# Open Season Rates no longer a good deal!!



## Tamaradarann

I tried to book an open season reservation for January 1st in a Platinum Season Resort.  The rate for a 1 BR+ was $270 for a week night, and $290 for a weekend night.  That is ridiculous.  I called and wrote to HGVC to complain and tell them that they destroyed a very valuable benefit for HGVC membership.  I hope they change their thought on this.


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## Jason245

Tamaradarann said:


> I tried to book an open season reservation for January 1st in a Platinum Season Resort.  The rate for a 1 BR+ was $270 for a week night, and $290 for a weekend night.  That is ridiculous.  I called and wrote to HGVC to complain and tell them that they destroyed a very valuable benefit for HGVC membership.  I hope they change their thought on this.



Just to clarify, you are getting a 1 BR plus or 1 BR penthouse? for plat season at the cost of $1930 for a week?

Have you looked to see how much the room costs if you were to book it as a non HGVC member?

Have you looked at the cost of renting it from a owner?

How many points would it take to stay in that unit for the time you are planning? if you take your fees and divide by total points and multiply by points needed, what would it cost you if you were to book a points stay?


We all hate high prices, but if it costs you $400 a night to book that unit if you wern't a HGVC member, then it might be a good price. If it costs $200 a night to book the unit elsewhere, then it isn't a good price, and book through alternative means.


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## Tamaradarann

*Open Season was a Good Deal now it is Expensive*



Jason245 said:


> Just to clarify, you are getting a 1 BR plus or 1 BR penthouse? for plat season at the cost of $1930 for a week?
> 
> All I need is two nights January 1st and 2nd.  The cost on open season for the 1 BR Plus is $560 today.  Yesterday it was $305 which was a good deal.
> 
> Have you looked to see how much the room costs if you were to book it as a non HGVC member?  I can book the Hilton Hawaiian Village usually for about $250 a night, but other hotels can be booked for about $200/night.  I already have a hotel room booked at the Hilton Hawaiian Village using Hilton Honors Points so my quest was to pay around $300 and save the points.  At $560 it is expensive and no bargain.
> 
> Have you looked at the cost of renting it from a owner?  I don't think anyone would have a spare January 1st and 2nd sitting around at the Hilton Hawaiian Village that they would rent me for $300.
> 
> How many points would it take to stay in that unit for the time you are planning? if you take your fees and divide by total points and multiply by points needed, what would it cost you if you were to book a points stay?  Can't use points for two nights stays, also the points for these 1 BR Plus units would far exceed what I would be interested in paying.
> 
> We all hate high prices, but if it costs you $400 a night to book that unit if you wern't a HGVC member, then it might be a good price. If it costs $200 a night to book the unit elsewhere, then it isn't a good price, and book through alternative means.


  All I can do to answer this is repeat: The cost on open season for the 1 BR Plus is $560 today.  Yesterday it was $305 which was a good deal.


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## SmithOp

I agree, HGVC killed open season for me by raising prices.  I've been spoiled by TUG LMR rates and Interval cash getaways. 


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## Jason245

Tamaradarann said:


> All I can do to answer this is repeat: The cost on open season for the 1 BR Plus is $560 today.  Yesterday it was $305 which was a good deal.



I guess you are getting a preview of the new open season rates... which are going up almost 100% given what you are saying.  I guess it is another "Enhancement" to the program.


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## PigsDad

Tamaradarann said:


> All I can do to answer this is repeat: The cost on open season for the 1 BR Plus is $560 today.  Yesterday it was $305 which was a good deal.



And three years ago the rate was $100 for weekdays, $120 for weekends.  I wouldn't mind some modest price increases, but this is ridiculous.  Yet another benefit to HGVC owners destroyed.

Kurt


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## sluggohill

I think it's a software glitch from the new Revolution "enhancements".

Looking at Jan 1 for a 2 night stay, Bay Club is listed at $780 for a 1 BR and $315 for a 2 BR.  That doesn't make sense at all.  HGVC on Paradise shows that you can only pay points for a 1BR - there is no cash option.

I called HGVC and asked about rates and the agent said club rates are increasing nominally - he said $10.  He gave quotes that were different than what Revolution is showing.

Not sure what's going on, but I don't think they've gotten the software upgrades on Revolution out of beta stage.


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## Tamaradarann

*Do we think alike or what?*



PigsDad said:


> And three years ago the rate was $100 for weekdays, $120 for weekends.  I wouldn't mind some modest price increases, but this is ridiculous.  Yet another benefit to HGVC owners destroyed.
> 
> When I called and wrote to HGVC today I told them exactly what you just said.  A $10 or $20 increase or a !0% increase could be accepted at the highly desired resorts durning the higher demand periods which is what they said were the only ones to be increased.  But an increase of almost 100% is ridiculous.


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## Tamaradarann

sluggohill said:


> I think it's a software glitch from the new Revolution "enhancements".
> 
> Looking at Jan 1 for a 2 night stay, Bay Club is listed at $780 for a 1 BR and $315 for a 2 BR.  That doesn't make sense at all.  HGVC on Paradise shows that you can only pay points for a 1BR - there is no cash option.
> 
> I called HGVC and asked about rates and the agent said club rates are increasing nominally - he said $10.  He gave quotes that were different than what Revolution is showing.
> 
> Not sure what's going on, but I don't think they've gotten the software upgrades on Revolution out of beta stage.



I also called and they gave me the rates that I quoted over the phone as well as on the web site.  I use the Classic System so that the revolution system shouldn't be the reason for the problem.  Later in the day I pointed out to them in an e-mail that the Bay Club 1 BR was $780, they said that was odd and were going to look into it and get back to me.


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## SmithOp

That Bay Club must be a coding error on the type, even a Platinum 1Br Penthouse doesnt add up to $780 for 2 nights. Its priced at 3 Br Penthouse rate.






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## jestme

YIKES!!!   I looked at Classic, and this year, a 1BR+ is 387.46 for 2 nights at the Kalia. (Friday and Sat) A 1BR+ at Hokulani for 2 nights in January comes up as $660.96, also for a Friday and Sat!!!! Totally unacceptable increase. This had better be a pricing problem in the system, because if those are the true new rates, then I won't be staying anywhere near HGVC, or any Hilton brand hotel, ever again, including my timeshare. I will rent it out instead.  
Strange though, HGVC on I-Drive a 1BR (not plus) comes up as $292.50 for the same two nights in January???? 
When were they going to announce these new rates? Did they think people wouldn't notice the difference? They did a massive, unjustified increase last year as well!


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## Tamaradarann

*These are 2014 rates, new chart not out yet*



SmithOp said:


> That Bay Club must be a coding error on the type, even a Platinum 1Br Penthouse doesnt add up to $780 for 2 nights. Its priced at 3 Br Penthouse rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The rates in the chart that you posted are 2014 rates.  2015 chart not out yet but they will blow this chart away with higher rates per my conversation with Hilton Management.


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## jestme

I just sent an email requesting the new rate schedule, and an explanation of why any increase could be justified after last years increase debacle. I doubt that will get me far, but as we are already booking 2015, it doesn't seem to be too much to ask what the new rates are. I doubt Hilton buys anything in their purchasing system without the pricing options being available to them. 
I hated the feeling I got last year when I felt we got shafted by an unannounced, massive price increase. I'm getting the same feeling this year already. It certainly isn't a feeling that induces me to buy another timeshare from them.


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## Jason245

jestme said:


> I just sent an email requesting the new rate schedule, and an explanation of why any increase could be justified after last years increase debacle. I doubt that will get me far, but as we are already booking 2015, it doesn't seem to be too much to ask what the new rates are. I doubt Hilton buys anything in their purchasing system without the pricing options being available to them.
> I hated the feeling I got last year when I felt we got shafted by an unannounced, massive price increase. I'm getting the same feeling this year already. It certainly isn't a feeling that induces me to buy another timeshare from them.



I guess you need to ask two questions:

1. Where does the money go from these open season rates?  You should probably send that question to your HOA instead of to HGVC.  Specifically, you should ask "Where do the open season rental rates and cash rental revenues go? what is that money spent on? how much is generated?"

While you do not have a full say into HGVC rates club wide, you have full voting rights for your association which generally includes the right to ask questions about financial records (in the state of florida, you can actually get a lot of information from associations).  If you don't like the answers, you can push it further and even run for the board of your HOA.  

2. Is the rate you are being charged less than the rate you would have to pay if you were to stay at a hotel or rent that same unit from hilton without being a HGVC member?

If the increased cash rental rates are resulting in your MF not increasing or not increasing as much as they could increase without that increase in cash rental rates, you might be looking at this penny wise by being pound foolish.


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## jestme

Jason245 said:


> I guess you need to ask two questions:
> 
> 1. Where does the money go from these open season rates?  You should probably send that question to your HOA instead of to HGVC.  Specifically, you should ask "Where do the open season rental rates and cash rental revenues go? what is that money spent on? how much is generated?"
> 
> While you do not have a full say into HGVC rates club wide, you have full voting rights for your association which generally includes the right to ask questions about financial records (in the state of florida, you can actually get a lot of information from associations).  If you don't like the answers, you can push it further and even run for the board of your HOA.
> 
> 2. Is the rate you are being charged less than the rate you would have to pay if you were to stay at a hotel or rent that same unit from hilton without being a HGVC member?
> 
> If the increased cash rental rates are resulting in your MF not increasing or not increasing as much as they could increase without that increase in cash rental rates, you might be looking at this penny wise by being pound foolish.


The rates are the same for all resorts in the program, worldwide, by room size and season. The HOA has no input to it at all. 
I asked that revenue sharing question last year. The response was that all revenue went to HGVC, not the resort booked. So, even though the local HOA will have the cost of cleaning the rooms and other overhead costs (check in, garbage, etc.), the resort gets nothing from this revenue. In fact, in places where there is a hotel and timeshare sharing the facility, like the HHV, none of the revenue from on site restaurants, bars, or parking is shared either. All the overhead costs for the resort are though.
As far as running for the board, Hilton are no idiots. They will always own enough owners percentage of the resort so they can maintain a majority on the board. I believe in Florida (the reigning law in HGVCland) the sold percentage is 80 or 85% before they have to provide the option to release control by allowing more owners on the board than developers. They can rent out the room weeks they keep through the hotel side of the business, so it's win, win for them.


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## PigsDad

Check out the HGVC website -- they literally just changed the Open Season rate sheet.  I was there earlier today and it was still showing the 2014 rates.

Here are the 2015 rates:





Note the price range now.  There is no explanation on how the ranges will be used, but it seems that HGVC can simply just pick a rate within that range, depending on how they feel.

Like I said before -- Open Season is no longer a benefit for HGVC owners. 

Kurt


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## Jason245

jestme said:


> The rates are the same for all resorts in the program, worldwide, by room size and season. The HOA has no input to it at all.
> I asked that revenue sharing question last year. The response was that all revenue went to HGVC, not the resort booked. So, even though the local HOA will have the cost of cleaning the rooms and other overhead costs (check in, garbage, etc.), the resort gets nothing from this revenue. In fact, in places where there is a hotel and timeshare sharing the facility, like the HHV, none of the revenue from on site restaurants, bars, or parking is shared either. All the overhead costs for the resort are though.
> As far as running for the board, Hilton are no idiots. They will always own enough owners percentage of the resort so they can maintain a majority on the board. I believe in Florida (the reigning law in HGVCland) the sold percentage is 80 or 85% before they have to provide the option to release control by allowing more owners on the board than developers. They can rent out the room weeks they keep through the hotel side of the business, so it's win, win for them.



Actually, if they are renting out their own units (for open season and hotel side of things), then they are probably using the revenues to offset their required portion of MAINT fees. 

My next question to them would be, is the developer current on their MFs?


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## Jason245

PigsDad said:


> Check out the HGVC website -- they literally just changed the Open Season rate sheet.  I was there earlier today and it was still showing the 2014 rates.
> 
> Here are the 2015 rates:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note the price range now.  There is no explanation on how the ranges will be used, but it seems that HGVC can simply just pick a rate within that range, depending on how they feel.
> 
> Like I said before -- Open Season is no longer a benefit for HGVC owners.
> 
> Kurt





It is still a benefit, just not a benefit worth using.  That being said, it is probably a supply/demand thing. If people stop paying then they will lower rates.


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## holdaer

*Open Season Ranges to support Affiliate Resorts?*

Maybe the new Open Season ranges were designed to help accommodate differences b/w affiliate resorts or b/w tiered HGVC resorts?

For example, have you seen the seasonal breakdown for the Club Intrawest resorts?  Talk about confusing!

Also, maybe HGVC is setting the stage to be more flexible with HGVC and other affiliate resorts.  1 BR at Grand Waikikian should be different than a 1 BR at Kalia.

I'm not screaming conspiracy just yet.  Just need to see what happens or what new affiliates come to the HGVC portfolio in 2015/2016 before giving up on Open Season.


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## Tamaradarann

*Jason, so you finally agree with my initial title!*



Jason245 said:


> It is still a benefit, just not a benefit worth using.  That being said, it is probably a supply/demand thing. If people stop paying then they will lower rates.
> 
> I started this thread with "Open Season no longer a good deal"
> 
> We as owners who pay our maintenance every year should get this benefit as a good deal, not the same rates as the public that doesn't own anything Hilton.
> 
> The outsiders who have big money may pay these rates.  But they don't own.


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## Tamaradarann

*Justme, take a look at the chart.*



jestme said:


> The rates are the same for all resorts in the program, worldwide, by room size and season. The HOA has no input to it at all.
> I asked that revenue sharing question last year. The response was that all revenue went to HGVC, not the resort booked. So, even though the local HOA will have the cost of cleaning the rooms and other overhead costs (check in, garbage, etc.), the resort gets nothing from this revenue. In fact, in places where there is a hotel and timeshare sharing the facility, like the HHV, none of the revenue from on site restaurants, bars, or parking is shared either. All the overhead costs for the resort are though.
> As far as running for the board, Hilton are no idiots. They will always own enough owners percentage of the resort so they can maintain a majority on the board. I believe in Florida (the reigning law in HGVCland) the sold percentage is 80 or 85% before they have to provide the option to release control by allowing more owners on the board than developers. They can rent out the room weeks they keep through the hotel side of the business, so it's win, win for them.



Take a look at the chart not same for every resort.  It is ranges.


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## Tamaradarann

*I just sent this to Hilton*

We, HGVC members, are waiting to hear what top Management says about our reaction to the exorbitant rate increases..  Owners don't want to be treated as everyone.  We have bought into the system and expect a big discount off the rates that outsiders pay.  Make outsiders own, as we do,  or pay much more than us, not the same or just a little more.  That is what we want.  Nothing less will be acceptable to reward our good feelings and our dollars to buy HGVC property.  We feel like family when we are at a Hilton, we want to feel like family when we book an open season reservation, not like the general public.

I just sent this to Barbara Rinks, Director of Member Services at HGVC Central Office.  BRinks@HGVC.com

Send your own comments.  Be respectful, indicate your displeasure, and expect to be treated as owners, members, and faithful Hilton people that expect to be rewarded for our dollars.


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## jestme

Tamaradarann said:


> Take a look at the chart not same for every resort.  It is ranges.



True, but we don't know yet what the ranges are for. It may not be resort, just special seasons (Daytona 500 weekend, New Year in Vegas, etc.).
I will be sending a note to her as well. I bought specifically because of Open Season, and the concept that as "owners", we were to be appreciated by getting very good preferred rates on OWNER OWNED time that they weren't using for that period. Apparently, I, along with a lot of others were wrong. Hilton is certainly not the professional organization I thought they were when I bought.


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## Blues

jestme said:


> True, but we don't know yet what the ranges are for. It may not be resort, just special seasons (Daytona 500 weekend, New Year in Vegas, etc.).
> I will be sending a note to her as well. I bought specifically because of Open Season, and the concept that as "owners", we were to be appreciated by getting very good preferred rates on OWNER OWNED time that they weren't using for that period. Apparently, I, along with a lot of others were wrong. Hilton is certainly not the professional organization I thought they were when I bought.



Agree with all the above.  This scares me, as I'm just starting to plan a large family reunion next summer, and we'll need Open Season in addition to Club Season rooms.  But if the rates double, it could price out some of the family.  I'm guessing, as jestme says, that the high rates are for special occasions.  For Vegas in the summer, I really hope we'll see the bottom of that range.

-Bob


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## brial05

I travel every week ... staying in all brands of hotels as our Travel Agency allows me no choice 

On this new chart, a one bedroom during PLATINUM Season tops out at $ 145 for Friday and Saturday .... $ 120 all other days ..... that is a VERY GOOD DEAL, period.

$ 145 will NEVER buy the anything close to the level of any Orlando offering for example.

And again that is a Platinum Season rate!


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## jestme

brial05 said:


> I travel every week ... staying in all brands of hotels as our Travel Agency allows me no choice
> 
> On this new chart, a one bedroom during PLATINUM Season tops out at $ 145 for Friday and Saturday .... $ 120 all other days ..... that is a VERY GOOD DEAL, period.
> 
> $ 145 will NEVER buy the anything close to the level of any Orlando offering for example.
> 
> And again that is a Platinum Season rate!



100% wrong! According to the new schedule the top rate for 1BR during  platinum season tops out at $290 a night. That is for the worst 1BR they have. Two years ago, the BEST 1BR+ topped out at $120 / night.
$290 / night? In Orlando? Get real,  You must be an "HGVC" plant.


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## TheCryptkeeper

What a shame.  Perhaps less people are buying from Hilton directly and it  needs the extra money to exercise its ROFR?


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## Tamaradarann

*Those are the 2014 rates*



brial05 said:


> I travel every week ... staying in all brands of hotels as our Travel Agency allows me no choice
> 
> On this new chart, a one bedroom during PLATINUM Season tops out at $ 145 for Friday and Saturday .... $ 120 all other days ..... that is a VERY GOOD DEAL, period.
> 
> $ 145 will NEVER buy the anything close to the level of any Orlando offering for example.
> 
> And again that is a Platinum Season rate!



The $120 and $145 one bedroom rates that you quote are 2014 rates.  The 2015 rates start at that for Platinum and can range much higher


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## Tamaradarann

*Rates will be based on Demand versus Availability*



Blues said:


> Agree with all the above.  This scares me, as I'm just starting to plan a large family reunion next summer, and we'll need Open Season in addition to Club Season rooms.  But if the rates double, it could price out some of the family.  I'm guessing, as jestme says, that the high rates are for special occasions.  For Vegas in the summer, I really hope we'll see the bottom of that range.
> 
> -Bob
> 
> That rates will be based on demand versus availability.  Las Vegas has lots of demand.  It is extremely hot in the summer so that I don't think that the demand will be so great that it outdo the availability.


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## Tamaradarann

*I corrected my statement about Las Vagas, availability is high*



Tamaradarann said:


> Blues said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agree with all the above.  This scares me, as I'm just starting to plan a large family reunion next summer, and we'll need Open Season in addition to Club Season rooms.  But if the rates double, it could price out some of the family.  I'm guessing, as jestme says, that the high rates are for special occasions.  For Vegas in the summer, I really hope we'll see the bottom of that range.
> 
> -Bob
> 
> That rates will be based on demand versus availability.  Las Vegas has lots of availability  It is extremely hot in the summer so that I don't think that the demand will be so great that it outdo the availability.
Click to expand...


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## brial05

jestme said:


> 100% wrong! According to the new schedule the top rate for 1BR during  platinum season tops out at $290 a night. That is for the worst 1BR they have. Two years ago, the BEST 1BR+ topped out at $120 / night.
> $290 / night? In Orlando? Get real,  You must be an "HGVC" plant.



jestme,

I'm not the one in need of 'getting real'. 
You are talking about a 1 Bedroom Penthouse ..... again a pure 1 Bedroom tops out $145 .... its not a 'Penthouse' so I guess I need to get real and live as large as you.

I just stayed in a one bedroom Parc Soleil, # 11012 to be exact ..... to pay $ 145 a night for that room is a GREAT DEAL.

Is the price as good as you are noting from the past, no it is not.

Call Hilton Bonnet Creek, call the Hilton Orlando, call the Gaylord Palm, you will not get a room for $ 145 ..... and the room you get will be twice as small.

Yes, I'm a plant, Hilton pays me money to post in a manner which is going to convince you that you are the best person in the world, that Hilton loves you and that no one but Hilton knows best how you should invest your money.


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## Great3

*Wow, just wow!!!*

You guys aren't kidding, looked like the rates pretty much doubled for 2015.  I didn't realize what you guys were talking about at first, until I finally took a look at classic and revolution system and saw the new rates chart, and tried a few booking (which of course I didn't complete) to see what the costs were.

I was considering open season for part of 2015, but if the high end of the price range holds true, than I for sure won't be booking any open season, and if nobody does either, than HGVC/Hilton will be left with a bunch of unused rooms/nights.  They have effectively created zero demand, and will be left with an over abundant of supply, in my humble opinion.

Sadly, like others, I purchased into HGVC (just barely got my account setup  about 2 weeks ago) with the hope/belief that I can get reasonable open season rates.  Sigh!!!!! So Sad


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## letsgosteelers

Looks to me this is a result of the recent hilton IPO.

And we thought the Hilton honors point devaluation was bad...not to mention the whole category level expansion and reclassification.

 it was just the beginning...sigh.


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## chriskre

brial05 said:


> jestme,
> 
> I'm not the one in need of 'getting real'.
> You are talking about a 1 Bedroom Penthouse ..... again a pure 1 Bedroom tops out $145 .... its not a 'Penthouse' so I guess I need to get real and live as large as you.
> 
> I just stayed in a one bedroom Parc Soleil, # 11012 to be exact ..... to pay $ 145 a night for that room is a GREAT DEAL.
> 
> Is the price as good as you are noting from the past, no it is not.
> 
> Call Hilton Bonnet Creek, call the Hilton Orlando, call the Gaylord Palm, you will not get a room for $ 145 ..... and the room you get will be twice as small.
> 
> Yes, I'm a plant, Hilton pays me money to post in a manner which is going to convince you that you are the best person in the world, that Hilton loves you and that no one but Hilton knows best how you should invest your money.



Just an FYI, most of us here are not used to paying so much to stay in Orlando in top digs.  I can get most of the Marriotts in Orlando for a full week for the price of 2 or 3 nights in HGVC thru II, so I guess I'll be staying in more Marriotts going forward than in HGVC.  

I am one who purchased HGVC to get access to the Open Season rates too.  Now I feel it's not worth it for Orlando any longer.  HGVC has just devalued it's self in my eyes to just another run of the mill timeshare.   And you can get a room at Bonnet Creek for $100 a night or less on ebay or from one of our mega renters here and it has a superior location.  I like Parc Soleil but not enough to pay those expensive rates.  For that I'll stay on site at Disney.


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## holdaer

*R-e-l-a-x*

Change is difficult for many people and looks like the new 2015 open season tiered pricing is freaking some people out.

CHILL.  Take a closer look and see what is really going on.

For example, look at Las Vegas open season 1BR 12/11 - 12/15

Paradise = 1,680pts/ $360

Boulevard = 2,380 / $400

Flamingo = 1,680/ $360

Here is Orlando with the same parameters:

Parc Soleil = 2,380 / $400

Tuscany Village = 2,380 / $380

Seaworld = 1,680 / $360


Does anyone recognize tiered pricing and now a tiered point structure?  Yes, big bad corporate american profit mongers are recognizing that not all facilities are the same.  Some are actually nicer and have more amenities and would call for a higher rate.

For the fear mongers out there, stay away from open season and these changes so there will be more availability for those who are not freaked by a little change.  Oh and one more thing, because my opinion may not match up with some then I guess I'm a Hilton plant as well....NOT.


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## jestme

brial05 said:


> jestme,
> 
> I'm not the one in need of 'getting real'.
> You are talking about a 1 Bedroom Penthouse ..... again a pure 1 Bedroom tops out $145 .... its not a 'Penthouse' so I guess I need to get real and live as large as you.
> 
> I just stayed in a one bedroom Parc Soleil, # 11012 to be exact ..... to pay $ 145 a night for that room is a GREAT DEAL.
> 
> Is the price as good as you are noting from the past, no it is not.
> 
> Call Hilton Bonnet Creek, call the Hilton Orlando, call the Gaylord Palm, you will not get a room for $ 145 ..... and the room you get will be twice as small.
> 
> Yes, I'm a plant, Hilton pays me money to post in a manner which is going to convince you that you are the best person in the world, that Hilton loves you and that no one but Hilton knows best how you should invest your money.


Yes, it WAS a great deal. You now need to look at what that same room will cost you in platinum season in 2015. With the new pricing table, that 1BR weekend rate starts at $145 and tops off at $290. The 1BR penthouse you refer to starts at $290 and tops off at $580. I could have had that same 1BR, $145 price in Hawaii this month, next month, in 2015 for a 1BR (not even a plus), it will be $280 / night. (I checked). Not quite double, and in 2013 I could have had that same room for $100. I also checked a 1BR+, in 2015, it will be $330 a night there!


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## Jason245

jestme said:


> Yes, it WAS a great deal. You now need to look at what that same room will cost you in platinum season in 2015. With the new pricing table, that 1BR weekend rate starts at $145 and tops off at $290. The 1BR penthouse you refer to starts at $290 and tops off at $580. I could have had that same 1BR, $145 price in Hawaii this month, next month, in 2015 for a 1BR (not even a plus), it will be $280 / night. (I checked). Not quite double, and in 2013 I could have had that same room for $100. I also checked a 1BR+, in 2015, it will be $330 a night there!



Well, there are a few  ways to look at this.

1. Supply and Demand. If they can raise the prices to this and still keep occupancy at above 90%, then HGVC customers are fine with it. Alternativly, if occupancy drops to below 70%, then customers are not fine with it. 

2. They have decided to stop subsidizing low point owners usage of HGVC rooms. You look at it as a price increase, but the reality is that HGVC was (possibly, you would have to do the math), renting out the rooms for less than the MF they were paying on them.  These prices seem like they would put HGVC in line with being able to cover Maint Fees on these rooms. At the same time, Low point owners would be put in the position of having to buy more points if the MFs start being less than the rental cost on open season. 

There is a sweet spot where rental rate is more than the MF, but less than the cost to rent the room as an outsider and/or getting a hotel room. HGVC is trying to find that spot, and given how deeply these rooms were subsidized in the past, we will probably see more price increases in the near future.


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## littlestar

I am glad I didn't pull the trigger on a Hilton points package last year. When I read about HGVC going public it made me nervous. I figured I'd be better off using my AAA card discount and just rent an occasional night or two in Orlando at one of the Hilton properties.


----------



## PigsDad

holdaer said:


> Change is difficult for many people and looks like the new 2015 open season tiered pricing is freaking some people out.
> 
> CHILL.  Take a closer look and see what is really going on.
> 
> For example, look at Las Vegas open season 1BR 12/11 - 12/15
> 
> Paradise = 1,680pts/ $360
> 
> Boulevard = 2,380 / $400
> 
> Flamingo = 1,680/ $360
> 
> Here is Orlando with the same parameters:
> 
> Parc Soleil = 2,380 / $400
> 
> Tuscany Village = 2,380 / $380
> 
> Seaworld = 1,680 / $360
> 
> 
> Does anyone recognize tiered pricing and now a tiered point structure?  Yes, big bad corporate american profit mongers are recognizing that not all facilities are the same.  Some are actually nicer and have more amenities and would call for a higher rate.
> 
> For the fear mongers out there, stay away from open season and these changes so there will be more availability for those who are not freaked by a little change.  Oh and one more thing, because my opinion may not match up with some then I guess I'm a Hilton plant as well....NOT.



Those are dates in 2014; wouldn't those be using the existing 2014 rates, not the new 2015 rates?

Kurt


----------



## PigsDad

Jason245 said:


> Well, there are a few  ways to look at this.
> 
> 1. Supply and Demand. If they can raise the prices to this and still keep occupancy at above 90%, then HGVC customers are fine with it. Alternativly, if occupancy drops to below 70%, then customers are not fine with it.
> 
> 2. They have decided to stop subsidizing low point owners usage of HGVC rooms. You look at it as a price increase, but the reality is that HGVC was (possibly, you would have to do the math), renting out the rooms for less than the MF they were paying on them.  These prices seem like they would put HGVC in line with being able to cover Maint Fees on these rooms. At the same time, Low point owners would be put in the position of having to buy more points if the MFs start being less than the rental cost on open season.
> 
> There is a sweet spot where rental rate is more than the MF, but less than the cost to rent the room as an outsider and/or getting a hotel room. HGVC is trying to find that spot, and given how deeply these rooms were subsidized in the past, we will probably see more price increases in the near future.



What you say may be perfectly true, and that is exactly why I have said this is HGVC destroying a benefit for their owners.  

When I bought, deeply subsidized Open Season rates were touted as a big benefit to ownership, and was a big factor in choosing to buy HGVC over a different timeshare.  HGVC properties sell for more (retail and in resale) than most other timeshares partly due to the benefits the buyers receive as owners.  Now HGVC is making Open Season pricing in line with the open market pricing.  Hence, no more benefit to owners.

Any bets on what this will do to resale pricing of HGVC properties?  There have been multiple people that stated they bought into HGVC because of the Open Season pricing benefit.  Less demand for HGVC properties will lead to lower prices.

Kurt


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Owners Send your Comments to HGVC*



jestme said:


> Yes, it WAS a great deal. You now need to look at what that same room will cost you in platinum season in 2015. With the new pricing table, that 1BR weekend rate starts at $145 and tops off at $290. The 1BR penthouse you refer to starts at $290 and tops off at $580. I could have had that same 1BR, $145 price in Hawaii this month, next month, in 2015 for a 1BR (not even a plus), it will be $280 / night. (I checked). Not quite double, and in 2013 I could have had that same room for $100. I also checked a 1BR+, in 2015, it will be $330 a night there!



We, HGVC members, are waiting to hear what top Management says about our reaction to the exorbitant rate increases.. Owners don't want to be treated as everyone. We have bought into the system and expect a big discount off the rates that outsiders pay. Make outsiders own, as we do, or pay much more than us, not the same or just a little more. That is what we want. Nothing less will be acceptable to reward our good feelings and our dollars to buy HGVC property. We feel like family when we are at a Hilton, we want to feel like family when we book an open season reservation, not like the general public.

I sent this to Barbara Rinks, Director of Member Services at HGVC Central Office. BRinks@HGVC.com

Send your own comments. Be respectful, indicate your displeasure, and expect to be treated as owners, members, and faithful Hilton people that expect to be rewarded for our dollars.
Tamaradarann is online now  Report Post  	 Edit/Delete Message


----------



## holdaer

*Doh!*



PigsDad said:


> Those are dates in 2014; wouldn't those be using the existing 2014 rates, not the new 2015 rates?
> 
> Kurt



Hmmm,  good point.  Well, I guess I should R-E-L-A-X.

At least I have a frame of reference posted.  I'll compare the same resorts in 2015 open season (same season) and see how different they are from each other. Looking at them together will provide a good visual reference.


----------



## bastroum

I have owned HGVC since 2000, along with Marriott and Starwood since 2006. There have been many changes in all the systems since. This is just one more. Everything changes and you need to adapt. Find other ways to save money using the system. These companies are in the business of making a profit and that's what HGVC is doing here. The only way it changes back is if no one books Open Season and the rooms go empty.


----------



## alwysonvac

PigsDad said:


> Check out the HGVC website -- they literally just changed the Open Season rate sheet.  I was there earlier today and it was still showing the 2014 rates.
> 
> Here are the 2015 rates:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note the price range now.  There is no explanation on how the ranges will be used, but it seems that HGVC can simply just pick a rate within that range, depending on how they feel.
> 
> Like I said before -- Open Season is no longer a benefit for HGVC owners.
> 
> Kurt



This is ridiculous. 
How is this a perk for owners? We're already paying by season. Why should we now have to pay a range within a season? 
I can understand perhaps a higher rate for event weeks but not every season!!

*HGVC members need to shop around. *
There are better options out there. Don't buy more HGVC points because Open Season rates are no longer a good deal instead buy a non-HGVC (that gives you full online RCI access and/or Interval Interval access). 
1st - HGVC is not showing you all of the available RCI rental inventory via Extra Vacations. HGVC members only have online access RCI's Last Call which only shows availability 45 days out. Last Call is a small subset of RCI Extra Vacations. RCI Extra Vacations currently shows rental rates through May 2016 !!
2nd - There are cheaper options outside of HGVC especially in areas such as Orlando and Vegas where there is a much higher supply of timeshares and it's available months in advance.

Here are some examples of RCI Extra Vacations that HGVC members can't see online via HGVC's RCI portal
- http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208000&highlight=extra
- http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208663&highlight=extra
- http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215901&highlight=extra
- http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208664&highlight=extra
- http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208662&highlight=extra

*On the RCI site, RCI members can rent a two bedroom at the HGVC Orlando resorts via RCI Extra Vacations months in advance for $1000 all year round. * 
HGVC member can't see this via the RCI portal since these are beyond the Last Call however HGVC members can still call up to book these reservations via the HGVC RCI desk.

I'll come back to post the link to show folks the RCI's Extra Vacation Dates & Rates for the HGVC resorts on the Sightings Forum  - http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220328 (NOTE: need to be a TUG member to view).


----------



## bogey21

bastroum said:


> I have owned HGVC since 2000, along with Marriott and Starwood since 2006. There have been many changes in all the systems since. This is just one more.



You are right.  Many changes and more to come.  None will favor Owners.  It is just the way the game is played.

George


----------



## alwysonvac

*Send your comments to HGVC*

I agree with Tamaradarann that owners need to voice their concern otherwise silence will be interpreted as acceptance (that as owners we have no issue with this latest changes).

I have an issue since Open Season Rates have dramatically changed since I bought HGVC in 2003 (see table below).

2015 Open Season 
Studio $60 - $290/night
One Bedroom $80 - $580/night
Two Bedroom $105 - $750/night
Three Bedroom $160 - $880/night

Open Season Cash Rental Rate History






Everything costs more (Maintenance Fees, Booking Fees, Annual Club Dues, Point Stretching Exchange Fees, etc) and we're getting less and less for our dollars.

HGVC is ok with charging us more for Open Season however we're not seeing any increase our side for better conversion rates for HHonors and Club Partner Perks.

*Keep in mind, HGVC allows Club Members to apply your points towards non-timeshare stays such as cruises and Hilton Hotels stays but it doesn't provide it at a great rate.* Depending on the hotel you select, you are more than likely to spend more for the room using HGVC than using cash. Hilton went from hotel room costing *450 to 1,500* HGVC pts/nt in 2003 to hotels room costing *375 to 4,750* HGVC pts /nt in 2014. 
_NOTE: Owners who bought years ago were told how they can trade their points to travel worldwide using Hilton hotels/resorts however Club members can't get the similar level of accommodations with the same number of points years later._


HGVC Executives - http://www.hiltongrandvacationsmediacenter.com/index.cfm/page/11003

Mark Wang's contact information from the ARDA website 
President Global Sales & Hilton Grand Vacations
Hilton Worldwide
5323 Millenia Lakes Boulevard
Suite 400
Orlando, FL 32839
407.722.3100 phone
407.722.3123 fax
mwang@hgvc.com


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Changes are part of Life But……….*



bogey21 said:


> You are right.  Many changes and more to come.  None will favor Owners.  It is just the way the game is played.
> 
> George
> 
> Changes are part of life so we all have to be prepared for them.  Prices go up, Hilton Honors Point Requirements have been raised, and open season reservations have become season dependent.
> 
> However, I have never seen change or increases go up 100% in one day.  That is excessive and will make our Open Season Rates comparable to the price that outsiders pay.  Therefore, we will not be getting the benefit we have been sold as HGVC members.  If our Open Season Rate is going to be $300 a night for a one bedroom, then they need to have the non-members pay $600 a night without a discount when the room doesn't get booked.


----------



## alwysonvac

FYI....

There's a question posted on HGVC's facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/HiltonGrandVacations



> _Hello! I posted something last night and it is strangely gone. I asked why the Open Season rates are up 100%. I tried for 2 nights in a 2 bedroom Premier and it was over $900 Jan.1-3, 2015!_
> 
> _*Hilton Grand Vacations:* Let us find out for you! Stay tuned._


----------



## jestme

alwysonvac said:


> FYI....
> 
> There's a question posted on HGVC's facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/HiltonGrandVacations



That question and response is now gone as well. Apparently their PR people weren't prepared in advance on how to answer this question either.


----------



## alwysonvac

It's still there on Facebook this morning under "Posts to Page". 
Right now, it's still the first entry by Nina Jo-Ring on December 6 at 8:56am

https://www.facebook.com/HiltonGrandVacations


For those, who don't know, the very small "Posts to Page" section can be found in the left hand column after several other sections.
- Scroll down past the other sections in the left hand column (People, About, Photos, Videos, Liked by this Page, and Apps)
- Then click on the ">" sign in the upper right hand corner of the "Post to Page" Section to expand the section and click to see all comments for each entry. For example right now it is showing the number "3" to indicate three comments.


----------



## sluggohill

If you want Hilton to notice social media, rather than posting in the difficult to see post to page section, I suggest tweeting them on twitter.

The HGVC handle is @HiltonGrandVac

If they start getting tweets from a lot of members about open season rates, they'll notice.  I just tweeted them.


----------



## alwysonvac

sluggohill said:


> If you want Hilton to notice social media, rather than posting in the difficult to see post to page section, I suggest tweeting them on twitter.
> 
> The HGVC handle is @HiltonGrandVac
> 
> If they start getting tweets from a lot of members about open season rates, they'll notice.  I just tweeted them.



Thanks for the tip 
https://twitter.com/search?q=HiltonGrandVac 

I think we should hit them both.
lol, I have to sign up for twitter tonight after work.


----------



## aamista

the rate change is now by resort, destination and supply and demand


----------



## Purseval

We are one of those who bought with open season rates in mind.  When we first bought it was a great deal to stay at the Orlando locations, such beautiful resorts with so much more to offer than a similarly priced hotel.  In 2014 they lost that edge and we didn't spend one day at a Hilton resort.  With this latest increase we'll probably just sell and rent from others on an as-needed basis.  They priced us right out of the market.


----------



## bastroum

Purseval said:


> We are one of those who bought with open season rates in mind.  When we first bought it was a great deal to stay at the Orlando locations, such beautiful resorts with so much more to offer than a similarly priced hotel.  In 2014 they lost that edge and we didn't spend one day at a Hilton resort.  With this latest increase we'll probably just sell and rent from others on an as-needed basis.  They priced us right out of the market.



That's exactly what HGVC wants you to do. Why else would they price the rates so high? There must be a high demand on the open market for these units. What else makes sense?


----------



## aamista

i contacted HGVC customer service for a open season quotation
1  studio on HGVC paradise las vegas on January for $80 weekdays 
and guess what.. it's the same price on their hilton website for everyone else
another member benefit is gone


----------



## bastroum

aamista said:


> i contacted HGVC customer service for a open season quotation
> 1  studio on HGVC paradise las vegas on January for $80 weekdays
> and guess what.. it's the same price on their hilton website for everyone else
> another member benefit is gone



Unless the BENEFIT IS GUARANTEED IN WRITING FOR A SPECIFIC PERIOD OF TIME IT WILL ALWAYS GO AWAY. Some of the benefits I have received from Marriott went away in a few short months. Others, like this benefit, took years to go away. 

I am not happy about it, but not surprised either. ALL the major timeshare companies do the same thing.


----------



## bogey21

Many, many years ago when Marriott devalued their Rental and Resale Programs I saw the writing on the wall and sold my 4 Weeks at a profit no less.  I received a total of $85,000 and used about $8,000 of it to purchase 6 carefully selected Weeks at HOA controlled Independents around the country.  No doubt a fortuitous decision.

George


----------



## aamista

here is the answer i got back from hilton after i informed them that the rate is the same as website :

during our analysis it was intended that the rates would be a percentage under what is published on hilton.com (subject to supply, demand and location).  In the case you show, it appears the rate has been reduced on Hilton.com for those specific dates.    

I will contact my inventory management group and discuss this matter to see how we can insure these rate reductions are reflected in the system from which Open Season Cash rental is booked.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

aamista said:


> here is the answer i got back from hilton after i informed them that the rate is the same as website :
> 
> during our analysis it was intended that the rates would be a percentage under what is published on hilton.com (subject to supply, demand and location).  In the case you show, it appears the rate has been reduced on Hilton.com for those specific dates.
> 
> I will contact my inventory management group and discuss this matter to see how we can insure these rate reductions are reflected in the system from which Open Season Cash rental is booked.



Thanks for the research.. Maybe HGVC just assumed Hilton.com only listed the rack rate.. and nobody would notice the discounted rate is now the same as open season..If it stays that way, its a lousy change.. but not all together too surprising..


If rates end up being the same or close, i would just book on Hilton.com and earn the HHonors points...


----------



## JenMuse

Sent a tweet - was redirected to a reply to a similar complaint on Facebook...

Pasting reply here for those who have no desire to go to fb.

Hilton Grand Vacations: We thank you for your communication, and trust that the following update serves to bring further clarity to this topic:

As the vacation ownership inventory at our properties reaches a sold out status, the Open Season availability for units respectively diminishes. Open Season Rental rates remain flexible based on location, season, day of the week and demand. Beginning in 2015, some nightly rates remain similar to those of the previous year, and some increased rates are based on the location, season or day of the week that are historically in higher demand by our Club Members.

The intention of this update was to offer these accommodations during the 30 day booking window at a percentage-off of what can be found on Hilton.com, which primarily offers the inventory that HGV Owners actually give back to the Club in exchange for other benefits or Partner Perks such as cruises, RV rentals, houseboats, etc. Previous rates were not reflective of the specific marketplace: for example, a 1-bedroom in Orlando does not equate to the same as a 1-bedroom in Honolulu. These recent updates to the Open Season rates chart remedy such discrepancies. 

We will continue to monitor the markets in which we operate HGV resorts, and offer seasonally adjusted Open Season rates in an effort to provide the most desirable offers to our Owners. While we understand this recent change may initially be frustrating, we apologize that our notification did not reach you before the Open Season window opened for January 1.


----------



## Jason245

1Kflyerguy said:


> Thanks for the research.. Maybe HGVC just assumed Hilton.com only listed the rack rate.. and nobody would notice the discounted rate is now the same as open season..If it stays that way, its a lousy change.. but not all together too surprising..
> 
> 
> If rates end up being the same or close, i would just book on Hilton.com and earn the HHonors points...



Taken a step further, if you value HHonors points at least $.005 a piece (which is my value), you should factor that into your booking decisions.

For example if the rate is 150 on Hilton web site and $140 for Open Season, The points earned might exceed the cash savings. (in this instance, a Diamond member would earn upwards of 20 Points per dollar = 3000 HH points which would be worth at least $15 , not counting other perks or promotion points that might be earned/given).


----------



## aamista

1Kflyerguy said:


> Thanks for the research.. Maybe HGVC just assumed Hilton.com only listed the rack rate.. and nobody would notice the discounted rate is now the same as open season..If it stays that way, its a lousy change.. but not all together too surprising..
> 
> 
> If rates end up being the same or close, i would just book on Hilton.com and earn the HHonors points...



I just got an email from them stated that the price on the aame period has been updated to be $60 instead of $80 and the system now should be more automated toward discounts that will appear on hilton.com to assure that hgvc members have lower prices than the website even when there is an offer on the website


----------



## Jason245

JenMuse said:


> Sent a tweet - was redirected to a reply to a similar complaint on Facebook...
> 
> Pasting reply here for those who have no desire to go to fb.
> 
> Hilton Grand Vacations: We thank you for your communication, and trust that the following update serves to bring further clarity to this topic:
> 
> As the vacation ownership inventory at our properties reaches a sold out status, the Open Season availability for units respectively diminishes. Open Season Rental rates remain flexible based on location, season, day of the week and demand. Beginning in 2015, some nightly rates remain similar to those of the previous year, and some increased rates are based on the location, season or day of the week that are historically in higher demand by our Club Members.
> 
> The intention of this update was to offer these accommodations during the 30 day booking window at a percentage-off of what can be found on Hilton.com, which primarily offers the inventory that HGV Owners actually give back to the Club in exchange for other benefits or Partner Perks such as cruises, RV rentals, houseboats, etc. Previous rates were not reflective of the specific marketplace: for example, a 1-bedroom in Orlando does not equate to the same as a 1-bedroom in Honolulu. These recent updates to the Open Season rates chart remedy such discrepancies.
> 
> We will continue to monitor the markets in which we operate HGV resorts, and offer seasonally adjusted Open Season rates in an effort to provide the most desirable offers to our Owners. While we understand this recent change may initially be frustrating, we apologize that our notification did not reach you before the Open Season window opened for January 1.



Translation:

Someone paid their $1k MF and then sold us the right to their week for $500.  We are going to take their week and rent it for as much as we can so that we can increase our profits.  If the guy in charge can somehow rent that $500 unit for $2k for the week, he gets a bonus, if he only gets $1500 he doesn't get a bonus. 

We got a bunch of suckers to pay retail for their Timershares, and if we can get them on the open season side and it works, our next stop is to start selling Primerica insurance and Amway products at all of our resorts followed by Tuppaware parties in the evenings.


----------



## jestme

aamista said:


> here is the answer i got back from hilton after i informed them that the rate is the same as website :
> 
> during our analysis it was intended that the rates would be a percentage under what is published on hilton.com (subject to supply, demand and location).  In the case you show, it appears the rate has been reduced on Hilton.com for those specific dates.
> 
> I will contact my inventory management group and discuss this matter to see how we can insure these rate reductions are reflected in the system from which Open Season Cash rental is booked.



Their response ignores the fact that you get absolutely no additional benefit trading in a Honolulu unit for a cruise or other trade in benefit, than you do if you trade in an Orlando or Las Vegas unit. Make up your mind, points are points when you trade them in, but the Open Season benefits for trade in's certainly seems to have great financial advantages for you. The room I bought in Honolulu also cost a lot more than the units in Orlando, for the same number of points. If I trade those in, the variation in price they speak of has already been paid, by me, up front. 
Also, if they are expecting it to be a percentage of the Hilton.Com rate, then that rate is already demand oriented. To add an additional charge to that for a weekend rate, or a timeshare season, makes no sense either. 
This is a total elimination of the benefit, plain and simple. It also seems to be poorly implemented, with all types of misconstrued criteria and decisions.


----------



## Beacon888

We loved booking open season at Elara and Flamingo. 1 bedroom for 3 night weekend will now cost us $480 to $570. Totally not worth it now


----------



## mhoutsma

*And you can't cancel*

The fact you can't cancel an open season reservation also means any "discount" over the rack rate is apples to oranges.  I still like the system overall, but this is a huge downer and makes me much less likely to talk it up to friends and family.


----------



## alwysonvac

*Because others do it, doesn't make it right*

As stated in the HGVC Member Guide, HGVC has the right to change the rules.


> _*Program Changes.* Club program use options and rules, including but not limited to, the RCI Exchange Program, special exchanges, nightly point values, the Hilton HHonors program, ClubPoint Depositing/Borrowing/Converting, and ClubPartner Perks that may be offered from time to time, are subject to change, adjustment, suspension or discontinuation without notice. Any such changes will not apply to transactions confirmed prior to the effective date of any such change. In the event the point values for accommodations are adjusted, such adjustments shall not disturb the one-to-one purchaser to accommodation ratio, or a Club Member’s ability to reserve their Home Week._



Yes, all of the major hotel based companies have made changes over the years.
*But it doesn't make it right and it doesn't mean we have to rollover and play dead.*

Change for the better just doesn't happen on it's own. If folks just accepted things because "everyone does it" or "it's always been that way", we won't have some of the things we take for granted today. Folks have to fight and sometimes it's a long struggle and takes multiple attempts to get the desired outcome (like the fight against Big Tobacco, Equal Rights / Equal Pay, Labor Laws, Lemon Law, etc). 

LOL, perhaps I need to find a group/board that's is trying to address consumer rights/protection in the timeshare industry.

*For those who don't know, here are some of the past HGVC changes*
- Reduced Home Week Reservation period 
- Changed Club Season from check-in date to check-out date
- Changed Open Season to Cash only
- Changed Open Season to accommodate increases for weekends vs weekdays
- Changed Open Season to accommodate increases for the various seasons
- Change Guest Confirmation fee from complimentary
- Changed from the standard point structure for all Club resorts 
- Changed from the standard window for Club Season for all Club Resorts (i.e. Hokulani)
- Changed from the standard open season availability for all Club Resort (i.e. W57th St)


----------



## alwysonvac

bogey21 said:


> Many, many years ago when Marriott devalued their Rental and Resale Programs I saw the writing on the wall and sold my 4 Weeks at a profit no less.  I received a total of $85,000 and used about $8,000 of it to purchase 6 carefully selected Weeks at HOA controlled Independents around the country.  No doubt a fortuitous decision.
> 
> George



I think it's shameful that the well known hotel brands entered in the timeshare business using their reputation and brand recognition with no plans to truly provide the vacation value they promised. 

I've also seen the writing on the wall based on the various TUG threads over the years across the various hotel based timeshare forums. It's the same story. 

Thank goodness, I found TUG before my first timeshare purchase and didn't spend lots of money on my timeshares. Although, resale prices are much lower now then when I bought years ago. 

I made up my mind years ago, that this won't be a long term relationship. I will get what I can out of it and move on. Although, I'm actually thinking about dumping some sooner than expected based on recent events.


----------



## alwysonvac

jestme said:


> Their response ignores the fact that you get absolutely no additional benefit trading in a Honolulu unit for a cruise or other trade in benefit, than you do if you trade in an Orlando or Las Vegas unit. Make up your mind, points are points when you trade them in, but the Open Season benefits for trade in's certainly seems to have great financial advantages for you. The room I bought in Honolulu also cost a lot more than the units in Orlando, for the same number of points. If I trade those in, the variation in price they speak of has already been paid, by me, up front.
> Also, if they are expecting it to be a percentage of the Hilton.Com rate, then that rate is already demand oriented. To add an additional charge to that for a weekend rate, or a timeshare season, makes no sense either.
> This is a total elimination of the benefit, plain and simple. It also seems to be poorly implemented, with all types of misconstrued criteria and decisions.



Exactly !!

They stated _"As the vacation ownership inventory at our properties reaches a sold out status, the Open Season availability for units respectively diminishes."_

Oahu has always been in high demand. The two older towers were long sold out before Grand Waikikan came along. There has always been low supply in Oahu.  So now years later, this is the reason we need higher prices 

The Lagoon Tower opened in 2001 (13 years ago) with 236 units 
The Kalia Tower opened 2004 (10 years ago) with only 72 units.
The Grand Waikikian Tower opened in 2008 (6 years ago) with 331 units.


----------



## GeorgeJ.

About a year ago I stayed 3 nights at the Las Vegas Strip HGVC. I checked the Hilton website first and found it was quite a bit cheaper to pay for the stay through Hilton AND get HHonors points for the stay than to pay the Open Season rate. 

While the Open Season rates were a great deal back when we bought in the 90's, they haven't been that great in recent years (at least since the rates were different depending upon season). It looks like the 2015 Open Season rates will be pretty much useless. Thanks HGVC...

If it's true that Open Season comes from Hilton inventory, then just what happens to owner weeks that just aren't reserved? Those get transferred to Hilton at some point and the HOA/owners get screwed?


----------



## sluggohill

GeorgeJ. said:


> About a year ago I stayed 3 nights at the Las Vegas Strip HGVC. I checked the Hilton website first and found it was quite a bit cheaper to pay for the stay through Hilton AND get HHonors points for the stay than to pay the Open Season rate.
> 
> While the Open Season rates were a great deal back when we bought in the 90's, they haven't been that great in recent years (at least since the rates were different depending upon season). It looks like the 2015 Open Season rates will be pretty much useless. Thanks HGVC...
> 
> If it's true that Open Season comes from Hilton inventory, then just what happens to owner weeks that just aren't reserved? Those get transferred to Hilton at some point and the HOA/owners get screwed?



Eh...it depends.  I looked at Las Vegas for the weekend of Jan 2-Jan 5 and, for studios it was close (still slightly less using OS rates) but as the rooms got bigger the cost diverged and made OS a better deal.  I don't think the price difference is worth the points if you value HHonors points at $0.005 per.

The same weekend shows no availability in Orlando on the Hilton booking site but there are studios on HGVClub.com.  I guess open season can have availability advantages over the booking site.

Interestingly, on Revolution, Myrtle Beach only shows you can use points for that weekend - no cash option is given.  I called HGVC and that appears to be a glitch because she gave a cash option for $99 total for the three nights.

Certainly, though, the larger point that a good benefit of HGVC membership has been devalued is valid.  That said, the overall value of membership, if you buy resale, is still pretty good.


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Value of HGVC is still good but….*



sluggohill said:


> Eh...it depends.  I looked at Las Vegas for the weekend of Jan 2-Jan 5 and, for studios it was close (still slightly less using OS rates) but as the rooms got bigger the cost diverged and made OS a better deal.  I don't think the price difference is worth the points if you value HHonors points at $0.005 per.
> 
> The same weekend shows no availability in Orlando on the Hilton booking site but there are studios on HGVClub.com.  I guess open season can have availability advantages over the booking site.
> 
> Interestingly, on Revolution, Myrtle Beach only shows you can use points for that weekend - no cash option is given.  I called HGVC and that appears to be a glitch because she gave a cash option for $99 total for the three nights.
> 
> Certainly, though, the larger point that a good benefit of HGVC membership has been devalued is valid.  That said, the overall value of membership, if you buy resale, is still pretty good.



I agree that the value of HGVC is good.  However, when you buy into a system with a certain benefits package, just as when you take a job with a certain benefits package and management changes the rules you feel cheated.  From what I read Hilton is giving some lame excuses for what they are doing that from a customer perspective doesn't cut it.  The higher demand resorts and seasons availability during open season just as the higher demand club resorts and seasons availability is reserved quickly.  The open season lower demand resorts and lower demand seasons, at times, remain unreserved.  That is a fact of the desirability of location just as in real estate values.  However, HGVC management raising the open season rates for those highly desired locations is taking away a benefit that members had.  They need to reconsider giving some benefit to members for taking away this benefit.


----------



## jonevans

*Union yes*

Sounds like as a whole we all would like to have a voice in the way we get to use our hgvc system but where do you get to vote?

The new way of american is to just screw over everyone 1 time and then start over doing it again some other way.  If you do it is fine as you get something with a benifit but when done to you, now how many time will you let it happen?

The collective are not organized Nor negotiating a veted right so when we all get screwed it is just a single hit to everyone not a mass blow to us all as a single party.

Read the diffrence of views 
some find it just making it even-  not seeing that they are effecting everyones past and future

Thouse that see that they are being taken advantage of - not seeing that with out a contract you never truly desirve anything

So do you get or give a srew is up to you.

I bought my hgvc with the expectation it would be worth $0 in the future so i am just getting older faster than i think


----------



## Talent312

In a thread years-ago, a poster reported that a HGVC CSR had suggested making a hilton.com "hotel" booking before O/S opened, and if O/S proved viable, cancelling the "hotel" booking and rebooking with O/S.

To me, that makes even more sense these days, since you may be able to get a cheaper advance-booking rate thru hilton.com than you would during the O/S 30-day window.

.


----------



## sluggohill

Tamaradarann said:


> I agree that the value of HGVC is good.  However, when you buy into a system with a certain benefits package, just as when you take a job with a certain benefits package and management changes the rules you feel cheated.  From what I read Hilton is giving some lame excuses for what they are doing that from a customer perspective doesn't cut it.  The higher demand resorts and seasons availability during open season just as the higher demand club resorts and seasons availability is reserved quickly.  The open season lower demand resorts and lower demand seasons, at times, remain unreserved.  That is a fact of the desirability of location just as in real estate values.  However, HGVC management raising the open season rates for those highly desired locations is taking away a benefit that members had.  They need to reconsider giving some benefit to members for taking away this benefit.



I'm not arguing that owners should be happy - I agree with most of your points.  This is a devaluation of a benefit - the 2014 rates were a great deal given the overall quality of the rooms.  

I lodged a complaint with Hilton and they responded that the O/S rates are being reset to give a % discount off the market rate for each property.  Hilton has clearly looked at rates and decided they can still give a decent discount yet extract more money from HGVC owners.  

An organized protest might be effective but I suspect it won't happen because most owners aren't as tuned into all aspects of the value of membership as the people on this board are. They didn't devalue the primary benefit of membership - the point value in the system - it is a change of an ancillary benefit that not all people use.

The only other choice is to evaluate whether the program is worth staying in or sell it off because the value proposition isn't worth it.  In my opinion, the value is still pretty good but less so than before because of the change in O/S rates.  

I get why people are upset - something bought is now less valuable.  

Do I feel cheated?  No because the T&C clearly tell you they can do this.


----------



## GTLINZ

They started increasing the open season rates last year - and the latest changes appear to be over the top. It is not much of a benefit anymore, except possibly in off season. It appears that they are making sure they milk every dollar out of peak times. This change reminds me of what they did to our HH points - change to get more when they can get it.

I also have noticed in the last year it is much harder to get availability than it was for me in the past.

As for this helping the MFs, I suspect it does not. I suspect Corporate has a way of funneling the money back to themselves.

I actually was going to get another HGVC unit, but the open season and HH changes last year persuaded me otherwise.


----------



## jestme

GTLINZ said:


> As for this helping the MFs, I suspect it does not. I suspect Corporate has a way of funneling the money back to themselves.



I asked last year where the revenue went for Open Season rates. They confirmed the money went directly to HGVC, and NOT to the resort it was spent on. So, the HOA at that resort has additional costs for maid service, laundry, check in desk, heating, cooling, etc. but does not get a dime of the "Open Season" money to offset those costs. I confirmed that with the Statement of Income And Expenses from my resort. There are only two revenue lines. MF's, and interest on the reserve for future expenses. 
On the good side, I own in Hawaii, where the "resort is sold out and demand is high", and I expect we will get less of those additional costs for cleaning etc. because of much less use of Open Season at these new ridiculous rates. I fully expect MF's to drop because of that..... :rofl:


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Less Open Season Booking, but not less occupancy*



jestme said:


> I asked last year where the revenue went for Open Season rates. They confirmed the money went directly to HGVC, and NOT to the resort it was spent on. So, the HOA at that resort has additional costs for maid service, laundry, check in desk, heating, cooling, etc. but does not get a dime of the "Open Season" money to offset those costs. I confirmed that with the Statement of Income And Expenses from my resort. There are only two revenue lines. MF's, and interest on the reserve for future expenses.
> On the good side, I own in Hawaii, where the "resort is sold out and demand is high", and I expect we will get less of those additional costs for cleaning etc. because of much less use of Open Season at these new ridiculous rates. I fully expect MF's to drop because of that..... :rofl:



I agree with you that because of the high open season rates there will be less utilization of open season booking.  However, I don't expect that Hilton will let those rooms stay vacant so that there will be less occupancy.  They will rent those units to the general public.  Hilton is a big hospitality company.  They advertise all over all the time.  They have thousands of Hotels and will fill the Hawaii units, which is the main area which they have raised Open Season Rates, with paying customers without regard to HGVC ownership.  They are looking to fill their beds with as high a paying customer that they can and they don't regard HGVC owner/members anymore favorably than someone off the street.  Your maintenance fees will continue to go up the same percentage that it would have.


----------



## GTLINZ

jestme said:


> I asked last year where the revenue went for Open Season rates. They confirmed the money went directly to HGVC, and NOT to the resort it was spent on. So, the HOA at that resort has additional costs for maid service, laundry, check in desk, heating, cooling, etc. but does not get a dime of the "Open Season" money to offset those costs. I confirmed that with the Statement of Income And Expenses from my resort. There are only two revenue lines. MF's, and interest on the reserve for future expenses.



If that is true, it is sad. That would just drive up the costs for the owners...


----------



## jestme

GTLINZ said:


> If that is true, it is sad. That would just drive up the costs for the owners...



Actually, it won't. As I have stated a number of times, the main reason I bought, was Open Season rates as driven in to me again and again during their sales pitch, and I am not alone. I bought in Hawaii because of that. 
As that "ancillary benefit" is now totally useless in Hawaii, I will respond as I usually do when respect for me as a customer with ANY company is ignored, or taken for granted. I will respond with my wallet. 
I used to spend a BUNCH of money while on vacation at the HHV in Hawaii at their restaurants and bars. They can certainly look that up if they want to. The waiters and waitresses there know me by fist name and remember my, and my wife's drink when I arrive again 11 months later. That undocumented "ancillary benefit" to Hilton has been available to them over the past 10 years, and is certainly at my independent discretion to change. Their cavalier attitude to holding us HGVC owners hostage to the new Hawaii "Open Season" rates, simply to increase profits, has me far more than annoyed. As HGVC owners, we are, by far, the largest corporate customer Blackstone and Hilton have. If they want to take us for granted, reduce the value of our membership, increase our room costs by more than 300% in 13 months,far more than they would dare to try in the hotel open market, (or in any other industry, for any other product, anywhere on the planet for that matter) they will soon learn a long known business lesson. "If you lose the customers you already have, you had better have an excellent business plan to get all new ones, or you won't have any at all." I seriously doubt they have. I no longer think their management is that intelligent. 
I'm certain I won't be the only one to penalize them by spending less there. Other members will have to stay a shorter period of time, or have to spend food and drink money elsewhere to stay within their vacation budgets while they are there. 
As a business person, this is very confusing to me. As the HHV has always been a "high demand" location, there has been a very limited Open Season rooms available there forever. These increased rates cannot be much of a revenue generator, as the number of available "room nights" cannot be generating that much increased revenue to justify the PR and sales losses. In fact, at the new rates, it may be a net revenue loss to them, as people simply wont book at those prices. I've noticed the Open Season rooms available online for the HHV are all still there, none seem to be gobbled up as they would have been in the past. 
HGVC. Financially, is this really worth the loss of membership respect for HVC, and loss of sales pitch potential worldwide?


----------



## Tamaradarann

*New Open Season Rates are Variable*



jestme said:


> Actually, it won't. As I have stated a number of times, the main reason I bought, was Open Season rates as driven in to me again and again during their sales pitch, and I am not alone. I bought in Hawaii because of that.
> As that "ancillary benefit" is now totally useless in Hawaii, I will respond as I usually do when respect for me as a customer with ANY company is ignored, or taken for granted. I will respond with my wallet.
> I used to spend a BUNCH of money while on vacation at the HHV in Hawaii at their restaurants and bars. They can certainly look that up if they want to. The waiters and waitresses there know me by fist name and remember my, and my wife's drink when I arrive again 11 months later. That undocumented "ancillary benefit" to Hilton has been available to them over the past 10 years, and is certainly at my independent discretion to change. Their cavalier attitude to holding us HGVC owners hostage to the new Hawaii "Open Season" rates, simply to increase profits, has me far more than annoyed. As HGVC owners, we are, by far, the largest corporate customer Blackstone and Hilton have. If they want to take us for granted, reduce the value of our membership, increase our room costs by more than 300% in 13 months,far more than they would dare to try in the hotel open market, (or in any other industry, for any other product, anywhere on the planet for that matter) they will soon learn a long known business lesson. "If you lose the customers you already have, you had better have an excellent business plan to get all new ones, or you won't have any at all." I seriously doubt they have. I no longer think their management is that intelligent.
> I'm certain I won't be the only one to penalize them by spending less there. Other members will have to stay a shorter period of time, or have to spend food and drink money elsewhere to stay within their vacation budgets while they are there.
> As a business person, this is very confusing to me. As the HHV has always been a "high demand" location, there has been a very limited Open Season rooms available there forever. These increased rates cannot be much of a revenue generator, as the number of available "room nights" cannot be generating that much increased revenue to justify the PR and sales losses. In fact, at the new rates, it may be a net revenue loss to them, as people simply wont book at those prices. I've noticed the Open Season rooms available online for the HHV are all still there, none seem to be gobbled up as they would have been in the past.
> HGVC. Financially, is this really worth the loss of membership respect for HVC, and loss of sales pitch potential worldwide?



While the new open season rates give the same ranges for all the resorts it seems that with about 10 days of January visable at this time only the Hawaiian resorts have been raised.  The other resorts, at least in early January, are at the bottom of the range which is the old rates.  The rates at the Hawaiian resorts have all been raised but not the same amount.  It seems that Oahu has been raised to the max, while the Waikoloa resorts have been raised somewhere between Oahu and the rest of the HGVC resorts.  I, like many of the HGVC owners, value the Hawaiian resorts more than other resorts so the raise does effect my vacation interests more than if other resorts were raised.  My understanding is that the open season rates will be raised at other HGVC resorts at times when they feel that the demand is great so availability is slim, i.e. Orlando when the kids are out of school in Orlando.  

From an owner perspective this is not as bad as their raising all the resorts to the max all the time, however, it does reduce our owner benefits significantly.


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## chriskre

I just posted a comment on their FB page and they redirected me to the thread that apparently wasn't deleted after all.  
This is what is on there so far.  

I guess they don't care what we think.  
For these new prices I'd much rather stay at a Marriott with an AC from II.
Glad I only own a biennial.  

I'll still use it as intended initially for Marco island, but they won't be seeing me much in Orlando anymore and I go there sometimes every month.  
It was nice while it lasted but slumming it at Marriott won't be so bad.  



Nina Jo-Ring‎Hilton Grand Vacations
December 6 at 11:56am · Honolulu, HI · 
Hello! I posted something last night and it is strangely gone. I asked why the Open Season rates are up 100%. I tried for 2 nights in a 2 bedroom Premier and it was over $900 Jan.1-3, 2015!

Like ·  · Share
2 people like this.

Hilton Grand Vacations Let us find out for you! Stay tuned.
Like · Reply · December 6 at 7:24pm

Phyllis Burt Yes, please let us know why HGVC has decided to significantly increase Open Season rates. Open Season Rates was suppose to be an owner benefit.

FOR EXAMPLE...See More
Phyllis Burt's photo.
Like · Reply · December 7 at 11:40pm

Eb Brodie Yes, please justify the ridiculous increases in open season rates, other than having to drive up revenues due to the recent Hilton IPO.
Like · Reply · December 8 at 2:03am

Mark Hill I agree. To all here, the HGVC twitter handle is @HiltonGrandVac. I suggest you tweet this at them.
Like · Reply · December 8 at 7:47am

Hilton Grand Vacations We thank you for your communication, and trust that the following update serves to bring further clarity to this topic:

As the vacation ownership inventory at our properties reaches a sold out status, the Open Season availability for units respectively diminishes. Open Season Rental rates remain flexible based on location, season, day of the week and demand. Beginning in 2015, some nightly rates remain similar to those of the previous year, and some increased rates are based on the location, season or day of the week that are historically in higher demand by our Club Members.

The intention of this update was to offer these accommodations during the 30 day booking window at a percentage-off of what can be found on Hilton.com, which primarily offers the inventory that HGV Owners actually give back to the Club in exchange for other benefits or Partner Perks such as cruises, RV rentals, houseboats, etc. Previous rates were not reflective of the specific marketplace: for example, a 1-bedroom in Orlando does not equate to the same as a 1-bedroom in Honolulu. These recent updates to the Open Season rates chart remedy such discrepancies. 

We will continue to monitor the markets in which we operate HGV resorts, and offer seasonally adjusted Open Season rates in an effort to provide the most desirable offers to our Owners. While we understand this recent change may initially be frustrating, we apologize that our notification did not reach you before the Open Season window opened for January 1.
Like · Reply · December 8 at 4:15pm

Eb Brodie What a crock!! It's about the $$$ pure and simple.

Just looked up the changes...here is an example

HGVC Hawaii
3 nights, Sat Dec 27- Tue Dec 30 
Bay Club $460
Kohala Suites $460
Kings Land $535

4 nights, Sat Dec 27- Wed Dec 31 
Bay Club $605
Kohala Suites $605
Kings Land $705
==============

3 nights, Sat Jan 3 - Tue Jan 6 
Bay Club $800
Kohala Suites $N/A
Kings Land $900

4 nights, Sat Jan 3 - Wed Jan 7 
Bay Club $1,060
Kohala Suites $N/A
Kings Land $1,180

This is completely unacceptable and out right theft!
Like · Reply · 1 · December 11 at 2:25am


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## alwysonvac

Tamaradarann said:


> While the new open season rates give the same ranges for all the resorts it seems that with about 10 days of January visable at this time only the Hawaiian resorts have been raised.  The other resorts, at least in early January, are at the bottom of the range which is the old rates.  The rates at the Hawaiian resorts have all been raised but not the same amount.  It seems that Oahu has been raised to the max, while the Waikoloa resorts have been raised somewhere between Oahu and the rest of the HGVC resorts.  I, like many of the HGVC owners, value the Hawaiian resorts more than other resorts so the raise does effect my vacation interests more than if other resorts were raised.  My understanding is that the open season rates will be raised at other HGVC resorts at times when they feel that the demand is great so availability is slim, i.e. Orlando when the kids are out of school in Orlando.
> 
> From an owner perspective this is not as bad as their raising all the resorts to the max all the time, however, it does reduce our owner benefits significantly.



Keep up the fight !!
Don't be deceived by this initial rollout. HGVC normally starts off slow then they'll steadily start to increase prices. 

OPEN SEASON CHANGES OVER THE YEARS
- Changed Open Season to Cash only (2 night minimum)
- Changed Open Season to accommodate increases for weekends vs weekdays
- Changed Open Season to accommodate increases for the various seasons (first they only had Platinum broken out and Silver/Gold together - see 2012 chart below)
- Now Changed Open Season to accommodate increase for ranges within season and by resort







HERE'S THE 2012 CHART


PigsDad said:


> They are based on room size, category and season.  Here is the current nightly rate chart for 2012:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kurt


----------



## jestme

Sounds like at any time you would want to go, they will raise the prices. Isn't that what the timeshare seasons were already there for? Now, they will probably raise rates for events as well, (like Daytona 500, CES in Vegas, Honolulu marathon, etc.) 
I've noticed almost all of the January Oahu inventory is still there. No one seems to be using any days that I've seen. I think they may have way overreached with pricing this time. 
I've also received HHV hotel specials via email this week, starting at $179. Including a $50 per stay voucher for restaurants and bars, with an hour earlier check in, an hour later check in, maid service daily, and HHonors points, not only for the room, but for meals and drinks as well. Maybe the hotel side of the business in Oahu has better management than HGVC and they understand we may be looking for another option. With my current feelings about Hilton, I will probably look elsewhere anyhow.


----------



## PigsDad

Tamaradarann said:


> While the new open season rates give the same ranges for all the resorts it seems that with about 10 days of January visable *at this time only the Hawaiian resorts have been raised*.


Unfortunately, it doesn't look like that is true.  I just checked for a std 2BR Mon/Tue (2 night) at Valdoro in January, the price came up at *$502*.  Not a holiday week or anything.  The range per night for a std 2BR during Plat season is $145-$290, so it looks like they are pricing that toward the top end of the range. 

Kurt


----------



## WORLD TRAVELER

*Equity Management Ownership of Hilton*

These steep rate increases are what to expect when Hilton is no longer owned by the Hilton family but instead stockholders and an equity management company mainly concerned with making as much money as possible for the stockholders regardless how it affects timeshare owners and HHonors members on the hotel side.


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## PigsDad

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> These steep rate increases are what to expect when Hilton is no longer owned by the Hilton family but instead stockholders and an equity management company mainly concerned with making as much money as possible for the stockholders regardless how it affects timeshare owners and HHonors members on the hotel side.



HGVC hasn't been owned by the Hilton family for years, if ever.

Kurt


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Good Find, Valdoro in January high open season $ also*



PigsDad said:


> Unfortunately, it doesn't look like that is true.  I just checked for a std 2BR Mon/Tue (2 night) at Valdoro in January, the price came up at *$502*.  Not a holiday week or anything.  The range per night for a std 2BR during Plat season is $145-$290, so it looks like they are pricing that toward the top end of the range.
> 
> Kurt



Wow, that is a good find.  I didn't look at that resort since I don't have any interest in going there, particularly in January.  That makes me feel better to know that they are at least raising some of the prices on accommodations that I don't want.


----------



## Tamaradarann

*If Open Season isn't booked, they will sell to public*



jestme said:


> Sounds like at any time you would want to go, they will raise the prices. Isn't that what the timeshare seasons were already there for? Now, they will probably raise rates for events as well, (like Daytona 500, CES in Vegas, Honolulu marathon, etc.)
> I've noticed almost all of the January Oahu inventory is still there. No one seems to be using any days that I've seen. I think they may have way overreached with pricing this time.
> I've also received HHV hotel specials via email this week, starting at $179. Including a $50 per stay voucher for restaurants and bars, with an hour earlier check in, an hour later check in, maid service daily, and HHonors points, not only for the room, but for meals and drinks as well. Maybe the hotel side of the business in Oahu has better management than HGVC and they understand we may be looking for another option. With my current feelings about Hilton, I will probably look elsewhere anyhow.



If Open Season nights are not booked Hilton will sell the nights to the general public at rates a little higher than open season rates.


----------



## Talent312

PigsDad said:


> HGVC hasn't been owned by the Hilton family for years, if ever.



There was a bit of an overlap... HGVC was founded in 1992.
Baron Hilton retired as CEO in February 1996.
Blackstone paid him ~$1 billion for his 20+ million shares in 2007.


----------



## buzglyd

From a business perspective, it's easy to see why HGVC did this.

In the past, you could get a week during Open Season in many cases for less than the maintenance fee (especially in Hawaii).

This move makes points more valuable than cash. HGVC sells points. Owners will need more points to reserve the high end units.

I own 7000 points at WBR purchased resale. The HGVC makes nothing on that deal. I've never stayed at WBR. I've used cash to stay at KL in the higher point premier units.

I'm not thrilled about this either but I can understand the move. Perhaps the bright side is it will make our weeks more valuable in the resale market with points now becoming more valuable than cash.


----------



## Jason245

buzglyd said:


> From a business perspective, it's easy to see why HGVC did this.
> 
> In the past, you could get a week during Open Season in many cases for less than the maintenance fee (especially in Hawaii).
> 
> This move makes points more valuable than cash. HGVC sells points. Owners will need more points to reserve the high end units.
> 
> I own 7000 points at WBR purchased resale. The HGVC makes nothing on that deal. I've never stayed at WBR. I've used cash to stay at KL in the higher point premier units.
> 
> I'm not thrilled about this either but I can understand the move. Perhaps the bright side is it will make our weeks more valuable in the resale market with points now becoming more valuable than cash.



For someone who bought retail, open season is still a great deal. For resale buyers, not as much of a deal depending on your planned frequency of use..


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## PigsDad

Jason245 said:


> For someone who bought retail, open season is still a great deal. For resale buyers, not as much of a deal depending on your planned frequency of use..


How does the amount you paid for the timeshare in the first place make one bit of difference in determining if Open Season is a deal or not?  Retail and resale buyers have the exact same access to Open Season.  This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, IMO.

Kurt


----------



## Jason245

PigsDad said:


> How does the amount you paid for the timeshare in the first place make one bit of difference in determining if Open Season is a deal or not?  Retail and resale buyers have the exact same access to Open Season.  This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, IMO.
> 
> Kurt



Well.. If you are a retail buyer who will only buy retail, it might still make financial sense to spend $170 a night for a one bedroom for an extra 7 nights a year ($1190) then spending ~$25k + $800 a year in maintenance fees for 3500 points.  (Rental is ~$400/year more than MF, but it would take over 60 years of doing this for breakeven)

A resale buyer would probably get that 3500 points package for $1 and would be in a loss position year number 1 of using open season vs buying more points.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

buzglyd said:


> From a business perspective, it's easy to see why HGVC did this.
> 
> This move makes points more valuable than cash. HGVC sells points. Owners will need more points to reserve the high end units.
> 
> I'm not thrilled about this either but I can understand the move. Perhaps the bright side is it will make our weeks more valuable in the resale market with points now becoming more valuable than cash.



I think that may be the exact effect they are going for.  Between the changes to open season, and new higher point requirements for the fancier rooms, the typical 5000 point package will only go so far.

This is a loss of benefits, but personally it will only have a limited impact, as the short booking window was challenging for me...


----------



## Blues

buzglyd said:


> I'm not thrilled about this either but I can understand the move. Perhaps the bright side is it will make our weeks more valuable in the resale market with points now becoming more valuable than cash.



This makes no sense to me.  We've had an ownership benefit removed - for the 2nd time, counting HHonors.  How can removing a benefit possibly result in a higher market value?

-Bob


----------



## presley

Blues said:


> This makes no sense to me.  We've had an ownership benefit removed - for the 2nd time, counting HHonors.  How can removing a benefit possibly result in a higher market value?
> 
> -Bob



It makes sense from a _business_ perspective.  HGVC only cares about *sales*.  Once you buy, they need you to keep buying.  They do not care if you already bought.  That doesn't help them at all.


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## buzglyd

Two maintenance fees (and the points that come with it) are now cheaper than one maintenance fee and an Open Season vacation. 

Except for Oahu, the 30 day window worked fine for me. I booked the 2br at Kingsland in October for my wedding knowing that there would be plenty of space available. 

I used a ton of Open Season in 2013 and 2014. I probably won't going forward. To me, it was a great way to try out a property I hadn't been to before without committing my points.


----------



## Jason245

buzglyd said:


> Two maintenance fees (and the points that come with it) are now cheaper than one maintenance fee and an Open Season vacation.
> 
> Except for Oahu, the 30 day window worked fine for me. I booked the 2br at Kingsland in October for my wedding knowing that there would be plenty of space available.
> 
> I used a ton of Open Season in 2013 and 2014. I probably won't going forward. To me, it was a great way to try out a property I hadn't been to before without committing my points.



That depends on the price you pay for the points.


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## buzglyd

Jason245 said:


> That depends on the price you pay for the points.




I'm still not following you on that one.


----------



## jestme

presley said:


> It makes sense from a _business_ perspective.  HGVC only cares about *sales*.  Once you buy, they need you to keep buying.  They do not care if you already bought.  That doesn't help them at all.



Ahh yes, but if the reason you bought was because as an owner, you got excellent rates on booking OTHER MEMBER'S rooms they weren't using right now, they should understand that there have lost a major sales benefit. I'm sure that is why they still quote a range for the rates, so the sales people can still try to use that benefit in their sales. 
Members get no additional benefit from trading in a week in Hawaii than a week in Orlando for an RCI or other trade in, but now HGVC certainly wants to charge more for that Hawaii week they received for no additional cost to them. There is no justification for a 300% increase in 13 months other than financial greed and saying to us very loudly, too bad, so sad, there is nothing you can do about it. 
Very simple, very old rule of business. "Make your current customers happy or you will need to get all new ones." Myself, I used to be a 100% committed HGVC owner and customer, as well as a Hilton restaurant and bar attendant, in addition to a Hilton hotel user for business and other personal travel. Now, not so much.


----------



## Jason245

buzglyd said:


> I'm still not following you on that one.



If you pay $25000 for 3500 points, open season still makes financial sense. 

The $400 a week price diference (savings between OS and MF ) takes 60 years to recoup (counting cost of capital, probably even longer).


----------



## Jason245

jestme said:


> Ahh yes, but if the reason you bought was because as an owner, you got excellent rates on booking OTHER MEMBER'S rooms they weren't using right now, they should understand that there have lost a major sales benefit. I'm sure that is why they still quote a range for the rates, so the sales people can still try to use that benefit in their sales.
> Members get no additional benefit from trading in a week in Hawaii than a week in Orlando for an RCI or other trade in, but now HGVC certainly wants to charge more for that Hawaii week they received for no additional cost to them. There is no justification for a 300% increase in 13 months other than financial greed and saying to us very loudly, too bad, so sad, there is nothing you can do about it.
> Very simple, very old rule of business. "Make your current customers happy or you will need to get all new ones." Myself, I used to be a 100% committed HGVC owner and customer, as well as a Hilton restaurant and bar attendant, in addition to a Hilton hotel user for business and other personal travel. Now, not so much.



If your sole reason for purchasing was open season, then you purchased the wrong product for you. Open season is an ancelary benefit. Last time I checked, HGVC was still selling time shares with their own fancy internal exchange structure as the primary benefit. 

As someone who used to spend over 100 nights a year in hotels, I can tell you that most hotel food is average in quality and above average in price. Same goes for drinks. You use those facilities for convinence. Personally, I would cook my own meals of higher quality then anything they could offer at a price that is much more reasonable. Even if I decided to pay, I could get a better deal going to a local restaurant and the quality is generally better.  As for the bar service, usually a similar deal, except you are also overpaying for the privilage of possibly interacting with fellow guests who may or may not be all that interesting.


----------



## alwysonvac

chriskre said:


> I just posted a comment on their FB page and they redirected me to the thread that apparently wasn't deleted after all.
> This is what is on there so far.



I posted another response to that same thread last night. 
I can see my comment on my Facebook timeline but I don't see it on their Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/HiltonGrandVacations/posts/10153373544166978?pnref=story

Here's what I wrote and along with the attachment I provided:

** HGVC’S REASONS FOR THEIR HIGH INCREASE IN OPEN SEASON RATES **

As the vacation ownership inventory at our properties reaches a sold out status, the Open Season availability for units respectively diminishes. Open Season Rental rates remain flexible based on location, season, day of the week and demand. Beginning in 2015, some nightly rates remain similar to those of the previous year, and some increased rates are based on the location, season or day of the week that are historically in higher demand by our Club Members.”

The intention of this update was to offer these accommodations during the 30 day booking window at a percentage-off of what can be found on Hilton.com, which primarily offers the inventory that HGV Owners actually give back to the Club in exchange for other benefits or Partner Perks such as cruises, RV rentals, houseboats, etc. Previous rates were not reflective of the specific marketplace: for example, a 1-bedroom in Orlando does not equate to the same as a 1-bedroom in Honolulu. These recent updates to the Open Season rates chart remedy such discrepancies. 

We will continue to monitor the markets in which we operate HGV resorts, and offer seasonally adjusted Open Season rates in an effort to provide the most desirable offers to our Owners. While we understand this recent change may initially be frustrating, we apologize that our notification did not reach you before the Open Season window opened for January 1.”

*** AN OWNER RESPONSE ***

= = SOLD OUT RESORTS ARE THE REASON FOR HIGHER RATES? = =
HGVC has many older resorts that have been sold out for years and HGVC has managed to offer Open Season rates for all resorts. 
For years, HGVC has experienced high demand at their Hilton Hawaiian Village resorts. Anyone can take a look now at the 9 month Club Season availability at the Hilton Hawaiian Village to see that demand is always high. This is not new information. It’s been this way for years. 

=  = HILTON IS MOVING TO FLOATING RATE BUT OWNERS ARE STUCK ON FIXED RATES = =
HGVC has sold members on the principle that points are points with HGVC. Most Hawaii resort owners paid a higher initial buy-in cost along with high maintenance fees. Hawaii owners receive the same exchange rate as an Orlando owner. Why should Hilton get a higher Open Season rates for a one bedroom in Orlando vs Hawaii? Hawaii resort owners don’t get a higher exchange rate for Club Partner Perks or HHonors points. 

= = EXCHANGE DISPARITY FOR OWNERS GETS WORST IN 2015 = =
Most of the Club Partner Perks are valued at 10 cents per point so a standard two bedroom Platinum week worth 7,000 Club points receives a value of $700 (NOTE: This doesn’t even cover the cost an owner’s annual maintenance fee and the exchange/service fee). The current 2014 Open Season Rate more than covers the cost at $1,065 (weekday rate (5 x $145) + weekday rate (2 X $170)). 

For HHonors, HGVC owners can convert their week for HHonors points but owners don’t get the equivalent value back. For example, a HGVC member that trade their standard two bedroom for HHonors points receives 161,000 HHonors (7,000 HGVC x 23 conversion rate) which is equivalent to 23,000 HHonors points per night. Hilton is requiring at least 60,000 HHonors points per night for a two bedroom at a HGVC resort.


----------



## Jason245

alwysonvac said:


> I posted another response to that same thread last night.
> I can see my comment on my Facebook timeline but I don't see it on their Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/HiltonGrandVacations/posts/10153373544166978?pnref=story
> 
> Here's what I wrote and along with the attachment I provided:
> 
> ** HGVC’S REASONS FOR THEIR HIGH INCREASE IN OPEN SEASON RATES **
> 
> As the vacation ownership inventory at our properties reaches a sold out status, the Open Season availability for units respectively diminishes. Open Season Rental rates remain flexible based on location, season, day of the week and demand. Beginning in 2015, some nightly rates remain similar to those of the previous year, and some increased rates are based on the location, season or day of the week that are historically in higher demand by our Club Members.”
> 
> The intention of this update was to offer these accommodations during the 30 day booking window at a percentage-off of what can be found on Hilton.com, which primarily offers the inventory that HGV Owners actually give back to the Club in exchange for other benefits or Partner Perks such as cruises, RV rentals, houseboats, etc. Previous rates were not reflective of the specific marketplace: for example, a 1-bedroom in Orlando does not equate to the same as a 1-bedroom in Honolulu. These recent updates to the Open Season rates chart remedy such discrepancies.
> 
> We will continue to monitor the markets in which we operate HGV resorts, and offer seasonally adjusted Open Season rates in an effort to provide the most desirable offers to our Owners. While we understand this recent change may initially be frustrating, we apologize that our notification did not reach you before the Open Season window opened for January 1.”
> 
> *** AN OWNER RESPONSE ***
> 
> = = SOLD OUT RESORTS ARE THE REASON FOR HIGHER RATES? = =
> HGVC has many older resorts that have been sold out for years and HGVC has managed to offer Open Season rates for all resorts.
> For years, HGVC has experienced high demand at their Hilton Hawaiian Village resorts. Anyone can take a look now at the 9 month Club Season availability at the Hilton Hawaiian Village to see that demand is always high. This is not new information. It’s been this way for years.
> 
> =  = HILTON IS MOVING TO FLOATING RATE BUT OWNERS ARE STUCK ON FIXED RATES = =
> HGVC has sold members on the principle that points are points with HGVC. Most Hawaii resort owners paid a higher initial buy-in cost along with high maintenance fees. Hawaii owners receive the same exchange rate as an Orlando owner. Why should Hilton get a higher Open Season rates for a one bedroom in Orlando vs Hawaii? Hawaii resort owners don’t get a higher exchange rate for Club Partner Perks or HHonors points.
> 
> = = EXCHANGE DISPARITY FOR OWNERS GETS WORST IN 2015 = =
> Most of the Club Partner Perks are valued at 10 cents per point so a standard two bedroom Platinum week worth 7,000 Club points receives a value of $700 (NOTE: This doesn’t even cover the cost an owner’s annual maintenance fee and the exchange/service fee). The current 2014 Open Season Rate more than covers the cost at $1,065 (weekday rate (5 x $145) + weekday rate (2 X $170)).
> 
> For HHonors, HGVC owners can convert their week for HHonors points but owners don’t get the equivalent value back. For example, a HGVC member that trade their standard two bedroom for HHonors points receives 161,000 HHonors (7,000 HGVC x 23 conversion rate) which is equivalent to 23,000 HHonors points per night. Hilton is requiring at least 60,000 HHonors points per night for a two bedroom at a HGVC resort.



I think you have a logic problem. Your MF goes towards the HOA. the only thing that Hilton truely gets every year is your membership fee, reservation fees and whatever other ancelary fees you pay.  

Hilton is basically a self created exchange company (similar to RCI) that also manages several locations. 

I am not defending their rate increase, but I want to point out the following:

1. Not every week that is used for club partner perks (or not used at all), is rented out to a customer (almost no hotel is at 100% occupancy, and probably fluctuates between 75% and 90% depending on season). 

2. Hilton provides its users a benefit (like all exchange companies do) wheby they will rent out your week for you, and in exchange you get to use your week for  some other partner perk (valued at around 10 cents a point).  The difference between what they give you and what they rent the room out for generally covers their administrative expense related to renting out the room, the risk of having the room go vacant and get no money from the room rental, and maybe some profit. 


You as the consumer need to make a decision as to whether or not those club partner perks are of good value to you as they are the "lazy" option. For a little more work, someone could rent out their own week and probably get more value but it would take more work.. the more customers that take advance of partner perks, the more inventory availability. 

My biggest frustration is this "percentage off". If they could at least commit to a number (eg. 25% off rack rate) I think there would be complaining, but at least it would be something that we can all understand.  For all we know the percentage off is anywhere from 0-50%. Hard numbers would at least make us slightly more comfortable in understanding this new open season....


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Where does Open Season Availability Come From*



Jason245 said:


> Hilton provides its users a benefit (like all exchange companies do) wheby they will rent out your week for you, and in exchange you get to use your week for  some other partner perk (valued at around 10 cents a point).  The difference between what they give you and what they rent the room out for generally covers their administrative expense related to renting out the room, the risk of having the room go vacant and get no money from the room rental, and maybe some profit.
> 
> … the more customers that take advance of partner perks, the more inventory availability.
> 
> My biggest frustration is this "percentage off". If they could at least commit to a number (eg. 25% off rack rate) I think there would be complaining, but at least it would be something that we can all understand.
> 
> Jason, the above quotes from your recent post reminded me of some issues that I brought up in a recent e-mail I sent to Barbara Rinks, Director of Member Services at HGVC.  By the way I do like your thought about 25% off non-member rate(rake rate is usually ridiculous high and nobody pays it) for open season inventory that is created by members using their points for partner perks or Hilton Honors conversion.
> 
> My next point I believe is an important distinction that needs to be clarified for me as well as all members.  My understanding of the Open Season Inventory has always been that it is inventory that was derived from units that were not booked via the Home Week and Club Reservation process.  The enclosed announcement mentions that the Open Season Inventory was primarily given back to the HGVC via Partner Perks.  The treatment of these different types of inventory must be treated different.  The unbooked inventory that was available in the 30-270 day Club Reservation window should continue to be available to owners/members at the current/previous lower rates.  This is HGV Club inventory that members paid the maintenance for and just decided not to book using their points.  They didn't trade that inventory for Hotel Rooms or Partner Perks.  Since we have a points system all our weeks are automatically deposited in the inventory which is fine.  However, it is still the owners/members inventory and should be offered to owners/members at the current/previous rates.  However, inventory that does come from weeks that members deposited to Hilton Honors or to obtain Partner Perks certainly could be offered to members at the higher rates that are in the new rate chart that i would assume will again go into effect April 1.


----------



## Jason245

Tamaradarann said:


> Jason245 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hilton provides its users a benefit (like all exchange companies do) wheby they will rent out your week for you, and in exchange you get to use your week for  some other partner perk (valued at around 10 cents a point).  The difference between what they give you and what they rent the room out for generally covers their administrative expense related to renting out the room, the risk of having the room go vacant and get no money from the room rental, and maybe some profit.
> 
> … the more customers that take advance of partner perks, the more inventory availability.
> 
> My biggest frustration is this "percentage off". If they could at least commit to a number (eg. 25% off rack rate) I think there would be complaining, but at least it would be something that we can all understand.
> 
> Jason, the above quotes from your recent post reminded me of some issues that I brought up in a recent e-mail I sent to Barbara Rinks, Director of Member Services at HGVC.  By the way I do like your thought about 25% off non-member rate(rake rate is usually ridiculous high and nobody pays it) for open season inventory that is created by members using their points for partner perks or Hilton Honors conversion.
> 
> My next point I believe is an important distinction that needs to be clarified for me as well as all members.  My understanding of the Open Season Inventory has always been that it is inventory that was derived from units that were not booked via the Home Week and Club Reservation process.  The enclosed announcement mentions that the Open Season Inventory was primarily given back to the HGVC via Partner Perks.  The treatment of these different types of inventory must be treated different.  The unbooked inventory that was available in the 30-270 day Club Reservation window should continue to be available to owners/members at the current/previous lower rates.  This is HGV Club inventory that members paid the maintenance for and just decided not to book using their points.  They didn't trade that inventory for Hotel Rooms or Partner Perks.  Since we have a points system all our weeks are automatically deposited in the inventory which is fine.  However, it is still the owners/members inventory and should be offered to owners/members at the current/previous rates.  However, inventory that does come from weeks that members deposited to Hilton Honors or to obtain Partner Perks certainly could be offered to members at the higher rates that are in the new rate chart that i would assume will again go into effect April 1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are suggesting a logistical nightmare that would be impossible. Remember that not every point or vacant room gets used. Hilton can not be expected to decide between which points/rooms they have available get rented for less or more.  As such, they need to come to a happy medium. Just remember, that every empty unit you see at a location is money that hilton is not making during open season or non member reservations and is lost with those points going up in the air as dust.
Click to expand...


----------



## jestme

Jason245 said:


> Tamaradarann said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are suggesting a logistical nightmare that would be impossible. Remember that not every point or vacant room gets used. Hilton can not be expected to decide between which points/rooms they have available get rented for less or more.  As such, they need to come to a happy medium. Just remember, that every empty unit you see at a location is money that hilton is not making during open season or non member reservations and is lost with those points going up in the air as dust.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If in fact, the resort is sold out, there is no loss to them at all. The MF's are paid for, and in addition, they do not have any costs to clean, heat, cool, check in, etc the unit when it is empty. Don't forget, there is an exchange fee when you trade in your points, or "rescue" them into the following year. Remember too, that the exchange you are exchanging into, also has vacancy, caused by a member who owns there, who is not using it, and they have paid their MF's for itas well. The exchange fee is simply for their service to make the exchange, they do not pay for the unit you exchanged into.
> The points, by the way don't go up in dust. They can use them next week, or the week after or anytime. For Hilton, they never "expire". Let's not even discuss what happens to our "expired" points.
> The Open Season cash advantage makes them additional money, for rooms that are not booked, and these increases are way out of line. Regardless of where they came from. The cost for renting those rooms is borne by the owners, through MF's, the HOA gets $0 from the rental.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jason245

jestme said:


> Jason245 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The points, by the way don't go up in dust. They can use them next week, or the week after or anytime.
> The Open Season cash advantage makes them additional money, for rooms that are not booked, and these increases are way out of line. Regardless of where they came from. The cost for renting those rooms is borne by the owners, through MF's, the HOA gets $0 from the rental.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For HGVC, any vacant week is a loss and the points that were available in that week that they hold the bag on (either unsold inventory or owner owned and transfered to club perks, or not used) and any possible open season revenue have gone up in dust (unless you have a time machine and can somehow go back in time and get to use that week which was vacant).
> 
> people can "rescue" their points for another year, but the reality is that when those points are used, it eats into the open season availability for the next year.
> 
> Like a hotel, every vacant room at a timeshare is lost revenue that can be used to make up the cost of club perks and/or other costs to rent the week for non HGVC owned weeks, or the costs of MF for HGVC owned weeks.
Click to expand...


----------



## jestme

Jason245 said:


> jestme said:
> 
> 
> 
> For HGVC, any vacant week is a loss and the points that were available in that week that they hold the bag on (either unsold inventory or owner owned and transfered to club perks, or not used) and any possible open season revenue have gone up in dust (unless you have a time machine and can somehow go back in time and get to use that week which was vacant).
> 
> people can "rescue" their points for another year, but the reality is that when those points are used, it eats into the open season availability for the next year.
> 
> Like a hotel, every vacant room at a timeshare is lost revenue that can be used to make up the cost of club perks and/or other costs to rent the week for non HGVC owned weeks, or the costs of MF for HGVC owned weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> You missed one of the main points. There is no cost to Hilton for "club perks". Those are simply exchanges from other timeshare companies Hilton has an agreement with, where the other companies timeshare owners have traded in their week at their own "club perk" place, (a unit for which they have also paid the MF's for), in exchange for a Hilton timeshare. The other timeshare location charges those people an exchange fee to do the exchange, just like Hilton does. They are just acting as an agent for owners, and for exchangers. They have already been well paid for doing that service.
> Hilton isn't left holding the bag, as they can use these points anytime. In fact, they could group the points all into "high demand" time and really rake in the cash.
> Yes, it may be a "lost opportunity" this week, but in high demand locations, that rarely happens. In reality, it isn't any loss at all. The rooms are all bought and paid for anyhow. The only loss is their opportunity to "double dip" and re-rent a unit that someone who owns it isn't using that week.
Click to expand...


----------



## alwysonvac

Jason245 said:


> I think you have a logic problem. Your MF goes towards the HOA. the only thing that Hilton truely gets every year is your membership fee, reservation fees and whatever other ancelary fees you pay.


*Where did I say MFs goes to Hilton?* 

All of the gray shaded column fall under the "points are points" logic. I was trying to highlight the point in reply that _"Most Hawaii resort owners paid a higher initial buy-in cost along with high maintenance fees. Hawaii owners receive the same exchange rate as an Orlando owner. Why should Hilton get a higher Open Season rates for a one bedroom in Orlando vs Hawaii? Hawaii resort owners don’t get a higher exchange rate for Club Partner Perks or HHonors points_. 

LOL, I was debating where to leave the MF column in my table. 
I took it out but decided to put it back in to illustrate the cost difference across various resorts that I own. 



> Hilton is basically a self created exchange company (similar to RCI) that also manages several locations.
> 
> I am not defending their rate increase, but I want to point out the following:
> 
> 1. Not every week that is used for club partner perks (or not used at all), is rented out to a customer (almost no hotel is at 100% occupancy, and probably fluctuates between 75% and 90% depending on season).
> 
> 2. Hilton provides its users a benefit (like all exchange companies do) wheby they will rent out your week for you, and in exchange you get to use your week for  some other partner perk (valued at around 10 cents a point).  The difference between what they give you and what they rent the room out for generally covers their administrative expense related to renting out the room, the risk of having the room go vacant and get no money from the room rental, and maybe some profit.



*LOL.. who's side are you on?* 
Let's also include that not every week is rented via Open Season. Weeks are also rented at Hilton.com at a much higher nightly rate. There are also weeks that go unused by folks that simply pay their maintenance fee and never use it. These weeks go into Hilton's rental bucket.
_NOTE: HGVC Resort Manager at the Hilton Hawaiian Village indicated that they are at 98% occupancy year round. _


*ALSO LET'S GET REAL....HGVC is not hurting if occupancy dips. THEY'RE JUST GREEDY!!*
They get to resell the same units at developer prices over and over again (via ROFR).
They get to sucker folks into financing the deal through them.
They get to collect resort management fees on all of their properties.
Once they make their profit selling their timeshare resort, they make additional profit off the back of owners by renting these rooms at a profit. 



> You as the consumer need to make a decision as to whether or not those club partner perks are of good value to you as they are the "lazy" option. For a little more work, someone could rent out their own week and probably get more value but it would take more work.. the more customers that take advance of partner perks, the more inventory availability.



*My point is that they want to increase Open Season for owners without providing any increase value for owners. *

Of course folks need to make a decision on the value of Club Partner Perks. We've discussed this numerous times on TUG. You're not stating anything new.

HGVC wrote in their response _"As the vacation ownership inventory at our properties reaches a sold out status, the Open Season availability for units respectively diminishes."_. Honestly, I think the main reason they have less rental inventory is because they have lot less owners exchanging their HGVC points for HHonors points. They can easily be fixed if they gave us a fair exchange value.



> My biggest frustration is this "percentage off". If they could at least commit to a number (eg. 25% off rack rate) I think there would be complaining, but at least it would be something that we can all understand.  For all we know the percentage off is anywhere from 0-50%. Hard numbers would at least make us slightly more comfortable in understanding this new open season....



*If they simply want to offer a % off, I rather they just create a HGVC code to use at Hilton.com. *
It doesn't have to be tied to Open Season at all. They can simply offer it anytime they want just to get rid of oversupply of inventory. 

They can offer this in addition to Open Season. I want them to continue to maintain Open Season the same way they've done it in the past for last minute rentals at the current 2014 rates. For me, it's bad enough that HHonors has gotten so bad that we don't use it anymore. The only saving grace was the fact that I can still get low owner rental rate via Open season at HGVC resorts.


----------



## Jason245

jestme said:


> Jason245 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You missed one of the main points. There is no cost to Hilton for "club perks". Those are simply exchanges from other timeshare companies Hilton has an agreement with, where the other companies timeshare owners have traded in their week at their own "club perk" place, (a unit for which they have also paid the MF's for), in exchange for a Hilton timeshare. The other timeshare location charges those people an exchange fee to do the exchange, just like Hilton does. They are just acting as an agent for owners, and for exchangers. They have already been well paid for doing that service.
> Hilton isn't left holding the bag, as they can use these points anytime. In fact, they could group the points all into "high demand" time and really rake in the cash.
> Yes, it may be a "lost opportunity" this week, but in high demand locations, that rarely happens. In reality, it isn't any loss at all. The rooms are all bought and paid for anyhow. The only loss is their opportunity to "double dip" and re-rent a unit that someone who owns it isn't using that week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last time I checked, club perks was for things like cruises, airline tickets, RV rentals, ETC... Hilton has cash outlay for that that they recoup through open season and non member rentals. If the week doesn't rent, they are holding the bag.
> 
> Hilton doesn't get maint fees paid to them, so there is no double dip.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jason245

alwysonvac said:


> *Where did I say MFs goes to Hilton?*
> 
> All of the gray shaded column fall under the "points are points" logic. I was trying to highlight the point in reply that _"Most Hawaii resort owners paid a higher initial buy-in cost along with high maintenance fees. Hawaii owners receive the same exchange rate as an Orlando owner. Why should Hilton get a higher Open Season rates for a one bedroom in Orlando vs Hawaii? Hawaii resort owners don’t get a higher exchange rate for Club Partner Perks or HHonors points_.
> 
> LOL, I was debating where to leave the MF column in my table.
> I took it out but decided to put it back in to illustrate the cost difference across various resorts that I own.
> 
> 
> 
> *LOL.. who's side are you on?*
> Let's also include that not every week is rented via Open Season. Weeks are also rented at Hilton.com at a much higher nightly rate. There are also weeks that go unused by folks that simply pay their maintenance fee and never use it. These weeks go into Hilton's rental bucket.
> _NOTE: HGVC Resort Manager at the Hilton Hawaiian Village indicated that they are at 98% occupancy year round. _
> 
> 
> *ALSO LET'S GET REAL....HGVC is not hurting if occupancy dips. THEY'RE JUST GREEDY!!*
> They get to resell the same units at developer prices over and over again (via ROFR).
> They get to sucker folks into financing the deal through them.
> They get to collect resort management fees on all of their properties.
> Once they make their profit selling their timeshare resort, they make additional profit off the back of owners by renting these rooms at a profit.
> 
> 
> 
> *My point is that they want to increase Open Season for owners without providing any increase value for owners. *
> 
> Of course folks need to make a decision on the value of Club Partner Perks. We've discussed this numerous times on TUG. You're not stating anything new.
> 
> HGVC wrote in their response _"As the vacation ownership inventory at our properties reaches a sold out status, the Open Season availability for units respectively diminishes."_. Honestly, I think the main reason they have less rental inventory is because they have lot less owners exchanging their HGVC points for HHonors points. They can easily be fixed if they gave us a fair exchange value.
> 
> 
> 
> *If they simply want to offer a % off, I rather they just create a HGVC code to use at Hilton.com. *
> It doesn't have to be tied to Open Season at all. They can simply offer it anytime they want just to get rid of oversupply of inventory.
> 
> They can offer this in addition to Open Season. I want them to continue to maintain Open Season the same way they've done it in the past for last minute rentals at the current 2014 rates. For me, it's bad enough that HHonors has gotten so bad that we don't use it anymore. The only saving grace was the fact that I can still get low owner rental rate via Open season at HGVC resorts.




First of all, I hate it when prices go up. At the same time, I am trained as an accountant and business consultant, as a result, whenever companies make decisions that effect price, quality or quantity of service, I always take a step back and try to fully understand what the potential drivers are of that action. 

Hawaii may be booked at 98% occupancy, but what is the occupancy at the florida resorts and Vegas resorts?

As for the whole, financing, sale and ROFR question, that is their primary business and revenue stream. ROFR actually hurts us a lot more then you can possibly imagine when it comes to our ability to negotiate for better open season. For example, Parc Soliel has space to build several more buildings, but they haven't even broken ground on them... why? because they don't need to build the inventory when they can ROFR and resale what they have previously sold. As such, there are fewer rooms, fewer vacancies and it benefits them on the supply/demand equation (especially in Orlando).  

The whole exchanging for HH thing and anything else other than nights at Hilton resorts (and maybe RCI resorts) is a terrible deal for owners and was always a terrible deal for owners.  Using my Hilton amex, I can literally buy 3000 HH points for less than $6 in cost. Even If I owned 7000 points annually and was getting 50 HHNORS points per point and the exchange to HH free, the MF and membership fee would still cost more combined than the $700 it would cost for 350,000 HH points and I get diamond status to boot. 

Open season is a nice ancillary benefit, and I know that it is part of their sales pitch as a way to justify buying a HGVC timeshare (at the presentation I just went to, the sales guy was quoting 2014 rates and saying "Hilton wouldn't raise raise that much, otherwise it would piss off all the members, and why would they do that?" which has me laughing so hard on the inside). The reality is that I hate it that I used to get 42 ounces of orange juice in a box and now I get 38 for the same price. I hate the fact that a package that had 40 rolls of toilet paper a month ago now says 38 rolls plus two bonus (soon to just say 38 rolls).  I think that open season should operate almost like Costco (cost + some set percentage of profit).  The only way to voice your displeasure is with your wallet, that is my plan. I will use HH points to book free hotel rooms instead of using open season. Even At 60k points a night, it would cost me $120 a night, I would get all the benefits of being diamond, and I wouldn't have to pay any tax on the room.


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Open Season Availability Derivation*



Jason245 said:


> Tamaradarann said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are suggesting a logistical nightmare that would be impossible. Remember that not every point or vacant room gets used. Hilton can not be expected to decide between which points/rooms they have available get rented for less or more.  As such, they need to come to a happy medium. Just remember, that every empty unit you see at a location is money that hilton is not making during open season or non member reservations and is lost with those points going up in the air as dust.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I started this thread and I certainly am as angry as anyone that they are raising the open season rates.  I would love HGVC not to raise open season rates at all.  I believe that HGVC is set on raising the open season rates in April.  However, I believe that distinguishing between the origination of open season availability is imperative to owners/members complaint against and HGVC argument in favor of raising rates.
> 
> HGVC in their explanation to TUG members for the rise in Open Season Rates said that the open season availability was derived primarily from member depositing their points for Perks.  Well I am suggesting that I was under the assumption that the open season availability is from the availability that was not reserved during the Club Season Booking Period.  That availability is the owner/members availability that we decided not to reserve.  We should be able to reserve that availability at the previous/current lower open season rates.  Owner/Member points are automatically deposited in the HGVC points system every year, therfore, all of the inventory is owner/members availability.  We are owed that inventory at the previous/current open season rates.
> 
> However, inventory that was created due to member depositing their points to Hilton Honors or Partner Perks is inventory that a member gave up for those other vacation opportunities.  If Hilton wants to rent that inventory on Hilton Honors they should be able.  If they want to let us rent that inventory at a separate Open Season List,than the one I mention above, at higher rates, like they are very likely to do, or thru Hilton Honors at say a 25%discount that is an opportunity that we are not owed and would be welcome.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jason245

Tamaradarann said:


> Jason245 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I started this thread and I certainly am as angry as anyone that they are raising the open season rates.  I would love HGVC not to raise open season rates at all.  I believe that HGVC is set on raising the open season rates in April.  However, I believe that distinguishing between the origination of open season availability is imperative to owners/members complaint against and HGVC argument in favor of raising rates.
> 
> HGVC in their explanation to TUG members for the rise in Open Season Rates said that the open season availability was derived primarily from member depositing their points for Perks.  Well I am suggesting that I was under the assumption that the open season availability is from the availability that was not reserved during the Club Season Booking Period.  That availability is the owner/members availability that we decided not to reserve.  We should be able to reserve that availability at the previous/current lower open season rates.  Owner/Member points are automatically deposited in the HGVC points system every year, therfore, all of the inventory is owner/members availability.  We are owed that inventory at the previous/current open season rates.
> 
> However, inventory that was created due to member depositing their points to Hilton Honors or Partner Perks is inventory that a member gave up for those other vacation opportunities.  If Hilton wants to rent that inventory on Hilton Honors they should be able.  If they want to let us rent that inventory at a separate Open Season List,than the one I mention above, at higher rates, like they are very likely to do, or thru Hilton Honors at say a 25%discount that is an opportunity that we are not owed and would be welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I fully understand your frustration. Next time you are at one of the resorts and they try to get you to go to an update, tell them that you are mad at Hilton for raising the rates. If you are in Orlando and there is someone from corporate on site, ask to speak to them and tell them in person how mad you are.  Complain to your HOA about how Hilton is renting rooms out for significant profit and the owners aren't seeing any true benefits.
> 
> Speak with your wallet and don't book open season.  If demand drys up, prices will drop.
Click to expand...


----------



## alwysonvac

> Hawaii may be booked at 98% occupancy, but what is the occupancy at the florida resorts and Vegas resorts?


Don't know. Don't  care. I was just noting the occupancy level at HHV where they make their biggest bang for the buck.



> As for the whole, financing, sale and ROFR question, that is their primary business and revenue stream. ROFR actually hurts us a lot more then you can possibly imagine when it comes to our ability to negotiate for better open season. For example, Parc Soliel has space to build several more buildings, but they haven't even broken ground on them... why? because they don't need to build the inventory when they can ROFR and resale what they have previously sold. As such, there are fewer rooms, fewer vacancies and it benefits them on the supply/demand equation (especially in Orlando).


They really didn't need to build Parc Soliel. They already had lots of inventory with their two Orlando resorts before Parc Soliel was ever build. Orlando has always been the easiest resorts to book with lots of Open Season availability.



> The whole exchanging for HH thing and anything else other than nights at Hilton resorts (and maybe RCI resorts) is a terrible deal for owners and *was always a terrible deal for owners.*



Yes, it's a terrible deal now and I've always warned folks for years not to buy HGVC for HHonors. 
You haven't been on the TUG boards long enough to see the HHonors deevaluation warning threads from time to time. 

*But it wasn't always a terrible deal.* Here's a little tidbit from my 2009 TUG post. 
At the time Premium was the top hotel/resort category in HHonors.



alwysonvac said:


> *A little Hilton HHonors history...*
> 
> Years ago, HHonors had the following VIP awards
> ALON - Six free nights for two at a Hilton Hawaiian resort for 100K
> TEEN - Six free nights for two at selected HHonors golf resorts in the U.S. 100k
> GLON - Six free nights for two at participating HHonors hotels worldwide for 100K
> GLONP - Six free nights for two at participating Premium HHonors hotels worldwide for 150k GLONP
> NOTE: Back then a lot of the Hilton Properties fell into the GLON bucket. So one could easy book a stay worldwide for 100,000 HHonor points. A one bedroom platinum owner (4800 HGVC Points) could convert their HGVC to HHonors points to get the six night VIP award for 100,000 points.





> Open season is a nice ancillary benefit, and I know that it is part of their sales pitch as a way to justify buying a HGVC timeshare (at the presentation I just went to, the sales guy was quoting 2014 rates and saying "Hilton wouldn't raise raise that much, otherwise it would piss off all the members, and why would they do that?" which has me laughing so hard on the inside). The reality is that I hate it that I used to get 42 ounces of orange juice in a box and now I get 38 for the same price. I hate the fact that a package that had 40 rolls of toilet paper a month ago now says 38 rolls plus two bonus (soon to just say 38 rolls).  I think that open season should operate almost like Costco (cost + some set percentage of profit).



You need to understand that it's more than just a nice ancillary benefit. You can't compare it to the increase price of OJ or Toliet Paper. Some folks spent tens of thousands up front. It's not just as simple to walk away and go to another supplier. Folks were sold on the prepaid vacation idea that include hotel stays, low owner rental rates, exchanging, partner perks, etc. They were basically lied to. Costs are increasing and owners are getting less value in return.



> The only way to voice your displeasure is with your wallet, that is my plan.


Exactly, that is my plan too. However my plan doesn't include any of business going to Hilton.


----------



## Jason245

Interesting side note.

I was reading the Financial statements for the bay club, and they have a 60/40 split on rental income with the developer (not hgvc). in 2013 (the last audited financials) the 40% accounted for 53k in revenue to the association, which is reducing MF costs at the bay club (not a big number, but still anything is better than nothing).

Also, HGVC directly owned 306 unit weeks and had to pay $380k in maint fees. 

Lets assume they have 90% occupancy, and we do simple math. 

306 *90% = 275 weeks. 

$380,000 / 275 weeks = a average cost of $1382 in MF /week paid directly to the bay club. 

1382/7 = average of $197/night required minimum rental rate for break even 

At 100% occupancy (a virtual impossibility) we are talking about an average cost of  $177 a night. 

If you look at the 2014 open season rates you will see that they were probably subsidizing around 10-15% per room just in MF cost (more if you factor the administrative costs).

I know we have already discussed the whole Hilton should subsidize open season as a benefit to members thing, but I wanted to put real numbers on paper based on the audited financials so you could better see how much this was costing Hilton (at just one resort).


----------



## chriskre

Jason245 said:


> Tamaradarann said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are in Orlando and there is someone from corporate on site, ask to speak to them and tell them in person how mad you are.  Complain to your HOA about how Hilton is renting rooms out for significant profit and the owners aren't seeing any true benefits.
> 
> Speak with your wallet and don't book open season.  If demand drys up, prices will drop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No need to voice my opinion about OS any more than I have on their Facebook page.   They don't want to hear it on Facebook nor in person.  :annoyed:
> So I'll be doing as you say and speaking with my wallet.
> 
> I'm glad that I own several timeshares and always have tons of options to use in II and RCI where I can just go slum it at Oasis Lakes or Grande Vista next door to my formerly favorite OS heavy Tuscany home resort.
> I can get a week for the same price HGVC was getting from me for just a few nights.  Now with these new rates they can for sure fuggggedddaboutit.
Click to expand...


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## Jason245

alwysonvac said:


> Don't know. Don't  care. I was just noting the occupancy level at HHV where they make their biggest bang for the buck.



When your inventory is all over the country, one cow doesn't counteract 10 dogs. 



alwysonvac said:


> They really didn't need to build Parc Soliel. They already had lots of inventory with their two Orlando resorts before Parc Soliel was ever build. Orlando has always been the easiest resorts to book with lots of Open Season availability.



More inventory = lower prices = lower open season rates. Economics 101, Supply and demand. 



alwysonvac said:


> Yes, it's a terrible deal now and I've always warned folks for years not to buy HGVC for HHonors.
> You haven't been on the TUG boards long enough to see the HHonors deevaluation warning threads from time to time.



I have been in the points game for over a decade. I have earned and burned millions of points taking first class trips to Europe (back when air france had first class cabins), stayed at the best hotels (westin, intercontinental, Waldorf ETC), at costs of pennies on the dollar. 

There is one consistency with all the programs, benefits decline over time. This is a fact. airlines increase mileage redemption requirements for award fares, hotel chains increase point requirements, etc...

The trick has always been to learn the "loopholes" in the systems and make the best use of them. It takes time research and patience,  but once you learn them, you can take advantage. 




alwysonvac said:


> You need to understand that it's more than just a nice ancillary benefit. You can't compare it to the increase price of OJ or Toliet Paper. Some folks spent tens of thousands up front. It's not just as simple to walk away and go to another supplier. Folks were sold on the prepaid vacation idea that include hotel stays, low owner rental rates, exchanging, partner perks, etc. They were basically lied to. Costs are increasing and owners are getting less value in return.



Timeshares are and always have been a sunk cost. DVC is the best example of this because in 50 years, you have nothing for what was paid. Other companies (HGVC) give you perpetual MF liabilities until the day you die and your descendants refuse to accept the deed. Like annuities, they should only be owned by a select group of people with specific needs that are fulfilled by the primary benefit.  

I hate to say it, but anyone buying a timeshare ,a home, or a car, or any product for thousands of dollars just based on a 2 hour presentation, not reading a single thing about the rules, regulations, uses and not doing any third party research has generally just paid a very expensive tuition for an education to learn how to manage personal finances and personal business affairs.  Asking costs not to increase when the CPI is going up is like asking the tides to never rise.  Why do you think that they came up with new larger points packages. I actually expect them to increase the minimum points requirements for Elite pretty soon if the business trend stays the same (within the next 10 years) as all units at the new resorts will be higher point packages than the current minimum for Elite. 

It sucks, but it is the world we live in.


----------



## alwysonvac

Well, I can see that there just isn't any point in discussing this any further. 
You're willing to take whatever they dish out


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## Jason245

alwysonvac said:


> Well, I can see that there just isn't any point in discussing this any further.
> You're willing to take whatever they dish out



I am actually very pissed...  I live within 3-4 hours of I think over 10 resorts.  I was planning on using open season regularly to supplement my eoy package.  

I now have to revise my travel  planning back to using points at hotels when no hgvc points are available and open season rates don't make sense.  

I realized that there is little I can do to change this other than make a useless complaint to hgvc.  So I need to adapt.  Make sure I take maximum advantage of the remaining loopholes in hgvc program,  enjoy the vacations I get to take with my family,  and if necessary,  stay on the lookout for any significantly below market price deals to increase my points while mitigating my risk of losing significant money on the acquisition costs.


----------



## Beefnot

Jason245 said:


> I am actually very pissed... I live within 3-4 hours of I think over 10 resorts. I was planning on using open season regularly to supplement my eoy package.
> 
> I now have to revise my travel planning back to using points at hotels when no hgvc points are available and open season rates don't make sense.
> 
> I realized that there is little I can do to change this other than make a useless complaint to hgvc. So I need to adapt. Make sure I take maximum advantage of the remaining loopholes in hgvc program, enjoy the vacations I get to take with my family, and if necessary, stay on the lookout for any significantly below market price deals to increase my points while mitigating my risk of losing significant money on the acquisition costs.



 Or you can augment with a cheap Marriott trader and learn the II exchange game.


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## Jason245

Beefnot said:


> Or you can augment with a cheap Marriott trader and learn the II exchange game.



Based on my research and the current vacation pattern of my family, HGVC is probably the best option (although DVC comes in at a close second with the primary difference being price, resort locations in my vicinity, and the type of ownership). We do not take 1 week getaways, and instead take a trip almost every month for a long weekend with about 1-2 big trips a year (currently cruises). 

Given those factors and my understanding of how Marriott works (I have a Aunt and Uncle that own a week in Hilton Head), I don't see the fit (although I know that they are working towards their own points program, and I need to do more research on that).  HGVC also seems less punitive to resale owners than Marriott. I actually have no idea how DVC treats resale, but from my reading, noone can be worse than Hellgate.


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## Talent312

No matter how they rationalize it, HGVC is clearly ripping off the owners.
Any days we don't book w/points they use as an opportunity to put cash in their coffers.

However, I am not wedded to the Hilton brand (sacrilege!), and when planning my trips, I cast a wide net for the best possible deal. Sometimes that's Hilton, but often not. If my $$ go father in a non-HGVC resort so be it.


----------



## alwysonvac

Tamaradarann said:


> My next point I believe is an important distinction that needs to be clarified for me as well as all members.  My understanding of the Open Season Inventory has always been that it is inventory that was derived from units that were not booked via the Home Week and Club Reservation process.  The enclosed announcement mentions that the Open Season Inventory was primarily given back to the HGVC via Partner Perks.  The treatment of these different types of inventory must be treated different.  The unbooked inventory that was available in the 30-270 day Club Reservation window should continue to be available to owners/members at the current/previous lower rates.  This is HGV Club inventory that members paid the maintenance for and just decided not to book using their points.  They didn't trade that inventory for Hotel Rooms or Partner Perks.  Since we have a points system all our weeks are automatically deposited in the inventory which is fine.  However, it is still the owners/members inventory and should be offered to owners/members at the current/previous rates.  However, inventory that does come from weeks that members deposited to Hilton Honors or to obtain Partner Perks certainly could be offered to members at the higher rates that are in the new rate chart that i would assume will again go into effect April 1.



I'm going to suggest this via email to HGVC. I agree that the inventory should be kept separate.

I agree that most of us on TUG assumed that HGVC inventory gained from HHonors and Club Partner Perks were available via Hilton.com website. That's what we told folks for years that came to TUG complaining when they saw no online inventory via HGVC reservation but found inventory via the Hilton.com website. I'm assuming this inventory is earmarked for the Hilton.com early on (not within the 30 day window). Any other leftover inventory at the 30 day mark should remain with HGVC under the old Open Season Rates.

If Hilton.com wants to offer any of their left over inventory to owners then they can do so at their hilton.com via a special HGVC owner discount code (under their discount code section on the Hilton.com reservation page) keeping the two inventories separate.


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Open Season Rates on Club Reservation Inventory*



Talent312 said:


> No matter how they rationalize it, HGVC is clearly ripping off the owners.
> Any days we don't book w/points they use as an opportunity to put cash in their coffers.
> 
> Talent, I totally agree with this statement.  That is why I posted the following as well as sent it to Barbara Rinks, Director of HGVC Services.
> 
> Jason, while I agree we cannot really do anything to directly force HGVC to not raise the Open Season Rates, we can assert that they should be treating availability that was not booked during the Club Reservation Period differently from other availability that HGVC makes available for Open Season reservations.
> 
> HGVC in their explanation to TUG members for the rise in Open Season Rates said that the open season availability was derived primarily from member depositing their points for Perks. Well I am suggesting that I was under the assumption that the open season availability is from the availability that was not reserved during the Club Season Booking Period. That availability is the owner/members availability that we decided not to reserve. We should be able to reserve that availability at the previous/current lower open season rates. Owner/Member points are automatically deposited in the HGVC points system every year, therfore, all of the inventory is owner/members availability. We are owed that inventory at the previous/current open season rates.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward

alwysonvac said:


> Well, I can see that there just isn't any point in discussing this any further.
> You're willing to take whatever they dish out



Or go back to the basics...The original idea behind Timeshares was to buy a week at a place and go back there year after year.

Everything else has been an add-on to attract customers who didn't fit the the basic idea.

For those few of us who fit the original idea, it's still a great choice, especially when you can buy them cheap in the aftermarket. Actually Hilton is now far better than Marriott for traditional owners. (I speak as a Marriott owner.)


----------



## Jason245

Tamaradarann said:


> Talent312 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No matter how they rationalize it, HGVC is clearly ripping off the owners.
> Any days we don't book w/points they use as an opportunity to put cash in their coffers.
> 
> Talent, I totally agree with this statement.  That is why I posted the following as well as sent it to Barbara Rinks, Director of HGVC Services.
> 
> Jason, while I agree we cannot really do anything to directly force HGVC to not raise the Open Season Rates, we can assert that they should be treating availability that was not booked during the Club Reservation Period differently from other availability that HGVC makes available for Open Season reservations.
> 
> HGVC in their explanation to TUG members for the rise in Open Season Rates said that the open season availability was derived primarily from member depositing their points for Perks. Well I am suggesting that I was under the assumption that the open season availability is from the availability that was not reserved during the Club Season Booking Period. That availability is the owner/members availability that we decided not to reserve. We should be able to reserve that availability at the previous/current lower open season rates. Owner/Member points are automatically deposited in the HGVC points system every year, therfore, all of the inventory is owner/members availability. We are owed that inventory at the previous/current open season rates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So answer this question:
> 
> Hilton customer with 7000 points converts 2000 points via a club perk. Should those points be treated as platnum, silver, gold or bronze when using them for open season inventory reservations?
> 
> Who eats the cost of an empty room in southbeach if it isn't rented and assuming the resort is 100% occupancy and that room is the deeded week of the customer who used the perks? Those are points that were in the system that are now used up.
> 
> 
> If you say Hilton should eat all the costs, and owners and members should only get benefits then you are taking an approach that is not feasable for HGVC.  A better alternative option would be for HGVC to build in a mechanism where owners can rent their unused points out to others with perhaps them taking a small comission through the HGVC website.
> 
> Alternativly, maybe some generous HGVC owners can just decide to rent out their units for the old open season rates......
Click to expand...


----------



## Tamaradarann

alwysonvac said:


> I'm going to suggest this via email to HGVC. I agree that the inventory should be kept separate.
> 
> I agree that most of us on TUG assumed that HGVC inventory gained from HHonors and Club Partner Perks were available via Hilton.com website. That's what we told folks for years that came to TUG complaining when they saw no online inventory via HGVC reservation but found inventory via the Hilton.com website. I'm assuming this inventory is earmarked for the Hilton.com early on (not within the 30 day window). Any other leftover inventory at the 30 day mark should remain with HGVC under the old Open Season Rates.
> 
> If Hilton.com wants to offer any of their left over inventory to owners then they can do so at their hilton.com via a special HGVC owner discount code (under their discount code section on the Hilton.com reservation page) keeping the two inventories separate.



Thank you alwysonvac for understanding my point.  Hilton is trying to justify this huge Open Season Increase by saying that owner/members deposited the points to get Perks and they are generously letting us rent some rooms at rates that are slightly reduced off rack rate since there is availability.  I bet that comparatively few owner/members deposit their expensive to buy and maintain Hawaii points for Perks so that the inventory, particularly in Honolulu, does not derive from this method.  The Open Season inventory in Honolulu is from availability that was not reserved during the Club Reservation Period.  That is our(owner/members) inventory that we should be able to reserve at the old/current Open Season Rates.


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Points Deposited for Club Perk*

Jason, this is a quote from your last post.

Hilton customer with 7000 points converts 2000 points via a club perk. Should those points be treated as platnum, silver, gold or bronze when using them for open season inventory reservations?

That is a good question to ask HGVC.  Since an owner/member depositing points for Perks could have numbers of timeshare contracts which resort, season, unit size does HGVC take the availability from?  I would hope HGVC takes it from one of the resorts with loads of availability during a low season so that the highly sought after Club Reservation Inventory is not reduced for owner/member point reservations.  Of course, as I have stated before, if the Open Season inventory is from inventory that was not reserved during the Club Reservation window it is a moot point.


----------



## alwysonvac

Tamaradarann said:


> Thank you alwysonvac for understanding my point.  Hilton is trying to justify this huge Open Season Increase by saying that owner/members deposited the points to get Perks and they are generously letting us rent some rooms at rates that are slightly reduced off rack rate since there is availability.  *I bet that comparatively few owner/members deposit their expensive to buy and maintain Hawaii points for Perks so that the inventory, particularly in Honolulu, does not derive from this method.  The Open Season inventory in Honolulu is from availability that was not reserved during the Club Reservation Period.*  That is our(owner/members) inventory that we should be able to reserve at the old/current Open Season Rates.



Hmmmm....Well, I always thought they took inventory from any HGVC resort (regardless of home resort) since points are points during Club Season. Here's what I wrote in an old 2010 TUG thread regarding renting (see below)....

Keep in mind that Hilton is not going to rent every unit they offer on Hilton.com. So selling some nights at the more expensive HGVC resorts balances out the ones that that no one rents.



> HGVC needs to get back money on all of the alternate options that they offer (hotel stays, HHonors points, travel certificates, cruises, etc), I believe they use a good chunk of these HGVC points to rent HGVC units at one of their most profitable locations within the Hilton Family which is the Hilton Hawaiian Village. They also probably get more bang for the buck with an Oahu rental than a Orlando or Vegas rental which probably helps them during downturns in the travel industry.
> 
> I also believe that HGVC is probably releasing whatever they're unable to rent. Perhaps they could manage the releasing a little better but at least now we know to keep looking.


----------



## jestme

Jason245 said:


> Tamaradarann said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you say Hilton should eat all the costs, and owners and members should only get benefits then you are taking an approach that is not feasable for HGVC.  A better alternative option would be for HGVC to build in a mechanism where owners can rent their unused points out to others with perhaps them taking a small comission through the HGVC website.
> 
> Alternativly, maybe some generous HGVC owners can just decide to rent out their units for the old open season rates......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Renting out unused rooms at a small commission is how the sales person explained Open Season to us. Hilton doesn't pay for any of the exchanges we change into. It would make absolutely no business sense for them to make commitments like that just as a "perk". An RV rental gamble doesn't fit into the business model.
> I'll repeat again, there is no cost to Hilton to Open Season, it is all a pure cash to them.
> BTW, your financial statement evaluation of the Bay Club HOA simply shows that Hilton pays the same MF's as the rest of the owners, and so they should. If they own 20% of the rooms, they should pay 20% of the costs. The thing you did miss, is that Hilton manages the Bay club, and there is a Bay Club set of books, outside of the HGVC owners financial statement, that shows the expense to Hilton from the Bay Club for the management of their resort. That will cover the "administrative costs". Also, the Bay Club revenue from Hilton you see on the statement could also be from Hilton.com, not necessarily an HGVC contribution.
Click to expand...


----------



## alwysonvac

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Or go back to the basics...The original idea behind Timeshares was to buy a week at a place and go back there year after year.
> 
> Everything else has been an add-on to attract customers who didn't fit the the basic idea.
> 
> For those few of us who fit the original idea, it's still a great choice, especially when you can buy them cheap in the aftermarket. Actually Hilton is now far better than Marriott for traditional owners. (I speak as a Marriott owner.)



Yes, I agree if that was the main purpose of your purchase then this particular change has no immediate impact to you. And there are probably lots of HGVC members who care less about this change since they never used Open Season and never plan to. 

But keep in mind that Hilton sold folks on various owner benefits (not on the basic original idea of timeshares). As a result, various owners bought for various reasons. Hilton sold them on the idea that they can travel anywhere/anytime via the HGVC club resorts, Hilton hotels/resorts worldwide, timeshare exchanges, lower open season rates for owners, etc.

As these extra owner benefits continue to get stripped and Annual Maintenance Fees, Reservation Fees, Club Dues, Exchanging fee, etc continue to rise, more and more folks are going see no benefit in owning and abandon their timeshare (basically stop paying their maintenance fee) which will impact the HOA and all owners. _NOTE: Keep in mind that timeshares with high maintenance fees are harder to get rid of and HGVC ROFR only exist if there is demand_

As you can see by my username, I'm one of those TUG members who owns several different timeshare. Each one in my timeshare portfolio serves a purpose. My primary purpose for buying HGVC was for HHV stays. However I also had several HHonors exchanges when the point requirements were favorable and I also like the open season options for my visits to Hawaii, Orlando and Miami when I need an extra night here and there. With the Open Season Rental Rates increasing and resort maintenance issues increasing, I'm not feeling the love.


----------



## Jason245

Tamaradarann said:


> Jason, this is a quote from your last post.
> 
> Hilton customer with 7000 points converts 2000 points via a club perk. Should those points be treated as platnum, silver, gold or bronze when using them for open season inventory reservations?
> 
> That is a good question to ask HGVC.  Since an owner/member depositing points for Perks could have numbers of timeshare contracts which resort, season, unit size does HGVC take the availability from?  I would hope HGVC takes it from one of the resorts with loads of availability during a low season so that the highly sought after Club Reservation Inventory is not reduced for owner/member point reservations.  Of course, as I have stated before, if the Open Season inventory is from inventory that was not reserved during the Club Reservation window it is a moot point.




The reality is:
Open season is from inventory that was not reserved during the club reservation window for a variatiy of reasons probably primarily:

1. Transfers to Club perks or HH.
2. The "rescue" of points for an additional year by people.
3.  Hilton owned inventory

What people keep forgetting is that if you rescue your points, you will are taking a week or portion thereof from next year that could have been used by HGVC as either open season, a rental, or by a club member. 

When you borrow points from next year, you are doing a similar thing but in inverse. 

From my understanding (reviewing all the information I can), the system works as below:

There are a set number of points in the entire HGVC system (for simplicity sakes, I am going to say 1 Million points of time/year). 

Of that one million points, HGVC owns in unsold inventory a portion (lets say, 300, 000 points which they are required to pay maint fee on. 

During the year, customers transfer points to club partner perks or HHonors which cost real money for HGVC to provide (Yes, HH costs HGVC money, they are buying those points from Hilton hotels). Lets say for simplicity, that the cost is $0.10 per point. Lets also say that 100,000 points are used for this purpose (so HGVC pays $10,000 for owner benefits outside of the HGVC product mix for 100,000 points being added to their pool). 

Now HGVC has a pool of 400,000 points of their inventory (part of which they paid cash for to owners who paid their maint fee). 

They allow people to borrow from next year points and bring to current year and also allow people to rescure points from current year for future year. Lets assume that people borrow 100,000 points (free) and rescue 50,000 points (they generate some revenue from this). 

This leaves them with 400,000 points - 100,000 non owner owned points borrowed  + 50,000 points pushed into next year = 350,000 points of flexability in the system. 

Lets assume that all rCI reservations outbound = RCI inbound so that nets to nothing. 

Hilton also issues bonus points out to retail buyers like candy. Lets assume for my example that they issue 100,000 in bonus points or VIP packages etc and sell 50,000 in points to new customers. 

Remaining pot of points in the HGVC controlled points bucket is 350,000 - 100,000 - 50,000 = 200,000 points.

Hilton also Spends money either exercising ROFR or through construction to add more points under its control (lets say they do that for 50,000 points)

So at the end of the day they end up with 250,000 points in the HGVC controlled bucket (they are just like you and me, an owner of points in the HGVC system). 

Lets also (for simplicity sake) assume that all the owners use 100% of the points that are not traded or used for clubperks. If the points arn't used in current year they will be either rescued or traded into RCI (the logical thing that owners would do for any material amount of points). 

HGVC now looks for ways to monitize the points similar to the way that many people here look to do it only they have more limitations (they can not borrow points, rescue points, and only have access to inventory that isn't reserved by club members [eg. they arn't holding on to the "hot weeks" to try to rent them for significant profit like some of the exchanges have been accused of doing].  

Their process is probably something like this:

30 day window: 

Unreserved inventory is immediatly marketed through all available channels. 

If reserved with points by a member = No revenue, and all the marketing expense and administrative expense posting the night on Hilton.Com and Open season goes to waste. 

If rented by a non-member - HGVC decreases their controlled points for that time interval and they get the cash for this and they get the highest cash in for that rate but also have to incure additional expenses (they need to pay an expense for the HH earned by the customer , probably have to pay the hilton unit and/or third party reservation site some type of comission, have to provide status benefits etc, etc...).  This is probably the most expensive type of customer to rent to. 

If rented to a HGVC member (the ideal cash customer) - HGVC decreases their points and gets cash. These customers are the least expensive to serve as they don't get HH points, the marketing is free, there is no comission to be paid on the room reservation etc.

If the room is not rented (worst case scenario) - Hilton loses the points assoiated from that week in their bucket and has paid either MF or cash for something that they received no benefit from. 

Does this add the clarity as to how this process works? The non member rate might seem high, but the costs associate with it (commission (don't know the current rates, but I assume it is somewhere in range of 10%, HH point purchase to cover the rental, and additional benefits, as well as the extra houskeeping cost that they need to pay the HOA to cover for hotel style guests who expect daily housekeeping), might make that $400 room only return $200 cash in HGVC  pocket.  

This post might also help some on the board understanding that HGVC buys the HH points from Hilton hotels at some rate per point. If Hilton makes the points worth less benefit but still charges the same rate to HGVC per point and HGVC is only willing to give 10 cents per points in cash, the 25/1 ratio stays the same. If Hilton decreases the cost per point by 50%, all of a sudden you will see HGVC increase the ratio to 50/1. 

Again, the above is my high level understanding of how HGVC system works based on the information I have been able to gather (phone reps and PR people are paid to present things in simplified ways that can more or less get you off their back ASAP, explaining the above to every single customer who asks would take hours). 

If there is something I am missing, or some type of document or understanding I am confused about, please feel free to point it out.


----------



## Jason245

jestme said:


> Jason245 said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, your financial statement evaluation of the Bay Club HOA simply shows that Hilton pays the same MF's as the rest of the owners, and so they should. If they own 20% of the rooms, they should pay 20% of the costs. The thing you did miss, is that Hilton manages the Bay club, and there is a Bay Club set of books, outside of the HGVC owners financial statement, that shows the expense to Hilton from the Bay Club for the management of their resort. That will cover the "administrative costs". Also, the Bay Club revenue from Hilton you see on the statement could also be from Hilton.com, not necessarily an HGVC contribution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, as per the notes of the financial statements, the only revenue that is received from HGVC is maint fees. There is nothing else (check out the related party transaction notes if you are confused).
> 
> Bay club pays HGVC a management fee, but HGVC in turn pays employees to manage the resort (that management fee covers payroll and salaries of everyone from the bellhop at the front desk to the person who answers the phone)
> 
> Of the $4 Million that was paid to hilton by the bay club in 2013, $3 Million was paid for payroll and salaries and financial services for onsite activites. $1 Million was paid as a management fee to Hilton, which is used to cover expenses related to HGVC as a whole for G&A related activities and IT activities (maintaining web site, paying for employee salaries for employees that benefit all HGVC properties such as procurment (negotiating discounted pricing with shared vendors), ).  This is an outsourced service fee and is probably less expensive then self managing.
> 
> HGVC management services act as an independent business unit and has to be profitable as well. That being said, the audited financial statements provide pretty clear visibility into the bay club, provide factual evidence that no revenue is received by the bay club if Hilton rents out units, and HGVC is forced to eat the cost of any points not rented by them that are related to those units.
> 
> I highly recommend you read the financials for properties you own, as an owner it is your right to see them, as a TUGGER, it is your responsibility to understand them so that you can know that those MF you keep paying (your money) are being used appropriatly and in a fiscally responsibile way (audited financial statements only give you information of what your HOA did, and do not express any opinion on whether or not the HOA is operating in a way you view as fiscally responsibile, if you don't understand something, it is your right to ask the board to explain to you what that item means, and why it is justifiable).
Click to expand...


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## alwysonvac

The latest Facebook response - https://www.facebook.com/HiltonGrandVacations/posts/10153373544166978?pnref=story



> _*Hilton Grand Vacations *
> Your feedback is so appreciated, and we want to assure you that you’ve been heard ... and we’ve taken action. As we regrettably did not provide ample notice regarding changes to the Open Season fee structure for the year ahead, we are committed to easing any inconvenience by rolling back the rates to the 2014 levels throughout the first quarter of 2015.
> 
> · We will be notifying you of the updated fee structure to be implemented as of the second quarter of 2015.
> · For those who had confirmed Open Season reservations at the former rates, please be assured the rate will be adjusted and your refund will be acknowledged at check-in (as applicable).
> 
> We sincerely appreciate your loyalty to Hilton Grand Vacations, and extend our best wishes for a wonderful holiday season._


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## chriskre

alwysonvac said:


> Hilton Grand Vacations
> Your feedback is so appreciated, and we want to assure you that you’ve been heard ... and we’ve taken action. As we regrettably did not provide ample notice regarding changes to the Open Season fee structure for the year ahead, we are committed to easing any inconvenience by rolling back the rates to the 2014 levels throughout the first quarter of 2015.
> 
> · We will be notifying you of the updated fee structure to be implemented as of the second quarter of 2015.
> · For those who had confirmed Open Season reservations at the former rates, please be assured the rate will be adjusted and your refund will be acknowledged at check-in (as applicable).
> 
> We sincerely appreciate your loyalty to Hilton Grand Vacations, and extend our best wishes for a wonderful holiday season.



I'm so sad to see this perk diminishing.
I have yet to use my points in Orlando yet have done many stays on OS.
I was one of their biggest cheerleaders, now I'm disappointed that I have to look for other options.  
Luckily I am a lowly EOY owner and can still get use out of this ownership using it at the SW FL affiliates 
so all is not lost, but I certainly don't see any reason to add on anymore points, that's for sure.  :annoyed:


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## Tamaradarann

*Derivation of Open Season Inventory*

Jason, this is a quote from your recent post:

The reality is:
Open season is from inventory that was not reserved during the club reservation window for a variatiy of reasons probably primarily:

1. Transfers to Club perks or HH.
2. The "rescue" of points for an additional year by people.
3. Hilton owned inventory

The reason that inventory that was not reserved during the Club Reservation Window was that owner/members did not choose to use their points to reserve that inventory.  Nothing else.  That is owner/members inventory.  On day 31 that inventory was reservable by owner/members only using points.  I am suggesting that that inventory should remain owner/members inventory on day 30 and owner/members should be able to reserve that inventory at the old/current lower cash rates during Open Season.  

The 3 reasons that you give are the possible derivation of additional open season inventory.  I am suggesting that if Hilton wants to charge higher rates for owner/members to reserve that inventory it could be justified.  Since it is inventory that thru owner/members depositing action or Hilton Management action became available.  Hilton is under no obligation to offer that inventory to HGVC owner/members.  They could offer that inventory on Hilton Honors for rack rates.  Offering it to owner/members at a reduced rate is a benefit.


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## Jason245

Tamaradarann said:


> Jason, this is a quote from your recent post:
> 
> That is owner/members inventory.  On day 31 that inventory was reservable by owner/members only using points.  I am suggesting that that inventory should remain owner/members inventory on day 30





I think this is the primary disconnect you and I are having. 

my understanding of HGVC is that there is no "owner/member" reserved inventory. It is an exchange system with a giant pile of points. As soon as you enroll and want to use anything other than your deeded week, you are using an exchange with multiple parties owning points (HGVC being the developer of thousands of time intervals, the owner of the exchange, and the one who purchases points from people to provide club perks is the largest individual point owner). 

I guess the question that we need to clarify, is do you view HGVC as an owner and participant on the exchange or simply the entity that facilitates exchanges?

If you view them as only a facilitator, then I fully understand your frustration. 

The reality is very different, HGVC is not a facilitator, they are a participant, but a participant who ties their own hands by not reserving "hot weeks" and always willing to give up one of their own reservations for a points reservation by another member.  By that same token, they attempt to monetize whatever they have left over as best they can by renting rooms out to other members or renting them out to third parties. 

Now put yourself in HGVC shoes
If you pay MF of $1,000/year on your week, would you be willing to rent it to a friend for $700? 

Should Hilton rent out these room to members at a loss? Breakeven? or a small profit?

HGVC is currently renting out the rooms to members at a loss, and you are frustrated that they are not willing to continue to absorb those loses. 

If HGVC raised prices by $1, you would be mad.
If HGVC raised prices to break even, you would be mad.
If HGVC raised price to break even + a small profit, you would be mad.

You are rightfully mad that HGVC is making sound business decisions that determent you to the benefit of the owners of Hilton (who will now lose less money on the open season). 

I have a whole list of price items that make me mad. Airlines no longer give food, almost all of them charge to check bags, pretty soon I will have to pump quarters into the john door to take a leak in privacy onboard, and for some reason the guy sitting next to me paid 10-20% less.

My cell phone company now wants me to "finance" a new cell phone instead of giving me a 2 year contract and a discounted phone price. 

I used to get more juice in my carton, more cereal in my box, more ice cream in my container,  and more toilet paper in a packet, and they kept the prices the same.  When they made those decisions, companies used the excuse that expenses had gone up because of gas prices, but now that prices have dropped, I don't see the size of my packages increasing to old levels or the prices of my groceries going down.

There is a reprieve for 3 months in which HGVC will more publically start discussing the changes to the open season program rather than sneaking it in like the less juice in the carton, but in the scheme of things, that is meaningless.  I would be much happier if HGVC came up with a transparent way that open season was calculated and instead of annually changing the rates or coming up with confusing ranges, have a solid meathodology that we can all understand and that stays consistent over time (E.G., it rises with CPI, or is the publically available rental rate - X percent)


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## Beefnot

Jason245 said:


> I think this is the primary disconnect you and I are having.
> 
> my understanding of HGVC is that there is no "owner/member" reserved inventory. It is an exchange system with a giant pile of points. As soon as you enroll and want to use anything other than your deeded week, you are using an exchange with multiple parties owning points (HGVC being the developer of thousands of time intervals, the owner of the exchange, and the one who purchases points from people to provide club perks is the largest individual point owner).



Why would HGVC need to own any other points other than points that are still unsold? The total amount of points in the points system must equal the underlying deeded weeks, correct? 

If HGVC had theoretically sold all weeks, then the only points they "own" are the points that they "purchased" (read: control) from the owner in return for perks that only cost HGVC a fraction of the points they are controlling in return. HGVC is not paying maintenance fees on those owner points that have been cashed in--the owner is--so the only cost to HGVC for those points is the cost of the perks they provided in return. I liken it to an exchange company but points being the currency rather than an undivided week. II or RCI do not own Or pay maintenance fees on my deposited weeks, and any revenue they make in excess of the cost to provide the value of the services I "paid" for with the deposit of my week (e.g. timeshare exchange, cruise, etc.) is profit. The breakeven would be far lower than the maintenance fees underlying the deposit. So yes, I would look at HGVC as fundamentally the facilitator.

If we add in as-yet unsold HGVC points into the mix for open season, then this is where the maintenance fee cost borne by HGVC might come into play. However, the breakeven cost to HGVC would be the MF cost of unsold weeks plus the cost of the perks provided to owners who deposited points, divided by the total unsold points and club perk points. That breakeven cost would presumably be lower than simply the MFs of unsold inventory. Although in this scenario, it would appear that HGVC is seeking for owners to subsidize all of their unsold inventory, which one might argue is not the owners' problem, I dunno.


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## Tamaradarann

*HGVC is both a Facilitator and an Owner*

Jason,

I view HGVC as both a Facilitator and an Owner. 

They are a Facilitator in placing weeks in the system at the resorts at the 12 month mark.  During the home week reservation period owners at that resort during that season can reserved a unit of the kind they own.  At the 9 month mark that inventory is available to all owner/members during the Club Reservation Period.  At the 30 day mark any unreserved nights become part of the Open Season Inventory.  That is the inventory that I have been stressing should be available to owner/members at the old/current lower Open Season Rates.

They are an Owner of the unsold weeks, and nights that are represented by owner/members depositing points for Hilton Honors or Perks are HGVC's are theirs to control to do with as they see fit.  They can rent them out on Hilton Honors or they can let owner/members at whatever rate they fell is appropriate.


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## USDave

*Crucial change to HGVC - We must take action, stand together and be heard*

Hi,

Whether you have never used the Open season, occasionally or a lot. It is crucial that we are not passive to this change. We all expect from time to time that prices will increase we see that with our dues but to double the open season rates is unacceptable and disgraceful. It demonstrates a view that Hilton has of its customers and one that if we let ride on this occasion will soon creep into other areas, yearly dues, food, drinks. 

I read many posts voicing disappointment about the change so let's do something about it! 

I am sure like lots of us our jobs involve dealing with customers who on earth would think doubling prices from one year to the next was ok needs their head examining. They claim it is to be inline with other hotels in the area, I don't buy that even the Waldorf doesn't charge as much admittedly maybe with a smaller room, but the current system has also minimised empty rooms too for Hilton. 

I rang up HGVC to get an understanding of the new system and wanted to know how to understand the variances. For example in Gold season a 2 bed apartment could cost another between $135 and $270 but how did I know what this was based on? occupancy? Time of year? They couldn't give me send answer and the advisor told me they didn't know themselves but suggested I email in. If they don't know how are we supposed too!

So not only is the increase insulting to us all but it is badly thought out without any real logic applied to how any why it is done. We now have no certainty of what the rates will be and that was the fundamental aspect of the system. 

*CALL TO ACTION* Please take 5 minutes to email input@hgvc.com voicing your disapproval in the change in the strongest possible terms. 5 voices may be brushed aside but 500 would be much harder to do and if possible post those comments to the Facebook page and Twitter account of HGVC. They have so far ignored many of the posts and hope it will go away. Let's make sure it doesn't.


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Make yourself heard at HGVC*



USDave said:


> Hi,
> 
> Whether you have never used the Open season, occasionally or a lot. It is crucial that we are not passive to this change. We all expect from time to time that prices will increase we see that with our dues but to double the open season rates is unacceptable and disgraceful. It demonstrates a view that Hilton has of its customers and one that if we let ride on this occasion will soon creep into other areas, yearly dues, food, drinks.
> 
> I read many posts voicing disappointment about the change so let's do something about it!
> 
> I am sure like lots of us our jobs involve dealing with customers who on earth would think doubling prices from one year to the next was ok needs their head examining. They claim it is to be inline with other hotels in the area, I don't buy that even the Waldorf doesn't charge as much admittedly maybe with a smaller room, but the current system has also minimised empty rooms too for Hilton.
> 
> I rang up HGVC to get an understanding of the new system and wanted to know how to understand the variances. For example in Gold season a 2 bed apartment could cost another between $135 and $270 but how did I know what this was based on? occupancy? Time of year? They couldn't give me send answer and the advisor told me they didn't know themselves but suggested I email in. If they don't know how are we supposed too!
> 
> So not only is the increase insulting to us all but it is badly thought out without any real logic applied to how any why it is done. We now have no certainty of what the rates will be and that was the fundamental aspect of the system.
> 
> *CALL TO ACTION* Please take 5 minutes to email input@hgvc.com voicing your disapproval in the change in the strongest possible terms. 5 voices may be brushed aside but 500 would be much harder to do and if possible post those comments to the Facebook page and Twitter account of HGVC. They have so far ignored many of the posts and hope it will go away. Let's make sure it doesn't.




I totally agree with this approach. I have posted a number of the e-mails that I have sent. I got the name of Barbara Rinks, BRinks@hgvc.com the Director of HGVC services. She seems to receptive to the notes that I have sent and passing the notes to upper management, the Vice President of Member Services to whom she reports. I think that we need to get to the bottom of the derivation of the Open Season availability particularly in Honolulu which is a very highly sought after location and the one that I believe they will be raising the Open Season rates the most. The post that HGVC sent out made it sound like the availability was from members depositing points for Partner Perks. That is certainly different than what I was under the assumption the derivation of the Open Season availability, Club Reservation availability that wasn't reserved by owner/members using their points.
Tamaradarann is offline


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## bogey21

I sold my 4 Marriott Weeks years ago when they started changing things to my detriment.  After trading into a number of HGVC resorts I almost bought.  Now I'm glad I didn't.  Apparently it is not a question whether the chains will change things to the detriment of Owners, rather it is when.  They all seem to do it when it suits them.

George


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## Ralph Sir Edward

alwysonvac said:


> Yes, I agree if that was the main purpose of your purchase then this particular change has no immediate impact to you. And there are probably lots of HGVC members who care less about this change since they never used Open Season and never plan to.
> 
> But keep in mind that Hilton sold folks on various owner benefits (not on the basic original idea of timeshares). As a result, various owners bought for various reasons. Hilton sold them on the idea that they can travel anywhere/anytime via the HGVC club resorts, Hilton hotels/resorts worldwide, timeshare exchanges, lower open season rates for owners, etc.
> 
> As these extra owner benefits continue to get stripped and Annual Maintenance Fees, Reservation Fees, Club Dues, Exchanging fee, etc continue to rise, more and more folks are going see no benefit in owning and abandon their timeshare (basically stop paying their maintenance fee) which will impact the HOA and all owners. _NOTE: Keep in mind that timeshares with high maintenance fees are harder to get rid of and HGVC ROFR only exist if there is demand_
> 
> As you can see by my username, I'm one of those TUG members who owns several different timeshare. Each one in my timeshare portfolio serves a purpose. My primary purpose for buying HGVC was for HHV stays. However I also had several HHonors exchanges when the point requirements were favorable and I also like the open season options for my visits to Hawaii, Orlando and Miami when I need an extra night here and there. With the Open Season Rental Rates increasing and resort maintenance issues increasing, I'm not feeling the love.



There's far less love at Marriott...

1. Marriott has been devaluing the equivalent of HHonors for nearly a decade, year after year. (What would have gotten you a week at the beginning_ might _get you 2 days, today, usually less.)

2. The skim. When Marriott created it's Vacation Club point system, you could enroll your week into the system. Only your contribution had 15-20% of your purchasing power skimmed off. For example, if you convert to points in the Hilton system, you could (theoretically) buy back the same week at the same resort for the amount of points you got. Get 7,000 points - buy at 7000 points. At Marriott, you can only buy back between 5 and 6 days for what you put in, and that was from day 1.

3. With Hilton, if you buy an aftermarket week, you can join the points system, for a modest fee. With Marriott, you can't. The only way to get in is to buy it through Marriott and buy a package of points, to boot. And the joining fee now is $2325. If you buy non-Marriott aftermarket, you're just out of luck...

4. With Marriott's point system, you are required to pay 1/6 of the retail price (currently) as a fee to Marriott, just for the priviledge of transferring the points to a new owner. (Straght progit to Marriott Vacation Club's bottom line profit, for doing nothing. There are separate fees for the actual transfer...)

5. Hilton protects the original owners of a resort, by giving them a early booking period for those owners at that resort only. If I own at Bay Club, for example, I get three months to book when my only competition is from other Bay Club Owners, who have an eligible non-booked week during the exclusive booking period. That gives me a reason to buy there and pay the higher maintenance fees.

With Marriott, there is no exclusive booking period. Their Vacaton Club grabs their weeks at exactly the same time as existing owners, and can (and does!) front run existing owners for prime weeks. Existing owners became second-class citizens under their new rules.

6. FInally, on an apples-to-apples basis, Hilton mantenance fees run around 20% less than Marriott, seem to have done so or quite a while.

Now I will say that probably Marriott's mantenance is better, but I haven't bounced around enough to be certain. And I can't speak about the other competitors.

I understand the anger about losing cherished cheap perks. But it could be a lot worse...

(As you may gather, I will be exiting the Marriott system later next year....)


----------



## USDave

*Don't lose focus*

Things could always be worse! That is exactly how corporation's get away with unfair changes. That is how life is....things could always be worse so that is why context is always crucial 

Marriot may well choose to exploit customers in a greater manner than Hilton but that doesn't mean it is ok for either. Hilton has often shown itself to be a decent company that values customer opinion. 

So we shouldn't "thank our lucky stars" that Marriot has changed the benefits even more but should halt Hilton trying to make a fundamental change to the system.

Don't lose focus make sure we let Hilton know we are not happy with the change. Facebook, Twitter and input@hgvc.com


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## alwysonvac

bogey21 said:


> I sold my 4 Marriott Weeks years ago when they started changing things to my detriment.  After trading into a number of HGVC resorts I almost bought.  Now I'm glad I didn't.  *Apparently it is not a question whether the chains will change things to the detriment of Owners, rather it is when.  They all seem to do it when it suits them*.
> 
> George



Yeah, that's how I'm feeling these days.

My hubby laughs as I walk around the house singing Ken Rogers' line from the "The Gambler" 
_You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run
_​


----------



## alwysonvac

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> There's far less love at Marriott...
> 
> 1. Marriott has been devaluing the equivalent of HHonors for nearly a decade, year after year. (What would have gotten you a week at the beginning_ might _get you 2 days, today, usually less.)
> 
> 2. The skim. When Marriott created it's Vacation Club point system, you could enroll your week into the system. Only your contribution had 15-20% of your purchasing power skimmed off. For example, if you convert to points in the Hilton system, you could (theoretically) buy back the same week at the same resort for the amount of points you got. Get 7,000 points - buy at 7000 points. At Marriott, you can only buy back between 5 and 6 days for what you put in, and that was from day 1.
> 
> 3. With Hilton, if you buy an aftermarket week, you can join the points system, for a modest fee. With Marriott, you can't. The only way to get in is to buy it through Marriott and buy a package of points, to boot. And the joining fee now is $2325. If you buy non-Marriott aftermarket, you're just out of luck...
> 
> 4. With Marriott's point system, you are required to pay 1/6 of the retail price (currently) as a fee to Marriott, just for the priviledge of transferring the points to a new owner. (Straght progit to Marriott Vacation Club's bottom line profit, for doing nothing. There are separate fees for the actual transfer...)
> 
> 5. Hilton protects the original owners of a resort, by giving them a early booking period for those owners at that resort only. If I own at Bay Club, for example, I get three months to book when my only competition is from other Bay Club Owners, who have an eligible non-booked week during the exclusive booking period. That gives me a reason to buy there and pay the higher maintenance fees.
> 
> With Marriott, there is no exclusive booking period. Their Vacaton Club grabs their weeks at exactly the same time as existing owners, and can (and does!) front run existing owners for prime weeks. Existing owners became second-class citizens under their new rules.
> 
> 6. FInally, on an apples-to-apples basis, Hilton maintenance fees run around 20% less than Marriott, seem to have done so or quite a while.
> 
> Now I will say that probably Marriott's mantenance is better, but I haven't bounced around enough to be certain. And I can't speak about the other competitors.
> 
> I understand the anger about losing cherished cheap perks. But it could be a lot worse...
> 
> (As you may gather, I will be exiting the Marriott system later next year....)



Yes, there are reasons why you don't see Marriott on the list of timeshares that I own even before they started their points program 
But just keep in mind each system has their PROs and CONs and it's not all rosy over in the Hilton camp.


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## Tamaradarann

*I Agree LETS STAY FOCUSED*



Ralph Sir Edward said:


> There's far less love at Marriott...
> 
> 1. Marriott has been devaluing the equivalent of HHonors for nearly a decade, year after year. (What would have gotten you a week at the beginning_ might _get you 2 days, today, usually less.)
> 
> 2. The skim. When Marriott created it's Vacation Club point system, you could enroll your week into the system. Only your contribution had 15-20% of your purchasing power skimmed off. For example, if you convert to points in the Hilton system, you could (theoretically) buy back the same week at the same resort for the amount of points you got. Get 7,000 points - buy at 7000 points. At Marriott, you can only buy back between 5 and 6 days for what you put in, and that was from day 1.
> 
> 3. With Hilton, if you buy an aftermarket week, you can join the points system, for a modest fee. With Marriott, you can't. The only way to get in is to buy it through Marriott and buy a package of points, to boot. And the joining fee now is $2325. If you buy non-Marriott aftermarket, you're just out of luck...
> 
> 4. With Marriott's point system, you are required to pay 1/6 of the retail price (currently) as a fee to Marriott, just for the priviledge of transferring the points to a new owner. (Straght progit to Marriott Vacation Club's bottom line profit, for doing nothing. There are separate fees for the actual transfer...)
> 
> 5. Hilton protects the original owners of a resort, by giving them a early booking period for those owners at that resort only. If I own at Bay Club, for example, I get three months to book when my only competition is from other Bay Club Owners, who have an eligible non-booked week during the exclusive booking period. That gives me a reason to buy there and pay the higher maintenance fees.
> 
> With Marriott, there is no exclusive booking period. Their Vacaton Club grabs their weeks at exactly the same time as existing owners, and can (and does!) front run existing owners for prime weeks. Existing owners became second-class citizens under their new rules.
> 
> 6. FInally, on an apples-to-apples basis, Hilton mantenance fees run around 20% less than Marriott, seem to have done so or quite a while.
> 
> Now I will say that probably Marriott's mantenance is better, but I haven't bounced around enough to be certain. And I can't speak about the other competitors.
> 
> I understand the anger about losing cherished cheap perks. But it could be a lot worse...
> 
> (As you may gather, I will be exiting the Marriott system later next year....)



I started this thread and want to keep the issue the Open Season Rates at HGVC and the FOCUS on that discussion.  What other companies do is there business and their owners business.  This Discussion Group is for HGVC and the issue thread is HGVC raising the Open Season Rates.  HGVC has reduced our benefits and we need to complain and request that they modify their initial plan to be more owner/member friendly.


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## USDave

Tamaradarann 

You have been doing a great job with this thread. I only started another to add to the momentum. I know some choose to compare the merits of other timeshares but I bought HGVC for the benefits it had, not to be changed. 

So folks whether it is this thread or mine it is the same goal to get HGVC to rethink. 

I would urge you all to let us know when you have sent your comments to HGVC to keep the momentum after all the silent majority don't often get companies to reconsider.


----------



## Tamaradarann

*I Welcome as much involvement as Possible*



USDave said:


> Tamaradarann
> 
> You have been doing a great job with this thread. I only started another to add to the momentum. I know some choose to compare the merits of other timeshares but I bought HGVC for the benefits it had, not to be changed.
> 
> So folks whether it is this thread or mine it is the same goal to get HGVC to rethink.
> 
> I would urge you all to let us know when you have sent your comments to HGVC to keep the momentum after all the silent majority don't often get companies to reconsider.



Thank you Dave for your kind thoughts.  I have no problem with another thread or other thoughts that express negativity on the great rise in the Open Season Rates.  

One reason that I brought up the issue of the derivation of the Open Season availability is that I believe that HGVC is being ingenuous in its explanation of the reasons for raising Open Season rates when it says that the Open Season Availability is manly from deposits that members made to get Partner Perks.  I have challenged HGVC about this issue and am waiting for a reply.


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## bogey21

Tamaradarann said:


> HGVC has reduced our benefits and we need to complain and request that they modify their initial plan to be more owner/member friendly.



*Good Luck!*

George


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## GeorgeJ.

Jason245 said:


> I think this is the primary disconnect you and I are having.
> 
> my understanding of HGVC is that there is no "owner/member" reserved inventory. It is an exchange system with a giant pile of points. As soon as you enroll and want to use anything other than your deeded week, you are using an exchange with multiple parties owning points (HGVC being the developer of thousands of time intervals, the owner of the exchange, and the one who purchases points from people to provide club perks is the largest individual point owner).
> 
> I guess the question that we need to clarify, is do you view HGVC as an owner and participant on the exchange or simply the entity that facilitates exchanges?
> 
> 
> 
> If you view them as only a facilitator, then I fully understand your frustration.
> 
> The reality is very different, HGVC is not a facilitator, they are a participant, but a participant who ties their own hands by not reserving "hot weeks" and always willing to give up one of their own reservations for a points reservation by another member.  By that same token, they attempt to monetize whatever they have left over as best they can by renting rooms out to other members or renting them out to third parties.
> 
> Now put yourself in HGVC shoes
> If you pay MF of $1,000/year on your week, would you be willing to rent it to a friend for $700?
> 
> Should Hilton rent out these room to members at a loss? Breakeven? or a small profit?
> 
> HGVC is currently renting out the rooms to members at a loss, and you are frustrated that they are not willing to continue to absorb those loses.
> 
> If HGVC raised prices by $1, you would be mad.
> If HGVC raised prices to break even, you would be mad.
> If HGVC raised price to break even + a small profit, you would be mad.
> 
> You are rightfully mad that HGVC is making sound business decisions that determent you to the benefit of the owners of Hilton (who will now lose less money on the open season).
> 
> I have a whole list of price items that make me mad. Airlines no longer give food, almost all of them charge to check bags, pretty soon I will have to pump quarters into the john door to take a leak in privacy onboard, and for some reason the guy sitting next to me paid 10-20% less.
> 
> My cell phone company now wants me to "finance" a new cell phone instead of giving me a 2 year contract and a discounted phone price.
> 
> I used to get more juice in my carton, more cereal in my box, more ice cream in my container,  and more toilet paper in a packet, and they kept the prices the same.  When they made those decisions, companies used the excuse that expenses had gone up because of gas prices, but now that prices have dropped, I don't see the size of my packages increasing to old levels or the prices of my groceries going down.
> 
> There is a reprieve for 3 months in which HGVC will more publically start discussing the changes to the open season program rather than sneaking it in like the less juice in the carton, but in the scheme of things, that is meaningless.  I would be much happier if HGVC came up with a transparent way that open season was calculated and instead of annually changing the rates or coming up with confusing ranges, have a solid meathodology that we can all understand and that stays consistent over time (E.G., it rises with CPI, or is the publically available rental rate - X percent)



Jason, why is it that you think that HGVC is renting out units in Open Season to members at a loss? And keep in mind that part of that inventory they're using is member inventory that is not reserved and their cost for that is zero. 

I was going to use Open Season a year ago for a 1-bedroom in Las Vegas during midweek where I believe the Open Season rate would have been $100 per night. I happened to check hilton.com and found that the general public could book a $79 rate. In that particular case, the regular rate was under the member Open Season rate. I don't believe they were losing money on either of them. 

I regularly am finding rates on Hilton.com that beat even the Open Season rates. When the new ones go into effect (unless they make changes to what what originally proposed), my feeling is that Hilcon.com will consistently beat Open Season rates..


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## piyooshj

> I regularly am finding rates on Hilton.com that beat even the Open Season rates. When the new ones go into effect (unless they make changes to what what originally proposed), my feeling is that Hilcon.com will consistently beat Open Season rates..



Wow, next time I book OS will check Hilton.com. While this is good insight, Vegas is an aberration, since given the competition there accommodation is really cheap hence Hilton.com is competitive if they want any business at all. OS for vegas with the new pricing should be made 50% to provide a value. 

In general moral of the story here is all of us are already sucked into the system so keep squeezing the last drop out of the lemon.


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## Jason245

GeorgeJ. said:


> Jason, why is it that you think that HGVC is renting out units in Open Season to members at a loss? And keep in mind that part of that inventory they're using is member inventory that is not reserved and their cost for that is zero.
> 
> I was going to use Open Season a year ago for a 1-bedroom in Las Vegas during midweek where I believe the Open Season rate would have been $100 per night. I happened to check hilton.com and found that the general public could book a $79 rate. In that particular case, the regular rate was under the member Open Season rate. I don't believe they were losing money on either of them.
> 
> I regularly am finding rates on Hilton.com that beat even the Open Season rates. When the new ones go into effect (unless they make changes to what what originally proposed), my feeling is that Hilcon.com will consistently beat Open Season rates..




Hotels regularly book rooms to customers at a loss in order to mitigate costs of low occupancy. 

As for "why do i think they are renting them at a loss".

They are paying MF on inventory they own (which is that "slack" in the system that allows them to issue 20k bonus points to new buyers). Whenever you allow your week to go unused, it is member inventory that they are technically profiting on (zero cost). If you should instead borrow points or push points from a future you, you are using their inventory (since it is a week that they didn't have allocated to you) and costing them the ability to rent/sell those points during the year you use it. .  

To take this a step further, If they pay $1000 in MF  for a week with 7000 points, and they have 50-70% occupancy on that  week (don't forget that open season is usually most prevelant during "off season"), then they need to rent that room out for a minimum of $200-$300 a night in order to break even. (generate $1k). 

If they rent points from owners (club perks) then they are getting the same points for $700. If they get more points costing them $700 instead of costing them $1k, they can rent out the rooms for less and still break even ($140-$240 ish room rate based on the same 50-70% occupancy)

Generally owners don't let the vast majority their points just expire (pay a MF and don't use the unit or pay to rescue the points) so I am a little confused as to where you are comming from. 

I wrote a long post on the way that points and money movement works (from everything I have been able to read) and am a little confused as to where  this "owners pay the MF and HGVC is paying nothing to use weeks that they are renting" logic comes from.


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## piyooshj

Jason245 said:


> I wrote a long post on the way that points and money movement works (from everything I have been able to read) and am a little confused as to where  this "owners pay the MF and HGVC is paying nothing to use weeks that they are renting" logic comes from.



I think the above would only be equivalent to owners paying MF but letting their points expire unused. Not sure how Hilton optimizes on this.


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## Talent312

piyooshj said:


> Wow, next time I book OS will check Hilton.com.



A HGV- CSR actually suggested this to a member, particularly for reservations in advance of the 30-day OS window. The "hotel" reservation can be cancelled later, if OS happens to provide a better deal. -- _From a thread long-ago._


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## GeorgeJ.

piyooshj said:


> I think the above would only be equivalent to owners paying MF but letting their points expire unused. Not sure how Hilton optimizes on this.



If HGVC is renting a unit during Open Season that came from owner inventory (time not used by owners but points just forfeited) and keeping the income and turning none over to the HOA for that property, then their cost for the unit is zero. (I'm actually answering Jason's question, but the quote from him above didn't print)

My feeling also is that any profit from the on-site stores should be shared with the HOA for each location. If HGVC were not managing the property, chances are real good that the profits would not go to the management company; as far as I can tell from the budget at Flamingo, HGVC keeps the profits from store, pool bar, etc. Does that keep management fees lower? I doubt it.


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## Jason245

GeorgeJ. said:


> If HGVC is renting a unit during Open Season that came from owner inventory (time not used by owners but points just forfeited) and keeping the income and turning none over to the HOA for that property, then their cost for the unit is zero. (I'm actually answering Jason's question, but the quote from him above didn't print)
> 
> My feeling also is that any profit from the on-site stores should be shared with the HOA for each location. If HGVC were not managing the property, chances are real good that the profits would not go to the management company; as far as I can tell from the budget at Flamingo, HGVC keeps the profits from store, pool bar, etc. Does that keep management fees lower? I doubt it.



Generally, on site ammeneties (restaurants etc) are leased to others to manage them. If they are generating profits and no revenue related to them is being received by the HOA even though the services are being provided on common area, then that is something that should be brought up to the HOA. 

It is possible that it is being received by the HOA and being included in a line called "other revenue".


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## Tamaradarann

*Open Season Availability not Reserved During Club Season*

Jason, this is a response to this part of your last post:

I wrote a long post on the way that points and money movement works (from everything I have been able to read) and am a little confused as to where this "owners pay the MF and HGVC is paying nothing to use weeks that they are renting" logic comes from.
Jason245 is offline  Report Post  	

Jason and some others seem not to recognize, and emphasize in their comments if they do recognize, that HGVC is renting out inventory during Open Season that was not reserved during the Club Reservation period.  Property Owners paid the maintenance on that inventory that is why it was available to all HGVC owner/members during the Club Reservation Period.  There is no cost to HGVC for that inventory.  I just did a study on the inventory at the Honolulu and South Beach Resorts last night and the only inventory that HGVC is making available during Open Season at this time is the same inventory that is available during the Club Reservation Period.  Therefore, that inventory is our owner/members inventory that was just not reserved by owner/members using their points during the club reservation period, not inventory that was made available from points that owner/members deposited for Perks which was HGVC first excuse for raising Open Season Rates.  That inventory should be available to owner/club members at the old/current lower open season rates.  It is quite interesting that Honolulu was the main area that the opens season rates were going to be raised January 1, 2015 and that inventory is all unreserved Club Reservation Period inventory, but HGVC was trying to say it was primarily from owner/members depositing their points for Perks.


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## GeorgeJ.

Tamaradarann said:


> Jason, this is a response to this part of your last post:
> 
> I wrote a long post on the way that points and money movement works (from everything I have been able to read) and am a little confused as to where this "owners pay the MF and HGVC is paying nothing to use weeks that they are renting" logic comes from.
> Jason245 is offline  Report Post
> 
> Jason and some others seem not to recognize, and emphasize in their comments if they do recognize, that HGVC is renting out inventory during Open Season that was not reserved during the Club Reservation period.  Property Owners paid the maintenance on that inventory that is why it was available to all HGVC owner/members during the Club Reservation Period.  There is no cost to HGVC for that inventory.  I just did a study on the inventory at the Honolulu and South Beach Resorts last night and the only inventory that HGVC is making available during Open Season at this time is the same inventory that is available during the Club Reservation Period.  Therefore, that inventory is our owner/members inventory that was just not reserved by owner/members using their points during the club reservation period, not inventory that was made available from points that owner/members deposited for Perks which was HGVC first excuse for raising Open Season Rates.  That inventory should be available to owner/club members at the old/current lower open season rates.  It is quite interesting that Honolulu was the main area that the opens season rates were going to be raised January 1, 2015 and that inventory is all unreserved Club Reservation Period inventory, but HGVC was trying to say it was primarily from owner/members depositing their points for Perks.



Tamaradarann, I believe the same as you as to where most or all of the Open Season inventory is coming from...it's unused member inventory that was not earlier reserved. Inventory that HGVC members paid the maint fees on -- not HGVC owned weeks. 

Personally, my feeling is that the inventory that HGVC takes out when a member trades in points for "perks" goes directly onto hilton.com. Until they prove otherwise to owners, I'm going to continue to believe that this is how the system works. I also believe that inventory from HGVC owned weeks goes onto hilton.com or is used to house potential buyers, and does NOT go into Open Season inventory (unless they have a huge excess and they're concerned about it going unused and want the $$ from Open Season use on it)

The original Open Season system worked fine for almost 20 years; why do they need to jack up the rates even higher now than they have over the past few years? My feeling is greed. They did not lose any money on the $60-80-100 rates since they paid nothing for that inventory. Raising the rates even further now says greed to me. If not, open up the books and give us an explanation.


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## Jason245

Tamaradarann said:


> Jason, this is a response to this part of your last post:
> 
> I wrote a long post on the way that points and money movement works (from everything I have been able to read) and am a little confused as to where this "owners pay the MF and HGVC is paying nothing to use weeks that they are renting" logic comes from.
> Jason245 is offline  Report Post
> 
> Jason and some others seem not to recognize, and emphasize in their comments if they do recognize, that HGVC is renting out inventory during Open Season that was not reserved during the Club Reservation period.  Property Owners paid the maintenance on that inventory that is why it was available to all HGVC owner/members during the Club Reservation Period.  There is no cost to HGVC for that inventory.  I just did a study on the inventory at the Honolulu and South Beach Resorts last night and the only inventory that HGVC is making available during Open Season at this time is the same inventory that is available during the Club Reservation Period.  Therefore, that inventory is our owner/members inventory that was just not reserved by owner/members using their points during the club reservation period, not inventory that was made available from points that owner/members deposited for Perks which was HGVC first excuse for raising Open Season Rates.  That inventory should be available to owner/club members at the old/current lower open season rates.  It is quite interesting that Honolulu was the main area that the opens season rates were going to be raised January 1, 2015 and that inventory is all unreserved Club Reservation Period inventory, but HGVC was trying to say it was primarily from owner/members depositing their points for Perks.



So, Which weeks are the ones that HGVC is paying the MF for?

Their answer (the one you keep trying to hang your hat on) about it comming from owner/members depositing points in club perks is BS. If it wasn't BS, and hilton was acting like a rental business and actually reserving weeks themselves for rentals, we the "human" owners would not be able to reserve peek weeks (unless they were deeded to us), as HGVC would reserve them with their points and start renting them out for significant profit (eg. New years eve in NY, The best months in Hawaii, XMAS in Florida, ETC...).


----------



## GeorgeJ.

Jason245 said:


> Hotels regularly book rooms to customers at a loss in order to mitigate costs of low occupancy.
> 
> As for "why do i think they are renting them at a loss".
> 
> They are paying MF on inventory they own (which is that "slack" in the system that allows them to issue 20k bonus points to new buyers). Whenever you allow your week to go unused, it is member inventory that they are technically profiting on (zero cost). If you should instead borrow points or push points from a future you, you are using their inventory (since it is a week that they didn't have allocated to you) and costing them the ability to rent/sell those points during the year you use it. .
> 
> To take this a step further, If they pay $1000 in MF  for a week with 7000 points, and they have 50-70% occupancy on that  week (don't forget that open season is usually most prevelant during "off season"), then they need to rent that room out for a minimum of $200-$300 a night in order to break even. (generate $1k).
> 
> If they rent points from owners (club perks) then they are getting the same points for $700. If they get more points costing them $700 instead of costing them $1k, they can rent out the rooms for less and still break even ($140-$240 ish room rate based on the same 50-70% occupancy)
> 
> Generally owners don't let the vast majority their points just expire (pay a MF and don't use the unit or pay to rescue the points) so I am a little confused as to where you are comming from.
> 
> I wrote a long post on the way that points and money movement works (from everything I have been able to read) and am a little confused as to where  this "owners pay the MF and HGVC is paying nothing to use weeks that they are renting" logic comes from.



I think if we saw the real numbers of owners who paid maintenance fees and didn't use any of their points (and didn't rescue them into the following year) or had points left over and just let them go, we'd be surprised. My feeling is that at least 20% of a year's points just go to waste. If that is true, would your thinking be different?

We see posts on TUG where owners have paid maintenance fees for years and never used their timeshare at all and want to dump them -- this INCLUDES HGVC owners. So why is it so hard to believe that points go to waste each year? THAT was the explanation of how Open Season works when we questioned why there would be left-over time that could be rented cheap each year way back in 1996 when we purchased our HGVC week. The explanation WAS NOT that there would be HGVC-owned weeks deposited into Open Season. It was that the expectation would that a certain % of weeks would not be used each year.


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## GeorgeJ.

Jason245 said:


> So, Which weeks are the ones that HGVC is paying the MF for?
> 
> Their answer (the one you keep trying to hang your hat on) about it comming from owner/members depositing points in club perks is BS. If it wasn't BS, and hilton was acting like a rental business and actually reserving weeks themselves for rentals, we the "human" owners would not be able to reserve peek weeks (unless they were deeded to us), as HGVC would reserve them with their points and start renting them out for significant profit (eg. New years eve in NY, The best months in Hawaii, XMAS in Florida, ETC...).



HGVC is paying the maintenance fees on unsold weeks that they still hold. You really think they reserve crappy weeks with those? Do you really think that they don't reserve any peak weeks and that everyone who wants one can easily reserve it?

Back in 1996, the very peak weeks were New Years, Xmas and Comdex week. NY and Xmas were deeded weeks but Comdex week was up for grabs. I can tell you that on the morning when Comdex week was available to be booked under Home Season, all 200 reservations were gone within the first hour or two. If you didn't hit the phone first thing in the morning you were shut out. Since this was a "Home Week" reservation, only Silver weeks owners could reserve it. Originally, Flamingo had Platinum-Gold-Silver & Bronze weeks. Platinum was only the fixed Xmas and NY weeks. You would see studio units at Flamingo on Hilton.com for something like $600-900 per night for Comdex week. So, does HGVC reserve peak weeks to rent on Hilton.com? You're damn straight they do.


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## piyooshj

GeorgeJ. said:


> Originally, Flamingo had Platinum-Gold-Silver & Bronze weeks. Platinum was only the fixed Xmas and NY weeks. You would see studio units at Flamingo on Hilton.com for something like $600-900 per night for Comdex week. So, does HGVC reserve peak weeks to rent on Hilton.com? You're damn straight they do.



I see this must be the reason I am in home week and own flamingo. I see lot of availability for Studio, 1b, and 2b from Jan until Oct. But for Nov and Dec ZERO availability for S/1B/2B. Looks like they have all be snatched to be resold at Hilton.com


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## Jason245

GeorgeJ. said:


> HGVC is paying the maintenance fees on unsold weeks that they still hold. You really think they reserve crappy weeks with those? Do you really think that they don't reserve any peak weeks and that everyone who wants one can easily reserve it?
> 
> Back in 1996, the very peak weeks were New Years, Xmas and Comdex week. NY and Xmas were deeded weeks but Comdex week was up for grabs. I can tell you that on the morning when Comdex week was available to be booked under Home Season, all 200 reservations were gone within the first hour or two. If you didn't hit the phone first thing in the morning you were shut out. Since this was a "Home Week" reservation, only Silver weeks owners could reserve it. Originally, Flamingo had Platinum-Gold-Silver & Bronze weeks. Platinum was only the fixed Xmas and NY weeks. You would see studio units at Flamingo on Hilton.com for something like $600-900 per night for Comdex week. So, does HGVC reserve peak weeks to rent on Hilton.com? You're damn straight they do.



So then why is it that I can not reserve (through hilton.com) a room at seaworld in April right now (don't tell me that the resort is full to the brim)?

Didn't RCI get sued for holding back weeks (or the perception there of). 

I am sorry, but unless you can show me some evidence that HGVC is doing that (try to book at a HGVC for 3-4 months from now on hilton.com), I am going to call BS.


----------



## Jason245

piyooshj said:


> I see this must be the reason I am in home week and own flamingo. I see lot of availability for Studio, 1b, and 2b from Jan until Oct. But for Nov and Dec ZERO availability for S/1B/2B. Looks like they have all be snatched to be resold at Hilton.com



Are you being sarcastic or serious?

Go look on Hilton.com. I don't see any for rent there for XMAS week (and I can't imagine people that book on hilton.com would book 1 year in advance).

the more likely answer is that either 1. There is a problem with the reservation system (call hilton and find out).
2. A number of actual owners (just like you) are using the timeshare for homeweek in excess of capacity for this short interval of time.


----------



## Tamaradarann

*Weeks that are HGVC is paying MF for*



Jason245 said:


> So, Which weeks are the ones that HGVC is paying the MF for?
> 
> Their answer (the one you keep trying to hang your hat on) about it comming from owner/members depositing points in club perks is BS. If it wasn't BS, and hilton was acting like a rental business and actually reserving weeks themselves for rentals, we the "human" owners would not be able to reserve peek weeks (unless they were deeded to us), as HGVC would reserve them with their points and start renting them out for significant profit (eg. New years eve in NY, The best months in Hawaii, XMAS in Florida, ETC...).



Jason, first of all, I didn't say that HGVC was just paying for the weeks that owner/member deposited their points to get club perks.  HGVC said that that was the primary derivation of Open Seaon Availability.  What I did say was the HGVC should be able to put on Hilton.com and charge whatever they want for points/nights that owner/members deposit for Hilton Honors Conversions, and club perks as well as any unsold inventory.  

However, you do bring up a good point that I don't want to bring into this thread about Open Season Rates since it is off topic.  Please open a new thread if you want to persue it any further.  How does HGVC decide what weeks to reserve with the points that they own versus what they make available for Club Reservation Inventory?


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## Jason245

Tamaradarann said:


> HGVC said that that was the primary derivation of Open Seaon Availability.



The above statement is false. HGVC may have said it, and trained their sales people and Customer service agents to speak using those words, but mathmatically, the amount of open season availability does not compute or the amount of people taking club perks is astronomical. 

Just look at the open season availability in Orlando.... I call BS on HGVC for that statement.


----------



## GeorgeJ.

Jason245 said:


> So then why is it that I can not reserve (through hilton.com) a room at seaworld in April right now (don't tell me that the resort is full to the brim)?
> 
> Didn't RCI get sued for holding back weeks (or the perception there of).
> 
> I am sorry, but unless you can show me some evidence that HGVC is doing that (try to book at a HGVC for 3-4 months from now on hilton.com), I am going to call BS.



I'm not having any problem finding units at Seaworld HGVC through Hilton.com in April. First random dates I put in (April 14-17) shows studios available for $109, 1-br for $139, 2-br $239, and 3-br $339. 

Seaworld is long since sold-out so there shouldn't be any developer owned units there unless they hold a few by ROFR. 

So maybe I should call BS on this one. What dates were you trying for? You said "April" and I found dates in April (first ones that I tried). Would this not imply that HGVC is reserving good weeks for themselves and not leaving them all for members? Just because RCI was sued but HGVC hasn't had a class action suit yet doesn't mean that it couldn't happen. I'd like for them to open up the books and the system to owners and let us see exactly what is going on. If someone turns in their Silver week in Orlando for HH points, does HGVC book a silver week in Orlando to rent out? Or do they book a few nights in Honolulu with those points? We don't know, because even as owners, we're in the dark. Just like we were with RCI. HGVC has a much tighter relationship with HGVC owners since they manage our resorts. If there are shenanigans going on with Open Season (and/or bookings by HGVC in other seasons) and Hilton.com, that's a real problem for HGVC.


----------



## solonas

GeorgeJ. said:


> I can tell you that on the morning when Comdex week was available to be booked under Home Season, all 200 reservations were gone within the first hour or two. If you didn't hit the phone first thing in the morning you were shut out. Since this was a "Home Week" reservation, only Silver weeks owners could reserve it. Originally, Flamingo had Platinum-Gold-Silver & Bronze weeks. Platinum was only the fixed Xmas and NY weeks. You would see studio units at Flamingo on Hilton.com for something like $600-900 per night for Comdex week. So, does HGVC reserve peak weeks to rent on Hilton.com? You're damn straight they do.



This assumes that all of the units for that week were member owned, and therefore available for "Home Week" reservation.  If HGVC owned any of those units, they were not required to make them available for a "Home Week" reservation. Unless you tried to buy a unit during week and were told they were all sold, how do you know for sure they are sold? And do you know for certain that Hilton doesn't actually have a holding company that owns weeks just for the purpose of renting them? It is probably a good business to not sell some of the prime weeks to individuals and rent them if you are certain you can increase profit. The only way to know this would be to dig through all of the property records and and look at all of the listings for the resort, but remember that there is always a filing delay so even then you wouldn't know with certainty. 

I'm not saying that it is fair to us but we are all working on a lot of assumptions here, not hard facts. We can assume the information we were told by reps and the information we gather from the web is the truth, but in reality it is just a glimpse of how the system works. I don't image there are many people in the organization that know the full inner workings, and they almost certainly aren't customer facing or under any requirement to divulge the mechanics to those that are.  Unless you have direct access to their actual inventory in real-time, it is all just a guess. 

Having said that, you should definitely complain, not just directly to individuals, but on social media. Anything that can increase the profile and negative publicity is often more likely to affect change. It probably won't stop them from raising the price, but you don't know if you don't try. 

Personally, this has little impact on me since I've never taken advantage of this benefit. That might explain my laissez faire attitude towards this change. I also have little to no desire to travel to Hawaii which seems to be where many TUGGERs were wisely using this benefit and it is hurting the most.


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## piyooshj

Jason245 said:


> Are you being sarcastic or serious?



I'm serious. Go log into revolution and see for yourself. ZERO availability for the entire months of Nov and Dec for flamingo. I see tons of availability prior to Oct 29.


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## Jason245

GeorgeJ. said:


> I'm not having any problem finding units at Seaworld HGVC through Hilton.com in April. First random dates I put in (April 14-17) shows studios available for $109, 1-br for $139, 2-br $239, and 3-br $339.
> 
> Seaworld is long since sold-out so there shouldn't be any developer owned units there unless they hold a few by ROFR.
> 
> So maybe I should call BS on this one. What dates were you trying for? You said "April" and I found dates in April (first ones that I tried). Would this not imply that HGVC is reserving good weeks for themselves and not leaving them all for members? Just because RCI was sued but HGVC hasn't had a class action suit yet doesn't mean that it couldn't happen. I'd like for them to open up the books and the system to owners and let us see exactly what is going on. If someone turns in their Silver week in Orlando for HH points, does HGVC book a silver week in Orlando to rent out? Or do they book a few nights in Honolulu with those points? We don't know, because even as owners, we're in the dark. Just like we were with RCI. HGVC has a much tighter relationship with HGVC owners since they manage our resorts. If there are shenanigans going on with Open Season (and/or bookings by HGVC in other seasons) and Hilton.com, that's a real problem for HGVC.



I went to http://www3.hilton.com/en/hotels/fl...cations-suites-at-seaworld-ORLSWGV/index.html

And tried to book april 3 - 6 

No dice.

Just clicekd on the other dates, and I now see that it was just a fluke... I picked dates that were sold out (at random)..

now I am even more confused since the math needed to support open season that is available to us indicates that either 1. it is a mix of HGVC owned time and club perks.
2. A large chunk of weeks (and by large, I mean somewhere in the range of 10-15%) would have to be using club perks on an annual basis.  My guestimates were closer to the 3-7% range. 

I think the biggest frustration we are all having is the lack of transparancy.


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## piyooshj

Lack of transparency == something fishy


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## bogey21

GeorgeJ. said:


> The original Open Season system worked fine for almost 20 years; why do they need to jack up the rates even higher now than they have over the past few years? My feeling is greed.



Agree.  It doesn't matter who it is, RCI, Marriott, Hilton, Hyatt, etc.  At some point in time someone sees increased profitability by taking away or otherwise reducing the desirability of something originally offered to induce us to buy.  Either sell (as I did) or learn to live with it.

George


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## Tamaradarann

*Reasons they are selectively raising Open Season Rates*

They did not lose any money on the $60-80-100 rates since they paid nothing for that inventory. Raising the rates even further now says greed to me. If not, open up the books and give us an explanation.

George posted the above comment and it got me thinking about why they selectively raised the open season rates.  These thoughts came to mind:

More Income:  Hawaii is a very sought after location.  The demand is so great that they can demand higher open season rate and still sell rooms.  If they don't sell the rooms to owner/members on Open Season they can sell them on Hilton.com for a very good price.

Fill Rooms at Other Locations:  There is a lot of Inventory being unreserved in Las Vegas and Orlando.  Having an Open Season rate disparity between Hawaii; and Las Vegas and Orlando may get owner/members to purchase open season nights at the Las Vegas and Orlando locations because they have such low open season rates rather than Hawaii with high open season rates.  There are so many timeshares and hotels in Las Vegas and Orlando with vacancies that they can't raise open season rates there and be sure that they will sell the nights on Hilton.com.  

There may be other reasons that I didn't think of, however, let us not lose sight that the open season inventory that is created from inventory that was not reserved using points during the Club Reservation Period is owner/members inventory.   The Open Season rates for that inventory should not be driven by the general public market, but should be a nice benefit for us.


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## jestme

From a business standpoint, I still can't figure this out. Open Season rooms in Hawaii (where they want to raise the rates the most), is hard to come by, and the increase in revenue they could generate doing this is minimal in the larger picture. The loss in sales pitch potential, and the almost complete elimination of the benefit to 150,000 current members makes no sense. 
It cannot generate much additional revenue, as there are limited rooms available. This small additional revenue comes at a major expense of customer loyalty or satisfaction. If only 100 customers didn't upgrade or decided to spend less at the resort while they were there, those additional gains would be lost.


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## Talent312

jestme said:


> From a business standpoint, I still can't figure this out... [T]he almost complete elimination of the benefit to 150,000 current members makes no sense.



And yet... I am reminded of Aesop's fable of the goose with the golden eggs:

There was once a man who had a marvelous goose that laid golden eggs. Each and every day, without fail, the goose laid an egg that was made of solid gold. You would think the owner of the goose would consider himself very lucky, but one golden egg each day was not enough to satisfy the man. He wanted to have even more gold without waiting for the eggs!

"If the goose is able to lay these golden eggs," he said, "then the inside of the goose is probably filled with gold. I will cut open the goose and get all the gold at once!" The greedy man then grabbed an axe and cut the goose in half. Much to his surprise, the goose was just like any other goose inside; there was no gold.
.


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## USDave

[QUOTE this was on the other thread.

Here are the 2015 rates:





Note the price range now.  There is no explanation on how the ranges will be used.

Sorry had meant to add this to other thread as a reminder


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## Tamaradarann

*I Agree and Can't Figure it out either*



jestme said:


> From a business standpoint, I still can't figure this out. Open Season rooms in Hawaii (where they want to raise the rates the most), is hard to come by, and the increase in revenue they could generate doing this is minimal in the larger picture. The loss in sales pitch potential, and the almost complete elimination of the benefit to 150,000 current members makes no sense.
> It cannot generate much additional revenue, as there are limited rooms available. This small additional revenue comes at a major expense of customer loyalty or satisfaction. If only 100 customers didn't upgrade or decided to spend less at the resort while they were there, those additional gains would be lost.



I agree and can't figure it out either.  I sent a note to HGVC about the negative effect on sales.  However, let me offer this additional thought.  They started with raising the Open Season Rates in Hawaii where there was a chance that members would rent them at the higher rate but also a good chance that they could rent them on Hilton.com at an even higher rate since members weren't renting them.  The overall plan was to raise the open season rates at all the resorts during school brakes and other high occupancy periods when there was a good chance that they could rent the availability at the higher rates on Open Season and on Hilton.com.  Then owner/members would start reserving more Open Season availability in all resorts during the periods when the open season rates were low, approximately a 50% discount, so they would be able to fill more rooms during non-peak times when there is a lot of availability.


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## MelanieB

Jason245 said:


> HGVC is currently renting out the rooms to members at a loss, and you are frustrated that they are not willing to continue to absorb those loses.



I've read this entire thread, and I agree with much of what you have to say.  But this is where things break down a bit for me.

It's entirely possible that HGVC has been renting their inventory at a loss.  Or maybe not.  We don't know, because we can't see their books.  But even if they are, you cannot possibly believe that the overall _business_ has been operating at a loss.  If they have been losing money on rentals, then they must have been making that up in some other part of their business, presumably either from member fees or retail sales.  I haven't seen an offer to reduce fees in combination with the increased Open Season rates, and I rather think pigs will fly before that happens.

Also, if HGVC truly is losing money on these units, why not just say so?  "Our excess inventory is operating at a loss based on current Open Season rates.  We must address this in order to keep member fees as low as possible."  Or some other such drivel.  What they actually said was this (bolding mine):



JenMuse said:


> Hilton Grand Vacations: We thank you for your communication, and trust that the following update serves to bring further clarity to this topic:
> 
> As the vacation ownership inventory at our properties reaches a sold out status, the Open Season availability for units respectively diminishes. Open Season Rental rates remain flexible based on location, season, day of the week and demand. Beginning in 2015, some nightly rates remain similar to those of the previous year, and some *increased rates are based on the location, season or day of the week that are historically in higher demand by our Club Members.*
> 
> The intention of this update was *to offer these accommodations during the 30 day booking window at a percentage-off of what can be found on Hilton.com*, which primarily offers the inventory that HGV Owners actually give back to the Club in exchange for other benefits or Partner Perks such as cruises, RV rentals, houseboats, etc. *Previous rates were not reflective of the specific marketplace: for example, a 1-bedroom in Orlando does not equate to the same as a 1-bedroom in Honolulu.* These recent updates to the Open Season rates chart remedy such discrepancies.
> 
> We will continue to monitor the markets in which we operate HGV resorts, and offer seasonally adjusted Open Season rates in an effort to provide the most desirable offers to our Owners. While we understand this recent change may initially be frustrating, we apologize that our notification did not reach you before the Open Season window opened for January 1.



In other words: "We're raising rates because we can.  The market will bear it, therefore we will do it."  I think that this is the root of a great deal of the anger and frustration from owners.  Owners feel, rightly or wrongly, that their investment and commitment to the system entitles them to the best Open Season rates that the corporation can reasonably afford.  With this change, the corporation is basically saying "too bad for you; we don't have to if we don't want to, and we don't want to anymore".


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## Tamaradarann

*Can't buy that Open Seasons rentals are at a loss*



MelanieB said:


> I've read this entire thread, and I agree with much of what you have to say.  But this is where things break down a bit for me.
> 
> It's entirely possible that HGVC has been renting their inventory at a loss.  Or maybe not.  We don't know, because we can't see their books.  But even if they are, you cannot possibly believe that the overall _business_ has been operating at a loss.  If they have been losing money on rentals, then they must have been making that up in some other part of their business, presumably either from member fees or retail sales.  I haven't seen an offer to reduce fees in combination with the increased Open Season rates, and I rather think pigs will fly before that happens.
> 
> Also, if HGVC truly is losing money on these units, why not just say so?  "Our excess inventory is operating at a loss based on current Open Season rates.  We must address this in order to keep member fees as low as possible."  Or some other such drivel.  What they actually said was this (bolding mine):
> 
> 
> 
> In other words: "We're raising rates because we can.  The market will bear it, therefore we will do it."  I think that this is the root of a great deal of the anger and frustration from owners.  Owners feel, rightly or wrongly, that their investment and commitment to the system entitles them to the best Open Season rates that the corporation can reasonably afford.  With this change, the corporation is basically saying "too bad for you; we don't have to if we don't want to, and we don't want to anymore".



I can't buy the position that HGVC has been renting out Open Season availability at a loss.  All the inventory that HGVC obtains is either from:

the availability that owners members didn't reserve using points during the Club Reservation Period for no cost, which my study of the January period for the Hilton Hawaiian Village and HGVC South Beach revealed was the case
or 
from owner/members depositing their points into Hilton Honors or for Club Perks which we all know gets owner/members very low value for their deposit so it must be a very low cost method for HGVC obtaining Open Season Availability.


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## nlehvac

The sad part is we can't effectively "boycott." If we don't take something at the inflated OS rates, the poor management has to sell them full price to non-members.


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## bastroum

HGVC has not broken any contractual obligations. When we purchase a timeshare we enter into a legal binding contract with HGVC. As far as I see they have not broken any contractual obligations, based on the contract I signed. Other than contacting them and letting them know how you feel, your only recourse is to not use the benefit. If they don't want you staying at Marriott, Westin or Hyatt properties (and allowing those companies to pitch you their product) they'll price their product to get you to come back.


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## USDave

Hi Bastroum,

So you believe HGVC haven't broken any contractual obligations. I am actually not convinced on that point either way though I believe they have broken our trust as members to not make unreasonable decisions without justification.

They have failed to give a open, honest snd transparent explanation. They did not write to members to notify them of the change or publish this online. 

This is a Heist whatever way it is sliced. I accuse HGVC of deliberately seeking to hide information to its members.

The Lone Ranger wore a mask. HGVC is even more brazen.


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## bastroum

USDave said:


> Hi Bastroum,
> 
> So you believe HGVC haven't broken any contractual obligations. I am actually not convinced on that point either way though I believe they have broken our trust as members to not make unreasonable decisions without justification.
> 
> They have failed to give a open, honest snd transparent explanation. They did not write to members to notify them of the change or publish this online.
> 
> This is a Heist whatever way it is sliced. I accuse HGVC of deliberately seeking to hide information to its members.
> 
> The Lone Ranger wore a mask. HGVC is even more brazen.



I agree. 

However, it's been my experience large companies will always act this way. I don't believe they care about giving you an open, honest and transparent explanation if it's not in their best interest. As far as trust goes, I believe you can trust that they will fulfill their contractual obligations. Many people have learned the hard way, when purchasing their timeshare, that unless it's in writing it was never promised.


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## USDave

*I hear you!*

I do totally agree.

I work at a senior level in a multinational company so I see that first hand. So they will try to get away with it but I am not being naive in believing in that can change. 

I really believe it can if we apply enough pressure to HGVC snd it starts to get a groundswell of opinion and momentum which it has - than there is a distinct chance it will. 

Come on join the journey we can change it or give a damn good go!


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## chriskre

USDave said:


> Come on join the journey we can change it or give a damn good go!



Some fights have already been fought in the TS world and it never ends well for owners.  
The best way to fight things is to look out for your own interests and if that just happens 
to be that I never use OS in Orlando again and have to finally use those II AC's then that is what I will do.  

Marriott, Wyndham, DVC, Starwood and Bluegreen have just as nice digs and actually costs me less than using OS. 
It was easier to use OS, but it wasn't cheaper.  So I gotta plan a little more.  Not a big deal. 

Being an educated TUG member has it's privileges.


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## jestme

chriskre said:


> Marriott, Wyndham, DVC, Starwood and Bluegreen have just as nice digs and actually costs me less than using OS.


I am at a Weston in Maui right now. Normally, I would be at the HHV for these 8 days, but when this latest Open Season nonsense started, I booked something other than HGVC privately. Westin is getting my food and beverage money as well, AND I get SPG points, where I don't get HHonors points for the same thing at HGVC stays. I will be using my home week next week at the HHV, but not spending a dime at the shops, restaurants or bars there. I may go to an owners update as well. Apparently, you HAVE to be there 90 minutes. You cannot get out early. They may regret that rule with a very boisterous complainer...
BTW, you are right, they do have nice digs here. I drove over to where the supposed new HGVC will be on Maui someday. It's an abandoned resort / overgrown field, on the wrong side of the road to get to the ocean, and it is really a bay, not open ocean. Maybe someone has a dream, but I can't see it.


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## nlehvac

jestme said:


> I am at a Weston in Maui right now. Normally, I would be at the HHV for these 8 days, but when this latest Open Season nonsense started, I booked something other than HGVC privately. Westin is getting my food and beverage money as well, AND I get SPG points, where I don't get HHonors points for the same thing at HGVC stays. .



If possible, maybe this should be posted at the Facebook site?


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## GeorgeJ.

chriskre said:


> Some fights have already been fought in the TS world and it never ends well for owners.
> The best way to fight things is to look out for your own interests and if that just happens
> to be that I never use OS in Orlando again and have to finally use those II AC's then that is what I will do.
> 
> Marriott, Wyndham, DVC, Starwood and Bluegreen have just as nice digs and actually costs me less than using OS.
> It was easier to use OS, but it wasn't cheaper.  So I gotta plan a little more.  Not a big deal.
> 
> Being an educated TUG member has it's privileges.



One fight that ended well for timeshare owners was the RCI lawsuit. Rather than just one trade for our RCI property, I now get as many as 5 exchanges per year from just one property since it typically gets 40+ points when I deposit a week. And they kind of opened the books to RCI members since we don't have to guess now how much a week is worth. The RCI class-action suit didn't bring $$ to the members, but I think it was a win for the members..


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## JenMuse

jestme said:


> . . . Apparently, you HAVE to be there 90 minutes. You cannot get out early. They may regret that rule with a very boisterous complainer...



Not necessarily. I went to one in March at HHV and was in and out in less than 30 minutes. Fairly painless once I said no a bunch of times and said the magic words re-sale and TUG.

Granted I didn't know to complain about these new OS rates....grrrr.


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## Intheknow

Looks like HGV listened to us!  Great News found on HGV Facebook Page!

2015 promises to be a great year to be in the Club, with a world of vacation possibilities awaiting discovery!  Visit ClubTraveler.com for the latest Club news, Member memories and travel inspirations.  Look for announcements of new resorts and programs on the horizon, and enjoy all your favorite destinations and perks too (notably, the rates for the popular last-minute Open Season reservation privilege for Club Members will remain unchanged for the rest of 2015!).  Happy Vacationing to All!


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## nlehvac

Well, whaddaya know!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wonder how much they'll include us in discussions about 2016 !


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## USDave

*Great news*

Oh yeah! oh yeah!
Looks like it worked. Well done to HGVC for listening. Thank you Barbie Rinks for showing that you care about member opinion. Lots of organisation would try to continue to get away with it. 

But well done to everyone who spoke up and did not sit in the stand in the stands it is down to you that they reversed the decision.

Tamaradarann deserves credit for flagging this issue and I was was determined to get something done about it rather than just moaning. So we did it. We gave this a sense of purpose and MADE it happen.

WE TOOK ACTION WE STOOD TOGETHER AND WE WERE HEARD!

You were part of a movement that worked and achieved its goal. There were a few doubters along the way saying "if you aren't happy sell up or big companies will steam roll you so don't bother trying" We tried and succeeded! So don't let it be said it can't be done with a combined will, most things are achievable. 

I know one contributor said that Timeshare owners very rarely get successes against the mighty organisations but Hilton listened so we can add this to the list.


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## nlehvac

Yes ... those who wrote Barbie (and maybe the rest of us who only indicated displeasure via phone?) should send an email of "thanks for listening to us." So please repost her addy so we don't have to hunt.

Would it be reasonable to suggest they perhaps open a discussion here? Explain where the availability REALly comes from; if (and then how) higher OS rates would help hold down MFs [as in they could chip in some %age directly to the resorts]; was there a reason other than filling investor pockets for the now dead system?; a standard X% off lowest rack rate more reasonable (assuming the % off is)?, and the like. Just why higher demand spots/times should lead to higher rates (rather than the current first-come-first-serve and procrastinators lose which fills all those spots already - higher prices certainly wouldn't fill them more!).


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## Tamaradarann

*Very Pleased with this decision but What in 2016?*

I am very pleased with this decision and sent a note to Barbara Rinks about it.  However, I also showed my concern about what the rates will be in 2016.  I still remain firm that availability that is generated from inventory that was not reserved during Club Season should remain available to owner/members at the current lower rates.  It is HGVC timeshare owners inventory that should be rented to HGVC timeshare owners at the lowest rate possible, not to generate additional income for Hilton.


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## sluggohill

I guess that demonstrates the power of collective action using social media - I confess to being pessimistic about whether they would listen.  Well done to all who posted, tweeted and emailed.


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## dontstop56

*Can you book Open season for Friends?*

Can you make a Open season Reservation for a friend or Non HGVC Member?


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## PigsDad

dontstop56 said:


> Can you make a Open season Reservation for a friend or Non HGVC Member?


No.  Per HGVC rules, Open Season reservations can only be used by the HGVC member who made them.  And yes, they *do *check IDs when you check in.

Kurt


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