# Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC) purchase of Interval Leisure Group (ILG) discussion!



## WBP

*Moderator Notes:

1. Open threads in the two other forums directly impacted by this acquisition here -
Vistana Signature Experiences, Marriott Vacations Worldwide to Acquire ILG to Create a Leading Global Provider of Premier Vacation
Hyatt Residence Club, Marriott and ILG

2. Discussion thread in Marriott forum leading up to this acquisition here - VAC/ILG shareholder activism speculation [THREAD CLOSED]

*************************

http://ir.marriottvacationsworldwid...s-worldwide-acquire-ilg-create-leading-global

*Marriott Vacations Worldwide to Acquire ILG to Create a Leading Global Provider of Premier Vacation Experiences*
FINAL VAC-ILG Transaction Release (00980771xA26CA).PDF
*Leading upper-upscale and luxury vacation ownership and exchange company will have over 100 vacation properties around the world and approximately 650,000 ownersExclusive access to the world-class customer loyalty programs of Marriott International and Hyatt for vacation ownershipGlobal licensee of seven upper-upscale and luxury vacation brands including Marriott Vacation Club, Grand Residences by Marriott, Ritz-Carlton Destination Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, St. Regis Residence Club and Hyatt Residence ClubPremier exchange networks with nearly two million members and over 3,200 resorts worldwideCombined company will have pro-forma revenues of $2.9 billion and a diversified and complementary platform with significant contribution from recurring and fee-based revenue streamsTransaction structured to maintain strong and flexible balance sheet that will support future growth and shareholder returnsExpected to be accretive to MVW's adjusted earnings per share within the first year after close, with annual run-rate cost savings of at least $75 million within two years following closeCompanies to host conference call and webcast today at 8:00 a.m. Eastern Time*
ORLANDO, Fla. and MIAMI, April 30, 2018 /PRNewswire/ -- Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation(NYSE: VAC) ("MVW" or the "Company") and ILG (Nasdaq: ILG) today announced that they have entered into a definitive agreement under which MVW will acquire all of the outstanding shares of ILG in a cash and stock transaction with an implied equity value of approximately $4.7 billion. Under the terms of the agreement, ILG shareholders will receive $14.75 in cash and 0.165 shares of MVW common stock for each ILG share.

ILG is a leading provider of premier vacation experiences with over 40 properties and over 250,000 owners in its Vistana Signature Experiences and Hyatt Vacation Ownership portfolios, as well as exchange networks that comprise nearly two million members and over 3,200 resorts worldwide. As a combined entity, MVW and ILG will be a leader in the vacation experiences industry with significant scale, an expanded presence in key leisure destinations, the largest portfolio of upper-upscale and luxury brands in the industry and world-class exchange networks. The combined company will be the global licensee of seven upper-upscale and luxury vacation brands, including Marriott Vacation Club, Grand Residences by Marriott, Ritz-Carlton Destination Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, St. Regis Residence Club, and Hyatt Residence Club. It will also have exclusive access for vacation ownership to the Marriott Rewards, Starwood Preferred Guest and Ritz-Carlton Rewards loyalty programs for its six Marriott vacation ownership brands. With respect to its Hyatt business, the combined company will have rights to develop, market and sell under the Hyatt Vacation Ownership programs, including access to the almost 10 million members of the World of Hyatt loyalty platform. Finally, strengthening MVW's vacation properties' affiliation with ILG's exchange networks will reinforce Interval International's industry leading position and advance our objective of creating shareholder value.

"This transaction will combine two of the premier global vacation ownership companies to create a more diversified company with significantly enhanced marketing potential and scale to drive sales growth and value for both MVW and ILG shareholders," said Stephen P. Weisz, President and Chief Executive Officer of Marriott Vacations Worldwide. "With ILG, we will bring together six world-class vacation ownership brands under one licensing relationship with Marriott International, which will enable us to leverage high-value marketing and sales channels, including those provided by Marriott International's platforms, and enhance the benefits of our access to Marriott International's loyalty programs, call transfer and hotel linkage programs. We will also diversify our vacation ownership business with the addition of the Hyatt Vacation Ownership platform, providing exciting growth opportunities outside of the Marriott and Vistana platforms. Additionally, with ILG's leading exchange networks, we will gain recurring, high-margin revenue streams."

Mr. Weisz continued, "ILG shares our dedication to customers and commitment to creating an unparalleled vacation experience for our Owners. Together, I am confident that we will be better positioned to fulfill the dreams of Owners, Members and guests around the world by providing them with memories that will last a lifetime."

"We are very pleased to achieve this outcome for shareholders, as it provides them with immediate and compelling cash value and the opportunity to meaningfully participate in the long-term growth potential of a powerful combined company," said Craig M. Nash, Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer of ILG. "The strategic rationale for this transaction is clear. Combining these two highly complementary businesses will create an industry leader with enhanced scale and a broader product portfolio that will have great benefits for our members, owners and guests. Thanks to the dedication and hard work of our more than 10,000 talented associates around the world, we have been able to successfully adapt to changing industry dynamics throughout our history, and this transaction is another step in that evolution. MVW associates share the same values and goals that we have championed for so long, and we are confident that MVW and ILG are as strong a cultural fit as they are strategic."

*Compelling Strategic and Financial Benefits*

*Creates a leading global luxury and upper-upscale vacation ownership operator with access to world-class loyalty programs and an expanded portfolio of highly demanded vacation destinations: *Combining MVW and ILG will create a leading global vacation ownership and exchange company comprising approximately 650,000 owners, seven upper-upscale and luxury brands, over 100 vacation properties and more than 20,000 vacation ownership units around the world. With ILG's four resorts in Mexico and one on St. John (USVI), MVW will gain an important foothold in popular vacation destinations in Mexico and expand its presence in the Caribbean. Additionally, it will diversify its long history of upper-upscale brand management with the Hyatt Residence Club properties. ILG's resort management businesses across the U.S., Caribbean, Mexico and Europe will also significantly expand MVW's resort management capabilities and scope across the globe.
*Creates a platform to accelerate sales growth: *Through their agreements with Marriott International, MVW and ILG will have exclusive access for vacation ownership to the Marriott Rewards, Starwood Preferred Guest and Ritz-Carlton Rewards loyalty programs, which have over 100 million members and which are expected to be combined into a single loyalty program in early 2019. They will also be able to leverage the exclusive call transfer and hotel linkage rights that MVW gained through its recently amended agreement with Marriott International to drive valuable incremental tours and sales at ILG's Vistana properties, significantly enhancing the sales potential of these locations. In addition to these opportunities, the Hyatt Vacation Ownership business will benefit from continued access to almost 10 million World of Hyatt loyalty platform members for marketing opportunities and growth in highly desirable destinations.
*Diversifies revenues and expands margins with significant contribution from recurring and fee-based revenue streams: *The Company will benefit from premier exchange networks, which provide incremental, high-margin, recurring, fee-based revenue streams. ILG's Interval International, Vistana Signature Network, Hyatt Residence Club and Trading Places International exchange networks will comprise nearly two million members and over 3,200 resorts.

ILG's exchange networks and resort management business represent profitable revenue streams that will further diversify the Company's revenue profile and expand its margins. Additionally, owning Marriott Vacation Club, Vistana Signature Experiences and Hyatt Vacation Ownership, which on a combined basis represent over 50% of the corporate members of Interval International, will provide increased stability of cash flows from this business. The additional revenue streams that ILG would bring to the combined company would raise its total 2017 revenue to $2.9 billionwhile further diversifying its revenue mix.

Interval International, ILG's leading exchange business, will maintain its headquarters in Miami, Florida, where it has been based since its founding in 1976. Marriott Vacations Worldwide has deep respect for the Interval International leadership team and looks forward to working with them as the combined company take steps to grow this business into the future.
*Transaction structure will result in a strong and flexible balance sheet to support future growth and shareholder returns: *The combination will significantly enhance and diversify MVW's cash flows. ILG will contribute strong and recurring revenue streams that will enable the combined company to maintain flexibility for continued organic growth, strategic acquisitions, continued capital returns to shareholders and de-levering. On a pro-forma basis, the combined company would have 2017 adjusted EBITDA of $737 million[1]. Over the past four years, MVW has returned $775 million to its shareholders through dividends and share repurchases, and it expects to pay a pro-forma annual dividend of $1.60 per share following the close of the transaction.
*Immediately accretive to MVW's earnings and free cash flow profile and generates significant near-term cost savings: *The transaction is expected to be accretive to MVW's adjusted earnings per share within the first full year after close. It has identified and expects to achieve at least $75 million of annual run-rate cost savings within two years following the close of the transaction. Savings are expected to come primarily from the rationalization of redundant general and administrative, operating and public company costs.
*Integration Planning and Leadership*

Marriott Vacations Worldwide's President and Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Stephen Weisz, and its Chief Financial and Administrative Officer, Mr. John Geller, will continue to serve in their roles following the close of the transaction. The Marriott Vacations Worldwide Board of Directors will be expanded from eight to 10 members to include two current members of the ILG Board, and Mr. William Shaw will remain Chairman of the Board. MVW's headquarters will remain in Orlando, and the combined company will maintain a significant operating presence in Miami.

Following the close of the transaction, the combined company will trade on the NYSE under ticker symbol VAC.

*Transaction Details*

Under the terms of the merger agreement, which has been unanimously approved by the Boards of both companies, ILG shareholders will receive $14.75 in cash and 0.165 shares of MVW common stock for each ILG share. Following the close of the transaction, ILG shareholders will own approximately 43% of MVW's common shares on a fully-diluted basis, based on the number of MVW common shares outstanding today. Qurate Retail, Inc. has entered into a voting agreement with ILG in support of the transaction.

MVW has received financing commitments from J.P. Morgan and BofA Merrill Lynch. The completion of the transaction is not subject to a financing contingency.

*Approvals*

The transaction, which is expected to close in the second half of 2018, is subject to the satisfaction of customary closing conditions, including regulatory approvals and approval by shareholders of both companies.

*Advisors*

J.P. Morgan is acting as exclusive financial advisor to MVW and Kirkland & Ellis LLP is serving as legal advisor. Goldman Sachs & Co. LLC and Moelis & Company LLC are serving as financial advisors to ILG and Paul Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP is serving as legal advisor.

*Conference Call / Webcast*

The companies will host a joint conference call today at 8:00 a.m. Eastern Time. To access the call, listeners should dial (877) 407-8289 and provide the access code 13679635. A replay of the call will be available. A live webcast of the conference call will also be available in the investor relations sections of both companies' websites at www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com or www.ilg.com.

Additional information with respect to the transaction will be posted in the investor relations sections of both companies' websites.

*About Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation*

Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation is a leading global pure-play vacation ownership company, offering a diverse portfolio of quality products, programs and management expertise with over 65 resorts. Its brands include Marriott Vacation Club, The Ritz-Carlton Destination Club and Grand Residences by Marriott. Since entering the industry in 1984 as part of Marriott International, Inc., the company earned its position as a leader and innovator in vacation ownership products. The company preserves high standards of excellence in serving its customers, investors and associates while maintaining a long-term relationship with Marriott International. For more information, please visit www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com.

*About ILG*

ILG (Nasdaq: ILG) is a leading provider of professionally delivered vacation experiences and the exclusive global licensee for the Hyatt®, Sheraton®, and Westin® brands in vacation ownership. The company offers its owners, members, and guests access to an array of benefits and services, as well as world-class destinations through its international portfolio of resorts and clubs. ILG's operating businesses include Aqua-Aston Hospitality, Hyatt Vacation Ownership, Interval International, Trading Places International, Vacation Resorts International, VRI Europe, and Vistana Signature Experiences. Through its subsidiaries, ILG independently owns and manages the Hyatt Residence Club program and uses the Hyatt Vacation Ownership name and other Hyatt marks under license from affiliates of Hyatt Hotels Corporation. In addition, ILG's Vistana Signature Experiences, Inc. is the exclusive provider of vacation ownership for the Sheraton and Westin brands and uses related trademarks under license from Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide, LLC. Headquartered in Miami, Florida, ILG has offices in 15 countries and more than 10,000 associates. For more information, visit www.ilg.com

*Cautionary Statement Regarding Forward Looking Statements  *
Information included or incorporated by reference in this communication, and information which may be contained in other filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission (the "SEC") and press releases or other public statements, contains or may contain "forward-looking" statements, as that term is defined in the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 or by the SEC in its rules, regulations and releases. These forward-looking statements include, among other things, statements of plans, objectives, expectations (financial or otherwise) or intentions.

Forward-looking statements are any statements other than statements of historical fact, including statements regarding ILG's and MVW's expectations, beliefs, hopes, intentions or strategies regarding the future. Among other things, these forward-looking statements may include statements regarding the proposed combination of ILG and MVW; our beliefs relating to value creation as a result of a potential combination with ILG; the expected timetable for completing the transactions; benefits and synergies of the transactions; future opportunities for the combined company; and any other statements regarding ILG's and MVW's future beliefs, expectations, plans, intentions, financial condition or performance. In some cases, forward-looking statements can be identified by the use of words such `as "may," "will," "expects," "should," "believes," "plans," "anticipates," "estimates," "predicts," "potential," "continue," or other words of similar meaning.

Forward-looking statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those discussed in, or implied by, the forward-looking statements. Factors that might cause such a difference include, but are not limited to, general economic conditions, our financial and business prospects, our capital requirements, our financing prospects, our relationships with associates and labor unions, our ability to consummate potential acquisitions or dispositions, our relationships with the holders of licensed marks, and those additional factors disclosed as risks in other reports filed by us with the Securities and Exchange Commission, including those described in Part I of our most recently filed Annual Report on Form 10-K and subsequent reports on Forms 10-Q and 8-K as well as on MVW's most recently filed Annual Report on Form 10-K and subsequent reports on Forms 10-Q and 8-K.

Other risks and uncertainties include the timing and likelihood of completion of the proposed transactions between ILG and MVW, including the timing, receipt and terms and conditions of any required governmental and regulatory approvals for the proposed transactions that could reduce anticipated benefits or cause the parties to abandon the transactions; the possibility that ILG's stockholders may not approve the proposed transactions; the possibility that MVW's stockholders may not approve the proposed transactions; the possibility that the expected synergies and value creation from the proposed transactions will not be realized or will not be realized within the expected time period; the risk that the businesses of ILG and MVW will not be integrated successfully; disruption from the proposed transactions making it more difficult to maintain business and operational relationships; the risk that unexpected costs will be incurred; the ability to retain key personnel; the availability of financing; the possibility that the proposed transactions do not close, including due to the failure to satisfy the closing conditions; as well as more specific risks and uncertainties. You should carefully consider these and other relevant factors, including those risk factors in this communication and other risks and uncertainties that affect the businesses of ILG and MVW described in their respective filings with the SEC, when reviewing any forward-looking statement. These factors are noted for investors as permitted under the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. We caution readers that any such statements are based on currently available operational, financial and competitive information, and they should not place undue reliance on these forward-looking statements, which reflect management's opinion only as of the date on which they were made. Except as required by law, we disclaim any obligation to review or update these forward-looking statements to reflect events or circumstances as they occur.

*NO OFFER OR SOLICITATION  *
This communication is for informational purposes only and is not intended to and does not constitute an offer to buy, nor a solicitation of an offer to sell, subscribe for or buy any securities or the solicitation of any vote or approval in any jurisdiction pursuant to or in connection with the proposed transaction or otherwise, nor shall there be any sale, issuance or transfer of securities in any jurisdiction in contravention of applicable law. No offer of securities shall be made except by means of a prospectus meeting the requirements of Section 10 of the Securities Act of 1933, as amended, and otherwise in accordance with applicable law.

*IMPORTANT INFORMATION AND WHERE TO FIND IT  *
The proposed transaction involving MVW and ILG will be submitted to ILG's stockholders and MVW's stockholders for their consideration. In connection with the proposed transaction, MVW will prepare a registration statement on Form S-4 that will include a joint proxy statement/prospectus for ILG's stockholders and MVW's stockholders to be filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission ("SEC"). ILG will mail the joint proxy statement/prospectus to its stockholders, MVW will mail the joint proxy statement/prospectus to its stockholders and ILG and MVW will file other documents regarding the proposed transaction with the SEC. This communication is not intended to be, and is not, a substitute for such filings or for any other document that MVW or ILG may file with the SEC in connection with the proposed transaction. SECURITY HOLDERS ARE URGED TO READ ALL RELEVANT DOCUMENTS FILED WITH THE SEC, INCLUDING THE REGISTRATION STATEMENT ON FORM S-4 AND THE JOINT PROXY STATEMENT/PROSPECTUS, CAREFULLY AND IN THEIR ENTIRETY IF AND WHEN THEY BECOME AVAILABLE, BECAUSE THEY WILL CONTAIN IMPORTANT INFORMATION. The registration statement, the joint proxy statement/prospectus and other relevant materials (if and when they become available) and any other documents filed or furnished by MVW or ILG with the SEC may be obtained free of charge at the SEC'sweb site at www.sec.gov. In addition, security holders will be able to obtain free copies of the registration statement and the joint proxy statement/prospectus from MVW by going to its investor relations page on its corporate web site at www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com and from ILG by going to its investor relations page on its corporate web site at www.ilg.com.

*PARTICIPANTS IN THE SOLICITATION  *
MVW, ILG, their respective directors and certain of their respective executive officers and employees may be deemed to be participants in the solicitation of proxies in connection with the proposed transaction. Information about MVW directors and executive officers is set forth in its Annual Report on Form 10-K for the year ended December 31, 2017, which was filed with the SEC on February 27, 2018, and in its definitive proxy statement filed with the SEC on April 3, 2018, and information about ILG's directors and executive officers is set forth in its Annual Report on Form 10-K for the year ended December 31, 2017, which was filed with the SEC on March 1, 2018 and in its definitive proxy statement filed with the SEC on April 3, 2017. These documents are available free of charge from the sources indicated above, and from MVW by going to its investor relations page on its corporate web site at www.marriottvacationsworldwide.com and from ILG by going to its investor relations page on its corporate web site at www.ilg.com. Additional information regarding the interests of participants in the solicitation of proxies in connection with the proposed transaction will be included in the registration statement, the joint proxy statement/prospectus and other relevant materials MVW and ILG file with the SEC.

*Contacts:

For Marriott Vacations Worldwide

Investors:*
Jeff Hansen,
Investor Relations
407.206.6149
jeff.hansen@mvwc.com 

*Media:*
Ed Kinney or Jacqueline V. Ader-Grob,
Corporate Communications
407.206.6278 / 407.513.6950
ed.kinney@mvwc.com or jacqueline.ader-grob@mvwc.com


*For ILG*

*Investors: *
Lily Arteaga
305.925.7302
Lily.Arteaga@ilg.com

*Media:*
Christine Boesch
305.925.7267
Chris.Boesch@ilg.com

George Sard / Stephen Pettibone / David Millar
Sard Verbinnen & Co.
ILG-SVC@sardverb.com

_[*TUG Moderator Note:* Info/tables that didn't copy as readable have been deleted from this post; see link for complete info.]_






 View original content:http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...f-premier-vacation-experiences-300638848.html

SOURCE Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation


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## WBP

Hopefully, Diamond Resorts will pull their affiliation from Interval International, and move to RCI, where Diamond will make the perfect bedfellows with Wyndham at RCI.


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## dansimms

Curious to see how this can enhance my MVCI Ownership!


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## GregT

Kudos to Marriott - the timeshare division has gone from being an anchor in 2009 to being a formidable enterprise in 2019.  This will no longer be the DC that we are all accustomed to, this is a much bigger organization now and attention will be elsewhere. 

It does suggest some type of cross pollination across the systems because of the Mexico and Caribbean properties.

Interesting to see and congrats again to Marriott - a stunning transformation.

Best,

Greg

PS- we should be prepared for the sales pitch - “if you want access to the Starwood properties, you need to use Trust Points”.  Irrespective of whether it’s true, I expect to hear it.


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## WBP

Hopefully, Marriott Vacation Club/ILG, will save (formerly) Club Intrawest ((now)Embarc) from its takeover by Diamond Resorts, and acquire the Embarc (formerly Club Intrawest) piece of Diamond International. In my opinion, the Club Intrawest resorts would be a perfect compliment to the MVC/MVW/ILG network of resorts.


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## WBP

Fact Sheet:

http://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/static-files/9398e4bc-c058-433a-a9b7-6d7f099394e2


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## Steve Fatula

Hopefully at some point MVCI owners will have better access to the Vistana properties? There's a few we would be interested in. Looks like a lot of them have pretty good size villas.


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## RLS50

Steve Fatula said:


> Hopefully at some point MVCI owners will have better access to the Vistana properties? There's a few we would be interested in. Looks like a lot of them have pretty good size villas.


If you have any interest in Cancun, the Westin Lagunamar is outstanding.   We also spent time at the JW Marriott in Cancun (including Club 91 access) and while we do enjoy the JW Marriott property, and it has some nice features, overall we think WLR is better.  In my opinion WLR is one of the best planned and best laid out properties anywhere.


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## thinze3

dansimms said:


> Curious to see how this can enhance my MVCI Ownership!



It will without doubt enhance your ownership by giving you more access to incredible places. For Hyatt, think Beaver Creek, Cabo, and Texas Hill Country. We stayed at Sheraton Vistana Resort Villas in Orlando years ago and loved it. We stayed at Westin Ka'anapali years ago and loved it even more.  One of of favorite timeshare stays ever.


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## Swice

I guess this means Interval trades will live on.


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## Old Hickory

Swice said:


> I guess this means Interval trades will live on.



Long live II trading!


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## Fasttr

Swice said:


> I guess this means Interval trades will live on.


The sales guys are going to have to learn a new trick.


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## cp73

Swice said:


> I guess this means Interval trades will live on.



 Yeah so much for all the salespersons saying they will be leaving International Interval. They need to change their script.


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## Steve Fatula

cp73 said:


> Yeah so much for all the salespersons saying they will be leaving International Interval. They need to change their script.



That won't be hard! When you are not limited to facts, pretty easy to come up with new spin to sell. Adding ILG opens up thousands of new pitches!


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## rickandcindy23

There are way too many threads on this topic, most started by the same person and in various forums.  I hope a moderator will try to combine everything into one.  

I wish Disney would leave RCI and join the higher-end properties of ILG and Marriott.  That would be awesome.  There is a thread recently started on that subject.


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## SueDonJ

rickandcindy23 said:


> There are way too many threads on this topic, most started by the same person and in various forums.  I hope a moderator will try to combine everything into one. ...



With so many different timeshare companies - and TUG forums! - involved, we're trying to figure out how/where to consolidate the info.  Things should be cleaned up later today.


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## mjm1

Glad to read this news. We will be attending a presentation this afternoon, so will be interested to see what they say. They can’t know the details of how this will affect owners of the various brands, but I’m sure they are excited about the news as well.

Given the similar high quality of Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt properties, hopefully the can create an internal exchange system. Time will tell.

Best regards.

Mike


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## GregT

All, don't we always do predictions (that lack any factual basis) when something major is announced?

I would like to make my predictions as follows:

1) Marriott-to-Marriott preference trading via II will remain unchanged (and similar results as the past)
2) Starwood-to-Starwood preference trading via II will remain unchanged (and similar results as the past)
3) Starwood owners will continue to be able to trade to other Starwood properties using StarOptions
4) Starwood owners wishing to book Marriott properties (not via II trade) will need to buy Trust Points (which enrolls the Starwood week)
5) Marriott owners wishing to book Starwood properties (not via II trade) will need to use Trust Points
6) Some Starwood inventory will be deposited into the Trust for WSJ and the four Mexico properties
7) Hyatt properties will only be accessible to Starwood/Marriott owners via II trade
8) II trade fees will continue to increase
9) We will continue to see hotel conversions of Starwood/Marriott properties as the primarily source of new properties
10) Those hotel conversions will be deposited into the Marriott Trust
11) HGVC will become a hot target, as Diamond and Wyndham look to compete with Marriott's planted flag in the high-end space
12) Directly purchased Trust Points (and grandfathered Trust Points) will become valuable
13) There will be an amnesty for post-2010 weeks to be enrolled (for a fee), but time will prove that Elected Points are powerful in the Marriott system and less so for the broader system that is being created.

I do think if anyone is on the fence about buying Trust Points (resale), you should buy them now before the merger is completed.   I am speculating, but I believe that Trust Points will be the skeleton key that accesses everything.   And that Marriott will discriminate between Directly purchased Trust Points and resale Trust Points -- but will grandfather existing resales, kind of like the pre-2010/post-2010 weeks.  Wyndham discriminates between resale points and directly purchased points, and Marriott could too.

This opens up an entire universe of potential Trust Point purchasers to Marriott and they must be salivating like Pavlov's dog.   We will see pictures of Westin St. John, Cancun and Cabo San Lucas in every Marriott sales office -- and Starwood sales offices will show Aruba, Newport Coast and the Big Island.

It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.  I do not think it will be harmful for us, and there will be benefits if there is a post-2010 amnesty (since now Marriott needs even more Marriott inventory available because of the potential demand).   This is all *pure speculation*, but this is what I would do if I was designing the system.  

Best,

Greg


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## Swice

mjm1 said:


> Glad to read this news. We will be attending a presentation this afternoon, so will be interested to see what they say. They can’t know the details of how this will affect owners of the various brands, but I’m sure they are excited about the news as well.
> Mike



Please pass along what the spin is.    Yes, I realize we will have to filter through some sales talk over the next few months, but I'm still interested to hear what they're staying.   Maybe there will be a nugget of true information about actual daily usage for us (actual clients).


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## bizaro86

SueDonJ said:


> With so many different timeshare companies - and TUG forums! - involved, we're trying to figure out how/where to consolidate the info.  Things should be cleaned up later today.



Could we leave one each in Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt? The slant on each thread relates to the effects on each system, and a mefa-tread will be hard to read because it'll be too huge. Plus, the thoughts on the smaller systems will probably get buried.


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## CalGalTraveler

GregT said:


> All, don't we always do predictions (that lack any factual basis) when something major is announced?
> 
> I would like to make my predictions as follows:
> 
> 
> 11) HGVC will become a hot target, as Diamond and Wyndham look to compete with Marriott's planted flag in the high-end space
> 12) Directly purchased Trust Points (and grandfathered Trust Points) will become valuable
> 
> 
> I do think if anyone is on the fence about buying Trust Points (resale), you should buy them now before the merger is completed.   I am speculating, but I believe that Trust Points will be the skeleton key that accesses everything.   And that Marriott will discriminate between Directly purchased Trust Points and resale Trust Points -- but will grandfather existing resales, kind of like the pre-2010/post-2010 weeks.  Wyndham discriminates between resale points and directly purchased points, and Marriott could too.
> 
> This is all *pure speculation*, but this is what I would do if I was designing the system.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



This is really interesting. Thanks for compiling.

#11 is concerning if HGVC is acquired. They do a very nice job for owners. What would be the probability of Hilton acquiring Diamond or Wyndham vs. other way around?

Where can we learn about resale trust points?  Are those the same as MVC Points and DC points? (I am not a Marriott Owner but own Vistana WKORVN and HGVC.)

Also what do you think will happen to Sheraton Flex, and Hyatt's points programs?


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## mjm1

GregT said:


> All, don't we always do predictions (that lack any factual basis) when something major is announced?
> 
> I would like to make my predictions as follows:
> 
> 1) Marriott-to-Marriott preference trading via II will remain unchanged (and similar results as the past)
> 2) Starwood-to-Starwood preference trading via II will remain unchanged (and similar results as the past)
> 3) Starwood owners will continue to be able to trade to other Starwood properties using StarOptions
> 4) Starwood owners wishing to book Marriott properties (not via II trade) will need to buy Trust Points (which enrolls the Starwood week)
> 5) Marriott owners wishing to book Starwood properties (not via II trade) will need to use Trust Points
> 6) Some Starwood inventory will be deposited into the Trust for WSJ and the four Mexico properties
> 7) Hyatt properties will only be accessible to Starwood/Marriott owners via II trade
> 8) II trade fees will continue to increase
> 9) We will continue to see hotel conversions of Starwood/Marriott properties as the primarily source of new properties
> 10) Those hotel conversions will be deposited into the Marriott Trust
> 11) HGVC will become a hot target, as Diamond and Wyndham look to compete with Marriott's planted flag in the high-end space
> 12) Directly purchased Trust Points (and grandfathered Trust Points) will become valuable
> 13) There will be an amnesty for post-2010 weeks to be enrolled (for a fee), but time will prove that Elected Points are powerful in the Marriott system and less so for the broader system that is being created.
> 
> I do think if anyone is on the fence about buying Trust Points (resale), you should buy them now before the merger is completed.   I am speculating, but I believe that Trust Points will be the skeleton key that accesses everything.   And that Marriott will discriminate between Directly purchased Trust Points and resale Trust Points -- but will grandfather existing resales, kind of like the pre-2010/post-2010 weeks.  Wyndham discriminates between resale points and directly purchased points, and Marriott could too.
> 
> This opens up an entire universe of potential Trust Point purchasers to Marriott and they must be salivating like Pavlov's dog.   We will see pictures of Westin St. John, Cancun and Cabo San Lucas in every Marriott sales office -- and Starwood sales offices will show Aruba, Newport Coast and the Big Island.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.  I do not think it will be harmful for us, and there will be benefits if there is a post-2010 amnesty (since now Marriott needs even more Marriott inventory available because of the potential demand).   This is all *pure speculation*, but this is what I would do if I was designing the system.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Greg, thanks for sharing your speculation. I can see a lot of your points, if not all of them, coming to fruition. I would hope that they create internal access to Hyatt as well. I think owners experiences will be enhanced overall. This will be fun to watch unfold.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## TUGBrian

def not going to merge all of the individual resort threads into a single one...that would IMO just make things ridiculous.  (plus owners not in the main thread wouldnt think to look in the marriott forum etc if its consolidated there).


----------



## Old Hickory

TUGBrian said:


> def not going to merge all of the individual resort threads into a single one...that would IMO just make things ridiculous.  (plus owners not in the main thread wouldnt think to look in the marriott forum etc if its consolidated there).



There is another forum other than Marriott?


----------



## WBP

TUGBrian said:


> def not going to merge all of the individual resort threads into a single one...that would IMO just make things ridiculous.  (plus owners not in the main thread wouldnt think to look in the marriott forum etc if its consolidated there).



Thank you, Brian, for bringing common sense to a ridiculous concept. This conversation is unique to each brand. Other than the career lurkers on TUG, who might think of going on an Easter Egg Hunt for the information, I can't imagine the "Average Joe" TUG member looking outside the forum for the brand that they own with, or are interested in. For example, I did not post this information in the Hyatt Forum, but it showed up there, on its own, because it is sufficiently unique to Hyatt owners.

Sadly, the thread that I started on this subject in the Disney Vacation Club Forum, was shut down by a moderator, on the basis that the thread is posted elsewhere. In my opinion, that too is ridiculous. As a DVC member, who was extremely disappointed when DVC changed their exchange company from Interval International to RCI (and there are many of us), I believe there was merit for the thread - - that was uniquely positioned for DVC members - -to stand on its own, in the DVC Forum, and I disagree with the moderators decision to shut it down. In my opinion, DVC members have the right to discuss the implications of today's news, in the context of DVC members, who are dissatisfied with DVC's RCI affiliation, and prospects for a brighter future with Interval International. But, unfortunately, that opportunity was brought to a halt by one of your moderators.


----------



## DeniseM

DVC and Diamond resorts are not involved in this merger in any way.  There is no good reason to start multiple threads in forums for resort systems that are not even involved.

*The published TUG policy is not to permit duplicate posts, but Brian and the Vistana and Marriott Mods have agreed to allow 2 threads in those specific forums, because both systems are equally involved in the merger.


----------



## BigMac

*GREGT *wrote:

All, don't we always do predictions (that lack any factual basis) when something major is announced?I would like to make my predictions as follows:
*9) We will continue to see hotel conversions of Starwood/Marriott properties as the primary source of new properties.*

 Yep that's what it looks like. This was from an ILG Investor presentation in 2017.


----------



## WBP

DeniseM said:


> DVC and Diamond resorts are not involved in this merger in any way.  There is no good reason to start multiple threads in forums for resort systems that are not even involved.
> 
> *The published TUG policy is not to permit duplicate posts, but Brian and the Vistana and Marriott Mods have agreed to allow 2 threads in those specific forums, because both systems are equally involved in the merger.



_*"There is no good reason to start multiple threads in forums for resort systems that are not even involved."*_ Really? I entirely disagree with you. I believe that this topic has a place in each of the places where it sits, or once sat.

This merger has widespread implications, and as an owner with Diamond (not by choice) and DVC (and several other developers), I can say with certainty, that this merger has implications on both brands, one being the opportunity for one or the other to escape or be evicted from their current exchange company relationship. Unfortunately, because of your short sightedness, you have chosen to deny TUG members, who are DVC or Diamond owners/enthusiasts the opportunity to talk about/rally for a defection, in the context of MVW's acquisition of ILG.


----------



## sb2313




----------



## SeaDoc

http://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/static-files/67b0c3ff-d538-4d5f-82d3-4d125f821d3b


----------



## VacationForever

GregT said:


> All, don't we always do predictions (that lack any factual basis) when something major is announced?
> 
> I would like to make my predictions as follows:
> 
> 1) Marriott-to-Marriott preference trading via II will remain unchanged (and similar results as the past)
> 2) Starwood-to-Starwood preference trading via II will remain unchanged (and similar results as the past)
> 3) Starwood owners will continue to be able to trade to other Starwood properties using StarOptions
> 4) Starwood owners wishing to book Marriott properties (not via II trade) will need to buy Trust Points (which enrolls the Starwood week)
> 5) Marriott owners wishing to book Starwood properties (not via II trade) will need to use Trust Points
> 6) Some Starwood inventory will be deposited into the Trust for WSJ and the four Mexico properties
> 7) Hyatt properties will only be accessible to Starwood/Marriott owners via II trade
> 8) II trade fees will continue to increase
> 9) We will continue to see hotel conversions of Starwood/Marriott properties as the primarily source of new properties
> 10) Those hotel conversions will be deposited into the Marriott Trust
> 11) HGVC will become a hot target, as Diamond and Wyndham look to compete with Marriott's planted flag in the high-end space
> 12) Directly purchased Trust Points (and grandfathered Trust Points) will become valuable
> 13) There will be an amnesty for post-2010 weeks to be enrolled (for a fee), but time will prove that Elected Points are powerful in the Marriott system and less so for the broader system that is being created.
> 
> I do think if anyone is on the fence about buying Trust Points (resale), you should buy them now before the merger is completed.   I am speculating, but I believe that Trust Points will be the skeleton key that accesses everything.   And that Marriott will discriminate between Directly purchased Trust Points and resale Trust Points -- but will grandfather existing resales, kind of like the pre-2010/post-2010 weeks.  Wyndham discriminates between resale points and directly purchased points, and Marriott could too.
> 
> This opens up an entire universe of potential Trust Point purchasers to Marriott and they must be salivating like Pavlov's dog.   We will see pictures of Westin St. John, Cancun and Cabo San Lucas in every Marriott sales office -- and Starwood sales offices will show Aruba, Newport Coast and the Big Island.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.  I do not think it will be harmful for us, and there will be benefits if there is a post-2010 amnesty (since now Marriott needs even more Marriott inventory available because of the potential demand).   This is all *pure speculation*, but this is what I would do if I was designing the system.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


This is a good stab at what may happen.  These predictions imply Marrriott Trust as the center of the universe.  My prediction is that Hyatt, Vistana and Marriott will be kept separate and only developer purchases have access across the other systems, much like Wyndham model.  I do agree that there will likely to be a retro/requalify/junk fee model for each system to make resale weeks or points whole in the future.


----------



## DeniseM

> Unfortunately, because of your short sightedness, you have chosen to deny TUG members, who are DVC or Diamond owners/enthusiasts the opportunity to talk about/rally for a defection, in the context of MVW's acquisition of ILG.



Based on your statement - we should post the same info on *every forum on TUG*, because maybe those owners would like to defect too? 

I'm sorry that the forum rules are so difficult for you.  Feel free to contact TUG Brian and ask him to make a special exception for you.

*Avoid posting duplicate messages*
Choose the most appropriate forum for your message and place it there and only there. Posting the same message in multiple forums spreads the replies around to different parts of the board and makes them much harder to locate later. If your message does not fit with the stated theme of any of the other forums, please place it in the TUG Lounge forum. This is a special place for "Idle Chit Chat", notices of member meetings, etc. *Duplicate posts will be removed when found.*​


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## nanceetom

DeniseM said:


> DVC and Diamond resorts are not involved in this merger in any way.  There is no good reason to start multiple threads in forums for resort systems that are not even involved.
> 
> *The published TUG policy is not to permit duplicate posts, but Brian and the Vistana and Marriott Mods have agreed to allow 2 threads in those specific forums, because both systems are equally involved in the merger.


Wow! A lot has been stated on this thread!  Don't mean to sound ignorant, but I guess I am.  Do long time tuggers believe that enrolled Legacy owners will be left out in the cold without bought Trust points?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Thanks @SeaDoc for the info. Interesting competitive comparisons at the end of the presentation. Does not include Diamond, Westgate, DVC, or HICV.  I did not know BlueGreen was as large as depicted.

Reading the low hanging fruit tea-leaves:


Exchanges and Rentals most likely garner the highest margin (and don't require much capital investment) and so they will seek to expand those products e.g.:
increase exchange fees, and possibly eliminate free exchanges such as SVN to enable a pay-for-exchange model across the entire network - although this will have to be balanced against charging the SVN club fee to all owners that is assessed today - which might be more lucrative to remain as is.
Also find ways to grab unreserved units earlier to rent and use the rentals as a way to acquire/educate new customers.

Cross-selling vacation ownership/points to existing customers to grow revenue will be another source of growth albeit lower margin due to high marketing costs. Cross-selling an existing customer will be much easier and less costly than selling to a new customer.  This gives them a LOT of fresh TS educated customers to sell points etc.
Although they will gain cost savings from scale in Resort Operations, that seems to have the most limited upside and they cannot raise MFs too much or they will have other issues with too many foreclosures/deedbacks and difficult to resale units which will make it more difficult to sell high-end vacation products.
It is interesting that they don't include Financing (8%) in sales related revenue. Seems like they are trying to build a case that "non-sales related revenue" is the business going forward.  Perhaps this is because timesharing sales have such a bad reputation and sales are not consistent and predictable like Maintenance Fee income.  If Financing were included in VOI Sales then the business would be 50%/50%.


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## nuwermj

CalGalTraveler said:


> Interesting competitive comparisons at the end of the presentation. Does not include Diamond, Westgate, DVC, or HICV.  I did not know BlueGreen was as large as depicted.



They can't include private companies since the data isn't available. 

As for Diamond ... Club membership is about 185,000 (2016 number); about 112 managed resorts; 2015 EBITDA was $385 million, it is probably a bit over $400 million for 2017.


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## vikingsholm

I'm going to speculate that Marriott will treat the acquisitions of Vistana and Hyatt similar to how they treated the incorporation of Ritz.

That is, instead of requiring existing members of Marriott, Hyatt, and Vistana systems to buy into each of the other systems specifically for better access, it will be based on the level of points (DC for Marriott, other amounts to be reckoned for the other systems) owned. I see them eventually merging the points systems similar to what Marriott hotels is doing with Starwood. That would involve some conversions to determine what Vistana and Hyatt points are worth vis a vis Marriott's, then assigning the level based on Marriott DC points equivalency.

So, although the timeshares would still likely keep their separate brandings (like Marriott VC and Ritz timeshares do), the points system would be merged eventually as they are when a Marriott DC owner accesses and reserves a Ritz timeshare through the DC system, and vice versa.

So, instead of a Marriott owner having to specifically buy into points for a Hyatt or Vistana system to reserve them, it would be based on the level of points one owns, similar to how Chairman level has different access rules for Ritz now than the lower levels of point ownership do. If someone currently owns Marriott DC points and Hyatt points, for example, these would be converted and merged into one larger number of points for use in reserving any of the systems, each with point charts showing required points for each reservation place and time, and rules for reserving criteria based on your overall level of points ownership. This is more or less a continuation of how MVC and Ritz timeshares do it now if I understand that correctly, so it simplifies the transition.

The reason this makes sense to me are:

1. Marriott VC did it with Ritz. Continuity.
2. It allows easier access to all of the systems' units. Marriott is making a strong point in its merger document that this merger is in large part about offering the most premium properties. So doing that fairly, efficiently, and easily is an important aspect of that.
3. If current owners of Marriott, Vistana, and Hyatt all had to separately purchase points that are designated for each of the other systems, it would be a mess, IMO, and owners may be disinclined to do so.

If, however, it's based on number of points owned, existing owners of a lot of points would have better access to the other systems, while other owners of fewer points (and new prospects) would be encouraged to upgrade their points to gain such access. I think this would encourage more points to be placed by owners into the system and be available more widely. If I as a Marriott owner am forced to buy into Hyatt and Vistana separately to get access, I don't think I would (unless for a very small cost). II has currently pinched off access to these Hyatt and Vistana trades for Marriott owners compared to prior years before they owned them, from what I've observed, and I'm not about to pay a lot more for what I used to be able to access more easily in II. So Marriott would gain both more points for exchange deposits and customer goodwill if they took this approach, plus more revenue from those who are new points buyers and upgraders who want access to an easily accessible unified system.  Simpler is better. JMO.


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## JIMinNC

This just came in an email from Marriott Vacation Club. I omitted a bunch of legal statements at the end about forward-looking statements, etc.

.......


We are pleased to announce that Marriott Vacations Worldwide℠ ("MVW") has agreed to acquire ILG, our longstanding exchange partner and a leading provider of premier vacation experiences under its Sheraton®, Westin® and Hyatt® Vacation Ownership portfolios. We are excited about this transaction and hope that you share our enthusiasm. As always, we are committed to providing you with the best vacation experience and service in the industry and will continue striving to further improve on our offerings and find ways to serve you even better in the future. A copy of the press release we issued can be found on the Investor Relations section of our website.

We are pleased that this transaction will bring together two industry leading partners with properties in some of the most highly demanded vacation destinations, including Mexico and the Caribbean. As one company, MVW and ILG will have approximately 650,000 owners, over 100 vacation ownership properties and more than 20,000 units located around the world. The combined company will be the global licensee of seven upper-upscale and luxury vacation brands, including Marriott Vacation Club®, Grand Residences by Marriott®, Ritz-Carlton Destination Club, Sheraton ® Vacation Club, Westin®Vacation Club, St. Regis Residence Club and Hyatt® Residence Club. With additional high-quality properties and ILG's Vistana™ Signature Experiences Owners premier exchange networks, we are hopeful that we can enhance our ability to provide you with more flexibility and vacation options in the future. With that in mind, please note that we have just announced this transaction today, and for now, there will be no changes in MVW's programs or products. Of course, MVW and Vistana Signature Experiences Owners will continue to have access to the Marriott Rewards®, Starwood Preferred Guest®and Ritz-Carlton Rewards® loyalty programs, which are expected to be combined into a single loyalty program in early 2019. 

We expect the transaction to close in the second half of 2018. Until then, MVW and ILG will continue to operate as separate companies. Your contacts at MVW will remain the same and you should continue to expect the same high level of service. 

If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact your MVW representative. We have also included a set of Frequently Asked Questions, which provide additional information. As always, thank you for your continued relationship with Marriott Vacations Worldwide.

Sincerely, 

Steve Weisz
President and Chief Executive Officer, Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation

FAQ


*What was announced today?*
We announced that Marriott Vacations Worldwide will acquire ILG in a cash and stock transaction with an implied equity value of approximately $4.7 billion.
The acquisition will create a leading global provider of premier vacation experiences. We believe that bringing together MVW and ILG will be a major win for all our stakeholders, including you — our valued Owners.
We expect the transaction to close in the second half of 2018. Until then, MVW and ILG will continue to be separate companies.

*Who is ILG?*
ILG is a leading provider of premier vacation experiences with over 40 properties and more than 250,000 owners in its Sheraton, Westin and Hyatt Vacation Ownership portfolio. ILG is also our longstanding exchange partner with exchange networks comprising nearly two million members and over 3,200 resorts worldwide. 
Importantly, ILG shares our dedication to providing top notch service to customers and owners, as well as our commitment to creating unparalleled vacation experiences.
For additional information about ILG, please visit its website at www.ilg.com.

*Why is Marriott Vacations Worldwide acquiring ILG? How will this impact me?*
This transaction will bring together two industry-leading partners with properties in some of the most highly demanded vacation destinations, including popular vacation locations in Mexico and the Caribbean.
Together, MVW and ILG will have over 100 vacation properties and more than 20,000 vacation ownership units around the world. We will also be the global licensee of seven upper-upscale and luxury vacation brands including Marriott Vacation Club, Grand Residences by Marriott, Ritz-Carlton Destination Club, Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, St. Regis Residence Club and Hyatt Residence Club.
With additional high-quality properties and premier exchange networks, we remain committed to providing the same high level of service and will continue to strive to further improve our offerings and find ways to serve you even better in the future. 
That said, please note that we have just announced this transaction today, and for now, there will be no changes in MVW's programs or products.
Of course, MVW, Sheraton and Westin Owners will continue to have access to the Marriott Rewards, Starwood Preferred Guest and Ritz-Carlton Rewards loyalty programs, which are expected to be combined into a single loyalty program in early 2019.

*Will I still have access to all of the destinations that I can visit now?*
Please note that, until the transaction closes, MVW and ILG remain independent companies and we will continue to operate separately.

*Will there be any changes in the ways in which I can use my ownership? Will I be able to use my ownership to visit ILG properties?*
For now, there will be no changes in MVW's programs or products.
As always, we are committed to providing you with the best vacation experience and service in the industry.
With additional high-quality properties and premier exchange networks, we remain committed to providing the same high level of service and will continue to strive to further improve our offerings and find ways to serve you even better in the future. 
With that said, it is still early in the process and there are many decisions to be made, including opportunities to enhance MVW's programs and product. It is important to note that until the transaction closes, which we expect to occur in the second half of 2018, MVW and ILG remain independent companies and we will continue to operate separately.
We will provide additional information as appropriate as decisions are made.

*Will there be any changes to my ownership contracts or pricing?*
We do not expect this transaction to result in any changes in your ownership contracts or the pricing of points. 
With that said, it is early in the process and there are still many decisions to be made.
It is important to note that until the transaction closes, which we expect to occur in the second half of 2018, MVW and ILG remain independent companies and we will continue to operate separately.

*When will the transaction be completed? *
We expect that the transaction will close in the second half of 2018, subject to regulatory approvals and approval by shareholders of both MVW and ILG.

*Who can I contact if I have more questions?*
As we move through this process, we will do our best to keep you informed.
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to reach out to your normal MVW contact.


----------



## thinze3

Just got the same email as Jim just posted.


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## Tokapeba

_[Threads merged.]_

With the acquisition does this open up an opportunity to buy into say Sheraton and have it converted to DC points when the transition is completed?

Is there another way to benefit from buying one of these before it closes?


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## kds4

Unlike merging hotel loyalty, I don't expect there to be an easy 'merging' of Starwood and Marriott timeshare points programs. I won't say it can never be done, but I can say it won't be done as quickly/easily as it was for Starwood Preferred Guest and Marriott Rewards. If it were me, I would not buy Starwood's timeshare product with the expectation that it will be morphing into Marriott Destination Club points ...


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## JIMinNC

Anything now is just speculation. We have no way of knowing whether DC points will even be the "currency" used in any cross-club reservation offerings or whether they will develop an entirely new model for bookings between MVC, Sheraton, Westin, and Hyatt. Buying anything now in anticipation of that would be very risky. It may also be several years before anything really changes. The merger won't close until later this year, so I would expect it to be later in 2019 or even 2020 and beyond before any meaningful enhancements are implemented. 

The 2020 year however does give Marriott a great opportunity to roll-out some sort of enhanced cross-program booking process in 2020 to "celebrate" the 10th anniversary of the Destination Club. Expect any such celebration though to require points to be purchased from the developer to get the maximum benefits.


----------



## chemteach

I just recently purchased Marriott, but have been with Starwood/Vistana for about 15 years now.  The Starwood/Vistana system is VERY different from Marriott.  All the Westin resorts require exactly the same number of "staroptions" (the Vistana monetary system) for a 2 bedroom lockout in high season.  The Westin system treats the same room type and season the same regardless of whether the resort is in Hawaii, St. John, Harborside, Cancun, Arizona, or California.  The Sheraton brand has some resorts with the same room type/same season for the same number of staroptions, and some resorts with lower staroption amounts for same season/same room type.  It's nowhere near as complicated as Marriott's DC points system.  It will be interesting to see if/how Marriott combines the Vistana/DC point systems since a Palm Desert unit in Westin is worth the same staroptions right now as Maui/Princeville, whereas the DC Trust has very different values for Hawaii compared to Palm Desert.  Only time will tell...  

Of course, Vistana could just completely scrap the staroptions program...  That would be very unfortunate for many Vistana owners who have been using their Palm Desert/Kierland units to go to Maui/Princeville/Harborside/St. Johns/Cancun.  It's important to remember that only what is written on your deed is what you own.  Systems can change at the whim of the owning company.  I've had my share of great vacations with Westin, am looking forward to having great vacations with Marriott, and hope this merger doesn't make things more difficult to get the trades I have been getting up till now.


----------



## Colt Seavers

As long as enrolled owners get $0 trades to Hyatt and Westin I will be happy as a clam.

Although I'm not sure exactly how happy the average clam is.


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## dougp26364

This could be great......or maybe not. It just depends on how they merge this I  relationship to the owners. I’ve always been to impatient to wait on Hyatt to release inventory for exchange into Key West or Sedona. 
If I can gain internal exchange access into those resorts (eventually at least), then it’s s win for me. If nothing really great comes from it from an ownership perspective, I’ve lost nothing. 
I doubt we see much movement from an owners perspective anytime soon. And when we do, it won’t surprise me to see a new fee associated with any enhancements


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## BocaBoy

DeniseM said:


> *The published TUG policy is not to permit duplicate posts, but Brian and the Vistana and Marriott Mods have agreed to allow 2 threads in those specific forums, because both systems are equally involved in the merger.


Why is the Hyatt system not as equally affected?


----------



## DeniseM

> Why is the Hyatt system not as equally affected?



Hyatt is also part of the merger.  DVC and Diamond are not involved at all.


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## Pathways

BocaBoy said:


> Why is the Hyatt system not as equally affected?



With HRC being affected as part of the entitiy being purchased, I might speculate (as a HRC owner) that we are least 'affected' by whatever MVC rolls out.  Our ownership is fixed week/fixed unit which most of us purchased for that exact benefit which is deeded and cannot be changed.

Possible negatives would be changes to the point values for reservations outside our owned week, or changes to the points required for II trades.

Positives: I will speculate one of the first items of the new business will be to kill the already crippled HPP.  It has been underperforming since the rollout, and I believe is a large component of the unhappiness of the ILG shareholders, who then put pressure on the board to sell.

If the HPP is not selling well now, how many sales will be made between now and the close of the merger?  Any salesman making their quota selling HPP in the next six months is worthy of a high level sales position at Wyndham  or even Vidanta!


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## Marathoner

Yes, lets speculate for the fun of it and to predict the future of timeshares.

I believe we can all agree on the mission statement of the new Marriott Corporation: Maximize Revenue Growth.  Every other consideration is immaterial in a capitalistic environment.

Now, here are my 4 principles to support their mission statement:
1.  Leverage the ILG acquisition to continue and expand their main cash cow product, the DC point
2.  Keep and support the revenue growth capability of their legacy products such as II exchange fees, sale of Hyatt Maui weeks, income from their existing property management business, etc
3.  Identify cost synergies, merge back office and support activities, consolidate technology, and reduce headcount of the combined entity
4.  While a very distant after-thought: keep the legacy customers from becoming dissatisfied with their legacy purchase.  They are the best fodder for the sales of DC points, after all

So, we must get rid of any expectation of some of the ideas in previous posts which do not support these principles.  These silly ideas include free exchanges between timeshare systems, reduction of any fees, convenience of exchanges between systems for the legacy customer (unless they are willing to pay), etc.

So, what could the future look like?  well, in the short-term, very little will change.  Internal management and employees will be jockeying to come out on top of the combined firm, merger and rationalization of similar business groups will need to occur, the combined firm will need to hire strategy consultants to develop a new go-forward strategy, etc.

However, in the long-term, there are some things that would be interesting that support the 4 principles:
1.  Every property across Marriott, VSE, and Hyatt will have DC points assigned to them
2.  Both a one-time and an annual enrollment fee will be created to allow existing VSE/Hyatt owners to convert their week to DC points
3.  Buying into DC points will allow everyone in the legacy system to reserve days in the other legacy systems, with the requisite reservation fees
4.  Retain the legacy exchange systems but keep raising legacy exchange fees to help Marriott meet its quarterly Wall Street revenue estimates
5.  Using ROFR, place the specific legacy VSE and Hyatt weeks into the DC Trust which enables Marriott salespeople to more effectively sell DC points.  These properties include Hyatt Key West and Colorado ski weeks (Aspen, Beaver Creek, Breck)
6.  Slowly decommission legacy websites and support staff.  Consolidate into the strategic website (II) and support groups.
7.  Maintenance fees will increase at a faster rate for VSE and Hyatt properties so that they fit into the 5yr/10yr renovation cycles which Marriott property management favors.  After all, the DC point owner are already conditioned to have "Marriott" standards when they reserve into a VSE or Hyatt property.

So, I expect that we will see some legacy buyers happy with the merger and some unhappy.  All will pay more and, to be fair, offered more as a result of the merger.


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## Superchief

As someone who has been through several mergers in various industries, I predict that most MVC owners will be worse off overall in three years than we are today. 

Higher costs per vacation night
More limited availability at our own MVC resorts
Lower appreciation/benefuts for ownership levels
More 'black box' regarding how inventory is allocated
Total chaos regarding villa assignment priorities
Less appreciation by corporate for 'loyal' owners
Higher staff turnover
Less 'family' feeling at the resorts


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## jeepie

Superchief said:


> As someone who has been through several mergers in various industries, I predict that most MVC owners will be worse off overall in three years than we are today.
> 
> Higher costs per vacation night
> More limited availability at our own MVC resorts
> Lower appreciation/benefuts for ownership levels
> More 'black box' regarding how inventory is allocated
> Total chaos regarding villa assignment priorities
> Less appreciation by corporate for 'loyal' owners
> Higher staff turnover
> Less 'family' feeling at the resorts


Superchief, you may be right. Will you be selling your interests now? Just curious. Cheers.


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## SunandFun83

Hey Marathoner,

People are speculating that every property gets assigned Destination Point value.  I think we go back to 2011 and the push to "Enroll your Weeks"  If you own Vistana, Hyatt, other II properties or points will you have to "Enroll your weeks" and buy destination points to play.  The big money is to sell more points and enroll weeks.

I think VAC may be legally bound to let Hyatt and Vistana owners keep their rights inside their own systems.  But, if you own Hyatt will you have to pay to enroll your weeks and add points if you want to play in the Marriott system?  FYI, Hyatt is trying to role out a point system with a cost to enroll.  Hyatt also has a big advantage for II exchanges, a Hyatt diamond week is 2,200 points and a 2br exchange only costs 1,300 points.


----------



## Roger830

Superchief said:


> Higher costs per vacation night
> More limited availability at our own MVC resorts
> Lower appreciation/benefuts for ownership levels
> More 'black box' regarding how inventory is allocated
> Total chaos regarding villa assignment priorities
> Less appreciation by corporate for 'loyal' owners
> Higher staff turnover
> Less 'family' feeling at the resorts



That sounds like Wyndham today.


----------



## SueDonJ

BocaBoy said:


> Why is the Hyatt system not as equally affected?



As you can imagine it's been a bit confusing for the mods/admin today with so many new posts/threads all over the site.  It took some time to review existing speculative threads that were started prior to today's announcement, and then determine how/where any acquisition discussions should remain open.  At the time she posted I don't think Denise meant that Hyatt wasn't equally affected, but instead she simply didn't mention Hyatt when explaining why threads in any forums that aren't impacted were being closed.

There is an open, ongoing thread in the Hyatt Residence Club forum that began with speculation but has relatively few posts in it, so it's remaining intact as both pre-announcement speculation and post-announcement discussion.  (If the speculation thread in that forum had turned into a monster like the one in the Marriott forum had, it too would have been closed and a new thread dealing with the announced acquisition would be opened.)

There are now three TUG forums with open, ongoing threads related to this acquisition.  Hopefully that's enough for all owners/members who will be impacted to easily find the discussion related to their individual ownerships.

*Marriott Vacations Worldwide, Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC) purchase of Interval Leisure Group (ILG) discussion!
Vistana Signature Experiences, Marriott Vacations Worldwide to Acquire ILG to Create a Leading Global Provider of Premier Vacation
Hyatt Residence Club, Marriott and ILG*


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## DeniseM

Hi Sue - You are correct - I hadn't seen the Hyatt thread when I first posted.


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## bizaro86

Marathoner said:


> Yes, lets speculate for the fun of it and to predict the future of timeshares.
> 
> I believe we can all agree on the mission statement of the new Marriott Corporation: Maximize Revenue Growth.  Every other consideration is immaterial in a capitalistic environment.
> 
> Now, here are my 4 principles to support their mission statement:
> 1.  Leverage the ILG acquisition to continue and expand their main cash cow product, the DC point
> 2.  Keep and support the revenue growth capability of their legacy products such as II exchange fees, sale of Hyatt Maui weeks, income from their existing property management business, etc
> 3.  Identify cost synergies, merge back office and support activities, consolidate technology, and reduce headcount of the combined entity
> 4.  While a very distant after-thought: keep the legacy customers from becoming dissatisfied with their legacy purchase.  They are the best fodder for the sales of DC points, after all
> 
> So, we must get rid of any expectation of some of the ideas in previous posts which do not support these principles.  These silly ideas include free exchanges between timeshare systems, reduction of any fees, convenience of exchanges between systems for the legacy customer (unless they are willing to pay), etc.
> 
> So, what could the future look like?  well, in the short-term, very little will change.  Internal management and employees will be jockeying to come out on top of the combined firm, merger and rationalization of similar business groups will need to occur, the combined firm will need to hire strategy consultants to develop a new go-forward strategy, etc.
> 
> However, in the long-term, there are some things that would be interesting that support the 4 principles:
> 1.  Every property across Marriott, VSE, and Hyatt will have DC points assigned to them
> 2.  Both a one-time and an annual enrollment fee will be created to allow existing VSE/Hyatt owners to convert their week to DC points
> 3.  Buying into DC points will allow everyone in the legacy system to reserve days in the other legacy systems, with the requisite reservation fees
> 4.  Retain the legacy exchange systems but keep raising legacy exchange fees to help Marriott meet its quarterly Wall Street revenue estimates
> 5.  Using ROFR, place the specific legacy VSE and Hyatt weeks into the DC Trust which enables Marriott salespeople to more effectively sell DC points.  These properties include Hyatt Key West and Colorado ski weeks (Aspen, Beaver Creek, Breck)
> 6.  Slowly decommission legacy websites and support staff.  Consolidate into the strategic website (II) and support groups.
> 7.  Maintenance fees will increase at a faster rate for VSE and Hyatt properties so that they fit into the 5yr/10yr renovation cycles which Marriott property management favors.  After all, the DC point owner are already conditioned to have "Marriott" standards when they reserve into a VSE or Hyatt property.
> 
> So, I expect that we will see some legacy buyers happy with the merger and some unhappy.  All will pay more and, to be fair, offered more as a result of the merger.



I agree with the part about profit maximizing
Which is why I really doubt that they'll put Hyatt/Westin/Sheraton inventory in the trust directly. Why give all those existing DC point members something for free. Instead, it would be way more profitable (especially in the short term) to offer DC+ where you can book all the other brands with your points. And you can convert your regular old DC points to the new and improved DC+ simply by buying 1500 trust points. But you need to buy now, because with the new functionality prices are going up next month.


----------



## dioxide45

Obviously everything at this point is speculation, but are Vistana owners the ones with the most to lose? Sure they can get access to some great properties, but what will it cost? It would make sense that Marriott will try to make the DC program the surviving system. The skim gives them some additional profit in addition to the ability to upsell. Marriott did a great job selling developer points to current owners, even legacy resale owners "topped" up their points, well, just because. Their problem will be trying to entice existing VSN members to get in on the DC program. Vistana's StarOption chart is easy and doesn't discriminate like the DC point chart does. Would a Platinum Plus owner in Palm Desert be able to still book Hawaii in the summer in the DC program? They can do that now.

The biggest hurdle that VAC will have to overcome is the fragmented system that Vistana has created. Weeks, multiple trusts (even in the same resort). Lack of ROFR at most of their properties. it will be hard for VAC to create a cohesive system. I think it would be in their best interest to create a single DC system. They now have a new owner base that they can sell points to, but if they alienate the existing Vistana owners, they may not be willing to buy. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.


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## vikingsholm

Lots of cynicism and cautions here about how we're going to get hosed, it will take forever to devise a workable merged system, blah blah blah.

Sorry, I'm not buying into that.

I started as a real skeptic of the DC system. As a Marriott Lake Tahoe Grand Residence legacy quarter share weeks owner, they took awhile longer to figure out how to incorporate us into the DC system, because we own a specific unit for each of 13 weeks per year (one per month). But they did it, and it worked.

At first, I thought the skim would be a real rip off from what I'd read on TUG, and I didn't understand that buying into the system didn't commit me to enrolling weeks, but just offered another option, fully flexible every year. Now, I mix use of our weeks, occupying our favored weeks, renting out some weeks, trading in 5 different exchange systems, and electing weeks for points stays of 1 day to 2 weeks or more at Marriott and Ritz timeshares all over. It is extremely flexible, and they let us buy into the DC system with our 13 legacy weeks at the standard multi week rate. It has really enhanced our overall use of our Marriott timeshares. I barely notice the skim, and get pretty much what I want with sufficient lead time.

I think they really want to make this work well, and become the premier high end timeshare system with satisfied customers. I also believe they will find a way to make it easy to use, minimizing multiple system confusions, and overcome any legal or logistical issues that some think may make it difficult to incorporate the new systems. These will all be a part of Marriott now, regardless of their branding. Marriott knows how to manage, and I'm relieved that they are the lead on this and not ILG, or Diamond taking over.

Sure, they want to make money, but I think they'll have a whole new market of eager customers once those potential buyers find out what will be available through this system. I think Marriott will do it faster than many here seem to imagine - they've been through it before. They incorporated Ritz and Grand Residences relatively smoothly, with different levels of access for Ritz based on number of points owned, and I see the same with Vistana and Hyatt. They've probably been thinking about it for quite awhile already.


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## nuwermj

dioxide45 said:


> The biggest hurdle that VAC will have to overcome is the fragmented system that Vistana has created. Weeks, multiple trusts (even in the same resort). ... it will be hard for VAC to create a cohesive system.



Diamond Resorts has a fragmented system which they market as a single system.


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## JIMinNC

Here's my take on the speculation...

MVW is paying a premium for ILG that they will need to recoup (VAC stock was down almost 9% or $11.82 to $122.61 today). The $75 million in projected general and administrative and operational savings only represents about 10% of the combined companies' EBITDA, so they will need to find a way to leverage the expanded customer base to sell more product and boost the top line revenue. If all you do is keep selling to your existing network and selling the same benefits, you aren't leveraging you broader base of prospects. As soon as they practically can develop the capability, I think VAC will want to be able to sell the ability for current MVC DC points users to use their points at Sheraton, Westin, and Hyatt vacation ownership properties. They will also want to be able to sell access to MVC's broader network to VSN and HRC owners, to make it easier to sell those points/properties. Whether they will ever be able to consolidate into one true unified system I think is doubtful, given the different and complex structures of the programs.

So, they need to develop an exchange mechanism that will allow this cross-club access. They could develop another exchange company on top of the current MVC Exchange Company, VSN, and HRC networks. Given that the most senior management of the combined company is the VAC management, however, it would not surprise me to see them try to utilize the MVC Exchange Company to facilitate the cross-system exchanges. To do that, they would just need to assign each week in VSN and HRC a DC point value (skim and all). "Internal" bookings between the existing VSN/HRC resorts could continue as they do today within those systems, but to participate in the MVC Exchange, VSN/HRC owners would need to enroll their weeks, just as pre-2010 MVC weeks owners were incentivized to do at the beginning of the DC. Depending on how badly they want this inventory available in the MVC Exchange, they might offer a fee-based enrollment option to VSN/HRC owners just as they did at the outset of the DC. This would potentially get a lot of inventory into the system quicker than if they required a big points buy to enroll. The problem with this approach is that the VSN/HRC owners would have to "pay up" to get access to the MVC locations through the Exchange, but existing MVC DC users would not have to "pay up" to get access to enrolled VSN/HRC inventory. That would be an inequity - and a missed revenue opportunity for VAC. As a result, that may make some sort of a "Super Exchange" that sits on top of the existing programs more likely, one that all owners have to pay to access, either through a fee or an additional developer purchase that "supercharges" their existing DC Points/StarOptions, etc. (to recycle an old DC sales phrase). This may result in less real cross-system availability, but as long as that capability exists in principal, it would allow the combined sales teams to sell the "sizzle", even though there would be very little steak there.

It would also not surprise me if access to a Super-Exchange were restricted to the higher tier owners in the various systems to incentivize people to buy up.

The sheer complexity and fragmented nature of the VSN system will make this integration very difficult. I'm not that familiar with the Hyatt program, so I'm not sure how well that program will blend, but trying to blend VSN and MVC into some sort of a reasonably simple Super-Exchange looks to be the integration project from Hell.


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## dioxide45

This one is way out there, but perhaps VAC could offer up enrollment to Vistana owners using a 30 StarOptions to 1 DC point. This would make an SVV 2BR Platinum season worth about 2700 DC points. On par with the Marriott properties in Orlando. Of course, a Hawaii OF owner only gets about 5700 DC points, not good. Give existing Vistana owners the ability to enroll in DC and convert their StarOptions to DC Points. This is probably the easiest sell. The harder sell would be to assign a set amount of DC points based on the actual week, season, resort and view you own. There will be winners and losers in that type of program.

For resale voluntary owners, they could use the week, season, resort and view to determine the DC point value. Or not offer enrollment at all. Though if they want it to all mesh well and have ripe owner base to sell new DC points to, offering enrollment is a good way to get there. VAC did a great job selling DC points, even to resale weeks owners.


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## steve1000

As an owner in each of Marriott, VSE, and Hyatt (as well as some other systems) it has been interesting and sometimes challenging learning the rules and the ins and outs of each system. My weeks are a mix of developer-purchases and resale weeks. I am quite curious how the systems will ultimately be integrated. Not sure how it will all come together but I expect that VAC will come out best - may be an opportune time to buy some VAC stock.


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## mjm1

We attended a MVC sales presentation today. 

The salesperson discussed the acquisition and focused on MVC owners gaining access to Vistana and Hyatt properties through the DC program. He also indicated that he was sharing his opinion and he was speculating. When I mentioned the idea of offering enrollment of currently owned units in those systems into MVC he said he didn’t think that would happen. Rather, they would focus on ROFR to add properties to the DC program. I told him that would limit what they would make available to all owners, so it would make more sense to offer enrollment similar to how they allowed legacy owners to enroll their weeks. He did submit that is a possibility. His view is that the only way Vistana and Hyatt owners will gain access to MVC properties is through buying DC points or through II exchanges.

His main focus was to sell us more DC points and indicated that the cost will only go up. He indicated that Vistana and Hyatt are selling an equivalent level of points at approximately $18 per point whereas MVC is selling them at $13.96, not taking into account discounts at higher point purchase levels. So, he surmised that MVC points will continue to rise in cost to match Vistana and Hyatt levels. Again, speculation. Certainly an effort to pursuade potential purchasers to buy points now rather than wait as the price increases.

Obviously, nobody knows exactly how things will develop, but they are very enthusiastic about where things are headed. I’m sure they see this as a huge opportunity for increased sales opportunities. 

Best regards.

Mike


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## steve1000

Interesting. We are attending a sales presentation tomorrow - will see if its the same spin.


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## jhac007

steve1000 said:


> As an owner in each of Marriott, VSE, and Hyatt (as well as some other systems) it has been interesting and sometimes challenging learning the rules and the ins and outs of each system. My weeks are a mix of developer-purchases and resale weeks. I am quite curious how the systems will ultimately be integrated. Not sure how it will all come together but I expect that VAC will come out best - may be an opportune time to buy some VAC stock.



Do you have the good feeling that with your diverse portfolio you are in an excellent position to be a big winner in the acquisition?  I would tend to think already owning Marriott, VSE and Hyatt is to your advantage no matter what VAC evolves into!


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## suzannesimon

GregT said:


> Kudos to Marriott - the timeshare division has gone from being an anchor in 2009 to being a formidable enterprise in 2019.  This will no longer be the DC that we are all accustomed to, this is a much bigger organization now and attention will be elsewhere.
> 
> It does suggest some type of cross pollination across the systems because of the Mexico and Caribbean properties.
> 
> Interesting to see and congrats again to Marriott - a stunning transformation.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg
> 
> PS- we should be prepared for the sales pitch - “if you want access to the Starwood properties, you need to use Trust Points”.  Irrespective of whether it’s true, I expect to hear it.



The salespeople at  both Westin and Marriott have been inferring for that last couple years that Marriott and Starwood have merged.  Unless you call them on it, they will let you believe they were talking about timeshares.  It will be interesting to hear the spin they put on this, long before anything is finalized.


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## Quilter

Marathoner said:


> Yes, lets speculate for the fun of it and to predict the future of timeshares.
> 
> I believe we can all agree on the mission statement of the new Marriott Corporation: Maximize Revenue Growth.  Every other consideration is immaterial in a capitalistic environment.
> 
> . . .
> 
> So, I expect that we will see some legacy buyers happy with the merger and some unhappy.  All will pay more and, to be fair, offered more as a result of the merger.



From the very first post:

*Compelling Strategic and Financial Benefits*

. . .

*Diversifies revenues and expands margins with significant contribution from recurring and fee-based revenue streams: *The Company will benefit from premier exchange networks, which provide incremental, high-margin, recurring, fee-based revenue streams. ILG's Interval International, Vistana Signature Network, Hyatt Residence Club and Trading Places International exchange networks will comprise nearly two million members and over 3,200 resorts.


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## suzannesimon

RLS50 said:


> If you have any interest in Cancun, the Westin Lagunamar is outstanding.   We also spent time at the JW Marriott in Cancun (including Club 91 access) and while we do enjoy the JW Marriott property, and it has some nice features, overall we think WLR is better.  In my opinion WLR is one of the best planned and best laid out properties anywhere.



I have a week at Westin Lagunamar and it is my favorite timeshare.  Some of the  other Vistana properties - Harborside and Kierland Villas, possibly others, have 2 full 1-bedroom lockoffs which are better than the studio-1 bedroom layout.  One downside though is that Vistana doesn't have ovens which I wish they did so I could make a turkey at Thanksgiving.


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## controller1

suzannesimon said:


> One downside though is that Vistana doesn't have ovens which I wish they did so I could make a turkey at Thanksgiving.



Perhaps the units you discussed but your statement, as a blanket statement, is incorrect.  Westin Ka’anapali has ovens while Westin Ka’anapali North does not. The newest resort, Westin Nanea, has ovens.  Also, it is my understanding that in the next update to the North property ovens will be installed as that has been a major owner complaint.


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## Quilter

Well here's my first reaction. . .Make friends.   

Hello to all my Vistana and Hyatt friends.   Want to come over for a cuppa?

If getting into these new options means buying points I'm planning to stay with the MVC properties that are near and dear to my heart.   

The sales department's mission is to make you think you NEED to buy.   At this stage I'm not feeling compelled to buy anything and I'm confident I'll be able to vacation just fine without doing so.


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## controller1

Quilter said:


> Well here's my first reaction. . .Make friends.
> 
> Hello to all my Vistana and Hyatt friends.   Want to come over for a cuppa?
> 
> If getting into these new options means buying points I'm planning to stay with the MVC properties that are near and dear to my heart.
> 
> The sales department's mission is to make you think you NEED to buy.   At this stage I'm not feeling compelled to buy anything and I'm confident I'll be able to vacation just fine without doing so.



I agree! I bought Vistana because they have the resorts in the locations I desired. At the time of each purchase, I was fully aware I would not have access to other developers’ properties. I can’t imagine spending any significant amount of money to now facilitate that.


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## Superchief

jeepie said:


> Superchief, you may be right. Will you be selling your interests now? Just curious. Cheers.


I recently retired and had planned to start using most of my weeks and points (all MVC) to travel more now that I have time. Therefore I don't currently plan to sell my interests in the short term. However, I'm more concerned that reasons that I had acquired my MVC portfolio will diminish as program changes are made by this new monopoly. Similar to Marriott Hotels, the value of my 'points' will likely decline substantially over the next several years and I will not be able to afford to keep my portfolio to enjoy travel now that I have the time to do it. 

My current plan is to make the most of my travel opportunities over the next 3 year with the expectation that MVC timeshare experiences will diminish in the future. I plan to use most of my MR Points for the same reason.


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## Old Hickory

My wife texted me to ask how this will impact us...I texted back... about 50 new properties to check out.

You guys (TUGGer's) figure out how to best use our new system and properties.   And I'll wait for your instructions.

Cheers!


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## iqmavin

So many unknowns at this time regarding the acquisition of ILG.  We own in both worlds and love the quality of the Vistana properties (I don’t care what they call it the quality of the units are better than some Marriotts.  We love Kierland, Palm Desert and Kanapali.  We’ve got some decissions to make regardless of the acquisition.

Just completed one of the least stressful presentations at Marriott in Marbella.  Our sales Associate, Clifford, was pleasant straight forward and made us what we felt was one of the best offers we’ve ever scene by a developer.  As urgent Marriott owners we we offered the following:
1) Membership in Destination Club at the executive level. (We opted not to join when the program was first implemented) Our current property has a value of 4950 points.
2) Two bedroom property here in silver week with a value of 2225 points.
3) maintenance fee was about $1300/year.
4) Regular price: $21990: $09.9/point; current owner discount price: $14235: 06.4/point;Special promotional price: $12,200: 05.5/point.
5) 10% down due within 15 days.
6) One year financing at 5%

This seems like a very good deal.  I’m not sure I can buy after market points at that price point.

Anyone have any insights into what after market points sell for? 

What’s the real value of Executive membership?

Also wondering if it’s a good idea to switch to destination club now whether we purchase or not?

We also own two weeks in VST, Palm Desert (53,600) and St John (196,000). So we are points rich in that regard.  

Any thoughts appreciated.


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## iqmavin

Oops I had decimal point in wrong spot on points cost.....should be dollars not cents.


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## Pathways

iqmavin said:


> Just completed one of the least stressful presentations at Marriott in Marbella.  Our sales Associate, Clifford, was pleasant straight forward and made us what we felt was one of the best offers we’ve ever scene by a developer.  As urgent Marriott owners we we offered the following:
> 1) Membership in Destination Club at the executive level. (We opted not to join when the program was first implemented) Our current property has a value of 4950 points.
> 2) Two bedroom property here in silver week with a value of 2225 points.
> 3) maintenance fee was about $1300/year.
> 4) Regular price: $21990: $09.9/point; current owner discount price: $14235: 06.4/point;Special promotional price: $12,200: 05.5/point.
> 5) 10% down due within 15 days.
> 6) One year financing at 5%



I take it the property you are bringing in to DC is pre 2010? (plus the Marbella silver)


----------



## JIMinNC

iqmavin said:


> So many unknowns at this time regarding the acquisition of ILG.  We own in both worlds and love the quality of the Vistana properties (I don’t care what they call it the quality of the units are better than some Marriotts.  We love Kierland, Palm Desert and Kanapali.  We’ve got some decissions to make regardless of the acquisition.
> 
> Just completed one of the least stressful presentations at Marriott in Marbella.  Our sales Associate, Clifford, was pleasant straight forward and made us what we felt was one of the best offers we’ve ever scene by a developer.  As urgent Marriott owners we we offered the following:
> 1) Membership in Destination Club at the executive level. (We opted not to join when the program was first implemented) Our current property has a value of 4950 points.
> 2) Two bedroom property here in silver week with a value of 2225 points.
> 3) maintenance fee was about $1300/year.
> 4) Regular price: $21990: $09.9/point; current owner discount price: $14235: 06.4/point;Special promotional price: $12,200: 05.5/point.
> 5) 10% down due within 15 days.
> 6) One year financing at 5%
> 
> This seems like a very good deal.  I’m not sure I can buy after market points at that price point.
> 
> Anyone have any insights into what after market points sell for?
> 
> What’s the real value of Executive membership?
> 
> Also wondering if it’s a good idea to switch to destination club now whether we purchase or not?
> 
> We also own two weeks in VST, Palm Desert (53,600) and St John (196,000). So we are points rich in that regard.
> 
> Any thoughts appreciated.



Seems like a very efficient way to get to Executive. You are correct that $5.50 per point is cheaper than what it would cost on the secondary resale market. With Marriott activation fees on resale points, you would likely pay at least $6 to $7/point on the after market. Just be sure to verify the maintenance fee on the Silver Marbella week and make sure it is not significantly higher than the $0.553 maintenance fee on DC Trust Points. If the maintenance fee on your silver week is the $1239 that is shown in the 2018 maintenance fee thread, that is $0.557 per point for the 2225 points, almost the same as Trust points. So this would indeed be a sweet deal to get 2225 points for $12.2K and only a $0.56 maintenance fee per point. One of the best I've seen reported.

In my opinion, the real value of Executive is access to booking shorter than 7 night stays at 13 months out, plus 13 month access to the Ritz properties. Getting to Executive cost effectively is our main goal as well.

And just to clarify something you said in your next to last line...you do not "switch" to the Destination Club when you enroll your existing week. When you enroll, you can still use your week as you always have at your home resort or trade it in II. All enrollment does is ADD the option to exchange it for DC points in any given year and use points instead. One year you may decide to elect for points, one year you may decide to use your home resort, and another year you an decide to deposit your week in II and trade.


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## Steve A

I have been a Marriott timeshare owner since 2001. I’ve seen lots of changes. I’ve never drank the Marriott Kool-Aid. Let’s be clear, changes in the system are designed to make the Marriotts’ richer. Any benefits to us are purely by happenstance.


----------



## Steve Fatula

iqmavin said:


> So many unknowns at this time regarding the acquisition of ILG.  We own in both worlds and love the quality of the Vistana properties (I don’t care what they call it the quality of the units are better than some Marriotts.  We love Kierland, Palm Desert and Kanapali.  We’ve got some decissions to make regardless of the acquisition.
> 
> Just completed one of the least stressful presentations at Marriott in Marbella.  Our sales Associate, Clifford, was pleasant straight forward and made us what we felt was one of the best offers we’ve ever scene by a developer.  As urgent Marriott owners we we offered the following:
> 1) Membership in Destination Club at the executive level. (We opted not to join when the program was first implemented) Our current property has a value of 4950 points.
> 2) Two bedroom property here in silver week with a value of 2225 points.
> 3) maintenance fee was about $1300/year.
> 4) Regular price: $21990: $09.9/point; current owner discount price: $14235: 06.4/point;Special promotional price: $12,200: 05.5/point.



If I understand correctly, you have a pre 2010 week. That week is not currently enrolled. There have been offers lately to be able to enroll such weeks for free. That being the case, what they are essentially selling you is a silver resale week, and, enrolling it. For a silver resale week at Marbella, that's very expensive. But, if you feel the value is there for the points aspect, go for it. Understand you could always enroll your week for free, and then merely purchase points on the resale market as you need them for 65c/pt or so. The gain would be no upfront money at all. The loss would be no executive level. Executive has a few perks like using points very cheaply within 30 days of the stay, and, the ability to often arrange for less than a weeks stay. I agree with JimInNC that the per point cost is very cheap.


----------



## JIMinNC

Quilter said:


> Well here's my first reaction. . .Make friends.
> 
> Hello to all my Vistana and Hyatt friends.   Want to come over for a cuppa?
> 
> If getting into these new options means buying points I'm planning to stay with the MVC properties that are near and dear to my heart.
> 
> The sales department's mission is to make you think you NEED to buy.   At this stage I'm not feeling compelled to buy anything and I'm confident I'll be able to vacation just fine without doing so.



While I think it's way too early to really speculate on what we might do as a result of the merger, since we have no idea what the post-merger landscape will even look like, or what offers the new company might make to participate in the expanded network, I will take the opposite side of this question as a different perspective.

Ever since we bought our resale Maui Ocean Club week a few months ago, I've said if we were ever offered one of the promotions where a points purchase allowed us to enroll any previously un-enrollable week(s), I would be really tempted to do so. If, such a purchase would *also* give us access to some sort of an expanded exchange network that includes the Westin and Hyatt locations, that would make me even more interested. Being able to alternate between MOC and the Westin resorts on Maui, having access to the Westin in Princeville, the new Westin in Los Cabos, the Westin St John, Harbourside Atlantis, the Hyatts in Key West, Carmel, and Sedona, among other locations, would almost guarantee that we need a lot more points than we have today. However I slice it and dice it, if I need more points, it's going to cost me money, so the important thing becomes "what is my all-in cost per point?" If the new VAC would ever put an offer on the table that would enroll any un-enrollable weeks I might own at the time, plus give me more points to spend at Marriott, Westin, and Hyatt resorts, and if that resulted in a blended cost per point of the new trust points plus the enrolled points of less than about $7/point or so with an attractive MF/point cost, I would be hard-pressed to turn that down. If it were as attractive as the per point costs quoted just above in post #73 by iqmavin, I would be really excited.

Obviously, the devil will be in the details when and if some sort of an expanded exchange program is announced, but given that it's likely that any such program will be points-based rather than weeks-based, I think this will make owning/controlling an adequate number of points more important.


----------



## Pathways

Steve Fatula said:


> If I understand correctly, you have a pre 2010 week. That week is not currently enrolled. There have been offers lately to be able to enroll such weeks for free. That being the case, what they are essentially selling you is a silver resale week, and, enrolling it. For a silver resale week at Marbella, that's very expensive.



I guess that's where I was going - if you are only buying the silver week for points, I would consider not just the buy-in but also the exit.  That Marbella silver is almost a give-away to unload, whereas the resale points have (as of today) only a 3.00/p loss. (B/C of the junk fees)


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward

I can speculate as well as the next person. . . 

Here's my most likely scenario, and why.
A brand new "super DC" trust/club. Access to this club will be by joining with your points, and/or existing non-point weeks. There will be a fee to join, and there will be a skim. The "Super DC" will have weeks from all systems in it, whereas the existing points based systems for all prior groups will only have access to that old system's pool. As people join the new "Super DC", their "ownership" fraction will transfer to the new "Super DC", shrinking the old ownership pool. For early seeding, I suspect that post 2010 Marriott weeks will be allowed to join, probably in a restrictive manner, with equivalent deals for the other merged timeshare groups.

Why.
Trying to merge all the disparate groups, from a legal sense, would be a nightmarish task. Better to start a new super pool that all the old point pools could feed into. That way each system could have a custom conversion deal, as best fits the legal landscape. Since most point owners don't have a one-to-one ownership correspondence with the underlying weeks, that should not be a problem. With shrinking old point pools and therefore shrinking inventory, there will be both a carrot (all system access) and the stick (shrinking old pools) to convince people to join the new "Super DC". Once set up, all new sales will be for the "Super DC" only.

This is all speculation, of course. But it would provide a clear path to the future, and an easier way to incorporate new systems as they are acquired.


----------



## l0410z

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> I can speculate as well as the next person. . .
> 
> Here's my most likely scenario, and why.
> For early seeding, I suspect that post 2010 Marriott weeks will be allowed to join, probably in a restrictive manner, with equivalent deals for the other merged timeshare groups.
> .



I believe you are 100% correct.

Has there been a recent posted update to the deeded weeks in the trust?  I think you still find that a significant majority of the inventory for platinum and "valuable" gold  weeks are still outside the trust.  Whatever strategy is used to consolidate or rationalize the point systems, you will need more inventory if that strategy includes access to Marriott timeshares.  I think  that there will be a line drawn in the sand that will give legacy status to all weeks pre that line.  This will again require a fee but not require the purchase of additional DP's.   It will be the only way to get additional Marriott timeshare inventory.  The fee will also provide a short term cash inflow.

If Marriott is still not exercising RORF at the Grand Chateau and I can convince my wife, I might look to pick up an EOY 3 BR.  The price is worth the risk.  If they do not allow enrollment,  I have been very happy (maybe lucky) with breaking up and trading my EOY 2 BR so the risk in minimized.


----------



## Superchief

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> I can speculate as well as the next person. . .
> 
> Here's my most likely scenario, and why.
> A brand new "super DC" trust/club. Access to this club will be by joining with your points, and/or existing non-point weeks. There will be a fee to join, and there will be a skim. The "Super DC" will have weeks from all systems in it, whereas the existing points based systems for all prior groups will only have access to that old system's pool. As people join the new "Super DC", their "ownership" fraction will transfer to the new "Super DC", shrinking the old ownership pool. For early seeding, I suspect that post 2010 Marriott weeks will be allowed to join, probably in a restrictive manner, with equivalent deals for the other merged timeshare groups.


This is one of my fears. If we think there is a 'black box' inventory process going on now with just the MVC resorts and points, imagine what will happen in a 'super DC' trust/club. There will be no transparency regarding how our owned weeks and points are being utilized. Any equity that we have built under the legacy weeks and MVC points programs will be diminished by the overwhelming number of 'new' members. I bought my timeshares more as vacation condos and the new program is more like a network of hotels.  This new company will also basically control the industry, so what incentive do they have to keep owners happy.


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## VacationForever

I really would like all 3 systems be kept separate.  We paid quite alot to get us to Presidential level and it was a careful decision to go with Marriott as opposed to Hyatt and Vistana as we like Marriott resorts and system much more than the other 2 brands, with no offence intended to owners of the other 2 brands. Marriott DC system meets our needs.

I will be very upset if owners of the other 2 systems have easy / cheap access to Marriott DC system or if a super DC is created, rendering the current DC system inferior with reduced access to existing inventory.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward

Superchief said:


> This is one of my fears. If we think there is a 'black box' inventory process going on now with just the MVC resorts and points, imagine what will happen in a 'super DC' trust/club. There will be no transparency regarding how our owned weeks and points are being utilized. Any equity that we have built under the legacy weeks and MVC points programs will be diminished by the overwhelming number of 'new' members. I bought my timeshares more as vacation condos and the new program is more like a network of hotels.  This new company will also basically control the industry, so what incentive do they have to keep owners happy.



I don't want to sound like sour grapes, Superchief, but that is why I sold back my Marriotts a few years ago (back to Marriott). The MVC system was being evolved into a pre-paid hotel network. (with condos instead of rooms)

Now if prepaid hotel condos are what "floats your boat", then by all means look forward to the changes. If not, this system is steadily becoming an albatross. I went to a HGVC affiliate. . .


----------



## mariawolf

So I own a fixed Harborside week 52 one bedroom and week 1 two bedroom lock off—never trade due to high fees
Right now Atlantis hotel run by Marriott only has 100 rooms per day for Marriott Rewards members-this May have changed recently—but my son is platinum due to work travel and was told that
Bought gold season Frenchman’s cove and love it there so last trip bought into vacation club and got gold for life as rewards member
I actually like the points idea and bought for the  Spain beach resorts so hope that is still reasonable in summer-except air fare—because grandchildren now in school week 1 and week 52 Harborside is too crazy


----------



## JIMinNC

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> I don't want to sound like sour grapes, Superchief, but that is why I sold back my Marriotts a few years ago (back to Marriott). The MVC system was being evolved into a pre-paid hotel network. (with condos instead of rooms)
> 
> Now if prepaid hotel condos are what "floats your boat", then by all means look forward to the changes. If not, this system is steadily becoming an albatross. I went to a HGVC affiliate. . .



I think Ralph's point here very succinctly defines why some people hate the points systems and others of us love them. Those who favor the week-based timeshare model and want a more traditional timeshare experience strongly favor the cost efficiency of the traditional timeshare product and don't care about or need the other things the points systems bring to the table. Those of us who want a more flexible system and are willing to pay more for that flexibility - and are willing to "pre-pay" for ongoing access to that network - tend to prefer the "prepaid hotel condo" approach that points offer. We are primarily in this latter category, so we are intrigued by the potential this new combination might offer us, but we also see a place for traditional deeded week(s) in places we want to visit repeatedly.


----------



## BocaBoy

vikingsholm said:


> Lots of cynicism and cautions here about how we're going to get hosed, it will take forever to devise a workable merged system, blah blah blah.
> 
> Sorry, I'm not buying into that.
> 
> I started as a real skeptic of the DC system. As a Marriott Lake Tahoe Grand Residence legacy quarter share weeks owner, they took awhile longer to figure out how to incorporate us into the DC system, because we own a specific unit for each of 13 weeks per year (one per month). But they did it, and it worked.
> 
> At first, I thought the skim would be a real rip off from what I'd read on TUG, and I didn't understand that buying into the system didn't commit me to enrolling weeks, but just offered another option, fully flexible every year. Now, I mix use of our weeks, occupying our favored weeks, renting out some weeks, trading in 5 different exchange systems, and electing weeks for points stays of 1 day to 2 weeks or more at Marriott and Ritz timeshares all over. It is extremely flexible, and they let us buy into the DC system with our 13 legacy weeks at the standard multi week rate. It has really enhanced our overall use of our Marriott timeshares. I barely notice the skim, and get pretty much what I want with sufficient lead time.
> 
> I think they really want to make this work well, and become the premier high end timeshare system with satisfied customers. I also believe they will find a way to make it easy to use, minimizing multiple system confusions, and overcome any legal or logistical issues that some think may make it difficult to incorporate the new systems. These will all be a part of Marriott now, regardless of their branding. Marriott knows how to manage, and I'm relieved that they are the lead on this and not ILG, or Diamond taking over.
> 
> Sure, they want to make money, but I think they'll have a whole new market of eager customers once those potential buyers find out what will be available through this system. I think Marriott will do it faster than many here seem to imagine - they've been through it before. They incorporated Ritz and Grand Residences relatively smoothly, with different levels of access for Ritz based on number of points owned, and I see the same with Vistana and Hyatt. They've probably been thinking about it for quite awhile already.


I agree with this.  Several posts in this thread are quite antagonistic, looking for bad motives and predicting many negatives going forward.  Seems a lot like the "consensus" when MVCI was spun off, and again when DC was introduced.  I did not agree with either "consensus" at the time.  And not surprisingly, both the spin off and the DC program have been very successful.  With that track record, I am willing to give MVCI the benefit of the doubt as they deal with this acquisition.  It is even possible that they will not merge systems at all.  Time will tell, but I think it will turn out to be a plus for most current owners.


----------



## ilene13

We have owned Marriott timeshares since the late 1980’s when Marriott took over Harbour Pointe from the original developer.  I have seen more changes that the majority of owners.  Some I agree with, some I don’t.  I am willing to give Marriott the benefit of the doubt at this point.  Too many people are making speculations that may never come to fruition so it’s not worth aggravating myself over.  For a point of information we are Chairman’s Club and our timeshares were all purchased from the developers because 35-40 years ago there was not a big secondary market!!


----------



## Colt Seavers

vikingsholm said:


> Lots of cynicism and cautions here about how we're going to get hosed, it will take forever to devise a workable merged system, blah blah blah.
> 
> Sorry, I'm not buying into that.
> 
> I started as a real skeptic of the DC system. As a Marriott Lake Tahoe Grand Residence legacy quarter share weeks owner, they took awhile longer to figure out how to incorporate us into the DC system, because we own a specific unit for each of 13 weeks per year (one per month). But they did it, and it worked.



I agree and I think your comparison with the DC program is right on point.  The idea that Marriott would buy ILG just to devalue the ownership of its current customers is hard to accept.

When the DC first rolled out I was hesitant to enroll, mainly due to the amount of the enrollment fee.  What bothered be most was the way they were marketing the DC as if we needed to purchase something new or lose the Marriott trade ability of our legacy week which was our main motivation for purchasing it.  In the end we waited a few years, continuing to trade in Interval, until the encore offer came along and we were able to enroll for next to nothing.

MVC just put in the legal and technological effort to build the trust and the DC reservation system so I think they will just begin rolling the new brands into the existing trust once they have determined appropriate values for each property.  My post above about $0 trades to Hyatt and Westin was mostly wishful thinking, but I also would not be surprised if that came to fruition as it would motivate more enrollment and thus increase the guaranteed club due revenue.


----------



## SueDonJ

BocaBoy said:


> I agree with this.  Several posts in this thread are quite antagonistic, looking for bad motives and predicting many negatives going forward.  Seems a lot like the "consensus" when MVCI was spun off, and again when DC was introduced.  I did not agree with either "consensus" at the time.  And not surprisingly, both the spin off and the DC program have been very successful.  With that track record, I am willing to give MVCI the benefit of the doubt as they deal with this acquisition.  It is even possible that they will not merge systems at all.  Time will tell, but I think it will turn out to be a plus for most current owners.



I agree. Not all of the changes that MVC has gone through since we first bought in have been more-beneficial-than-not, but at each point we've been able to use our ownership in ways that we never would have expected then and fully appreciate now. Wait and see is the right approach to this, and I'm expecting that just like with the DC introduction many of the initial negative opinions will change over time.

From the DC inception I've thought that the DC Exchange Company was set up perfectly to give MVW options to get pieces of the other systems' pies.  I didn't necessarily expect that they'd actually acquire the companies to do that but I'm not unhappy that's what they're doing.  My first reaction is that MVW can and may keep the different timeshare companies separate from each other under the MVW umbrella for quite some time, but they'll take incremental steps at integration to allow cross-company exchanges with some limited favorability - existing Weeks ownerships via II that they're acquiring and existing Points ownerships via the DC Exchange Company, with the possibility that the two exchange companies will be merged.  Later will come cross-company enrollment options that mostly conform to the DC model, and finally some rebranding of properties similar to what Marriott, Int'l is doing with the hotel properties following that Starwood acquisition.

I may be right, may be wrong, but no doubt these are exciting times once again! (And I'd be lying if I said this isn't making my OCD skyrocket with what it means for TUG moderation.  )


----------



## jme

SueDonJ said:


> I may be right, may be wrong, but no doubt these are exciting times once again! (And I'd be lying if I said this isn't making my OCD skyrocket with what it means for TUG moderation.  )



Everything in moderation, Susan........


----------



## BigMac

Woops - 4 law firms have already given notice they will "scrutinize' the deal between ILG and VAC  for possible breaches of fiduciary responsibility by the ILG Board of Directors. Don't know if this is typical whenever an acquisition is announced but let's hope it does not lead to prolonged litigation.

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/ILG?p=ILG


----------



## VacationForever

I am wondering aloud whether this will pass the anti-trust scrutiny.


----------



## chemteach

SunandFun83 said:


> Hey Marathoner,
> 
> People are speculating that every property gets assigned Destination Point value.  I think we go back to 2011 and the push to "Enroll your Weeks"  If you own Vistana, Hyatt, other II properties or points will you have to "Enroll your weeks" and buy destination points to play.  The big money is to sell more points and enroll weeks.
> 
> I think VAC may be legally bound to let Hyatt and Vistana owners keep their rights inside their own systems.  But, if you own Hyatt will you have to pay to enroll your weeks and add points if you want to play in the Marriott system?  FYI, Hyatt is trying to role out a point system with a cost to enroll.  Hyatt also has a big advantage for II exchanges, a Hyatt diamond week is 2,200 points and a 2br exchange only costs 1,300 points.



Unfortunately for Vistana purchasers, the staroptions associated with a unit are not deeded, and Vistana could change the system at their whim.  Hopefully, they won't, but they could...


----------



## dioxide45

BigMac said:


> Woops - 4 law firms have already given notice they will "scrutinize' the deal between ILG and VAC  for possible breaches of fiduciary responsibility by the ILG Board of Directors. Don't know if this is typical whenever an acquisition is announced but let's hope it does not lead to prolonged litigation.
> 
> https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/ILG?p=ILG


The deal has to go before the shareholders for a vote. If they don't like it, can't they vote no?



chemteach said:


> Unfortunately for Vistana purchasers, the staroptions associated with a unit are not deeded, and Vistana could change the system at their whim.  Hopefully, they won't, but they could...


While they aren't on the individual owns deed. There are 5 resorts where the club membership is written in to the recorded condo documents. They could wipe out the VSN program and say it is being replaced by DC to try to lock out resale owners, however an argument could be made that DC is the new club. It would provide an easy and perhaps cheap entry point in to DC through those mandatory resorts, of which only two have ROFR.


----------



## controller1

BigMac said:


> Woops - 4 law firms have already given notice they will "scrutinize' the deal between ILG and VAC  for possible breaches of fiduciary responsibility by the ILG Board of Directors. Don't know if this is typical whenever an acquisition is announced but let's hope it does not lead to prolonged litigation.
> 
> https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/ILG?p=ILG



That is very typical in all mergers. There will be other firms to join the four initial firms.  The firms will solicit ILG shareholders to join in various suits.  The only winners will be the law firms.


----------



## nuwermj

VacationForever said:


> I am wondering aloud whether this will pass the anti-trust scrutiny.



I think it will very likely pass. The only way scrutiny would be made is if the anti-trust division's definition of the industry is restricted to hotel branded timeshares. This is a very narrow definition. In a broader market, this merger will not be seen as lessening competition.


----------



## FunInTheSunForever

With all of this going on, would it still be a good time to buy a Marriott or Westin resale week? Or Marriott DC points? Or would it be better to wait until we see how things work out? I am worried about overpaying especially for a Vistana mandatory resort with Star Options if they might go away.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Our base strategy is to continue to use/rent out our Westin Kaanapali OF (use rent to pay for another TS rental elsewhere) and TRADE using our HGVC system properties.

If VAC offers an incentive package at no/low cost to enroll in DC with reasonable MF while maintaining our Vistana Mandatory resale rights and deed, we might go for it.  Of course I hope StarOption trades will still exist.

IMHO...I have been trying to follow this discussion on DC trust points - it's complicated! HGVC seems to be LOT simpler with all deeds automatically enrolled in their points program - no trust points which can be devalued or MF shell games.  It is a very nice system - I wish it had more locations, but they are actively expanding. HGVC has also proven that they can operate quality resorts with reasonable MF.

Although access to Marriott and Hyatt would be nice, it might simply be too expensive and risky. To incent us to move from this position, VAC DC would have to offer much more than we can get from today with our HGVC trades and depositing our Westin week via II or another exchange.

Will invest in HGVC but hold off on incremental investment in VAC until the cards play out unless they offer a deal we cannot refuse - this will take a few years. YMMV, if we had a Vistana trader, we would probably approach this differently but we purchased WKORVN to use.  I imagine that many Hyatt Residence owners on Kaanapali will approach the same way.


----------



## iqmavin

Yes it is prior to 2010. Also have a mandatory property that I just purchased.  We’re going to join destinations club as it is now free.  Since we currently have 246,000 Star options and we aren’t sure what will happen in the relationship of Star options to Marriott points I think we’ll probably pass on the great deal they offered us.  Our sales associate said something I didn’t fully grasp.....40 fo 1 ratio Marriott points to Star options? That would make sense as our St Johnproperty is 196,000 options.  
 That woul translate to 4900 marriott points?  The two properties might be comparable.

I also avoid the  Kool-aid when possible.


Steve Fatula said:


> If I understand correctly, you have a pre 2010 week. That week is not currently enrolled. There have been offers lately to be able to enroll such weeks for free. That being the case, what they are essentially selling you is a silver resale week, and, enrolling it. For a silver resale week at Marbella, that's very expensive. But, if you feel the value is there for the points aspect, go for it. Understand you could always enroll your week for free, and then merely purchase points on the resale market as you need them for 65c/pt or so. The gain would be no upfront money at all. The loss would be no executive level. Executive has a few perks like using points very cheaply within 30 days of the stay, and, the ability to often arrange for less than a weeks stay. I agree with JimInNC that the per point cost is very cheap.


----------



## kds4

iqmavin said:


> Yes it is prior to 2010. Also have a mandatory property that I just purchased.  We’re going to join destinations club as it is now free.  Since we currently have 246,000 Star options and we aren’t sure what will happen in the relationship of Star options to Marriott points I think we’ll probably pass on the great deal they offered us.  Our sales associate said something I didn’t fully grasp.....40 fo 1 ratio Marriott points to Star options? That would make sense as our St Johnproperty is 196,000 options.
> That woul translate to 4900 marriott points?  The two properties might be comparable.
> 
> I also avoid the  Kool-aid when possible.



There is a 40:1 ratio when converting MVCI Destination Club Points (DPs) you own into Marriott Rewards Points (MRPs) that will be deposited into your MR account. To my knowledge, there is no published conversion ratio for Star Options to Destination Club points, at least not yet.


----------



## bizaro86

kds4 said:


> There is a 40:1 ratio when converting MVCI Destination Club Points (DPs) you own into Marriott Rewards Points (MRPs) that will be deposited into your MR account. To my knowledge, there is no published conversion ratio for Star Options to Destination Club points, at least not yet.



They can't even talk about that until after they merge into one company, so anything will be announced well after the merger I would think.


----------



## dioxide45

kds4 said:


> There is a 40:1 ratio when converting MVCI Destination Club Points (DPs) you own into Marriott Rewards Points (MRPs) that will be deposited into your MR account. To my knowledge, there is no published conversion ratio for Star Options to Destination Club points, at least not yet.


Correct. 40:1 is just someone guessing. I am guessing is may be closer to 30:1. Though still a guess. I also don't expect them to do StarOption to DC point conversion except for those that would own in a Vistana Flex product. I suspect for weeks owners, they will assign a certain number of DC points based on resort, view, season and unit size.


----------



## icydog

WJS said:


> _*"There is no good reason to start multiple threads in forums for resort systems that are not even involved."*_ Really? I entirely disagree with you. I believe that this topic has a place in each of the places where it sits, or once sat.
> 
> This merger has widespread implications, and as an owner with Diamond (not by choice) and DVC (and several other developers), I can say with certainty, that this merger has implications on both brands, one being the opportunity for one or the other to escape or be evicted from their current exchange company relationship. Unfortunately, because of your short sightedness, you have chosen to deny TUG members, who are DVC or Diamond owners/enthusiasts the opportunity to talk about/rally for a defection, in the context of MVW's acquisition of ILG.



I've taken my post down. My question has been asked and answered.


----------



## dougp26364

I bet when all is said and done, for owners who want to play across all brands, they come up with something that involves a joiner fee, just like they did for weeks owners wanting to play in the DC points pool.


----------



## iqmavin

kds4 said:


> There is a 40:1 ratio when converting MVCI Destination Club Points (DPs) you own into Marriott Rewards Points (MRPs) that will be deposited into your MR account. To my knowledge, there is no published conversion ratio for Star Options to Destination Club points, at least not yet.


Ok that makes sense. It never seems to me to make sense to trade DC points or SPG options into rewards points.  Don’t get the bang for your buck even if the 5th night is free.  

I haven’t figured out how to leverage that yet.


----------



## TravelTime

chemteach said:


> Unfortunately for Vistana purchasers, the staroptions associated with a unit are not deeded, and Vistana could change the system at their whim.  Hopefully, they won't, but they could...



I am a Marriott owner and a Westin owner. I am excited about the upcoming changes and the possibility of combining all three programs into one. I think I would be happier having my deeded weeks plus the option to elect to convert to DC points. I have no idea what they will do it but I suspect Marriott will be fair. I do have a question. On the Vistana thread, many Vistana owners are upset with the possibility that StarOptions could be converted to DC Points and/or that the new VOC may not allow resale weeks to transfer to new owners with StarOptions (if the Vistana program is completely dismantled). Many people there are adamant that this is impossible and would cause a huge lawsuit. You mentioned here that: “staroptions associated with a unit are not deeded, and Vistana could change the system at their whim.“ Can you or others explain this more?


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> I am a Marriott owner and a Westin owner. I am excited about the upcoming changes and the possibility of combining all three programs into one. I think I would be happier having my deeded weeks plus the option to elect to convert to DC points. I have no idea what they will do it but I suspect Marriott will be fair. I do have a question. On the Vistana thread, many Vistana owners are upset with the possibility that StarOptions could be converted to DC Points and/or that the new VOC may not allow resale weeks to transfer to new owners with StarOptions (if the Vistana program in completely dismantled). Many people there are adamant that this is impossible and would cause a huge lawsuit. You mentioned here that: “staroptions associated with a unit are not deeded, and Vistana could change the system at their whim.“ Can you or others explain this more?


Vistana can change the VSN program on a whim. They could eliminate it all together. The issue at mandatory resorts is that as long as a club exists, all owners (developer and resale) are members of The Club. If Marriott/Vistana tries to just re-brand the VSN as DC, then DC becomes the new Club and resale owners, previous and future are also members of DC. DC has tried hard to keep people from buying resale week out of the DC program unless they are willing to also make a big developer purchase.


----------



## TravelTime

iqmavin said:


> Yes it is prior to 2010. Also have a mandatory property that I just purchased.  We’re going to join destinations club as it is now free.  Since we currently have 246,000 Star options and we aren’t sure what will happen in the relationship of Star options to Marriott points I think we’ll probably pass on the great deal they offered us.  Our sales associate said something I didn’t fully grasp.....40 fo 1 ratio Marriott points to Star options? That would make sense as our St Johnproperty is 196,000 options.
> That woul translate to 4900 marriott points?  The two properties might be comparable.
> 
> I also avoid the  Kool-aid when possible.



What do you mean when you say it is free now to join the DC? Is that only for your pre-2010 week?


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> Vistana can change the VSN program on a whim. They could eliminate it all together. The issue at mandatory resorts is that as long as a club exists, all owners (developer and resale) are members of The Club. If Marriott/Vistana tries to just re-brand the VSN as DC, then DC becomes the new Club and resale owners, previous and future are also members of DC. DC has tried hard to keep people from buying resale week out of the DC program unless they are willing to also make a big developer purchase.



I am hoping they might convert my 176K SO for WKOVN-OF to an equivalent number of DC Points so I can either use my deeded week or trade within the new program’s 100+ timeshare resorts. The problem with StarOptions now is I own one of the best Vistana properties so I would rarely exchange within the VSE network unless I could get another Maui OF 2 bedroom or I could go to WSJ. If I could get enough DC Points to exchange my WKOVR-N OF for an equivalent Hawaii or Caribbean OF 2 bedroom, then I think I would be better off if Marriott gets rid of Star Options and converts my Star Options into DC Points. That would thoroughly enhance my like-for-like trading options. The only open issue is whether Marriott would take away the ability to resell mandatory resorts with DC Points, if it gets rid of StarOptions. The down side here is it may devalue the resale value of the mandatory resorts. However, if they roll it out right, maybe things would be fine. The VSE mandatory resorts are already pretty cheap compared to equivalent Marriott resorts in similar destinations and these do not transfer with the ability to enroll in the DC program. Since I own all OF/OV units as well as other high end timeshares, I lose if I deposit in II. I only use II and RCI for Getaways.


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## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> I was hoping they might convert my 176K SO for WKOVN-OF to an equivalent number of DC Points so I can either use my deeded week or trade within the new program’s 100+ timeshare resorts. The problem with StarOptions now is I own one of the best Vistana properties so I would rarely exchange within the VSE network unless I could get another Maui OF 2 bedroom or I could go to WSJ. If I could get enough DC Points to exchange my WKOVR-N OF for an equivalent Hawaii or Caribbean OF 2 bedroom, then I think I would be better off if Marriott gets rid of Star Options and converts my Star Options into DC Points. That would thoroughly enhance my like-for-like trading options. The only open issue is whether Marriott would take away the ability to resell mandatory resorts with DC Points, if it gets rid of StarOptions. The down side here is it may devalue the resale value of the mandatory resorts. However, if they roll it out right, maybe things would be fine. The mandatory resorts are already pretty cheap in VSE compared to equivalent Marriott resorts in similar destinations and these do not transfer with the ability to enroll in the DC program.


If my predictions are right, I think they will assign DC points to your underlying week vs a SO to DC conversion. That may work well for Hawaii owners as Marriott gave Hawaii owners a lot of points for their Hawaii ownership in DC.


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## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> If my predictions are right, I think they will assign DC points to your underlying week vs a SO to DC conversion. That may work well for Hawaii owners as Marriott gave Hawaii owners a lot of points for their Hawaii ownership in DC.



This would be great!


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## Carlsbadguy

Wondering if salespeople will be saying anything about this.  I am going to Marriott Desert Springs Villas tomorrow and got the call today to attend the owner education seminar (as they called it). Offered a $200 gift card or 30,000 points which is the most I have heard of.


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## dioxide45

Carlsbadguy said:


> Wondering if salespeople will be saying anything about this.  I am going to Marriott Desert Springs Villas tomorrow and got the call today to attend the owner education seminar (as they called it). Offered a $200 gift card or 30,000 points which is the most I have heard of.


Oh, you will hear about it. However the sales people will know no more about it than what you have read here already.


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## mjm1

Carlsbadguy said:


> Wondering if salespeople will be saying anything about this.  I am going to Marriott Desert Springs Villas tomorrow and got the call today to attend the owner education seminar (as they called it). Offered a $200 gift card or 30,000 points which is the most I have heard of.





dioxide45 said:


> Oh, you will hear about it. However the sales people will know no more about it than what you have read here already.



I agree. We just met with a sales person the other day at Shadow Ridge and they are excited about the acquisition, but they don’t know any more than we do at this point. They speculated just like Tuggers. And of course, they will encourage you to buy points now, because prices will only go up.

Best regards.

Mike


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## JIMinNC

As I have been reading all of this speculation, one thought that occurred to me is for the last 8 years, Marriott owners have been talking about pre-June 2010 and post-June 2010. Those who were owners pre-6/2010 have a huge advantage with regards to ease of enrollment in the DC compared to those of us who came in after 6/2010. It seems at some point we may have a new before/after date - the point at which Marriott Vacations Worldwide announces any kind of specific program to allow cross-program bookings. Those who are on board before that point, may be grandfathered or otherwise benefit from that status. For example, if point levels needed for Executive, Presidential, etc rise due to the influx of owners with interests in both systems (not sure how significant that might be), folks already at that level might be grandfathered. There also could be some other option that is grandfathered like the pre-June 2010 weeks were.

Our goal has been to find a reasonable way to get to at least Executive status (so far haven't made the jump), and since Westin and Hyatt have a lot of locations I think we would like to try, our meager point total would be even more inadequate than it is now should some sort of an expanded program emerge. This all at least has me thinking about whether we should approach things with a little more sense of urgency to get to a higher level before plans are announced. I suspect that any before/after date would not be until the specific changes/programs were actually announced, so that will clearly take some time, so hopefully we'll find a way to better our status before that day comes.


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## dougp26364

JIMinNC said:


> As I have been reading all of this speculation, one thought that occurred to me is for the last 8 years, Marriott owners have been talking about pre-June 2010 and post-June 2010. Those who were owners pre-6/2010 have a huge advantage with regards to ease of enrollment in the DC compared to those of us who came in after 6/2010. It seems at some point we may have a new before/after date - the point at which Marriott Vacations Worldwide announces any kind of specific program to allow cross-program bookings. Those who are on board before that point, may be grandfathered or otherwise benefit from that status. For example, if point levels needed for Executive, Presidential, etc rise due to the influx of owners with interests in both systems (not sure how significant that might be), folks already at that level might be grandfathered. There also could be some other option that is grandfathered like the pre-June 2010 weeks were.
> 
> Our goal has been to find a reasonable way to get to at least Executive status (so far haven't made the jump), and since Westin and Hyatt have a lot of locations I think we would like to try, our meager point total would be even more inadequate than it is now should some sort of an expanded program emerge. This all at least has me thinking about whether we should approach things with a little more sense of urgency to get to a higher level before plans are announced. I suspect that any before/after date would not be until the specific changes/programs were actually announced, so that will clearly take some time, so hopefully we'll find a way to better our status before that day comes.



Now your thinking like sales executives and I’m very certain your correct!

I remember all the speculation before the DC was announced. We all looked at other systems and speculated on what may or may not be in store for MVW owners ( for the record my speculation was WAY off ). We got bits and pieces right but, by and large the program was considerably different than what any of us thought. I even called it a big piece of sh*t, or something to that effect. To this day I’m still HUGELY disappointed in MVW’s point system, even though I will use it when it fits my needs.

Now we have at least a little history to look back on. I think it’s reasonably safe to say that there will be a honeymoon period where MVW makes it less expensive for owners to merge or blend the products......for a small fee that will escalate considerably after the honeymoon is over. I believe we originally paid $295 to join, allowing us to convert our traditional weeks tompoints that played in the DC system. This gives the sales teams the opportunity to milk current ownership by driving us into the sales rooms to explain our options under the new program and scare us into buying more of a product that, IMHO, is WAY overpriced.

Past this I think we can throw everything out the window. When MVW came out with the DC owners where somewhat blindsided by the “skim”. There was also the big debate about the different “point buckets” and the difference between what was in writing and what the sales staff was telling owners. Also the previous weeks seasons didn’t match up evenly with the points allotted (Ocean Pointe gold season weeks received fewer points than Silver season owners if I recall correctly).

Now MVW will be takes with blending not just weeks to points, but two separate points systems with different rules. It’s fu to speculate but, I bet we get far more wrong than we get right. I also bet they do something to pull at least a little more money out of my pocket wether or not I want to spend it. I like keeping my options open. You never know what life is going to throw at you. I’m happy with the MVW selection but I’d REALLY like access to the Hyatt in Sedona. Now if I can get reasonable access thru an internal weeks exchange for very little upfront money (joiner fee that I anticipate), that’s what we’ll do. OTOH, if they want thousands out of us in the form of purchasing mandatory points packages to participate in both systems, well, it would probably be cheaper for me to buy a resale week in Sedona and rarely use it than buy direct from Marriott. I’m hoping for a small joiner fee to be able to use what I have to play in all the ownership pools. I’m betting Marriott will want far more. Regardless of what they do I’m reasonably content to stay where I am if the price to play is to high, and to high is when it gets to be in the thousands of dollars vs hundreds.


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## kds4

dioxide45 said:


> If my predictions are right, I think they will assign DC points to your underlying week vs a SO to DC conversion. That may work well for Hawaii owners as Marriott gave Hawaii owners a lot of points for their Hawaii ownership in DC.



I think the question is how they will value those Hawaii SPG properties in DC points versus the MVC properties. The rub is always in the final numbers and whether it will be a 1:1 valuation against Hawaii MVC properties or if the SPG properties get valued lower (possibly) or higher (unlikely)?


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## kds4

Carlsbadguy said:


> Wondering if salespeople will be saying anything about this.  I am going to Marriott Desert Springs Villas tomorrow and got the call today to attend the owner education seminar (as they called it). Offered a $200 gift card or 30,000 points which is the most I have heard of.



If the 30k MRPs will help you in regard to obtaining a lifetime status with Marriott Hotels prior to the MR/SPG loyalty program integration, I would take the points.


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## dougp26364

kds4 said:


> I think the question is how they will value those Hawaii SPG properties in DC points versus the MVC properties. The rub is always in the final numbers and whether it will be a 1:1 valuation against Hawaii MVC properties or if the SPG properties get valued lower (possibly) or higher (unlikely)?



Maybe a mathmatical algorythm to assign “equivalent” value. Not equivalent in the eyes of the owners but in the relative value within each system.


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## kds4

JIMinNC said:


> As I have been reading all of this speculation, one thought that occurred to me is for the last 8 years, Marriott owners have been talking about pre-June 2010 and post-June 2010. Those who were owners pre-6/2010 have a huge advantage with regards to ease of enrollment in the DC compared to those of us who came in after 6/2010. It seems at some point we may have a new before/after date - the point at which Marriott Vacations Worldwide announces any kind of specific program to allow cross-program bookings. Those who are on board before that point, may be grandfathered or otherwise benefit from that status. For example, if point levels needed for Executive, Presidential, etc rise due to the influx of owners with interests in both systems (not sure how significant that might be), folks already at that level might be grandfathered. There also could be some other option that is grandfathered like the pre-June 2010 weeks were.
> 
> Our goal has been to find a reasonable way to get to at least Executive status (so far haven't made the jump), and since Westin and Hyatt have a lot of locations I think we would like to try, our meager point total would be even more inadequate than it is now should some sort of an expanded program emerge. This all at least has me thinking about whether we should approach things with a little more sense of urgency to get to a higher level before plans are announced. I suspect that any before/after date would not be until the specific changes/programs were actually announced, so that will clearly take some time, so hopefully we'll find a way to better our status before that day comes.



I have actually been having similar thoughts myself. We have resisted moving from Presidential to Chairman because of no obvious benefits to us based on how we have traveled in the past. With all of the program changes ahead, now I am not so sure we shouldn't jump.


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## GregT

If I had not already purchased Trust Points, I would be buying them now and trying to close before the merger is complete.   I do think if someone is on the fence about buying Trust Points (resale), this could tip you over to buy them.

This is because I believe Trust Points will play an important role in whatever the future system is - but this is my opinion only.

Doug is correct that much of our speculation prior to June 2010 was wrong, but some of it was right and I recall thinking that I should buy a Ko Olina week and close it before the announcement, but I couldnt get it done.  That was because of my experience with Worldmark, where the world changed in November 2006 and there were grandfathered points which had preferential advantages versus the post Nov 2006 points.

Good luck to each of us as we all have unique circumstances and considerations.

Best,

Greg


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## VacationForever

If I could use more trust points at MVC, I would likely buy more now and get me to Chairman status.  I would not count on Hyatt, Vistana and Marriott to be all thrown into DC system in the future.  I see the future includes the ability to book across the 3 systems based on status and for timeshares were developer bought or re-qualified.


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## Steve Fatula

Carlsbadguy said:


> Wondering if salespeople will be saying anything about this.  I am going to Marriott Desert Springs Villas tomorrow and got the call today to attend the owner education seminar (as they called it). Offered a $200 gift card or 30,000 points which is the most I have heard of.



Yep, got that in February. I take the points. Points guy values then at .9 cents each, meaning, $270. When used wisely, they are worth more.


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## CalGalTraveler

dougp26364 said:


> Now MVW will be takes with blending not just weeks to points, but two separate points systems with different rules. It’s fu to speculate but, I bet we get far more wrong than we get right. I also bet they do something to pull at least a little more money out of my pocket wether or not I want to spend it. I like keeping my options open. You never know what life is going to throw at you. I’m happy with the MVW selection but I’d REALLY like access to the Hyatt in Sedona. Now if I can get reasonable access thru an internal weeks exchange for very little upfront money (joiner fee that I anticipate), that’s what we’ll do. OTOH, if they want thousands out of us in the form of purchasing mandatory points packages to participate in both systems, well, it would probably be cheaper for me to buy a resale week in Sedona and rarely use it than buy direct from Marriott. I’m hoping for a small joiner fee to be able to use what I have to play in all the ownership pools. I’m betting Marriott will want far more. Regardless of what they do I’m reasonably content to stay where I am if the price to play is to high, and to high is when it gets to be in the thousands of dollars vs hundreds.



You make a good point. Whatever they propose for a blended program, it will have to provide a benefit that exceeds the following alternatives from a cost and hassle perspective:

1) *Buy a resale unit. *(Your point) It might be cheaper to buy a resale and pay the maintenance fee than to pay entry plus MF into the system. This alternative cannot be devalued because it is deeded. However, for a one-off visit this is not practical.

2) *Use your VAC unit and trade through another system *e.g. Hilton Grand (HGVC), Worldmark, Wyndham, RCI, DVC, Bluegreen. The incremental cost of buying a resale in the HGVC or Worldmark system might be much less costly than buying into the blended system.  We own at HGVC and can get similar quality resorts in most locations - very easy to trade with a low cost of enrollment and low risk of devaluation because it is based on deeds instead of a trust. Many owners already own VOIs in multiple systems so this would not cost extra.

3) *Rent out your unit, and use the money to rent elsewhere. * Extra work but doable. You get exactly what you want to rent, but has pricing and availability risks.

4) *Continue to trade using existing systems *e.g. StarOptions (if they still exist). Smaller portfolio but might be okay given risks and cost of DC.

5) *Deposit in II or elsewhere and trade.* Given VAC will own II and can control availability and incentives, this will be a crap shoot to get a similar quality trade.

6) *Trade for free using TUG *


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## Ralph Sir Edward

item #1 can _effectively _devalued, depending on how access is determined between the points system and the deeded pool. 

Access is "black box" to all owners. . . .


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## dougp26364

VacationForever said:


> ................I see the future includes the ability to book across the 3 systems based on status and for timeshares were developer bought or re-qualified.



I would be willing to actually bet you're correct with this "speculation". Being able to book at 100 resorts across all brands would have to much sex appeal for the sales staff to not do this. Allowing developer weeks and not resale weeks would make the sales staff giddy with delight. 

The question of course is, how much is it going to cost the owners for the privilege to access all 3 systems? Will they have another "joiner" fee? Will they re-create a new points system to merge all systems together or have an equivalent value to move from one system to another (I'm betting equivalent value)? Will those who owned deeded weeks be relegated to only being able to exchange week for week between the systems? Those are the things we'd love to know but will have to wait. I'm darn sure not buying more weeks, points or ownership interests based on speculation or sales staff's whispers.

We're fortunate in that we're happy with what we own. If worse came to worse we like our home resorts and can use them for vacations without exchanging. Currently we use our Ocean Pointe unit every year without trading. In the past we locked off the studio unit for trade but, recent changes made that difficult enough it hasn't been worth it to us (less online inventory, harder to trade up and size upgrade fee's). As to our Grand Chateau week we've converted it to DC points when we had special needs like shorter stays, particular views, non-traditional check in days or wanting a specific view category. We also use Grand Chateau in the weeks exchange system because it just has better value there for us than in points. We recently concluded a 1 bedroom exchange into Palm Desert and recently confirmed a 2 bedroom exchange for South Lake Tahoe. Personally I still prefer week for week exchanges but, for destinations such as Hawaii, points work better for us as FF tickets are easier on Tuesday and Wednesday plus, in weeks exchange the most likely outcome for unit placement would be mountain or island view and we'd always prefer, at a minimum, ocean side/view or ocean front.


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## CalGalTraveler

BTW...what does "Skimming" mean?  (I'm new to Marriott)


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## Steve Fatula

CalGalTraveler said:


> BTW...what does "Skimming" mean?  (I'm new to Marriott)


When using DC points.... A weeks resort might be able to be converted to say 2000 points. Now, you take those points and you want to stay at the same resort, it will cost you say 2,500 points. The 500 is the skim. Of course, generally, you would not do this but the point is they take a cut.


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## CalGalTraveler

Steve Fatula said:


> When using DC points.... A weeks resort might be able to be converted to say 2000 points. Now, you take those points and you want to stay at the same resort, it will cost you say 2,500 points. The 500 is the skim. Of course, generally, you would not do this but the point is they take a cut.



Thanks. Wow that sucks. There is no notion of "skimming" in Hilton or Staroption systems. We will frequently stay at our home Hilton resort but use the points to upgrade to a larger unit, view, or fewer days - no skim - points are points. As long as you pay your MF you are entitled to use them anywhere in the system.

Why do they do this? Why do they care?


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## Steve Fatula

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks. Wow that sucks. There is no notion of "skimming" in Hilton or Staroption systems. We will frequently stay at our home Hilton resort but use the points (unskimmed) to upgrade to a larger unit, view, or fewer days - no skim - points are points. As long as you pay your MF you are entitled to use them anywhere in the system.



Points are points if you buy them. But not when you convert them. There are various explanations on why they might do this, such as you can then potentially stay only 1 night, breaking up a week for others, increasing expenses, etc. You cannot stay 1 night with a week of course. If you wanted to stay at your home resort, you wouldn't generally convert to points, you would just stay.


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## chemteach

Steve Fatula said:


> Points are points if you buy them. But not when you convert them. There are various explanations on why they might do this, such as you can then potentially stay only 1 night, breaking up a week for others, increasing expenses, etc. You cannot stay 1 night with a week of course. If you wanted to stay at your home resort, you wouldn't generally convert to points, you would just stay.


With StarOptions, you can book fewer than 7 nights at a specific timeframe - I can't recall whether it is 8 months, 6 months, etc.  I believe there is no "housekeeping fee" even if you were to book 7 single nights at different resorts within Vistana using StarOptions.


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## CalGalTraveler

FWIW...This is very eye-opening as an HGVC owner (and new Vistana owner). Perhaps this is because HGVC was designed for deeds/points from the ground up vs. adding points onto a legacy weeks-based system where people opt-in to enroll?

Hilton TS are min 3 nights with no additional housekeeping fee (in NYC min is 1 night with < 3 night housekeeping fee of $85/stay).


You can stay longer or shorter.
You can borrow points from future years for free to upgrade to a better view or bigger unit than what you own.
Points automatically come with your unit no matter whether you bought from the developer or resale.
Resale buyers have mostly the same privileges as developer purchases.

Perhaps they don't worry because the system is fluid - most HGVC owners use points and don't use their home week. I have never heard HGVC management whine about expenses relating to breaking up weeks or housekeeping costs.  In fact, HGVC MF tend to be much lower than what I have seen for Marriott/Vistana so this is proof that breaking up weeks and additional housekeeping cost does not significantly disrupt the cost equation.


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## chemteach

An interesting sidenote...  15,000 DC Trust points are needed for Chairman status (does this get you any type of status in the Marriott Rewards Program?)  This is comparable to approximately five 2-bedroom Grand Chateau units, three 2-bedroom Maui Ocean Club Mountain/Garden view units, or five 2-bedroom Palm Desert units red season.   In Vistana, approximately four 2-bedroom lockout units at any combination of Westin properties will get you 5 star elite (highest level of status in Vistana) - which provides platinum for life status in Starwood.   It's interesting to compare the Marriott/Vistana relationship with the status you get for owning more than one unit.


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## GregT

CalGalTraveler said:


> FWIW...This is very eye-opening as an HGVC owner (and new Vistana owner). Perhaps this is because HGVC was designed for deeds/points from the ground up vs. adding points onto a legacy weeks-based system where people opt-in to enroll?
> 
> Hilton TS are min 3 nights with no additional housekeeping fee (in NYC min is 1 night with < 3 night housekeeping fee of $85/stay).
> 
> 
> You can stay longer or shorter.
> You can borrow points from future years for free to upgrade to a better view or bigger unit than what you own.
> Points automatically come with your unit no matter whether you bought from the developer or resale.
> Resale buyers have mostly the same privileges as developer purchases.
> 
> Perhaps they don't worry because the system is fluid - most HGVC owners use points and don't use their home week. I have never heard HGVC management whine about expenses relating to breaking up weeks or housekeeping costs.  In fact, HGVC MF tend to be much lower than what I have seen for Marriott/Vistana so this is proof that breaking up weeks and additional housekeeping cost does not significantly disrupt the cost equation.



The skim has always been a controversial topic with Marriott owners.  Some think it stinks and it doesn’t bother others.  There have been many different efforts to justify it, but it’s easiest to simply conclude that it’s how the system was structured and how Marriotts decided to let legacy owners participate. 

I also prefer Starwood and HGVC’s approach, but there is much to like about the Marriott point system. 

Best,

Greg


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## bobpark56

nanceetom said:


> Wow! A lot has been stated on this thread!  Don't mean to sound ignorant, but I guess I am.  Do long time tuggers believe that enrolled Legacy owners will be left out in the cold without bought Trust points?


The sales folks at Newport Coast just gave us free enrollment for our Grande Vista 2BR gold week (purchased in 2006), along with $75. You may want to agree to a presentation on your next visit to MVCI.


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## Ralph Sir Edward

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks. Wow that sucks. There is no notion of "skimming" in Hilton or Staroption systems. We will frequently stay at our home Hilton resort but use the points to upgrade to a larger unit, view, or fewer days - no skim - points are points. As long as you pay your MF you are entitled to use them anywhere in the system.
> 
> Why do they do this? Why do they care?



Why? Because it's pure profit to MVC. For every 7 days converted, they "skim" one day for MVC. That adds up a week for them to rent, or otherwise use to their benefit) for every seven weeks converted.

If you are a points owner, you have to cough up $2 a point in order to sell your points. Why? Pure profit for MVC. (MVC charges other fees to handle the paperwork of the change.) 
No sales force needed, and they can charge it over and over, each time the points change hands.

(And yes, you can get into the following situation - unable to get through to book your week at the 12 month window opening(all inventory booked by the time you got through), but. . . .no problem renting the same week you were trying for with points, if you're willing to pay the "skim"; i.e. with extra points . . . )


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## dougp26364

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks. Wow that sucks. There is no notion of "skimming" in Hilton or Staroption systems. We will frequently stay at our home Hilton resort but use the points to upgrade to a larger unit, view, or fewer days - no skim - points are points. As long as you pay your MF you are entitled to use them anywhere in the system.
> 
> Why do they do this? Why do they care?



HGVC nickle and dimes members with extra fees for anything except using your home week. Marriott’s DC is one fee for all, but they have their point “skim”. 
It’s just Marriott’s way of collecting a fee on the back end instead of upfront.


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## dsmrp

chemteach said:


> With StarOptions, you can book fewer than 7 nights at a specific timeframe - I can't recall whether it is 8 months, 6 months, etc.  I believe there is no "housekeeping fee" even if you were to book 7 single nights at different resorts within Vistana using StarOptions.



Star options booking is at 8 months.
And there are additional housekeeping fees if you book more stays than your annual allotment.
I get one housekeeping credit per timeshare unit per year.  If I reserve more than that, I think the current charge is $30; might have gone up to $35.
Housekeeping credits do not rollover into the next calendar year.


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## dsmrp

dougp26364 said:


> HGVC nickle and dimes members with extra fees for anything except using your home week. Marriott’s DC is one fee for all, but they have their point “skim”.
> It’s just Marriott’s way of collecting a fee on the back end instead of upfront.



I don't mind the nickel and dime for what I do use up front in HGVC.  A one time larger fee benefits most the people who make a lot of reservations and changes.  I admit I do like in Vistana being able to make and cancel a reservation without charge. Marriott's fees just seem higher than HGVC and Vistana overall


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## CalGalTraveler

dougp26364 said:


> HGVC nickle and dimes members with extra fees for anything except using your home week. Marriott’s DC is one fee for all, but they have their point “skim”.
> It’s just Marriott’s way of collecting a fee on the back end instead of upfront.



It would be good to compare. HGVC does nickel and dime, however my impression is that the MVC fees are not nickels and dimes; an MVC day skimmed off of an annual MF is hundreds of dollars ($343 if your MF is $2400 vs. $65 online HGVC reservation fee. HGVC $104 to save your points to next year but borrowing points and housekeeping is free. $120 for all you can eat reservations and changes for NYC owners.

Does MVC charge any other fees to enroll your points? Is it thousands to enroll? I thought there was also a MF associated with it? Perhaps I am confusing this with the DC points system.


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## dougp26364

dsmrp said:


> I don't mind the nickel and dime for what I do use up front in HGVC.  A one time larger fee benefits most the people who make a lot of reservations and changes.  I admit I do like in Vistana being able to make and cancel a reservation without charge. Marriott's fees just seem higher than HGVC and Vistana overall





CalGalTraveler said:


> It would be good to compare. HGVC does nickel and dime, however my impression is that the MVC fees are not nickels and dimes; an MVC day skimmed off of an annual MF is hundreds of dollars ($343 if your MF is $2400 vs. $89 HGVC reservation fee. HGVC $109 to save your points to next year but borrowing points and housekeeping is free. $120 for all you can eat reservations and changes for NYC owners.
> 
> Does MVC charge any other fees to enroll your points? Is it thousands to enroll? I thought there was also a MF associated with it? Perhaps I am confusing this with the DC points system.



I tend to ageee. Which is why I called Marriott’s DC a pile of sh*t when it came out. If it had been a reasonably good system, I’d convert my weeks to points every year and book with points. However, the value is so poor we use points only when we need the flexibility


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## controller1

dsmrp said:


> Star options booking is at 8 months.
> And there are additional housekeeping fees if you book more stays than your annual allotment.
> I get one housekeeping credit per timeshare unit per year.  If I reserve more than that, I think the current charge is $30; might have gone up to $35.
> Housekeeping credits do not rollover into the next calendar year.



I've owned Vistana (Starwood) since 2007 and I've never heard anything about this housekeeping credit per timeshare unit per year.  Have you ever been charged this?  And exactly what is the "annual allotment"?


----------



## SueDonJ

CalGalTraveler said:


> It would be good to compare. HGVC does nickel and dime, however my impression is that the MVC fees are not nickels and dimes; an MVC day skimmed off of an annual MF is hundreds of dollars ($343 if your MF is $2400 vs. $89 HGVC reservation fee. HGVC $109 to save your points to next year but borrowing points and housekeeping is free. $120 for all you can eat reservations and changes for NYC owners.
> 
> Does MVC charge any other fees to enroll your points? Is it thousands to enroll? I thought there was also a MF associated with it? Perhaps I am confusing this with the DC points system.



Destination Club Trust Points can be purchased direct from MVW or via external-resale, in which case there are added fees that TUGgers call "junk fees" which must be paid to get the same benefits that direct DC Points get.  After paying the purchase price and any associated fees, you annually pay MF's based on the Trust's Operating Budget as well as a Club Dues fee (sliding scale based on ownership status, which is based on how many Points you own) that covers administration fees.  There is no "skim" associated with using DC Trust Points; the Points Chart indicates how many Points are required for specific reservations based on the resort, the size and view of the desired unit, and the days and dates of the desired reservation.  If a desired interval is available and you have the required amount of Points it can be booked within the designated Reservation Windows, which vary according to ownership status and number of days of the desired reservation.

The overwhelming majority of MVW Weeks have been priced and sold based on the individual resorts' seasonal calendars and varying unit sizes.  Some Weeks are fixed week/unit, some fixed week but not unit, but the overwhelming majority are floating.  Some are dedicated unit size, some are lock-outs.  If you own deeded Weeks with MVW - whether direct-purchase or external resale - you pay annual MF's based on the individual resorts' Operating Budgets and the owned unit size.  (Only the Florida and California resorts differentiate the MF's property tax component according to the season or purchase price of owned Weeks.)

Any US/Caribbean Weeks purchased prior to 2010 are eligible for enrollment in the Destination Club for a fee.  They've run periodic specials where if you purchase DC Trust Points, or sit through a sales presentation, or sit through a webinar, etc, the enrollment fee may be waived.  (Since the DC inception in 2010 they have increased the basic enrollment fee so there's no reason to think they can't change it at any time.)  MVW has its own internal Resales Operations unit and any Weeks purchased through them are eligible for enrollment if a specified number of DC Trust Points is purchased within one year of the Week purchase.  The Euro and Asia-Pacific Weeks have been integrated in the DC in varying fashion; owners of those particular Weeks can speak to that much better than I can.

Enrollment of an eligible Week is NOT a surrender of that ownership to MVW; it's simply an overlay on the existing deeded ownership/benefits/usage that remains with the owner.  Enrollment doesn't affect the Weeks annual MF's - owners of same enrolled and unenrolled Weeks pay the same MF's - except that owners of enrolled Weeks must in addition pay the same Club Dues fee assessed to DC Trust Members.  In the case of enrolled Weeks this fee covers many, but not all, of the administration costs for traditional Weeks usage via both MVW and II.

Each of the hundreds of various resort/unit size and view/season eligible Weeks is allotted a specified number of DC Exchange Points upon enrollment, which an owner can then elect each year to use those Points in the Destination Club Exchange Company according to the Points Chart referenced above (rather than the traditional usage of the Week.)  "Skim" comes into play here because for the overwhelming majority of Weeks, but with some notable exceptions, more DC Points than those allotted are required to book the same type of interval as the enrolled Week.  I share the opinion of many other TUGgers that this is practically inconsequential because an enrolled Week can still be booked as owned simply by the owner not electing to exchange it for DC Points in any year, and I don't begrudge MVW the opportunity to recoup some value from intervals which will go unused due to the inevitable breakage caused by DC Points reservations.  Others disagree, and I wouldn't presume to say that they're wrong - we just think differently. 

That's the basics. (Whew!)  Anybody who wants to delve into more detail about the Destination Club should take a look at the sticky FAQ, which was compiled with the help of many, many Marriott owners who've taken painstaking review of the governing docs and shared their experiences while using the DC since its introduction.


----------



## BocaBoy

Steve Fatula said:


> When using DC points.... A weeks resort might be able to be converted to say 2000 points. Now, you take those points and you want to stay at the same resort, it will cost you say 2,500 points. The 500 is the skim. Of course, generally, you would not do this but *the point is they take a cut*.



But in exchange for the skim, they do not charge fees for most transactions, which most non-skim systems do.


----------



## nuwermj

Steve Fatula said:


> When using DC points.... A weeks resort might be able to be converted to say 2000 points. Now, you take those points and you want to stay at the same resort, it will cost you say 2,500 points. The 500 is the skim. Of course, generally, you would not do this but the point is they take a cut.



Is the skim zero sum over 52 weeks? Is there, say, a deeded week in the low season that converts to 2000 points but costs only 1,500 points to reserve?


----------



## Steve Fatula

CalGalTraveler said:


> It would be good to compare. HGVC does nickel and dime, however my impression is that the MVC fees are not nickels and dimes; an MVC day skimmed off of an annual MF is hundreds of dollars ($343 if your MF is $2400 vs. $65 online HGVC reservation fee. HGVC $104 to save your points to next year but borrowing points and housekeeping is free. $120 for all you can eat reservations and changes for NYC owners.
> 
> Does MVC charge any other fees to enroll your points? Is it thousands to enroll? I thought there was also a MF associated with it? Perhaps I am confusing this with the DC points system.



Don't misunderstand, there is only skim if you trade your week for DC points. If you occupy, no skim. If you trade in II, no skim. So, it only applies for enrolled weeks that elect to trade for DC points.


----------



## Steve Fatula

nuwermj said:


> Is the skim zero sum over 52 weeks? Is there, say, a deeded week in the low season that converts to 2000 points but costs only 1,500 points to reserve?



As far as I have seen, no, but I have not looked at every resort. It's a minority item since it only applies to enrolled weeks who elect to trade for DC points. I would suspect that's a minority, but could be wrong. I would get better use exchanging and locking off for 2 weeks than taking the points. There are some cases where it could be to your advantage, if you want a certain view for example which you can't reliably get with II. I try and keep weeks as normal weeks, and, points as points. Once the week is enrolled, you have a flat reasonable fee and lockoffs, II membership, and, Marriott exchanges are all "free".


----------



## Superchief

Steve Fatula said:


> When using DC points.... A weeks resort might be able to be converted to say 2000 points. Now, you take those points and you want to stay at the same resort, it will cost you say 2,500 points. The 500 is the skim. Of course, generally, you would not do this but the point is they take a cut.


Another way that some MVC resorts skim is by charging more points for a studio and 1BR separately than for the 2 BR. I notice that MCV takes advantage of this opportunity, especially for the Spring weeks. They make an additional 10-20% on DC points reservations for the 1BR plus studio vs 2BR. I assume other MVC resorts also profit from this type of 'skim'.


----------



## Steve Fatula

Superchief said:


> Another way that some MVC resorts skim is by charging more points for a studio and 1BR separately than for the 2 BR. I notice that MCV takes advantage of this opportunity, especially for the Spring weeks. They make an additional 10-20% on DC points reservations for the 1BR plus studio vs 2BR. I assume other MVC resorts also profit from this type of 'skim'.



Yes, I can see my home resort has an approximately 2% higher points cost for a 2BR. Of course, they do have a slightly higher cost for 2 reservations vs 1, 2 housekeeping trips, 2 checkins/outs, etc. Not sure 2% is much of a profit given all of the added costs.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Thanks @SueDonJ et al lots of good MVC information to digest.  From a quick glance comparing an enrolled week (since that is what Vistana/Hyatt will probably be offered) to the Hilton System (HGVC) - which is what I understand:

*Enrollment: *                  MVC DC = $2375  (but can be waived/grandfathered. Opt-in);   HGVC = $599 mandatory for all new properties (Dev & resale)
*Annual Dues *(basic):     MVC DC $195 (includes II fee); HGVC = $159 (includes RCI fee)
*Reservations:*                MVC  DC = free;  HGVC $65
*Borrow Points: *             MVC DC = Free; HGVC = Free
*Save Points:*                 MVC DC = Free; HGVC = $109
*SKIM *                          MVC  DC = 1 night ; HGVC = None
*Lock-off Fee:*                MVC DC  = Free    ; HGVC = n/a (points based system)
*Exchange Program:*       MVC DC  = Free II  ;  HGVC = Free (internal system)
  (within system)           _(Marriott preference)_;
*Exchange Program *       MVC Legacy = $189?/exchange (II); HGVC $239/exchange + Fixed Points (RCI) + resort fees.
_   (external)                                                   _

[Updated]
The enrollment difference is 2375 - 599 = 1776. But while there is a $65 reservation fee, there is also cheaper annual dues amount ($36 cheaper) which need to be taken in account.
So for a once a year reservation, it's 1776 / 29 (65-36) = 61 years. (of course for 2 reservations a year 1776 / 94 (65 + 65 - 36) = 18 years - for 3 reservations a year, 1776 / 159 (65 + 65 + 65 -36) = 11 years.)

Of course a waiver improves the break-even.

This does not factor implicit fees such as skim.

I am too new to Vistana to do a similar comparison.  Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could take a crack at this.

Edited to clarify/add updates from post below.


----------



## GregT

bobpark56 said:


> The sales folks at Newport Coast just gave us free enrollment for our Grande Vista 2BR gold week (purchased in 2006), along with $75. You may want to agree to a presentation on your next visit to MVCI.


Always love to hear the stories about free enrollment.

I do think we will see a post-2010 week enrollment amnesty program at some point - 10 year anniversary would make sense.  That also gives them two years to sell points to Starwood owners - and I think these sales will put additional inventory pressure on Marriott, and they will want the post 2010 weeks available (my opinion).

Interesting to speculate and will be curious to, in the future, look back to see what was correct and what missed.

Best,

Greg


----------



## Steve Fatula

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks @SueDonJ et al lots of good information to digest.  From a quick glance comparing an enrolled week:
> 
> Enrollment:                   MVC DC $2375  (but can be waived/grandfathered. Opt-in);   HGVC = $599 mandatory for all new properties (sale & resale)
> Annual Dues (basic):     MVC DC $195 (includes II fee); HGVC = $159 (includes RCI fee)
> Reservations:                MVC  DC = free;  HGVC $65
> Borrow Points:              MVC DC = Free?; HGVC = Free
> Save Points:                 MVC DC = Free?; HGVC = $109
> SKIM                           MVC = 1 night ; HGVC = None
> 
> If one wasn't given a waiver/grandfathered, it would take 27 reservations in HGVC to break even with the enrollment fee difference. If one makes 2 reservations a year that is almost 14 years or 9 years if you make 3 a year.  Of course a waiver changes this equation. The annual dues are in the ballpark with each other. This does not factor in the other fees. I
> 
> I am too new to Vistana to do a similar comparison.  Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could take a crack at this.



Skim does not apply to points really (other than a token one as pointed out by Superchief above and only in that use case). It applies to enrolled legacy weeks, and only if you elect to convert them that year to points. Borrow points is indeed "free" with MVC, and is save (bank) points. To add to your chart, trading in II to another Marriott is $0 for a legacy week (not points), included in that Annual Dues. As is locking off your unit. For this reason, your chart is misleading. At least I think so.


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## Superchief

nuwermj said:


> Is the skim zero sum over 52 weeks? Is there, say, a deeded week in the low season that converts to 2000 points but costs only 1,500 points to reserve?


There may be weeks available in that season for fewer than the allocated points. However, in my experience there are significantly more weeks costing more points than fewer points. If we plan to use one of our home resorts in season, we would never convert it to VC points. However, we have converted several of our home resort weeks to points in situations that we only plan to use 1BR or fewer nights. Avoiding a Friday or Saturday night stay typically saves significant points and minimizes the impact of skim. We can also use a Gold season 2BR week points for a Platinum season 1BR, so this works in our favor in the VC points system.


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## CalGalTraveler

Steve Fatula said:


> Skim does not apply to points really (other than a token one as pointed out by Superchief above and only in that use case). It applies to enrolled legacy weeks, and only if you elect to convert them that year to points. Borrow points is indeed "free" with MVC, and is save (bank) points. To add to your chart, trading in II to another Marriott is $0 for a legacy week (not points), included in that Annual Dues. As is locking off your unit. For this reason, your chart is misleading. At least I think so.



Thanks. I will edit the chart with your additions.


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## JIMinNC

nuwermj said:


> Is the skim zero sum over 52 weeks? Is there, say, a deeded week in the low season that converts to 2000 points but costs only 1,500 points to reserve?



I do know that in the Maui resorts - and I suspect the other Hawaii resorts as well, but I haven't verified - there are some weeks that have little or no "skim". Maui weeks were all sold as Platinum season, so all weeks of the same view/size get the same point allocation. But with DC Points, there are TWO seasons - peak season which tends to be winter whale season and summer, and a second tier season which tends to be spring and fall, plus the period right after the Holidays in early-to-late January, There is significant skim in the peak seasons, but for the second-tier season, there is little to no skim. For example:

A 2BR OV unit at Maui Ocean Club is assigned 5825 points for every use year. To book that same unit costs 6700 points during the high points season, but only 5850 points during the second tier season. Similarly, a 1BR OF is assigned 4175 DC points, but costs 4125 to book during the lower tier points season, but 4875 during high points season.

There could be other similar situations in the system, but this is the only one I am specifically familiar with. I think it tends to occur when the points seasons differ from the weeks seasons.


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## chemteach

dsmrp said:


> Star options booking is at 8 months.
> And there are additional housekeeping fees if you book more stays than your annual allotment.
> I get one housekeeping credit per timeshare unit per year.  If I reserve more than that, I think the current charge is $30; might have gone up to $35.
> Housekeeping credits do not rollover into the next calendar year.


I have never heard of, or experienced this.


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## chemteach

JIMinNC said:


> I do know that in the Maui resorts - and I suspect the other Hawaii resorts as well, but I haven't verified - there are some weeks that have little or no "skim". Maui weeks were all sold as Platinum season,
> A 2BR OV unit at Maui Ocean Club is assigned 5825 points for every use year. To book that same unit costs 6700 points during the high points season, but only 5850 points during the second tier season. Similarly, a 1BR OF is assigned 4175 DC points, but costs 4125 to book during the lower tier points season, but 4875 during high points season..



The "skim" in the DC Trust sounds really bad.  It seems you are defacto getting downgraded if you deposit your week into the trust on any particular year.  It seems trading in II is a better option - of course, you can only get a week that has been deposited in II in order to use II.  I own in several systems, and have only ever exchanged up in value.  The idea of depositing my week for something less than what would allow me to get back into my home resort system seems counter-intuitive to me.  I suppose if someone has a low cost per point ratio, it would make sense because you could trade into a nicer place if you deposit several units into the Trust.  It will be very interesting to see what VAC ultimately does with Vistana, Marriott, and Hyatt.  At this point, I'm just happy to own in both Vistana, which gets me amazing trades to great places with StarOptions, and Marriott, where I should be able to trade my units for great places via II.  It will be a sad day if/when VAC decides to take away the Marriott preference in II.  What would be REALLY nice is if VAC decided to create a mega-system preference period in II for Hyatt, Vistana, and Marriott weeks.  Upside for VAC is they would get exchange fee money, downside for VAC is that people buying resale would have the same opportunity in II as people who purchased through the developer, so it wouldn't help developer direct purchases.


----------



## dioxide45

nuwermj said:


> Is the skim zero sum over 52 weeks? Is there, say, a deeded week in the low season that converts to 2000 points but costs only 1,500 points to reserve?


It definitely isn't zero sum. I am actually amazed that this link still works, but this was a document created by @DanCali back around DC inception that showed the average number of DC points across the entire year for your season, view, resort, unit. You have to compare those values to what they actually assigned your week in DC points. You can see that in this document maintained by @StevenTing.

_Adding an example: The average number of points needed to book in to book a 2BR OV at Maui Ocean Cub is 6,935 DC points, but they only give an owner 5,825._


----------



## dioxide45

chemteach said:


> With StarOptions, you can book fewer than 7 nights at a specific timeframe - I can't recall whether it is 8 months, 6 months, etc.  I believe there is no "housekeeping fee" even if you were to book 7 single nights at different resorts within Vistana using StarOptions.





dsmrp said:


> Star options booking is at 8 months.
> And there are additional housekeeping fees if you book more stays than your annual allotment.
> I get one housekeeping credit per timeshare unit per year.  If I reserve more than that, I think the current charge is $30; might have gone up to $35.
> Housekeeping credits do not rollover into the next calendar year.





dsmrp said:


> I don't mind the nickel and dime for what I do use up front in HGVC.  A one time larger fee benefits most the people who make a lot of reservations and changes.  I admit I do like in Vistana being able to make and cancel a reservation without charge. Marriott's fees just seem higher than HGVC and Vistana overall





controller1 said:


> I've owned Vistana (Starwood) since 2007 and I've never heard anything about this housekeeping credit per timeshare unit per year.  Have you ever been charged this?  And exactly what is the "annual allotment"?





chemteach said:


> I have never heard of, or experienced this.



We recently ran in to the VSN housekeeping fee. It is actually $56 for a 2BR unit. From what I understand, you get one free credit for every week you own. You get a free housekeeping for each week. So if you own two weeks, you get two credits. The crappy part is if you own a 2BR and you reserve a 1BR premium and 1BR deluxe, you have to pay the housekeeping fee for the second reservation even though your MF covers a 2BR. I don't know if this works differently for 2BR lock off owners, but that is how it is for our SVV 2BR dedicated unit.

We owned two weeks this year when I made three reservations. We own a 1BR EOY and an annual 2BR. The third reservation had a $56 fee for a 2BR. The other reservations were for a 2BR for one night and a 1BR for two nights. When I added a third week ownership a couple weeks ago, I remade the third reservation and the new reservation didn't note the housekeeping fee. I then cancelled the reservation that had the fee.


----------



## gsb

nuwermj said:


> Is the skim zero sum over 52 weeks? Is there, say, a deeded week in the low season that converts to 2000 points but costs only 1,500 points to reserve?


I expect it all depends on the resort and the week. For example, at KoOlina our 2BROV nets us 4950 points if we turn it in. That won’t do a great deal for me if we want to go during a holiday period, or during most of February, March, June, July, or August. There are several months when I could reserve a 2BROV for 4925 points per week. 

Of course that is one resort, but perhaps there are others that work the same way.


----------



## controller1

dioxide45 said:


> We recently ran in to the VSN housekeeping fee. It is actually $56 for a 2BR unit. From what I understand, you get one free credit for every week you own. You get a free housekeeping for each week. So if you own two weeks, you get two credits. The crappy part is if you own a 2BR and you reserve a 1BR premium and 1BR deluxe, you have to pay the housekeeping fee for the second reservation even though your MF covers a 2BR. I don't know if this works differently for 2BR lock off owners, but that is how it is for our SVV 2BR dedicated unit.
> 
> We owned two weeks this year when I made three reservations. We own a 1BR EOY and an annual 2BR. The third reservation had a $56 fee for a 2BR. The other reservations were for a 2BR for one night and a 1BR for two nights. When I added a third week ownership a couple weeks ago, I remade the third reservation and the new reservation didn't note the housekeeping fee. I then cancelled the reservation that had the fee.



As far as a 2BR lockoff, we have stayed two weeks moving from one side to the other and have never been charged a housekeeping fee at WKORV-N.


----------



## mjm1

chemteach said:


> I have never heard of, or experienced this.



We will incur a fee of $38 IIRC as we used some SO’s in January and will use the rest of them in December. We will have to pay the fee in December during our stay.

Mike


----------



## Dean

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks. Wow that sucks. There is no notion of "skimming" in Hilton or Staroption systems. We will frequently stay at our home Hilton resort but use the points to upgrade to a larger unit, view, or fewer days - no skim - points are points. As long as you pay your MF you are entitled to use them anywhere in the system.
> 
> Why do they do this? Why do they care?


Systems that were started as a points system or have been in place for a long time growing up with the points, build the "skim" into the system.  They must all account for orphaned days, unexpected daily events and maintenance so as to not be overbooked with the number of points sold.  So they create their points charts accordingly and they don't sell 100% of the points they potentially could.  With DVC they don't sell 2-4% of the potential points AND if the lockoff's are split, the sum of the points to reserve that unit are more than reserving it as a 2BR.  With full weeks you can more easily predict the needs of the system for lost inventory.  So a certain volume of skim is reasonable.  8 years ago there was a lot of discussion about the % of the skim and my recollection is it was higher than I would have expected based on the issues I raise.  But here's the other portion.  NO ONE lost anything they had before that was contractual.  They can still reserve and use their week with no loss.  While I would have preferred a smaller differential, having the additional choices and benefits of being enrolled is worth it to me.


----------



## TravelTime

JIMinNC said:


> As I have been reading all of this speculation, one thought that occurred to me is for the last 8 years, Marriott owners have been talking about pre-June 2010 and post-June 2010. Those who were owners pre-6/2010 have a huge advantage with regards to ease of enrollment in the DC compared to those of us who came in after 6/2010. It seems at some point we may have a new before/after date - the point at which Marriott Vacations Worldwide announces any kind of specific program to allow cross-program bookings. Those who are on board before that point, may be grandfathered or otherwise benefit from that status. For example, if point levels needed for Executive, Presidential, etc rise due to the influx of owners with interests in both systems (not sure how significant that might be), folks already at that level might be grandfathered. There also could be some other option that is grandfathered like the pre-June 2010 weeks were.
> 
> Our goal has been to find a reasonable way to get to at least Executive status (so far haven't made the jump), and since Westin and Hyatt have a lot of locations I think we would like to try, our meager point total would be even more inadequate than it is now should some sort of an expanded program emerge. This all at least has me thinking about whether we should approach things with a little more sense of urgency to get to a higher level before plans are announced. I suspect that any before/after date would not be until the specific changes/programs were actually announced, so that will clearly take some time, so hopefully we'll find a way to better our status before that day comes.



I agree with JIMinNC. This is what I was trying to describe in one of my early posts but I could not find the right words. I think there will be a new pre/post enrollment date for a new “mega” program. I suspect Marriott will be fair to current owners and give all of us (Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt owners) some reasonable options to enroll in the new program. I assume there may be a cost associated but I do not know, of course. BTW, JIMinNC, I like your posts. I always read what you write. You sound like a knowledgeable, reasonable and respectful Tugger!


----------



## AJCts411

controller1 said:


> As far as a 2BR lockoff, we have stayed two weeks moving from one side to the other and have never been charged a housekeeping fee at WKORV-N.



Been following this thread since the acquisition announcement. (Hyatt owner) I can not see why since you paid for cleaning on a two bedroom lock off unit in your fees, why a honest company would try to gouge you for more dollars when you lock a door.   Two bedrooms need to be cleaned, no extra people, nothing changes but for a extra key program.  Hyatt charges a guest certificate fee for the separate lock off use, ($30) nothing else.  Interesting topic, the merger, can't decide if this will be a gold rush or lead balloon in the end for current owners. With all the lawyers circling, really don't have any concern.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks @SueDonJ et al lots of good information to digest.  From a quick glance comparing an enrolled week (since that is what Vistana/Hyatt will probably be offered):
> 
> *Enrollment: *                  MVC DC = $2375  (but can be waived/grandfathered. Opt-in);   HGVC = $599 mandatory for all new properties (Dev & resale)
> *Annual Dues *(basic):     MVC DC $195 (includes II fee); HGVC = $159 (includes RCI fee)
> *Reservations:*                MVC  DC = free;  HGVC $65
> *Borrow Points: *             MVC DC = Free; HGVC = Free
> *Save Points:*                 MVC DC = Free; HGVC = $109
> *SKIM *                          MVC  DC = 1 night ; HGVC = None
> *Lock-off Fee:*                MVC DC  = Free    ; HGVC = n/a (points based system)
> *Exchange Program:*       MVC DC  = Free II  ;  HGVC = Free (internal system)
> (within system)           _(Marriott preference)_;
> *Exchange Program *       MVC Legacy = $189?/exchange (II); HGVC $239/exchange + Fixed Points (RCI) + resort fees.
> _   (external)                                                   _
> 
> 
> It would take 27 reservations in HGVC to break even with the enrollment fee difference. If one makes 2 reservations a year that is almost 14 years or 9 years if you make 3 a year.  Of course a waiver improves the break even. The annual dues are in the ballpark with each other. This does not factor in the other fees such as skim. I am a newbie so perhaps I did not get this right.
> 
> I am too new to Vistana to do a similar comparison.  Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could take a crack at this.
> 
> Edited to clarify/add updates from post below.



CalGalTraveler, here are some more considerations for your comparison.

Inventory Allocation
Marriott inventory allocation between points system and existing legacy (non enrolled) weeks - black box (nobody outside of Marriott itself knows how this is done)
HGVC - All properties have a window for weeks owners to reserve their home week(s), if the owners choose to reserve their home resort, before the remaining unreserved weeks are made available for booking via points. (Yes, this makes points users "second class" citizens.)

Point Acquisition
Marriott - Direct purchase of points; or conversion of legacy weeks (pre 6/2010) to point - with "skim" (roughly 15% of value)
HGVC - No direct purchase of points; all point tied to week ownership.

Disposition/transfer fees.
Marriott legacy weeks- normal closing costs; but loses access to point conversion (except package deals directly though Marriott)
Marriott points - normal closing costs, plus a $2 USD per point tariff for the exchange(s). (Applies for every exchange, subject to being raised, and it has been since initial inception.)
HGVC - normal closing costs, new owner joins points system as part of purchase. (There are some exceptions, where joining is voluntary, but the opportunity to join is always available at the standard transfer fee.)


----------



## VacationForever

Junk fees is now $3.00 per point as of April 2018.


----------



## TravelTime

Steve Fatula said:


> Yep, got that in February. I take the points. Points guy values then at .9 cents each, meaning, $270. When used wisely, they are worth more.



I agree Steve. We are using 40,000 points per night for 3 nights to stay at the Ritz Carlton later this year. Based on the internet price of about $500 per night for a basic room, it seems like a great use of Rewards points. Plus, based on our owner status at Executive level, we may get lucky and get a room upgrade. So I would also take the 30,000 points over $200. BTW, Steve, you are someone I also follow and enjoy reading your posts. You are factual and objective in a nice way. I am learning a lot from your posts and many other Tuggers.


----------



## SueDonJ

BocaBoy said:


> But in exchange for the skim, they do not charge fees for most transactions, which most non-skim systems do.





Steve Fatula said:


> Don't misunderstand, there is only skim if you trade your week for DC points. If you occupy, no skim. If you trade in II, no skim. So, it only applies for enrolled weeks that elect to trade for DC points.





Dean said:


> ... NO ONE lost anything they had before that was contractual.  They can still reserve and use their week with no loss.  While I would have preferred a smaller differential, having the additional choices and benefits of being enrolled is worth it to me.



All very good points but I'd challenge the one about "no skim in II."  For some highest-demand Weeks there has always been a "skim" factor when exchanging via II.  Comparing the actual exchange history of my 3BR non-lockoff high-season Weeks, taking into account all the II Accommodation Certificate and Two-For-One extras that were made available to me at the time, I could get exactly the same exchanges in the DC that I got in II AND it would leave me with a surplus of DC Points.  That's more exchange value from the DC than from II, in real practice.  Granted, there are few 3BR non-lockoffs in the MVW portfolio and most TUGgers are experts at uptrading when playing the II game, but this is still a point worth making in the overall conversation.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks @SueDonJ et al lots of good information to digest.  From a quick glance comparing an enrolled week (since that is what Vistana/Hyatt will probably be offered):
> 
> *Enrollment: *                  MVC DC = $2375  (but can be waived/grandfathered. Opt-in);   HGVC = $599 mandatory for all new properties (Dev & resale)
> *Annual Dues *(basic):     MVC DC $195 (includes II fee); HGVC = $159 (includes RCI fee)
> *Reservations:*                MVC  DC = free;  HGVC $65
> *Borrow Points: *             MVC DC = Free; HGVC = Free
> *Save Points:*                 MVC DC = Free; HGVC = $109
> *SKIM *                          MVC  DC = 1 night ; HGVC = None
> *Lock-off Fee:*                MVC DC  = Free    ; HGVC = n/a (points based system)
> *Exchange Program:*       MVC DC  = Free II  ;  HGVC = Free (internal system)
> (within system)           _(Marriott preference)_;
> *Exchange Program *       MVC Legacy = $189?/exchange (II); HGVC $239/exchange + Fixed Points (RCI) + resort fees.
> _   (external)                                                   _
> 
> 
> It would take 27 reservations in HGVC to break even with the enrollment fee difference. If one makes 2 reservations a year that is almost 14 years or 9 years if you make 3 a year.  Of course a waiver improves the break even. The annual dues are in the ballpark with each other. This does not factor in the other fees such as skim. I am a newbie so perhaps I did not get this right.
> 
> I am too new to Vistana to do a similar comparison.  Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could take a crack at this.
> 
> Edited to clarify/add updates from post below.



I politely disagree with your math on reservations. The enrolment difference is 2375 - 599 = 1776. But while there is a $65 reservation fee, there is also cheaper annual dues amount ($36 cheaper) which need to be taken in account.
So for a once a year reservation, it's 1776 / 29 (65-36) = 61 years. (of course for 2 reservations a year 1776 / 94 (65 + 65 - 36) = 18 years -  for 3 reservations a year, 1776 / 159 (65 + 65 + 65 -36) = 11 years.)


----------



## TravelTime

Marriott told me that if I buy an enrolled deeded week from them, they count how many points it is worth in addition to how many actual DC Trust Points I own, and then I would qualify for the member level of the total combination, even if I never convert. For example, let’s say I have 7000 DC points and I own an enrolled MKO week (using MKO just as an example), which is worth a little under 5000 points. The combination would be approximately 12,000 points and push me from Executive Level to Presidential Level, even if I never convert MKO to points. I have not actually bought an enrolled deeded week from Marriott so I am wondering if others have been able to achieve a higher membership level in this way?


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> Marriott told me that if I buy a deeded week from them, they count how many points it is worth in addition to how many actual DC Trust Points I own, and then I would qualify for the member level of the total combination, even if I never convert. For example, let’s say I have 7000 DC points and I own MKO which is worth a little under 5000 points. The combination would be 12,000 points and push me from Executive Level to Presidential Level, even if I never convert MKO to points. I have not actually bought a convertible deeded week from Marriott so I am wondering if others have been able to achieve a higher membership level in this way?


Any post June 2010 resale week bought through Marriott will not be counted in the status level nor convertible into points.  If it is bought in conjunction with points, aka hybrid or combo, then the week can be enrolled and counted.


----------



## Fasttr

VacationForever said:


> Any post June 2010 resale week bought through Marriott will not be counted in the status level nor convertible into points.  If it is bought in conjunction with points, aka hybrid or combo, then the week can be enrolled and counted.


I believe there are a few exceptions to that, where MVC is still selling enrollable weeks without the need to purchase points in a hybrid combo.  Aruba and Spain come to mind as examples I have seen posted about.


----------



## TravelTime

Fasttr said:


> I believe there are a few exceptions to that, where MVC is still selling enrollable weeks without the need to purchase points in a hybrid combo.  Aruba and Spain come to mind as examples I have seen posted about.



Yes, both Vacation Forever and Fasttr have validated what Marriott told me. They are selling hybrid packages as well as some enrolled weeks that do not require buying more points (From what I recall, I think Aruba, St Kitts and Newport Beach were available resale from Marriott as enrolled weeks at super high prices without the need to buy DC Trust Points.) In these instances, they told me the point value assigned to the enrolled week would count toward the higher membership level, even if I never convert the enrolled week into points. So I am glad I got the correct information from the sales rep. I have not done it and not sure I will since now I want to wait and see what happens with the new program. I am hoping current owners will have new options to enroll our post-2010 weeks from Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt at a reasonable fee.


----------



## VacationForever

Fasttr said:


> I believe there are a few exceptions to that, where MVC is still selling enrollable weeks without the need to purchase points in a hybrid combo.  Aruba and Spain come to mind as examples I have seen posted about.


Ah yes, I was only thinking about US resorts.


----------



## SueDonJ

TravelTime said:


> Marriott told me that if I buy an enrolled deeded week from them, they count how many points it is worth in addition to how many actual DC Trust Points I own, and then I would qualify for the member level of the total combination, even if I never convert. For example, let’s say I have 7000 DC points and I own MKO which is worth a little under 5000 points. The combination would be approximately 12,000 points and push me from Executive Level to Presidential Level, even if I never convert MKO to points. I have not actually bought an enrolled deeded week from Marriott so I am wondering if others have been able to achieve a higher membership level in this way?





VacationForever said:


> Any post June 2010 resale week bought through Marriott will not be counted in the status level nor convertible into points.  If it is bought in conjunction with points, aka hybrid or combo, then the week can be enrolled and counted.



On the basic question, yes it's true that ownership level/status in the DC is determined by the total number of combined Trust (purchased) and Exchange (value of enrolled Weeks) Points in a Member's account.

It can be possible for an existing Trust Member (owner of purchased DC Points) to purchase an internal resale Week which Resales Operations will allow to be enrolled.  There may be some qualifying factors, i.e. the dates of both purchases and/or the amount of Trust Points owned compared to the Exchange Points value of the Week, but effectively they're allowed some leeway from the basic eligibility rules to put together what's called "Hybrid" packages.  I'd be more inclined to believe a Resales Operations employee than an onsite Sales Associate when evaluating if such a purchase is the real deal but it's possible from either.  Just make sure you get the specifics in writing before you commit any money to it.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Steve Fatula said:


> Skim does not apply to points really (other than a token one as pointed out by Superchief above and only in that use case). It applies to enrolled legacy weeks, and only if you elect to convert them that year to points. Borrow points is indeed "free" with MVC, and is save (bank) points. To add to your chart, trading in II to another Marriott is $0 for a legacy week (not points), included in that Annual Dues. As is locking off your unit. For this reason, your chart is misleading. At least I think so.



So if I understand this correctly, a legacy week owner could opt to trade the entire week (or lock-off) to another Marriott via II preference (size for size) and avoid the DC enrollment fee and annual DC club dues for this?  But would pay for II membership.

The benefit of DC conversion is that it provides more flexibility for shorter stays, mid-week check-in, and borrowing/saving points from another year to make a longer stay or better unit.  It is a points based overlay to the legacy weeks structure. And it is not transferable to resale purchasers of your unit.


----------



## chemteach

CalGalTraveler said:


> So if I understand this correctly, a legacy week owner could opt to trade the entire week (or lock-off) to another Marriott via II preference (size for size) and avoid the DC enrollment fee and annual DC club dues for this?  But would pay for II membership.
> 
> The benefit of DC conversion is that it provides more flexibility for shorter stays, mid-week check-in, and borrowing/saving points from another year to make a longer stay or better unit.  It is a points based overlay to the legacy weeks structure. And it is not transferable to resale purchasers of your unit.



This is my understanding as well.  I am curious whether Presidential, Chairman, etc. status also gives some sort of benefit in the Marriott Rewards Points world.  It will be interesting to find out (if Vistana and Marriott timeshare companies are somehow combined into a new overlay system) if the new system would give a special status in the hotel side MRP world, and what the levels of ownership needed would be to obtain such a status (again, IF VAC creates a combined overlay system and then IF status in MRP is provided to people with several units/points in the new new system).  (That statement brought me way back to my college days learning Fortran!!    )


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> I politely disagree with your math on reservations. The enrolment difference is 2375 - 599 = 1776. But while there is a $65 reservation fee, there is also cheaper annual dues amount ($36 cheaper) which need to be taken in account.
> So for a once a year reservation, it's 1776 / 29 (65-36) = 61 years. (of course for 2 reservations a year 1776 / 94 (65 + 65 - 36) = 18 years -  for 3 reservations a year, 1776 / 159 (65 + 65 + 65 -36) = 11 years.)



Thank you for the updates and clarifications @Ralph Sir Edward.  You are correct. My initial post was a "back of the envelope" and this calculation makes the break-even even worse; we Vistana and Hyatt owners will be watching that enrollment fee offer like a hawk given the alternatives for trading!

FWIW...If they remove StarOptions from our mandatory Vistana property in exchange for enrolling in DC, this will be a deal-breaker because it will reduce the value of the property because we cannot transfer StarOption trading rights to resale buyers.

To help the community, (and help me to sort through this merger), I would like to get post #152 and your comments updated into a Google Doc spreadsheet so we can make this more readable and include programs such as Worldmark and DVC. I am busy at work today so if someone would like to take the initiative to populate a Google Doc spreadsheet with the existing info from post #152 that so we can crowdsource updates, I would not mind.  Otherwise I will try to find some cycles to start later.


----------



## SueDonJ

CalGalTraveler said:


> So if I understand this correctly, a legacy week owner could opt to trade the entire week (or lock-off) to another Marriott via II preference (size for size) and avoid the DC enrollment fee and annual DC club dues for this?  But would pay for II membership. ...



When a Week is enrolled the owner is assigned a new corporate II account.  The annual DC Club Dues fee covers that membership as well as the fees for most II exchanges processed through that account, provided that the exchanges involve _only_ Marriott resorts.  You can exchange through that account to non-Marriott resorts but any ongoing requests for non-Marriott resorts and any exchanges to non-Marriott resorts will be charged the same fee as if they had been processed through an individual account.  The corporate account is the same as an individual account as far as Getaways, AC's, etc



CalGalTraveler said:


> The benefit of DC conversion is that it provides more flexibility for shorter stays, mid-week check-in, and borrowing/saving points from another year to make a longer stay or better unit.  It is a points based overlay to the legacy weeks structure. And it is not transferable to resale purchasers of your unit.



Correct.  In addition, once externally-resold the new owner will not be able to re-enroll it because the Week then becomes ineligible based on the purchase date.

The other benefit to using Points in the DC Exchange Company as compared to Weeks in II is, with Points you can guarantee the view type because the Points Charts differentiate those while II does not make any guarantees as to view.


----------



## Steve Fatula

CalGalTraveler said:


> So if I understand this correctly, a legacy week owner could opt to trade the entire week (or lock-off) to another Marriott via II preference (size for size) and avoid the DC enrollment fee and annual DC club dues for this?  But would pay for II membership.
> 
> The benefit of DC conversion is that it provides more flexibility for shorter stays, mid-week check-in, and borrowing/saving points from another year to make a longer stay or better unit.  It is a points based overlay to the legacy weeks structure. And it is not transferable to resale purchasers of your unit.



An *enrolled* legacy week owner can II exchange to another Marriott with no additional cost. Enrolled means you are paying the annual dues for the DC program, have all of the benefits, and can elect to exchange your week for DC points (or not). Think of it this way, one can keep their legacy week non enrolled and it will work as it always did. The problem with that is if you exchange a lot, you will pay II membership, lockoff fee, exchange fee, all of which I did before the DC program. That adds up to more than the annual dues of the DC program (which includes II membership). So, if one is already a member of the DC program, it usually makes sense to enroll as you are already paying the annual dues already anyway, and, your total usage fees then go down. The key word is enrolled. The week was already owned by me. There is no enrollment fee, *not sure what you mean by that*? I paid nothing to enroll my week. Many today are also paying nothing to enroll their pre 2010 legacy weeks. You can also purchase points + enrolled week packages, again, there is no enrollment fee. There are terms here that might be throwing you off, I know it seems complicated but it's not really. Yes, these are not complete examples as their are always variations and little twists possible but in general, this is the way to look at it. Enrollment of my week has (and is) saved me a lot of money. 

There are other benefits to the DC program. Other benefits include other ways to use your vacation, choice of view or room type (unlike exchanges), discounts on points to reserve based of membership level within 30 or 60 days, Marriott rewards status based on membership level, ability to purchase DC points for use from others who own them (not permanent points, consider them as rentals if you are short), in some cases much better availability for certain resorts, 13 months out reservations. etc.


----------



## SueDonJ

Might be talking to myself here but I just want to make clear that once a Week is DC-enrolled, the annual Club Dues fee has to be paid for the Week to remain enrolled regardless of whether an owner elects to convert that Week to DC Points or use it in a traditional manner in any given year.  If the Club Dues fee is unpaid, enrollment expires and re-enrollment by the same owner will be subject to the enrollment fees and eligibility rules in effect at the time of re-enrollment.


----------



## GregT

SueDonJ said:


> All very good points but I'd challenge the one about "no skim in II."  For some highest-demand Weeks there has always been a "skim" factor when exchanging via II.



I agree with Sue regarding the II and skimming -- we may get "like for like" in terms of room size (if you are lucky with the availability) but you should expect to get downgraded with respect to View.   I also accept a downgrade in room size to increase odds of successful trade.   When trading into MOC with my Willow, I will use the full 2BR Willow to get a 1BR at MMO (typically MG).  Is that a skim?  In that instance I do not think so because I value the MOC space greatly.

However trading a MOC OF Studio for a MKO Studio, that's always a Skim (and why I never do it) because it's OF for OV (or MG).

Best,

Greg


----------



## Steve Fatula

GregT said:


> I agree with Sue -- we may get "like for like" in terms of room size (if you are lucky with the availability) but you should expect to get downgraded with respect to View.   I also accept a downgrade in room size to increase odds of successful trade.   When trading into MOC with my Willow, I will use the full 2BR Willow to get a 1BR at MMO (typically MG).  Is that a skim?  In that instance I do not think so because I value the MOC space greatly.
> 
> However trading a MOC OF Studio for a MKO Studio, that's always a Skim (and why I never do it) because it's OF for OV (or MG).
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Very true, in some cases you will never get what you started with. That being said, it's not a skim at all. A skim applies to all. This does not. I suspect the majority of people do not lose out as we don't all have OV, and, many properties have no such concept. So, for us, it is not the case at all. Generally, I have gained on my trades, so, just saying it's not a skim. Trading a studio into a 2BR Ko Olina is definitely a win! So I agree with the main concept, you don't always win on a trade and can definitely lose view assuming you started with one, it's not a skim in any sense of the way it works for DC points and trading your week.


----------



## Dean

SueDonJ said:


> All very good points but I'd challenge the one about "no skim in II."  For some highest-demand Weeks there has always been a "skim" factor when exchanging via II.  Comparing the actual exchange history of my 3BR non-lockoff high-season Weeks, taking into account all the II Accommodation Certificate and Two-For-One extras that were made available to me at the time, I could get exactly the same exchanges in the DC that I got in II AND it would leave me with a surplus of DC Points.  That's more exchange value from the DC than from II, in real practice.  Granted, there are few 3BR non-lockoffs in the MVW portfolio and most TUGgers are experts at uptrading when playing the II game, but this is still a point worth making in the overall conversation.


It would depend on the specifics.  Trading high end options has always been a much better value if trading up and there has always been a "loss" for a lateral exchange.  Let's say I traded my MGO OF week for a different week there.  I pay for the exchange, I likely won't get an OF and I'll lose my unit assignment priority.  But if I trade my WR studio & 1 BR for two 1 BR at Ko Olina through my corporate account, I might get an OV unit (I own a MV there), I upgraded my studio to a 1BR & I might actually get an upgraded view rather than the 1850 points I'd get for the 2 BR.  But this was all true before DC points, it's just there are additional options and considerations.


----------



## SueDonJ

GregT said:


> I agree with Sue -- we may get "like for like" in terms of room size (if you are lucky with the availability) but you should expect to get downgraded with respect to View.   I also accept a downgrade in room size to increase odds of successful trade.   When trading into MOC with my Willow, I will use the full 2BR Willow to get a 1BR at MMO (typically MG).  Is that a skim?  In that instance I do not think so because I value the MOC space greatly.
> 
> However trading a MOC OF Studio for a MKO Studio, that's always a Skim (and why I never do it) because it's OF for OV (or MG).
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



None of my exchanges were lucky enough to match a 3BR to a 3BR in II - all of them were to 2BR, and that was only after I declined the 1BR units that II called and asked me to accept.  And with Marriott actively finagling exchange inventory to prioritize owners exchanging back in to their home resorts, more of my II stays were view downgrades both with respect to the views I deposited AND to the unit/view type indicated on the II confirmation.  I also have been unlucky with II in that the resort personnel never kept me in the same units for consecutive stays, which many TUGgers report happens routinely with their exchanges.

I don't know what it is about me and II but my experience over the years was never as positive as that of most TUGgers, despite me taking direction from them and being civil in all my dealings with II.  Since the day the DC was introduced I haven't used II for anything but Getaways, and I'm one very happy camper for two reasons - first that I don't have to play in that infuriating II sandbox anymore, and second that Marriott allowed existing Weeks owners to play in the DC without requiring a Trust Points purchase!


----------



## Steve Fatula

SueDonJ said:


> None of my exchanges were lucky enough to match a 3BR to a 3BR in II - all of them were to 2BR, and that was only after I declined the 1BR units that II called and asked me to accept.  And with Marriott actively finagling exchange inventory to prioritize owners exchanging back in to their home resorts, more of my II stays were view downgrades both with respect to the views I deposited AND to the unit/view type indicated on the II confirmation.  I also have been unlucky with II in that the resort personnel never kept me in the same units for consecutive stays, which many TUGgers report happens routinely with their exchanges.
> 
> I don't know what it is about me and II but my experience over the years was never as positive as that of most TUGgers, despite me taking direction from them and being civil in all my dealings with II.  Since the day the DC was introduced I haven't used II for anything but Getaways, and I'm one very happy camper for two reasons - first that I don't have to play in that infuriating II sandbox anymore, and second that Marriott allowed existing Weeks owners to play in the DC without requiring a Trust Points purchase!



I suspect your troubles were (at least):

1. 3BR, there are not tons of those in the system
2. Your ownership view, you have a nice unit
3. You are therefore an outlier

I don't think most of us are in that condition. If I were you, I likely would never trade either. You are spot on, it's nice that you can use the DC and not deal with the constraints in your case. That really was a good thing Marriott did there. For the rest of us, we just have a unit somewhere, no views, just a 2BR or 1BR. We're often happy because:

1. We wouldn't be trading somewhere if we didn't want to go there
2. It is almost certain we will get a like for like or better if we give some lead time, and the token unit size upgrade fee is more than worth it. Trading my desert studio into Ko Olina? Gladly pay the upgrade fee since it's a *massive* upgrade. 
3. We are many times going to "nicer" places.
4. Sometimes, rarely, we luck out and actually get a view as a bonus. We were not really looking for one, but if we get it, bonus. As opposed to you who are expecting one since you have one. 
5. We don't worry about it much as our MFs are much lower, so, we almost always get more MF than we traded. 

Definitely no one size fits all for how to use. In our case, we would never trade into Orlando for example as we would consider that a loss. I use getaways for Orlando as weeks are often super cheap for much of the year.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward

VacationForever said:


> Junk fees is now $3.00 per point as of April 2018.


I was unaware of the fee hike, but it is not surprising.

Here is the rough math. (Bases on the latest HGVC Oahu tower. Enough of the costs leaked to make a rough calculation.)

On average, 1/2 of the selling price goes to Sales cost. Of the other 1/2, 2/3rds goes for the actual construction costs, and 1/3 is profit to the Timeshare company.

Now with DC point at $14 a point, that is $7 for sales, $4.66 for construction, leaving $2.34 net profit to MVC (on initial sale).

On resale of points, there is no sales cost. (bourne by the owner), no construction costs (already paid for by the initial sale), separate fees to cover the total expense of title transfer, and $3.00 (now) goes to profit for MVC.

Each resale, every resale. With weeks, MVC only got the initial sales profit. Nothing on any resale of weeks. See how much happier MVC is with points?

(Now this is rough math. Cost spreads could be shifted around somewhat. The general concept remains the same.)


----------



## SueDonJ

Steve Fatula said:


> Very true, in some cases you will never get what you started with. That being said, it's not a skim at all. A skim applies to all. This does not. I suspect the majority of people do not lose out as we don't all have OV, and, many properties have no such concept. So, for us, it is not the case at all. Generally, I have gained on my trades, so, just saying it's not a skim. Trading a studio into a 2BR Ko Olina is definitely a win! So I agree with the main concept, you don't always win on a trade and can definitely lose view assuming you started with one, it's not a skim in any sense of the way it works for DC points and trading your week.



We'll have to disagree, Steve.  As far as I'm concerned, based on unit size, placement and consecutive-stay priority, all of my II exchanges were a downgrade of what I own.  All of it was no different than a DC Points Member having to accept  - when exchanging their Week for Points - a smaller unit, lesser view and lower priority in the placement hierarchy.  You can call it what you like but it's all the same skim to me.  



Steve Fatula said:


> I suspect your troubles were (at least):
> 
> 1. 3BR, there are not tons of those in the system
> 2. Your ownership view, you have a nice unit
> 3. You are therefore an outlier
> 
> I don't think most of us are in that condition. If I were you, I likely would never trade either. You are spot on, it's nice that you can use the DC and not deal with the constraints in your case. That really was a good thing Marriott did there. For the rest of us, we just have a unit somewhere, no views, just a 2BR or 1BR. We're often happy because:
> 
> 1. We wouldn't be trading somewhere if we didn't want to go there
> 2. It is almost certain we will get a like for like or better if we give some lead time, and the token unit size upgrade fee is more than worth it. Trading my desert studio into Ko Olina? Gladly pay the upgrade fee since it's a *massive* upgrade.
> 3. We are many times going to "nicer" places.
> 4. Sometimes, rarely, we luck out and actually get a view as a bonus. We were not really looking for one, but if we get it, bonus. As opposed to you who are expecting one since you have one.
> 5. We don't worry about it much as our MFs are much lower, so, we almost always get more MF than we traded.
> 
> Definitely no one size fits all for how to use. In our case, we would never trade into Orlando for example as we would consider that a loss. I use getaways for Orlando as weeks are often super cheap for much of the year.



Mostly correct, except I never had unreasonable expectations of II exchanges.  It was my Marriott sales rep who explained to us before we purchased that views were not guaranteed in II and that very few 3BRs were deposited to II.  The practically-guaranteed downgrades only became irritating when I learned from TUGgers that the things which might offset all my downgrades weren't being offered to me - AC's for high-demand inventory, Two-for-One certs for accepting a smaller unit, etc.  I didn't ever want more than I should have been entitled to, but I did want as much as what others were apparently getting.  Not having it offered to me was par for the course, asking nicely for it and being declined was infuriating.

But we're way off into the "skim" weeds here which probably isn't helping in this overall speculation related to how Marriott may integrate newly-acquired companies into the DC, if the acquisition goes through and if integration is allowed.  Let's leave this at a point which TUG reached within the first year of the DC introduction - skim or no skim, whether what they ultimately may offer will be advantageous or not will depend completely on what you own and how you use it.


----------



## bazzap

GregT said:


> I agree with Sue regarding the II and skimming -- we may get "like for like" in terms of room size (if you are lucky with the availability) but you should expect to get downgraded with respect to View.   I also accept a downgrade in room size to increase odds of successful trade.   When trading into MOC with my Willow, I will use the full 2BR Willow to get a 1BR at MMO (typically MG).  Is that a skim?  In that instance I do not think so because I value the MOC space greatly.
> 
> However trading a MOC OF Studio for a MKO Studio, that's always a Skim (and why I never do it) because it's OF for OV (or MG).
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


I guess I must just have been lucky with II exchanges and/or the MVC resorts I have gone to, even though I do multiple exchanges every year.
I have never downgraded unit size, mostly I have upgraded from studios to 2 or even 3 bed units.
(albeit I now have to pay upgrade fees for those)
I have also never been downgraded with respect to view.
Mostly my exchanges are tagged on to Home resort stays, which must certainly help, but not always.


----------



## DannyTS

suzannesimon said:


> I have a week at Westin Lagunamar and it is my favorite timeshare.  Some of the  other Vistana properties - Harborside and Kierland Villas, possibly others, have 2 full 1-bedroom lockoffs which are better than the studio-1 bedroom layout.  One downside though is that Vistana doesn't have ovens which I wish they did so I could make a turkey at Thanksgiving.


It is also interesting to note that Marriott only has Aruba in the Caribbean if i am not mistaken. If  they make a certain proposal for  VSN owners, i am curious to see if they will offer a premium to Westin Lagunamar Cancun owners since Marriott may need those weeks more than in other resorts.


----------



## Steve Fatula

DannyTS said:


> It is also interesting to note that Marriott only has Aruba in the Caribbean if i am not mistaken. If  they make a certain proposal for  VSN owners, i am curious to see if they will offer a premium to Westin Lagunamar Cancun owners since Marriott may need those weeks more than in other resorts.



St Kitts and St Thomas too.


----------



## DannyTS

Steve Fatula said:


> St Kitts and St Thomas too.


you are 100% correct. My point still stands since there is no overlap in the Carribean: would they offer a premium to Cancun for example vs Orlando? Disclosure, i own both WLR and SVV Bella.


----------



## dioxide45

DannyTS said:


> you are 100% correct. My point still stands since there is no overlap in the Carribean: would they offer a premium to Cancun for example vs Orlando? Disclosure, i own both WLR and SVV Bella.


Vistana is bringing a lot of Mexican inventory online over the next few years. They have recently opened the Westin Cancun Resort & Spa along with Los Cabos. Puerto Vallarta should be coming online in 2020 or 2021. Lagunamar has never really been a difficult StarOption trade in VSN except for holiday and peak season. I do expect that they would offer Ocean Side owners at Laguanamar a premium. All the other properties are in the Westin Aventuras program where if they offer something it will be an SO to DC ratio.

When they rolled out DC in 2010, it was initially said that the amount of DC points offered were more closely related to the purchase price, more so than said supply/demand. Many people noticed it was close to the last known selling price divided by 10. I don't know how true that is. The problem with Cancun is that there is so much inventory, everywhere. Hotels from $100 a night along with fairly reasonable all inclusives. For whatever reason, Cancun has never been a huge draw in VSN. The people that go there, including us, love it but there are also those that hate it. It would be the same in DC I would think.


----------



## DannyTS

dioxide45 said:


> Vistana is bringing a lot of Mexican inventory online over the next few years. They have recently opened the Westin Cancun Resort & Spa along with Los Cabos. Puerto Vallarta should be coming online in 2020 or 2021. Lagunamar has never really been a difficult StarOption trade in VSN except for holiday and peak season. I do expect that they would offer Ocean Side owners at Laguanamar a premium. All the other properties are in the Westin Aventuras program where if they offer something it will be an SO to DC ratio.
> 
> When they rolled out DC in 2010, it was initially said that the amount of DC points offered were more closely related to the purchase price, more so than said supply/demand. I don't know how true that is.


Thank you.


----------



## DannyTS

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thank you for the updates and clarifications @Ralph Sir Edward.
> 
> FWIW...If they remove StarOptions from our mandatory Vistana property in exchange for enrolling in DC, this will be a deal-breaker because it will reduce the value of the property because we cannot transfer StarOption trading rights to resale buyers.
> 
> .



It will also be a deal breaker because of the expected skimming. But removing StarOptions can be a hard nut to crack. In the declaration of Condominium of Bella Florida not only it is stated that the owners are automatically members of the club but also that the StarOptions are the trading "currency". I assume that similar language was used for the other mandatory resorts.


----------



## DannyTS

TravelTime said:


> I am hoping they might convert my 176K SO for WKOVN-OF to an equivalent number of DC Points so I can either use my deeded week or trade within the new program’s 100+ timeshare resorts. The problem with StarOptions now is I own one of the best Vistana properties so I would rarely exchange within the VSE network unless I could get another Maui OF 2 bedroom or I could go to WSJ. If I could get enough DC Points to exchange my WKOVR-N OF for an equivalent Hawaii or Caribbean OF 2 bedroom, then I think I would be better off if Marriott gets rid of Star Options and converts my Star Options into DC Points. That would thoroughly enhance my like-for-like trading options. The only open issue is whether Marriott would take away the ability to resell mandatory resorts with DC Points, if it gets rid of StarOptions. The down side here is it may devalue the resale value of the mandatory resorts. However, if they roll it out right, maybe things would be fine. The VSE mandatory resorts are already pretty cheap compared to equivalent Marriott resorts in similar destinations and these do not transfer with the ability to enroll in the DC program. Since I own all OF/OV units as well as other high end timeshares, I lose if I deposit in II. I only use II and RCI for Getaways.



The problem with the conversion is that you may become a second class citizen if the rate is not fair. Your 176K SO for WKOVN-OF (2 bedroom right) at a 30 to 1 (as some suggested) would give you 5886 DC points while to reserve a prime 2 bedroom OF at Marriott in Hawaii you need 7500-9500 DC points (some weeks as high as 10,000 points. Even 25:1 is not enough, probably 20:1 is  starting to make more sense although some weeks of the year may still be out of reach for you in Hawaii unless you are trading down.


----------



## BocaBoy

I am a bit amused by these so-called analyses that conclude that II trading gets values you could never get with DC points.  In reality, it all depends on what you are trying to get.  Most of the analyses involve trading for high season weeks at the top resorts.  In our case, we like to use DC points to trade into places like Hilton Head in the off season (which for us is a more enjoyable trip than in the summer).  In II, the best we could do would be to lock off our Maui week and get two HHI weeks, plus perhaps a bonus week, and now the HHI weeks would also require upgrade fees.  With DC points a couple years ago, we used the points from our Maui week to book 30 consecutive ocean front days in January at Grande Ocean, and we still had approximately 1/3 of the Maui points left over to use elsewhere.  When the system can yield values like this, it is hard for me to get upset over some "skim."


----------



## DannyTS

BocaBoy said:


> I am a bit amused by these so-called analyses that conclude that II trading gets values you could never get with DC points.  In reality, it all depends on what you are trying to get.  Most of the analyses involve trading for high season weeks at the top resorts.  In our case, we like to use DC points to trade into places like Hilton Head in the off season (which for us is a more enjoyable trip than in the summer).  In II, the best we could do would be to lock off our Maui week and get two HHI weeks, plus perhaps a bonus week, and now the HHI weeks would also require upgrade fees.  With DC points a couple years ago, we used the points from our Maui week to book 30 consecutive ocean front days in January at Grande Ocean, and we still had approximately 1/3 of the Maui points left over to use elsewhere.  When the system can yield values like this, it is hard for me to get upset over some "skim."


It is great it works for you. Unfortunately many people do not have the flexibility to travel off season because of kids, work etc.


----------



## mjm1

GregT said:


> All, don't we always do predictions (that lack any factual basis) when something major is announced?
> 
> I would like to make my predictions as follows:
> 
> 1) Marriott-to-Marriott preference trading via II will remain unchanged (and similar results as the past)
> 2) Starwood-to-Starwood preference trading via II will remain unchanged (and similar results as the past)
> 3) Starwood owners will continue to be able to trade to other Starwood properties using StarOptions
> 4) Starwood owners wishing to book Marriott properties (not via II trade) will need to buy Trust Points (which enrolls the Starwood week)
> 5) Marriott owners wishing to book Starwood properties (not via II trade) will need to use Trust Points
> 6) Some Starwood inventory will be deposited into the Trust for WSJ and the four Mexico properties
> 7) Hyatt properties will only be accessible to Starwood/Marriott owners via II trade
> 8) II trade fees will continue to increase
> 9) We will continue to see hotel conversions of Starwood/Marriott properties as the primarily source of new properties
> 10) Those hotel conversions will be deposited into the Marriott Trust
> 11) HGVC will become a hot target, as Diamond and Wyndham look to compete with Marriott's planted flag in the high-end space
> 12) Directly purchased Trust Points (and grandfathered Trust Points) will become valuable
> 13) There will be an amnesty for post-2010 weeks to be enrolled (for a fee), but time will prove that Elected Points are powerful in the Marriott system and less so for the broader system that is being created.
> 
> I do think if anyone is on the fence about buying Trust Points (resale), you should buy them now before the merger is completed.   I am speculating, but I believe that Trust Points will be the skeleton key that accesses everything.   And that Marriott will discriminate between Directly purchased Trust Points and resale Trust Points -- but will grandfather existing resales, kind of like the pre-2010/post-2010 weeks.  Wyndham discriminates between resale points and directly purchased points, and Marriott could too.
> 
> This opens up an entire universe of potential Trust Point purchasers to Marriott and they must be salivating like Pavlov's dog.   We will see pictures of Westin St. John, Cancun and Cabo San Lucas in every Marriott sales office -- and Starwood sales offices will show Aruba, Newport Coast and the Big Island.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.  I do not think it will be harmful for us, and there will be benefits if there is a post-2010 amnesty (since now Marriott needs even more Marriott inventory available because of the potential demand).   This is all *pure speculation*, but this is what I would do if I was designing the system.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Greg and all, a question regarding Hyatt with regards to the acquisition. 

Greg mentioned in his speculation that Hyatt owners may have to use II to gain access to MVC or Vistana properties, but Vistana owners could get access to MVC by buying points. Today I saw a transcript of MVC’s earnings call yesterday (5/3) and they referred to MVC and VSE, but didn’t mention Hyatt. My question is, is there something in the Hyatt sale of HRC to ILG that would keep other major brands like MVC from buying and integrating HRC into their program? I found Greg’s comment and the verbiage of the earnings call very interesting. Would love to hear what others think about this.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## dioxide45

mjm1 said:


> Greg and all, a question regarding Hyatt with regards to the acquisition.
> 
> Greg mentioned in his speculation that Hyatt owners may have to use II to gain access to MVC or Vistana properties, but Vistana owners could get access to MVC by buying points. Today I saw a transcript of MVC’s earnings call yesterday (5/3) and they referred to MVC and VSE, but didn’t mention Hyatt. My question is, is there something in the Hyatt sale of HRC to ILG that would keep other major brands like MVC from buying and integrating HRC into their program? I found Greg’s comment and the verbiage of the earnings call very interesting. Would love to hear what others think about this.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike


I think just the fact that Hyatt is a competing brand to Marriott International may cause some heartburn if they try to integrate it with the other brands. I think that Hyatt has or had something in their licensing agreement with ILG that they could pull out if ILG or Hyatt Residence Club was sold to a competing brand. While it wasn't technically sold to a competing brand (VAC), the brands that VAC will own all fall under a license agreement with a competing hotel brand. I would expect them to integrate Westin and Sheraton in to the DC program and potentially leave HRC out on its own.


----------



## dioxide45

DannyTS said:


> It is great it works for you. Unfortunately many people do not have the flexibility to travel off season because of kids, work etc.


I would agree, and it really only works for a certain prime weeks and resorts. For a Grande Vista lock off, we do much better trading through II by locking off and trading two for one, in most cases scoring an upgrade (with a fee of course).


----------



## PerryKing

thinze3 said:


> It will without doubt enhance your ownership by giving you more access to incredible places. For Hyatt, think Beaver Creek, Cabo, and Texas Hill Country. We stayed at Sheraton Vistana Resort Villas in Orlando years ago and loved it. We stayed at Westin Ka'anapali years ago and loved it even more.  One of of favorite timeshare stays ever.


Cabo ?  Hyatt Residence Club ?  I don't think so !  There is no Hyatt Residence club in Cabo, or outside the USA and Puerto Rico for that matter.


----------



## PerryKing

RLS50 said:


> If you have any interest in Cancun, the Westin Lagunamar is outstanding.   We also spent time at the JW Marriott in Cancun (including Club 91 access) and while we do enjoy the JW Marriott property, and it has some nice features, overall we think WLR is better.  In my opinion WLR is one of the best planned and best laid out properties anywhere.


YES ! Laguna Del Mar is super nice. and directly across the street from the La Isla outdoor shopping center.


----------



## dioxide45

I know that Marriott has been trying to sell their land in Cancun for many years. I doubt now that they would ever develop it unless they plan to never merge the two programs in some way. The Marriott land in Cancun was in a pretty good spot. The only thing between it and Lagunamar is Live Aqua. The only issue is that it is a pretty small footprint. It would have had to be a highrise type structure vs the more low profile of Lagunamar.


----------



## mjm1

dioxide45 said:


> I think just the fact that Hyatt is a competing brand to Marriott International may cause some heartburn if they try to integrate it with the other brands. I think that Hyatt has or had something in their licensing agreement with ILG that they could pull out if ILG or Hyatt Residence Club was sold to a competing brand. While it wasn't technically sold to a competing brand (VAC), the brands that VAC will own all fall under a license agreement with a competing hotel brand. I would expect them to integrate Westin and Sheraton in to the DC program and potentially leave HRC out on its own.



Dioxide, thanks for your insights. That makes sense and the result for access to Hyatt properties would be no different than it is today.

Mike


----------



## rog2867

mjm1 said:


> Dioxide, thanks for your insights. That makes sense and the result for access to Hyatt properties would be no different than it is today.
> 
> Mike


speculating is such a waste of time, this just happened and even they don't know how this will all shake out.


----------



## dioxide45

rog2867 said:


> speculating is such a waste of time, this just happened and even they don't know how this will all shake out.


It may be a waste of time, but it doesn't make it any less fun...


----------



## BocaBoy

DannyTS said:


> It is great it works for you. Unfortunately many people do not have the flexibility to travel off season because of kids, work etc.


That is very true and I never said anything inconsistent with this.  My point was simply that many people are making blanket statements that either directly say or imply that it is almost universally true that you get better values from II trades than DC points.  This is not an accurate statement and is very dependent on what one's particular needs and desires are.  We have almost stopped using II because we get much more value from DC points (off season; last 60 days; guaranteed view; etc.).


----------



## mjm1

dioxide45 said:


> It may be a waste of time, but it doesn't make it any less fun...



I think it’s also helpful to consider these different potential outcomes, so once the actual plans are disclosed it’s not the first time one has thought about it. It may make one’s decision making process a little easier once an opprotunity is presented.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## GregT

The Starwood thread on this same topic is also interesting.  A question for Marriott owners —-> do we really care about the access to the Starwood portfolio?

St John is nice, but so is St Thomas
Mission Hills is nice, but so is Palm Desert
Maui is nice, but we have that. 
Kauai is nice, but we have that. 

Mexico is new and is a cool addition

Bahamas is new, that’s also a cool addition. 

So...just curious if we strip away the interesting news — what is most attractive to Marriott owners about Starwood?

(This is Starwood focused, because I personally am skeptical about getting access to Hyatt other than thru II, as we do today.  I could be wrong on that.) 

I look forward to comments of others. 

Best,

Greg


----------



## Fasttr

GregT said:


> The Starwood thread on this same topic is also interesting.  A question for Marriott owners —-> do we really care about the access to the Starwood portfolio?
> 
> St John is nice, but so is St Thomas
> Mission Hills is nice, but so is Palm Desert
> Maui is nice, but we have that.
> Kauai is nice, but we have that.
> 
> Mexico is new and is a cool addition
> 
> Bahamas is new, that’s also a cool addition.
> 
> So...just curious if we strip away the interesting news — what is most attractive to Marriott owners about Starwood?
> 
> (This is Starwood focused, because I personally am skeptical about getting access to Hyatt other than thru II, as we do today.  I could be wrong on that.)
> 
> I look forward to comments of others.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


Would I welcome the additional options.....yes.

Would I pay more to access them....no


----------



## kds4

CalGalTraveler said:


> So if I understand this correctly, a legacy week owner could opt to trade the entire week (or lock-off) to another Marriott via II preference (size for size) and avoid the DC enrollment fee and annual DC club dues for this?  But would pay for II membership.
> 
> The benefit of DC conversion is that it provides more flexibility for shorter stays, mid-week check-in, and borrowing/saving points from another year to make a longer stay or better unit.  It is a points based overlay to the legacy weeks structure. And it is not transferable to resale purchasers of your unit.



II also offers the ability to stay for less than a week. Do a search on the Interval site for 'Short-Stay Exchanges' and you will find the information. Essentially, each week deposited in Interval can be split into 2 short stay exchanges of up to 6 nights each. Not all destinations are available, but if you can find desired locations you can get up to 12 nights from a single 7 night deposit.


----------



## Powderday

GregT said:


> The Starwood thread on this same topic is also interesting.  A question for Marriott owners —-> do we really care about the access to the Starwood portfolio?
> 
> St John is nice, but so is St Thomas
> Mission Hills is nice, but so is Palm Desert
> Maui is nice, but we have that.
> Kauai is nice, but we have that.
> 
> Mexico is new and is a cool addition
> 
> Bahamas is new, that’s also a cool addition.
> 
> So...just curious if we strip away the interesting news — what is most attractive to Marriott owners about Starwood?
> 
> (This is Starwood focused, because I personally am skeptical about getting access to Hyatt other than thru II, as we do today.  I could be wrong on that.)
> 
> I look forward to comments of others.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


----------



## Powderday

For the few of us crazies who enjoy snow-covered mountains instead of beaches;
Westin Riverfront
Sheraton Steamboat


----------



## bazzap

GregT said:


> The Starwood thread on this same topic is also interesting.  A question for Marriott owners —-> do we really care about the access to the Starwood portfolio?
> 
> St John is nice, but so is St Thomas
> Mission Hills is nice, but so is Palm Desert
> Maui is nice, but we have that.
> Kauai is nice, but we have that.
> 
> Mexico is new and is a cool addition
> 
> Bahamas is new, that’s also a cool addition.
> 
> So...just curious if we strip away the interesting news — what is most attractive to Marriott owners about Starwood?
> 
> (This is Starwood focused, because I personally am skeptical about getting access to Hyatt other than thru II, as we do today.  I could be wrong on that.)
> 
> I look forward to comments of others.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


The Westin St John is closed until further notice, so not an option anyway until January 2019 at the earliest and possibly a fair while later, which is a real shame for the local residents.
It is one of my favourite islands.
http://www.westinresortstjohn.com/
Important Notice about Hurricanes Irma and Maria
The Caribbean Islands, including St. John and St. Thomas, were significantly affected by Hurricanes Irma and Maria. Our recovery process requires the cancellation of all reservations with scheduled arrivals through January 3, 2019. As we make progress, the resort will publicize updates if these dates change.


----------



## vikingsholm

GregT said:


> The Starwood thread on this same topic is also interesting.  A question for Marriott owners —-> do we really care about the access to the Starwood portfolio?
> 
> St John is nice, but so is St Thomas
> Mission Hills is nice, but so is Palm Desert
> Maui is nice, but we have that.
> Kauai is nice, but we have that.
> 
> Mexico is new and is a cool addition
> 
> Bahamas is new, that’s also a cool addition.
> 
> So...just curious if we strip away the interesting news — what is most attractive to Marriott owners about Starwood?
> 
> (This is Starwood focused, because I personally am skeptical about getting access to Hyatt other than thru II, as we do today.  I could be wrong on that.)
> 
> I look forward to comments of others.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


Greg, since you've been skeptical about Hyatt integration, I'm going to throw out some speculation as well. (Just because it's kind of fun, even if grasping at straws).

I think Marriott VC will try to make the existing Marriott, Vistana, and Hyatt branded properties as widely interchangeable as possible within the new structure, while retaining most favoritisms that existed within each system for their respective owners in making reservations. At some cost to owners to access all the systems, of course.

Whether they'll do that by making Hyatt more easily/availably tradeable as weeks within II than they are now, or even go as far to remove the Hyatt name to make it more interchangeable if that's what Hyatt insists on, I think Marriott will consider these properties as theirs going forward, and will do what it takes. We'll see!


----------



## bobpark56

nuwermj said:


> Is the skim zero sum over 52 weeks? Is there, say, a deeded week in the low season that converts to 2000 points but costs only 1,500 points to reserve?


Our Grande Vista 2BR gold week is rated at 2175 points. It costs 1900 points to get a comparable gold week in May, but 2500 points to get the same unit in the Sept-Dec gold season. Go figure. Our experience is that depositing a May week with Interval works at least as well as depositing a Sep-Dec week when it comes to trading power with Interval.


----------



## bobpark56

SueDonJ said:


> We'll have to disagree, Steve.  As far as I'm concerned, based on unit size, placement and consecutive-stay priority, all of my II exchanges were a downgrade of what I own.  All of it was no different than a DC Points Member having to accept  - when exchanging their Week for Points - a smaller unit, lesser view and lower priority in the placement hierarchy.  You can call it what you like but it's all the same skim to me.
> <snip>


We just completed a week at Newport Coast Villas that we obtained through I.I. with a Grand Vista gold unit. Seemed like an upgrade to us. (we have had others)


----------



## dioxide45

bobpark56 said:


> Our Grande Vista 2BR gold week is rated at 2175 points. It costs 1900 points to get a comparable gold week in May, but 2500 points to get the same unit in the Sept-Dec gold season. Go figure. Our experience is that depositing a May week with Interval works at least as well as depositing a Sep-Dec week when it comes to trading power with Interval.


Orlando in May has a much higher TDI than any of those fall weeks.


----------



## GregT

Yes there are definitely upgrade opportunities though II - I love trading my Worldmark and staying at Marriott’s (shout-out to PerryM) but Sue and I both own premium units where only downtrades are possible.

II is a great option for all of us and I own two dedicated traders to exploit the opportunities that Bob refers too - but there were many pissed Marriott owners who didn’t spend the time/care enough/whatever and Marriott capitalized on it with DC. 

So yes, both uptrades and downtrades are possible - and TUGgers have figured much of it out.

Best,

Greg


----------



## bobpark56

bazzap said:


> The Westin St John is closed until further notice, so not an option anyway until January 2019 at the earliest and possibly a fair while later, which is a real shame for the local residents.
> It is one of my favourite islands.
> http://www.westinresortstjohn.com/
> Important Notice about Hurricanes Irma and Maria
> The Caribbean Islands, including St. John and St. Thomas, were significantly affected by Hurricanes Irma and Maria. Our recovery process requires the cancellation of all reservations with scheduled arrivals through January 3, 2019. As we make progress, the resort will publicize updates if these dates change.


Vistana (formerly Starwood) did a much better job than Marriott when compensating owners for weeks lost to hurricane damage. Perhaps Marriott could learn a thing or two here...though I doubt we can count on it.


----------



## dioxide45

bobpark56 said:


> Vistana (formerly Starwood) did a much better job than Marriott when compensating owners for weeks lost to hurricane damage. Perhaps Marriott could learn a thing or two here...though I doubt we can count on it.


I am sure we will see them go to the lowest common denominator, and that is Marriott. The owner friendly polices of Vistana will be a thing of the past.


----------



## JIMinNC

GregT said:


> The Starwood thread on this same topic is also interesting.  A question for Marriott owners —-> do we really care about the access to the Starwood portfolio?
> 
> St John is nice, but so is St Thomas
> Mission Hills is nice, but so is Palm Desert
> Maui is nice, but we have that.
> Kauai is nice, but we have that.
> 
> Mexico is new and is a cool addition
> 
> Bahamas is new, that’s also a cool addition.
> 
> So...just curious if we strip away the interesting news — what is most attractive to Marriott owners about Starwood?
> 
> (This is Starwood focused, because I personally am skeptical about getting access to Hyatt other than thru II, as we do today.  I could be wrong on that.)
> 
> I look forward to comments of others.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Here are the properties within the VSE portfolio that interest me the most as a supplement to our current Marriott ownership, and where I would place real value if DC points could ever be used to book there:

- Westin Los Cabos (stayed there in February and loved the resort)
- Westin St John (once it reopens in 2019 or after, but I would suspect any combined program would be after that point anyway)
- Harborside at Atlantis
- Westin Princeville (for an option on the north shore of Kauai as a change of pace from the locations where Marriott is)
- The three Westin properties on Maui could provide an alternative/change of venue versus Maui Ocean Club - mainly if we wanted to go in an even year in addition to our odd year MOC ownership

If DC points could be used to access these properties, it would make me more interested in finding a way to acquire more DC points.


----------



## Marathoner

GregT said:


> (This is Starwood focused, because I personally am skeptical about getting access to Hyatt other than thru II, as we do today.  I could be wrong on that.)



There is a large location overlap between VSE and Marriott - although some differences exist as you've noted.  In contrast, the HRC properties are quite upscale, more distinctive, and are in more unique locations - all qualities which would complement Marriott far more than almost any other timeshare system which they could acquire.  The smaller scale of Hyatt properties and the scarcity of the available intervals makes them far more valuable to the DC Trust.  As a result, I predict that MVC management will expend much more effort to somehow integrate HRC properties into the DC Trust.  For similar reasons, I predict that MVC will exercise ROFR much more aggressively on the HRC weeks which are submitted.  As an owner of both MVC and HRC weeks, I hope that this is not the case.  I would much rather see Hyatt stay independent of the DC Trust in order to maintain exclusivity and avoid the competition for internal exchanges into the available HRC weeks.  Unfortunately, I expect that MVC management will see the HRC properties as real gems that they'll want to add aggressively to the portfolio of Marriott properties by offering DC enrollment options as well as by exercising ROFR on Hyatt owners.


----------



## mjm1

GregT said:


> The Starwood thread on this same topic is also interesting.  A question for Marriott owners —-> do we really care about the access to the Starwood portfolio?
> 
> St John is nice, but so is St Thomas
> Mission Hills is nice, but so is Palm Desert
> Maui is nice, but we have that.
> Kauai is nice, but we have that.
> 
> Mexico is new and is a cool addition
> 
> Bahamas is new, that’s also a cool addition.
> 
> So...just curious if we strip away the interesting news — what is most attractive to Marriott owners about Starwood?
> 
> (This is Starwood focused, because I personally am skeptical about getting access to Hyatt other than thru II, as we do today.  I could be wrong on that.)
> 
> I look forward to comments of others.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Greg, we have stayed at St John, Harborside, WKORVN and Lagunamar, and enjoyed each of the properties. We have also visited, but never stayed at, Princeville. That is also of interest. We own at Kierland Villas, but ironically haven’t stayed there yet. Only visited. We will stay there in December. That is also a very nice property. While we own some time with Vistana, having the additional flexibility to use DC points for additional stays would be a nice option.




Marathoner said:


> There is a large location overlap between VSE and Marriott - although some differences exist as you've noted.  In contrast, the HRC properties are quite upscale, more distinctive, and are in more unique locations - all qualities which would complement Marriott far more than almost any other timeshare system which they could acquire.  The smaller scale of Hyatt properties and the scarcity of the available intervals makes them far more valuable to the DC Trust.  As a result, I predict that MVC management will expend much more effort to somehow integrate HRC properties into the DC Trust.  For similar reasons, I predict that MVC will exercise ROFR much more aggressively on the HRC weeks which are submitted.  As an owner of both MVC and HRC weeks, I hope that this is not the case.  I would much rather see Hyatt stay independent of the DC Trust in order to maintain exclusivity and avoid the competition for internal exchanges into the available HRC weeks.  Unfortunately, I expect that MVC management will see the HRC properties as real gems that they'll want to add aggressively to the portfolio of Marriott properties by offering DC enrollment options as well as by exercising ROFR on Hyatt owners.



I can see this being a great value to MVC as well if they can work through any complexities with Hyatt Corp. We have visited Highlands Inn, Piñon Point and High Sierra in NorthShore Lake Tahoe, and all of them are very nice properties. Whether it be by an internal trade or higher priority via an II trade, having greater access to their portfolio of properties would be a great option too.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## JIMinNC

Marathoner said:


> There is a large location overlap between VSE and Marriott - although some differences exist as you've noted.  In contrast, the HRC properties are quite upscale, more distinctive, and are in more unique locations - all qualities which would complement Marriott far more than almost any other timeshare system which they could acquire.  The smaller scale of Hyatt properties and the scarcity of the available intervals makes them far more valuable to the DC Trust.  As a result, I predict that MVC management will expend much more effort to somehow integrate HRC properties into the DC Trust.  For similar reasons, I predict that MVC will exercise ROFR much more aggressively on the HRC weeks which are submitted.  As an owner of both MVC and HRC weeks, I hope that this is not the case.  I would much rather see Hyatt stay independent of the DC Trust in order to maintain exclusivity and avoid the competition for internal exchanges into the available HRC weeks.  Unfortunately, I expect that MVC management will see the HRC properties as real gems that they'll want to add aggressively to the portfolio of Marriott properties by offering DC enrollment options as well as by exercising ROFR on Hyatt owners.




I think the complicating factor is Marriott International now controls the Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton brand families, but not Hyatt. I think it is logical for Marriott Vacations Worldwide to view Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton timeshares as part of the same "family", since the related hotel brands are also part of the same hotel family. While I agree that the Hyatt locations add more variety to the current MVC offerings than does Vistana, the brand complication can't be ignored.


----------



## Marathoner

JIMinNC said:


> I think the complicating factor is Marriott International now controls the Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton brand families, but not Hyatt. I think it is logical for Marriott Vacations Worldwide to view Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton timeshares as part of the same "family", since the related hotel brands are also part of the same hotel family. While I agree that the Hyatt locations add more variety to the current MVC offerings than does Vistana, the brand complication can't be ignored.



Disagree.  The physical properties are far, far more important than the Hyatt name.  MVC is set to assume the license to use the HRC brand once the ILG acquisition closes.  If there is a clause which does allow Hyatt to revoke its license and Hyatt were to invoke its right, then MVC could simply take the former HRC properties and rebrand them under one of its existing labels - Westin, Marriott, Ritz-Carlton, or St Regis.  Or simply create a new brand.  As an HRC owner, I don't really care what my Hyatt property is called, as long as the property is managed well and the resale value remains decent.  An upscale brand like Hyatt simply signifies that a certain standard of care will be maintained, but a number of other high-end brands will also carry the same imprimatur.

I highly doubt that Hyatt would terminate MVC's license to use the HRC brand anyway.  Licensing the HRC brand is free money to Hyatt and I don't seeing Hyatt doing anything which risks this particular revenue stream.  The only thing that Hyatt cares about is that MVC doesn't do anything with the HRC properties which dilutes the brand strength of their Hyatt hotel franchise - which MVC would take care not to do anyway.

In fact, if I were MVC management, I would work to terminate the licensing of the HRC brand with Hyatt and rebadge the HRC properties to one of their existing MVC high-end labels in order to save millions in license fees paid to Hyatt each year.


----------



## VacationForever

GregT said:


> The Starwood thread on this same topic is also interesting.  A question for Marriott owners —-> do we really care about the access to the Starwood portfolio?
> 
> St John is nice, but so is St Thomas
> Mission Hills is nice, but so is Palm Desert
> Maui is nice, but we have that.
> Kauai is nice, but we have that.
> 
> Mexico is new and is a cool addition
> 
> Bahamas is new, that’s also a cool addition.
> 
> So...just curious if we strip away the interesting news — what is most attractive to Marriott owners about Starwood?
> 
> (This is Starwood focused, because I personally am skeptical about getting access to Hyatt other than thru II, as we do today.  I could be wrong on that.)
> 
> I look forward to comments of others.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


For us Marriott owners, we have no interest in going to Vistana properties.  We love Lagunamar, which is favorite Vistana property, but with the increasing violence in the area, it is now off our list.  The only resort that we go to regularly, even though we feel that the quality of the resort is inferior to Marriott Desert Springs, is Westin Mission Hills because of its first class golf facility next door.  We have more than enough Staroptions to book into it each year, and we elect to convert to Starpoints every other year.

We sold off all of our Vistana ownership past couple of years and kept just one week because we decided that Marriott has more to offer us than Vistana.


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## bdh

JIMinNC said:


> I think the complicating factor is Marriott International now controls the Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton brand families, but not Hyatt. I think it is logical for Marriott Vacations Worldwide to view Marriott, Westin, and Sheraton timeshares as part of the same "family", since the related hotel brands are also part of the same hotel family. While I agree that the Hyatt locations add more variety to the current MVC offerings than does Vistana, the brand complication can't be ignored.





Marathoner said:


> Disagree.  The physical properties are far, far more important than the Hyatt name.  MVC is set to assume the license to use the HRC brand once the ILG acquisition closes.  If there is a clause which does allow Hyatt to revoke its license and Hyatt were to invoke its right, then MVC could simply take the former HRC properties and rebrand them under one of its existing labels - Westin, Marriott, Ritz-Carlton, or St Regis.  Or simply create a new brand.



When the Marriott press release includes the statement of "_With respect to its Hyatt business, the combined company will have rights to develop, market and sell under the Hyatt Vacation Ownership programs_", it sounds like HRC will remain a separate brand/entity and there may actually be new properties/locations added to the HRC brand.


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## CalGalTraveler

Hmm...Perhaps this DC overlay is all wrong. Marriott also acquired II, Trading Places, VRI and Aqua-Aston Hospitality.  I was reading on another MVC thread that it is cheaper (and more convenient) for Marriott owners to enroll in DC than to exchange via II if you have multiple trades.  This incentive for DC was designed in a day when Marriott wanted to receive some exchange $ instead of giving it all to II.  Now they own both methods and they should not care because they receive $ either way.

With this acquisition, they might prefer to send owners to II because it is more lucrative (read more expensive for Marriott owners) than enrolling in DC.

The exchange and rental business comprises 28% of current revenue.  It is likely their highest margin business because operating and capex costs are minimal compared to sales of VOI and Resort Operations. These resort systems already participate in II so incremental cost is minimum.  This business does not damage their reputation and have all the headaches of foreclosure and deedbacks.  It is also a recurring revenue stream vs. VOIs which are one-off sales.  Wall St. likes recurring revenue...

Perhaps they put II on steroids to boost the II exchange and rental business. They encourage more exchange inventory trades by incenting owners to exchange via II. Marriott already make their MFs from owners, but exchange fees are incremental revenue. This would simplify the model immensely without dealing with unraveling the legal hairballs of each system.  They could also boost getaways and rentals if more inventory was in the system.  They could also roll this out very quickly since II is already in place with each of these systems.

Over time, they could also add (or transition) a "super DC points" model based on II for incremental revenue. This becomes part and parcel of II and they could assign points values for each resort and transition away from legacy points systems long term.


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## Fasttr

CalGalTraveler said:


> Hmm...Perhaps this DC overlay is all wrong. Marriott also acquired II, Trading Places, VRI and Aqua-Aston Hospitality.  I was reading on another MVC thread that it is cheaper (and more convenient) for Marriott owners to enroll in DC than to exchange via II if you have multiple trades.  This incentive for DC was designed in a day when Marriott wanted to receive some exchange $ instead of giving it all to II.  Now they own both methods and they should not care because they receive $ either way.
> 
> With this acquisition, they might prefer to send owners to II because it is more lucrative (read more expensive for Marriott owners) than enrolling in DC.
> 
> The exchange and rental business comprises 28% of current revenue.  It is likely their highest margin business because operating and capex costs are minimal compared to sales of VOI and Resort Operations. These resort systems already participate in II so incremental cost is minimum.  This business does not damage their reputation and have all the headaches of foreclosure and deedbacks.
> 
> Perhaps they put II on steroids to boost the II exchange and rental business. They encourage more exchange inventory trades by incenting owners to exchange via II. Marriott already make their MFs from owners, but exchange fees are incremental revenue. This would simplify the model immensely without dealing with unraveling the legal hairballs of each system.  They could also boost getaways and rentals if more inventory was in the system.  They could also roll this out very quickly since II is in place.
> 
> They could also add (or transition) a "super DC points" model based on II for incremental revenue. This becomes part and parcel of II and becomes similar to RCI points values for each resort.


But none of that sells DC points.


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## CalGalTraveler

Revenue is revenue. It sells II superpoints and increases exchange revenue due to better/more exchange inventory. This way they can also upsell DC in addition to ILG.

Also less scary for ILG owners to convert to an II brand that is known vs. unknown Marriott DC brand. This will result in more conversions to points and super exchanges which is the goal.


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## CalGalTraveler

Strategically if revenue and margins increase substantially from this segment of the business they could make this and TS operations their core business and eventually look more like a TS hotel chain and eventually spin off the TS assets with LT II and operational agreements to get them off their balance sheet and lock in recurring revenue. Wall St. would love that.

In addition, they must get a lot of pushback from the hotel brands for negative timeshare practices. This grows revenue and keeps them out of trouble with hotel brands.


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## VacationForever

I agree with @CalGalTraveler up to a certain extent.  Many posts here and on the Vistana thread are from owners being optimistic about getting enrolled into DC for little to no money and have access to DC and VSE inventories without going through II.  This will create negative revenue for VAC. 

This acquisition is all about increasing future revenues for VAC, which means generating more developer sales.  The access across systems will be given to developer-bought weeks/points access to other systems at a shorter period compared with owners within the same system.  VAC will likely keep 3 systems separate to maximize sales opportunities.

In the meantime, if you are not in the internal trading systems, you are at the mercy of continuing to trade through II, and the price of exchanges is going to keep increasing.  The exchange costs will continue to make resale owners consider requalifying their units at high costs, similar to the HPP model or the occasional offer by Marriott to buy points to enroll their post June 2010 weeks.  The junk fees will also keep increasing.


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> I agree with @CalGalTraveler up to a certain extent.  Many posts here and on the Vistana thread are from owners being optimistic about getting enrolled into DC for little to no money and have access to DC and VSE inventories without going through II.  This will create negative revenue for VAC.
> 
> This acquisition is all about increasing future revenues for VAC, which means generating more developer sales.  The access across systems will be given to developer-bought weeks/points access to other systems at a shorter period compared with owners within the same system.  VAC will likely keep 3 systems separate to maximize sales opportunities.
> 
> In the meantime, if you are not in the internal trading systems, you are at the mercy of continuing to trade through II, and the price of exchanges is going to keep increasing.  The exchange costs will continue to make resale owners consider requalifying their units at high costs, similar to the HPP model or the occasional offer by Marriott to buy points to enroll their post June 2010 weeks.  The junk fees will also keep increasing.


Of course, anyone's speculation is always as good as the others. I love speculation...


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## SueDonJ

I think it's worth noting that in the speculation leading up to the DC introduction the majority TUG consensus was that MVW would have to be mindful of what any new products would do to Weeks resale values, and, offering low-to-no fee structures to entice existing Weeks owners into playing the new game via low purchase prices for any Points product and low-cost uninhibited participation by Weeks Owners.  TUGgers warned that MVW couldn't continue their pattern with existing Weeks of implementing ongoing increases in purchase prices and transaction fees, couldn't do anything with any product that would in any way counter the Weeks values that they'd historically established via purchase prices, couldn't differentiate between developer-direct and external-resale Weeks in any way, couldn't infringe in any way on the established values of Weeks exchanged via II, couldn't be successful if they didn't - at least in the beginning - prioritize their focus on value for existing owners as opposed to the company itself, etc etc etc.

Yet with and since the DC introduction the company has continued to increase its bottom line despite having disproved the overwhelming majority of the TUG warnings, while the popularity of the DC continues to gain momentum even here on TUG where the established game is "Beat The Developers."

I've seen value in MVW products and their various incantations throughout our ownership but that doesn't mean that everything they've ever done has increased the usage value of my particular ownership, and it's for sure that the monetary value has been devalued.  Whatever they do with this acquisition in whatever forms it may be implemented, we'd all be smart to temper any expectations that they "can't" or "won't" do something because we won't like it.  Study up on the legalities of what you own so as to protect your ownership, and be prepared for the onslaught of (sometimes irrational) negative reaction that's going to happen no matter what MVW does.


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## CalGalTraveler

+1 @VacationForever  Why would VAC give people easy access to exchange with the entire system and leverage their investment ($) when they could offer to sell them additional developer deeds ($$$) in each of the three+ systems (MVC, Vistana, HHR) with preference to that system through internal trading systems  (perhaps an elite type of ownership if they buy two or from all three etc..).

Although this is all speculation, one thing is for certain: VAC will select whatever option makes VAC the most money in the shortest amount of time, with the least amount of legal, hotel brand and owner disatisfaction exposure.  The possibilities from this merger are many; the strategic planners and legal experts will be working overtime on profit scenarios.  As @SueDonJ accurately points out - some will win and some will lose. They will not please everyone.


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## Steve A

Changes in the system are designed to make the Marriotts richer not to enhance our happiness.


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## BocaBoy

CalGalTraveler said:


> This incentive for DC was designed in a day when Marriott wanted to receive some exchange $ instead of giving it all to II.  Now they own both methods and they should not care because they receive $ either way.


Of course, Marriott wants to make as much money as they can, but one major force driving the introduction of a points system (which was under development for years before it was introduced) was owner dissatisfaction with II trades, especially from owners of premium MVCI properties with important view categories (e.g., ocean front in Hawaii).  Many of us with those properties were very vocal for years about the inability to keep a view in a trade and Marriott listened.  Their challenge was how to implement an internal exchange system to make owners happy and at the same time make it profitable.  As chance would have it, DC was introduced at a time when the economy was horrible and they needed a boost, but the idea was hatched long before.


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## frank808

I have never experienced II skim on my trades into MKO.  I have always traded my studio and 1br units at Willowridge, grand vista, harbor lake, etc for minimum 1br all the way to 3br at MKO.  I have been lucky enough to do 100's of trades into MKO and love the system.

Now if I can enroll all my post 2010 weeks into DC points for a reasonable price i would be ecstatic.  Would love to save on all the lockoff and trade fees.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## JIMinNC

Marathoner said:


> Disagree.  The physical properties are far, far more important than the Hyatt name.  MVC is set to assume the license to use the HRC brand once the ILG acquisition closes.  If there is a clause which does allow Hyatt to revoke its license and Hyatt were to invoke its right, then MVC could simply take the former HRC properties and rebrand them under one of its existing labels - Westin, Marriott, Ritz-Carlton, or St Regis.  Or simply create a new brand.  As an HRC owner, I don't really care what my Hyatt property is called, as long as the property is managed well and the resale value remains decent.  An upscale brand like Hyatt simply signifies that a certain standard of care will be maintained, but a number of other high-end brands will also carry the same imprimatur.
> 
> I highly doubt that Hyatt would terminate MVC's license to use the HRC brand anyway.  Licensing the HRC brand is free money to Hyatt and I don't seeing Hyatt doing anything which risks this particular revenue stream.  The only thing that Hyatt cares about is that MVC doesn't do anything with the HRC properties which dilutes the brand strength of their Hyatt hotel franchise - which MVC would take care not to do anyway.
> 
> In fact, if I were MVC management, I would work to terminate the licensing of the HRC brand with Hyatt and rebadge the HRC properties to one of their existing MVC high-end labels in order to save millions in license fees paid to Hyatt each year.



How many HRC locations are co-located with Hyatt hotels? In those situations it would be much tougher to rebrand a HRC property to something else, since another entity likely controls the associated hotel property and its branding and management.

I understand that MVW will have full license to the HRC brands, but my broader point was that I could see the Marriott Vacation Club/Westin Vacation Club/Sheraton Vacation Club properties eventually integrated into some kind of integrated Points system due to the common brand ownership/loyalty program from Marriott International; while the HRC properties could be operated in a less integrated fashion, more as a standalone entity (with maybe preferential trading through II).

Another issue would be if the transaction gets any anti-trust scrutiny, could HRC be a bargaining chip that they sell or spin-off to negotiate any anti-trust complaints?


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## gaspasser

TravelTime said:


> Marriott told me that if I buy an enrolled deeded week from them, they count how many points it is worth in addition to how many actual DC Trust Points I own, and then I would qualify for the member level of the total combination, even if I never convert. For example, let’s say I have 7000 DC points and I own an enrolled MKO week (using MKO just as an example), which is worth a little under 5000 points. The combination would be approximately 12,000 points and push me from Executive Level to Presidential Level, even if I never convert MKO to points. I have not actually bought an enrolled deeded week from Marriott so I am wondering if others have been able to achieve a higher membership level in this way?


That is true


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## bizaro86

I don't think anti-trust will be a problem, as their market share is still relatively low - Wyndham, Diamond, Bluegreen, Hilton, DVC, Westgate, etc are all still in active sales and big, and their market share won't be enough to cause an issue. Also, I think timeshare sales aren't a politically popular thing to "protect competition" in anyway.


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## chemteach

The other thing VAC could do is turn II into an exchange points system in the same way RCI has gone to "tpu" points for their weeks program.  They could create an internal exchange preference period between Marriott, Vistana, and Hyatt weeks.  (I believe right now that Hyatt owners cannot exchange into Hyatt properties with their Hyatt points via II - they do this throught the non II Hyatt exchange program similar to Vistana's Star Options.)   Or, of course, VAC could leave the II system as it is now - with a Marriott internal preference period and a Vistana internal preference period.


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## Carlsbadguy

I have a feeling what Marriott may do is increase the points needed for Chairman and maybe some of the higher levels and only those higher levels will have access to a super system. Possibly even make a higher level than Chairman.  I do think if already at those levels you would be grandfathered in. A point value will be assigned to all weeks and people not currently with Destination Points can buy a low number of new points and their week will be enrolled.


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## Ewiike

Wow! That's a big one!


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## Swice

My prediction is:    We will have to wait at least two years before we know anything.     First, the sale has to actually go through.   Second, it will take them time to figure out how to cut internal duplication and realize some quick cost savings (let's put out bids to suppliers for toilet paper, etc for cost savings).   Third, they'll need time to decide if they'll continue to run different programs or combine into one (that will take a LOT of thought).   Fourth, they dream up ways to "enhance" each program (somehow they'll give us access to additional properties).    Then they'll have to actually design/merge computer systems or at least get them to talk to each other.  At that point, they'll start throwing a few crumbs our way.    And at a later date they'll actually start "selling" the new program.      Remember, it wasn't until a month ago that we found out how Marriott and Starwood programs were going to merge (and there were no deeds/purchase contracts with customers involved) and that took two years.


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## dioxide45

Swice said:


> My prediction is:    We will have to wait at least two years before we know anything.     First, the sale has to actually go through.   Second, it will take them time to figure out how to cut internal duplication and realize some quick cost savings (let's put out bids to suppliers for toilet paper, etc for cost savings).   Third, they'll need time to decide if they'll continue to run different programs or combine into one (that will take a LOT of thought).   Fourth, they dream up ways to "enhance" each program (somehow they'll give us access to additional properties).    Then they'll have to actually design/merge computer systems or at least get them to talk to each other.  At that point, they'll start throwing a few crumbs our way.    And at a later date they'll actually start "selling" the new program.      Remember, it wasn't until a month ago that we found out how Marriott and Starwood programs were going to merge (and there were no deeds/purchase contracts with customers involved) and that took two years.


So we have two more years of this speculation. I wonder how long this thread will get by then?


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## VacationForever

People will slowly forget and move on the other hot new topics... and then it will come alive again when the new program(s) are officially announced.


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> So we have two more years of this speculation. I wonder how long this thread will get by then?



The pre-DC speculation thread is the most active thread in TUG's Marriott forum with 2,959 Replies and 200,323 Views, begun 2/9/10 and closed 6/21/10.  We have miles to go before we sleep.


----------



## jimf41

nuwermj said:


> Is the skim zero sum over 52 weeks? Is there, say, a deeded week in the low season that converts to 2000 points but costs only 1,500 points to reserve?


Yes, an Ocean Pointe silver 3bd will convert to 4225 DC points. An Ocean Pointe gold 3bd can be had for 4000 DC points.

I own 7 weeks, 4 at Ocean Pointe FL and 3 at Frenchmans Cove St Thomas. Each year I convert all my Ocean Pointe weeks and use my Frenchmans Cove weeks. I have never lost a point to "skim". I do in fact make points every time I convert. In order to take advantage of this benefit I do have to pay an annual fee of about $250 but that's a small price for the ability to trade a low season week for a high season week even up.


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## BigMac

*transcript from the MAR earnings call May 9th.*

My follow-up, Arne, is whether there's any benefit to Marriott from the Marriott Vacation Club acquisition of ILG.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arne M. Sorenson, Marriott International, Inc. - President, CEO & Director [68]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Generally, it will simplify things, and as a consequence, I think we're supportive of it. We've got good relationships with MVW and ILG. We had -- Leeny and team had already completed negotiations with both of those companies so that we were free to proceed with the merger of the loyalty programs and the websites and all the rest of it. So those restrictions were behind us. Nevertheless, I think to be able to deal with one company and not have either one of them necessarily looking behind the curtains to see, "Is there possibly something you've given to one that you haven't given to us?" will simplify things a little bit. I don't think it will be dramatic.


----------



## Steve Fatula

jimf41 said:


> Yes, an Ocean Pointe silver 3bd will convert to 4225 DC points. An Ocean Pointe gold 3bd can be had for 4000 DC points.
> 
> I own 7 weeks, 4 at Ocean Pointe FL and 3 at Frenchmans Cove St Thomas. Each year I convert all my Ocean Pointe weeks and use my Frenchmans Cove weeks. I have never lost a point to "skim". I do in fact make points every time I convert. In order to take advantage of this benefit I do have to pay an annual fee of about $250 but that's a small price for the ability to trade a low season week for a high season week even up.



That great! I was not aware of any resort where that was the case, but obviously there is. I see Silver is 4225, but gold is 3725, strange!


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## JIMinNC

I just listened to a recording of the 1Q 2018 Marriott Vacations Worldwide earnings call. There was obviously a lot of discussion about the ILG merger. They hope to close by the end of September 2018. Below are some of the more interesting quotes from the call, copied from the transcript. Apologize for the length. The most interesting comments were from the questions, particularly the last two - one about the potential to expand the MVC inventory repurchase model to ILG locations, and the last one about how the merger will impact their plans to spend on building out new legacy MVC inventory.

*Steve Weisz: *We see tremendous potential from the combination of the Marriott Vacation Club brands with Vistana Signature Experiences, not only from the additional linkage opportunities those will provide but also from our ability to maximize tour generation from our call transfer program across the broader portfolio. Additionally, while we are already optimistic about the future contract sales growth potential of the digital transfer opportunity we will begin soon with Marriott, the additional marketing opportunities of our combined company creates even more ability to generate incremental sales volume.

*Question from Analyst: *_So you outlined a few of the opportunities for revenue synergies. As you're thinking about those, which ones do you think you might tackle first, offering the biggest opportunity? And what kind of timetable do you expect in terms of reviewing ILG and assessing best practices?_

*Steve Weisz: *First of all, as you might imagine, through due diligence, we were able to get through kind of the top-level review, and we have some ideas along the way. I'll share some of those with you. As far as specific timing, we're still a little early on in that. But as you might imagine, we'll get to that as quickly as we possibly can, post closing. So here are a couple of obvious things. Obviously, linkage opportunities, which, today, we have exclusivity on in the vacation ownership space. As soon as the businesses are combined, that exclusivity will now include everything under the Vistana Signature Experiences area, which really gives us exclusive marketing rights into 15 of the Marriott lodging brands. If we think about call transfer, once again, where we have an exclusive -- we will certainly add the Westin and vacation locations from the VSE portfolio into the call transfer program. And then the other thing that we're probably as excited, if not more excited about, rather than calls transfer, is the whole digital idea. Keep in mind what that is. This is essentially taking the digital-analog to call transfer, where people are calling into a reservation center to either make or change a reservation, where we eventually see if we can speak with them about scheduling a tour, which -- you now do it in the digital space, where, as you well know, the Marriott website is one of the top 10 retail websites in the world as it exists today, before you combine it with the Starwood platform, et cetera. And so we think as more and more people transact with Marriott in a digital space, that we will get the benefit of that coming to us in terms of the effective -- without a different word, the effectiveness of digital call transfer versus physical call transfer. So we see those things. I mean there are some other things that we see kind of right on the top of the line. We think we can actually have some influence to grow financing propensity between the businesses. We've had some great success in our portfolio by virtue of some of the things that we've done lately. We think there are some ways in which we can continue to grow revenues that way. Those are just some examples. And obviously, we're going to continue to work hard on trying to quantify as much of this as we can between now and the time of closing, which we hope to be at the end of September. But that's the approach we're going to take.

*Question from Analyst: *_You may be aware of a little bit of chatter out there about would it makes sense for RCI and then the Interval exchange network to combine. And, perhaps dating myself here, but I recall quite a few years ago that CUC and Cendant had to spin out II due to antitrust issues. Do you think antitrust issues would be an issue today given the changes in that part of the industry in the last 15 years to 20 years?_

*Steve Weisz: *I certainly don't have a lot of purview as to what -- how the FTC might think about that. Let's just say that, at this point in time, we have no plans to spin off the Interval International business or combine it, but I guess all things are possible.

*Later in the call Weisz came back to clarify this point:

Steve Weisz:* I want to make sure I didn't give anybody the wrong impression on Interval International. We have absolutely no plans to sell or spin off that business. I mean, to be honest, you took me a little bit by surprise because when you mentioned that there was chatter out there about RCI and II coming together, I'll be honest, that's the absolute first time I've ever heard that. So I want to make sure that everybody understands that we put great value on the Interval business, and we think it's a very attractive business with great cash flow profile and a relatively low CapEx profile to it. And so we have no intentions to move in that direction.

*Question from Analyst:* _One thing I think about is you folks have grown your inventory repurchase program considerably and it's a little bit of an unknown what's going on with ILG. I'm wondering how your repurchase program compares to ILG's?_

*Steve Weisz:* We think ours is a little bit more robust than what we see in the ILG space, and we think the volumes that we put through the -- our repurchase program is a little higher than what we see in the ILG side. There may be opportunities there. Obviously, one of the benefits of that is it allows people that have been very happy owners an exit path that we think is appropriate. Plus it allows us to recycle some inventory at a very reasonable inventory cost.

*John Geller: *The Points product that we have really enables us to be very effective in reselling it because we put it into the Points product and sell it. And historically, they've sold more of a weeks-based product. They've gone to the Points now, which actually will help facilitate that, but they, to Steve's point, I'm not sure they've done a lot of that. And as we've talked about, because with the weeks-based, when you repurchase those, you don't have certainty to get that into the system and resell it. So folks that sell weeks-based product have a much harder time efficiently recycling that weeks-based product.

*Question from Analyst:* _A large part of the Interval's -- the ILG story was all of the inventory for sale coming up in the next couple of years. Certainly, they had a massive amount. With this acquisition and that large amount of inventory, does that change how you think about your -- or the legacy Marriott Vacations spend on inventory the next couple of years?_

*John Geller: *One of the nice benefits that we get, which is never captured in anybody's EBITDA multiple, is ILG has made significant investments in their inventory pipeline and have -- I believe it's 700, 800 of completed units now -- they have obviously down in Cabo, plus their Nanea project. So that's great for us because that's a lot of good inventory. We don't need to go out...I think over time, we would look to do a very similar model like we do today, which is we're looking to add new flags, add new sales distributions, and time the spending of our inventory to replace what we're selling off the shelf each year. And so that's strategy long term. In the near term, we're going to have the opportunity, because of a lot of great locations they've built, to look at near-term opportunities on our inventory spend. So obviously, we'll be updating you on that as our plans get a little bit clearer and we determine what we're doing.

We're going to be working on that in terms of our longer-term integration plans and how we're going to position products, which will obviously drive our inventory needs. But what I'd say on a combined basis, as I mentioned, the ILG and the inventory they've built out, we're in a good spot there. And maybe potentially the ability to leverage some of that inventory as we think about our Marriott because under our -- combined for the Marriott licensed brands, that's all on the table, if you will, in terms of how we think about that inventory. So we definitely need to do that work here, and obviously, we'll be back with more updates as we progress through and talk about all the great opportunities that this combination, we think, brings for us.


----------



## JIMinNC

The takeaways I draw from those last two questions are:

Long term, they may look for ways to transition the ILG portfolio to a more pure points-based product like the DC to facilitate easier repurchase and recycling of inventory. They clearly do not like the traditional weeks model.
In the short run, the large amount of unsold inventory that ILG brings to the table may impact their short term inventory needs and reduce the amount of new inventory that they bring online, but that all depends on how and in what form they choose to integrate their various products. In other words, if they eventually integrate all the brands into one structure, the large amount of unsold ILG inventory might mean they don't need to add inventory on the MVC legacy side. But if they structure things differently and the systems stay more separate, then MVC may still need new supply to fuel DC points sales. It sounds like all options are on the table and they are evaluating the best structure.


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## GregT

Interesting comments on the conference  call.  Hard to conclude anything from their answers but I agree with Jim that they clearly like recycling weeks into points, we just need to find out if that extends to recycling Starwood weeks into Marriott Trust (as I still think they will do). 

Best,

Greg


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## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> Long term, they may look for ways to transition the ILG portfolio to a more pure points-based product like the DC to facilitate easier repurchase and recycling of inventory. They clearly do not like the traditional weeks model.


VSE already has the points based product setup with Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex. They also have the Westin Aventuras in Mexico. I think the structure is there, they just don't have a lot of quality inventory in there yet. The have other fragmented points product out there along with weeks. I don't even know if they are selling weeks at VSE any more.


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## VacationForever

I am waiting for the speculation to restart based on Jim's post...

Let me start... I am focused on the mention of ILG having plenty of inventory.  I think Steve Weisz was referring to the new properties that recently came on and those that are coming on.  Well and good... but what about the older sold out properties?  Was he saying that when the acquisition of ILG is completed, that MVCI will implement an aggressive repurchasing program for VSE properties?  I don't think Hyatt was explicitly called out.  Will MVCI have enough inventory through repurchasing program to feed future points sale as well as for (new) points program or DC reservations?


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## WBP

People can say whatever they want about Steve Weisz, MVCI, and MVW, but, at the end of the day, Steve Weisz has been at the helm of MVCI, and its spin-off, for, I'm guessing, 25 years, and Steve Weisz, MVCI, and MVW have a long list of substantial accomplishments over that period. Despite the occasional critics and occasional noise, we've met boatloads of very happy MVCI owners.

Not to suggest that everything that I think about MVCI and MVW is exemplary (the vast majority is), but having experienced the Diamond's, Starwood's, and Wyndham's of the world, I can say with unwavering confidence, that our experiences with/at MVCI/MVW are a million times better than our experiences with/at Diamond, Starwood, and Wyndham's timeshare entities.


----------



## dioxide45

VacationForever said:


> I am waiting for the speculation to restart based on Jim's post...
> 
> Let me start... I am focused on the mention of ILG having plenty of inventory.  I think Steve Weisz was referring to the new properties that recently came on and those that are coming on.  Well and good... but what about the older sold out properties?  Was he saying that when the acquisition of ILG is completed, that MVCI will implement an aggressive repurchasing program for VSE properties?  I don't think Hyatt was explicitly called out.  Will MVCI have enough inventory through repurchasing program to feed future points sale as well as for (new) points program or DC reservations?


Vistana certainly hasn't offered any kind of formal repurchase program other than buying back foreclosed weeks from the individual HOAs. With the downturn in II deposits, there may be some pent up demand/supply at voluntary resorts where resale buyers are willing to give their deeds back to VSE/VAC. I don't think it could ever come close to meet the demands of a full time sales operation, but VSE certainly has a lot of inventory at their new properties to meet those needs.


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## JIMinNC

VacationForever said:


> I am waiting for the speculation to restart based on Jim's post...
> 
> Let me start... I am focused on the mention of ILG having plenty of inventory.  I think Steve Weisz was referring to the new properties that recently came on and those that are coming on.  Well and good... but what about the older sold out properties?  Was he saying that when the acquisition of ILG is completed, that MVCI will implement an aggressive repurchasing program for VSE properties?  I don't think Hyatt was explicitly called out.  Will MVCI have enough inventory through repurchasing program to feed future points sale as well as for (new) points program or DC reservations?



The way I interpreted their sorta obtuse and vague statements was 1) ILG has a bunch of new inventory - they specifically mentioned Cabo and Nanea - so depending on how they structure the future program(s) that may or may not change their development plan regarding the legacy MVC DC program. In that, he was specifically speaking about new development/construction/renovation, rather than inventory buybacks; 2) on the topic of buybacks, they intimated that they felt ILG had not been very aggressive with buybacks and that perhaps there was an opportunity there for them to utilize their knowledge and expertise in buybacks to improve the process at ILG and reacquire properties at attractive price points. But he also said that was easier in a pure points environment than in a more traditional weeks-based environment.



dioxide45 said:


> VSE already has the points based product setup with Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex. They also have the Westin Aventuras in Mexico. I think the structure is there, they just don't have a lot of quality inventory in there yet. The have other fragmented points product out there along with weeks. I don't even know if they are selling weeks at VSE any more.



That's basically what John Geller said when he said:
"And historically, they've sold more of a weeks-based product. They've gone to the Points now, which actually will help facilitate that, but they, to Steve's point, I'm not sure they've done a lot of that."

I think MVW thinks they can do a better job in building out a points structure, whether they integrate it with the DC or just try to restructure the VSE program(s) in some fashion to resemble the DC more. The sense I got was they may be reluctant to buy back weeks unless they could turn around and put the weeks that were reacquired into one of the trusts. Has VSE put any ROFR'd/foreclosed weeks into their Flex products? Or are their Flex just previously unsold inventory?


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## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> Has VSE put any ROFR'd/foreclosed weeks into their Flex products? Or are their Flex just previously unsold inventory?


For Flex they get people to come to a sales presentation and get them to deed back their week ownership and pick up the equivalent number of points and add additional points by buying in to the flex product. They don't have ROFR at a lot of properties, but I would suspect that given the number of conveyances I have seen recorded for their flex products that many come from foreclosure, ROFR and people deeding back when they buy in to Flex.


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## JIMinNC

The other revealing thing was that almost all of the conversation centered around MVC and the VSE brands. Hyatt hardly came up. VSE clearly seems to be the focus due to the synergy with the common ownership now of all those brands by Marriott International.


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## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> For Flex they get people to come to a sales presentation and get them to deed back their week ownership and pick up the equivalent number of points and add additional points by buying in to the flex product. They don't have ROFR at a lot of properties, but I would suspect that given the number of conveyances I have seen recorded for their flex products that many come from foreclosure, ROFR and people deeding back when they buy in to Flex.



So if I understand you correctly, whereas MVC got existing weeks to play in their points system through the enrollment route and the DC Exchange, VSE actually has people give up their deeds and buy into pure points that way. I think the MVC approach is the better way.


----------



## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> So if I understand you correctly, whereas MVC got existing weeks to play in their points system through the enrollment route and the DC Exchange, VSE actually has people give up their deeds and buy into pure points that way. I think the MVC approach is the better way.


Correct, there is no option to enroll. Mainly because they already have a points overlay program where at 8 months your points can go anywhere. For all developer buyers and those with mandatory resales, they are already enrolled ala the Marriott approach. The only benefit that deeding back and buying in to Flex is that you can book at any property in the trust at the 12 month mark instead of only your home resort.

The main drawback to Flex, just like DC, is the rather high MF costs associated with most trust products. People have been convinced to sell back deeds that have low MF per SO ratios for what is a very high MF per Home Option ratio in Flex.

Flex was really just a product to package up undesirable weeks to sell as a points product. Somewhat like DC. Though of course, not all weeks in either program are undesirable. But points seem to be an easier sell in the current market.


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> Correct, there is no option to enroll. Mainly because they already have a points overlay program where at 8 months your points can go anywhere. For all developer buyers and those with mandatory resales, they are already enrolled ala the Marriott approach. The only benefit that deeding back and buying in to Flex is that you can book at any property in the trust at the 12 month mark instead of only your home resort.
> 
> The main drawback to Flex, just like DC, is the rather high MF costs associated with most trust products. People have been convinced to sell back deeds that have low MF per SO ratios for what is a very high MF per Home Option ratio in Flex.
> 
> Flex was really just a product to package up undesirable weeks to sell as a points product. Somewhat like DC. Though of course, not all weeks in either program are undesirable. But points seem to be an easier sell in the current market.



Under the VSE Flex model, it would seem that it would be much harder for them to get desirable weeks into the Flex (since those were all sold as deeded weeks), so if the high demand weeks aren't in the Flex, then what advantage is the 12 month booking vs booking at 8 months? Seems like even if you bought into Flex all the good stuff would still be at 8 months instead of 12 (if it wasn't all taken up by home resort owners). The MVC approach with the DC exchange seems like a much better way to get quality inventory available to the widest possible owner base. I recognize that VSE already had points, but if you have to wait until 8 months to book attractive weeks, I fail to see the appeal of Flex. The DC seems way more owner-friendly and an easier sell - even though it's still pricey. So, DC seems pricey but with good utility/usability; Flex seems pricey with questionable usability.


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## winger

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks. Wow that sucks. There is no notion of "skimming" in Hilton or Staroption systems. We will frequently stay at our home Hilton resort but use the points to upgrade to a larger unit, view, or fewer days - no skim - points are points. As long as you pay your MF you are entitled to use them anywhere in the system.
> 
> Why do they do this? Why do they care?


 They care because it improves their bottom line.  There is also no skimming over at Diamond Resorts, BTW


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## EZ-ED

I don't get to TUG that often anymore so am still wading thru all the comments regarding the II takeover by Marriott but after 3 or so pages I am at a loss to understand what Marriott hopes to accomplish, and why Marriott competitors such as Hyatt, Hilton, Westgate, etc would remain a part of II thus giving Marriott access to competitor company inside information (owners, trades). I see no reason from these types to remain within II and would be alarmed that a competitor had access to such information. As yet I have not seen a good case for this sale from Marriott's point or what they hope to accomplish. I do not have a good feeling about this just as I did not see the advantage of adding my Marriott week to the DC program.


----------



## JIMinNC

EZ-ED said:


> I don't get to TUG that often anymore so am still wading thru all the comments regarding the II takeover by Marriott but after 3 or so pages I am at a loss to understand what Marriott hopes to accomplish, and why Marriott competitors such as Hyatt, Hilton, Westgate, etc would remain a part of II thus giving Marriott access to competitor company inside information (owners, trades). I see no reason from these types to remain within II and would be alarmed that a competitor had access to such information. As yet I have not seen a good case for this sale from Marriott's point or what they hope to accomplish. I do not have a good feeling about this just as I did not see the advantage of adding my Marriott week to the DC program.



Buying the II exchange company is not the primary motivation behind this deal for Marriott. This deal happened because ILG owns Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club through their previous acquisition of Vistana. They also own the Hyatt Residence Club. Marriott Vacations Worldwide wants these locations and sales centers to boost their sales and create operating efficiencies. The Interval International exchange business is just a bonus that offers good cash flow and profitability with little capital expenditures required.


----------



## Marathoner

EZ-ED said:


> I don't get to TUG that often anymore so am still wading thru all the comments regarding the II takeover by Marriott but after 3 or so pages I am at a loss to understand what Marriott hopes to accomplish, and why Marriott competitors such as Hyatt, Hilton, Westgate, etc would remain a part of II thus giving Marriott access to competitor company inside information (owners, trades). I see no reason from these types to remain within II and would be alarmed that a competitor had access to such information. As yet I have not seen a good case for this sale from Marriott's point or what they hope to accomplish. I do not have a good feeling about this just as I did not see the advantage of adding my Marriott week to the DC program.



RCI is owned by Wyndham and soon, II will be owned by Marriott.  So, you (e.g. Westgate, Hilton, Welk, etc) would be sending your customers to a potential competitor no matter which venue option you choose.  It is also the case that in many industries, a company does business with a partner who has an affiliate which competes against you.  As long as everyone's business conduct is professional, this works.  

It is also the case that Marriott will want II revenues to grow and flourish.  This will only happen by keeping II week owners satisfied with good exchanges and this can only happen if II courts and reassures member timeshare systems to continue to partner with II through good client service and transparency.


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## JIMinNC

Marathoner said:


> It is also the case that in many industries, a company does business with a partner who has an affiliate which competes against you.  As long as everyone's business conduct is professional, this works.



Excellent point - a perfect example is the smartphone business. Apple's biggest competitor for the iPhone is the Samsung Galaxy series of phones. But Samsung is also one of Apple's biggest suppliers of components for the iPhone - displays, chips, and other electronics. So Samsung and Apple work together to build the iPhone, but they also compete vigorously in the retail market.


----------



## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> Under the VSE Flex model, it would seem that it would be much harder for them to get desirable weeks into the Flex (since those were all sold as deeded weeks), so if the high demand weeks aren't in the Flex, then what advantage is the 12 month booking vs booking at 8 months? Seems like even if you bought into Flex all the good stuff would still be at 8 months instead of 12 (if it wasn't all taken up by home resort owners). The MVC approach with the DC exchange seems like a much better way to get quality inventory available to the widest possible owner base. I recognize that VSE already had points, but if you have to wait until 8 months to book attractive weeks, I fail to see the appeal of Flex. The DC seems way more owner-friendly and an easier sell - even though it's still pricey. So, DC seems pricey but with good utility/usability; Flex seems pricey with questionable usability.


This is the big problem with Flex and why it a lot of people don't like it. It is good for booking properties in the trust, but you can't go outside of that for peak season weeks since those are usually booked by owners long before the eight month mark. Vistana also messed up and fragmented their trusts, which makes it harder to bring it all back together.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward

dioxide45 said:


> This is the big problem with Flex and why it a lot of people don't like it. I*t is good for booking properties in the trust, but you can't go outside of that for peak season weeks since those are usually booked by owners long before the eight month mark.* Vistana also messed up and fragmented their trusts, which makes it harder to bring it all back together.



This is the inherent problem with most points system. The rights of week owners versus points owners. If I am paying a premium (both in purchase and maintenance fees) for a premium week, why shouldn't I get first right to book? Am I not paying for that privilege? 

The Marriott DC system takes the opposite viewpoint. There is no inherent right to book first (before the point owners get to book) for existing weeks owners, merely an opaque division of inventory between the two. This the best possible system for a points owner, but not for a existing week owner.


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## VacationForever

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> This is the inherent problem with most points system. The rights of week owners versus points owners. If I am paying a premium (both in purchase and maintenance fees) for a premium week, why shouldn't I get first right to book? Am I not paying for that privilege?
> 
> The Marriott DC system takes the opposite viewpoint. There is no inherent right to book first (before the point owners get to book) for existing weeks owners, merely an opaque division of inventory between the two. This the best possible system for a points owner, but not for a existing week owner.


But with the opaque division of inventory, rights and priority of booking are not taken away from an existing week owner to book at what they own.  I am not understanding the last sentence.


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## SunandFun83

VacationForever said:


> I am wondering aloud whether this will pass the anti-trust scrutiny.


How can this be anti-trust when Marriott hotels was allowed to buy Starwood.  I think the total number of timeshare rooms is tiny compared to hotel rooms.  VRBO and Airbnb break a whole new world of vacation competition.


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## Ralph Sir Edward

VacationForever said:


> But with the opaque division of inventory, rights and priority of booking are not taken away from an existing week owner to book at what they own.  I am not understanding the last sentence.



To be more explicit. There are X weeks in a particular season. Furthermore, in every season, some weeks are in higher demand than others. How are the weeks divided between weeks owners (as a group) and points owners (as a group)? How does the splitting occur? Totally unknown. Does the DC trust "cream" the best weeks for the trust use? There is an inherent conflict between allocation for points owners and weeks owners for allocation of inventory.

I will give my real-life example. I was a single week Red (Platinum) owner of a Royal Palms. (Purchased resale, after 6/2010). I also has been given a White (hurricane/mud season) pre 6/2010, which I had enrolled in the Trust. In the particular case, I could book in May (low season) with the points from hurricane season. (Points system quirk.)

So at the 12 month window (no 13th month for a single Platinum week owner), I tried to get in. I missed the window by around 5 seconds (early) and couldn't get in for another 40 minutes. At which time the only Platinum season weeks left were in August. (I had been trying for Jan/Feb). 3 weeks later, my brother (a co-owner) called Marriott about the available choices. The response was most interesting. I could use my Trust points for the year in question and the next year can get the exact (high demand) week I wanted. No problem, they had lots of those unallocated weeks for my resort. . . (But no weeks inventory. . .)

So why could I not get it with my weeks but could get it with points? Well . . . . how is the inventory allocated? Clearly the DC Trust got the weeks before I could at 40 minutes in.

It was obvious that as a single week owner, I would always be at the last of the line. (II trade? More money for a maybe trade, to get what I couldn't get in the first place as an owner? No, not acceptable.)

Therefore, I sold back to Marriott, for almost enough money to buy at Bay Club in Hawaii. In the HGVC world, owning something means you get first crack at your ownership inventory, only competing with those owners who have the same ownership you do. Not being last in line. . .


----------



## GregT

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> To be more explicit. There are X weeks in a particular season. Furthermore, in every season, some weeks are in higher demand than others. How are the weeks divided between weeks owners (as a group) and points owners (as a group)? How does the splitting occur? Totally unknown. Does the DC trust "cream" the best weeks for the trust use? There is an inherent conflict between allocation for points owners and weeks owners for allocation of inventory.
> 
> I will give my real-life example. I was a single week Red (Platinum) owner of a Royal Palms. (Purchased resale, after 6/2010). I also has been given a White (hurricane/mud season) pre 6/2010, which I had enrolled in the Trust. In the particular case, I could book in May (low season) with the points from hurricane season. (Points system quirk.)
> 
> So at the 12 month window (no 13th month for a single Platinum week owner), I tried to get in. I missed the window by around 5 seconds (early) and couldn't get in for another 40 minutes. At which time the only Platinum season weeks left were in August. (I had been trying for Jan/Feb). 3 weeks later, my brother (a co-owner) called Marriott about the available choices. The response was most interesting. I could use my Trust points for the year in question and the next year can get the exact (high demand) week I wanted. No problem, they had lots of those unallocated weeks for my resort. . . (But no weeks inventory. . .)
> 
> So why could I not get it with my weeks but could get it with points? Well . . . . how is the inventory allocated? Clearly the DC Trust got the weeks before I could at 40 minutes in.
> 
> It was obvious that as a single week owner, I would always be at the last of the line. (II trade? More money for a maybe trade, to get what I couldn't get in the first place as an owner? No, not acceptable.)
> 
> Therefore, I sold back to Marriott, for almost enough money to buy at Bay Club in Hawaii. In the HGVC world, owning something means you get first crack at your ownership inventory, only competing with those owners who have the same ownership you do. Not being last in line. . .


What I believe happened in your example is that Marriott will hold back a certain percentage of the week’s to meet their projections for owners who will not be booking in owned week, and will instead Elect Points (or MRPs). 

They will do this evenly across all weeks in the season, and not cherry pick the prime weeks. In your example, it would appear that the week owners had fully booked the available week reservations, but no point owners had yet chosen to spend their points on the supply that was available.    Please note, they’re not holding back weeks specifically for point Reservations, they’re holding back weeks for the expected election of points by week owners. 

 It is a funny system, and I also prefer Hilton’s approach, however I do believe Marriotts does work and is fair. Remember they are are balancing the number of week owners that don’t book their week but elect points, and not the anticipated supply needed from people using their points on the remaining available weeks. 

Best,

Greg


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward

But which weeks? The allocation between systems is opaque. An owner has no way of knowing, either way.

Dioxide45 pointed out that in the Vistana system, the owners of weeks get first choice to reserve the prime weeks, leaving their points system with the "leftovers". That is precisely correct. I merely pointed out that Marriott does that internally, and nobody on the outside can see how the choices are made. Maybe perfectly evenly, maybe not. But it is clear that weeks owners in the Marriott world do not have any preference over the points system owners, and that both group are competing for the same properties. I perceive that as a "step down" in weeks ownership. Others may not.

I expect that any merged system, or super system, will maintain the existing Marriott method of dividing inventory. Whatever that actually is. . . .


----------



## Dean

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> To be more explicit. There are X weeks in a particular season. Furthermore, in every season, some weeks are in higher demand than others. How are the weeks divided between weeks owners (as a group) and points owners (as a group)? How does the splitting occur? Totally unknown. Does the DC trust "cream" the best weeks for the trust use? There is an inherent conflict between allocation for points owners and weeks owners for allocation of inventory.
> 
> I will give my real-life example. I was a single week Red (Platinum) owner of a Royal Palms. (Purchased resale, after 6/2010). I also has been given a White (hurricane/mud season) pre 6/2010, which I had enrolled in the Trust. In the particular case, I could book in May (low season) with the points from hurricane season. (Points system quirk.)
> 
> So at the 12 month window (no 13th month for a single Platinum week owner), I tried to get in. I missed the window by around 5 seconds (early) and couldn't get in for another 40 minutes. At which time the only Platinum season weeks left were in August. (I had been trying for Jan/Feb). 3 weeks later, my brother (a co-owner) called Marriott about the available choices. The response was most interesting. I could use my Trust points for the year in question and the next year can get the exact (high demand) week I wanted. No problem, they had lots of those unallocated weeks for my resort. . . (But no weeks inventory. . .)
> 
> So why could I not get it with my weeks but could get it with points? Well . . . . how is the inventory allocated? Clearly the DC Trust got the weeks before I could at 40 minutes in.
> 
> It was obvious that as a single week owner, I would always be at the last of the line. (II trade? More money for a maybe trade, to get what I couldn't get in the first place as an owner? No, not acceptable.)
> 
> Therefore, I sold back to Marriott, for almost enough money to buy at Bay Club in Hawaii. In the HGVC world, owning something means you get first crack at your ownership inventory, only competing with those owners who have the same ownership you do. Not being last in line. . .


I don't think it's as opaque as you do, it's simply about understanding the system.  Basically resorts are either all weeks, all trust or a combination.  It's the ones that have a combination of both (most resorts currently) that are in question.  Basically a weeks owner can only reserve the rooms that are actually in the weeks system and a trust owner (initially) can only do the same.  The enrolled owners can reserve trust inventory to the extent those trust owners have crossed over and the trust owners can only reserve the weeks inventory that has been exchanged for points by the owner (which may be Marriott themselves in some situations).  Thus any weeks at your resort that were not available were either not available because those weeks were in the trust itself (little if any at RP) or where other owners reserved a week which they may have later converted to points.  RP has a broad RED season, for others reading that may be new, inventory is released for a full weekend from the first check in date for that weekend which is Friday for RP.  So Sunday is available from 13 or 12 months plus 2 days for example, some start on Thursday.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward

Dean, I fully understand the system. Let me put it with the finest possible point, with a hypothetical situation.

I own at Marriott timeshare "X". Everybody else has sold their weeks back to Marriott (or converted them to DC points).

But I'm an old coot and want my week. I own one week.

Great, I can reserve my week from the pool of week owner's weeks.  . . 
Except. . . There's only one week in the pool.  (Because there is only one owner with one week. . . )

Which week is it? 

Marriott has followed the rules, legally. But in reality, I have no choice of weeks. Marriott chooses. And I don't even know how they chose. . .


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## dougp26364

Marriott accounted for this situation by making weeks and trust inventory very fluid. They maintained the right to move inventory BETWEEN the pools of availability. They also set up a system with II where they can capture deposited weeks by exchanging like for like, just so they can get the inventory they need for internal reservations. 

It is a complicated system made worse for owners when salesmen either don’t fully comprehend the system or stretch the truth to scare someone into spending more $ than is necessary


----------



## GregT

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Dean, I fully understand the system. Let me put it with the finest possible point, with a hypothetical situation.
> 
> I own at Marriott timeshare "X". Everybody else has sold their weeks back to Marriott (or converted them to DC points).
> 
> But I'm an old coot and want my week. I own one week.
> 
> Great, I can reserve my week from the pool of week owner's weeks.  . .
> Except. . . There's only one week in the pool.  (Because there is only one owner with one week. . . )
> 
> Which week is it?
> 
> Marriott has followed the rules, legally. But in reality, I have no choice of weeks. Marriott chooses. And I don't even know how they chose. . .



This is a perfect hypothetical -- as I understand it, Marriott would have to choose between making the week available to you (who owns the only week) or guessing whether or not you plan to either Elect Points for your week or redeem it for MRPs, in which case they would want to hold back the week to balance these elections.   If they guess wrong, then there is an imbalance in the system, and I suspect we experience imbalances that we do not recognize.

I do prefer the HGVC system -- either it is there or it is not, and I can understand when it is not.

Best,

Greg


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## CalGalTraveler

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> But which weeks? The allocation between systems is opaque. An owner has no way of knowing, either way.
> 
> Dioxide45 pointed out that in the Vistana system, the owners of weeks get first choice to reserve the prime weeks, leaving their points system with the "leftovers". That is precisely correct. I merely pointed out that Marriott does that internally, and nobody on the outside can see how the choices are made. Maybe perfectly evenly, maybe not. But it is clear that weeks owners in the Marriott world do not have any preference over the points system owners, and that both group are competing for the same properties. I perceive that as a "step down" in weeks ownership. Others may not.
> 
> I expect that any merged system, or super system, will maintain the existing Marriott method of dividing inventory. Whatever that actually is. . . .



HGVC also has a similar method of enabling owners priority reservations to reserve their week, then whatever is left over is given to points.  What is also different is that points are automatically assigned to the units at Hilton and enrolled upon sale - $599 enrollment is mandatory. My sense is that because a points system did not exist originally with Marriott, they wanted to monetize enrollment and then followed the industry with trust points.

IMO adding a points trading assignment to weeks similar to Vistana and Hilton makes sense. However a pure points trust system overly-complicates the Marriott system and causes such reservation system ideosynchracies and potential for devaluation.

They should have kept it simple like HGVC but they got greedy with the trust points to make up for the fact that they could not force all weeks owners to enroll given the original design of the weeks program.  At Hilton enrollment and points are designed from the ground up so not an issue.

The reason some systems went to points trusts was to avoid defaults and foreclosures on silver season weeks at certain resorts. In the HGVC system, trading is easy and fluid so that even a silver season owner can get some value at another resort during prime season by saving/borrowing points or shortening their week. This reduces defaults and need to deposit such units into a trust points system to keep HOAs solvent.


----------



## frank808

CalGalTraveler said:


> The reason some systems went to points trusts was to avoid defaults and foreclosures on silver season weeks at certain resorts. In the HGVC system, trading is easy and fluid so that even a silver season owner can get some value at another resort during prime season by saving/borrowing points or shortening their week. This reduces defaults and need to deposit such units into a trust points system to keep HOAs solvent.



Also lots of bronze weeks.

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk


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## Dean

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Dean, I fully understand the system. Let me put it with the finest possible point, with a hypothetical situation.
> 
> I own at Marriott timeshare "X". Everybody else has sold their weeks back to Marriott (or converted them to DC points).
> 
> But I'm an old coot and want my week. I own one week.
> 
> Great, I can reserve my week from the pool of week owner's weeks.  . .
> Except. . . There's only one week in the pool.  (Because there is only one owner with one week. . . )
> 
> Which week is it?
> 
> Marriott has followed the rules, legally. But in reality, I have no choice of weeks. Marriott chooses. And I don't even know how they chose. . .


Maybe you do understand it, I wasn't sure where you were.  The very fact you questioned it made we wonder because the system is working as it should.  This is the nature of both a points system and a floating weeks system.  You are indeed competing against other owners.  At the resort in question (RP) against other red week owners which is a fair chunk of members given how broad the red season is there.  But the demand across those red weeks are not equal so in reality it's more difficult to reserve some weeks over others and more people want those more difficult to reserve weeks.  This is inherent to the floating weeks system.  The reason you couldn't get the week you wanted was because others had reserved it, not because they were in the trust or Marriott had grabbed them up inappropriately.  Now they may end up in the trust because other owners take points and thus Trust owners will reserve weeks during that season as well but in reality this could help a weeks owner in some situations.  OF course the owner could trade those points for cruises or similar and then Marriott could step in and pick up rental weeks and I don't know how they do that.  For DVC they are not aggressive in doing so, I don't know how aggressively Marriott does so.  They still are supposed to follow the same reservation rules but if they're aggressive in doing so they have an inherent advantage over you or I.  

IMO the trust is even worse in this regard because there's not home resort or other priority one can get into other than the VIP system.  In general I do prefer the home resort priority type of points system but each side is good or bad depending.

As for your extreme example and as I understand it, the only week available would be the one you are deeded to.  Such is another risk of a floating week system, that it may change at some point so one has less or different options. And it has changed over the years, the 13 month reservation option came out of the HHI experience.  That too will likely change at some point.  

I think Hilton is similar to DVC in that they have a home resort priority.  It's been years since I looked at Hyatt but IIRC it was similar to the DC points in that you owned a week and traded for points.


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## Fairwinds

I’d like to be able to manage timeshare weeks, points and II deposits and trades from one MVC log in. Combine the best features of each website.


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## youppi

Hybrid system like HGVC, VSE, HRC are the best if you own a peak season at the resort with the lowest MF to get the highest point/$ ratio. Otherwise it's bad (think Harborside in low season vs Kierland in peak season). A pure trust point with 100% of the inventory is more fair where everybody pay the same MF per points and all have the same chance to book any resort except if they add the stupid loyalty level where people with more points (rich people) have advantage of booking earlier, get size upgrade and room selection. The problem with most trust points is they have been created to late (too many weeks have been sold, most best/prime weeks have been sold in the weeks system). The MF per point is too high because there is almost only low seasons weeks (low points weeks) in the trust and MF is the same for any weeks at a given resort.


----------



## BigMac

Interesting article by Motley Fool on the amount of debt VAC will end up with from the ILG purchase through the assumption of ILG's debt and debt raised to make the aquisition.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/hitc...n-214000632.html?soc_src=community&soc_trk=ma


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## AJCts411

BigMac said:


> Interesting article by Motley Fool on the amount of debt VAC will end up with from the ILG purchase through the assumption of ILG's debt and debt raised to make the aquisition.
> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/hitc...n-214000632.html?soc_src=community&soc_trk=ma


Interesting. The article uncovers, a higher debt to equity ratio, and "focus will be on debt reduction". So then are we to expect more focus on increasing cash flow...higher fees...and less focus on capital expenditures... new projects, proprieties, ROFR buys?


----------



## GregT

AJCts411 said:


> Interesting. The article uncovers, a higher debt to equity ratio, and "focus will be on debt reduction". So then are we to expect more focus on increasing cash flow...higher fees...and less focus on capital expenditures... new projects, proprieties, ROFR buys?


Yes, somewhere on this thread (or one of the others), we speculated that there will be less ROFR activity and that Marriott will be content with their $3/point junk fee when points trade hands.  This will (IMO) cause further pressure on Trust Point resale pricing - and $2/point may become the new target price point to pass ROFR.

Best,

Greg


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## Tn1911

Will we have access to all Westin and Sheratons resorts ???


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## VacationForever

You are asking the question 2 to 3 years too soon.


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## VacationForever

Link to the thread that the discussion has been taking place:

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...interval-leisure-group-ilg-discussion.273384/

_[Threads merged.]_


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## dougp26364

Probably, maybe, it could happen. IOW, time will tell.


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## SeaDoc

Tn1911 said:


> Will we have access to all Westin and Sheratons resorts ???


Doubt it.  They will all operate separately as they do today.  Time may change that, but don't expect any changes in the short term...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## MALC9990

As already stated, Time will Tell. However, I would like to think that there would be the option to book via D.C. points in some way and also improved opportunities via II exchanges.


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## dougp26364

SeaDoc said:


> Doubt it.  They will all operate separately as they do today.  Time may change that, but don't expect any changes in the short term...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



I’m curious about this thought. It seems to me that, as other systems have merged, all resorts have been folded into the availability pool. DRI has probably been the most active in purchasing and merging systems. I can’t think of any others off the top of my head. At any rate I don’t see as much value if MVW can’t merge the inventory of both stystems. It does seem to me that it has taken DRI years for their members to have reasonable access into new resorts purchased/merged by DRI. 

While I hope they do as there are a couple of Hyatt locations we’d like access too, I’m not holding my breath as to a timeframe. If they merge the inventory great. If they don’t it’s no big loss. At least it’s not for us at this point in our lives.


----------



## dioxide45

dougp26364 said:


> I’m curious about this thought. It seems to me that, as other systems have merged, all resorts have been folded into the availability pool. DRI has probably been the most active in purchasing and merging systems. I can’t think of any others off the top of my head. At any rate I don’t see as much value if MVW can’t merge the inventory of both stystems. It does seem to me that it has taken DRI years for their members to have reasonable access into new resorts purchased/merged by DRI.
> 
> While I hope they do as there are a couple of Hyatt locations we’d like access too, I’m not holding my breath as to a timeframe. If they merge the inventory great. If they don’t it’s no big loss. At least it’s not for us at this point in our lives.


The biggest merger that perhaps mirrors MVC/ILG is Wyndham and Shell. There still to this day is not really any major merging of their two systems. I think that high status level owners can perhaps make cross reservations using their Wyndham or Shell points in to the other properties, but generally they are not good use of your points.

Diamond is a little unique. They have in most cases been acquiring very small independent timeshare properties and folding them in to their system. Outside of Monarch Grand Vacations, they haven't made any other big name acquisitions that I am aware of. Their model seems to be to acquire and sell people new DRI points while taking back the deeded weeks to add them to the trust collections. Marriott could try something very similar, of course only time will tel.


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## VacationForever

dougp26364 said:


> I’m curious about this thought. It seems to me that, as other systems have merged, all resorts have been folded into the availability pool. DRI has probably been the most active in purchasing and merging systems. I can’t think of any others off the top of my head. At any rate I don’t see as much value if MVW can’t merge the inventory of both stystems. It does seem to me that it has taken DRI years for their members to have reasonable access into new resorts purchased/merged by DRI.
> 
> While I hope they do as there are a couple of Hyatt locations we’d like access too, I’m not holding my breath as to a timeframe. If they merge the inventory great. If they don’t it’s no big loss. At least it’s not for us at this point in our lives.


Wyndham keeps all 3 systems, Wyndham, Shell and Worldmark, separate and only allows developer-purchased points to book across into the other 2 systems at 10 months.  I think this maximizes $ to Wyndham's pockets.  MVC will be smart to do the same in pushing for owners to buy from the developer so that they can book across into the other 2 systems at 10 months or something like that.  Most owners are loyal to one brand and are heavily invested in one. By keeping them separate, these owners are incentivised to buy more from the developer so that they can book into the other systems, or that they will now be educated about the availability in the other systems and buy directly in those systems.  Lots of sales opportunities to get new money.  Combining all 3 under one program will see decreased sales as a whole as opposed to increased sales.


----------



## dougp26364

VacationForever said:


> Wyndham keeps all 3 systems, Wyndham, Shell and Worldmark, separate and only allows developer-purchased points to book across into the other 2 systems at 10 months.  I think this maximizes $ to Wydham's pockets.  MVC will be smart to do the same in pushing for owners to buy from the developer so that they can book across into the other 2 systems at 10 months or something like that.  Most owners are loyal to one brand and are heavily invested in one. By keeping them separate, these owners are incentivised to buy more from the developer so that they can book into the other systems, or that they will now be educated about the availability in the other systems and buy directly in those systems.  Lots of sales opportunities to get new money.  Combining all 3 under one program will see decreased sales as a whole as opposed to increased sales.



Interesting perspective. I have no doubt they’ll slant things to favor developer purchased inventory for the biggest bang in booking between systems, assuming they allow it at all. 

Personally I’d LOVE to have access to a few of the Hyatt locations, but at the end of the day, I’m not handing over thousands of dollars for that access. I’d be happy with a 9 month or 10 month window. Anything less than that and I’ll be less than thrilled. It would probably make cross system booking nearly worthless with how we plan out our vacations.


----------



## VacationForever

Without combining the systems, the current owners lose nothing and have no grounds for complaints.  If the systems are combined, some owners may be happier because they have access to more inventory but some will be unhappy to have more competition for the same units that were in the old system.  The main thing is it does not bring high $ sales to MVCI.  Hence I believe many of the speculations here about a combined system is wishful thinking.


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## Steve Fatula

VacationForever said:


> Without combining the systems, the current owners lose nothing and have no grounds for complaints.  If the systems are combined, some owners may be happier because they have access to more inventory but some will be unhappy to have more competition for the same units that were in the old system.  The main thing is it does not bring high $ sales to MVCI.  Hence I believe many of the speculations here about a combined system is wishful thinking.



Not sure I agree. Keeping the systems as is means more likely sales as is unless something big changes. Sales as is does not pay the purchase price. Something major has to happen to have a major cash inflow. Status quo is not possible.


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## Ralph Sir Edward

Which is why I think there will be something like a "superpoint system", so they can "milk" more money out of all their existing owners. . .


----------



## VacationForever

Steve Fatula said:


> Not sure I agree. Keeping the systems as is means more likely sales as is unless something big changes. Sales as is does not pay the purchase price. Something major has to happen to have a major cash inflow. Status quo is not possible.


But I am not talking about total status quo, keep them separate and then introduce a benefit to book across systems at 10, 9 or 8 months with developer-bought points will make huge $ for MVCI.


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## gblotter

Steve Fatula said:


> Keeping the systems as is means more likely sales as is unless something big changes. Sales as is does not pay the purchase price. Something major has to happen to have a major cash inflow. Status quo is not possible.


I agree with this reasoning, but who knows what the future actually holds. Uncertainty about future plans for a possible "superpoint" system could paralyze sales of existing Destination Points (but most potential buyers are not paying attention).


----------



## youppi

dougp26364 said:


> I’m curious about this thought. It seems to me that, as other systems have merged, all resorts have been folded into the availability pool. DRI has probably been the most active in purchasing and merging systems. I can’t think of any others off the top of my head. At any rate I don’t see as much value if MVW can’t merge the inventory of both stystems. It does seem to me that it has taken DRI years for their members to have reasonable access into new resorts purchased/merged by DRI.
> 
> While I hope they do as there are a couple of Hyatt locations we’d like access too, I’m not holding my breath as to a timeframe. If they merge the inventory great. If they don’t it’s no big loss. At least it’s not for us at this point in our lives.


Normally,

DRI move the unsold inventory to a Collection trust affiliated to THE Club like US Collection, Hawaii Collection, ...
DRI Create a collection separated from THE Club for existing members of the acquired system and manage it separately.
DRI move units to a Collection trust affiliated to THE Club each time an owner pay to convert its weeks/points to a Collection affiliated to THE Club by buying points from the Collection affiliated to THE Club.
Sometime they give access to some of THE Club resorts to the acquired system and form a mini system to tease those owners about THE Club resorts like
https://cmstest.diamondresorts.com/...ch-Grand-Vacation-Club-Collection-Booklet.pdf
https://cmstest.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/florida-club-connection-booklet-test.pdf
https://cmstest.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/DMCC-booklet.pdf


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> But I am not talking about total status quo, keep them separate and then introduce a benefit to book across systems at 10, 9 or 8 months with developer-bought points will make huge $ for MVCI.



If MVC were to introduce a new "Super Point" system that integrated all inventory, it would need to have a 13 month booking window option at the higher benefits levels to make it attractive. I bought at Executive Level for the 13 month booking window. I would not pay into a new system that offered me less than what I have because by 8-10 months, less good dates and locations would be available that I can already get at 13 months with MVC at the luxury resorts (currently only a handful of Ritz Carltons) and at 12 months at my home resort with Westin. 8-10 months would be a downgrade and not worth paying extra for since with Star Options, I can already book across all their resorts in this timeframe. My gut says MVC will not do a new "super point" system. It is too complicated. I think they will follow the model of the Marriott Hotel merger with SPG Hotels and integrate the MVC and Vistana systems and grandfather in people with points in either MVC or Vistana and keep weeks owners the same unless weeks owners buy points, like the offer they have going now. If the new DC program is attractive enough, it may be worth it to weeks owners to buy 3000, 4000 or 5500 to enroll their post 2010 weeks and MVC can make a lot of money that way.

One thing no one has mentioned and that would be extremely attractive to me to buy more points would be if the new DC Points program expanded their luxury timeshares and converted rooms in more of the Ritz Carltons and the St Regus into 2 bedroom units we could book with DC Points. I would certainly want to move up to Chairman's Level if the new DC had a timeshare luxury collection like the hotel side.


----------



## VacationForever

TravelTime said:


> If MVC were to introduce a new "Super Point" system that integrated all inventory, it would need to have a 13 month booking window option at the higher benefits levels to make it attractive. I bought at Executive Level for the 13 month booking window. I would not pay into a new system that offered me less than what I have because by 8-10 months, less good dates and locations would be available that I can already get at 13 months with MVC at the luxury resorts (currently only a handful of Ritz Carltons) and at 12 months at my home resort with Westin. 8-10 months would be a downgrade and not worth paying extra for since with Star Options, I can already book across all their resorts in this timeframe. My gut says MVC will not do a new "super point" system. It is too complicated. I think they will follow the model of the Marriott Hotel merger with SPG Hotels and integrate the MVC and Vistana systems and grandfather in people with points in either MVC or Vistana and keep weeks owners the same unless weeks owners buy points, like the offer they have going now. If the new DC program is attractive enough, it may be worth it to weeks owners to buy 3000, 4000 or 5500 to enroll their post 2010 weeks and MVC can make a lot of money that way.
> 
> One thing no one has mentioned and that would be extremely attractive to me to buy more points would be if the new DC Points program expanded their luxury timeshares and converted rooms in more of the Ritz Carltons and the St Regus into 2 bedroom units we could book with DC Points. I would certainly want to move up to Chairman's Level if the new DC had a timeshare luxury collection like the hotel side.


I have never suggested a Super Point system - it is bad for business as it won't bring more money to MVCI when you let existing owners instant access to all 3 brands of inventory.  What I think MVCI might do is to keep the 3 point systems as they are, except Vistana may have some cleaning up to do and possibly Hyatt and its new point systems, and then to book across into the other 2 brands, you need developer bought point to access at 10/9/8 months out.


----------



## GregT

GregT said:


> All, don't we always do predictions (that lack any factual basis) when something major is announced?
> 
> I would like to make my predictions as follows:
> 
> 1) Marriott-to-Marriott preference trading via II will remain unchanged (and similar results as the past)
> 2) Starwood-to-Starwood preference trading via II will remain unchanged (and similar results as the past)
> 3) Starwood owners will continue to be able to trade to other Starwood properties using StarOptions
> 4) Starwood owners wishing to book Marriott properties (not via II trade) will need to buy Trust Points (which enrolls the Starwood week)
> 5) Marriott owners wishing to book Starwood properties (not via II trade) will need to use Trust Points
> 6) Some Starwood inventory will be deposited into the Trust for WSJ and the four Mexico properties
> 7) Hyatt properties will only be accessible to Starwood/Marriott owners via II trade
> 8) II trade fees will continue to increase
> 9) We will continue to see hotel conversions of Starwood/Marriott properties as the primarily source of new properties
> 10) Those hotel conversions will be deposited into the Marriott Trust
> 11) HGVC will become a hot target, as Diamond and Wyndham look to compete with Marriott's planted flag in the high-end space
> 12) Directly purchased Trust Points (and grandfathered Trust Points) will become valuable
> 13) There will be an amnesty for post-2010 weeks to be enrolled (for a fee), but time will prove that Elected Points are powerful in the Marriott system and less so for the broader system that is being created.
> 
> I do think if anyone is on the fence about buying Trust Points (resale), you should buy them now before the merger is completed.   I am speculating, but I believe that Trust Points will be the skeleton key that accesses everything.   And that Marriott will discriminate between Directly purchased Trust Points and resale Trust Points -- but will grandfather existing resales, kind of like the pre-2010/post-2010 weeks.  Wyndham discriminates between resale points and directly purchased points, and Marriott could too.
> 
> This opens up an entire universe of potential Trust Point purchasers to Marriott and they must be salivating like Pavlov's dog.   We will see pictures of Westin St. John, Cancun and Cabo San Lucas in every Marriott sales office -- and Starwood sales offices will show Aruba, Newport Coast and the Big Island.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.  I do not think it will be harmful for us, and there will be benefits if there is a post-2010 amnesty (since now Marriott needs even more Marriott inventory available because of the potential demand).   This is all *pure speculation*, but this is what I would do if I was designing the system.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



It's interesting to see the back and forth from many of my fellow TUGgers.

I'm quoting myself, but I still believe this is how it will end up.  This doesn't create a super point system, but it does allow cross-pollination of the Starwood and Marriott systems (with Trust points) and yet each system remains intact as a standalone -- so they "don't take anything away" from the existing ownership.

Best,

Greg


----------



## l0410z

Maybe this is rambling more than a point so let me apologize in advance. 

I created a few timeshare FB groups (II, HHI and Monarch).  They are not huge but across all three we have maybe 3000 members but a fair sample.  Many members are mid 50 and above, a lot are retired or near retirement.  I never gave it much thought before but I  believe that timeshares are a baby boomer thing.   

I am not a market timer but I am a battle tested investor and markets don't go up and down forever.  The includes stock market, real estate, interest rates and Bitcoin (or whatever new cryptocurrency gets created).  Marriott could not have timed the DP program any better and it has enjoyed the perfect environment for a continued increase based on purely creating marketing demand with no real equivalent underlying value.   

This merger has cost synergy, marketing synergy and cross branding synergy no question about that.  Whatever MVCI marketing / sales strategy they develop and execute, they need to be careful they do not alienate their core base of (aging) baby boomers  at the same the perfect environment starts  deteriorating.    Simplification and inclusion will be the direction they will take.  What will that mean, I have no clue.


----------



## gblotter

I attended a timeshare sales presentation today at Grande Ocean. It was a very pleasant experience overall. The sales agent was quick to mention the ILG acquisition, highlighting that ILG properties would soon be available for Destinations Club Point reservations (by year-end). The "Super Point" program *IS* the existing Marriott Destinations Club program, and ILG owners will be invited to join. He claimed that all unsold ILG inventory will be placed in the Destinations Club trust, so it's all legal.

Yes, I know - his lips were moving.


----------



## JIMinNC

gblotter said:


> I attended a timeshare sales presentation today at Grande Ocean. It was a very pleasant experience overall. The sales agent was quick to mention the ILG acquisition, highlighting that ILG properties would soon be available for Destinations Club Point reservations (by year-end). The "Super Point" program *IS* the existing Marriott Destinations Club program, and ILG owners will be invited to join. He claimed that all unsold ILG inventory will be placed in the Destinations Club trust, so it's all legal.
> 
> Yes, I know - his lips were moving.



The transaction isn't even scheduled to close legally until September 30, so it's hard to imagine any real customer-facing changes would occur as soon as year end. I suspect his year end statement was referring to the legal merger -- blended with an ample dose of "sales hyperbole".

I've felt from the beginning that if and when they do link the "clubs", the Destination Club is the most likely vehicle for that linkage rather than a Super Points system. An overlaid points system just seems to be an added complexity on top of already complex structures.


----------



## gblotter

JIMinNC said:


> The transaction isn't even scheduled to close legally until September 30


I actually raised this, but my salesman insisted the deal was finalized in April. I didn't press the point with him.


----------



## bizaro86

It would be against the law for Marriott and ILG staff to have discussed their post merger plan. 

If they decided to do so illegally, I guarantee a salesman wouldn't be involved.


----------



## dioxide45

gblotter said:


> He claimed that all unsold ILG inventory will be placed in the Destinations Club trust, so it's all legal.


I am not sure there is really all that many unsold weeks that they could add to the trust. Vistana already created two flex programs; Sheraton Flex and Westin Flex. Any unsold weeks would have already been conveyed to those trusts. They do have new weeks that they acquire through buyback, ROFR (limited) and foreclosure. I suspect that wouldn't really amount to much. They have lots of unsold inventory, it is just all tied up in their trusts. I think removing it to place it in to the DC trust would have challenges. Not impossible, but not really all that easy either.


----------



## controller1

bizaro86 said:


> It would be against the law for Marriott and ILG staff to have discussed their post merger plan.
> 
> If they decided to do so illegally, I guarantee a salesman wouldn't be involved.



Having been involved in several public company mergers in the U.S. that dwarf this merger, I can guarantee you that your statement is incorrect.  At this point in the pre-merger timeframe there are a dozen or more teams comprised of specialists from both companies designing post-merger operations, etc.

As to whether a salesman would be privy to the details, I doubt it.


----------



## bizaro86

controller1 said:


> Having been involved in several public company mergers in the U.S. that dwarf this merger, I can guarantee you that your statement is incorrect.  At this point in the pre-merger timeframe there are a dozen or more teams comprised of specialists from both companies designing post-merger operations, etc.
> 
> As to whether a salesman would be privy to the details, I doubt it.



That was put poorly, I apologize. However, a planned merger does not provide antitrust immunity, and pricing and anti-competitive information cannot be shared. Prosecutions have occurred in the past. 

For more see: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blo...avoiding-antitrust-pitfalls-during-pre-merger


----------



## JIMinNC

gblotter said:


> I actually raised this, but my salesman insisted the deal was finalized in April. I didn't press the point with him.



He is correct that the agreement to merge was finalized/announced in April. However, the merger has to go through the normal post-agreement regulatory approvals and other such details before the transaction can be consummated. Steve Weisz said during their last quarter earnings conference call that the transaction would close financially/legally by September 30. That means on that closing date, ILG stock will no longer trade and ILG will become wholly-owned by Marriott Vacations Worldwide. But...that will likely include very few, if any, operational merger details. Those will all come later. Immediately after "legal" merger, the two companies will basically continue separate operations as usual and any operational changes/combinations will happen over time. The sale rep probably doesn't understand how mergers work...or he does and was just hoping you didn't!


----------



## controller1

JIMinNC said:


> . . .
> Steve Weisz said during their last quarter earnings conference call that the transaction would close financially/legally by September 30. That means on that closing date, ILG stock will no longer trade and ILG will become wholly-owned by Marriott Vacations Worldwide.
> . . .



And that date is still an estimate.  The merger still hasn't cleared Hart-Scott-Rodino even though that is not anticipated to be a problem.


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## rpk113

Having also been in a merger, I would say some things are being worked on.  Some are not..  I would say IT things (on a high level) are being worked on (can the DP website query the Vistana or Hyatt inventory)...  I would say current real estate agreements are not...  Folks in a merger like to go right to the line of what they can/can't do.  But agree with previous posts, that line is never crossed.


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## dougp26364

I was recently in a sales presentation at a timeshare we own (we rarely go but these guys have truely been low key and I was curious about the new additional building build out dates). We got to talking about II and I casually mentioned MVW’s purchase of ILG and he hadn’t heard about it. I pulled up the article and he took it to his boss. When he came back he said his boss told him it was a “done deal”.And would be closing in 5 months. 

Of course we all know how reliable information from the sales floor can be but, when a direct competitor in Breckenridge (both Hyatt and Marriott) have a merger on the table that could affect your bottom line, not to mention alter the exchange landscape, admits that it’s a “done deal”, it probably is in the eyes of the industry.


----------



## dioxide45

It is a done deal, no one is really arguing that. There really shouldn't be any reason why the deal doesn't close. Of course anything can happen between now and the closing date.


----------



## JIMinNC

dougp26364 said:


> I was recently in a sales presentation at a timeshare we own (we rarely go but these guys have truely been low key and I was curious about the new additional building build out dates). We got to talking about II and I casually mentioned MVW’s purchase of ILG and he hadn’t heard about it. I pulled up the article and he took it to his boss. When he came back he said his boss told him it was a “done deal”.And would be closing in 5 months.
> 
> Of course we all know how reliable information from the sales floor can be but, when a direct competitor in Breckenridge (both Hyatt and Marriott) have a merger on the table that could affect your bottom line, not to mention alter the exchange landscape, admits that it’s a “done deal”, it probably is in the eyes of the industry.



As dioxide45 said, the question on the table isn’t if it’s a done deal - it is. Terms are agreed to and it’s been officially announced. It just has go go through routine regulatory hurdles to close on schedule in September. The question on the table is how will Marriott Vacations Worldwide choose to integrate Vistana and Hyatt with Marriott Vacation Club and how many months or years will it be before those integration plans are implemented?


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## BigMac

Both Marriott and ILG shareholders were scheduled to hold a vote August 28th to approve the merger. Now one of the many law firms investigating the deal has filed a class action Suit against ILG et Al. Assume this will disrupt the merger but who knows?
https://www.globenewswire.com/news-...-Files-Class-Action-Suit-Against-ILG-Inc.html


----------



## VacationForever

BigMac said:


> Both Marriott and ILG shareholders were scheduled to hold a vote August 28th to approve the merger. Now one of the many law firms investigating the deal has filed a class action Suit against ILG et Al. Assume this will disrupt the merger but who knows?
> https://www.globenewswire.com/news-...-Files-Class-Action-Suit-Against-ILG-Inc.html


August 28 or September 24?  Article indicates Sep 24 for shareholders to join this suit.


----------



## BigMac

VacationForever said:


> August 28 or September 24?  Article indicates Sep 24 for shareholders to join this suit.


August 28th was the date scheduled by both Marriott and ILG to hold separate shareholders meetings to approve the merger. Nothing to do with a lawsuit just filed by a third party.


----------



## VacationForever

BigMac said:


> August 28th was the date scheduled by both Marriott and ILG to hold separate shareholders meetings to approve the merger. Nothing to do with a lawsuit just filed by a third party.


So if approved by shareholders on the takeover, this lawsuit comes after, so will it be in time to stop or reverse the action?

I highly suspect this class action lawsuit is intended to have Marriott pay more and not to stop it.


----------



## controller1

BigMac said:


> Both Marriott and ILG shareholders were scheduled to hold a vote August 28th to approve the merger. Now one of the many law firms investigating the deal has filed a class action Suit against ILG et Al. Assume this will disrupt the merger but who knows?
> https://www.globenewswire.com/news-...-Files-Class-Action-Suit-Against-ILG-Inc.html



Show me a merger that doesn't have a class action lawsuit filed against it!  It is done all the time with the disguised reason that the company being acquired did not do their due diligence and therefore should have required a higher purchase price.  The only winners in these types of lawsuits in mergers are the lawyers.

The lawsuit should not delay nor disrupt the merger.


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## GregT

controller1 said:


> Show me a merger that doesn't have a class action lawsuit filed against it!  It is done all the time with the disguised reason that the company being acquired did not do their due diligence and therefore should have required a higher purchase price.  The only winners in these types of lawsuits in mergers are the lawyers.
> 
> The lawsuit should not delay nor disrupt the merger.


Concur - the merger will close as scheduled, the suit will go on (and Marriott will prevail).  

I believe this is a non-event. 

Best,

Greg


----------



## BigMac

just got the shareholder materials for the merger vote. interestingly MVC management began looking at ILG as early as May 2016. Below is an extract of some of the reasons MVC gives for their pursuing a merger. I've highlighted some areas of interest.

Strategic and Financial Benefits of the Combination Transactions 
• Combining MVW and ILG would *create a leading upper-upscale vacation ownership company with locations in key destinations and create a more globally diversified company, *with increased scale, geographic presence, diversity of revenue streams and product offerings; 
• The complementary asset and brand portfolios and strengths of MVW and ILG and the expectation that ILG’s exchange network would expand operating margins; 
• The expectation that MVW would achieve a minimum of $75 million of targeted annual cost synergies by leveraging operational and general and administrative cost efficiencies; 
• The expectation that adding the *exclusive right to use the Westin and Sheraton brands in the vacation ownership business *represents a strong strategic fit in conjunction with brands that MVW licenses from Marriott International and *enhances MVW’s ability to deliver membership benefits*; 
• The expectation that adding the *exclusive right to use the Hyatt brand in the vacation ownership business would broaden and diversify MVW’s vacation ownership platform*; 
• The expectation of sales growth with respect to ILG’s vacation ownership business and potential for further improvement when combined with opportunities provided by MVW’s agreements with Marriott International; 
• The expectation that the free cash flow from the combined businesses after the Combination Transactions would be strong and allow for MVW to advance further growth prospects, enhance stockholder returns and/or repay debt.


----------



## Luvtoride

BigMac said:


> just got the shareholder materials for the merger vote. interestingly MVC management began looking at ILG as early as May 2016. Below is an extract of some of the reasons MVC gives for their pursuing a merger. I've highlighted some areas of interest.
> 
> Strategic and Financial Benefits of the Combination Transactions
> • Combining MVW and ILG would *create a leading upper-upscale vacation ownership company with locations in key destinations and create a more globally diversified company, *with increased scale, geographic presence, diversity of revenue streams and product offerings;
> • The complementary asset and brand portfolios and strengths of MVW and ILG and the expectation that ILG’s exchange network would expand operating margins;
> • The expectation that MVW would achieve a minimum of $75 million of targeted annual cost synergies by leveraging operational and general and administrative cost efficiencies;
> • The expectation that adding the *exclusive right to use the Westin and Sheraton brands in the vacation ownership business *represents a strong strategic fit in conjunction with brands that MVW licenses from Marriott International and *enhances MVW’s ability to deliver membership benefits*;
> • The expectation that adding the *exclusive right to use the Hyatt brand in the vacation ownership business would broaden and diversify MVW’s vacation ownership platform*;
> • The expectation of sales growth with respect to ILG’s vacation ownership business and potential for further improvement when combined with opportunities provided by MVW’s agreements with Marriott International;
> • The expectation that the free cash flow from the combined businesses after the Combination Transactions would be strong and allow for MVW to advance further growth prospects, enhance stockholder returns and/or repay debt.



Very interesting Big Mac.  Thanks for providing this.  The sales team here at Aruba Surf Club were not commenting on any post merger changes or benefits which was appropriate.  In addition they had little knowledge about the MArriott Rewards program changes.  I knew much more from following the discussions here on TUG!  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mjm1

Thanks BigMac. That comment about Hyatt would seem to indicate they plan to keep the Hyatt VOA rather than spinning it off. This will be interesting to see how the overall program evolves.

Best regards.

Mike


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## BigMac

mjm1 said:


> Thanks BigMac. That comment about Hyatt would seem to indicate they plan to keep the Hyatt VOA rather than spinning it off. This will be interesting to see how the overall program evolves.[/
> 
> So MVC might plan to keep Hyatt but there was a line item in the "risk" section which implies Hyatt has the right to withdraw. No idea whether they would but egos will probably decide.
> *Hyatt’s right to terminate or take other actions with respect to its license with ILG following the consummation of the Combination Transactions*


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## mjm1

I suspect it will come down to how much money Hyatt would want for allowing MVC to do what they are thinking of with the Hyatt timeshare business. Time will tell.

Mike


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## JIMinNC

BigMac said:


> So MVC might plan to keep Hyatt but there was a line item in the "risk" section which implies Hyatt has the right to withdraw. No idea whether they would but egos will probably decide.
> *Hyatt’s right to terminate or take other actions with respect to its license with ILG following the consummation of the Combination Transactions*



I wonder what those "other actions" are that Hyatt has the right to take? The way that is worded, it seems they could at least opt to terminate their license agreement, meaning VAC would have to take the Hyatt name off of those properties and wouldn't be able to market to Hyatt guests/loyalty members. It would be simple enough to rebrand them as Marriott Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club, but that would seem to be significantly complicated by Hyatt timeshare locations that are co-located with Hyatt hotels.

How many of the Hyatt timeshares share facilities/grounds with a Hyatt hotel?


----------



## BigMac

J*IMinNC said -I wonder what those "other actions" are that Hyatt has the right to take? The way that is worded, it seems they could at least opt to terminate their license agreement, meaning VAC would have to take the Hyatt name off of those properties and wouldn't be able to market to Hyatt guests/loyalty members. It would be simple enough to rebrand them as Marriott Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club, but that would seem to be significantly complicated by Hyatt timeshare locations that are co-located with Hyatt hotels.

How many of the Hyatt timeshares share facilities/grounds with a Hyatt hotel?*

Good Point. I guess the issue is who owns the properties. Hopefully ILG and eventually Marriott. If Hyatt wants to exit their name so be it. Here is the list of properties. It looks like some of them are attached to a Hyatt hotel but not all. Maybe someone knows.

*Hyatt Residence Club*
Hyatt Residence Club At Park Hyatt Beaver Creek Avon, Colorado Mountain
Hyatt Residence Club Beaver Creek, Mountain Lodge Beaver Creek, Colorado Mountain
Hyatt Residence Club Bonita Springs, Coconut Plantation Bonita Springs, Florida Beach
Hyatt Residence Club Breckenridge, Main Street Station Breckenridge, Colorado Mountain
Hyatt Residence Club Carmel, Highlands Inn Carmel, California Beach 
Hyatt Residence Club Dorado, Hacienda del Mar Dorado, Puerto Rico Beach
Hyatt Residence Club Grand Aspen Aspen, Colorado Mountain
Hyatt Residence Club Key West, Beach House Key West, Florida Beach
Hyatt Residence Club Key West, Sunset Harbor Key West, Florida Beach
Hyatt Residence Club Key West, Windward Pointe Key West, Florida Beach 
Hyatt Residence Club Lake Tahoe, High Sierra Lodge Incline Village, Nevada Mountain
Hyatt Residence Club Lake Tahoe, Northstar Lodge Truckee, California Mountain
Hyatt Residence Club Maui, Kāʻanapali Beach Lahaina, Hawaii Beach 
Hyatt Residence Club San Antonio, Wild Oak Ranch San Antonio, Texas Country
Hyatt Residence Club Sarasota, Siesta Key Beach Siesta Key, Florida Beach
Hyatt Residence Club Sedona, Piñon Pointe Sedona, Arizona Desert


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## CalGalTraveler

Depends if the Hyatt residences are in separate buildings with separate lobbies. For example, although the Hyatt Kaanapali Residences are on the Hyatt Kaanapali grounds it has a separate lobby and the building is right next door to MVC (!) It could very easily become re-branded as MVC X Tower, or a Ritz Carlton Residence or ???. Might take a vote of the HOA to approve re-branding but I don't think anyone would take issue with the Ritz Carlton vs. Hyatt brand.

If Hyatt residences have dedicated floors within a hotel, separating those properties would be more difficult.


----------



## JIMinNC

CalGalTraveler said:


> Depends if the Hyatt residences are in separate buildings with separate lobbies. For example, although the Hyatt Kaanapali Residences are on the Hyatt Kaanapali grounds it has a separate lobby and the building is right next door to MVC (!) It could very easily become re-branded as MVC X Tower, or a Ritz Carlton Residence or ???. Might take a vote of the HOA to approve re-branding but I don't think anyone would have an issue with the Ritz Carlton vs. Hyatt brand.
> 
> If Hyatt residences have dedicated floors within a hotel, separating those properties would be more difficult.



In addition to separate buildings/lobbies, the other issue would be parking. Do they share parking with a Hyatt hotel? What is the parking arrangement at Hyatt Maui? 

The only one I'm familiar with from the above list is Sedona, and I believe that is a standalone property with no associated hotel.


----------



## Swice

Hyatt Bonita Springs in Coconut Plantation, Florida is all by itself.   There is a Hyatt Hotel a short walk down the street.   However, as I recall, they do share a access to a neat beach on an island.   You take a small boat to an island for the "beach."   The beachhouse (with a multi purpose room, restrooms and a small restaurant) is owned by a housing development HOA and both Hyatt properties pay an access fee for their guests to use.     Seemed like a great idea for the HOA to gain some revenue from the Hyatt to defray costs in my opinion.


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## mjm1

Highlands Inn in the Carmel Highlands has a shared lobby, restaurant and pool, but Sedona is standalone.

Mike


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## controller1

My understanding is that MVC owners get night credits in Marriott Rewards for their timeshare stays, is that correct?  If so, will that continue.

Starwood/Vistana has never allowed this and if MVC continues this I'm hopeful it will be adopted for all MVC properties, legacy and new.


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## Saintsfanfl

controller1 said:


> My understanding is that MVC owners get night credits in Marriott Rewards for their timeshare stays, is that correct?  If so, will that continue.
> 
> Starwood/Vistana has never allowed this and if MVC continues this I'm hopeful it will be adopted for all MVC properties, legacy and new.



All Marriott rewards members get credit for stays at timeshare properties, not just MVC owners. Nobody knows if this will change or not to exclude timeshare weeks without excluding paid nightly stays. I am betting it will not change.


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## jeepie

Saintsfanfl said:


> All Marriott rewards members get credit for stays at timeshare properties, not just MVC owners. Nobody knows if this will change or not to exclude timeshare weeks without excluding paid nightly stays. I am betting it will not change.


Correct, nothing but crickets from MVC. I was told by my MVC sales guy that he found out that MVC nights will NOT count towards status (I was asking about 100 night Ambassador status) nor would MFs count towards $20k Spend. This was a month ago, but nothing new since. Very disappointing to have MVC seem to just defer to MR and apparently not go to bat for owners. The outcome will definitely determine my commitment...and future purchases...of MVC interests. Cheers.


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## VacationForever

jeepie said:


> Correct, nothing but crickets from MVC. I was told by my MVC sales guy that he found out that MVC nights will NOT count towards status (I was asking about 100 night Ambassador status) nor would MFs count towards $20k Spend. This was a month ago, but nothing new since. Very disappointing to have MVC seem to just defer to MR and apparently not go to bat for owners. The outcome will definitely determine my commitment...and future purchases...of MVC interests. Cheers.


The question is how reliable is the information.  I do understand MF not counting against the $20K spending.  But no reason to not count MVC nights in the future. I see this as another case of a salesperson's lips were moving.


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## jeepie

VacationForever said:


> The question is how reliable is the information.  I do understand MF not counting against the $20K spending.  But no reason to not count MVC nights in the future. I see this as another case of a salesperson's lips were moving.


Agreed; however, I could easily make the case that MFs pay for stays. I will probably not have that opportunity, though!


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## dougp26364

I think, from an owners perspective, it’s VERY easy to make a case for MF and nights counting. It would be very easy to view this as contractually pre-paid nights/stays. For MVC it’s guarenteed income whether or not you actually stay in a MVC property


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## Dean

jeepie said:


> Correct, nothing but crickets from MVC. I was told by my MVC sales guy that he found out that MVC nights will NOT count towards status (I was asking about 100 night Ambassador status) nor would MFs count towards $20k Spend. This was a month ago, but nothing new since. Very disappointing to have MVC seem to just defer to MR and apparently not go to bat for owners. The outcome will definitely determine my commitment...and future purchases...of MVC interests. Cheers.


Maybe I'm confused.  Certainly we should all look at where these type of things end up and make decisions as to what works best for us but your post seems to think it's owed or you'd be upset with MVC, rather than MR, if it changed negatively.  We should buy timeshares, chose our hotels and use CC for the best choice for us, but to expect certain options or be overly upset if things change seems unreasonable.  These are essentially separate companies and we could see the entire program go away completely from a MVC standpoint.  If buying a timeshare doesn't work without these options, it shouldn't work with them, their peanuts.  Personally I wouldn't expect them to announce the exact nuances of how it'll work, I don't think they ever do for these type of issues unless their using some change as a sales or participation enticement.


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## bazzap

Dean said:


> Maybe I'm confused.  Certainly we should all look at where these type of things end up and make decisions as to what works best for us but your post seems to think it's owed or you'd be upset with MVC, rather than MR, if it changed negatively.  We should buy timeshares, chose our hotels and use CC for the best choice for us, but to expect certain options or be overly upset if things change seems unreasonable.  These are essentially separate companies and we could see the entire program go away completely from a MVC standpoint.  If buying a timeshare doesn't work without these options, it shouldn't work with them, their peanuts.  Personally I wouldn't expect them to announce the exact nuances of how it'll work, I don't think they ever do for these type of issues unless their using some change as a sales or participation enticement.


I agree that as MVC owners we can’t expect or depend on these options going forward, although they probably will continue in a similar form.
I wouldn’t describe them as peanuts though. For us, these benefits have been substantial over the years in both financial terms and in the perks they have given us.


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## Dean

bazzap said:


> I agree that as MVC owners we can’t expect or depend on these options going forward, although they probably will.
> I wouldn’t describe them as peanuts though. For us, these benefits have been substantial over the years in both financial terms and in the perks they have given us.


The point there was if MVC doesn't make sense without the benefit, it doesn't with it either.


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## bazzap

Dean said:


> The point there was if MVC doesn't make sense without the benefit, it doesn't with it either.


For sure, I agree with you there.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward

BigMac said:


> Good Point. I guess the issue is who owns the properties. Hopefully ILG and eventually Marriott. If Hyatt wants to exit their name so be it. Here is the list of properties. It looks like some of them are attached to a Hyatt hotel but not all. Maybe someone knows.
> 
> *Hyatt Residence Club*
> Hyatt Residence Club At Park Hyatt Beaver Creek Avon, Colorado Mountain
> Hyatt Residence Club Beaver Creek, Mountain Lodge Beaver Creek, Colorado Mountain
> Hyatt Residence Club Bonita Springs, Coconut Plantation Bonita Springs, Florida Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club Breckenridge, Main Street Station Breckenridge, Colorado Mountain
> Hyatt Residence Club Carmel, Highlands Inn Carmel, California Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club Dorado, Hacienda del Mar Dorado, Puerto Rico Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club Grand Aspen Aspen, Colorado Mountain
> Hyatt Residence Club Key West, Beach House Key West, Florida Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club Key West, Sunset Harbor Key West, Florida Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club Key West, Windward Pointe Key West, Florida Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club Lake Tahoe, High Sierra Lodge Incline Village, Nevada Mountain
> Hyatt Residence Club Lake Tahoe, Northstar Lodge Truckee, California Mountain
> Hyatt Residence Club Maui, Kāʻanapali Beach Lahaina, Hawaii Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club San Antonio, Wild Oak Ranch San Antonio, Texas Country
> Hyatt Residence Club Sarasota, Siesta Key Beach Siesta Key, Florida Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club Sedona, Piñon Pointe Sedona, Arizona Desert



Hyatt Residence Club San Antonio, Wild Oak Ranch San Antonio, Texas Country is a stand alone.


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## JIMinNC

dougp26364 said:


> I think, from an owners perspective, it’s VERY easy to make a case for MF and nights counting. It would be very easy to view this as contractually pre-paid nights/stays. For MVC it’s guarenteed income whether or not you actually stay in a MVC property



Maintenance fees go to each resort HOA, and do not represent income to MVC's bottom line. The only income MVC gets from maintenance fees is the management fee, which I think is 10% of the resort operating budget. So at most, you could argue that 10% of your maintenance fee should count toward the spend. But the fact that MVC is a separate company, and not a part of Marriott International even complicates that. Marriott International gets $0 from your maintenance fee, so for it to count toward spend, MVC would have to pay Marriott International for that perk for MVC owners. Not sure 10% would be worth it.


----------



## tschwa2

JIMinNC said:


> Maintenance fees go to each resort HOA, and do not represent income to MVC's bottom line. The only income MVC gets from maintenance fees is the management fee, which I think is 10% of the resort operating budget. So at most, you could argue that 10% of your maintenance fee should count toward the spend. But the fact that MVC is a separate company, and not a part of Marriott International even complicates that. Marriott International gets $0 from your maintenance fee, so for it to count toward spend, MVC would have to pay Marriott International for that perk for MVC owners. Not sure 10% would be worth it.


I think MVC does pay MI for the use of the Marriott name and for program perks like status for chairman's club and all of the others.  I don't know exactly where they build that in but its in there somewhere.  

In addition to the 10% management fee there are all kinds of small ways that Marriott - not sure if MVC or MI or both benefit from the management and control of the boards.  Contracts for goods and services are steered toward Marriott owned or related products like Marriott mattresses, the marketplace, food services, spa, etc.   The staff at least front desk, are they MVC employees or MI employees? The little name badges make me think MI.  I doubt most MVC resorts take bids for services like hk and laundry all in the name of keeping up Marriott standards.


----------



## JIMinNC

tschwa2 said:


> I think MVC does pay MI for the use of the Marriott name and for program perks like status for chairman's club and all of the others.  I don't know exactly where they build that in but its in there somewhere.
> 
> In addition to the 10% management fee there are all kinds of small ways that Marriott - not sure if MVC or MI or both benefit from the management and control of the boards.  Contracts for goods and services are steered toward Marriott owned or related products like Marriott mattresses, the marketplace, food services, spa, etc.   The staff at least front desk, are they MVC employees or MI employees? The little name badges make me think MI.  I doubt most MVC resorts take bids for services like hk and laundry all in the name of keeping up Marriott standards.



Yes, of course MVC pays MI for the perks we get, but if they were to add counting MF in the spend, they would have to increase that payment. Why would they do that since 90% of the MF goes to the resort HOA for resort expenses? The payment for the marketing licenses and these perks shows up on the income statement for Marriott Vacations Worldwide, not the individual resorts. The resorts pay their share of that fee through the 10% management fee paid to MVW.

And yes, MVW does earn some $$ to the bottom line from food and beverage and other resort spend, but that is direct revenue that I think may count toward resort spend. The point being discussed is MF, though, and that clearly doesn't count.

MVC has a license to use the MI brands, so the name tags can say Marriott/Marriott Vacation Club, or whatever. I'm pretty sure the resort employees are employed by MVW or the resorts themselves, at least that is where their salaries come from. I think in the hospitality business the employees are typically employed by the management company, so for hotels managed by Marriott International, the hotel employees work for MI. For the Marriott timeshares, Marriott Vacations Worldwide is the management company, so they would either be employed by MVW with the resort HOA paying for their salaries/benefits, or perhaps they are direct employees of the resort. Not sure about that, but I'm pretty sure they are not employed by MI. All MI has is a marketing and branding license agreement with MVW.


----------



## Sapper

BigMac said:


> J*IMinNC said -I wonder what those "other actions" are that Hyatt has the right to take? The way that is worded, it seems they could at least opt to terminate their license agreement, meaning VAC would have to take the Hyatt name off of those properties and wouldn't be able to market to Hyatt guests/loyalty members. It would be simple enough to rebrand them as Marriott Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club, but that would seem to be significantly complicated by Hyatt timeshare locations that are co-located with Hyatt hotels.*
> 
> *How many of the Hyatt timeshares share facilities/grounds with a Hyatt hotel?*
> 
> Good Point. I guess the issue is who owns the properties. Hopefully ILG and eventually Marriott. If Hyatt wants to exit their name so be it. Here is the list of properties. It looks like some of them are attached to a Hyatt hotel but not all. Maybe someone knows.
> 
> *Hyatt Residence Club*
> Hyatt Residence Club At Park Hyatt Beaver Creek Avon, Colorado Mountain
> Hyatt Residence Club Beaver Creek, Mountain Lodge Beaver Creek, Colorado Mountain
> Hyatt Residence Club Bonita Springs, Coconut Plantation Bonita Springs, Florida Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club Breckenridge, Main Street Station Breckenridge, Colorado Mountain
> Hyatt Residence Club Carmel, Highlands Inn Carmel, California Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club Dorado, Hacienda del Mar Dorado, Puerto Rico Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club Grand Aspen Aspen, Colorado Mountain
> Hyatt Residence Club Key West, Beach House Key West, Florida Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club Key West, Sunset Harbor Key West, Florida Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club Key West, Windward Pointe Key West, Florida Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club Lake Tahoe, High Sierra Lodge Incline Village, Nevada Mountain
> Hyatt Residence Club Lake Tahoe, Northstar Lodge Truckee, California Mountain
> Hyatt Residence Club Maui, Kāʻanapali Beach Lahaina, Hawaii Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club San Antonio, Wild Oak Ranch San Antonio, Texas Country
> Hyatt Residence Club Sarasota, Siesta Key Beach Siesta Key, Florida Beach
> Hyatt Residence Club Sedona, Piñon Pointe Sedona, Arizona Desert



The Park Hyatt in Beaver Creek is a commingled facility. The Mountain Lodge (basically across the street) is seperate.  The Park Hyatt Hotel is owned by an independent group that has some other hotels, Marriott could approach them to buy them out or make a deal to rebrand.  Grand Hyatt Aspen is is it's own facility which Hyatt rents rooms out as if it were a hotel. Highlands Inn in Carmel is part hotel, part timeshare, and must remain so per some agreement with the California Coastal Commission. ILG became the Hyatt concession holder for the hotel portion when they bought HRC from Hyatt.  I would imagine Marriott would have no problem changing names there (besides agnst among the owners).  Tahoe Northstar has some kind of deal with Welk. Some of the properties have facility sharing agreements, and while i can see Marriott cancelling them, it will irritate the owners.  The ownership for some properties is RTU and others is deed. There is also a disaster called the Hyatt Points Program that was semi-rolled out about a year ago. Hyatt management basically took all of the unsold units and dumped them into a trust, then sold points in the trust.  Anyway, it's one more thing Marriott will have to deal with.


----------



## BigMac

During the MVC earnings call this morning they stated that basically all approvals have been obtained for the merger with the shareholder votes scheduled for August 28th. Because of their progress, they are scheduling the closing date for the transaction for August 31st - one month earlier than previously announced.


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## JIMinNC

Found the IJG/MVW merger prospectus on the SEC website and skimmed it. Fascinating read, especially the chronology of the merger discussions between Steve Weisz and Craig Nash which actually date back to May 2016 just before the ILG acquisition of Vistana closed.

The SEC site also had several of the regulatory filings, one of which included the internal communications about the executive management changes in the combined company and discussion of when other employees would learn their place in the new organization during the integration process. That included a timeline of major events, that I thought TUGgers might find interesting and could offer insight into the pace of change we might expect. Here is that section:

*What are the next steps in the design of the future organization? When will I know about my job?*
_
• MVW’s new leadership team will build out the rest of the organization using a thoughtful and consistent process. 
• The first step will be to build out the senior leadership team, which we expect to complete and communicate by end of November.
• After that, our goal is to communicate additional details about the organization and have decisions around the future design of the organization and related roles and responsibilities by the end of the first quarter of 2019.
• As with all integrations, plans will continue to evolve in the coming year, as we continue to refine our strategic direction. 
• We will provide updates on the process as a_dditional decisions are made.

----
Having been involved in many corporate mergers over my career, I would be surprised if there are any substantive changes to ILG's operations prior to the new organization being put into place, and it looks like that may take until the end of first quarter 2019. It may be difficult to even _start _serious work on any significant changes until after the new organization is in place_. _That may not prevent some minor incremental change/integration, but I don't think anyone should be getting ready to use their Destination Points for Vistana properties any time soon. Just my opinion.


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## JanT

I'm curious as to what everyone thinks will happen to Hyatt timeshares in this merger, i.e., will they have a lot of value within the system since there really are so few of them.  We currently own a Sunset Harbor (Key West) platinum week and I've been toying with the idea of selling it in order to pick up one or two resale Marriott weeks.  But, my gut tells me to hang onto the Hyatt week because it could become valuable once the merger is complete and shakes out a bit.  Thoughts?


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## JIMinNC

JanT said:


> I'm curious as to what everyone thinks will happen to Hyatt timeshares in this merger, i.e., will they have a lot of value within the system since there really are so few of them.  We currently own a Sunset Harbor (Key West) platinum week and I've been toying with the idea of selling it in order to pick up one or two resale Marriott weeks.  But, my gut tells me to hang onto the Hyatt week because it could become valuable once the merger is complete and shakes out a bit.  Thoughts?



Don't think anyone knows. Marriott may not even know for sure. Based on things written in the merger prospectus, this "change of control" of ILG gives Hyatt Hotels the right to terminate certain agreements with ILG pertaining to the timeshares. Marriott Vacations Worldwide has not disclosed what discussions have been held with Hyatt so far, and no one knows how Hyatt Hotels feels about a Marriott-affilliated company owning marketing rights to the Hyatt-branded timeshares. Some have speculated that the Hyatt properties will eventually be sold to another entity since they don't have the synergy with the other Marriott-owned brands and are affiliated with another hotel company. But that is just speculation.


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## bazzap

JIMinNC said:


> Don't think anyone knows. Marriott may not even know for sure. Based on things written in the merger prospectus, this "change of control" of ILG gives Hyatt Hotels the right to terminate certain agreements with ILG pertaining to the timeshares. Marriott Vacations Worldwide has not disclosed what discussions have been held with Hyatt so far, and no one knows how Hyatt Hotels feels about a Marriott-affilliated company owning marketing rights to the Hyatt-branded timeshares. Some have speculated that the Hyatt properties will eventually be sold to another entity since they don't have the synergy with the other Marriott-owned brands and are affiliated with another hotel company. But that is just speculation.


Speculation with a fair degree of logic attached though. I agree.


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## Sapper

JIMinNC said:


> Don't think anyone knows. Marriott may not even know for sure. Based on things written in the merger prospectus, this "change of control" of ILG gives Hyatt Hotels the right to terminate certain agreements with ILG pertaining to the timeshares. Marriott Vacations Worldwide has not disclosed what discussions have been held with Hyatt so far, and no one knows how Hyatt Hotels feels about a Marriott-affilliated company owning marketing rights to the Hyatt-branded timeshares. Some have speculated that the Hyatt properties will eventually be sold to another entity since they don't have the synergy with the other Marriott-owned brands and are affiliated with another hotel company. But that is just speculation.



Just a guess... either:
A)  This is pure profit for Hyatt.  As long as Marriott agrees to not diminish the Hyatt brand in any way, I can see them going along with a Marriott deal.
B)  Hyatt does not go along with the deal, and Marriott rebrands all of the Hyatt properties into some specific sub-brand (ie, Marriott H Collection).
C)  Hyatt does not go along with the deal, and pushes (legal threat) for the properties to not be under Marriott control.  Marriott spins them off back into an independent company with an IPO to fund it.  Marriott would control a large percentage (49%), and would mandate specific ties to use II for trading.  This would both keep the Hyatt properties under Marriott's thumb and continue to allow trading from all other Marriott owned properties (so they could use trading into them for marketing purposes).  

I doubt that Marriott will sell the Hyatt properties to any competing companies.


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## GregT

All,

I reached out to my sales executive and asked if there was any activity going on regarding integrating the Marriott and Starwood systems.  He indicated there was no big news and that management was targeting a late Q1 2019 announcement of whatever the next phase of integration is going to be.   Nothing actionable here, but will be curious to see if this holds.

Best,

Greg


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