is written into the contract and agreed upon upfront.  If there was nothing in writing stipulating such a payment schedule then thickey should not pay another cent until all work is complete.  If it is indeed only a couple days of work then there is no reason the contractor can't wait.  If he is paid a portion of which is already complete he may well disappear again until he needs a bit more money.  This contractor has not been upfront and reliable so don't fall for any more of his sob stories (valid or not).  Stick to your guns and pay him upon completion to your satisfaction.  If he wanted to be paid sooner he should have showed up and finished the job sooner.

I have dealt with a similar situation (six week job lasted well over 6 months and the work continued to get worse as time went on).  The best contractor I had was my roofer who asked for payment upon completion with nothing upfront.  

If the payment schedule was not included in his estimate/contract it is just one more example of his less than professional conduct and the OP should not feel any guilt over holding payment until completion.  Just because someone is a capable contractor does not mean he runs his business well - and that should not be the paying customer's problem.  The bigger issue may be the contractor THINKS he is providing better customer service than he really is, and there's not much you can do with a person like that.


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## thickey (Jul 12, 2012)

*Today's chapter...*

I did not have a completion date in the contract.  He told us 2 - 4 weeks on April 7th.   I have learned from this!  We did specify 1/3 down, 1/3 half-way, and 1/3 on completion.   We are on our last 3rd.
Today, I called him and asked for a hard and fast completion date.  I insisted that it be reasonable for me, and one that he will stick to.  He said he'd have to think about it and get back to me... He stopped by later to go over the remaining list with me.  Before he left, he handed me an invoice for the rest of the job!  He said he'd be back later this evening to talk to us about a completion date, and to pick up a check.
After conferring with my TUG friends (you guys and gals), and another contractor I had hired,  I called and told him that everything on the invoice looked great, and that since he said it would not take him but "a day or two" to finish up, I'll pay him then.  I could tell he wasn't happy with that, but I told him that that is how we will proceed.  After a moment of silence, I said "Well, if you don't have any questions, I need to run".    He called a couple of hours later and asked if we had some sort of problem with him or his invoice, and asked why we weren't willing to pay for things that have already been delivered.  I said that I have no problem with his invoice or paying for anything on it. I mentioned some of the outstanding items though, and that we will have a check for him the moment the job is complete. He tried, and tried, and TRIED to talk me into paying him now for various parts of the remaining, but I held my ground!
I just kept telling him that he himself said it shouldn't take but a day or two, so we'll just wait for it all to be completed.  More silence...  
I ended the conversation by saying to take care and that I look forward to seeing him again soon. 
It was very difficult holding my ground, as I absolutely hate confrontations.
So far, we still don't have a completion date, but if he wants his money soon, he'll be back soon.


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## Elan (Jul 12, 2012)

thickey said:


> I did not have a completion date in the contract.  He told us 2 - 4 weeks on April 7th.   I have learned from this!  We did specify 1/3 down, 1/3 half-way, and 1/3 on completion.   We are on our last 3rd.
> Today, I called him and asked for a hard and fast completion date.  I insisted that it be reasonable for me, and one that he will stick to.  He said he'd have to think about it and get back to me... He stopped by later to go over the remaining list with me.  Before he left, he handed me an invoice for the rest of the job!  He said he'd be back later this evening to talk to us about a completion date, and to pick up a check.
> After conferring with my TUG friends (you guys and gals), and another contractor I had hired,  I called and told him that everything on the invoice looked great, and that since he said it would not take him but "a day or two" to finish up, I'll pay him then.  I could tell he wasn't happy with that, but I told him that that is how we will proceed.  After a moment of silence, I said "Well, if you don't have any questions, I need to run".    He called a couple of hours later and asked if we had some sort of problem with him or his invoice, and asked why we weren't willing to pay for things that have already been delivered.  I said that I have no problem with his invoice or paying for anything on it. I mentioned some of the outstanding items though, and that we will have a check for him the moment the job is complete. He tried, and tried, and TRIED to talk me into paying him now for various parts of the remaining, but I held my ground!
> I just kept telling him that he himself said it shouldn't take but a day or two, so we'll just wait for it all to be completed.  More silence...
> ...



  Does this guy appear to be running a shoestring operation?  Does he show up in a nice work truck, or a 70's vintage beater.  I'm asking because he may not have the finances to proceed with your job.  Believe me, it's more common than you think with contractors.  Obviously, not a valid point if it's just labor that remains.


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## DeniseM (Jul 12, 2012)

thickey said:


> e did specify 1/3 down, 1/3 half-way, and 1/3 on completion.   We are on our last 3rd.
> 
> It was very difficult holding my ground, as I absolutely hate confrontations.
> So far, we still don't have a completion date, but if he wants his money soon, he'll be back soon.



Think about this - if you give in and pay him now, when do you think your job will get done?  And when he doesn't finish it, are you prepared to spend more money to sue him?  You have an agreement with him that the final payment will be after he finishes the job - make him stick to it.


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## sstug (Jul 12, 2012)

Great job sticking to your guns!!

Just one question for clarification - you have already paid 2/3 of the total estimate and he is still asking you to pay for a portion of the last third?  If so, all you have to say is as per our agreement the last third is to be paid upon completion.  There should be no need for discussion at this point.

This is exactly the kind of thing that contractors do to make themselves look dishonest (even if they aren't).  It should never be the customers problem if the contractor has cash flow issues to buy the supplies if he has already been paid two thirds.  And with only 2 days of work remaining I can't imagine that he doesn't already have everything he needs.

He has some nerve expecting further payment when he can't even provide a completion date.  You may really dislike confrontation but it is absolutely necessary to stand up for yourself in a situation like this.  You should be proud of yourself for handling this so well.

I keep re-reading your post, and I am convinced he needs to pay a personal debt and was hoping you would pay him early.  Good luck!


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## Elan (Jul 12, 2012)

In the back of my mind, I keep wondering if the guy is doing community service or got a DUI (suspended license) or something that he's too embarrassed about to share.  Seems like very odd behavior.


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## caribbeansun (Jul 13, 2012)

100% correct, and if he doesn't complete it you have the funds to pay someone else to finish the job.

Dealing with contracts and sub-contractors is difficult and a PITA but one thing is always true - money talks.

You did the right thing.



thickey said:


> So far, we still don't have a completion date, but if he wants his money soon, he'll be back soon.


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## Hobo1 (Jul 13, 2012)

easyrider said:


> Tim, your stuck with this guy until you decide to take him to court which will cost about $3000 at least unless he agrees to let you out of any contract you have signed.
> 
> By not paying, the contractor will place a lien on your home and turn the owed amount over to collection and posibly take you to court.
> 
> ...



Bill ...... Tennessee Court of General Sessions (Small Claims Court) limitations is $25K. Filing fees are no where near $3K and he does not need an attorney because Tennessee does not allow for jury trials in small claims court. All he has to do is tell his story to the judge, show the contract to the judge, and show pictures to the judge. 

Depending on the terms of the contract, the contractor is probably in breech which voids the contract but if not the judgment will take care of the contract and any balance owed.

With judgment in hand he can now place a lien on any of the contractors assets including bank accounts and real property.


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## easyrider (Jul 13, 2012)

Thanks David

I didn't realize that some states allow such large claims as small claims. In the northwest it much lower with Wa & Id at 5000 and Oregon at 7500.

Tim, for filing fees you could go and start a claim for up to $25,000. That would get your contractors attention for sure.  


Bill


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## theo (Jul 13, 2012)

*Yessa!*



thickey said:


> <snip>... we will have a check for him the moment the job is complete. <snip>



Right answer. Good job. Well done. You now have a (even if belatedly) "motivated" contractor.


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## thickey (Jul 13, 2012)

*Today - progress!*

Well, after our conversation yesterday, guess who showed up this morning, and has a full crew out there working?  Yep, you got it!  They are working on 
the electrical hookups to the heater, lights, and grounding wires.  Another crew is re-erecting the privacy fence, while another couple of guys is resealing the pool deck.  Yet another is working on the wooden steps that needed to be reinstalled.
This guy is wanting his check apparently!  
But not until EVERYTHING is complete and I thoroughly check everything out, and test all of the equipment, etc.
Amazing, isn't??!!??
Thanks guys for your input!


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## klpca (Jul 13, 2012)

thickey said:


> Well, after our conversation yesterday, guess who showed up this morning, and has a full crew out there working?  Yep, you got it!  They are working on
> the electrical hookups to the heater, lights, and grounding wires.  Another crew is re-erecting the privacy fence, while another couple of guys is resealing the pool deck.  Yet another is working on the wooden steps that needed to be reinstalled.
> This guy is wanting his check apparently!
> But not until EVERYTHING is complete and I thoroughly check everything out, and test all of the equipment, etc.
> ...



Good for you! You have to feel relieved. That's exactly how it worked for us. No check for our contractor, a firm discussion of our expectations - and suddenly - a roof!


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 13, 2012)

Don't cave in by checking a few things as HE follows you around, pushing for those $$$$$. 

If you have a filter timer or cycle thing on the filter, TAKE the 24-36 hours to make sure that is working. Electrical things always have a bypass button - so while the filter and pump might turn on with that - a missed wire or a bad switch will NOT CYCLE. Hate for you to wait months on end for a replacement where YOU have to be home every 12 hours to push the switch.

He sure took his time to schedule his work and when he showed up --- take the time, to make sure everything is right and get those items FIXED before you give him a bloody penny. 

Maybe TUESDAY night would be long enough - but I don't own/operate a pool anymore.


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## thickey (Jul 13, 2012)

Yes, we do have a pool filter timer, and we have already determined that it doesn't work.  We'll have to wait and see it actually works this time!
Yes, I will be very thorough!


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## DeniseM (Jul 13, 2012)

Is there supposed to be a final inspection by the county? - If so, make sure that's done before you pay, and try to be there when they come so you can ask questions.


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## pacodemountainside (Jul 13, 2012)

Denise makes an excellent point.  As far as I know when electrical and plumbing work are involved a permit must be pulled.  If he cannot provide a "CO" call city hall and talk with building inspector.

At this point it is his labor and profit that are involved so  no BS  about supplies and  sub-contractors. Do not give another penny until you have tested for a  couple cycles and  have  city hall sign off.

Also, ask for proof of payment to sub-contractors. If unpaid they can file liens

You can sneak things in but when you go to sell  buyers  home inspector and/ or Title Insurance company will pull file and if unauthorized construction one is in deep shit. I speak from experience!


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## easyrider (Jul 13, 2012)

DeniseM said:


> Is there supposed to be a final inspection by the county? - If so, make sure that's done before you pay, and try to be there when they come so you can ask questions.



If the pool is a in ground it must be looked at on paper by planning to check setbacks from property lines, easement, septic systems and shore lines. Once this is approved by planning you can get a permit.

There are two permits involved, building and electrical with inspections at different phases of the project.

With an above ground pool in many areas there is no permit required as it isn't a permanent structure so there wouldn't be a final inspection. If a circuit is added for an above ground pool a permit is required in WA, OR, ID.

So I agree with Denise on this one. Make sure the job has the proper permits and inspections.

Bill


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## pacodemountainside (Jul 13, 2012)

A  couple more thoughts. A swimming pool is generally legally   classified as  an "attractive nuisance". Have you notified your insurance company?

Also, be sure fencing/access conforms to local building code and insurace coverage!


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## thickey (Jul 15, 2012)

*Update*

The crew worked all day Friday, which is the first time any of them have given me over 3 hours at a time!  They also showed up yesterday (Saturday), and worked a good part of the day - 6+ hours.  
At this point, they are just about done - just a few things left on the list.  They are doing a good job, and I let 'em know.
Friday, I checked on the permits.  He does have them in place, and the footers (retaining wall support) have already been inspected.  There will be inspections on the remainder.
I will continue to monitor and will hold my ground until we are happy and the inspectors have signed off. 
Again, thanks for all of the advice.  
I am confident that if we would've paid him his last installment, we would never have seen this progress.


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## Elan (Jul 15, 2012)

thickey said:


> The crew worked all day Friday, which is the first time any of them have given me over 3 hours at a time!  They also showed up yesterday (Saturday), and worked a good part of the day - 6+ hours.
> At this point, they are just about done - just a few things left on the list.  They are doing a good job, and I let 'em know.
> Friday, I checked on the permits.  He does have them in place, and the footers (retaining wall support) have already been inspected.  There will be inspections on the remainder.
> I will continue to monitor and will hold my ground until we are happy and the inspectors have signed off.
> ...



  Nice to hear this is all working out.  You're to be commended for adhering to your principles of fairness.  Unfortunately, that trait just isn't that common any more.


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## vacationhopeful (Jul 15, 2012)

At least you will enjoying your pool and patio for some of the summer.


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## thickey (Jul 15, 2012)

*He showed up again today (Sunday) to work!!!*

When we came home after church, the guy and a few from his crew were here working on the fence.  We couldn't believe our eyes.
We went out back to talk to them and offered them some cold water, as it was quite humid and warm.  He has finished all but replacing the pool pump timer, which he plans to do tomorrow.
He said that he will get the inspectors out tomorrow.
I told him we'd have a check for him as soon as they are done.
Absolutely amazing.
It'll be so nice to have the pool to ourselves at last and to say goodbye to this guy!


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## caribbeansun (Jul 16, 2012)

Glad this worked out so well for you - congrats!


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## Htoo0 (Jul 16, 2012)

Money talks...  glad you found the 'motivation' necessary to get the job done.


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